Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 4

message: There are many outsiders came in at different time, migrated to Pashtunkhwa and assilimated with them in language and culture, that will never effect the origin of Pashtuns, like if some Turks came in and get mingled with Pashtuns, that dosn't mean, we would call them Turks, they will be called Pashtuns due to their language and culture. For example there are so many rivers making their way and fall in Great Abasin(Sind River) before they fall, they have their identity but once they fell in Abasin(sind river), they lose their identities, those rivers couldn't effect the identity of Abasin.
Language and Culture create nations ! What a lovely Pashto Proverb here for friends "Da kali ooza kho da karkha ma ooza" (Leave your village but don't leave your line". Thanks  --   Haider 22:30, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lovely Proverb

message: Even in Swabi no one considers them Pashtun, so Haider - are you a Tanoli that you want them included? If so fine if that makes you feel happy, but in the REAL WORLD TANOLIS ARE NOT PASHTUN. Sorry for the capitals but noone seems to undrstand that fact. The MASHWANIS THEMSELVES say they are not PASHTUN but SYED - that is the REAL world. I met a Mashwani and asked him if he was a "Pathan" and he said "No" we are SAYED. (from insaaf to Haider) .
Remember what you had for me ? Now it's time to say you in Pashto "Par me ka - Mar me ka" (Convince me through Jirga/debate/discussion), or don't come harsh again !
Did I make any shout when pashtun page was blocked, (as you were shouting,, not now but some time earlier) as some of my friend requested,, but I was keep in touch to write some references here so calmly? 
First a book Panjab Castes by Denzil Ibbeston was your choice to take reference from,, not mine! (lacking knowledge now, as you mentioned)
Second a book Pathans by Olaf Caroe was your choice to take reference about Mashwanis, which prooves you so wrong ! (Pathans by Olaf Caroe "english" will be in my hands soon). Will you accept the page nos then ?
Third a book  encyclopedia of races by E.D Magligan and H.A Rose was your choice to proove something about Mashwanis not mine !
What would you say about great Khiljis and Karlanis? On the other hand I have showed you some information through books ! Do you have a book "Maghzane Afghani by Niamatullh Hirvi of 17th century", if yes then you can see a Tribe name Mashwani in his lineal tree? Karlani was an adopted son,, not a real one ,, do you believe in that ?
Now the major problem with you is, (same book,,same author) you are taking references which goes in favour of you only and trying to duck under it, what he wrote about some other tribes !
Do you think just the people of Qandhar or migrated from around,, are Pashtuns ? This is a real world and please try to face some reality about great Pashtuns and their land (Pashtunkhwa). Please accept the beauty of Wikipedia and stop belitilling Pashtun tribes.
First you will have to reach at some consensus then you should go and make changes whatever you like,, so please don't make any changes in Pashtun tribes list or I will request for page protection(Locked).
just send me your postal address , I promise you I will send you these books which you don't have.
Believe me I don't even believe in those books but since you believe in them. I have a collection of books regarding Pashtuns and can proove more tribes if required .
I have a friend from Mashwani Tribe also,, when I asked him about his origin , he replied without any hesitation ,, Is there any doubt ?
Why do you believe in ,, more controversial and less controversial Pashtun tribes ? I can't see even none out there !
 
:A lovely Pashto proverb is not mentioning lineage,, that indicate us about Culture (Tradition, rules, laws etc)  --  Haider 11:12, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply controversial issue

message: Insaaf my dear brother, I didn't take references just from one book as you can watch it out - very politely, it was you my brother, who took references about mashwanis to proove them non Pashtuns according to Olaf Caroe - am I right? 
About tanolis it is very visible in Hazara Gazetteer as author wrote that they have long association become so assimilated to the pashtuns it is difficult to seperate them. Major Wace had his views almost the same. Yes you are right I didn't find name Tanoli in Niamatullah's hirvi book but there are so many tribes missing like the great Yousafzais? And please do take some time atleast, what Hirvi wrote about some other tribes like the great Khiljis and Karlanis !
Mashwanis were on of British side that's what you said if that then what was wrong about the great Swatis with their neighbours Hassanzais, chgarzais and akazais,, as they fought against them for almost forty years 1852 to 1892 in Hazara,(Still we can see some tribal areas of the Swati country like Thakot, Nandhiar, Tikri, Battagram, Agror, Allai and Deeshan). - Mashwanis were in favour so they have recieved some incentives,, you meant - Swatis were against them so they have recieved some names like,, Decietful, coward, cruel etc etc? For Swatis bravery see books "Campaigns on the North West Frontier" by Captain H.L. Nevill and "From the Black Mountain to Waziristan" by Colonel H.C Wylly .
Insaaf, you just believe in Lineal view about Pashtuns - why are you persisting people like me to believe in the same view as we can see, there are lot of controversies as compare to Cultural view. 
Believe me I really working on a book regarding Pashtuns but it will take time because it's not an easy job because want to write a creative one, a cousin of mine is helping me in this task.
Dosn't matter if Pashtun is living in Urban or rural areas.
See what a Pashtun Mir Afzal Khan Jadoon wrote about some Pashtuns !
Various scholars have presented a new theory on scientific lines about the origin of Afghans. Fraser tytler pleaded for the mixed race theory according to which the Pashtuns are Aryans by origin, but have intermingled with elements of Turkish, Mongol and other strains. He is supported by Charles miller, saying that they had been on the scene for centuries, by a bubbling ethnic stew of Persian, Greek, Scythian, Turk and Mongol to mention only a few of the invading and migrating peoples who contributed their racial ingredients to the Afghan stock. Abdul Ghani khan, a Pashto poet and philosopher (late) also share the same opinion. He considers the Afghans as a mixture of many races that came through their areas from central Asia. Suddum (mardan) , Khyber (Peshawar) and elum (swat) are the places, which resemble in names those of bani Israel. Mir afzal khan Jadoon is of the opinion that the features as well as the habits of the Afghans resemble those of the Jews. Apart from the clans of Karlanr and mati, tannulis, swatis and Jadoons are similar to the Jews in their dwelling and clothes. 
Insaaf, it's not an easy dispute to be solved !
In last I will delete Tanolis only, kindly don't even think about other Pashtun Tribes,, it's not because I am convinced, but If you are happy with that and will gives you some satisfaction - please don't forget as they say "Snake in the Grass" (They don't like unity of Pashtuns). I have a humble request to read a book "Pashtun in the mirror of their race" by Syed Bahadur Shah Zafer Kaka Khel .  
Brother, If I some day convinced you, promise me you will add Tanolis as Pashtuns. Take care !  --  Haider 18:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply1 controversial tribes

message: Insaaf Pashtun, First of all let me correct you about the great Swatis that "Pallal and Hindwall" are not the subsection of Swatis ,, they belong to Tanolis! Swatis have khels like Jhangiri, Khankhel, Sherkan khel, Shan khel, Khawaja Kheli, Khazani khel, Deeshan khel or Deshai, Surkhel and some like Malkal, inzali etc. Add Khel at the end, would become inzali khel. 
I don't believe in,, as about the migration of Yousafzais from Qandhar in that massive way,, they were already present there (Swat etc) so as Swatis. Let me tell you one important thing about Swatis that the last Swati ruler Owais Jahangiri was died in his own territory at Manglore,, not in Hazara ! (Remember Jahangiris dynasty was from Jalalabad to Jehlum including Hazara's lands and mountains). An interesting point,, who are Jahangiris and Khazanis of Iran? (Two related tribes of Iran, as Ishaaq Jahangiri of Iran holding a ministry there) !
In Hazara Gazetteer about Tanolis,, you can see,, what I wrote about them on page no 64 !
The Mashwanis mother was from Pashtun Tribe then please tell me about Khiljis as their mother only were from Pashtun Tribe,(that's your line of thought). There are lot of Khels in Mashwani Tribe as Yousaf Khel is one of them. I forgot to ask you about Mashwanis bravery,, where were your views when they were fighing against Sikhs (Hari singh Nalwa) in 18th century?
What I do believe in that if a tribe's mother language is Pashto then they would be defenitely consider Pashtuns,, and ofcourse mother language is not easy to adopt in over nights. Do I add Quraish, Rajputs, Dhunds etc in Pashtuns tribe list, if not then there is no need to discuss on them.
Bannuchis definitely are Pashtuns ,, what view would go against them? You will feel better if you read some of the Pashtun authors also! First you will have to change your mind like by thinking "less controversial tribes and much controversial tribes",, more controversial tribes of Pashtuns would take place in list and less dosn't deserve that, every Pashtuns tribe is controversial,, whether less or more but are!! (what a funny way to think about Pashtuns).
What I know through my personnel observations that Bhopali Pathans are not Pashtuns even if they had some links with Pashtuns severel hundred years ago, and Pashtuns who do speak Pashto around the world would be considered Pashtun,(They have leave their country but didn't leave their Narakha or Karkha"Mark").
I can prove so many subsections in some of the famous Pashtun tribes,, they didn't use khel or zai at the end,, for example in Surban sections like Tokhi, Tangi, Sepal, Khadar, Sulmehak etc,, what does these names sounds like? There are numerous in defferent major tribes,, I can show you, if you want me to do .
 
Insaaf brother, I don't know,, what three views about Pashtuns you have,, definetly not Matrilineal and Cultural?
What you beleive in,, Pashtuns are from Bani-Israel?
Pashtuns a Greek race?
Pashtuns a Sythic race?
Pashtuns a Heterogenous race?
Pashtuns a branch of Irani race?
Pashtuns very old race?
Pashtuns were Aryans? 
Cha lala Pathan krama - Cha lala Afghan krama 
Za saada Pashtun yama - Za saada insaan yama.
 
Thanks  --  Haider 10:33, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: Insaaf my great pashtun brother,  Infact that’s not exactly just what I am telling about Tanolis, but according to some books as I  took referenceses from – As I told you earlier aslo, I didn’t see Great Yousafzais in Niamatullah Hirvi’s book , and some other famous tribes also – As far as Gujars, Karal, Dhuds etc concern ,, believe me they do not speak Pashto as their mother tongue. But Tanolis esp in Mardan and on the Western outskirts of Hazara ,, they are strict on Pashunwali and speaking Pashto as their mother tongue. 
Brother, I have already prove Mashwanis as in your line of thought (Genealogical Tree), so as Great Swatis in Bhittani  and Great Khijis as included in the same race and the adopted son of Qais Abul Rasheed! But I don’t believe in them -  you know,, what I do believe in !
I really admire your credentials and ability, my request is to you , be a little bit positive about Pashtuns , there are large numbers of tribes(your line of thought - less or more controversials) and  as we know that there are numorous tribes assimilated in Pashtuns, but definitely a question will take place in mind , who is Pashtun then?
You are right , if you are good in English that doesn’t mean , you will become an English man but will it be worth full to lose your own mother tongue(Pashto) in reply ! English is necessary but not compulsory – That is a great loss for the entire Pashtun nation – You know one thing , There are three major parts in creation of a nation ,, Language, Culture and Land ! It will not take just one generation to lose Language but how much time it will take to be acquired again (No idea)?
We will have to sphere some time for some new research regarding Pashtuns- A Pashtun will tell you itself , he is a Pashtun ,, doesn’t need any certificate.
Ofcouse as friends together we would find some great information about other Pashtuns tribes also like "Dawars" – What they have their views about them like W.G Spain and others – Those all are unbearable for me atleast if I am a Pashtun.
Anyway take great care ! Khudai pa amaan .  --  Haider 10:46, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply(3)

message: The Persian Empire was an empire of satraps.  There were two persian empires, the Achaemenid Dynasty who were from the clan called PasarGADae (sons of Gad).  This was intermarriage between the Israelite tribe of Gad and a Median ruling clan.  The second Persian Empire was the Sassanian Empire.  These were the Madaii of old, and Iranians today.  Between the two Persian empires there was the Parthian Empire.  The Pashtuns were descendants of the first Persian Empire, who were forced to Migrate East by the Sassanians.  They intermarried with Cushites who are predominate in southern India.  
The Parthian Empire was controlled by the tribe of Ephraim (who were exiled to the Caspian Sea area by the Assyrians) and their ruling dynasty was the Arsacids, descendants from the tribe of Judah.  The Dahan or Thahanites, the Bachtrians, and the Eranites, were the main tribes controlling the Empire.  In 224 AD when they fell and migrated west, they became known as the Getae and Anglii.  History knows them as the Visigoths.  
The Achaemenid Persians wound up in Afghanistan and Pakistan as Pashtuns.  The Parthian ruling dynasty was involved in the Anglo, Saxon and Jutes, invasion of Britain.  The Sassanian Persians remained today in Iran.
===response===
Uh, no.  Getae and Anglii were West Germanic tribes (Geats and Angles); Visigoths were East Germanic.  Not only were they not the same as one another, they were not Iranians.  Their languages are incredibly different from Parthian.  There is no consensus linking the Medes with any particular modern or historical people, although Sasanid sources like the Karnamag-i Ardakhshir suggest to some that the Kurds are descendants of the Medes.
There was a period of centuries intervening between the end of the Achaemenid and the beginning of the Sasanian empires; it is ridiculous to suggest that the Sasanians had anything to do with the fall of the Achaemenids.  The Achaemenids were defeated ca. 326 BCE by Alexander the Great.
Furthermore, "Pasargadae" is not the name of a tribe. It is the name of a place and it has nothing whatsoever to do with Biblical history.  In fact, there is no credible evidence linking Biblical figures with figures from Iranian history.--KASchmidt 01:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pashtuns from Parthia 

message: Uh, no.  Getae and Anglii were West Germanic tribes (Geats and Angles); Visigoths were East Germanic.  Not only were they not the same as one another, they were not Iranians.  Their languages are incredibly different from Parthian.  There is no consensus linking the Medes with any particular modern or historical people, although Sasanid sources like the Karnamag-i Ardakhshir suggest to some that the Kurds are descendants of the Medes.
There was a period of centuries intervening between the end of the Achaemenid and the beginning of the Sasanian empires; it is ridiculous to suggest that the Sasanians had anything to do with the fall of the Achaemenids.  The Achaemenids were defeated ca. 326 BCE by Alexander the Great.
Furthermore, "Pasargadae" is not the name of a tribe. It is the name of a place and it has nothing whatsoever to do with Biblical history.  In fact, there is no credible evidence linking Biblical figures with figures from Iranian history.--KASchmidt 01:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: response

message: Insafa, Sstarey Mashey, Khushala Ussa! I don't know who added above mentioned tribes as Pashtuns like Awans and Maliks, I didn't make any changes since our last consensus,, you are free to remove those tribes,, but why did you add some groups ,, after all you are a sensible man ! I am taking those tribes off from the tribes list! Take care and be happy always.  --  Haider 19:27, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply New Addtion

message: I would like to take some attention of my Pashtun friends about a photo on the main page, showing some Pashtun men sitting with AK-47 (Klashnikoves),, is it just left, what we are showing whole world that we have nothing to hold but guns !!!!!! Why can't we show Pashtun boys going to School with some Books or why can't we glow them sitting in a hujra and enjoying some Qahwa etc?? Now there are numerous Pashtuns highly qualified taking part to promote their Tribe and Nation.  --  203.130.9.24 15:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Tombseye ! You will be highly appreciated if you have put up a Picture of Pashtuns in their Hujra (Room just for guests and Friends) chatting to each other with some great Tea or Qahwa in front of them because Todays Pashtun want to compete in each and every modern seintific field rather than just with weapons. I think it is more common that Pashtun geniuses holding books also !   Haider 16:51, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why Pashtun men with guns usually