Talk:Kenneth E. Hagin

message: Being greatly disturbed by the accusation of plagiarism on the part of Kenneth Hagin, I determined to find out the truth by obtaining a book by Kenyon from the library and reading it for myself.  Those of you who are familiar with the Atlanta-Fulton County Public Library may already be able to guess what I found - nothing.  There are no books by Kenyon in the Atlanta-Fulton County Public library.  Out of curiosity, I did a search for Hagin, and found nothing by Hagin either, though I did find one by his wife, Oretha Hagin.  Accordingly at this moment I have been unable to research on this topic.-Sally from Atlanta — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.14.60.2 (talk) 11:47, January 22, 2006 (UTC) (Not really "unsigned", however, this makes it possible to relate this entry to the page history)
:Go to any Christian book store and look in the Charismatic section and you'll find a lot of his books.  BraDavWikipedia 04:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Library lacking Hagin material 

message: quote: Chuck continued to write false testimony - including one saying "Hagin rose up healed" when the FACT is that the man died in a coma in a hospital. Given all the man taught on healing, I'd say that's pretty significant.
comment: if he did die in a coma, wasn't it what happened some 65 years AFTER he rose up healed?
Rad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.50.216 (talk) 23:22, October 17, 2006 (UTC) (Not really "unsigned", however, this makes it possible to relate this entry to the page history)
:Rad,
:You were not here for the earlier discussions so there is no way you could know the context (just an observation, not a criticism of you).
:Chuck claimed that Hagin 'rose up healed' AFTER he had been in the hospital in September 2003 in a coma for a bundle branch block that he suffered earlier in the week. (Note: My uncle works at Rhema and was there - this is how I know about it because we were corresponding on the phone during Hagin's last hospital stay.
:It had nothing to do with his earlier healing. Chuck posted on the article that 'Hagin rose up healed' in September 2003 before he left the earth. The FACT is that he did not.
:Maestroh  — Preceding undated comment added 20:04, October 24, 2006
::The translation of Mark 11:22 is not outside of historical Christianity, though the connotation offered is obviously under dispute. Check your commentaries on more "orthodox" and educated exegetes.
::John Gill's "Expostion of the Entire Bible" - have faith in God; or "the faith of God", so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions;
::Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge - faith in God:  or, the faith of God
::Albert Barnes "Notes on the Bible" - Have faith in God - Literally, “Have the faith of God.”
::Adam Clarke's "Commentary on the Bible" - Have faith in God - Εχετε πιϚιν θεου is a mere Hebraism: have the faith of God
::Geneva Bible translation notes - Mar 11:22 - And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have (e) faith in God. (e) The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him.
::We may not all agree, but let us all be loving, honest, and educated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markandrobbin (talk • contribs) 01:55, November 10, 2006 (UTC)
:::The translation of Mark 11:22 is not outside of historical Christianity ('of God' is not; Hagin's INTERPRETATION OF THOSE WORDS IS - it presumes God is NOT omniscient), though the connotation offered is obviously under dispute. Check your commentaries on more "orthodox" and educated exegetes. (I look forward to what you write - my comments are in parenthesis)
:::John Gill's "Expostion of the Entire Bible" - have faith in God; or "the faith of God", so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; (I will look this one up as I've never heard it before)(Gill also states - VERY EXPLICITLY - that this is 'faith of which God is the object.' Nowhere does Dr Gill even hint that Hagin's distortion of the passage is acceptable). (text in parentheses replaced 15:40, December 13, 2006 (UTC) by 199.184.196.139)
:::Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge - faith in God:  or, the faith of God
:::Albert Barnes "Notes on the Bible" - Have faith in God - Literally, “Have the faith of God.” (I've read this one. claim. His commentary says nothing about God having faith despite his literal rendering. Is Barnes using 'of' God as in COMES FROM God (orthodox) or as God EXERCISES (heresy of denying God's omniscience)
:::Adam Clarke's "Commentary on the Bible" - Have faith in God - Εχετε πιϚιν θεου is a mere Hebraism: have the faith of God (You didn't quote ALL Clarke wrote on it, either: ", i.e. have strong faith or the strongest faith, for thus the Hebrews expressed the superlative degree; so the mountains of God, mean exceeding great mountains, the hail of God, exceeding great hail, etc." Given the chance to say, "God has faith," Clarke does not do so. He thus cannot be considered a witness in favor of Hagin).
:::Geneva Bible translation notes - Mar 11:22 - And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have (e) faith in God. (e) The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him. (Correct - trust that WE have in HIM; NOT THAT HE EXERCISES!!! This citation is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Hagin is teaching).
:::We may not all agree, but let us all be loving, honest, and educated
:::(I am; it is quite clear that I am rather educated as I was well aware of ALL the sources you cite save Gill. Your list seems to come from the same Word of Faith apologists online who have refused to debate me on this very issue - mostly because none has ever taken Greek. I leave you with the words of America's foremost Greek grammarian at present - he authored the text used in 70% of USA seminaries - Daniel Wallace on this issue: “I would also add that to see the pistis as subjective (in Mark 11:22) seems to go counter, as you noted, to virtually all exegesis of that text. It’s also counter to (virtually) all translations, including KJV (which is, incidentally, ambiguous at Romans 3:22, but not at Mark 11:22!, Luther’s, etc. When a particular group argues for a viewpoint that runs counter to all exegesis, finds no support in the history of the church, is hardly the most plausible in the context, is against all of biblical theology, and needs to be explained before it can even e comprehended, then it is obviously motivated by an agenda.”
:::(Stephen Paul Sullivan, ““Design And Evaluation Of A College Course On The False Doctrines And Practices Of The Word of Faith Movement,” August 2000).
:::Thank you.
:::199.91.36.254 22:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Healed" but died in a coma 

