Talk:Battle of Red Cliffs/Archive 1

message: With no reliable sources and with nothing besides inferences and OR to back up his importance, I have to say that Zhuge Liang's should not be inlcluded in the infobox as a commander. The personal attacks that have occurred above are unacceptable, the Wikipedia community does not tolerate them, so please remember to be civil. --Hetar 01:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3rd Opinion 

message: vandelism Im reverting
SelfStudyBuddy 23:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandelism! 

message: As many of you know, the ROTK novel points out how things went accordingly from its own P.O.V. It is true that Zhuge Liang was around at the time, but I would hardly say he did any military action except provide the South Land Army with the South-East Wind and the Arrows. More or less, Zhuge Liang only stirrs Zhou Yu and Sun Quan into action rather then have them submit to Cao Cao. (All from the novel's P.O.V.)
Zhou Yu, on the other hand, he would have been willing to submit; however, if Zhuge Liang did not bring his wife into the matter then Chi Bi would have never existed. The only funny thing was is that Zhou Yu and Lu Su saw how easily the South Land was used to do the work of fighting against Cao Cao and sending his army back to Xu Chang. Thus, with that happening, Zhuge Liang would be able to expand Shu's border lines and gain Jing in the process. (Once again, from the novel but please correct me if I'm wrong.)
For those of you who have read the novel as I have, remember this: It is only being based on inaccurate events, but everything that happened I'm sure was real enough. Get back to ya about it later on.--Zhang Liao 22:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Events of Chi Bi Before, Duing, and After 

message: This article doesn't cite a single source, and I have a hard time accepting that it should be classified as B-grade status.  It throws around numbers with no justification at all.  The article needs a serious cleanup before anyone could take it seriously. These words may seems harsh, but I think the complete lack of sources (even in Chinese) is a major strike against the quality of this article. -- Exitmoose 00:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources, please

message: I'm busy with tests at the moment. Over the next couple weeks I hope to take this article to GA. Then.. who knows how long it will take.. to FA. Anyone who wants to help, please join in... Ling.Nut 12:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA, FA 

message: Not sure his goals were explicitly given, outside ROTK perhaps. de Crespigny thinks he may have been there to make a show of force and negotiate terms, as well as creating a line of defense for himself via key garrisons, rather than crush his opponents.... Ling.Nut 15:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "goal of eliminating his main rivals to the south." 

message: ...so following in the footsteps of deadkid_dk, I've made an English version of the map of Chibizhizhan: :Image:Chibizhizhan eng2.png. OK to replace current map?
thanks
Ling.Nut 02:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  alternate image? 

message: Was Zhuge a commander in the hstorical accounts, or only in ROTK? If only in ROTK then he needs to be removed from the infobox, and his commandership in ROTK noted in the "Fictional account" section.... thanks! Ling.Nut 12:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had a woeful discussion with an anonymous user about that topic on this very page, let it be known that he was no commander. _dk 00:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zhuge Liang a Commander? 

message: Hey, I'm looking for verification of the several statements about Jingzhou in the "Aftermath" section, and at least in the initial search have come up empty-handed... Ling.Nut 23:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, Cao Cao never was in possession of the whole Jing province. He defeated Liu Biao and drove away his subject Liu Bei. After being defeated at Red Cliffs by the joint forces of Liu Bei and Sun Quan, both Sun Quan and Liu Bei conquered the Jing province while Cao Cao licked his wounds. Liu Bei was known to the local administrators and, at that time, more a subject than an equal to Sun Quan. Later, Jing province was devided and quarrelled about, as you all know. Take a look at Generals of the South, ch. 4 & 5. Sarazyn • 丁ALK • DE 11:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Liu Biao died of sickness before Cao Cao's armies ever marched on Jing.  His second son, Liu Cong, surrendered Jing to Cao Cao because he believed that, even if they could defeat him, Liu Bei would eventually turn on him anyway. Gamer Junkie 15:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but my point/question specifically regards the discussion of the place "Jingzhou." I would like to see references to back up the assertions made in discussion of that specific city, so that we will know it's not from ROTK, KOEI or ROTFL. I would also like to see a reference (with a page number, preferably) regarding Sun Quan's jealousy; that sounds pretty ROTK-ish. I may be able to look some up sometime this week. We'll see. But if anyone else can nail them sooner, please do. Thanks! Ling.Nut 17:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Jing was the territory that Sun Wu believed was rightfully theirs and which Shu Han refused to return. To retake the territory, the Sun Wu army snuck in through Jiangling, which is apparently in Jingzhou, while Guan Yu was occupied at the Battle of Fancheng.  I have little doubt that this "Jingzhou" is Jing Province. Gamer Junkie 21:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed the ambiguity of "fortress" and the inconsistency in the use of "Jing Province," but didn't check to see if it flows well.  Can copyedit tomorrow... Ling.Nut 01:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now tha I look at this again, it appears as though I'm saying Jing Province is the current Jingzhou, which I'm not, since I wouldn't know.  What I am saying is that the editor who wrote the section is probably incorrectly referring to what is supposed to be Jing Province as Jingzhou.  Just thought I'd clear that up. Gamer Junkie 15:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jingzhou &ndash; a little help, please 

message: "Sun Quan was extremely bitter over his claims that Jing Province belonged to him, and all ties with Liu-Sun were severed. While Cao Cao retreated to reform his army and retrain his troops, Liu Bei and Sun Quan continued to squabble over the control of Jing Province in the south. Although eventually most of the entire Jing Province was ceded to Wu, it almost torn the Sun-Liu alliance sunder irreversibly and permanently when Guan Yu was executed by Lu Meng."
Two different events cited as breaking the Liu-Sun alliance; not sure either is really a deciding factor, plus I'm not sure that the latter is directly related to Red Cliffs. I'm just gonna delete that last bit about Guan Yu/Lu Meng, but help here would be appreciated. --Ling.Nut 11:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, Cao Cao didn't retreat to reform his army and retrain his troops; he retreated to concentrate on another region... I'm just gonna delete this whole paragraph.PLease feel free to replace it with better info. --Ling.Nut 11:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  aftermath