Talk:Charun/Archive2

message: Here is a page by a guy who thought Charun carried a labrys, but changed his mind:  . --Scottandrewhutchins 03:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Axe Man

message: You're stringing together random quotes from sci-fi authors and non-specialists and purposely avoiding noteworthy Etruscanologists in order to promote your own original research agenda.
Larissa Bonfante & Judith Swaddling. Etruscan Myths, University of Texas Press, 2006. p.33:
:"Many scenes feature the two purely Etruscan underworld demons, Vanth and Charu, whose job is **not** to punish the dead but rather to escort them to their final destination. This is the only aspect of the Etruscan Charu, aside from his name, which connects Charu to the Greek Charon, the boatman of the dead."
So much for your "Charun bashes soul" theory. Funny how you recently trolled the French encyclopedia for something to find fault in my own edits but fail to notice these references that just don't compare to children's books like Encyclopedia of Monsters or the works of Alice K Turner (who also wrote Playboy Book of Science-Fiction... ???).--Glengordon01 11:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You should because then you'd be seen as an avid learner, as opposed to a subject-hijacker looking for an ego boost. --Glengordon01 20:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the responses of others on your RFC, you're clearly projecting. --Scottandrewhutchins 20:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Give it up.--Glengordon01 21:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

text: "Funerary ritual was important. The many cruel and bloody scenes of battles, sacrifice, death and dismemberment in funerary art were intended to fulfil a funerary rite, apparently substituting for actual blood sacrifices carried out in honour of the dead."
And then you now understand why I quoted Arnobius who explains that the Etruscans gave offerings like this as a "form of salvation" for the deceased. Massimo Pallottino, another Etruscanologist (not on a par whatsoever with Alice K. Turner, smut author, as explained above), clearly offers doubt about the "hellish" nature of Etruscan afterlife in "The Etruscans" as well. 
So with two authors spreading doubt, de Grummond is alone unless she too offers a healthy balance of perspective in her latest book. Chances are, she will have fallen into the trap of quoting authors who quote authors who quote authors like a game of telephone.
You were more eager to call me "incompetent"  because I didn't share your opinion whatsoever. Now that it's published reality, your foot is deeply lodged in your mouth, having implicated respected academics like Larissa Bonfante in your slander against me.
--Glengordon01 19:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I called you incompentent because you were refusing to understand that you were breaking Wikipedia's credos regarding verifiability and original research with your edits. --Scottandrewhutchins 20:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "I called you incompetent because..." Listen to yourself. Making excuses for your bad behaviour. --Glengordon01 21:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Sentence 1 is false.  Sentence 2 is an outright lie.  Sentence 3 assumes that a person who writes science fiction is forever tainted from writing non-fiction, which is nonsense.  and as for tusks, Charun doe sindeed have tusks in some representations.  This is shown in Emeline Hill Richardson's The  Etruscans:  Their Art and Civilization published by University of Chicago Press.  The tusks don't look like the MIMP figure--they're much smaller and grow form the lower jaw.  This is in a relief on an urn from Chius, which is her plate XLV.  On page 164 she describes Charun as having "great tusks" and on page 242-3, "horrid tusks". --Scottandrewhutchins 02:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Research, Charun doesn't bash souls except in sci-fi land 

message: Something is taken out of context here again:
:"One relief in particular, in the 'Tomb of the Charuns' as Tarquinia, shows two Charuns swinging their hammers at a person's head, though the head, probably that of Laris Pulenas, the nobleman whose tomb it is, no longer survives in the relief due to a preservation mistake. There are two additional Charuns in the picture, and each have sub-names. These are Charun Chunchules, the heavily blistered Charun Huths, Charun Lufe, and the fourth has crumbled away to illegibility."
*1. Laris Pulena, not "Pulenas". (Pulenas means "of Pulena" in Etruscan. That's how the Etruscan animate genitive case works, which is marked with the suffix -s.)
*2. Don't confuse sarcophagus reliefs with murals. There are only two Charun on the relief since the other two winged figures are irrefutably double images of Vanth. Larissa Bonfante explains this very relief *in full*, right down to the rocks and that figure laying next to Vanth on the right, so I suggest you read it. 
*3. Huths just means "of four"... Charun Huths => "Charun of the Four"? Don't think so. They all are "of the four" in that case! Maybe you're paraphrasing again, kinda like the crater/krater mistake you wrote before.
--Glengordon01 02:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's funny you project a Hollywood mindset on me just because I was a film student.  In school, I was regarded somewhat exaggeratedly as being an anti-Hollywood extremist and accused of writing "European Art Cinema" in screenwriting class, basically because I refuse to write a high concept script without at least a stipend, since I'd be bored out of my mind. --Scottandrewhutchins 04:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misquote about Laris Pulena's sarcophagus? 

message: I found where I got the boots reference, this was in Nigel Spivey's Etruscan Art, though it was Charun, not the souls, wearing boots.  You have to remember that I started this page as as stub to be amended later.  With you adding nonsense and OR, it became sooner. --Scottandrewhutchins
Larissa Bonfante is in no shape or form "nonsense" for those that know the subject. --Glengordon01 23:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Boots

message: Would anyone object to archiving the old discussion (before and during page protection)? Durova 15:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At 152 kilobytes, with little sectioning to make navigation easier, and mostly about one topic, I think it's a good idea. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 15:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Archive completed.  Note to editors: standard talk page procedure consists of creating new sections and subsections when necessary, not creating horizontal lines between each poster's comments. Durova 16:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive? 

message: Let's talk about these things (and this time, Scott, do not put your comments INTO mine, please)...
:* a vulture's hooked-nose
I want someone to *cite* which artifact demonstrates this, not just authors but first-hand artifacts. Tuchulcha has a beak but he is a separate deity from Charun.
:* heavy brow ridges
:* large lips
Exaggerations. Cite clear artifact sources or reword.
:* pointed ears like an ass
"Pointed ears" is valid; "like an ass" is Christian bias. The Devil in Europe has a long history of being altered by extra zoomorphic details derived from non-Christian religious substrate, whether it be Celtic, Etruscan, Greek or Roman. Surely no one would claim that Geoffrey Chaucer's Summoner's Prologue is based on Etruscan mythology when he says all the way back in the **14th century** and nestled in **England** far from Etruria:
::"And now has Sathanas," said he, "a tail 
::Broader than of a galleon is the sail. 
::Hold up thy tail, thou Sathanas!" said he
::"Show forth thine arse and let the friar see"
So claiming that Michelangelo et al. were similarly influenced specifically by Etruscans is equally weak. Pinning everything to Etruscan influence is a veritable fool's gold for daydreaming authors.
--Glengordon01 05:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * tusk boars
--Glengordon01 05:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charun's attributes 

message: When one googles "ears of an ass" online we end up with what any sensible person would expect: a big long list of Christian-related links to Satan, not to Charun. Since many authors who casually write about Etruscan history have nothing on which to base their hasty comparisons of Charun to donkeys, aside from Etruscan artifacts themselves which merely show generic zoomorphism, one shouldn't have to fear crucifixion lest one suggest that Etruscan history is being hopelessly warped by continuing fundamentalist bias in the 21st century. Dare I say, the historical revisionism is even abetted by the growing mass hysteria of relativism which seeks to prop up two equally opposing views as somehow "logically equal" as if to say that falsehood is just another form of logical truth.
:"The ass as a symbol of heresy, or of Satan, is represented in a fresco of the catacomb of Prætextatus: Christ, the Good Shepherd, is protecting His flock from impurity and heresy symbolized as a pig and an ass. This representation dates from the beginning of the third century (Wilpert, Pitture delle Catacombe, Pl. 51, 1)." -- Catholic Encyclopedia
Undeniably, the Renaissance was a time when Christianity was center stage and the Etruscans were a distant memory. By this time, so many "pagan" influences from various cultures other than Etruscans, from all around Europe (Celtic, Roman, Scandinavian, Greek) and the Near-East (Zoroastrianism), had been successfully fused into the Christian melting pot. We can hardly dissect something "specifically Etruscan" from Michelangelo's paintings any more than we can extract a quark from a proton. So when an author states overconfidently "Charun has pointed ears... like that of an ass", a devout scholar will recognize that this is just artistic licence and that the author can have in no way proved his assertion based on such a fleeting sentence as this.
So, yes, the Renaissance (the portal though which Etruscans are being muddled with modern Christian folklore by low-grade authors) appears to be that upon which the "ears of an ass" description of Charun is grounded, not actual Etruscan artifacts or writings of that time period. For reasons of author bias and for scant information on Etruscans, references to Etruscan culture, religion and language have to be taken with an extra grain of salt. 
--Glengordon01 07:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charun's attributes (Christian fundamentalist bias)