Talk:Wessex

message: Had to revert the last edit, as a glance at the map of Wessex in Thomas Hardy's works will show that he certainly included Devon (as Lower Wessex) within his literary Wessex.
I note that the flag of Wessex has been changed, but essentially the illustration on here is similar to the previous one. Was there a copyright issue? James Frankcom
:The version currently shown was designed by William Crampton of the Flag Institute in 1974. I changed it from an "improved" version designed by Chris Fear, because all the Wessex flags currently in existence are based on the Crampton design, rather than Fear's more complex version, which would be more expensive to make Nick xylas 04:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: revert

message: What goes on here? King Egbert was the first King of England? This contradicts the England article and generally every other source which indicates Athelstan was the first King of England. Egbert did not refer to himself as King of England. He was the Bretwalda. This article confuses things. Even Alfred never called himself King of England. White43 13:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  King Agbert of England? 

message: I notice there's no reference to the infamous Golden Dragon/Wyvern that decorates many things in the region. Appeared on the Bayeux tapestry and referenced by Henry of Huntingdon and Matthew of Westminster when talking of the Battle of Burford. 84.12.47.154 11:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golden Dragon 

message: I left a note at the forum page for the medieval wiki project, but I don't know how many people read that, so I thought I'd post a note here and at Mercia too.  Is anyone interested in working on getting all the Wessex (or Mercia) related articles up to high quality, e.g. featured standard?  It would mainly be the kings and battles articles, plus a general history article (this one) and maybe a few others.  If you're interested, let me know and I'll see about setting up a task force page under the main wiki project to help coordinate activities. Mike Christie (talk) 17:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone interested in working on Wessex related articles? 

message: The result was merge both Ceol of Wessex and Ceolwulf of Wessex into Wessex. -- Mike Christie (talk) 10:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes indeed! put the single sentence or whatever little's known into a footnote in the relevant article of larger context (Wessex), bold the name as it appears in that article, as the object of a redirect, and make the stub-without-a-future into a redirect. No information gets lost, and anyone with new material can add it to the footnote, or even create an article. Few would complain, except the disinfobox makers, who generally like to complete their collection of empty boxes, and the biographical directory entry listers. Neither group is building an encyclopedia.  If every fool can "be bold!" why not a sensible editor too!--Wetman 04:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested merges 

message: Yorkshirian recently added this new version of an old map to this article; it was removed by Deacon of Pndapetzim and re-added by Yorkshirian.  I'd like to replace it with this map instead, which doesn't use boundaries.    The changes were made to several articles, so to centralize discussion, please post at Talk:Mercia#Map if you have an opinion. Mike Christie (talk) 02:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map discussion 

message: I note that the date of Cerdic's landing has been revised and placed at 538AD. I accept this does aid with some inconsistencies with the genealogies of the early kings of Wessex but on the down side completely obliterates the formative events prior to the capture of Old Sarum in 552AD. 
The Anglo Saxon Chronicle places the arrival of Cerdic in the year 495 with other West Saxons arriving on the southern coast around the Solent between 495AD - 504AD. There is then a battle in 508 (probably at Netley) resulting in the capture of Winchester and another in 514 that culminated most probably in the conquest of Silchester and the occupation of the rest of what is today called the county of Hampshire. Another battle in 519 at Cerdicesford (Charford) on the River Avon (Hampshire) may be the last before the Battle of Mons Badonicus occurred and West Saxon advances are checked. There is no further expansion by the West Saxons noted by the chronicle until 552AD when they are recorded as capturing Old Sarum. If we accept the conclusions of one academic and move the date of all these events to 538-552AD we are saying definitively that the Anglo Saxon Chronicle is wrong. We are also deciding to expunge from the record a series of formative events in the early history of the kingdom of Wessex; events which crucially collaborate with the little we know about the Arthurian period of British history; particularly the view that Mons Badonicus occurred in c.517AD which supports the corresponding gap in the expansion of Wessex recorded in the Chronicle between c.519 and 552AD. The view that Mons Badonicus occurred in 517AD is further supported by statements made by Gildas concerning his date of birth and by the Welsh Annals. To conclude that the entire invasion and occupation of early Wessex occurred after 538AD has a very detrimental effect on other events and is too drastic to accept without discussion.James Frankcom (talk) 11:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dating and the expansion of early Wessex 

message: Please see :Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Dore. Moonraker2 (talk) 01:09, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Battle of Dore

message: I added a comment into the Revival of Wessex section to the effect that some Devonians do not identify themselves as being from Wessex, but rather with Dumnonia (or in more modern day parlance they associate themselves more with Cornwall and perhaps Somerset and Dorset, but not in a region with points as far east as Hampshire, Berkshire or Oxfordshire.  I am one of those people. In reality this was a restatement of comments that appeared here, after some interaction with Nick Xylas (of the Wessex Society), and I believe that it should be reinstated for completeness.  There are numerous examples if evidence is needed. Dewnans (talk) 07:14, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Fringe theories. That's exactly what this is - a whacky minority fringe theory. Let's see what others think. --Bob Re-born (talk) 08:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole Revival section is unreferenced.  The Hardy section needs to be there, and some reference to the regionalist micro-groups, but we are in danger of giving undue weight, that could cause confusion to readers elsewhere in the world who might not be aware of how "fringe" these groups are.  The text in relation to those groups needs to be referenced from WP:RS.  So far as Devon is concerned, Dewnans' personal contacts, views and beliefs should be given no weight whatsoever here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:03, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

text: You claim that "many in Devon do not identify with a "wessex" region, although some may"? You imply through this that it is actually a majority which I find hard to believe. As Ghmyrtle said, this needs to be properly sourced. --Bob Re-born (talk) 11:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

text: (e/c) You say "happy to provide references", but you need to do so. They need to be independent references, and we need to give them proper (that is, possibly very little or no) weight. "Over 1000" signatures on a petition is, frankly, laughably puny and non-notable.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

text: Why am I reminded of this?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Very good :-), but somehow I am reminded of this Dewnans (talk) 15:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Devon

message: Can we please have a map which shows the traditional bounds of Wessex itself - not a map of half of England with a coastline which is quite wrong. The bounds of Wessex were, everyone agrees, the shire south of the River Thames but excluding the shires of Sussex, Kent and Cornwall. This was the kingdom of Wessex up until c.825 when Egbert of Wessex dominated the "south-eastern provinces" and annexed them to his kingdom. Nevertheless, the differentiation between Wessex proper and these new south-eastern dominions continued because his son (Aethelwulf) and grandson (Aethelbald) ruled the two areas separately after his death. The map at the moment shows the English Kingdom and does not show Wessex itself. As regards to the coast, yes I acknowledge it shows marshland areas around the Fenns and Somerset Levels but the SEA did not come cover those areas. They were inland waters so the coast is quite wrong. All in all the file named Map of Wessex in 945.png is an extremely poor and inadequate map. Aetheling1125 17:51, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have taken "direct action" and restored the map used previously. Aetheling1125 18:02, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Aetheling1125. I created the map you're referring to, but I agree it isn't adequate. Generally, historical states articles show the state right before they are disestablished, so I think having a map that shows Wessex and its client states as distinctly separate, with borders of the various states in the 10th century would be most ideal. Thoughts? Rob (talk | contribs) 21:25, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: In the infobox it lists "Lothian and Borders" as being a region which Wessex is "today part of". This doesn't make sense to me; am I missing something here? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The West Saxon kingdom at its greatest extent, and the English kingdom at its foundation are the same entity. The West Saxon king did rule Lothian for a short period. Nonetheless, 'United Kingdom' alone is fine. – Rob (talk | contribs) 00:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Part of Lothian and Borders??? 

message: The article completely omits mention of the relations with the British subkingdom whic formed a sizeable chunk of its territory. I have made a start to rectify this but assistance would be helpful  - rather than instant reversion on grounds of 'possible vandalism' by the ill-informed. Many thanks Truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true; and she does not despise the jewel which she has rescued from the mud, but adds it to her former treasures 12:27, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: When someone removes most of an article - as you did in this edit - it's reasonable to call it "possible vandalism", even if it was done inadvertently.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:32, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: How was that mass deletion in anyway defensible? I mean really...--Chairman Peng Xi (talk) 15:47, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Dumnonia & Cornwall?

message: For any page watchers curious about my edits, I'm currently starting the process of rewriting this article (with hopes of bringing it to at least GA status). Thanks, --Biblioworm  19:08, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewriting/sourcing 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Wessex. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140409002442/http://www.somerset.gov.uk/oldtourism/residents/pages/coatofarms.htm to http://www.somerset.gov.uk/oldtourism/residents/pages/coatofarms.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080222173807/http://www.royal.gov.uk:80/output/Page4491.asp to http://www.royal.gov.uk/OutPut/Page4491.asp
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It states in this section that Cenwealh married and put aside Penda's daughter. In fact according to Bede and to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenwalh_of_Wessex she was Penda's sister. 
Dantes Warden
Dantes Warden (talk) 19:46, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Wessex and the rise of Mercia 

message: Æfter þon þa þe Ceadwala wæs gemægenad ⁊ gestrongod on Westseaxna rice þa eode he eac ⁊ onfeng Wiht þæt ealond þæt eal wæs oð þa tid deofolgildum geseald. Ond he gelice þy troiscan wæle ealle þa londbigengan wolde ut amærian ⁊ his agenra leoda onnum gesettan.
[After this, when Cædwalla was confirmed and strengthened in the kingdom of the West Saxons, then he also went and took Wight the island, which was entirely given to devil-worship until that time. And he, as in the Trojan slaughter, wanted to exterminate all the inhabitants of that land, and place men of his own people (there).]
The Old English Version of Bede's Historia Ecclesiastica Book Author(s): Sharon M. Rowley Published by: Boydell & Brewer, D. S. Brewer. (2011), p. 93
Just to highlight the grammar involved in the issue - Anglo-Saxon was an inflected language, it was not reliant on word order to indicate subject-object relationships. In the particular case of Westseaxna rice, the ending '-na' is a contracted version of the weak plural genitive ending '-ena'. Thus Westseaxna rice means "[the] kingdom belonging to [the] West Saxons", or in usable Modern English, "The Kingdom of the West Saxons". Urselius (talk) 14:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translating Westseaxna Rice 

message: This is the English language Wikipedia. While I understand that these maps may be hard to find, I also believe there must be good versions of the same mapes in English. I am mono-lingual in English, and find it difficult to understand what the French and German texts area saying. And why should I have to translate them?!? People all over the world access this article, and English is their second language, and now they are taxed with having to understand two  more languages. Can some expert please replace the French and German maps with English maps? Nick Beeson (talk) 13:53, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  English maps?? 

message: created , which is described as a design for a "Flag of Wessex", based on a 1973 or 1974 suggestion for a flag of Wessex of a gold wyvern on red. The file description also states that the proposal does not appear to have raised much interest locally, but the image is nevertheless in the 'Symbols' section of this article. Hogweard also created , based on the original image but with a white background. This is in the infobox. The image might be suitable for Wessex Regionalists, but I do not think it is notable for this article, and certainly not in two slightly different versions. I have twice deleted the infobox image and  has twice restored it. Can other editors comment. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The flag, :File:FlagOfWessex.svg, is a registered pattern, that appears on the UK Flag Registry. It's not a comment on the appropriateness of it in the article, but the flag is a genuine pattern.Hogweard (talk) 21:21, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there not  a distinction between Wessex as a more general concept, and Wessex as a historic kingdom? I would support having the  in the infobox as that's recognized as a symbol of the Kingdom of Wessex which the infobox relates to, and keep the flag in the symbols section as a more modern development? --BryceIII (talk) 10:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: They are not historic and modern flags, but two copies of the same modern flag with different coloured backgrounds. As I said above, I do not see the point of having two copies of the image in the article. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:00, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two sources of evidence about the Kings of the West Saxons using a dragon: various texts (or at least in the Historia Brittonum; I believe there are actual historic ones I'm not looking up now) and the Bayeux Tapestry.  The Tapestry contains an image (:File:Dragon banner - Harold Rex interfectus est.jpg) of a dragon as a flag, but not as we would expect it. (There are various dragon-like creatures in the borders on occasion too as an artistic flourish.) The flag is a modern conceit.  I drew it from the registered pattern because there was a very poorly executed one being used before. It appears that the one which until recently appeared at the top of the article was just the flag version with the background removed. It represents a genuine symbol but we do not know how such a symbol was used or how it appeared when it was, so it is best leaving it out. Hogweard (talk) 12:23, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The Bayeux Tapestry images appear not to be flags as such, but versions of the Late Roman draco. It was a sort of banner with a metal animal head mounted on a pole, with a fabric tail like a windsock. Air entering the open mouth of the metal beast made the windsock writhe in the air as if it were alive. The Romans adopted it from the Sarmatians. It is shown on some Carolingian illustrations and there is no doubt that the English adopted it, like the Franks, in order to ape the imperial Roman past. This tendency can be seen in the thufa banner carried before Edwin of Northumbria, mentioned by Bede, and in many aspects of the gear buried at Sutton Hoo (especially the helmet and the cuirass, of which only the shoulder clasps survive). Urselius (talk) 12:45, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead image 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mercia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 22:16, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: GB was not constituted in this period, bur England was! Ériugena (talk) 14:47, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Great Britain is the name of the island, that it is also used at certain times for a nation is purely incidental. Great Britain was and is so named to differentiate it from 'Less Britain' which is an old term for Brittany in France. Brittany was colonised by Britons from Dumnonia (Cornwall and Devon), and certain kings simultaneously ruled in both Dumnonia and Brittany - parts of Brittany are called Cornuaille and Domnonie. In modern French Brittany is called Bretagne and Britain is called Grande Bretagne, which preserves this ancient connection in contemporary usage. In contrast, England definitely did not exist as either a geographical or political entity at the time Wessex was an independent kingdom. Urselius (talk) 08:51, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The term in Anglo-Saxon charters is the Latin Britanniæ. So far as I know, "Great" was not used by the Anglo-Saxons, and I would be interested in evidence to the contrary. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Contemporary Anglo-Saxon's usage is not really all that relevant here - Offa called himself 'Basileus of the whole World of Britain' - it is the usage in geographical nomenclature that matters. 'Great Britain' could be replaced by 'the island of Britain' with intact precision, as Brittany is a peninsula. What is not in question, is that the name of an island covers all time periods, but the political and geographical entity of England does not. Urselius (talk) 11:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Contemporary Anglo-Saxon usage is relevant for an article about Wessex. Britain would be better than Great Britain as the geographical name for the island. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No it isn't, because that would be Britene in Old English, or variants of that word, and who would know what that was?. 'Britain' is historically ambiguous as I have explained, better to use 'the island of Britain' for the reasons I have given. In Welsh the usual usage is Ynys Prydein, which means 'Island of Britain'. Urselius (talk) 19:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great Britain changed to England

message: Can we move it back to 'Kingdom of Wessex' again? It's name should be aligned with other six kingdoms of the heptarchy. Pktlaurence (talk) 17:15, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Mercia and Northumbria do not have "Kingdom of", which is only needed for kingdoms such as Essex, which need to be distinguished from the modern county. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:51, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page title 

message: Should flag be added Coldgeep9 (talk) 22:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No. A flag is anachronistic. Wessex did not have a flag. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Coldgeep9, just to add to this, the flag in question (:File:FlagOfWessex.svg), as is covered in the Symbols section, was created in the 1970s, by William Crampton, as a flag for a possible modern day Wessex region. While the kingdom's armies seem to have used some sort of Draco, those were widespread among european armies and don't necessarily mean that they represented "Wessex" as a concept at that time. The association between Wyvern's and specifically Wessex seems only to be popularised in 19th century. Therefore any flag for Wessex and more specifically 70s Crampton flag would be completely impropriate for a polity that stopped existing in the 10th c. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 12:50, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag