Talk:Kalavryta massacre

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Kalavryta massacre.jpg

message: Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 

message: I corrected the excessive numbers of dead civilians, according to recent estimates in the Hermann Frank Meyer's excellent book Von Wien nach Kalavryta: Die blutige Spur der 117. Jäger-Division durch Serbien und Griechenland. Unfortunately, I only had the Greek translation available, so I thouht it would be of no use to cite pages in this article. Anyone interested in precise numbers (assuming he can read Greek) may take a look at the article on Greek Wikipedia.--Dipa1965 (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Casualties

message: This article (Massacre of Kalavryta) shares the same photo (but different image file) as the article for Distomo massacre.  This is clearly an error as these events happened in different places and on different dates.  Image origin must be mistaken for one of these photos.  --X2ca (talk) 09:05, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate Photo 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I was told emphatically by multiple employees at the Museum of the Kalavryta Holocaust that the story of the Austrian officer is false. Unfortunately I cannot find a written source debunking it, though there are many sources that omit it or treat it as a mere rumor. The historical record shows that the doors were locked and the building was set on fire. What the historical record does not show is that soldiers were under orders to guard the doors, or that any soldiers acted under their own initiative to unlock the doors.
I have added citation needed and dubious tags. The story is dubious because there should be some German record of the disciplinary action, and because there is no evidence that the 117th Jäger Division made an attempt to resist the escape. Surely it cannot be that difficult for armed soldiers to keep unarmed women and children trapped in a building, and at minimum some of them would have been shot escaping, yet there are no accounts of this. 
I have no objection to removing the claim entirely, but since the rumor is fairly widespread it would be even better if someone could find a source (perhaps a Greek source) explaining exactly why modern historians believe it is false.
I do not believe the tags are redundant, as Template:Dubious#Incorrect uses says the template is not to be used "to flag unsourced statements, unless you think they are incorrect". In this case I do think the unsourced statement is incorrect, for reasons explained above.
Manybytes (talk) 20:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Austrian officer myth 

message: When I visited Kalavrita in 1979, I met an elderly Greek gentleman in the church, a warden looking after the church, who was a survivor of the massacre. His eyewitness account of that fateful day in 1943, related orally to myself and my party, included the story of the Austrian soldier who left one of the school doors unlocked so that the women and children could escape.
Personally, I have always taken his account at face value and have never doubted its veracity. I think the reasoning of Manybytes - that since there is no surviving historical account of disciplinary action arising from this incident, it is unlikely to be true - is itself suspect. I think it is perfectly feasible that a door was surreptitiously left unlocked by a soldier who nonetheless subsequently evaded suspicion and disciplinary action.
Manybytes claims that modern historians believe the story is false, and asks other contributors to find a source to back him up. Manybytes, I think it is up to you to provide a source to support your claim, as otherwise it looks as though you are making unsourced claims that smack of OR.
Of course, my account of what a survivor of the massacre told me 43 years ago is not a sufficiently reliable source for Wikipedia, in the same way that Manybytes's account of what he was told at the museum is, in itself, not a sufficiently reliable source. However, there are plenty of sources that describe the massacre and mention accounts of the Austrian soldier. The following are amongst the first Google search results:
1. According to https://www.greeka.com/peloponnese/kalavryta/sightseeing/kalavryta-holocaust/, "It is said that an Austrian soldier ... helped them to get out".
2. https://greekherald.com.au/culture/the-kalavryta-holocaust-darkest-moment-in-modern-greek-history/ states "it is believed that an Austrian soldier freed them, while the some [sic] other Nazi soldiers also allowed them to be freed".
3. https://greekreporter.com/2021/12/13/kalavryta-the-bloodiest-nazi-massacre-in-greece/ states "There is a rumor that an Austrian soldier who had been entrusted with their custody left one door open so they could flee".
4. According to  https://variety.com/2021/film/global/echoes-of-the-past-kalavryta-1943-massacre-1235103647/ there was an exhibit at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC that cited 14 eyewitnesses who relayed the story of the Austrian soldier.
I am aware that currently some of the descendants of survivors are adamant that there was no Austrian soldier, as evidenced by their reaction to the film "Echoes of the Past". Their view does not correspond to the account given to me directly by one of the survivors.
I think the account of the Austrian soldier needs to be mentioned in the article. At the very least it is an integral part of the story of the Kalavrita Massacre, even if it is now difficult to establish it as historical fact. Consequently, I have added: "According to some accounts, an Austrian solder left a door of the school unlocked, thereby allowing the women and children to escape". StefanosPavlos (talk) 18:57, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: ...but is it a myth?

message: Contributor 2804:D4B:9A42:9300:784C:FECE:2552:DBF1 has added the word "accidentally" to the sentence "According to some accounts, an Austrian solder left a door of the school unlocked, thereby allowing the women and children to escape". S/he makes no attempt to source this word, and none of the sources I found that mention the Austrian soldier say that the soldier's action was accidental. There is clear indication in the sources that the action was intentional. Consequently I have removed the word "accidentally".StefanosPavlos (talk) 19:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Accidentally?