Talk:Ptolemy (disambiguation)

message: The article page for Ptolemy (disambiguation) was rewritten as a disambiguation page after material was split off by moving it to Ptolemy (name). The talk page for the article page was left here. For the earlier edit history of the article page before the split, please see the edit history at Ptolemy (name). Also, see the discussion and comments on this talk page, some of which predate the move. The move took place on 2nd April 2006. Carcharoth 15:32, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: This page started as a disambiguation page, and has recently outgrown its disambiguation status. A lot of the extraneous material will be moved to another page, but discussion is (or will be) ongoing at the talk page of Wikipedia:Disambiguation and other places as I want to clarify and discuss a few things before I (or others) make changes. I will add links to the discussions. I would be grateful if people could wait a few days until the discussions reach some sort of conclusions. Carcharoth 15:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History of the page

message: This editing history summary concerns work I did on Ptolemy (disambiguation). This started when I realised that Ptolemaic redirected to Ptolemaic dynasty, as seen here (27/09/2003). This rang a warning bell in my mind, as I realised that many people would link Ptolemiac in articles referring to Claudius Ptolemaeus, the famous astronomer of the 2nd century AD, not the Egyptian ruling dynasty (of Macedonian origin) of the 3rd to 1st centuries BC. Clicking on "What links here" confirmed my fears. I eventually got round to tidying up those links and redid Ptolemaic as a disambiguation page (24/03/2006). While changing those links, I had got interested in the history of the Ptolemies, and the confusing tangle of Ptolemies in the Ptolemaic dynasty. I then gradually started tidying up the disambiguation page by adding descriptions to help people find the Ptolemy they needed. Previously, a reader had to click back and forth between different Ptolemies, and try and mentally keep track of where and when these Ptolemies existed. I also expanded the list and organised it into mostly historical sections. Over the course of a few days, Ptolemy (disambiguation) went from this (25/03/2006) to this (28/02/2006). During the course of this work I had been delving deeper and deeper into the history of the Ptolemies (see here for 'The House of Ptolemy' by Edwyn Bevan, an enthralling history of the Ptolemies). At some point I also tidied up the disambiguation page at Ptolemais.
The reorganisation of Ptolemy (disambiguation) into historical sections had made me realise that there was a narrative thread here, one that spanned over 2000 years of history. This focused my interest on the etymology of the name Ptolemy, to add to the history of the people bearing the name, and how the name has come to be used in today's world. This accounts for the addition of the etymological section ranging across several languages. By the time of this version (29/03/2006), my earlier fears that the page was no longer a disambiguation page were well and truly confirmed!
At this point, I initiated discussions at various places in Wikipedia, to add to the discussions I had already started at places like the Help Desk and the Reference Desk. Here, I provide links to some of these discussions (some discussions may have since been archived, and talk page discussions have not been refactored):
*Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Ptolemies... - appeal for more examples of Ptolemies.
*Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Etymology_of_Greek_Ptolemaios_and_Italian_Tolomeo - asking about the etymology.
*Wikipedia:Help_desk#Name_etymologies/histories_on_Wikipedia - asking for advice on what to do with Ptolemy (disambiguation), which was getting out of control. No authoritative advice, but suggestions led me to look at similar disambiguation pages.
*Wikipedia:Help_desk#Disambiguation_page_styles - another Help Desk request for advice after looking at other name disambiguation pages. Response led me to the disambiguation Manual of Style.
*Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#Disambiguation_page_styles_for_people - repeat of question from the Help Desk, posted at the Wikiproject Biography talk page - no response as of 29/03/2006.
*Category_talk:Lists_of_ambiguous_human_names - repeat of question from the Help Desk, posted at the talk page for the category for ambiguous human names. Advice there confirmed my thought that Ptolemy (disambiguation) should be reduced back to an organised list, after moving material to Ptolemy (name). Example of how to do this split was given for Robert (name), which was split off from Robert.
*User_talk:Carcharoth#Ptolemy - User:Macrakis points out that Ptolemy (disambiguation) includes more information that is needed.
*Talk:Ptolemy (disambiguation) - page history summaries, and discussions, on the talk page for Ptolemy (disambiguation).
I then spent some time browsing through the Manual of Style (disambiguation pages), and the talk pages there and at Wikipedia:Disambiguation. I then posted this summary at the Ptolemy (disambiguation) talk page. I intend to continue the current discussions and, if needed, start discussions at the Wikipedia Disambiguation talk page. Eventually, after taking advice and discussing the best way to organise the material, the split to Ptolemy (name) will take place.
Links to new discussions will also be added here. Carcharoth 23:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Creating an article from a disambiguation page

message: Congratulations on the work here. It demonstrates a pleasing commitment to scholarship. In effect, you have created a meta-data page and, by virtue of your labour, you have exceeded the normal bounds of dab. Personally, I quite like the page as it stands but... The issue is whether this is the most appropriate mechanism for achieving the desired result which is a communication of the available content to the reader. For example, an alternative approach would be to create an infobox which is inserted on all the "regnal" pages and which lists the Ptolemys in sequence. It is not actually necessary to have a complete list here. One might simply signal a link to the first in line, and then leave it to the reader to navigate from there. This is a judgment about efficiency v scholarship. As it stands, the meta-listing is a little long but comprehensive and pleasingly serendipitous (not to say fascinating). Indeed, I might be tempted to abandon the idea of trying to formalise this as an eliptical dab page. Treat it like any other meta-data page which introduces each sub-topic and then links to the relevant main page. David91 03:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the comments and advice. I think I understand what you mean by a "meta-data" page and an "infobox" (though I would appreciate links and examples if you have them). I don't understand what you mean by an "elliptical dab" page though. Carcharoth 11:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Random thoughts

message: How does this proposal sound?
*Move this page to Ptolemy (name).
*Edit the resulting redirect page at Ptolemy (disambiguation) to be a disambiguation page with just four entries: Ptolemaic dynasty; Ptolemy I Soter; Claudius Ptolemaeus; and Ptolemy (name).
Then I could go on expanding the page at Ptolemy (name)?
The reasoning behind this is that most people only want to disambiguate between references to the Ptolemaic dynasty and references to Ptolemy the astronomer. Only a small number of people will want to refer to the other Ptolemies. Does this sould like a good way to go about restoring this page to a more usable disambiguation status, while preserving this "meta-data" page at Ptolemy (name), which would also act as a sort of subdisambiguation page? Carcharoth 11:52, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds fine to me. I think it would be a great shame to break all this up. I will run up a sample infobox for you so that you can use it as a model in the future. David91 16:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sample info box is at Template:Ptol. Thanks, David! Carcharoth 13:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about a subdisambiguation page? 

message: The content of this page has been moved to Ptolemy (name). The following tasks still remain to be done:
*Say where to find the earlier history of the Ptolemy (disambiguation) page. (DONE)
*Copy relevant comments from this talk page to the talk page of Ptolemy (name) - making clear that the edit history is here, but that in any case the edit history is seen by the timestamps. (DONE)
*Change Ptolemy (disambiguation) from a redirect back to a disambiguation page, as discussed above. (DONE)
*Check "What links here" for both articles. (DONE)
*Sort categories for both articles. (DONE)
*Sort interwiki links for both articles. (PENDING)
*Update links to history pages. (NOT NEEDED)
Carcharoth 15:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page moved to Ptolemy (name) 

message: (The following two comments were moved to this section Carcharoth 14:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How comprehensive should the disambiguation page be?

message: Is now a dab page, and some of the ptolemy articles link to it, and some here. If you are going to take out this redirect, please prepare a full dab page elsewhere and cut and paste it here. There should be only one dab for a given name. Septentrionalis 05:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The page Ptolemy (name) might look like a dab page, and indeed it originally resided here. But the whole point of moving the material was because it was felt that Ptolemy (name) was a better title for the material (which no longer felt like a true dab page), and that this page should be reverted to a 'cleaner' looking dab page. In my opinion, Ptolemy (disambiguation) should be just a list, while Ptolemy (name) should be a history of the name Ptolemy. The trouble is that there would be a lot of duplication of material between the two. Should the material be duplicated across the two articles, or is there a more elegant way to present this? Maybe the problem is that the Ptolemy (name) page is still too much like a list, and not enough like a history? Carcharoth 09:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: =[[Ptolemy (name)]]

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ptolemy which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 09:15, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress