Talk:Melinda French Gates

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved, per WP:NAMECHANGES. This is not a vote, so I'm looking at the arguments made. Based on the evidence presented during the discussion, sources published recently (after the name change) tend to use the surname French Gates. Comments that don't address WP:NAMECHANGES, the policy on when/if to retitle following a name change, are discounted.   (t · c) buidhe 08:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Melinda Gates →  – WP:NAMECHANGES; she has started referring to herself as "Melinda French Gates" (, ) and many RS have followed (, , , , ); see also discussion at #Name 'Melinda French Gates' and not 'Melinda Ann Gates'? ― Tartan357 Talk 02:34, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: And many of your own sources contradict your arguments by using "Melinda Gates" as her name, negating the need to offer other sources. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

text: I see no indication here that her name has actually changed. Her full legal name seems to have always been "Melinda French Gates" and her common name is "Melinda Gates". Even the sources you cited as evidence for this move also use her more common name "Melinda Gates". Bill Gates signs his name as "William H. Gates III", that doesn't mean we should move his article. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:18, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , the thing about Bill Gates is a misrepresentation of the arguments I'm making here. I am NOT suggesting we base a move on an obscure, full legal name only used in formal settings (as would be the case for "William H. Gates III"). She has chosen "Melinda French Gates" as her common name now. It's even her new name on her Twitter profile, which is among the most informal of settings. It's her name—she gets to decide what it is, and she's clearly made this change across her online presence as a way to set herself apart from her estranged husband. Bill Gates, on the other hand, still likes to be called Bill Gates. Do not make straw man arguments. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

text: ,  is a bit dubious as she has changed her name on all her social media, and it's been reported on in the Vox source I provided, among others. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You're extrapolating an awful lot from her twitter page. Have you actually asked her what she wants to be referred to as or what she would prefer her Wikipedia article title to be? Did she issue a press release saying that from now on her public name will be this as some artists will do when they try to change thei name? Regardless, it's not totally up to her. She can state a preference (which I'm not convinced she's actually done), but it's up to reliable sources as to what they choose to refer to her as most commonly going forward. Which is why we should be waiting before making this type of move for a very high profile figure article. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:59, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , she made the change on all her social media accounts and her profile at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation website right after she announced her divorce. Are you telling me you think that was a coincidence? ― Tartan357 Talk 18:56, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: When they change the name of the foundation to the "Bill and Melinda French Gates Foundation" let me know. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , which has nothing to do with the point I just made about her making some very public changes to her name immediately following the divorce announcement. Changing the name of the foundation will require Bill's consent and a lengthy legal process. Melinda changing her own name is a matter of self-identification. And, it would be the Bill Gates and Melinda French Gates (as sources such as WSJ have been referring to the pair) Foundation, since I doubt Bill would be too keen on adding "French" to his last name. ― Tartan357 Talk 19:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not just a matter of self-identification. There is a legal process for changing one's name. Regardless, it's still a matter of what sources do and how she is most commonly known going forward. As I have pointed out before, this is exactly like the precedent of "Hillary Clinton" vs. "Hillary Rodham Clinton". Rreagan007 (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , that's not precedent. Hillary Clinton is not relevant here. See WP:OTHERCONTENT. But yes, I agree that it's the sources that matter, which is why I provided several that have adopted the change. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:29, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Precedent does matter per WP:CONSISTENT. Wikipedia:OTHERCONTENT is merely an essay, which is neither a Wikipedia policy nor a guideline. And your own sources are contradictory and inconsistent in their usage. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

text: , where in WP:CONSISTENT does it say individual RM discussions create binding precedent? The nature of Wikipedia (being openly editable by anyone), means such a system would not work. WP:JustAnEssay; I cited OTHERCONTENT not as policy, but as an explanation of this idea. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Bottom line: arguments in RM discussions must be based on article title policy, nothing else. It says so right in the RM header. If you want to debate what's common in the sources, fine. But please, don't continue this made-up nonsense about a Hillary Clinton "precedent", which has no basis in policy. ― Tartan357 Talk 21:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is exactly why we should be waiting on making this type of change. There is no consistency to usage. Wikipedia follows what the sources do, we don't lead them. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

text: , we do have a reliable source saying that; the  Wall Street Journal uses "Ms. French Gates". That trumps your assumption. ― Tartan357 Talk 06:17, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: “Ms. French Gates has pushed for governance changes in the wake of the divorce filing ...”. That’s pretty impressive, reputable source uses “French Gates” as her surname. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: And here the Wall Street Journal calls her "Ms. Gates": "Ms. Gates consulted with divorce lawyers roughly two years before..." So we have conflicting usage from the exact same source. Which is exactly why it's way too soon to move this article, as clearly usage as to her last name hasn't been sorted out yet. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:07, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , my source is much more recent. ― Tartan357 Talk 20:36, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes, 18 days is much more recent (sarcasm). Rreagan007 (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , it is in the timeline of the divorce. Also, be nice. ― Tartan357 Talk 03:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

text: , regardless, the immediate issue about whether "French" is part of her surname vs. a middle name has been resolved by the source I provided. ― Tartan357 Talk 01:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No it most certainly has not. Here's a source more recent than yours that refers to her as "Melinda French Gates" and then in the next sentence refers to her as "Ms. Gates". Rreagan007 (talk) 02:54, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , well, you're the one who chose to change the subject from the middle name debate back to what surname is most common in the sources. Also, I'll take The Wall Street Journal's reporting over that of Opera News any day. ― Tartan357 Talk 03:42, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt the Wall Street Journal is privy to some special incite into whether she's using "French" as a middle name, which would be much more common, or as a double last name, which would be very uncommon. The point is different sources are doing things differently. We're way too close to the divorce to know how this will eventually shake out. Regardless, it doesn't make much difference either way if it's a middle name or double last name, as we often have articles titled with just a first and single last name in the case of people from a Hispanic background who have both a paternal and maternal last name if they are more commonly known by a single last name. The bottom line is that she's still more commonly known as "Melinda Gates", so that's what the article title should be. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , so, even though I've provided a source, as you asked, to show that French is part of her new surname, you're still saying we should just go by your assumption that  and therefore the WSJ is probably wrong? Seriously, the WSJ outweighs your personal opinion. If you really want to keep doubting the WSJ's reporting, which most editors regard very highly, WP:RSN is the proper venue for that. I think I know how that will go, but you're welcome to try. Your latter point about "Melinda Gates" possibly being more common is the more pertinent matter of dispute. I've provided several high-quality sources to back up "Melinda French Gates", as well as citing WP:NAMECHANGES, which advises us to err on the side of respecting changes in self-identification and to give extra weight to sources after the change. You and others have provided some sources as well, but they seem to be of lower quality, such as E! News and Opera News. ― Tartan357 Talk 06:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 30 May 2021