Talk:Divine Comedy/Archives/2006

message: I think that says it all. The text is overlapped by one of the illustrations. I've not worked with pictures before, so somebody with more experiance who has a second should take a look. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xeinart (talk • contribs) 01:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture overlaps text 

message: Why was this deleted from the Influence on Visual Arts section? 
I know some may find its inclusion dubious, as it may be perceived by those unfamiliar with alternative comics/ the work of Gary Panter’s as a piece of exoterica but nonetheless this publication stands as a lavish Object D'Art as well as a highly conceptualized academic work and is indeed noteworthy and an article on the book itself would encourage much intellectual discourse… it is, in my opinion, very exciting and clever work, one of prime examples of what avant-garde comics are. Panter’s notes to the book provides fresh insight to Dante as an artist, noting that much like Joyce after him, Dante is a ‘synthesist’ creating a “massive superimposition of underlying structure” with his writing (which is what Panter himself attempts with the graphic medium in ‘Jimbo in Purgatory’ with its use of multilayered visual/literary formats )
I was going to get to writing a wiki of the book, but the stub I started was deleted... 
 
 
--Counterrestrial 14:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gary Panter's Jimbo in Purgatory 

message: What is exactly meant by original copies?  As far as I know there's no original Dante manuscript, not only for the Commedia but also for letters or whatever else. If by original copy is meant Dante's handwriting, then I believe the information is not accurate (to say the least). The manuscript  here in Milan at the Biblioteca Trivulziana is dated 1337. Does anybody have more details? If we could have Dante's manuscript .... think of the time spent in endless discussions about a word, an article a rhyme ... --Marco Bonavoglia 12:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Original copies" as identified in the article is simply a falsehood.  You are right that there is no autograph, so the only meaningful (but misleading sense) would be "earliest copies."  However, it is an obvious absurdity to say that "only two earliest copies exist."  I'm deleting the nonsense, which I hope won't be reposted without discussion & credible citation.  Wareh 13:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original copies?? 

message: To this English speaker, it would be nice if the article summarized existing public domain and copyrighted English translations.  For instance, is it worth paying for John Ciardi's translation, or is there a pre-1922 gem that captures the depths and heights?  (Information on translations would be useful for all works, from Genesis to Homer on up to today.)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.252.222.224 (talk) 08:14, 13 December 2005 -213.219.186.213 16:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd disregard that Lezard review.  He writes,I would not have expected "ahi" as in "Ahi quant'elli era ne l'aspetto fero!" (canto XXI, line 31) to be rendered as "Eek!" Still, Kirkpatrick has written at least three books on Dante already and has probably forgotten more about the poet than I will ever know, so I trust to his judgment.  Err, I thought critics were supposed to be competent to exercise judgment.  Lezard is also confused in believing that Mandelbaum is not available in bilingual editions.  IMHO it's hard to beat Mandelbaum, but some of the other recent vesions (e.g. by the Hollanders and the Durling-Martinez collaboration) are also excellent.  Anyway, Mandelbaum may not be public domain, but it is available for online consultation.  Wareh 17:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes 

message: The Divine Comedy is sometimes called the first SF novel. (So is Kepler's posthumous 1634 book Somnum....) Also, check the translation: it's commonly "Abandon all hope"; I believe correctly it's "Abandon hope, all ye"...  Trekphiler 01:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no Science Fiction literary genre in the 14th century. It was not a novel but a "comedy". Translations of the "Abandon.." are found in the footnotes, no "correct" translation, only favorite ones.  --Stbalbach 04:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "Abandon all hope" is the correct translation of Lasciate ogne speranza. Qwertyus 17:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First SF writer? 

message: Would an outline of Dante's Inferno be helpful? i.e. the circles with punishment, the sin commited, and major people in that circle
*Be Bold!  -  John (Jwy) 22:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outline 

message: Regarding this paragraph:
:Paragraph 39 of Deus Caritas Est, the first encyclical written by Pope Benedict XVI, appears to be inspired by the last canto of "Paradise". The encyclical says "Love is the light—and in the end, the only light—that can always illuminate a world grown dim...", reflecting the text of the canto which ends, "the everlasting Light that is God himself, before that Light which at the same time is the love which moves the sun and the other stars".
This sounds like original research. The metaphor of light, and seeing the world as old and growing dimmer, was a common Christian view throughout the middle ages. In fact it was Petrarch who co-opted this Christian vision of the world and turned it on its head to create what was termed the "dark ages". Unless there is factual evidence for the above quote being influenced by Dante its a very loose association. --Stbalbach 15:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It does look like original research but I have added a reference which says "Benedict XVI says his first encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est," is inspired in part by Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy." ". Actually, re-reading the reference again, the statement could be a lot more positive - Benedict himself says that he was inspired by Dante. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great thanks for the Reference, interesting to read in more detail. --Stbalbach 23:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  light 

message: The seventh circle, middle ring includes a bit of exposition on why the prolifigate belong here, finishing with:
:Hence, doing violence to one's property is kin to suicide.
It sounds reasonable, but if the article is going to assert that "In Dante's time, it was believed...", there should be some citation for that. In fact, those words seem weasly, and it would be better to write "Influential priests/philosophers of Dante's time taught..." and state what they taught and also state exactly who it was that taught this. AdamRetchless 01:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unjustified interpretation of sins 

message: My high school classics teacher always seemed to enjoy commenting on how many popes Dante put in Hell.--Saxophobia 23:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popes 

message: I have a copy of Mark Musa's translation of "The Divine Comedy Volume 1: Inferno" () and it does not say 'Abandon every hope, all ye who enter here.' It says 'all you who enter here. 
I changed it to follow this, this is my first alteration to wikipedia I hope it's ok.
If there are different versions of the translation then please could someone add this fact.
:Thanks. Do you know the date of the translation? That would be helpful too. -- Stbalbach 12:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mark Musa Translation. 

message: I noticed someone deleted the footnote. The primary reason for the footnote is to prevent article churn. Before we had the footnote, the quote in the article changed on a weekly basis (if not more often), as each editor changed it to reflect the translation they happened to be reading. This was mostly a problem with anon editors. So by adding the footnote, it stopped the churn problem. It's one of those "Wikipedia literacy" things, Wikipedia is unique from printed material and needs to be approached in a different way to handle group collaboration. The second reason is, it's just interesting. This is the most famous line from the work and it's interesting to see how many different ways it has been translated, it doesn't hurt to have it. I agree that in a traditional printed article, written by a single editor, the footnote would be silly.  -- Stbalbach 13:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was the one who deleted it.  Your first reason ("churn") is new to me; I don't agree with it (what possible harm is in occasional changes from "ye" to "you"?), but I certainly won't presume to re-delete the note.  Your second reason ("it's interesting"), though, I can't accept as easily.  Very many passages from the Commedia would provide fascinating opportunities for translation comparisons (even if this article is already under some strain from its length), but surely you'd agree that this particular line affords about the least interesting scope for comparison imaginable (since the translations are 95% the same)?  Wareh 17:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the harm is it wastes a lot of peoples time and energy who keep changing it, and it wastes peoples time who keep checking for watchlist changes - rather than have it change all the time with no reason, just document all the permutations one-time and be done with it. It's interesting because the line transcends the book - people who have never even heard of the book have heard of the phrase because its used everywhere, from Bugs Bunny cartoons to Dungeons and Dragons, it is a part of popular culture mythology. Obviously from a literary criticism viewpoint, your right, it is not interesting. -- Stbalbach 01:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S.  Just so you don't think I was being brazen, I do admit I should've read this talk page through first.  Thought I was tidying uncontroversially.  I just could never have believed that this little issue would loom so large for anyone!  Wareh 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abandon all hope footnote 

message: I don't like the newly added image, Page_of_The_Divine_Comedy.jpg.  Does anyone know anything about its date, place, or origin?  An attractive MS page is a good idea, but it should be something as historically appropriate as possible (either one of the oldest MSS, or else something whose significance in the reception of Dante can be stated in the caption).  As long as this image so entirely lacks a context (for all I know, it was made in 1965 in California), I think we're better off with nothing.  Wareh 18:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any manuscript is significiant in that it illustrates the wide-spread acceptance of Dante in the days before the printing press.  It also illustrates the wide range of time over which Dante has been a major writer, in combination with the other illustrations.  Goldfritha 22:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These aspects would be better served if we had any idea of the date of this MS.  As it is, we don't know about the range it indicates, or even whether it's from before or after the printing press.  Wareh 00:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newly Added "Manuscript" Image 

message: I found a gold mine of images in one of the Article's links. Does anyone think we should include all of these Dore images next to the text? I do. Opinions? I mean - just take a look at these fantastic images. http://www.doreillustrations.com/divinecomedy/HELL/images/divinecomedy-hell.html DocEss 17:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We've got some of them.  We've got more in the link to commons.  And, in fact, I think this article has if anything too many Dore images.  It gives a false impression of his influence to have it so narrowly illustrated.  (Which is why I've added other artists' -- it was worse before.) Goldfritha 23:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed too many Dore images - they should be uploaded and linked at Wikicommons (if not already). -- Stbalbach 13:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah I see. Well that's sensible I suppose. But I would like to see an image for each circle; that might help illustrate dante's voyage.DocEss 20:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Okay, maybe the term "edit war" is jumping the gun.  But I observe this page, and now I've seen it go back and forth multiple times on whether the presentation of Muhammad in the Commedia belongs in the "Divine Comedy and Islamic Philosophy" section of the article.  Let's try to generate some consensus and record here.  I think it ought to be easy to adopt a solution that satisfies everyone, and I think this solution probably has three elments:
* Recognize that the "Divine Comedy and Islamic Philosophy" section is about the scholarly inquiry into whether Dante's many sources included originally Arabic-language texts known to him in Latin or vernacular versions.  Once we agree on this, we have a clear criterion for relevance.
* Recognize that a mere, unadorned description of Muhammad's appearance in Inferno is perfectly appropriate to the article's Inferno summary, but irrelevant to this other section per se.  I hope that this recognition will defuse any feelings that may exist out there that an interesting scene in Inferno is being suppressed from the article in any way!
* Consider the conditions under which the Muhammad scene could be made relevant to the "Islamic Philosophy" section.  This is really quite simple if anyone wants to do it.  All you have to do is go to one of the numerous scholarly treatments of Dante's possible Arabic sources, find where the scholar weighs the Muhammad scene for any interesting perspective on Dante's readerly encounter with learned Arabic civilization, and voilà, you have a reliable source for a statement of a possible (non-original research) way in which the two topics can be interestingly connected.
In a nutshell, I think the final paragraph (and accompanying image) should be deleted from this section, but I also think that anyone who regrets this in the slightest can have their cake and eat it too: introduce your passage, in a way that is relevant to and will improve the section.  Wareh 17:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, I agree with you %100. See below "Sower of discord" (no pun intended). -- Stbalbach 14:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muhammad Edit-War 

message: I have read, specifically in the notes on The Divine Comedy by Ronald L. Martinez and Robert M. Durling, based on the latter's translation, that Ptolomea was more likely named after Ptolemy of Egypt who permitted the killing of Pompey in his house, with Ptolemy from the book of Maccabeas as a second possible option. The book is from 1996, so I don't know if it's a situation of changing scholarly consensus, but I thought I'd at least add the possibility of Ptolemy of Egypt, unless someone objects (perhaps a decision had already been come to here?)
Matveiko 20:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ptolomea 

message: Why did the warning get added to the Links section? Explain, please.DocEss 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The user's page says, "I add  warnings when there are more than 5 non official links as well."  So it's on principle.  Obviously, a subject of this importance, on which there is such high-quality online content available that could never go into Wikipedia, needs more than five links.  However, let's WP:Assume good faith and take this as an invitation to streamline.  For example, we can keep the Italian Dante Society in the "see also" list, and merge the links to that; we can prune dead links and low-quality links; etc.  But I am certainly firm that there is a need for numerous links—in fact I'm sure we are missing links to some of the most important and useful content (I had to add Dartmouth Dante Project just in the last month!).  Wareh 17:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links warning 

message: Dropped:
:Dante shares in the sin by being a "glutton for information," by attempting to extract information about the future from Ciacco for political gain. 
This is an idiosyncratic interpretation, to say the least. This line of thinking doesn't match with Dante's scheme for the vision of hell. At the time that he had the Inferno in finished form, Dante was certainly aware that his hope of political usefulness was long gone. Although it could be argued that at other points he does "share the sin" of the souls (i.e. with Filippo Argenti in Circle V, and Fra Alberigo in Circle IX), it's a stretch to say his desire for knowledge is "gluttony". Ellsworth 16:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gluttony?