Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome

message: New article of mine. Perhaps someone would like to add more sources, an image, or perhaps there is a Greek Wikipedia interwiki to add? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Polis (board game)]] 

message: There is an image deletion discussion about the file "Clash of the Titans poster"  in use at Andromeda (mythology). It demonstrates that the myth remains current, and that misinterpretation of the black princess of Aethiopia as a white woman is also continuing, a matter of misogynistic racism in the eyes of some of the cited scholars. Project members are invited to contribute their opinions to the discussion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Andromeda (mythology)]] image deletion discussion 

message: An IP editor on Wikidata has added a different mother for Trajan named Aureliana. The sources for this supposed person seem to be from Medieval Spanish sources, while the supposed mother Marcia who is mainly accepted by modern scholars (as far as I know) is based mainly on the name of Trajan's sister. My question here is if there is any credibility to support the idea of "Aureliana"? Right now the Spanish language article for Trajan seems to portray that Aureliana is correct, which I'm sceptical of. ★Trekker (talk) 09:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The Spanish article suggests Aureliana at one point, but a couple of paragraphs down suggests Marcia or Ulpia with no mention of Aureliana as a possibility, and in the infobox says Marcia. None of the sources they cite for Aureliana seem to be modern scholarly sources, and from searching Google Scholar it is easy to find sources calling Trajan's mother Marcia, or saying that she was probably called Marcia, but I cannot find any scholarly sources supporting Aureliana. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

text: The text in the article should reflect the consensus of reliable sources: if modern scholars heed this mediaeval Spanish source, then it should be dispensed with. At most, a comment should be added saying that some other source says that in the body text; if there are explicit comments that this source is unreliable it should be noted. Ifly6 (talk) 17:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

text: There's an endless swath of claims that medieval literature has claimed particularly about the Roman past. If modern scholarship does not attest to it, or even highlight that medieval source's usage of it, it should not be reflected there. At most, this seems to be a matter only of historiographical interest. Sleath56 (talk) 18:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Medieval treatments of figures from Roman history are still relevant, even when they can be shown to be historically inaccurate.  So are modern ones, though of course here we have to be much more selective due to the number of treatments, many of which aren't necessarily notable.  P Aculeius (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: While I don't disagree with that in spirit, there is a distinct difference between this and more well attested naming discrepancies like that of Tacitus' praenomen which should be remarked upon. Though entries there are not generally discriminating, I'd say a single offhand reference by a medieval source does not credibly qualify this alternate name for inclusion. Sleath56 (talk) 18:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that other sources follow it demonstrates why it should be mentioned: people will run across it and wonder why it says something different from modern sources.  Having it in the article explains that a medieval source gives a different name—what that source is, whether it has any credibility, what basis there might have been for it, and whether modern scholars have anything to say about it.  Failing to mention such materials leaves readers in the dark about an aspect of the topic that they might find confusing.  P Aculeius (talk) 21:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I came across this very interesting writing also in Spanish, sadly since I'm not that good with the language it's hard for me to make out a lot of it or asses it's reliability.★Trekker (talk) 22:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of reading there. The title is "The Baetic roots of Trajan and more new information on his family". The whole book has been put online by the author, along with some others of hers. According to the first endnote some of the work was presented at an international congress in Rome in 1998 Traianus Optimus Princeps; the author is definitely academic, a professor of archaeology at Madrid whose work seems to focus on Roman inscriptions in Spain. According to my searches on two pdf readers, "Aureliana" is not mentioned in this book. If that's confirmed, and since it's an academic publication all about Trajan's family origins, that's a strong reason not to mention Aureliana in our article ... unless in a section about medieval references to Trajan. Generally, one of the things that renders Wikipedia less reliable is when we make alternative views, alternative names and spellings, etc., look equal when reliable sources don't make them look equal. In this I might be disagreeing with P Aculeius, a thing that I don't often do :) Andrew Dalby 09:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: To be clear, I'm not advocating a false equivalency here.  A section on medieval views would be a logical approach, if there were more to say than simply "this medieval source gives a different name for his mother".  That could potentially be footnoted where she's mentioned, or if there's any discussion of her to be had, then an explanation of what medieval sources add or how they differ would be in order.  Under no circumstances should it be presented without context, as though the reader should simply choose which name is right!  But leaving out that she's mentioned, or that the details are different in another source, would be leaving a known question unanswered, and that's my concern.  P Aculeius (talk) 11:15, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Trajan's mother

message: As per a decision agreed to three years ago about a collaborative effort dating to 2013 (see Archive 36; April 12th, 2021), I've decided upon seeing the project's tasks page that we are never going to make Theatre of Pompey a GA (at least in any remote connection to the collaborative effort's section being present on the tasks page). It's just kind of in the way for those of you who like to visit the tasks page. Yes I've lurked for that long :) Paladin Arthur (talk) 02:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I probably should have brought it up first to make sure we still feel the same. If anyone advocates for its continued inclusion on the tasks page there's nothing wrong with reverting and reopening discussion (after all, it was in 2021 when its existence was met with 'meh'). Paladin Arthur (talk) 02:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Collaborative Effort from WP:CGR/tasks 

message: ::I think that arguing over whether Plutarch is a primary or secondary source is maybe a bit moot, a logomachy that obscures a more fundamental issue. 
::Plutarch may technically be secondary or tertiary or even quaternary, in the sense that he is basing his writings on other sources, which aren't always identifiable. But that in itself is not reason to consider him reliable. He is often inaccurate, as noted even by other Classical authors, as well as subsequent historians; his biogs are written to be moral examplars, not accurate historical accounts. But that's not the problem either. Thucydides, by contrast, is a conscientiously exact source, and outright states that he is a primary source, writing from his own observations, on many of the topics he discusses. That is also irrelevant. 
::The key issues are shared by both Plutarch and Thucydides. Firstly, both pre-date all the substantial scholarship on their work, meaning that they are not the last word on almost any topic, and they are not in any way guaranteed to represent the current scholarly consensus. 
::We can see dramatic shifts in consensus on far smaller timescales; for instance, a 1985 news story stating that the US is not selling any weapons to Iran was already obsoleted by the 1986 revelation that actually, yes, the US was breaking its own arms embargo. It is just as possible for a new archeological discovery to falsify a statement by a Classical author.
::Secondly, interpreting Classical sources has become a skilled task. We've literally centuries of scholarly work on how best to interpret them, because it really isn't as simple as it looks. They are written in dead languages, human languages have ambiguities, translations are by their nature capable of being misleading, and cultural context (like an understanding of the authors' perspectives, biasses and conflicts of interest) can also cause us to misinterpret a text.
::This is not a new problem. If I remember correctly, in the 13th century BCE, an Egyptian medic felt it necessary to add glosses to the Secret-book of the Physician, a trauma-treatment manual written around 1600 BCE, because students were failing to understand it. What had been clear a few centuries earlier was now confusing (though 1600 BCE collarbones broke and healed ~just like modern ones).
::It isn't adequate to just have any old modern source discussing these authors. Anyone can read a translation of a Classical author and spout uninformed opinion; pop culture does it all the time, as in medicine. Such sources are unreliable. Uncritically accepting the views of an ancient historian (especially Plutarch) is just not something a topic expert or reliable source would do.
::My interpretation of yesterday's news story leans on the expertise of the journalist. The news story should not be missing any significant info, and it should not mislead the average modern reader (or it isn't RS). My interpretation of Plutarch is far less reliable. Plutarch is out-of-date and was not writing to be understood by the modern reader. Even experts lean on him with caution, through a hedge of caveats, as Wikipedia should do.
::A reliable source gives expert appraisal of what can currently be known. A source is reliable only if it has throughly considered the information currently available on a topic: major primary sources on the topic (including sources not available to the Classical authors, like archeological excavations, or, say, DNA testing of victims of the Great Plague of Athens), and significant previous interpretations and other non-primary sources, which may have useful insights. No Classical source can do any of that. Most pop sources can't.
::So two problems; Classical sources are superceeded by later work; and, interpreting them is a job for an expert. Reliable sources need to give state-of-the-art information (even if no-one has done any work in the field for a century), expertly interpreted for the modern reader. HLHJ (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: On sources which are superceeded or require expert interpretation