Talk:Counties of the United Kingdom/Archive 1

message: This term, the "Islands of the North Atlantic", is only ever used with reference to the Northern Ireland peace agreements. It has no place in an article about ancient counties. TharkunColl 00:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In Nordic contexts, "North Atlantic islands" is a phrase used to refer to the Faroes, Greenland and Iceland. //Big Adamsky 00:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, perhaps. See this discussion. //Big Adamsky 00:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IONA

message: Would it be possible to link to an example of each of these usages?  Or is this WP:V overkill for a simple dab page?  I'm just trying to think of a solution for the "POV" war... Aquilina 21:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, but this article is dramatically better than it was a few weeks back. Just zis Guy you know? 15:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is no longer a dab page, therefore illustrations and examples of usage would be very welcome. As it is, it is 1000% better than it was before Aquilina totally re-wrote it.--Mais oui! 17:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage

message: If the edit war over the use of the word "the" at the beginning of the article carries on much longer, the article will become a surefire candidate for Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever.  (In case anyone cares, I think that the "the" shouldn't be there, as it suggests there are a unique set of traditional counties, and as anyone who has read the various versions of this article will know, this is far from clear.)  --RFBailey 21:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definite article 

message: So far as I know there are no "traditional counties" in Scotland. I believe the term "traditional county" dates from the late 19th century, and a decision of the UK Parliament (then also, effectively, parliament of the British Isles) to preserve then existing county boundaries in England and Wales as "traditional", in the face of legislation designed to create county councils and, at the same time, to change boundaries for general administrative purposes. No similar decision was made with respect to Scotland (where separate legislation applied re creation of county councils). "Traditional counties of England and Wales" may make sense as an article title. I suggest "Traditional counties of the British Isles" does not. Laurel Bush 15:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The scope of this article includes Ireland (the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland) though.  Also, the Association of British Counties appear to hold the opinion that Scotland has traditional counties.  I have no idea of the merit of that opinion, however.  Yorkshire Phoenix   15:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The traditional counties are more commonly used in Ireland than they ever are in England and Wales.  One notable difference with the approach in Northern Ireland is that settlements are able to be part of a borough in another county, without changing counties themselves (for example Portstewart and Portrush, both in County Antrim, are part of the Borough of Coleraine, which itself is in County Londonderry).  Out of interest: which version of the Scottish counties do the ABC call traditional counties?  Yorkshire Phoenix   08:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason they are more used is because they are more publicised! The Royal Mail didn't mess abuot with postal counties when local government changed, and neither did the Lords Lieutenants change either. If we could get them to change back in Great Britain too then we'd see more usage! Owain (talk) 08:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Such a move would necessitate a re-write of that article to include the lost content from this one.  That would result in a significant change in Association of British Counties from being an article about ABC to become one about the world according to ABC, which I don't think would be a good one.  Yorkshire Phoenix   09:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The articles do not purport to do that. In cases where there are differences they are already explained - as in Ross-shire, Cromartyshire and Ross and Cromarty. Owain (talk) 10:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the only disagreement in Ireland was over the name of County Londonderry and essentially everyone recognises the same 32 counties (although, strictly speaking, there was never a County "Derry" or "Doire" but a County Coleraine before the creation of County Londonderry around the new walled city). Yorkshire Phoenix   10:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scotland 

message: The Traditional counties of England was renamed Historic counties of England, following this disscussion. Shouldn't this article follow-suit, based upon the same conjectures and consensus? Jhamez84 17:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would give legitimacy to the idea that there were "historic" counties of Scotland on a similar basis to England. This is a disputed concept. I feel this page and Association of British Counties should merge instead. The only reference to "Traditional counties of the British Isles" is on Wikipedia and the ABC website. MRSC 19:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite my reservations for this page moving, I would note that Traditional counties of Wales is a candidate for being renamed following the English example. MRSC 22:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree that it shouldn't be moved because the case in Scotland is certainly different.  However, it also should not be merged with the ABC article - as has been explained many times on these pages, the group is not the same as the 'objective', and there are groups outside the ABC relevant to the discussion.  Traditional county, as a phhrase, does have some limited currency elsewhere, as an occasional informal turn of phrase - check Hansard, the Times archive, etc. Perhaps movement to a historical subdivisions of the UK which explains the subtleties is the way forward. Aquilina 19:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm.  I'd expect historical subdivisions of the British Isles to explain hundreds and cantrefs and villes and poor law unions, as well as counties.  Does "ancient county" work for Scotland and Ireland?  Morwen - Talk 15:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: This page is entirely repetition of information found in other articles. It should redirect to Counties of the United Kingdom, that page then links to the various nations county articles. MRSC 19:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't forget southern Ireland. Morwen - Talk 20:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. The link from Counties of the United Kingdom is to Counties of Ireland so it catches it too. MRSC 05:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that this links to Counties of Ireland, should it be renamed to Counties of the British Isles/Counties of Great Britain and Ireland?  Yorkshire Phoenix   00:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

text: No other concerns voiced, I've merged the information in. MRSC 20:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditional? 

message: I believe there were various changes to boundaries during the 1890 to 1975 period. Changes did not stop with the work of the Boundary Commissioners appointed under the legislation of 1889. The same legislation gave greater powers re boundaries to the Secretary for Scotland. Perhaps the map is actually of counties as abolished in 1975? Laurel Bush 10:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've adapted the caption. User:Morwen created the map and will probably be able to confirm which boundaries are being used. MRSC 11:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of Scottish counties