Talk:Sex Pistols

message: Fifteen years have passed since the article's promotion to FA in 2006. One comment made by now-inactive editor two years ago (#Very editoralised) has me thinking: has the article still lived up to FA standards today? Is the article about the rock band that lasted three years in 1970s detailed enough, under-detailed (despite the article's size), or overly detailed?
Also, one of the non-free images (:File:Sex Pistols, August 1975.jpg) still has an incomplete rationale/summary, but that could be easily fixable. One of the links is dead. A UK chart column of the "Discography > Other albums" section lacks sources verifying peak positions. The "Legacy" section details impact on the US and the UK, but I can't see info about the band's impact elsewhere outside those countries. Also, unless otherwise, the "History" section would be too large to load and read, especially on mobile, and should be split into sections. Id est the "History" header should be eliminated, and its sub-headers should be converted into headers. --George Ho (talk) 08:07, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA review needed? 

message: No response to concerns raised over a year ago; listing at WP:FARGIVEN. SandyGeorgia (Talk)  16:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  URFA/2020 and FARGIVEN 

message: "they are one of the most groundbreaking acts in the history of popular music" isn't very encyclopedic. There's no source to even say they're considered one of the most groundbreaking acts in the history of popular music  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.148.48 (talk) 11:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Statements that are sourced in the body of the article don't need to also be sourced in the lead, and that statement ties back to a claim in the cultural influence section. However, I could not verify the claim from those sources so I have tagged it. QuietHere (talk) 06:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I support that tag and was glad to see it - but the lead is a problem. Musically they were not groundbreaking in any way at all. Hence McClaren's statement "Christ, if people bought the records for the music, this thing would have died a death long ago,". Quoted in 1977, just as the Pistols died a death. The line in the lead shocked me as it is stated in Wikivoice - the word 'considered' really ought to be there if the statement remains. Not to say that they didn't cause mayhem, of course, but that's not 'groundbreaking' either. (for critical context, Metal Box is considered 'groundbreaking') Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:30, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree and have changed to "one of the most culturally influential acts ", which I think is fair enough (although more influential in Europe than the US). I always had the feeling that Lyndon left because of the pedestrian style and himself and wobble had already been plotting working towards Metal Box.  Ceoil (talk) 23:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subjective intro 

message: Should we include Wally Nightingale, Stella Nova (rhen known as Steve New) and Nick Kent as Sex Pistols? They were all early guitarists during the period in which Steve Jones was the vocalist and they were being billed under the "Sex Pistols" name at the time (although sometimes "QT Jones and his Sex Pistols"). They had a brief two guitar lineup even during Rotten’s time with the band with Nova.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Actuallyjoseph (talk • contribs) 07:31, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other members 

message: I will recompile here a list citations I still haven't finished working on; some are missing the parameters for | language= and the correct | title = with a | trans-title = ... others I just haven't gotten to yet (as it would be so much easier if websources had been left as citation templates):
* Missing publisher, NVPI is not author (what is NVPI, publisher link?), and title is incorrect with no lang= or trans-title  
* I can't find this at that page? 
* Unsure how to handle this one ? It's unclear to me if rocklist.net has copyright permission to duplicate Rolling Stone material ?? 
* I don't know what fodderstompf is ?? 
* Can we improve on this source?  The text it's citing seems uncontroversial, and we can probably find it in a better source?  * 
 stopping there to give you a chance to catch up; this kind of work wipes out my back from the old injury.  SandyGeorgia (Talk)  18:06, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation work 

message: * Do we need this bit?  Should the shop have its own article instead? McLaren's and Westwood's shop had opened in 1971 as Let It Rock, with a 1950s revival Teddy Boy theme. It had been renamed in 1972 to focus on another revival trend, the '50s rocker look.[8] 
*:I think so, as it explains that Punk was infulenced by UK Sub-culture going back to the 50s. 03:28, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: *Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

text: *Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

text: *Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

text: *Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

text: *Done Cut a little as its a bit fluffy. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

text: *Done (I think but need to revisit). Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: * The "History" section is most of the article; at this point (they are now The Sex Pistols), is a new main heading warranted?
: What do you think about:
::1	Beginnings
:::1.1	Formation
:::1.2	Lydon joins
:::1.3	Early following
::2   Fame
:::2.1 The Grundy Incident
:::2.2 Sid Vicious replaces Matlock
:::2.3 God Save the Queen
::: 2.4 Bollocks album
::3 Break-up
:::3.1	Aftermath
:::3.2	Post-Lydon releases
:::3.3	Reunions
*:This seems best, but need to ponder. Ceoil (talk) 23:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early following 

message: * This article is almost 10,000 words of readable prose (typical for DCGeist work-- he simply did not use WP:SS, an WP:WIAFA criterion).  My first impression of this section is that far too much space is given to the Grundy incident, when it has its own article.  Trimming potential ??  We don't need all the blow-by-blow detail when there is a sub-article. They said fucking and shit on an early evening television show seems enough; the thing goes on for four paragraphs with two ultra-long quotes.
** As a first example: Chris Thomas, who had produced Roxy Music and mixed Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon, was brought in to produce. (Chris Thomas has his own article; offtopic here ?)
* Flow is off in first para.  They get a contract.  They start recording.  The band rejects it.  That ends that, one thinks? But then we're told of the producer ???  And then the same para goes in to a single.  So what did they reject, exactly? Was the single released instead of an album?  
* Is the influential needed here ? Colin Newman of the influential band Wire, described it as "the clarion call of a generation".[105]
* Could you check this versus the source in terms of copyvio or paraphrasing?  It reads like a quote ... and seems to beg for attribution.  The Pistols' stance was aggrieved, euphoric and nihilistic, all at the same time. Rotten's howls of "I am an anti-Christ" and "Destroy!" repurposed rock as an ideological weapon.
* The second para seems to still have plenty of that "flowery language" you mentioned earlier.
*:Mostly done, but pls check! Ceoil (talk) 03:20, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mainstream fame 

message: * The entire first para, vis-a-vis The Beatles, could be much more tightly worded ... too much quoting, we can get the picture by using our own words.
* What does this add?  Julien Temple says that getting rid of Glen and replacing him with Sid was the last project he saw Rotten and Malcolm really work together on".
*:Removed Ceoil (talk) 23:55, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: *This was cut. Ceoil (talk) 02:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sid Vicious replaces Matlock 

message: * This should be attributed: The song's social impact is now recognised as "punk's crowning glory".[162]
*:There is a match here, but have my doubts as to which came first. Ceoil (talk) 03:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  God Save the Queen 

message: * What are "both" Bodies ?  Containing both "Bodies"—
*:Jesus. Reworded. Ceoil (talk) 02:09, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Album 

message: * I can't recall reading about his criminal record ? delayed due to American authorities' reluctance to issue a visa to Jones, given his criminal record, 
* Scarred ? (How ?) appeared with the words "Gimme a fix" scared on his chest.
*:Note to self — these not done. Ceoil (talk) 23:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Break-up 

message: * Off-topic? Has its own article. The band scored a UK top-ten hit with their debut single, 1978's "Public Image". 
*:I'd like to keep this in as PIL's "Public Image" is the best thing Lyndon ever did, and shows how far he developed almost immediately after the pistols.  
* Off-topic? Has its own article. ... backed by the Idols, featuring Arthur Kane and Jerry Nolan of the New York Dolls. 
*:Trimmed Ceoil (talk) 01:52, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with this, it shows he was about image rather than bass guitar, but ok might trim or switch quotes to prose. Also Lydon has said many times he has major regrets about what happened to Sid; might rephrase with more sensitivity....Ceoil (talk) 02:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed in the end. Ceoil (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath 

message: * Convoluted, hard to get through: On 21 November 1980, the final "new" studio recordings attributed to the Sex Pistols were released by Virgin: "Black Leather" and "Here We Go Again", recorded by Jones and Cook during the mid-1978 Swindle sessions, were paired as one of a half-dozen 7-inch records (the other five reconfiguring previously released material) sold together as Sex Pack.[228][229]
*:Removed this. Never heard of it, Google agrees. Ceoil (talk) 02:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-Lydon releases 

message: * From what source comes this? Although the Pistols were not the first punk band, the few recordings they released during their brief initial existence were catalytic expressions of the punk movement. The releases of "Anarchy in the U.K.", "God Save the Queen" and Never Mind the Bollocks are counted among the most important events in popular music.
* Something wonky here: Among the audience of merely forty people or so were many who became leading figures in the punk and post-punk movements: Pete Shelley and Howard Devoto, who organised the gig, as well as Bernard Sumner, Ian Curtis and Peter Hook of Joy Division, Mark E. Smith, John Cooper Clarke, Morrissey and Anthony H. Wilson saw the band at their second Manchester band on 20 July.[78]
:Its actually true!., Morrissey was also there!...will work on...prob next weekend. zzz and thanks!!! Ceoil (talk) 02:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Done now - "catalytic expressions" (ugg) removed, and "among the most important events in popular music" reffed by those supporting  the preceding list of rankings. Ceoil (talk) 04:14, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence 

message: * Unpaired quote marks: Toby Creswell argues that the Pistols agenda was inchoate, to say the least. It was a general call to rebellion that falls apart at the slightest scrutiny."[271] 
*:Done. Ceoil (talk) 02:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conceptual basis 

message: * Something missing: Musicians other Jones and Cook who recorded songs on The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle:
Done for now, SandyGeorgia (Talk)  21:35, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guest musicians 

message: I think it would be valuable to add this quote from Jon Savage's England's Dreaming (page 71) to the conceptual basis section of the page.
"In fact, it was Steve Jones who first had the idea of putting the group, or any group, together with McLaren. He chose McLaren, not vice versa."
Don't know how to go about adding it so it fits with the rest of the section so I'm putting it here. Theotherdavis (talk) 06:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conceptual basis 

message: # Who is quoted with "would wear a velvet ..." and can there be in-text attribution?
# Is it relevant to mention the Golden Jubilee year? Not in source.
# Is there reason to capitalize "Top Ten" or other numbers in some places but have the lowercase, hyphenated "top-ten" in others?
Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Only spotting these now....Ceoil (talk) 03:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies; only done now. Ceoil (talk) 07:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tidbits 

message: The article states the 1978 U.S. tour was scheduled for 9 dates, but the Pistols only played 5 shows in 12 days.  This is incorrect.  According to the official Sex Pistols website - at https://www.sexpistolsofficial.com/gig-archive-1975-2008/ - one show on Dec. 28 (1977) in Pittsburgh was cancelled, then they played 7 shows between Jan. 5 and Jan. 14 (nine days).  Elsquared67 (talk) 04:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: ? The source we're citing also says seven shows. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Counting out, I also get seven: Atlanta, Memphis, San Antonio, Baton Rouge, Dallas, Tulsa and San Francisco, and see. Thanks OP; hang on. Ceoil (talk) 06:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Article updated: see also "Notwithstanding their ill-fated 7-date fiasco", Billboard 2 Aug 2003. Need to check re nine days total. Ceoil (talk) 06:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Will be a few days before I get to validate the original schedule, but its more than probable that OP is right on the timeline; billboard here says two dates were cancelled and 7+2= 9. Ceoil (talk) 07:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Ok done. Good spot Elsquared67. Ceoil (talk) 07:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  U.S. tour