message: Because some of you are both unfamiliar with how entries in a discussion must be formatted according to Wikipedia guidelines, and to assure clarity of reading, and because, despite the fact that the infobox at the top of the page has been added to explain how to go about submitting an entry, a considerable effort has to be put in by regular users such as I, in order to prevent this talk page from becoming a complete, unnavigable chaos: Please read and learn the guidelines at the top of this page for participating in a discussion!. Then others won't have to expend their efforts in order that you may participate in free axchange of ideas and opinions. __meco 17:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A plea to users participating on this talk page 

message: Kennith E Hagin  Kennith Hagin was a preacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  His life is well documented and his ministry succeeds him, by his son Kennith Hagin Jr., and is based in Tulsa Oklahoma.  The emphasis of his ministry was on faith.  He stated in his writing that he held nothing against anyone, who disagreed with him.  Among his readers, Hagin remains a very popular and positive force.  His writings center around what the Bible says.
Promises A popular saying the epitomizes what Hagin taught is "The Bible says it.  I believe it. That settles it."  Hagin believed in promises of God, found in the Bible.  He has stated in his teachings that the Bible is a system of promises and rewards.
References Hagin did use material from others in some of his teachings. The word teaching needs to be emphasised here.  As another person so poignantly stated, Hagin was publishing a message, not trying to win academic awards.   He even stated that he was once given some material from a retiring pentecostal preacher and pastor to use as he would.
Full Life Kennith Hagin live a full life.  He died past the age of 80, when he wasn't expected to live past being a teenager.  At a young age he became a pastor, and then later traveled the country preaching and teaching on the promises of God and praying for the sick.  He started a Bible training center to prepare people for ministry.  Hagin wrote that as a young man, his desire was to find happiness in life and have a family -- by his own testimony, he was able to have all these things.
Today One of the great reason Hagin remains popular today is that people who are in need are looking for answers.  Kennith Hagin taught on receiving the promises of God, as found in the Bible, through faith.  His writing bring hope to millions of people.
BraDavWikipedia 07:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard to see the relevance of the previous submission by BraDavWikipedia. I take this opportunity to re-emphasize the instruction provided at the top of this page: This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.. Thus, entries should address a particular issue having bearing on the quality of the article. __meco 12:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hagin's Teachings 

message: One user, User:Dvreeland, has changed the wording of "Vreeland, too, believes Hagin to be guilty of deliberate plagiarism." to "Vreeland, too, believes Hagin unintentionally used the thoughts and ideas of Kenyon without properly attributing them to Kenyon.". I haven't read the full Vreeland text, however, in footnote 34 it reads:
:"One theory to explain the “plagiarism” of Kenyon by Hagin is that it was an unintentional editorial oversight. Many of Hagin’s books are written by ghost writers who have transcribed the material from audio cassettes of Hagin’s sermons. During the early days of Rhema Bible Training Center, Hagin would read passages from Kenyon’s books. It is possible that those tapes entered the mix of tapes used by the ghost writers, who incorporated the Kenyon passages into Hagin’s books assuming that Hagin was preaching. There is not conclusive proof of this theory. This does not explain the plagiarism of Kenyon in Hagin’s articles in the Word of Faith as cited by McConnell. Furthermore, whether it is intentional or unintentional plagiarism it is still an error that Kenneth Hagin needs to correct."
If this is the only citation to support either position, it leaves me at a loss in deciding which is more accurate, that is, they could both be wrong. The second one is certainly wrong as is obvious from the above quotation, however, that doesn't mean the previous version was an accurate representation. I'll leave this edit for now, expecting other editors to give their take on this. __meco 08:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intentional or unintentional plagiarism (or both) 

message: In a recent edit text was added that to me reads a little like a eulogy. Had it not been for the fact that it comes without attribution to a source I might accept it. As it stands I would rather it be removed. __meco 07:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced eulogy 

message: :Many would argue that plagiarism in Christian teaching, or 'informal borrowing', and plagiarism in secular books are two very different things.  Christian teachers are "supposed" to be getting their inspiration from God, so how could it be considered plagiarism if those teachers are just relaying what they have received from God?  God is the one being plagiarzed, but I don't think He minds.
:Most Christian teaching does not, and probably should not, come from new ideas, but rather the same ideas and revelations that the Apostles of the Bible taught in their time. There are many similar, and even exact, ideas, words and phrases when you compare the writings of those in the Bible.  If the Apostle Paul were still alive today he could sue 99% of the Christian teachers for plagiarism (Jesse Duplantis).  That being said, Christian and secular writers alike should still note their sources, and Brother Hagin did that in his republished works.
The above was entered by 68.53.14.189, and although the thoughts presented are sound in my judgment they constitute original research. If some published source stating the exact same opinion can be produced it can clearly be presented in the article in the section dealing with the plagiarism controversy. __meco 07:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed private opinion 

message: I am quick-failing this article because it doesn't have any sources. 
At first sight i see many other problems;
*the lead doesn't summarise the whole article (see WP:LEAD)
*listing all of his books is really necessary? you should try and do a selection  ( see WP:EMBED, lists within an article are highly discouraged)
*i would recommend separating his personal life and his preching, in two different sections
*the "Claimed he was healed" and the "Healed But Still Sick?" sections should be merged
There are many, many other problems, but the most important, and the reason why i am failing the article is that it seems to be 99% original research. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability and What is a Good Article? before renominating. Thanks for your work so far. -Yamanbaiia (talk) 19:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA review 

message: This was one of the worst merges, into one of the most poorly-sourced BLP articles, that I've ever witnessed at WP. The original RBTC page simply needed additional citations, and would have been an excellent article; this article fails on so many levels, it's not even funny. Blech. --98.18.130.171 (talk) 17:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Luckily, the article history for the RHEMA Bible Training Center article hasn't been deleted, so perhaps someone will do the work you mention. __meco (talk) 19:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge of RBTC 

message: User:Brother Mel had inserted information which he has apparently himself researched on the influence on Hagin by Rev. and Mrs. J.R. Goodwin in this edit. This was subsequently removed in another edit citing "uncited/original research". This is appropriate as the text obviously infringes on Wikipedia's guidelines with respect to insertion original research. The text appears quite relevant, though, so I place it here and hopefully it can be added at a later time if external citation by reliable sources can be procured.
Rev. Mel C. Montgomery, a researcher of Hagin's early years has written, "Critics make the case that Hagin was strongly influenced by the writings of E.W. Kenyon.  Indeed he was, but only after he had been healed and had ministered on the subject of faith for several years.  It was at an early point in his ministry--not at the very beginning--that Brother Hagin appears to have merged Kenyon's teachings with his own.
It is clear that the teachings of Kenyon--whom Hagin never met--eventually influenced Hagin's developing "Faith Message."  However, the larger and more interesting story is of the influence in Hagin's life before, during, and for years after Hagin read Kenyon's work.  That influence was his life-long friendship and ministry relationship with Rev. and Mrs. J.R. Goodwin whom he met in 1938.
I heard Brother Hagin say at a minister's meeting I attended in 1991 the following:
'For the first 40 years of my ministry, whenever God would give me a major vision or revelation, I would not fully teach it and preach it until I had shared it with the Goodwins and asked them to judge it and correct me if they thought I needed it.'
Kenneth Hagin submitted to the Goodwins' instruction and supervision for the first 40 years of his ministry.  Although the Goodwins did not accept Kenyon's unique interpretations and teachings, and neither did most Pentecostal leaders of the time of which I am aware, Mom and Dad Goodwin did not let this disagreement drive Hagin and them apart . . . Kenneth Hagin Jr., has e-mailed me the following comment:  'You are so correct. Dad and Papa and Mama Goodwin were very close friends. Dad spoke at Papa Goodwin’s funeral and in her last years Mama Goodwin was a member of my church and I had the priviledge of speaking at her funeral.'"--From "J.R. Goodwin and Kenneth Hagin," by Mel C. Montgomery, at www.brothermel.com/jrgoodwinandkennethhagin.aspx.
__meco (talk) 08:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goodwin text 

message: This section has been created by self proclaimed atheist and a few of the accusations in this section are taken out of context. For instance when the editor claims to be taking alleged Kenneth Hagin articles from pages from his books, they have twisted the quotes around.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfssoccer (talk • contribs) 23:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you must make a much better argument for your case if you are to influence the consensus on this. The problem up until now with maintaining the integrity of this article has primarily dealt with true believers (Hagin acolytes?) who simply remove sections of the article which they find offensive providing no rationale for doing so. The rationale which you provide is cursory and unsubstantiated. Bring out some references to support your assertion if you realistically want a change of this to be effected. __meco (talk) 23:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Controversy Section 

message: The indented text below was removed from the article today since the requests for references have not been acted on. __meco (talk) 00:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems odd to me that you don't know the difference, that is commonly acknowledged, between injury and sickness. Hagin's arm was injured. I believe (I'm working from memory here; I'm not 100% positive) he fell and injured his arm. I am certain that it was injury and not sickness, regardless of how it occurred. In America, "injury" is not a synonym for "sickness," though we do use "healing" as a common term for the recovery of both maladies. BTW, "I Believe In Visions" was an exceptional book. I think all should read it. It is a Hagin's description of eight visions that he received from the Lord.76.6.94.150 (talk) 07:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections removed from article

