Talk:Napoleon Chagnon

message: This article is a disgrace, particularly the front section (as of 2013/May/2). It's not written in the style I expect for an encyclopedic entry about a noted scientist. It reads more like a personal attack. Napolean Chagnon is a noted anthropologist best known for his field work among the Yanomamo, and his book "Ya̧nomamö: The Fierce People". But this information is not given in the front section. Instead, the second sentence reads "Patrick Tierney wrote a book Darkness in El Dorado, published in 2000 that accused Chagnon of exacerbating a measles epidemic among the Yanomamo people of the Amazon Basin...". You have to read 2/3 of the article to discover that this claim is false.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.183.136.7 (talk) 11:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  front section 

message: Chagnon does not appear to spell his first name with an accent over the e.  Nor is it spelled with an accent on the covers of his books. I suggest an article name change.--Birdmessenger 01:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright then, if no one cares, I'm changing the name.--Birdmessenger 23:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  spelling of name  

message: The following was removed since it lacked sources and clearly failed NPOV.
:It's very important to say that "Darkness in El Dorado" not contains only allegations, but it proves that Chagnon really introduced "sarampo" (sarampion) among the Yanomamo in the 1960s. There are many allegations, in fact, in the several (and, often, incoherent) articles of Chagnon. 
Gene Ward Smith 01:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV problem 

message: Chagnon is now retired. I edited the profile to reflect this. Tierney's accusations of misrepresentation and of failing to obtain informed consent of both the government and of the groups being studied (on at least 3 occasions) have both been verified.
Avery82 18:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: inaccuracies

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BetacommandBot (talk) 03:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Yanomamo Series.jpg

message: There is absolutely no mention of his Theoretical Orientation, only his legacy. Chagnon studied under Leslie White, who was a Materialist (McGee & Warms, "Anthropological Theory: An Introductory History, 2008", pg. 247, footnote 37). Certainly this is of significance when understanding Chagnon's approach in the field, especially in his earlier works. 144.167.31.63 (talk) 17:26, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theoretical Orientation 

message: Information regarding at which universities he has worked when would be welcome. Specifically, on the site of the U of Missouri's Department of Anthropology I could not find any confirmation that he is employed there. Wimvdam (talk) 01:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic career details? 

message: Nomoskedasticity added the statement, "Virtually every other scholar who has lived with the tribe differs with Chagnon." with the refence to http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16880-the-case-of-the-brutal-savage-poirot-or-clouseau-or-why-steven-pinker-like-jared-diamond-is-wrong
The article on truthout certainly does make this statement and references two specific pages in Chagnon's book backing it up. I checked in google books preview of these two pages and did not find any support for the truth-out statement. I deleted the section and then had it reverted by Nomoskedasticity. I hope this explains the reason for my revision, and I am going to undo Nomoskedasticity's reversion and then stop to avoid an edit war. However, I think especially given that this is a living person, that such a bold statement should require a more sound citation. I hope this way of dealing with this issue fits with wikipedia community standards.Pengortm (talk) 00:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to have a look at WP:OR.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:43, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not happy about heavy cricicism in a BLP starting with "Some have argued", "some have critized". In a BLP criticim should be more specific. I looked for a source for "sensationalist and colonialist", but the source was a site with many links and those I checked didn't actually say "sensationalist" nor "colonialist". More specific attribution and source would be welcome. Iselilja (talk) 06:52, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

text: I don't think I was doing original research by checking the citations in the reference provided. Perhaps I am mistaken or have missed that part of the wiki definition of original research? Happy to be educated about the norms here. Pengortm (talk) 18:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You are doing your own research in order to determine whether a source is or is not correct.  The source given verifies the claim, and your own view that the source is wrong is not relevant.  What you seem to have missed is that the footnote number in question (#13) appears twice in that article.  Quite possibly, the first instance is an error and doesn't belong there; perhaps the source given in footnote 13 relates to the sentence in the subsequent paragraph which is also footnoted to #13.  After all, we might not expect Chagnon himself to say that all other scholars disagree with him.  Anyway it doesn't matter: as a wikipedia editor it's not up to you to decide that a source meeting WP:RS is wrong -- making that determination falls squarely within WP:OR.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is inappropriate to include unverifiable information--especially for a living person. As well, I worry that your edits are not in the spirit of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I'm not going to touch what you have changed back here to avoid an edit war, but do hope other editors can weigh in and set one of us straight. If nobody else weighs in I think the next step is probably to request a third opinion WP:3   Pengortm (talk) 00:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I do appreciate the constructive approach to discussion here.  But I continue to hold that the information is verified by the source given.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: "Virtually every other scholar who has lived with the tribe differs with Chagnon."

message: I've removed this latest addition because Survival International fails to meet RS guidelines. It is an "organization that champions tribal peoples around the world. We help them defend their lives, protect their lands and determine their own futures." It also states that the organisation's "loyalty is always primarily towards tribal peoples; we pass on any helpful information we have, and only accept information on that basis." That's about as biased as a source gets: intended to promote specific action, only disseminating information that promotes that cause. No evidence that this organisation/website has any sort of fact checking process. The webpage in question is also clearly an opinion piece, and thus not sufficient for a BLP.
Once again, I'd like to remind everyone that for contentious statements in BLPs the standard for RS is stricter than for other articles. Essentially we need non-opinion sources published by mainstream journals or publishing houses. Anything published by an organisation with an agenda is unlikely to pass muster unless we can show that it has reasonable levels of editorial control and fact checking.  Mark Marathon (talk) 22:47, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Open Letter Condemning Chavignon. 

message: I've reverted this section because a reference check failed. The quoted pages can be found at Google books(http://books.google.com./books?id=E54ExS7d350C&pg=PA7&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q=%22later%20he%20approaches%22&f=false). I can find no mention of Chagnon on the pages referenced. Upon searching the whole book, I can find only 3 references to Chagnon. Two of those are in the foreword, not written by Lizot and not obviously critical of Chagnon. The other is in the bibliography.
While I am still assuming Good Faith, an explanation of this persistent insertion of contentious material in a BLP without adequate referencing would go a long way to maintaining that view. It appears to be approaching WP:BALASPS and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS level. It might be worth your while to read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, in summary, if you want to spread the word about the flaws in Chagnons research, you’ll have to wait until it’s been picked up in mainstream journals first.Mark Marathon (talk) 06:15, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: A piece by Marshall Sahlins in the Washington Post ought to do the trick.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:23, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless I am missing something, that article is simply a book review for "Darkness at El Dorado", a subject already covered in detail in its own section.Mark Marathon (talk) 08:32, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's okay -- it can be used at other points in the article as well.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:33, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

text: "most of the criticisms of Chagnon rehearsed by Tierney have been circulating among anthropologists for years"…  and please both of you learn to thread your comments properly so that others can read the section better. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so it contains at least some material that isn't taken from "DAED". But since that means the source is an analysis/opinion piece, it can't be used as a reference for a statement of fact of concerning third parties. So it still fails to meet RS for the claim that other anthropologists are critical.and FWIW my comments are threaded.Mark Marathon (talk) 09:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You're incorrect -- it is not an opinion piece.  You seem not to understand much about academic research.  This source is an excellent one for supporting the text in question.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:04, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Heh. As a professional researcher with a PhD and numerous publications under my belt, I flatter myself that know something about academic research. But maybe you are right and the editors and reviewers of my publications have all been misled. It seems the only way we can settle this is to take it to WP:RSN.Mark Marathon (talk) 03:29, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lizot, "Tales of the Yanomami" 

message: I've moved this to the controversies section since it doesn't seem at all relevant to Chagnon's career. There's no suggestion that this criticism affected his career, for example. Criticism of methodology by other researchers is par for the course in any research field. It's not a career influencing event.
I would also like to see a quote of where Sahlins is critical of Chagnon in the reference cited. As per the discussion above, there is a statement from Sahlins that others were criticising Chagnon. And there are numerous critical statements quoted/paraphrased by Shalin but originating in "DAED". But I can't see any statement that unambiguously originated from Sahlins that is critical of Chagnon. I won't remove this section immediately because it seems clear to me from the tone of the piece that Sahlins is indeed critical. But for a BLP we need something much less ambiguous than "tone".Mark Marathon (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I notice that both the other editors have made posts since the protection was imposed. Would either of you like to discuss this, or can I take it hat consensus has been reached and ask for the block to be lifted?Mark Marathon (talk) 07:44, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marshall Sahlins criticisms  

message: I've fully protected the article for two weeks due to an edit war after studying the January 20 3RR report filed by User:Nomoskedasticity. Please use this time to follow the steps of WP:Dispute resolution and try to get consensus. In my opinion you'll get the quickest answer at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard but use any method that seems appropriate. Any admin can lift the protection if agreement is reached. EdJohnston (talk) 17:32, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full protection 

message: :The article should mention that Chagnon was elected as a member of the National Academy of Sciences in 2012  Pengortm (talk) 17:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested edits for after disputes are resolved and protection lifted 

message: "Allegations that he played a role in communal violence and introduced disease prompted his early retirement.[3]" I don't see where ref 3 says that he retired, for any reason. It would be clearer to say that, amid mutual recriminations,  his permission to do fieldwork was effectively withdrawn in 1993 by local authorities after he came into conflict with the Catholic church missionaries. It would be better to quote Brazilian Anthropological Association saying Chagnon's conclusions were dubious and warning they could have 'terrible political consequences', that is is criticism by qualified people. The section "Researcher contamination in Yanomamö findings that says "Some[who?] have argued that the Yanomamö became violent after Chagnon arrived to conduct his research and offered machetes, axes, and shotguns" should point out the missionaries were accused by Chagnon of giving the Yanomamö shotguns according to an 2000 LA Times aticle. Overagainst (talk) 20:11, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: "Shut out of the jungle because he was so polarizing, he took early retirement from the University of California at Santa Barbara in 1999. “The whole point of my existence as a human being and as an anthropologist was to do more and more research before this primitive world disappeared,” he told me bitterly." I think his book also says this.Pengortm (talk) 23:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The lede ending that has been reverted to  "Allegations that he played a role in communal violence and introduced disease prompted his early retirement.[3]" is completely unacceptable. We can't say things like that without a explicit independent source. You have failed to provide one, and offer your interpretation on a couple of sources. Chagnon is a living person may I remind you. Neither in his interview or book has Chagnon or a reporter made statements that support the aforementioned ending of the lede. The source does not say what is claimed on any reasonable reading. Him choosing to take early retirement from a particular uni position, because he couldn't do the field work he wanted is what the source (Chagnon himself) is saying. But, the lede is quite clearly giving the impression that he was forced out because of the accusations that he had caused communal violence and disease outbreaks. In fact the allegation, which was specifically of having supplied weapons that were used for 'communal violence' was made by him about the missionaries, as well as by them about him. The allegations followed an incident when a  bishop insisted that Chagnon had no authority and had to leave. Chagnon had to leave because he alienated the missionaries of the Salesian order who are quite influential in the country. If that controversy is mentioned 'mutual recriminations' would cover it for the lede. The disease allegation made in a book was well publicised, and so is the fact scientific authorities said the immunisations referred to could not have caused disease.Overagainst (talk) 14:20, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed that there is no need for that section in the lead unless better and more careful sourcing of this information is found by someone. Thanks. The issues of accusations and his retirement are addressed well in the rest of the article as I recall (not to say those sections aren't open to debate, discussions and improvements of course). Pengortm (talk) 20:06, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Lede, Researcher contamination subsection

message: It is of course absurd to try to use the loaded term "claim" to throw doubt on Sahlins' own public statements about why he quit the Academy. Sahlins is a reliable source for his own motivations. Not a single source in existence has suggested he might have had another underlying reason.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The source cited suggest Chagnon is a secondary reason for his quitting and NAS's involvement in military efforts/consulting as the primary one (From the source: "in responding to the call for research in military effectiveness of last October by saying, I’ve had enough, ‘please accept my resignation from the Academy’," "These research agendas, however, were not the only reason I resigned from the NAS. I also considered my membership an embarrassment when Napoleon Chagnon was elected to the Academy in May of 2012"). I also note that you seemed perfectly ok with using a loaded term to describe Dreger's public statements as an outsider despite no evidence buttressing this.--Pengortm (talk) 14:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not write that Dreger "claims" to be an outsider, I wrote that she considers herself to be one, which is arguably a more accurate representation of her actual statement in the article and which is exactly not a loaded term.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

text: I continue to maintain that the passage in question does not belong on Chagnon's career section since it is more about Sahlins and controversies/critiques of Chagnon's work. Yes, the general controversy is a part of Chagnon's career--and it is already mentioned there--but this part belongs below in the controversy section--Pengortm (talk) 14:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Sahlins quitting

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article is tagged with a "neutrality of this article is disputed" tag from Feb 2015. I am not seeing where this case is made on the talk page and am thinking this should be removed.-Pengortm (talk) 20:21, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I make the case a few sections above this one. Chagnon is primarily known for being controversial and for being a posterchild for the "science" and "evolution" approach to anthropology against the currently dominant "social critique" and "social construction" approach. His work has been the subject of substantial criticism from the anthropology establishment. The article doesnt cover the critiques against him in any detail, inspite of the fact that this is the substantial part of the literature about Chagnon. Hence the tag is warranted, untill the controversy for which he is known is better represented for the reader. The lead is an excellent example of the obvious avoidance of the controversy surrounding Chagnon - it states that he has been called the most controversial anthropologist, but makes no mention of anything that could explain why he would be controversial.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:26, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. thanks for replying so fast. Unless I am missing something you have not provided reliable sources along with suggested verbiage to this effect? Your own personal knowledge is not sufficient for this. Apologies if I am forgetting or neglecting where this has previously been provided. -Pengortm (talk) 20:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. Most of the critical sources are already included in the additional readings, and I have added a string of citations after the one critical statement in the controversy section. There are truckloads of critical sources, they have just not been used yet. Currently the lead is not an adequate summary of the article since it doesnt mention any of the critiques or controversies. That alone is reason enough for the POV tag.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia does not work by appeals to authority. If you have reliable sources to share by all means please take advantage of your expertise and experience to help educate and improve the article. However, your words that this is an accurate summary of uncited literature is not sufficient.- Pengortm (talk) 02:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed neutrality? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: This article is about a controversial figure, so I know that this question is probably going to step on somebody's tail, but I noticed a couple issues from reading this article.  Such as reference to work by Patrick Tierney as verification of facts about his life; that particular source should not be considered reliable source (given that he had an active role in the controversy, and was found to have fabricated many of his own sources) and thus is an inappropriate citation as a verification of certain facts.   The article also mentions that Chagnon was barred from Venezuela as a result of "the controversy"; this seems to be original research, as one cited source is unreliable, and other sources actually indicate that he was barred from the country directly because of his personal conflict with the Salesian priests; meaning that it was due to local politics and his well-known prickly personality rather than the merits of his academic work; but the phrasing here on wikipedia heavily implies that it was a direct result of public rejection his academic work which is not the case and not stated by the sources. Ironlion45 (talk) 19:40, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: These concerns seem reasonable to me (although I have not looked back over the particulars in the article). I suggest editing boldly and if other editors disagree we can discuss further as needed.-Pengortm (talk) 16:57, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are all attributed facts here accurately reflecting source material? 

message: The article states that "Chagnon's work with the Yanomamö was widely criticized by other anthropologists". Is this a neutral assessment? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an entire section...  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:22, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Widely criticized - NPOV?