Talk:Detroit/Archive 1

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I'm thinking of visiting Detroit in January for day trips while I am in Windsor for a while.  Can someone please tell me which areas to avoid for safety concerns?  dave 23:54, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: You're funny. Rules are the same as any other large city. Stay out of unlit places, avoid housing projects. If a girl comes up and asks you if you're looking for a date she wants money... =) Seriously though, stay in the downtown area, (come through the tunnel) there's plenty for a tourist to do - casinos, pubs (get to Hockeytown if you can), go see a show at the Fox or the State. If you were moving to Detroit proper, that's another story, then it's all about the neighborhood. Hope this is of some use. vudu 00:47, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I wasn't really trying to be funny, although I thought I some people (like those who live in Detroit) might have a reaction like that.  I know to avoid unlit areas and housing projects but I'm the type of person who wouldn't notice I was in one until I was in the middle of it.  I just thought there might be some specific blocks to stay out of.  I was told to stay out of Downtown at night.  Perhaps this is not true for all of downtown. Are there areas of downtown which are safe at night?  dave 17:22, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

text: Speaking as a resident of Detroit (proper) I can tell you that the advice you received were probably from tourists of the area. A lot of people claim Detroit as a hometown, but don't live there, don't know the city beyond Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park, Hockeytown, and Ford Field and spend more time talking smack than actually going to the city. From the tunnel just head straight up Woodward. If you're young and "hip", try the Magic Stick. For the "professional" Hockeytown is further up the road and the Town Pump Tavern is on State (I think....I've had a few too many the few times I've been there). There's a casino near the Hockeytown/Ford Field/Comerica section. Oh yeah, the Rockettes are at the Fox until the 28th of December. First timer in Detroit? Hold your head up and don't be intimidated, those "bad" people can see fear a mile away. Stay on Woodward, travel with friends if it helps make you feel comfortable. Enjoy the city. Hope this is of use. vudu 02:53, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Visiting Detroit

message: ----
*Detroit, Michigan Population changed from 1.6 million to 1.85 million; 06:39, 6 Feb 2004; (diff).
**Verified, according to U.S. Census --Minesweeper 00:17, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Population change?

message: Where are the 2002 population figures from? 
The current version says: As of 2002, the city has a total population of 1,120,051
The previous version had: As of 2002, the city has a total population of 925,051
I can't find either of these 2002 figures at the U.S. Census web site. For example, this page  has these figures:
 2002 Estimate:  889,888
 Lower Bound:    858,464
 Upper Bound:    921,312
The 2000 census figure of 951,270 is correct . So unless there is a source for either of the versions above, I suggest we use the 2002 Estimate. Bkonrad | Talk 13:08, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  2002 population figures 

message: The user Moncrief seemed puzzled by the line in Demographics noting that Detroit's ethnic groups primarily came from New York in the early 20th century. While the initial casting of the sentence was a bit loose, its essence was accurate. (I've tweaked the wording for more precision.)
Detroit's ethnic communities, like those throughout the Midwest, came to the city by way of New York. If it were simply a matter of immigrants' passing through Ellis Island on their way to Michigan, the point would be academic. However, a large number of Detroit's early ethnic families were bona fide New York transplants who'd been lured by the rising auto industry. 
In fact, the State of Michigan at one point maintained a program to draw these New York emigres -- not just for industrial work but for boosting agriculture elsewhere in the state. Representatives staged recruiting efforts in New York's ethnic wards. Semolina Pilchard 22:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "New York" in regard to ethnic immigration? 

message: I see that there have been some attempts to consolidate information into categories. That's not a bad idea; efficient organization of the page can only help.
However, this consolidation has taken place at the expense of the article's lead-in, which now consists of three paragraphs: a decent opening graf, a number-cluttered second graf, and an incongruous third graf about urban blight and crime rates. Gone is such essential introductory information about Detroit's importance in manufacturing and music.
I've got nothing against the idea of creating categories to expand on these topics. That's a logical way to construct the page, and is helpful for readers. But an article's opening passage is crucial: It is the place where key concepts should be introduced to provide readers with a glimpse at the broader picture. It should not be a mishmash of arbitrary stuff.
When I've got time, I'm going to go back in and reconstruct the opening. Meantime, please take care not to delete large blocks of existing text while trying to consolidate information into categories.
Thanks, Semolina Pilchard 
Dec. 13, 2004
:I agree. I will let you do it (since numbers-cluttered paragraphs are my specialty and we don't need more of them here). Rmhermen 05:20, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
::Keep an eye on the photos too.  They seem to be crowding some of the text.  The image of the Detroit skyline is overlapping some text in the table of contents last time I checked.  I am viewing Wikipedia on Firefox--this may have something to do with it, but the images seem a little overcrowded anyway.  I'm no expert with photo placement so I dare not change it, but it's something to keep in mind for future revision.  -Gsgeorge 15:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes 

