Talk:Ezhava/Archive 3

message: Kavya Madhavan is not ezhava/thiyya girl.She is from Saliya community  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sajithmkm (talk • contribs) 08:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "In Kannur, many Saliya families identify themselves with Tiyyas" - A sentence taken from "Saliya" article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.95.171 (talk) 07:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Selected List of Famous Ezhavas 

message: I have created an article List of Ezhavas so that this article will not become to long. Please make sure that all names added to the list has a reference. Malayaliyan 03:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Ezhavas

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Sathyananthikkad.jpg

message: So show everyone what I mean, it looks like the "Poojari" section is at the wrong level.  Do people think it is better at the same level as "Billavas" (both under "Similar communities") or as a subsection of "Billavas"? Also, it would be nice to add something about what they added to the Nema or Bhuta Kola.  Any sources? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you should probably put them under similar communities. There's not much as far as descriptions go for those both communities. --vi5in[talk] 23:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poojari 

message: It has been a long time since I came here. Other preoccupations.
I have the feeling that castes and connected things are not entities separated from other features connecting to a person in this society. Yet, to discuss about them would take the discussion to a wider ambit of subjects. This may not be liked here. In my posts, I did allude to many things which from an immediate perspective did not belong to the subject matter here. Even though a debate on Kalari wouldn’t be objected to. There are other things more closers to the society here than Kalari. 
So I have kept an article on this link, which can have connection to my earlier posts here, but may at the moment may seem not connected to the subject matter. Actually it is very much connected.  
--218.248.68.63 14:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other factors that design caste structure 

message: Its welcome if you add as ezhavas as dalits. Mind it not forget to add Nairs ad sudras. U can find enough references here. http://books.google.co.in/books?q=Nair+Sudra and 
here http://books.google.com/books?q=Nair+Sudra
http://books.google.com/books?id=s0EAAAAAMAAJ&q=Nair+Sudra&dq=Nair+Sudra&pgis=1
Dont say then brahmin treated Nairs  as sudra.  59.162.138.193 13:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: =Nair sudra and ezhavas dalits

message: It has been noted that there is constant vandalism of Ezhava article By User:Vivin and  User:B Nambiar.The User:B Nambiar has been blocked for the violation of 3RR. User:Vivin have been removing sourced content from the article. User:Nishkid64 have put protected tag to the version which has removed many content by the User:Vivin. please find the same here  and . please find the User:Vivin has removed many content from the article. Vvmundakkal 17:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly believe that you people are confused about the definition of "Vandalism". Typical vandals don't provide a description of their intentions. I have regularly described my edits and why I did them. This article is in dire need of improvement. The grammar and spelling are terrible. The tone is inappropriate. There are a lot of peacock terms and weasel words. In addition there is also a lot of Original Research in this article. Previously, the article contained information that didn't even describe the Ezhava caste. For instance, there was a whole section called "Social stratification" that merely gave a list of temples that had some sort of Ezhava involvement. I understand people have some sort of "caste-pride" issue here. I've heard this before. I faced the same sort of opposition in the Nair article and eventually I was able to fix that. My intentions are honest. I really have absolutely no agenda. I'm just trying to make the article better. I am quite aware that I may be stepping on a few toes by including material that is "unflattering" or by deleting information that is "overly aggrandizing". But this is an encyclopedia. And that's how things work here. Hope you understand. --vi5in[talk] 02:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is obvious from this request to move this page to the perceived "good" version that certain parties here have absolutely no interest in improving this page. In fact, the only interest is to present their POV. Let me remind them that protecting a page to a certain version doesn't automatically mean that the version is endorsed. I have described my changes here many times and invited people to participate. However, none have done so. My edits have been consistently reverted and labeled as "vandalism". If you honestly want to improve the article, why not talk about the changes here? Our aim is to build a quality encyclopedia. --vi5in[talk] 04:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed editprotected request.  Work out some neutral language and it will go in.  Don't argue about which version is better.  Make your request explicit and clear; complaining about the intentions of other users (and calling their edits vandalism) is not helpful. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  From the note on my talk page, it looks like someone wants to something like "Ezhavas have historically had no position under the Hindu caste system, like dalits" with some sources.  First, where?  It seems like "Historically, they never found a place in the four-tier caste system of Hinduism" in the intro could use those sources and then more could be added in another section under "Culture" (relationship within Hinduism)?  Thoughts? Oh, and Vvmundakkal, please see the Wrong Version which applies to your argument; everyone see it, it's pretty clear.  If someone wants to add something (especially when you guys *know* it is going to be controversial), for the sake of peace, discuss it first on the talk page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Everyone, stop all this.  Does anyone really think someone is going to all this mess?  Everyone needs to learn how to write shorter paragraphs that are clear and on the point; this is just completely useless and frankly, I'm going to just remove diatribes like these.  B Nambiar, stop with the toady topping insults (and don't claim you aren't being insulting).  As I've told you before, this article is not just a "people in Kerala see the Ezhavas as a backwards caste to be made fun of" which seems to be the only thing I seem to see out of you; more productive about the wording of the article, not just insulting about the Ezhavas or the other users.  Anil, take the higher road and ignore him; if you want to comment on him personally (not about the article), you should go to his talk page and tell him.  And don't think I didn't notice the "Brahmins will have the last laugh now."  Last warning to the both of you.  If this escalates, I will bring in others and maybe just block the whole lot of you.  Anil, if you want argue citations, go to WP:CITE and particularly WP:RS and change policy; I don't care for your comments about the citations (find some sources yourself and make your arguments).  There is a reason this entire article is in lockdown and why I'm trying to force order with an iron fist if necessary. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Constant Vandalism In [[Ezhava]] article

