Talk:Pallas's cat

message: I have seen a number of references to this cat placing it in the genus Octolobus, rather than Felis.
http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=64
http://www.cathouse-fcc.org/pallas.html
http://www.indiantiger.org/wild-cats/pallas-cat.html
Journal of Wildlife Diseases, 41(4), 2005, pp. 691–700 "EXPLORING THE ECOLOGIC BASIS FOR EXTREME SUSCEPTIBILITY OF PALLAS’ CATS (OTOCOLOBUS MANUL) TO FATAL TOXOPLASMOSIS"
So unless there is some really recent taxonomy work done here I think this should be amended.
Stray 23:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup. Those all use the older taxonomy. The most up-to-date is in Mammal Species of the World, 3rd ed, and is reflected in this article as well as much of the rest of the Felidae. (It's not done 'cos I'm busy doing other work....) - UtherSRG (talk) 03:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Note the taxonomic note on IUCN's listing: http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/15640/all - UtherSRG (talk) 03:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taxonomy 

message: For when the article gets large enough to support a second image. ~ BigrTex 01:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another image 

message: Why is it called pallas' cat? Arthurian Legend 03:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look at the authority of the binomial name.... - UtherSRG (talk) 09:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pallas Athena? 

message: If this cat is named after a person (P. Simon Pallas?) or deity (Pallas Athena?) or something like that, wouldn't the correct name be "Pallas's Cat"? "Pallas' Cat" is only correct if it's named after several people/deities/misc. named Pallas. Xavius, the Satyr Lord (talk) 12:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The cat is named after the naturalist, and Britannica list it as "Pallas's Cat" . WP:MOS#Possessives gives both forms as acceptable for Wikipedia.  We don't therefore _need_ to rename the article, although it wouldn't violate the MoS if it was renamed. Tevildo (talk) 18:03, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

text: On doing some checking, every other article we have on animals named after Pallas has the "s".  I've proposed the move through the appropriate channels. Tevildo (talk) 18:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

text: And it's done. :)  Tevildo (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar

message: In RuNet manuls are popular. Better to add this here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr.Dozer (talk • contribs) 06:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While it has started in the Russian speaking internet, they became popular in other places too (especially Imageboards) - no wonder, who couldn't love such a concrete ball of fur :3 --87.123.118.135 (talk) 16:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Internet

message: Can they breed with the common domestic cat? Bizzybody (talk) 11:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Pallas apparently thought so, although not on the basis of any real evidence, and his reasoning seems to have been faulty. So far as I can tell, however, nobody has actually tried it to find out. Which leaves a scarcity of referenced info that we could add to the article on the subject. Anaxial (talk) 11:37, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cross breeding? 

message: The article cites a paper stating that in Nepal they live at up to 16K feet. On a recent (11/2/16) episode of Nature (PBS, S35E04, "The Story of Cats (1): Asia to Africa)", researchers were tracking a Snow Leopard in Nepal at 20,000 feet. Their remote camera captured a Pallas's cat marking and rubbing in the Snow Leopards territory. I'm unsure if this reference is good enough to change the elevation cited in the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1008:B153:AD89:0:1D:375D:5001 (talk) 16:03, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  High elevation / Nepal 

message: Their coat is the thickest among all the cats.The Story of the cats, Animal Planet, 2019
Hi Bhagya, is this controversial ?--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 16:11, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not controversial, but ALREADY mentioned. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:36, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Facepalm moment for me. BhagyaMani Thanks for the catch. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 16:39, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

text: BhagyaMani, can you please point me where has this been mentioned earlier ? I am unable to find it. regards. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 16:42, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the same section, 3rd sentence : "... stocky posture and long, dense fur makes it appear stout and plush." -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, but it just states they have a dense fur. Not that it is the thickest in the cat family. I still feel the line should be mentioned specifically.--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 21:21, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

text: What does thickest coat even mean? Does it refer to the length of the hair or the density? I'd be surprised if larger cats in cold environments (snow leopard or Amur tiger) don't have longer hair. If it refers to density then that is something that would need to be properly sourced if the claim is to be the thickest/densest.   Jts1882 | talk  07:07, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thickest cat 

message: Thanks again to User:Moscow Connection : the Pallas's cat got 15,532 page views while on the front page on 30 Jan 2021, wow!! -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:56, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Did you know nomination

message: This revert:  of 23:57 8 February 2021. A GA (and DYK) is a fine thing and a wonderful accomplishment, but as we have seen at the Jaguar article, (an FA in 2006) the article/information is not set in stone, and "frozen" for all time. An article may benefit by some additional minor improvements to the text. These improvements would not have prevented the Pallas's cat article from being promoted to GA, but are nonetheless helpful, in my opinion. 
As one example, please consider that many sentences began with the word, "its", which made for rather stilted reading. In my recent edit, I did not change (or intend to change) the meaning of the information in this excellent article, I only made changes for a smoother flow of readability. Surely, this is permissible...it would be absolutely unkind for a GA reviewer to expect true perfection, prior to elevating an article to GA status. 
You have the ability to research and organize a scientific article....please allow minor, friendly and supportive editors to do a bit of work on the prose. My edits were not intended as criticism of your work, but as support for a thoroughly interesting WP article. It took me a good bit of time to make the changes, and I dedicated the time, because I considered your work on this article to be worthwhile, and I wished to support you (and Pallas's cat). I ask you, with great respect, to reconsider your revert. Kindest regards, Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect! 03:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, Tribe-of-Tiger, I saw your edit that BhagyaMani reverted and my initial thought was that it was not an improvement. The article was reviewed as a GA very recently, so please trust that the reviewer- and BhagyaMani, who has long worked on carnivoran articles- knew what the proper format & grammar is. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 05:02, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comment, SilverTiger12!! -- BhagyaMani (talk) 05:48, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

text:  (and a note to )  Thanks for your polite comment, but at this point I don't trust this particular GA review, and I am starting to lose faith in , whose name I have known and respected for several years. I had to argue with BhagyaMani twice, before they realized that Pallas's cat does not live in a 80 C/176 F environment, an environment which doesn't exist anywhere on this planet. (See the long Distribution and Habitat section above, if you are truly interested in fairness).  And the GA reviewer didn't catch this glaring error either...along with some rather sad prose problems. At the top of this talkpage, it says this is a GA article, "If you can improve it further, please do so." Well, this seems to be a joke. Obviously, a GA article is assumed to be perfect, and if a normal editor attempts to make changes, as I did prior to discovering the 176 degree problem, their delicate and careful prose edits are entirely reverted (on 23:57 8 February) because "This version passed 2 reviews, for GA + DYK". That's what BhagyaMani wrote as a Ed sum, when they reverted 1.5 hours of my careful prose-only copyediting.  I guess I have learned a lesson...GA & DYK & FA are more important than providing decent WP articles. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect! 06:52, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

text: , well, would it have damaged you to explain this in an edit summary? Why are rounded ears so very important that they should be in the lede? What about "Its claws are unusually short. Its stocky posture with its long and dense fur make it appear stout and plush." or something like that? Which are frankly, less helpful than a size comparison to a domestic cat. If comparisons that assist the reader are not allowed in FA or GA articles, I suppose its a good thing that they are (hopefully) rare. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect! 06:07, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Your revert 

message: Thanks for adjusting size of the cladograms, whiz ! Looks a bit squeezed now, but that doesn't matter to me. I had tried to reduce font size of sublabels or add a line break, but that didn't work. Is there any way to perhaps reduce font size for sublables already in the template ? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:53, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cladograms 

message: I wish to insert a paragraph break into the second paragraph of the lede. The original wiki text shows a long white space after "South Siberian Mountains". The next line began with "In these regions".  This text markup usually indicates that a paragraph break was intended, but not actually inserted. I believe that a paragraph break is required, to differentiate between topics/information. 
In my proposed edit, the paragraph break results in: Paragraph #2, which describes specific countries/geographical regions. Paragraph #3 describes the specific attributes of the regions, camouflage, shelter and prey. I merely wished to insert a paragraph break, yet this small, logical change was reverted, so I reinstated it. I apologize for having to address this minor matter on the talkpage, and I have tried to explain in a proper manner, with Diffs. This seems to be the only way I can gain permission to edit this article. Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect! 00:07, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting permission/approval for another edit, a paragraph break 

message: , when do you intend on first mentioning Pallas? Because in my opinion it should be in the etymology section, considering that's where the cat's name comes from. Ddum5347 (talk) 18:43, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  First mention of Pallas 

message: If that is the case, "Manul" should be the correct title of the article.  Pallas did not "discover" the cat, the animal was known and referred to as "manul" long before Pallas ever laid eyes on it. --Halflauren (talk) 09:45, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The possessive can mean many things, depending on context. In the case of "Pallas's cat", it refers to the fact that Pallas was the one who formally described the cat for scientific purposes. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Manul seems to be more commonly used than Pallas's cat per Ngrams and Google Trends. Plantdrew (talk) 16:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm good with moving this to "Manul". Do we need to make this formal or shall we just do it? - UtherSRG (talk) 17:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

text: It should go through a formal move request. I had tried to search with apostrophes, but Google Trends stripped them out, which may have an impact on the results. Plantdrew (talk) 19:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name "manul" long preceded the name "Pallas's cat", correct? 

message: The article states  However, the reference cited for this (Blandford's Mammalia) doesn't say that, so  tagged it as both fv and cn (though fv implies cn, so I removed that extra tag). Do we have any other indication that this was the first time this species was called Pallas's cat? - UtherSRG (talk) 15:58, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If we can't find a replacement reference for Blandford being the origin of the name, then I suggest revising to something like  - UtherSRG (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Correct is that Blanford did not explicitly honour P.S. Pallas when coining the name. So I revised the sentence. – BhagyaMani (talk) 08:45, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but I wasn't taking issue with "honour", but the denotation that Blandford was the one who coined the term. As far as I can tell, we know only that that is an early instance of that name being used; we don't know if it was the first time it was used in print. I suspect that's a similar thought to why  tagged it in the first place. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:49, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Authors before Blanford (1888–1891) used either the Latin name, e.g. Radde & Walter (1889), Severtzow (1858) + Hodgson (1842), or 'Manoul' like Brandt (1841) in French. You are welcome to check and proof me wrong. – BhagyaMani (talk) 18:47, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please abstain from removing the fv/cn tag(s) until the sentence and whatever claim it makes is fully supported by references. Right now, nothing in that sentence is supported by the given reference. There are two claims in that sentence: “given by Blanford” and “given in honor of Pallas”, so there should be references for both of them in order for that sentence and its claims not to be challenged. Please also remember that the onus is always on the editors who want to keep the information, to provide supporting references - and not on other editors to “prove them wrong”. I’ve re-added the tag, please don’t remove it until the text/references relation is fixed in this case. cherkash (talk) 10:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common name origin 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved per strong consensus.  No such user (talk) 14:03, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Pallas's cat →  – Per WP:COMMONNAME and the discussion above that demonstrates that "Manul" is by far more common. UtherSRG (talk) 21:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Cats has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 21:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Mammals has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 21:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject China has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 21:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 21:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Nepal has been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 21:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 6 October 2022 

message: , please mind WP:OWN. I share the above concerns by Tribe of Tiger that passing a GA review does not mean that the article should be set in stone. Concerning your revert of my edits in the lead:
#  This unremarkable characteristics is not worthy to be in the lead at all, let alone in the second sentence. It came as an astonishment to me as a reader: why is this so important?
#  I don't find that very remarkable either, but it is simply incorrect. As we see in the article body, 
# It is common to introduce a native range for wild species early in the article, so that the reader knows where it stems from. However, here, we have to wait to the middle of the second paragraph, and then in the form of enumerating a dozen mountain ranges. I summarized it as "mountainous regions across central Asia" in the first sentence, gave the easternmost and westernmost points , and we an leave the exact list to the body.
# Why is it important for the lead that ? Those bits of history should be saved for the body.
No such user (talk) 11:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This was your very first edit on this page. I don't recall that you contributed to any other of the pages on cats and mammals in general. So I wonder whether you are familiar with the GA and FA criteria at all? And if so, what makes you confident that shortening the lead is an improvement of this page's GA status? − BhagyaMani (talk) 02:17, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am familiar with GA and FA criteria, thank you, and also know that a lot of stuff can slip through GA reviews, such as the one I listed above. I am also quite familiar with MOS:INTRO and have edited hundreds of article lead sections in various fields. Why don't you address the substance of my arguments instead of questioning my qualifications? I'm just a random person on the internet, just like you. No such user (talk) 08:18, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, I think that brevity is usually a virtue in the lede, and personally I do like the shortened version better. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: The intro says that the first description was by Peter Simon Pallas in the 1700s. While that may be true taxonomically speaking, it seems unlikely to me that there was no earlier written description of this animal by any of the civilizations within its habitat range (Persian, Arabic, Chinese, etc.). I've slightly changed the wording for lack of further information, but identifying the true first written account might be a good project for someone with the inclination to pursue it. Nicknimh (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Once YOU found an earlier than Pallas's description, you are welcome to add it and change the wording. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 01:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  First description in non-Western literature?