Talk:Greek genocide/Archive 1

message: Can somebody pls back this accusation up?? If not I am going to take it out.. Look people, it is one thing to talk about the past and analyze it, but it is one thing to just fuel ethnic-hatred.. It has been needing a citation for months..
These are serious allegations.. Turkish and Greek people are very close, let's not dwell on the sad moments of our history.. Calling each other child-killers, baby-killers is not going to get anybody anywhere, at least not in Wikipedia.
And let's not forget Wikipedia is not for original research, as was mentioned below... Baristarim 16:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Light Death'

message: The "Arguments against" section of the article says:
:A letter was submitted to The United Nations Commission on Human Rights by the "International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples" to request such recognition in 1998 but so far it has not been granted.
However, the "Official recognition" section says:
:The United Nations Commission on Human Rights has recognized this genocide as such in 1998.
Which one is true? Here is the PDF. To me it doesn't look like a letter, but an offical UN document. Correct me if I'm wrong. —Khoikhoi
::I think this is what you're looking for. --Telex 01:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The link you gave me doesn't work. :( —Khoikhoi 01:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure - it works for me :-/ --Telex 01:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well just go to  and serch for pontian genocide. The above link works for me though. --Telex 01:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I got it to work. :) It's the exact same PDF as the one I linked in the References section. Anyways, what do you think about my initial comment? —Khoikhoi 01:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text:  ">[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoikhoi] wrote: Which one is true? Here is the PDF. To me it doesn't look like a letter, but an offical UN document. Correct me if I'm wrong. 
The U.N. document referenced in the article starts with the following statement: The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1296 (XLIV)  Basically the document implies no endorsement of the statement's contents.  It just acknowledges the receipt of the statement from a NGO called International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP). There has never been a vote on the U.N. floor to approve a resolution on this issue.  Therefore, the following statement in this Wikipedia article "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights has recognized this genocide as such in 1998." is a gross misstatement.  The absence of any follow-up on the alleged Pontian genocide by the U.N. commission on Human Rights since 1998 (8 years) indicates that this issue has not been taken seriously.  I propose that the statement "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights has recognized this genocide as such in 1998." be removed from this Wikipedia article.  There is no such recognition. ---Vikiyazar 15:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you very much for your reply. I'll contact some other users and then we can delete it. Cheers. —Khoikhoi 03:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've decided to remove it. —Khoikhoi 03:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: I provide the following sources for further investigation on the issue:
UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2004/SR.16, 30 March 2004, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Sixtieth session, Held at the Palais des Nations, Geneva, on Tuesday, 23 March 2004, at 10 a.m., Chairperson: Mr. SMITH (Australia) ():
:7. Ms. GRAF (International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples) said that the Pontians, a minority from a historical settlement in northern Turkey, were suffering discrimination at the hands of the Turkish authorities. Most Pontians were Muslims and while they all felt great attachment to their language, ancient Greek, it had been banned in Turkish schools. Pontian families with relatives living in Europe were often intimidated by the police, sometimes through the use of forged evidence of collaboration with Kurdish guerrilla groups. Those with family connections in Greece were particularly vulnerable, as illustrated by the case of Fethi Gultepe, who had been arrested while travelling via Istanbul to visit his family, and accused of attempting to establish a Pontian State. The Special Rapporteur on racism should consider that case and the plight of the Pontians in general.
UNITED NATIONS, Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/2002/NGO/30, 25 January 2002, COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, Fifty-eighth session, Item 11 (c) of the provisional agenda, CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE QUESTIONS OF: FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION
Written statement* submitted by the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP), a non-governmental organizations in special consultative status ()
:Under this agenda item, the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP) would like to bring before the Commission on Human Rights the case of the Pontians, living in the historic region of Pontos, from Sinope (Sinop) to Trapezous (Trabzon) now in Turkey. Our concern is about the restrictions to their freedom of expression showing their cultural identity formed over thousands of years.
:The present communication refers to the part of the Pontian people who remained in their historic territories, and elsewhere in Turkey
:Historical Background
:The presence of the Pontians is traced back in the 8th century B.C., before the emergence of the Pontian Kingdom in the North Coast of Asia Minor. Indeed, Pontian culture roots are to be found in their history, notably during the classical era (with philosophers and historians such as Diogenes, Strabon, etc.) of the Hellenistic period and then in the Byzantine epoch.
:After the Ottoman conquest in the middle of the 15th century their living conditions, their unity and communal life as a Christian people, was deeply affected by the system of the Ottoman power and administration, based on the distinction between Muslims and non-Mulims. In the 19th century, due to the Ottoman-Russian wars, the Pontians were subjected to several exoduses. The systematic elimination of the Christian Pontians through mass murder and ethnic cleansing took place in the first quarter of the 20th century and especially between 1916 and 1923, as part of a longstanding policy of thorough turkization of the whole Asia Minor.
:The Pontians who could remain in Pontos had become Muslims or were compelled to islamization, thus escaping destruction and dispersion. It is known that the population exchange according to the Lausanne Treaty (1923) between Greece and Turkey was defined on the basis of religion and not on the basis of the ethnic identity of the populations of both sides. The Pontians who took refuge in the Caucausus and in Russia were subjected to further exoduses within the Soviet Union. Now, apart from Greece, a sizable Pontian diaspora is found in USA, Europe, Australia and elsewhere.
:An ancient culture in jeopardy of survival
:Even though the islamized Pontians of Pontos were for decades deprived of the right to communicate with the Pontians of Greece and of the countries of the ex-Soviet Union, and even though they suffered, for decades systematic policies of disarticulation of their communities, they continue to insist on their particular Pontian identity. "We are Pontians", they declare still today. Especially in the last decades this sense of a particular identity is increasing and is being coupled with actions of intellectual and cultural enhancing. However, even careful attempts of the new Pontian intellectuals to express verbally or in writing the history, the cultural identity of this people, are facing harsh measures by the Turkish authorities. During the last years the lives of the Pontian intellectuals who dare to express their views are reliably reported to be threatened, some of them with death. This repression is accompanied by pseudo-scientific attempts to distort the three thousand year-old rich history of this people and of this area. Those attempts are made by Turkish propagandists and by so-called professors. The official discourse claims that this historic people is of Turkish descent. A typical example of this conduct of the authorities is a television series performed some time ago in Trapezous, in which a retired officer of the Turkish army and a would-be professor hammered on the one hand, the Turkish descent of the Pontians and on the other, uttered threats towards the Pontians who claim the right to keep contacts with Pontians in Greece. Moreover, Pontian travelers from Greece during their visits in Pontos, are subjected to strict control and surveillance by the Turkish authorities.
:Repressive measures endanger language
:It appears that a sizeable part of the islamized Pontians, especially the communities of Trapezous, Tonia, Ophe, Sourmena (Surmene), Matsouka (Macka) as well as those of the peripheral municipalities of Contantinople (Istanbul) have preserved intact their Pontian language. Thus, in those areas, the language which is known to be the closest to the ancient Greek is kept alive. In fact, this language is today illegal in Pontos and in Turkey. Of course there is no school where the Pontians could learn, cultivate and develop their language. The existing schools are Turkish. The young Pontian boys and girls - especially those from the inland - due to the fact that their families cling to their own language and do not know Turkish, have their first contact with this language in the Turkish schools and are forced to learn it with harsh educational methods. It is reported that in the elementary schools there exists a network of young student-informers in charge of denouncing to their teachers the Pontian pupils speaking between themselves their own language, who are then taken up by their teachers or even the police with brutal methods of persuasion. In the high schools, the task of terrorization is apparently devoted to racist and fascist groups, inter alia the "Grey Wolves". Those educational conditions exclude the Pontian students from university and higher studies. Students of Pontian descent who try to express their Pontian conscience and culture through periodicals run a risk of being sentenced to jail by the Turkish authorities.
:The Turkish state through policies stemming from its constitutional and legal framework together with its authoritarian structures, eliminates the words Pontos and Pontians, and represses individual and collective attempts of peaceful expression of the thought and conscience of the Pontian identity.
:Expression of the Pontian culture must be saved 
:Describing this situation , the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples (LIDLIP) would like to insist on the lack of freedom of expression of a particular people, the Pontians in present-day Turkey. This situation ought to be known by the international community. Further, interventions towards its alleviation is a step for safeguarding a living culture which has enriched mankind.
Embassy of Greece - Press Office:
:...In his address, Karamanlis called the massacre of the Pontians a 'dark page" in the history of humanity.
:He criticized the Greek State for not taking an initiative for international recognition of the sacrifice of the Pontians, and called on Turkey to realize that if it wished to become a member of the European Union, it must stop threatening and making claims on its neighbors and stop insulting international organizations.
:A peaceful protest march was also staged by Greek-Australians to the Turkish Consulate in Melbourne, where they posted a resolution condemning the Pontian genocide and reaffirming their determination to continue their efforts for its recognition.
So, from the last one, I guess it hasn't been recognised yet, but there are efforts toward that direction...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Oh my God, how did you come up with such an inflated number?  Is there any limit to one's imagination?  What is the basis for this number?  You just can't manufacture historical facts like that.  It is doubtful that 1 million Greeks ever existed in Pontus in any period of history.  The article on Pontic Greeks claims that there are more than 2 million Pontic Greeks living in the world today.  This number boggles my mind and it can't be true.  1 million Pontian Greeks killed and still 2 million Pontian Greeks living in the World today????  Considering the fact that the entire population of the Ottoman Empire at the turn of the century was 40 million people (including Muslims and Christians) and that Greeks didn't even constitute the majority of the Black Sea population, all these numbers about the Pontian Greeks living in the World today and those that were killed sound utterly fantastic to me.
I am also quite offended that the paragraph that I added to the Pontian Greek Genocide article called "Arguments Against" was deleted by the same user with an IP number of  87.203.236.72  Clearly this person wants to dictate his opinions to Wikipedia by brute force regardless of the truth.  I will make one more attempt to reinstate the version by Khoikhoi dated 04:25, 25 May 2006.  If the User:87.203.236.72  deletes that version and reinstates his imaginary 1 million number, I refuse to play this silly game.  He can have his way.  In the meantime, the victim is Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia.  Let's not allow Wikipedia to be turned into a political battleground.  ---Vikiyazar 15:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to that version (with the data at hand). I will help you defend it, unless someone provides sources...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 15:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the number was more like 350,000. --Telex 15:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, me too, but 300.000 is not far off. Now, if you cite this, however...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 16:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 1 million is definitely an exaggerated figure, my sources say that some 1,3 million was deported and some 300-360,000 was killed in the process. This is a very good article, I was thinking to start it myself. We also need to work on the Pontic Greeks article which is a miserable condition. I think the same anon is edit-warring in "Greco-Turkish war" and refuses to accept the sources. Miskin 16:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: About the disputes over population figures (both concerning the genocide and the number of the pontians today): circa 350,000 is what all the reliable sources say. i've never came across a source claiming 1 million or something close to that number. unless such a figure is sourced, it cannot be added here, according to the wikipedia policy and historic facts. perhaps 1 mil was their number prior to the genocide (the numbers i've seen are talking about 7-800,000. about the number of the pontians today, 2 millions should not surprise anyone... After the Lauzanne Treaty, Greece accepted about 1,5 mil refugees, many of whom (not the majority, of course) were greek pontians. the vast majority of the greek diaspora in the countries of the former USSR as pontian greeks (who fled Pontus in varous waves after ottoman conquest). if we also consider the fact that there have been many mixed marriages between pontians and other greeks, this number seems more than accurate! not to forget that pontians also migratted in other countries (along with other greeks), notably germany, usa, australia. (i am writting all these in order to prevent any change of that number in Pontian Greeks, under the claim that it is utterly fantastic. --Hectorian 00:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1 million Pontian Greeks killed???? 

