Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 9

message: We finally finished one of the lists and I've put it up for FLC here. Feedback has been great, except for one user who opposes on the grounds that the list is not "encyclopedic", which I won't comment on, but also that the list is inaccurate because there's no compelling evidence that Hadrian and Antinous were lovers. As my reply shows, I am completely taken aback by this because I have never seen any source, classical or contemporary, that has suggested they were anything but. It is possible that I am wrong though, so if anyone who knows anything about Hadrian could comment, I would appreciate it. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The objection is on a level with the flat-earth theory.  On the spur of the moment, I can't find a direct quote from a classical source that says "these guys slept together" in so many words.  But no doubt there are such sources (Crompton cites the Scriptores Historiae Augustae, 3 vols., Harvard Univ. Press, 1953) because the whole body of scholarly opinion seems to concur that they were in fact lovers, and early Christians attacked the worship of Antinous on this very ground.  I've worked up some extracts from Crompton you can read here.  You might also refer to the article on Hadrian at glbtq.  The onus is on the objector to provide a classical or scholarly quote that they were not lovers.--Textorus 19:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: P.S.--Britannica also identifies Antinous as "the homosexual lover of the Roman emperor Hadrian."  So the objection is obviously specious.--Textorus 20:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunno why I haven't seen this list before, but can we add to the list if we note names missing?Moni3 23:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, absolutely. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And, if you're feeling froggy and want to have a go at some of the people we know we've missed, take a look at Wikipedia:List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/To be sorted. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/A 

message: I noticed earlier today that Benjiboi had reverted some edits by  in the Transgender article. I've just noticed that the same editor seems to have done some odd rewording of the Transphobia article. I'm inclined to revert this as well, but I thought I'd ask for opinions first. I don't have time but I'd suggest that someone really should keep an eye on this editor's contributions. --AliceJMarkham 02:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed those too but didn't have time to sort through them all, they didn't seem right but I didn't have trust they were all wrong either. Benjiboi 02:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted those too and left a message on the user's talk page. They seem new-ish and just did too many wonky edits with loads of minor edits. Benjiboi 13:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange edits 

message: I just rewrote the page for Marijane Meaker (uh, not logged in apparently so it looks like a blank IP address edited it - duh), but because she's a rather well-known young adult author, her page is written as her young adult pseudonym of M.E. Kerr and barely glanced over her lesbian writings. Unfortunately, I'm too ignorant to rename the page as Marijane Meaker, which it should have been originally. Nor can I create disambiguation a page for Ann Aldrich and her other multiple usernames. The Wiki style manuals drive me crazy. Any help would be appreciated. Moni3 03:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go to the article page, and at the top look for the tab that says "Move."  Just follow the easy directions there to rename the page.  I've never disambiguated, but the procedure looks relatively simple at Disambiguation_page#Disambiguation_links.   :-)   --Textorus 04:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh. OK, thanks. Moved the page. I also saw the disambiguation links, and simple it is not, especially when they include words and stuff about things I don't need to know about. :| Moni3 04:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd offer my help with a disambig page, but it doesn't seem like one is appropriate. In this case, all her various names should just be redirected to Marijane Meaker, which they seem to be. A disambig page is for multiple uses of the same word (see Medusa (disambiguation) for an example). By the way, I am manually fixing the double redirects. TAnthony 04:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the tinkering. If it looks fine, I guess we should leave it. Yay. Moni3 12:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marijane Meaker 

message: I was wondering if someone could take a picture of David Leavitt - apparently he is located in Florida, where he is a professor . He might reply to an e-mail.Zigzig20s 12:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I work at the University of Florida. I can take a pic of him, but have no idea really who he is beyond his wikipage. Any background on him would be helpful before he considers me his personal papparazzo.Moni3 12:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol. I am just finishing off his book, The Lost Language of Cranes. I found it in my local library (I live in a small town and they only have a few shelves with books in English), so I reckon he is not that anonymous.Zigzig20s 12:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did a major overhaul on the page for the novel, so it might make more sense to you now. When would you be able to meet him? Isn't the university closed because of the Summer holiday at the moment?Zigzig20s 14:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently not, since I'm at work and not throwing pencils at the ceiling. There is a lull between semesters this week, but because the fall semester starts on the 23rd, students and professors both should be close by. I can send him an email, asking if I can come by his office to take a picture, or I could hide in the bushes hoping to see him walk by...I'll read the page you just rewrote and hope I don't sound like such the dork I am.Moni3 14:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: He got back to me pretty fast. He says he's not teaching in the fall and won't be around much. He offered his publisher's publicity shot, but I don't think that will work. It's gonna get deleted in that case, right? I can get him again next semester if you remind me.Moni3 16:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeh - publicity shots aren't PD, so that won't work.  Best if *you* take the picture and upload it. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it rude to ask where he'll be? If he is in NYC (as he is a 'Literary Lion' at the New York Public Library - whatever this quirky honour means), David Shankbone would probably be able to take a pic.Zigzig20s 17:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[David Leavitt]] - anyone from Florida? 

message: Homoeroticist - any clues?  I mean, it's just a definition, no refs, no further info.  Speedy delete? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard of this term in my life. Sounds like someone who peddles gay porn. (We all know there's no such thing as good lesbian porn, unless it's written.)Moni3 17:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I may have come across it but with regards to homoeroticism...Zigzig20s 17:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What Zigzig20s said... Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 19:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Found this in Terminology of homosexuality - "Other terms include men who have sex with men or MSM (used in the medical community when specifically discussing sexual activity), homoerotic (referring to works of art)," so a homoeroticist is presumably someone who produces homoerotic art. Probably not worth an article in its own right, would suggest redirect to homoeroticism. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A bit old-school or highbrow or both. I would redirect to homoeroticism.Tom of Finland ref, (warning erotica) Benjiboi 00:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've boldly redirected the page to homoeroticism on account of the advice here.  Any objections? CaveatLectorTalk 03:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homoeroticist 

message: Just a note and warning to all who might be as clueless as I am:  sandbox pages show up in Google searches.  When I search on "Homosexuality and Civilization," my Greek love sandbox, created just yesterday, appears second from the top on the Google results list.  Huh.  IMHO, sandbox pages are for doodling and shouldn't show up in internet searches.  But no doubt the Grand High Cosmic Internet Cabal planned it that way.  LOL.--Textorus 22:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted sandbox, saved at home.  Anyone wants some of that material for an article, let me know.--Textorus 17:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is pretty stupid. You are correct and I am a little worried about that. How does one delete a sandox or subpage?--Amadscientist 02:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  should do the trick. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandboxes appear in Google results 

