Talk:Jesus/Archive 70

message: Is is me, or is this article a little bit too long? When i search up britanica of jesus, it does a good job of splitting up things more evenly. samphex 15:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Summary style. 88 KB is a bit long. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 21:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I, for one, do not accept that articles, especially ones for controversial topics, should be long and unwieldy. A reader who is honestly curious about this subject is unlikely to finish the 23 pages this article comprises (using almost no margins and a smallish font). On the other hand, summary style conventions would make this a better, tighter, more Wikified article and, far from sacrificing quality, would allow editors with a passion for a certain segment of this topic to more fully explain the issues in the appropriate fork. Just MHO, as always. Kevin/Last1in 21:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We're starting to do so. See Project Trinity note at the bottom of the page. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 00:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Length

message: I have overhauled two articles: Christian views of Jesus and New Testament view on Jesus' life. I condensed the Christian view bio section. That article seriously needs a lot of work, but at least now it doesn't have a redundent Jesus' life section. I kept in the little bit of information that discusses Christian views, but removed the plot summary stuff. As for NT views, I combined the life sections of those two articles and the main Jesus article to create one long narrative. New Testament view on Jesus' life probably needs some going over and the reference combination idea that Aiden proposed, however, I believe we have a fairly beefy article now covering the narrative of Jesus' life in the gospels. So after other's get a chance to go over those two articles, we can begin talk on the next phase: seriously condensing the life section of this article. I think the pre-overhaul New Testament view on Jesus' life had some paragraphs that I wouldn't mind using for the condensed version. Anyway, I'm going to turn my User:Andrew c/Jesus page into the sandbox for the condesning. If anyone wants to contribute, feel free to edit there.--Andrew c 22:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: VERY nice. Really good job. The first thing I think that needs condensing in this article is the Chronology section. —Aiden 23:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 00:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've gone through and done some condensing as well. Although it is somewhat different from Andrew's version in places, I mostly followed his example. You can see the diff between the current Jesus version and my version here and the difference between my version and Andrew's version here. As you can see, mine is just slightly longer, with an average of 2-3 paragraphs per section. —Aiden 14:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like what you have done with the ministry and passion sections, but I still stand by the handful of sentences I cut that you kept. Maybe the best thing to do is to simply rewrite certain sections in a more concise manner, so we can keep in the details that I cut, but in a less wordy matter? Anyway, I urge editors to compare Aiden's with mine by looking at this diff, especially taking note at the few sentences that I cut. Is it important to mention the Catholic annunciation? Is it important to mention the manger when we have wikilinks up the ying yang poiting to Nativity of Jesus and First Noel and such;  do we need to mention all the extra details and differences in the synoptics when it comes to the baptism? what do the titles of jesus have to do with his ministry? do we need the detail about the guards at jesus' tomb? anyway, these are just minor things, and I totally appreciate Aiden's work (especially in the passion and ministry sections, look at the diff to see). --Andrew c 16:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think in many instances providing context is just as important as chronology. There is a big difference in describing Jesus' brith and highlighting what the Gospels describe as the birth of the Son of God. Yes the sentence on the Catholic Annunciation can be removed, but I think the fact that the Gospels describe an angel sent by God to inform Mary of her pregnancy is more fundamental than anything else in the paragraph. Likewise, the fact that Jesus was born in a humble manger foreshadows the Gospel account that Jesus had forsaken the riches of the world "come not to be served, but to serve." Honestly though, I think the section is short enough that these two sentences have little affect on the overall lenghth. On the Baptism section, you are 100% correct. I had originally intended on keeping your condensed version, but must have skipped over it, so I definitely agree with you there. About the titles, I think it is again important to provide context, that the gospels describe Jesus' life as more than just a "travelling Rabbi" but as the Messiah imparting the Word of God (or logos). Finally, on the Resurrection, same deal as the Baptism: I had orignally intended to use your condensed version for the first paragraph, but forgot to copy/paste it over the original. So thinnk our only sticking points are the two sentences in the Nativity and the first sentence of the Ministry section. —Aiden 16:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please take a look now. I have inserted your version in the instances mentioned above. —Aiden 16:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent work! The only thing is I feel the discussion on Inn vs family room is too detailed for an overview (I can understand the discussion about brothers because it is important theologically, but inn vs. family room...). I think that's the only other thing I'd remove. Maybe our next step could be combining citations? Or maybe we should let it go live, but maybe we need more consensus. Anyway, thanks for working on this, and I'm excited that things are finally moving.--Andrew c 01:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project update regarding Jesus' NT bio 

