Talk:Renaissance in Poland

message: So-called "Muscovy", which according to the author of this article wallowed in barbarism,actually availed itself of the finest Italian masters in the 15th century, which resulted in the proliferation of Cinquecento monuments at the court of Ivan III (e.g., the Palace of Facets). Neither Aloisio the New nor any other major Italian master who worked in 16th-century Russia came here from Poland, either. However, I'm afraid that its pointless to argue with the author of this article, who not only previously attempted to propagate "civilisatory mission" of Poland in Eastern Europe (a paraphrase for his country's imperial ambitions and attempts at colonization of East Slavs), but even gives credence to the fables about Ptolemy making use of Polish maps in the 2nd cent. AD. --Ghirla -трёп- 23:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally agree. The rulers of Vladimir and High Kings of Rus'ia turned Emperors were quite capable of forging direct links with Renaissance Italy, writing to the rulers of Venice, Milan and elsewhere, and bringing architects like Aristotile Fioravanti over. Moreover, Rus'ia itself had fine native architects, and was the inheritor of the traditions of the Kievan period, a period in which Rus'ia had some of the largest cities in Europe, while contemporary Poland, before it brought in German settlers to urbanize it, could boast little more than a series of fortified cragie lumps with some mud-huts around them. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Molobo, don't lie. Not a single comment you made was removed. You pasted the huge piece from an external web-site. I explained why this is not appropriate. And several people repeated that to you many times. Please reread what I said. I certainly preserved your link and I also read it. You can say something based on that link an no one will delete it. --Irpen 22:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: There were also important cultural effects'. Mongol domination retarded Russia's cultural development. It delayed for at least two centuries any contact between Russia and Europe, which was at that time the only fountain of progress and enlightenment. The Russian Middle Ages were barren of achievement in any field of creative endeavor, except perhaps that of icon painting, which reached high standards in the fifteenth century.
	 
Professor Gerhard Rempel at Western New England College
--Molobo 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, Molobo disagrees. He has posted his version of events on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, it's now in two different places. Perhaps Molobo could clean it up and add quotation marks. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Piotrus, while I don't agree with some of what you are saying I agree with your aproach. The POV that Poland was a civilizator of Russia does exist and can stay, when properly referenced. We will balance it with other views and will remove the tag. Some here just started removing tag to prove something. This was highly objectionable. --Irpen
The POV that Poland was a civilizator of Russia does exist
Well you can hardly argue it was otherwise-here is how Muscovy was seen in Polish culture:
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/903/233books.html
And there is no denying that Sarmatian literature takes a view of Muscovy that the Russians would dearly love to erase. To a Sarmatian, Muscovy had little to do with European civilization. It was a "rude and barbarous kingdom" to be viewed with pity rather than awe. Sarmatian attitude contrasts sharply with the "powerful brother" image the Russians have tried to build in Slavic countries in the nineteenth century, and also in the Soviet period.
--Molobo 23:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Good grief! - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? It's true - sad, but true. I doubt that Muscovites had a much better opinion of Poles than, neither. At that time stereotypes were the rule, rather than the exception - consider Icon Animorum of John Barclay (1582-1621).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No. Just shocked that Molobo would make it clear that he was quoting someone. :> - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The statement "Through this exchange of ideas Poland not only participated in major scientific and cultural developments but also propagated Western heritage and art among East Slavic nations, especially in Belorussia and Ukraine, from where they were transmitted to Muscovy, which was catching up with Europe in the aftermath of the Mongol invasion of Russia" only says that Poland "propagated" "western heritage and art"; this statement is actually true, the printing press might be an example, and the statement doesn't imply that Poland monopolized or nearly monopolized transmission of western culture. However, "catching up" with Europe is both POV and wrong, since 1) Russia is in Europe and 2) "catching up" presupposes a unilinear moral conceptualization of history (POV), and it is not exactly clear that a) Russia was more "backward" than western Europe (POV) or, if it was, to what extent this it was more backward than Poland. It's best to remove that statement, or alter it. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Really? Well, much as I trust your understanding of objectivity, no-one is going to take you at your word. Why is Rus'ia more backward than Ireland, southern Italy or Andalusia? Economically, it certainly isn't. Europe was a diverse place which included Russia and these places. I personally do not subscribe to the early EU idea that "Europe" just means France and Belgium, and neither I assume do you. Rus'ia was actually doing many things in advance of its time. The development of autocracy and removal of the second tier nobility in "Muscovite Russia" under Ivan III precociously foreshadowed similar trends in France and England; Russia was sending its European-technology conquistadores over the Urals and subduing large chunks of Asia at exactly the time other great European powers were doing the same, flooding western European courts with rare and expensive furs as diplomatic gifts. Russia's precocious urbanization meant that non-Russian Europe has never as a whole been more urbanized than Russia. If Russia was backward, then it was only compared with a select group of European regions (southern England, Ile de France, Low Countries, Rhineland, etc), not Europe as a whole. In any case, the concept of "backwardness" is itself inherently POV; if you don't think so, then maybe you'd like to add "In recent times, backward Poland has been subjected to varying influences from the superior West" to the Poland article. No? Might be true in many minds, but it's POV, isn't it? - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I merely pointed out that medieval Russia was significantly more urban than Poland, which I'm sure you'd not disagree with; but this is no comment about backwardness in general, but a rejoinder to the idea of a Polish civilizing mission in Russia, which doesn't exist in the article. Of course, I'd never put such POVishness in articles. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

text: In 1200, Kiev had a population of 50,000 people, Novgorod and Chernigov both had around 30,000 people (Martin, Medieval Russia, p. 61). By comparison, in England in twelfth century, where urbanization was as advanced as anywhere in Europe north of the Mediterranean, London  had around 12,000 inhabitants, and England's second city, Winchester, about 5,000. (Bartlett, England Under the Norman and Angevin Kings, p. 332 ). Scotland, a land which shared the urban experience of Poland in the period (see Bartlett, Making of Europe), the largest "city" had around 1,000 inhabitants. The idea that Rus'ia was backward in the high middle ages compared with anywhere else in Europe (with the sole exception of Constantinople) doesn't really cut much ice. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 01:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Piotrus, I agged a POV tag not two days, but just several hours ago simply to stop the revert war, hoping that the warriors would accept to leave the article in the opponent's version if the tag is applied. The discussion is ongoing. Let's work the solution out and wait until all of those involved who want to say something do that. A reasonable amount of time, I think, is at least a couple of days. Warrantless tagging can be undone on the spot, but here the objections are clearly stated. Tag stopped the edit war and is a lesser evil. --Irpen 00:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I am in no hurry to remove the tag - you are right it tends to motivate people to fix things (including many we may not have noticed yet). So, besides Calgacus comments on my recent addition, are there any things that should be fixed?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 05:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As there are no other comments or edits, I tried my best to fix the article. Is this better?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV tag

message: #The article does not say anything about the "barbarism" of Muscovy (this is just an ill phantasy of Ghirla).
#It does not not assert that Eastern Europe did not have its own cultural tradition. (So the comment of ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ about the cultural traditions of Kievan Rus is correct, but it has nothing to do to what is said in the article).
What the article says is that there was an influence of West-European cultural developments on Eastern Europe, which is just a fact. No serious researcher would deny it.
#It does not say that Poland was the only way of the  cultural exchange. There were also direct contacts mentioned by Ghirla. But the article does not deny their existence.
If you would like keep the tag, please explain your objections and cite the corresponding fragments of the  article text. Your own phantasy is not the reason to tag the article.--AndriyK 09:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's bring our discussion to the point

message: I agree with Cranach, but de Vries WAS NOT a renaissance painter. He established manierism in Gdańsk.
I think Michael Lancz von Kitzingen in Kraków and Martin Schoninck in Gdańsk match perfectly.
There schould also be stated in a different sentense that Cranach and Durer influenced polish renaissance painting in the 1 half of the XVIth century, despite they never came to Poland, only their work was commisioned by poles.217.172.234.156 23:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hans Vredeman de Vries

message: "Characteristic laicization of life in Renaissance and reformation gave only minor development of sacral art."
This statement is false. Rennaissance gave great developement of sacral art in Poland, in fact it was a period of rebirth of religious art. The Myth of lay renassaince was destroyed by historians of art in the late 50'.
Reformation was a religous movement, that spread in northern Poland from about 1525, so you can't say of a minor developement of religious art because of it.217.172.234.156 23:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second period 

message: I've placed the term "Renesans" before "Odrodzenie". The reason is that in contemporary Polish scholarship the French like version "Renesans" has gained wider acceptance, e.g. the main university handbook by Jerzy Ziomek is entitled "Renesans". The "Odrodzenie" being itself a calque of the French term is also acceptable, but it seems a bit obsolete: you can hardly hear anyone talking about his "Odrodzenie's exam results" here in Poland. Polish Language Dictionary defines "Odrodzenie" as "the restitution of the former values" primarily: http://sjp.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=odrodzenie . Having pointed all this above I believe that it could stay. Kameal (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the name of the period used in Polish 

message: The following sentences were lifted from this website or are very close to it, please address. , which describes itself as based on this printed source: Polish Literature from the Middle Ages to the End of the Eighteenth Century. A Bilingual Anthology, by Michael J. Mikoś, Warsaw: Constans, 1999. The Renaissance belief in the dignity of man and power of his reason found a fertile ground in Poland. Members of Polish intellectual elite, like Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski, Johannes Dantiscus or Jan Łaski maintained contacts with leading European luminaries, including Thomas More, Erasmus and Philip Melanchthon. The portraitists left behind a splendid pictorial gallery of the noble and the wealthy, capturing characteristic features and social position of each person. The center of musical culture was the royal residence in Cracow. The finest works of the period include vocal and instrumental compositions, dances, organ and polyphonic music as well as solemn oratorios and masses. The Tablature, compiled in 1540 b Jan of Lublin, was an extensive collection of all known European organ compositions. Especially popular were compositions for organ and the lute. In 1578, chancellor Jan Zamoyski conceived a bold plan of building the ideal Renaissance city, and he sponsored the creation of Zamość, which quickly became an important administrative, commercial and educational city in Renaissance Poland. Novickas (talk) 15:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  16:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyvio problems

message: Failed, due to insufficient referencing (many unref paras) and poor structure (overview section is bad style, that's what lead is for). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class review for WP:POLAND