Talk:Alternative comedy

message: I would like to help clean up this article, but there isn't a clear definition as to what 'alternative comedy' actually is. Could someone who knows explain it either in discussion or even the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.105.56.13 (talk) 13:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition needed

message: If suggest you read through previous versions of this document. Basically, it's been written by two people. The first person wrote the bulk of the article and the second person added in some useful info but hasn't done in a very structured way. You need a Definition heading, and then a History heading. Despite what you say, the definition of alternative comedy is in there: (quote) "In terms of content, alternative comedy tended to rely not on racial or other stereotypes (which was the mainstay of the previous generation The Comedians-style comics), or even standard punchline jokes. Instead it used personal observation and intellectual humour" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.53.142 (talk) 10:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Read the history 

message: I've created Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) to help editors in deciding the notability of comedy- and humor-related articles. Please help hammer it into shape. --Chris Griswold  (☎☓) 08:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:Notability (comedy) 

message: I wonder about the neutrality of the following.
"Though alternative comics push the envelope and change the form for the better - Demetri Martin and Improv Everywhere come to mind - alternative rooms also have hack comics. While bad club comics often touch on hackneyed topics during their act (relationships, airplanes, the French), these hacks have made once-interesting alternative tropes trite (absurdist wordplay, cultural references to '80's pop, geek culture or hipster trends)."
that is a quote.  The phrase Change the form for "the better" is subjective.  Demitri Martin has made no changes to the form of standup, everything he's noted for was done before him (playing music while doing comedy (Jack Benny, Henny Youngman, Victor Borge), short one liners (henny youngman, stephen wright, mitch hedberg) use of visual aids and props (need i really list everyone from vaudeville until now who's done that?).  That isn't to say he's not a noted alternative standup, but that he personally hasn't changed standup in any noticable way.  Also, that any change is debatably "for the better" or "for the worse" is not neutral.  
ALso, the absurdist wordplay, cultural references to the '80s pop/geek culture, or hipster trends are not clearly defined nor are examples given.
Absurdist wordplay, as based on linguistics, plays into the "expectation/deviation" format of comedy joke henri bergson , and has been a constant in comedy since at least Aristophanes (menander used it, plautus was a MASTER of it.) At least, if i read "absurdist wordplay" as the use of non-obvious puns, tricks of verbal tense and semantic logical conflicts within a single thought, and paradoxical or abstruse phrasings (ex. To have sex into a woman)
Second, cultural references to the 80s pop culture clearly is a modern in use, as the 80s only ended 16 years ago, but reference to the past/childhood is not new, and it's debatable whether simply referring to another decade's pop culture ever constituted "alternative' comedy. Comedians have referenced out of date, formerly 'cool' but no longer 'cool' trends, things remembered fondly, and fads, for the entire last century. This is neither new, nor alternative. Perhaps, as the assertion has been made that "alternative comedy" demonstrates a generational divide, the 80s references falling out of fashion is an indication of the aging people who lived during the 80s no longer being part of the "young' crowd that creates alt. comedy. So perhaps, 90s cultural references will supersede them.
Regardless, it seems ridiculous to consider referencing Transformers as "alternative" comedy, any more than Bill Cosby referencing Howdy Doody would be alternative. Reference comedy has, among comedians, been considered "hackneyed" for a long time, before it being specifically tied to G.I. Joe and Popples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.191.69.18 (talk) 23:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: UPDATE: The section in question has been deleted. The multiple errors in spelling, capitilization and punctuation in the paragraphs above are so voluminous that I have decided to leave the author responsible for correcting them, though I must confess that "rediculous" is a shining example of absurdist wordplay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.132.20 (talk) 01:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality of the final section 

message: It should be noted that for an alternative comic to rise to comedic prominence does not mean that they rose to any public consciousness.- can this be deleted on account of it's being irrelevant?
Denverjsmith 00:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: removal

message: How about including a reference to Dave Allen as a precursor to alternative comedy?  Alternative comics cite him as an influence, e.g.:
http://www.unesco.org/courier/1999_05/uk/dires/txt1.htm
And the observational style of much of his comedy was ahead of its time.
Peteinterpol (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dave Allen's influence on Alternative Comedy 

message: I removed this from the article and bring it here for discussion:
:Currently, alternative comedy is experiencing a renaissance in cities such as Seattle, Chicago, and Vancouver.  Necessarily, what is alternative to one generation is staid to another, and the young comedians in the East Village and Toronto have put their new stamp on what is considered "not mainstream".  The idea of a "non-physical venue" is also on the rise, with downloadable acts in the form of a video podcast using the viewer's iPod or computer as the new stage.  Such groups as The Lonely Island, Crazy Asian Food and Train of Thought Sketch Comedy have been able to promote their unique brand of humor on the video sharing website Youtube, in the form of short skits and vignettes that you can either download or stream from their respective sites.  Without the pressure of renting a performance space or getting a "bad performance time" the focus is put on providing a non-traditional form of comedy that not only plays with content, but with concept and medium as well.
In addition to having no references, this is written in a highly POV form.  In addition, my guess is that the comedy groups mentioned here are not very notable---Crazy Asian Food, for example, has been added to a number of different articles by an anonymous user bent on promoting them.  A section of this sort is rife for abuse because it is too vague.  If any of this can be sourced, fine, otherwise, it should be left out. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 04:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major alternative comedy scenes 

message: This article needs a lot more references.  Based on the refs I just added, it looks like "alternative comedy" is like alternative music: a term that meant something specific in the early 1980s in certain places, but is vague enough to be redefined each decade or so.  Television and other global mediums have help influence various regional definitions, but the regional definitions are distinct enough that I think the best we can do is give each country its own section, which is what I did.  From the sources I saw the UK has a pretty good claim to the term "alternative comedy" first getting widely used in the early 1980s so I phrased it that way in my changes.  It appears that once the term gained momentum, comedians and then audiences started retrospectively redefining comedians from earlier eras as alt comedians (e.g. Steve Martin, who clearly predates Ben Elton, and the numerous men like Spike Milligan who get called the grandfathers of alt comedy).  67.100.127.146 (talk) 01:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganzed the article 

message: Quikc note : is the "definition" part really necessary? A regular comedian would rely on all of these aspects. Not just an "alternative" comedian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.170.39.33 (talk) 10:48, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition 

message: Second wave perhaps. Jimthing (talk) 05:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing like second wave, that was in about 1984. But he does belong here I agree.Kaleeyed (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bill Hicks anyone?  

message: I've just cut out more than half of the article.  Much of the article had been unsourced for a year and a half, and a good portion of that was definitely original research (people were describing comedians, shows, and clubs as alternative without any references or back up; my guess is the info just crept in over time).  Any of that info can certainly be added back in if it is sourced.  I still share the concern of the "Synthesis" tag, in that I'm not sure that all of the different sources are using "alternative comedy" to actually define a genre of comedy, and instead may just be using it as a general adjective.  Qwyrxian (talk) 12:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work Qwyrxian.  Still needs a lot of work this article, it's so rambling and bitty and jumps about all over the place. It needs paragraphs and historical sections, mentioning precusers, first second and third wave. I would like to see people referencing actual articles and books instead of just writing off the top of their heads.  Some of the tone is quite poor, needs formalising.  I have an extremely good book on the subject, Didn't You Kill My Mother In Law? by Roger Wilmut which is referenced in the article once but the book is not named.  It is in my opinion the definitive book on the subject, although it only goes to 1989.  But for early formation and the background it is unbeatable and needs to be referenced more to make this article "stand up" (pardon the pun). Kaleeyed (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gutting of article 

message: I find this section problematic.  It is all based around the 2000s, do these comics really identify themselves as alternative comedy?  I think the difference is in the US it was never called alternative comedy in the 70s, it was just called 'standup'.  Whilst I think alternative comedy may have been a definition that evolved in England, the Comedy Store London was set up by a British man called Peter Rosengard, who had visited LA and and Comedy Store there, and decided to try and import an American style of standup to the UK. When the Comedy Store opened, standup in the US sense did not exist in England. There were working men's club comics, but their style was very different, forulaic, although some could be very inventive within that formula.  So although alternative comedy as a defintition is an British thing, it is very influenced by US standup culture, although there are British precursers to Alt Com, Billy Connelly, Victoria Wood and Tony Allen. There needs to be mention of 70s and 80s comedians such as Robin Williams, John Ratzenberger (yes really!) and Steve Martin, who were cited influences on British alternative comediansKaleeyed (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Alternative Comedy 

message: It looks like there are two entirely different meanings to "alternative comedy". The British version was a fairly clearly defined movement within a British context with a radical agenda (politically and comedically)in the late 1970s and 1980s, and has been documented in a number of books.  If there is an American movement called "alternative comedy" it should go in a separate article. These are not the same things.OsFish (talk) 05:49, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest splitting the article in two: UK alternative comedy (clearly defined) and...the other stuff. 

message: The reason the likes of Alexei Sayle are called the father of alternative comedy, in the early 80s, despite such  avante-garde alternatives to the mainstream as Spike Milligan/Goons/Python much earlier, is that they often dealt with issues of politics and class (especially working-class concerns) that were ignored by earlier comedians.  Yet, not a single mention of this in the article.  Pretty big omission, making for a rather skewed article.  2.31.164.21 (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Class and politics missing