Talk:List of prominent operas

message: I have no idea why, but all operas between "1893" and "1898" are randomly invisible. They're written, but they don't show up on the page. This is very frustrating, and it means "La Boheme" is missing. Somebody help! --Thepinterpause (talk) 13:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody didn't close some reference tags properly when using named refs, tags need to have /> at the end, or anything up tot he next closing tag is treated as being part of the reference (and only the text of the first occurence is actually shown. David Underdown (talk) 14:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some operas in the late 1700s are also missing. The culprit appears to be this edit: . For instance, Don Giovanni is no longer in the list... ugen64 (talk) 23:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Same thing - I think I've caught them all now.  David Underdown (talk) 09:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Somebody Help

message: Why only to 1991? Please take some references from really new sources like "Mille et un opéras" (Kaminski, 2003). I can't imagine a list of most important operas without "Licht" (1981-2004) by Stockhausen. I think now that Boesmans with his new operas (Julie, Yvonne) is also noteworthy. Or Eotvos for example. --91.196.28.168 (talk) 13:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is not based on individual opinions of what is important, but was compiled using these criteria, which are quite specific. Additions require mention in 5 reference works. It would be worthwhile finding 4 more recent reference works in addition to Kaminski (2003) in order to add later operas. Voceditenore (talk) 13:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

text: The problem with this approach of only using a set of books is that there is no way that major breakthrough composers can get on this list no matter how they are heralded. I am thinking of George Benjamin (composer), whose opera, Written on Skin, has been staged 8 times already in the 12 months since its premiere and has been claimed by some critics as the best opera written in the last 10 years http://www.fabermusic.com/Composers-Details.aspx?composerid=47.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.126.196 (talk) 12:07, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Why only to 1991?

message: Not important enough? 184.151.63.252 (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's listed here under its Italian title, Il barbiere di Siviglia. Voceditenore (talk) 18:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barber of Seville? 

message: 1985, Les Misérables (Claude-Michel Schönberg)?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.203.177.97 (talk) 10:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Les Misérables is a musical, not an opera. Voceditenore (talk) 12:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Les Misérables? 

message: Just have found my connection to classical music, but somehow i feel like this list is missing Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana".
Maybe there's a reason i don't know why it's no in here. Maybe i should be.
Would enjoy some educated answers.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.94.234.59 (talk) 13:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there. Welcome to Wikipedia. While Carmina Burana requires operatically trained voices to sing it (especially for the soloists) and is occasionally performed in costume with scenic effects (although increasingly rarely), it isn't really an opera. Its composer called it a "scenic cantata". It's basically a series of poems set to music and grouped by related themes.  Also, this list has specific criteria for inclusion: It's determined by a work's presence on a majority of compiled lists of significant operas. The "Lists Consulted" section has full details on how inclusion was worked out. Hope that helps. Voceditenore (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orff Carmina Burana 

message: I would like to add John Blow's Venus and Adonis to the list of "Significant firsts in opera history", it being considered the first English Language opera. This seems reasonable, given that the first French and German operas are present, and the work's significant influence on Purcell. Sound reasonable? Roadrunnertwice (talk) 09:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venus and Adonis 

message: Why there is no Gilbert and Sullivan operas? They're one of the most famous collaboration in music history. I tried to add their operas to the list but they were erased every time.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felix Modernssohn (talk • contribs) 04:45, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Gilbert-Sullivan? 

message: I am keen to know if there is a consistent policy on including operettas. I see that Die Fledermaus and The Merry Widow are included in an opera list, but not the Gilbert & Sullivan operettas.
Die Fledermaus at least is regularly performed by major opera companies.Zagraniczniak (talk) 18:51, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistent policy on operetta inclusion 

message: Lully was hugely influential in the history of opera, but seems to have been forgotten by all of the list compilers. It seems that disqualifies him from the main list, but he really should be included. Cadmus et Hermione established the form tragédie en musique, put French opera on the map, and began a century of Lully's influence.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwanasonic (talk • contribs) 03:32, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed -- English language POV is pretty obvious by this exclusion, esp. in how much he influenced so many of the following operas, and he is performed much more often than other later notices. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 06:22, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  To qualify for this particular list, there are conditions. It's historic, yes, it's thus bias, there have been discussions how to name it to clarify that but not successful. Perhaps make a different other list that really deserves this name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lully founded French opera, but not a single entry on the referenced lists. 

message: The article on A Village Romeo and Juliet (1907) says it's rarely performed as an opera (its US premiere was only in 1972, for example). Only one interlude from it features regularly in concerts, "The Walk to the Paradise Garden". Is it OK to remove it? OsFish (talk) 10:10, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The sole criterion for inclusion on this list is found here. If A Village Romeo and Juliet is found in at least five of those sources, then it belongs on the list. If not, then it should be removed.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The use of those lists is a way of operationalising the criterion of "importance", but is there no space for considering individual cases where the lists produce an opera that isn't recognisably "important" (such as it's very rarely performed)? OsFish (talk) 13:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I suggest you read the archived discussions of this talk page, particularly from Archive 3 onward. They are almost entirely to do with this very question.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:27, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks - that's very helpful. I'll have a browse.OsFish (talk) 04:50, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Delius' A Village Romeo and Juliet (1907) be removed from the list? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved to List of prominent operas. The current title is absurd, and honestly so is the title I'm moving this to, and it makes me think that a list of operas with such subjective inclusion criteria shouldn't even exist on Wikipedia. List of operas by date would be reasonable, but it might as well be List of operas, since the very reason this list exists is to have subjective criteria. "Prominent" at least should be more verifiable than "important" (maybe an opera is important in your opinion, maybe it's not, but if it doesn't show up in Google Books, it's probably not prominent). Honestly, WP:AFD should probably be summoned here, but as for WP:RM, since almost nobody likes the current title for very good reasons, I have to semi-arbitrarily pick one, and the late entry is the winner. (You wouldn't have guessed this result from the first several responses, but it's never over till the fat lady sings.)   Red Slash 20:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: List of important operas → ? – The word "important" is vague, undefined, and based on opinion. There has to be another option for naming this page, such as List of operas performed today ... but then "today" is subject to change. I'm not sure what title to use, but the title has to at least be a phrase that is not based on opinion or a timeframe that is subject to change almost immediately. Steel1943 (talk) 23:24, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

text: The discussion above is closed.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
===Post move===
What happened to the principle: no consensus -> no action? How can a name that was was supported and opposed by two users be the outcome? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

text: I agree, explained to the one who closed, and expected the close to be reverted. Will you please file close review? Or should we give them one more chance to undo? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:13, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO, this should have been relisted since it hadn't been yet. Also, the closing statement reads like a WP:SUPERVOTE. Steel1943 (talk) 15:53, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with all above. This is nowhere near consensus to move. Antandrus (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so here is another few hours later. Closure was not only premature, but completely unwarrented. This is just my personal opinion, of course but, like the closer's statement, ought to be counted as a WP:SUPERVOTE, because I do know what I am talking about.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I re-instated the status quo. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ...And I've reverted that since reverting the move goes against policy since a WP:MRV was never filed. I'll try to get it filed here in a bit. Steel1943 (talk) 15:19, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

text: *Move review filed: See Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2020 August#List of prominent operas. Steel1943 (talk) 15:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

text: *: So you think after we had an out-of-process move, we need to waste time in process? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

text: *::...Well, it's not necessarily a time waste since WP:MRV allows editors who were not part of the discussion have the review solicited for uninvolved third-party opinion ... which helps ensure the revert gets proper exposure to uninvolved parties before it occurs, and to make sure there is nothing the involved editors missed or were mistaken about. (I've seen it happen before ... though I really don't think it will happen in this case, but one never knows for 100% certainty.) Steel1943 (talk) 19:52, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 10 July 2020 

message: What happened to the principle: no consensus -> no action? How can a name that was was supported and opposed by two users be the outcome? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, explained to the one who closed, and expected the close to be reverted. Will you please file close review? Or should we give them one more chance to undo? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:13, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO, this should have been relisted since it hadn't been yet. Also, the closing statement reads like a WP:SUPERVOTE. Steel1943 (talk) 15:53, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with all above. This is nowhere near consensus to move. Antandrus (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so here is another few hours later. Closure was not only premature, but completely unwarrented. This is just my personal opinion, of course but, like the closer's statement, ought to be counted as a WP:SUPERVOTE, because I do know what I am talking about.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I re-instated the status quo. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ...And I've reverted that since reverting the move goes against policy since a WP:MRV was never filed. I'll try to get it filed here in a bit. Steel1943 (talk) 15:19, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

text: *Move review filed: See Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2020 August#List of prominent operas. Steel1943 (talk) 15:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

text: *: So you think after we had an out-of-process move, we need to waste time in process? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

text: *::...Well, it's not necessarily a time waste since WP:MRV allows editors who were not part of the discussion have the review solicited for uninvolved third-party opinion ... which helps ensure the revert gets proper exposure to uninvolved parties before it occurs, and to make sure there is nothing the involved editors missed or were mistaken about. (I've seen it happen before ... though I really don't think it will happen in this case, but one never knows for 100% certainty.) Steel1943 (talk) 19:52, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Post move

message: What if George Alexander Macfarren's Helvellyn was the most famous of all English operas.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.32.20.151 (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What if Macfarren's Helvellyn was the most famous of all English operas 

message: There's operas in Portuguese of XIX century:
# Francisco de Sa Noronha (1820-1881): Um filho famílias
# Joaquim Casimiro Junior (1801-1862): A filha do Ar
# João Arroio (1861-1930): Amor de Perdição
# Francisco de Freitas Gazul (1842-1925): A cebola mysteriosa
176.32.16.2 (talk) 18:05, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opera in Portugal in the XIX century 

message: I've searched the Talk archives and this page, and I see no discussion of including Scott Joplin's Treemonisha, which was written in 1911 but not performed until 1972, when it created quite a stir and netted Joplin a posthumous Pulitzer. I did see that Treemonisha appeared in a couple of the notable-opera lists that were mentioned in the archive, but then no discussion after that. I'm not enough of an opera historian to be willing to add it on my own, but I figured I'd throw the idea out there to see what people think. Jbening (talk) 00:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah--I just read the Lists consulted section. So I take it Treemonisha appears on fewer than five of the lists consulted? So if someone were to add an opera not on at least five of those lists, it would be removed by decree, since the article is by definition based on those lists? Jbening (talk) 01:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about Treemonisha?