Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 45

message: I hope everyone has calmed down after the rather passionate argument about who started WWII a while back. I will restate my position, and hopefully the discussion will take on a more civilized, academic tone and historical accuracy will triumph.
1) This shouldn't matter to anyone because it doesn't affect the strength of my arguments, but just so my opponents know - I do not sympathize with Hitler and I don't read Main Kampf before bedtime. I think that he brainwashed Germans and that he was a cretin for believing in the Jewish Conspiracy. The reason I participate in this argument is that the blind demonization of the Nazis annoys me. "There is no pure good and pure evil, only shades of gray, but there were evil Nazis sixty years ago". Malarkey.
I am just saying this so that the witch hunt can end and people drop their ridiculous accusations.
2) Wars between countries begin as a process. They begin because of some underlying conflict, in case of WWII - because of a power dispute. Germany wanted more power (more land), England and France wanted to keep Germany weak. Those who sympathize with the Allies will probably paraphrase that as "The Allies were threatened by Germany's aggresive foreign policy so they responded by declaring war on Germany". However, if you don't arbitrarily assign the countries of the Alliance altruistic personalities, and stop claiming that they had no geopolitical/power ambitions of their own (not something colonialism testifies in favor of) and that they were merely "responding" to Germany's policy, you arrive back at the causes of war that I've stated. 
3) Just because you consider one of the sides to be wrong, evil, etc., does not make it guilty of starting WWII. Every country has instituted policies responsible for horrible attrocities and demonizing solely the German government is ridiculous. 
4) MSN Encarta defines "pretext" as "[a] made-up excuse: a misleading or untrue reason given for doing something in an attempt to conceal the real reason". Saying that the Allies started the war against Germany because mean, bad Germany invaded poor Poland is just stating the pretext written in the history books by the victors.
Currently, the article is heavily anti-German and pro-Ally, and completely ignores the four points above. I suggest we change that for the sake of historical accuracy. The intro, in particular, is extremely biased, saying that Germany triggered the war. 
"Hitler pursued an aggressive foreign policy with the intention of expanding German Lebensraum ("living space"), which triggered World War II when Germany invaded Poland."
Hitler... triggered WWII. That's what you get out of the intro. If the purpose of this article is to provide an accurate description of the past and not to brainwash the reader into the politically correct views of its authors, then that needs to be changed. 
P.S.
I forgot my password, but I think you all remember me anyway.
Xanon
:There is always a measure of cynicism amongst the leaders and instigators of Great-Power foreign policy, and it seems to me that you are partly just picking up on that Xanon. I don't agree that the current article as you put it is heavily "heavily anti-German and pro-Ally" although (perhaps inevitably given the subject material) it does not portray Hitler as a decent chap, interested in vegetarianism and dogs, who got misled into accidentally tripping over a whole bunch of other countries and planning mass-murder and world-empire. :-) There is however a good and valid academic approach which treats Nazi Germany as just another competing world-power, or wannabbe world-power, not different or worse than for example the USSR under Stalin and very much involved in typical great-power moves. Where this thesis falls down is in the mass campaigns of anti-semitic extermination which were never a key plank of great power politics. We could also argue that Hitler was a uniquely 20th Century phenomenon, an ideologue and demagogue leading a campaign against perceived racial and political enemies both at home and abroad, rather than a mere national politician.
:I think you may also have a valid point about the origins of Hitler's foreign policy being over-simplistically described in this article. It certainly is the case that from a very early stage his primary ideological goal was to destroy communism (bolshevism as he put it) and this goal happened to co-incide with the interests of big business, a number of western powers, a class of German aristocrats and generals and others. This created the impetus for war planning, annexation of neighbouring countries and eventually led to World War 2. It was also intermingled with the profound national feelings of failure that Germans felt following the perceived "sell-out" at Versailles. The article could explain these better without descending into blatant POV. MarkThomas 10:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is ridiculous. The real or alleged crimes of other nations in other times have absolutely no relevance to WW2. I happen to believe that none of them even remotely compare to what the Nazis did, but that's beside the point. Paul B 12:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: As far as I am aware everyone objects. I don't think you have had a single supporter in the past. Your arguments are totally illogical since you seem to think that counties accummlate merit or demerit points over history! The comparison of WW2 allies to "murderers" is perverse. Paul B 07:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I like how you say "let's discuss the changes first", when you already made the change. If you truly cared about consensus, you would have followed your own words. --Golbez 07:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Causes of  WWII 

message: Xanon, this is the last time i will respond to your comments because you are not only saying completely illogical things but are also obviously supportive of Nazi ideas like sending people to KZs. But it is important that your comments don't stand here unchallenged and shock future visitors. If you make any similar comments in the future, i will answer by simply adding a link to this discussion instead of responding. And in case your comments were just due to ignorance of basic things concerning national and international laws, let me point out that putting someone in jail for a crime after due legal process is from a legal point of view the exact opposite of sending someone to a KZ. But perhaps you are also ignorant of this basis of international law: KZs are against several international conventions and agreements that override all national laws. And if you continue to express such childishly veiled personal attacks as above, i will ask an administrator to ban you. But back to the article and editing:
Clearly, you have no idea what a descriptive adjective is. If "racial hygiene" is inhumane according to an objective description of "racial hygiene" and the definition of the word "inhumane" in all dictionaries, it is clearly objective and scientific to use it in talking about racial hygiene. I'm pretty sure it was not an accident but an attempt to be sly that made you claim i'd used the adjective to describe the organised killings as inhumane. That all organised killing is inhumane is so obvious that "inhumane organised killing" would be a tautology and a sign of a sick mind or of elementary school language skills. The expression "racial hygiene" on the other hand has possible positive connotations or at least associations in the minds of readers due to the positive basic meaning of the word "hygiene"; it therefore needs the addition of the descriptive adjective "inhumane".
[Side comment: One advantage of seeing posts by Nazi sympathisers is that one rediscovers old newspeak examples that one doesn't notice anymore. I will go to the racial hygiene page and start a discussion about whether any attempts have been made by historians and other scientists and doctors to replace this term with one that is less biased in favor of these insane and unscientific misunderstandings of evolution that are not a kind of "hygiene" but an excuse for racism. Hitler knew that what he was doing was disapproved of by most Germans; otherwise there would not have been a need for the extreme secrecy about mass killings and no need to not call "racial hygiene" what it really was, "extermination of groups of people that Hitler didn't like". (The expression "Nazi eugenics" is no solution because most people don't know what "eugenics" means and due to the positive connotations of "eugenics".)]
You have not presented a single fact that is missing in the article nor presented a single non-fact that needs to be removed, thereby your comment is as illogical and childish as the rest of your posts.
There is no record in the history of any posts by anyone being erased by anyone. Sounds like you may be paranoid and need help with that medical condition. And please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. No need to write your name out. --Espoo 13:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's unlikely that anyone is erasing your posts without leaving a record. It's possible that you have accidentally pressed "show preview" rather than "save page". Otherwise you may not have waited long enough after clicking. Saving does not happen immediately. Paul B 15:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to Xanon 

message: Why was Bavarian Soviet Republic (Munich Soviet Republic) edited out by Str1977, and also without an edit summary? --Espoo 06:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Munich Soviet Republic]] 

message: This sentence in the World War 1 section seems oddly out of place...
Some scholars, including Lucy Dawidowicz,[5] argue that an intention to mass murder Europe's Jews was fully formed in Hitler's mind, though he probably hadn't thought through how it could be done.
Is it meant to refer to his formation of the genocide being something he came upon during the first world war? Or perhaps it just got left there after many edits? MarkThomas 12:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dawidowicz takes an extreme "intentionalist" view: that as early as 1918 or 1919 Hitler had a plan, or at least a dream, to kill all Jews if he got the chance and that this aspiration was always a Nazi aim. Paul B 13:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Xanon seems to see no difference between wishing people you don't like would go away and planning to murder them all. How many of us have thought that if we became dictators we would round up every criminal and gas them all to death? On the issue of the sentence in question. I tried to integrate it. It's there because it's about Hitler's state of mind at the end of WWI. Paul B 19:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World War 1 sentence 

message: What is the note "An event in this article is a January 30 selected anniversary. (may be in HTML comment)" on the top of the page about. It contains a red link and the "MediaWiki" link is empty. Can someone please explain whether is just a left over? Str1977 (smile back) 09:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. --Golbez 09:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Golbez, but actually I was looking for an explanation on what this note is all about. Cheers, Str1977 (smile back) 12:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So.. did you click it to see what it is? I don't think it's a leftover. I could be wrong. --Golbez 20:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: January 30 selected anniversary

message: :Category:German World War I people Octopus-Hands 01:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WWI People

message: I think that portrayals and the taboo of association with Hitler should be addressed in the article. Especially since the article fails to take into consideration the perception of Hitler in Eastern countries such as India, China, and Japan. For example, an Indian restaurant owner opened a Nazi-themed restaurant, since such taboos are not widespread, and swastikas are rather innocuous in Indian culture. Japanese manga sometimes features characters dressing as Hitler, such as in Fooly Cooly. I think this should be considered somewhere. Angrynight 06:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be mistaken since Indian restaurants might just have their religious symbol displayed, which happens to be the same as the Nazi sign.
===Parody by Walter Moers ===
In Germany there's a disput on the Hitler-comic-parody (music-video) by W.Moers called "The Bonker" (Paradoy on Downfall (film)). The priced film (Sondermann 2006 at Frankfurt Book Fair) is a part of the third part of a trilogy on Hitler by Moers and a blockbuster on german youtbube: german, german subtitles, german, english subtitles (2), english. Interessting on how germans handle with Hitler. -- Cherubino 09:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the link - german youtube is english youtube! There's a comment following the video: "Austrians ... can be so fucking stupid". And what's with the bottle of wine? I thought he only indulged occasionally.--Shtove 19:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The translated song is not as close to the original than the subtiteled one (due to poetic license and rimes), so read the subtitles. I don't know how much alcohol flowed like water in the last days in the Führerbunker, and how much sex there was. Hitlers generals and advisors addicted to alcohol since they had not absconded yet. It's not wine, it's Chantré, a german brandy. Yes Hitler did not drink, he had a increasing aversion to meat, alc und nicotin. But as this reggae-song is a parody on the film Downfall you probably have to watch the film to understand the parody. There is of course only one youtube, but there are different favorites by "exolingual" youtubers. -- 172.179.127.167 22:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portrayals, cartoons & parody 

message: In Germany there's a disput on the Hitler-comic-parody (music-video) by W.Moers called "The Bonker" (Paradoy on Downfall (film)). The priced film (Sondermann 2006 at Frankfurt Book Fair) is a part of the third part of a trilogy on Hitler by Moers and a blockbuster on german youtbube: german, german subtitles, german, english subtitles (2), english. Interessting on how germans handle with Hitler. -- Cherubino 09:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link - german youtube is english youtube! There's a comment following the video: "Austrians ... can be so fucking stupid". And what's with the bottle of wine? I thought he only indulged occasionally.--Shtove 19:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The translated song is not as close to the original than the subtiteled one (due to poetic license and rimes), so read the subtitles. I don't know how much alcohol flowed like water in the last days in the Führerbunker, and how much sex there was. Hitlers generals and advisors addicted to alcohol since they had not absconded yet. It's not wine, it's Chantré, a german brandy. Yes Hitler did not drink, he had a increasing aversion to meat, alc und nicotin. But as this reggae-song is a parody on the film Downfall you probably have to watch the film to understand the parody. There is of course only one youtube, but there are different favorites by "exolingual" youtubers. -- 172.179.127.167 22:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parody by [[Walter Moers]] 

message: I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information.  I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list.  Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article.  Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here.  Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cultural depictions of Adolf Hitler]] 

message: Well? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.80.107.170 (talk • contribs) .
:I've never seen any sources that indicate he has one. Justin Eiler 04:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle name? 

message: Hi,
I've just added merge tags to Personal standard for Adolf Hitler, Adolf Hitler's personal standard and Führerstandarte. The first two are almost identical, the third is a stub. Help from anyone with expertise in the subject is welcomed. Dr pda 23:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea--I'm currently working on it. Justin Eiler 00:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Merge completed. :) Justin Eiler 04:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adolf Hitler's personal standard 

message: Currently this article states the following:
:Since the defeat of Germany in World War II, Hitler, the Nazi Party and the results of Nazism have been regarded in most of the world as synonymous with evil. Historical and cultural portrayals of Hitler in the west are, by virtually universal consensus, condemnatory.
In an encyclopedia that takes great pains to not take a particular stance or make judgments, this a pretty bold judgment. It is framed in such a way as to dodge actually making a claim about Hitler being evil, but it makes only token concession to Hitler apologists. For such a high-profile page to have a statement like that must have been the result of a great deal of argument and discussion. But I think think the reason that this statement remains is because it is, indeed, one of the most salient facts about Adolf Hitler—he is universally condemned and synonymous with evil. If you have to teach a child just one thing to know about Adolf Hitler, it's not that he was the leader of Germany during World War II, or that he was the leader of the Nazis. You would say to the child, "Hitler was a bad guy."
If I come upon this article, I should get a brief overview of who this person was and what his significance is from the introductory section. Currently, the introduction doesn't reference the fact that everyone thinks he was evil and is universally condemned. It does list a number of evil things he did, hinting to the reader that he probably wasn't a real nice guy. But why do I have to read 2/3 of the way through a 91 KB article to have the very simple fact pointed out to me? Do we really want to give our readers the impression that we think that Hitler's place in the modern conscious as a universal symbol of evil is only a ancillary aspect of his legacy? I think at least an abbreviated version of this statement should be included in the introduction. Nohat 07:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since my suggestion drew no reply, I assumed it is uncontroversial and have added a short sentence to the end of the introduction. Nohat 06:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't feel very strongly about it, but according to WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves we really shouldn't be making moralistic observations about people. Paul B 14:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I definitely considered this, but I think it is important to point out that in fact we aren't making moralistic observations, but are making (nonmoralistic, neutral) observations about most of the world's having made moralistic observations. Nohat 22:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salience 

message: As the claim that Hitler is homosexual is often repeated by homophobes, those of whom who advance this view rightly should be considered Holocaust revisionists, is pseudo-history, dishonest disinformation, the encyclopedia has no need to even mention it. People like Lothar Machtan and the writers of The Pink Swastika have a hidden agenda against homosexuals, alleging these things about the Nazis not because they hate Nazis but because they hate homosexuals. Ironically, by creating the "gay Nazi" myth, they are repeating the Nazi tactic of portraying Jewry as conspiratorial and evil dangers, except the group being targeted for conspiracy theories is not Jews, but homosexuals. --Revolución hablar ver 11:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Look,  you may not like the theory, but it exists. I think it's pretty dumb too. But we can't assume that it derives from an anti-gay agenda. Contributors here have even accused people who deny the theory of being homophobic! It certainly has nothing to do with "holocaust revisionism". Paul B 12:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I must agree with what Paul wrote. Some proponents of this theory might be homophobes or (something dubbed with that word by others), while other might not. Unless someone clearly voices his views you shouldn't speculate on this. In Machtan's case I think the motive is much more commercial. To make things clear, I think that theory rubbish and don't think it deserves a lot of treatment but under the WP guidelines it deserves a brief mentioning. And it is not en par with holocaust deniers (that have only assumed the mantle of revisionism). Str1977 (smile back) 14:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanation of my edit in Sexuality subsection

message: While everyone has maligned Hitler, no one has bothered to highlight his patriotism and love for Germany.--Darrendeng 06:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hilter's patriotism 

message: How come there is no mentioning of Hitler's reading preferences, particulary Machiavelli. 84.72.80.179 12:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Machiavelli 

message: I have twice now had to change a reference to the Treaty of Versailles being imposed by the 'Entente.'  It was not for the simple reason that the Entente-which strictly speaking refers to the Triple Entente between Britain, France and Russia of 1907-ceased to exist with the Russian revolution.  The correct term used by the victors was the 'Allied and Associate Powers', the US being the 'associate' because Wilson did not want to be linked to treaties concluded prior to American entry to the war.  It may be a small point, but in terms of simple historical accuracy the use of Entente is wrong. 
White Guard 22:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Allies is not wrong, and "Allied and Associate Powers" was, indeed, the term officially used.  I don't like using "Entente" to include powers that were never in the Entente like the United States and Italy. john k 22:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am certainly open to alternatives, but to simply put Allies all the time is not to my liking, especially given that the mere word still has a general meaning. Str1977 (smile back) 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: WHite Guard, John didn't say that Entente is "simply wrong" - it is not simply wrong, though other terms might be better. The term was used in Germany at least until the 1930s. "Allies" I oppose because of its potential to be misread. "Allies and Associate Powers" is too long for our purpose. "Neutrality" is no issue here at all. Str1977 (smile back) 22:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: No doubt about that ... and clarity as well. Str1977 (smile back) 23:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That would suit me fine. Guard? Str1977 (smile back) 08:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entente or Allies 

message: The page claims to link to an annotated bibliography, but in fact the "list of Hitler books" isn't annotated.  Such annotations would be quite helpful, but in the meantime, shouldn't the ref be changed to just "bibliography"?
--Andersonblog 01:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Annotated Bibliography"

message: I removed the following sentences that succeeded the statement that Hitler was never excommunicated. 
:"This is significant when one reads claims that he persecuted Catholics, as well as Jews. If he had done so, he would have been excommunicated, and the entire nation could have been placed under interdict. This never happened."
The reasons why I removed is because 
:1. this section needs to be a summary of Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs and it is not 
:2. It is weasely unattributed opinion 
:3. erroneous, because the Einsatzgruppen did persecute Catholic clergy during the Invasion of Poland See e.g. here http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/PEOPLE/USHMMPOL.HTM not a perfectly reputable source but still. The einsatzgruppen were not personally managed by Hitler but they were quite close to the top of the hierarchy (i.e. Hitler)
Andries 21:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion