Talk:Irenaean theodicy

message: A good deal of material has been added since the last GA nomination! That's really excellent. A few problems jump out at me.
* We probably can't use the book cover for Brothers Karamazov here, since it's a non-free copyrighted cover, and we can only use non-free images under a very strict set of circumstances. Perhaps it can be replaced by one of the free images of Dostoevsky. Anyway, the caption is wrong -- Dewi Zephaniah Phillips is totally separate from the book. 
* I think it would be neat to have a related quote from the Ivan character (in Brothers Karamazov) here, but the source used doesn't specify where Ivan's speech is found in the book, and it gives the wrong year for the novel anyway. None of our quotes from Dostoevsky seem related, and the book itself is much too large to skim through. But if you happen to find an actual quote from Ivan in The Brothers Karamazov about suffering and love, it would be great to use it. In fact, having several quote boxes would be a nice feature in this article.
I'll look more at it later. Thanks for your improvements! – Quadell (talk) 14:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article could also benefit from a copyedit, as well as a review of sources. What makes ref 1 ([www.philosophyonline.co.uk/pages/irenaean.htm]) or ref 27 () reliable? /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In regards to the sources... I'm not sure about philosophyonline, to be honest. It is a self-published source; however, the guidelines on self-published sources suggests that a self-published source may be reliable if the person is an expert in their field and their work has been published by a reliable, third-party publisher. The website is run by Gareth Southwell (see here), who has had this, this and this published. The guidelines suggest that the publications need to be in the relevant field and, though they are directly about the problem of evil, they are about philosophy and the philosophy of religion. As for Scandalon, you're probably right - I do not believe that to be a reliable source. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 19:01, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analysis of recent changes 

message: I removed the following sentence from the end of the first paragraph because it did not fit the reading flow—it was not a good example of high quality writing.
*
I looked for another part of the lead section to reinsert this sentence but I came up empty. The first problem is that Hick should be introduced as establishing the high importance of Irenaeus to the topic. That is, Hick should be introduced fully before the reader is told about his critics. The second problem is that Irenaeus must be discussed before we hear of "some scholars" who reject him. Irenaeus shows up in the second paragraph, not the first. Even so, the sentence did not seem to fit in the second paragraph without making some adjustments.
The second paragraph may be a suitable place for this sentence, with some work, or perhaps the third paragraph. Some of the critical scholars are actually named in the third paragraph of the lead section. Perhaps one of these scholars can be identified as disapproving of the "unsustainable" adoption by Hick. Binksternet (talk) 17:45, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - I had intended to remove that but must have forgotten (or perhaps it was added again). Initially it was added to the lead with a link to a decent source. I used the source to write the section on Origen and added a sentence on Origen into the lead, which included . I think that's less weaselly, more neutral, and more informative; the sentence you removed can stay out IMO. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 22:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Brilliant. Attributing Mark Scott is an excellent possibility. Binksternet (talk) 23:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some scholars 

message: French theologian Edmond de Pressensé wrote in 1873 about Heresy and Christian Doctrine. He describes how Ireneaus laid out the way that goodness is a gift from God but that evil was created when Eve listened to the serpent and was both disobedient and unbelieving. This is exactly the Hick thesis: that God was not the originator of evil. (Note that the Google book is attributed on its cover to "Mme E. de Pressensé" who would be "Madame E. de Pressensé" – the wife of Edmond de Pressensé, a woman who was known before marriage as Elise Françoise Louise du Plessis-Gouret, herself a woman of letters. Inside the book it is clear that the husband wrote the original.)
German theologian Adolf von Harnack published in 1907's The History of Dogma his thoughts on Origen, Irenaeus and theodicy. He wrote that Origen was the first to say that evil was not from God. See the long footnote on pages 343–344.
In 1965, in parallel to but separate from John Hick, American theologian Richard Alfred Norris Jr published his thoughts about the problem of evil, discussing the issue on pages 92–98 of his God and World in Early Christian Theology, published by Seabury Press. Norris says that Irenaeus defined evil as a development in the world that God made, but that evil was not made by God. He says on page 144 that Origen "insists" that evil is not a creation of God nor is it independent of God. Binksternet (talk) 18:57, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible sources 

message: Just to clarify- I'm not a philosopher of religion, though I am familiar with the Irenaean theodicy and Hick's work. J Milburn (talk) 19:27, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-FAC peer review 

message: The article lists Leibniz's theodicy as Irenaean according to John Hick. This is incorrect, as Hick sees Leibniz firmly in the Augustinian-Thomist tradition. In Hick's "Evil and the God of Love" the section on "Eighteenth-Century 'Optimism', which includes a chapter on "Leibniz's 'Theodicy'", is located in Part II 'The Augustinian Type of Theodicy'. While there are some obvious differences between Augustine and Leibniz, Hick concludes that "Leibniz stands within the broad Augustinian tradition" . It is obviously correct that Leibniz sees the world as "the best of all possible worlds" rather than merely a world gone wrong but Leibniz's idea of "best" includes the Neo-Platonist and Augustinian principle of plentitude and the Felix Culpa – so it is the best world in the sense that the fallenness of the world is the best that could have happened, which is again broadly Augustinian.  The entire section on Leibniz should be removed from this article, since it does not belong here. Since "the best of all possible worlds" is not an Irenaean but an Augustinian (or specifically a Thomist) idea, I am not convinced that Plantinga should be in the article either. But I am no expert on Plantinga, so I might be wrong. In any case, if Plantinga belongs here, the reason why he does should be better explained.NelePollatschek (talk) 17:01, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leibniz presents an Augustinian and NOT an Irenaean Theodicy according to John Hick