Talk:The Illuminatus! Trilogy/Archive 2

message: Thanks for asking our help - I haven't read the books so it will be limited. However I was thinking of putting on the infobox. However that will be difficult whilst the content stays as an article for the whole series. The infoboxs are really for use for individual titles. if the article became four, one for the series and three (one for each title) we could do some more with it. Does the significance of the book justify this though. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 08:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the infobox should cover the single omnibus edition which is the most commonly available version of the book (finding the 3 books individually is very uncommon). Zzzzz 10:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: where did the info that separate editions were published between 1969 and 1971 come from? in the interviews in the external links it says it never found a publisher till 1975. can somebody verify that info in the infobox and in the "release history" section? i'm looking here  and here  Zzzzz 11:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: oops - that was an assumption on my part - very dangerous - please correct with the besst information that you have - sorry. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 11:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know when the omnibus was first published.  That the books were written between 1969 and 1971, and then not published until 1975 is stated in Cosmic Trigger I: Final Secret of the Illuminati. Schizombie 17:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ok i used the IFSDB links above and Locus Mag (see references section) to correct.... but in the intro it still says an "omnibus" edition was published in 1975, but those sources say the first omnibus edition was only in 1984! which is correct? Zzzzz 12:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I still think the 1984 omnibus date is incorrect as I'm certain a friend of mine had a copy prior to that year, but anyway... I was able to solve the 69-71 date mystery at least. According to  this corresponds to the years Shea and Wilson actually wrote the trilogy. (It took awhile for them to find a publisher). 23skidoo 21:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Publication history

message: There's some precedent for including the book's outline in detail, Ulysses (novel) does.  So here it is, with page #s and interpolated brackets, italized info added by me:
Illuminatus!
I1, E3  Part I The Eye in the Pyramid
:I5, E5   Book One Verwirrung [Chaos] [Thesis]
::I7, E7   The First Trip, or Kether [The Crown] (From Dealey Plaza To Watergate...)
::I58, E58   The Second Trip, or Chokmah [Wisdom] (Hopalong Horus Rides Again) [I149.7]
::I91, E91   The Third Trip, or Binah [Understanding]
:I139, E139   Book Two Zweitracht [Discord] [Antithesis]
::I141, E141   The Fourth Trip, or Chesed [Mercy] (Jesus Christ on a Bicycle) [I142]
::I217, E217   The Fifth Trip, or Geburah [Severity] (Swift-Kick, Inc.) [I232]
I305, G5   Part II The Golden Apple
:G7   Prologue
:I311, G21   Book Three Unordnung [Confusion] [Synthesis]
::I312, G22   The Sixth Trip, or Tipareth [Beauty] (The Man Who Murdered God)
::I385, G95   The Seventh Trip, or Netzach [Victory] (The SNAFU Principle)
:I475, G185   Book Four Beamtenherrschaft [Bureaucracy] [Parenthesis]
::I476, G186   The Eighth Trip, or Hod [Glory] (Telemachus Sneezed)
I563, L5   Part III Leviathan
:L7   Prologue
::I566, L14   The Ninth Trip, or Yesod [Foundation] (Walpurgisnacht Rock)
:I655, L103   Book Five Grummet [Aftermath] [Paralysis]
::I657, L105   The Tenth Trip, or Malkuth [The Kingdom] (Farewell to Planet Earth)
:I733, L181   The Appendices
::I735, L183   Appendix Aleph (George Washington’s Hemp Crop) 
::I737, L185   Appendix Beth (The Illuminati Ciphers, Codes, and Calendars) 
::I742, L190   Appendix Gimmel (The Illuminati Theory of History) 
::I756, L204   Appendix Daleth (Hassan i Sabbah and Alamout Black) 
::I762, L210   Appendix Tzaddi (23 Skidoo) 
::I764, L212   Appendix Vau (Flaxscript and Hempscript)
::I767, L215   Appendix Zain (Property and Privilege) 
::I768, L216   Appendix Cheth (Hagbard’s Abdication) [I430, G140]
::I768, L216   Appendix Lamed (The Tactics of Magic) 
::I783, L231   Appendix Yod (Operation Mindfuck) 
::I788, L236   Appendix Kaph (The Rosy Double-Cross) 
::I790, L238   Appendix Teth (Hagbard’s Booklet) 
::I797, L245   Appendix Mem (Certain Questions that may still trouble some readers)
::I799, L247   Appendix Nun (Additional Information about Some of the Characters)
:looks good, not too sure where it would fit in the article though? 
::Yeah, it's fairly long ("As the...").  Could just include the Parts and Books and Appendices, or just the parts and books, or whatever's useful, maybe none of it. Schizombie 22:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if the above would be good for Wikibooks, like wikibooks:Atlas Shrugged? Schizombie 06:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: yes it would, but the atlas shrugged one has plot summaries for each section. this article *really* needs an expanded plot summary first though. plus one more section in themes about "numerology and synchronicity". then i think its WP:FAC ready. Zzzzz 20:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Outline

