Talk:Geisha/Archive 1

message: Why is this Setsuka from Soul Calibur III character mentioned?  Her connections to geisha seem very slim, judging from that picture.  She's wearing her obi in the front. If you click on the characters page, it says "She's styled as a mix between the Queen of Hearts and courtesans known as oiran." 
Anyone object to this section being removed? MightyAtom 05:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I moved this section to the article on oiran, where it is better suited. MightyAtom 05:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geisha in popular culture?

message: The term "mizuage" in the article redirects back to this article.  I am removing the reference to eliminate a link cycle.  Matthew Plough 04:55, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: link cycle

message: I think we should add a section on western misconceptions. Item #1, Geisha aren't prostitutes; yûjo are prostitutes. Item #2, Ge - i - sha not gissha. Any other ideas for the section? --Carl 13:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  add a section on western misconceptions? 

message: First of all, the photo for this article should show geisha, not maiko. And they don't look like real maiko either. They are likely tourists who underwent a maiko makeover. Can the photographer confirm that they are real? Real maiko would know how to pose well while dressed in kimono. They do not pose like that, with the sleeves ruffled, umbrella held unaesthetically, etc.
:I don't see why.  A maiko is a type of geisha, after all. These maiko look authentic enough to me; if they don't look practiced enough to you maybe they're just new. Exploding Boy 22:17, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
No, they are not authentic. Confirmed by this page:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/russellc/13168902/
Photojpn.org 15:11, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sufficient confirmation for me.  The person isn't an expert, obviously has no inside information, and doesn't speak Japanese by the looks of it.  Either way, it's still basically irrelevant.  Exploding Boy 20:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
OK, if you like this picture so much, I won't replace it. Photojpn.org 10:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Hey, it's not that I'm in love with the photo...  Please, feel free to add more pics and/or replace it with a better one.  Exploding Boy
Why replace it if they look "authentic enough" to you, you still think they are real (I don't care to spend more time to try and convince you that they are not real), and "it's basically irrelevant?" I was all but ready to replace it and add more images (selected from among my hundreds of geisha images), but your reaction has really irked me. "Geisha" has been crossed off my list of "Wiki images to be replaced." Someone else can do it. Photojpn.org 03:35, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Read my notes again please. What you call "pussyfooting" was consensus-building. You yourself said this thing is run by consensus (which was not reached). All your responses were negative. Very ironic since you were the first to ask the same question right on this page. Throwing a hissy fit? Not me. Photojpn.org 02:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Another thing on the photo bit.  Why is it so far down the page?  Seems there should be a nice photo right up at the top.  If possible, it would be great to have a contrasting photo of a geisha and a maiko as well, to see the different styles. MightyAtom 04:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo

message: Part of this article appears to be copied from this page. The makeup section in particular. Rmhermen 23:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copied?

message: A BBC2 documentary broadcasted yesterday noted two additional facts about maiko/geisha, though i cannot verify them. The senior geisha house keeper and trainer, excuse my expressions, revealed to a maiko the following purpose of the white make-up: in older days it would reflect the scarce candle-light in order to show her face better, and thus showing the geisha's beauty clearer. Another note was that the 2 V's in the neck were a sexual reference, but to what was not explained. Still all this could be a local or personal explaination, making me hesitate to add this information. 83.85.83.86 11:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As to the first, I can't verify it, but if it's not true it's a lovely story.  As to the second, the nape of the neck is considered sexy.  The 2 or 3 unwhitened portions left in that area are supposed to heighten the effect.  Exploding Boy 16:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I'll try to verify the first, as soon as i can make time for it.  W.ouwehand 20:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: I put in the contradiction template, because of the (seemingly) contradictory mentionings of the term used in Kyoto (geiko, but only maiko (both in first paragraph)). --Marcoscramer 21:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: This article is extremely skimpy on the sources cited.  It could use  sprinkled liberally throughout, and maybe even a tag at the top, but a note asking nicely on the talk page is less abrupt.  So, could some footnotes be put in, please? - brenneman{L}  01:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I was going to add one after the last rewrite but didn't get around to it.  Will soon.  Exploding Boy 01:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources cited 

