Talk:The KLF/Archive 3

message: I like the new section. It might also be a suitable place to mention the brains behind the KLF (snigger), Wanda Dee? --kingboyk 13:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: --kingboyk 02:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow, I look forward to seeing what you do with that page! The writing still holds up I reckon for the ones I finished. D'you know, I stopped paying easyweb for ISP services and associated web space when I left the UK in 1998, but they have left that site online since then, I think it gives them page rank or something. I really should move that page to the library of mu. cheers and thanks for all the work you have done on the wikipedia entries, they are all great (even when you have removed unencyclopedic stuff I added! ;-) Drstuey 08:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personnel 

message: I think maybe we should cover graffiti in the Themes section? There's lots of sources in the Library mentioning their use of it. This one is especially great. --kingboyk 17:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, good idea.  I think in that case "adverts" will need a mention as a theme too. --Vinoir 04:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Graffiti now done. --Vinoir 16:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent first draft. When will the final version be ready? :P hehe. Nah, seriously, sterling work as usual mate. --kingboyk 16:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha. :-) And now for Wanda... --Vinoir 16:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grafitti 

message: At Kingboyk's request, I just did a pass for usages that might not be as familiar to non house fans or non anglic speakers. As I feared, I didn't see any but can't be sure that means none are there. I DID notice on thing... I think I'd list Tammy Wynette on the personnel list at the bottom as a regular person rather than guest, but I dunno. ++Lar: t/c 19:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slang/Usage review 

message: Legacy section is looking good now, yeah? :) I'd like to get some more "Opinions of contemporaries" in there if possible, so if you find any or know of any stick 'em in there please. --kingboyk 16:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: Cauty and Drummond were writers, producers and performers of the original music they recorded. However, as The KLF they often called upon the services of recurring contributors to provide vocals, instrumentation and production support. The KLF often referred to such contributors as "additional communicators" and, on some "Stadium House" singles, as "The Children of the Revolution". In alphabetical order, the contributors included:
*Isaac Bello - Also known as Bello B, the member of Outlaw Posse rapped on "What Time Is Love?" and "America: What Time Is Love?", and is credited with co-authorship of these tracks.
*Black Steel - A prominent lead vocal contributor to The White Room (including scat singing), where he also played bass guitar and piano. Before and since his work with The KLF, Black Steel has worked with Mad Professor.
*Cressida Cauty - Vocalist with The KLF's spin-off project Disco 2000, Jimmy Cauty's wife also contributed backing vocals to several of The KLF's singles and appeared in several of their videos.
*Nick Coler - Credited for programming and keyboard contributions across The KLF's output, including the orchestral arrangement of Jerusalem in "It's Grim Up North". Since The KLF's retirement, Coler has worked with Saint Etienne.Nick Coler discography, Discogs.com. Retrieved 26 April 2006.
*Ricardo Da Force - Also known as Ricardo Lyte and MC Lyte, Da Force provided raps during The KLF's "Stadium House" phase. He is credited with co-authorship of tracks on which he rapped: "3 a.m. Eternal", "Last Train to Trancentral" and "Justified and Ancient (Stand by The JAMs)". Da Force later appeared on N-Trance's cover of "Stayin' Alive".
