Talk:Jack Mormon

message: I find the following paragraph to be dubious, but I haven't removed it from the article:
:Because of the difficulty in maintaining membership in the church as an unbeliever, it is common for Jack Mormons and other Cultural Mormons to keep their doubts a secret, and maintain a facade of believing in the Church's doctrines, while justifying their inactivity in other ways that will be less likely to cause conflict within the family. One such group founded an Internet community to maintain anonymity, and refers to itself as the New Order Mormons.
I personally know some families of "Jack Mormons".  I haven't discussed with them why they are, what we call "inactive" (non-attending), mostly because they are from an older generation; I used to play with their children.  I know that one of the parents regularly drinks beer.  Their children were baptized but "inactive" as long as I knew them, and I assume that they still are; they have long since moved away.  But in the 40+ years that I've known them, they have been "inactive" and are still members of the church.  The paragraph that I highlighted above gives the wrong impression about maintaining membership for such people.
What I think that you are meaning to discuss are those, who in other churches would be called "heretics".  That is not a term that I have heard used inside the CoJCoLDS to refer to such individuals, but I haven't known any such persons personally.  So as not to confuse the issue, I think that this paragraph needs to be reworded.  Perhaps it would be best to link to "Related Terms" such as "New Order Mormons".  Val42 July 4, 2005 21:55 (UTC)
:I know we're not necessarily voting, but I'd remove or at least revise it, being an overgeneralization. While that may very well be true for many "Jack Mormons," there's many more who make little effort to hide any disinterest or lack of effort on their part in following LDS doctrine... some even embrace the title. However, I'd keep a link to the NOM, but stick it at the end under See Also. On an unrelated note, is there any reason that in one usage the term "Mormonites" is used instead of "Mormons"? Deadsalmon 14:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Jack Mormons''' and membership

message: I'm digging deep in Seminary memory for this one -- but isn't the term "jack" related to the term "jack" (and "jenny") for mules?  Calling something a "jack" (in the nineteenth century) meant it had the general appearance of the real thing, but was actually different in a significant way, i.e. "A mule is not a horse - but sure looks like one."  And -- as used by critics of Mormons and friends of Mormons -- it had a meaning approaching the word "jackass."  The Mormons evidently adopted the term and put a positive spin on it (as they did with "Mormon").  I have no source.  Anyone else remember something like this?  WBardwin 05:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I knew there was something to this.  Evidently the Salt Lake Tribune used the "mule" analogy on Feb 17, 1875.  See:  Bagley, Pat. " 'Jack Mormon' once meant something else" Salt Lake Tribune, January 13, 2008, p. B4.  WBardwin (talk) 09:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Query on source of term?? 

message: This all seems rather irrelevant to the purpose of wikipedia and to Latter-Day Saints in general.  As far as I can tell, there is no general agreement on what this term means now, anyway (I refuse to use it, myself).  When I hear it, it sounds to me like former church member who will not associate with us now.  I guess I am just too young to get it; anyway, I would recommend just making this an article for deletion and getting it out of here. --Matthew 04:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You sound as though you have valuable insight in to this topic.  Please add the content that you see fit. Val42 02:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that this (along with "cultural mormon") should not be a Wikipedia entry (see wikipedia's stance on neologisms) but rather a Wiktionary entry. The fact that third party sources rarely publish on this subject is a good sign that it isn't an appropriate subject for Wikipedia. gdavies 07:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

text: 1845 Quincy (Ill.) Whig 30 Oct. 2/1 *Jack Mormons, and sympathizers abroad may croak and groan over the poor Mormons. 1846 Jack-mormon [see BIG-HEAD 3b]. 1890 Congress. Rec. 2 Apr. 2941/2 In our country we have a genus homo called ‘Jack-Mormon’,..a class of individuals who do not belong to the Mormon church,..yet who are ever found doing the bidding of Mormon priests. 1947 Time 21 July 21/1 The number of backsliding ‘jack-Mormons’ is increasing.
There's also a 1992 book titled In Mormon Circles: Gentiles, Jack Mormons, and Latter-Day Saints . It's a term useful enough that reporters and authors have identified people as belonging to this group. Cool Hand Luke 23:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do we really need this article here? 

message: since when? I don't think an anthropologist would agree with that definition.
15.251.169.70 15:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Mormons for clarification about this. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Mormon as an "Ethnicity"?

message: The passage in the section about political usage "LDS Church membership was made up predominantly of liberal-leaning Democrats until the early 1900s, possibly due to anti-Mormon positions held by the Republican party during the latter half of the 19th Century" is unsourced, and I doubt its accuracy as the Democratic Party pre-New Deal was a predominantly conservative political party. Andrewlp1991 (talk) 06:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "[L]iberal-leaning" is an obvious modern misunderstanding, but it is correct that after the People's Party (Utah) was disbanded and LDS members were encouraged to join national parties, the majority of LDS were Democrats until the end of WWII. Much of this was in reaction to the role that the Republican party played in the late 19th century battles over polygamy, both nationally and locally; this included the way the Republican Party in Idaho disenfranchised LDS in Idaho for the political gain of their local party members. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liberal-leaning Democrats in the 1900s? 

message: I recommend splitting this article into two articles. One would be Jack Mormon, the historical term, the other would be Inactive Mormon(s) (with or without the s, I don't care). I don't think I've ever heard the term Jack Mormon used in reference to inactive members or less-active members outside of Wikipedia. I am not familiar with sources on the subject, but Bushman's 2008 Mormonism: a very short introduction talks about the definition of being "active" in the church on pages 53-55, and talks about "inactive" members on page 107. "Jack," however, doesn't show up at all.  I think the Wikipedia guideline WP:MOSNAME supports me in this. Thoughts? Adjwilley (talk) 17:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Jack Mormon for "less than active" was common usage when I was growing up (was outside of Utah but within the Mormon Corridor). I can give you one example of usage off the top of my head by Jack Dempsey:  -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Common usage in my family as well, both those living in Provo, Utah & Vernal, Utah and now scattered around the country. I still hear the term quite often, especially from older members of the family. Flourish (talk) 15:05, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like I missed that this quote was already in the article. I fixed the ref for it though. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

text: OED includes an example of the usage of "jack mormon" under variants of the noun "jack", and Merriam-Webster Dictionary online includes a definition as well (). -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 21:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In Sojourner in the Promised Land: Forty Years among the Mormons Jan Shipps uses the term in the modern sense as well. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 21:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recommend splitting the article - Jack Mormon and Inactive Mormon