Talk:Augusto Pinochet/Archive 3

message: Is the assertion of U.S. backing for the coup misleading or controversial in Augusto Pinochet/intro (succinct version), even in the presence of the footnote?
:This is loaded phrasing. I do not consider it misleading, but the simple fact that this discussion is taking place is proof that it is controversial. Eclecticology 17:07, 2004 May 19 (UTC)
::Ec, this is asking whether or not the assertion is controversial, as opposed to an undisputable fact, not whether U.S. actions were 'controversial'. 172
[IMO "even in the presence of a footnote" should not be in the question, because some of us do not want a footnote even if we think it goes some way towards clearing up the NPOV issue. Cadr ]
:::AFAIC, this shouldnt be considered "controversial." -Stevertigo 03:34, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Another poll

message: All this talk of settling the editing issues by polling and declaring "winners" is silly. As Michael pointed out (more politely!), that's not what polls are for. Well, I'm telling you that the official policy of this website is NPOV.
If a fact or value (or anything else important) is in dispute in an article, the Wikipedia is not supposed to settle the issue. Rather, it REPORTS WHAT THE VARIOUS SIDES SAY. Sorry for shouting, but some contributors on this page just don't get it.
Including a phrase like "US-backed coup" implies that Wikipedia endorses the view that the coup was backed by the US (whatever that means or entails). Since there is CLEARLY a dispute among us contributors about whether (or how much) the US "backed the coup", the Wikipedia cannot come out and say flatly that the US backed the coup.
Rather, the article must report what various historians and other observers have said. I'd be happy to see something like:
*All historians, except for a few right-wing wackos, agree that the US backed the coup.
(Okay, wackos is a bit extreme, but you know what I mean: we attribute every point of view (POV) to the advocated of that POV.)
It might be a bit more polished to say:
*Historians and others disagree over how much support the US gave to Pinochet. Joe Schmoe says the US "backed the coup by supplying arms, intelligence, money, and assurances of friendly future relations." Sam Shady, a known CIA operative, claims that the US had no part in the coup, aside from making public statements amounting to a claim that Allende was destroying the Chilean economy and driving the country toward dictatorship. (Note that these are made-up examples of the kinds of quotations we need to find and put into the article, so that all POV is properly attributed.) --Uncle Ed 14:06, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't be silly

message: * I read quite a bit about Pinochet, Allende and Chile's economy in the 60s and 70s (and not just "opinions" but economic data and scientific analysis). People who say I have "visibly no understanding" and vote "ideologically" just because I happen not to agree with them, are making a productive discussion hard.
**VV The "no understanding" was in reference to being aware of what we had been talking about on this Talk page.
* I am not "buddy of 172", random or otherwise, nor was I "brought in" by him. Saying so without verification or proof reflects quite negatively on VeryVerily's way of argumentation in my opinion. If I understood the principles of Wikipedia correctly, everyone knowledgeable can try to contribute to the discussion...
**VV I did not say this. I said that some were buddies of 172, and they were. You are falling for 172 smear tricks. VV 09:24, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with all of the above particulars, if not the conclusion. Sam [Spade] 04:23, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks, revert wars and ideological bias

message: I think this discussion will go significantly better, if we avoid making personal remarks. We need all our energy focussed on working together. So let's not say to each other things like:
*How long do you plan to fight ... You have so much time to lose?
*His interpretation of the vote ... continuous avoidance ... failed to respond ... seriously undermining his position
*You yourself have admitted
*If you decide to make more and more enemies ... paving the road toward your own banning.
*He fell for it ... sleaze ... smear tricks
*They were his buddies
I could quote more, but I think you see the trend. None of this has anything to do with the article. So I propose to refactor this page, deleting all the personal remarks. --Uncle Ed 20:50, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's not attack each other

message: After mailing list discussion, I hope calm will prevail. Here is the most controversial part (disputed at least among Wikipedians):
:He was one of the leaders of a United States-backed coup that deposed the socialist government of Salvador Allende in 1973. (bold word is disputed)
Why not mention in the article why various historians, politicians, etc. call the 1973 coup "US-backed"? And explain what they mean by this?
If an historian says that the coup would certainly have failed without US support, that sounds like an excellent reason for that historian to say that the US "backed" the coup, and it would make sense for him to refer to it as a "US-backed" coup. The overthrow of Saddam was undoubtedly "US-backed", although "US-led" is an even better term.
I will support any addition to the article in which the term "US-backed" is supported by either (1) a source who applies the term or (2) some reasoning mentioned in the article. For example:
* Historian Felix Z. Gatto called the coup "US-backed" because the US supplied money, arms, intelligence, etc.; or,
* US backing for the coup included supplies of X and promises of Y by Nixon and Kissinger; or even,
* Despite official CIA denials of having "backed" the coup, historians generally consider US intervention as having been crucial to the coup's success.
In any case, I'd like to see a paragraph about the "backing" thing put into the article and remain STABLE for several days before somebody tackles the thorny task of editing the intro paragraph. I think we should omit any mention of things which we, the writers of this article, are disputing amongst ourselves, until we agree upon how the main body of the article should be written.
Well, see you all again Monday. Whatever you all decide, I won't be editing or toggling the "protection" switch again until then! --Uncle Ed 20:30, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotected

message: I have created a 350-word article at Chilean coup of 1973 which I hope will help to mitigate the intensity of the dispute over the Augusto Pinochet article. Almost everything we Wikipedians have been wrangling over is directly related to the coup, so I feel it merits a separate article.
After the dispute is settled to our mutual satisfaction, we can see whether it will best to leave the new article intact or merge it back into History of Chile or Salvador Allende or Augusto Pinochet.
In the nearly three years I've volunteered at Wikipedia, I've found that splitting off the disputed part of an article is the quickest and easiest way to settle a dispute. (Sometimes, the info is re-integrated, sometimes not. But it always has helped resolve the dispute. --Uncle Ed 14:15, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy over the 1973 coup

message: :
:General Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte (born November 25, 1915) was leader of Chile from 1973 to 1990. He came to power in a military coup d'état that overthrew the government led by the elected socialist President Salvador Allende. Pinochet's government passed a new constitution with several reforms in 1980. After he lost a plebiscite in 1988, multicandidate presidential elections were held which restored civilian rule in 1990. He retained his post as commander of the army until 1998 and assumed a lifelong seat in the Chilean Senate, a title that brought with it immunity from prosecution that could only be stripped by high courts.
:Pinochet remains a controversial figure. Some regard him as a great modernizer who staved off communism and rescued a faltering economy (the "Miracle of Chile"), while others regard him as a brutal military dictator responsible for severe human rights violations and social decay. The United States has been criticized for lending support to Pinochet's government as part of its Cold War policy and has been implicated in backing the 1973 coup.
:Pinochet was arrested in 1998 during a visit to London and charged with international human rights crimes. After a failed attempt to extradite him to Spain, he was returned to Chile in 2002 where the charges were dropped due to medical reasons.
Support:
#AquaRichy 07:37, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Version 1

message: ::Image:pinochetjunta.jpg
:General Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte (born November 25, 1915) was Chile's de facto head of state from 1973 to 1990. He came to power in a U.S.-backed military coup d'état which overthrew the democratically elected government of socialist president Salvador Allende. After he lost a plebiscite in 1988, multicandidate presidential elections were held which restored civilian rule in 1990. He retained his post as commander of the army until 1998 and assumed a lifelong seat in the Chilean Senate, a title that brought with it immunity from prosecution.
:Pinochet's government was responsible for severe human rights violations, particularly the murder, torture and "disappearance" of hundreds of suspected dissidents. His supporters credit him with what they call the "Miracle of Chile," a long period of economic growth brought about by neoliberal market policies; however, both unemployment and poverty rose dramatically during Pinochet's rule.
Support:
#Cantus 17:36, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Version 3

message: VV This conversation is being spread too thin and confusingly, and the excellent arguments made by me, Cadr, AstroNomer, and JamesMLane about the problems with backing are being lost in the shuffle. Since there are still many who seek to dismiss the several objectors and state a very non-consensus assertion, it is worth reiterating the primary arguments against U.S.-backed:
# It is not accurate. There is no proof the US was still seeking a coup, and abundant evidence they were not seeking this particular coup. Thus, saying this coup was "backed" by the US is wrong. The CIA only became aware of the plot just before it occured. Neither other opposition to Allende nor unrelated and abandoned pursuits of different coups three years earlier are on point.
# It is ambiguous. Many who read it will take it to mean the US directly organized or instigated this coup. Three English speakers have reported that that is their reaction to the text, "dictionary definitions" or no. (The problems with the footnote approach - saying in a disjoint way what could well be said with a few choice words in the intro - are well-established.)
# Even if the US's feeble connection could be considered "backing", the prime positioning of U.S. in the article is deceptive and implies importance it does not possess. Why mention the US and not more important elements, say, "backed" by other elements of the Chilean military? Backed by the Chilean Congress? Backed by Pinochet's wife? Based on the bizarre connections given, we could as well speak of Bush's Dennis Miller-backed election victory in an intro to George W. Bush. The front-and-center placement implies a falsehood, that the US was the factor.
As for the "new" documents, I will summarize my arguments here:
# Kissinger said the US helped create conditions for the coup. That is not new information. I could have told you that. He is not reporting on a secret CIA operation, he is not giving clandestine information, he is stating a believed cause-and-effect relationship between publically known actions by the US in isolating Allende and the subsequent coup. There is just no revelation here.
# At any rate, he is merely stating his own opinion. While he may possess extensive knowledge of Chile, his speculation that the US's role made a difference might be wrong; Allende's actions might have provoked a coup anyway. Again, he is not communicating anything "secret".
# The most ironic thing about this is that, despite the "spins" above, the new documents disprove the old canard about the US being behind the coup! Several users (including Eloquence) have stated that the US probably did organize or stage this coup. Unless you believe Kissinger was lying to the president, him saying the US "didn't do it" puts these accusations to rest once and for all.
I hope this helps. (Note that these are independent of the issue of 172's bullying on this page, which is also a major point with me.) VV 22:31, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that the new documents are exculpatory. Kissinger might indeed have been lying to Nixon, or the CIA might have been lying to Kissinger about what it was doing. The most likely interpretation, though, is that Kissinger and Nixon both understood that they were talking about the public perception: "We didn't send in the USAF to do the bombing, so there's at least some level at which we can claim that we didn't do it, and what we did do was sufficiently covert that it will never come to light to embarrass us." The conversation would be consistent with a fairly substantial U.S. role in backing the coup, such as explicitly urging the military to act. JamesMLane 23:53, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't think these interpretations are likely, but, to stay on topic, the documents certainly do not prove backing. VV 00:25, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

text: It's becoming increasingly clear that the extent of US support for the coup is a matter for historians to discuss, not Wikipedians. I think given the controversy over the interpretation of the available evidence, it would be far better to summarise the various POVs wrt. this evidence in the intro that it would be to flatly (and ambiguously) assert US-backing. The article has an enormous section on the coup, so the reader will be perfectly well equipped to decide for themselves which POV is correct. It's always a bad sign when you start having a debate over historical truth in Wikipedia, because it's not the aim of Wikipedia articles or talk pages to decide which of several versions of history is true. Cadr 11:16, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review of 'backing' arguments 

message: To the editor/controller of this discussion: I have tried several times to eliminate POVs and FACTUAL mistakes from this page, in order to bring it in line with a more objective and unbiased biography of the subject. I have been working my way slowly down the paragraphs, trying to correct only when unavoidable, even letting some minor POVs pass unchanged. But I have been foiled time and again. Without condoning or endorsing any subjective point of view, facts cannot be altered to suit one's own personal views on a subject. Why do you allow this person to hijack the historical subject? He in good faith or otherwise alters the facts. 
An small tidbit by way of example: he charges that Pinochet devised the title Capitan General out of emulation for the figure of Libertador O'Higgins. In fact, O'Higgins himself hardly used such title, preferring the much simpler of General or Director Supremo. The title was in fact used by the colonial authorities that were at the same time governors of the realm and titular heads of the army. (Chile was a Capitanía General, by the way), and Pinochet used it with the same sense, and in order to place himself on a higher rank than the other generals. The title, by the way, still exists under Chilean legislation, but the official rule is that it can only be granted to an active General that is at the same time President of the Republic and Commander-in-Chief of the army.  
Another example, this person charges Pinochet with "devising flashy uniforms" for his use and that of his generals. The comment almost doesn't merit a disclaimer. If he had taken the time to look at the pictures of General Prats (Pinochet's predecessor in the army) on parade uniform, standing next to president Allende, he would see that he is wearing the exact same uniform. And of course, if he keeps on digging, he will find the same exact case all the way back to the 1930s. The last modification of parade uniforms in the army took place around the time of world war II, in order to eliminate some of the more obvious similitudes with the German ones.
This are just two of the most glaring examples out of many that could be pointed. The section on the economy during the years 1970-1990 is so wrong as to be beyond belief. On the Pinochet Presidency, if one reads it without any other knowledge on recent Chilean history, the unwary reader would get the impression that Pinochet used to sit all day making lists of people to whom torture and murder should be applied, while the country went into hybernation for 17 years. 
This person seems to have just lightly scanned newspaper compilations and anti-Pinochet sites in order to construct his own version of History.  The man (Pinochet) was no saint (nowadays I doubt if he is able to notice much, that's why I don't use the present), and in fact did much that is questionable and outright wrong, but he, as much as anybody else, also deserves a fair and factual bio, not a biased, uninformed tirade.  Mel Romero 03:39, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased version and reversion wars