Talk:History of European Jews in the Middle Ages

message: Even though the page is about the Middle Ages and not the Early Modern Period, the current Enlightenment section merely outlines time periods and barely mentions its impact on Jews and their culture. I plan on adding a thorough summary of the era, including the European Enlightenment and how it contributed to the Jewish Enlightenment, Haskalah, Emancipation and its origins in the French Revolution and Napoleon's reign, and Jewish reactions to everything, while not going into too much detail. If you have any comments or ideas, please let me know on this page or my own Talk page.
 Addy714 (talk) 23:47, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: More information on the Enlightenment

message: I read the article and I see a slightly editoralized, tone that I think is inappropriate. These reinforce an ethnocentric perspective and a moderately dramatized version of events. We should instead discuss what happened and leave projections out of the article. Examples include: 
"Not until the beginning of the ninth century did the Church succeed in drawing all of humanity within its jurisdiction." - Chinese, Africans, Native Americans, East Indians, and a variety of others were not and never came under the influence of the Church. It seems the writer only considered those within Roman influence as a relevant part of humanity, while the rest of the world is not. That's inappropriate, so I changed it. 
"which could not be bridged." - Tone is overly dramatic and slightly redundant. 
"On the other hand, the Church found itself compelled to make the Jew a fellow citizen of the believer; for it enforced upon her own communities the Biblical prohibition against usury; and thus the only way to conduct financial operations was to seek loans at a legally determined rate of interest from the adherents of another faith. Through these peculiar conditions the Jews rapidly acquired influence. At the same time they were compelled to find their pleasures at home and in their own circles only. Their sole intellectual food came from their own literature, to which they devoted themselves with all the strength of their nature." 
should be changed to
"On the other hand, the Church enforced upon her own communities the Biblical prohibition against usury; and the only way to conduct financial operations was to seek loans at a legally determined rate of interest from the adherents of another faith. Through these peculiar conditions the Jews rapidly acquired influence. At the same time they were compelled to find their pleasures at home and in their own circles only. Their sole intellectual food came from their own literature, to which they devoted themselves unwaveringly."
I am concerned with the undertones in the article. It sounds like the writer creates a dramatized picture of Jewish and Roman relations. As I have learned how important objectivity and NPOV is, I certainly would like to know how you all think of this? Another example:
"The Crusades.
The trials which the Jews endured from time to time in the different kingdoms of the Christian West were only indications of the catastrophe which broke over them at the time of the Crusades. A wild, unrestrained throng, for which the crusade was only an excuse to indulge its rapacity, fell upon the peaceful Jews and sacrificed them to its fanaticism. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed; see German Crusade, 1096. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France suffered especially. Philip Augustus treated them with exceptional severity. In his days the Third Crusade took place (1188); and the preparations for it proved to be momentous for the English Jews. After unspeakable trials, Jews were banished from England in 1290; and 365 years passed before they were allowed to settle again in the British Isles (see History of the Jews in England). The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320."
should be changed to 
The Crusades.
In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were utterly destroyed; see German Crusade, 1096. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France were (list actual events, not narrative interpretations) In his days the Third Crusade took place (1188); and the preparations for it proved to be momentous for the English Jews. After (such and such trials carried out by such and such people), Jews were banished from England in 1290 (by a decree from who and where); and 365 years passed before they were allowed to settle again in the British Isles (see History of the Jews in England). The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320.
it seems that the writer is overly narrative of the events. I get a picture of emotional drama, but I really do not get an objective or clear understanding of what happened. We should refrain from drawing conclusions without objective information. It almost sounds like the writer is writing more chapters to an unpublished ancient scripture, like a sequel to the old testament. I honestly did not get a clear picture of what happened, but I got a good dramatic visual interpretation. Some of this obviously can be cross referenced in the other articles, but it's not characteristic of how the other articles are handled. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The text you are referring to is directly from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.  Its tone was occasionally a bit florid or torrid or Victorian, though always interesting (and well-researched).  Feel free to make changes to bring it inline with modern encyclopedic tone, I think your above changed make a lot of sense. --Goodoldpolonius2 06:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree with the op. Even now I'm still finding a lot of weasel words. I'll be adding the appropriate tag soon. RSimione 01:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear goodness, I didn't realize how bad the article was until I tried editing it! Though I am trying to edit the language, I'm not knowledgeable in the subject, and this article need sources very desperately. RSimione 02:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappopriate Narrative Tone 

message: The above article was until recently only a timeline and I am trying to make it more of a history. I have copied into it a chunk of material from Antisemitism (that appears to duplicate much of this article) and intend to edit it and shorten it drastically there. I have also put links from Antisemitism and History of antisemitism to this article, considered as a sub-article of each of those. Would be pleased to read any comments. Thanks.Itsmejudith 10:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[History of antisemitism]] 

