Talk:Bhatra Sikhs

message: Hi! I think this is an interesting subject for an article.
Things you might add:
*You could explain the difference between Bhatra and other British Sikhs.
*Are Bhat and Bhatra the same?
*How do the Radaswami fit in? Are they different from Bhatra?
*Names of books which people could use for further information - it is important for Wikipedia to have references.
*More on traditional customs - what is Bhakera? What is Nasha made of?
I did some copy-editing, and hope I didn't twist anything round the wrong way. --HJMG 15:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: I am so pleased that the AfD inspired a community cleanup. Am I allowed to remove the AfD or is that to be left to the administrators? Kukini 17:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Great work!!

message: Thanks to the anonymous editor who contributed some interesting material a few days ago.
Some of this is probably covered in other Wikipedia articles about Sikhism, Punjabi culture and elsewhere, so I cut it down while I was working on the article. I guess the main focus here should be on things that are specifically about Bhatra. --HJMG 16:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Martyrs, music, film etc.

message: Dear 84.43.40.193, Aranoo and other recent contributors/ editors
Thank you for bringing new ideas to this article. 
Some of your additions meant further work was needed. These are the main reasons:
*It is very important not to break copyright laws by copying other people's work. I have rewritten some of the material taken from elsewhere on the internet: for example, http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082004/ceylon_guru_nanak.htm, http://www.sikhspectrum.com/letters/letters_18.htm and http://www.freewebs.com/bhatline/whoarethebhatsikhs.htm (The last two are not reliable sources, so we need to find better references anyway.)
*We need to take a scholarly approach to traditions, just as the Sikh Encyclopedia does when it says "more than one story is current about their origin". And we cannot make it look as if M.S. Ahluwalia said things he didn't say. 
*We need references for anything which is not common knowledge. There are still some improvements needed in the sources you've used - for instance, we cannot use forums or our own Wikipedia articles, and must try to cite writing from good publishers, or in some cases good-quality newspapers or websites run by reputable organisations. (BBC, for example) If you take a look at WP:RS you'll see more about what sources are considered suitable. (Even though not all our articles have good sources yet, there is a lot of work going on to achieve this.) 
Your contributions are interesting and I've tried to fit your material into the article. (And you inspired me to go and find that map of Guru Nanak's journeys!) You may be interested to know that I helped to keep this article in Wikipedia when it was being considered for deletion.(see here) After working hard to make it suitable for an encyclopaedia, I hope you'll realise that I want there to be a good article on the Bhatra community - so let's make sure it meets the guidelines. 
Please do spend some time looking through the help pages to get used to Wikipedia's ways of working. And you may like to look at some featured articles which give an idea of the quality we should be aiming for: Sikhism is one of them. 
Thanks --HJMG 17:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: 1 What book is it that gives a connection between Bhatra and Raja Shivnabh? Is it the Adi Granth ("bir of Bhanno (Adi Granth) you will find the name of Raja shivabh but more importantly you will find Bhatra sikhs being mentioned"? Or is it a Janam Sakhi? ("The Janamsakhis also states that the Raja and Rani could not conceive child before the Gurus visit. The raja and Rani asked for there home to be blessed with an heir ,Guru Nanak granted this wish. The raja and Rani then become devout followers of Guru Nanak then proclaimed there after that Raja Shivnabh lineage would be named Bhat Sangat") If a Janam Sakhi, which one?
I couldn't find anything to help with this question on http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page 
2 Are Punjabi Khbar and Punjab da khbar the same newspaper? Do they have a listing online or a website?
Thanks --HJMG 17:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2 questions

message: All Qusetions will be answerd by the 29 September of 2006
and will be updated on the page.
Thanks~~[[User:WIKIBHAT (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's good. :)  In the meantime, I've put back a version with correct references and no copyright violations. --HJMG 08:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: All Answers

message: This article has been left for three days with many errors which were not there before, so I have restored the previous version. As well as style, grammar and formatting issues, these are a few of the other problems.
*We can't use (unattributed) sentences from Ahluwalia's work while distorting what he actually said.
*We can't copy things from other websites without citing the source.
*We can't use forums as sources.
*We need to give an objective view and cannot present one community's traditional knowledge as universally accepted historical fact. 
Also, the citation added for the information about Bhat+Ra is the Guru Granth Sahib, but I couldn't find it. Can anyone give the page number? Thanks --HJMG 18:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reasons for restoring an earlier version 

message: Since the Sikh encyclopedia is a reliable source with a clear statement about Bhatra origins, it seems right to put its comment about there being different theories at the beginning of the "origins" section so we can follow Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and make things clear for the reader.  Thanks --HJMG 10:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Various traditions about origins

message: The info offered by User:84.43.40.193 about the connection between Bhatra Sikhs and the Raja Shiv Nabh is:
"From my studies of the Balas Janam Sakhis I have found that there is a direct ancestral linking with the bhatra and Raja Shiv Nabh, If you look at page 392 it clearly states that raja shivnabh linage and followers would be called the Bhatra Sangat due to Guru Nanaks gift to the Raja the is evidence can be found in Balas Janmsakis= sub tu vadi Janm sakhis translation the highest of all Janm sakhis."
(In response to a request for details of the book being used) "I will get the details in a few days as accessing the Janmsakhis can sometimes be a problem as it is over 80 years old and is considered fragile by the holders." (28 Oct)
HJMG believes there should be a more easily verifiable source, and has pointed out:
"The usual Janamsakhi stories of Raja Shiv Nabh and his disciples do not say they are the ancestors of the Bhatra.  See for instance, , (free registration required) , and "
Thanks for any help with this. --HJMG 15:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for responding so promptly. --HJMG 20:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As discussed above, this cannot be traced in major library catalogues. You describe Surdar Javar Singh as both "publisher" and "author", but I can find no reference to him.--HJMG 09:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinion, please 

message: Hello, I've been asked to provide some guidance here.  Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, the burden of evidence rests with an editor who wants to include information in an article.  The standard at this site is that if something is true but not provable then another editor can delete it.  A full standard reference to a book source would normally include its ISBN number.  If that doesn't settle things I suggest you ask for more outside opinions through Wikipedia:Requests for comment.  Regards, DurovaCharge! 23:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Administrator drops by 

message: Please can anyone find a reference supporting the information about the 20th century research about the Punjabi origins of the Bhatra sangat? Wikipedia policy is to back up information with the best citations possible. See WP:CITE and WP:RS. A citation would be great for the poem too, with an English translation or summary of the lines quoted - since this is the English-language Wikipedia! Thanks to anyone who can help. --HJMG 14:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  20th century research on Punjabi origins ---- and the quotation from a poem 

message: :Image:Guru Nanak Udasis.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 14:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Guru Nanak Udasis.jpg

message: Please do not remove cited references.
Everyone in the Indian subcontinent can claim to be "Indo-Aryan", the term is actually proto-historic ie meaning well before medieval times. One could say Pre-dravidian, proto-australoid, turko-iranian, caucasoid, or negroid, or mongoloid.
If you are trying to defer their origins based on racial preferences instead of religious origins then that clearly amaounts to pov.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.59.194 (talk) 08:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: The page is looking better now, but in an even older version of the "Glossary of Tribes and Castes..." the author has details of when some Bhats were still Hindu, how they accepted alms and their possible relationship to some of the Brahmin Castes in Northwest India (as it was). 
Also, details on their continued practise of the Hindu Purdah would be helpful for others who have observed these practises.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.216.22 (talk) 21:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Update 

message: Hello to all the new contributors to this page I have been analysing your alterations to the may bhatra version of the page and it has not met Wikipedia’s guidelines ,Many contributors to this site have not abided to the strict rules of Wikipedia therefore I must restore the may version as it meets the guidelines and rules.
All Users please keep contributing to the site however you must stick to the guildlines and rules as the governing body for Wikipedia will delete this informative bhatra page(indefinitely) for not meeting the guidelines and rules .
Contributors I believe the best things would be to add and alter slowly the may version page, day by day so we can see steady progress to the bhatra page but please user stick to the guidelines and rules as the page will be considererd for deletion. 
Every new piece of information must best referenced in the Wikipedia way and new information must be written in your own words not just copied and pasted. 
I have written some helpful statements to help you with the guidelines.
 
*It is very important not to break copyright laws by copying other people's work.*We need to take a scholarly approach to traditions.
*We need references for anything which is not common knowledge. There are still some improvements needed in the sources you've used - for instance, we cannot use forums or our own Wikipedia articles, and must try to cite writing from good publishers, or in some cases good-quality newspapers or websites run by reputable organisations. (BBC, for example)
*Many of us have helped to keep this article in Wikipedia when it was being considered for deletion.(see here) After working hard to make it suitable for an encyclopaedia, I hope you'll realise that I want there to be a good article on the Bhatra community - so let's make sure it meets the guidelines. 
Please do spend some time looking through the help pages to get used to Wikipedia's ways of working. And you may like to look at some featured articles which give an idea of the quality we should be aiming for: Sikhism is one of them. 
Thank you 84.43.40.193 WIKIBHAT (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: For all the Recent Update made after may 2008 

message: Hello user 90.199.74.23 I can see you have been altering the page that has been approved by Wikipedia’s guidelines, user 90.199.74.23 if you want to add or delete information you must abide by the rules and regulations, which can be read above.
I can see that you have been altering the introduction statement and adding your own opinion with an insufficient quote. As the introduction as been correctly sourced and referenced in the lower section of the page it cannot be altered (deleted) unless you have some information to add which must be correctly quoted, however your own opinion will be rejected only factual information that can be backed up may be added. 84.43.40.193
Reading your alterations I can see you have a different opinion on the origins of Bhats ,If you would like to make a major change to the page, like a new theory or fact of the origins you must discuss it here before it can be added.
I personally have added and constructed the page to its present form. I have analysed Sikh text, scholars  factual statements and authors ,I have concluded that there are some objections to the origins stated on this page ,however the over whelming mass proof which was taken from scholars, Sikh text, authors The Guru Granth sahib and Janam sakhi corroborates the Bhats origins and profile as the one stated in the page, as this is the case we must use this information on this bhat article. 84.43.40.193WIKIBHAT (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: For user 90.199.74.23 

message: It was reported in Ticket:2009011210010064 that much of this page copies http://www.bhatra.co.uk. Having checked and reviewed this, it appears that large sections of the text are indeed taken from that site. As such, I've tagged it as a copyvio. I suspect there are non-infringing sections; those should be kept and the rest of the text removed. Stifle (talk) 11:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvio 

message: One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.bhatra.co.uk/html/index.html and its various subpages. Infringement was added in several waves by IP contributors, evidently beginning on January 15, 2008, with a second wave on June 2, 2008 and a third on June 11, 2008. Infringing material has been deleted (stored at Bhatra/deleted revisions 2009-01-20) and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. 
While I have done my best to incorporate changes and additions to the article that did not incorporate infringement, I recognize that this constitutes a setback to the editors of this article, who have my empathy. It's unfortunate when contributors disrupt the project intentionally or otherwise by adding text we cannot legally use, especially when this material becomes embedded in future additions.  --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Bhatra. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061104211712/http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082004/ceylon_guru_nanak.htm to http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082004/ceylon_guru_nanak.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060509034719/http://www.art.man.ac.uk:80/CASAS/pdfpapers/remittances.pdf to http://www.art.man.ac.uk/CASAS/pdfpapers/remittances.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070625150422/http://www.sikhsanjog.com/contents/differences.htm to http://www.sikhsanjog.com/contents/differences.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060111081626/http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu:80/issr/paper/issr55.pdf to http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/issr/paper/issr55.pdf
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:23, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: HJMG created the initial title page and I WIKIBHAT created the content and have been editing this page for approx 13 years now, under different user names/numbers. The page although predominately a Bhatra sikh content page, will also try incorporate other types of Bhat clans, so to understand the scope and diversity of clans which came from the original Hindu Bahamians etc. anyone who wants to add please try to cite the new information as according to wiki guidelines and if the information is vast create a separate wiki page and then mention the clan in the Bhatra page, keeping the Bhatra page clean and concise. Thank you and keep going. 
It is important that relevant information is used, please re-frame from adding names of Bhats sikhs in the community unless there is a historical relevance. thank youWIKIBHAT (talk) 17:50, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update from WIKIBHAT