Talk:Nicholas John Baker/Archive 1

message: Folks, when the Nick Baker article become longer than the Wikipedia entry for the Hundred Years War, I knew it was time do a major edit. I have added Prosecution arguments and cut Defence arguments for balance and I have removed the message-board style "Detractors attack Supporters" and "Supporters attack Detractors" tailspin that had plagued the article. This was a lot of work and I hope others who find errors will make corrections, but please can you come here to the Talk page if you have arguments to make about the edit.
218.176.34.86 07:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Yup, it's a Major Edit!

message: A Mediation request has been made to stop supporters changing the facts, and the presentation of the facts of the case.
Sparkzilla 00:54, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your Request for Arbitration/Mediation is also premature. This should properly follow other steps to resolve editing disputes. Please see Resolving Disputes. Thanks!David Lyons 03:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this version. I think it is reasonably fair as it stands.Sparkzilla 03:21, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation Request

message: To Sparkzilla: Thanks for your input, I decided to edited down the section which you objected to, reducing the size and removing some quotations. It may be natural to want to voice your own position but bear in mind that this cannot be done by overriding other parts of the article.
The response to the Baker trials by prominent Japanese and international authorities is germane and should not be repeatedly blanked so as to leave only the arguments of a lone magazine publisher who is openly critical of Baker's supporters.
:The wikified quotes are better. However, criticism of the case and of the support group was from multiple sources as noted above.Sparkzilla 03:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Added reactions to the trials section

message: Arranged final comments into alphabetical order by source; standardised to British spelling; removed weasel words, for example substituted "said" (NPOV, this is reporting an opinion or position) for "noted" (POV because it implies something happened and was observed).
The US has the most people in jail per capita of any country in the world, higher than Sudan or Cuba -- so it's just dragging a red herring to bring up American crime rates and incarceration numbers in the discussion of a British defendant in a Japanese court case. One could try to discount criticism of any judicial system by saying "there are more people in jail in the USA" -- that would be an invalid argument. Doesn't change the facts though -- out of every 100 defendants in a US courtroom, 11 are freed (89% conviction rate); whereas only *3* out of 10,000 are judged "not guilty" in Japan (99.97% rate).
The 99.97% conviction rate is a situation the international legal community and Japan Federation of Bar Associations alike see as unacceptable. I even have problems with including Ramseyer as the only source here, as he's definitly got a minority view, but his paper is widely-cited so it may be ok to have the reference. But having TWO different American citations is just too much here.
:Whether the conviction rate is unacceptable or not is not the issue. It is useful for the casual reader to compare conviction rates between nations. However, I defer to the mediator on this issue.Sparkzilla 06:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a comment from a Japanese culture scholar w/ absolutely no prior knowledge of the Nick Baker case, the 99.97% conviction rate (which I believe is a slightly dated statistic, and the rate is going down) reflects a different judicial process wherein immediate and full disclosure of all information is the best chance for any clemency.  If you're ever arrested by the J. police, your best bet is answering every question, even seemingly irrelevant ones completely and honestly. Personally, I suspect Baker is innocent, btw. - Naif 06:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison of USA conviction and arrest rates

message: Repeatedly referring to Mr Devlin's publication as "Metropolis, Japan's largest circulation English language free magazine, and Japan Today, an Internet news portal," is long and does seem to me to be something like advertising. People can check for details of the magazine elsewhere, or perhaps a Metropolis Magazine entry on Wikipedia would be a good idea? In any case this is not the place to promote the magazine.
Please don't refer to "discussion board posters" as evidence of opposition to Baker's supporters or campaign. Anonymous discussion forums and chat rooms and so on are not proper sources.
:Baker's supporters continue to remove information regarding the circulation and influence of Metropolis/Japan Today. By belittling the size of these publications they would like the casual reader to think that criticism of Baker was localised and small.
:Metropolis is the largest circulation English-language magazine in Japan. It is a 64-80 page city guide and classifieds magazine with features and commentary about life in Japan, and other issues, such as the Baker case. Metropolis is the only English-magazine in Japan with Audit Bureau of Circulation certification. Weekly circulation is 30,000 copies to 600 distribution locations in Tokyo, Yokohama and Chiba. The magazine alone reaches 67,500 readers every week, the majority of English-speaking foreigners in Tokyo. It should be noted that until Devlin wrote his piece critical of the campaign the supporters, including Iris Baker, were extremely happy to have had publicity in the magazine.
:In addition to the print magazine, the articles were republished on Metropolis's sister publication, Japan Today (now remaned Crisscross News Japan). Japan Today is the largest Internet news and information portal about Japan in English in the world, with 14 million page views each month and over two million unique users. The site currently has an Alexa.com ranking of 7200. Japan Today's main feature is its large-scale discussion system, which a large volume of discussion of the Baker case took place (No discussion of the guilt or innocence was allowed on the Baker support site). Over the period of the appeal trial the discussions that Baker's supporters characterise as "minor" had thousands of posts from hundreds of participants. By the end of the appeal, after it had been shown that Baker's support team had misled the public about the case, the large majority of comments were negative.
:Sparkzilla 04:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow amazing you had all that info at your fingertips! I still don't see why that means the circulation has to be presented in an article about Nick Baker? I would also remove anything that belittled or claimed the magazine was localised and small. Where does that appear in the article?219.113.209.102 05:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement of circulation is a matter of fact, not promotion. The defense of this item has been brought about by Baker's supporters claims that the publications are "minor" and "tiny" in edit comments and the removal of "largest circulation" information multiple times. This supports their attempt to paint criticism of the case as minor, when in fact it was widespread. I will not put it back in at this time, but the actual facts remain here for the benefit of mediators.Sparkzilla 06:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Metropolis & Japan Today circulations

message: To Sparkzilla: I guess your right about that point, I can see what you mean.David Lyons 14:54, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: I have taken out the other repeated information in the Reactions section simply to show how difficult it is to follow who has which position without it. I suggest they are reinstated to aid readability.
Sparkzilla 10:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Repetition of positions

message: "Devlin argued the support group had no supporting evidence for their claims that Prunier was a professional con man."
I can only find 3 articles where Devlin has commented publicly on the case - none of which includes the above quote. Can someone show the verifiable source for this? I propose to remove it within 7 days otherwise.David Lyons 02:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quote attibuted to Devlin