Talk:Chinese numerals

message: For someone like me who wants to know about how numbers are written in Mandarin Chinese, the information about how they are represented in Unicode is really irrelevant. Could the statements like "such-and-such was an error which was corrected in the next version of the standard" be separated out into a different section? How numbers are represented in a language and how that language then is represented in a computerized form are two different subjects - related enough to be in the same article, yes, but not mixed together, I think. Evan Donovan 03:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Separate info on Unicode representation into separate section?

message: The translations for numbers such as 1,200 can be both yi qian liang bai (一千兩百) or yi qian er bai (一千二百). Although this is addressed in the article, too many veriations exist in various dialects as to render the simple rules stated rather inadaquate. Maybe the way to do this is to remove all instances of 2 in the examples of forming Chinese numbers except in the instances where we are illustrating the liang (兩) versus er (二) idea? --Sjschen 19:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Alternatively, this point can be noted somewhere early on the page, and the entire page refers to Standard Mandarin (and maybe Standard Cantonese).  After all, you wouldn't want to include every dialect here... Neonumbers 02:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I cannot speak for other dialects.  However, in Mandarin and Cantonese, the use of liang and er are very well defined and they are consistent across the two dialects.  Perhaps the same rule applies to all Chinese dialects too.  The description in the article is pretty accurate regarding its general use.  You may be able to find some exceptions, but you should keep those as what they are: exceptions, not the rule.  The word liang is used only when the number is used as a counter (e.g. 兩個人).  The word er is used as a number or an ordinal (e.g. 二號, 第二) and in certain situations, used in the sense of double, couple or duet etc.  (e.g  二人世界, 二重奏).  However, you seldom see these two words used interchangably because they are not the same.  For example, you'll never see 二個人, 兩號, 第兩.  The only situation these two are interchangable is when they are used in the sense of double, duet with the same meaning as 雙. e.g. 雙人世界, 兩人世界, 二人世界 etc.  Kowloonese 22:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In Taiwanese, the rules specified don't work. >200 and 2  all use 兩 (Min: Neng) while 20 and 12 use 二 (Min:li). This makes me wonder if differing rules exist out there for different Chinese dialects, which is why I brought up the idea of eleminating 2s from examples in the article while creating a better section to deal with the issue. --Sjschen 00:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  I tend to think of liang as a word meaning "pair", as such it is not a number. The english equivalent would be discussion of the word "pair" or "dozen" in a wikipedia article about numbers, inappropriate in my opinion. Kotika98 (talk) 05:45, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  The rule is only clear when someone say single digit 2 as in two and nothing else, then 二 is the proper choice. Even then depend on dialect or local slang, 兩 can be perfectly understandable as "two" by a visitor. But when "2" is in combination meaning 2 of something, then its most probably interchangeable. As a native you may find it odd but at the same time understandable and acceptable when speak to certain origin of the speaker and preference. Taking example above 二號 (number two as in "room number two") and 第二(number two as in "room number two or second room from the right hand side". The other use case 兩人/二人 (two person), and moving two complex syntax 雙人世界, 兩人世界, 二人世界 (two person world, usually means couple) works perfectly find for every native speaker. Then you have specific noun that must use one form, example 二重奏 (duet). As a native Cantonese I also find Kowloonese's explanation not representative and contradicting. Example 二個人 does not work because it is a special case. Consider 二 pair with other collective counter: 二家, 兩家 both mean two families or two shops/businesses. Finally back to his final example 二號 vs 兩號. These two can and cannot be interchanged. One stand-alone used and not interchangeable: 二號 number two, 兩號 two numbers. Context dependent scenario 1: 跳了二號 （either means skipped number two or skipped two numbers)，跳了兩號 (mean skipped two numbers only). Context dependent scenario 2: 二號人物 （as in the number two of the organisation)， 兩號人物 (two kinds of people). This differential comes from the meaning 號 is use as either positioning or type as required by context. As demonstrated, the rule is definitely not clear cut and certainly double, duet or with the something in pairs are not the determining factor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.192.209.176 (talk) 15:37, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: The numeral 2 (liang and er) (两 and 二) 

message: Though the name HangZhou numerals implies they originate from HangZhou, China, these numerals are not used in HangZhou anymore.  I asked a 30 year old lady who grew up in HangZhou, she had not seen these numerals in her life.  Her mother recognizes what they are.  However, she had not seen them in use during her 40 years in Hangzhou.  She remembered seeing these numerals in Malaysia over 50 years ago.
Several of my friends from Taiwan, who are in the 40s, had not seen these numerals ever.
On the other hand, the Chinese herbal doctor I used in San Jose, CA wrote me a herbal prescription using these Hangzhou numerals.  It is evident that these numerals are still in use in some Cantonese communities in the US.  But with just a small sample, it is hard to determine how extinct it has become.
Kowloonese 11:05, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: The Unicode standard corrected the name to SuZhou numerals since the above question was posted.  That explains a lot.  Kowloonese 03:23, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hangzhou 

message: Aren't hao2 and li2 reverse? --Anon3
:I suggest someone with good Chinese language backgroud to research deeply into this topic.  When China turned to the SI metric system, such as milligram, centimeter, millimeter etc., they use hao and li as a qualifying adjective in front of the unit.  For example, centimeter is called li mi and millimeter is called hao mi etc.  However, I really doubt if those who picked these translations really researched into the original usage of hao and li in Chinese measuring units.  If I remembered correctly from the books I studied a few decades ago.  Hao and li are unit for weight, not quantifiers.  When used as weighing unit, li was 10x hao.  However, when used in a SI quantifier, hao is 10x li.  Hence, I speculate those who made up the translations did it arbituarily with no knowledge of the traditional usage of these two characters.  Of course, all language evolves based on contempory usage, so even a misusge will turn into standard.
:If you look up an old Chinese dictionary, you may find hao & li very interesting because they have different value depending on context.  Li = One thousandth of a Chinese 尺 foot. Li = One hundredth of a 畝 [mu3]. Li = One thousandth of a 兩 [liang3] or tael. Li = (Rate of interest) one tenth of one percent (i.e. one thousandth of a unit).  Hao = a centigram in weight or one-hundredth of a centimeter in length.
::You will see a consistency if you look closer.  The reason that li2 = 1/1000 of 尺 foot was because there is a unit name for 1/10 foot: cun4 寸. fen1 = 1/10 cun4, li2 = 1/100 cun4, hao2 = 1/1000 cun4,...  Similarly, qian2 錢 = 1/10 liang3, fen1 = 1/10 qian2, li2 = 1/100 qian2, hao2 = 1/1000 qian2,...  For small units of measure beyond the named units, the order is always fen1, li2, hao2, si1, hu1, wei1 for 1/10, 1/100, 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/100000, 1/1000000.
::Felix Wan 2004-06-26 02:32 (UTC)
::For measurement of land area, mu3 畝 is already the smallest named unit, so fen1 = 1/10 mu3, li2 = 1/100 mu3, hao2 = 1/1000 mu3,...
::For a centigram and 1/100 of a centimeter, actually the old translation was gong1hao2 公毫. When SI was first introduced to China, the people translated them by adding the prefix gong1, meaning public, to the traditional units. So, kilogram = gong1jin1, hectogram = gong1liang3, decagram = gong1qian2, gram = gong1fen1, decigram = gong1li2, centigram = gong1hao2. Similarly, meter = gong1chi3, decimeter = gong1cun4, centimeter = gong1fen1, millimeter = gong1li2, and 1/100 of a centimeter is naturally gonghao2.
::For interest rates, there is some complication.  If we are talking about annual rates, 1 fen1 = 10% of the principal, 1 li2 = 1%, 1 hao2 = 0.1%, although in modern Chinese, we usually use li2 exclusively.  For monthly rates, 1 fen1 = 1% per month, i.e. 12% per year for simple interest. 1 li2 = 0.1%.  For daily rates, 1 fen1 = 0.1% per day, i.e. about 3.65% per year for simple interest. 1 li2 = 0.01%.
::In conclusion, although li2 and hao2 have many meanings depending on the situation, the order is consistent within each single system: fen1 = 10 li2, li2 = 10 hao2.
::Felix Wan 2004-07-08 03:12 (UTC)
:Another example is zhao discussed in the section above.  PRC defined zhao differently from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong.  I am wondering if this kind of screw-ups happened during the Cultural Revolution which was an era when knowledgable scholars went to jail and uneducated ideots took over adminstrations and standards committees.
::See my explanation under zhao4. (I have moved my old answer, dated 2004-06-26, to where it should belong, and made some changes.)
::Felix Wan 2004-07-08 02:30 (UTC)
:Did you know that "an apron" used to be "a napron"?  Of course current usage wins.  But it would be an interesting fact to mention in dictionary or encycopedia to help future scholar to understand the switch over and why.
:Kowloonese 05:33, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hao/li

message: I reverted a change regarding the Su Zhou numeral 9.
Many web browsers are displaying the wrong glyph for this character, hence what you are looking at on this page may be wrong, don't trust the display.
* 9 is a dot on top of a variant of the 〤 (4) symbol 
* (〩 U+3029) is a character with two brush strokes which writes in the stroke order similar to "jiu3 (久 U+4E45)" by combining the first two strokes.
* 夂 & 夊 are characters with 3 brush strokes.
* 攵 & 文 each has 4 brush strokes
The bottom line is that all the above are not the same though they all look similar.  When the browsers show the wrong glyph, it just make these characters more confusing.
Kowloonese 03:21, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numeral 9 

message: I simplified the table, sacrificing a lot of the information in it which was either self-explanatory (e.g. 1012 is a trillion) or irrelevant (i.e. parts that aren't strictly about Chinese, e.g. myriad).  I also tried to narrow the first three columns to make it look better (:-)) and more followable.  I don't think I took anything too important out (some things I reworded and I moved one thing to a table footnote.  Please don't move this back into the table; it's too long - if it must be somewhere else, put it somewhere apart from inside the table.)  Neonumbers 13:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Table simplification=

message: I've checked a few Japanese website (Unicode version): 
and used excite translation: 
discovered that "極" does not come from Buddhist texts. However, the sites do not explain the origin of "極" clearly. 
Now, I ask everybody, is there any relevant information about "極"??220.118.11.13 07:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How does "極" come?? 

message: HaHa.It's suposed to mean that if your teacher gives you a 0 he has to write 零.Because i don't see for what practical reason you'll prefer a much more complicated symbol.--87.64.17.127 01:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  but 零(0) is more commonly used, especially in schools. 

message: Did the Chinese numeral system ever develop a concept of zero independently to the Hindu-Arabic numeral system? Or did they only get the concept of zero when they discovered the hindu-arabic system? Zachorious 10:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have written on the Chinese zero at ja:漢数字#〇、零.  According to the sources I have cited, the concept of zero already appeared in The Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art, but the character 〇 appeared much later than the first introduction of the Indian zero to China in 718 by Gautama Siddha. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  0 In Ancient China 

message: Should this article also include tally numerals (i.e. the forms of the numbers 1-5 that use progressive strokes of 正)?  Rod (A. Smith) 20:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. I suppose that when those are pronounced (infrequently, I would think), they are spoken just like the usual 1 - 5 numerals, though maybe using 兩. But I have never heard that. Dratman (talk) 01:47, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tally numerals 

message: I can't see why the list only includes cantonese but not other chinese dialects which have completely different pronunciation. Is this some sort of cantonese bigotry? Please add other dialects like shanghainese or sichuanese to the list in order to be comprehensive. --Small potato 19:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would probably be best to remove pronunciation entirely and just link the numerals to the corresponding English Wiktionary entries so interested readers can click through.  Rod (A. Smith) 18:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  other dialects 

message: In the "large numerals" section, notice the comment:
:The numerals beyond 載 jí come from Buddhist texts in Sanskrit, but these "Buddhist numerals" have become "ancient usage".
Then try to see what that sentence refers to. In the table, there is no entry for "jí". The character (載) matches the one called "zài", but since it is the largest one in the table, there are no "numerals beyond" to which the sentence could be referring.
Can someone help work this out? Robert Munafo (talk) 05:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Buddhist numerals" in large section 

message: I think Suzhou numerals should have its own article. Chinese number gestures got its own article, so Suzhou numerals being more historically significant should get its own article. --Voidvector (talk) 18:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I support splitting the Suzhou numerals section to its own article. The subject of the section diverges from the main subject of the article just enough to warrant a separate article. – jaksmata 19:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suzhou numerals 

message: Taken from w:ja:漢数字. Apparently they are also used in aviation and railways within China, not only in the military. If someone can confirm its validity, that would be wonderful.
数 	通常       	軍隊
0 	〇 (líng) 	洞 (dòng)
1 	幺 (yāo)  	幺 (yāo)
2 	二 (èr)   	两 (liǎng)
3 	三 (sān)  	三 (sān)
4 	四 (sì)   	刀 (dāo)
5 	五 (wǔ)   	五 (wǔ)
6 	六 (liù)  	六 (liù)
7 	七 (qī)   	拐 (guǎi)
8 	八 (bā)   	八 (bā)
9 	九 (jiǔ)  	勾 (gōu)
Regards, -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military numerals 

message: "The Chinese character system can be classified as part of the language, but it still counts as a number system." <- Could somebody elaborate on this claim? --Frozenport (talk) 07:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please clarify why this is a number system and not direct translation? 

message: The Middle Kingdom: A Survey of The... Chinese Empire and Its ..., Volume 1 By Samuel Wells Williams
http://books.google.com/books?id=nINu15k9FuMC&pg=PA495&dq=they+are+here+introduced+with+their+pronunciation+in+three+dialects&hl=en&ei=wL9zTsjmOYTe0QGyicirDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=they%20are%20here%20introduced%20with%20their%20pronunciation%20in%20three%20dialects&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 14:57, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Court Dialect (Mandarin), Cantonese, and Fujian (Hokkien) pronounciations of numbers 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This doesn't make sense. Just because the PRC uses 万亿 and 亿亿 instead of 兆 and 京 doesn't mean that we can accept them as Simplified forms, especially since some other countries using Simplified still use 兆 (such as Singapore). By that logic the entire Simplified row could be replaced with combinations of 万 and 亿 (I've seen 亿亿亿 used in a published work, for example). Moreover, the table compares four different systems that use the same ancient number names, and thus keeping the table as it was suggests that 万亿 could mean 10^6 and 亿亿 could mean 10^7, which is wrong. Rather, 万亿 and 亿亿 should be discussed as part of the note at the bottom of the table.
Considering that the table is in fact misleading as mentioned above, I've gone ahead and changed it with an added note.Arcorann (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  万亿 and 亿亿 as simplified forms of 兆 and 京 

message: I removed this template "cleanup lang|date=October 2023", because it claims that it is necessary to specify the "language" of the non-English content, but this is not true, because the content consists of characters, which do not have a "language", any more than Г or α does. Imaginatorium (talk) 07:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If we assume that is the case (it doesn't seem to be entirely true—there are plenty of characters on the page that are clearly specifically representing Chinese, such as in the first table. moreover, the thing that makes logographs different from letters is that they often "have a language", as they correspond to morphemes or words), it is necessary to tag the text as , which is the ISO 639 code representing an unspecified language written in Han characters, or Han characters in and of themselves. I actually created the  template to do this easily. Without further specification, as HTML documents all English Wikipedia articles are tagged as being wholly in English—for some reason, it rather bothers me that this is quite often not their declaration does not tell the whole truth about their contents. Remsense留 08:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template removed 

message: The metric prefixes ronto and quecto are missing their respective Chinese character in the Republic of China (Taiwan) table for SI Prefixes. Uuruuseiyo (talk) 20:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Uuruuseiyo, do you know what they are and where a reliable source is? Remsense留 23:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t know which is why I’m asking. Also there doesn’t seem to be a reference linked to the prefixes that were just added since 2022. Uuruuseiyo (talk) 10:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added both with an RS. The original ROC quetta prefix was wrong, BTW. Double sharp (talk) 15:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: thank you! Remsense诉 16:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Republic of China Taiwanese characters for metric prefixes 10^-27 and 10^-30 are missing 

message: The redirect 弐 has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Utopes (talk / cont) 09:20, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:弐]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]