Talk:BDORT/Archive 2

message: Richard, I will accept your explanation for the unilateral change per WP:AGF. Let's make it clear that from now on, any change, of any kind, except a typo if one is discovered, needs consensus. If you disagree with this, please let me know in your next message.
Now addressing your point about the word accepted. I think I understand that to you it implies fore-knowledge prior to acceptance, so its negation not accepted would imply knowledge and rejection based on that knowledge. I think from a strictly logical point of view that is incorrect (if A = P and Q, then notA = notP or notQ, which in this case would mean that if acceptance means 'knowledge and agreement', then non-acceptance would mean either no knowledge or no agreement, but not necessarily both). But leaving strict logic aside,
I offer the following change, which of course would need consensus to be adopted: "There is no evidence that BDORT was ever accepted by the mainstream medical community, and it was in fact labeled as having 'no scientific validity' by the Medical Practitioners Disciplinary Tribunal of New Zealand, in a disciplinary action against Richard Gorringe, on August 5,2003. Dr Omura had declined to testify in that case to defend BDORT or Gorringe, despite being invited to do so by the Tribunal."
Obviously this would require evidence for Dr. Omura's invitation and declining thereof, which I haven't seen but FuCyfre has claimed. If such evidence is not forthcoming then the last sentence would have to be removed.
Anyway, I await comments. Crum375 10:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Yes, personal knowledge, if that's your implication, is not acceptable in the article per WP:RS. But if there is any valid published evidence for it then of course that could be used. Crum375 14:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: * If your question is whether 'personal knowledge' is acceptable in a discussion, my own understanding is yes, as long as one understands that it is of very limited use as it can't be cited in the article. I can see a hypothetical case where an editor is aware of a fact because of personal knowledge (but has no acceptable source), communicates it in the discussion to others, and then someone else comes up with a proper source for it. So I would consider it 'work product' level information. Of course if someone starts inventing information (and claiming personal knowledge) that could be really disruptive so I guess the trick is to keep it to a minimum and assume it is near-useless until hard evidence is obtained. Crum375 20:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: * In that case I will remove the last sentence from my proposed change (Richard please note). Of course if this info ever surfaces in appropriate form, future editors would be able to re-insert it. Now let's wait for Richard (and anyone else) to opine. Crum375 00:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "BDORT not accepted by mainstream"

message: I have added the NPOV template to this article, as I understand that RichardMalter disputes its neutrality. I suggest we keep trying to find wording that can achieve consensus.
Richard, can you propose (here in the Discussion page) a language that in your opinion will be neutral and represent the fact that the only WP:RS evidence we have of MMC evaluation of BDORT is by the NZ Tribunal. For your version to have a chance at achieving consensus, try to think like a neutral WP editor, who has no personal stake in the matter, and only wants to present the verifiable information at hand. Thanks, Crum375 15:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I suggest the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshiaki_Omura/Work
Hit Show Preview to view. FuCyfre 17:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Reformed Entry 

message: Here is the
URL to
FuCyfre's version.
I hope FuCyfre doesn't mind that I fixed up the URL in his version too, so people wouldn't get into the edit page inadvertently (and he can delete the strikeout I put on his 'preview' instructions).
Anyway, to me it seems to have potential. I am going to try to merge Richard's suggested
phrasing into it and see what happens. I guess what we can do is reach
consensus on the Work version and then replace the 'official' version with
it when we all agree. And FuCyfre, please don't withdraw - we need you here to help us get it right! Thanks, Crum375 20:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Thanks a lot FuCyfre, for the work you have done before plus this latest proposed version. I also think it's probably good enough to replace the current version, but prefer to have consensus for any move. Thanks, Crum375 22:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FuCyfre's Work Version

message: Richard, since the previous section was getting long, I decided to start a new one while responding to you.
I'll address three issues:
# I thought you yourself suggested to stick to one issue at a time, yet you raise several in your latest message. I agreed with you that we can only deal with a single issue on the table, so let's try to stick to it.
# Regarding the permission to use strong opinions - this has nothing to do with our refusal to cite improper sources. I have asked you, many times, for a single source where an MD publishing an article in MMC journal. Not 2 or 3 or 4 - just one. You have yet to choose that one, and provide it to me. If you do, we'll deal with it, and it alone. Again, just one good article in MMC - I know this is repetitive but I have yet to see your single example.
# Regarding your a b c presentation of the article. This article, to remind you, is about Dr. Omura. Yes, his major claim to fame is BDORT, but Omura is the subject. So we can't just do as you say. I think BDORT having a separate section within Omura's article makes sense organizationally.
Richard, let me suggest to you how I would proceed if I were you. I think you are frustrated and feel that BDORT is not being given a 'fair shake'. Take a single small point in the article (or the Work version) and address it clearly. Show clearly and briefly, in minimum words, why the present version requires changing per WP policy. Then we can deal with it. Regardless of the eventual outcome of that item, you can then repeat the process for the next item, etc.
Let's try to get to all your issues one at a time, and let's try to address each of them fairly and fully.
Thanks, Crum375 16:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to Richard

message: Richard, I am sorry if I sound like a broken record (hey younger people don't know what we are talking about, I  guess), but all I am asking for is:
:*One item at a time
:*One really good, in fact the very best you can find, citation (i.e. URL) of the presentation of BDORT by an MD in a Mainstream Medical Community (i.e. not Alternative Medicine) journal (preferably in a language we can understand, since this is the English Wikipedia)
If the above request is not clear, please let me know. Thanks, Crum375 13:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I agree that the present article is a little awkward in its organization. I think the new proposed Work version is much better. Can you please reply to my question below? Thanks, Crum375 14:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken record? 

message: I think it's important to bear the following in mind:
* The sole established basis for notability for this entry sufficient to jusity its inclusion in WP, in my understanding, as established at the time of its suggested deletion, is specifically that it is viewed as a form of pseudoscience and that this, and this alone, merits notability sufficient for inclusion. I am not aware of any other sufficient basis having been established. I would rather doubt holding a few seminars qualifies, or every such seminar, held by an enormous number of exceedingly minor figures, however estimable they may be as individuals, would merit inclusion. Something akin to the professor test seems to me therefore to be applicable, and while Omura is clearly not noteworthy on this set of criteria, having published, really, far less than a typical professor other than in his own self-publication, it has been established, at least for the present, that Omura is notable on the basis of the BDORT and his other 'researches' being a form of pseudoscience. That said, I accept that the term is fraught with peril and likely ought not appear in the entry per se. It is however, the established basis for the entry's notability being sufficient to exist as an entry at all, and that fact ought be born in mind, or so it seeems to me. If we were to conclude that pseudoscience is as an uncivil term not to be applied, then the article ceases to have any basis for notability, at least as established to date, sufficient to justify its existence. The pseudoscience label, then, however uncomfortable, and, yes, even pejorative, its associations, is unavoidable in this instance.
* Taking this into account at the least as background, then: We have at present on the table the assertion that 'balance' requires on the one hand presentation of the assertions of the advocates, in neutral terms, coupled with the parallel assertion that reference to the NZ commission ought not be repeated. This is problematic at any number of levels. I will address myself, however, only to the level clearly and immediately applicable. The WP criteria, in my understanding, in such a controversial entry as this, are twofold: 1) Those applicable to biographies of living persons, and 2) Those applicable to articles on subjects in which there is controversy. Let us consider, then, the two together:
:As an article on a living person it is allowable to use the person's own site(s) as to assertions made to the limited extent of noting them as assertions made, by the source itself.
:As an article on a controversial subject balance must exist within the article reflective of independently verifiable sourcing.
:It seems, to me at least, an inevitable corollary that given the limited applicability of self-published sources, viz, statements effectively in the form of assertions by the source itself about itself, coupled with the relative weight of the sole known extant example of a verifiable source actually at some reasonably presumed objective remove from the source itself, then . . .
: . . . at the very least, that the NZ commission, as the sole extant example of third-party, verifiable, reputable sourcing, and its attendant experts, formally regarded as such by the commission, must be given at the least equal weight within the article to assertions made as to Omura's armamentarium, as these are all, in turn, dependent  upon what is effectively self-sourcing.
:Indeed, were the entry analagous to a court it would be assigned greater weight as a matter of course, as the sole presumably objective source of information available about the subject. Equal weight is actually given the assertions of the subject itself, by objective criteria, arguably undue weight.
The article, if it is to maintain balance within WP criteria with respect to both aspects, must reflect at the least essential balance between these two elements. It would not be satisfactory nor acceptable to have the article consist principally of the findings of the NZ commission with an attendant small reference to Omura's own sites, for example. Nor is it acceptable, in my understanding, for the entry to be evolved in the direction of a series of assertions ultimately referenced only to self-publication and promotion while relegating the NZ commission to a few brief passing references.
Opinions? TealCyfre 23:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let Me Say This About That 

message: I would also pose the following to be born in mind, in each person's conscience, as a sort of moral acid test: If this were an entry on Richard Gorringe, prepared in advance of his being charged and found guilty of malfeasance and incompetence which resulted in very real human pain, suffering, and death, and we were to apply appropriate criteria for the entry, would that entry do a sufficiently competent job of presenting the facts so that a person consulting it, having found it via Google or some equivalent, and not of necessity particularly familiar with WP Discussion pages' existence, etc, that such a person might reach the simple conclusion that the alternative medicine offered by the practitioner, who stressed not only his status as an alternative medicine practitioner, but also his status as a 'man of science' in the more orthodox conventional sense, and thus, like Omura, might appear at first glance to offer 'the best of both worlds – sound grounding in orthodox medicine and science combined with an openness to new and less conventional possibilities – would it be clear on reading the article as to the relative balance of factors, would that person be able to trust the article to present, in NPOV the appropriate information and perpsective? It was on precisely this factor that the NZ commission focused, and which, in my judgement, must be adequately born in mind in the presentation of this material. TealCyfre 01:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Moral Acid Test 

message: I am really swamped with RLW (Real Life Work) and cannot address it yet. Hope to evaluate it later. Thanks, Crum375 14:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Farber, P.L. and Koga, K. Analysis of Bi-Digital O-Ring Test in Brazil. Acupuncture & Electro-Therapeutics Res. Int. J., Vol. 23 (1): 78-79. 1998"
My understanding of WP requirement of neutrality of a source publication is that it cannot be related or connected to the inventor or promoter of the evaluated technique. If you think otherwise, please let me know. Thanks, Crum375 17:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Brazilian Reference 

message: I would respectfully suggest then, as Richard seems to agree, that the Work version replace the extant entry. I prefer, as the creator of the initial Work version on which Crum375 has now expended so much of his own effort, that Crum375 make the actual move, at his convenience, if that's acceptable to him. TealCyfre 18:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Crum375, re working on the Work version, I dont mind; there are quite a few bits in the current version that I think are better though, like the Description and Background sections, which spell things out quite clearly I think."
Which, like you, I take to indicate that he can live with the Work version being a new starting point for changes, e.g. the ones he is referring to. It seems then that we have a consensus for the Work version move, which I will do forthwith. Just to clarify, there is no loss of information since the current version is preserved in the history. I do suggest for anyone with some spare time to go through the new style references and fix up the missing labels (but no other non-consensual content changes for now, please). Thanks, Crum375 19:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Done. And thank you, TealCyfre, for all your efforts, in particular this Work version. Crum375 19:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Done. And thank you, in turn, Crum375, for all your efforts. Whenever you're ready to seek further status within WP feel free to advise, I'll be happy to lend my voice. That aside, a question: Can you direct me to a page that would indicate how to markup the form of footnoting cites used in the entry? I know how to do a simple external link, but I'm not clear on markup for these references in the form you've put them, and on which you've asked for additional hands' assistance. TealCyfre 20:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Disregard the markup question I've worked it out. TealCyfre 20:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *I guess I am confused: What does the Bonnano Crime Syndicate have to do with Omura? I waded through the very long legal reference and all I found was Bonnano and his family, nothing about Omura. Crum375 21:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: * OK, I now understand that the Omura-related case came before the Bonanno case, and I now see the Heart Foundation cited in the Bonnano case file, so I guess it makes sense to cite Bonnano, as it shows reliance on the Heart Foundation vs. GM case as a significant precedent. Which is what you've been saying all along I guess, I was just slow to catch on. Thanks, Crum375 00:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Move? 

message: If there's no objection I'm removing the specific date of birth. I had done this on the Work version and I'm operating on the assumption that the version moved to the article page in the switch was not reflective of a choice to retain the specific date of birth. If it was, I apologize, and happy to discuss it. As I understand it it's not considered a good idea to present speficif dates of birth for living persons unless they're readily available anyway, as it may facilitate identity theft. Granted the info is available at the site from which it was sourced, but I'm inclined to think it appropriate to minimize chance of anyone doing ID theft on Omura. TealCyfre 22:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dateless 

message: I am again swamped with RLW, but I thought I would share this with you - it is from WP:Verifiability:
Please read this carefully as well as the full article and related ones. We must find reliable sources according to WP's definition. In my present opinion the only reliable sources we have for BDORT are:
# The patent - for the description of the procedure; and
# The NZ Tribunal - for analyzing BDORT/PMRT by neutral and qualified professionals
Every other reference we have about it would not be considered a WP:RS as I presently understand it.
We have no reference at this point, reliable by WP standards, that even shows us reliably that anyone besides Omura and Gorringe ever used BDORT on a live patient.
If I am wrong, please correct me. My goal is to implement the correct WP policy, as I understand it, nothing more and nothing else. Crum375 01:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I'm game. Richard? Others? Crum375 02:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *If you're up for it, let's, as you say, cut to the chase. Barring objection, I'll prepare my take on a very short, very NPOV, very verifiable entry. If you'd be kind enough, as I don't know these ropes, to set up a similar mechanism as before where I may place it, perhaps we can load out this show and get back on the road to other things. TealCyfre 02:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *You can just go to the Work version and edit it at your leisure. Since we copied it to the main article it is no longer needed and can be used for your test version. Give it a shot and let's see what you come up with. Crum375 02:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Verifiability

message: I wash my hands of this. TealCyfre 15:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Points of Entry, Points of Departure 

message: Richard, unless I am mistaken, and please correct me if I am wrong, your latest reference comes from a BDORT Web site and is a collection of papers presented at a BDORT Society meeting. If this is in fact so, I don't think WP reliable source policy would accept this source as neutral regarding BDORT. Please read the policy sections and let me know if I am wrong. Anyone else is also welcome to chime in on the acceptability of this source. Thanks, Crum375 16:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Japanese Reference

message: Richard, please try to indulge me. I get overwhelmed with too many issues or references all at once. In WP, to make a point, you generally need one valid source. If you want me to address any BDORT source, pick one and I'll be glad to do it. Right now, I am not aware of one reliable source for BDORT besides the NZ Tribunal. Everything else I have seen appears to lack neutrality, a primary pre-requisite (in my understanding) for reliability.
And I fully agree with you, it's not up to WP to assess the efficacy of BDORT - only collect and cite reliable information about it, and that requires reliable (mostly neutral) sources. For me to continue, I need a single one such source selected that I can focus on, not two or more, just one (hint - pick the best one). Sorry if I haven't made that point clear enough up to now. Crum375 20:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: One at a time please

message: Richard, thanks for bringing up the Indian Ocean as example. In this case, the references they cite are:
*Braun, D., The Indian Ocean (1983)
*Chandra, S., ed., The Indian Ocean (1987);
*Chaudhuri, K. N., Trade and Civilization in the Indian Ocean (1985);
*Cousteau, Jacques-Yves, and Diole, Philippe, Life and Death in a Coral Sea (1971);
*Cubitt, Gerald, Islands of the Indian Ocean (1975);
*Das Gupta, A., and Pearson, M.N., India and the Indian Ocean (1987);
*Dowdy, W. L., and Trood, R., eds., The Indian Ocean (1985);
*Kerr, A., ed., Resources and Development in the Indian Ocean Region (1981);
*Nairn, A. E., and Stehli, F. G., eds., The Ocean Basins and Margins, Vol. 6: The Indian Ocean (1982);
*Ostheimer, John M., ed., The Politics of the Western Indian Ocean Islands (1975); *Toussaint, Auguste, The History of the Indian Ocean, trans. by June Guicharnaud (1966).
:Much of this text is based on public domain text by US Naval Oceanographer at: http://oceanographer.navy.mil/indian.html
I assume that these references, most of which appear to be secondary (i.e. not direct research papers but collections of papers, textbooks, compendia, etc), include the facts cited in the article, such as the fact that it's the 3rd largest, etc. 
I don't think there is any unsourced fact in the article, but I can't tell for sure since I haven't checked those books out of the library. If I were to contest some unusual fact, maybe I would borrow the relevant books to find out. 
In our case of BDORT, which is certainly controversial, in fact any Alternative Medicine procedure is controversial (since it is not accepted by the mainstream's scientific methods), we need to follow WP sourcing policy to the letter. Otherwise, we just can't cite the source or the unsourced fact. Again, I welcome someone else with more or different knowledge about this to correct me if I am wrong or otherwise comment on this. Thanks, Crum375 12:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Indian ocean example

message: Richard, it is my understanding that the AMA considers acupuncture to be Alternative Medicine, which is by definition non-mainstream (otherwise it wouldn't be called alternative). Dr. Shinnick is not an MD, and whether his article cites other MDs or not, does not change the fact that his article was written by a non-MD in an alternative medicine journal.
I asked you what fact you think we can get from that article that would be acceptable to WP policies of WP:RS etc. The Shinnick article, written by a non-MD in an Alternative Medicine journal cannot be used to support any mainstream fact about BDORT. In theory it could be used to possibly support a usage claim, e.g. how many BDORT procedures are used per year, but I don't see that in the article. 
I suggest that for now you refrain from editing the Work version, as my understanding is that the entire WP space is subject to liability issues. If you have a specific phrase you would like to propose in the article, please propose it here first and let's reach concensus on it. We used the Work area before to come up with a re-organized version of the previous one, not for changing the POV balance. Your current version in Work, which mentions the only WP-acceptable assessment of BDORT much further in the article, as opposed to upfront where it belongs, is inappropriate. I propose we stick to our Gentlemen's Agreement about the Work area too, as unilateral edits would be disruptive to our collaborative process here. I am simply emptying out Work for now - all previous versions, including yours, are of course preserved in the History. Thanks for understanding, Crum375 10:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not."
Regarding the Work area, as I explained all of WP space, including all its accessible nooks and crannies, is subject among others to liability laws and cannot contain arbitrary information. We agreed to restrain ourselves from making edits that are not previously agreed upon here. If you want to continue to collaborate and discuss issues calmly here, I suggest we continue in that mode, as we have done succesfully up to now. That means no edits by anyone to either the Work or main version until and unless we reach consensus here. Consensus (to me) is not one side believing oneself to be correct - it is all sides (or an overwhelming majority) agreeing to an edit.
Richard, I have tried in the past, and will try in the future, regardless of how long it takes, to follow WP policies to improve this article. If you feel more mediation is needed, there are multiple mechanisms for that, for example:
* Request for Comment
* Request for Mediation Cabal
* Request for Mediation
*Request for 3rd opinion
Please review the above. All of these channels are stocked with volunteers who would be eager to help you if you feel you (and/or the topic) are not being treated fairly and in accordance to WP principles. I personally would be happy to continue in the informal mediator role I have assumed here, but would be also supportive if you decide to embark on any of the above alternatives. Thanks, Crum375 12:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shinnick article

message: Perhaps, effort notwithstanding, this entry ought again be proposed for deletion. It would seem that the only notability claim that Omura and the BDORT have, by WP criteria, is the NZ case, and there are already entries for both Gorringe and the Commission. If the very existence of this entry simply proves an opportunity for adherents to press their case while the entry in and of itself is not possessed of intrinsic notability by WP criteria, why not put the possibility of simple deletion out for broad consideration? TealCyfre 17:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "The entry is not in a 'strange state'. It describes a procedure that was considered by a qualified professional body as being without merit, and yet is still being promoted. I suspect it is not the only one in that category."
If this discloses to you an 'orientation', then please re-read carefully. What I am saying is simply that the fact that a professional body considers something 'without merit' does not preclude its inclusion in WP, and I wouldn't be surprised that there are others in that category. Am I saying anywhere, or even implying, that I personally think it is without merit? Not that I can see. I am also strongly saying that lack of technical merit, as assessed by a given body, is not a reason to exclude an article. I will add here for the record that historically many 'professional bodies' and 'mainstream panels' disparaged or ridiculed ideas that were later accepted by the mainstream.
Richard, if you think even for a second that I am broadcasting my 'true feelings' of merit or lack thereof about this or any other topic, then I have failed. If you think I am not absolutely neutral on this (and all WP articles) and if you don't accept that my sole motivation is to ensure that we have an excellent (i.e. neutral, well sourced) article on each and every topic we touch, then I cannot move forward to address your other points about Shinnick etc.
Please re-read all my statements on this page or elsewhere, and let me know if you feel I am not absolutely neutral about this topic. Otherwise I don't see how we can continue to collaborate. Thanks, Crum375 13:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Modest Proposal 

message: Richard, if you follow the lengthy discussions here and at the new AfD, you will notice that the following events have taken place within the last 24 hours or so:
#TealCyfre noted here that he may submit the article for deletion
#I responded, effectively, that he should if he really feels it's needed
#TealCyfre did submit the AfD, where there was very lengthy discussion, mostly between myself (Keep) and TealCyfre (Delete)
#Philosophus joined the discussion at the AfD (Neutral), then modified the article in what he considered NPOV direction, which I do agree with but of course violates the 48 hour and consensus rule that we (you, I and TealCyfre) agreed to previouly - I have no control over Philosophus or anyone else. He seems to be in Keep mode now after his changes.
#Right now the main issue is the AfD, which is focused mostly on notability. Once that is decided, assuming it is a Keep, we can regather at this Talk page and collectively decide how to proceed
Given the above, I suggest all of us just avoid editing the article for now, until AfD is decided. Then we can agree on an acceptable procedure for editing the article to avoid unneeded reversions and strive for collaboration. Thanks for understanding and waiting for my input. Crum375 10:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that my last major edits were of a somewhat more controversial nature, and were rightly reverted. I have made a minor change to the polarity sentence which makes it not sound like complete nonsense to me, and which I believe is non-controversial. I plan on expanding the Stored Energy section with material from the patent, and possibly making a few more stylistic changes, but will avoid making controversial changes, which can be discussed later. --Philosophus T 13:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AfD Discussion 

message: I've been re-reading the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons criteria. It seems to me clearly and unequivocally stated that an entry is to rely solely on verifiable, neutral, third-party sources with the sole exception of the subject's representing her/himself and that the person's site(s) may be listed as See Further external links. I see no indication whatsoever that, in the absence of subject involvement, information from the subject's site is to be used in the entry – only that the site may be linked to. I will, therefore, revert to the minimal entry, with such external links appended, as seems to me the only acceptable form under WP guidelines. TealCyfre 17:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would further offer the suggestion that any explanation/characterization/description of these very few verifiable, neutral, third-party-sourced cites be approached with extreme caution and vetted first in discussion as there is considerable divergence as to what constitutes NPOV. TealCyfre 17:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons 

message: As I've noted both on the AfD page and in the edit note reverting the entry, I feel there are issues here with respect to both WP policy and legal exposure. I won't engage in a revert war, but I want it clear on the record at this point that a restoration on the part of an editor in my judgement raises very real concern at both levels. I will repeat, I am not threatening action, simply warning. If you feel there is no problem and want, on the record to accept that responsibility, have at it. TealCyfre 21:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *You say 'I am not threatening action, simply warning' - warning is still a threat. Please refrain from making legal threats - it is against WP policy. I am taking you at your word that you "won't engage in a revert war". Please let consensus take over. Try to step back a bit, let the process work itself out. Thanks, Crum375 21:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *It is crystal clear from context that I am not 'warning' in the sense that you suggest. I am simply saying that in my judgement you are creating legal exposure for yourself and WP. I would also point out that your threat of excision on the AfD in this context raises legal conspiracy exposure. This seems to me a curious choice, but you are quite welcome to it. TealCyfre 21:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thank you for your legal advice, it has been noted. In regards to excision of defamatory statements, I believe that is standard WP policy. If I say here: "Mr. Foo is a murderer and killed Mrs. Foo" without very careful neutral reliable verifiable sourcing, it would be correctly excised from the record - no conspiracy involved. Thanks, Crum375 22:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Let me clarify, by "the record" I mean the main Talk or Article page. It normally would remain in the History section, unless an entire article is deleted, in which case I believe it's not accessible to mortals. I think there is a special deletion process from History also sometimes, e.g. when personal info is divulged, and there may be such a mechanism for extra malicious slander - I don't know. If so, that info would only be accessible via court order I would assume - again I don't know. Crum375 22:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exposure 

message: I have found the following possible sources:
#Notice of 21st Symposium on NYAM site
#Syllabus of 21st Symposium on Omura's site
My rationale for allowing Omura's site in this case is that the reference to the Symposium and the titles etc. are on the neutral site, I would argue that we would be reasonably allowed to get the content from the Omura site for this symposium only.
Assuming this logic holds, then the reference to the credits for Doctors and Dentists for continuing education is properly sourced.
I am not saying the above sources are perfect, nor that the current language is perfect, only that there is something there.
But leaving all this aside, can I please get agreement from everyone to refrain from editing the article until AfD's completion? It would make life so much easier. Please? Can you just note the changes you want and save them for later? Or suggest them first on the Talk page? Thanks, Crum375 23:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why will not editing while the AfD is in progress help things? Notability should be independent of the article itself, though some editors might be less likely to vote for deletion if the article is improved. I don't see how making the changes a few weeks from now will change anything, though I admit the AfD is very confused and has become more of a tedious discussion of a variety of issues than a clean AfD. --Philosophus T 00:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Ideally you would be right - why not keep improving it while debating its notability, and I myself have taken articles in AfD that were on the brink of Delete and instead of haggling over policies went ahead and fixed them up myself into Keep status. But in this contentious case I think we should just let the small things ride for now, get the AfD status resolved, and move forward. I think oscillating between TealCyfre's stubby version and the current fuller version would be confusing for newcomers to the AfD debate. Crum375 01:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I added the above NYAM 21st Symposium links and removed the  template. I really prefer to leave the article alone if we can. Crum375 02:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuing Education Claim 

message: In point 305 of the NZ tribunal report, Professor Cannell cites 14 papers on AK, and "that none of those studies reached the conclusion that PMRT was a reliable diagnostic technique."  I would take that to mean that at least some of these studies included BDORT specifically. Why can't we find these? --Philosophus T 00:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where are the papers from 305? 

message: I think that the heroic efforts to establish notability for Omura are, as I've said, a form of trap, however well-intended, that reveal the limitations of this process. The resultant is an entry that, on the one hand, lends more prominence to Omura than can, in fact, be found in the record, with the possibile unintended consequence that his quackery may be employed where it might not otherwise be employed, with possible legal exposure for Wikipedia for which the defense that its procedures were adhered to would prove in the event inadequate. Wikipedia is not, in my estimation, the appropriate tool for this particular task, and the attempt to apply it may prove ill-advised. TealCyfre 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we don't have consensus, we don't have consensus, and the article is kept by default. Having a controversy section makes the article less like NPOV and more like two different sympathetic POV sections. The way the article is organized now is okay - though I do admit the really redundant "this has not been tested" boilerplate should be revised to be more meaningful. I intend to add to various sections later - quite a few could have better and more detailed descriptions in better prose, as well as slight NPOV fixes. More needs to be added from Omura, especially for the Stored Energy Paper and prescription of treatment with BDORT, and more probably needs to be added from the tribunal report as well, possibly citing individual expert witnesses involved. --Philosophus T 08:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closure