Template talk:MethodistColleges

message: Are these current affiliations with the church or colleges that have historically been affiliated? I spot a lot of colleges that are no longer afiliated with the church but are still on this list. --Liface 18:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the University of Puget Sound because I'm sure it's no longer affiliated. --Liface 17:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed Dickinson College for the same reason. -MrFizyx 04:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose someone should find a list of currently-sponsored colleges and edit the list. --Liface 04:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a list, go for it.  Seems the creator of this beast has long since disappeared from the 'pedia. -MrFizyx 04:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I removed Duke University since it's no longer affiliated. See .  If this template said "historical ties to the Methodist Church" or "Methodist related," Duke could be included, but it's definitely not "affiliated" -Bluedog423Talk 00:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I go to Puget Sound, and this is incorrect. "The era of President Phillip M. Phibbs (1973-1992) marked a turning point for the institution.  In 1980, the Methodist Church divested its legal ties to the institution while maintaining historical ties."  --Liface 18:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  We should go through the list of these colleges, making sure each is currently affiliated with the methodist church. --Liface 18:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'll rehash my arguments from Pastorwayne's talk page here: This is incorrect. Your logic is that once something is affiliated with something else, it is forever affiliated with that thing! Germany is affiliated with the Nazis! Michael Jordan with the Chicago Bulls, and so on and so forth. These schools divested their affiliation with the Methodist church for a reason. Also this list is outdated, incorrect and should not be relied on. Furthermore, it says "United Methodist" related schools, not affiliated. --Liface 18:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  the list at the General Board is accurate as of 19 September 2006!!  Affiliated and related, in this context, mean the same thing! Pastorwayne 18:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They claim that they're accurate but in fact they're not. I have e-mailed them to ask why Puget Sound remains on their page. --Liface 19:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, let's decide on some guidelines for inclusion. A college must have both legal and financial ties to the Methodist Church to be a methodist college. Sound good? --Liface 19:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusion of colleges

message: I discovered two sources listing Methodist colleges and universities the frist is the International Association of Methodist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities (IAMSCU) founded in 1991 which describes its members as Methodist-related schools, colleges, and universities and those with a Methodist tradition from throughout the world. the other is the directory of untied methodist related colleges, from The Untied Methodist Church in the US. Both are from the General Board of Higher Education websites:
*IAMCU website
*USA Methodist directory
From these sources this template seems pretty accurate, however it is missing several universities - thank you  Astuishin 07:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both the University of Puget Sound and Duke University are listed and the last elections for board of Directors are January 25, 2007 see here so this list seems pretty up to date, any objections to adding them back to the template? - thank you  Astuishin 08:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I sense that most on this  page are sensitive to the usage of the word affiliated so prehaps the template box can be revised to reflect the organization that the colleges are members of. Similar to the Association of Presbyterian Colleges and Universities, and the Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities Is this proposal objectionable? - thank you  Astuishin 18:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea.  How would you retitle the template? -MrFizyx 18:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you chang "Universities and colleges affiliated with the United Methodist Church" to "International Association of Methodist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities (IAMSCU)"?  I don't see how this would be controversial.  This doesn't leave the term "affiliated" up to the reader's own interpretation, and clearly you can source the list of IAMSCU schools.  Good work on this Astuishin. -MrFizyx 18:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources you listed, while seemingly official, are untrustworthy. The University of Puget Sound is not a Methodist institution. "The era of President Phillip M. Phibbs (1973-1992) marked a turning point for the institution.  In 1980, the Methodist Church divested its legal ties to the institution while maintaining historical ties.  Over the next decade, the university moved to an independent board of trustees that assumed sole fiscal responsibility.  "  From Princeton review, Religious affiliation = No affiliation . I think you'll find the same for many other colleges on this list. --Liface 19:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of this does not contradict the indication that Puget Sound is a member of IAMSCU.  Are you suggesting that this is untrue?  Obviously you can clarify the relationship in the Puget Sound article.  -MrFizyx 20:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources from the Princeton Review, and the the Puget Sound website are interesting, and quite relevant, however it is unclear to me how they are mutually exclusive from the ones in my early post. I feel it is possible to be Methodist related while still not having a sectarian affiliation. Both of the IAMSCU and the US Methodist college organizations seem to formally reorganize the historical roots of the institutions list. Liface, do you feel the institutions were included in these organizations unwillingly? or otherwise with little or no consent in the matter? I'm skeptical of that however if there is evidence it should be heard. I would be surprised if the United Methodist Church was doing anything untruthful. However I feel that Liface brings up a valid point, with his concerns on association with the Methodist Church. I second Mrfizyx in suggesting that perhaps the University of Puget Sound's article should mention its Methodist roots but state clearly that it is non-sectarian. Or their could be an accompanying article with this template, that makes clear that not all member institutions religiously related to the Methodist church but they do still have historical ties. Perhaps we can look at the two aforementioned collegiate religious organizations for guidance. Thoughts? - thank you  Astuishin 20:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mrfizyx, yes I think we should change the templage to read: the International Association of Methodist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities - thank you  Astuishin 21:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't object to that renaming to then include all the schools in their list.  However, it makes it more meaningless, IMO, albeit more clear.  I say this because I think only schools that have significant and current ties to the United Methodist Church should have a template.  But if people agree on that renaming, then I'd be okay with adding schools to the template that are in the official list. -Bluedog423Talk 03:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Puget Sound students do continue to qualify for scholarships based on their affiliation the the UMC.  UPS announces a 2003 recipient here, and a 2000 winner from UPS is announce here and other places. -MrFizyx 22:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on the schools historical affiliation, the church is allowed to give out a limited number of scholarships. There is also a Methodist students club on campus and a university chaplain, but many schools have university chaplains. If a school is affiliated, that means to me that the Methodists have legal and financial ties to the institution. --Liface 19:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the other collegiate religious organizations are to be any guide, legal and financial ties to the denomination are not needed. The Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities article states in the second sentence, Although each institution is legally autonomous under their own boards of trustees and separately chartered by their respective states, the 28 schools and two associate member institutions are bonded together by their common Jesuit ideals, and engage in a number of collaborative projects. That is simply one article's threshold for notability perhaps it is not enough. Also, I removed to the term "affiliated" from the box so I did hope the interpretation of that word will cease to be an issue. I feel that several parties still object to the placement of several colleges in the list. The International Association of Methodist-related Schools, seems to be a legitimate organization that is apart of the General board of higher education, a branch of the United Methodist. Its importance seems to be in question however, to me it seems to be a useful way to navigate through colleges with historical ties to Methodist church, as well as ones that continue to acknowledge it by electing to be members of this organization. Not all template boxes are contemporary, I actually can think of many that aren't. Therefore I feel the removed colleges should be place back in. Thoughts? - thank you  Astuishin 05:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No objections, some suggestions.  We should also change the name of the category to reflect the template title.  I'm not certian, but I think all of the schools can be moved to a new category just by editing the template.  Also, the template title should link to a relevant article (or maybe the category for now, which can be given a short description and display references).  I can help you with this later on if you have problems. -MrFizyx 14:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Methodist College organizations 

message: I have done a number of things to make this template box more acceptable to all interested parties; I have restored the names of the several colleges back to the template box, under the title International Association of Methodist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities , I will also start an accompanying article that explains the nature of this organization, and lastly I have shrunk the text of the box to make it less intrusive. Are there objections to placing it on all college pages? - thank you  Astuishin 09:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No objections, some suggestions.  We should also change the name of the category to reflect the template title.  I'm not certian, but I think all of the schools can be moved to a new category just by editing the template.  Also, the template title should link to a relevant article (or maybe the category for now, which can be given a short description and display references).  I can help you with this later on if you have problems. -MrFizyx 14:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding template box back

message: An article on either the International Association of Methodist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities or the General Board of Higher Education and Ministry within the UMC would go a long way to establishing that this this list were notable and clairifying what being on the list means for the schools included.  It might also help explain the apparent contradiction of a school being "Methodist-related" despite having severed fiscal and leagal ties to the United Methodist Church.  Any such article would require some reliable sources be found independent of the organization itself to meet the general criteria for notability.  Finding such sources may not be easy. -MrFizyx 21:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is collegiate organization book that I access to, but cannot recall by name, that presents a small bio for the IAMUC, perhaps that could be used. - thank you  Astuishin 22:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is question of credibility the General Board of Higher Education and Ministry is accountable to the General Conference  of the United Methodist Church and at least one the websites is hosted by the GBHEM, the General Conference is the governing branch of the United Methodist Church, which with over 5 million members, is the largest branch of the Methodist Church. Does anyone feel the GBHEM is not certifiable? - thank you  Astuishin 17:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, obviously the United Methodist Church is notable.  There was some debate a while back though as to if subjects on the list of Unitarian Universalist Independent Affiliate organizations deserved their own article or not.  I think this resulted in the deletion of several articles.  All that I'm really saying is to proceed with some caution, make the meaning of the list explicit and source it as best as you can. -MrFizyx 14:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  notability and meaning of the list 

message: When the template title was changed in February, from "Universities and colleges affiliated with the United Methodist Church" to "International Association of Methodist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities", we over-stepped the scope of the schools actually listed.  The IAMSCU would also include other flavors of Methodism that are not "United Methodist", e.g. :Category:Universities and colleges affiliated with the Wesleyan Church and :Category:Universities and colleges affiliated with the African Methodist Episcopal Church (which uses this template)
I now propose:
# That the template should have the innocuous title, "Universities and colleges related historically or currently to the United Methodist Church".
# That the category likewise be changed from :Category:Universities and colleges affiliated with the United Methodist Church to :Category:Universities and colleges related historically or currently to the United Methodist Church.
I realize:
* It's cumbersome wording, but it approximates the convention in :Category:Christian universities and colleges while not leaving much to interpretation.
* It is too bad we have no source to distinguish historical and current affiliations.  It may be that the UMC maintains a broad spectrum of relations with these schools and some don't fall neatly into either category.
* The official source for the template would be this one, which could be cross-checked with schools tagged "United Methodist" in this one.
Is there any opposition to this language? -MrFizyx 21:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not two separate templates? :Category:Universities and colleges historically affiliated with the United Methodist Church and :Category:Universities and colleges affiliated with the United Methodist Church? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Liface (talk • contribs) 00:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As noted above, we have no source to reliably separate the two lists (historic & current).  The United Methodist Church has a set of criteria and a review process for the list it maintains and it does not appear to distinguish between the two.  If we do it ourselves it borders on original research and we would have a difficult time building consensus.. -MrFizyx 20:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The inclusion parameters seem good.  The title is too cumbersome.  "Related" is vague/inclusive enough to include "currently" as well as "historically."  Can't we just use "related," and skip the other two words? Pastorwayne 11:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personnally I agree with you, but it seems that a few editors even dislike "related".  We could leave it open ended and let the larger community decide in a WP:CfD.  -MrFizyx 20:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revised proposal (due to template title problem)