Talk:Turks in Germany

message: I have changed the class from start to B. 
*Referencing & citations ✔
*Coverage and accuracy ✔
*Structure ✔          
*Grammar and style ✔  
*Supporting materials ✔
Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article class 

message: The link: Statistisches Bundesamt (2008), Statistical Yearbook 2008 For the Federal Republic of Germany has automatically changed to the 2009 yearbook! So I will change the population figures of Turkish citizens from 1,713,600 (2008) to 1,688,370 (2009) which means that 25,230 have become German citizens this year.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 13:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statistical Yearbook 2009 

message: : What about Turkic people living in Germany? According to this reference  in 2006 there was:  15,219 from Azerbaijan,  57,203 from Kazakhstan,  9,221 from Kyrgyzstan,  1,303 from Turkmenistan and  8,767 from Uzbekistan. This equals to 91,713 Turkic nationals (excluding Turkey) 81.153.119.143 (talk) 13:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about ethnic Turkish people rather than Turkic peoples. Your statement could be mentioned however it would probably be better if new articles were created e.g. Azeris in Germany, Turkmen in Germany and so forth.Thetruthonly (talk) 19:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkic people 

message: Using "ethnicity" sounds discriminative, as some -if not most- of these people belong to a distinct etnicity (Caucasians, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Albanians etc). Also Turkish is a national noun, its ethnical counterpart should be Turkic which would include Azeris and others as well.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.209.22 (talk) 14:00, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any references stating that 'Caucasians, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Albanians etc' make up most the population? The fact that you believe that most of the Turks in Germany are not Turks is discriminative itself and evidently a bias view. Ethnic Turks make the majority of the population. This is all written in the demographics section. Moreover, other Turkic groups are not even stated in the article. Have you actually read the article? And to answer your question (in the sub-heading) this is an article about ethnic Turks. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  You may also find it useful to read previous archives. Though I suggest you read the article itself first.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the anon is talking about Turks from Bulgaria, Cyprus and Greece. These people are ethnic Turkish people. Many people seem to confuse Turkish people and Turkic people on wikipedia. But it is not that difficult! Turco85 (Talk) 17:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  In other words, this article is about ethnic Turkish people. Not Turkic people, nor other groups who have immigrated from Turkey. Kurds are only mentioned in this article because they are included in the population stats. Turco85 (Talk) 17:31, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkish Ethnicity or Nationality?

message: These to sections are lacking compared to the rest of the article. Lets improve it! Turco85 (Talk) 17:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political behaviour & Popular culture 

