Talk:Armenia/Archive 2

message: My suggestion is by no means "racist", but just an attempt to make a compromise. Here are some points:
#You said that "this texts keeps it consistent with the armenians arcile". However, the Armenians page says that Armenians originated in the Middle East. Please do not play with words.
#Also, if you want to prove that Armenia is in the Middle East, please cite reliable sources. If you ask me, Armenia is in the Caucasus.
#What do you mean the citation Eupator added is "fictional"?
—Khoikhoi 07:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Calgvla 

message: A guideline on whether or not to italicize Armenian (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian in Wikipedia 

message: It has been three days so I am unprotecting this article.  Please discuss any disputed changes here before making them.  If edit warring continues, I will block the involved parties. --Aguerriero (talk) 17:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotecting 

message: Nixer has brought up several times that "Indo-European" is not any measure of European-ness. Specifically: "Tajiks and Indians as well as Iranians and Afghanians also speak Indo-European language. What does matter really is that Armenian language does not belong to European linguistic unity (which is determined by Greek and Latin borrowings)...."
Greco-Latin borrowings is a poor means of language characterization. It might be a good approximation for describing the Romance languages and borrowings into the contemporary Germanic (English in particular), but it breaks down as soon as you move further afield. For example, Latvian and Lithuanian are thousands of years old--parts of Latvian resemble, and decline remarkably like, Latin, but are not borrowed from Latin in any way shape or form. Still other words have barely changed from Sanskrit in 5,000 years. Yet still European. Chaucer is still readable by those knowing contemporary English, yet Beowulf, which is as far from Chaucer's time as he is from ours, is pretty much unintelligible. Yet still European.
So the question is, how to get from a "branch" of "Indo-European" to "European?" Is there some commonality of roots?
Regarding the ones Nixer mentions:
* Iranian branch -- descended from ancient Persian, includes Farsi (aka Iranian, Dari, Persian) ["Iranians"], Kurdish, Pashtu ["Afghanis"], Tadzhik (close relative to Farsi) ["Tajiks"].
* Indic branch -- derived from Sanskrit, mainly northern India ["Indians"], includes Hindi, Bengali, Punjabi, and Romany (the language of the Gypsies).
I think we can be agreed these branches are not European. They did not originate in European territory and neither they nor their ancestors have been spoken there by peoples who would be counted as among the indigenous population. (The ultra-nomadic Romany is rather a special and unique case; fortunately, not having to be discussed here.)
Let's look at the ones we can (likely) agree are European:
* Celtic branch -- originated in central Europe, remained in Europe: Welsh, Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and others
* Germanic branch -- English, Dutch, German, Flemish, Icelandic, and others
* Latin branch (aka Romance languages) -- Italian, Portuguese, French, Romanian, and others
* Slavic branch -- Bulgarian, Russian, Polish, Czech, Slovene, Macedonian, Bosnian, Ukranian, and others
* Baltic branch -- Latvian and Lithuanian, Prussian is extinct
* Hellenic branch -- modern Greek, all others extinct
* Illyric branch -- Albanian, all others extinct
Then there are a couple of extinct branches:
* Anatolian branch -- extinct (Hittite et al.)
* Tokharian branch -- extinct (northwest China)
And so, we are left with one remaining branch—I'm sure we all know by now which one that is:
* Thracian Branch -- modern Armenian
There are also three extinct languages in that branch: Dacian (Dacia), Thracian (Thrace), and Phrygian (ancient Troy). We have related languages of the same branch, Dacian and Thracian, of ancient kingdoms of the Balkans. We have also the Armens, of the Balkans, from whence they expanded/migrated to the "Armenian highlands", assimilating the indigenous peoples, the Hayasa. Armenian, the language of the Armen, is an ancient Palaeo-Balkan (i.e., east central European) language, survived to the present day, infused with Farsi as the result of historical entanglements mentioned elsewhere--and not as the result of some common Middle Eastern heritage as has been alleged. As we all know, language is culture. The Armenians are of Europe: "The Armenian culture is rooted in ancient Europe." Not Persia/Asia/Middle East/et al. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian language and culture 

message: Armenia's GDP grew by 12.5% in the first nine months of 2006, which translates into $4 billion.  Here's the link to the article, I hope someone with better math skills then I, can play with the numbers and come up with a proper GDP per capita, which the article doesn't provide.  http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg166419.html
--Moosh88 02:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Using a population of 32,192,000, which I pulled from the National Statistical Service of Armenia at National Statistical Service of Armenia (http://docs.armstat.am/nsdp/) on 24 October, 2006; 4,000,000,000/32,192,000 = $124 per person.  I'm not too happy with that number, though, because the 4 billion is very vague.  Does this help? --Badger151 04:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GDP 

message: Having read through the discussion regarding Armenia's status in regard to Europe, and having poked around and looked at a few other sources, may I suggest replacing paragraph two of the present article with the following:
"Armenia has a long, rich cultural history, reaching back to the founding of the Armenian nation c2500BC.  Armenia’s location near the Ural Mountains has enabled the nation to influence and be influenced by both European and Asian cultures.  Assigning Armenia to either Asia or Europe thus becomes difficult, for although present cartography places Armenia in Asia, adjacent to Europe, the historical variation of the Asia:Europe border, coupled with Armenia’s cultural, economic, and political ties to nations on both sides of that border, present strong arguments for the nation’s membership in either or both continents.  As a result of this, the geographic classification of the country varies according to different sources. Also as a result, Armenia is sometimes seen as a transcontinental nation."
Please comment --Badger151 03:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Long, complicated, ambiguous and most importanlty, unnecessary.--Eupator 03:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it is a fair proposal and I support it. lets take a vote!--Caligvla 03:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: That's the most striking absurdity. However, removal or the change of that sentence would not change my vote. To begin with you haven't even explained why we should even consider a revision in the first place.--Eupator 23:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A modest proposal 

message: #Support --Caligvla 03:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support Badger's Modest Proposal

message: #Very Strong Oppose --Eupator 16:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose Badger's Modest Proposal

message: Close is a relative term.  What if Ural Mountains was changed to Europe:Asia border?  This seems to be the most common objection. --Badger151 23:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the most striking absurdity. However, removal or the change of that sentence would not change my vote. To begin with you haven't even explained why we should even consider a revision in the first place.--Eupator 23:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: So, edit it

message: :Comment-A:Hamparzoum and Craig don't count as they are suspected sockpuppets of caligvla. ExplorerCDT doesn't count either as he arrived here as a result of canvassing by caligvla. B:Voting doesn't matter. This is not a democracy, unless you reach a consensus (with me included) this is useless and that is not going to happen obviously.--Eupator 16:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You canvas far more people than I ever could, and your sockpuppet claim is not only weak but a complete lie--Caligvla 17:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, two users who have just joined only to support your bs and do nothign else. Sounds very convincing. Understand that when checkuser is complete your ban will not be temporary. And where have I canvassed more than you? You sent a message to like two dozen users. --Eupator 17:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: -My vote better count. I was asked to look into the debate, I wanted to contribute to it, but didn't get around to it (time, illness prevented me), just because you disagree with my vote doesn't mean it is discounted. If the vote is 25 to 10, the concensus will be to the 25, even if you're part of the 10.  So, get over yourself Eupator. Canvassing is needed to make people aware there is a vote (notice he didn't try to sway me), if I disagreed with the proposal I would have voted to oppose, but I support it. Would you consider AfD and Requested moves canvassing? Canvassing isn't against policy. But then again, I wasn't canvassed, I simply asked Caligvla for the link. —ExplorerCDT 17:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even AFD's are not decided via democracy, consensus is not determined by votes. Not that it would come to that.--Eupator 17:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, ExplorerCDT, canvassing of any form is prohibited in WP by policy. See WP:SPAM#Canvassing. I will place the relative template above for your reference. •NikoSilver• 18:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: I think it would be advisable to get an administrator to check all voters here, to see if they are are using an open proxy IP. Such votes should be discounted (of course they would be anyway as that username would not have enough edits to vote).--Tekleni 09:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure, that Caligvla is using open proxies.  was an IP used by banned  to edit Khoikhoi's talkpage, and then lo and behold, it turns up here and revert wars. Considering that all (of the vast majority) of Bonaparte's anon edits to Wikipedia are through open proxies (in fact, he was banned for open proxy sockpuppetry), then it is extremely likely that this is what is happening. If my suspicions are confirmed, then this will have interesting implications for Caligvla. I think we should ask an admin with the technical access to verify this thesis.--Tekleni 09:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppetry 

message: As promised if the tied had not turned by the end of Thursday, I would end the RfC and go on to mediation...
Feel free to archive...--Caligvla 15:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC Over