Talk:Anti-Americanism/Archive 17

message: Why exactly does the article, which is supposed to be a NPOV look at anti-Americanism, end with a huge laundry list of criticisms of the US? This contradicts the defense I hear from every critic of the US that they are NOT anti-American, but just criticizing the policy. "We don't hate America, we hate Bush"... So then, why introduce a list of "reasons" for something which may be an irrational hatred?? Does that mean that critics of the US are anti-Americans after all??? I get the feeling people have jumped the gun on the debate as to what exactly anti-Americanism is -- prejudice, policy critique, jealousy, clash of civilizations etc. -- and seem to be tacking on all sorts of rationalizations for it. 
So which is it? Is criticism of the US policy anti-Americanism or not? So if you criticize the US, you are anti-American? If not, then why stuff the article with justifications??? And if anti-Americanism is more akin to anti-semtism or racism, then what do bigots care about the number of women in the US senate? Such justifications for truly prejudiced people are only excuses. 
Compare this with the Anti-semitism article. It presents it historically and in various contexts. Maybe this article could be split -- one article called "Criticism of United State" and another one "Anti-Americanism" presented more lik the Anti-semitism or Racism articles. 
Willowx 13:56, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This article with its "sentiment" title has just turned into a magnet for random US criticism and people seem very emotional about their particular edits.  We would never have an article for people to bash any other people at will, whether they were rude and fat, or shy and skinny... Personally, I think the sentiment title should be deleted and the parts relating to the discussion of anti-Americanism as a debatable ideology moved back to Anti-americanism proper. Tfine80 17:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe there should be some kind of description of what this article is NOT? It is not "Criticisms of US policies" nor is it a "Comparison of social systems between US and Europe" nor is it "Personal List of Gripes". This should be a description strictly of "Anti-Americanism", its histories, and analysis of the phenomenon. I think many people surf in and mistake it for a free for all of complaints. (This is common on Wikipedia for the more controversial articles.) Also, please use sources and cite actual critics/references. Too much pretending that ones personal opinion is "widespread criticism".  Willowx 06:19, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nor, if I may add, is it a list of excuses, justifications or counter-accusations. Rama 09:35, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I think the problem with that section is that it recreates the original problem that you first mentioned.  It turns the article into a "US Good" / "US Bad" discussion.  It is a leftover of the mess that existed before.  The point is that we can't treat Anti-Americanism as a coherent ideology that can be debated because it has no single or clear ideological structure.  We can certainly discuss where Anti-Americanism as a form of prejudice could lead, but I think any trace of the "US Good" defense needs to be eliminated. Tfine80 14:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

text: By the way, I also moved the Levy quote further up in the article because I thought it made an important point and was part of the section we could keep. Right now it is quoted twice. Tfine80 14:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article contradicts itself 

message: Surely there ought to be sections on anti-American sentiments in Saudi Arabia and, say, Israel, at least. Mr. Billion 04:51, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why no sections on any Middle Eastern countries?

message: I have re-merged Anti-Americanism with Anti-American sentiment. Anti-Americanism (also Anti Americanism sans hyphen and "Hostility towards America") now re-direct here. The introduction has been expanded to include the critical point of the old Anti-Americanism article: that critics of the term see it as a propaganda tool to stifle criticism. I may actually include a new sub-heading about the propaganda thing as the Anti-American article went into great detail on the point (someone else can do this if they feel not enough of that article is included here). Also expanded on the history of the concept.
Fire away... Marskell 12:35, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: I'd like to say a few words about the section dealing with the "perceived American ignorance".
It's all right. But, what Americans are very often reproached for (here in Italy, for example, or in France and in Germany) is not only ignorance of important notions; it's much more: it's a thorough lack of culture. Culture is much more than notions.
For example, the problem is not only that some Americans do not know where, say, Italy is, or are likely to believe that Robespierre was a contemporary of Julius Caesar. The problem is that even those who know such things very well, and even many intellectuals, have no true sense of history and of its importance, of how it is complex and full of problems; they have no, or very little, sense of intellectual subtlety, no taste for distinctions; they are superficial, simplistic and ingenuous. This, at least, is a common opinion, especially among those who have received the traditionally European humanistic education. (Someone said - was it Albert Einstein? - that culture is what remains when one has forgotten everything; well, that thing is exactly what, in the opinion of a lot of people, Americans, even those who know plenty of notions, do not have; and, what is worse, they usually do not even suspect that such a thing exists, and is very important for individuals and nations.) 
: This is from an anthropological point of view, utterly absurd. All human beings are cultured. All human activity is based on 1) biology and 2) culture, ie. learned behavior passed from generation to generation. Hunter and gatherer societies that have relatively simple lives -- nothing like advanced IT technology nor operas -- are equally cultured. The uncritical view of Culture with a big C is, in my view, simple chauvinism, and typically European chauvinism -- the same chauvinism which led to the destruction of many of the aboriginal cultures they came in contact with. It seems all are uncultured barbarians except Europeans!
Some other common opinions about Americans:
1) Such a lack of culture, and of well digested thoughts, is often considered to be a consequence of the fact that, as the commong saying goes, "they've got no history", they haven't got a tradition.
2) Americans are considered to have a sort of "horror vacui": they must act, and so they tend to be rash and reckless. They're sometimes compared to boys or children, who can't keep still. This is what is implied when they're called "cowboys".
3) Furthermore, they're considered vulgar: this opinion is very common. In the opinion of a lot of people, and even of the man in the street, they don't understand beauty: they are said not to understand the difference between a work of art, or even great historical monuments, and the products of cultural industry (what the Germans call kitsch); they are said to have no taste, and no sense of moderation.
These are only some of the opinions that are common, especially in Europe, about the "perceived American ignorance": I might tell you much more (e. g. about the "puritan mentality", etc.) I don't want to offend anybody: as a matter of fact, these opinions do exist, not only among intellectuals. (And I often agree with them; but this is unimportant here.)
Admittedly, what Americans are reproached for does exist in Europe, too. But many people think that one of the causes of this cultural and intellectual decline of Europe is the servile imitation of America, and the importation of American films, songs, words, fashions, etc. This is called American "cultural imperialism". And the resulting society is called the "mass society", where everything is vulgar, and no cultural aristocracies exist. Some call this the "Americanization of the whole planet".
Sorry for my bad English. But perhaps somebody who writes English better than I do might write something in the "perceived American ignorance" section.
 User:82.49.78.250
Did you have a point?--User:naryathegreat | (talk) 23:52, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
::To say America lacks culture is not only false, but ignorant. America is arguably the country with the most culture in the entire world, though there is truth to the argument that we lack a uniform and strong culture. The fact that America is made of many different ethnic groups that each brought their own culture to their new country is enough evidence to disprove the argument of our lack of culture. That is the strength of America, the fact that we are made of perhaps the entire world combined. We are Italian, German, English, French, Chinese, Mexican, etc. And yet at the same time, we are all American, and will likely be assimilated into a larger culture given time. I know this because of the fact that I myself am Mexican-American. My family has been in the geographical United States for more generations than the majority of Caucasian Americans, since the area of the Southwest was taken over by the United States. The people of this region, my region, have gradually been assimilated. Neither of my parents speaks Spanish, and my maternal grandmother is a German from Frankfurt. America is far from the only country that could be attacked with such arguments. In Europe, there are huge problems with the integration and assimilation of immigrants from the Middle East, are there not? Specifically, with the fact that the new immigrants refuse to take on the culture of their new country and clash with said culture. The murder of Theo van Gogh by a Dutch-born Muslim extremist, the incidences of beatings of homosexuals in the Netherlands by youths of Morroccan extraction, the refusal of Muslim girls to abandon their headscarves in French public schools are all examples of disunity in cultures. The fact that our culture pervades Europe (for I think that is what bothers you, not that it pervades Africa or South America) is hardly our fault and something completely natural. The recent time was ours. It was simply our time to shine and dominate, no different from how Germany dominated the world of music during the Classic and Romantic time periods, or how Italy did before it. Such arguments that America has no history are foolish. The New World was discovered in 1492, and colonization by the great European powers commenced a few centuries afterwards, well before Germany or Italy were united as countries. If the argument that we Americans have no uniform culture, could the same argument not also be used for certain parts of Germany, or perhaps Italy? Because of my German blood and the fact that I speak the language, I know of the differences among each state, Bundesland, and how each region has its own distinct culture and dialect. Bavaria is still "Freistaat Bayern," the Free State of Bavaria, something not suggestive of cultural unity. Does this lessen a Bavarian's identity with Germany? Absolutely not. In fact, the stereotypical German is thought of as a Bavarian. The other stereotypes mentioned are just those, sterotypes. Just as Irishmen are stereotyped as drunks, Frenchwomen as whores, Greek men as homosexuals, Italians as Mafiosos, and Germans as fascists or devoid of taste, Americans are stereotyped in these fashions. By the way--"Kitsch" exists in English as well as in German.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:82.49.78.250"
If I offended you, I'm very sorry. I didn't mean to offend anybody, as I said.
Unfortunately, I haven't got the time to write a long answer now, but I hope I'll be able to explain myself better after.
But, first of all, what I described was not necessarily (not always, not entirely) MY opinion: these are opinions that are fairly common here in Italy, and generally in Europe (and maybe also in other parts of the world, I don't know). And I think that, if one wants to write a short essay on critical opinions about the United States, these should be mentioned, too.
Furthermore, I'm afraid you are missing the point. With some explanations or distinctions, I agree with most, perhaps with all, of the things that you say. But it seems to me that the things that you say hardly ever answer the things that I wrote.
I used the words "lack of culture", but I didn't mean "culture" in the ethnological, or anthropological, sense, as you seem to understand ("the American culture", or "cultures").
I used the word in its common meaning, i. e., in the meaning that we have in mind when we say that somebody is, or is not, a "cultivated (cultured) person": that is NOT only knowing plenty of notions, it's something that can't be easily defined, but certainly includes:
— the awareness that things are usually difficult, complicated, have many different aspects;
— and that, therefore, the task of understanding requires a great effort of intellectual subtlety, and many distinctions;
— a strong dislike, and refusal, of superficial, simplistic, statements, with no, so to say, light and shade effects;
— a genuine interest in history: the awareness that man is a historical being, and that a subtle understanding of the extremely various and complex conditions of his life (not only material, but especially spiritual life; not only of present life, but also of the past) is quite NECESSARY, both to understand and to act (for example, for a politician);
— the idea that, if it's necessary to act, one must think and talk a lot before: that study, reflection, and dialogue are very important; that our will must follow, not precede, our reason;
— a certain taste for art, literature, etc., with the awareness, again, that they can't be understood without an understanding (so to say, an empathetic understanding) of their historical setting;
— ... (Sorry, I'm in a hurry right now. But I have some other points in mind.)
So, "that is the question" (to use a stupid quote). It seems to me that Americans really have great problems with the preceding points.
I hope I've not been too confused. I would really be very glad if you would tell me your opinion. And, again, believe that I only want to talk, not to offend anyone.
And excuse me for my bad English and my mistakes.
(As for "kitsch", it's a German word, though it's also used in English and in other languages.)
User:Tom Hope
reply to that^ : Americans do have culture. Everyone has culture. Here is the definition of culture: "The complete way of life of a people: the shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterize a group; their customs, art, literature, religion, philosophy, etc.; the pattern of learned and shared behavior among the members of a group." Americans and everyone else has attitudes, values, goals, practices, customs, art, literature, religion, philosophy. American sayings say a lot about American philosophy, America obviously has lots of religious people (I don't think I need to explain), the "American Dream" could be a goal for some Americans, Americans do have art, literature, and the other things in that definition.
:It’s sad to see that you (plural) refuse to admit any other meaning of culture than the anthropological one; and this seems to be the communis opinio in America! The anthropological notion of culture isn’t false in itself, but it isn’t the only meaning. There’s a difference (not only quantitative, but also qualitative) between a Coke tin and the David of Michael Angel. Oh, sorry: this is European chauvinism. Of course. Well, I wish you understood that this way of thinking (yours, I mean) has made the world (Europe, too) a desert, and life a nightmare.
User:naryathegreat, do you even hear youself talk?  You use the word "assimilate" as if your in the Borg collective.  This is a fact of american ignorance, they think that everything they get involved with must be done "their way or no way".  I am not saying that you yourself are ignorat, but by the way your talking is "a" reason why people around the world dislike americans.  Our "culture" is baised more on "Must have" rather then the collective good of mankind.  As this article says, we have the highest prison rate in the world, and the resources we use are more harmful to the environment and few in america want to clean up for the good of "progress".
--Admiral Roo 13:33, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
No, people around the world don't dislike Americans. That's just a lie fabricated by the American right-wing media. It true that some people around the world have issues with the American government, and the ignorance and arrogance of some Americans - but I'm sure veru, very few people around the world actually dislike all Americans. I'm sure most people around the world are not so small-minded as to judge people by the country that they from. I mean, people do not choose to be born American after all.
68.117.18.6 15:48, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perceived lack of culture