message: Does anyone know if there is a difference between the Bardwell Smith citations in the article ?  Both cites 7 and 8 point to page 27 (a lot for a single page) and cite 24 just references the entire thing (for a minor point). Also, should I assume that 'Izhava' then is another spelling of Ezhava? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Izhava is another spelling of Ezhava. --vi5in[talk] 08:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bardwell Smith citation 

message: Please read/refer the sources
===Abt Guru===
Refer Sree Narayana Guru
* http://books.google.com/books?id=07Y3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA35&dq=Prophet+Narayana+Guru&sig=x0t2wmzaVNJwLRPww35F0G8dD9o
More details
* http://books.google.com/books?q=Prophet+Narayana+Guru
* http://books.google.com/books?q=Saint++Narayana+Guru
* * http://books.google.com/books?id=L3sZAAAAMAAJ&q=Sage++Narayana+Guru&dq=Sage++Narayana+Guru
===Abt Billava===
Even before Guru built temple from Billava community, they accepted guru as their spiritual leader. Also Third statue of guru had built in front of Gokaneswasara temple in Mangalore.
U can read here also. []
Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 06:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandalism eh? I had no idea that cleaning up terrible grammar, spelling mistakes, and blatant POV was called "Vandalism". May I remind you to look at WP:NPA and WP:OWN? As far as the "prophet" thing goes, I take back what I said earlier. That reference looks pretty good. Oh, and a warning. If you call edits that you disagree with as vandalism, you're going to get blocked. Just a friendly reminder. Try to argue constructively. --vi5in[talk] 08:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism By [[User:vivin]] 

message: Even before Guru built temple from Billava community, they accepted guru as their spiritual leader. Also Third statue of guru had built in front of Gokaneswasara temple in Mangalore.
U can read here also. []
Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 06:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandalism eh? I had no idea that cleaning up terrible grammar, spelling mistakes, and blatant POV was called "Vandalism". May I remind you to look at WP:NPA and WP:OWN? As far as the "prophet" thing goes, I take back what I said earlier. That reference looks pretty good. Oh, and a warning. If you call edits that you disagree with as vandalism, you're going to get blocked. Just a friendly reminder. Try to argue constructively. --vi5in[talk] 08:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Abt Billava

message: Well, it looks like User:Dayaanjali feels like I've abused my privileges.  Please comment at WP:AN and if others agree, then like I said earlier, if I suspected of bias, I'll probably walk away from editing the article.  I've already asked User:Nishkid64 about what he suggests for protection but otherwise, I'll leave it to the board.  Lot of good all my work did.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ricky i have taken back my allegeations. please find hereWP:AN. cheers
Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 06:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:AN notice 

message: Theory of Migration from Iran is also totally absurd. There is no need to quote “Northern Ballads” as folk stories are no good source for an Encyclopedia. There were many Iranian invasions and Exodus to India like the Parsis and other Kamboja Kshathriyas who have settled in India. There is no connection whatsoever between these ethnic groups and the Ezhavas.Lambodharan  —Preceding comment was added at 04:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lambodhara, If so, Parasuraman's theory is also no good source for Encyclopedia. -- -- Panikkar
Lambodara , Lakhumitharaaa .. Ambaasutha, Amaravinutha..Lambodara, Lakhumitharaa...
Sakalavidyaaa.Aaaadipooritha Sarvothama, The... Namonamah Lambodara Lakhumitharaa...Bold textKochu Thomman Kottappadi 10:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, some response is a start.  First of all, remember to sign your posts; it helps a lot.  Second, while I generally would agree that the folk stories are not the best source, I don't think it would be a problem to say that 'this folk story says that the Ezhavas came from blah, which this person indicates is Iran.'  If that's the best source, that's the best source; I'd prefer an anthropological source (or both).  Of course, like most of the article there isn't a source at all.  I think I'll go see what others think about the protection; it's longer than I would have liked, but I see that a lot of edit-warriors are not commenting here at all and I fear they'll return in a second once the protection is lifted.  Maybe, I'll wait until Thursday, the first of November and then nuke everything from the article that doesn't have a source; I hope that my repeated requests indicate that I am serious about getting sources about everything here.  Then, I'll lift the protection to allow established users to edit but again, any sort of controversy and it's locked again.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Ricky, as far as the Iranian connection. I left that bit in there when I edited originally because it was there in the original article. The more I think about it, the more it seems like OR. Folk Songs say that Ezhavas came from "Elam". But comparing "Elam" to the "Elamite" language/civilization is OR. Unless we have a source. --vi5in[talk] 08:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Panikkar, again, you should post at the bottom, especially if you aren't going to post with the four tilde that will add a date and time stamp.  As I pointed out, folklore would be appropriate if that is all we have.  However, I don't even see a source for the folklore; there is some agreement about a mention of "Elam" but not about what "Elam" is. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the section; it needs a source.  Again, I have no problem stating that folk stories claim that Ezhavas came from whereever.  You should just have a source. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iranian migration 

message: Just in case someone didn't notice, the article is now free for everyone to edit.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Spoke too soon.  Locked again due in large part to the issues with the the Orkut forum -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection removed 

message: Hi, I have seen from a number of people that there seems to be an Orkut forum out there discussing this article, with a forum moderator encouraging people to edit here.  This is to be discouraged primarily because it doesn't help foster any actual discussion of the issues and just seems like random edits coming from everywhere.  Here, we have a history and trail to the discussion.  If someone could provide a link for the Orkut forum, that would help.  This is a very serious concern which is being discussed on our administrator's noticeboard. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is just a largely opinionated forum. They advocate changing the Ezhava article into one reflective of a small minority of Ezhavas and hiding or marginalizing the features of the majority of the community. I don't understand why Wikipedia should involve itself in Orkut forums, discussion can be carried out in the talk page.B Nambiar 03:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia isn't trying to be involved; I want the discussion on the talk page.  It is not productive to have it there. The notice is more for those users who come here to tell us their issues (maybe a honeypot as well perhaps?).  The WP:AN discussion is just trying to see if we can get a better way to deal with it than simply protect, watch no discussion, wait until it calms, unprotect, and watch it start again; massively unproductive.  If nothing else, perhaps we can figure out who the forum moderator there is and punish him here.  If there is even a remote chance that someone, one person even, there is interested in actually discussion, I'm open; I wouldn't mind the new users.  If the insults and vandalism continues, I make have to go to  warnings and then immediate blocks (which I would really really hate to do).  I frankly hate the idea of keeping the article locked down but still...  Right now, it's only semi-protected so that only delays the issue as they can simply wait.  Frankly, this encourages their "look at them trying to keep up out" arguments and encourages martyrdom.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orkut forum 

