Talk:Lockheed bribery scandals

message: *(This discussion is copied from Talk:Lockheed Corporation, and is placed here to show why the article was de-merged, expanded, and moved to the currnt location. - BillCJ 02:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should make a good article, assuming we can find some verifiable sources. I found this source on the Netherlands Prince Bernhar's role in the scandal, but nothing else at the moment (haven't searched Google yet tho). - BillCJ 16:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Lockheed Bribery Scandal is also a redirect here, and possible alternate title. - BillCJ 16:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: F-104#International_service and Bernhard_of_Lippe-Biesterfeld#Scandals has already some written information about the scandal - perhaps that can be gathered into a starting article. --MoRsE 22:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I've been reading a couple of Corky Meyer's books about his experiences at Grumman as a test pilot, and he headed the Grumman team that was selling the F11F-1F Super Tiger to the countries that Lockheed bribed to by the F-104. He has some unique observances, but alot of it is his personal opinions, and not objectively useful beyond being used as colorful quotes. Meyer did state that he wans't allowed by Grumman Corp to use bribes in any way. But he has definitely piqued my interests in the topic. As for a title, how about Lockheed 1960s bribery scandal? - BillCJ 23:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Title works for me. A question: I remember that there was a scandal surrounding some bribery and the C-5 program...same one or is there more than one Lockheed bribery scandal? AKRadeckiSpeaketh 23:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure on the C-5 part. Most of the F-104 stuff happened in the late 50s/early 60s, right before the C-5 development began. That's probably something the research stage would reveal. - BillCJ 23:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have vague rememberances of it causing problems for some members of congress...but you're right, research! AKRadeckiSpeaketh 23:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks. What would you be commfortable doing? I haven't started any research yet, and good online sources may be hard to find because of the time period. Wikipedia doesn't have much in depth in the articles above, so this will pretty much have to be done from scratch. I'm not that good at writing text from scratch, esp from printed sources. I don't mind doing some online searching, and dumping text in a sanbox to be rewritten later, and I'm pretty good at formatting and editing. If writing's not your strong suit either, then we could split up some sources, work on those, check wach other's work, and then edit them together. I can set up a sandbox on my userspace, and then we can start finding sources, and discuss more on the sandbox's talk page. - BillCJ 02:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can write original text if it's distilled from sources. If we can find good sources I can write something, I have a book and a couple of websites already in mind. I like the sandbox idea. I suggest you do it and tell me here and/or in my talk where it is and I will look at it and try to develop it. It's a fascinating subject. --John 02:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: OK,it's at User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Lockheed 1960s bribery scandal. We can use a different title when we go ilive if we have a better one. - BillCJ 03:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Give me 24 hours or so. --John 03:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it took a bit more than 24 hours but I'm quite pleased with it! Thanks for the chance to write an article, I haven't done that for ages. --John 02:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lockheed Scandal 

message: There's an Italian section waiting to be written, I just ran out of steam. Anybody? If not I'll probably have a go over the next few days. --John 03:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italy 

message: While this article has a neutral tone it does miss out some important facts relating to the F-104 Starfighter, as it stands the reader would think that Lockheed profited from the sale of 900 (actually 916) individual aircraft to Germany. Only 136 aircraft were Lockheed built, the remainder were built via a consortium in Europe (with some parts from Canada) under license. The license was no doubt another source of income for Lockheed (which is not mentioned). Similarly in Japan, of the 220 aircraft only 23 were Lockheed built under the same arrangement. Whilst Prince Bernhard was apparently not an angel he did secure the production of 100+ Starfighters in his own country as that section suggests was his aim ($1.1 million was the price of one F-104 by coincidence). Italy is the same. Many F-104s were bought by US funds to supply other countries under the MAP programme so there was probably no need to bribe. There is a book which I have never seen which might have more detailed information: F-104 Story: "Kickback-Killer" (Diary of a starfighter). I don't know about the other aircraft types and I am not defending Lockheed's actions in any way. What I would like to do is add the production numbers (by company) to the country sections to let the reader decide. From my enquiries in Germany this is still a 'taboo' subject 45 years on. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 02:15, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points. However, we should try to find out the exact price breakdown for the Lockheed-built and license-built F-104s, so that we offer complete info. As to your comments regarding the German officer in an above section, I have no doubt that many good people sincerely felt that the F-104 was the best choice. The point of this article though is that it was not a level playing field. And while the F-104 may well have won all the competitions without Lockheed's bribes, Lockheed certainly was unwilling to find out! - BillCJ (talk) 03:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The prices are very similar with the European built aircraft apparently costing slightly more. The exact license arrangements and costs I don't know. I was thinking of starting an article which covered the 'deal of the century', German selection and procurement and European consortium production, it was quite a complicated major collaboration project. A job for a few rainy days! Off to work now, cheers. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Balance?

message: The section states that Lockheed paid Khashoggi $106M in commission, but it doesn't provide any evidence that the commissions were then used by Khashoggi to pay bribes to secure the purchase of Lockheed products (although it does seem likely). The Saudis bought C-130s and L-1011s from Lockheed, but they never bought the F-104. Mztourist (talk) 12:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saudi Arabia 

message: This article is a stub, and probably won't become more of a stub. Its content belongs in the articles for the Lockheed Corporation and Lockheed L-1011 TriStar. Willy Logan 05:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger