Talk:Christianity/Archive 3

message: Here is another sentence I would like a consensus on prior to changing:
"However, the precise significance of Jesus' sacrifice, and the scope and meaning of the words "death" and "paradise" are in dispute between the various Christian denominations."
I recognize that different denominations have different views of HOW Jesus’ death redeemed us, so I have no problems with that part of the sentence. However I want to see a list of sects/denominations that dispute the "scope and meaning" of the word “death.” And I feel that “Heaven” should be used in place of “Paradise,” if that portion of the sentence is kept at all. Very little is known of Heaven (correct me if I am wrong, cite verses please) and references to disputes on different beliefs by different denominations should probably not be referenced here. The belief in eternal life with God in a perfect world is (I believe) a universally accepted Christian doctrine.  David 19:32, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "Paradise" is a more correct rendering of the Orthodox flavor on the matter, although "Heaven" is accepted as an adequate substitute.  Our remembrance of the dead asks that God make us each a "citizen of Paradise", not a "citizen of Heaven".  In part, this is because "the heavens" and "Heaven" are not considered as closely synonymous with the state of Salvation as is "Paradise".  Dogface 16:59, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Denominational Beliefs

message: I was looking to link to Athleta Christi, but I can't find an article on it. It seems to be the same as Miles Christi and Soldier of Christ so until anyone is willing to write an article on this title, I'm redirecting them to Christianity. The only articles to mention these titles seemed to be Ngô Ðình Thuc Pierre Martin, Confirmation (sacrament) and Gjergj Kastriot Skanderbeg.  Dori 06:11, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Athleta Christi and other links

message: I think a specific subheading addressing the "Moral Decay in the Churches" is in order, which would help the reader to understand the reduction of church attendance. I can bring information to bear from sources such as "The Empty Church" by Thomas C. Reeves, as well as other documents of import.
What do you think? -- Corey 20:18, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: It should probably go in a more specific article about Christianity in a geographic area, or in particular denominations or groups of denominations. Unless your sources really cover the full gamut of reasons, as well as reasons for the rise in church attendance in some areas/denominations/etc. for various reasons. Wesley 04:39, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Moral decay

message: What is that funny dotted line in the chart, that seems to imply there is some other "protestant" church from the first century ? (That doesn't sound like it makes any sense, so it ought to at least be explained, no ?)
: There are some churches which claim not to descend from any other church, but who are traceable historically through Protestantism.  That funny line indicates their belief that they descend directly from the first century church, with nothing in-between.  They are not "protestants", they are a new "restoration".  See Restorationism, and Restoration (Mormonism) Mkmcconn 06:42, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's a comment to that effect on the chart, just below "Restorationism", but perhaps it could be moved to a position above the dotted line itself? That might make it clearer what the line represents. Unless anyone objects, I'll see if I can change that. -- Vardion 06:49, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've just uploaded a modified version. However, since there was a lot of anti-aliasing in the original file, I ended up remaking it, so it would be easier to edit in future. Just as an experiment, I also tried putting in a bit of colour - if people don't like it, I can undo it. -- Vardion 08:08, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  Color is good.  We keep forgetting to use the greater possibilities of this medium.  I do a lot of work creating figures for print media.  My lab is charged for all color graphics.  So I get into the "avoid color at any cost" mindset. Dogface 04:22, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like the color very much, but I'll be that not all monitors or color settings will do a good job of displaying the light green.  Could a different hue be chosen instead? Mkmcconn 04:50, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  I hadn't considered that, actually. Thanks. But since I don't know a lot about how colours will display, what exactly should I change? Just make the green darker? Or is it a matter of keeping to generally accepted standard brightnesses, rather than somewhere in between? -- Vardion 00:24, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text:  I like the chart a lot. It's much clearer and easier to read, and seems reasonably accurate for the view from 50,000 feet. I don't recall it showing the line from Eastern Orthodoxy to the Eastern rites of Roman Catholicism before, but that seems about right. It might be nice to put a date or century with that break as well, if someone can find out when that was. Wesley 17:55, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text:  That's a very thorny question.  It can refer to several events.  The Council of Florence (1438) ended up creating "Byzantine Catholics" (Albanian, Dalmatian, Greek-speaking Italian).  The Union of Brest-Litovsk (1596) created "Greek Catholics" (Ukrainian).  The Uzhorod Agreement (1646) created the "Byzantine Catholic Church" (Slovakian).  In 1908, the "Russian Byzantine Catholics" left the Orthodox Church and entered communion with Rome.  Now, when we get to Croats, all bets are off--it entirely depends on who you ask.  Either they have always been in communion with Rome or they entered into communion at some time between the "union" of Croatia and Hungary (1102) and its eventual re-emergence as part of Yugoslavia (1918).  Dogface 21:48, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  unexplained dotted line in chart ? 

message: Hi, I have another question on the first paragraph. It says
:According to a 1993 estimate, Christianity was the world's most widely accepted religion, with 2.1 billion adherents (1 billion Catholics, 500 million Protestants, 240 million Orthodox and 275 million others), followed by Islam with 1.1 billion and Hinduism with 1.05 billion. 
Other articles and cencuses claim the Eastern Orthodox had 3 times population than all of Protestants.  And for clarification the source of 1993 estimate is expected IMO. KIZU 07:58, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  population 

message: I'm kind of amazed there's no description in here of Christian worship.  Seems like a complete article on Christianity would have a general overview of what happens at a church service.  I realize it's quite different for all the different forms of Christianity, but it does bear mentioning and can be covered in general with specifics left to the pages of specific Christian traditions.
Is there a page on Christian worship I've missed somewhere? Jdavidb 15:23, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there's one exactly about worship. We do have worship which at present talks mostly about Christian worship but links to other kinds as well, and at some point should be developed to include worship in other religions. There are also Divine Liturgy, Mass (liturgy), prayer, hymn, praise song, Psalms, Eucharist, The Lord's Supper, and probably others. Several of these have links to other related articles. Several of these could use some help. Covering all of them could be tough. Hope this partial list helps. Wesley 05:14, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worship 

message: I have removed the section on Islam and Christianity. While I agree that a section on the relationship between the two religions is needed, the text currently there is patent nonsense, and quite offensive to Eastern Orthodox Christians who suffered under Islamic domination for centuries. The two religions are not even remotely close, there are no EOx clergy seeing union with Muslims (and if there are, who and where are they? Who are their bishops?), and there is absolutely zero chance of the EOx merging with Islam. YBeayf 16:04, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion is that the problems of relationship between Christianity and Judaism are special, and arguably is a more appropriate topic than "Christianity and Islam".  Mkmcconn 03:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam and Christianity 

message: Perhaps the most significant change for them was total or effective separation of Church and State, thus ending the state-sponsored Christianity that existed in so many European countries.
I thought a big difference between the US and Europe was that the separation of church and state in the former but not in most European countries.  Many have asserted that this very separation actually created religions in the US that were more focussed on their own membership and growth, resulting in a more religious population in the US.  Should so many European countries be changed to the US? NealMcB 03:42, 2004 May 10 (UTC)
While the US have long history of legal separation, many European countries have this too, albeit of differing degrees/appearance. I think the stress of the sentence should be on "effective" Refdoc 17:34, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: European separation of church and state?

message: I think the output is excellent whatever the process to get to this page.
I have taken the liberty of adding "and resurrection" after two references to the effects of the death of Christ and our participation in it. I am not sure whether this change will be regarded as pedantry or heresy but if anyone wishes to reverse it they are welcome to do so if they are happy to meet me here and discuss the NT in detail?
BozMo
: Because the aim of the section is to represent that "wide" tradition the most inclusively, I've removed the second addition but have left the first.  Some would contend that baptism is into Christ's death, through which by faith the subject is made a participant in Christ's resurrection.  A subtle difference from saying that the subject is baptized into Christ's resurrection, and not one that I would be very insistent on maintaining - but, since you asked ... Mkmcconn 21:41, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that common parlance is certainly to be given the nod, here.  There is nothing obviously jarring about the phrase "miraculous resurrection", unless it's a bit redundant. I'm not sure that it means much to most people to say that it is not a miracle because it is not a sign.   And anyway, didn't Jesus call it the sign of Jonah?  Mkmcconn 21:48, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: Because the word can be removed without changing the meaning at all, I've removed it for your sake.  I don't think, however, that any significant number of readers would perceive the difficulty that you indicate. Mkmcconn 22:56, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Summation

message: Has anyone looked at this link?
* Christian Teen Forum - A Place For Teens to discuss Christianity, ask questions, and share the Bible. 
It looks barely alive with not that many members.  Is it useful to readers?  It looks like something added as an advert. - Tεxτurε 21:52, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian teen forum 

message: I removed following text == Alternative views ==The Ebionites originated as an ancient sect of Talmidi Jews (Followers of the Way) who held Jesus of Nazareth to have been a fully human Jewish prophet. They rejected notions of his divinity, the virgin birth, and opposed the teachings of Paul of Tarsus. while interesting, IMO, the proper place is among the other ancient heresies, rather than under a separate heading "alternative views" Refdoc 17:31, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  cut text ebionites