message: Can someone confirm whether the citations for the cloth revolt actually fill any of the fact tags in the whole Spiritual and social movements section?  They've been there for long enough in my opinion without a source so if nobody confirms, I'll remove them all. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I haven't really heard about this before either. Dayaanjali has provided links to books that apparently talk about this though. --vi5in[talk] 02:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cloth revolt details 

message: Now that I've probably annoyed just about everyone with my edits (probably the best), I'd like to add some historical details to that section.  Frankly, the whole article should be rewritten in a historical fashion.  Also, everyone, when providing sources, please provide the page number and the actual text you want to use; I'm tired of hunting through these tons of pages of text to see a single phrase that vaguely is on point. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:18, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Ricky, yeah Izhava is another spelling for Ezhava. You haven't annoyed anybody :). Thanks for helping out! Yup, it's really helpful to cite the page number too. I've been using the  template and it seems to have a page number option in there. --vi5in[talk] 08:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Societal position section 

message: Ok, per Theyyam, Theyyattam is just a different spelling or whatever.  Kaliyattam looks to be the type of festival where this dance is done, not a particular form of dance. Confirm? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No Kaliyattam  is just another name of TheyyamDaya Anjali (talk / contribs) 07:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theyyam versis Kaliyattam verus Theyyatom 

message: Anyone know why Sree Narayana Guru wanted Kuruthi ended? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: kuruthi means Animal sacrifice part of the religion. Sree Narayana Guru oppposed this.  i will come with with more rfs.Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kuruthi 

message: Again, particular reasons for wanted it ended?  I could guess but I'd rather be consistent and ask for a source. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: details abt this custom.  Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 07:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That isn't a good enough source for WP:RS in my mind.  It is especially hard to call it an unbiased source. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mock marriage ceremony 

message: How does the Ezhava Memorial fit in there?  It's vague but that seems to belong more in how the Ezhavas fit into the greater society.  Also, source, especially for the time period? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This need not be and added to some other section.
Refs for Vaikom Satyagraha
* Boography
* http://www.kerala.cc/keralahistory/index25.htm
Actually the ist rf can used get many details abt the community.
Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 07:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conversion to Christianity 

message: The below content is requesting citation. 
Ezhavas served in the armed forces of all important kings of the region, such as Zamorins of Calicut, and the Kings of Travancore and Cochin
and you can find it here.  Refer page no 27 of this book. http://books.google.com/books?id=07Y3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=izhava+kerala&source=web&ots=zFl70XFRFi&sig=FhdgryHrCKak2z2bK3yvQl8IjJk#PPA27,M1. 
Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 06:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can modify the section Martial background  like this.
=== Martial Tradition===
Folklore and written records also show that the Ezhavas were a martial class. Ezhava folk songs, the Vadakkan Pattukal, composed about 400 hundred years ago, describe military exploits of Ezhava heroes. Ezhavas served in the armed forces of all important kings of the region, such as Zamorins of Calicut, and the Kings of Travancore and Cochin. Their martial Mobillty is so well recognised with community title chekon, meaning soldier.  Bardwell L. Smith, Religion and Social Conflict in South Asia. (BRILL publications, 1976,),  Page 27Bardwell L. Smith, Vadakkan and Thekkan Pattukal. (Sri Rama Vilasom Press, 1967), Page 128 - 148Nagam Aiya, Travancore State Manual by Nagam Aiya  Nagam Aiya, Travancore State Manual by Nagam Aiya</ref> They enjoyed better status before the arrival of the brahmins from north.
The Encyclopedia published by the Government of Kerala describe the martial tradition of Ezhavas such as Aromal Chekavar, Unniyarcha etc. That is an authentic source.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.196.160.140 (talk) 23:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have proposed to remove following part from the section as the kottaram Vaidyan means Palace Physician and can part of the Ayurvedic vaidyars subsection of the section past occupations.
Many from community became Kottaram Vaidyan(palace physicians) of important kings in the region.Bardwell L. Smith, Religion and Social Conflict in South Asia.  (BRILL publications, 1976,),  Page 27Bardwell L. Smith, Vadakkan and Thekkan Pattukal. (Sri Rama Vilasom Press, 1967), Page 128 - 148
Vadakkan paattukal are Ballads of North Kerala and not ezhava folk songs :-))) If any community has a claim on it i think it is the "Panan" caste :-). It is definitely a historocal fact that the sub sect of chekors were a martial families and definitely there were vaidayrs like Itty achuthan.I definitely think it is historically true to state these things. But care has to be taken that since that both these professions were "fringe" and not the predominant profession of the community and therefore it would be nice if care is taken that overgeneralization does not happen.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Panars are the people who sang these songs. And the characters like Aaromal, Unniarcha were thiyya. If you don't know that it's your problem. I don't think anywhere it mentioned that all Ezhavas were martial. Remember that Aiyyappan's kalari teacher was an Ezhava. Panikkar 16:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ricky, Though book is a better reference, this page can also be used as a reference for martial tradition.  http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sundayItems.asp?id=SET20021221042249&eTitle=Think+Piece&rLink=0 . -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panikkar (talk • contribs) 12:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Please find more references abt martial backgound of ezhavas.
# Link  Its they also belong to martial class and chekon the title show that.
# Link  This says chegos(ezhavan or chekavan) who came in ancient time to this country. The tradition is that they came from Cylon and belongs to millitary caste.  
#refer point 108 of this page here Link . page number 50.  The book name is Hendrik Adriaan Van Reede Tot Drakenstein (1636-1691) and Hortus Malabaricus by J. Heniger.  . Published 1986 CRC Press. It says Ezhavas(otherwise called silgos), tree climbers , also bound to wars and arms. These people will also serve to teach nayros in fencing school;further theior occupation is to tap coconut trees and suri, arrack and sugar therefrom, so that they usually have plenty of pelf.
#link. its here also. 
124.125.228.205 07:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, I'll be honest that I haven't read all the material (frankly, I would rather someone say "this page indicates X") but I think the problem comes down to the issue of "what does it mean to be in a class?" and "at what time were they in a class?"  By saying the Ezhavas were in a martial class, everyone is really saying they had a tradition of jobs in that class, correct?  I know the language is mangled everyone (please don't point me to other articles that use that wording) so I just want to understand what exactly everyone is saying.  It is obvious that there is no martial class (for anyone) in today's modern society.  I hope that is right.  Frankly, I find this a sad time waste for this article.  I think a much better (and more sympathetic) story would be "Ezhavas were a top level or just an equal group in the past, the Hindu caste system came in and pushed them (why them in particular is interesting), and now with the social reforms, both societal changes and government forced, the group is moving up."  If that sounds accurate, then I hope people could work on that tale.  I would hope that the article expands enough that we could be forced in the future to expand this story into different articles because it is too damn large (which is the right way to have multiples articles).  However, it seems like a number of people are intent on using false and fake sources for their own goals and to get their own wording in.  Sorry to hear that and I really have to let this article go.  Being challenged constantly is not a goal of mine.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ref about army of different kingdoms

message: Folklore and written records also show that the Ezhavas were a martial class. Ezhava folk songs, the Vadakkan Pattukal, composed about 400 hundred years ago, describe military exploits of Ezhava heroes. Ezhavas served in the armed forces of all important kings of the region, such as Zamorins of Calicut, and the Kings of Travancore and Cochin. Their martial Mobillty is so well recognised with community title chekon, meaning soldier.  Bardwell L. Smith, Religion and Social Conflict in South Asia. (BRILL publications, 1976,),  Page 27Bardwell L. Smith, Vadakkan and Thekkan Pattukal. (Sri Rama Vilasom Press, 1967), Page 128 - 148Nagam Aiya, Travancore State Manual by Nagam Aiya  Nagam Aiya, Travancore State Manual by Nagam Aiya</ref> They enjoyed better status before the arrival of the brahmins from north.
The Encyclopedia published by the Government of Kerala describe the martial tradition of Ezhavas such as Aromal Chekavar, Unniyarcha etc. That is an authentic source.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.196.160.140 (talk) 23:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have proposed to remove following part from the section as the kottaram Vaidyan means Palace Physician and can part of the Ayurvedic vaidyars subsection of the section past occupations.
Many from community became Kottaram Vaidyan(palace physicians) of important kings in the region.Bardwell L. Smith, Religion and Social Conflict in South Asia.  (BRILL publications, 1976,),  Page 27Bardwell L. Smith, Vadakkan and Thekkan Pattukal. (Sri Rama Vilasom Press, 1967), Page 128 - 148
Vadakkan paattukal are Ballads of North Kerala and not ezhava folk songs :-))) If any community has a claim on it i think it is the "Panan" caste :-). It is definitely a historocal fact that the sub sect of chekors were a martial families and definitely there were vaidayrs like Itty achuthan.I definitely think it is historically true to state these things. But care has to be taken that since that both these professions were "fringe" and not the predominant profession of the community and therefore it would be nice if care is taken that overgeneralization does not happen.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Panars are the people who sang these songs. And the characters like Aaromal, Unniarcha were thiyya. If you don't know that it's your problem. I don't think anywhere it mentioned that all Ezhavas were martial. Remember that Aiyyappan's kalari teacher was an Ezhava. Panikkar 16:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martial Tradition

message: What?!. How are all Ezhavas martial? there are references that claim they are all a martial class?. First Elam migration, now this?. If some members of Ezhavas were employed in small amounts in armies of Varmas across Kerala according to references, and I think someone mentioned they teach Kalaripayattu in south/central Kerala, but that does not warrant the whole community the description of a martial class. I have lived in Kerala(Kanhangad & Kannur) and out of the descriptive terms for Ezhavas/Billavas/Thiyyas I have heard, martial class was definitely not one of them. "Many from community became Kottaram Vaidyan(palace physicians) of important kings in the region.[1][2][3][4]". Ok so "many" of them were palace physicians but they are also a martial class, why not add that they are kings as well while you're at it, which of course one user mentioned unsurprisingly. Admin needs to scrutinize the martial class claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B Nambiar (talk • contribs) 08:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ricky, Though book is a better reference, this page can also be used as a reference for martial tradition.  http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sundayItems.asp?id=SET20021221042249&eTitle=Think+Piece&rLink=0 . -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panikkar (talk • contribs) 12:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please find more references abt martial backgound of ezhavas.
# Link  Its they also belong to martial class and chekon the title show that.
# Link  This says chegos(ezhavan or chekavan) who came in ancient time to this country. The tradition is that they came from Cylon and belongs to millitary caste.  
#refer point 108 of this page here Link . page number 50.  The book name is Hendrik Adriaan Van Reede Tot Drakenstein (1636-1691) and Hortus Malabaricus by J. Heniger.  . Published 1986 CRC Press. It says Ezhavas(otherwise called silgos), tree climbers , also bound to wars and arms. These people will also serve to teach nayros in fencing school;further theior occupation is to tap coconut trees and suri, arrack and sugar therefrom, so that they usually have plenty of pelf.
#link. its here also. 
124.125.228.205 07:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, I'll be honest that I haven't read all the material (frankly, I would rather someone say "this page indicates X") but I think the problem comes down to the issue of "what does it mean to be in a class?" and "at what time were they in a class?"  By saying the Ezhavas were in a martial class, everyone is really saying they had a tradition of jobs in that class, correct?  I know the language is mangled everyone (please don't point me to other articles that use that wording) so I just want to understand what exactly everyone is saying.  It is obvious that there is no martial class (for anyone) in today's modern society.  I hope that is right.  Frankly, I find this a sad time waste for this article.  I think a much better (and more sympathetic) story would be "Ezhavas were a top level or just an equal group in the past, the Hindu caste system came in and pushed them (why them in particular is interesting), and now with the social reforms, both societal changes and government forced, the group is moving up."  If that sounds accurate, then I hope people could work on that tale.  I would hope that the article expands enough that we could be forced in the future to expand this story into different articles because it is too damn large (which is the right way to have multiples articles).  However, it seems like a number of people are intent on using false and fake sources for their own goals and to get their own wording in.  Sorry to hear that and I really have to let this article go.  Being challenged constantly is not a goal of mine.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism for Martial Tradition

message: Ok, guys I don't there is a right way to say "they belong/they are the martial caste; they don't", whatever.  That isn't the distinction I'm worried about.  Again, I will repeat.  Is the point that (a) The Ezhavas consider themselves a martial class (like the Sikh solider) (b) within Kerala/India/Hindus consider the Ezhavas a martial class (doubtful for now but maybe in the past?) or (c) the world has considered them a martial class due to what they've done (very unlikely)? Everyone remember, the terms and words are supposed to be in the context of the entire world, not just how the Ezhavas, Hindus, India itself, whoever see them. There is like no outside clear perspective in this article at all.  Either way, I think Religion and Conflict that User:Dayaanjali pointed out at the top have the best description.  Historically, like the Nairs, the Ezhavas identified themselves as a martial class (a la the Sikhs) but something changed and they are no longer thought of that way.  The best wording (I'd remove the Sikh part but otherwise) would seem to be "Folklore and written records indicate that the Ezhavas identified themselves as a martial class."  Then the folklore, serving in armies stuff.  The doctors stuff doesn't belong (unless someone tells me how a martial class and being physicians are related). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a single overall question 

message: Just in case someone notices, I've merged the "Martial background" section into "Martial traditions" so that it flows better.  Since I think everyone agrees that the martial tradition, whatever it is, is an older tradition and no longer really current. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections merged 

message: Chogans, chegos, ezhavas, siegos, silgos, tifedoors, tiyyas, ilava, izhava, izhuva, ezhuva
124.125.228.205 10:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you point me a source that references all those name?  Most I understand are just do the nature of translation but just would like a single clean cite. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name used  for the community in international books

message: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/24391829.cms
Can we have a section for this? Is he (Rakesh) the first non-brahmin to be appointed as priest in a Devaswom owned temple? Panikkar 20:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A section just for one person? There would need to be a very large number of people doing this for it to describe the actions of the entire caste. I don't think it's the place to describe a select few. Also, the article generalizes with "non-Brahmin" and gives the example of Rakesh. --vi5in[talk] 04:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not asking to include this incident alone. This is just an example. There are other Ezhavas who are priests in temples. Adding such an information will not generalize the community. Panikkar 16:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, then you understand sort of why a single incident doesn't work.  I do think a sentence (maybe just a parenthetical) would fit in nicely in a section about reforms or about how Ezhavas fit into society.  Actually I am much more interested though in finding out more about the Supreme Court decision.  Can you find articles about that?  I think a topic like "the Supreme Court said this about all Ezhavas" and like reforms would help and this would just be an example. Do you think that works better, Panikkar?  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: In retrospect, Panikkar, are there articles about when the Ezhavas were removed from the temples?  I am just trying to get a picture of the significance of this.  It is obviously a very significant event for you, but we need some idea of its worldwide (or societal) significance to properly put it in context.  As you can imagine, a single sentence saying "Hey, a non-brahmin was appointed as a priest in a Devaswom owned temple" is not really clear why anyone should care (especially using the more general non-brahmin instead of specifically Ezhavas).  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ezhavas performing Brahmanical duties

message: LTTE talks about Thamizh Eelam ( Liberation Tigers of Thamizh Eelam). Eezham is Srilanka or northern part of the island. Caste name of chekavans (chons) in central Kerala is given as Eezhavan or simply "Eezham". In documents a typical statement is " Kumaran, 48 years, Eezham, Swastham..." ' Elam' is only another spelling for 'Eezham'. Simhalham (sanskrit) became Seehalham and Seelham and later Eelham and Eezham (Thamizh). Ezhavan is Simhalan or Srilankan. The great poet Kunjan nambiar calls Ezhavan, a 'Bouddhan' or Buddhist. Even though community memebers are called Srilankans all of them have not come from there. Analogy of Kerala Muslims being called Jonakar. Jonakar means the Greeks. All know that Kerala muslims have not come from Greece. The ezahavans were called Srilankans probably because they were converted into Buddhism by the Srilankan Bhikkhus. Linguistic proof is against mass migration from Srilanka to Kerala. Their language belongs to Indo-European (Aryan) family but ezhavans speak a Dravidan language. If there was mass migraion ezhava languagae would have been Indo-European. 
Vvmundakkal (talk) 08:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide a source for your speculation.  Saying how organizations describe themselves and you saying your personal views (which is against the policy of original research) of what it means is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.  It doesn't pass the require tests of a reliable source or the greater verifiability standard.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ezhava buddhist origin

message: This section is only for collecting references. Not for fight.
Aiyyappan's Guru, Mailikapurathamma - http://books.google.com/books?id=v-w8AAAAMAAJ&dq=ezhava%2Bkalari&q=ezhava&pgis=1 Panikkar 18:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't we have anything better than a [Chandamama]] article ? Tintin 09:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that Chandamama or something else ? Tintin 10:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: its from Chandamama Publications not a chandamama magazine. its says Original from the University of Michigan
Vvmundakkal 11:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

text: For 1, I thought I discussed it earlier; that makes sense for it says "the Izhavas may have been a martial class" which is in the article already.  For 2, it seems a little odd to be that specific about the exact event that determined a class identification, but it also is an 1862 book.  For 3, you are seriously trying to cite a book on Indian flora for something this controversial, especially when it says that they "are bound to wars and arms"? For 4, I'd said this before but websites are given less authority than text.  However, the article already says that historically, the Ezhavas identified themselves as a martial class.  That is all we have; we don't have indications that other groups identified them as such.  Am I wrong?  If so, what do you think it should say? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, and The Heritage cited by Panikkar is the source I am looking at in the next section.  While I am concerned about taking a single sentence from a magazine from almost two decades ago, it seems to fit.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Hi, in the "Buddhist roots" section, there is a old cite to I assume to "(II, 845)" to the Travancore State Manual.  Does anyone know if there is an electronic link to it?  I'm assuming that this is the same manual that is cited as reference 9 (confirmation?), so I have the author's name to add (since we have the exact page number, I'm not going to combine it with the regular one). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Travancore State Manual source 

message: Can someone who knows explain exactly what the title of "K R Narayanan, Ezhavar Oru Padanam Vevekodayam publications, 1967) page27" is?  I assume it is author: K. R. Narayana, title: Ezhavar Oru Padanam, publisher: Vevekodayam publications, year: 1967, page 27. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book title 

message: Ok, this is the most interesting discussion on the issue I've seen.  According to Kaleidoscopic Ethnicity, although the Ezhavas performed the same tasks as the Sudras (the fourth caste in the system), they were considered to be avarna (without varnas) or unclean or "untouchable."  Now, here is the interesting part: with the caste they were considered at the top of the caste group known as tindal jati (those who pollute from a distance).  They were said to pollute from a distance of 32 feet (pretty strangely specific) so this is why they were unable to attend the temples and created their own ones.  If anyone can confirm, we have a very good source for a number of details.  I'll add what is already there unsourced. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Kaleidoscopic Ethnicity'' and untouchability 

message: Does anyone have a idea why there is split between the custom and culture sections?  They seem to fit better under a single heading.  I think a section called "Culture" and then subsections for "Family" and one "Rituals" (where all the ritual dances and arts, snake worship, and the temple rituals all fit).  Suggestions? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and I also think it would be helpful to have a few pictures of Ezhavas there without the traditional makeup, which should go at the top.  The goal is to get an article on this populace, not just about their cultural traditions.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture versus Custom sections 

message: This topic attracts a lot of trolls who are simply looking to get a rise out of people by writing inflammatory and generally useless comments. Please don't respond to them and encourage them. --vi5in[talk] 07:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, I encourage simply archiving their comments if they continue to waste people's time, especially if they are simply insults. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't feed the trolls!