message: Seems to be valid and distinct enough from homophobia. comments? Benjiboi 14:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could it be included in a section of the homophobia article? I'm trying to think if I've ever met someone who disliked lesbians but not gay men, but who wasn't herself a complete closet case (Ann Coulter) and I'm drawing a blank.Moni3 14:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the prod tag in order to give the article creator (or anyone else) an opportunity to improve the article. I also made suggestions on the article talk page for some possible improvements, & alerted the article creator about it.  To be retained, the article needs sources for its claims at the very least. I think it's a pretty sure candidate for AfD otherwise, & will likely be nominated even with sources unless it can make a lot stronger case for lesbiphobia as a needed term as distinguished from homophobia. Personally, I think it could be integrated into Homophobia (& not for any lesbiphobic bias; I'm a lesbian myself), but I want to give the creator (or others invested in the article) a chance. --Yksin 16:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I've noticed the stuff you've been adding -- good stuff! -- which has convinced me that yes, this article is worth keeping as its own article.  I too hope it will expand into a decent article. Wondering if there are references to lesbiphobic stereotypes re: women's colleges (one of which I'm an alum of -- of course, in my case the stereotype turned out to be true). --Yksin 17:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the word 'lesbOphobia'? I've come across it many times...Zigzig20s 17:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, now after some thought, it seems that this term would be applicable in mostly female societies and organizations, like when Betty Friedan called lesbianism the Lavender Menace. I've also heard of this on women's sports teams and sororities, the leadership afraid of these organizations becoming associated with lesbians. Moni3 18:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article [[Lesbiphobia]] up for deletion 

message: I might as well ask, since we've managed to take a picture of Eve Sedgwick and David Leavitt replied - is there a member from Princeton University, or possibly from Edinburgh, who could take a picture of Edmund White? Apparently he is a Professor at Princeton , and on his website he says he might go to the Edinburgh festival .Zigzig20s 16:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Amazing.Zigzig20s 18:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Edmund White]] - anyone from [[Princeton University]]? or possibly [[Edinburgh]]... 

message: Is it just me, or does anyone else see the descriptive phrase "promiscuous homosexual" as being just a tad POV?  Or maybe even more than just a tad?  It's in the first paragraph of this section.--Textorus 05:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Roger Casement]] did what? 

message: Could anyone from Washington DC take a picture of Andrew Holleran? Apparently he is a Professor there. I was thinking also that perhaps he would be doing book signings for his latest book - so maybe he'll be in NYC or somewhere else? He doesn't seem to have a website though - but he has an e-mail address . BTW, imo his page needs a major overhaul - not very encyclopedic.Zigzig20s 19:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Andrew Holleran]] - anyone from [[Washington D.C.]]? 

message: Hello to the members of the WikiProject LGBT studies. Recently User:Dezidor removed these two categories Category:Gay writers and Category:LGBT people from Japan from this authors page using the edit summary Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category. Aside from the fact that who decides what is and isn't controversial is POV by its very nature I wanted to bring this to your attention because every biography that I have read (granted I have only read the ones written in English) mention his relations with men as a fact and not as speculation. Thus my inclination is to restore them to the page. But I do not want to get into an edit war so I have come to this project to see if there is some way to get to a consensus on how you feel that this should be handled. Whatever you members of the LGBT studies project decide will be fine with me and thank your for your time and attention in this matter. MarnetteD | Talk 20:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the article does state: "Although he visited gay bars in Japan, Mishima's sexual orientation remains a matter of debate."  If you can cite a source, I'd correct the article and re-add the categories.  Until then, the categories would remain controversial -- the other editor has a point, but that doesn't mean s/he is correct in the long run.  My 2¢. HalJor 20:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Yukio Mishima]] 

message: Given the plethora of requested photos recently, shall we set up some kind of page for people to list photos they want that we can update the task template with? I'm thinking we could have a page of name, location and contact details, where people can say "I'll take it" and then update the template with, say "Ben Bradford (London)". Would this be a good idea? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think so. The reqphoto tag only leads to a page for a place at best, so I think something needs to be done.Zigzig20s 21:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should that also include people who are dead, and other lgbt-related things for which there needs a picture? Or just people whom we might be able to take a picture of?Zigzig20s 21:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it needs to be photos that people can see listed on our page, grab a camera, and go snap a photo of it. When I used to monitor reqphotos in the UK, I would create a list of things around my house I could easily photograph and ignore the rest - I imagine that many people would something similar. Also, although I wouldn't mind nipping down to my local LGBT memorial/pride parade/center to snap it, I'd be rather more uncomfortable about approaching, say, my local bishop John Gladwin who is patron of Changing Attitude. So, it might be an idea to split any such list into three - people, places, and events. We could have a rotating list of randomness on the task template of all three possibly. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested photos 

message: Just wanted to point out that S. L. v. Austria has just been tagged for this project and could use some attention. 24.6.65.83 06:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[S. L. v. Austria]] 

message: This article had been tagged with notability concerns in December 2006, if found in on the backlog of the Notability wikiproject. I added some sources that show at least that the term is somewhat widespread use. Still, the article definitely needs cleanup and better attribution to sources. Maybe it might also be merged somewhere else. Could someone have a look? --B. Wolterding 08:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What a letdown, not what I thought it would be. I had visions of becoming a gay mafioso :) Maybe redirect to that guy's page?Zigzig20s 09:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And again my hopes for cute outfits go out the closet door - harumph. Benjiboi 22:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Lavender Mafia]] 

message: Hi. Ruth Kelly is up for peer review here. Your comments are welcome. SP-KP 18:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: May I ask why? Ruth Kelly is not exactly "getting it down wit' teh ghey". Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer review requested 

message: Someone not logged in added this lesbian musician to the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/P-T, and I had to adjust the entry and had never heard of her before. In Googling her, there is quite a bit of information, even on YouTube but much of it is in Tagalog, which I don't read or speak. Does anyone read it and can add to her article? 17:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Aiza Seguerra]], Filipina Musician/Actor 

message: Hi, I need a bit of advice about this edit . In my experience the labels "dyke" and "lesbian" are hardly interchangeable and "dyke" keeps getting removed as redundant, pejorative or LGBT insider-jargon. I think it's important but I'm not sure how to back up the phrase "dykes and lesbians." Should I just give up? Benjiboi 07:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose in order for Wikipedia to remain as objective as possible, the term "lesbians" in inclusive enough for now. Since "dyke" is still controversial enough to be considered an insult by some and a charged word of empowerment for others, in contrast there really is no other connotation for "lesbian". And I wish there was a Slut Night closer to me...Moni3 14:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Help me out here, y'all.  Dyke is to lesbian as queer is to gay, no?  A term of abuse in the mouths of homophobes, but "reclaimed" and acceptable within the community, right?  So usage in an article would depend on context.  We already have articles on "queer studies" and "queer theory," etc.  If I'm off base, please correct me.--Textorus 17:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the context, as usual. Queer theory has been written about and apparently named by people with letters behind their names - it has been intellectualized. And on Wikipedia, the use of "queer" is used only as it has been named by the aforementioned folks with letters behind their names, as opposed to more POV statements like, "George Bush proposed an amendment to the US Constitution to make it illegal for queers to get married." or, "The Stonewall Riots were initiated when the police raided a queer bar." Yes, it's odd, but I do see a distinction.Moni3 18:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Dyke" is to "lesbian" what "queer" was to "gay" - about 20 years ago.  IMHO. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: So do I re-add it with a qualifier like "self-proclaimed dykes?" Benjiboi 23:15, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could do that, but you'd have to cite it where the participants called themselves dykes.Moni3 23:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers. Done and cited. I also accept that the editor had a good point that many readers wouldn't understand using the term wasn't meant in a negative way. Benjiboi 00:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advice on "dyke" in [[Slut night]] article 

message: Up until a short while ago, the wikilinkage above directed to here. What happened? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That redirect was nominated at Redirects for discussion - the consensus was that it should be retargeted. You can read the discussion here. WjBscribe 21:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well anyone can create a new redirect for the page on en.wiki. But as the essay itself is on meta, the shortcut listed on it is the shortcut you would use to get to it from meta- where you just type "GAY" to be redirected. As to a good choice for a local redirect, WP:NOGAY is a little hostile given the pages is a joke. How about WP:FRIENDS? WjBscribe 22:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:GAY 

message: Hi all, so Cheer, Dorothy, Cheer! is a small performance art troupe that I'd never heard of but I'm glad I did. They do campy reinterpretations of the Wizard of Oz meets modern cheerteams as part of their extended Pride shows and I think they're hysterical. I've put a link to the videos in the external links section if you're looking for a bit of a giggle. Benjiboi 01:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cheer, Dorothy, Cheer!]] up for deletion - check out the videos though 

message: Hi, so another of those wacky ideas popped into my feeble brain and I checked the article and little mention (actually no mention) is made that lesbians helped expose sumptuary laws for being unjust etc. These were laws that define who was allowed to dress like a certain class of society but also a certain gender. Another example of bulldykes leading the way as it were. Anyone have interest or knowledge of where to find info on this? All help appreciated. Benjiboi 06:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Sumptuary law]] where are the lesbians? 

message: There's a bit of discussion going on at :Category talk:LGBT musical groups#Gray areas that could use some input. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT Musical Groups discussion 

message: I should probably have given you good people a heads-up on this sooner, but better late than never.  Fun Home is now being considered at FAC.  Early indications are fairly good, but reviewers want more coverage of themes in the work and scholarly commentary.  If any members of this project have access to scholarly sources which discuss Fun Home, please feel free to add them to the article.  (At the moment, "theme" is combined with "plot" in the article because of the book's non-linear structure, but anyone who wants to separate the two is welcome to try.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fun Home]] on FAC 

message: I've just deleted Judy Garland from List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/F-J, where she was listed as bisexual.  I read her mainspace article twice, and there's no mention of bisexuality in there.  Whoever posted her to the list gave only one reference, a 2006 book by Darwin Porter, Katharine the Great: A Lifetime of Secrets Revealed (1907-1950).
Looking at the review of this book on Amazon.com, I see more than one reviewer has noted that it is based on uncorroborated rumor and gossip.  Apparently, Porter's thesis is that Hepburn slept with everybody in Hollywood, male and female (I haven't gone to the Hepburn article to check it out).  I haven't seen Porter's book myself; but a quick Google search doesn't seem to turn up any other sources for Garland's bisexuality, other than reviews and mentions of Porter's book.
We know the divine Miss G liked men well enough to marry five of them; I'd be just as happy to learn that she liked women, too, but I'd like to see a reliable, fact-checked source for this assertion.  Hollywood gossip just ain't good enough for an encyclopedia, IMHO.  I was about to remove the LGBT template from Judy's talk page, but I'll leave it there until others have a chance to look at this matter too.  What do y'all think?--Textorus 20:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw a TV programme a few years ago where someone who knew her when she was young said something about  Garland having affairs/an affair with women/a woman, and getting into trouble with film studio peope. I can't really remember, certainly don't know any reliable sources, and chances are it was just gossip, but it might be worth a further look. --Belovedfreak 21:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, her bisexuality is addressed in Judy Garland: The Secret Life of an American Legend, by David Shipman. The New York Times gives the book a very good review, and even mentions that her bisexuality was well known in Hollywood. Put her back in or leave her out. But it is verifiable, which is the only criteria for Wiki. Jeffpw 08:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Judy Garland]] bisexual? 

message: The article on Femslash has been prodded a couple of different ways now. My resources for referencing are limited. If others could help out here, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks ZueJay (talk) 04:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's certainly notable. Check out GoogleScholar. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Dev. Added some sources from those searches. Another editor has removed the Notability tag (wheh - the 150 MB of word files on my computer are still femslash and notable), but more sources are still needed. ZueJay (talk) 01:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Femslash]] 

message: Can anyone read Portuguese?  I've placed the LGBT Project banner on Rosely Roth, but before I add her to the list of people, I'd like to verify that she is a lesbian.  Help? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, none of them actually say she is a lesbian, but it's quite implicit. I don't think there can be any doubt about it, considering her entire career. :-P Cheers Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 10:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portuguese? 

message: There was an untagged request for a merge and a bit of discussion on Talk:Klein Sexual Orientation Grid about merging the Klein grid article into the Kinsey scale article. Rather than that, I thought that the two articles should be merged into a third new article, Measures of Sexual Orientation (as a suggestion), leaving the redirects in place, of course. There is a longish comment by me on the Klein talk page.  Right now, one article (Klein) is a stub, the other a start class. Continue to discuss on (to be created) Talk:Measures of Sexual Orientation rather than here? Or where? I'm not sure on process for this kind of discussion. Any thoughts? — Becksguy 16:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no discussion on Kinsey scale so I left well enough alone but did comment at Talk:Klein Sexual Orientation Grid that I feel both articles should be developed and simply reference each other appropriately. Other article can then reference either or both for issues that are well sourced. Benjiboi 10:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging Kinsey Scale & Kein Grid into new article: Measures of Sexual Orientation 

message: Jacques Teyssier is on our list of people to be referenced and I'm unable to find reliable sources in English, though Google News does return  several results in French and German (scroll through to find the ones that don't have a price or the word "Subscription").  If someone could a) verify that he's gay, and b) verify that he's notable for something other than being Volker Beck's boyfriend, I'd much appreciate it!  Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This link is talking about the LSVD's campaign in the UN last year for recognition in the UN (I think).  I am certain that this news article refers to Teyssier as the spokesman (Sprecher) for the LSVD.  What sort of information are you looking to add into the article (this link is more about the organization than about him) I'll continue looking through these results to see what I can find. CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 03:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing shows up when combining his name with "homosexuel," "pede" or "gay". Haiduc 03:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The LSVD's website says that he is the treasurer and that he was among two to represent the LSVD at the first conference of the 'year of equal rights' in Europe (which I am not familiar with).  And he's definitely queer.  His name turns up plenty of results with 'homosexuelle'  and 'schwule'  on the German google.  I'm having a hard time believing that he's notable enough to garner an article for just himself, though. CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 03:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I was afraid of.  He's somebody's boyfriend, which unfortunately doesn't satisfy WP:N :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Time to prod then? CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 05:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not be bold and merge it into Volker Beck, which could have a brief discussion about his partner? That way people who search for Jacques Teyssier still find out about him (and in the context that they're most likely to have heard of him)... WjBscribe 08:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  French or German speakers? 

message: Her schedule isn't made public that I can see. She does book signings all over the US. She lives half her time in LA and the other half in Birmingham, AL. Does anyone know how to contact a publisher to get her schedule?Moni3 15:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone in LA or Alabama to get [[Fannie Flagg]] photo? 

message: I'm still learning here, obviously. Not sure how to go about getting reassessed for quality, but can I get a reassessment on 2 articles I've been working on from Stub to a higher class? Desert Hearts and Patience and Sarah?  Both are under different projects as well as LGBT - films and novels. Do I need to have those projects reassess the articles for quality, too? Was thinking of submitting a DYK for either or both and one of the first rule says they can't be Stub class articles. What if it's start class under one project and stub class under another?Moni3 16:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've upgraded it. I went ahead and graded it for the films and novels project too, so that you can submit it to DYK. They can change the grading if they feel it necessary, but I think it's pretty clear it's no longer a stub. Kudos on the job with the article, btw. :-) Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 17:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sweet! Yay!! Anyone care to reassess Patience and Sarah?  Moni3 18:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and assessed it too (forgot you had mentioned two articles, heh). ;-P Less clear on this one -Start or B? Would appreciate someone else's input. Cheers! Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 18:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I didn't add the part about the opera, but I think it needs better references, so I'll work on that. Can the B class stay as long as I promise to put better refs to the opera part? And do you (you=anyone) have any idea how hard it is to find references regarding the impact of gay/lesbian books from 1949-1973? I've just about had to give up on my pet Ann Bannon project of the individual book articles. I can't get them past start class. Thanks again, Raystorm! Moni3 18:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I were you, Moni, I would leave it at start, then upgrade it yourself to B when you've reached that point.  There's no policy saying someone else has to re-grade :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See, I didn't know these things. Didn't know I could make all my articles Good Article class if I felt like it...Not that I'm going to do that, but still... Moni3 20:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's actually the one grade (+ FA, for obvious reasons) you can't put for yourself. ;-) It has to be evaluated by another person following the standard GA routine (nomination, eternal wait, corrections, etc...). Although you could grade yourself the article, it's not a bad idea to ask someone else to do it. Main contributors tend to be protective of their babies. ;-) Cheers Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 21:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reassessment from Stub to...? 

message: Heyall, I have a question about scrolling tags and, I guess, scrolling in general. My understanding was that scrolling tags and other templates were discouraged as they didn't work in some web browsers and had readability issues (like interpretive software for sight impaired users, etc.). The Feminists For Life article has the tag "Articleissues" on it to see what I mean. I personally find them hard to use but if they are considered the best option to replace multiple tags then so be it. Comments, ideas, alternatives? Benjiboi 19:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've recently been told, scrolling boxes are discouraged for several reasons - readability, accessibility, printing, site mirroring, and browser-compatibility.  Plus (IMHO) it looks terrible! :) I've left word with the template-talk page and with some more knowledgeable template creators to have that changed. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. I've never seen a tag like thatb here before. It works fine on my browser, but as SatyrTN said, it looks dreadful! I would can it on aesthetic grounds alone. Jeffpw 20:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Thanks for the info! Benjiboi 03:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Work, grrl!  Is there a "Beautification Barnstar"?  Oh - wait - here it is :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scrolling tag questions 

message: Afd discussion here 
It seems to me that this article is simply an advert for the show without any particularly useful information in it. (Pi 21:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[BloomingOUT]] Gay radio show up for deletion 

message: There is this marriage by Joshua Beh and Jessie Chung in Kuching, Malaysia. Joshua is a male, while Jessie was born male (Jeffrey), now a lady. Their marriage is not recognized by Malaysian law. And i dont think Jessie's sex change is recognised. Would this fall under same-sex marriage? Which category would this fall under. If i created an article on Jessie Chung will it satisfy the notability criteria? Thanks and Good day.. :) kawaputratorque 06:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont think that we can call it same-sex marriage if the state doesnt recognise it. I have lesbian friends who performed a wedding in the UK before same sex unions came in and so their marriage wouldnt have been recognised due to there not being same-sex marriage allowed by law at that time. I think the same must apply in this case (Pi 10:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur, in the movie Shotgun the female couple had one who was still transitioning so they quickly married to be legally married before the driver's license was amending to reflect that she was no longer male. The marriage was legal by sttae standards though. Benjiboi 15:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Same sex marriage in Malaysia 

message: Is Baltimora a band or a person? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it's a pseudonym of Jimmy McShane (Pi 10:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baltimora 

message: Does anyone have the Nancy Adair book "Word is Out"?  Is her coming out story one of the ones presented? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Word is Out" 

message: I just started the article Gender binary. Take a look if you're interested and please peer review. --Ephilei 02:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gender binary]] 

message: Could someone please take this image  and stripe it diagonally with the rainbow flag? Please? Thanks. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Dev920, if you haven't gotten that resolved yet I found Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve to be quite helpful. Benjiboi 01:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: What in the world is this for, Dev!?!? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 13:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *"You are dead in the eyes of the WikiProject LGBT studies" barnstar?  --David Shankbone 14:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the ghost of gay cabals future. Benjiboi 15:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Commons, please! X-D Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 16:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   :-) - Alison ☺ 17:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Alison!!! ;-D Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 17:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Graphic Design request 

message: It seems that we have a new, rather confrontational vandal attacking the transgender article and putting some very inflammatory statements in the talk page. I've had to refrain from responding to the most recent remarks because I'm completely unable to form a civil response to them. This vandal has so far been  and . Their general claims (all completely unreferenced) are:
# Gay men are being forced into sex changes as an alternative to death in Iran
# Transgender people are homophobic and are trying to distance themselves from LGB
# Crossdressers are gay and only dress to have sex with other men (contradicts existing ref in article)
Perhaps someone from the gay cabal might like to have a quiet word with them? :p --AliceJMarkham 07:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been pretty entertaining so far and (gasp) I've actually learned something when I was trying so hard not to! This reminds me of an idea I had for rainbow burkas which I'm glad I never did. But they would have been fab! Benjiboi 17:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confrontational vandal at [[Transgender]] 

message: Thanks to the amazing help of Siabef (one of my admin pals at es:wiki), we now have our brand new, shiny & registered, official (did I say new?) IRC channel!!! ;-) Simply register your desired nicks following normal irc procedures (it will make things easier in the long run, though it's not a prerequisite), and join irc://irc.freenode.net/LGBTproject. Enjoy! :-) Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 12:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not working for me. It says, "Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because the protocol (irc) isn't associated with any program.".Zigzig20s 14:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's weird, because I'm talking with Dev there. :) Perhaps you should download X-Chat before joining #LGBTproject? Check out this tutorial, you may find it helpful. :-)  Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 14:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Zig, just go here and put in #LGBTproject. It'll be easier for you. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We are having a blast at the irc channel, just so those people who haven't visited us know (you know who you are). ;-) Cheers Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 18:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aside from once when I should have been in bed asleep, it's always been empty (aside from Dev's away placeholder) when I've been in there. :( --AliceJMarkham 01:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, we've talked about that there Alice. I'm really sorry about it (did you see the message we put for you at the top?), but you being in Australia makes it somewhat difficult to synchronize with the other user's time zones. Keep trying though! :-) Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 19:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd say 8ish pm, CEST. :-) Someone took out the message, I'll see if I can put it back up. Cheers! Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 17:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: *CEST. That's UTC+2.  I'm on UTC+10, so 8pm CEST = 6pm UTC = 4am Australian Eastern Standard Time... Maybe some other time. :) --AliceJMarkham 11:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. Well, maybe if one day we all stay until 12pm-1 am CEST, and you wake up really early... ;-D People do log on at very odd hours on weekends, you know... Raystorm   (¿Sí?) 12:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT project IRC Channel 

message: Please see Talk:Twinkie defense#Request for comment: Twinkie defense content dispute. This article RfC is was initiated per the Dispute resolution process. Please see WP:RFC, particularly the section on Request comment on articles, for information about this process. Please maintain civility if you choose to comment. Thanks. --Yksin 01:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Twinkie defense RfC initiated

message: Just wanted to let folks know that I've established a new site: The LGBT Hate Crimes Project. I will continue researching and writing lengthier articles there. Along with that I will add summaries to Violence against LGBT people of the cases I'm writing up, and citations to the LGBT Hate Crimes Project. I've added a summary of the murders of Ukea Davis and Stephanie Thomas to the list at Violence against LGBT people along with a citation, and added a citation to the Erica Keel summary as well. 
I haven't quite figured out how to tell when an article satisfies the guidelines well enough to be safely posted here. But if I end up writing about something that obviously passes muster I'll also post it here.TerranceDC 00:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT Hate Crimes Project 

message: If there are any politically minded US folks interested in monitoring the articles of 2008 US Presidential candidates, help would be appreciated. I just ran through all the political positions articles, those that had them, for their position on LGBT issues, trying to establish neutrality, and cleanup wikilinks and language/terminology; I haven't had a chance to review the main candidate articles yet. The quickest way to see who's running is to look at :Template:United States presidential election, 2008 navigation. We have to remember to keep an eye on things we won't necessarily put the project tag on. Thanks! ZueJay (talk) 03:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2008 US presidential candidates 

message: Anonymous IP vandals seem to be very upset that Jón Þór Birgisson is gay, and are determined to remove this information from his Wikipedia article.  The article has been vandalized at least 13 times.  My request for semi-protection was denied on the basis that the vandalism wasn't frequent enough.  (???)
I'm going away for a week and won't be able to keep an eye on this article.  If you kind folks wouldn't mind keeping an eye out for vandalism, I'd really appreciate it!  :)  Popkultur 16:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do. Anon IPs are going to be the death of me yet. Jeffpw 16:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jón Þór Birgisson 

message: Another editor and I have been .. discussing .. whether or not the :Category:Homophobia belongs on articles about people - specifically Garry Bushell, but it looks like Anita Bryant, Bill Whatcott, Colin Ireland, Eric Robert Rudolph, Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford, Glenn Bahr, James Anderton, Jerry Falwell, Kevin Tebedo, Mike Mendoza, and Tony Marco are all there as well.
IMHO, with the exception of Bryant and Fallwell, none of these people should be there.  First, people aren't homophobia.  They may be homophobic, but they aren't a fear or aversion.
BTW, seems this incident has sparked another deletion discussion for the cat.
Anyway, thoughts anyone? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a WikiProject Discrimination that this might fall under. Might it be worth it to get them involved for the articles on acts of discrimination and the people who advocated for the acts?  --Moni3 14:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - I've posted there for an opinion as well. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Homophobia 

message: List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/W-Z has been promoted to a "Featured List". Yaay! :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 22:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Featured List 

message: Another of those well-meaning Wikipedians has been removing our project tag fro the article. This is not the first time it's happened since the good Senator's trolling for dick has made headlines, and it won't be the last. I warned the user, but the article bears watching. Jeffpw 20:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Larry Craig]] needs watching 

message: Is there anything anyone wishes to raise in the project newsletter? I'm going to try and get it finished tomorrow and sent off then, so the deadline's tight! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newsletter 

message: Assistance in explaining why being jailed for sodomy qualifies da Vinci for the :Category:People prosecuted under anti-homosexuality laws. An editor seems to be POV pushing, using the argument "because da Vinci was actually accused of violating a law which prohibited sodomy and not homosexuality (the sexual attraction to members of the same sex). A law prohibiting homosexuality would be impossible to enforce" and "dubbing laws prohibiting sodomy as 'anti-homosexual' is just as absurd as designating laws prohibiting traditional rape as 'anti-heterosexual.'" Pairadox 00:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The rape comment is bizarre. Rape is a crime because the act is against one party's will. Sodomy between two consenting adults cannot be equated with rape. Were there similar laws prohibiting male-female anal sex in Italy during da Vinci's time? If not, then it's anti-homosexual. --Moni3 03:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Leonardo da Vinci]] 

message: So, there's this problem cropping up regarding Iowa, US in SSM and related articles and templates. My understanding is that, for a short while, any pairing could legally marry in Polk, County, Iowa after a judicial ruling. Shortly after (next business day) the judge placed a "stay" on the ruling while an appeal was being made. Thus, non-heterosexual pairs can not marry at this time in Iowa. Is this interpretation correct? How do we address this limbo status? I see Iowa added (by IPs) to various articles and templates in a fashion that indicates it is currently legal - should these be flat out rv'd? I honsetly don't have the time (or patience, right now) to clarify this every time someone drops it in to an article. Please, some feedback on this would be really helpful. Thanks, ZueJay (talk) 03:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Same-sex marriage in Iowa]] 

message: Quadell removed Christina Aguilera's entry on /A, citing "BLP" reasons. A long discussion has since ensued on the BLP noticeboard and Talk:Christina. I don't really care what the chaps at Talk:Christina do, but on /A it's largely my word against Quadell's. Could more people comment on this, because this debate is going nowhere between just me and him. Ta, Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd chime in, but SatyrTN said what I was going to. --Moni3 13:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of LGB people/A and Christina Aguilera. 

message: An idea that has been bounced around for a while is some kind of group that editors can sign up to to take photos of people, places, and events in their area. Would anyone be interested in this/willing to thrash out a workable proposal? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but a system that actually works. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo workgroup 

message: Is this article of interest to this Wikiproject? If so, please add the project tag to the talk page of that article. If not, please make a comment in talk. Many thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Has the project tag been removed again? I have given up counting how many times homophobic editors have removed it. <sigh. I will add it once again. Jeffpw 19:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Jeff, why is Craig of interest to the project?  Just looking for opinions, not objecting. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 20:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It falls under LGBT studies for a variety of issues: how LGBT issues are seen in the media; cottaging; how anti-gay public officials who are accused of gay behavior are portrayed and the response to them; toe tapping and gay sex signals; and without a doubt, the heart of the controversy is...Craig's sexuality and record. This tag does not identify him as an LGBT person, it simply means there are issues present that are of relevance to the LGBT WikiProject. --David Shankbone 23:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Larry Craig]] 

message: Due to prompting from Dev920, I've now created the article cleavage enhancement, which I've been intending to do for quite some time...
If anybody thinks that there is something worth putting in dyk, you're welcome to do so.
Now, how do this fit into jump-a-class? :) --AliceJMarkham 08:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! I always wondered how that was done :) Fascinating article - Alison ☺ 08:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is sooo clever. :) I don't know how complete it is, but I think we usually treat newly created articles as stubs, so it would be stub to start/B. Go add yourself! :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *What, no bonus point for starting from less than a stub? :) --AliceJMarkham 10:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, Alice! What a great, informative article! And thank you for uploading those pictures, too. The article works much better with illustrations. Definitely worth submitting to DYK. The part about Julia Roberts might be a good factoid to use to get people to the article. Jeffpw 17:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *If you'd like to submit it, you're welcome. I am not familiar with the DYK process and will be fairly busy for about the next two days or so but don't want to miss the window of opportunity! --AliceJMarkham 23:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cleavage enhancement]] 

message: Hi folks - given the recent anti-gay slur by Jerry Lewis, you may be interested in watching this page and helping to maintain an appropriate account of the event.  Thanks! Popkultur 19:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think adding information about a momentary lapse of judgment during a point of exhaustion in the scheme of Lewis' 50+ year career is a way to "stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details" as suggested at Wikipedia:What is a good article?. -- Jreferee (Talk) 18:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jerry Lewis 

message: At Talk:Clay Aiken, there is a seemingly endless debate as whether to include in the article materials suggesting that Clay may (or may not) be gay. Your thoughtful opinion on this at Talk:Clay Aiken would be most appreciated. -- Jreferee (Talk) 18:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't characterize it as "materials suggesting that Clay may (or may not) be gay". Rather the materials are quotations from Aiken in response to questions about his sexual orientation. But yes, more input would be helpful.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 21:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk:Clay Aiken 

message: This is a stub article on a British play performed in 2006, written by Stuart Draper and apparently part of Fringe Theatre. This play is about the controversial issue of the existence/identity of W.H., who may, or may not, have been the young male object of Shakespeare's affections. It's speculated that W.H. is Willie Hughes, among others. Anyway, I removed the prod based on having found sufficient sources (I think) to establish notability, although some are more about about the concept of W.H., and not Drapper's play, per se. Any one know enough about this subject to suggest what is the best thing to do with it?  See the talk page. — Becksguy 08:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To W.H. 

message: The Homosexuality in animals article is in dire need of work, but two recent editors have been making extremely poor changes (such removing the intro entirely). I suggest experienced LGBT project editors help improve this article, as their objections to the poor style and content of the intro and other sections has merit, but they seem to not understand some elements of basic article writing. Cheers, VanTucky (talk) 21:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done some work on the lede, formatted all refs, general formatting and added images to the different animal sections. It's starting to look like a real article but could use more attention and fresh eyes to check it over. Benjiboi 03:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesomeness!  WB, btw :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Homosexuality in animals]] needs attention 

message: Franklin E. Kameny says that Kameny founded the Mattachine Society with Jack Nichols, making no mention of Harry Hay. But the Mattachine Society article says it was founded by "Harry Hay with a small group of friends". Which is right? Whatever it is, we need sources for this info! Dybryd 01:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've just googled, and site says it was Kameny and Nichols, without Hay. Dybryd 01:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Aha! Apparently Kameny/Nichols founded the Washington branch some time later. I will try to clarify this in the articles for the benefit of clueless fellows like myself. Dybryd 01:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to "Before Stonewall" (Bullough, Vern L., 1978, p. 78), the original group was the "Mattachine Foundation", started by Harry Hay, Rudi Gernreich, Robert Hull, Charles Dennison Rowland, and Dale Jennings in 1950.  In 1953 (Hay says), a more "conservative" group, including Hal Call, "took the organization out of the founders' hands" (Call's words), and formed the "Mattachine Society." -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who founded the Mattachine Society? 

message: Babur is currently a GA article.  It's in our project - Dev added the banner noting that glbtq.com mentions his sexuality.  I've also found this ref:
:
If there's anyone on the project who knows more about Babur, Central Asia ca. 1483, etc (not hard to do :), could you take a look at the article and find where his personal life fits in?  Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. I have a vague recollection that I did add a thing some months back about how he had a thing for beautiful young men, maybe it got removed? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Babur Needs Help! 

message: I am going to be moving off Wikipedia, mostly.  The photography will still be there, but I am going to concentrate on doing interviews.  I am in the process of preparing interviews with Edmund White, Jim McGreevey, Evan Wolfson and Vivien Goldman and I am asking the project to help me formulate questions, and if you have any good resources for research to leave them at the pages above.  --David Shankbone 14:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will have nothing to do with Wikinews, and they are a waste of your time too, David. Do you not recall what happened the last time you were there? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I understand how you feel, but I think your advice that if we don't engage but give up, then we will lose out.  Jimbo helped to get the accreditation moving along.  This is also an opportunity to get the articles improved via interviews that we create ourselves.  I won't do the interviews without press accreditation, although I will do a couple to start off with.  I'm a little burned out on Wikipedia, though, and I feel Wikinews will be a good fresh start.  I've already made it clear that without accreditation I will retire from the Wikimedia projects and focus on writing my book.  At this point, I want to develop a new skill, as I did with the photography.  The skill of the interview.  I have enough contacts to get some good ones.  It is a chance for all of us to ask questions we want asked.  I'm not afraid to ask or say anything.  And look at it this way, Dev - you'll have a friend over there.  --David Shankbone 15:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds Kewl, DSB! Are you going to start WikiBureau LGBT or WikiBureau NYC? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure...maybe!  I've been on Wikinews all of one day, so once I get my bearings I will be able to break more ground.  Are you interested in being a member if I do?  --David Shankbone 15:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, this is all going exactly according to my master plan. :) Members are setting out sister projects right left and center, we now have a thriving Spanish project, A.Z. just started the Portuguese one, and now you're moving into Wikinews (and you're completely right David, though I'll miss you here. :) *sighs with happiness* Now if only we could get the enwiki one moving a bit faster again... :D Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You taught us well, Dev.  So click on the links under those names and help me devise some good interviews!  Vivien Goldman will probably be the first; and very interesting!  Check out her WP page.  --David Shankbone 14:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikinews Interviews with gay leaders 

message: May I please get feedback (even assistance) regarding Yellow Head (person)#Yellow Head, the berdache?
# Should the current article be split into 3 different articles, making the article about Yellow Head, the berdache, be a "start" while making the articles for the other two people named Yellow Head each be a stub?  And if splitting how should the three be named?
# Since in the Ojibwa culture, Yellow Head, the berdache, was considered to be a woman and not a man, so how should the non-direct-quotation portions be re-worded such that this is refected as such.  However, please keep in mind that in the Anishinaabe language, there are no words for "he" or "she"... just "animate being" and "inanimate being" of which both a male and a female are one in the same - both are "animate beings".
Suggestion (even edits) would be appreciated.  Miigwech CJLippert 14:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved here from the portal talk page -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 20:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: With regards to item two, I would say to use the same protocol for a transgendered person, ie use the pronoun relevant to the person's perceived social gender. In this case, that gender is female so "she" and "her" would be appropriate. TechBear 20:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would definitely start it as its own article, it's confusing right now what's going on and even a little fleshing out to provide some background of what tribe  (and country? was that in there?) would help explain the significance of this person. Benjiboi 22:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, I would title something like Yellow Head (two-spirit) as Berdache is not considered appropriate. Benjiboi 22:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yellow Head 

message: Um, stumbled across this article, Lesbian race, while checking changes made to templates LGBT and LGBT-footer. It seems a bit contrived, and hinges on non-inline references which never use the phrase "Lesbian race", which Googles only ~950 hits most of which read "Lesbian:race and ethnicity". I'm not sure what to do with it - can I just nom for deletion? Speedy? Help?! ZueJay (talk) 00:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the creator & only contributer thus far is  -- a fairly new editor, a bit inexperienced.  Mainly this editor has worked on lesbian topics.  I would assume good faith with this editor, but perhaps write to her (I'm guessing it's a her, anyway, given the topic she's editing) on her talk page, & try to ascertain what she's on about.  She created a redirect page to this article called Lesbian utopia, which seems to be the overall idea driving her -- a sort of politically driven ideal of a nation based on reproduction by parthenogenesis -- which has had some relevance to some lesbian separatists; I'm not sure about it's notability though.  And in its current state the article seems to have a lot of original research in it -- as a new editor, she may not be aware of such policies.  I'd personally recommend that this article & Lesbian utopia be switched, so that Lesbian utopia become the actual article, as there is a lot of utopian or semi-utopian fiction out there that posits a female-only & lesbian society (e.g., Sally Miller Gearhart's The Wanderground, or the work of Suzy McKee Charnas), with this biological stuff being included in answer to "would such societies really be possible?" In sum, I think maybe this editor just needs some guidance on Wikipedia policies & the advice & help of other editors, rather than a speedy on her article. --Yksin 00:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw that too, and didn't know what to do with it. Is there another article that addresses lesbian separatists in the same vein as written by Charlotte Perkins Gilman (Herland) or Katherine V. Forrest's Daughters of a Coral Dawn series? Or discusses the separatist movement in the 70s? In one of the articles I read for Patience and Sarah, a commune of women wore the novel around their necks...There is a place for an article that discusses radical lesbian separatism, but I don't think it should be titled "race". There's no ethnicity or anthropological feature connected to lesbianism.  --Moni3 00:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't forget A Door into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski (and in fact her other books in the "Daughter of Elysium" series. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Lesbian separatism redirects to Separatist feminism, which has just a brief section on lesbian separatism -- a pretty inadequate one, & its one literature reference is to a lesbian separatist community depicted in the Gaea trilogy novels of John Varley (which are actually pretty good, & in my opinion fair in their depiction of lesbianism though in novels written by a man).  I think lesbian separatism deserves its own article; but I also don't think what this editor is driving at is exactly the same thing.  Seems to me she wants something like what novels that have lesbian societies in them -- like Gearhart's, Charnas' Holdfast Chronicles (which aren't exactly utopic), Gilman's, Forrest's -- but in actual biological fact.  But better probably to ask her, & bring her into this conversation.  Or bring this conversation to her. --Yksin 00:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dropped a note on the user's talkpage. Can't believe ya'll saw that and made no comment! Whoa is me! ZueJay (talk) 01:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dropped a note too, with a link back to this discussion & also invited her to join the project. I hope we'll see her here. --Yksin 01:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think "race" is the right title for this, either. But I am in full support of having a lesbian separatism article, which I can see including the "lesbian Utopia" article as well as the information in this one. I suspect most people would never think to look up "lesbian race" as a search term, and thus would miss this.Kootenayvolcano 01:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, "race" is not a good word for this. It may be a matter of User765 not knowing the best name for it herself. I actually see a place for two articles: Lesbian separatism and Lesbian utopia (both of which are currently redirects, to Separatist feminism & Lesbian race, respectively).  Anyway, I'm adding the LGBT project template to the talk page for this article, & maybe we can continue this discussion there. --Yksin 01:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I've copied this entire conversation to this point to the article talk page, to provide context for continuing discussion there. --Yksin 16:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Lesbian race]] 

message: Do these subjects belong to this project? I'm having a difficult time accepting that it's OK for adults, no matter what sexual preference, who think it's OK to have sex with children. Please help me understand the relevance. As there are enough people who think homosexuality is "bad" and now to add these categories in this topic. It's embarrassing. It makes things worse for others to take it seriously. Please help. - Jeeny Talk 02:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With a quick review I would say that pederasty probably does and although culturally it's currently associated with child sexual abuse it was not always so and speaks to relationships between adults and those who are yet to be considered adults (including teenagers). Recall that in the good old days people routinely were married as pre-teens so using our standards applied to other cultures doesn't always fly. And what one culture considers an adult might vary greatly from another. I also know that GLBT kids are coming out at younger ages and all kids seem to be much more sexually experimental so these issues do support inclusion.Benjiboi 03:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Pedophilia, however, speaks to sexual relations with pre-pubescent children so I doubt that would get much mileage here unless there was a big upswing in pedophiles kidnapping GLBT kids and good luck proving all of that. There is a wikiproject just for pedophilia articles so they might be able to clarify the overlap, if any. Benjiboi 03:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand, but would others? I guess I shouldn't concern myself with how others may look at it, huh? Thanks for your reply. - Jeeny Talk 03:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jeeny, you are not alone. The Greeks also criticized those who abused children. But they treated teenagers differently - as indeed most countries do today. I would oppose anyone trying to hang an LGBT tag on pedophilia, but pederasty is a very different matter. Did you take a look at those muscular quasi-adults depicted on the Greek vases? Or did you read the stories of the eromenoi who murdered their lovers, for a variety of reasons. Greek youths were not to be trifled with, and were hardly "children", all the more so considering the brevity of life those days. And much the same thing can be said of other times and traditions. This is our history. Let's not trash it to please the hoi polloi. Haiduc 04:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just it, I don't want to trash being gay what-so-ever, but this statement from GLAAD says, "In 1994 the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) adopted a "Position Statement Regarding NAMBLA" saying GLAAD "deplores the North American Man Boy Love Association's (NAMBLA) goals, which include advocacy for sex between adult men and boys and the removal of legal protections for children. These goals constitute a form of child abuse and are repugnant to GLAAD." Also in 1994 the Board of Directors of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF) adopted a resolution on NAMBLA that said: "NGLTF condemns all abuse of minors, both sexual and any other kind, perpetrated by adults. Accordingly, NGLTF condemns the organizational goals of NAMBLA and any other such organization.". And I agree. I have many friends and family of the Gay and Lesbian community, and they too feel the same way. Oh, and Pederasty is included. Children is the line in the sand, teenagers count (of course the age difference if it is small, like four years, it's OK). Those Greek youth may have been big and strong physically, but that does not mean that they did not have fragile psyches (maybe why they killed their lovers). It's difficult enough growing up thinking one is different as it is, and then to have older adults take advantage of that by having sex with them. Kids cannot give consent in the same way as adults. It's exploitation. And I am no hoi polloi. - Jeeny Talk 04:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I was suggesting that you not cave in to the desire to please the hoi polloi. As for the rest, I think we are saying the same thing but talking past each other. Of course children are out of the game, but if you go by current laws in most developed countries, teenagers are empowered to enter into relationships at some age or another. Let's not presume to disempower them here by turning them into victims. If a relationship is legal we should not intrude with our opinions. After all, the LGBT community in the UK fought to extend the right to enter into relationships to sixteen year old boys. Are we going to trash them too, to please the puritan taliban? And Oscar Wilde? Into the trash can because he was not into men, and did it from the front? Give me a break! Haiduc 04:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm talking about age of consent, whatever that is. I'm in the US, and each state is different. I think the range is 14-18, or maybe it's 16-18 depending on the state. But there are some conditions. Today things are different, we live longer, children can have a longer childhood before all the adult crap we have to deal with. Ahh, I guess we have to rely on WP:RS rather than our opinions anyway, like my wise friend of 19 says. :) - Jeeny Talk 04:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the articles involving pederasty are well-written enough, they should explain themselves. The terms pederast and pedophile are almost interchangeable now, but they weren't always. I would rather explain the difference on Wikipeida than refuse to discuss it at all, thereby neglecting mention of homosexuality in ancient cultures. If we present factual information that's reliable and verifiable, we can't control how people will interpret or spin that information for their own agendas. --Moni3 11:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think Pederasty certainly falls within the scope of our project, but cannot see why Pedophilia would. The reasons for each should be obvious after reading the articles. But I am a bit confused. Jeeny, wouldn't it have been better to remove the project tag from Pederasty after this discussion was completed rather than before starting it? I have reverted your edit, and would ask that you not remove the project tag again until consensus is reached, from this or any other article. I have had to look through your edit history in order to revert several tags you deleted which were of obvious relevence to our project. However well intentioned it is, it comes across as vandalism with an agenda and borderline WP:Point when so many are deleted at one time. Jeffpw 05:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Agreed. I think that LGBT detractors have previously labelled pedophilia as being in our scope as a slur towards us, and are likely to try it again. We need to ensure that such attempts are reverted. With there being Wikipedia:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch dedicated to watching the pedophilia articles, I'd suggest that we, as a project request that they assist us in this. --AliceJMarkham 16:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Pederasty]] and [[Pedophilia]] 

message: Hi, so the latest chapter in internet fame Chris Crocker (internet celebrity)'s article is up for deletion and it neatly was nominated at the same time his video vaulted to the top of YouTube (over 4 million views in two days). I think there are plenty of references but I believe because he's way femme and flaming and outspoken he's getting a lot of negative attention as a part of the recent high exposure and I think it's adversely effecting the AfD process. Do number of delete votes alone count? Any advice toward the article and AfD voting concerns appreciated. Benjiboi 20:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quick update. Thanks for all who've helped tag and edit as well as made insightful comments on the AfD page. It's hard to believe the article won't survive the process and now is starting to actually be a good source of information thanks to all the attention. Benjiboi 01:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: In editing this I realize we need an article about drama queens! Benjiboi 14:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Chris Crocker (internet celebrity)]] help & advice please