Talk:John Cena/Archive 6

message: I've reviewed the article and decided to put it on hold at this time.  If you can address the concerns below within a week I will go ahead and  pass the article.  It's not a terrible article, but it needs a little work done to it to be a GA.  Let me know when you are done and I will review it again.
:GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#:
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
===Comments===
1a
*There are several spots where grammar and punctuation are a problem.  Get someone to help you copyedit the article. 
1b
*The article needs to be taken more "out of universe."  Events in wrestling should be clear that they are staged and not real life events. 
*The lead section should probably be expanded on also.  I could probably pass the article with this lead, but I know others would likely question it as being too brief. 
*There is also a little bit of problem with some of the jargon in the article.  Much of it is linked to definitions, but a few of the the wrestling terms are not, which would leave a non-fan unsure of what is being said.  (I hope)
*Article reads a lot more like a play by play script than an encyclopedia article.  (I hope)
2b
*It is likely to be disputed that Khali had not previously submitted to someone before.  The link does not substantiate this claim.  (Source added)
*It's possible that someone would dispute that Cena was the first person to pin Khali in the WWE, and there is no reference for this.  (Source added)
*I'm really concerned about the quality of the sources.  The article relies entirely too much on the Online World of Wrestling, Wrestling Information Archive (which borderlines on a smark site) and Pro Wrestling history.  I'm sure there are more reliable independent sources (newspapers, magazines, etc).  Additionally, for how little content there is in the article, there are a lot of sources.  This will definitely be an issue if it ever goes to FA Review.
3a
*It is broad, but I have concerns...see my thoughts below.
3b
*Article briefly mentions things with no detail leaving the reader to wonder what the importance of the point was.  See my thoughts below.
===Thoughts when reading article===
Where was Cena born (yes I know it is in the info box)?  Does he have any siblings?  Where did he grow up? Who are his parents?  
What is the character of "The Prototype?"  Or is it not a character and just a name?  When did Cena win the UPW Champtionship?   When did the WWE sign him?  How long was he at OVW?   Why is his appearance on Manhunt not included in his acting section?  Why would Cena "chase" Brock Lesner?  What happened with Team Angle at the Survivor Series (if it is notable enough to mention it should be notable enough to state what happened)?
When did Cene attack SmackDown! General Manager Kurt Angle? Why did he attack him? When did No Mercy take place (when Cena won the title back)?  What happened with the program Cene entered into with Christian after he came back to RAW on June 6?  And what year was this June 6 (yes I can figure it out by going back through the article)?  What "political games" was Cena supposed to play? 
The structure of the paragraph on the champion of champions at cyber Sunday needs re-done.  It is just difficult to read and follow what's going on without rereading it. 
Is there something that can be done with the "In Wreslting" section to clean it up some?  Maybe include more of it in the body of the article and/or put some of it in tables.  Take a look at the Konnan and Brian Adams (wrestler) articles and see if you get any ideas.  (see below)
I'm curious why the non-wrestling sections are burried under all the wrestling extras and title histories?  Wouldn't it be better to have them higher on the page?  (see below)
Can the section on his film be expanded at all?  (I added some box office info and a sentence detailing the plot, but most of the info can be found on the movie's own page)
 - T-75|talk|contribs 22:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info Nikki.  I wouldn't have failed it for GA based on those points, but it is good to know.  My experience with all the extra info is that it clutters an article and is better at the bottom (with as little info as possible) or in tables (at least that is what I've been told in reviews).  I actually quit reading an article when I come across the extra info when it is the article as it is in this case, so anything underneath it is not seen by me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one; but if that is what the style guidelines are right now...oh well. - T-75|talk|contribs 21:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA : On Hold 

message: Where was Cena born (yes I know it is in the info box)?  Does he have any siblings?  Where did he grow up? Who are his parents?  
What is the character of "The Prototype?"  Or is it not a character and just a name?  When did Cena win the UPW Champtionship?   When did the WWE sign him?  How long was he at OVW?   Why is his appearance on Manhunt not included in his acting section?  Why would Cena "chase" Brock Lesner?  What happened with Team Angle at the Survivor Series (if it is notable enough to mention it should be notable enough to state what happened)?
When did Cene attack SmackDown! General Manager Kurt Angle? Why did he attack him? When did No Mercy take place (when Cena won the title back)?  What happened with the program Cene entered into with Christian after he came back to RAW on June 6?  And what year was this June 6 (yes I can figure it out by going back through the article)?  What "political games" was Cena supposed to play? 
The structure of the paragraph on the champion of champions at cyber Sunday needs re-done.  It is just difficult to read and follow what's going on without rereading it. 
Is there something that can be done with the "In Wreslting" section to clean it up some?  Maybe include more of it in the body of the article and/or put some of it in tables.  Take a look at the Konnan and Brian Adams (wrestler) articles and see if you get any ideas.  (see below)
I'm curious why the non-wrestling sections are burried under all the wrestling extras and title histories?  Wouldn't it be better to have them higher on the page?  (see below)
Can the section on his film be expanded at all?  (I added some box office info and a sentence detailing the plot, but most of the info can be found on the movie's own page)
 - T-75|talk|contribs 22:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info Nikki.  I wouldn't have failed it for GA based on those points, but it is good to know.  My experience with all the extra info is that it clutters an article and is better at the bottom (with as little info as possible) or in tables (at least that is what I've been told in reviews).  I actually quit reading an article when I come across the extra info when it is the article as it is in this case, so anything underneath it is not seen by me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one; but if that is what the style guidelines are right now...oh well. - T-75|talk|contribs 21:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Thoughts when reading article

