Talk:Dir En Grey/Archive 1

message: I've changed the translation of the word "Dir en Grey" in this file. I've never agreed with the extremely unbased "Silver Coin" claims, and it's almost obvious that Dir en Grey means "to you in grey" since Lareine's demo is also called ~Haiiro no anata o~, which means just that. I hope I didn't break any HORRIBLE un-written rule :P ~Ikis, 20:30 06.28.2005 (Israel time. YOU calculate >>;)
:In response to the name issue, I went and did a little googling. What I found was this, and I reworked the initial paragraph with it in mind. I acknowledged both sides to the translation argument, so I think it works out pretty well.
:--Illness Illusion 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation of band name

message: Not sure who rewrote things so drastically since I last edited the page, but I really think it's got a quite a bit wrong with it. There seems to be some bias in the first paragraph ("profound lyrics"), and the brief history seems to have deleted the actual background of the band in favor of a more "recent events" type thing. I'm going to revert back a bit, I apologize if anyone made any significant changes.
Speaking of which, is it just me, or does the entirety of the "name paragraph" sound awkward now?
--Illness Illusion 03:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert

message: [See the [ version comparison].] I've fixed a number of grammatical and formatting mistakes throughout the text, and standardised the date formats to the more human-readable English standard (from dd.mm.yyyy, yyyy.mm.dd, and dd Month yyyy to Month dd, yyyy). I converted some inline external links to wikilinks and added a few new wikilinks. The links list was pruned to remove apparently irrelevent links; see "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links" (official policy). Several links seem to simply be portals or otherwise unrelated websites. I didn't touch the fan links, but will return to prune that as well -- only notable groups should be included, if at all. Likewise, I'll later remove the lyrics section, since the information should be placed on Wikipedia on the appropriate album or song page. I further rewrote the Band Members section into prose form, which should be much more readable, and moved it above the Brief History section. I still see quite a few improvements that could be made, but I'll wait a bit for those. On a related note, could anyone clarify the following line from the article? 
Dir en grey's international fans who speak a Latin-based language often use the abbreviations Deg and Diru when both speaking and typing for sake of brevity.
// Pathoschild 04:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Semi-extensive copyediting

message: I’ve tried to rework the entire article, it looked like an ugly, cluttered mess, information about each members belongs in their own article, as does in-depth looks and fan receptions of each release. - Deathrocker 20:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rework

message: I'm pretty shocked how a previously rather decent article has been dumbed down and superficialised. Several bits of useful information are gone (the whole style/sellout controversy for example) instead there is an air now of bias and - excuse my frankness - bad English. And really, is a picture that portraits the group in it's long-gone Visual Kei looks appropriate for the Wikipedia?
Dir en grey are touring the US right now and will do more concerts in Europe later this year. That means that quite a few people might want to look them up here and they will want a well written and down to earth band history and probably one or two paragraphs about the stylistic development over the years.
I'll try see to that myself depending on how much time I'll be able to spare. - Cyrus XIII, March 18th, 2006
I've been watching this page for a bit, and I must agree with Cyrus.  Things have been dumbed down, and I wish someone with the proper knowledge could expand this page from it's current narrowness about touring into a well bodied article.  There are other aspects about this group that could be documented. - TheS0S 19:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Questionable development

message: I'm sorry if this made sense to every one but why is the discography on a seperate page? im pretty sure that isnt standard wikipedia practice. Maybe the pages should be merged ? user:coda_littleking
It is certainly some sort of standard for bands with vast discographies (think KISS), but this is not really the case yet with the group at hand here. I'd also suggest to do something about this extensive tour title list. It seems so profoundly irrelevant. - Cyrus XIII, April 21th, 2006
Quite alot of bands have it on Wikipedia, including, David Bowie, Marilyn Manson.. and others, Dir en Grey have released quite alot of singles, which is included on the discography page. - Deathrocker 10:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Seperate Discography?

message: this article really reads like a fan page... not an informative article.  i'm going to go through and take out some of the POV stuff and clean up some spelling, grammar, etc.  let me know if you disagree with anything i alter. Tmkain 01:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've checked all of the band members' articles too and they're even worse -- especially the article on Die ("don't let his appearance fool you!", "I wish them the best of luck", etc.).  I wouldn't even know where to begin to clean up this POV/weasleword mess, especially since it's not particularly a band I know much about.  --I am not good at running 04:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: I agree with TheSOS and notjake13. The article now has a respective marking which will hopefully draw enough attention to the issue. A complete rewrite is needed, to get rid of a few cases of personal bias and utter fanboyism. Plus there are no citations for most of what is in it (which makes some aspects, especially the band's early history rather disputable). - Cyrus XIII, May 23rd, 2006
notjake13 was refering to the article been blanked by an anon  nobody bothered to revert the vandalism. - Deathrocker 07:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article marked for its lack of NPOV and citations 

message: I started out cleaning things up a bit (redundant/hardly relevant information, bias/unnecessary grandeur, bad English) and ended up rephrasing pretty much the entire article. I guess it -is- a lot more readable and up to Wikipedia standards now though it could still use more meat between all the releases and touring. But please, it should still be more noteworthy stuff than lengthy tour names and the availability of t-shirts.
An extra section about the ongoing controversy among fans regarding Dir en grey's stylistic and visual changes would be nice, the discography page could use pictures and there really has to be a way to make the tour list look less ugly. That's my todo list for the not so distant future - or anyone who reads this and likes the idea. :) - Cyrus XIII, May 26th, 2006
Congratulations to whomever rewrote this article! The aricle is much cleaner, more focused, and less biased. I am now confident in directing people to this page fo further informatoin on Dir en grey. - notjake13 13:06, 1 June 2006 (JST)
Thx notjake13, good to get some positive feedback. I outlined a few more things that would improve this and its related articles here and while we're at it, there are individual articles for all of Dir en grey's singles (!) which should just be deleted/merged with the discography. - Cyrus XIII, June 1st, 2006
Good job Cyrus, the article looks a lot better now. About the singles, I think they need more information, eg: "This single caused fans to blah blah" or "this has been the most succesful single to date... blah blah" etc.
Fazz010s 04:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Accidential rework

message: To everyone (including IP contributors), Dir en grey has been changing into different genres within their career; so finding their specific genre is difficult. But it's known they are part of Japanese rock. So please don't add genres (including former ones) like what happened to the recent edits by 207.106.123.38. It only causes some confusion.
===Update===
There was another recent edit in which someone added a genre not familer to Dir en grey. Please take that into consideration... If you still didn't catch that, don't add genres unknown to Dir en grey.
AKnot 00:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see what you mean, but death metal also shares a few characteristics with metalcore, which is already covered by the article. - Cyrus XIII 18:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think they are. They don't sound like Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, Suffocation, Death or whatever.  Dir en grey seem to fall in more of the nu-metal/alt metal with elements from the metalcore genres. They can be deathcore (death metal and metalcore crossover), but they seem to lack some of the qualities like the technical-like musicianship and maybe the vocal approach; if they are, Kyo would be killing his voice with pig squeals. They had a minor thrash metal element in Macabre's Rasetsukoku if you wanted to know. NaotoATG 04:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About genre adding... 

message: There was another recent edit in which someone added a genre not familer to Dir en grey. Please take that into consideration... If you still didn't catch that, don't add genres unknown to Dir en grey.
AKnot 00:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Update

message: Does Dir en Grey qualify as Death Metal. I'm not exactly sure what Death Metal is (even after a wiki description) so only someone who listens to it is qualifies to say "sure is" or "not quite." Though from what I've been seeing of their new videos on YouTube my guess is going towards "sure is." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.236.220 (talk) 
:I can see what you mean, but death metal also shares a few characteristics with metalcore, which is already covered by the article. - Cyrus XIII 18:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think they are. They don't sound like Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, Suffocation, Death or whatever.  Dir en grey seem to fall in more of the nu-metal/alt metal with elements from the metalcore genres. They can be deathcore (death metal and metalcore crossover), but they seem to lack some of the qualities like the technical-like musicianship and maybe the vocal approach; if they are, Kyo would be killing his voice with pig squeals. They had a minor thrash metal element in Macabre's Rasetsukoku if you wanted to know. NaotoATG 04:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Death Metal

