Talk:Red hair/Archive 3

message: Whilst the comments made by 63.65.68.246 were valid I believe the talk page is a better place to express them than within the body of the article. See below
"The results of a 2001 study, by University of Edinburgh and University of Oxford teams of geneticists led by Harding and Rees caused some to speculate that the gene responsible for red hair may have originated among the Neanderthals some 100,000 years ago.[2] THE REFERENCE GIVEN MAKES NO MENTION OF NEANDERTHALS OR EDINBURGH OR OXFORD UNIVERSITY - THIS SECTION IS A JOKE Red-haired people would then be descendents of Neanderthal admixtures to Cro-Magnon, and would have spread from the area of Neanderthal-Cro-Magnon contact. But interbreeding of Neanderthals with Homo sapiens is still a matter of debate (NO IT ISN'T, IT HAS BEEN RULED OUT), and in 2003, Edinburgh geneticist J. Rees suggested that the gene originated as recently as 40,000 to 20,000 years ago in Europe, well after the human migration from Africa, so that the geographical distribution of red hair would be due to post-glacial expansions from Europe."
References for any of the above statements would also be helpful .Agnellous 13:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't immediately recall references on the origin of the red-hair gene, but I do recall an issue of Science a few months ago discussing the ancestry of the human species, and concluding that there was liking interbreeding between the various sub-species of humanoid present in the past. I remember this because it is the only time I've ever heard the phrase "inter-species carnality". Michaelbusch 16:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RV of edit by 63.65.68.246 on 19/10/06 

message: Contrary to popular belief, Scotland is the nation with the most redheads. Most redheads, in the British Isles, USA, Canada, Australia and so on are of Scottish descent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.199.52.99 (talk) 22:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: North Germany has a large population of redheads too. user:FLJuJitsu 27 Sept 07 00:05  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 04:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scots

message: Why is this in the article?  "The most beautiful of all red head's is by far, Cindy Sousa."  149.167.210.127 05:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about because it was vandalism? I see this quite a bit on other articles.  http://www.ncdes.ca/index.php/Profiles/CindySousa That's all I could find and she doesn't even have red hair. Faris b 16:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cindy Sousa? 

message: Considering that DNA evidence has now determined that Neanderthals could not have interbred with us, an unscientific source claiming the genes for red hair come from them should not be included in this article. Even if it was possible, that article is not a reliable source. I know it's asking a lot, but please think next time before blindly reverting. 70.50.52.152 01:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not call edits you disagree with "vandalism". If you delete content with no explanation, you can expect that deletion to be reverted. That's not vandalism. If you have a problem with article content, discuss it - or at least explain yourself - before removing it. - Eron Talk 23:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: If you refer to the Neanderthal genomic work reported in Nature on Nov 16, 2006, be aware that this does not rule out gene transfer between Neanderthals and modern humans. The paper merely demonstrates that the populations of Neanderthal and human diverged on average 500000 years ago. This is not the same as saying that they could not have inter-bred. In fact, inter-breeding is a common suspicion based on the same studies, because of strange mutations that show up in a few humans and many Neanderthals. This was reported in Nature earlier in 2006, and was the first time the phrase 'inter-species carnality' ever appeared in the journal. Michaelbusch 23:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red hair and Neanderthals 

message: Has there been any peer-reviewed academic research on whether the temperamental attributes associated by folklore with red hair, such as aggression and libidinousness, actually have any basis in reality? Given the genetic origin of red hair, and its known correlation with variations in the perception of pain, this would seem like a reasonable direction for research, but I cannot find anything in Medline that suggests this area is being investigated.
Any statistically significant result would be interesting, whether it tended to confirm the folklore about redheads, or to refute it by confirming the null hypothesis that hair colour has no influence on personality, or even demonstrated a correlation in the reverse direction to that suggested by folklore.
It really wouldn't be very hard to do, and could be piggybacked onto just about any other study of impulsivity, aggression, etc., or even data-mined out of other, older, studies if pictures of the participants were available. 
The California Twin Study seems to have combined data-gathering on physical attributes including hair color with personality tests: that might be a candidate for data mining. -- The Anome 16:34-17:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would anyone believe that if you have red hair you will have a bad temper? Does that mean if you have black hair your calm in personality? The problem is that if you question old wife’s tales, the old wife questions your temperament and you’re then perceived as angry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.128.97 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research on red hair and temperament? 

