Talk:Syntactic Structures

message: In its present state this article is laughably inadequate.
I know it is de rigueur, in generative grammar, to describe the works of Chomsky with exaltation.  But these descriptions rarely stop there.  This article does.  In an encyclopedia, it seems more appropriate to focus on technical and practical contributions instead.
E.g. Knuth read Syntactic structures not as a guilty pleasure, as the present wording suggests; he read it because it is the foundation for some of his contributions to computer science (attribute grammars, LR parsing). Rp (talk) 08:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To clarify: my problem is not with the article's content, but the tone of writing.  The publishing of Syntactic Structures is believed by many academics to be a watershed moment in the annals of modern linguistics. In a favorable and highly influential review of the book, (...).  An encyclopedia is a reference work, not a reverence work. Rp (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately this isn't very helpful. There are many references to support the text you quoted and called reverential in tone. The truth, for me at least, is that this tone cannot be helped. It is inevitable. Chomsky was, as a matter of fact, revered to some extent by generations of linguists from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even now he is, although many of his earlier contributions have been abandoned later by himself and by other linguists. Chomsky really did change the landscape of linguistics with Syntactic Structures. Lees really did write almost a book-length review, a favorable review (i.e. not a critical one) in the journal Language that highly influenced the mindset of linguists back then and attracted them to the Chomskyian brand of linguistics. So Lees's review was really "favorable and highly influential". Historians of linguistics who lived through those times all say the same thing. Remember 1950s and 1960s was the time when new Linguistics departments and programs were being founded in American universities. Chomsky became kind of a superstar in this academic milieu during the latter half of the 20th century, and any unbiased, truthful account of Chomsky's work will inevitably reflect these facts, in content and in tone. --Zaheen (talk) 06:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If the tone wasn't inevitable, we wouldn't be dealing with objectively describable material, and hence its discussion wouldn't belong in Wikipedia at all.  But of course there is a difference between reverential writing (which this article is guilty of at present) and a description of reverence by others.  The latter can be discussed objectively - although I think such discussion should remain limited to a hypothetical article The sociology of linguistics. . Rp (talk) 16:57, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: (Dialect note: Americans use the term "department" where British English uses "faculty".) 
It is not correct that the first department of linguistics at an American university was at the University of Pennsylvania in 1947. The first was about ten years earlier at the University of Chicago, headed by Edward Sapir. However--and I have been unable to find an account of the subsequent events--the department was shut down during World War II and it was not reestablished until after the University of Pennsylvania's had acted.Dale Chock (talk) 19:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early history of U.S. linguistics departments 

message: Substituted at 07:29, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: ===17 Nov 2016===
* Number of paragraphs = 37
* Number of syllables = 7400 (approx)
* Number of words = 4045
* Number of sentences = 154
* Average Syllable per Word (ASW) = 1.9
* Average paragraph length = about 110 words = 4.2 sentences
* Average sentence length (ASL) = 26.2 words
Thus, the Flesch reading ease score is : 206.835 – (1.015 x ASL) – (84.6 x ASW) = 206.835- 26.593 - 160.74 = 19.5
Which means college graduate level.
Zaheen (talk) 13:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Readability statistics for reference 

message: * Number of paragraphs = 37
* Number of syllables = 7400 (approx)
* Number of words = 4045
* Number of sentences = 154
* Average Syllable per Word (ASW) = 1.9
* Average paragraph length = about 110 words = 4.2 sentences
* Average sentence length (ASL) = 26.2 words
Thus, the Flesch reading ease score is : 206.835 – (1.015 x ASL) – (84.6 x ASW) = 206.835- 26.593 - 160.74 = 19.5
Which means college graduate level.
Zaheen (talk) 13:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 17 Nov 2016

message: *No. of sentences = 178 	
*No. of words = 4092 	
*Average words per sentence = 22.99 	
*Average syllables per word  (ASW) = 1.80
*Flesch reading ease score = 31.3 
*No. of complex words = 875 	
*Percent of complex words = 21.38% 	
Zaheen (talk) 16:56, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 18 Nov

message: *Flesch reading ease score now at 35.5. 
* Grade level = 14 = College Sophomore
* No. of sentences 	193 	
* No. of words 	3837 	
* No. of complex words 	811 	
* Percent of complex words 	21.14% 	
* Average words per sentence 	19.88 	
* Average syllables per word 	1.79
Zaheen (talk) 04:19, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 19 Nov

message: * The readability of the lead according to the Flesch reading ease score : 46.4
* Corresponding grade level = 10th grade
* 41% of the articles on Wikipedia are harder to read than this lead.
* Also, avg word per sentence = 15 --> 7th/8th grade level.
Zaheen (talk) 17:21, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 20 Nov 2016

message: For the entire article : 
* Flesch reading ease score = 37.1
* Article harder than 77% of all wikipedia articles
Zaheen (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 21 Nov 2016

message: *Lead readability now : 50.3 => easier to read than 51% of wikipedia articles. Zaheen (talk) 18:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 22 Nov 2016

message: (for the introductory section only as edited by Marchino61)
Flesch Reading Ease 51.0. Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 10.7.
Marchino61 (talk) 07:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: 20 Aug 2018

message: I was asked to provide some feedback on the content and style of this article. I'll refer to the criteria for B-Class articles.
1.  The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations.
::References and inline citations are certainly sufficient. One criticism I have, however, is that the footnotes combine substantive commentary (e.g. note 1 or note 10 are virtually paragraphs) with straight references. This is certainly not disqualifying and seems to be the practice on some good articles.
2.  The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies.
::There is a good deal of coverage, but it is uneven. The section "Background" seems to cover much more of Noam Chomsky's early career and life than is necessary to understand this book. In contrast, "Publication" seems a bit anemic in comparison. "Contents" is, on the whole, appropriate, while "Rhetorical style" and "Criticisms" both left me scratching my head. Why are these relative handful of reactions cited (especially the two commentators in "Rhetorical style") over others? I'm not sure that the solution is to add more commentators, however. I would rather see general discussion of the the praise and critiques the book has generated.
3. The article has a defined structure.
::As mentioned above, the footnotes and the balance of the sections seem a bit off. That said, the general scheme under which the article is organized seems appropriate.
4.  The article is reasonably well-written.
::Reasonably well written, yes, but at times a bit fulsome. Sentences such as, "At the time, young Chomsky was a relatively unknown scholar," and, "It was written by none other than his father, William Chomsky, one of the foremost Hebrew scholars at the time," strike me as overly personal.
5.  The article contains supporting materials where appropriate.
::The infobox and cover illustration are appropriate.
6.  The article presents its content in an appropriately understandable way.
::In general the book and the linguistic theories it presents are adequately introduced. There are several items mentioned without explanation, however. These include:
::* "neo-Bloomfieldian linguist" (also post-Bloomfieldian)
::* "inadequacy of inductive approaches"
::* "Quine's critiques of logical empiricism"
::* "Yngve's mechanical translation project"
::* "a formal, derivational rule applied to underlying structures"
::I would also recommend that the abbreviation LSLT be spelled out at least once in each section, rather than only once in the text plus in the infobox and references.
Overall, the article is in relatively good shape. With more balance and just a bit more explanation it may well qualify for good article status. My compliments to the contributors. Cnilep (talk) 02:14, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review 

message: ; References
I have now separated the footnotes from the straightforward references. Zaheen (talk) 11:41, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Followup to review

message: Syntactic Structures was the fourth book in the Janua Linguarum series. It was the series's bestselling book. It was reprinted 13 times until 1978. In 1969, a French translation by Michel Braudeau was published by Éditions du Seuil. In 1973, Mouton published a German translation by Klaus-Peter Lange.
------------------------------------
Uncited material from publication section. Can move it back when cited. Sagecandor (talk) 17:39, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that I have moved back the part along with inline citations and full references. Zaheen (talk) 05:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited from Publication section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi guys, so you won't be thunderstruck: I know it is rated as a 'good' article, but I'm writing a revision of the introduction and making a comparison with Hjelmslev's Prolegomena to a Theory of Language. I think it has been an extremely well kept secret that the computational model Chomsky presents is not his at all, but belongs to Hjelmslev whose theory is a staple of functional--structural linguistics as well as semiotics. It's a little conspicuous that while Syntactic Structures cites few other people than Hjelmslev, and Seuren in his History of Western Linguistics takes up points between the works that are identical, the Wikipedia article fails to make any reference to the original. It kinda looks like a cover-up. Anyhow, improvements will be necessary because people need to know the truth. Weidorje (talk) 22:16, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Weidorje, what you have added regarding Hjelmslev's work looks very interesting and it is very bold of you to make these changes. To be clear, I do not doubt your good faith in this regard,  but in its current formulation it appears to me to be mostly your original research. In my humble opinion, your edits as they stand now have an effect of exaggerating or giving undue importance to a certain point of view (Seuren's? Yours? Not very clear) that, if verifiable and found to supported by primary and secondary sources, could eventually belong to a subsection in the Criticism section, but it should not be given such prominence in the lead section nor does it merit a standalone section right after the lead section. This is not how good articles on books are structured. I have temporarily removed your edits. But I am in no way suggesting that they do not belong at all in this article. But I feel like we need to discuss the merit of your added content before we can reinsert them. I hope to have a respectful discussion with you on this. --Zaheen (talk) 10:38, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

text: Pinging  for comments. --Zaheen (talk) 10:38, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. The sources are clear: while Chomsky never claimed to have invented the theory, it is clearly visible in Hjelmslev's original, as is well explained by Seuren. I've added two further quotes to Talk:Language#Edits_undone_March_2020. Are Cnilep and Zaheen together in this? Where did you get your idea from? Wikipedia needs to be accurate, and you cannot use it to spread your own agenda.Weidorje (talk) 10:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear , it is *you* who have added a lot of content which, by your own admission, constitute an "extremely well kept secret" and it is *you* who is claiming it to be "clearly visible" where in fact it is far from clear from my perspective. I was not aware of this "secret". Hjelmslev was not mentioned nor was he given any such importance in the many. many reviews of Syntactic Structures. What you have added could be considered, once it can be verified to be true (which I highly doubt), a minor point of view at best. So I have a right to be skeptical about your claims and bold additions and imo it could very well be original research on your behalf based on flimsy evidence and without secondary sources backing up your claims. The burden is on you to prove otherwise. Nevertheless, I offered to have a respectful discussion on this, but got "nonsense" and an accusation of conspiracy in return from you. This is very disappointing and  not the way to have a fruitful discussion. --Zaheen (talk) 12:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

text: Pinging  --Zaheen (talk) 12:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Because your statements are not accurate. Seuren's Western Linguistics is a secondary source. Besides, Syntactic Structures directly cites Hjelmslev. I'm just curious to know: I learned from Wikipedia that Chomsky invented formal linguistics. Can I ask you, politely, who you learned it from? Weidorje (talk) 12:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please cite the exact quotes from Seuren's Western Linguistics which support the content that you added?  --Zaheen (talk) 13:45, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

text: --Zaheen (talk) 14:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

text: Right, so the point made by Seuren as a generative grammarian is that while the American formalists such as Harris in the 1950s made a great job, Hjelmslev was doing a bad job. Prolegomena is a bad book. A bad bad book. However, this is not a question of a literary review. What Seuren makes clear is that the idea of using formal grammars for linguistics comes from Hjelmslev, as far as we know. The fact that there were a lot of people applying them in the 1950s cannot possibly help the case of claiming the theory for Chomsky. But what is also important is that Seuren makes clear that even the idea of recursion derives directly from Hjelmslev (even though it's associated with Chomsky). Seuren furthermore makes clear that the idea of generating all and only all grammatical sentences is derived directly from Hjelmslev. After these points, there's nothing left to be original about generative grammar, even though Prolegomena is, as we all know, a very, very bad book. You also say that Chomsky doesn't properly cite Hjelmslev. Now, could we make this work for the idea that Chomsky invented glossematics? Weidorje (talk) 06:32, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

text: I think you should forget about the 'good' rating for this article and focus on accuracy. It's quite impossible for Wikipedia to move somebody's theory under another person's name. It needs to be made perfectly clear that Chomsky's work is not original if the article is to be any longer than say thirty words. Now that the comparison with Prolegomena and tagmemics is there, it is hard to see any reason to remove it. It is actually very interesting for everyone to see. Anyway, you still haven't answered my question where you got the idea formal linguistics was invented by Chomsky? Weidorje (talk) 06:40, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

text: As regards the word 'adaptation', the point is that Syntactic Structures is original to the degree that it makes a tagmemic interpretation of glossematics. Someone else might say that this is not enough to be considered as original anyhow, so we could also go with the word 'presentation'. Weidorje (talk) 07:04, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

text: Okay, I have been looking into this. Most historical sources (Seuren, Joseph, Tomalin etc.) consider Hjelmslev as a precursor of generative grammar. However, the general consensus seems to be that Syntactic Structures is an adaptation of Zellig Harris's theory. We see quite clearly that formal linguistics, or what many today might call 'generative grammar' was the trend when Chomsky became a linguist. Lightfoot however suggests that Syntactic Structures doesn't consider language cognition at all, and such interpretations were only made afterwards in context with the Chomsky–Skinner debate. Since Harris 1951 doesn't place the object into the verb phrase (as was done by Pike), this would be the difference between Harris and Chomsky, although there are further technical differences which Chomsky discussed in The Logical Structure of Language, pp. 41–45. But we still need to be clear about the origin of the two central ideas of generative grammar which are (1) grammar generates all and only all grammatical sentences (2) it can generate an infinite number of sentences. These are the logical consequences of Carnap's Logical Syntax of Language (1937), although as Seuren suggests, they were first implemented into linguistics by Hjelmslev. This means that the current version of the article is not adequate, although the previous version was also misleading. I accept the deletion of my edits on the condition that I'm allowed to work the article into a form which properly explains why Syntactic Structures became influential, and to avoid confusion, there will need to be a comparison with the relevant original sources which are as follows: (1) Carnap 1937 The Logical Structure of Language (2) Hjelmslev 1943 Prolegomena to a Theory of Language (3) Harris 1951 Structural Linguistics. Syntactic Structures cannot be presented as a literary work in its own right because it is a scientific publication. It is meant to be a textbook, and as in any textbook, the original input is expected to be low. Weidorje (talk) 09:27, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: A major revision on its way