message: Do I reply to you here? I've never done this before?
=====The rewrite issues=====
I don't see a problem with much of the rewrite issues. I've already been toying with the idea of moving more of the "personal life" (which does mention his brothers, but no longer mentions his father and I don't know why) to the top of the article. I've never thought about it before, but I don't think I've ever heard Cena mention his mother before. That can all go in the "pre wrestling" section easily enough. 
=====sources=====
The sources are going to be our biggest problem. There simply aren't any other sources that will go as in depth as Online World of Wrestling, Pro Wrestling History, or Wrestling Information Archive. Newspapers and magazines (aside from the WWEs own magazines, and the various Apter mags, which would never in a million years pass as reliable sources) don't cover pro wrestling since it's not "real". The sources we use for matches are simply catalogues, verifiable by anyone willing to go back and check the tapes, of what happened on any given show with commentary is kept to a minimum or cut out altogether. 
«»bd(talk stalk) 23:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: The sources are going to be our biggest problem. There simply aren't any other sources that will go as in depth as Online World of Wrestling, Pro Wrestling History, or Wrestling Information Archive. Newspapers and magazines (aside from the WWEs own magazines, and the various Apter mags, which would never in a million years pass as reliable sources) don't cover pro wrestling since it's not "real". The sources we use for matches are simply catalogues, verifiable by anyone willing to go back and check the tapes, of what happened on any given show with commentary is kept to a minimum or cut out altogether. 
«»bd(talk stalk) 23:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: sources

message: The tables in Konnan and Brian Adams (wrestler) are against the WP:PW style guide agreed on a long time ago, which is why there are few articles that look like that. Other professional wrestling articles, such as CM Punk, Rena Mero, and Nora Greenwald should be used as examples in this case, as they have already passed the Good Article review (Adams' article has not). That is how the moves/songs/etc are organized in the previous good articles. Moreover, the personal life sections and information on other media are located below all the information about wrestling because the two are related, making it flow better to a reader. Otherwise, a reader would read about his pro wrestling career, his movies/songs/television career, then his wrestling moves, and then his personal life. Does that make sense (I'm not sure if I'm phrasing it clearly)? Nikki311 03:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info Nikki.  I wouldn't have failed it for GA based on those points, but it is good to know.  My experience with all the extra info is that it clutters an article and is better at the bottom (with as little info as possible) or in tables (at least that is what I've been told in reviews).  I actually quit reading an article when I come across the extra info when it is the article as it is in this case, so anything underneath it is not seen by me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one; but if that is what the style guidelines are right now...oh well. - T-75|talk|contribs 21:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues

message: Yes they are best friends through Randy Orotn's ex girlfriend and John Cena's fiance Felicia Alsbrooks they are scheduled to be married on October 16 and she is said to be 2 months preganat with his child, but supposely Randy Orton Still has feelings for his best friends fiance, even though engaged they have decided it was still okay to continue their lives and even date other people aside from the fact that they love each other  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.103.138.149 (talk) 06:46, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrestlescoop.com is not a reliable source. It can only be added if there is a reliable source to back up that info. Nikki311 21:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even with a reliable source that's really not notable.«»bd(talk stalk) 12:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? What about this one? I mean, I don't want to go against bd's word. --  ThinkBlue  (Hit BLUE) 22:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming that interview is legit, that makes it verifiable, and not notable. This is a Wikipedia article, not a Tiger Beat profile.«»bd(talk stalk) 01:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cena and Orton best friends? 

message: Hi. Now, I'm not just saying this myself, and I know that any such messages that are just POV questioning his ability will be deleted, but I can come up with several sources in which people (especially fans) have debated his wrestling ability continously, gotten angry at how long his push has lasted, etc. Now please, don't delete this message, because I know for a FACT that this isn't just MY opinion. I'm just wondering, would I be allowed to include these facts? Because I've heard rather a lot of them recently. Thank you. 81.145.241.230 13:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. A persons "wrestling ability" is, as you said, 100% POV. POV anything, unless it comes from legitimate critical sources and adds to the article (an actor's performance in a specific movie is universally panned, with cites coming from people like Roger Ebert and Leonard Maltin) isn't allowed in a wikipedia article.«»bd(talk stalk) 14:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm sure you can find no end of people connected to the business who share the opinion, but as it stands there's no definitive sources of criticism for the wrestling world. Unless you can come up with something that's not; bitter lower card/former workers (I should have that spot), people trying to score points with the internet community (I agree with the fans...), or the internet community themselved (Meltzer, Apter, etcetera) I don't see it getting in.«»bd(talk stalk) 00:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: And it's in the article. «»bd(talk stalk) 14:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Highly Debated, Sources To Back It Up 

message: at vengeance or the great american bash —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.240.51 (talk • contribs) 
Becuase they weren't really that important, if they turn into a long term feud then they may get a mention, as RKO is his next opponent I don't see that happening, if you want results just google "wrestling results" and follow a link. Darrenhusted 01:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To put it bluntly, no. Every "defense" isn't notable. In fact most of them aren't, simply because wrestling is not real. Also, please sign your comments with four tildes, like this~~~~.«»bd(talk stalk) 17:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Please sign your comments with four tildes. Significant events and feuds are mentioned. Just because you like Mick Foley doesn't make Foley showing up two weeks before a pay-per-view for his twice annual jobbing significant in Cena's career, and just because they made a bunch of vignettes to pretend the Bash match was anything more than pay-per-view with almost no build up doesn't make that worth mentioning either. «»bd(talk stalk) 20:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  no mention of his wins  

message: Incorrect staement I believe. The article states "Cena became the first in the WWE to beat The great Khali". He was definately the first to PIN the great khali, but The Undertaker beat him an a last man standing match in July 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaggernut (talk • contribs) 
:It doesn't say that and never did.«»bd(talk stalk) 12:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit confilct) No, he didn't. Undertaker fought Big Show in the Punjabi Prison match look here. Darrenhusted 23:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Did you read the article? Or the comments you're replying to? Cena pinning and submitting Khali is in the article, the commments above claimed that the article stated Cena was the first person in WWE to ever beat Khali period, which it didn't.«»bd(talk stalk) 23:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Undertaker first to beat Khali

message: The fact that Cena's father is and has been associated with the Professional Wrestling business for quite some time now needs to be included in this article.  At one point it was, and I'm not sure why it was removed...maybe it wasn't sourced, I don't know.  We need to find a good source and re-insert this information into the article.  "Johnny Fabulous" apparently redirects to "John Cena" also. --Naha|(talk) 22:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to put it into the personal life section, but it seemed tacked on. Especially since I don't know all the details. The Johnny Fabulous article was deleted and redirected here a while ago.«»bd(talk stalk) 13:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a good source for Johnny Fabulous information? If so, I might be able to figure out a way to integrate it into the personal life section better if I play around with it a bit. --Naha|(talk) 14:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Johnny Fabulous 

message: Can someone tell me the difference between a facelock and a sleeper? Because I have seen John Cena do both the STF and the STS as versions of his STFU. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt't a sleeper where one arm is wrapped around the opponent's neck? Isn't that what the STS entails? I also believe a facelock is the way Chris Benoit used to lock his opponents in the crossface, correct? Now, in that case, isn't the picture of John Cena doing the STFU on the page that has the STS on it a picture of him doing an STF? I do believe that his article should be edited to reflect that fact that he uses both. L2K 02:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think I've ever seen him use an STF. T F in STF stands for Facelock. A facelock looks like this. Note the placement of the arms high on the head, near/above the nose. Cena, however, rarely if ever places his above the neck (, , ) making it a sleeper.«»bd(talk stalk) 13:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Its true, its true." --Naha|(talk) 04:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  STFU 

message: dont you think that his current feud with Randy Orton should be mentioned somewhere  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.184.103.203 (talk) 02:39, August 22, 2007 (UTC) 
I was just looking at this article and was going to say the same thing. He is putting his WWE Championship on the line against the man who has inflicted 3 RKO's on him within 3 days!!! -- Yasmin
:It'll most likely be worth adding Sunday night/Monday morning. Any time sooner and it would have been nothing but week by week and future events.«»bd(talk stalk) 12:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its there now, complete with reference. --Naha|(talk) 04:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feud with Orton 

message: Why no mention of his first tag team partners with Rey Mysterio and Edge? It was in early of his career.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.138.137.5 (talk) 04:05, August 27, 2007 (UTC) 
*Because...... they weren't his partners? Oi. Mshake3 04:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And that's has nothing to do with John Cena. --  ThinkBlue  (Hit BLUE) 00:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Partners