message: im a 44 male with longred hair, same hair as ive had all my life, with no signs of aging 
and yet before being online, ive never really new that being a redhead was something sience wouold find so interesting to study......what is the point in all this research about redhairs..do i know any redheads outside the family, no i dont ...i have no neighbors either, no coworkers taht share the redhead sysdrome......and the hate part of being redhead.if i travel to the UK....do 8I need to be careful in what i say or do so i am not attacked for being redheaded.....or should i travel to parts of the world where it doesnot matter, like scotland......whats next, the judging of a person based on there skin color...no wait, we already do that dont we...whats next, the hatred of people who are human? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.7.20 (talk) 20:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  being a red headed man....gingerman 

message: The section on Biochemistry, genetics and evolution is a bit confusing to me. What, or where, is the distinction between genetics and biochem? It seems the MCR1 is genetics, but it's called biochemistry. This section needs a bit more organization, but I'm afraid I just don't know enough about genetics, etc. to dare try it. I'd appreciate someone's help. Thanks! --Zuejay 00:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biochemistry vs genetics 

message: We need to seriously think about making this page a protected page. The daily insults about redheads, and today even a stupid picture. The picture is visible in the page history as I've reverted it.
Is there a possibility for page protection? Faris b 15:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at the present time. User:Arjun concludes that the vandalism rate is low enough to be managable. Michaelbusch 19:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Seriously? Ok then. I just thought I should bring it up. What would be an unacceptable level of vandalism?  Faris b 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Vandalism more often than once every six hours or so seems to be the normal threshold. Michaelbusch 05:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much vandalism! 

message: Ehlers-Danlos type V has only been documented in one family and is not included in current lists of the types. Thus, it's irrelevant and not necessarily related to EDS.Ninquerinquar 03:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it! If it only occured in one family, the red hair may have been totally coincidental and not related to the syndrome. Fionah 10:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ehlers-Danlos 

message: About the British slang, the London hip-hop artist Louise Harmon aka Lady Sovereign frequently uses the term "ginger" in her songs, but I don't know how this relates to redheaded people, i.e. the context doesn't seem to refer to hair type. Arkhamite 21:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lady Sovereign 

message: Since there is a user insisting that the picture Image:Gingerkid.jpg is more appropriate to the article than Image:RedheadedGuy.jpg, perhaps we should discuss it. The RedheadedGuy image is solely of an individual with red hair. The other image, Gingerkid, shows an individual with red hair and a beer can. I feel RedheadedGuy is more encyclopedic. Please, express your opinion before we continue the RV war. Perhaps we can gain concensus. Thanks ZueJay (talk) 03:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the RedheadedGuy(picture 1) is more encyclopedic, as it is just a picture of a boy with red hair, while the Gingerkid (picture2) picture has other distractions, such as the beer can and the other person's arm. Pnkrockr 03:35-03:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  [interjection] red haired guys have nearly auburn (female have higher pheomelanin/eumelanin ratio than males) Nagara373 08:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  User:Illbill1000 has edited Image:Gingerkid.jpg to Image:head187.jpg and installed it on the page. The image subject appears to have "red eye" thus the original Image:ReadheadedGuy.jpg still seems better. The new image is:20px ZueJay (talk) 03:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Apart from that, the beercan dude pic is only a quarter the resolution and has some really bad anti-aliasing going on - Alison☺ 05:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The first image is not perfect, but better than the second/new one. -- nae'blis 18:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all just vandalism. Leave the "redheadedguy" pic as it is.  Vala M 18:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Image speedy deleted as unlicensed and used in attacks. Editor in question repeatedly reverted to their version and inserted "[blah blah] is gay". Blocked 24 hours - Alison ☺ 02:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red haired man image 

message: This page seems only to mention cases where all of a persons hair is red, but for me it is different. I have light blond hair on my head, but my beard is red, and the chesthair is brown, so where does that put me? Additionally, I have pale skin, very sensitive to the sun, and a tendency to freckles if sunburnt. Am I then some kind of semi-redhead? Both my parents were blond, but my mothers father was a full redhead.(62.20.115.40 00:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the article says, the redhair gene is recessive. That means that you have to have two redhair genes, one from your mother and one from your father, before you will have flaming red hair. However even people with one redhair gene may show signs of redness. If they inherit a redhair gene and a blackhair gene, the redness may not be easy to see since they will still have some melanin in their hair and skin and will therefore tan without freckles. However if they inherit a redhair and a blondhair gene, the redness may well be easy to spot due to the lack of melanin, leading to pale skin, freckles, etc. That appears to be what has happened in your case. You are what is commonly known as a "strawberry blond" in common parlance. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure genetics work that way. A person who is heterogenous with a combination of a recessive/dominant trait will not necessarily express any evidence of their genotype in their phenotype. For example, a person with the alleles for both the blue and brown eyed trait will exhibit only brown eyes. I could be wrong, though, because I seem to recall Mendel's experiments involving roses in which a white and red rose crossbred resulted in a pink flower? (Could have been the wrinkled/smooth peas, too... not sure). The Great Attractor 01:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I not into the technical terms but i'm quite sure that there is situation where the dominant gene has some kind of defect which allows the recessive one to have some dictation of the prevailing phenotype, such as green eyes coming from sets of blue and brown eyes. 82.22.131.140 10:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Partially red hair? 

