Talk:Opt-outs in the European Union

message: I think Sweden shouldn't be marked on the map, it is misleading. They have defacto yes but shouldn't be listed the same as the others. Also perhaps as the map is very simple, it could incicate more clearly the types of opt outs or numbers? - J Logan t: 08:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, I'll indicate Sweden differently; however, I don't think we need to convey much more information as regards the numbers. —Nightstallion 08:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Although I'm actually having second thoughts about Sweden as a whole, it isn't actualy an opt out, its just a political situation. An opt out would have to be formal legally speaking? - J Logan t: 16:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, their refusal to join the euro de facto constitutes an opt-out from ERM III -- and both the European Council and the ECB have stated they will accept this behaviour for now, thus legalising this opt-out de facto... —Nightstallion 16:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Not really a formal opt-out, I'd say. —Nightstallion 18:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sweden

message: Edinburgh Agreement could easily be merged in here, it would help indivudal sections develop to include this detail. - J Logan t: 08:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mh, I'm not sure I agree. The Agreement is an actual document and should have its own article. —Nightstallion 08:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a small agreement, and if you want to be technical the text ought to be on Wikisource. - J Logan t: 16:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think it's worth its own article (BTW, the article doesn't contain the whole text...) —Nightstallion 16:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: This section is currently POV. This is obviously a controversial issue. Jim Murphy, the British minister, has stated in a letter to European Scrutiny Commission that: "The UK-specific Protocol which the Government secured is not an “opt-out” from the Charter. Rather, the Protocol clarifies the effect the Charter will have in the UK. The UK Protocol confirms that nothing in the Charter extends the ability of any court to strike down UK law. In particular, the social and economic provisions of Title IV of the Charter give people no greater rights than are given in UK law. Any Charter rights referring to national law and practice will have the same limitations as those rights in national law. The Protocol confirms that since the Charter creates no rights, or circumstances in which those rights can
be relied upon before the courts, it does not change the status quo." (Letter from Mr Jim Murphy MP, Minister for Europe, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, to the Chairman of the Committee, 31 July 2007) Intangible2.0 20:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Show me a single media reference which does *not* treat it as an opt-out. Denmark's fourth opt-out does nothing in practice, as well -- if you insist, we can mark the opt-out for the UK from the Charter as "i" in the table. —Nightstallion 21:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Just read your comment at Talk:Reform_Treaty#Charter_of_Fundamental_Rights; fair enough, I'll add the Guardian source that this opt-out may not do anything in practice. —Nightstallion 21:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: There you go. Is this addition good enough for you? —Nightstallion 21:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is going on with Poland? The Charter was already becoming legally binding there. That does not change the opt-out Poland got via Protocol No. 7, does it? Intangible2.0 16:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tusk has stated that his government will rescind the protocol and that it will fully apply the Charter in Poland. Good news for Europe, the Polish election.  —Nightstallion 18:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reform Treaty 

message: This article has quite a lot of problems:
*Lead does not comply with WP:LEAD. It is one sentence, doesnt explain what the article is and it is hard to understand for a person outside of the EU because there is not a lot of general info. Also having dot points and flag icons in the lead is inappropriate.
*Dot points in the Danish section should be prosified
*Subheadings should not be linked in blue and bolded.
*Comprehensiveness. The dealing and conditions for the countries in question led to quite a deal of debate among the member countries, among their domestic consituency and the relations with other countries. The background of these negotiations and horsetrading should be dealt with in a more comprehensive manner. There also needs to be more background to the EU joint ventures and so forth so that it is easier to understand.
Best regards, Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 08:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, thanks! I'll work on it. —Nightstallion 15:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes to the first three. As for the fourth one, probably an EU resident would be able to evaluate the end product. I tend to not do repeated GA assessments anyway. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 23:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, thanks! —Nightstallion 17:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed GA 

message: The table is not accessible to people with red-green color blindness. -- Beland (talk) 05:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mh, you're right. Any suggestions as to what we should do with it, then? —Nightstallion 13:12, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Replace it with one we can have the green to blue? It would also fit with the map then. Or can we change the yes no code used?- J Logan t: 12:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, per JLogan's suggestion I've changed it to blue. —Nightstallion 12:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table 

message: What exactly do you dislike about the way it's currently organised? I think it's okay... —Nightstallion 12:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, most of them are current and it won't be long until the few future ones are also current. "Additional" Danish deals with all of them - also as a theme, not just the others, with EMU mainly talking about the UK situation with only a side mention of Denmark. The other changes were in response to those. Poinbt is, there is way too much overlap, it doesn't seem clear. It should be listed by country or opt-out, right now it is both.- J Logan t: 13:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mh. You've got a point there. Is it okay if I rework it along the lines of your proposed changes, but the way I'd prefer to word it? —Nightstallion 23:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

text: What do you think of the changes I made? Good enough? —Nightstallion 00:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, still doesn't seem overly clear who has what at a glance, but hopefully they'll be more than glancing. Good now though, and the table looks nice too.- J Logan t: 17:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks for your input! —Nightstallion 16:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Structure

message: Sweden has an opt-out from the snus ban. Should Sweden be listed as having an opt-out because of this? (212.247.11.155 (talk) 10:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not really an opt-out. —Nightstallion 10:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It says: "However, occasionally member states negotiate certain opt-outs from legislation or treaties of the European Union, meaning they do not participate in the common structure in these fields", which seems to fit with the snus ban: Sweden doesn't participate in the "common structure" of "this field", i.e. the Swedish police and government don't prevent factories from manufacturing snus, or shops to sell it. (212.247.11.155 (talk) 21:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not a common structure, that's simply a minor footnote to an unimportant directive. If you find more of these minor things, we could introduce a small section on minor opt-outs like that, but on its own, the snus exemption is irrelevant. —Nightstallion 09:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps if we make the division as legislative and treaty? Legislation is full of opt-outs, that is its nature. These are important as they are major parts of the EU's structure and functioning - the decision making process. So lets just say treaty opt-outs (or related to them to cover Sweden on the euro)- J Logan t: 10:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mh. Fair enough, so if we find enough info, we could make a section on legislative opt-outs. —Nightstallion 17:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What defines an opt-out? 

message: Map error: Bornholm should be red instead of purple.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.11.156 (talk) 15:53, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, thanks. —Nightstallion 18:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bornholm has the wrong colour 

message: The European Council has taken the decision to add Czech Republic to the protocol for UK/Poland opt-out. To be added with the next accession treaty . See also the Ireland-clarifications declaration from 2008  (not a opt-out, but likely to be included with the same accession treaty). Alinor (talk) 20:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a section about this to the "future opt-outs" section. (212.247.11.156 (talk) 10:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

text: That's something different: They have not yet introduced the euro, but they didn't opt out from it. They have yet to fulfill the criteria, that's all. —Nightstallion 18:14, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Czech Charter opt-out 

message: I am pretty certain the UK and Ireland have an opt-out regarding the whole former Justice and Home Affairs pillar, and not only the PJCC remnant that was left after Amsterdam. As far as I know, the whole issue has nothing to do with to qualified majority voting in PJCCM. Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 22:47, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you happen to have a source? —Nightstallion 19:28, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Also Denmark has a complete JHA opt-out. It is widely known that Denmarkt participates in the Dublin and EURODAC Regulations on a bilateral basis, like Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein, and Switzerland. As for the rest, Denmark does not participate in any JHA legislation. Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 12:30, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  PJCCM should be Justice and Home Affairs for UK and Ireland 

message: Sweden doesn't have any opt-out, neither de jure nor de facto. In accordance with the treaties, Sweden has a derogation from the euro participation because it does not fullfill the convergence criteria just like Poland, Lithuania, Hungary etc. This is a transitional provision (article 139(1) TFEU), which will cease to exist when Sweden eventually fullfills the criteria. This is the same situation as for example the Czech Republic and Hungary. All since the Swedish referendum on the euro adoption, which resulted in a "no", its governments have deliberately failed to fullfill the convergence critera. But also the governments of the Czech Republic and Hungary are reluctant to adopt the euro. That does not mean that they have any opt-out, neither de jure nor de facto. In principle there are no differences between the Czech/Hungarian situations and the Swedish. So, Sweden should be removed from this article (or should all member states outside the eurozone be included). --Glentamara (talk) 21:43, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The situation is different because Sweden is, as you said, deliberately failing a single criterion of their own choosing, and there has even been talk of forcing Sweden to adopt the euro (though the discussion ended quickly). —Nightstallion 10:25, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: But neither the Hungarian government nor the Czech government are striving for adopting the euro, so why don't you call this for "de facto opt-outs"? Just because the Swedish government deliberately fails to meet the criteria, it doesn't mean that Sweden has an opt-out. Sweden has acted entirely in accordance with the treaties. It would have been another situation if Sweden actually fullfilled the criteria, without joining the eurozone. That would not be compatible with the treaties, and if that was accepted by for instance the Commission, then one could call it a "de facto opt-out". --Glentamara (talk) 10:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

text: @Nightstallion: So why did you remove the paragraph I added here discussing how the Czech Republic was contemplating either negotiating an official opt out of the EMU or following Sweden's lead by intentionally not fulfilling the criteria.  I'm not opposed to mentioning de facto opt outs, but we should be consistent and mention the Czech (and possibly Hungarian) situations as well.  TDL (talk) 16:52, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Because Czechia and Hungary are given some leniency in fulfilling the criteria; they have not directly stated that they are intentionally not adopting the euro in the long term, just that they are delaying it further in the short term. That's part of the difference. —Nightstallion 14:42, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm? But the Swedish government hasn't stated that Sweden is intentionally not adopting the euro in the long term. The Swedish government has just stated that Sweden won't adopt the euro until the Swedish people votes in favour of adoption in a second referendum on the euro. (Stefan2 (talk) 21:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sweden has no "de facto opt-out" 

message: The two colours (not the red) used in the table near the bottom and the image on the top right corner of this article are not very easy for some to differentiate, especially those of us who are colour-blind. Perhaps someone can edit them, I would if I could... 119.235.86.3 (talk) 10:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not colour-blind friendly 

message: Schengen treaty is legally not part of EU law, since there are non-EU states participating in
this treaty: Norway,Iceland,Liechtenstein,Switzerland
Can anybody update this in article ?
Siyac 05:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's wrong. It's part of EU law, but external states can participate. —Nightstallion 14:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

text: It was integrated into the EU law by the Treaty of Amsterdam. --Glentamara (talk) 15:10, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schengen treaty 

message: It's been three years since it was discussed and Sweden is still mentioned in this article ?!? And why is there a need for discussion at all ?!?
All EU member states not participating in ERM 2 have got a de facto opt-out. There is nothing special about Sweden. Simple as that.
So remove Sweden or add BG, HR, CZ, HU, PL, and RO. Knisfo (talk) 07:56, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I would strongly agree. Moreover as far as I can see whenever it's been discussed the conclusion has been the same: there's no such thing as a de facto opt-out. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 11:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  It might be worth mentioning in passing, but it's not an "opt-out".  TDL (talk) 17:34, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "de facto" opt-out 

message: I'm not sure that the Danish citizenship clause really constitutes an opt-out from the EU treaties.
*For one, the clause was contained in a Decision of Council and was never annexed to the treaties.  Looking through :wikisource:Consolidated_protocols,_annexes_and_declarations_attached_to_the_treaties_of_the_European_Union/Protocols, the only mention that I can find is in the preamble: "HAVING NOTED the position of Denmark with regard to Citizenship, Economic and Monetary Union, Defence Policy and Justice and Home Affairs as laid down in the Edinburgh Decision".
*Secondly, the wording ("The provisions of Part Two of the Treaty establishing the European Community relating to citizenship of the Union give nationals of the Member States additional rights and protection as specified in that Part. They do not in any way take the place of national citizenship. The question whether an individual possesses the nationality of a Member State will be settled solely by reference to the national law of the Member State concerned.") really doesn't sound like an opt-out, but more like a legal guarantee.  It makes no mention of a different applicability to Denmark (although the entire Decision does "apply exclusively to Denmark and not to other existing or acceding Member States").
*Thirdly, the Irish guarantee contains quite similar language (ie "Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation.") and in fact contains much stronger provisions impacting the applicability of the treaties exclusively to Ireland ("Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1, 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.")
I know that sources do describe the Danish citizenship provisions as an opt-out, but they do so as well with the Irish provisions: .  This describes the significance of Danish citizenship provisions as "limited" and says they are "little more than a clarification of the treaty".
For consistency, I think we either need to include the Irish provisions, or drop the Danish citizenship provisions.  Perhaps the best approach is to have a separate section on "legal guarantees".  What do others think?  TDL (talk) 02:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Danish citizenship

message: Regarding the table in the end of the article, shouldn't we write out that Denmark participates in the Schengen agreement on an intergovernmental basis, and not on a supragovernmental basis like other member states do?
I also propose that "(opt-in)" is added for the UK and Ireland when it comes to the Schengen agreement, since these two countries can opt-in into parts of the Schengen acquis, just like they can when it comes to other policy areas in the area of freedom, security and justice. --Glentamara (talk) 07:39, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I've gone ahead and added some text as well as included this in the table.  TDL (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks! --Glentamara (talk) 06:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schengen 

message: According to a declaration attached to the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish government intended to review its opt-out from the area of freedom, security and justice within three years of the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon. Does anyone know if the Irish government (or parliament) has adopted any report reviewing the opt-out? --Glentamara (talk) 08:24, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ireland and AFSJ 

message: What do others think about this recent change which lists the UK and Poland as having "NO" opt-out from the Charter.  There is certainly legal debate about the effect of the Protocol (see for example ) but I'm not convinced it has been conclusively resolved that the Protocol has no effect.
If we are not going to list these provisions as an opt-out, obviously it needs to be done consistently throughout the article (ie sectioning and the map).  Should we move these charter provisions to the legal guarantees section?  TDL (talk) 04:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charter 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Unclear sentence...
"This allows them to opt-in or out of legislation and legislative initiatives on a case-by-case basis, which they usually do, except on matters related to Schengen."
Since opting-in or opting-out are the only two possibilities, telling us that they "usually" opt-in or opt-out tells us nothing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.119.204.117 (talk) 16:05, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opt-in or opt-out? Yes. 

message: What is said about EMU in the article, is actually concerning the introduction of the euro, which is just a subset of EMU. I would therefore suggest that we replace "Economic and Monetary Union" by "Introduction of the euro" in, e.g., titles and tables. Denmark participates fully in the EMU otherwise, just like the other non-euro EU countries. --Glentamara (talk) 08:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, didn't see this conversation before making my edits.  That also applies to other policy areas (ie Ireland does participate in parts of Schengen).  I just took those the be the high level policy areas within which the state has an opt-out, not that the opt-out covers the entire policy area.  TDL (talk) 23:28, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  EMU