message: For the simple reason that no one but the Greek parliament seems to recognise it as genocide. A more acceptable name is needed for this article. --A.Garnet 16:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And your proposal would be? (bear in mind that a Google test would have to be conducted) --Telex 16:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We'll see about that Garnet. Leave the tag though for the time being, until of course I provide the sources. Miskin 16:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We know there are sources for this title - the matter is to do with POVs. Some people don't think this is a case of genocide, and it's their right. Garnet proposes renaming the article to "something", but that's no good - to where do you want it renamed? Pontian Massacre perhaps? --Telex 16:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That test means nothing Telex. You will get more results for "Turkish Cypriot genocide" than you will for "Turkish Cypriot massacres", doesnt justify the former. Almost all the results for "Pontian Greek genocide" are either on Greek websites, or posted by Greeks - and to be fair, it returns only 590 results. "The Holocaust" returns 51,800,000, "Armenian genocide" returns "1,590,000" - I hope you can see the insignificance of 590 google results. --A.Garnet 17:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Straw man - this is a relatively obscure topic, and I'm sure that "genocide" would outweigh whatever you have in mind. --Telex 18:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: So what are you proposing? --Telex 17:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I propose Pontian ethnic cleansing so that we also include the deported alternative. It doesn't include genocide, although it is one alternative method for cleansing. Right?  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 17:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Mysterious disappearances: the Pontian Greeks of Anatolia? --Telex 17:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: What academic basis? Armenians can always hit back that they have a load of academics and international organisations to support their cause, but i cannot see anywhere near the same amount of support for this alleged genocide. Where can you refer me to which suggests the majority of impartial scholars support your argument that Pontians suffered a genocide? --A.Garnet 17:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, thats a quote from a book, but again can you point me to anywhere which suggests there is an academic consensus that Greeks suffered genocide - enough to justify the title of this article? Are there any other encylopedias which carry the same title? --A.Garnet 17:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A.Garnet, what do you want to rename it to? Make a proposal - I prefer fix attempts over complaining. Propose a different title - you're the one wanting to change it. --Telex 18:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not complaining Telex. I dont know what else we can name it, but if your going to name it genocide, and argue it a definiteve case of genocide as this article attempts to do, then you better have some solid academic foundation to base it on which i dont believe exists. Just look at the article, theres not a single citation referring to the events itself. --A.Garnet 18:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Please, dont turn this into a sentimental issue. I'm already aware that the majority of people contributing to this article are Greek, and i would ask you take a more neutral stance than accuse people who question it as being disrespectful. Authors dont have to lie, but they can represent views which are not necessarily held by the majority. Can you point me to any books by non-partisan historians which specifically cover this event on its own? --A.Garnet 20:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know that this type of work doesn't exist, since it is already mentioned above. This is exactly the proof of why this article should be named as such. Everybody recognises as a genocide which is hasn't received the proper attention. Miskin 21:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought you told me this topic had a strong academic basis, and now your telling me there is not one book devoted to the event?  --A.Garnet 21:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not an English source that is. There's weren't any english sources specifically devoted to the Armenian genocide either before the 1960s either. That doesn't mean that it was not acknowledged. What's your argument? That because there is no english source specifically devoted to it we don't have the right to name the article like this? I suppose we'd have to cut down some good 1/4 of wikipedia's articles then. Miskin 22:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thats exactly what i'm saying. Not just English, but any language for that matter except Greek. It seems the only country to recognise it is Greece, the only people who write about it are Greeks, and the people writing this article are Greeks. That is why we ask for non-partisan sources so we do not promote one point of view. Your justification for this article is to rectify the lack of academic support - this is called original research and is strictly forbidden from Wikipedia, especially concerning an article likes this. --A.Garnet 22:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia:No original research --A.Garnet 22:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No you havent proved it. We can argue this all night, but the fact remains this topic lacks academic and international support, you may have a few people who say the word "Greek genocide", but you cannot cite one non-partisan book specifically covering this subject matter, and as such this article has to be renamed. --A.Garnet 22:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added disputed tag 

