Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 1

message: Universal brotherhood is not a formality in Sahaj Marg like it is in
many other places. We practice it and we don't need to prove that you.
As i said , if you want a NPOV even these statements about christ
must be put on the website. 
Not for nothing Christ said, "Love thy neighbor as thy self." And my neighbour is not just one who is sitting next to me, but everybody is my neighbour, including trees, animals, birds, insects. If you say, "I love my wife," it may not be a lie. But you cannot love your wife and not love everybody else. This light cannot shine only for you. The sun is universal. Air, light, water-God gave to everybody. Essentials of life are free. Love is an essentiality. We cannot live without love. We cannot have been born without love. And if we die without love, that would be a terrible death, a death in isolation, in misery, in hopelessness
There is something that we are lacking in offering to the local people, the American population, for whose sake the Mission exists here. Of course, it exists to serve the Indians, too, but it is not an Indian Mission. But, it is a Mission which was started in India. Its guru is not an Indian guru, he happens to have been born in India, and therefore he is an Indian. And the system is not an Indian system, though it is based on the ancient yogic systems. These are accidents of birth, nationality and geography. You know like Christ is not only for Jerusalem, and Mohammad, may His name be blessed, is not only for Saudi Arabia or Jeddah or wherever. They are all personalities recognized as universal, whose philosophies, whose teachings are for all mankind, for those who are willing to accept them, as is the case with the Buddha, too, so also with my Master.
I don't have the time to argue with you. 
Ta
Hi Seeker...This is Don
Why don't you relate to what was written in the speech I am quoting from?  To quote Christ does not absolve Chari of the Statements he wrote and spoke in Denmark.  I understand that you are bound to defend the Guru, but get him to speak the truth and not attack other religions and religious teachings if he wants to be "non-sectarian".  
You don't seem to understand the statements he spoke, so I will ask a Catholic Church authority to come a make a statement from their perspective.  Maybe then you can ask forgiveness from them for the un-necessary denigrating of another religion to make your group look good.  If Chari can claim to erase Samskaras, or to get messages from the dead as in your "Whispers from the Brighter World", then he should not deny the claim of the Catholic Church to "forgive sins" or the Messianic mission of the Christ.  The forgiveness of sins is attributed to Christ and to his Church (the priests), according to the Catholics.  You can believe it or not but you cannot deny it and then claim to be "non-sectarian".... Any other quotes of Christ, by Chari does not relate to this issue.  You can quote Mahatma Gandhi, but it does not make you "simple".  You can quote Christ but it does not make you "loving".  Christians try to love their neighbour and also the "enemy" or those who do you wrong, your group tries to love the Guru and the Mission.  I am trying to get you and Chari to love the Catholics and the Catholic Church and stop trying to "steal" their sheep but denying their beliefs.  That might grow your numbers but it will not create "goodwill" in the world nor make a "spiritual" population.
Relate to the quotes and the speech I mention and get your Master to apologize or ask forgiveness to the Catholics for denying their faith in the confession and the Messianic Mission of Christ who they believe is the "Word Made Flesh", much as Chari claims that the Guru (himself?) is the "flesh and blood embodiement of the Divine" (direct quote from your material).  Re-read the speech and try to understand Chari's words and their meaning. It is typical for manipulated individuals to have selective understanding that is not of the "universal" understanding of the rest of the world.  I trust you speak and understand English. 
Your rituals and your belief in your need of a Guru to get to God and have your samskaras erased is just as sectarian as the belief of the Catholics in the "truth" of the confession and the Messianic Mission of Christ and his part in the Trinity (the son of God).  Your duty as a "spiritual" person is to respect that.  Your group claims that anyone of any faith can be an abhyasi and keep their religious beliefs and rituals.  Live up to your words and respect the other religions of the world.
Ask your God for some understanding and some compassion for other religious beliefs!
At least, don't try to "weasel" out of the words of your Master, even though they put your group in a bad (sectarian) light. 
God Bless you 
Don 
Don, 
Here are a few Excerpts from speeches given by Master - 
Not for nothing Christ said, "Love thy neighbor as thy self." And my neighbour is not just one who is sitting next to me, but everybody is my neighbour, including trees, animals, birds, insects. If you say, "I love my wife," it may not be a lie. But you cannot love your wife and not love everybody else. This light cannot shine only for you. The sun is universal. Air, light, water-God gave to everybody. Essentials of life are free. Love is an essentiality. We cannot live without love. We cannot have been born without love. And if we die without love, that would be a terrible death, a death in isolation, in misery, in hopelessness
There is something that we are lacking in offering to the local people, the American population, for whose sake the Mission exists here. Of course, it exists to serve the Indians, too, but it is not an Indian Mission. But, it is a Mission which was started in India. Its guru is not an Indian guru, he happens to have been born in India, and therefore he is an Indian. And the system is not an Indian system, though it is based on the ancient yogic systems. These are accidents of birth, nationality and geography. You know like Christ is not only for Jerusalem, and Mohammad, may His name be blessed, is not only for Saudi Arabia or Jeddah or wherever. They are all personalities recognized as universal, whose philosophies, whose teachings are for all mankind, for those who are willing to accept them, as is the case with the Buddha, too, so also with my Master.
Don,
As i said Christ has also in his time criticized the methods and practices 
followed by the jews of his time. But you follow him . why ? It is because 
you want to believe only what you want to believe. So don't call others blind.
You choose to remain blind for the things you opt to. I am not blaming christ 
here. He was right in doing what he did.
Go and Read the speech properly. 
1. He has mentioned that no one really wept for 
christ's sacrifices.
2. The speech also implies that probably if Christ had lived on , 
he could have brought about lot of changes.
As i have said he has also given lots of other speeches where 
he has given the example of christ, for the love he had for humanity . 
Please give those links here and you would be doing a fair job.
Thanks for your wishes. God's bessings are always there. It is we who either
accept it or deny it. 
Hi Seeker and all...
Maybe if we get someone from the Catholic Church to comment on this, you will know what they think of the confession.  Chari claims to "erase samskaras" (which is about the same thing).  If the priest can't take away sins, then neither can Chari erase Samskaras as he claims.  He is making a judgment on what Christ can do.  I leave that to the Christians to define for themselves.  At least they are honest about what they do.  Everthing in this part of his speech is "sectarianism".  He claims that his "sect" is better than the "Christian" sect.  He judges and denigrates what he does not know!. Maybe if he had studied Philosophy instead of engineering and Business, he would be more intellectually enlightenend.  
Sections from the Speech in Denmark
http://www.srcm.org/literature/recent.speeches/051101_Denmark.jsp
So you are lucky. If you were in religion, you would have to go to church and you know, tell lies in that wonderful place called the confessional. “Lord, forgive me for what I have done this week.” And there’s an equally sinful priest on the other side of the curtain saying, “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I absolve you of your sins.” Something he has no power to do. No man on earth has power to absolve you of your sins except two people: one yourself, and one your God. In between there is nobody who can do it. That is why religion is useless, that is why religion has failed. That’s why you are all here, not in church.
In this next part of his speech, he denies Christ's ability to fulfill his "Messianic" duties, which is central to the Christian faith.  Again he is not qualified to do so and is being "sectarian", attacking other's faith.  He seems to know what Christ has done and why. And his statements are almost "dogmatic".  Chari should say that "Chari is not wise" so as to be called "humble".  Christ's message of love (even love the enemy), is the underpinning of western society and has survived for 2000 years.  To say it has no value today, is not Christ's fault, but because of people who abuse the "love" that Christians are supposed to have and think it "not Wise"....
I am no Christ, you know, to crucify myself on the cross for all of you. Do you think Christ was a wise man, that he became crucified so that forever and ever after humanity is absolved of its sins? I don’t think so. It gave you more license for indulgence. But after all, you have been forgiven two thousand years ago for what you are going to do today, what your children are going to do ten years hence, and so on and so forth. I don’t think he was wise. He left no room, no incentive for human beings to change, become moral, become spiritual. You are all happy, you see, that you had a Christ who got crucified. None of us weep for Christ. We are happy. “God bless him,” we say, which is another blasphemy. You need blessings, not Christ.
If you don't see that, it's because you don't want to or are blind by choice or design (Sahaj Marg has blinded you, and made you more dense).  As Christ would say: Let those who have eyes, see!
PS...I am not a follower of a "PERSON" or a MAN....Spirituality means to have a relationship with "SPIRIT", not a pyramidical Structure such as Sahaj Marg, or a MAN.
May the ONE God, Bless you...And show you respect for other religions, or faiths.
Don....
Don, 
Which specific part of the speech are you referring to . I have read through it and don't find anything wrong with it. You have to take the whole speech into consideration and not just one sentence and say he is judgemental. 
To speak about the truth, I can't speak about anything else external to me than my own self. I have seen changes and what i am writing here is based on that. They are not based on any speeches - ofcourse i have drawn inspiration from the speeches I have heard. But what i am writing is based on my experience. So I don't have to convince you or pretend to you.  
I think you are from Canada and there are a very few people like you who have left after practicing for quite some time. There are lot of other people who are still practicing and 
are Canadians. So people are experiencing and practicing whatever you may think about it. Do you claim that there would be no societal problems in Canada if Sahaj Marg was not practiced. Divorce rates were still high before Sahaj Marg entered the picture. 
That you were born in Canada is an accident. You could have been born anywhere else. So don't say 'my world' as if you own Canada. If that is the case why do you speak about Christ and claim to follow him when you know that he was not born in same part of the world as you.
Thanks for your wishes. You may be doing these with good intentions but you can already see  lot of other people who have an opinion different from yours.
 
Hi Seeker...
We now have your contribution to the truth recorded here.   Now check out the speech by Chari in Jan, 06 in Denmark, and see if Chari is being "non-sectarian" or "uniting" with the Danish Christians. or the Catholic Church (see his statement on "Confession".  See his statements on Christ.  Is he being "judgemental" with Christ?  
http://www.srcm.org/literature/recent.speeches/051101_Denmark.jsp
Is he "putting the Danish Christians down"?  I think so!  I will speak my contribution to the truth.  I am not trying to steal the Danish Christian "sheep"  away from Christianity so as to add numbers to my "gang".  I have no agenda beside the whole truth, including Chari's truth about Christianity which is in that speech  and your truth which is now recorded.  On this site, all parts of the truth constitute THE TRUTH!  
The "Easter/western thing" that you mention, your group started when you left your country and came to our shores,  thinking and actually claiming that you were God's gift to Humanity and then you don't deliver on the product you promised: the "gift".  We were willing to believe you one time, and one time only.  Now we have tasted your "pudding" and have seen the societal problems you cause.  Now you are like the rest of us.  Stop pretending to be "spiritually elevated" and show the "spirituality" that you actually have, and become a good citizen of a changing world which will not blindly accept your "fantasy".
I did not go to your country claiming to be a Master and represent God and wanting you to "kneel" or bow to me.  You came to me in my world!  I will speak!
Thanks for putting your bit in....We hear you!  Let the people decide what they believe! You call yourself a seeker, may you become a finder!
Don 
Don,
To speak and represent the truth, you need to present all facts. Master in many of his speeches has given the example of Jesus christ and the love that he had for humanity. So it would be better if those facts are also presented along with these. Also, if you take the history of Christ he has spoken against the method's of worship adopted by the jews of his time. I am not comparing Master with Christ but i am just pointing out to you that these things have happened in the past. Will you attack Christ for that ? 
If any organization grows then such a structure is inevitable. You can't expect Master to run it the same way it was 30 years back. Using your terminology - The so called castle's and acquisitions are being used only for the purpose of meditation and comforts are kept to the minimum standards acceptable to human beings to just sit and meditate. In India where so called spiritual guru's dominate the political scene , SRCM could have become much bigger and more powerful - Master has kept it way from all politics as other Masters have done. 
Please don't start this eastern / western thing and Please don't ridicule the practice followed by 300,000 people by calling it 'foolish'.
Michael,
Thanks for your clarification. Religious analogies are good sometimes !! I am not looking to defend here and so too is Yogesh. Each one is speaking from his own experience and understanding. Real Masters and saints don't belong to any particular country or religion (This is what Babuji has said )and the same applies to Christianity. One does not have to practice Christianity to know or quote Christ.
I have been with Sahaj marg for close to 20 years now. I have seen a few people who have gone out after being closely associated with the mission. Most of them did very funny things before they left(I don't want to mention names) and they even told before leaving that 'other Master's were never like this'. I am sure Babuji would not have approved of whatever they were doing and neither would you if you knew what they did. My opinion is that what Master has done by making the mission disciplined is justified because because he has to deal with such people. Some have even apoligized to Master later and are still continuing their practice. Some others left because they were not ready to accept someone who was their associate not long back becoming the Master which i think was the real reason why they left.I am not sure about your experience but for me all that Master has done is fair.
Seeker 
Yogesh,
I am a practicing Christian and was a Preceptor in your mission at one time. I practiced Sahaj Marg for over 10 years. I knew Babuji, the founder of Sahaj Marg, and got marginally close to Chari's inner circle for a time. I also spent time with with one of the last living Sufi disciples of Lalaji, Babuji's Guru. So I believe I am qualified to address your comments with at least some knowedge of the Christian, Sahaj Marg and Sufi traditions. 
Christ was crucified by a spiritual hierarcy for speaking the TRUTH and challenging the hierarcy and moving the hearts and minds of the people, thus your analogy is incorrect. Chari is at the pinnicle of the spiritual hirearcy. People like Don and myself are merely speaking the truth as we know it. We are not a spiritual hierarcy in power trying to crucify a renegade Rabbi. We have no intention of judging Chari or taking him "down" so to speak. We don't even wish to convince abhyasis happy with the practice to leave. We are individuals who wish only that the Truth not be concealed by an organization of individuals who will twist the facts and hide the truths to attract new aspirants into their fold. We are the one's likely to be crucified here, not Chari. In fact, I was already crucified by Chari over 15 years ago for challenging, not him, but his organization, the Shri Ram Chandra Mission.
Since we're dealing with facts here, I will state some for you. Chari's exact words in writing to me 15 years ago were: "..you were disobedient in matters of the Mission". What is being documented here in this living history of facts and truths. The organization refered to as the Shri Ram Chandra Mission has become an entity that Chari himself insists disciples must love and obey in addition to or possibly even in lieu of the Master. This is a documented truth, not slander and brings into question the documented founding traditions of Sahaj Marg which state that "God cannot be found in the folds of any sect or religion". This is news worthy and pertinent for future historians who study this path of spirituality. Is this new "Mission" that everyone must love, and obey a new creation by Chari? Was it the intent of Babuji or Lalaji to create an organization that everyone must obey? Do today's abhyasis believe that loving and obeying the Mission brings them closer to God? These are the questions that arise from a historical perspective. Nowhere in the current literature of the SRCM is there any reference to "love and obedience to the Mission" however the Master has stated it in letters and speeches, and disciples have even made comments in various blogs to this effect. It is important that we understand this in the context of a historical, living encyclopedia and determine if this is a new aspect of Sahaj Marg, or an oral tradition that has been kept concealed from the rank and file Abhyasis until the early beginnings or Chari's reign.
Your commentary below, while innacurate and defensive, should remain in the archives as a clear example of the mindset of today's abhyasis who, when they feel their Mission is threatened, circle around their Master looking for religious analogies to defend him. Interesting, and noteworthy. Thank you for your contribution. 
However, personally, I suggest that you please stick to the facts dear brother. If you wish to vent against myself or Don, we both have public blogs for you to do this on. They are even linked to in this very page. 
If you do not have the courage to do so, and choose to hide behind your powerful Mission and Master and throw stones at the truth sayers who put themselves at risk doing so, perhaps you should spend some time thinking a bit more about what your words below actually represent in a living history such as Wikipedia. This is a place for facts and truth. It is a living history. I suggest you spend more time getting to know the facts behind your faith and the faith of others before making such contradictory comments that lack any logic or knowledge of a faith you don't even practice (Christianity). Your words are being recorded for future generations to read. Think about their implications to you, your Mission and your Master.
Regards
Michael 
Hi Yogesh
I have Christ in my heart, and it is funny to hear someone who "pooh pooh"s Christ as "not wise" to quote him.  Will you also quote Mahatma Gandhi to show that you are "simple" and not into "the material".  I also have in my heart, most non-agressive, non-violent, non-materialist instruments of change (buddha etc.).  What you do in the name of "spirituality", is spread "materialism", empirialism and religiosity.  Under the claim of "non-sectarian", you attack other religions (ie Christianity), and try and steal their "sheep", with statements like "catholic priests cannot forgive sins" (but Chari can erase Samskaras), and "Christ was not wise". Under the name of non-dogmatism, you establish dogmas, such as "the living Master myth" (whereby no one can reach God without a living Master-as if we have to "go" somewhere to find the Divine in all of us). And then the absurd dogma: "God is Male and Nature is Female" taught to kids at your school. I would say, you do not know Nature at all, as you claim and I doubt that such statements show you "knowledge" of the Divine.  You no doubt claim to be simple (no castles owners (SRCM) or mutiple dwellings owners (Chari's son?) in your group? eh?) The difference between your arrogance and our western "non-gullibility" is that we admit it and do not espound such ridiculous "dogma" as you or Chari. We do not crucify you, you crucify yourself with the nails of your own "denseness".  You don't seriously believe that we will "believe" that sort of "hogwash" do you?  You might reach the feeble minds.  I will hold you to your own material and your own words.
Chari is the one crucifying (through, arrogance,  ignorance and ignoring), the abhyasis who are tired of his "salesmanship" and his empire building and try to engage in a dialogue with him (or his PR bureaucracy). 
Some abhyasis still foolishly believe in the Sahaj Marg path to the point of trying to save it. 
I just want to get out the truth of what Sahaj Marg and the Shri Ram Chandra Mission under Chari has become: Big Business, and religion, not spirituality.  As I read your statement, I can see that you do not know God either.  A religion without love or with a love that is turned inside rather that loving others, is not a "spirituality" but a club, a cult, a religion and a business.....You can claim all you want to be "raja Yoga" but anyone who knows a little about raja yoga knows that sahaj marg under chari is not that....where does the "Brighter World" and the 'Channelling" of messages (Whispers) from the dead fit into Raja Yoga?  Sahaj Marg is Spiritualism. 
We want Real Change, not just another Religious Scam!.   Sahaj Marg is the Same old, Same old....
May you find your way and become a good person....
Don 
Hi Don,
People who crucified Christ did not crucify him while knowing it to be wrong; rather they crucified him because they thought it was the only right thing to do. Gurus, Masters, Prophets (call them by any name) are agents of change and resistance to change is unavoidable. Infact the resistance is far more vocal & violent while the change comes in silently, often unnoticed, aided only by the efforts of a tiny minority who can recognize the Master for what He is. And wisdom is in refraining from resisting the resistance - and therefore Christ's prayer O! Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing!" So go ahead Don and continue to crucify Chariji & SRCM in your writings - I shall not be drawn into resisting the resistance. I will only raise my hands in prayer to the Lord to forgive you for you know not what you are doing.
202.88.170.204 15:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

message: I just would like to comment on the line at the top:>"erase samskaras" (which is about the same thing). If the priest can't take away sins, then neither can Chari erase Samskaras as he
Please read the official documents of course but what I understand is that these are just brain impressions or tendencies and not necessarily evil but they can become obstacles. A person may be a naturally good salesman but may be forced to become an accountant or programmer, or vice versa or whatever.  If fr example your tendency is to help people, but you find out a certain person is a mass murderer, you would have to control  your tendency (or brain impression). Addiction is a reinforced brain impression. Erasing samskaras or brain impressions would obviously be beneficial. --Jondel 00:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Samskara