Talk:Robert P. George

message: How is it possible this article doesn't mention this dude's rabid homophobia?  Why?, because it's been carefully preened to avoid anything controversial. Excellent work, gentlemen!  You've mentioned to produce an article that leaves out everything you're ashamed of!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.29.20 (talk) 13:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand that, either.  I will remove the tag.--Bhuck (talk) 11:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Why is none of this sourced?
As a teenager he became active in politics, working as an intern on the staff of Ken Hechler, a pro-life liberal Democratic congressman representing West Virginia's fourth congressional district, and serving twice as Governor of the West Virginia Democratic Youth Conference. As late as 1976, he remained active in the Democratic Party, attending its national convention in New York City as an alternate delegate. As the Democratic Party moved leftward on moral and cultural issues, particularly abortion, he grew increasingly disaffected, and by 1984 identified himself as a political independent rather than as a Democrat. At the same time, by his own account, he began to question the efficacy of federal social welfare programs, and to worry about whether well-intentioned efforts to relieve poverty, especially in his native Appalachia, were in fact having the perverse effect of entrenching it. He grew particularly concerned about poor communities in both rural and urban areas where out-of-wedlock birth rates were skyrocketing, family stability was suffering, and large numbers of children were being reared in circumstances of fatherlessness. Although he remained convinced of the importance of a social safety net, he joined the emerging movement to reform social policies in ways that would strengthen the marriage culture and avoid undermining the autonomy and authority of key institutions of civil society, beginning with the family. He has called the marriage-based family "the original and best department of health, education, and welfare," and "a great bulwark against poverty."
In the early 1990s, he became close to Pennsylvania Governor Robert P. Casey, an outspoken pro-life Democrat, for whom he served as an informal advisor and speech writer. When Casey established an exploratory committee to plan a challenge to President Bill Clinton in the 1996 Democratic presidential primaries, George joined his fellow Princeton professor John DiIulio as co-chairman of the issues committee. Early in the campaign, however, Casey, who had undergone heart and liver transplantation surgery, withdrew for health reasons.
George was educated at Swarthmore College (BA), Harvard Law School (JD), Harvard Divinity School (MTS), and Oxford University (DPhil). At Oxford he studied under John Finnis and Joseph Raz.
On top of not being sourced - "strengthen the marriage culture?"  Marriage has a culture?  This sounds like he wrote this section himself, TBH.  "Marriage-based family?"  At the very least, "marriage culture" and "marriage-based family" ought to be in quotation marks, as they reek of POV.  On top of this, the "controversy" section is terribly incoherent.98.168.192.162 (talk) 11:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Looked like it was lifted almost verbatim from here. Have deleted it. - Nat Gertler (talk) 14:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Early Life and Education?

message: Presumably, a politically active, ardent Catholic with last name George who feels comfortable among evangelical Prostestants would be highly likely to have a Maronite background. (The Maronites are a Roman Catholic group from Lebanon, well known for energetically persuing a socially and religiously conservative agenda: See the Lebanese Front and the Falange). Can anyone comfirm?
--Philopedia (talk) 01:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maronite Background? 

message: I have deleted the Stanley Fish section, primarily over WP:BLP concerns (it has no sourcing, and can be read as Fish being easily swayed at debate.) However, I should also note that:
*It's in the "Disputes" section with no visible dispute, as Fish is shown as agreeing with George.
*The quote from George appears not to be a quote from the debate, but a quote from this letter, which was not clear in the paragraph.
As such, even if the general thrust becomes sourced, it is not clear that the paragraph belongs here. --Nat Gertler (talk) 01:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph has been reinserted with a couple of citations, but is still a WP:BLP concern because the source basically shows not that Fish had been hiding his views, but that two people - the moderator and Chuck Colson - had made other assumptions about his views. Additionally, it is still not a dispute, it still quotes material not from the event as if it were from the event, and really, while it says something that may be of interest in the Fish article, it's hard to see that this says something particularly important about George. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stanley Fish paragraph 

message: User:Roscelese tried to censor Wikipedia - she removed information about how Martha Nussbaum was criticized by Robert P. George. I have reverted her. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 05:47, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Waaaaah, censorship. It's poorly sourced. Find a secondary source that covers this "dispute" - George is certainly not a reliable source for claims about Nussbaum. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nussbaum's dispute with Robert George is important, and it should be mentioned in the article. I think the source is good enough. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not important unless secondary sources talk about it, and a right-wing PAC is not going to be an acceptable source for statements about a living person, where WP:BLP's strict sourcing rules apply. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's definitely important, and anyone following George's (and Nussbaum's) careers would know this very well. It needs to be covered, and if the previous source was not acceptable, then a new one must be found. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 21:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So find a source. You're the one who wants to add it; it's not my job. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange edits by User:Roscelese 

message: This article contains statements about Robert P. George sourced to Andrew Sullivan, an openly "gay" man and critic of George. Sullivan cannot possibly be neutral or objective about George. His comments should be removed from the article. To be completely clear about it, I don't believe that Mr. Sullivan should be used as a source in any article about conservative writers, least of all those who have criticized homosexuality. That was why I reverted the John Finnis article back to an earlier version (I reverted this article back to an older version for the same reason). Conservative Philosopher (talk) 21:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't looked at the articles, but usually, I'd disagree, since anti-non-heterosexual and non-heterosexual philosophies can coexist as long as there isn't clear hate involved. — Kudu ~I/O~ 22:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It really might help if you looked carefully at this article, and at present and past versions of John Finnis. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 22:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, no, someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect their reliability as a source. Enough of this trolling. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it does. I don't see a particular problem with the usage in the article, but in general, it at least requires more scrutiny. NYyankees51 (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're going to be discarding sources on the grounds of the writer's sexual orientation, race, gender, or religion, you really need to take a step back and consider whether Wikipedia is the right place for you. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

text: NYyankees51, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen on here in awhile. Using that logic, editors who are African-American could not edit articles about African-American related topics. You are showing a fundamental lack of understanding of NPOV. Kansan (talk) 04:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

text: We don't require sources not to have a POV, nor do we exclude reflecting the views of a subject's critics. Sullivan is a notable conservative writer. (Not, mind you, that the material is particularly critical of George.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 01:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

text: If you find a source that notes that George has not called himself a "theoconservative", then feel free to add it. However, this is not a page just for George's self-descriptors; he's free to do that on a website of his own. It's not a problem that we have some insight from someone who does not agree with George. (And Sullivan's not the only source which describes George as a theoconservative.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  As a homosexual, Sullivan cannot be objective about George, who is morally opposed to homosexuality. You need a different source, from someone who isn't a homosexual. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 02:52, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This encyclopedia would be a rather poor resource if we limited its sources to those that were positive about a given subject. If you want to work on a resource that discriminates against sources based on their sexual orientation, you may want to find another one. You may find less resistance at Conservapedia. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Moreover, it all depends what the "source" is being used for.  One can certainly cite to the political and personal opponents of someone to illustrate an aspect or episode of his life.  It is the article that needs to be objective in its overall assessment, not necessarily the sources.  Thus we could include Lincoln's assessment of Douglas or vice versa etc.  Our interlocutor's objections to Sullivan are thus a contrived and thinly veiled expression of homophobic animus to him, one that does neither Sullivan nor George justice.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.243.150.63 (talk) 06:20, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

text: User name makes sense. You're demanding that Wikipedia institutionalize homophobia. Using your "logic", all material authored by homophobes or critics of homosexuals and homosexuality must be removed because such people cannot be objective about the subject they are writing on. Of course it doesn't work that way. -- Jibal (talk) 06:56, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased material by Andrew Sullivan 

message: Wikipedia biographic articles usually start with a paragraph stating what a person is known for, or why the article is of public relevance. None of these criteria will be found in the entire biographical article of Mr. Robert P. George. Instead, it reads as a self-promoting mini biography that is inappropriate for publication in Wikipedia. I propose removal of the article and welcome your thoughts.
Best,
P.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pablufu (talk • contribs) 12:48, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article removal. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I removed the following addition to the lead: "He is opposed to abortion and same-sex marriage." Taken by itself that addition is uninformative and completely unhelpful. Many people are opposed to abortion and same-sex marriage, but it would usually be unencyclopedic to note that in the leads of articles about them. A statement that someone is opposed to something is meaningful and useful to readers only if it explains the basis for their opposition to it, what specifically they have done to oppose it, etc. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:14, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Safehaven86 (talk) 05:43, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140216215554/http://www.bradleyfdn.org/board_of_directors.asp to http://www.bradleyfdn.org/board_of_directors.asp
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I am about to undo most of your recent edits for problems of sourcing,
* The added professorships are unsourced.
* The added awards are sourced to a press release from Baylor, which was announcing George was involved in one of their projects. This makes it not a reliable source for boastful claims, nor a reasonable showing of the import of their claims.
*The claims about his views of Hilary Clinton were not found in the adjacent reference.
*A referenced and verifiable quote was deleted without a stated reason.
*The claims about who George voted for for president in 2016 are not fully supported by the tweet linked to. Even if we can show that the not-blue-checked account is George (and we probably can through other means), the tweet does not state what election he voted for Sasse in, and is not so contemporaneous with the 2016 presidential election to make that obvious. (And beyond that, there's the interesting question of the reliability non-contemporaneous self-reporting regarding an election in which one of the candidates proved problematic; I seem to recall some post-resignation studies that showed that very few people had voted for Nixon -- i.e., that people who had voted for Nixon were reluctant to admit to having done so,)
Taking a quick glance, it looks like there is weak sourcing on some of the material already in the article, but I do not have time to go through it all at the moment or in the near future. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:12, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: Very weak, and seems to be a result of this article being groomed by adherents. Perhaps we can get some additional sources now that the subject has attacked the depth of President Biden's faith, employing a criterion that seems both false (Biden has never had an abortion, counseled an abortion, or otherwise violated any Catholic tenet) and hypocritical (numerous politicians, Supreme Court Justices, etc. that George supports have stances and actions on capital punishment, fair wages, treatment of the poor and strangers, etc. that very much violate Catholic tenets): https://twitter.com/McCormickProf/status/1406309316722892804 -- Jibal (talk) 08:45, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  only one paragraph and citation of criticism 

message: Reads like a résumé and cover letter. No notable achievements and not worthy of a Wikipedia page EnWikieditor (talk) 17:42, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Professors holding named chairs are presumed notable, and there is sufficient coverage in independent reliable sources. I don't see reason to proceed with deletion. —C.Fred (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

text: His notability is clearcut. --Gilgul Kaful (talk) 07:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete article