Talk:Abortion in the United Kingdom

message: I was told above that I would have a reponse on the proposed redraft in 48 hours. It has now been over three and a half days. I can't assume that I am going to get an answer, I can't wait forever, so I am going to go ahead. In any event, I think the arguments that have been offered above are manifest nonsense. The material obviously should go in the encyclopedia somewhere, this is as good a place as any, and it can always be moved later if it appears expedient to do so.James500 (talk) 01:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: What I am going to do now

message: (3) The Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom. They are what remains of the Duchy of Normandy. They are part of the British Islands. See the Interpretation Act 1978.James500 (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you feel it is appropriate to create a new Wikipedia article on Abortion in the Channel Islands, we can discuss this. But as I demonstrated in my link to Hansard, people from Guernsey, Jersey, and the Isle of Man, have been coming to the mainland UK for legal abortions since the 1967 Act was passed. Yonmei (talk) 18:58, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Channel Islands

message: "2006 MORI poll
A more recent survey shows support for restricting abortion laws in the UK, and is cited by the Catholic Church in England and Wales as evidence of a growing unease with abortion. [10]"
I've got a concern with the analysis presented by this sentence. It say that there is support for restricting abortion laws in the UK but I read the exact opposite.
"42% of British men and women believe the legal limit for an abortion should be cut (i.e abortion more restricted). 
47% of British women believe the legal limit for an abortion should be cut 
36% of British men believe the legal limit for an abortion should be cut 
10% of British women believe that abortion should be "outlawed altogether" "
So a slim majority of men and women do NOT believe the abortion limit should be cut against the 47% who do. Compare these findings to the earlier poll:
"2005 YouGov/Daily Telegraph poll--Hauskalainen (talk) 05:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I deleted the alleged 2006 poll and replaced it with a 2009 poll. The 2009 poll is published at the MORI web site. The 2006 poll is curiously not there (http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive.aspx?keyword=Abortion).--Hauskalainen (talk) 05:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Polls

message: I did a few minor edits to this very infomative article. Would it be possible to clarify whether the Irish women travelling to GB for abortions are from Northern Ireland, the Republic or both?
~jimfbleak
There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that a large proportion of those 'Irish' women in Britain for abortions aren't Irish at all. Doctors in one Liverpool clinic in 1997 observed that less than 25% of those 'Irish' women actually had Irish accents; most had Liverpool accents, some Scottish, etc. There are still many British women who are unwilling to give a lot of personal details when checking into a hospital for a termination. They suspected that in saying 'I'm Irish' the women in question presumed that that would mean the hospital would decide that it would be tactful not to ask for any detailed info (home addresses, doctor contact numbers etc), on the basis that Irish women travelling for an abortion that was illegal in their own country would be unwilling to give the details and would be embarrassed to be asked. So the claims of Irishness by vast numbers of people seeking abortions are regarded by all but hardcore pro-abortion campaigners are deeply dodgy.
In addition, a travel survey in 1999 found that far less women of childbearing age travelled to specific locations in the UK than the supposed number of people showing up in those clinics for abortions and claiming Irishness. The survey on the demography of travel by age and gender suggested a serious discrepancy in the numbers. As many of these women were according to the survey not flying over with public airlines, and not travelling by boat from Dublin, Dun Laoghaire, Hollyhead or any port in Northern Ireland, the mystery was, how exactly were these 'Irish women' getting to the UK? Unless there is some secret unheard of secret boat or plane service, they were hiring private planes to fly them over or they are travelling to Europe and then to the UK, or they are swimming the Irish Sea, the numbers simply do not tally. 
In one week in June 1999, a review of the number of women of 15-50 travelling to airports, sea ports and other locations within a fifty mile radius of a particular British city suggested that 144% of Irish women who travelled to that geographic area had abortions!!! Details of the exact numbers, or even a reasonable guess of the numbers of Irish women having British abortions, don't exist but put together, information from the hospitals, their data, the observations of staff and the result of the demographic survey of travel all suggest the speculated numbers are pie in the sky and privately off the record many leading abortion campaigners in Ireland admit that. FearÉIREANN 01:42 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
----
I just had to point out that the above is complete and utter nonsense. From wiki 
"Estimates to the number of Irish women seeking abortions in Britain vary, in the 1990s it is alleged that between 1,500 and 10,000 women who stated in hospital records that they were 'Irish' travel annually. The official figure is 45,000 since 1967."
According to the UK Office of National Statistics, 20.4 million people visited Britain in 2006. I also found the following statistics- "Foreign visitors to the UK: American - 13%, French - 12%, German - 11%, Irish - 9.5%, Dutch - 6%". So, almost 2 million Irish people came to the UK in 2006. Admittedly some were probably in transit through UK airports, but I really don't believe that there were so few women of child-bearing age in Britain that 10,000 of them couldn't have been here for abortions. If only 10% of Irish visitors were women of child-bearing age, there would have been 200,000 of them in the UK last year. Maybe Ireland has some strange shortage of child-bearing women, or only men visited the UK. Seanjw 16:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article currently states "Approximately 80,000 women have travelled from Northern Ireland to England or other European countries to access a safe and legal abortion since the Abortion Act was enacted in 1967" Where is that figure from? No references at all are given. The above 4 year old comment from Seanjw does not provide any references either and saying "I really don't believe..." doesn't get anyone any nearer to an accurate figure. The same goes for: "anything up to 2000 pounds". As with every other article on Wikipedia, statistics need to be referenced to a reliable and neutral source. This one is no exception. Until then I am flagging this section.62.254.133.139 (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Ireland

message: The sentence "These provisions remain the law but they have not deterred abortions" seems utterly unlikely and meaningless. I'd call it impossible. JohnHarris (talk) 07:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: The Angus Reid Poll which I deleted is from a web site which pays people to respond to polls. These people have chosen to be part of the panel. They are therefore a self-selected group. Tho polling organizations try to balance their sample, there is no getting away from the fact that this polling method is NOT random, which is the gold standard for opinion polling. Self selected groups are not valid polling samples. Also the results of the poll are at odds with all the other polls. The ip editor who reinstated this poll to the article claims that this organization is a member of the British Polling Council. I checked yesterday and the company was not listed. If I made a mistake I will apologize but it is up to you to prove this.--Hauskalainen (talk) 19:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angus Reid Poll 

message: I have cut the words in italics from the following passage. There is no source and they appear to be at odds with the appearance of the word "unlawfully" in section 58.James500 (talk) 21:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuts 

message: In light of this edit, could someone who has access to the full text of the BMJ paper check that the passage in question, which was added by another anonymous editor is accurate. James500 (talk) 06:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In my view the original paragraph was inaccurate in that it attributed views to Claire Dyer which she may not have held -- a problem that I fixed a few weeks ago in this edit. I have access to the article so let me know if you have any further questions. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 19:31, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: An anonymous editor says the article is not accurate

message: Hey, Why is this story a subsection of the Northern Ireland part? It happened in the Republic. Moreover, what is it doing in an article on abortion in the UK? ~  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.47.179.217 (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of Savita Halappanavar 

message: Someone recently cut the following passages from the section on Northern Ireland:
:The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 allows abortion when necessary to protect the mother's physical and mental health.
:Abortion in Northern Ireland is only legal in exceptional circumstances where the life of the pregnant woman is at immediate risk and if there is a long term or permanent risk to her physical or mental health.See R v Bourne, referred to below and Q&A: Abortion in NI. BBC.
I haven't restored the first because it isn't about NI. James500 (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110723142033/http://www.guernseylegalresources.gg/ccm/legal-resources/laws/health-and-social-services/abortion-guernsey-law-1997-consolidated-text.en;jsessionid=168FB2ECBB02115D5983333DB6DAF7A2 to http://www.guernseylegalresources.gg/ccm/legal-resources/laws/health-and-social-services/abortion-guernsey-law-1997-consolidated-text.en;jsessionid=168FB2ECBB02115D5983333DB6DAF7A2
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*Added  tag to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130123231223/http:/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The claimed legal position in Scotland here and elsewhere seems to be based on the same unsourced assertion that abortion was previously a Common Law offence 'unless performed for “reputable medical reasons”'. My understanding from comments made around the time of the 1967 Act was that abortion was not a specific offence in Scots Law; this is to be distinguished from other offences committed by the consequences of an abortion. Note also that organisations such as SPUC Scotland wrongly quote English Law (e.g. Offences Against the Person Act 1861) when addressing the legal position.MBRZ48 (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scotland 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I think the section about Northern Ireland should be split to create a new article titled Abortion in Northern Ireland. It's clearly notable enough, and that is where a lot of the coverage is. I'm surprised it wasn't an article already.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  04:33, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: At the moment, I don't see the need for a split since the UK article is not too long by WP standards (70kB), and the NI section is the longest but not overwhelmingly so. (However, I'd support expanding the GB section for balance.) I recognise that NI may be considered a special case, but are there any other subnational entities that have their own article on abortion? --Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:15, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

text: I support a split. Abortion in Northern Ireland is its topic that's come about due to a unique case of devolved powers. It's also important because it is the only section in the UK where abortion remains illegal. 194.60.38.230 (talk) 13:55, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

text: I support the split. The history of NI justifies a longer explanation, and the abortion discussion involves more links and references to the social circumstances there, which is less the case in the rest ofthe UK. Thus, the topic is better suited for a separate article. 68.4.116.15 (talk) 16:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split section 

message: The article states that the 1967 act made provision for lawful abortions under 24 weeks. (It was actually 28 weeks)
Later it states (correctly) that the limit was reduced to 24 weeks from 28 weeks in 1990. I am not going to edit the article because in my experience this usually results in an edit war 90.248.77.28 (talk) 04:40, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency over term limits 

message: Under "Church positions" we have the statement "It has been claimed that Catholic opposition to abortion follows from the "doctrine of the double-effect" which originated with St Thomas Aquinas."
* This is quite an odd misconception – in most cases this principle is not applicable at all! 
* "It has been claimed...", is this not weasel words? Is the claim notable? Is it authoritative?
* When you follow the citation, no support is given for the claim. It is there, but just as a plain claim: "Whatever the merits or otherwise of DDE, this is where the Catholic objection to abortion originates from."
* One could elaborate and add some statement to the contrary, but probably this article is not the right place. A historical analysis of the origin of Rome's position on abortion isn't that too much of an aside here?
I propose that the material is removed.
St.nerol (talk) 08:26, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The [[principle of double effect]] 

message: It looks to me as if this article needs attention re Northern Ireland -- see talk:Abortion law#Northern Ireland and  I am not qualified to look at this much further than this -- could some editor more qualified re this than I please take a look at it? Thanks. Wtmitchell  (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:04, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northern Ireland (Oct 2019) 

message: The article would make it seem that abortions are stricter in the rest of the UK  than Northern Ireland. This is farther from the truth. In 2019 Northern Ireland was brought in line with the rest of the UK, not the other way around. https://www.msichoices.org.uk/abortion-services/abortion-and-your-rights/ TheeFactChecker (talk) 17:53, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Abortion on demand is only de jure legal (but not de facto accessible) in Northern Ireland, until the twelfth week of gestation. In the rest of the UK, a woman cannot de jury procure her own abortion (but can de facto obtain one through Ground C). Sceptre (talk) 18:29, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unfactual