message: When the Dir en grey wiki came about til now, people have been adding fan links (not including the community and lyric site(s)). Does anybody think this wiki should have fan links at all?
AKnot 00:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Links to online communities and lyric pages are not that uncommon on Wikipedia and especially the latter fulfills a purpose here, considering this band relies primarily on Japanese (= non-English) lyrics. But that's really as far as linking to unofficial websites should go, lest every musicians article becomes a link aggregator for fansites. Btw, I removed the link to the German site as it has not been updated since May. - Cyrus XIII 16:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fan links? 

message: After recently looking at Dir en grey's new look on their official web site, does anybody think the wiki should have that current look as their group pic? Thank you... AKnot 00:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we might as well wait until the next album is out. A new subsection for the history might make sense by then as well. - Cyrus XIII 08:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Group Picture Update? 

message: I have removed all references to the supposed actual names of the band members for now. There should be no attempts to put them back in unless somebody can come up with decent sources. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a rumor mill and that we are dealing with living people here, who certainly would not like to see misinformation about their person here. - Cyrus XIII 08:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Real" names

message: I uploaded their tour background logo.
Would it be fine if the logo was in the wiki (i.e. on top of group pic)?
AKnot 01:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be a neat thing to have, if Dir en grey had something used fairly coherently over the years (like Metallica or X Japan) which would qualify as logo in the sense of corporate identity. But so far, there is a different typesetting for pretty much every release and until that changes, there really isn't much sense in picking one varriation in order to have something at the top of that infobox. Like the idea though. - Cyrus XIII 12:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logo? 

message: The banner that noted that this section should be cleaned up has been removed I guess until I further clarify what the definition of "messy" is.  Particularly what needs fixing is the syntax and the grammar of the article.  For example, I will take a typical sentence style that is scattered all around the article.
"This caught the attention of Yoshiki Hayashi of X Japan fame, who produced and arranged the singles of their subsequent album, Gauze, released      in 1999."
Just minor things like that, I feel it needs to be more formal and not so "stylized".  Dec 11 2006  12:34 xcuref1endx (UTC)
:Apparently you are concerned about the article's style, not the grammar as stated in you original edit summary. Thanks for clearing this up. Well, if these issues are so minor, what exactly keeps you from fixing them? Delegating the task like this might very well result in the banner being removed after a while, because no one agreed with your initial complaint. I certainly do not. While an article can always be more formal, this one is still in a much better shape than many of its peers in terms of style and the subsequent NPOV. But this should not keep you from being bold. Oh and one last thing: New discussion topics go to the bottom of the page. - Cyrus XIII 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed some of the grammar. I am not an expert on the band, but I've made some minor changes for clarity. I am new, so sorry if I missed anything up. Thanks, and I hope I helped more than I messed up! Goyston 04:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I have rephrased and simplified several sentences as well and if nobody objects, I will remove the cleanup tag within a day or two. - Cyrus XIII 09:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: So what genre ARE they? I know it's not metal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.175.100.35 (talk) 20:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of "Messy" CLEAN UP BANNER