message: Today i noticed that Kingturtle reverted the edits made by  128.113.136.201. I think it's totally reasonable to order the list by population, which puts "Black" instead of "White" first. This is exactly what 128.113.136.201 changed it to. Therefore i disagree with Kingturtle's revert. Does anyone else have an opinion on this topic? foobaz·✐ 08:19, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  14 Jan racial breakdown changes 

message: Hey what happened to the picture of the Detroit skyline? that was a nice picture.
:It appears that it is missing, as well as the image of Cadillac's landing.  It's probably a result of Boothy's recent overhaul.  I'll track them down and re-insert them later unless someone beats me to the punch.  I'm not sure why they were taken out in the first place.  If anyone has any objections to reisnerting them, comment.  Thanks for pointing it out.  Gsgeorge 01:07, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, go for it. No objections here. Meanwhile, where do we stand with the whole revising-the-Boothy-revisions thing? You and I cleaned up quite a bit of it, but it seems there were some remaining concerns. And with the recent Wiki downtime, I'm a little lost on where stuff is at. Ahh well. For now, I'm off to update the Detroit Electronic Music Festival page, in light of today's Free Press story with the latest twist in that ongoing saga... Semolina Pilchard 02:29, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Photos after heavy edits

message: Someone called Tiger Stadium "dilapidated," which is not even remotely a NPOV, and which also overlooks the fact that the stadium was much beloved.  It's much more appropriate to call it "historic."  
Also, it was written that Compuware's new building was the first major office building in two decades.  Did someone forget Comerica Tower (1992)--the city's second tallest building?
:I was in Tiger Stadium for the Bud Bowl party and if it isn't "dilapidated" it is on the way.  The field is muddy, some of the exposed girders are rusting and some of the decorative facing below the roofline has fallen off.   One of the local papers had photographs of a tree growing out of a seat.  Dmoon 12:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiger Stadium/Downtown Office Buildings 

message: My source for my recent edits of population data is:
:http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?-format=US-10S
There are other pages on http://census.gov with the same data, but that has the most helpful format, especially since it includes the area and density. Foobaz·✐ 02:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population data source 

message: I'm not sure the longest, wordiest part of the Detroit entry should be information about the pastries that are eaten on "Fat Tuesday." Semolina Pilchard 19:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, but as a former resident of the area i can tell you the information is accurate. And it's nice to have something in the culture section that doesn't sound ghetto. Foobaz·o< 19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Um... 

message: Suggestion
See www.SEMCOG.org, "Data" >> "Population Estimates">> "Population and Household Estimates for Southeast Michigan" Download "Population and Household Estimates for Southeast Michigan - May 2005" (http://www.semcog.org/Data/PopulationEstimates/index.htm) .  SEMCOG (The Southeast Michigan Council of Governments) provides more quality, up-do-date population & household estimates.
:Sure, add them if you like and cite the source, but since those numbers are produced from a very different method and source than census data, don't remove the numbers in the article. Read the FAQ on the page you've linked to, for how they get their data. Vacancy rates are particularly problematic to estimate I'd think. In any case thanks for the info. Please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~)- Taxman Talk 21:17, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
As I understand it, SEMCOG uses 100% counts from the decennial Census as the base, but uses superior data to complete the estimate.  The FAQ doesn't give a full explanation of the methodology; it may be worth speaking with a SEMCOG demographer.  Normally I would think Census estimates would be sufficient, but given the intense interest in the City's declining population, it may be helpful to include SEMCOG's estimates, as they are used for a number of governmental planning purposes in SE Michigan and differ from the Census' estimates program.  I don't have the time right now to work out the writing right now; it would be a bit of a challenge to present both numbers without confusing the readers.  So I leave this only as food for thought.
On the topic of SEMCOG, another report available at their website that may be useful for this article is "Detroit and 300 Years of Metropolitan Growth" (http://www.semcog.org/Products/pdfs/Detroit300.pdf) .  This gives excellent historical tables and maps of Detroit's population and growth patterns.
68.85.159.84 03:54, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better source for current population counts 

message: Removed from article:
"The Detroit Police Department is also one of at least twelve Police Departments in America that is predominantly African American. While this was reinforced as a means of creating a better relationship with the predominantly African American community since the 1973 election of Coleman Young, Detroit's first black mayor, little progress has been made. In 2000, the justice department had found that the Detroit PD had the highest rate of homicide against African American citizens. Social activists claimed that the only reason for a lack of public outcry and racial rioting is the racial makeup of the department, which many claim is a cameoflouge for causing justifiable homicide."
I suspect that this is partly true, partly NPOV but admit I can't understand some of it at all. Can it be cleaned up? Rmhermen 15:53, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV and police

message: Someone keeps removing the rock artist section and replacing it with a bunch of non-notable (or minorly notable perhaps in one case) local rappers.  When I was reverting I noticed Grand Funk Railroad and ? and the Mysterians were listed as Detroit artists.  GFR was from Flint and ?&M were from Saginaw.  I don't think they really qualify as Detroit artists.  Unless someone can produce a compelling reason for keeping them in the list, I'm going to remove them.--Isotope23 17:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music 

message: How come Metropolitan Detroit have the highest house numbers? (example: 8 Mile Rd - 20700) in Northern Oakland/Maccomb county the house numbers reaches up to 40000's could you explain...
:I'm not certain that Detroit is any different than other cities.  I must confess that i have not given it any thought, but it would seem as though these high numbers are entirely unique to Detroit.  Jtmichcock 20:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Detroit always incremented its numbers between buildings quite a bit more than in other cities, and most communities throughout the tri-county area (Birmingham, Bloomfield, Royal Oak, Ferndale, Pleasant Ridge and everything north of Pontiac are exceptions) maintain the downtown Detroit-centered numbering system all the way through. In Macomb (but not Oakland) it goes all the way to the county line (Bordman Rd., or 38 Mile) which, according to my Streets & Trips, is where 81000 Van Dyke would be. What would be next door to 2045 in, say, Baltimore would be 2047; in Detroit the house would be numbered 2053 or 2055. Most houses in the neighborhood I grew up in on the east side (7 & Gratiot) incremented in 8s, sometimes even 10s. 211.59.191.28 15:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detroit's highest house numbers 

message: The article says St. John's Hospital is a Level 1 trauma center.  However, according to the American College of Surgeons website , Detroit Receiving Hospital and Henry Ford Hospital are the only verified trauma centers in Detroit.  William Beaumont Hospital is another one in the area, but Beaumont is located in Royal Oak, not Detroit.
From the St. John's Hospital website:
:St. John Hospital and Medical Center is designated as a Trauma Center by the Detroit East Medical Control Authority, and is currently in the process of seeking verification as a Level Two Trauma Center by the American College of Surgeons.
Therefore, I am removing St. John's Hospital from the list of Level 1 trauma centers.
 -- Shoffman11 18:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infrastructure / Medicine 

message: I previously wrote that Chaldeans owned ninety percent of the "party stores" in detroit and someone changed this to read convenience stores and indicated party stores parenthically.  A party store is not a convenience store.  Detroit has plent of both and they are both immigrant owned in large part.  However, a party store is a distinct animal, most of its business is in alchohol, lotto tickets and potato chips.  Although one might find a quart of milk in a rear refrigerator in a party store, check the date.  It may have been there a long time.  Jtmichcock 00:28, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Party Stores 

message: Bellin atlas of 1764, or 63 years after the city founding shows the river as La Rivière du Détroit. I believe that it has always been recognized that this is a river like a strait, not a strait in itself. Rmhermen 21:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "De Troit" or "Rivière Détroit"

message: Someone wrote on the main page that Cass Tech attracts students from the suburbs.  I am trying to verify this information and I can't.  Does anyone have any verification?  Jtmichcock 15:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cass Tech High School

message: Through the National Archives, I located a photo of the Detroit Cadillac plant on Clifford.  Photo believed published no late than 1910.  Jtmichcock 18:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Auto Factory Picture

message: I read the various revisions to the "Fashion" section of the article and I had questioned from the outset whether the entry was even noteworthy of inclusion.  More specifically, Detroit doesn't seem to be particularly known for being in the cutting edge on fashions.  I recall reading an article several years ago that disparaged the city's fashion sense as being behind the times.  I specifically remember a derisive comment about how Detroit was the last place in North America where the "Farrah Fawcett-Majors" hair-do could be spotted.
All that said, the article seems to be hovering around making stereotypical comments.  Not close enough where it should be outright deleted, but close enough to where (I believe) it would be justifiable to move the article to the Black culture of Detroit article.  Any feedback?  Jtmichcock 19:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference to Al Wissam jackets is local and correct but the most of the rest is pretty generic U.S. style. Rmhermen 22:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fashions

message: Please add more!
:Fun facts removed. Not only do I doubt the need for such a section - the first two facts I checked were cut-and-pasted off another website. This is a copyright violation. Rmhermen 16:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is a copyright violation to cut-and-paste sections of someone else's work into your own. If you would like to reword these facts and reinsert them you could avoid the copyright issue but I still don't believe them necessary in an encyclopedia article and some of them reppeat content already in the article. Rmhermen 18:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Please note that the usage of "fair use", a U.S.-only legal custom, are not necessarily compatable with the license of a "free" international encyclopedia. We require our source material to be GFDL or public domain but greatly prefer you simply rewrite it yourself. Really we are taking about a couple sentences here. You could easily rewrite in your own words in less time than typing your comments here. Also all edits are saved in the history with the names of the editor - if you suspect a bias, it is easy to check the history to determine who is inserting it. Rmhermen 14:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Note that the last edits to that section were by Pentawing, not Rmhermen. Rmhermen 19:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: How about you?  But I think you need to consider the nature of this project.  The purpose of Wikipedia is to provide a neutral point of view.  It's not a question of being pro- or anti- any topic, it's all supposed to be objective and professional.  "Fun facts" are for tourist brouchures.  I would note that vandals have come onto the page and added blatantly racist materials and these have been quickly deleted by the same people in this discussion.  As to the positive aspects of the city, there are quite a few listed.  There are also quite a few negatives.  Jtmichcock 23:06, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fun facts added

message: *http://www.genealogyimagesofhistory.com/ku-kz.htm
*http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/clarence_darrow/10.html
:please explain? Rmhermen 15:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article seems to indicate that the klan supported a candidate fro mayor and the person lost.  It's not surprising seeing this insofar as the klan was very popular during the era when all this happened, unlike today where it is a small fringe group or pariahs. Jtmichcock 17:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Much less significant than the many Midwest cities were Klan mayors (governors?) were actually elected. Rmhermen 17:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, he served for 6 months, five years after the trial mentioned in the second link above before being recalled. Still not surprising. Rmhermen 16:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Klan Mayor? 

message: There has been an editor who has twice redirected the term "franchise" in the Detroit listing to an exclusive right" article.  In Michigan, as a matter of law, a municipality may not grant an exclusive right to any cable television provider, MCLA 484.3108, so the link inserted is incorrect.  I have asked the editor to restore this back the original term since there is no Wikipedia article on non-excluve franchises and this will have to be sent to a disambiguation page until that article is authored.  Jtmichcock 02:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michigan Cable TV Franchises 

message: Someone edited the Detroit Wonk site into the External links section and it was promptly edited out.  I have utilized this nexus to get information and follow up on items I have submitted to this Article and others.  May I propose that this link be restored?  If there's no serious objections, I will reinstate after an opportunity for discussion.  Jtmichcock 04:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have used it for information, consider adding it as a reference instead of an external link. Rmhermen 04:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, that is good advice (and please link to the specific topic in the blog with a permalink if available). Also, while it is seems to be a reasonably good blog, there are undoubtedly many other deserving blogs. Why pick one over others? Put a box at the top of this talk page describing it as a resource. Or include it somewhere on Wikipedia:WikiProject Michigan. I'd rather not see the External links section turn into a link farm. older ≠ wiser 04:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Looking at the Detroit Wonk site, it appears to me to be a personal blog site with a reasonable amount of advertisements (google ads). To me, the site looks like it provides very little NPOV information regarding the city of Detroit, and the only reason I see that it was added there was to promote someone's personal site. I support the removal of this site from the 'external links' section, and will continue to support it's removal if it were added in the future. Dr. Cash 06:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: http://raywert.blogspot.com/

message: Someone added a "trivia" section to the article. However, such sections are generally frowned upon for city articles and as such it is preferable that the information be placed in other existing sections where possible. The following were under the trivia section:
*Saddam Hussein was given a key to the city in 1980.
*The White Stripes song Lafayette Blues lists many of the French street names in Detroit.
PentawingTalk 03:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia section issues