message: consider mentioning this, especially the Priores' tale. Niyant (talk) 19:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Cantebury Tales 

message: This article says that jews were moneylenders during the middle ages in europe but does not give proof of jews actually making money from usury. Is there any evidence of jews actually loaning money to gentiles and those gentiles actually paying the principle back with interest? Was it common for gentiles to take loans from jews and never pay them back? From what I have read alot of the nobility of europe took loans from jews and never were able to pay them back. So how exactly did jewish people make money from moneylending?  
Did jewish people actually make their money from the asian spice trade. Alot of evidence suggests that jewish people had links to the 'pre-age of discovery' spice trade?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.115.131.208 (talk) 17:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  How exactly did jews make money? 

message: I've run into something that doesn't seem to make sense, but I don't know if it needs changing or deleting.
The 'Tosaphist Period' section has its third sentence as "Christian theologians began calling for the slavery of all Jews in Saint Thomas Aquinas." The link 'Saint Thomas Aquinas' goes to the biography of the man Thomas Aquinas, in which the only mention of the Jews I can see is that Thomas Aquinas believed they should be tolerated.
I'm wondering from the sentence structure if "Saint Thomas Aquinas" is referring to a document or book of that name (since the sentence uses the word 'in'), but the only such thing on Wikipedia I can find was written centuries later by GK Chesterton, so can't be it.
The nearest reference link to that sentence links to a website which doesn't mention Aquinas at all (so only seems to be the source for the later part of the paragraph about what Henry III did).
I have no knowledge of the subject (I came to the page looking to learn), so I wondered if someone with such knowledgeknows what the sentence should be referring to, or if it is simply wrong and needs deleting? Also I'm new to the comment pages, so I apologise if I'm not following any established format or ground rules.
Alangriffith (talk) 15:06, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saint Thomas Aquinas? (Tosaphist Period) 

message: The section of Jewish-Christian relations has a very credible source but it needs one more to support it. I plan on adding this second source to the article as well as provide a third source that offers a different view of Jewish-Christian relations to make the article more comprehensive. If anyone has any questions, comments, or concerns please respond to me on this talk page or my own. Rdelto105 (talk) 04:49, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  edits to Jewish-Christian Relations. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I find it biased at worst, insane at best, that there is a section with "expulsions" and just one of the more than 20 expulsions from European antions (not the largest, or first, or last) is mentioned. 
Since we are at it, there is also no mention to the law, contributions, or lifestyle in the different regions, and I am confussed about why there is a -fairly inexact-part regarding the Visigoths of Iberia but no interest in the Franks, Carolingeans or Ostrogoths.Shoudn´t all that be added?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cateyed (talk • contribs) 22:03, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expulsions? 

message: This is without a doubt the worst article I've ever seen on Wikipedia. I can't even believe it exists. The section titled "Church laws in the middle ages" doesn't have a single citation! In addition to that, the language used throughout the article is heavily opinionated, and what few sources are cited to back up the most controversial points are generally from biased sources. Sources from a website built and maintained by the American-Israeli Co-operative Enterprise? Seriously? That site doesn't have any of its own citations that I could find, and there's no evidence that the authors of the site are experts in this subject who can be trusted as reliable.
We need primary sources on the History of Jews in the Middle Ages, and a complete overhaul of the language used to give the article a NPOV. Until then, I'm adding the NPOV tag. 
The page for "The History of Jews in England" is a much better example of what is an acceptable article for this website. The difference is staggering.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.196.172.242 (talk) 15:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs a serious overhaul or removal 

message: Samuel K. Cohn, Jr., 'The Black Death and the Burning of Jews,'  Past & Present, No. 196 (Aug., 2007), pp. 3-36
:A very good overall sketch of the masses vs elites role, among other things, in the persecution of Jews.  Nishidani (talk) 13:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Life's getting in the way a bit, but I am still working on this cleanup. Lordbedo (talk) 17:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Life comes first. Any serious contributions here take moneths, 'the rags of time' if they are to stick. Take it slow  and easy.Nishidani (talk) 20:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: The Enlightenment appeared at the end of the Early Modern Era, and was characterized by a set of values and ideas that completely opposed the previous Medieval age. It stressed logic and the importance of thinking for oneself, instead of blindly following tradition or prejudice — a huge boon for the Jews.
This is not cited. Most modern historians would not characterise the values of the Enlightenment as "completely opposed" to the Middle Ages, nor would they assert that the Middle Ages (or Renaissance!) lacked logic(! a massive obsession for medieval scholars) and advocated blind obedience. I think the development of liberalism + pluralism has to be stated in a much more nuanced way. This section needs a rewrite and more sources to consult. Maskettaman (talk) 10:15, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enlightenment section bad/oversimplified historiography