Talk:Marc Lemire/Archive 1

message: I've protected this page because of the anon IP vandalism and now the creation of a sockpuppet. No point in waiting until more of them appear. If anyone would like to edit the page, just give me a shout and I'll unprotect; otherwise, I'll leave it locked for a day or two. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:02, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
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I submit that the facts and neutrality of this article on the Mr. Lemire should be disputed.  The article was largely edited by [name removed] who is known to be a member of Anti-Racist Action and is personally antagonistic towards anyone on the opposite end of the political spectrum. Dogmatic 17:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And please stop spamming talk pages with your accusations about editors. -Willmcw 21:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protected

message: I blanked this article down to a super duper sub stub because it contained highly inflammatory claims without any sources at all.  It is extremely important that all such claims be properly sourced at all times.  If you ever see an article like this, and a history like this, the proper response is to either fix the article or stub it, because leaving up inflammatory claims (by you as the author of the article) without references is not scholarly.--Jimbo Wales 22:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you explain the  tags everywhere? It seems more like trying to hide something by just removing it because some povs consider it to be inflammatory. I think it would be better to put up a  tag and let people know that this view is an outside and possibly untrue view. If the consensus thinks it best to remove the portion, then it should be removed. If it isn't presented as fact, it cannot be libel, and if it isn't libelous, it isn't scholarly to hide information.Just H 02:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced negative claims 

message: Three sources that can be used in an article are:  Web of Hate by Warren Kinsella (paperback edition) pgs 416-424,  this article by Matthew Lauder, this article from B'nai Brith Canada. Homey 04:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  If anyone has time to source the article, sources are easy enough to find: 

message: Why are the changes I made being reverted? Veritas-Canada
The changes make a number of claims that are not sourced. How can you say it's he is the first person to "prevail" at the Commission? And what exactly does it mean to prevail anyway? I'm not denying that the case never happened but you must cite a more authorative source than a Lemire advocacy site in order to include such information. -PullUpYourSocks 23:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Human Rights Commission

message: Nizkor is not a reliable source.  Stormfront message boards are not reliable sources.  This article has been a problem for a long long time.  I started out trying to fix it myself, but it was hopelessly complex for me, not knowing a lot about the subject matter.
Therefore, I have stubbed it again.
I am really serious: you MUST write with attention to SOURCES.  Random message boards do not count.  Internet achives of unknown provenance do not count.  We need newspapers, magazine articles, actual government documents, etc.  REAL SOURCES.  --Jimbo Wales 02:35, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this a reliable source? Khoikhoi 03:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indymedia?  Goodness, no.--Jimbo Wales 03:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. What about Warren Kinsella? Khoikhoi 04:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, I guess according to Veritas-Canada, he is a "known liar"... Khoikhoi 04:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, do we have any other reason to think that Warren Kinsella's work might not be reliable for our purposes?  Has he been critiqued by reliable sources, etc.--Jimbo Wales 16:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are some reviews of the book and some information on Mr. Kinsella: A wake-up call against hate, Warren Kinsella, Shedding Light on the Prince of Darkness, National Post: Warren Kinsella, 1997 Audit of Antisemitic Incidents (note that B'nai Brith uses Web of Hate as a source). I would say that Kinsella is as reliable a source as anyone in Canada on the far right in Canada. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AnnieHall (talk • contribs) 18:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Shoot. Sorry about that. Forgot to sign. AnnieHall 19:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article was horrible 

message: I've added a reference to a Canadian Broadcasting Company source. Though my sentence is poor, the reference is rich, and adds to Lemire's notability. In a nutshell, the CBC links Lemire to several arrests (13, to be exact) in France.
I added the reference because CBC was the only Canadian source I knew. However, I intend to ask for more from the help desk. Obviously, the most rich sources are going to be Canadian and European ones.
I recognize that this person is a hero to some and odious to others. However, he  is a living person, and notable. As a living person and a human being, he deserves neutral (read fair) coverage from Wikipedia. If you were a subject of the largest online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, I'm sure you would want the same. Nina Odell 14:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Let me be clear in the addition of this reference. Whatever views Mr. Lemire has or has had in the past, his actions appear to have some "positive" consequences, i.e. raising the specter of internet free speech in general. It's an important topic for those of us who care about it, such as myself. I have yet to receive much more data, however. On the face of it, in "protecting" himself and his website, he is, in a sense "protecting" the internet with regards to free speech. That doesn't mean that was his intent, just a consequence. This is an example of a "positive", that can be potentially be included in the article.   Nina Odell 17:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My edits

message: I did not write the following, I found it on my user talk page.  There are some claims here that I have not verified.  Is heritagefront.com really hosted by Lemire's web service, for example?  Anyway this does seem to be a potentially useful source.  --Jimbo Wales 22:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm taking it on good faith that Marc Lemire is merely a member of Heritage Front and not an agent of it's website. Should there be evidence to suggest to contrary, then so be it. I wrote a paragraph in relation to this press release that I feel is neutral. Nina Odell 01:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In truth, I think I've done all I can here. I wasn't trying to paint an overly rosy picture, I was trying to put in a sentence here and there that was neutral and not overly pejorative. I feel strongly about BLP. I don't think it's a bad thing to err on the side of "too positive", but I did expect that my paragraph would be added to or tweaked. I didn't expect it to be removed. Even as an African-American, I have no "dog in this fight", so I'll withdraw. Nina Odell 15:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I actually don't know what it's supposed to be called, but I meant biographies of living people. You are also quite right, Spylab, the content shouldn't be slanted on any one side. I'm afraid I have no experience with biographies of living people, and really try to avoid them. Thanks for inadvertently letting me off the hook:).Nina Odell 00:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: See the notice at the top of the page. WP:BLP. -Will Beback · † · 00:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Something possibly useful an anon left on my user talk page

message: In January 1997, the Canadian Jewish Congress produced a report on hate groups called "From Marches to Modems: A Report on Organized Hate In Metro Toronto" which has a section on Marc Lemire under "leaders".
It can be downloaded from the Canadian Jewish Congress website as an MS Word document: http://www.cjc.ca/docs/RD/98_Marches%20to%20Modems.doc (the part on Lemire is on page 26 on the copy I just downloaded) It's listed on this document index on the CJC site but it's a bit difficult to find since the index isn't in alphabetical order (or any order that I can determine) http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?Language=EN&action=rd Dimitroff 01:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New source 

message: The CBC Article CJCurrie is referencing does not mention the Freedomsite at all and the title of the article is clearly about this quote from the article "The Canadian connection is a website run by the Charlemagne Hammer Skinheads, which has blatantly anti-semitic content. At one point it says: "the six million...the Holocaust...the gas chambers... what a joke." "
Also note the Canadian Jewish Congress has intervened against Marc Lemire in the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal hearing case and should not be considered an unbiased source -> CHRT Tribunal Decision allowing CJC As Interested Party <-. -- Veritas-Canada 05:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On that note I've reverted the article to the last one edited by Dimitroff to inlude the sources mentioned. AnnieHall 17:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CBC Article and Canadian Jewish Congress 

message: Earlier this decade Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel was detained in Canada under a National Security certificate. A court hearing was held challenging the certificate and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service report on Zundel's links with violent extremists that informed the governtment's decision to issue the national security certificate against Zundel was entered into evidence. The declassifed report included a section on Marc Lemire. Zundel's website has posted a scanned version of the report. The section on Lemire begins on page 21 of the report (paragraphs 38, 39 and 40) and can be found here http://www.zundelsite.org/zundel_persecuted/legal/certificate/page3.html
Among other things, the CSIS report states that Lemire formed the Canadian Patriots Network "in hopes of bringing racial supremacist groups together" and "has been under the tutelage of and received financial assistance from Zundel and an anti-immigrant activist, Paul Fromm" and that Lemire became head of the Heritage Front in 2001. It also states that Lemire has been called "the webmaster for the far right-wing" and that Digital Freedom, another service launched by Lemire, was "Canada's largest Holocaust revisionist data archive". 
On February 24, 2004, Justice Pierre Blais of the Federal Court of Canada issued a written ruling upholding the National Security Certificate. A PDF of the ruling can be found here http://www.zundelsite.org/zundel_persecuted/legal/blais_final_decision/DES-2-03_e.pdf 
On page 23 of the ruling, beginning at paragraph 49, Justice Blais has the following to say in regards to Zundel's relationship to Marc Lemire:
[49] I also have reservations concerning the scope of Mr. Zündel’s knowledge of Mr. Lemire and his involvement in the Heritage Front. I believe that Mr. Zündel was well aware of Mr. Lemire’s presidency and particularly of the efforts of Mr. Lemire, a computer expert, to develop websites to disseminate messages of racial hatred and to incite violence. Based on reliable evidence provided to me in camera, I believe that Mr. Zündel was in close association with Mr. Lemire, who was working full-time in Mr. Zündel’s house until his departure for the United States in 2000. Furthermore, I also believe that Mr. Lemire had access to Mr. Zündel’s website. Mr. Christie testified that Mr. Lemire was constantly admonished by Mr. Zündel about his behaviour; should I therefore believe Mr. Zündel's testimony that he never discussed Heritage Front business in his house with Mr. Lemire? In my view, Mr. Zündel and Mr. Lemire did in fact discuss Heritage Front matters in his house but most probably in Mr. Christie’s absence.
I think that a report from a government national security agency and a ruling by a federal court judge certainly meet and exceed our threshold when it comes to acceptable sources. Dimitroff 08:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CSIS and Justice Pierre Blais on Marc Lemire 

message: I found a copy of Justice Blais' February 24, 2005 ruling on the Canadian Legal Information Institute website, which is an online depository of Canadian judicial and quasi-judicial rulings. 
References to Marc Lemire are in paragraphs 29 (passim), 35, 39 (which discusses Zundel hiring Lemire as am employee), 49, 52, 68 (passim) and 114 (passim)
http://www.canlii.org/ca/cas/fct/2005/2005fc295.html
CLII has several legal decisions online that mention Lemire see:
Of particular interest may be this Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision which considers evidence given by Irene Zundel, Ernst's ex-wife, in regards to Lemire's involvement in running Zundel's website http://www.canlii.org/ca/cas/chrt/2002/2002chrt10002.html see paragraphs 29 and 47. 
Dimitroff 01:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian Legal Information Institute 

message: Since Justice Blais, for instance, affirms that Droege is or was leader of the Heritage Front can we put Lemire in the appropriate Categories (Canadian neo-Nazi, white nationalist etc)? Dimitroff 22:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories