Talk:Sweetest Day/Archive 3

message: The introduction is straight from the promotional websites of Retail Confectioners International, American Greetings and Hallmark. The purpose of these websites is to promote Sweetest Day. Most of the references for this page are also promotional in nature. Here are sourcing guidelines. The following statements in the article are questionable:
* Sweetest Day is a holiday celebrated primarily in the Great Lakes region and parts of the Northeast United States[1] (with Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo, New York being the biggest Sweetest Day cities[2] ) on the third Saturday in October. It is described by Retail Confectioners International as an "occasion which offers all of us an opportunity to remember not only the sick, aged and orphaned, but also friends, relatives and associates whose helpfulness and kindness we have enjoyed."
* The origin of Sweetest day is frequently attributed to candy company employee Herbert Birch Kingston as an act of philanthropy.
* This tradition now largely involves giving small presents such as greeting cards, candy, and flowers to loved ones. While it is not as large or widely observed as Valentine's Day, it is still celebrated in parts of the United States, despite persistent allegations of being a Hallmark holiday.
These statements should be properly and reliably sourced, or removed from the article.
Again, American Greetings, Hallmark, Retail Confectioners International and other Sweetest Day websites are not reliable sources for facts about Sweetest Day, because they are promotional in nature.
There is plenty of sourced/factual information about Sweetest Day out there. Just look here. Miracleimpulse 07:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: --Transfinite 17:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This Sweetest Day Article Reads Like A Promotional Advertisement

message: I believe the article as-is does not need the  tag, since only one editor (Miracleimpulse) is disputing it, and most of the facts are either sourced or simply semantics (such as calling Sweetest Day a holiday).  However, I'll post it here before I do any more reverts, so I do not run afoul of WP:3RR. --Transfinite 17:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed Tag 

message: Wow this article got fantastic overnight. How about a Featured Article Nomination for next Saturday? Miracleimpulse 11:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Article Nomination 

message: You know, even if the whole thing started as an industry-generated holiday, that doesn't preclude its existance as a valid minor modern holiday. All holidays must start somewhere, whether that's a government declaration, religious mandate, or candy industry promotion. The bottom line for its status as a holiday should be whether or not it's verifiably observed. --tjstrf 22:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A comment on this whole issue... 

message: I still have a problem with references #1,2,3 and 4. These websites are promotional in nature; they sell merchandise for Sweetest Day and do not reference their statements in any way. All statements referenced to these sources should be re-referenced or removed from the article. Miracleimpulse 11:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Advertising References

message: Isotope I notice that you edited out the names of the Sweetest Day Founders (except for Mr. Kimberly) and the names of the Candy Companies which participated in the origins of Sweetest Day. You have also edited out this information in the past. The companies involved in the creation of Sweetest Day are significant facts in the article, as many of these companies still exist today, although it seems like none of them even mention Sweetest Day on their websites. Here is the list of companies which participated in the creation of Sweetest Day:
Companies and organizations advertised in The Cleveland Plain Dealer and The Cleveland Press which participated in the first two Sweetest Days included:
The Cleveland Plain Dealer Newspaper, The Cleveland Business Exchange, The Cleveland Advertising Club, Hotel Statler, Whitman's Candies, Loew's Park Theater, Loew's State Theater, The Ohio Theater, Apollo Chocolates, F.H. Roberts Company, Crane's Party Box, Ohio Confection Company, Euclid's Chocolates, Nimburger Hahn (Louis Hahn?) Candies, Shoot's Chocolates, Thurston's Magic Box Candies, Johnston's Candies, Hoffman's Candy And Ice Cream Companies, H.M.D Candies, Midland Candy Boxes, Standard Drug Stores (16 locations), Troughton's Sugar Jar Candies, Weideman's Candies, Addison Pharmacy, Alpha Pharmacy, The Bank Lunch, Benfield And Benfield (Benfield Drug Company), Bruggator And Ripley, H.D. Butler, W.W. Brown Company, Buckstein Drug Company, Cleveland Pharmacy, Deklyn's Candies, Deutch And Rosengarten, Fischer Rohr Company, Cedar Drug Company, Geiger Moss Drug Company, Geraldine Ferrar Company, Gerson Drug Company, Glick's Candies, Gordon Square Pharmacy, Hough Avenue Drug Company, The J.M. Gasser Company, Kappus Drug Store, Lakewood Pharmacy, Lake Shore Pharmacy, Liggett's Pharmacy, Marshall's Drug Stores (26 locations), Maxixe Cherries, Miller's Drug Stores, Parkgate Pharmacy, Price Drug Company, J.G. Reed And Company, M. Rinzler, Ritter's Candies, Seltzer Drug Company, G. Schneider-Richards Company, The Superior Peanut Company, H.M. Stage Company, Andrew E. Walleck Company, Weinberger-Euclid Drug Company, J.L. Westaway Company, Winton Hotel Drug Company, W.L.Wilson Company, Wyandotte Pharmacy, Wrigleys Gum, Reymer's Chocolates and BonBons, Edwards Candies, MacDiarmids Candies, Phelp's Candy, Mary Lincoln Candy Company, The Cross Candy Company, Forbes Chocolate Company, M. S. Stores, Romance Chocolates by The Wynne Wood, The Orient Company (baskets for candy), The Geo. H. Bowman Company, The May Company, Bailey's Department Store, Benedict's (dancing), Huyler's Candies, Martha Washington Candies, Bordens Chocolates, Schrafft's Chocolates, Playhouse Chocolates, Stranahan Brothers Company, Jackson-Trace Company, Beeman's Pepsin Gum, The Handy Service Store, and Ex-Lax (The Sweet Chocolate Laxative), Fanny Farmer Candies, The Loft, Inc.
Again, Isotope, it appears that you are spinning this article in favor of Industry. Please reinsert the facts. Thank you. Miracleimpulse 15:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As for the header you keep adding in, I think it is unecessary and interrupts the flow of the article.  All that information pertains to the origin of Sweetest Day and should be listed under the origin section.--Isotope23 17:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Candy Companies That Helped Start Sweetest Day

message: ...in Cleveland, and there is no mention of Sweetest Day on The Cleveland Plain Dealer's website. Not even one story about Sweetest Day in the Cleveland news this year? Maybe Cleveland isn't such a big Sweetest Day City after all... Miracleimpulse 14:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So it's not a particularly big or important holiday, and perhaps it's on the downswing in degree of observance rather than a growing trend.  That doesn't make it a "hoax".  Anyway, there have been many past articles in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, as you yourself have pointed out. *Dan T.* 15:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think the intro needs to be altered.  It is a minor holiday. — Reinyday, 02:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Sonria 01:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was all over the damned place, here in Cincinnati.  See  for an example.Cgirten 07:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Today is Sweetest Day

message: ===Request for comment===
* This section details some of the methods used by the Greeting Card Industry to take the Sweetest Day promotion national. Other Wikipedia editors are invited to expand this section of the article (in an NPOV manner of course) and post it into the current Sweetest Day page. 
Over the past several weeks these methods have been used by Industry in the marketing of Sweetest Day in order to sell tens of millions of products to Americans. The actions of Industry are documented and verified by tens of millions of copyrighted statements (greeting cards which contain the verisimilitudes). This is in no way a new synthesis of Sweetest Day being a Hallmark Holiday. Please make your comments at the bottom of this section. No personal attacks! 08:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Thank you for the editing tips Reinyday! It's very simple. The Herbert Birch Kingston story of the origins of origins of Sweetest Day is a verisimilitude which replaces the truth through dissimulation. Sock puppet companies then repeat the distortion endlessly and there you have it: a legend which never occurred. Some would like this to be perceived as a popular mythology, but it is not. It is industry-generated, highly deceptive and used to sell products. Do not think of it as a little white lie. American Greetings and Hallmark just issued tens of millions of Sweetest Day products with this distortion printed right on the back of every card. Now do you see where I am coming from? Every day will be equally sweet when this type of market and consumer manipulation comes to an end. Miracleimpulse 09:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment  got evidence from a reliable source?  If so, then please link it here and we have something to discuss; otherwise this is more theorizing and conjecture and there really is no point in having a discussion.  Like it or not, this version of events has been widely reported, enough that regardless of whatever the truth may be, the HBK story is still the most widely reported origin.  If you have solid evidence that a particular company started the HBK story, I'd love to see it; otherwise this whole discussion is a waste of time.--Isotope23 13:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of companies have promoted "histories" that are at least partly bogus, and actually, Wikipedia is pretty good at cutting through them and giving the real facts when they can be verified.  Look at the articles on Monopoly (game) (it wasn't invented by Charles Darrow), McDonald's (it wasn't started by Ray Kroc), and Skippy peanut butter (they'd rather you didn't know about the decades-long battle over how they allegedly ripped off a cartoonist who created a character named Skippy in order to get the trademark on the name).  Similarly, the article on Sweetest Day gives some skeptical scrutiny to its origin story rather than merely parroting the corporate propaganda.  On the other hand, we're not a scandal sheet or a political rant site either; it's not proper to have our articles be dominated by long rants about how evil the corporations are. I think we've got decent balance in these articles, giving both the corporations' side and that of the critics, with well-referenced facts. *Dan T.* 13:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The greeting card industry's methods of promoting Sweetest Day

message: * This section details some of the methods used by the Greeting Card Industry to take the Sweetest Day promotion national. Other Wikipedia editors are invited to expand this section of the article (in an NPOV manner of course) and post it into the current Sweetest Day page. 
Over the past several weeks these methods have been used by Industry in the marketing of Sweetest Day in order to sell tens of millions of products to Americans. The actions of Industry are documented and verified by tens of millions of copyrighted statements (greeting cards which contain the verisimilitudes). This is in no way a new synthesis of Sweetest Day being a Hallmark Holiday. Please make your comments at the bottom of this section. No personal attacks! 08:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comment

message: American Greetings sock puppetry of Hallmark's website 2006.
More sock puppetry from American Greetings' website.
Even more...
Let's talk about it. Miracleimpulse 23:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Thank you for the editing tips Reinyday! It's very simple. The Herbert Birch Kingston story of the origins of origins of Sweetest Day is a verisimilitude which replaces the truth through dissimulation. Sock puppet companies then repeat the distortion endlessly and there you have it: a legend which never occurred. Some would like this to be perceived as a popular mythology, but it is not. It is industry-generated, highly deceptive and used to sell products. Do not think of it as a little white lie. American Greetings and Hallmark just issued tens of millions of Sweetest Day products with this distortion printed right on the back of every card. Now do you see where I am coming from? Every day will be equally sweet when this type of market and consumer manipulation comes to an end. Miracleimpulse 09:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment  got evidence from a reliable source?  If so, then please link it here and we have something to discuss; otherwise this is more theorizing and conjecture and there really is no point in having a discussion.  Like it or not, this version of events has been widely reported, enough that regardless of whatever the truth may be, the HBK story is still the most widely reported origin.  If you have solid evidence that a particular company started the HBK story, I'd love to see it; otherwise this whole discussion is a waste of time.--Isotope23 13:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of companies have promoted "histories" that are at least partly bogus, and actually, Wikipedia is pretty good at cutting through them and giving the real facts when they can be verified.  Look at the articles on Monopoly (game) (it wasn't invented by Charles Darrow), McDonald's (it wasn't started by Ray Kroc), and Skippy peanut butter (they'd rather you didn't know about the decades-long battle over how they allegedly ripped off a cartoonist who created a character named Skippy in order to get the trademark on the name).  Similarly, the article on Sweetest Day gives some skeptical scrutiny to its origin story rather than merely parroting the corporate propaganda.  On the other hand, we're not a scandal sheet or a political rant site either; it's not proper to have our articles be dominated by long rants about how evil the corporations are. I think we've got decent balance in these articles, giving both the corporations' side and that of the critics, with well-referenced facts. *Dan T.* 13:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sock_puppet Sock Puppetry]

message: I reverted your changes Miracleimpulse.  Don't use the article as a sandbox for your changes.  Adding empty sections is not the correct way to edit an article..  The section you added about New York has already been merged into "Origins" by multiple editors and there is no consensus to break it out.  The HBK section is original research, is editorial/expose in nature, and doesn't add anything of value to the article.  This is exactly the sort of editing behavior that has led to your previous blocks.  I'm asking you nicely to please stop being disruptive here.--Isotope23 15:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert

message: These Sweetest Day facts should be incorporated into the article:
1. The Chairman of the first Sweetest Day in the Year Committee was C. C. Hartsell.
2. The other Founders who comprised the first Sweetest Day in the Year Committee were: C.R. Canter, A.E. Barton, R. T. Fuller, J. J. Wilsdon, R. H. Sheehan, W. A. Katzenmeyer, A. A. Sarouch, Louis Hahn, W. J. Nichols, L. Narwood and L. E. Gruber.
3. On the first Sweetest Day, the largest candy advertisement in The Cleveland Plain Dealer was for Whitman's Candies.
4. One week before the second Sweetest Day, in a 4-page Sweetest Day Section, a full page editorial telling Clevelanders why they should celebrate Sweetest Day was published in The Cleveland Plain Dealer.
5. Also published in the 4-page Sweetest Day Section on 10/8/1922 an article written by the Commissioner of Health from New York City (Royal S. Copeland) was published telling Clevelanders to "Eat Candy as Part of Meal and Be Happy."
6. One week before the second Sweetest Day, actor Jimmy Hussey promised candy for all Cleveland.
 
7. One week before the second Sweetest Day, a coupon was published in The Cleveland Plain Dealer to be used for giving candy to poor people.
8. The names of all candy companies which participated in the promotion of the first two Sweetest Days should be added to the article. [Note to Isotope: this is not an "unnecessary level of detail." It demonstrates the true scope of the initial Sweetest Day marketing efforts.].
9. The 4-page Sweetest Day Section published in The Cleveland Plain Dealer on October 8, 1922 reached over 220,000 Clevelanders.
10. Herbert Birch Kingston's 1920 Cuyahoga County, Ohio census form should be added to the article, showing that as of 1920, Herbert Birch Kingston was an advertiser.
Please incorporate these facts (and photos or links to photos) into the Sweetest Day article. Thank you! Lots more to come! Miracleimpulse 14:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't look at all like an advertisement to me; it does mention the "promotional" story, but mentions that it's a promotional story and that it's criticized; and it has copious footnotes.  Not very ad-like to me. *Dan T.* 00:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The first two sentences in the introduction of the article are straight off of Retail Confectioners International's promotional website about Sweetest Day. The holiday infobox says buy cards and candy. In the Sweetest Day Today section, the article says giving small presents such as greeting cards, candy and flowers to loved ones. I'll bet you can't see that 100 US Service Personel were blown away in Iraq during the month of October this year while back at home Hallmark, American Greetings and Retail Confectioners International faked America out with Sweetest Day verisimilitudes to sell products, either. Remove the verisimilitudes and stop using this Wikipedia article as a promotional device! Miracleimpulse 01:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The number of American service personnel killed in Iraq is relevant to this... why? *Dan T.* 01:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: * The issue goes to credibility and integrity. Industry (especially American Greetings and Hallmark in this case) suffers a huge disconnect when it comes to responsibility for their actions. Promoting fake holidays like Sweetest Day on false pretenses lowers the credibility and integrity of everything else these companies do. It lowers the integrity and credibility of American Sentiment overall, making it easier for the world to hate America. How many little treats and boxes of candy were given by Industry to American Service Personel to commemorate Sweetest Day 2006? Zero. Why should Wikipedia give them free advertising? Miracleimpulse 02:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Once again you are trying to create a relationship between two things that are completely unrelated.  You can't seriously be suggesting that a minor, regional, "holiday" that likely has never been heard of outside the States (as evidenced by the AfD initiated by someone, who was if I recall correctly a Brit, because they had never heard of "Sweetest Day") is somehow linked to the United States international image problem?  Where is the data that supports this?  Where is any respected academic suggesting that Hallmark, Anmerican Greetings, or any other commercial concern is responsible for the global image problem the U.S. has?  If your primary concern is the causes of the current global dislike of the American  there are numerous other articles on Wikipedia you should be focusing on: Preemptive war, George W. Bush, Iraq War... among others.--Isotope23 14:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Comment Re:The infobox - I put in what I felt the two "Celebrations" were - the reason Hallmark, etc. etc. gives, and what people who are critical of the holiday say it is for (buying useless junk). --Transfinite 04:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sweetest Day facts

message: Image instructions were already removed by another editor... it is unecessary to have instructions in the images on how to enlarge.  Beyond that, trying to go around consensus to remove those images from the article by linking them to image text is the wrong way to do this Miracleimpulse.  You should create an  image gallery in Wikicommons and add a wikicommons link to the article.  That is the correct way to link to extraneous images.--Isotope23 20:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't look at all like an advertisement to me; it does mention the "promotional" story, but mentions that it's a promotional story and that it's criticized; and it has copious footnotes.  Not very ad-like to me. *Dan T.* 00:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The first two sentences in the introduction of the article are straight off of Retail Confectioners International's promotional website about Sweetest Day. The holiday infobox says buy cards and candy. In the Sweetest Day Today section, the article says giving small presents such as greeting cards, candy and flowers to loved ones. I'll bet you can't see that 100 US Service Personel were blown away in Iraq during the month of October this year while back at home Hallmark, American Greetings and Retail Confectioners International faked America out with Sweetest Day verisimilitudes to sell products, either. Remove the verisimilitudes and stop using this Wikipedia article as a promotional device! Miracleimpulse 01:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The number of American service personnel killed in Iraq is relevant to this... why? *Dan T.* 01:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: * The issue goes to credibility and integrity. Industry (especially American Greetings and Hallmark in this case) suffers a huge disconnect when it comes to responsibility for their actions. Promoting fake holidays like Sweetest Day on false pretenses lowers the credibility and integrity of everything else these companies do. It lowers the integrity and credibility of American Sentiment overall, making it easier for the world to hate America. How many little treats and boxes of candy were given by Industry to American Service Personel to commemorate Sweetest Day 2006? Zero. Why should Wikipedia give them free advertising? Miracleimpulse 02:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Once again you are trying to create a relationship between two things that are completely unrelated.  You can't seriously be suggesting that a minor, regional, "holiday" that likely has never been heard of outside the States (as evidenced by the AfD initiated by someone, who was if I recall correctly a Brit, because they had never heard of "Sweetest Day") is somehow linked to the United States international image problem?  Where is the data that supports this?  Where is any respected academic suggesting that Hallmark, Anmerican Greetings, or any other commercial concern is responsible for the global image problem the U.S. has?  If your primary concern is the causes of the current global dislike of the American  there are numerous other articles on Wikipedia you should be focusing on: Preemptive war, George W. Bush, Iraq War... among others.--Isotope23 14:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Comment Re:The infobox - I put in what I felt the two "Celebrations" were - the reason Hallmark, etc. etc. gives, and what people who are critical of the holiday say it is for (buying useless junk). --Transfinite 04:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert

message: OK... enough picking on Sweetest Day, which is over with for this year now anyway.  Why don't you find something to attack about Halloween instead... I bet that holiday is responsible for vastly more sales for the candy industry than Sweetest Day.  Sure, Halloween has actual non-marketing origins, but they're connected with pagan religions that almost nobody actually follows these days, and it has been mutated beyond recognition by modern Americans anyway. *Dan T.* 15:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Halloween, as we celebrate it, is actually entirely manufactured in this society. Out society, much as many other holidays, has massively commercialised it. Is that good or bad? No idea, but that's how it is.  Wow I'm off topic... I'll shut up now. :) ---J.S (t|c) 23:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't feel bad... much of this talk page is completely off topic...--Isotope23 01:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holidays to pick on... 

message: Wow, this is the first I've heard of Sweetest Day being about candy. I guess I just assumed it was a Hallmark holiday constructed to get people to buy more Valentine's Day crap in October. While I suppose candy is often involved (chocolate covered strawberries seem to be common), there is far more emphasis on the term-of-endearment "sweet" than the sugar-based "sweet." Look around, and you'll see plenty of red and pink hearts, red and pink roses teddy bears dressed in such, and just about everything else one would associate with February 14th, only with "Sweetest" in place of "Valentine's." I never would have guessed this was a marketing ploy by some confectioners in the 1920s. If it weren't for this paragraph, I'd say this article was completely irrelevant to modern day. --75.117.254.90 15:29, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Valentine's Day in October 

message: Substituted at 22:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment