Talk:Jesus/2nd Paragraph Debate/8

message: :The main sources used by scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history for information on Jesus' life and teachings are the four canonical Gospels of the New Testament. Most scholars in these fields have agreed that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, and was sentenced to death by crucifixion on the orders of Pontius Pilate.Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave (New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. A. Carson, et al., p. 50-56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, p. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, HarperCollins, 1991, p. xi-xiii; Michael Grant, p. 34-35, 78, 166, 200; Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred A. Knopf, 1999, p. 6-7, 105-110, 232-234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199, 278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12-13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew (Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100-102, 222; Ben Witherington III, pp. 12-20. As the Gospels were not written down immediately after his death and there is little external documentation, a small minority of scholars question the historical existence of Jesus.Bruno Bauer; Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy. The Jesus Mysteries: Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God? London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1999, pp. 133, 158; Michael Martin; John Mackinnon Robertson; G.A. Wells. The Jesus Legend, Chicago: Open Court, 1996, p xii. 
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Alrighty, here goes another shot at the goal. --MonkeeSage ☺ 08:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Change "have agreed" to "speculate" and you have my vote :-) Drogo Underburrow 08:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we agreeing to speculate? Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 08:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Its not as accurate, but since most of these scholars are professors, I guess we could use "profess" :-) Drogo Underburrow 09:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Drogo: Would say really argue for changing Plato#By_tetralogy "if scholars generally agree that Plato" to "if scholars generally speculate that Plato" or "if scholars generally conjecture that Plato"? What about all the rest of the articles that use the standard formula (280k Google hits) "scholars agree"? "Speculate" and "conjecture" have the negative connotation that one is just making something up, guessing or drawing a conclusion without any supporting reasons and the like. --MonkeeSage ☺ 09:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Come on, don't play the exaggerate game. Speculate means what the dictionary says. No one said anything about using "conjecture"; I said "profess", though "speculate" is exactly correct. Drogo Underburrow 10:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I could go with agree, assert, contend. I think "state" amd "conclude" are the best. None of these writers would say they are speculating, however. They save that for when they are going on a limb. On the very few items that are in the paragraph, they do not wiggle at all. We need have a firm word to be fair to them. --CTSWyneken 10:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks like I am in the minority here, so I am going to shut up and wait for reinforcements. Drogo Underburrow 11:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Just to note my agreement with others that we shouldn't use "speculate" or "conjecture."  I would add that I considerably prefer my latest version (which nobody has yet commented on) to Monkeesage's, for two reasons.  1) The Gospels are the main source on Jesus for everyone, not just for scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history.  2) I think the sentence that historians disagree on the extent to which the Gospels can be trusted is really important - for me, at least, it's kind of a sine qua non, because it acknowledges scholarly disagreement, rather than implying agreement on what is apparently a minimalist position. john k 15:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why can't we leave it as is, minus the sedition thing. There are more citations for me to do here and in other paragraphs. It would be kind of nice if I could get to paragraph four. --CTSWyneken 01:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with the current version, I was just trying to capitulate to the "unwashed masses." ;) I think Mr. Deepdelver is exactly right that the "problems" are semantic. BTW, a funny thought here is that the the earlier Wittgenstein would tell us that when we "can't we say what we mean", we should just shut up (TLP, 7), lol. --MonkeeSage 10:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The omnipotent solution to omnicontroversial para