Talk:Prince Georg of Bavaria

message: What verifiable sources are there for Georg's relationship with Josepha Zapletal?  I have only seen personal webpages (and copies thereof) which record this relationship and ascribe a son to it.  I have never seen any print source, let alone anything scholarly? Is there something? Noel S McFerran
:I was just on my way here to say the same thing. Someone, perhaps the same Internet "source", keeps adding the details about Zapletal and a supposed bastard child, and does not provide any verifiable source for them. - Nunh-huh 02:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the references you added are a bit vague. Is The Life of a Hero Aviator a book? a newspaper article? References need to be given in enough detail to permit others to find them so they can be checked. THey should also be keyed to the facts that you are claiming they back up, since you removed the requests for citation. And please don't change other people's comments. - Nunh-huh 22:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have re-formatted the entry for the Wick book.  At some point I will request an inter-library loan to see exactly what it says.  I can't find the "Horrido" book - unless it is Pour le merite-Flieger by Walter Zuerl. Noel S McFerran 02:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Bastard is a standard term in royal genealogy, so you would do well to get used to it. It is a simple means of indicating a status that carries with it a lack of succession rights. Neither Miss Jolie nor Mr Tom have any titles to succeed to.  As for legitimation, it changes a child's present and future status, but doesn't change his or her history. Feel free to choose whatever words you like for yourself, but please don't try to dictate the choice of others. -  Nunh-huh 08:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Read further. Or have a look online, in searches such as this. WIlliam the Conquerer was known, during his lifetime, as William the Bastard. And of course countless French bastards were named X, bâtard Y, where X is a forename and Y the surname of their father. (Genealogics contains over 214 instances).  And of course, as you point out, titles are still treated informallly as if inherited, regardless of German law's position on the matter. - Nunh-huh 01:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I've removed the disputed tag, but described the story as "unverified" in the text itself. Noel S McFerran 04:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: On Wikipedia the term vandalism has a very specific meaning. Please don't make unwarranted accusations.  I think that I have made it clear that I personally believe that there are significant holes in the Zapetal story.  However, this is a story which is "out there" on the Internet.  I would rather that people read it here where it is described as "unverified", rather than not read anything here and then think that they have found something extra (and true) when they discover it elsewhere.  It would be even better if there were some evidence showing the holes in the story. Noel S McFerran 03:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, it's far closer to vandalism to remove attributed claims, even if those claims are false.  Ideally, we would be able to determine if they are false or true, but until such time, there is no benefit to the reader to censoring them.  - Nunh-huh 03:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: No, you didn't nominate it for deletion, you "prodded" it. I've unprodded it. If you actually want to nominate it for deletion, the instructions are here. That would, of course, be silly, as objecting to one portion of an article is not a reason for deletion. - Nunh-huh 04:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: An examination of the article history will show that I did not add the Zapletal story to this article.  I have, however, edited the addition to show that the story only comes from a few websites and is unverified beyond that. Noel S McFerran 11:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The military books merely cite the existence of a man with the name Franz Prinz von Bayern; he was certainly not very important (as opposed to the brother of Crown Prince Rupprecht who had the same name).  The books do not mention (as far as I am aware) any information about his parentage.  Whether or not he was the son of Prince Georg is disputed.  At the present time I personally have no opinion either way. Noel S McFerran 04:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Verifiability

message: On September 18, 2006, Bolekpolivka added several references to the article:
: unknown - Helmut Wick - das Leben eines Fliegerhelden - Scherl, Berlin for Der Adler, 1943, p.4  
: unknown - Horrido - Walter Zuerl, München, 1940, p.13-14,18,23-25, 29
I have tried to verify each of these references.
I have located the book Helmut Wick: Das Leben eines Fliegerhelden.  There is absolutely no text on page 4 (it is the blank reverse of the title page).  I have also gone through every other page of the book looking for any reference to a Franz Wittelsbach Prinz von Bayern (or any variant thereof).  I have found no such reference. If I've missed something, please correct me.
I have also looked for a book entitled Horrido published by Walter Zuerl in Munich in 1940 (or any other book of that title published by Zuerl any year, or by any publisher in 1940).  No such book is listed in the Bavarian Union Catalog or in any of the other German union catalogues I have searched.  If there is a more complete citation, please supply it.
It may be that the citations are merely slightly inaccurate.  I have removed them until somebody can verify that they actually exist. Noel S McFerran 00:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: For a long time this page has included the sentence, "Georg was known for his criticism of Adolf Hitler and of the Nazi ideology; he was a close personal friend of many other opponents of the regime, including Cardinals Michael von Faulhaber and Adolf Bertram."  I don't doubt the general truth of the statement; what I question is the verifiability.
While Georg certainly knew Faulhaber and Bertram, is it really accurate to say that he was a "close personal friend"?  Unless a specific source can be found, I will delete this. Noel S McFerran 19:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Nazi friends 

message: On January 18, 2006, an anonymous editor added the statement, "He was known for his criticism of the Nazi regime and Hitler and was a close personal friend of Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber and Adolf Cardinal Bertram."  Is there a source for this statement? I don't doubt that Georg knew both Faulhaber and Bertram, but the phrase "close personal friend" needs verification.  In addition, how and when did Georg criticize the Nazis? I have added the  tag.  If verification is not provided for this statement, I'll remove the statement until verification is found. Noel S McFerran (talk) 11:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazis, Faulhaber, and Bertram 

message: Even if this Franz exists, and even if he was legitimised, that does not make him dynastic. Furthermore, he was legitimised in accordance with the Bavarian royal house rules and pertaining to that. Therefore, how he could possibly claim succession to the Greek throne, as was indicated in the table, is beyond me. I have accordingly adapted it to show that the succession should logically devolve to his younger brother Konrad. The burden of evidence to the contrary clearly lies with the opposing view. Druworos (talk) 01:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession of the throne of Greece 

message: For the past two months there has been an edit war about whether or how to include any information about a possible relationship with Josepha.  I can live with one of two alternatives:
*1. don't mention the relationship at all since there are no reliable sources
*2. mention the fact that this story exists and is repeated on various websites (the status quo before October 15, 2010)
I don't think that it is appropriate to mention the relationship as if it were fact.  I have a slight preference for option 2 since I expect that going for option 1 will only result in the story being added back to the article (but without any reliable sources).  17:42, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war