Talk:Padmasambhava

message: There are many scholarly articles which suggests that Oddiyana is recognized more likely with Uddiyana or Odra Desha - present day Odisha. Most of the Mahayana Buddhist belive it is somewhere near the Mahanadi and Baitarani delta. Padmasambhava was son of King Indrabhuti who is known to have ruled Shambhala which is Sambalpur in Odisha. I suggest that we make it balanced by saying that "Oddiyana is a place in North India which is recognized with Odisha. Few historians also point it to SWAT valley in Pakistan. As it is very difficult to settle down with one location(as per Wiki guidelines) we need to make it balanced. As there is a equal consensus of it being in Odisha as well. I suggest a move here.216.163.246.1 (talk) 14:39, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Exact location of Oddiyana

message: I think it's useful to compare the opening section of this article with the corresponding article in Britannica -- http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/438026/Padmasambhava
To me, an educated lay person with no expertise in this topic -- i.e. a perfect example of the intended audience of Wikipedia -- Britannica's is *vastly* superior. Its opening matches pretty much everything I *have* read on Padmasambhava, and doesn't muddy things up with references to "literary character[s]" (whatever *that* means), "terma" or "tertons" (the fact that both of those are linked to their master articles doesn't, to my mind, excuse their use in the opening). The linked article at http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Padmasambhava is also superior in my opinion.
I've added a "too technical" tag, although "too obscure" would be more accurate. Could someone knowledgeable simplify the opening, and move the extraneous stuff down into the main article?Thomask0 (talk) 18:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not see your post until now and agree with your POV. Please see this section where I'm attempting to sort this out.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 20:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Compare opening with Britannica

message: Older discussions are archived here.Bahnheckl (talk) 16:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Created archive for resolved discussions

message: Can anyone provide the pronunciation for his name in in Devanagari and the International Phonetic Alphabet?  My main question is which A s are long, and which are short?  This has a big effect on how the word sounds.  
Psmeers (talk) 09:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Digitial Dictionary of Buddhism says its Padmasaṃbhava, so that would mean none of the a's are long, and it would be पद्मसंभव, [pəd̪məˈsəmbʱəʋə].—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 05:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation of article name?

message: The fact that he is the patron saint of Sikkim is only mentioned in the picture's title. Could some info on the history of this be added to the text of the article? Wiki-uk 09:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patron saint of Sikkim 

message: On German wikipedia site the eight manifestations mentioned there are not completely the same. That Guru Orgyen Dorje Chang is lacking on the german site, instead there is a Guru Tsokye Dorje who is lacking on english wikipedia site (this one).
Does anybody know about those different names? Are they thought to be different people?
:Austerlitz -- 88.72.24.214 (talk) 14:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.70.113 (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.72.1.30 (talk) 14:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eight manifestations 

message: *Shakyadevi
*The Five Consorts
Shouldn't all of them be mentioned?
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.75.51 (talk) 19:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: would summaries of the activities of each of the five consorts, with references, be useful? I say yes. I'm happy to work on this section and I can start a second sandbox for those of you who would like to add content, review, or make suggestions. AD64 (talk) 17:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Five consorts 

message: *Eight Wishes to the Manifestations of the Vajra Guru
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.87.175 (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eight Wishes

message: * see: the Model of Padmasambhava's Oath Binding
*Buddha Gallery — Padmasambhava
Some more information should be added to the article.
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.74.240 (talk) 11:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.216.130 (talk) 17:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.203.240 (talk) 08:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Padmasambhava's Oath Binding

message: why there is tibetan script but no devanagari?
201.201.1.162 (talk) 13:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  no devanagari? 

message: What is the deal with inserting the quote in the lead?VictoriaGraysonTalk 21:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: The lead currently dismisses Padmasambhava as an obscure sorcerer. This does not appear to be the general opinion as per EB and others. The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism's entry begins:
This is quite contrary to the sentiment currently expressed in the lead of this article.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 06:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you even read the sentence of your quote which says "It is difficult to assess the many legends surrounding his life and deeds, although the scholarly consensus is that he was a historical figure and did visit Tibet."  This is pretty much what the lede says.  And the rest of the entry, which you did not quote, expands on this idea. Lastly, your text says Nyingmas "view him as a" founder. It does not say he is a founder.VictoriaGraysonTalk 15:30, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've rewritten/restructured the lead in accordance with the mainstream view which does not regard him as an obscure sorcerer who was chased out of Tibet but as a historical figure who brought Tantric Buddhism to Tibet. Please have a look.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 19:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your own sources contradict you as I already pointed out.  EB says legendary.  You clearly lack WP:COMPETENCE.VictoriaGraysonTalk 20:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "Legendary" does not mean "fictional". Dharmalion76 (talk) 11:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

text:  I recommend acquainting yourself with a dictionary and a better tone of conversation.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 20:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop engaging in WP:TE.VictoriaGraysonTalk 20:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

text: There are so many problems with your edits, I don't even know were to begin.  But to get to the heart of the issue, read this passage from a Tibet A History, which is a basic history book written by top Tibetologist Sam van Schaik:
VictoriaGraysonTalk 16:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

text: "Top tibetologist" as opposed to Donald S. Lopez, Jr., Robert Buswell, Jr., Per Kværne, Kurtis Schaeffer, et al.? The heart of the matter as per the quoted passage is that the "alternative story"  (the 8th century figure)  which is pretty much what everybody is saying. Historical figure first and terma discovery next; dismissing the historical figure in the summary is effectively OR. From the Historical Dictionary of Buddhism by Carl Olson:
From A Dictionary of Buddhism by Damien Keown:
From the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions by John Bowker:
… and so on. --Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 05:26, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I already pointed out a few times your sources contradict your claims. Secondly, the lede mentions the historical Padmasambhava very clearly in paragraph 3.VictoriaGraysonTalk 05:29, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:   They do not. Your version of the lead does not give prominence to the historical figure and dismisses him as an obscure sorcerer. Note that all cited sources begin by referring to the historical figure and credit him with the introduction of Buddhism into Tibet. Piecing together disparate statements and coming up with a summary of your own making is OR. Your preferred lead is not in keeping with the widely stated summary of Padmasambhava by "Top Tibetologists".--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 05:39, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "obscure Indian sorcerer" is a direct quote from an academic book by Ronald Davidson. And the Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism does not credit Padmasambhava with the introduction of Buddhism into Tibet.VictoriaGraysonTalk 05:41, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

text: "Obscure Indian sorcerer" is neither the mainstream view nor the preferred terminology. And re:the Princeton Dictionary:
This qualified statement is in keeping with the other sources as it credits the figure of Padmasambhava with the introduction (arrival) and establishment of Buddhism in Tibet.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 11:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

text: No, it says he played a role in the "NARRATIVE" of the Buddhism's arrival in Tibet, "Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet".  VictoriaGraysonTalk 16:15, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hence the use of "qualified" in my previous reply as well as the phrasing "" in my edit. Lopez and Buswell are following up on their previous statement where they state that  You will notice that the other sources use similar wordings ("", ""). Anyhow, is this your only gripe with my edit? I'm happy to have the wording tweaked accordingly. If you're opposed to the other parts of the edit as well, then I'd like to refer this issue to whatever mediation process WP has in place to resolve editorial disputes. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Princeton Dictionary merely says he was a "historical figure and did visit Tibet". It does NOT say he introduced Buddhism. VictoriaGraysonTalk 15:42, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The obscure sorcerer 

message: I've noticed your ongoing quarrels, and didn't dare to dive into it. I will now, though. But could the two of you please stop reverting back-and-forth? Please add some tag to the article, with a link to the relevant talkpage-section, and try to work this out, with the help of others, like me. I'll need some time to read and understand the contested text, but I will, I promise. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:08, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Thanks. --Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 16:16, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You are still edit warring.VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:51, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. Please stop. The problem has been noticed, and I will look into it. Promised. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:13, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  You will notice that my revert restores a pre-issue version of the article along with tags. Isn't this the preferred state when an issue is under mediation?--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 13:18, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please pause 

message: The 3,063 version:
;Notes
Do the two of you agree on this part? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to a slightly revised version per here:
;Notes
VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:38, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Oppose revised version. Primacy should be given to the historical Padmasambhava on whom everything else is based as in my edit as well as the referenced sources. VG also wants to remove all mention of the Nyingma sect and their views on Padmasambhava from the article for some reason.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:35, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits give primacy to the mythological Padmasambhava.VictoriaGraysonTalk 15:47, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  My edits paraphrase the text of the cited references. The references (all of them) give primacy to the historical Padmasambhava. Please peruse them here. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:52, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My edits are based on secondary academic sources.  Your edits are based on original research and misunderstanding tertiary sources.VictoriaGraysonTalk 15:54, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree. In any event, if you believe that I'm misreading these tertiary sources, please paraphrase the Princeton dictionary entry that begins Indian Buddhist master and tantric adept widely revered in Tibet and put that up for comment. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 16:03, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Princeton dictionary says he played a role in the "NARRATIVE" of the Buddhism's arrival in Tibet, "Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet".VictoriaGraysonTalk 16:07, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Ah, it works! This is already very enlightening: "historical Padmasambhava" versus "mythological Padmasambhava." That's a quicky. reading the sources will take more time... Anyway, thanks already both for enlightening me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:47, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Literary character

message: Or do we start with this one, from the 4,811 version:
;Notes
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose.VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:36, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Support.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:35, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm. "Legendary" may mean "great, immense," but it may also mean something akin to "mythological," right? Nice irony; you're both being served here ;) NB: User:Cpt.a.haddock/Padmasambhava gives the quotes for all these references? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:49, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I think that the first line is fine. It gives ample opportunity to elaborate on both the "historical" and the "mythological" part. Vic has sharply noticed that allmost all sources actually say that most stories on him are legendary stories, and that Padmasambhava himself therefore is legendary. He has also intriduced a solid fact, namely that Padmasambhava plays a key role in the therma. And Captain has emphasized the role he has in the story of the establishment of Tibetan Buddhism; a story and role which gives him a more realistic appearance. It seems to me that both (or all three) are correct; it's a matter of phrasing. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:20, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Legendary Indian [[Buddhist]] master

message: Remove or include the sorcerer?
NB: the term "sorcerer" is not explained in the article. It would be good to explain this term. And then, still, alternatives may be simply "him," or 'Padmasambhava, also known as the "obscure Indian sorcerer" and as "the second Buddha." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You can remove sorcerer and just say:
VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Oppose. This is tackled better in my edit. Chased out is also too harsh without context. IMO, this should be addressed in a separate section mentioning the differing views on the duration of Padmasambhava's stay in Tibet. This view should mention the court intrigue behind his exit from Tibet.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:35, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly is "my edit"? At least is the sorcerer is gone. "Chased out" may be reformulated. Is there a section on this court intrigue? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:50, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, I didn't see this reply of yours until now. By "my edit", I meant the one to the article that rewrites the lead. "Court intrigue" is covered in the Testament of Ba in Sam Schaik's book. IMO, details of Padmasambhava's stay should be covered in the body of the article as there are multiple versions of the story (mythological or otherwise).--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 11:32, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

text:  FYI, I've added the Schaik excerpt.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:05, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorcerer

message: And is this to be included or excluded? Also depends on "legendary Indian master," doesn't it?
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Include. This is my compromise to include Cpt.a.haddock's info.VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:47, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Depends on the lead-up to this statement. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:35, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Ypu mean: how do we mention both the historical and the mythological part? Yes. I'll have to read sources. Thanks for your input, both of you. This part of the problem is clear, at least to me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:52, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Key role

message: ====The "Padmasambhava cult"====
Next. What we've got now is Captain's preferred version, right? May I suggest that we simply add Vic's info?:
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Zulupapa5 made some weird edits.VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:33, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Terma are Guru Rinpoche teachings revealed at an appropriate time.  Özer la revealed Guru Rinpoche story in Zanglingma, as an authoritative source. This makes it the primary source art compiled in the Rinchen Terdzö terma collection.  To imply that Zanglingma is constructed architecture, really misses key points in the visionary creative process that Tibetan masters train to bring relativity constructed truths in union with ultimate truths. So many sources discuss terma as revealed treasures, why folks want to force mythos into this article is interesting, and really undue.  Mythos should be attributed to Janet Gyatso architectural creativity where VG picks up on it to propose forking.  Was surprised to see this article seems to overlook Zanglingma attribution.  Guess, I should be busy on Rinchen Terdzö indexing, translating and referencing to complementary standards.  It's about maybe a 8 x 10 ft library shelf compendium. On my bucket list but, computers do so faster these days.  Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 06:06, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's undue; those are two fundamentally differnt ways of looking at this topic. The "insiders-view" should also be mentioned - but from an "outsiders-view," I'm afraid, since this is an encyclopedia, not a faith-manual. Thanks for responding, by the way. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The insiders have at least 2700 years of outsider scholarship on these secret methods. Disrespecting this illustrates Wikipedia editorial bias.  Would suggest avoiding the NPOV karma on that. Kindly, Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Then Hindus will say Krishna existed 5,000 B.C. Mormons will say Jesus visited America. We cannot take a religious view on Wikipedia.VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:28, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Bogus, speak for the sources. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 15:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Subjugation of local relions

message: Next. What we've got now is Captain's preferred version, right? May I suggest that we simply add Vic's info?:
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: The "Padmasambhava cult"

message: This part is not clear to me:
* I do understand "Nyangrel Nyima Özer (1136-1204) was the principal architect of the Padmasambhava mythos," but what is "the Padmasambhava biography terma art revealer"?
* What's the relevance of "Zanglingma (Jeweled Rosary) is Nyang Ral Nyima Özer's Guru Rinpoche terma biography. It's in the vast treasury Rinchen Terdzö collection."
* And "Guru Chöwang (1212–1270) was the next major contributor to the cycle." Which cycle? 
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Zulupapa5 made some weird edits.VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:33, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Terma are Guru Rinpoche teachings revealed at an appropriate time.  Özer la revealed Guru Rinpoche story in Zanglingma, as an authoritative source. This makes it the primary source art compiled in the Rinchen Terdzö terma collection.  To imply that Zanglingma is constructed architecture, really misses key points in the visionary creative process that Tibetan masters train to bring relativity constructed truths in union with ultimate truths. So many sources discuss terma as revealed treasures, why folks want to force mythos into this article is interesting, and really undue.  Mythos should be attributed to Janet Gyatso architectural creativity where VG picks up on it to propose forking.  Was surprised to see this article seems to overlook Zanglingma attribution.  Guess, I should be busy on Rinchen Terdzö indexing, translating and referencing to complementary standards.  It's about maybe a 8 x 10 ft library shelf compendium. On my bucket list but, computers do so faster these days.  Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 06:06, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's undue; those are two fundamentally differnt ways of looking at this topic. The "insiders-view" should also be mentioned - but from an "outsiders-view," I'm afraid, since this is an encyclopedia, not a faith-manual. Thanks for responding, by the way. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The insiders have at least 2700 years of outsider scholarship on these secret methods. Disrespecting this illustrates Wikipedia editorial bias.  Would suggest avoiding the NPOV karma on that. Kindly, Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Then Hindus will say Krishna existed 5,000 B.C. Mormons will say Jesus visited America. We cannot take a religious view on Wikipedia.VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:28, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Bogus, speak for the sources. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 15:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Nyangrel Nyima Özer

message: To be done later. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Nyingma

message: Only solution is to have 2 Padmasambhava articles.  One on the mythological Padmasambhava.  One on the historical Padmasambhava.VictoriaGraysonTalk 15:56, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, as that could be a WP:CONTENTFORK.  I think that two different sections in this article might address the issue, though.  Start with the real human who gave rise to the mythical aspects, perhaps? Montanabw(talk) 17:17, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: They are pretty cleanly two different things.VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:52, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Two articles is not a solution, of course. How much is there known about the historical Padmasambhava? NB: his (whether hitorical or mythological) importance for Tibetan Buddhism is not in question, is it? That's the next part, isn't it? Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:54, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The historical Padmasambhava does not have much importance to Tibetan Buddhism.VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:55, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

text: An RfC could be used to see if people want 2 articles: Padmasambhava (historical) and a Padmasambhava (mythological) article.VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:25, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be terminated right-away, as a coatrack or contentfork. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:50, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  So duality happens to be non-dual for content forks, dissolving them into edit history and finding middle view with NPOV.   There are mythic things happening on Wikipedia too. Remind me which source has the mythological reference to even consider making an article around it?  Sounds to me like folks are making things up to push and vacuous point about Terma discovery, largely unseen outside the Nyingma school.  The Dali lama has a recent powerful new terma, that is Nyingma confirmed. Yes, Nyingma can be the Tibetan root to all the Tibetan schools cannon expansion, no matter the size or follower counts.  When Nyingma scholars find a discrepancy, well ... just heard about one tonight the later schools may adopted to change. This figure has many names and that reference to the same person, suggesting to get all the names in article and work with them to expand.   Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:44, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

text: The mythological sources are few if any, points to terma; which are very clearly, over an over again in mantras,  described as Guru Rinpoche discovered treasures.  Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:11, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Dalai Lama revealed a terma?VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:52, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Kilaya Tantra Gurkhukma Branch: Heart Sacred Bond Sole Kilaya ... wait ... have to verify.  Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 06:50, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: any news on the Dalai Lama's terma, ? I'm curious to know as well.AD64 (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only solution 

message: I'd like to move the section on the five consorts out of the icongraphy section. It is degrading to have the only mention of these important women practitioners, and founders of Tibetan Buddhism, be listed as "attributes" in iconography. I propose they get their own section, just as the 25 main disciples get a section. What are your thoughts and suggestions on this? 05:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the five consorts are more appropriately grouped with the 25 disciples. Perhaps make a heading "Disciples and consorts", with subheadings "Twenty-five main disciples" and "Five main consorts". 17:51, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your input, . I appreciate your idea about the structure and it makes even more organizational sense than what I was considering. I'll make the change soon and am open to comments, suggestions, and other input. It's so clear to me that collaboration produces better articles. Thanks again and best wishes, AD64 (talk) 18:21, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving section on five consorts 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi 49.37.46.178 (talk) 17:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bengali