Talk:Return of the Jedi

message: George Lucas says PALPATINE DIED. He is apparently upset Disney brought the Character back in this way:
https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/george-lucas-reportedly-unhappy-palpatines-return-star-wars-rise-skywalker/
Straight from Ian McDiarmid's mouth:
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/1114632/Star-Wars-9-Rise-of-Skywalker-Ian-McDiarmid-Palpatine-death-George-Lucas-Phantom-Menace
The subsequent non-lucas sequel should be ignored, at least until the movie comes out and fully clarifies it's "Return of Palpatine" plot points, since it's likely he will remain having died in Jedi(it will likely be some kind of ressurection or a clone or a hologram). Colliric (talk) 11:31, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: From the perspective of Return of the Jedi we don't actually know Palpatine's fate. He got thrown down a shaft but we don't actually know his ultimate fate, the movie doesn't tell us. Canterbury Tail talk 12:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus version has been, for years, that the Emperor died. He’s dead. We’ll see what happens in the Rise of Skywalker, but as of right now the film is not out. Toa Nidhiki05 13:41, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The word death has swung back and forth constantly over the years for this article according to the history, we've never talked or reached a consensus on it. The article actually needs to abide by WP:FILMPLOT so we can only describe what is seen on screen. Palpatine's death is actually extrapolation, interpretive original research, as it's not in the movie or mentioned in the movie. Note, I've been ignoring anything about the new movie so I don't know what the talk about him in relation to that is about. I'm basing this purely on Return of the Jedi and we don't see Palpatine die, and no one mentions it. As a result unless we have a reliable source supporting that he dies, we cannot actually say he dies, just describe what happens on screen. Canterbury Tail talk 13:59, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

text: Problem here is we don’t see him die. We don’t know what the shaft energy is and as Wikipedia editors we’re prohibited from making the assumption he dies in the Death Star explosion. All we can do is explain what we see on screen with zero interpretation, analysis or connecting of dots. This is a core tenant of this project in general, we can’t say what isn’t on screen. As editors it’s against the project in general to interpret. We can say he was thrown down the shaft. We can say there was some kind of energy explosion. We can say the Death Star explodes. We can’t say he dies as we don’t see it. We can let the reader make that assumption but we can’t make it for them. Canterbury Tail talk 19:38, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: 100% agree with Canterbury Tail. As far as plots go on this encyclopedia, it doesn't matter what the creators say in interviews. It only matters what is explicitly seen in the film without interpretation. UpdateNerd (talk) 09:59, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

text: So it seems from a policy and process perspective we agree that we can't say died as it didn't happen on screen. Any policy reasons not to remove the definitive about death and only describe what is actually seen on screen? Canterbury Tail talk 15:23, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That’s a misinterpretation or policy and not how things are done, so no. The movie isn’t ambiguous about what happened. Toa Nidhiki05 15:32, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No it's not, the movie doesn't show what you're claiming. It may be interpreted in that way, but we don't see it. Plot is for what we see on screen without interpretation. Canterbury Tail talk 18:55, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Incorrect. Per WP:FILMPLOT, secondary sources can be used. He is dead, unless something changes in episode 9. This does not need a source, it’s patently obvious. He is thrown into a pit and it explodes, along with the Death Star. Toa Nidhiki05 19:05, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Then source it. As it stands it's not obvious or shown that Palpatine dies. Plenty of other people make it off the Death Star and had further to travel to escape. I'm not suggesting for a second that his death wasn't the intent, but it's not on the screen, it's not mentioned in the official script and as a result it's an interpretation something as Wikipedia editors we're prohibited from doing. It's an interpretation, extrapolation and original research. Canterbury Tail talk 19:24, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: His death was only assumed because it was the final chapter for many years. But to be fair Luke falls down a massive shaft in The Empire Strikes back and survives, so it is not unreasonable that there could have been an alternative outcome. If George Lucas had intended for his death to be so emphatic he could have framed it in many different ways, instead of choosing a "death" that mirrored the end of the previous film in which the main hero survived. A plot summary doesn't have to describe events on screen verbatim (many things are never shown on screen due to time constraints and censorship issues—for example you never see James Bond have sex despite the clear implication) but summaries must form a straightforward reading of the film. If something is left open to interpretation, ambiguous or open-ended then that needs to be clear in the summary. Betty Logan (talk) 23:11, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That gives a majority for making the summary use the more ambiguous wording. Keeping the word "apparent" in there should make everyone happy. It's also a ridiculous thing to edit-war over when there's a new movie coming out next week. But that shouldn't effect the wording here, as consensus rules that we should focus on what's seen onscreen. UpdateNerd (talk) 13:43, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

text: So, TRoS confirms Palpatine did die. He said it himself. He somehow came back, however. Toa Nidhiki05 19:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not seen TROS but anyway that’s irrelevant to the plot of Return of the Jedi as the film was made and shown. We don’t see a death and the script doesn’t describe a death. We can only go by what’s in the movie and his death isn’t. You’ve been asked to supply reliable sources that he died in the original filming and release of Return of the Jedi but none have been forthcoming, yet you continue to revert editors who are trying to implement policy. Retconned stuff or later references don’t count, this article is about the release and film of RotJ. Canterbury Tail talk 23:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: What you are saying is complete nonsense. Full stop. If you have an issue with it, add the citation yourself, but it's patently obvious he died, every single source says he died, and TRoS says he died. You are in the wrong here. Toa Nidhiki05 00:50, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As much as I was expecting the new film to flashback and reveal how the Emperor "escaped", this never happened, and it actually confirmed that he died. How he came back is a mystery unrelated to the plot of RotJ. UpdateNerd (talk) 11:04, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

text: @Canterbury Tail: I get where you're coming from, but here's another way of looking at it. Imagine a scene where we see a gravely-ill character being visited in the hospital. Next thing we see is family and friends mourning at a funeral. We didn't actually see the death occur, but that wouldn't prevent us from including the basic interpretation that the character died in a plot summary. Maybe it's not as obvious with Palpatine, but there's enough to draw the same conclusion. We are led to believe the threat of the Empire is over with Palpatine falling to his death, and then it eventually cuts to a celebration. They wouldn't be celebrating, much like we wouldn't witness a funeral in the example I gave, if the death didn't occur. Is it still an assumption on the part of the characters, and could the characters be wrong? Sure, but stating Palpatine died is in agreement with the perspective we've been given. To describe it as "presumed death" or anything else would paint an unnecessary interpretation that goes against the grain of what we've been shown. --GoneIn60 (talk) 12:07, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

text: I'm right there with you, but that still means he died in VI even if he was resurrected afterwards. UpdateNerd (talk) 11:03, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah @User:AmericanAir88 @User:UpdateNerd when Anakin throws him down the shaft and he becomes out of frame you see an explosion happen. And in The Rise Of Skywalker, Kylo says "You'll die first", to which Palpy Boy confirms he died in that explosion by responding "I have died before. The dark side of The Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural", before giving him a shit-eating grin  Stephanie921 (talk) 17:11, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palpatine's Death 

message: and . In TROS,  Palpatine says he’s “died before,” a clear reference to his plunge in Episode VI". However, Episode 6 never shows the emperor physically dying. Given his massive amount of power and force, Palpatine could have faked his death in order to start building The Final Order Fleet. It is established in the movie that Palpatine is only living through the use of machines that keep him "alive". He has no eyes and is very disfigured. In order for Palpatine to actually "live", he needed the life of Rey and Ren sucked out of them and into him. Cloning doesn't seem to be the reason.
It's not a shocker that Palpatine could have survived Episode 6 and went into hiding. It's also not a shocker that Palpatine could have the power of resurrection, just like REN DID TO REY. Palpatine was barely functioning and was on life support, his whole plan with Rey and Ren was to have them be killed for him to be fully alive again. 
AmericanAir88(talk)  17:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm right there with you, but that still means he died in VI even if he was resurrected afterwards. UpdateNerd (talk) 11:03, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah @User:AmericanAir88 @User:UpdateNerd when Anakin throws him down the shaft and he becomes out of frame you see an explosion happen. And in The Rise Of Skywalker, Kylo says "You'll die first", to which Palpy Boy confirms he died in that explosion by responding "I have died before. The dark side of The Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural", before giving him a shit-eating grin  Stephanie921 (talk) 17:11, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: TROS take aways

message: Hello,
A few days ago, I posted a source that supported the idea that Han Solo was not killed off because of merchandise sales, and one source that supported the idea that it was also Howard Kazanjian who told George Lucas about changing the name. Instead of suggesting fixing my wording or phrasing my work was entirely deleted, even though I used valid and credible sources in my edits. So, if you guys could tell me what to do in order to get my edits back on this page, that would be greatly appreciated. (I realize my Luke and Leia edit involving J.W Rinzler was out of place, and I admit that it wasn't needed)
Thank you.  Mobfighter63 (talk) 01:46, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliability/Credibility of recent Return of the Jedi Sources. 

message: It is written, Luke was one of the last jedi knights. But he is not a full Jedi yet, at least Yoda says so, only by the end. KhlavKhalash (talk) 16:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: In the real world, it doesn't matter that we're not in-universe nitpicky. DonQuixote (talk) 16:15, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Character description 

message: I tried adding with a source that clarifies the critical response for the Prequels was more mixed amongst fans as it tended to be the older generation of fans and critics that were more polarized but the younger generation even as kids tended to be more positive of them but it got edited out. I think it's necessary to tell this side of the story as it's part of history. As while "polarized" tells a part of the story it seems more leaning to what the older generation of fans thought. Joe12Hawk (talk) 17:26, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critical Response