Talk:Caral–Supe civilization/Archive 1

message: An anon has repeatedly disputed the article title here; I'm very much hoping that he or she figures out how the talk pages work and ceases posting observations directly in articles. First:
* We need to describe the academic dispute, but attacks on the credibility of researchers violate WP:BLP and cannot be tolerated.
Re the name:
* WP:A: "English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia." This doesn't mean we can't use the Spanish sources (I don't read Spanish, but no doubt we can find someone to help); it does mean that what the English sources call the civilization is what must be given primacy. The most recent English sources call it Norte Chico; the Spanish wiki has a Civilización Caral, which is probably appropriate there because that's what their sources call it.
* Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Thus, as important as the name provided by the primary researchers, is that used by reliable, summative, secondary sources. The most complete survey of the literature in English (AFAIK) is from Mann in 1491 and Science. He uses Norte Chico, and this page sticks with him.
* "Norte Chico civilization" may create confusion given the Chilean region of the same name, but "Caral(-Supe) civilization" is far more problematic: it suggests to the reader that the Caral site is the oldest, largest, and/or that it was politically dominant. The first appears to be wrong, the second is equivocal, and there is no evidence for the third. And it wasn't the first studied site, if that's the argument—Aspero was. Marskell 18:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note on article title 

message: Hola, anon; I've helped a wee bit on this article, and have been reading your entries.  Since you aren't a registered user, I'm not sure how I can contact you to ask if you might be able to come up with any Peruvian news sources to verify this woman's connections to Sendero Luminoso ?  If you have time, or are aware of any sources, favor de contactarme al User talk:SandyGeorgia, or por mi e-mail.  Gracias!  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dirigido al anonimo

message: Thanks, if you google her name, you can find more, but I'm looking for Peruvian press verification, if there is any.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sure

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In order of appearance
SHADY, Ruth
:1993 Del Arcaico al Formativo en los Andes Centrales. In: Revista Andina. Centro Bartolomé de las Casas. Cusco.
:1995 La Neolitización en Los Andes Centrales y los Orígenes del Sedentarismo, la Domesticación y la Distinción Social. In: Saguntum, Revista del Departamento de Prehistoria y Arqueología, 28, Universidad de Valencia, España.
:1997 La Ciudad Sagrada de Caral - Supe en los Albores de la Civilización en el Perú. Fondo Editorial, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, 75 p. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Libros/Arqueologia/ciudad_sagrada/caratula.htm)
:1997 Caral. La Cité Ensevelie, In: Archéologia, N 340, pags. 58-65, France. (http://www.faton.fr/scripts/index_numero.asp?id_titre=2&id_pro=340)
:1999 La Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe. Museo de Arqueología y Antropología Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos. Lima, 14 p.
SHADY, Ruth y Sonia LÓPEZ
:1999 Ritual de Enterramiento de un Recinto en el Sector Residencial A en Caral-Supe. In: Boletín de Arqueología, Pontificia Universidad Católica del Perú, No.3: 187-212.
SHADY, Ruth
:1999 La Religión como una forma de cohesión social y manejo político en los albores de la civilización en el Perú. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 9, Lima, pp. 13-15. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/1999_N09/religion.htm)
:1999 Flautas de Caral: El conjunto musical más antiguo de América. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 10, Lima, pp. 4-5. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/1999_n10/a03.pdf)
:1999 El Sustento Económico del Surgimiento de la Civilización en el Perú. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 11, Lima, pp. 2-4. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/1999_n11/a02.pdf)
:1999 Los Orígenes de la Civilización y la Formación del Estado en el Perú: Las evidencias arqueológicas de Caral-Supe (Primera Parte). In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 2, n 12, Lima, pp. 2-4. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/1999_n12/a02.pdf)
SHADY, Ruth, Marco MACHACUAY y Rocío ARAMBURÚ
:2000 Un Geoglifo de Estilo Sechín en el valle de Supe. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 1, Lima, pp. 2-11. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n01/a01.pdf)
SHADY, Ruth
:2000 Los orígenes de la Civilización y la Formación del Estado en el Perú. Las evidencias arqueológicas de Caral - Supe (Segunda Parte). In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 2, Lima, pp. 2-7. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/2000_N02/origenes.htm)
:2000 Práctica Mortuoria de la Sociedad de Caral - Supe, durante el Arcaico Tardío. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, N 3, Lima, pp. 2-15. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/2000_N03/pract_mortuoria.htm)
SHADY, Ruth, Marco MACHACUAY y Sonia LÓPEZ
:2000 Recuperando La Historia del Altar del Fuego Sagrado. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología. Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos. Lima, año 3, N 4 pp 2 - 19. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/Bibvirtual/Publicaciones/antropologia/2000_N04/reantropologia.htm)
SHADY, Ruth y Miriam GONZÁLEZ
:2000 Una Tumba Circular Profanada de la Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n5, Lima, pp. 2-9. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n05/a01.pdf)
SHADY, Ruth, Marco MACHACUAY y Rocío ARAMBURÚ
:2000 La Plaza Circular del Templo Mayor de Caral: Su presencia en Supe y en el área Norcentral del Perú. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 8, Lima, pp. 2-25.
SHADY, Ruth
:2000 Sustento Socioeconómico del Estado Prístino de Supe Perú: Las evidencias de Caral - Supe. In: Arqueología y Sociedad. Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos. Lima, N 13, pp. 49-66.
SHADY, Ruth, Camilo DOLORIER, Fanny MONTESINOS y Lyda CASAS
:2000 Los Orígenes de la Civilización en el Perú: el área Norcentral y el valle de Supe durante el Arcaico Tardío. In: Arqueología y Sociedad. Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima, N 13, pp. 13-48.
SHADY, Ruth, Martha PRADO, Carlos LEYVA, Jorge MORENO, Carlos JIMENEZ y Celso LLIMPE
:2000 Las Flautas de Caral-Supe: Aproximaciones al Estudio Acústico-Arqueológico del Conjunto de Flautas más Antiguo de América. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 11, Lima, pp. 2-9. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n11/a01.pdf)
SHADY, Ruth y Marco MACHACUAY
:2000 El Altar del Fuego Sagrado del Templo Mayor de la Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe. In: Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 3, n 12, Lima, pp. 2-18. (http://sisbib.unmsm.edu.pe/bibvirtualdata/publicaciones/antropologia/2000_n12/a01.pdf)
SHADY, Ruth
:2001 Caral-Supe y la Costa Norcentral del Perú: La cuna de la civilización y la formación del estado prístino. In: Historia de la cultura peruana I. Fondo Editorial del Congreso del Perú. Lima, pp. 45-87.
SHADY, Ruth
:2001 La Ciudad Sagrada de Caral-Supe y los Orígenes de la Civilización Andina. Museo de Arqueología y Antropología de la Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima, 48 pp.
SHADY, Ruth, Jonathan HAAS y Winifred CREAMER
:2001 Dating Caral, a Preceramic Site in the Supe Valley on the Central Coast of Peru. In: SCIENCE, vol 292: 723-726. (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/292/5517/723)
SHADY, Ruth
:2001 Caral: La primera ciudad del nuevo mundo. En: Revista Copé, vol. XI - N 28, Lima, pp. 1-6
SHADY, Ruth, Pedro NOVOA y Dolores BUITRÓN
:2001 Artefactos simbólicos de Caral-Supe y su importancia en la tradición cultural andina. En Boletín del Museo de Arqueología y Antropología, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, año 4, n 4, Lima, pp. 87-94.
SHADY, Ruth
:2001 Caral, la Ciudadela más Antigua de América. In: Revista Rumbos, año V, nro. 29, Lima, pp. 72-76.
:2002 Caral, Supe: La civilización más antigua de América. En: Revista del Instituto de Investigaciones Histórico Sociales, año VI, nro. 9, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima, pp. 51-81.
:2002 Caral-Supe La Civilización más antigua del Perú y América. In: Revista Múltiple Cultura Peruana. año 2002, nro. 3, pp. 60-68.
SHADY, Ruth
:2003 Caral-Supe, la civilización más antigua de América. Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral-Supe, Lima, 42 pp.
SHADY, Ruth y Carlos LEYVA, eds.
:2003 La ciudad sagrada de Caral-Supe. Los orígenes de la civilización andina y la formación del Estado prístino en el antiguo Perú. Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral-Supe, Lima, 342 pp.
HAAS, Jonathan, Winifred CREAMER, and Alvaro RUIZ
:2003 Gourd lord. Archaeology. Volume 56 Number 3, May/June (http://www.archaeology.org/0305/newsbriefs/gourd.html)
SHADY, Ruth
:2004 Caral-Supe, Perú: The oldest civilization in the Americas. Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral-Supe, Lima, 41 pp.
:2004 Caral-Supe, la civilización más antigua de Perú y de América. En: Andean Archaeology III: North and South. William H. Isbell y Helaine Silverman, eds.
:2004 The Foundations of Andean Civilization: Papers in Honor of Michael E. Moseley. Joyce Marcus, Charles Stanish and Patrick Ryan Williams, eds. (in press).
HAAS, Jonathan and Winifred CREAMER
:2004 Cultural transformations in the Central Andean Late Archaic. Andean Archaeology: Variations in Sociopolitical Organization, Helaine SILVERMAN, ed, p. 35-50.
SHADY, Ruth
:2004 Caral La ciudad del fuego sagrado / Caral the city of the sacred fire. Centura Sab. Lima.
HAAS, Jonathan, Winifred CREAMER, Alvaro RUIZ
:2005 Power and the Emergence of Complex Polities in the Peruvian Preceramic. Archeological Papers of the American Anthropological Association (Jan 2004), Vol. 14, No. 1: 37-52
SHADY, Ruth
:2006 Caral-Supe and the North-Central Area of Peru: The History of Maize in the Land Where Civilization Came into Being. Histories of Maize - Multidisciplinary Approaches to the Prehistory, Linguistics, Biogeography, Domestication, and Evolution of Maize. Edited by John Staller, Robert Tykot and Bruce Benz. Academic Press
 
