Talk:Bryges

message: This is undoubtedly one of the more serious of Shea's numerous errors, such as his description of Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty as being of "Macedonian Slavic background" when he was in fact of Armenian descent. The word breg, present in all modern Slavic languages of the region, cannot possibly be the origin of the ancient name of the Bryges. Shea is clearly confusing the ancient Macedonian language with the unrelated Slavic "Macedonian" of today. If the name of the Bryges did indeed derive from a Macedonian word, that could only have been an ancient Macedonian word. Are there no better sources we could cite? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. See if you can find one, will you? Also I do not think you are considering that place names are typically adopted from one language into another, and that must be true of the Slavs in the Balkans, as they overran the Balkans from some place in the Carpathians later than classical times during the Slavic migrations. I appreciate the tip and why don't we both work on it? While you are at it, I think Mygdonia might be a form of Macedonia but I have not been able to find it yet so since you are interested (as am I) perhaps you could keep an eye out for it. This article of course will take a while to develop properly.Dave (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it's entirely plausible that the Slavs could have adopted a Thracian name left behind by the Bryges, for example. But not the other way around, for purely chronological reasons. That's entirely my point. Also, how do we know that the Macedonian synonymy is "the most credible view"? Good work, by the way. We've always had a shortage of good classicists. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Short search. I found it. It's in Pokorny, the great master, to whose work a whole site and research effort at the U. of Leiden has been dedicated. Pokorny cites the ancient Macedonian name and makes various connections. It will take me as long as a few hours to write this up as I cannot dedicate every minute to it (much to my regret). I think Shea deserves some credit so I'm not just going to exclude him and he is readily reviewable on the Internet, this section anyway. What's the point of being reviewable if no one ever reviews you? For the most credible, I based that on two points: 1) The bryges actually lived right there in Macedonia so if there was a local derivation of the name it would be more believable 2) The great sweeping views are often pretty thin pulling in rag tags from every which way. However in this case I am not willing to give up the people of light or fire as it seems unusual that so many people should be named after the light and when you consider that its worship is so ancient. But as I say they cannot all be right even though they are all excellent and credible. Perhaps then I should drop the idea of most credible but as the highland people seems the strongest and most present to the Bryges I would like to keep that one first. Thanks for the nice words. I've always been a generalist and only reluctantly a specialist so when I saw how well Wikipedia serves that purpose I went for it right away. You can get sweeping views on here that would only be possible with multiple printed  encyclopedias elsewhere and although it is a bit like sidewalk art or ice sculpting still it is adaptive and reactive to new information.Ciao.Dave (talk) 18:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the ancient Macedonan name? I have a hunch it's not breg. I think Pokorny definitely deserves a mention, especially in support of the highland theory. The connection of Macedonia to Bryges or Mygdonia had never actually occurred to me, but it is a fascinating hypothesis. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 03:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm working on it. I'm only remembering what I read somewhere but you never can find things you read when you want to so if I cannot find it in my library or on the Internet than it can't go in unless you or someone else finds it.Dave (talk) 03:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Kékrōps your accusations on the modern and ancient language of the Macedonians lack sources and much linguistic evidence suggests that they may have been very similar. In this matter we have to take the side of Dr.Shea as he is a recognized academic over the views of an unaccredited anonymous internet poster. Ireland101 (talk) 06:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shea, unlike Pokorny, is not "the great master" of Indo-European etymology as Dave so aptly put it above. If Pokorny gives berga for ancient Macedonian, then it's berga, end of story. If by "Macedonian" Shea means ancient Macedonian, then the Slavic breg is an obvious anachronistic error. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

text: No when Shea says Macedonian he means just that, he believes that this word is an example of the continuity of the Macedonian language, ancient to modern. Most respected historians outside of Greece also believe this. Ireland101 (talk) 22:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ancient Macedons were Greek and Greek speakers and Shea is a hoax.
NW greeksNothing to with slavsMegistias (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

text: In that case Shea is wrong, as breg is not ancient Macedonian; it is Slavic, and present not only in what you call "Macedonian", but in the other Slavic languages of the region as well. The "continuity of the Macedonian language" is one of the more pathetic "Macedonist" myths, as it effectively implies that all modern Slavic languages are derived from ancient Macedonian. If your "Macedonian" is derived from ancient Macedonian on account of the word breg, why not Serbian as well? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  modern macedonian, as well as all slavic languages, has a big bank of indo-persian words. knock-knock macedonia...persia...who influenced who? while no other country in the world exept greece speaks greek.79.126.230.74 (talk) 00:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Shea and ''breg''

message: Macedonian Hellenic A,MAcedonian is Hellenic
"The ancient language of the Macedonian kingdom in N. Greece and modern Macedonia during the later 1st millennium BC. Survived until the early 1st millennium AD. Not to be confused with the modern Macedonian language, which is a close relative of the Slavic Bulgarian."
but the Language of FYrom is SlavicMegistias (talk) 21:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shea is unreliable in all aspects.Megistias (talk) 09:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancient macedonian is Hellenic  

message: NW greeksNothing to with slavsMegistias (talk) 22:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It shows that Shea is a hoax and unreliable.Megistias (talk) 23:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That has nothing to do with Shea, and Dr.Shea is defiantly more reliable then some pseudo-Wikipedia wannabe historian.Ireland101 (talk) 04:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Keep dreaming but stop disrupting and pov-pushing in pagesMegistias (talk) 09:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You and your tag team friends are the only ones pov pushing by adding un sourced wrong paragraphs to the article.Ireland101 (talk) 04:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: We have.Slavs had nothing to with ancient Macedons nor is their language today as Shea absurdly claims.Megistias (talk) 11:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Um, Theresa, no scholar links the Ancient Macedonian language to modern Macedonian; it's simply a case of having the same name for different reasons. I'm not aware of mr. Shea's academic credentials but his book contains other errors (see Kekrops above) as well as an obvious bias regarding the modern Greek-Macedonian dispute which he lets permeate his overall work. 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: His wife is from Fyrom Megistias (talk) 12:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actualy what Dr. Shea is trying to show is the continuity of the Macedonian language from Ancient to present and one example is the word "Bryges", there are no sources to back up the views against this because they are simply wrong. As for the "His wife is from Fyrom" comment, it speaks for itself. Ireland101 (talk) 18:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever your opinion is (it doesn't matter, actually), a source that states scholarly consensus has been provided. As for mr. Shea, do we have any info on his academic credentials or do we just know that he wrote a book expressing his feelings on the Greece-RoM dispute? 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancient Macedons were Greek and Greek speakers 

message: Why was this removed?
", (possibly of Thracian origin)JSTOR: Die Griechischen Vaseninschriften ihrer Sprache nach untersucht by Paul Kretschmer"
Megistias (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably because it conflicts with the nationalist fantasy that slavomacedonians are somehow the descendants of the ancient Macedonians.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Someone please put it back in.Megistias (talk) 21:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bryges as a name 

message: :", and may have originally been a Thracianised tribe of Illyrians."What is this based upon? Megistias (talk) 13:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for this statement 

message: Well, since I've been working on the Dorians someone added the Albanian Brigoi in a bulleted list. The problem is you do not start an article with a bulleted list. But, in order to take it out of the bullets and do a proper write-up we have to know if those Brigoi are considered by anyone to have had the same ancestors in the Balkans as our Bryges, the subject if this article. If they are, we need a proper reference and introductory write-up. If they are not they do not belong in this article but in a new stub with some disambig templates at the proper locations. My offhand guess is the name descends from a common people. If that is so we can put them here for now until we get enough material for a related article. BUT - someone has to do the research! How about you ... or maybe you... or you over there....Dave (talk) 22:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More research guys

message: During disambiguation I have stumbled upon Moschoi link in See also section. No idea which people or region does that refer to. Anybody able to disambiguate? --Ruziklan (talk) 23:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moschoi 

message: Let me be the first on record to state that this hardly constitutes an edit war regarding your sources Jingiby. In fact, I support the literature that explicitly deems the Bryges as a Thracian tribe.
Out of the four sources you provided, two of them are from the 19th century.
*A Geographical and Historical Description of Asia Minor, John Anthony Cramer - 1832, p. 1-2.
*History of Greece, Connop Thirlwall, Dionysius Lardner - 1838, p. 226.
Though these sources are decent, they constitute forms of outdated scholarship. As far as WP:RS is concerned, the Mazorov and Webber citations are perfectly fine to include in this article, because they are modern secondary sources.
*Marozov, Ivan. Ancient Gold: The Wealth of the Thracians. Harry N. Abrams, 1998, , pp. 238-239.
*Webber, Christopher and McBride, Angus. The Thracians, 700 BC - AD 46. Osprey Publishing, 2001, , p. 3. "The Thracians migrated to south-eastern Europe in the 7th millennium. After the 12th century they also settled in Asia Minor, especially in Bithynia and the Troad, with the Brygi becoming ancestors of the Phrygians."
After enhancing the Marozov and Webber citations, I repositioned them in the introductory paragraph in order to reinforce the topic sentence that states the Bryges were a "Thracian people". If you want to ruin my reference tweaks and any attempts made towards improving the quality of this article, then be my guest. Deucalionite (talk) 17:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that "outdated scholarship" is, of course, still reliable for establishing the historiography of a subject, and tracing the development of thought about it.  Herodotus and Strabo may fairly be considered "outdated scholarship" for that matter - but we still reference them, to show what was thought by scholars at one time. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For the sake of writing about the "history of historiography", I absolutely agree with your points. Outside of this realm, however, Wikipedia articles need modern, reliable, verifiable, and accurate secondary sources. Granted, there are exceptions to WP:RS to which William Smith is a case example. But we cannot stretch these exceptions to the point where encyclopedia articles are inundated with potentially erroneous scholarship. This is why we as editors have to constantly take into consideration the fact that a lot has happened in academia since the 19th century. Deucalionite (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that we heavily rely on the "wisdom" of the ancient authors. But this is only because they were a lot closer to whatever events occurred centuries ago. Deucalionite (talk) 17:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Once again, I would stress that past historiography is essential for tracing the development of thought, much as article histories are essential for tracing the development of wikipedia articles, and in the real world these things don't disappear into any memory hole.  Many of our best articles tell what scholars used to think and what the consensus used to be, and readers don't like to be kept in the dark on these things.  I do agree with Future Perfect, that the Phrygian connection is more relevant for the intro, but this is more in response his edit summary "rv. Early 19th-century writers? Useless for modern scholarship."  We can indeed have a section on the 19th century consensus. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jingiby's sources 

message: is just another name for the macedonian tribe that lived on hills. like ezerci- lake people. or brzjaci- fast ones.79.126.230.74 (talk) 00:00, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: bryges-berg-breg

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thread_title:  External links modified