Talk:The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail/Archive 1

message: I removed Ken Mondschein's review and debunking of the book from the external links and references section because the NY Press link was a dead end.
:Only because of a superfluous trailing slash. I put it back. —No-One Jones 16:12, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Ken Mondschein

message: Can I add the arguments John Locke used in the first of the Two Treatises of Government about not knowing Adam's heir to my previous comments: there is equally no way of determining Jesus' heir.
Did any of the dark age local royal families claim descent from Jesus - rather than local chief gods? Jackiespeel 18:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Arguments against the thesis

message: Under the dewey decimal system (at my local library) this book is 232.9 in the non-fiction section.  Unless I am mistaken, this book would be considered a work of non-fiction, whether or not the information is true.
Talamor 23:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiction? 

message: A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real. To trick people, the creators have to believe that their claims are false. I don't believe this is the case here. I can see good arguments for this being pseudohistory, but not for it being a hoax. Does anyone mind if I remove the hoax reference? KalevTait 00:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After looking into it a bit more I've discoverd that it's claim of hoax is based on it being created by Pierre Plantard. Instead of removing the word hoax, I'll edit to make it clearer who was the originator of the hoax. KalevTait 00:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoax? 

message: Apparently this book has been accused of saying that Jesus physically survived the Crucifixion. It's been many many years since I read it last, and I don't have a copy. Does anyone know if this is an accurate assesment of HBHG? - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.180.215.175 (talk • contribs) 09:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The authors conclude from their research in the book that the crucifixion was staged by Jesus and his apostles, after which Jesus and Mary Magdalene fled and started the Merovingian line (the Holy Blood/Grail).  -RaCha'ar 16:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Crucifixion Survival?

message: A section or even paragraph describing how the authors have responded to such criticism would be appropriate. --24.118.206.25 00:17, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You might try asking 82.19.171.99, who edited it in today.  Please keep in mind that this is a really controversial topic which is subject to a lot of POV warring, especially since there seem to be a lot of people who consider themselves scholars in the field.  Loremaster has been doing an excellent job of keeping most POV editing under control, but if you see something like this you are welcome to edit it yourself to more accurately reflect an NPOV truth. I would encourage you to do so. -RaCha'ar 02:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've edited it to make it a bit more neutral - stressing that the conclusions of the Robinson documentary were the opinions of the presenter and researchers.  The following part about how the criticism of the churches was motivated by the book exposing its 'centuries of oppression' was also hardly neutral as well, so I've edited that with something more reasonable. Thiudareiks 05:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with most of your changes, and added a few more of my own.  Do other editors concur?  If not, feel free to continue tweaking. :) --Elonka 16:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks good to me.  I was going to add something about Baigent's recent backpedalling, but I wanted to re-watch 'The Real Da Vinci Code' first.  I think the current 'Criticism' section states things clearly and neutrally. Thiudareiks 00:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism section?

message: On Feb 6, 2005, Paul Smith edited the Holy Blood, Holy Grail article to write the following:
:"The "conclusions" of Baigent Lincoln and Leigh can hardly be described as "controversial" by the academics - only their nutty supporters can claim such a thing! And did it really take "years" of research to write that book?
:Wikipedia WILL become the focus of attention on the website with its nutty descriptions of pseudo-historical twaddle and some people here will get their come-uppance!
:What a disgraceful promotion of a nutty book that was never history in the first place - only a product of the imagination.
:"Loremaster" - the person who controls this webpage is a true fruitcake who should stand on the same side as the Henry Lincolns of this world. He is a maniac."
1. No contributor to the Holy Blood, Holy Grail article has ever suggested that academics find Baigent, Lincoln & Leigh's conclusions to be controversials. However, if a book is banned in many countries because of the conclusions it contains, it's obvious that they have created a controversy.
2. Regardless of whether one judges these authors' research methodology as being unacademic (which I do), it doesn't change the fact that it took them many years to finish their work.
3. I don't think anyone cares whether Wikipedia is unfairly attacked by an overzealous fringe debunker on his website. 
4. Wikipedia is not being used by anyone to promote HBHG. The article has always been and continues to be quite clear about the pseudo-historicity of the book and it's claims. The reason why HBHG has and deserves an article is because it has and continues to have a significant influence on popular culture.
5. Although I watch this article carefully to make sure it doesn't degenerate from a neutral entry in an encyclopedia to an hysterical tabloid editorial, I do not control it. Everyone, including Paul Smith, is free to edit and expand it to make it better. 
6. Although I've always been fascinated by the HBHG and the Priory of Sion for reasons best explained by Alex Burns, I've always and continue to be extremely skeptical. Although my contributions may not have conveyed this to Paul Smith's satisfaction, I don't see how this makes me a fruitcake or a maniac. Seriously. Are all these insults necessary? 
Loremaster 22:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "The article on this webpage is a sheer act of vandalism - it gives a technical definition on a book of POOR fantasy and which is less colourful than anything written by, say, Sven Hassel. The Authors of this "book" were informed well before they finished writing it by French researcher Jean-Luc Chaumeil that the story was all a load of dogshit."
One has to be blind not to see that the article clearly explains that HBHG is a book of pseudohistory. An article in any respectable encyclopedia must be a neutral technical definition devoid of vitriol. However, if Paul Smith wants to create a Criticism section in the article itself, he is more than welcomed. Loremaster 20:55, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About Paul Smith the Debunker

message: The web-pages accompanying the Channel 4 documentary The Real Da Vinci Code cites this article here. —Phil | Talk 09:17, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
:Perhaps we should include a mention of these pages in the External links section of the article. --Loremaster 18:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --Loremaster 18:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation by Channel 4 documentary

message: My copy of this book (Corgi 1982, reprinted 1983) is entitled "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail".  Has any edition appeared with the title "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" which is used in the main article ? NH.
According to amazon.com the book's name is "Holy Blood, Holy grail" and the last print said to be a Reissue edition (January 15, 1983) bears that name  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SirIbus (talk • contribs) .
:Research on various Amazons and other booksellers/catalogues indicates that "HB, HG" is what the title was changed to in the USA for the '83 release there. The original UK edition (London: 1982) came out as "The... and the..." See also [ here]. I think that justifies the page move I just did. Bolivian Unicyclist 22:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: This article needs to make proper use of end notes (references). Fuzzform 00:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree. --Loremaster 18:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: AKA  AKA  AKA  AKA  (whom I reasonably suspect to be Paul Smith, has repeatedly edited the content of the Priory of Sion and The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail to suit his clearly biased point of view while refusing numerous invitations to discuss a compromise on the talk page of these articles. I am therefore requesting a page semiprotection. --Loremaster 03:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In light of the fact that this user is engaging in unWikipedian behavior but hasn't *recently* crossed the line into vandalism yet, I won't push this issue into arbitration. However, I invite him to discuss this dispute here in a civil manner to avoid this needless edit war. --Loremaster 15:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Update:  has been temporarily blocked by an administrator. --Loremaster 19:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've brought this issue to the attention of Wikipedia administrators on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --Loremaster 15:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism?

message: In Influence and similarities section, we need to explain the influence and/or similarities between The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception and the The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. --Loremaster 23:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Sea Scrolls Deception  

message: I've trimmed the following text from the article:  anyone have any other references or any reason why this would add to the specific topic (the book)?
One of the more outlandish yet interesting internet conspiracy theories that has spawned as a result of renewed interest in the Magdalene-Christ debate, seemingly ties in both The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail and The Da Vinci Code while actually going a step further to put forth that the entire “Bloodline of Christ” theory is a well-orchestrated and intentional hoax directed at the world, whilst having a single sinister goal to bring Bloodline believers into acceptance that one of these living “Bloodline descendants” will rise up to become a future “Messianic figure” (not Christ, but the literal Antichrist), and that this Bloodline heresy is the very deception Secret Societies are using to promote this future Merovingian King onto the world stage.
This just seems like a WP:OR more than content specific to the book. Would prefer commentary before this is re-introduced. Kuru talk 18:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it seems like Original Research.  The only reference is a personal website at angelfire.com.  Unless some other credible sources can be produced, it should stay out of the article. --Elonka 21:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Odd Additon

message: I know this is more of a historical/speculative question - but, assuming that Jesus had a family and it was felt by his wife/siblings/offspring that it was not safe for them to reside in the given locality or indeed the Roman Empire - why not move outside the Empire?
And - what is the point of protecting the bloodline: unless there is a good reason to do so, the safest action is to let the children disappear into the general population. 212.85.0.1 17:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Travels of Jesus and heirs

message: Hi..I would like The Messainic Legacy, which is a sequel and a book in its own right to be entered as a different article rather than being huddled together along with Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. Please let me know how that can be done.Thanks.Sriram sh 05:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not a separate article? 

message: The article claims that the central theme running through 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' is - in the words of the authors - a "Hypothesis". Let's get real: this is a play on words made by unscrupulous authors - Henry Lincoln keeps repeating time after time that he is waiting for "the tiniest bit of evidence to disprove the hypothesis, what we have found, tends to confirm". What does this sound like? It's not the Historical Method, that's for sure. To build a historical hypothesis, you must first begin with the facts. 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' does the exact opposite - it first builds the theory and THEN tries to shoehorn it into the historical facts. This is vintage pseudo-history. It is not objective historical research. Wfgh66 17:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hypothesis"? 

message: I'm a drive-by reader and I wanted to stop here to congratulate the various editors who've worked on this article for the good job you're doing on it. I find it reasonably well-balanced and quite well written. I did have a question about the Criticism section, though, and it goes specifically to the statement that "one of the book's hypotheses — that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married — was not original to Holy Blood". I'm wondering in what way this is criticism. Very little m of what people write is, after all, truly original, especially in purported works of non-fiction. People build ideas from other people with ideas; that's how an endeavour proceeds. Now, if the authors of Holy Blood actually claimed that that idea was original and it was not, well, then, that would certainly be a valid criticism. Did they in fact claim originality for that idea? — Dave (Talk | contribs) 03:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the bookWfgh66 13:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're joking, right? Surely that can't be your answer. The article should be self-sufficient in that it should be internally coherent and logically consistent. I shouldn't have to go read the book to make sense of the article. — Dave (Talk | contribs) 16:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right - then the article should include the fact that the Jesus Bloodline theory contained in the book was considered from taking the bogus Merovingian Genealogies in the Dossiers Secrets seriously (composed on Pierre Plantard's stencil-kit during the 1960s), as well as taking Plantard's claim to be descended from Dagobert II seriously (Plantard was in fact descended from a 16th century peasant who picked walnuts), with Baigent, Lincoln and Leigh's "deduction" of the  Merovingian Myth that Merovee the "father" of the Merovingians being part-fish (he probably never existed, according to some historians), and that Jesus Christ was known as "the fish" (Greek Ι Χ ΘΥ Σ being an acronym for "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Saviour") - adding all these author's considerations together, this produced the Jesus Bloodline theory found in "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail". This is the breakdown behind the central theory contained in the book. BTW, Plantard's inspiration for considering himself to be the direct descendant of Dagobert II lay in an article found in a French History magazine published in 1960 - Les Cahiers de l'Histoire Nr 1, that mistakenly described Dagobert II as the last effective Merovingian monarch.Wfgh66 08:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of which does not answer the question I asked. You're merely clarifying and amplifying the fact that the concept of a married Jesus is not original to Holy Blood. I did not ask if the concept was original, I asked if  the authors claimed that it was? Your next entry in the section here below tries to debunk the concept. Again that does nothing to answer the question I asked. The concept probably is bunk; that wouldn't surprise me in the least. The entire book may well be pseudo-historical sensationalist nonsense. Whether or not the concept is bunk does not respond to the question of the claimed originality of the concept. The criticism says that, and I repeat "one of the book's hypotheses — that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married — was not original to Holy Blood". That criticises the lack of originality of the concept and not the concept itself. The only way you can criticise the lack of originality is if there is a claim of originality to begin with. The entire book could be non-original pap and criticing the book for being non-original pap would be fair enough. But that's not the criticism that the quoted statement attempts to level. It criticises the originality of "one of the hypotheses". Again, if there's no attempt, covert or overt, to claim originality for that hypothesis, then the authors can not be criticised for the lack of originality of the concept. See what I mean? If there is an attempt to claim originality for the concept, then the statement I quoted from the "Criticism" section needs to be altered to make it clear that such a claim has been made. As it stands now, though, it's not clear to the reader on what basis the originality of the concept is being criticised. You seem to have read the book. I have not. Hence, it should be easy for you to tell me whether or not the authors claim originality for the concept of a married Jesus. If the answer is yes, the statement needs to be edited to say that. If the answer is no, the statement needs to be removed. Got it? — Dave (Talk | contribs) 16:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

text:  The authors knew about the 1970 book by W. E. Phipps "Was Jesus Married? The Distortion of Sexuality in the Christian Tradition". Phipps argued that the silence of the New Testament about the marital status of Jesus indicates that Jesus was in fact married because virtually every Jewish man in Jesus' day did marry, especially those who were considered to be Rabbis.Wfgh66 18:29, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I've re-written that paragraph to address the question I've asked here. In that re-write, I stated that the book's authors never claimed originality for the concept of a married Jesus. I'd appreciate it if someone who has read the book could verify that fact and, if in error, could alter the text appropriately. — Dave (Talk | contribs) 01:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What's up, don't you trust me? Do you want me to send you a photocopy from the book whose working title was "Jesus Had Kids"? And BTW, there is a substantial difference between the hypothesis that Jesus Christ COULD have been married (in the book by Phipps) and the outright possibility that Jesus Christ was married, began a bloodline that not only survived the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in AD70, but also migrated to the South of France, actually started the Merovingian dynasty, then became the "secret" there of the Cathars and the Templars, and that living descendants of Jesus Christ are amongst us todayWfgh66 17:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It has nothing whatever to do with trusting or not trusting you. It's simply that you never bothered to answer my question. I asked repeatedly if the authors of Holy Blood had claimed originality for the concept of a married Jesus. I rephrased it several times and asked it again and again. You never once answered it directly, at least not in a way that was understood by me. The last time I asked it, your response was that they knew about some other book. Whether or not they knew about some other book does not respond to the question of whether they claimed originality for the concept of a married Jesus. I know about Hamlet but that doesn't mean that I've claimed to have invented the story of an angst-ridden Danish prince. In any case, I see the changes you made to that paragraph and, thanks, it's much cleaner and nicer now. Cheers! — Dave (Talk | contribs) 18:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question re: Criticism section

message: The claim that Jesus Christ was married is nothing new - the Mormons believe that Jesus Christ was married - this belief originating most probably from the Mormons' early habit of having multiple wives (there is no evidence that Joseph Smith claimed it, but evidence that later leaders of the Mormon Church claimed such a thing exists). On 28 March 1971 an article "Was Jesus Married?" appeard in the UK newspaper 'The Observer' by Charles Davis, one of Britain's leading Roman Catholic theologians before leaving the priesthood and the Church in 1966 - because he wanted to get married and the Roman Catholic Church forbids priests to marry. So the idea that Jesus Christ was married does not spring from historical research but rather from elements relating to cohabitation between male and female.Wfgh66 08:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Originality of Jesus being married 

message: I removed the reference to Charles Davis from the Wikipedia article because he fell into the same mistake as the authors of The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail in relation to the Gospel of Philip. True, the Gospel of Philip describes how Jesus Christ often kissed Mary Magdalene - but it is also true that the same Gospel describes Mary Magdalene as the personification of Fallen Wisdom that was barren in nature - in the opening sentence to the paragraph concerned that described the kissing.Wfgh66 18:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charles Davis and the Gospel of Philip removed from article 

message: Did Evola mention Stein in his book on the Grail, or was this another one of Richardson's fabrications, foisting Stein over Evola in the same way that he foisted Evola over Plantard. Citing unreliable authorities like Richardson is not a good thing. Wfgh66 (talk) 05:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Robert Richardson

message: In both the Priory of Sion and The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail articles, I wrote that the modern goals of the Priory of Sion are:
* the return to Israel of the lost treasure of the Temple in Jerusalem, which supposedly contains records that could be used to trace the Merovingian dynasty back to both the Davidic and Zadokite lines of the Tribe of Judah;
* the establishment of the "United States of Europe" as a "Holy European Empire", renewed through the restoration of chivalry, and unified through an imperial cult centered on a Merovingian sacred king, occupying the throne of Europe and possibly the Holy See,
* the establishment of an interlocking network of Merovingian popular monarchies across Imperial Europe; and
* its transformation from a secret society into the parliament of Imperial Europe.
I based these goals on the following quotes from the book The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail as well as other speculation contained in the last chapter of the book entitled Conclusion and Portents for the Future:
[Pierre Plantard] declared, for example, that the Prieuré de Sion did in fact hold lost treasure of the Temple of Jerusalem - the booty plundered by Titus's Roman legions in A.D. 70. These items he stated, would be 'returned to Israel when the time is right'. But whatever the historical, archeological or even political significance of this treasure. M. Plantard dismissed it as incidental. The true treasure, he insisted, was 'spiritual'. And he implied that this 'spiritual treausure' consisted, at least in part, of a secret. In some unspecified way the secret in question would facilitate a major social change.
In A.D. 70, during the great revolt in Judaea, Roamn legions under the Titus sacked the Temple of Jerusalem. The pillaged treasure of the Temple is said to have found its way eventually to the Pyrenees; and M. Plantard, in his conversation with us, stated that this treasure was in the hands of the Prieuré de Sion today. But the Temple of Jerusalem may have contained more than the treasure plundered by Titus's centurions. In ancient Judaism religion and politics were inseperable. The Messiah to be a priest-king, whose authority encompassed spiritual and secular domains alike. It is thus likely, indeed, probable that the Temple housed official records pertaining to Israel's royal line - the equivalents of birth certificates, marriage licenses and other relevant concerning any modern royal or aristocratic family.
Needless to say, our understanding of those objectives can only be speculative. But they would seem to include a theocratic United States of Europe - a trans- or pan-European confederation assembled into a modern empire and ruled by a dynasty descended from Jesus. This dynasty would not only occupy a throne of political or secular power, but quite conceivably the throne of Saint Peter as well. Under that supreme authority there might then be an interlocking network of kingdoms or principalities, connected by dynastic alliances and intermarriage -- a kind of twentieth century feudal system, but without the abuses usually associated with that term. And the actual process of governing would presumably reside with the Prieuré de Sion -- which might take the form of, say, a European Parliament endowed with executive and/or legislative privileges... 
A Europe of this sort would constitute a new and unified political force in international affairs - an entity whose status would ultimately be comparable to that of the Soviet Union, or the United States. Indeed it might well emerge stronger than either, because it would rest on deep-rooted spiritual and emotional foundations, rather than on abstract, theoretical or ideological ones. It would appeal not only to man's head, but to his heart as well. It would draw its strenght from tapping the collective psyche of Western Europe, awakening the fundamental religious impulse.
In a very real sense the time is right for the Prieuré to show its hand. The political systems and ideologies that in the early years of our century seemed to promise so much have virtually all displayed a degree of bankruptcy. Communism, socialism, fascism, capitalism, Western-style democracy have all, in one way or another, betrayed their promise, jaundiced their adherents, and failed to fulfill the dreams they engendered... There is a longing for a renewed sense of the sacred that amounts, in effect, to a full-scale religious revival -- exemplified by the proliferation of sects and cults, for example, and the swelling tide of fundamentalism in the United States. There is also a desire for a true 'leader' -- not a Führer, but a species of wise and benign spiritual figure, a 'priest-king' in whom mankind can safely repose its trust... There are many devout Christians who do not hesitate to interpret the Apocalypse as nuclear piano. How might the advent of Jesus' lineal descendant be interpreted? To a receptive audience, it might be a kind of Second Coming.
Does anyone disagree with my interpretation? --Loremaster (talk) 12:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern goals of the Priory of Sion

message: What about the hypothesis that Jesus never died on the cross but it was all a hoax, and the hypothesis that Barabbas was his son and heir? I think theese are the most shocking, whether true or false, among the hypotheses in the book.
:Whether or not the hypothesis that Jesus may not have died on the cross (and that Barabbas may have been Jesus' son and heir) is "shocking", the authors never argued that the Jesus bloodline theory (which is central to thesis of the book) rests or falls on whether or not this hypotheses is true. Furthermore, the authors were simply repeating Hugh J. Schonfield's hypothesis, which he first articulated in his "shocking" 1965 book The Passover Plot. --Loremaster (talk) 02:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  About content 

message: I strongly disagree that the assertions made by LB&L are *currently* misinterpreted in the Priory of Sion and The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail articles. I have restored most of the original content and will provide the text which it is based on in this section as soon as possible. 
So, in order to avoid an edit war, please discuss here minor or major edits to the Content section especially if they obscure rather than clarify the subject... --Loremaster (talk) 22:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it should be added to the article that HBHG is a damp squib not offering anything at all to the knowledge of the Priory of Sion, and that various re-edited versions of the book failed to rectify any of the obvious historical errors made in the book (eg, the claim that Bertrand de Blanchefort belonged to the same Blancheforts at RLC; that Plantard had a past in the Resistance; that Sauniere was "treated with kid gloves" by the church; etc, etc, etc). The book is still on sale in its original and now defunct 1982 format, people are still being introduced to this subject matter through HBHG without realising how much of its content is completely bogus. Wfgh66 (talk) 22:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Various books in various different languages have highlighted the faults of HBHG, so it would not be OR. Wfgh66 (talk) 22:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am aware of all that. However, that doesn't change the fact that the Wikipedia article on the Priory of Sion must document what the first version of HBHG claimed about the PoS so that readers know what people being introduced to this subject matter through this book are being introduced to. You do understand this? --Loremaster (talk) 23:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edits to the Content section 

message: From p. 296 of The Messianic Legacy paperback:At our meeting in April, 1982, M. Plantard adopted an ambivalent attitude towards our book. On the whole, he endorsed it and offered to correct, for the French edition, certain  vague or unclear references. at the same time, he would neither confirm nor deny our thesis that the Merovingian bloodline was descended from Jesus. There was no evidence either way, he said non-committally. It was 'all too far in the past', all 'too long ago'. There was no reliable genealogies. Besides Jesus had brothers. Nevertheless, he acknowledged the Merovingians to have been of Judaic descent, deriving from the royal line of David.I made a few minor edits accordingly (I simply moved it into the paragraph above and added the words "initially" and "only") but we may want to rewrite the paragraph in the Criticism section that deals with this subject matter. --Loremaster (talk) 14:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's a reference to a private conversation. Did Plantard ever read The Messianic Legacy? Boy, this should please you, because you have always wanted to believe in a Plantard reference to the Line of David. Wfgh66 (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I assume he did, how can I know whether or not Plantard read The Messianic Legacy? I never wanted to believe anything (since I have gone from being a soft skeptic when I read HGHG in 1998 to a strong skeptic after reading your debunking website and other exposés). I was was simply convinced that Plantard had acknowledged that the Merovingians were derived from the Davidic line. I simply didn't remember where I read that until now. Regardless, the point is that Plantard (temporarily) embraced a claim despite the contradiction. --Loremaster (talk) 16:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Baigent, Lincoln and Leigh. We possess nothing directly from Plantard, who would have been unable to square the Tribe of Benjamin with the Line of David (if what the authors alleged he said in the interview was true). Wfgh66 (talk) 18:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not arguing the contrary. However, since we dealing with a liar and pseudohistorians, we go with what we got... --Loremaster (talk) 18:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

text: For the sake of clarity, I am not suggesting that the paragraph in the Criticism section should be deleted. It should simply be more nuanced. --Loremaster (talk) 02:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's then add then the (likely) possibility that the claim is a likely accretion since nothing of the sort comes directly from Plantard. Wfgh66 (talk) 03:23, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me. --Loremaster (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plantard on the Merovingians and the Davidic line 

message: There should not be any quotes around the word fact in the text. I also don't believe it should be linked to factoid. The usage here is to imply that the authors were not sincere in their approach. Since they disclaimed their knowledge of the truth of what they took as fact for the purpose of their hypotheses, and this is duly noted in the article, the use of these two devices can only be intended to emphasize a particular POV over another. Such devices do not belong in an encyclopedia article and are specifically discouraged by Wikipedia guidelines. Wednesday Next (talk) 18:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, despite disclaiming their knowledge of the truth of what they took as fact for the purpose of their hypotheses, they often made statements that were not sincere. Many critics have pointed this out. I have rephrased the sentence for the sake of accuracy and to resolve this dispute once and for all. --Loremaster (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In such a case it seems we should cite the authors and also cite the critics. After all, critics may be wrong. Wednesday Next (talk) 20:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You wish. Wfgh66 (talk) 20:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

