Talk:Halifax (former city)/Archive 2

message: Halifax is a community of the Halifax Regional Municipality . Well it be better if the article be "City of Halifax" or "Community of Halifax" or even "Halifax Area" or something without brackets nor including metropolation not to confuse this area of HRM with the other areas of HRM and HRM itself that have  different historys and facts . The heading "Halifax, Nova Scotia" the present legal place for the former city of Halifax area should not have be redirecting the Halifax Regional Municipality page and made the whole article on HRM confusing to people outside Nova Scotia.--Bill 20:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no City of Halifax.  There is HRM, and then there is the place formerly known as Halifax.  They are two separate places.   It has been 10 years since amalgamation and culturally, economically, and administrationally, urban Halifax/Dartmouth/Bedford/County is one unit now.  Renaming this will just run us back into the confusion as per the debates on both the HRM and Halifax Former City talk archives.  As we have said in the past "it is confusing on wikipedia because it is confusing in real life." WayeMason 00:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article needs a name modification

message: Okay.
I am tired of god damn real estate agents defining what the neighbourhoods on Halifax are.  I am tired of them trying to say the south end extends to Quinpool to justify higher housing prices.
Historically, there was Halifax Town, with a West, North and South ends.  Technically, the West End included Quinpool road, thus the WEST END CHURCH on Quinpool at Chestnut.
Anyway, I am looking for input.  Below is a suggested neighbourhood map, trying to use the historic names....   Me personally, it sounds hard ass and cool to live in Fort Massey, which would have been the old south end.  I don't know if anyone still calls it Fort Massey.  I am totally against the north end being everything north of downtown, that is historically not accurate at all.  The North End stopped at Richmond, which was just south of the current Hydrostones down to about Veith Street, where Idea of East used to be....  "Richmond Place' was the building.  Also the old naval graving yard (the drydock) was considered to be in Richmond.  
Lets talk about where the real neighbourhoods are, lets talk about what the people who live there call them and failing that, what they could/should call them, and lets make a more accurate map.
[]   WayeMason 23:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Halifax Neighbourhoods Input Needed

message: Er, this article is about Halifax, the former city.  It is NOT about HRM.  I have to agree that its inappropriate given the structure we have LABORIOUSLY and over a long period of time worked out to put HRM stats on this page.  We might as well put the 359K population on the Bedford and Dartmouth pages, too... which is just illogical.  WayeMason 01:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: No mention of the explosion? --AW 18:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History seems short 

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
# Support, as explained in the move-proposal. See also the earlier discussions of this matter.  -- Lonewolf BC 07:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: # Support, as explained in the move-proposal. See also the earlier discussions of this matter.  -- Lonewolf BC 07:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in support of the move

message: The protection has expired. Rather than reprotect it I have removed the header that was being warred over and replaced it with the . I did it because it appeared to be a more neutral template. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The plain "otheruses" is fine by me. -- Lonewolf BC 23:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: In an effort to keep our little tiff from exploding again, here is my proposed new introduction to the article.  We may not agree on much, but surely we can agree the current introduction is just badly writen...
:Halifax was founded by the British goverment under the direction of the Board of Trade and Plantations under the command of Governor Edward Cornwallis in 1749  
:After a protracted struggle between residents and the Executive Council, the city was incorporated in 1841.  Halifax was also the shire town of Halifax County.  On 1 April, 1996, the government of Nova Scotia amalgamated the four municipalities within Halifax County, among them the City of Halifax, and formed Halifax Regional Municipality, a  single-tier regional government covering that whole area.  The City of Halifax ceased to be a legal entity, but the city of Halifax is still recognised as unincorporated "Metropolitan Area" by the provincial government.   Residents of Halifax are called Haligonians.
Will you be okay with this? WayeMason 00:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Off-hand, I don't see any see any grave problems with that as a replacement for the second paragraph that is there now -- so long as the very opening sentence ("Halifax is...") stays. -- Lonewolf BC 01:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So as soon as the protection comes off you have to add the word city again?  Nice.  Very nice. Thats some high quality good faith discussion. How can you say Halifax is the biggest city in Atlantic Canada when the only actual authoritative source, Statscan, refers to it as the former city?  Are you going to delete HRM from lists cities and insert a geographic area with no formal boundaries, no recognized legal existence, instead? WayeMason 01:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please quit flinging accusastions.  I did no such thing -- any more than I did the other things of which you've accused me.It is not legal status, nor legal city limits, nor Statscan's words or divisions that make a city a city. -- Lonewolf BC 04:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been following this with some interest but staying out of it thus far.  My question for Lonewolf BC:   If the gov't of BC dissolved every incorporated municipality in greater Vancouver and placed them under a new municipality called Fraser Valley Regional Municipality, and 12 years later after the entire FVRM grew to encompass a completely integrated municipal unit, would you refer to FVRM as a city, or Vancouver as a city, or both?I'll be the first to admit that the HRM concept is very confusing for non-residents and residents alike, but it is what the elected representatives provincially and municipally chose to do (to placate those opposed to amalgamation).  Governments have made a very conscious effort to make the entire regional municpality work as a single unit, which can be seen in development strategies, statistical gathering, etc.  I know it defies the popular logic about "cities" but it is a concept that the residents of HRM have chosen to live with.  If everyone is to be amalgamated, no single "former" municipality stands to rise above the rest.Plasma east 14:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please answer your own question or, better yet, just make your point straightforwardly.You touch upon political considerations, and consequent actions of governments, which tend to make mine. -- Lonewolf BC 17:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  Well my answer tends to follow the standard line that many people in HRM follow - it's a region.  "Halifax" was founded in 1749, incorporated in 1841 and dissolved in 1996.  I admit that it is confusing, wherein the former "City of Halifax" uses the same name "Halifax" that is found in "Halifax County" and the new "Halifax Regional Municipality".  It would have been much easier if the provincial gov't had chosen an entirely new name for the regional municipality, such as "Chebucto".  But you shouldn't discount the fact that HRM is a single-tier municipality - this is the essence of the debate you and WayeMason are having.  What you are suggesting be adopted here appears to be an ambiguous definition of a city, vs. the legal incorporation as defined under the laws of the Province of Nova Scotia.  Residents of the new "region" were adamant that if amalgamation were to be successful, all former municipalities must disappear completely.  There is no reason why "Halifax" as a city should exist in Wikipedia, when it does not in legal actuality among the residents of this region - anymore than Dartmouth would, or Bedford, or the former Municipality of the County of Halifax.  I don't really think Wikipedia should be the place for a philosophical discussion about whether a city "exists" or not - we should go by the existing definition of the jurisdiction it is incporated under.  Let bureaucrats and politicians debate it and we should accept whatever status they accord to the entity. Plasma east 18:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Of course there is a city here.  The city is all all of urban HRM.  Of course there is a western region, a Halifax community, a Halifax Metropolitan area.  All these things are true.  The most telling statement you have made, Lonewolf BC, is this There is little purpose in consulting a dictionary over such a commonly understood word as "city", and even less in noting that Halifax does not meet any of its more particular definitions. It meets the common definition, and that is both obvious and enough.  This is totally unacceptable.  Your argument revolves around the fact that there is a common and obvious definition, and that even if abundant sources, from the HRM site, the Province's Geonova site, the federal Geomatics site, every dictionary site, wikipedias own page on cities, all disagree with you, then they are wrong, because it is obvious and common, so obvious no one bothered to actually make a reference?  As a side note, I am going to edit the line that say that it is the capital of Nova Scotia.  The act that created HRM clearly states that HRM succeeds City of Halifax in terms of all provincial legislation and that the word Halifax in older legislation refers to HRM as of 1996.  Unfortunately that act is not on line, but if you look at the Elections Act, which is on line, the word Halifax is removed and Halifax Regional Municipality is inserted.  These two acts clearly mean that the Capital of Nova Scotia is HRM. WayeMason 19:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "common and obvious definition" of "city" is the one that most any English-speaker knows, the one that appears first in dictionaries, and the one I am applying in calling Halifax a city.  When I wrote, "There is little purpose...", I meant that consulting a dictionary over so well known a word tells us nought that we did not already know, and so is rather pointless.  I did not mean, and do not in any way suggest, that some personal understanding of the word should override the dictionary's definition.  But, contrary to your suggestion, I am not contradicting or seeking to ignore the dictionary. -- Lonewolf BC 21:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-write of introduction 

message: As if The Canadian Encyclopedia were not enough, Britannica likewise says of Halifax, "city, capital of Nova Scotia, Canada,...".  Britannica Concise says the same, and also notes the 1996 amalgamation while giving different 2001 populations for the city (119,292) and the municipality (359,183), thus making plain that city and municipality are not identical.  Surely that trumps the "original research" interpretations to the contrary that a few WP editors wish to make from primary sources and personal observations.  So can we please make an end of these issues?  Halifax is a city, the capital of Nova Scotia, and not the same thing as Halifax Regional Municipality.-- Lonewolf BC 21:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Primary sources are considered more authoritative than secondary sources... HRM Government here: provincial legislation here  WayeMason 10:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This Britannia article refers to population info from 1991 - doesn't this suggest that it's dated? And no mention is made of HRM, which too suggests this hasn t been updated.  These points do not refute outright the validity of this source, but call it into question Mayumashu 16:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Primay sources are not necessarily more authoritative than secondary ones, and in any case you are making an interpretation of primary sources, which is "original research", and as such is forbidden on Wikipedia. -- Lonewolf BC 23:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not obviously not original research to point to legislation and say "here is where it says this thing," or a press release that says "HRM is the capital of Nova Scotia".  WayeMason 23:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is original research to take a act that does not directly deal with what is or is not the capital of Nova Scotia, and a quotation from the mayor in an HRM press release, wherein he says "...Halifax Regional Municipality faces unique challenges as the capital of Nova Scotia and the largest municipality in Atlantic Canada...", and conclude from them that Halifax is not the capital of Nova Scotia. -- Lonewolf BC 02:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: but this at least says that someone of authority (the mayor of HRM) considers HRM the capital, something you have not been willing to admit thus far.  compromising language that allows for both non-official views is in order, something like,  'The capital of Nova Scotia is city of Halifax, taken by some to refer to what constituted the City of Halifax until April 1, 1996, and by others (including its mayor [source]) to be the whole of Halifax Regional Municipality.'  Mayumashu 16:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britannica says: 

message: I protected the page again due to the ongoing back and forth. The structure of the first sentence is a bit odd "...is the capital the province of...". Also why have the population figures for Halifax not been updated to the 2006 Census? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 22:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point 1- error, I guess we have been so busy whipping the page back and forth no one had time for actual editing 2 - If you look at it, the census  these are teh 2006 stats for the HRM.  Statscan only maintains former city stats for historical reasons, but because it is no longer a primary municipality, they don't give it a community profile.    They maintain it here as  as Halifax Nova Scotia (City / Dissolved)WayeMason 22:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The second of the two links is for the 2001 Census. There should then be a link to Halifax Nova Scotia (City/Dissolved) for the 2006 Census. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 22:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The have not done the data yet, its not published, you see, because its not a community.  It is a historical data set.  Yes I am editorialising, but thats why it is not there.  Look here  and type in Halifax and you will see its not there yet.WayeMason 22:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The oddity with the opening sentence is just an oversight.  It was meant to be "...is the capital of the province of Nova Scotia...", I believe, but I think just "...is the capital of Nova Scotia..." would be better. -- Lonewolf BC 02:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection again

message: :Category:Former cities in Canada.  Perfectly designed of the headache that is Halifax.  Cheers.  Kevlar67 02:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS why not just call this Old Halifax to match Old Toronto?  Kevlar67 15:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Because at this time no one actually  calls it that.  WayeMason 01:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, why not?  What do they call it? Kevlar67 04:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New category, perfect for this page