Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 4

message: From the template "Princess Sayako Kuroda of Japan marries a commoner and leaves the Imperial Family."  To me this entry seems odd. Members of the Imperial family in Japan have no surname and prior to the wedding the subject was addressed simply as "Princess Sayako".  However upon marrying a commoner she gained his surname "Kuroda" and simulaneously expelled from the Imperial family as well.  Thus "Princess Sayako" becomes "Sayako Kuroda" in one fell swoop.  At no point is she "Princess Sayako Kuroda".  Any suggestions on a new blurb?  Asteron  20:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Princess Sayako Kuroda 

message: The following section on the disengagement is no longer accurate:
:Israel begins its unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip.
Israel began the disengagement on the 15th, this is already the beginning of Day 4 of the disengagement see the headline at [www.haaretz.com]
A better sentence might be "The Israeli military continues forcibly evacuating Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip as part of the disengagement plan.
GabrielF 00:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Gabriel, that would be an appropriate change for you to make. Pedant 02:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disengagement blurb should be updated 

message: I wonder if we might want to encourage a style where the primary, bolded article is generally placed at the start of an entry.  I think this approach might make ITN a bit easier to scan at a glance.  Here's a comparison of the different approaches:
* In Norway, the Red-Green Coalition wins the 2005 parliamentary election, taking 87 of 169 seats in the Storting.
* Around 3000 petrol stations in the UK run dry after panic-buying caused by fuel protests.
* Israel completes its disengagement from the Gaza Strip.
* FEMA director Michael D. Brown resigns amid criticism of his handling of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in the United States.  He is replaced by R. David Paulison.
* Norgwegian parliamentary election: the Red-Green Coalition wins, taking 87 of 169 seats in the Storting.
* UK fuel protests fuel panic-buying, causing 3000 petrol stations to run dry.
* Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip is complete.
* Michael D. Brown, director of FEMA, resigns amid criticism of his handling of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in the United States.  He is replaced by R. David Paulison.
Of course, this shouldn't be a foolish rule when it could create an awkward wording, but simply a style guidline.  What's the general thought on this?--Pharos 23:07, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It would look quite different displayed on the Main Page, as there will almost always be at least one line of text vertically separating the starts of entries, even on large monitors.  Cut-and-paste and preview on the Main Page to see what I mean; do you still see the same aesthetic problem?  I think it looks more organized without appearing blocklike as it does displayed above.  Of course, it is not rare to have double the number of entries up as we have currently.--Pharos 23:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know what it looks like from messing around with DYK, and I do prefer them to be distributed through the text. Also what would happen in the case of two bolded terms like the current Katrina item?--nixie 23:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it makes sense for DYK to have a more conversational style (I mean it is, "Did you know..."), but with ITN I think it might make sense for a little more regularity.  What we have here I think is an extreme iceberg situation.  Wikipedia is a 100 story skyscaper full of people, and there's just a handful on the roof running the elevators.  Considering the page view statistics, we're surpassing almost every news website, but it's clear only a tiny percentage of readers ever edit at all or understand anything about Wikipedia.  When so very many people are coming here to read "headlines", I think ITN should just be as clear and simple at a glance as possible.  As for the situation of two bolded items, I would just recommend putting the more important first.--Pharos 00:12, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm dubious -- wary of the encroaching Powerpontification of written discourse as a general rule, and I'd be particularly ill disposed towards using fragments instead of full grammatical sentences (see Israel, above), but what the heck. Why don't we go live with it for 24 hours, see if our readers respond massively either in favour or against, revert to the old format tomorrow at this time and meet back here for further discussion? –Hajor 00:48, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style of entries 

message: There is no time refferent in this template, while news sometimes times stay for nearly a week (see Chirac's announcement concerning the Paris riots). Why not simply put a small (11/21)-like time-stamp at the beginning of each line, or possibly delimiting the news of each day between lines. It would be quite innocuous and would prevent the news from looking like an out of date "in the news today". Jules.LT 17:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time-stamps 

message: Angela Merkel will not lead a "jamaika coalition" (part of that coalition are the "black" party CDU, the green party and the liberal "yellow" party FDP; the article is in the point of the coalitions parts correct). The coalition of CDU and SPD called "great coalition", because CDU/CSU and SPD are the traditionel strongest parties in Germany.
:In English, a CDU/SPD coalition as in the 1960s is usually described as a "Grand Coalition". -- Arwel 16:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: German coalition

message: I removed the listing announcing the death of Rosa Parks because Wikipedia:In_the_news_section_on_the_Main_Page#Criteria for adding entries No 5 states "A death should only be placed on ITN if it meets one of two criteria: (1) the funeral ceremony merits its own article or (2) the death has a major impact on current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets Criteria 2."
For item (1), we only give the mention "As of yet, no funeral plans have been announced to the public." in the article. For item (2), there are no multiple articles. The "Death and Funeral", only three sentences long, does not even warrant a section.
Personally, I think this rule is ridiculous. People are going to be interested in the biography when someone dies, even though the death itself is not a major event. But a rule is a rule. --Jiang 04:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you about its being ridiculous, and now is as good a time as any to bring that fact to the community's attention. I propose that we be much more liberal with ITN items in general, including deaths and political scandals, in the interest of keeping the news fresh. — Dan | Talk 04:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

text: There are plenty of ITN-worthy items every day; it is just not often enough that articles are written on or updated about them.  Perhaps we should have a 'requested current event update' section to make this easier.  The point is to cover encyclopedic topics that are substantially changed by current events; it is not to post obituaries, like Parks or Lawlor, or political gossip, or sporting events.--Pharos 04:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

text: In the News... is not a newspaper, and it shouldn't try to be one.  Obituaries don't represent significant encyclopedic changes; they just point to an article about someone's life that, but for perhaps an added line, could have all been written two years ago.  Newspapers have 90%+ of their obituaries prewritten for prominent figures like Rosa Parks, but they're only released after death.  We already have 'published' accounts of people's lives as encyclopedia articles.  For the other matter, I think short articles are just an accurate representation of Wikipedia; as long as there is a reasonable-sized article about a major current world event, there's no reason it shouldn't be posted for the eyes of improving editors.  Certainly the Mehlis report on the assassination of Rafik Hariri is a very significant international development (not saying that after a few days it should even necessarily be up now, but this type of item in general is highly appropriate).--Pharos 06:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Yeah, agree. When famous people die and it's all over the global news, it merits listing here. And when it's a good article, even more so. Many people will want to read and learn more about her today, and we are the one site that really should be giving them that info. And the Main page is the obvious place to have a link to her bio. Though, I do hate the ugly "current" template people put in bios on recently deceased people, but that's a different debate, I guess. Shanes 06:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Then is there agreement to change the guidelines?--Jiang 20:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rosa Parks 

message: I think I'm coming around to the idea of bringing 'Recent deaths' back as a separate section.  While I think obituaries are a very different creature from real news, I can see the value in highlighting our many fine biography articles when their subjects (perhaps after a long absence) again enter the public consciousness.   Hopefully some of the proposals at Wikipedia:WikiProject Usability/Main Page will open up room for a new little box, where we can have a simple listing of names, rather than ITN-type blurbs.--Pharos 06:48, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not opposed to this proposal and think it's a good idea, but I don't see what is inherently wrong with listing obituaries in ITN. After all, aren't newspapers (and now online news sources) the ONLY places we find obituaries? Obituaries are news. --Jiang 05:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in favor of including death notices of prominent people, especially when it is such a good opportunity to show off a good article such as Rosa Parks.  Pedant 02:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent deaths back in separate section

message: The Iraqi constitution was actually rejected by a majority in three provinces, though only two had the requisite supermajority to "count". I think the news item should try to avoid suggesting otherwise. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 18:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraqi constitution 

message: Here's the item:
* A government report says one in ten priests in an Irish diocese sexually abused children, making it the world's worst Roman Catholic clerical sex abuse case.
This is really silly. Maybe there's an upcoming news story, but the whole point of putting something here in "In the News" is so that readers who want more information on the story can click straight through to it. If it isn't a news item yet, then WTF is the point? All the reader is going to get are the articles for:
* Irish government
* Ireland
* Diocese
* Child sex abuse and 
* Roman Catholic
I'm sure that these are all good articles, but the reader hoping for some breaking scandal is going to be disappointed! --ForestStag 23:23, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the links you provided link to anything to do with the story. I've reviewed Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal and that has some details - why not include a link to that? And while you are at it, perhaps you could do something about that vanity signature of yours? --ForestStag 23:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church child sex scandal 

message: Someone removed a large swath of older discussion from this page, apparently without archiving it, so I reverted.  I can't seem, though, to find any archives for this page.  What's up with this?--Pharos 09:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Try Template talk:In the news/archive. It was removed on 2005 August 7. I wonder why... -- PFHLai 01:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving this page 

message: Please remove the World Series story. Despite the word "WORLD" - it basically a domestic US sports story, of little international interest, and should be moved to current US sporting events  Jooler 06:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agreed. How about breaking news on the AIDS pandemic and the 2005 Kashmir earthquake? Both entries have been added as candidates. --Vsion 07:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Disagree  The World Series is a major sports championship, reported on news sites around the world.  Brandon39 08:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

text: What Brandon said.  Gamaliel 08:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I would add that Jooler removed the World Series from Current Events.  I restored it.  He/she then reverted it back off.  I am leaving the matter be, lest I violate the 3R rule, but I would like to seek consensus on this issue. I left a note on Jooler's talk page, but so far, no response. Brandon39 08:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's appropriate to go on Current Events, but it's really not of the international interest to go on ITN, which can only have a couple of items at a time.  I say we should have no sporting events until the Olympics, which really is of universal interest.  I'm going to replace the blurb with something else.--Pharos 08:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not even a sports fan and I find it hard to believe that the World Series is not of international interest.  Baseball is an immensely popular sport around the world, esp. in Latin America and Japan. Certainly this is of more international interest than learning that people in the UK can't smoke in public anymore. In any case, I've dumped the Bernanke item, which was getting stale anyway, and restored the series. Gamaliel 09:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, I don't doubt that the World Series is a "major sports championship", but there are much more important things to cover than sporting events, particularly those that are only ever involve two countries.  I'm not sure how important the UK somoking ban item is, especially since it won't be implemented for a few years, but I think that anything about fandom (of any kind, really) is by definition basically not of universal interest.--Pharos 09:30, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Most news outlets and most people would disagree with that assessment. Are there more important things to cover?  Certainly, and we're mentioning four of them.  Well, three of them since I think the smoking ban is pretty minor news. If there is enough important news today to crowd out the Series, fine, but I don't think we should chuck it out on principle.  We're talking maybe three or four things of this type of importance a year.  It's a major story regardless of how important we think it may or may not be. Gamaliel 09:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A sport that takes place in one country is not major news.  Yes, some people outside the US are interested, but not a massive amount.  The BBC aren't mentioning it aside from a small story on their site.  The smoking ban, on the other hand, will encourage more countries to follow suit and effects anyone that visits the country.  I won't get into an edit war about either two of these items, though, as it really isn't that important.  violet/riga (t) 11:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The sport may be popular in several countries - so is table tennis. But this is a domestic competition in all but name. Not of International interest. Unlike say the spread of avian flu or the death of 11 people at detention centre at Schiphol airport Jooler 12:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree. While this particular news doesnt interest me at all, I think the fact that they have won for the first time since 1917 makes it worthy of mentioning (POV: just like when the @#$% poms won back stole the Ashes) - especially since baseball is followed world wide. However, the fact that the US is perhaps the only English speaking, baseball playing country of notable size would make this more US-centric on the English Main Page. I don't know about Canada, but there is no mention of it on the baseball page. —deanos}{ Ł }{ 01:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: It was NOT reported on the front page of the BBC. There was a small link to the sporting section of the website. It was NOT a top story, unlike here. Jooler 22:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your second sentence contradicts your first: the link was (and still is) on the front page. In any case, we're splitting hairs. We carry very many stories relevant to only a single nation, e.g. the election of a new Thai prime minister, and there's no harm in having the World Series as well. Please do feel free to propose new items, including ones of interest to your own nation, at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates - it's always nice to rotate the news now and then. — Dan | Talk 22:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Jooler is correct.  The item was not reported on the main page (news.bbc.co.uk) but did have a small link on the sport page (news.bbc.co.uk/sport).  violet/riga (t) 23:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: IT was not a top story on the main page. On the World Edition (Violet was probably looking at the UK edition) there are 5 words "White Sox take World Series" and a link and that bit of the page is specifically reserved for stories about sport. This is far from it being a featured story as it is here. I already proposed two alternatives. Avian flu and the deaths as Schiphol airport neither of which relate specifically to MY country. You think the election of a head of government is a purely domestic subject? That would lead me to believe that you care little about the world outside of the US. The harm is that having predominantly stories about domestic US issues presents this encyclopaedia as skewed to an American point of view about what is and isn't important. The World Series is a domestic competition and is not widely viewed outside of the United States, however much they play the sport in Cuba or Japan. Since I wrote that we now have more news. I note we have nothing about the airstrike on the [Gaza Strip]]. Is the World Series (such a misnomer) more important? Jooler 23:27, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think INT does a good job of not being US dominated, and in fact I think this is an example of us skewing it too far in the other direction and trying to remove a perfectly suitable story for fear of "too much America".  Sure, the WS isn't the World Cup, but people in other countries do care. (Cuba and Japan and Canada aren't important enough?) I really doubt that people in Cuba would care more about the UK's smoking ban than the WS. Gamaliel 23:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Cuba and Japan and Canada would be important enough - if the story was in any way related to those countries, but we are talking about a domestic competition in the US. If we had a story about someone winning the national Chinese Table Tennis competition, would be put that on ITN just because people in the USA also play the game? Jooler 02:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Leave it that way. The World Series are an important sporting event in Latin America too, and also the Caribbean. With Ozzy Guillen being the manager of the Chicago White Sox, Venezuela is also interested. Titoxd(?!?) 03:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I think ITN is being US dominated. Please help to counter systemic bias. Election of a country's head of government capture more global interest than the "World" series, or the withdrawal of a nomination to be an associate justice of a country's supreme court. It's not like Liverpool F.C. winning the Champions League. Even in the US, the World Series is less popular than the Superbowl. People are not as crazy about it than say football (soccer) in Europe, or cricket in South Asian, which are like religions in these countries. Frankly, the wide US media coverage of the world series is partly due to the immense commercialization of the game, and the conglomeration of the entertainment, sports and news reporting industries in the US.  --Vsion 00:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me just point out here, conversely, that the vast majority of Americans would have no idea what it meant if they heard about "Liverpool F.C. winning the Champions League".  Why should we have any sporting events besides the Olympics at all, when they are all culturally limited and only of concern to fans anyway?  There is such a thing as real news.--Pharos 00:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: "The vast majority of Americans would have no idea what it meant if they heard about "Liverpool F.C. winning the Champions League" That perfectly displays the inherent bias - yes you are right Americans, unlike 95% of the rest of the world would have no idea. Conversely 95% of the world would have no idea who the White Sox are. The World Cup is more popular than the Olympics - FACT. So if you wanted to limit sport to one sport then that sport would be football (soccer to you). Jooler 01:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I think that ITN should be more International and there should not be more than one story about a particular country except for exceptional circumstances like an earthquake of terrorist act etc. Currently there are US stories that are both about domestic issues. Jooler 01:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, in case you didn't notice, Jooler, I was agreeing with you :)  I do, think, though, that the Olympics, whatever the television ratings may be, is more important as an international event; it's not just that many countries are participating, it's practically organized like an auxiliary meeting of the United Nations, if you know what I mean.--Pharos 01:16, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Forget TV ratings. Teams from 207 national football associations took part in the competition for the 2006 World Cup, compared to 202 countries for the 2004 Olympic Games. Jooler 02:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: You're certainly right about the general high quality of sports articles.  I also agree that ITN focuses too much on politics; some more science items, for example, I think would be a Good Thing.  If people really like sports on ITN, as they seem to, then I suppose that's alright, but just let's never overdo it.  I guess it would bother me less if the space was a bit bigger.--Pharos 02:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: If interested, please take a look at List of most watched sporting events in 2004 for a (not perfect, but) objective measure of which sports events are considered as significant. You may be surprised by some of the listed events ...  :-) --Vsion 04:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Baseball doesn't even get a mention. The FA Cup figure doesn't seem right though. I would expect a figure of around 9 odd Million for the UK alone. The 2005 final was watch by 13.7 million in Britain, but then it was Arsenal vs Man U, but the game is also shown live across the world (or at least it used to be) Perhaps Sky TC and Eurosport have the rights sewn up. Jooler 06:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: That list is bollocks - see my post on its talk page. sjorford #£@%&$?! 08:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: World Series

message: There is a mistake in the link Mahmoud Ahmadinejad#Call for the Destruction of Israel. The "D" in "Destruction" should be lowercase. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 22:43, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad#Call for the Destruction of Israel]] 

message: Hurricane Beta is not the first, but the second hurricane named after a letter of the Greek alphabet. Hurricane Alpha is the first. Aecis 20:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Alpha never became a hurricane; it was only a tropical storm.--Pharos 20:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hurricane Beta 

message: After User:Silsor removed the entry on ITN about "President George W. Bush nominates Samuel A. Alito, Jr to the United States Supreme Court"., we both got into a discussion about the  quote on Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page that says "It should be a story of an international importance, or at least interest."
My question: is there any sort of good way one can determine if a news story qualifies for that criteria so one can add it to ITN, or remove an entry if it does not fit? Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 18:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, I don't edit this template much, but it seems everytime I do, there's an argument here... Anyway, my rationale is I'm just following precident.  Bush's recent nominations of Myers and Bernacke (sp?) were on ITN, so no reason this shouldn't be as well. Gamaliel 19:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Those nominations shouldn't have been on ITN either. silsor 19:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Geesh, I didn't realize that countering the tendency to be US-centric meant no US news can go on the template.  I'm not German, but I would never dream of saying that the story currently listed about the Dresden church was "Not interesting to non-Germans; nil importance to non-Germans."  Gamaliel 19:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, because that wouldn't be true.  The firebombing of Dresden is a point of international interest and the rebuilding of the church is an important symbol related to that.  On the other hand, U.S. President George Bush nominated Samuel A. Alito, Jr. to replace Sandra Day O'Connor on the United States Supreme Court.  Let me say that again, just so we're on the same page.  U.S. President George Bush nominated Samuel A. Alito, Jr. to replace Sandra Day O'Connor on the United States Supreme Court.  The issue isn't that news happening in the US is going in the template, it's that the news has no relevance outside the US. silsor 19:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we should include all internationally featured stories on ITN.  After all, bandwidth is cheap.  What's the real reason? silsor 19:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: So far nobody has said why the nomination story affects people outside of the U.S.  Since we have guidelines that those news bulletins don't necessarily share, can you tell me why we should run the story on our front page? silsor 20:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm the one who added the Alito nomination to ITN, and I'm Australian. Cultural bias is one thing, but the conduct of the US Supreme Court has many international ramifications, and was prominently shown on the news here as well as in many countries. I understand that it may not be of interest to you, Silsor, but please do not speak for the rest of the civilised world. It's certainly of more interest here than the Dresden Frauenkirche, but I'm not arguing for that to be removed from here. Ambi 00:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That brings up a point I wanted to make.  Rdsmith4 said earlier on the IRC channel that "a SCOTUS nomination is of international interest in that the actions of the SCOTUS can have a great effect on world politics", which seems to be your position.  My response is that "world politics" is In-The-News-worthy, "effect on world politics" is borderline, "actions of the SCOTUS" is generally below our radar, and "SCOTUS nomination" is right out. silsor 04:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it should be removed, because the nomination event per se does not have "great effect on world politics", but more of a media hype. The Harriet Miers case already showed this. Her nomination was in ITN, then her withdrawal was in ITN (in fact, for several days), now the whole world have to forget about her, what's the point for all the attention? Most people in the US don't know who is Alito before his nomination. If the nomination is confirmed, then it is more worthy of ITN. What is encycleopedic is the polarization of American politics today, but the Samuel Alito article does not provide a backgrounder on the politics. If the democrats go filibuster on this nomination, then the filibuster event is ITN-worthy because it will be remembered for a long time, but right now it is too early.  It's more for Jay Leno, political-talk show kind of news. --Vsion 05:15, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're making value judgements. Whether it is or not media hype is not our problem. It is a major issue in the United States, and an important issue around the world; it's received quite a lot of attention here; why else would an Australian be checking Google News every few hours to see if there'd been any announcement? The polarisation of politics is a good topic for an article, but remember that this is a page about the news. Alito is the one in the news at this very moment, and this is why he belongs here. Ambi 05:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be right; I think the media (or politicians) pay too much attention to the Abortion rights debate and neglected other issues related to Teenage pregnancy, AIDS pandemic and the drug abuse problem, domestic or global. As a non-profit site, I hope wikipedia can do better and has a "higher" standard. --Vsion 07:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm suprised at the comment by jtdirl "The Dresden story received no coverage in most news bulletins I saw today" - it was the TOP story on the BBC ten o'clock news (on Sunday - the day it happened!) Jooler 07:58, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Entries here on ITN

message: OK, there's no article, and there can't be any article- because it's secret.  This can't be encyclopedic if we can't put anything more on it than what's in the blurb.--Pharos 21:50, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's link it to the Wikinews article instead. That's far more timely than something that was discovered in May. Karmafist 22:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an encyclopedia, not a news site. If there is nothing encyclopaedic about the new development, then it doesn't belong on ITN. Wikipedia is not Wikinews. --Golbez 22:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed - ITN is for articles that have recently been updated as the result of a current event.  violet/riga (t) 22:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Very well, then. I'll link it to this, and modify the entry accordingly to include Reid. Karmafist 23:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually there's an article now about Closed Sessions of the United States Senate in general -- a list, anyway, of the 54 times (counting this one) that it has been done.  I was interested, I found it, now there's a page.  So you can link to that.   Oh, an alias for it is Closed Senate Session List  Readparse 23:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closed U.S. Senate session 

message: Is 6 consecutive days of immense rioting in Paris, France, not worth mention on the main page? Too controversial? Shall we remain occupied with the newly found lumps of rock orbitting the "planet" Pluto? -- Zeno of Elea 05:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not an international event. Wow, some kids torched some cars in Paris. If people are going to bitch about the US Supreme Court being on there, why should a little riot in Europe be? --Golbez 07:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You reckon if there were 6 days of rioting in LA it wouldn't be on the front page!?!? Jooler 23:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It might, and then Euros would be complaining about a US bias. I'm just trying to supply some equal time. --Golbez 04:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "It might" my arse. Of course it would - no question and quite rightly as it would be an event worthy of being there. You're trying to have a go back at us for complaining of Americo-centrism and flagrantly displaying your contempt by claiming that news from Europe ("some kids ... a little riot in Europe" [which has continued for a 7th 8th 9th10th night BTW]) isn't as important. The arrogance is distateful. Jooler 07:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Hey, if euros can complain about pro-US bias, I figured I'd throw it right back. Call it devil's advocate - I'm just annoyed at the hand wringing about US bias here. --Golbez 19:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[2005 Paris riots]] 

message: Should I link to Crown copyright under that picture of Mr. Blunkett?  --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 15:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought about that, but I'd be very surprised if the terms say "...and you must link to a Wikipedia article giving the meaning of Crown Copyright...", and it'd be nice if the copyright notice was as unobtrusive as possible. I wonder if we should, however, be acknowledging the Home Office as the source? -Splashtalk 15:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That might be a good idea, if that's what needs to be done.  Being a Yank, I myself don't know much about copyright in the UK.  --Merovingian (t) (c) (e) 15:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Crown Copyright" notice is obstrusive and improper. Other copyright thumbnails on the front page (news events etc) are not given the same treatment. Put a notice in the image itself, if its that important --this lookes more like unnecessary 'royal treatment.' -St|eve 02:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggested that on Talk:Main Page, since the picture already has the relevant tag. Whoever it was thought that this was insufficient. IANAL, and to err is safe. -Splashtalk 02:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Talk:MP wasnt the right place - this is. It has never been policy to include such tags in an ITN thumb. Why now? -St|eve 02:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, for goodness sake. Remove it if you like. Leave the royal bashing and policy thrashing alone. -Splashtalk 02:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, for goodness sake. Ive asked someone to restore my ops so I can do just that. ') -St|eve 03:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, for goodness sake. I thought you had +sysop back while the arbcom untangled themselves. I'm sorry. -Splashtalk 03:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  That might have been a pun on words by SV.  'Royal treatment' can simply mean 'extra attention'. --64.229.220.87 07:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I can't find one, no. I personally thought that the image page was enough, but at Talk:Main Page#David Blunkett photo someone was sounding quite sure otherwise. I have no objection whatever to it being removed, so long as we are sure that doens't violate the requirements of Crown Copyright. (Which would supersede any internal wikipedia policy if they make this kind of demand.) -Splashtalk 03:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it's better to move it to the ALT. --64.229.220.87 07:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crown copyright 

message: The relevant article hasn't been updated, so why is this item in the news? It seems like I'm always coming across these bolded 'in the news' articles which have little or no mention of the topic.  How about people update the article first, and THEN suggest it / add it to the news? --Brendanfox 06:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's bold Edmund Stoiber and Franz Müntefering instead. These pages are updated. --64.229.220.87 07:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  German [[grand coalition]] 

message: I think the Paris riots picture is pretty lousy, but I've added  to it. We might think about removing it, or finding a free version provided by a french Wikipedian. (I protected it, too.)-Splashtalk 17:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What's going on? It is a copyvio, it isn't a copyvio, someone removes, the same person replaces it... -Splashtalk 17:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I did put the notice on the picture, check the history. Rama reverted it. -Splashtalk 17:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, I too got caught in the wikislow, and had no means of realising from the protection screen that it had been reverted. -Splashtalk 18:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Then can we move it to the top of the page, so that the '+' button works? -Splashtalk 18:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Paris riots pic

message: This article needs a lot of work within less than a day. Bush is arriving in Argentina late tonight, and the protests are going to get pretty ugly. This topic will be a top headline for the next few days, though this article is a sub as of now.  172 | Talk 00:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mar del Plata Summit of the Americas]]

message: Why is Congresses' close session still on there? Really, we should have the tornado , parlimentary elections, Paris suburb riots, Gene Robinson and maybe something else. Thanks. Falphin 18:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Update please

message: Please add a mention of the event and article Parti Québécois leadership election, 2005. THIS is the event that took place, so it should be mentioned, and also, that article is much more informative on what actually happened. If possible, it would also be useful to specify the nature of the party, which is "the main sovereigntist and social democratic party in Quebec". I suggest this:
*André Boisclair wins the 2005 leadership election of the Parti Québécois, the main sovereigntist and social democratic party in Quebec. He becomes the first openly gay politician to lead a major political party in North America.
Thanks. --Liberlogos 23:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Parti Québécois leadership election, 2005|André Boisclair elected]] 

message: Re the French riots: "return to normalcy" is a phrase from the 1920 U.S. presidential election.  I think "return to normality" would sound less American.  Unless it really is quoting a French policeman in English??  Joestynes 17:41, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Return to Normalcy 

message: Tom DeLay is not a former Speaker of the House, but a former House Majority Leader. --New Progressive 03:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Evil Monkey - Hello 03:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Tom DeLay

message: Please change Kadima to Ahrayut Leumit. 10x, Eranb 07:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia policy is to stick with English translations of party names unless the native one enters common English parlance (ie, Sinn Fein, Likud).  As such, I've changed it to National Responsibility, which is the dominant form in English-language media both inside and outside Israel. The Tom 19:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kadima -> Ahrayut Leumit 

message: Could somebody please trim that entry please? Its a bit excessive and wordy. -Psyche|logy 16:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Now, it doesn't mention directly which country Paul Martin is Prime Minister of. I suggest to insert "Canadian" before "Prime Minister" to remove the apparent ambiguity. — Kimchi.sg | Talk 00:41, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada no confidence 

message: Surely the death of George Best should be on here. He was on here when he was close to death a few weeks ago. Jooler 18:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Normally we don't put deaths on, but as Best was one of the world's most prominent sportsmen (described by Pele as the greatest footballer in the world) he qualifies. I've put him in and cut back on the woefully written Canadian piece. FearÉIREANN 22:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Our rules state that it does not.  The funeral ceremony does not yet merit its own article nor does his death have a major impact on current events.  Yes, he was a legend, but the rules are there for a reason - if you wish to dispute them (as others have said they would like to) please discuss it in the appropriate place.  violet/riga (t) 22:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: It doesn't have a major impact on current events - it's a major news story, but it doesn't have a major impact.  Best does not qualify and you are once again showing yourself to be pushing anything Irish.  violet/riga (t) 22:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: This obituary does not have a major impact on current events, and plainly does not meet our established criteria. The prominence of his obituaries in the British and Irish media is not relevant.--Pharos 23:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: As a long term Manchester United supporter he is pretty much a hero of mine, so don't start that.  Your constant defence of anything Irish is the thing that is frustrating - I can remain impartial about any such things, but hate to see people that are blinkered by such simple things as location.  violet/riga (t) 23:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So the death of former world leaders does not qualify for In the news but the death of an ex-football star does?Homey 23:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: JFK and John Paul II were in office when they died so your comparison does not stand. Personally, I think the death of former notable heads of state/heads of government should be ITNworthy but if they aren't then neither should Best. Homey 04:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a disgrace. I bet if Muhammad Ali died  he would be on the front page? And I myself would be arguing for him to be on the front page. Jooler 10:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: George Best

message: An election is not requested. The procedure is 
# the PM choses either to resign or seek a parliamentary dissolution;
# the Governor General decides whether or not to grant one;
# if granted, the dissolution triggers off the election. (A dissolution means all MPs lose their seats, causing an election to fill the now-vacant seats. We need to be careful about constitutional procedure and cover it accurately. We know what he is doing about 1. 2 and 3 won't be known for certain, though we know what is likely (but not certain to happen) until tomorrow, so we cannot say that an election will happen until the Governor General formally dissolves parliament. FearÉIREANN 03:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Canada

message: For the November 2005 discussion related to the opposed request to rename this page see /name.  violet/riga (t) 00:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for move 

message: Right now, Shimon Peres has not left the Labout party, is not in Government and will remain as such till the next election, changing only if Sharons new party are in Power and labour are not.  Not much of a story really, save that Peres is hedging his bets.  Re-word or get rid of it from the main page.--Irishpunktom\talk 15:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  INcorrect 

message: What on earth is this doing here?  This is not news.  Morwen - Talk 09:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Very much agreed. Absolutely preposterous. How does anyone expect Wikipedia to be taken seriously when its members pull stunts like this and no one bats an eyelash? - 210.49.214.102 10:05, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm a committed Firefoxian (yes, I am pretty sure that's a word!), and I'd have to say I agree that ITN shouldn't include Firefox release news, nor IE release news, nor pretty much any software release (except maybe when Microsoft release the next version of Windows) because there are far more important things to report. --Sanguinus 14:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll fess up to adding that one.  Someone else had stuck it on the candidates page, it was a slow news day, and I felt like I needed to water down the amount of Canada content that I'd also added of late.  I certainly think milestone releases of heavily-utilized software are ITN-worthy—Windows, MacOS, Office, IE, and Firefox would make my list (Linux would, too, though by its nature it doesn't really have milestone moments)—and should be added contingent of course on where they stand relative to what else is going on in the world.  In retrospect, 1.5 probably doesn't measure up, but 1.0 deserved to be on there (I think it was, actually), as would the release of Service Pack 2. The Tom 20:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Firefox 

message: The caption for the ITN picture needs updating, since it's claiming Saddam Hussein is the epicenter of an African earthquake. --Sanguinus 20:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. -Splashtalk 20:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caption update needed 

message: Might want to add that Unnur Birna Vilhjálmsdóttir just got crowned Miss World. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 16:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miss World 

message: I think he deserves a little front page action today... Tfine80 21:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Richard Pryor]] 

message: Just how internationally important is this?  It's not very prominent on the international version of the BBC website.--Pharos 07:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Er.. that's not correct. On the international site it shares the 2nd spot with a story about people gatheringfor WTO protests. And by the way it was an absolutely massive explosion. Additionally as the site is the main supply depot to Heathrow Airport, Gatwick Airport, Luton Airport and others, it is likely to cause disruption to international flights. Jooler 10:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they've moved it up since I first checked (it was one of those little headlines under 'Europe' before).  I'm not disputing its importance exactly, just putting out feelers as the extent of the effects from the explosion haven't been clear.--Pharos 10:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The smoke from the fire has now created an enormous cloud that on satellite photographs can clearly be seen to be covering a very wide area. Jooler 11:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The Chief Fire Officer dealing with the explosions says it's the "largest incident of its type in peacetime Europe" - in this case, definately merits ITN coverage. --Sanguinus 15:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this story should stay in ITN, but the reference needs to be changed "A fire breaks out after a series of explosions" is too present tense, and really now the issue is the ongoing effects of the fire i.e. the enormous cloud of smoke and the closure of the M1. Jooler 22:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I also wondered whether this story was sufficiently internationally important, but I have now heard fire chiefs on the scene describing it as the 'largest fire in Europe since the Second World War', which is probably significant enough. But judging from their visibility from space, I imagine some of the Gulf War oil field fires and the Indonesian forest fires would have been larger. -- Solipsist 09:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fuel depot explosions 

message: I can't find any updated material regarding the extension of the provisions of the Kyoto Protocol to 2012 at the Conference on the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change page, not on the United Nations Climate Change Conference page, not on the Kyoto Protocol page, and not on Current events. So I removed the blurb for violating Criteria #1 and #4 as detailed on Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page. Please re-post on ITN after updating the relevant pages. Thank you. -- PFHLai 21:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blurb on Climate Change Conference removed 

message: Hi Admins, I created the following Image for the Main Page. Maybe you'd like to use it instead of the Lebanon-Flag. --Xerxes2k 21:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: * Perhaps the word "ANTI-LEBANON" should be removed from this map. -- PFHLai 07:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: **I've removed that unfortunately named mountain range. Dmn 10:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image for Lebanon 

message: "Racially-motivated" should simply be "Racially motivated". Omphaloscope » talk 07:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  typo 

message: Please change the current image to Image:Ahmadinezhad.jpg, to fit with the news story. - Kookykman|(t)e
: It appears that it's a copyright violation... Ral315 (talk) 02:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: I personally think wording it this way is very non-NPOV. Mustaqbal 04:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahmadinejad "Denies" 

message: The 900 protestors are "detained", not arrested. So far only ~10 people have been arrested.  --Lorenzarius 16:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On a similar vein, I take issue with the spelling of "protestors" in the phrasing.  I believe it may go either/or on this, but "protesters" might read better.  That or change altogether to use "demonstrators".  SchuminWeb (Talk) 22:19, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in the Hong Kong WTO news 

message: Which President George Bush? Linking to a disambiguation page on the front page is not a good idea, no? --Lorenzarius 16:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification needed for the George Bush/NSA news 

message: Especially after the Seigenthaler scandal I'm quite upset to see that efforts have not been made to ensure accuracy, especially on the main page. The top news story now reads, "Evo Morales claims victory in the Bolivian presidential election, becoming the latest leftist South American leader." However, it is not yet certain that he is 'becoming' Bolivia's leader. The ballots have not yet been counted. The results are only unofficial. Further, Congress may still decide the outcome.  Whoever posted the claim should actually bother to read a serious news article explaining what's going on in the country. 172 21:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, all it (and you) said is that he "claims victory."  As in he himself indicates he is likely to be the victor.  Not that he will be the victor.  Simple but important distinction, no? -The Tom 15:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but the way it was worded implied that simply by claiming victory he became leader... Shimgray | talk | 17:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccurate material on the main page

message: This news item is far too long, it's bigger than any of the others for a story of purely US interest, can we find a way to shorten it? Ddye 17:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Intelligent Design

message: I've restored this item; it's having a pretty serious economic impact and an article on a major labor action brings some diversity to the items.--Pharos 22:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Pharos. This is not only about inconvenience. It has huge economic, labor, health impacts, etc. It is freezing outside. It is being reported in every paper in the world. Here is over 400 stories in German for example.  200 in French.  It is the top story on the BBC's Americas listing--above Bolivia!  Tfine80 23:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what you've been watching JT, but BBC TV news bulletins have been full of it today. Mark1 23:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  It's not just about "cold Americans". New York is an international city, a center of global finance, and the health impacts are no joke. Tfine80 23:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Again - so what? How is the inconvenience to occupants of one city a major international story? Please do not imagine that the entire planet cares about the New York transport system. Big issue for New York - yes. Issue for the US - maybe. Issue for the planet - no. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The intelligent design story has implications beyond the US? I'm confused why you're removing the New York article but - repeatedly - not the intelligent design one. Which one is costing $400 million a day? Three guesses. --Golbez 23:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I would be willing to compromise and remove the intelligent design one and include the strike. If the physical impacts are not huge outside of the US, why is the world so interested then? Why are there international media all over the place here? Why is this being printed in every newspaper in the world? Why are financial markets around the world talking about this? Also, isn't an exceptionally major story in a major country sufficient? What is the threshold for analyzing international impact? Tfine80 23:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The "international impact" argument is tiresome.  It is a major event, regardless of "international impact".  --tomf688{talk} 00:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The strike's over, but I still feel the need to comment here. The stike did make an international impact, whether it is realized or not. It occurred in the middle of the holiday shopping season. I heard reports that it cost hundreds of millions of dollars a day. That's money that would have gone to huge trananational corporations with establishments in many countries. Further, you could argue that the story is of international importance because of its relationship to the international labor movement. Theshibboleth 19:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NYC transit strike 

message: The way the story about the Chad-Sudan war is written on the main page makes it unclear whether it was Chadians or Sudanese who killed 100, and whether it was Chadians, Sudanese, or both that were killed. Theshibboleth 19:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally the bolded link should goto Chadian-Sudanese War, rather than simply Sudan. --Brendanfox 21:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Chad-Sudan war

message: IANAL, but I am not convinced this is any sort of significant milestone or binding precednet.  The recent Kitzmiller Intelligent Design case generated a torrent of news, but I can't find any significant media coverage of this case. Google News turns up some minor regional coverage and right-wing and religious websites crowing about their "victory", but nothing from NYTimes, Washington Post, CNN, etc. I'm going to remove it. Gamaliel 04:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ACLU vs. Mercer County