Talk:Catharism/Archive 3

message: I find it tremendously funny that we could've accumulated a page on the Cathars without ever once using or discussing the words 'cathartic' or 'catharsis'.  Anyone with a reliable sense of this want to add a little remark on it?  I may not be the appropriate expert on etymology, but I'll give it a shot if noone else does in a few days. --Penumbra 2k 17:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Inventive and spurious degrading false etymologies were a Christian rhetorical tradition that was well-established even before Jerome. So I'd always discounted this one, until I read Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie, Montaillou: The Promised Land of Error; "It was this essentially spiritual insistence on purity, in relation to a world totally evil and diabolical, which gave rise retrospectively to a probably false etymology of the word Cathar, which has been said to derive from a Greek word meaning 'pure'. In fact 'Cathar' comes from a German word the meaning of which has nothing to do with purity." (Introduction to the Englisah edition, p. viii). In the article I'd recommend quoting Ladurie, with his "probably", rather than taking any stand. --Wetman 23:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catharsis 

message: I've seen sections that compare different religions in some articles. The similarity between Hinduism and the beliefs of the Cathars is very evident in this article. Perhaps a comparative section should be added.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.32.246.162 (talk • contribs) .
I agree this similarity really struck me as well - might be worth someone with a more scholarly knowledge adding their thoughts on this. all the best, Anit
We will be providing that scholar to review and contribute to this article very soon. In theory there are and were commonalities with Hindu belief. On balance however, there was/is much more in held in common between Buddhism and Cathar Christianity in terms of theology, spirituality, life practice and world view. A section on Catharism and Eastern religions has merit. Agcweb (TALK)  1800, 25 May 2006 (UTC))
:Anyone can edit a wikipedia page, A "scholor", a doctor, Wonder Woman or Captain America all have the same weight. Like it was said before, no person has a claim to a link to this group, as it died out in the middle ages. Dominick (TALK) 00:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cathars and shared beliefs with Buddhism and Hinduism 

message: Since this Cathar biz was all over the Southwestern portion of what is now France, in a changing time when the 'Romans' were the last Model of civilization, learning of their beliefs would give us a clue to the family from whence Eleanor sprang.  
Thru I-net research, I have learned (and I know someone will correct me if they think this is wrong) that the Cathars believed in equality of sexes, reincarnation and practised birth control.  Also; no capital punishment, no extraordinary means to sustain life, no taking of life.  Also, the Mary Magdalene faction seems to be stuck in the middle of this somewhere.  Why else would they attack Beziers on her feast day?  
The troubadors/court of love add the concept of 'Technical Virginity' which could explain a great deal of the reputation of her whole family.
I do always try to fit all the pieces together like a puzzle, and am just trying to get the big picture here.
:Good luck! Don't quite see how the Romans come in: the Arabs were a much nearer and more visible model of civilization. On Mary Magdalene, no comment.
:Equality of the sexes: in some ways they were closer to it than others at the time, but they hadn't reached it. Birth control? That depends. Their views tended towards disapproval of sexual reproduction, in animals and humans, with various consequences one of which might be fewer children. Is that what you mean? Andrew Dalby 08:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Andrew is right. Also Roman = Occitan in this context. For more background on the above questions, take a look at this page and this page.                gcp(talk)16:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cathars, Troubadors  & Eleanor of Aquitaine, 

message: I took out "power to bind and loose", just added to the list of things that the consolamentum is, because I don't understand what "power to bind and loose" is supposed to mean here. If the editor wants to put it back and explain what it means, fine. Andrew Dalby 17:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The power to "bind and loose" on earth and in heaven is referred to in the NT. According to RC's it was given exclusively to Peter (and is now enjoyed by the Pope). According to others it was given to all the apostles (and is now enjoyed by all bishops). I don't know if the Cathars ever made the claim for themselves, but they have a form of "apostolic succession" that had been practiced by early Gnostic sects before the "orthodox" Church invented their own version of it in the fourth century. Nostick 19:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consolamentum 

message: I've added a link to a website dedicated to Antonin Gadal, a historian of the twentieth century who did a vast amount of exploration of the Cathar caves of the Ariege and had strong theories about the mysteries of Cathar faith. This was clearly a very interesting - and largely unknown - man. Worth a look. 
Its very interesting that the beginnings of Catharism in the Ariege region correspond to some of the most ancient megalithic sites in Europe. Gadal explored many caves in this region of the Pyrenees. Some people think that the Cathars could be traced back to the Essenes. Certainly according to Zoe Oldenbourg who wrote Massacre At Montsegur they saw themselves as heirs of the Primitive Church and thus connected to a tradition much older than the Catholic Church of Rome which persecuted them son. ThePeg  2006 (UTC)
This is very similar to what I have so far discovered.  I have  traced the Cathars back through the Paulicians and back further to the Antiochan Church.  Also I have discovered their connection with the Ebionites which  had a lineage to the Essenes.  The link you provided is tremendously interesting. Thank you.    CoWinn
CoWinn - in fact the Cathars trace their lineage back further than even the dawn of Christianity to the Persian Zoroaster, although they may well not have known or acknowledged this. The centreal dualism of Light vs Darkness and the role of Man in this battle was first conceived of as a cosmology by Zoroaster. We know from the Bible and Historical accounts that Judaism was influenced by and influenced Zoroastrianism (cf Book of Daniel and, historically, Cyrus' release of the Jews back to Israel) and in the New Testament this is tacitly acknowledged by the story of the Magi, Magi being a Persian word for Priest-King. Like Christianity Zoroastrianism has a concept of a Messiah who will come to restore the Light to the world. The Prophet Mani who was also Persian who came after Christ and Buddha was also a huge influence on the Cathars. He introduced some of the more ascetic ideas which became part of the Cathar Perfecti modus vivendi - vegetarianism, sexual abstinence and an end to procreation. The Zoroastrians didn't believe that Creation was from Darkness and Evil, as Mani and the Cathars did. They believed that the Light created everything and that this Creation was perfect. It was the attack of the Dark and thus the corruption of Creation which had to be fought. Mani made Zoroastrianism more austere. The Cathars adopted some of these beliefs which also linked with some of the ideas of the Essenes.
If one is a Christian one might find the idea that the Persian faith is at the root of one's belief hard to take. If one sees Christianity as the highest form the central Revelation of the Universe has taken one can be calm. As mankind develops, its understanding of the Truth evolves. The development of Christianity - or the kind of Christianity the Cathars were on to - was that the Divine Light could be incarnate in Man. If we'd based Christianity on that idea we might have got somewhere. Instead we turned that idea on its head and decided Man was inherently corrupt and couldn't live up to Christ in the least. Had we believed in the idea of the Divine Light in every man and woman - as all the Christian Mystics from Eckhardt to Hildegard von Bingen, Evelyn Underhiill tp Carl Jung did - then we might be living in a very different world. We haven't taken proper care of the message. ThePeg 11:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mmmmm. Not really sure about this link - seems a bit thin on hard fact and pretty heavy on POV. For the moment I just tidied it up. Does anyone else have any views ? Springald 10:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Antonin Gadal

message: Just a small point — a matter of taste, really:
The following first line of the Theology section struck me as somewhat heavy for a popular encyclopedia:
The Catharist concept of Jesus might be called docetistic — theologically speaking, it resembled modalistic monarchianism in the West and adoptionism in the East.
I'm reasonably well educated, but that meant nothing to me; and at that moment I didn't feel in the mood to go chasing links. It wouldn't have mattered if the next section explained these terms sytematically, but it seemed to veer into other terms of reference.--qp10qp 20:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm reasonably well educated on these issues, too, and I'm mystified as well.  Docetism was the belief that Christ did not actually have a human body or die on the cross, but only had the *appearance* (Gr.: dokesis) of a body.  Modalistic monarchianism, put forward by Sebellius and others, claimed that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three different modes of the same being, seen at different times; roughly, that God puts on three different faces at different times.  Adoptionism was the view that Jesus was adopted as the Christ when baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit "descended on Him as a dove."  These views appear to be incompatible to me, so I can't account for the synonymy in the article.  jrcagle 18:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, it does make things clearer.  On further reading, I agree that the Cathars were docetics of some sort.  This would, however, make it impossible for them to be modalists (I think).  Modalism was one of the early opponents of Gnostic docetism. jrcagle 22:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Accessibility.

message: Reading this page without much knowledge of the subject, I absorbed the opening statement in good faith:
"Catharism was a religious movement with dualistic and Gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc around the middle of the 12th century . . ."
Further down the page I was then jarred by the following:
"The first known Occitan Cathars appeared in Limousin between 1012 and 1020. Several were discovered and put to death at Toulouse in 1022."
Apart from the term "Occitan" coming at me out of the blue, the suggestion that there were Cathars in the area in the early eleventh century struck me as contradicting the opening statement of the article. --qp10qp 20:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems a fair point - as does the one above. I'll make the appropriate changes. Gcp 17:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: When did Catharism appear?

message: :In their quest to discredit the Cathars, the Catholic church successfully associated their name with sodomy. Cathars in Europe were called Bulgres (French Bougre, English Bugger) since many came from Bulgaria. Cathars were against procreation, so Catholics reasoned that they must prefer sodomy to other forms of sex, although there is no evidence that this accusation by the Catholic church was true.  The word bugger now refers to a sodomite and buggery to sodomy, and has now become a general expletive.
The statement is basically valid but, 1,  I don't think it could be proved that the "Catholic church" did this (rather than popular rumour in a highly religious society), 2, there is a sudden switch in the paragraph from medieval Europe to modern England (bugger is not a general expletive elsewhere, so far as I know!) I might edit this, if someone else doesn't. Andrew Dalby 08:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: bougre in French. The connection with Bulgar is a familiar one. --Wetman 13:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The quoted section has now disappeared again. Andrew Dalby 11:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Dalby, come to Australia. You hear the word all the time! reinthal 23:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New section

message: Is it just me or is the ritual suicide practiced by the Cathars almost unmentioned in the article? Lostcaesar 10:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You could usefully add something about the Endura, but do a bit of research first - there is no evidence of "ritual" suicide. Gcp 11:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suicide 

message: Shouldn't the yellow cross have some sort of description attached to it, like underneath it or something?
I am not exactly sure how to do this.
jptdrake 07:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yellow Cross 

message: I added the link to the Assembly of Good Christians  and also the link to the Apostolic Gnostic Church.  Both of these are Cathari. CW
:: I'm a little confused as to how external links should be handled.   A list of blogs on the Gnosticism page, some of which in my view were very well focused on the ancient Gnostic texts and research, though by modern people walking a gnostic path today, were deemed not appropriate by 999, I was directed to WP:EL external links page. SquirleyWurley 05:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wonder, in general, maybe these Gnostic, Cathar, and other pages, should just have a 'modern Cathars' or 'modern Gnostics' section with links to significant modern groups.  I certainly think the blog list on the Gnosticism page deserved to stay.  Now that it's gone, someone came in and added some groups in to an external links section of modern gnostics.  Instead of having a never-ending game of remove and add, remove and add, why not just have a section specifically for it, since there are modern people and groups who sympathize and consider themselves on the path? I could use your insight on the Talk:Gnosticism page, if you don't mind. SquirleyWurley 06:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Links 

message: Have cut the following text from the article. It all seems largely irrelevant but am pasting here for the author to clean-up and move to other pages or otherwise address.
reinthal 00:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languedoc cut 

message: What does 'pro-Cathar surrender mean'? ThePeg 18:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Uh?

message: This article makes too many incorrect or bold claims regarding theology and the "big bad Catholic Church," and seems to be rather biased.
You'll have to give your argument and cite examples. As you'll see from the above discussions this is a big issue! In terms of the "big bad Catholic Church" it does have to be said that the Church launched the Crusade and the Inquisition against the Cathars and not vice versa. Whatever one thinks of the merits or demerits of the two movements the violence and killing was undeniably started by the Church. I guess it depends on your POV whether this makes them "big & bad" or not. Defenders of the True Faith or Brutal Suppressors of the Right to Freedom of Speech, Thought and Worship? You decide. :-) ThePeg 17:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: Besides being brutally NPOV (which topic has been discussed in detail already), the last paragraph of the "Cathar" article (NOT the "Catharism" article), entitled "Modern-day Cathars and Catharism" is completely ridiculous.  There are no modern-day practitioners of Catharism in the western Pyrenees that can claim an unbroken family history of practice. The only modern-day Cathars are reconstructionists, such as the Assembly of Good Christians.  Either the author of this section is mistaken, or else is trying to convey that there is a group of modern-day Cathar restorationists holed up in the Pyrenees.  If the later is the case, please provided a citation.Narsil27 21:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Cathars

message: Substituted at 20:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment