Talk:Bermuda/Archive 1

message: I want to add mention of, and links to, Bermuda's newspapers. Should I do it on this page, or on Communications in Bermuda? Noel 15:14, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

message: This article is really pretty bad. What on earth is mention of the ups and downs of the tourist trade in the early part of the previous centurydoing in paragraph two? This should be a general introduction to the islands.
I'm going to massively re-do it. Noel (talk) 01:30, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Article quality

message: Please change the article to use Template:OtherUses instead of Template:otheruses it currently uses. The OtherUses template has information about the contents of the article.kk414
 
For a sample use of this template refer to the articles Alabama or Algiers--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DuKot (talk • contribs) .
:Note that that functionality is now at .  redirects to , and is deprecated.--Srleffler 18:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  OtherUses template 

message: It is inaccurate to state uniquivocally that "William Shakespeare set the location of his play The Tempest on" Bermuda. Some Shakespeare scholars think so, based on the use of the name "Bermoothes" in the play and the possibility that Shakespeare may have had the opportunity to read William Strachey's report on the Sea Venture shipwreck (which was written two years before the play premiered, but not published until a decade after Shakespeare's death). But there is no consensus on this question. I have modified the article to simply state that the play may have been influenced by Strachey's report. Pat Berry 21:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Tempest 

message: Bermuda belongs to its inhabitants.
Having originally been settled by Englishmen, and as part of the policy of the English government to extend its territory and its state (via the good offices of The Virginia Company), it is, despite having had a great deal of local autonomy since 1620, when its parliament held its first session, part of England, and now the United Kingdom - whether the London Government chooses, now, to term it as such or not. The UK government says that greater integration, which includes a seat in Westminister, of the remaining 'Overseas Territories' is not an option, but it is able to say that only due to its current lack of accountability to citizens in said territories, and due to the lack of any great public pressure for such an enfranchisement.
Previous British governments have said it would be unfair to give Bermudians a seat in Westminister, even one with voting rights limited to matters concerning the Colony directly, as Bermuda has its own, local parliament. This government would find that argument more difficult to present, having granted seperate legislatures to Scotland and Wales without costing their voters their seats in Westminister. I wonder about the earlier example of Stormont. Did voters in the North of Ireland lose their votes in Westminister under that, or the recently failed local legislature? If not, then the argument has always been disingenious.
In Bermuda, the independence debate is still boiling, thanks partly to a core of fanatic supporters, a large West Indian minority (courtesy, largelly, of the UK Government which imported labourers to carry out the last major phase of construction at the Dockyard which was completed in the 1920s), and some decades over which the UK Government had a policy of 'encouraging' its remaining colonies to choose independence, while stripping their inhabitants of the advantages of British Citizenship, if not of the citizenship itself. A majority of Bermudians have consitently voted against independence, and the current government, which has deliberately avoided appealing to the widest possible majority, is therefore trying to decide the issue by less unambiguous (many say 'less democratic') means than the earlier referenda.
With the current government concerned only with severing Bermuda's ties to the UK, it is likely that any review of the relationship between the UK and Bermuda will have to wait until after the next election, should the PLP lose it, even if an earlier referendum produces a majority in favour of the retention of our ties with Britain.
Sorry... Should have signed this...  Aodhdubh 15:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Bermuda and Britain 

message: I want to add mention of, and links to, Bermuda's newspapers. Should I do it on this page, or on Communications in Bermuda? Noel 15:14, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Next Post

message: Why does this article have the msg:West_Indies despite not being included in the message? -- Jao 13:30, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Next Post

message: 69,900? Erm, a tad off. $36,000 is listed under the Economy section, but this is something to be looked into. Daniel 04:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Small tip.  "You stated you weren't sure if it was the "American or British One" in terms of currency.  Bermuda doesn't use the British Pound.  Bermuda similar to many of the other countries in the British West Indies has it's own currency which is tied('pegged') to the US$1-$BM1 at a constant/equal rate. CaribDigita 12:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GDP Per Capita 

message: I'm not altogether certain what you're asking, but certainly the current government, or rather, the political party (PLP) which is currently in government, is much accused of fostering racial division, and of trying to define every political issue from a racial perspective. It has been accused of being avowedly racist in working for the exclusive benefit of Blacks. However, it would be mistaken to assume that the social divisons fall neatly along racial lines. Bermuda's Black population is neither so Black, nor so homogenous as it is often imagined to be. Centuries of official discouragement of Black immigration (as well as repetead attempts to force Black emigration) meant that most Black immigration to Bermuda happened in the Seventeenth century (at the end of which the majority of the population was what our American friends refer to as 'White-Anglo'). Blacks grew to a slight majority over the following century primarily through two ways: the island's free and enslaved blacks combined with the Native American, Irish, and Scottish slaves, and with part of the White-anglo population to create a demoraphic of diverse ancestry that was, over that period, culturally Anglicised, and which was, in the polarising nature of racism and racialism, identified demographically as 'Black'.
At the same time, Bermuda was undergoing steady emigration. In 1700, Bermuda's population represented 10% of the population of the English New World settlements. 10,000 Bermudians would emigrate before US independence largelly closed the door to that efflux. Most of these went to the South East of North America, where England, and then Britain, was replacing Spain as the dominant European power. Bermuda had always had close ties with Virginia, but contributed significantly to English settlement of the Carolinas, and of norther Florida (what became Georgia and Alabama). Although this migration of Bermudians is often thought of in terms of the second sons of wealthy Bermudian merchant families who were sent to the continent with duffelbags full of cash to establish trading branches of the families, these wealthy islanders were only a tiny part of the outflow. The majority of Bermudians who emigrated would have been poor, or working class, whites. Although enslaved black Bermudians were certainly included, slavery was not a major part of the island's economic structure, then, which is why blacks were in the minority (the reason being that Bermuda remained a company colony 'til 1684, and had a continuous supply, til then, of poor immigrants arriving as indentured servants). It can be assumed that free black Bermudians would be highly unlikely to emigrate voluntarily from the island as conditions for Blacks (and for Whites) elsewhere were markedly worse, and they would be unlikely to be given the same opportunities to prosper as whites.
The result of these two trends was that Bermuda's white population reduced drastically as the nominally Black ('multi-racial' would be a better term) population grew steadily. Despite slavery, and the many petty ways in which the colonial government attempted to restrict the liberties and rights of the free black population, before and after 1834, Black Bermudians played an active and increasing part in the economic and political life of the colony. By the start of the 20th Century, the bulk of the black population, which was largelly indistinguishable culturally from the white, was characterised by many independent tradesman, and small business owners. This remained the case until the latter decades of the Century when the same forces that destroyed North American small businesses and town centres, replacing them with supermatket chains and shopping malls, began to make themselves felt in Bermuda.
Politically, Bermuda's black population had worked to reform the island, to remove the restrictions and segregation which had narrowed their prospects. The trend in Bermuda, where Blacks had a significant investment in maintaining the social, economic, and political istitutions, was to work for equality, rather than revolution. The social and political character of Bermuda was markedly different from that of the plantation economies of the West Indies and the American South. Most Black Bermudians were comparatively well educated, and looked proudly back over a long history of ship-building and seafaring. The relationship between Bermudians and West Indians has often been abrasive, due in part to the different economies, histories, demographics, and socities, but also probably due to an unfortunate contempt in which Bermudians, black and white, have tended to hold West Indians.
This was probably not helped when, following American victory in the Spanish-American War (which gave US companies control of tobacco, bananas, and, most importantly, sugar production in most of the former Spanish Empire) the sugar producing industries of many British West Indian islands were destroyed, and large numbers emigrated from those islands to seek work. Despite the restrictions the white-dominated Bermudian government attempted to place on black immigration, the British government, via a private-contractor, imported large numbers of these labourers to to Bermuda to carry out earthworks at the Royal Naval dockyard. This phase of building lasted until the 1920s, and the labourers employed in it began a period of large-scale (in terms of Bermuda's size) immigration from the West Indies that has been more-or-less sustained throughout the century.
By the 1960's, West Indian Bermudians (by which term I include both West Indian immigrants and their Bermudian-born descendants) had become a large and vibrant minority. Although their activism is largelly credited with accelerating the end of (overt) racial discrimination (against Blacks at least), it is also frequently blamed for violence and creating social division and racial animosity. Much of the social divison and strife that resulted was not, in fact, between blacks and whites, but between blacks and blacks. Many Black Bermudians, who tended to have more in common with the island's whites (with whom they were connected closely by history, culture and ancestry) looked contemptuously on West Indians, and considered their political methods dangerous, and their political objectives dubious. Many West Indians thought black Bermudians were Uncle Toms, to use another American term, and battled with them for control of both the equal rights movement, and of the broader black political agenda. This they succeeded in doing when the Progressive Labour Party (PLP) came to be dominated, in the 1960s, by West Indian Bermudians, like Lois Browne-Evans. Many black 'ethnic-Bermudians', especially young men, and those from the lowest socio-economic echelon of Bermudian society, were swayed by the arguments and methods of West Indian Bermudians, but most looked at the PLP askance, and contributed their efforts and votes towards the UBP that was created in response to it.
It can be pointed out that the PLP, in reducing every issue to a black/white one, is appealing to its widest possible base, being that (given its policies and antagonistic language towards whites) it is unlikely to attract votes from non-Blacks, and, given its West Indian-dominated leadership and its supposedly left-wing, quasi-Maoist plantation politics (it's been noted with a particular wryness that, finally in government, it has enraged labour organisations, and practiced flagrant cronyism) it is unable to appeal to even the bulk of the Black population on a basis of common heritage or interests. It fails to appeal to most Blacks by reducing issues to race, as most are unlikely to embrace black nationalism, or reverse racism, and many of those who do at least support independence, or some socio-economic engineering to correct the legacy of the racist past, look upon the PLP as warily as the island's whites do, seeing it as corrupt, and undemocratic.
The result of all of this is that the PLP's period in government has seen the island set aboil over issues of corruption, democracy, independence, and racism, and, despite the assertions of many politicians, and of the media which parrot them, the divisions over these issues do not neatly follow racial lines (which are themselves not so neat as typically described), and are complex, fluid, and often a mystery to newcomers, who are ignorant of even Bermuda's recent past.
The north of Ireland, by the way, is not in Britain... ;)
Aodhdubh 15:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: On Bermuda And Britain

message: It might be pondered whether, by reducing every issue to race, the PLP is attempting to build a broader base (by including blacks who might not support its economic or political policies), or is simply attempting to spread disunity through any possible majority that might be raised in opposition to it...
Aodhdubh 15:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further to the above

message: User 69.17.194.100 added the external link to "Poker in Bermuda" which seems to be little more than a diary of poker tournaments on the island, together with recent winners.  I don't see what this adds that the other websites don't cover, it is only of interest to locals who can find this stuff out from a number of sources, and seems to be little more than an advert for three or four bars having a poker night every week, so I'll delete it if there is no objection by 9 June 2006 (gives it a week).
LeeG 00:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External website - Poker in Bermuda

message: Looking through the list, it seems rather bloated.  I think the residents list is completely unnecessary and should be deleted.  The famous Bermudians list should be pared down to only those who have achieved something notable outside Bermuda (Miss World, Olympics, WWII, entertainers, anything notable that you can think of).  At some point next week, I'll present a list of what should be in there.  --D'Olivier 09:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If they're well enough known to have their own entry in Wikipedia, it would seem that some mention in this Article is not unreasonable. I'd suggest that, in lieu of a "Notables" list, the "Culture" Section could be slightly retooled as Arts & Culture with a brief addition such as: "Movie actors Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones reside in Bermuda and are active locally in support of movie and dance festivals. Attracted by Bermuda's privacy and natural beauty, a number of other celebrities have homes in Bermuda, such as Ross Perot, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, and former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi". This is similar to the Article about Jamaica, for example...  JGHowes 17:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like that idea a lot.  It flows better with the text, and I have no issues with copying another article's format - hey it is consistent!  I don't have time right now, but I'll have a play on my user page somewhere for a new section to see how it reads.  As an aside - the article reads better after your recent edits, but for some reason on my browser (Firefox) the contents page displays in the centre of the page, and looks all a bit strange.  I have no idea what causes that, so if someone better than me can sort it, that would be brilliant.  LeeG 00:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Bermudians, Residents, Links 

message: I added a link to my website - Bermuda 4u which has since been removed.
Although I agree that websites promoting commercial travel services have no place in wikipedia I don't believe the user who has deleted the link has evaluated my site in full.
It contains over 600 pages of Bermuda-related info, of which around 50 are related to hotel bookings (ie less than 10%). 
The remainder of the site contains a wealth of useful information. For example:
*- Working in Bermuda
*- Buses, Public Transport etc
*- A comprehensive guide to museums
*- Detailed immigration info
*- Geography and interactive maps
*- History
*- A directory listing hundreds of Bermudian companies and brief details of their business
*- Flora and fauna
* - etc
If you're going to remove it please let me know why. I agree it contains some commercial content, but the vast majority of it is pure information.
Motty07 22:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Link - Bermuda 4u 

message: John Rolfe was born in England. I'm not aware he was given Bermudian status. Although he played an important part in Bermuda's history, I don't believe he was Bermudian. Any comments? Motty07 23:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Rolfe - Famous Bermudian? 

message: I've deleted the same link twice in the past few weeks, as it was a commercial link.  It's against Wiki policy (as far as I'm aware) to do this.  Please see the link for further info.  --D'Olivier 14:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: It's pointless to consider these people Bermudan.  Neither were born in Bermuda and the only have a temporary residence in Bermuda.  The fact that Douglas' mother was Bermudan is irrelevant, you can't put her down, as the wife of Kirk Douglas, but not her son.Jgassens 18:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see this link:.  In short, since 1991 the only way you can become a Bermudian now is if you are either married to one after 10 years or have either parent as Bermudian.  Since Douglas' mother is Bermudian (because she was born there, and her family have lived in Bermuda for generations), he's Bermudian.  Catherine Zeta Jones isn't, which is why the wording is that way (though I'd be inclined to strike her out any...the section is called Famous Bermudians rather than Famous Bermuda residents). Let me do that.--D'Olivier 13:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and please spell Bermudian correctly.  I've fixed the title.--D'Olivier 13:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Does Bermuda have automatic dual-citzenship by decent like many of the Caribbean islands? CaribDigita 19:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you mean.  Can you clarify?  --D'Olivier 13:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It used to be the case, in the 20th Century, that if you were born in Bermuda, you were entitled to British nationality, as I recollect from the protest by the British Government a few years ago at the execution of a US citizen who had been born in Bermuda (where his two American parents were stationed with the US military. Despite neither parent being a British national, or Bermudian (no such thing as a Bermudian national as there's no such thing as a Floridian national), he was considered a British citizen by right of birth, and so the British Embassy should have been notified when he was arrested, and given the opportunity to provide him with legal defence. As this was not done, the American state courts/government violated international agreements (but they ignored the UK government and killed him anyway). Ignring citizenship, and sticking to the subject of the right of abode and work in Bermuda - summed up, today, as 'status', these rights had been witheld from the children of Bermudian mothers who were born abroad, but not from the children of Bermudian mothers. They were also witheld from the children of foreigners who were born in Bermuda, even if their parents had long been resident in Bermuda, unless one or both of the parents had received Bermuda status by application. There was no equivalent to permanent imigrant status, or a permanent resident's permit in Bermuda. Although other British and Commonwealth nationals were not always faced with the same obstructions as foreigners, the general rule has been that foreigners residing permanently in Bermuda either do so on a work permit, which must routinely be subjected for renewal, or have attained Bermuda status (which was never so easy to do as US citizenship, for instance). In attaining Bermuda status, they also received British Citizenship, of course.
What this meant, for example, is that the numerous children of Azorean 'guest workers' (many of whom may have lived in Bermuda under work permits for more than twenty years), historically, though born and raised in Bermuda, and speaking not a word of Portuguese, found themselves unable to take up employment on leaving school, and were typically obliged to emigrate to the Azores. In the 1980s, there was a lot of discontent with the unfairness towards these Bermuda-born and reared children, and also much discontent with sexist laws that witheld the right of abode and work (among other things, including property-holding...inherited Bermudian properties often had to be sold, rather than title being allowed to transfer to children) from the overseas born children of Bermudian mothers, but not Bermudian fathers. This led to a change in the law which now means that all children born overseas with a parent of either sex received those rights by right of birth, and also that the Bermuda-born children of foreigners received those rights if still resident in Bermuda on their 18th birthday.
How that compares to Carribean islands, I don't know, but if they are also British territories, I imagine the legal framework may be, or may have been(prior to aforementioned changes), similar.
Aodhdubh 21:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Douglas and Zeta-Jones are Bermudian? 

message: The individual parish pages contain the following, "As with all of Bermuda's parishes, it covers just over 2.3 square miles (5.97 km²)." But on the page for St. George's Parish it lists the area at a little over 2.5 square miles.
:Richard Norwood's survey in 1616 divided the parishes (or tribes, as they were called then) into equal areas.  The only reason the St George's Parish is bigger is due to the construction of the US Naval Air Station during World War II.  The US reclaimed land needed to build a large airstrip.  It's all detailed in the St G. Parish page, though a small amendment should be added to all the parishes' pages ("As with most of Bermuda's parishes, it covers just over 2.3 square miles).--D'Olivier 14:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so why didn't you fix it?  This is Wikipedia, you can Be Bold and make the changes yourself.  I just went in and did them.  You don't really need permission to fix something you see needs fixing, but you did well in bringing it up on the discussion pages first to see what the consensus was.  --D'Olivier 18:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Size of parishes

message: These two sections were wholesale deleted.  Whilst they may deserve deltion, it would seem fair to at least discuss them here before the big chop.  I have reverted the edits - if I missed the discussion, I apologise. LeeG 22:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture and Military

message: Right now, there is no existing project which covers Bermuda in even a remotely specific way. I do acknowledge and am grateful to Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries for their work on the Bermuda articles, though. I wonder whether the editors interested in this page would want to consider having (or allowing) the scope of WikiProject Caribbean to expand to include Bermuda-related articles as well. I can see how there could be some objections, given that Bermuda is not in the Caribbean, but I have contacted the project above and received only positive responses there. If any of you would like to see the scope of the project expand to include Bermuda, please indicate so on the Project talk page, and, if you so wish, add your name to the list of members. Thank you for your attention in this matter. Badbilltucker 21:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible WikiProject 

message: In response to my own mutterings above, I have restructured the sections Economy through demographics.  This has left me with a couple of people to pop into other bits of the article.  Can someone have a look and see what they think?  If there are no adverse comments I'll replace the sections wholesale.
For those too lazy to click - there is a cleanup and slight correction on reinsurance and currency (and popped references in, though "insurance today one is very weak), I have moved tourism down the economy order to lead it into a few attractions (I've lost some, including St David's Lighthouse picture), and I've lost the "attractions" section as a result.  Culture becomes a mish-mash of culture, sports and arts, and picks up in a less obtrusive way nearly all of the "notables".  Others I will drop into the article elsewhere, as noted.  I couldn't work out a way to crowbar Senator Butterfield in, so he's gone for the moment.  It still reads a little contrived to me, so any and all comments are welcome. LeeG 02:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally agree with LeeG's restructuring of the sections, but I do think tourist attractions merit a separate, succinct overview apart from "Economy", so I've edited it accordingly. Also found and restored to display the St. David's lighthouse! JGHowes 20:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  several sections rewritten - comments? 

message: The following paragraph in the Article has been tagged "citation needed" for quite some time. Since none has been supplied, I've moved it from the Article as POV to here   JGHowes 20:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations needed ("Demographics") 

message: I've moved the following statement from the Article to here, for further discussion and editing. Aside from the spelling and word choices, it is unsourced and, one could argue, an overly broad statement, if not offensive. Perhaps the original contributor will wish to rewrite and supply a citation?  JGHowes 13:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *"The culture of young Bermudians is mainly focused around the hip hop culture of the "ghetto" in the United states, thus causing many gangs to spring forth all around the island. Even though the basic rivalry is between East, Town, and West, many sects are constantly fueding in the same territory."
This statement gives a somewhat unfair representation of Bermuda, its crime rate, and the gangs concerned.  The Royal Gazette gives a pile of gang related articles (for example  and ).  This does not, by any means justify the statement.  There are gangs in Bermuda, but I think that they would be laughed out of town in any real city with a real gang culture.  Pulling a wheelie on a V50 down the Ord Road may look "gangsta" in Bermuda, but in Compton you'd last about ten minutes (unless onlookers were unable to move due to laughter paralysis).  I think my biggest issue with this is that it gives the impression there is continual gang warfare across Bermuda, making the islanders terrified to go out at night, when in fact it's not like that.
I've no problem with a reference to the gangs here (not sure where it sits however) but along the lines of "In recent times Bermuda has seen an increase in the number of disaffected and disenfranchised youths turning to a gang culture."  I think that fits with the Royal Gazette articles, but I'm not too sure.  Perhaps we need a section on crime?  It should note that crime is low here, (see the article above - 93 violent crimes a year is a million miles away from a crime wave.  It's a quiet Tuesday in many cities) but it does exist.  For the moment I'm with JGHowes - this should be out until we can represent it properly. LeeG 14:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bermuda culture 

message: Also see above note.  I've removed the following:
:Recent Rise in Crime
:Bermuda, once considered one of the safest places on earth, has recently experienced a drastic spike in violent crime. Armed robberies, muggings, burglary, gang violence and sexual assaults have drastically increased over the past few years, and the conviction rate for these crimes remains relatively low. Many locals attribute it to an increase in drug use and importation, while others argue it is the result of a low police presence and an overly-lenient justice system that ostensibly turns repeat offenders back on the street with only a "slap on the wrist". In truth, Westgate, Bermuda's main correctional facility, is at 99% capacity and there is little room for new inmates. Several Police officers on the island have also spoken out over the years, many claiming that the local force experiences major organisational and morale problems. Nevertheless, crime has recently become one of the largest issues that the island is facing.
If you see the articles I mentioned above, then there is a rise in crime, but this reads as if it's anarchy here, which it is definitely not.  I think we need a couple of references for this - the Royal Gazette or other local press is fine.  Much as crime is an issue - it is still low compared to most of the world.  It may well sit behind the moped related deaths (3 so far this year), literacy rates, the way that one good storm would destroy the causeway (and isolate the "mainland" from the airport), etc etc.  I think I am trying to say - this reads like a political rant, not an encycolpedia entry. LeeG 23:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Crime

message: "Bermuda is the only island in the world to boast pink sand and turquoise oceans"
I don't think that's true, but it depends on what is meant by "turquoise oceans"; The island of La Orchila, in Venezuela, has a beach with pink sand. 
Piotr (Venezuela) 02:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the color of the ocean surrounding Bermuda is described as "Cerulean", a specific shade of blue. I've changed the Article accordingly. The unusual color is said to be due to the absence of certain organisms in the abyssal ocean. JGHowes 11:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pink sand

message: what is the geologic/other origin of these islands?  I do not see this discussed in the article. Hmains 22:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  origins  

message: For some reason I now get the rather snazzy aerial picture overlaid the contents box.  My Wikimarkup knowledge is not good enough to sort this, is anybody else seeing the same thing, and can anybody with more skill than me fix it? LeeG 15:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Page rendering