Talk:Pat Quinn (politician)

message: Any relation to the folks who started Quinn's Coffee in Clarendon Hills, IL (next to Hinsdale where he was born)?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.119.199 (talk) 15:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Quinn's Coffee Shop in Clarendon Hills

message: Since Quinn will likely be governor in a few days or weeks, it seems prudent to flush out this article. I took some good first steps getting a good bit of his history down. The section on his role as lieutenant governor is still a bit basic, but hopefully this is a good start. I also made sure the whole article is clean with its references, so I removed the citation warning at the top.Yestim (talk) 22:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Overhaul

message: Quinn is in the background and in rather low light in the photo while a publicly unknown person is up front and is brightly lit.  Beside the possible WP:BLP issue with the young lady, can we get a better photo, and if not, can the current one be at least cropped so that Quinn is the only person in it? --Oakshade (talk) 16:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's illegal to show this photo.  She is clearly deliberately showing herself in public with the Lt. Gov.  Cropping the photo would result in cutting off a small part of the Lt. Governor's head. Superm401 - Talk 19:31, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Fixed 163.191.255.254 (talk) 20:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

text: It is a much better photo. I just get suspicious when a photo of a prominent politician is released into the public domain right in the midst of a media frenzy and political crisis. I do hope we can work out the licensing and use the better photo. Illinois2011 (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

text: It is certainly a better photo, and it should definitely be used if possible, but we do require confirmation that it's actually a PD image before we can use it — especially when the image is quite obviously taken from another website and simply tagged as PD by a brand-new editor. I've put a one-week semiprotect from new and anonymous editors on this page, both because of the image editwarring and because this is obviously going to be a highly visible and sensitive target over the next few days. I do hope we can resolve the copyright status of the new photo as soon as possible, because it is clearly a superior image, but we do require confirmation first. Bearcat (talk) 19:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Please see text on bottom of official about page here: . Hopefully, this is suffice to end the editwarring. Will someone please change it back to this photo? Gil Jimenez (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The permission has to be filed directly with Wikipedia through an OTRS ticket. It's not enough to simply point us to an informal permission statement on a website, because that statement doesn't clarify whether the release is public domain or non-commercial fair use. We're not allowed to use the latter type of image here. Bearcat (talk) 20:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it explictly states the image is open source, would that work? If I were to uploaded a photo that I personally took, would that also work? Thanks for helping me deal with this. Also, can we crop the current image to remove the other person who is not Pat Quinn? Gil Jimenez (talk) 21:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  If an image is explicitly licensed as GFDL, PD or Creative Commons, then yes. A photo that you personally took is also fine, as long as you provide the correct licensing. I'm not fundamentally opposed to cropping the current image — though realistically, the arrangement of elements in the current photo is such that even a photo cropped down to just Quinn's face would still capture part of the woman's forehead and hair. Bearcat (talk) 21:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The image has been uploaded to the official Office of Lt Governor Flickr page with the corrected Creative Commons license.  It is also linked from the official Office of Lt Governor website. Wjmaggos (talk) 18:35, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Current photo

message: Can someone knowledgable add his contribution to consumer protection via the CUB?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.108.94 (talk) 10:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citizens Utility Board (CUB) 

message: Who now becomes Lieutenant Governor? When Pat is sworn in as Governor, how is he replaced as Lieutenant Governor? Special election? Seedless Maple (talk) 22:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Make that, until January 2011. Also, Quinn became Governor at the moment Blagojevich was convicted (oath or no oath). GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who now becomes Lieutenant Governor? 

message: Just so there's no confusion. Quinn, became Governor of Illinos at the moment of Blagojevich's conviction (oath or no oath). GoodDay (talk) 00:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quinn became Governor, at the moment of Blagojevich's conviction 

message: Quinn is obviously a lot older than he is in this picture; let's get a new one.Saberwolf116 (talk) 03:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Clearly, Pat Quinn never ran for any office with Osama bin Laden.  The "election results" below have been vandalized--no idea if any part of them is actually correct.
There was more vandalism by Teddecker16.  I reverted the page back to before those changes were made - wjmaggos, William J Maggos.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wjmaggos (talk • contribs) 19:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: This section seems incomplete.
It should include primary election results, including Quinn's run for U.S. Senate in 1996 and his election as Lt. Gov.~~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by LastNavigator (talk • contribs) 15:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Electoral history 

message: The following text was present under the third sentence of the Ethics Reform Section, and it seemed distracting and out of place: 
"On July 30, 2009 he announced that day to be Mark Buehrle day, after the pitcher threw a perfect game against the Tampa Bay Rays."
This text does not refer to ethics reform. It should be re-inserted somewhere else, if it was not an artifact of the aforementioned vandalism.
--Heinstein99 (talk) 20:21, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Mark Buehrle Day reference from Ethics Reform section 

message: I restored the link to the disambiguation. People arrive on this page also via search engine and other means and we should make people aware that they may be searching for another Pat Quinn - not everyone is knowledgeable in Wikipedia linking. Hekerui (talk) 21:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If someone types Pat Quinn in a search engine, then automatically not just the politician but other wiki-relevant Pat Quinns will be ejected as search results. Pat Quinn is by far a much more common name than, let me say, Ali Abdullah Saleh. --112.205.7.91 (talk) 15:49, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not a reason to reduce the ability of users to navigate the site, especially because the name is common, right? Hekerui (talk) 09:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You can have also two presidents in your state at same time. Two can do more... --112.205.7.91 (talk) 02:32, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Hatlink

message: I've reverted this gigantic section because as written it was a gross violation of BLP; frankly I'm surprised an experienced editor like Rjensen hadn't done so already. This entire section is a massive act of :WP:SYNTHESIS, full of accusations unsupported by the provided sources, combined with a tacit assumption that everything done in Illinois is to be blamed on Quinn's "leadership" failures. I hate to break it to you flatlanders, but Illinois has been misgoverning itself quite thoroughly since before Quinn took office; indeed, since before he was born. The pension shortfalls, for example, have been traced to decades of mismanagement by Democratic and Republican officials alike. 
I would urge both sides to rebuild this stuff line by line, salvaging only what meets :WP:UNDUE and :WP:BLP and follows :WP:NOR, reflecting what reliable sources say about Quinn not about Illinois. I also ask that all of you abandon the loaded verbs like "confessed", "conceded" and "admitted", which reek of bias and NPOV violations. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:00, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good, while working through this article, I will do mass reversions of all the attack articles, WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP, that doesn't follow WP:NOR of conservative Governors to have them rebuilt, line by line, and cite this model - because we wouldn't want once process for liberal governors and a different one for conservative governors - would we? Thanks Orange Mike!Patriot1010 (talk) 23:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wherever one finds blatant problems with WP:SYNTHESIS, WP:UNDUE, and WP:NOR on a BLP, one should always seek to remove the material without regard to one's political views.  Thank you, OrangeMike, for calling a spade a spade.  Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:20, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Quinn's role As governor of Illinois is central to his biography.  One editor suggests that wording in the section indicates that Quinn has responsible for the States major fiscal problems.  He points to 3 words – confessed, conceded, and admitted-- that he thinks are biased.  Okay, we can get rid of that.  The BLP rules require attribution in our reliable source for all material, and that criteria is met, so there are no BLP violations that I can see.Rjensen (talk) 13:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed all the terminology that seemed POV and put Illinois in a national context noting it's the national recesssion that's causing the sort-term issues.  Rjensen (talk) 13:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You put back in large tracts of the same material that was contested above.  Let's discuss it.  Thanks, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mass reversion 

message: Here is my proposed revision, with all of the contest points and POV removed. Does anyone have any specific issues?
#A) As governor Quinn faced a state with a reputation for corruption--two ex-governors were in prison--and after two years polls showed Quinn himself was the "Nation's most unpopular governor."  The main issue was an economic crisis in meeting the state's budget and its long-term debt as the national economic slump continued and Illinois did poorly in terms of creating jobs.  Quinn spoke often to the public and met regularly with state leaders, in stark contrast to Rod Blagojevich's seclusion from others.
#B) Quinn announced several "belt-tightening" programs to help curb the state deficit. In July 2009, Quinn signed a $29 billion capital bill to provide construction and repair funds for Illinois roads, mass transit, schools, and other public works projects. The capital bill, known as "Illinois Jobs Now!", was the first since Governor George H. Ryan's Illinois FIRST plan, which was enacted in the late-1990s. On July 7, 2009, he for the second time in a week vetoed a budget bill, calling it "out of balance", his plan being to more significantly fix the budget gap in Illinois. In March 2009, Quinn called for a 1.5 percentage point increase in the personal income tax rate. To help offset the increased rate, he also sought to triple the amount shielded from taxation (or the "personal exemption") – from $2,000 per person to $6,000. However, the bill that eventually passed increased the personal income tax by 2%.
# C) With the state budget deficit projected to hit $15 billion in 2011, the legislature in early 2011 raised the personal income tax from 3% to 5%, and the corporation profits tax 4.8% to 7%. Governor Quinn's office projected the new taxes will generate $6.8 billion a year, enough to balance the annual budget and begin reducing the state's backlog of about $8.5 billion in unpaid bills."Ill. Gov. Quinn signs major tax increase into law," Associated Press January 13, 2011 A report from the Civic Federation in September 2011 projected a $8.3 billion deficit to end the budget year. The Illinois Policy Institute has calculated that the tax hike will cost the average Illinois household one week's pay.http://illinoispolicy.org/news/article.asp?ArticleSource=4087
#D) After three years of raising taxes of workers and businesses, ending with an increase in corporate taxes in 2011 from 7.3% to 9.5%, the national recession left the economy in trouble. Quinn said the state's financial system is “on the brink of collapse,” and the State of Illinois was only remaining solvent by not paying its bills. The Associate Press reported that "Gov. Pat Quinn made clear Wednesday that he fears Illinois is on the verge of a financial meltdown because of pension systems eating up every new dollar and health care costs climbing through the roof."Christopher Wills, "Quinn says hello to ‘reality’ in Illinois," Associated Press Feb. 23, 2012 Quinn championed “draconian” Medicaid and healthcare cuts to remove hundreds of thousands of poor needy, and elderly from public health health programs totaling $1.6 billion dollars in 2012. A critic on the left, Illinois Congressperson Rep. Mary Flowers, D-Chicago attacked Quinn: “I don't know where it's written in the law that this has to be balanced on the backs of poor people, on the backs of seniors, on the backs of the aged, blind and disabled.”(2)
#E) The unprecedented cuts were too small to resolve the long-term issue according to rating agencies that downgraded Illinois to the lowest credit rating of any US state in 2012. Huge unpaid pension obligations totaling $85 billion with a backlog of $8 billion required pension reform, but Quinn did not push the legislation as elections were drawing near. 
#F)  In an effort to reduce the state's financial obligations, in November of 2012 Quinn cancelled contracts with the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Union officials stated “Quinn wanted concessions so deep that they are “an insult to every state employee.”(5) By December of 2012 Illinois had the fifth highest unemployment rate in the United States. In February of 2013 a national conservative columnist said Illinois was “the worst governed state in the Nation” due to the failure to enact needed reforms Quinn had promised during his campaign. By March of 2013, Illinois public-employee pension liability reached $100 billion dollars.     Rjensen (talk) 14:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: D-E-F look good to me. I would restore that quote from Rep. Mary Flowers,instead of leaving it vague who the "critics" are. Rjensen (talk) 16:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I felt the quote gave it too much weight; how about we replace "critics stated" with "critics including State Representative Mary E. Flowers stated"? AzureCitizen (talk) 17:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: we need also to identify her as a critic on the left, eg Democratic State Rep. Mary E. Flowers (she is the only black quoted in the article.) Rjensen (talk) 20:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good.  I'll make an implementation edit on my next pass... AzureCitizen (talk) 21:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed revision 

message: #D + E) After three years of tax increases for workers and businesses, ending with an increase in corporate taxes in 2011 from 7.3% to 9.5%, the national recession left the economy in trouble.  During an annual budget address on February 22, 2012 to the Illinois Legislature, Quinn warned that the state's financial system was nearing collapse.  The Associated Press reported that Quinn feared Illinois was "on the verge of a financial meltdown because of pension systems eating up every new dollar and health care costs climbing through the roof."Christopher Wills, "Quinn says hello to ‘reality’ in Illinois," Associated Press Feb. 23, 2012  According to the Civic Federation, Illinois is only able to remain solvent by not paying its bills on time.  Quinn advocated Medicaid and healthcare cuts totaling $1.6 billion dollars in 2012; critics stated the cuts would remove hundreds of thousands of the poor and elderly from public health health programs.  The unprecedented cuts were too small to resolve the long-term issue according to rating agencies that downgraded Illinois to the lowest credit rating of any US state in 2012.  As of November 2012, unpaid pension obligations totaled $85 billion with a backlog of $8 billion.
#F)  In an effort to reduce the state's financial obligations, in November of 2012 Quinn cancelled contracts with the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Union officials contended that "Quinn wanted concessions so deep that they are an insult to every state employee,"  while the administration contended that the state is paying salaries and benefits at levels it says "exceeds the salaries and benefits of other unionized state workers across the country.".  As of December 2012, Illinois had the fifth highest unemployment rate in the United States, and by March 2013, Illinois public-employee pension liability reached $100 billion dollars.
:::D-E-F look good to me. I would restore that quote from Rep. Mary Flowers,instead of leaving it vague who the "critics" are. Rjensen (talk) 16:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I felt the quote gave it too much weight; how about we replace "critics stated" with "critics including State Representative Mary E. Flowers stated"? AzureCitizen (talk) 17:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: we need also to identify her as a critic on the left, eg Democratic State Rep. Mary E. Flowers (she is the only black quoted in the article.) Rjensen (talk) 20:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good.  I'll make an implementation edit on my next pass... AzureCitizen (talk) 21:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternate D-E-F

message: Tiller54 says "Lengthy quotes from a newspaper endorsement of an opponent in a BLP are massively WP:UNDUE." I argue that political analysis by major newspaper of his performance of governor is not "undue" -- indeed it is required by NPOV rules.  The WP:UNDUE rule states that: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects."  The Chicago Tribune is the state's largest and most influential newspaper and its editorial evaluation of Quinn's performance is important in its own right.  In the text it is balanced by a favorable assessment of Quinn by the Rockford newspaper, thus presenting both sides.  The papers summarize the main issues of the election campaign and given the very close nearly 50-50 race clearly do not reflect "minority"  views. Wikipedia requires editors to provide both sides of controversial issues, such as Quinn's performance in office. Furthermore the rule WP:PUBLICFIGURE states: "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say.".  Erasing this material looks like a partisan attempt to silence criticism of Quinn.Rjensen (talk) 06:15, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV to erase criticism of the governor the week before the election 

message: Today is November 18th, 2014.  Over the past two weeks since the election, the infobox has been edited several times to change it to display Governor-elect Rauner as having succeeded Governor Quinn and with a date of January 12, 2015.  When this is reverted, the same editors often return and re-insert it.  In my personal opinion, I think it is extremely likely that Rauner will indeed succeed Quinn, but to be a successor, you have to be sworn into the office and legally take the position.  Before that happens, you haven't actually "succeeded" anybody, nor are you a "successor".  Hypothetically speaking, Rauner could have a car accident or a heart attack before the inauguration date, and then Lt. Gov-elect Sanguinetti would succeed Quinn (and in such a scenario it could never be said that "Rauner succeeded Quinn", even if for several weeks after the election it was looking that way as it is now).  Or, Quinn could have a car accident or a heart attack before January 12, 2015, and then Lt. Gov. Simon would succeed Quinn, and then when Rauner took the office as planned, he would succeed Simon.  The point is, until it happens and someone takes the oath and is sworn in as Governor in accord with the law, there is no "successor" nor someone who was "succeeded by".  Ergo, the infobox should reflect no successor until the due time.  Between now and then, it should also be noted that the lede already mentions twice (in the first paragraph of the lede and the last paragraph of the lede) that Rauner won the election, so it's not like the reader doesn't understand who the future Governor is.  So why all the repeat attempts to edit this into the infobox, and what is the rationale for the crystal ball edits?  Further discussion here on the Talk Page and consensus should prevail over flipping it back and forth.  Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:43, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Bruce Rauner shouldn't be listed yet, at least not without an explicit qualifier such as "Governor-elect" or "presumptive" at each and every point at which his name is implied as a successor, and with an  every time it's mentioned so we can see which pre-emptive/future-tense wording still exists when we have to clean it up when next governor actually takes the oath.  Declaring Rauner the successor-in-fact requires violations of WP:OR then WP:CRYSTAL then WP:SYNTH: It first requires an WP:OR claim that politicians don't drop dead often enough for it to matter, based on someone's own opinion of how often matters; that then becomes a WP:CRYSTAL claim that neither person will be dead in January; that then becomes WP:SYNTH that, since neither Quinn nor Rauner will die, Sheila Simon will not become governor first, and the governor-elect will be the very next person to take office.  This rush to be the earliest editor to update articles has crept into Wikipedia culture so much, that people will now add claims before they're true, not just moments in advance, but now weeks, like we see here.  Should we be describing what Queen Elizabeth II's funeral "is" like too, since it's even more certain eventually?  Of course not. --Closeapple (talk) 23:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Closeapple for suggesting that, I hadn't thought of the template and I just noticed that another editor re-added the "successor" field in the infobox again.  I will insert it on my next edit.  Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 03:42, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

text: Why are we making this article the exception to the practice? See Deval Patrick, Rick Perry, Lincoln Chafee, Tom Corbett, Sean Parnell (for examples). GoodDay (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with User GoodDay. Naming the elected successor is not confusing. It's useful.--89.13.63.123 (talk) 12:38, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

text: Furthermore, if anything unexpected were to happen to Quinn, Simon, Rauner or Sanguinetti, between now & inauguration day. I'm certain that we can quickly make the adjustments to the infobox. It's alright for the time being to have Rauner shown in the infobox, just leave out Quinn's departure date. PS: Again, this discussion should be moved to the appropiate WikiProject, as we should be discussing all politicial offices. PPS: AzureCitizen, why aren't you protesting Rauner's inclusion on the succsion box? GoodDay (talk) 12:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

text: Also, see the infoboxes of all the outgoing Lieutenat Governors, US Senators, US Representatives, etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 13:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

text: My advice: For all polticial bio infoboxes across Wikipedia, see if you can replace Succeeded by, with something like To be succeeded by or Scheduled to be succeeded by. GoodDay (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: "Successor" and/or "Succeeded by"

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