Talk:List of commercial failures in video games/Archive 1

message: The pelican article is confusing. Its like two sentences and the second is a run-on that makes absolutely no sense. I'm not sure how to fix it, though, as I don't know anything about the console 24.97.27.202 15:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pelican 

message: I don't see why Live and Reloaded is on the list. The game has been out only a few months and has neither been a huge success nor a huge failure. ShadowMan1od
:It should be on the list, as it has sold very poorly (admittedly nowhere near as badly as Grabbed by the Ghoulies, but still nowhere near a success). Please see the Rareware article for more information! NP Chilla 12:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone removed this without explanation.  I'm putting it back. Ace of Sevens 18:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Live and Reloaded? 

message: I think that the NPOVing that Y0u made today was unnecesary, and just adds weasel phrases (as I saw them called...somewhere, don't remember where).  It doesnt really have a point.  I thought I would look for other opinions before reverting.  What are your thoughts? Kertrats 23:44, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Y0.u's NPOVing 

message: Isn't this a bit of a US-centric view of the console, given they've sold pretty well in 3 out of 5 markets? Over that, I could argue Nintendo 64 should be on the list, after failing to do anything in a large part of the european market (thanks to their third party localized distribution). wS 05:24, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree, SMS was a success, even in the US it was a great system, NES just outsold it.  People who had a chance to play SMS and NES here (New Jersey) that I know all love the SMS more.  --Tonsofpcs 05:34, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As it carried over from the commercial failures article, I'll remove it from the list until Sunday, unless anyone opposes. The identity of the original editor should now be buried under dozens of edits to ask directly. wS 12:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be a nice feature to have in mediawiki, to take some text from an article, and get the software to show you when and by whom it was introduced into the article. Jacoplane 14:42, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not really feasible, which is why users should ALWAYS use the edit summaries when they add or remove something (whether major or minor). I usually end up maxing out the length allowable (hope they allow even longer one day!), but it means anyone looking over the history has a good idea of what I changed; sometimes my summary is longer than the edit itself! So if the summary had been filled in with great detail you could merely look and see "added SMS to list, b/c it failed abysmally here in US" or whatnot. Master Thief GarrettTalk 00:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The SMS was very, no, ludicrously successful here in NZ; absolutely everyone had one, it was even more common than a VCR or stereo; on the other hand I've never ever seen a NES here so maybe they had no alternative purchase? But then again it was a hella cool system, so even given a choice people might have chosen it over the NES... Master Thief GarrettTalk 00:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Master System a failure 

message: How was the Game Gear a failure in North America? --Tonsofpcs 05:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Its article says "Today, the Game Gear is widely considered to have been a failure"; Perhaps it was a partial success (probably the third most successful after the Gameboy and PSP), but, like the Saturn, it never gained any purchase in the market for long. Granted, I'm tempted to simply make an entry for "All handheld consoles other than the Game Boy series and PSP" and be done with it. Nifboy 16:59, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the Game Gear was crucified in sales by the Game Boy (as was the Lynx), so I'm not sure why it was removed from the list. Oh, and Nifboy is mistaken about the Game Gear being the "third most successful [handheld] after the Game Boy and PSP" - the Nintendo DS has sold far more than Sony's system in all territories. NP Chilla 16:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I consider the DS a GB system, regardless of whether it has a "Game Boy" appended to it or not. Also mind that my comment was made in June of last year, when the PSP had been out for less than three months and we didn't have good sales numbers yet. Nifboy 18:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Game Gear a failure 

message: My mistake removing those italics for software titles. However, I feel that the edits made by User:Chill Pill Bill that removed the TOC are not really an improvement. I think the list is too long to not have a TOC. So I suggest adding the "===" before and after the title of each item of the list instead of "; ... :". What is the consensus???? Jacoplane 02:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the page's function as a list takes priority over its function as describing each individual failure. Each entry is not supposed to be terribly long; if it is, it should be moved to the relevant article. And since it's a list, it doesn't get a TOC, since the list itself effectively is the TOC. Nifboy 02:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree with Nifboy. :-) Anyways if you want to compromise, we could add two more subsections like separating the console/handheld systems and peripherals and in addition make a new section called failed game companies like ION Storm even though it will get redundant because of ION Storm/Daikatana. Then the "table of contents" will then appear in this article. --Chill Pill Bill 04:37, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No I'll go with the reasoning of Nifboy. I guess that makes sense. I've been looking around and very long lists  seem to have the "compacttoc", but that won't work as this. So I'm fine with leaving the article like this. Jacoplane 13:22, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article layout 

message: Hm, what is Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing doing here ? While it is indeed one of the top contenders to the worst game ever, it was on a budget range label that sells their games for $19.99 or less, and (as it is easy to tell) very cheaply done. Looking at the Activision Value, I'm sure a lot of those games sold worse than Big Rigs while having higher production values. wS;✉ 05:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. This is more or less why a similar list of video and computer games considered to be the worst ever or whatever was proposed; stuff like Big Rigs and Custer's Revenge simply doesn't belong here. Taking it off now. Nifboy 06:30, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The line between a failure and a downright awful game 

message: They cannot be considered failures because was not mainstream products. PSX shipping until today in Japan to High-tech Home theater segment and PS2 Linux is a programmer tool. --Rick Browser 14:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Isn't a mainstream product, isn't a regular videogame console, it's a piece for home theater segment. DVD Recorder and HUGE HD inside doesn't mean mainstream. --Rick Browser 16:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The PSX was meant to be a mainstream console but it sold poorly so Sony cut it off.  It is just like the Nintendo 64 DD Jedi6 21:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the sources which show why it was not just a niche product, as well as how its failure had wider implications for Sony's strategy as a whole.--GoldDragon 20:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is original research. PSX was never mainstream product or home console substitute model. --Rick Browser 14:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PSX and PS2 Linux 

message: :As I recall, Sega of Japan was losing money hand over fist, and the retired president donated millions of dollars of his personal forture to keep the company afloat, Sega of Japan killed the Dreamcast because of their years of miscalculations and financial problems even though it was doing modestly well in the US at the time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.4.176.97 (talk) 08:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt the Dreamcast sales that are listed here.  If it had sold 10 million they wouldn't have cancelled it so quickly.  Also didn't SSega say they needed at least 5 million sales to stay in the business? Jedi6 21:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This was way more than sales that were the issue here behind the Dreamcast being terminated. Although you can't really call it a failure. It did develop a rather large library of titles in a very short time, and it had good sales in generall. It was later on when third party developer support was lacking. Followed by Microsoft gearing up for XBox and abandoning CE/DirectX support for the platform beyond release (so you were locked into development using Visual Studio 6.0 only)... let's face it Microsoft used Sega to get their feet wet before jumping in. Also factored in was the poor health of Isao Okawa (who used his personal funds to bankroll the launch of the platform) and the persistent demands of the CSK board of directors to dump Sega operations. Dropping the Dreamcast was an effort to appease both the board and shareholders. Isao was the driving vision of keeping Sega going and if you'll note, CSK dumped Sega almost immediately after Isao died in 2001. In several interviews before he died he protested challenges from the Board, spoke of his vision for Sega and lamented the likely future as he knew was in store for the business as his illness was getting worse and he knew he didn't have long to live. It's pretty sad really. BcRIPster 17:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreamcast Sales? 

message: Does this count as a true game system, or as an accessory? NP Chilla 13:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it's more correctly identified as a peripheral, as it needed the N64 to work, much like the Sega CD/32X.Rob T Firefly 01:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nintendo 64DD 

message: *BSX Satellaview
*X-Band
*Star Wars Galaxies in Japan, console attempt
*Xbox in Japan
::Please give references. Jedi6-(need help?) 03:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it is worth noting how badly both Xbox systems have sold in Japan, as even the GameCube is outselling both systems put together (according to the latest Nintendo Official Magazine UK). Such a colossal failure could be worth a mention - if we can group together lots of Sonic the Hedgehog flops, perhaps we can do this for Microsoft's systems (both of which are currently selling for a loss in profit). NP Chilla 12:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc 

message: Are you sure about this? I mean, Nintendo never actually bothered using these at all, and virtually only manufactured them 'cos Sega asked them to. In fact, this isn't a commercial failure at all - Nintendo never thought they would sell a trillion adapters, and they still made a profit on every adapter sold. NP Chilla 20:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. I wouldn't call it a "failure" since Nintendo never planned on having any real online support in the first place. Removing it now. Nifboy 22:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nintendo GameCube Network Adapters 

message: The entry for Psychonauts states that it "has led to the recent demise of Majesco". Aside from being in the immediate tense, this strike me as innacurate because to the best of my knowledge Majesco was on the rocks even before the game flopped, in which case 'led' is too strong a word. Can anyone confirm this? --Tom Edwards 13:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychonauts 

message: This ought to be listed since it was undobutably a factor in the fall of Mattel Electronics during the crash. Endlessly delayed, overpriced, underpowered, and it brought about legal action against the company. Details: http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/june03/dumbestmoments/index14.shtml --Paul Soth 06:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intellivision Keyboard 

message: The game has been retitled and is being redeveloped as (for all intents & purposes) a new MMO.  The major failure occurred when the game was called Mourning or one of its variants.  Ergo, the failure should be listed under that name.  I added a paragraph outlining the redevelopment and the new name, which should suffice. Doggie Yum Yums 01:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mourning Online / Thrones of Chaos 

message: I don't think Unity should be on here - unlike pretty much everything else on this page, it was never finished, let alone released. Also, even if it had been released and sold poorly, I don't think this would warrant being classed as a "major commercial failure". Being developed by one person, it presumably wouldn't have had to sold many copies to break even. Plus, as a somewhat unusual/niche game, few would have expected it to sell vast numbers. Arganoid 17:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, removed. Nifboy 00:02, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unity 

message: Why is this section blank? While the PS3 has many faults and glories, the cloudy future of the console should be more apparent at the end of 2007. I expect it to fail hard, but I won't deny the possibility of something else happening, like not failing. I believe the 360 already has too much momentum, and the PS3 only has one good exclusive, which is underrated and shadowed by Gears of War. --Can Not 08:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Playstation 3 

message: This article is all original research, no?  It should be deleted, right?--Jimbo Wales 19:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Little, if any of this is OR.  Most of these are sourced in the linked articles.  It would be worth doing a clean-up, though. Ace of Sevens 19:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Ugh yes, this one's ugly. To begin with, the definition of "commercial failure" given in the article is entirely worthless; second, most entries don't even describe commercial failures by any stretch of imagination, they describe games/systems that someone thought sucked. I've removed all entries lacking references -- including entries with references that supported claims other than that of being a commercial failure. Feel free to add back any items, with references. Fredrik Johansson 19:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Definitely needs to be cleaned up. At this point I do see no point in this article, but if we add more flops and sales data, then we can definitely keep this article going. just no OR.--guitarhero777777 22:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Err, Who deleted all of the content? Never heard of the  tag? Dwayne Kirkwood 03:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  is not the proper solution to an article that sucks as badly as this one is permanently destined to suck.  The right answer is to delete it.  I really hate the overuse of  as an excuse to keep, for even one second, total garbage.--Jimbo Wales 22:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Can we have a policy page on this? Fredrik Johansson 22:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think certainly that the article ought to be moved, as suggested, inter al., at its AfD, to Computer and video games that have been considered to be commerical failures, after which, of course, the ascription of the subjective term commerical failures will no longer be made by the project but by reliable sources to which one might link, à la Films that have been considered the greatest ever or Films considered the worst ever, such that WP:OR and WP:NPOV concerns should be allayed.  I tend to look with disfavor on such lists in any event (WP:NOT), but there seems to be a clear consensus for their inclusion, so it would surely be sensible for us to rework the article in order that it should be consistent with the several extant considered to have been articles.  Joe 04:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you on both points, i.e. that (a) I tend to look with disfavor on such lists in the first place but that (b) if we must have them, we must require that we work from extant lists compiled by others.--Jimbo Wales 14:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: Unless citations are added, I am considering removing PSP. Since the unit is still for sale, being developed for, on shelves in stores, and according to Sony, selling well, the console can't be considered a failure yet. However, perhaps a section on UMD Movies could be done. Or, otherwise, the PSP article could be cited, in which cause it can stay. Otherwise i'll remove it later today. Dwayne Kirkwood 19:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking about adding UMD, since that has failed and almost every movie studio has dropped support for the medium. The PSP itself, however, has sold millions in the U.S. alone, therfore not making a failure. However, in the eyes of the gaming world, it is seen as a failure because it hasn't beaten the DS yet. guitarhero777777 19:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do UMD movies really belong in an article about video games? Ace of Sevens 04:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gaming accessories. It was basically an accessory inside the PSP.guitarhero777777 04:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. We could either put the fact that the UMD is not as popular here, or (perhaps more suitably) in the same list where Betamax et al are listed (the name of the list temporarily eludes me). We probably should remove the PSP (even though, according to Nintendo's official figures and the articles for each system, the DS is thrashing it in sales). NP Chilla 16:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: UMD was a proprietary format that died because of how useless, expensive, and proprietary it was. PSP did not fail, because you can play old PS2 games or illegally play other games, depending on what side the game spectrum you live in. --Can Not 13:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PSP 

message: Since arcade games are unique in that - being built as hardware units dedicated to running one specific software program - they could fail for either hardware or software reasons, and because they have a totally different market dynamic than games and consoles purchased by household users, I created a separate section for the arcade games on the list so that we don't have to worry about whether to list them under "hardware" or "software" (as we previously had them in both areas). I also got rid of the section on Laserdisc games - I wrote it myself some months ago, and while I do have sources I think that the Laserdisc video game article is sufficient to cover the topic. What I was thinking about though, was since this article is getting ridiculously large now that we're adding all these citations on top of all these games and consoles, maybe we should instead of deleting the article consider spinning off the various parts of it. So that instead of one big article, we have a smaller article listing hardware failures (or "perceived to be" failures, however you want to word it), another listing software failures, another listing arcade failures, and so on. Thoughts?--Zequist 17:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arcade Games 

message: Without citations for a lot of the entries, this article borders closely on OR. Many of these listings however are well known examples of failures in the industry. But until someone references outside material, the entries will look completely abitrary(A Fork in the Tale entry comes to mind). Since the CVG community has deemed this an important article, I'm suggesting we move all unverified/uncited entries into List of commercial failures in computer and video gaming/Unverified until they have been verified. That way this article won't look like some abitrary fanboy bashing list. --Mitaphane talk 15:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: Now that the AfD has passed, it's time to consider an article split, as it's 67k at the moment and is only going to get larger. Some editors at the AfD wanted to excise the software portion completely, however, I think it's worthy of its own article, but again - citation and sources being absolutely required for each entry. Many, many games are commerical failures, it's worth mentioning titles like Pac-Man and ET for the 2600, Dominion and Psychonauts which significantly contributed to bringing down companies and/or were often cited as major failures in the media. 
Also, many didn't like this article's name either. So, what should these articles be named? List of major commercial hardware failures in computer and video gaming (and replace hardware with software for the split article)? It's probably going to be a pretty long title for clarification, I suppose. --SevereTireDamage 11:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article split and rename 

message: Seeing all the debate about citing sources on this article, I dedided to completely re-write the section on The Last Express, removing some copyvio material, and extensively citing sources.  What do you think?  Anything missing? Green451 18:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''The Last Express'' rewrite 

message: In the interest of being honest with ourselves, I've removed every article lacking a reference, and am instituting a "Refs or GTFO" policy, cribbed from the list of Wii games. Yes, this means Daikatana is no longer on the list, but honestly, it shouldn't be that hard to find a decent reference for it and pull old prose out of the archive (or write even better newer prose). Nifboy 01:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stabby Stab 

message: Where's the Neo Geo for console failures? JAF1970 22:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Curiously, it wasn't even in the list before I killed all the uncited entries. Remember the big green box at the top of the page. Nifboy 05:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the any of the Neo*Geo systems were ever actually considered to be failures though. While they had a home market, they never pretended to compete with anyone...  so I really don't see it fitting on this page. The hand helds had a reasonably sized user base from what I recall and a decent library (especially in Japan)... but they did launch it in hopes of competing with the GameBoy... You would have a better case for the Neo*Geo Pocket Color of all of them as the company tanked not to long after launch... but then again I don't recall any formally calling it a failure either. BcRIPster 22:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo Geo 

message: I remember Toonstruck being featured in Next Generation magazine as one of the costliest commercial flops. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arcadina (talk • contribs) .
:It was, once I finish up with its entries in the magazine project. I will start adding content and references from that article. —Mitaphane talk 00:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it be possible to have an article on "lost video game" technologies or consoles and games that were never to be? There are separate articles on some of the big ones, but perhaps a list type of article would be helpful?  I'm thinking about the unrealeased Jaguar II, the never finished SNES-CD, the cancelled Thrill Kill, etc.  There's many examples of consoles, add-ons, and systems that were planned or even developed past prototype phase and a really fascinating article could cover the unrealized gems of video game history, or at least a helpful list of unrealeased but planned consoles and the same for games?  Best, --164.107.92.120 01:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well we already have the article Vaporware and its related list. —Mitaphane ?|! 21:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toonstruck 

message: This has been removed to varying degrees over time and added back. For gamers who followed the history of the Virtual Boy or are Nintendo fans, the whole story of the Virtual Boy is a sad tale from start to finish and left everyone scratching their heads (and rubbing their eyes for many reasons) throughout. Both stories were tied together in the media at all times when Mr. Yokoi died, and it was that note of final tragedy that added an extra layer of myth to an already puzzling product. If you're not going to mention his death, then don't mention him. And if you're not going to mention biographical info on the creators, then that data should be stripped from the descriptions of every item on this page. I'm ready for an argument here to figure this out, so jump in with your thoughts, I'm all ears. BcRIPster 22:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, '"tragically" is pov' is something I can understand. Please forgive my outburst :) BcRIPster 22:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't had anything to do with this, but the death is irrelevant. If someone wants to find out more about him, they can click on his name. It's like adding something like 'he later got divorced' Chopper Dave 23:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  VB info and Gunpei Yokoi story arc 

message: In shear commercial terms, shouldn't the Xbox be listed as well?  I don't have a source for it on hand, but I could've sworn that I heard on G4 (ugh.... I hate saying that) that Microsoft technically lost money every single quarter that the Xbox was on the market.  RPH 17:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Towards the end they started to make money. Anyhow, without a good reference, no new entries will be added to the page. Chopper Dave 19:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Losing money != failure. Particularly for Microsoft, which can afford to bleed money for years if it'll eventually give them a leg to stand on. Nifboy 19:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nifboy is right. The success or failure of a console involves many factors, of which money is only one (otherwise almost every console ever made would be a failure). There are also issues like: did the number of units sold meet expectations? If sales were bad, were they bad in every major global market, or just in North America? (a flop here that became a runaway success in Japan and Europe wouldn't generally be considered a "failure") Were the customers who did buy it generally happy with it? Was it easy to the average person to plug in and use, or did you need a masters in computer science to get it working? Were the controllers both durable and user-friendly? How big of a game library did it have - did it get a lot of third-party developer support, or did it only have a handful of games because it was too difficult to design for? And there are plenty more things you could take into account. There's a reason that only a handful of consoles are on this list out of the dozens and dozens released in the last 30 years - only a select few like the Virtual Boy and Jaguar have been complete and total failures. Philips, for instance, even managed to partially redeem the CD-i after that flopped as a game console by selling it as a multimedia player to other niche markets.--Zequist 22:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, but as you said, there are multiple types of failure.  This article's about commercial failure, so a product that loses money would have to qualify.  Here's an article on the recent failure of hte 360 to turn a profit, and I'll look around to see if I can find a citation one way or the other in regards to the original Box itself:  http://kotaku.com/gaming/lol-they-made-a-brown-zune/xbox-biz-still-losing-money-for-ms-255654.php RPH 04:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we added that, we would have to add almost every other console in here as well. Every single console loses money. They are actually all made to lose money. The console producers hope to make that profit back through the game sales. Also, in sheer sales numbers, I believe Xbox sold 13 million units worldwide, which would constitute success. guitarhero777777 05:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the Wii's making money right off the bat, but that's besides the point.  I know that the vast majority of consoles lose money on console sales alone, (and I'd never claim that the Xbox or the 360 were failed systems, I love my Xbox for instance) but what I wanted to point out was the notion that Microsoft lost money even when you take into development their 24 million console sales and all the games they licensed, produced, and distributed, which is a relative rarity for a commercially viable product.  A number of game blogs, such as Kotaku and BenHack have brought up the point that if any other company besides Microsoft (with their infinitely deep pockets) were behind the Xbox, they probably would have folded right off the start.  No point going on about it now though, as I'll be unable to really hunker down and look for citations supporting or detracting from my claim on the matter for a few more weeks either way. RPH 19:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Most consoles systems are not priced to lose money per sale actually. The Xbox was an exception, it was made from a modified open architecture of PC's at the time. As such the hardware in it costed more to make than the price of the console. So in this it was a commercial failure. Microsoft figured the price and number of games they would need to sell in order to clear a profit. The figure they used was the average gamer would buy about 10 (IIRC) games for the life of the console and set prices according to that. So the XBox and games as a whole didn't clear a profit until around the time the XBox 360 came out, 5 or 6 years later. As for the XBox itself, that would constitute commercial failure, one that Microsoft could afford, however.Orthuberra 21:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: "This article's about commercial failure, so a product that loses money would have to qualify." Not necessarily. There is more than just pure cash at stake in a commercial venture. There are things like the value of the brand equity built up, the cultivation of a loyal customer base, and the technical innovations that can be applied to other current and future products (in this case the Xbox Live service, for instance). Also, we have a scope definition right on the front page here that says,  "a commercial failure for a video game hardware platform is...a system that either fails to become adopted by a significant portion of the gaming market place, or fails to win significant mindshare of the target audience." That's our current standard for judging failure here, and with an installed user base of almost 30 million and plenty of space and coverage given in the gaming press and in the stores, the Xbox was tremendously successful on both of those points. Consider that over two dozen companies have tried to break into the console market in the last 30 years, from RCA and NEC to Pioneer and Philips, and only a handful of them have survived long enough to launch a second generation. That Microsoft accomplished that much is almost a success story in itself.--Zequist 00:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the Xbox? 

message: Isn't there any reference to this lawsuit? Can't find it on google. --Lo'oris 02:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  XOR patent infringement 

message: The wikipage for Daikatana links to this page, claiming that Daikatana was a flop (which it was), yet this page has only a fleeting reference to it from the Dominion: Storm Over Gift 3 section.
130.88.194.55 09:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daikatana? 

message: I'm not so sure that the N-Gage is really entitled to be listed in this article, I mean the N-Gage was barely even ever released. If I put together a motorola processor and hacked a screen and memory on to it and tried to sell that would it also be listed here? Just because it's a big company =/= it was big enough to be listed here, or indeed that the company even wanted it to be a big thing. -- Anonywiki (talk) 17:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the N-Gage deserve a place here? 

message: MMOs are a very hit and miss market, and I was thinking that maybe Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Tabula Rasa should be added. Opinions?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.123.132 (talk) 23:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  MMOs? 

message: Seriously, this section reads like something written by a Xbox fanboy, or at very least someone who hates the PS3 to some massive degree. The PS3 has been doing well lately, and has even surpassed Xbox and Wii sales in Asian countries in the last quarter.
This section needs to be edited or removed.
I decided to be "bold" and remove it.  It's still being sold, there's still considerable developer interest, and the console wars for this generation are still not considered decided. --Damiel (talk) 03:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV on PS3 section 

message: Is this including online sales or strictly store sales, because most PC games are purchaced online.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.122.193 (talk) 05:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 % of PC Games. 

message: Sega Saturn became a failure in the west and N64DD became a failure in Japan.
Laughreach (talk) 20:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Commercial failure" implies that the manufacturer actually lost money on it. I don't think that is even remotely true of the Saturn (a huge success in Japan and moderately successful in the West), though it may be true of the N64DD and 32X. 217.155.20.163 (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I entirely agree, although note that Saturn doesn't appear to be in the article anymore? The lead implies commercial failure means failed to be profitable (and that would be the most obvious definition of the term). People seem to have been placing consoles here simply because "they weren't massively successful" or "they weren't no. 1" - or possibly they are placing them here simply out of POV. Similarly, I have no idea what the CD32 is doing here. There is no evidence cited that it lost money, and most of the paragraph is POV original research about why someone things the CD32 didn't do well. The CD32 was discontinued when Commodore went bust - obviously, as were all of Commodore's product, but it doesn't make sense to label them all "commercial failures" because of that. It also doesn't make sense to criticise it due to the lack of CD32 only games - it was an Amiga, so there is nothing strange that the games released were the same ones released for the A1200 and other Amigas. I'm removing this. Other consoles probably should go too. If anyone wants to add them in, please add a reliable reference that states that these consoles lost money. Mdwh (talk) 17:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the Legacy section in the Sonic X-treme article, it says that the Saturn was a failure in the west. And, if the 32X is bad, add the Sega CD also, as well, I agree with Fenessy, also add CD-I, Atari Linx and Intellivoice. Im Jejeman, if someone don't know.--201.235.238.151 (talk) 00:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do Sega Saturn and N64DD deserve a place here? 

message: The Phillips CD-I was a failure due to those epic Zelda games made for the CD-I and that horrible Hotel Mario. I think it must be added.
Laughreach (talk) 00:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically the system wasn't a failure. It was not sold as a game console and was not successful in the home market but it was quite successful in it's market niche of multi-media kiosk. It should not be on this list.BcRIPster (talk) 05:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  CD-I 

message: I've been adding articles to this list (i.e Grim Fandango and Nintendo 64 DD) and I am upset about some of them. So I'm suggesting that an article should be deleted if it doesn't have one reference of commerical failure in it. Am I right?  GamerPro64 (talk) 00:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Deletions 

message: Should Uru: Ages Beyond Myst be added to this list? I'm thinking about adding it to the list, but need a second opinion. GamerPro64 (talk) 03:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uru: Ages Beyond Myst 

message: I've added an editnotice to this article, based on a hidden comment left in the article. The editnotice is transcluded below:
Any comment or suggested modification to the editnotice can be made on this talk page and a change can be requested to an administrator. The notice is located at MediaWiki:Editnotice-0-List of commercial failures in video gaming. Cenarium (Talk) 03:53, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editnotice 

message: I'm surprised these games aren't on this page, do they not qualify somehow?
98.234.58.189 (talk) 20:49, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You can add them. Daikatana could be added, too. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 18:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Daikatana used to be on here but there was no references to it at all. And I agree on God hand and Okami. I'll try to look for references. GamerPro64 (talk) 23:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Daikatana can be put back in so long as it includes references. The article itself should provide ample evidence of its controversy and end results. If I find time, I'll put it in myself.—WhosAsking (talk) 12:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Okami/God Hand 

message: The image :File:AtariLandfill.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
*:      File:Psychonauts screenshot.jpg
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --14:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image copyright problem with File:AtariLandfill.jpg 

message: I am tempted to say that Lair (video game) could count as a commercial failure for Sony's PlayStation 3, with high expectations that were quickly dashed, leading to mediocre to poor reviews throughout and a quick reputation as perhaps the PS3's first bomb. However, I am having difficulty coming up with the required references that state that Lair failed commercially. Was Lair a failure, and if so, can anyone help come up with the necessary supporting material?—WhosAsking (talk) 20:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Vgcharts isn't  reliable source. Keep searching, you're on to something. GamerPro64 (talk) 20:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Not arguing. Figured, though, it'd make a good circumstantial start to the case: try and draw further research I may not know about. How about this article from 1up? It mentions NPD and seems to say it had a bad start, but I'll keep looking for something with a longer-term analysis of the game.(Some time later…) I see. Part of the problem is that September was the last month NPD released their monthly figures to the general public. Starting October '07, only paying customers could get access to the data. Still, this chart which shows the overall September 2007 results (first full month Lair was out) doesn't paint a pretty picture, either. Will start looking around for the Q4 2007 results to see what they have to say—WhosAsking (talk) 17:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

text: *Further update. Found the October and November 2007 numbers. I think what's making data on Lair hard to find on the NPD charts is the simple fact that it didn't make the charts. For the first three full months of its release, according to NPD data, Lair never broke the top ten. Perhaps you can help me follow up on a couple of potential black eyes. Not only do I see a lack of prominent sales for Lair on the NPD charts, but I'm seeing articles like this and this about Sony and Factor 5 trying to save face on the matter (I know--Destructoid articles, but they at least have references in them).—WhosAsking (talk) 17:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lair 

message: I do not belive that the Nintendo 64 DD had 85,000 units as scrap, that is impossible, it is impossible to produce more consoles then are accuatly sold, the part that stated the Nintendo 64 DD sold 15,000 units may be true, but the part that 85,000 is NOT, I would estimate that between 20,000 and 30,000 were produced, 100,000 IS ludacris, and so is the claim that 85,000 were scrap. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 17:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It hasn't even been 24 hours, and you already broke your pledge. You have not provided any substantive basis for your claim. The existing reference has been generally reliable source for gaming hardware information. If you think you have a better source, then offer it. Otherwise, please stop. Dancter (talk) 20:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and not just because I added the N64 DD to this list. I somewhat work on this article a lot. And though I don't know what Dancter is talking about, I want to see you get a better reference for it. Good luck! GamerPro64 (talk) 03:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Ok, I'll go and surf the net... mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 15:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  I do not belive 

message: I'm just wondering if this abomination of a video game deserves a place here. It was definitely a broken NES game... and it cost $200! The whole idea of buying a game for less than $4 doesn't really fit well.. it was more like buying ways to die. The company that made it even went bankrupt too IIRC.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.198.244 (talk) 09:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Action 52 is listed among Wikipedia's list of Video games notable for negative reception. But to qualify as a commercial failure, we would need some financial numbers for the game. How many copies did it sell? Is there any estimate on any profits/losses from the game? From what I've read, Active Enterprises continued to operate for several years after the release and in fact stayed a business for some time after, leaving the market rather than going under.—WhosAsking (talk) 16:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Action 52? 

message: The mere prospect of 85,000 units of N64 DD being scrap is ludacriss, to this article, to the N64 DD article and to wikipedia as a whole. It should, and is going to be changed (by me) to less then 100,000 units sold, because for 1, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any product WHAT SO EVER to have more units scrap then sold and also there is ABOUSLUTELY no proof to suggest it. If anyone has any objections WHAT SO EVER, please bring it up on either this, or the N64 DD talk page. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 15:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Try telling that to the people who buried all those copies of E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial in '83. It's completely possible, and has happened quite a few times. As I stated previously on this page, MiragePalace has been solidly reliable resource. Your unsubstantiated arguments have not. Dancter (talk) 16:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Dancter, of course its possible, to suggest its impossible is moronic. It happens in most areas of entertainment, hardware etc, that theres more produced than required. Usually they get sold rid-onk-ulously cheap/massive bundles, but in some cases its cheaper to scrap than sell. In this case, I'm guessing that marketting costs of the reduced price, producing the number of games to match the console (100,000 of each) etc. However, I think the term 'became scrap' is far too informal for an encyclopaedic article. It should just say 'of the 100,000 units, only 15,000 were sold' the rest doesn't need to be said chocobogamer mine 18:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Ok, for the sake of this article and wikipedia as a whole, I will agree with Dancter and you're self. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 10:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  N64 DD 85,000 units of Scrap = Ludacriss 

message: Do you think this system would qualify as a commercial failure for a gaming system? I mean, it was pricey as anything, even in the day, the lineup was flakey, and it didn't last very long. It was recently featured on #1 on Blistered Thumb's "Top 10 Worst Consoles you Never Heard Of", so I'm using this as a starting point for discussion and further information. Anyone wish to add fuel to the flames? —WhosAsking (talk) 17:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Update: Found a couple references and decided to go ahead and put it in. Once you read about it, the story of its failure is pretty easy to see.—WhosAsking (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pioneer LaserActive? 

message: OK, here is one for debate. Conventional perception is that Pac-Man is considered to be a commercial failure. But even the page about the game specifically notes that it not only sold 7 million copies (2/3 of the hardware install base!), but that it was also the best selling game for the system. Frankly every single person I knew owned a copy of it for their system at the time.
While it is frequently credited with ET as ushering in the '83 crash (even in on this very page), is the game itself really a commercial failure? Technically? Looking at all of the evidence I would honestly have to say no, it wasn't a commercial failure.
Thoughts? BcRIPster (talk) 04:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I partially agree.  I think Pac-Man isn't worthy of a separate entry on this page which already has an entry for ET, as the failure of ET was much more pronounced.  The two games are considered unsuccessful because of the huge quantities of carts that were made and then failed to sell and were returned in droves.  I think the two entries should be combined as Pac-Man was just a lesser-magnitude repeat of what happened with ET.Cverlo (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was the thing. Atari was so ambitious they put down too much money on the project. Thus, even with terrific sales, they failed to recoup costs. I would class this as a commercial failure but not of the usual sort. ET is the same story but worse: too much money put down on the project, not nearly enough made back; only this time the game really bombed.—68.10.98.153 (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pac-Man for the Atari 2600 

message: Apparently, There doesn't seem to be any references to the fact about "a shortage of chips around the launch date resulted in a failed launch and loss of consumer interest", however, the one of the two references say "digiBlast has landed", non indicative of what is mentioned. The other reference is a dead link. While I am not suggesting digiBlast would be removed from this article, I would like to suggest some more (and more reliable) sources and expand the section a little bit. 119.94.153.205 (talk) 13:15, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  digiBlast? 

message: Whoops! The noughties’ most disastrous games in Develop (magazine). Nifboy (talk) 19:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  A source for use 

message: "An Elder Scrolls Legend: Battlespire" and "The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redgaurd" were definately BIG failures. Both of the predecessors ("The Elder Scrolls: Arena" and "The ELder Scrolls II: Daggerfall") were huge sellers, even though critics didn't like them, but both of these games were, like I said, BIG failures. And one of the most stupidist reasons is that they were released on DOS in '97 and '98.
Another is "Doctor Who and the Mines of Terror". The game cost SO MUCH to make, the company went bankrupt! And it barely sold. On top of that, it is buggy and almost impossible to complete.
I think these games should be included.--The Rogue Leader 12:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Candidates 

message: I believe the unit was only sold through Toys R Us and I'm not sure how well it did.  Perhaps someone in the know could elaborate for the article.  It was a hand-held gaming system that accepted full-sized Sega Genesis cartridges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.58.206.225 (talk • contribs) 05:09, 17 December 2008 - 66.58.206.225 (talk) 05:09, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sega Nomad? 

message: I was wondering if it's the case to include Duke Nukem Forever in the list, since it was hyped for 12 years, it was never released and caused 3DRealms to go bust.Devil Master (talk) 19:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Litigation is ongoing between the remnants of the company and Take-Two Interactive, then the publisher. If T2 gets its way, they can contract another developer to complete the game, in which case we'd have to see how its commercial results fare in the bigger scheme of things.—WhosAsking (talk) 21:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

text: If Duke Nukem Forever, aquires a devolper, it may be releaced, I'm not saying that's gonna happen, but It might be releaced. So you can't insist on it being a commercial faliure, before it's offialy been cancelled. mcjakeqcool Mcjakeqcool (talk) 15:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree.  I think the magnitude of the DNF situation is such that it warrants inclusion.  Take-Two Interactive shoveled money into Battlecruiser 3000AD for seven years.  3D Realms shoveled money into Duke Nukem Forever for TWELVE, and the devs apparently had enough spare time on their hands to look at what other people were doing because they kept switching engines.  Consider: DNF was in active development BEFORE the Lewinsky scandal broke and it wasn't killed until after Bush left office.  It was first in Wired's vaporware contest for four years.  I think that's a bit more newsworthy then Grim Fandango. Cverlo (talk) 05:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only problem is that it is still possible the game can come out and can still sell. That litigation is still ongoing, and the situation is still too fluid. I'll admit, it's going to come to a head, but it could either be an unmitigated disaster…or one tremendous comeback story. Until it can be conclusively shown to be the former, we have to wait.—68.10.98.153 (talk) 19:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely the amount of money that has been spent on it so far would justify a classification as a financial failure? It did pull some smaller development houses down. Argybargybob (talk) 11:45, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duke Nukem Forever? 

message: A potential candidate? I'm sure as hell it didn't turn a profit, had an impact in the arcade that was nowhere near of Street Fighter II's and half of todays SFIV install base must be skeptical it even exists.
I personally love the SFIII saga and think they're the best games in the series, but sales, arcade popularity and critical acclaim compared to SFII says otherwise. Strykie-boy (talk) 01:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have citations to back up SF3 being on this article? GamerPro64 (talk) 14:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Street Fighter III]] 

message: Where's the worst video game of all time, Superman on the N64? 82.13.79.52 (talk) 19:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a vast difference between a bad video game and one that is a commercial failure.  We need evidence of the latter. --MASEM (t) 15:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Superman 64]] 

message: Yeah, I know! It is considered as a bad video game, but when you look back, Sega were trying to reach out to the market, and make it the best selling Sonic game in history! But instead, everything turned out backwards! The critics gave it horrible reviews, no one was buying it, and it rarely came off the shelfs! There for, it's a commercial failure! Not that I think the game should be on the list, but I do believe that it was a game that was trying to reach a mass market, and got nowhere! CaptainMario16 (talk) 00:36, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree it was a failure, I think you'd need some sources as far as what they were projecting to accomplish vs. what they actually sold or something. I'm not sure it's up to the magnitude of failure that most of the things listed in this article. (I mean, it was released during a time where a lot of the Sonic games were relatively poorly received, it didn't doom the XBOX 360 or Sega or anything like that...) Sergecross73 msg me  15:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: True, it didn't leave the 360, or Sega in the dust, but if you're aiming for what they were trying to accomplish, do remember that I meantioned they were trying to reach a mass market, and make it the greatest Sonic game in history. CaptainMario16 (talk) 00:29, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Sonic_06|Sonic Next Gen]] 

message: Game is a big commercial flop,confirmed through NPD.I don't know about it's sales in Japan and Europe,but so far it's sold only 26000 units in NA/Canada.
Sugreev2001 (talk) 12:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We need more than a statement on the number of sales. We need something that says "commercial failure" or near equivalent. I know of several more games that had subpar first month sales but wouldn't be on this list. --MASEM (t) 12:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Shadows of the Damned]] 

message: Should Brutal Legend really be included when according to the article, it actually did well in the long term (1.4 million sales by Febuary 2011)? --Veyneru (talk) 18:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, and even going by initial sales, Brutal Legend doesn't seem to belong in this article. 215,000 units in the first month is bad for such a high-budget game, but it's not horrendously bad. As the article intro notes, the vast majority of video games have been commercial failures; obviously this article isn't meant to list all of them, just the ones that failed in a notable manner.--NukeofEarl (talk) 17:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Agreed, you can't judge a game a failure off slow first month sales. Without anything else to back up the failure claim, the contradictory evidence that it actually did pretty well and given the tone of the article that claimed it was a failure I think it should be removed from the list. I'm going to remove it. --85.224.242.36 (talk) 11:59, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The inclusion criteria for this list is other reliable sources stating the nature of commercial failure, not our own judgement (that's OR, of course).  The article that gives BL this claim (the CVG one) is one written in 2011, two years after BL's release in 2009, so the authors are fully aware of the post-release sales.  (I would agree that if it was written one month after release, yea, that's impossible to judge then, but this is full hindsight). Yes, they point out the first month, but this is actually a critical figure - that broke any chance of a sequel and forced Double Fine into looking for another project to stay alive and fast.  --MASEM (t) 12:25, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned above, though, the overwhelming majority of video games are commercial failures, so the game needs more than a source establishing commercial failure to merit inclusion in the article. Do we have anything like that?--NukeofEarl (talk) 16:21, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We need a source that specifically calls it a "commercial failure" (or near equivalent), not just a source that points to sales data and leaves it to the reader to make that distinction. We have at least one source for BL that calls it a commercial failure. Most other games don't have those types of sources.  --MASEM (t) 16:32, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

text: Or to take a different angle: games undersell their expectations all the time.  But it is the rarer case that a game (or hardware system here) that the undersell has a larger impact on the developer or publisher or creator, and that's what is usually highlighted when reliable sources talk about "commercial failures" and generally what ends up highlighted on this list.  --MASEM (t) 16:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Brutal Legend]] 

message: "Revenue from the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions of THQ's uDraw tablet peripheral was a staggering $100 million below the publisher's expectations.
Speaking during an investor Q&A earlier today, CFO Paul Pucino revealed that the publisher has around 1.4 million unsold units collecting dust in its inventory.
"Revenues were lower by about $100 million," admitted Pucino.
"Where that $100m comes from is we have about 1.4 million units still in inventory that we haven't sold that we planned on selling. If you think about an average price of about $56 or so, that accounted for a shortfall of about $80 million.""
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-02-thq-details-full-extent-of-udraw-disaster
I think that we should include this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperDopeBass (talk • contribs) 14:57, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Also found a Wall Street Journal article. Will add myself. --MASEM (t) 00:39, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[uDraw GameTablet]] 

message: duke nukem should be added to this list  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.46.147.188 (talk) 08:06, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? ID Software and Apogee Games both considered it a solid success, enough so that they almost immediately followed it with two sequels, both of which were even more successful than the original.--NukeofEarl (talk) 16:24, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

text: All the other games describe something that is clearly identified as some form of commercial failure - generally measured as poor sales, meeting their marks, or the like. The source given for DNF says that the publisher said it sold well. That's not acceptable for this list. --MASEM (t) 02:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correction, the source for DNF publisher says that it sold disappointingly and reduced their profit estimates for that year as a result of those poor sales.  These continual reverts are very unproductive.  The DNF section now has more references to its poor sales and to developers who lost money than almost any other section of this page. Richard Clegg (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous problem was that the sole source used for the article from PSU.com, has zero indication of it being poor sales for DNF; "this hasn’t translated into poor sales." Further, games selling million+ copies aren't certainly bad - it just didn't make it a best-selling title.  That said, the fact that the game had a protracted history and developers losing millions on it is what should be highlighted.  When Take Two is saying they turned a profit, that is likely likely only there costs into it and discounts anything 3D Realms or others spent.  You can probably find more sources to better justify it from that angle (ala how Shenmue is presented) as from a strict game sales side, every source I'm seeing says it did fine, just not as high as expected, and from sales only would not be a commercial failure.  Its those dev costs you need to include to make this stronger. --MASEM (t) 14:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have now included a reference to the alleged loss to 3D Realms (specifically to the boss of 3d realms).  As always with these correct figures are hard to get.  As far as I can see, 3D realms made a huge loss.  Take Two made a profit but not so large as the loss by 3D Realms.  It's unclear as Take Two did pay 3D Realms for the property (but not as much as the loss 3D realms made).  However, it may be that this payment went to Infogrammes not 3D Realms anyway.  The story is told in more lenght on an existing page so it is as well not to add too much here.  Plus, tracking it down in complete detail would be Original Research which puts us in a bit of a "no win" as far as pinning it all down as to who won and who loss.  There's a multitude of sources saying that the boss of 3D realms put in $20-$30 million of his own money.  Richard Clegg (talk) 15:47, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't need exact figures but some numbers (which you are getting) that showed that the game hit 3DR hard and they considered it a financial disaster for themselves (but not necessarily Take Two or Infogrammes).  For some reason, I thought that 3DR had to downsize after DNF's release but I can't find anything immediate - maybe I was just thinking that.  But this is way better and not less a problem for inclusion than the first take added. (remember, this is not just necessarily games that were critically panned, but that were financial failures) --MASEM (t) 15:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK... I think we now have enough to establish commercial failure (the omission of DNF came up in the context of a discussion of commercial failure in games).  Anything more (e.g. gathering who spent what from various sources and collating to try to establish the exact winners and losers would probably be WP:NOR Richard Clegg (talk) 16:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duke Nukem Forever 

message: The reference for the failure of THQ's uDraw leading to the discontinuation of the Red Faction franchise is being misinterpreted. Careful reading shows that one is not being linked to the other. Most sources claim that the sales of the most recent Red Faction game led to the decision to end the franchise:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/36133/THQ_Phases_Out_Red_Faction_Franchise_Following_Disappointing_Sales.php
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Red-Faction-Armageddon-Sales-Disappoint-Sequels-Planned-33835.html
http://www.complex.com/video-games/2011/07/poor-sales-force-thq-to-abandon-red-faction-franchise  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgpop (talk • contribs) 03:16, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is probably a combination of RF:A being unsuccessful and the uDraw's financial hit on the company, but I've made it clear we were talking the less-successful franchises that were shelves like RF. --MASEM (t) 03:43, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  uDraw and Red Faction 

message: "Star wars TOR was released at the start of 2012. This game is a complete flop and has now gone free to play. Just like every single other star wars MMORPG, it is a failure. What the world needs now is a new jedi knight game. It has been long enough."
This is not up to standard, it's clearly someones opinion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.136.143 (talk) 06:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, I removed it. The same editor made another unsourced changed too. --MASEM (t) 06:08, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Star wars 

message: I really don't see why these aren't on the list.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There has to be references that say they are commercial failures. GamerPro64 20:19, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the Sega Saturn was only a commercial failure in certain markets, and the Atari 7800 was actually a commercial success.--NukeofEarl (talk) 16:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure that there are references if we look for them.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably, but we can't add the consoles to the list until we find them.--NukeofEarl (talk) 15:10, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not Sega Saturn, Dreamcast and 32X?  Why not Atari 5200, 7800? 

message: Afaik was also considered quite a commercial failure though it had previously received high ratings from various magazines ...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.47.143.43 (talk) 20:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about Outcast? 

message: Ubisoft said it was unprofitable, meaning that there will be no sequel. Also it flopped so hard that Rayman Legends was delayed and made multiplatform. It wasn't anywhere near profitable, even when it was sold in a bundle.  --DrDevilFX (talk) 10:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  ZombiU 

message: Brutal Legend sold 1.5M copies and it's included in a list of failures? What about the games that sell less?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.116.41.47 (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: We need sources to identify games as commercial failures, it's not strictly based on sales numbers. --MASEM (t) 14:50, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  1.5 million copies = failure?? 

message: this is not mentioned in the list. although, it was a complete flop, and came right before the format war ended.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.193.255.174 (talk) 01:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's probably more a failure of the HD DVD format, not the attachment for the 360. --MASEM (t) 01:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: More importantly, this is a peripheral. We explicitly do not index peripheral's on this page with the odd exceptions (which I still don't quite agree with) of the 64DD and 32X. BcRIPster (talk) 21:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  xbox 360 HD-DVD 

message: Why isn't Superman for the N64 on this list? 71.95.53.89 (talk) 03:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I would imagine that it's because of the fact that, outside of some sad faces at Christmas, Superman didn't impact the world at all.  Just take a glance at the table of contents and see that they were all defined by notably high commercial expectations, and their performance shaped the industry as we know it. — Smuckola (Email) (Talk) 03:56, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Superman" (N64) 

message: I'm not really sure Indie games have a place on this list. Indie games by definition are expected to not be commercially successful and therefore it is more the surprise when they succeed commercially. In relation to the addition of Sunset to the list, 4,000 copies in sales is pretty good for an Indie title. Not meeting developer's over inflated sales expectations does not constitute commercial failure. BcRIPster (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: So even when there are articles about how Tale of Tales is quitting the video game industry because of its failure it doesn't make it count as a commercial failure? GamerPro64 17:32, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No I wouldn't think so. Again, success and persistence in the industry are the exceptions for Indie studios. Indie historically is defined as being more about creative freedom and publisher independence than about the sales. Sales are the avenue that allows an Indie to convert to "legit" status. If we were to start tracking every Indie shop that folded because they didn't make a profit, and every Indie game that didn't sell well, we'd blowout this page with more content than you could process. Also, related to Tale of Tales. An interview with a developer commenting that they didn't meet sales expectations falls more under POV than a larger market statement and this applies for AAA studios and Indies alike. We've applied this rule to other additions to this page in the past... just read the discussions above for clarification. BcRIPster (talk) 18:40, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of Indie games?!? 

message: Can the Sega Dreamcast be added to the list? How it performed in the market, and the number of units sold are nearly the same as the Sega Saturn which was also unsuccessful. 98.119.155.81 (talk) 00:06, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreamcast 

message: Perhaps the Sega CD can also be included. Although it was an add-on, it was expensive as most consoles of its time. Throughout its run in the market, the Sega CD sold only 2.7 million units, far less than the units sold by the Sega Saturn which is also a commercial failure. 98.119.155.81 (talk) 03:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Just comparing #s is not sufficient. There are high selling games on here that far outsold other titles but are commercial failures because they didn't meet expected sales marks. --MASEM (t) 14:02, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the Sega Saturn article, the sales of the Sega CD were "commercially disappointing." There's also a source. Rattatast (talk) 15:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sega CD 

message: Where's the Ouya?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.97.190.75 (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any sources that mention it being a commercial failure. It's a disappointment, but that's different from being a commercial failure. --MASEM (t) 02:52, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ouya 

message: I believe the ColecoVision does belong in this list of commercial failures. In fact, one of the two sources I added pretty much explains it. 173.55.37.52 (talk) 23:17, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Having weak sales after two years of strong sales is not immediately a commercial failure. That's just poor sales, and particularly if those sales were from fall out of the video game crash. --MASEM (t) 00:22, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm starting to think that I shouldn't have use the word "strong" in the description. Perhaps "promising" is more suitable. Anyway, if the ColecoVision was, in any ways, a success, then it should have sold at least 10 million units. However, the console only sold 2 million, a number commonly associated with consoles that are deemed failures. 173.55.37.52 (talk) 01:05, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  ColecoVision 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This would be only for the home consoles of that generation, and the exception is the handsome consoles (3DS and PS Vita).
The sales of the Wii U (the great commercial failure) are 12.83 millons, but for Nintendo GameCube was 21 millons (considered a commercial failure for Nintendo's fans) and for the N64 was 32 millons.
The actual sales of the Xbox One are 10-20 millons of consoles, but for the Xbox 360 was 85 millons!
On money earned approximate in dollars (taking into consideration the launch sell price):
Nintendo 64:  6,4 billons (5th gen)
Nintendo GameCube: 4,2 billons (6th gen)
Nintendo Wii: 20 billons (7th gen)
Nintendo WiiU: 3,6 billons (8th gen)
Microsoft Xbox: 7,2 billons (6th gen)
Microsoft Xbox 360: 25,5 billons (7th gen)
Microsoft Xbox One: 10 billons (8th gen)
Sony PlayStation: 30,6 billons (5th gen)
Sony PlayStation 2: 47 billons (6th gen)
Sony PlayStation 3: 43 billons (7th gen)
Sony PlayStation 4: 15,2 billons (8th gen)--Valkrjem (talk) 13:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The eight generation is a commercial failure? 

message: Apologies to those who have put work into this article, but I want to be clear - how are we judging "commercial failure"?
Case in point - the article lists the Neo Geo Pocket Color.
It is true (beyond any doubt) that the Neo Geo Pocket Color was less successful than Nintendo's Game Boy. However, can it be called a "commercial failure"? It may have preceded the downfall of SNK but this article would suggest it was a cause, not a symptom of their decline.
I am concerned that this article often lists consoles/platforms that were the "loser" among their peers, but not necessarily outright financial failures. For instance, the Vectrex is here, which is fine - because in the end, their backer lost millions when they invested in the machine.
Part of me feels this article needs a better definition of "commercial failure".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.148.47.52 (talk) 13:53, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  I find this article highly dubious 

message: How can anyone possibly deny that the Dreamcast was a commercial failure? The Dreamcast sold fewer units than the Saturn which was considered a failure. 172.56.14.173 (talk) 19:32, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreamcast 

message: Shouldn't the Wii U be here? Its sales are appalling, it consistently fell short of sales expectations, sometimes by 50%, its one of the slowest selling consoles in history, developers pulled out of developing games for it, its sales are being destroyed by consoles that have been on the market 12 months less. In a few months it will be on the market for 4 years and if it's lucky it will have 15 million sales. The Dreamcast was on the market for about 30 months, and only 19 months worldwide, and sold 10 million units. That's between 3.3 and 5.2 million per year depending on what count you want to use. The Wii U, at the last report, its sales would be 3.1 million per year, 200k less than the Dreamcast. Even if it somehow reaches 15 million by November (Nintendo predicted sales of 800,000 for the next financial year, so that seems very unlikely) will have sold only 3.75 million per year, and its going to top out at that, because the NX console will succeed it in 2017. Even at the last report, its sales would be 3.1 million per year, 200k less than the Dreamcast. If the Dreamcast is on here, the Wii U has to be, as its sold even more poorly. 
Bomberswarm2 (talk) 13:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't just use what were expected market numbers - we need either a statement by Nintendo or a reliable third-party that asserts the Wii U was a failure. We have sources that state the Dreamcast was a failure, but nothing for the Wii U. --MASEM (t) 13:37, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not saying it should be there on its expected numbers, it should be here for is abysmal sales in general. Bomberswarm2 (talk) 06:08, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  And that would be original research without a source to say that the Wii U's sales were low and made it a commercial failure. --MASEM (t) 13:40, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't do any original research, i used maths. 5.2 is greater than 3.1. Bomberswarm2 (talk) 02:09, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're missing the point. The WiiU is only a commercial failure if Nintendo release figures to say that it has made less money than it cost to produce. We have no way of knowing, overall, if this is the case - unless Nintendo tell us. The console has sold in the millions so it isn't simply "obvious" that it has been a *commercial* failure.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.148.47.52 (talk) 13:56, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: 
Then - Acting President of Nintendo Shigeru Miyamoto: Why the Wii U crashed and burned 
http://fortune.com/2015/06/23/shigeru-miyamoto-wii-u/
Nintendo declares failure through interview. 
Bomberswarm2 (talk) 11:48, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

text: Nothing in that says it was a commercial failure (the headline is the only place that gives that impression, and we don't consider headlines to be a reliable part of an article). It didn't perform in sales as well as Nintendo hoped, but that itself is not a sign of failure.  --MASEM (t) 12:15, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Still made money off it though184.91.99.69 (talk) 00:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

text: How about this? This system failed to sell even half of its predecessor, it is the lowest selling device of a company's certain product lines, and showed steady decline for 4 years after peaking 2 years after launch. What is it? The Nintendo 3DS! It's following up the DS's near 155 million with likely 70 to 75 million (assuming its steady decline stops and it sells the same for the next 3 years as it is only 61 million now, while averaging 5 to 6 million the last 2 years), has been in steady sales decline since peaking in 2012 (selling over 13 million), and unless it sells another 20 million units will fall short of Game Boy Advance as Nintendo's lowest selling handheld! However, you only hear good news about the 3DS, no one is calling it a failure despite doing all those aforementioned things. Why? The Wii U is only the lowest selling console for Nintendo (note, the Virtual Boy is the lowest selling anything by Nintendo), it also failed to live up to its predecessor, and has also been in steady decline, but so many jump on the Wii U hate bandwagon, when in reality those very same sentiments are also echoed by the Nintendo 3DS! I also bring up the case of ColecoVision. The Wii U has already surpassed the ColecoVision, but if the Coleco isn't called a commercial failure, why is the Wii U after selling 6 times as many? I'll just leave it with that question.2602:304:CFD3:2EE0:2915:E8BF:7084:D453 (talk) 03:10, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

text: I'm going to reopen this in light of several comments made by various N execs over the last few days (following the Switch's tech reveal) that there's enough sourcing since ~Nov 2016 to state the Wii U was a commercial failure. Many of these N execs acknowledge things they are doing with the Switch to avoid problems they had on the Wii U, and coupled with the sales numbers, most journalists seem to be calling the unit now as such. It might have turned a profit but Nintendo is definitely reacting to low sales with how they are running with the Switch. --MASEM (t) 15:35, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I oppose the arguments made back last June, but would be okay if something could be formulated around what Masem is proposing. Sergecross73 msg me 14:10, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

text: Nintendo's Wii U was released in November 2012. It was designed as successor to the Wii as to provide a more challenging experience as to draw back "core" gamers that had dismissed the Wii as they felt it was aimed for casual gameplay. The Wii U features the Wii U GamePad, the unit's primary controller that had a touchscreen that allowed for dual-screen play similar to the Nintendo DS line, or could be used to remotely play games on the GamePad away from the television screen. While the Wii U received positive coverage, it failed to gain significant consumer draw, selling less than 14 million units compared to the Wii's 101 million units by the end of 2016. Nintendo executives attributed the poor sales of the Wii U to a combination of factors. They felt their messaging of the Wii U's abilities was not clear, leading to a general perception that the unit was primarily a tablet system and not a home console. They also recognized that they did not manage their release schedule for games well, nor had significant support from third-party publishers and developers, leaving the Wii U with gaps in software releases. Nintendo stated they had expected to sell 100 million Wii U units, and this over-estimation of sales contributed to several financial quarters of losses through 2016. The development and marketing of their next console, the Nintendo Switch, announced in 2015 and to be released in March 2017, was done to avoid several of the pitfalls that occurred for the Wii U. 
(Sourcing taken from both Wii U and Switch article among others). --MASEM (t) 17:16, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

text: I think that sounds really good. I have no qualms. Sergecross73 msg me 18:59, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wii U 

message: To discuss before adding:
:Nintendo's Wii U was released in November 2012. It was designed as successor to the Wii as to provide a more challenging experience as to draw back "core" gamers that had dismissed the Wii as they felt it was aimed for casual gameplay. The Wii U features the Wii U GamePad, the unit's primary controller that had a touchscreen that allowed for dual-screen play similar to the Nintendo DS line, or could be used to remotely play games on the GamePad away from the television screen. While the Wii U received positive coverage, it failed to gain significant consumer draw, selling less than 14 million units compared to the Wii's 101 million units by the end of 2016. Nintendo executives attributed the poor sales of the Wii U to a combination of factors. They felt their messaging of the Wii U's abilities was not clear, leading to a general perception that the unit was primarily a tablet system and not a home console. They also recognized that they did not manage their release schedule for games well, nor had significant support from third-party publishers and developers, leaving the Wii U with gaps in software releases. Nintendo stated they had expected to sell 100 million Wii U units, and this over-estimation of sales contributed to several financial quarters of losses through 2016. The development and marketing of their next console, the Nintendo Switch, announced in 2015 and to be released in March 2017, was done to avoid several of the pitfalls that occurred for the Wii U. 
(Sourcing taken from both Wii U and Switch article among others). --MASEM (t) 17:16, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that sounds really good. I have no qualms. Sergecross73 msg me 18:59, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed section for Wii U

message: Ōkami was not a hyped title, and the article claims that "the game sold fewer than 600,000 units by March 2009." That may have been below expectations, but 500,000+ units sold for a sleeper game is hardly a failure. There are many PS2 games that sold fewer than 100,000 copes, and I don't see them listed here. My recommendation is to remove Ōkami from the list. 02:19, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This list does not require the title to be "hyped", just that it is considered a commercial failure. The fact that Guiness highlighted this merits on the list. --MASEM (t) 02:35, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, coverage by Guiness would be a relatively high-level source to make such a claim. Also, all sorts of factors beyond "hype" influence these sorts of cases - things like budget for development, marketing expenses, external expectations, etc. Had Final Fantasy 15 only sold a million units, it would have been a massive failure due to its decade-long development period and promotional campaigns, but at the same time, small publishers like Atlus or Xseed Games can crack a profit off of selling 100,000 copies of these small niche JRPGs, because of much smaller costs and far less marketing costs. It all depends on the scenario. Which is why we depend on what reliable sources say. Sergecross73 msg me 15:08, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Ōkami

message: Of this list, we do not include the PSP Go, the Tiger R-Zone and the Philips Videopac + G7400. However, I would not add them only because of this Gizmodo article; if more sourcing can affirm commercial failure (probably going to be easy for the PSP Go, harder for the others), then we can add them. --MASEM (t) 14:09, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 new potential hardware candidates 

message: One IGN writer considers the NES Classic a failure. However, I've not seen this at all shared by others, and the reason the writer considers it a failure is not so much about commercial aspects but that it couldn't keep demand up, which... really doesn't define a failure. In other words, I would absolutely not include the NES Classic on this list just because of this, but I suspect we might have other editors try, so this is just a heads up on this. --MASEM (t) 14:07, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, for the reasons you've just stated. Sergecross73 msg me 14:12, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  As a heads up... 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'd hope to not see the Neo Geo AES ever on this page. SNK never released it with the intention of gaining a huge share of the market. It was a premium console, and they sold it as such. Failed consoles don't get support for 14 years.  Chandler  (talk) 09:21, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo Geo AES 

message: Since original research is being used to add Wii U to this article, GameCube needs to be included as well. Please add the failed GameCube to the list. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.175.129.116 (talk • contribs) 
:No, not without proper sourcing. You should probably read WP:POINT too. Sergecross73 msg me 23:40, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Game Cube needs to be added 

message: I unfortunately can't find the source, but I have read or heard in a video that the 7800 - while it failed to make a dent in the video game market - did make money for Atari.  If this is the case does it belong in a list of "commercial" failures?
Jethro 82 (talk) 17:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: A system can be a commercial failure even if it makes money (Wii U also falls into this bucket). It includes things such as missing company predictions and expectations, losing market shares (even if the company doesn't lose money per say), etc. The bigger issue I think in regards to Atari 7800 is not its profitability, but it's lack of any sourcing here. The main article doesn't seem to describe it as a failure anywhere either. -- ferret (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atari 7800 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello, can anyone find a reliable source for the reason why the Super A'Can failed?
===Super A'Can===
The Super A'Can was a console that was developed by Funtech and was exclusively released in Taiwan in October 1995. What contributed to its failure was the timing of its release, its price being too expensive compared to the PlayStation and the Nintendo 64, and the lack of 3D graphics that were used in most of the fifth-generation consoles. J4lambert (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Super A'Can failure

message: The Super A'Can was a console that was developed by Funtech and was exclusively released in Taiwan in October 1995. What contributed to its failure was the timing of its release, its price being too expensive compared to the PlayStation and the Nintendo 64, and the lack of 3D graphics that were used in most of the fifth-generation consoles. J4lambert (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Super A'Can

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message: I suggest the following titles: Evolve, LawBreakers, Battleborn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.88.182.10 (talk) 12:23, 26 January 2018‎ (UTC)
:You'll need to start by providing reliable secondary sources for each that show they are considered "commercial failures". At least in the case of Battleborn, Gearbox doesn't consider it a failure, as it sold well over 1 million copies. -- ferret (talk) 12:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  "At least in the case of Battleborn, Gearbox doesn't consider it a failure, as it sold well over 1 million copies" well, the Wii U sold well over 13 million copies, and Nintendo doesn't consider that a failure, but it's on this list, so....  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.175.129.116 (talk) 18:53, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The key was the preceding sentence, "reliable secondary sources for each that show they are considered commercial failures". Wii U is regularly noted as a comercial failure by secondary reliable sources. -- ferret (talk) 19:10, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The Verge is NOT a reliable source!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.175.129.116 (talk) 19:13, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It is actually, but besides that I said "regularly noted", as in multiple. -- ferret (talk) 19:31, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Seconded. You need sources to back up the claim, you can't just start declaring them failures yourself. Sergecross73 msg me 13:15, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about some new additions? 

message: Wii U is on this list for the following reasons:
1) Failed to meet lifetime forecast
2) Sites claim it's a failure (despite no word of this from Nintendo themselves calling it that)
3) After posting their first loss due to the 3DS- proven by this April, 2012 report a full 7 months before Wii U's debut (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/apr/26/nintendo-posts-first-loss-30-years), it is debatable as to which was a bigger loser for them at the time, because they didn't break down which item was causing the bigger losses since 3DS was already costing them money at the time
4) Price cut early on in its lifetime
The GameCube also followed the same trend, so it needs to be added. Here's the proof of these similar claims:
1) Failed to meet lifetime forecast (50 million forecasted in 2002): http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/7448/nintendo-targets-50-million-gamecubes
2) Multiple sites claim it's a failure: https://www.goliath.com/gaming/10-reasons-why-the-nintendo-gamecube-failed/ and http://www.denofgeek.com/us/games/nintendo/262192/how-the-gamecube-made-nintendo-cynical and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3754663.stm
3) It also sold so poorly that partway through its lifetime production stopped! Site showing production ending in 2003: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3134651.stm 
4) Price cut early on in its lifetime (May of 2002): https://www.geek.com/games/nintendo-cuts-gamecube-price-549876/
Side note. The Wii U similar to GameCube also turned profitable in the end: http://www.dailygadgetry.com/wii-u-finally-profitable-nintendo/4637 and http://nintendotoday.com/nintendo-no-more-wii-u-loss/
See? Every claim about Wii U being a commercial failure can be echoed with GameCube. Why is it not on this list when literally EVERY SINGLE CLAIM matches both systems? GameCube NEEDS to be included with this, because the sites and history agree, GameCube failed to live up to expectations, sold so poorly production had to be discontinued just months after launch, multiple sites call it a failure, and its price was cut less than a year after release! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.175.129.116 (talk) 19:12, 20 July 2018‎ (UTC)
:Note the IP's previous sections in the archive: here and here. There may be a case for including the GameCube but some of the above is problematic. We cannot go "The price was cut, therefore it was a failure". or "production was stopped!" That's original research. Bullet 2, sources that directly state it is a commercial failure, are what we need, but Goliath and Denofgeek are weak sources (Little used on Wikipedia and not really judged for reliability), while BBC doesn't really call it a failure. It will need some more input. Comparisons to the Wii U case isn't going to help your argument, just focus on Gamecube. -- ferret (talk) 19:39, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Den of Geek is reliable (most uses are in comic/movie articles). There was a discussion about it at WT:VG/S, if I remember correctly. JOEBRO64 00:51, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

text: To take the BBC as a RS, I don't read the article as stating the GC was a failure, it just that in the latter half of its life, it hit with the Gen7 consoles. It didn't do as well as N hoped, but it wasn't clearly the failure that the Wii U had. We'd need much better sourcing that specifically states that. --Masem (t) 19:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why GameCube needs to be added 

message: As the sources noted, fiscal 2015 led by Wii U were PROFITABLE for Nintendo. The neutrality of this page is HEAVILY biased by ignoring the fact that beginning in 2014 the Wii U started making money. NUMEROUS source list it. I guess that's what happens when retards are allowed to undo FACTS. FUCKING MORONIC PIECES OF SHIT!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3ae0:4760:89b1:ba63:cb47:78de (talk • contribs) 
:The FY2015 profit was principally due to the fact that yen became weaker compared to the US dollar, meaning that effectively, their overseas sales brought in more money to Nintendo per unit sold.  From the results of that FY, it is impossible to say that the Wii U made N profitable that year.  And a company can have a commercial failure and still turn profit for its other products on the market. --Masem (t) 03:43, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wii U was profitable in 2015 

message: There is a console released by Commodore International - who were struggling with financial problems - called the Amiga CD32. It was first released in Europe in September of 1993, and it was set for release in the States by 1994, with a price of $399. Unfortunately, they passed a deadline to pay $10 million USD for the patent royalties, and a federal judge denied the release of the console in the US, henceforth, it was never released there. To add salt to injury, the console was completely overshadowed by CD-ROM based games consoles from other companies, the console sold less than 100,000 units in Europe, and Commodore was burdened with debt for the unsold consoles in the Philippines that were meant for the States, but left in the warehouse. Ultimately, Commodore finally gave up and declared bankruptcy, discontinuing the console immediately, and the once dominate leader of home computers in the early 80s and its Amiga computer line was gone in a flash.
Sounds bad right? I think this would work well for a section for the commercial failures category! Would you think so? --70Jack90 (talk) 08:21, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amiga CD32 

message: To the wikipedia users, as you know the PlayStation Classic mini console released in December 3, 2018 was not a best seller. I have visited many stores and have seen stacks of the PlayStation Classic sitting on the store shelves. Also I've heard many negative reviews on the Playstation Classic from gamespot, ign and also saw many negative reviews on youtube concerning the Playstation Classic including lack of options for scanline, framerate issues including Pal games running at 50 fps and frame skipping, glitchy audio, running 20 games on an open source emulator, and the criticism for the lack of Playstation hits including Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Tomb Raider, Toy Story 2, Gran Turismo, Wipeout, R-type Delta, Breath of Fire 3, 4, Castlevania Symphony of the Night, Tony Hawks Pro Skater, Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy 8, Final Fantasy 9, Dragon Warrior 7, Legend of Mana, Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone being absent from the Playstation Classic. Also the Playstation in Japan sold about 120,000 units. Now the price has been discounted on many Internet stores.
Is the Playstation Classic Mini Console going to be included in the commercial failure article page, let me know what you think. By the way I'm very disappointed the Playstation Classic didn't include my favorite games including Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Final Fantasy Tactics, 8, 9, Toy Story 2, A Bugs Life, Hercules, The Emperors New Groove, Treasure Planet.
CrosswalkX (talk) 14:36, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We need reliable secondary sources that call it a commercial failure. -- ferret (talk) 17:41, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would having the Playstation Classic be counted as a commercial failure? 

message: Sony’s handheld console PlayStation Vita was received commercial failure, please add it to the list.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.212.92.224 (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? --Masem (t) 18:02, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add PSV to the list 

message: It mentions in the Wikipedia page for the game itself that it was a commercial failure under sequel, so I think it will be a good addition for the Video and computer game software failures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_EndWar#Sequel (From the Wikipedia page)
https://web.archive.org/web/20121012131736/http://www.1up.com/news/endwar-sequel-hold (The ref used on Endwar's wiki page, I will update the link on the original page)
:I'm not saying it wasn't one, but I'm not seeing confirmation at the archived 1UP.com link (the article doesn't support that claim) nor the linked VG247 article in the 1UP.com . Both simply say that the sequel was canned, but for non-specific reasons. We'd need more sources to affirm. --Masem (t) 23:28, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add 'Tom Clancy's EndWar to the list' 

message: Should we point out that EarthBound, in the years since its '95 release, has obtained a sizable cult following, mainly due to its appearances in Smash Bros.? There's an entire article devoted to its fanbase: EarthBound fandom MightyArms (talk) 00:46, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Earthbound section 

message: So the [Atari Lynx], [Atari Jaguar], and the [Atari 5200] were included in the list. But the author forgot writing about the [Atari 2600] in the article. Plus, the [iQue Player] (a.k.a N64 Classic)
was not included.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theloliz (talk • contribs) 22:31, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You need sources affirming said consoles were commercial failures. Pretty confident you will NOT find these for 2600. The console didn't fail Atari, Atari did. And the limited release of the pique probably means there won't be such sources either. --Masem (t) 22:38, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Atari 2600 and iQue Player 

message: Made this article recently and was wondering it could be added to the listing. Writing up about it, the game was expected to raise a million pounds in the UK, but due to a recall of the game, it flopped and the game makers regretted making the title. GamerPro64 03:30, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The Race Against Time]] possible addition 

message: That thing was discontinued just months after launch failing to even remotely reach 14 million units like the Wii U.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:57C:287B:F4EB:19E9 (talk) 00:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: A late life-cycle remodel of a console already on market isn't a failure just because it didn't outsell an entire console line. -- ferret (talk) 00:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is the NES top loader? 

message: Even its own page calls on here it a failure! The thing didn't even do 5.5 million systems lifetime, and was extremely short-lived. TurboGrafx-16 is considered by everyone in the industry to have been a commercial failure.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:C15C:C50D:9718:6520 (talk) 05:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: But the PC Engine was a success, being a strong #2 in the Japanese market to the Super Famicom and outselling the Mega Drive. From a worldwide perspective, the system wasn't a failure, even if it's success was limited to certain markets. oknazevad (talk) 14:51, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

text: We need sources that call it a commercial failure. Our article on it says it did well in JP but didn't break into the NA market, that doesn't mean it was a failure for NEC. --Masem (t) 15:03, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  TurboGrafx-16 

message: Watch this space – already suffered major losses and that's even before the Sony removal.  Nixinova   T   C   03:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: We want to look at the long term picture. It is reasonable that CDP will patch the game, it will be back on the storefront, and they will recover from it. Far too early to consider this a possibilty. --Masem (t) 05:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyberpunk 2077 

message: This needs to be added.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.136.233 (talk) 15:14, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No source has stated it is a commercial failure, but it is on the potential list if it continues its trends. --Masem (t) 15:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Google Stadia 

message: This game should be added because it was a massive flop from its launch to the present--24.44.76.88 (talk) 14:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Reception and commercial failures are different things. We certainly don't have enough sourcing about sales or whether its a commercial failing yet. -- ferret (talk) 14:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a link that proves that the game bombed commercially. https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/04/global_sales_data_suggests_balan_wonderworld_has_massively_flopped --24.44.76.88 (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Nintendo Life is a situational source, and we have to be a bit careful with that. I'd rather see a more concrete or reputable source before we can add it. --Masem (t) 15:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case, reporting/quoting another questionable source, who is reporting an anonymous Twitter/Reddit. Doesn't look like any hard figures released by developer. -- ferret (talk) 16:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There's another link that shows you information about the game's commercial failure. https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2021/04/05/balan-wonderworld-poor-sales/ --24.44.76.88 (talk) 21:19, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: PS Lifestyle is definitely not considered a reliable source per WP:VG/S. --Masem (t) 21:39, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Most discussions regarding PS Lifestyle have leaned much more towards it being reliable, FWIW. JOEBRO64 21:57, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if we consider it reliable, the source it uses is a random Twitter account and asserting one number (3100 copies in Japan), which is nowhere close to affirming a commercial failure. --Masem (t) 22:32, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the last link that tells you that Balan Wonderworld was a massive flop. https://gamerant.com/balan-wonderworld-massive-sales-flop/ --24.44.76.88 (talk) 17:22, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Gamerant is currently considered unreliable but is under active discussion at this moment. -- ferret (talk) 17:48, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if Gamerant was reliable, we're coming from a single source of data, this one Twitter account that has no official ties to the industry. Even if IGN reported based on that tweet, we'd not include it. --Masem (t) 18:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balan Wonderworld 

message: I think the Xbox Series X and PlayStation 5 would make ideal additions to this article, as both consoles either are selling poorly or are being bought out very quickly by consumers who are very excited to enter the latest generation of video games. The COVID-19 pandemic is only making the acquisition of either or both consoles more difficult than it should be. Homechallenge55 (talk) 23:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Playstation is, [according to this article https://www.gizmochina.com/2021/04/19/sony-ps5-best-selling-gaming-console-us/], the fastest selling console in history. [I believe the Xbox is also setting it's own records https://latam.ign.com/xbox-scarlet-1/78194/news/xbox-series-xs-son-las-consolas-que-mas-rapido-se-han-vendido-en-la-historia-de-xbox]. So they are not selling poorly. As for being hard to find, that is not a failure on the part of the console, but a failure on the part of Microsoft and Sony to allow their machines to be purchased only online and not sold in stores, which allows scalpers to buy up as much merchandise as they can using bots. So therefore it's not a commercial failure of the consoles, but a failure by the companies to get their consoles out to consumers. It doesn't belong in this article.--JOJ Hutton 00:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Concur with Jojhutton. Zero evidence of them being commercial failures and no sources provided that say they are. Plus it's essentially far too early in their lifecycle to even ponder. -- ferret (talk) 00:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honorable mentions 

message: Should the Xbox One Kinect get a mention? Doremon764 (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source that shows or claims it was a commercial failure? -- ferret (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Having written much of the Kinect article, this is really narrow specific version of the Kinect, and its problems were more tied (proverbially and literally) to the Xbox One's initial approach. Kinect 1.0 was a rousing success, and Kinect remains an active project at Microsoft, just not for gaming. --Masem (t) 22:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Remember that the key word on this page is "commercial failure", which those articles don't support. --Masem (t) 00:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Xbox One Kinect 

message: While predicting the future is never an easy task, it is doubtful the Amico will be an whelming success, if it manages to even become a retail presence or exist. Maybe a better candidate for Vaporware? 2601:540:8200:92A:BEB4:D82A:EC1C:EEE0 (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Intellivision Amico isn't listed here so I don't know what there is to discuss. A product that sells through and makes money for it's company despite not selling millions of units is not a "commercial failure". Failure isn't determined by "becomes a household name". -- ferret (talk) 12:15, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  It isn't listed here yet, because it has yet to release. But by all predictions, this has the potential to sell less units than the Gizmondo...if, it actually releases, seeing as it has had a third delay. 2601:540:8200:92A:BEB4:D82A:EC1C:EEE0 (talk) 13:26, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but selling "x units" isn't a criteria for this list. Reliable sources explicitly stating it was a commercial failure are required. Even small unit movement can be profitable and a success. -- ferret (talk) 13:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Further, if the unit fails to launch, then it wouldn't be a commercial failure since it never got to a point of being commercialized. We can wait to see what happens. --Masem (t) 13:55, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intellivision Amico 

message: Check it out:
"Until the Wii U claimed the unwanted accolade a decade later, the GameCube was Nintendo’s biggest ever home console flop. But as failures go, the bold purple box was a glorious one."
https://www.videogameschronicle.com/features/gamecube-at-20/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:E084:1153:78C5:799F (talk) 14:13, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The GameCube wasn't really a failure in a commercial sense. It still made Nintendo money, even if it is one of their lowest-selling consoles. The difference between the GameCube and the Wii U is that the Wii U actually lost money. JOEBRO64 14:15, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  GameCube article proves it was considered a failure in its lifetime 

message: It's very clear that Balan Wonderworld, a 3D platform game published by Square Enix and made by Yuji Naka and Naoto Ohshima the co-creator of Sonic the Hedgehog, was a commercial failure, because it sold only 2,100 copies in its first week in Japan, and it failed to make multiple sales charts, it failed to make the top 30 in North America and Japan, and in the United Kingdom, it failed to make the top 40.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.76.69 (talk) 23:26, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: An AAA game not reaching top 30 sales charts is not a sign a game was a commercial failure. And the source of the 2100 copies is highly unreliable. We have noted the game as having notable for its negative reception, but that doesn't necessarily equate to commercial failure. --Masem (t) 01:14, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balan Wonderworld 

message: Despite the original DS game selling very well, the 3DS remake is the worst selling Mario game since the Virtual Boy, resulting in the bankruptcy of the developers, AlphaDream. Would it belong on this list? Jcharlesk (talk) 20:45, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: We'd need much strong sourcing that says that the studio's closure was directly due to poor sales of this game, and not just the implication it was the poorest selling mario game. --Masem (t) 22:53, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the game being the poorest selling Mario game not already good enough reasoning to place it on this list? Sonic Boom is on the list simply for being the poorest selling Sonic game, so I don't understand the disconnect. Jcharlesk (talk) 23:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I would actually consider removing Sonic Boom for the same reason. Being the lowest-selling game of a long-lived franchise doesn't make it a commercial failure by default. --Masem (t) 00:02, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: To follow up, someone provided a source that shows that Sonic Boom did underperform and almost caused the studio behind it to close. that's what we need to include Inside Story here, not just a connect-the-dots aspect. --Masem (t) 01:06, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not able to find a source that confirms that AlphaDream closed directly as a result of Bowser's Inside Story 3DS's poor sales (though in my opinion, it still can be inferred because that was the last game AlphaDream fully produced), but its commercial failure is still notable for another reason, being that it was the reason Nintendo stopped making 3DS games. Hopefully that is notable enough. https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2019/10/mario_and_luigi_rpg_dev_alphadream_files_for_bankruptcy Jcharlesk (talk) 20:34, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey 

message: There's a few pieces stemming from interviews off GDC and BAFTA related to Eidos' GotG game not meeting commercial success on release and thus they had turned to Game Pass to help at least recoup what they could at the end of the day. eg  It's not quite a failure per se so I'm hesistent to add but just putting it there in case more can be found. --Masem (t) 20:03, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: To add we now have that Square Enix has sold off many of its external studios including Eidos to Embracer for dirt cheap ($300M) which appears to be due to underperformance of games from these studios, though GotG is not specifically called out . --Masem (t) 12:19, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eidos' Guardians of the Galaxy 

message: What are the latest videos that lost mone 2C0F:FE38:2403:6FFE:1:0:6725:9A9C (talk) 06:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video games that actually lost money