message: Upon finding this page, I was happy to see that Iranians were identified as a group commonly diplaying the trait. Most people automatically attribute red hair to Celtic inheritance. A good friend of mine, who is half Iranian, looks like she just got off the boat from Dublin, despite the fact that she has no European heritage. Amusingly, I'm 100% Irish heritage, but she possesses far more of the traits normally attributed to the island that I. Perhaps it might be a good idea to include the fact that Iranians (or Persians, depending on one's preference) can be Aryan despite the connotation of the stereotypical Nordic phenotype associated with the word? Iran is not an Arabic nation, despite Western perception. The Great Attractor 02:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's funny that you have to mention this. First of all, it's your own short-sightedness, then indeed, the short-sightedness of a lot of people. Of course Iranians can have red hair. Chechens, Tatars, Kazakhs, Mongolians, Turks and Arabs are known for having a high percentage of red haired people among them. Why are people always so shocked to find this out? For me it was very funny to read your thing (you, The Great Attractor). It's so obvious for me that there are many red haired people from the Middle East, Persia, North India, Central Asia and the Altaic Region.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.35.179 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  First, I never said that ONLY Iranians have red hair. My assertion was that people most commonly associate the trait with northern European ethnicities, not Middle Eastern ones. Second, if you have an issue with something I said on a discussion page, leave it at that and refrain from editing my user page with snide, condescending comments without having the cojones to sign your edit. The Great Attractor 01:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iranian Redheads 

message: According to a Clairol Color Attitudes Survey, redheaded women see themselves as fearless and savvy.  Ummm...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.0.37 (talk • contribs) 11:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  not encyclopaedic? 

message: You should add something about ginger people. 8D  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Superkittydance (talk • contribs) 21:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm yes I see you are smarter than most people on this sight [sic] XD --Meridius 07:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Ya... Ginger is generaly taken as a very derogatory word. If nothing else I think something about it being viewd as derogatroy needs to be added user:FLJuJitsu 27 Sept 07 00:09 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 04:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ginger People 

message: The external links list a site "All about Redheads". On this site is information that is incorrect. It states that redheads do not make good soldiers and that in fact only one noted general in US history had red hair--General Custer. This is plainly false. Some of the most noted and revered Generals in US history had red hair, namely George Washington, George Tecumseh Sherman and Dwight D. Eisenhower. There is no link to contact the administrator of this website and I suggest it be removed until it's errors are corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halhiker (talk • contribs) 09:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, I think the only general you mentioned who wasn't ginger was Custer, who was, I believe, blond! That site may not be terribly accurate o_o; RobbieG 21:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  All about Redheads link: False information 

message: People attitude toward redheads, positive or negative, different due to gender of redheads. People positive attitude toward female redheads, but negative attitudes towards male redheads.
attitudes towards redheads (gender difference):
Positive attitudes towards redheads - Redheaded women are beautiful.
Negative attitudes towards redheads - Redheaded men are bad.
Nagara373 09:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's more complicated than that. For example, I have a friend who is a girl and she is sort of ginger-ish, and she sometimes gets laughed at for it. And there have been recorded cases of redheaded women getting mocked or even harassed because of their hair colour. It is true that males generally tend to recieve more negative reactions than females, though. RobbieG 16:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  attitudes towards redheads (gender difference) 

message: Why does no one discuss Red heads being so evil? Very little scientific evidence proves that they are not evil and so I think that this lack of evidence should be cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.250.65.158 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evil 

message: I ask because they do not look like the majority or whites and they do look very different. The spots on their skins is unique as well. It is almost as if you 'connected the dots' on their skin, it would turn to a brown tone instead of pink. It is almost as if their skin used to be brown and has left and the spots are the proof of what once was.--71.235.88.8 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are Reds White or Related to Africans? 

