Talk:Furry/Archive 1

message: Re: the recent changes by 67.170.46.54
The teenage mutant ninja turtles, and other creations much like them ARE furries, despite not having actual "fur". The term "furry" doen't have anyhting to do with whether or not the creation has fur, rather that they are a hybrid of the human species with an animal species. TMNT, and things like them, are often known as scalies (in the case of repties, etc).... but they still fall under the unbrella category of "furs"
:I never really thought of using TMNT as an example of a fur, but you're right.  The show is mainstream (or perhaps was) and many people are familiar with it.  I'll be sure whenever asked to give this as an example to steer away from the public image of furries consisting only of fursuiters that try to have sex while fursuiting.  In general, admitting to be a furry to non-furs is a form of social suicide since people shoot your foot--They don't give you a chance to correct their ideas of the culture and its not shooting your own foot if its their preconceptions that's off.--Mylon 23:40, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: TMNT et all

message: It just beat me that this page was too long to be completely section-less. I changed a few terms too... Added the link to fursona and generally grouped the ideas into the proposed subjects. I'm my first non-minor edit on a non-stub article, so please bear with me here. -- Omar "Ekevu" Balbuena 20:06, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added Sections 

message: I've added SectNPOV tags to some of the parts recently contributed by 68.99.136.149. While it seems there is some truth in these parts of the article, it seems rather exxagerating and - since this came from an anonymous user - it may be impossible to ask the original author to provide some additional facts to prove this. I think these sections should be reworked.
 
--Doco
As to the "Sex, Lies and the Internet" section, I don't know why thats under dispute. Its fairly well known FurryMUCK lore. I'm pretty sure someone such as Revar will confirm it.
As to the sections concerning Merlino and ConFurence, there's this article: http://www.crushyiffdestroy.com/show-article.php?file=merlino and in particular, this infamous usenet post: http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=g:thl3726341868d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=32FCD678.39D9%40primenet.com&rnum=1
--User:Changa
Most all of the Mark Merlino article on Crush Yiff Destroy is both bullshit and slander. 
I can't imagine how it could even be cited as a real source of information.
One Example of bad reporting:
"Merlino would later use it as some sort of springboard to infamy - offering, at one point, free admission to his furry conventions to anyone who held an account on the game."
Mark was not stupid enough to give out free admission to CF to furrymuckers. The CF in question did have a "Virtually" tag on the badges to print your online name as that was the new novelty.
Imagine trying to a convention and letting people in for free that had a Muck logon? 
They would have had hardly any money to pay for the hotel as everybody got on the free admission  bandwagon.
I did ask both Mark and Rodney as well as many of the old CF staff people and found that legend to be false.
More inaccurate information:
"In a rare instance of furry self-regulation, Merlino himself would be ousted from control of ConFurence in a wave of fan-political dramaqueenery. The fallout from the Confurence 8 convention disaster prompted many furries to attempt to clean up their act."
This is also Bullshit... 
I was on staff at that convention.
I was there in the middle of Mark stepping down from CF10.  When the convention moved to San Diego the convention has far less people show up, as well as less staff and volunteers.  The lack of help was the last straw and Mark announced that he was going to step down. 
He was not "Ousted" from the flack of CF8.
I suggest not using "Crush Yiff Destroy" as a source of actual information as it is just a slander board that never turns down a good nasty story.
--User:Calbeck:
I should point out right here and now that I am the "anonymous user".  My apologies, but since I expected that this would be my one and only Wiki article, I did not feel that getting an account was necessary.  I can understand how some would feel leery about an unknown person writing such a purportedly authoritative article, however, and so I apologize for not at least identifying myself in the text.  My real name is Scott Malcomson.
That said, the section on Merlino and ConFurence comes from direct experience.  I attended CF beginning with #4 --- indeed, I was the infamous "mad bomber" whose costume was used as pretext by a fundamentalist Christian security chief to try and run the convention out of the Red Lion hotel in Costa Mesa.  I continued to attend ConFurence (though not as a costumer, having learned my lesson on that score), missing only one or two instances right up to the end.  I also attended San Diego Comic Con and other conventions with a furry presence in California, as well as launching my own small and short-lived furrycon (ZonieCon) which ran for several years before internal politics led to its demise.
I've been a furfan for some twelve years now, and am a historian at heart, so I picked up lore and tidbits here and there, talking to various artists, writers and fans over the years.  I do not pass on simple gossip, however.  If it has not been verified by a reliable source, or by myself directly, I consider it an "interesting tale" but not "history".
Regarding Merlino's marketing of ConFurence to the gay community through specialty magazines, this was confirmed at ConDorCon in the mid-'90s when furry artist Lia Graf directly faced down Mr. Merlino at a convention panel (where I was in attendance) and asked him if he had been doing this.  He admitted to the action and said he felt that sexual diversity would do the fandom good.
I have also personally witnessed the ConFurence booth pressing forward with "sexual diversity" as its main marketing ploy at various San Diego Comic Cons, as well as at VegasCon.  In all cases where I was witness, spooge art was in high profile --- in fact, it was virtually all there was to see.  At VegasCon in particular, the main attraction was a portfolio of Terrie Smith's porn prints, of which a pony jacking off in the snow while on his back was pretty much the standard.  While perusing the tome, a fellow furry began singing "He's a Well-Hung Plowboy" and wouldn't shut up.  Indeed, he raised his voice as people passed, some clearly trying to avoid him.  He turned out to be booth staff.
Given this record of marketing spooge as the fandom's main attraction and reason for a convention, it should not be surprising that a large percentage of new attendees would be persons seeking similar material and a sex-oriented convention.  From my experience in attending CF, the percentage of attendees who had come looking for a sexual experience skyrocketed between CF4 and CF8, and the number of people who were interested in displaying their sexual fetishes in public venues likewise increased.
This increase resulted in friction between those who considered the fandom a "lifestyle" and those who considered it a hobby, the latter feeling more and more crowded by people whose lack of sexual inhibitions often crossed the line in inappropriate ways.  Many artists and writers whose skills founded and expanded the early fandom have left now because they do not want to be associated with people who cannot seem to keep their sex lives to themselves.  Others maintain contact but keep themselves distant from all but a few close friends.  The "free love" mentality prevalent in much of the fandom has very much been a divisive factor as a result.
Regarding CYD: it was founded by people who have a very personal grudge against certain persons in the fandom, and the site is heavily used to advance those grudges. For example, CYD attacks artist Mitchell Beiro for his faux marriage to Minerva Mink at one ConFurence.
CYD treats the entire event as though it had been deadly serious.  Yet neither Mitchell nor anyone else in attendance took it seriously at all.  The entire thing was one long comedy skit.  I should know, I was the priest. Amongst other things I carried to the podium were a bottle that I took "hits" off of for comedic effect.  My clerical collar was a piece of tissue paper folded and tucked into my trenchcoat neck.  Pointing this out to the CYD folks resulted in no change to the article at all...they are not interested in accuracy, though they like to claim otherwise on a frequent basis.
It is also true that Mark Merlino stepped down as a matter of a personal decision and not due to any fannish flack from CF8.  In fact, much of that flack had been in evidence at prior conventions, and made no impact on CF's operations.  Nor was CF8 Mark's last, as noted by Changa.  CYD's article is primarily composed of rumormongering that its writer never bothered to confirm before giving full credence.
:The author of the Confurence section should back up his statements better. For instance, for "CF staff were promoting the convention in specialized magazines aimed at the gay community of California" should provide the publication, date, and page number. For other events, while it wouldn't be absolute proof, there should be links to con reports, journal entries, etc, dated to that time period available. Otherwise, it may fall under original research. If it is kept, the bulk of the Confurence material should be moved to the Confurence page. RainR 05:00, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with RainR, above. Almost half the article is about Confurence at this point; it really ought to be moved to its own page.  —Xydexx 20:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV, again

message: Give me one good reason why you removed the Usagi Yojimbo image considering you didn't bother to when you removed it.  Usagi Yojimbo is one of the most successful furry characters in the subgenre's history and it has a definite place in this article since I used it as a prime example of one of Furry fiction's favourite motifs. 
-Kchishol
Usagi Yojimbo should be included, as Usagi Yojimbo's creator Stan Sakai was Guest Of Honor at Anthrocon in 2004. He said it was one of the best conventions he's attended in years. (Uncle Kage posted Mr. Sakai's report he wrote for the Comic Arts Professional Society here.) —Xydexx
I should add that Stan Sakai has also been a longtime contributor to furry fandom's original and still-ongoing fanzine: Rowrbrazzle. About the time he began working on Sergio Aragones' "Groo the Wanderer" as inker in the late '80s, Stan first published his Usagi stories in "Critters", at the time the premiere furry anthology comic, especially catering to the newly-emergent fandom and its best talent.  He also published his Nilsson Groundthumper tales through the same venue.  In fact, it's safe to say that without furry fandom's initial support for Usagi, it would not have been picked up by Mirage and later Dark Horse for publication.  As it was, Stan's furry background gave him a built-in and provable readership numbering in the thousands which he could effectively take to the bank. --- Calbeck
Apparently, thanks to Quadell, I can't restore the image so I have to make do with a book cover to partially undue a senseless change he does not have the guts to defend. --- kchishol1970
:Dude. If you want to talk to me, leave me a message on my talk page. Furry isn't on my watch list. And please refrain from making personal attacks. I really wasn't trying to annoy anyone here.
:The image was deleted (properly) because it had no source information and no license information. We can't use images that are copyright violations. Someone listed the image on Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images over a month ago, and no one found the image source. After an image has been listed there for thirty days, it's Wikipedia policy to delete it. I've deleted hundreds of copyright-violation images listed there over the past week or so. This was just one of them.
:If you can find the image, you can re-upload it. Please include a proper image copyright tag and source information, so it won't be relisted on Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images. If you can't find it, then it's certainly a violation, and we shouldn't have been using it anyway. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 16:27, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
:: What Quadell said, plus I'll note that the deletion was hardly hasty, as the image was first tagged as unverified back in February of 2004. See articles such as Wikipedia:Images, Wikipedia:Copyrights and Wikipedia:Image copyright tags if you're unfamiliar with Wikipedia image use policies. Whatever one may personally think about the current copyright laws, understand that Wikipedia needs to make a good faith attempt to stay within the law in order to continue to exist. There is a lot we can make use of under fair use in context. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 18:04, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needless Image removal 

message: I just attempted to iNPOVise on the reference to CSI which was emotionally charged. It's not great but it's better than nothing. Could anyone look up this episode and provide more useful details on exactly why it's seen as ill-researched? That could help the NPOV aspect. --ThomasWinwood 02:03, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
:The CSI writers overexaggerated the sexual aspects of the fandom in an effort to provide more titillating viewing for prime time. The specifics can be found at http://www.tigerden.com/infopage/furry/csi.html. –Xydexx 03:37, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CSI reference 

message: Neutrality issues aside, could we get some of the content of this page moved to furry fandom and yiff, respectively?  No more than a paragraph each is needed in this article; the article should just describe the meaning of the adjective and noun, not descriptions of every bone the vandal had to pick when he heard the word 'furry'.  Almafeta 12:09, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization