Talk:Religion in the Netherlands

message: This citation only goes to the home page, could someone please get the page - preferably with a translation? JASpencer (talk) 21:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic Mass Attendance 

message: According to an article by Hans Knippenberg the percentage of Catholics in the Netherlands was in the year 2000, 17% and protestants 16%
I have not looked into details for the reasons and causes of these very different data, but the article is not NPOV at all. Andries (talk) 19:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hans Knippenberg; very different data in 2000

message: I suggest that the photo of the LDS temple be deleted.  My reasoning is this:  the LDS church has only 9,000 members in a society of 16 million people.  Photographs are powerful; many readers skimming the article quickly (which are most "readers" on most topics; let's call them viewers) draw inferences from size of coverage (an entire paragraph with the same header font size as others) and the presence of photos.
LDS members are noteworthy for their proselytizing, which they are probably doing here on Wikipedia with aggressive displays.
This entry would benefit from more photos, and not less, but this one should go based on context.
Other opinions?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mislilac21 (talk • contribs) 02:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to remvove the pic. I had already shortened the section about the LDS some time ago. I do not consider the absence or presence of a pic a big deal. Andries (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

text: On second thoughts you are right. Mentioning/linking may be okay, but even a short treatment is too long in this main article for a church with only 9000 members or adherents. Andries (talk) 13:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  LDS - Mormon 

message: Currently, there is the following sentence in the section about the Catholic Church:
Fewer than 200,000 people, or 1.2% of the Dutch population, attends Mass on a given Sunday, according to the Catholic University of Nijmegen Institute for Ecclesiastical Statistics (KASKI) in their 2007 annual statistical update of the Dutch Catholic province,[9] 
I suppose this sentence refers to Catholic Masses. If that's the case it seems a bit strange to state the number of churchgoers as a fraction of the whole Dutch population (that is including atheists, agnostics, protestants, muslims ect). Usually such fractions refer to church members (which obviously makes much more sense). Gugganij (talk) 20:55, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic Church - mass attendance 

message: I think the Catholic decline does not take into accoutn the many unregistered Poles in the Netherlands who have come to the Netherlands since 2007. Because they are often unregistered this will not show in the official data. I do not have a reliable source that the catholic decline is exaggerated for this reason/cause. Andries (talk) 16:05, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic decline

message: many of the changes you've made today are not consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style as detailed here. Could you revert them or otherwise resore normal capitalisation? NebY (talk) 11:50, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of lower-case 

message: The cited work , Godsdienstige veranderingen
in Nederland, for the membership table in this article did not categorize by type (pp. 30–31). 
"Free Catholic Church in the Netherlands" is labeled in the table as a Free Catholic Church but, according to the nl:Vrij-katholieke Kerk article, it is a Liberal Catholic Church and according to http://www.vkk.nl/internationale_sites.htm it links to other Liberal Catholic Churches. According to references in Free Catholic Church article, the Free Catholic Church is(was?) affiliated with the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church. nl:Religie in Nederland contains updated 2014 figures through nl:Stichting Interkerkelijke Ledenadministratie that report that Vrij-Katholieke Kerk in Nederland has 440 members. The table contains figures that do not match the 2004 figures in the cited source and includes inadequately sourced figures from 2005 and 2006. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:56, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Membership table categories and figures 

message: I have fully protected the article for 2 days to stop the current edit warring. Come to the talk page and work it out. --MelanieN (talk) 18:57, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: We have I guess two different sources.  One is Bernts, Tom; Berghuijs, Joantine (2016). God in Nederland 1966-2015. Ten Have. .  And the other is the national statistics bureau, Schmeets, Hans (2014). De religieuze kaart van Nederland, 2010-2013 (PDF). Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek. p. 4. Retrieved 23 April 2015.  A question would be how did Bernts/Berghuijs get his information?  Is the book a reliable source and has the information been reliably extracted from the book. --Erp (talk) 05:13, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edit warring 

message: Regarding your edit, claiming that "the Old Catholic church also exists in this country, Roman is needed to avoid confusion." If you check Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands, it says it has 4,819 members, against 3,943,000 members of the Catholic Church in the Netherlands. Do you really think that ratio creates confusion to the ordinary reader about what is referred to by the Catholic Church in the Netherlands? Well, consensus for the title of the article says not. Now, reversely, for things pertaining to the Old Catholic Church, "Old" is a perfectly fine ambiguator. No confusion. A better argument for your case would be at hand, please. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that many of the sources use Roman Catholic not Catholic and we should be wary of changing source usage.  I also note that the Dutch Wikipedia uses "Rooms-Katholieke Kerk" as does at least some of the official church web pages in the Netherlands such as https://www.rkkerk.nl/.  "Catholic" is informal and possible cause of confusion which can be avoided by using "Roman Catholic".  Worldwide this is leaving aside that many Anglican  churches consider themselves part of the "Catholic church" as recited in the form of the Nicene Creed they use. Some lowercase "Catholic" some capitalize (and the Episcopal Church in the US seems to use both forms, see http://www.bcponline.org/; as does the Scottish Episcopal Church http://www.scotland.anglican.org/who-we-are/publications/liturgies/scottish-ordinal-1984/).  --Erp (talk) 01:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''"Roman is needed to avoid confusion"'' 

message: Hi, I noticed that in the article is not even mentioned the surveys made by the Statistics Netherlands. They intervew about 90.000 people each year to make updated statistics about the religious situation of the Nettherlands. I think that this data should be also in the lede and in the pie chart, since it's very reliable. Here it is the link for the latest avaible sources: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2016/51/helft-nederlanders-is-kerkelijk-of-religieus
For now, I will add it in the lede. ---FrankCesco26 (talk) 14:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the data 

message: The new line chat does not show 2014 and 2015 data because the Template:Line chart does not support more than 25 x parametres. I suggest to remove from the line chart the mid-decade data (1975, 1985, 1995) and 2000, and then remove 2010, 2011, 2013 and 2014, leaving only 1970, 1980, 1990, 2002, 2012 and 2015. This would make space for the most recent data.--Wddan (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be better to show new CBS data for every two years, so 2010, 2012, 2014 and the upcoming 2016. --FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:03, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: New line chart - December 2017

message: The following is the right interpretation of the data from the source:
* Rooms-katholiek (Roman Catholic): 23.7%
* Nederlands hervormd (Dutch Reformed): 6.5%
* Protestantse Kerk Nederland (Protestant Church of the Netherlands): 5.7%
* Anders (other): 5.7%
* Islam: 4.9%
* Gereformeerde kerken (other Reformed churches): 3.3%
--Wddan (talk) 15:10, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep in mind that the Dutch Reformed Church is non-existent, and so are the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands (Gereformeerde kerken). Both are now incoporated into the Protestant Church in the Netherlands. Someone who made these statistics was really high on pot or something and I question the reliability of these statistics.Ernio48 (talk) 18:33, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Those are data from Statistics Netherlands, not unreliable sources. The Dutch Reformed Church and the Reformed Churches are not "dead" but merged with the Protestant Church in the Netherlands. The statistical report in question treated the churches as separated, as they likely continue to have separate congregations. Indeed, summing the various % of Protestants the result is 15.5% which corresponds with the general Statistics Netherlands datum for Protestants. I can't find anywhere in the source the data you added: 9% for the PKN, and 5.7% for other Christians. --Wddan (talk) 22:04, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Explain why there are three different categories, one of them being the PKN? This makes no sense.Ernio48 (talk) 22:07, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It represents PKN congregations which existed before the merger. In other words, the large PKN (15.5%) is composed of three groups of congregations: PKN proper from before the merger, Nederlands hervormd and Gereformeerde kerken.--Wddan (talk) 22:11, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no PKN to speak of before 2004. So if 6.5% are congregations of the former Dutch Reformed Church that now belong to the PKN, 3.3% are congregations of the former Reformed Churches in the Netherlands that now belong to the PKN, what are these 5.7%? Lutherans? I don't think so. It is important to get the right interpretation of these statistics.Ernio48 (talk) 13:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect self-identification.  The groups may have merged but many people may still identify with the previous nomenclature and use it to identify themselves when asked.  I can point to the Religion in Scotland and  those who considered themselves Anglican (or belonging to an Anglican communion denomination) in the last census.  The majority listed themselves as Church of England even though that denomination does not exist in Scotland (the official Anglican denomination in Scotland is the Scottish Episcopal Church). --Erp (talk) 14:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not keeping all the Protestants together at 15.5% as it was before the latest edit?--Wddan (talk) 21:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We need a fluent Dutch reader to see what the source says (or even the material behind the source).  The 15.5% might well not include all Protestants.  For instance Baptists are probably under "others" as are Pentecostals and there are probably Reform and Lutheran splinters that aren't part of the main church which btw is why Protestantism in the Netherlands should not redirect to Protestant Church in the Netherlands.  It should either have its  own article or point back to the section on Protestantism in this article. --Erp (talk) 03:21, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There was the same case with Protestantism in Germany, which used to redirect to Evangelical Church in Germany. It was fixed. Someone should make something like that for the Netherlands.Ernio48 (talk) 22:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

