Talk:Dream Theater/Archive 3

message: If you make any significant changes to the History section of this article, please also merge those changes into History of Dream Theater. It will make it a lot easier on the rest of us! Also, if a certain fact is not particularly pertinent for the main DT article, it's probably best just to add it to the History of Dream Theater article and not the main one to prevent the article getting bloated. Thanks! (I have added HTML comments to each sub-section so that people who use the [edit] links within the article itself are notified of this. Please keep those comments in tact.) plattopusis this thing on? 17:01, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
This probably has surfaced before already, but isn't it more useful to remove the whole history section or just keeping the absolute minimum. The history takes up the bulk of the article and both the history section of the main article and the history article have about the same contents... I think one or two paragraphs of history should suffice in the main article Petergee1 18:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplicating changes to "History" section

message: I switched the order of paragraphs when the Majesty demos were released, and changed one date, as Chris Collins left the band in November 1986, not 1985.  This is proven in regards I have the Majesty demos official bootleg, and it explains that in there; plus in Mike Portnoy's tourography, it explains Collins' last show was in October 1986.  I then moved the release of the Majesty demos paragraph to before the paragraph explaining Collins' departure from the band, since Collins sang on the demos.  With the paragraph being where it was it looked like Charlie Dominici sang on the demos.  Some wording may need to be changed, especially in the last sentance explaining the dubbing and spreading of the demo.--Splent 05:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Switched Paragraphs and changed date

message: I think someone can get a better photo the the current main one. It seems that the old one has been flagged as a copyright violation. What photo of Dream Theater is not copyrighted? --Chris 19:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main photo 

message: Can somebody tell me what's meta album? I think that is the flowing factor of their four last albums. But can somebody tell me where is this word used (in other literatures, of course)? I haven't heard for this word never... --Aeternus 19:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm 90% sure whoever put that in the article is the first (and probably only) person to use that term. I've never heard it myself, and I think it's pretty dubious as far as an actual recognised musical term, but the actual information about each album starting with the sound from the previous is notable enough to be included. "Meta album" should probably be re-worded though.  plattopustalk 04:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The "Meta album" thing"

message: Someone labeled DT a "piano rock" group.  Other than a few songs like Another Day I can't see how Dream Theater bears resemblance to groups like Ben Folds Five and Billy Joel.  Heck, most of the time it's not even pianos, it's synths.  If someone can provide as source from a major publication that classifies Dream Theater as piano rock, please insert a link into the article; otherwise, the term should be edited out of the article.
:They aren't piano rock for sure. I can prove that... --Aeternus 19:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe Space-Dye Vest and Wait for Sleep would fit under there best, but, no, definitely not piano rock. --Russoc4 14:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Piano Rock 

message: What happened to the "criticism" section? --Aeternus 19:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Another common criticism is that the band has always failed at achieving commercial success despite constant effort by the band".  um, yeah....millions of records sold, playing concerts to tens of thousands of people, that's definitely "commercial failure".  And to imply that Dream Theater have sold out is also an unsound assertion, "sell-out" bands don't write ten-minute instrumentals and twenty-minute epics, it's true that Dream Theater draw influences from mainstream music and nu metal (James LaBrie and Mike Portnoy have both said so in interviews) but Rush also drew influences from the "pop music"  of their time when they were at what is widely considered to be their artistic peak.  If we do decide to add the "criticism" section to the article, we should omit that last paragraph, it has no place in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.238.170.154 (talk) 20:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, Dream Theater is. --ΛэтєяиuS 10:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find enough criticism from a viable source it is ok, but those sections on band articles  are normally just ways for people who don't like a band to weasel in negative POV.--E tac 03:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism

message: Omgies! Couldn't find this one on the page :))!! Listen the end of Finally Free, then The Glass Prison. They are connected! Also notice the non-AA related connection between SDOIT and Mp. II. The end of Finally Free contains clips from political discussions - a theme in SDOIT song the Great Debate about stem cell controversy. --nlitement [talk] 01:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia 

message: This "Meta album" thing is getting worser. Is somebody out there that can tell exactly what "meta album" is, or, even better, write an article about it? --Aeternus 17:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think any other groups has done something like this before. So if we had to create a word for that concept then "meta-album" is a perfect word, imho, giving the definition of the "meta" prefix that can be found in the meriam webster online dictionary... I would leave it as it is, since the concept of a "meta-album" is explained in the article. So what do you think ? --Zoury 14:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but, can we create an article about meta-album with those facts? --Aeternus 17:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Meta

message: Would it be a good idea to have a separate page on the split of Kevin Moore from Dream Theater? It seems to be a topic that comes up often, on the DT pages and also on the Chroma Key ones.  I can see good arguments for both sides, what do other people think?  Justabaldguy 11:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there's enough information about the split. --Russoc4 16:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: DT/Kevin Moore Split

message: I have removed the suggestion to merge the article History of Dream Theater into the main Dream Theater article, because - as is explained at the top of this talk page, the talk page of the History article, and within a HTML comment in the source of this article - the History of Dream Theater page is the full version of their history, and an abbridged version of that article appears in Dream Theater. This is in line with, for example, the article on The Beatles where the History section is far too long to be included in the main article in its entirety. It helps readability and won't intimidate people away from reading a prohibitively long article.
If the History section in the main article is too large, simply cut it down a bit more... if people want the whole history they can view the separate article. Contributors tend to just update the main article instead of the separate History article, so Dream Theater is getting a bit on the long side again, perhaps it's an idea to shorten the History sub-heading once more.  plattopustalk 06:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[History of Dream Theater]] merge 

message: Article needs to be reverted to a earlier version.
Steviedpeele 04:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism September 9/10, 2006 

message: Does somebody know if "Lost Without You" is just a John Petrucci song, or a Dream Theater song also? --Λeternus 19:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but i have a Dream Theater version of the song also, where keyboards are used (in Suspended Animation there are no keyboards). Maybe Dream Theater have just covered that song, but from the quality of the sound, it seems that Dream Theater's version is much older... --Λeternus 16:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's possible that they covered it somewhere at a concert. What you heard was probably a low quality bootleg. But it is still Petrucci's song off his solo album.Steviedpeele 02:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It's been around for over ten years, and was originally played at Dream Theater concerts, but it's always been a John Petrucci song (hence its inclusion in Suspended Animation).  plattopustalk 15:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lost Without You

message: There are too meny unnecessary and unreasonable citations needs. For example, you just can't find a citation about their music, it is on their sound, and that's the fact. --Λeternus 16:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense - every single citation needed tag requires a source that substantiates the claim made - fans can't just say whatever they wish about the band's music just because they feel it's well known with their selective circle - find some paper references or support from well known music critics on the web that draw these very specific parallels between Dream Theater's music/sound and the "influences" mentioned in the article. Further more, EVERY SINGLE claim made about an album's debut or critical reception requires sources. That should be fairly obvious and should go pretty much unchallenged. I trust that it shouldn't be too difficult to dig them up. Wisdom89 16:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations needed

message: In all seriousness, please, continue the discussion on what genres Dream Theater falls under. Currently, the majority agree with progressive metal. This is what was on the article, this is still what is on the article. The debate is whether progressive rock or heavy metal should be considered. Dream Theater, like many bands, tends to touch more genres than just one across their albums, however, we must consider that this fusion of genres is in some sense what progressive metal really is. Please discuss. --Russoc4 20:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Progressive rock + heavy metal = progressive metal :)24.238.170.154 02:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: That is true, but I think that the term "progressive metal" already takes the heavy/thrash metal influence into account. --Russoc4 15:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on the Genres 

message: The German fan club The Mirror released "Nine Degrees of Backstage Tourbulence" a while back from their 6doit tour. (See YouTube). Does someone have anymore info on this? --Russoc4 14:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nine Degrees... 

message: I have made an article on the perrenial fans favourite here. If anyone wants to make improvements, or suggest improvements, feel free to. When I have the time I'm planning to make an article like this for every I&W song, because it's the greatest album ever in my opinion :).--Mintyhead 05:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I don't see the need to have a page for every Images and Words song. Just the important/significant ones, which I think is already covered (Pull Me Under and Another Day, because they were released as singles, and Metropolis, because it spawned Scenes From A Memory). Flamingwuzzle23 19:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Why would a reference need to be an "internet reference?"  If it's verifiable and reliable then go with it.  --ElKevbo 13:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Metropolis

message: Does anyone know when a informational release (release date/title/etc.) about the new album can be expected? Steviedpeele 03:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New album information? 

message: Hi all, I put a spoiler warning in the section where hidden elements / nuggets in the songs are revealed. It is interesting to read, however... I've got to look out for them! FSHero 22:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hidden elements in songs 

message: OK, I should clarify first: I am the person who added the sales figures for Dream Theater's albums.  They are fairly accurate, though I was unable to find one single source for all of their albums.  Thus, the times from which those figures were obtained differ; the "Awake" figure is from 2002, all of the other albums figures except "Octavarium" are from 2005, the figure for "Octavarium" is from early 2006.  The 8VM figure might be a bit out of date but the others are accurate for most purposes.
This website has their ALBUM sales IN THE US at 2.1 million: http://www.marketingtomenconference.com/marketingtomen/bb_article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003544204.  Nielsen Soundscan News also had that figure but you have to subscribe to read the article so I can't find it anymore.  Fair enough; if you add up the listed album figures you get about 1.6 million, add live album sales and 2.1 million isn't too far off.
Now, look at this figure: http://www.dreamtheater.net/news_dreamtheater.php#roadrunner.  This article has their ALBUM AND DVD sales WORLDWIDE at over 6 million.  Quite a large number!
Now I'm kind of debating with myself.  Should I add that list figure to the article?  On the one hand, it is some interesting information, but I'm kind of worried that it will cause confusion.  Also, although I doubt Roadrunner (or DT) would lie, it seems kind of weird that they have sold that many records.  I would never have estimated over 5 mil. PearlTheater 23:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding some Albums Sales Figures 

message: How is this article considered only "Start" class for the Biography and Rock Music projects? Surely a former Featured Article (with very few changes since its promotion to FA, despite the fact that it was demoted) is good enough for at least B Class?  plattopustalk 15:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Start" Class 

message: * I Counted 14 citation needed tags
* Unreferenced paragraphs and sections
* Citations come after punctuation [3], should be ,[3]
* Images don't have fair use rationales
* References are missing access dates and publisher - some are just URL's
* One sentence paragraphs
* solo career. [1] external jump
* Songwriting characteristics - should be converted from list to paragraphs
You may wish to take a look at Megadeth or Slayer which are current Featured Articles for further ideas, that being said it needs lots of work and there are many problems which i didn't mention here because there's too much. M3tal H3ad 06:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Citation notices have all been taken care of. Why should any of the images need to be Fair Use? They're either promotional photos (created for use in articles like these), or album covers.  plattopustalk 18:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All the images are copyrighted and are tagged as fair use. You must have a detailed fair use rationale to as why you think fair use applies to the image. All promotional and album covers are fair use because they are copyrighted by the record label. M3tal H3ad 12:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you say, all promotional and album cover images are fair use - and if you look at the image pages, there is a fair use rationale template on each one. There is only one non-promotional/album cover image in the article, which is the logo under "Logo and imagery", and that would surely fall under fair use - and besides, that particular image containing the logo was released under a PD license by myself before elbeem turned it into an SVG (which is a derivative work, therefore also PD). Or have I got it wrong? If you could list your specific objections, that would help.  plattopustalk 16:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed GA

message: They decided to rewrite and expand the 20-minute song with a fresh, new band member into a complete concept album, with the story revolving around themes such as reincarnation, murder and betrayal.
Uh... If I remember rightly, A Change Of Seasons is actually about seizing the day, life going in circles, and how it affects you/us. It has nothing to do with Betrayal at all. And Reincarnation and Murder may be included in the song, but the song does not revolve around those themes. I am a big fan of this one specific song, and did research on it, including actually going out and buying the EP to read its description booklet.
If this has no responses by April to change my views, I will amend it --Dark dude 15:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not about "A Change of Seasons", it's about "Metropolis Part 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper". --ΛэтєяиuS 17:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Change Of Seasons? 

message: I see that this article was at one time a Featured article or FA candidate. However, the article is not listed as a Good Article . As part of the Rock music WikiProject, it is suggested that an article achieve Good Article (GA) status before having it's candidacy re-newed. So be sure that points from any previous Features article candidate (FAC) archives and peer reviews are taken and applied to the article, and shoot for a GA nomination. Good luck! -- Reaper  X 22:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A note on GA status

message: From where does Jordan Rudess comes and what's his present nationality? --ΛэтєяиuS 22:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jordan's origin 

message: I must admit that I am a newcomer to Dream Theater, and something I noticed was that the information the article gives about Octavarium is not very comprehensive.  The section about hidden elements in their songs is not easy to understand either, speaking only to "insiders". While I do not have the knowledge to do anything about this, I think that something should be done about it. People wanting to learn about the band like me would find it much easier to understand if these items were cleared up. Watto the jazzman 10:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually timestamp would be any moment of the song. For example, when it's written "Root: "Take all of me" from The Root of All Evil (timestamp 3:03)", it means that the quoted sample is taken from the song "The Root of All Evil", starting when the time marker reaches 3 minutes and 3 seconds. Hetcenus 03:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hetcenus is correct.  Timestamp, time signature, and beats-per-minute are three completely unrelated topics. Ignitus 10:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Octavarium Clear-Uppance 

message: Says in the part about the logo: "with at least one of the official marks appearing on the front cover of every major release to date, with the exception of Once in a LIVEtime (see explanation below)"
But it's NOT explained, neither below nor above. Either an explanation needs to be added or that paragraph needs to be clarified.
: Thanks for picking that up, I recently removed some non-encyclopedic content from that section, which included that "explanation", but didn't see that there was a reference to it elsewhere.  plattopustalk 11:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I put this section in the 1989 section of the history article, because it seemed to fit better there, since it's basically historic information about the band.Splent 00:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logo and imagery 

message: I noticed at the DT discography on the band's official site that only five singles are listed: Another Day, Lie, The Silent Man, Hollow Years and Through Her Eyes. However, the article also mentions Take the Time, Pull Me Under, Burning My Soul and You Not Me as CD singles. Is there any proof that these singles were in fact released as CDs? If not, I believe it should be edited out of the article.
Also, I believe Home also has a radio edit. How reliable is this information when it comes to the other songs listed as radio edits? Hetcenus 03:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CD Singles and radio edits 

message: This has probably been discussed before, but I definitely think that there needs to be a separate discography page. The band's catalogue is extensive enough for it. There are bands who only have 3 or so albums that have discography pages, yet DT doesn't have one despite having 9 studio albums, 5 lives and more (as well as having an entire Wikipedia page devoted to the band's history) already. It'd help make the article a lot clearer (it's looking pretty messy at the moment, if you ask me) and the fan club CDs and official bootlegs can also be listed. Adamravenscroft 11:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. It may not be sprawling but there is certainly enough there to warrant its own article, especially since they're not exactly slowing down. Offski 11:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've done it. I tried to include as much info as necessary, including fan club stuff and official bootlegs. I changed the layout slightly from the original also. Adamravenscroft 11:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a suggestion: shouldn't we do this page in the style of, for example, Elton John discography? I think it's better-looking that most discography pages I've seen so far...Hetcenus 14:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that does look much better, I'll probably change it to a copy of that. I spent a while looking around at the various discography layouts when creating it - I eventually settled on that because it seemed most familiar (I think I used the Metallica discography as a guide). At first I tried doing it in the gallery style, but after looking around, I got the impression that is generally not a preference (any reason why?). There should definitely be some kind of discography template to clear up this confusion. Adamravenscroft 15:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a template that, I think, might come in handy: Template:Infobox Discography. Hetcenus 19:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography 

message: Guys, as far as the official DT website says the chilean and australian fan clubs aren't official and someone keeps adding them. I don't know how to block the section to be edited.
The chilean website is somehow organized, but it's not considered official.
The "Jammax" I didn't even found something about them.
WE MUST DO SOMETHING! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.82.42.226 (talk) 01:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fan clubs 

message: As I looked through the musical quotation part, I listened to some of the quotes, and noticed that Fatal Tragedy is not the only song to quote Acid Rain, but The Glass Prison also is! Just check the beginning of Acid Rain (timestamp 00:00, basically, to 00:25) and the ending of The Glass Prison (timestamp 09:42). It's then gone for a solo but then comes back as John Myung's "bas solo" (timestamp 11:05). It's then heard in the background of the ending, on and forth. Cool, huh? =) Is this something good enough to be added on that list, perhaps? (81.228.208.190 11:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acid Rain / The Glass Prison. 

message: Since Systematic Chaos was announced, people have made articles on every single song from the album just because they can. The album hasn't even been released, and so people see the opportunity to make an article because there is no research for them to have to do. I do not believe there should be an article for every song. Maybe Constant Motion because it's a single, but please... does anyone else agree? --Russoc4 18:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Individual Songs 

message: So... what exactly needs to be improved in the article to get to at least be a Good Article? --Russoc4 01:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that.  Some of the stuff in there is either minor or something that can be applied to a lot of music (e.g. the "expanding chorus" entry). InnocuousFox 14:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Status 

message: I think we need a new one. Although this one is new it looks quite bad.--217.44.177.107 12:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, wow.  The Parigi one simply sucks compared to the old one.  Whose idea was THAT?  Certainly we can find one that is a better reprentation of the band.  And what was wrong with the other one? InnocuousFox 13:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It was mine, I didn't want to leave the page without a band picture and it was the only one in Commons. I think we do need a better picture, but we must be careful with those copyright issues. The Paris one can still be a placeholder, though... Hetcenus 20:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Let's leave it there until one of those bots complain... ;) Hetcenus (Talk) 00:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Band Image