Talk:Syrah

message: Producing wine by Muslim subjects has been forbidden in Islamic countries, but Jews and Christians subjects have been allowed to produce them for their own consumption. Usually Muslim in transgression of their own faith used to buy part of those products. Taverns are also run by non-Muslim, when allowed or when done illegally. Famous Shiraz wine used to be called Syraz Khollar (Persian Yiddish : Shiraz Khammar, where khamar is one who raise wine) used to be produced by Shiraz Jewry. Forty years ago when I travelled to Iran and visited Mullah Sadra School in old part of Shiraz, my guide, a Persian Jew from Teheran purchased a box of those wines, all seven-year-old, from a relative house. I do not know if that community still is living in Shiraz or have been faded like the Shiraz wine. Syrah is mispronunciation of Shiraz as to purport that local French or wherever as an exotic and poetical oriental item. At those times Wikipedia didn't exist to prohibit them.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.47.92 (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syrah is the same as Shiraz 

message: Syrah is a grape.  Shiraz is a style of wine made with the Syrah grape.  Since Syrah is from the rhone valley, and it was transplanted elsewhere where Shiraz was made, then shouldn't we stick to the original name of the grape?
It would be the same as calling Sauvignon Blanc "Fume Blanc Grape".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.105.234 (talk) 00:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Alan, I think I see some of the source of confusion. Syrah is a French word, period. Thus it is correct to say that Shiraz is generally known as Syrah in France. What about that statement seems incorrect? Wnissen 04:40, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Wnissen, nothing's wrong with "Shiraz is generally known as Syrah in France" -except that the way we were saying it at one stage (I have lost track of when and where) said or implied that it was called Shiraz everywhere else, which isn't true.  Alan, that is weird about the Google searches - clearly these numbers should only be trusted to +/- an order of magnitude.  However the conclusions do hold up. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

text: I have to put an addendum on Clarke's language.  The wine may be sold as Shiraz in countries that recognize that word legally, but I'm pretty sure we all call it Syrah last I checked.    see my comments below mroconnell 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The Bogle Sirah is actually a different grape - Petite Sirah. AgneCheese/Wine 07:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that the statements in the article is meant to refer to wine produced in the country in question - not what you see on the labels of imported bottles. I'm not surprised that Syrah is used, since New Zealand in general is known for cold climate-style wines and wines that are "somewhat Europan-styled", in difference to Oz. You're welcome to change it, but it would be good if you used a reliable source. In fact, that whole section could use some updating and more reliable sources. Tomas e (talk) 15:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had a look round, and couldn't find a source explicitly discussing this, so I'll leave it for now, but keep an eye open for sources.  TheAstonishingBadger (talk) 21:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shiraz vs Syrah 

message: Meanwhile, can anyone throw any light why it is "Australian" Shiraz (or Merlot or whatever), but almost always "California ..."?  Or is this just a quirk of tradition?  Come to think of it, from memory I think we have "Oregon", "New Zealand", "New York State" going like "California", but everywhere in Europe, and "South African", going like "Australian".  Well, I guess it doesn't matter, but it's odd.  It may just be that (thank goodness) we don't have words like "New Zealandian", but we do have "Californian".  Hmmm. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australia vs Australian 

message: I don't know why the old myth keeps resurfacing that links the name of the grape Shiraz with the city of Shiraz in Iran. Several sources I have cited earlier, above, demonstrate the likelihood that the grape Shiraz/Syrah originated in France. See Oz Clarke, "Encyclopedia of Grapes," Jancis Robinson, "Guide to Wine Grapes," and the "Winegrape Glossary" . Shiraz, in what was then Persia, according to Hugh Johnson's "The Story of Wine," was a major center of wine production hundreds of years ago. Even then, Johnson points out that it is doubtful that the Crusader who was supposed to have initiated winegrowing in the Hermitage region, and possibly brought back the grape from the Middle East, ever visited Shiraz. Recent DNA studies suggest strongly, if not definitively, that Syrah/Shiraz originated in Eastern France, where it shows the greatest genetic diversity to this day. -- Alan W 05:45, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myth: Shiraz in Iran 

message: Edits made to provide more clarity on the use of Shiraz/Syrah and explain the professional motivation for the choice between the two.  Also, more information provided on the taste characteristics of Shiraz and specific practical examples given for the student of wine. 5 Jan 2005
I've removed the redundant notes on this talk page. The last, anonymous, user accidentally duplicated the page while editing. I will add that I do not know why that user is hiding behind anonymity. His or her edits of the Shiraz grape article are excellent. Although not all contributors will agree with some of the changes, I think a great improvement has been made in the writing, the accuracy, the completeness, and the clarity of thought. And I include changes to my own writing when I say this. Whoever you are, thank you! -- Alan W 00:12, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by anonymous user 

message: Why is it mentione as a noble grape? I would take away but I feel like i'm missing something ... If the text means something else I think it should be rewritten? Stefan 14:17, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
News Flash:  The latest poll of the Wine Spectator (12 months ending 18 Septmember 2005) shows 365 reviews of Syrah wines and 216 reviews of Shiraz wines.  Also, regarding "noble" grape varieties, some varieties (e.g. chardonnay, reisling, cabernet sauvignon, syrah/shraz, et al.) are considered "noble" in that they are capable of producing wines of exceptional character and ageability, while some others, (e.g. chenin blanc, thompson) produce often charming but ultimately insubstantial wines.  See, for one reference, http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/noble.html  I am not aware of any definitive list of noble grapes, since one can point to exceptional wines made from any of a vast number of varieties (e.g. tempranillo, sangiovese, nebbiolo, merlot, viognier, semillon, ad infinitum). --144.132.193.97 13:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For definition of Noble grape I would suggest looking at noble_grapes in wikipedia, first change there then change here. I think Noble graps is a too old definition to bother about, but wikipedia should at least be consistent IMHO, but if you want to change back to make shiraz noble, be bold :-), I took it away to make wikipedia consistant (and I think more correct). Stefan 05:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noble grape varieties 

message: Just looking through the grapes listed on the Wine Project, this is the only one that's in the format XXXXX grape.  I understand that it's due to the other things named Shiraz, but I'm not a big fan of the way that the article is currently named.   To me, at least, it looks like that title suggests that it's referred to as the "Shiraz grape."  One of my goals is to try and make this article a good article, and I do think that having a simpler name would help.
Would it be possible to rename the article to be more inline with the other wine grapes?  Ideally I'd like to see it as Shiraz/Syrah (or the opposite), but since it looks like that violates WP:NAME I don't think that will work.  The other options I see is either go with Syrah, since that's a name that doesn't have any naming conflicts, or Shiraz (grape), which is more in line with how other topics disambiguate.
I'm personally not sure which one is better.  The books that I have that are written by an author from the U.S. or the U.K., Syrah seems to be the primary name.  The Australian authors favor Shiraz.   Syrah has the advantage of not needing any additional disambiguation, so at this point I'd lean towards that. 
I'm not formally proposing a move, I'd just like to know what the (current) editors feel.
(And just for bias reasons, I am an American, but I do call the wine that I make a Shiraz)  --- The Bethling(Talk) 05:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This entry should be listed under Syrah with a cross reference from Shiraz. Every wine book I've read (Robinson, Oz Clark, et al.) uses the name Sryah and states that Shiraz is the Australian name for the grape. Babaluma 07:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Naming (again) 

message: I noticed that a list of synonyms were just added to the introduction.   Is this really necessary (at least in the intro)?   Most of these are not particularly common, especially in English Usage.    --- The Bethling(Talk) 03:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay :)   I'll think about maybe finding a better place for the information.  --- The Bethling(Talk) 03:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Synonym listing  

message: I'd like to put in a move request for the article name because the current name is out of sync with other wine grape related articles. Between Syrah and Shiraz I will note that the Shiraz grape article was created in Feb 2002 and Syrah was created as a redirect to Shiraz grape in Sept 2002. Between those two, I have no preference but if consensus emerges for Syrah to be the article name then I would support it. The other option would be to have normal disambiguation as Shiraz (grape). A dark house candidate is the Syrah/Shiraz which doesn't seem to sync well with naming conventions either. So lets opinion up a discussion on the different names. In fairness I will invite both the French & Australian Wikiprojects to the discussion since this is obviously a regional spelling issue. But hopefully this is one we can come with an amicable consensus on. Agne 22:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

message: I was bold and went with the Shiraz (grape) move. Once the other grapes that Rmherman mentioned where formatted to consistency, there was no reason not to format this the same. AgneCheese/Wine 07:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update 

message: This obviously is full of generalizations but I would have to disagree that Shiraz is usually dark berries as opposed to red.  The McLaren Vale is often red raspberry, cherry and strawberry matched with white pepper notes.  The Barossa, as well, can tend toward the impression of darker berries due to the earth tones, spice and heft of the wines but the mid-palate is a strong, rich core of red berries along with black berries.  It is important to understand the distinction between the riper red-leaning berry flavor and the more blueberry driven tones of the rhone and californian styles.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.50.242 (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Generalizing Shiraz 

message: It looks like this article is going through some major rewriting (looking good Tomas!), so any definitive thoughts on assessment should wait till that is done. This article looks mostly on the B side but there are a couple things that jump out-
:*The Origins/Myth/Naming should probably be a separate section than a history section which could detail its spread from France to Australia, US, etc.
:*The major wine regions should probably be separated from the "Shiraz taste/aromas" etc (which could also go with a Food pairing section). The coverage of Australian & American Shiraz seems fine but there could probably be more details about Rhone/Languedoc Syrah as well as Syrah in South Africa, South America and Italy.
:*While there are not that many unique details about the Viticulture & Winemaking of Syrah, there would be enough to merit a combined section on the two with details on harvesting, vine diseases that it is sensitive too, typically alcohol and acid levels, etc. AgneCheese/Wine 00:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Thoughts on assessment

message: This ref link  is dead:<ref name="Syrah WW Origins">: Carole Meredith: Origins of Syrah, p. 3-4 in: The Syrah Producers' Club 19 April 2004 - Syrah Worldwide Roma.(The requested document was not found on this server.) I've tagged a couple of occurences, but  there may  be some more. I  haven't  searched for an  alternative because it  appears that  a task  force (if I understand correctly) will  be attending  to  this article shortly. However, if replacement  suitable sources for the variety  are found on  French  pages, I  would be most  happy to  check  them out and translate them  from  French. Just  leave a message and a link  on  my  talk  page.--Kudpung (talk) 14:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: : A paragraph from the section on Origins, reads all wrong to me. The paragraph is, 
"The DNA typing leaves no room for doubt in this matter, and the numerous other hypotheses of the grape's origin which have been forwarded during the years all completely lack support in the form of documentary evidence or ampelographic investigations, be it by methods of classical botany or DNA. Instead, they seem to have been based primarily or solely on the name or synonyms of the variety. Varying orthography for grape names render dubious any name-based evidence of origins. Nevertheless, origins such as Syracuse or the famous Iranian city of Shiraz have been proposed while the genomic studies had yet to be done." 
This does not read as having a neutral and encyclopedic tone to me, particularly when some of the claims being made as truth when in fact that are simply consensus opinions held by most, but not all of the sources of the article. 
Still I may be reading this wrong (tone is so easy to get wrong), so I thought it best to ask if others agree before I take to rewriting this paragraph. Thanks! Jmbranum (talk) 03:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues of Tone