Talk:Hatikvah

message: The Hatikva page seems to be open for anyone to edit. I'm thinking this should not be the case. I just removed a hateful phrase.
 18:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Open to Edit

message: The Hatikvah was the de facto anthem of the Zionist Movement and after 1948, of the State of Israel.  In 2004, the Knesset made the song the official Israeli anthem.
 I thought that the composer was Jewish-Romanian and the song is inspired from a Romanian folk song not Moldovan since Moldova is now part of Romania.
   
I'd like to know what was the fate of Kurt Weill's orchestation: is it the one one currently in use or not?
The song is actually modal, not in a minor key, though for the most part it's minorDrsmoo 16:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hatikva is Israel's nation anthem! 

message: I'm pretty interested in this subject, but could you guys please give us a link to the audio files of the songs that resemble hatikva, because they are very scarce on the web.And can someone tell me if the second part of the anthem (od lo avda tikvatenu} is present in ma vlast? I need some excuse to play this song in public places since I live in an arab country, because someone caught me once and identified the song, I want some kind of excuse to get out of trouble, LOL!
I added that 2Pac sampled hatikva and pointed to a youtube video of said song. I hope this is enough to keep it from getting deleted! 71.236.199.38 10:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The other songs you are talking about?

message: "Tzi(y)on" appears twice in the transcription, and I think it should be spelled tziyon both times.
Not sure about capitalisation - Hebrew doesn't have them after all. Also spelling YERUSHALAYIM instead of
Y'rushalayim seems to be closer to modern Israeli pronunciation.
Kol 'od balevav P'nimah -
Nefesh Yehudi homiyah
Ulfa'atey mizrakh kadimah
'Ayin le'tzion tzofiyah -- =>>> le'tziyon
'Od lo avdah tikvatenu   
(*)Hatikvah bat shnot alpayim:
Lihyot 'am khofshi be'artzenu -
Eretz Tziyon y'rushalayim.(*)
Wathiik 10:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcription 

message: The modern version and the corresponding portions of the original, nine-stanza version are shown with significantly different transliterations and translations, even where the Hebrew is the same. For example (and you may ignore the fact that one version of the Hebrew is written with vowels, the other without):
Version 	Hebrew            	Transliteration       	Translation
Modern  	עוד לא אבדה תקותנו	Od lo avdah tikvateinu	Our hope is not yet lost
Original	עוֹד לֹא אָבְדָה תִקְוָתֵנוּ	Od lo avedah tikvatenu	Our hope will not be lost
These differences will give readers (those who do not or cannot compare the Hebrew) the impression that changes were intentionally made to the song, where it's not clear any changes were made. 
Are these differences based on some official, common, or standardized translations and transliterations, or are they merely artifacts from being copied from different sources? Can anyone clarify this in the article by adding an explanation, replacing one or both with more closely corresponding versions, and/or including references to the sources of these translations and transliterations? 
GCL 20:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Differences between Transliterations and Translations 

message: Why does the fact that "Rav Kook didn't care for Hatikvah" constitute a "controversy"? Zargulon 09:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea, but you are welcome to remove it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy section 

message: Since when does "tehor" mean "fast-paced"?? Shouldn't that part of the english translation be changed to "pure"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.135.162 (talk) 04:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation 

message: In the transliteration, the left & right quote marks come out fine, but in the footnote describing the use of the left & right quote marks, they're both just a straight hash mark.  I don't know how to fix it.
Gilmer (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor formatting issue:  left & right quotes 

message: :In the Jewish heart
:A Jewish spirit still sings,    
:Kol ode balevav P'nimah - 
:Nefesh Yehudi homiyah
:只要心中光不灭
:心声仍呼唤以色列
--
:And the eyes look east
:Toward Zion    
:Ulfa'atey mizrach kadimah
:Ayin l'tzion tzofiyah.
:遥望东方千山外
:故国变迁锡安在
--
:Our hope is not lost,
:Our hope of two thousand years,
:Ode lo avdah tikvatenu
:Hatikvah bat shnot alpayim:
:仍旧怀着盼-望
:绵绵不息两千年
--
:To be a free nation in our land,
:L'hiyot am chofshi b'artzenu
:In the land of Zion and Jerusalem     
:Eretz Tzion v'Yerushalayim
:一心盼着得自由
:回到锡安，耶路撒冷  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BnaiBrithChai (talk • contribs) 07:17, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Chinese Translation

message: is this a "official" translation of Tikvatenu?  Some of the translations seem patently wrong...  Yakatz (talk) 14:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  English translation of Tikvatenu 

message: Tzere Maleh in Hebrew is read as Tzere Haser, there are horrile mistakes in the text:
פועם is written as PoEIm . it is PO'EM only! no one says POEIM!
TIKVATENU, ENENU and not Tikvateinu, Eineinu, whoever wrote that must have
a heavy hassidic accent. but I cannot understand how come words with no tzere maleh
such as פועם become POEIM. plz fix this.
~~  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solico (talk • contribs) 12:51, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: HUGE Mistake with Hebrew transliteration

message: I've taken the image and audio recording that were in the "Media" section and integrated them into the text of the article.  Specifically, I added the photo to the anthem infobox in order to be consistent with similar national anthem articles such as The Star-Spangled Banner and God Save the Queen.  But if anyone has a different opinion about how we should organize this, feel free to discuss it here. Gantiganti (talk) 06:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Media Section

message: Why is there an Arabic translation? Is it not the English Wikipedia?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.186.19 (talk) 23:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Arabic and Hebrew are the two official languages of the State of Israel... AnonMoos (talk) 12:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic Translation

message: Any Hebrew speaking child knows that the proper translation of "נפש יהודי" is "A soul of a Jew", and not "A Jewish soul" (= "נפש יהודית")... I tried to fix it but someone who obviously doesn't know Hebrew changed it back... Another bad translation I tried to fix is "free people" for "עם חופשי". The word "עם" here means "nation" - as in "free nation". The word "people" in Hebrew is "אנשים" not "עם" (although in English "people" could also mean "folk")...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.74.168.235 (talk) 23:08, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not "A Jewish soul" - but "A soul of a Jew"... 

message: "A former member of the Sonderkommando reports that the song was spontaneously sung by Czech Jews in the entryway to the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chamber in 1944. While singing they were beaten by Waffen-SS guards.[5]"
A former member of the Sonderkommando with no name mentioned is already doubtfully.
When you have an Auschwitz-tour around the camp, the guide called Shalmi will tell you other-wise: HOloCaust STUDY tour
"Again, Shalmi reminded us that the last thing the Czech Jews did before entering the gas chamber, was to sing the Czech national anthem." and not the HatikVAH !
Can you see the CONtradicTIon in THEre?
The INmates OFcourse sang Songs as they had BESides a SWIMmingPOol, foOTbal'field and A Sauna & Even A brothel also A Theater!
The last SENtence is certainly Alie BEcause of the SS had CERTAIN rules to FOLlow in their daily procedure and so-me of them wer' Even persecuted for such crimes.
Iwould Like It TO SUGgest to just deLEte this part, as just quoting from a boOK is'no proOf at all That it al'so reALly hapPENed.
--175.137.156.211 (talk) 08:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy about Holocaust-story 

message: Added the following text to the section from an article Liberalism and Right to Culture 
just meant to expand on the topic-
Liberalism and the Right to Culture, written by Avishai Margalit and Moshe Halbertal, provides a social scientific perspective on the cultural dynamics in Israel, a country that is a vital home to many diverse religious groups. More specifically, Margalit and Halbertal cover the various responses towards the Hatikvah, which they establish the as the original anthem of a Zionist movement, one that holds a two thousand year long hope of returning to the homeland (“Zion and Jerusalem”) after a long period of exile.
To introduce the controversy of Israel’s national anthem, the authors provide two instances where the Hatikvah is rejected for the enstrangement that it creates between the minority cultural groups of Israel and it’s religious politics. Those that object find trouble in the mere fact that the National Anthem is exclusively Jewish while 18 percent of the state's citizens do not practice Judaism and lack any resonation to the anthem’s content and implications. 
As Margalit and Halbertal continue to discuss, the Hatikvah symbolizes for many Arab-Israelis the struggle of loyalty that comes with having to dedicate oneself to either their historical or religious identity.  
To conclude from their perspective, the national anthem has become more of a cliché rather than a powerful provocation and therefore doesn’t (always) have to be associated with it’s negative connotations. With that said, because of the context and the ongoing political situation in the country that the anthem is representing, the disagreement over the history and roots of the country cause the Hatikvah to remain as a topic of controversy.
Much of the above is nonsense and controversy for controversy's sake. It's nothing to do with 'religious' politics. The vast majority of Israel's secular Jews are still Zionist Jews.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.123.11 (talk) 19:06, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objections by non-Jewish Israelis section  

message: Since most Jews today are now Israeli citizens, the formulation "some Jews' hope of moving to the Land of Israel and declaring it a sovereign nation" is inaccurate. It's now most Jews. Or better yet, "some Jews" should be changed to "the Zionist hope for Jews to move to the Land of Israel..." 
Comments? Zozoulia (talk) 06:05, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What stat are you using to say most are Israeli citizens? There are about as many Jews living in the US as there are in Israel. According to Jewish population by country that works out to 45% of the Jews in the world live in Israel. What source are you using the enough of the other 55% of the Jews in the world hold citizenship to be able to claim most? What are you using as most, over 50%, 66%, 75%? - GalatzTalk 13:26, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introductory paragraph 

message: I've introduced what is apparently the best study on the topic (Seroussi 2015), but lack the patience to adapt all the details in the article to what the study is setting right. It would be great if somebody would pick it up from here.
I see it like this: in 1887 Samuel "Shmuel" Cohen was fresh off the boat from Romania and coming from either somewhere in Maramureş where he was for a while (part of Hungary in 1887, but with a substantial Romanian population), as he recounted himself some 50 years later in his memoirs, or -according to some mysterious, unknown source quoted by every online page- his hometown (or village?) near Ungheni (or Ungheni itself) in Bessarabia (the Russian-occupied part of Moldavia). That very year he got the text of Tikvateinu from his brother who was still back home, and either in 1887 or the next year he combined what he had sung as a Romanian folk melody in a choir back in the Maramureş, to the words of Imber.
Where the melody Cohen had learned in the Maramureş choir initially came from, this must be sorted out from Seroussi's article.
Also, very important: the official anthem sounds terribly similar to Smetana's Vltava (Moldau) from 1875. Since when? Why? Was the light-hearted popular tune learned by Cohen adapted to sound more "heavy & evocative", and eventually even more "symphonic"? Or had the Romanian choirmaster done the job already? The recent interpretations of the Romanian folk song sound terribly remote in key, rhythm, spirit... you name it from Hatikva, and I very much presume that it wasn't Cohen, age 17-18, who adapted it. It was also certainly re-adapted at later moments, once the ad-hoc early Zionist anthem became more "official", until it was finally declared the national anthem many decades later. The evolution from whistling a folk tune to, honestly, mimicking Smetana's symphonic poem, is a long -and very interesting- way.
About the later phases of "official" adaptation from the 1940s: "The standard orchestration is the one apparently by the Italian conductor Bernardino Molinari (1880-1952), who conducted the Palestine (and later on Israel) Philharmonic Orchestra on several occasions between 1945 and 1948. Another orchestration by the German-Israeli composer Paul Ben-Haim (1897-1984) is also current."
Thanks, Arminden (talk) 00:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music 

message: The current article says: The melody for "Hatikvah" derives from "La Mantovana", a 16th-century Italian song, composed by Giuseppe Cenci (Giuseppino del Biado) ca. 1600 with the text "Fuggi, fuggi, fuggi da questo cielo".
The current La Mantovana article, however, says it is a popular sixteenth-century song attributed to the Italian tenor Giuseppe Cenci, also known as Giuseppino del Biado, (d. 1616). I can't access the well-reputed source given, but perhaps someone else can or has other authoritative sources that can settle the matter?
In any case: an obscure origin is quite normal for tunes from around 1600 and earlier and composers borrowed quite freely. Indeed, with this particular tune they did so even later, so perhaps Giuseppe was just the earliest known in the row? 151.177.56.148 (talk) 20:55, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Composed by Cenci or just attributed to him? 

message: Can someone add this video this page?
 TheRoyalTrust (talk) 23:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video 

message: The mention of Prague is not linked to the Wiki article about Prague, if I’m not mistaken. I am talking about the part with the 8th Congress in 1933.
I would suggest adding “along with the Czechoslovak anthem and the Internationale” to the part with Hatikva. It underlines the entire Auschwitz situation, since this particular event is not well known. I only have sources in Czech unfortunately, but they’re from Paměť národa, and that is quite a prestigious source :) https://www.pametnaroda.cz/cs/magazin/stalo-se/za-jedinou-noc-zavrazdili-naciste-v-osvetimi-3792-ceskych-moravskych-zidu
Just search “Hatikv” and you’ll find the part with Hatikva etc. Internuf (talk) 07:01, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: for now; please provide a second reliable source, preferably in English, to support second part of the recommended changes. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  “Prague” doesn’t have Wiki link + adding the Czechoslovak anthem and Internationale to the Auschwitz Hatikvah singing ? 

message: Hello,
The French page for Hatikvah mentions in the "Histoire" section (my translation) "Peter Gradenwitz emitted the hypothesis that Samuel Cohen had found this melody in a collection of liturgical songs published by cantor Nissan Beltzer of Kichinev, which doesn't exclude the Moldavian source."
("Peter Gradenwitz émit l’hypothèse que Samuel Cohen avait trouvé cette mélodie dans un recueil de chansons liturgiques publiées par le chantre Nissan Beltzer de Kichinev, ce qui n’exclut pas la source moldave.")
I don't presently have JSTOR access but based on a quick Google search this may be a possible source for the above (no source included in the French article):
BLOOM, C. (1990). Hatikvah - Imber, his poem and a national anthem. Jewish Historical Studies, 32, 317–336. http://www.jstor.org/stable/29779890
If anyone with access would like to add this to article, I think it's worth mentioning!!
Many thanks/merci beaucoup Emldb34 (talk) 15:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the A>Baltsan paper and it is all nationalist propaganda, totally useless.--Aristophile (talk) 21:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative melody source - Peter Gradenwitz theory 

message: First, my conflicts are I am Jewish, involved in the Jewish community and a supporter of Israel.  However, I believe my edits are to remove controversy over this page not to express one side.  
I suggest removing the poetic translation under the English Translations section.  In the hotly debated topic of Israel, less is more.  Sticking to factual material instead of interpretative poetry is called for.  While the poetry is from a legitimate source and is beautiful it contains poetic mis-translations that have become anti-Semitic tropes.  In particular it removes the reference to 2000 years of connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel.  Second it removes the reference to the soul of the Jewish people and only references the heart.  The heart dies.  The soul is infinite.  Again these two references (2000 and soul) are direct translations from the Hebrew.  A poetic translation without those references favors the argument that the Jews are newcomers to the land and stole it from the Arabs living there in the early 20th century.  Instead of getting into that question, the poetry should just be removed.
Second, in the talk section of the editor, there is a comment from "INCOMPLETE LYRICS" which is blatant anti-Semitic hate speech.  They write that there are other versus calling for "the annihilation of the people of Egypt".  Any site showing the words of Hatikva will show that you have accurately written the entirety of the anthem on your page.  I ask that the talk message be removed as false hate speech and the user be blocked from posting in the future.  Thanks WikiBrad1 (talk) 13:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. M.Bitton (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 November 2023 

message: This page seems to imply that the Israeli government / later Zionists amended the text from Imber's original, but the modern version corresponds exactly to the text published by Imber in 1904 here (p. 56): https://www.nli.org.il/he/books/NNL_ALEPH990011799860205171/NLI which is updated slightly from the first edition published in 1886. Is there any reason to think anyone else had a hand in it? GordonGlottal (talk) 19:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of the Hebrew text. 

message: in the original lyrics section, it mentions many locations and things related to Israel, such as the West Wall, the Jordan River, King David, and more. should there be links to what the terms are referring to?
btw, here is the link for the section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatikvah#Original_lyrics AaronNinetyTwo (talk) 17:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  shouldn't we add links to what the lyrics are referring? 

message: Any substance to the research of pianist Astrith Baltsan, published in her book "hatikva - past present and future", that the melody originally comes from a 12th century Sephardic rendition of the Blessing of the Dew (birchat hatal)? it has been quite widely discussed. no primary sources over here.
https://www.c4israel.org/news/a-story-of-an-anthem/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=UzGzWp4136VYFPqU&v=2fDfB95AqQ4&feature=youtu.be MoshiachNow (talk) 06:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a musicologist and don't have the book but sounds entirely fanciful. There's essentially no notated Jewish music from the period, so I don't understand what evidence could exist that this tune predated the known European inspirations in Jewish use. GordonGlottal (talk) 13:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original source in Sephardic liturgy