message: I think one way we can make the article more neutral, particularly in the "Background" section, is instead of presenting the information at 100% absolute facts, we can say "according to John Smith, one of the methods was to..." Also the "Arguments against" section needs sources as well. —Khoikhoi 01:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me. but maybe we should not talk like this way in all the article, but only concerning the disputed facts. some facts are undisputable. --Hectorian 01:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. I'm guessing this article shouldn't have pictures, right? —Khoikhoi 01:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but i fail to see what is undisputable considering not one academic source has been cited for this article - undisputable according to whom exactly? Khoikoi, considering the effort so often put into neutralising articles relating to Turkey, i am surprised you do not even question the notability of this articles title, especially when one of its contributors admits there is not one English related work to its name. --A.Garnet 01:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the fact that it's something recognized by at least one country and several sub-national entities makes the term notable, but it's just not clear if it's necessarily NPOV or not. When I first came across the article, it looked like this. It was clearly biased. The thing is, now that we have a section that provides the Turkish point of view, I think it's a lot better. You or Vikiyazar may not see the "Background" section to be the "truth", but I'm sure that the Greek anon sees it the other way around. I'm not saying that you guys are his/her counterparts or anything, what I'm trying to say is that "Pontian Greek Genocide" is the most common term to describe the events, regardless of it's accuracy or not. I was thinking of adding "alleged genocide" in the article, but that might get people confused. Hmmm, I hope you can make some sense out of my rambling. —Khoikhoi 01:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the most common term among Greeks Khoikoi, and a subject which lacks any academic debate. This will make both the for and against argument original research. Its like me creating an article entitled "Turkish Cypriot genocide", a position held by many Turkish Cypriots and even backed by a British author. This is a minority view, and one that has no academic debate to it, so what sources would Greek Cypriots use to defend themselves? Do you understand what i'm saying? There is not enough discussion on the subject to try and portray the article as a debate. I would suggest Pontian casualties of World War I and state within it that The Greek government recognises the event as genocide. That way we are bound to have more credible sources discussing the fate of the Greeks than you will of sources claiming it to be genocide. --A.Garnet 02:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I understand what you're saying now. I could live with Pontian Greek casualties during World War I, as by checking the Google hits, all the sources I could find were Greek. I'll look more into it, I did manage to find a reference on Google books, the author doesn't appear to be Greek, but then again, it's not really academic. I sometimes wish we had a time machine to see what really happened, but I guess we must work with what he have. —Khoikhoi 02:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh no! there should be pictures! even if someone wil dispute what they present. in fact, the turks dispute the term 'genocide'. i do not think they dispute that people died...:/ --Hectorian 01:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A.Garnet, people died in Pontus, as the difference in population figures of the ottoman census proves, as the refugees in russia and greece say, etc. what exactly do u dispute? only the title? the genocide has been recognised by greece and 2 States. if u think this is not enough, first u have to change TRNC's title, cause it is recognised only by turkey as such... --Hectorian 01:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hector, how many people died does not matter. What matters is unanimous academic support which would support your position, otherwise you are just placing your own interpretations of events i.e. original research. Are you seriously suggesting Greece, and American states populated by Greeks are neutral sources proving this titles worth? As for the TRNC, comparing it with this is like chalk and cheese. TRNC is not an academic position or thesis, and doesnt need academic support to make it notable. It exists and is therefore notable. --A.Garnet 01:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These events existed and are also notable. btw, how are these events seen in turkey? as war fatalities, or as a greek tale? (just curious to see if it is generally accepted that people died). note that most greeks in the states live in Chicago and NY, so i guess if it was cause of us, Illinois and NYState would be the first to recongise it (NY's governor, George Pataki, has made some moves to this direction). --Hectorian 02:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, i see no reason for the title to be changed... the Armenian Genocide is not recognised by all countries, but the article is titled this way. Pictures exist in similar articles (about genocides or massacres, if some prefer to call them) although many deny that such events really took place. i do not see it as a matter of propaganda, but as a historic issue. --Hectorian 02:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Armenian Genocide is recognized by 21 countries, this one is recognized by 1. As for the pictures, remember the whole conflict with User:Jeune Zuercher and Metb82? I could just as easily add these pictures to articles if I want to, but as I said, we shouldn't try to sway the reader into one POV or the other. —Khoikhoi 02:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hector, the Armenians can cite countless authors and organisations, that is why Turkey faces so much pressure from them. Greece can cite none. --A.Garnet 02:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, I just realized that "Pontian Greek Genocide" gets 642 Google hits, while "Pontian Genocide" gets 18,200. —Khoikhoi 02:14, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know if the Turks can object that or not, but when the Greeks say 'Pontian', they simply mean 'Greek Pontian', i.e. a greek from pontus. (in turkey the word 'Pontus' is not in use). --Hectorian 02:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you find a reputable, published, non-partisan source among those 18,000, let me know. --A.Garnet 02:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What do contributors here think of the title Pontian Greek casualties during World War I? --A.Garnet 13:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that this title doesn't fit, cause the events extend after 1918 (official end of WWI) --Hectorian 13:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think arguing with you is pointless. --A.Garnet 14:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  An idea 

