Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Archive 66

message: I know this has been discussed 1000 times before, but I want to know right now when the new requirements that a user has to have been here for 6+ months and have accured 2000 edits was put into effect?
It took me over 3 years to achieve 6000 edits, did that make me a bad admin? — Ilyanep (Talk) 16:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just before someone discovered how to enforce them. It's a full time job to keep up with the new rules. Edit: average failed nom has over 3,000 edits. Stephen B Streater 17:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Not everyone requires that. It is usually a good amount of time and enough edits to judge. Other than your lengthly signature, there should be no complains about you :) -- ReyBrujo 17:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *Looking at the average edit counts of failed noms is not a good way of measuring changes in standards. If you remove failed self noms from that equation, it comes out to an average edit count of 4,742 edits per failed RfA nominee since 1 January 2006. I think a better way of measuring this is where the failure rate stablizes, i.e. the point past which the number of edits does not seem to influence the outcome of an RfA. This point seems to be around 2,000 edits (see above chart). --Durin 17:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I too am disheartened at the standards being put into place at RfA. I see people with over 10,000 edits being opposed because they don't have enough talk page eidts. When I ran for adminship, I too was criticized for not having enough talk page edits. When I pointed out the the vast majority (60 - 70%) of the articles I worked on had talk pages with five of fewer comments on them, and that no less than one-third of the articles on my watchlist has no talk page at all, people suggested I put more active pages on my watchlist so that I can take place in debate! I worked as a German translator prior to my adminship. Most of the articles on my watchlist were articles I had written from scratch, and also were articles where I was the sole major contributor. People were literally telling me to put pages on my watchlist that I wasn't interested in so I could argue with people on those articles' talk pages! It was one of the most ridiculous things I have ever encountered in my time at Wikipedia. RyanGerbil10(The people rejoice!) 18:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Ryan's statements above. And now it appears we will have a failed RfA for a user with 13,000 edits, who has a featured article, who works on many WikiProjects, who uses vandal-wacking tools already, and who has no civility issues within the last eight months... because of "not enough talk page edits". There is such a thing as standards, and then there's such a thing as going overboard with requirements. :( --Firsfron of Ronchester 18:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Who are you referring to as the failed candidate? JoshuaZ 18:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agentsoo's, whose current RfA hovers at 69%. Although the RfA still has several days left, the first 48 hours are usually pretty indicative of how an RfA will turn out.--Firsfron of Ronchester 18:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I was aware of how that RfA was going but was confused because it hadn't been closed yet. I agree that the way it is going is a bit odd (although one of the opposes is Masssiveego and that hardly counts). JoshuaZ 18:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  I can only vote my opinion.  I fully encourage Wikipedians to excerise their option to vote.  Any vote I place will absolutely count, and any new voters should know their votes will also equally count.  --Masssiveego 05:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In response to the above (and its accompannying editing summary of "response to belittling personal attack") I believe you have misinterpted what I said.  My point was that since you generally vote oppose, your vote could plausibly be removed if one was trying to treat the first few days of an RfA as a sample of how things will proceed. This particularly makes sense when (as the case was when I had written the above comment) only a small number of people had voted in the RfA. JoshuaZ 05:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Agentsoo's is the second-most-recent RfA to be added, and with only 17 voters so far, it's a little premature to be casting doom and gloom on it (also, he's now up to 76% as of this writing ;) -- nae'blis 20:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Jumping in, perhaps it would be a good idea to come up with something like what's used for featured articles whereby we have a set of community standards (like Wikipedia:What is a featured article?) and that any objection should seek to relate to one of those standards. That might help eliminate some of the oppose votes that don't really relate to Wikipedia:What is good administrator?, like some of the things mentioned above. It also wouldn't mean automatic promotions once someone reaches a certain edit count, contribution time, etc. Just a thought. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 18:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *Interesting thought, and I like it! Problem though is that what makes a good administrator is very subjective. If we can get around that... --Durin 19:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *No more subjective than what makes a good FA. FAC is not much less contentious than RFA though, and there are plenty of bad faith/useless objections at FAC from people that don't understand the FAC criteria. But who knows, maybe having a community criteria would be a good thing. It may help make bad faith votes harder to make and or easier to see/ignore. In FAC Raul654 can just ignore the bad faith opposes or those that make it clear they don't know the criteria. It's worth a shot. - Taxman Talk 20:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *I don't doubt that there are votes that are absurd. I know there are. I do doubt that such votes are predominant or indicative in any respect of the general nature of RfA. --Durin 19:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think they are though. The general nature of RfA is that people can oppose for whatever reason they want to even if it doesn't help the project. There are large numbers of uninformed votes that make no attempt to truly identify if the candidate would make a good admin. - Taxman Talk 20:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Sure. But, I don't think we can conclude a particular case of vote as being indicative. The core problem here is that we passed a scalability threshold of the system a LONG time ago. People don't "know" each other on RfA anymore for the most part. The project is huge now, and virtually ever candidate that comes up is going to be one that we don't know from first hand experience. To review each candidate in detail, to come up with an informed vote....that's very hard. I conduct reviews of candidates against a set of standards I have for people whom I intend to nominate. It takes hours to complete the review. It's only after such an extensive review that I feel comfortable nominating someone. To be honest, I don't feel 100% confident in people that I haven't nominated, but voted support because I can't see spending hours doing a thorough review to come up with an informed vote. It's very hard. Very few people (if any?) are conducting thorough reviews of people prior to voting. Nominating, there's a few of us that do in-depth reviews. But voting? Probably less than 1%. --Durin 20:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Hours long completely thorough review is not needed every time, but a complete lack of an effort to review a candidate at all beyond, "no portal talk edits" is a problem, and it seems to be a systematic one. I don't think it has anything to do with the RfA process other than the fact that we prominently paste in edit count summaries that are completely irrelevant to determining if an editor would make a good admin. - Taxman Talk 20:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *(Excuse me for barging in) I completely agree and I'm glad people like Taxman feel this way too. I have been rudely shocked by some of the most useless and irrelevant objections. "Too few edits given the time he/she has spent here"; "not enough talk page edits"; "speaks too few languages"; "hasn't made any edits in the last 5 minutes" - too name a few. And what's worse, some of these are from admins. Can we please de-admin such people? :-) - Cribananda 20:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Over at Wiktionary (disclaimer: which has a small community where everyone knows each other), it is more or less up to the Bureaucrats to recognize absurd "no portal talk page edits" oppose votes, and to ignore them. I understand that it may not be that obvious here on Pedia, so adopting community-wide standards may be a better idea. But then, doesn't it become very obvious when someone will fail or will succeed? Are there any votes still needed then? I have never voted on RFAs for people that I'd never heard about, but that's an equally bad stance if everyone were to adopt that. — Wildrick 21:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I believe any vote from Wikipedian that qualifies to vote is counted regardless of the reason.  --Masssiveego 06:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The one that shocked me, on my RfA, was the person who opposed due to not having 7/24th in WP space. Although the opinion was stuck out, that level of scrutiny makes no sense to me. Portal and help space edit requirements also make no sense whatsoever.--Firsfron of Ronchester 21:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: My Rfa was going down before Taxman came in and called my detractors "unreasonable". RyanGerbil10(The people rejoice!) 23:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: And for that matter, I consider this to be pretty frivolous. RyanGerbil10(The people rejoice!) 00:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agentsoo now stands at  (31/5/2). See discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Agentsoo2  :) Dlohcierekim 02:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requirements for RfA 

message: Is there any reason we couldn't wrap the edit count tables in Hide/Show boxes, such as demonstrated at: User:Kylu.  I feel like the edit counts add clutter and forcing everyone to look at them as they scroll past is not really the attitude we want to promote.  Dragons flight 00:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with that is that show/hide labels only work with the Monobook skin, with the other skins you don't see the [show] box and therefore cannot see the contents. —Mets501 (talk) 02:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's still better than nothing. Especially considering most people use Monobook.--W.marsh 02:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That sounds like a good idea to me. To ensure graceful fallback, we'd need to set the default CSS state of the div to display:none display:block, so it'll incur a brief change in the perceived length of the page at every page load for Javascript browsers, but that seems like a small loss for something that could streamline the page. (Perhaps this fallback hack will fix the problem for non-monobook users?) - Tangotango 02:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I made a typo there. The template has to be set to display by default for browser compatibility. But this has nothing to do with Tyrenius' comment (different matter). - Tangotango 10:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "forcing everyone to look at them" is exactly what we want. The record of an editor's contributions in this way is one of the fundamentals of judging their suitability (note "one" of). Tyrenius 08:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However, you should look at the contributions, not at edit count stats. Hiding the stats and reminding people to look at the actual edits is a good idea. Kusma (討論) 08:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reports are interesting, though the length of them does possibly give undue weight to the quantity of edits. We could have a summary at the top (eg total; article/talk; WP/talk; edit summaries major/minor) on four lines with the full amount underneath. Stephen B Streater 08:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit count tables - hide/show 

message: Hi!  I've been following the discussions on this talk page for some time.  As a frequent participator in RfA's, I enjoy seeing others opinions on the RfA process.  As such, I'd like weigh in.  In terms of the RfA process, I don't really think it's broken at all;
*The RfA process is dictated by the community, and as such, if the community thought/thinks there is/was a better format, it would be discussed and consensus would be reached.
*Candidates only become administrators once the community reaches a consensus that both the candidate and Wikipedia would do well to give the user administrator status.
I mention these two points to show that all of RfA is community-based, and I have faith that the community is making the right decisions.
Furthermore, in terms of how people "vote" and the reasons given, I believe that each and every participant should be treated with respect and be appreciated for volunteering their valuable time to participate in the process.  I don't feel that standards should be called into question or chastised if they are reasonably explained.  If a Wikipedian has RfA standards that include a minimum number of edits or length volunteered to the project, it should be respected.  Also, specific standards such as those that include featured articles, AfD participation, vandal fighting, user/article talk participation, etc. should also be given due respect.  While we might not agree with certain standards, we should recognize one's right to participate in the RfA process as one sees fit. 
If a user participates in an RfA with anything but the best of faith, our community-elected 'crats will see the input for what it is and discount it when making the decision as to whether or not consensus has been reached.
Furthermore, as very few administrators have been desysopped, it's reasonable to say that almost all administrators have helped Wikipedia become a better place, and the right people are having successful RfA's.
Also, as adminship is really not that big a deal (and a double-edged sword, at that), I hate to see users become disappointed in themselves and/or the community and leave the project or become jaded on the process because of their or another's RfA.  As such, perhaps the WikiProject (which I, personally, am still on the fence about as to it's appropriateness) could actively seek out recent unsuccessful candidates and help them address some of the advice left to them.
Anyways, I just wanted to throw in my two cents.  I think the discussions here are productive and enjoyable to watch unfold, and I wanted to comment on what I've seen so far. Cheers hoopydinkConas tá tú? 18:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hear, hear!  It's like you read my mind :-)  After reading the discussions on the rest of this page, I thought I was alone.  Nice to know someone shares the same views as me! —Mets501 (talk)  23:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's funny, I missed this little statement, but I've been saying the same things on this very talk page... Hear, hear, indeed! Themindset 23:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: To a point I agree with you that the current system isn't terrible, but one thing that I think is really a shame is people failing because of their inadequacy in something they don't intend to deal with, like a vandal-fighter who could really use the tools failing because of lack of experience in other areas.  I've written up my (ever-revolutionary) thoughts on this at Wikipedia:WikiProject on Adminship/a la carte. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 01:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Per my 10:40, 9 August 2006 edit of this page, we need an RfA cabal of like-minded editors ;). NoSeptember 19:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I smell irony... We have been talking about changing RfA for what seems like forever, and yet RfA has remained largely the same for years. If you're looking for a process that's inefficient and broken, this is it – not the RfA process, but the process to change RfA. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 19:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kim Bruning, I would suggest going to the Village Pump or forming an official policy proposal to set the wheels in motion.  If the community decides that RfA needs to be changed and your proposal is the way to go, then it will be so.  I'm certainly open to changes, so if you do decide do follow through, I'll be very eager to see the developments.  Cheers and good luck! hoopydinkConas tá tú? 00:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: RFA has remained largely the same for "years"?  Hmm.  Let's try two and a half years ago.  Timwi's self-nom read, Hi. I've been around since June, and I've been a well-behaved user all the way through. :) I don't make ground-breaking new contributions very often, but I make a lot of minor corrections and I revert vandalism. I would like to be able to help with this better, and thus, I am requesting adminship. Thank you for your attention.and he passed unanimously.  Fuzheado's vote on Pakaran's nomination readDefer. Pakaran is a good contributor, but he's been here for just two months with 270 edits of article pages. Perhaps a *bit* more time only because we should be consistent. WP has rejected other folks for too little experience.and Pakaran seemingly passed.  In fact, there were three opposes in the entire timespan, for 38 admin candidates, as opposed to 317 supports, meaning the support ratio was 99.1%.  Some of the nominees got in with fewer than 400 edits.  Wik, opposing Pakaran, wryly noted: "Actually I'm helping you, as my opposition will move ten other people to support you!"RFA hasn't changed for years? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no AWB or scripts back then. 400 edits meant something, especially when you had to press the warm up button to notify the servers that you were about to submit an edit. NoSeptember 08:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I wasn't referring to the standards; those obviously have changed. I was referring to this process / format. This nomination from July 2004 looks quite similar to a July 2006 nomination. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 12:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from the peanut gallery 

message: Essjay has no category talk and no portal or portal talk editsHe needs to be immediately recalled! ! And yet he is not only a sysop but a crat with checkuser as well. What was anyone thinking?  JoshuaZ 20:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know. And not enough user edits either. This is a disgrace. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 20:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Funny how you point this out at a time when Essjay hasn't edited for 2 days ;). NoSeptember 20:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And did anyone see his SIGNATURE?!?! The horror, the agony! -- Avi 20:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *And he only had less than 500 main namespace article edits at the time of his RfA! What insanity! Clearly RfA is broken if it let him through! Time to raise the standards. --Durin 21:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This joke appears so many times in so many variations. Just to add fuel to the fire: Jimbo Wales probably wouldn't qualify for most people's RFA standards right now. Themindset 21:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Including yours. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 21:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup. And I believe it's perfectly reasonable. Themindset 21:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So you support the fact that you are blatantly hypocritical (no personal attack meant) in your standards towards adminship? Thygard - Talk - Contribs - Email ---- 00:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not hypocrisy when you consider if that Jimbo was a normal editor, he'd probably have a lot more edits than he currently does, since he wouldn't have to worry about PR and fund-raising. Johnleemk | Talk 17:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: But have you ever seen the go it alone, self-important attitude that Jimbo has.  Half the time it's like he has no respect for normal policy or process at all, and just does whatever he wants.  Why would anyone think it was a good idea to give him admin powers?  Dragons flight 22:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *I've chastized Jimbo once in the past. He makes mistakes like all of us in fact, it got me on the cabal's black list...Go me! :). At the core should be the question, does Jimbo have the best interests of the project at heart and will he not abuse the tools? Of course he does and of course he won't. --Durin 22:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know whether you're being sarcastic or not... but Jimbo-bashing is at best an unhealthy pastime on Wikipedia. From the one incident where I've had to deal with him I found him heavy handed, but also acting in good faith. If I had issue with his status/behaviour I would simply leave the project. Themindset 22:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *I'm serious. I took issue with him and told him as much. Told him his behavior was akin to the CEO of a large company coming down to the loading docks and telling the guys in shipping how to do their jobs. --Durin 22:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I'm not sure where this is going, I would say that your example is not particularly convincing. If I was a CEO and saw the guys on the loading docks screwing around I would probably do something about it. Themindset 23:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, everyone makes mistakes but I think every mistake Jimbo has made has been in a good faith effort, that being said he has to be careful, even more careful possibly, about throwing around his power because if done too often it'll either a) lose all meaning, or b) entirely skew the structure of Wikipedia to the point where he ends up being an active dictator of everything rather than a passive dictator who lets the community makes decisions semi-independently. Thygard - Talk - Contribs - Email ---- 00:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A horrible realization! 

message: How has having an alternate user account historically affected RfA's? The User:Jtkiefer - Pegasus affair is certainly an interesting episode. The reason I ask is I have an alternate user, User:Mikereichold.  I established this account because my other one is in my real name. I felt vulnerable after dealing with vandals that lived in a  nearby city. My name is unique enough that I would not be hard to find if a kook wanted to look.
I acknowledge the alternate users on each page and give the identity of this alternate user on the other one. I make the recommended affirmations of innocence and benignity on each. I mention it now out of curiosity and to have some discourse now before I even consider submitting an RfA. I would appreciate reading what others think on the subject. Cheers,  :) Dlohcierekim 14:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The rules are laid out in WP:SOCK as long as you follow them and don't try to vote stack, then there are no issues. What Jtkiefer - Pegasus affair are you referring to? - Taxman Talk 14:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Taxman, take a look at Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Jtkiefer_3, which might warrant an early closure. I don't see there's much chance of this request reaching consensus unless some extraordinary evidence is forthcoming soon. Gwernol 15:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This affair is frightening. The notion that we made this person an admin previously is disturbing. I personally supported the Pegasus incarnation in some of his previous RfAs, and gave him off-Wiki advice about how to be diplomatic in RfAs. This almost makes me think that RfA standards are not strict enough. JoshuaZ 16:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is just too strange. Is there any confirmation that the two accounts are really the same person? (Liberatore, 2006). 16:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Kelly Martin's recent comments in the RfA. JoshuaZ 16:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The current situation is a rather extraordinary one.  It's probably not a helpful example to use.  Jkelly 16:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At this moment I don't think a checkuser function will help out much. I've personally seen the process in action and it is a *huge* drain on the wikipedia servers. Plans are on to improve it's functioning. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it would be easier to just add a new question to RFAs: "Please list all accounts and IP numbers under which you have edited."  If someone knowingly withheld information that would be relevant to the adminship request, it would be grounds for desyssopping, which could be handled through arbitration. --Tony Sidaway 19:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. But we could have someone who has engaged in silliness and vandalism. Thought better of it - created a new accounnt and edited harmoniously for 8 months. Do we realy need them to declare that they were a 'penis vandal' for two days, three years ago? Perhaps better just asking 'have you even submitted an RfA under a different nick?'. --Doc 19:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not like we could even run a checkuser that far. At most, we get information about the last four weeks of edits. It seems unnecesary, at least to me: we can't legislate every single thing that could happen, and this case falls under this. So, I can't use EvilCat to test a new monobook.css layout? Titoxd(?!?) 08:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Per WP:SOCK#Legitimate uses of multiple accounts (mostly the security aspects), I feel it is too extreme to force an adminship candidate to publicly identify alternative accounts.  And demanding IP numbers should be way out of bounds from the view of personal privacy.  Dragons flight 19:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Can't see this as that practical, it would just mean being careful to avoid the checkuser showing anything up. Checkuser isn't and never will be the be all and end all of sockpuppet detection. --pgk(talk) 20:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate users 

message: Do we ever take notice of the fact that the nom is obviously a kid, or do we just keep going like he was an adult? :) Dlohcierekim 03:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we should discriminate against candidates or nominees based on age (or any other inherent characteristic). Hold all candidates to the same standards regardless of age. We have some great editors under the age of 16 and I see no reason why one of them couldn't become an admin if they met the usual standards expected of candidates. Best, Gwernol 03:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a 14-year-old bureaucrat, for what it's worth :-) Kirill Lokshin 03:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed! That is amazing. I just feel sorry for the poor kid out there with his string of teenager mistakes and with 18 opposes. So much for my opinion that we should block all school accounts on sight. :) Dlohcierekim 03:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Kirill, do we? I thought he had grown up. (Not that it matters anyway, age discrimination in RfA is senseless. There's "mature" contributors who I would like to be as far away as possible from the mop.) Titoxd(?!?) 08:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, his userpage still says 14; I have no idea if that's still the case, or if he's merely neglected to update it. Kirill Lokshin 14:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Evaluate candidates on maturity, not age. (Disclaimer: I am a 16-year-old admin.) Johnleemk | Talk 07:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we knew everyone's age, then we might want to discourage those under 14 from standing. But we don't - and even where it is declared, we can't verify it. So judge maturity by actions. (Disclaimer: I sometimes act like a pre-teen) --Doc 10:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yah, I know plenty of adults who are less mature than most children.  --Kbdank71 11:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As my name was mentioned, I thought I might give my opinion: I think that, being part of the net, Wikipedia has no means to know my age if I don't tell it voluntarily. You have to think what you would have not knowing of the age (and probably you would have considered maturity). Also, it's wiki experience that counts most; when editing here you have to deal with conflicts. But then, I guess I'm a bit biased :) fetofs Hello! 00:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, age has no part in adminship (I'm 15). —Mets501 (talk) 14:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree with this. Age has no part in who should be an admin. However, maturity does: if you have a 13 or a 30 year old who acts like a "typical" 10 year old, neither should get the tools. One thing I am concerned about though is that it is probably more likely that a young candidate take a failed RFA badly.--Nilfanion (talk) 14:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I too agree with this. Age is actually not a concern. The level of maturity is. --Siva1979Talk to me 18:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I strongly disagree with AKMask on this. Deckiller raises the obvious practical question: how do we know how old someone is? That aside this kind of age discrimination is illegal in some countries where Wikipedia operates, and IMHO its immmoral everywhere. The question we should be asking is about maturity, not age, as maturity directly impacts their ability to be a good admin. Since even AKMask admits that age!=maturity then adding an age barrier does nothing the improve the RfA decision process but it is instruction creep. We already judge people on their maturity and find some older folks lacking and some younger folks to be wise. I may be old and creaky myself but I still remember being young. Gwernol 22:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Age should not be a factor. If for no other reason, we don't know most users' ages. That would then make it unfair on those who have chosen to be honest and tell their age, and are then punished for it. If someone isn't acting like a little kid (in the bad way), then don't oppose them for it. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 22:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict with Newyorkbrad)Discriminating against someone based on their age makes as much sense as discriminating against someone based on their being from developing country. Many young people are not as mature as adults. Many people from non-first world countries are either computer illiterate and/or unable to communicate effectively in English. Therefore young people and people from non-first world countries are less likely to make good admins. This should be taken into account when judging RfAs from people under the age of 21 (the age of majority in many countries) or RfAs involving people from less well off countries. It's just more reassuring to know that someone has grown up in an English speaking country and surrounded by technology. It seems to temper them for the online environment and add a bit of English communication proficiency from what I see. We don't live for the exceptions. We should pass over people from countries outside of the developed world. Right, or did I miss your point? Basing an argument on stereotypes and generalizations is not a mature rhetorical approach.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 23:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I think. Your sarcasm confused me for a moment. (You are being sarcastic right?) There is no reason to think that a 40-year-old new to Wikipedia should be more knowledgeable about the project than a 15-year-old who has been around for a year. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 23:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it was meant to be a weak reductio ad absurdum, commonly seen as sarcastic agreement. I'm sure that there are some people on the project that feel that admins should only come from English speaking countries in the Western world. If someone commenting here feels that way then my argument could be rejected, however I have a strong feeling that the vast majority of commenters will agree that it is an absurd conclusion. Breakdown of logical argument follows. Let A stand for young people, B stand for immature people, C stand for good admin candidates, D stand for people from places outside the developed/English speaking world and E stand for computer illiterate people/people with poor English communication skils. AKMask said Most A are B. B are not C. Therefore A are not C. I responded Most A are B. Most D are E. B and E are not C. Therefore all A and D are not C, but all D != C is an absurd conclusion. —WAvegetarian•(talk) 07:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text: WOW! I just felt bad for a certain RfA candidate who was getting shredded without regard for his age (12-14). I just found his mistakes more understandable as age/maturity related. Then I find out we have a teenage 'crat. I don't care how old an editor is. All that matters is ability. I don't think we should take age into considerationregardling qualifications. Should we temper our "constructive criticism in any way?  Cheers :) Dlohcierekim 00:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't edited this page since the HRE fracas, but I think I need to say a few things. As someone who was made admin at 15 (I became admin a few days before my 16th birthday last year), age plays little to no part in it, it's maturity. HOWEVER, regardless of one's age, I think there's one underlying point that must be made here: If you accept and choose to go through with the nomination, you have to expect and accept what comes at you. This certain candidate is being opposed on mostly fair grounds, with, as far as I can see, only one struck out age-related issue. He's being opposed on how he would use the tools, and his actions in the past regarding policy, not his age. Chacor 01:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Based on the discussion above, Kitia, I don't think anyone is saying that being 13 (or any age) means you can't be an administrator if you are qualified.  To the contrary, I think the consensus above is to judge the candidates strictly on the basis of qualifications and that age is either not a factor at all or at most a peripheral one.  In fact, I think that younger people have a greater chance of being treated as individuals and on the same plane with older people on Wikipedia and similar projects than virtually anywhere else -- which is exactly how it should be, and exactly how I would have wanted it if there had been a 'net and a Wikipedia when I was 13. Newyorkbrad 18:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Young administrator candidates 

message: I would like to propose changing the RfA template to include a question with regard to :Category:Administrators open to recall, to be answered mandatorily. Now that we have a precedent of an administrator being recalled, I want to see the recall process get more defined, and the perfect way to get all admin candidates to consider recall and to go on record with their opinion on how they would handle theirs is to add a question, as follows:
:Q4: If promoted, do you plan to take the optional step of joining :Category:Administrators open to recall and why? If yes, what course of action will you take if recalled?
Doing so will raise the profile of the recall process and will put a lot of peer pressure on candidates to volunteer - which I think is a net good thing (proceeding from the premise that recall is fundamentally a good thing, which could be debatable). I have added this question (on an optional basis) to a couple of still-pending RfA's, and my understanding is that Lar has asked a similar question of candidates in the past. Prior discussion is at Category talk:Administrators open to recall - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I Support this idea 110% (could turn nominees into politicians however - how do we make them keep their word??? ;) Great idea - Glen 14:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I object to the entire category on principle.  It should be all admins or no admins.  Trying to pressure some admins (or admin candidates) into joining creates an ugly double standard.  It is on the same spectrum as saying: "If you have nothing to hide, then surely its okay if the police know every detail of your life", i.e. "If you are going to be a good admin, then surely you won't mind being held to a higher standard than other admins".  And if an admin candidate refuses to join, do we really want to believe that this person is more nefarious than all the other admins who haven't joined?  If something is a "good idea" then refusing to participate will look bad even though being forced to participate would create an unfair double standard.  I'm on record in multiple places as supporting some form of admin recall for all admins, but I absolutely think it is unfair to create de facto policy applying only to new admins by pressuring them into it.  Dragons flight 15:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: What DF said. The idea of admin recall is good and sound as a check on the system, but so far none of the proposed systems have gained both consensus and widespread use. The self-nominated category has some flaws (not least of which is small usage), and applying this only to new admins actually intensifies the problem, not solves it (IMO). Anyone can ask voluntary questions of candidates, though... -- nae'blis 15:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I feel the question would back people into a corner. The vast majority of admins have not joined the category, but that does not mean they don't feel they should be held accountable for their actions. However, some !voters would take objecting to joining the category as an indication that they don't feel it's necessary to be held accountable for their actions. I think some people, including myself, feel the structure of the open to recall category is a bit too rigid and would result in the admin in question being forced to step down despite relatively minor infractions. Admins will run into trouble, garner a few enemies. It happens, but that's part of the job. I'm sure I could easily find six people who believe Cyde, for instance, is a bad admin, but that doesn't mean he really is; he's just willing to put his neck on the line in controversial situations. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 15:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Forcing this into the standard questions now amounts to blackmail to join a category that has significant opposition to it's use. Get consensus on admin recall for all admins, then and only then can it go in the standard questions. - Taxman Talk 15:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But we now have the issue of people asking it at all. People are currently welcome to ask this question on every single RfA which would essentially have almost the same effect as being a standard question. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 15:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding it to the template makes it a standard part of the process and indicates consensus for it being a criterion for evaluating an administrator, which all candidates must answer; instead as an optional question, it is one editor asking it to help him and some others make their own decisions. —Centrx→talk • 16:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Taxman, would you then consider me guilty of blackmail if I asked that question on a voluntary basis? Would you like me to withdraw the yet unanswered question I posed to Wangi a few minutes ago? Nevermind . Good answer. - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A number of the issues people seem to have with this question is the idea that saying no could be then taken as a reason perhaps to oppose. However consider Alphachimp's response: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Alphachimp. I think such an elegant reply on why they would not join does their RFA no harm at all (in fact it does the opposite). Saying that I don't feel it should added in to the template, it's fine as an optional question. Thanks/wangi 15:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: This is a terrible idea and I object to asking the question at all. It will just make people think they have to join that category or say they will for them to get the vote of the person asking. The category is not anywhere near accepted by anywhere near a consensus or majority of admins, and questioning people at all about such a controversial thing does nothing but make them think they have to go along with it. Wangi's answer cited above is a perfect example of this. People are so afraid of things on RFA anyway, that few will say "no I won't join" because of the implication that if you don't join you are a bad admin. This is nothing but a way for the supporters of admin recall to advertise their category. pschemp | talk 15:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that statement--this is indeed terrible. While I have no issue with someone voluntarily joining this category, to raise this as a questions implies that if someone says no others will try to blackball their nomination. --Alabamaboy 16:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with all of the above - this idea is awful. Raul654 16:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  (edit conflict) I totally agree with Pschemp - asking this to candidates is and would be a very bad idea. Supporting or submitting to a highly muddy and controversial proposal (which is probably new or of little interest to many or most Admin Candidates anyway) should not be added to the list of mulitcoloured hoops that candidates here have to jump though (which it will become, as many have stated above). Plus, during/just before an RfA is not the environment in which to decide on it. Each individual Wikipedian should decide where they stand on it when they hear about it naturally and have no pressure on them either way. Thanks! —Celestianpower háblame 16:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I also agree with Pschemp -- it's fine as an optional question, but making it mandatory should only come after there is consensus that the category is beneficial, at the least.  Even then, since the point of the category is to implement a voluntary recall standard (as opposed to making the recall process a regular part of the admin policy) it would be arguable that making the question mandatory gives it a higher profile in the RfA process than appropriate.  