Talk:Vilnius/Archive 4

message: I have archived large parts of the old talk pages. I have left the table with the various census up as it might become useful for the page - I really think it should go in there. teh talk relate dto it should then go into /Archive 2. The "Lithuanian Version" should after resolution of current ongoing debate go at the top of /Archive 3 Refdoc 15:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: Vilnius for centuries was the geografical center of Ethnic Lithuania. Lithuania Propria or Ethnic Lithuania is the former Vilnius Vojvodship, Trakai Vojvodship, Samogitian County (Žemaičių Seniūnija Lithuanian) (adminitrative division of Grand Duchy of Lithuania of 1566 , Lithuania Minor (Mažoji Lietuva Lithuanian) and northern part of Palenkė (Polexia)(untill river Naura (Narev). In 18th century Vileika and Dysna districts of Vilnius Vojvodship and the northern part of Palenkė were Lithuanian - Ruthenian mixed;
Very important point - Vilnius was center of Ethnic Lithuania, not of GDL -> see historical maps. Živinbudas
:Fine with me. However, we'd have to describe that it changed with time. Halibutt 16:18, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
Of course. But I have to warn that those results weren't friendly to poles until polish occupation of Eastern Lithuania (1920 - 1939). Živinbudas
::Were there any censae organised there before 1897? Feel free to add them. I know there was a city census (or rather the list of hoseholds) organised in 1657, but I thought that the results were lost during WWII. Do you have them? Halibutt 19:59, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
* Introduced into the article geographic centre of settled area. Refdoc 22:09, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you know that: "Until the end of the 19th century it also formed the geographic centre of the Lithianian settled areas". Where did you find this information ? Lysy 22:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I wonder what exactly was "Lithuanian settled areas" in 19th century. I think Halibutt firstly expressed that it changed with time and then was surprised at data as of before 1897. If this was centre of a Lithuanian settled area in 19th century then where did the Belarusians go ?  It may be right, but some explanations to support it would be helpful before it enters the article. No, I'm not trying to be difficult here, just cautious. Lysy 23:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll change "Until the end of the 19th century" into a bit weaker "Initially" until futher confirmed. Lysy 06:11, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1) Center of Ethnic Lithuania

message: Because the pages are on Lithuania and Vilnius topics (not on "Poland") we should use the Lithuanian names of official State positions and Lithuanian names of rulers of Lithuania. In Lithuania after 1392 the rulers were Grand Dukes. There was Supreme Duke of Lithuania Jogaila (since 1386) (not "Wladislaus II of Poland"), Grand Duke of Lithuania Žygimantas Senasis (not "Sigismund II of Poland"), Grand Duke of Lithuania Steponas Batoras (not "Stefan I of Poland");
:: I largely agree - i.e. I agree with regard to positions. "Grand Duke" shoudl take preference for "King of Poland" . I have some doubts with regard to the names as these are names known in English speaking countries. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  As these people were all in personal union "Grand Duke of Lithuania" and "King of Poland" it is only helpful to the reader to make this clear. Also we should use the name as established in English. In the relevant personal page we can then put teh various national names. This is good practice across Wikipedia Refdoc 16:04, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Note that the Kings/Grand Dukes are referred to by their English names here, not by their Polish names. Compare the List of Polish rulers with its Polish version. Halibutt 16:57, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
To be precise - Latin names. See my commentary above. Živinbudas
Well, it is an English encyclopedia. There is a Latin one too. Refdoc 17:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: This is not article about Lithuania or about Poland but about Vilnius. Nobody denies that Vilnius is Lithuanian town, but please also respect its history, even if it was not 100% Lithuanian history. It's also neither Polish nor Lithuanian version of wikipedia, but English. Therefore we should not be using Polish or Lithuanian names but English. Lysy 18:40, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course, a Lithuanian name will be mentioned a first time each such name is used. And Polish one too, since it is customary to give the most important regional variants. But the English name should be used in the next occurrences. See Wikipedia:Naming. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 4) Lithuanian names

message: Lithuanians always called main river of Vilnius Neris, never Vilija;
:: I think both names are currently included Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Vilija" is Belarusian for Neris AFAIK. Belarusian was an official language in Lithuania for centuries. We should be refering to the river as Neris today, because it's an official Lithuanian name and I don't think there exist any alternative English name (?) Lysy 18:44, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 5) Neris

message: On July 12, 1920 in Moscow was signed the Treaty of Peace between Lithuania and Soviet Russia where Soviet Russia recognized The Independent Republic of Lithuania with capital Vilnius and Brėslauja (Braslav), Ašmena (Ošmjany), Lyda (Lida) and Gardinas (Grodno). This treatment is in force until now and was confirmed in 1926 Treatment of nonaggression and in 1934 Prolongation of Treatment of nonaggression . On the base of this treatmaent capital and teritories were returned to the Republic of Lithuania on July, 1920;
:: The first half is included. The reconfirmation of the contract in 1926 and 1934 is only of significance if it includes a Soviet acceptance fo Vilnius as the lIthuanian capital. Please provide evidence for this. If true than this would be an interesting addition - it would to some degree explain why Vilnius was added back to Lithuania and not left with Poland or given to Belarus by Stalin. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was under the impression that Soviets had plans to create a Soviet Socialist Republic of Lithuania, and those plans were made obsolete by the Polish victory at Warsaw. Only then did the Soviet decide to transfer Vilno to the Republic of Lithuania, as a better alternative (for the Soviets) then having Vilno fall directly to advancing Polish armies. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, on the very day of signing the treaty, Soviet backed Lithuanian Communistic Party called Lithuanian proletariat to establish Soviet rule in the country. Later in August Lenin asked Kapsukas to postpone the communistic revolution in Lithuania as he considered the moment to be inappropriate in face of Soviet defeat at Warsaw (Lenin's telegram to Kapuskas of August 20). I believe this explains Soviet interest in Vilnius. Lysy 20:43, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text:  Are you aware of Moscow specifically endorsing Vilnius as capital of Lithuania in the interbellum after the Conference of Ambassadors accepted the Polish annexation? I would be very surprised if Stalin allowed a small country like Lithuania to tie him down in such matters. Could you provide a link to the ENglish translation of the treaties of 1926 and 1934 or at leats Lithuanian, Russian or Polish versions so that someone here could confirm this? If confirmed than this would be a valuable addition. Otehrwise I would suggest we keep it on file until you are able to bring the text from the treaties to all our attention. This is not to single you out, but it is the standard procedure if controversial material is introduced. Refdoc 16:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text:  That is fine. Once you have provided this we will include it. The text grows slowly and can gradually be improved. No problem if this particular bit is included today or in three weeks. Refdoc 17:02, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 9) Lithuanian-Soviet Treaty

message: Polish army after the staged mutinity, broking all international treaties and obligations craftily occupied Vilnius  on October 9, 1920. Then puppet militaries proclaimed "separate state" of "Central Lithuania" (Litwa Srodkowa Polish). Liga of Nations protested. They rejected all proposals of Liga of Nations to organise FREE PLEBISCITE after the withdrawal of occupation polish forces from these areas . There were organised falsificated "elections" to "parliament" of "Central Lithuania" under Polish occupation army. Liga of Nations never recognized those "elections" as legal. Then "parliament" of "Central Lithuania" "affiliated" "Central Lithuania" to Poland in 1922. Liga of Nations again didn't recognize that "incorporation". However Conference of Ambasadors (not Liga of Nations itself) fixed status quo after the rejecting of Lithuania and Poland of Project of Hymans ;
:: All this has now been included, marking teh points of dispute. Relevant sections have been NPOVed.Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  What was wrong with the elections? How was the Vilno/Central Lithuania parliament elected? Were ballot box switched or false voting cards dumped? Were strong arm tactics used to discourage voters? Something else? I'd like to see a source on this. The difference between LoN and CoA must be explained in text (or at least interlinked). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: What troops would you like to see there to consider the elections free ? And was anyone denied the right to vote ? or forced to vote ? I understand that any elections could be faked. Were these ? Lysy 15:08, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Regarding a plebiscite, Poland demanded it and Lithuania refused, as Lithuania would obviously loose it, considering that Lithuanian population was minimal in these areas. Lysy 15:13, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually, it was League of Nations who proposed the plebiscite, but each of the opposing sides would only agree for a plebiscite on its own conditions, which were inacceptable to the other party. Obviously a free plebiscite would be lost by Lithuania because of the demographic situation of the area. As to the parliamentary elections, it's fair to say that they were not recognised by Lithuanian government but in any way this does not imply that these elections were not free or fair. One needs some evidence to support such claims. I do not see why Poles would want to fake the elections when they were sure if the positive result anyway ? Any idea ? Lysy 20:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: And claiming that Lithuanian aothorities demanded plebiscite in Vilnius after the parliament was elected does not seem to reflect the facts. Correct me if I'm wrong. Lysy 21:37, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 10) Elections in "central Lithuania"

message: Occupied capital was totaly squalid by Poles and suffered vegetation during all time of captivity from 1920 to 1939. The standard of life in occupied Vilnius and Eastern Lithuania was several times lower than in Free Republic of Lithuania . Only few biger buildings were built in the city in that time. University of Stefan Batory became the polonization nest for occupied teritories.
:: Please bring some evidence. I have put in some of ity, indicating dispute, but mroe evdience would be useful. Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And may I come too? :) But seriously, we were trying to find some comparable evidence for that: ie statistical data and comparison of the city with other towns and cities in Poland. Could you provide such comparison? Halibutt 17:21, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
I think is should be noted that Wilna was an informal capital of Yiddish at that time (very interesting description of Jewish situation in the 1920s can be found in "Reise in Polen" by Alfred Döblin). Museum of Jewish culture was founded there in 1919; YIVO (Institute for Research of Jewish Language and Culture) in 1924. There were many Jewish theatres, newspapers and magazines, museums and schools, Jewish PEN-Club. This should not be totally neglected in the description of situation in the town before II World War. Lysy 16:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 12) Developments between 1922 and 1939 

message: The reference to polish revanchistes' web is unconscionable. Antituteišas
:: I assume you mean the last website. As such a website - even if controversial - might be a useful addition. But I have not found anything Ewnglish in it making it rather useless. So I suggest deletion - albeit for different reasons than you Refdoc 12:33, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 17) External links

message: And finally about Vilnius name. There is only Vilnius in English. Vilna is from Jewish (and in Jewish from earlier Russian Vilna. Jews somethimes use Vilna in context of Jewish issues as Kovna as well (Vilna ghetto, Kovna ghetto etcr). There is Vilnius in German now too. It is funy to mention all international names of the city (ie Warszawa, Warsaw, Warshau, Varsovia, Varšuva). I think it is enaugh to wright Vilnius - see Riga, Tallinn and other capitals in Wikipedia. Živinbudas
:Like it or not, the city used to be referred to in English with many names - Vilna included. Halibutt 18:19, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
::The reason for mentioning the name in Polish and Yiddish is that the city played and important role in the history of both Poles and Jews. The same for Belarusian name. This is quite customary, harmless and can be considered as a useful piece of information. Compare with other cities with rich multinational history, e.g. Gdansk or Poznan. Lysy 21:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 18) city names

message: Listen to me very carefully now. SOLUTION will be then, when every of 17 points from basic Lithuanian version will be placed beside polish false statements  without any change in new text. And the same in Lithuania text (explanations in Talk: Lithuania. It is my last offer. Živinbudas
:I'm afraid your ultimatum won't work. Halibutt 11:26, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
And you could added: Lithuanian POV, polish POV. But I very good know, it isn't in your interests. Darknesses always fear the light. This fear shows that you are weak, very weak. Its reality. Živinbudas
: Please have a look at 17 points you have made. I put my comments to it. as said before, large parts already are incorporated in teh current version if you look carefully. Some bits require additional evidence from your side. Please provide this and we can proceed with incorporating your suggestions. Please desist from personal attacks or threats against anyone. Refdoc 12:37, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Without changes" is obviously not something anyone would consider. Teh article is teh product of many people's contribution and your contribution is ne among many.  I think you must learn that Wikipedia's aim is not to make judgements which version is teh "right" one but to provide information, unbiased and witha  neutral point of view. If there is dispute than not one version will be chosen , but the dispute documented. "Historian A feels this, Historian B says that"  Refdoc 13:18, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Good. I am grateful that something like a debate is now happening. I would prefer if others would now contribute too. I would also like to stress that this is always going to be a contributory article, not a "true" or "national" version. Teh final version will have to reflect both Lithuanian, GHerman, Russian, Polish, ehatever views if these are relevant to the matter. If I could get a guarantee that you will continue to discuss in the manner you are doing now, will stop doing reverts and will stop calling people offensive names I think we could unprotect the page and edit jointly again.  Refdoc 15:47, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: The next step? If you confirm that you will not anymore revert, nor call people names I will unprotect the page allowing all of us to continue editing. Refdoc 16:23, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dear Refdoc 

message: I am very glad for the major improvement of the tone on this page. I will not yet unprotect as I would like to be quite clear that this is not going to lead immediately back into teh old behaviour. I really must insist that you make an undertaking not to revert war again or to insult otehr people again. I also would like to suggest you that you get registered. This has many advantages, the first one obviously is that people find it esier to deal with you. Another advantage for yourself is that that you gain a lot of facilities which make your own editing easier - e.g a watchlist where you can see how articles you care about change shape. If you require any advice how to do this, just put a note onto my talk page. I also must warn you that Wikipedia can be able to defend itself if really required - i.e. user who are permanently offensive and disruptive can be banned in rather effective ways I think a number of other users are very upset with your past comments so any further commenst might well trigger serious complaints. Refdoc 20:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Refdoc, if you will really succeed in transforming this...person...into a productive member of Wikipedia community, you are truly great. Wish you luck. You may want to append your proposition with a note that this should apply to all of our dear anon contributions, not only this page, though, to avoid any confusion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotecting and Registering 

message: I think it is time to draw together some of the conclusions of the discussions above and produce a summarised version. I will do this later tonight in form of another /subpage. Once we have some sort of agreement and once our anonymous contributor has made his commitment as explained above we can reopen the page and archive this mess here... :-) Refdoc 19:46, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I second Dirgela, that the history section should be much abbreviated here. It's much too long for an article about a city. Only the basic facts should be mentioned, and not the deeper discussions. Lysy 21:40, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Allright. Later, when things settle down a bit I'd suggest first removing all references to general history, not specifically relating to the city itself. Lysy 22:02, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summing up 

message: I'd like to remove the less important paragraphs (like the legend etc.) from the "History" section as they rather belong to the History of Vilnius article, and this section here seems unnecessarily long already. Lysy 17:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Shortening "History" section

message: I would like to remove this link. I have not found any English texts in this site - maybe I did not look hard enough, but without a good reason (and explanation) a foreign language site should really not be here. I understand that our anonymous contributor had other reasons for having it removed but i think really teh language issue is perfectly adequate to have it gone (unless there is a very valid reason and this reason is given) Refdoc 21:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at it and it seems it's a collection of Polish sites about Vilnius. Interesting, but could not find anything in English there. Lysy 04:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I think it can be deleted and that's what I've just done. I'm sure that if there's any good reason to have it here, someone will explain this. In fact I'm not sure about some other ext links either. Lysy 13:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: www.wilno.pl

message: Zivibundas and Wiktacy, what's up with your edit war on this article? I suggest you discuss the changes on this page before changing the article so dramatically. A consensus is needed for this article, and there's not going to be one if you just revert each other's changes. For example, my personal opinion is that shortening the list of Vilnans to just two or removing big parts of the history section isn't appropriate. Please discuss and try to reach a consensus on the content, thanks. Solver 13:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The edit war

message: There's been enough of this nonsense. Feel free, of course, to hash it out here on the talk page, that's what it's for. But in the meantime, I've protected the article from editing. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  23:27, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. Zivinbudas is back from holidays and vandalising again. And here we go again... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:59, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Me? Polish? Nope, I'm a Canadian kid. Poland is very nice, as is Lithuania. I just would like to see things settle down. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  05:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't know, isn't it a little childish to namecall, when the other people might think they are as correct as you are? Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  06:02, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I simply kept it protected at the most recent version. I'm not neccesarily saying either version is correct. We need to work on a compromise here. User:Piotrus, do you have anything to add? Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  09:14, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: How's that? The most recent version was User:Witkacy's reversion of User:Zivinbudas's edits. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  09:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I had nothing to do with that. I'm not Polish, so don't be blaming me. Like I said previously, I'm from Canada. Let us not be concerned with the Lithuania page right now, only with Vilnius.  Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  10:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Fowler's Modern English Usage states that the possessive forms of proper nouns ending with a vocalised "s" require an apostrophe followed by another "s". Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  10:21, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for hot information. It is very different to what I learned. 85.206.193.33 10:26, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Always a pleasure. Now then, If I stay any longer I'm going to be late for school, so feel free to write further comments here, on my talk page, or to edit planned versions of the page at Vilnius/Temp1. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  10:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I ate a sandwich at school today. I'm surprised you didn't add anything. How am I supposed to know what you want for the page, if nobody provides any examples? I'm assuming you wish for the Vilnius page to eventually be restored, please help in doing so. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  04:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This has gone far enough 

message: If anyone wishes to complain about the current version of this page, now is the time. If nobody brings forth any grievances against this page in 24 hours' time, I shall assume, that this version is correct, and that the current parties who previously argued against it, have decided it is correct. As always, I can be contacted on my talk page. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  10:01, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Again with the name-calling. Shame on you! Can we not deal with this simply and directly? Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  04:17, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I appreciate your attempt at mediation, however as you  will soon see (or can see going through talk above and archieves) it is basically the single user crusade against the world, with no respect for 3RR or any other policy. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:00, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am moving my comment 'I appreciate...' here, since the anon is moving it around making it sound like I am complementing him, which of course is not the case. Anyway, his attempt to falsifly the discussion is just one more reason why I advocate range ban as the only feasible solution here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:38, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  12:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice 

message: On reading through the history and talk pages, and reviewing findings with independent sources, I've found that the state of the article (as reverted by User:Witkacy is vastly preferable. Most of the differences in Zivinbudas's version seem to involve the POV removal of information, and the occasional entry of poorly-worded POV entries. The only discrepancies I seem to find might involve its ties to Mindaugas; I can't tell how valid those claims might be. Also, is there any reason for the removal of the 1912 Vilnius picture found in Zivinbudas's version, but not in Witkacy's? 
There are, certainly, many details that need to work themselves out; I believe a collaboration system would work best, as it seemed to previously. More work should probably be done between Vilnius and History of Vilnius, but I think we may be well on our way. 
I'd appreciate any comments by any involved parties, either here, or on my talk page. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy)  11:34, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conclusion 

message: All users, please see history of Talk:Vilnius -> change by Piotr 13:04, May 4, 2005. After he blame other user for returning his statement to earlier place, blame him for falsification and demand range blocking. And of course polish "administrator" agree with provocateur. I fully persuaded that this is usual practic of polish falsificators. Continue this and compromite yourself in eyes of users from all world. Zivinbudas 14:27, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I simply corrected your action of insterting your comments above mine without a margin, instead of below. Whether it was on purpose or by accident, it created the impression that I relied to you instead of Rhymless. Learn wiki-etiquette - and netiquette as well would help you as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:50, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provocateur 

message: Zivinbudas as far as I can tell there was no support for your edits last time. Please discuss changes here.--nixie 05:05, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protected again=

message: How long has this page been protected?? The 9th of June? Since Zivinbudas is banned, do we need it to remain as such? (P.S.: sorry for me having to drop out of the discussions here a few months ago, I lost my internet connection) Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy) 00:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. And, next time, please list it at WP:RfPP, where I've redirected your pages (Wikipedia:Requests for unprotection and Wikipedia:Requests for page unprotection). The requests for protect/unprotection are so small that they can fit into one page, though in the future those pages may be necessary. Flcelloguy | A  note? | Desk  20:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I was the one that originally protected it. I was just making sure verybody agreed that it was okay to unprotect. Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy) 04:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: The Warsaw and Krakow articles are good examples for cities' alternative names. Both Warsaw and Krakow has many alternative names in different languages. It is not necessary to mention them all. There is only link to Names of European cities in different languages in these articles. I think Vilnius article isn't somehow different. I think we have to follow good examples. So I do that. Bf-109 06:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good examples 

message: I decided to add this mark, because article is fully falsificated and represents only Polish POV. Bf-109 14:34, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding mark