Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche/Archive 8

message: I was researching for a paper on Nietzsche (and the Greeks) and came across Corssen's name. Wikipedia'd him and added a short section to the end of the article... if anybody here is interested in adding, removing, or editing my addition, please do so. Just figured this would be a good place to make this known. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Paul_Corssen#Influence_on_Friedrich_Nietzsche Thanks, -DWRZ 04:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Corssen and Nietzsche

message: I uploaded three photographs I took at the Nietzsche Archiv in Weimar, Germany on 2006.VII.16 to the Wikipedia Commons . I'm definitely not a good photographer, but feel free to use them if they contribute to the article. I selected the license kind of randomly, let me know if it's not really Wikipedia-ish and I'll change it. :) -DWRZ 04:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, a treasure hunt! excellent!Skomorokh 04:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Photographs of the Nietzsche Archiv in Weimar, Germany

message: it's great to see wikipedia as the stronghold of mediocrity...--james3443
my question is that surely i must be able to put in somewhere a small quote or what ever you like to call it to explain how powerful this influence has been ... as well as living on the street in my youth and fighting for freedom of expression all my life ... i have also studied - modern political thought and contemorary political philosophy with academics at phd level at goldsmiths college university of greenwich and the open university ... these globally respected professors at these colleges became my friends as well as mentors and supervisors and if you want their names to validate my credentials you can have them ... there are many other ways that i am working alongside many others to fight for freedom of expression in this world ... 
this is the forum to link our knowlege together ... ther is no such thing as objectivity in this style of writing all has a subjective dimension ... i am trying to bring the knowledge through translation and the aesthetics of music and performance to a wider audience ...
i hope you can help me with this who ever you are ...
the cardinal ...
:Hi. Thanks for your comment. Please understand that Nietzsche has affected the work of many people throughout the twentieth century. Can you really say, from a neutral point of view, that you are one of the (say) fifty most important of those people? (Writing from a neutral point of view is one of the founding tenets of Wikipedia, as is verifiability). We haven't mentioned, for example, Walter Benjamin, Theodore Adorno, Max Weber, or any of the many American philosophers, like Robert Solomon or John D. Caputo. You added an entire paragraph on yourself, equal to the size of the paragraph on contemporary thought. Surely you are not quite that important. I urge you to be reasonable and to consider the objectives of Wikipedia. — goethean ॐ 18:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another guideline on wikipedia is that you do not write about yourself - the idea is that if you are genuinely important in a field, someone else will write about you. If you write about yourself, whether you have an album about to come out or not, it smacks of vanity. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 22:20, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Unless you're VERY notable (which you don't seem to be) no one in the general public (i.e. apart from ur friends and family) could care less who had what influence on you when. I suggest you write something up and post it in a blog, or ur personal website or something. Wikipedia is not the place. Mikker (...) 22:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, his band already has an article: The Blood. — goethean ॐ 22:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly its nice to hear about somebody affected by Nietzsche who's not a normal academic living a life of timid sensibility. Also Could you, or anybody else, cite where Nietzsche expressed anger at any student of his not learning more than him?Itafroma 16:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: He'as referring to where Nietzsche quotes Zarathustra in Ecce Homo (and the corresponding passage in Zarathustra) where Z says that it is a poor student that doesn't surpass his master, or somesuch. Jung also quoted it when breaking with Freud, for similarily grandiose reasons I'd imagine. --GoodIntentionstalk 03:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.Itafroma 16:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Quoted the best I can: "A pupil who remains a student is a disappointment to his master." Kevin Baastalk 17:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  i am the cardinal (AKA Don't waste your time reading this) 

message: Schopenhauer described the loss of selfishness as the way to lead a moral and good life. According to him, egoism and selfishness are the prime causes of much pain and suffering in the world. The best people, for him, are those who deny themselves, like saints. Nietzsche reacted to this in a polar opposite, 180° manner. Nietzsche wanted a celebration and aggrandizement of the self. He considered selflessness to be a sickness. The highest types of humanity, according to Nietzsche, should exercise their will to power and affirm themselves. This doctrine of Nietzsche has never failed to attract people who feel themselves to be above most other humans. It has encouraged their self-absorption and justified their lack of compassion or concern for people other than themselves. In 1924, the Leopold and Loeb crime brought general disapproval of Nietzsche because he was one of the criminals' favorite authors and his teachings were thought to have contributed to the murder. In Germany,the National Socialists agreed with Nietzsche's praise of egoism and had no reservations about killing their opponents. The ethics of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche are directly opposite each other. Nietzsche's extreme affirmation of the self developed as a direct protest against Schopenhauer's extreme denial of the self.Lestrade 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes... and? Are you trying to do something more than add to the volumnious ranks of Nietzsche interpretation? --GoodIntentionstalk 03:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, you will learn that Schopenhauer praised self-denial and turning against the will to live. Nietzsche admitted that Schopenhauer was a very, very strong influence on him. Nietzsche reacted against Schopenhauer by praising self-affirmation and saying "yes" to life, in spite of some of its horrible qualities. By reading both authors, you will be able to see for yourself that Nietzsche's attitude was the exact opposite extreme of Schopenhauer's ethics.Lestrade 00:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Self Importance

message: I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information.  I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list.  Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article.  Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here.  Regards, Durova 17:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cultural depictions of Friedrich Nietzsche]] 

message: this article does -- Chris 18:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs more bread on its bones 

message: In the section on Nietzsche's move to Basel it is stated that "During his philological work in Basel he discovered that the ancient poetic meter related only to the length of syllables, different from the modern, accentuating meter."  
This is something that every schoolboy from the Dark Ages (to mark the exact time when accentual meter began to be used in the Romance languages) knew; in Constantinople ditto.  It's no discovery at all.
The inserter of this statement must be referring to something and perhaps got it garbled.  What could this statement be trying to refer to in reality?
Ottocs 09:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe this was known in Constantinopel, Athens and Rome from the Dark Ages - but it was NOT known to German philologists in the 19th century. That is the point. See Nietzsche's letter to Carl Fuchs from April 1886 about this topic. --Klingsor 21:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I posted my response to Ottocs' question on his talk page 1 1/2 months ago, see User talk:Ottocs. If you can help to get this point right, please do so.--Chef aka Pangloss 16:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your source for Nietzsche's metrics? It's not in the article now. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nietzsche's classical "discovery"??? 

message: Why are there no critics of Nietzsche listed?  ken 21:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Chesterton wrote something if I remember correctly. The best critique I know is a biographical one: Stefan Zweig's The Struggle with the Daimon. The last time I visited the US it was out of print but it's available in German. —Cesar Tort 07:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased article.  Why are there no critics of Nietzsche listed 

message: Ok, I spammed the entire article with links to polemic.  I don't know if I should have, if you want, be bold and revert everything but the first link.  -Slash- 05:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Link Spamming

message: Also, the article needs a clear link to the philosophy article. -Slash- 03:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Philosophy

message: By the second half of the 20th century he had become regarded as a highly significant and influential figure in modern philosophy. Last sentence of the intro paragraph, understatement of the 20th century? How about him founding and introducing the very concepts that we consider modern philosophy. He was years ahead of his time and advanced philosophy further than anyone had or has.
:No, actually, the article was right in saying that "Nietzsche's contemporaries largely overlooked him during his short yet productive working life, which ended with a mental collapse in 1889." His books didn't even sell well. And modern philosophy's champion is not Nietzsche, but rather one of Nietzche's "impossibles," Kant. Nietzsche would be more in line with postmodern philosophy, having influenced its supposed contributors like Heidegger, Foucault and Derrida. Moonwalkerwiz 04:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is fairly obvious that both the article and whoever wrote that meant "modern philosophy" in a "modern" and not "modernist" sense. Assuming the latter would even prove to be impossible as postmodernism is one of the schools of modern philosophy (as in the philosophy of today or the 20th century) and not an epoch during which Nietzsche could be said to have become known to a wider audience. Staretsen 17:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, assuming that postmodernism is a school of modernist philosophy is already a modernist view. In fact, you are the one who are conceiving of the movement as an "epoch" after modernism. You're describing history as a linear progression of ideas. Nietzsche himself said that "Some men are born posthumously" obviously referring to his ideas as not in accordance with the conventions of his time. That is postmodernist thinking, because he views his ideas as not part of modern philosophy but something else entirely. For that reason, he can be considered a postmodernist with his critique or reason, of human development and essentialism. Moonwalkerwiz 01:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Understatement 

message: I added a template for an organized debate on Nietzsche. One of the goals of this debate is to improve the contents of an article. This talk page is overcrowded with templates at the moment. Perhaps some of the templates can be merged or removed.--Daanschr 16:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Organized debate

message: I have read most of Nietzsche's Why I am so Wise and, although I have left the book at home and am now at the University of Guelph, I believe that Nietzsche claimed to be Polish in the book. I recall him claiming to be purely Polish and not in the least German. Nietzsche went on to insult German diet and claimed it was a cause of their rigid disposition (these are not his words, but they are of a similar affect).
I hate to make these claims without the book on hand to site, but if anyone does have a copy of the work in question, it would be an interesting addition to the page to note that Nietzsche claimed to be Polish, perhaps an early sign of psychological illness.
JackdeGaul 08:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or because of his anti-nationalism.--Daanschr 13:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussed at length here, here, here and here with most of the relevant sources, especially Hans von Müller: Nietzsches Vorfahren, ed. by Richard Frank Krummel and Evelyn Krummel in Nietzsche-Studien 31 (2002). - Why I am so wise is not a book by Nietzsche, but a chapter in Ecce Homo.--Chef aka Pangloss 17:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

text: So Mencken got it wrong, too, because he thought his source, which seems to be Elisabeth's biography, to be reliable. Have you read the sources I linked to?--Chef aka Pangloss 17:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nietzsche - Polish? 

message: Could someone add something about his musical work please? XdiabolicalX 22:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the IV volume of Curt Paul Janz monumental biography on Nietzsche there are a few pages of N's music MS: an oratory, a song and an hymn. —Cesar Tort 07:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music 

message: The picture I have uploaded is of the quality and time in which Nietzsche is today most often depicted, and also more representative of the Fröhliche Wissenschaft-Zarathustra-Jenseits period, which as an epoch arguably in turn is more representative of Nietzsche than those of earlier works such as Geburt der Tragödie, from which the older image is taken. Therefore, it should in my opinion be favoured over the old one. Staretsen 18:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is such a specious position it borders on supreme imbecility. How is the time at which the picture was taken relevant at all? The aim for the now current picture is to provide a clear view of Nietzsche's face, although it is certainly different from the most common (and dull) one that can be seen anywhere and everywhere. Please save your "therefore"s for genuine arguments and not ones that aim merely to assert your purportedly "more representative" trivialities of "quality".My retsino 18:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Talk:Friedrich_Nietzsche/Archive_6#Photo Here is the last conversation on the image. The image that you prefer is ubiquitous. The one I prefer is rarely seen. If you look at the rest of that talk page, you may see why I revert without consulting this page. — goethean ॐ 03:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that was the very point of my argument. Should not the picture of reference (that is, the top one) in an encyclopedic article be that one which is most often seen - ubiquitous, if you like - and not one which is not, only for the purpose of someone's taste for variation? Staretsen 23:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is my taste for variation less of a concern than your taste for uniformity? — goethean ॐ 17:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the picture and Goethean's revert 

message: Someone please enlighten me as to why Nietzsche's birthday needs to be in the opening sentence when it is there, again, below his portrait; and why his IPA (what I assume is a phonetic pronounciation) is there, too. I feel it would add to the general readability and elegance of this page to move the IPA as well as omitting the birth/death dates. I would like to hear others' opinions on this. -Bordello 04:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the birth and death dates seem to be pretty standard for biographical entries, and the IPA guide is helps people know how to pronounce his name, also pretty standard for entries that are difficult to pronounce.  So I'm reverting to the previous version.  RJC Talk 16:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundancy, elegance 

message: I think the "key concepts" section of the article is very poor and its contents do not correspond to the heading.
I would hope someone could make a clear, very short summary of Nietzsche's main contributions to philosophy. This is exactly what I was looking for when I came to this article and could not find it.
Thank you.
Steveq34 17:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a biographical article. There is another article on Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche, which should be prominently linked to in the intro of this article. — goethean ॐ 18:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Moonwalkerwiz. The existing section is poor, and (as happened to Steveq34) people are going to come to this article expecting to find some indication of why this guy's thought is important. I agree with the list that Moonwalkerwiz proposes (plus Death of God). Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 21:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree; I was just explaining the current state of things. Although Septentrionalis/PMAnderson has a good point. — goethean ॐ 21:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Key concepts" section 

message: Does anyone know if modern classicists take seriously the concepts of the Apollonian or Dionysiac? 152.23.84.168 02:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure some do, but I can't say I've run across them.  RJC Talk 15:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apollonian/Dionysiac 

message: Perhaps this has been settled already, but is there a consensus about Nietzsche's family supposedly being of Polish descent? I've seen this discussed elsewhere, including the German and Polish Wiki articles on Nietzsche, although I don't understand enough Polish to know what the latter says.
Today's chuckle:  As a student back in the '60s, I remember seeing the grafito, "Nietzsche is pietzsche" — based alas on mispronounciation of the name.  Sca 18:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The name is apparently Polish, but both his parents were German AFAIK, although Germany didn't become a unified country until 1870. They were inhabitants of Saxony, a province of Prussia, so the Nietzsche family would probably have thought of themselves as Prussians at the time of Fredrich's birth. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 18:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: In a nutshell: Nietzsche lied in Ecce homo about his Polish ancestry. —Cesar Tort 06:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Polish?

message: hi all, i added a section detailing the SUP's new versions of nietzsche's works to the nietzsche article, primarily because the current english translations of nietzsche's work (kaufmann etc) are fairly poor and i thought it would be useful to drum up some more support.  it seems their well has dried up and there hasn't been a book released in the series in several years, although i spoke with them in an email and they said another volume is due later this year.
i did the same in the carl jung article about the philemon foundation, hoping perhaps some richer people than i might find out and donate to it so i can read some more of his work without having to wait perhaps thirty years before it gets published :)
the text of the section was as follows:
Stanford University Press
			
-	Stanford University Press has started the process of preparing a new edition of the collected works of Nietzsche in English, although the last new title in the series appeared in 1999. Three works have emerged so far:	 
-		 
-	* Unfashionable Observations (1995)	 
-	* Human, All Too Human (I) (1997)	 
-	* Unpublished Writings from the period of Unfashionable Observations (1999)	 
-		 
-	See http://www.sup.org/browse.cgi?x=series&y=The%20Complete%20Works%20of%20Friedrich%20Nietzsche for more details.
anyway, considering that both of these sections represent major (20+ year) projects devoted to the new translations to replace the old ones for scholars and students, should we still mention them on wikipedia or not?
note: the change is here, deleted by Madhava http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Friedrich_Nietzsche&diff=prev&oldid=109277201
best regards,
dave —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.247.227.213 (talk) 21:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, should definitely be included, maybe on a subsection dedicated to "Editions of Nietzsche". I am still amazed that Mazzino Montinari's editions of the posthumous fragments have not been completely translated to English. Lapaz 12:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the section on stanford university press, removed recently 

message: Perhaps Nietzsche does provide something in the way of (simple-minded) descriptions of the fucked up nature of the world (ie: the irrational basis of politics).  I doubt that the Nietzschean way is the easiest way, or the best way.  But still, that assumes that there is a Nietzschean way (I believe that many have asserted that Nietzsche does not propose any system of human existence, merely that all systems of human existence seem to have certain properties – certainly such an observation seems true for 'the will to power', which does seem to be overly popular due to its simple minded explanations for the whole of human existence).  
Anyhow, the article misses coherent criticism of Nietzsche's philosophy.  Also, was Nietzsche any good at Mathematics?  I doubt it, anyone as messed up in the head as he appears to have been could not be good at mathematics!  
Is Nietzschean philosophy compatible with the notion of absolute and objective truth (which DOES exist – as has probably been well demonstrated within physics, for example)?  Of course not!  Nietzsche doesn't believe it the absolute truth!  So why does anyone even read him, let alone write about him?  Nietzsche's only contribution to the world is to try to justify why it is so f***ed up by making it more f***ed up with his non-existent philosophical system.  
Anyhow, someone fetch me his Maths results from the University of Basel – I bet a wager that he wasn't that good at it.  
Nukemason4 22:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NEED MORE NIETZSCHE CRITICISMS

message: As Nietzsche doesn't believe in the absolute/supreme truth of reality – that makes him a shit mathematical philosopher (not that he has ever been espoused as one).  
Any comments on this?
Nukemason4 22:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an excellent question and definitely worthy of inclusion. I suggest you create a section entitled 'Nietzsche and nuclear weaponry' and fill it with your thoughts, observations and whimsical asides. It might also be important to consider Nietzsche's relation to the internal combustion engine and vampires, particularly in the light of Kierkegaards groundbreaking work in the area. I wish nothing but the best in your endeavours. Skomorokh 23:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nietzsche and Mathematical Philosophy

message: I noticed that some nihilist changed the image at the top of the entry to a disturbing doctored version of the same photograph in which Fritz has a third eye in the middle of his forehead. It went unnoticed for some time. Be on the lookout.--76.188.161.254 04:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandalism... 

message: Can someone explain to me how Nietzsche can be both Wagnerite and Anti-Wagnerite?
80.114.26.224 10:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To put it simply, he used to be an admirator of Wagner, but broke with him later on. He criticized his return to Christianism, his anti-Semitism, and his conception of art & of the "genius" (). He also criticized his conception of master & disciples, thinking that Wagner did not allow his disciples to grow on their own — Wagner apparently wanted Nietzsche to apply to philosophy his own artistic conceptions. The Case of Wagner and Nietzsche contra Wagner explain his opposition to him. Music was very important to Nietzsche. Lapaz 12:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, in the first chapter (I believe) of Ecce Homo, Nietzsche qualifies himself both as a "decadent" and as the reverse of a decadent:
"The good fortune of my existence, its uniqueness perhaps, lies in its fatality: expressing it in the form of a riddle, as my own father I am already dead, as my own mother I still live and grow old. This double origin, as it were from the highest and lowest rung of the ladder of life, at once décadent and beginning—this, if anything, explains that neutrality, that freedom from party in relation to the total problem of life, which perhaps distinguishes me. I have a subtler sense [Witterung: i.e., scent, as in a hunt] for the signs of ascent and descent than any man has ever had, I am the teacher par excellence for this—I know both, I am both.—" (Why I Am So Wise, (here)"
And also, §2 of same chapter:
"Setting aside the fact that I am a décadent, I am also its antithesis. My proof for this is, among other things, that I always instinctively chose the right means against wretched states: while the décadent as such always chooses means that are disadvantageous for him. As summa summarum [overall] I was healthy, as niche, as specialty I was a décadent."
As he has analyzed the "Case of Wagner" as a symptom of decadence, there is a relationship between all of this. Lapaz 13:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Anti-)Wagnerite? 

message: I have started a discussion regarding the Infobox Philosopher template page concerning the "influences" and "influenced" fields.  I am in favor of doing away with them.  Please join the discussion there.  RJC Talk 14:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influences and Influenced 

message: I am surprised there was no reference to LMS in this article...i added a bit at the end, but I know it will get deleted... :( 
Interpolarity 18:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If that is suitable for the article, it should come in the "trivia" section. —Cesar Tort 19:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You were right: another editor removed it. What about placing Beyond Good and Evil (film) instead? —Cesar Tort 23:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Little Miss Sunshine

message: Could somebody please check the new article Max Oehler for grammar and spelling errors (and style etc.)? I translated it from the German article I wrote. It might be quite interesting for the Nietzsche reception; I could also try to add more information by request. Please also have a look at the German article about the :de:Nietzsche-Archiv, which right now runs for "featured article".--Chef aka Pangloss 16:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oehler