Talk:Battle of the Chinese Farm

message: The word "Decisive" is misspelled in this section's book links, making it extremely difficult to find in a search engine. I don't know how to edit a { {reflist}}.
:Error corrected. --Sherif9282 (talk) 03:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: This source writes almost exactly what Shazly says. Four armored brigades could never make up 1,000 tanks. He doesn't mention numbers, but Shazly does. Sherif9282 (talk) 03:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I reverted was the removal of the "biggest tank battle since..." anecdote, which is quite famous and is appropriate in the lead. Here and here, following a fast Google search, are other sources. I'm not exactly sure about the numbers, I'll look for them when I have time. -- Nudve (talk) 05:33, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

text: According to Zeev Schiff, the attack had 800 tanks (A History of the Israeli Army, p. 223). Benny Morris gives them 1,000 (Righteous Victims, p. 422). Chaim Herzog wrote that they had several divisions, and that some 2,000 tanks were locked in battle. Kenneth Pollack writes about this extensively in a footnote. He says there were 9-10 brigades. He thinks the Egyptian accounts that say only four brigades were involved are "absurd". He also says Gamasy recalled six or seven brigades in a later interview. (Arabs at War, pp. 612-613). Can you give me a page number on Gawrych? For some reason, it does not allow a search. Also, since the entire book seems to be online, can you give a link? Thanks, Nudve (talk) 06:15, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the link. I'm sure that there are many interesting pieces in there. When I asked for a page number, What I meant was the page number within the PDF file that says the attack was carried out by four brigades. -- Nudve (talk) 06:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I see. This is interesting. As Pollack notes, these figures mean that 66-88 percent of the tanks were lost, which is unheard of in modern warfare. Especially considering that they weren't enveloped by the Israelis and broke off the attack after a few hours. Still, this would mean we'd have to provide a range. -- Nudve (talk) 08:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I've added a range. Turns out Rabinovich also estimates 400-500. What I meant was not the total number of tanks, but the percentage out of the original total. -- Nudve (talk) 18:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Alright :) I suppose at this point this discussion is going into WP:NOTFORUM territory... -- Nudve (talk) 07:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Egyptian tanks 

message: I've just discovered that article. It has a few problems. First of all, the title is made up. More importantly, it covers the exact same engagement that is detailed here under Stouthearted men. I think it should be redirected. Any thoughts? -- Nudve (talk) 12:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose I agree with you. Sherif9282 (talk) 16:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thoughts:, the battle of sinai should be re-named Operation Stouthearted Men and drastically expanded, telling only the story of the Israeli crossing itself (logistics, roller bridges, planning, initial crossing with zodiacks and so on). The chinese farm should be mentioned in it briefly, while all the Israeli crossing data should be imported from the chinese farm article into the re-named article. Both issues are huge on their own, and right now they are simply mixed together--Omrim (talk) 04:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Theoretically, we could have three articles: one about "Operation Gazelle" (this is what the Egyptian offensive was called, right?), one about Stouthearted Men (the Israeli crossing), and one about the Chinese Farm. It all depends on how much info we have about those. Thoughts? -- Nudve (talk) 07:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what the Egyptian offensive was called, but I don't think it was Gazelle. In this article the Chinese Farms battle is mentioned as being part of Operation Gazelle, the Israeli plan to strike between the 2nd and 3rd Egyptian Armies (I suppose that was a mistake and that it should said Operation Stouthearted Men). As for the Egyptian assault, I don't think there is any more info that we can add aside what is in the Battle of the Sinai article. I think we should create a separate article about Stouthearted Men which would briefly speak about the Chinese Farms. Along with the Battle of the Chinese Farm, that should be enough. Sherif9282 (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Alright. In that case, I support Omrim's suggestion. -- Nudve (talk) 16:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[Battle of the Sinai]] 

message: It looks like some changes need to be made to the prelude section. First of all :The plan established with Syria called for Egypt to act as a second front, diverting Israeli resources long enough for the Syrians to penetrate the Golan Heights and flood into Israel...
If the Egyptians and Syrians were to attack Israel at the same time, how was Egypt supposed to divert Israeli resources? It would sound more like the other way around, since the main Israeli effort was directed at the Golan. Also, the objective of both Egypt and Syria was to recapture as much ground lost in 1967, not to invade Israel, yet the sentence mentioned above, as well as this one:transversing the massive Sinai Desert to attack Israel directly was deemed impossible makes it appear that Arab armies really did intend to invade Israel.
Egyptians resolved to recapture as much territory... as possible This is also incorrect since the Egyptians only planned to capture and hold a strip of ground on the east bank of the canal. This fact should be stated instead of saying: recapture as much territory. Well? Sherif9282 (talk) 05:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Prelude

message: After a day and a half of savage fighting, eighty-five Egyptian tanks had been destroyed along with a similar number of Israeli tank losses,[2][5] the Egyptians had from the farm, and the Israelis were able to place the bridge across the canal.
The Egyptians had ??? from the farm?  This is unclear, probably an editing error.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pechaney (talk • contribs) 18:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear 

message: I have a question for Nudve.
The total number of tanks participating in this battle ranges from 1,200-1,800. In the Battle of Chawinda, 2,300 tanks participated initially, with the number rising to nearly 2,700 in the later stages of the battle. That article also states the Battle of Chawinda was the largest tank battle since the Battle of Kursk.
So which one is the largest tank battle since World War II? Sherif9282 (talk) 08:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I know nothing about the Battle of Chawinda. What is the source for those figures? -- Nudve (talk) 16:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Nice doc. I think YouTube videos are generally deprecated as sources, but it's not impossible. I've looked, and Trevor Dupuy cites the 300 killed figure, as well as tanks losses (p. 500). I can add it, if you don't have conflicting sources. -- Nudve (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I would put that video as an external link. I'll add the figures from Dupuy. -- Nudve (talk) 15:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Interesting. Some of the sources do say that it was the largest battle since WWII "at the time", so maybe it was the largest until 1973. Again, I'm not that knowledgeable here. -- Nudve (talk) 15:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

text: You're right. The numbers refer to Sharon's division on the night of October 15-16, which is the "timeline" given in the infobox. I assumed they include Reshef's brigade, but maybe they don't. Interestingly, Dupuy calls the battle "Operation 'Strongheart' and the Chinese Farm", while the next chapter is titled "Battle of the Chinese Farm, October 16-17". -- Nudve (talk) 16:01, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

text: I moved the info, hopefully to the right place. This article is a mess. I wish I had more time to work on it. -- Nudve (talk) 17:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest tank battle? 

message: Why it calls 'chinese'?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.25.53.74 (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Chinese? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: 217.54.138.202 (talk) 00:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2021 

message: Egypt was not defeated in the battle of the Chinese farm but won militarily and resisted the Israelis but after their ammunition ran out,an order came for them to withdraw after the liberation of Talbieh (Missouri) Hamed2139 (talk) 06:41, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel victory??