Talk:Road pricing

message: Earlier this evening, user 86.145.193.138 removed a couple of links from the External Links section, including one to the BBC News that I had added a couple of days ago. These links were replaced with a note indicating that news items could be reached via the website of the National Alliance Against Tolls. This organization is strongly hostile to the notion of road pricing, which it describes as "daft". I believe that Wikipedia's NPOV policy implies that relevant news items should be referenced directly, and not via a partisan organization. I have therefore restored the links removed by 86.145.193.138. --RichardVeryard 23:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: I have twice added a line to the 'Criticisms' section, detailing and linking to a current petition against road pricing in the UK. I think that this illustrates the concerns of a majority of the general public on this issue. 'Thisisbossi', why do you keep removing it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.246.81 (talk) 14 December 2006, 13:40 (UTC)
:Thisisbossi can speak for himself, but my own view is that the purpose of this article is to explain what road pricing is, not to encourage people to sign a petition against it. The petition currently has 41467 names which hardly counts as a "large proportion" let alone a "majority" of the general public. --RichardVeryard 18:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: RichardVeryard said it much as I would have said it: an online petition does not do much to forward an encyclopedia article.  A link to an organisation's developed website would be much more appropriate, as opposed to one individual's blog, for example, or a collection of relatively useless names.  The "No Tolls" website, while a hideous mess as far as aesthetics go, is a much more appropriate website for providing criticism of road pricing.  Additionally, the links that keep showing up in each of your edits only cycle me right back to this Road Pricing article -- another reason for my reverts.  I have no issue with your edit which added info regarding PAYD, but I do not feel that the petition reference and cyclical link are fit in Wikipedia as per WP:EL. --Thisisbossi 21:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate your feedback. What do you mean by "the links .... only cycle me right back to this Road Pricing article"? I am afraid that I don't understand you there. In response to Richard, I understand your point of view, although many forums and, for example, the vote on here show a majority (73%) against the proposals. I would be satisfied with there not being a link to the petition under 'external links'; Are you both happy with the edit as it currently stands? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.246.81 (talk) 17:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The petition has been removed pending provision regarding how it is appropriate for Wikipedia per the above comments. --Thisisbossi 03:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, Thisisbossi, I understand you now.. Link corrected, sorry, still getting to grips with this... 80.47.246.81 18:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  I still disagree with its inclusion, though, but first I'll await additional opinions. --Thisisbossi 01:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I support this proposal. The general flaws in such petitions are described in Internet petition, and I can't see that this petition is any exception. I have added a discussion point to Wikipedia talk:External links --RichardVeryard 13:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Support.  This is an important subject deserving of a quality NPOV article. Continual updating of online petition numbers is unencylopedic and a misuse of Wikipedia.--JBellis 21:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The petition has been removed pending provision regarding how it is appropriate for Wikipedia per the above comments. Thank you all for your input. --Thisisbossi 03:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree, but keen to compromise. I feel that if your issues are with the link to the petition, why remove all reference to it? It would seem to me that considering the huge numbers involved, the petition is highly relevant to any discussion of, or article about, road pricing. As such I have added a link to Reuters news article about the petition, and I also think it is fair to add a POV flag, considering the debate and editing taking place with this article. Also, in answer to RichardVeryard's concerns about internet petitions, the one in question is hosted and maintained by the UK government, and the results are passed directly to the Prime Minister. All signatures are validated with a full UK address, presumably to be verified against the electoral register. The target recipient of the petition is well defined, and ballot stuffing, although admittedly possible, is far more difficult than for the vast majority of 'e-petitions.' Midlandstoday 23:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now this seems like something I can agree with!  Thanks for the link to Reuters, Midlandstoday. --Thisisbossi 01:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Road pricing petition

message: "Note that some libertarians in general, however, favor transfer of roads to private ownership, which is likely to result in tolls for individual roads, set on a profit-maximizing rather than an economic welfare-maximizing basis, which in many cases is likely to lead to a higher toll." -- I'm not sure this is a relevant answer to the libertarian freedom of movement argument. After all, in the libertarian utopia private roads might have tolls, but there wouldn't be high gov't taxes either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.133.86 (talk • contribs) 
True, however roads would no longer be free at the point of usage, which is what the "libertarian" ABD wants to preserve, government or no government Cambrasa (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libertarian counterargument 

message: In response to the deletion of the New York congestion pricing proposal here, there is no reason (I think) not to include noteworthy proposals from other places, as long as they were considered or studied at the governmental level. Notable failed or stalled proposals are just as important and relevant as implemented ones. It's your job to include them.
From what I found from a web search, Toronto's mayor doesn't want it  and Chicago is only in the preliminary stages . If you want to include those cities and others–with sources–you can and I support that. But NY's plan has support at the city and federal level. Even if NY's proposal is ultimately defeated, it has been widely talked about and reported in New York City as much as the New York City 2012 Olympic bid or the West Side Stadium, and is therefore still notable. TLK'in 08:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means let's not omit North America, nor let the article ramble too long about a large area where it's all just proposals, either.  One or maybe two paragraphs are appropriate for the New York proposal, and a few sentences about each place where the movement is less developed, maybe amounting to a separate paragraph for those.  Jim.henderson 14:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion & exclusion 

message: I've removed the following
Various trials have taken place in British cities - the City of Cambridge in the United Kingdom, for example, had experimented with congestion charging as far back as 1993. 
The para implies there was a real live congestion charge in place, and the source notwithstanding, this is not the case.  I'm afraid I don't know more, but i'm guessing maybe it was a very small scale trial with a small number of volunteers or something. (I've lived in Cambridge since 1985, and driven in Cambridge for most of that time, so I would certainly have noticed if there had been a congestion charge at any point.) 
Of course, Cambridgeshire is bidding for TIF money so a Cambridge congestion charge is on the cards for the future. Roy Badami 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cambridge 

message: Going a step further to the old proposal to merge this article (see above), road pricing is a very general concept from economics, but in practical terms, as I added to the article, it has two distinct objectives: revenue generation and congestion pricing for demand management purposes. Toll roads are the typical example of revenue generation. Charges for using high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes or entering a restricted area of a city are typical examples of using road pricing for congestion management (see  for a very comprehensive summary on this subject). Electronic toll collection is a technology that can be use for both of these objectives.
If you look a the specific cases in this article, all but the German one refer to congestion pricing (which I already edit to explain the general economic concept), and most of the cases presented here (Singapore, London, Stockholm, New York, etc.) have their own articles. Therefore, the content of the article as it is now, refers mainly to pricing for congestion management purposes.
My suggestion is to relocate "Road pricing" as a more general separate article, and leave most of the actual text here under a new article's name. The new article's name could be "Traffic congestion pricing" or "Road congestion pricing", even though that the concept and most of existing schemes refer to urban areas, so an alternative will be a specific article named "Urban traffic congestion pricing" (as I called it in the more general congestion pricing article). The specific economic rationale for this pricing system could be included in the article, as it is related with the externalities of auto travel in urban areas, such us air pollution, noise, urban deterioration, and the extra costs and delays impose upon other drivers due to congestion, and mainly, to the more efficient public transportation vehicles.
If this suggestion is accepted, the main "Road pricing" article will have the basic economic rationale for all type of fees, tolls, etc, and a reference for all existing applications in the world. From there, the article will branch out to specific (existing) articles on Toll roads, Electronic toll collection, the proposed new article on "Traffic Congestion Pricing" (from where case specific articles will branch out) and any other related article will be referenced from this new main article.
--Mariordo (talk) 14:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for changing article's name and dividing in two articles 

message: And by the way, there is an article called Electronic Road Pricing which refers only to Singapore, city that for some time was the only one to have an urban congestion pricing scheme in the world, but not anymore, since London, Stockholm and other cities have it (as you can check from this article). I try to change the name for "Singapore's Electronic Road Pricing" and added the "worldwide view" wiki banner, but one of the main contributors of that article deleted, and he does not want to recognize that this is no longer a country-specific scheme. You can see that similar articles are called with country specific tags such as London congestion charge or Stockholm congestion tax or New York congestion pricing. For consistency, I think this change would have also to be made.Mariordo (talk) 14:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Electronic Road Pricing article - proposed move

message: I am proposing to create a new article with a title of Road pricing in the United Kingdom. Does anyone have any comments or observations? Is that the best name? Road pricing is certainly the term used in the UK. I would move some of the detail from this article to this new article. There is also some stray general road pricing content at the bottom of the London congestion charge article that I would integrate. PeterEastern (talk) 07:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now created the 'Road pricing in the United Kingdom' article and copied the full text from the UK section of this article and reduced the bulk of the remaining section here. PeterEastern (talk) 23:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a nice article. Nevertheless, you continue to confuse road pricing with congestion pricing. Not only the existing articles here in Wikipedia make clear the difference, but quite a body of transport economics. I am aware that some people confuse both terms, even some journalists in your country. In a nutshell, you entitled the article Road pricing ..., put a banner excluding other charges but congestion charges, and then in the content talk about several charges. I will not edit that article, it is up to you to fix it.--Mariordo (talk) 03:33, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I suggest that we thrash out the difference between 'road pricing' and 'road congestion pricing' on this talk page and then reflect that in all the relevant articles. Regarding who edits which article, please feel free to make appropriate adjustments to the UK road pricing article that you feel are appropriate; it isn't 'my' article after all. Regarding the suggestion of a banner, I note that the current banner reads "This article is about road pricing systems designed to reduce traffic levels and congestion on roads in the United Kingdom. For other toll roads in the UK, see Toll roads in Great Britain." PeterEastern (talk) 10:17, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter, if your intend is to only deal with "road pricing systems designed to reduce traffic levels and congestion ..." then the correct title should be Road congestion pricing in the United Kingdom (in this case "road congestion charges" would not so precise as "congestion pricing"). When you called it "Road pricing in the UK" automatically any direct charges for using the roads are included, so why use a title that does not includes the whole concept?. If you agree, then you just need to do a move article. If you want to keep the article's name, then tolls and other direct charges should be included.--Mariordo (talk) 04:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: Tomorrow I will address the other issues, I am too tired today to focus as required (due to the jet lag). (unsigned comment by Mariordo (talk)) 04:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Does it not make sense to address the discussion below about what the scope of road pricing and congestion pricing are before considering the title of a separate article altogether? However... since you mention it, isn't it evident that many 'congestion pricing' schemes are also considering, or even implementing pricing to improve air quality and reduce other externalities. As such a firm supporter of the current title. Also... is it not clear from the evidence in this article that the term 'road pricing' only came into use in the 1950s/60s to make a distinction between old style tolls which had simple repayment and funding motivations and these new-tangled schemes which included some sort of charge for one or more identified externalities? PeterEastern (talk) 07:00, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately Peter I won't play your game anymore. You made several conceptual errors, then agreed to the right concept but continue to push edits with the wrong concepts, and to make matter worst, you do plenty of edits so it is almost impossible to keep track of your mistakes and original research. I will remove OR (using google as a reference is blatant OR, this is NOT a place to do your research you need third party sources) and tag those edits with blatant mistakes. Again you are adding content to the Road pricing article as if it is the same as congestion pricing, and adding road space rationing is your OR, as this is not part of road pricing. And your tactic of having several discussions opened at the same time not only makes difficult for me and any other interested editor to follow. You are clearly pushing an agenda and handling technical concepts that you do not properly understand. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a blog to push your ideas. Please do not make me waste my time.--Mariordo (talk) 04:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: * Suit yourself, however the topics are only still open because they are waiting for a response from you. Notably some questions relating to parking charges, and fuel taxes from the 22 April. Also a section dedicated to agreeing what the appropriate definitions of road pricing and congestion pricing are. Regarding your particular complaint about my using Google ngram as evidence for the etymology of a word, could you please provide evidence of the relevant Wikipedia policy? To me is seems to be an idea resource to use. PeterEastern (talk) 06:43, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

text: * I do also notice that an earlier section on this talk page titled 'Proposed Merge to Toll road' was unanimously opposed. You now seem to be proposing a similar merge for an article spawned from this one. When we have an agreed definition of road pricing and congestion pricing on this article we can reflect it in the UK one and retain the title. PeterEastern (talk) 07:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed new article - 'Road pricing in the United Kingdom' 

message: My edits to the congestion pricing article and to this one have just been reverted with the comments Sorry to revert the whole thing but road pricing is different from congestion pricing, what you are doing is original research. and Rv Good faith edit: your ideas of what road pricing and congestion pricing are is wrong, road pric is more general.
I do agree they are different which is why I did not propose a merge.
Here are the descriptions I included in the about banners for four related article (congestion pricing, road pricing, toll road and road space rationing) to try to make the scope of the articles clearer and reduce overlap:.
*Congestion pricing article: 'This article is about the theory of congestion pricing and its use with airports, public transport and utilities, roads, waterways and elsewhere. For congestion pricing as applied to road traffic specifically, see Road pricing.'
*Road pricing article: 'This article is about charging for use of a road or all roads within a zone based on various criteria for the purpose of reducing transport demand and influencing the mode of transport. For traditional fixed road tolls, see Toll road. For non-financial methods of reducing demand, see Road space rationing.'
*Toll road: 'This article is about roads for which a charge is made. For information about area wide scheme introduced since the 1980s, see Road pricing.'
*Road space rationing: 'This article is about non-financial methods of reducing traffic levels from motorized vehicles. For financial methods to manage demand, see Road pricing.'
Now.. I do agree that one could consider that 'Road pricing' includes 'road tolls' as well as congestion pricing which relates to the use of road space. You will notice that the road pricing banner did not say that road tolls were not a type of road pricing, but only that the article didn't cover road tolls. I do agree that my lead was probably incorrect, which used to read Road pricing (also road user charging, congestion pricing, road tolls) involves charging fees for the use of a road facility for the purpose of reducing transport demand and influencing the transport modal choice. Charges typically are based on the time of day, the number of vehicle occupants, current road congestion levels or possibly other factors.
I am now going to reinstate my last versions or these two articles and adjust the lead of road pricing.
Can I request that we discuss the matter here before reverting again.
-- PeterEastern (talk) 14:12, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now completed the reinstatement of my last versions of these two articles and have adjusted the lead of road pricing as per my proposal above. I look forward to have a discussion about any remaining issues here. PeterEastern (talk) 14:25, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter you got your definitions wrong. Road pricing is any charges for road users for any purpose and not necessarily congestion or demand management (conventional toll, toll by weight via GPS as it is done in Germany, parking charges, congestion charges, etc.). Congestion pricing or congestion charging is using prices to reduce demand (for any transport mode, not just roads), though it is in roads where the policy is used the most, and that is why the summaries of existing schemes are there). Actually the FHWA is now using the term variable pricing, which reflects better the nature of congestion pricing. You are changing the definitions in the lead to fit your idea of road pricing and congestion pricing, and I think you are aware this is considered original research in Wikipedia. Please continue the discussion here before engaging in an edit war, and believe the existing versions have priority over the changes you are proposing.--Mariordo (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am puzzled. Do you not agree that by your own definition, all that congestion pricing schemes that relate to roads there therefore also road pricing schemes? As such it does not appear to be wp:or if we choose to include the bulk of the road congestion charging related content in the road pricing article? For sure, there are other types of road pricing, but we can add that to the road pricing article as well. Also.. if we retain all the road related content in the more congestion charging article, then I don't see how are you going to create 'balance' for the article in relation to all the the types of congestion charge? Personally I think there is a really interesting article in the making there, but it is necessary to remove all the detail about road congestion charging to make it work as one adds detailed about public transport, utilities etc. Lets keep a summary of road congestion charging in the article for sure, but not all of it. PeterEastern (talk) 16:26, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I have now added a FHWA reference to the definition of road pricing in the lead which, I believe, matches with your description above btw. I am puzzled because your last edit reverted the lead to an earlier incorrect definition which only covered congestion related charges. I believe that this most recent edit has reinstated the lead as per FHWA definition and added a reference. PeterEastern (talk) 17:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so now I am completely baffled Mariordo. You previously reverted one of my edits and requested a citiation to support my version. I corrected the article and provided a citation and left a message for you on this page. You have now reverted the article to a much earlier version supported by a broken link and haven't touched the talk page.  19:07, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please address the issues I raised below. It is not only about the definition. This might help move forward the discussion.--Mariordo (talk) 19:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I am sorry I had to undid some good edit you did in this article, but I was really concerned about leaving wrong concepts for our readers. I would help you next week to restore the content and improvements you did not related with the disputed issues. I can produce transportation economics textbooks supporting the articles as they were before your edits. Please be specifican about your doubts. I am aware that early on, road pricing and congestion pricing were treated as synonymous, but for several decades the literature has made a difference, as well as in practice. Nowadays some people still get confused about the terms. Just google a bit to check this out.--Mariordo (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I would request that we make no further edits to either article until we have established what we are trying to achieve. PeterEastern (talk) 16:26, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter, As you are the one proposing radical changes to the articles, I suggest that we should review your proposed edits in an open forum and come to consensus before implementing some or all of them.  The articles, as they stand, are mature, and Congestion pricing is a GA, so it is best that we err on the side of caution before making major changes.  Ebikeguy (talk) 16:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: For sure, lets have the discussion first, and thanks for joining it. I would however say that the congestion pricing article may well be a good article, but there are only passing references to telephones, utilities, railways, buses, metro and internet which leave me wanting more. Currently over 50% of the content is concerned with roads. Personally I think the article would be infinitely better is the roads stuff could be moved. Also... if the roads stuff is not moved then do we retain duplicate information in both articles as now, or delete most of the roads stuff from road pricing? Happy to hear what people think. PeterEastern (talk) 16:54, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter, I apologize for doing more reversing, but I have not realized the entire scope of the changes you did, and I was trying to preserve some of it. As it was the article became a hybrid of the original with a huge piece of the congestion pricing article (which you copied here and organized differently). Showing the original article facilitates the discussion for those editors that are not familiar with the article. Let's be clear also that you are the one who make this article looks like a mirror of the existing congestion pricing. Furthermore, I believe the first clarification that needs to be made is that road pricing is not the same as congestion pricing (as stated in your edits). Can you produce reliable sources supporting your claim that road pricing = congestion pricing (as per your edits)? Second question, if road tolls, bridge tolls, etc are part of road pricing, why do you insist on giving undue weight to congestion pricing (as per the way you organize the article, and the huge amount of information you imported from the congestion pricing article). I think this is a mother article, road pricing, from where other articles branch out. Third: The congestion pricing article main coverage is about roads simply because most of the transportation and economics discussion about congestion pricing, as well as the real world implementations and attempts are about automobile trips in urban area networks (not about roads per se). Clearly, if there were enough material, we could have separate articles for congestion pricing in urban areas, in rural roads, in airports, in waterways, etc., but the fact is that there isn't. Existing congestion pricing applications are the ones shown in the congestion pricing article.--Mariordo (talk) 19:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You ask me again to say that road pricing is the same as congestion pricing. I again will say it is not. But I will also say again that congestion pricing that relates to roads is a type of road pricing. As to your observation that the text you reverted on road pricing was a 'mirror' of the text in congestion pricing, that was only the case because you had reverted my edits where I had culled the content of congestion charging down. Finally, you ask why I give 'undue weight' to congestion road pricing within the article - that is because there is alreadyy a Toll Road article and that is why I put an 'about banner' at the top of the article explaining that this article focused on congestion road pricing and that the toll road article covered 'traditional' pricing mechanisms. PeterEastern (talk) 21:02, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting the reversion 

message: I suggest we build up a table of official definitions of road pricing from different organisations. Please add to this table as you see fit. PeterEastern (talk) 10:02, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review of definitions 

message: There is a continuing discussion about the distinctions between 'road pricing' and 'road congestion pricing'. Possibly we can agree on the definitions of these in this section and then reflect that across the different articles. I have had a quick go at two initial definitions. PeterEastern (talk) 11:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I will answer in detail but please check Ecopass and Milan Area C so we are in the same page.--Mariordo (talk) 04:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Requesting a rain check. Peter, I will provide answer to all your questions, but as I said before in the other talk page, please be patient and wait until next Monday night (US West Coast time), when I will have time to address in depth all your questions and concerns (now I am only doing quick edits that do not require focusing too much). And please be patient. I know you are acting in good faith and trying to improve the articles, but you are also rushing your edits, so please wait a bit. Some of these issues are not black and white, there is a lot of gray territory as several of these subjects overlap, that is why I need time to answer properly. I do not like to spend time in discussions, I rather prefer to produce to content and update existing articles.--Mariordo (talk) 04:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I will look forward to continuing the discussion on your return, however I will continue developing a range or articles, including these ones cautiously and carefully in the mean time. I say that because Wikipedia articles have many contributors and watchers. We can discuss any changes that I, and others, make in due course. I also know that you are acting in good faith with the view to having the best articles we can on this subject area, however I would encourage you to not rush to the revert button. I say that because on a number of occasions you have reverted my contributions only to later accept the changes as improvements after discussion. I suggest that we maintain a suitable mixture of edits and discussion because we are unlikely to resolve the grey areas without appropriate levels of discussion. PeterEastern (talk) 10:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions of 'road pricing' and 'road congestion pricing' 

message: For the record, an 'Expert needed' tag was added to this article today with the comment "requesting expert opinion (the editor of the most recent edits seems to be confused about the difference between road pricing and congestion pricing), I have tried to help (see talk but he continues to include content mainly about congestion pricing".
The 3rd para of the lead, which contained a discussion about parking fees and fuel duty was removed at the same time with the comment "(rmv more primary research --> you need a reliable source to say it is a minority view, as written is your original research as you are drawing conclusions from the limited sources available)".
A reference to Google ngram which indicated that the term 'road pricing' came into use in about 1963-1964 was also removed with the comment "rmv blatant original research (the editor draw this conclusion using Google, this is primary research". I note that my questions for clarification on the matter from 22 April remain unanswered.
A similar tag was also added to the Road pricing in the United Kingdom article at the same time with the comment "adding tag to request expert opinion, the editor who created this article seems to be confused about the technical meanings of road pricing and congestion pricing".
I note that my questions for clarification from the 22 April remain unanswered. I was surprised to find that the person from whom I am awaiting these responses has made numerous edits to other motoring related articles, in particular to articles about various models of green vehicles, over this period.
Given the lack of progress and the fact that my involvement in these articles was primarily in order to create clear accurate definitions for them, I am now coming to the conclusion that this matter will not be resolved without arbitration. For the record, virtually every edit I have made to the congestion charging article over the past few weeks has been removed the comments along the lines of 'this is a good article, don't change it'. Personally I think it is a pretty poor article, but that is a subject for another time and another talk page. It is however relevant to this issue.
-- PeterEastern (talk) 07:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I also note that the 'expert' tag includes a request to 'Please add a reason or a talk parameter to this template to explain the issue with the article'. No section explaining the issue was added to this talk page by the editor who added the tag. Personally I don't think we need an outside expert, I am sure we can sort it out within the Wikipedia community. I am also am very doubtful as to whether an expert who is not already an experienced Wikipedia editor would dare to enter this particular discussion given the nature of the debate so far. PeterEastern (talk) 10:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the 'expert' tag for the reasons given above - please can other people come into this discussion or we are going to have to put it to 3rd party mediation. I have also removed the 'about' banner because a link to congestion pricing is naturally provided within the first para. I have also reworked the lead for clarity and to remove references from the lead (except for one claims which have proved controversial). References for all claims are available in the body of the article. PeterEastern (talk) 16:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the tags were added due to your edits it is completely inappropriate for you to remove them. And one more time, silence does not means approval or a green light to go ahead. Here we work by building consensus, silence is not consensus. and worst even, because I have questioned some of the content you added. As you said, we need to wait for a third party to participate. So you have to wait.--Mariordo (talk) 17:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter, I do not want to waste more time in discussion with you, but please! get familiar with Wikipedia policies. As you can check here, "Wikipedia articles (or Wikipedia mirrors) are not reliable sources for any purpose." but you continue to do so. You need a reliable source that says "a minority ..." otherwise is your original research, as you are drawing conclusions from a pool of five definitions. I will continue to apply rigorously Wikipedia policies to your edits given your disregard for such policies, your repeatedly neglect of such rules and removal of tags placed precisely because of edits made by you. You really need to study what WP:original research is about and WP:reliable sources. And finally, what I do or don't on Wikipedia is none of your business, it is my free time and I will spend it as I like. Neither I am under no obligation to answer to every silly question you ask. And Silence does not means consensus.--Mariordo (talk) 21:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert tag added 

message: I am signing off from editing this and related articles for the time being after experiencing more reverts and less engagement than with any other subject on Wikipedia over a 4 year period. After one month I have still not had a response from Mariodo to my request for him to justify using certain references to support the claim in the first sentence of the lead that road pricing included fuel taxes and parking charges and then today he again removed the last reference  to parking charges and fuel duty from the lead (which clarified that parking charges were not included in any of the definition of road pricing used as a source for this article and that fuel taxes were only included in one out of five definitions).
I have considered raising our disagreement on one of the dispute resolution boards, but have concluded that it is probably not worth the effort because the article is no longer wrong, it just isn't as good as it could be. I will continue to watch the article and may get involved again if any new people start contributing.
For the record I spent about about 30 minutes this evening polishing the wording of the lead to make it read better without changing the meaning. These changes were unfortunately reverted yet again within 12 minutes of my submitting them. I am sure it could be improved, but here it is in case anyone wants to use any of it in the future:
Road pricing (also Road User Charges) are direct charges levied for the use of roads, including road tolls, distance or time based fees, congestion charges and charges designed to discourage use of certain classes of vehicle, fuel sources or more polluting vehicles. These charges may be used primarily for revenue generation, usually for road infrastructure financing; they may alternatively be used to reduce peak transport demand and the associated traffic congestion or incorporate a price for other social and environmental negative externalities associated with a choice of transport such as air pollution, noise and road casualties.
Toll roads, toll bridges and toll tunnels were often used primarily for revenue generation; charges for entering a city centre, for use of low-occupancy vehicles using High-occupancy vehicle lane lanes and for use of vehicles with higher emissions typically include a cost for other externalities. A minority view holds that road pricing includes more generic motoring taxation, such as fuel taxes and annual vehicle license fees.Of the five references given in this article for the definition of road pricing (from Australia, Canada, the UK and the USA governments and from the Texas Transportation Institute), only the one from the Texas Transportation Institute claims that fuel taxes and annual vehicles licenses are part of road pricing Parking fees are not considered as road pricing.None of the five references given in this article for the definition of road pricing mention parking charges as being within scope.
Many recent road pricing schemes have proved controversial with a number of high profile schemes being cancelled, delayed or scaled back in response to opposition and protest.
-- PeterEastern (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Signing off for the time being 

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message: Just a heads-up that as part of an editathon I'm leading on June 17, new editors might be making some edits to this article. I'll be following up shortly afterwards to check for copyright compliance and other quality issues and will clean up stuff if needed. Cheers, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editathon June 17