message: I don't understand what's meant by ""Geisha," is the most familiar term to English speakers..."
:What that means is that another term, geiko (which comes from the Kyoto dialect), is also used to mean the same thing, but that the term geisha (from the Tokyo dialect, and therefore used in many other areas of Japan as well, excepting Kyoto and possibly other locations in the Kansai region in this case) is more familiar to Western English-speakers. Which is true (I can verify that much; I'm a native English speaker, and one with an interest in Japan at that, and had never known of the term geiko until today. Memoirs of a Geisha is about a Kyoto geiko, but does not use the Kyoto dialect term in the title, you'll notice, probably for this reason, as the book is actually a romance novel written by a native English-speaker, Arthur Gdlden, not actual memoirs). Runa27 23:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't get it, it is inaccurate, unverified and obviously causes people confusion so I have re-jiggered it. - Bennyboyz3000 06:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording 

message: I think this page still needs a lot of work - regarding Memoirs of a Geisha...to not dissect the book / film is like ignoring the elephant in the room. Right now all we have is basically "Both novel and film have prepetuated a flawed and glorified image of the life of a geisha." and then we say nothing to back that up or delve deeper into the issues surrounding them...69.142.158.49 09:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memoirs 

message: In the article's last sentence, the novel "Memoirs of a Geisha" is mentioned as prepetuating "a flawed and glorified life of the life of a geisha". Could the writer or someone else please give reasons for this? As it stands now, it's nothing more than an opinion, and I don't think that's very helpful. 80.228.134.58 19:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memoirs of a Geisha 

message: I removed the sentence "This is because their virginity would be sold to the highest bidder, the person who would pay the most to sleep with them." because this is a very disputed issue, and should not be presented as fact. MightyAtom 02:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mizuage

message: Any reference for this:
"In modern Japan, geisha and maiko are now a rare sight outside Kyoto. In the 1920s there were over 80,000 geisha in Japan, but today there are far fewer - a commonly accepted estimate is 10,000. However, visitors to Kyoto's Gion district are likely to catch a glimpse of a maiko on her way to or from an appointment."
I have heard the number of operationg Geisha in Kyoto to be around 100 or so.  Also, the last sentence is patently untrue!  All the time I have spent in Gion in Kyoto, and I have NEVER seen a Geisha on her rounds.MightyAtom 12:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really?  Last time I was in Kyoto I stayed for about 4 days and saw at least 10 geisha on the streets in Gion and Pontocho.  Exploding Boy 19:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ACTUAL geisha or tourists dressed up as geisha?  I've seen lots of tourists who dress up as geisha and walk around posing for pictures, but never a real geisha/maiko out on her rounds.  Was just there for 3 days last week end, wandering around Gion at dusk.  MightyAtom 21:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I know that street well. Just where I was walking around last weekend, but nary a geisha in sight...sigh...maybe I am just unlucky.MightyAtom 04:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I went to a talk by the author of a book on geisha last weekend, and he laughed when I told him wikipedia says there are around 10,000 active geisha. He said the number was probably around 200 in all of Japan.  However, this is original research, so I can't really post it.  However, the 10,000 number is wildly inaccurate. MightyAtom 06:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not 200; there are 80-110 in Gion Kobu alone, so I seriously doubt that the other hanamachi can survive with about five to ten geisha apiece. I'm guessing this faulty information came from this page, since it was one of the first to pop up under a google search of "geisha number." This site says that the number is under 1,000, and they that the number is under 200. Seems like there's some serious discrepancy. I hesitate to trust anything but kenban records.
Ha!  That http://www.japancorner.com site says that Memoirs of a Geisha is a true story, so that disqualifies that as any sort of reference!  The under-200 number comes from Peter MacIntosh, who is pretty much THE authority on Kyoto geisha. He is married to a former Tayū, and knows the world inside and out.  
http://www.petermacintosh.com/
He is a very trustworthy resource, but since it was original research, I can't post it...
But! The number is definitely wrong. MightyAtom 14:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of modern Geisha?

message: This section seems a little inadaquate.  Most of it is generalized information about the West's preoccupation with Geisha.  Shouldn't their be something about the Geishas' presence in or influence on Japanese popular culture?  I'd really like to know about this.  Would someone who's knowledgable about this consider adding to the article?
:I agree that this section needs to be re-vamped.  However, as to the influence of Geisha in Japanese popular culture, it is almost nil.  In Japan, they aren't really important, although most Japanese are aware of the West's fascination with geisha.  You will rarely see geisha in books, movies, manga, etc...Unfortunately, I don't have any sources to support this, just daily life.  And that would be original research, so...MightyAtom 08:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't true. In most Japanese TV dramas staged in Kyoto, there is a scene involving an (improperly dressed) maiko. In addition, antique geisha hairpins are a popular item in Harajuku boutiques. --Iriseyes 23:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About "Geisha in popular culture" section 

message: Geisha are, first and foremost, dancers and musicians, but this article completely lacks a section on it. Can someone rectify this? In addition, why was the section on specialization changed? Geisha do not specialize depending on their hanamachi, this information is mind-bogglingly incorrect. Quite frankly, ugly geisha do not dance. --Iriseyes 19:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have references, please update the article, but be sure to reference the updates.  Anything coming from your personal knowledge would count as original research, which is against wikipedia guidelines.  Also, try to be aware of the language used.  Instead of "ugly geisha do not dance," something like "physical attractiveness plays a role in selecting a geisha's specialty."  MightyAtom 01:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I added one of the books I got the information from as a reference; I see you let it live now. --Iriseyes 13:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dancing 

message: I sent out image use requests to Immortal Geisha and Rising Sun Imports. Immortal Geisha has, of course, a great collection of authentic geisha images, and Rising Sun has a fantastic image of a maiko's obi in a teahouse; this picture has got to be included. --Iriseyes 19:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: I looked  <--- here at the population of Japan in 1920. According to the info posted there and the numbers we have here, about 1/1000 women in Japan at that time was a geisha. That is SO innacurate. I don't know what the correct number is but I changed the current quote. There are certainly not 10,000 geisha in japan right now. --Iriseyes 18:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Modern Geisha 

message: The introduction to this article reads much like it would if the subject were ballerinas. I am aware of the opposition here to calling geisha "prostitutes," but surely they are something other than "entertainers" and "dancers" and so on as described. For example a ballerina is a dancer who performs on stage for an audience in a legitimate theatre, a geisha pours drinks and attends to a man or men in private rooms, and is represented by a Oka-san, who frankly functions much like a madam. To more accurately reflect the gender dymanic of the geisha/client relationship I am changing the phrasing in the intro to "male clients" as opposed to "clients" because I find precious little indication that geisha are hired by women to any significant degree. 203.216.99.181 10:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although most clients are male, there is nothing prohibiting women from becoming clients.  I have personally been to a party with geisha were the clients were both men and women.  It isn't unusual for offices to host a geisha party for a special occasion, and of course staff of all genders are invited. MightyAtom 11:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, women can hire them as well - it's more that they don't always find an interest. John Smith's 11:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have a problem with stating "predominantly male clients," although I don't really see the necessity of it. Yes, female clients of Geisha are probably rare, and when women attend it is most likely as part of a large group.  MightyAtom 03:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Clients" vs "Male Clients" in introduction

message: I was somewhat surprised that when reading the discussion that the only misconception of Geisha mentioned is that they are prostitutes.  Another misconception that I have heard OFTEN is that Geisha were assassins or martial artists.  At first I figured this just said something about the idiots I hang out with, but have noticed this misconception even in non-serious mass media, especially games with a Japanese theme.  (i.e. Shogun Total War)  Should this misconception be dispelled in the article and/or mentioned in "Geisha in Popular culture?" 69.138.58.211 16:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was gonna call bullshit on this, until just last night I was watching a movie where a geisha walked by and, low and behold, she whipped the kanzashi from out of her hair and used them as throwing knives.  And this was in a Japanese film!  It got me thinking...Kitano Takeshi's Zatoichi also has the "Geisha as assasin" motif, so maybe it isn't all that rare.  Although, usually it is a case of assassins using the geisha costume as a disquise, rather than actual geisha being assassins.  Might just be worth addressing. MightyAtom 02:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, probably a more of a trope than a misconception.  I know there are more instances of this.  Wolverine does battle with warriors disguised geisha in more than a few comics.  Usually, just like in the Japanese flick I watched, the hair-pieces conceal knives and such.  BUT...unless there is a reference, it is all Original Research soooo....MightyAtom 04:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't be original research to put a category in the "Popular Culture" section of films showing people dressed as Geisha acting as assassins, but I'm not sure it is a good idea unless we can link it into the article somehow, and that requires non-original research onto this Trope/Myth.  Anyone think it is worthwhile to put it in there without an explanation in the article? LittleBrother 07:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would not be appropriate just on the fact Shogun Total War had them like that. If it was a general misconception, fair enough. But one PC game isn't nearly enough. John Smith's 12:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Western Misconceptions

message: In the text, we read "Although minarai attend ozashiki, they do not participate at an advanced level..."
It is not explained anywhere in the text before that point what ozashiki means (neither a link is provided). Could somebody please elaborate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.247.240.173 (talk) 20:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK!  Provided a translation of ozashiki! MightyAtom 00:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of ozashiki? 

message: This article seems to focus mainly on Geisha as private entertainers, and doesn't mention their public performance concerts like the Miyako Odori.  I think there are a few other performances, like the Azuma Odori.  Anyone else know of others? This is where most people get the chance to see Geisha performing their arts, without having to pay the massive fees for an ozashiki.   Also, in order to promote a fading business, I know of several places that offer Geisha tours, where tourists can attend an ozashiki and wander around Gion learning about Geisha.
It seems like this should be added in.  Maybe under Modern Geisha?  MightyAtom 01:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this is a pretty important feature of the modern geisha. I know that Pontocho does a biannual dance, and every time it is different, unlike the miyako odori, which is always the same. Pontocho's superior ties to kabuki also shows up in their dance, when they perform some kabuki classics. (!) But honestly, the best way to see geiko and maiko in Kyoto right now is to stake out the ichiriki. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iriseyes (talk • contribs) 03:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Miyako Odori? Geisha tours?

message: Can you confirm whether that photo is of a shikomi, because she appears to be working at a ryotei (restaurant). See the hose? Claw789 00:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Simply because of her age, I'm guessing she's a shikomi. All buildings must be hosed down, ryotei and okiya both. Also, that could be an inn that hosts geiko, as some do. Since it's not definate (you're right) I will rephrase the caption, but since it's very likely that that's her role, I'll leave shikomi in there. --Iriseyes 02:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: My written Japanese is not nearly good enough. John Smith's 09:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shikomi photo 

message: The image captioned "A young girl, most likely a shikomi, hoses down the front of a traditional building in Gion" is of such poor quality that, IMO, it should be removed even if it cannot be replaced. Nat 15:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor-quality image 

message: However, geisha were able to purchase a permit allowing them to sell sex before prostitution was outlawed in Japan.
There was a time when the selling of sex and the selling of art were regulated affairs. Leslie Downer writes that some women held permits for both, but Liza Dalby records her okaasan saying this "double registration" was illegal, apparently a practice more common in the "lower" geisha districts. Claw789 07:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, Liza Dalby says a lot of things - such as that she was a geiko when she was nothing of the sort. Certainly I've never seen her deny it. John Smith's 13:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: She never said she was a geiko in her book, simply that she worked for a year wearing geiko kimono because of her age. I'm not sure what the problem is...you would prefer her to make her debut (which she never had) as 27-year-old maiko? --Iriseyes 17:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, onsen geisha are pretty much prositutes. My father was propositioned by a couple in Atami. --Iriseyes 01:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, onsen geisha (such as Sayo Masuda) are prostitutes. The may wear geisha kimono, but they sell sex, not art. This is why Kyoto geisha prefer to call themselves geiko and maiko, so as not to be confused with onsen geisha. Geisha never sold sex, not even their virginity. Memoirs of a Geisha was a very inaccurte movie, right down to the hair and costumes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geishainkyoto (talk • contribs) 02:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Permits 

message: are traditional, female Japanese entertainers, whose skills include performing various Japanese arts, such as bukakke, chikan (public groping), gokkun (swallowing sperm), hentai (depravation), shinju (breast bondage) and plain fornication. They also engage their clients with light masturbation.
Ummmm... yeah. I won't remove it, but just wanted to point out that the article opens with that.... 71.120.201.39 17:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  i lol'd 

message: The Japanese WP has some interesting things to say about geisha that partly contradict the no-prostitution-no-sirree line here:
: 芸妓はあくまでも芸を売って座の取持ちを行うのがその勤めである。しかし、江戸時代以来、芸妓も遊女と同様、前借金を抱えた年季奉公であり、過去の花街は人身売買や売春の温床となっていた。誰でも構わず身を売ることは「不見転（みずてん）」として戒められたが、第二次世界大戦後までこうした不見転はほぼどこの土地でも見られ、置屋も積極的にこれを勧めることが多かった。
Rough translation: "The duty of a geigi is definitely to entertain by art.  However, starting in the Edo period, both geigi and prostitutes were sold into apprenticeships for an advance loan, and former hanamachi became hotbeds of slavery and prostitution.  Selling the body to anybody was known as mizuten and cautioned against, but after WW2 mizuten could be found in practically all districts, and many okiya proactively encouraged the practice." Jpatokal 02:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We'd need citations, otherwise it might be difficult to reference subsequently. John Smith's 09:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Please remember that the line between geisha and the water trade has always been slightly blurry. Geisha were sold into their okiya, or course, and mizuage did happen, but that's been abolished for over 50 years now. --Iriseyes 15:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese WP on geisha 

message: While I'm not an expert, and certainly understand that Geisha were/are not the same as Western "prostitutes", I believe the "Geisha and Prostitution" section is biased and misleading. It sounds like spin to me.
The discussion here, and the articles own links make it clear that Geisha and sexual favors have a long, complicated relationship. That relationship should be expressed more honestly and accurately in the article, which seems to deny any signifcant pattern of sexual activity between Geisha and their clients. It's evident to me, from the articles links and discussion here, that one exists, tangled though it may be. The situation should be more accurately described if the article is to be considered truthful and unbiased.
The idea that, "he paid me for companionship; I chose to have sex with him" is one that could be espoused by any 'companion' on the prostitute-spectrum, from straight-up hooker to 'escort' to Geisha. It doesn't make it true.
The interaction between a Geisha and a client - sexual or otherwise - is different from the interaction between a Geisha and her non-client aquaintances. To deny the role of money in that dichotomy is dishonest and innaccurate.
Blcfilm 09:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reeks of spin 

message: I swapped two pictures over because I thought it was wrong to lead the article with two girls posing as geiko - the featured article I moved up is much better. However, I was wondering if anyone had a suggestion for a new caption that would be more appropriate for the new lead picture? John Smith's 12:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved pictures

message: The Terms section opens with
"Geisha," pronounced /ˈgeɪ ʃa/, is a proper noun.
a) No, it isn't.  The entry on proper nouns says
Proper nouns (also called proper names) are nouns representing unique entities (such as London or John), as distinguished from common nouns which describe a class of entities (such as city or person).
Seems to me that 'geisha' describes a class of entities.
b) If it is, shouldn't the word be capitaized throughout the article?
c) If it is, so what? Do we need to point out in every article that the subject is or isn't a proper noun?
Foltor 12:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proper noun?

message: I have merged his recent edit with the previous text, as I think it is important to stress that geisha do not have sex with clients. Also his change was a little vague - "historically" makes it clearer. John Smith's 17:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits by 128.46.207.28