Talk:List of oldest schools

message: I think this list will become unmanageable if we include all schools from the 1800s onwards. We need to set a limit. Should the list perhaps be confined to schools founded before 1700 or before 1600? Dahliarose (talk) 15:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed Greggydude (talk) 09:06, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

text: I've removed the proposed deletion tag. In response to your points: As the intro makes clear, this is a list of the oldest extant schools. If you are aware of any extant schools in former Babylon, please contribute them to the list. You are right that continuous activity may not always be straightforward, but reliable sourcing of claims should normally suffice. The list should have references, but many of the linked articles contain the references. Instead of immediately deleting the content some effort should be made to find, verify, and add the references here. The list has a natural cutoff point - currently the year 1600. If the list becomes too long this will probably be adjusted. As you've suggested most future additions are likely to be from outside the UK, so the list is likely to increasingly differ from the list of oldest UK schools. In summary, there seems to be no reason to prefer deletion over improvement. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: It is unclear what this list is good for, what should go into this list and whether the most relevant (the oldest) entries will ever be added. 
The biggest problem with the current form of the list is that there are no references at all.
In the current form, I propose deletion of this list.
It is clear that every pupil now adds HIS school (which he thinks is most important, of course), founded in 1823 (or wasnt there some mentioning from the 16th century?).
Lots of schools have been added this way (and I see mostly UK schools, but there is also the (almost identical) list of UK schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_oldest_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom ). I further propose that each and every list entry MUST have a valid reference or it should be deleted (the "unreferenced" template seems to be on top of the article since a year now.). 
Some words about the "missing content":
The first known schools ? What about Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome ? They had schools for sure, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripatetic_school
Even if the list is closed at 1000 there are loads of schools to be added (there are some 10 or 20 other countries in the world that had schools a thousand years ago ...). You could say, only schools that are still active (and always have been), but thats again difficult to find out.
Summary:
* add the really old schools from egypt, china, greece,..
* get a reference for each entry
or DELETE THIS LIST.
--89.27.217.18 (talk) 22:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the proposed deletion tag. In response to your points: As the intro makes clear, this is a list of the oldest extant schools. If you are aware of any extant schools in former Babylon, please contribute them to the list. You are right that continuous activity may not always be straightforward, but reliable sourcing of claims should normally suffice. The list should have references, but many of the linked articles contain the references. Instead of immediately deleting the content some effort should be made to find, verify, and add the references here. The list has a natural cutoff point - currently the year 1600. If the list becomes too long this will probably be adjusted. As you've suggested most future additions are likely to be from outside the UK, so the list is likely to increasingly differ from the list of oldest UK schools. In summary, there seems to be no reason to prefer deletion over improvement. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What should go into this list ? Should it be deleted ? 

message: This list is getting quite out of hand. Schools founded in the 1800s and 1900s can hardly be classified as "old". I suggest cutting out at least the nineteenth and twentieth century, and preferably the eighteenth century too. There would be hundreds of UK schools alone that could be added from this period. Dahliarose (talk) 23:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it would be useful to somehow divide the list into oldest per country/region. -- zzuuzz (talk) 09:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There are already other lists for the oldest schools in England and the oldest schools in the United States. There seems little point in duplicating these lists here with the hundreds of schools that were set up in the 1800s or even 1700s. I would suggest confining the list to pre-1700 or even pre-1600, with detail lists of later schools being maintained for individual countries if required. Dahliarose (talk) 14:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Cut-off point needed

message: Many of schools listed are described as being public/ private/ state schools.
As "public" has different meanings depending on which country you live in. I suggest we only use the terms "private" and "state" to describe whether or not it is government run.151.230.133.20 (talk) 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it's an ambiguous term and the article is better off without it. I also intend to remove the school in Chengdu. The objection has repeatedly been made that most very old schools have at some time suspended operations for short periods (wars, riots). In fact, I've very rarely heard of a school suspending teaching and I see no evidence this applies to any of the schools in this list. If any did cease to exist for short periods, they can be considered on a case by case basis and might be removed, as the Minster School was. So far I see no need to set a definite cut off period of, say, one year. --Lo2u (T • C) 15:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public/ Private/ State School 

message: Just to reiterate my comments above. I have many friends in Chengdu, I have visited and I know at least a little about the school. My understanding is that it was destroyed and stayed destroyed for generations. Even though residents like to claim that it is 2,000 years old, they readily acknowledge that the history is not continuous. That also seems to be what is implied by the Wikipedia article on the school. Two schools are not the same if they were merely built on the same site. As I have already said, many other schools have been disallowed for the same reason, The Minster School, York for instance. --Lo2u (T • C) 16:00, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. (regarding your summary) It is up to you to provide evidence for inclusion of something, not me to disprove it. That is the policy laid out in WP:VERIFY. 2. I have no way of knowing whether there are many users adding this or one user with a dynamic IP address. 3. Refounding something and giving it the same name doesn't make it the same institution. Obviously if it did anybody could easily establish "the oldest school in the world". Nor does a change in name disqualify something from this list. 4. Your addition is inconsistent with everything else in this list and with similar lists such as List of oldest universities in continuous operation, where, for example, Paris University is excluded. If you want to change the policy to allow refoundations, you need to get consensus rather than simply adding your favourite and that will require the addition of many other schools. --Lo2u (T • C) 06:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

text: Reply to 1: I have added one more reference to the school. Reply to 3: We have different understanding about the rebuilding. If any school is unfortunately destroyed by fire or wars which could happen even today, after some years the school is rebuilt, according to your opinion, it is another school? So once such things happen to any school on the list, no matter it is rebuilt or not, we should exclude it? Reply to 4: I don't have enough knowledge to say if all the other schools are continuous or not, but Chengdu Shishi High School is continuous for 2000 years except for the time when it was destroyed by fire and during wars, which is not the case you mentioned, for example, University of Paris.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 08:53, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is ridiculous. Your account of its history is frankly misleading. It wasn't destroyed and then rebuilt. It was destroyed and abandoned and then decades or centuries later another school was put on the same site. All you have provided is an incomplete reference to a self-published source and a source for the original building of the school. Absolutely nothing reliable to say it has a continuous history, because it doesn't. That is the criteria for inclusion here. --Lo2u (T • C) 11:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You said the school was abandoned for centuries several times (even some users use the number of 500 years), could you please provide the time? From which year or which dynasty to which year or dynasty. If you can provide the evidence, I can check the local history record of Chengdu City according to the time you provide. And please define "another school". If you think the reference is incomplete, you can challenge the reference, other users can add more to it, for example, the local history records from Han Dynasty through all the dynasties to modern China.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.235.201.120 (talk) 14:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Centuries is what is implied, if not explicitly stated, by this sentence in the article on the school: "The school continued through the Northern Song Dynasty, but by the late Ming Dynasty only rubble remained". Can't you provide the dates anyway? If a school is abandoned and allowed to fall into ruins and two generations later some different people build a school there, most people would define that as a different school. Usually to be the oldest of something a continuous history is needed. The House of Elzevir is not the same as Elsevier. The Modern Olympic Games are not the same as the Ancient Olympic Games. The University of Northampton (thirteenth century) is not the same as the University of Northampton. Do you accept that This school does not have a continuous history? I think you do because you acknowledge that above. I really don't understand how you can honestly claim to believe this belongs.  --Lo2u (T • C) 15:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In late Ming Dynasty, Zhang Xianzhong occupied Chengdu in 1644-1646, during this time, Chengdu City was almost destroyed and many residents were killed, the school was for sure damaged, with only rubble remained. Early in Qing Dynasty, in 1661, the government rebuilt the school. I can't be sure if it was exactly the same people who rebuilt the school or totally different group of people, but in my opinion if the traditional education system was still there, why do we have to care who actually did the rebuilding work? Of course the Modern Olympic Games are not the same as the Ancient Olympic Games, simply because the ancient one was abandoned by the ruler and the modern one was started after 1500 years. The example of University of Northampton is similar to Olympic Games. I agree with you that they don't have continuous history. But, the two examples are not the same case as Chengdu Shishi High School, because it was not abandoned by the rulers in history, it was destroyed by city fire and wars which are irresistible disasters and could happen to any schools on the list even today. After such disasters, the school was rebuilt and became normal again.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 19:30, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

