Talk:Jewish views of Jesus/Judaism's views of Jesus

message: We'll shorten the wording later and move all details into the main article later. For now, concentrate on content. Wherever possible, there should be a biblical reference, an authoritative rabbinic reference, and perhapse a decent contemporary discussion of it.
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Judaism cannot consider Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah because he did not fulfill the Jewish requirements. Most obviously, today wars between nations still happen, and this is impossible if the Messiah has truly arrived (Isaiah 2.4, Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Melakhim 12.3). At the very least  , Israel must live in peace (absolutely literal peace, with no more wars). Judaism cannot accept certain Christian doctrines concerning the Christian Messiah - especially the Trinity and the Incarnation because they are heretical for Judaism's understanding of monotheism. (Deuteronomy 6.4, Rambam, Ha-Ikkerim or 13 Principles of Faith, Second Principle.) "In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. The idea of the trinity is absolutely incompatible with Judaism." []. "For us in the Jewish community anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate." (Contemporary American Reform Responsa, 68.) 
Nevertheless Judaism can distinguish between Jesus the person and Christianity the religion. Judaism considers the possibility Jesus himself does not believe in the non-Jewish doctrines of Christianity and sometimes credits Paul of Tarsus for inventing them. Therefore, while Christianity is absolutely incompatable with Judaism, Judaism can hold a variety of opinions with regard to Jesus, depending on what he himself personally believed.
* Despite numerous references to "Edom" (אדום), which is sometimes a reference to "Rome" (רומא) or Christianity, the Talmud is largely silent about the historical Jesus. There are a few stray passages that probably do not refer to him but can be reinterpreted midrashically to do so.
* Albeit for entertainment value only, the Medieval Toldot Yeshu cites the Talmud to weave a brutal but funny parody of the Christian view of Jesus.  Accordingly, Yeshu ישו (Jesus) is a “bastard” child of a scoundrel Jewish father named Yosef Ben Pandera (Joseph). Yeshu forsakes the Torah and becomes a “false prophet” who worships a “brick”. He learns “Egyptian” magic to cast spells to convince other Jews he is the Messiah and thus creates havoc within the Jewish religion. By contrast, Paul is a righteous Jew (who is also understood to be the same person as Peter). Paul only pretends to become one of the followers of Yeshu in order to trick them into becoming a non-Jewish religion. By splitting off Christianity, Paul saves the day and restores peace to Judaism. 
* The Rambam knows of the Toldot Yeshu but rejects it. (Iggeret Teman.) He gives a somewhat opposite viewpoint, which is more sympathetic toward Jesus and less sympathetic toward Paul. Accordingly, Yeshua ישוע (Jesus) is a legitimate child of a non-Jewish father and a Jewish mother, and his birth is “kosher”. The Rambam uses carefully nonjudgmental language to describe Yeshua and distinguishes Yeshua’s own views from the views of his followers. (Iggeret Teman.) By contrast, the Jewish followers who later abandon the Torah - which would include Paul - are the “renegades of Israel” who “stumbled”, according to the  prophecy of Daniel. (Mishneh Torah, Milkhot 11.10.) After splitting off, the hostility inherent in their Christianity turns out to be a disaster for the Jewish people.
Especially after the Holocaust, the need to coexist with Christianity (like other non-Jewish religions) influences Judaism to know more about the historical Jesus. This knowledge helps Judaism to counter the hostile claims by Christianity and to promote a common understanding with Christianity. Judaism can distinguish between Jesus the Jewish person and Christianity the non-Jewish religion, and thus can be neutral in the academic study of Jesus. Today Jewish groups and individuals can comprise a variety of opinions about the historical Jesus. Scholars notice the Gospels portray Jesus as both within the Jewish tradition of Torah but also debating with the Sages about the Torah, and reach different conclusions. Mainstream Judaism allows for a diversity of scholary opinions about Jesus.
* Jesus knows the Torah but rejects it and is therefore an apostate Jew. More seriously, Jesus is spiritually warring against the God of Israel and intentionally provoking other Jews to abandon God as well. Thus the sentiment of the Toldot Yeshu rings true, and the historical Jesus is one of the "false prophets" that the Hebrew Bible warns against (Deuteronomy 13.2), as Habad and other Orthodox communities affirm. [] Less seriously, Jesus is simply wrong but is irrelevant as far as Judaism is concerned. (Rabbi Jacob Neusner, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus. McGill-Queen's Univ. Press: Rev. ed. 2000).
* Reform Judaism has no opinion about the historical Jesus, and continues a careful rationality in the tradition of the Rambam. If Jesus remained true to the Torah then he is a "good Jew", and if he did not remain true to the Torah then he is an apostate. Individuals can draw their own conclusions. Some Reform Jews indulge the notion Jesus is an ancient example of a progressive Jew. Here an individual voices his own opinion about Jesus to give one example of what Reform Judaism finds acceptable: "I believe Jesus was a Pharis[aic] Rabbi who preached reform in our beloved religion, Judaism. Judaism still awaits a Messiah or at least a Messianic Age of Universal peace. "Messiah" does not carry the same connotation in Judaism as it does in Christianity. We believe in a mortal king who will deliver us from exile and persecution. A close reading of the New Testament reveals that Jesus' followers had the same expectation. Only later was he made into the demigod of today."  A wide variety of opinions are known, from Jesus was an apostate, to he was zaddik, to perhaps he didn't exist at all.
* In the academic community, some Jewish scholars of Judaica (who include Orthodox and Reform communities and who research Jesus carefully) conclude Jesus is likely a good Jew and perhaps even a "righteous person" or zaddik. (Vermes, Jesus the Jew 1981, p. 225.) Jesus himself does not know the later Christian doctrines about him. In Jesus's life time, there are a wide variety of branches of Judaism, but Jesus himself is Pharisaic and belongs to the Proto-Rabbinic stream of tradition. Rabbinic Judaism is still in its Formative stage, and halakhic opinions that are taken for granted today are still under debate during in Jesus's life time. The debates between Jesus and other the Pharisaic sages of the Torah reflect differences in local customs. Moreover, similar harsh criticisms that Jesus recites about the Pharisees can also be found in the Talmud and do not necessarily reflect hostility to the Torah (Matthew 23.13, bTalmud Sotah 22b). Jesus also shares the opinion of many Jewish mystics that the "mindset" (כבנה) while doing a mizvah determines its halakhic validity. (For example, Matthew 23.25)  After careful consideration, some Torah-observant scholars conclude Jesus is not only an observant Jew but even a zaddik with a high level of spiritual awareness. (David Flusser, Jesus 1998, p. 15.)
* The possibility Jesus is a zaddik has different implications for different branches of Judaism. For Reform Judaism the possibility is neutral. It is admirable if Jesus is a zaddik, however it has no formal consequence on Reform Judaism itself. However, for certain Orthodox communities who celebrate the zaddikim with much honor , it can pose a dilemma. The opinion Jesus is a "false prophet" versus the opinion he is a "zaddik" can have consequence with regard to the community's formal attitudes toward Jesus. Martin Buber who is a Hassidic academic predicts, "I am more certain than ever that a great place belongs to [Jesus] in Israel's history of faith" (Two Types of Faith 1961, p. 13).
All of these modern Jewish opinions about Jesus depend on the historicity of Jesus and therefore are uncertain and tentative. For Judaism what matters is the belief in Judaism.
===comments===
Your kidding me, there's enough content here to make an entirely new article, it looks like it's almost as long as the rest of the article's sections combined! And now it looks like the same old song again, except this time you've directly cited the OT and saying "Christianity is impossible", which is exactly what I was worried that it would say in the first place, yet which most people assured me was not true, so it was clarified with citations from the interpretation of Rabbi's and whatnot. Does anyone else have anything to say about this before I go all crazy over this in more specifics? Homestarmy 18:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be "an entirely new article", and relocated to Jewish views of Jesus. However, for now it's important to settle what needs to be in the summary. --Haldrik 18:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: "Christianity is impossible." Christianity is impossible for Judaism, however it is not impossible for Nonjews. For the most part, Judaism feels Nonjews are not culpable if they have a less strict definition of monotheism (compare, Mishneh Torah 11.11). However, Jews are culpable if they have a less strict definition of monotheism. --Haldrik 18:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And just a comment on the Christianity thing...this is irrelevant to the "Judaism's view of Jesus" section.  Keep to the topic.  --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 19:14, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It certainly needs to be summarized.  It also tends rather heavily toward Judaic mysticism, rather than straightforward Judaism.  (I was surpised that there was nothing on the Kabbalah.)  In any case, summarizing this will be a bear that I personally would rather not wrestle with. Jim62sch 20:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's tempting to call Jesus a "Kabbalist", but to do so is anachronistic. He seems a "mystic" though. IIRC, the Zohar says nothing about the historical Jesus. --Haldrik 20:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Judaism comprises a diversity of opinions. That's why there's a Talmud which is a record of Rabbinic debates to sort through different opinions. The article isn't about Medieval Judaism's views, it's about Judaism's views, including modern Judaism. These Jewish scholars don't just "happen" to be Jewish, they are speaking from the Judaic perspective about implications for modern halakhah and so on. They don't need to be mentioned by name in the future summary, but that a diversity of viewpoints can and do exist, does need to be mentioned. Of course, the Toldot Yeshu is of entertainment value only, but it's a notable Jewish view and even has some currency in certain communities. Actually, I'm having trouble finding any traditional reference that specifically identifies Jesus as a נביא שקר except for the Toldot, and I'm beginning to suspect this indeed is the source. Finally, this is about Judaism's opinions about Jesus, in all its diversity. --Haldrik 19:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While all that may be true, one thinks that for the purposes of the Jesus article, adhering to a more "mainstream" form of Judaism might be better.  Jim62sch 20:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's the point. "Mainstream Judaism" allows for a diversity of scholary opinions about Jesus. (Especially Reform!) --Haldrik 20:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think I really want to spend the time to go into an increadible amount of detail on this unless it gets summarized, (Because there's some stuff in there that, you know, might get removed, and I don't want to verbally explode so to speak at this only to find much of it gets removed) but if there's such a diversity of opinion, why must the section say that Christianity is, in effect, incompatible with the OT? Because with that OT citation and the "Obviously's" like I think someone else mentioned, that kind of rules out "diversity" in people's viewpoints. Homestarmy 23:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New text for ''Judaism's views'' 

message: Your kidding me, there's enough content here to make an entirely new article, it looks like it's almost as long as the rest of the article's sections combined! And now it looks like the same old song again, except this time you've directly cited the OT and saying "Christianity is impossible", which is exactly what I was worried that it would say in the first place, yet which most people assured me was not true, so it was clarified with citations from the interpretation of Rabbi's and whatnot. Does anyone else have anything to say about this before I go all crazy over this in more specifics? Homestarmy 18:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be "an entirely new article", and relocated to Jewish views of Jesus. However, for now it's important to settle what needs to be in the summary. --Haldrik 18:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: "Christianity is impossible." Christianity is impossible for Judaism, however it is not impossible for Nonjews. For the most part, Judaism feels Nonjews are not culpable if they have a less strict definition of monotheism (compare, Mishneh Torah 11.11). However, Jews are culpable if they have a less strict definition of monotheism. --Haldrik 18:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And just a comment on the Christianity thing...this is irrelevant to the "Judaism's view of Jesus" section.  Keep to the topic.  --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 19:14, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It certainly needs to be summarized.  It also tends rather heavily toward Judaic mysticism, rather than straightforward Judaism.  (I was surpised that there was nothing on the Kabbalah.)  In any case, summarizing this will be a bear that I personally would rather not wrestle with. Jim62sch 20:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's tempting to call Jesus a "Kabbalist", but to do so is anachronistic. He seems a "mystic" though. IIRC, the Zohar says nothing about the historical Jesus. --Haldrik 20:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Judaism comprises a diversity of opinions. That's why there's a Talmud which is a record of Rabbinic debates to sort through different opinions. The article isn't about Medieval Judaism's views, it's about Judaism's views, including modern Judaism. These Jewish scholars don't just "happen" to be Jewish, they are speaking from the Judaic perspective about implications for modern halakhah and so on. They don't need to be mentioned by name in the future summary, but that a diversity of viewpoints can and do exist, does need to be mentioned. Of course, the Toldot Yeshu is of entertainment value only, but it's a notable Jewish view and even has some currency in certain communities. Actually, I'm having trouble finding any traditional reference that specifically identifies Jesus as a נביא שקר except for the Toldot, and I'm beginning to suspect this indeed is the source. Finally, this is about Judaism's opinions about Jesus, in all its diversity. --Haldrik 19:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While all that may be true, one thinks that for the purposes of the Jesus article, adhering to a more "mainstream" form of Judaism might be better.  Jim62sch 20:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's the point. "Mainstream Judaism" allows for a diversity of scholary opinions about Jesus. (Especially Reform!) --Haldrik 20:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think I really want to spend the time to go into an increadible amount of detail on this unless it gets summarized, (Because there's some stuff in there that, you know, might get removed, and I don't want to verbally explode so to speak at this only to find much of it gets removed) but if there's such a diversity of opinion, why must the section say that Christianity is, in effect, incompatible with the OT? Because with that OT citation and the "Obviously's" like I think someone else mentioned, that kind of rules out "diversity" in people's viewpoints. Homestarmy 23:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: comments