message: "They were held to concentration camps and amongst the survivors was the well known writer Elias Venezis, who later described the situation in his work the Number 31328 (Το Νούμερο 31328)."From what I know Venezis was not a pontian- he was from the aegean coast of Minor Asia.--Greece666 23:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But what u 'probably' do not know, is that he was held in a concentration camp in eastern anatolia (i.e. where Pontus geographically is located). --Hectorian 02:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about Greeks "living in the Black Sea province of Pontus". Venezis simply was not one of them.--Greece666 03:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But he wrote about these events. Thus he should be included. --Hectorian 03:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venezis 

message: According to the Wikipedia article Mithridates VI of Pontus, the history of Pontus started out by another genocide, that of the Romans by Greeks in the first century B.C.  According to the same article, 100,000 Romans living in Anatolia was massacred by Mithridates VI, the Pontus Greek king.  Although the word "massacre" was used in that article, instead of "genocide", I think the term "genocide" is no less fitting for this incident than the Pontian Greek Genocide.  The numbers are in the same ballpark.  The goal was the same, ethnic cleansing of the Romans by the Greeks from Anatolia.  When we do a google search for Pontian Genocide, perhaps we should be more careful.  There is another Pontian Genocide.  This time the perpetrators were Greek.  I also suggest that racist comments about how Turks are likely to commit the Pontian genocide, because they committed the Armenian Genocide, should be avoided because we have a record of Greeks committing a similar scale genocide against the Romans in history.  Sure, it was almost 2000 years earlier but it was a genocide regardless.  ---Vikiyazar 15:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally irrelevant with the article. it could be called (if it ever happened) 'Anatolian Roman Genocide'. surprisingly enough,  noone talks about it, and this makes me wonder that u have read a really biased source... In addition, any possible genocide by the greeks against the romans (and vice versa) has absolutely nothing to do with the genocide of the pontian greeks by the turks. instead of going back 2,000 anf more years in history, u should stick to what happened the past century... --Hectorian 16:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What on earth does the Mithridatic war have to do with the Pontic genocide of the 20th century? Those are pretty desperate arguments, let alone original research. Miskin 16:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps cause noone so far bothered to write it... U know, many turkish users have said that the Greek wikipedia has not even exceed 10,000 articles... that it is still in an 'infant stage'... is that the only missing article from the greek wiki, or just the one u want to make a big deal of? --Hectorian 23:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Pontian Genocide 

message: After giving it some thought, I think I've finally come up with an idea for making the 1st paragraph NPOV:
The Pontian Greek Genocide is a term mainly used by Greeks to describe the events that occured from 1916 to 1919 in the Black Sea province of Pontus. After the 1922 Asia Minor Catastrophe, most of them fled to nearby Russia and eventually to Greece.
or:
The term Pontian Greek Genocide is mainly used by Greeks to describe the events that occured from 1916 to 1919 in the Black Sea province of Pontus. After the 1922 Asia Minor Catastrophe, most of them fled to nearby Russia and eventually to Greece.
What do you guys think? —Khoikhoi 06:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, the 353,000 number should fit in there somehow. —Khoikhoi 06:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't devoting an article to one viewpoint called POV pushing? If i created an article entitled Armenian relocation, and stated "Armenian relocation is a term used mainly by Turks to describe the events of 1915", would this be ok with you? --A.Garnet 20:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well i've tried to contact admins over this, but one was busy, and the other has not replied. Miskin, have you read the Killing Trap? I managed to track down the pages concerning the Greeks plight, and the author is quite explicit that Pontians and Greeks did not suffer a genocide. --A.Garnet 13:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've cited the killing trap above, you can see that the author explicitely claims that the treatment of Pontians was repeating the methods of the Armenian genocide. Where does the claim that the Pontians did not suffer a genocide? Can you please cite the paragraph? The author says "given the large number of surviving Greeks, especially relative to the small number of Armenian survivors, the massacres were apparently restricted to Pontus, Smyrna and selected other "sensitive" reasons". He does not question the number of Pontians killed not the act of genocide, which he compares it to the Armenian. He only points out that the Armenian genocide was at a much larger scale, something that nobody has ever challenged. Miskin 13:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What?! Have you read a complete different source? He is telling you genocide was not an option, that actions did not follow any possible intentions, that too many Greeks survived, and any massacres were too limited to be compared to the plight of Armenians. And from this, you tell me "he author explicitely claims that the treatment of Pontians was repeating the methods of the Armenian genocide" - Have you read a complete different source to me? I really cannot waste my time and energy on these arguments. Let just wait for an administrator. --A.Garnet 14:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not citing from memory - read here: p342 --A.Garnet 14:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because you seem to focus on one part, read both pages. Like i said, I wont waste my time and energy on arguing with you, because it is obvious you will disagree with whatever i say, so lets wait for an admin to get involved. --A.Garnet 14:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to neutralize the opening paragraph 

message: *"Finally we can sum up the overall nationalist genocide. It totals almost 880,000 Armenian and Greek deaths, as we can see from the table 10.1... Since the post-World War I years, few remember or write about the Greek genocide." R. J. Rummel's 'Death by government' (what I regard as my most credible source). Miskin 15:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we had this we'd probably have to go for something like Greek Genocide (Pontos). - FrancisTyers 15:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek genocide

message: *"Finally we can sum up the overall nationalist genocide. It totals almost 880,000 Armenian and Greek deaths, as we can see from the table 10.1... Since the post-World War I years, few remember or write about the Greek genocide." R. J. Rummel's 'Death by government' Miskin 15:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek Pontian Genocide

message: *"Under these conditions, genocide of the Ottoman Greeks was simply not a viable option. Many however, were massacred by the Turks" Killing Trap --A.Garnet 16:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pontian massacres 

