Template talk:Bergen County, New Jersey

message: "The Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) is a database that contains name and locative information about more than two million physical and cultural features located throughout the United States of America and its territories. It is a type of gazetteer." 
===Features===
As the the above says, the GNIS refers to physical and cultural features & as GNIS itself clearly states, Populated (Community) Place (except those associated with facilities). Official common name for a populated location within an incorporated place.  To use it to say that the names listed are communities is original research. It is cherry picking to run through the list and choose ones one finds convenient to call a "community" while ignoring others. Use of GNIS as a primary/secondary reference to call that name a unincorporated community while the GNIS is unclear about that raises questions about verifiability and reliability. 
In the case of the :Template:Bergen County, New Jersey, an editor, who appears unfamiliar with the geography of the county, has chosen to indiscriminately create stubs for rail infrastructure by calling them communities when they are clearly facilities or features. In other situations, such as Coytesville, New Jersey, the editor claims the place(name) "is" a community., whereas actually Coytesville "was" a community that has been incorporated in Fort Lee or at best, "is" the name of a former community that has become part of the town. S/he has provided no reference to say that the community still exists or that the name is still used, and thus is presenting a historical place(name) as contemporary place. Wikipedia uses the past tense of "to be" to describe historical locations as seen ion Five Points, Manhattan or Horseshoe, Jersey City or as in the case of Saltersville, New Jersey redirects to the present-day municipality. 
===Self-redirect/circula & notability===
Addtionally, does it serve Wikipedia to create countless stubs based on a cherry-picked list compiled from GNIS. Do these all GNIS entries require a separate name page on Wikipedia? Who does it serves? when they could be easily re-directed and mentioned in township articles until such time as a fork, if ever, it becomes necessary (such as when there is significant historical or geographical information at the place or an event that took place there). Wikipedia:Notability, specifically Wikipedia:PAGEDECIDE discusses whether Wikipedia:STUB should be createad. As at least one other editor has suggested of the numerous stubs added to this template, These are not independently notable communities in modern Bergen County. They do not deserve articles.  A  parallel discussion there further elaborates. For example:
In addition to an area known as Mahwah Proper that is the township's center, other unincorporated communities, localities and place names within the township include include the residential areas of Ackermans Mills, Bear Swamp, Bogerts Ranch Estates, Cragmere, Cragmere Park, Darlington, Fardale, Halifax, Havemeyers Reservoir, Masonicus, Mountainside Farm, Pulis Mills, Ramapo Farm and Wanamakers Mills, along with the mixed residential and commercial area of West Mahwah.
How useful is it to send readers on a wild goose hunt? It borders of Wikipedia:SELFREDIRECT and Wikipedia:CIRCULAR, and as with the aforementioned Saltersville, a redirect to the municipality is much less time-consuming and effective. Djflem (talk) 10:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: For the most part, I think they should be removed or made as redirects to the actual entity the topic resides in. NJ doesn't have any unincorporated land. No need to waste the readers' time. Either remove them or point to a section of another article that explains the history of the entity. (Note: I was born, grew up, and spent a not insignificant portion of my adult life in Bergen County, including Montvale and Upper Saddle River. While I've heard of a few of these entity names, most are not known to me and I would bet that most are not known even to those living there.) - UtherSRG (talk) 15:41, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

text: I had raised this issue months ago at Talk:Fair Play, New Jersey, when  was creating the first the massive wave of articles for unincorporated communities. While I acknowledge that GNIS and NJ localities searches can be useful sources, they seem to fall extremely short in establishing notability. As  and  have pointed out, many of these places for which we have had articles created are nothing more than a reference to a train station or railroad junction. Even though every square inch of the state is part of an incorporated community, I do recognize that there are many neighborhoods and communities within communities -- what we effectively (if not fully accurately) call "unincorporated communities" for lack of a better term -- that merit their own articles. Yet I fully concur that the vast majority of these places do not merit articles and that the better solution is to allow them to grow as sections within their parent article. Without appropriate reliable and verifiable sources about these places -- far above and beyond GNIS -- there shouldn't be independent articles for these places. I hope that other editors, such as  and , will help develop a more coherent standard statewide for which places should have their own articles and which should not. Alansohn (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is indeed correct that after I created Fair Play, New Jersey, Alansohn redirected the article because--in his esteemed words--the "article has no content and should not be created until genuinely useful content can be added".  Stub article about New Jersey displeased Alansohn.  Makes you wonder why TWO WEEKS LATER that same editor went and created a bunch of stub articles about New Jersey, and HE USED GNIS AS A SOURCE FOR ALL OF THEM!  See Acton, Halltown, Portertown, Slapes Corner, Welchville, and Marshalltown.  Kinda makes him seem...what's the word I'm looking for? Magnolia677 (talk) 03:24, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

text: *Of the lot of stubs he created, the only one which actually HAS any content (except for his links to Google maps!) is Marshalltown, New Jersey--because I added it!  Magnolia677 (talk) 03:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As created by  here, the article for Fair Play, New Jersey contained a single source. Despite repeated requests, Magnolia677 refused to add any more sources to the article and never has. After consensus was reached that such places could have articles, I created a template to demonstrate that such articles could be created responsibly with multiple sources and be appropriately integrated into the network of articles for municipalities in New Jersey, creating such articles as Acton, Halltown, Marshalltown, Portertown, Slapes Corner and Welchville, all of which included multiple sources beyond a mere GNIS entry and each of which provided sourcing to establish a connection to the municipality in which it is located.  and  are among the editors that have created additional such articles using this template. It takes a truly hypocritical ass to argue that a lone GNIS link is enough to justify an article per WP:GEOLAND and then to run off to create an AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coxs Corner, Monmouth County, New Jersey to argue that an article should be deleted per WP:GEOLAND solely because it doesn't have a link to GNIS. Alansohn (talk) 17:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Alansohn, your stubs were all good articles.  Others besides me have expanded on them.  Be proud of your contribution!  But realize too that other editors are reading this, so at least be honest.  Your stubs were based on GNIS, and you got all the infobox data from GNIS, such as the elevation and geo-coordinates.  You chose to add a link to New Jersey place names, but it wasn't necessary, and you did this just to have a source for the township name.  The other two links you added were to online maps, and this was truly bewildering.  I was especially disappointed when you later started tagging the articles of other editors, as you did here, when they failed to add a ridiculous link to a Google map after stating "The  River Foo flows through the town".  But make no mistake, your stubs were based on GNIS data.  Magnolia677 (talk) 19:03, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, nor am I sure that you're trying to make a point rather than just simply be argumentative and disruptive. GNIS is a reliable source, but it isn't sufficient on its own to establish notability. Same for the New Jersey locality search. I would not -- as you have -- create an article solely based on a bare GNIS entry. It is worth using, and I certainly haven't rejected its use, nor can I understand what point your argument is about using the data from GNIS. You have repeatedly added statements about rivers, roads and other location claims in articles for such places, without providing any source and by pushing the BS that WP:BLUE covers your arbitrary descriptions of a place, as you did here. Sources are needed and you have persistently refused to provide them or provided clearly insufficient and irrelevant references. Given that GNIS merely provides a one dimensional point for a location, you can't legitimately make the claim that "The River Foo flows through the town" unless the place is in the middle of the Foo River. Even worse, your claim at Garrisons Corner that "The Denn Branch, a tributary of Stow Creek, flows through Garrison Corner" isn't even supported by the source provided. I don't understand what your point is here, but it is clear that you need to gain an understanding of how sources work in Wikipedia. Alansohn (talk) 19:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Argumentative and disruptive?  You were the one who called me an ass.  Magnolia677 (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: With the bullshit you've shoved in my direction at four failed WP:ANI attacks and one more at WP:3RR, I'd say you've earned the title. I will say that your recent AfD may have unwittingly undermined tour arguments and set the standard to require a minimum of two independent sources for these place articles. Alansohn (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If all an editor has is GNIS, they can always puff if up with links to Google maps, eh?  Magnolia677 (talk) 20:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: See my vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coxs Corner, Monmouth County, New Jersey, where I discuss that these map sites are merely mirrors of GNIS. You may also want to explain at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fair Play, New Jersey as to why that article is now notable. Alansohn (talk) 22:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

text: Seems to be hypocritical.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.51.200.4 (talk) 11:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Distorted perception by relying on GNIS in template

message: Addtionally, does it serve Wikipedia to create countless stubs based on a cherry-picked list compiled from GNIS. Do these all GNIS entries require a separate name page on Wikipedia? Who does it serves? when they could be easily re-directed and mentioned in township articles until such time as a fork, if ever, it becomes necessary (such as when there is significant historical or geographical information at the place or an event that took place there). Wikipedia:Notability, specifically Wikipedia:PAGEDECIDE discusses whether Wikipedia:STUB should be createad. As at least one other editor has suggested of the numerous stubs added to this template, These are not independently notable communities in modern Bergen County. They do not deserve articles.  A  parallel discussion there further elaborates. For example:
In addition to an area known as Mahwah Proper that is the township's center, other unincorporated communities, localities and place names within the township include include the residential areas of Ackermans Mills, Bear Swamp, Bogerts Ranch Estates, Cragmere, Cragmere Park, Darlington, Fardale, Halifax, Havemeyers Reservoir, Masonicus, Mountainside Farm, Pulis Mills, Ramapo Farm and Wanamakers Mills, along with the mixed residential and commercial area of West Mahwah.
How useful is it to send readers on a wild goose hunt? It borders of Wikipedia:SELFREDIRECT and Wikipedia:CIRCULAR, and as with the aforementioned Saltersville, a redirect to the municipality is much less time-consuming and effective. Djflem (talk) 10:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: For the most part, I think they should be removed or made as redirects to the actual entity the topic resides in. NJ doesn't have any unincorporated land. No need to waste the readers' time. Either remove them or point to a section of another article that explains the history of the entity. (Note: I was born, grew up, and spent a not insignificant portion of my adult life in Bergen County, including Montvale and Upper Saddle River. While I've heard of a few of these entity names, most are not known to me and I would bet that most are not known even to those living there.) - UtherSRG (talk) 15:41, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

text: I had raised this issue months ago at Talk:Fair Play, New Jersey, when  was creating the first the massive wave of articles for unincorporated communities. While I acknowledge that GNIS and NJ localities searches can be useful sources, they seem to fall extremely short in establishing notability. As  and  have pointed out, many of these places for which we have had articles created are nothing more than a reference to a train station or railroad junction. Even though every square inch of the state is part of an incorporated community, I do recognize that there are many neighborhoods and communities within communities -- what we effectively (if not fully accurately) call "unincorporated communities" for lack of a better term -- that merit their own articles. Yet I fully concur that the vast majority of these places do not merit articles and that the better solution is to allow them to grow as sections within their parent article. Without appropriate reliable and verifiable sources about these places -- far above and beyond GNIS -- there shouldn't be independent articles for these places. I hope that other editors, such as  and , will help develop a more coherent standard statewide for which places should have their own articles and which should not. Alansohn (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is indeed correct that after I created Fair Play, New Jersey, Alansohn redirected the article because--in his esteemed words--the "article has no content and should not be created until genuinely useful content can be added".  Stub article about New Jersey displeased Alansohn.  Makes you wonder why TWO WEEKS LATER that same editor went and created a bunch of stub articles about New Jersey, and HE USED GNIS AS A SOURCE FOR ALL OF THEM!  See Acton, Halltown, Portertown, Slapes Corner, Welchville, and Marshalltown.  Kinda makes him seem...what's the word I'm looking for? Magnolia677 (talk) 03:24, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

text: *Of the lot of stubs he created, the only one which actually HAS any content (except for his links to Google maps!) is Marshalltown, New Jersey--because I added it!  Magnolia677 (talk) 03:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As created by  here, the article for Fair Play, New Jersey contained a single source. Despite repeated requests, Magnolia677 refused to add any more sources to the article and never has. After consensus was reached that such places could have articles, I created a template to demonstrate that such articles could be created responsibly with multiple sources and be appropriately integrated into the network of articles for municipalities in New Jersey, creating such articles as Acton, Halltown, Marshalltown, Portertown, Slapes Corner and Welchville, all of which included multiple sources beyond a mere GNIS entry and each of which provided sourcing to establish a connection to the municipality in which it is located.  and  are among the editors that have created additional such articles using this template. It takes a truly hypocritical ass to argue that a lone GNIS link is enough to justify an article per WP:GEOLAND and then to run off to create an AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coxs Corner, Monmouth County, New Jersey to argue that an article should be deleted per WP:GEOLAND solely because it doesn't have a link to GNIS. Alansohn (talk) 17:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Alansohn, your stubs were all good articles.  Others besides me have expanded on them.  Be proud of your contribution!  But realize too that other editors are reading this, so at least be honest.  Your stubs were based on GNIS, and you got all the infobox data from GNIS, such as the elevation and geo-coordinates.  You chose to add a link to New Jersey place names, but it wasn't necessary, and you did this just to have a source for the township name.  The other two links you added were to online maps, and this was truly bewildering.  I was especially disappointed when you later started tagging the articles of other editors, as you did here, when they failed to add a ridiculous link to a Google map after stating "The  River Foo flows through the town".  But make no mistake, your stubs were based on GNIS data.  Magnolia677 (talk) 19:03, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, nor am I sure that you're trying to make a point rather than just simply be argumentative and disruptive. GNIS is a reliable source, but it isn't sufficient on its own to establish notability. Same for the New Jersey locality search. I would not -- as you have -- create an article solely based on a bare GNIS entry. It is worth using, and I certainly haven't rejected its use, nor can I understand what point your argument is about using the data from GNIS. You have repeatedly added statements about rivers, roads and other location claims in articles for such places, without providing any source and by pushing the BS that WP:BLUE covers your arbitrary descriptions of a place, as you did here. Sources are needed and you have persistently refused to provide them or provided clearly insufficient and irrelevant references. Given that GNIS merely provides a one dimensional point for a location, you can't legitimately make the claim that "The River Foo flows through the town" unless the place is in the middle of the Foo River. Even worse, your claim at Garrisons Corner that "The Denn Branch, a tributary of Stow Creek, flows through Garrison Corner" isn't even supported by the source provided. I don't understand what your point is here, but it is clear that you need to gain an understanding of how sources work in Wikipedia. Alansohn (talk) 19:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Argumentative and disruptive?  You were the one who called me an ass.  Magnolia677 (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: With the bullshit you've shoved in my direction at four failed WP:ANI attacks and one more at WP:3RR, I'd say you've earned the title. I will say that your recent AfD may have unwittingly undermined tour arguments and set the standard to require a minimum of two independent sources for these place articles. Alansohn (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If all an editor has is GNIS, they can always puff if up with links to Google maps, eh?  Magnolia677 (talk) 20:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: See my vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coxs Corner, Monmouth County, New Jersey, where I discuss that these map sites are merely mirrors of GNIS. You may also want to explain at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fair Play, New Jersey as to why that article is now notable. Alansohn (talk) 22:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

text: Seems to be hypocritical.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.51.200.4 (talk) 11:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Self-redirect/circula & notability