Talk:Propaganda of the deed

message: Anarchist terrorism is POV denomination. The legitimate denomination used by the anarchist movement is, of course, propaganda of the deed. CQFD. Tazmaniacs 16:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that propaganda by the deed is not necessarily violent. However, I propose a merge of Anarchist terrorism here because this latter article would probably not get deleted (even if it will, somebody may create it again) and it is a POV entry which qualifies as original research. Thus, I think a redirect here would allow to explain to those who may be misled why the denomination of "anarchist terrorism" is a contradiction in its terms. As underlined by the article, while terrorism is defined by most scholars as campaign of undiscriminate bombings with the aim of terrorizing the civilian population, anarchist bombings have always targeted specific and important individuals and does not aim at terrorizing the civilian population but quite to the contrary in bolstering revolutionary spirit among the people. This said, a merge would allow this silly stereotype to be properly analyzed and explained on this page, and thus put an end to the irrelevant "anarchist terrorism" page. Tazmaniacs 22:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with [[anarchist terrorism]] 

message: As this entry now correctly indicates, propaganda by the deed may be violent or non-violent, and does not necessarily entail terrorist actions. Consequently, this entry should not be merged with the entry for "anarchist terrorism" as they are not necessarily the same thing.
:Agreed. And on top of that, propaganda by the deed is used by all sorts of people who are not anarchists. Mark Sedgwick 16:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone ahead and ended the merger attempt. But as for another question, should this article be at "Propaganda by the deed" instead? The current title reads rather awkward to me. Sarge Baldy 22:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "of" is more generally used than "by." So I'd leave it, even though it's a bit odd. Mark Sedgwick 07:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Global jihad has always been shown as a struggle against racist/colonial regimes. On the other hand, Anarchism, is about overthrowing the state. Anarchism never had any quarrel with racism until after World War 2, at which point everyone had a quarrel with racism with the possible exception of some racists. I think this article's determination to omit the killing of Archduke Ferdinand, the assassination of Anwar Sadat, and the September 11 attacks, which were explicitly directed at creating insurrection, from being propaganda of the deed. These clearly were propaganda of the deed as they aimed to precipitate revolutions. Al-Qaeda is completely based on the idea of propaganda of the deed. It envisions the overthrow of godless regimes with Islamic regimes through acts of terror. This is the same as Propaganda of the deed. There are obviously some goateed Anarchist intellectuals trying to maintain a false interpretation and interfering with the above realities being incorporated into the article.
81.5.150.96 (talk) 18:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda by the deed v. terrorism 

message: The more commonly used phrase is "propaganda by the deed," from the French, "la propagande par le fait." "Propaganda of the deed" would be "la propagande du fait" in French. However, both expressions are used in English.
:I don't know about which English version is mostly used (although Google finds more for "propaganda of the deed", I do not believe Google shows the light :), however, in French it is not "la propagande du fait" but "la propagande par le fait" (the propaganda by the deed). Tazmaniacs
:I prefer "propaganda by the deed" as well. The other problem with using Google results is that the current Wikipedia title actually influences which term is found more often in search results: "propaganda by the deed" has 16,400 results to 21,700 for "propaganda of the deed". But when you add a parameter removing pages mentioning Wikipedia, you get 15,400 for "by" and 17,700 for "of", making it a lot closer. Sarge Baldy 23:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda by the deed v. propaganda of the deed 

message: Why does Attentat redirect here? This seems strange to me since it should rather redirect to Assassination... -- 82.206.64.78 15:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't speak for the person that did the redirect, but it may be because the two terms have been used interchangeably by folks in the past, particularly by Alexander Berkman when talking about his attempted assassination of Henry Clay Frick. He's the only reason I know the word "attentat". Murderbike 08:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Attentat is the French for "bombing" Tazmaniacs 16:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also German for "assassination attempt", or "assassination". Murderbike 17:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've restored the redirect from Attentat to this article. Two of the three articles that link to Attentat are Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman, and in the Johann Most-influenced anarchist circle from which they emerged, Attentat was synonymous with propaganda of the deed. (Most's article uses the word Attentat and Wikilinks it directly to this article). The third article, First Indochina War refers to the assassination of a French general "during a kamikaze attentat", which is not inconsistent with linking to this article. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 18:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how you can relate the Indochina War with propaganda of the deed, I doubt it was an anarchist who killed the general, probably just a nationalist. "Propaganda of the deed" is not a synonym of "bombing" nor of "assassination", it is an expression related to the anarchist movement. Maybe the best solution is linking directly Emma Goldman & Alexander Berkman to here. Tazmaniacs 23:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I'll do. By the way, attentat doesn't mean bombing in French (as you wrote above). It's literally an attempt (typically an assassination attempt) or other violent action. French Wikipedia defines it: Un attentat est une action destinée à nuire (à attenter) aux biens ou à la vie d'autrui. On parle généralement d'attentat dans un contexte politique, voire terroriste, mais il peut exister des attentats économiques (visant à évincer un concurrent). [Loosely translated: "An attentat is an action intended to harm the property or the lives of others. One typically speaks of an attentat in a political — specifically terrorist — context, but it could be an economic attentat intended to crush a competitor.] — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 02:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Except that I've never heard of an "attentat économique", or you're really stretching the word here... The dictionnary gives you right (attentat from the Latin attentatum) but the common use of the word is "bombing" or in a broader sense "assassination". Cheers! (note that the legal code goes as far as defining money-laundering as a form of "attentat", which is without doubt stretching the word very far - and we would like to see the law being implemented...) Tazmaniacs 03:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless I think we're all clear that attentat is better linked to propaganda of the deed than to "bomb" or "bombing", so why is it now linking to bomb? --Lquilter (talk) 02:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: A short article would be best, in my opinion (although I have always heard and used it synonymously with propaganda of the deed--"certain circles", indeed!). But ==> bomb is too limiting; not all bombings are attentats! POTD is better than bomb for a redirect in the meantime. --Lquilter (talk) 05:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see a problem with a short article, though of those two new definitions, there's not much difference to outline in an article. But if someone else wants to take it on, I wouldn't be against it in the least bit. But the "bomb" redirect was aburd. Not only are all bombings not attentats, but all attentats are not bombings. Murderbike (talk) 07:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am very late to this, but in researching this, I think a new article regarding "Attente" would actually be helpful in discussing the Goldman, J. Most, and Kropotkin inspired attacks experienced in Europe in the 1890s. For more information, a lot of information regarding this could be gleaned from the discussion by Fleming, M. (1987), Propaganda by the Deed: Terrorism and Anarchist Theory in Late Nineteenth-Century Europe published 1987. In this article, Attentants is used in the specific historical context called "The Period of the Attentats." Specifically, see Ravachol, Antonio_Cánovas_del_Castillo,  King Umberto of Italy; according to Fleming, "the attentants climaxed with the killing of Marie_François_Sadi_Carnot."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Novacharlie (talk • contribs) 06:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attentat redirect 

message: Wouldn't the assassination of Franz Ferdinand fit under this category for Propaganda of the deed? It seems a decent example. Belfunk (talk) 02:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But it wasn't an anarchist, it was a Serbian nationalist whodunnit. Chaikney (talk) 00:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Propagandists, seeking to excuse German and Austrian warmongering and the failure of European governments to safeguard their populations from unnecessary wars, wish to make it an exceptional event that initiated WW1, whereas the deed was (as Belfunk suggests) merely one example of many similar assassinations going back into the 19th century. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regicides 

message: Several actions that fit the subject of the article have not been listed in the timeline. To my knowledge, all of the extensive actions in Argentina in the period of 1900-1930 has not been listed. Kurt Gustav Wilcken's assasination of Cl. Varela, Severino DiGiovanni's bombardments, including the famous attacks at the italian consulate and the US embassy, Miguel Arcangel Roscigna's actions and German Boris Wladimirovich's actions all are overlooked.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.210.33.9 (talk) 19:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actions not listed in the timeline 

message: The poster is attributed to be an angel defending against a bomb-wielding anarchist.
The text on the poster belies this: it is a propaganda poster against "Bolshevism", not anarchy  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.5.117 (talk) 13:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrongly attribued poster 

message: Tisane (talk) 07:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could "propaganda of the deed" also be described as essentially a [[publicity stunt]] for political purposes? 

message: Could someone knowledgeable carefully revise the list? In the current form it contains some acts that are clearly not "propaganda by the deed" (as defined in the article), but are acts committed under other motifs (e.g. the murder of Petlyura).EugeneK (talk) 04:06, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccurate classification of violent acts.  

message: Many passages here justify terrorism. Let us call a spade a spade. Zezen (talk) 07:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, came here to say the same thing. Even in the lead "It is primarily associated with acts of left-wing resistance of the late 19th and early 20th". "Resistance", meaning political murders and bomb attacks by a very tiny minority, is a pretty interesting word choice. --Pudeo (talk) 22:49, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I rewrote the passage above to comply with WP:NPOV.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasel words

message: Most of these incidents have no reference at all, let alone to propaganda of the deed. --Jprg1966 (talk) 02:27, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm adding references as I find them, and so far most have linked these acts of violence to "propaganda of the deed".--C.J. Griffin (talk) 06:31, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, those additional references help. Other editors (myself included at some point, maybe), should follow C.J. Griffin's example. --Jprg1966 (talk) 02:51, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

text: I agree in theory about culling out the unsourced entries, but I think the articles should be checked in case the sources are there before removal. Leviv ich 05:03, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research in "notable actions" section 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Propaganda of the deed's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "assassin":
From Symon Petliura: Famous Assassinations in World History: An Encyclopedia, Michael Newton, two volumes, ABC-CLIO, 2014, pages 418-420
From Jim Bell: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 07:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Propaganda of the deed]] 

message: This is probably doing more harm than good. Virtually all political violence could be categorized as "propaganda of the deed." Prezbo (talk) 00:16, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Prezbo yes, that's why the WP:Original research tag is on the article. What the timeline should include is only instances that are actually described by reliable sources as propaganda of the deed. If you want to tackle that one, it would be a great help. It's been on the WP:@ cleanup list for ages. -- asilvering (talk) 01:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be an improvement, but I think the list/timeline format is always going to look unwieldy and it would be better to have a short narrative. Contrast Islamic terrorism, I think the “history” section of that article is a better approach. But you’re right that I probably won’t take on this task. Prezbo (talk) 02:16, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Asilvering; @Prezbo: I have gone ahead and removed all the uncited entries in the list. The remaining entries should be verified, to make sure the sources actually describe them as an action of "propaganda of the deed". To be honest, I also doubt that a list is a good way to communicate this information, although that may just be me. The longer I spend on here, the less I think lists are valuable for the encyclopedia. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:25, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they serve a useful navigational purpose for people who are on wiki-reading rabbit-holes. I used to like them for that purpose, anyway. (These days I don't rabbit-hole too much because I get sidetracked by cleaning up some backlog or other.) -- asilvering (talk) 15:35, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline