Talk:Attempted schisms in the Baháʼí Faith/Archive 3

message: Archived Cuñado  - Talk 18:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

message: One does not simply remove material, that meets wikipedia guidelines on content and sourcing, from an article without discussion on the talk page at the very least.
Removing the material, while suggesting that it be moved, but not moving it yourself is not showing good faith indeed. 
You might take an hour and read the Five Pillars — One, Two and Four seem particularly appropriate.MARussellPESE 03:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  == Role of the Hands== 

message: Anyone care to do so?  The page is getting huge again. -- Christian Edward Gruber 23:50, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: done -- Jeff3000 19:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive time again, I think 

message: In the complete absence of any estimates for the size of the BUPC, this reference will do. So far there are only 2 references which give any indication of the size. If you don't like it you can add references of higher quality. Cuñado  - Talk 20:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually this source is a personal website and a secondary source so it isn't reliable. The other source is reasonable. The fact that this group isn't covered in even a few places at all is indicative of its scope. Perhaps this subject can rest? MARussellPESE 20:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Cuñado  - Talk 20:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BUPC 

message: Please see this talk for discussion of this edit. MARussellPESE 22:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: BUPC succession dispute

message: Does anyone have an objection to removing the POV from this statement currently found in the intro:
:Unsuccessful claimants have been expelled as Covenant-breakers, though such claimants sometimes define the successful claimant in the same way...
I know, the mainstream Baha'is equate their numbers to them being "successful", but is that statement actually NPOV? Don't mean to start a whole thing, but it is in the intro and starts the reader off on a slanted journey, in my POV. Could it be changed to something like:
:Claimants challenging the widely accepted succession have been expelled as covenant-breakers, though such claimants likewise regard members of the mainstream Baha'i faith in the same way... 
It occurs to me that this current version may be the result of a previous concensus.  Nonetheless, it's wording is heavy handed and deserves reconsideration, yes? Jeff March 7, 2006
::Sounds good to me, go ahead.  Only change is having tha diacretics on the word Bahá'í. -- Jeff3000 12:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The changes sound fine. Although I try not to use "mainstream Baha'i Faith" whenever possible. Cuñado  - Talk 17:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Claimants challenging the widely accepted succession have been expelled as Covenant-Breakers, though such claimants likewise regard the others in the same way...
MARussellPESE 19:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I challenge the idea that Sohrab only attracted a few followers.  From the little I've read so far, they, at one time, were actually quite an enormous organization.  I have only started doing the research necessary and not really sure how much I'm going to do on it, unless some others pipe in and fill it out, at some point.  One of the founders, was Liet. Gov of New York at one point I believe.  That's interesting. I don't yet see a seperate page for him though. Wjhonson 18:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone's going to pipe up and do an extensive study on him. If you want to then I think it would really improve the page to be honest. Those debates were serious in those days and mostly ignored now because they became defunct. Shoghi Effendi in God Passes By addresses several of the issues brought up by those American groups, which are not issues any more. Cuñado  - Talk 18:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well Shoghi wouldn't be an unbiased pov on what this group did or didn't do, or whether it does or doesn't survive.  The auto-bio by Julie doesn't really address that issue.  I've added a bunch of biographical background material to the page for Lewis Stuyvesant Chanler.  Got sidetracked updating all the links for the Astors etc since he was a descendent of John Jacob Astor, the richest man in the world at one time.  Also Lewis had a famous brother, perhaps even more famous than himself and I had to go work on that page a bit.  Interesting stuff.  Anyway, still haven't gotten around to trying to tackle the page for Julie which, if anything, will be much bigger and more controversial I'm sure.  Julie was rather outspoken, she apparently appeared a few times before Congress.  So it looks like she might be an interesting character if I can find the time. Wjhonson 21:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, Shoghi Effendi is considered POV in that context, but then their own statements are therefore POV as well. -- Jeff3000 21:46, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro: Successful / Unsuccessful? 

message: A few facts to present here:
*He was, according to J.R.I. Cole, a Bahá'í from 1965-1980.
*There are only two books to his name on Babí/Bahá'í studies that are available on the web, and only one on Islamic studies of which he was co-editor:
:#Islam in the Modern World
:#Rituals in Babism and Baha'ism
:#The Sources for Early Babi Doctrine and History: A Survey
:I am having a very hard time finding more than a few references to his published articles on Babí/Bahá'í studies.
:#
:#
:#
:*He refers to himself as an Islamic scholar, not a Babí/Bahá'í scholar. (See his Newcastle upon Tyne writeup, and Royal Literary Fund writeup.)
*He has twenty-three novels to his credit.
*He is not an historian. He's a Persian literature scholar. (See the above writeups.)
*He is no longer working in the field. In fact he hasnt' worked in the field for ten years. His last academic post was Honorary Fellow, School of Arabic & Islamic Studies, University of Durham. He ran afoul of his Saudi Sponsors while at Durham (See his RLF writeup.)
*He's currently on the staff of the University of Newcastle upon Tyne in the The School of
English Literature, Language & Linguistics, where he is a Royal Literary Fund Fellow.
All of this is not intended to impeach MacEoin's work, which was extensive. (See this for an example of what he has done.) However, this is intended to put away nonsense like "he published numerous books and articles", is the greatest living Bahá'í scholar, and other such hyperbole. Every so often someone comes in and paints this picture of him and it needs to be set in context. MARussellPESE 19:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This might help clear this up, I created Denis MacEoin, please feel free to add to it and link when referring to him. You'll see from the external biographies that his identity and connection with the Baha'i Faith are minimal, and like MARussellPESE said, he calls himself a linguist, and professor of Islamic studies (not a Baha'i expert). I don't think his contributions are especially noteworthy, except when his work is published in a noteworthy Encyclopedia or other book. Cuñado  - Talk 22:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Denis MacEoin