Talk:Baklava/Archive 1

message: Surely "American-style" is a mistake? Palmiro | Talk 23:28, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo caption 

message: Inspired somewhat by the history of this article, I have made some remarks on Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions which people here might have views on. Palmiro | Talk 17:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming conventions 

message: The current history section traces baklava to the Assyrians and then the Greeks.  What is the source for this?  In Alan Davidson's 'Oxford Companion to Food', Charles Perry (called "the leading authority on early Arabic cookery") has a quite different story in the 'baklava' and 'filo' articles.  He says that filo (yufka) is 'clearly of Turkish origin' and gives no indication that it existed before Ottoman times in Greece, Armenia, etc.  Does anyone have better sources?  (Note that cookbooks are usually 'terrible' sources for history, often repeating baseless legends....) --Macrakis 22:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NOTE: no such user; actually posted at 22:03, 14 May 2006 UTC by 86.139.119.212 (talk • contribs)  ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: NOTE: no such user; actually posted at 20:36, 14 May 2006 UTC by 86.139.119.212 (talk • contribs)  ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: "Filo is the Greek name for a dough of many paper-thin layers separated by films of butter...Although known to Europeans and North Americans by a Greek name, the dough is clearly of Turkish origin. The medieval nomad Turks had an obsessive interest in making layered bread, possibly in emulation of the thick oven breads of city people. As early as the 11th century, a dictionary of Turkish dialects (Diwan Lughat al-Turk) recorded pleated/folded bread as one meaning of the word yuvgha, which is related to the word (yufka) which means a single sheet of file in modern Turkish. This love of layering continues among the Turks of Central Asia...The idea of making the sheets paper thins is a later development.The Azerbaijanis make the usual sort of baklava with 50 or so layers of filo, but they also make a...pastry called Baki pakhlavasi (Baku-style baklava) using ordinary noodle paste instead of filo...This may represent the earliest form of baklava, resulting form the Turkish nomads adapting their concept of layered bread--developed in the absence of ovens...If this is so, baklava actually pre-dated filo, and the paper-thin pastry we know today was probably an innovation of the Ottoman sultan's kitchens at Topkapi palace in Istanbul. There is an established connection between the Topkapi kitchens and baklava; on the 15th of Ramadan every year, the Janissary troops stationed in Istanbul used to march to the palace, where every regiment was presented with two trays of baklava. They would...march back to their barracks in what was known as the Baklava Procession."
---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 299) 
http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#baklava
Its a very reliable source, I think it should be included.
JohnStevens5
: NOTE: no such user; actually posted at 17:56, 14 May 2006 UTC by 86.139.119.212 (talk • contribs) 
I am a user, Johnstevens5 what seems to be the problem?
:: My apologies, User:Johnstevens5, but the above posting with the supposed signature "JohnStevens5" was not made by a logged-in user called "Johnstevens5", but rather by an anonymous editor at IP address 86.139.119.212. Furthermore, another posting with a supposed signature of "AlpEren" was made from the same IP address. When this happens in a short time, especially during a controversy, it usually signifies naive editors who are trying to pose as multiple people and don't realize that we can see exactly who did edit a page. Two other problems support this less-friendly interepretation:
::# The editor(s) of each of three similar edits did not know how to create a link for a user, instead linking the supposed usernames to non-existent Wikipedia articles "JohnStevens5" and "AlpEren".
::# The supposed username "JohnStevens5" is not the same as your username, "Johnstevens5" (note the difference in case, which is significant in Wikipedia).
:: If you made these edits, I apologize for my brusqueness. However, I recommend you read some of the links I've provided on your talk page to avoid similar future problems, and always remember to check that you are logged in before you edit so that your edits are properly credited to you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official Objective Source for Baklava, Filo pastry and its origins 

message: Reading the current "History" section of the article, I thought the prose looked suspiciously like a copy-and-paste operation. Some quick Google searches show that the entire section is pulled practically verbatim from several sources:
* properly quoted Food Timeline citation of Oxford Companion to Food (our 1st section is lifted directly)
* "The History of Baklava", Food History (our section "The perfection" is nearly verbatim copy of 2 sections of this work)
* cached copy of "Baklava - RecipeFacts", RecipeLand.com ("Other theories" draws substantial unquoted material from its intro paragraph)
This is plagiarism. When we write Wikipedia articles, we are required to use the sourced information to write in our own words, just like for any other essay, paper, or publication. Even a citation of the work, as has been provided for Oxford Companion, is not an excuse to plagiarize. (Verbatim excerpts are required to be quoted and properly cited, and must not be used as the essential text, only as an illustration.) I ask the regular editors of this article to do some quick writing to avoid having this article tagged with a  notice. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright violations 

message: the image with "the different types of baklava" is hidding the word "best". i dont know how to fix this, so if anybody else knows, pls do it.--Greece666 03:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  image 

message: since when turks knew baklava?? it was inrodused after the arab invasion to asia. mangolia where the turks or the ottoman presented. arabs roled the turks for more than 10 centures, and it was before the invasion of costantinapole or istanbul. as far as i know, assyria is the home land of arabs and we can say now the arabs knew it first. baklava widly known to turks and the rest of europe after the expansion of islam. same as other arabic food such as: mosaka'a(means:cooled in arabic), loqama(bit or swollow), halwa(means sweet in arabic), kanafa, tahene, etc. contains arabic meaning and not turkish or greek. as much as it has meaning in arabic language, then baklava arabic for sure.
b.t.w all turkish and greek food is actuily :bayn nahrayn (mesopotamia) arabic food.
:No, no, no. Baklava is either Turkish or Greek in origin. If it was Arabic in origin, then why is baklava and some of the other other dishes/items you named not an integral part of the cuisines of the Arabian Peninsula countries (the supposed native land of early Arabs)?  And Arabs are NOT the originators of everything that comes from the Middle East.  Let's lose the ethnocentric attitude, its offensive and instigative. --Inahet 04:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those sources are okay, but they mention nothing about Arabs being the creators of baklava. You could use those sources to justify the claim that Turkish cuisine has an Arab influence, but you cannot prove with these sources that baklava is of Arab origin. --Inahet 01:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  since when??? 

message: I have tried adding a link to my chocolate baklava recipe page but have had it removed as "spam"? I think that the page adds value, is original, and has attracted local attention where it has been sold at a number of gatherings and garnered praise. I am fine if folks don't want it added, but I don't see how it is less of a contribution than the other recipe links. No problem either way, but thought I'd ask!  --Dilip
:Wikipedia isn't the place for pointers to original recipes, no matter how good they are. --Macrakis 23:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding link for chocolate baklava 

message: Why these pathetic sematics? It was Assyrian, it was brought to Constantinople by Greek sailors, and then appropriated by the Turks. No Greek will claim the food is of pure Greek origin, it is of Assyrian origin, this is the difference between Turks and Greeks, we do not ignore History.
Many groups claim Baklava as their own. However, a check of the history of baklava yields surprising results. It is widely believed that it is of Assyrian origin.
Around approximately the 8th century B.C., Assyrians baked thin layers of dough with nuts, poured honey over it, and enjoyed this sumptuous treat. Baklava was baked only on special occasions, usually by the rich who could afford such a luxury.
The history of Baklava changed with the history of the land. The Near and Middle East saw many civilizations come and go. Baklava and the recipe had spread to the Near East, Armenia, and Turkey. With the advent of the Grecian Empire, it spread westward to Greece. Phyllo dough is named after the greek word for "leaf", being "as thin as a leaf". The thickness (or for that matter, the thinness) of Phyllo gives baklava is delicious crispy taste.
 
So, when you eat a piece of baklava, you may want to think of Greece. However, the history of baklava reveals it came from farther East... Even so, various countries offer tasty variations and have loyal followings. The history of Baklava - as colorful as the History of the lands of the Mediterranean and the Middle East -- unsigned comment by User:86.137.172.220
i agree but don't you agree that costantinapole was occupied by assyrians before greeks and turks?
-- Unsigned comment by User:217.35.116.227
The "Assyrian theory" keeps getting added to the article, but no one yet has provided solid sources for it. Please find good sources, and then we can add the theory to the article. --Macrakis 19:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BAKLAVA IS ASSYRIAN IN ORIGIN! 

message: I can see why the name points to it, but I think such a claim needs atleast a source or citation of somesort.
"Though it has been claimed by many peoples, the best evidence is that, despite its Arabic-seeming name, it is of Turkish origin."
Those kinds of statements will need something to back it up, and I'm not seeing a source for it.
--MercZ 04:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the following two paragraphs. --Macrakis 13:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim to Baklava as Turkish Origin 

message: A word doesnt become arabic cause somebody says that it is arabic seeming or sounds like arabic? "Bakla" is the same in Turkish and arabic but arabic dictionaries refute the link between bakla and baklava. I am sorry for that. 
thats the funniest thing i've ever heared. (Arabic-seeming name, it is of Turkish origin).
how come? then why not coffee,sugar and cotton are arabic-seeming name with turkish origin?
why don't we talk about what was turkey before the arab alliance with the mangolians. arabs shared thier culture, food, spices, and evrything they knew to the ottoman. i could say the ottoman empire was built thanks to the arabs. come on everybody know that
p.s Mesopotamia is the home of the semetics (Arabs, Hebrew) including all mesopotamian people.
Alan 17:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does he say? —Khoikhoi 18:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't looked into it, I found this source through this web site with excerpts from the book. --Inahet 18:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read the article in Davidson, and it points to the Perry article which is cited here. The random Web pages which keep getting referenced here (or plagiarized) don't have any scholarly foundation at all as far as I can tell. --Macrakis 16:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surely Mesopotamian but not Turkish or Greek (??? who says that on which basis)

message: Etymology:(Arabic: بقلاوة: Baqlawa): Legume or Nut.  
From Arabic: (بقلة: Baqla ) (بقلاوة : Baqlawa):  single bean' '. And its plural is: (بقول : Boqoul), (بقوليات: Boqouliyat). 
The rule in Semitic languages of defining singular nouns is by Adding an (A) letter after the noun. Such example are shown below:
:*plural: (بقلاو: Baqlaw: legume) and its singular (بقلاوة: Baqlawa)
:*Plural: (حلاو: Halaw: Sweet or honey) and its singular (Halawa or Halwa)
Baklava is also known in Mesopotamia, as well as many other Mesopotamian walnut or legume dishes.
The word's Etymology and utterance of baklava are Arabic and derived from ancient Semitic languages of Mesopotamia including Ancient Aramaic, Akkadian in Assyria, Nabatean, Phoenician, etc.
The name Baklava is actually spelled and pronounced as Baqlawa. During the expansion of Islam in Persia, India and Anatolia, Arabic language expanded as well as their culture. There were some difficulties for Persian, Turk and some Indian tongues of pronouncing several Arabic alphabets, such as the arabic letter (و:W). It is replaced by ( ب:  V in Persian language) and ( ف as V in Ottoman language). Both languages (Persian and Ottoman) replaced the original letter in order to use arabic Alphabets. Thus the Arabic name (Baqlawa) sounds more accurate than English (Baklava).  
A long section was recently added to the article claiming that baqlawa is related to b-q-l, an Arabic root meaning 'sprout', 'greens', and 'bean'.  This is certainly possible, but no references were given to support it.  A long list of dictionaries given as 'references' doesn't help.  And the rules of Arabic morphology aren't relevant here.  Can we find a reputable source for the ancient Mesopotamian source of baklava?  Can we find a reputable etymology connecting it to baqlah?  Until we do, we should stick to the published sources we do have. --Macrakis 21:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I heard that Baklava is a legal trademark of Turkey, like Feta cheese is of Greece. If that's true then the argument goes moot. Miskin 21:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I didn't notice this comment before.  I am not sure if you're referring to something in particular; more  good information would certainly be a good thing.  There are limits to the scope of WP, though; in particular, recipes belong in the Wiki cookbook, not here (see WP:NOT). --Macrakis 18:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic word /baqlah/ and /baqlaawa/