Talk:Barnes RFC

message: This article is very confusing - it details their pre-eminence in early soccer, then suddenly jumps to modern times when they apparently play rugby!  Seems there's a lot missing in between.......... ChrisTheDude 21:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Belatedly replying, but that's right - they declined to join the FA when it was formed and eventually became exclusively a rugby club. – iridescent 18:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? Yet they're supposed to have also been founding members of the FA and played within it for a long time (!*?). A pity that this page doesn't reference them. Snori (talk) 01:55, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Putting what I've managed to figure out here, in case it helps anyone else.
* Barnes FC was founded in 1862.  It was run by a committee of seven, elected by the club members, and headed by three officers, a Captain, a Secretary, and a Treasurer.  The rules regarding membership were relatively liberal, with new members needing to be proposed by existing members, and to pay an annual subscription of a shilling.  Non-members, it seems, were allowed to play, on the dual condition that they were friends of of members and that they were "residents of the parish of Barnes".  Rule number nine stated: "The balls and other property of the club shall be kept at the 'White Hart' and any four members may at any time have the use of them, subject to the rules of the club'.Morris, Vain Games of No Value?, A Social History of Association Football in Britain During Its First Long Century , p. 73, citing Keeton, The Soccer Club Secretary, p. 162
* 29th November 1862: Barnes FC, "only having been in existence a short time" plays its first recorded match, v. Richmond FC, at Barn Elms Park.
* Barnes FC was one of the founding members of the Football Association, in 1863
* Its captain was E. C. Morley, one of the crucial figures in the founding of the F.A.
* Its matches were originally played on "Barnes Green" 
* It participated in the first match under F.A. rules
* It participated in several F.A. Cups between 1872 and 1882 http://www.fchd.info/BARNES.HTM
* The club "throughout its life kept a distance from Wanderers, recruiting players of a lesser social status, and apparently of lesser ability".Morris, p. 85
* In 1896, Barnes FC's ground was in Lonsdale Road, Barnes 
* In 1896, the Harrodian Athletic Association (formed by Harrod's department store) holds its first meeting in Putney Velodrome.
* In 1900, the Harrodian A. A. is still playing at Putney Velodrome.
* 1901: Harrodian A.A. meets at Crystal Palace.
* In 1901, Barnes FC played an away match against Charterhouse .  This is one of the  last references I can find to a match played by its first team.
* On December 31st, 1902, Barnes played a home match against "Old Pocklingtonians".
* 1903: Harrodian A. A. meets at "new grounds situate in Church-road, Barnes"
* In December 1903, Barnes played away at Reigate in the "Surrey Senior Cup".
* 1904, June 6, "Harrodian Harriers" is meeting at "Mill Lodge, Lonsdale-road, Barnes".
* October 1904: Barnes FC is drawn in the Surrey FA Senior Cup.
* In December 1904, there is a reference to a "smoking concert" for Barnes FC  "in which many of the most prominent Association clubs were represented" 
* In 1905, Barnes's second team was drawn against Cottenham Park in the Surrey F. A. Council Junior Cup, with "Mr P. Brandon (Barnes F.C.) presiding".  
* In 1905, the "Harrodian A.A.A. held their tenth annual athletic meeting at their grounds, Mill Lodge, Lonsdale-road, Barnes".
* February 1906: Barnes v. Beckenham is the last football match I can find for almost 8 years (hockey and cricket are far more prominent at this time).
* April 1906: "Mr. Percy Brandon (Barnes F.C.)"
* In 1909, there is a reference to "Mr P. Brandon (Barnes)", with the implication that he is still a member of the club. . 
* 1909: "Mr. Percy Brandon (Barnes) being in the chair".
* 1911: Surrey FA Cup draw features not Barnes but "Barnes Incogniti".  This appears to be a completely separate club, in existence from 1892 to 1914.  Other confusing clubs: "Barnes United"; a long-established cricket club that suddenly starts playing football in 1902.  "Barnes and Mortlake [United]" -- appears in 1913; unfortunately impossible to search for the shorter name.
* 1912: "Barnes" is playing rugby: 
* 1913: first reference I can find to Harrodians playing rugby:
* 1913: another reference to "Mr Percy Brandon (Barnes and Surrey F.A.)"..
* 1914: Records death of Mr. Hubert Brandon, younger brother of Percy Brandon and Clarence Brandon, all associated with Barnes FC.
* 1914 - 1915: Barnes plays in the "Kingston and District Wednesday League" (Surrey Advertiser, passim)
* "Barnes Rugby Club ... was established in Barnes in the 1920's.  Although there are indeed possibilities that our earliest recorded match was in November 1862 versus Richmond and played at Barn Elms, it is from the 1920's that our true history is clear." (club website).  FWIW I can find a few references to "Harrodians" playing rugby / football at the Harrods ground in Lonsdale Road, Barnes.
* 1933 - 1938, Barnes plays in the "Southwest District Football League, Division 4" (West London Observer, passim).
* In 1936, a new "Barnes Football Club" is explicitly described as being "recently formed".   Plays at the "United Services Ground at Barnes Bridge".  Enters Southern Suburban League.  Social Club meets at the White Hart.
* In 1950, Barnes FC is playing in the Surrey Intermediate League Central Division, and is described as being "winners for the past two seasons".
* In 1953, a history of the FA states:  "Of the 'only and original' clubs forming The Football Association the Barnes Club alone has throughout the ages been an active and faithful member of The Football Association".
* In 1957, one example of Harrodians playing rugby (there is much more coverage of other sports such as cricket).
* In 1960, Barnes FC was knocked out of the Surrey Intermediate Charity Cup.
* November 1961: Barnes drawn against Wandsworth in the Surrey Intermediate Cup.
* August 1999: Barnes v Hillingdon
* In 2002, the club website claimed: "BARNES RUGBY CLUB is one of the oldest in the country.  Our earliest recorded match was November 1862 versus Richmond, played at Barn Elms. We won that match and the replay that followed.  For many years we played as Harrodians RFC before moving to our Barn Elms location in 1987."
* In 2005, John Inverdale (who was "[f]or reasons that I'm not altogether clear about, ... one of a number of vice-presidents" of the club)  claimed in a newspaper article that "in 1839, according to the club records, Barnes RFC were born, playing fixtures against a whole mish-mash of teams of which no match results have been kept"
* On December 15th, 2007, the website claimed: "Barnes Rugby Club has now been recognised as one of the oldest rugby clubs in the country. Our earliest recorded match was in November 1862 versus Richmond and played at Barn Elms. We won that match and the replay that followed later in the year.  For many years we played at Harrodian Club before moving to our Barn Elms location in 1994."
* On February 15th, 2008, this claim was significantly modified: "Barnes Rugby Club is a club with a rich history and was established in Barnes in the 1920's. Although there are indeed possibilities that our earliest recorded match was in November 1862 versus Richmond and played at Barn Elms, it is from the 1920's that our true history is clear. For many years we played at Harrodian Club in Lonsdale Road, Barnes, which is now The Harrodian School, before moving to our Barn Elms location in 1994.  Barnes RFC 1st XV has been promoted seven times since being arriving in Surrey Division Three in l987. The 1st XV now play in the London Division 1 league."
* "With the advent of leagues, Barnes, then known as Old Harrodians, were placed in Surrey Three. In 1990/91, the club started the season with no ground or clubhouse after the Harrods store was sold and their sports club in Lonsdale Road, Barnes was sold off and turned into a school. After a big effort from all at the club, a decision was taken to play and train at Barn Elms, and members donated to refurbish a clubhouse adjacent to the land. By the mid Nineties, the club, now named after the village in which they played, finally climbed out of the Surrey Leagues, and took a while to establish themselves in the London Divisions." (club website)
===Summary===
Putting all this together, we have:
* (A) Barnes Football Club, founded  1862 (or just possibly earlier), playing association football until the early 1900s.  Its final ground was in Lonsdale Road.
* (B) Barnes Football Club, founded in the 1930s, playing association football
* (C) Barnes Football Club, playing association football in the 1950s (and possibly later)
* (D) Harrodians, playing multiple sports including rugby and association football from the 1920s, at Harrods Sports Club in Lonsdale Road (perhaps the same site as (A)??)
* (E) Old Harrodians, playing rugby in the early 1990s, at Harrods Sports Club in Lonsdale Road, until its ground was sold to The Harrodian School.
* (F) Barnes Rugby Football Club, playing rugby from the 1990s to today.
According to the club website, D, E, and F are the same club.
According to the History of the FA (1953), A, B and C are the same club.  FWIW, that book is disappointingly sloppy and error-strewn.
AFAIK, no one (not even the current club) is seriously claiming today that A and F are the same club.
Grover cleveland (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Trying to figure out this club's history

