Talk:Mountain Jews

message: Interesting article. :)   But is there any reason for that National Geographic quote to be there?   I'd much rather see our own summary, which obviously could incorporate any relevant information from the NG piece. Markalexander100 07:08, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: no. Geagea 17:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting article

message: Either add all other Jewish groups, who were living in the area of Khazar Empire (Ashkenazi and Georgian Jews, Russian and Hungarian Subbotniks - Selezny), or remove Caucasian Jews from this group.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.65.248.4 (talk • contribs) 4 Feb 2006.
:The relationship between the Mountain Jews and the Khazars stems from the fact that the Mountain Jews' ancestors lived in the Caucasus prior to the rise of Khazaria, were probably subject to it, and may have contributed to its conversion to Judaism. See, e.g., Blady, Ken. Jewish Communities in Exotic Places.
:this is a very different relationship than that of the Ashkenazim, whose Khazar descent is an extreme minority view being disproven by genetic studies, or the other groups you mention, whose relationship with the Khazars is largely apocryphal. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: "Groups connected to the Khazars"

message: First, I do not like ignorant authors. Calling Transcuacasia "exotic place" in relation of anything Jewish is a top of ignorance. Transcaucasia, is known from ancient Mesopotamian, Hebrew, Persian and Greek sources. Anybody knows from the Megilat Esther, that Jews, were living in ALL satrapies of Persian Empire (including Caucasian Albania). From the point view of Jews - Western Europe ('Lands of Franks") , India and Ethiopia - are indeed exotic places.
Second, the name "Groups connected to the Khazars" implies, that those groups descended from the Khazars. For the sake of NPV I propose, to rename this group to "Groups supposedly connected to the Khazars", then you may include there all the groups, who at some point of view, where living in the area of Khazar Empire. This also include following Jewish sub-ethnic groups: Ashkenazim (or the earlier populations assimilated into Ashkenazim), Sepharadim in Bulgaria and Turkey (there is documented facts, that some Jewish Khazars moved to Byzantium), Crymchaks, Crimean Karaims, Hungarian Sabbatarins, Russian Subbotniks, East Caucasian Jews and Georgian Jews.
Nothing yet proven or disproven 100%. The DNA research of East Caucasian Jews doesn't show Khazar ancestry neither. Yet Ashkenazim not included into this group, and Caucasian Jews included.
As Crimean Jews (Krymchaks) included, and anybody knows, that they were largely assimilated by Ashkenazim (that's one of reasons why they are almost extinct commnunity now), so Ashkenazim should be included too.
Anyway, I not removed all the old and long ago disproven theories about origin of Caucasian Jews. As I trying to preserve neutral point of view. But it hard to do, when other editors don't.
For example in the article about Juhuri language, written:
"The language is closely related to Middle Persian; it belongs to the Iranian division of the Indo-European languages. A similar, but still different language is spoken by the Muslim Tats of Azerbaijan, a group to which the Mountain Jews have sometimes been considered to belong. Speakers of Juhuri are called Juhuro, which simply means "Jews"."
The style of writing implies ancestral relation between Jews and Tats.
It's like if I will write in the article about Yiddish:
"The language is closely related to High German; it belongs to the Germanic division of the Indo-European languages. A similar, but still different language is spoken by the Christian Germans of Germany, a group to which the European Jews have sometimes been considered to belong. Speakers of Yiddish are called Yiddn, which simply means "Jews"."
But nobody sane will imply conection between European Jews and Germans, while they freely doing this in case of Caucasian Jews.
This was just example of not providing NPV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.65.47.98 (talk • contribs) 11 Feb 2006.
: BTW, clearly some (perhaps many) hold precisely the view about Jewish Germans that you are putting forward as absurd. For example, I've been fighting a losing battle to describe Henry Kissinger as a Jewish American rather than a German American. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not exotic

message: I see that "Juhurim" was changed to "Juhuro" without comment. A quick Google search suggests that they do, indeed call themselves "Juhuro"; does "Juhurim" also exist? It would follow the pattern of the naming of similar subgroups of the Jews ("Ashkenazim", "Sephardim", "Mizrahim"…). - Jmabel | Talk 06:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Juhurim / Juhuro 