message: The article states that the words for Adam and red in Hebrew are pronounced identically, but in fact the first is pronounced "adam" and the second "adom". 76.220.200.130 04:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew 

message: My parents use to tell me that in Brazil, especially in their region, there would be many African descendants with light skin and red hair. I just came back a few weeks ago after spending only a month in Espirito Santo with my parents again, and as it turns out, my cousin is marrying a redhead! He has Native, Italian and African ancestry. I found this interesting, but this article doesn't seem to discuss this phenomena. Here's a Brazilian redhead and there's also this, and this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.193.225 (talk) 05:10-05:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negro Also? 

message: Ashkenazi Jews have a high degree of red-heads and especially men with red-beards. Last time I wrote this it was deleted I wonder why?
The ethnic groups with high percentages of red hair are Scots, Irish, Udmurts (Finnic People from the Ural Mountains) and Chechens. Anyone have statistics? Numbers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.46.57.90 (talk) 14:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic Groups With Red Hair 

message: It appears the painting's webpage at Museo Thyssen-Bornemisza indicates that the identification of the subject of this painting is not certain.  Specifically note the use of "Retrato de una Infanta (¿Catalina de Aragón?)" as the title and the comment within the text "De todos modos la identificación no es segura."   --Dfred (talk) 17:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subject of Juan de Flandes painting is not certain 

message: This section is totally out of control and is basically useless as a source of information. Can we try to cut it down to a few, at least? About 90% of them are not exactly notable for having red hair (they're notable and have red hair. Big difference!). It's also a magnet for people adding their family and friends, etc. - Alison ❤ 04:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest the list be independent of the article (such as List of notable redheads) with only those notable for their red hair listed in this main article, then a link provided to the whole list as a 'see also'. I agree its totally out of control here - seeing that section added was like watching an impending train wreck. ZueJay (talk) 00:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, the problem is that, as CDA noted, wikipedia aims to be 'encyclopedic', and there has been a lot of thought given to what this means. Here's the style guideline on lists of people: WP:Lists_(stand-alone_lists)#Lists_of_people. Your MLK example is not really fair, since I think most people would associate his work in civil rights with his experience as an African-American, and would be happy to put him on a list of notable African Americans. Actually,  MLK is an instructive example of how lists can work well: he is listed on the List of civil rights leaders, which itself is listed on the 'list of lists' page List of African Americans . For an example of how lists can get out of hand see List of Canadians, especially the acrimonious talk page discussion about who should be on the list and what it should represent. In any case, if you decide to try to maintain the list, I'm pretty certain it should go on its own page. Good luck! (Oh, also, if you are going to be doing much editing, you will probably find it really helpful to create an account, so that you can keep track of your edit history, get feedback from others, etc.) Cheakamus (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, that's how all interesting articles and lists get deleted from Wikipedia. The Battle For Wikipedia's Soul. I just watched the South Park episode "Ginger Kids", in which the only 'ginger' Cartman can come up with is Ron Howard. I was wondering if Wikipedia had a list with more people and... YES, you did it again, the list has been deleted. Someone put a lot of effort into creating one and you deleted it. Way to go. --82.171.70.54 (talk) 13:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of notable redheads (real and fictional) 

message: "This has been done. (see page history) And it was deleted because Wikipedia "is not a laundry list." I liked it so I copied it to my user page . You can update it there if you like. If someone tries to get a new one started on the main site I don't think it will last.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by CDA (talk • contribs) 12:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Different list(s)

message: Physical anthropologists distinguish "clear" red 
hair from red-brown hair, although the casual observer 
may not. 
In "The Physical Anthropology of Ireland" by Earnest A. 
Hooton (1955) which involved about 10,000 subjects he 
found the following:
: Clear red.....4.2% (true red)
: Red-brown.....5.3%  (reddish)
  
