Talk:Bardock

message: FUNimation and earlier dubbs named him "Bardock". I thought that Wikipedia is supposed to go by written text names. In this case, the Viz manga names source. This applied for the Krillin article to be Kuririn, Tien Shinhan article to be titled Tenshinhan, etc. Even in the translated English manga he is called "Burdock". Shouldn't we go by this? ----Power level(Dragon Ball) 15:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had this same discussion on the Majin Buu article. I suggested changing the article to Djinn Boo (because I thought that we were going by the English manga names) and it worked, but it was reverted shortly after. I really don't know what determines the name of a Dragon Ball article, but what we should be doing is using the English manga names for all DB articles, not a manga name on one page (Son Goku, for example) and an anime name on another (like Bardock). We need to come up with some sort of agreement on how the DB articles are named (if there isn't one already). // Sasuke-kun27 20:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been discussed, were going to have to use the Viz Manga names, since the manga has the highest source of canon in fiction, hence, Bardock should definitely be changed to Burdock (Dragon Ball). // Power levelStacy's Mom 21:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Ever heard of the vegetable, burdock?  That is an English word, and Toriyama has said it's derived from that same vegetable (just like all of the other Saiyans, such as Kakarrot (carrot), Vegeta (the word "vegetable), Nappa (the cabbage), Raditz (radittsu in Japanese, derived from radisshu, or radish), Tullece (lettuce), Paragas (asparagas), and Broli (broccoli).
Uh huh... and the discussion here is whether the name is simply 'Burdock' or if it's slightly different, or "derived", from the word 'burdock'. Some Saiyan names are exactly like the word (Nappa) while others are slight variations on the word (Broli). From what we've learned, it's probably 'Burdock' and not 'Bardock' or 'Barduck'. -- DesireCampbell 22:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Toriyama named him "Burdock" in the manga

message: So, here's what I've got:
:
:  "Burdock" -- which would be pronounced bur dock
: バードック -- baa do ku
:バーダック -- baa dah ku
:  (Bur)ダ(ck) -- bur dah k
: Burdock
Yeah, so, "yay, whole lotta useless work".
So 'burdock' would normally be バードック in katakana, and Toriyama (apparently) decided to change one of the characters (so it's a reference to burdock not just 'burdock'). But the kana he used instead of ド was ダ, which (with a 'k' sound added on) sound exactly like 'dock'. The romanized name should reflect the original spelling and show the change from that word - but it already does (Just like Vegeta and Videl, but that's another explanation). Unless someone wants to romanize it as 'Burdahk' or 'Burdawk', I suggest 'Burdock'.
:That said, 'Bardock' is a correct romanization, but doesn't hold as true to the original word.
So, who's up for a Move Request to Burdock (Dragon Ball)? -- DesireCampbell 16:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support the move to Burdock (Dragon Ball). ----Power level(Dragon Ball) 15:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another section about the name? Joy! 

message: First, I'd like to ask anyone who knows how to archive everything above. The page is cluttered and needs to be cleaned. I'd do it, I just don't know how.
Secondly, I'm sure everyone means well, but the opening paragraphs where it says that "Burdock's name is a pun on 'burdock', which is an herb", the second "burdock" should stay lowercase, it's not a proper noun.
Now on to the Name section. Perhaps I've just not fleshed it out enough to make it understand able -but I'm worried that a long drawn out explanation would clutter the article. I'll expand on the explanation and ask y'all to point out where it should be cut down.
===Name===
Burdock's name is, like all other Saiyans, a pun on a plant. In this case, the herb burdock. In Japanese foreign words are transliterated into a special alphabet called "katakana". These characters are very much like English letters in that they are sounds without meanings (as opposed to Kanji which are whole words in a single character). The word "burdock" transliterated into katakana is バードック (bādokku pronounced like "baa doe coo") but the character's name is written as バーダック (bādakku pronounced like "baa dah coo"), changing the do character to da. This character change actually makes the kana sound more like "Burdock" to English speakers than it did before, and that makes it difficult to accurately romanize the word to show the pun. Normally one would simply spell out the word exactly as the kana sounds, in this case badakku. But knowing the word is based on an English word it is common to use that spelling if at all possible. The problem arises in the character change from ド (do) to ダ (da). To show the change the romanization should mirror the change as well. The ダ (da) character replaced the "do" part of "burdock", so it would seem obvious to change the word to "burdack" - but such a change would alter the pronunciation of the change. The new spelling "burdack" doesn't have the same syllable sound a ダ (da). In fact, the only English spelling that would keep the same sound would be "burdawk" or "burdock".
So the word could conceivably be romanized as "Burdock", "Barduck", "Badack" or any combination of those syllables. 
It's just that it seems a bit redundant, but taking things out makes it more ambiguous. I think most of the explanation about katakana can be taken out (a link to katakana should suffice) but I'm not sure how indepth the explanation the romanization should go. 
--DesireCampbell 21:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name section and other fixes 

message: Burdock's name is, like all other Saiyans, a pun on a plant. In this case, the herb burdock. In Japanese foreign words are transliterated into a special alphabet called "katakana". These characters are very much like English letters in that they are sounds without meanings (as opposed to Kanji which are whole words in a single character). The word "burdock" transliterated into katakana is バードック (bādokku pronounced like "baa doe coo") but the character's name is written as バーダック (bādakku pronounced like "baa dah coo"), changing the do character to da. This character change actually makes the kana sound more like "Burdock" to English speakers than it did before, and that makes it difficult to accurately romanize the word to show the pun. Normally one would simply spell out the word exactly as the kana sounds, in this case badakku. But knowing the word is based on an English word it is common to use that spelling if at all possible. The problem arises in the character change from ド (do) to ダ (da). To show the change the romanization should mirror the change as well. The ダ (da) character replaced the "do" part of "burdock", so it would seem obvious to change the word to "burdack" - but such a change would alter the pronunciation of the change. The new spelling "burdack" doesn't have the same syllable sound a ダ (da). In fact, the only English spelling that would keep the same sound would be "burdawk" or "burdock".
So the word could conceivably be romanized as "Burdock", "Barduck", "Badack" or any combination of those syllables. 
It's just that it seems a bit redundant, but taking things out makes it more ambiguous. I think most of the explanation about katakana can be taken out (a link to katakana should suffice) but I'm not sure how indepth the explanation the romanization should go. 
--DesireCampbell 21:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: :Add  * Support  or  * Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
* Strongly Oppose: This has already been decided since no one argued about it anymore. WP:MANGA goes strictly by romanizations (likely Hepburn), name puns, and manga texts and no more; not anime filler specials, not toys/collectibles, not ads or American merchandise, and most definitely NOT any fan related sites. Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed broken manga link. By the way, that DVD cover title is spelled wrong (somewhat) if you compare it to DesireCampbell's "Burdock" proof -->  Forget about the Stacy's Mom link, that was just, wierd... Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To clear up the apparent confusion; "Bardock" is the name given to the character in the English dub - "Burdock" is the name use in the Japanese translated subtitles which, according to WP:Anime we should be using.--DesireCampbell 01:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Hell y'all, saw this:
:In the Dragon Ball series, nearly all Saiyans are named using English-language vegetable puns. Burdock's name (Bādakku) is a pun on burdock, a herb. In English, the pun is either rendered directly (as 'Burdock') or retaining the initial 'bā' sound (as 'Bardock').
And wanted to know if there's a better way to word this. I know what [whoever wrote this part] means by "retaining the initial ba- sound", but it kind of makes it sound like 'Bur' is an inaccurate romanization. To recap: the word "burdock" is written as バードック (ba-dokku) in katakana, but the character's name is written as バーダック (ba-dakku). The ba- sound comes from "bur", so romanizing バー (ba-) to "bur" is actually more correct that "bar" in this case, even though it would probably normally be romanized as "bar".
But I'm stumped as to what would convey the same message more clearly. --DesireCampbell 13:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, two things. Burdock as referred to here is not a vegetableherb. The plant is sometimes called an herb (it's a thistle), but this is a pun on the Japanese food (gobo), which is the root of the plant. It should be noted as a vegetable. Second, the loss of the "r" sound within words is common in transliterated Japanese. For example, "center" becomes "centaa", just as in many Commonwealth accents. You could perhaps note it as, "In English, the pun is either rendered directly as 'Burdock', or transliterated as 'Bardock' to reflect the Japanese pronunciation." Dekimasu 10:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quick question 

message: Could someone more knowledgeable about Japanese than I answer one quick question for me; are we ABSOLUTELY sure that Bardock/Burdock's name is meant to be the LITERAL English word for the vegetable/herb/plant thingie or a PUN for the word? I ask this because such a scenario was the make or break deal for naming Freeza as such and not "Freezer". In other words; it was agreed that "Furiza" was intended to be a pun on the english word for Freezer and not the actual English word itself. Hence the article being named "Freeza". Just as likewise it was very recently agreed that "Bebi" was intended as the actual English word "Baby", and not a pun on the word, hence the article move to Baby. 
I ask this question because I read through most of the discussion and I didn't see this point brought up at all like I did with Bebi. And if it was, then I missed it and you have my apologies for wasting space here.
Thus if the Japanese kana translates as the straight up romanji for the English word Burdock, then fine. But if not, then the name ought to be a little different from the real word (hence Bardock) to reflect that it's a pun on the word and not the actual word itself, as that very distinction was the deciding factor in the above two examples. These are IMO the trickiest kinds of names to translate in Dragon Ball, and ought to be handled with care for such details. Fuad Ramses 11:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you may be incorrectly interpreting the katakana transliteration. バーダック is a better direct representation of the English pronunciation than バードック (at least in the case of American English, which is what is taught in schools in Japan). Dekimasu 07:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah Faud Ramses, I had the same problem at first. I watched the TV special and it clearly sounds like an "a" rather than a "u." But I think a better example, or at least more similar example than Videl would be Baata. Pun- Butter. FUNi name Burter, Viz name Butta. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the "aa" be equivolent to our "ar," "ur," and "er?" It can lead to some confusion from time to time, so in this case it does make sense to go as close to the pun as possible. Onikage725 09:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  So sorry to ask this but: yet ANOTHER question on the decision to move Bardock to Burdock.