Talk:Gothic rock

message: This is an article (subject) which can only be accurately written and edited by persons who have been lifelong members of the European Goth subculture from it's inception in 1982. Those who do not meet this criteria have no business attempting to make assessments of a subcultural history they know little or nothing about.  So please leave the writing and editing to those who know first hand - Thanks!79.230.107.17 (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not how Wikipedia works. Please read the links I posted on your talkpage, which explain these issues. In the meantime this talkpage is for discussion of major changes. The changes you have made to this article, which introduce, among other issues, original research and do not conform to the guidelines on neutral point of view need to get consensus here before being implemented.--SabreBD (talk) 00:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

text: You should particularly read WP:Verify. I am afraid you telling us that you were present from 1982 is not relevant in Wikipedia. Your experiences are original research and Wikipedia is not the place for these. It is also important for Wikipedia to maintain a neutral point of view, which your edits do not do. You seem to be suggesting that deathrock is distinct from gothic rock and that gothic rock is not a musical genre and have made changes that now mean the text does not reflect the reliable sources used in this article (this is apart form the formatting problems that your edits have created: removing the lead and infobox, which are important parts of this article). If you have a case for these changes and can supply reliable sources, you need to bring those points here and gain a consensus for your changes. Otherwise they will almost certainly be reverted. You should also be aware of the WP:3RR, which you are in danger of breaking.--SabreBD (talk) 13:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

text: I am not sure how to respond to all this. These seem to be unsourced changes and that constitute original research, which is to be avoided on Wikipedia. It is probably not helpful to post all the proposed changes here, but better to concisely summarise what you are trying to do and what exactly are your reliable sources.--SabreBD (talk) 09:40, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

text: I wanted to bring it up in the past, but I thought people would brand me as nitpicking. Wikipedia, and Americans all you can do is shake your head. Anyone old enough from the late 80's know the term was simply "Goth". After it became mainstream in the U.S/Canada in the late 90s and  well after 2000's American kids started adding the rock...See "Punk Rock". Americans cant say it without the rock for some reason. Well its obvious its rock music.Starbwoy (talk) 23:37, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note regarding editing of Goth related articles 

message: The bands which directly infuenced the evolution of "Goth" music are (in chronological order): Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Virgin Prunes, The Cure,Reynolds, Simon. pp429, 2005, The Sisters of Mercy, Southern Death Cult, Specimen, Alien Sex Fiend, Sexbeat, The Venomettes, Sex Gang Children, Clan of Xymox, and Dead Can Dance. Dave Vanian of The Damned was an obvious influence on Goth fashion style, although the band has never been in any way dark or gothic in musical terms.
Whilst the person who wrote the above is probably right that these bands influenced Goth, they were not all Goths by any means.
The article makes some effort to distinguish between bands that influenced the Goths and were admired by them and those that actually were 'Gothic'. However it seems to confuse the issue repeatedly and a bit more clarity in this regard seems desirable. The term gothic (small 'g'!) was often used adjectivally (rather than in reference to a genre) of 'post-punk' bands like Joy Division, the Banshees, The Cure, The Birthday Party, Killing Joke, Bauhaus etc. These were distinct from 'true' Goth bands like Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim etc. (this can be confusing as the Sisters have themselves rejected the term just as the Birthday Party and Killing Joke did). If you went to a Cure gig in the late eighties you'd be very conscious of the different camps by the way people were dressed. You'd have your general indie kids (generally no make up and not chromatically challenged in the wardrobe department), then there'd be the guys with Robert Smith hairdos, make up, all in black (usually black denims and baggy jumpers). They weren't Goths. They were the obsessive Cure fans. Also in black and heavily made up with dyed black hair, but usually with piercings and a penchant for leather, rubber, bondage gear, studded dog collars, wrist bands, belts etc were the actual goths. Easy to spot the difference. The Goths adopted the post punk likes of the Cure, yet whilst those bands may've been gothic, they certainly weren't Goths.
In regards to music and ideology drawing strict lines is always questionable but I would point to the Sisters of Mercy's self proclaimed vision of their look and sound as the culmination and pointlessness of all prior rock cliches. The same can be said for the absurdities of the likes of the Nephilim. The more theatrical post punk bands (Banshees, Cure, Birthday Party) were adopting a look that was expressionistic rather than ironic. Similarly post punk music was broadly speaking expressionistic in tone -seeking to expand the vocabulary of rock music. By contrast the Goths propounded a millenialist, fin-de sciecle attitude that everything had been said and done and their music and image reflected a nihilism founded on this. 
As for the Damned they certainly weren't Goths to start with and their graveyard imagery was pure comedy, but they later tried to pose as Goths in order to cash in (indeed one could argue that the Banshees did this later on as their popularity waned too, and even the Cure if a bit more passively). General blackblood (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Goth music

message: It should be noted that the outdated term Gothic rock has become obsolete, (much as the terms "Groovy" and "Hipster"), given that the term Rock with it's 1950's Rock and Roll roots, is extremely limiting and no longer relevant to 21st century music and subculture. 
Rock music by definition is based on 4/4 time signature 12-Bar R&B (Blues), with a back beat provided by drums, and a rhythm provided by bass and guitar.
Goth music does not require any of these elements, it can include any imaginable rhythm, combination of rhythms or polyrhythms, or can be completely devoid of all rhythm, with no key or time signature, no beat, no drums, no bass, no guitar or any stringed or percussion instruments of any kind. Goth can be a drone or complete silence. Goth can be white noise or ambient sound or absolutely anything the artist requires it to be as an instrument of expression.  Goth music is a free art form, which can be as avant gard, experimental or as conventional as the artist composing it.  
The term "Rock" therefore has no meaning in such a context.  
The concept of Genre itself is nothing short of a pair of creative handcuffs without a key.  
Virtually all existing "Goths" agree that the term Goth is now universally applied to both goth music and goth subculure, without the need for any genre tags. The term "genre" being solely a marketing tool for the music industry.79.230.107.17 (talk) 23:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure how to respond to all this. These seem to be unsourced changes and that constitute original research, which is to be avoided on Wikipedia. It is probably not helpful to post all the proposed changes here, but better to concisely summarise what you are trying to do and what exactly are your reliable sources.--SabreBD (talk) 09:40, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

text: I wanted to bring it up in the past, but I thought people would brand me as nitpicking. Wikipedia, and Americans all you can do is shake your head. Anyone old enough from the late 80's know the term was simply "Goth". After it became mainstream in the U.S/Canada in the late 90s and  well after 2000's American kids started adding the rock...See "Punk Rock". Americans cant say it without the rock for some reason. Well its obvious its rock music.Starbwoy (talk) 23:37, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology - Goth vs "Gothic Rock"

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