Talk:Perry Mason

message: I cant believe it. Most of the emphasis of  this article is on the TV series. Blech. the books were so much better.
Deepak 16:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this article needs some work, however, I do not have the knowledge to do it.  --Erik Jensen 04:07, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that a lot of work is needed here.  There are some misunderstandings -- a couple of things that are just plain erroneous -- and some omissions.  Some of the descriptions of the novels are -- well, let's say "unusual".  I'm going to work at revising this article over the next few weeks, and add citations wherever possible.  (One of the problems with writing about detective fiction is that there are so few critical sources.)  I welcome comments and amendments. Accounting4Taste 02:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  I hope that the extensive revisions I've made will serve as a beginning, and I welcome anyone's assistance, comments and amendments.  My next task will be to give a terse explanation of each of the novels to replace/amend what's there. I will say that there were two things about this page that were driving me crazy.  The main one is that Perry Mason was being described as unethical.  IMHO it was always made very clear in the books and TV series that he took great care to stay on the ethical side of the law.  The other thing that was nagging me was the suggestion that The Case of the Fan-Dancer's Horse had any relationship whatsoever to the Sherlock Holmes story Silver Blaze.  Only in the sense that they both contained horses, I have to say.  Accounting4Taste 04:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! The Silver Blaze thing had been irritating me, too. Marieblasdell 18:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Books?

message: The article gives the name as "Lieutenant Paul Tragg," but on IMDB, it is "Lt. Arthur Tragg."
It is also Arthur Tragg on several other sites. (Google)
Which is it?
--Erik Jensen 07:54, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am fairly sure it is Arthur, though they didn't use the first name very much.  Why would Gardner have given the same first name to two major characters in the same series? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:51, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I Will change it.  If it is wrong, someone can revert it. --Erik Jensen 03:56, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tragg's name was definitely Arthur, although Perry and Burger just called him Tragg, and the other principals generally just called him Lieutenant. Mark Dixon 20:32, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  He is called to the stand at least once as Arthur, I remember this because recently I was trying to remember what his first name was, and the very next episode had it. I don't remember which one is was, though. CFLeon 07:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's Lt. Arthur Tragg.. I read it in Books.. satishynd  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.0.111 (talk) 19:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

text:  He is called "Lieutenant Arthur Tragg" in the television episode "The Case of the Fugitive Nurse." J S Ayer (talk) 17:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

text: He refers to himself as Arthur in The Case of the Fenced-In Woman. -- Mr Wednesday (talk) 06:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lt. Tragg's First Name 

message: perhaps a brief mention of the Ozzy Osbourne song 'Perry Mason'(AbsoluteLyric) would fit here also? --Morbid-o 20:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ozzy 

message: Good work, 68.148.21.240. Rick Norwood 13:37, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  added dates 

message: When the television series was cancelled, it was one of the most popular programs on television.  Does anyone know why it was cancelled?  J S Ayer 17:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for cancellation of series 

message: I have mixed feelings about the new plot summaries.  I can see how they might be useful if someone were looking for the title and only remembered the plot, but if they are to be included at all, they must be kept short.  I'm going to make some of them shorter. Rick Norwood 18:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tried to follow your lead by seeing if I can isolate a key plot point or two to serve as a reminder to someone.  If I've been too wordy, by all means edit them down, but at least I've filled in some of the blanks. Accounting4Taste 06:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  plots 

message: Yep, it happened on Perry Mason. The first time was actually a tape outline in "The Case of the Perjured Parrot" in 1958, but the outlines started showing up in other mystery dramas from there. Incidently, there has been some controversy as to whether or not the police actually do this. In some cities, they do. It is common practice in Cape Girardeau, Mo. and has even been shown on some of the new reels on KFVS channel 12 there, especially when the Scheper murders took place in 1992.
4.245.15.174 16:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Double Or Quits, as by A.A. Fair, 1941, chapter 3: "The coroner ... brought out a piece of chalk and said, 'All right, now mark there on the floor right where the body was lying. Make a little diagram. Mark the position of his head, of his feet, and of his arms.'" I've added this reference to the main page.  I don't know of any reference to a chalk outline in the Perry Mason books specifically.  What's interesting is that the outline in this citation is being requested of a witness after the body has been moved -- the coroner is trying to get the idea of what happened by having Donald Lam draw the chalk outline.  I would suggest that the outline on the TV show was a way to show the location of the dead body without any potential infringement of the production code by actually showing a corpse.  Accounting4Taste 04:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I'm sure you know, but some may not, that A. A. Fair was a pen name of Erle Stanley Gardner. Rick Norwood 19:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There is a conflict between the need to document the position of the body, and the need to keep the body from being contaminated by anyone (from a CSI to a hungry bird) who might disturb it, or deposit things on it such as dust, or hair, or DNA; and in some cases prompt refrigeration may be required. Having once photographed the corpse in situ, normal procedure would be to bag it up and send it to the morgue, but leave some kind of easily understood graphic indication of position, that could be used to photographically document it's relationship to specific items in the remainder of the crime scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cspoleta (talk • contribs) 21:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The introduction of the chalk outline 