message: This article quotes a magazine called The Spiegel, stating that "only 14% have the Abitur (that's less than 50% compared to the German population, and also much lesser than other immigrated groups)", but I think The Spiegel got something wrong, because according to what I heard about that study on TV not 14% of turkish of any age-group, but 14% of turkish youngsters graduating from German schools this year received the Abitur. It is also not true that this is less than 50% compared to the German population. In 2008 only 18% of Germans of all age-groups held a Abitur (http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article2541399/Migranten-haben-oefter-Abitur-als-Deutsche.html). However it is true that ethnic German youngsters graduating from German schools that year were twice as likely as turkish youngsters to receive an Abitur. (Sorry for my english, it's not my native language).—212.201.83.30 (talk) 17:29, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this section needs to be removed because it is a biased article with no real academic reference like the rest of the article! In fact, this website  states that contrary to expectations, the children of (Catholic) German Italians perform worse in school than those of (Muslim) German Turks. 86.171.67.97 (talk) 23:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok. It looks like this article still has a lot of work. I encourage you all to help contribute towards the article. Just make sure that reliable references are being used. Thanks. Turco85 (Talk) 01:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with what the other IP (86.171.67.97) said. This source (which was written by a german educationist) states that German-Italian children were the least succesfull ethnic group when it comes to education and that the turkish had better success with the education system. Unfortunately there is no english version of that article.-- 212.201.82.76 (talk) 17:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont mind translating it. Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 01:44, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think p. 9 could be interesting: Am wenigsten Schulerfolg haben die Gruppen der
Staatsangehörigen Italiens und Serbien-Montenegros: in beiden Gruppen finden wir mehr
Sonderschüler als Gymnasiasten. Das Gros der Schüler in diesen beiden Gruppen ist darüber
hinaus in der Hauptschule zu finden, nur kleinere Prozentsätze besuchen Gymnasien und Realschulen.
Während diese Tatsache bei den Staatsangehörigen Serbien-Montenegros mit der
langen Tradition der Unterdrückung der Kultur der kosovo-albanischen Minderheit erklärt
werden kann, die für eine ganze Generation auch ein nichtfunktionierendes Schulsystem zur
Folge hatte, ist die Tatsache für die italienischen Kinder in Deutschland zunächst überraschend.
Sie wird deswegen ausführlicher behandelt. Die türkische Gruppe als größte Zuwanderergruppe
bietet zwar ein besseres Bild in bezug auf die Relation Gymnasiasten-
Sonderschüler, auch hier ist aber klar ein gravierender Überhang der Hauptschul-Population
zu erkennen. Wie der Aufsatz zu den Aleviten in unserem Band exemplarisch zeigt, gibt es
aber auch innerhalb der aus der Türkei stammenden Bevölkerung durchaus erfolgreiche
Gruppen. Zu berücksichtigen ist darüber hinaus, dass inzwischen etwa 700.000 Menschen
türkischen Ursprungs eingebürgert sind. Da dies tendenziell gut integrierte Zuwanderer sind,
wird der Bildungserfolg der türkischen Zuwanderer unterschätzt, wenn man auf die Definition
Staatsangehörigkeit abstellt, wie dies die amtliche Statistik tut.--Greatgreenwhale (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turks in Germany and the Abitur 

message: :Under previous German law, children born to foreigners in Germany were not entitled to German citizenship because the law was based on jus sanguinis, in other words on a blood connection.
I think this sentence is wrong, because while they were not automatically entitled of German citizenship, they still might apply for it. It was not like they were not allowed to apply.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 20:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But this is a fact. It was based on a blood connection... Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:58, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: All countries have jus sanguinis (blood based citizenship). I.e. US parents who give birth to a child abroad can without problem bring that child back to the US because due to jus sanguinis (blood) it is automatically awarded US citizenship. Likewise Germany's citizenship laws continue the principle of jus sanguinis, there has been NO CHANGE to it. Now, another completely different question is whether Germany did have an additional jus soli principle (citizenship by birth). And the answer is, no, German did not have jus soli, that was only ADDED recently. Is it thus justified to call Germany's old citizenship laws "blood based" as there has only been jus sanguinis? NO, because there are more citizenship principles than just jus sanguinis and just soli! Germany did award hundreds of thousands citizenships to people who do NOT fall under the jus sanguinis (blood) since many decades. These were granted depending on the years of legal stay in Germany. My own sisters migrated from Eritrea to Germany in the early 1980s and were soon granted citizenship due to the fact that they were staying legal (officially granted asylum) for the necessary number of years.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.61.234 (talk) 08:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know persons of non-German parentage born on German were not automatically granted German citizenship when they were born (as the case in other countires such as the USA), but still might apply. I never heard that persons of non-German parentage were not allowed to apply.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 11:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

text: You are correct, Greatgreenwhale. Everybody who was staying legally in Germany for a required number of years could apply for citizenship in the old law. I thus changed the sentence to be more specific. It now reads "...were not entitled to German citizenship by birth", which makes clear that the old law didn't stop them from applying later.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.61.234 (talk) 08:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citizenship 

message: Atheism is not a religion and therefore seems illogical to have in this section. Furthermore, the majority of Turks in Germany are actually more religious than in say Turkey or Cyprus were Secularism dominates.  Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 10:57, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is simply not true, although many European Turks might be more traditional than most in Turkey, figures from the Dutch Bureau of Statistics (CBS) indicates close to 20% of Dutch Turks do not have any religious affiliation. NeoRetro (talk) 23:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is about Turks in Germany not the Netherlands. Furthermore, this section of the info box is about religions. 'Nontheism' is not a religion.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 11:08, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nontheism IS about religon. NeoRetro (talk) 14:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe so but that does not make it a religion. It is actually against religion.Deutsch-Türkçe-English (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion section in info box 

message: The following section is being disputed. It seems as though one user by the name of Massadanarti does not see this sentence as a form of discrimination:
*'Foreign Armenian terrorists have also attacked the Turkish community in German streets'
I for one believe that the reference is a demonstration of racism towards the Turkish community and have therefore replaced the deleted sentence.Turco85 (Talk) 14:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I for one (and the "one" is a German living in Germany) see this sentence as bullshit. If anyone finds sources in German, Armenian or Turkish newspapers, it can be reinserted with exact dates and info about the occurences. It is definitely wrong to say terrorists had targeted "the community in the streets" as a general occurence. --141.70.81.136 (talk) 12:18, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrimination 

message: If "Turks in Germany" means "turkish ethnicity in Gemany", German and Turkish may be correct. If it means "People in Germany originating in Turkey", Kurdish must be included, as well as Armenian (to a lesser extend).
There are many Kurds from Turkey in Germany (who also speak Turkish), and some ethnic Armenians also immigrated. --141.70.81.136 (talk) 12:08, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the article is about ethnic Turks. Kurds are only mentioned within the citizenship statistics. One must not forget that many Kurds are also actually from Iraq and Iran, they do not all belong to people originating from Turkey.Turco85 (Talk) 12:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: the numbers given (up to 4 million people with at least partly background FROM Turkey) is not based on ethnicity but on (former) nationality it includes anybody from Turkey no matther what ethic group and it also includes people from the Turkish republic of Northern Cyprus (since Germany does not officially recognise the TRNC) 134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages 

message: Since many members of Christian minorities (Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) also emigrated to Germany, due to repressions by the Turkish state in the past, they form a larger percentage in the German-Turkish population than they do in Turkey. I don't have figures here, but I think they should be included in the Religion part of the infobox. -- megA (talk) 13:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be best to find sources before adding this.Turco85 (Talk) 18:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still looking for figures and have only found that there are 80,000 members of the Syriac Church in Germany, which would amount to 2% of the Turkish population (counted as 4 million). This is, of course, already more than the estimated 0.2% of all Christian denominations in Turkey, without counting Byzantine, Armenian, Roman-Catholic, and Protestant denominations. This survey only distinguishes between Sunni, Alevi, Shia Islam, "None", and "Others", which amount to 7%. The Christians are hidden in the 7%. Still looking for something citeable... -- megA (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: the UP to 4,000,000 number is NOT based on ethnicity but on (former) nationallity. it includes ALL people with an (partly) immigrant background FROM Turkey no matter what ethnic background those people have. it includes Turkey-Kurds, Turkey-Greeks, Turkey-Arabians, Turkey-Armenians,... m134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: According to census database, those with Turkish migrant background have the following religion: 55 410 roman-cath., 40 860 evangelical 3 990 free evangelical, 67 490 orthodox, 2 490 jewish, 792 030 other and 1 751 970 are unaffiliated with a religion established by statute. Muslims could fall in the last two groups. https://ergebnisse.zensus2011.de/?locale=en#dynTable:statUnit=PERSON;absRel=ANZAHL;ags=00;agsAxis=X;yAxis=MHGLAND_HLND:11,RELIGION_AUSF;tableBeliar (talk) 14:49, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 

