Talk:Opposition to pornography

message: https://againstpornography.org is cited several times in this article. However, as an anonymously-written self-published website, with no visible external editorial or peer-review process, it does not qualify as a WP:RS in the narrow sense defined by Wikipedia's policies. However, it does cite a number of published sources to back up its statements, most of which appear on the face of it to be valid reliable sources that meet the WP:RS criteria. 
The same appears to be true of http://www.american-buddha.com/anti-porno.htm , which also appears to be self-published, but similarly, also appears to cite reliable sources to back up its assertions.
Could someone please go through each of those sources, check that they support the statements made, and replace the citations to these sites with the appropriate reference to the original sources they are citing to support the specific statements made? -- The Anome (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: I've now removed the cites to both of these, and replaced them with  tags. These should now be replaced with cites to reliable sources. -- The Anome (talk) 20:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  againstpornography.org, american-buddha.com, [[WP:RS]], and need for direct citation to original sources 

message: Almost every citation in this article seems to be a cite-a-random-website cite, yet at the end of the article we have a whole list of published books in the "further reading" section, seemingly just as an unstructured dump of books that touch on the subject. Instead of just listing these books, would it be too much to actually cite them to support assertions in the article? -- The Anome (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are some citations I plan on using when discussing conservatism, anti-feminism, and anti-pornography
Schreiber, Ronnee. Righting Feminism: Conservative Women and American Politics. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2008. Print.
Marshall, Susan E. "Who Speaks for American Women? The Future of Antifeminism." The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science 515 (1991): 50-62. Web.
Shields, Jon A. "Between Passion and Deliberation: The Christian Right and Democratic Ideals." Political Science Quarterly 122.1 (2007): 89-113. Web.
Duncan, Lauren E. "Tactics and Identity Politics: Understanding Socially Conservative and Economically Conservative Women's Political Organizations." Sex Roles 60.11-12 (2009): 912-4. ProQuest. 11 Oct. 2016 .
User:Nora Shepard, 11 October 2016
--Nkshepard (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Really poor citations throughout 

message: I've now removed what were merely poor-quality partial content forks of the pornography by region and religious views on pornography articles. Now there is very little of what was previously in this article left, can we please now write a proper article on this topic, perhaps starting from the reliable sources cited above? -- The Anome (talk) 21:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content fork sections removed 

message: Here are some thoughts about article structure:
It seems to me that there is no single anti-pornography faction or movement, although different factions often support the same goals, and ally with one another to meet shared goals.
The different strands are:
* Feminist opposition to pornography, in that it demeans and/or harms women in particular
* Conservative opposition to pornography, in that it offends traditional social values
* Religious opposition to pornography, in that it offends traditional religious values
* Harm-reduction based opposition to pornography, on the basis that it causes objective, measurable social harm (of which the feminist harm arguments above form a subset)
On the other hand, their opposition consists of:
* Liberal and libertarian support, on the basis that the ability to produce or consume pornography is a form of freedom
* Feminist support, on the basis that the ability to produce or consume pornography is one aspect of general freedom for women
* Harm-reduction approaches, on the basis that it, overall, causes more good than harm, for example by the overall reduction of sexual assaults
Religious support for pornography seems to be notable for its absence. (Q: Is it? What about some of the sex-magic aspects in some religions, eg some of the ancient tantric traditions, whose ancient sex-related artworks might be considered pornographic by Western eyes? Are any of these traditions still extant, and if so, are any pro-erotica?) 
Oh, and we should also treat the fact that the definition of "pornography" varies from place to place: what, for example, the Saudi Arabian government might consider to be pornography, would be considered completely inoffensive and non-erotic by even many of the most dedicated Western anti-porn campaigners, who would find many of the Saudi restrictions quite ridiculous. And there are even narrower distinctions to be drawn: is there a difference between porn and erotica, or are they just the same thing?  What about lingerie advertisments on posters?  From a radical lesbian separatist feminist position, are conventional bodice-ripper heterosexual romance novels pornography, but lesbian SM stories erotica? and so on...
Note that a single person may hold more than one of these positions, and even different positions, pro and con, for different kinds of pornography, simultaneously.
We could then categorize and itemize these different strands, and for each, the arguments, the specific definitions of pornography vs. erotica vs. art (if any) made by that group, the theorists, the political players.
-- The Anome (talk) 21:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Goodness, pornographic actors and actresses are caught up in their health hazards as well, apart from those watching them: 2 male porn performers test positive for HIV. Rongxiang Lin 07:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  A possible approach to the subject 

message: I've now started to refactor this on these general lines, and, given the insight that there is no one single "anti-pornography moment" but lots of individual anti-porn movements with different definitions and motivations, moved the article to opposition to pornography: the Taliban and Catharine MacKinnon might both agree that pornography is bad, but they absolutely can't be regarded as part of a single "movement". -- The Anome (talk) 22:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refactoring started 

message: Perhaps someone can upload the linked image in the article as fair use for this article. Even if it does not last long, I think it would be a good iconic for this topic.
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/playboy-stormtrooper-the-art-of-borat-co-creator-jason-alper_b119096 --Zeidanam (talk) 00:50, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artwork 

message: I have restored my edits to the article. I do not see substantial justification for their removal. -Zeidanam (talk) 07:06, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: When you edit, you need to cite reliable sources. See WP:OR and WP:RS.  2A02:2F0A:509F:FFFF:0:0:50C:31FE (talk) 06:11, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction edits 

message: I'm very erudite regarding sexology, libertarianism and human Anatomy. I'm very knowledgeable about human sexuality and politics and I would be willing to help ameliorate this article. Whatever it is that you want me to do to improve this article, please let me know so that I can augment the quality of this page. Thanks. Nashhinton (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 23:48, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: I saw your headliner

message: "...when society masturbates to rape scenes..."? Seriously? How does "society masturbate" anyway? This seems to imply that "society" is some kind of big monolithic bloc or object that is capable of masturbating. A percentage of people IN society masturbate to pornography. A smaller percentage of them watch rape pornography, yet the person who wrote that goes ahead and blames everyone, as "society" is general. Apparently we're ALL guilty in their mind, male and female, regardless. I disagree. AnnaGoFast (talk) 20:00, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Society 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: About —no, I was not assuming that. I simply stated that no evidence=no knowledge. So, it has no known effects. And, yes, the authors of the review have an opinion, but there is no particular reason to trust their opinion, since they admit it is not based upon empirical evidence. And they don't even say if that's good or bad. Simply because young adults get different norms and values, it cannot be automatically equated with "harmful". Just because pornography disproportionately favors one side of the culture wars doesn't mean it's harmful. This boils down to: the claim that watching pornography is bad for teenagers is a political rather than scientific claim. Zillmann's  are politically undesirable effects, not medically undesirable effects. About the edit, see https://revisesociology.com/2016/05/29/sociology-value-freedom/ So, these are not medically or sociologically undesirable effects, but politically undesirable, as seen by the GOP. There are lots of progressives who disagree that these effects are morally or politically undesirable. So, yeah, Zillmann conflated the judgment of empirical science with his own political activism. He was entirely free to support conservative politics, but that should never be conflated with science. It's none of the business of sociology to tell you if such effects are desirable or undesirable. Those who propagate such crude moralism are not writing sociology. Nor psychiatry. Any undergraduate student from the sociology and psychology faculties which I have attended could tell you for a fact that sociologists and psychologists are not getting paid to write such moralistic craps.
Even if you wholeheartedly support family values, you will agree that in a free country other grownups are entitled to disagree with your choice.
This jeremiad is entirely fitting for the language of 19th century sociology:  Such language is obsolete by the standards of the 1960's.
And the various studies which did empirically investigate the matter (e.g. Miranda Horvath and Marleen Katayama-Klaassen) put their readers on a steady diet of low correlation and causality cannot be shown. tgeorgescu (talk)  14:26, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misreading? 

message: What's that supposed to mean? That they have no trust in human reason?
But coming back to the issue, no, mainstream science does not claim that pornography would be a cause of rape. Regardless of whether pornography plays a role in male domination, most mainstream scientists would bet that by banning pornography, rape will go up. tgeorgescu (talk)  03:07, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "disbelief in reason"