message: Make discussion here. - FrancisTyers 15:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not us who decides whether this definition applies to Greeks. As i have said all along, we have to represent the academic opinion on the subject - and there are simply no non-Greek, non-partisan sources which cover a Pontian, or a Greek genocide, and i am talking about published books, journals, or unaffiliated organisations. All we seem to have is one source who uses the word "Greek genocide" to cover both Pontians and Aegean Greeks. Well you know, i could create many articles such as the Armenian relocation or Turkish Cypriot genocide based not on sentences, but on entire books, by western authors - yet i am entirely willing to accept that those articles would be completely POV, even if one author here or there covers it. And in this case, we dont even have works covering it. We have sentences here and there, which is why there is absoloutely no reference to this article in its present that, because there is nothing to reference from. Any article trying to portray the events as genocide will be original research. --A.Garnet 16:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: How come you excluded Telex's proposal for Mysterious disappearances: the Pontian Greeks of Anatolia? I mean, Yunan is the name Greeks have in the Arabic, Turkish, Israeli world. The name derives from "Ionas", which is how Greeks called themselves for living in Ionia. I don't see many of them around nowdays, but the name is still there, to remind us that UFOs abducted them in the 1920's... NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 21:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Something which never happened? This is the view promoted by BHRM .--Telex 21:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about those?  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 23:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Why did you qualify the source as POV? Someone asked for academic research which refers to the Pontian Genocide - and that's what I supplied. I added a description for non-German-speakers, but if that's the problem I'll delete it. --Simela 00:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please add the citations and quotes to the above subsections. - FrancisTyers · 09:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: They are not POV Simela. Turkey denies 3 genocides already, and apparently Turkish editors do as well, so you can't expect much neutrality from G. Garnet. Miskin 09:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it is you who does not read what i post! I have told you, there are plenty of sources which will write about an Armenian relocation, and there are plenty of books which will refute an Armenian genocide. These are entire books dedicated by western authors. Does this make it the majority position? No it does not. In this case, you do not even have one monograph dedicated in favour of your position, yet you continue to state one sentence by RJ Rummel as proof for the validity of this articles title. The other source you gave me (killing trap), proves the complete opposite of what you are saying, and says quite clearly, the Pontians and Greeks did not suffer genocide. Again I ask you, are there even any journal articles dedicated to this "genocide"? Are there any other encylopedia entries dedicated to this entry? You have the state of New Jersey who "recognises it", a state full of Greeks with governors pandering to their vote, and this is proof? --A.Garnet 21:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually Rummel devotes an entire chapter in the Greek genocide and explain that it's an event not well documented in English. He also includes tables and detailed data of victims, so I don't understand how this in your opinion comes down to "one sentece" (actually I do but that's a different story). You still tend to ignore the official recognition by the state of New Jersey. Is that also another sentence? You must work really hard to hide all those sentences on the 3 genocides Turkey is accused for. Miskin 13:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added an example for efforts being undertaken in Germany in the "Official recognition and general interest" section. Examples from other countries will follow. I told you the reason why there still aren't any monographs exclusively on the Pontian Genocide. The current academic discussion tends to examine the cases of Armenians, Greek Pontians and other minorities together, as the reason(s) for genocide were the same for all these population groups. A lot of work (examination of archival material etc.) which has already been done with reference to the Armenian genocide can be applied to the Pontian case (as for example the motives of the perpetrators, the Young Turks). There is not only the "one sentence" you continuously refer to. I've supplied some examples already, and as to historical sources there's a passage in Morgenthau I could cite - if this is acceptable to you.--Simela 03:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: The arguments against section doesn't really have any arguments against the genocide, is it supposed to? As such, I think it should be renamed, or changed to include any arguments against the genocide, if they exist. I have no knowledge of this stuff, I'm just cleaning up the prose. --Awiseman 07:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the problem i have warned about. The whole article has become original research, therefore there are hardly any sources able to refute the theses being proposed here, since there are hardly any that support it. It seems people have lost interest in having the article renamed. --A.Garnet 10:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No it has no arguments, the real name of the section is "How to hide a Turkish Genocide in 5 easy steps", this is why it must be removed. Miskin 13:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If there was a section called "Arguments against," then there are surely some arguments out there, right? Either rename the section or put them in it. This is supposed to be a balanced enyclopedia - if one side says there was a genocide and the other doesn't, the article should mention that. As of now, it doesn't really say much. --Awiseman 13:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If arguments for and against this exist, they should be noted. It can also be noted that the arguments are argued against by so-and-so. --Awiseman 21:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguments Against? 

message: What's that photo? The caption on here says it's of Elaziq, which is in eastern Turkey. What does the Greek on the photo say? --Awiseman 17:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says what the summary I gave says. I know Elazig is far from Pontus ;-) but that's (one of the places) where they were deported to; after all, this was a mass deportation/evacuation (whether it was to a concentration camp, I don't know; it doesn't say). --Telex 21:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, most in this photo are Armenians from Elaziq, there was also a significant Assyrian community there next to a Greek community, I don't have figures though. Fad (ix) 00:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's Armenians, it doesn't apply to this article, right? If it's Greeks, that should be noted in the caption, such as "Greeks from Pontus deported to Elazig in eastern Turkey." or whatever. --Awiseman 15:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's actually a hard one, it would help to know the year of this national geographic issue. The thing is that in places like Elazig you can not pinpoint Greeks alone, unless we are talking about a picture taken after the Armenians have been evacuated. But even if we document it, I think it'll be better to find a picture at the heartland of 'Pontus.' Fad (ix) 17:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about this one from Giresun? Beneath the picture it says Κάτοικοι της Κερασούντας δολοφονημένοι από τους Τούρκους, which meant inhabitants of Giresun murdered by the Turks (POV?). --Tēlex 17:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, the National Geographic date is  11/25. --Tēlex 17:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: What's to say? Beneath the photo on the picture, it says Μια πολυάριθμη ομάδα εξορίστων Ελλήνων από το Χαρπούτ (φωτ. The National Geographic Magazine, 11/25)., which translates to a large group of exiled Greeks from Kharput. At the page where I found it , in the caption it says Ελληνες εξόριστοι βαδίζοντες προς την εξορία και τον θάνατο., exiled Greeks walking to exile and death. The only reason I chose that picture is because it was attributed to the National Geographic Magazine. --Tēlex 17:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure we should include it then, as it doesn't say anything about Pontus in particular. --Awiseman 14:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo? 

message: Far from being neutral, mixing two different event (the general policy against the Greeks and what happened in Pontus), the subsequent dates, the ranges of casulties etc., this article should have been first worked before being created. Also, the title..., I don't have alternatives that I can think of, the reason being that this event is called by various names. I could work on this article, but from its current shape it should probably totally be rewritten. Fad (ix) 00:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you and A.Garnet could collaborate on such an effort, that would be ideal. El_C 00:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, why not. Fad (ix) 15:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd help, but it would only be superficial edits, not really my subject area to provide any meaningful content. If you want to rewrite it, that fine. --A.Garnet 16:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is in very bad shape

message: I wanna ask a question. How many greeks were there in pontian region just before the "Pontian Greek Genocide"? --Doluca 19:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's disputed. I think Eleftherios Venizelos (Greek POV) once claimed 700,000, although IMO this is far to high. --Tēlex 21:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I apologize for deletion of a large piece of the article about "general interest". It was the description of various statistics based on google search. This in 100% original research, which analyses certain facts and draws specific conclusions, which is inadmissible in wikipedia (WP:NOR). If there is a similar analysis published in reputable publications, please quote it. Mukadderat 22:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't pull a red herring for me. I can easily find a refernce that supports the claim "the sky is blue", if comeone will be ridiculous enough to request it. Now, I am repeating my quiestion: what publication is the base of the deleted section? Please answer it and let's close shop. Mukadderat 00:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: P.S. Since you seem to know the issue, please add the greek term for the event into the article. Mukadderat 00:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry for late answer. Google Trends is not a publication. It is a tool. You did some search using this tool. What you found is not a publication. It is an analysis of google database. The results may change in a year or if you use different words for search. I don't dispute that the term is not widely used. But is is officially used by at least one country. Please undertand, using a search tool to draw a conclusion about something is research. Inshallah. Mukadderat 03:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. I also fail to understand the encyclopedic value of your Trends result. The "pontic greeks" does not show on Google Trends either. The same for "valide sultan", Şeyhülislam and many other things. So what?  That some topics are not interesting to  americans? Mukadderat 03:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research

message: The citations that are asked, concerning the first 2 cases, can be found in many of the external links along with the links in the references' section. about the 3rd requested citation... i have no idea why it was added... (perhaps to counter-balance the first two?). anyway, in USSR-, Stalin-, etc related articles someone can find all the info he wants. --Hectorian 11:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not how it works Hectorian. When you make a claim, or present it as fact, then that specific fact must be substantiated through a citation. The reader has to be able to see where you are getting your facts from, you cannot just tell them "search through the links". As i have said, if the facts are verifiable, then these claims can be referenced without trouble. --A.Garnet 19:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current reverts 

message: can someone explain who s.ker pasha is? Even the citated artıcle does not mentıon such a name. Also the citated artıcle says Sefker Pasha was the Turkish prime minister (I guess it means Ottoman!!!!) but as far as I remember Hüseyin Hilmi Pasha was the prime minister at that time. --Hattusili 05:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  who is s.ker pasha? 

message: Of the documents referenced as sources for the claim of official recognition of genocide by U.S. States, only the one from New Jersey seems to have any claim to such a status. The one called "South Carolina recognition" has print of about 2 pixels high, not exactly legible, and yet I'm pretty certain none of the words there is "genocide". For those for Florida and Massachusetts there is no indication of any kind that the resolutions were accepted, at best that they were introduced. If they had been accepted, no doubt there would have been people eager to introduce clearly officially accepted versions as evidence, and capable of doing so. My conclusion is that, for serving as sources for the claims of recognition, these are bogus. --LambiamTalk 02:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Official" recognitions 

message: If I am correct, A.Garnet is disputing the term 'genocide' not the historical fact that thousands of Pontian Greeks were massacred. But, can we agree that, (1) there existed a Greek based civilisation in the Pontus for over 2,000 years. (2) In 1922, it suddenly vanished and most of the Pontian Greek Orthodox, Greek-speaking people disappeared and (3) there was much bloodshed. If so, how do we call such an event? The Greeks call it genocide; that is the reason it exists as an article. Politis 17:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: American consul Oscar Heizer extensively reported the deportations and massacres occuring in Trebizond to ambassador Henry Morgenthau in Constantinople. Although much of his reports concerns the killings and deporations of the Armenian population, there are some references to "similar fates" in regards to the Greek population. See also Leon Surmelian's book I ask you Ladies and Gentlemen (Dutton & Co., 1945) for an eyewitness account of the destruction in the city and also in the United States press in Armenian genocide : news accounts from the American press (1915-1922) edited by Richard Kloian.--MarshallBagramyan 17:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Genocide