message: i guess the next task is to expand the plot summary somehow (see comment in peer review "the trilogy as it stands seems a bit tame"). hope you can help with that, as i barely remember any details at all... one easy way would be to use (i.e. summarize and paraphrase) the 6-page "what has gone before" prologue at the start of the individual edition of leviathan, which is not printed in the omnibus edition. i have it in pdf format, and could post it here, but one problem: its in german! 
:a pgraph or 2 about the use of numerology in the "themes" section would be cool as well- law of fives, 23 (numerology) etc. i have a feeling this could be a featured article with just a bit more work! Zzzzz 21:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got the GA and L volumes, so I have the prologues in English.  As for the numerology, there's the law of fives, and then the 23/17 phenomenon.  Simon Moon turns Joe Malik onto the 23 at a lecture I think, and later to the 17 in a long rambling letter, I don't recall who introduced the law of fives.  I'll try to get to this later. Schizombie 22:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: expanding plot summary

message: Most of the links coming in to The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu are related to The KLF and not Illuminatus. As part of my tidying and improving the KLF coverage here it would help readers' navigation if The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu was a redirect to The KLF or a simple dab page. I've gone for the latter. I don't see any need for either Justified Ancients (KLF, Illuminatus) to have seperate articles stray from their parents.
As a result, I have cut the following text and hope you can find a home for it here:
:The Justified Ancients of Mummu is one of the two protagonist 'secret societies' in "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson. In the books, the JAMs are in a seemingly endless struggle for control of human culture, government and power with their enemies, the Illuminati. Whereas the Illuminati's tactics are to restrict, govern and control the populace, the JAMs' aim is to bring about anarchy and an end to any possibility of ultimate control.
and:
:In Toronto, Ontario, Canada a group calling themselves the Justified Agents of Mummu stage public acts bent on provoking people to pay more attention, and promote mystery.
--kingboyk 18:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say the Toronto group is non-notable and doesn't need to be included anywhere.  Someone can probably make sure the JAMs are well-represented in the plot summary here. DenisMoskowitz 21:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That latter one is mentioned here Mummu (disambiguation) Schizombie 22:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd agree regarding the Toronto group. Mummu (disambiguation) is a messy page that could probably be a redirect too; alas the library is about to close and I have to go so I can't do anything about it right now. --kingboyk 21:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tidied into a nicer dab page. --kingboyk 14:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I think I can probably work the first paragraph into The KLF article, as a nice little overview of what the name they chose to use means. I'm feeling rotten at the moment so I'll have another look when I'm feeling better, unless someone else wants to oblige. --kingboyk 16:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've found a suitable home for the text in The_KLF#Mythology_and_references. --kingboyk 17:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu 

message: does this article need a Characters section, or can it stand without one? i guess all the major characters can be briefly described, as they show up, in the plot summary section. any opinions? Zzzzz 20:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure, I'll have to look at the articles for some other novels to see how common a feature that is. Schizombie 09:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Characters

