Talk:Voiced dental, alveolar and postalveolar trills

message: Listening to the attached wav, it sounds to me like a computer speaking the word "lamp-post"! Am I hearing right? Where does the word "lamp post" have any "r" or Alveolar Trill sound?
Nyh 15:14, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The recording is of renowned phonetician Peter Ladefoged producing the alveolar trill sound between two vowels, in this case [a]. Nohat 04:48, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I've just found out that my valiant attempts at making an  are still resulting in .  Putting the tip of my tongue against my alveolar ridge and blowing still makes the back of my tongue vibrate against my uvula.
I talked to one of my college instructors, who is a native Czech speaker, and she showed me visually how to make an alveolar trill.  I observed her rapidly vibrating the tip of her tongue against her alveolar ridge.  And then when I try to do that, I just get , which is not the same thing.  She told me to try pronouncing  as the first step towards making the elusive alveolar trill, but I don't think that will work for me.
-- Denelson83  18:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The continuing saga of Denelson83 vs. [r] 

message: Why the silly comment about Tim Hortons?  It's not popular to say that in Canada and adds nothing of value to the article.  I say it should be removed.  Also, what's with the apostrophe in "rolled R's"?
:See the Tim Hortons article.  Denelson83  22:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tim Hortons 

message: In most of my phonetic texts, the expression "rolled r" is used to refer to the uvular trill.  "Trill" is used to generally to the alveolar trill.  And "burring" is the standard English pronunciatioin for an initial "r".  This treatment is fairly consistent all the way back to some texts written in 1900.  The use of the expression "guttural r" to refer to the uvular trill is very rare, and somewhat ambiguous anyway, since the word "guttural" is just an antiquated synonym for "velar".  It survives into modern English lay writing in the expression "guttural speech" used to describe languages such as Dutch or Swiss German which contain an inordinate portion of strongly pronounced velar fricatives and affricates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.118.87.154 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 10 March 2006  (UTC)
:That's uvular. Swiss German has the voiceless uvular but no velar fricative; Dutch has both, depending on the dialect or something (like, Dutch language says <g> is , but I've heard Belgians pronounce it as .
:Forget about "guttural". Merge Guttural R into Uvular trill.
:David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 15:33 CET-summertime | 2006/4/3
::You obviously mean ?  is restricted to Dutch Dutch. Perhaps those people were Dutchmen in Belgium. --Helloworlditsme (talk) 04:59, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  doesn't occur as a realization of  in Belgium, that's true - but it can occur as an allophone of , especially in Limburg. Peter238 (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rolled R versus Trilled R 

message: Anyone think that it's use in classical vocal music and theater in English should be mentioned?--Tabun1015 15:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if that's the reason.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in the arts 

message: It is used in Romanian, and it is the only way to pronounce it (no other types of R...) yet there's absolutely no mention of it here, and even when it says most romance languages it's the only one that uses it and is not there!
:The only Romance language that uses it because Italian is obviously Germanic? LjL (talk) 18:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in Romanian 

message: We native Turkish speakers of Turkey are often reminded that our final "r" sounds much like the French "j", to our great astonishment. We are all convinced however that what we pronounce is a regular "r" sound as in Italian... until the first time we ask a stranger to repeat the word. He/She will nearly always reproduce a "zh" or "sh" sound for the final "r". It has been suggested in several blogs that the sound is similar to the Czech "ř" for which the IPA gives /r̝/, yet I am not convinced that the tongue is raised in Turkish while pronouncing this phoneme. Most phoneticians seem to have neglected the particularity of its pronunciation. If any professionals or laymen have ideas as to the appropriate IPA transcription for this phonetic phenomenon, I would be glad to know.
:You are right, I have read about this phenomenon before. As far as I can determine, it's not actually a [ʒ], but a palatalised [r] (or more precisely, a palatalised tap, which explains why it's so easily misheard as [ʒ] or [j]), like in Russian царь (car', 'czar') or словарь (slovar', 'dictionary') (interestingly, this is also easy to mishear as [j], or perhaps some - younger? - speakers really pronounce it the same as [j]).
:Interestingly, the Armenian language works alike in this case: final /r/ is palatalised as well, and also a tap. It seems to sound very similar.
:Another language where it seems to me that the same phenomenon might occur is Icelandic, but according to the descriptions found on Wikipedia, it's just a devoiced trill there. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It indeed sounds like Czech ř, however many Czechs don't consistently trill their Řs, leaving only fricatives that sound somewhere between z/ž(z/ʒ) or s/š(s/ʃ).--90.179.235.249 (talk) 03:41, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, I am a native Czech and I have noticed that the Turks pronounce the final R in such a way that it strongly resembles me of our ř (the voiceless allophone of ř), much more than the Russian palatalized phoneme. When I was told "Good night" (iyi geceler) by my Turkish friend, I heard the same  ř as when I'd say the Czech imperative "Eat supper!" (večeř).  I am not a phonetician, yet I doubt it is right what is said here that "many Czechs do not consistently trill their Řs, leaving only fricatives", or especially with the idea that what is left is any similar to z/ž(z/ʒ) or s/š(s/ʃ). We hear those as totally different and pronouncing ř as one of those is a mark of lack of mastery of speech in small children, non-native speakers, old people with some dental deffects and - perhaps? - drunkenness :)  I'd be curious to hear some recordings of the cases where native Czechs leave them as pure fricatives.  As regards the comparison with Turkish (and Russian), let us mention that historically the ř comes from a palatalized r (so the Russian palatalized tap corresponds to ř in cognate words quite often, but not so in sound and I'd say the Turkish is rather Czech VOICELESS version of ř than the Russina. I now do not recall the article mentioning the voiceless. We have regularly two positional allophones of ř, after voiceless consonants and word-finally, it is devoiced.  yak~cswiki (I realize I am not logged in, but this is my username)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.207.108.12 (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Turkish Final "r" 

message: Alveolar trill is also used in Icelandic (the page does not mention this). As is stated in pargraph about Turkish, in final positions  it, too, seems to often take on quality of the Czech "ř" (IPA /r̝/).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.102.168.244 (talk) 21:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in Icelandic 

message: I have a dificulty to speak r and I always speak as ɽ. Sorry for my English, but I'm not English. --Boskoigic (talk) 09:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Alveolar  is similar. Just move your tongue further front towards your teeth. Actually, respect for you if your trill is truly retroflex, rather than just postalveolar. It's not an easy consonant to produce. --Helloworlditsme (talk) 05:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: [ɽ] is a retroflex flap, not a trill, though. It's also possible that Boskoigic meant [ɻ] and confused the symbols, but his name indicates that his native language is Serbian, so it is more plausible that he did mean the flap. Although Serbian has the alveolar trill, Boskoigic seems to mean that he has difficulty pronouncing it anyway for some reason – maybe a mild speech impediment. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:00, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  I have dificulty 

message: I don't see Mizrahi Hebrew in the article's occurrence list. -- Thelazyleo (talk) 17:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew "Resh" 

message: The alveolar trill is also used in African French.  Its article even says so.  Sandwiches99 (talk) 05:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  African French 

message: Is there a suspected origin for the trill?  It's clearly a very complex sound for non-native speakers, especially for deeply rolled "r"s, which makes me wonder how/why ancient cultures adopted the sound.  Is there enough early knowledge of language to know some of the answers?  If so this might make a good topic for the article.  -Rolypolyman (talk) 21:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, but I guess it has originated from the alveolar tap. Luizdl (talk) 02:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no way to know.  Guesses for the "origin" of this sound or how a language might adopt a trill are just as valid as guesses for the origins for other consonants.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 02:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, your're right, I said that because when I read this article 2 years ago, I didn't know many things about linguistics and I couldn't notice the differences of this sound from that of the flap, only some days later I noticed that the differences is that the trill is like a continuous flap, another example is, I don't know if you watched the movie The Elite Squad, in a music of that movie, when the singer sing "parapapa para..." he speech the trill rather than the flap, listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlJ2AZxIOiM, and in the Portuguese Wikipedia they translated the flap into Vibrante simples (simple trill), look :pt:Alfabeto_fonético_internacional#Consoantes_egressivas, I don't know who translated that, that was how the translator calls that sound. Luizdl (talk) 03:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  How and when did trills appear? 

message: My link to Na'vi rev 344074232 was recently undone.  Regardless of whether Na'vi is a conlang or not, it still uses the Alveolar trill and I believe it should be linked from these pages.  I note that Titan is still listed, even thought the link is red... Willphase (talk) 22:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the conensus on these articles is that only modern spoken natural languages are appropriate.  There are very few exceptions (Ubykh, since it is only recently extinct, Esperanto because it's so commonly spoken).  Na'vi, because it is not modern, spoken, or natural, should not be an exception to this guideline.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 05:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Na'vi link 

message: Icelandic appears in both tables with different examples, initial and final. Clear and reasonable.
Welsh appears in both tables with the same word, where it is apparently contrasting initial with final, but the first occurrence puts both consonants in bold. Wouldn't it just be easier, and less gimmicky, to use two words?
Not a Cymruphone, Varlaam (talk) 01:52, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welsh ''Rhagfyr'' 

message: I understand that inability to pronounce this sound is one of the most common speech defects. In slavic languages, it's usually among the last consonances a child learns to pronounce, usually saying "l" ("lovel" instead of "rover") before learning "r". I guess it would the same case for many other language groups. Could this information be researched and added to the article? This might be the useful for wikis on other sounds as well. (I really wouldn't know what to look for in literature. It's just a suggestion.)193.110.186.126 (talk) 23:07, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation difficulty 

message: Hello. Is the postalveolar trill pharyngealized  by definition? When I pronounce it, it seems to always be somewhat pharyngealized. I can make the secondary articulation more prominent, but not absent. Or perhaps it's velarized by definition, but can be pharyngealized instead? Either way, I don't think that a "clear" postalveolar  is possible, or at least easy to pronounce.
We should also try to find a source for its occurrence in Dutch. Some speakers (perhaps a minority, but still) use it. One great example is the football commentator Eddy Poelmann, who uses a postalveolar trill or tap in every position. --Helloworlditsme (talk) 05:30, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Postalveolar trill 

message: It seems that I have an upward limit on how quickly the muscles of my tongue can move? Even attempting to train further can cause days of considerable discomfort. Any ideas?Ernest Ruger (talk) 01:30, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll get used to it. If not, you'll have to visit a doctor. It may be something serious. Peter238 (talk) 20:18, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

text: The vibration is meant to be caused by the airflow, rather than directly by the tongue's muscles. 129.67.156.186 (talk) 08:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  My tongue is just too slow? 

message: 1. It is strange, that there is no mention of the unvoiced "ř" in Czech. Why? It occurs for example in the words "keř" and "přítel".
2. In the Norwegian dialects of Narvik and Trondersk, the "ř" is unvoiced (look at the source), but the article erroneously states that there is voiced "ř". 85.70.117.103 (talk) 21:07, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: See Voiceless alveolar trill#Voiceless alveolar raised non-sonorant trill. Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 10:47, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  unvoiced "ř" in Czech + not voiced "ř" in Norwegian dialects 

message: I'm fairly certain that some older speakers in Jutland realize  (which normally is a uvular/pharyngeal continuant) as an alveolar trill . I'll try to dig up a source for that one. Peter238 (talk) 20:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done! Adding it now. Peter238 (talk) 20:16, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jutlandic accents of Danish 

message: The non-fricative section has only "apical" and the fricative section only "laminal". AFAIK, a laminal non-fricative trill is also possible. Yet how it is written now suggest that these two features co-vary. --JorisvS (talk) 09:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: SOWL, page 228: "The only regularly occurring trill we know of that is made with the blade of the tongue is the Czech "ř". This trill is typically made with the laminal surface of the tongue against the alveolar ridge. Short (1987) describes this sound as "a rolled post-alveolar fricative (never the sequence of  plus  attempted by non-czechs...)."" On previous pages, they label all coronal non-fricative trills as apical. Peter238 (talk) 11:02, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That appears important enough to add to the article. To see if I get it right... a laminal non-fricative trill is not impossible, but is not known to occur? --JorisvS (talk) 12:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I'm not sure. SOWL doesn't appear to say that, but you can recheck it. I might've missed something. Peter238 (talk) 13:06, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it really say anything definitive about it, other than the occurrences? I don't have access to it, unfortunately. --JorisvS (talk) 13:31, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAICS saying anything more than that it is most often apical would be OR, so I've edited the article accordingly. Maybe other sources go into more depth on this issue. Peter238 (talk) 06:10, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. And what about the fricative trill? Are all listed examples known to be laminal alveolar and, if so, wouldn't an apical fricative trill still be possible? --JorisvS (talk) 09:09, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: All of the sources I've seen describe the frication of the alveolar fricative trill as being caused by the blade of the tongue approaching the alveolar ridge (the trill may occur during or before the frication, but it's not relevant). I'm not sure if an apical alveolar fricative trill is possible. My guess is that even if it is, it occurs only as a sporadic allophone of an apico-alveolar . If someone else is aware of a source that says otherwise, go ahead and edit the description. Peter238 (talk) 09:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apical vs. laminal 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Dental, alveolar and postalveolar trills. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131211020607/http://www.kent.ac.uk/secl/ell/staff/amalia-arvaniti/docs/Greek%20Phonetics%20-%20The%20State%20of%20the%20Art.pdf to http://www.kent.ac.uk/secl/ell/staff/amalia-arvaniti/docs/Greek%20Phonetics%20-%20The%20State%20of%20the%20Art.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:43, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Dental, alveolar and postalveolar trills. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130403122650/http://www.journalofwestafricanlanguages.org/Files/pdf/01-1/jwal-01-1-Brosnahan.pdf to http://www.journalofwestafricanlanguages.org/Files/pdf/01-1/jwal-01-1-Brosnahan.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304000614/http://www.rastko.net/rastko-ka/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=227&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=26 to http://www.rastko.net/rastko-ka/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=227&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=26
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160123141552/https://www.kent.ac.uk/secl/ell/staff/amalia-arvaniti/docs/ArvanitiCY.pdf to https://www.kent.ac.uk/secl/ell/staff/amalia-arvaniti/docs/ArvanitiCY.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:10, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The both recordings (both the audio from Peter Isotalo and the video featuring an L2 speaker) sound, at least to my ears, post-alveolar rather than alveolar. Could someone attach some recordings so the three can be contrasted. Midi file man (talk) 08:57, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dental and post-alveolar recordings 

message: are there any english language tounge twisters that can help me trill? i can trill just fine; but not in words only on it's own. even then it's pretty half assed; but a trill nontheless Dankpods (talk) 22:37, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  english tounge twisters?