Talk:Anglo-Saxons/Archive 3

message: There were almost certainly significant numbers of Germanic-speaking or Germanic-descended people living in Roman Britain well before the end of the Roman Empire's control of the province.  Many Germanic people had been moving inside the borders of the Empire for many generations before the collapse of the Empire, and not just as soldiers: many were farmers and tradespeople too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kozushi (talk • contribs). 10:01, 22 August 2006
Where is the evidence that there were 'significant numbers' of Saxons in Britain before the end od the Roman era?
Tacitus  describes the Germanic mercenaries (who were used all over the Roman Empire,) in the Romano-Brythonic areas of Pre Roman Collapse Britain as the 'foderati'. The Romans never truly won over the 80 or so Germanic tribes on the continent and it suited them better to use them as mercenaries. Germanic 'foederati' were used in the Legions and possibly ironically to man the Saxon Shore Forts along the East coast of what is now modern England. They were there to prevent Saxon sea raids from the Elbe / Wesser / Rhine areas of what is now modern Germany Hartram 10:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Germans in Britain pre-Romancollapse (Pre 410 AD)

message: I wonder if the migration stuff should be on a separate page, it rather takes the main page over and could even do with more detail to expound it properly.MarkThomas 19:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The migration stuff should be on Sub-Roman Britain, there should be a brief discussion here, with the main information in the other article. At the moment it is the other way around. The problem is that many editors tend to hold firm convictions one way or the other, it seems a matter of faith to some, like ID or something, so often important information is removed or unreliable sources are used to support one point of view over another. At the moment it's quite ballanced, with all major POVs given, and it would be a shame to upset that equilibrium. Alun 05:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Migration debate  AD 410 to AD 449 

message: hey. this article tends to go off track in some genetic tangent or whatever. lets try to get across what they did, like who conquered them, who tried to, etc. my high school english text book had more clarity when talking about the anglo saxons than this article does. so in the meantime ill be using that.
:Your school book is probably wrong. Alun 14:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the main idea 

message: In regards to the section below, moved here. I'm not real happy with this section as it reads poorly. I suspect it was not written originally for Wikipedia based on the tone and perspective, making it suspect as a copyvio. It's also not clear how accurate or trustworthy it is as a scholarly source. I suspect it can be salvaged with a lot of re-writing. Any comments or ideas what to do with it? -- Stbalbach 15:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anglo-Saxon Warfare

message: Moved this here, recently added to the WP:LEAD section:
:Yet a new study by University College London has shown that the Y Chromosome of most people in the UK has been very much affected by the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. UCL Study This is probably due to the nature of the Anglo-Saxon invasion - the Saxons being 'ferocious' as Charlemagne (a renowned Warrior King,) noted. But also due to subsequent mixing. Whatever the DNA argument - what is clear is that the Anglo-Saxon invasion of what was Romano-Britain led to the formation of England by the 10th Century with its unrivalled language and global impact. The legacy of the Anglo-Saxons is truly global.
It is somewhat POV, but more so it is not a new study it is from 2003, and it is only 6 pages long so the conclusions that "The legacy of the Anglo-Saxons is truly global." seems a stretch. It would be better if this was incorporated into other parts of Wikipedia where this is already discussed such as Sub-Roman_Britain and added as supporting evidence to later and more important studies. Also the lead section of an article is supposed to be a summary of the article, repeating in summary format what is covered in detail in the main body - for some reason this articles lead section has become an original section with footnotes and stuff. See WP:LEAD. -- Stbalbach 16:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "New" study

message: Since Prof. Oppenheimer's views contradict the research of most other experts, you can hardly use him as your sole authority.  His strange and controversial ideas are rejected by most scholars.--dunnhaupt 22:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I moved your addition to Anglo-Saxon_migration#The_Anglo-Saxon_migration which has more detail on the genetics debate. -- Stbalbach 15:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppenheimer

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Alfred jewel.JPG

message: There is a huge flood of closely-spaced edits by 69.137.79.18, making review and possibly revision difficult. Parts of the article seem rewritten. I appreciate use of the genetic material. However, I suspect a credible source cannot be found to state that the “Basques,” as such, migrated in large numbers to what are today the British Isles. Yes, there are some common haplogroups among the Welsh and the Basques, but this does not mean that “the Basques” colonized Britain. For one thing, the migration could have been in the other direction. (Most likely the Pays-Basques and the British Isles were both colonized by similar peoples from somewhere else...) For another thing, the Basques are a modern people. They have a very long history and lineage, to be sure, but it is the ancestors of the Basques and the ancestors of the pre-Celtic populations of the British Isles that we're talking about here. Not the Basques themselves. On top of that, as another user has mentioned, the most common haplotypes of Britain are the "hunter-gatherer" neolithic haplotypes widely shared around Europe. Last, this material is simply overdone in an article on the Anglo-Saxons. Anglo-Saxon history picks up at the point at which there are Anglo-Saxons, and whether they have many ancestors in common with the Basques or few is really a minor point. If your point is that the present-day population of Britain has ancestry from many different lines, the point is well taken. If it's that the Anglo-Saxons were not the only denizens of their areas, then we can talk about what "Anglo-Saxons" were in the face of a continuum of related language across southern and eastern Britain. But I think that too much is being made of the genetic material here, especially in an article ostensibly on the Anglo-Saxons. Xenophon777 03:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Vandalism by 69.137.79.18

message: The reference is to the southern and eastern sections of the Island of Great Britain, which is, in modern parlance, England.  The fact that the southern and easten part of Great Britain is England is a point of common knowledge, and so does not require a reference.  However, consultation of any atlas will confirm this. . . .LinguisticDemographer 13:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: England/Great Britain

message: I've added this tag to the article. All mention of any recent genetic studies that show that the Celtic population were not displaced in England has been removed again.  Also, I think the article puts too much weight on the theories of Oppenheimer. Is there are any evidence that these ideas are widely believed among scholars? Because the article gives the impression that they are.  (84.13.243.156 08:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please take the genetic wars elsewhere, it is not covered in this article, it is discussed in other articles to avoid repetition and POV-creep. -- 71.191.36.194 21:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That's not how wikipedia works. The neutrality and accuracy of this article is being disputed so why are you removing the tag? (89.241.239.32 08:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh? It's just about citing a recent genetic study that sheds new light on the subject. This article is about the Anglo-Saxons which is a term that eventually encompassed all the populations, i.e Celtic, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Franks etc in Anglo-Saxon England, so it's very relevant to this article. It may be mentioned in other articles, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned here as well or at least the findings of the survey.  Also, what about my other point? (84.13.253.172 08:18, 19 August 2007
The reason why there is so much contention here is that there is confusion about whether terms such as "Anglo-Saxon" or "Celtic" are cultural designations or genetic (i.e. racial) designations. Language is the central feature of any culture, and the one (and only) thing we can say for sure is that, in the 4th-9th centuries, the Celts spoke Celtic languages, and the Anglo-Saxons spoke Anglo-Saxon. Armed with these definitions, we can go on to say "people who originally spoke Anglo-Saxon came from such and such a place, had weapons, pottery, graves, settlements, kingdoms of such and such a design, and thus an article on the subject emerges.   
    
Geneticists (I think) had yet to identify a gene that differentiates a Mandarin-speaker from a Xhosa-speaker, so genetic evidence is entirely silent on cultural identification, and can only be used in that way by making correlations between movements of genes and pre-conceived models of cultural movements. If we treat terms like "Anglo-Saxon" or "Celtic" as if they were races, then people misinterpreting genetic data end up making stupid statements like "the Celts are actually Basques": stupid because the Basques don't speak (and never did speak) a Celtic language. In the British Isles (come and see with your own eyes - you don't need DNA tests), even on the east coast, tall, fair Nordic types are a small minority of the population. If the English are the descendents of a group who entirely displaced the pre-Anglo-Saxon population, then the Anglo-Saxons must have been just as genetically-mixed a bunch as were their predecessors. The suggestion that a particular group of invaders spread Anglo-Saxon culture by driving out or killing all the "Celts" is pure Wagnerian fantasy. Even apparently-sensible geneticists seem to be susceptible to this.   
    
The theories of Oppenheimer are relevant (although challengeable) here because he suggests that Germanic-speakers were present in eastern Britain long before the Roman invasion. The main body of genetic evidence he provides is interesting, but not applicable in the context of an article on a particular culture.   
    
The essence of the article should say of the people we call Anglo-Saxon:   
* that they were a racially-mixed cultural group    
* that their culture arrived from across the North Sea   
* that their culture arrived over a period from ?pre-Roman times until the 6th century   
* that their culture displaced a Celtic-speaking culture which previously occupied most of Britain south of the Scottish Highlands   
* that they achieved most of that displacement between 420 and 600 AD   
* that all the above statements are hedged around with uncertainty and controversy.   
    
All the above can be supplied with reliable citations. Will any of this happen? Or will the democracy of ignorance triumph? . . . .LinguisticDemographer 09:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Why exactly don't you want any mention of the 2003 genetic survey here? As I said before it sheds a lot of new light on the subject. The survey was a proper scientific study, not a pov or debate, and the findings could be interpreted in different ways, but I don't see the problem here in covering it in the article. Unless you have an agenda to push. (Nebulousity 21:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a lot of crap around, but I have adjusted tohhe text. The 2003 genetic study cited says little or nothing about Anglo-Saxons, since it is unable to distinguish Anglo-Saxon and Danish genetic markers, and its main focus is on the lack of Norwegian influence. Myopic Bookworm 11:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I take strong exception to the item "Vadalism to Anglo-Saxon Artcle" [sic] placed on my user page. I have not vandalized this page: I have attempted in good faith to restructure in a more appropriate wording a factual section added by another editor, on the basis of my own reading of the scientific article cited. This article is a historical article about the Anglo-Saxons. It is a common and long-standing perception that the Anglo-Saxon settlement displaced a "Celtic" population, and it is entirely relevant to report, accurately and neutrally, in this context, recent scientific studies suggesting that the shift to Anglo-Saxon culture in Britain was not acompanied by a wholesale change in the nature of the population, as was traditionally supposed. The present genetic make-up of Britain is relevant only insofar as it provides evidence for the historical facts of this article. I am not interested in "genetic wars", or in nationalist bigotry by English or "Celtic" enthusiasts: I am interested in reporting an anthropological fact relevant to this article. To attempt to silence anyone who tries to report this aspect of the subject is itself vandalism. Myopic Bookworm 16:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: PS And I have not blanked or deleted content as stated, though I think the current templates on the page are inappropriate. And I actually have a user page, which many of the most outspoken people on this Talk page seem not to. Myopic Bookworm 16:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality/Accuracy

message: An obversation: People love to vandalize this page. Is it a serious enough problem for the page to be lockedd, or is it fine as is? Lordofallkobuns 18:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page seems to be a popular target for vandals. 

message: PLEASE KEEP GENETIC DEBATE FROM THIS ARTCLE AND STOP PUTTING 'ARTICLE DISPUTED' VANDALISM ON THIS TOP OF THE ARTCLE.
This artcle on a known and accepted group about has been around a long time. It is NOT disputed. Stop your POV vandalism or get reported.  89.243.227.190 10:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not the one vandalising this page. I tried to add some reasonable, neutral pov changes, addressing the issues I brought up, but they were removed, so the article remains disputed. (Nebulousity 15:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism by 84.13.253.172 

message: Clear unjustified removal of content by the above. Undone. More unwelcome POV creep.  78.147.111.31 06:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Jmlk17 is a Wikipedia:Administrator, and is in no way pushing any viewpoint. I suggest that rather than jumping to incorrect conclusions, you review WP:CIVIL and request politely, his reasons why the edit was reverted, as I am more than sure he would be willing to explain why he reverted your changes, and I'm also equally sure it had nothing to do with any Point of View he may have. Ariel♥Gold 21:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of content vandalism by [[User:Nebulousity|Nebulousity]] 

message: Mypoic Book worm claims that a Y Chromosome markers show that somehow the Brythonic Peple were not largely displaced by the Anglo-Saxons. But the UCL study of 2003 the Male Y Chromosome indicating a 50-100% change across the whole of England, plus alot of Scotland and Wales. With alot of Viking in Ireland too. UCL study here.  [] But - if you read the study correctly - because the ENGLES (Angles as I am sure you know,) were originally Viking peoples - they cannot tell the latter Vikings from the realier Anglo-Saxons. This has been discussed before above. Please read the discussions above. On top of which this article is not about genetics it is about the Anglo Saxons. Their culture laws etc. This is clearly difficult for Myopic Bookworm to undertstand. Please do so. Tnanks. 
Removal of the poorly interpreted citation of the Capelli study. Please go to the Migration debate to talk about it there. Hartram 20:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't claim anything: I just read the paper. I have no axe to grind: I just think the topic should at least be mentioned in this article. It is not appropriate to cover the full detail in this context, but it is relevant. By the way, it is specifically the Danish Vikings that are hard to distinguish genetically from Anglo-Saxons: the markers for the Norwegian Vikings can be distinguished. The term "Viking" has not historically been used for the Anglo-Saxon invaders. Myopic Bookworm 13:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of the Y Choromosome 'evidence' 

message: Removal of :: Recent genetic studies suggest that the number of Anglo-Saxons migrants in Britain may have been more limited than previously supposed, contradicting the widespread assumption that the earlier Romano-British population were either killed or driven back into Wales and Cornwall by an invading people.  A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles; Cristian Capelli, Nicola Redhead, Julia K. Abernethy, Fiona Gratrix, James F. Wilson, Torolf Moen, Tor Hervig, Martin Richards, Michael P. H. Stumpf, Peter A. Underhill, Paul Bradshaw, Alom Shaha, Mark G. Thomas, Neal Bradman, and David B. Goldstein Current Biology, Volume 13, Issue 11, Pages 979-984 (2003). Retrieved 6 December 2005.
More genetic stuff from Myopic Bookworm who by an admission above does not know anything about Anglo-Saxons nor Anglo-Saxon history but is merely trying by various means to continually insert a POV in the article. I wil come back with more on quote to show the extent of text supporting various migration indicators on the correct migration page. This article is not about the Romano Brythons. Simple really. Hartram 17:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please remember you do not own this article, so if other editors disagree with some of your edits, discuss it first. WP:OWN. → jacĸrм (  talk |   sign ) 17:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't understand. What do you think is pov? Have you read the 2003 Capelli et. al study? (NovusTabula 08:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of text about Britons. 

message: I am particularly interseted in Anglo-Saxon / Germanic tribe warfsre. Plus other stuff. I am going to start to add some more to the article. Anyone want to help? Starting with warfare using Stenton and Stephen Pollington. I got two years at Uni on this so I might as well. Hartram 21:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More levels 

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thread_title: Image source problem with Image:Alfred jewel.JPG