Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Arabic/Archive 1

message: As many of you know, there is no one standard way of transliterating from Arabic to Roman letters. So "Mohammed", "Mohammad", and "Mohamed", and "Muhammad" are all quasi-correct ways of spelling the prophet's name in English language texts. This can be quite a hassle on Wikipedia.
It seems to me that three things are needed. 
# We need people to provide the names in for Arab figures. For instance, Abu Sayyaf (organization), Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi (poet), and Taif (city) are lacking their names written out in Arabic. If I can get some volunteers, I'll try to collect a list of articles that need this.
# We need to see if we can agree on some sort of standard spelling for Arabic articles on Wikipedia. For instance the "El" in Mohamed ElBaradei and the "al" in Mohammed Atta al Sayed are spelled the same in Arabic letters, but are translated differently in English. Is there a reason for this? (Both people are Egyptian.) If we can agree on a standard, then we can move articles to standard names (with redirects, of course).
# We need to make sure we have proper redirects for alternate spellings for Arabic articles. For instance, if someone looks up Muhammad Atta, this needs to redirect to Mohammed Atta al Sayed. This can be confusing. Doing a little Googling, I found that the most common spellings for Mohammed are "Mohammed", "Mohammad", "Muhammad", and "Mohamed". (This applies to the Prophet as well as other people with this name.) The common spellings for Abdullah are "Abdullah", "Abdallah", and "Abdulla". Etc.
If I can get some volunteers, I'll try to organize a project. Who's in? – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 15:24, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
# Me. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 15:24, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
# I was going to start making the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Arabic) policy, so I think I have a lot to contribute and many ideas that could help. 500LL 21:11, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
# I have a basic knowledge of Arabic and am familiar with the alphabet. Would like to be involved. - ulayiti (talk) 17:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Starting the project 

message: Should we pick a single spelling for "Mohammed", for instance? There may be one figure named Mohammed whose name is most often spelled "Mohammed", and another person named Mohammed whose name is most commonly spelled "Muhamed". Should we pick a spelling as standard, and make sure all articles use the standard format? 
Three options:
# We pick a spelling as standard, and make sure all articles use the standard format.
# We use whichever spelling is most common for the specific person.
# We use a standard spelling for article names unless there's a very strong preference for a non-standard spelling for that particular person.
I'm leaning toward option 3. Anyone else? – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 17:03, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
: Agreed. Though I think it should be a priority to retain the spelling used by the person themselves in case it's known and noticeably differs from the standard (such as Mohamed ElBaradei). - ulayiti (talk) 17:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ulayiti's suggestion sounds good. --Yodakii 05:49, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree.  I support the 3rd choice.  --LakeHMM 05:00, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First decision: should there be consistent spelling in article names? 

message: Below is a list of options.  Each issue will have a bullet, and each option will have a bullet within that.
:*Additions: If your preference has yet to be listed, please add another option under the respective issue, or, if the issue isn't addressed, add it.  When listing new options or issues, do not include discussion - that should be placed in an unordered sublist of the option.  Please place additions at the end of their respective lists or sub-lists.
:*Voting: Under the option you wish to support, add your vote with any comment you would like to accompany it.  Please take a look at some of the argument on the subject before voting.  Sign all votes.
:*Response & Discussion: Discussion is encouraged!!  If you wish to speak on a certain issue or option, do so in an unordered sub-list where appropriate.  If you wish to respond to someone else's specific vote, do so directly under their vote, also in an unordered sub-list.  Organize further into unordered sub-lists as necessary, as long as it stays within the issue of ال.  Sign all discussion.
--LakeHMM 06:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll

message: I have created a list of Articles needing Arabic script. If any of you are familiar enough with the Arabic script, and would like to add these to articles, here's a list for you. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 14:34, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
:What wonderful sleuthing! Keep them coming, and I'll try and add the Arabic! --Gareth Hughes 14:41, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have created the template  and the associated category for easier tagging of these articles. You're welcome to use that (and please edit it if it's not satisfactory). The template can be seen below:

- ulayiti (talk) 14:59, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles needing Arabic script 

message: Regarding literal translation (i.e. writing the name of an Arabic region/city in English words with meaning rather than just using Latin alphabet of the same name); although "المنطقة الشرقية"  means "eastern province", it is extremely rare to see something like (Al Mantaka Al Sharqiya). Instead, "Eastern Province" is predominant and used much more often in English texts (more than 99%) AND in more credible sources, e.g. government agencies. In this case, which one should be used?  
Moreover, it is extremely rare to see a combination such as "Ash Sharqiyah Province" which is currently used as a title for the article. It is a half-translation name for the Arabic one, making it very awkward. Not to mention that the spelling varies greatly, unlike Riyadh, Jeddah, or Dhahran for example.
See the debate in Talk:Ash Sharqiyah Province
Also note that I'm not asking to rename the Riyadh article to "Gardens" or Abqaiq to "Little Bedbug".
In short, all names of Arabic cities, regions, and -sometimes- people should be standarized to avoid any confusion.   -- Eagleamn 06:55, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
:Thanks, Eagle. I think you have come up with an increadibly important point. I can see that the article you give as an example would be better served as being:
:Eastern Province ( al-Manṭaqä aš-Šarqiyyä) is a province of...
:However, I think there are some Arabic names that can be easily translated into English that are best left in the original:
:Bab Sharqi ( al-Bāb aš-Šarqī, the Eastern Gate) is one of the gates of the Old City of Damascus...
:I think the difference is what we were discussing about a customary name above. The first example given was that Cairo should be called such, even though its official name is al-Qahira (I'm not sure how this sits alongside Bombay asking the world to call it Mumbai). We could say that Eastern Province is the customary English name, but that Eastern Gate is not the customary name (even the guide books call it Bab Sharqi).
: --Gareth Hughes 11:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Region names 

message: As an example, let's look at Bandar bin Sultan, an important figure. What should the article be titled? 
*Bandar bin Sultan (as is)? 
*Bandar of Saudi Arabia? 
*Bandar al-Saud? 
*Bandar bin Sultan al-Saud?
*Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz? 
*Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz al-Saud?
I would recommend that we use "XXX bin YYY al-Saud" for all members of the Saudi royal family. What do you think?
This also brings up two related questions.
#When is it appropriate to use "bin", and when is it appropriate to use "ibn"?
#Is it best to write "Abdul Aziz" or "Abdulaziz" or "Abdelaziz"?
– Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 19:40, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
* Keeping with the standard transliteration, I'd recommend 'Abd al-Aziz (have we agreed on how to transliterate the letter 'ain?). The name al-Sa'ud should also be spelt with the 'ain if at all feasible. - ulayiti (talk) 10:08, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's the second part of a given name. Many given names are made up of "Muhammad" followed by another name. In this case I think a dash between the names is appropriate (Mohamed-Atta). --Yodakii 06:40, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saudi royal family 

message: I'm glad we have such a great range of expertise working on this project, and I think we have some good ideas, but I'm worried we'll get bogged down in the details and not move ahead. The condition of the Arabic articles on Wikipedia is so poor and inconsistent at the moment that I think any standard would be a blessing, even if it isn't perfect. I'd like to get a finalized v1.0 of the standard so we can start applying it to articles. But there are a few details to work out first, and I'd like to get some opinions.
#For long vowels, such as a long u, should we use u, ū, û, or uu? (The ISO 233-2 standard doesn't seem to cover vowels, unfortunately, since they're usually not written in Arabic.)
#For ta' marbūta, should we use ẗ (the ISO 233-2 standard), or should we use h or t where appropriate instead (as it might be less confusing, and it may show up better in some browsers)?
#Should 'alif lām assimilate with a following sun letter, such as ash-shams or ad-Din, or should it always be written as "al-"?
#Should Arabic names be always alphebetized by family name, always by given name, or should it be a hodgepodge that depends on custom?
Thanks for your input, – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 14:35, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
##An accented character is better in my view, and certainly long vowels should be distinguished from short ones.
##Should ة not simply be omitted unless as part of a construct? If included, it should be included as "h"; this is the least surprising for the English speaker. There's an argument for transliterating it as "t" where it follows alif, in line with common pronunciation (e.g. حياة as hayāt) - I'm not particularly committed to either view on that.
##I prefer non-assimilation.
##Tricky. I would argue by family name in modern cases where there is one, otherwise by the first component in the commonly used name, e.g. ibn Khaldun under i, Mu'awiya under m.Palmiro 10:51, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving ahead