Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography/Organized crime task force/project/archive

message: I've been thumbing through google looking for good, informative sites but there are very few out there. I was wondering if anyone has a good stie in particular or maybe a really good book I could pick up at the local library. PeteShanosky 01:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good question, given the large number of websites available on the topic (many of which contradict each other, either directly or indirectly). There are, however, a select few websites from some of the more well known experts on organized crime such as Rick Porello's AmericanMafia.com (not to be confused with the equally impressive American "Mafia" by Thomas P. Hunt) or CrimeMagazine.com. Other well known references include amateur writers such as GangRule.com and Kenny Torrio's Mafia-International. There are also several websites focusing on one specific area such as The Tampa Mob: A story of the Trafficante crime family and ClevelandMob.com. A recommended reference page would make a good addition to the page. I primarily use Jay Robert Nash's Encyclopedia of World Crime series and Carl Sifakis's Mafia Encyclopedia as well as other various sources. Most libraries, at least in the general area, should have at least one of those two authors. MadMax 01:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, finally some good reference sites. Like you mentioned, a lot of the other sites seemed to disagree with each other, dispite all claiming to be experts on the subject. PeteShanosky 03:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Unfortunatly a large part of organized crime's history is based on underworld legends and popular rumors of the day, much of which is disputed even among traditional sources such as Henry Asbury's "The Gangs of New York" (as does other books which offer contradictory information). Much of the information on various websites are taken from these sources resulting in contradicting sources and untimatly adds to the confusion. MadMax 21:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any good references? 

message: *May I mention that Jay Robert Nash isn't a reliable source because it contains fake entries, biaised information and false statements in order to sue other people copying from his material. Lincher 18:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *This does raise a valid point. Should Nash be removed as a reliable source, as he is used in many sources both online and otherwise ? Even I can admit to various errors within the Encyclopedia of World Crime series, although many of these may simply be typos and other printing errors given the later revised editions. Also, for the three sole members who may or may not be reading this, it would be greatly appreciated if using Nash as a secondary reference and, if possible, to list any recent organized contributions using Nash as a reference to either myself or Lincher. MadMax 19:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jay Robert Nash sources

message: *In attempt to try and jump start a discussion here, it's recently come to my attention that a similar project was started by User:Extofer in March 2006. I have spoken with him and he seems to be interested in at least a possible collaboration with this project in the future. The "Honorary Members" section not withstanding, as neither groups have a significant amount of members of the five needed to become an official project (with three members including myself and Extofer as the sole member of his), would anyone have any objections to asking Extofer if he would consider merging both groups ? I certainly don't see a conflict of interest on this end as a large focus of this project focuses on much of the American Mafia. MadMax 19:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *It sounds good to me. It would increase effectiveness of both projects and I can't see it creating any problems, unless for some reason we do not get along, which I seriously doubt will be the case. The two projects themselves are quite similar and I like the idea of a merge. PeteShanosky 23:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While it looks like there are no objections however, as the project page was recently deleted I'm unsure what the status of the project (or the project leader's interest) is at the moment. I'll try to contact him on his talk page to see what I can find out. MadMax 06:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Merge and/or future collaberation with [[WikiProject Mafia]] 

message: Hi. I'd to join your project in formation. I spent a summer interning at a law firm involved in organized crime work, and subsequently performed some academic work on the subject and have read very widely. This is a very interesting project and I think I can make a contribution.
Incidentally, the article on the National Crime Syndicate troubles me somewhat. I have attempted to improve it but it requires work and I wonder whether it should exist at all. There are no citations, but it appears to be based on old theories of organized crime, advanced by Hank Messick and a few others, that are unsubstantiated and based largely on conjecture. Messick's work on Lansky has been largely discredited as you know.
While it is certainly true that in the 1920s-1940s there were large non-Italian crime groups that worked together, the theory that there was a formal organization, along the lines of the Mafia Commission which of course was very much a reality, seems to be largely unproven.--Mantanmoreland 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are certainly more then welcome to join, and certainly much of Wikipedia's organized crime desperatly needs an overhall and reorganization (especially with sources from experts such as Henry Asbury and Jay Robert Nash being called into question). The National Crime Syndicate would indeed make an excellent candidate for a future collaberation, however I don't have much information beyond my own sources (primarily Asbury/nash). There should of course be a distinction between the Mafia Ruling Commission connected to New York's Five Families. MadMax 06:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and I think a lot of Hank Messick's work has also been called into question, particularly by the Lacey book. On the other hand, there's no question that top mob bosses outside the Mafia worked closely with non-Mafia bosses, and also met regulatrly such as at a big conclave in Atlantic City. Joe Valachi said that Salvatore Maranzano's killers were some gunmen from Meyer Lansky. But I'd like to see some better sourcing for the concept of a "National Crime Syndicate."--Mantanmoreland 12:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: *Unfortunatly I haven't had a chance to read them as yet. The closest I can get is whatever I'm able to get ahold of at the local library. Nice job on the Cornelius Willemse article, by the way ! I'll try to see if I can dig up any references to the National Crime Syndicate, although I have my doubts if the FBI was ever focused on anything else outside the New York Five Families. I'd love to get the opinions of modern day authors such as Allen May, Jerry Capeci, Thomas Hunt, etc. on the subject. MadMax 20:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I should do an article for each of the Willemse books. Yes, it would be interesting to get the view of the people you mention, but keep in mind that this is a historical issue. I doubt they would be authoritative if they hadn't gone into old files. One thing you can do is look at FBI files on various hoods available at the online reading room. They have Zwillman, for example, and others. Problem is getting 'em in WP, given WP:NOR, even if anything interesting is in 'em.--Mantanmoreland 21:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *That would be of an invaluble help. Even dates of birth and/or death would be extremly helpful. I'll see if there are any available here. There are some newspapers, mostly the New York Times, going back to the early 1900's. It certainly seems like a starting point for a reliable reference. MadMax 20:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'd like to join your effort/National Crime Syndicate article 

message: *As the project seems to be close to five members, making it officially a WikiProject, does anyone have an opinion on how formal the project should be ? Would it be worth, for example, electing a group leader or organizing individual task forces or should the group be less structured with a loosely affiliated group of collaborators ? MadMax 20:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Project Format ?

message: An issue regarding the nessessity of alphabetising lists has been brought up on Talk:List of Irish-American mobsters. It's been proposed the section headers be deleted, given the relatively small size of the list, or reformat the list altogether. Should this be proposed for the other lists ? MadMax 19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List reorganization

message: Considering how easily organized crime falls into the realm of myth, perhaps first-hand accounts should be considered for references? The recent turnover of ex-members of organized crime is a great resource. Americanmafia.com, though it can be full of posturing "wanna-bes" has many articles featuring discussion with ex-members or associates of the American Mafia (Sicilian.) I found this article to be especially educational, and the question-answer sessions would be a great Wikipedia resource. In my opinion, the Mafia article needs a lot of work, mainly in organization of the talk page communication and more control of changes. It's understandable not everyone has time to read a whole book, which even then makes many assumptions, unless written by an ex-member, so the on-line interviews may be helpful.
--Somethingironic 12:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible References 

message: As I noted previously, this article was a complete mess. It was completely unsourced, and above all it was inaccurate. It confused the NCS -- which was a supposed multi-ethnic crime combine in the 1930s-1940s -- with the Mafia itself. Thus there were confusing references to the Mafia Commission, which was within the Mafia and had no jurisidiction over non-Italian gangsters like Dutch Schultz etc. 
AFter hesitating for some weeks I decided to just weigh in and remove the unsourced, unverifiable material and the clearly erroneous Mafia references. After cutting, there wasn't left with much. However, I think a smaller, essentially accurate article is better than a lengthy, totally erroneous one. In searching the Net I found that the erroneous article had been picked up by answers.com and google and spread all over the net! 
Anyway, Max, if you or anyone has some verified sources that can be cited and footnoted, pls weigh in. I'm going to search through my own stuff. The FBI file on Lepke, incidentally, makes no reference to the NCS.--Mantanmoreland 14:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An anonymous editor keeps adding unsourced material conflating the NCS with the internal Mafia war of 1930. Would appreciate a third set of eyes.--Mantanmoreland 16:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * I'll take a look at it right away. Also here are some sources I've been able to dig up on the NCS, although there doesn't seem to be any specific artcle relating to organized crime. MadMax 17:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[National Crime Syndicate]] 

message: *I've recently noticed the creation of multiple subjects dealing with the Mafia. Should there be a proposal to merge these pages or, at the very least, create some sort of distinction between the articles ? MadMax 22:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I've notice a similar problem with Philadelphia cosa nostra articles. We have mentioned in various articles - Philadelphia crime family, Bruno crime family, and others to name what I believe must be the same family, none of which actually have a designated page. Not such a large problem as the Mafia/Cosa Nostra/Italian organized crime thing but still something to be done eventually. Alexbonaro 05:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *As you know there is serious duplication between Mafia and Cosa Nostra. The former is used interchangeably in the media to refer to US and Sicilian based gangsters, while the latter is only for the US. This needs to be reconciled. It is going to be a lot of work. Then there is the problem of poor sourcing and factual errors in many of the articles. It is a persistent problem in articles with references to the so-called National Crime Syndicate, whose very existence is questionable. I fixed the problem in the NCS article but even so, the misinformation in the previous version is all over the Internet. --Mantanmoreland 14:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Hmm..this does seem to pose a serious issue. Perhaps a large scale collaberation with members of the Article Creation Improvement Drive ? MadMax 16:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: *The entry was failed to be nominated and has been removed with only two votes unfortunatly. MadMax 15:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mafia]]/[[Cosa Nostra]]/[[Italian organized crime]]

message: *A new Wanted articles list has been created, based primarily on various missing topics lists I've created in the last year. Any additions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. MadMax 15:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wanted list

message: *Just thought I'd mention the Timeline of organized crime now lists every year from 1880 to 2006. I'd just like to thank everyone for their contributions and hard work which made this possible. MadMax 20:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem Alexbonaro. I'm hoping the 2006 page will serve as a model for the rest of the timeline entries eventually. MadMax 06:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline complete

message: *I'm done some minor work on the project page, including updating the resources section. If anyone knows of a crucial or reliable resource, please feel free to add it as well as anything useful to the to do list or even just a good article you or someone else has written. MadMax 06:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Project page update

message: *Hello everyone, 
:Just wanted to mention a new crime related WikiProject regarding crime in Great Britain (itself related to the Australian Crime WikiProject) if anyone is interested in joining. MadMax 19:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Lucy-marie/WikiProject British Crime|WikiProject British Crime]]

message: MadMax,
Just thought I'd drop you a line and let you know of the charts of the various crime families I have on my userpage. I have 39 charts at the moment; you might find them a useful cross referencing resource. They are from the Real Deal forum which is an OC forum with loads of really knowledgable posters.
Seeya later, Alexbonaro 12:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! Very amazing work. Would it be alright to add to the wanted articles section ? Between your charts and the various missing topics lists, there's more then enough for even a seperate reference section on the project's main page. MadMax 17:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what you mean but you are perfectly welcome to use anything on my userpage in any manner and if there is anything you want me to do then I am happy to help. Please just say anything that needs to be done and I'm on it. :) Alexbonaro 05:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I had an idea for creating a secton on the main project page to display various projects being worked on by project members (for example I've been working on several missing topics lists relating to organized crime). Thanks again for letting me use your lists, they really are very impressive. MadMax 15:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Crime family charts

message: #As many of you may be aware, study of organized crime and related subjects has long been subject to innacuracies, contradicting accounts, and underworld myth. This is of course has unfortunatly proved true of crime authors such as Hank Messick, Jay Robert Nash and others such as the ghostwriters of the autobiography of Lucky Luciano. This has, of course, resulted in dispites and edit wars over content as seen in articles including Mafia, National Crime Syndicate, Louis Buchalter, Meyer Lansky and others.  What I would propose is the compilation of reliable references and other sources as well as to weed out others which are considered unreliable. 
:Regarding (un)reliable sources: It would be a good idea to compile such a list. However, what are the criteria? And what are the outcomes? Deleting all articles that rely too much on unreliable sources? - Mafia Expert 12:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I would suggest first compiling resourced generally acknowedged as questionable or unreliable such as The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano by Martin A. Gosch and Richard Hammer or Michael Gambino's The Honored Society. At the very least, I believe the list could serve as a guide for future editors. If there were an article relying on one particularly unrelable source, I would think simply using a more credible source to correct certain factual errors woud be sufficient. MadMax 08:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good idea. I just wanted to point out that it will have repercussions. Next to a list of unreliable sources, maybe we should have reviews, like the one on The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia, where the reliability is discussed. I think we also should include Claire Sterling's Octopus, which, although rich in detail, gives a completly distorted history of post WW II heroin trafficking as an alien conspiracy of the Sicilian Mafia, leaving out the autonomous French Connection and trafficking networks from the Far East. However, it is considered a reliable source by many, with the important exclusion of most academics. -- Mafia Expert 19:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm..I can see your point. I'm my opinion, I believe the most reliable resources are government reports such as congressional hearings and FBI files available through the Freedom of Information Act and to a lesser extent news reports (although I've found some of them to be innacurate the farther back one goes). I think a major problem regarding this issue is the numerous books, movies, etc. is comparable to the dime novels of the Wild West period. Now with all the mobster autobiographies out there, even more questionable information is available and is, of cource, repeated on countless websites. I've read some good book reviews on AmericanMafia.com and a few other websites, which might give a helpful perspecive. MadMax 02:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Government reports are not always reliable: they are government points of view. I would strongly support academic books, they tend to unravel the myths. There are also serious journalistic accounts. Maybe we should make a list of reliable sources. That would stir less controversy. -- Mafia Expert 08:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created a minor listing of references in MLA format for citing articles I've contributed to in the past of for providing secondary resources for unverified articles if anyone would care to take a look. MadMax 20:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference list

message: I've been involved in WikiProject British Crime as of late, and it occured to me perhaps some sort of collaboration might be arrainged among crime related WikiProjects. Certainly there are well documented cases of British and Australian organized crime, the former having links to various syndicate casinos in London during the 1950s and 60s. MadMax 07:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Collaberation