Talk:Cádiz

message: The local pronunciation of Cadiz is NOT the traditional Spanish one of 'ka-diθ", it is more like kaj.
:Please sign yr posts.
:We've got a local pronunciation now, but actually two. It seems that one is the general Andalucian accent and the other the local Caditan one (see, eg, the comment here), but we need some real sources so we can be more specific. — LlywelynII 15:12, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Local pronunciation of Cadiz is needed.''

message: The city of Cádiz is usually refered as "la tacita de plata" (the little silver cup). Can this be considered a nickname? --surueña 08:41, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
: Yes, it can. Cádiz is usually named in that way and "Cái" as well, but that second name is more referred to Cádiz people's pronunciation than a real nickname. --Peejayem 08:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nickname 

message: Homer describes Ithaca as "amphialos" which means: "with a sea on each side"; A perfect description for a place between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic.
Also, the situation described by Homer perfectly matches with how this region was 3200 years ago: the Guadalete delta not yet turned into land and Ithaca being the most westerly situated island but yet closest to the mainland. You can find a map on page 137 of Iman Wilkens latest book; the 2005 edition.
Furthermore, there are other places in the region that sound Homeric: Gerena (pronounced Gerenia) (Nestor!) Pylos, now Pilas, Sparta, now Esparteros mountain, Sidon, now Medina Sidonia (town of Sidon). 212.123.163.102 07:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose the average Wikipedia reader also deciphers "Eratosth. ap. Steph. B. s. v." as "(lost work of) Eratosthenes as quoted by Stephanus of Byzantium, under the entry for Gadeira" just as we all do... --Wetman 18:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea what are those historical names foing in the intro section. They should be moved to a more suitable location, further down, in my opinion. --Asteriontalk 19:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

text: This is cute, but you are aware there actual is a real place really called Ithaca, right? Also between two (different) seas? (Also, the Atlantic wasn't a 'sea'  the Greeks thought of it as the World Ocean/River.)  — LlywelynII 15:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cadiz: Ithaca 

message: Pardon me, but I don't see exactly how this articel is related to the subject or why that thing is on top of the talk page. 68.39.174.238 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither do I. I asked the relationship in the wikiproject´s page with no answer: :Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Numismatics#C.C3.A1diz.3F--Garcilaso 12:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually reverted a bot adding the tag a few months ago, but I noticed that the article is in :Category:Ancient mints. That's why it's automatically been tagged for WikiProject Numismatics. It's not really expounded on in the article, but, hey, that's what Wikiproject coordination is for. — Rebelguys2 talk 17:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numismatics? 

message: Someone please include a reference to Camarón de la Isla, who's birthplace is Cádiz (or Cadiz =). He was the most famous and influential Flamenco singer. A lot of his songs are about Cadiz too.
Keep up the good work
Evitavired: I think that he was born in San Fernando, which is just up the coast.  Great singer, I agree.  But, the article should probabably link in from the page relating to the province of Cadiz.
--Evitavired There are some excellent videos of Cadiz on You Tube.  I have attached links to three, which I believe really add something to the page.  I'm not sure whether this is in accordance with Wikipedia policy, and so they may be deleted: it would be a shame if they are though.
:Sorry but we cannot link from YouTube. If you can find the same promotional videos from the original source (e.g. Andalusia Tourist Office) and they have made these available online, you could post that link instead. At it stands, it is not possible to link to copyrighted content posted without consent from the rights owner. Thanks, --Asteriontalk 21:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Camarón de la Isla 

message: I have a red link for a church in the Grotto Santa Cueva where Joseph Haydn's The Seven Last Words of Christ was first performed in 1787.  Is this place still there?  Is there an an article for it?  Thanks.  DavidRF (talk) 07:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grotto Santa Cueva 

message: The decline in population is atributed to (excuse the para-phrasing) 'a lack of high rise housing', 'a new national law governing coastal development that thwarts the possibility of reclaiming land from the sea' and 'the highest unemployement rate in Spain', but no references are given. I think the points listed above (particular geographic situation, laws governing coastal development in spain, one of the highest rates of unemployment in Spain) can all be described (with references) without having to make a link to the population statistics or make statements like'Replacement of these old buildings with high-density apartment projects would allow Cádiz to sustain a higher population.'. Does anyone agree that this section has alot of nonfactual content (politely put)? How does this work, should i go ahead and edit it? Lizard1976 (talk) 17:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population and demographic trends 

message: (moved section to correct place in sequence. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Page organisation: Landmark Builings and Squares

message: Why is there such a short mention of Moorish rule which lasted 400 years? I really don't think a single sentence will suffice for such an extensive and pivotal portion of the history of Cadiz and of Andalusia, and Spain itself. Those who are knowledgeable of the topic or have access to sources PLEASE attempt to expand on this. Much has been made of Cadiz' Roman history, yet nothing of its equally long history under Moorish rule except a dismissive line about how it was "finally reconquered". Disgraceful.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.52.17 (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We could certainly use it, but its history under Roman rule is more important and connected to the people living there now so 'disgraceful' is laying it on a bit thick. Arabic's hard and, while some of the original sources have been translated into English, it's not as common to have good critical commentary alongside making sense of it all. But, yes, someone please add more as you find it. — LlywelynII 02:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moorish rule 

message: Someone seems to have inserted a joke reference to the layout of Cadiz being planned after a suburb of Sacramento, California, which is totally ridiculous. I would just delete it but I don't edit much these days and wanted to bring this up with the group first.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.103.148.141 (talk) 22:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  El Dorado Hills connection 

message: How is there no mention of the Idol of Cadiz?  The gold plated bronze statue built by Phoenicians, destroyed by the Moors; standing 180 feet high for more than 1000 years.
:Kindly sign your posts.
:Added, with sources, although it was (almost) certainly not Phoenician since it was entirely omitted by every source in classical antiquity. It is interesting that it seems to have been a Sudanese African god (possibly with Poseidon's trident) but it really needs its own page (with redirects from Sanam Qadis and Salamcadis) to hold all the different versions of the legends. Just mentioned the main ones here. — LlywelynII 02:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No. This kind of idol is usually associated with Tartessian divinities. Here's some more info: http://www.museosdeandalucia.es/cultura/museos/MCA/index.jsp?redirect=S2_3_1_1.jsp&idpieza=90&pagina=1 124.35.178.162 (talk) 05:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The author of Kitdbu-l-Ja'rafiyah has furnished us with details concerning the tower of Qadis. We shall quote his own words. "In this city," he says, (meaning Qadis) "there formerly stood a square tower, upwards of one hundred cubits high, and built of large blocks of stone, admirably placed one on the top of another, and fastened together by hooks of brass. On the top of the tower was a square pedestal of white marble, measuring four spans, and on it a statue representing a human being, so admirably executed in form, proportions, and face, that it looked more like a living man than an inanimate block. His face was turned towards the Western Sea; he had his back to the north; the left arm extended, and the fingers closed, with the exception of the forefinger, which he held in a horizontal position, pointing towards the mouth of that sea which issues out of the Ocean, and lies between Tangiers and Tarifa, being known by the name of Bahru-z-zokak (the Madiq Jabal Tariq). His right arm was close to the body, as if holding his garments tightly, and in the right hand he bore a stick, with which he pointed towards the sea. Some authors pretend that what he held were keys, but it is a mis-statement; I saw the idol often, and could never discover any thing else but the above mentioned stick, which he held in his right hand in a vertical position, and somewhat raised from the ground; besides, I am assured by the testimony of trustworthy people, who were present or assisted at the pulling down of this idol, that it was a short stick, of about twelve spans in length, having at the end some teeth like a curry-comb. Who was the builder of this tower, with the idol on the top, does not sufficiently appear. Mes'udi, in his 'Golden Meadows,' attributes its construction to al-Jabbar, the same who built the seven idols in the country of Zinj, which are one in sight of the other: but the most probable option seems to be that it was built by some of the ancient kings of al-Andalus to serve as a guide to navigators, from the fact of the idol having his left arm extended towards the Bahru-z-zokak (straits), and pointing to the mouth, as if he was showing the way. There were not wanting people who thought this idol to be made of pure gold; for whenever the rising or setting sun fell on the statue it sent forth rays of light, and shone in the brightest hues like the collar of a ring-dove, blue being the color which prevailed. Thus placed on the top of the tower the idol was like a signal for the Muslim navigators to go in and out of the Ocean, and whoever wanted to sail from any port in the Mediterranean to places in al-Maghreb, such as Lisbon, and others, had only to approach the tower, and then put up the sails, and make for the port whither they wished to go, whether Sale, Anfa, or any other in the western coast of Africa. When in after times this idol was pulled down, it ceased of course to be a signal for navigators: its demolition happened thus. In the year 540, at the beginning of the second civil war, 'Ali bin 'Isa bin Maymun, who was Admiral of the Fleet, revolted at Qadis, and declared himself independent. Having heard the inhabitants say that the idol on the top of the tower was made of pure gold, his cupidity was raised, and he gave orders for its immediate removal. The statue was found to be made of brass, covered only with a thin coat of gold, which, when removed, produced twelve thousand gold dinars. It is a general opinion among Andalusian and African Muslims that this idol exercised a sort of spell over the sea, but that the charm ceased the moment it was thrown down. They account for it in the following manner. There used once to be in the Ocean some large vessels which the Andalusians called karakir, provided with a square sail in front, and another behind; they were manned by a nation called Majus, people of great strength, determination, and much practice in navigation, and who at their landing on the coasts destroyed every thing with fire and sword, and committed unheard-of ravages and cruelties, so that at their appearance the inhabitants fled with their valuables to the mountains, and the whole coast was depopulated. The invasions of these barbarians were periodical—they took place every six or seven years; the number of their vessels was never less than forty, it sometimes amounted to a hundred; they devoured any one they found on the sea. The tower that I have described was known to them, and, following the direction pointed at by the idol, they were enabled to make at all times for the mouth of the straits, and enter the Mediterranean, ravage the coast of al-Andalus, and the islands close to it, sometimes carrying their depredations as far as the coasts of Syria. But when the idol was destroyed by the command of 'Ali bin Maymun, as I have already stated, no more was heard of these people, nor were their karakir (vessels) seen in these seas, with the exception of two that were wrecked on the coast, one at Marsu-l-Majus (the port of the Majus), and the other close to the promontory of al-Aghar."--MuslimKnight786 (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Idol of Cadiz 

message: Well, from the conversation above, it took some doing, but we finally got this at the English common name. Yay, us. Now the rest of the name stuff.
I'm normally all in favor of lumping the foreign names into the first line and letting Wiktionary handle pronunciation, but this page seems special.
The intro sentence was atrocious and the name in various languages was then copied two more times (once in the name section and again in the history section). Go back through the MOS if you don't believe me, but you really don't include all the foreign text if it's already clearly presented elsewhere on the page. It's just needless at that point. (Someone could punch up a table, I suppose, but the current name section seems fine.)
The English pronunciations are the real killer, though. I got one reliable source but it just gave out a list. I'm not sure there are even standard American and British ways of saying this place: younger Brits probably copy "Ibeetha" and older ones something like "Kahdeez" and in America it varies just between Kentucky and Ohio. I found this and it seems pretty interesting (the poems by Edward Lear and Auden rhyming it with "ladies" and "Mercedes" like they were from Kentucky, especially) but we need a more reliable (current) source to use any of it.
We could also use something that explains that /kai/ is actually the local pronunciation and /kath-is/ is just the general Andalucian one, if that's true. — LlywelynII 15:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you people just moving articles back and forth in order to boost your edit count? Is it supposed to impress someone? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Per Engvar, this edit established the usage as American English and that should kindly be maintained. — LlywelynII 17:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:ENGVAR

message: Noting that Frommers and Lonely Planet spell the city Cádiz, is it still true that "Cadiz" in modern Spanish context is an exonym? 
* Cádiz Málaga Spain OR Spanish -Cadiz -Malaga since 2000 gets 3,900 English Books, but interestingly 253 books spell Málaga with an accent but Cádiz without. That's 10% of sources with Spanish fonts that treat Cadiz as an exonym. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Frommers and Lonely Planet

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 16:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Cadiz →  – Frommers has moved from Cadiz (2007) to Cádiz (2012). That might sound like a strange rationale for a move, but 90% of English sources with full fonts since 2000 are treating the city as an endonym "Cádiz" rather than having an English exonym "Cadiz". Although Cádiz harbour was where Sir Francis Drake "singed the king of Spain's beard" in 1587, and 10 years later the British landed and burnt the city to the ground in 1596, it was never a British possession and, whether this is a factor or not, has never had an "English name." Also WP:AT consistency with Province of Cádiz. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are countries (Aragon was at least), this is a city - all Spanish cities on en.wp are fully spelled (I don't know of any exceptions except this one) - compare "He survived the English attack on Cádiz and secretly returned to Peru in 1598." or "Don José Sáenz de Santa María, that distinguished member of Cádiz's enlightened community, was not from Spain but from Mexico, or rather from New Spain". Some evidence will be needed to argue that 90% of English sources are wrong. As for pronunciation Britannica article "Cádiz" gives no hint that there is an "English pronunciation," and Frommers 2012 says "Cádiz (pronounced “Cah-deeth”) was founded, according to legend, by Hercules himself some 3,000 years ago." In ictu oculi (talk) 20:29, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
* When this comes up again, oppose. There are far worse offenders (including almost every Vietnamese article in the encyclopedia), but this isn't the actual  form of the name which is what we should be using. I.i.c. was kind enough to provide links and justifications for xer points, but they just serve to show the numbers were so cherry picked as to be labelled marasquino. A full 10% of sources using Cadiz even when they bother to accent Malaga doesn't speak to the unaccented form being uncommon, let alone "only 10% of English sources with full fonts"; it speaks to it being so very common that even sources preferring endonyms know to avoid it (at least as of 2013). Meanwhile, the overarching policy for Wikipedia pages is explicitly to support English exonyms regardless of local preferences.Obviously willing to defer if there's an overarching policy on Spanish names (like the Vietnamese ones) but that really just means that I should take the argument to the relevant policy board instead of bothering this article's talk page. It's still a local consensus trying to avoid the more  use of  names in favor of the  version. Every page that does something like this just pushes us one step closer to having to use pinyin tones for any Chinese word or name on every page in the encyclopedia.Also, fwiw, BDD may have noticed the very many votes against this name in the discussion above but doesn't seem to have indicated taking them into account. — LlywelynII 11:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: "More recently, some English speakers hypercorrect and attempt to employ the Spanish lisp"
What a retarded piece of information. What is "the Spanish lisp"? A lisp is "a speech impediment in which a person misarticulates sibilants ([s], [z], [ts], [dz]), ([ʃ], [ʒ], [tʃ], [dʒ]).". How is the Spanish sound /θ/ misarticulated in that name?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.146.69.224 (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: First, Dude, "retarded" is not the preferred nomenclature. Second, if you were actually curious, we have an article on the Spanish lisp and you can read up on it. Third, there's nothing wrong with the sound /θ/ in and of itself, but the Spanish use of it in place of every sibilant in their language is definitionally lisping. — LlywelynII 09:43, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You should have taken your own advice and read the article you've linked yourself. The "Spanish lisp" is an urban legend. Spanish speakers can generally pronounce [s] perfectly well. Only the ceceo found in a few places in southern Spain even approaches a "lisp", and is heavily stigmatised. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lol 

message: Cádiz is from Arabic قادس (Qādis), from Latin Gades Bompanigcc (talk) 08:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So, Moors just took Latin name? Why is this comment here? Boo Boo (talk) 01:19, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cádiz