message: The Gospels of Matthew and Luke give opposing accounts of Jesus' genealogy, (, (). Both trace the patrilineal line of his legal father Joseph back to Abraham through King David but via different sons of King David: King Solomon and Nathan, respectively. Thus, the lines differ between David and Joseph. Since antiquity, scholars have disagreed about the significance of two genealogies.
Matthew's genealogy involves Jesus's title "Christ", in the sense of an "anointed" king. It lists the succession of the kings of Judah, starting with David through Solomon and ending with Jeconiah. All of them belong to the Davidic Dynasty, which terminated when Babylon conquered Judah. The successors listed after Jeconiah are heirs for when a Neo-Davidic Dynasty is restored to Judah. At the conclusion, Jesus being identified as a new king is called "Christ".
Alternatively, Luke's genealogy descends through Nathan, who is an otherwise little-known son of King David (mentioned once in the Hebrew Bible, ) with only an indirect claim to the Davidic throne. Notably, because each generation averages about 25 years, including children who are not firstborn, Luke's list of 40 generations between David and Joseph approximates a realistic one thousand years. By contrast, Matthew's list of 25 generations is too short and can only represent a "telescoped", schematized or otherwise interrupted line.
Luke's genealogy involves Jesus's title "son of God", in the sense of descending from Adam who was created by God. Luke opens the genealogy with the heavenly voice at Jesus' baptism saying, "You are my son", and concludes it with the addition of earlier ancestors before Abraham back to Adam, who is called "son of God".
----
As requested, I add the above proposal for the text in the Genealogy section, contrasting the main features of the two genealogies. --Haldrik 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The cuts are fine. The intention is to summarize pertinent differences without committing to any particular scholar's interpretation. --Haldrik 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That was Haldrik:  Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 16:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I havent read the earlier discussion yet. But Family seems more like biography than Genealogy, which is more like a pedigree certificate. --Haldrik 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No, Slrubenstein, I was referring to Haldrik's multiple additions (some of which you removed.) Sorry about that. —Aiden 16:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Why an objection to "biological"? It just means that in comparison to Matthew's genealogy, Luke's reads like a straightforward genealogy tracking literal paternity, with minimal political claims or schematizing. --Haldrik 00:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If that information isn't already included at Genealogy of Jesus, then I'd strongly urge a redirection of efforts to that page. I feel that because there is a spinout article on that topic already, this information is too indepth for a broad overview (i.e. this article). We don't want to give undue weight to any aspect of Jesus by giving it more space and detail. (also see the condensing efforts above).--Andrew c 01:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haldrick, my objection is primarily against the current wording which might imply that Luke's is biological because of what follows but which really has nothing to do with that. Maybe a possibility would be to organize this not on a "first Matthew then Luke" but on a "difference by difference" scheme. Str1977 (smile back) 08:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: There is No-Original-Research in the text above. In fact, quite the opposite. Anyone familiar with the topic knows Matthew was taken for granted as presenting a kind of "Succession of Kings" since the earliest centuries. Haldrik 20:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: If I understand you correctly, both of these sentences that you cut have remained cut, and havent been part of the above proposed text. Haldrik 21:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The Gospels of Matthew and Luke give opposing accounts of Jesus' genealogy, (, (). Both trace the patrilineal line of his legal father Joseph back to Abraham through King David but via different sons of King David: King Solomon and Nathan, respectively. Thus, the lines differ between David and Joseph. Since antiquity, scholars have disagreed about the significance of two genealogies.
I'll move the rest of the proposed text to the spinoff article Genealogy of Jesus. Readers wanting more info about the genealogies can link there. I feel strongly Genealogy and Family are different sections. The genealogy is a field of research that cant be separated from the more ancient related genealogical texts that also include numerous similar problems (like the opposing lineages of Shealtiel, not to mention the opposing lineages Pre-Flood). Genealogy has little to with Jesus's immediate family, whose problematics concern the manner Jesus relates to his father Joseph and siblings (or whether Jesus's brother Yaakov/Jacob/James, is identical with Yaakov Hatsadik/James the Just, and so on). Barring any concerns, I'll post the brief first paragraph only of the Genealogy, in a separate section in the Jesus article tomorrow. Haldrik 21:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Your proposal dwells more on the Gospels than on Jesus. —Aiden 22:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair point. For that reason the fuller text seems better as it conveys how the Gospels portray Jesus himself by describing his special status. Barring objection I'll post it when the time comes. Haldrik 06:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Posted. Haldrik 01:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for Genealogy Text 

message: I have just added the category of musical theatre characters to this page. Before anyone gets offended let me remind them of musicals such as Godspell and Jesus Christ Superstar. --kralahome 06:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musical theatre characters 

message: Would this link be helpful in the article? Census of Quirinius Lostcaesar 12:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 16:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chronology 

message: I apologize in advance if this has already been touched upon.
"In the 248th year of the Diocletian Era (based on Diocletian's ascension to the Roman throne),"
How does that work?  Either it's in 248 AD (however screwed up that determination may be) or it's in the Diocletian Era.  The above wording implies that there were at least 248 years in the Diocletian Era and that the event described took place in the 248th.  I can tell you Diocletian did not rule for 248 years off the top of my head and that no Roman Imperial dynasty (at least in the west) extended for 248 years.
Didn't the writer mean to say rather this? "In the year 248 AD during the Diocletian Era ..."
:Correction made. :) Haldrik 00:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diocletian Era/248th year 

message: I think I read somewhere that Jesus O'Nazareth came from Irish stock - indeed, that his parents were both Irish-Americans.  Can someone please add Jesus to the "Irish-American" category.  Thanks. 195.92.40.49 16:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Har har :/ Homestarmy 02:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heritage