text: I'm inclined to have the pie chart reflect the source and (a) note that this is self-identification not formal church membership reports; (b) display the stats for the 3 groups that now make up the PKN (but adjacent and in related shades) but note that legally they all belong to the same church, the PKN, since 2004.  I'm a bit concerned about using "Protestant" as a direct translation of "Protestantse" as the word might have a more restricted meaning in Dutch than in English (for instance it might not include Baptists, Pentecostals, Quakers, Anglicans [though the last two are almost certainly too small to affect anything]). Also where does the stats for Other Christian and Other religions come from; the source only has 5.7% for other as far as I can see.  --Erp (talk) 15:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. So, this version of mine would be the best rendition of the data.--Wddan (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be, but additional notes are a must for this.Ernio48 (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put up a new version of the pie chart with notes. I also changed the caption to Religious identification to reflect that this is self-identification not a count of those on the membership rolls. --Erp (talk) 05:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  15 February pie chart 

message: Unfortunately there is some large scale vandalisme ongoing. Especially the numbers of the PKN are being inflated. I will correct this Grsd (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: just to add, in the PKN statistische jaarbrieven (annual statistical overview) several totals are listed for membership. Some include the category OVERIG. These are not to be used, in this category members living abroad are for example included. PKN membership as per PKN church definitions is to be calculated as the addition of the two categories belijdende leden en doopleden. Grsd (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Text (in Dutch) from the 2013 jaarbrief In tabel 1 onderscheiden we drie groepen: belijdende leden, doopleden en overigen. De voorheen gebruikte term ‘overige leden’ voor de derde categorie zullen we niet meer gebruiken. Het betreft hen die wel zijn opgenomen in de ledenadministratie maar geen belijdenis hebben gedaan en niet zijn gedoopt. Volgens de kerkorde zijn zij daarom geen lid van de kerk.  Source: https://www.protestantsekerk.nl/download/CAwdEAwUUkNHWUM=&inline=0 ---Grsd (talk) 22:48, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Just see the following articles: Dutch Reformed Church and Reformed Churches in the Netherlands. The key word in the first sentence in each article is was, because these denominations do not exist anymore. Leaving NHK and GKN in the statistics is just causing confusion.Ernio48 (talk) 21:13, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Large scale vandalisme 

message: Hi, the source CBS lists as "Andere" the religious followers that aren't members of the Catholic Church, the PKN, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and Hinduism so it clearly leaves only other Christian denominations , like the Eastern Orthodox Christians, other Protestants outside the PKN or Mormons and Jehova's Witnessess and as well members of minor and irrilevant religions. So the majority of this part is made up of Christians, including followers of minor religions. I'm seeking consensous because the problematic user Wddan always tries to make edit wars and I'd like to avoid it.
So the pie chart should be as the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religion_in_the_Netherlands&oldid=836937036
As the main contributors to the article, Ernio48, Erp, JimRenge and Grsd I'd like to know your opinion. FrankCesco26 (talk) 14:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need some clarification.  My guess is the discussion is on the 4.5% and what the legend and/or notes should state. Currently the legend has "Other Christians and other minor religions" with a footnote stating "Including other Protestants that are not members of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands" but previous versions also had "Other religions/Christians", and "Other religions" with a footnote saying "Possibly including other Christian denominations".  I suggest two changes. First "geen" which is translated as Irreligious should probably be "none" (possibly linked to irreligious). Second "andere gezindte" should be translated as "other denomination".  This adheres closely to what the source uses (note "none" in this survey could well mean people who consider themselves religious but not affiliated with any denomination). The word "denomination" should be a clear hint that the 4.5% does include Christians who aren't affiliated with the other listed Christian denominations and a note can cite another source that describes some of the minor religions in the country (btw this includes Old Catholics who aren't exactly Protestant) or the reader may gather it from the religions/denominations discussed in the article that aren't in the pie chart.--Erp (talk) 15:47, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Erp. We should translate what the source says.  JimRenge (talk) 16:33, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Regarding the section, we should restore the precedent version of the pie with the right translation. Instead of other christians, it should be "other Christian denominations" and instead of "Irreligious", which is strictly legated to religious beliefs rather than religious affiliation, it should be "Unaffiliated". As for the demography of religions other than Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, the dutch version of the article includes data for the Sikhism and for the Baha'i which respectively count 12.000 and 1.300 adherents, that is around the 0.08% of the total Dutch population as per the 2001: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religie_in_Nederland#Statistieken:_ledenregistratie . We have two options: remove the 0.1% from "other Christian denominations" and adding an other section for "other religions" or simply leaving them together with the other christians and specifying that there are other minor religions.  FrankCesco26 (talk) 09:17, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: , actually, Schmeets (De Religieuze kaart) at p. 5 has andere gezindte, which means "other convictions". It is not clear whether they are Christian denominations or other non-Christian religions. If it had andere denominatie and the row was located just after those of the major Christian groups, it would have been clearer that it referred to Christian denominations.--Wddan (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: , so where do you think the Old Catholics, Baptists, Mennonites, and Mormons among others are?  I'm dropping note b.  BTW the list of religions at the end of the article lists quite a few without any supporting evidence or a link to a relevant article. --Erp (talk) 04:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: They are obviously in that category, but I suspect they represent an extremely small %, so it is not for us to determine that they form the majority of that 4.6%. The current version, to me, is the best possible rendition of what the source says.--Wddan (talk) 14:51, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

text: , all of these religious groups are in the "Andere gezindte" section, and I've found this publication from the dutch article ( https://web.archive.org/web/20140103140527/https://www.wrr.nl/fileadmin/nl/publicaties/PDF-verkenningen/Geloven_in_het_publieke_domein.pdf ) referring to figures of the end of 2005 including data for the other christian denomination than Catholic Church and the Protestant Church of the Netherlands. At page 92 you can see a detailed table with every christian denominations. At the end of 2005 there were 782.000 other christians, representing the 4.8% out of a population of 16.350.000 of 2006. There source for both the Baha'i and the Sikh is a publication by Piet Bakker from 2002.FrankCesco26 (talk) 09:01, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The CBS definition of "andere" or "overige gezindte" means "other" , there is on the CBS website no subdivision available for the 2015 number in subcategories. Above listed WRR report is referring to numbers for 2005 not 2015 and also WRR did not (fully) comply with CBS definitions. A translation to "other" or something similar is fine by me. Adding a subdivision of this "other" category not based on the source is I think highly problematic.  Grsd (talk) 12:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, is is not for us to determine the subdivision of that 4.6%, especially on the base of largely outdated 2005 data.--Wddan (talk) 14:51, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other religion section 

message: In my opinion the section "tendencies" should be integrated in the section "history" since they are redundant, and both should be trimmed.--Wddan (talk) 15:05, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No, they are unrelated. Tendencies section of course shows demographic tendencies, while history means the religion in the Netherlands in a socio-political and cultural background.FrankCesco26 (talk) 11:31, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Integrate section "tendencies" into "history" 

message: Of course not: "Het christendom is onderverdeeld in vijf aparte stromingen, namelijk rooms-katholiek, protestants, Nederlands hervormd, gereformeerd en de in 2004 opgerichte Protestantse Kerk in Nederland. Bij elkaar opgeteld vormen ze een groter percentage van de Amsterdamse bevolking dan de islam. " 
Or in English:
"Christianity is divided in 5 denominations, namely Roman-catholic, Protestant, Dutch reformed, Reformed and the 'Protestant church in the Netherlands', which was established in 2004. Combined they make up a larger percentage of the population of Amsterdam than muslims do."
Parool, 22 december 2016 
All muslims taken together in Amsterdam are just 0,1% larger than only the Catholics... And then you still have those other 4 Christian denominations.NeoRetro (talk) 17:24, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Religions in Amsterdam according to OIS: Christianity 17%, Islam 13%. According to CBS: Christianity 17, 2%, Islam 11,4% Republiek Allochtonie, 20 November 2017 NeoRetro (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are muslims the largest religious group in Amsterdam? 

message: I propose moving relevant portions of this article to Irreligion in the Netherlands, particularly the relevant portions of the section Modern era: secularization, decline of Christianity, and growth of religious minorities. This article should provide a brief overview of the topic, while more specific detail should be moved. The subsection Humanism should also be moved, with this article retaining a brief summary. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section move proposal