message: Took this out:
:Many of Wilson's books, in particular the Cosmic Trigger series, have been embraced by the New Age community and can often be found in New Age bookstores alongside textbooks on tarot card reading, crystal energy, and Feng Shui, a fact many of his fans find amusing since Wilson frequently lampoons new age beliefs. 
It didn't seem to have a real place in the article, might fit into the Wilson or CT articles if it isn't in them. Schizombie 09:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Snip

message: A review, or a defense of the novel by the Rev. Stang of the Church of the SubGenius http://groups.google.com/group/alt.slack/browse_frm/thread/20ae83196319d769/7f24423c1c79b7b8?lnk=st&q=illuminatus&rnum=2&hl=en#7f24423c1c79b7b8 Possibly stick some in where "Bob" comes up, or else in the significance or influence sections. Schizombie 09:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: review by [[Ivan Stang]]

message: It's now 41 kb long, and 32Kb is the preferred maximum length.  Is this problematic, do you think?  The article looks pretty good, and yet there are still other things that are possibly deserving of being added to it. Шизомби 19:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: definitely not a problem. even 50K is acceptable. there is still room for more. i just created the FAC page at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Illuminatus! Trilogy, but havent done the official listing yet (leave another day for peer review comments). is the wording ok? Zzzzz 19:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so, although maybe add caps to the beginnings of sentences there.  The first time I read "the article discusses a 1970s work of popular fiction. in comparison with the only 2 other featured articles in that category" I read it as comparing the novel with the other two novels because I missed the period, but I was just reading it quickly.  Also, Illuminatus does have some multi-media aspect (play, comic), just not the same degree as Hitchhiker's, so maybe: "although Illuminatus doesn't have the same degree of "multi-media" aspects," or something like that.  Incidentally, had you seen in the Shea article that his son is a WP editor? Шизомби 20:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Has anyone invited him to participate in the article? It's interesting he uses the term "political science fiction" to refer to Illuminatus. 23skidoo 22:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article length

message: The Illuminoids by Neal Wilgus has an addendum mentioning "Skinnerball!!! by Don Joseph (1978) is a novel heavily influenced by Shea and Wilson's Illuminatus! but is mostly devoted to the rather unconvincing Dr. Adam Loons and his mostly unlikely sex life."  There's not much online about this book.  It's mentioned in Crime Fiction II : A Comprehensive Bibliography, 1749-1990 by Allen J. Hubin, which calls it "Skinnerball!! in Pursuit of Them."  Possibly The Illuminoids itself should be mentioned in the article, having many references to Illuminatus! in it, and an introduction by RAW.  I'm not sure if The Illuminoids or Neal Wilgus satisfy notability enough for their own articles, but good articles could be written on both. Шизомби 05:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure about the Illuminoids. I once tried to get it through interlibrary loan, and it was like I had asked for unobtainium! Which makes me suspect it is notable for the title only if anything. On the other hand, I never did get a copy, so... --maru  (talk) contribs 16:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't remember where I got my copy, Loompanics I think.  I have a letter from the author somewhere or other too, or used to have.  Amazon and Abebooks have copies of Illuminoids; there were several printings.  Amazon has about 19 books that appear to cite to it (three of them are by RAW). Шизомби 20:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence 

message: thx to everyone who contributed to or commented on this article in the past few weeks. this article is now up for "featured article" status. please go to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Illuminatus! Trilogy to vote Support or Oppose with your comments. Zzzzz 17:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i added a modified version of above to "themes" section, cheers Zzzzz 22:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: currently ZERO outstanding objections. Zzzzz 20:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, very  cool.  I wish I could make the writing more compelling, feel bad about that. Esquizombi 22:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

text: article promoted with 20 supports and zero objects. Zzzzz 11:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cool. Do you know when it's going to be featured on the front page? 23skidoo 19:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured article candidate

message: Numerology is accorded great credence by many of the characters, with the  Law of Fives in particular being frequently mentioned.  As Hagbard Celine states the Law of Fives in Appendix Gimmel "All phenomena are directly or indirectly related to the number five."  Another character, Simon Moon, identifies what he calls the "23 synchronicity principle", which he credits William S. Burroughs with having discovered.The Eye in the Pyramid, page 250  As with the previous law, it involves finding significance in the appearance of the number, and additionally in its "presen[ce] esoterically because of its conspicuous exoteric absence."The Eye in the Pyramid, page 111  One of the reasons he finds 23 significant is because "All the great anarchists died on the 23rd day of some month or other."  He also identifies a "23/17 phenomenon."  They're both tied to the Law of Fives, he explains, because 2 + 3 = 5, and 1 + 7 = 8  = 23.The Eye in the Pyramid, page 237
:i added a modified version of above to "themes" section, cheers Zzzzz 22:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Numerology

message: jkelly:
"The trilogy is an exercise in cognitive dissonance, with an absurdist plot built of seemingly plausible, if unprovable, components." 
celestianpower:
"dont use serial commas"
*anybody see any?
"merge numerology section"
*where could it be merged? she doesnt respond to my suggestion to expand it instead of merging it. is a one pgraph section illegal?
andrew levine:
"put principia discordia in lead"
*i didnt like the idea, but have had to put Discordianism in the lead now. 
tsavage:
"imprecise, casual, sometimes less than clear writing"
*inactionable as it stands
Tony:
"very poorly written"
*erm.....
:currently ZERO outstanding objections. Zzzzz 20:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, very  cool.  I wish I could make the writing more compelling, feel bad about that. Esquizombi 22:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

text: article promoted with 20 supports and zero objects. Zzzzz 11:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cool. Do you know when it's going to be featured on the front page? 23skidoo 19:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Outstanding objections

message: One of the most famous descriptions of Illuminatus is that it is "A Fairy Tale for paranoids". This appears on the back of the 1985 Dell omnibus in lieu of a review line. The quote is attributed to Wildblood "reviewing Illuminatus! in Illuminatus!". I'm not quite sure where this should go -- there is a section in which Wildblood's quoted as reviewing "a book very much like Illuminatus!" although the Dell edition would seem to indicate the character is reviewing Illuminatus. 23skidoo 16:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno, it might depend on how much input the authors had into the cover.  More praise I found for the book include Neil Barron (1995). Anatomy of Wonder : A Critical Guide to Science Fiction Fourth Edition, page 334 which refers to it as a "wild extravaganza" and consonantly calls it a "crazy compendium of contemporary concerns." Шизомби 04:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fairy tale for paranoids

message: Cool image, hadn't seen it before:
http://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/image.php?id=8848&embed=yes
: you can see scans of the entire programme (not just the cove) here: http://home.hetnet.nl/~motinni/Illuminatus!/ILL%20at%20Cottesloe/ILLCOTT.html
::Nice!  I wish they were a little better.  Would have been cool to see the play.  A couple mentions online of wanting Daisy Eris Campbell to stage a revival this year, but nothing definite, so probably just wishful thinking. Шизомби 12:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Play

message: Is there any indication that the name "Rite of Shiva" came from this book instead of being inspired by actual non-fictional rituals of Shiva, the major figure in Hinduism?  Jkelly 18:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! Jkelly 19:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Machines of Loving Grace 

message: the article The KLF about the early-90s british electronica band heavily influenced by illuminatus is now a featured article candidate. please vote support or object with your comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The KLF. thx! Zzzzz 12:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The KLF]]

message: I posted this on the talk page for The Killers (band), but I suspect no-one there understoof the reference, and probably just ended up at American Medical Association. Anyway, does anyone else draw any loose parallels between the AMA and The Killers? It's most emphatically not the kind of music I usually listen to, but I feel drawn in. B.Mearns*, KSC 12:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Killers in AMA?