Mike Christie 16:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well you missed half my point then. I'm opposed to asking it at all, even voluntarily, because I think that is just the supporters of the category advertising it. pschemp | talk 16:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right; I didn't make it clear which part of your comment I was agreeing with -- my mistake.  Personally I wouldn't ask the question and don't feel it is necessary, though I did find AlphaChimp's "no" to be useful and informative.  However, I don't oppose it as an optional question because I have a hard time placing limits on the optional questions.  Optional questions are clearly from individuals and I don't see a reason to oppose any questions other than obvious time-wasting.  Mike Christie 16:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow. Somone asks a question here and as a reaction you put this cat on CfD. Not really nice. (Warning: this was a divisive statement. Let's call the wiki thought police). I would propose that all admins here step down from adminship because adminship is divisive. A statement from a humble non-admin --Ligulem 17:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Not to mentions I doubt you'd be asking anyone about this if you hadn't just been recalled CryzRussian. Asking that question, even voluntarily is advertising for your cause, and as such does not belong in an RFA. pschemp | talk 16:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Recall is not my cause. I would like to either see it made near-universal or deleted altogether. A rejection of this proposal is something I am 100% ok with, but I definitely want recall discussed. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "I want to see the recall process get more defined, and the perfect way to get all admin candidates to consider recall and to go on record with their opinion on how they would handle theirs is to add a question" sure sounds like it is your cause. pschemp | talk 16:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (proceeding from the premise that recall is fundamentally a good thing, which could be debatable) on which the jury is apparently still out, as I have now heard. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lookit, I haven't done anything wrong. I asked three optional question, something I was not the first to do, and I started a discussion in a couple of places, to which I've gotten some strong answers, which is a very good thing. That's all. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Calm down. My point is that RFA questions are there to determine the suitability of the candidate, not to promote or make visible a category. Since that was your stated goal, that question is not appropriate. I'm not accusing you of doing wrong, just pointing out why you shouldn't continue. pschemp | talk 16:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 100% calm. It was a mixed motivation. I will certainly not continue as recall seems doomed. - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, this question should not be asked in any way. CrzyRussian's quote above points out that the reason for asking is to make it more visible. That is an unacceptable use of RFA questions. RFA questions are there to determine a candidates suitablitiy not to make a category more visible. If you don't care about their answer to the question, it shouldn't be being asked, not even voluntarily. pschemp | talk 16:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Other issues aside, the question seems perfectly reasonable as something to help determine a candidate's suitability for adminship.  It's certainly more relevant than some of the other questions that people will ask. Kirill Lokshin 17:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly how is it relevant? pschemp | talk 17:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because a potential administrator's views on the possibility of recall (if not necessarily on the particular method being discussed) are usually indicative of their view on the role of admins within the community in general—which is a rather important point to a number of people. (Provided the answer to the question is honest, of course; but that's true of all the questions being asked.) Whether you choose to use this information in determining your opinion is entirely up to you; but surely you can see that some (many?) of those commenting might find it useful? Kirill Lokshin 17:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well then ask about their views of the recall proposal, not if they want to join a category. As it is worded right now, it isn't relevant. pschemp | talk 17:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I can't speak for Crzrussian's reasons for asking but they are not mine. As I say below, I asked (a rather long winded multipart question about both recall and ROUGE) to gauge the answers. To say I don't care what the answers are is not really a very accurate thing to say beacuse I do care very much, but more about the process and the thinking than the actual answer. That's because I don't think that being in or not in it makes you better or worse as an admin. ++Lar: t/c 03:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The question isn't about WP:RECALL, its about joining the current category. Two different things. To make it relevant, ask about WP:RECALL instead. pschemp | talk 17:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think both approaches are misguided. If you want to know how the candidate feels about administrator recall, ask them how they feel about administrator recall. Don't ask them to hit a moving target (WP:RECALL is far from solidified, despite the straw poll) or blackmail them into support the current voluntary categorization. Maybe it could be useful to mention both in the question, but that just overcomplicates things in my view. -- nae'blis 20:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I meant aske them how they feel about recall in general as I said up above. I put Wp;Recall in there because that seems to be Rootology's currrent fascination, but what you said is correct. Ask about the general idea, not the category or the proposal. pschemp | talk 01:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Cool! - CrazyRussian talk/email 02:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Excellent suggestion. I wonder if it would be worth posting this entire discussion over to the talk page of the category, to avoid having to hash this out again in three or four months. -- nae'blis 02:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, assuming the category survives deletion, that is. ++Lar: t/c 03:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It will.  There is no way either side will get a consensus.  --Kbdank71 15:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: good suggestion. thanks Kim. pschemp | talk 02:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not opposed to the suggestion of asking about the category after the successful RfA but I gotta say, I think there is value in asking all sorts of questions of prospective admins to see how they think on their feet. I'm standing behind the versions I asked as having generated a lot of good thinking from candidates (and remind you yet again that my comments of support or oppose were not completely congruent with the yes/no answers I got, rather they were congruent with the level of thoughtfulness I saw) ++Lar: t/c 03:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm inclined to agree with you. Michael 03:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: If a bad-faith recall happened, I'm sure the targetted admin would romp back in.  Regards, Ben Aveling 07:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose my underlying concern comes from my experience with teaching evaluations.  Student evaluations can influence hiring, tenure and promotion for faculty and teaching assistants.  Getting good evaluations pays off, getting bad evaluations can hurt you.  I believe that this is a major driver of grade inflation, which lowers the overall quality of tertiary education.  There are enough forces which limit your fearlessness as an admin.  While there are a few people who are too fearless, starting people off like that seems to be a good way to produce cowed admins.  Guettarda 15:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's a "bad faith recall"? I can't see that happening to me, frankly. (again I refer folk to User:Lar/Accountability for more info) If 6 trolls turned up to try to recall me, regardless of their edit/time numbers, I'd spurn the request and say "I don't consider myself recalled, if you disagree, take it to ArbCom". If somehow that got past me and we got into the discussion phase, I think the bad faithness would come out pretty quickly and I'd say "well that was a nice discussion, I don't consider myself recalled, if you disagree, take it to ArbCom". (in both cases I'd expect ArbCom to laugh and decline to review the case) If on the other hand it was ME acting in bad faith by spurning legitimate requests, or by not being collegial during the discussion or trying to wriggle out of admitting I erred on things or whatever, again I'd expect that it would go to ArbCom.. but in this case I'd expect to be sans the sysop bit pretty quickly. Reading that, you might say...  "ok how is that better than just going to ArbCom directly???" and the answer is, those are edge cases. The one case we've seen so far wasn't edge. The petitioners were acting in good faith, had legitimate grievances, and the petitionee and everyone else acted collegially. That he chose the most stringent option, one I would not choose, was his choice. My expectation is that most if not all cases would not be edge cases, because the ArbCom as backup would tend to reduce the tendency of trolls to even waste the time and tend to reduce the tendency of an admin who had previously agreed to be collegial and reasonable to be intemperate and unreasonable. I think this process so far has went swimmingly and the troll argument is a non issue. ++Lar: t/c 18:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a question on Recall 

message: May I suggest a simple way out. As it is very well understood, adding your self to the recall list is voluntary. As such, it should not be a question on a RfA, but post the question at the talk page of the new admin as soon as a nomination has been concluded successfully. In that way, they are aware of it, can add themselves, and it will not result in a false suggestion at the RfA if someone for whatever reason does not want to put themselves on the list. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 02:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool! - CrazyRussian talk/email 02:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Excellent suggestion. I wonder if it would be worth posting this entire discussion over to the talk page of the category, to avoid having to hash this out again in three or four months. -- nae'blis 02:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, assuming the category survives deletion, that is. ++Lar: t/c 03:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It will.  There is no way either side will get a consensus.  --Kbdank71 15:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: good suggestion. thanks Kim. pschemp | talk 02:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not opposed to the suggestion of asking about the category after the successful RfA but I gotta say, I think there is value in asking all sorts of questions of prospective admins to see how they think on their feet. I'm standing behind the versions I asked as having generated a lot of good thinking from candidates (and remind you yet again that my comments of support or oppose were not completely congruent with the yes/no answers I got, rather they were congruent with the level of thoughtfulness I saw) ++Lar: t/c 03:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm inclined to agree with you. Michael 03:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: If a bad-faith recall happened, I'm sure the targetted admin would romp back in.  Regards, Ben Aveling 07:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose my underlying concern comes from my experience with teaching evaluations.  Student evaluations can influence hiring, tenure and promotion for faculty and teaching assistants.  Getting good evaluations pays off, getting bad evaluations can hurt you.  I believe that this is a major driver of grade inflation, which lowers the overall quality of tertiary education.  There are enough forces which limit your fearlessness as an admin.  While there are a few people who are too fearless, starting people off like that seems to be a good way to produce cowed admins.  Guettarda 15:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's a "bad faith recall"? I can't see that happening to me, frankly. (again I refer folk to User:Lar/Accountability for more info) If 6 trolls turned up to try to recall me, regardless of their edit/time numbers, I'd spurn the request and say "I don't consider myself recalled, if you disagree, take it to ArbCom". If somehow that got past me and we got into the discussion phase, I think the bad faithness would come out pretty quickly and I'd say "well that was a nice discussion, I don't consider myself recalled, if you disagree, take it to ArbCom". (in both cases I'd expect ArbCom to laugh and decline to review the case) If on the other hand it was ME acting in bad faith by spurning legitimate requests, or by not being collegial during the discussion or trying to wriggle out of admitting I erred on things or whatever, again I'd expect that it would go to ArbCom.. but in this case I'd expect to be sans the sysop bit pretty quickly. Reading that, you might say...  "ok how is that better than just going to ArbCom directly???" and the answer is, those are edge cases. The one case we've seen so far wasn't edge. The petitioners were acting in good faith, had legitimate grievances, and the petitionee and everyone else acted collegially. That he chose the most stringent option, one I would not choose, was his choice. My expectation is that most if not all cases would not be edge cases, because the ArbCom as backup would tend to reduce the tendency of trolls to even waste the time and tend to reduce the tendency of an admin who had previously agreed to be collegial and reasonable to be intemperate and unreasonable. I think this process so far has went swimmingly and the troll argument is a non issue. ++Lar: t/c 18:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Voluntary -> no question