Talk:List of automotive superlatives/Archive 4

message: Honorable mention: 10.73 sec - 2004 Caterham 500 - (Note: the Caterham's status as a "production car" is disputed)
Why is their status in anyway disputed? They bought the rights to the Lotus 7 along with the tooling when Lotus stopped production and have been producing the car and developing it ever since. The 7 was a production car when Lotus made it and still is today. --LiamE 10:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Caterham R500's engine does not obey Euro 3 emissions regulations, so it can't be homologated for road use by the factory. - Pc13 17:52, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Britain has (or at least had) somewhat more relaxed regulation for low volume manufacturers so that point is moot. The fact is it was sold in numbers - and sold legally. Whether it meets current regulation is irrelevant. You can't back date regulations to disqualify records. --LiamE 23:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Britain's relaxed "Single Vehicle Approval" registration is the reason the entry is disputed.  It doesn't meet emissions or safety standards and so a good argument can be made that it doesn't belong on the list.  We've compromised on the "disputed" tag. TomTheHand 03:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text:  Euro 3 emissions regulations were introduced in 2001, and the R500 was introduced in 2003. The R400 obeys Euro 3 emissions, but not the R500. Both CSR versions obey Euro 4 regs, though. I'm still unsure if the CSR obeys crash-test regulations, as it has a different chassis than the Super7 (which doesn't). --Pc13 10:36, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I certainly get where you are coming from. However as rule 2 is currently worded it should pass. Rule 2 should maybe read "standard tests and inspection" or similar. The Caterham passes A test but not necessarily a standard test. --LiamE 15:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The problem is that there is significant dispute on the subject.  While I and some others feel that vehicles should pass all emissions and safety regulations in their home market to be included (and rule 2 should be phrased accordingly), some feel that if it is possible to get a vehicle on British roads according to more lenient "Single Vehicle Approval" regulation, it is a production car.  The compromise is allowing them on the list with a "disputed" tag. TomTheHand 16:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: And if more than 20 units are build commercially by people who are selling these cars at a profit to sustain their business, doesn't that make them a production car?--24.87.210.3 06:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  No. That alone would qualify every Dallara F3 car. The R500 is not homologated for the road by the factory. Only the R300 and R400 are. And the R400 existed for two years before being offered as a road car. --Pc13 22:01, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caterham 

message: Can anyone confirm that the S7 has a "production" of 20 cars per year and has met any nation's safety standards (independent of testing a Mustang, since that's considered a different car by both Saleen and Ford and the structural materials and other structural changes are significant)?
: The Saleen S7 is homologated for racing in both the 24 Hours of Le Mans and the FIA GT Championship. In order to do that, those competitions require that a minimum of 25 cars are built as road cars for the period of one year. --Pc13 09:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Saleen S7

message: Its featured in Forbes as having a top speed of 273 mph.
There appears to be various other superlatives on its site.
Has anyone heard of SSC ?
:Not a production car, but I'm eager to see if it becomes one! TomTheHand 13:59, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have heard of the SSC and I have it on the pile of "things to write about" for my newspaper, but so far the car has yet to reach production status, and the top speed has to be verified. --Pc13 14:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that the 273 mph speed is just from wind tunnel testing... maybe that's the speed that the car lifts off.  It runs out of gearing at 260.  Also, the SSC Ultimate Aero model needs 104 octane! TomTheHand 14:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[SSC Aero]] 

message: The Dauer 962 is not illegible for inclusion in the automotive superlatives. #1 - Less than 20 road-going Dauers exist, the total number is 13. #2 - No Dauer was produced from scratch. All existing Dauers were modified from pre-existing Porsche 962 race cars. Pc13 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dauer 962 

message: Is it worthwhile to have a "largest W16" entry on the list?  It is, after all, the ONLY production W16.  We could just as easily have entries for largest W12, W8, VR6, and VR5.  On the other hand, the Veyron's W16 IS larger than the largest V16, and I think the VW W engines are closer to V's than anything else. TomTheHand 15:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest W16 

message: I just want to point out that while I agree the Lexus LS460 will be the first proper 8-speed gearbox, the JDM Nissan Skyline GT350 uses (since 2003) a CVT gearbox with eight pre-programmed gears for manual shift. In my opinion it shouldn't count because it's a CVT. I'm calling this to attention now should someone want to bring up in the future. Pc13 12:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, Pc13.  Fake "gears" on a CVT shouldn't count.  I like CVT technology, but while I understand that it can be unnerving to not hear the engine run through the rev range (just run to the torque peak and stay there), I think this whole recent business with introducing artificial "gears" is just silly.  Features that provide the illusion of performance at the expense of performance just rub me the wrong way. TomTheHand 15:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  8-speed automatic 

message: The first six-speed manual transmission is listed as 1986 Porsche 959, but what about cars with overdrive? If a car had four gears and overdrive on the two highest gears like the Triumph Spitfire (certainly not the first). 4 + 2 = 6. I have also read something about a russian car, possibly the Moskvitch 410/411 having six gears in the 1960s, but since they were SUVs (and may be a contestant for the title "First crossover SUV") it probably just was the standard three speed gearbox equipped with high and low gears. 3 * 2 = 6. // Liftarn
:That's a rough one.  Where does one draw the line?  Is a Jeep Wrangler with a five-speed and low range a "ten speed"? TomTheHand 14:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Argh. Interesting example.  It seems to me that according to the article, the early Davids featured the belt and pulley transmission in question, which I envision as being kind of like bicycle gearing (the vehicle is referred to as a "cyclecar").  The later Davids were more conventional.  Could we just say that the early ones were pre-war and don't count? ;-) TomTheHand 13:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Sounds like we need some categorization.  For example, the first car to have four gears and an overdrive on the two highest gears could receive mention, and the first car to have six gears would be mentioned as well. TomTheHand 18:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transmission 