*Wanda Dee - Vocal samples on The KLF singles "What Time Is Love?" and "Last Train to Trancentral", taken from her track "To the Bone". To avoid a lawsuit from Dee's manager and husband Eric Floyd, she was given co-writing credit for these tracks (under her real name L'wanda McFarland), and featured in The KLF video The Stadium House Trilogy.Dinnen, N., "The KLF featuring Wanda Dee", Beat magazine (Melbourne), 27 October 1993 (link). Following The KLF's retirement, Wanda Dee toured America and Australia using the 'KLF' name, in an act variously reported as being billed "Wanda Dee and The KLF Experience", "The KLF featuring wanda Dee"Te Koha, Nui, "KLF? Not!", Melbourne Herald, 28 October 1993 (link)., and "The KLF".Midro, J., "Wanda Dee and KLF", Zebra magazine (Melbourne), 27 October 1993 (link). These concerts featured live rapping and singing played to a backing tape of The KLF's music ("the hits that she made famous", Floyd claimed), alongside Wanda Dee's solo work. Neither Drummond nor Cauty were involved with the shows. Cauty has commented "I actually felt more sorry for the band than the audience. We did write to them to ask them to reconsider and got this amazing letter in return, they really thought they were the KLF, and without the Wanda Dee sample we would never have sold a single record. 9 out of 10 for total insanity".
*Maxine Harvey - The KLF's lead female vocalist on The White Room projects and "Justified and Ancient (All Bound for Mu Mu Land)", a mix in which she replaces Tammy Wynette.
*Duy Khiem - Played tenor saxophone and clarinet, most prominently on "3 a.m. Eternal". Khiem was also responsible for the a cappella traditional Vietnamese song "Me Ru Con" on 1987 (What the Fuck Is Going On?).Drummond, B., "1987: The Edits", sleevenotes, JAMS 25T, November 1987 (link).
*Graham Lee - Contributed pedal steel to Drummond's solo album The Man, and The KLF's Chill Out and The White Room.
*June Montana - Vocalist with Disco 2000.
*Scott Piering - a well-respected record promoter by trade, Drummond and Cauty claim in The Manual that Piering's involvement in the promotion of "Doctorin' the Tardis" was crucial to its UK Singles Chart successDrummond, B. & Cauty, J. (1989) The Manual (How To Have a Number One The Easy Way), KLF Publications (KLF 009B), UK. . (Link to full text). Piering also leant his voice to several narrations in The KLF's recordings, including many of the profitable singles and the video The Rites of Mu.
*Mark "Spike" Stent - The music producer cites his work with The KLF on their most commercially successful recordings as the key to his subsequent rise to prominence.
*Tony Thorpe - Co-founder of The Moody Boys with Jimmy Cauty, Thorpe was credited for rhythms, samples and breaks during The White Room project. The Moody Boys were also responsible for remix 12"s of the "Stadium House Trilogy" singles.
Whereas The JAMs' earlier work sampled from the popular works of established artists, The KLF's international reputation allowed their later work to feature guest vocals from such established performers as Tammy Wynette, Gary Glitter and Glenn Hughes.
--moved this bit out of the article: it should be made into a separate article. its good but there are size issues (50K max) Zzzzz 11:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I heartily approve of your changes.  Thanks very much.  I've slightly expanded the removed section, creating the article The KLF personnel. --Vinoir 12:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Gosh. I wondered what that was all about it. Taken me by surprise a bit :) Thanks again for your help, I'll have a look at your changes and the FAC debate later. Cheers! --kingboyk 13:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Personnel (2)

message: to prepare for FAC i made a few bold changes: max heading level is now 3 instead of 4, makes TOC smaller and less daunting. removed any sub-headings that came immediately after headings (normally they should be separated by some text). merged any one-pgraph sections. got rid of bold except for alternative band names in lead. rm'ed the above section - i hope someone can make it into a separate article (then it can be linked from this article). in the meantime please continue editing as u see fit. if you want to vote support or object please go here: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The KLF. Zzzzz 12:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FAC

message: i added fairuse rationales to all the single and album covers. if somebody could also add the sources for those images that would be great. the other images i leave to you. here is the relevant wikipolicy: Wikipedia:Image_description_page#Fair_use_rationale. Zzzzz 16:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers, I've had a go at it, and it looks like Vinoir is cleaning up behind me too. I've left a message for the uploader of :Image:The KLF.jpg. Vinoir, with regards to the 2K in a wheelchair photo, can you remember where that came from? (I know I uploaded it, I'm meaning can you remember where it first appeared? I'm sure it was a 2K promotional picture, did it come from their website? (And if you think it did, can you remember the URL?) --kingboyk 16:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, but I'll ask Drstuey if he recognizes it from any of the press clippings.  As for :Image:The KLF.jpg, that is credited at  to "Ronnie Randall", which requires a bit of detective work.  I'll also get on to that. --Vinoir 17:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're gonna have a word with Dr Stuey it might be worth asking at the same time if he can suggest an alternative band photo for the lead. I fear we might have to lose the current one, which is a damn shame to say the least! :( --kingboyk 17:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, because it's a great photo.  I think I've found Ronnie Randall here (describing a guy with the same name who has "over two decades of experience in music, fashion and lifestyle photography and journalism (beginning at i-D in 1982)".  I'm not sure of procedure: would it be worth contacting him and asking (i) "are you he?", (ii) "is the copyright yours and if so, can we use it?", and (iii) "where did it first appear?". --Vinoir 17:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be worth contacting him and asking who owns the copyright (if it's The KLF or a record label and it's a publicity shot we can use it, I think) and if he owns it, would he licence it under the GFDL/Commons? Up to you mate. --kingboyk 17:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I have a reply regarding the lead image on my talk page now. Apparently it was used on a CD cover, but a trimmed CD cover is not fair use. We'll have to either try and get it GFDL licenced or find a replacement. No idea how! You don't have Bill's phone number do you? :) --kingboyk 08:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: Could you convert that section from a list to prose, Vinoir? Besides answering an FAC comment, it would help us better lay out how their equipment changed, add citations/inline references if need be, and it would probably take up less screen real estate too, as it would only be a few lines. --kingboyk 16:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I'll by all means give it a try.  Just realised I didn't have this page on my watchlist (d'oh!). --Vinoir 16:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't get anything that sounds good yet, but I'll keep trying. --Vinoir 17:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like what you've written. Could you add citations please, even if it's only (and I assume it is) sleevenotes (and perhaps the Sound on Sound feature we already reference). --kingboyk 20:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, I had to save it first to see what we'd already used reference-wise.  I haven't used Sound on Sound actually.  I'll put that one in.  It's mostly sleevenotes. --Vinoir 20:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Instrumentation 

message: I'd like to see a couple of changes in intro para.  
: "stadium house" (a form of rave music designed to fill stadiums and large nightclubs). 
I disagree that stadium house was "designed to fill" stadiums - rather it was house music as if it were played live in a stadium - witness the addition of sampled crowd noise to tracks for that live feel. If the stadium house singles were designed to do anything it was to be hit pop singles. Perhaps it could say "stadium house" (rave music with a pop-rock production)? 
: Their most notorious performance was at the February 1992 Brit awards, where they fired a machine gun into the crowd
Surely we need to make clear that they were firing blanks! :-) But I'm not sure what the wording could be. - Drstuey 12:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sofixit man! :) I agree regarding the 1st point (and I wrote it**). With the second, probably you're right but we do mention them being blanks later on... Anyrode, I'll take a look and see what I can do. --kingboyk 12:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. I knew something wasn't right with that "Stadium House" thing, but your interpretation is spot-on, Dr Stuey.  Any more insightful suggestions for improvements that you see, please do say, or even better, come and edit! --Vinoir 16:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --Vinoir 18:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice changes Vinoir, and thanks for the suggestions Stuart. --kingboyk 09:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: two issue about intro para

message: We have some more things from Tony to work on:
*Hyphenate top-ten
*Check Manual of Style regarding bolding in intro, and remove it if our usage is incorrect -- I couldn't find anything, so I've posted a question about it. If we get no answer we'll assume Tony's right and debold.
*Hyphenation (excessive use of, and/or use dashes - I don't know how to get a long dash on my keyboard)
*Piped links for 's, to make it all blue
*"Ellisions within quotations: space before the three dots, unless ending a sentence as well, in which case no space and four dots plus space."
*"The KLF", "The JAMs", etc... Discuss.
Strike out when done. --kingboyk 11:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done/will do everything apart from reviewing hyphenation/changing to dashes. Will you do that Vinoir? --kingboyk 13:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. --Vinoir 13:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That's great but it says "first sentence". (I've moved it here as we can take a position here and summarise over there, lest the debate gets bogged down in technicalities). --kingboyk 16:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. How about this: "One World Orchestra" could eventually redirect to "The Magnificent", since there is enough to say about it without it being fancrufty.  "2K" can redirect to "Fuck the Millennium".  So these two acts could be unbolded, leaving "The JAMs" and "The Timelords" to go alongside "The KLF" in the opening sentence? --Vinoir 16:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup. And the OWO isn't terribly important anyway. --kingboyk 17:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: First draft done. Please have a tinker Vinoir, then let's try to find a quality writer who is fresh to the article to copyedit it. The intro is our showpiece, we must get it right. I know there's shortcomings still, but I'm too familiar with the wording and material to be able to polish it any further :) --kingboyk 10:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More FAC work 

message: I've now finished my trawl through the Library of Mu, so our citations and references are pretty much complete (cheers (v.)). It's funny looking back that I suggested as a prank halting at 23 references, as we now have nearly 80!
I should point out however that I skipped a lot of the press coverage relating to the K Foundation, because of boredom at reading the same things over and over. If/when we come to polishing the KF articles we'll have to use the Library's search feature or browse by date. --kingboyk 11:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it wasn't too long ago that the "23" mark was reached, either! Well done for the research.  I found a couple of as yet unused quotes in the Library that I made notes of and can incorporate.  The progress of all these articles is also thanks to Drstuey, who not only did a lot of early (pre-project) work, but who obviously has enabled much of the subsequent content of the articles to be gleaned. --Vinoir 10:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. I left a message on his talk page inviting him to add his moniker to the list of Project participants. We couldn't have got this far without his efforts. --kingboyk 14:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Library of Mu 

message: I think the new lead image works, and the intro looks way better with a short first paragraph and bold only in the opening sentence. We have nice prose, comprehensive references, fairly used images, and song samples. I'm much more comfortable about the FA candidacy now. --kingboyk 12:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Developments? The FA tag has been added to the Talk page, and the article listed at Wikipedia:Featured articles but the debate hasn't been closed. Maybe tommorow we will have a star? :) On the other hand, it might be a mistake as the 2K picture is still in the article and isn't quite resolved yet... that said, if it gets deleted the article can easily withstand that. --kingboyk 03:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I've had a look at the contribs history of the FA system maintainer, and his modus operandi here is the same as other promotions. He's archived the debate and tagged the article, and that's all he does - tagging the article is left to others. I've left a note on his talk page just to check but it looks like WE MADE IT! Woot! --kingboyk 03:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Me is very happy!  --Vinoir 11:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm currently visiting all the other-language Wikipedia sites that have KLF articles, and tagging the KLF article as "featured at en". Such fun :) --kingboyk 03:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looking good? 

message: nice work on getting the page featured! anyone want the article to go on the mainpage now? are there any klf-significant dates in june that could be appropriate? Zzzzz 18:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah... that reminds me - to thank you for the nomination and your help. Very much appreciated! May 92 is when The KLF retired... June, not sure... we'll discuss/look up dates. --kingboyk 18:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm absolutely delighted with the successful candidacy, wonderful news.  Will respond in greater detail tomorrow.  Just to say, I think 23 June would be a good date.  I can get a message to Bill to look out for it too...! --Vinoir 21:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Has to be the 23rd of some month doesn't it. And if we're still around then, it must appear on the front page in 2010 - an astonishing 23 years from their debut! (and presumably the year of release for The Black Room ;) ) --kingboyk 01:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, we live in hope. :) --Vinoir 14:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: For future reference, here is where these things are discussed: Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests. I think, however, that there's no immediate rush. Let's get our final few improvements implemented, and identify an important date or anniversary. We should also take the great counsel of Zzzzz in this matter, as he knows the ropes better than we do. --kingboyk 14:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 21 July 2006 is the 20th anniversary of the release of The Man - but that doesn't really include Jimmy.  Agreed that there's no mad rush anyhow. --Vinoir 14:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, not enough of a big deal. Should either be a very major anniversary (which might mean waiting until next year) or the 23rd of any month imho. --kingboyk 11:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: June is filling up fast. The 23rd is still vacant right now. --kingboyk 12:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: mainpage?

message: and according to www.klf.de it's the anniversary of the release of Doctorin'. Why aren't we on the front page?! :) (You know, I ought to do some Illuminatus style subversion and simply do it! hehe). --kingboyk 14:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's the 23rd... 

message: The oldest edit in the database is from February 2002, and it was by the conversion script that converted Usemod-format articles into Mediawiki syntax. In other words, this article has been around a long time! Interestingly, most of what was written by Feb 2002 (which isn't much) survived into the present day Featured Article. --kingboyk 16:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looking at the history 

message: I've trimmed some stuff from The JAMs section. Most notably, I've commented out King Boy D's info sheet quotation, which we use again (apart from, at the present time, the "The future?" paragraph) in 1987 (What the Fuck Is Going On?). I think it's an easier read without it. If you agree, please remove the HTML comment and that's another 1k off the article. If you don't agree, revert it. --kingboyk 16:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, that's cool by me. HTML Comment removed. --Vinoir 04:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimmed 

message: Just a thought about the sheeps in their theme. A sheep I've heard is by some persons a symbol for peace, harmless, etc. Also it could be a symbol for "a follower", a person who does just like everyone else does - because everyone else does. Whereas Illuminati is controlling mankind, the controlled mankind is a follower or one being controlled. I dont know if this made any sense to you...--SavX 01:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes good sense, and it's a nice thought, one that hasn't occurred to me before. However, to use the theory in the article it would need to be a published theory otherwise it's original research which isn't allowed. (I know you're new, by the way, so welcome aboard... you'll find out as you get more involved that there are lots of guidelines here to keep the articles neutral, balanced and enyclopedic. :) This particular article is a featured article meaning it has been identified as one of Wikipedia's best. Anyway, if you have any questions about editing here drop me a line on my talk page or at WT:KLF.) --kingboyk 08:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why sheep?

message: What is "links spam" ? I think this (the current list) looks halfway spam:
    * www.klf.de german KLF homepage
    * www.klf-communications.net KLF homepage
    * search.klf-communications.net KLF database
    * pics.klf-communications.net KLF gallery
    * KLF Mailing List
    * Video clips of a 1990 KLF interview
    * KLF Communications at the Internet Movie Database
    * The KLF at the All Music Guide
    * The KLF and Illuminatus! - including a list of their references to the number 23.
For the reasons: www.klf-communications is listed three times, just different pages on the same site. The only of those three worth being listed, are the first one. And it should have a description that its a discography database. Giving a website called "www.klf-communications.net" the description "KLF homepage", would make people believe its their official homepage.
The other two are not the first interesting pages for a non-fan. Instead of linking to "The KLF and Illuminatus!" which is just one section on the KLF-site, its probably better to link to the indexpage, which also has other interesting KLF-links. The Illuminatus-links is already well covered under Themes article in this article.
And what about other sites like PositiveVoid, the discussion forum, the FAQ at http://www.illitrate.co.uk/klf/FAQ/KLFfaq.html or at KLF Online, etc ?
:Yes, I don't know why someone has taken to doing that but I've rolled it back again. It's nothing to do with me or WikiProject The KLF (which is myself and Stuart at the moment as Vinoir has vanished into thin air). --kingboyk 16:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Link_spam (or here) is the practice of placing links to your own website on more popular sites in order to increase the search engine ranking of your website. In the context of wikipedia this means linking to non-notable websites. WP:EL is the wikipedia policy on external links. One of the guidelines is that "Blogs, social networking sites and forums should generally not be linked to unless mandated by the article itself." Which would be one reason why I keep deleting the link to the totally useless "Jimmy Cauty forum" website. I actually thought the inclusion of the alternate addresses for klf-communications.net was sort of useful and possibly Justified as they allow non-JavaScript users accces to the info. - Drstuey 10:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh and an even more relevant policy link is: WP:MUSTARD#External_links. It says, link to "forums or other community pages, only if they are an unusually established and recognized institution with an important focus." and "Fansites, unofficial fanclubs, online stores and similar sites should generally not be linked." and also that "In general, when linking to a fanclub, unofficial community page or other such website, it may be wise to provide a justification on the talk page.". - Drstuey 10:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Links section

message: hi, just to inform you that the article The KLF discography is currently up for Featured List Candidacy. Please vote "support" or "object" with your comments at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/The KLF discography. cheers! Zzzzz 12:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The KLF discography