Talk:Endymion (mythology)

message: Who is Naxos? Rich Farmbrough 22:53, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I would like to open this discussion on whether Endymion was raped by Selene or not. When I put him in the "Mythological rape victims" category and put her in the "Mythological rapists" category, user P Aculeius reversed my edits and the following discussion ensued: click here.
So I want to know, once and for all, if I am right or wrong in considering that Endymion was constantly raped by Selene, as he was unconscious (sleeping eternal sleep) every time she had sex with him. Endymion never consented to this, for, as far as I could research, the sources only cite that Selene found him when he was already under the effects of Hypnos' eternal sleep. And to that I add the question: what if their roles were switched, and it was Endymion copulating with an unconscious and non-consenting Selene, would there be any doubt whether it's rape or not? --FábioScorpio (talk) 22:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree with P Aculeius. This is mythology, and the point of the story is surely about male arousal while asleep more than anything else. Johnbod (talk) 12:56, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh sure. If a man's penis gets hard while being sexually violated without his consent, then it's not rape. --FábioScorpio (talk) 01:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Is there any academic source describing Endymion as a rape victim? T8612 (talk) 13:37, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it necessary for some academic source to say that rape is rape? --FábioScorpio (talk) 01:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Pretty much, yes. Johnbod (talk) 01:35, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I also tend to agree with P Aculeius. However how we would characterize Selene's supposed relationship with Endymion is irrelevant. What matters is how reliable sources characterize it.  I believe that I've read most (if not all) of the most important sources on Selene, and none of them call it rape. Paul August ☎ 13:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because the ancient Greeks didn't call it rape when a man is a victim of a woman doesn't mean it isn't rape. --FábioScorpio (talk) 01:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Is this seriously being discussed? Is it serious that you are all questioning whether a person is sexually violated while unconscious, without their consent, whether that is rape or not? And are you still concluding that it is NOT rape? What kind of """human beings""" are you all? --FábioScorpio (talk) 01:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I agree with T8612, Jonbod, and Paul. What we ought to put on Wikipedia is not based on our assessment, objective or not, as to whether something meets some definition (whether an old or new definition). If modern academic sources assert it is rape, it should be put in the article. If otherwise, such an assessment would not be verifiable. It therefore would not merit inclusion. If you think your claim is self-evidently true, you should be able to find some reliable sources so claiming. Ifly6 (talk) 01:34, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: None of you are human. You don't even have blood in your veins. --FábioScorpio (talk) 00:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Reversion at Selene: the passage in Martial uses the word raptus, in the sense of an abduction, a carrying off—not that of someone ripping away a person's clothes and forcibly initiating sex.  Which, as was pointed out multiple times, does not apply to Endymion—nor in any of the examples mentioned by Martial.  In fact, the only person in this passage to which raptus clearly applies is Hylas, who was said to have been drawn under the water by naiads, never to be seen again.  There is no mention of sex in any form, willing or unwilling; the myth focuses on the fact that Hylas disappeared and could never be found.  Nothing in the various Atys/Attis myths suggests an inverted bride-abduction; they all concern the causes of the mutilation, death, and cult of a youth—derived, according to most scholarship, from the importation of a poorly-understood foreign cult.  Parthenopaeus does not seem to fit the definition of raptus either.  None of these examples correspond with the general connotations of "rape" in the modern sense, and only one of them in the classical sense.  The fact that Martial uses the word raptus does not justify the gloss you're placing on this article or at Selene.  And there clearly is not a consensus for doing so in this discussion.  P Aculeius (talk) 13:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: To this I only want to add that various in ancient artwork, you can see Endymion awake with Selene (here, here, here, and here), or little Erotes surrounding them (here) which is a sign of love and romance, meaning the myth was seen as romantic - compare the iconography of Eos with Cephalus or other men, which paints a different story. Deiadameian (talk) 15:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

text: As for the Martial passage, while the anonymous 1897 translation of Martial linked to does translate raptus as "rape", the  modern Loeb edition of Martial translates raptus as "ravished" (see pp. 320, 321). Paul August ☎ 13:33, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rape victim 

message: The first sentence really should be something like:
"In Greek mythology, Endymion was the lover of Selene (the Moon) who was given immortality in the form of eternal sleep."
I understand that there are a lot of variations to the story, but the lead really should spell out the basics for a casual reader, rather than go off into discussion about whether he was a shepherd or an astronomer and so on.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Doom (talk • contribs) 19:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: First sentence should be more informative