Talk:Punt (Australian football)

message: I think it needs to be defined whether this article is for Rugby league punts only or for other codes of football as well. There is already an article for American football, perhaps other sports as well. I don't think union uses the term 'punt' much.GordyB 13:40, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The picture with this page is of a drop punt kick which is different from the article's topic the punt kick. The page does link to a drop punt kick page, which lacks a picture. This picture should be moved there and an actual punt kick photo replacing it. I could in theory provide one, but I only watch the NFL which would surely sue my pants off for illegal communistic reportage sans their permission. I could probably get a fair use photo of local high school player making a punt kick, but I don't generally attend high school games.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.130.22 (talk) 13:39, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Also 

message: Following a long but poorly attended discussion at Talk: Punt (football) I boldly merged the punt articles. Up and under wasn't included, but probably should be merged here too. AIRcorn (talk) 06:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: The following was inserted into the article by user:144.132.100.183
"DYER SEES RED"
JACK DYER is a deadly kick from 40-50 yards out of goal. He uses the stab-punt kick, dropping the ball point down and almost vertical, kicking it with the toe of his boot.
"Dick" Lee, famous Col- lingwood forward, used the same type of kick. Dyer says he saw the value of the kick watching Collingwood, and learnt it from the Collier brothers. Extract from "Dyer Sees Red". 
In the above article there is a picture of Jack Dyer's Head/Face. How more actual can it get. And the date of the article is Wednesday 31 March 1948.  
In the above extract Dyer himself is admitting Dick Lee used the same type of kick. How can he be credited with something he admits himself someone else did around 30 years before him. You will have of course noted Jack Dyer uses the term "Stab Punt" Kick (See "The First Drop Punt? Recent research from a kick historian"for more on "Stab Punt"as published in The Almanac of June 26, 2015) which he stopped using from the entry in The Sporting Globe Football Book of 1948 Compiled & Edited by Hec de Lacy in which Hec de Lacy promoted Jack Dyer and his drop punt. 
Hugh Hinks invented the Drop Punt in 1907. Page 342 & 347 ì In The Beginning There Was Carisbrookî by Daryl McLeish, 2001.
 		
Despite claims to the contrary Carlton believed  that Horrie Clover invented the drop punt. Teammate Newton Chandler believed that Clover first saw the kick used by a teammate at Carisbrook and that he perfected it from there. 6th Edition The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers.
 		
Len Metherell, who made his debut in 1930, see 6th Edition The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers, certainly used the drop punt, and indicated that he had learned it from his father. With the retirement of Dyer in 1949 the drop punt gradually fell into disuse. When Bartle, of Geelong, took a spectacular mark five meters from goal in 1958 and kicked a behind, the Geelong advertiser admonishes: he foolishly tried a drop punt. 3AW Book of Footy Records 1989 page195/6 
The Drop-punt Pass
LEN METHERELL does a kick that is all his own, and I fancy he and his brother are the only exponents of it. The kick is used for passing, and is a punt. The ball is dropped on to the toe and travels through the air like a drop-kick. The astonishing thing about this kick is that Metherell is so accur-ate with it.
Len Metherell. In addition to his renowned toughness, he was strong overhead, and was one of the first regular exponents of the drop punt (the kick which Jack Dyer is often amusingy purported to have 'invented') to play VFL football.
Extract from AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL Author - John Devaney
 		
Interestingly Jack Dyer commenced with Richmond in 1931 and would have played against Clover and Metherell. 
 		
Next recorded  use was by the Collier Brothers see Page 195 3AW Book of Footy Records. 
 		
Next recorded use was by Jack Dyer. The Sporting Globe FOOTBALL Book 1948.
 		
Page 49: Jack Dyer gets goals with the sillies looking kick in football history.
 		
