Talk:Anna Politkovskaya/Archive 2

message: Deleted: "Her killing has served to further expose the nature and extent of corruption in Russia. " - any reference? Seems like a personal point of view
:Personally I don't see a problem with it in terms of POV: the assassination of a high profile journalist who regularly criticised the government does "expose the nature and extent of corruption in Russia", especially when it's one of several assassinations in a country that has become well known for corruption in recent years. I think this is inherent rather than a matter of personal opinion so I vote to leave it in, but let's see what others think. -- Hux 15:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Its the sort of statment which is meaningfl when historians say it, but not so much when you say it here & now.  How are news agencies treating it?  Do they even mention the birthday bit?  If so, yes, I'd say go with it.  JeffBurdges 18:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Her killing has served to further expose the nature and extent of corruption in Russia? 

message: I removed the paragraph about accusations of Anna Politkovskaya in dishonest reporting by the Russian state-controlled media.  The text was an obvious distortion of the content of references [15] and [16].  I believe it is important to focus on facts rather than claims or accusations from either side.  If she really lied about anything, please present the facts and justify them, although I do not think it is a mission of Wikipedia to decide on such matters.  There was nothing about dishonest reporting or “unwilingness to check facts” in references [15] and [16]. --Biophys 03:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unfounded accusations 

message: I think there should be a main article for the assassination. I made a link for it. For example, all government reactions should be put there. For example, see Olof Palme and Olof Palme assassination. ---Majestic- 20:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea, as this main article is already 41 kilobytes long. The assassination section here should be shortened. JIP | Talk 07:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anna Politkovskaya assassination - main article 

message: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=716117
It's in Russian, so here's translation:
Murderers of Politkovskaya May Be Hiding in Siberia
// Local police officers are under suspicion//
Former officers of Nizhnevartovsk's police could be involved in the murder of Novaya Gazeta's columnist Anna Politkovskaya. The journalist helped to put one of them in prison while two other officers were placed on the international wanted list and six more are still under suspicion.
The investigation team of the murder of Anna Politkovskaya went to Nizhnevartovsk, Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Area in Siberia last week. They received information that two former police officers Major Alexander Prilepin and Lieutenant Colonel Valery Minin were seen in the city. The men are wanted internationally for crimes they committed in Chechnya.
The investigators, however, did not find the men in the city but they interrogated Prilepin and Minin's relatives and former colleagues.
Between 2002 and 2005, Anna Politkovskaya wrote several stories in Novaya Gazeta about the murder of Zelimkhan Murdalov, 30, from Grozny in January 2001. The journalist learnt that the Chechen was detained for no clear reason by police officers who went from Siberia to Chechnya. The men killed Murdalov, hid his body to cover up tracks. Politkovskaya was the first to name possible perpetrators of the crime – Senior Lieutenant Sergei Lapin from Nizhnevartovsk and his commanders, Major Prilepin and Colonel Lieutenant Minin. She wrote later that these officers and some other employees of the Interior Ministry were involved in the killing of Zelimkhan Murdalov and dozen of other Chechen civilians.
Sergey Lapin was sentenced to 11 years in prison last March. His accomplices are still on the wanted list.
"I cannot say that articles by Anna Politkovskaya influenced the trial and the subsequent verdict," Stanislav Markelov, lawyer of the relatives of the slain Chechen, says. "Still, the officers believed that she was the motor of the case, and they put the blame for all their problems on her."
Journalists from Novaya Gazeta recall that Anna Politkovskaya received letters, emails and phone calls with threats during preliminary investigation and even after the trial of Sergey Lapin.
Politkovskaya was shot dead on October 7, and officers from Nizhnevartovsk also came under suspicion. Lapin is not among them – he is currently serving his term in a prison in Nizhny Tagil. Moscow investigators, however, keep an eye on his relatives. They have already interrogated Lapin's father and sister.
It is no accident that the investigators questioned the officer's sister. The latest theory of Politkovskaya's murder has it that at least three people were involved in the killing, including a man and a young woman who were following the journalist. They appeared in footage of close circuit cameras at the Ramstore shop. The perpetrator of the crime is believed to be a tall ethnic Slavonic man who had sporty or army bearing, as witnesses say. Investigators have already drawn the portrait of the suspect. It has not been published, though, due to security reasons. The Prosecutor General's Office hopes that the man will be recognized by military men or police officers from Chechnya without publicity and will be caught soon.
--HanzoHattori 11:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official suspects: Siberian OMON fugtive war criminals (Lapin case) 

message: The third paragraph under Assassination begins, "Prosecutor General Yury Chaika will personally oversee the investigation, his office announced on Sunday." Can someone clarify when this was? Was it the day after her death or sometime later? Thanks. 12.96.58.22 20:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which Sunday? 

message: A mysterious illness moves along the roads and makes frequent stops in schools by Anna Politkovskaya, Novaya Gazeta, 2006.
I did not found two other articles ("Lessons of ethiology" and "Schools are closed, hospitals are over flown" for 2006) in Novaya Gazeta. Biophys 16:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Her publications about mass poisoning of school children in Chechnya (Russian)

message: Anna was at the Edinburgh Book Festival 14 August 2005, her talk is available to hear on the Book Festival web page: http://www.edbookfest.co.uk/readings/index.html--Eveningsong 02:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk 

message: Can you show here the text from two references you cited, which would say that Politkovskaya was criticized "for her unwilingness to check facts before reporting them"? Biophys 15:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From your answer below, I can conclude that two references you cited before do not include anything about "her unwilingness to check facts before reporting them". But you reverted my changes several times and called me a vandal. Biophys 19:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

text: "compromat.ru" is unreliable source for Wikipedia.  As follows from the name of the source, it serves specifically for "compromat", that is "to discredit certain people". You can discredit anyone using such "sources", as you already did with Boris Stomakhin. I had a similar discussion about "compromat.ru" when your collegaues tried to discredit Sergei Kovalev. It has been decided that this source is indeed unreliable. Biophys 19:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Compromat.ru is just a place where all the data is compiled. No one person has ever sued Compromat.ru for what you call as discreditation. I may call as discreditation any claim of NGO about trial of racist and fascist Boris Stomakhin. You may keep your personal opinion, but if you cite POV in Politkovskaya article, you should give a place fro all POV accordingly, so as not to distort the real image of POlitkovskaya. You even don't know simple facts about Politkovskaya, such as she was a US citizen. You may read a statement of Department of State of the United States of America on her death in order to learn this simple fact that she has dual citizenship.Vlad fedorov 06:18, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree, it is O'K to say that she was criticised. But to be fair, we then have to present her reply to such criticism in the most objective manner, that is using her citation from the corresponding article. Current version does not properly reflect her reply. In addition, the article by Arutunyan was published after the murder, not during "last years of her life". So, a different reference might be required. But if to remove "last years" as I did, your reference can be just fine, except that Arutunyan was strongly criticized for this article (interview with Albats). Biophys 20:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To Vlad fedorov

message: I copy and paste this text from the source, page 3 (an article written by Anna Politkovskaya):
"I will not go into the other joys of the path I have chosen, the poisoning, the arrests, the threats in letters and over the Internet, the telephoned death threats, the weekly summons to the prosecutor general's office to sign statements about practically every article I write (the first question being, "How and where did you obtain this information?"). Of course I don't like the constant derisive articles about me that appear in other newspapers and on Internet sites presenting me as the madwoman of Moscow. I find it disgusting to live this way. I would like a bit more understanding." I never distort citation of the sources. Biophys 16:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The source

message: The assassination section here should be shortened – again – because there is a sub-article, Anna Politkovskaya assassination, for that purpose. It was created so that this main article wouldn't become oversized and overshadow everything else, mainly her biography section. After I created the assassination article on October 23, I shortened the assassination section on this main article to 5 paragraphs, but someone copypasted the whole Anna Politkovskaya assassination article back to the main article one month later.
IMO, the main article should contain only the first several paragraphs about the assassination but not the subsections (government reactions etc). See Olof Palme and Olof Palme assassination - that's how these articles should be handled. ---Majestic- 13:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Much of the information in the "Assassination" section here is a direct copy of information that already exists in the other article. All this article needs is a link to that article and a few short paragraphs describing the assassination. -- Hux 07:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The assassination section here should be shortened 

message: I agree with Ilgiz. Vlad inserted the following segment: 
"According to journalist Anna Arutunyan, 'During a reporting trip in 2001, Politkovskaya was detained by military officials in the Chechen village of Hotuni. When she was released, she wrote that she had uncovered pits dug out in the ground where military officials would allegedly keep Chechen hostages for ransom, directly accusing General Baranov, then commander of the Chechen federal troops, of these crimes. The publication was followed by a criminal investigation based on the allegations, but a delegation of official human rights envoys was unable to find any such pits. At a later press conference in Moscow, Politikovskaya admitted that she had never actually seen the pits herself, but that witnesses related seeing them to her. In another account she had said the ransoms was $150, while in another - $500'.Anna Arutunyan Journalist Murder a Conundrum The Moscow News N39 2006 
Another telling example was Politkovskaya's recent allegations that special forces were preparing an "escape" for jailed oil tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, in the course of which he was to be killed. Her source was a retired KGB officer who had served time in the camps. While the article was published in Novaya Gazeta this spring, these allegations went nowhere.Anna Arutunyan Journalist Murder a Conundrum The Moscow News N39 2006 
Hence, Politkovskaya was primarily viewed as an activist rather than reporter. When terrorists held an auditorium hostage during the Nov. 2002 production of Nord-Ost, she spoke to the hostage takers and made their demands public. In Sept. 2004, terrorist in the Beslan school siege had also demanded her presence.Anna Arutunyan Journalist Murder a Conundrum The Moscow News N39 2006 
 	
Against this backdrop, it would seem that despite a brave and sincere commitment to unraveling corruption and atrocities wherever possible, Politkovskaya's priorities as a journalist focused more on accusing and less on reporting.Anna Arutunyan Journalist Murder a Conundrum The Moscow News N39 2006 "
All these segments criticize Anna Politkovskaya (to say the least). These accusation have only one source: Anna Arutynan who has no good credentials, experience, or journalist reputation. Moreover, Yevgenia Albats hinted that Anna Arutynanyan made this up on the order from the "above" (which seems to be very likely after reading the entire Russian text of the interview at Echo of Moscow - see . Moreover, Anna Arutynan made later a number of defamatory claims about  Yevgenia Albats, which have not been confirmed from any independent sources. Therefore, I suggest to remove these segments if and when the article will be unlocked. Biophys 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another source about Politkovskaya lying in her articles: General Troshev 
Трошев Г.Н. Моя война. Чеченский дневник окопного генерала 
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/troshev/04.html 
На такие нерадостные мысли меня навела нашумевшая история с корреспондентом "Новой газеты" А. Политковской, которая в августе 2000 года сопровождала гуманитарный груз для дома престарелых в Грозном. Военные, как и положено, сформировали колонну, выделили усиленную охрану (любое продвижение людей по городу небезопасно). Но журналистка, похоже, об этом не думала. По пути то и дело требовала непредусмотренных остановок для решения каких-то своих проблем. В очередной раз остановив колонну, приказала военным ждать и растворилась в одном из городских кварталов. Почти час солдаты и офицеры торчали на улице в качестве отличной мишени для боевиков. Командир весь извелся: всего одной гранаты в борт БТР или снайперской пули из окна хватило бы для трагедии. Именно это и высказал он вернувшейся журналистке, которая тут же выплеснула на военных ушат оскорблений. Позже в газете появилась ее статья, где она повторила обвинения военным во всех тяжких грехах: мол, и трусы они, и бездельники. 
Через полгода новая скандальная история с той же журналисткой. Теперь Политковская обнаружила какие-то ямы, где якобы "федералы" держат пленных из числа мирных жителей. Понаехали комиссии, проверили все до последней телеги, но ничего не обнаружили. Приведенные в публикации факты не подтвердились. Политковская настолько, видимо, ненавидит армию, что в День защитников Отечества в телепрограмме "Глас народа" дошла до прямых оскорблений в адрес солдат и офицеров, воюющих в Чечне. Как же отреагировали на это, мягко скажем, недостойное поведение журналистки в Министерстве обороны? А никак. Не захотели связываться. Могу ошибиться, но не припомню случая (кроме разве что иска П. Грачева к "Московскому комсомольцу"), чтобы военные подавали в суд за откровенную клевету или оскорбления со стороны некоторых СМИ. 
As for the holding pits, geez, there are numerous photographs of these, even with the soldiers posing. Not really a huge secret. These pits have name, which I don't remember now (something like "zidan"). One of the things Yuri Budanov was accused of was beating up his own subordinate officer and keeping him in a pit. --HanzoHattori 21:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please, show links to them if this is not a secret. You must show links to pits used by Russians. I know many links to the videos of tourtures performed by Chechens, but have seen no one pointing to Russian videos.Vlad fedorov 03:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hanzo, I agree of course. The problem is that certain editor deletes a lot of things supported by reliable sources. You could trace my or his edits to see. If you could help me out by editing yourself some of the articles in question, such as active measures or anything else, that would be great. I am not so familiar with Russian politics, really.Biophys 02:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are not competent in Russian politics, then why you edit Russian politics articles in Wikipedia?Vlad fedorov 03:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, he said "familiar", not competent. Secondly, if his lack of familiarity with Russian politics means that he shouldn't be editing articles to do with Russian politics then one could easily argue that your demonstrated lack of familiarity with the English language means you shouldn't be editing articles on the English Wikipedia. -- Hux 05:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I only wanted to tell that HanzoHattori knows history much better than me, and that he is a better editor. I am only a biophysicist, not a historian or a political scientist. So, I only repeat what the sources say, but someone deletes these texts. Biophys 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arutunyan claims and POV

message: In the further reading section, should there be some mention of her latest book A Russian Diary   released on 20 March 2007? Sadako No Deshi 20:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, we should mention this book. Perhaps we should make a separate article Russian Diary if this article will remain locked for editing.Biophys 02:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I just found this: "We are hurtling back into a Soviet abyss, into an information vacuum that spells death from our own ignorance. All we have left is the internet, where information is still freely available. For the rest, if you want to go on working as a journalist, it's total servility to Putin. Otherwise, it can be death, the bullet, poison, or trial - whatever our special services, Putin's guard dogs, see fit."m -- Anna Politkovskaya, "Poisoned by Putin," The Guardian, September 9, 2004. Should be included in this article.Biophys 04:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A Russian Diary

message: Taken from : 
This letter has been received by the IPV News GULAG Project Editorial Office via E-mail on March 23, 2007. Taking into account the importance of the information, we found it necessary to provide its English translation with the maximum details retained.
We, the members of the Baysarov’s group, address this to all the Chechens.
Movladi was a bandit covered by the Military Intelligence of the 58th Army Corps. Since 1995 his activities in town of Dolinskoy included kidnapping people for ransom and stealing petrochemicals. Before the Second Chechen War he grew rich by allying himself with the military of the 58th Army engaged in illegal oil trade in the Russian territory. During the War, he was getting his dirty money from kidnapping and corpse trading, reinvesting the incom back into war. After Khasavyurt Treaty , Chechnya missed its chance to keep the granted freedom only due to the Regional Operations Staff (ROS) in the North Caucasus and its network. In fact, Baysarov came in contact with the Military Intelligence of the 58th Army as early as during the First Chechen War.
From 1996 through 1997 Baysarov conducted illegal oil trade under the covering of the Counter-espionage Center of the 58th Army, in exchange for running their errands. He formed his first gang and provided them with ammunition from the Mozdok military base. M. Baysarov took control over illegal oil trade and kept it that way until the end of the last year. A portion of crude oil went to Stavropol, Krasnodar, and Rostov-on-Don regions.
The other portion [of crude oil mined] was refined right in the place, in Pobedinskoye, by means of the miniature refineries, to produce gasoline for “internal market”. The numbers amount to hundreds of tons of oil produce, and the reason why Baysarov did not become a billionaire is that the illegal, criminal business requires very high expenses, such as bribery of the military “cover” providing through transportation of the oil cisterns out of Chechnya. The Chechen War is commonly called “commercial”, meaning that corrupt local officials, military, politicians, and other involved do have an income out of it. The gist of the Second Chechen Campaign is to make the Chechens fight among themselves. Thus, Gantamirov [a pro-Moscow Chechen warlord who was at one time imprisoned on embezzlement charges – transl. remark], this convicted thief, was sent straight into battle from Butyrskaya Prison. Yamadaev, a bandit, was made a Russian lieutenant-colonel. Baysarov, however, received a lower military rank of major, but he was also offered a special position in Counter-Espionage Department of the 58th Army.
Movladi came to GRU with his own people. In 2002, this gang was officially renamed into “a group”, but the true value of this formation was in actually remaining a gang. A military intelligence definition for it is “a combat group which has a cover identity (legend) of a gang”. I.e. on one hand, you work for GRU, and on the other you have to be known as a legendary bandit. The criminal oil business allowed maintaining the legend and financing of Baysarov’s men. Movladi was stealing oil to have a wealthy lifestyle and sustain an armed gang… The Russians knew that, and provided covering for Baysarov’s [illegal] business. Commercial interests firmly entangled with those of the military, and it wasn’t possible to resolve this intricate matter in a combat field. As the matter of fact, Movladi hardly distinguished himself between a bandit and an intelligence officer. His infamous reputation of a bold commander of the “Hundred of Chechens” along with the connections in FSB-GRU, began to bring him noticeable profits, even in Moscow. Being acquainted with Baisarov, one was guaranteed a successful business; besides, Movladi himself didn’t necessarily have to settle any business related disputes by force.
Since the early days of the Second [Chechen] war, Movlady’s brother, named Sharani, was put on an intelligence mission as the Chief Body Guard of Akhmad-Khadzhi Kadyrov, so the Military Intelligence gained an information source on the activity of the [pro-Kremlin] head of Chechnya. He was permanently under observation of the Military Intelligence the 58th Army. After the assassination of Akhmad Kadyrov (May 9, 2005), Sharani was deposed because [Ramzan] Kadyrov [the son of Akhmad Kadyrov – transl. remark] became suspicious, stirred up by his buddies from the FSB of Russia. When Sharani Baysarov died in car explosion, the rumors spread that Ramzan Kadyrov took vengeance for the killing of his father. Soon enough, tension broke between Ramzan Kadyrov and Movladi Baysarov. One time, Kadyrov invited three subordinates of Baysarov and offered them to travel to Moscow for a certain mission. In Moscow, all three of them had a visit with FSB colonel Igor Dranetz. During a week they lived in some apartment; Igor Dranetz provided them with food but kept them locked up. He also showed them the scheme of the house and the entrance where Anna Politkovskaya was supposed to appear from.
On the day of Politkovskaya murder, early in the morning, they were brought to the place in three cars. Dranetz said through a radio-set: "this one!" One of the three men shot Politkovskaya dead. All three returned home and went to Ramzan Kadyrov to make a report. After talking to them, Ramzan Kadyrov ordered his personal guards to take them back. On the way, near Khosi-Yurt, the guards drove into the forest and shot all three of the assassins. Movladi Baysarov had no idea where his men had been sent; he found out the truth only after they returned from Moscow. After they never came back from Kadyrov’s, the relatives of these three missing guys came to Baysarov complaining. On the second day the burned bodies of the three men were found and identified. Movladi Baysarov went to see Ramsan Kadyrov and they had a fight. Kadyrov denied sending anybody from Baysarov’s “group” anywhere. He denied even contacting with them. Then Baysarov rebuked Kadyrov reminding him about his brother Zelimhan whom he helped to get out of prison when Zelimhan was arrested on drug charge in Pyatigorsk.
“For your father’s sake I took the local FSB head of Naursky region and his deputy hostage and lost several men in a conflict with Kakiyev!” claimed Baysarov. When Kadyrov heard of his brother (who was a drug addict), he punched Baysarov into face. In response, Movladi swore that Kadyrov would never get away with killing his brother Sharani.
After this scandal Movladi Baysarov switched sides. Now he sided with Alu Alkhanov, even though his “blood-enemy”, S.-M. Kakiyev, worked for him. Taking advantage of his authority in Chechnya, Ramsan Kadyrov disbanded Baysarov’s gang and put him on the “wanted criminals” list. Baysarov’s “Hundred men” eventually surrendered to Kadyrov’s authority, yet, only after being ordered so by their commander, who was living in Moscow at that time
Movladi was devilishly shrewd in manipulating his people. By the end of his life, he still had a gang, consisted of those whom he relied on. Some of them had remained with him since the 1998 “call for arms”. The others were “the newly drafted”, mainly opponents of Kadyrov’s regime in Chechnya. While in Moscow, Baysarov made numerous visits to high offices of FSB, GRU, MVD of Russia, but all in vain. Everybody reminded him taking an FSB colonel, named Ushakov, and his deputy hostage. GRU refused to protect its former agent, throwing him out like a used rag. Being aware of that, Kadyrov dispatched his most loyal men to Moscow to eliminate Baysarov. Not only did he seek to kill his enemy, but also to confiscate his personal property. The only Baysarov’s property remained is an apartment in Taganski District of Moscow officially owned by his older brother. Movladi, being an officer and a gangster at the same time, did not have any legal possessions: he would have difficulty legitimizing his assets. Also the names of his trusted men were well known to his enemies.
One of Baysarov’s financial aides was fired by him for being professionally unfit (actually, for the lack of toughness). Baysarov’s enemies immediately took advantage of the fired aide. They found out from him where Barayev’s estates were, and took everything. The Chechen customs forbid confiscation from the dead. Those who killed their enemies would secretly sustain the orphans they made. However, this custom of the Highlander’s nobility was not observed by Kadyrov’s gang. Baysarov knew far too much; he was as dangerous to Kadyrov as he was to FSB and GRU. It is why he was killed. After murdering Baysarov, Kadyrov had rid of the puppet Alkhanov. At present time the remainder of Baysarov’s gang is eliminated. We, the members of Baysarov’s gang forced to leave Chechnya because of Kadyrov’s hostility, are addressing to all deceived and taken advantage of: draw conclusions from the story.
Timur from Kirov
Aslambeck from Lenin Sovkhoz
Imran Kurkayev (nick-named “Ipan”) from Samashki
Adam (nick-named “Dentist”) from Samashki
Roman Karnukayev from Somashki
Biophys 20:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Claims that [[Ramzan Kadyrov]] organized assassination of Politkovskaya