Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 30

message: Let's move on from this back and forth about "dictator" - let's wait until the question actually comes up as to what to put in the article. Too much heat, too little light. While i find some of the views expressed here quite barmy, or even "codswallop" (such a quaint old word!), I am going to try to refrain from responding unless they actually impinge on the article itself. Camillus (talk) 11:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Draw a line

message: Why it was removed? --Haham hanuka 09:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does the picture add to the article? Camillus (talk) 12:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i've the same question as Camillus. Wyss 13:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Pictures don't have to add more information. What's wrong with this picture. By the way why does the link to Hitler Hisorical Museum was removed? --Haham hanuka 18:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Truth be told, pictures do have to add more information in the sense that they help illustrate the text. This article is already very long and Hitler's relationship with Helga's mother, along with Helga's tragic murder, are covered in the related articles. Wyss 18:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so it helps to illustrate Hitler's relationship with Helga. --Haham hanuka 19:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...which is not discussed in the text and is so granular that it is best dealt with in the related article. This is not a full length biography, it's an encyclopedia article. Part of the skill of writing them is to be both succinct and, in summary fashion, historically complete. That involves making appropriate choices. Why do you really want this picture included? Wyss 19:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pic 

message: Please leave a few minutes between posts to allow the server to catch up. Comments are still being zapped. Camillus (talk) 12:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Server problems continue 

message: Just to lighten things up: "Geschichte ist Lüge, auf die man sich geeinigt hat. - Napoleon Bonaparte"
History is a lie that people agree upon.
Agathoclea 14:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who knows :-) maybe because the quote came from the German Wiki History page Agathoclea 19:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Napoleon Quote 

message: Generally, an article should not be protected too long.  However, a person who shall remain unnamed (see edit history) who roves from IP to IP appears to be insisting on reinitiating edit wars as soon as the article is unprotected.  Opinions on whether the article should be unprotected?  --Nlu (talk) 16:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinion requested on unprotection 

message: OK kids, maybe we need to go over this. The WP:3RR rule is not an allowance. It is a guideline. And it applies to a 24 hour period. Some of you warning others over 3RR violations are guilty yourselves. The best thing to do right now is to sit here and discuss. If the revert war continues, I will protect the article on the and force y'all to discuss before mindlessly reverting. --Golbez 22:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wyss, you have been violating WP:3RR. Resorting to desperate accusations of other users will not deflect away from the valid point made by Golbez. Stop edit waring and violating the 3RR rule. Wyss accusations of "stalking and  badgering" is ridiculous and I consider that a personal attack on me since I'm one of the "red-linked" users she no doubt is slandering. Please review the civility policy and assume good faith. MikaM 00:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhm, who's sounding desperate here? :) Wyss 00:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are. MikaM 02:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Only when Simonides list gave a lot of books which backed up his choice of words, while yours didn't give any books which backed up "Hitler is a saint" or "Hitler saved the world" :) Camillus (talk) 00:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already addressed that objection but it's really not going to influence the discussion since the whole technique is unscientific. Wyss 00:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "This isn't an argument - it's contradiction. No it isn't". Name one book from any source that says that "Hitler saved the world" or "Hitler was a saint". Name an encyclopedia or scholarly work that suggests it's unscientific to call Hitler a dictator. Camillus (talk) 10:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: That not true, Str1977. Freethinker is no socketpuppet, as you well know (or at least know the full story. I think its shameful that you felt the need to slander me while you knew I could not respond. I see the Wyss and Ann, along with yourself, have all taken to this. I will just repeat what I told Wyss. Its rather distruptive, and diversionary, and thus begs the question that this is not based on not being able to properly argue your POV on the substance and merits of the arguments, so personal attacks, on other users, dragging this sad affiar here, serves the despicable puprose. In a way, I guess, it's fitting for this to happen in article on Adolf Hitler! I hope it stops. Giovanni33 11:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm familiar and active on the Christianity article and Str1977's characterizations are extremely biased, and an attack on Giovanni who is currently blocked. It appears that Giovanni and his wife were both editing. I assume good faith that they are two people, and therefore not socketpuppets. The attacks against others who agree with him seem to me (and others) to be motivated by POV disputes. The incident Str19977 uses is deceptive in what it does not tell you: that user Giovanni used his friends account while at his friend's house to respond on his talk page while still signed in Freethinkers account. He then corrected it. Allegations of sockepuppets are greatly exageraged and being used an an abusive tactic undermine good users both old and new. Those who engage in this tactic, are IMHO, violating Wiki policies of Civility, and Assuming good faith. MikaM 00:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that MikaM begins by immediately attacking User:Str1977. I stand by my assertion that the evidence points towards MikaM being a sockpuppet of blocked User:Giovanni33. I've been trying to assume good faith for some time now but the mounting evidence makes this problematic at best. Wyss 00:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that Wyss describes my correction of events as an attack on user User:Str1977. Also, note this implies that user Giovanni would attack user Star1977. This follows a pattern of deception by user Wyss. For examples see: . MikaM 00:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, yawn :) That's a nice shade of blue you've got on your user signature all of a sudden. Did my remark about red-linked sockpuppets have anything to do with the quick redecorating work... or what? Wyss 00:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, although I like red, since you seem to think that is a problem, I easily fixed it. I'd hate for any other new users to run into you. Heaven forbid they should still have the color red! heheMikaM 01:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How strange that MikaM should copy Giovanni33's most common mannerism. hehe. AnnH (talk) 01:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How strange that you know I've used "hehe" before, that MikaM uses it and that you only minutes later jump in to give this tell tale clue! One could eqaully specuate that MikaM is your socketpuppet, Anne, who you created in an effort to make it look like I created one for myself, and thus attack me. Sorry MikaM, I think you are a genuine editor, but I a just making a point about how I can equally speculate along these lines, which is just as wrong as what AnnH is doing. Giovanni33 11:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How unstrange for you come in right on que with another snide remark in your witchhunt against Giovanni and new users who support his POV. While I never saw Giovanni make his "common mannerism" (must not be that common), I have seen others use it. In anycase, I'd appreciate it if you would stop these attacks. Your vendetta against Giovanni and those who share his POV is disgraceful.MikaM 02:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: My educated guess is that Giovanni is still here, reverting away, using at least one or two red-linked user names (see the article history). This gives the impression of a revert war when in truth it's noise caused by only a couple of disruptive users editing in a high traffic, emotion provoking article. Wyss 23:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No, that was your ignorant guess, by definition since you lacked knowelge, and infact are wrong. I do have knowlege about where I was and what I was doing, and reverting away was not one of them. You are best to your "educated" guesses to yourself in this matter. If I sound uncivil, then I apologize but reflect on how inflamatory your false accusations above are. Giovanni33 11:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You guess is not very educated. Are the arguments made by myself, Giovanni, and John K., Camillus, all only "noise?" MikaM 00:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't try to conflate helpful WP editors like John K and Camillus in this. I'm not talking about them at all. Wyss 00:26, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Be careful about making "educated guesses". Firm evidence should only be used to back up allegations of sock-puppetry. Camillus (talk) 00:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks Camillus, really, but I'm pretty sure and if I'm wrong, a sock check will sort things out. Wyss 00:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR 

message: Sorry, but I thought this was the discussion page for Adolf Hitler? Can y'all take your arguments about sockpuppetry, who knows who etc. to your personal talk pages? Thank-you! Camillus (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. Giovanni33 02:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, G, you immediately followed this post by another one on the sock-puppetting allegations. Give it a rest, eh? Camillus (talk) 02:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not making the allegations, Wyss is. I'm only defending myself from her personal attacks, and trying to focus this back on the article. Giovanni33 03:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Now that your're blocked I think we can make more progress without this kind of distruptive tangents that serve no good purpose. Giovanni33 11:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adolf Hitler?

message: Users are reverting on the basis that 'their version' has/had some consensus and/or that the 'other version' has none. I think we're all being disingenuous here, because we forget:
*No version here ever had any clear consensus, only some agreements to 'leave things alone'.
*No Wikipedia article is meant to reach a permanent, final state where changes are not welcome.
*No editor/s should take on the role of unofficial article guardian/s
I think Giovanni brought up some good points, even if I disagree with him on some things and/or his methods. I think we ought to be a little more open to valid points and changes of phrasing made in good faith, that are brought forward by others. Harassing other editors is indecent and counter-productive.
There is basically just one point of contention here - whether or not the intro is POV. As User:Lacatosias tried to suggest before, we should look at some of the examples set by other encyclopediae to judge just how critical of Hitler an article can sound before it is judged unsuitable. In my opinion, all quoted articles suggest that our current intro is far from being overly critical, and would be so even with Giovanni's edits, so if the others could briefly make their opinions on this clear, it might be useful. -- Simonides 10:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversions and consensus 

message: These are mostly comments by John K., who writes succintly and accurately, reflecting the mainstream scholarly opinion on the issues currently still in contention. I think we do have a pretty good consensus right now with just Str1977 and Wyss holding to the minority view.  I suggested a compromise wording, to accomodate their objections, and I think its reasonable to go forward with it. That is, instead of saying "fascist regime," (which is accurate and fine), I proposed "authoritarian regime that most scholars have term fascist." Totalitarianism can be mentioned later in the article but properly qualified per John K.'s comments below. The other issue we need to work out is imperialism vs. expansion, which is being worked on right now with Str1977 above. We shall see if we can get get conensus with this issue as well, soon. Giovanni33 11:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This would also be acceptable to me: "...establish an authoritarian regime (classified both as fascist and as totalitarian)." I'd like to see what others think, though. Giovanni33 14:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Restored some valuable comments about ongoing issues that were archived a little too soon