Talk:Chav/Archive 1

message: In Edinburgh, in the late Eighties and early Nineties, I remember the use of 'Chavie' to mean a young man, as in "How's it going Chavie" or "See that Chavie over there, ask him". The word was used almost exclusively by the working class, to refer to the working class. Chavie and Gadgey were to all intents and purposes interchangeable. 195.92.40.49 09:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Edinburgh usage

message: I think this needs to be cleaned up a bit, it makes it look a little like anyone who wears Nike shoes and drinks has as a sole purpose of life to acquire an attack dog. Passw0rd
:I don't agree, it goes over quite a few other, distinct characteristics. It is true this is a huge subculture / demographic of society, but thats kinda the point. Sam [Spade] 12:18, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Filthy chavsters?

message: From what I can tell "ned" (which we use here) has a more specific meaning than "chav", which seems to have replaced yob more or less. "Neds" have to dress in a certain way, the word 'ned' mainly comes from Scotland
I'm sure "chav" is an old word from Romany... perhaps someone can confirm this. There are several other Romany words in regularly used slang I can think of - Cooshtie, Gadgie Nark, Pal etc
I find the general majority of those that we would consider 'more extreme' Chavs... not that I wish to categorise divisions in the culture... would describe themselves as Chavs... indeed on many dating/meeting sites such as MSN and Faceparty many people 'seek Chavs'... so clearly it can be a neutral of descriptive term as opposed to an insult per ce.
:The problem is that drive-by neologists are using this article as an opportunity to unleash "chav" synonyms that just they and their 5 mates use.
:"Chav" and "Pikey" are widely used. The rest need non-trivial citations   if they're to avoid looking (to both the trained and untrained eye) like UrbanDictionaryisms.
:"Chav" or "Chavi" (meaning "guy" or "bloke") is an AngloRomani word (or at least an Anglicized AngloRomani word), btw. So is "mush" and "cushti". Never heard "Gadgie Nark". Don't know if "pal" is. Maybe...
:chocolateboy 29 June 2005 01:40 (UTC)
:Well Gadgie is a Roma term for non-Roma. A nark is a grass. As for the online dating sites mentioned above - if lower working class women are seen as "slags" then I could understand why someone might search for a female chav. I cannot imagine that the person looking for a chav would describe themselves as one. (I see this is a lower middle class term used to describe lower working class youth. This may be my prejudice against the "Daily Mail reader stereotype" however. Secretlondon 29 June 2005 17:05 (UTC)
:: Nark was used a lot in the 70s TV series Porridge --Colin Angus Mackay 13:35, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neds, Chavs 

message: Is the term Barry Boy the same as Barrow Boy? I saw the name in the Rumpole of the Bailey episode, Rumpole and the Barrow Boy. Auric The Rad 22:05, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
:Nope. A barrow boy is a market trader. Icundell 17:38, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barry v. Barrow 

message: Why do you keep reverting me?  All I'm doing is making the part about the jewellery more NPOV. Selphie 21:48, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Scroll up a bit. I feel that you were being factually inaccurate. If the person is not tacky, they are not chav, the concepts are linked. Not every tacky person is a filthy chavster, but every chav is tacky, by their very nature. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 00:11, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I think SS went a little over the top, his point about gaudiness being a crucial part of the stereotype is sound. Remember, that in dealing with a stereotype as a stereotype, one must be a bit unflinching in describing it. Remember that it has already been explained at the top that the description is from the POV of the one doing the stereotyping, not the one 'living' it (and SS did leave a note about discussing). I have quoted-up gaudy, though to be consistent with 'tacky'. Icundell 00:19, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: People call themselves goth. Nobody calls themselves chav, to my knowledge. Ones a sub-culture, the others an insult. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 10:48, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: But there is no spite in the Goth stereotype - the term is a perfectly reasonable summation of its influences, if a little simplistic. 'Chav' is a spiteful, belittling stereotype, an out and out put down. That must be brought across in the description (and my neice does call herself a goth). Icundell 11:04, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: One of the defining characteristics of goths is their desire to exclude others based on minor details, so I wouldn't take that comment too much to heart, Icundell. I used to have gothic roommates (oh the horror, if I hear the cure again I think I'll break something ;) and they were profoundly focused on what was and wasn't gothic, none of it being anything remotely interesting or valid to outsiders. I have had the personal misfortune to be alternately suspected of being gothic and a skinhead, due to the fact I look a bit like Uncle Fester, and thus I have gained no small amount of insight into these two divergent communities respectively. In any case, heres a Chick tract for Selphie, I hope it helps ;) Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 15:23, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  revert? 

message: This article requires some cleanup to improve its content and style, in my opinion. Although reading through the chat and page histories, progress has been good. Although there are good descriptions of the definition of a chav, media references and celebrities, I think that a deeper social and political analysis of this phenomenon would greatly improve the quality of content. In particular this article must not be offensive!. I have not added a cleanup banner because I think this is too drastic at this point. I am working on improvements piecemeal from the top down. Opinions, people?
Okay, time for some cleanup!
Opening Statements:
OLD
Chav is a derogatory slang term currently in popular usage in the United Kingdom. It refers to a stereotyped lower-class youth or young adult perceived as uneducated, uncultured and / or violent. The term has been made popular by the tabloid press.'
NEW
Chav is a derogatory slang term currently in popular usage in the United Kingdom. It refers to a subculture strongly associated with an underclass negatively-stereotyped as being uneducated, uncultured and prone to antisocial or immoral behavior. The label is most generally applied only to teenagers and young adults of non-ethnic origin. The term has been popularised by the tabloid press and is something of a buzzword.
The term is equivalent to one definition of townie but is more specific in its usage. Response to the term has ranged from acceptance to criticism that the term is a new manifestation of classism. The term is also the subject of humour in the media.'
Explanation of changes: 
The first sentence has been preserved as it is, although I have made 'derogatory' into a link to clearly define the meaning. I have referred to the perceived-group as a subculture in the second sentence (please see note). 'Lower class' is now 'underclass' because 'lower class' tends to refer to income rather than sensibilities and many celebrities are associated with the term 'chav'. I have added 'negative' to describe the stereotype for emphasis of what it is. I have expanded 'violent' into 'antisocial and immoral behavior'. 'Antisocial behavior' covers violent and well as abusive behavior, plus drug and alcohol abuse, all associated with the term to some degree. The same applies for 'immoral behavior' (sexual promiscuity, lawlessness). I have stated that the term is 'most generally applied to teenagers and young adults of non-ethnic origin'. The last statement is, IMO, true, but this is a controversial issue (note II). The term is also something of a buzzword (with no highly-specific meaning), so I have stated this.
I hope I have cleared-up the redirect issue with the link to townie. 'Chav' should not be redirected to the more vague 'townie', but equally should have a link to it. Last of all, a brief but fair overview of the critical response to the term.  
note: I am not sure that a group of people can be semantically classified as a subculture if they are not considered as being a self-identified group. Whether 'chavs' are self-identified is itself debatable and needs more investigation.
note II: The issue over whether this group excludes people of ethnic origin is controversial, but overwhelmingly the press presents 'chavs' as being young adult and white.  This is either an honest perception or a cynical omission to avoid controversy on the part of the press.
The above material seems pedantic, but this is how to justify changing the text and enables other editors to justify changes to it. Please leave comments below.--ChrisJMoor 04:13, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Underclass' is wrong. Underclass is what is these days referred to as the 'socially excluded'. Lower class can be income related, but it can also be an aesthetic (for the same reason many nominally 'titled' toffs remain upper class despite not being especially wealthy). What is picked on and stereotyped is a loudly lower class sensibility, not an underclass. Being wealthy is no bar to being a chav. Icundell 01:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: You should have seen the original version :->. An underclass has no choice about its status (ie is excluded from the mainstream). The stereotypical chav revels is his or her mediocrity. Icundell 20:01, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Some [[cleanup]] issues:

message: This really is a seperate term, perhaps more common in London & The South East and certainly used more than any of those other terms. Might be worth mentioning in article. However it really is the national media that have picked up on it. MRSC 06:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the southern media which has picked it up in the last year or two. Go read the viz from 10 years+ ago and you will find mention of charvas. --Josquius 12:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: This word should definatly be a redirect whether it is to the international term townie or to the correct spelling charva. --Josquius 15:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The terms Chav, Charva and Townie all exist and I don't think anyone disputes that. They are related terms. But I don't think they are the same thing and should not redirect to each other. And even if they did, it is not acceptable to redirect an article "hiding" what was written without combining it with the article it redirects to. As it is, both articles are very badly written and could do with a lot of clean up. Redirecting and reverting is simply a waste of energy and does nothing to improve the quality of the articles. BTW There is a programme on TV presented by Janet Street Porter tomorrow night called "Chavs".  MRSC 16:04, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect 

message: I don't think the Irish travelling community (or Itinerants, or whatever the PC name is for them these days) are really in the same class as "chavs". Though there are similarities, there's too much that differs between the two (in Ireland anyway). 
Well, my point really is that we don't call them the same things. I think the names "pikey" and "knacker" should be removed from the "Derived and similar terms" section, as they refer specifically to travellers, not chavs. Actually, I'll remove them now. There may be some others there that I don't know. I'll keep the link further down though, as it is still relevant.
I also think that section needs some sorting out - there's a small list of some colloquialisms (" Barry Boy (East Anglia), Ned (Scottish), Scally (North-West)..."), but then in the next paragraph there's another list in pretty much the same context. Also, where known, the place of where these words are used should be noted in brackets after, like as some already do. 
I have added some used locally in Limerick and nationally (or partially nationally) in Ireland - Scobe, Sham, Wah and I corrected Scumbag (used to say "Dublin, Ireland" after it) as it is used nationally here. I also added "shamming up", as it's used in the exact same context here as described for "chavving up" (e.g. sham up your PC, sham up your car, etc.). --Zilog Jones 19:04, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Travellers are Chavs now? I don't think so 

message: It's fine to have a celebrity chav section, and I don't particularly debate its current role of honour or the wording with which they're used.  But we should still cite sources for each person included (exlinks to newspaper stories or whatever).  Doing so is good wikipedia practice in general, and additionally it's not impossible that some celeb might object (or theoretically sue) if we don't say who it is that's calling them a chav. -- John Fader (talk | contribs) 21:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Heres a start. Sam Spade  07:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Celebrity chavs

message: The chav graphic has a stupid label: "A cliched image of a stereotypical chav"
How can you have a stereotypical image of stereotype?  Or a cliched image of a cliche?
Let's be clear here: unlike the words 'Northern' or 'black' or 'straight' etc etc, the term 'chav' has no meaning independent of people's image of how certain characteristics are associated: it is 'a stereotype', plain and simple.  There's nothing instrinsically bad about that.  The page tacitly admits this at several points, but the fact that it resorts to appalling tautologies at various points suggests that people are incredibly coy about that fact.
-Danno, --163.1.167.63 00:16, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I've removed the use of the word cliche, but left stereotype.Arthur Holland 08:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stereotype of a cliche 

message: Some of the people editing this page are illiterate clowns - "a council house... stereotype"?? - I just give up.
---163.1.167.63 11:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The "council house... stereotype" was left over from earlier vandalism, along with the phrase "stabby/shooty". I've removed it. Arthur Holland 09:59, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  pah 

message: Altered the introduction slightly to be non-specific about ethnicity and class.
These people are not confined to white/working class - they are everywhere, & can come from any/every background. Grey Area 07:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Change 

message: "However, many also believe that by conforming to these social standards 'chavs' are stereotyping themselves, rather than being victims of any kind of class slur. Also, some point out that 'chavs' are not always from the working class - one famous person displaying many chav qualities is model Jordan, who comes from an upper-class family but embraces 'chav' fashion sense and morality. There is an intense mutual dislike between chavs and the group commonly named (usually by chavs) as 'grungers' - although an affiliation with grunge music is not always present. It has become common in certain internet forums and the like for chavs to complain about their cultural stereotyping, and then launch on a similar anti-grunger tirade, believing rock fans to be behind the common portrayal - although some would say that such websites, notably www.chavscum.co.uk present a reliable view of the truth, and the satirising webmaster should not be held responsible for having exposed chavs' own failings."
Inserted by an anon, removed from the article and copied here by me. Secretlondon 10:18, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bringing it on themselves?

message: I'm fascinated by how our language has forked on the other side of the pond, and I'm interested in the modern slang of "olde" english. Is the Ali G charicature an example of a Chav? Over here in the States, it seems like a Chav is someone that has a culture identity crisis. I'm a big fan of the movie Snatch, which introduced me to Pikeys, but i've never heard of Chav before.
Cfpresley 04:03, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ali G? 

message: Removed from article today - added by an anon, unsourced as ever. 
"** Large 4x4 vehicles, in particular the Mitsubishi Shogun are known as 'Chav Wagons', and are the preferred family car. More recently 4x4 pickup trucks have become fashionable. These vehicles make a statement about 'Chav' attitude to the environment and community."
This contradicts the boy racer stereotype further up. Secretlondon 00:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I posted this. 4x4 vehicles (and sometimes the other cars listed) are referred to a Chav Wagons, at least in Medway through to Sittingbourne and Faversham. Visit Sittingbourne or Chatham Asda any day of the week and the so called Chav dads are driving 4x4s and more recently pickup trucks such as the Mitsubishi Animal. I have no source, only local knowledge having been born and brought up in Chatham and now living in Sittingbourne with a wife from Faversham. The term Chav Wagon may mean something else in other parts of the country. Personally I've never come across the term ChavMobile. I would consider this to be in addition to the boy racer stereotype rather than a contradiction to it. --Mrwhipster 02:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I think that term may be US-only. Secretlondon 02:15, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Different car stereotype?

message: Before the term Chav was widely used, Essex girls were the brunt of many jokes. These jokes have now been rewritten with 'Essex' replaced with 'Chatham'. There would seem to be many similarities between both groups e.g. fashion and car modding, except maybe the Chavs come from a lower income group than their Essex counterparts.  I would exclude many of the negative properties of Chavs from the comparison as it is probably unfair to label everyone from Essex as anti-social. --Mrwhipster 02:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Chav - Possible links with Essex Girls/Boys

message: The term chav is stated as being equivalent to the american concept of white trash or trailer trash.  This is incorrect.  White Trash and Trailer Trash tend to be a less civilized, country style of person.  The typical concept of a redneck.  A chav appears to be more closely related to a wigger or a poser.  This is the type of person who tries to dress and act as if they are thugs, raised on the streets, as if they are black.  However, rarely are these people actually black.  Even more rarely are they actually thugs.  They tend to be rich or well off middle class white kids.
I agree.  I changed the article to reflect that. Brianreading 02:50, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  American Slang