Talk:Germanic SS

message: For the record, sources I hav eon the Norwegian Germanic-SS state that the ranks were not capitlized.  Ths SS prefix was considered to be the start of the word.  Probably something to do with the Norwegian language but since I dont speak it, I dont know (I'm going by the textbooks).  So, the Norway SS ranks are not typos.  They are supposed to be lower case, as far as I know. -Husnock 13:55, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norway SS 

message: Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 17:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 

message: While not wanting to change this for the moment I believe that the extra attention giving to swedish volunteers in the SS is a little strange.  Having read in several places that only approximatly 180 swedes fought with the germans compared to far more Norwegians or Danes. I think this should be looked into and possibly changed, as at present it paints sweden being very pro nazi.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.188.208.251 (talk) 09:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the literature that I have read suggests that a Germanic SS organisation was ever actually created in Sweden — even if one may have been planned at some point. —Zalktis (talk) 11:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedish SS 

message: Why is the title hyphenated? Shouldn't it be Germanic SS? --Jan Onbekend (talk) 07:24, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Standard way the Germans did it: Allgemeine-SS, Waffen-SS, Germanic-SS, Reichfuhrer-SS.  There are numerous historical primary source documents that also back this up. -OberRanks (talk) 12:24, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that so? Because it doesn't make sense to me. The article on Allgemeine SS doesn't use a hyphen as Allgemeine is an adjective, isn't it? And the same would apply to Germanic, as it is not a conjunction as in Waffen-SS, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe you could point out some of those sources to me. --Jan Onbekend (talk) 14:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

text: We had this discussion some time ago at the article at Talk:Reichsführer-SS#Hyphen_in_rank and posted several scans of original SS documents.  The original source documents clearly showed the hyphen in all of the titles.  The transliteration is also indicated in primary SS textbooks by Mark Yerger and others.  Not sure why Allgemeine article doesn't have the hyphen.  Seems a very minor issue. -OberRanks (talk) 16:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you got me confused. In Reichsführer-SS the hyphen is clearly joining two nouns. But in Germanic SS it would join an adjective and a noun. That can't be right. It certainly isn't in German. I would really like to see those scans, but can't find them. Any chance, they are online somewhere? --Jan Onbekend (talk) 16:37, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Which, as is observed above, reflects German usage. Whether English does reflect German usage is another question; but that it departs from it to always hyphenate seems unlikely. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyphen in Title 

message: Dutch Allgemeine-SS officers in The Hague in June 1940.
According to the caption the picture shows members of the Nederlandsche SS. Alas, the picture was taken before the Dutch SS was formed. In addition to this, the person in the center is identified as Friedrich Wimmer, General Commissioner of the occupied Netherlands, he's Austrian by birth and German by nationality in 1940. The SS-officers around him show the SD-rhombus, so they are unlikely to be Dutch. --Jan Onbekend (talk) 17:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  image caption 

message: :The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.  
This article uses a hyphen in the title, Allgemeine SS doesn't. My gut feeling is, there shouldn't be one, but some authors use it. Which version is the correct one? --Jan Onbekend (talk) 04:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure there's a naming convention for this somewhere.  What is strange about all of this is that Waffen-SS is listed both on Wikipedia and in historical documents as always hyphenated - Allgemeine SS isn't.  What to do? -OberRanks (talk) 17:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In German there is no need for a hyphen between Allgemeine and SS, as Allgemeine just means general/common and distinguishes a certain branch of the SS. In Waffen-SS the Waffen is like gun in gunboat, but since SS is an abbreviation, it is hyphenated. (In theory it could be Waffenschutzstaffel or something along these lines. Germanic would be treated the same as Allgemeine. So, even if we agree on changing this article's title, it would not affect the article on Waffen-SS or Reichsführer-SS for that matter. --Jan Onbekend (talk) 18:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. Some historians (and places) do hyphen Allgemeine-SS. For example, the title of Robin Lumsden's book: "A Collector's Guide to: The Allgemeine-SS". Chris McNab also does in his book on "The SS", when it is discussed therein. Kierzek (talk) 01:55, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should respect common usage, and the way that sources portray the name. Consistency with a different article should not overrule that. bobrayner (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with Bobrayner. If most reliable sources use a hyphen, then the article name here should use one, too. This is from WP:NAME and regardless of how other articles are named.  Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 18:21, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly it should be used here, I agree, as well. With a hyphen is how the authors and historians commonly list it in English. Kierzek (talk) 21:50, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

text: The ultimate authority would be an original German document from the era, using the term Germanische-SS.  If documents were found with the hyphen, then there would be no doubt.  Records of the Germanic-SS are actually incredibly rare, however, - those who they pertained to burned everything in 1945 to prevent being labeled as traitors by their home countries.  A complete intact Germanic-SS uniform is likewise priceless - I saw one auctioned once for close to $9,000 - and a Corporal's tunic at that! (Danish Germanic-SS Corporal - used in Jewish arrests circa 1944) -OberRanks (talk) 01:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I found this photo  of the cover page of "De SS-Man", the newspaper of the Germaansche SS in Vlaandereren - and this  of the Dutch weekly "Storm SS" on the web. No hyphens anywhere. --Jan Onbekend (talk) 04:14, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that's not in German.  I was referring to German documents of the SS.  In any event, consensus seems to be with leaving the hyphen in place, at least for now -OberRanks (talk) 06:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You will hardly find a source in German using a hyphen, so this argument is futile. So basically you are telling me, you don't have any sources, but that the page cannot be moved because you do not want it to be moved. Great. --Jan Onbekend (talk) 08:19, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

text: We're not moving the page right now because you requested opinions from other editors - you had four editors respond - and everyone who responded agreed to keep the page here.  Not sure what you mean about the sources - we just need to do some research and try and find an original German document which references this agency. -OberRanks (talk) 13:10, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked for a simple statement - all I got was staling. Meanwhile I have done some research and found that a few popular books use the hyphenated version, while most academic publications don't (e.g. the War Department, Stein, Germany and the Second World War, IMT). Which shall it be then? Apart from you and Kierzek, the other two statements support any version that can be supported by sources. I can't rule out that there is a document somewhere in a far far away archive which shows a hyphen, but in general, as I pointed out above, in German it is rarely used for such purposes - because it doesn't make any sense. So, if you know of a German source that uses the hyphenated version, please post it here. --Jan Onbekend (talk) 14:29, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Moved topic to Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Hyphenation_of_Nazi_Paramilitary_Titles.  Archiving this discussion so as we dont have mutlple threads on more than one page. -OberRanks (talk) 18:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. 
Archived, discussion moved here for broader discussion. -OberRanks (talk) 18:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyphen or no hyphen 

message: Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: unsourced WP:OR; WP:NOTMANUAL; c/e for concision & npov; c/e lead for notability. --K.e.coffman (talk) 08:00, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edit