HAAS, Jonathan and Winifred CREAMER
:2006 Crucible of Andean Civilization. Current Anthropology, volume 47, pages 745–775 (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?id=doi:10.1086/506281)
Marskell 08:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary sources 

message: In order of appearance
BEGLEY, Sharon
:2001 New World Pyramids. Newsweek. May 7, 2001: 60-61.
:2001 Pirámides de América. Newsweek en español. 9 de mayo del 2001: 42-43.
VÉLEZ A., Judith
:2001 La ciudad más antigua de América, el fuego eterno de Caral. Cosas. Agosto-Setiembre 2001: 36-39.
CACHAY, Raúl
:2001 Caral 3000 a. C. Somos. Año XIV Nº 753: 20-24.
SHADY, Ruth
:2001 Caral, la ciudadela más antigua de América / Caral, the oldest citadel in the Americas. Rumbos. Año V, Nº 29: 72-76
SHADY, Ruth
:2001 Caral: la primera ciudad del nuevo mundo. Copé. Setiembre 2001. Volumen XI, Nº 28: 1-6.
BÖKEMEIER, Rolf
:2001 Amerikas äteste Stadt entdeckt! (with photographs by George Steinmetz). Geo. 12 dezember 2001: 98-118 (http://www.geo.de/GEO/kultur/geschichte/773.html)
MARTINDALE, Diane
:2002 Pre-Pre-Pre Columbian. Discover, January 2002, vol. 23, no. 1: 64 (http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jan/archaeology)
VÉLEZ A., Judith
:2002 Caral. Tras las huellas de la ciudad más antigua de América. Cosas. 11 enero 2002: 112-115.
ROSS, John F.
:2002 First city in the new world? Smithsonian, August 2002, Volume 33, Number 5: 56-64 (http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2002/august/firstcity.php#related)
BLAKE, Melissa
:2005 Professor disturbed by plagiarism allegations. Winifred Creamer helped discover site on Peru's coast. NortherhStar Online. Monday, February 14, 2005. (http://www.northernstar.info/articles/?id=5343)
MANN, Charles
: 2005 Unraveling Khipu's Secrets. Science 12 August 2005: 1008-1009
ATWOOD, Roger
: 2005 A Monumental Feud. Archaeology. Volume 58 Number 4, July/August 2005
MILLER, Kenneth
:2005 Showdown at the O.K. Caral. Discover. 9.9.2005
201.230.149.98 (talk) 12:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secondary sources 

message: 2001 The America's oldest Pyramids, Cities http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/presskits/wcjo/index.html
2001 Anthropologists Establish Date and Importance of the Americas’ Oldest City (http://www.fieldmuseum.org/museum_info/press/press_hass.htm)
2003 The god on the gourd (http://www.niu.edu/PubAffairs/presskits/gourdgod1/index.html)
2004 Exploring the America's earliest known civilization http://www.niu.edu/pubaffairs/presskits/peru/index.html
2004 New dates confirm beginnings of civilization in South America (http://www.fieldmuseum.org/museum_info/press/press_nortechico.htm)
201.230.81.183 (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Press kits 

message: Proyecto Especial Arqueológico Caral - Supe (Español: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal.htm - English: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal_ing.htm - Deutsch: http://www.caralperu.gob.pe/principal_deu.htm)
Proyecto Arqueológico Norte Chico (http://www.fieldmuseum.org/panc/)
201.230.81.183 (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archaeological projects 

message: 2001, "Ancient Cities in the Americas." Jonathan Haas – The Macarthur Curator of anthropology at the Field Museum. Winifred Creamer – Associate professor of anthropology at Northern Illinois University. Brian Bauer – Associate professor of archeology at the University of Illinois at Chicago (See May 8, 2001) (http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/audio_library/od_ramay01.asp)
2002, The lost Pyramids of Caral. BBC, directed by Martin Taylor. Winifred Creamer. Ken Feder. Jonathan Haas. C.C. Lamberg-Karlovsky. Tom Pozorski. Ruth Shady (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/caraltrans.shtml)
201.230.83.238 (talk) 09:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media 

message: Interestingly, Norte Chico Region is arid; however, it is surrounded by river valleys and the development of widespread irrigation from these water sources is seen as the reason for the emergence of the civilization.
I think there should be a little inclusion on the subject of littoral (e.g. it's in the coastal region, but why is it arid?)
:The page states:
:"The Peruvian littoral appears an "improbable, even aberrant" candidate for the "pristine" development of civilization, compared to other world centers. It is extremely arid, bounded by two rain shadows (caused by the Andes to the east, and the Pacific trade winds to the west). The region, however, is punctuated by more than 50 rivers that carry Andean snowmelt, and the development of widespread irrigation from these water sources is seen as decisive in the emergence of Norte Chico." 
:So I think we're OK. Marskell 08:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coastal but arid 

message: http://thehallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=85  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.23.138 (talk) 01:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Maritime Foundations of Andean Civilization: An Evolving Hypothesis, by Michael E. Moseley 

message: To Hanson. As I see it:
* Literally nothing on Google scholar calls Valdivia a civilization.
* We have sources that unequivocally call Norte Chico the oldest.
* Even if we accept them both as civs, their dates overlap. Marskell 08:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I wouldn't say that there's some definite, bright line separating a culture from a civilization. But I agree that the sources don't really support a comparison in the lead. Marskell (talk) 19:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Valdivia 

message: I changed the spelling of this in line with the name of the journal while fixing some other spelling mistakes, but the original spelling is correct too. No offense. 81.179.249.183 14:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had always thought, without checking, that it was a Brit/Amer English difference, with the less "logical" -aeo being British. Apparently not, so your change is fine. Marskell 14:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archaeology 

message: What abaout removing it?--Ssola (talk) 15:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Indigenous peoples of South America 

