Talk:Upper Canada College

message: I have removed all of the previous discussion to an archive page, linked above, so that we can make a fresh start. I have removed semi-protection from the article as an experiment to see if we can all work together to improve the article. This experiment can only work, and the article remain unprotected, if editors:
*agree to make only edits that conform with Wikipedia’s policy of a neutral point of view;
*refrain from deleting large portions of text for any reason;
*post requests for verification of contentious points of information on the talk page instead of removing them from the article;
*be civil with each other.
Administrators will be montioring the article and will restore semi-protection or even full protection if it degenerates into a revert war again, or if large parts of the article are blanked.
Let’s work together on this. Ground Zero | t 17:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A fresh start 

message: I have a few issues with the following section:
"The College states that 99% of all graduates go on to post-secondary schooling. Though the career paths of the College's alumni are varied, with most achieving moderate success, UCC has a reputation for educating many of Canada's powerful, elite and wealthy. The school has produced five Lieutenant-Governors, one Governor General, no less than seventeen graduates have been appointed to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, twenty four have been named Rhodes Scholars [25], and at least twenty four have received the Order of Canada since the award's inception in 1967. The varied results of UCC's graduates prompted James Fitzgerald to write the book Old Boys: The Powerful Legacy of Upper Canada College, in which he tried to explore "a school that could produce a federal cabinet minister and a drug-crazed murderer in the same graduating year." [26]"
i) "with most achieving moderate success" - the sentence is both subjective and objecive. I have (on multi-occassions) changed the sentence to read: "Though the career paths of the College's alumni are varied, UCC has a reputation for educating many of Canada's powerful, elite and wealthy"; only to find it reverted. Objective and subjective statements have no place in an encyclopedia entry;
ii) "The College states that 99%.." - I have not seen this stated anywhere. The College does state 100% on all its publications. 
iii) "The school has produced five Lieutenant-Governors, one Governor General, no less than seventeen graduates have been appointed to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, twenty four have been named Rhodes Scholars [25], and at least twenty four have received the Order of Canada since the award's inception in 1967." - There are a few issues here surrounding the veracity of the statements - with the exception of the Rhodes Scholars, the other figures have not be accurately counted. For instance to state that only 24 Old Boys are members of the Order of Canada - is simply wrong and is very hard to properly count. To be honest, I don't think an encyclopedia entry can cite lists of Old Boy accomplishments unless the figures are real and not mere estimates or approximations.
* i) "with most achieving moderate success" I have no issue with your proposed sentence "Though the career paths of the College's alumni are varied, UCC has a reputation for educating many of Canada's powerful, elite and wealthy," but can't recall it ever being proposed.  Mostly people just obliterated the entire text at the opening of that section, as seems to have been done again today.
* ii) "The College states that 99%.." A copy of Old Times I have from the mid '90s gave the number 99%.  Granted, that is now almost ten years old, so if more recent publications say 100%, then the number should certainly be altered to reflect the current situation.
* iii) "The school has produced five Lieutenant-Governors, one Governor General..." Apart from the cited number of Rhodes Scholars, the numbers given are drawn from a survey of List of Upper Canada College alumni, from which it is clear that the school has produced four lieutenant-governors and one governor general.  It also shows that "at least" 24 have received the Order of Canada, and "no less than" 17 have been appointed to the QC.  Just because these numbers are the minimums does not make them wrong, nor less real, and certainly not approximations. --gbambino 17:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alumni 

message: Parts of this page read like a pamphlet from the school and even when the school's darker (racist/sexist) parts are mentioned, it seems fairly biased.  Although most facts are cited, two of the editors of this page have the UCC tag in their profile.  Someone who isn't from UCC should review this article.
:Instead of making a sweeping statement about the article, could you please point out specifically where it seems that POV is directing the writing of the text?  Stating that it "reads like a pamphlet" simply isn't enough - often pamphlets list facts, and, coincidentally, so does an encyclopaedia.  Further, just because one went to the school doesn't mean they're automatically biased in favour of it - there have been Old Boy editors here who were quite the opposite, and did their best to insert every negative point they could (fortunately the compromise is the ethnic and sexism section as seen now, which I'd say is accurate and fairly balanced, rather than biased).
:If you want to request a peer review, then by all means, do so (though I'd imagine it would require you registering with a user name, or asking someone with one to make the request for you), but, instead of that, or in the meantime, you might want to try yourself to correct or counter exactly what you see as currently biased. --gbambino 17:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if Gbambino is churlish but would agree that Gbambino certainly lacks a neutral POV in his edits. He seems intent on maximizing the amount of positive things to say about UCC in excrutiatingly boring detail (like WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY too much detail on cadets, architecture and historical minutiae). He also systematically challenges each and every insertion that has a negative implication for the reputation of the school. I showed it to one friend and his reaction was that Gbambino probably worked for the UCC staff. Jonawiki 19:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What you find boring others may not - I'm no particular fan of military history myself, but no doubt there are others who would find UCC's Cadet Corps of interest.  As for your allegations about my "censoring" negative aspects of the school's past, I suggest you do more resarch into my edit history - I may come down hard on POV, but anything that's factual and relevant I don't remove. --G2bambino 16:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia tends to favour those who are registered with user names.  Not my rule, simply pointing it out for your benefit. --G2bambino 16:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not from the school, but judging from Bambino's history, I think it's fair to say that he's done a great job helping to promote UCC's image on Wikipedia. Since I've been to the school a couple of times, I can tell you that the school is, without a doubt in my mind, absolutely the best university preparatory school in Canada. The school has a rich history and has produced alumni of the finest calibre. And for those who don't believe me (Or G2bambino in this case), you should go visit the school yourself. Because, yes, it really is that good. --Canadia 17:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral POV? 

message: I would like to suggest we delete the "Building Crisis" article. Only architectural historians would care about this extraordiarily niche write-up on UCC.
The "Athletics" section is a useless listing of sports in bullet form. I say we delete it. 
I think "Ethnic and Gender Issues" are far more significant than "Cadets", "Move" and "Norval." As such, I propose we move "Ethnic and Gender Issues" above "Cadets", "Move" and "Norval."
The "Scandals" section should be placed at the top of the "Today" section, not hidden away in a redundant "Recent Events" section. Magonaritus 03:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the building crisis was a fairly significant part of UCC's history - it's included in other historical accounts of the College.  As for the "Scandal" and "Ethnic and gender issues" sections, moving them to your proposed locations seems motivated by nothing more than a desire to degenerate the school as much as you can.  As opposed to your personal opinions about importance and redundancy, is there actually a justifiable reason to move anything? --G2bambino 16:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-Ordering Article 

message: Some of the allegations against individuals are shockingly unreferenced. The sections will be removed in accordance with Wikipedia policy if no sources are promptly forthcoming. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for scandals 

message: I was wondering: do you guys think that this article deserves to be one of Wikipedia's "Featured Articles?" --74.112.92.249 19:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It still has a number of citation needed tags that would definitely undermine any nomination. --G2bambino 17:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Article 

message: I've removed the 3O request, as it looks like it would be around a 6O at this point. If an agreement can't be reached, I would advise filing a request for comment (probably the "society, law, and sex" category), or going ahead with the proposal for mediation if everyone will participate. I would also encourage everyone to remember to comment on the content, not the contributor, there's no need to speculate on anyone's motives. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 01:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinion 

message: I will address each issue numerically:
# The Motto and Crest section should be merged into History of Upper Canada College, or even made into a separate article. Please follow the format similar to FAs like Cornell University and Duke University.
# Ethnic and gender issues should be merged into the history section. While they are necessary to understanding the going ons in the college, there needn't be a whole section on it. History doesn't need to entail 100-year-old accomplishments, it can be as recent as three months ago. A paragraph or two should suffice to cover this issue.
# I must emphasize the point of civility to Jonawiki and G2bambino, to which I need not give examples of incivility. I acknowledge the fact that keeping a cool head in such a hot environment is very hard (flashback), but I encourage the two of you to read WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:EW.
# Though unrelated, I noticed that there was a request for peer review. My utmost problem with this article is the number of sections that can be split away into articles. Please consider this option, as this article is very large and unwieldy. Look at the format for University FA's. bibliomaniac15 01:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.  I have attempted to address these recommendations. --G2bambino 17:17, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:3O|Third Opinion]] 

message: ::TO ALL: Please ignore the above paragraph "summary" written by G2bambino. It is transparently biased and replete with factual errors, mischaracterizations and half-truths. Instead, please refer to the extensive discussions found above at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Upper_Canada_College#G2bambino:_Stop_Hiding_UCC.27s_Dirty_Laundry. Thanks. Magonaritus 23:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In what ways do you think the statement of the RFC is unfair? futurebird 02:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the service issue, I removed not mandatory.  Service is required under the IB (granted the number of hours is pithy).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.134.139.13 (talk) 21:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other 

message: I've flagged several more examples of original research. I haven't tagged the article as a whole because they aren't serious flaws in the article and can easily be fixed, either by providing a source or deleting them. I think the NOR rules are too broad myself, but when you do something like assert that UCC has a "new environmental mindset" or that the Wernham Centre is the most comprehensive of its kind you need sources. John FitzGerald 14:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NOR 

message: "The Ontario Model Parliament' (OMP) is Canada's oldest and largest simulation of provincial parliament. ... The first OMP event took place in 1986."
This is not true, not even by a country mile. See :Category:Canadian youth parliaments for organizations dating back to 1912. Consider it changed. --24.79.241.243 02:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  OMP 

message: :Image:UCC Crest.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 10:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:UCC Crest.PNG 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Upper Canada College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20051104233359/http://www.ucc.on.ca:80/current%20times/CurrentTimes-200212.pdf to http://www1.ucc.on.ca/current%20times/CurrentTimes-200212.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Upper Canada College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100730051958/http://www.cbc.ca:80/lifeandtimes/black.html to http://www.cbc.ca/lifeandtimes/black.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Upper Canada College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "Palman qui meruit ferat" is the motto on the crest of Upper Canada College (UCC) and University of Southern California (USC).  Discrepancy exists between how each school translates the Latin phrase into English.  UCC translates it in the male gender pronoun and past tense as "Let he who merited the palm bear it."  USC translates it in both gender pronoun and present tense as, "Let whoever earns the palm bear it."
An edit to USC stating this discrepancy has been written by this author, who was a Seaton's House graduate in 1983.  I studied under a Latin Scholar, 1979 ,Terence Bredin. I would recommend that scholar be consulted to concur, reach consensus, or quorum among scholars as to the accurate English translation of the Latin phrase "Palman qui meruit ferat".
The author would also request a monetary honorarium for this effort to reach the correct English translation of each school's respective motto.
Author's email: reganfraser@yahoo.com
ReganFraser (talk) 19:51, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past or Present Tense in the English Translation of the Latin School Motto: Palman qui meruit ferat? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Upper Canada College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070930081406/http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM.20050701.wleacock0701%2FBNStory%2FNational%2F&ord=4581924&brand=theglobeandmail&redirect_reason=2&denial_reasons=none&force_login=false to http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM.20050701.wleacock0701%2FBNStory%2FNational%2F&ord=4581924&brand=theglobeandmail&redirect_reason=2&denial_reasons=none&force_login=false
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.pathcom.com/~jfitzg/oldboys_review_ted_schmidt.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ucc.on.ca/whyucc
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:56, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified