Talk:Lesbian utopia

message: In order to provide full context for continuing discussion here, I'm copying over the conversation that has taken place to date at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Lesbian race. --Yksin 16:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the creator & only contributer thus far is  -- a fairly new editor, a bit inexperienced.  Mainly this editor has worked on lesbian topics.  I would assume good faith with this editor, but perhaps write to her (I'm guessing it's a her, anyway, given the topic she's editing) on her talk page, & try to ascertain what she's on about.  She created a redirect page to this article called Lesbian utopia, which seems to be the overall idea driving her -- a sort of politically driven ideal of a nation based on reproduction by parthenogenesis -- which has had some relevance to some lesbian separatists; I'm not sure about it's notability though.  And in its current state the article seems to have a lot of original research in it -- as a new editor, she may not be aware of such policies.  I'd personally recommend that this article & Lesbian utopia be switched, so that Lesbian utopia become the actual article, as there is a lot of utopian or semi-utopian fiction out there that posits a female-only & lesbian society (e.g., Sally Miller Gearhart's The Wanderground, or the work of Suzy McKee Charnas), with this biological stuff being included in answer to "would such societies really be possible?" In sum, I think maybe this editor just needs some guidance on Wikipedia policies & the advice & help of other editors, rather than a speedy on her article. --Yksin 00:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw that too, and didn't know what to do with it. Is there another article that addresses lesbian separatists in the same vein as written by Charlotte Perkins Gilman (Herland) or Katherine V. Forrest's Daughters of a Coral Dawn series? Or discusses the separatist movement in the 70s? In one of the articles I read for Patience and Sarah, a commune of women wore the novel around their necks...There is a place for an article that discusses radical lesbian separatism, but I don't think it should be titled "race". There's no ethnicity or anthropological feature connected to lesbianism.  --Moni3 00:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't forget A Door into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski (and in fact her other books in the "Daughter of Elysium" series. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Lesbian separatism redirects to Separatist feminism, which has just a brief section on lesbian separatism -- a pretty inadequate one, & its one literature reference is to a lesbian separatist community depicted in the Gaea trilogy novels of John Varley (which are actually pretty good, & in my opinion fair in their depiction of lesbianism though in novels written by a man).  I think lesbian separatism deserves its own article; but I also don't think what this editor is driving at is exactly the same thing.  Seems to me she wants something like what novels that have lesbian societies in them -- like Gearhart's, Charnas' Holdfast Chronicles (which aren't exactly utopic), Gilman's, Forrest's -- but in actual biological fact.  But better probably to ask her, & bring her into this conversation.  Or bring this conversation to her. --Yksin 00:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dropped a note on the user's talkpage. Can't believe ya'll saw that and made no comment! Whoa is me! ZueJay (talk) 01:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dropped a note too, with a link back to this discussion & also invited her to join the project. I hope we'll see her here. --Yksin 01:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think "race" is the right title for this, either. But I am in full support of having a lesbian separatism article, which I can see including the "lesbian Utopia" article as well as the information in this one. I suspect most people would never think to look up "lesbian race" as a search term, and thus would miss this.Kootenayvolcano 01:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, "race" is not a good word for this. It may be a matter of User765 not knowing the best name for it herself. I actually see a place for two articles: Lesbian separatism and Lesbian utopia (both of which are currently redirects, to Separatist feminism & Lesbian race, respectively).  Anyway, I'm adding the LGBT project template to the talk page for this article, & maybe we can continue this discussion there. --Yksin 01:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Conversation copied over from [[WT:LGBT]]

message: ===Move to "Lesbian reproductive biology"===
* Support (I also support other renaming proposals) Gwen Gale 15:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article "lesbian reproductive biology" to me implies how lesbians go about getting pregnant and having children: turkey basters, IVF, etc. This article addresses how all-female societies, mostly in animals, reproduce. Lesbianism as the sexual and romantic attraction to women is not necessarily a factor in that.  Is there a term that would be more appropriate, like "Reproduction without males" if the focus of the article is mainly on biology? Or if there is to be a more inclusive article, should it address radial lesbian separatism and have this biological aspect a portion of that article? --Moni3 15:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think turkey basters would be more like Lesbian reproductive strategies. That said, so far lesbian reproductive biology is the only term I've thought of so far which isn't an unsupportable neologism. Sadly, it is not short 'n sweet. :( As for putting this in Lesbian separatist, there are also non-separatist lesbians who would likely embrace this kind of thing. Gwen Gale 15:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For that matter, there are straight women or women who consider themselves asexual who would embrace it too. --Moni3 16:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I like Yksin's idea more than mine. Gwen Gale 16:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: * Support (I also support other renaming proposals) Gwen Gale 15:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article "lesbian reproductive biology" to me implies how lesbians go about getting pregnant and having children: turkey basters, IVF, etc. This article addresses how all-female societies, mostly in animals, reproduce. Lesbianism as the sexual and romantic attraction to women is not necessarily a factor in that.  Is there a term that would be more appropriate, like "Reproduction without males" if the focus of the article is mainly on biology? Or if there is to be a more inclusive article, should it address radial lesbian separatism and have this biological aspect a portion of that article? --Moni3 15:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think turkey basters would be more like Lesbian reproductive strategies. That said, so far lesbian reproductive biology is the only term I've thought of so far which isn't an unsupportable neologism. Sadly, it is not short 'n sweet. :( As for putting this in Lesbian separatist, there are also non-separatist lesbians who would likely embrace this kind of thing. Gwen Gale 15:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For that matter, there are straight women or women who consider themselves asexual who would embrace it too. --Moni3 16:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I like Yksin's idea more than mine. Gwen Gale 16:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to "Lesbian reproductive biology"

message: * Support. As is probably obvious from my comment above, this is the move/rename I support. It would support addition of information about a significant body of lesbian & feminist literature which explores all-female societies, many of which also explore reproductive strategies of those societies, which the biological information already in this article lends support to. It also seems to reflect the article originator's intent with this article, as indicated in the article's current first sentence, ""Lesbian race, or lesbian utopia, refers a conceptual community made entirely of women whom are not dependent on men for anything, most notably reproduction," which hopefully would lead to  collaborating with other editors who've been drawn to this article. Another possibility might be Lesbian separatism (which currently redirects to Separatist feminism; but I think that article be developed as mainly as a historical treatment of lesbian separatism --Yksin 16:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to [[Lesbian utopia]] (over redirect)

message: It might be useful to compile a list of books, stories, etc. that contain all female societies, esp. if they also discuss the reproductive strategies used by those societies. Please feel free to add to it.  Don't restrict to the English language. If you know of other sources (nonfiction, theoretical, etc.) which touches on these questions, please include them. --Yksin 17:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is, like, more than 3 women, right? Women who make it a point to live in all-female societies, or are stranded in all-female socies. Are we also including prison and convents? --Moni3 17:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, more than three women.  I think that also can widen the scope to real-life all-female societies such as those created by lesbian separatists, but again, I think we should have two articles -- Lesbian utopia & Lesbian separatism, the first which is about the more "speculative" ideas as depicted especially in literature, & the other focusing on the history & current manifestations of lesbian separatism -- which goes as wide as the politics of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival or lesbian communes, etc. I don't think we should included, whether in this list or in those articles, prisons & convents -- one which is a coercive rather than voluntary community where a lot of the sexuality is distorted by that; & the other with is a presumably nonsexual religious community (though of course we know from the classic nonfiction study Lesbian Nuns that there's lot of lesbianism there, just like in the military). The intent of those societies is a lot different. --Yksin 17:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wtf are socies? Why do I spell like that sometimes? Anyway, what about boarding schools and sororities? --Moni3 17:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say that they also have a different intent.  Maybe I should have titled this section "Books/stories/etc. with all-female lesbian societies", I dunno... basically, the idea is, an all-female society which fit the ideal of "lesbian utopia", in which the primary affectional/sexual relationships are between women.  This would leave out of this list, for example, The Gate to Women's Country by Sheri S. Tepper, which posits women & men living separately, but still all sexual relationships are heterosexual -- in fact, according to the article on that book, "it also depicts homosexuality as a genetic and hormonal disorder which has been eugenically removed from the population."  (Which turned me off from reading the book, struck me as homophobic, though I have enjoyed other Tepper novels.) --Yksin 18:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Found this great link re: Utopian SF books and parthenogenesis: http://feministsf.org/bibs/parthenogenesis.html Kootenayvolcano 18:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi all- I must have missed out on the conversation where the booklist was removed from the article and added to the discussion. I thought it was a valuable part of the article. Why was it decided to remove it? Kootenayvolcano 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: A classic, first published by the lesbian publisher Persephone Press way back in the days. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I have all of these -- even wrote a review of the first two for Gay Community News (Boston) when I was in college. I haven't read The Conqueror's Child yet, though. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Written by a man, but he's got strong female characters (a Varley trait), & two major characters come from an all-female society which gets a lot of discussion. There's also a lesbian relationship between the two major characters, Cirocco Jones & Gaby Plauget (though Cirocco is not exclusively lesbian). --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: SatyrTN wrote "Don't forget A Door into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski (and in fact her other books in the "Daughter of Elysium" series." Yes! Love that book. Sclonczewski isn't herself a lesbian, to my knowledge, but the society depicted in that novel certainly is.  She's also a Professor of Biology at  Kenyon University College.  Her web page there has a link to a page at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute on "teach[ing] ahead of the textbook" on Reproduction: Molecular and Cellular Biology, which might be mined for good sources/info for this article. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Another classic. Three Four different women who "might" be the "same" woman. One of them comes from the planet Whileaway, where a disease caused the men to die out; the women worked out reproductive strategies to continue on. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Another classic. I haven't read it, but I think it's an all-female society. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Winner of the James Tiptree, Jr. Award and the Lambda Award. This is also a planet where disease wiped out the men, or at least most of them. The James Tiptree, Jr. Award has to do with explorations of gender in speculative fiction (science fiction) that more or less explode gender myths; in the case of Ammonite, Griffith was lauded by judges for depicting an all-female society which avoided romanticizing such a society as necessarily all peaceful & sweet & nurturing -- there were some pretty violent characters in it. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Critical evaluation of several feminist utopias. I'm familiar with some but not all of them, so don't know if all of these posit all-female societies. But I have this book, so I can find out. She discusses: Charlotte Perkins GilmanHerland, Les Guérillères by Monique Wittig, The Female Man by Joanna Russ, Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy (does not posit an all-female society), Walk to the End of the World and Motherlines by Suzy McKee Charnas, Archaos, ou le jardin étincelant by Christine Rochefort, A Weave of Woman by E.M. Broner, The Eugelionne by Louky Bersianik, The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books/stories/etc. with all-female societies 

message: *Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
*Vandread, the Japanese anime (Segregated all-female and all-male societies)
*Daughters of a Coral Dawn series by Katherine V. Forrest
*Don't hit me - Wonder Woman and her Amazons
* The Wanderground by Sally Miller Gearhart
:A classic, first published by the lesbian publisher Persephone Press way back in the days. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have all of these -- even wrote a review of the first two for Gay Community News (Boston) when I was in college. I haven't read The Conqueror's Child yet, though. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Written by a man, but he's got strong female characters (a Varley trait), & two major characters come from an all-female society which gets a lot of discussion. There's also a lesbian relationship between the two major characters, Cirocco Jones & Gaby Plauget (though Cirocco is not exclusively lesbian). --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: SatyrTN wrote "Don't forget A Door into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski (and in fact her other books in the "Daughter of Elysium" series." Yes! Love that book. Sclonczewski isn't herself a lesbian, to my knowledge, but the society depicted in that novel certainly is.  She's also a Professor of Biology at  Kenyon University College.  Her web page there has a link to a page at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute on "teach[ing] ahead of the textbook" on Reproduction: Molecular and Cellular Biology, which might be mined for good sources/info for this article. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Another classic. Three Four different women who "might" be the "same" woman. One of them comes from the planet Whileaway, where a disease caused the men to die out; the women worked out reproductive strategies to continue on. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Another classic. I haven't read it, but I think it's an all-female society. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Winner of the James Tiptree, Jr. Award and the Lambda Award. This is also a planet where disease wiped out the men, or at least most of them. The James Tiptree, Jr. Award has to do with explorations of gender in speculative fiction (science fiction) that more or less explode gender myths; in the case of Ammonite, Griffith was lauded by judges for depicting an all-female society which avoided romanticizing such a society as necessarily all peaceful & sweet & nurturing -- there were some pretty violent characters in it. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fiction

message: * Feminist Utopias (1989) by Frances Bartkowski.
:Critical evaluation of several feminist utopias. I'm familiar with some but not all of them, so don't know if all of these posit all-female societies. But I have this book, so I can find out. She discusses: Charlotte Perkins GilmanHerland, Les Guérillères by Monique Wittig, The Female Man by Joanna Russ, Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy (does not posit an all-female society), Walk to the End of the World and Motherlines by Suzy McKee Charnas, Archaos, ou le jardin étincelant by Christine Rochefort, A Weave of Woman by E.M. Broner, The Eugelionne by Louky Bersianik, The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. --Yksin 17:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism

message: Examples in fiction, real world examples cited in non-fiction, maybe some sundry criticism (by lesbians I would hope), I can think of others but these three would (only IMHO though) helpful. Cheers. Gwen Gale 17:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't forgotten my commitment to this article -- specifically to the fiction examples stuff. But I realized that I've stacked up a few commitments to various articles, & I'm confusing myself. So... I'm in the process both of organizing my work & then working on the various articles I've made a commitment to on Wikipedia.  Right now I'm more actively working on Battle of Washita River, as those commitments are of longest standing; but I will be back here as soon as I can be. --Yksin 02:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Yksin and so you know, I only posted this so other editors who stumble across this article will understand further development is on the way :) Gwen Gale 02:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article needs more sections

message: Here are the two remaining assertions which do need citations. I'll say straight off, though I didn't put them in the text myself (only re-worded them a bit for flow), I tend to agree with these assertions and think they are reasonable, have thought about them before and have read/heard snippets along these lines (hence they're nobody's OR). So I think they belong in the article but very much need to be wholly supported by a secondary source (and not through spanned citations, which I could easily do myself).
*In the most direct method, two women would always produce another female due to the absence of a Y chromosome.
*Because of genetic or environmental factors this female offspring might be more likely to also be lesbian.
Gwen Gale 17:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first does not require a citation I believe, in that it isn't likely to be challenged and falls under common knowledge (2X+2X always yields 2X and therefore a female). As for the latter, I removed it pending verification.(It sounds far-fetched). Cheers—Cronholm144 09:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the most direct (but still speculative) method, two women would always produce another female due to the absence of a Y chromosome. Because of genetic or environmental factors this female offspring might be more likely to also be lesbian.
Neither is any more farfetched than the other, neither is supported by a reliable citation. I've looked some and can't find any support for them yet. I've no doubt both statements are more or less reasonable and supportable (and no I didn't put either of them in the article) but IMHO so many editors are expressing concerns (which I understand) I think they should be kept here for now. Gwen Gale 09:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I haven't been able to turn up anything on the topic using JSTOR or google scholar, perhaps the person who added the material can shed some light on where to find some sources.—Cronholm144 20:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncited stuff - help!

message: I think adding this article to Category:Sexism could be highly misleading and PoV. Comments? Gwen Gale (talk) 03:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Might I suggest that you go right back to Conservapedia with your outlandish "all feminists want to kill all men" nonsense? 77.250.97.191 (talk) 11:56, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Category:Sexism

message: The reproduction section strays off topic and seems a bit misplaced. Rewrite or removal seems necessary. 
Also does anyone know any advocates for a lesbian utopia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lookingthrough (talk • contribs) 14:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reproduction section & quick note 

message: I'm sure this article deserves to exist, but as it is right now there are major issues. The bulk of the article appears to be a report of mixed results from one very strange experiment involving mice and a disorganized list of "lesbian utopia" fiction. Also, it doesn't help to have sentences worded like, "...without male assistance." It makes the article sound like teenage anti-male complaining.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Myrkkyhammas (talk • contribs) 18:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Feminist speculations and feminist-influenced science fiction were a somewhat notable phenomenon of the 1970s.  However, the article seems to express a rather personal perspective... AnonMoos (talk) 01:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bizarre article 

message: I'm afraid that Gendercide is the goal of all feminist in all its forms because they all find everything misogynistic, they all blame and hate the entire male gender for women's oppression and all ignore the fact that men suffer similar situations as women and anyone who says feminist should be about equality and not supremacy is called a straw misogynist by all feminist.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.223.221 (talk) 04:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "men suffer similar situations as women" What is the reverse equivalent (and prevalence) of Female genital mutilation, rape, honor killing?  I know a number of lesbians who don't fit your image.  Maybe you should broaden your horizons? Jim1138 (talk) 04:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Men aren't raped?  The Mark of the Beast (talk) 05:00, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And prevalence.  How many men walk down a dark street fearing rape compared to women? Jim1138 (talk) 05:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Prevalence a few men might fear it, but most women do. Jim1138 (talk) 10:32, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe I answered your first question in a previous post.  As to the second, you made said that, not I.  BTW: please sign your posts with ~~~~ Jim1138 (talk) 11:01, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Gee, I wonder why so few women feel inclined to take part in editing Wikipedia. It's not like the articles on feminism and women's issues are dominated by sexist guys who believe it's a giant conspiracy to neuter all the men. 77.250.97.191 (talk) 11:58, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Debate on feminism

message: *http://laedel.orgfree.com/atea.htm (in russian)
--Jugydmort (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lesbian utopia in fiction 

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