Talk:Dôn

message: "...the Romano-British form of this Proto Celtic theonym is likely to have been *Dānua."  That's good to know, but how is it specifically relevant to Dôn?
24.159.255.29 21:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I misunderstood the meaning of Romano-British. Still, perhaps a note could be added to the effect that the Romano-British form was the intermediate ancestor of the Welsh word.
24.159.255.29 21:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I'm cutting it altogether. Wikipedia doesn't really need these wordy "Dānua appears to be likely to be derived from Dānua" sentences. The source cited doesn't privilege a Proto-Celtic form Dānua over Dānu or Dān-ā or various other possibilities. In any case, it would make better sense to derive a Proto-Brythonic form from attested Welsh forms, than from a weak Proto-Celtic reconstruction. Q·L·1968 ☿ 17:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

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* http://www.shadowdrake.com/celtic/dondana.html (archive)
** In Dôn on 2008-01-11 17:40:58, 404 Not Found
** In Dôn on 2008-01-22 22:45:13, 404 Not Found
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thread_title:  Dead link 

message: CG: This is the majority of the medieval Welsh sources mentioning Don - there are maybe a few other scattered references (none of them any more revealing about Don - mostly just references to children of Don - and, as Peter Bartrum notes in his Welsh Classical Dictionary [WCD] "The extant remains of early Welsh literature do not tell us whether Dôn was the father or the mother of these children"), which I will collect and post in the coming days. The notion that Don was a woman entirely hinges on Arianrhod being assigned two different parents (Beli and Don) in various sources; but anyone who has studied medieval Welsh genealogies can tell you that such discrepancies are entirely too common and we should be careful about reading too much into it. It is often uncritically stated that Don can be linked to the Irish figure of *Danu (who is equally mysterious, but that's another story!), but this does not hold up on linguistic grounds.
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Life of St. Iudichael [11th-century Breton Latin Saint's Life by Ingomar]
misit aliquem sibi fidelem ad provinciam Gueroci, ad locum Gilde, ubi erat, religionem suam peregrinus exul transmarinus colens, Taliosinus bardus filius Donis, fatidicus presagissimus per divinationem presagorum...
"He sent one of his servants to the province of Bro-Erec at St. Gildas, where, as a pilgrim from overseas, there was a bard Taliesin, son of Don, a prophet very skillful in prophesying through the divination of omens"
[CG: in regards to the question of whether or not Don is a man or woman, note that in the late medieval tale Hanes Taliesin, Taliesin's mother is Cerridwen]
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Ardwyre Reged, Book of Taliesin
gochawn marchawc mwth molut gwryon / o dreic dylaw adaw doethaw don, 
"an excellent horseman of swift, ready (generous) praise is/for Gwrion. Will there come a wise don of Don from a bungling leader?"
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Englynion y Beddau (Stanzas of the Graves)
Bed Guydion ap Donn ym Morva Dinlleu
"Grave of Gwydion son of Don[n] in Morfa Dinlle"
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Pedeir Keinc y Mabinogi (Four Branches of the Mabinogi) - Math uab Mathonwy
...Ac ny allei gylchu y wlat, namyn Giluathwy uab Don, [a Gwydyon] uab Don, y nyeint ueibon y chwaer, a'r teulu gyt ac wy y gylchu y wlat drostaw.
[....]
...'hawd yw dy gynghori. Aranrot uerch Don, dy nith uerch dy chwaer.'...
"He could not do the circuit of the land, but Gilfaethwy son of Don and Gwydion[4] son of Don - his nephews, sons of his sister, and the household with them - would go on the circuit on his behalf."
[....]
"'there is a simple answer to that. Aranrhod, daughter of Don, your niece - daughter of your sister.'"
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Trioedd Ynys Prydein (Triads of Britain), #28
Teir Prif Hut Enys Prydein:
Hut Math mab Mathonwy (a dysgawd y Wydyon vab Don), a Hut 6thyr Bendragon (a dysgawd y Venw vab Teirgwaed), a Hut Gwythelin Gorr (a dysgawd y Goll vab Kollurewy y nei).
"Three Great Enchantments of the Island of Britain:
The Enchantment of Math son of Mathonwy (which he taught to Gw(y)dion son of Don), and the Enchantment of Uthyr Pendragon (which he taught to Menw son of Teirgwaedd), and the Enchantment of Gwythelyn the Dwarf (WR: Rudlwm the Dwarf) (which he taught to Coll son of Collfrewy his nephew)."
[Bartrum, WCD (Arianrhod): "In a triad (TYP no.78) she is called one of the ‘Three fair maidens’ of Ynys Prydain, and in another triad (TYP no.35) she is said to be daughter of Beli, and mother of Gwenwynwyn and Gwanar the sons of Lliaws ap Nwyfre. From this Sir John Rhys concluded that Dôn was the wife of Beli. (Hib. Lect., p.90)."]
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Kadeir Kerrituen, Book of Taliesin
Gwydyon ap don dygynuertheu.
[....]
Rym gelwir kyfrwys yn llys don.
"Gwydion son of Don who produces splendid things"
[....]
"I am called a cunning man in the court of Don"
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Dosbarth yr Ymrysson, Cwrtmawr MS.5, p. 397
Pan aeth Kyswallon hir i Dir mab Don 
"when Caswallon the tall went o the land of the son of Don [Arfon]"
"called a cunning man in the court of Don"
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Bonedd y Saint (Pedigrees of the Saints) #28 (MS F), 
Padric m. Aluryt m. Goronwy [Gronwy m. Gwydion m Don] o Waredawc yn Arvon
"Padrig son of Alfryd son of G(o)ronwy (son of Gwydion son of Don) from Gwaredog in Arfon."
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Bonedd y Saint #55 (MS L 265, M 231)
Nidan yMon m. Gwruyw m. Pasken m. Uryen [Urien Rreg(ed), ac Ethni verch Alfryd ap Grono ap Gwdio[n] ap Don i vam]
"Nidan in Mon [Anglesey] son of Gwrfyw son of Pascent son of Urien (Rheged, and, his mother, Ethni daughter of Alfryd son of Grono son of Gwydion son of Don)"
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Bonedd y Arwyr (Pedigrees of the Heroes) 25
Plant Don o Arvon "Children of Don from Arvon"
[sons] Gwydion, Govannon, Amaethon, Hunawg, Idwal, Ienuydd, Elestron, Digant, Gyluaethwy, Kynnan, Hedd, Addien, [daughters] Elawg, Arianrhod
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Bonedd y Arwyr 26
Plant Math ap Mathonwy (Children of Math son of Mathonwy)
Llew Llaw Gyffes, Dylan eil ton, Blodeuwedd eu chwaer o Arianrhod verch Don eu mam.
"Llew swift hand, Dylan son of the wave, Blodewedd their sister, from their mother, Arianrhod daughter of Don"
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Englynion Cad Goddau, MS Peniarth 98b, 81-2.
...ac Amathaon ap Don ai daliodd. Ac am hynny yr ymladdodd Amathaon ap Don ac Arawn vrenin anwn... A Gwidion ap Don a ddychymygawdd henw y gwr ac a ganodd y ddau Englyn sy yn canly.... [Gwydion ap Don ai cant]
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Poem for Rhodri ap Ywein by Prydydd y Moch, late 12th century:
o amgant llys Dygant uab Don
"from the region of the court of Dygant son of Don" [Dygant was eponymously connected to the region of Deganwy]
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Bartrum, WCD (Caer Arianrhod): "In the tale of ‘Math’ the implication is that the Caer was on the shore, in a position similar to that of Dinlleu [Dinas Dinlle]. There is no reason to suppose that the site marked on the maps is correct, or that it could have become detached from the mainland since prehistoric times (F.J.North, pp.223, 232). In Edward Lhuyd's Parochialia, III.51 (Parish of Llanwnda) the place is called Caer Anrhad and said to be named after Anrhad son of Dôn."
...According to the Folklore of the district it appears that Caer Arianrhod was inundated on account of the wickedness of its inhabitants. But Gwennan bi Dôn, Elan bi Dôn and Maelan bi Dôn, three sisters, escaped, because at the time they had come ashore to fetch food or water at Cae'r ’Loda (Cae'r Aelodau, the Field of the Limbs). When they looked back they beheld the town submerged by the sea. Gwennan fled to the spot now called Bedd Gwennan (Gwennan's Grave) where she is now buried, Elan fled to Tyddyn Elan (Elan's Holding) and Maelan to Rhos Maelan (Maelan's Moor). All these are names of places in the immediate neighbourhood. John Rhys thought that bi perhaps meant ‘baby’ Celtic Folklore, pp.207-211). But W.J.Gruffydd doubted this interpretation of ‘bi’ (Math vab Mathonwy, p.188 n.59)."
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Bartrum, WCD (Don): "Medieval Welsh antiquarians thought Dôn was a man. Thus we find Don ap Conwy in a list of Dôn's children in Peniarth MS.118 p.60l, LD ii.15, while in Llanstephan MS.187 p.225 (1634) we find Don ap Dygyn ferthyr o Arfon. Similarly Cardiff MS.4.22 (1716) p.59. The form ‘Don ap Conwy’ may derive from the line Gwdion fab Don ar Gonwy in a poem attributed to Dafydd ap Gwilym (Barddoniaeth, edited by Owen Jones and William Owen, 1789. p.365). The intrusion of Dygyn Ferthyr seems to derive from a line in the Book of Taliesin (BT 36.3-4), Gwydyon ap Don dygynuertheu. The name became (a) the father of Dôn, and (b) a son of Dôn in Mostyn MS.113 p.138, Peniarth MS.118 p.601 (Dogyn verthyr o Arfon), LD ii.15 (Doginothr). “This Don was an usurper” (Edward Lhuyd's Parochialia, III.51, s.n. Llanunda). “Don, lord of Arfon, was father of Gwydion.” (Lewis Morris, Celtic Remains, p.140)."
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Hanes Taliesin - 16th century version by Elis Gruffydd [here quoting a Taliesin poem called  "Prifardd Cyffredin"] 
Mi a fum yn y llys Don / cyn geni Gwdion
"I was in the court of Dôn before the birth of Gwydion."
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[More to come soon.] Cagwinn (talk) 04:25, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary Sources Mentioning Don 

message: I won't have access to my books until I get home next week, but I believe we should be able to move forward in a way that suits all parties. I'll be stepping in as an editor here, meaning I must step out as an admin; if further administrative action is required here, someone else will have to do it. Again, I don't have all my resources available, but as a cursory note, here are a few thoughts:
Cagwinn's edits were largely correct. There are a great deal of primary references that treat Don as a male figure. While Cagwinn's subsequent comments and actions undermine his own case, he has in fact given an impeccable secondary source that explains this in Bartrum.
So far as I can recall, the idea that it was a female figure comes from two sources. The most important is the Fourth Branch, which implies (but doesn't directly state) that Don is Math's sister. The other is the Triad naming Beli as Arianrhod's father; by John Rhys's ingenious interpretation, Beli and Don were the parents of Arianrhod and her siblings. This is consistent with the limited info in the Fourth Branch, but probably goes several steps too far. It could be that only Arianrhod is the child of Don and Beli, or it could be just an alternative version of her parentage entirely. Rhys' intepretation must be included, but with the caveats expressed in various modern sources.
Naming off primary sources mentioning Don is interesting, but not especially helpful here. What we really need are up-to-date secondary sources. Cagwinn has named a couple above. I have Hutton's Pagan Britain, though I don't recall it mentioning anything about Don. I'll check when I get a chance. Bromwich's Trioedd Ynys Prydein does discuss Don and needs to be included here.
I think it's fair enough to begin this article with an introduction like this: "Dôn [pronunciation] is an ancestor figure in Welsh legend and literature. She is typically given as the mother of a group known as the "Children of Dôn", including Gwydion, Arianrhod, and Gilfaethwy, among many others. However, antiquarians of the early modern era generally considered Dôn a male figure." And then further exploration and info on modern pagan use in the article body.--Cúchullain t/c 20:00, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I mentioned Hutton not because he specifically discusses Don (he doesn't), but because he has jump-started a long-overdue, scholarly re-assessment of the other "gods and goddesses" of the Four Branches (notably Nudd/Lludd, Rhiannon, Lleu, Modron, and Mabon), the nature of which has, at this point, become received wisdom based on the flimsiest of evidence. Much of the scholarship on the subject goes back to the late 19th and early 20th century, when scholarly standards were a bit more relaxed and Celtomania (as well as a romantic desire to reclaim the lost pagan heritage of the Isles) was all the rage. Cagwinn (talk) 20:42, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Cúchullain, I think your suggestion for beginning the article is good. And let me be clear Cagwinn: the article as it stands at the moment (the version I was reverting to) is not very good. It's barely sourced, little more than a stub, and could use fleshing out. My objections to your version were mainly that it focused too tightly on the view you were advocating, to the general exclusion of other viewpoints, and your version was almost as poorly sourced. Unfortunately, I was busy with other real life issues yesterday and being unable to actually do research work on the article, I defaulted to an extremely poor response of reverting more than once. I've rarely done that on WP and I sincerely apologize. I hope we can work more collegially from here. Cheers, Pigman☿/talk 03:06, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

text: I've incorporated Cúchullain's suggestions into the intro para. Much of the following para is redundant or could be worked into an expanded section on the genealogy so I'm removing it and parking it here: "She does not play a direct part in the action of the Mabinogi, though many characters in that cycle are related to her. By Beli Mawr, she is the mother of Arianrhod. She is also the mother of Gwydion, Gilfaethwy, Gofannon, Eufydd, Elestron and Amaethon, and the sister of Math fab Mathonwy." I'm leaving the Ford assertion and the theonym para for now, mostly because they contain some of the only sourcing in the article. Even if that is deleted or reworked, it just makes me queasy to have an article with no references/citations. Cheers, Pigman☿/talk 03:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good so far. We can probably revisit the intro wording once the rest is worked out. I don't have access to Bartrum at present but judging by the quoted passages above, it can be used to source both the fact that many antiquarians considered Don a male, and that in modern scholarship the female identification "has generally been accepted" since Rhys.--Cúchullain t/c 04:50, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Bartrum's WCD can be read/downloaded (legally) from The National Library of Wales site. Cagwinn (talk) 05:11, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trying a new start