Talk:Kven/Archive 3

message: In the Kvens of the past history ends already ca 1350, i.e 650 years before we were born. All after that is excluded and it is referred to this modern time site of the Kvens. But here we miss almost all the history between 1350 and 1850, just mentioned in a few lines with political and biased arguments, and no reference. Very important history and lots of documents are excluded from the Kven article. E. g. "There is little evidence that modern Kvens are direct descendants of Kvenland mentioned in a few ancient Norwegian and Icelandic sources." We have Kvenland mentioned and discussed thoroughly in a report from 1742-45. There is no or little reason to say anything else than that the Kvens of today are the ancestors of the Kvens of the past; or exclude that kind of discussion and leave that to geneticians and politicians. So it goes the article. No distinct culture, no ethnic groups. Please.
--130.237.165.114 18:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. The name "Kvens of the past" for the other article is not very good since it kind of robs the present-day Kvens from their past. I'd prefer the "Kvens of the past" to be called just "Kvenland" which is the name uniting all ancient sources (that end around 1250 CE) and which is the common headline for the subject in other publications. The known history of the Kvens in the north, starting in the 16th century, should be handled in this article here. Any comments from Suedois that originated the split and article naming convention? --Drieakko 05:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: As "Kven" was most probably an old dialectal Norwegian name for all Finns, Kvens in the north are most likely as much descendants of the ancient Kvens as other Finns. Sources from the 9th to 13th century seem to place Kvens to southern Finland, sources from the 16th to 18th century to Lappland, and today the usage of the word has retreated to the northernmost Norway. --Drieakko 05:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The key point is that Kvens have not been known as a seperate ethnic group from the age of Kvenland until recent time. Also, I believe the history of the Kvens before they became a minority in Northern Norway should be limited in this article (that is anything before the first large immigration). I don't disagree that Kvens are most likely descendants of the ancient Kvens, but I have not found a way to write this without confusing readers who know nothing about Kvenland or even Finland. If someone do, please improve the article.Labongo 13:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest one of the following names: "Kvens (ancient)", "Kvens (prehistoric)", "Kvens (protohistoric)" or "Kvens (early medieval)". Or Kvenland, aa Drieakko suggests. Kvens of the past is arguably a very poor headline.130.234.5.137 12:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is funny 

message: The comments which you attempted to remove today are much more to the point than yours.  If any comments ought to be removed from here, they are yours.  
These comments - which you are attempting to remove - are here to show what the historians have proven your radical and unpresidented theory wrong.  The past and the new Kvens represent the same people.  Give it up !
: Nobodys comments should be removed. The comment which I unfortunantely replaced with a "forward message" was a posted on two Talk pages, with a discussion alredy started in the second Talk page. I hope in the future we can keep the noise to signal ratio low, and avoid posting off-topic comments on multiple talk pages. Labongo 15:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Labongo, do not resort to removing anyone's comments from here !

message: Please, do not worry where anyone writes, user Labongo, a.k.a. Fred Chessplayer.  Instead of removing comments from here on, make a counter comment of your own, if you wish.  You have no credentials or power to say what is relevant or not, even less to take out anyone's comments from the talk pages. 
A tip to you:  The above info in fact is extremely relevant, even crucially relevant.  This conversation belongs here.  The Kvens of the past column needs to be ended.  However, as long as that article exists, the comments can be doubled there as well.  That won't hurt.  You yourself appear to be one of the major causes for any confusion regarding this that may exist.  Please stop ! 
What on earth 18:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What on earth, it's pretty clear you are a sockpuppet that's been here many times before with the intent of trolling. --Leifern 15:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: User Labongo:  Do not remove comments from here.  Instead, answer to them !

message: To the user Drieakko:  That "vulgar language" part - women's private part - was an exact quote used by the accused, and copied and pasted here from a past comment.  
You have been accused to be that very person, remember.  That part of the text was now removed - nevertheless -, to please you.  So now, allow the comment to be posted, please !
Furthermore, the first comment (of the two) is not entirely the same at all as the one in the related discussion.  Do not remove it, or any other comments !
--> the comments in question have been re-entered below ! 
What on earth 11:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What on earth/ Steve Wondering/ Art Dominique, please stop posting duplicate posts on this talk page and on Talk:Kvens of the past. Also, stop the personal attacks and accusations that the editors reverting, removing and challenging your trollish posts are the same person. Labongo 12:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Concerning your claims about my other accounts, please make a request to Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser if you suspect any, Otherwise kindly stop that. --Drieakko 12:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or do it in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Kven-users. Labongo 12:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Concerning your duplicate posts on several discussion forums, additional copies of your posts will be removed. --Drieakko 12:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: User Drieakko - with multiple names - removes comments that criticize him

message: I waste my time to answer this, only to prove how absurd the latest accusations of Steve Wondering/Art Dominique are. 
This an answer to the comment just made by the user 217.112.242.181 whose vandal tactics were just proven in two comments posted on the discussion page at the Kvens of the past):'''
:Art Dominique, a well-known puppetmaster, accuses others of "vandal tactics"? 
Remember, earlier you were stating that nothing has changed in this respect since the 1960s.  Remember, how you were then proven wrong.  The entire matter - what comes to the northern settlement routes - indeed has been re-thought since the 1960s, and the subject is now taught in schools entirely differently than in 1960s.
:Remember, I never stated such a thing. Never. Remember, as I explained very clearly for several times, my "since the 1960's" statements were related to the Late Iron Age archaeology only, and were essentially correct. Please compare the distribution maps of Late Iron Age cemeteries in Kivikoski's Suomen esihistoria (1961) and Torsren Edgren's Den förhistoriska tiden in Finlands histori 1 (1994). 
:Remember, you have never proved me wrong - quite on the contrary. Remember - your credibility suffers immensely for your constant lying (a very un-Finnish habit, so shame on you!) and attempts to distort the sayings of other people. 
:The Kvens are, of course, inhabitants of Northern Fennoscandia, but there is absolutely no proof of them being there already in the Stone Age. Attempts to link Stone age sites with the Kvens are just a banal example of national-chauvinistic wishful thinking. 
Only three months ago you approved the Diki Wiki's Kven text (just like Mr. Mikkalai and others as well).  You did state, however, that you were still - perhaps - not fully satisfied.  
:I was not fully satisfied, and that´s why I now support Drieakko's text, which is so much better.
Now you're contradicting yourself in this matter as well.  You suddenly now want the Kven text written by Driakko.  Strange.  When you were accused of being him, you both mysteriously appeared to deny it at the same time !
:No ones cares what you are imagining, so save your breath.217.112.242.181 14:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amazing Steve Wondering 

message: To the user 217.112.242.181:
Another Professor Emeritus (other than Julku), Unto Salo, spells the word in question "Sithoni".
Perhaps you'll understand this: Älkäämme takertuko pikkuseikkoihin, matkallamme suuriin päämääriin !   - - what on earth 12:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kindly continue this discussion in Talk:Sitones. --Drieakko 13:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding spelling of "Sitoni / Sithoni, etc.