message: Putting all this together, we have:
* (A) Barnes Football Club, founded  1862 (or just possibly earlier), playing association football until the early 1900s.  Its final ground was in Lonsdale Road.
* (B) Barnes Football Club, founded in the 1930s, playing association football
* (C) Barnes Football Club, playing association football in the 1950s (and possibly later)
* (D) Harrodians, playing multiple sports including rugby and association football from the 1920s, at Harrods Sports Club in Lonsdale Road (perhaps the same site as (A)??)
* (E) Old Harrodians, playing rugby in the early 1990s, at Harrods Sports Club in Lonsdale Road, until its ground was sold to The Harrodian School.
* (F) Barnes Rugby Football Club, playing rugby from the 1990s to today.
According to the club website, D, E, and F are the same club.
According to the History of the FA (1953), A, B and C are the same club.  FWIW, that book is disappointingly sloppy and error-strewn.
AFAIK, no one (not even the current club) is seriously claiming today that A and F are the same club.
Grover cleveland (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary

message: * It is not clear that the proposition that today's Barnes Rugby Football Club is a continuation of the original Barnes Football Club founded in 1862 can  be maintained with anything approaching confidence.  Even club's own website no longer affirmatively makes this claim: it states (emphasis added): "Barnes Rugby Club is a club with a rich history and was established in Barnes in the 1920's. Although there are indeed possibilities that our earliest recorded match was in November 1862 versus Richmond and played at Barn Elms, it is from the 1920's that our true history is clear."
* The overall history of the clubs, detailed in the section above, is sufficiently confusing that splitting out into separate articles will bring much-needed clarification.
* The claims of links between the two entities can be described in the separate articles.
Grover cleveland (talk) 04:16, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to split off Barnes Football Club