message: Hagin was considered by his followers to be a dynamic preacher, teacher, and prophet known for preaching divine healing and prosperity through searching God's word and believing God in faith for financial gifts, then claiming and receiving them by faith. His Bible teaching focused mainly on faith and the victorious life of a Christian.
==== Plagiarism Controversy ====
In 1983, two students at Oral Roberts University alleged that the bulk of Hagin's theological teachings were lifted verbatim from the writings of other authors. D.R. McConnell, who wrote his Master's thesis about the Word of Faith movement, alleged that Hagin had plagiarized the writings of evangelist E.W. Kenyon, teaching not only the ideas of Kenyon but also lifting text word-for-word from many of Kenyon's eighteen published works.
Dale Simmons, one of McConnell's colleagues doing research for his paper entitled "An Evaluation Of Kenneth E. Hagin's Claim To Be A Prophet", discovered what he has described as plagiarism by Hagin of an author named John A. MacMillan. In this case it is alleged that Hagin not only plagiarized the text word-for-word, but also the title, "The Authority of the Believer".
Upon discovering Hagin's use of MacMillan's material, Simmons contacted the publishing house that published MacMillan's original work. The president of the publishing company confronted Hagin with evidence of the plagiarism. Hagin's response was to claim that he had not plagiarized anyone but that his acknowledgment of MacMillan had been an oversight. Hagin then implicitly claimed that the plagiarism was actually proof that his teaching and MacMillan's teaching were from God. In a portion of a letter printed on page 68 of "A Different Gospel" by D.R. McConnell, Hagin argued that persons speaking on the same subject use 'virtually the same words' because 'it is the same Spirit that is leading and directing.' Simmons did not accept this argument, noting that it begged the question why Hagin felt it necessary to read any books at all if God was going to inspire him to have the same thoughts and words as another author.This information is available from Oral Roberts University in Dale H. Simmons' Master's thesis, An Evaluation of Kenneth E. Hagin's Claim To Be A Prophet. Simmons repeats these charges in his 1997 book, E.W. Kenyon: The Postbellum Pursuit of Peace, Prosperity, And Plenty. Hagin did, however, give credit to MacMillan when a new copy with a new title ("The Believer's Authority") was released in 1984.
At present, Kenyon's Gospel Publishing Company, based in Washington state, argues that Hagin did not plagiarize based on the fact that his books were merely sermons that were converted into book form. This claim, however, contradicts the statements of Ruth Kenyon Houseworth, Kenyon's daughter, given to both Judith Matta and D.R. McConnell in 1982.
William DeArteaga, a defender of the Faith movement, acknowledged that Hagin was guilty of plagiarism in his 1992 book, Quenching The Spirit (p. 243-245 of the 1996 edition). Geir Lie, a scholar who is favorable to E.W. Kenyon went so far as to say that Hagin's plagiarism was conscious and systematic (according to DeArteaga). Derek Vreeland, another charismatic scholar, presented his findings at the Thirtieth Annual Meeting of the Society for Pentecostal Studies."Reconstructing Word of Faith Theology: A Defense, Analysis and Refinement of the Theology of the Word of Faith Movement" Vreeland, too, believes Hagin unintentionally used the thoughts and ideas of Kenyon without properly attributing them to Kenyon.
Dale Simmons, who discovered Hagin's plagiarism of John A. MacMillan, concurs that Hagin plagiarized, but he theorizes that it was an instance of informal borrowing in Hagin's early preaching ministry.
The 'informal borrowing' that is common among preachers may account for some of the instances of plagiarism. Hagin lived near Dallas in his formative years, and E.W. Kenyon's works were very popular in the Dallas area at that time (the 1930s). Although this fails to explain the massive amount of plagiarism Hagin apparently committed, it is worth noting that in many instances he has cited by name sources that he used including Dr. Lillian B. Yeomans, Smith Wigglesworth, Corrie ten Boom, Ethan O. Allen, and some other (mostly Pentecostal-type) preachers. He has also favorably remarked about the ministry of Charles G. Finney.
==== Allegations of introducing gnostic heresies ====
Author Judith Irene Matta, M.Th., has accused Hagin of being instrumental in reviving gnosticismJudith Irene Matta, The Born-Again Jesus of the Word Faith Teaching, p. 21-22, 25.. Matta has written extensively on the perceived word of faith heresy founded by E.W. Kenyon. Church father Irenaeus of Lyon's Against Heresies (180 ad) is considered by many the backbone of all Christian criticism of gnosticism. Mattas' book uses Irenaios' systematic exposition of these teachings to debunk what she considers the revived gnosticism in word of faith teachings. What Matta labels Kenyon's gnostic system was adopted by Kenneth Hagin, colleagues Kenneth Copeland, Fred Price and many others. Matta asserts that Kenyon's word of faith movement has basically taken over the pentecostal churches and Christian television. Her first book, The Born-Again Jesus of Word-Faith Teachings (1985) documents the teaching that Jesus lost his divinity and was born-again in Hell after suffering there in torment "paying for our sins"; Matta likens this to the ancient gnostic teaching of the Redeemed Redeemer, Sophia. The alleged heresy is, according to Matta, lifted verbatim from Kenyon's book, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, and repeated in Hagin's and Copeland's books and tapes of the same name and basic content.
==== Healed But Still Sick? ====
Hagin argued in numerous books — including Healing Belongs To Us, Seven Things You Need To Know About Divine Healing and Faith Takes Back What The Devil's Stolen— that he had never been sick since 1933.
However, in his book I Believe In Visions, Hagin writes "The Lord told me...that he would restore 99 percent of the use of that arm. He said He was going to leave that 1 percent disability (not from sickness) to remind me not to disobey Him again, but to use the ministry He had given me." (p. 93, second edition).
Hagin also writes, "The Lord...He said...instead of being angry with Me for not preventing it, you should be glad I allowed it to happen. If I hadn't permitted Satan to do this to arrest your attention you would not have lived past the age of 55, because you would have continued in my permissive will instead of my perfect will." (p. 92, second edition).
</blockquote>
:It seems odd to me that you don't know the difference, that is commonly acknowledged, between injury and sickness. Hagin's arm was injured. I believe (I'm working from memory here; I'm not 100% positive) he fell and injured his arm. I am certain that it was injury and not sickness, regardless of how it occurred. In America, "injury" is not a synonym for "sickness," though we do use "healing" as a common term for the recovery of both maladies. BTW, "I Believe In Visions" was an exceptional book. I think all should read it. It is a Hagin's description of eight visions that he received from the Lord.76.6.94.150 (talk) 07:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial legacy 