message: Does anyone know more about the 'Perry Mason' branded television movies that actually featured "flamboyant" lawyer Anthony Caruso (not the actor of the same name AFAIK)? There's one on the Hallmark channel right now in the UK called "Perry Mason: Wicked Wives". --81.129.250.83 19:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anthony Caruso 

message: Why did David Ogden Stiers keep showing up in the early movies?  It seemed that even when Mason was working on a case out of town, Stiers was portraying Michael Reston -- and prosecuting the case.  Prosecutors, unlike defense attorneys, do not take on cases wherever they happen to be.--Will 04:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the early movies themselves, Stiers was the prosecuting attorney in Denver.  The very earliest of the TV movies were shot in Vancouver, Canada (I actually witnessed them shooting here and shook hands with Burr) but as I understand it the productions moved to Denver because it was even cheaper to shoot there. I'll try to find a reference in one of the early films that confirms Stiers' role.  
Accounting4Taste 15:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about David Ogden Stiers 

message: I have troubles believing the military court in The Case of the Desperate Deception really reflects a real military courtroom.  I have watched JAG long enough to know that, while there were many errors in those trials, they had one part correct that the Perry Mason producers probably got wrong.  In the Perry Mason movie, the court consisted of a panel of judges headed by a president.  However, aside from one episode, namely Defensive Action, JAG showed what resembled a civilian court with a single judge and a panel of members (equivilent to jurors).  This concurs with what is listed in the article Courts-martial in the United States.
--Will 05:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that the 1969 amendments to the Uniform Code of Military Justice created the current courts-martial system.  Having been involved in one in the early 80s (as a witness), I can state that the military judge was a JAG Corps colonel who wore his judicial robe over his uniform, and that the members of the court were officers and senior enlisted personnel who functioned exactly as jurors do in civilian trials.  Rlquall 04:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors in ''The Case of the Desperate Deception'' 

message: a local low-end tv station plays the original series during dead time (3:00 am or so) and i must admit, i'm becoming a fan. there wouldn't happen to be any dvds in the works, would there? 63.226.57.47 05:33, August 13, 2006 (UTC)
Many of the original Perry Mason episodes are available on DVD from Columbia House, and there is also a first season DVD available from amazon. Rick Norwood 14:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  dvd 

message: I think it should.  Info Boxes should be used to provide quick summaries.  Burying them is not a good idea. Will (Talk - contribs) 03:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should the Info Box be moved up top where people will see it? 

message: I deleted 'The Case of the Spinning Frog' from the novel list. If anyone knows that the story actually exists and was published, please revert. It certainly doesn't exist in the standard list of Gardner's books. Note that there's only three entries for it in Google, Wikipedia itself, Answers.com--obviously copying all its material from Wikipedia, and a person wishing to get a copy of the book. Also, the entry was added by an anonymous user, much later than the main list of books. Marieblasdell 06:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Crime Fiction, 1749-1980: A Comprehensive Bibliography by Allen J. Hubin, Garland, 1984, , and Erle Stanley Gardner: A Checklist by E.H. Mundell, Kent State University Press, 1968, and my 30 years of collecting Gardner novels, no such book exists.  Accounting4Taste 01:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good catch. --64.199.184.19 19:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spinning Frog? 

message: I did a massive revise/reorder of the books based on what I think are the true U.S. publication dates. I know it still needs fixing, specially to verify the publication order within a given year. It might also need another eye to make sure that I didn't introduce any errors. Marieblasdell 17:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked all the dates, made some edits, then made a really dumb mistake (aaargh) and had to revert back to the original.  I'm going to try again, with reference to Erle Stanley Gardner: A Checklist to get the exact chronological order of more than one novel/story in a single year.  BTW, Marieblasell, nice catch on "Silent Partner" -- I must have been thinking of the TV version, "Candy Queen".  Accounting4Taste 01:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Did all the work over again (sigh) and added citations to reference books.  Confirmed all dates with Hubin, then confirmed the order of stories within a single year with reference to Mundell.  Where exact day/month of first publication was not cited, I used the order found in Mundell. Accounting4Taste 02:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks! I didn't have access to a source I trusted for the exact chronological order. That looks good. Marieblasdell 03:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Publication Dates 

message: I've just deleted an entry in "Trivia" which referred to Eddie Izzard imitating JAMES Mason -- this was originally cited as Perry Mason, but I checked the Izzard article and it's James, so has no place in this article.  Thanks to the person who corrected Perry to James.  Accounting4Taste 16:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  James Mason 

message: I am supplanting the coverage in this article of the radio aspects of the Perry Mason franchise.  While, in today's climate, golden age radio serials may be forgotten.  But that does not make it less notable.  5 days a week for 12 years, is a lot of depictions.  3120 episodes is quite significant.  I plan on creating a Perry Mason (radio) article as soon as I gather enough material.  Here, I just plan on refering to it, where appropriate.  --K3vin (talk) 21:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radio 

message: In the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_mason, it states in the "In Popular Culture Center" that "William Hanna and Joseph Barbera stretched Gardner's character by creating "Perry Masonary" in the episode of The Flintstones in which the Rubbles adopt Bamm-Bamm. Masonary's opposing counsel was named "Bronto Burger"; the name of the Perry Mason-like character here incorrect (unless it refers to another Flintstones' episode that had this same, said character); there was such a character in an episode where Fred Flintstone is on the stand being "cross-examined" by a character named "Perry Masonrock", not "Perry Masonary"; 69.245.186.114 (talk) 02:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the Flintstones' Perry Mason Character 

message: I haven't seen every TV episode (and don't plan to, unless I someday find myself paralyzed with nothing else to do), but I do remember that, in at least the first season, Perry Mason and Pual Drake were far more likely to do things that were not exactly ethical and even borderline-illegal, creating a great deal of friction with Lt. Tragg. I was tempted to add this to the article, but I'm not sure how to do it properly. Someone more-knowledgable about the TV series should do it. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 13:43, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: skirting the law

message: I propose that this article should be split into "Perry Mason (TV series)"/"Perry
Mason (TV character)" on the one hand, and "Perry Mason (novel series)"/
"Perry Mason (novel character)" on the other.
Judging by the article and the talk page, most people who know Perry Mason at
all, know one or the other, but not both, and not to the same degree.
The result is an article that does not faithfully depict the character of 
Perry Mason in either the TV show, or the novels; only a melange of both,
either, or neither.
There is a great deal of difference between the Perry Mason TV shows and
the Perry Mason novels that preceded them. Of necessity, in order to get the original
novels on which many of the TV episodes were based into 60 minutes (minus
commercials) runtime, they were ruthlessly ripped apart:
the main plot being retained but drastically truncated and rearranged.
Characters were deleted or multiple characters combined into one. The
main characters themselves were simplified and "cleaned up".
For example Hamilton Burger, in the books, has almost the same relationship
to Perry Mason as Chief Dreyfus (Herbert Lom) has to Inspector Clouseau
(Peter Sellers), only less over the top. Dreyfus has a homicidal mania
against Clouseau, whereas Burger merely wants to imprison or disbar
Mason, because he can't stand it that the guy is always right, and always
wins at trial. By contrast in the
TV series Burger is just a typical prosecutor, completely indifferent
to everthing except increasing his tally of convictions. He probably
dislikes Mason but it hardly ever shows - after all the two men are
professional rivals and are expected to fight each other in the courtroom.
Della Street in the books, has an interesting backstory, and is more than
a little interested in Mason romantically. However she declines his offers
of marriage on the grounds that "I'd be at home, a bird in a gilded cage,
and you would be off having your adventures with some other girl." Aside
from her secretarial duties she acts as a sounding board, an enabler and
a keen observer of other women on Mason's behalf. By contrast in the TV shows she
is Mason's gender neutral sidekick but not his sweetie pie.
In the books Mason has two contrasting police opponents, Sergeant Holcomb
and Lt. Arthur Tragg. Holcomb is a great believer in old fashion police
methods such as wiretap and the rubber hose. Tragg, on the other hand
although less brutal in his approach, is highly effective in gathering
evidence, and Mason fears him greatly; whereas Mason's principal reaction
to Holcomb is to bait him and lead him on, in the manner of a stage
magician, so that Holcomb will become confused and self contradictory
on the witness stand. By contrast in the TV series the character of
Holcomb has been
cut, and Tragg, though skillfully played by Ray Collins, has very little
face time.
This was done to avoid showing how disrepectfully Mason treats the police,
and also to avoid depicting any of Holcomb's "good old fashioned police
methods" particularly in regard to suspects and witnesses.
In a similar manner, many other facets of the novels were also bowdlerized.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.192.239 (talk) 22:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info.  I had a feeling about some of these things, watching the show but never read the books. There is romance between Perry and Dela on the show. PopSci (talk) 18:08, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should be split 

message: The article says that we know nothing of (among other things) Perry Mason's education. But in one of the TV episodes, he revisits his old alma mater and fraternity, of which he is still a brother, and I think also an alumni trustee. It's not currently feasible for me (for technical and financial reasons) to rewatch the episode to learn the names of the college and fraternity, but the IMDb plot and episode summary are here: Perry Mason (Season 9, episode 4) The Case of the Cheating Chancellor (1965). In two earlier episodes, The Case of the Prankish Professor (1963) and The Case of the Brazen Bequest (1961), "Euclid College" is the campus, but Mason's alma mater in this episode probably has a different name. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:38, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The personal history of the tv/film/radio series character "Perry Mason" is ad hoc and may be be self contradictory.  I take it that the author of the offending lines in the article is referring to the canon written by Erle Stanley Gardner.  You have to distinguish between a series originating in video, such as Dr Who, and for which books were written to provide some kind of back story, and which had many authors to begin with; and a series like Perry Mason which was created and written in book form by Gardner - and Gardner only, during his lifetime - with only two "authorized" sequels released after his death.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cspoleta (talk • contribs) 23:00, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  College days 

message: This note was unsourced, and says, itself, that it may be unsourceable.  It would need rewriting to be encylopedic, at least, but with no source, I cut it.  I'll archive it here in case anyone cares to find a source and present it better.Ale And Quail (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: An alternative story, which appeared in some obscure magazine many years ago, said that Gardner liked and used pens made by a company owned by one Mr Perry and one Mr Mason; but this would be very difficult to verify. Ale And Quail (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut sentence; leaving it here in case anyone hopes to improve it. 

message: "In a courtroom coup, Mason introduces new evidence and often elicits a confession from the lawbreaker."
The stock denouement of the TV series wherein Mason crudely browbeats a witness, without objection from Court or counsel, until the witness confesses "I did it!" never occurs in the books.  It was a TV invention enabling Mason to get his client off in 60 minutes less commercials without being impossibly discursive.
Most frequently, in the novels, Mason develops the evidence up to the point where the murderer realizes that Mason has the solution - whereupon Mason then asks for a recess from the Court; giving the real murderer the opportunity to incriminate his or her self, by resorting to flight.
Sometimes Mason, as soon as he realizes the solution to the murder, will privately communicate it to Lt. Tragg, while the case is still ongoing; so that Tragg can entrap the murderer disposing of evidence or otherwise incriminating himself; thus enabling Tragg to get the credit for "brilliant detective work" himself. Cspoleta (talk) 22:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool.PopSci (talk) 20:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last sentence in "Novels" section of article needs correction 

message: One episode of the series seemed to mention that Mason had served in Japan during the American occupation after World War II.  It was in the second or third season (we are watching them in order and are on the third now) and guest-starred George Takei. PopSci (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: From his article: "The Case of the Blushing Pearls" 1959.PopSci (talk) 20:26, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  His military service 

message: The personage Don Ramón cites Perry Mason in the sitcom El Chavo del Ocho, denominating him erroneously as Perro Menso.
189.69.67.242 (talk) 13:32, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of Perry Mason in the sitcom ''El Chavo del Ocho'' 

message: In the Case of the Half-Awakened Wife" Mason received a telegram from war war buddy. Della says that Lawton was a Lieutenant in Masons Company during DDay. 2600:1004:B247:6044:30E0:EBFF:FEED:4AA3 (talk) 18:34, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perry Mason war service