message: Isn't this figure moot? For example a person born and raised in Germany, from one (ethnic) German parent and one (ethnic) Turkish parent is, by definition of the Statistisches Bundesamt, a German with migratory background. And thus part of the 3.5 or 4 million. So, is he Turkish or German? By law, he is German, not a "Turk with German citizenship". There is no such thing. "3.5 million people of Turkish origin living in Germany" – correctly phrased"...estimate that there are now more than 4 million Turks in Germany" Nope, there are 1.7 million Turks in Germany. 2.3 million are Germans with (half or full) Turkish ethnicity. -- megA (talk) 14:09, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I see your point. They are basically German citizens of Turkish descent. Much of the youth born in Germany do consider themselves "Turks" though, hence all the debate about integration going on at the moment; they are technically German citizens but not ethnically German. Thus, it is important to keep the 3.5-4 million estimates [alongside citizenship figs] which include descendents because the community will still consider themselves "Turks" [well German-Turks] once all have been natuarliased in the future anyway.Turco85 (Talk) 17:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, of course. My only point was actually with the phrasing, which, if using official statistics, should also be kept to the official definitions relevant to these statistics. That's the reason I changed the formulation in the infobox back. I'd like to see some statistics whether a single Turkish grandmother makes people see themselves as a member of the ethnicity. We're talking a child with (1) a German parent already born in Germany "with migratory background", and (2) a "full" German parent (whatever that means). Anyway, the statistics given, afaik, only count first- and second-generation immigrants, so the phrasing should be kept to the official definition. EDIT: Regarding "emotional integration": I just skimmed through the survey I mentioned in the "Religion" section here and found that 55% of Germans with Turkish ancestry have "strong emotional ties" with Germany, and 47% with Turkey. (You can have emotional ties with both countries, so the figures don't add up to 100%) In case of an act of war by Libya or Iraq (a muslim country was chosen on purpose), 50% of Germans with Turkish ancestry answered they would defend Germany, 18% would try to keep out of the conflict, and 24% were indecisive. (Figures for Turkish citizen in Germany were only different by a few percent). The study as a whole is very interesting, unfortunately, it's in German. -- megA (talk) 09:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: the up to 4 million people number is NOT based on ethnicity but on (former) nationality/citicenship (and since Germany does not recognize the Turkish REpublic of Nortern Cyprus it's citizen also get as a tecnicallity registerd an Turkish citizens) 134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Turks with German citizenship"=3.5 - 4 million? 

message: The numbers in the table provided in this section do not make much sense, especially the "percentage of Turks living in Germany", probably due to incremental editing without updating everything. First the numbers do not up to 100%, even accounting for rounding it's too far away, second, many of the numbers do not make sense - 60.000 Turks each in Bremen and Schleswig Holstein get different shares of the whole community, double pop figures do not mean double percentage features and so on. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population distribution 

message: This article says that 4-5% of the population has Turkish background, but according to Demographics of Germany 3,7% of the population has Turkish background. There should be a fact check on which number is correct in order not to let Wikipedia look contradictional.--Charlene1989 (talk) 07:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Percentage of persons with Turkish background - please factcheck 

message: This section is renamed to 'Integration Problems'. It can not be named as 'segregation'. None of the references, one of them is a dead link talks about segregation at all. Whoever initially started this, clearly extrapolating. Segregation is illegal in Germany and is not practice anywhere in Germany, including Ethnically rich cities. If there were any segregationist movement or views buy turks, law enforcement agencies certainly will intervene. Do not change the title to 'Segregation' before providing clear reference that there is a segregation movement or similar. 
--83.97.72.14 (talk) 21:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: the polling agency INFO has a good reputation and is cites by news agencies worldwide. Who says otherwise? I do not see any bias or reliability issues here--but I do see very relevant information. Rjensen (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: @Rjensen, source of the polling is not the problem. The problem is the interpretation of the polls and labelling as segregation. You can not attribute an interpretation of a 'sampling' study to LABEL whole ethnic community as "segregationist".  There are lots of turkish origin Germans who integrated into society pretty well. None of the references refer to any segregation issue. SEGREGATION IS A VERY STRONG WORD.  It is clearly an integration issue with the turkish community. Segregation is illegal in Germany. If there were any segregationist movement or views, law enforcement agencies certainly will intervene. Do not change the title to 'Segregation' before providing clear reference that there is a segregation movement or similar.
--83.97.72.14 (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: "segregation" has multiple meanings and what is meant here is self-segregation, which is increasing among the Turks in Germany. But yes it's a good idea to use "integration." Rjensen (talk) 06:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  @Rjensen. Yes, "self-segregation" is probably true in some form but none of the given references talks about self-segregation. If you read the article about self-segregation in Wikipedia, you should add there too if there is any self-segregation by turks in Germany. It still sounds like too hard a claim while It is an interpretation of the polls no where discussed in the references. If you have references that discusses self-segregation of turks in Germany please do add, otherwise please refrain to add that identification. You might be a social scientist adding your value to wikipedia but no original research is allowed in wikipedia. Moreover I think even self-segregation might be illegal if it was practices, German laws against any kind of inhumane treatment or segregation is one the most strictest in the world, for example refusing to serve non-members in the Doner shop or similar would be completely illegal. I never heard such a treatment in any turk-origin establishment in the press. If you have it then please add of course. 
--83.97.72.14 (talk) 01:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Segregation Section 

message: :::"segregation" has multiple meanings and what is meant here is self-segregation, which is increasing among the Turks in Germany. But yes it's a good idea to use "integration." Rjensen (talk) 06:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  @Rjensen. Yes, "self-segregation" is probably true in some form but none of the given references talks about self-segregation. If you read the article about self-segregation in Wikipedia, you should add there too if there is any self-segregation by turks in Germany. It still sounds like too hard a claim while It is an interpretation of the polls no where discussed in the references. If you have references that discusses self-segregation of turks in Germany please do add, otherwise please refrain to add that identification. You might be a social scientist adding your value to wikipedia but no original research is allowed in wikipedia. Moreover I think even self-segregation might be illegal if it was practices, German laws against any kind of inhumane treatment or segregation is one the most strictest in the world, for example refusing to serve non-members in the Doner shop or similar would be completely illegal. I never heard such a treatment in any turk-origin establishment in the press. If you have it then please add of course. 
--83.97.72.14 (talk) 01:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-segregation Claims 

message: @Rjensen, There are some original research works in ethnic segregation in Germany   [], Maybe you can write a separate article about this with your academic background in general. I think it is a generic issue with immigrants in the country and it must not be restricted to turks, this article. But I am not sure if these sources are acceptable in wikipedia standard, it still looks like OR, no original research policy.
--83.97.72.14 (talk) 02:39, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Residential segregation 

message: As I understand German officials do not distinguish between Turk and Kurd, but does anyone know what % of the est. 3.5 million Turks in Germany are of Kurdish origin? I would like to include this in the article if anybody knows. It's an important cultural distinction.Oxr033 (talk) 23:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The data are based on citizenship. If you can show me Spaniards and Basques in Germany separately listed, then we may think about that. Got it? --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurdish percentage in Germany 

message: What about Turks from bulgaria and greece. There has been a migration especially from bulgaria to germany. So the number of Turks in germany is higher than expected. One of the most famous Turk from greece is Cemile Giousouf (Cemile Yusuf), a parlamentarian.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.82.156.50 (talk) 10:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turks from Bulgaria and Greece 

message: ok,just for example,If there was a man who was of Turkish origin,And his parents were German citizens when he was born, but his grandparents were immigrants and arrived now Germany after 1955（Typical guest workers like many others), here is the question,would this gay or others like him be count as a man with Migrant background? or not?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 (talk • contribs) 09:55, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  person with Migrant background 

message: Useful link: http://www.dw.com/tr/almanyadaki-%C3%BCnl%C3%BC-t%C3%BCrkler/g-17016295  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.107.66 (talk) 09:17, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Almanya'daki ünlü Türkler 

message: This article obviously has various issues with Turkish ultra-nationalism. To name some examples:
* Apparently the term Turks in this article is supposed to refer to a set of people defined by affiliation to a certain citizenship, namely citizens or former citizens or descendants of citizens of the Republic of Turkey. However, I just had to delete a recently IP-inserted paragraph (off-topic in its section anyway) which sought to use the term Turks in opposition to Kurds, thus as an ethnicity.
* Apparently the term Turks in this article is supposed to refer to a set of individuals, namely citizens or former citizens or descendants of citizens of the Republic of Turkey. However, this article is full of instances of denying such individuality, instead forcing the individuals into a nationalistic collective called Turkish community and only considering them as part of said collective.
* This article lacks any discussion of the problems associated with organized Turkish ultra-nationalist political activism in Germany, both in the secular variety ("Grey Wolves") and Neo-Ottoman variety.
These issues should and must be addressed, for the article to do justice to its topic. I am seriously considering if a POV template is needed for the article. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 23:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues with Turkish ultra-nationalism in this article 

message: The doesn't seem to be a single questionable fact and the list offers a very nice overview. Authors have invested significant work here and if a single point is questioned it should be supported with a source instead of deleted. Deleting it all is utter nonsense. 
This looks like vandalism a lot! 06:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please restore the timeline 

message: I love the atheo-Turks. They are my brothers.
Comments are not allowed in Wikipedia, but we have to push in life to take our place, because the others don't respect us if we don't push for our rights.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8455:D100:3060:E6E8:A680:A948 (talk) 16:30, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  You've mentioned: Some Turks have converted to other religions or are irreligious/atheists 

message: I can't figure out how to add books to that further reading template: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/turkish-germans-in-the-federal-republic-of-germany/BEDD8126B86F81E3C59D178045A3D88D Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:28, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request: Add new book (study) to further reading 

message: Not to be pedantic, but the term "German Turks" or "German-Turkish" refers to Turkish people of German descent. The correct term for this article is "Turkish-German" (with or without hyphen). I'm changing the instances of this term in this article correspondingly. Similarly, "Turks in Germany" is also incorrect, unless it actually refers to Turkish citizens in Germany. I'm sure no one meant any harm using these phrases in this article, but I would argue for erring on the side of precision, not least given the historical difficulties Turkish-Germans have faced (and continue to face) in being recognized as "fully" German. --Tserton (talk) 08:44, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Tserton, would you then suggest a renaming of the article? Most the content is clearly about people of Turkish origins, regardless of whether they were an immigrant or a descendant. Many in the community still identify as "Turks" even if they have German citizenship. Further, if we look at Turks in Croatia, Turks in North Macedonia, Turks of Western Thrace, etc. none of these communities are Turkish citizens because they have been living there for centuries. Sseevv (talk) 13:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  German-Turkish vs. German-Turkish 

message: If I understand correctly, this has boiled down to a disagreement on the reliability of the sources.Having reread more of the discussion, the debate has become more narrowly about whether to include the census, so this exercise isn't immediately useful to solve that. I'll keep populating the table, though, because I'm still a bit confused about what the sources say and think it'd be useful to have an overview. I think it would be useful to gather the existing sources and what they say in a table. That might help put the dispute on a more solid footing and help uninvolved editors understand it. I'll create a new section below and put in a table template. Everyone please feel free to populate it - but don't put in clearly unreliable sources like off-the-cuff remarks by politicians. And keep it succinct. Unnecessary detail is the fastest way to turn people off reading something. --Tserton (talk) 06:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the first source, Stephen J. Blank et al., see the pdf here, it was actually published in 1993 and is therefore almost 30 years old. The 2002 publication is not a "newer version" - it is simply a reprint. And even if it were a revised publication (which it isn't) it would still be almost 20 years old and outdated. To reduce the number of sources in the infobox, I suggest we keep sources that were published within the last few years. Sseevv (talk) 09:36, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Tserton, I have already written what the sources say in the population section (and I have even placed the quotes for every reference in the templates too). If this exercise will make it clearer for you then that is fine. As I have previously said, I do not object to including both the low and high-end estimates in the infobox. But so far every source of 2 million has been very outdated. My main objection has been the census because it is not based on ethnicity and is already in the infobox footnotes. Sseevv (talk) 09:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm on board with what you wrote in "Academic estimates". I also agree that 2 million is unrealistically low. I'm just a bit curious why some of the sources diverge so much - I'm wondering about the methodology of the ones citing 7 million. Maybe they can be traced back to the original study (if there was one); I'd like to read it. I'll collapse the table since it's not that useful for now. --Tserton (talk) 12:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Generally, academics provide their own independent estimate - that's why they vary. Currently, footnote 3, i.e. William Reginald Horne & Zoran Pavlovic (2007) is the only estimate of 2 million in the infobox; moreover, it is the only non-academic source we have. Neither writer holds a PhD or an academic position. This should therefore be removed. Unless an up-to-date source can be provided by an academic scholar on 2 million, we should change the infobox estimates to ranging between 3 million and 7 million. Yet, even 3 million has been suggested since the late 1980s, see for example page 120 by Merryl Wyn Davies and Dr. Adnan Khalil Pasha's 1989 publication. To reduce references, I suggest that we place one source for each latest estimate. The rest can stay in the main article Sseevv (talk) 14:07, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources on the population of people of Turkish descent in Germany 

message: There is an extensive List of Turkish Germans page and therefore no need to repeat it all here. To avoid making the sub-headings extremely bulky it is best to place notable Turkish Germans who have gained prestigious awards, won elections, or represented a nation-state in sports/music etc. Most importantly, all information needs to be cited with references and written in a formal manner to fit the academic tone of this article. I have already volunteered to help expand this, and I more than welcome a discussion in which we can plan the best way to go about this. Sseevv (talk) 22:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable people 

message: I don't think the list of mosques adds to the article - quite the opposite, I think it breaks the flow of the page since most readers are just going to scroll past it. Also, currently only two of the mosques have their own articles on the English Wikipedia, so it's not clear how "notable" they really are. How do people feel about condensing it to 2-3 mosques and putting in some text instead? For example, there's a decent amount of interesting information about how Turkish mosques are run, like the controversial role of DİTİB. Alternatively (or additionally) we could split off the list into its own article, although I'm not sure it would survive a notability challenge given there's already a List of mosques in Germany. --Tserton (talk) 09:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be eager to expand with text, but after the infobox is dealt with. Sseevv (talk) 17:59, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

text: So! I would suggest doing away with the list of mosques entirely (with the rationale that it is reproduced in List of mosques in Germany) and replacing it with a single picture of one of the mosques - maybe the first or biggest one. If there is strong opposition to deleting the list, we could split it into its own article, although we might want to think of a more objective title than List of Turkish mosques in Germany as not all the mosques are formally affiliated with Turkey or even the Turkish-German community. --Tserton (talk) 10:00, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Condensing the list of mosques 

message: There are also Turkish speaking Muslim Roma in Germany. The first Group came as Gastarbeiter from Turkey, the so called Romanlar, (romani in turkey), the Host population saw them as Turks like other Ethnic Turkish Gastarbeiter. The second Turkish Muslim Roma Groups in Germany, are from Bulgaria and Romania (Dobruja), they came to Germany when Bulgaria and Romania became member of the EU. 
The first Group are fully assimilated in Turkish society in Germany, nobody look them as Romani people. They havent anything to do with other Romani-Groups. Nalanidil (talk) 16:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Well there is already the Romani people in Germany article. Sseevv (talk) 20:48, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish Roma