Talk:List of current cardinals

message: The WP Manual of Style says:
Following that style guideline, citations to Vatican biographies should use mixed case, Sodano not SODANO, though the Vatican uses ALL CAPS for the cardinal’s last name. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed; thanks for pointing this out. (Frankly, I had literally no idea that this rule existed. Perhaps I should read the MOS more.) RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 08:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ALL CAPS 

message: Could we determine the exact precedence for Cardinals Darmaatmadja and Ortega y Alamino?
Sources from 1994, such as Angelus when the Consistory was announced, and a report in AAS show Card. Ortega y Alamino first. On the other hand, documents from the 2005 Conclave, like AAS or the daily Bollettino have Card. Darmaatmadja first. I would go for the 1994 version, as the original one. Is anyone aware of any changes between 1994 and 2005? 
Varro (talk) 15:47, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This is certainly a good question – one that I wasn't actually aware of before. Unfortunately, I can't find any evidence to account for the change in precedence, though I agree that we should keep the original 1994 one, pending further information to clarify the situation. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 14:28, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Precedence 

message: It appears the birthdate of Cardinal John Njue is unknown. Vatican sources say only 1944. It’s not unreasonable to say 31 December 1944 as we do now, but it needs an explanatory note. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:44, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: On the topic of Vatican sources, Njue's personal biography page notes only the year, but the statistics lists (for example, by age) qualifies his birth date as 31 December. I've added a note to explain this matter, as suggested. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 14:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Njue's personal biography page now indicates 1 January 1946. Salutmoncon (talk) 11:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean his official Holy See bio I suppose. I see that HERE. And that's the date used on the Holy See's list of electors HERE. Very interesting. The change seems to have gone unnoticed. The most recent archived version from 27 August 2023 still said "born in 1944". I believe we need to follow the official source on this, probably with an appropriate note. Amazing that such a change extending his term as a cardinal elector has been made without public notice.Rutsq (talk) 17:06, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Annuario Pontificio 2024 p78 gives his birthday as 1 Jan 1946. (AP 2023 p71* gave it as "nell'anno 1944"). Dcheney (talk) 17:35, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Change made. Rutsq (talk) 17:43, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Njue 

message: This article used to have a paragraph in the lead about living "former cardinals". This included any living people who used to be cardinals (Popes Benedict XVI and Francis and, as a related note, up to his death, Cardinal Keith O'Brien). It was most recently removed by the user at IP .
It read:
There are two living former cardinals: Joseph Ratzinger and Jorge Mario Bergoglio, who were cardinals at the time of their respective elections as Pope Benedict XVI (now Pope emeritus) on  and as Pope Francis on .
Personally, in the interest of completeness, I would be in favour of such a paragraph in the article, as it still represents an intersection of :Category:Living people and of :Category:Roman Catholic cardinals (or of one of the latter's subcategories). For example, Pope Francis is in :Category:Living people and in :Category:Argentine cardinals. This makes him technically a living cardinal, despite having been elevated to the papacy. In the interest of general consensus, would such a paragraph on former cardinals be a viable addition (restoration?) to this article? RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 15:47, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it seems appropriate to me as well. Although I would disagree about them being a "living cardinal" - they are living and they were cardinals. --Dcheney (talk) 05:22, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree with the inclusion Emk9 (talk) 05:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

text: That was indeed what we did, yes. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 02:21, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of "former cardinals"? 

message: Is there a source for dispensation of cardinal-designate Aquilino Bocos Merino? Some octagenarian cardinals did receive the episcopal consecation after being appointed to the College of Cardinals - Julien Ries, Prosper Grech being the latest examples. I would wait until the consistory before adding the footnote. Varro (talk) 15:03, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, so I guess we'll remove it for the time being. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 15:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The dispensation (or consecration) typically occurs a week or two before the Cardinal ceremony. Worst case, we'll find out as the booklets for the ceremony are made public either that morning or the night before. --Dcheney (talk) 15:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We now know that he was consecrated a titular archbishop on 16 Jun 2018. --Dcheney (talk) 10:42, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispensation 

message: I don't think this change is appropriate. Nothing in the process documents suggests it is temporary in any sense. The new Pope has the option to restore the previous incumbent (and it has generally been the practice in recent years), but that is purely at the discretion of the new Pope. --Dcheney (talk) 10:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted the change. Thanks for notifying. RAVENPVFF | talk ~ 11:02, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Temporarily" Suspended 

message: In the list of 5 October 2019 cardinals, José Tolentino Calaça de Mendonça is alphabetized as 
*Calaça de Mendonça, José Tolentino.
The Vatican announcement of 1 September gives his name as 
*José Tolentino Mendonça here
and
*José Tolentino Calaça de Mendonça here
while his appointment as archivist identified him as
*José Tolentino Calaça de Mendonça
He used that version on his CV published by the Catholic University of Portugal, which you can see on the archived version of his CV here. Though the University now refers to him as Dom Tolentino here.
His WP entry at present treats his name inconsistently, in part I believe thanks to an inexperienced though knowledgeable editor's work. 
That editor, comfortable with Portuguese sources, has objected that "In Portugal he is known as José Tolentino, José Tolentino Mendonça (see his books and present chronicles in Expresso), Father Tolentino and now Dom or D. (Bishop) Tolentino never as Mendonça." His claim is easily verified. The sources seem to drop the "Calaça de" and use Tolentino as his last name adding Mendonça on occasion. (One tosses in the "de" as in José Tolentino de Mendonça in an article that otherwise calls him José Tolentino Mendonça and Tolentino Mendonça.)
If he and his publishers and the Portuguese press never use the Calaça or Calaça de, and the Holy See is inconsistent, should we? Is Tolentino the first part of his last name as Portuguese usage seems to construe it? Thoughts? Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:27, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Portuguese Wikipedia lists him as "Mendonça, José Tolentino Calaça de". Varro (talk) 11:21, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: His WP entry on Portuguese WP is titled "José Tolentino Mendonça" and begins with the name "José Tolentino Calaça de Mendonça". The DEFAULTSORT field is vacant, as is often the case on Portuguese WP, so he appears in Category lists under"J". Where else do you see him "listed"? Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 11:39, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Lista de cardeais. Varro (talk) 12:46, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I posted a query there. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 12:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The booklet for the Consistory ceremony lists him as José Tolentino CALAÇA DE MENDONÇA . Varro (talk) 11:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've modified his data-sort-value in the table to sort under "Calaca de Mendonca" for now. Also, like last year, I've created a page in my userspace with what this article should look like after the consistory; someone could copy that over to here for easy updating. Just remember to unhide the categories at the very bottom. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 14:28, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done; thanks. No surprises in the Orders. Varro (talk) 14:34, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just an FYI, for my site, I show his last name as Calaça de Mendonça but list him in indexes based on just Mendonça. --Dcheney (talk) 05:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  José Tolentino Mendonça 

message: Just a footnote, I suppose, but America notes here that the count of electors is 128, due to fall to 124 in mid-October, and adds: "Since one cardinal elector is currently in prison (George Pell of(Australia), if a conclave were to be held this year, there would be a maximum of 123 electors." Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 16:47, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's really a question of semantics here. Pell remains eligible to vote in a conclave (though he almost certainly won't be doing so while under imprisonment); he thus remains a cardinal elector for all intents and purposes. We could probably make a note of his situation on the list of cardinal electors for the next conclave, assuming that he remains in prison at least until then. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 02:25, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Pell attending or not attending the conclave is a situation that will arise once there IS a conclave. Furtheron, there is a still ongoing appeal in his case. So, there are a lot of "ifs" and "whens" in this question - I don't think we need to speculate on that in the article. Btw, during the entire 2020, only four Cardinals will turn 80 years; and if there aren't other changes, at the end of 2020 there will be 120 electors (Pell included). Varro (talk) 14:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  cardinal electors  

message: May I propose that we separate the tables for each of the ranks and to put images of Cardinals KILLERXR (talk) 00:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Dividing the table this way would make it impossible to sort the entire College by age or country, etc. It’s a terrible idea. Images are inessential and would make an already large table unwieldy. I’d suggest going in the opposite direction and removing the little flags of the nations. They are largely decorative. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 09:07, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation of the table for each of the ranks and adding images 

message: With the 2 cardinal deaths (Vela Chiriboga on the 15th and Gulbinowicz on the 16th), the stats probably need to be updated in the article. Dcheney (talk) 11:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two Cardinal Deaths 

message: As before, I've updated this page in my userspace with how this article should appear after the November 2020 consistory (treating Grech, Semeraro, Gambetti, Tomasi, Cantalamessa and Feroci as cardinal deacons, and the remainder as cardinal priests). Feel free to copy over the source of that page to this article following the consistory; I believe that the data should be accurate, but please let me know if they aren't. Thanks. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 11:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistory 2020 

message: Gambetti was replaced as Custos on 12 November. "Last night, in the cloister of Sixtus IV of the Basilica of San Francesco in Assisi, Father Marco Moroni officially began his mandate as the new custodian of the Sacred Convent. The oath with the entire conventual Franciscan community took place privately, due to Covid-19, and marked the beginning of his service to the Church and to the fraternity. Father Marco Moroni, from the religious province of Sant'Antonio di Padova, 55, succeeds Father Mauro Gambetti, who, on Saturday 28 November, will be created cardinal by Pope Francis." Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 12:00, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gambetti  

message: Do we have a source for the recent changes declaring that Cardinal Becciu is a "former" cardinal? Until the AP 2021 is released (very soon), I know of no source which would be suitable to justify the change.Dcheney (talk) 16:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Vatican website lists him among Cardinals 80 years and older (last updated few days ago). He is obviously still a Cardinal with no rights belonging to Cardinals. Varro (talk) 17:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That is my understanding as well, but I'll happily defer until the AP2021 is available (I should have it within a fortnight.) Dcheney (talk) 17:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The IP user who made the changes "cited" only last September's news in one of his edit summaries: "Becciu resigned from the right and privileges of Cardinal". No reason the think s/he had new info at all. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 19:39, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

text: And your source says: "Becciu remains technically a cardinal". Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 14:13, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I received the AP 2021 and can confirm that on page 38* he is still listed as a Cardinal. Dcheney (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cardinal Becciu 

message: https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2021/05/03/0267/00580.html Dcheney (talk) 13:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for today's cardinal deacon to cardinal priest elevations 

message: Shouldn't the statements made in the Notes be referenced? I was looking at the statement, repeated four times, that Francis co-opted a cardinal as cardinal bishops on 28 June 2018. The bios of those four cardinals say that Francis did this on 26 June and make no mention of 28 June. We could easily document the 28 June effective date with this source. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 16:15, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Your own source indicates (towards the end): "The present Rescriptum ... entering into force on 28 June 2018...". In addition, the current Annuario Pontificio 2021 p75* in the bio for Cardinal Parolin has the date of "28 giu. 2018" as the date. Clearly the 28th is the proper date to use. Dcheney (talk) 16:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the 28th is correct. I'm suggesting we add a ref to that source. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:18, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs for notes  

message: As far as I understood, a cardinal loses his right to vote only the next day after his 80th birthday, so if the Holy See would become vacant today, cardinal Bassetti would have the right to participate in the Conclave, and if so, he should be marked as ineligible only tomorrow.--IgorMagic (talk) 11:35, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. In Universi Dominici Gregis John Paul writes: "The right to elect the Roman Pontiff belongs exclusively to the Cardinals of Holy Roman Church, with the exception of those who have reached their eightieth birthday before the day of the Roman Pontiff's death or the day when the Apostolic See becomes vacant." This article states the rule properly in its second paragraph. Bassetti lost elector status when no vacancy had occurred by the end of 7 April. We need to respect this rule, starting with another 80th birthday next week. Rutsq (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: While I completely agree with the above, one has to consider what the "current date" is in a world-wide project like Wiki.  As I type this, it is about to turn 12noon in the Central US on Thu 7 Apr. But it is almost 3am in Australia on Fri 8 Apr.  Dcheney (talk) 17:00, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should use for this purpose CET/CEST, i.e. the time zone of Vatican City.--IgorMagic (talk) 19:13, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: And that is what editors have been using. Just a day earlier. Rutsq (talk) 21:20, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, that seems reasonable. Dcheney (talk) 23:57, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  80th birthday 

message: I see that the "Former Cardinals" section was recently removed with no discussion whatsoever. I understand it is much smaller than previously due to life events, but I think it is a good idea to retain it until there is just 1 member (namely the reigning Pope). Any thoughts? Dcheney (talk) 21:34, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it can be summarized in one sentence in the opening instead of being a separate section. Prospective popes have been cardinals for centuries so stating the current pope's name as a cardinal would be ok too I think. --Killuminator (talk) 14:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You still have the case of Theodore McCarrick, a cardinal from 2001 to 2018, but still living. Dcheney (talk) 18:49, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We have the exception McCarrick. Rutsq (talk) 22:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

text: The edit summary for the removal says it all: living ex-cardinals are not part of the scope of this article. However, I agree that a brief mention in the lede is warranted to detail that not every cardinal remains one until death. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds right to me. Having a subhead in a list article for "people who don't belong on this list" always seemed odd, no matter their number or the reason. A simple mention that since a cardinal is appointed for life, the only ex-cardinal is usually the pope... and a very rare case like McCarrick or (until recently) Ratzinger. Definitely not in list form. Rutsq (talk) 22:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former Cardinals section removal 

message: Yesterday I changed the name of Cardinal Ranjith from "Albert Malcolm Ranjith Patabendige Don" to "Malcolm Ranjith".  The later is much clearer about what his surname is.  The previous name caused confusion.  For years is has been alphabetizing under P (for Patabendige) instead of under R (for Ranjith); the alphabetization was not automatic, it was purposefully set to something wrong. Ravenpuff reverted my edit on the grounds of "overall consistency".  I'm re-doing the edit on the grounds of accuracy and clarity.  If people want to know all of the baptismal and possible surnames associated with a cardinal, they can see this in individual biographical articles.  This list is more useful when it uses the common name of a cardinal. Noel S McFerran (talk) 05:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm completely supportive of your choices, views and edits. It's simply too much information in one place.  Killuminator (talk) 10:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I too applaud your efforts. The Holy See's butchering of Ranjith's name is a great example that has long troubled me. Clearly the Holy See Press Office is not infallible. Rutsq (talk) 13:55, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cardinal Ranjith 

message: The Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem has responsibility for Cyprus, Jordan, Israel and Palestine. It is based in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City of Jerusalem in East Jerusalem, where the consensus of WP editors is "Under international law, East Jerusalem is considered a part of the West Bank and, therefore, of the Palestinian territories". I imagine one might argue that the Patriarchate is multi-national. But Jerusalem is a divided city and I see no rationale for identifying Pizzaballa with Israel. Thoughts? Rutsq (talk) 00:39, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Holy See has decided to handle the problem by listing Jerusalem as a country in its statistics for the geography of the College of Cardinals. HERE. Rutsq (talk) 04:01, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the jurisdiction, isn't "international" or "multi-national" an acceptable label? With a footnote about the several places covered by the patriarchate, of course. Rutsq (talk) 23:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we just go with "Jerusalem" then, to follow what the Vatican has done? -- Y not? 05:54, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll wait a bit for more comments. Here's a little more info in case someone wants to check. The Holy See doesn't do a good job of translating its original Italian, so its list of countries in English includes "Gerusalemme" HERE. Rutsq (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Pizzaballa

message: The article was quickly updated with the passing of Cardinal Majella Agnelo. Could someone take the opportunity to update the article "List of titular churches"? I think the page is locked. 2804:D84:2280:2400:DCC4:6360:6981:3091 (talk) 18:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cardinal Majella titular church 

message: I recently made a change to wording, using wording that wouldn't date. This was reverted with a detailed summary. I have no quarrel with the reversion; if the article is kept up to date with every creation, death, or 80th birthday no harm is done (some less-well-maintained articles still have text like "in the forthcoming 2018 elections ...) One fairly small quibble is that articles that are printed or copied containing text that goes out of date such as "has been in charge since 2018" become incorrect, while "took charge in 2018" doesn't, but I won't push that.
My comment here is intended to reduce the need for manual updates. Consecrations and deaths can't be predicted, and require manual revision if wording that dates is used. But birthdays are predictable.  There is a very useful template for this purpose, which displays different wording before and after a specified date: ; usage is "he   80 on 5 December 2023", and displays as "he will be 80 on 5 December 2023" until that date, then "he turned 80 on 5 December 2023".  Using this template in the introduction as it stands, which gives the dates of the next few cardinals to turn 80, will avoid the need to update on every birthday.
An even bigger reduction in the need for maintenance may be possible (I'm not sure if it can be done): in the list of cardinals, those over 80 must have their entry colour changed to red on their 80th birthday. If there is a way to use , or some other procedure, to add style"background:#fcc" on a specified date, then every cardinal's entry would use this procedure and would update automatically when appropriate.
This is just a suggestion to reduce the effort to keep the article up to date; I do not propose to do anything that might be considered objectionable.
Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 13:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Automatic updating - suggestion to reduce maintenance requirement