Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Archive 13

message: HeadleyDown was a large scale sockpuppeteer, who seriously degraded the Neuro-linguistic programming article with virulent POV warfare and heavy duty personal attack between Summer 2005 - June 2006. The final decision is at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming (February 2006). As of 6 June 2006, all POV editors identified in that Arbcom request have been identified as closely connected sock puppets, meatpuppets or sock pupeteers.
;BLOCKS BY MENTORS, SINCE ARBCOM RULING
HeadleyDown blocks:
:* HeadleyDown editing as "Camridge" - blocked 13 Feb (1 hr), blocked 14 Feb (3 hrs), blocked 24 march (24 hr), blocked 22 may (indefinite, sock)
:* HeadleyDown editing as "AliceDeGrey" - blocked 18 April (24 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
:* HeadleyDown editing as "HansAntel" - blocked 6 May (24 hr, later shortened), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
:* HeadleyDown editing as "Bookmain" - blocked 15 May (24 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sock)
:* HeadleyDown editing as himself - blocked 5 March (1 hr), blocked 2 May (48 hr), blocked 5 June (indefinite, sockmaster)
Also blocked (and in many cases suspected to be sockpuppets of HeadleyDown):
:* "Flavius vanillus" - blocked 15 Feb (1 hr), 15 feb (6 hrs), 26 feb (24 hrs), 26 feb (extended 48 hrs), 26 Feb (extended again 1 wk), 1 April (2 wks), 2 April (indefinite block)
:* "JPLogan" - blocked 5 March (12 hrs), 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:* "DaveRight" - blocked 23 March (3 hr), 23 march (24 hr), 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:* "Medius Maximus" - blocked 17 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:* "Addsquad" - 18 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:* "LemonMnM" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:* "Oblio Yu HK" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:* "Figleaf Riverdance" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:* "Superkyewl" - 24 April (indefinite, confirmed to be a sock)
:(See: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans)
;ARBCOM ENFORCEMENT PROVISIONS:
:1) If a user banned from editing under this decision does so, they may be briefly blocked ... After 5 blocks the maximum block shall increase to one year. (Passed 9-0) WP:RFArb/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Enforcement
user:HeadleyDown has been blocked by mentors 8 times since Arbcom under his own name and various sockpuppets. It is likely most of the other socks were also him, in which case it could be up to around 20 times. 
;ARBCOM AND MENTOR COMMENTS:
* user:David Gerard] states "There may be other throwaway socks involved, email me if you have a list. Unfortunately, they guy is on an ISP with fast-changing DHCP addresses..." 
* user:Katefan0 stated to user:HeadleyDown: "A recent checkuser  indicates that you and Camridge are editing from the same IP. I anticipate that you will protest that you and Camridge are indeed different people who happen to live in the same place and have the same interests. I find this argument unconvincing -- two sarcastic friends at a Hong Kong university with perfect English and enormous NLP libraries, AND a bias against NLP, AND you found your way to Wikipedia within a month of one another. Not to mention all the other sockpuppetry that's come out of a certain Hong Kong university just recently. So I'll be blunt: which account would you like to use going forward? The other will be blocked."
* user:Woohookitty, the last mentor to resign, stated on WP:RFCU: "I am a mentor on the Neuro-linguistic programming. The above 4 seem to be working together to try to get around the restrictions put upon them by the NLP arbcom decision. Essentially, one of the non affected people is reverting and then the affected people are editing. Any help would be appreciated."
* user:Katefan0, another resigned mentor, commented on LemonMnM, Oblio Yu HK, Figleaf Riverdance and Superkyewl: "Hong Kong sockfarm checkuser'ed and blocked"
Posted for the record. FT2 (Talk) 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary of case, including useful links and quotes

message: 926 KB total. That's. 9. 2. 6. :) I'm going to erase the workshop page and redirect it back to here. If we ever want to recreate it, we can. As Comaze and Greg can attest to, we didn't really have any progress anyway. --Woohookitty(meow) 12:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And you stopped us before we got to 1MB, how could you? --Comaze 13:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you like to get slapped? :) I'm kidding. Well if you include all of the archives, it's way over 1MB. --Woohookitty(meow) 13:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Our maybe get scrached? :D Voice-of-AllTalk 16:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I archived the workshop talk page 

message: Will this have to have indef semi-pro? To bad you coudn't range block IPs from editing a certain article. Maybe a VoABot could .split('.') the names of IPs and check the last blocks for range combinations and autorevert, I always though something like that would be interesting...Voice-of-AllTalk 16:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semipro? 

message: I'm concerned that it might end up becoming a "soft" article, lacking focus or balance if "stuff gets added back" at whim. I know that's the approach I thought would work, but I don't know if it will now. 
What I'd like to suggest is, can we get it to a reasonable balance, at least enough to present the main facts and main criticisms, and then cease working on the main article and instead open a workshop + talk page and look carefully at how it's structured and what should go in its sections? 
I have set up an overview structure of the article as it stands, at /Workshop, for editing and discussion. Hopefully we can flesh out what the article should look like, and then start to fill it in. FT2 (Talk) 17:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * First major clean-up. History of NLP moved to its own article, sensible wikipedia-style section and link replaces it :) FT2 (Talk) 22:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: * Second major clean-up. "Users" section created, so that claims (whether of use or scepticism) are not merely left as hearsay, allowing users to judge the places NLP is used for themselves. FT2 (Talk) 01:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: * Third major cleanup - can someone please sort out the "fundamentals" which is basically a copy & dump from "Principles of NLP"? See below. Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 03:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: * Fourth major cleanup - I'm working on a much needed article, NLP and science. I think this one will actually not be hard to do, since it's pretty much a matter of "list research, summarize a balanced view of all sides, and comment". But it needs careful work. Once I've put in what I can that is fair, that I know about, I'd like some help to ensure all sides are fully and fairly represented and cited. That's not yet, but "soon". You can see on that stub, the outline I'm working with. FT2 (Talk) 03:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Remember to avoid rhetorical questions. Wikipedia is not a research journal. We're not here to "prove" theories. Secondly, the article has "Anecdotal evidence from users". That is unencyclopedic. Again. We're not here to prove theories. We're also not here to give "real world" examples. Again, that reads like a research paper. The "Is NLP a science?" section needs to revamped. I have no problem with an article looking at the relationship between science and NLP, but we're not here to prove theories or to put forward theories. You have to make it sound more authoritative sounding. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *I made the one section less rhetorical by removing the questions and putting it into a format we generally use. It still reads too much like a research paper in parts. It needs to be "dumbed down" a tad. But I'll wait to do anything else until you are done, FT2. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Wanted to add that your other changes are good, FT2. Very good actually. I always felt like this article should be split into several different articles with the main article summarizing what's in the offshoot articles. --Woohookitty(meow) 12:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes. As I said, I'll wait until you've added everything you want to the NLP and science article before I edit it. Just a warning though. I'll be editing it alot. :) Just need to change the tone from college essay to encyclopedia. I won't change what you are saying...just how its said. --Woohookitty(meow) 10:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think we could merge 2.1 Foundational assumptions and 2.2 Presuppositional beliefs. "2.8 Other Concepts, Models and Techniques" could also be merged, by introducing and linking to them from other sections. --Comaze 02:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you? Thanks! FT2 (Talk) 02:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll do my best, but I'm a techie not an academic, so if you could copyedit my work I'd appreciate it. --Comaze 02:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comaze - I may get involved in that as well. There ARE NLP presuppositions which are separate from fundamentals... though currently those 2 sections are synonymous. I may elaborate on presuppositions. Is that okay? Greg 05:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Greg, I've posted my first (early) draft of the principles / fundamentals section... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Reconstruction#Replacement_of_Fundaments_section_.28working_title.2C_Principles.29 - you're welcome to edit, however you wish.. Just let me know if you are working on it. --Comaze 10:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Development 

message: I was looking at the intro, wondering if it really was as smooth as it could be. Do people like any aspects of this?
:Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a set of techniques, axioms and beliefs developed around 1973 by Richard Bandler and professor John Grinder, in examining why certain world-renowned psychotherapists were so effective. Rather than explore this question by forming theories, Bandler and Grinder sought to study directly what exactly the therapists were doing in their sessions that enabled them to obtain such results, and to categorize and systematize it. 
:Based on these observations, NLP teaches people how to observe and utilize patterns, and to adapt their approach and respond to others in a high quality and skilled manner, as did the original, very effective therapists drawn upon. It was metaphorically described by the original developers as "therapeutic magic" and 'the study of the structure of subjective experience". 
:NLP is predicated upon the assumption that peoples' behaviors have structure and purpose. The term itself summarizes how mind and neurology (neuro), language patterns (linguistic), and the organization of human perception and cognition into systemic patterns (programming) interact, and how they give rise to (and are influenced by) subjective reality and human behaviors.  NLP focusses upon a wide range of areas beyond its core area of communication, including therapy, coaching, skills analysis ("modeling"), negotiation, personal development, and allergy and trauma change.
:(Last paragraph on criticisms, as at present)
I've drawn on Druckman to rewrite the description. Is it any good? FT2 (Talk) 22:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds good, but may be selling NLP and not neutral enough. As for the old intro - I was going to question the existing "NLP was influenced by ideas of the New Age" (which ideas are we talking about!?) and "primarily personal development" as most NLP I've seen is working with 2 people... yet it is for the personal development of the client. Greg 16:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro reword? 

message: 4 new sub-articles added, and their statuses:
# History of NLP -- development finished, discuss on its talk page or edit it, as normal.
# List of users of Neuro-linguistic programming -- development finished, discuss on its talk page or edit it, as normal.
# List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming -- From "NLP and science" so that the "studies" section of that article doesn't get insanely long. Open to editing and discussing as normal, some sections incomplete, sketchy or not drafted. Main article structure done. Generally supportive research added. Cognitive/neurological research omitted and to be added (have research, needs summarizing). Accurate representations of any critical studies omitted at present as I'm not convinced I have an accurate representation of them. There is a strong negative view, the studies reporting it need fairly representing. Please edit and discuss this article and help fix that weakness.
# NLP and science -- much of it is done, but unfair to draft the summary sections for this until the above article ("List of studies...") is more complete.
In brief, all 4 of the above can be edited, completed and discussed as normal, in their own right. FT2 (Talk) 00:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also updated: The mess in "rep systems", "modalities" and "submodalities" now mostly re-cleaned up, see Representational systems (NLP) and Submodality (NLP). Needs cleanup still in some sections. Woohookitty, you might like that intro, it actually explains what rep systems are about in NLP, not just "technical jargon" :P :) FT2 (Talk) 12:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, you don't get what's happening here. We want critics. We just don't want more meatpuppets that have come here via the University of Hong Kong skeptics club. --Woohookitty(meow) 10:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: On the project page? A list there under "things to do" of "pages needing attention" (and why) would be a good idea. FT2 (Talk) 08:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recently added sub-articles open for editing 

message: I have problems with List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming. It's just simply not needed. And it'd be impossible to maintain. It's simply not necessary to have a listing of every study done of NLP. And it reads like a bibliography for a college essay. There isn't another article on the site like it and I just don't see the need for it. We have a reference list for this article and we're going to for all of them. We don't need anything additional. We're not here to make arguments about how "valid" NLP is. We're here to write an encyclopedia article on it. Readers can make up their own mind by going through the References. We don't need anything beyond that. I really think it should be deleted. --Woohookitty(meow) 17:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia has many such "list of..." articles. They aren't intended to make a case, of "prove" anything, but to provide useful source materials for others who may be interested. A large proportion aren't expected (or able) to be complete. There are "list of..." articles of everything from List of open source software packages, List of television personalities, List of algorithms, List of neologisms on The Simpsons, List of portmanteaux, List of digital library projects, List of biomolecules, List of trivia lists, List of family separation research articles... Research into NLP (for and against) is not that well listed anywhere, and is clearly valuable as information to those with an interest in the field. In what sense is it not encyclopedic to have an article listing known studies (of all sorts, not just "for" or "against") in a subject? FT2 (Talk) 21:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are talking apples and oranges, FT2. The lists you listed are lists for general knowledge. That's what encyclopedias are for. A list of sources of NLP is not general knowledge. It's essentially a very long article that consists of a bibliography with a long reference list. And it's not just a bibliography. It's a bibliography with commentary, which I know is going to be disputed by the anti NLP side. It's unencyclopedic in that it's simply not an encyclopedia article. You are never going to find an article in an encyclopedia that is entirely a list of sources. If you see anything approaching that, it's going to be a reference section and we already have that in this article. So it's redundant. It's not needed because we already have reference lists in other articles. And it's unencyclopedic in that you are never going to see just a listing of sources as a separate article in an encyclopedia. That's what reference lists at the end of articles is used for. Read Wikipedia:Listcruft. --Woohookitty(meow) 02:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. I sort of see the point you're making. I was looking more at WP:LIST, "Information: The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list..." It's hard to see a list of studies as not being that. As I understand it, part of what you're saying is, if a study is discussed in NLP and science it'll be footnoted there, and if it isn't then it doesn't need mentioning, so a list would be unnecessary in any event. Is that about right, or am I missing something more fundamental? FT2 (Talk) 05:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you've got most of my point. It's just not needed. And I think that having it just opens us up to more rancor and fighting and we've had enough of that. :) --Woohookitty(meow) 07:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it be okay to leave it as a reference article for a while, as we clean the field up? It's a bona fide list of sources at least, and will serve well to use as source material for criticism and citation sections (if someone adds the "against" articles), and its value can be judged by that. If it gets hostility I would agree, but it's hard to see people legitimately objecting to a list of research papers as "invalid" or "biased". I don't think it meets AFD criteria... though obviously I can see where you are coming from. can we leave it a while, and come back to it? It's a useful source while all this is going on... and would be more so if the "negative" articles were also cited for reference too. FT2 (Talk) 12:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually FT2, I'd recommend moving it to your userspace. Articles like that should probably be in an userspace. If you don't know how to do that, let me know. You basically just go to your userspace, add a / to the end of the address and then add the name of the article and then just create the article. I can do it for you if you don't know what I mean. --Woohookitty(meow) 08:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of studies on Neuro-linguistic programming]] 

message: I have known Steve Hassan for 17 years and have worked with him on a number of exit counselling cases (he does not wish to be called a "deprogrammer" so that part needs to be changed).  The portrayal of his views on NLP in this article seem misleading and strongly imply that he actively endorses it and built his model of exit counseling centered around NLP when this is not the case.  As he states in his book (I will add this reference with a direct quote to the article) he studied NLP in the early 80s but he has concerns, not only about the fact it is being used by cult leaders, but also by the way NLP is being marketed.  What he said was that he went back and studied some of NLPs sources (e.g., Satir, Baetson, Erickson, etc.) and is now basing his work on those people, and others who had nothing to do with NLP.  To make this more objective, perhaps the best way to resolve this would be to directly quote what Hassan actually wrote.  I have his book and will look up the exact quote, cite it and put it into the article.
:It's been removed. --Woohookitty(meow) 09:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Steve Hassan Reference Possibly Misleading

message: As discussed above, the article reconstruct is coming on well.
An article on Wikipedia starts by explaining the field itself. So the bulk of the reconstructed article is an explanation (without judgement) of what NLP is. Wikipedia isn't a book, so it will explain but leave a lot of detail out. However there's still a lot to cover so it will take a fair bit of space to do so. 
A major issue with previous articles on NLP is that it's a methodology within a philosophy/worldview. I've given the worldview its own section which has worked really well. I've also tried to write an effective summary article, not just list jargon and soundbites. About 3/4 of the sections are written so far, so it's finally come together nicely. There's quite a lot of footnoted material, as opposed to "just cites". The current outline looks something like this:
# Intro (what it is, where it came from/what it's about, how it's seen)
#* 1st para -- NLP studies and models how people perceive their life and how to work with the underlying cognitive and emotional processes at a practical level. (That's what NLP *is about*). It has a broad structure. List some common mainstream areas used.
#* 2nd para -- *Based* on therapist models, B&G *concluded* that self taught skills and approaches were responsible for their abilities, that these could be summarized and passed on, and that inner experience could be known via behaviors rather than via a theory. Result was called "NLP", meaning the neuro/language/programs which seemed influential.
#* 3rd para -- as at present
# Overview of NLP
#* Definition and scope of NLP (What NLP is, its aims and approaches, how it views humans and human reality, what its training is about and what it's focussed upon)
#* Meaning of term "Neuro-linguistic programming"
#* Historical background of NLP
#* Influences
#* Self-descriptions and quotes
#* No one "correct version" of NLP
# NLP attitudes and worldview
#* NLP's world view (Subjective view, Human nature (unconscious mind, learning, etc), Systems view, Meaning and context in communication, Form and content, present/future orientation)
#* Examples of some common aphorisms (sayings, principles, presuppositions; bulletted only)
# NLP concepts and methods 
#* Basic structural concepts (Representational systems and submodalities, Language patterns, Strategies, Perceptual positions, Reframing, Anchoring, Modelling, Other (chunking, timeline, logical levels etc), Outdated concepts)
#* Working approaches and methods (Strategic / outcome oriented, Rapport, Elegance, Feedback and flexibility, Ecology and ethics (including misuse), NLP's approach to clinical conditions)
#* Examples(A handful of basic techniques named and described, 1 or 2 lines each - V/K, swish, reframe, etc)
# NLP as a field of knowledge 
#* Taxonomy (classification) and connected subjects(Where NLP fits into human knowledge)
#* NLP as a discipline(Conduct and standards supervision, professional bodies, training structure... and issues concerning the frequent lack of these)
#* Distribution and applications(How NLP is encountered and distributed, including mainstream and dubious approaches)
#* Controversies(Cult use, Mass marketing and unethical promotion, Lack of critical self-evaluation)
# Evaluating NLP
#* Researching NLP
#* Scientific view
#* Users' anecdotal views
#* Skeptical view(Skeptics concerns that NLP – at least, as commonly presented – shares too many features with other pseudoscientific subjects for comfort: - New Age, own terminology, either poorly explained or psychobabble, not yet positively accepted by consensus of major bodies of clinical or neurological scientists, frequently marketed and applied commercially in dubious or 'fringe' styles)
# See also
# External links
# References
FT2 (Talk | email) 02:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reconstruct of article 

message: I noticed that this article has been unprotected. Please watch this article closely as it has been prone to madness in the past. --Woohookitty(meow) 12:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotection 

message: I made a first stab at reordering the arguments in the "Criticism" section, bringing together all of the arguments on the basis of science, of mainstream psychotherapy, of religion, etc. Where it was possible, I consolidated various citations from the same author into one paragraph. There's a lot more to do along these lines! -- Shunpiker 19:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you should Neuro-linguistically program yourself for better English. --Gigantic Killerdong 20:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: A bunch of testimonials... you mean like every pro-NLP source? Snicker. --Gigantic Killerdong 20:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up [[Neuro-linguistic programming#Criticism|Criticism]] 

message: The links between the study of NLP and elevated suicide rates hasn't been mentioned at any point. NLP is shortly going to be banned along with Scientology and a bunch of similar cult/con artist types in Ireland. I know of a number of cases where Scientologists drained sick people of their cash and then removed them from treatment until they were so weakened that even with medical care they died. NLP 'trainers' have trained a lot of people who go on to commit suicide shortly after leaving the course. They would debate that they train a lot of people who are so called 'three time losers' but if that were the case there wouldn't be a task force assigned to their investigation.
NLPs close relationship to hypnotism and ease of use by con artists has led to many tragedies and any number of criminal cases. Hopefully the ban in Ireland can be extended to the EU and the Scientologists will soon follow.
83.70.226.196 00:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NLP and suicide 

message: I've just added a link to the NLP Research Centre featuring a recent review of the NLP literature to date. I had some involvement with the technical side of building the database. But the actually research was completed by a researcher in cognitive science. At the same time I have removed some external links to sites that did not contain any referenced; unreferenced articles are inherently unreliable. I'd like to suggest that we look to reduce the number of references on this page and replace with scholarly references. It might be a good idea to add a few more links to the industry associations. Also, are all those "See Also" links necessary; many are only barely related to NLP. --Comaze 08:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alan. There are differing "NLP claims" or in NPOV terms, multiple definitions of NLP. Some versions are more like folk psychology than others. Preference should be given to scholarly sources in summarising the various definitions of NLP and its uses.  Some applications have limited support in the academic literature. While NLP has become popular in education and management training, some psychologists have raised concerns about the lack of scientific support. Perhaps the focus of the topic "NLP and science" would probably best be described as "theoretical basis of NLP" then we could go into the scientific, psychological or experimental basis, or its lack thereof. --Comaze 00:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Arguably, science can generally be given more weight on wikipedia than psychological or evidence from popular NLP books. However, what is more important is that we make an effort for all significant views to be represented fairly. I don't see how inserting text from past disputed versions of this article is bringing the article closer feature article candidacy. I've made an attempt at rewriting the scope to bring it more in line with this goal. --Comaze 07:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Alan, I've started to notice recent academic monographies on psychotherapeutic approaches, cognitive science, and synergetics that include sections describing theoretical structure of NLP. These are being published even in Russian. Articles on NLP as a phenomenon that gives some insights into the structure of communication are included in some recent psychology encyclopaedias. It seems to me that the status of NLP as a scientific subject is a matter of time. Or perhaps, on the basis of NLP and other insights, a purely scientific approach will be developed, if necessary. For me NLP represents only three letters used to describe some interesting findings from different approaches, and it seems so unfortunate that more attention is attracted to these letters, not to the structure of this yet protoscientific approach. Eli the Barrow-boy 23:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Dom, as far as my study of NLP goes, it all depends on the trainer and his training qualities. How he/she develops interrelationships within the group, or, to put it correctly, how effectively he sets the scene for interrelationships to flow. I can tell nothing about the person and the group where you had training, however what I can share from my point of view is that in NLP it is presupposed to respect or at least acknowledge other person's map—or adaptation patterns to the world, if you prefer. And the point of NLP training (in NLP-Practitioner-like courses) isn't that it has to destroy your adaptive balance with the world and crush your effective adaptive patterns. At first, I didn't understand this point that in that kind of training they only give you new tools to explore, and if you don't find them effective you always may stick with your preferable effective strategies. Of course, one needs to consider obvious limitations of group trainings. I think the arcticle will become more informative on this account sooner or later. Eli the Barrow-boy 22:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update article with latest research 

message: It seems somehow ironic to this editor that the proponents of a treatment called "Neuro-'linguistic' programming" communicate in such terrible English. Food for thought. --Gigantic Killerdong 19:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, many talented writers were scared off. Hopefully we can enourage some to return and contribute. When the article is up to cratch we'll encourage copy editors to clean it up. --Comaze 05:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, I've sorted out the English in the Commmon patterns section. At the same time, I've improved the NPOV language in that section. The rest of the article needs work. --Comaze 01:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm current rewriting that techniques section in paragraph style. By the way, inserting that section on "NLP as a New Age approach" at the top of the article raises the NPOV flags. Some of your other edits, for example to Scope were fine. --Comaze 10:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I can see where you're going with that move now. Can you have a look at the techniques/ritual section again. I think that ritual is POV as it is rarely used to describe the techniques in the academic literature. It appears to overemphasise the spiritual, or otherwise flakey aspects of NLP. Similarly to use of "a god's eye view" in the current description of perceptual positions has the same problem, so does the description of circles of excellence. While there is only a few hundred articles on NLP indexed in psychinfo it does gives a reliable indication of what is considered to be the "core" techniques and terminology. Otherwise it will be very difficult to come to some agreement over terminology because of the many different schools. --Comaze 12:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: AlanBarnet, You have raised a number of issues that I want to bring up here in relation to the patterns/techniques section and more generally to promote reliable sources in the article. Firstly, ritual is not generally used in the psychological literature to describe NLP patterns/techniques therefore claiming that ritual is basic psychology is simply not valid. It is clearly skeptical POV. Technique or pattern would be more neutral. Similarly, emphasising the spiritual aspects pushing a similar POV. Again please use neutral language. Furthermore, the psychinfo database is trusted by most university and psychology departments. Why claim it is unreliable? The peer-reviewed articles it indexes are more reliable than any book on NLP found on the skeptics site or in a flakey new age section. It seems like a straw man argument is being set up by defining NLP in terms of new age flakes. Self published books are certainly not as reliable as peer reviewed journal articles, for instance, the online Dilts reference is self published, and would not hold as much weight as a peer reviewed source. NLP University and "American Pacific University" are both non-accredited. I bring this up to point out that there are many unsupported claims made in the books and marketing of NLP. Some trainers even claim to have PhDs from non-accredited universities. It is then most important to give preference peer-reviewed or only those NLP works that are highly cited in the peer review literature like "Structure of Magic Vol 1 and Vol 2", Frogs into Princes, etc. If we can agree on peer-reviewed articles as a strategy then we can begin to make some progress. Otherwise, any work on the article that does not use reliable sources will have to be revised at a later date. --Comaze 00:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Your information on NLP university press is incorrect. It is a self-published source because "NLP University Press" is owned and operated by Robert Dilts. And he is the primary author. Also NLP University is not an accredited university so don't be fooled into thinking it is reliable source of information. Again, ritual is not generally used to described the techniques used of NLP. It has pejorative connotations. --Comaze 03:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NLP and linguistic developement

message: I believe that Juan Matus of Carlos Castaneda refered to Neuro programming in his concept or teaching of 'Not doing' and 'internal dialogue'. Words and languages are percieved or understood differently influenced by internal prejudice and 'internal dialogues' which maintain a fixed view of the world. We see what we want to see and our own internal programming and scripts and act accordingly. Stop the internal dialogue and you will be able to see/percieve more, and broaden your thingking. Since I can't find an official authority to support this and this is a personal reflection, I can't place this in the article.--Jondel 06:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In Turtles all the way down (Grinder & Delozier, 2000) and Whispering in the Wind (Grinder & Bostic St Clair, 2001) there is reference to internal silence in that it is important for achieving states of external attention with minimal conscious attention. Grinder refers to this as "first access". It is required for perceptual positions, and NLP modeling exercises. Check the other literature to see if it is included reliable third party sources. --Comaze 09:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Juan Matus

message: "Typically peer reviewed publications are considered to be the most reliable, with established professional publications next."WP:Reliable sources I want to begin to checking all the sources running reference checks on this article systematically. When this is complete, we can ask for a fact and reference check. Sources where there are multiple steps to publication, such as fact checking and editorial oversight, are more reliable, other things being equal, than those without these procedures. If you can help, please let me know and we can assign different sections to each other. --Comaze 00:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact and reference check 

message: Well, I just had a checkup on the recent changes and reversions. My journalist suspicions got pretty much confirmed when users like 58.179.189.82 have shown a severe reluctance to admit well sourced facts about theory. Also Comaze, your latest changes have led me to believe there will be a very much uphill struggle to present anything vaguely related to facts as the are or even NPOV policy.  You made some very odd changes to the article that look just like some kind of promotion and business bias. I noticed an authority above in the discussion page ( the user Woohookitty) who complained about similar edits and I’m not at all surprised he got sick of editing here.  I will explain: I looked up the Devilly paper, and the Beyerstein credentials. They are both professors. That is the job they do and that is their bias. If you can find any reliable info about them using scientism then post it up for discussion. Devilly talks about NLP as a power therapy and says it is pseudoscience. In the edit about German education and scientology, you say you were unable to verify the source. Why? Babelfish is easy to use, and the term scientology is clear already. You removed the Kelly ref and gave no reason for why you think the section is unbalanced. Claiming unbalance is not a reason to remove information. You will have to do better than that. Kelly is a reliable book source and it is pretty much confirmed by the rest of the article. You changed New Age therapies to alternative therapies. Why? The whole article is about the New Age. Your reluctance to have such information presented smacks of strong promoter bias.  You cut Druckman’s line - NLP has been found to be most ineffective concerning influence/persuasion and modeling of skills -  and it is very clear that Druckman says it is uneffective for influence skills. Your deletion there is very bad and again smacks of promoter bias.  You added Druckmans comment - While Druckman found little support many many aspects of NLP, they comments that the merit of modeling required further investigation Scientific review in the early 1980s finding that modeling (p.138) -  but that is highly inaccurate considering NLP has been dropped since then in such research.  I noticed the later Von Bergen paper says NLP has been dropped by Druckman completely from the research. Devilly emphasizes this kind of fact saying the research has come and gone and only the belief remains. It’s a new age belief system rather than just an unsupported talk therapy.  With so many hides going on the only thing to do to make the editing work is to revert all of your changes.  Sorry, but your bias has become very clear now.  If you are going to work at all on this article you are going to have to tread far more carefully. AlanBarnet 13:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry that German ref does not count as a verifiable source. And it was misleading. There are many other misleading sources used on the article. Let's assume good faith here. I have attempted to make edits with guidelines.  or  tag to the disputed text. Also you have misrepresented Devilly in your comments. Devilly cites Sharpley, otherwise it is simply opinion and should really be excluded under NPOV. Now, I don't usually do this but under the circumstances I am going to revert back to my version. I'd appreciate it if you mark the specific text you disagree with rather than blanket revert, you will find that on the whole it is an improvement on the article. --Comaze 14:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Excuse me. Please stop reverting. I'm in the middle of a major fact and reference check. --Comaze 14:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not going to engage in any revert war. I did not delete any information. Nor did I set out to skew any reliable information. Rather I based my changes upon checking the references. I made notes for each change in each edit. Nonetheless, I will check and revise my edits before posting again. If you blanket revert again, then we'll have to engage in dispute resolution. Let's try to resolve these issues first. --Comaze 03:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biases noted 

message: Ok Im going to make an effort to sort this article out. I know there is pressure to make a promo booklet here and I will make an effort to clear that problem up. Just looking at the kind of argument that the promo booklet editors use it is easy to see what info they don't want in the article. Unfortunately that looks exactly like the info that will make the article right again. Lilienfeld seems to be a major player in the scientific line. If anyone has his book refs or quotes they will do well here. There are some presented above in discussion and I will check them out online wherever possible. AlanBarnet 14:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lilienfeld does not display a "normal scientific viewpoint". They take a hard nose scientific stance toward any talk therapy, that includes all psychotherapies. Besides Wikipedia is not written from a scientific point of view. It is written from a neutral point of view. --Comaze 02:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sort out article 

message: As per my edit comments I made changes to the "techniques" section or what was called patterns/rituals. I removed the pejorative connotations such as banish, ritual, gods eye, chakras, floating back, and replaced with neutral language. --Comaze 03:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately all of those changes were reverted: []--Comaze 20:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll keep working on that section. I've added an undue weight banner on that section for now. I'll add some more statements from peer reviewed psychological literature, and neutralise any promotional language. If you disagree with any of the statements please add the request quote tag. --Comaze 04:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Comaze, you are doing a great job. Please ignore anyone who threatens to stalk you on wikipedia. They will be banned for stalking in due course anyway. 58.178.144.203 05:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That version AlanBarnet has paste in is somewhat cynical. Even if you think NLP is New Age pseudoscience or alternative therapy, it still has to be presented as plausible. I'll revise it, again. Any suggestions / ideas ? --Comaze 14:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change to techiques section (or Patterns or Rituals) 

message: * Circle of Excellence: Standing in an imaginary magic circle, filling it with symbols and archetypes of choice, in order to banish negativity and enhance positive thinking for use in any NLP situation.Ready.R. and Burton.K (2004)  NLP for Dummies  John Wiley & Sons ISBN 0764570285 p.250
Is this a reliable source for describing the Circle of Excellence? Has it been interpreted correctly by the editor?
I was somewhat confused by this description, because it didn't match the information that I had. I don't have all the books at hand right now, however a quick googling for "circle of excellence" showed this result  with a nice description of what it is:The Circle of Excellence is a basic self-anchoring process originally developed by Dr. John Grinder co-creator of NLP. Circle of Excellence can be used to elicit, create and stabalise desired states.The point is that the Circle of Excellence technique isn't about magic, it is about anchoring resources (in terms of NLP). Eli the Barrow-boy 00:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circle of Excellence etc 

message: I'm going to make some effort towards fixing the references. For whatever reason (debris from an edit war?), many of the references are currently similar to...
*62.	^ a b c d (1990 p.30)
*63.	^ a b (1997 page 291)
*64.	^ a b c d
*65.	^
...which aren't much use. Addhoc 17:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thankyou Addhoc. We need to ensure that your changes are not lost when people make edits. I will also clean up the references as I check work on different sections of the article. --Comaze 20:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Hi folks,
I'd like to help improve the history and development section. I'd like the section to reflect the growth, spread, controversy and diversity that is so especially fascinating about NLP. In order to do that I'm wondering if someone can point me to any historical edits of the article that attempt this approach to telling the history of NLP in all it's grotty glory. My first guess approximation would be section titles like:
- 1970's (therapists, hypnosis, new age philosophy)
- 1980's (growth, spread, new developers, scientific assessment)
- 1990's (divisions, controversy, marketing, etc)
- 2000's (new fields, government regulation, legal actions, core techniques)
Any improvements? ideas?
If anyone has the motivation to start writing something along those lines, I'd be able to chip in when I have time. 58.179.183.152 12:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main article is for general overview, so unfortunately it is not possible to fit everything in. However there is History of neuro-linguistic programming, and you may find it interesting to improve it in first way. The article mentioned does need improvement. Eli the Barrow-boy 18:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, as Woohoo said just before he left, there is alot of repeated content, with little attempt at introducing, or linking different ideas. For example, there are block quotes with no introduction. There is also very little cohesion within paragraphs and even less flow between them. We need to work on the structure of paragraphs. A good place would be to develop the topic sentences of each. Also there should be one idea per paragraph. Many paragraphs seem to be a patchwork of fact and opinion. 58.179.183.152's suggestion will insert some much needed structure. At the same time, I think the history should be short and link to the subpage for more detail. --Comaze 11:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the other similar articles have history at the top, then definitions or principles. Have a look at article structure of Hypnosis or Psychology --Comaze 12:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok. What do you think of the history section now? any comments or suggestions? What about the 1990s section? --Comaze 11:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History and development 

message: Though the theme is still strong in the article I've cut this extract to here:
These empirical studies and review papers Platt, G. (2001) [NLP - No longer plausible? http://www.sueknight.co.uk/Publications/Articles/NLP_Plausible.htm] Training Journal (magazine) have given NLP a negative assessment, that there is lacking scientific support for many of NLP's assertions and claimed efficacies .
There is far too many falsified citations and quotes being found in the article to allow this summary to stand. When we have rectified things they may not support this summary. When we have finished weeding the fabricated quotes and citations an appropriate summary can be reinserted. All good. 58.178.144.203 23:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me. We also need some way of distinguishing between high impact peer reviewed sources, and the somewhat less reliable sources. Some statements are written in an exaggerated tabloid style. We need to make sure that we also remove any promotional style descriptions of NLP. --Comaze 11:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Science summary 

message: Hi folks. I find the following statement formats quite acceptable:
 '...NLP is at times criticized as pseudoscientific...'
 '...NLP is criticized by {person description} {person X} as pseudoscientific...'
 '...NLP is criticized by {geeky internet blogger} {Fred Smith} as pseudoscientific...'
However, the following:
 '...NLP is criticized as pseudoscientific...'
Is an inacceptable use of the superlative degree and is obviously not verifiable. To avoid these kind of statements should be especially obvious for anyone claiming to have a background in journalism (which I doubt). So please leave proper scoping and contextualising statements, especially avoiding nonsense edit summaries like "removing vaguery". Statements of degree and contrast are useful (like "at times" "however" etc) and create an obvious context of flow when connecting fundamentally disparate statements. It is anal and beligerent to delete every adjective, like some kind of vigilante autistic. 58.178.103.26 00:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This will help reduce the black and white thinking that has crept into the page. Characterising the biases of sources is a necessary part of NPOV especially for criticism. There still remains there bald statements, or block quotes with no introduction or transition. I believe the authors in question may have been trying to avoid argument by just making statements with no context. Unfortunately this has been at the cost of context, logical flow and cohesion. The Claims to science is just a jumble of unlinked sentences. It has no logical flow. --Comaze 12:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vagueries, Superlative degree, and Proper Attribution 

message: Hi Comaze. I prefered the previous layout for the Reception of NLP section. I would prefer long titles like "Lack of empirical evidence in controlled studies" to simply be "Controlled studies" or "Empirical evidence". The section titled "Promising 'power therapies'" doesn't make sense to me as a subtitle of "Reception of NLP". There's a few other issues with headings also. The section as a whole would probably get by with 3 or 4 subtitles, instead of around 8. I like the main sub heading "Scientific Analysis" or "Scientific Review." Still I can see it's a work in progress, I hope it flows more when you're done. 58.179.175.151 06:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. I was using those headline to attempt to the current content in order to sort it out. Please comment again when I'm done. --Comaze 08:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientific Analysis 

message: He was at it for over a year with his continuous POV Warrioring, a relentless attempt to present not an readable overview of what NLP is or claims to be but instead an article that conformed to his 'NLP is pseudoscience/fraudulent/cultish' POV. He was banned and banned and banned sockpuppet, after sock puppet after sock puppet only to keep on coming. Is anyone surprised he's back as 'AlanBarnet' making the same POV changes to the same sections using the same quotes then offering the same denials? Let's keep on top of his POV Warrioring and keep pointing it out...
: Clean Version: . Some reviews have characterized NLP as mass-marketed psychobabble
: NEW POV AlanBarnet Revision:  Reviews have characterized NLP as mass-marketed psychobabble
:: All reviews Alan/HeadleyDown? Why get rid of the 'some' if your not tryng to POV Warrior?
: Clean Balnced Version: These "power therapies" have been criticised for lacking substantive clinical support.. Devilly (2005) raised similar concerns for psychology and psychiatry.Grant J. Devilly (2005) Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry Vol.39 p.437 Nonetheless NLP is used or suggested as an approach by some mental health bodies, including the National Phobics Society of Great Britain.Cite web: National Phobics Society of Great Britain: List of treatments and help MIND,Cite Web:Mental Health Promotions: How to Assert Yourself(PDF) USU: Student Health and Wellness Center,Cite Web: USU The Student Health and Wellness Center: What are Eating Disorders? the British Stammering Association, the Center for Development & Disability at the University of New Mexico Center for autism,Cite Web: Center for Development & Disability at the University of New Mexico Center for autism and Advocates of Child Abuse SurvivorsCite Web: Advocates of Child Abuse Survivors: Counselling and therapy.
: New POV AlanBarnet Version:  hese "power therapies" have been criticised for lacking substantive clinical support.. Devilly (2005) raised similar concerns for psychology and psychiatry.Grant J. Devilly (2005) Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry Vol.39 p.437
:: AlanBarnet Just wipes out the balanced nature of the article to enforce his POV view. Anything indicating and validity or acceptence to NLP MUST simply be deleted, or marginilized.
: Clean Version: Research reviews suggested that the techniques and underlying theory may even be untestable.. Moreover subsequent peer-reviewed psychological and experimental research in various disciplines has been sporadic.
: New AlanBarnet Version: Uh Oh. AlanBarnet just deletes the inconvenient cited facts.
:: Why delete that AlanBarnet/Headlydown? Because the idea that NLP may be untestable conflicts with this point of view that NLP has been tested and has failed.
AlanBarnet/HeadleyDown... you're just going to get banned again for this blatant POV Warrioring and the article is going to get balanced out again. Why not pick up another hobby? The EFT article is looking pretty vulnerable?. 
No need to reply or complain about good faith. I'm not touching this article again. Let him dig his own hole.74.38.250.5 06:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to assume good faith here with all new editors. There are many skeptics, scientists, clinical psychologists who could review the research and make a valuable contribution to this series of articles and wikipedia more generally. Some of AlanBarnet's edits have merit. --Comaze 05:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good call Comaze. You have a level head on this. Personally, I assumed good faith weeks ago. And though I am proud to have done so and feel good about it, I think the article will do fine without disastrously POV edits thrown in amongst a camouflage of unecessary grammar fixes and marshmallow edits. It's a hard decision but it is necessary to turf out all the edits when there is a fair chance an editor is behaving deceiptfully with their edits. That is why I also reverted User:AlanBarnet's edits recently. 58.179.176.92 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Unvanquishable POV Warrior

message: Can anybody explain the 'led' in 'led by Prof. Figley' under 'Mental Health Practice'? The only Figley source cited in the article is about the 4 therapies listed, not NLP, and was exploratory anyway. Or has Figley gone further, in which case it needs another citation. Fainites 22:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fainites, Figley teaches the V/KD (Frogs into Princes, Bandler & Grinder 1979) as a "promising technique" or as one of the "power therapies" in Trauma workshops. He is probably the most reputable proponent of NLP in clinical practice. Lilienfeld et al in Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology (2002) criticised VK/D in trauma workshops (Figley 1997) for its limited empirical evidenence for efficacy of VK/D in controlled studies. The reason I included it in the mental health section is because that was the focus of Lilienfeld's literature review. Devilly (2005) also uses the term "power therapy" as coined by Figley. Otherwise Devilly cites Sharpley's literature reviews (1984, 1987). I can provide additional sources if needed. --Comaze 05:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Here is the quote from Figley and Carbonel: "Visual Kinesthetic Disassociation (VK/D). This approach was represented by the second treatment team to participate in the study (mid October). VK/D, which is a component of Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP), is practiced internationally to eliminate phobia and trauma symptoms. It employs, among other methods, a "fast phobia trauma cure procedure," developed originally by Richard Bandler [and John Grinder (1979)], which asks the client to focus on the causal origin of the traumatic stress. It establishes a 3-place dissociation method that reportedly enables the client to eliminate all affect associated with the stressor (MacLean, 1986; Einspruch & Forman, 1988; Andreas & Andreas, 1992)." Figley, CR, Carbonel J. (1999) Promising treatment approaches. Electronic Journal of Traumatology. Available online at  --Comaze 01:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Figley

message: Comaze. Do not call my editing tabloid style. I take that to be extremely incivil. My edits are neither tabloid nor broadsheet. I am editing Wikipedia style using straight reporting. I have added no editorials. Your preference it seems - is towards promotional editorialising. I am in the middle of correcting your editing by removing the commentary. I see more and more why user Woohookitty has given up on this article. Once I have determined who are the authorities here I will be able to write a detailed account of your activities and your seeming collaboration with other promoters - if you continue to editorialize. AlanBarnet 06:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's avoid exaggerated skepticism or promotion of NLP. By tabloid style skepticism I meant controversial or attention-grabbing. It was a comment on the content, not the contributor. A typical example of what I consider tabloid skepticism that keeps popping up is the desire to descibe NLP techniques as New Age "rituals".  On wikipedia when there is significant disagreement, then the disagreement is to be described objectively. Can you explain what you mean by "removing the commentary" - many times when you've written proceeded to remove context or transition signals. There is nothing wrong with using "however" or "at the same time" or similar transition signals to introduce new ideas, opposing ideas, examples, counter-examples, etc. Rather it should be encouraged. --Comaze 09:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Any significant views in the peer-reviewed literature will be referenced in other works. Abstracts for the major peer-review works are available online. If a statement does not match the abstract and is not verifiable from a third party source then the WP:verifiability and WP:reputablility flags are raised. I believe that peer-reviewed sources will remain verifiable for longer. Ask yourself, will this source be available in 10 years?  --Comaze 23:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Much of the article will be out of date in 10 years in any case. If you suspect there's a better source for a statement it is best follow common sense and leave the statement in the article. It's much easier to track down better sources than it is to wade through the history and restore stuff that was unceremoniously and unecessarily deleted. There has been some rather hasty and unecessary deletions lately. 202.67.113.200 00:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello 202. I had no trouble verifying what is in the history tab though it is a lengthy process requiring research. Anyone with access to a set of good databases could do it after a time. I shall restore some of those hasty deletions of reliable relevant views. Again. AlanBarnet 05:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Avoid skepticism or promotion

message: I simplified a double weasel comment that said:
 research reviews suggested NLP may be Z
It is unecessary to say it may or may not be the case, the word suggested already conveys this meaning. 202.67.113.200 01:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. However there is a theme in (minor?) research papers in training and development suggest that the "The verdict on the efficacy of NLP is unclear." Eg (Dowlen 1996, Thompson & Dickson 2002, Mathison & Tosey 2003) References: Thompson, Lisa and Dickson (2002) Journal of European Industrial Training Vol.26.6 --Comaze 02:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Suggest still works. Being suggested doesn't indicate a final verdict. Saying it is unsupported and untestable is pretty much what Bandler and Grinder say anyway. They say they made it up based on what they observed don't they? Thanks for the link. Is it in the review section? 58.179.185.29 07:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double weasel 

message: Comaze. Under Mental health Practice, Lilienfield lists NLP amongst all the other unvalidated and scientifically unsupported interventions in his article. Would the third sentance read better if it read 'the majority of interventions in the psychotherapy and mental health context, including NLP are uvalidated' etc' and then the last bit of the sentance after the colon becomes unecessary.Fainites 12:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice. That's more concise whilst retaining the meaning of Lilienfeld. --Comaze 13:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Devilly criticises NLP as a unvalidated "power therapy". He relies on Sharpley's research (1987). --Comaze 13:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mental health practice 

message: The sentence from the Mental health practice section:
NLP is also based on some of Freud's most flawed and pseudoscientific thinking that has been rejected by the mainstream psychology community for decades[43]
This statement seems dubious to me because, in my opinion, firstly, we need to specify what exactly NLP has adapted from classical Freudian thought, secondly, there is no reference, and, thirdly, I am simply curious about that. It is strange to see phrases like "pseudoscientific thinking" in relation to Freud, since during the period of his life he was definitely in the mainstream paradigm.   Shouldn't we remove this sentence? Eli the Barrow-boy 14:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the quote: "NLP seems to use the same kind of clinical divination that led Freud to know what was happening beneath the surface."(page.159) It is a reputable book but we should be aware that it is a "cynical guide"(Psychology Today) to many current talking therapies. --Comaze 00:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comaze. Are you saying Eisner does not associate NLP with pseudoscience or Freuds pseudoscientific thinking? AlanBarnet 04:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  Without judging the book either way, that quote does not support the statement "NLP is based on some of Freud's most pseudoscientific work" or anything like it. I'd bet there's better material than this to cite from that book. 58.179.182.101 00:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is well known that Freud studied with french hypnotist Jean-Martin Charcot before developing psychoanalysis. Perhaps hypnosis is the connection made my Eisner. NLP does use the idea of unconscious from Milton Erickson. This is not to be confused with Freud, in that "although this will most likely be clear to many readers, it may be well to make the point here that the authors' conception of the unconscious is definitely not the one held by Freud."(Andre M. Weitzenhoffer (1976) Introduction/forward in Hypnotic Realities by Erickson & Rossi, 1976). NLP does not use Freud's three-tiered concept of id, ego, and superego. Interestingly Jay Hayley's Brief therapy, like NLP, was based on the work of Milton Erickson's; it has been described as anti-freudian. Furthermore Freud's industrial metaphors of releasing pent-up emotional pressure, fighting with the resistance and dream analysis have no part in NLP. I'm sure that some ideas incorporated from gestalt therapy and Satir's family systems have origins in Freud's work. To call them pseudoscientific is unfair to Freud because if he was around today he probably would have updated his theories based on the lastest science. --Comaze 02:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks to me like they are borrowed from many sources. I have altered the section in the article and added direct quotes. And I removed the pseudoscience term. On reflection it could be better placed elsewhere. Any ideas?. On reflection it looks to be better off as a direct quote in the review section. Eisner is refering to chapter 7 (a chapter on NLP I believe) Harristweed 08:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes Fainites. The title of the section is "Building on Freuds Flawed Edifice". There is no mention of pseudoscience. I think this is good reason to present quotes rather than interpret the statements. Harristweed 11:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes Faintes he seems to be a science researcher in psychology. He has professor credentials. Harristweed 11:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Well again I don't see how we can present all reviews of all books in the article. The article should be focused on NLP rather than on criticising scientists. Eisner seems to have very good credentials and I can't see any reason to present him as anything but a scientist and certified psychologist. The bottom line really is that he agrees with the science view that NLP has failed scientific testing. Harristweed 11:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not looking to criticise scientists. I have a preference for science. But when it comes to Eisner's book. It is obviously biased and needs to be characterised. Have a look at the wikipedia policy on characterising the bias of critics. This is fine as long as those biases are published by a reputable source, in this case, Psychology Today. --Comaze 11:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes Fainites you are correct and this is an important issue. I don't intend to post information into the opening on the basis of its damning nature though. I included it in the article because its important as you say and it is part of the discussion rather than any hard conclusion. The opening should represent what the main science views state and you could be right that untestable can be included there and I am still open to the suggestion. Discussion will help. I suggest placing it somewhere where it'll help the reader understand the issues though. Its a bit of a deep discussion so I think putting it in context in the science section will be the easiest for the reader to understand. I'm open to reasonable suggestions though. AlanBarnet 07:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Hi Fainites and Harris again. The Von Bergen article mentions this "merits further consideration" point so I think its worth putting in the article. The article says that Druckman dropped NLP a year later and of course Von Bergen says NLP is unvalidated and in error conceptually. The information was arranged in good order a day or so ago but Comaze seperated the two related points yesterday when deleting all those relevant views from the article. AlanBarnet 08:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Even the shortened title The Death of Psychotherapy would be ok. --Comaze 05:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freud's most flawed thinking 

message: The quote from Margaret Singer in this section has lost it's reference. There are 2 Singer books in the list of references. Does anyone know which one this quote comes from? I'm looking through the history but with no luck yet. Fainites 22:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Cults in Our Midst does not mention NLP, then it is most likely "Singer & Lalich (1996) Crazy Therapies Jossey-Bass Publishers. --Comaze 00:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When Singer was sued many of the cult allegations were removed from subsequent revisions. This might explain why the cult allegations are not present in the latest version. The general consensus is that NLP has been used in the personal development movement.  --Comaze 05:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commercialization 

message: *"compared to the almost cult following that NLP has achieved, mainly in the USA but latterly in the UK" Ref: Ashley Dowlen (1996) NLP – help or hype? Investigating the uses of neurolinguistic programming in management learning.
*"It is as if NLP has achieved something akin to cult status when it may be nothing more than another psychological fad that will go its merry way until it is replaced by the next fad." ref: Elich & Thompson 1985
Dowlen (1996) and Elich & Thompson (1985) are commenting here about the gap between the popularity of NLP and relative lack of research. --Comaze 00:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cult status/following v. misuse by cults 

message: Comaze has spent the last few weeks trying to remove relevant (and not particularly promotional) views from this main article. NPOV policy says that each article should include all relevant views. The science view/research section with all its related and relevant views should be maintained. It is particularly unhelpful to persistently remove relevant views when they are in the middle of being discussed and verified. Please stop doing it. You will only get reverted by editors concerned about maintainting relevant views. AlanBarnet 06:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be more specific. --Comaze 07:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Those minority views can be adequately covered in other areas. Inserting a patchwork of exaggerated comments about lack of research only undermines the reliability of that section. If you want to include those minor sources you should not exclude the supportive evidence. --Comaze 07:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes Fainites. I'm working on that right now. Comaze deleting so many relevant views so persistently really has been a pain. AlanBarnet 08:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: While I appreciate that you've restored most of the first paragraph. The rest of the section fails WP:NPOV and WP:OR. However I do appreciat ethe comprimise on the first paragraph. I look forward to seeing your edits in the rest of that section. I'll hold off reverting until you'd had a chance to balance it out. There are hundreds of studies on NLP, and overall it the literature is not as black and white as your edits have suggested. There are studies and reviews of studies that are atleast partly supportive. --Comaze 08:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comaze. If you delete relevant views yet again you will have your edits reverted. AlanBarnet 08:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I've search my collection of NLP reseach. There are no references to Druckman & Swets. There are only a few references to John A. Swets and Robert A. Bjork which surprised me. I think we've stuffed up somewhere along the line. We should be using John A. Swets and Robert A. Bjork (not Druckman). It surprises me that Swets and Bjork are not mentioned in the subsequent research reviews. Perhaps Swets is outweighed by the more comphrehensive review by Sharpley. --Comaze 10:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Email me and I'll send you some excerpts. --Comaze 11:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Comaze. I've now found it on the National Academies website. I've read the whole chapter on Modeling and there is no mention of NLP or any terminology that sounds like NLP. I'll check through the rest but it looks as if they didn't consider NLP even though this looks like a follow up study to the original Druckman and Swets. I'll get back to you on this one. Fainites 11:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article cites Swets and Bjork...  --Comaze 11:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: That's fine Fainites. So there is not much connection back to NLP sources? There are several other aspects of NLP that are supported in other fields. Unfortunately most NLP practitoners have no interest in academia. I'll add the reference. Next time just type something like: "John A. Swets and Robert A. Bjork (1991) Enhanncing human performance: An Evaluation of "New Age" Techniques Considered by the U.S". --Comaze 13:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maintenance of relevant views

message: Comaze. Could you please add in the supportive review quotes and citations you refer to in your recent tagging of the section. We could then trim the section down to a reasonable size. I know it's already far to big in the scope of the article. 210.50.221.248 11:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Singer's book is written to warn people who are seeking therapy to avoid those who are not properly accredited psychologists. It can therefore go in the mental health section. It will probably need some context. --Comaze 14:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Hello Fainites and all. I think that would depend on the context of the quote. Do you have the quote in full? Harristweed 05:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Also. As regards reviews. I think it would be helpful to list exactly who says NLP is unsupported. I know we have some already there such as the later review of Devilly 2005. But I notice Singer doesn't explicitly say NLP is unsupported. Does Singer actually state NLP has support or does not? Harristweed 05:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I think in addition to this, there seems to be quite a lot of consensus on pseudoscience in NLP. This seems to be a seperate issue. If we could put a set of people who think NLP is pseudoscientific then it would help. It may also help to say why they think it is pseudoscience. With both issues (Unsupported and pseudoscience) it is important to state who holds those views and why. There should be something in the above descriptions of NLP ideas from NLP authors to say why they think it is not pseudoscience if possible. In fact do any NLP authors specifically say NLP is a science? Harristweed 05:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research reviews 

message: The statement Research reviews in the late 1980s... occurs in three variations in the article, with several follow up statements also duplicated. Could the editor responsible for this duplication please tidy it up? I often do a Ctrl-F and search for phrases so you can easily avoid duplicating parts of the article in future. If you take care. 210.50.221.248 12:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It wasn't me, but I've fixed that one. We really should have a short summary of the science in the opening. Or should the summary that was there be moved back? How do other handle this on similar articles? I've also removed the repetition of the meaning of NLP from the opening paragraph. I don't care if it is there but it shouldn't be repeated. Unfortunately the name can be confusing so I prefer where it is now. --Comaze 13:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unecessary repetition 

message: Comaze. I think a merger is unwarranted. Although ethics and ecology are obviously related, we should note they appear under the headings of concepts and methods and reception which are not similar at all. A quick read of the sub-sections shows that indeed the writing alos closely follows the main headings as well as the subheadings. If we mix the sections together we will lose this distinction and it will be hard to separate the concepts and methods of NLP Ecology from reception statements about cults and whatnot. Your thoughts? 210.50.221.248 14:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On second thoughts I withdraw. However, both of those sections should be more objective. --Comaze 14:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Much appreciated. 210.50.221.248 21:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge: Methods->Ecology with Reception->Ethics 

message: Had a go at the tagged section on the Milton Model. What do you think? Fainites 22:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Milton Model

message: Hi all. I took a good look at the article and over the last few days it really has undergone a massive and bewildering amount of changes. I can only see this as being hazardous and likely to cause problems. There is very little in the way of discussion of those changes. I would suggest a cooling off period or at the very least waiting for replies for discussion. I imagine that any undiscussed reversions could be quite legitimately made, considering the undiscussed moves and alterations. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort after all. Thanks. Harristweed 05:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been nothing but harmonious editing and teamwork in the last 24 hours, with 5 editors making supportive and collaborative edits; and no one arguing or disagreeing. It's been heaven. You can follow the collaborative discussion (and there is ample) in the page history. So, yes please, go away and cool off if that's what you desire. And please, don't play us for fools. We've been through that for 2 years here and it won't wash anymore. 58.178.102.143 05:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry 58.178.102.143. I didn't call you a fool. My experience of other articles shows that rapid change leads to problems and that's also writen in WP:NPOV. You can choose to ignore my suggestion but I would like to maintain the civility that this article has been under. Thanks. Indeed now it is not my intention to return.Harristweed 06:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks Harris. Apology accepted. And my apologies for not taking your advice. Here's the thing; your advice opposes a founding principle of wikipedia that says edit this page right now. Furthermore, the correct place to even discuss the merits of your suggestion to "slow down" is in Wikipedia proposals. In reality, the overwhelming policy direction on wikipedia is to get busy writing an encyclopedia. Regarding civility, I apologise for my tone before. Here's my suggestion to you: be mindful that when you request users to analyse each other, it is against guidelines and there's always at least one editor that will take it as an opportunity to start throwing accusations around. 58.178.102.143 09:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Truly AlanBarnet. You are pushing the limits of civility to fit that much disinformation into one paragraph. 58.178.102.143 13:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The pace of change

message: AlanBarnet. I'm getting hold of a copy of Margaret Singers book. Meanwhile, do you have any other good, quotable evidence of major NLP proponents to date claiming NLP is scientific or based on science. I think it's quite important to establish whether mainstream current practitioners or the leading current thinkers in NLP hold it out as scientific. Fainites 09:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Fainites. I think the best way will be simply to report it straight. Show me the data! - is what the scientists usually say.  So the conclusion on the data looks the most quotable. But then again it will depend on what the latter reports say. I think others may place Druckman with greater weight. Either way as you say theres no evidence of NLP effectiveness or correctness of theory. I've some information by a countryman of mine called Drenth. He mentions some pseudoscientific aspects. I imagine Singer mentions some also. After a good delve of the archives I noticed a big part of it was conducted under supervision from admin. It may be a good idea to investigate what they found acceptable. AlanBarnet 08:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I hope not. People need sleep :) --Comaze 00:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: What version of NLP did they evaluate? --Comaze 08:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Research Reviews

message: I'm the person that once posted as Flavius Vanillus.  I haven't looked at the NLP article in many months let alone edited it.   Contrary to the unsubstantiated view being self-righteously promoted by FT2 I and Headley Down are two distinct people.  I actually "met" HeadleyDown when (s)he introduced him/herself on My Page when I opened the Flavius Vanillus account.  Furthermore, I do not and did not belong to any sceptics forum or society.  There was/is no anti-NLP cabal.  I've never posted to Wikipedia using two co-existent online identities.  Certainly, HeadleyDown used many sock puppets -- and I discovered this only just before the "authorities" did so via my own stylistic comparisons (you can find my early discussion page posts where I raise my suspicion about HeadleyDown).  I did correspond with HeadleyDown just as I corresponded with Comaze (to validate my identity I'll remind Comaze that in a private email I directed him to an error in the 'Contact Us' mark-up on his business site).  We exchanged references and discussed our frustrations but there was no conspiracy.  I feel compelled to post because FT2 is indulging in conspiratorial fantasy and is negating the value of mine and HeadleyDown's contributions to the article.  My editing style was conservative in that I didn't commit anything to the article unless I could substantiate it.  I was also ready to discard those edits when I could see that some of them comprised OR.  For the record I'm a male IT professional based in Australia, HeadleyDown is/was a PhD student from Hong Kong. An IP address check would have shown that I am not HeadleyDown.   Although I am posting through a private proxy at the moment I never did so when I was editing the article.  A mod. can verify that as Flavius I consistently edited from an well-known Australian ISP address block.  Instead of due dilligence FT2 merely assumed that there was only one person presenting an NLP-critical view.  Excluding HeadleyDowns socks there were at least four people at one point presenting an NLP-critical view.  I've noticed also that FT2 is automatically accusing everyone that offers a critical view of being HeadleyDown.   I've no intention of editing the NLP article (even though I could easily do so with the abundance of closed/private HTTP proxy servers around the world) and I ask only that this post remain in the discussion page to offset the self-righteous propaganda that FT2 has been spreading.  
On reflection it was a case of "too many cooks" and this did not serve the interests of producing a good article.  The problem now is that in the absence of any critical opinion (or its relgation to the sidelines) the article risks becoming a promotional "puff piece" for the NLP industry.  I'm not offering myself as the antidote nor am I campaigning for the return of HeadleyDown.  That notwithstanding both I and HeadleyDown and his/her many personas helped to "keep the bastards honest" (to quote the late Don Chipp).  In my view Comaze and GregA were the best of the pro-NLP editors even though I feel that their commercial interests in NLP are skewing some of their views (but this is normal, we all have biases).  Having Comaze and GregA edit the article doesn't alarm me.  In my experience both had some understanding and appreciation of the notion of evidence and were quite clear thinkers.  I don't feel I can extend the same assessment to FT2.  FT2 carries an idelogical stench whereever (s)he seems to go in "Wikipedia World".  There is a clear advocacy and promotion in FT2s edits.  Furthermore, the promotion and advocacy is unsophisticated and lazy in the sense that it is apparently exlusively based on Google.  FT2's edits are replete with unsubstantiated opinion -- the "NLP and Science" article is a particularly egregious example of this tendency, it is a mass of unsubstantiated verbiage.
This is statement of the obvious (I know) but you'll only achieve stability in the article if it succeeds in carefully treading the tight-rope of neutrality.  I can now see we did push too hard on some issues (eg. NLP and magick) and this was counter-productive and wasteful of time and energy.  However, the pro-NLP editors were no less culpable in different ways.  There was (and remains) a tendency to present disguised forms of the argument from ignorance, i.e. there is no scientific evidence against hypothesis H so we'll act as if there evidence for H else we'll argue that the conventional concept of evidence is irrelevant.  This brings me to the other persistent problem about "epistemology".  Grinder's idiosyncratic conception of "epistemology" should be presented as just that, namely Grinders view.  Also if Grinder has an an argument to support his take on "epistemology" then it should be referenced.  If he has no such argument in defence of his "epistemology" then that too should be stated.  The notion that a hypothesis can be epistemologically "promoted" by arguing that it originated from a proto-science, that it is a "model", that it is a "pragmatic model" that can't be wrong or right or that is based on a pardigm shift is mere sophistry.
64.46.47.242 04:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Send me an email formerly known an Flavius so we can discuss how to make the article critical (as in objective and neutral). Believe it or not I am a scientist at heart. --Comaze 07:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi flavius. I'm truly sorry HeadleyDown hoodwinked you, but actually I'm not FT2 (if that's what you were insinuating). FT2 hasn't even been on this page in ages. Which is a shame because most of your rant is directed at him. Yet, lets remind readers that as an Arbcom finding of fact you are listed as being an obsessive and POV editor and FT2 is not. You were permanently banned for incessant incivility and FT2 was not. 58.178.193.158 14:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Point of Clarification Regarding the Previous Editorship of this Article

message: I have searched the Michael D Langone book on 'Recovery from Cults' which is one of the references in the cult section. It is clear the book is not saying NLP is a cult but it is used by cults. eg 'It's a tool for generating change for changes sake. We know that NLP is also used by some very aggressive cults because the NLP method can be used by such groups to instill a reliance upon the cult, and provides a conditioning method to further induce compliance.' There are similar concerns about hypnotherapy and they see NLP as 'hypnotic induction'. The only direct criticism of NLP itself is in a passage where it is linked with est, meditation (transcendental I think) and Scientology in that it teaches that the percieved world is an illusion although they then make a specific distinction between NLP and the others in that no alternative mythology (eg cult of a leader) accompanies this in NLP. In a bizarre way you could say this book almost supports NLP because it proceeds on the assumption that NLP not only 'works' but is very powerful! However, it is clearly the hypnotic side of things and probably the same complaints have been about the misuse of hypnosis many times before. In any event, inclusion of this book as a reference for the sentence that some writeers have described NLP as a cult or psychocult is not accurate. The other references need to be checked. Does anybody other than HarrisTweed have access to a copy of Eisners 'The Death of Psychotherapy' ? Fainites 10:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically the full reference needs to be somewhere in the document. When you add the full reference you can then use the shortened version . So in this case you need to move the full reference somewhere else so it is retained. Hope this makes sense. --Comaze 00:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: cult/misuse by cults

message: The bit about Castenada is marked as dubious. I've checked the entry in the NLP Encyclopaedia and it certainly concurs with what is written here about Castenada's influence on NLP. Is this sufficient? Fainites 20:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm. I read it too. I seem to recall that we paraphrase the entry, and none too well. 58.178.199.62 22:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think the paraphrase is accurate. I'll see if I can find a third party source for this. --Comaze 00:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Religiosity

message: This is now too obscure and uses terminology and concepts from NLP that do not illuminate. It also ought to make reference to the fact that NLP as at best highly controversial and scientifically unvalidated. I also think the introduction to the history section is too onesided. Fainites 22:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the history section, remember it is a history of NLP, not a history of the reception of NLP. What exactly is missing? 58.178.199.62 22:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Just read over the intro. Can't work out what NLP specific terminology you're refering to. The second paragraph could do with some c/e, perhaps you're refering to that? I agree the intro should mention "controversial" and more about the reception of NLP generally. I would advise adding a third paragraph and I think everyone is agreed on this; though adding the phrase "highly controversial" is a tad dramatic and probably interpretable in too many ways. Since obviously this third paragraph would be based on the most contested part of the article, how are we to proceed in summarising? How will we know we aren't summarising fraudulent commentary and citations? There's still lots to clean up in the bottom section. 58.178.199.62 22:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: All good. I'm fine with thoese sentences. Well done. 58.178.199.62 00:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, maybe let's remove it then. 58.178.199.62 00:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Um... So much for waiting. AlanBarnet has seen fit to put a scientific reception paragraph in the intro. Which if I'm not mistaken is the main point of contention between us editors. That should stoke the fire for another week... Anyway for what it's worth, I think the paragraph should introduce the reception of NLP generally before drilling down into science. 58.178.199.62 10:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  All good. I've bolded the phrasing above. Let's come back to it. 58.178.98.230 22:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I wrote that second paragraph a couple of days ago. I was quite proud of it :) But, it reads much better now that you have rearranged it. Thank you. I'm really enjoying the collaborative efforts. I've spent alot of time trying to improve this page and its really nice to have some people work together. This is what wikipedia should be like. I know there is a lot of work, but we might be able to get a peer review soon to get some more feedback. Then feature candidate. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. --Comaze 11:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hehehe. What are you on Comaze? 58.178.98.230 22:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: I rewrote the section on modeling. Can someone please review it for me. Thanks in advance --Comaze 04:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly needs to be easier to understand for someone outside of NLP or psychology. If you have time, insert you topic sentence. I'll come back to it with fresh eyes. --Comaze 11:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modeling 

message: Nice condensing. I'll try re-reading in a minute from the point of view of a non-NLPer. I recall reading somewhere that the eye movement thing had definately been disproved and then dumped by practioners. I don't mean EMDR, but the bit about eye movement indicating anything.Fainites 13:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Represention

message: Following on from HarrisTweeds interest in whether NLP claimed to be scientific and in what sense, some nice bits from Dilts. Unfortunately I have to go to work tomorrow so I don't have time to put it all in. But try this     "Like applied science, the core criteria of NLP methods is that they be 'useful' and 'held accountable to our sensory experiences'.In fact as the name Neuro-Linguistic Programming implies, NLP is rooted in the synthesis of three areas of modern science:neurophysiology, linguistics and cybernetics..." .......then "In considering NLP as a science however, it is important to recognise that the epistemology of NLP is more 'subjective' and 'systematically' oriented than many 'hard' sciences, which tend to be more 'objective' and 'deterministic'. That is the patterns explored and identified by NLP are often necessarily contextual and influenced by the perceptual filters of the observer." and "In fact from the NLP standpoint, "science" is a function of systematically developing and applying a particular set of perceptual filters, criteria and cause-effect beliefs." Fainites 23:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find. Hmmm. Seems like he's saying it's a supersoft science if at all. When did he say that? 58.178.98.230 01:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I agree, it's a bit like that. I guess what's important is that if we say in that article that NLP claims to be a science, we should be clear what we mean by that. 58.178.98.230 14:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The positivist tradition should be constrasted with humanistic psychology. Scientifically, the humanistic field views the usage of quantitative methods in the study of the human mind and behaviour as misguided which would match with Bateson's introduction to that foundational book on NLP. "Sharpley (1987) details seven studies (not included in the above total) that demonstrate that the research data does not support the basic tenets of NLP. It is noteworthy that this literature is based in the positivist psychological tradition and many of the examples are in therapeutic areas, e.g. phobia cure (Einsbruch, 1988) and counselling (Helm, 1991). Interest in this area appears to fade in the early 1990s and there are few reported studies after this date." ... "The review of literature does not provide a firm base for a belief that NLP has a lasting effect. Many of the studies are arguably methodologically flawed (Einsbruch and Forman, 1985). Their "flaws" raise considerable methodological and method issues. This view is supported by the positivist stance of Baddeley (1989) that a final verdict (on NLP) is withheld until further clinical studies and experimental investigations are reported." John E Thompson, Lisa Courtney, D Dickson. (2002) The effect of neurolinguistic programming on organisational and individual performance: A case study Journal of European Industrial Training. Bradford. Vol. 26, Iss. 6/7; p. 292 (7 pages) --Comaze 14:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: There are limited references to NLP from the computer science and I don't know of any from neuroscience. The NLP epistemology borrows from the foundations of computer science (turing machine, automata, theory of types) but that is more or less imported from linguistics (transformational grammar, Noam Chomsky) (Bandler & Grinder 1975; Grinder & Bostic St Clair 2001). Grinder recommends (2001) that those interested work with the reseachers in neuroscience and cognitive linguistics to improve the relationship between those fields. I have found several papers in computer science that have used NLP as part of the modeling of subjective experience in artificially intelligent agents.  There are also a number of papers that recommends NLP in teaching computer science. I don't want to overstate its importance because it is rarely cited. --Comaze 01:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no need to single Sharpley out. But it is necessary to characterise the type of research evidence that is being discussed. The humanistic/positivist 'tension' is a common theme in the social sciences and behavioral sciences. Even the term tension is from a mechanistic metaphor of human communication (Bateson would be turning in his grave). The author of that quote recommends longitudinal study of NLP. However the interpretation of the longitudinal study by Thompson et al is limited because of inadequate controls. --Comaze 01:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Grinder strongly argues that NLP is an epistemology. In Whispering (2001) he makes recommendations to set the base for NLP as a scientifically based endeavor. Grinder and Delozier (1984) argue that Bateson (and NLP) attempts to synthesize the overdrawn positions of empiricists (eg. David Hume and the logical positivists) and idealists (eg. German Idealism). --Comaze 01:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NLP claims to be a science

message: Despite the helpful assessment of an administrator – there is still a distinct reluctance to document the basic facts clearly or even remedy the badly promotional editing that has been presented over the past weeks. There remains a strong tendency to obscure the main facts . Presenting the basic science views in the opening solves at least some of the problem of obscuring facts for the purpose of promotion as has been mentioned by the administrator .  Note that the term “cult” is not used there at all.  It is definitely the majority view (science) and should remain open and clear for the reader to see. Its in summarized and should be documented straight and clear according to NPOV policy and of course again it will help to solve the problem of promotional editing. AlanBarnet 07:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you must have misread your link. That administrator actually says "fundamental fact that NLP is a cult". See for yourself. Labelling proponents of NLP cult victims isn't what I'd rate as highly helpful. Anyway, looks like you're in the minority on this issue. As fainites and I were discussing above nobody is obscuring anything. We are simply waiting until the reception section has settled down before inserting anything too tense in the introduction. Are you willing to work towards consensus on this issue? Or discuss the issues in the intro thread? 58.178.98.230 14:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The facts are very clear. To partially deal with the promotion problem outlined by administrator Guy on the ANI article – the fundamental and incontrovertible facts were presented in the opening. Another editor (BenAveling) helped to make the passage clearly presented .  An anonymous IP came along for the second or third time running and (similar to other anonymous editors and user Comaze) deleted it giving a highly inconsistent excuse. How come they didn’t remove other information from the opening thats less well supported? It is all repeated in some form or other within the main body of the article. Its actually the anonymous editor who messed up the research section. How come you are suggesting to me not place the basic - and most reliable science facts in the opening when you could simply cooperate with the ANI assessment – and revert the anonymous IP – to help make sure the basic facts are not being obscured? No mention of the view that NLP is a cult – even though Guy was correct and the term cult is used even in the peer reviewed sources that scientifically review NLP. Now I may still be fairly new here - but seems to me that on this article much more than all others I have worked on - there's a lot of concerted and diametrically opposed inconsistency with the most obvious priorities of Wikipedia. There seems to be open animosity or reluctance to presenting the science facts clearly for the readers. Even when editors ask for apologies for leaning heavily on others - they still present strong resistence to NPOV facts. Its very offputting. AlanBarnet 06:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you might be overstating your case here. We're trying to establish a consensus on the recption of NLP in various disciplines. Science is one of those. It is not black and white. What's your view on the hard science v. soft science argument (see previous thread)? --Comaze 06:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Promotional obscuring of the main facts

message: There are many sources that state that there is a need for further research. There are also criticisms of the research from experimental conselling (Sharpley etc). Reviews by Dowlen (1996) and more recently by Thompson et al (2001), generally agree with Sharpley and Einspruch, but also state that there is a need for further research. Thompson suggests longitudinal studies. There are individual studies that can also be described. These studies have been summarised in reviews. Those studies may have been excluded by the phantom Lilienfeld review most likely because they were published in journals outside of counselling psychology. So we have an issue here. NLP has been adopted in any fields other than counselling. If Lilienfeld did review NLP, he would probably exclude the reviews that are not related to mental health. Devilly would do the same. So would Singer (1997) if she still alive. Eisner (2001) was also writinf about psychotherapy, so he would also exclude Dowlen, 1996 (management) and Tosey & Mathison, 2003 (Teaching theory), as well as the individual studies on NLP in marketing and sales (eg. Skinner etc.). --Comaze 10:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Von Bergen seems to say it all - unvalidated and inappropriate for management training (human resources). They present about the most solid review - base it on their own assessment of the studies and other reviews. Its fairly recent (1997). There is also a line that keeps getting seperated from the Druckman in the article (Druckman dropped NLP from the research stream). Devilly seems to verify this by inferring researchers havn't done any controlled studies since the "host of controlled studies of the 80s" because its not worth empirically researching pseudoscientific new age techniques. At least thats the message I'm hearing loud and clear from a collection of reliable reviews. AlanBarnet 07:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps it will help to assess the impact factor and number of citations of the journals and individual papers we are relying on for the article. It would be difficult to argue against inclusion of articles that are published in peer-reviewed journals and have many citations (some examples might include: Sharpley: counselling, Einspruch and Forman: counselling, Craft, A. in education). And would exclude some minor papers and new papers that have not been cited or reviewed yet. --Comaze 08:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research in fields other than mental health and psychotherapy 

message: *Burke, D. T., Meleger, A., Schneider, J. C., Snyder, J., Dorvlo, A. S., Al-Adawi, S. (2003): "Eye-movements and ongoing task processing." 	Perceptual and Motor Skills. June, Vol. 96(3 Pt 2) pp. 1330-8.
I just found this study published in 2003 which yielded some positiive results for Rep systems and accessing cues in NLP. I've only read the abstract. I'll get the full article shortly:  --Comaze 12:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quote from abstract: The study tested representational systems and eye accessing cues: "...Some subjects' eye-movements reflected ongoing thought processing. Instead of a universal pattern, as suggested by the neurolinguistic programming hypothesis, this study yielded subject-specific idiosyncratic eye-movements across all modalities. Included is a discussion of the neurolinguistic programming hypothesis regarding eye-movements and its implications for the eye-movement desensitization and reprocessing theory." --Comaze 12:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have the paper? --Comaze 04:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Individual study: Eye-movements and ongoing task processing 

message: I've redone Salerno with a more accurate synopsis and quotations from the book. However, now it's accurate, is it worth having under 'critics'? He pokes fun at NLP over the law suits and the divorce but doesn't seem to be particularly attacking mainstream NLP itself; more Tony Robbins spin-offs. Aso the Sedona method spin-off. It's a bit like blaming Nietzsche for the Nazi's because they were a spin-off. Can somebody else have a look and see what they think? Fainites 18:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've inserted the summary of Salerno over at Tony Robbins' page. It will be interesting to see what happens with it there. Is this ok? Should we shorten the version on the NLP page? --Comaze 23:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Robbins is directly related to NLP according to the views of the sources so it is relevant. Our opinions are irrelevant on this matter.AlanBarnet 04:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Salerno

message: I've move the summmary of Figley to the reviews section. The 'mental health practice' section needs to be revised now. Are you happy with Figley (and the critique by Wilson) where it is now? --Comaze 06:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've revised the Figley paragraph again. I added the actual results of the study for VK/D and hopefully made it clearer. --Comaze 13:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Figley (again) 

message: Further to our previous discussions about the extent to which NLP claims to be a science and if so, what kind of science, I have put in a section on this point. I think it needs some additions from the original books of Grinder and Bandler. All other suggestions/criticisms/edits gratefully received.Fainites 14:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Growing anti-intellectualism" is adapted from 'Prometheus Chained". --Comaze 11:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NLP and Science

message: Fainites. Comaze. Can Elich be read online? Even via email? Take care. 58.179.135.173 23:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is available electronically . The methodology of that study was seriously flawed. They were priming for visual images. --Comaze 00:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elich 

message: I have to remind editors (both listed an anon) that there has been a fairly persistent removal of fundamental facts from their correct place of due weight. Considering that there seems to be editors here with a proven conflict of interest - this issue is all the more pressing. I've had to restore information to its correct place in the opening many times over and notify admin of the persistent problem. I've also had to remove more argumentative editing and there is more removal of editorializing to do. Straight reporting please. Please don't maintain the conflict of interest issue as an overwhelming problem. AlanBarnet 04:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you suggest an objective way to determine weight? Number of citations in academic literature is one way, as this would exclude the minor studies and preference the reviews. This might be important for deciding what how much space we dedicate to each view point. There are a number of competing view points that need to be described. I think that the recent changes are beginning to do this. A recent step forward is ascription of view points to the authors. Perhaps we could do a better job at characterising their world views. We should ensure that any systhesis or conclusion is ascribed to a reliable/reputable source. Perhaps we could also do a better job at characterising and group the world views of different authors. There are some distinct view points emerging.  --Comaze 05:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comaze. Firstly you have a proven conflict of interest and that makes your last edits look really bad as has been pointed out to you already by admin Guy. There are many sources stating concern about unvalidated therapies conveying potential harm, spreading misconceptions about psychology, misleading clients to forgo effective treatments, reducing critical thought and scientific rigor, and so on. They all say NLP is one of those "pseudoscientific, unvalidated and quack" treatments. Lots of sources - very much reliable - very reputable - highly relevant. That is the main concern. That is the main issue from a science perspective. You have persistently been obscuring that main view  and you've been substituting sourced and verified concise statements for unsourced and mostly promotional gloss. I think thats a fairly objective assessment. AlanBarnet 06:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll assume good faith here. I like you are trying to find the most reputable sources and quotes to write objectively as possible. I am interested in NLP, but I am writing from the literature, not my personal experience. If you don't like my edits then edit them so that they are more objective. I'm happy to provide quotes to verify any of my sources. --Comaze 06:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Comaze I am notifying the ANI about your edits because I am unhappy with them in toto. I edit your changes on a regular basis - and you revert my changes. You have a known conflict of interest and it is unhelpful. If you want to help Wikipedia - do it on articles that have nothing to do with NLP. AlanBarnet 11:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Fainites. Your edits and arguments are supporting the unconstructive actions of an editor who has a known conflict of interest. I have also obtained a great deal of source info and it agrees with the comment from Admin. I am working forward from the advice of admin. There is far too much promotional obscuring of facts and I am simply making sure that facts are not being obscured. To do so I simply use straight reporting just as it states in NPOV policies. I seem to be up against a group of editors who are against this constructive and admin-cooperative move. AlanBarnet 11:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Due Weight to fundamental facts

message: On wikipedia need to be careful in describing anything as a cult. A recent edit, see recent diffs misrepresents three sources to state that NLP was a cult. We really need to be careful here. Elich et al (1985) state, "It is as if NLP has achieved something akin to cult status when it may be nothing more than another psychological fad that will go its merry way until it is replaced by the next fad." This is very different to what was implied in the context of that recent edit. Saying that something has reached cult status has different implications. --Comaze 06:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comaze. I quoted Eisner (2000). He uses the term - cult - he cites both Sharpley and Elich et al, it is the latest view on the subject, and that is how I used it in that context. I have to remind you again about your WP:COI. You have a known conflict of interest as has already been mentioned by user Guy  In this regard the policy states "we very strongly encourage you to avoid editing Wikipedia in areas in which you appear to have a conflict of interest. Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy states that all Wikipedia articles must represent views fairly and without bias, and a conflicts of interest significantly and negatively affects Wikipedia's ability to fulfill this requirement impartially. Some people with a financial conflict of interest believe they truly can and do provide a neutral view, while abiding by all of the other policies; but the judge of that is other editors, hence the advice to let others actually add the material." I certainly judge you to be incapable of editing here without your known COI getting in the way. This is a big problem and the only solution is that you stop editing any article related to NLP. AlanBarnet 06:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should try to discuss this first. I agree with WP:COI so I'm holding myself to a higher level responsibility when it comes to wikipedia policy. If you think that an edit is biased then please help us be more objective and descriptive of the any disagreements. I am trying to be more accurate with my paraphrasing and summaries. This is not always easy. Also wikipedia policy says that we should not synthesize without attributing the synthesis to a source. That is part of WP:OR policy. Something that I've only really begun to understand properly with Fainites being around. Perhaps this is what you mean by straight reporting or what Guy meant by more descriptive. I know I'm not the best writer, but I'm working on it. By the way, I've looked up Sharpley, Eisner and Elich. Eisner (2001 p.158) quotes Sharpley who has quoted Elich et al. Normal scholarly practise is to quote the original source when available and in this case it is Elich. This quote is already included in the document. Context is very important with a pejorative like cult. --Comaze 11:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: You're getting close to personal attacks now. Please review WP:NPA --Comaze 11:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cult: a pejorative to avoid 

message: Hi Fainites. Just wanted to say that though I changed the section title to "soft science" I'm still pondering a new structure and title that truly captures what that section will best be when it matures. It's seems a little lonely having that major section hang on there all by itself with relatively little content for a major heading. Then there's content in the section that actually fits neatly into all three of the other major sections. Any ideas? 58.178.152.151 17:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've expanded Einspruch and Forman who argue that NLP is very complex and it is difficult to test under the predominant conseling research framework. We should probably flesh out Sharpley's response to this. --Comaze 03:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I made a structural edit to the Concept and methods section. I've renamed it approach to communication and change, and renamed the subheadlines to make it easier to follow for the layperson. I hope this is ok. I'm sure you'd like to revise it. --Comaze 09:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure 

message: Hi fainites. Thanks for contacting me. All good. Regarding that quote. There seems to be a tendency for previous editors to have used peripheral quotes from sources such as Elich to prop up their own arguments rather than to actually represent what Elich et al are actually saying. It seemed to me that Elich had far more intelligent and objective things to share other than that NLP is the latest cult fad. It is reasonable to suppose HeadleyDown originally put that quote in purely on the merit of having the word "cult" in it. Personally, I'd like to respect the heart of what authors are saying and not use them as pawns. 58.178.152.151 23:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we gather together a set of quotes that best represents the Elich article? And then choose perhaps. 58.178.234.128 05:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Great. I think readers will rightly assume whatever quote we use is indicative of the heart of the article, so some care must be taken that we get close to that. I have faith in the editors here. Sleep now. Take care. 202.67.115.1 14:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also rather than including the full quote in the document, it could be summarised or paraphrased and the full quote could be inserted in the list of notes and reference.  --Comaze 14:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed. --Comaze 04:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elich 

message: I've moved the content from Craft/Tosey to the 'soft science' section. It seemed to fit nicely there. Is this ok? Does everyone have the Craft/Tosey papers? --Comaze 07:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Craft/Tosey 

message: Hi Comaze. I'm not a fan of the new headings:
* Basics (this heading passes judgement on the "concepts and methods" of NLP as being "basic". It also isn't clear exactly what it is refering to: the basics of what? The basics of learning NLP? The basics of doing NLP? The basic theory behind NLP? Also, does it mean basic as in "this will get you started"; or basic as in "there is much more to know than this". Either way it's a bit promo-ish.)
* Exceeding the limits of the map (again, this heading implies a positive judgement of NLP. "exceeding limits" = far from NPOV).
I would prefer the more neutral "concepts and methods" and "metamodel" or something else again. Your thoughts? Feelings? Vision? ;) 58.178.133.17 12:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's go back to 'Concepts and Methods' - that section has remained stable for along time with that headline. Do you also want to rename "Unconscious communications" back to Milton model? --Comaze 13:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure. There's merit in both. I'm leaning towards Milton Model. 58.178.133.17 14:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sleep on it :) --Comaze 14:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's ok with me. I'm leaning back towards just 'Milton model' ... It is cleaner that way. Its a minor issue. --Comaze 08:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New headings