Talk:White people/Archive 2

message: Arguably, this phrase is the most common use of "White" in the USA today, and its history says a good deal about the history of the term "White" itself, so I think it makes sense to have information on it. It is not exactly analogous to "Nigger" etc. because it is understood to mean a subset of whites and not the whole group. It is usually used today in contexts where it is humorous and only mildly offensive. --JWB 16:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: White trash appears to be a thoughtful article with lots of good information and analysis related to the concept of "white race" in the USA. I don't think we should be ashamed to link it. It is probably a better written and less racist article than this one.--JWB 09:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, of course it's an insult; for that matter all racial terms are most often used as insults. This does not mean they are non-encyclopedic. I notice you removed a bunch of film and literary references from White trash as unsourced even though they prominently cite the works in question.--JWB 19:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The scope of this page is mostly the interaction of race and socio-economic status. It is not primarily about physical characteristics (anthropology articles like Caucasoid focus on this) or about listing famous white people or historically white countries (a huge number of other articles do this).--JWB 20:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  White Trash (ethnic slur)

message: "Whites are also nearly unique in that they exhibit a variety of hair and eye colours. In parts of the world north of 50° North latitude, sunlight is low and weak enough that people (and white coloured polar animals for that matter) with blond hair, blue eyes, and pale skin have an advantage over those with darker colouration. Benefits include resistance to rickets, possibly frostbite, and a suggested aesthetic appeal"
...higher asthetic appeal for Europeans as a kind of natural selection... Tell me what you think. Does the wind really blow differently when it approaches a blonde haired human? Maybe the polar bears are nicer to the lighterskinned humans.... or maybe when a European passes gas, it really does smell more asthetically pleasing because it's coming out of a pale skinned body? The authori suggests that whites are more asthetically pleasing, because the white people themselves insist that it is, and well, circular reasoning is always asthetically pleasing. 
I just wonder, when someone posts this stuff, and tries to blend it in to the rest of the objective material... when the rest of you guys read it, doesn't somebody question it? I mean does it pop up in your minds "hey, thats not objective, that bias!".  I mean yes, the word "suggested" is put in there, but WHO is doing the suggesting? After all, someone is going to respond that the thing should be left "as is" because well, the word "suggest" is used to "balance" the pov. But heck, people suggest all sorts of things. I'm sure NAZI scientists suggested a certain asthetic appeal, but we need some factual references to this, and I doubt we are going to find a factual scientific basis to promote the idea that blonde-blue-light skin is more asthetically appealing to anyone besides the white people themselves (self promoting), or those in the rest of the world who believe that there is some inherent "goodness" factor for their children/grandchildren to be part-white. 
I am putting a controversal flag on this discussion, as it's apparent that the discussions on this topic has warranted it.
---- Zaph
I'm not going to edit this out since this is flagged as "controversial" and I suspect in any case that it's there to draw people's attention, but really, does this belong in the article:  "...a suggested aesthetic appeal to... um... the blonde haired descendants and their colonized victims, whom they had berated for three centuries that they are more asthetically appealing."  KathL 20:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I will see your garbage and raise you a sarcastic commentary 

message: Original paragraph:
Due to the historic one drop rule in the United States, people with any known admixture of African origin have always been catergorised as black, including mulattos and quadroons, or  octoroons. In Europe, these same people would always be classed as 'mixed race'—a blanket term for all people with any multiple racial heritage. Meanwhile, in Latin American countries like Cuba, the Dominican Republic, or Brazil, they may be considered, and may consider themselves, white.
Comments
1. The statement “people with any known admixture of African origin have always been catergorised as black” is a bit strong. “Always” could refer to our emergence as a species 160 kya. As pointed out in the wikipedia article on “one drop rule,” the notion of invisible Blackness was not widely known nor made statutory until the 20th century.
2. The use of the term “known admixture” is misleading. About one-third of Americans who self-identity as “White” have detectable recent African admixture of which they are unaware but which is common knowledge among molecular anthropologists (see http://backintyme.com/essay040608.htm). No one would consider them “Black.” “Known ancestry,” on the other hand, suggests openly acknowledged Black heritage, which many Americans do see as making you Black.
3. The phrase “including mulattos and quadroons, or octoroons” is unnecessary. Altering it to read “any known African ancestry” would just make it redundant.
4. The three sentences summarizing the pre-20th-century criteria of membership in the U.S. White endogamous group clarify that the notion of invisible blackness is 20th century, and did not “always” exist.
5. The statement “In Europe, these same people would always be classed as 'mixed race'” is incorrect if it refers to people of trivial African ancestry who look utterly European. Such people are simply “White” anywhere but in the United States. If it refers to people of slight African appearance, then their designation as “mixed” or “coloured” applies also to Asia, Africa, Australia, and South America – not just Europe.
: Oh no no no my friend. MUSLIMS are a religion, do not put that in the article. ARABS have much more than a slight African appearance. Yemeni, Egyptians, Southern Iraqis, heck, its pretty big of a chunk. --208.254.174.148 10:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome, Frank! You demonstrate qualities that all wikipedians should emulate -- common sense, courtesy, good grasp of English, and source material to boot! Wow! I have only one criticism. On first reading of "(Hispanics and Muslims are an exception, not being labeled “Black” despite known but invisible African ancestry.)" made me think you were implying that ALL hispanics and Muslims have invisible African ancestry. Then I thought about it some more in context, and it seems less sweeping, but I'm still not sure I agree. Many hispanics in the US, especially those from the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, and Cuba, are very black in appearance, and I highly doubt that they consider themselves non-black, or that anyone else would do so. I know that many black people living in the arab world are so, er, Arabized that they would never think of themselves as anything other than Arab, but I don't think that stops white people from seeing them as black. Again, these are just my opinions and impressions, and I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about them. Thanks and welcome again. ThePedanticPrick 16:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I shall reword the sentence to: "(Hispanics and Muslims are an exception, in that those who look utterly European are not labeled Black even though they may admit to having slight African ancestry.)" The question of self-identity versus genetic admixture is interesting. Puerto Ricans are genetically 50-50 Euro-African. Nevertheless, 90 percent check off "White" on the census.FrankWSweet 17:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Zaph, it would be rude to point out all the ways in which you frequently fail to demonstrate the qualities I mentioned in my welcome of Frank, so I'll just leave it at that. I have complimented you on occasion for your passion and your ability to argue circles around ignorant bigots, so let's move on. I'm not sure what you mean by "where the lines are drawn" and "arab and latino thing..from a white context". Sociology and race studies are not my area of expertise. I have only a middling level of education, and my major was computer science. That's why I mainly contribute spelling and grammar corrections -- as the word "pedantic" in my username implies. Perhaps you could explain further what you're getting at? ThePedanticPrick 18:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Let me count the ways... one 1000, two 1000, three...Awww, well I guess it's fair, since I never give you fanfare either. I'm being silly about that. Did you know that it is the "if...then" statements and "exception" errors in computer programming, those I base my argumentative tactics on? As in "if ancient egyptians are not black due to their widely varied DNA structure which may include some semetic admixture, then black americans are less black due to their northern european admixture"... "unhandled exception, mtDNA does not flow consistently with skin color, hair texture, and facial morphology, racial conclusion of ancient mediterranean cultures inconsistent with observable information."  LOL I'm going to use "exception error" next time I encounter a bigoted arguement. --Zaphnathpaaneah 21:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  pre-20th-century "racial identity" determination 

message: Someone at IP 208.254.174.148 added this section to the article. They copied and pasted here from something that I wrote for an entirely different article. I have no objection to the unattributed copying (this is Wikipedia, after all), but the original is inapplicable to this topic. Rather than reverting it, I have tried to adapt it. Specifically, the three Eurocentric/Afrocentric criteria for deciding whether someone is White or Black (ancestry, appearance, self-identity) operate differently (but compementarily) for White than for Black. To be accepted as White in the Eurocentric/Afrocentric view, one must be of mostly European ancestry AND "look White" AND self-identify as White. To be accepted as Black in the Eurocentric/Afrocentric view, one must be of some African ancestry OR "look Black" OR self-identify as Black. A Venn diagram might help to get the point across. -- FrankWSweet 13:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Epistemological Challenge 

message: My father was a Half Breed American Indian, and my mom is a Mixed-Blood(her ancestry consists of Hispanic(Mexican & Spanish),Arab-Jew, Along with Brittish Isle,Scandanavian & Various American Indian groups, so the question remains: am I White? I mean on nearly every legal Document I put White/American Indian or other(which is a very vague definition,I have dark skin(many people think I am a full-blooded Mexican), blue eyes, and a Middle Eastern Nose, though everyone tries to tell me that I "Look Mexican & Act White" my heritage is mainly American Indian I just want to know if everything else I am is White.... Mutt 02:57, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that this question would get more answers (and more experienced answers) if posted to a discussion group for multiracial individuals. Email me privately at fwsweet@backintyme.com if you would like me to suggest one or two. -- Frank W Sweet 03:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Who is White?

message: The major change made by Gramaic at 22:58, 15 December 2005 was from this:
:Another difficulty with the term is the difference between any given popular definition versus the parameters used for the official government definition in the same locale. For example, some claim that many Americans consider Arabs, Berbers, Iranians, Mizrahi Jews, Kurds, Armenians, Turks, etc. to be non-white. U.S. federal agencies, on the other hand, make no such distinction. The EEOC defines only five "races" (White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, American Indian) and explicitly defines "White as "peoples of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East." (See Employer Information Report EEO-1 and Standard Form 100, Appendix § 4, Race/Ethnic Identification, 1 Empl. Prac. Guide (CCH) § 1881, (1981), 1625.) And Census Bureau classifications are completely voluntary by each reporting individual. Given the explicit EEOC definition and the volutary nature of the census, it seems likely that most U.S. voters would agree that North Africans and Middle Easterners are White. This was not always the case. Until the 1960s, the U.S. restricted immigration and naturalization depending upon whether an immigrant was White, and U.S. courts waffled back and forth many times when considering whether non-Europeans were White. (See United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind.)
to this:
:Another contemporary difficulty of the term is the difference between any given popular definition versus the parameters used for the official government definition in the same locale. In the United States for example, many view Arabs, Berbers, Iranians, Mizrahi Jews, Kurds, Armenians, Turks, etc. as non-white. This is despite the fact that for the purposes of statistics, all the aforementioned are always categorised as white by US government agencies and the U.S. census, and even though some of the people in these groups may look very similar to Southern Europeans.
The first problem with the change is that it replaces the specific citing of EEOC and Census Bureau regulations with the blanket statement, "all the aforementioned are always categorised as white by US government agencies and the U.S. census." The use of "all" and "always" make the statement weak and unpersuasive. Worse, it is factually in error; the Census Bureau does not classify anyone as anything. The Bureau allows each respondent to classify themselves however they wish. A secondary problem is the removal of the conclusion that most U.S. voters are in agreement with EEOC regulations. This conclusion is based on the fact that if most voters disagreed, they would express their desires to Congress, the appropriate Congressional committee would review the regulations, and the Executive Branch would implement Congressional wishes. This sort of adjustment to regulations happens virtually every day and, in fact, was the mechanism whereby the census was changed to allow "check all races that apply." Finally, rest of Gramaic's changes removed objective phrasing regarding appearance and replaced it with subjective phrasing and the obsolete term "caucasoid." -- Frank W Sweet 01:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just like to know, why is the statement regarding Middle Easterners looking like Europeans constantly being removed? Icemountain is constantly removing that sentence, and has stated "that it is not accurate." Actually many Middle Easterners look like Southern Europeans, and minority resemble even the Northern Europeans. Obviously Icemountain does not have experience with Middle Easterners, stating in his summary that this reference about people of Middle Eastern backround is "misleading and not accurate." I'm not trying to start another "Who is White?" discussion, but what exactly is POV about that statement? On the contrary, denying that there aren't any European looking Middle Easterners and North Africans is the one that is highly POV and biased. --Gramaic | Talk 03:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry. This was probably my doing. Until the 14 Dec 2005 round of changes/reversions, it was Icemountain who kept removing it, for the reason that you just said. But in the 14 Dec 2005 round of changes/reversions, I am the one who left it out. The reason that I left it out, as I tried to explain above, had nothing to do with POV. I left it out because it just struck me that whether anyone "looks white" or not depends on who is doing the looking. To me, almost all Middle Easterners look White and I have spent quite a bit of time there (in fact, my wife went to highschool in Teheran). But Icemountain claims that they do not look White to him. Maybe he is sincere. if so, there is no way that he will ever be convinced to the contrary. My father-in-law used to insist that Italians did not look White to him, and I finally gave up trying to argue with him. And so, I left out the business about middle-easterners and north africans looking white because it seemed to be a source of pointless debate that ultimately could not be resolved. If you feel strongly about it, put it back in. I shall back off and let you and Icemountain fight it out. (I would prefer, however, if you could phrase it in some way that leaves wiggle-room for people like my father-in-law (and Icemountain) who honestly see non-Whiteness where others see Whiteness. -- Frank W Sweet 04:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted unexplained changes by Gramaic 

message: Wikipedia has come under scrutiny in recent weeks, and it is about time. While it has always been a reasonably accurate source of information with respect to technical and to a lesser extent hard science topics, it tends to be little better than an opininated news group when it comes to topics in the areas of the humanities, particularly topics relating to history, politics, anthropology, race, religion, etc. Here it tends to reflect the POV of the American academic hard left rather than anything approaching an objective appraisal of reality.
The issue of race in particular tends to be described at Wikipedia from the POV of "Whiteness studies".  This is a relatively recent and controversial "field" created by American academics openly identifying as left wing which presents itself as the critical evaluation of 'the concept of Whiteness', but which in fact tends to boil down to a new religion whose chief article of faith is the idea that the 'white race' is essentially a Nordic conspiracy to disenfranchsie everyone darker than a Frenchman. Unfortunately, topics relating to race in particular tend to be contributed disproportionatley by far left, Anglo-American academics of the 'white lib guilt' variety.
The bottomline is, the concept of 'white' and certainly 'caucasian' is not nearly as 'fluid' or 'arbitrary' as those on the racist left suggest. 'Race' describes essentially those qualities of appearance that can be captured by a statue. Given a gray statue of a human figure, any layman could discern immediately that it was from Europe and not from Sub-Saharan Africa or East Asia, though he might not be able to discern whether it was from ancient Greece or ancient Ireland, even though Greeks can generally be readily distinguished from Irishmen in the flesh.
:Well, isn't that nice! You come barging into a discussion that was bordering on uncivilized already and inject politics into the debate! Thanks a lot! Would you give steroids to a raging bull, too? I'm not going to waste my time explaining to you why thinking critically about the prejudices one is raised with is not exclusively the province of lefty liberals, but perhaps when you start thinking for yourself and doing a little bit of reading, we can talk. Question everything. Toodle-oo ThePedanticPrick 12:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean, let the man speak. He spoke, no one deleted his position. In addition, his speech was nothing more than a desire to censure "left" and "liberal" views. So tell him to let US speak. But look at what you yourself say. Whitness is proud to be white because of all things... genetics??? What other group of people do YOU know of that stress some genetic "reason" to be who they are? In addition, how can whiteness be inclusive, if one of the things that gives it pride is a genetic makeup? the others who are inclusive further diversify the genetic pool making "genetics" less and less of a clear distinction! Arabs, East Indians, Latinos, (people who are considered to be white in some fashion or another) are radically different from Germans. And you think this is not exclusive, well explain these comments by white judges and politicians who based "whiteness" on concepts of "purity" and "virtue", with virtue being nothing more than a "fair contenance" and a "radiant comlpexion"!  Europeans did not categorize themselves as white when they first settled in Virginia. Now if you do not want to address the history of how whiteness was invented and where and why it "grew" to include this group or that group, thats going to be a problem. This article is about white people, so their history and origins should be clearly laid out, good and bad. We aren't going to make assumptions, and omit information based on a belief in bygone conclusions. And yea the man spoke, but he didn't show any kind of serious thinking. He wants anything he doesnt like to be thrown into the trash. He may be "white" but that does not make him the final expert on all things white. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Your post is terribly incoherent.  Where does this stuff about Rome conquering Britain come from?  DNA analysis doesn't reveal melanin levels, and what do you mean by "Europe proper"?  Don't deviate from the discussion. --Jugbo 23:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Be wary of anthropological revisionist politics at Wikipedia

message: People are talking past each other on this article.  I believe there is a place for two articles: 1) content that includes the whiteness studies concepts and 2) another that isn't negative and summarizes White people in an article that covers Etymology, Culture, Population, Languages, History, Countries, Famous Whites and accomplishments (and failures).  I'd suggest the White people article be based on the same format used for other entho-religious groupings, (see a model format at Jew).  
A basis for the article should be uncontroversial and what is generally accepted globally: "A common element to the various definitions of "White" today, is that the term refers to a person of European descent. Also generally associated with white people are European culture, Christianity (whether as a religion or part of their cultural heritage) and Western Civilization."  Now, OF COURSE there are exceptions, but they should not come to rule the content of the article at the expense of providing general, encyclopedic and useful information to readers about White people-- past, present and future.  We do exist.    Icemountain 19:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As a historian, I agree with Icemountain that the article's historical content now focusses too much on the changing definitions of "White," epecially in the U.S. (which is the field that I happen to know about). If you interpret "White" to denote Western (European) civilization and its cultural values, then the article could probably benefit from shedding more light on this aspect of Whiteness. The European (Western) conquest of the virtually the entire planet about half a millennium ago is astounding. In 1421, for example, China's military technology was far in advance of Europe's and they could have walked over the place, had they chosen to do so. When, where, how, and why Western (European) culture came to dominate the globe is a story worth telling. I cannot do it because I know little about it. But I would be more than happy to lend a hand to Icemountain or anyone else who wants to address this (after checking into other Wikipedia articles to make sure we do not neddlessly duplicate what others have already written). FWIW, my personal groundrules for history-writing are explained on my Wikipedia home page. -- Frank W Sweet 16:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Nicely done, zaph. Would that all your arguments were this concise, structured, and dispassionate. ThePedanticPrick 21:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well Pedantic - imagine that someone responds later that White people are a Christian ethnic group because of some research done by some goofball, and the term "Christian" is more of a racial term than a religious one. Then you will see passion, chaos, and confusion. :) Lets see what happens.--68.60.55.162 22:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd expect nothing less, dude, but can we point and laugh, too? ThePedanticPrick 22:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Should a new article be created, and this content be merged or moved to Whiteness Studies?

message: See what happens when my commitment to REAL neutrality is addressed. White people is a disupted page, finally. The bias on here finally could be viewed when you take all the "variables" out and compare constants. I'm still not going to interfere for the time being, I want to see how you wonderful people resolve this conflict. --208.254.174.148 02:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Oh how the tables have turned

message: In a revision as of 21:45, 27 December 2005, contributor "88.111.78.218" removed Keanu Reeves as an example of an American seen by most as White, despite having a part-Chinese father. Why was this example removed? -- Frank W Sweet 22:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to Keanu Reeves?