Talk:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk/Archive 5

message: I hear that the fundamentalists strongly criticize Mustafa Kemal. I recall a rap by Soldiers of Allah proclaiming him to be a "so called hero". Any info?
Extremists doesn't like him because Atatürk removed Islamic State System and make a law based system that muslims and non muslims are 100% equal.
It is true some Turkish citizens don't like him. They dream of a Turkey ruled by clerics, and that is unlikely to happen.
--Ataturk was far worse to the Christians and Jews than the Ottomans, who were actually generally tolerant. It is well known that Beyazit II, for instance, rescued Jews from spain when the inquisition was persecuting them. In contrast, Mustafa Kemal did not allow those Christians and Jews who left to return to Turkey after the war. The Christian population  dropped from something like 20% to 2% when he came to power. A true Islamic state is supposed to protect the clerics and houses of worship of all faiths, although many certainly don't. I've researched this guy and I'd much rather have lived under the Islamic law (which people mistakenly assume is intolerant because of people like the Taliban who misapply it) than Ataturk's. In fact, almost all practicing Muslims hate Ataturk because of his attmepts to kill off their religion (banning hijabs, daily prayers for soldiers, etc.) Personally, I think the main reason he still has anybody who likes him is because if you voice any other opinion in Turkey, you can go to jail. 
:Yes, actually, as in every culture there are extremely religious people in Turkey who would rather undo his advancements... Actually the current government(the Prime Minister) belongs to a party that is widely known to be one of those extremely religious groups, which is why the armed forces and the President are keeping an eye on him so the things that happened in 60s and 80s wouldn't happen again.
:Calengurth 00:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic Fundamentalism 

message: What did he do between 1921 (when he was pres) and 1923 (when he was PM). Commander of the military? That should be more explicit, it's sort of hard to follow. His positions in earlier years should be mentioned as well, they are sort of spotty --AW 21:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing out. I can try to improve the coverage of those periods when I hopefully have the time in the near future. It would be great to see these points getting improved by other users too. Atilim Gunes Baydin 22:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I just don't know enough to do it. I think saying what official positions he held would be good. --AW 22:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What was his position??

message: This article was tagged with a Turkish Freemasons category. What is the reference to this information? Aknxy 21:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That claim is definitely unsourced. I removed it now but I'm pretty sure that some other loser (see: personal attack) will add that again in the future. Because people are interested in such stuff here: unsourced labelings and accusations to the biography articles, warring about former names of cities on place articles and so on. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 22:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying someone is a Mason is hardly a personal attack. --AW 22:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you got me wrong! I'm the one making the attack by using the word "loser" for an editor. That was meant to be a joke. Cheers, Atilim Gunes Baydin 22:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh ok, my apologies. It's hard to tell sometimes! --AW 22:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What is the reference that he was a freemason?

message: Could the administation and users take an independent look for the following reversal of useful and pertinent contributions at the Mustafa Kemal Ataturk site please? It is very difficult for me not to interpret the revision by Khoikhoi as disrespectful vandalism and disruptive behaviour. More I studied his log history at various article related to the Turkish subjects and prior bans for the same disruptive behaviour, more concerned I became. Could someone help revert the edits he damaged and request him to be more respectful to others' work? Thank you.
(cur) (last)  16:06, 10 November 2006 Khoikhoi (Talk | contribs) (rv to last version by me) (what last revision? this is a whole sale deletion and vandalism, is it not?)
(cur) (last)  14:59, 10 November 2006 Incir (Talk | contribs) (→External links) 
(cur) (last)  14:26, 10 November 2006 88.242.84.98 (Talk) (→See also) 
(cur) (last)  06:19, 10 November 2006 71.162.66.250 (Talk) (→An Overview in A Nutshell) 
(cur) (last)  05:59, 10 November 2006 71.162.66.250 (Talk) (→International relations)
:Hi. I added a  tag to sentence about MacArthur calling him his best friend, because it needs a source. I also removed "filled with never ending selfless hard work and genuine concern over his nation and country" because it was uncessary and sounded too POV-ish. As for the "Overview in A Nutshell", I don't get what the point of it is. We already have a biography section that discussed his life in detail. Lastly, I removed a link to the Armenian Genocide in the "see also" section. Cheers, Khoikhoi 04:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't even understand half of the things you just said. There is no cultural prejudice here... When did I say he was an alcoholic? What's wrong with saying he consumed vast quanities of it? Does it tarnish his image or something? And who is "five"? If there are things not already in the article, add them to the biography section, but don't create a second biography section—it looks sloppy. If you have a reliable source about MacArthur, cite it in the article. How is it a "show off"? I would like to remind out to remain civil here. Khoikhoi 04:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed. Khoikhoi 04:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request of assistance for vandal user behaviour by Khoikhoi

message: restored sustained vandalism by ManiF helping disruption that Khoikhoi was instigating on a few rather nice changes the user 71.162.xx was trying to protect. 
05:23, 11 November 2006 ManiF (Talk | contribs) 
05:19, 11 November 2006 ManiF (Talk | contribs) 
05:00, 11 November 2006 71.162.66.250 (Talk)
Bubblebuster 06:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Strange edit wars

message: The following suggestion for entry by the "Bubbleblaster" that kept deleted may read better when dispersed in the pertinent sections in the main article, rather than a recap at the end.
172GAL 08:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: An overview in the nutshell

message: And along those lines, why did he stop being prime minister? Term limits? --AW 19:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone? --AW 15:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was trying to smash the Hellenic Army. Parliament gave him special rights during this important period to defeat the enemy. After the victory, Mustafa Kemal gave all those special rights back to the parliament. Then with the proclaimation of the republic, he became the first president of the country. With respect, Deliogul 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What was his job between 1921-1923? 

message: The man died from cirrhosis of the liver, and is known for drinkining large amounts of rakı. What is the argument for claiming that he only enjoyed it at official dinners? Bertilvidet 16:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I sort of neutralized the statement, but I also found this about him from a scientific journal, that says his death was due to alcoholism -  --AW 17:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I concurr with your edit. I am not aware of anyone contesting that cirrhosis of the liver cuased by heavy drinking being his cause of death. Bertilvidet 17:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: His job was hard. To form a new country(a republic, a democracy, a secular state) from the ruins of a religiously oriented empire. So, drinking and smoking were all acceptable for his situation. Even I was smoking a lot while I was preparing to the university entrance exams. With respect, Deliogul 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I happen to agree. But it is not the aim of this article to judge if Atatürk did the right thing or not. Bertilvidet 17:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to say that we can mention his high use of alcohol and cigarettes in the article. At least in my opinion, it is just a fact. With respect, Deliogul 18:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rakı consumption