Template talk:Ukrainian historical regions

message: I removed the template from all pages where it was added. With the edit war, like now, it is counterproductive to have innocent articles be affected by it. We will discuss readdition once there is an agreement on at least the basic things. --Irpen 07:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Krys, thanks for your valuable feedback. I know I could rely on your friendly attitude. I suggest you consider the harm of adding the rabidly warred template to the whole bunch of articles. I view this template as a flame-bate. I take part in the discussion but until this is settled, there is no need to pollute innocent articles, some of them very good, with a template that takes so much heat and changes sometimes, several times within minutes. Once it is settled, I am all for adding it back to articles, especially those, whose etnographic connection with the Ukrainians is undisputed. --Irpen 03:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the next time the template is vandalized, please take the appropriate actions. But, your removal of the template at this point is groundless, my friend.  --KPbIC 03:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You may remove it from Halych-Volhynia per your explanation, but for the regions you have no questions about, there is no point in removing the template. --KPbIC 03:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I "may". However, I am tired of edit warring with you. If you want Ukrainian articles damaged by having them affected by the template that is now being under the hot discussion, have it your way. I have better things to do than edit warring with you and feeding you further. --Irpen 03:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One of such better things to do would be to prevent a vandal from vandalizing this template. --KPbIC 04:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal from all pages

message: Speaking of compromise, how about separating the template on two parts:
*Historical regions of Ukraine
*Ukrainian language regions abroad
The latter may include Kuban, etc,, Lemkovschina and even Manitoba?
::AFAIK, People in Manitoba do not reject their origins, and do not mind to acknowledge the positive elements that the Ukrainian culture introduced into their multicultural society. If it's supported by census data that at some point a significant number of settlers in Manitoba has been using Ukrainian as their language, then Manitoba should be listed as well. --KPbIC 00:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would also ask if there is Sloboda Ukraine, why have Kursk as a separate region. The problem is that some of the regions simply overlap (as they are from different historical periods). Maybe if one takes care to reorganise the template starting from Kievan Rus principialities then going to the Polish defenitions, then Cossack ones and then Imperial Russian guberniyas etc. and then adding a bit at the end about ethnocultural regions abroad - Lemkos, Preshov and then Cossack regions, of only lingustic influence and nothing more. --Kuban Cossack  16:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that many regions will overlap, by I think that that is often the case with Ethnocultural regions, as they are not official boundaries.--tufkaa 21:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise

message: *Kuban--tufkaa 15:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed regions:

message: *A Ukrainian Historical Ethnocultural Region is a territory which is or had been inhabited at some previous point by a considerable Ukrainian population. These territories are referred to in Ukrainian writings (songs, stories, historical documents) by a Ukrainian name, and may or may not correspond with current or past national subdivisons, and may cross current or past borders.--tufkaa 15:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of Historical Region

message: Because of the edit war on the template that affects many articles, I have protected it. Please use Template:Ukrainian historical regions/development for the development. Let me know when you are ready for the unprotection or have a good suggestion for the editprotect. abakharev 04:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you copy the development after my edit? --Kuban Cossack  10:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if a majority of the editors working on this template (DDima, Irpen, KPbIC, Tufkaa) agree with you. abakharev 11:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well at least put a note that elements of the template are disputed. --Kuban Cossack  16:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: I recently saw this dispute, and while I'm a bit confused by the specifics, a possible way to come to some sort of reasonable compromise about what regions to include in the template, it may be best to make a list of each region and go one by one, speaking about each individually to determine whether it should be included in the list or not. Going step by step may let us reach a compromise. For example, we could try a format like this:
Region name
Why to include it
*Reason
Why it shouldn't be included
*Reason
Next region... etc.
How does that sound? Cowman109Talk 21:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible solution to the dispute 

message: It seems to me that this template is inflammatory on purpose. It duplicates the category and as such should be eliminated as soon as possible. Many entries (Marmaroshchyna, marked as part of today's Ukraine, Black Sea Ukraine, etc) smack of nationalistic original research. The guy who added them is obviously not interested in building up an encyclopaedia; he should be either banned from further trolling or submitted to the ArbCom's consideration. --Ghirla -трёп- 10:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides, as the template is protected from editing, we have time to sort out the following queries. Why does not he include Canadshchyna into the list? Why don't we start Template:Russian historical regions with Polsha and Alaska included? And was not the latest bout of Ukrainian nationalism triggered by Yanuk's new office? --Ghirla -трёп- 10:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And don't forget Finland and Baltic states :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 10:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, that goes without saying :) What about Israel? Is it a historical region of Russia or Ukraine? --Ghirla -трёп- 10:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well you people just exactly pointed out why it is not possible to simultaneously have Canada and Volhynia. Because Canada was settled by migrants, whilst Volhynia was an ethnically original region. In such a case Kuban is on par with Canada, Siberia, Alaska and of course Moscow's Tverskaya Street, which is why I can accept Sloboda Ukraine, which does cover Kursk and Starodub thereby not needing for separate distinguishes, however having modern Russian territories with their contemprory names is rediculous and yes it is a pure violation of WP:POINT. --Kuban Cossack  14:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why don't we delete this provocation? 

message: Ukraine includes a part of the region in the Zakarpattia Oblast. I am not sanctioning the current template in this form or any particular one: I am providing information that may help establish a standard on this topic. I for one agree that inclusion into historical regions should be done only on the basis of current territorial ownership (ie: only those regions nowadays present in X are historical regions of X), and I wonder whether the info qualifies Maramureş as one for Ukraine. I could go either way, but please discuss on the basis of this. Thank you. Dahn 11:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And please read what I have posted before replying. Although I see major problems with viewing as "historical" regions those outside the present-day territory of country X (the implications are grotesque, IMO), I was answering mainly to the Romanian pov, by stating that a part of Maramoroshchyina is in Ukraine - hence, the issue may not apply to it at all (this is because Ghirlandajo has asked for a Romanian oppinon on the Ro notice board). I understand that you did not aim for land-grabbing, but I see no point to "Ethnocultural regions" (destined to be defined by subjectivity) and I see little sense in obscuring the difference between Ukraine and the Ukrainians (people are not regions... regions are part of states... etc.). I have to wonder about the informative value and NPOV quality of something as vaguely defined as this is. Please note that this is not because I would feel threatened by it as a Romanian (otherwise, I would not have provided the NPOV info about Maramoroshchyina), but because I cannot see its logic as a contributor. Dahn 15:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maramoroshchyna

message: .. by Kuban kazak is, I think disagreeable as it confuses the state and administrative units with the historical regions. UkrSSR is the state, not a historic region. So were, eg,  Halych-Volhynia or Kijow Voidodship. Please fix this asap. --Irpen 18:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is it you mean? Most admin divisions follow geographical and historical regions? --Kuban Cossack  11:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I did not answer... I do not know how to make this template work well, but how about if we keep the current restyled one and rename it to something of the following: Ukrainian historical administrative and ethnocultural regions (or is it too bulky), so as to not give any confusion with state and historical regions. Or how about dividing the template so at the top it says Regions of Ukraine and the first section: Ukrainian ethnocultural regions and the next one Ukrainian historical states and administrative regions or smthing of the sort. What do you think? —dima/s-ko/ 15:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: What do you guys think of this restyling by me? I tried to separate the historical and administrative regions, feel free to change. —dima/s-ko/ 01:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Otherwise, if we do not want to separate historical and administrative regions, then the template is fine. Basicaly, either way works for me... —dima/s-ko/ 04:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MAJOR restyling

message: What about Донщина? --Riwnodennyk 21:58, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just expand the Donbass article, its the same topic. In fact Donschina is misleading as it refferes to the Don Cossack land immediately east of the Donbass, which is a Russian, not a Ukrainian, historical region. --Kuban Cossack 08:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donshchyna?