Talk:Evangelos Zappas

message: As noted in Talk:Pierre de Coubertin, a few citations or references would be nice to have to back up the claim that Zappas founded the modern Olympic Games. Actually, there aren't any references. --Kimon 19:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: I'm not arguing the notability of the person, just the text in the article. --Kimon 19:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cripes, I look away for a few months and the article gets infested with POV-pushing.   was one of the sources I used in creating the article (original text: ), along with a page at athens2004.net which is now offline.  It's still a good source, and draws the distinction between the Zappian Olympic Games founded by Zappas and the current incarnation of the Olympics.  The Games of Zappas pre-dated Coubertin's Games and were an inspiration for him, but the Zappian Games folded after 1875.  The modern Olympic Games run by the IOC are a different set of Olympic Games. -- Jonel | Speak 23:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The older edit is a lot better and definitely NPOV. I propose reverting it to that version. If there are no objections, I'll do it. --Kimon 01:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually there are plenty of references to back up the fact that Zappas funded the first modern international Olympic Games. If you don't look you don't find. Nipsonanomhmata 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that the "Olympics through Time" source reference should be deleted. The information is second or third hand. It adds nothing that isn't already in the other sources which are original source references. Nipsonanomhmata 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It isn't right to say that the Zappas Olympic Games "folded". Zappas did not just sponsor Olympic Games and he left more than enough money in his legacy to keep the Games going for a very long time. Zappas provided an infrastructure that was used in 1870, 1875, 1896, 1906, and 2004. Nobody else has provided infrastructure for the Olympic Games with such longevity. Describing what Zappas did as having "folded" is short-sighted since the Panathenian stadium has not folded and neither has the Zappeion. In fact, the Olympic Games are still going and the IOC has used Zappas' infrastructure twice since 1896. The Zappeion was used as the Olympic media center in 2004. Clearly, if it "folded", it's been unfolded and reused. Nipsonanomhmata 15:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Founder of the Olympic Games 

message: I asked a citation for his greek ancestry, but nothing is available online. The Zhapa family is Albanian according to some Albanian sources. I really want to believe that the Zhapa were greeks, but there are so many Zhapa family names in Albania and I really don't know any greeks with the Zappas last name, that I really don't know if we are saying the truth here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulmues (talk • contribs) 18:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree and I will ask for a third opinion. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has been already peer reviewed.Alexikoua (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to add to this article the Albanian taskforce project. Vangjel Zhapa is Albanian and I provided above lots of sources. And I could continue. One thing at a time. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately you provided nothing, apart from two nationalistic sources that are pov by sight []([] a Albanian 1960s one). This article has nothing to do with tf:Albania. Why dont you try your luck with Napoleon Bonaparte? You said you have several sources that confirm his Albanian origin []. You might be more lucky there.Alexikoua (talk) 22:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you like this? Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 06:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you know the history of the 19th century of Southern Albania very well. The Lunxheri region had suffered for 4 centuries the muslim Albanians stealing their land. With the establishment of Greece and the independence from Turkey, they would become not only Greeks but also Sudanese, just to have the freedom from the Turks. Most of the Lunxhots were emigrants for generations because of the poor resources of Lunxheri. The whole Lunxheri region was 100% Albanian, and the only reason why they spoke Greek was because of the Church schools, which could teach Greek, based on agreement that the Phanariot Patriarchate of Constantinople had stipulated with the Higher Porte, while the Albanian language could not be taught, nor was an Albanian Autocephalous Orthodox Church formed yet. Zhapa opened a Greek school because it was impossible to open an Albanian school. The Zhapa were Albanians and I know the Labove village quite well personally, so please don't lecture me on things that I know. --sulmues (talk)  03:48, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: His testament is here [], and confirms what the current article describes. Just for the news, Greek officials and the Zappeion institute initiated the renovation of Zappas mansion in Labovo and the old school, since it was completely neglected by the local authorities.Alexikoua (talk) 10:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Pandelis Sotiris (1843–1891), a Greek, founded the first Albanian language school in Korçë (1887). But Evangelis Zappas was founding Greek language schools. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 00:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek ancestry? Or Albanian? 

message: You failed to mention the Greek War of Independence and the Panathenian stadium. Are you going to tell me that it was actually the Albanian War of Independence and that Panathenian is a common Albanian surname too? Are you going to claim that his shares in the Greek Steamship company were Albanian? Why did he leave his vast fortune for the re-establishment of the Olympic Games in Athens in Greece? If he were as Albanian, as you say he is, then why didn't he build a stadium where he was born. Why didn't he appoint any Albanians in the first all-Greek Olympic Committee? If he were an Albanian as you suggest, which he was not, what an incredibly stupid Albanian he must have been who was prepared to die for the liberation of Greece, was building schools to spread the Greek language in foreign countries, and Greek churches in foreign countries. Why did he build the Zappeion and why is it the National Exhibition Centre of Greece? A man who cared so much for Greek Independence, the Greek language, the Greek Orthodox Church, re-establishing the Olympic Games could not possibly be Albanian. Most notably his behaviour was the exact opposite of your behaviour on WP. Evangelis Zappas is a Greek national hero. There is no Zappeion in Albania or Romania. He had his head and his wallet buried in Greece. Albania got his bones (excluding his skull). All Romania got was his flesh. Evangelos and Zappas are Greek names too. Evangelio means "gospel" and Zappas is a Greek name too. Only nobody had to change the name to make it Greek. The name was Greek all along. And ofcourse, Albania didn't exist at the time. He was born in Ottoman-occupied north-western Greece in a corner of what once was a part of the Byzantine Empire. The word "Hellene" is used by all Greek-speakers from all the ancient peoples of Greece. He was a "Hellene", he was a Greek-speaker, he was proud to be a Hellene and he showed it in many ways. His behaviour was exactly the opposite of yours (since you are doing everything in your power to change Greek history in to Albanian history). You cannot call him Albanian in retrospect. He wasn't born in Albania. His people were Hellenes not Albanians. If you want to call him an Epirote. That's ok with me. Epirotes are Greek. But are you so desperate you need to recruit a Greek patriot and hero in to your cause. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 00:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evangelis Zappas was Unquestionably Greek 

message: If someone has something (serious) to say about Zappas being related with Albania, suppose he should initiated a discussion here. Since he is irrelevant with Albania, I've removed the bot-added wpsq.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the following sources he was Albanian:
*Clayer p.201 
*Prishtina Review p.83
*Islami, Frasheri Buda p.81
Above, I had entered sources that the whole village of Labove at the time of Zhapa, Rapper, p.9 was Albanian. I interrupted the talk earlier because a user who called Pandeli Sotiri a Greek and insulted me continuously interrupted a discussion. Now that user has a ban on the Balkans. --Sulmues (talk) 19:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Even the Prishtina article doesn't seem to claim that he was Albanian; from what I can make out, it only refers to him donating wheat to the city of Bucharest. Constantine   ✍  20:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Clayer clearly says "orthodoxes fortune' d'origine Albanaise". Check again in p. 201 . The Prishtina article is called Gjurmime Albanologjike, Albanological Research and speaks about the Albanians. There is a book Labova nder Shekuj, , that would clarify this, but then I get the wp:fringe for everything that is not inline. The proposed move that you have is a sign that he's not Greek, because you guys can't even get to decide what his name was in Greek. In Albanian it is Vangjel Zhapa. --Sulmues (talk) 21:18, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "The proposed move that you have is a sign that he's not Greek, because you guys can't even get to decide what his name was in Greek" is that supposed to be a serious argument? Or the fact that there is an Albanian version of his name? Was Aristotle perhaps English, because there is an English version of his name? And regardless of what the journal is called, there is no evidence that a) Zappas is called an Albanian there and b) the journal speaks only about Albanians, so that everyone mentioned in it must be an Albanian (perhaps Bucharest is an Albanian city by the same reasoning?). Sorry for the heavy dose of sarcasm, but this is a very very low-level argument...Re the "d'origine albanaise", it appears a good enough source, although I don't know what reservations Fut raised, so I'll hold out on this until someone kindly points me to them. Constantine   ✍  21:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Fut's comments: []. Alexikoua (talk) 21:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

text: It's ok if you are sarcastic, no harm done. This is supposed to be FPS input on this article, and I can't see anything he says on Clayer. --Sulmues (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, upon a second viewing, there is a problem here: "orthodoxes d'origine albanaise" is not the same as "Albanians who are of the Orthodox faith". All it means is "Orthodox people from Albania", it does not directly state any Albanian self-identification. Quite the contrary, in fact, for in Ottoman times Orthodox=Greek (well, almost). Zappas may have had an interest in the codification and spread of the Albanian language, but I would hesitate to call him an Albanian without major qualifications based only on this one source. And along comes the source provided by Zjarri, which states that his parents were Greek-speaking. "Greek-speaking"+"Orthodox" means pretty conclusively "Greek", and this squares with most of his life's work. Constantine   ✍  22:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Clayer uses "Orthodox" in the modern sense, but even if she used it in the context of early 19th century, there were plenty of Orthodox Albanians at that time, so Orthodox is not equal to Greek. This would be a Venizelos like move who went to the Peace Conference in Paris in 1919 claiming 120k Greeks in Albania, even if we very well know that he was counting all the Orthodox Albanians as Greeks. If Venizelos had been right, how come we have 600,000 Albanian Orthodoxes now? Since sources disagree I think it should be mentioned in the article that some scholars think that he was of Albanian origin. --Sulmues (talk) 22:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is why I added the "almost". The fact is, up to ca. 1840 almost any Orthodox who received an education was hellenized. Either way however, Zjarri's own source points to his family being Greek-speaking. I really don't see how "Albanian" in the sense of belonging to the Albanian ethnos can be sustained here. Constantine   ✍  22:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Albanian language is irrelevant here, so I see no serious argument to change something.Alexikoua (talk) 22:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Albanian language to someone who would examine this linguistically is very relevant but of course not all have the the knowledge to do such a thing which leads to common errors like your "preferred names" statement.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would appreciate if you stop with the trolling comments this time.Alexikoua (talk) 06:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: again

message: Evangelos Zappas → Evangelis Zappas
Evangelis was the exact name he used (it's also the preferred name form of Evangelos in Epirus). This is obvious in various inscriptions: in his statue in front of Zappeion and his crypt (and also according to his testament) .Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Albanian language is irrelevant here, so I see no serious argument to change something.Alexikoua (talk) 22:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Albanian language to someone who would examine this linguistically is very relevant but of course not all have the the knowledge to do such a thing which leads to common errors like your "preferred names" statement.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would appreciate if you stop with the trolling comments this time.Alexikoua (talk) 06:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move 

message: I can foresee that this source will be denied because it would not qualify as a reliable source , however it has links to many works on Vangjel Zhapa from Vangjel Meksi, Qirjako Hila, Thanas Hoda, Thanas Meksi, Ilir Kontini, Agron Alibali, Fedhon Meksi, Filip Boga, Koço Toti, Dhimo Mali, Fejzi Hoxha, and Foto Toti. It also links how Vangjel Meksi was for full 5 years his master of popular medicine when he went to Janina (from when he was 13 years old until he became 18). He learned from Meksi the folk physician profession. In addition it contains valuable info on the lawsuit for his $800M wealth left in Istanbul, which was eventually pocketed by the Greek government in 1960 through the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople--Sulmues (talk) 04:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: Hello, was Zappas Greek or Vlach? Because somewhere is that he was Vlach, so i wonder to know it, because i know that his village is not in vlachophone part of Albania. Thanks.--213.151.217.149 (talk) 10:37, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Greek AND Vlach. In case that you are not aware, "Vlach" is a lingual minority and not an ethnicity. Vlach language, or Aromunic, is a Latin language. Different ethnicities speak Vlach, mainly Greeks, Romanians, other Slavs and Albanians. See Vlachs for more. As for his nationality, just see were he spent his money as a National Benefactor.
Btw, what is that funny touristic "reference" (no 2) about "Greek-Romanian"? Needs correction to "Greek Vlach".--Euzen (talk) 17:49, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek or Vlach?

message: Numerous publications incorrectly claim that an event held in 1888 (that was neither sponsored by Evangelis Zappas or formally organised by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870 and 1875 Olympic Games) was one of the Olympic Games sponsored by Zappas. The 1888 event was held at a gymnasium that was built from the Zappas legacy. The event was organised by an individual and the event did not resemble Olympic Games in any way, shape or form. All those who categorise the 1888 event as an Olympic event are very much mistaken.
Cut and paste from Wikipedia: "After an extended period of litigation between the Greek government and a group of Zappas' relatives over Zappas' bequests, Konstantinos Zappas secured the execution of Zappas' will. The Greek government used Zappas' money to complete the Gymnasterion, a central gym, in 1878, and to continue the work on the Zappeion exhibition center, which had begun in 1873 and was frequently interrupted ... As in 1875, Fokianos took charge of the sporting events (but did so independently of the earlier Olympic Committee), which were postponed up till April 30, 1889. These Games were not co-ordinated by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870, and 1875 Zappas Games, but by Fokianos alone. Thirty athletes competed in a variety of disciplines including discus, pole long leap (over a ditch), weightlifting, mast climbing, and rope climbing among others. All participants were clad alike.[2]
In 1890, a royal decree, signed by Crown Prince Constantine and the foreign minister Stephanos Dragoumis, announced that the Olympiad would be reinstated, at four-year intervals, from 1888. The next Olympics were officially planned for 1892, but did not take place due to the Greek government's claim of lack of funding.[23] In the event, the Panathenaic stadium would be used to stage the Olympic Games in 1896, the first to be held under the auspices of the International Olympic Committee.[2]" Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 02:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 1888/9 Games

message: I am going to revert to my last version. The content is sourced, and I don't think the edits are that controversial! Majuru (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Your sources are unreliable and one heavily outdated.  www.fedhonmeksi.com?  Kosmas Thesprotos from the early 19th century?  Forget it.  You are a long time user, you know full well by now that we don't use sources like these in wikipedia. Athenean (talk) 22:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think it's outdated, Thesprotos was published in 1964. Majuru (talk) 18:58, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've checked Thesprotos, he is talking about another village, the one next to Libohova, Labova e Kryqit (of the cross), Zappas was born in Labova e Madhe (Great Labovo). Anyway, Thesprotos was a 19th century scholar, in general we prefer 20th century bibliography (For example Hammond says that Labova e Kryqit is bilingual) Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of sourced content

message: Could an admin please put this article under protection? Thanks. Othon I (talk) 13:32, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persistent Vandalism and Albanian POV-Pushing from an edit warring IP. 

message: , stop with your childish reverts. You've continously been doing ridiculous changes to the article (god forbid if Zappas is referred to as an Aromanian before as a Greek in a sentence). You like it or not, there are sources supporting Aromanian ancestry for Zappas. Saying he's an ethnic Greek, and only an ethnic Greek, is POV. By the way, lazy edit summaries such as "rv per sources" seem bad faith to me. I don't think I need to explain why. Super Ψ Dro 09:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You should read the sources before reverting. Many of these (e.g. Gerlach, Chatziefstathiou, and others) clearly state he was of ethnic Greek origin. Thus, the link to Greece is misleading (he wasn't born in Greece), but the link to Greeks is correct. As for "childish", I strongly recommend you adopt a more civil attitude, because next time you make a comment like that, it will be reported. Khirurg (talk) 13:24, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, and there also are sources saying he was of ethnic Aromanian origin. I don't know why do you think that's an argument. The link to Greece is appropiate, as Zappas was a citizen of Greece, but this Greece went through two "stages" during his lifetime (First Hellenic Republic and Kingdom of Greece), so we can't link one of the two. And the existance of a Greek state Zappas could have citizenship from is the condition for us having "Greek" at the first sentence of his article, because if this wasn't fullfilled, to call him Greek and only Greek would be POV. Note that linking countries instead of ethnicities is a practice taken in many other articles, including cases in which the subject belongs to one ethnicity only, see Christodoulos Hatzipetros or Dimitrios D. Miaoulis. I am not even sure why should we link Greek. There are many biographical articles that don't link nationalities. I would accept a solution like that. That's what I see childish. There are many alternatives to this dispute that I can think of but there are users trying to promote a less common practice to state something that is disputed. Although I should note that I thought it was Alexiouka and not you who did that revert (yes, even after copypasting your username, I just mindlessly copied the username attached to the revert I got a notification from). It seemed pretty ridiculous to me that this user would revert me again about this and with such an edit summary but it doesn't matter since it was another user so I apologize to both of you as my decreased civility seemed justified to me with the mistaken user in my mind. Super Ψ Dro 14:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , sorry but I really can't understand your logic. Could you explain why is it okay to only follow the sources saying he was of Greek ethnicity but not the ones saying he was of Aromanian one? Super Ψ Dro 12:32, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Here to provide a third opinion. It seems to me that since this fact appears to be highly disputed, the link in question (and the Aromanians tag) should be removed until a consensus agreement can be reached on the talk page. I will also ask  to please attempt a more civil tone (as opposed to calling people and their actions childish, ridiculous, and/or using edit summaries as inappropriate as "won't be wasting more time talking to a wall"). ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:48, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I just now saw the prior dispute resolution. The ruling was that Zappas should not be identified in the article as Aromanian, so the Aromanian tag should be removed. The ruling did not speak to Greek (state) vs Greek (ethnicity), so it would be best to reach an agreement about that issue on the talk page before re-inserting either link. ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no reason to remove the link to Greeks: Greek in reference to Zappas should link to the correspondent article. He was a Greek patriot and its oversourced (some top graded sources that confirm this statement: [][][])Alexikoua (talk) 17:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: But for the tenth time, there are sources saying that, ethnically, he was not Greek, but Aromanian. The link to ethnic Greeks ignores a total of 7 RS. I don't see how this is fair or allowable, and everytime that I've brought this up, it was ignored. Super Ψ Dro 10:27, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The two are not mutually exclusive: One can be both of Greek and Aromanian ethnicity, Zappas perhaps being the best example. You seem to have a very primordialist view of "ethnicity", as if it's something pure, eternal, and unchanging. It's not. The link to Greece btw is a total non-starter as Zappas was not born there and never lived there. Anyway, given the state of things, I highly recommend some form of dispute resolution (e.g. DRN, RFC, etc.). I also strongly caution against further reverts, because you already have quite a lot and it really won't look good if this is brought to admin attention. Khirurg (talk) 22:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, the "changeable" thing is nation, not ethnicity, but it doesn't matter too much in my opinion. If we consider that Zappas could have been of both Aromanian and Greek ethnicity, then another issue arises, which is that for some reason only one of his ethnicities (under this view) is mentioned in the lead. If we mentioned "Greek-Aromanian" or something like that on the lead I'd be satisfied too, but it's enough for me to just avoid referring to him only as an ethnic Greek there. I stopped pushing for the "Greece" link since I didn't know he hadn't lived in the country (I didn't read the article too much, only the lead). I guess I will consider again a dispute resolution method. Super Ψ Dro 18:31, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit-war 

message: Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? Super Ψ Dro 10:20, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: +1 for removing the link, doesn't seem standard as per GAs like Farhan Akhtar and Jennifer Connelly Clarysandy (talk) 12:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  and numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Aromanian. Why do they not matter? Super Ψ Dro 20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Because he identified as Greek, and that's what matters. Khirurg (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody disputes that. What I am disputing is if that justifies ignoring seven reliable sources contradicting the claim that he was a Greek. Super Ψ Dro 00:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose: Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? It appears you are wrong since Greek refers to his nationality, Zappas had Greek citizenship. I can't understand why you are mixing up ethnicity. The claim is wrong. What's most important is that bibliography agrees that Zappas was a Greek entrepreneur. His ethnicity is described in the relevant section of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 02:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The article Greeks that is linked in the opening sentence of the article is about ethnicity. It includes Greeks in Greece, Cyprus, and also people with Greek blood in countries like the USA, Germany, etc.. Meanwhile, the language section at the infobox includes only Greek as a spoken language, not Aromanian, Albanian, Slavic Macedonian and other minority languages in Greece. The linked article is about ethnicity so the discussion is about ethnicity. Zappas did have Greek citizenship and I don't dispute that. But note that several of the five biographies I linked above are from countries that are not nation states, such as Canada or India, and therefore their demonym at the opening sentence refers to nationality and not possibly to ethnicity. And it is not linked. Why make an exception here? Super Ψ Dro 09:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Alltan (talk) 17:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Linking to Greece is absurd and a non-starter. Are you going to go around and link every Greek person to Greece instead of Greeks? Should we also link every Albanian from what is now Albania to Albania instead of Albanians? Obvious nonsense.  - I didn't think it was possible to create so extreme a straw man, but there you go. Khirurg (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Adding a link to Greece was an initial proposal in the discussions previous to this RfC. However there were two different Greek states during his lifetime, the First Hellenic Republic and the Kingdom of Greece. He was also not born in either. Also, I think it's easier to remove an unorthodox change from a biography article that breaks the common practice than to expand the scope of a whole ethnicity article and set it apart from the rest of pages of the same topic. Super Ψ Dro 10:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC