Talk:Claude Cahun

message: I agree Cahun is an influential artist, but the praise in sentences like, "[H]er androgynous self-portraits display a revolutionary way of thinking and creating, experimenting with her audience's understanding of photography as a documentation of reality." should be toned down so the article sounds more encyclopedic and less like a critical review of her work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.75.121  (talk • contribs) 03:26, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this section was edited by me to have a more neutral tone. Though it was revolutionary for the time it read too much like an advertisement or social commentary on her work. Dsobol0513 (talk) 00:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Check for neutrality 

message: #artandfeminism #NowEditingAF I'm looking at the book, Interfaces: Women Autobiography Image Performance, The University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor, 2005, edited by Sidonie Smith and Julia Watson. The article "Self-Representation as Symposium: The Case of Claude Cahun," by Georgiana M.M. Colville (p. 263-288) states on page 263 that Claude Cahun was born in 1904. However, this article, and Encyclopedia Brittanica state 1894, and another website says 1892. I'm not seeing a citation on the wikipedia page. Who should we trust? Sjrexplorer27! (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth Year Questionable 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The use of the pronouns "they" and "their" make this article incomprehensible, especially as much of Cahun's work was produced in collaboration with Moore. In sentences like "Their published writings include..." it is impossible to be sure who the actual author (or authors?) is (or are?).  I suggest that all such instances are replaced by either "Cahun" or "Cahun and Moore" as appropriate - better that the article is repetitive than meaningless! JezGrove (talk) 11:44, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Claude Cahun/Lucy Renee Mathilde Schwob was a woman, but if she refused this identity---and if the article wants to reflect and honour this---I would suggest "s/he" and "her/his" etc. The use of the plural pronoun does not work here, especially because sometimes she and her partner/collaborator Moore are involved. --WernR (talk) 22:54, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Citation supporting your assumption? Isn't it policy to follow Cahun's actual choices, not our guesses (however educated) of what Cahun might have chosen if transported to the 21st Century? NeoAdamite (talk) 05:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

text: To support Kali, the article itself quote Cahun as saying "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. neutral is the only gender that always suits me" Thereby proving that Cahun would prefer to go by they/them, as that is the "neutral" pronoun.  OctoToast 25 October 2021  — Preceding undated comment added 16:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not proof. Many people who identify as non-binary use traditionally-gendered pronouns, and it's not up to us retrospectively to re-pronoun her. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  They / Their 

message: I am a little uncertain about this artist being categorised as a non-binary artist when they lived at a time before the term non-binary existed. I think it is just worth discussing if the term ought to be applied to a person who lived at a different time, who isn't documented as applying the term to themselves. Many famous people throughout history may well have opted to identify as non-binary if they had been given the choice, but I am not sure about applying the term to them in retrospect - it can be speculative, and may disregard the fact that different mores and worldviews have existed at different times throughout history. Look at, for an obvious example, sexual mores in Ancient Greece. Totorotroll (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Claude explicitly rejected being exclusively termed as either male or female. "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. Neuter is the only gender that always suits me.", so classifying them as a female artist is clearly incorrect. They describe as being 'neuter', which is not a binary gender, hence non-binary. Non-binary literally means not male or female, which is precisely how they identified themselves. Ezraviah (talk) 18:57, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category non-binary artists? 

message: I've placed an editnotice at Template:Editnotices/Page/Claude Cahun.  has an optional source parameter, but it's not immediately clear to me whether there's one obvious source to point to, so much as editors' overall assessment of how she referred to herself, so I've added a discussion parameter to the template. If anyone has any questions, comments, or concerns about the editnotice, please let me know.  -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 06:30, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editnotice 

message: I suggest that the editors change all of the "she/her" pronouns on the page to "they/them", as Claude did not identify with "she/her" pronouns. Pokem307 (talk) 13:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion above already discussed this issue and came to the consensus that changing them wouldn't be necessary. If you have any further evidence or sources proving that they would have used they/them pronouns, further action could be taken. ― Levi_OPTalk 15:07, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 

message: Change neutral to neuter in the quote "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. Neutral is the only gender that suits me."
It was changed to neutral because someone thought neuter was a mistake, but given Claude's fluency in German, which has a neuter gender, and the fact that all the other websites featuring the quote also use neuter rather than neutral, even without access to the source book, it seems obvious to me that neuter is correct. 74.110.113.205 (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: after verifying the translation used in the book. (Although really neutre could be translated either way; but we should defer to published translations when possible.)  -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 17:26, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (2) 

message: Change "anti-Semitism" to "antisemitism". 2600:1700:5120:1A80:C43A:CFFD:BF97:2100 (talk) 16:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Alduin2000 (talk) 19:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (3) 

message: In the third and fifth sentences, change Claude Cahun's pronouns from "she" to "they". AGATSUMA (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: . Please see discussion above.  -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 17:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (4) 

message: They are best known as a writer and self-portraitist, who assumed a variety of performative personae.
Cahun's work is both political and personal. In Disavowals, they writes: "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. Neuter is the only gender that always suits me."[4] Telichty (talk) 17:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be clearer about your requested change. --BDD (talk) 17:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (5) 

message: "Schwob adopted the pseudonym Claude Cahun in 1914.[3] She is best known as a writer and self-portraitist, who assumed a variety of performative personae"
In the second sentence, Shwob is referred to as "she" where throughout the rest of the article they are referred to using they/them pronouns. I believe the use of she in this sentence is most likely incorrect and should be changed to "They are best known as a writer and self-portraitist..." 132.205.229.60 (talk) 17:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: . This article is currently frozen at what we call The Wrong Version, but changing it in either direction would just further the edit war, so let's leave it for now. You're welcome to join the discussion a few sections up.  -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 18:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (6) 

message: Tenses are all over the place, needs to be standardized and fixed Kaylahawk (talk) 17:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past or present tense 

message: Claude claimed gender fluidity and should therefore not be referred to as she and you shouldn't change it based on your opinion. Kalebrown87 (talk) 00:43, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. See discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:16, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2021 

message: I remember back in the late 1980s or early 1990s, a chap called John Wakeham, who had once done some removals for us, told us about a house clearance for which he had been responsible.  In the house, he had come across a stash of items that he recognised as important surrealist artworks, and took to be valued.  If it had not been for this man's good eye, many of Claude Cahun's works would have ended up at the dump. 185.48.61.221 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finding of many of Claude Cahun's works