Talk:Casualties of the 2006 Lebanon War

message: Someone, please verify or modify the following claim: "Many civilians have left their homes in northern Israel and went south. Some Israeli cities and villages near the Israeli-Lebanese border have been deserted, such as Kiryat Shmona and Nahariya, from fear of rockets and mortar fire." What I have found is the following, in the Israeli newpaper Jerusalem Post: "Of the town's [Kiryat Shmona] 25,000 citizens, only around 5,000 are estimated to still be here" (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291951803&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull); and "Nahariya has a population of 56,000. The municipality has no statistics on how many people have fled south but the residents who remain behind confirm that well over half the population has left" (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291974295&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull). PJ 08:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kiryat Shmona & Nahariya 

message: Do we only include those from bomb attacks and shellings by the IDF? Do we also include those who got killed in accidents?
http://newsinfo.inq7.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=13378
No, unless the accident was caused by military actions. --Iorek85 02:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualty questions 

message: (The following refers to the data as found in the grid.) The claim that over 1,300 israelis have been wounded may very well be accurate. However, it is not borne out by the cited source. According to the source, Ynet, 1293 israelis have been hurt or injured. Further, the claim that 189 israeli soldiers have been wounded, is not substantiate by the provided sources either. According to the first source, "Mideast Casualties at a Glance", nine soldiers have been wounded and 326 civilians. The second source, the KBCI link, appears to be dead. Please explain or make the appropriate changes. PJ 11:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I does not make sense for me to put  there, since there already was a source cited. The problem was that the figures were dishonestly cited; they did not correpond with the figures actually mentioned in the sources. All I did was to change the data so that it matches the cited sources (i.e. I did not insert any other sources). If someone wants to change the figures, they need to provide the article with other sources and cite them correctly. Furthermore, I do not think that we shold use Hebrew sources unless we have to. If we do, there is no way for a non-Hebrew speaking person to check the accuracy of the sources. And we cannot expect from a user of the English version of Wikipedia to know Hebrew. So, to the extent that we can, we should use sources in English. And I am sure, that there are plenty of data in english, that we do not need to use Hebrew sources. PJ 17:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Further, I do not see how the cited sources support the claim that 214 israeli soldiers have been wounded. The first source states that 9 israeli soldiers have been wounded, and the second source appears to be dead. What is going on here?!PJ 17:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The number "9" IDF-soldiers wounder is a bit funny, when U can read in media, that just in fightings on August 12, 70 israeli soldiers were injured (BBC), and Sky News is telling about "more than 100 wounded (just on saturday)   --imi2 04:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read what I have written above. It is very likely that the number of israeli soldiers wounded exceeds 9. However, it is very important that we cite our sources correctly. And the sources cited for that particular data stated that 9 soldiers have been wounded. Again, if you can find a newer and trustworthy source stating a higher number of wounded israeli soldiers, then of course we need to update this article to reflect that. So, I am all for that. Nevertheless, we should not under any circumstances falsify our sources or misrepresent data, as was the case when the article stated 200 while citing one inaccessible source and another source indicating that 9 soldiers have been wounded! PJ 21:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wounded Israelis

message: Under the casualties list for the United States, it is listed that one military person, a American serving in the IDF, was killed. He should not be listed as an american. Under US law, joining a foriegn army is understood as saying that you no longer want to be a US citizen. So the moment he enlisted into the IDF, his US citizenship was voided, and he can no longer be considered a citizen. So technicly, he did not die as an americain, but only as an israeli. Im not trying to be mean, but its the law, he wasnt American. --Dimigw 01:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, nevermind, i did a little more research, apparently that law does not apply to Israel. Every other country yes, but you can fight in the Israeli army and still keep your citizenship.--Dimigw 01:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't he be under the military column, not civilian?  I'd change it, but I'm afraid I'd break the formatting out of stupidity.  --W0lfie 02:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Death 

message: it should be noted that who killed who.Khosrow II 17:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel killed most of these people 

message: Total wounded numbers does not sum correctly — PatoDonald 03:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total 

message: An article that you have been involved in editing, Israeli fatalities of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, has been listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israeli fatalities of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. Please look there to see why this is, if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. 
Total victory for the forces of wikipedia quality!--Cerejota 08:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AfD Nomination: [[Israeli fatalities of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict]] 

message: I have removed the casualties because they are not mentioned in any of the sources I have read. I also did it in the infobox in the main article where the article given as source didn't have any mention. Please be responsible with sourcing. If you restore, please provide sources.--Cerejota 09:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lebanese Communist Party 

message: Now listen as 119, but Hezbolla claims 130, the point is, there were many wounded. This will not change now, but can we be sure 119 is correct? It's important to know this, some casualties are not reported, especially if they work for mossad or if certain soldiers were conducting secret operation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.220.108 (talk) 
:Mossad dont work with soldiers, they don't conduct military operations at all. Mossad work inside enemy population and if they were exposed and killed we would certanly hear about it. I also dont see any point in hiding 11 casualties. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.110.38.112 (talk) 10:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite true. Israel generals may be lying, since they lied very often Nielswik(talk) 05:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Idf dead

message: The pie chart needed sourcing and proper captioning. I placed the contradict tag on the article because the percentages did not match the figures in the current article, and I could not see how to get them to match the September 9th version either, but was hoping another editor with more expertise would resolve it. User Clintonesque removed the chart, which seems a poor way to resolve the problem. One suggestion would be a new chart using figures sourced in a similar way to the table. Another might be two charts, one the IDF view, the other the Hezbollah view. I'm not entering a revert war here, but wish to repeat that removing without discussing is not productive. -Wikianon 03:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you miss the point about this chart, which is not about missing sources nor proper captioning. Please read the discussions above. The main issues are as follows: (1) The chart adds nothing to the information in the article - in fact, as you noted, it contradicts some of it (2) It was added to the article in explict vioaltion of WP:POINT, by an editor who wanted to make the (disputed) point that  most of the casualties were Lebanese civilians  (3) most importantly, the chart, being a pie chart, can only present one set of numbers. In this case we have multiple such sets, since the figures (specifically, the Hezbollah casualties and the Lebanese civilian casualties) are disputed, and range from 74 Hezb dead to 700+ Hezb dead, and correspondingly, from about 1100 Lebanese civilians dead to leas than 400 Lebanese civilans dead. Picking any one set of these numbers is inherently POV. Isarig 03:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isarig, don't insist on 400 civilian casualties, see my comment on "compromise suggestion" sectionNielswik(talk) 03:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not insisting on anything - I am happy with the table that has multiple claims - Hezb says 74, UN says 500, Israel says 440 identified and 700 estimated, and lebanese sources say 700+. readers can evaluate these competing claims, and decide which one is more credible. It is you and Carbonate who are insisting on using only the Hezb figures in the chart. Isarig 04:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: You do not run WP, nor this page, and statements like "The chart will go up and stay up for a month" might make you feel good for a couple of minutes, but will have little effect on reality. The chart is POV for reasons described above, and you need to address those concerns rather than resorting to your bullying ways of repeatedly erisnerting it over multiple editors' objections, with edit summaries telling people to "back off". Isarig 22:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Hey try to say something about this from Israeli media Nielswik(talk) 09:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: or this AFP  article which clearly say 1287 Lebanese killed and at least 1140 of them are confirmed to be civilians. If we substract thsi number, and also 43 Lebanese army and police and 17 Amal militia, then we have at most 87 hezbollah.  Nielswik(talk) 09:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Lebanese police is neutral because it wasnt involved in the conflict and is very reliable. At least it won't say hezbollah is civilian Nielswik(talk) 17:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lebanon was a part of the confilict so of course its not natural.We should accept UN number that talks about 500+ Hizballa dead.Shrike 18:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Lebanon did nothing except being turned into rubble. It won't say Hezbollahs are civilians, right?Nielswik(talk) 02:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lebanon was an active participant in the hostilities, and even if it wasn't, it is of course not a neutral party here. Regardless, that is no tthe issue. The issue is that you can't use a chart which presents only one set of numbers when these nubers are disputed. Isarig 16:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Continuing to add the chart in won;t make it either more neutral or more accepted. There are neutral accepted numbers noted on the page alongside both POVs' data. If a pie-chart is necessary for any reason, then it can follow the compromise reached above. TewfikTalk 07:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Pie chart is very controversial 

message: ::And why did you revert the paragraph about an Indonesian killed?Nielswik(talk) 17:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was mistake sorry.Shrike 18:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Hi Isarig, let me know what problem you have with an Indonesian killedNielswik(talk) 02:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Indonesian killed

message: 12 of my cousins died , 11 out 185 homes remained standing , i dont see why no one asked us about shock therapy( the fumes of this israeli arrognance is disgusting ) , and on the usage of wounded , come one you have to be kidding me , i think the world or atleast 5 % of it realizes what is said in the usage of wounded by variations...... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.226.66 (talk) 13:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the Israeli civilian casualties are somewhat inflated. There are way too many more "wounded" than could possibly be true. From US Army statistics it can be concluded that for every dead there will be three wounded, of which one will never fully recover (seriously wounded) and two will recover within months (lightly wounded) given medical care. There is nothing magic about this 3:1 relationship, it is merely a manifestation of the way explosives work, doing most of its damage close to the impact. MX44 09:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is simply because of the Weapons that Hezbollah purpeosely used. A wounded man during a war makes much more trouble than ten dead ones. Hezbollah was interested in wounding, not killing ppl. Just read a little about the war. It's all known, just doesn't express in tables like this. 62.214.198.46 18:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The page included both the sum and the breakdown side by side. I've elminated this by leaving in the full breakdown. Also a lot of these figures were out of date, so I moved some figures and sources in from the main article. — George [talk] 09:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: George, you upped the number of Lebanese civilians wounded, leaving the number of Hezbollah wounded still at zero (which is not very likely.) Is this an effect of confused reporting, so that in reality those casualties actually should have been accounted to Hezbollah? MX44 10:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I upped the number of Lebanese citizens wounded, not civilians (see the note underneath them - the Lebanese government doesn't release details on the breakdown of these figures). We don't have any figures for Hezbollah's wounded, so it should indeed be left blank for now. This chart should likely be reformatted at some point. The breakdown of civilian versus military deaths is extremely confusing in this conflict, given the mixing of militants and civilians in figures, and the lack of accurate estimates. I might look into displaying the data differently in the coming days. — George [talk] 10:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ahh ... OK! MX44 10:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Page is sickening  

message: According to the page itself you cant say that majority of killed were Lebanese civilians. Between 250-700 Hezbollah militants were killed out of 1191 Lebanese citizens.--Shrike 06:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This statement should not have been included without citations, though it's also improper to remove it without first requesting citations. I've replaced it with a new statement, with sufficient citations of course, while noting that the issue is somewhat disputed (although I've never seen it disputed anywhere but on Wikipedia). — George [talk] 08:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its already stated in the article on lebanise death toll section.Why it should emphasised as part of the intro?--Shrike 09:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An introduction is a summary, not an emphasis. I agree the introduction should be expanded, and I fully invite you to do so. — George [talk] 09:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry you didn't answered my concerns. The part about Lebanese dead emphasized in the intro .Why? It’s already mentioned in the article in relevant section.--Shrike 15:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I stated, it is not an attempt to emphasize anything, but to summarize the article. It is not a full summary of the article, and as such the introduction should be expanded to include summary information on Israeli civilian and military casualties, Hezbollah casualties, as well as Lebanese army and third party (UN) casualties during the conflict. — George [talk] 19:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Until its done the undue wieght given to Lebanise civilian.I will delete it from the intro becouse such information already exist in the article.--Shrike 20:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, you should probably look up what the policy on undue weight is, as it has to do with giving minority opinions too much information. Second, since apparently you're too busy to expand this section yourself, I'll do so instead. — George [talk] 20:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The intoduction has been expanded to include the various groups. I've left out most of the references, as we generally avoid tagging too many in introductions. If there are specific things you feel require citations, please feel free to tag them. — George [talk] 20:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The Israeli section clearly says how many civilians have died.
There is no such section for the Lebanese.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.195.202 (talk) 02:08, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does this article obscure the number of dead Lebanese civilans? Why isn't Human Rights Watch cited?