(I have always wondered why the Irish are stereotypically
regarded as largely red haired or light-haired when the 
actual percentages are 9.5% for red and reddish and 10.4% 
for the combined lights.)
156.63.68.221 13:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Red Heads 

message: Johann Nestroy's play Der Talisman is all about prejudice against red-heads.. Churchh 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Johann Nestroy]] 

message: I've removed the following section from the article for the moment, as I have concerns about its notability.  Any comments?  In the event of there being consensus for restoring it, some re-writing is also indicated. Michaelbusch 20:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not remove that material to 'force a discussion on the relevancy of this topic'.  I removed it because it does not, in my opinion, satisfy Wikipedia:Notability and then opened the thread here after deciding that there might be objection.  I realize that this is not quite in accordance with the strict letter of policy.  I mentioned WP:COI in my notice to you so that you would be aware of it.  Your conflict-of-interest with regards to this section makes your assertion of its notability insufficient grounds for inclusion.  Please do not restore the material yourself - there must be consensus for putting it back. Michaelbusch 08:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Bartart, don't try to wikilawyer.  I've been here long enough to know policy, and I know full well that I skirted rather close to the edge with removing the content - but that was before I recognized your conflict-of-interest.  In the case of blatant COI, large blocks of text may be removed (see also WP:ADVERT).  You have added material to the article which I deem un-notable.  Therefore, I removed it.  You contest this, fair enough.  But given you conflict of interest on this matter - which is, I believe, being the organizer of these gatherings?   - your assertion of notability is not sufficient.  Let someone else add it back in.  I operate under that same restriction. Michaelbusch 17:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this notable? 

message: Michael has been repeatingly deleting the part on redheads gatherings in order to force a discussion on the relevancy of this topic. I wonder if this is the correct way of doing things. Discussing first, taking actions based on the outcome of the discussion next, would be a more appropriate way in my opinion.
motivation for inclusion in the wikipedia page on red hair.
1. wikipedia should only contain facts, not opinions. i think this is true, the text contains some bare fact, which can be checked. Further, there are two explanations offered, which are founded, but may be improved. Finally, actual developments are described. there are no opinions, or advertisements, or any commercial interests involved.
2. wikipedia facts should be relevant to the subject. i think this applies. in this wiki, it is for example mentioned that redheads bruise more easily. this is a popular believe, and that why it is mentioned, and explained. 
Gatherings of people that have red hair is also a topic that is often in the news (in Europe more than in the US I think). In the future, it may be more in the news than it is today. I think it is appropriate if Wiki treats this subject, just like bruising.
Also, these red heads gatherings are unique and typical for this hair colour. I do not know of any gathering of blondes, or brunettes, or black hair. I think the social bond that redhaired people have is unique, causing redheads gatherings, and this should be mentioned in the redhead wiki.
Finally, Michael deleted this part mentioned the Wikipedia's conflict-of-interest policy. There, it can be read: "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest. Using material you yourself have written or published is allowed within reason, but only if it is notable and conforms to the content policies."
I think this applies to my contribution to the red hair wiki. I made the concerned photo myself, and do know a lot about redheads and redhead gatherings as an organiser. To prevent possible discussion on conflict of interests, I made the text on redheads gatherings as neutral and informative as possible. However, improvements are welcome. 
Deleting te entire text without prior discussion on the red hair discussion page, is not.
kind regards,
Bartart 08:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not remove that material to 'force a discussion on the relevancy of this topic'.  I removed it because it does not, in my opinion, satisfy Wikipedia:Notability and then opened the thread here after deciding that there might be objection.  I realize that this is not quite in accordance with the strict letter of policy.  I mentioned WP:COI in my notice to you so that you would be aware of it.  Your conflict-of-interest with regards to this section makes your assertion of its notability insufficient grounds for inclusion.  Please do not restore the material yourself - there must be consensus for putting it back. Michaelbusch 08:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Bartart, don't try to wikilawyer.  I've been here long enough to know policy, and I know full well that I skirted rather close to the edge with removing the content - but that was before I recognized your conflict-of-interest.  In the case of blatant COI, large blocks of text may be removed (see also WP:ADVERT).  You have added material to the article which I deem un-notable.  Therefore, I removed it.  You contest this, fair enough.  But given you conflict of interest on this matter - which is, I believe, being the organizer of these gatherings?   - your assertion of notability is not sufficient.  Let someone else add it back in.  I operate under that same restriction. Michaelbusch 17:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: concerning the topic redheads gatherings

message: I've looked at the material, and at Michaelbusch's editing, and I find that Michaelbusch has acted appropriately. It is appropriate to question a sudden input of unsourced material, especially when that material appears to be Spam. And a good method of doing that is to cut and paste the material onto the talk page and ask for comments. It is not advised to put back the questionable material without some discussion and a consensus being reached. This is the procedure that has been developed on Wikipedia; this is the procedure that has been found to work best; and this is the procedure that Michaelbusch has followed. Added to which, the material does appear to be a conflict of interest in that Bartart appears to be the person organising the gathering. And finally, the material could be considered to be trivial. I'm not convinced that the material adds anything significant to the topic of Red hair, and could be seen to detract from an article that is developing quite soundly. There are one or two other sections of the article that are verging on trivial and the article could benefit from a close examination and a possible clean up. I would not advise replacing the material that Michaelbusch has removed. Any question, please ask. SilkTork *SilkyTalk 01:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Third Opinion

message: SilkTork, thank you for your third opinion. I do not share your opinion on triviallity or classification as spam, but I understand that my background strongly suggests COI, and I respect the opinion of the majority.
Bartart 01:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reaction

message: Is the first paragraph in the Religious and Mythological traditions true?
If someone with some more knowledge than me in this subject could check this over it would be much appreciated.
--Bremerenator (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Hair and Islam 

message: I'd like to spark discussion over the fact redheaded men are discussed, well, almost never in the article.  Practically all we have on the page is the pic of that guy with a goofy grin.  
In the positive attitudes, there is not a single word about men.
We do have one sentence I spotted in the prejudice/discrimination portion about Prince Harry.
This is the double standard I routinely see.  Despite our extremely low numbers, there have been a number of redheaded political and military figures who have shaped our world.   Eisenhower and Churchill, to name two. 
Prince Harry is third in line to the British crown, a military officer, world famous, young, attractive.  But what do we know about him?  "He was bullied at school."  
This is why I created the notable redheaded men list--to show that we do, in fact, exist among various colors and amongst redheaded women and shockingly, we can do great things despite being called "Carrot Top" when we were five.
Also, the modern fiction section is weak.  Writers use redheaded characters all the time, albeit usually for weirdos and promiscuous characters.  If I hadn't already written an entirely too long post about the "notables" list, I'd be willing to do more work on improving it right now.  
There's "The Da Vinci Code," where red hair is a sign of the royal bloodline.
Lord of the Flies and Nausea are two other books the spring to mind with redheaded characters.  
Does anyone have any comments about my statements or ideas on how to incorporate the male sex into our "red hair" page or on improving the modern fiction list?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.142.5.59 (talk) 00:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "We need to monitor it to ensure Allison doesn't return" - lol :) Let me assure you that Alison hasn't gone anywhere. Indeed, she spends her time reverting vandalism here. In seriousness, the problem with your recent edits is that you're adding meaningless lists of names to articles; that's just listcruft (see WP:LISTCRUFT for more info). If there's isn't enough "maleness" in the article, or if you think it's biased, it's better to address that directly by providing cited sources, etc to make your point. Adding lists of red-headed guys just turns into bloat as ever red-haired guy on the planet ends up there - Alison ❤ 02:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: This article as been through this before.  Lists of people (of whatever gender) who just happen to have red hair is list cruft.  They all have red hair... and... so what?  In the vast majority of cases their hair colour is completely irrelevant to who they are and why they are notable.  And the problem with allowing these lists to exist is they invariably continue to grow, gathering name after totally pointless name, until you have paragraphs of names that absolutely no-one is going to plough through, and that mean absolutely nothing. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: If you have relevant and cited examples of the cultural representation of red-headed males, then by all means please add them in the appropriate places.  And when I say relevant, I mean that there's a point to mentioning them, other than "some famous people have red hair".  Was their notability reliant on their hair colour?  Is their portrayal a particular example of attitudes to red-heads?  A random list of men who just happen to have red hair adds nothing to the value of the article, or indeed Wikipedia. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 00:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the men? 

