Talk:Mary Bauermeister

message: I have made a cautious amendment to the uncited claim that the global avant-garde art movement Fluxus was "initiated" by Mary Bauermeister in her Cologne studio. I could find a citation that she hosted relevant gatherings, but she is not acknowledged as a foundation member of the group in WP Fluxus or, eg, George Maciunas. She is mentioned at John Cage#Happenings & Fluxus but not in a way that credits her with initiating the movement. I'm not saying she wasn't a founder, simply that I don't know and am in need of some evidence. Of course, there is always a degree of controversy and conflict over the *initiation* and quasi *ownership* of significant cultural movements. It's therefore more than possible that the present text of Fluxus needs to be reworked on the understanding that this was/is a global movement, not just an American one. Incidentally, this is my own first knowledge of "Fluxus" per se, so I have no axe to grind. It does, however, slot in perfectly with corresponding artistic contacts I had in 1960s Sydney, eg, with Ubu Films Cheers Bjenks (talk) 14:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent call on this, Bjenks. I will see what I can find though, as you say, there is always a degree of controversy over initiation and ownership.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:49, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Fluxus was a name thought up by George Maciunas, originally in relation to Lithuanian culture in New York. When he moved to West Germany, he took  the name with him, along with the contacts he'd established whilst working on La Monte Young's Anthology of Chance, and organised the first Fluxus Festival in Wiesbaden, September 1962. Bauermeister isn't listed as a contributor on the posters for this event; she isn't mentioned in his correspondances organising it (he organised it primarily with Nam June Paik, Tomas Schmit, Alison Knowles, Dick Higgins and Emmett Williams); however in early 1962, Maciunas, on Paik's recommendation, contacted Bauermeister with the aim to hold a fundraising concert in her studio to help raise money for the projected magazine- see  I'm not sure if the planned event ever happened, but if it did I don't think it would make her a founding member. Stockhausen further complicates things, because Maciunas really hated him; Nam June Paik was later expelled from fluxus for performing with Stockhausen in 1965. As far as I can tell, fluxus was a bit like a record label bringing together a lot of people who were already moving in the same direction; some of Yoko Ono's stuff was published by Fluxus, other stuff wasn't; Maciunas accepted some of Dieter Roth's contributions, but rejected others. Some artists distanced themselves from it (notably Robert Morris and La Monte Young) whilst others embraced it. Fluxus-y things, of course, existed throughout the 20th century, from Picasso claiming a peeled apple as his new cubist sculpture onwards.Franciselliott (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Thanks, this all squares with what I had understood (and adds a lot of details I was not aware of). Certainly Mary Bauermeister could only be said, at best, to have helped set up the Cologne Fluxus establishment. Maciunas's hatred was directed at a lot of people besides Stockhausen—in fact, probably the majority of artists associated at one time or another with Fluxus. Apparently, he would abruptly send a postcard or short letter saying, in effect, "you're out, you traitor." One joke I heard was that he sent these out in such numbers and in always in such a fury that, one day, he accidentally sent one to himself.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. I put one in the article on maciunas;  To be fair to him, Stockhausen was WAY outside the remit of fluxus ideals to remove the artist's ego, to lessen the boundaries between performer and viewer, and to renounce making a living from art. From what I can make out, Bob Watts was about the only one who survived from the beginning to (Maciunas') end. There's an intriguing idea floating around Emmett Williams' reminiscences () that Fluxus split into 2 after Maciunas left Germany. It kept going as primarily performance based stuff in Europe, and became consumer-parody based (boxes) in America in parallel but separate developments. Not sure what to make of that. I think that would entail studying Beuys and Vostell quite closely. Fluxus suffers from generic simplifications, a bit like Dada. Articles on specific moments (like Yam festival, Fluxfestorum, etc,) are much needed.Franciselliott (talk) 10:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Excellent illustration! I'd never actually seen one of those cards before, only just heard them described (and I can't even remember from whom I heard those stories—possibly from Ligeti). You are absolutely right about Stockhausen who—as far as I am aware—was never part of Fluxus, though as you point out Paik and some other Fluxus and ex-Fluxus artists were involved in the Cologne and New York performances of Originale. In fact, I think the New York performances were regarded at the time as essentially a Fluxus event (since Allan Kaprow, who produced it, was still associated in peoples' minds with Fluxus, though he had disassociated himself from it already by that time), which perhaps explains in part why Harold C Schonberg assumed that the pickets outside the hall (who included Maciunas and Henry Flynt, not to mention Dick Higgins, who left the picket line in time to take his place inside as one of the performers!) were actually a part of the performance. But, then, if we are to take him at his word, and he actually attended the performance he reviewed, he must have slept through the evacuation order and the fumes causing it when, in that first-night performance, the Painter (Robert Delford Brown?) sabotaged the event by setting fire to a can of paint.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Stockhausen is listed in the first Fluxus Festspiele, Wiesbaden, Sepetember 1962, with Klavierstück IV performed by K Welin along with pieces by Ligeti, Koenig and Schnebel, as part of the 3rd concert, piano music from Europe, Sunday 2nd sept. By Paris, Dec 1962, he's no longer mentioned-although Ligeti still is- and the concerts read much more like core fluxus greatest hits including Brecht's drip music, Maciunas' olivetti, Paik's solo for violin and Brecht's exit. The poster for Dusseldorf, Feb 1963 still includes Raoul Hausmann Penderecki, Cardew and Ligeti, but again no reference to Stockhausen, who seems to have been excommunicated by now. The original proposal to Dr Weiler, Wiesbaden, reprinted in Mr Fluxus,  states putting on "several festivals of avant-garde music at several cities... we envision the program, hereby attached, for which we would obtain scores, composer's instructions, tapes, performers, electronic equipment..." This sounds like Maciunas is using Stockhausen's reputation as bait?? There are a lot of hints in Mr Fluxus of Flynt pushing Maciunas toward direct action, Brecht hitting the roof and threatening to quit, and Maciunas recanting... There was clearly a struggle between the two factions in the early stages of development. Stockhausen's concert in New York sems to have become the lightening rod that split the group in two.Franciselliott (talk) 13:25, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Interesting stuff. I was unaware of the inclusion of Klavierstück IV on the first Fluxus programme in 1962, but the chronology suddenly throws into relief something very pertinent to this discussion: Originale, the theatre piece that was to become the catalyst of division for Fluxus, was first produced in Cologne under Mary Bauermeister's patronage from 26 October to 6 November 1961 at the Theater am Dom, Cologne, with performers including (amongst others) Nam June Paik, David Tudor, Hans G Helms, and Bauermeister herself. This means that Bauermeister was already involved with Fluxus-like activities (and Originale, which drew a lot of hostile fire in the press at the time as well as pressure from within the Cologne arts-subsidy infrastrucure to close down the production, was merely the most ambitious of these) before Maciunas brought his travelling show to Germany the following year. "Official membership" is of course quite another matter, but knowing that they had got there first, without his help, cannot have made Maciunas' relations with the Stockhausen-Bauermeister-Helms Cologne group easy.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:25, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You should write a page about Originale. It would be very interesting to come at the whole early sixties scene from a different angle. (Three interesting interviews with Allan Kaprow, on the beginnings of (american) happenings are  and  and )Franciselliott (talk) 19:22, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

text: I shall put Originale on my "to do" list. Thanks for the Kaprow links.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:20, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fluxus]]