Talk:I'm a Believer

message: This doesn't seem like a stub. It seems like a pretty good article, in fact. Lkleinow (talk) 18:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs some work and alot needs to be added.  Yamaka122 ...:) 23:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: This page is all over the place with its information. It needs cleaning up.
"I'm a Believer" is a song composed by Neil Diamond and recorded by The Monkees in 1966 with the lead vocals by Micky Dolenz.
Neil Diamond had already recorded this song before it was covered by The Monkees, and it still sometimes appears in his live concerts. (When did he record it, on what album, just a demo, etc.)
Session guitarist Al Gorgoni (who later played on "The Sound of Silence" and "Brown Eyed Girl") had worked on Diamond's "Cherry, Cherry" and also contributed to this song. Other personnel on the record include Sal Ditroia on guitar, Dick Romoff on bass, Artie Butler on organ, Jeff Barry on piano and tambourine, and Buddy Saltzman on drums. (Which recording is this referring to? The Monkees or the original Neil Diamond?)
Selected list of recorded versions
    1966: "The Monkees" single, also on the 1967 album More of The Monkees
    1967: The Fifth Estate on the album Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead
    1967: The Four Tops on the album Reach Out
    1967: The Ventures on the album Guitar Freakout
    1967: Neil Diamond on the album Just for You, reissued on the 1983 album Classics: The Early Years
Where is the original Neil Diamond recording? One would think it would be included.
Also, information on the right has the Monkees album and underneath says "single by The Monkees". Yet it's by Neil Diamond.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.91.75.29 (talk) 20:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing page 

message: " (who played on "The Sound of Silence" and later on "Brown Eyed Girl") " because it has nothing to do with the article subject. Carptrash (talk) 00:57, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  I just removed this 

message: I've been trying to clean up this excessive detail about Neil Diamond's own version, and the bot keeps reverting my edits as vandalism. Much of the new content is unreferenced or unreliably sourced. Also, someone added the musicians on Diamond's own version but didn't cite any sources, whereas the personnel on The Monkees' version are reliably sourced, and maybe I'm mistaken, but the inclusion of all this detail about Diamond's own version is on the verge of WP:COATRACK. I think the article could use some cleanup.--2601:153:881:3D60:991D:21B9:F45C:98AB (talk) 07:36, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: His version was an R&B version 98.115.168.68 (talk) 02:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neil Diamond's own version 

message: Just realized that the song "Sono Bugiarda" by Caterina Caselli has the same tune as this song. I think it would be interesting to people to hear there is a version of "I am believer" in Italian. https://secondhandsongs.com/performance/14058/versions  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.208.22.11 (talk) 01:32, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caterina Caselli 

message: tried added brief info proving it existed outside my memory of 1995, but don't have nay more sources to hand.
Apparently discogs doesn't count as proof for wiki, bah.
update that got auto revised by the bot: 
"It was also covered as a joint single by EMF & Reeves And Mortimer in 1995 which reached no. 3 in the UK chart."
Can't prove this but it had the lyrics published at the time in Smash Hits.
78.145.14.174 (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  was covered by EMF w/ Reeves and Mortimer as a single & reached no 3 in the charts - pos needs it's own section  

message: As a big hit and perennial classic, I'm a Believer has been played a great many times in a great many situations.  The "Later uses" section should therefore focus only in particularly notable uses with significant coverage in good sources that can be cited.  So I'm afraid that being played on occasions at a football match, and sourced either to a fan forum or a player's biography is really not significant and trivia.  Same for The Simpsons and South Park
Note that notability here is significance to the song, not to anything or anyone else.  That means it may be notable to Marvin Andrews or Chickenpox (South Park), but is really of no significance to I'm a Believer.  --Escape Orbit (Talk) 11:23, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Later uses notability 

message: At the time of writing, the article currently states the song was "recorded on 8-track tape". Sorry, but I'd like to know where the source for this is, because I highly doubt it was recorded this way. The song itself sounds very much to me like it was recorded and mixed on 4-track equipment, with tracks being bounced down to free up space for overdubs at later stages, something which was quite common at the time. The backing track (save for a tambourine overdub) being entirely in mono on the final mix, along with its (the backing track's) murky sound quality that would come from bouncing down tapes to the point where they are one or two generations removed from the original tracking session, very much indicates this to be the case. The fact that some but not all of the song's multitracks were missing for some time (see the second-last paragraph below) is also further indication that the song was recorded and bounced down in various stages. Now I obviously don't have access to the tapes, but using the original stereo mix, the remix on the super deluxe edition of the album as well as the various 'alternate vocal take' mixes/remixes as a guide, this track breakdown appears to be how the song was recorded:
Stage 1: backing track
Track 1 - guitars
Track 2 - organ and first tambourine
Track 3 - bass
Track 4 - drums
Jeff Barry recorded the backing tracks this way for other Monkees songs he produced around the same time. However, since all four tracks had been used, this stage would be bounced down to mono in order to free up three tracks for vocal overdubs. Again, this is something you hear on, but not all, other Monkees songs Jeff Barry produced from around this time, where they consist of bounced-down mono backing tracks with stereo overdubs that were added during their later stages (e.g. "Look Out (Here Comes Tomorrow)", "Hold on Girl", "Laugh", "Sometime in the Morning").
Stage 2: vocal overdubs
Track 1 - reduction of stage 1 backing track
Track 2 - lead vocal (alternate take)
Track 3 - backing vocals 1
Track 4 - backing vocals 2
Like with "Laugh", the backing vocals were recorded across two tracks - listening to later remixes of the song do show there is some left-right stereo spread with them. At some point though it must have been decided to redo the lead vocal, but instead of simply erasing the alternate take and recording over it, the decision was made to bounce this stage down without carrying the alternate lead vocal over. Why another reduction was made is unclear, but I would assume it had something to do with adding additional instrumentation, which would necessitate bouncing down in order to keep both sets of backing vocals while being able to redo the lead vocal, thus freeing up two tracks (one for a new lead vocal and the other for additional instrumentation) instead of just the one that would be available from stage 2. At the same time, perhaps the alternate lead vocal could have been kept as a backup in case there were problems with stage 3, in case it didn't work out and they had something to fall back on?
Stage 3: additional vocal / instrument overdubs
Track 1 - second reduction of Stage 1 backing track
Track 2 - reduction of stage 2 backing vocals 1 and 2
Track 3 - lead vocal (master take)
Track 4 - second tambourine and handclaps
This is the song's final stage from which the mono and stereo mixes were made from. Keeping the backing vocals separate from the backing track during the reduction from stage 2 to stage 3 would mean they could be mixed separately in the final stage instead of having them 'locked' with the band.
The alternate vocal take mix from the 1994 remaster is in mono (I'd assume it's a vintage mix), and the backing track is at a higher fidelity compared to the standard mono and stereo mixes, which would make sense if it was one generation closer to the first stage rather than being another reduction like it would have been at the final stage. Meanwhile, the alternate vocal take mix from the 2006 deluxe edition was made by syncing the vocals from stage 2 with the initial stage 1 tracking session rather than the mono reduction of the instruments used during the stage 2 tracking, which meant the backing track could be mixed in full stereo and with much higher sound quality than before. The multitracks for stage 3 however had gone missing at some point (I recall this being confirmed by Andrew Sandoval on at least one occasion but I can't remember where), and as a result, the master lead vocal take, the second tambourine and the handclaps couldn't be used for any new or alternate mixes until the super deluxe edition, when they were finally located.
So looking at all of this, while there are eight separate tracks overall (nine if you include the alternate lead vocal), the song would certainly have been recorded and mixed on equipment that could not facilitate eight individual tracks together. Therefore the statement that the song was "recorded on 8-track tape" must be wrong. 82.44.192.75 (talk) 01:00, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Andrew Sandoval, it was four-track (p. 64). Tkbrett (✉) 01:05, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  8-track recording? I don't think so...