Talk:Platformer

message: Where is the term "hop and bop" defined? This article does not cite any references regarding "hop and bop". Personally, I have never heard about that before. A bit of googling brought me to this http://joshwillard.com/platformgames/?page_id=19 - which mentions Boutros 2006. I do not know what he means by Boutros 2006, but I believe he might be talking about this: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130268/a_detailed_crossexamination_of_.php?page=1 However, not a single page in that examination mentioned "hop and bop". I can find some forum posts mentioning hop and bop (and for example this http://dailytrojan.com/2011/08/23/2d-platformers-begin-to-make-astonishing-comeback/ but it is possible that the writer of that article has used Wikipedia as his source), but it doesn't seem to be a very common term.
Does anyone have any information on the origins of this term? Should it even be used in this article? It's been two years since that section has had "original research" tag. Maybe it's time to remove parts of the section? 88.115.93.18 (talk) 19:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I could dig up references to it. It's an American term and was a pretty common term in the '90s when most of these games were made, but I don't hear it much anymore. I've also heard "jump and run," but I think that's more European. Frogacuda (talk) 01:28, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: The whole article is heavy biased toward consoles, with no mention of home computers such as ZX Spectrum, Amstard CPC or Commodore 64.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.31.65.34 (talk) 19:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The article mentions, many, many significant games that originated on computers, like Jet Set Willy, Impossible Mission, Prince of Persia, Shadow of the Beast, Snokie, Commander Keen, Alpha Waves, etc. I really went out of my way to include important games from arcades, computers, handhelds, and consoles, as well as international games. What do you feel is missing as far as games that contributed something significant to the genre? Specific mentions of systems isn't really enough. Most of the time the articles simply says "computers" because these games were often multiplatform. Frogacuda (talk) 18:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Console Bias

message: The caption on  the second image states Super Mario Bros. is the best selling video game of all time. This seems likely to become potentially outdated, if not already. Perhaps 'as of (date)' should be added to prevent this? - AlKing464 04:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not likely to become obsolete any time soon. According to the 1999 Guiness Book of World Records it had sold more than 40 million copies on NES alone. That's more than GTA3, Vice City, San Andreas, and Halo 2 combined, and well over double the nearest runner up. I don't see it changing any time soon. Frogacuda 06:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Super Mario Bros.

message: i don't feel as though the section on run and gun platform games works very well, for instance why is megaman not in it? i think it would be a far stretch to say that megaman games aren't linear and as far as the platform jumping criteria goes, the whole of the second stage of contra is nothing but platform jumping! i can understand where earthworm jim and vectorman are concerned, as the gameplay is not as linear in those games.
:The short answer is because you wouldn't call Megaman a shooter. A run and gun is both a platformer and a shooter, and if it's one and not the other, then it isn't a run and gun. Frogacuda 17:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The jumping parts of Contra are hard to miss. The platforms are huge. It's simplified in a sense. In any event, I wouldn't call Megaman a run and gun, nor have I seen it classified as such, but you do raise a good point that it might not be the best counterexample to use. I'll change it. Frogacuda 22:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this is late, but in Mega Man you can backtrack through whole levels and pick any order of levels to play.  I can't recall but I think you can even replay previous levels.  So I don't get where you are saying that it's totally linear with no backtracking. 70.112.210.203 (talk) 10:18, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Megaman

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*Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Needs a lot more references before it's GA worthy M3tal H3ad 06:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Automated review

message: Should probably have mentioned this earlier, but my main intent here is to tighten the prose as an FA candidate.  Mostly, I'm going to be trying to remove unnecessary words, rephrase where I think a sentence might be unclear, and replace elements I think might be too casual in tone ("whiz through the levels," for instance).  This process does sometimes make things sound choppier, so go ahead and continue passing over my own pass. ^_^ Shimeru 06:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, sometimes some subtleties get lost in editing. For things that I felt didn't quite work I've been trying to look at why you changed them and find something that addresses that as well as preserves  what I was trying to communicate, rather than doing a straight revert. I appreciate another voice on the copy editing front. Hopefully it'll pass, but we haven't been getting  alot of voices on the review :/ Frogacuda 05:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't think it's quite ready yet.  The prose still needs some work, which's why I've been trying to copyedit it.  (Unfortunately, I have very little free time just now with which to do so, so I'm going at it a section at a time.)  It could probably use a couple more citations too.  I've elected not to support or oppose it until I've had a shot at improving it.  There's a chance it could slip through the cracks, so to speak; the best thing for it would be to continue improving it and renominate it in a month or two, making sure any previous objections have been fully addressed. Shimeru 21:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedit(s) 

message: In what must count as a classic example of the long tail with respect to computer games...
This reference is poorly written and, I think, factually wrong. I  would change it but what with the award and all,...jcp 12:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long tail 

message: "The Nintendo 64 had the fewest 2D platformers — only Yoshi's Story and Mischief Makers — and both met with a tepid response from critics at the time."
Would not the game "Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Subzero" be counted?
KxWaal 02:53, 01 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's generally considered to be a beat 'em up (or fighting game if you're in Europe. 68.45.100.233 17:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  There Only Being Two N64 2D Platform Games 

message: As I was reading the article, this caption caught my eye.
[[Super Nintendo he the game maker is pimp aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa<mat4568765Italic text[22]</math>
Does anyone know what that was all about?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.216.187.23 (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have contacted the FBI and it looks like it was one of those damn virus hackers. -- 77.182.241.74 (talk) 22:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hacker, Vandal, or Virus? 

message: The image :Image:SonicTheHedgehog1.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:SonicTheHedgehog1.png

message: It seems as though there's a missing subgenre of platformers where exploration of a large environment is the main focus, and the abilities gained by the character are primarily used for exploration. Metroid and the various Metroidvanias would probably fall under this category, as would Shadow Complex and (arguably) Cave Story and the more recent Mega Man games such as ZX. Should there be an additional subgenre clasification for these? - 203.117.64.67 (talk) 08:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There already is a classification for those - Metroidvania (or Castleroid if you're one of THOSE people)08:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Open-world platformers as a subgenre? 

message: In this section, there is no mention to New Super Mario Bros. Wii, with over 10 million copies sold to date, and being a true platformer in a 7th gen console. --neolandes (talk) 17:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Platformers into the present 

message: I believe there should be a mention of games like Elastomania and X-Moto and all the many clones and variations on the theme that are out there. --TiagoTiago (talk) 10:31, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about wheeled platformers? 

message: "Europe, North America, and Japan have played major parts in the genre's evolution"
Well, seeing as 99% of the games until recently were developed in those three regions that's hardly surprising and true for every genre per default. Of course there are exceptions like FPS. Maybe it actually wants to tell us that no single region had more influence than others? I'd probably agree with that but wouldn't it be more useful to say something like "Platform games have been popular all around the globe"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Janbt (talk • contribs) 16:30, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  How does this line add anything to the text? 

message: "Others, like Space Panic and Lode Runner, are excluded because they lack the jump mechanic that is central to nearly all modern definitions of the genre"
Why then does our own Lode Runner page state that it is a platform game? --Janbt (talk) 21:01, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Because there's disagreement on the subject. The overwhelming majority of definitions include jumping as the core mechanic, so that's the one this article should use, but obviously there are people who consider Lode Runner a platform game, particularly at the time it was released. This dispute is acknowledged in the article.Frogacuda (talk) 01:31, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lode Runner 

message: why wasn't super metroid mentioned at all? i inserted a brief mention [ that maybe disrupted the (excellent!) prose that was there.. ] --187.40.231.105 (talk) 11:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The short answer is that games were prioritized more by innovation, impact, and commercial success than by quality, and Super Metroid sold modestly and didn't innovate anything significant, despite being a truly excellent game.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.184.181 (talk) 23:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  super metroid 

message: Jump and run redirects to this, but it is not mentioned in the article at all. Is it a synonym or some sub-genre? --Enmoku (talk) 05:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a synonym for the "Hop and Bop" genre (for action games like Sonic and Mario), or "Cinematic Platformer" for the non-action exploration games such as Knytt Stories. --118.90.102.124 (talk) 07:48, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Jump and Run or Jump 'n' Run is a term commonly used in Germany for platformers. In fact, that's the genres name over here. Opinions are split though whether it refers to all platformers or just the Hop and Bop subgenre.--Janbt (talk) 00:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jump and Run 

message: There was no password system in "Alex Kidd in Miracle World". Please stop spreading lies. The source given in the article clearly refers to "High Tech World", and if that exceeds your mental capacity, you should probably not edit articles about topics you obviously have no clue about. 85.177.2.226 (talk) 10:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Passwords in Alex Kidd 

message: Maybe it's just me, but it seems as if there's too many images around the single screen and scrolling movement sections. Perhaps we can cut down on the pictures around that area? --Newimagekirby (talk) 01:32, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cluttered images 

message: Here is an example of a turn-based platformer that may not qualify as an Action game. SharkD  Talk  02:51, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turn-based platformer 

message: A couple of suggestions that might deserve mentioning/developing. Alongside Vikings were two famous similar games: Humans, and the Lemmings series.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Issar El-Aksab (talk • contribs) 23:04, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puzzle platformers 

message: and  (I suspect you are the same person, but just in case not I'll tag both of you), continuing to revert one another won't solve anything, so I'm taking my own advice and bringing this to the talk page so others can weigh in. Why are you so incensed at this screenshot in particular being in the article? It seems like such an unusually specific objection. I'm not intending to promote the game - I have no ties to its developer and demonstrably didn't, as you seem to have implied, join Wikipedia just to promote the game; I joined several years before it even began development. If I were, that behavior would be discouraged, but not would not constitute direct grounds for removal of the image if it were determined to fit.
Based on your objections and your hasty addition of a Super Meat Boy screenshot, I suspect you're not familiar with Wikipedia's stringent non-free content policies. Any copyrighted image in an article must demonstrate in its fair-use rationale that it significantly illustrates the subject of the article in a way that no free image could. I added images of Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness and Final Fantasy III (the DS version) to the Role-playing video game article a few years back, but they were removed at separate times for not offering anything substantial that a free image couldn't. With Freedom Planet, however, all of the images in its article have been freely licensed and thus are not subject to these copyright restrictions. That's why the Trine image remains in this article despite the game itself not having much historical significance, and the same is true of Freedom Planet. Any free screenshots of platformers would be fair game for this article, but these two in particular make sense because they illustrate recent developments in the genre: puzzle-platformers (Trine) and retro platformers (Freedom Planet).
There very well may be intelligent arguments against the inclusion of one or both images, but repeatedly accusing me of promotion isn't one of them. At the very least, please take the hidden comments into account and come here with concerns instead of continually reverting (which, to be fair, I didn't do right away, either). Tezero (talk) 04:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What other Wiki pages? Tezero (talk) 05:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

text: Ah. Well, those are both because it began as a Sonic fangame. I will add the image back, thanks, but if anyone else contests it we can simply reopen this discussion as needed. Tezero (talk) 06:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''[[Freedom Planet]]'' screenshot 

message: As many subgenres of platformers as there are in this article, some iconic subgenres are noticeably missing. Where is the momentum-based platformer, in the vein of Sonic, Freedom Planet, and Marble Blast? Where is the twitch platformer, e.g. I Wanna Be The Guy, Syobon Action, and Battle Kid? Where is the precision platformer, if that is its technical term? The type of platformer that Mario is, that Super Meat Boy is, that so many platformers try to be? This should be sorted out. Oobooglunk (talk) 07:03, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: We need reliable sources to make the distinction on these finer points - they exist as fan terms but they're not well used in media sources. --MASEM (t) 13:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subgenres of Platforming 

message: Per the title, the common name of "platform games" is "platformer", as seen in basically every reliable source used by Wikipedia. ~ Dissident93 (talk)  03:37, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We probably should start a formal move request for this. I think this is the right assessment but it's a good idea to assure consensus on that. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article should be moved to Platformer 

message: Hello, the article confuses the conecpts of endless runner and auto runner. In an endless runner, the level has no end, and is sometimes generated procedurally. In an auto runner, the player does not control the character's scrolling, only jumping. An auto runner is not necessarily endless, as there may be predefined levels. And an endless runner is not necessarily an auto runner. --167.58.140.0 (talk) 13:40, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Endless runner and auto runner 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: § Endless running game should be renamed. These are actually auto-runner games, that may or may not be endless. Mobygames correctly uses "auto-run", because this includes ("daring escape" and) "endless runner" games. German Wikipedia at :de:Auto-Runner also correctly uses "Auto-Runner" and then states that if the route is not finite, "wird auch von einem Endless-Runner oder Infinite-Runner gesprochen". Eurogamer correctly writes about an "auto-runner" here; Pocket Gamer does this here. The section should be renamed to "Auto-runner game". Then Auto-runner, Auto-runner game, Auto-running, Autorun game, Autorunning, Autorunning game, Auto running, Auto running game, Auto run game, Auto runner, Auto runner game, Auto-run game, Autorunner game and Autorunner should be pointed to the section. Auto-running game, Endless running and Endless running game should be modified. And Autorun could become a disambiguation page for AutoRun and the renamed section, with Auto-run and Auto run pointing to the disambiguation page. --143.176.30.65 (talk) 22:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: On second thought, there are even further-reaching differences, making neither a subcategory of the other. This means big chunks of the aforementioned section need to be rewritten. I'll make an attempt. --143.176.30.65 (talk) 22:17, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Done (). --143.176.30.65 (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: They are two very different genres, but with overlaps. Autorunners mean that the player has no direct control on the forward direction of the character and just has to time the movement of the character. Endless runners are those that the player may or may not have control on forward movement, but where the level goes on forever until the player messes up. --Masem (t) 23:14, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Endless running game" section should be renamed 

message: I think Little Nightmares and Little Nightmares II deserve to be mentioned, as contemporary high-profile representatives of the genre. I would also include Planet Alpha and Stela in the list, and would mention the games in chronological order. Kumagoro-42 (talk) 17:34, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: We'd likely need a reliable source or two that talk about these type of narrative or cinematic platformers. --Masem (t) 17:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern cinematic platformers 

message: Quite simply put, in common modern-day parlance, "platformer" is infinitely more commonly used when talking about these games. Obviously the article shouldn't be rewritten to exclusively use this term, since "platform game" was historically used, so it makes sense to use it in that case. But for the article title, I feel it should be the most commonly-used name for the genre, and in this case that is "platformer" fairly unambiguously. Harmonia per misericordia. OmegaFallon (talk) 19:27, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal: rename page to "platformer" 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ❯❯❯ Raydann(Talk) 03:29, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Platform game →  – The genre is overwhelmingly called platformer not platform game. There have been many people on the talk page trying to propose moves but not formally doing it for years. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose There's no evidence that either term has significantly more usage than the other, and "platform game" is more standard with our other genre articles. Masem (t) 03:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

text: Support per @Zxcvbnm, platformer as a term is extremely common.  Killuminator (talk) 14:45, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 19 September 2023 

message: This is a major genre page, so changing the name based on a 2-1 vote is ridiculous. It needed to be done in a forum with more visibility.
Second, both terms are common. If I type "platform" into the App Store search box, the top result is "Platform game" and the next is "Platformer".
A change like this cascades out into pointless work renaming categories and, eventually, thousands of genre links in game articles, for absolutely no benefit. Dgpop (talk) 14:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am uncertain of which categories you are referring to. I already did a speedy rename for the affected categories. And these "thousands of links" do not need to be modified, as they will simply be redirected. That is why redirects exist.  ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  (updated) @Zxcvbnm, when I looked at Google Books Ngrams (through 2019), "platform game" or "platform games" were still used many multiples more times than the terms "Platformer" and "platformers" respectively - would be curious to see your source Superb Owl (talk) 19:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change from "Platform game" to "Platformer" 

message: Wow. Way to literally destroy a page that was written so well up to a couple weeks ago...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.67.161.15 (talk) 06:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seriously? 

message: I think this article needs some further clarification and sources cited to clearly define what "True 3D" is, as it contradicts itself.
In the section heading "True 3D", there is no clear definition of what "true 3D" actually is, just a vague description of giving "the player more control over the character and the camera". It goes on to talk about Geograph Seal and then Jumping Flash!, citing the Guinness World Record for "First platform videogame in true 3D" for the latter.
However, earlier in the section heading "Third Dimension", the article states "The earliest example of a true 3D platformer is a French computer game called Alpha Waves". Interestingly, it's here, and not under the "True 3D" heading, where we see a link to another wikipedia article, but it links to "3D computer graphics" and not a definition of what "true 3D" is this context. What's also interesting is that there is another, separate Guinness World Record to the previous one that isn't cited here for "First 3D platform videogame", which credits Alpha Waves (although it is cited on the game's wikipedia page).
How exactly GWR differentiates these two records is unclear.
This is clearly a contradiction, so which is it? Is Alpha Waves a "true 3D" platformer or not? If yes, why isn't it under the "True 3D" heading? If no, why does the article say it is "true 3D"? What does or doesn't make it "true 3D"? What even is the definition of a "true 3D platformer"? 124.169.24.7 (talk) 01:36, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of "True 3D"