Talk:History of antisemitism/Archive 2

message: *(Moved from section the Poles vs. the Danes)
In the light of the comment by User:Cautious above (NOTE. The "above" is now out of context. See history to view how User:Cautious butchered this page --Humus sapiens|Talk 19:58, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Your personal problem lies in black and white perception of the world. You must accept that there were people in history, who were not friendly toward Jews, but not motivated by Anti-Semitism. In this light this article is simply nonsense. Anti-Semitism should be clearly defined and attributed to racist ideology. Cautious 18:03, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Anything better than personal attack please. Anything on the subject? Racism is only one of many dimensions of A-S. There are many more, learn from the corresponding article, it is educational. --Humus sapiens|Talk 18:19, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree on the article on condition that is renamed. I propose Unfortunate history of Jews. This is exactly what is the article about. Waiting for other proposals. Cautious 14:17, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am against this loony POV "proposal". Jewish history is not defined by A-S. --Humus sapiens|Talk 19:58, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What is about History of animosity against Jews? Cautious 09:05, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Welcome to wikipedia. FYI, this is not MY article. I suggest again, take some time and get familiar with the basics. So far you showed very little knowledge of the subject and lots of arrogance. Good luck. --Humus sapiens|Talk 08:49, 24 May 2004 
(UTC)
Not much left after 4 second scrutiny. Where is your AS hidden? Please rename the article Bad events in history of Jews. Cautious 09:34, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

text: You misunderstand the basics: Anti-Semitism is the hatred and persecution of Jews as a group; not the hatred of persons who happen to be Jews, but rather the hatred of persons because they are Jews. It doesn't matter where it comes from: religious intolerance, political convenience, financial gain, economic competition, imperialism, socialism, the lack of "concept of martyrdom", etc. The process is the same: justify the hostility - ostracize - dehumanize - get rid of. The national-socialists could also claim "simply ignorance" or "only following the orders". These are mere excuses, what matters is the end result: hatred-motivated expulsions, pogroms and mass murder. --Humus sapiens|Talk 23:04, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

text: The same steps were repeated during mass and especially state-orchestrated persecutions of Blacks, Gays, Gypsies, Christians in Muslim lands (Armenian genocide and more), Kosovo, Rwanda, etc. Time to turn this shameful history page, instead of looking for excuses. --Humus sapiens|Talk 01:54, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I found that you write at ease the round sentenced. Please prove in every individual case, that listed above events had something todo with AS. Can you prove that the Romans were worse against Jews then against Gauls, for example? You cannot close any history page based on false statements. I guess you are coming from SU, you must learned by now. Cautious 08:29, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  It doesn't matter. All the above are HISTORICAL FACTS, no matter what you or I will say today. If historic events satisfy some condition (such as definition of AS, or of classical music, etc), their development can & should be researched, analyzed, etc. Jews traditionally had high rate of literacy and were good at documenting history. You want to start a page about anti-Gaulism, go ahead. This page is about AS, so your attempts to switch to personalities or "Romans vs. Gauls" are offtopic. --Humus sapiens|Talk 17:59, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the header is written: "Here we note significant events in the history of anti-Semitism: as well as important anti-Semitic actions, we also give events in the history of anti-Semitic thought, actions taken to combat or relieve the effects of anti-Semitism, and events that affected the prevalence of anti-Semitism in later years." The problem is that absolut majority of events described in the article  has nothing to do with anti-Semitism   as I proved above on the small piece. The fact that Jews are traditionally good at documenting history ( but also are known for kind of reasoning that mostly covers the problem instead of solving it ) has nothing to do with writing biased encyclopedia articles. Cautious 21:42, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Your answer lacks logic. Have you ever heard about scholastic or talmudic reasononing? You are simply out of any reasonable points. The article is timeline of the selected events from the history of Jews. Cautious 22:16, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not see your comments as related to our dispute. You haven't proved that the events I evaluated were related to anti-Semitism. They need to go and the history should focus on the history of anti-Semitism, starting in the second half of 19th century. In addition your comments about my person are complete nonsense and make you look hilarious. Cautious 22:36, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

message: I changed the paragraph a little bit. It suggested that there was some hidden agenda behind Krakow and Kazimierz staying as separate cities. IRL, the two main problems that stood in the way were lower taxes in the Kazimierz (the Jews would have to pay much higher taxes if they joined Krakow) and the Vistula river. It wasn't until 19th century when the river was regulated and moved. Until then, the river was wild and ran just in between the two towns. Halibutt 20:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Kazimierz

message: I believe that the article cannot possibly be NPOV, since it attributes everything in history of Jews to Anti-Semitism. This is not fair. Most of historical nations experienced ups and downs. Jews experienced ups and downs + diaspora + anti-Semitism in last 2 centuries. Nevertheless, one can hardly attribute Roman invasion to Anti-Semitism. Cautious 17:59, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: One sober glance at Timeline of Jewish History will show that it is totally untrue. No one attributes Roman invasion to A-S. However, their attempts to wipe out Jewish people, religion and even erase Jewish names from the map definitely is. See talk in the corresponding articles before exposing your ignorance again. --Humus sapiens|Talk 20:12, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: I was asked for comments. I think that continuation of that personal discussion should stop (I am going to remove them to Archive) and we should focus on review of the listed entries in order to find out, what is their relations with the topic. Eon 22:39, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I inserted my comments above, on the lines beginning with % sign. See also archives. The User:Cautious' theory that AS began only in the late 19th century doesn't hold water. Please name any serious historian who supports it. It is silly to mix up the term's etymology and it's semantics. --Humus sapiens|Talk 00:59, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: answered. Cautious 01:16, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: So, when did it start? --Humus sapiens|Talk 02:25, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC interrupt 

message: "From the 9th century CE the Islamic world imposed dhimmi laws on both Christian and Jewish minorities."
I suggest "dhimmi" in this context is an anachronism and should be changed, since the word is of recent origin.  Marshall46 22:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dhimmi" laws 

message: I moved this long and winding paragraph (the longest entry by far), full of POV to talk. Perhaps it may be salvaged in the separate page: 
:1274 March.  St. Thomas Aquinas writes in a letter to the Duchess of Brabant: "...in consequence of their sin, Jews were destined to perpetual servitude, so that sovereigns of state may treat Jewish goods as their own property, save for the sole proviso that they do not deprive them of all that is necessary to sustain life". Since this letter is not widely published, and then only in Latin, it is difficult to verify the authenticity of the quotation. In light of the fact that St. Thomas wrote over 6,000 pages of text in his Summa Theologica alone, one wonders why this obscure letter is used.  On the question of whether Jewish children should be baptized against the will of their parents, Aquinas writes in his Summa Theologica: "Injustice should be done to no man. Now it would be an injustice to Jews if their children were to be baptized against their will, since they would lose the rights of parental authority over their children as soon as these were Christians. Therefore these should not be baptized against their parents' will." It is doubtful that Aquinas was promoting the idea of punishment for deicide, as implied by the fragment of the letter to the Duchess, since he nowhere else, in his many volumes of writings, ever hints at such an idea. It is more likely that the context of the letter to the Duchess was in regard to the complex question of whether it is lawful to deprive someone of property acquired through unlawful practices, such as usury. Another theory is that Aquinas was writing in response to a generally held principle of Kammerknehtschaft, or "Jewish servitude", common throughout Europe at the time of the Crusades. Originally intended as a protective measure bny the Holy Roman emperors against mob violence directed at Jews, it came to mean possession in the feudal sense. The idea is said to have been granted  formal religious recognition by Pope Innocent III, who spoke frequently of the "eternal servitude" of the Jews, although no sources are cited. It is also proposed that the idea was apparently adopted in a moderated form by Aquinas, who cautioned the Ducchess to act in moderation regarding the Jews she possessed. --Humus sapiens|Talk 20:43, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  1274 [[Thomas Aquinas]] 

