Talk:Jean de Venette

message: Please stop changing my edits with edit summaries that amount to WP:IDON'TLIKEIT.  I deferred to your objections which were valid and made a separate paragraph on the Three Marys Manuscript and you reverted with a objectionable edit summary. You also changed the English translation to the French. This is English Wikipedia and that was inappropriate as well. You then followed my contribs to Jean de Venette and made changes in a deliberate manner intended to be difficult to revert. That is vandalism. Next time I will report you. I am not a Newbie. Thank you. Mugginsx (talk) 09:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  My edits  

message: Johnbod:  The citation did not work when I or the Bot tried it.  Clearly it is now fixed.  That's fine.  I would ask you though since you feel that manuscripts should be named in English re:Naming Conventions - Manuscripts, why do you have the heading in this article in French?  It is also suppposed to be in english on English Wikipedia but I am not going to make a big deal about it.  I just wondered. Mugginsx (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It works for me (in the UK); google links are sometimes not global. The Histoire is a work, not an MS (I expect there are many of these, hence the variable exact form of the title), and is also always given in French by scholars writing in English. Johnbod (talk) 17:21, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

text: I've been watching this and trying to figure out what's going on here. Using the French name of the poem is fine, just as Froissart's Chronicles are often referred to as his Chroniques and Michel Pintoin's work is named in French. I am very confused however about the section saying that maybe he is or maybe he isn't the author of the poem. It probably needs more research. The urls should be formatted too - can get to it myself later if not done. Adding: shouldn't the images be identified as from Froissart's Chronicles? As it is, without captions, it seems to suggest they from Venette's.  Truthkeeper (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now attributed the pics to Froissart, and other pics, as the wording appears in Commons and all other articles that use them.  As to the "truth" of whether or not there was another Jean de Venette who lived in approximately the same time, was also a monastic, was also a Carmelite monastic, was also literate (all Carmelites were not literate), was also a chronicler and was also from the same country, it is probably unattainable at present.  If the historians cannot be sure, I am not certain how we can find it. Mugginsx (talk) 18:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Froissart didn't paint the pics - they're from manuscripts of his Chroniques. At least one looks like it's from Bibliothèque Nationale MS Fr. 2646. I'll fix though. Also please post the specific page numbers from the g-book here - the links go to a series of pages (using "the" as a search term picks up more pages than worth scrolling through) - I'll format w/ the correct pages.  I get that there's a question of attribution but was confused about what was written here, but it's better now. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Johnbod: Also, the Three Maries (or Marys) is also referred to as a manuscript here: Manuscripts of the story of the three Maries <> London, British Library, Egerton 3050. Old Ashburnham 602. XIV / XVth century. Paper. 223 f. Bastard. 2 columns of 41 lines. Initials. I found it at the link I sent you. Mugginsx (talk) 18:38, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course all copies before printing are MS. If that MS had an article the title would follow Naming Conventions - Manuscripts. But the section here is taking mainly about the work in general, across (no doubt) several MS & a number of printed editions. The BL library MS appears to be a different one from the one the article mentions I see. Johnbod (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I see.  Thanks for the explanation. Mugginsx (talk) 21:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link you sent - I've mentioned the various MS as listed there, though no doubt other exist. Johnbod (talk) 21:22, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you liked it. Here is a link to that site that automatically updates itself each month:  http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.pecia.fr%2F  The pictures and the manuscripts are beautiful and I think you will enjoy it each month, plus prior issues. Mugginsx (talk) 21:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: A Fillon is a writer of a long poem or prose.  It was rather his nickname then his name. Mugginsx (talk) 11:05, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not how I read the French blog ("Auteur vers 1357 d'un long poème en vers français sur l'histoire des Trois Maries (encore inédit), Jean Fillon, dit de Venette, près de Compiègne, raconte qu'il rendit plusieurs fois visite à ...", nor is it evident from Fr WP , or eg here or here. Johnbod (talk) 13:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am reading from The Chronicle of Jean de Venette, translated by Jean Birdsall, late Associate Professor of History Vassar College, Edited with an Introduction and Notes by, Richard A. Newhall, Brown Professor of European History William College. (N.Y.  Columbia University Press 1953).  In the Introduction: 1. The Author and his work and beginning in paragraph two it reads as follows:  The identification of the author rests upon internal evidence.  As early as 1735 J.B. de La Curne de Sainte-Palaye demonstrated that he was the Carmelite friar, Jean de Venette, called "Fillons," author or translator of a long poem on the three Marys, which was written about 1357.  It goes on.  I do not have a scanner or I would send the scanned page to you but if you find the source at your library, you will see it is exactly as I have stated.Mugginsx (talk) 14:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect that de Venette refers to the fact that he was from Venette and called Fillons or dit Fillons refers to a surname. Here's an additional source that's also helpful. http://books.google.com/books?id=aBHSc2hTfeUC&pg=PA935&dq . Doesn't mention the poem at all. Truthkeeper (talk) 14:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The passage and its meaning are quite clear and exactly as I have re-created here.  I am sure the book is available at most libraries.  Is the reference you gave of the movie director John Huston's book? Mugginsx (talk) 15:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have included a reference to the passage in the Book on the Chronicle of Jean de Venette I cited above - it is 1) Mémoirs de ĺ' Académie des inscriptions, XIII (1735), 520ff  Mugginsx (talk) 14:57, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, there are several clear sources saying the opposite. Not clear what the 1735 ref is. Johnbod (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The link I added in my post above goes to The Middle Ages: Dictionary of World Biography, Volume 2, edited by Frank N. Magill, p 935. If you're seeing something else, then g-books is worse than I thought! And yes the passage is clear, from Venette, called Fillons. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There are qualities to references, the number is not one of them.  It look ridiculous in my opinion, but I am not going to waste my time fighting over whether a John Houston book which is one of the references given, is a better reference then the scholars I have cited. Mugginsx (talk) 15:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's fine. I'll unwatch. I haven't time to be here anyway. But seriously if you believe that I'd link a John Huston book as a source for a medieval French chronicler, then you're talking to the wrong editor. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:31, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is your link at present (check it above) - probably an error   It links (in America at least) to the John Huston book of his favorite essays. Mugginsx (talk) 15:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. That's not at all what my link shows me - yes, checked it, no not an error. I added the bibliographic info so maybe it can be found with a search. But the urls are completely different, so whatever. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It links to book of essays on Huston, this one by Christiansen, a medieval historian as far as I can see. It has the advantage of being in English, a language you can read, unlike the many other refs you can find in Google & the one you produced yourself. Johnbod (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That is strange and interesting - maybe important for future research - Your [here] above gives the exact same url as mine and links to John Huston p. 167 Essay entitled  A Walk with Love and Death by Christensen and mentions Jean de Venette on that very page. A reference in English like the one I gave only mine were by noted, published scholars.  At this point, you seem to want to argue over everything.  A search in the library would find the truth but I am  not going to help any further. I did so in good faith. It is a waste of time.  Mugginsx (talk) 15:59, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

text: That's just very odd! Anyway, it's a good source about him and unfortunate that others can't see. Veenstra too has a bit (source can be found on Bal des Ardents). I'm on my way out for the day. Will capture notes at another time from that source that's apparently only visible in the US. I don't understand though why the one I produced has a page specific url and the other (the Huston one) has a search parameter url with "Fillons" in the search string. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:00, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have to disagree if you are saying that John Huston is a good source.  The Url you gave is the John Huston book and does mention Jean de Venette on the page you gave. It even shows your search terms.  That is too much of a coincidence.  Anyway, virtually everyone knows that people in the middle ages were known often for what they "did" and "where they came from".  If there were more than one Jean de Venette than it is entirely plausible that, at the time, one was given the name fillon because he chronicled a long poem or prose or translated one. There are examples through medieval literature too numerous to mention.  "Baker" is one of thousands and so on.  I too am through.  The conversation is becoming disingenuous and absurd.  Mugginsx (talk) 16:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's about Huston, by Christensen (again). Very many French people had modern-style surnames by the 14th century. I can see no evidence elsewhere that Fillon is some term for a writer, & frankly I think you've misread a source in French, which is a language you don't seem to speak (correct me if I'm wrong).  Johnbod (talk) 16:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it was the two scholars who interpreted the French text, not I. I quoted them verbatim. Yes, I know some French, but not middle French, do you? Mugginsx (talk) 16:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where was that? I can't see it. You can see my Middle French here. Johnbod (talk) 16:44, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You are incorrect. You seem to like to argue.  I do not find it the mark of a productive editor.  The French source in the Introduction to the Chronicle of Jean de Venette is what I was obviously referring to you, answering your previous question.  As for the middle French, it was a rhetorical question.  Also, you have it backward - The reference that you think is so good is a book by two editors quoting Huston's favorite essays, one of the essarys is by Christensen.  This conversation has gotten very disengenuous.  You have not even read The Chronicle.  The only other good reference you have is the one I gave you.  On to productive researching and editing.  Mugginsx (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation