Talk:St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide)

message: Username Nought, please refer to your user talk page for your first (and hopefully only) vandalism warning. Your continual Abuse of Tags is in contravention of Wikipedia's vandalism policy. Your addition of 'citation needed' tags has been, for the most part, completely unjustified (and by 'unjustified', I mean unjustified with respect to Wikipedia's Policy on such tags, not unjustified in your own mind). Ryan Oceros 17:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism Warning

message: Dispute: Can a college roll book be used to claim high-profile people attended the school?
Comments from previous discussion:
*Nought, your logic is so flawed, and I hope you will see that. How can a record be "self-serving", or rather as the Guideline says, overly self-serving? The nature of the material precludes it from being self-serving, as it is merely a recording of history. It is not saying "This many prominent people attended St. Mark's College". All the Role Book records is where these people lived way before they became prominent. How could it possibly be known at the time they were at St. Mark's that they would become "prominent" citizens in later life? We have already discussed the usage of the word "Notable" with regard to the Alumni, and have established that it is the way such a section in a Wikipedia article should be labelled (see talk above), so I don't see the point in discussing this further. Please revert your own edit or someone will do it for you. I also find it hard that you have failed to find a single reference to site for this matter, so please let us help you by detailing your efforts here. For example, where did you search, and when? Who did you search for? What perameters did you use? Any information would be helpful, even to just ensure that we don't try and search the same places you have found no information. ABVS1936 12:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the alternative that it is a 'self-published source': your argument seems to be, "since it speaks highly of St Mark's, it is self-serving; since it is self-serving, it is unduly self-serving". You have not provided any basis for claiming that the selfservingness is undue in any way, shape or form. 'Unduly self-serving' definitely connotes some notion of subjectivity.   There is absolutely no way that a list of names (of which you seem to have accepted the authority) can be seem as unduly self-serving. The list of names does not even tell of the persons' accomplishments. This information is to be found elsewhere, and has been cited. The list of names is completely objective. Try and deny this objectivity if you like, Nought, but you will fail. Ryan Oceros 11:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: *Ok nought, for one the Roll Book isn't published - it's an archive of those who have attended St. Mark's College, therefore a reliable record of those names (why would there be more than one copy of such a book?). Second, anyone can view the book, al you need to do is go to the College and ask, or perhaps make an appointment first and make an appropriate time when either the librarian or the archivist are there. And thirdly, please explain in detail why you think it is unduly self serving? The featured articles you directed us to during the "Notable Alumni vs. Alumni" section title debate could also be construed as 'unduly selfserving' but as yet no one, not even you. has raised that point on their pages, and those articles have been featured. I think we already have a concensus here that the Roll Book is acceptable, but please try and get more comments here: I for one would like to have it fleshed out once and for all. ABVS1936 10:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment: Use of College Roll Book to Claim Notable People Have Attended the College

message: I have moved the contents of this thread to Talk:St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide)/1991 murder and blanked the page out of respect for the victim's family. The discussion is still available via that page's edit history. Yeti Hunter (talk) 16:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 1991 murder

message: This page has gone referencing mad. What is the big deal about this college? A page like this should be simple, it should cover brief info about the college, what it offers to the community, a bit about its extra curriculum that it offers its students, mention of notable persons related to the college and some relevant history that has shaped the college as a whole. Why does it need 54 references to achieve this? Look at pages double the size of this article and in complexity and you wouldn't find half as many references. --Echcua 04:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at the history and you will understand why. --Bduke 06:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was hoping to prod some common sense into those who persist in bickering over every little scrap. Probably wont work but now I can state that I have tried and can get back to real work. --Echcua 08:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: That makes complete sense to me and should be implemented when someone has the time. --Echcua 12:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Inline citations improve the quality of the article. It makes it easier for readers to check references. If you remove all the links to the various pages on the colleges website and replace them with one link to the college's main page, readers will have to search through the website to check references. Username nought 13:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You will notice that quite a few of those links are doubled/tripled up. There is a lot of cleaning that can be done, even the inline citations are doubled up. You don't have to source each and every sentence if they all come from the same source, also if its being repeated you don't have to re-source it. --Echcua 14:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Inline citations are used mainly for "material that is controversial or likely to be challenged". Nought, by making it your business to challenge every statement in this entire article, you have brought this issue upon us. Perhaps if the reader really wants to check that rooms have internet connections and shared bathroom facilities, they can go to the Homepage, then click on "Facilities". Was that so hard?--Yeti Hunter 00:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing 

message: Thanks for expanding the history section, Echuca. However I think this may be a different kind of excessive detail to the one that is generating so much debate above. I'm not sure Wikipedia readers need to know which men met in which buildings on which days to form the college - this is something they can look up themselves if they are so interested. Wikipedia is optimised for a general audience rather than specialists. I reckon the info you have added - whilst excellent - could be quite severely trimmed and become much more readable. Also, what of the later history of the college? eg student radicalism in the 1960s, pressure to go co-ed, development plans? Expanding the history section is good - let's not get carried away with detail, though! Yeti Hunter 10:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I'll continue working on the decades up till the early 60s, and I'll keep editing it as I go alone, making it more 'optimised' etc. I'll prob get more time next week. --Echcua 12:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Yeti Hunter has it right. There is a balance between necessary detail and the minutiae of meetings etc. Did all the meetings and where they were held alter the outcome of early planning sessions for the college. Does this information enhance the article (readability and veracity of contents)? Ozdaren 06:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read more of the history of the college. The language is very antiquated and by dint of its style seems to have been lifted from other publications. A lot of the commentary is not encyclopaedic in presentation. Little snippets of contemporary commentary really detract from the concise nature of the article before their addition. I'm not really sure they add a whole lot other than a degree of verbiage.Ozdaren 08:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the language is antiquated, paraphrasing twenty odd pages of historic texts does rub off and some of the words are great eg. teetotalism (had to look that one up, marvelous). The content will be edited into a concise format eventually. --Echcua 12:56, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More History Detail

message: In the origins of the college mention is made of a 'Provisional Committee...(holding) their (meeting)at St. Peter's on December 16th, 1921  Do you mean the church next door or the school? Ozdaren 06:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was the school, as several of the founders had connections with the school. --Echcua 07:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  College or Cathedral 

message: Now that the dispute seems to be resolved, I have moved the content of this RfC to the subpage Talk:St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide)/RfC: Should a murder be included in a college's article.  I have courtesy blanked the content of that page out of respect for the victim's family per Wikipedia:Deletion_policy#Courtesy_blanking.  The entire thread will still be available through the subpage's history for those who have need to read through it.  
I suggest the same be done with the other threads above on the same subject, but I leave it to the editors who participated in those discussions to make the final call.  --Dynaflow babble 06:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC: Should a murder be included in a college's article?

message: I regret to inform you that I am quickfailing the article due to inadequate referencing. Here are some things to work on before renomination:
*Most of the article is unsourced. There are entire sections and paragraphs without a single citation. There is even a "citation needed" tag in the article.
*Per WP:LEAD, the lead needs to be expanded a little. There should be about two to three full paragraphs, which means more than a sentence or two.
*Try to avoid short paragraphs throught the entire article. Any paragraph that is one or two sentences should be merged into another paragraph, expanded, or removed. This excludes the list under buildings/grounds because it is just a list rather than paragraphs of text.
*The references need formatting. Template:cite web should help you out.
The information in the article is good, so becoming a GA is attainable. The biggest issue is the lack of references. Once that is fixed, I'm sure a future GA reviewer will help you out with any other nitpicky things they see wrong. Good luck! Nikki311 18:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsourced? There are 46 sources in the reflist! Admittedly about half are from various parts of the college website, but that still leaves over 20 independent sources. I assume this means we need inline citations to the same reference multiple times (eg in the history section, where most of the information comes from the single Grenfell Price source). As for the lead, I'm a little confused as to what needs to be done. It is already 2 paragraphs of several sentences each, and I believe gives a good overview of the college without going into undue detail. Reference formatting obviously needs to be done. I'm not familiar with how to cite the same reference multiple times but can probably work it out.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The in-line citations are inadequate. If an entire paragraph comes from one source, cite it at the end of the paragraph for verifiability. The lead needs to summarize all the main points of the article...it needs a bit more about the founding, residential life, etc. To cite the same reference multiple times, in the first instance name the reference (). When you want to cite the source again, all you have to do is write . Hope that helps. Nikki311 22:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Well it's been a while, but I reckon that's that. Could still do with another picture or two (pond, downer house) but I reckon that's good enough for GA. Renominating.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 02:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Fail

message: *Rewrite history section in a more concise format
*Inline citations (mostly in history section)
*Format citations (Template:cite web) 
*Rewrite lead
*Merge small paragraphs
*Additional pictures? (probably not essential for GA)
**Memorial
**Pond
**Dining Hall
**Downer House
**Hawker House
**Kermode St Frontage
*feel free to add anything else
--Yeti Hunter (talk) 07:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it's been a while, but I reckon that's that. Could still do with another picture or two (pond, downer house) but I reckon that's good enough for GA. Renominating.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 02:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: GA to-do

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080719012637/http://www.barchambers.com.au/about.html to http://www.barchambers.com.au/about.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070927183633/http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-committee.html to http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-committee.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060819092103/http://stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-facilities.html to http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-facilities.html
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 12:56, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120321000213/https://stmarkscollege.com.au/media/cms/files/333/original.pdf to http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/media/cms/files/333/original.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070927183639/http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-events.html to http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-events.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090201003741/http://www.adelaide.edu.au:80/uni/leaders/ to http://www.adelaide.edu.au/uni/leaders/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070901032758/http://www2.parliament.sa.gov.au/static/pp/html/bannon.htm to http://www2.parliament.sa.gov.au/static/pp/html/bannon.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080228065028/http://www.eoc.sa.gov.au:80/utils/html_view.jsp?repos_id=425&type=4&str=Work to http://www.eoc.sa.gov.au/utils/html_view.jsp?repos_id=425&type=4&str=Work
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080929055442/http://nceph.anu.edu.au:80/Staff_Students/staff_pages/mcmichael.php to http://nceph.anu.edu.au/Staff_Students/staff_pages/mcmichael.php
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060819210735/http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-tour_9.html to http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-tour_9.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070927183520/http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-tour_15.html to http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-tour_15.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070927183526/http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-tour_14.html to http://www.stmarkscollege.com.au/Students/stud-tour_14.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 01:19, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified