Talk:George Galloway/Archive 3

message: Am I correct that the section conflates some comments of, and issues relating to, his second wife with his first? Even if that is not the case there is still the problem that the section then doesn't mention his second wife at all. Further, there's something of a hostile tone when you cover a person's marriages with four sentences, one "he was married to her from this date to that date" and then the other three to covering intimations of adultery. It really again demonstrates a negative undercurrent that is found here and there throughout this article. I don't have the familiarity or time to improve this section now, I do applaud anyone who could so. DanielM 20:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flawed and Inadequate "Early and personal life" section 

message: reference to his being Scottish and British seemed superfluous and inaccurate. If he is a Scottish politician, he is a British politician by default. Mentioning him to be Scottish as well as British would seem to imply that he has been or is not only an MP but an MSP, which he is not.
The opening sentence starts very badly, the word Scottish and politician needs separating:
"George Galloway (born 16 August 1954 in Dundee) is a Scottish politician and author..."
He is Scottish, he is a politician, but he must not be described a "Scottish politician" (although I'm sure he would liked to be a Scottish politician, and also be considered by others as such)
Starting with this poor use of English or syntax (whichever) stopped me reading any further. Put "Scotland" after Dundee if this word is important.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.211.130 (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish/British 

message: Isn't the whole thing now much, much too long? Galloway is an interesting and currently controversial figure, but does he really merit this many screenfulls? I would suggest the following sections and sub-sections could be much shorter:
2005 Election<BR />
Daily Telegraph<BR />
US Senate (the whole hearing lasted about as long as it takes to read this piece!)<BR />
Celebrity Big Brother (is it really that newsworthy!?)<BR />
Overall I think we could manage with about half the length. Be interested to hear views.
MarkThomas 15:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, tried lots of cutting to try to shorten and precision the whole thing, which increasingly just seems to be rants between the various factions. Also cut out my own stuff as well, in case accusations of bias come my way. Comments/further edits welcomed. Mark. MarkThomas 17:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: (1) It's not nuetral, it's basically a fight between pro- and anti- Galloway factions. (2) if it's not too long, why do we have that great big sign saying it is?? What I'm doing is not vandalising but attempting to make sense of this very over-long page full of pointless vitriol, point scoring, justifications, etc, etc, all of which really belong to journalism not WP. At the moment this article is longer than the one ones on Adolf Hitler, Karl Marx and Lenin to name but 3. Is Galloway really more significant than these people? If this is really vandalism then what point is there editing anything on WP - might as well make it Usenet! MarkThomas 18:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You seem to be as ignorant of Wikipedia and it's aims as you do of Galloway's real character. There are many, many precedents and objections on WP to having articles of too great a length, and there is also a real need to have some sort of perceived relationship between article length and the importance of the subject under discussion. Unfortunately just a few users are feeding Galloways' already hugely over-inflated ego by padding this page. I am simply trying to wikify it. MarkThomas 19:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have severely trimmed and de-POV'ed the ramblings of the pro-Galloway factions. No doubt they will return them shortly! MarkThomas 17:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Whole thing now much too long

message: (Comments by Freedom Fan removed as being in contravention of WP:BLP as unsourced or poorly sourced negative comments about a living person. Also, some of the comments may also be in breach of WP:OR or WP:NPOV in terms of placing a personal interpretation on the meaning of direct quotations. Please see below for further comments). Road Wizard 17:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been asked to look at your comments by the previous editor who removed them. Unfortunately, while you may believe that what you have said is true, and there is a possibility that it may be true, there is no evidence that you have supplied to say it is true. As such your previous comments are in breach of several Wikipedia policies. These are primarily, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Also, as you have placed your own interpretations on comments made by George Galloway, you may have also breached Wikipedia:No original research. If you wish to restore your comments, as you have stated above, you will need to modify them significantly to meet each of the policies listed above. Any such comments you do leave will need to be supported directly by reliable sources. If you continue to restore "unsourced or poorly sourced negative material" about George Galloway, then that material will again be removed and a formal warning placed on your talk page. Please take this opportunity to take a step back and rephrase your comments so that they no longer breach our policies. Thank you. Road Wizard 17:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, we can read or listen the above and make up our own minds. But given that Mr. Galloway has not been convicted of treason, I am pleased that this time you have decided to stick to quoting him. Viewfinder 06:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added the video in which al-qaeda talks about its respect and admiration for George.Hypnosadist 12:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further comment

message: An "alleged" rapist and murderer?
You people have got to be kidding me!?
71.125.240.212 19:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For purposes of neutrality and factuality it is WP policy not to include allegations as absolute fact unless there is proof and/or a conviction for the alleged behaviour.GiollaUidir 21:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Uday Hussein

message: There doesn't seem to be a consistent approch to giving sources for information. Some statements have a the link box [This is a link] after them and others have the reference box.This is a reference. See Is there any reason for this or is a tidy up in order??GiollaUidir 21:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: About seven or eight months ago someone ran some sort of script on the Galloway article that converted the standard Wikipedia references to footnote-style references. The problem is that no-one adds new references in the footnote style so after time has passed you get a mixed mess. In my opinion the footnote style should not be used at all. It takes up even more screen geography and doesn't have any real superiorities that I can see. A tidy up is certainly in order (several links are dead too, no doubt) but there's some drudgery involved there. DanielM 21:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the footnote style as it allows you to get a brief idea of the context of the source and how valid it's likely to be. Got a few hours before I start work, may as well make a start on getting it consistent! GiollaUidir 15:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blegh, I've made all the references and links a consistent appearance. Might try making them all the same long wiki markup thing but I have neither the knowledge of what to put in nor a lack of better things to do with my time. Surely a script-thing/bot could do it? GiollaUidir 21:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks and works a lot better. Thanks for the hard work that benefited the article. DanielM 13:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References/links

message: I clipped the text in personal life section that said it was anomalous that he attended the Harris Academy. The implication I suppose was that because his mother was Catholic he would therefore be going to a Catholic school. I also clipped the text about his mother being Irish-Catholic because if we are going to get into that then we should also say what ethnicity/religion his father was. DanielM 13:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anomalously and mother's extraction 

message: Not so POV any more, there, i fixed it for you. Project2501a 17:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to find factual and less POV form of wording that will be acceptable to both sides. If either party disagrees then they should continue the debate here rather than break WP:3RR.
Thanks but what you have written is still not backed up with any evidence so should be deleted. I happen to think this is a slur and an untruth. I think the sentence inserted by MarkThomas - who has a history of POV-pushing on the George Galloway page(see his talk page, and his own extreme statements above here!) should be deleted, rather than very slightly watered down. Is this how wikipedia works???? --SandyDancer 19:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, negative material needs to be cited, see WP:BLP, and this paragraph should not have been added without citation. But he is certainly a critic of Israel, and there does seem to me to be citable evidence that he puts forward reasons for, rather than condemns outright, attacks on civilians and that too could be construed as negative. I think it is now up to Mark Thomas to find an appropriate citation; otherwise the paragraph should be deleted. Over to you, Mark. Viewfinder 19:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There having been no response or citation given by Mark Thomas, I will remove the controversial part of the above mentioned paragraph, although his opposition to Israel should remain. Meanwhile Mark Thomas has added a "personality disorders" category, also without citation, which I have also removed. By the way I have never had anything to do with the SWP. I am merely trying to ensure that WP:BLP is adhered to - which means that uncited negative material should be removed. Viewfinder 02:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, the personality disorders category had already been removed. Viewfinder 02:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Why does pro-Galloway material not need citation but anti-Galloway material need it? Anyway, we've all been here before. Just to correct any misunderstanding on your part Viewfinder, I was certainly not alleging that you are SWP; just that anyone who has been around this page for some time cannot help but notice that there is a fierce little cabal of unswervingly pro-Galloway editors who defend him regardless of facts and systematically attempt to remove all the many unpleasant, embarassing and stupid things Galloway says. It's very difficult not to believe that these folks are part of Respect/SWP/STW/Al Quaeda or whoever Galloway has managed to con / is aligned with this week to stay in office and keep his salary flowing. Or they could all just be random WP people who've carefully read all the notes and concluded objectively that GG is marvellous and how dare anyone say not!! The cite thing is just a smokescreen - there are already hundreds of wrong flattering statements on the page that are uncited. Perhaps someone should just start again with this whole page. MarkThomas 08:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Israel-Hezbollah Conflict

message: Does this politician really have history as leader of Dundee City Council, as is claimed in "Dundee"? Laurel Bush 16:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dundee 

message: I have some seniority on this page as the only user with my own special criticism section. There will probably be a fatwah on me from Respect/Yaqoob/Islamofaschist HQ before long! Anyway, down to business. Galloway is not "anti-war". He is against wars he doesn't like, eg, those of the US. He is in favour of lots of others, eg, those of the Muslims he is currently gulling into believing his pap so he can stay as an MP for a bit longer. Next year it will be something else. Is there a category for utter sleaze-balls? MarkThomas 21:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-war activist categorisation 

message: This is the single best known thing Galloway has ever said and he clearly was full of praise for mass-murderer and genocidalist Saddam Hussein. Why do user Guy Hatton and others persistently remove it from the introduction? I leave readers of WP to judge! MarkThomas 09:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps because Galloway says it never happened?  The last occasion he disputed the reporting of the quote was in a brodcast interview  on BBC Hardtalk. Galloway states over and over in the interview that he has been misquoted and that he was in fact saluting the Iraqi people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.29.229.254 (talk) 23:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Updated the article and removed the moralizing tone making sure that Galloways dispute of the speech given is clear instead of ambiguous. Another editor might also please explain why citing a wikiquote of Galloway which itself is uncited is considered good practice in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.29.229.254 (talk) 23:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sir, I salute your courage, your indefatigability 

message: Any casual editor dropping by, perhaps not knowing much of Galloway and wondering who is most POV, me or Guy Hatton, should check out Guy's talk page where he can be seen plotting openly on how to dress up socialist campaigns as NPOV, how to counter-attack attempts to thwart it, etc. Thanks Guy! (Guy hastily rushes to his page to edit out the giveaways before too many eyes see them). MarkThomas 21:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With that, I am hereby terminating all further attempts to portray the many obvious negatives about Galloway to the public. He is without doubt a shining example to the world and it can only be a matter of hours before the military coup that will one day (quite rightly) place him in office is carried out and the likes of me who dare to speak against Him are taken away and shot. I can only plead with other more enlightened Gallowayistas to step forwards and speak for England, oh fie, the very planet, speak, speak of the great love we all have both for this man and his supporters. Save me from my sinful editing! Thank you for your termination Guy, and praise be that I too can compose a little hand wringing missive! MarkThomas 10:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Guy Hatton is a valued contributer and I for one think he is a good editor. Mark Thomas, you should refrain from personal attacks and I hope others will not falsely accuse him of such bogus accusations. -- Tompsci 09:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks Tompsci, all I see though is a long history of mods to the Galloway page from Guy Hatton that always try to just ever so slightly push all the obvious drivel from Galloway into the background and just nudgingly bring to the fore any of the (very few) plus points Galloway presents to the world. However, I do accept that you, as a major contributor to articles on programming code, are well placed to discern a trot plot when you see one. :-) MarkThomas 10:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, I did not realise that I needed to accumulate a whole bunch of edits to London and Led Zeppelin to qualify myself to give my opinion. Computer Science requires people to think logically, therefore I think that places me one ahead of your ranting and toy throwing. -- Tompsci 20:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guy Hatton 

message: Seems to be one of a number of new users with no talk and no contribution history who have recently sprung up to revert commented and justified edits on this page only, always with the argument that such edits are not justified, even though they are. To my mind this is exactly the same as an IP sockpuppet. All such edits should be auto-reverted and don't need further explanation or justification, as this has already been given above. Please help by auto-reverting. Thanks. MarkThomas 17:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sandy Dancer" 

message: I cannot agree with the deletion of the quote about this by SandyDancer. As far as I can tell, this was a properly cited quote, and the citation date is April 2005, which means that it took place during the election campaign, not before it. Therefore I think that the quote shold be restored, but I will allow time for other users to comment first. Viewfinder 13:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote that you deleted is cited here: . The link is dated 11th April 2005, before the May election and during the campaign. I really think that it is accurate and cited and therefore does not breach WP:BLP, and should go back. Viewfinder 14:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Without wishing to brag, I think that my approach was a bit more successful than making personal attacks. Try it yourself next time. Viewfinder 21:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oona King incident 

message: appears to be another sockpuppet created solely to edit this page. How many more will there be!? And the guff in "his" comment line about "millions" of editors - well, it's about 5 including me. Welcome to the real world of British Wikipedialand "Matt" - whoever you really are! MarkThomas 16:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh please Mark, not another unsubstantiated personal attack. Why not make the case for your edits here instead, then wait until there has been some sensible and factual discussion? Viewfinder 17:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, what edits have you made previously to any other page? From your contributions page it appears your sole purpose in life is to positively edit the GG page. Why is this view incorrect? MarkThomas 18:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "MattLewis" 

message: I'm curious why in addition to the above-mentioned "praise of Saddam" reverts you routinely do Viewfinder, you also choose each time to remove the Oona King comments on Galloway on this page, but not on the Oona King page, where they are repeated. Is this because you know you will be overturned on that page, but you view this one as "under control"? MarkThomas 18:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet another personal attack. Viewfinder 18:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's merited. You really are completely uninterested in a proper debate about the facts Viewfinder. You repeatedly and high-handedly revert. You demand apologies for things you repeatedly do. You demand explanations and refuse to answer perfectly straightforward questions about your edits. I repeat, why did you remove the perfectly factual Oona King comments? Do you have the honesty to answer the question, or will you just carry on spouting SWP bollocks? MarkThomas 18:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Restored wholly unjustified and (against WP rules) true Viewfinder deletion of my comments on talk page. MarkThomas 19:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MarkThomas, its very difficult when you constantly try and wreck the article NOT to just "high handedly" revert your edits. --SandyDancer 19:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Your term "wrecking" is very subjective; I am trying (as now again) to give an accurate view of Galloway's actions and motives, the page at the moment lacks real analysis of why he behaves in such apparently strange ways, heaping praise on mass-murdering torturing dictators for example and then later denying it. This page, and Wikipedia, deserves better than the kneejerk auto-reverts of politicised ultra-leftist editors supporting Galloway's jew-hating and US-hating agenda. MarkThomas 23:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Accusations like "politicised ultra leftist editors" are, to say the least, unhelpful. Viewfinder 23:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverts by Viewfinder 

message: Hello everyone, I'm back! Being banned for 8 hours was a salutory lesson and I am suitably chastened and deeply humble. From now on I will take no notice whatever of the POV on this page. I will restrain myself from auto-reverting every attempt to render it factual, as happens routinely at present. I swear, the mighty and gorgeous George is the greatest war leader Britain has ever had! How lucky we all are!MarkThomas 06:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mark, we salute your courage, your indefatigability! 

message: I've added a bit about the comments he made earlier this year about the moral justification of an attack on Blair. I'm not sure how best to put it while being NPOV, but given it was widely reported, and he was pilloried for what's probably in many cases a misinterpretation, I think it should be here. J•A•K 12:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put in some sources, so it should be reasonable. For the record, I think he was perfectly justified in saying what he did, given he was directly asked his opinion on the issue. It came up a lot, and I'm looking for the HIGNFY bit where it's mentioned, in for proof it was commented on. J•A•K 12:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could we possibly change "many news analysts" to "some news analysts", or cite a more middle of the road analyst? I do not think an article by Hitchens is a good enough citation of "many". Viewfinder 13:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I do know that there were many when it first was out - I just couldn't find one to hand immediately. I remember that Mark Steele said it was appalling on Have I Got News For You, and he's pretty left-wing. J•A•K 14:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mark Thomas seems to feel the most strongly about this matter. If the appropriate citation of "many" is out there, I expect he will find it (unless other editors agree that it is OK as it is). Viewfinder 15:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  I didn't make this edit, but it is basically accurate. We could refer to condemnations from the Sun, the Guardian, The Observer, The Times and The Daily Telegraph as I recall they all had critical comment the following day; researching this will take time but we can cite it. In the meantime the Sun, Ming Cambell and Stephen Pound all condemned it here. MarkThomas 16:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments on a possible attack on Blair. 

message: In the Mariam Appeal section it says without reference that GG was faced with allegations of lavish spending, caviar consumption etc. However when I do a websearch for Galloway and caviar, the applicable references (I scanned the first 40 or 50) all seem to point back to Wikipedia and sites that copy the Wikipedia text. I think there is some weasel phrasing when any article says "allegations arose" or whatever without saying who made the allegations. Anyone care to defend this text, or shall we go ahead and amend or delete it? DanielM 14:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Caviar etc. "allegations" unidentified and unsourced

message: Hey lefties, I wonder wich one is more important, George Galloway or Galloway Scottish region. After searching with keyword "galloway" I get da scott region but not da disambiguation page. Somebody fix that please. Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia |wanna Talk? 03:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying that you think that Galloway should redirect to the 'George Galloway' rather then the region? There is a link to the disambiguation page at the top of the region page.--JK the unwise 11:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PAGE REDIRECTING??? 

message: I recently added a part on Galloway's dislike of Jon Gaunt. Would Sweetalkinguy explain how this is "un-encyclopedic" when it's quite notable and relevent to the section?
Edit: I'd like to point out my edit wasn't the vandalism to this section which was removed earlier today. Itsmeltc 16:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want a list of persons who do not like George Galloway, I suggest you include it in a new article.  Guy 17:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: talkSPORT