text: The sentence in question has always cited a source. As for your claim that critics of HBHG may be wrong, you must be joking?!? --Loremaster (talk) 20:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone may be wrong when making assumptions about anothers motivations. I am not intending to imply that the critic are wrong about the facts, only that they would have no way of judging sincerity. Wednesday Next (talk) 20:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Critics seldom "make assumptions". Wfgh66 (talk) 20:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, then cite the individual critic and what they have said to support allegations of insincere motivation. Wednesday Next (talk) 20:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Citing sources and quoting from those cited sources are two different things and the latter isn't necessary. That being said, here is one quote from the cited source in the article: In 1982, Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln published The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, which introduced English-speaking readers to the connection between the Magdalene, the Merovingians and the Priory of Sion. They themselves partly based their work on a book called Le Tresor Maudit de Rennes-le-Chateau (1967) by Gérard de Sède, a self-confessed hoaxer and forger of historic documents. Holy Blood, Holy Grail, as it was called in America, became an instant bestseller. In reality, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail was pure pseudohistory. Laura Miller, writing for Salon in 2004, described its technique: "A preposterous idea will first be floated as a guess, then later presented as a tentative hypothesis, then still later treated as a fact … The miasma of bogus authenticity becomes impenetrable; you might as well use a rifle to fight off a thick fog." --Loremaster (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great. I believe that it is better to present the authors at face value followed by analysis, rather than to blur them together in a way that does justice to neither. Wednesday Next (talk) 20:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree in this particular case only. --Loremaster (talk) 20:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

text: *sigh* A myth or misinformation presented as fact is the definition of a factoid! We do not a source to actually use the word "factoid" to use it or internally link a word to the Factoid article. Also, have you ever heard of a "paraphrase"? --Loremaster (talk) 16:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, for one thing, the term is ambiguous, as noted in the article: "As a result of confusion over the meaning of factoid, some English-language style and usage guides recommend against its use." I really don't see what is gained by making this link. Wednesday Next (talk) 16:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why you are making a dispute about something so trivial... --Loremaster (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh forget it. I simply dislike piped links intended to define one term with another. But I dislike it less in its current form than I did when we started, so I'll drop it... Wednesday Next (talk) 17:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scare quotes 

message: The Jesus Presidents 
 (2004) discusses in detail the proofs in regard to Jesus and Mary Magdelene having children and gives descents to today from their purported lines including to US Presidents and to perhaps you.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.73.11 (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'll add it very soon. --Loremaster (talk) 15:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Done. --Loremaster (talk) 00:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

text: User:Wednesday Next removed the addition of the book The Jesus Presidents from the article stating: "remove promotional insertions for self-published iUniverse book." --Loremaster (talk) 19:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Addition to "Influence and Similarities"

message: In what sense is HBHG a work of 'non-fiction'? The author present a collection of surmises, but offer no proofs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.117.57 (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I understand what you are trying to get at, there is a difference between a work of hypothesis and a work of fiction. The difference may be thin but it still exists. --Loremaster (talk) 19:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-Fiction?

message: His children would have been infants when he died: his disciples would have been more of a threat to the status quo.
Given that the gospels were written several decades after the events described 'information about family' might well have been considered non-relevant (how many children did Harry Truman or Anthony Eden have?).
There is a 'marginally better argment' for a British connection - Joseph of Arimathea, King Arthur and the quest for the Holy Grail etc than the French connection.
I think the most positive that can be said is the book has promoted research into some obscure areas. Jackiespeel (talk) 15:38, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Jack, this talk page is only for discussing improvements to the The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail article so it shouldn't be used to simply express our opinions about the merits of a Jesus bloodline hypothesis. --Loremaster (talk) 18:04, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The heirs of Jesus

message: In light of the international interest in The Da Vinci Code and The Holy Blood & Holy Grail, I think we should radically improve the The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail article in order for it to be featured on the Main Page of Wikipedia.
Before we push the article to Peer review - a step that should always be taken before the Featured Articles Candidates step - , we need to improve the Content and Criticism section and extensively provided references for every paragraph in this article following Wikipedia:Citing sources guidelines. --Loremaster 18:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steps towards Featured Article status 

message: We should follow the Wikipedia:External links guidelines. --Loremaster 20:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed links to fringe websites and left links to notable reviews. --Loremaster 01:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the External links

message: According to a Wikipedia rule of thumb: 1) if something is in See also, try to incorporate it into main body 2) if something is in main body, it should not be in see also and therefore 3) good articles have no See also sections. --Loremaster 16:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your suggestion. Done. 16:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: About See also

message: The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail 
--Loremaster (talk) 18:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  PDF version of Holy Blood Holy Grail available online 

message: I removed the line that they had no historical proof when this is clearly POV, one can argue that they have provided plenty of proof, it is how the individual chooses to interpet it that matters.
I also removed a paragraph stating that the book was recevied negatively by all historians and critics without any citation or references, if these can be provided then obviously the statement can be put back in 90.209.124.230 (talk) 02:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I support your removal of the POV line. However, I've restored the paragraph with many citations and references. --Loremaster (talk) 18:38, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed two phrases 

message: The DNA testing edit was not original research but information taken from a Digging for the Truth documentary (season 2 episode 10: "Bloodlines"). However, since the DNA testing was that of a Merovingian Princess rather than that of her husband, the fact remains insignificant. Lung salad (talk) 23:28, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  DNA Testing 

message: Wikipedia is supposed to keep a neutral tone, and this article has clearly been written and edited by attack dogs. I'll be working to rewrite it to maintain more balance over the coming weeks. Dream of Goats (talk) 21:20, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Blimey! Dogs can't write!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:5C2F:B694:6D3E:C12B:E6AB:3EF (talk) 15:05, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone 

message: In fact the whole idea of the Holy Blood Holy Grail and the bloodline of Christ is not new and in fact has been held to be fact by many, many people since quite ancient times. The Cathars held that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and had children and this is one of the main reasons that the Cathar Crusades was launched. This article as a whole is poorly written, lacks good research and plays into a popular view that because Plantard apparently lied, or was paid to lie, makes the whole story false. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are a great many mysteries surrounding this all and even though it appears to be all wrapped up in fact it has just been swept under the rug. The problem is that the people behind all of this have made it look like a hoax to cover up the reality. Even during the Roman Empire times the idea of Mary Magdalene and Jesus being married was not uncommon. No mention is made of the fantastic sums of money spent by Sauniere in his renovations of Rennes-le-Chateau. He had been suspended for selling masses and yet was able to spend what in todays money would be millions of dollars renovating and upgrading the whole complex. He built a Villa for himself and gardens and towers even a large cage for monkeys. The whole article glosses over what is really going on. The strange geometry of the placement of the castles and churches in the area is not mentioned and the fact that this place has been occupied as a mystical place since before Roman Times. It is sad that first of all that Plantard was ever involved as all he was looking for was a quick buck, secondly that this has all been handled by the popular media. Just because Plantard may have lied does not mean there is no great secret here. In fact what is at Rennes-le-Chateau is just the tip of the iceberg, which was strongly suggested by Holy Blood, Holy Grail.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.35.68.4 (talk • contribs) 14:42, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cathars.  

message: Marina is not primarily a historian, rather a novelist who has some honorary degrees. She is not a qualified reference.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.35.68.4 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historian Marina Warner commented on The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail when it was first published 

message: This historian has a poor understanding of history. This was such an important topic that the Emperor Domitian in about 85 ordered Jesus' brother Judas' grandchildren to Rome to answer questions about their claims on the Throne of the Empire.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.35.68.4 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historian Ken Mondschein ridiculed the idea of a Jesus bloodline,  

message: This is entirely irrelevant and should be deleted. No one cares what he thinks and it has no bearing on this topic.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.35.68.4 (talk • contribs) 16:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quoting Robert McCrum, literary editor of The Observer newspaper, about The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail