Talk:Taíno

message: I'm quite astonished that so much fact about current Caribbean culture has been proposed by some contributors, specifically Uyvsdi, as "proof" of Taino existence in modern times.  It is stunning to see that use of Native American customs now makes one Native American in the Caribbean basin.  As far as I know, eating cornbread, grits, chestnuts, hominy and wild leeks (ramps) never made a white hillbilly Cherokee, but I guess that is now not the case.  Taino cultural customs and vocabulary are VERY widespread throughout the Caribbean, as are Southeastern tribal culture (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, you name it) spead throughout the South, and other tribal customs, names, and Indian food use spread throughout the whole of the USA.  Being a fraction Indian does not make you Indian.  Being a fraction Taino does not and will not make me Indian. Of course, I am sure, as most Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, and dark Cubans are, that my very curled hair is in fact Taino, as is my skin color.  I seem to remember many pcitures of Native Americans with afros and such.  Let's stop the game and shoot for accuracy in an encyclopedia.--76.237.201.11 (talk) 01:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Accuracy in an encyclopedia is derived from citing scholarly secondary sources and listing multiple points of view, which are present in the article. Find scholarly sources - personal opinion is insufficient. -Uyvsdi (talk) 02:01, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, you are confusing claims of Taino ancestry with evidence of Amerindian mitochondrial DNA in Caribbean populations.  One can claim to be Taino all they want, but this is not cited nor proved in the article as it is today.  Amerindian mitochondrial DNA is certainly present in the Caribbean, and this is impossible to deny.  What we are shooting for here is a cite to back up claims that it is Taino, as well as cites to back up claims that Taino culture, not the typical Caribbean amalgamation, has somehow surived in various locales in the Caribbean region.  The former is not provable, especially considering the enormous importation of Natives from the srrounding regions to make up for the unrepentant slaughter, death by disease and abuse of Tainos, including Neo-tainos such as Ciboneys and Lucayans.  Please cite to something showing that this is in fact Taino ancestry we are describing, or at least make the language more neutral...such as allowing descent from Taino to be described as a "claim."  I will wholeheartedly concur with you if you can offer some cites to prove that said claims of being Taino, and not just of some other Native American descent, is correct.--69.209.206.253 (talk) 00:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I provided quotes and references from scholarly journals. I encourage you to do the same. -Uyvsdi (talk) 06:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest edits on Taino modern identity 

message: I took History some time ago, but as far as I recall, the Taino are a cultural stage and belong to the same group of people as the Pre-Tainos and Igneri did.  They are all Central American Indians closely related or belonging to, the Arawaks.  Also, they were not Christians so the translation given here of Boriken as something "blah blah Land of the Lord blah" is completely inaccurate and as a Puertorrican it is the FIRST time I have ever heard them term translated.  I also eliminated the sentence mentioning that they called themeselves "Boricuas".  I believe the term Boricua is a modern term, perhaps even originating in New York as a corruption of Borinqueño", as I can't recall any mention of the word in popular art or culture in the mainland of Puerto Rico, and it is (to this date) commonly used in more colloquial terms, while Borinqueño or Borincano are used a bit more formally... 
In any event, I doubt that the Tainos would call themselves anything.  The concept of property and individuality was brought on by Europeans.  I have serious doubts about the idea that they would answer "Oh yes we are Boricua.".  The concept of "tribes", "culture" and "group of people" where probably very alien to them.  It is more likely that the Spaniards came up with the word and coined the term based on the fact that the natives called the place Boriquen.
I invite anyone with the knowledge to come in and add to the article, but please use proper citations.
--Reefpicker (talk) 18:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boriquen / Boricua / Taino 

message: For those who claim that there are no Taino left, how do you explain the Yateras Indians of eastern Cuba? You can read all about them in the anthology "Indigenous Resurgence in the Contemporary Caribbean" by Maximillian Forte, in the chapter “Panchito, Mountain Cacique: Cuban Taino Survivals" by Jose Barreiro. There are historical records of the Yateras Indians fighting for the Spanish in the colonial revolts of the 19th Century. They consider themselves Taino descendants and have been regarded as Indians by their neighbors.
Also, why do skeptics hold Taino claims to such unreasonably high standards? It seems as if you want modern Tainos to be exactly the same as their Pre-Columbian ancestors, whereas many officially-recognized Native Americans in the United States have mixed ancestry, no longer speak their indigenous languages, and live Westernized lifestyles. A great example of this is the Mashantucket Pequot. --96.245.119.190 (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's an ad hominem argument that does not refute any of the actual evidence presented in Forte's book. "History is written by the winners" and does not always reflect reality. The fact of the matter is that DNA evidence has conclusively demonstrated that Taino heritage has survived in the Caribbean, just as it has proven that the Anglo-Saxons merely assimilated the indigenous Britons rather than outright replacing them in England. The story of the Yateras Indians is not all that different from the growing number of recognized Native American tribes that emerged from tri-racial isolates in the eastern United States.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.103.150.125 (talk) 00:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yateras Indians 

message: I do not believe it is misappropriate for a fraternity to use Taino imagery. As they embrace several aspects of Taino culture and celebrate the culture in various ways.  As the section is titled “Taíno heritage in modern times” it is important to note and describe organization that celebrate or feel some type of connection to that culture. Specifically, when an organization embraces a Taino native as it’s symbol of cultural pride. The addition does not make any outlandish claims but instead just notes that this organization has embraced the Taino people as there symbol. 
Monarca7 (talk) 07:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The appropriation Taíno imagery may or may not be offensive but it's not notable (unless published in secondary sources; for instance if it was involved in a court case). -Uyvsdi (talk) 07:19, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not delete your discussion but moved it to the bottom. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:19, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allowing  information about organizations

message: I just reverted the unexplained deletion of the sentence, "Despite this massive decline in population, it is safe to say that there simply wasn't enough of a Spanish military presence to be attributed to the large reduction of native manpower," from the section on Population decline. That sentence appears to have two citations just for itself. I do not have ready access to the sources, so I cannot verify that the cited sources support the statement. However, the statement seems to me to be awkwardly worded and not encyclopedic in tone. Any suggestions? -- Donald Albury 23:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible problem with sentence 

message: Shouldn't it be told that the two Dominican girls are actually mulattoes, and not Indians? Ok, it's told that it's carnival, but it's still misleading. --Lecen (talk) 00:37, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dominican girls 

message: "Cuba, the smallest island of the Antilles ...."  This can't be correct.  Probably "largest" is meant but I don't know. OldAndTired (talk) 21:37, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introductory Material 

message: Please give complete refernce to "Chrisp 2006, p. 34." --Finn Bjørklid (talk) 22:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing reference 

message: The lede has the following, "In the Greater Antilles, the northern Lesser Antilles, and The Bahamas, they were known as the Lucayans." There is a citation to 'Alegría, Ricardo E. "Taínos" in Christopher Columbus Encyclopedia vol. 1, p. 345. New York: Simon and Schuster 1992.' I don't have access to Alegria, but, even if the Alegria source extends the term "Lucayan" to all of the Antilles, the preponderance of sources restrict the term to the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos Islands. - Donald Albury 15:21, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of 'Lucayan' 

message: How will the Mythology section differ from the existing Spirituality section? If the Mythology section is not started within a day or two I will delete it. We should not leave empty sections in articles. If the Mythology section duplicates or largely overlaps the Spiritualogy section, they will be merged. - Donald Albury 16:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't thought of it. I've hidden those versions and added copyvio templates to both user pages. - Donald Albury 21:46, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mythology section 

message: I think this section has a tone that is quite un-encyclopedic. I am also uncomfortable with the point of view. I did not remove the section because I can see the possiblity of some useful being made of it, but I think it needs work. I will work on improving it, but do want to hear other opinions. - Donald Albury 20:08, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for bringing attention to this.  I'll add that two sources are cited in the section repeatedly: One is a dead link, and the other is completely unrelated to the Tainos.--MattMauler (talk) 20:18, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for noting that. I hadn't looked at the sources. - Donald Albury 21:48, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

text: I took a closer look at those citations, and deleted one repeatedly reused in other parts of the article as well as in this section, because it linked to a web page that did not even mention Taino. I also removed the dead link from the other citation, as it has not been archived. The citation seems to conflate a newspaper article about an interview with David McLellan and a book about Karl Marx written by McLellan, but McLellan has written several books about Marx. - Donald Albury 01:56, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been reading and checking sources in a very long-winded dispute (but not contributing to it) on the talk page of another article most of the day, and didn't have the heart to start a conversation here. I've boldly edited the section to try to make it more encyclopedic in tone, as I felt that it contained information worth keeping. Carlstak (talk) 01:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taino descendants today section 

message: See this diff for the copyrighted content that was added on Oct. 21, 2013.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 07:38, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the diff, Eloquent Peasant. I've amended the text to make it less closely paraphrased. Carlstak (talk) 01:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright issue 

message: Hi, this claim in the article 'A smallpox epidemic in Hispaniola in 1518–1519 killed almost 90% of the surviving Taíno' is not true. It cites an old article from 1972 and a book on the global sugar industry. Historians who deal specifically with the topic like Massimo Livi Bacci stress that the changes associated with the European arrival, including forced labor etc, caused the massive depopulation and epidemics were merely an auxiliary factor, especially since the first major epidemic did not occur for 20 years after arrival yet the population was already dropping massively beforehand. Papers that are more specific about the topic in question are much better sources for a specific claim like this one. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/38903 181.118.13.77 (talk) 16:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smallpox epidemic 

message: frame|center|Tainos
The Taíno were an Arawak people who were the indigenous people of the Caribbean and Florida.At the time of European contact in the late 15th century,they were the principal inhabitants of most of Cuba,Jamaica,Hispaniola(the Dominican Republic and Haiti),and Puerto Rico.
--72.27.118.182 (talk) 13:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social Studies13:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[[Special:Contributions/72.27.118.182|72.27.118.182]] ([[User talk:72.27.118.182|talk]]) 

message: I have marked a citation to RacandHistory.com as possibly self-published. At the top of the site's home page it states, "A community of volunteers committed to social development." While articles have authors listed, I see no signs of any kind of editorial process. This looks like a group blog, which would make it a non-reliable source per :Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources. Convince me otherwise, or I will remove the citation. - Donald Albury 19:20, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Found on the same site, this and this is WP:FRINGE material related to pseudohistorical Afrocentrism. If they publish stuff like this without comment or editorial control, then this site is not an WP:RSN and shouldn't be used to cite anything on Wikipedia. Heiro 20:14, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember a way of looking for urls across the site, but don't recall how to use it. There seems to be a cluster of similar sites, including trinicenter.com, africaspeaks.com, amonhotep.com, howcomyoucom.com, rootsie.com, and probably others we should look at. We probably need to take the wider discussion elsewhere, but start with raceandhistory.com at the RS noticeboard. - Donald Albury 23:03, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Raceandhistory.com a group blog? 

message: I think this page should be requested for semi protection. Too many neo-Tainos vandalising it. Ddum5347 (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In my personal opinion, the rate of problem edits on this article does not really justify semi-protection at this time. I know that there are other admins who also watch this page, and since they have not acted to semi-protect, I suspect they are of much the same opinion. If the pace of problem edits picks up, I may change my mind, but in the meantime I think there are enough eyes on the page to deal with such edits in a timely manner. - Donald Albury 19:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: We'll see how this continues. Ddum5347 (talk) 19:17, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's time. This vandalism continues non-stop.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have you made a request at :Wikipedia:Requests for page protection? As I have actively edited this page, I do not feel I should protect the page myself. - Donald Albury 22:30, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protect request 

message: The use of the past tense to describe the Taino people who are not extinct and still inhabit their land. The fact the page has been locked is embarrassing especially after the concerns voiced by many Taino people. 2001:B07:6461:5B94:E8A9:ECF2:C02E:9BB4 (talk) 08:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources for policies applying to what information can be included in Wikipedia. - Donald Albury 15:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

text: I made this edit based on the official recognition by the USVI government. Please continue providing such links to articles, books, etc., which may provide the WP community the right amount and quality of information to re-assess the issue of past vs. present tenses. You should keep in mind, however, that secondary sources will be the most convincing sources, especially books published by respected publishing houses or articles that have been peer-reviewed. Newspapers (e.g., The St. Thomas Source) are considered primary sources and major decisions are rarely made based only on newspaper articles.  Mercy11 (talk) 01:58, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taíno erasure 

message: === 18 December 2021 ===
In the sentence "The Taíno were an indigenous people of the Caribbean.", change the word "were" to "are". Mtgarcia369 (talk) 18:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:18, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. I see the sources, which should help, but this needs to be discussed. There is active discussion in the section above. Please reach consensus on this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:19, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - Donald Albury 15:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:51, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Just from looking through this talk page I've noticed there are several sources which are aparently not enough to change were to are, despite evidence of cultural continuity. 152.13.249.80 (talk) 18:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The quality of sources matters. Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources for information on what kinds of sources are acceptable for citations in Wikipedia. - Donald Albury 19:11, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change "were" to "Are"  

message: In the sentence "The Taíno were an indigenous people of the Caribbean.", change the word "were" to "are". Mtgarcia369 (talk) 18:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:18, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. I see the sources, which should help, but this needs to be discussed. There is active discussion in the section above. Please reach consensus on this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:19, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  18 December 2021 

message: There are several million Taíno alive today in the east coast of the United States.
Beings that are alive are not extinct or past tense; please change the first line from were to are thank you. 69.127.242.53 (talk) 15:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - Donald Albury 15:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  4 April 2022 

message: Change were to are. A Taíno tribe in the US Virgin Islands has been officially recognized.
https://stthomassource.com/content/2022/04/06/usvi-taino-chief-seeks-members/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:906:20C7:8DEF:1F14:3C13:7238 (talk) 14:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:51, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Just from looking through this talk page I've noticed there are several sources which are aparently not enough to change were to are, despite evidence of cultural continuity. 152.13.249.80 (talk) 18:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The quality of sources matters. Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources for information on what kinds of sources are acceptable for citations in Wikipedia. - Donald Albury 19:11, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  4 May 2022 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Native Amerindians and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 8#Native Amerindians until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Native Amerindians" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: This still seems a bit unbalanced.
Starting with these 3, orphaned in a comment from a few sections up:
* A flourishing Culture, BBC, Christopher Parker.  Taino in Cuba.
*: contrary to popular claims, Taíno bloodlines, identity and customs were never completely extinguished.  Spanish authorities refused to acknowledge the existence of Taíno people. Yet 19th-Century records are full of references to caseríos in the mountains.  In the 1940s, Cuba’s preeminent geographer and anthropologist Antonio Nuñez Jiménez – who would later hold top positions in the Castro government – had documented dozens of caseríos scattered throughout the Sierra del Cristal and Macizo Nipe-Sagua-Baracoa mountains. Following the 1959 Cuban Revolution, however, the communist government vehemently promoted the notion of the Taíno’s extinction.
* Indigenous Cuba, American Indian Magazine
*: "After years of modest traveling through Cuba rekindling the Native family bonds, the old campesino Cacique Panchito... formally broke through the historical extinction barrier in 2014, when his community was acknowledged at a formal national-international conference on Indigenous cultures of the Americas."
* Taino Peoples, Smithsonian Magazine}}
– SJ + 21:17, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources + source notes 

message: We still speak almost nothing but Taino. I learned to understand English, but I think it's too difficult to speak. I've been said to speak English poorly, when I tried to recently. --184.101.190.233 (talk) 06:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to cite reliable sources that explicitly state that the Taino language is still the native language of people living on Barbuda. People who have learned Taino as a second language as part of an attempt to revive the language are not native speakers.- Donald Albury 17:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Estoy totalmente de acuerdo, quiero decir, ¿cómo puedo saber para obtener información confiable de usted cuando no usa recursos confiables? 166.182.86.2 (talk) 23:11, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barbuda Still Has A Native Taino Population 

message: I've made a couple edits to reflect the current state of the article and include the seperate section as the RFC concluded. After your revert, what would you propose as alternative to what I have done @Donald Albury? Do you have any specific criticism? I would rather improve the article through cumulative edits as there is a lot of work to do. Poketama (talk) 15:32, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted myself. I was too hasty. I still would like to see discussion of the wording, but I'm short of time right now. I'll come back later to discuss this. - Donald Albury 16:13, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

text: If no one else is concerned about your phrasing, then I withdraw my objections. - Donald Albury 22:57, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording of changes to Taino article based on RFC 

message: I've made some edits in the intro section to reflect the three arguments about Taino extinction vs. prevalence. . Have I captured the three arguments correctly? Thanks! CareAhLine (talk) 01:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording theories of extinction vs. prevalence in intro section

message: The Tainos enjoy themselves  by playing  a ball game.They played a game called batos.Batos was played in an open field.It was played  by two teams which tried to hit a rubber ball using their hips, knees, heads,elbows  and shoulder. 
    The ball was made from the sap of a tree. The aim of the ball game was to hit the ball over the goal line of the opposite team. 63.143.116.216 (talk) 00:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this is explained in this section of the article. Jarble (talk) 18:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  How did the Tainos enjoy themselves? 

message: > When a male heir did not exist, the inheritance or succession would go to the oldest male child of the sister of the deceased.
Did you mean, "when a female heir did not exist..."? 68.108.243.87 (talk) 17:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: In a matrilineal society, which it is believed the Taino were, inheritance is through the mother. I don't know the details for leadership succession in the Taino society, but in many matrilineal societies in the Americas, certain leadership positions were reserved for members of a specific clan, and individuals inherited clan membership from their mothers. In such a system, a chief could be succeeded by another male member of his clan, who could be his brother (by a shared mother), the son of a sister (by the same mother), or some other clan member, but never by his own son or by the son of a brother. If the Taino were indeed matrilineal, then the sentence you have questioned doesn't make sense to me, as the son of a sister is the closest male heir (after a brother of the leader). The details may be hard to confirm, as the Spanish seem to have assumed that all societies were patrilineal, and misinterpreted inheritance patterns in the societies they encountered in the Americas. Hopefully, we can find better reliable sources that make this clearer. Donald Albury 21:47, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Found a source, . That source argues that the Taino were matrilineal, that a wife moved in with her husband, who in turned lived in his maternal uncle's household. Rank was inherited throught the female line. Women could sometimes hold high rank. The Spanish reported that rank could sometimes be inherited by the eldest son, but the authors note that such patrilineal inheritance may have resulted from Spanish disruption of the social system.(P. 618) - Donald Albury 01:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matrilineal inheritance statement accuracy check 

message: Why use the verb “were” to refer to a people when the article later goes on to say are continuing and reviving their culture? If the culture continues, as the first sentence states, then shouldn’t the people be referred to in the present tense? Bovianchovy (talk) 02:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: While elements of Taino culture may have survived in isolated rural communities, I am not aware of anywhere that the Taino culture has survived intact. In fact, the article discusses how Taino successor communities resulted from the admixture of European and African people (primarily men) with Taino people. As for the "revival" of Taino culture, that process is more of a "reinvention", based on a mixture of colonial records, which surely are a poor representation of Taino culture of the time, and modern rural customs, which may (or may nor) derive (with an unknown degree of modification) from Taino culture of the 15th century. Cultures evolve. Cultures that have been severely disrupted, as happened to Taino culture after the Spanish arrival, evolve very rapidly, if they don't disappear. People in the Greater Antilles are descended in various proportions from Tainos, Europeans, and Africans, and their cultures are likewise derived in different proportions from Taino, European, and African pre-contact cultures. Donald Albury 19:12, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text: We did not come to a consensus, as the record shows. Our perspectives vary to varying degrees- I for example, obviously don't agree with Donald's. Donald's answer reflects his opinion alone. Mwatuangi (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: DAs answer reflects the consensus of the current academic literature on the subject. We do not get to substitute the wishes of a few WP editors and a slew of driveby IPs for the mainstream academic views on a subject. Heiro 16:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Current academic literature varies, as was shown by multiple articles, and doesn't even consider the literature written by historians in non-Anglophone countries elsewhere. The primary gist of this debate was over the structure of the article and how certain issues about its content should be addressed, not something that can't be settled decisively in a simple RFC by people who aren't scholars in this field. We can make sure the content that is added is well-sourced and NPOV, but let's not pretend this issue is settled when other Wikipedia pages on the very subject clearly suggest otherwise. Mwatuangi (talk) 17:10, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is quite true. The page should be rewritten to capture this ongoing debate. It's definitely perceived different among indigenous scholars. Uninterruptedness is not the issue. The issue is whether anything remains of the Taino (whether it's mtDNA - which still exists, SNP markers (which exist - I have them), or language or whatever. NO cultures have survived intact from the past. But when writing about modern Rome we do not say "Romans were people who lived in the city of Rome." Regardless of whether Roman culture has changed (or new genes came in or some left), Romans live in the present tense - just like contemporary Taino do.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by El Cubedo (talk • contribs) 17:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

text: What other Wikipedia pages say is not material, as Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Can you provided citations to reliable sources that say that the Taino people and culture have persisted uninterrupted? Donald Albury 19:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither is this page's either, so presenting your opinion as what literature has agreed upon when there is literally a historian cited up there that says their culture has survived (Alejandro Hartmann Matos) isn't reflective of what's been presented. Note that other pages do not approach the subject with either of our perspectives with the sources they have, some support yours, others mine - I respect your perspective, by the way - and some even refrain and simply note that it's a very controversial and hotly-debated subject. We have already decided upon a suitable solution for addressing the main conflict of the page and made it far better than it was before; questions of culture at this point are philosophical (what constitutes a culture, how much change a culture endure before a society "loses it", etc.) and something that are not NPOV. There's no need to drag this out further. Mwatuangi (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tense in First Sentence 

message: I looked into this claim which was tagged as needing a citation: 
"Diego Álvarez Chanca, a physician who traveled with Christopher Columbus, reported in a letter that Spaniards took as many women as they possibly could and kept them as concubines."
I believe it's referencing a letter from Chanca in which he says that Caribes, not Spaniards, kidnapped other indigenous women (probably including, but not specifically, Taíno women): 
"The habits of these Caribbees (sic.) are brutal .... In their attacks upon the neighboring islands, these people capture as many of the women as they can, especially those who are young and beautiful, and keep them as servants or to have as concubines." https://content.wisconsinhistory.org/digital/collection/aj/id/4381
This reference could be added to the earlier paragraph about Carib raids, but given that Chanca's letter doesn't refer to Taíno women specifically, I am opting to remove it entirely. 74.71.162.63 (talk) 14:49, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addressing citation needed tag in "Women" section 

message: Why does the article use a colonial Spanish corruption of the original Arawak word (cacique came from Arawak kassiquan), It means "keeper of a house" or "housekeeper." In Spanish it means "chief" and is used in that manner throughout Latin America (when it's used at all). 
The Spanish misunderstood the Arawak concept and then corrupted the language and made it a synonym for "jefe" (so that they could believe they were talking to someone with authority to give up land).
Why not just use the indigenous word, since it's known? If needed, the Spanish equivalent could be in parenthesis - and link to the article that actually explains the etymology of cacique. El Cubedo (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  It would be great to denote which labels were indigenous and which are merely Spanish label 

message: It is highly unlikely that Columbus called the Taino "Indians" (as in thinking they are in India" as that doesn't even fit Spanish or Italian word structure. It's far more likely he referred to them as "Indios", as in a shortened form of "indigena", meaning " the indigenous people of that area. Columbus and his men were very skilled sailors with modern maps at the time. The idea that they went in the entirely wrong direction at every turn and still think they wound up in India is laughable. Disinfectantrum (talk) 19:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Columbus seriously underestimated the size of the Earth (see Christopher Columbus#Quest for Asia) and thought that he had reached the East Indies. Are you aware of any reliable source that supports your proposal that Columbus called the people he encountered "indigenas" rather than "indios"? Donald Albury 22:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indians 

message: This article and talk page looks really quite poor. A clear standard should be discussed as to what even meets the conditions of "continued existence", and if the Taino are not of continued existence then a page or large section of the article should be dedicated to Neo Taino. 
This is clearly a hot political topic but as such it deserves more attention. 84.71.252.187 (talk) 13:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, everything in Wikipedia articles has to be supported by reliable sources, and we are all volunteers here. If you are aware of reliable sources that support statements about the topic that are not already used in the article, then please present them. You are also welcome to contribute to the article, subject to agreement by other editors that your edits comply with policies such as using reliable sources, avoiding original research, and maintaining a neutral point of view. I will note that I believe there is a difference between the "continued existence" of the Taino people as a political or cultural entity and the "continued existence" of Taino DNA in the current Caribbean population or of isolated cultural practices that may have been inherited from Taino ancestors. Donald Albury 14:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still not addressed in 2024 

message: CHANGE:
While the scholar Yolanda Martínez-San Miguel sees the development of the Neo-Taíno movement in Puerto Rico as a useful counter to the domination of the island by the United States and the Spanish legacies of island society, she also notes that the Neo-Taíno movement in Puerto Rico "could be seen as a useless anachronistic reinvention of a 'Boricua coqui' identity can also be conceived as a productive example of Spivak's 'strategic essentialism'"
TO:
While the scholar Yolanda Martínez-San Miguel sees the development of the Neo-Taíno movement in Puerto Rico as a useful counter to the domination of the island by the United States and the Spanish legacies of island society, she also notes with reference to the Neo-Taíno movement in Puerto Rico that "what could be seen as a useless anachronistic reinvention of a 'Boricua coqui' identity can also be conceived as a productive example of Spivak's 'strategic essentialism'"
REASON:
The current version is ungrammatical. Note that the word "what" added inside the quoted material is taken directly from the cited article.d Gkshenaut (talk) 17:53, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: ABG  (Talk/Report any mistakes here)  02:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2024