Talk:List of Polish people/Archive 2

message: User:Antidote aka User:HotelRoom, who has arbitrarily deleted several people from this list, is subject to a request for comment for repeated violations related to lists by country and sock puppetry, please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Antidote.--Pecher 13:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC on [[User:Antidote]]

message: I kindly ask all the partcipants of the discussion to sign their comments. Thanks.--Pecher 07:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for listening. I have removed the "unsigned comment" templates.--Pecher 07:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Feel free to remove the signature then and put the unsigned template there:   . It is customary to sign comments with four tildas  ~~~~ . To do that, you can press the second button from the right. Also, please make sure that you have logged in under your username before editing.--Pecher 08:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Signing comments

message: What happened to the photo of Poland's manhood Mariusz Pudzianowski? Informationguy
You didn't source it or tag it - that's why it was deleted. I don't think its controversial. Antidote 18:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mariusz Pudzianowski, Poland's answer to Arnold Schwarzenegger 

message: Please, ask before moving someone to the list of Polish painters. Sometimes those artists simply didn't paint a single picture, or like Rajkowska do things like a huge palm in Warsaw's street, and painting is only one of the skills she posseses but not her general domain. Some people are both painters and sculptors, and should be on both lists. Murak makes sculptures with grass, Kulik - mostly photographs and video arts, she's also a performer, Kozyra does video arts and photography.--SylwiaS | talk 23:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  fine arts and painters 

message: Look at the many Poles of Polish ethnicity there's Richard Kuklinski I wasn't the one who edited that article you can check the page history there's sources there too, but here's also some sources: http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iceman , http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iceman/photo_album/ ,
http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iceman/richard/family.JPG . And don't forget to read the article, you can do that by clicking on it.
:Thanks, but I didn't remove Kuklinski :)--SylwiaS | talk 06:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic Poles 

message: # I never said that Poles changing religion would stop being Polish. I said that Poles marrying Jews in 19th century would raise their kids as Catholics and give them Catholic names. How Polonia members call their kids today is irrelevant to this case. What names are given to Poles born in Poland even today you can check in Polish phone books. List of names of many millions of Poles should be enough for a proof. Unless you’re going to argue that only people with traditional Polish names are allowed to have a phone number. Jews in Poland today rarely give their children non-Polish first names. It’s a sign of assimilation. It wasn’t the case before the war. Anyhow, many people of 100% Jewish ethnicity have Polish surnames. Check here: Family_name#Ashkenazi_Jewish_surnames. Polish surname didn’t mean assimilation. Maybe you should also read History of the Jews in Poland. Also, here is more information on various topics: Intermarriage of Poles , intermarriage of Jews FAQ , examples of intermarriage – you can see how many kids of Jews and Catholics are raised as Jews even now, adhering to Judaism in such cases was much less probable in 19th century Poland , Jewish intermarriage statistics , here is the only one known convert to Judaism Valentine_Potocki as you can see he’s totally legendary. Some Polish Catholics did convert but to Protestantism.
# The situation of Jews in Germany was much different than in Poland. It shouldn’t be taken as an example. In Poland Jews made about 8-10% of all Polish citizens. Before WWII about 10% of them were assimilated. It doesn’t mean that they all intermarried. It also doesn’t mean that in 19th century there was 10% of assimilated Jews in Poland, on the contrary.
# Polish-Jewish origin means that someone is both partly Polish and partly Jewish. Polish Jew means an ethnic Jew living in Poland. If the Jew leaves Poland, he’s no more a Polish Jew only e.g. an American Jew. A member of American Polonia is not a member of English Polonia. Aaron Kosminski was a Jew born in Poland, similarly as Paul von Hindenburg was a German man born in Poland. Neither Kosminski’s nor Hinderburg’s children born abroad would be Polish. Their ethnicity wasn’t Polish, no matter how the name sounds.
# Please, don’t change the description of who should be on the list of Poles and who shouldn’t be. Things like that should be discussed first.
# There are some people on the list, who shouldn’t be there. It doesn’t justify adding more people without any references to their ethnicity. It only means that the list should be cleaned up.
# I didn’t write that all papers were burnt only that all papers were burnt in the buildings that were burnt. Today professional historians have difficulties with investigating some facts referring to WWII history, and you claim that you can trace the genealogy tree of anyone born here even hundreds years ago. Well, good luck.
# Many Poles have names that you wouldn’t consider Polish, as you seem to stick to the general trend as a strict rule. It doesn’t mean that the people are not Poles.
# I read authors like Mikołaj Rej and Shakespeare, or rather I should say, I’m not 6 year old, and I accomplished my education.
# Please, don’t disrupt my post. Give your answer below.--SylwiaS | talk 08:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I gave you many sources to read. So please, read them and bring sourced contre-arguments. Not your WP:POV.--SylwiaS | talk 19:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification 

message: Historical territory means the territory that was considered Polish in times when someone was born, even if it was under occupation. People born in Wrocław or Szczecin in 19th century shouldn't be added here, because the cities are not considered Polish in reference to 19th century.--SylwiaS | talk 09:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical territory vs. current territory 

message: Ok, I'm finished for now. I'll look at the list once again tomorrow. I still have some doubts. The same may be done to some other lists e.g. musicians or literature. But not everything at once. Please, adding article/stub remember to announce it here. Also, here you may check our subcategories for artists :Category:Polish artists.--SylwiaS | talk 04:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artists 

message: Here is a very interesting list that I have found just now, but Informationguy knew about it all the time as the article's history clearly shows List of Polish Americans. So now, you take all your Polish American killers, footballplayers, actors etc there, and let Poles have their list. It's unthinkable that there is no more place for great Poles, and I have to move them to separate lists, while tens of people not familiar to Poles are added to the article. Go and create lists for Polish Canadian, Polish Brits and whatever you like. There's no place for all the people here. And no, I don't object to killers only. I object to everyone who wasn't famous in Poland. And yes, there are black Poles in Poland, and they are Poles!--SylwiaS | talk 06:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish Americans 

message: Who should be listed on the list of Poles? I don’t mean all the additional lists, only this one here that is the main list for the most famous Poles.--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course. Those two are currently on the list Werner von Blomberg , born 1878,  Stargard Szczeciński; Manfred von Richthofen, born 1892, Wrocław. It was already agreed with Antidote that I may remove them, but since I decided to do the voting, I thought it would be better to have a concensus on it.--SylwiaS | talk 10:21, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Warsaw goes with the first question. It was occupied Polish territory. Here are only places that weren't Polish before occupation, partition etc. So e.g. during partitions Poznań is considered Polish, while Wrocław or Smoleńsk are not.--SylwiaS | talk 23:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if someone insists we can have a separate list for them. E.g. famous people with Polish heritage. They are famous people, and they may be partly Polish, but you would never consider them famous Poles, so they should go to another place.--SylwiaS | talk 23:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually you answered the question yourself writing about your upbringing above. Jews in Poland observed very different customs than Poles. There was almost no assimilation. It started to change in 20th century and so before WWII about 10% of Jews were assimilated, what in practice means that they spoke Polish. So imagine, if people lived for centuries in Poland without even learning the language, how different were those two words. There are chances that Polish parents would pass some Polish traditions to their children, but Jewish parents would pass only Jewish traditions that they cultivated here and would cultivate elsewhere. Their children would know that their parents were born in Poland, but they wouldn't feel Polish, not even they would consider their parents Polish. Similarly you can check Volga Germans. Their children wouldn't be Russian by any streach.--SylwiaS | talk 11:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, the article about Volga Germans didn't discribed the whole story. Here's a bit more . Generally in 19th century they lived in separate communes.--SylwiaS | talk 12:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly. One doesn't have to fit all the categories, but just one of them to be considered a Pole. On the other hand, I really think that all the people who fit at least one of the categories should be listed as famous Poles in their own domain e.g. famous painter, writer etc, so Grazyna Miller may be listed on the List of Polish writers if she's indeed famous, but she shouldn't be listed here, because she's not one of the most famous Poles.--SylwiaS | talk 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voting 

message: ==== By Informationguy ====
*I want a vote on the introductory paragraph, so to be perfectly clear as to who's opinion wins.  Informationguy
*None of those people have Polish family names "but they have Polish surnames" Wrong, those family names are only Partly-Polish. Informationguy
"or whose surnames may seem Polish". Wrong again,  most of those family names are only Partly-Polish indicating that those people are only vaguely connected to Poland.  
* Most Ethnic Poles have fully Polish family names. Informationguy
Howard Scott Warshaw, Andy Warhol, Joseph L. Mankiewicz, Paul Mazursky, Adrien Brody, [[Robert Siodmak, Zeev Suraski, Sergei Sakhnovski Those don't seem Polish, some are Partly-Polish names, this one is only Polish at the "Mazur" part like "Mazursky" but it has the Russian/Ukrainian "sky". 
*Sakhnovski, the "v" added is Russian, and the affix seems visible Russian as well but it's partly Polish because of the ski. Informationguy
*Adrien Brody, how exactly is this name Polish? 
*Joseph L. Mankiewicz, the "man" part seems to be of Germanic origin, i.e. Hofmann, Reichmann, etc. It seems to be Partly-Polish. Informationguy
*I clearly stated that there is a difference between fully Polish family names, and family names that are Partly-Polish either at the affix or the suffix. Yet again, Sywlia shows her disregard for the truth and denies the existence of visible Polish family names. Informationguy
There are: 
*Fully Polish family names 
and 
*Part Polish family names (either at the suffix or affix) 
If you continue to repeat your ignorance, this is known as a copy and paste situation and we need a referee. 
*And what about people with a more visible Polish ethnic connection like having a Polish family name! That counts for either having a visible connection with Poles and/or the Polish language and/or Polish ethnicity. 
*It seems that according to Sywlia, being Polish is a choice. Informationguy
*While in the life of an Ethnic-Pole, being Polish is not a choice. Informationguy
==== By Piotrus ====
Quite a few of those where I voted oppose, I meant 'they are not enough', however obviosuly they are not meant as 'they disqualify' a person from being Polish. I think that as long as a person qualifies into at least one of the statements we vote for, he or she is a Pole - but if that person does not fit into any of those, this case should be discussed here and not added to the main article unless a consensus is reached for an exception.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. One doesn't have to fit all the categories, but just one of them to be considered a Pole. On the other hand, I really think that all the people who fit at least one of the categories should be listed as famous Poles in their own domain e.g. famous painter, writer etc, so Grazyna Miller may be listed on the List of Polish writers if she's indeed famous, but she shouldn't be listed here, because she's not one of the most famous Poles.--SylwiaS | talk 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: Quite a few of those where I voted oppose, I meant 'they are not enough', however obviosuly they are not meant as 'they disqualify' a person from being Polish. I think that as long as a person qualifies into at least one of the statements we vote for, he or she is a Pole - but if that person does not fit into any of those, this case should be discussed here and not added to the main article unless a consensus is reached for an exception.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. One doesn't have to fit all the categories, but just one of them to be considered a Pole. On the other hand, I really think that all the people who fit at least one of the categories should be listed as famous Poles in their own domain e.g. famous painter, writer etc, so Grazyna Miller may be listed on the List of Polish writers if she's indeed famous, but she shouldn't be listed here, because she's not one of the most famous Poles.--SylwiaS | talk 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  By Piotrus 

message: This list should be for the most famous Poles only. Not for the most famous people with Polish heritage, or all the famous Poles. People of Polish heritage may be very famous, notable etc, but if they weren’t famous as Poles, then why should they go here? We can have various separate lists, and actually I think we should make them. The List of Polish painters should list all famous Polish painters, but on the main list here only the most notable should be listed. Not all of them just because they are Poles. On the other hand there is the List of famous Polish Americans and many people may be listed there. Being a famous Polish American doesn’t make one a famous Pole. We really have enough famous Poles to fill any list, and here we should choose only the most notable for Poles. We can also have people on two or more lists. For example if someone was both a famous writer and a famous painter, they may be on both lists, and additionally if the person was actually Wyspiański or Witkacy they should be listed on the main one too. 
But we should also be reasonable. Being a Polish painter doesn't make one a famous Polish painter, or one of the most notable Polish painters. Well, I used to work for several Polish colour magazines, also for three years I was a chief editor of one of Polish niche magazines. I can be found in internet and it may be sourced. But I'm not a famous Pole, and it would be silly to claim otherwise, so I definitely shouldn't be listed on any of the lists as e.g. a famous journalist. So please, let's not create the longest lists in the world only because many people may be found in internet.--SylwiaS | talk 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  By Sylwia 

message: Lets have a vote on the introductory paragraph, for it seems the most important in describing the definition of Pole. 
Do you prefer the detailed introduction I gave which credits all ancestries (in the cases where there are any): 
Or do you prefer Sylwia's introduction of only citizenship and supposed culture: 
Informationguy
Ok, fine, congratulations on the winner of the democracy! Now, you are symbolically handed the key to the web portal, do as you wish! 
Informationguy
: I am happy to vote on this, but I'm a bit confused at the moment as to what I would be voting on.  Could you please supply the two alternative wordings?  Also, I can follow the discussions a bit better with standardized signatures, so if you could please end each comment with ~~~~, that would make things a bit easier to understand.  Thanks! :)  Elonka 11:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote on Introductory Paragraph 

message: ::If a person has a Polish family then that person has a connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity, you may care about citizenship, while I care more about a family name. There would be Polish-Americans not just Americans, Polish-Americans. Anyway, you got two votes, so you can edit the list the way you want. I wanted a clear list detailing every ancestry, if there is one while you only cared for citizenship and feeling (i.e. "if a person loves being Polish"). Informationguy
::Hey, just because you got the votes doesn't mean I can't write on the talk:page, or does it? Informationguy
A name isn't everything, either way.  There are many Poles in Poland today with German names, because a German ancestor became Polonized.  There are Poles outside Poland with non-Polish names, because such names seemed more practical in those individuals' current circumstances.  logologist|Talk 11:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I wanted clarity and explanation, you only wanted citizenship and feeling 

message: * This should be stated again, for I feel that the same ignorant statements are being repeated over and over again, it's all pro-citizenship vrs. family names. 
This is the statement below: 
* A Polish family name is a much more stronger connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity than just a plain-citizenship. This statement is the logical foundation for the support for listing persons with Polish family names. Informationguy
Do you think that Józef Haller de Hallenburg, Leon Schiller, Władysław Anders, Juliusz Zulauf, Józef Unrug or Aleksander Brückner were less Polish for having German names?  logologist|Talk 13:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or Tadeusz Manteuffel. I disagree with Informationguy, not to mention that his abusive use of headings is making this talk page almost unreadable. We have a vote going above that clearly illustrates that Informationguy is a solo warrior here, and from reading the text above I cannot fail to notice that he fails to cite any sources in support of his personal opinion, which does look like his original definition. Nonetheless if both (?) sides would like to have another vote on the lead paragraph with clear definition of 'who is a Pole', then we could finally end this once and for all. If any side wants more comments, I'd like to remind you of the Wikipedia:Request for comments section for articles.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logical foundation for the support of Polish family names 

message: I'd like to remove few individuals from :Category:Polish nobility, as I think they don't fit the defintion of Poles agreed upon above. Your comments appreciated.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Dassanowscy should be removed. Where Irakli Prince was born?--SylwiaS | talk 17:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, his name was Irakli Danylovich, so I've moved the page there. Valentinian (talk) 23:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Poles?

message: Please, don't remove the red links. Some of the people are much more important than the people who have their articles already. Sometimes we are just working on a topic and we start an article for someone because the person is mentioned in the main article. It doesn't make the person more important than some who still don't have their articles. I know that it might seem that the most important people should already have their articles. But in practice there is much less Polish speaking editors on Wiki than e.g. English or German ones, so we need much more time to make the work. I added some of the deleted names back. I still need to add the rest of them. (You made me work hard, really!). I won't add someone if I clearly see that the person is not a Pole according to the voting above, but I'll add all the rest. They should be here until separate lists for their professions are created. Otherwise we'll lose them all and someone will have to do the work once again in future.--SylwiaS | talk 12:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, there are certain Polish editors who spent a lot of time (and sadly also the time of others!) on articles about German or Prussian issues etc. (and it seems they also fish in some other neighboring ponds).  --Matthead 03:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No offense to you personally Matthead, but the same can be said of other German editors. There are fanatics on both sides. Again, not saying you are, just that there are German ones too. Cheers Philip Gronowski Contribs 03:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red links 

message: I just added a list of names to the list (from Piotr).  I would appreciate it if someone could review my edit to ensure that I categorized everyone appropriately and alphabetized correctly.  Also, some entries could probably use a more descriptive entry (particularly the soccer players and politicians).  I'm not familiar with soccer terms or the political parties so I avoided attempts to elaborate on those listings.  Thank you.  SWAdair | Talk 06:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request review of recent edit

message: If such world-renowned singers as Natalia Kukulska and Kasia Kowalska have been located on this list
Why not add guys from Papa Dance, Doda and Michal Wisniewski?
Sorry for being sarcastic, but please, let us show the world our cream of the crop, not 3rd rate personalities
Tymek 04:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music