Talk:Handloading

message: Someone with more knowledge on the subject than I should include information about reloading safety; there are, as we gun owners know, significant risks, even for experienced reloaders.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.157.124.121 (talk) 04:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Safety

message: An anonymous user at 69.243.38.8 removed the information on heating and quenching the brass to anneal it, with the following comment:
(→Maximizing case life - Removed bad science on annealing.. quenching does not stop the annealing process... it prevents it.. annealing requires the item cool s-l-o-w-l-y, quenching causes hardness)
While slow cooling is the processed used to anneal steel (since you want the grain strucutre in the annealed steel as large as possible), brass is a different matter.  Once the brass reaches 660F, the work hardening has been undone, and the cooling doesn't really have an impact on the hardness of the case mouth.  The quenching is done to prevent heat transfer to the base of the case, which should remain harder than the mouth.  Calling this process "annealing" is slightly misleading; what is really happening is a from of controlled heat treatment.  Just like tempering steel, you carefully raise the temperature to the level which will reduce the hardness to the desired level, then you quench immediately; leaving the metal at the tempering temperature too long will "age" the metal, and reduce the hardness further.  In fact, quenching doesn't really stop the softening process, it merely slows it down by many orders of magnitude.  Even at room temperature, metals will loose their hardness over time, but as the time/temperature curve is exponential, it will take thousands of years at least before the loss of hardness becomes noticable.  scot 14:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Annealing

message: I cleaned up the brief intro, and reordered some sections; but I hesitate to further edit for brevity something that is uncommonly well-written for Wikipedia, and reads like it was lifted directly from what may be a copyrighted source.  Comments? -- Mukrkrgsj 08:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll have to take my word on it, but I started editing the article at this point, compare that to the end of my first run at the article here.  Since I know I didn't copy anything (wrote a bunch of it from memory, in fact) I'll take this as a compliment.  :)  scot 21:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If you read the description, they "bond the copper jacket to the lead core one molecule at a time"; this is done via an electroplating process.  See here for the patent number applicable to the Gold Dot bullets, and here for the patent description. scot 20:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Another plagiarized article?

message: I know I added a lot of pictures, but I think many of the things described in the article are unfamiliar and hard to picture for those who aren't experienced with handloading. If someone wants to take a better crack at layout, please do. Plus if you need any additional or slightly different pictures, please suggest such. I'll give it a try. Arthurrh 21:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you've got the image handy on your computer, why not rotate the top image (bullet, powder, case, primer) 90 degrees, and set it opposite the TOC in the top paragraph?  scot 22:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: #Broadness: Pass
#Well-written: Pass
#Images: Pass
#Factually accurate: Pass
#Neutral POV: Pass
#Stable: Pass
Great job on the article. Passed easily.Mitch32contribs 20:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just noticed that the article was passed, but I have some concerns about the lack of in-line citations.  The majority of the sections go completely unreferenced.  At the risk of second-guessing the original reviewer, I hesitate to say this article passes GA criteria. Drewcifer3000 21:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:scot was contacted on this subject and will begin inkining the citations.--SidiLemine 16:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool.  I'll hold off on a GA review for a while then. Drewcifer 19:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My error, sorry about that.Mitch32contribs 21:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The GA criteria is in the process of changing at the moment, and the requirements for in-line citations are being relaxed a bit.  So, I'm happy to say that the in-line citations thing is no longer a problem. Drewcifer 00:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Review 

message: The citations are coming up:
Whassup?  Trekphiler 07:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be more specific regarding the improvement of this article. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 06:56, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do you see what I see? 

message: The legal section is misleading. Firearms manufacturers don't advise against using handloads, but rather everyone advises sticking to SAAMI pressure specifications. You should be able to easily handload to the limit of the pressure capacity of the weapon. The way the section was previously worded shows ignorance to the fact that most handloading is done to lessen the pressure of the charge. This is touched upon elsewhere in the article so I cannot figure out how any other interpretation could be considered. To make it short and sweet - the manufacturers are saying that the only loads they approve of are loads which have been tested. Exceed the recommended maximum load and they won't promise anything.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.150.11.25 (talk) 21:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, and how are you going to prove that that load that you just fired, which blew up your gun, was within SAAMI specs?  Are you personally ISO 9000 certified?  Ruger flat out says "do not use", and Remington and Smith and Wesson both state that handloaded ammunition must be pressure tested, which is beyond the abilities of most handloaders.  This is the same reason you're not supposed to use handloads in a defensive gun, because of the lack of provability.  Just because most handloaders are competent isn't relevant, when there are the rest of them that will keep pushing until (if they're lucky) the blow out primer pockets or (if they're not so lucky) blow up guns.  I once made the utterly idiotic mistake of trusting someone else's handloads, and got a face full of powder blowby from an XP-100, and ended up having to pry the brass from the bolt face with a pair of pliers--the primer pocket was blown out so far, the case head pressure formed around the extractor.  scot (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal section 

message: This is a very interesting article. However it's very long. There are several ways it could be split into multiple articles without losing any text.  For example, the whole "equipment" could standalone. The material on "bullets" could be moved to that article. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Rezin (talk) 21:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long article - split? 

message: *The concept created here that there is a difference between handloading and reloading (the same thing actually) has no merit.  The statement that handloaders buy all components new, is typically untrue.  
*Mentioning boxer primed cases in the first paragraph, is out of order and unnecessary and is inaccurate without mentioning also Berdan primed cases.
*There is no historical context in this article and the statement that "handling referred to the private manufacture of cartridges and shells from new components" is false.  The equipment to enable handloading did not exist for quite some time after metallic cartridges were put in production.  Handloading is primarily the activity of an individual who has as it's reason for accomplishment several possible reasons most of which are a factor in the activity.  
*There is no sourcing or retrievable references for these comments.  A mention of a McPherson has no merit as it's unsupported. 
*There is a great deal of variance with commercial, not handloaded, ammunition, some is good and some is mediocre.  Similarly handloads are variable in quality depending on the person who makes them.  The unreferenced claim appears to be biased.
*As a handloader for several decades, I reject that there is a distinction between handloads and reloads.  Whether loaded once or more the quality will not change because of the number of loadings.  It can change due to the quality of the reloader, who might not be achieving a good consistent result. As a general rule, a properly assembled handload is as good in quality as the GOOD commercial ammunition.  But if a handloader is careless a handloaded cartridge may be as bad as a BADLY loaded commercial cartridge.
*The name McPherson being unreferenced has not authority or purpose.
*Looking at references:
** Reference 1: nonte Not properly specified, source is not found, cannot be verified
** Reference 2: Taffin  - Not found, cannot be found searching Guns Magazine web site
** Reference 3: nonte  See ref1
** Reference 4: nonte  See ref1
** Reference 5: dead link
** Reference 6: Security violation link
** Reference 8: not found
** Reference 9: see ref 1
** Reference 10: book reference cannot be verified
** Reference 11: Incorrect reference to Forster Resizing dies.  correct is: Forster Sizing and Seater Dies Catalog
** Reference 12: not found
** Reference 13: see ref1
** Reference 14: Incorrect reference  Correct is Forster Case Trimmers
** Reference 15: see ref1
** Reference 16: Citation not found
** Reference 17: Reference points to wrong area should be Flash Hole Burr
** Reference 18: see ref 1
** Reference 19: Citation Not Found
** Reference 20:     "       
** Reference 22: Text doesn't relate directly to the reference
** Reference 23: Citation not found
** Reference 24: Citation not found
** Reference 25: Citation not found  Obviously FALSE since Remington is a major supplier of components.
** Reference 26: Not found, also biased use of source. Ayoob recommended the Cor-Bon 115gr 135p fps 9mmx19mm Parabellum as the best defense load. It EXCEEDS the performance of almost all handload recommendation for 9mm Par.
** Reference 28: Not found
** Reference 29: Citation not found
** Reference 30: Citation not found
** Reference 33: Not found  This refers to reloading rimfire cartridges which is a totally disreputable concept.  The section mentioning this should be removed.
** Reference 35: see ref1
** Reference 36: a: Contradicts the text of the article, assumptions are made in the article that are not truly supported by the reference
** Reference 37: see ref 1
** Reference 38: book reference cannot be verified
** Reference 39: book reference to an encyclopedia, usually not a good reference
** Reference 40: Citation Not found
** Reference 41: Citation Not found prejudicial to one brand of powder BIAS
** Reference 42: see ref1
** Reference 43: Not found
** Reference 44: see ref1
** Reference 46-7: Not found probable bias toward one brand of bullet
** Reference 48: Not found
** Reference 50: Not found
The Reference to Nonte is repeated 43 times. That makes the VAST majority of "information" on this page from a single source which is copyrighted and inaccessible.
Of the 50 reference headers, 26 are either not found of the page pointed to does not support the text.Digitallymade (talk) 01:12, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The standard procedure, if you find a piece of information with no reliable source, is to add  to the piece of information. Unless you're the copyright holder, there's no reason to focus on the copyrighting - and facts can't be copyrighted anyway. Note - I have no intention of getting into a protracted discussion about this. I've explained the procedure. Exemplo347 (talk) 07:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No comment are more than half the sources being bad or that 1 source is used so often.  I could put  and  and  all over this page.  I could also rewrite it to be correct.  But, I don't feel that I know enough wikipedia "style" to do so. Digitallymade (talk) 12:06, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources do not have to be accessible on line. They merely have to be reliable. while many books and magazine, newspaper or journal articles are available online, many more are not. Just because a particular page does not show up on Googlebooks on a particular day does not mean that it is a dead link, either.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:53, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know that the inaccessible source is reliable or not. At this point I'm just checking for dead links and bad references. There is too much reliance on a single source. Have YOU ever heard of someone who handloads all new components as a regular action?  I have not.Digitallymade (talk) 18:16, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, partner, you can examine the source. Was it put out by a reiable publisher? (not so much on ammo or gun articles, but for history sciences, biography I look to those published by University presses as the top of the line). For our purposes in these types of articles I look for things published by the military, Jane's, etc as top tier. As for reloading: Some folks do that, buy all new components all the time. I have done it a few times (when I started 338 Lapua, 500 S&W, etc. but yeah after that first shot, it's all used brass again).  I do not see the long term logic in it, but some people like to waste their money.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

text: What you need to understand, and understand quickly, is that the personal opinions of Wikipedia editors aren't important. What matters is the sourcing - read through WP:RS. The sources do not need to be online, and if, as you say, you don't know if a source is or isn't reliable then why are you intent on removing the reference to it? I suggest you discuss your sourcing concerns at the Reliable Sources noticeboard, instead of attempting to get information removed willy-nilly. Approach Wikipedia editing from the "adding information" side, rather than the "removing information" side - look for a source you think is reliable, rather than removing sources that you don't even know aren't reliable, and there'll be much less need for you to explain yourself all the time. Exemplo347 (talk) 18:46, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I said nothing about removing it. What I said was that the authority cannot be examined, and since the editor who created it seems to have had a problem with posting sources which are inaccurate, this creates a doubt about his use of that source as well. The claim that there is a difference between handloading and reloading coupled with the claim that people buy all new components to handload, casts doubt on the neutrality of the writer. Digitallymade (talk) 20:13, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of those sources can be verified, sometimes a trip to the local library or local bookstore can help you out.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:34, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

text: So add  to the top of the article, and move on. When someone comes along with reliable sources that contradict the statements, it'll be sorted. There's no rush - Wikipedia has no deadlines so just leave it there. Exemplo347 (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors and bad references mass copying of one source, dead link, citations not found at links etc. etc. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article uses the word “recent” referring to events 10 years ago. Suggest rewriting to add specific dates. Exampke - “ recent increases in lead prices..” should read “ Rising lead prices in <date> Twarr12000 (talk) 08:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  When us recent?