Talk:Anti-Polish sentiment/Archive 8

message: ===proverb: "Stolen today, tommorow in Poland"===
The following quotes removed as irrelevant.
*"Heute gestohlen, morgen in Polen" ("Stolen today, tommorow in Poland") — modern German saying"
**The say describes a real experience of voluminous car theft, a sad fact, but have nothing to do with polonophobia. It is unlucky that Poland lay on the route of stolen cars from Deutschland to Soviet Union. mikka (t) 18:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is anti-Polonism here? I don't see any hatred expressed. mikka (t) 19:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed parts 

message: The following quotes removed as irrelevant.
*"Heute gestohlen, morgen in Polen" ("Stolen today, tommorow in Poland") — modern German saying"
**The say describes a real experience of voluminous car theft, a sad fact, but have nothing to do with polonophobia. It is unlucky that Poland lay on the route of stolen cars from Deutschland to Soviet Union. mikka (t) 18:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is anti-Polonism here? I don't see any hatred expressed. mikka (t) 19:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: proverb: "Stolen today, tommorow in Poland"

message: http://www.westfr.de/ns-literatur/konservative.htm
--Molobo 19:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The referenced article is from a 1989 professorial dissertation. The cited chapter reviewes conservative novels written in the late 19th and the early 20th century, specifically novels which contributed to and culminated in Nazi ideology. Anti-polish sentiment is mentioned in the review of novels written by Paul Schreckenbach early in the 20th century. One should, however, keep in mind that the review concentrates much more on Scheckenbach's attacks against the catholic church. In respect to Poland, the review concludes: "In der imperialistischen Haltung, besonders gegenüber Polen, verbinden sich preußisch-konservative und völkische Interessen", which I would translate with "His imperialistic attitude, particularly towards Poland, combines Prussian-conservative and nationalist interests". Groeck 17:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Add info and article

message: So please watch out for awkward statements such "add this lies" etc.--Molobo 20:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Somebody vandalised several of my posts

message: *Bad jokes. A good example is the Harald Schmidt show. In reality, bad jokes about one's neighbor are very common in Germany. Neighbor may mean the neighboring state (or country), or even the neighboring city. That does not indicate an Anti-anything prejudice. It is just bad jokes. Also, based on Schmidt's jokes, Germans are also Anti-Catholic, Anti-Japanese, Anti-East-Germans, Anti-Women, Anti-Bavarian (Bavaria is a German state), and so on. Germans must be Anti-Everything, I guess.
*:However Germans didn't use such stereotypes to exterminate East Germans, Bavarian or women in specific.Jokes that Harald Schmidt uses are repeat of stereotypes that have led to mass murder of 6 milion Polish citizens and destruction of Poland and  the fact that he is awarded for them certainly speaks something about German society if only about the lack of awarness of those German atrocities towards Poland, if not about the lack of will to know about them.--Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *I am unaware of any racial extermination efforts on part of Poland towards Jews or Germans.Furthermore your comparision with Prussia is flawed because Prussia didn't aim at destroying Germans as cultural group.It did towards Poland.And its stereotyping of Poles led to atrocities in WW1 and WW2 against Polish population. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you please provide sources for your claims ? Especially the last sentence appears to be somewhat speculative. It would possibly be more accurate to say that propaganda let to both stereotyping and atrocities, though that is my own guess and I do not have any sources. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Stereotypes of Poles as barbaric people without culture that are inferior to Germans originated in Kingdom of Prussia-this was also talked about in previous talk.As to stereotype of Pole  being a criminal used in mass murder see my posts below where I give examples of its usage during German atrocities against Polish people. --Molobo 22:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Doesn't mean anything, these are persecuted inviduals not ethnic groups.Germany persecuted Poles as whole group not singled out inviduals.Furthermore Germany classified Poles as subhumans.--Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad jokes 

message: *Wartime propaganda. A good example is Gott strafe England - does the existence of this phrase and its use during World War I that mean that Germany is Anti-British ? No, it doesn't. Wartime propaganda is just bad, not more and not less. Again, it does not indicate an Anti-anything prejudice.
*:However English weren't classified as subhuman animals to be exterminated as Poles were by  Germans.--Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wartime [[propaganda]] 

message: *Right-wing and other fringe group propaganda. Same thing here. Sure, it is bad, but it does not reflect the opinion or attitude of the population in general, only of a few. Plus, such groups are probably Anti-foreigner all over the world, so what is the point ?. Doesn't matter, since antisemitism for example isn't reflected by all of society but elements of it expressing such views are noted.
*:So we can add info that People expressing antipolish views sucha as Rudi Pawelka still exist in Germany unopposed. --Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems you are more concerned with preserving a good name of Germany then providing information.Likewise antisemitic groups that would be listed in antisemitism don't mean the whole society is antisemitic but that such people exist.The same with relation towards Poland-although I have yet to see polls on German general attitude to Poles. --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See . Unfortunately, it is in German; maybe someone can dig up an English version. Groeck 21:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Right-wing and other fringe group propaganda 

message: *Florian Illies. It seems to me that his comments about Schmidt's Polish jokes are actually meant to be positive, not negative (in the context used, making jokes about someone or something reflects some level of respect for the target of the jokes, not disrespect). But obviously that is just my POV.
:I have now spent several days trying to find any reference on the web which would indicate that Florian Illies "cashes in on a clear anti-Polish bias", much less how that would show an anti-Polish sentiment in German polulation if it were true. All I have been able to find is references that he thinks that it is ok to make Polish jokes. Unless someone provides a reference which would prove the claim, I am going to remove the text. Groeck 15:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerns around Florian Illies 

message: This comment refers to the first part of this chapter. I understand it has been discussed before. After reading through the related talk page comments, there appears to have been an agreement that the statements made are unsupported by the facts. Yet, the text is still there.
I spent some time last night trying to find references for the several "it has been cited that ..." statements in this chapter. I could not find any. References cited confirm the statements, but not an associated Anti-Polish sentiment, much less an "Anti-Polonism" associated with it (of course, I might have missed something).
In addition, the claim made about Polish cavalry fails to mention that the "supidity and incompetence" argument was used during WW II as propaganda by the Germans (and would thus belong to the pre-1945 section). References I found on the Web, contrary to the claim made, typically refer to the bravery of such attacks, and tend to correctly clarify that it was typically not real attacks, but the best way for attacking horses to pass by suddenly appearing tanks.
As such, the text should be removed, or references should be provided for every "has been cited".
Groeck 13:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What statements are unsupported by facts ? --Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I asked for references. Without references, all statements are unsupported. Groeck 18:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: References were givne in previous versions and talk. The article is vandalised so it doesn't have them.What references do you have in mind. --Molobo 21:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

text: All of them. The references I have been able to find confirm the statements, but not the "Has been cited as examples of anti-Polonism ..." claims. Cited where ? Please provide references which associate the statements with anti-Polonism (links, please). Please note that I do not question the claims; all I am asking for is references supporting them. Groeck 16:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Persistent prejudice against Poles (1945 to present)

message: Add info on consistant stereotypes in German cultural sphere on Poles:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/football/09/02/poland.injuries.ap/?section=cnn_latest
Austria also faces the prospect of Polish prosecutors investigating a complaint against midfielder Dietmar Kuehbauer.
Kuehbauer, who is set to play, is alleged to have refused to be interviewed with Poland's Adam Ledwon on Austrian television last Saturday, saying he "stinks Polish."
--Molobo 18:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Add

message: Would it be possible to use some style of formatting to help separating comments from each other ? Groeck 18:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess not. Sigh. Groeck 22:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Formatting

message: The reference to the Polish encyclopedia that was brought by Molobo is a strong point in favour of the retaining the article under the title anti-Polonism. Alx-pl D 20:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Polonism in an encyclopedia 

message: I am not following all discussions here, but this recent anon edit strikes me like a vandalism. Shouldn't it be reverted? If so, I'd recommend incorporating recent good faith edits of Sidp into old version it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent vandalism not reverted? 

message: The google's first hits (I omit Wikipedia mirrors) give
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Ukrainian relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* unknown
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
* Polish-Jewish relations
(this is the result of screening of the first 30 google hits). Alx-pl D 10:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to not respond. The article must be internally consistent. We can't say "it's used in the context of Jewish-Polish relations" and then cite a series of examples relating to Germany or (historically) Prussia. The examples above appear numerous but to the English reader remain sparse. A few ten year-old examples, a few Polish writers in English etc. I don't want to introduce systemic bias but this is the English wiki. What is the appropriate way to contextualize this term? Marskell 23:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not talking about a single sentence lead. Plz reference what we were discussing. Or, to be me more precise, what is the appropraite way to unpack the term. Marskell 23:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish stuff 

message: It does not mean two or even four references, Molobo. You want, as I have stated more times than I can count, to insert the Black Legend bit as time of day. It's not time of day. You haul out the POV soapbox any chance you get and all you're doing with this is inserting POV. "Often" means regularly, in common discourse, obvious. There is absolutely nothing obvious about a "Polish Black Legend." Marskell 00:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: guys, I don't even get what this "black legend" stuff is supposed to be, in either of the contested versions. What does Anti-Polonism have to do with Spaniards? Can you not just quote whoever made the comparison, verbatim, for better or worse? I must say that the black legend article is not very lucid either (look at the ToC, it seems to ramble about random episodes of Spanish history). For the uninvolved, it is quite difficult to follow the contorted logic of nationalists, and their little rhetorical pointscorings, so I would much appreciate if you could write this article in plain English, without having the reader read between the lines. 81.63.114.127 10:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "What does Anti-Polonism have to do with Spaniards?" Very little, which has been my point. Both countries are historically Catholic, which is one basis for comparison, but as I say and as your comment underscores "Black Legend" refers to Spain in common discourse. Yes, if someone could produce a verbatim point that we can discuss here that would be helpful. Marskell 10:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does often mean? 

message: Here is the translated content of the article from the Polish Wikipedia to compare: (Alx-pl 16:39, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for taking the time Alx. Does this not underscore the point that's been made about re-hashing historical stuff? Marskell 09:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion the current version (and all the previous ones that I saw) of the article on English Wikipedia does not cover at all the fact that the term Anti-Polonism is used in nationalist publications and does not cover the way the term is used there. Alx-pl D 18:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I am very sorry to read that. I am also very sorry to write the following sentences as they are not to the point but to the person. This very sentence, Molobo, says a lot about how much you value what's Polish. In fact it reveals that you don't think at all on how to make everything what's Polish shine, but on how to make people think that everything what's Polish is crappy and of no value at all. Once more, I am very sorry to write that. Alx-pl D 17:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The exact same issue was pushed on Anti-Americanism: namely, that the topic isn't actually a particular problem but rather an accusation that right-wingers and nationalists trot out to smear people. We incorporate that argument in use of the term there and could probably do the same here. Marskell 07:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article on Polish Wikipedia as written by administrator Szwedzki

message: :Thanks for taking the time Alx. Does this not underscore the point that's been made about re-hashing historical stuff? Marskell 09:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion the current version (and all the previous ones that I saw) of the article on English Wikipedia does not cover at all the fact that the term Anti-Polonism is used in nationalist publications and does not cover the way the term is used there. Alx-pl D 18:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very sorry to read that. I am also very sorry to write the following sentences as they are not to the point but to the person. This very sentence, Molobo, says a lot about how much you value what's Polish. In fact it reveals that you don't think at all on how to make everything what's Polish shine, but on how to make people think that everything what's Polish is crappy and of no value at all. Once more, I am very sorry to write that. Alx-pl D 17:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The exact same issue was pushed on Anti-Americanism: namely, that the topic isn't actually a particular problem but rather an accusation that right-wingers and nationalists trot out to smear people. We incorporate that argument in use of the term there and could probably do the same here. Marskell 07:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on the Polish Wikipedia content 

message: As for citation of the "hen is not a bird"
http://users.erols.com/mietek/test/show_news.php?id=news120500.html
FROM UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE          DATED: 8/11/00
GEORGIE ANNE GEYER by Georgie Anne Geyer
WHEN HENS FLY: WARSAW TAKES WING TOWARD THE WEST
WARSAW, Poland -- When Russia looks westward these days, it seems to pass right over Poland. Russian leaders don't even seem to see that substantial land mass it has fought over so many times throughout history and which they have cynically regarded as merely a "corridor" -- theirs -- to Germany and to Europe. Somehow Moscow cannot bear the thought that Warsaw is now part of the West.
But it was not always that way. Historically, the Russians have considered Poland, without second thought, to be nothing but a part of imperial Mother Russia. A favorite refrain was "A hen is not a bird; it can't fly." Poland was the hen.
As for Molotov using Pilsudski's statements-objective reference please.
--Molobo 15:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes

message: I've already stated what often means: regular, time-of-day, taken for granted, easily understood. These do not apply to a putative Polish Black Legend.
I am only entering what is stated in scholary work (Lukasiewicz's book )if you have a scholary source that disputes what Lukasiewicz writes, please present it.--Molobo 18:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not wasting breath here. You cite a work, the page mentions a work. This has been gone over endlessly: our page on Black Legend, Britainnica's and any search of the topic bring up Spain--period. There is no basis for using "often." --Marskell 18:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I just did: our page, Britannica and Google. Often--that is the term disputed. Marskell 18:14, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: What are you talking about? It's the single most authoritative reference work in the English language. And it defines Black Legend vis-a-vis Spain. Marskell 17:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Once again, what does often mean? 

message: I toned down the article-Samoobrona btw is defined as leftist in its ideology so it didn't fit "far right" definition.Its already mentioned that symbolism used in past persecution of Poles is exploited by such parties-mentioning it three times and under badge from concentration camp seems improper and I believe gives dishonour to people who were forced to wear it. Of course mentioning it is ok with me but not under the badge. Information on NOP or Szczerbiec should be provided in article on them or antisemitism in Poland.
--Molobo 17:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Samoobrona btw is defined as leftist in its ideology so it didn't fit "far right" definition". Well, that depends on who defines whom. As parties like Samoobrona, League of Polish Families, Law and Justice, or National Socialist German Workers Party demonstrate, "leftist" pro-welfare state or socialist populism and "right" national rhetoric are not exactly mutually exclusive... --Thorsten1 17:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My changes

message: Komisja walczy z antypolonizmem
--Molobo 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Polish Parliament Commission to fight Antipolonism

message: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=1724846635492
More dangerous than an entertaining, if somewhat condescending, fascination with quaint folkloric customs was the tendency to link customs with biological characteristics, a topic explored in Chapter Eight, "Peopling Eastern Europe, Part II: The Evidence of Manners and the Measurements of Race." While Herder was reflecting on the Slavs, Fichte was teaching in Poland and writing negative, racist comments about the Poles. Polish women were slovenly and with a stronger sex drive than Germans (p. 335); Poland was full of wild animals, wild people, and Jews. A racist diatribe published in 1793 (Joachim Christoph Friedrich Schulz's Journey of a Livonian from Riga to Warsaw) was republished in 1941 after the Nazis had conquered Poland, reflecting a trend among German scholars from the eighteenth into the twentieth century to perceive, in the difference between Germany and Poland, a boundary between civilization and barbarism, high German Kultur and "primitive Slavdom" (p. 336).
--Molobo 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: From Prussian to Nazi persecution

message: I am intimately familiar with the subject as I have researched it for University, and right now there is majoritary consensus that no such thing as Anti-Polonism in the sense given by the article exist outside the ideology of nationalist and/or right wing Polish parties. In its current form, the article would be approved by Adam Gmurczyk. I am also curious to know why Molobo has reverted facts that I have properly sourced with embeded links and explained at the Talk Page. Several undisputed facts like the term is not included at Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN have been removed by Molobo with no explanation. As I had put it, the first part of the article focused on Modern Anti-Polonism, which is an ideological fabrication entirely, while the second one did on Historical Anti-Polonism, which was also a reality but no longer exists. I'll wait for an explanation before re adding the information that you questionably removed. Alexbulg 15:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no consensus has been achieved (see my talk page and Molobo's), I won't revert to my version, but rather put the tag to show that the article is disputed. Alexbulg 15:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't. And we would achieve neutrality, unless of course you're not interested and you defend a one sided version only. (Alexbulg, Revision as of 16:06, 13 December 2005)
As I had put it, the first part of the article focused on Modern Anti-Polonism, which is an ideological fabrication entirely, while the second one did on Historical Anti-Polonism, which was also a reality but no longer exists.
You claim that no prejudice against Poles exist ? That is an argument defeated easly. If you would read the archive like I asked you, you will multiple evidence of  modern bias towards Poles. Shall I give you book titling Poland a "hyeana" ? Or saying that "every Pole should be shot with contempt" ?  Shall I give you a link to Gazeta Wyborcza with article on "antipolish ideology" being used ?
--Molobo 15:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It doesn't exist in the sense assigned by this article, which is the same sense assigned by conspiracy theorists of right wing parties. Anti-Polonism is not a racial issue nowadays in the same sense it was i.e. in the XIX century and the first half of the XX century. Equalling Polish jokes with Nazi persecution is the typical speech of the NOP, not that of scholars. (Alexbulg, Revision as of 16:06, 13 December 2005)
And please read before editing-they are two books by German researches on antipolonismus-yet you set it as "need citation". The citation is easly found by scrolling down by sources.Not to mention your naming of Russian research as "being from XIX century" while it is from modern author speaks negatively about your contributions.
--Molobo 15:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It deals with XIX issues, that's what I clearly say, and you can't deny it. Alexbulg|Alexbulg  16:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: And thus Polish jokes=Nazism, according to you? Quite an absurd line of thought, don't you think? Alexbulg 16:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: They originated there, yet their widespread use in the U.S. use constitutes Anti-Polonism, according to you, then. So you're saying that the Unites States society is an Anti-Polish and has links to the Third Reich? Absurd. Also, I don't deny Polish jokes exist, but you say in general that they are a demonstration of Anti-Polonism and racism, which is debatable at best. Now if you talk about WWII era jokes, it should be mentioned clearly "Nazi Germany-time Polish jokes" separated from modern use, as they are commonplace in the U.S., Russia, Italy and other places nowadays, just like American, Russian or Jewish jokes exist too. But now, you're mixing everything in the same bag. Alexbulg 16:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: So according to that logic, you are clearly saying that German and Russian societies are not necesarily Anti-Polish. I recommend you also say that at the article, since it doesn't quite look like that now. Alexbulg 16:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed tag 

message: The recent edits by User:Molobo   show an undenyable trait of Anti-Semitism, and thus I recommend this article to be read with utmost care regarding the numerous POVs it contains of his authory. I also suggest extreme caution when reading further contributions by this user. Alexbulg 16:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't explain why you performed this edit removing a sourced fact  . I'm afraid I concur with the user who reverted you. Alexbulg 17:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It's your POV Molobo that the contributions are more fitting there. (Yet, Alexbulg's contributions to the discussion today are very much personal attacks, I must admit.) Alx-pl D 17:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Alx, and you are partially right. I have admitted my exciment and offered to cool down to Molobo at his talk page, with no reply from him yet. Molobo's contributions too were much more directed towards me, and my own arguments of his Anti-Semitism are shown by his edits. If that's not what he meant (and he explains what he meant by deleting relevant and sourced information regarding Jews that belongs here), he'll have my apollogy. Alexbulg 17:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Anti-Semitic edits by User Molobo 

message: This may be of interest for editors here. Alx-pl D 20:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info 

message: http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?kat=1356&wid=8128597&rfbawp=1135120771.499&ticaid=1c19
Polski deputowany do Parlamentu Europejskiego Marcin Libicki (PiS) zamierza zwrócić się do niemieckiego ministerstwa ds. rodziny, seniorów, kobiet i młodzieży z prośbą o interwencję w przypadkach dyskryminowania polskich rodziców przez niemieckie urzędy - poinformował w Berlinie doradca polskiego eurodeputowanego Norbert Napieraj.
Napieraj oraz drugi współpracownik Libickiego, Szymon Szynkowski vel Sęk, rozmawiali wcześniej z przedstawicielami niemieckiego ministerstwa oraz ambasady polskiej. Libicki kieruje komisją petycji Parlamentu Europejskiego.
Jak powiedział dziennikarzom Napieraj, do komisji docierają sygnały od Polaków mieszkających w Niemczech, wskazujące na dyskryminowanie polskich rodziców z małżeństw mieszanych. Grupa rodziców skierowała w tej sprawie petycję do komisji.
http://www.nowydzien.pl/nowydzien/1,70091,3084887.html
--Molobo 23:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you translate it and comment on that? Which source indicates that it is relevant to anti-Polonism? We need a clear statement not your interpretation, of course. Alx-pl D 23:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discrimination of Poles in Germany