Talk:Harajuku Girls

message: -I am completely confused - usually when someone wants to make a new article with a name that already exsists, they create a new article, why was this one re-written instead of a separate page being give to "Gwen Stefani's Harajuku Girls"?  The Japanese do not call themselves "Harajuku Girls" but if you search the web you will find 1000's of hits and pictures of girls in Harajuku described as "Harajuku Girls" - it is a valid term in Western culture.Their biggest fan is Cassidy Gazaway.  The original Harajuku article has also really gone down the drain, originally it was about Harajuku the area and the overall culture, while this article was specifically about the western phenomen of "Harajuku Girls" - people are going to search for this term to find more information about the girl's Gwen admires, not her side kicks.  I agree with making them into separate pages, this article was hi-jacked.  If it was found to be inappropriate, it should have been nominated for DELETION not deleted and changed to a different subject! Denaar 03:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't really care if this links to Gwen's Harajuku Girls or not - but to say there is no term "Harajuku Girl" in Japan is plain wrong. But what would I know? I only live here and hang out in Harajuku/Yoyogi/ShibuyaSennen goroshi 16:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened?

message: I've removed the "Controversy" thing for now because, despite two cited articles, I'm not really seeing anything controversial here.  They're backup dancers, that's it.  I'm sort of wondering how far I'd have to have delved into Gwen Stefani, and rock/pop in general, to run into any suggestion that having a bunch of pretty Japanese girls in school uniforms was controversial in any way. --Tony Sidaway 23:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, Cho got a lot of flack for her comments and they were widely reported.  Denaar 23:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for the controversy was that she had a group of back-up dancers who were rumored to not be allowed to speak English (although it's a rumor and may be false, it was a controversial rumor nonetheless).  Their performances often consisted of robotic-like dancing, and they were shown as a group of giggling schoolgirls in many performances.  For more sources on the issue, here are some articles that discuss the issue: .  17Drew 07:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "robotic-like dancing, and they were shown as a group of giggling schoolgirls" Wow that's an issue all right, and controversial and racist for sure, because everyone knows real Japanese schoolgirls never, ever, giggle.24.203.45.242 12:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your comment would more persuasive, were it not for the fact that they are not "schoolgirls". The dancers are all in their 20s, yet made to act like bubbleheaded teens in public. In fact, there is quite a fetish for Asian women associated with the "airheaded submissive giggling [psuedo]schoolgirl" stereotype, and as some Asian women will quickly point out, that annoying little  stereotype is something they have to contend with any time they so much as walk into a bar let alone try to date a non-Asian male. I make no particular comment here on the actual dance group or Gwen's use of them in her career; just pointing out that there IS a reason for the "giggling schoolgirl" thing being listed as something some people find offensive... since, you know, some people in the media (not just the link I listed, there's also Cho's comments, at least one published on Salon, and a few others that I'm aware of but have not read completely yet) HAVE stated that they consider it to be offensive. More specifically, the complaint seems to be that the portrayal is demeaning and reinforces allegedly damaging stereotypes about Asian women as, well... submissive bimbos. Some of the imagery captured of these girls when interacting with Stefani would seem to fuel this; they are sometimes portrayed in a worshipful stance, for instance, and remain waiting mutely in the background while she does interviews in which she jokingly refers to them as possibly being figments of her imagination. It is... strange to say the least, but one can probably see why it upsets some people, particularly after listening to said people's particular complaints (which, to reiterate, largely have to do with fetishy stereotypes about Asian women, including the stereotype of them being submissive).  70.118.80.144 (talk) 06:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The whole submissive stereotype is not some kind of Western fetish. All these perceptions and stereotypes were prevalent in Japanese culture (and other Asian cultures) before they made their way into the west. If Cho really has a problem with American stereotypes of Asian women, she should address the problem at the source - Asia. Repeter (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy

message: Removed the term "racism" from the lead, a serious but unsourced accusation. Also there are "some" commentators not "many," changed that too. 24.203.45.242 12:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Racist"?

message: I created an archive. Talk:Harajuku Girls/Archive 1
I tried to leave any active discussions.
Most of it details the discussion about article content/title and the removal of Harajuku and Gothic Lolita related content from the page to focus on the dance entourage.
I have also removed wikiproject tags. This is not a Japan-related or Fashion-related article anymore.--ZayZayEM 14:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Created archive 

message: how about nearly 2000 matches for the term "原宿の女の子" when searching google.jp ? and believe it or not, the majority did not refer to gwen stefani.
I have no issue with this page pointing towards the dance group, but to say the term isnt used in Japan is totally wrong.
read items such as this http://www.web-across.com/observe/d6eo3n000001x8f8.html to find someone Japanese using the term in a manner that has nothing to do with a dance group.Sennen goroshi 17:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, how about those hits? Considering the fame of 原宿 in Japan and the normality of the phrase 女の子, 17,800 hits (as of a few seconds ago; perhaps one of our Googles was misbehaving) seems low. Let's go one station south: "渋谷の女の子" got 101,000 hits just a few seconds later. -- Hoary 23:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If there is any dispute then then the phrase "No term corresponding to "Harajuku girl" is currently used in Japan for girls who frequent Harajuku (known as a center for teen and avant garde fashions; see Harajuku)." should be removed. The fact that searching for that phrase in Japanese on google.jp yields about 2000 results, shows absolutely that the phrase is used in Japan. If someone thinks that other phrases are used more often than "Harajuku Girls" (which I would agree with) then state it - to say "No term" is false. So either that whole phrase should be removed, or it should be changed to read that there are other more specific terms that are more popular.Sennen goroshi 03:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not convinced.  原宿の女の子 can simply mean "girls in Harajuku."  Indeed, it's used to mean exactly that in the first hit that comes up.  The second is for a Flikr page in English.  Also among the first ten results, a discussion of the Harajuku Girls (Gwen Stefani's), using the gloss ハラジュクガール.  I don't see much evidence if any to suggest that the term is used in Japan the way it is in English.  Exploding Boy 06:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  I'm agreeing with EB here. The example you use seems to be using it to convey "This is a young women from Harajuku", not suggesting anything to do with a particular outrageous fashion style.--ZayZayEM 07:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: In Japan, no equivalent term to "Harajuku girl" is in widespread use to refer to young women who frequent Harajuku (known as a center for teen and avant garde fashions; see Harajuku). The "Harajuku Girls" represent "Stefani's interpretation of Tokyo street fashion in the Harajuku district".
It just doesn't make any sense.  The Japanese language is not obliged to have an equivalent phrase for any and every term used by English-speaking people about Japan or Japanese culture. --Tony Sidaway 08:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Right, of course it isn't so obliged. But pop fans aren't always the brightest lightbulbs, and it seems that many non-Japanese-speaking Stefani fans infer that "Harajuku girls" (lowercase "g") is a particular concept, or even a lexical item. What do you suggest? -- Hoary 08:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The English language generic "harajuku girls" is an obvious candidate term to use about Japanese girls who express their identity in their local youth subculture by dressing in Harajuku styles, particularly gothic lolita, a style that has proven popular enough in the West that I could walk into a London store and buy such clothing (though sadly I no longer have the doll-like figure to carry it off).  Gwen Stefani's use of the term would undoubtedly influence the putative widespread adoption of a such a term as a generic.  This isn't unusual in fashion.  Nearly all common fashion generics originated as a look specific to one fashion house (we even speak of the New Look to describe  post-war revolution in fashions that originated with Christian Dior's debut collection).  Needless to say, Gwen Stefani is an influential fashion designer in her own right, and shrewdly exploits the Japanese connection promoted by her touring image with the Harajuku Lovers fashion line. --Tony Sidaway 09:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, yes, but I hadn't noticed that Stefani was influential or particularly popular in Japan. Thus I don't suppose that "Harajuku girl", or some calque on it, is going to become a regular Japanese term any time soon. It might do, and it's an interesting notion to natter about here, but as for the article itself all this is mere crystal balloc-- er, I mean crystal ballistics. As long as neither "Harajuku girl" nor anything like it is widely used in Japan, aren't en:WP's innocent young readers slightly helped by being informed of this very minor linguistic fact? -- Hoary 09:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, it might be relevant enough to be put into the article somewhere.  I'd be very sensitive to the wording, however, because really I see no evidence that Stefani or the Harajuku Girls have ever used the term as a generic, and obviously it wouldn't be in their interest (in the commercial sense) to do so.  --Tony Sidaway 10:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my experience, the term Harajuku Girl is not used by the girls in Harajuku to describe themselves, but by people who are describing the girls in Harajuku whilst not being an actual Harajuku Girl themselves.Sennen goroshi 13:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  not used in japan?

message: The criticism cited in this article of these four groovy babes, or of Stefani's use of them, strikes me as underinformed or silly or both. Still, that's just my opinion. I'd love to point out that the geisha of today don't look anything like these four, but I don't do so, for any of several reasons. And these seemed reasons to delete this well intended addition. However, I added a link to Japanese street fashion, for those who'd care to look it up. In general I'm not in favor of linking from quotations (indeed, I think the MoS rules against it), but here it seems harmless. -- Hoary (talk) 12:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't say "underinformed" so much as "really really sensitive", by which I mean - I have only noticed women within the Asian community in America complaining about it (Cho, Ahn, etc.), and their main line of complaint that's consistent seems to be "it utilizes the fetishy stereotype of Asian women as submissive, giggly bimbos"; this is something that apparently young Asian women in America nowadays do deal with (at least when going to bars and clubs or trying to date non-Asians, at any rate), men assuming they'll be somehow submissive or some such, just because they're Asian. However, one little article I ran across while looking up stuff related to this group did describe it in terms of a sort of fetish as well as a stereotypical assumption based on supposed traits of certain well-known Asian cultures (Japan, China, etc.), with the whole Harajuku Girls/Gwen Stefani thing being basically implied to be just a symptom of a larger societal issue that Asians have to contend with. Though it's not really well-discussed on cable news or anything like that, it IS kind of interesting, the more I read about it. I'm not an Asian-American, so it had never occurred to me that they have to deal with these kind of annoying assumptions about what they're like. In light of all that, though I myself had considered it just "weird" or "silly" as far as Gwen's little Harajuku obsession goes, it does actually make sense to me now that they might not like the Harajuku Girls or the way Stefani uses them in her PR and stuff. I do think most of the criticism of the group and Stefani is coming from Asian-Americans though, and knowing this can help put some of it in perspective a bit I think. (By the way, thanks for including the link to Japanese street fashion, I think that's a good idea, particularly since some people might be trying to find that when they stumble across the article) 70.118.80.144 (talk) 07:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Japanese fashion

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thread_title:  External links modified