Talk:Religion in Turkey

message: 99.8% is a very dubious number and is probably very much on the higher side. More than a result of a rigorous polling, it seems to originate from a comparison of the population of "officially recognized religious minorities" to the general population, including everyone else in the muslim community. Nevermind that these official minorities are underreported, it fails to account for foreign nationals living in Turkey, or members of unrecognized religious minorities (such as ethnic Turks of Protestant Christian faith or people of Yazidi faith), and it also fails to account for people of no religious affiliations, ie atheists. That figure being cited so often, and being just the same figure down to the decimal point for as long as I can remember, it is clear to me that it is more misleading than informative. An alternative to the sentence in the text could have been a something like "Although %99.8 of the citizens of Turkey are of muslim turkish ancestry, Turkey has no officially recognized state religion and the secularity of the government is protected by the constitution", but a start like "It is estimated that over 99% of turkish population ..." would be much more acceptable.
:Well, I added "nominally". I have been trying for months to find an actual survey on this, but there are none. If I put in anything else that would also be a wild guess. These are the best figures that there are. If you ever find a good source or a survey (books etc are not good, because they all differ in their guess work), please bring it in. As for the foreigners, they do not quite fall under the scope of this article since they are not Turkish citizens are are considered temporary residents. Their inclusion in the statistics can skew the surveys since they can simply leave after five months. As for Yezidis. There are not many left in Turkey btw, so they wouldn't make up such a great number in any case. I will try to find more sources though.. Baristarim 16:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 99.8?

message: Religion in Turkey: 
Nominally, 97.4% of the Turkish population is Muslim
Islam in Turkey: 
About 99% of the population is officially claimed to be Muslim...
Which, if any is correct?--Cory Kohn 11:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradicts [[Islam in Turkey]] 

message: According to recent polls, surveys, and studies there is a growing number
of atheists and agnostics in Turkey:
 7.2% say that they do not practice any religion (ie. atheists or agnostics)
(the source of one of these studies is http://www.stargazete.com/index.asp?haberid=147097 ) 
The real number of atheists is much higher as it is not easy to freely declare yourself
as an atheist in a predominantly Muslim country. 
A collection of results of such recent studies gives the following result:
Religion in Turkey: 
 Sunnites      :  55.71 % 
 Shiites       :   1.84 % 
 Alevites      :  35.00 % 
 Atheists etc. :   7.20 % 
 Christians    :   0.20 % 
 Jews          :   0.04 % 
 Other         :   0.01 % 
 ------------------------ 
 Total         : 100.00 % 
The number of atheists and agnostics is even much more but it is not easy to
declare yourself as such in a predominantly Muslim country...
In Turkey about 7.7% are dangerous Sunnite Islamists. They want an Islamic State
and Sharia Laws like that in Iran or Saudi Arabia...
Using the above numbers, the total number of muslims in Turkey is less than 92.55 %.
But I guess there are at least twice that much atheists, so then the numbers become:
 Sunnites      :  47.91 % 
 Shiites       :   1.84 % 
 Alevites      :  35.00 % 
 Atheists etc. :  15.00 %  (my 'educated guestimate') 
 Christians    :   0.20 % 
 Jews          :   0.04 % 
 Other         :   0.01 % 
 ----------------------- 
 Total         : 100.00 % 
So then the real number of muslims in Turkey is about 84.75%
References and details for the above numbers (first table) can be found here:
  http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.turkish/msg/981c63f4ac1221d6
  http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.turkish/msg/2fd41c2e0a654d93  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.162.237.37 (talk) 09:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the place for speculation or original research; the 'educated' guesses above are not relevant. Mavigogun (talk) 05:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest Numbers (please compile this into the main page) 

message: The 'Intro Paragraph' is a rambling behemoth crammed full of extraneous (to a summary) information.   It needs to be rebuilt to full fill its purpose of acting as a succinct summation of the article.Mavigogun (talk) 05:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro Paragraph

message: The space given to this single source, regardless of subjective accuracy, is unbalanced and effectively attributes relative merit.Mavigogun (talk) 05:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: KONDA material

message: At the first paragraph, it says, more than 99 percent (in the "Islam" section 99.8%) of the population is Muslim. That is not true. 99.8% does not even believe in God. Officially, it may true. Because all the atheits seems Muslim at identity cards, it has been written at the birth automatichally if they parents are Muslim, and they do not try to change it. All the officers know and accept that these numbers are wrong. Numbers at the "Studies" section are truer. The Muslim population is not higher than 97%. Numbers at the fist paragtaph and "Islam" Section must be fixed. If noone demurs, I will change them.--Cfsenel (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  99% Muslim? 

message: ...Not even a picture of Hagia Sophia... seems like this article is especially written to glorify turkish "tolerance" for other relegions. When and if its creators and contributors decide to make it encyclopedic, I may contribute myself... Hectorian (talk) 00:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hagia Sophia]] 

message: Someone has been modifying the statistics from the KONDA survey, putting Atheism at 30%, Christianity around 13%,and Islam at 9%. Please adhere to the statistics that were published by the KONDA survey and do not vandalize.  The Fear (talk) 15:17, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism of Statistics

message: The muslim ratio of 99% shows a highly unrealistic number. In fact Turkey is unique in the world for a secular country to show that much high percentage in favor of a single religion, basically saying everybody is Muslim. This problem stems from the administrative approach of Turkey. The state simply subtracts the official Christian minorities from the total population and consider everyone else as Muslim. The identity cards of the citizens of Turkey feature a "religion" entry which is filled with the default "Islam" right at birth, no matter what the parents believe in. Nearly all of the atheists living in Turkey have "Islam" written on their identity cards. Until recently it was impossible for anybody to have Islam erased from their cards. Now a new legislation permits it. Still Islam is written as default religion but now those people that want their religion entry erased, are obliged to submit a formal petition to the birth or records office, which will result in total revision of the identity card. Few atheists care to bother the bureucratic formalities and take the time to make an application. There is also the fear of religious discrimination, since there is a tendency in Turkey about atheists being targeted in the army and by the police officers, and be subject to psychological (and sometimes physical) atrocities by the officers. Nevertheless, an increasing number of people have their cards free of religious entry in recent years.
With all these facts being considered, it can only be guessed by recent polls and from the discussions in internet forums, from the social media platforms that at least 40% of the people active on the web call themselves non-muslims. Although no perfectly meaningful conclusion can be derived from such an unpredictable data source, it should be taken as a side-source to reach to more logical numbers and rates. Besides, at least 65-70% of the population of Turkey is secular and are strictly against any Islamic influence on the state. Since Islam, in its nature, a religion that dictates a social and political structure as well as individual subordination, it is generally guessed from some of these peoples' defiance, a lot of people also have agnostic tendency, ie. they believe in God but not necessarily in Mohamed as a prophet, or the Islamic teachings. Again, since there is no concrete research about this, any comment will be a wild guess at best.
As a result, it would be safe to guess the following:
Muslims (sunni, alevi, secular muslims and other minor sects) : 77% 
Agnostics : 15%
Atheists  : 7%
Christians and Jewish: 1%  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jodien37 (talk • contribs) 10:07, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The incredibly high muslim ratio 

message: See my last edit . I asked "which report?" for a report Jewish religious freedoms on Turkey. I guess it's the report in the previous paragraph but I'm not sure since its link is not working. Kavas (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Which report?

message: Found in the "Restriction of alcoholic sales and advertising" section. As Turkey is secular and there are Christians and Jews in Turkey anyway, is this really relevant to this section of the article? 195.162.87.201 (talk) 11:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if it can be demonstrated that through WP:V and WP:RS that there is a direct correlation between the these laws the imposition of religious ideology. Many nation-states have forms of restriction on advertising through legislature however, as there is a link to an article alluding to the religious nature of the legislature, I'd suggest that the section needs to be developed as it's simplistic at best. At the moment the two sentences read as a bad synthesis or POV. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:58, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case I'd be happy to remove the text "The consumption of alcohol is prohibited in the Islamic Faith", it looks clumsy and may have a place elsewhere in the article but adds nothing to that particular section in it's current format. 195.162.87.201 (talk) 14:57, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As no one has else has responded to this section, and considering that no correlation has been identified through sources, I'd agree that it should be removed. Should anyone wish to reintroduce it citing sources as to there being a verifiable correlation, they may do so. At the moment it is purely speculative WP:POV. I'll remove it now. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:01, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Consumption of alcohol is prohibited by Islamic faith

message: People with nothing better to do seem intent on vandalizing the pie chart that shows the breakdown between the Sunni, Alevi and Other religious segments of the Turkish population.   Pursuant to that, I have requested that temporary semi-protection be implemented on this article to stop the edit warring, which is occurring between unregistered and newly registered users. Wgw2024 (talk) 08:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't been editing but do you have a reference for the data in the pie chart?   Admittedly the table is just as bad in that regard.  --Erp (talk) 04:28, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the pie chart.  Though it would be nice to have one the data we have is too imprecise or unreliable (plus the chart had no citation).  --Erp (talk) 22:16, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

text: And unfortunately a lot of them are woefully inaccurate and frequently misrepresent the source. My own view is that such pie charts should have one reliable source otherwise we have the problem of different wording of questions, different times, etc.  Such charts should also accurately reflect the source, no merging of the source's categories unless it is clear a merge has taken place, no changing of category names (though translation might be appropriate).  For this article I looked at the table later in the article and realized that figures were all over the place. Erp (talk) 23:44, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

text: And does it also come from a single respected source?  You cannot mingle sources (unless you can show that both sources are based on the same original source).  The CIA Factbook (2007, other than not stating its sources) only gives figures for Muslims and Others.  The Joshua Project (ref 2) also doesn't list its sources (for all we know it could be taking facts from Wikipedia); I also am not sure of its reliability given its stated aim is to convert people to a particular form of Christianity.  I'm not sure why ref 3 (from the Library of Congress, Federal Research Division, 2006 and repeated in a 2008 version) is where it is; it states >99% Muslim and 10-25% as Alevi.  Ref 4 by David Zeidan seems to be a non-authoritative web page and dates from 1995; it gives 25% for Alevi. Ref 6 (Shankland 2003, which seems to be an academic book) states that figures from 10-30% have been offered; the author feels (but is very clear this is tentative) that it is about 15%. No cite for the Twelver Shia figure of 3% though ref 5 (Philtar, which at least is published by a university) gives 1.5 million in 1980.  The Sufi info is not supported by ref 5 so I think ref 5 is misplaced in the article.  Can't find the original for ref7.  The info we have is too approximate to make a pie chart; the most we can do is.  The most we can accurately state is that at least 99% of the population is Muslim of whom 10% to 30% are Alevi with at least one academic expert, David Shankland, Reader in Anthropology at the University of Bristol, in 2003 tentatively feeling that it is about 15% (this is clear evidence that not even the experts are sure). This is not sufficient to put in a pie chart (except for one of one color for Muslim with a tiny <1% sliver for other). --Erp (talk) 07:47, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated vandalism of the demographics piechart and related information

message: A small, less than 5,000, Turkish Protestant Christian community most of whose members are of recent Muslim Turkish background also exists.
I've extract the disputed bit, rewrote slightly, and expanded the references.  The references look reasonable to me and support the statement.  However it should be balanced by numbers for some of the other Christian groups especially since many of the other groups are significantly larger. --Erp (talk) 20:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protestants in Turkey 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: # Religion is hyponym of some people, the hypernym is Personal Metaphysical Belief(s). Metaphysics officially means metalogic of physics, not supersensualism. Rename the page Personal Metaphysical Beliefs in Turkey because the survey is about the wider hypernym and not only about the religious people. Also correct all similar articles. In statistics and in mathematics, if one person is correct and a sea of morons are erroneous, only the correct grouping/batching of entries matters. Read Georg Cantor!
# You have erroneously merged the hypogroups Atheism, Agnosticism and Nontheism (religiously undeclared or indifferent) under the hypergroup Irreligion but you haven't merged the hypogroups of Theism: Islam and Christianity under the hypergroup of Religion (or Theism). Philosophically Atheism, Agnosticism and Nontheism are different. Some scholars even fight dialectically to support their personal non-theistic view. Philosophical mergers are a mere gerrymandering or a Dawkinsism. Richard Dawkins sometimes (not always) wants more to unite people against religion, than to be analytical about his personal antimetaphysicality/antisupersensuality. Antimetaphysicalism or antisupersensualism are hypernms of atheism, because it's not only about the denial of gods, but about anything outside science. Statistically few atheists declare they believe in soul or a non anthropomorphous god or a non personified theic/divine field. You have the right not to be analytical about the subgroup of atheism and not to mention the percentage of pure antimetaphysicalists/antisupersensualists simply because even Sunni Muslims exhibit regional differentiation and aren't presented fragmented into subgroups. We aren't supposed to add infinite statistical entries, because become unfollowable to study.
Merging though the hyponyms (Atheism, Agnosticism and Nontheism) under their hypernym Irreligion is ABSOLUTELY UNFAIR because you didn't merge the hyponyms of Theism/Religion (Islam and Christianity).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.214.21 (talk) 03:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hyponymification has tiers and we should try to treat each tier the same way (except if an entry has an extremely huge value so then we can be more analytical and expose a lower tier of hyponymification, or if some hypogroups altogether add up under 2% if combined under their hypergroup so then we can merge them).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.221.11 (talk) 03:29, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistakes 

message: a paragraph is titled:
Claims of increasing Islamization
the text supports the title to be:
Claims of increasing state Islamization
or
Claims of increasing Islamization of the state
or more accurately 
Claims of state imposed Islamization (but that will require even more citations and submitted facts)
If you still support the sense of overall Islamization, add links about it
and statistical facts which support it;
otherwise change the title.
Even if you claim: "it's not a fact but an opinion"
still you have to add better citations.
Your citations are either generic, or about political pressure.
It is important to be analytical in the title because:
# this article is big and correct titling is needed in order to support fast searching
# Turkey is alive and generates new data, thus this article does grow as all similar ones
::: in English bilectic nouns (bilectical, two worded, two-worded) do exist 
Islamization is a noun with a wider range of definitions (one could mean Islamization of the population) versus the bilectic noun state Islamization.
Being accurate is extremely important, because history never ends, so even opposite meanings do occur after many decades. Do you want to be always correct by using ambiguous language as the Pythia?
Pythianism (usage of ambiguous language) is religious and sometimes poetic, but by no means encyclopedic.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8773:4500:40B0:1930:C83F:EED6 (talk) 12:46, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear title 

message: https://web.archive.org/web/20170905105138/https://www.ipsosglobaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Slide13-6.jpg
This chart has no proof and should be deleted108.31.250.33 (talk) 04:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides, the chart ignores the Alevi population 15% completely108.31.250.33 (talk) 04:56, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ipsos global trends gives the following plot with no data 

message: According to the info in the article of Turkey, "In a mid-2010s poll, 2.9% of Turkish respondents identified as atheists." (human.nl) I would say that as someone who lives in Turkey, this information is realistic. See also the chart in Turkey#Religion. - Aybeg (talk) 09:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I support this stable version.Peacetowikied (talk) 11:14, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article is now fully protected for a period of 1 week to prevent vandalism or disruptive editing.TurkishMapper (talk) 12:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Turkish mapper this is reliable and official source and why are we usiing a ispos poll that doesn't even include half the stuff mentioned in the pie chart like "alevism". Straubook (talk) 14:44, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is definitely problematic that the chart in the article doesn't even match the source. At the least, Sunni should be fixed to 65%, not 67%, and "Alevism" should be changed to something like "Other Muslim" rather than making assumptions that aren't actually in the source data. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:37, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree except on the Alevism part as the absolute majority of "other muslims" in Turkey are alevis, or we can change this to something like "Alevis and other muslims", I'd prefer that personally. Or there is also another recent poll done by Optimar in 2019 which says that 89,5% of the population is muslim, 4,5% is deist, 2,7 is agnostic, 1,7% is atheist, and 1,7% is not sure. https://www.dusuncemektebi.com/d/184092/optimar-turkiye,-nufusunun-yuzde-895%E2%80%99i-musluman,-yuzde-45%E2%80%99i-deist,-yuzde-27%E2%80%99si-tanri%E2%80%99nin-varligindan-suphe-eden,-yuzde-17%E2%80%99si-ateist-bir-ulke But they count all religious people as muslims (since it's estimated that around 99% of the religious population in Turkey is islamic). TurkishMapper (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fine if you want to completely switch to another source, but we definitely should not use the IPSOS data as a source and then infer something that isn't stated in that data. That's completely against Wiki policy. -- Fyrael (talk) 22:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, originally the change was made by Tarek1998, I propose that once the protection is lifted we change to the right numbers and we don't touch anything else. As for the other source I already precised it in "religiosity" content. TurkishMapper (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

text: Another good option might be to leave out this chart altogether and just leave it to the prose to explain how various polls differ from the official government figures. Having a chart makes it seem like those are official numbers, which they clearly aren't, even if they do come from a good source. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Straubook is a possible sockpuppet of Arsi786 which has been vandalizing other articles a few days ago by editing numbers, removing sources that don't go with his agenda, or remplacing them instead with either Pew Research Center or CIA world factbook numbers (which are based on nothing but estimations or projections), his previous account was Azeriking55 (note : he isn't even azeri) which has been banned thanks to Drt1245's investigation, notice how he uses the same excuses and does the same grammar mistakes. We won't change just to please a sockpuppet account, I also wonder if ChechenWarrior is also another sockpuppet of him. Hashashi9 (talk) 21:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I created by account two or three days ago when I had seen a user by the name Tarek1998 making disruptive edits, so I am not a sockpuppet. Pew and CIA Factbook was used before I made my edits as I checked the references given, and the CIA World Factbook is reliable as CIA have released it so you cannot say its just projections.Straubook|Straubook (talk) 03:29, 06 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The weird part of the CIA Factbook number is that it's exactly the same in every year's version of the Factbook going back to at least 2010 (downloading older versions gave me errors). Seems highly suspect. -- Fyrael (talk) 06:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What about PEW? Do you think its trustworthy and should we either undue tarek1998 edits and keep the original pie chart, or remove the pie chart as its controversial.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Straubook (talk • contribs) 03:44, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The pie chart isn't controversial as most people people here has already stated that they support this stable version, you're the only one complaining about that here because the numbers don't please you because it has atheists and isn't 99% muslim as you wish, just like you vandalize other pie charts with your other accounts. Hashasi9 (talk) 10:26, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it is controversial. There are non-sock accounts that have changed various things recently and as I've said I would support removing the chart as I think it's misleading and giving WP:UNDUE weight. -- Fyrael (talk) 15:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

text:  Eventually you can add MuhammadxHusayn on the list. TurkishMapper (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

text: That is original research.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacetowikied (talk • contribs) 23:13, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "99.8% Islam" is so ridiculous 

message: Hi, concerning irreligion in Turkey can someone add this somewhere "Another poll conducted by Gezici Araştırma in 2020 found that 28,5% of Gen Z in Turkey are atheists, and only 15,7% pratice Islam. https://www.sozcu.com.tr/2020/gundem/gezici-arastirma-merkezi-baskani-murat-gezici-sozcuye-acikladi-turkiyenin-kaderi-z-kusaginin-elinde-5867771/https://www.gercekgundem.com/siyaset/188215/gezici-arastirma-merkezi-baskani-murat-gezici-turkiyenin-kaderi-z-kusaginin-elinde" I wanted to do it but I can't because the article is protected. Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.184.124.155 (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Irreligion in Turkey

message: Shouldn't there be a pie chart? Why was the one from Palpatine the Good removed? Gulvur (talk)  — Preceding undated comment added 22:46, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: =Pie Chart

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: We've included the claim that 99.8% of the population of Turkey is Muslim since the first version of this article in 2006. However, the Turkish version of this article doesn't mention the 99.8% figure at all. I also wasn't able to find any official Turkish sources making this claim. The only semi-official source I've been able to find for it so far is the CIA World Factbook, which doesn't give a year or source for the figure (although I've confirmed it goes back to at least the 1999 World Factbook). Since the figure is outdated and possibly untraceable to a primary source, I think it should be removed from the article. Nosferattus (talk) 20:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  99.8% Muslim figure 

message: I live in Turkey, and nobody in my class or people I know identifies as a muslim. All of them identifies as non-religious. ( Atheist, deism... ) Even when I ask " What is your religion ? " to my teachers, I get answers like Atheism and Agnosticism. The 99% Muslim claim is just a false claim for the government to fool themselves. I request it to be changed. It's not accurate at all. It's impossible to be 99%. It should be around 25% - 45%. 24.133.172.217 (talk) 13:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  99% Muslim is wrong and outdated