Talk:Armenian genocide/Archive 17

message: the source ("Wallstein Verlag") tells that it has no date. So it can taken from any other period. It's not verifiable. And if Wegner did take this photo, he would surely know when he took the photo's. And why is this photo unknown to ANI (see:http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html)
These are all signs wikipedia is using a fake-photo.
If wikipedia is serious, it doesn't accept photo's with such dubious matters (unknown date).
+when I wrote this, I read below in screen: Encyclopedic content must be verifiable....
So wikipedia tells this about verifiability, and then uses photo's with dubious matters.Chonanh 13:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide photo of children 

message: I want to verify this matter:
Process and camps of deportation
Others are said to have been used only as temporary mass burial zones—such as Radjo, Katma, and Azaz—that were closed in Fall 1915.[22] Some authors also maintain that the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, Del-El, and Ra's al-'Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days.[22] 
•  ^ a b c d e (French) Kotek, Joël and Pierre Rigoulot. Le Siècle des camps: Détention, concentration, extermination: cent ans de mal radica. JC Lattes, 2000 
-----
On which pages we can find this about: 
*It is believed that twenty-five major concentration camps existed under the command of Şükrü Kaya, one of the right hands of Talat Pasha.[22]
*As with Jewish kapos in the concentration camps, the majority of the guards inside the camps were Armenians.[22] 
(This book has 805 pages.) 
Without pages mentioned this nazi-connection can not be verified.Chonanh 01:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  references to concentration camps 

message: There is a reference added with [] to the sentence "what led to the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian community was founded by the lttihad ve Terraki". I would like the user User:Fedayee give the whole paragraf from where the refernce is aquired. Also User:Fedayee has to prove that this sentence is not a secondary citation or the authors own perception. Any citation that is not based on primary sources can not be used. --OttomanReference 19:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What kind of claim is this? An article based on only primary sources is called original research, you do prefer writting original research, but there is no place for that here. Fedayee contribution is nothing that special, and as you are aware of, I have already posted from the Ottoman Gazette the conclusions of the trials, and it included the role of the special organization. A role, which I have provided an ample of primary and secondary source in the talk page. I hope you won't start again. Fad (ix) 23:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Well the reference I added details how the Committee of Union and Progress came to power in Turkey. It doesn't exactly quote the sentence. Besides, isn't it common knowledge that the members of that party were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide? Pretty lame to ask for a reference for such a sentence IMO. I'll try to find one that actually says Talaat and his clique committed the destruction of the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire Mr. Lawyer. - Fedayee 20:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: " User:Fedayee: It doesn't exactly quote the sentence." It is not a good policy do add a quote that does not even cover the period. I want to say; I admire your efforts to improve the article. Did you not get tired of "unsupported claims." It is possible to find many opposing sources on whole section "Planned attacks on deportees by the CUP". The citation (collection in this case) has to prove "without any suspicion" of the responsibilities. A citation of “I belive so” is really not a citation. There is a difference between accusation and establishmet of a crime. Thanks. --OttomanReference 20:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure if I follow what you are saying but i'll remove that citation I added assuming that you want something that quotes it exactly. But is it not clear enough that the Three pashas were responsible for the AG? - Fedayee 20:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Come on, we are talking here about a planned ethnic and religious cleansing, with German diplomatic accounts. If we replace Armenians with Bosnians or Hutu's and Turkey or Anatolia with the Serbian controlled part of Bosnia-Hercegovina or Rwanda, nobody would even consider naming it otherwise. Ethnic/religious cleansing equals genocide. How else can the Turkish government justify killing women, children and the elderly all over Anatolia, eventhough only in the eastern provinces some Armenians ended up standing on the Russian side of the fights, but not for ethnic cleansing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.97.198.167 (talk) 14:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsupported claim! 

message: Why is Pamuk included in there? He is a novelist not a historian. The section should be better titled "views by some Turks" as it is and seems to be written to the only highlight Turks who have one way or the other talked about the events in a way more symphatetic to the Armenian position. I suggest that we take both Pamuk and Dink out - neither of them are historians therefore they are not "academicians"; it conflicts with the section title. It is primarily stuff like this that makes the article look bad and constantly attract edit-wars.
On a similar note, please do not rate this article higher than B for any project. We went over this two months ago. If it is not even GA it doesn't make sense that it is rated as A, now does it? It just looks childish and like a pissing contest really :) The same logic and standard applies to all the articles in Wikipedia therefore there is no need to get offended or anything - I would say the same for all of them. Baristarim 23:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic views on the issue 

message: The sentence goes like this: "Under the millet system of Ottoman law, Armenians as dhimmis or recognized non-Muslims (along with Greeks, Jews and other ethnic and religious groups) were subject to laws that effectively designated them as second-class citizens, with fewer legal rights than Muslims." It is actually a biased sentence and the biased part is the "designated them as second-class citizens, with fewer legal rights than Muslims". This claim can be disproved by reading the Wikipedia article Millet (Ottoman Empire), or attempting a little research on the Internet. As the Wiki article suggests: "The millet concept has a similarity to autonomous territories that has long been the European norm for dealing with minority groups." And it does not say anything about making other "millets" second-class citizens. In fact, "Aegean Greeks were granted wide commercial rights and also developed a fleet that quickly became the Empire's maritime weapon. In fact, some Greek citizens prospered to such a degree that they eventually opposed the Greek War of Independence of 1821–1831, afraid to lose their privileged position in the imperial capital." Well, the article is not high-quality and has little information about the Armenians. But, again, if you write something, you have to have proof (correct proof) to say that it's correct. Unfortunately, the biased part of the sentence at the beginning of this sub-article does not have proof..
Kalkim   23:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I meant "correct" proof. I'm really suspicious about the reliability of the proof (namely, reference number 5), especially about the part: "their testimony in Islamic courts was inadmissible against Muslims" and "they were heavily taxed". Were they taxed more heavily than Ottoman Muslims? I doubt that. My current knowledge contradicts with these information. I will soon try to provide material that is not just based on one book on an extensive and serious subject to disprove the claim that Armenians were treated as second-class subjects. And I want to add that the reference is a book whose subject is Armenian Genocide. It's really questionable how objective this book can describe the millet system or its effects in the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th century or before.
Kalkim   14:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you that the wordings are POV. A member has made changes, I asked him to discuss them in the talkpage, which he did, and for a reason he didn't finally edited to his proposed change after, even thought I told him I agree with his change. Dig in the talk page if you could find the change he proposed. Regards. Fad (ix) 17:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, about the taxation, this is actually true though, Armenians were those who were taxed most. Minorities had to pay the military tax, but many other taxes were imposed to them contrary to other minorities, but many Assyrian communities in the East were subjected to the same policies though. Fad (ix) 17:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fadix, I could not find the discussion of the particular member about the millet issue in this talk page or the other: Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments.. Can you be more specific about where I can find it? And the modified sentence stands as "They had separate legal courts, however disputes involving a Muslim fell under the sharia-based laws. Armenians were exempt from serving in the military (and instead forced to pay an exemption tax, the jizya); their testimony in Islamic courts was inadmissible against Muslims; they were not allowed to bear arms, they were heavily taxed, and they were treated overall as second-class subjects." It's still not in NPOV. Although this information has a reference, the reference is a book about the Armenian Genocide, whose objectivity is questionable about the Millet (Ottoman Empire) issue since it's a broad subject. Btw, I'm not sure about the taxation issue. I do not know if the Armenians were those who were taxed the most.However, you may be right and I will to try to check if this particular info is true or not from other sources.    Kalkim   13:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, sorry for the late reply. This is the proposition for change in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenian_Genocide/Archive_15#Proposals_for_changes Read it, and tell me what you think of. Also, might I suggest you Akçam most recent work. It is pretty much complete and includes the taxation stuff. Regards. Fad (ix) 18:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Didn't the tanzimat essentially make the Ottoman state secular?  The jizya was abolished and many social disabilities against religious minorities were removed.  Also at the time of the Armenian genocide, the Young Turks were in power, who were secular humanists.  I doubt Islam played a big role in the genocide. 71.102.188.162 09:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Why speculate (falsely) when there is plently of scholarly/archival material that covers this.--THOTH 20:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I am very very sorry for my very very late response... Fad, thanks for the link. I read the change proposal. It is well written, and mostly non-biased by FrancescoMazzucotelli. Nevertheless, I have to propose a few more changes to it: current version: "Armenians were barred... they were not allowed to bear weapons." (in the first paragraph) my version:  The current version sounds like it's an ethnic thing for the Armenians to be banned from the military. Instead of "Armenians", we should call it "Armenian Millet (Ottoman Empire)", i.e. "Ermeni Milleti, because their bar from the military is not an ethnic matter. Except the Muslim millet, all millets were banned from the military (also there was the devşirme). Also, there is not a single Armenian millet in the Ottoman Empire. There are more than one. Thus, my version of the first paragraph is as follows: "In principle, Armenian millets, like Greeks, Jews, and other Christian communities (millets) across the Middle East were originally subject to a corpus of laws and regulations which gave them a different legal status within the Empire than their Muslim counterparts. Armenian millets were barred from serving in the military, and paid jizya because of that. Their courts were separate from the Muslim millet. However, when there was a dispute between a Muslim and an Armenian, Islamic court was responsible to solve this dispute and their testimony was inadmissible against Muslims." I do not know about the bearing of weapons issue. In the third paragraph, there is the sentence "In 1856, the Hatt-ı Hümayun promised equality for all Ottoman citizens irrespective of their ethnicity and confession...". As I explained above, ethnicity is not an issue in the Ottoman Empire. Instead, there are millets based on the religious sect of a society. Thus, ethnicity should be removed or replaced by millet. Also in the third paragraph, there is another sentence beginning with "The reformist period peaked with the Constitution...which established freedom of belief and equality...". Freedom of belief was present in the Ottoman Empire. All people, living in the Empire, were free to believe in their own religious sects. Therefore, freedom of belief must be removed from the sentence. One last thing to do is to place till 1908 to the end of the sentence (in the fourth paragraph): "This constitution, however, was...over the Empire.". My references for my proposal for changes are especially İlber Ortaylı's two books (which are in Turkish): "The Last Empire: Ottoman Empire, İstanbul, Timaş Press, 2006", and "The Ottoman Peace, İstanbul, Timaş Press, 2007". Except for these above, the proposal is good. I did not have a chance to look at Akçam's recent work. I have nevertheless read some of his works. I strongly suggest you not to base your knowledge   only on Akçam's works. You should also read İlber Ortaylı, Halil İnalcık, and Donald Quataert. They are the true masters of Ottoman History. Also, there are some incorrect data in the Wiki article Millet (Ottoman Empire). Also, the article is incomplete. I'll try to improve it ASAP. This time, it won't take too long:)).    --Kalkim 10:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Millet system in "the Status of Ottoman Armenians" sub-article 

message: I'm not bothered by the content of the article as long as it is based on something that can be considered evidence. And as far as I know, this doesn't include opinion, regardless of the occupation of the person it belongs to. I could easily find an ethnographer or a historian who believes the Holocaust never happened, but that doesn't exactly make it true, now does it? JaneDOA 15:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jane British ethnographer William Ramsay is a very notable scholar, he even has his own Encyclopedia Britanica entry. This comment is based on the fact that he travelled in turkey for twelve years (in his job as an ethnographer) seeing how the armenians and greeks were treated. But as long as we make clear its his view its is acceptable to use it here. I'm quite sure his discription of the deep south at the same time would be similar, unfortunately this is probably the best source of the level of persicution in turkey at the time. Hypnosadist 20:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why it should be quoted, what does it bring to the article? A footnote is enough, quoting that much is unecessary. Fad (ix) 18:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Since when does Wikipedia cite subjective commentary? 

message: The song Holy Mountains isn't so much about the Genocide but more about the Turks building Mititary establishments on a mountain they consider to be Holy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.58.224.236 (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: SOAD guitarist/songwriter Daron Malakian's own words: DM: "The song (Holy Mountains) is about Masis (the Armenian homeland) and Ararat (a mountain in eastern Turkey considered to be the landing point of Noah’s Ark). If you saw the mountains on TV they would be described as mountains in Turkey, and that’s always a knife in an Armenian’s heart because those are Armenian mountains, not Turkish mountains. They were stolen from us. So that song, ‘Holy Mountains,’ is about those mountains and how they were stolen from us. [Also], my little cousin’s name is Masis" If you listen to the lyrics you will understand it is about how sacred Armenian lands were taken from them through bloodshed - so yes of course it is about the Genocide which was the final act in the historical process of the Turks depriving Armenians of their lands (in addition to slaughtering the better part of the Anatolian Armenian population). --THOTH 04:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy Mountains 

message: Hi, these two are not academics, one is a novelist, the other a journalist. Imo they should only be given a passing mention perhaps in reference to article 301, not sections of their own. --A.Garnet 12:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh my gosh, I think I discovered an enlightened Turk, could this be? Amjikian 07:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for sarcastic remarks (especially the ones bundled with (any amount of) rascism). By the way, is your last name really Amjikian? just wondering deniz 08:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: For your information - my "suffering" as an Armenian has nothign to do with hatred against Turks - I don't hate Turks - I don't hate anyone. My "suffering" as an Armenian has everythign to do with a genocide of my people and my family that is ongoing to this day - as denial is the final stage of genocide - and it is a stage that we are in right now. Now if I was a Turk I would be quite ashamed of my country for continuing this genocide, of causing the current generation of Turks to become accomplice to it...and perhaps I would try to do something - to try to suffer less by erasing this shame from my heart - and fully acknowledge the crimes commited against the Armenians by the anscestors that you protect. Likewise I would say (again in your words - as a Turk) that to erase the ignorance of the past and amnesia of your brain that in fact you try to do a better job remembering and acknowledging the past - and attempting to understand why a people who have been victimized by your ancestors - to the point where they were delibertly slaughtered en mass and driven from their ancient homelands - why such a people might currently be suffering and feel hurt - when you - the perpetrator nation - fail to acknowledge the enormity of the crimes commited against this victim people - and instead smugly advise them to forget about it - yeah just forget about of course - as if we can...unfortunatly (?) we haven't been brainwashed as a people to forget about our past - unlike soem other people who revel in their ignorance and suggest such for others - how convenient....--THOTH 16:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not advise anyone to forget the past. And I do not understand the degree of aggression that you display, nor the sharpness of your words. I do not feel that I am a perpetrator, and neither do I feel brainwashed. I am only proposing solutions to better the lives of the Armenians in Turkey and the Armenians of Armenina today. I feel that Hrant Dink was a very humanist and wise writer and his thoughts and philosophy should be better studied by all Armenians and Turks. I would feel better if you made some remarks about him or his thoughts on your commentary because this is the topic underwhich we are writing. He always stated that trying to corner the Turkish State via international lobbies only worsens the relations here in Asia Minor. It creates further prejudice in the public opinion, and the populist media does not help the situation either. I will not enter the attriton warfare that you may want me enter. All I do is to come out of the trench, bare naked, in order to suggest solutions for the current situation. If you really want to do good for Armenians, go to Armenia, help dress, feed and educate Armenian kids, and better the economy of that country. Instead of rolling your eyes with resentment, focus them on productive projects with practical outcomes. That is better for us and everyone. I suggest a new topic that is "The social and psychological impacts (trauma?) on today's diaspora". Thank you.--Devran77 13:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Turks admitting the truth about what Turkish nation did to Armenians is the first step in any reconcilliation. Can you imagine a German preaching to a Jew how he/she should feel about Germans and about the Holocaust? - and oh by the way - stop hating Germans (when most all Germans in this case dismiss the Holocaust as some kind of Jewish propoganda, still blame the Jews for their own misfortune and claim innocence and consider Hitler and his minions as national heros who were only doing their patritic duty to the nation...and so on and so forth). And BTW the topic of this article is not "solutions to better the lives of the Armenians in Turkey and the Armenians in Armenia" it is the Armenian Genocide - so your concern in this regard is out of place here (in addition to otherwise being misguided and misinformed). As for Hrant Dink - yes he was of the opinion that outside efforts to pressure Turkey were not helpful. However, he clearly believed that Turkey and Turks must admit the Armenian Genocide as fact. He felt that the onus was on Turks to come to this realization and express remourse etc without having to be prod to do so. I and other Armenians are all for that - however the reality is that Turkey had 50-60 years after the event where there was little or no pressure from any Armenian Diaspora to admit the truth and I can't seem to recall any statements made on behalf of the nation or educational programs for Turks or what have you that became more accurate and forthcomming concerning these events. In fact it has been just the opposite. What is clear is that pressure is building on Turkey - through efforts of the Armenian Diaspora - for Turkey and Turks to come to terms with their past. Obviously it is already proven that lacking such pressure they will not come around on their own. So in this case Dink was clearly wrong - as much as we can appreciate his sentiments of brotherhood among the Turkish and Armenian peoples. And while some Armenians may hate Turks I think is is innacurate to claim that most do and that "hatred" is putting Turks on the defensive and such. It is also incredibly innacurate to brand Genocide recognition efforts as hatred of Turks or toward Turkey (while the continued denial of the Genocide can clearly be considered a hateful act toward Armenians). The Turkish policies of denial are what is putting Turks and Turkey on the defensive. And until this attitude changes this condition will not change. Turkey and Turks will continue to be - rightly - condemned by the entire world who knows of and understands these events and the travesty of their continued denial. The ball is clearly in Turkey and Turks' court to do what is right, show some maturity as a people, and stop the shameful and hurtful denial of the Armenian Genocide and stop the perpetuation of the genocide by the continued aggressive acts of denial which only makes the Turks of today accomplices to the crimes. So for justice to be served is it incumbent upon the victim of a crime to show mercy on the perpetrator? Or is the onus upon the perpetrator to acknowledge the deeds and seek forgivness?--THOTH 23:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You raise a good point. If Hrant Dink gets a section, then why not a sentence or two on ASALA's murder of nearly 50 Turkish diplomats and their families in the name of genocide recognition? Lima6 05:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I disagree with your opinion on this matter --THOTH 17:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd appreciate a reason. --A.Garnet 17:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pamuk recieved the nobel prize for literature - arguably directly in relation to his stance on the Armenian genocide (or at least in regard to freedom of speech - or lack therof - in Turkey in regards to this and related issues). Dink was recently killed by Turkish nationalistic forces directly for his stance regarding Armenian Genocide recognition. He obviously was considered to be a notable voice on this issue and his death is both highly pressworthy and relevant to this issue - (killing because of his outspokeness on this issue...reference above comments by Devran77). Both of these individuals merit the level of treatment they recieve in the article. I find it quite interesting and telling that certain Turks such as yourself might disagree....but the genocide is a mde up propoganda ploy on behalf of Armenians right? yes - let us make it clear where we stand.--THOTH 17:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Insults and accusations aside, neither of them are academics. They are relevant in that they have been associated with the media coverage of the events, but they have not provided any notable academic view on the event as section suggests. They should be contextualised into a more approriate section. Perhaps create a "Recent developments" section. --A.Garnet 17:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: THOTH, please remember to comment on the content of a point raised here, not on the contributor who raised the point. AecisBrievenbus 22:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, Garnet, i'm surprised that you raise this issue considering that this article is highly biased and chock full of hypocrisy. One can argue that it rivals material produced by the Soviets. lutherian 22:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ignoring the Calvinist's comment, I would like you to take a look at the term academic. An academic is simply a person, typically part of the higher-education community, who has done peer-reviewed research on a topic. A Nobel-prize winner would certainly fit the former category, and debatably the latter. Similar things can probably be said about Dink, he was certainly a well-educated and distinguished person, though I am not certain how much research he was involved in. However, both views on the subject are noteworthy, and I think they deserve inclusion, even if it may be necessary to label them as ‘other notable views’ or move them to a different section.The Myotis 22:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   There are many journalists that are good researchers, but they are not academics. Myotis, please take a look at academic yourself. An academic is a person who works as a researcher (and usually teacher) at a university or similar institution in post-secondary (or tertiary) education Not being an academic does not make Hrant Dink's opinion not notable, as he might have researched the subject very well. The bad thing about journalists is that they are not as academically responsible of what they write as academics, historians. Orhan Pamuk is notable as he is a Nobel prize winner, his quotes are notable too, but his quotes, his opinions should not be presented as facts or as something from the research community (which includes academics, researcher journalists and other researchers). Besides, what Orhan Pamuk said was that 30,000 Kurds and 1million Armenians were killed in these lands. Separately these are not far from the general Turkish view, according to which 37,000+ people died in PKK conflict and many of them were Kurdish, also hundreds of thousands of Armenian died but not as much as 1 million (died-killed might be an issue there). deniz 01:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: My suggestion is to rename the 9th section, it should be 'the position of Turkish people', create a subsection government's position move what was previously under 9th section there. Move Hrant Dink and Orhan Pamuk subsections under the governments position subsection. Move the first sentence of subsection "10.4 Denial" under section 9 above subsection for government's position. Make 10.4 Denial to a section (might be better to rename it to 'support to the Turkish view in the academic continuity') (delete the now empty 10th section) deniz 01:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Position of Turkish people" sounds awkward and too generalizing. How do you quantify the "Turkish people"? Do all Turks believe that the genocide did not occur? Of course not; you cannot lump an entire people into a group and claim that the whole of them represent this particular point of view.--MarshallBagramyan 02:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please check my changes, there is no such claim that all Turkish all represent same point of view on this issue deniz 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Deniz, it is better that you do not add quotes, we have way too much already, and I will be deleting probably most when I start cleaning the article. Also, it is better you leave Garnet handle the article, as the talk page has megs of discussions and you were not there when this happened, for example your recent edit deal with that, which was contested in the page. Fad (ix) 02:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Is quote = that excerpt of letter?. We can hide it. Did you guys have a discussion about bringing together all Turkish views under one section? I understand your concern, seeing the same discussions over and over again might be pissing off the old editors, sorry if I did that, that was one of my reasons of refraining from adding/removing anything substantial here and similar articles. I know rearranging stuff can also be a very major edit. My edit was a response to A. Garnet's concerns and the comments after that. I think it solves that problem, though it might be creating other problems. deniz 04:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically yes, that is one example. Because there is more to that letter, there is Israel Charny questioneers, and the followup. This will lead to placing quotes and counterquotes. Also, the allusion to Turkish position to. This brough many conreoversies in the past, as it would be qualified as generalisation. Fad (ix) 15:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I am going to go ahead and make these changes, please feel free to revert any change I made. oops section 10 wasn't empty, it stays though I made rearrangements, moved some text in this section to other sections. I recovered a text that was commented out and moved it to 10th section. Hopefully my suggestions are more clear now deniz 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think now I get what you mean. Will it be OK if the title is positions(plural) of Turkish people? The text under that includes several views.deniz 04:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Fadix - I would like to helpfully suggest to you (to do us all a favor) that if you can't control your mental condition (of having to irrationally lash out against, belittle and personally attack any who do not blindly accept your very specific perspective) that you do your best to just try to stay away from and out of the business of other people.--THOTH 03:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I won't, you on various occasions admitted that you won't respect NPOV, which is a policy. Don't expect me to get out of your way. Pretty much everyone are tired of your irrelevent comments which have nothing to do with the content of this article. Fad (ix) 22:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Toth unfortunately suffers from an acute form of VD (see arguments page) Amjikian 06:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont think the recent restructure is an improvment. "Views of Turkish people" is too general as Marshall has noted. Imo, one section should note the Turkish government position since it is the official response, another deal with Academic views consisting of those who support and deny including Turkish scholars on both sides and new section should be created for 'Recent Developments' where the controversies surrounding Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink's death can be included. --A.Garnet 22:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the overwhelming position (academic and otherwise) on this matter is acknolwledgement of the Armenian Genocide (as indisputable fact) and acceptance of its basic understood chronology and facts (including perpetrators, methods and motivations for such etc. as well as sources of evidence for this knowledge) - I suggest that your and other attempts here to push the (not widely held/believed) Turkish denialist position are disproportionate to the deserved level of treatment of this position in the article and consist of pushing an unsupported minority position that is not held by the majority of scholars. At best the article should mention that Turkey, Turks and certain academics with various connections and/or dependence on Turkey hold a counter postion and briefly why. However, the article should not just present [mention the existance of] the denialist views but more importantly [of more true academic interest] the article should present the views of the majority of genocide scholars and hsitorians/academics concerning why the Armenian Genocide is denied by such entities and it should also mention the existance of a Turkish Government funded and very active campaign to push denial...including evidence such as the presence of overwhelmingly Turkish deniers on this talk page and in related internet forums and venues concerning the Armenian Genocide and such). This is the appropriate way to present valid information pertaining ot this subject and this should satisfy the deserved level of detail (regarding the denial of the truth/facts in regard to this issue). The bulk of the article should deal with the known facts of the Armenian Genocide itself - as would be expected in a proper encyclopedic article and not a mouthpeice for Turkish denialist propoganda.--THOTH 03:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Garnet has been here long enough to understand how Wikipedia works, but some will never understand how things works here. Fad (ix) 22:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The one and only, attached to this talkpage with an umbilical cord. Fad (ix) 22:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Thoth something related to Armenians? There are at least two users with that username. According to wikipedia, it is an Egyptian deity, you might need to edit that article. denizTC 22:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Forgot to sign :) Baristarim 22:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink 

message: Should we make a section about the sources, and keep it unarchived, so that editors can have a quick look at that section and be aware of the previous discussions about these sources? We can have something like this:
:Book or website || summary (good source or bad source since it does not satisfy [these wiki rules], Example: 1) ..., 2) ... (maybe a third one as well, only the main points)
They will be good until proven to be bad. What do you think about this suggestion? I hope it won't cause another wave of hot discussions (which this talk page is apparently prone to), please if we are going to do it, lets just be precise and concise. Such a section would have helped me a lot. denizTC 06:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By book, I guess you are talking about ressources, I think only books which were consulted to write the actual article should be placed on the main. But I have already in the past created a page, with the ressources. Fad (ix) 14:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Someone redirected it here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_resources a bad move. Fad (ix) 20:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It is usually not a good idea to creat subpages, but undoing is definitly a good move, I don't know what happened of the content if it was deleted, you might ask to an administrator so that he/she undo-delete it. I am just trying to make the last arrangements before they ban me. Fad (ix) 03:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think, it was redirected because supposedly it did not deserve its own page. So I think, a subpage would be fine in that case. Now, after moving the old article page will be redirected to this subpage, so anyone typing that will get to the subpage. Take care. denizTC 15:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A subpage will have no role other than being a subpage of a talkpage, everyone will ignore it, the main was ignored and then redirected, a subpage will make of its content as if innexistant. Any information worth being accessed should have a main. Fad (ix) 16:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  sources 

message: I do not agree with adding that link, while it is true it is the governments official position, it is in Turkish, only Turks will understand it. There was in the past English language sites, what happened with the prior sites? Who removed all the sites there? Fad (ix) 22:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To 88.106.61.112 

message: Note 61, about Malcolm Yapp as one of the Western scholars denying or doubting that the events constituted a genocide, currently reads: "Emeritus Professor Malcom Yapp, Middle Eastern Studies (MES) journal Oct 96, Vol. 32 Issue 4, p 395, 3p." This seems to refer to an article in the Middle Eastern Studies Journal. Does anyone have access to that article? If so, could you add the title of the article to the reference in accordance with Template:Cite journal? Cows fly kites (Aecis) Rule/Contributions 12:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malcolm Yapp 

message: Stop adding tags and blindly reverting back without even discussing. You better write a 10 page essay if you intend to back up the addition of those tags. Discuss your grievances on the talk page!-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 16:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Makalps disruptive tags 

message: Please do not engage in edit wars and back-and-forth reverting. If it is clear that your edit is being opposed (and it should be clear after about two dozen reverts just today), use this talk page to discuss possible changes to the article. AecisBrievenbus 23:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously the claim (by one now gone - pity) that my participation in this talk page is preventing editing of the article is a spurious one eh?--THOTH 03:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please do not edit war 

message: I would like to use this message to clarify a frequent misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is. Wikipedia is a collection of human knowledge, or rather a reflection of the current state of human knowledge. We combine what reliable sources and relevant people have written about a subject (secondary sources) with relevant first-hand information (primary sources) into encyclopedia articles (tertiary sources). We are bound by what those sources have said. As said in Wikipedia:10 things you did not know about Wikipedia: "We require that sources be cited for all significant claims, and we do not permit editors to publicize their personal conclusions when writing articles. Editors must follow a neutral point of view; they must only collect relevant opinions which can be traced to reliable sources." If the consensus among scholars is that something took place, we say that it took place and attribute that to those scholars. That's not the opinion of Wikipedia, because Wikipedia has no opinion. We are not in a position to prove them wrong, that is not what Wikipedia is for. We're in the business of writing an authoritative summary of what relevant and notable scholars have said, but we don't enter into a debate with them. AecisBrievenbus 23:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of those 69 scholars do in fact agree that a genocide did take place. Most of them were duped into thinking that they were signing a something that would call for Armenia and Turkey to open their archives .--MarshallBagramyan 01:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another rant 

message: I tagged ref #6 (IAGS) as dubious, b/c the reference does not support the sentence, as far as I can see. But it's almost morning, please you check yourself as well. If it doesn't mention it, please replace the ref by another one that supports it. Please do not misuse references.  Also Ramsay is primary source, should be removed along with the text, if we cannot find a secondary source completely justifying it, in which case we can just remove the reference to Ramsay. denizTC
I moved the large footnote to its section. Needs a cleanup now, I did some. Also at several places, we have weasel statements. denizTC 04:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  tags 

message: Would it be possible to get some IPA transcriptions for the Armenian text. No offence, but most normal non-Armenians probably don't a clue how words such as "c'ejaspanut'iwn" are pronounced :) ---Ploutarchos 21:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian transliterations 

message: A recent article by Robert Fisk states that there is a 2005 documentary on the Armenian genocide (which he does not name).  It's not mentioned in this article--so does anyone know what this film is?  Badagnani 08:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2005 film? 

message: Why is this section littered with citation needed tags? The linked sub articles cite Philip H. Stoddard, (1963) "The Ottoman Government and the Arabs, 1911 to 1918: A Study of the Teskilat-i Mahsusa," Princeton University. -Does this source cover the content? <<-armon->> 11:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The the text that does not have the references should be removed. --OttomanReference 15:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Special Organization (Teşkilat-ı Mahsusa) 

message: THOTH, you said above that the position of the Turkish government on the Armenian Genocide has changed throughout the years, "from outright denial, to blame of Armenians, to the current position that nothing untoward occured to the Armenians particularly worth mentioning." Can you (or others) elaborate on this, and incorporate it into the section on "The position of the Turkish government"? That way we can not only clarify how the Turkish government feels about this matter at this moment in time, but also place it in a historical perspective. Cows fly kites (Aecis) Rule/Contributions 11:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Give me a little time - but I will see what I can do. I think this type of presentation is even more relevant to the "Denial of the Armenian Genocide"article - and my thoughts on this are to document denial of the Genocide since the beginning - how it was covered up and denied while it was occuring - to the present. The only problem is that such a presentation might require presenting bits of original evidence and cobbling together a case - thus perhaps dabbling into what might be termed "original research" or what not...and like many things I consider along these lines (in regards to this subject and article) I'm tempted just to write a book (and let others quote me here! lol)...again always the issue of available time however...but yeah - I'll see what I can do.--THOTH 12:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please also indicate change in Armenian position, number of casualties, etc. Also why is this article filled with OR again, why are my tags not restored? denizTC 12:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Showering the article with tags is not going to make it better. Offer an alternative or sources.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 14:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol, readding one tag, which was removed prematurely, and which was earlier added by me rightfully, imo, as the source does not support the statement is showering huh? I could very well do what everyone else does and remove that sentence. This is the second time you know. I am even entitled to be pissed off as my tags were removed. Just find a valid source, I am not the one who added it, I am not going to read gazillions books to find one sentence. I don't know if you are the one who added it. denizTC 15:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed - it is but another denial tactic.--THOTH 15:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Which Armenian position may that be? I don't believe that any Armenians are the original sources for the 1.5 million killed figure that has apeared in (German and American) consular reports, governmental correspondence and newspaper articles of the time - etc. Nor do I think you or anyone can make any kind of case whatsoever that the 1.5 million figure is one that is held only by Armenians or Armenian scholars much as no one can just make a claim that it is only Jews who hold to the fact that approximatly or to the best of our knowledge about 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust. No - this again - is a typical tactic of genocide denial - seen in every genocide that is denied - where the perpetrators or their apologists attempt to minimize the number killed and question the factuality of such figures. In fact this has been a key peice of Turkish denial since the beginning and over the years we have seen various claims of Armenians killed by various Turkish spokespersons (such as the Turkish Historical Society) - claiming as few as 10,000 or 50,000 Armenians killed throughout Anatolia and then counterclaiming (much as Nazi apologists do for Germans deaths in WWII) that more Turks died during the WWI period then Armenians - etc (and attempting to blame the victims - in this case the Armenians - for the calamity that occured and for their own demise). Of course any objective person can understand (the low value and deceptiveness of) these claims and see through them and understand what is being (shamefully) attempted. These are not scholarly claims but mere denialist propoganda. Which brings me to one point that should be made about denial (of the Armenian Genocide) - regarding how such as changed and evolved over the years - is that the denial is clearly reactive to efforts on the part of the Armenian community to obtain recognition for the Genocide. Thus to me - in this article - I believe that the denial of the Armenian Genocide should rightly be treated in the following manner - a section titled something like - "Efforts toward recognition of the Armenian Genocide and its denial by Turkey" is required. I suggest this because this process and history is indeed a notable part of the greater issue surounding the Armenian Genocide itself (and it is commonly accepted that denial is the eighth and final stage of genocide). It is difficult for us to truly understand and appreciate the total and utter devestation of the Anatolian Armenian nation and the psychological scars and physical and life challenges experienced by survivors who were dispersed into other cultures around the world. Not only was perhaps as many as 75% of the Armenian population of Anatolia utterly destroyed (killed to death) and nearly every single Armenian town, village and city where Armenians had once lived in their Anatolian homeland now devoid of Armenians - but the CUP/Ottoman Turkish Government deliberatly acted to decapitate the Armenian leadership (political and clergy) leaving Armenians with few intellectuals or leaders to express themselves on behalf of the Armenian community. (and this is the signifigance of commemorating this day April 24) Nor within the Diaspora was there initially any chance for an outward looking political organization - Armenians were purely concerned with survival - with preventing their own extinction. And the fact that Armenians of the Caucuses became trapped and silenced behind the Iron Curtain of the Soviet Union added to this loss of voice for the Armenian community (and cause for Genocide recognition). And any study of the political events surounding the post WWI "peace process" can well understand how Armenians got the short shift vis a vis everyone elses political and economic interets. Thus the Armenian Genocide was largely forgotten (and this in turn inspired both R Lemkin and A Hitler each in their own ways...). But with the advent of the maturation of the 2nd generation of Armenians in the Diaspora and with Armenians establishing themselves, educating themselves and becomming empowered - things changed. Armenians began to reflect and understand how they had been utterly cheated (from even mere acknowledgement of their suffering...and more of course...) and the pain was (and is) still there - magnified by the fact that this/their Genocide is denied and largely forgotten. This is when Armenians began attempts towards Genocide recognition - in multiple spheres - with political action, education, scholarly programs, and pressure on Turkey - etc) - and of course even ASALA and such groups in the 1970s/80s - can be seen in this context (with the goal of getting recognition of the Genocide, pressuring Turkey and showing it as a denier nation and regarding the frustration over the international forgetfulness...and while we may disagree and be disgusted with their methods I think history will credit them with being at least partially effective in their cause). And here too the modern era of Turkish Genocide denial begins and can be examined - from its early crudeness to its current sophistication - and indeed I contend (and even Turkish spokespersons [such as McCarthy] have expressed) that it is entirely a reactive process. Anyway enough for now - but I hope I have at least made a case for this issue of recognition itself - as well as denial to both be included in the article and presented in the manner that I describe.--THOTH 15:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Aecis - I think you are reading more into his "point" and in fact missing his "point" - he is not refering to the Armenian Government but is essentially claiming that anything other then the Turkish position (denial and minimization) is the Armenian position (acceptance as genocide plus details regarding numbers killed, complicity of the CUP led Ottoman Governmental apparatus - etc). BTW I have no problem with a presentation of the Armenian Governmental position - however I am a bit skeptical of such governmental positions in general as they are often based upon political expediency rather then actual fact. The Armenian Government position (essentially the postion of the executive) has somewhat shifted since the founding of the current Republic in 1991 when Levon Ter-Petrosian was President to now (since 1998)under President Kocharian. While each has been careful not to say or do anything that would outright anger Turkey, place blame or make demands etc Ter-Petrosian conciously made the Armenain genocide entirely a non-issue - due in part I imagine based on the fragile existance of the new Armenian State and for practicle considerations (ie wishing for trade and normal relations with Turkey). Kocharian has taken a more straightfoward approach of acknowledgement and wishing for Turkey to do more in this regard but again he has refrained from making any claims for compensation or such - even going so far as stating the the nation of Armenia has no land or material claims against Turkey arising from the Armenian Genocide. One reason Kocharian can be perhaps less concerned with upsetting Turkey is that Turkey has been blockading Armenia since their was with Azerbaijan - thus there are no good imediate prospects for normalized or trade relations. --THOTH 19:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please do not put words in my mouth. THOTH, at least, please break your text into paragraphs, etc, I have some attention deficit problems. The last one was close to "bite-size", but it would be better if it could be shorter. Anyway, I wikilinked Armenian to Armenia back then, if that's something. denizTC 21:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I prefer to assume good faith, THOTH :-) And even if Denizz' intentions weren't pure, as you seem to suggest, he may have struck gold in the process. AecisBrievenbus 22:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish position throughout the years 

message: I think this is one of the best short accounts of the Armenian Genocide I have ever read. The Wikipedia article could stand to cover some of the content presented here in a brief but very informative manner. http://www.warcrimes.info/shop/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=375 --THOTH 15:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A most excellent summation of the Armenian Genocide 

message: I have a question regarding the new section "Labour battalions." It says that "Enver ordered that all Armenians in the Ottoman forces, some as old as sixty, to be disarmed, demobilized and assigned to labor battalion units." Is anything known about the demographics of the "Armenians in the Ottoman forces"? Were the sixty-year olds rare exceptions, or were they quite common? If there was one 60-year old in a group of 1,000 20-year olds (exaggerated hypothetical situation), is it notable and relevant enough to mention it? AecisBrievenbus 22:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labour battalions 

message: There is this link in the article that has no text associated to it. It is a separate concept. Thanks. --OttomanReference 15:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've fixed it by changing the link text and adding the intro text from the article. I agree that the link to "Executors of the Armenian Genocide" which redirected to Operation Nemesis was confusing. <<-armon->> 23:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Re: OttomanReference's edit Fix the classification of "Operation Nemesis", It is not a military tribunal. There are two military tribunals. -makes sense to me. <<-armon->> 00:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Please check the military tribunal. Which part of "Operation Nemesis" included a military court? Did "Operation Nemesis" used military officers for the assassinations? Did ARF publicly declared the results of its analysis (every military tribunal has a public side)? Did ARF performed the executions under military code of justice? Did ARF informed the verdicts to the assassinated people? Did assassinated people had chance to a minimal defense? Could you open up your question, which part of military tribunal fits to "Operation Nemesis?" Thanks. --OttomanReference 00:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I was unclear. I support your breaking it out into another category. It's a contentious topic so I was really only attempting to see if there were any objections to doing that. <<-armon->> 00:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't quite understand what this issue is about - linking "Executors of the Armenian Genocide" to Operation Nemesis and scuh - but just as an aside I can't imagine anyone defending the idea that those who were killed didn't completely deserve it. Did 1.5 million Armenians recieve fair justice? Did 1.5 million Armenians have a chance to defend themselves before "charges" against them? Would anyone have objected or shed a tear if an assassin were to have taken out a Hitler or an Eichmann or a Bormann or a Goebbles or a Hans Frank or a Megele had they escaped after the war (or any time - with or without trial)?  And unlike after WWII where Nazis were actively hunted down by the Allied powers (and brought back to Germany and other places and put on trial) there was no such effort on the part of any nation after WWI regarding Turkish arch-criminals from the war. Armenians who had been so thourouly and utterly victimized and destroyed had no prospect for recourse - could rely on no one to help them - and had no real apparatus or access to information to have conducted proper trials and have had any hope that anyone would have just rounded up these criminals for them. So they did what they could to avenge themselves and serve justice on those so very deserving of punishment. So I fail to see what objection you seem to have Ottoman Reference - unless of course you consider that defending mass murderers and henious arch criminals is somehow a noble thing - for the good of your nation - which I find to be a very twisted view from a variety of angles...and I'm surprised at your seeming ignorance to how these very same men brought total destruction and ruin to your nation as well - while they enriched themselves (and these facts were indeed proven in post-war trials/tribunals and in fact a great many of those whom Nemesis went after had indeed already been condemned to death in various post war Ottoman trials) - then these men simply fled - and with plenty of assistance and coverage - and were living - sometimes luxuriously abroad with no worry or fear of any action taken against them. Well they were wrong and in at least a few cases justice was indeed served. And its rather appauling to see that anyone would take so much effort to defend their names or their reputations or for that matter those people - who as a group - commited such henious crimes against all humanity.--THOTH 03:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue I had with it, was that is was unclear what the link was about, and it linked to an article with a different title. The other issue was that is wasn't technically a military tribunal. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of Nemesis. <<-armon->> 04:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Executors of the Armenian Genocide 

message: Here is what happened to Malta Exiles who were held for some three years, while searches were made of archives in Istanbul, London, Paris and Washington to find proof of their guilt...
On July 19, 1920, Winston S. Churchill, the then Secretary of State in the British War Cabinet, submitted to his Cabinet the following secret memorandum expressing his concerns in the matter of Malta Tribunal:
"I circulate to the Cabinet a long list of prominent Turkish politicians, ex-ministers, generals, deputies and others whom we are still keeping as prisoners at Malta. It seems to me that this list should be carefully revised by the Attorney General, and that those men against whom no proceedings are contemplated should be released at the first convenient opportunity."
PRO?FO. 371/ 5090 and C.P. 1649: Memorandum by the Secretary of State for War (Cabinet) on position of Turkish prisoners interned at Malta, dated July 19,1920.
On March 31,1921, Lord Curzon's telegram to Sir Auckland Geddes, the British Ambassador in Washington:
"There are in hands of Majesty's government at Malta a number of Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacres. There are considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt. Please ascertain if the United States government is in possession of any evidence that would be of value for the purpose of prosecution."
BritishArchives. PRO?F. 0. 371/
6500/ E.3552, Curzon to Geddes
Telegram No 176,dated March 31,1921
 
Sir Auckland Geddes's reply:
"I have made several inquiries at the State Department, and today l am informed that while they are in possession of a large number of documents concerning the Armenian relocations, from the description, I am doubtful whether these documents are likely to prove useful as evidence in prosecuting Turks confined in Malta. Should His Majesty's government so desire, these documents will be placed at the disposal of His Majesty's Embassy on the understanding that the source of information will not be divulged.?"
British Archives: PRO?F. 0.371/ 6500/ E.6311 Geddes to Curzon,
Telegram No 374, dated June 1921.
On July 13, 1921, the British Embassy in Washington replied as follows:
"I have the honor to inform your Lordship that a member of my staff visited the State Department yesterday in regard to the Turks who are at the present being detained in Malta with a view to trial.He was permitted to see a selection of reports from the United States consuls on the subject of the atrocities committed on the Armenians during the recent war.These reports,judged by the State Department to be the most useful for the purpose of His Majesty's government,being chosen from among several hundreds.
I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial in Malta. The reports seen made mention of only two names of the Turkish officials in question those of Sabit bey and Suleyman Faik Pasha and even in these cases the accounts given were confined to the personal opinions of the writers; no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.
Department of State expressed the wish that no information supplied by them in this connection should be employed in a court of law. Having regard to this stipulation, and the fact that the reports in the possession of the Department of State do not appear in any case to contain evidence against these Turks which would be useful even for the purpose of corroborating information already in possession of H. Majesty's government. I believe nothing is to be hoped from addressing any further inquiries to the Department of State in this matter."
British Archives: PRO?F. 0. 371/
6504/E.8515 R.C. Craigie, British
Charge d?Affairs at Washington, to
Lord Curzon, Telegram No 722 of
July 13, 1921
Neutrality has nothing to do with this article. This article is as BIASED as it gets.
71.136.249.174 00:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brits were relying on documents generated and held by the US State Department for their prosecution. US was unwilling to turn these documents over at that time - thus no case. One must understand that there was no precedent for such tribunals - this was potentially breaking new ground. Prosecutions of this type are extremely difficult and of course the Brits were more interested in getting their (extremely politically connected) prisoner(s) back - thus it was too much bother to deal with - particularly as well considering that they had none of the principles - these had already escaped. There were of course trials and convictions by the post-war Ottoman military tribunals that did introduce very specific damning evidence resulting in a number of significant CUP convictions (and death sentences!). We have of course already presented and discussed scholarly analysis regarding CUP destruction of relevant Ottoman Archival documents - as well as the known and proven use of cover orders and secret ones for dealing with the Armenians. The CUP court marshalls you refer to were not for mistreatment of Armenians (though CUP tried to claim this as a cover - beginings of denial already...) - these individuals - mostly Kurds and corrupt local officials - were tried  and convicted primarily of improper appropriation of Armenian (as well as in some case Muslim) properties - where the Ottoman State was cut out - thus these people were convicted - essentially - of stealing from the Ottoman State! The Blue Book is incredibly sourced and the acconts and information are highly corroborated and it was produced with impeccible evidentuary standards. It is absulotely beyond question factual and true - only a denier trying to twist the truth would claim otherwise. Likewise Lepsius and Monganthau's accounts are both corroborated and beyond question. You are attemptint to disparage honorable and respected people who have a proven history of such. Again - its entirely ad hominim and pointless. "All the eyewitnesses were liars" is not a credible defense. Likewise your 500,000 figure of Turks killed by Armenians is entirely laughable and unsupportable. These figures have many times been shown as fabricated (as part of the denials while the Genocide was taking palce even). Get real. There was absolutly no capability for Armenians to do such even if they wished to - this is and has been proven. Plus there does not exist any corraboration for these claims. Why would German officials and ambassadors and laymen alike - citizens and officials of Germany - Turkey's ally during the war - only send reports back documenting the slaughter of Armenians by Turks. If Turks were being slaughtered by Armenains at anywhere near this rate the Germans would have been trumping it up to the world. As they did not - but only expressed horror and embarrasment at the CUP/Ottoman actions - we can see and know what really did occur during this time. I really must again suggest that you refrain from editing this article. Your obvious biases and use of questionable argumentative tactics and willingness to twist facts to make your case make you entirely unsuitable for contribution in this article. Present some scholarly analysis - not this half-baked Tall A Tale type of analysis. And again - the Armenian Genocide is overwhelming accepted by scholars and historians and by all official accounts outside of those of one nation. You cannot hope to change that. You are only wasting our time here.--THOTH 14:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exclusion of this critical piece of information, whether it was due to US unwillingness as argued above by Troth or due to lack of evidence as indicated by the telegram by the British Embassy at Washington at the time, is a clear manifestation of deliberate filtering of historical facts to attain reader sympathy for the armenian position. Neutrality has nothing to do with this article! 71.136.250.254 22:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Earth to Beverly Hills 71-136-250-254  - There were no trials at Malta - there was no prosecution - there was no serious attempt at scouring archives or attempting to find evidence - etc - nothing happened except that the British held these (120? or so) individuals for safekeeping - as they were escaping from the Ottoman jails - and there was some vaugue but undertermined notion that there might eventually be international trials held - for various reasons - including the fact of Allied non-co-operation and the rise of the Nationalists - but more importantly Turkish blackmail and eventual prisoner exchange - nothing ever happened. Its just that simple. Is it that you deniers just have nothing really to go on that you attempt to grasp at such straws - make something out of nothing - and attempt to distort and misrepresent the historical facts? Is it me who is stupid and just can't understand or is it you?--THOTH 06:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The British telegrams I posted initially indicate the contrary. Your personal attacks and personal opinion of what really happened is simply vindicating. Providing partial information is called PROPAGANDA! 71.136.243.163 23:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK then - Please provide details - name(s) of judges, prosecutors, defendents, specific charges against them, verdicts...heck where exatly on Malta where these trials held - at the local YMCA - Inquiring minds want to know! --THOTH 01:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  INDICTMENT is part of the legal process and includes hearings which decide whether there is enough evidence to commit the person(s) to trial. This article in its current form simply HIDES that ~150 top gov. officals and army officers who were held for 2.5 years were repatriated at the end of this process - which is a historical FACT! Your arguing that the trial never took place instead of saying "No evidence found so the contemplated legal actions foiled and the detainees were repatriated after 30 months. (Btw you are welcome to add a paragraph here explaining what went wrong, similar to Aydemir S.S reference under the international trials section)" is simply BIASED! 71.136.243.163 22:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide the indictments filed for these criminals. Extensive coverage of the failed attempts at securing justice against Turks responsible for the Armenian genocide exists in Tanar Akcam's book - A Shameful Act - The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility in two chapters of the book both in Part 3 of the book - The Investigations and Prosecution of the War Crimes and Genocide - Chapter 6 is entitled The Question of Punishing the Turks and Chapter 9 (concerned primarily with the Post War Ottoman Military tribunals and the role of the Nationalists in truncating them) - The Final Phase of the Trials. In Chapter 9 (page 358) he presents the following - "The Allies had mountains of documents related to the Armenian Genocide, but these were mostly general and did not clearly implicate specific individuals. So the problem of finding enough evidence to take individuals to court remained unresolved....a large portion of the relevant documents (held by the Ottomans) had been destroyed or stolen, and there was no coordination between British and Turkish Authorities. The British never requested incriminating documentation. (several specific quotes from British officials follow regarding the hopelessenss of expecting to get such documentation from the Turks...for instance...) "...in August 1919, High Commissioner Calthorpe had said - 'The Turkish Government collected a considerable amount of incriminating evidence, but hoping to lay our hands on it is in vain.' - Admiral de Robeack was similarly concerned. 'It would be hard under these conditions to convict most of the exiles before an Allied court.' Thus, the British ultimatly gave up on the idea of prosecution and decided to hold the exiles as hostages against British prisoners of war." Akcam goes on to describe the fact that the Turkish government was never pressured to provide any evidence and other Allied governments were equally uncooperative. Thus - no "Malta Tribunals" and no trials - to claim such and to claim exoneration of Turks due to such - is fiction - no such thing ever occured - not even any attempt to set up a court or to truly make any attempt to assemble a legal case. So your claim here is faulty in its premiss and concerns entirely fictional speculation and misrepresentation on your part. Prisoner were purly held for a prisoner exchange. While many may have wished to try them - no one ever did nor made any serious attempt to do so. There were absolutly no "legal actions foiled" - to claim such you must provide us the names of the prosecutors and the charges that they filed - you cannot do so - thus you are speaking out of you ass. --THOTH 23:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thus, the British ultimatly gave up on the idea of prosecution = contemplated legal actions foiled. Stop HIDING the FACTS! 71.136.243.163 23:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  Make sure to copy the exact phrase next time. 71.136.243.163 23:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: And again (as I have stated this before in response to a claim that presence of etnic Armenian officials in the ottoman government negates the claim of genocide). If I were to produce a list of Jews who functioned in the Nazi military and government - which I most assuradly can - does this disprove the Holocaust?--THOTH 14:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to Malta Exiles? 

message: During a previous discussion, the idea of a separate section about the opinions in Armenia (both within the Republic of Armenia and among ethnic Armenians) was raised. I would like to bring this idea back to life. I want to suggest creating a draft version here. What should be included? I suggest the following:
*Armenian historians: which historian states what? What is the current state of research? Who are notable Armenian Genocide historians?
*Armenian politicians: how do they think Armenia should position itself with regards to the Armenian Genocide? Which politicians support a dialogue with Turkey and which politicians seek a more confrontational approach? Does it play a role in electoral campaigns? What is the relative weight of the Armenian Genocide in the foreign policy of the Armenian government in comparison to other issues? (I recall THOTH saying above that the current president of Armenia makes much more an issue of this than his predecessor)
*Armenian NGO's: Are there any organisations that deal specifically with victims and their relatives, similar to for instance the Yad Vashem institute in Israel? 
*Armenian deniers: Do they exist? What arguments do they use? What are relevant works? How are they perceived by colleagues and by the public in Armenia?
Any thoughts/additions/suggestions? AecisBrievenbus 23:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems good. A well thought suggestion. We might add few things later. It might be not that easy to find material though. DenizTC 15:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If the near 100% opinion of the Armenian people is that the events constituted a genocide, shouldn't we mention that as well? Because that would raise the question: how do the Armenians feel about the position of Turkey on this matter? If we present the views on the side of the alleged perpetrators (I'm trying to be as diplomatic as I can possibly be towards both sides), shouldn't we also present the views on the side of the victims? AecisBrievenbus 22:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian opinions 

message: Should we clear up the See also section of all those articles that already appear/are wiki-linked in the article itself? It's too long I find. - Fedayee 01:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also section 

message: although the Herero and Namaqua Genocide in German South-West Africa in 1904-1907 is clearly the first organized state genocide as the UN Whitaker report concluded.
Why does including that sentence diminish this article in any way?  Both Armenians and Herero were victims of genocides in their respective colonial empires (ottoman and German) and both genocides were organized and systematic.  80 percent of the total Herero population and 50 percent of the total Nama population were killed, and the UN whitaker report concluded it was the earliest genocide. Bleh999 20:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with your edit was the location. The lead sentence is supposed to give a quick and short information about the article. Talking about other genocides in the lead would throw off the readers. I don't think anybody would mind if you included in the See also section. --VartanM 15:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herero and Namaqua Genocide 

message: An admittedly possibly POV motivated, but by no means completely irrelevant, discussion about the naming of articles such as this one came up on the Talk:Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki page (towards the bottom). I would also direct you here and suggest that consideration be given to renaming the article? Or alternatively NPOV justification of why this shouldn't happen.BeL1EveR 14:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NAME governs article titles - the short of it is - articles are placed at titles that reflect what they're actually called.  WilyD 15:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming 

message: Where is it written that these 40 states recognize the genocide? There needs to be a refrence point of some sort. Briaboru
:See here 40th was Ohio. --VartanM 15:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  40 U.S. States 

message: In the first paragraph there is a sentence that says "The Turkish government rejects the characterization of the events as genocide."
Because in 1918 the Turkish government did accept the reality of the Armenian genocide I think that this sentence has to be clarified like the "The current Turkish government rejects the characterization of the events as genocide."
:Added the word "modern", should fix the problem.DBaba 03:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Turkish government rejects the characterization of the events as genocide. 

message: The position of the international community really seems to be talking about the politics of recognizing the Armenian Genocide.  I don't suppose there would be a campaign for recognition, if not for the Turkish state campaign of denial; and if the denial entry is largely omitted from this entry, so too should the Recognition section.  Also, it's wayyy too long to keep the article in presentable form (not to mention, it's also really not very relevant to the subject matter how the Basque Parliament or the people of New South Wales feel about things.)  Happy to engage in talk with anyone concerned, peace, DBaba 04:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Turkey's position (Armenian Genocide denial) has its own separate page, while recognition does not. Therefore I think it makes sense that recognition receives more information on the main page, as there is no other place to describe it. The Myotis 22:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I created a new page entitled Recognition of the Armenian Genocide.  The section that formerly included this text now links to the new article.  It's a very active section, it looks like things are constantly appended, and the section would only continue to grow; seems like it deserves its own home.  As a side point, I also perceive that section to be a political phenomenon distinct from the actual matter at hand in the AG entry.DBaba 01:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done - I like it!--THOTH 15:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recognition of the Armenian Genocide 

message: I'm a bit concerned about the External links section of the entry. I'm not sure what would be the right way to handle that section. At first I removed a recent addendum myself, because it was described as "Facts"; I found that description to be deliberately misleading.
Nonetheless, I think in retrospect I should have changed the title rather than completely remove the link.  Part of the problem I keep having with some editors (all of whom coincidentally seem to acknowledge Ataturk on their user pages) is that they are insistent that the Armenian Genocide is an Armenian perspective, rather than the perspective of Americans, Germans, Danish, Swedish, British, Turkish, Armenian and others; it's just that some Turkish accounts dispute the photos and eyewitnesses of the vast majority of humankind.  
In any case, the link my dear Wasqar appended might not necessarily be out of place, so long as it's honestly described.  There are already many links in the article to far more extreme Turkish nationalist websites.  I think the link to the Grand National Assembly of Turkey's document collection warrants being repeated in external links...  And I also think those Russian websites could do for better explanation. For now, I'll root out some of those excess links.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?  Any of those genocide-recognition websites look too political to warrant inclusion?DBaba 04:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On second thought, I already see 6 links to revisionist documents in the "Republic of Turkey government and popular opinion" section, and that really does seem to be quite even-handed.  Placing more at the end breaks with the overall topic; it's just not further reading about the Armenian Genocide to go off and read the nationalist "marauding gangs" rigmarole. It seems a bit bizarre to get upset about the exclusion of a 7th link to a nationalist website.  It's important to me that everyone's blood pressure does well here; I don't want Wasqar to be upset, but I think he may be upset because he's being unreasonable.DBaba 05:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I am neither Turkish nor Armenian. I used the word "allege" because unlike the Holocaust, the UN (to the best of my knowledge) hasn't classify this as genocide. Again, this is to the best of my knowledge! 
I am studying in Germany at the moment & have some Armenians & Turkish friends I hang out with (they don't mix). What I observe is that my Armenian friends always use every possibility to stress the genocide. How they do it even when I make observation about Armenian names ending in -yan or -ian really amaze me....
I am curious wether this is typical Armenian? I am NOT complaining, merely curious. Thanx!Rad vsovereign 02:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Bearing Witness to the Holocaust, 1939-1989 By Alan Lewis Berger "The Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust were clear instances of what the UN has called "genocide-in-whole". The word was invented to describe the mass killings of the Armenians and Assyrians and other people. Therefore there is no need for alleged. --Vonones 12:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but one can have his or her own interpretation of international laws (ask Bush...) NOT that I compare Mr. Berger to Bush mind you. What I'd like to know is wether UN or any of her bodies have recognize the alleged genocide. Thanks! Rad vsovereign 16:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure, it doesn't really matter since politics come in the way. Just as the US will not recognize it because of its close relations with Turkey. It can sabotage alot of things. --Vonones 13:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propagating the alleged Genocide 

message: Note:  I've fully protected the page. Although there appears to be a disposition for discussion, there is a dangerous potential for 3RR here. Protection is of course not an endorsement of the current version. I hope you will reach consensus soon, and when you do you may request  at WP:RFPP that the protection be changed to semi. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 22:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: questionable image (the soldiers were Russian according to talk page, the tag might be wrong Wegner died in 1978), POVing of a section, along with removing a sourced statement. The recent addition might violate WP:Recentism, if it doesn't, then we can add it, but not there, which is again POV pushing, Reductio ad Hitlerum kind of. So the question is why did nobody else revert? DenizTC 04:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a main article on the casualties with various different sources, the sections title explicitly says between 1915 to 1918, so how sourced it might be it does not go there, the section speak of 1915-1918 while Toynbee paper was written in 1915 and published beginning of 1916. As for Britannica, over the years it changed its figures and versions, but in its other entry it does include the range 600,000 to 1,5 million, just like Encarta, even the Assembly of Turkish American association figures is included there. Besides, the claim that 1,5 million is from the modern republic of Armenia isen't even true, that figure originate from the Germans, Armenia few years ago provided if my memory doesn't fail, 1,3 million. Fo those reasons, and many others, the intro of the other article as a replacement to that section is the best thing to do. Drosophilawhodoestnotfly 05:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any answer? Drosophilawhodoestnotfly 17:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The image is referenced to the US archives. --Vonones 22:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All I see is an Armenian contingent in the Tsarist army being underessed probably by a division of the third army to dress with it. The picture does not go there as it is not really Genocide picture. Drosophilawhodoestnotfly 22:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides, what happened to the pictures which Raffi obtained permissions from the holders of copyright to be used on Wikipedia? Drosophilawhodoestnotfly 22:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  my revert 

message: Do you mean the "Turkish Genocide" (Irving L. Horowitz)  as the genocide against the Ottoman Armenians in 1915/16 or can´t you write correct English ? SoE 80.136.107.218 16:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WHAT GENOCIDE ?

message: If even this source is radical, its a denial of the Armenian Genocide as dedicated to another "version" of events by Turkish state organization, so its represent state views on the topic.Andranikpasha 12:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of the source by Turkish General Staff