Talk:Markos Botsaris

message: There is an issue here with people failing to understand the difference between ethnicities and nationalities. Ethnically, Marko Boçari was an Arvanite, Christian albanophone Albanian. This was well documented by many authors of the time as well as today's historians. Ethnicities existed way before nations. The modern Greek nation consists of more than one ethnicity. One of those ethnicities is clearly Albanian-Arvanite to which Marko Boçari belonged to. He even created an Albanian-Greek dictionary due to lack of knowledge of Greek by Arvanites in the region at the time. It is true Marko Bocari fought against the Ottoman Empire for Greek independence for the newly established Greek state, however he was an Albanophone. Hiding this would be doing a great disservice to the truth and I don't believe wikipedia articles should be affected by Balkan politics. It is not all black and white. Please see contemporary "Tribes of Albania" by Robert Elsie p.225 where Marko Bocari's ethnic identity is clearly noted. JoeTBA (talk) 23:15, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The dictionary is already mentioned. No one is trying to hide anything. However your claim that he identified as "Albanian" will not be included, because he did not identify as such. Khirurg (talk) 01:40, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: But he also did not identify as Greek.--Lorik17 (talk) 19:28, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid that he did identified as Greek.Alexikoua (talk) 19:45, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  We dont know as Marko Boqari claim herself politically, but we all know he were Albanian, had Albanian Costume, lived in a albanian socio-cultural clans, had the albanian kanun,  wear Albanian national Costumes and spoke Albanien what the dictionary clearly prove, like all new history books.--178.197.225.244 (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Who gives a shit about his ethnic identity. Please stop. People like Botsaris did not want to identify as Albanians, just like the rest of the Souliotes and Arvanites. They made thier choice. No need to rant about garbage like that. Devote your time to something better. Cheers.Resnjari (talk) 16:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please show us what term they used back then to refer to what today you call "Albanians", if you can answer truthfully you will find out the ethnicity he self identified as! Also the term Greek back then used to have a similar meaning to Christian not to ethnic Hellen ;) Aleks1912 (talk) 10:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

text: Since you are trying to make a point on an irrelevant topic, have you found any letter where Castriotis signs as anything other than Ioannes or Jiovanni? Thanks for the answers. Oh, I almost forgot the point: Souliotes declared they are Greeks in the official documents regarded as the first Greek Constitution, 1/1/1822. Greek text available in wikisource. Here is a translation of the first lines:
 "  In the Name of the Holy and  indivisible Trinity. The Greek Nation, under the horrible ottoman rule, unable to carry the heaviest ... yoke ...". Co-signed by the Souli representatives Fotos Bomporis and Zois Panou (Ζώης Πάνου) . Have a nice day.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  His ethnic identity is being ignored 

message: What I am "trying to do" is rewrite a poorly worded sentence. You also reverted my edit on Drachma because you didn't bother to check the changes made properly. No quote exists for the ridiculous claim that the Balkans had no ethnic groups in 1809, and even if it did it would be the opinion of a single author. Djks1 (talk) 18:55, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No you aren't doing (only) that. You are removing sourced content along with "re-wording" sentences + you added Botsaris' Albanian name in the lead without consensus. Nevertheless, I will proceed to add the quote right now. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 19:34, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you quote rewording haha. Yes I did reword it as it comes across as quite biased. I indeed was adding his name in Albanian (ie what his family would've called him, it's his language after all). Anyway, thanks for adding the quote, I still say such a statement should not be included as it makes a highly contentious claim that ethnicites did not exist in 1809. Regardless, I understand that this article along with other articles regarding Souliotes & Arvantines are Greek playspaces, nothing must go against the deluded narrative, so I won't bother you further, good day. Djks1 (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted changes 

message: The article on Souliotes literally describes them as Albanian by origin - Souliot is not an ethnicity, it is a regional identity of a peoples who spoke Albanian and were Albanian by blood due to their origins. The literal article which you refer to describes them as Albanian, there is nothing wrong with keeping that consistency here. I will post this on the TP's of Kitzos Tzavelas and Markos Botsaris where you have reverted me because I do not want to engage in an edit war, and you will explain exactly why this article cannot say the Souliots are Albanian by origin. I do not think placing the ethnicity of the Souliots is necessary in the lede because of obvious reasons, especially on characters such as Marko and Kitsos, but having it in the article is not harmful.
:Your argument for inclusion boils down to "why not", which is not a reason to include something. The onus is on you to show why the addition is necessary. So far, I am not convinced why this is necessary. "Albanian Souliotes" is not poor form because it is largely redundant. Where there non-Albanian Souliotes? No, so then it's basically repetition. For example, for someone who is Sarakatsani, we just say "he is a Sarakatsani", not "he is a Greek Sarakatsani", because it's well known that Sarakatsani are of Greek origin, so "Greek Sarakatsani" is redundant. Also, many readers might associate them with the Albanian state, which they had no association with. In fact, after independence, they were associated with the Greek state, and even held high offices. The question of their origin is complicated, and is not as simple as you present it. Thus it is appropriate to be discussed at Souliotes, and not in the articles of individual commanders. Khirurg (talk) 03:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  For those who are not familiar with the topic, they will have no idea on what exactly the Souliots are (as I'm sure there are many who have not heard of the unique community before) - a short descriptor, such as "Botsaris was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, an Orthodox Albanian community in Greece, in the region of Souli, Epirus." or "Botsaris was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, an Eastern Orthodox community of Albanian origin, in the region of Souli, Epirus." would suffice enough to provide a basic understanding of what the Souliots were. You can add "who now identify as Greeks" or something like that, but there is nothing wrong with a short descriptor. "Albanian Souliots" alone is indeed rather questionable. Botushali (talk) 07:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Souliotes were also classified as Greeks in Ottoman society as their article describes, so I wonder why this information should be hidden here while on the other hand their Albanian side should be emphasized in all related articles. That's the definition of POV.Alexikoua (talk) 08:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Because they are 'Albanian' by origin, and for the last two centuries or so 'Greek' by self-noted identity. They are described as "Greek" by Ottomans for religious reasons, which I am sure you know. Like I said, feel free to add "who have assimilated into a Greek identity" etc., but the point of them being Albanians by origin still stands and is still relevant in actually defining the community. That way, their assimilated Greek identity and their Albanian roots can both be emphasised evenly, because that's what they are - point is, a short descriptor on the population would improve the article. Botushali (talk) 09:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  They are described as "Greek" by Ottomans for religious reasons?, no they were described as Greeks because of multiple social reasons, even Ali Pasha's secretary described them as "Greeks fighting the Albanians". You need to become familiarized with wp:NPOV.Alexikoua (talk) 11:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Souliots 

message: This section in the info box is pure ethnic propaganda based on unreliable writers (who is that RICHARD SCHUBERT , who "studied cultural anthropology, philosophy, psychology and history in Vienna. [and]  He wrote novels, comedies, essays, aphorisms, poetry, songs, screenplays and non-fiction." In how many years did he "study" all those subjects? Any CV or history bibliography of him? This is not a poetry project). "Native name" is not included in the standard template of info box. Can we have samples of other articles? Above all, is there anybody who actually heard M.Botsaris "answering" to a particular form of name? He signed as "Marko-Botsaris". For those who don't know greek, the omission of final "s" from the first name is not an indication of "foreign language" but a very greek phenomenon that occures when you combine two names in one. For example, Mitsotakis, from Mitsos+Takis. It couldn't be "Mitsostakis". Other example: Vardis Vardinogiannis from Vardis+Giannis (here a "no" has replaced the "s". So, you had short Greek lesson.--Skylax30 (talk) 08:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: "native name"

message: An ignorant "political scientist" of Panteion University (the headquarters of the greek extreme Left) decided that the form "Marko Botsaris" is different from "Markos Botsaris" and the former is "Albanian". For those who care, here as a catalogue of surnames from Crete, showing some composite names similar to Markos+Botsaris, where the mid "s" is dropped, as it happens all over Greece: 
Markos+Giannakis => Markogiannakis (-akis is the usual suffix of Cretan surnames)
Markos+Dimitrakis => Markodimitrakis. Markos+Michelakis (Michalis) => Markomichelakis. Similarly Markantonakis, Markomanolakis, and of course Mitsotakis who is from Crete. The same if the first part is Antonis: Antonogiannakis, Antonogiorgakis etc. The first part can be other than a name, e.g. a profession. The same: Daskalomarkakis (Teacher Markos/Markakis), Daskalantonakis etc. 
The wise professor (Heraklides) doesn't comment about the final "s" of "Botsaris". He seems to accept that this is "native albanian" too. 
In a word, ignoring simple Greek does not prevent you from teaching "political science", at least in Panteion. Skylax30 (talk) 20:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Match ado about an "s" 

message: On August 28th Maleschreiber added in the infobox's "native name" field a second reference so support stating the Albanian version of Bozzari's name written in the modern Albanian alphabet. This was a reference to the book Greek-Albanian Entanglements since the Nineteenth Century: A History by Alexis Heraclides and Ylli Kromidha and the relevant quote that Maleschreiber added states that "The addition of the ' s ' at the end of their names ( Botzaris , Tzavelas ) , common to most Greek names , appeared when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks".
This is an assertion that is outright false and refuted by statements and primary sources cited in Vasso Psimouli's book on "Souli and Souliots" (Σούλι και Σουλιώτες [Athens: Hestia, 2006]). There are a few instances in the chapter on the Souliotic fara ("Τύπος γενών" in the Greek original), where Psimouli states that these names are documented with the final -s. She writes, e.g., in p. 159 that we have the first mention of the name "Tzavelos in an unpublished document of 1780 (or 1786)." "Πρώτη μνεία του ονόματος "Τζαβέλος" έχουμε σε ανέκδοτο έγγραφο του 1780 (ή 1786)". In the book's appendixes one can find primary documents that contradict what Heraclides and Krommidha assert (without any evidentiary support). For example, Psimouli cites in p. 504 of her book a document of "1801 φλεβαρίου -26" (=26th of February 1801) that states "φοτο τζαβέλας γράφι" [Foto Tzavelas] (added emphasis). In the case of Marko, in her biography (Μάρκος Μπότσαρης, 2010) Psimouli cites a note that Marko wrote in 1803 which he signs using his full name as "μάρκο μπότζιαρις" (again, the emphasis is mine). Reference to the note and the relevant quote from Psimouli's biography is already contained in the article having been added by myself on August 18th. What seems rather odd is that the authors (Heraclides and Kromidha) refer to this very same book, stating in the note immediately preceding the one about the final -s [!] that "the best monograph to date [on the Souliots] is by Vaso Psimouli, Souli kai Souliotes [...], but she does not cover the years of the Greek Revolution." They did not seem to bother to explain why the differentiate themselves from what they consider to be the "best monograph to date" on the Souliots. I wrote all this in summary form in the description of my edit removing this reference from the article.
Maleschreiber has since asked, however, "How does this statement [by Heraclides and Kromidha] contradict Psimouli in essence? The 1803 note does postdate the time the Bocari clan left from Souli and lived between the Arta region and the Ionian islands and the diary." I should like to draw the attention of Maleschreiber and other readers of this discussion to the fact that Heraclides and Krommidha postdate the appearance of the final -s in Souliotic surnames with reference to the Souliots "mov[ing] south *and* join[ing] the Greek ranks". The Souliots moved south and joined the Greek ranks during the Greek Revolution, after they abandoned Souli in 1822. They definitely hadn't joined "the Greek ranks" in 1803 when Marko was writing his note. In fact, the Botzaris clan had not joined the Greek ranks, but Ali's serves and they hadn't even moved south at the time: they were installed in Voulgareli, which -after checking a map- everyone can certify is located not southwards but eastwards of Souli. Moreover, even if this was not the case, as I stated in the preceding paragraph, but as was also  mentioned in the edit description with which I had removed the inclusion of this false reference to the article and to which Maleschreiber was replying, Marko's 1803 note is not the only document with a final -s cited by Psimouli, but there are other, older documents [once again, please see above], also antedating by lengthier periods of time the fall of Souli, its clans heading southwards and their "join[ing] the Greek ranks", which only happened during the Revolution.
I also want to remark that neither Alexis Heraclides nor Ylli Kromidha are historians. They are both political scientists, Kromidha having recently received his PhD with Heraclides as his supervisor and a dissertation on "The role of preventive diplomacy in the maintenance of FYROM'S [sic] Unity: the dispute between Athens and Skopje and the conflict between Albanians and Slavomacedonians" (Greek title: "Ο ρόλος της προληπτικής διπλωματίας  στην διατήρηση της ενότητας  της ΠΓΔΜ: η διένεξη Αθήνας–Σκοπίων (1990-1995) και η εθνοτική σύγκρουση Αλβανών-Σλαβομακεδόνων (1991-2001)"), in other words his field is contemporary international relations.
Given that (a) the authors do not accompany their assertion with any evidence, (b) they are not established authorities on this aspect of 18th/19th century history, and that (c) the author they suggest as the most reliable authority on the matter contradicts their uncorroborated claim and cites primary sources that refute them, I think that this reference should be removed from the encyclopedia.
To avoid any possible misunderstanding of my intentions, I want to stress that I am not writing in order to have the form of Marko's name transcribed in modern Albanian removed from the infobox's native name -- in fact I had inserted a reference to a reliable source that has now been (IMHO wrongly) removed. I do, however, think that we should not include references to dubious scholarly works with uncorroborated assertions that contradict primary evidence and truly reliable secondary sources by specialists, as is the case with the book by Heraclides and Kromidha. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 11:28, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally agree with @Ashmedai 119.  Citing non-historian scholars is a typical example of fallacious "appeal to false authority arguments". Cinadon36 12:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spurious information and citation to source of dubious reliability 

message: It is said in this wikipedia page that his name was Markos Botsaris. I am putting this up, because wikipedia is about the truth, and that is not true. Albanians say the last name as "Boçari", and Greeks as "Botsaris". Before we make any assumptions without evidence, we need to find out the meaning of this surname. The surname "Boçari" in Albanian is a common surname that can originate from the words "boçkë" or "boç". "Boçkë" means a small morsel, while "boç" can be used to describe a small cattle or a small animal. Hence the name 'Boçari' may be related to the word for small or diminutive animal. 
In Greek, "Boçari/Botsaris" may be related to the word "βόσκαρης" (vóskaris), which refers to a person who takes care of cattle in the mountains or forests.  This word originates from the word "βόσκω" (vósko), which means "to herd" or "to tend cattle". Therefore, in this context, "Botsaris" can refer to a person who deals with animals in the countryside or in nature. Now, the surname can be said that it has meaning from both languages, but the surname Boçari/Botsaris is now usually only the surname of Chams, and Arvanites, and this surname is also common in some Albanian villages or small cities, including Mallakastër, but not by Greeks.
In the page of Markos Botsaris it specifically says in the first sentences that he was a Suliote, and not a Greek. In the first sentence of the page of Suliotes, it reads "The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Albanian tribal community in the area of Souli in Epirus from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century, who via their participation in the Greek War of Independence came to identify with the Greek nation." so if they identified as Greek due to their participation in the Greek war, they identified after Greece was independent and the wars stopped, but Marko Bocari was killed in a battle, well before he could identify as a Greek. Andi Atdhetari (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a particularly strong view. It's not a specialist subject area of mine. I am just replying to draw attention to the fact that this discussion has been had several times. In fact this Talk Page is basically having this discussion ad nauseam. To change the consensus, @Andi Atdhetari, I think it would be best if you addressed the issues and arguments that others have (fairly recently) discussed. Consensus can change, but we should not be having the same discussion over and over again. Perhaps a Request for Comment would be a good idea? Jtrrs0 (talk) 19:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Andi Atdhetari (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistakes 

message: As this talk page shows, there has been an intractable debate on whether the subject should be described as Greek (or Albanian etc) and what spelling his name should have and connected questions. This RfC hopes to solve this issue. The issues are as follows:
* How should the subject of the article be named? 
:* Is the Albanian-language version of his name necessary or appropriate?
:* What prominence should be given to the Albanian-language version of his name?
* Is it appropriate to describe him in the lead as Greek?
Jtrrs0 (talk) 12:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect that a closer is likely to pretty much ignore that unless you can cite sources backing your OR. (I am not saying that I disagree, just that neither your nor my OR counts for anything.) Gog the Mild (talk) 14:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @John Pack Lambert: You write that Marko "lived his entire life as a subject of the Ottoman Empire." This is factually not true. He also lived as a subject of the Septinsular Republic, a subject of French rule and towards the end of his life he chose to become a citizen of the newly-founded Provisional Administration of Greece and died defending it, having been awarded the rank of a general in the revolutionary armies. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 14:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Provisional, unrecognized governments that seek to overthrow existing ones that have not successfully been removed do not negate the fact that people under such movements are usually seen as subjects of the power that be. On the issue of the Septimsular Republic, was he actually a subject/national of it, or was he a subject of the Ottoman Empire who happened to reside in that area, or is his exact status there clear?John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Digging deeper, per our article the Septinsular Republic was a Republic that existed from 1800-1807 under nominal Ottoman and Russian soveignty. It replaced the two years of rule in that area by the French Republic.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

text:  Somebody who has deep knowledge of the sources, in particular of Psimouli is  who worked extensively with other Wikipedia editors when writing up the Souliots page.Resnjari (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I am happy for this to close with no action. Personally, I am now quite convinced there is no dispute here. Jtrrs0 (talk) 11:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , its been a few years since i engaged with the Souliots topic area -as i've only done seldom edits here and there on English wiki in that time. After your ping, i had some time now and read through some of these articles, a lot of improvement has been made. It has the Albanian name for the said individual which to be frank is a shock for me as last decade any attempt was met with derision and so on. Some brave editing must have taken to get it to even that point. Up to you if you want to close this RFC, im ok with the present situation in the article. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Baltsiotis has extensively done archival research and field work regarding the topic of Albanian speaking people in what is now modern Greece for more than 2 decades. He has worked with other Greek scholars on the topic and has been cited in various academic works, both Greek and in Western academia. He also teaches at Panteion University as an assistant professor. His scholarly works fit the parameters of WP:RELIABLE. Its best to avoid what could be interpreted as insinuations, unless there is backing via reliable sources that question Baltisotis' scholarship. Thanks.Resnjari (talk) 03:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that Baltsiotis enjoys the bonam fidem of someone who has conducted his scholarly work in a manner that is not tainted with unprofessional methods, and this includes his yet unpublished doctoral dissertation to which Rensjari refers us. Of course, the same stands for Psimouli and her writings. I am wondering if Resnjari has read the work to which Baltsiotis refers his dissertation's readers concerning the "entirely erroneous basis" of Jochalas's conclusions. The reason I am asking is that the main finding of the piece that Baltsiotis refers his readers is that the Romaic/Greek entries in Botzaris's Romaic[Greek]-Arvanitic[Albanian] dictionary were not produced by himself at will, but match [and derive from] the entries of another dictionary in Italian. Unfortunately, Baltsiotis does not refer to the speficic claims that (in his view) Psimouli erroneously extracts from Jochalas's ignorance of this piece of information concerning the origin of the entries of Botzaris's dictionary. Could someone please explain how s/he understands it? Moreover, even though I do not have Psimouli's works at my side right now, I cannot remember her basing her remarks on the bilingualism of the Souliots from the 18th century onwards on Jochalas's edition of Botzaris's dictionary -- or at least not exclusively on it, as I am quite sure in my recollection that in the relevant section of her book (about the language of the Souliots) she also discusses William Martin Leake's remarks on the Souliots knowing Greek, private contracts made by/for the use of Souliots in Greek and Foto Tzavellas's personal diary, written in Greek, while in Marko Botzaris's biography she presents his personal remembrance note he made about the siege of Souli in Greek in 1803 (already cited in this article). Those with the book(s) at hand can check the veracity of what I write themselves. I would also like to remind that the existence of Albanian-Greek bilingualism among the Souliots is not supported only by Psimouli but also by other scholars, among whom Noel Malcolm, who -- as, I suppose, Resnjari and other editors who have edited articles about Albania-related subjects already know -- has been notoriously accused of displaying a pro-Albanian bias in his historical writings and postulates that this state of linguistic affairs existed back in the early 17th century (see his Rebels, Believers, Survivors: Studies in the History of the Albanians, p. 99: "Historic local place-names suggest that the Souliots were originally Albanian-speaking; in this period many were probably bilingual in Albanian and Greek", written relating to Angela, the "last Albanian to appear in the Sicilian [Inquisition] records" in 1611). Ashmedai 119 (talk) 09:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I bring up Baltsiotis because of nearly everyone in the field, he has done the most extensive research in (and on) the region, not only of the archives, and of other scholars works (whether they be Albanian or Greek) to see if their content stacks up, but also fieldwork about Albanian speaking people in Thesprotia and the surrounding area. His conclusions are based upon that. Neither Yochalas, Psimouli, nor Malcolm has come close (mainly doing only archival, focusing on certain aspects) to doing both ends (archival and fieldwork). What is not in dispute is that the Albanian language was core to the Souliot community until their forced departure from Souli in the early 1800s. The area of contention is only when Greek began being used by them and what circumstances caused it or how wide its range was among the community at various points in time. As for calling a academic "pro" this group or that, i can only go by what reputable academics have said through examinations/critiques of their fellow colleagues and their works. If they have come to those conclusions and used such terms (and explained why), i would only use it if there was need within the discussion like this and cite the source. Otherwise its off topic and again veering into insinuation territory.Resnjari (talk) 02:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not mean to insinuate anything other than what I clearly stated in my previous message, i.e. that Souliot bilingualism is not a position only held by Vaso Psimouli, but by other scholars, including Noel Malcolm, who cannot be accused as harboring a bias disfavouring Albanian national historiography -- on the accusations I mentioned it would suffice to check the article about him in this very encyclopedia. Moreover, while there is indeed no dispute about the Souliots being Albanian-speakers, it is not true that, when it comes to the Souliots, Baltsiotis "has done the most extensive research", because, as one can confirm by checking his doctoral dissertation on the Muslim Cham Albanians, which contains scant references to the Souliots (13 in total), he has not researched any 18th century archives that Psimouli has (naturally) used in her work, most importantly, the (at the time still unpublished) Ali Pasha paper, lying at the Gennadius, for which Baltsiotis refers to Psimouli's monograph. Besides, fieldwork (in the anthropological sense) in Thesprotia is relatively unimportant with regards to the Souliots, given that they left the area in 1822 never to return again (and I can see no point where Baltsiotis refers to fieldwork as proof of any of the scant references about the Souliots). In any case, I remind that, as I have written above, Psimouli's book has been described "the best monograph to date" on the Souliots and I repeat that Psimouli's statement about the use of Greek by the Souliots from the late eighteenth century onward is not relying only on the Botzaris dictionary, but also on "relative reports" (including the one by William Martin Leake) and "extensive written Souliot texts, such as the diary of Foto Tzavellas" (Σούλι και Σουλιώτες (Αθήνα: Εστία, 2006), p. 216) and in the case of Marko Bozzaris, may I add, once again, his continued use of Greek as evidenced in his autographs written in Greek from when he was 13 years old until the last years of his life. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 13:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Among those scholars there no denial that the Souliots had bilingualism. What Baltsiotis notes is that Psimouli refers to the Souliots using the Albanian language extensively, and that their use of Greek is mainly reliant on what Yochalas concludes. He said that Psimoulis overemphasised the part about Souliots knowledge of Greek, in lieu of his research on the Orthodox Albanian speaking element in Thesprotia and surrounding region and their use of Greek which was minimal to near absent until becoming part of Greece (apart from those that underwent language shift in the Tsarkovitsa zone – and that was due in part to the departure of the Souliots and repopulation of Souli with Greek speakers which geographically wedged Albanian speakers). Baltsiotis spends over 70 pages discussing the language and geography and late Ottoman era situation before the rest of the PHD discusses the interwar period. Hence why i cited Baltsiotis for the basis of my position. I still stand by Baltsiotis without discounting Psimoulis (which I never did). My point for this discussion is that there is a case that can be made for the Albanian name to have equal standing with the Greek form at the top of the article for Souliot individuals. If it becomes a proper RFC that would be my stance. On Malcolm, those critiques are to do with Kosovo (which is not part of this discussion). In general, if you think there are concerns/problems with a particular scholar i wouldn't invoke them as a source for this discussion.Resnjari (talk) 03:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC on name and ethnic identity 

message: Markos bocaris  was Greek not Albanian 79.103.211.106 (talk) 09:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to ask the anonymous user -or those earnestly responding to his comment-, which is the part of the article in which Bozzaris presented as belonging to the Albanian ethnic group. In the first sentence of the lead he is presented as a Souliot and a participant in/hero of the Greek War of Independence. Both his being one of the Souliots and his participation in the Greek Revolution along with his glorification for it are related to his notability (see WP:MOSBIO) and are also "clear, agreed upon, unambiguous and undisputed", as Johnpacklambert suggests. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 11:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  The ethnic origins of the Souliotes are not a matter of dispute. There is a very strong consensus in all relevant academic fields about their origin (Albanian) and all current versions in articles about them were established via consensus-building discussions based on bibliography which involved many active editors - including Ashmedai and me. This article itself doesn't even claim that the figure was Albanian, hence there's not even an active dispute because the article doesn't categorize him as Albanian or Greek, but simply as Souliot. --Maleschreiber (talk) 09:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides some national POV I have to agree with Johnpacklambert, the ethnicity of the Souliotes is a matter of despute in mainstream scholarship. This is quite clear.Alexikoua (talk) 01:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: We've mapped the most extensive review of bibliography about them in the relevant discussions which formed the consensus version. You couldn't argue that there is such a dispute because no such dispute shows up in relevant bibliography.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change Markos Bocaris ethnic group