Talk:Bon

message: This is another section which is not specific to Bon. And seems to confuse Bon, Dzogchen and Tantra. As there is already an entry Ngagpa I delete this section here. --Menmo 21:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ngakpa section 

message: Could someone add the IPA pronunciation of "Bön" please?  --LakeHMM 02:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, judging from Tibetan Pinyin, bön is apparently pronounced /pʰøn/, although you could probably get away with /bøn/ and maybe that's preferable. Note that bon is also correct, and that is pronounced /bon/ (same as the English "bone"). Actually, I wonder if this article should be moved to bon, which is the older form of the word.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tibetan Pinyin is not a good way for determining the pronounciation. The word (bon in Wylie) is pronounced with an umlaut, and the n is nasalised similar to bon in French. As it is actually pronounced with umlaut, I think it's ok to keep the entry as Bön.--Menmo 11:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pronounced with an umlaut in modern Lhasa dialect Tibetan. It was pronounced without an umlaut in classical Tibetan. You are correct about the value of the "n" ... I should have said to pronounce it /pʰø̃/ or /bø̃/, although /bøn/ is still a reasonable approximation for someone with an English accent.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 16:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation 

message: The lead section needs to be shortened. According to the Wikipedia:Lead_section#Length, it should be no more than three or four paragraphs. A Ramachandran 13:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: Sanskrit terms are used on occasion in this article. I suggest that the either they be excised, or some explanation be added as to how an indigenous Tibetan religion came to employ them. Sylvain1972 20:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sanskrit

message: The word "dorje" is definitely Tibetan (Wylie rdo rje), not Mongol.  Is the quotation from Pegg accurate?  In other words, did Pegg get this wrong, or (as seems more likely) did someone transcribe it incorrectly? 
Also the quotation seems irrelevant to the subject of the section.  Also, the implements listed are not specific to Bön but are equally used by Buddhists (and I think probably also Shaivites, but I'm not certain about that). I would favor deleting it altogether.  -- Actually, I am going to be bold and will go ahead and do that, and if someone wants to revert, they can (but it would be nice to have an explanation of why this belongs and how it is relevant and whether it is accurate).
Arthur chos (talk) 05:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dorje" is not Mongol, implements not relevant 

message: :Category:Bon is itself a category within :Category:Asian shamanism. — Robert Greer (talk) 22:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Asian shamanism]] ''vs.'' [[:Category:Bon]]  

message: I'm under the impression that "Bönpo" is the adjective applied to things associated with Bön. I'm pretty sure that the correct term would be "the Bönpo religion", but in the article, I see "the Bön religion". Isn't that kind of like calling Buddhism "the Buddhism religion" rather than "the Buddhist religion"? Gringo300 (talk) 05:11, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am under the impression that Bönpo refers primarily to people associated with the Bön religion, but I may be wrong. Hans Adler 06:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am under the impression that -po is exclusively a noun-izing suffix in Tibetan. Depending on context, it can refer either to a person specifically or to any type of thing more generally, but, in this sort of context, I think it would refer only to persons. So, I don't think Bönpo is any kind of adjective. I think the most typical strategy used by English in this type of situations would simply be to use the unmodified noun as an attributive, e.g. a Shinto shrine-maiden or a Zen monk, etc. Regarding Tibetan terms specifically, one sees expressions like both a Gelug lama or a Gelugpa lama, but I think the former is more common.—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 02:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: terminology

message: There is a much better discussion of the history and teachings of bon at http://bon-encyclopedia.wikispaces.com/bon+overview.
The Description below was taken From http://www.olmoling.org/contents/bon_bonpo - an actual Bon Lama.
Bon and Bonpo
‘Bon’ means ‘Boundlessness’. Its essence is the truth that lies within everything. It is the truth that pervades throughout time and space. It is the miracle that manifests in every moment. Bon is also the spiritual tradition and ancient culture of the Zhang-Zhung Civilization and of Tibet.
The founder of the ancient Bon spiritual tradition was the Buddha Tonpa Shenrab. Tonpa Shenrab was born at the palace Barpo Sogye of Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring. According to the Bon canon, his birth dates 18,000 years ago. His father was Gyalbon Thodkar of the Mu clan and his mother Yonchi Gyalzhedma. His teachings are called ‘Yung Drung Bon’ or ‘Eternal Bon’, and practitioners of Bon are called ‘Bonpo’. The great Shenrab dedicated his whole life to the practice of Eternal Bon for the benefit of all beings. He taught the teaching of Eternal Bon for about five decades, showing the path of compassion to many beings. At the age of 82 he entered into nirvana. His death was a true remainder to many of his followers that we all have to experience the truth of impermanence. Throughout Shenrab’s teaching he tried to communicate with every being, showing them how to recognize their true nature and live with the moment. The essence of his teachings is how to find our home within and abide joyfully with the treasury of contentment that we are all gifted with. His teachings continue to inspire many beings throughout the centuries.
1,800 years later, Mucho Dem Drug organized and classified the entire teaching of Tonpa Shenrab into four categories. The prayers, mantras, the teachings on monastic discipline or precepts, and the biography of Tonpa Shenrab were arranged as part of the Sutra collection (mDo). The second category, Prajnaparamita or ‘Bum’, consists of the detailed exposition of the Perfection of Wisdom teachings. The third category, Tantra, consists of deity visualization, and ritual and esoteric tantric practices. The forth category, ‘mDzod’ consists of the teachings on Dzogchen meditation practices. He also wrote commentaries to these teachings and taught them to many students. Through his teachings and efforts, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon flourished throughout Zhang_Zhung and Tibet. Out of his many students, six become great scholars who translated the teachings of Yung Drung Bon into different languages: Mutsa Tahe and Guhuli Paraya translated Yung Drung Bon into the language of Tagzig. Tritok Partsa translated Yung Drung Bon into Zhang Zhung. Letang Mangpo translated Yung Drung Bon into Chinese. Lhadag Ngadro translated Yung Drung Bon into Indian language, and Sertok Chezam translated Yung Drung Bon into the language of Trom. Through the help of these great scholars, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon reached many parts of the world. In the Bon Canon, these six great scholars are known under the name of “Jamling Khepi Gyendrug”. Later, Tongyu Thuchen of Zhang Zhung translated Yung Drung Bon into Tibetan with the help of the three Tibetan scholars Shari Wuchen, GyimTsa Machung and Chetsa kharbu. After this, the teachings of Yung Drung Bon flourished throughout Tibet.
Around 1196 B.C., Zhutrul Yeshi, a great master from Tagzig established the Bon monastic system and propagated the practice of monastic discipline and philosophical study in the kingdoms of Zhang Zhung and Tibet with energy and devotion. Mutri Tsenpo, the second king of Tibet, was interested in the Bon trantric practice Drakpa Kor Sum and invited many scholars from Zhang Zhung to teach it. Through his efforts, the practice of Tantra, the path of transformation, flourished widely in Tibet.
In the late 7th century, Buddhism came to Tibet from India. During that transition period Bon faced difficulties, yet it survived with the help of great masters who buried and hid many Bon teaching resources. During the reign of Lang Darma, the 40th king of Tibet, Buddhism was entirely terminated. Its first transmission and Tibet went into a spiritual dark age for about a century and a half.
The second transmission for both Bon and Buddhist began around the 10th century. The great Bon master and Terton Shen Chen Luga (996-1035 AD) rediscovered many Bon scriptures that were hidden by earlier Bon masters. One of his students, Dru Yung Drung Lama, founded Yeru Wensaka Monastery in 1072 AD. Yeru Wensaka become the main study center of Bon Practice for many centuries. Unfortunately, it was destroyed by a flood. In 1405 AD, Nyamed Shenrab Gyaltsen from Yeru Wensaka Monastery founded Menri Monastery in place of Yeru Wensaka. Since then, Menri has become the mother monastery of all Bonpos. The abbot of Menri is given the title of the world spiritual head of the Bon tradition. Nyamed Shenrab Gyaltsen became the first abbot of Menri. During the Cultural Revolution in 1959, Menri was destroyed. Later it was reestablished in northern India by Yongzding Tenzing Namdak Rinpoche and His Holiness Lungtok Tenpei Nyima Rinpoche, the 33rd Menri Trizin and head of the Bon tradition.
By Tempa Dukte Lama
Lazzara399 (talk) 22:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: General Page Comment

message: "However, Tibetans still differentiate between Bön and Buddhism, referring to members of the Nyingma, Shakya, Kagyu and Gelug schools as nangpa, meaning "insiders," but to practitioners of Bön as "Bönpo," or even chipa ("outsiders").[20][21]"
I'm pretty sure this contrasts the Buddhist practice of meditation against the originally Bonpo practice of sky-gazing, (although both traditions use both practices now) as in internalists vs. externalists. To me, this phrasing suggests that the appellation "outsiders" is attached to Bonpos with the connotation of "outcast". This much, I think, is untrue.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.215.252 (talk) 17:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the question is whether "chipa" also refers to people who are neither Buddhists nor Bönpo. If so, then it probably doesn't originally refer to sky-gazing.—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 21:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "outsiders" 

message: I challenge the first sentence of the article..."Bon is the oldest extant spiritual tradition of Tibet."
We do not have a single Bon text which can be dated earlier that the 11th century. Bon is a branch of Tibetan Vajrayana, which itself is the main surviving branch of Indian Vajrayana.  I think this needs to be made clear because people demean Bon as some sort of shamanism.  Dr. Sam van Schaik says the term "Bon" first comes about by end of the tenth century BUDDHISTS to designate RETROACTIVELY old funerary rites.  
http://earlytibet.com/2009/08/24/buddhism-and-bon-iv/
Thigle (talk) 19:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  I challenge the first sentence of the article 

message: I guess blogs by respected published authors are not allowed?LhunGrub (talk) 14:56, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Random wordpress blogs are not reliable sources.  I can start a wordpress blog and claim to be any author I wish, which makes them generally unreliable, per WP:SPS. - SudoGhost 15:10, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:SPS: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."LhunGrub (talk) 19:16, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but there's no verification that the person using that wordpress blog is the person he claims to be, thus it is not a reliable source. - SudoGhost 19:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Wordpress blogs as references

message: understanding tibetan buddhism: bon - a heterodox system. I don't know. It sounds like some articles like I posted above implies that Bön and generic animism are separate entities. Kinda confusing. Komitsuki (talk) 15:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Bön means a variety of things in different cases. Modern organised Bön is very close to Buddhism, but that's not the only sense of it.—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 04:14, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bön, a belief separated from animism? 

message: The following citation in the Further reading: section:
 Pegg, Carole (2006). Inner Asia Religious Contexts: Folk-religious Practices, Shamanism, Tantric Buddhist Practices. Oxford University Press. Grove Music Online. Source: http://www.grovemusic.com/shared/views/srticle.html?section=music.05283#music.05283 (accessed: January 17, 2007)
links to the Oxford press site; however, a subscription to the site is apparently required, users are therefore unable to read the further reading, something which I suspect most readers would find frustrating.  Does anyone know of any other links to this information which would be freely accessible to readers without a need to subscribe?  If not, I'd suggest that the link be deleted leaving just the reference (and an ISBN # or equivalent if on exists); so that readers can pursue the information for themselves without feeling somehow suckered to a site that's asking them to subscribe (even if it is Oxford). — Who R you? Talk 06:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I don't think any further reading content should link to a paywall. - SudoGhost 06:51, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

text: *I'll take a look then, and if you haven't already removed the link portion, I will. — Who R you? Talk 11:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem citation link 

message: "Bon or Bön(Tibetan: བོན་, Wylie: bon [pʰø̃̀(n)]) is a branch of Tibetan Vajrayana." this is strange. If you ask someone who believes in Bon, he won't agree.  --Danielinblue (talk) 11:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  a branch of Tibetan Vajrayana? 

message: http://www.tibetanresearch.org/Shamanism.htm. I think this has some concise info on Bon. Komitsuki (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shamanic traditions in Tibet 

message: The first couple sentences of this article seem to be refuting an argument or viewpoint that hasn't even been introduced. It doesn't make sense to someone unfamiliar with the subject. If there's some dispute over the age of the religion, it should be in the body of the text, not the first paragraph. I don't know enough about the subject to edit this properly but someone should. --109.158.214.140 (talk) 15:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening section makes no sense 

message: It said in the article that, the chief gods the White Old Man and his consort. I've read on other sites, regarding Bon, that their chief deity is a mother goddess named 'Yum.'--Splashen (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Gods

message: Substituted at 10:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article is missing notes on the theological doctrine of Bon, which I feel is a must-have for any article concerning religion. The Verified Cactus 100% 22:38, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned in the article, Bon shares a lot of overlap with the form of Buddhism practiced in Tibet. Theology proper is not really much of a concern in Buddhism unless you use it very broadly to speak about any supernatural persons. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I see, thanks. The Verified Cactus 100% 13:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theology? 

message: Made extensive edits to the opening paragraph, as it was misleading and poorly sourced. I also moved the definitions section to the top and filled it out with scholarly sources. 2607:F2C0:9379:4E00:48FF:46B6:8BF8:879F (talk) 01:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: New Edits

message: The article is missing all mention of the religion prior to what is termed "rediscovery". Since it precedes the arrival of Buddhism I expect to read about this time period, its relationship with Buddhism, the conversion of Tibet and how the religions coexisted/not coexisted. Right now, it reads as though someone discovered an ancient religion in the late Middle Ages, which does not sound right. 134.100.201.250 (talk) 12:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section