Template talk:Batman

message: Since the names of all the alt Batgirls and Robins are listed shouldn't the replacement Batmen be listed as well. Yes I know Azrael and Dick Grayson appear in other places but Stephanie Brown now appears twice, appropriately so, so wh can't they 24.168.27.158 (talk) 14:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I would say that's an argument for removing one of the Stephanie Brown's, not adding more names.  Moving Stephanie Brown to a solo entry, since people can of course get details about the character's events on her article. -Markeer 02:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you do that then all of the names should be separated while a leaving a link to the basic Robin and batgirl pages 24.168.27.158 (talk) 19:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Batman Names

message: I a while ago made an batman enemies article consisted of just a little bit more villians than the one used in the template right now. Surprised to find out that it's still there after so long I decided to show you. I doubt that you may use it but hey worth a try showing it to you.Captain Virtue (talk) 15:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're referring to List of Batman Family enemies it's still linked on this template (as that title, left side of template) -Markeer 22:36, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

text: No I am referring to what I have on the bottom. It's not really an article I know I am not sure what you call it. But I am really talking about this. User:Captain Virtue/Batman/adversaries which just shows the same thing you see above .Captain Virtue (talk) 22:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: New Batman enemies article

message: Could Batzarro count as Batman family. Jhenderson777 (talk) 19:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As a recent and largely minor character, he wouldn't belong on this template.  If you can find reliable sources to demonstrate a strong and unique significance of the character in Batman's history, feel free to bring that up here. -Markeer 23:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Well I do feel that Joe Chill should be on the template somewhere but I am not sure where. I don't think I even have to explain what strong significance he has done to Batman. Jhenderson777 (talk) 19:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would imagine a strong argument could be found for Joe Chill, but looking at the wikipedia article on that subject, I notice it is decidedly lacking in footnotes or other citation.  I'd recommend to anyone wishing to add him to this template to put in the work of improving the source article extensively, and then come back here to discuss reliable sources of his notability to the Batman. -Markeer 17:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Batzarro

message: This article speaks for itself now. Is it good enough to make it to the template? /Yvwv (talk) 18:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe it would belong on the primary navbox.  It's already a significant subsection of the main Batman article, so there's no issue of readers being unable to find out more about the topic easily, and for that matter the article appears to just be a slight expansion of that subsection.  I've always supported the inclusion of some attention to the topic on the main article, but I don't see much need for the split-off article, much less adding a link to it in this navbox.  The key phrase of this template (to me at least) is "overview".  A broad first-hit look at the most significant articles surrounding the character, and I'd want to hear a strong well-supported argument as to why this split-off article would be considered one of those. -Markeer 04:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article has grown even more. Is anything missing to include it in the template? /Yvwv (talk) 14:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: See comments below under Fictional History of Dick Grayson -Markeer 12:18, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Homosexuality in the Batman franchise]]

message: Do you think Killer Moth, Maxie Zeus and the Terrible Trio should be included in the template. Batman has fought them a lot. Rtkat3 (talk) 9:30, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Recurring Batman villains

message: Please add the following to this template:

 <noinclude>
 [[Category:Batman templates|Batman adversaries]]
 [[Category:Television templates|Batman adversaries]]
 [[Category:Comic book templates|Batman adversaries]]
 </noinclude>

Thanks! GregorB (talk) 15:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: JPG-GR (talk) 03:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: ===Initial===
BaneBlack MaskDeadshotCatwomanClayfaceGreat White SharkHarley QuinnHushJokerKiller CrocKiller MothMad HatterMan-BatMaxie ZeusMr. FreezePenguinPoison IvyProfessor MiloRa's al GhulRiddlerScarecrowTerrible TrioTweedledum and TweedledeeTwo-FaceVentriloquist & ScarfaceVictor Zsasz
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Virtue (talk • contribs) 
P.S. This was originally signed by the one who posted it. But this section kept being changed around by other editors. So not all the discussion is his. Jhenderson777 (talk) 20:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this editor is requesting some additions to the /adversaries section. I suggest this needs discussing first. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman/antagonists 

message: BaneBlack MaskDeadshotCatwomanClayfaceGreat White SharkHarley QuinnHushJokerKiller CrocKiller MothMad HatterMan-BatMaxie ZeusMr. FreezePenguinPoison IvyProfessor MiloRa's al GhulRiddlerScarecrowTerrible TrioTweedledum and TweedledeeTwo-FaceVentriloquist & ScarfaceVictor Zsasz
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Virtue (talk • contribs) 
P.S. This was originally signed by the one who posted it. But this section kept being changed around by other editors. So not all the discussion is his. Jhenderson777 (talk) 20:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Initial

message: Black Mask
Killer Moth
Mr. Zsasz
Pagemonster18 18:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this editor is requesting some additions to the /adversaries section. I suggest this needs discussing first. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Pagemonster18, 17 May 2010 

message: While the current lay out is reasonable for most of the listed articles, there is a way to expand the list just for the "foes" articles.
The nutshell is that the template can be coded to show a larger list on those pages while retaining the current 15 for the other pages.
- J Greb (talk) 22:24, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: I moved Alfred out of supporting characters.
Since the template has been redesigned to group/show (for lack of a better description) the "suit-wearing"/"codename-wearing" characters, that would seem to apply to Alfred too. 
When we consider how many times he wore the suit, and that before barbara gordon became oracle, he often acted in that fashion at the batcave.
And speaking of that, he's a batcave regular.
(Not to mention the incident of becoming the outsider.)
So with all that in mind, it just would seem to make sense to place him with that group. - jc37 19:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alfred 

message: I like this feature. many other templates for comics franchises dont include this, and dont have such lists. I would strongly recommend that people create such lists for the major franchises, and add them to the various templates. its really not helpful to see only lee and kirby as the "creators" for fantastic four. yes, they are the creators of the original 4 heros and most of the first supporting characters, but surely later writers and artists deserve to be in that spot as well. Pogo possum has walt kelly, period, but every time a comic has a redesign, a new lineup, someone has "created" that scenario, and deserves mention (assuming its a notable creation, as always).(mercurywoodrose)66.80.6.163 (talk) 19:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other creators 

message: When I show this template on Bane (comics), the Enemies section includes a link to Blockbuster (comics) that should be changed to Blockbuster (DC Comics).  However, when I view Template:Batman directly, I see no such link.  Could someone please point out what I'm doing wrong and fix the link?  Thanks!  GoingBatty (talk) 18:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in sub-template designed to only show on the "villains" pages - . When the link was "repaired" the editor only fixed the switch, not the actual link. - J Greb (talk) 22:29, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks J Greb.  When I went to  I didn't see "Blockbuster" listed in Read mode.  However, when I viewed the template in Edit mode, I saw the link.  Thanks again!  GoingBatty (talk) 03:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting help fixing Blockbuster link 

message: I think Red Hood should be added as he is one of Batman's modern recurring foes like Hush, and sometimes randomly appears as the Joker so if Joker is included in the template and Hush is, I think you should add him as he is still more recurring than Hush.
(Jogoblin (talk) 07:46, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Red Hood article has two major sections: Joker and Jason Todd, both of which are already included in the template.  GoingBatty (talk) 01:01, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Hood 

message: Remove Hush from the villains section or, better, add The Ventriloquist, Black Mask, Hugo Strange. Hush has no mainstream precence: while he has not appeared anywhere outside comics, they have at least 4 appearances each in two or more TV series. I'd say that even the likes of Firefly, Killer Moth or Cavalier are more important to the mythos.
20-dude (talk) 21:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done:  is not required for edits to  unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages. The page containing Hush is , which is only semi-protected. You should probably read up about #switch functions before you edit it though. Best — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 16:01, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for assessing this. I've now made the edit. Hopefully I got the syntax right : ) - jc37 16:04, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup. - J Greb (talk) 18:52, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 30 August 2012 

message: I think every section of the template, apart from "creators" should be categorized alphabetically. For the "Batman family" section, I think you could place "Azrael""Shared codenames", while her alter ego in the "Character names" section. For the "(Catwoman)" in "Character names" section, you could delete it and place "Selina Kyle" in supporting cast section as she has never been truly let into the Batman family, only considered a close ally and being rejected from the family. Talia al Ghul is more of a villain that supporting cast as she only helps Batman when she feels pitiful for him or their interests align. Red Hood could be added as he is a very popular alias of The Joker and the current identity of Jason Todd who is a core character in the mythos, very recurring as Red Hood and has his own Red Hood and the Outlaws series which notes his infamy. Thanks! TheBat&TheCat (talk) 10:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Template Order

message: How can I make a case to prove that those 3 should be listed as well?
Killer Moth was once relevant; however, his mainstream precense is terrible.
The 3 characters I'm mentioning have been around for over 20 years, and have been the lead villain in 5 or more TV stories and have been the main villain of at least one crossover or long story arc.
Ventriloquist / Scarface: Very recurring in comics, his comical look makes him a favorite for cameos in Arkham scenes (both in comics and animation). Was the main villain in the Batman: Cataclysm arc. Killed off in the past continuity and restored in the New 52. In Batman: The Animated Series he appeared in Read My Lips, Catwalk and Double Talk as the main villain, plus Lock-Up, Trial, Over The Edge; the dummy was constanty seen in the backgroun of Batman Beyond and he made a silent cameo in Justice League. In the Batman, he appeared in "The Big Dummy", "A Fistful of Felt" and "The End of The Batman".
Hugo Strange: Is the oldest of the recurring enemies of Batman. He was the main villain in "Strange Apparitions", one of the turning points of the Batman character. He was the main villain of one episode of Batman: The Animated Series, made a cameo in Justice League Unlimited, and with 7 episodes was the third most recurring foe in The Batman (after the Joker and the Penguin). He's a recurring character in Young Justice.
Black Mask: Bacame the lead crime boss of Gotham in recent year, which made him the main villain in War Games and a number of Catwoman issues, as well as one of the main players in Under the Hood. He appeared in 3 episodes of The Batman and 2 of Batman: The Brave and the Bold.
The next in fame would be Firefly, however he has never been the main villain of any long arc.
--20-dude (talk) 08:12, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely Hugo Strange. He's historically important as Batman's first long-term enemy, the earliest candidate to be his Moriarty. Doczilla STOMP! 15:23, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hugo Strange is Batman only, historically important, the villain in Arkham City and generally a big deal. Should definitely go in. I'm also partial to adding Hush (but not the others), but Hugo Strange's omission should strike anyone looking at the table as an editorial oversight.Zythe (talk) 13:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

text: I've opposed the inclusion of these three in the past, as the editorial consensus of the template was to keep it extremely small and lean.  But, time has gone by and it's expanded so it's certainly a good idea to consider those past decisions again.  Adding these three would involve moving to a second line on the "Villains" section, which wouldn't horribly expand the navbox, but I will ask that editors respect the guidelines of Template:Batman/doc to note verifiable reliable sources for each inclusion.  "X character was in 5 episodes" is an argument for inclusion, not evidence of notability on it's own.  Multiple non-trivial coverage in secondary sources is, as always, the standard for inclusion for wikipedia. -Markeer 13:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hugo Strange is notable historically for being Batman's first long-term enemy, the original candidate to be his Moriarty until cooler villains came along.  So yes on Hugo. But Firefly? No, no, no, no, and no. Doczilla @SUPERHEROLOGIST 20:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

text: I think it's fine the way it is. Although if you would want more than just the top 15. Then yeah Hugo Strange and Ventriloquist would probably be next in line. They are probably the oldest villains on the hidden villain category. Jhenderson 777 23:05, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ventriloquist, Black Mask and Hugo Strange 

message: This is my opinion on where the characters go. I want you to add yours. You can even add more. Hopefully we can make a consensus on that. 
Base               	Additional            	Questionable                                             	Out
                   	Anarky                	                                                         	
Bane (comics)      	                      	                                                         	
                   	Black Mask (comics)   	                                                         	
                   	                      	Blockbuster (comics): Sounds like more of a Robin villain	
                   	Calendar Man          	                                                         	
                   	Catman (comics)       	                                                         	
Catwoman           	                      	                                                         	
Clayface           	                      	                                                         	
                   	Cluemaster            	                                                         	
                   	Deadshot              	                                                         	
                   	Firefly (comics)      	                                                         	
Harley Quinn       	                      	                                                         	
                   	Hugo Strange          	                                                         	
                   	Hush (comics)         	                                                         	
Joker (comics)     	                      	                                                         	
                   	Joe Chill             	                                                         	
                   	                      	KGBeast                                                  	
Killer Croc        	                      	                                                         	
                   	Killer Moth           	                                                         	
Mad Hatter (comics)	                      	                                                         	
Man-Bat            	                      	                                                         	
                   	Maxie Zeus            	                                                         	
Mr. Freeze         	                      	                                                         	
                   	Mr. Zsasz             	                                                         	
Penguin (comics)   	                      	                                                         	
Poison Ivy (comics)	                      	                                                         	
Ra's al Ghul       	                      	                                                         	
                   	Red Hood              	Alter ego list of Joker and Jason Todd                   	
Riddler (comics)   	                      	                                                         	
Scarecrow (comics) 	                      	                                                         	
                   	                      	Terrible Trio                                            	
                   	                      	Tweedledum and Tweedledee (comics)                       	
Two-Face           	                      	                                                         	
                   	Ventriloquist (comics)	                                                         	
 Jhenderson 777 14:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  consensus on villains belonging 

message: I'm reverting this template to remove a significant amount of changes, primarily by the editor DanDudd88 but with some additions by other editors.  While I respect the extensive amount of work, I have three major issues with these changes:
:1) The addition of so many links and sections has effectively doubled the size of this template, which appears on a large number of pages, subsequently increasing the length of all of those pages (although the template is click-reduced by default on those with multiple navboxes).  Navigation boxes are intended primarily to facilitate one's ability to find out more information on a topic in a simple and direct manner, so in my opinion they work best when kept very tight and focused.  Batman is a topic that links across a great many Wikipedia articles so it's reasonable that someone looking at any one of those articles might wish to find out more about a variety of subjects.  So this navbox has value, but that value diminishes when that theoretical someone is faced with an enormity of options.  This box works best with a broad overview, and little more than that.  Many of its links lead to other broad subjects, so it shouldn't take any searcher more than two clicks to find a specific subject. But first and foremost they should have an index, not a full list.
:2) The Template Documentation section (found directly under the template here) very clearly expresses a long-standing editorial consensus that adding villains should only be done with appropriate documentation.  If memory serves, this documentation note was only made about villains since there was a great deal of back-and-forth on that subject some years back, but I would say that the essence of the note applies to any characters, and most links of any kind.  Regardless, the new villain additions obviously have not respected this consensus guideline.
:3) There's one particular new section I have a very strong opinion against: The "Other Writers" section added by Editor DanDudd88 is a direct duplication of the list that one finds by clicking on Other Writers.  I would strongly argue against increasing the length of so many pages for information that is already available with one click, and which has a presumed bias regarding choices of which creators and writers are important or not.  Previous consensus was to only add the official creators of the character and one link toward "other" to avoid such bias.  I continue to agree with that consensus.
I'll leave a note on DanDudd88's talk page as a courtesy but this is a subject for any editor to talk about as I believe such large changes to this template should be discussed before being restored. -Markeer 15:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. He added too much...but looking for a consensus here feels like looking for acorns in a peanut shell. Jhenderson 777 19:13, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: October 2013 Changes

message: Hi, this is my proposal for the template since there are a lot of major issues going on with the layout of this template. 
* Firstly, I don't think the villains under "additional villains" (in the real Wikipedia template) are needed since all of them lack fame (or infamy), like literally ALL of them. 
* Lady Shiva isn't a villain since she willingly retrained Batman and bears respect for earth's heroes,so, I suggest we put her under "Supporting Characters". 
* Firefly isn't famous (or infamous) enough to be a "primary" villain. 
* All the locations are in Gotham City, so, I think we should put them in a long bracket, to make readers understand that all these locations except Bludhaven, Lazarus Pit and Santa Prisca are in Gotham.
* GothCorp isn't featured at all except in Batman: The Animated Series since its comic appearances in "Legends of the Dark Knight" are non-canonical http://www.therealbatmanchronologyproject.com
* I think we should change "Shared Codenames" to "Codenames", like an umbrella section for all codenames (including Catwoman and Azrael). 
</noinclude>
--Zinthos7 (talk) 11:54, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Support paring back the navbox to User:Zinthos7's suggestion.  It looks awful in it's current form and looking through the recent history it seems almost all recent additions were made solely by two editors, User:Rtkat3 and a banned sockpuppet named User:Tranquility_of_Soul.  Two people add, two people suggesting consideration means no consensus for the large additions.  This is a request for comment before I revert (as that's rude to do when *I* also don't have consensus) --Markeer 22:53, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 

message: --Zinthos7 (talk) 02:14, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Support paring back the navbox to User:Zinthos7's suggestion.  It looks awful in it's current form and looking through the recent history it seems almost all recent additions were made solely by two editors, User:Rtkat3 and a banned sockpuppet named User:Tranquility_of_Soul.  Two people add, two people suggesting consideration means no consensus for the large additions.  This is a request for comment before I revert (as that's rude to do when *I* also don't have consensus) --Markeer 22:53, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: please add Batman (Terry McGinnis) to the roster. --76.175.67.121 (talk) 18:47, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman (Terry McGinnis) 

message: Any reason Ventriloquist (comics) shouldn't be added. He is been quite recurring as an antagonist? Many media appearances of him. He's quite recognizable too. I might boldly add him but I want to make sure there is no objections. Jhenderson 777 00:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't count "Deathstroke being in Batman: Arkham Origins" being a plausible argument. We need sources. Maybe list sources. Like "top 
Batman villains" on IGN or something similar to that. One problem with Anarky is more of an anti-hero while this navbox clearly says villain. 
Also this judging my media adaptions is got to stop. The comic books are the main source of an inclusion. Batman has had more media adaptions than almost any superhero on the modern age so there can be a lot of villains that have had a chance to appear like Anarky. We are grasping at straws here a little bit regarding that specifically. Like I said sources and a character appearing in comic books for a long and consistent time are better for that. Media adaptions are just an another good example with that. Also the character has got to be a household name. One reason why I was ok with the Ventriloquist because I know most people hearing of him as a Batman villain. 
Jhenderson 777 18:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Also I am not the one who made the rule of discussing it. Those were some administrators who took charge of that concept. But I am not sure they are still active. The only thing I am sure I am not approving is Deathstroke being a Batman villain. He is a borrowed Teen Titans villain and that's that.   Jhenderson 777 18:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

text: I suppose I am fine with the ordering thing. Batman and Robin and everything else alphabetical seems a bit weird but whatever. Catwoman is somebody that is notable as a villain because the character started out that way. Being a thug is obviously villainous. Firefly just seems like a character that we can go "what about Killer Moth Cluemaster, Calendar Man, etc too Maybe they are in the same leaugue too". So I am not sure of that character as I am not sure of what characters I referenced too. I have more to say but I will talk later. Jhenderson 777 01:41, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ventriloquist  

message: please add Batman (Dark Knight Universe) to the roster. --76.175.67.121 (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman (Dark Knight Universe) 

message: Court of Owls. --173.55.119.156 (talk) 07:20, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  please add 

message: Alex17Hero (talk) 17:19, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am k6ka Talk to me! See what I have done 00:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2015 

message: Maggie Sawyer is an Batwoman supporting character. Batwoman not Batman. That's only in a little bit of Batwoman comic books at that. Duela Dent was an Teen Titans member. New 52 is revamping her in the rogues gallery. That doesn't count. Classic major villains should be the spotlight. New 52 is too current to count Duela Dent. Deathstroke is a crossover villain and also a character that has had his own comic book series. He is a major archenemy of the Teen Titans originally. Adding him as a Green Arrow villain is ok because Green Arrow didn't really have much of a rogues gallery anyway. So the writers have written him off as one of Green Arrow's greatest rivals. Not so with Batman. Yes they had stalemate encounters. But the most notable one is from a Deathstroke comic book making Batman more of the antagonist. We should count Batman comic books since they are both in a shared universe where of course they would cross over. Jhenderson 777 01:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your second reasoning was a terrible reasoning for edit warring. You didn't explain why you wanted them back but instead you pointed the finger back at me. No straw-man arguements please. I brought back the inclusions when people took away the adversaries template. I never removed the villains that I thought shouldn't haven't stayed. What happened is we had this on the template but for some reasons it was removed and I brought all the characters that were on it before along with a few more additions that I boldly put in with no disagreement yet. Jhenderson 777 02:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check out Wikipedia:Recentism. Just because something going on currently doesn't deserve it's inclusion. You put Duela Dent as part of the villains. She and Simon Hurt are lacking something that all the villains have. Media adaptions is the biggest thing. With characters like Superman, Batman and Spider-Man, the rule of thumb to help prove notability was that they had media adaptions of themselves and alternate versions of themselves along with being VERY RECURRING in the title character's own comic book for a long time (Detective Comics, Batman, etc.) All that together.  Not in universal comic book logic. I can tell you are a fan of the comics. Unfortunately what happens in the comics only half of why one should be included. The biggest reason of why we allow them to be included is that they have proven to be a notable Batman villain / supporting character without even needing to read the comic books. Not explanations that should be used in Wikia. Unfortunately that Maggie Sawyer reasoning is very modern and not as recurring compared to Superman adaption. Also no media adaption has helped prove that that's the most notable feature of her. She still appears in Superman media. If she would have been a big deal supporting character she should be in Batman media soon. No Rush.  Also you said since Deathstroke is on the Green Arrow navbox. He should be on Batman navbox. Please see: Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. That doesn't help explain that he SHOULD be on there. It just explains why you want him to be on there. Also I apologize for coming off as rude. That's not how I meant to come off at all. Also regarding Simon Hurt, I ain't going to revert you if you add JUST HIM.  Jhenderson 777 03:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Deathstroke is different because (like I said) he is a crossover villain. He is obviously one of the most notable villains enough to clash with many supervillains. Also since Batman is WB's most used character in other media. It is not surprising that he he was used in Batman media. In any case he was just a crossover villain in the other media as well. I want you to point out all the Batman comic books that Deathstroke has been and if it at least thirty issues then consider myself wrong that Deathstroke isn't a common antagonist of Batman. That's depending on how regular Deathstroke really is. The more popular the villain. The more he crosses over. For right now this seems like adding Juggernaut as a Spider-Man villain on a navbox. Regarding Joker's daughter being canon. That doesn't matter.  We shouldn't even count New 52 introduced characters at all for the New 52 part.hat's too young!   Put her somewhere else besides the villain part is all I am asking. Maybe where Batzorro is at. Jhenderson 777 04:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I caved with everything but the inclusion of Deathstroke. I still don't think of him as a Batman rogue.  I wouldn't mind being proved wrong. I just disagree for the time being. Jhenderson 777 05:12, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am curious though. Why do you remove characters. Not that I feel that Doctor Death should appear. He is Batman's first recurring villain though. After that is the Monk. Even the Cavalier is an early classic villain that could maybe work. They seem to be in some ways a better inclusion than a character who obsesses over being Joker's Daughter. Them and the Dollmaker. Jhenderson 777 05:40, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

text: I'll concede with Deathstroke. Given the direction DC is taking him, if he doesn't go on to play a bigger role in the Batman family series, I wouldn't be surprised if they find him in a permanent role interacting with the Suicide Squad or have him antagonize Green Arrow even more. We'll see. His Teen Titans villain days appear to be all but over though. 
If she's not going to be included as a villain in the Batman navbox, then she might as well not be included at all. The comparison with Juggernaut isn't a good one because he debuted and stayed as a X-Men villain, and actually became rather popular in that capacity (Deathstroke would be the more appropriate comparison here)...whereas Duela did debut in a Batman title. It was Robin she was really obsessed over, and she's also claimed parentage from numerous other Batman villains besides the Joker. Given her outright axe-crazy villainous portrayal recently, I suspect she's meant to be a legacy heir character if and when they decide to retire the Joker for good, but her pre-Flashpoint characterization was more complex and interesting. 
I find Doctor Death to be extremely obscure, even by comic book readership standards. He may have been the first recurring antagonist, but he hasn't left any mark in Batman's long publication history. It doesn't help that he ended up dying not long after his New 52 reintroduction. There's the saying along the lines of being the first doesn't matter but being the best does, and he's a perfect example of that. Julie Madison is kind of like that too as far as being Batman's love interest, but they did use her in that 1989 movie. Haleth (talk) 06:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

text: I was comparing Deathstroke to Juggernaut. Not Duela. Also believe me Juggernaut  is considered a Spider-Man foe. He was ranked as one of his greatest foes by both Comic Book Resources and IGN. The main reason is because of one of their most popular comic book storyline. That isn't the only time they clashed either. The only reason why he isn't in the Spider-Man navbox is the same reason of Deathstroke. Jhenderson 777 15:36, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I feel that your reasonings are that you aren't a big fan of them. You seem to have a strong likenings to current comics. Definitely ones written by Grant Morrison and the New 52. It almost seems like Batman is your favorite superhero as I only have conflict with you regarding him. I remember you in archenemy having disagreements there involving Batman. Also how is Doctor Death obscure but Proffessor Pyg not? Killer Moth? Tweedledum and Tweedledee? Also how has Joker's Daughter been an important antagonist in the New 52 compared to the Court of Owls or the Dollmaker? Also it isn't the fact that Doctor Death died early in the New 52. It's the fact that he managed to return once again in the New 52. He doesn't have to be recurring in the New 52. He was always a bit recurring to start off with. Not compared to Hugo Strange. More like Proffessor Pyg, Tweedledum and Tweedledee or Doctor Hurt. They only reasoning he doesn't have to be on there is media adaptions. But now that we included Doctor Hurt on the navbox. I guess that doesn't matter. This of course is my opinion. Also you are welcome to have yours. Jhenderson 777 16:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

text: lol. Did you just imply that I don't like characters like Deathstroke? He's like one of my favorite DC villains. Also Batman is technically not my favorite superhero too. At least not always. I was clearly in many other navboxes if you were paying attention. I even noticed your Iron Man navbox comment. Also don't you remember me being on the Spider-Man navbox having a difference of opinion. Jhenderson 777 13:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

text: Forgive me for interjecting. But if Deathstroke isn't significant enough to be included as a Batman rogue, why is Batman mentioned at the very top of the Deathstroke page? 101.181.65.52 (talk) 14:56, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the inclusions 

message: Gillian B. Loeb is listed as a police contact, when he is an enemy of Batman I would have create another enemy type "Corrupt officials" with Gillian B. Loeb, Amanda Waller, Arnold John Flass and Mayor Hamilton Hill.
92.23.155.84 (talk) 01:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  B E C K Y  S A Y L E S  02:05, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2016 

message: I don't know who split-off the characters navbox but I never thought it needed a split. We needed a consensus first.  Having it without all the rest of the fictional universe stuff like the Batsuit and Arkham Asylum seems out of place. We should have started with a consensus with who is going here in the first place. Never there should have been a divided navbox just because editors wanted to include everyone in it. To not have Robin, Joker, Catwoman etc. in it seems like it's a waste. There is POV either way you look into it. The other navbox does that. The list article already does that. The Superman navbox does it. But at least this navbox would be more useful. Jhenderson 777 19:02, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Spliting the characters keeps a template like this form being gigantic. It's way better. Also please stop reverting yourslef back and forth.★Trekker (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It was never THAT "gigantic". Just look at Template:X-Men. Also I got the iPad go button to blame for reverting you the second time. I then reverted myself for not continuing what I was saying. Jhenderson 777 19:43, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

text: "It's way better". That's your opinion man. I don't think this makes this navbox better. Just the other navbox better. Also everything I said on your talk page I obviously mean here too. I don't know why you question me talking on your page but since you do I will remain here for now. Jhenderson 777 19:52, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't feel the need to have the same conversation on more than one place, it's pretty pointless and takes time. Splitting navboxes once they get to big is pretty common. I think splitting the X-Men template might have been a good idea as well if it wasn't for the fact that that nabox is pretty much just characters anyway. Your opinon that it's not too big not anymore valid than mine that it is. Take it up to the comics project if you want more input, becuse otherwise we might just go in circles in this disscussion.★Trekker (talk) 19:58, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well my overall complaint is not that there is a character navbox anyway. Just that there isn't any characters on here. I don't think that dividing up a character navbox should mean that we should say goodbye to having characters here. All the characters navboxes have characters in it like the X-Men navbox did. That's kind of my point. But I do agree we will go on circles if we keep discussing it. Also I have a feeling that the consensus will be in your favor any way. So never mind. I will see with what I with the characters navbox. I still like the overall ordering of chronological appearances. But that can just be me too. Jhenderson 777 20:08, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characters be splitoff 

message: Should we include here only publications with "Batman" in the title, or should we also include all the publications where Batman is directly involved?
This would mean adding Trinity, JL, & JLA, but not the Batman Family titles. Is Batman Beyond a Batman title, or a Batman Family title?
As such the list would be:
* Batman
* Detective Comics
* Batman Beyond
* Trinity
* Justice League
* Justice League of America
Is there a template with the Batman Family Publications?
* Batman Beyond
* Nightwing
* Batwoman
* Batgirl
* Batgirl and the Birds of Prey
* Red Hood and the Outlaws
* Super Sons
* Mother Panic (?)
--Coquidragon (talk) 22:25, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should be avoided. Spin-off titles about other characters or team titles don't beling on the navbox with only the specific character. I think there should be a navbox for the "ongoing Batman family publications" that is separate from this or the overall "Batman publication" template.★Trekker (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman Publications