Jack Dyer adapted the Collier Brothers of Collingwood’s Drop Punt, which they used as a short pass of around ten yards in place of a hand pass. They only used it to pass the ball to each other over the head of an opponent. See page 165, Jack Dyer Captain Blood as told to Brian Hanson, Paul, (London), 1965.   
The Next was George Goninon
GEORG REALLY DID IT By JACK CANNON
Saturday was George Goninon's big day. He became leading goalkicker for the season,and by kicking 11 goals equaled the record for the highest number of goals kicked in a final game. George has now kicked 82 goals for the year, although he missed the first three games. In the first quarter he rarely touched the ball.In the second term he got two goals, in the third he brought his total to five to be on the top of the goalkicking list. But in the last term he could not go wrong. He marked well, led out beautifully, and kicked six more goals with his peculiar, spinning "drop punt." On the day George had 15 shots. He kicked 11 goals, three behinds, and one out of bounds.
Give Goninon the drop on the goal and it's all over. He's an ace shooter with his peculiar  
stab-kick-punt similar to that used by Dick Lee, famous Collingwood forward. Extract from “Glamor Boy”  of May 10 1952, by H.A. de Lacy 
Stab Punt Jim Johnson finds it very interesting to read in the article “Glamor Boy”  of May 10 1952, by H.A. de Lacy publisher of The Sporting Globe FOOTBALL BOOK 1948,  that George Goninon's kick is referred to as a  "stab kick punt"  similar to that used by  Dick Lee of Collingwood. 
Comment!Once again STAB kick PUNT is used.                                                     
DICK Lee & his  “A TYPE OF STAB PUNT” Note Stab Punt?  
MY RECENT RESEARCH has revealed that one of the most famous full forwards of all time, Dick Lee of Collingwood, kicked a drop punt for goal. Dick called his kick for goal  “a type of stab-punt.”  He is the first VFL/AFL  player recorded  as kicking The Drop Punt.
“He developed both the place-kick and “A TYPE OF STAB-PUNT” in which he dropped the ball point-first and stabbed it like a shot arrow with hair-line accuracy. He says he always picked a spot in the crowd and took aim at it. Kicking he says is a lost art.” From Trove. Dick! Dick!-Dick-e-e-e  by H.A. de Lacy Sporting Globe Saturday 21 June 1941.                        
The above extract is from "The First Drop Punt Recent research from a kick historian"as published in The Almanac of June 26, 2015.                      
H.A. de Lacy Chief football writer on The Sporting Globe. Forthright and controversial, his style sometimes resulted in him being banned by clubs, but that did not deter him and he became one of the most widely read journalists from the 1940s. Hector De Lacy. Inducted 1996 into The AFL Hall of Fame.              
 		
Interesting note. 
 		
The drop punt had a slow take-up by teams: Dyer himself attributed this to 
 		
Coaches do no teach this kick to their players for one reason. They cannot do it and have never bothered to learn its fundamentals Football Clinic, p.167 Captain Blood, Jack Dyer. As told to Brian Hansen, Paul, (London), 1965.
 	
I cannot find any information that records that Jack Dyer actually was the first. 
I have reworded the article slightly to reflect this, but when you are talking about things that happened 70-100 years ago, we'll never get a definitive answer. 
With Time in researching I, Jim Johnson, have found several media  mentions of Dick Lee  kicking like Jack Dyer or visa versa and one record very recently re a 1921 Trove entry "One of the best things done this quarter was Lee's drop stab of goodly distance to C._Rankin (a goal, too). Lee kicked the leather into such a position ahead of Rankin that nobody but Rankin had a chance of getting at it" I think I may have again been the first to find this?
Jim Johnson Author of "The First Drop Punt? Recent research from a kick historian". finds the above entry very interesting. Time and knowing what I am looking for gets me there. It helps to have actually (Not been credited for) invented my disposals. In reading "The First Drop Punt? Recent research from a kick historian" you will find a mention of Dyer Sees Red and much more Actual information.
???"With Dyer Sees Red" as told to JIM BLAKE. Sporting Globe Wednesday 31 March 1948. You cannot get a more  definite  answer. It's what Dyer said to Jim Blake in Dyers Sees Red on Trove. ?? Is trove a reliable source or have I wasted hundreds of hours.  
In Dyer Sees Red there is a picture of Jack Dyer's Head/Face and Dyer says he uses the "STAB PUNT" kick, dropping the ball point down and almost vertical, kicking it with the toe of his boot. "Dick" Lee, famous Collingwood forward, used the same type of kick. 
How more actual can it get. Also Dyer uses he term "STAB PUNT" KICK on Wednesday 31 March 1948. Commemt Dyer dose not use the term "Drop Punt" till The Sporting Globe Football Book of 1948 published June 7 1948.  
And note! The Term A Type of "Stab Punt" was first used by Dick Lee. See "DICK LEE sees FLAWS" the Sporting Globe Melbourne, Saturday 18 May 1940  Page 6. 
The second recorded use was by Jack Dyer in Dyer Sees Red . He uses the "Stab Punt kick", dropping the ball point down and almost vertical, kicking it with the toe of his boot. "Dick" Lee, famous Col lingwood forward, used the same type of kick.
Comment. Neither of the above are actually recorded as ever kicking a Stab Punt. The Stab Punt was the conversion by Jim Johnson of the Stab Kick into his Stab Punt in May 1949. Dick Lee’s “A type of Stab punt” was used as a set shot for goal from close in. See more in  "The First Drop Punt Recent research from a kick historian", as Published in the Footy Almanac, 26 June 2015.
DICK LEE AND HIS "A TYPE OF STAB PUNT"
An amazing secret that almost slipped through the cracks.
(1) tjpc type of of swb-punr'in"wh!'c'h swb-punt which he he dropped I
lhc ball point-first and stabbed ulike;w
a shot arrow with hair-line accuracy. ; g —-,and i:
inaccurate.a lost art. „..game Kicking, he says, is wo
Section (1) above is an extract from the 2559 word Electronically Translated Text of “Dick! Dick!-Dick-e-e-e “ By H. A. de Lacy as published on Trove in The Sporting Globe 21 June 1941.
As you can see if you had never heard of a stab punt the above section would not mean anything special.
See section (2) below for Jim Johnson’s corrections to the above section (1).
(2) . “a type of stab-punt in which he dropped
the ball point- first and stabbed it like
a shot arrow with hair-line accuracy. He says he
always picked
crowd and took aim at it.”
a lost art.
spot in the
Kicking, he says
As can be seen if you had not heard of a stab punt or did not know how to kick one the above section (1) would not mean anything special.
The above corrections (in Section 2) were recorded on Trove by Jim Johnson on June 1 2015. See also Jim's 'comments" on this actual article. Text of “Dick! Dick!-Dick-e-e-e “ By H. A. de Lacy as published on Trove in The Sporting Globe 21 June 1941.
There were five words in section (1) to enable Jim Johnson to recognise his target of “stab punt” or “drop punt”. The key words for him in this number (1) group were “punt” “ball point first”and “dropped”. These words were legible amongst this small selected group of words. Jim immediately looked, using magnification, at the actual on line news paper text in which he discovered the amazing words of
“A Type Of Stab Punt”.
Because Jim, at age fifteen in May 1949, had invented and perfected his Stab Punt kick he was able to recognise the potential that " A Type Of Stab Punt" presented.
For further information see. “The First Drop Punt. Recent research from a kick historian” as published in the Footy Almanac of the 26th June 2015.
And
"Almanac History : George Goninon and the punt drop kick."
July 15, 2016. Jim Johnson creator of the Stab Punt presents research evidence of George Goninon's use of a Drop Punt in his success at goal kicking.
Researched by Jim Johnson, Melbourne High 1st "18 Football Colours 1950.  
- See more at: http://australianfootball.com/players/player/len+metherell/5126#sthash.j1vKE6uF.dpuf
so have to just go by the reliable sources, even if they contradict each other to a degree. The-Pope (talk) 02:16, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  moved discussion on origin 

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message: Hi. Just wondering if anybody would like to create some creative commons footage of kicking both of these kicks. Electricmaster (talk) 05:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video of torpedo punt and checkside?