text: Description on the school wiki page is not very clear. The reason might be that wikipedia is blocked by the government in China. Unfortunately the Chinese people who know well about the school history can't access to wiki and contribute. But improvement on the school page is needed for sure.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.95.57 (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chengdu Shishi Middle School 

message: The lead says this list excludes universities and higher education establishments; consequently I have removed the following from this article.  I supposed they should be moved to List of oldest universities in continuous operation.
* Al-Azhar University,Egypt (c972)Al-Azhar University
* Yuelu Academy, China (976) - one of the four most renowned academies during the Song Dynasty, it was renamed Hunan University in 1926.Yuelu Academy
* University of Bologna, Italy (1088)
* Istanbul University, Istanbul, Turkey (1453)
If they are moved elsewhere, please mark them .  YBG (talk) 08:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-secondary schools 

message: # Tags at the head of an article do not help the reader, remember WP:RF.  Whilst they have a place for major problems, adding them promiscuously doesn't help; try correcting any perceived shortcomings instead.
# I've removed , the list has changed a lot since then and most schools have their own pages.  Generally lists are just lists, pages contain the information.
#  is a bit odd, the first school mentioned is in China!  The first paragraph contains the sentence "The list is a work-in-progress, and there will inevitably be many omissions, particularly for schools in non-English-speaking countries.", what does the tag add?  If you have any documented additions, just add them.
Over to you! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:22, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagging 

message: See talk:Dunfermline High School for a discussion on the date of founding.  Currently available evidence indicates that there were two Dunfermline schools between 1468 and 1560.  One was the old monastic school in the Abbey (founded 1120), the other a new school in the town.  I'm therefore moving Dunfermline High School from 12th to 15th century. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:53, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Dunfermline High School

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Are we sure the school Flade in St. Gallen is so old? In there site (and in Wiki in German) is written it has been founded in 1808.
vd  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viorayli (talk • contribs) 22:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flade St. Gallen  

message: Queen Elizabeth's Academy, Atherstone, Warwickshire.  I've some doubts about the claimed date.  Can interested editors discuss it there. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:24, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queen Elizabeth's Academy 

message: I'm sure there's something we can find, search else as europe.
--Joujyuze (talk) 17:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non western schools? 

message: It is known that the Lviv brotherhood school founded in 1463. The Kyiv brotherhood and school were founded in 1615. The Lutsk brotherhood school founded in 1617.
The Kyiv brotherhood was also transformed into the Kyiv-Mohyla Collegium in 1632. And the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy in 1659.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_brotherhood 89.105.249.217 (talk) 21:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There may be a couple of problems here though.  First, many of these schools were closed during periods of Russian and communist so they fail the "continuous operation since founded" test.  Next, from a brief look at National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy it would appear that (in their modern guise at least) they are universities, not "schools, excluding universities and higher education establishments", so fail the second test.  If you have reliable sources outside WP, it would be helpful if you could give them so that a fair and balanced judgement can be made.  Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthodox brotherhoods had their own schools. 

message: From the German Wikipedia, Flade School appears to only date from 1808: "The school was founded in 1808".  It appears to have been built in the buildings of the former monastery school (ante 819 to 1805) but not to be directly connected to it.  I include the GoogleTranslate version of the history below; the school website appears to be silent on this point.  Before I remove the entry from the list, can anyone add additional information or comments please.
Let's say by 24 April please. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 18:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, I'm going to be WP:BOLD and revert the edit.  If anyone can find information that supports the inclusion, please come here with it. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I should have marked that as a small edit: I merely wanted to correct the grammar, because "ending 7th century" would mean it ended in the 7th century, while "late 7th century / end of the 7th century" was no doubt intended; "ending" was probably a Germanism or Batavism, e.g. "Ende/eind" x-th century. So I had no idea about the age of the school and did not mean to express an opinion on it. If your research invalidates the whole century, I have no objections to its deletion. — Cerberus™ (talk) 04:42, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flade