message: 66.81.74.75 01:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "IM" 

message: He is a Mountain Jew from Derbent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.68.168.228 (talk) 07:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Khazanov has no relation to Mountain Jews or the Caucasus whatsoever. His mother was an Ashkenazi and his biological father was also an Ashkenazi. Considering the surname Khazanov as far as I'm aware it's his mother's maiden surname. http://bozaboza.narod.ru/hazanova.html Russian Wikipedia says that "khazan" is an ancient Jewish word, not specific to the Caucasus. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 12:22, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who removed Khazanov from the celebrity list? 

message: Please search carefully and amend them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.63.173.243 (talk) 13:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:   There is no Mountain Jews in Armenia or in Kazakhsthan 

message: All the "citations needed" can be removed.
1. as a soldier in IDF i know axactly the origins of our generals. more of that one of my best friends is relative to them.
2. about Illiazarov - well, my moms uncle wrote a book about him. they was good friends. (rip)
3. zhasmine: she's my mom's cousine.
4. as our number is small, many of us are relatives in some sort... ru:user:david_tm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.154.197.51 (talk) 20:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations needed 

message: The last two paragraphs of the lead were copied word for word from the Telegraph article originally used as the citation for the second paragraph, which made it a copyright violation. I have added quotation marks and citations for both paragraphs. Editors are not supposed to copy material directly, especially without full quotation, but to use sources for facts.  See Wiki policies on plagiarism and copyright violation.Parkwells (talk) 15:02, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to trace these sections to the original editor but did not find who had added them. They are at least two years old.Parkwells (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright violation

message: he should be mentioned in the list as a member of the knesset i think  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.81.21 (talk) 15:16, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robert Tiviaev 

message: I don't think 'billionaire' or 'millionaire' are useful designations so have been deleting those terms from the list of notable Mountain Jews.
Compare, for instance:  Michael Bloomberg: American billionaire to Mike Bloomberg: American businessman and politician, founder of media company Bloomberg L.P.  Bloomberg could lose all his money tomorrow, but he'd still have founded his company, been mayor etc.  Otherwise we'll need yearly audits.
Dustin Diamond: Television star. Or Dustin Diamond: Actor. Better? You make the call.
67.250.51.204 (talk) 00:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian Billionaire 

message: Name of this group of Jews comes from the russian "gorskij evrej" that literally translates "highland jew", "mountain jew" translates to russian "gornyj evrej". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.149.35.62 (talk) 13:50, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect title 

message: Mountain Jews populate both Eastern and Northern slopes of Caucasus. Please stop twisting facts.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.172.169.87 (talk) 16:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  No one calls us East Caucasian Jews 

message: thanks. 79.182.150.47 (talk) 02:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article needs some color photos of mountain jews 

message: Hello,
I have a question on references for the Mountain Jews population figures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Jews
Could the author share with me the citations from which he got the figures for the total population in 2004: 150,000 to 270,000 (estimated)
Israeli population - 100,000 to 140,000
I appreciate your help.
Many thanks,
Hagit Baris, M.D.
Medical Geneticist
Deputy Director of The Recanati Genetic Institute
Rabin Medical Center, Beilinson Hospital
Petach-Tikva, Israel
email: barish@clalit.org.il
Phone: 972-3-9377659
Fax: 972-3-9377660  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.114.146.227 (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mountain Jews population estimation 

message: The Guba mass grave is a heavily disputed article. As the article says, the possibility of Jews being among it, and even if the bones are of murdered people at all, are based off the claims of one person who has refused investigations. No foreign experts have examined the human remains, and that no documentary or archival evidence has been presented that mentions a massacre. The section should be removed. --216.125.48.225 (talk) 16:53, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guba grave 

message: I corrected some grammar and capitalisation mistakes in the lead but I bet there are many more in the article. This article might need a cleanup after all. Jewnited (talk) 13:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many grammar mistakes and tone not encyclopaedic.  

message: Keeping both denominations (and two different links to the same page) seems rather superfluous when there is an existing article on the subject. Trimming an article isn't removing information, curious people can find the synonym at Judeo-Tat. - Olybrius (talk) 10:24, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but the disruptive user who reverted your edit out of principle never edits talk pages. Their vision is that Wikipedia is not a collaborative project.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:31, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

text: I agree too. (Hope this is sufficient for a consensus.) --Off-shell (talk) 11:54, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your support, I will judeo-tatify once again :) - Olybrius (talk) 08:49, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Juhuri vs Judeo-Tat  

message: According to the article: "Mountain Jews left Chechnya because of nationalism and kidnappings" is a distortion of reality, because Mountain Jews had good relations with their Chechen neighbors, thus they were not affected by Chechen aspirations for independence. Mountain Jews have left Chechnya because of the commencement of Russo-Chechen war.
Hebrew Mountain Man (talk) 14:52, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What I originally wrote in the edit summary: can you corroborate that with a reliable source? El_C 15:01, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest neutrality and that's what I have done by reformulating the paragraph. This way we do not mention neither of them (Russians and Chechens), Fair for Jews, Chechens and Russians.Hebrew Mountain Man (talk) 15:58, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read what I wrote carefully. You can't argue neutrality when it is only based on your own original research. Your edit needs to be tied to reliable sources. El_C 16:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have suggested neutrality in order to avoid using true but antagonizing phrases like: Jews left because of Russian invasion and indiscriminate bombardment of civilian population by the Russian army. Source: "American Jewish Year Book, 1998" page 14, line six from the end.Hebrew Mountain Man (talk) 16:31, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't care that it's antagonizing, we only care that it is verified. Please stop removing that passage until this matter is resolved(!). You are edit warring. El_C 16:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a source and edited accordingly. Did you read it? Hebrew Mountain Man (talk) 17:02, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: But does that book further contain anything that refutes what you are removing? Was the rise of nationalism and kidnapping on the part of militants not a factor? Or are you simply finding it "antagonizing"? Because that would not be good enough. El_C 17:13, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It makes the impression that you do not understand, again. "antagonizing" not for me, but might be for Russian readers if it will be quoted from the book that Jews left Chechnya because of "the bloody Russian attack". So I suggest removing the current false paragraph in the article and replace it by simply writing: "Given the marked changes in the 1990s following the dissolution of the Soviet Union many Mountain Jews emigrated to Israel or the United States".Hebrew Mountain Man (talk) 17:43, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

text: Again, you conveniently ignore the facts. The article falsely states that Jews left because of "militants", while it ignores the fact that Jews left because of Russian invasion, as stated in the book. It ignores the fact of evacuation due to Russian attack and bombardment of Grozny.Hebrew Mountain Man (talk) 18:11, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Then feel free to clarify that point. *** Please do not remove this discussion(!) I'm not even sure why you did it (frustration?)—at any case, that is not permitted, even if you are walking away, which for the sakes of the article I encourage you not to do. El_C 19:24, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  90's emigration from former Soviet Union 

message: Didn't seem to match the numbers of global MJ and there is no reference in the article to a Swiss community. Not to mention that 8 million is about the entire population of Switzerland. Yoweiner (talk) 01:14, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah if it says that, it's quite obviously false. --Yalens (talk) 01:16, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Improved since then, it has been.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:7C87:4F00:DC82:503:3851:1F2 (talk) 15:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  8,000,000 Mountain Jews in Switzerland? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Gorskie Yevrey is not right! The first word is plural form, but the second is singular. It's not grammatically correct in Russian.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.252.29.70 (talk) 21:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gorskie Yevrey 

message: Do they really belong here: Tat, Armeno-Tats? Should the recent change get reverted? YCH2277 (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: "Related ethnic groups" should just be retired, period. Actually I thought there was already a discussion that closed in favor of that...--Calthinus (talk) 00:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related ethnic groups in question: [[Tat people (Caucasus)]], [[Armeno-Tats]]