Talk:Hacker/Archive 2

message: Interesting information on Hackers. I think you should add Robert Schifreen to your categories and more importantly his new book 'Defeating the Hacker' (John Wiley). Readers can read all about the author and sample chapters of his new book at www.defeatingthehacker.com. During the 1980s Robert was an active computer hacker. He became the first person in the world to be tried by a jury in connection with computer hacking. He was ultimately acquitted on all charges, which resulted in a change in the law. He is now the classic 'poacher turned gamekeeper', writing and speaking on IT Security at seminars and conferences around the world (He is Chairman on the Hacker's Panel at this years InfoSec). He also appears on radio and TV as an expert spokesman. His recently published book, 'Defeating the Hacker' is a must for everyone concerned about computer security, whether at home or at work.193.130.68.19 10:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

message: The truth is that the term "hacker" is controversial and that there is no widely accepted definition, beyond that it refers to some kind of computer expert (good or bad).  The article was POV because it advocated a specific definition.  Personally, I don't really care what it means, but I'm quite familiar with all the discussion.  I have rewritten the article for clarity and to make the fact that there is a controversy clear.  --Shibboleth 00:57, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circa (2004-07-03) edits 

message: Er... this is purely anecdotal, but: My uncle and two friends of his were programmers in the late 1960s to early 1970s era, (they are all electrical engineers today). They often use the term "hacker" in a way that would seem to make it synonymous with script kiddie, as in "Oh, yeah, that guy was just a hacker, he didn't know how to do anything." I was just wondering if "hacker" as "some kind of computer expert" is perhaps only a newer definition, with an older meaning of "lacking in expertise?" AdmN 06:14, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out the famous MIT railroad club, that's where it all started :-) Kim Bruning 20:45, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Absolutely concur. I can tell you, from personal experience, that the word was in use at MIT in the 1970s to sort of mean "computer expert". I say "sort of" because it had a subtly different meaning from "wizard", which was the term we really used for a total expert. I have a hard time putting my finger exactly on the difference, but a "hacker" sort of also meant a certain emotional dedication to programming, a certain attitude, whereas "wizard" purely measured people on the skill axis. My Master, Prof. Jerry Saltzer, was clearly a wizard, but he wasn't a hacker. Noel 14:18, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Older Usage? 

message: The distribution of 'noteable' hackers into categories seems to be a repeating point of contention, and is ultimately subjective. We have people with criminal convictions in "security experts", which seems to leave open the implication that they're just there because someone likes them enough not to put them in "intruders and criminals". The article itself notes that the categories overlap.  
Might it be more appropriate to do away with categories, itemize the reasons why they were previously categorized [ie, their history], and let the reader decide?
Cheers.
----
Why is this article so stuck on the computer aspect of hackers as far as I see computers have little to do with what a hacker IS. urban explorers are hackers too you know. I would love to see the fact that a person dosen't need any computer experience to be a "hacker" come through in this definition. While still recognizing the media induced myth(my opinion) of hacker as having to be a computer genius/criminal. there is a hint of it kinda I guess in bringing up locksmithing but not really the way it is put. I can't deny that the two defintions set forth are true but the majority of people I know consider this much info on the debate ignorant. Still I don't know what to do with it. it seems there has been so much change to this document only the people who care to fight to keep their opinions there are not eventually filtered out.
Adrian Lamo? hacker?!  All he did was scan for open proxies on large companies, he would then use them to connect to their internal network.  This is talent of a scriptkid, not a hacker.  He is only coined with the term hacker, because he would contact news companies and they would do a story on the "poor homeless hacker".  He was homeless by choice, he wasn't forced to live on the streets.  I think this entry should be removed, it will taint the meaning of the hacker definition.  He was only in the game for publicity, and MANY agree with me.
: I know! He's a total jerk. I'd nix him myself on those grounds, but it'd run afoul of WP:NOR & WP:NPOV :)
: Adrian Lamo · (talk) · (mail) · 08:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  subjective 

message: * Hackers are people who are expert at computers and use them for fun - in contrast to "normal" users, for whom the computer is a means, not an end. Hackers also subscribe to the hacker ethic.
* Crackers are people who break security - this is often the extent of their computer knowledge.
* The two are not mutually exclusive.
* Cracking is (almost) always illegal; hacking may or may not be legal: it depends on what is being done.
* (Computer) hacking almost always involves programming. Non-computer hacks are often harmless practical jokes that require some intelligence to set up.
I believe that the confusion between hackers and crackers comes from the fact that hackers appear to be secretive about what they are doing on the computer, thus leading to an assumption that they are doing something they shouldn't be, where in fact they are just too busy to talk, or don't want to be bothered explaining something very technical.
Finally, I must note that it is nice to (at last) find something other than the Jargon File that presents hackers as experts, even if it does suggest that the same word is correctly used for security breakers!
-- QS Computing.
: You are incorrect in your assessment of the source of confusion. A search of the Google Usenet archive in the 1980-1983 timeframe will show anyone who wishes to spend time doing easy historical research that
:*"Hacker" was used in both intruder and non-intruder senses prior to 1983
:*The media (beginning with CBS news) saw that "Hacker" was the term used to describe intruders, and popularized it as such around then
:*The computer community did not approve of the media exclusively popularizing a negative use of what had been a generally positive word, and attempted to coin alternate terminology.
:The "confusion" (or more accurately, the differing usages) is a legacy of this culture conflict. This is one of the more noteworthy spots in the Google archive in the matter. Such evidence shows that in both historical computer community and current popular usages, intruders may correctly be described as hackers — although not all hackers are intruders. Whether such is correct usage in a technical community, and whether the technical community's usage ought to be promulgated to the general public, are separate issues. (See also Nix v. Hedden -- this is not a new problem.)
: abb3w 21:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  See also this outside link on the hacker etymology and recent dictionary denotation. abb3w 21:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please stop referring to hacking as cracking when it is negative.  Cracking is totally different.  Cracking is bypassing software security.  Hacking is an entire field of computer-related knowledge, from basic security bypassing down to writing automated hacking tools (brute force password "cracking" is hacking).  Hacking is when you are breaking the security of a system (usually accessing other people's accounts of said system, or accessing admin roles of that system when you are not supposed to), while Cracking is creating or using a "crack" for/on a piece of software in order to bypass registration restrictions etc.  The toolset is completely different.  Think of it this way:  Hackers are "Hacking In" and Crackers are "Cracking Software", not "Cracking In".  Both of these things require an entirely seperate volume of knowledge and skills, while both require a similar high proficiency with computers.  Old schoolers will talk to you about how Hacking also refers to programmers who use inelegant solutions, and hardware geeks.  The terminology has now shifted to fit the modern information age.  Programmers who use elegant solutions are called "Programmers", and programmers who use alternative solutions (sometimes called "kludges") are "Programmers who have likely been mislabeled by snob programmers".  A solution is a solution until it breaks under a realistic stressor.  That's the bottom line.  JudgeX 22:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are again responding to very old comments, and in this case appear to ignore the earlier rebuttal (which is why I've reordered this section accordingly). I would suggest you discuss this over at the hacker definition controversy talk page — and cite references; if you can provide some as to what extent the current distinction exists (or doesn't), it might go a long way towards settling this before the next millenium. Abb3w 00:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My take on the matter 

message: According to the article, French haquenee is the origin of hackney and later hack.
However, the Diccionario Crítico Etimológico Castellano e Hispánico by Joan Corominas and José A. Pascual gives in the etimology of Spanish jaca ("mare") the contrary:
jaca comes from French haque which comes from English hack which comes from Middle English hakeney (which also gives French haquenée and Spanish hacanea), derived from the village Hackney Wick from London, with famous grazing terrain and the main horse market in the London area.
They give 1367 for haquenée and 1457 for haque, circa 1400 for faca, and 1292 for hakeney.
They quote Skeat (Etym. Dict. s.v. y suplemente; Rom. XXXVII, 164): Hackney (Hakeneya, Hakeney) in Middlesex is an horse grazing area near Smithfield, the most famous horse market in the London area.
Hackney would mean "property of Haca by a river".
Hack only appears in English in 1687 (according to NED).
The DRAE maintains this same etimology.
--Error 00:58, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hackney

message: === Edit 2005-07-05 ===
Reverted edits by 69.223.204.238 to last version by 203.217.52.34
The "stereotype" bulleted list seemed rather arbitrary and pointless tacked on to the end of the History section. -- antichris
=== Spacewar! ===
Jeff Douthwaite 21:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor Edit Controversies

message: Jeff Douthwaite 21:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spacewar! 

message: I'd like to get feedback on the idea of spliting the article into two.
While the current article gives fair treatment to "both" types of hackers, and I acknowledge they have a related meaning, but the article is pretty unweildly, and there is very little information that is common to both hackers (geek-sense) and criminal hackers (crackers). The format has become very much Hacker this, Cracker that, Hacker this, Cracker that... 
Advantages of splitting the article:
*Shorter articles
*More readable and better flow
*Ability to link to the appropriate usage from other articles
*Reader can choose which sense they wish to read about instead of skipping about the place
*People who overlap categories will simply be on both pages
*Better treatment can be given to each topic.
*Less of this article will need to be spent explaining terminology, more on the subject itself.
*"See also", "External links" and "Related books" could have their target audience more easily distinguished. Note that "Categories of hacker" and "Notable hackers" are already separated out.
I also propose the new articles be called Hacker and Black hat hacker (or just Black hat or Criminal hacker? any thoughts on names?)
Also, I'm just going to do these changes, because I know no consensus every comes from these discussions.
—Pengo 01:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criminal hacker and Hacker --> 2 articles 

message: This would include Linus Torvalds, right?
:Good call. He's not a self-proclaimed "hacker" (correct me if i'm wrong), but would certainly fit the definition given. He doesn't talk to the media about "hacking" (positive sense) like Stallman or ESR do. And he's also already listed in "Highly skilled programmers", and no one else seems to be listed twice. (shrugs). —Pengo 00:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hacker media personalities 

message: Ok, this article needs serious cleaning. I'll include this quote:
:"Types of hacker include Guru and Wizard. They have an atypical level of skill, even beyond other hackers. In some portions of the computer community, a Wizard is one who can do anything a Hacker can, but elegantly; while a Guru not only can do so elegantly, but instruct those who do not know how. In other portions, a Guru is one with a very broad degree of expertise, while a Wizard is expert in a very narrow field."
COME ON! This is a shame. You people can write better articles. --Shell 20:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are entirely right, anon. Take the example you proffered: at the very least, we should trim it back to Jargon-file entries, and even just link to that. --Maru (talk) 03:52, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up this article! 

message: The language "highly skilled" used to describe a programmer is inherently POV.  When dealing with a technical community, the best NPOV distinction you can hope for is recognition through popularity.  Specifically, recognition as being not _exceptionally_ skilled (I think "highly skilled" wouldn't be enough--a lot of programmers fit that description).  There really isn't any other criteria you can use.  So unless someone can come up with some better criteria for a section like this, I would consider deleting the list/rewriting it in a very different form.
I'll leave this here for a month to give people time to comment.  
I'm not really sure how to rewrite it, because even with qualifications I'm not sure it would stand.  I could say something like "Richard Stallman is considered by many in the open source community to be an exceptionally skilled hacker."  But then again, many of those both inside and outside the OSS movement disagree.  We could, for example, list Bruce Perens or ESR (who is fairly controversial) as well, but the same problem applies. --Nathan J. Yoder 04:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you think the article should not identify anyone who is widely regarded as a hacker due to programming skill alone? (?) --Yath 06:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that there aren't that many people for whom there is a such a wide consensus on whether or not they are skilled hackers.  The controversial figures listed in this article wouldn't qualify, as there are numerous people who would disagree with that description.   I suppose figures like John Carmack are fairly non-controversial and there would be a wide consensus on him, but not ones like RMS and Linus Torvalds.  Some of those in this list aren't even that well known, let alone widely regarded as hackers (e.g. guido van rossom and wietse venema).  --Nathan J. Yoder 06:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the list should be maintained with care, and perhaps a couple of names removed. It's actually in pretty good shape right now, though. --Yath 23:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Highly skilled" inherently POV 

message: Ok, I think that we should just wipe the slate clean and start a new article. That way we can start over without all of these disputes. --Shell 20:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually after my rewrite I thought it was decent. I still think the difference between hacker and cracker needs to be elaborated on a bit more though. --Ryan Norton T | @ | C 05:06, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhaul 

message: Sorry, I did not realize there was so much discussion.  The solution, in my opinion, is to create a "hacker" page that has multiple definitions and then to point to different one.  This page,should be changed to:  Hacker (computer expert)  
Let's not continue "religious war" and simply change it.   In the US civil war, a "hacker" was someone who used axes and knives to "hack" telephone lines, and this predates computer hacking!!!    Many computer security experts consider the term to have more of a negative meaning.   The issues is not black-and-white.
:I agree, the default page should be backer as in "person who breaks into computers", that's the meaning that most people looking it up would use.  Nathan J. Yoder 05:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. The default article should be about the correct term, not the most popular. Not to mention, favouring one point of view, even if it is the most popular, is a violation of NPOV. Firestorm 02:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree with Nathan at all. There is too much overlap between "computer experts" and "people who break into computers." Both Bill Gates and Steve Wozniak at some point tested their skills by breaking into computer systems. Except for the derogatory remarks about Stallman, I don't think the current article is that bad. --Gazpacho 01:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better to Create a Disambigous Page =

message: :"Zero G — Widely rumored to be female and and child prodigy of MIT, Zero G emerged in the late 1990's. Known to transverse government servers freely, Zero G has been sought after by multiple United States Federal Agencies and foriegn governments. Zero G may be among the top group of the new generation of computer hackers. Zero G's breakin of the CIA's central computer system in 2002 seems to be the most prominent public display. Known on IRC networks as ^G-spot, since 2002, Zero G publically has turned to "Hacker For Hire", striking a deal with the U.S. Federal Government to stop their pursuit in exchange for services rendered. Since early 2005 little has been heard of Zero G, rumored to have been pushed further underground from threats from the IDF."
Who wrote this? I searched the internet and found absolutely nothing. It sounds like a silly cyberpunk story taken too far. --Anon.
:It's Reverted Nonsense. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 19:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zero G 

message: Hacker gets "hacked" by "hackers" every day. If you think you're a "hacker" and think you'll get mad respect for "hacking" this page (by hitting the edit button and typing some nonsense) then please reconsider. Your "hack" will be reverted by Wikipedia's own skilled hackers. In the meantime this page needs to be semiprotected. —Pengo 09:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: How do I convert this category Category:American hackers into a list to include it here ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unixer (talk • contribs) .
:I assume you mean to link to it, possibly in the See also section? You quote it, like so: :Category:American hackers, to produce :Category:American hackers. --maru   (talk)  contribs 01:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of American hackers category 

message: RMS and friends would like to think that the word 'Hacker' means someone skillful with computers. Let's face it; english is a fluid language, and 'Hacker' is now commonly used to mean 'Computer Criminal'. Do a search for Hacker on google news; you'll see tons of results for computer criminals, virtually zero for the Linus-style hacker. It should be re-written to mostly discuss computer criminals with a small section devoted to experts.
___________________
Hacker = one who hacks security of a computer and breaks in 
Cracker = one who cracks copy protection of a software piece
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.77.135.94 (talk • contribs) .
Plenty of people (though few journalists) use the term hacker in the other senses used in this article. You're looking for Hacker (computer security), which discusses the meaning used by the media. There used to be a link to it at the start of the hacker article. —Pengo 15:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is stupid 

message: "John Carmack, a widely recognized and influential game programmer."
Apparently he's so widely recognized and influnetial that no one's ever heard of him! I think I can speak for most people when I say that I've never heard of him.
All this stuff about him could be true but I think you're exagerrating when you say "widely recognized" and I really doubt the average gamer would know who he is. And if that's not the case then maybe you should point out to whom exactly is he "widely recognized" by?
:I would have said he is widely recognised, particularly by mid-90's gamers, the gaming media and other game programmers. He created Doom and Quake, and according to his article, appeared as number 10 in TIME's list of the 50 most influential people in technology. -- jeffthejiff 17:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Widely recognized" is an opinion, no matter the context. Regardless, just because you don't know who he is does not make it any less true. If you don't believe that the guy has a name, you need to brush up on your reading. Slashdot, perhaps. Or check out the book, "Masters of Doom". I'd be curious to see what you'd have to say after joining any "id produced" game forum and asking who he is. --HoH 04:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Right... 

message: I removed the following links from the External links section as probable link spam:
*Hacking Information
*HackThisSite.org A community dedicated to informing and teaching others about popular vulnerabilities in networks and websites, particularly through the use of "challenges" aimed at exploiting a simulation of a website. (Duplicate link)
*Profile of Gary McKinnon (misplaced link?)
*PC Security Solutions.
*Hackaholic: Greatest site ever home of the How to Hack Unix tutorial
Several of the other links probably also warrant removal but these seem to be the most obvious.  --ElKevbo 14:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link spam 

message: Why do they? I mean there is no reasing to do it. Even if it is a goal your probably gonna go to jail or something and be good after jail. Call of duty 05:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Likely for the same reason people climb mountains. ---J.S (t|c) 22:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why do hackers brake down computers and stuff like that? 

message: Here's a quote from the 1993 film Jurassic Park:
Lex: I'm a hacker!
Tim: That's what I said: you're a nerd.
Lex: I am not a computer nerd. I prefer to be called a hacker!
My understanding of this conversation is that "hacker" in this conversation meant simply hacking at a computer in a skilled manner.  If this is true, the quote suggests that, as of 1993, the original term had not yet died. Gordeonbleu 17:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It still hasn't died, even today. I think the quote more indicates that some wider awareness of the Hacker definition controversy was rising at the time, possibly as a side effect of the dawning spread of commercial Internet service providers. Abb3w 05:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Hacker Definition in Mainstream Media

message: * Truth_Seeker, the founder of revelation group and creator of project 2068 along with eradicator, the group consists of 5 memebers, revelator, golden_horde, catalyst.
Per suggestion ElKevbo, adding discussion section. My position: Non-notable; unless further dicussion changes matters, (rv), and start banning IPs. Of course, I favor "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eis" too much to really qualify as a liberal in some things. Abb3w 05:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Followup notes. IP addresses for this edit so far have been 62.139.206.246, 62.139.85.34, 62.139.206.182, 62.139.252.92, and 62.139.85.31; 82.201.168.227 may also have been related. The Geobytes IP Locator identifies all of them as being in Egypt. I postulate (based on internal evidence) one to five script kiddie wannabes, probably without the skill to substantially spoof their IP, with one or two members mucking with the Wiki. While no threat themselves, the odds are better than average for using their circle of acquaintance as the start of a terror investigation. Thus, I will now summon the attention of the NSA LineEater with the incantation: Al-Qaeda Nuclear Ebola Palestine Assasination Jihad Strontium-90 Heroin Hashish Chicago Bin Laden. Good doggie; fetch. No, no, leave poor Abdul Alhazred alone; he's harmless. Abb3w 07:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revelation Group: WhoTF? 

message: I put a deletion request for this category, please make comments and suggestions. A.J. 10:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per discussion over there, should we yank the "Recognized hackers" section, and simply put a link to Category: Hackers by Nationality? It would solve the problem of script kiddie wikivandals adding themselves constantly... or at least either make it more obvious, or move the problem elsewhere. Thoughts, anyone? Abb3w 00:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Hackers]] 

message: The section "Hacker: Highly skilled programmer" reads like a treatise on why people who are smarter than whoever wrote this shouldn't get a job and are just nerds anyway. A full third of the section is spent on saying that companies don't want to/shouldn't want to hire "hackers" (in the sense of highly skilled programmers), followed by a paragraph on how hackers tend to not get along with people. This is highly POV, and as someone who is proud to have been called a hacker (in the "master programmer" sense)  by other hackers, I even find it insulting. There is no need to perpetuate negative prejudice against skilled computer specialists in the definition of this term; and even if its true that hackers are more likely to lack in social skills than the general population, I must point out that the article Artist does not spend two thirds of its substance to elaborate on how highly talented artists are statistically more likely to exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia or cut their ears off, and how companies should prefer to hire people who are only just creative enough to do the job at hand. 24.57.194.33 07:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias against Hackers in favour of mediocre programmers? 

message: Add a link to the major hacking event Def Con? www.defcon.org to check it out. I think it would be kind of cool, it shows how big and not really of a "in the closet" activity that hacking has really become. Thanks -Seth Nov 02, 2006
:it's already mentioned: Hacker_%28computer_security%29#Hacker_conferences —Pengo  talk · contribs 02:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Def Con 

message: "William Henry Gates III (Bill Gates) — is the co-founder and chairman of Microsoft Corporation. Although he personally demonstrated considerable personal coding skill early in his company's history" - I don't suppose we could see some source code or something?
:reference one
:reference two
:Yes, Billy Boy could write code once upon a time, back in the days of assembly language. I'll add these references to the article momentarily. Abb3w 19:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gates????