message: What about genre adding in albums and singles?
Thoughts?
AKnot 01:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about a section in this article titled "Style and subject matter" which elaborates on the band's stylistic development and the content of the lyrics? This would be a lot more informative than adding individual genres to infoboxes of every release which is bound to spark lengthy discussions in several cases ("It's hard rock." - "No, I think it's metal." - "You know, it has a certain pop appeal..."). I've been meaning to start such a section for quite some time, but I never seem to get around to it. - Cyrus XIII 11:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: That's agreeable. After typing the question, I was thinking of that spark discussion as well. That would be a great idea! Describing them originally as a regular J-Rock band and then evolve to more of a metalcore like band. AKnot 01:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't forget that J-rock and visual kei are not music genres per se, as they really do not describe the style of music at all (except origin and outfits of the artists and maybe the language used). I'd rather use genre handles very sparsely and if any, only more common ones, in order to make the text accessible to people who are not familiar with rock music from Japan. - Cyrus XIII 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All right. I might begin the section soon. AKnot 05:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. I would also need help in it to make it look perfect. I got to listen to Agitated Scream of Maggots, do you think it has some swedecore influences? AKnot 02:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Besides main genre adding... 

message: why isnt it on the videography?Quatreryukami 19:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The videography covers video-related releases on VHS and DVD, such as concerts and music video collections. The "Saku" video and it's relation to the one for "Kodou" is actually mentioned in the notes for Average Fury and Average Psycho. - Cyrus XIII 03:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saku video 

message: Since in Wikipedia, the names of bands are kept with their respective capitalizations, I was wondering if Dir en grey should be moved to DIERENGREY. If you notice on the latest album, the name is written this way consistently on both the cover and within the booklet. I won't move until sufficient responses have been made, but wouldn't this be considered an official name change? --Jake 22:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually Wikipedia does not always follow official capitalization, as it has a few stylistic guidelines regarding trademarks. Also, before making any wide reaching changes, I would suggest to wait and see whether there has indeed been a permanent change in spelling (Dir en grey → Direngrey). Several pages of the official website still use the variant with two spaces. - Cyrus XIII 23:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, well, as far as capitalization issues, I was speaking of how the page is titled Dir en grey rather than Dir en Grey or Dir En Grey as some places require. Thanks for your input. --24.176.1.18 14:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the official site you will see "Dir en grey" everywhere. I don't know about the latest album, but it seems that at least the official site still uses this capitalization.  --analoguedragon 19:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes please change the capitalization to Dir en grey, as their CD's, official site and merchandise have it this way as well and have done so since inception. This should be the first reference the name but the last mentioned would instead be Dir En Grey as most people who are new the band use this style. When you view their albums and you see the image of their album cover, the cover it self is written as Dir en grey. Please change all pages to this formatting. The beginning sentence on the page is misrepresenting the actual titling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.206.39.87 (talk) 15:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change 

message: More recently, some articles have been created to illustrate the band's individual tours. While precedents for such pages exist on Wikipedia, they usually document live efforts by bands who are arguably far more notable than Dir en grey, with internationally successful careers spanning not just barely one but several decades (like :Metallica, :The Rolling Stones and :U2). Apart from information already covered by related articles (like this one or the those dealing with the band's extensive videography) and content copied from the official website's timeline, these articles largely rely on unsourced material. On a lesser note, some also appear to require cleanup with Wikipedia's style guidelines in mind (i.e. WP:ALBUMS).
The links to these articles from this one have been removed for the time being, until aforementioned notability, verifiability and potential copyright issues have been resolved. If someone would like to make improvements, the respective meta article can be found here: :List of Dir en grey concert tours - Cyrus XIII 02:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate articles for concert tours 

message: Err, this sentence doesn't seem to make much sense:
:Had certain songs up to that point already been decidedly more fast-paced, raw and aggressive than their peers, the band's music took a turn with the release of the EP Six Ugly, sporting more metal influences from then on in general.
Ambrosia- 04:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will try to rewrite that passage tomorrow, ok? - Cyrus XIII 03:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Style and Subject Matter

message: I think it is necessary to have a picture from Dir en grey's "Visual Kei" period, as that is part of their history. For the American audience, Visual Kei is an unknown thing, and while there is a small page on it, it is better represented by an image. Does anybody have suggested images or think it to be unnecessary? 
Also, so as to not clog the talk page, I'll add here that I changed the word "appearances" in the festival notation in the final paragraph, as "appearing" somewhere is different than "performing" somewhere. Example being, Ozzy Osborne appears at ever Ozzfest summer festival, but does not perform at every show.--Jake 11:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding Visual Kei, for purposes of history only, yes, but if it will be used as decoration then no. Is there a Public or Fair Use image? Quatreryukami 02:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Good point on the semantics (I was employing the word "appearance" merely for the sake of diversifying the wording). As for the visual kei thing, I believe a Gauze/Macabre era group shot would help to illustrate the band's early career, but I doubt that there is a public image available and I'm not sure whether this is an ample case for further stressing fair use for this article. - Cyrus XIII 08:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, then why don't we go the Rationale route, and get someone to write us a Copyright template for Japanese band related Pictures? Or am I being too WP:BOLD? Quatreryukami 15:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the current climate towards fair use content (note the recent changes to :Dir en grey discography), I guess adding another copyrighted promo shot of the band just isn't the way to go. - Cyrus XIII 01:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, there seems to be a lot of anal users about this. How 'bout Fair Use? Does anyone know where to find one? I know not Wikimedia Commons (:D). Maybe some fan photos from a personal website, whats the rules for that? Quatreryukami 02:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Get the permission of the owner of the fan page or whoever took the shots. Ambrosia- 03:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture from the "Visual Kei" period. 

message: The date of their exact formation isn't available on Wikipedia, however, it is generally accepted among fasn as February 2, 1997. I was browsing through the Yarouze magazine, which features an entire detailed history and profile of the band, and the history section includes February 2nd as a formation date. This source is in Japanese, but is as official as any other publication. Scans can be provided.--Jacob 15:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Scans would be appreciated, thanks. Do you have a publication date on that issue of the magazine? Coupled with a page number, I'd say we got ourselves a decent source then. - Cyrus XIII 18:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is on page 23, and the publishing date is October 2, 1999. Here it is on Yahoo! Books, listed with its October publishing date, and on Amazon.co.jp, still available for purchase. Here is the cover and detail of the table of contents. The information is contained in the "Dir's HISTORY" section.--Jacob 05:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exact formation date 

message: I found this information on the Japanese Wikipedia.  I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, nor if this has been discussed before.
Dir en greyの意は、「Dir」はドイツ語で「銀貨」、「en」はフランス語で「～の」、「grey」は英語で「灰色」を合わせ、“灰色の銀貨”という意味であるとされている。(但し、実際にはドイツ語に「Dir」という単語は存在しない)
"According to Dir en grey, 'Dir' is German for 'silver coin,' 'en' is French for 'of,' and grey is English for 'grey.'  Together, it means 'a silver coin of grey.' (However, there is no such word as 'Dir' in the German language)"
Is this information indeed correct, and is it relevant to the article?  The only problem I see with it is that it's unscourced.  This seems to be a recurring problem on Japanese Wikipedia.
(And yes, I know 灰色の銀貨 would be less literally, "a grey silver coin."  I was just translating it with "en=of" in mind (is that accurate?  I don't know a lick of French))
Chibi Gohan 10:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree about the Japanese Wikipedia and I'd even go as far as saying that this reference issue is a general problem with every version in certain areas (the English one just receives more input). The only actual source we currently have on the name is the interview from that recent Spike TV show, were the band stated that the name was supposed to be a mix of languages that wasn't supposed to mean anything (beside "Dir en grey" of course). I guess that makes any attempts to translate the name in parts or as a whole rather pointless. Also I have no idea how one could translate "dir" with "silver coin". German is my native language and to my best knowledge (and Leo) these words don't have any connection. - Cyrus XIII 10:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Please see the move request at the bottom of the page. 夢追人YumeChaser 22:05, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm going to start off by saying that you are obviously wrong. If you look at their official Japanese or English website (here), you don't see "Dir en grey" at all, you see "DIR EN GREY". And while some albums use the name "Dir en grey", newer ones like The Marrow of a Bone—which I own—also use "DIR EN GREY". Now I'm going to head on to my main point which is that it doesn't matter at all whatsoever if this is an American, British, or Japanese band. It only matters what language their band name is in. If it was Japanese, it would have to be capitalized following MOS:J, but since it's not, and since there's no real language that the band name is in, we use standard capitalization rules. Again, please read MOS:TM. mx3 話 23:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, I know because they are using DIR EN GREY as an additional typesetting since 2007. ALL their stuff from 1997→2007 has officially been Dir en grey, they started using DIR EN GREY as an additional style on DOZING GREEN single in 2007 and has been DIR EN GREY since then. I have been a fan of this band since 2002 and they have NEVER (yes, NEVER) used Dir En Grey. As I said before, Why do you keep accepting bob hund to be bob hund on the English Wikipedia, but not Dir en grey to be typset as Dir en grey?? That make no sense at all for me. Stop bitching about this English Standard-rule, because their name is not English!! I want to hear your other arguments, because that only English Standard-rule is not good enough, give me your other arguments. Killinstinct (talk) 23:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The Band's Name

message: Recently, the MySpace was hacked by an anonymous person and this was proven with a bulletin.
It will (or already) be removed until further notice. NaotoATG 02:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  MySpace removed. 

message: The arrests of Free Will officials has everything to do with Dir en grey, the money was used defrauded using Dir en grey (and other bands) as an excuse, and was used to fund costs for bands signed to the label. Including tours, music videos, producing their records, and so on.  219.90.229.216 06:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Free Will

message: This article needs cleaning up, to meet the Wikipedia guidelines and standards.
The sections; "2007: The Marrow of a Bone" and "Style and subject matter" need attention.
A list of sentences that need removal, or rewording; in order of appearance.
:As of 2007, they have released six full-length records and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.
:While the group's lineup has remained consistent since its inception, numerous stylistic changes have made its music's genre difficult to determine (though it is generally considered to be a form of rock music)
::They first attracted mainstream attention in 1998
::would later become the first of several live concerts to be released on VHS and DVD.
::tours in support for the record would last well into 2004.
::Becoming more involved with the international music scene,
::and Internet file-sharing only.
::As with numerous other Japanese bands
::While there has been speculation among fans, the artists' full names are not a matter of public knowledge.
This is an encyclopedia, and nothing else. —The preceding comment signed as by 122.49.135.245 (talk • contribs) was actually added by Jun kaneko (talk • contribs) -  00:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: , after carefully weighing WP:AGF against your previous track record,     I have to conclude that I'm not even going to consider any of this crap. - Cyrus XIII 02:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unencyclopedic content/original research/news release/misinterpreted citations 

message: I don't think we need a separated section for "International recognition"...it could be merged to the "History" section, I believe.Victao lopes (talk) 21:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's been a high degree of disagreement on including this in the introductory paragraph in the article, and as it is not a specific event, it's hard to place it in the history section. The fact that they are popular overseas isn't really a time-line event. --Jacob Talk 22:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I understand...but, is this section really important? I mean...there are so many J-bands enjoying overseas popularity, but their articles don't have these statements. Will it really generate a discussion if we decide just to briefly mention it in the introductory paragraph?Victao lopes (talk) 23:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the degree of mainstream success, outside of the typical Japanese culture is what is notable. There aren't many Japanese bands that can break free of their cult status. Having this in the introductory paragraph caused issues with some other users in the past, and having it as a small paragraph at the end seems to have pleased most users involved with the article, if you don't feel it necessary, maybe other users will agree with you. We should wait for other editors' input here. --Jacob Talk 06:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.Victao lopes (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  International recognition section 

message: I'm not sure if this would be relevant to what is on Wikipedia under Dir en grey, but what about a section for A-Knot? I do realise that, as a fanclub, it is not the actual band, nor does wikipedia approve of promotion of organizations, but I think a small secion on A-Knot would be nice. Let the people know that there is a fanclub for those who live in Japan, not to mention the support of the fanclub for the band. Just an idea? Vul~Gar~Den (talk) 00:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you could just put the link in the "External links" section. But I strongly recommend you to wait for other editors' opinions.Victao lopes (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

text: It's been discussed before, and it's difficult to find relevancy for it. The only thing that is really important is the fan club-only releases, and those are already mentioned in the discography/videography sections. A lot of information about A Knot is also not sourced, and is only based on original research. A link the in the external links may be useful, but it will only direct to another portion of the Official site, which is already linked. --Jacob Talk 12:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, okay. I was just wondering because I was getting questions about it myself. Thank you for answering my question. Since the Official Site is already linked, I won't worry about it. Thank you again! Vul~Gar~Den (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem, thank you for using the talk page and being generally considerate. This article often overflows with controversy. --Jacob Talk 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fanclub Information?? 

message: Under each of the members own seperate articals it looks like a giant Ad for ESP Guitars. i think someone should at least tone it down. Im to lazy to fix or leave a notice under every article so I'll leave it here. Setsuka13  —Preceding comment was added at 02:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ads 

message: Notable - as an english word, means "Worthy of note or notice; remarkable."  So if Dir en Grey has had remarkable sucess in the United States, that would mean a pretty big success.  I would call the words "notable success" to be weasel words in this case - neither notable or success have clear definitions in the context of the article.  What is really meant is "some success that can be documented" but it comes out sounding like they are huge in the US.  I think it would be more appropriate to say they have a dedicated but small fanbase, or have found a nitch market, and are continuing to grow which would be more accurate.  Denaar (talk) 01:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In my point of view, "notable success" here means "quite a big success considering that they sing in Japanese and that they are used to having succes only in Japan", and not "they are on the Billboard Top 10". Maybe this idea is not so explicit, though...Victor Lopes (talk) 01:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, "notable" in the simple sense of the (American, European) press taking note, similar to the way we are benchmarking notability on Wikipedia. Notable success is also a lot easier to assert and quantify than "minor" or "major" success were in the case of musicians the scale may range from well received club tours to stadium-shaking events. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 16:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We really need to remove that they are "sucessful" - you can't define "sucess."  Notable sucess, in English, implies something that everyone is taking note of - something that is popular. It isn't something that can be documented for or against.  It is an opinion - that is why it does not belong in a wikipedia article.  It destroys the NPOV of the article and makes them seem bigger than they are.  Figure out a different or better wording - but it needs to be changed into something more NPOV. Denaar (talk) 02:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The disagreement here is all in the word "notable". Now, to hopefully be the voice of reason; I see where both of you are placing your arguments. On Denaar's side, the word notable often has a different connotation in casual, American English speaking. It usually implies something is really important, and if one is not involved in underground music often (I'm going out on a limb to assume Denaar listens more to mainstream rock than the most underground stuff like jazzcore and goregrind) then it would be assumed that "notable" means on par with "mainstream" or "popular", just by common use. On Cyrus's side, the word "notable" is used in the literal translation (sorry, it's not Wikipedia jargon, it is just a very straightforward breakdown of the word, and that's how Wikipedia uses it as well), as in the artist is worthy of being noted. Now, in this case, their success is noted in the lead paragraph, hence it cannot be argued that the success is notable. On the issue of success, they have achieved mainstream success by turning profit with records and charting on the United States Billboard charts. That is by all means an indicator of at least the smallest degree of success. I think the article is fine as it stands, however if true synonymic words are put in place to make the argument more satisfying to American English speakers, and encyclopedic, literal editors, I would say it is worth a trial, but should be discussed before implementation occurs. "Major" or "minor" are not on par with "notable", as "major" and "minor" are scaling adjectives, and those should generally be avoided without extremely reliable citation. I hope this can resolve some of the dispute. Thanks! --Jacob Talk 04:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A friend of mine suggested "has begun to see cross over success" as a wording choice.  I think that better states what was originally intended by the sentence - that while they are not mainstream they have been more successful than the media (specifically billboard) would have expected.  Frankly they have had such a die-hard fanbase for so long I'm not sure why any one would be surprised with what they have done.  Notable as a word means "worthy of notice" - but by whom?  Therein lies the issue, something being notable is an opinion.  Wikipedia specifically defines notability as being noted by published sources, but I could call a red button on a shirt rather notable and be correct.  PS - Your assertion of my musical tastes was incorrect, but I admit I do not listen to music specifically for the purpose of sounding pretentious. Denaar (talk) 03:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable

message: I thought I'd bring this up with a source I've found: . Not sure if it can be used but it would be interesting to cover their gothic and death metal influences to their music. I do not wish to be pulled into the discussion so I'll let you people decide if you want to use it and or continue searching for sources on this. FireCrystal (talk) 21:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is typical of MTV, labeling anything less cheery than bubblegum-pop to be "gothic-" or "death-" or "black-" because they simply don't cater to an audience that cares. I'm hard-pressed to find much in Dir en grey's music that qualifies as "gothic", and there really are no other reputable sources which reinforce the idea. I'd say it's just apathy on MTV's end. --Jacob Talk 21:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gothic/death metal influence? 

message: Someone changed the line in the style and subject matter section from "Some tracks of their debut album Gauze also demonstrated a distinct pop appeal..." to "Some tracks of their debut album Gauze also demonstrated a distinct hardcore punk appeal...".
I'm not sure if I should change that back to 'pop'. XShurikenx (talk) 20:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the original sentence and changed it back Denaar (talk) 17:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gauze = hardcore punk? 

message: We'll ignore the fact that Withering to Death was listed by a Japanese magazine as one of the top 12 Visual Kei albums of all time  because Dir en Grey's is still concept oriented, and Visual bands are focused on concept, but I agree they have toned down their attire over time.  I removed the term "flamboyant" to a more neutral term because flamboyant is slang for "gay" in the US.  Please look at Urban Dictionary or our own Wikipedia: Flamboyant_(disambiguation): Flamboyant is a potentially pejorative adjective for LGBT people, or those perceived to be, whose behavior is reflected in a stereotypical "flamboyancy". Flamboyant This article is about the Gothic architecture style. For human trait of flamboyancy, see effeminacy. Denaar (talk) 16:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Flamboyant

message: Since the current one is from 2009, does anyone else think it would be a good idea to update it with something more recent? Perhaps a promo shot from 2011 or one of their latest tour pictures.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.41.213.167 (talk) 19:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless the band is broken up and no other image is available, then the image used in the infobox for a band must be freely licensed or in the public domain. The current image fits this description, but promotional shots probably won't. Also, 2009 really isn't that long ago compared to other images. 206.29.182.225 (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main Band Picture 

message: Can we change the various Metalcore, death metal and all the extreme styles simply with extreme metal?? They change and mix some of these styles in each song, and extreme metal can be used generally of course.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.29.140.77 (talk) 11:16, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, in the past, the infobox informed only "rock/metal" and provided a small shortcut for the "Musical style" section. Considering their diversity of sounds, it would be a better choice instead of listing multiple genres, since they have experimented with many rock/metal sub-genres.  Victão Lopes I hear you... 22:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extreme Metal? 

message: Should this section be included in the article?  I do not think it passes WP:NRV and WP:NTEMP.  It was a brief advertising campaign, has it had any further developments since?  If it hasn't, it should probably be removed from the article.  xcuref1endx (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scream for the Truth 

message: In the introduction there is this; "Billboard commenting on the group's international fanbase, wrote that the band "has transcended the language barrier in the United States through its music" and "gained its audience without singing in English".  This seems that it could have easily been entered into the article by Dir En Grey's publicists.  Does it add anything to the overall information of the article?  Would it be any different if there was just a comment on their international success?  The "trascending" of language barrier seems a bit excessive.  Any thoughts?  --Xcuref1endx (talk) 11:36, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promotional or Informational? 

message: Dir En Grey Yarouze doesn't meet WP:NBOOK or WP:GNG, but could be a useful merge and redirect here. Boleyn (talk) 09:20, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems like a good idea to me. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 04:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal: [[Dir En Grey Yarouze]] here