message: I think some short description should stay here, especially since there's no standalone article with details. Pavel Vozenilek 19:51, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Zealand, 2004 

message: Is there any significance to certain parts of the text being bolded? If it's being done for emphasis it's rather inconsistently applied. Extension 03:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I claim guilty. I've added it (long ago) in response to one particularly annoying editor. I agree, we can remove it. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 04:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting note 

message: is there a list like list of Anti-Semitists/Anti-Judaists
* Johannes Pfefferkorn
* Luigi Chiarini
* Johann Andreas Eisenmenger ()
* Karl Lueger
* Paulus de Heredia/Pablo de Heredia ()
* Raymond Martini* (13c)
:Sheynhertz 21:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would vote against a list of anti-Semites. We do have :Category:anti-Semitism though. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 11:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listed? 

message: Can someone please provide references for all these German knights called Rindfleisch etc who engage in anti-Jewish acts. No doubt, these are possibly names but the frequency with which they appear makes me suspicious. Str1977 (smile back) 10:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It took me a second to find 1298 Rindfleisch ref. No idea about Saufleisch & co. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saufleisch, Rindfleisch and other meals 

message: For shame on such an organisation that promotes itself as an encyclopaedia, since there is a paragraph, may I say less than ten lines long, dedicated to Ancient Anti-semitism lacks the sort of detail necessary to create depth in Anti-semitism. All I could read of it was Egyptian anti-semitism, but clearly this is not enough...has everyone forgotten that Caligula and the Roman public in general were anti-semitic and amde no secret of it, but they are not mentioned, why is that? The answer is likely to be bias towards the Romans, but the point is that if Romans, who were Hellenistic pagans, were anti-semitic then that shows that there is more to it than the case of Christians killing Jews. Something should definitely be done about this.
RESPONSE!!!
To the person who wrote the paragraph above. Thats why there are edit buttons. So you can add more information. So instead of being appauled. Add the information you know..thats the reason for this site.
You're not wrong! please, everyone remember to sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~, which automagically adds your name (or your IP address if you don't have a name) and the date and time. Itsmejudith 18:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frankly, I'm appaled 

message: With the short paragraphs by date and division into centuries rather than periods, it is really a more like a timeline than a history. This is not a criticism BTW. Itsmejudith 18:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. This article is now 105 kB long and consists out of two distinct parts: History and Timeline. Should it be split? ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, since there have been no objections, I'll proceed to split it now. Itsmejudith 18:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change name to Timeline? 

message: Their are several articals that have been misplaced to the very end of the artical after bibliogrophy, if an Admin could set things right, the problem will be fixed the micplaced articalss include:
October
:A nazi swastika was spray-painted to the side of Temple Beth El synagogue in Portland, Maine.
2005
:A group of 15 members of the State Duma of Russia demands that Judaism and Jewish organizations be banned from the country. In June, 500 prominent Russians demand that the state prosecutor investigate ancient Jewish texts as "anti-Russian" and ban Judaism. The investigation was launched, but halted among international outcry.
2005 December
:Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad widens the hostility between Iran and Israel by denying the Holocaust during a speech in the Iranian city of Zahedan. He made the following comments on live television: "They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets." Continuing, he suggested that if the Holocaust had occurred, that it was the responsibility of Europeans to offer up territory to Jews: "This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [the Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." See Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel
2006 February
:A French Jew, Ilan Halimi is kidnapped and tortured to death for 23 days in what Paris police have officially declared an anti-Semitic act Rally honors legacy of slain French Jew by Norm Oshrin (NJ Jewish News)</li>
^ Rutgers University Students Pay Tribute to Hate-Crime Victim May 01, 2006 ^ OSCE at 'Critical Point' in Fight Against Anti-Semitism May 12, 2006 ^ "Global Anti-Semitism:Selected Incidents Around the World in 2006" ^ The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism</ol>
:This was corrected in the Timeline of antisemitism article. Itsmejudith 10:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error 

message: I thought it would be a good idea to have such a list, but it may need amending and/or prioritising. Would be interested to read comments. Itsmejudith 14:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To-do list 

message: This article has been tagged since Nov 2006 (Feb 2007 is just the date the bot found it unreferenced).  There are also large sections I suspect of being WP:OR, such as in Expressions of attitudes to Jews in the New Testament.  (Note, editors at WP cannot source claims about anti-semitism to New Testament-that's original research.  Verses of the NT can be included as examples only if secondary published sources have used them as examples of anti-semitism, and those sources must be identified.)  The many claims in the article need to be more specifically sourced with footnotes, and the WP:weasel words "some say" etc should be replaced with their "who"s.Professor marginalia 14:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. A key text would appear to be Paula Fredriksen and Adele Reinhartz (eds.), Jesus, Judaism, and Christian Anti-Judaism: Reading the New Testament after the Holocaust. Louisville, KY, and London: Westminster John Knox Press, 2002. This article and related ones really should draw from this and the other recent related scholarship. If anyone has time to develop the article(s) in this way it would be much appreciated. Itsmejudith 20:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verification 

message: I noticed the material detailing the pogroms against the Rhine valley Jews in 1096, but nothing is ever mentioned about the massacre of the Jews in Jerusalem. I am currently expanding the "First Crusade" section dealing with the massacre on the History of the Jews and the Crusades page. I will add info about them being ransomed later. What follows is a summary of the material I left on a user's talk pge in regards to their edit on Ashkelon:
"There was actually a lot more that happened between the Crusaders and Ashkelon than what you added to the article. Jews and holy relics were held ransom by the Crusaders. Somehow, news of these captives reached Ashkelon and funds were raised thanks to the Jewish community of Alexandria in Egypt. Some modern scholarly sources suggest that some of the city's Jewish defenders or even Jewish civilians were able to travel to Ashkelon along with Jerusalem's governor and the remainder of his forces. The payment for the first captives did not take place until early 1100, well after the Battle of Ashkelon. They were only ransomed a few at a time because ancient letters have the Jews of Ashkelon writing to Alexandria for more funds. I think most of them allowed to be ransomed were so by the summer of 1100. Sources state the number of Jews ransomed must have been "considerable" since even after all had been ransomed and some migrated to Egypt, at least 20 of the refugees remained in Ashkelon. Those who weren't ransomed (or killed while waiting to be ransomed) were sold into slavery. Some were taken to Antiochia, but most were taken to Southern Italy. A large portion of these never made it there as they were randomly beheaded or thrown into the sea along the way."
--Ghostexorcist 22:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds extremely important. If you have access to good historical sources, could you add the necessary detail to the article, thanks. Itsmejudith 23:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material lacking in Crusades section 

message: I removed a few links that are already linked, can we remove the others that are linked and also some per relevance? Ideally per WP:GTL, they should all be worked into the article or removed. Thanks, --Tom (talk) 22:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also section 

message: thumb|left|260px|Purported copy of the birth certificate of Michael Lucas (director)Pages from a purported copy of the birth certificate (Russian: свидетельство о рождении, lit.,Certification of Birth ) of Michael Lucas (Andrei Treivas, or Treyvas), showing information about his birth. It lists his mother's surname as "Treivas" (or "Treyvas") and his father's surname as "Bregman." Under Russian Soviet law, a child automatically inherited his father's surname so long as the father is known and married to the birth mother at the time of birth. This document proves conclusively that Michael Lucas' parents were not married as of the date of his birth.--72.76.96.51 (talk) 21:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And is there any particular reason you're telling us this? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image content clarification 

message: The article does not explain the emergence of racial (as opposed to religious) anti-Semitism in the nineteenth centuries and the influence of the pseudo-scientific theories of Gobineau and Houston Stewart Chamberlain, a serious omission.  In the 21st century a new element has emerged, a political anti-Semitism based on hostility to the state of Israel. Distinguishing religious, racial and political anti-Semitism (for which numerous references exist) would give structure to the article, which at present is little more than a list. Marshall46 (talk) 10:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial and political anti-Semitism 

message: The image :Image:Selection Birkenau ramp.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Resolved Fair use rationale added. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image copyright problem with Image:Selection Birkenau ramp.jpg 

message: I notice a strict emphasis on Europe, but anti-Semitism was rampant in the Islamic world. Jews were dhimmis. And don't give me this crap on the "Golden Age" and "Islam was tolerant" because that is a sugar coating myth, and this has been shattered.
:This point is already made in the section on "Persecution of Jews in the Middle Ages". Marshall46 (talk) 07:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  where are the instances in places other than Europe? 

message: This article, if it can be called that, is a hopelessly confusing maze of repetitions, misinformation, unverified statements and mumbo jumbo which, if you can wade through it to the end without a meltdown, leaves one utterly bewildered and annoyed.  It is truly a disservice to so serious and important a subject matter.  Anyone out there who could come to the rescue? Drichter53 (talk) 02:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite desperately needed 

message: Are there signs of antisemitism in China or hinduist India? --88.212.6.39 (talk) 21:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antisemitism outside of Christian/Islam world? 

message: This extract from the article is highly dubious and unreferenced. If nobody can find any refs for it I propose that we delete it:
::"Antisemitism was commonly used as an instrument for personal conflicts in Soviet Russia,[original research?] starting from conflict between Stalin and Trotsky ("Jews are trotskists, trotskists are Jews") and continuing through numerous conspiracy theories spread by official propaganda.[citation needed] Departament IV of NKVD was called "Jewsekcia" for its activity in "cleansing" party structures from Jews." Colin4C (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious... 

message: Richard asr (talk) 17:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Very helpful, thank you. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Pleased to be able to make a contribution. As an impartial copy editor, I found the article very interesting. Also very thought-provoking. I felt the introduction needed some expansion, so I had a stab at it myself – maybe if somebody looks at what I have done as a first draft and gives it a second go. Also, it might be nice to include a small section on an analysis or a summary of the  reasons for antisemitism from beginning to end in recorded history, since it seems to me from what I have read in the article that the situation has evolved, with each period building upon the last. Richard asr (talk) 18:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedited 

message: The section of the expulsion of Jews from England is so biased as to be a libel. The Statute of Jewery of 1275 ordering Jews to cease Usury as per canon law (not as thought charging interest on loans, but charging EXCESSIVE or compound interest) was not observed and those Jews who had not taken the FIFTEEN Years grace to find other occupations were penalised. Restrictions on Jews acting as moneylenders related only to Usury and was implemented only after other occupations were opened up to them. However many Jews instead turned to counterfeiting, coin clipping, "Pledge-fraud" and highway robbery. The 300 Jews executed in the Tower were all criminals convicted of a capital crime--largely counterfeiting and coining, after due process, hundreds of other were aquitted or received lesser sentences. It may be POSSIBLE that hundreds were killed or drowned trying to leave the country--it is equally possible that hundreds were not. There is ONE recorded incident of a number of Jews disembarking from a grounded ship on a sandbank in the Thames and being trapped by an incoming tide. Whether it was the spite of the ship's master or an accident depends on who is telling the tale, but "The Jew's Eddy" and the sandbank are still there. A 13thC cog is unlikely to have held more than 30 people if everyone on board was a "London Jew".Gaptech (talk) 00:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expulsions from France and England 

message: The last sentence of the lead reads "The formation of the state of Israel in 1948 has created new antisemitic tensions in the Middle East."  This wording suggests that the "new antisemitic tensions" exist only or, at least, primarily "in the Middle East".  Of course, there are a lot of anti-Israeli and antisemitic feelings among the Arabs of the Middle East.  However, the "new antisemitism" goes beyond this.  Shouldn't the lead make some mention of that? --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 04:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  New antisemitism 

message: 1. Traditionally Muslims regard Jews and Christians the closest groups to the Muslim faith in comparison to say atheists. Calling this attitude antisemitism is stretching the word too much. Jews have lived between Muslim communities for centuries without much problem, definitely much less that they have experienced in Christian communities, at least till the creation of Israel.
2. It should be clarified that what is called "new antisemitism" is lots of the time a consequence of creation of the state of Israel in an area which was dominated by Muslim communities at that time. If without the state there wouldn't be these attitude then that would mean that this is not a hatred for Jews but a reaction to the creation of Israel. 174.113.85.56 (talk) 04:35, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditional Muslim antisemitism? 

message: Christians think that the Jews killed Jesus, and therefore the Christians hate the Jews.  However, Orthodox Jews think that Christians hate them for a different reason.  Orthodox Jews believe that the Christians changed the essence of God, for the reason being that they hate the One True God, and either consciously or subconsciously want to deny Him as being One (not three) and as being the God of the Jewish people.  In fact, the Lutheran belief is that Jews, being the people of the devil, are the people who most hate God.  Therefore, according to Orthodox Rabbi Benjamin Blech (Benjamin Blech), this belief in these untruths are the reason why there is antisemitism in the world today. 129.98.153.196 (talk) 20:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Although Luther appears to have fallen victim to base anti-semitism late in life, even great men fall (Solomon slipped into rampant idolatry late in life) - should we view all of Solomon's actions, deeds, and words as moot as well? Luther's failures also do not mean that you or anyone can make a blanket judgement about all Christians as anti-semites. Instead other than the crackpot minority, Christians don't blame Jews for Jesus' death - they rightfully see His death as a requirement of salvation. They also see the Jews as God's chosen people. Only idiots disparage Jews (or any other people group). So saying that Christians are the root of Anti-Semitism is as abjectly stupid as saying "Jews killed Jesus" - as if anyone could kill the son of God if He didn't allow it... Ckruschke (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember, we aren't here to discuss the topic. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:12, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christians think... 

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:46, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: The article describes Poland but doesn't mention other East-European states and ethnicities.Xx236 (talk) 09:49, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern Europe after World War II 

message: Jews in the East were shot rather than killed in gas chambers.Xx236 (talk) 09:54, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reference to this effect? This isn't what I've read... Ckruschke (talk) 18:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder,Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning,  Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen, Babi Yar and Ponary massacre quote many sources.Xx236 (talk) 07:04, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

text: The Pit (memorial) informs about 5 000 victims, but this source  says 23 000 during one action.Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In the early years of the war there were mass shootings of Jews by the Einsatzgruppen and their collaborators, but gas chambers were introduced because this method of killing was considered inefficient and psychologically damaging to German soldiers.  See: Rees, Laurence, The Nazis: A Warning From History, New York: New Press (1997) Pelarmian (talk) 09:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea. I'm obviously looking for a source that would back up Xx236's statement that the "Jews in the East were shot rather than gassed" which appears to me as a blanket, catch-all. If it was only early in the War/Holocaust or was "only" a certain portion of the total deaths, that would obviously be different and could certainly be put in as a modifier to this page. However, the page for the Ponary massacre (and other Holocaust Wiki pages) clearly shows that Eastern Jews were pipe-lined into Treblinka, Sobibor, and other concentration camps. So either all the historical research that these pages/maps show is wrong, or... Ckruschke (talk) 16:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Do I have a different Ponary massacre page? My says about shooting in the forest, not about transporting to Treblinka. See also Ninth Fort.Xx236 (talk) 08:05, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

text: See the Holocaust and Einsatzgruppen pages.  Pelarmian (talk) 08:58, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What am I supposed to be seeing there? As I've said above, the Holocaust page you linked, as well as several others, all show that Eastern Jews pipe-lined in concentration camps and then killed in ways other than shooting. On the Eisensatzgruppen page, I pulled the following section: In conquered urban areas of eastern Europe, Einsatzcommando units would first kill many Jews in nearby locations, such as woods or buildings. The remaining Jews would be confined to ghettos. Death rates inside ghettos from disease and malnourishment were high; groups from the ghetto were periodically taken away and shot or deported to extermination camps. Jews in the Lithuanian city of Kaunas were concentrated in the Kovno Ghetto and sent, thousands at a time, to be slaughtered in the town's 7th and 9th forts (watch towers). So this again affirms what the other pages state - that Eastern Jews were shot, allowed to die in ghettos, or were sent to concentration camps. So again, as I said above, the sentence that Xx236 is discussing should probably be restated to reflect this - OR - left as is, but CLEARLY should not be changed to state that Eastern Jews were ONLY shot. But maybe I'm missing your point. If so, please clearly state it. Ckruschke (talk) 16:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I was addressing Xx236. Those articles make it clear that Jews in eastern Europe were murdered by shooting and gassing.  Pelarmian (talk) 09:52, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So we aggree that Jews in eastern Europe were murdered by shooting and gassing not by gassing mainly. Now we go to Geography, Jews liwing near occupied Poland were transported to death camps, Jews living far from them were shot. The same regarding Romania nad Serbia. Xx236 (talk) 07:48, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

text: The source  doesn't mention any Sevastopol Jew tranported to a death camp. I don't know general numbers but as far as I remeber Timothy Snyder discusses the subject and he seems to be more competent than Holocaust editors.Xx236 (talk) 07:57, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Maly Trostenets extermination camp - both shooting and (subsidiary) mobiie gas chambers.Xx236 (talk) 08:34, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: More than 40 000 Jewish workers died working for Eastern Front .Xx236 (talk) 08:40, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

text: German SS and police murdered nearly 2,700,000 Jews in the killing centers either by asphyxiation with poison gas or by shooting. , so less than 50% of total were gassed. Xx236 (talk) 08:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

text: The same says The Holocaust: These seven camps thus accounted for half the total number of Jews killed in the entire Nazi Holocaust..Xx236 (talk) 08:53, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazism and the Holocaust misinforms 

message: The Pope and Trent aren't situated in Eastern Europe, so the phrase should be moved or the connection explained and sourced.Xx236 (talk) 08:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The cult of Simon of Trent and Eastern Europe 

message: The most powerful nation of the world, the United States, didn't help Holocaust refugees until it was too late.Xx236 (talk) 08:18, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia isn't a soapbox for people, who describe antisemites in Europe but not in the USA. The book The Abandonment of the Jews isn't quoted in this article.Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please go ahead and add the pointItsmejudith (talk) 07:39, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

text: My English is poor.Xx236 (talk) 12:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Antisemitism in the USA is rationalized in the article by This dramatic increase. Xx236 (talk) 07:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many books that aren't quoted in this article. Wiki isn't designed to be encyclopedic. If you think something needs to be said, I think you need to go ahead and do it - none of us are your personal scribes. Ckruschke (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  United States 

message: What was committed during the Holocaust was certainly horrific, but the term "horrors" seems to me unnecessary and even inappropriate in this context, as "horrors" doesn't necessarily entail (human) agency, and seems to express the author's view (and my own, for that matter) of the Holocaust rather than describe the crimes committed by the Nazis. I suggest either removing it or replacing it with "atrocities" or "crimes". Transmogriff (talk) 18:44, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The horrors of the Nazi extermination camps" 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:3D Test of Antisemitism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 10:30, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress