Talk:Trilateral Commission

message: In the interests of true global self-actualization, I find it necessary that the Trilateral Commission disband.
CarolSeerCarolSeer (talk) 17:52, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: While Chomsky is prone to overstatement, "extremely hostile" overstates the attitude of the Commission toward democracy, if the cited Huntington report is the basis for a judgment about the entire organization at the time.  Chomsky himself quoted phrases for their reports like "a greater degree of moderation in democracy" to address an "excess of democracy" in the Sixties.  He is critical of the TriLat vision of democracy, which seems to him vaguely feudal. (See , an analysis with perhaps fewer of the cheap shots you see in some of his recent writings.)  It can be argued (and was, by Alexander Hamilton) that regulating excesses of democracy is very much what constitutional representative government is about, among other things.  As for a democracy that is somewhat "feudal", I still see that here in Japan, though it's not even as strong as it was 10 years ago.  It's always about what sort of accommodations have to be made for legitimizing government through some reflection of some part of public opinion.  In the context of the times, and from the perspective of radical politics, it wasn't hard to imagine that groups like the Trilats were trying to design "roach hotels for revolutionaries", to find some way to reduce the influence of radical politics on public opinion and the status quo. Yakushima 09:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm going to have to say no, because the Trilateral Commission wasn't founded until 44 years after the Great Depression started :) You might be thinking of the Council on Foreign Relations.--Gloriamarie 17:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The organization does not do much! It's a discussion group, plain and simple, with little impact on real world events (save its major project of better involving Asia in worldwide conversations). That is why we are limiting the size of this article in accordance with the TC's actual relevance! Sailingfanblues (talk) 22:04, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: General article discussion

message: Need I say more Zbigniew Brzezinski?
Trilateral Commission on “The Crisis of Democracy”, make up your mind about it, I think it is very easy.
See from this extract:
"Revitalizing Trilateral Democracies
Introduction: Troubled Democracies
(without figures, tables or footnotes)
Two decades ago Michel J. Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watanuki reported to the Trilateral Commission on “The Crisis of Democracy” that, they argued, confronted the nations of Europe, North America, and Japan, Their starting point was the widespread commentary during the 1960s and 1970s that envisaged “a bleak future for democratic government”—an image of “the disintegration of civil order, the breakdown of social discipline, the debility of leaders, and the alienation of citizens. [...]  
1. the surge of radical political activism that swept the West in the 1960s, beginning with campus protests in the United States about civil rights and the Vietnam War and then echoed in such far-flung and momentous episodes as the events of May 1968 in France and the “Hot Autumn” later that year in Italy; and
2. the economic upheavals triggered by the oil crisis of 1973-74 that were to engender a decade and more of higher inflation, slower growth, and worsening unemployment"
...[read more in TC's full article, the original report  THE CRISIS OF DEMOCRACY Task Force Report #8 "Text of Introductory Chapter
(without footnotes) A. THE CURRENT PESSIMISM ABOUT DEMOCRACY" New York University Press (© 1975)
Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington and Joji Watanuki ISBN: 0-8147-1305-3
US Political Thought Notes on Samuel P. Huntington, Chapter III: “The United States” in The Crisis of Democracy, by Michel Crozier, Samuel P. Huntington, and Joji Watnuki
This is a condensation and arrangement of Huntington's argument, not a commentary upon it.
Critical commentary on TC
http://www.ied.info/books/www/intropart3.html --203.166.96.239 12:55, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crisis of Democracy

message: How are the names on the membership list verified, other than having a person whose name appears on the list make known his or her membership in a public statement?
patsw 15:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Declassified UK has published extensive membership lists obtained from The Trilateral Commission here, after the end of the article. Keir Starmer was a member from 2018 through 2021 and is listed as a former member thereafter. Geoff Pointer (talk) 05:22, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

text: Anonymous editor, you have just conceded that as entered, Giuliani's membership is not verified. I am under no obligation to verify the edits made by someone else. He or she must provide verification. patsw 02:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the above, I'm going to give this 2 days and then significantly pare down the membership lists. Any dissenting voices, please post! Sailingfanblues (talk) 21:57, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Began the cleanup. This will take a while as going through this long list is arduous work. Please do not revert w/o first discussion here. Any grammar and organizational help welcome. Sailingfanblues (talk) 19:10, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Membership List 

message: I believe they have a logo of some sort, with three arrows pointing to the center. If it is real (and not just made up by some con-nut, it should be included...--213.101.247.115 13:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Logo

message: What is the purpose or objectives of this organization?  How often do they meet? What do they produce i.e. meeting notes or reports?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.12.121.188 (talk • contribs) 12:29, 18 November 2006
:read their book The Crisis of Democracy and the Chomsky essay that is linked to in the wiki article: http://www.chomsky.info/books/priorities01.htm—Preceding unsigned comment added by LamontCranston (talk • contribs) 105:29, 10 July 2007
::I think they mean, what is the aim of the Commission? I can not tell by looking at the page. JoeHenzi 07:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe that the aim of the Commission is to act as a Global Intellectual Aristocracy.  If this is true, as long as their own ethics compel them to serve the public good, they are an essential hidden element of all democracies.  It is obvious that democracy only means government via propaganda, as the irrational/impressionable masses are the ones who hold power.  And so if somebody doesn't steer the perceptions of the masses towards views that encourage civilization, a charismatic demagogue such as Hitler will gladly steer their views towards barbarism.  Philosopher8 11:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny, I'm sure the masses in Nazi Germany would have said Hitler was "essential" to preserving "civilization."  Don't be so narrow-sited.  98.221.120.84 (talk) 08:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do they do? 

message: The purpose of the geolink in the page is not clear, plus it seems to break the page design (see source).--Nicolas1981 22:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The geolink templates have been shortened. I hope it is tolerable.--SallyForth123 04:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geolink 

message: There are a lot of unsourced quotes from various unnamed "documents" and other individuals, especially in the "Activity history" section. I'm going to get rid of all of them if they can't be sourced within the next month. Matt T. (talk) 11:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced quotes 

message: Clearly fails NPOV with a large criticism section and virtually nothing positive. I've trimmed the criticism section some, but it is still unbalanced. Dougweller (talk) 15:29, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am slowly working through this NPOV issue. I've already added one positive issue to the 'activity history' section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sailingfanblues (talk • contribs) 23:11, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: It would be a good thing if anybody could explain how Pope John Paul II ended up giving a speech to the members of the Trilateral Commission. It seems a bit strange to have a bishop of Rome giving suggestions to such a materialist organization like that.  ADM (talk) 09:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pope John Paul II

message: In the article on the Bilderberg Group there is a cross-reference to this article that says:
:Trilateral Commission, established by David Rockefeller in 1972 after the Bilderberg Group refused to include Japan
Yet nothing in this article mentions that as any part of the reason for Rockefeller's creating the Trilateral Commission. This article implies that the Trilateral Commission was created because Rockefeller floated the idea of an International Commission of Peace and Prosperity at a Bildeberg meeting where "the idea was widely accepted, but elsewhere, it got a cold reception."
The two descriptions seem to contradict each other or at least talk past each other. This article suggests that the idea that became the Trilateral Commission was widely accepted by the Bildeberg group and that it was the "cold reception" elsewhere that is it's raison d'etre. The Bildeberg article indicates hostility (to the inclusion of Japan, not to a Peace and Prosperity Commission) by the Bildeberg group led to the creation of the Trilateral Commission. Which is it, or is there another explanation? Ileanadu (talk) 08:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bildeberg Group & Japan's Importance to its Formation 

message: I can't think of a policy or guideline related reason to add this to names, it seems to be just editors thinking 'I think this means something'. Dougweller (talk) 08:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed. Sailingfanblues (talk) 21:14, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bilderberg attendees 

message: I have gone through the supposed citations for membership, very few actual support what they purport to cite. For instance, multiple names included are tied to the obituary for Hedley Donavon--the obit itself never mentions the Trilateral Commission once.  My proposal is to excise all membership logs (less those with appropriate citations to give some depth) and merely list current executive heads. The other listed committees (beyond directorships) are also meaningless--few included have wikipedia entries themselves, fewer correct citations. I am convinced that most of this misinformation was inputted by Trilateral Commission conspiracy theorists attempting to build an argument that this minor think tank controls the world and betting that no one would ever read through the page's citations. 
Again, I am leaving 3 days for conversation. Sailingfanblues (talk) 22:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree wholeheartedly with what you are doing, indeed it is required by our WP:BLP policy. And we should never use sources such as lewrockwell.com for something like this. Dougweller (talk) 04:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And looking at their official site, there's a membership list, so there is absolutely no need for us to duplicate that. Maybe spell out its existence in the EL section. Dougweller (talk) 18:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Purging Membership Section

message: Upon looking up the texts referred to in this section, besides the texts by actual members of the TC, the works seem to be non-reliable sources. Robert Gaylon Ross (per quick google search) is apparently a conspiracy theorist writer extraordinaire--frequently interviewed by Alex Jones. Bill Wilkerson has no google history beyond this page and his book sounds like more CT work. As I understand it, a visitor here is to find reputable sources cited and referred to. I propose dropping those suspect texts and adding for the individual visiting this page to figure out what's up with the Trilateral Commission and CTs Jonathan Kay's wonderful book on the subject (Among the Truthers). Sailingfanblues (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Further Reading Section

message: The introduction to the criticism section of the article begins with: 
"Not unlike reactions to the United Nations or other organizations created to foster international cooperation, a number of prominent thinkers and politicians have criticized the Trilateral Commission as encroaching on national sovereignty." 
Is this a very suitable beginning of a section on criticism? Because it seems as if they are being equalized to the United Nations (in some respects at least, which are apparently essential enough since the section begins in such a way) which I find to be a faulty comparison since they are in many ways essentially different (Membership quota and history as two examples), and in this particular context does it come off negatively since the criticism of the Trilateral does not apply for the UN and vice versa, which also goes just as well for these unspecified 'other organizations'. 
In the matter of 'fostering international cooperation', if this is the case it ought already been mentioned in preceding sections and made aware to the reader rather than having to have that restated in the criticism section conveying the feeling of a defensive bias.
These two together taken convey bias and faulty reasoning unsuitable for any -pedia, wherefore I shall omit it and instead keep the following part of the sentence i.e. "A number of prominent thinkers (...)". Since it does not contain any of the deficiencies above mentioned.
If wikipedia members find unsuitable, please reverse my action but please do justify your reasons.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.116.197.145 (talk) 02:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting alt. revising the introduction line in criticism section? 

message: "The group is chaired by three individuals, one from each of the regions represented. The current chairmen are former U.S. Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs Joseph S. Nye, Jr. and Chief Corporate Adviser, Fuji Xerox Company, Ltd. Yotaro Kobayashi."
The article says there are three chairmen, but it names only two. Is there a third? 66.68.84.127 (talk) 22:09, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chairmen 

message: It says "citation needed" on rockefeller as the founder.  
Here is a reliable source for him being the founder.  I would do it myself, but I don't know hot to edit these things."http://www.trilateral.org/go.cfm?do=Page.View&pid=21"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.215.124.52 (talk) 06:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Brilliant, I've added it. Thanks very much. Dougweller (talk) 10:51, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  founder 

message: I don't understand how Chomsky can have critizised the organisation in the 60ies, when it started in the 70ies. Somethings wrong in that paragraph.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.242.163.84 (talk) 12:46, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: He was criticising the 1975 book The Crisis of Democracy which discussed the 60s. Dougweller (talk) 14:06, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crticisms 

message: Why on earth would anybody take Chomsky at face value, and present this in wikipedia's voice?
This is no place for polemics. bobrayner (talk) 20:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the problem. You don't consider those involved as being elite, or do you don't regard the countries as capitalist? Gob Lofa (talk) 19:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "Sensing a discord among the elites of the wealthy ..". This is poorly written. Who is doing the "Sensing"? David Rockefellar? Or the Trilateral Commission itself? That makes no sense. Maybe the founders. But did they "sense" it, or "imagine" it. Just not good writing, although good enough for government work. GangofOne (talk) 22:47, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chomsky again 

message: As I see it, the point of labeling someone like Alex Jones as a "right wing conspiracy theorists" is to contextualize why his opinion is being included, because otherwise it's not worth mentioning. Alex Jones isn't a reliable source for statements of fact on Wikipedia, and as a political commentator he produces a boatload of drivel about everything imaginable, so the only reason to include his position is as a right wing conspiracy theorist. There needs to be a very clearly explained reason why he's being mentioned at all, and the label is one part of that process. Regardless of how anyone feels about the people mentioned in this article, comparing Alex Jones to Noam Chomsky is an extreme mismatch. The idea that they must be treated exactly the same is not productive and ignores a great deal of context in service of specific point of view. Trying to treat them as being exactly parallel will lead to false balance. Grayfell (talk) 06:46, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't have it both ways, either the political labels apply to all the entities that were mentioned in both of the criticism sub-sections or they don't apply to them at all. The main problem with your argument is that just because you think that Jones is a right wing conspiracy theorist and Chomsky isn't, then a comparison of Jones to Chomsky must be an extreme mismatch; it doesn't occur to you that there exist alternative comparisons to Jones and Chomsky which are equally as valid as your Jones-Chomsky comparison...and even if your comparison was valid, it still wouldn't justify the double standards of your political labels. You'll also note that what you are doing doesn't stop with Jones as you also reverted the political label for Charles Krauthammer from "political commentator" to "conservative pundit" even though his policy positions have provoked a variegated description of his political views. Flaggerton (talk) 20:38, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

text: In a further attempt to reach a compromise on this issue I've tagged the labels for Jones, the JBS, Krauthammer and Chomsky with the POV template. Should this compromise-building measure fail, I should note for the record that the first batch of edits which I made that initiated this dispute () between myself and Grayfell was to just get rid of these labels completely. Flaggerton (talk) 21:17, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I was trying to explain why there is no "both ways". Political labels do not need to apply to all entities. The article is quoting a joke by Charles Krauthammer in which he specifically mocks his status as a conservative boogieman. The line only makes sense if the reader understands this beforehand. The label is providing important context to assist the reader in understanding the quote. Likewise, Jones is being contextualized as a believer in the conspiracy theories around the Trilateral Commission. It definitely had occurred to me that there are alternative comparisons between Jones and Chomsky, but Wikipedia doesn't treat them as equally valid. If you don't agree, your disagreement is with WP:RS, and WP:NPOV, and WP:FRINGE and all of the other alphabet soup used to describe Wikipedia's core philosophy. Grayfell (talk) 22:40, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It really is time for Flagggerton to stop adding inappropriate labels to persons mentioned in this article. They are essentially this person's WP:POV opinions and have been reverted by several experienced editors. It is also time to stop making comments such as "drive by reverts" regarding actions by other editors. My advice to Flaggerton is to stop edit warring now. David J Johnson (talk) 22:59, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Krauthammer isn't denying being conservative, he's making fun of silliness of the conspiracy theories he's been lumped-in with. It doesn't appear that you understand the quote, which makes your claims untenable. Context matters. Inordinate? The complaints I receive seem perfectly ordinate to me, and your personal attacks against me over unrelated matters says more about you than it does about the Trilateral Commission. Grayfell (talk) 23:51, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labels 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I suggest the following addition: 
 The Commision's members had phenomenal success in key politial and economic positions; 7 out 12 U.S. presidents and vice presidents, 10 out of 17 National Security Advisers and 6 out 8 World Bank presidents, were members of the Commision.
Tshuva (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but once again; you need to quote reliable, secondary, sources before inserting any information of this kind - otherwise it will be deleted. Please see and read WP:RS. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 15:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to the lead section