message: I did a bit of tidying in the Culture section. We can't just list people (real or fictional) just because they have red hair! I've listed these deleted sections below in case anyone wants to discuss them.
===From:Beliefs about temperament===
:The writer of the Declaration of Independence and 3rd President, Thomas Jefferson, famous American patriot and orator Patrick Henry, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill were all red-headed.  
===From:Positive attitudes toward redheads===
:In comics, cartoons and science fiction, female characters with red hair (and often green eyes) are frequently portrayed as strong and "fiery" personalities. Examples are: Asuka Langley Sohryu (from Neon Genesis Evangelion), Mara Jade (from the Star Wars Expanded Universe), Lady Jessica (of Frank Herbert's Dune universe), Barbara Gordon (the DC Comics Universe heroine), Mary-Jane Watson (wife of Spider-Man), Jean Grey (founding X-Man), Poison Ivy (Batman villain), Shayera Hol (Justice League animated series), Red Sonja (of Marvel Comics' Conan and Kull canons), Lois Griffin (Family Guy), Ariel (The Little Mermaid), and Kimberly Ann Possible (Kim Possible).
:Many Goths with bright hair color to red and there are some notable Gothic metal singers with red hair, such as Simone Simons, Floor Jansen and Anneke van Giersbergen. 
:American writer Mark Twain, a redhead himself wrote: "While the rest of the species is descended from apes, redheads are descended from cats".http://thinkexist.com/quotation/while_the_rest_of_the_species_is_descended_from/346515.html Thinkexist.com  Bruce Springsteen praised his wife, Patti Scialfa, in the bawdy song "Red-Headed Woman", The Zutons missed the "ginger hair" of an ex-girlfriend in their song "Valerie", while Jack White of the White Stripes has mentioned red hair in such songs as "Fell in Love with a Girl", "Icky Thump (song)", "300 MPH Torrential Outpour Blues" and "Take, Take, Take".
===From: Prejudice/Discrimination towards redheads===
:Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, mentions many redheads, including twin-witch/vampires Maharet and Mekare in Queen of the Damned, Maharet's fledgling Thorne in Blood and Gold, her other fledgling and once-mortal blood descendant, Jesse Reeves (also introduced in Queen of the Damned), Mona Mayfair in Blackwood Farm and Armand, described as an auburn red in Interview with the Vampire. In Dracula, the vampire-hunter Abraham Van Helsing is ironically depicted as having red hair and blue eyes.
: Prince Harry was bullied at school because of his red hair.Carrot Tops: Being red not so easy ABCNews
===From:Modern fiction===
:Several children's book characters are depicted with red hair, including Pippi Longstocking, Anne of Green Gables, and Little Orphan Annie. 
:Many of Robert A. Heinlein's characters were redheads, inspired by his red-headed wife Virginia.The Passing of Ginny Heinlein - The Heinlein Society
:In Doctor Who (2005), David Tennant's Tenth Doctor is disappointed not to be ginger. As he says, he's rude and not ginger and he wanted to be ginger because he's never been in his past regenerations.
:Another powerful red hair-related fiction novel is the international bestseller Perfume (originally published in German as Das Parfum) by Patrick Süskind. The main character, Jean-Baptiste Grenouille, a man with an incredible sense of scent, is engaged in creating the most powerful perfume of them all. The heart of it, the fragrance of Laura Richis, a beautiful red hair young virgin.
:In the film The Last King of Scotland, Forest Whitaker as Idi Amin maintains that while attractive to their own kind (Northern Europeans), Africans find red hair revolting.
I wonder if it is worth adding to this article that the recessive nature of the red-head gene was one of the jokes in a series of sketches on the tv show, Laugh-In. These sketchwere about Fred and Fanny Farkle, & their best friend Ferd, who had red hair...as did all of the Farkle children. -- llywrch (talk) 21:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture section tidy-up 

message: :Several children's book characters are depicted with red hair, including Pippi Longstocking, Anne of Green Gables, and Little Orphan Annie. 
:Many of Robert A. Heinlein's characters were redheads, inspired by his red-headed wife Virginia.The Passing of Ginny Heinlein - The Heinlein Society
:In Doctor Who (2005), David Tennant's Tenth Doctor is disappointed not to be ginger. As he says, he's rude and not ginger and he wanted to be ginger because he's never been in his past regenerations.
:Another powerful red hair-related fiction novel is the international bestseller Perfume (originally published in German as Das Parfum) by Patrick Süskind. The main character, Jean-Baptiste Grenouille, a man with an incredible sense of scent, is engaged in creating the most powerful perfume of them all. The heart of it, the fragrance of Laura Richis, a beautiful red hair young virgin.
:In the film The Last King of Scotland, Forest Whitaker as Idi Amin maintains that while attractive to their own kind (Northern Europeans), Africans find red hair revolting.
I wonder if it is worth adding to this article that the recessive nature of the red-head gene was one of the jokes in a series of sketches on the tv show, Laugh-In. These sketchwere about Fred and Fanny Farkle, & their best friend Ferd, who had red hair...as did all of the Farkle children. -- llywrch (talk) 21:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: From:Modern fiction

message: There ought to be a list of famous people with red hair Brett (talk) 03:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing notable about having red hair and being famous, unless you are famous because you have red hair.  Very few people match this criteria.  This article used to have a list of "famous redheads", but it just got out of hand and a random mess, as these kind of lists usually do.  So we don't need it back. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

text: How about individuals like Carrottop? Without red hair, he would not be famous, ergo he is famous because of his read hair. Brett (talk) 21:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Gingers 

message: In the first line, there's a quote "There is little or no evidence to support the belief that redheads are more likely than non-redheads to hemorrhage or suffer other bleeding complications" then in the same paragraph, an explanation for that hypothesis is presented without linking the two: "One study found that redheads are more sensitive to thermal pain (a natural vitamin K deficiency is to blame for this)". 
If natural red heads have a natural vitamin K deficiencyhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15731586?dopt=Abstract, then hemorrhaging and/or other bleeding complications would be a valid concern since vitamin K is necessary for proper blood coagulation http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/. 
As for the higher rates of bruising, could it be due to the fact that red heads have paler skin and any aberration would be more visible? Tamar 16:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medical implications of the red hair gene 

message: I removed the following paragraph:
There is some indication that the uncommon pheomelanin/eumelanin ratios found in redheads may be correlated with some corresponding variations in the abundance of other hormones and neuropeptides, including epinephrine (adrenaline), dopamine, and oxytocin . Wolves which are bred to be tame have been found to acquire a progressively paler coat of fur as they become tamer and tamer through successive generations. The speculation is that the cell biology which produces epinephrine (adrenaline) and estrogens needed for the high-energy fight-or-flight response is linked to the cell biology that governs the relative production of pheomelanin and eumelanin.
Googling "red hair epinephrine dopamine" and other combinations didn't bring up anything relevant other than a speculative blog.Fionah (talk) 17:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hormones 

message: There is some jackass, who is constantly trying to bring his propaganda against redheaded people into this article. His edit (inserting a picture): []
The picture has obviously been chosen in order to ridicule redheads. The picture: [] </br>
And the user who is doing this has an account only for this purpose. His edits: []
Can we block the user Ridley276 somehow? I don't know how to do it, so somebody else please do so. And tell me how to demand such a block of one user for one specific wiki-page.Gerriet42 (talk) 05:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  picture of the redheaded male 

message: I've reverted recent addition by Trigaranus. The issue raised (dispute over population movement and settlement of British Isles) appear to be very much a contested matter within the relevant WP article. (Settlement of Great Britain and Ireland).  The cited book appears to be a minority view and introducing the issue here is not helpful and probably constitutes undue weight within an article that really has little to do with it.  If and when it is resolved elsewhere we can consider the matter here. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Settlement of British Isles 

message: This is just personal research, but it's just crazy to think about. OK, here are all the villains from books, movies, videogames, whatever, that have red hair... Ganondorf (Zelda), Doctor Ivo Robotnik (Sonic), Bowser (Mario), Uriah Heep (David Copperfield), Dr. Octopus (Spiderman), that's just to name a few.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.30.198 (talk) 18:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Villains in fiction often have Red Hair. 

message: In reference to the origins section in the post on red hair, Rees (2004) says nothing about sexual attraction what-so-ever. The study does talk about African populations having low genetic diversity at MC1R and suggest that it is under functional constraint in that population whereas there is increased diversity in European populations and two possible reasons are given. One is that there is selection for functionally significant variants in non-African populations and the other is merely due to what might be expected under neutral theory.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miskm (talk • contribs) 21:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  origins 

message: It is known that Britain and most of northern Europe was covered with a primeval, broadleaved forest for hundreds of thousands of years. Is it possible that red hair was a mutation that had an evolutionary advantage for humans hunting and foraging in the low level light conditions of these vast forests? The lower levels of melanin in the skin has an advantage that enough concentration of Vitamin D,(which helps synthesize calcium)gets produced in the low light conditions. A hint of our hunter gatherer, forest dwelling past?
(RED) - 15/06/2008  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.134.130 (talk) 15:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Entertaining idea, but unsupported by any evidence.  Besides, you're talking about the skin, not hair. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

text: The article covers this if you read it.--Escape Orbit (Talk) 09:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Interesting theory.  Do you know of any cites that discuss this? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 09:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red hair Evolution? 

message: What about the relationship between red hair and a person's teeth?  I can't be the only one who's noticed that people with red hair more often than not have larger and more visible front teeth.  I don't think they are normally have overbites though.  Anyway, this feature is also part of what makes redheads attractive to many people. 193.91.181.142 (talk) 15:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teeth 

message: It's hard for me to believe that that 1-2% of the world population is red-haired. 68 million people ? 
It was also poorly referenced. 'National Geographic September 2007' ???? How about giving us a  page number. I'm not going to look through every single page of that magazine to confirm this . strawberry blonde does not count as red-haired.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.230.15 (talk) 01:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  overestimate