Talk:Australian Football League/Archive 1

message: I think it might be an idea to replace the template on the side of each individual club with an infobox. It'd be considerably more useful, anyway. Ambi 11:31, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I just had that idea myself, although I've updated the team navbox to a template - it can still be changed to a footer template and the infobox go up the top. I'll try and come up with something shortly. Incidently, I assume that the team logos would be copyright? T.P.K. 05:43, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Australian_Football_League article, and they have been placed on this page for your convenience.Tip: Some people find it helpful if these suggestions are shown on this talk page, rather than on another page. To do this, just add  to this page. — LinkBot 01:00, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:LinkBot/suggestions/Australian_Football_League|Link suggestions]] 

message: I have moved future expansion from the Aussie rules article. It may need editing to fit this article better. Bjmurph 09:19, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future Expansion 

message: Does this section really belong here?  It's a notable team and worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia but the selection of non-V/AFL players suggests it really belongs in Australian rules football or perhaps an Australian indigenous sport article.--The Brain of Morbius 11:42, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aboriginal Team of the Century 

message: A few soccer fundamentalists are hijacking the term football in Australian articles. See, for example, Category:Football_in_Australia. We need concerted action to stop this. Grant65 | Talk 10:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Help!

message: I am about to delete from the article history those revisions whose content and/or edit summaries libel Xtra, per Wikipedia's libel policy. Selective deletion requires full deletion followed by selective restoration. Therefore this article will be deleted for a very brief period of time.. Snottygobble 04:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Complete. Snottygobble 04:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Selective deletion

message: I think the clubs list should be set up like the one on NRL, with the table of team logos.
:I disagree. This article is for factual information on the AFL - not a gallery of team logos. Presentations like that dont belong in encyclopedia articles. Remy B 12:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably displaying the logos in a table is a violation of fair use, anyway. pfctdayelise (translate?) 01:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clubs list 

message: This arguement has come to my attention on the NRL site and it may help us get the logos back. What you see now is a copy of a person's view on it on the NRL discussion:
:This ludicrous injustice has just come to my attention. In my opinion, the logos are not used in a decorative manner at all, but as the Fair Use guidelines state, should be used "for identification". Now of course, everyone has their own opinion, but if something does come from this issue then we can fight it all the way. --mdmanser 12:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Policy #8 of Wikipedia:Fair use says that The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose.. This article is about the league in general, so the specific details of the teams belong on the team pages, which to me implies that in this article the team logos are serving a decorative purpose. What I would like to know is how we can get a definite answer on this particular case, because if it comes down to individual interpretation then we may as well switch back and forth between using them and not. Remy B 09:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you will find the general attitude towards logos and other fair use images is to discourage them as much as possible, because they undermine our status as a completely free content project, which is after all one of the core ideas. WP:FU says: This is because it is the policy of the Wikimedia Foundation to allow an unfree image only if no free alternative exists and only if it significantly improves the article it is included on. For this reason logos in lists and basically anywhere where they're out of context, is strongly being discouraged. I think you will be fighting a losing battle on this one. I would concentrate on (A) procuring free images to improve AFL articles and (B) improving the text content. Just my 2c --pfctdayelise (translate?) 10:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to see the logos there too, but they are copyrighted material and using them in this way is absolutely not fair use. The key to fair use with images is the text needs to directly refer to the subject of the image. If we take the West Coast Eagles logo as an example, it is fair use only when the subject under discussion is the West Coast Eagles logo, and your sole purpose in displaying the image is to show what the logo looks like. It is not fair use if the image is used to indirectly signify the West Coast Eagles club, or to show what an eagle looks like, or for any other purpose not directly related to the logo per se. For example, you can fairly use the West Coast Eagles logo in article West Coast Eagles, because that article is an appropriate place to discuss and illustrate the club's logo, and the purpose of displaying the logo is to show what the logo looks like. If you knew who designed the West Coast Eagles logo, you could fairly use the logo in an article about the designer, as an illustration of their work, again because the subject under discussion is the logo itself, and your purpose in displaying the logo is to show what the logo looks like. You could even make a fair use case for using it in article Eagle, not to illustrate an eagle but to illustrate a cultural reference to eagles in sports marketing, because the subject under discussion is the logo itself and the purpose of displaying it is to display the logo itself. But in this article, the proposed use of the logos is not to show what the logo looks like. The purpose is to provide an attractive visual cue that signifies the West Coast Eagles. The logo is not a subject of discussion in the article. Therefore not fair use. Snottygobble 11:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd like to see a response on this. Rogerthat Talk 08:26, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My response is now on the NRL talk page. In short, they shouldn't be using logos either. Snottygobble 11:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Getting The Logo's back

message: Obviously it is not actually "necessary" to inlude "Melbourne" in the location for teams based in Melbourne, so I don't want to make a big deal out of it. However, it does seem to do nothing but remove information that could be helpful to a reader who does not know that these places are suburbs of Melbourne. The "Melbourne" (and "Adelaide") seem particularly appropriate given that the heading in the table is "city", and Hawthorn, Collingwood, etc aren't exactly cities. Is there really any need to leave the information out? JPD (talk) 16:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Melbourne" in list of teams 

message: I was planning to add  here but there's an infobox already... --Howard the Duck 09:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|Infobox sports league}} 

message: I think the article needs a clean up so that a feature article nomination could hopefully go through and make the AFL a feature article. Things like historical records could be moved and linked so that it’s not as long and it’s a little cleaner. We should take a look at the FA Premier League page which is a feature article as an idea to how this page can be improved. AFL45 06:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feature Article nomination 

message: I want to make some points regarding the reversion I just did now.
#Umpires are wearing orange uniforms instead of white uniforms in a number of metorpolitan and country football leagues so this tradition is NOT exclusive to the AFL.
#Banners when teams enter the playing arena are regular fixtures on metropolitan and country grand final days and also show up at junior games for milestones so again this tradition is NOT exclusive to the AFL.
#I am yet to see a local football club that does not have a club song.
I apologise for labelling the revert "rvv" (this isn't vandalism and I didn't realise I'd put two v's until after I'd clicked on 'Save Page') - but this stuff belongs on the Australian Rules Football page, not here. Curse of Fenric 06:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that banners and soings are traditional parts of football at many levels, and that they should possibly be mentioned at the other page, but that's not a reason to not have them here. As for orange umpires, however widespread the practice is, it's hardly been going long enough to call it a tradition. JPD (talk) 13:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With the banners and the songs, fair comment. I was concerned with the way it was written (ie only the AFL do it - which is not true at all) and the fact that it had been removed from the other page. That's why I took it out here. Definitely agree with you about the orange umpires (or any other colour come to that). Frankly I would prefer them to go back to white. Curse of Fenric 22:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditions 

message: Noticed you removed worldfootynews.com link and I was a little bemused. The site reports on international footy, but it also reports on the AFL where it is relevant to international Aussie Rules. As the AFL is the de facto 'keeper of the code', they get quite a mention.
Look at the most recent articles on the site:</br>
4 of the last 10 are relevant to current/past AFL players.</br>
If you head back a little further there are articles like:</br>
http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php?story=20061109092808429</br>
http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php?story=20060918124403637</br>
http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php?story=2006063006252654</br>
I acknowledge that it isn't exactly reporting on the weeks scores etc. but it is giving you information (on the AFL) that other media sources either don't cover, cover late, or only cover briefly. 40010 01:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As you say, "relevant to 'international Aussie Rules". That's why it doesn't belong here. It belongs on the Australian Rules Football page. The fact that the AFL is the "defacto keeper of the code" is actually irrelevant. Curse of Fenric 08:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: So basically you're saying that the AFL wikipage is only relevant for the league in Australia and pretty much shouldn't mention anything about players born overseas (like Mal Michael - the centre of the recent draft controversy), exhibition matches overseas or even the International Rules series. As for your comment: "The fact that the AFL is "defacto keeper of the code" is actually irrelevant." - on what grounds? 40010 11:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't quite see what you're getting at here. Obviously the AFL is relevant to WFN, partly as it's position as de facto keeper of the code. That doesn't mean that every website with stories about Aussie rules including the AFL is sufficiently relevant to this article about the AFL in particular. In an article on the AFL, players like Mal Michael should be mentioned as much as any other players - their place of birth is not particularly relevant. WFN does do a good job of bringing to light some less heard stories that are signficant from a particular angle, but the point is that they are generally not that important in the general context of the league. The main point is that Wikipedia is not meant to be a link directory - we already have enough links (the AFL site, stats sites, and major news sites) in this article, and WFN isn't of the same relevance as those. Of course, if WFN contains any information important enough to be in the article (which is the point of Wikipedia, not the external links), then it should be added, with WFN as a source. JPD (talk) 14:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WFN Link