Talk:Agnosticism/Archive 1

message: Jack and I have been having a disagreement over on Talk:Atheism about the basicmost definition of agnosticism that appears to have spilled over into this article too (probably most appropriately). He seems to have the position that agnostics "don't know" whether a god or gods exist, whereas I am of the position that agnostics believe that the question of whether a god or gods exist is "unknowable" (correct me if I'm wrong, Jack). He offered a number of links to definitions, namely 
, but as far as I can see they all basically supported my position on the matter. I'm going to revert the first paragraph, please discuss here. Bryan 06:45, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you're the one who first changed the article away from the "unknowable" definition that I've been trying to bring back, perhaps you should be the one to  suggest a compromise line that includes both? That's what I brought the issue here to the talk page for. As for your implication that I don't write quality, factually accurate entries, if you feel you must insult me take that to my personal talk page. This page is for discussion of the article. Bryan 07:55, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Basic definition of agnosticism

message: Well, it looks like I'm going to continue arging after all, considering the definitions presented in this section of the article. Specifically, these conclusions:
2. The (strong) Atheist does not agree with the statement God Exists AND agrees with the statement God does not exist
3. The Agnostic (or weak atheist) does not agree with the statement God Exists AND does not agree with the statement God does not exist 
Jack removed the parenthetical comments, which brings the article firmly in line with his personal definition of atheism and agnosticism that I don't believe is correct (except in a colloquial sense, mentioned elsewhere in the article already). An atheist does not have to actively deny the existance of any particular god in order to lack a belief that it exists. Furthermore, this section uses capital-G God throughout, which as per many other arguments (notably Talk:Atheism) is IMO an overly narrow focus on one particular subset of gods. So, here we go again; I'm going to get to work fixing this section up a bit. So much for compromise. Bryan 08:53, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that comment, in that case. I didn't actually think it was your section originally, I intended it to be more of a comment on how I had previously thought I was done with this article. I figured that making these changes would look like I'd agreed to a compromise and then gone back a few days later to revamp everything all over again, which reflects poorly on me rather than on you. Bryan 10:10, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: I had to call them something, and those are the terms that are currently in use on the wiki; I recall there was a bunch of debate over which terminology to use over on the atheism article quite a while back and that's what it settled down to (I personally preferred "implicit" atheism vs. "explicit", but my opinion on that matter wasn't particularly strong). If you feel the logic section still needs work, then by all means go for it. Or, if you like, you could go over to the atheism articles and make sure it's mentioned how infrequently those terms are used in common conversation. That alone shouldn't be a reason not to have articles on them, however; Wikipedia has articles on all kinds of highly technical stuff that's only mentioned in highly technical (or in this case philosophical) situations. Bryan 21:50, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: Firstly, you may want to read that Rejection of God link and consider what labelling atheists as "Amalekites" implies. You'll note that it is completely focused on the Jewish God (which atheism is not), and it is very far from a neutral stance on the subject; the Bible calls for the extermination of the Amalekites. Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean by "Who amoung us, at some odd hour, of some odd, troubled year of our lives, has failed to be an agnostic, if even for a moment? Does this make us atheist!?!" It's not like atheists are lurking around waiting for that one moment of doubt where they can jump out of the bushes and slap their label on people who are otherwise dedicated theists, if that's what you're suggesting. There are various different types of disbelief one can have in gods, and describing those distinctions is not a "contemptable attempt to swell the ranks of this extrordinarilly small minority", it's simply describing the distinctions between the subgroups that are present within it. Some atheists reject the Abrahamic God outright, or reject other specific gods outright, but others simply don't believe in him (or any others). There are shades of gray you don't seem to be seeing. Bryan 06:42, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: Didn't check the article history. I now see that you also created the "Rejection of God" redirect to Amalek, too. Does that mean you're deliberately and explicitly labelling atheists as "Amalekites", rather than the reference being a result of some sort of oversight? This strikes me as being more than merely inaccurate and POV, but also rather offensive and worrisome. By disregarding shades of gray and declaring that people must either accept the existance of God or reject the existance of God you're committing a logical fallacy, too. IMO of course - but if you want to try changing the atheism articles, go ahead. I suspect the consensus that will ultimately develop will be less black-and-white than your description above. Consider that people can choose the position of soft atheism or agnosticism based on lengthy soul-searching, not just out of some sort of "indecision." Bryan 07:45, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm not terribly wedded to the current version, but the original seemed to present a different conclusion as to the definition of agnosticism than the one I've been seeing elsewhere. I could be wrong in the specifics - I didn't intend to totally revamp the logic section when I first started editing it, so I wasn't really prepared for it - but I suspect that whatever the case agnosticism and "weak" atheism are not equivalent (I mentioned a link in Talk:Atheism, for example, about how Immanuel Kant was an agnostic theist ). Perhaps if the section doesn't mesh well here, it might fit in over on the atheism article? Or even the theism one? It seems to be a good way of summarizing the various broad categories of belief, whatever the details. Bryan 02:06, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Banno; I find your edit to be much more constructive. :) Bryan 01:45, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: The version you've been seeing elsewhere is of such low quality that I've been forced to place an accuracy dispute on the atheism page. Please wait until the issue is resolved there before bringing that mess here. Take a look at some impartial outside sources and encyclopedias please. And Banno, I'd personally prefer if you did revert to your original version. To be honest I am strongly in favor of that Jack 02:51, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: Neither Banno nor I want to revert that section, but you've done so anyway. Furthermore, you've gone and sprinkled capital-G Gods throughout the article again - this has been argued with you again and again. I don't have time to fix everything manually, so I'm going to just revert all your changes right now and if you want to extend the edit war from the Atheism article here too then so be it. Bryan 16:15, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How long can he put his POV and capital-G gods everywhere before he is considered a troll? He knows what happens when he does that and yet still does seemingly just to get a rise out of people. MikeCapone 16:22, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, I've never butted heads with someone like this on an article before. He's given me an entry over at Wikipedia:Conflicts between users#User:Bryan Derksen (did one for Lord Kenneth too), so presumably lots of people will be noticing what's going on here soon and some sort of consensus will be reached. Bryan 01:45, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: And your adding it excludes the gods worshipped by even more people. Reverting again, nothing new here. Bryan 07:05, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Logic of Agnosticism section

message: It is always interesting to see how an argument is treated after publication on Wiki. 
I had quite intentionally left the second-order predicate (now inserted as 'belief' by Bryan) somewhat ambiguous. I did this for the sake of brevity, and also because I think it makes the argument easier to understand. The argument is useful in countering naïve arguments to the effect that agnosticism is nothing but watered-down (weak) atheism or theism, because it demonstrates that the position is logically distinct from both.
Consider the general form of the argument, letting p be some proposition, and G be some second-order predicate: 
There are four possibilities: G(p); G(~p); ~G(p); ~G(~p)
Adding a conjunction gives four possible combinations:
#  G(p)  . ~G(~p)
#  G(~p) . ~G(p)
# ~G(p)  . ~G(~p)
#  G(p)  .  G(~p)
The point of the argument is to show that for any suitable second-order predicate, there are four, not two, possible attitudes.
Substitute god exists for p, and believes that for G, and you have the argument as presented by Bryan. (4) implies G(p.~p), and so can be dismissed. (3) implies ~G(p.~p), which is consistent, and  clearly represents a coherent possibility between theism and atheism. 
But substitute knows that for G, and one derives an analogous argument. The agnostic claims no knowledge of the existence or non-existence of god. Bryan’s concern to show agnosticism’s independence was better served by the previous rendition of the argument than by his version.
As was said in the original version, it is not necessary to draw a distinction between belief and knowledge for the sake of this argument, since the conclusion drawn is the same for each. Again, the argument shows that the agnostic position is logically distinct from theism and atheism.
I would recommend removing Bryan’s addition of I believe that… from the argument, and returning to the original agrees with the statement…, which covers both knowledge and belief, and which I had used advisedly. 
If returning to the original is unacceptable, I would suggest removing the argument altogether, since as it stands, it has no real purpose within the article.
Banno 20:52, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not terribly wedded to the current version, but the original seemed to present a different conclusion as to the definition of agnosticism than the one I've been seeing elsewhere. I could be wrong in the specifics - I didn't intend to totally revamp the logic section when I first started editing it, so I wasn't really prepared for it - but I suspect that whatever the case agnosticism and "weak" atheism are not equivalent (I mentioned a link in Talk:Atheism, for example, about how Immanuel Kant was an agnostic theist ). Perhaps if the section doesn't mesh well here, it might fit in over on the atheism article? Or even the theism one? It seems to be a good way of summarizing the various broad categories of belief, whatever the details. Bryan 02:06, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Banno; I find your edit to be much more constructive. :) Bryan 01:45, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: The version you've been seeing elsewhere is of such low quality that I've been forced to place an accuracy dispute on the atheism page. Please wait until the issue is resolved there before bringing that mess here. Take a look at some impartial outside sources and encyclopedias please. And Banno, I'd personally prefer if you did revert to your original version. To be honest I am strongly in favor of that Jack 02:51, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: Neither Banno nor I want to revert that section, but you've done so anyway. Furthermore, you've gone and sprinkled capital-G Gods throughout the article again - this has been argued with you again and again. I don't have time to fix everything manually, so I'm going to just revert all your changes right now and if you want to extend the edit war from the Atheism article here too then so be it. Bryan 16:15, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How long can he put his POV and capital-G gods everywhere before he is considered a troll? He knows what happens when he does that and yet still does seemingly just to get a rise out of people. MikeCapone 16:22, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, I've never butted heads with someone like this on an article before. He's given me an entry over at Wikipedia:Conflicts between users#User:Bryan Derksen (did one for Lord Kenneth too), so presumably lots of people will be noticing what's going on here soon and some sort of consensus will be reached. Bryan 01:45, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: And your adding it excludes the gods worshipped by even more people. Reverting again, nothing new here. Bryan 07:05, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Logic of agnosticism: Formal argument

message: behold the logic of agnosticism article I reinserted. Its a clear factual improvement, even if the form and method of presenting the information might need tweaking. Neither of you guys can comprehend someone believeing "God exists AND God does not exist"? Jack 14:30, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem definitely not solved, and you can't just declare it to be so. I don't have time to go over this right now, but at this point I consider you to be a strongly biased editor with a clear agenda, and everything you do here is suspect. Later this evening I'm going to go over all your changes and I'm sure I'll be making plenty of changes of my own to them. If anyone else is following this talk: but not talk:Atheism, take a look over there at some of the stuff Jack considered to be an example of an "unbiased" encyclopedia article that Wikipedia should strive for -  in particular. Bryan 16:07, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem Solved