message: http://www.athenapub.com/archnew2.htm
http://caralperu.typepad.com/caral_civilization_peru/
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0103/p11s1-woam.html
With hopes that others find their way to this page, here's a suggested list of sections:
* History A general overview of the trajectory of the society.
* Agriculture and food gathering Mainly seafood. No intense agriculture?
**add note on Maize.
* Social organization Barter economy? stratification? lack of warfare?
**add note on first emergence of gov't.
* Architecture
**The 73 paper should not be only one describing Aspero.
* (lack of?) Art and writing
**Flutes
**Shirca-bags
* Impact Relation to Inca. Staff God, Quipu. 
* Tweak "archeologists had been aware."
* Add Shady to religion.
* Add Haas quote in research controversies.
* Two large rooms discovered by Haas.
* Add note on size of largest pyramid at Caral.
* Work in Christian S.M.
* Add map showing extent of occupation and influence as with entries on Moche and Chavín civilisations
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorvikian (talk • contribs) 01:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: To do

message: Para 3 of the 'History and geography' section refers to the "Peruvian littoral'. A search on 'littoral' redirects to 'Littoral zone', which means the part of a sea, lake or river which is close to the shore. What does it mean in this context? Dudley Miles 16:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The article on Littoral zone makes clear that it has a number of different meanings. Personally, I think such a ambiguous word is better not used. Dudley Miles 22:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Littoral 

message: This article badly needs a map, showing the region that NC occupied. If possible, major settlements should be shown. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map, badly needed 

message: Under the economic section... 
"...there are only two confirmed shore sites in the Norte Chico (Aspero and Bandurria) and possibly two more, but cotton fishing nets and domesticated plants have been found up and down the Peruvian coast."
I clicked on Bandurria and came to an article on a musical instrument.  I hope somebody can take care of that.  I have no idea what it's supposed to be.
Thanks.
~~NotWillRiker  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.112.31 (talk) 03:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bandurria 

message: What has happened to its illustrations? There are some on Commons so why not show the "monumental architecture referred to in the text, within the article?
File:PeruCaral24.jpg|"A good picture's worth a thousand words" 
File:PeruCaral18.jpg|Gives an idea of the size and shape of the hewn stones 
File:PeruCaral15.jpg|Monumental building. It's talked about but not shown. 
File:PeruCaral22.jpg|So here's a little picture of bag full of river stones. Just as described in the article. Why isn't the pic there too? 
Amandajm (talk) 02:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to comment on the lack of illustrative material in this article. Interesting, but coul do with more pictures...--MacRusgail (talk) 17:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - more of these should be used to give idea of scale of this civilization and how it was built.Parkwells (talk) 13:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Illustrations?

message: There is no content in the article or source to justify suggestion that caralinos were deep-sea fishermen who harvested whales. Have removed this pic:  There are others directly related to construction and sites that are more important to use.Parkwells (talk) 14:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove pic of whale vertebrae

message: 24.50.151.151 (talk) 14:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for location in arid coast of Peru 

message: "Norte Chico" IS NOT the name of this Civilization. Norte Chico ("Small North") is the colloquial term that we peruvians use to name the mid-north area of the peruvian coast, and it's a extremely vague word. There's not a single peruvian historian that use "Norte Chico" to refer to this civilization. Plus, it's even insulting that you're just ignoring the way we locals call this culture. PLEASE, correct this error, "Norte Chico" is not a academic nor serious geographical category. The proper name is Caral Civilization.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.236.255.110 (talk) 23:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  An issue with the title of the english version of this article 

message: It would be useful if there was some information about the size of these settlements, population wise. Even if archaeologists have widely varying estimates, putting that in would be better than nothing. Were they places of 1,000 people, 10,000, or what? LastDodo (talk) 11:55, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population of settlements 

message: The initial date for the Norte Chico civilization given is in error. 9210 BCE is the date for the first evidence of human habitation of the area. The earliest cities are dated to c. 3500 BCE. Please see: Haas, Jonathan, Winifred Creamer, and Alvaro Ruiz 2004 Dating the Late Archaic occupation of the Norte Chico region in Peru. Nature 4321020-1023.96.50.6.253 (talk) 22:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erroneous Dating