message: We lack som record beating dimensions. Lowest, highest, widest and narrowest. The lowest is said to be a custom Mini at 24 inches (61 cm), but it's not a production car. Jaguar Mark X was the widest. The BMW X5 is also said to be very wide, but we need numbers. The 1973 Cadillac Eldorado and Lotus Esprit also have been suggested. 1966 Jaguar Mark 10 4.2 was 6'4" wide (in metric?). Micro Car ME-2 at at 88 centimeters, (34.64 inches) perhaps. Except that it's not in production yet, but it would beat the 99 cm (39") Peel P50. The Sparrow P.T.M. is the narrowest currently in production.  // Liftarn
I was bold and added the Concept Centaur GT as lowest. The Probe 15 from Adams Probe Motor Co. is lower at 29", but only two was made. They are kit cars so I don't really think they qualify as production cars, but just to get things started. // Liftarn
:The Ford E-Series seems to take the tallest category, and the Ford F-Series Super Duty is my vote for widest track so far.  The F-Series SD duallie is 95.5 in (2426 mm) wide, too!  The Ford GT40 is legendary as the lowest car, so I put it in.  --SFoskett 21:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dimensions 

message: Worst sales needs some work.  I removed the Mazda B-Series since it easily outsells LOTS of other cars in the US market, and is really popular worldwide.  I like the average sales per year bit used for the Blackwood.
Maybe add a current lowest seller rank for the US market?  My reading of the data for 2004 and 2005 suggests that, excluding cancelled, new, exotic, limited vehicles, the Hummer H1 at 374 in 2005 is worst.  The Infiniti Q45 is compelling at 1,129 for 2005, as is the VW Phaeton at 820.  --SFoskett 21:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sales 

message: this article specifically states that Lancia had a power-folding hardtop in the 1930s.  Automotive News is a respectable source, so I changed the list entry.  Now, which Lancia would this be?  --SFoskett 14:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this site, it appears to be the 1934 Lancia Belna. Five cars were produced by the Pourtout coachbuilding company (Pourtout had a contract to build regular convertible Belnas as well), but it also built four examples of the Peugeot 301 Eclipse. However, the 1934 Peugeot 401 was the first car to feature a power-folding hardtop to be produced in any large capacity (78 cars). Therefore, I suggest the entries for "first coupe-convertible" and "first power-folding hardtop" should be merged, since they both have the same car. As an honorable mention, Ben B. Ellerbeck modified a Hudson in 1922, adding a retractable hardtop, but it was manually operated. --Pc13 19:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retractable hardtop 

message: The article lists 1994 as being the year that regenerative braking was introduced on the Toyota Prius, but the car itself didn't go on sale in Japan until 1997.  This page indicates a concept car that would lead to the Prius was designed in 1994, but it looks like it wouldn't be unveiled for another year.  What is the criteria for listing the year of this accomplishment?  I would think 1997, the year this technology was actually offered to consumers, is the appropriate year to list.
:Looks good.  I'll make the change.  --SFoskett 20:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Year for Toyota Prius/Regenerative Braking 

message: * Under the Passive Restraint section, the BMW 7-series gets a mention for the "first head airbags" in 1998.  Should Volvo's Side Impact Protection System get a mention in this section as the first side impact/side torso airbag (assuming it is the first)?  The Volvo 850 Wikipedia article claims that this system was a "world first."
* The Volvo 850 Wiki article indicates "the 850 held a US patent for its use of rear axle bushings that compress under load so as to create passive rear steering."  This method of steering is substantially different from the active rear steering that the Chevy Silverado and Honda Prelude had (see the four wheel steering article), and receiving a patent would indicate that Volvo had developed a unique new technology.  Adding the 850 to the list.
:As a courtesy for other editors on Wikipedia, please sign your talk page and user talk page posts.  By adding four tildes (~) at the end of your comments, your user name or IP address and the date will be automatically added.
:As for the technologies, I like both but not in place of anything currently there.  Go ahead and make the additions.  --SFoskett 20:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volvo 850 Firsts 

message: The consensus on Ford Mustang in Talk:Sports car looks to me like it is not a sports car, at least in the versions that have sold well.
I suggest that this superlative be dropped from the list,  because the terms "best selling" and "sports car" are in conflict.  Hundreds of cars might have this title, depending on whose definition of "sports car" is used.  David R. Ingham 00:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Best selling sports car"? 

message: I noticed this list jointly credits the Bugatti EB110 3.5 L V12, Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ 0.7 L I4 and Toyota 4A-GE I4. Two probs with that:
#The Dangan ZZ, along with the rest of the Minica range, used an I3 (specifically the Mitsubishi 3G8x engine)
#The 3G83 15v engine was available from March 1990, which seems to put the Mitsubishi a year ahead of its listed rivals.
So, I'm going to edit the page to give MMC sole credit, unless someone can cite a source to trump that. -- DeLarge 22:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh well - trumped it myself. Apparently, the previous version of the Dangan, with a 548 cc engine (the 3G81) was available with a DOHC 15v 3-cylinder (NA & turbo) from 1989. They must have gotten a watchmaker to build that little powerplant... -- DeLarge 08:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First 5-valve engine