message: Hagin argued in numerous books — including Healing Belongs To Us, Seven Things You Need To Know About Divine Healing and Faith Takes Back What The Devil's Stolen— that he had never been sick since 1933.
However, in his book I Believe In Visions, Hagin writes "The Lord told me...that he would restore 99 percent of the use of that arm. He said He was going to leave that 1 percent disability (not from sickness) to remind me not to disobey Him again, but to use the ministry He had given me." (p. 93, second edition).
Hagin also writes, "The Lord...He said...instead of being angry with Me for not preventing it, you should be glad I allowed it to happen. If I hadn't permitted Satan to do this to arrest your attention you would not have lived past the age of 55, because you would have continued in my permissive will instead of my perfect will." (p. 92, second edition).
</blockquote>
:It seems odd to me that you don't know the difference, that is commonly acknowledged, between injury and sickness. Hagin's arm was injured. I believe (I'm working from memory here; I'm not 100% positive) he fell and injured his arm. I am certain that it was injury and not sickness, regardless of how it occurred. In America, "injury" is not a synonym for "sickness," though we do use "healing" as a common term for the recovery of both maladies. BTW, "I Believe In Visions" was an exceptional book. I think all should read it. It is a Hagin's description of eight visions that he received from the Lord.76.6.94.150 (talk) 07:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Healed But Still Sick? 

message: Unsourced material that could  be libelous was removed. The removed material is below.
:In 1983, two students at Oral Roberts University alleged that the bulk of Hagin's theological teachings were lifted verbatim from the writings of other authors. D.R. McConnell, who wrote his Master's thesis about the Word of Faith movement, alleged that Hagin had plagiarized the writings of evangelist E.W. Kenyon, teaching not only the ideas of Kenyon but also lifting text word-for-word from many of Kenyon's eighteen published works.This is not surprising, however, as E.W. Kenyon has widely been acknowledged as the father of the modern Word of Faith movement.
:Dale Simmons, one of McConnell's colleagues doing research for his paper, discovered what he has described as plagiarism by Hagin of an author named John A. MacMillan. In this case it is alleged that Hagin not only plagiarized the text word-for-word, but also the title, "The Authority of the Believer".
:Billye Brim, a Christian speaker who worked for Kenneth Hagin Ministries, stated at Kenneth Copeland's 2007 Ministers' Conference that they (her ministry) and Kenneth Hagin Ministries were working to bring "The Authority of the Believer" by John MacMillan back into print. There have been many books with similar content over the past 40 years.
:Geir Lie, a scholar who is favorable to E.W. Kenyon went so far as to say that Hagin's plagiarism was conscious and systematic (according to DeArteaga).
:Dale Simmons, who discovered Hagin's plagiarism of John A. MacMillan, concurs that Hagin plagiarized, but he theorizes that it was an instance of informal borrowing in Hagin's early preaching ministry. The 'informal borrowing' that is common among preachers may account for some of the instances of plagiarism. Hagin lived near Dallas in his formative years, and E.W. Kenyon's works were very popular in the Dallas area at that time (the 1930s). Although this fails to explain the massive amount of plagiarism Hagin apparently committed, it is worth noting that in many instances he has cited by name sources that he used including Dr. Lillian B. Yeomans, Smith Wigglesworth, Corrie ten Boom, Ethan O. Allen, and some other (mostly Pentecostal-type) preachers. He has also favorably remarked about the ministry of Charles G. Finney.
Per Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons unsourced material was removed and should not be re-inserted until sources meeting Wikipedia's standards are added. Thank you.Ltwin (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, but he's not living so WP:BLP does not apply for facts that do not involve other living persons. Mfield (talk) 19:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, lol, what was I thinking. Sorry I'll revert. lolLtwin (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced Material Removed

message: What's deviation of his theory of substitutionary atonement, as described in the section Theology under Substitutionary Act? As much as I can see his view is not very far from the main stream. As much as I've read about the Swedish Word of Faith, the big difference is that by the Substitutionary Act, Jesus transfered all magical powers and overnatural stuff to us, if we just enter the WOFF school and learn the techniques, and sponsors the ueber-priests chromed cadillac... Or...? Said: Rursus (☻) 18:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Theory of Substitution uniqueness?

message: One line reads "Hagin chose not to litigate against these reckless and false claims, as would have been his right, as these claims were hearsay meant to damage him apart from a factual basis."
This is clearly biased. It is unfortunate that the facts can't be stated with someone trying to defend Hagin and at the same time use this article as a means to attack his critics.
plus, after looking at this talk page, it is pretty clear no one read the first line: "This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject."
Philovino (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Written by an apologist? 

message: The NPOV has been up for 2 years under Biography.  Is the NPOV of this article still being debated or is it safe to say it has been resolved by this point.  I searched the entire talk page and found no talk of the NPOV tag.  Does anyone object to it's removal as it stands.  Remember, NPOV just states that you think the article as it stands right now is written in a neutral point of view, not your point of view.  
Impact2d (talk) 07:27, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it has stood long enough. I am making it know now I will probably remove it in a few weeks if no one objects. Basileias (talk) 14:53, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV debate