Talk:Waylon Smithers/Archive 1

message: This article is a mess, full of inaccuracies and missed information. I'll tidy it when I've got the energy.... Martyn Smith 18:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mess

message: made an edit changing "Waylon J. Smithers Jr." to "Waylon Jaylord Smithers Jr." and this was unnoticed for over a month until I reverted it. Obviously the "jaylord" is vandalism. I also took off the "jr.", as the Simpsons website lists him only as "Waylon Smithers." I'll delete all the J's and Juniors's until someone can find an official source using that title. JianLi 22:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jaylord????

message: Shouldn't the top picture be of Yellow Smithers? Black Smithers only exists for one episode. Lenzar 17:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Top picture

message: Nitpicking here perhaps but this wikipedia article says that Smithers is a alum of Alpha Tau Omega. While on the list of Fictional fraternities and sororities he is listed as being a member of Alpha Tau. While there are many character bios of Smithers that say he was in a fraternity i can find none that list the name of the fraternity. Since i know that usually becuase of licensing rights most fictional characters are usually made to be members of fictional fraternities and every other greek organazation listed in the Simpsons are fictional i'm inclined to belive that this article is wrong and he is a Alpha Tau and the editior simply assumed Alpha Tau Omega. So for now I'm removing the ATO link and will re-write to indicate that he is simply a alum of a Greek organazation. However, hopefully someone can dig up a reference on the name of the Fraternity i think it's an intresting peice of trivia.Trey 17:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AT or ATO? 

message: Waylon's dad is Waylon Sr. or Wayland?  The article contradicts itself currently.
*It's Waylon Sr. not Wayland. Its been fixed and i removed the tagTrey 21:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction

message: "Gay" is the preferred term by the gay community to refer to its members, especially male ones. "Homosexual" is generally disfavored. This is in line with Wikipedia's policy of using terminology favored by a group when referring to that group.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kabanks (talk • contribs) 06:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changed "homosexual" to "gay" 

message: The correct way to make a singular noun possessive is to add 's to the end.  This is true even if the original word ends in s.  Thus: Smithers's and Burns's are the correct possessive forms of the names Smithers and Burns. I'm about to correct these in the article and am puttingvthis note here so folks will understand why. :) Aleta 03:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Are you sure it's not: Smithers' ? --Tyrfing 15:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: FYI, I'm a sad product of the American educational system and will continue to make that mistake. Although I'll try to overwrite my coding feel free to revert as needed. Benjiboi 21:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Possessive case

message: There are a lot of duplicate facts and information in this article. If someone was so inclined, pehaps they could clean it up?Bahamut0013 19:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate Info 

message: A user has removed the LGBT project banner twice, even though he's obviously in love with Burns, who is a man.  If you have a reason for removing the banner, please post it here for discussion. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely forgot about this... Wow. Anyway, Smithers has never been confirmed to be gay, so it's speculation. Would you tag Justin Timberlakes articles just because some people think he's gay? No. Besides, the LGBT project has played no part in the maintenance or expansion of this article, and what importance could Smithers have to the overall LGBT project? It's like The Simpsons WP taggimg every movie that The Simpsons has ever parodied. Grampa is the president of the Gay & Lesbian Alliance (Homer the Great), so you had better hurry and tag that article too. -- Scorpion0422 05:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Snarkiness aside the article clearly delves into why this character of one of the world's most popular shows in considered a gay icon (although a closeted one). Wasn't aware that a wikiproject had to demonstrate active members had contributed to the article although arguably we have as there's not a system for tracking which editor is working a behalf of which project so there's your speculation. As for tagging the article even if there's yet to be any confirmation of Smither's sexuality the tag covers articles of interest to LGBT people's issues not signifying the subject of an article is themselves LGBT. Benjiboi 00:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the problem right there. If a WikiProject is going to add a tag on an article, it should be because the project is going to help clean up and maintain a page, however there are far too many projects that tag pages simply to make their project bigger or because an article has reached GA/FA/FL status. In a project as widespread as the LGBT project, how can a character on a TV show have any kind of importance? For example, Flanders is just as famous for being religious as Smithers is for liking Burns, and yet, the Christianity WikiProject hasn't tagged it or any of the episodes that focus on Christianity. -- Scorpion0422 00:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WikiProjects aren't necessarily about contributing to an article. The LGBT banner specifically states  This article is within the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT related issues on Wikipedia. While the LGBT project does contribute to many articles, it can still just simply tag articles that, as it says, fall within the scope of the project.. that scope being all things LGBT, which unfortunately includes many things some gay people don't want associated with the gay community. It's a balancing act of sorts. A lot of the LGBT project is spent watching articles for LGBT-related vandalism, LGBT-related exclusion and deletion, etc. It's a novel concept, I know, but people do have agendas of trying to remove anything gay on Wikipedia and as such the LGBT project is a watchdog for such activities, in addition to its other functions of article creation, article contributing, etc. Further, I recognize several names in the history of this particular article of people who have contributed to the article, again, not that THAT is a requirement for the LGBT banner. --  ALLSTAR  ECHO 01:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe so, but if I improve the article to GA or even FA status, it would quickly find its way to the list of LGBT project "accomplishments". -- Scorpion0422 01:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't even know we had one and frankly we've done so much it's rather meaningless. Also wikiproject tags like so many tools are here to help organize articles, in the case of wikiprojects to suss out which ones are within the projects scope and depending on the project which ones are targeting for improving. As alluded above we spend an unbalanced amount of energy fighting LGBT related vandalism and drama (from pure juvenile homophobic nonsense to fighting to keep our usertags (they were all deleted) to simply justifying that our project tag should be left on an article).Benjiboi 02:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to AGF and assume that your not taking a shot at me here, but I have removed project tags from many pages, not just this one.  -- Scorpion0422 02:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And you may notice that many of those same tags have been restored. I suggest that unless you are considered a relative "expert" in a project you may want to hold off on removing a tag (like, what the harm if a talk page tag is put on in error?) and let someone from that particular project determine in it truly meets (or may one day meet) the scope of a project. Benjiboi 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Already have but will look to doing more. Benjiboi 02:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll give it a shot. I love Smithers. Give me a couple days to see what kind of information I can dredge up. (And surely a forum as accessible and ephemeral as Wikipedia is not the best place for individual editors or wikiprojects to attempt to take credit for any articles within. There doesn't seem to be any glory in a free encyclopedia.) --Moni3 02:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally how I start is I do a google search of some big media sites and see what I get. Here are some search results for "Waylon Smithers" at EW.com, IGN.com, CBC.ca, canoe.ca, thestar.com and cnn.com. I have to get some shuteye, so I'll continue work tomorrow. -- Scorpion0422 02:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Smithers has never been confirmed to be gay, so it's speculation." I do recall the episode Future-drama (set in the future) Bart meets Smithers: "Mr. Smithers, I always thought you were, you know..." "No, I'm straight, as long as I take these injections every ten minutes. *injects* I love boobies!"--Tyrfing 15:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recall as well but do you remember which episode? It may speak to the characters life-long suppression or closet-ness. Benjiboi 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Brilliant. Anyone know what episode the above ref gay parade was in? We might as well get it all in one go if possible. Benjiboi 23:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After a little searching I think it's the episode called Jaws Wired Shut. The episode does mention the Pride parade, Homer loses his patience with the parade after seeing a group of dogs wearing leather then starts a riot in the cinema before breaking his jaw on a statue. (I only mention it because it's so hard to link the main part of an episode with the set up.) --Tyrfing 23:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Will this  do as a reference? --Tyrfing 23:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Potentially, it at least asserts that fans have labeled him a closeted gay man. Benjiboi 00:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Future episodes aren't considered canon and thus usually aren't mentioned in profile sections. And, the reason I didn't add the Jaws Wired Shut reference is because you can only hear is voice. -- Scorpion0422 01:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree that future episodes are considered non-canon but even if they were the content can certainly be included. No one is disputing it's Smithers' voice coming out of the closet. Benjiboi 13:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT Project Banner 

message: According to the character box, Smithers' hair color is blue in ONE episode. The image and section on "Black Smithers" show that he was black and had blue hair in Homer's Odyssey. However, I recently saw There's No Disgrace Like Home. In this episode, his hair is blue as well - and this clearly comes after Homer's Odyssey, as proven both by the episode list and the fact Smithers is not black here. So, to the best of my knowledge, Smithers' hair is blue in the first TWO episodes. 70.111.0.219 22:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hair Color 

message: There was one allusion to Smithers' homosexuality in which Burns is washing his car and for some reason, Smithers catches fire, he screams to Burns to spray water on him screaming "I'm flaming!". Burns looks less than surprised. I can't remember this episode bu I know that I have seen this before. Reginmund 07:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  allusion missing 

message: Is it possible that Smithers is named after Wayland's Smithy, or is the similarity just a coincidence? 195.137.79.247 14:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess they went first with "burns" and "smithereens", names that fit people (badly) running a nuclear plant, and then they indulged themselves when choosing Smithers's first name, which is quite rarely used. This hypothesis looks quite obvious to me but then again I cannot source it. elpincha (talk) 05:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to one of the commentaries, they got his first name from Wayland Flowers. -- Scorpion0422 16:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for the name 

message: In "My sister, my sitter" (S08E17), when Lisa visits Dr. Nick's confidential clinic and asks Mr. Smithers if she could go ahead of him, Mr. Smithers is shown to be the only waiting patient who is standing right in front an empty seat on the bench on which all the other patients are sitting. When he notes that he would rather have "this" taken care of as soon as possible, he is looking in the direction of his buttocks, possibly an allusion to anal stimulation with unintended results.--80.145.64.41 18:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yet another allusion? 

message: Currently the first appearance section of the infobox says ""Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire" (Voice only) "Homer's Odyssey"", but I think it's unnecessary to mention both episodes. Which should be the one we mention? The first time we hear him (which aired first) or the first time we say the character? -- Scorpion0422 04:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: First appearance

message: The phrase Smithers has occasional fantasies about Burns seems misleading, haven't most (all?) Smithers' fantasies been about Burns? Benjiboi 16:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and he has them occasionally. -- Scorpion0422 17:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it would be more correct to state something like all of Smithers' fantasies are about Burns...unless we want to imply he fantasizes all the time.  Benjiboi 19:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fantasies 

message: In the 1994 episode "Lisa vs. Malibu Stacy" When Lisa seeks Smithers for help in contacting the inventor of Malibu Stacey, Smithers gets the information from his home computer. Smithers is president of the Malibu Stacy Fan Club and has the largest Malibu Stacy collection in Springfield and even shoved kids out of the way to get the new Malibu Stacy doll. In "Homer vs. Dignity" Smithers asked for a week off to "make my dream come true" and mount 'Malibu Stacy, The Musical' at the Albuquerque Theater in New Mexico. With himself in the role of a Ken look-alike Smithers and a Malibu Stacy look-alike actress sit on the hood of a pink Corvette for their duet "Sold Separately"
Smithers:	Sold separately,
		Sometimes I feel like I've been
		Sold separately.
		But out of the box I find you poseable ...
			[turns to Stacy]
Stacy:		Loveable ...
			[turns to Smithers]
Both:		Just ... like ... me.
		[cut to a bored man in the audience, and his wife]
Man:		This is better than a movie ... why?
There was no closure or any other reference to the musical so the audience is left to assume the musical had its run and closed within the week with Smithers able to be back to the nuclear plant for the following week's episode. Benjiboi 18:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have a good point, I guess I should add something about his Malibu Stacy obsession. -- Scorpion0422 02:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malibu Stacey 

message: The article has achieved GA Status after being deemed as having passed the  GA Criteria
Congratulations,
Tovojolo 12:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Status

message: Any ideas? Based on Troy McClure (which is an FA), I think the article needs some copyediting, and a better cultural influence section would be handy. He's had to have had some kind of positive impact on the LGBT community, so I guess we need to start looking. -- Scorpion0422 01:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As well, I'm not sure about this sentence: In many ways, he represents the stereotypical closeted gay man. He has gay friends and hangs out in Springfield's gay village, and goes on a vacation to a male-only resort." That sentence makes it seem like having gay friends and hanging out at a gay village are stereotypes. There has to be a better way that can be said. -- Scorpion0422 02:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Smithers' Malibu Stacy collection (and Burns' screen saver greeting), his association with known gays, and his habit of vacationing at gay resorts were all listed in maybe the 25 different news stories I pulled for the paragraph about the press involving who was coming out of the closet in Springfield. How about writing it as: Smithers' habits  1 2 3 have been used by news outlets as evidence that he is a closeted homosexual.(ref ref ref) --Moni3 12:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any specific sources that could be used? -- Scorpion0422 16:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The road to FA

message: No time to look at it now, will get to it later.  -- Scorpion0422 04:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A source

message: Anyone got any info about the name relation between Waylon Smithers and Wayland Smith? Could just be a coincidence, but vaguely interesting (to someone like myself who spents far too much time reading about the long dead people).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 03:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's just a coincidence. The producers say his first name came from Wayland Flowers. -- Scorpion0422 03:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I see this discussion has been here before above. Slightly strange coincidence, but alright. I wonder if Waylond was a gay smith (all the Simpsons metal workers seem to be gay).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 03:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Weyland the Smith

message: The episode Sex, Pies, and Idiot Scrapes mentions that Smithers is about to have a commitment ceremony.  I added a brief mention of this fact, and it was immediately removed.  This is a pretty huge event in Smithers' life, and although we only know of it from a quick mention by Marge, it is canonical that the ceremony is planned.  If he's planning a commitment ceremony, he's in a relationship (albeit off-screen).  It should be mentioned.  What do others think? Seansinc (talk) 05:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless they actually show it, or it is mentioned again, I don't think it should be mentioned. As Scorpion0422 mentioned in his edit summary, if it is just a brief one time joke, we don't ever list that kind of stuff. CTJF83Talk 05:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Smithers' Commitment Ceremony

message: The image :Image:Smithers.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --03:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Smithers.jpg

message: One thing that I'm always astounded by this article is that the category structure doesn't include one of the fictional LGBT character categories. While I am aware that, "officially", he is "Burns-sexual", exclusion from these categories for this fact to be unwise for several reasons:
*There is considerable debate among the production team whether Smithers is gay or Burns-sexual.
*The show is not subtle with the homosexuality hints to men other than Burns; see "Homer's Phobia", "Jaws Wired Shut", "Three Gays of the Condo" (and, I think, Future-Drama).
*Smithers is arguably one of the most influential LGBT characters in contemporary fiction, even if he isn't "officially" gay.
*The article is already included in the LGBT project and List of LGBT characters in film, radio, and TV fiction.
*Even were the second point invalid, there is a, as I've observed, unwritten low bar for characters to be included. Hell, the LGBT project 
was the second example I would've given in this WikiProject Council thread. The sexual/romantic attraction to Burns would certainly qualify it for categorisation.
*The issue of Smithers' sexuality is inseparable from the character as a whole; this is more of a fact than opinion (when was the last time Smithers had a meaningful presence in an episode without a sexuality reference?).
Therefore, I propose that the article be included in one of the categories, at least. While I think that a case could be made for the "Fictional gay men" category, it would be acceptable to put him in the wider ranging "fictional LGBT characters" category because he's never officially come out. Sceptre (talk) 23:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we really need to go through this again? These debates are an annoying waste of time and nine times out of ten go nowhere. In the show, he's strongly hinted to be gay, but not "officially". Yes, they make dozens of jokes about it, but they have insinuated that practically every character in the show is gay (hell, Homer has kissed more men than Smithers has, so why don't you campaign to have him added as well?). In the end, do the categories really matter? The article already acknowledges that he is, most likely, gay and it's not like being in a category will make any kind of difference. -- Scorpion0422 23:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with Scorpion, and adding we need to wait till he comes out on the show to add any LGBT category CTJF83Talk 00:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Yes, it does, but my assertion is that the strong hints by themselves—backed up by the 2008 GLAAD list (though, bizzarely, not the 2006 list)—do qualify Smithers for being in one of the categories. Seeing as he's already included in on-wiki and off-wiki lists, and on-wiki LGBT projects, I don't think we should prevent the article for one of the most prolific LGBT characters in fiction from being in a category just because he's not "officially" gay; sexuality is more fluid than "gay", "bisexual", "straight". Smithers is beyond a doubt an LGBT character, even if he doesn't fit snugly into one of those three labels, so should be categorised as such. That, and I prefer lists and categories to have a fair amount of synchronicity. Sceptre (talk) 11:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Last time I checked, GLAAD had nothing to do with the actual show, so why should their interpretation hold any weight here? Smithers probably shouldn't be in the list either, and if I wanted to get into a long headache of a debate over it (I don't) I'd try to remove his name. -- Scorpion0422 15:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't bother Scorp, I tried and was reverted a few times by User:Otto4711 CTJF83Talk 16:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think, however, we should get community consensus in this discussion instead of the same few people. Sceptre (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion in [[:Category:Fictional LGBT characters]]