Talk:The Deputy

message: The summary of the acts of the play seems to come from a book entitled Pius XII and the Holocaust: Understanding the Controversy by Jose M. Sanchez. It is not listed in the references. Take for instance the summary of IV found on wikipedia:
Pius, with a "cold, smiling face," "aristocratic coldness," and an "icy glint" in his eyes[3]voices his concerns about the Vatican's financial assets and the Allied bombing of factories in Italy.
Compare that to selected parts of Sanchez's summary found on page 26 of his book:
The Pope is characterized as having a "cold, smiling face," "aristocratic coldness," and an "icy glint [to] his eyes" (p. 195). He is concerned about the Vatican's stocks and securities and about the Allied bombing of Italy's factories.
There are other examples and it appears to me whoever wrote the summary did so only after reading Sanchez and not the actual play.
147.226.158.141 (talk) 20:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did use Sanchez to find quotes but thats not "plagiarism". Savidan 22:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarized? 

message: What currently is happening in the articles Rolf Hochhuth and "The Deputy" is everything else but encyclopedic work. Why do you think the renowned "Goethe Akademie zu Weimar" will hold an Interdisciplinary Conference on the Person and Collected Works of Rolf Hochhuth from September 25 to 28, 2008? In Weimar, the center of classic German culture? You think dozens of renowned international professors would be willing to speak at a conference for an alleged "Holocaust denier"? In which remote spheres are cold warriors and wannabe secret agents such as User:Ambrosius007 actually dwelling? Is there no more commendable task for aggrieved venerators of Pope Pius XII than slander? --Diggindeeper (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious catholic bias of recent edits 

message: During World War Two, Rolf Hochhuth was a member of the Hitler Youth. He did not comment on his indoctrination, attitudes and activities during that time, nor was he much expected to, given his age at the time. The Deputy, in which an cold-blooded, oportunistic pope was confronted by two morally upright German Protestant SS Officers Gerstein and Ernst von Weizsäcker,  raised sensational interest at the time. The Deputy clearly put much of the blame for the Holocaust not on Germany or the Germans, but on the doorsteps of the Vatican. In March 2005, Hochhuth's political views were highlighted, when he defended   David Irving  in an interview with the German weekly Junge Freiheit.  Irving had been sentenced in Britain (2000), Austria (2006) and Germany (1993) for his Holocaust Denials. Germany also barred him from ever entering the country  for the same reason. Hochhuth called Ivring a truly great and very serious historian  and judged the accusations against him as “idiotic”   Die Würde des Ortes respektieren. Der Schriftsteller Rolf Hochhuth über seinen Vorschlag für ein Bombenkriegsmuseum, David Irving und Winston Churchill. Interview mit Rolf Hochhuth in der JF vom 18. Februar 2005  
When confronted with Ivring’s statement, that less people died during the Holocaust than on the backseat of Edward Kennedy's car, (one) and that there were no gas chambers in Auschwitz, Hochhuth  defended Ivring as a great historian and called all this black humour, probably provoked. Karl Pfeifer, Rolf Hochhuth: Lob für einen notorischen Holocaustleugner, Hagalil 21-02-2005. Der Kommentator von Hagalil weist darauf hin, dass Irving diese Bemerkung nicht nach einer "wahnsinnigen Provokaktion", sondern vor zahlendem Publikum getätigt hatte. Während des Londoner Prozesses war dieser Vortrag in einem Video gezeigt worden. Richard Rampton, der Anwalt der Beklagten, sagte daraufhin: "Spott allein reicht nicht. Sie müssen auch geschmacklos sein. Sie müssen Dinge sagen wie: Auf dem Rücksitz von Senator Edward Kennedys Auto in Chappaquidick starben mehr Frauen als in den Gaskammern von Auschwitz." 
Paul Spiegel, the President of the  Central Jewish Council in Germany,  stated that Hochhuth himself is denying the Holocaust with these statements. .Wie ein Blinder von der Farbe - Hochhuth hatte keine Ahnung, N-TV, 25. Februar 2005 After weeks of uproar, Hochhuth finally issued a weak apology.
I think this passage needs serious cleanup; there seems a point in here but it seems to have become a bucket for misc slander of the author rather than a clear expression of the idea referred to in the title.--Xris0 (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I endorse the removal of this content. It should go in the Hochhuth article, and not this one, as it has no direct relevance to the play in question. Savidan 00:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: incoherent passage - "The Deputy in the context of [[Holocaust denial]]"

message: The right-wing "Cold War"-era anti-communist hysteria of this article is beyond belief. I have no read anything like this in a generation, and that stuff usually was a generation old. 
As for the National Review being a respected source, it is a biased, ideologically based periodical that is involved in disseminating right-wing propaganda. 
The idea that the play was praised by critics who were predominantly left-wing, fellow-travelers and communists is specious. How does one report an article for bias?Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 06:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: This article is full of fundamental errors emanating from the one-sided agenda of one agitated editor (who, interestingly enough, seems to think that "literature" is among the bigger threats to the Holy See and the integrity of our Western societies, and that flashy little "alarm signs" might be a good cure, at least on user pages).
Let me mention a few quite characteristic misconceptions: 
* "The play was first performed at east Berlin's Freie Volksbühne [...] on February 20, 1963 [...]." - Oh, really? Never ever (no matter what scholar Stephen Whitfield may believe to know). The "Freie Volksbühne Berlin" has been located in Schaperstraße 24, West-Berlin. The "Freie Volksbühne" has not at all been identical to the Volksbühne Berlin on Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz in East-Berlin. Why? The Freie Volksbühne was created by the anti-communist exponents of the old Volksbühne movement who had to continue their work in West-Berlin after their original theatre was out-of-reach in East-Berlin after 1945 and could not be used by them any more. If you care for the truth, ask the people of Berlin.
* "The play toured the Eastern Bloc and then proceeded to tour the free world." Oh, really? Never ever (no matter what journalist Melik Kaylan believes to know). Like it or not, it was vice versa. As the original, unaltered article already stated, the play toured the Western world first. When author Rolf Hochhuth (who is known as an anti-communist) after almost three years allowed his play to be performed in Eastern Europe as well, the "Deutsches Theater" in East-Berlin took its chance and produced it in January February 1966. 
* Ion Pacepa's inventive "KGB collaboration in the play" fantasy is certainly nothing that an encyclopedia has to extensively reflect upon (as long as academia does not approve of it). Broadway und U.S. press were widely infiltrated by communists in 1964? My impression so far had been that McCarthy era thinking had lost its appeal to a majority of Americans. Rolf Hochhuth "was particularly opposed to priestly celibacy". Oh, really? That's exactly the way many Catholics think today. I repeat myself: this paragraph is misplaced here. 
What has been done to this article in recent months is throwing a bad light on the intentions of a minority of Wikipedia editors. What has happened to our ability to create an equilibrium even in representing controversial contents? Ion Pacepa was one of the military figureheads of Stalinist Romania. For a historical pope who shall enter the next step of the canonization process and who depends on apologists like Pacepa now, may well apply what Dante Alighieri conceived as that famous Gate Inscription: "Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate!"
I know, we on Wikipedia (and the same seems to apply to some editors of "The Times") are big-hearted and bear no enmity (or exaggerated caution against the sophisticated PR methods of ex-Stalinist intelligence officials). I still believe, in this case we can do much better. --Diggindeeper (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some errors 

message: To clarify recurring misconceptions on the production history of The Deputy (regarding the misleading claim "The play toured the Eastern Bloc and then proceeded to tour the free world."), I attach a comprehensive list of the play's international productions from 1963 to 1966 (data source: Rowohlt publishing house, owner of the copyright, exact dates available): 
Year	Calendar quarter	Countries                                                                                       	Theaters                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 	
1963	1               	West Germany                                                                                    	Freie Volksbühne (West-Berlin) (debut performance on February 22, 1963, from February 1964 touring other cities)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         	
    	3               	Sweden, Switzerland, Great Britain                                                              	Dramaten Stockholm, Stadttheater Basel, Aldwych Theatre London                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           	
    	4               	Denmark, Finland, France, Switzerland                                                           	Odense Teater, Swedish Theatre Helsinki, Théâtre de l'Athénée Paris, Bern Stadttheater                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   	
1964	1               	Austria, West Germany, Greece, Denmark, United States                                           	Volkstheater Wien, Städtische Bühnen Frankfurt, Schauspielhaus Bochum, Akademia Theater Athens, Aarhus Theatre, Bühnen der Stadt Essen, Thalia Theater (Hamburg), Stadttheater Bielefeld, Städtische Bühnen Bremerhaven, Brooks Atkinson Theatre New York, Kammerspiele Düsseldorf (tour), Städtische Bühnen Flensburg, Stadttheater Gießen                                                                                                                                                              	
    	2               	Netherlands, Israel                                                                             	Nieuw Rotterdams Toneel, Habima Theatre Tel Aviv                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         	
    	3               	Finland                                                                                         	Finnish National Theatre Helsinki                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        	
1965	1               	Canada, Great Britain, Italy                                                                    	Crest Theatre Toronto, Library Theatre Manchester, Cenacolo di San Appoloni, Firenze                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     	
    	3               	Australia, United States,                                                                       	Old Tote Theatre Company Sydney, Theatre Group in Schoenberg Hall, UCLA, Los Angeles                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     	
    	4               	Great Britain, Sweden, United States, South Africa, Argentina                                   	Birmingham Repertory Theatre, Karlstad Teater, Theater in Boston, Alexander Theatre Johannesburg, Theatre in Buenos Aires                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                	
1966	1-4             	Norway, Yugoslavia, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Great Britain, Poland, Hungary, Japan	Det Norske Teatret Oslo, National Theatre in Belgrade, Théâtre Royal des Galeries Brussels, Slovak National Theatre Bratislava, Deutsches Theater East Berlin, Theater of the Army Prague, Belgrade Theatre Coventry, Volkstheater Rostock, Vereinigte Theater Greifswald, Städtisches Theater Leipzig, Staatsschauspiel Dresden, Städtische Bühnen Magdeburg, Landestheater Halle, Bühnen der Stadt Gera, National Theatre Warsaw, Thalia Theatre Budapest, Tokyo Centre Hall, Contra-Kreis-Theater Bonn	
 
In contrast to what the article states, productions in Eastern Bloc states started on February 12, 1966 with a staging at the National Theatre in Bratislava. If you count Yugoslavia as part of the Eastern Bloc (after breaking ties with Soviet policy in 1948), one earlier production had occured at the National Theatre in Belgrade in January 1966. My impression: Some editors try to misrepresent well-known historical facts on a play that has become uncomfortable after almost 50 years again. --Diggindeeper (talk) 12:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you again for assuming good faith ("Some editors try to misrepresent well-known historical facts"). It appears it did premier in West Berlin. But the error couldn't be good faith, no. There's a nefarious plot to misrepresent the facts. The fact that a source says this "The play,  which made the rounds of the Eastern Bloc and then the world" and that the theater in West Berlin where it premiered bore the same name as a theater in East Berlin, are beside the point, aren't they? Mamalujo (talk) 01:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as poorly researched columns of travel and leisure journalists are used to create an article on a Holocaust play instead of readily available research literature, it may not become a piece of encyclopedic quality work anytime soon. It would be nice if you could turn more attention on accuracy if the term Freie Volksbühne Berlin sounds identical to Volksbühne am Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz to you. --Diggindeeper (talk) 12:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Production history of ''The Deputy'' 

message: The way I see it:
:* In this edit, I significantly shortened Mamalujo material and created a short paragraph about the Seat 12 article.
:* In this edit Jayjg made it shorter, and I accepted his change on the talk page, and joked abut server space.
:* In this edit Mamalujo extended it, but later, in this edit accepted that version as "a less than perfect compromise" but agreed to it.
I think it is appropriate to include what the "leading German newspaper opined" as Sparafucil recently added. But apart from that my rusty math tells me that we have 3 users (namely myself, Jayjg and Mamalujo) who endorse the short Jayjg paragraph version last stabilized in this edit. But we have Diggindeeper and Sparafucil who do not like that version of the paragraph. Am I right? So it seems to me, based on that math that there is "no consensus" to change this edit. So Diggindeeper and Sparafucil are editing against consensus, and said edit should be restored. Am I right, or am I right? History2007 (talk) 00:26, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with the current version, including what the "leading German newspaper opined". Mamalujo obviously wants to lengthen it, and in particular state Pacepa's allegations as fact. Diggingindeeper wants to pretty much remove it altogether. So, this seems like a reasonable enough compromise. Jayjg (talk) 03:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, let us go with that. End of text discussion. That is almost what we had before, except that the section head "Reception" has now been changed and the Seat 12 item does not seem to fit along with "Reception". So those two small paragraphs should probably be separated. Then can we all go away and have separate picnics without talking about plays? History2007 (talk) 07:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

text: We get into undue weight problems by gutting the pre-2007 reception history and many other controversies around the play; thanks to Jayjg it looks better now.  What article is this supposed to point to? Sparafucil (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know about that link. History2007 (talk) 07:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Doing the math, following consensus

message: The text of this article makes a passing reference to "Huchmuth."  Is that simply a typo, or is there someone so named?  71.175.131.77 (talk) 22:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Typo - fixed.  TFD (talk) 23:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is "Hochmuth?" 

message: In summarizing Act V, the article discusses the protagonist's last words, "in hora mortis meae voca me." These words are taken from the Anima Christi, a traditional Latin Catholic prayer. The author claims that these words are "modally ambiguous: one could read subjunctive :'in the hour of my death may He call unto me' or imperative 'in the hour of my death, call unto me!'" This is incorrect; only the latter reading is acceptable. A subjunctive, as the author suggests, would read "in hora mortis meae vocet me" (may he call unto me), or perhaps "voces me" (may you call unto me). "Voca," however, can only possibly read as the imperative of "voco, vocare" (to call). This is in keeping with the general character of the Anima Christi, which is formulated as a series of imperative statements (e.g. "sanctifica me," "salva me," "exaudi me" - "sanctify me," "save me," "hear me").
It is possible that the author has here confused the Latin "voca" with the Italian. In Italian, "voca" can be either the imperative, as in the Latin, or the third-person present indicative, that is, "you call." Regardless, there is no possible Latin reading of the phrase "in hora mortis meae voca me" as an optative subjunctive; it can only be imperative.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.242.40.87 (talk) 15:24, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  In hora mortis meae voca me: A Translation Error