Talk:Luiz of Orléans-Braganza

message: The Orleans-Braganza are not royal princes of France. They lost that status by their naturalization in Brazil, and this was confirmed in the 1909 Pacte de Famille by the head of the Royal House of France and other dynasts. Choess 19:08, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
Pact is not necessarily valid, as already commented by the writer of that website. Clearly, the Duke of Orleans wanted to keep the hardline which also excluded the Spanish Bourbons from Maison de France (without that hard line, Orleans actually is not necessarily the rightful head...). Perhaps the Pact must be seen as Pact of Orleans, not Pact of House of France... (and Orleans-Braganza not Princes of the French but possibly yes Princes of France) - However, after the deposition and the end of monarchy, it is a bit ridiculous to "legislate", thus we should treat those as (potential) members of House of France which would belong to it according to the rules in force at the time of deposition (the two positions should be explained in the text, not for us to decide)... and, Orleans-Braganza have not renounced all their rights, only agreed not to pursue before all else is extinct. 217.140.193.123 20:42, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No Orleans-Braganza is a "Prince of France" according to the traditions of the ancien régime, since no such title existed. They are princes du sang only by French legitimist interpretation -- a rank the Orleans-Braganzas neither claim nor acknowledge, and which French legitimists don't promote. Rather, by the agreement of the 1909 Pacte du Famille, the Orleans-Braganzas agreed to desist their prior assertions to be in the line of succession to the French crown, unless and until extinction of all other dynastic branches of the House of Orleans occurs. In return the head of the House of Orleans (and his dynastic agnates) agreed to 1. recognize the use of the non-dynastic style "prince d'Orleans-Bragance" by legitimate male-line descendants of Gaston, comte d'Eu; 2. to recognize them as kinsmen for purposes of ceremonial precedence; and 3. to recognize their acceptance of the fact that they are not considered French dynasts by the other members of the House of Orleans. (It should go without saying that the Pacte has never prevented the House of Orleans from acknowledging the Brazilian royalty of Eu's descendants). Since no parties to the pact, or their descendants, have disputed its applicability, the only grounds that Wikipedia could have for doing so now is adoption of the Bourbon legitimist POV with regard to a matter that the Orleans resolved internally nearly a century ago. FactStraight (talk) 06:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  French status 

message: It was my understanding that the former is a Spanish name.  Why are we referring to a Brazilian by the Hispanicization of his name?  In the earlier discussion from a few years ago above, everyone refers to him as "Luiz". john k 14:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly as above. The only correct spelling according the current orthography of the Portuguese language is "Luís". This applies in Brazil and Portugal, although in Brazil people can be named whatever the parents want, even "Colher" (spoon) or "Cadeira" (chair). That's a shame that even the "Imperial House" does not always respect the current orthography. Dantadd 23:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I never understood the Wikipedians mania to modify D. Luiz' name by their own will. ALL SOURCES available, Brazilian or not, and including the prince himself, writes his name with the letter "z." This article is misleading people about the correct spelling, which contradicts the terms of use of Wikipedia: "4. Refraining from Certain Activities: Engaging in False Statements, Impersonation, or Fraud". And about the nonsense commentary "that's a shame that even the 'Imperial House' does not always respect the current orthography", the author should remember that the former president which signed the current orthography law still writes his name "wrong" -- Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. So I would like to recomend the correction of all the wrong "D. Luís" entries.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.44.53.152 (talk) 23:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luís or Luíz? 

message: Is this the person mentioned in the last part of this BBC report as having been on Air France Flight 447? Loganberry (Talk) 13:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, apparently not. This diff says that it's his nephew who is missing. Loganberry (Talk) 22:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Air France Flight 447? 

message: That can't possibly be right, can it? john k (talk) 01:42, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vassouras branch settled in Petropolis? 

message: The term "head of house" is a descriptive phrase for a position held by a member of a dynasty (whether that dynasty is reigning or not, e.g. Juan, Count of Barcelona in 1976). A "title of pretence" is a princely (usually national, e.g. "Prince of Prussia", "Grand Duchess of Russia", "Margrave of Baden", "Firstname, Prince Napoléon", "Duke of Bavaria", "Prince Firstname of Montenegro", "Prince of Lippe", etc.) or historical noble title ("Comte de Paris", "Count of Barcelona", "Duke of Calabria", "Margrave of Meissen", "Duke of Brunswick") that is used by a claimant or head of house in lieu of the ancestral title he or she would hold as a ruler. But in this article, "His Imperial and Royal Highness The Head of the Imperial House of Brazil" is being presented as the claimant's proper title rather than as a description of the position he holds. What sources justify this usage? FactStraight (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title vs position 

message: I fully agree with User:Awikimate who reverted an undiscussed move of this page adding a title that is no longer valid, and I strongly object to subsequent edit-warring to restore the article's current name, again with no discussion. Looks like we're going bananas? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted an undiscussed move and restored the original article title, as agreed at the last discussion. DrKay (talk) 06:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The edit was reverted based on a discussion from 15 years ago before the article was actually created. There are sources clearly stating nobility titles do not exist in Brazilian law. It suffices to point the article in Portuguese is titled Luíz Gastão de Orléans e Bragança. I invite any interested partes who are against moving the article again, to please make your point here. Awikimate (talk) 08:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I said in the edit summary, whenever there is prior discussion about an article title, the article should only be moved after a requested move. DrKay (talk) 09:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with DrKay. Besides the point, the "legality" of a title is not what determines its usage in an article title. The article is Aga Khan IV, not Shāh Karim al-Husayni simply because the man was born in switzerland and his ancestral titles mean nothing "legally" in India or Pakistan. If the title is part of the persons WP:Commonname, it merits inclusion. Wikipedia reflects actual usage & trends, not the officialities of government & titles. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 13:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Since any title is likely to be included when someone who has one or uses an illegitimate one, or is given an illegitimate one by more-or-less tabloid-type media, I can't see how WP:Commonname is relevant. Dr. Smith is probably always called Dr. Smith and so is Professor Doe. Irrelevant to article names. The inclusion of royal and noble titles in article names, whether they are obsolete or not, is becoming more and more hysterical on Wikipedia. It needs to be curtailed. Encyclopedia? It's unnecessary and it's embarrassing. Would tend to make any rational person ashamed of the whole project. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Probably should discuss if the title should be changed and if there are any alternatives at Requested Moves.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.110.217.186 (talk) 04:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  This guy is known as "prince..." exclusively in Brazilian monarchist circles. In fact, he only is known to monarchists, and remains largely unknown to society in general. Besides not being a holder of any nobility title, his claim as Head of the Imperial House of Brazil remains disputed within his own family. Moreover, there is not such thing as the Imperial House of Brazil as an institution, that is an informal thing created by monarchists after the abolition of all nobility titles and imperial institutions in 1891. Awikimate (talk) 15:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you feel it should be moved, you can request it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.110.217.186 (talk) 21:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Obsolete title as part of article name

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
----
:Prince Luiz of Orléans-Braganza →  – According to the most reliable sources, nobility titles no longer exist in Brazil: they were abolished in the late XIX Century 1 2 3 4 5. That is because the 1891 Constitution clearly stated those titles were suppressed 6. As a consequence, this article in Portuguese is named "Luíz Gastão de Orléans e Bragança" and not "Prince...". Also, as discussed previously here, WP:Commonname is irrelevant in this case because otherwise any title is likely to be included when someone has one, uses an illegitimate one, or is given an illegitimate one by tabloid-type media, monarchist blogs, and social media pages. WP:Commonname also does not apply here because this person is known as "prince..." exclusively in Brazilian monarchist circles; in fact, he only is known to monarchists and remains largely unknown to society in general. Moreover, his claim as Head of the Imperial House of Brazil is a complete fiction. That claim remains disputed within his own family, and there is not such thing as the Imperial House of Brazil as an institution (that's an informal concept created by monarchists after the abolition of all nobility titles and imperial institutions in 1891). Awikimate (talk) 09:38, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 9 March 2021 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:38, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Please remove the link to Henri Antoine, Hereditary Prince of Ligne, as the article has been deleted. 2601:241:300:B610:E527:D5EF:BD37:8447 (talk) 15:31, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2021 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:37, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Louis I of Brazil and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 22#Louis I of Brazil until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  DrKay (talk) 07:37, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Louis I of Brazil" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:23, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion