Talk:Demographics of Hungary

message: Just look at the historical population chart of Hungary, it shows that by 1800 there were about 3 million population. consider the area occupied by Hungarians and the long history of it, its population size is really a small one, probably the smallest population size of any significant country in EU, by the time of 1800, Russians had a population of about 40 million and Ukrainian had 10 millions.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.117.230.34 (talk) 10:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting Figure 

message: The 53% - 39% percentages do not seem to be correct. Here it is written that the Romanians were at least 48% in the ceded area. Some statistics are also presented in  this article. We should include the 1940 Romanian estimation too (Iaaasi (talk) 09:11, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: True, We can use that source. We should present the Romanian estimations as well.Fakirbakir (talk) 10:13, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

text: I inserted this source to the page of Second Vienna Award. I have checked page of Northern Transylvania. It contains that source. 
*"Historian Keith Hitchins (Hitchins 1994) summarizes the situation created by the award: Far from settling matters, the Vienna Award had exacerbated relations between Rumania and Hungary. It did not solve the nationality problem by separating all Magyars from all Rumanians. Some 1,150,000 to 1,300,000 Rumanians, or 48 per cent to over 50 per cent of the population of the ceded territory, depending upon whose statistics are used, remained north of the new frontier, while about 500,000 Magyars (other Hungarian estimates go as high as 800,000, Rumanian as low as 363,000) continued to reside in the south."
Fakirbakir (talk) 10:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northern Transylvania 

message: Well, as most other "Demographics" articles, I think that this article should contain only data about current demographics of Hungary and that data about historical demographics of the Kingdom of Hungary should be moved to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hungary Opinions? PANONIAN 18:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Missed subject?

message: Ok, let discus this from the point of scientific objectivity. It is not disputed that this source mention that 400,000 Hungarians settled among 200,000 Slavs. The disputed issue is the question why this source is used as "the only truth" when numerous other sources are contradicting to this. For example, this source claims that "Hungarian language was spoken only by knights and nobility" in the early Kingdom of Hungary, while this source claims that the "Magyar genetic contribution was not enough to alter the population's predominant genetic similarity to its neighbors". This source claims that "very few of the ancient Magyar genes remain among modern Hungarians". These are valid academic references and there is no reason that they are ignored. Part of the article that speaks about time of Hungarian arrival to Central Europe should be rewritten to reflect more balanced approach that will reflect data from mentioned sources. PANONIAN 15:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the above concerns the time of the foundation of Hungary (895) therefore there is no contradiction between them and the original statement. You are taking the second source out of context, which talks about "Hungary came to rule over Walachia Bosnia and Serbia" Showing that the period that the source talks about is different, not to mention using extreme POV terms as "magyarization" in a 14th century context with no explanation or factual basis (a 19th century concept, such as nationalism, equally nonsense in the 14th century context). By usage of this term the source contradicts itself. Hungarian was widely spoken by the population this is why other population segments slowly assimilated to it (a completely different concept from magyarization). Finally modern genetical research findings should be included in genetics themed articles and have no direct relevance to historical topics. Not to mention that a population living in the Carpathian basin for over 1100 years would be surprising if they did not intermarry and mix with other population groups during that period. Hobartimus (talk) 11:04, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So? It is just your personal opinion. Do you have any evidence for such claims? We have here one academic source that say that "Hungarian language initially was spoken only by knights and nobility" and here we have another one which say that "very few of the ancient Magyar genes remain among modern Hungarians". It is quite evident that these sources referring to origin of modern Hungarians and that first one referring to the period of creation of the Principality of Hungary in Central Europe. Tell me, why you removed that info from the article? As a Serb, I am proud that my ancestors were not only Slavs, but also Illyrians and Sarmatians, so I do not understand why would you deny your own genetic origin? PANONIAN 13:59, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you continue like this you'll get blocked for sure. Just sayin. Referring to your last sentence of course. The evidence is already in the article, which contains the population data for Hungary based off of many sources. The first source does not refer to what you say. It is quote obvious too, talking about "knights and nobility", which are features of a kingdom, which Hungary was not at the time... The same sentence mentions "Hungary came to rule over Walachia Bosnia and Serbia" which is a sentence completely disconnected from the 895 and shows, which is also evident from the book title, that this is not a topic dealing with Hungarian history, it mentions all this in passing, jumping several hundred years within sentences. I am sorry but this content is just not suitable for this article. Hobartimus (talk) 14:24, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

text: (ec)Problems with the first source presented by PANONIAN, (Ethnic groups and population changes in twentieth-century Central-Eastern) p 266, p. 267; It's a coverage of about a thousand year's worth of history in less than 2 pages (from the 800s to 1867) And there a sentence is mentioned in passing "Initially Hungarian was only spoken by knights and nobility" First we don't know what the sentence is referring to, and seems completely illogical. Even PANONIAN admits that Hungarians arrived to Hungary at some point in time. And that they (the Hungarians were speaking Hungarian...) were these Hungarians all knights and nobles? Hardly possible. I already mentioned the nonsensical term magyarization used in that early context, these are all signs of problems that come with forced inaccuracies when someone covers 1000 years in 1.5 pages. Can we agree to discount this source? (also consider the fact that a lot of sources already in the article directly contradict this one in addition to the already mentioned problems). Hobartimus (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, the problem is that there are two opposite theories about ethnic composition of Principality of Hungary in the 9th-10th century. According to one theory (which is present by this source), that country had Hungarian majority (400,000 people) and Slavic minority (200,000 people). According to other sources (for example this one), Slavs were in majority and Hungarians were minority. User Hobartimus is trying to keep only first theory in article text and to remove mention of other theory. That is basic problem here. PANONIAN 15:28, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If both of the sources are relevant and reliable, what's wrong with stating something like, "In the 9th-10th century, the composition of Hungary's demographics was under dispute, some sources said X <reference> while others say Y <reference>. If both viewpoints are relevant and backed up by reliable sources, then a compromise is all that is needed. On Wikipedia, it's our role to report what reliable sources state on a subject. As long as you aren't overly presenting a minority viewpoint (see WP:UNDUE) then there should be no major issues with including both viewpoints. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 15:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

text: The problem is that PANONIAN's source does not talk about the ethnic composition, it talks about language used, and does not mention any numbers, or even state which century is it referring to? (only say 'initially' while at the same sentence, mentioning Hungary ruling Serbia, Walachia, Bosnia and Dalmatia, at the time, bringing up the question which territory should be accounted for here in which century? And then about language used, language is not always even relevant in the middle ages in terms of deciding demographic composition. For example someone speaking latin (language of the church at the time and all around common language) couldn't be Hungarian? I know of several counter-examples from the middle ages. Hobartimus (talk) 15:38, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the source mentioned earlier  (have to click page 266 to see the whole page). Hobartimus (talk) 15:42, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can see, it, the reference that actually quotes the dates and figures of populations is quite explicit. The estimated dates and population is in black and white on the page. The other references, as I've seen, don't actually list dates or figures. While this isn't a major issue, the reference does not clarify the dates period the population demographics was sampled. It looks quite vague to me. I'm not saying we can't incorporate the contents into the article, what I'm saying is that the first reference gives dated facts and figures, which the other references does not directly contradict, and seems a bit vague to me. Adding details of what the second source says, sure. But removing the info provided by the first source would be unwise, as it appears to me the info in the reference backs up the content in the article. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 15:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I am going to bed for the evening, I will review these discussions in the morning. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 15:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: POV presentation of early demographics

message: Don't understand why is this necessary?  I'm ready to discuss with you every issue that you have. Hope we can keep these personal notifications to a minimum in the future.  Hobartimus (talk) 15:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that against any rule here? I can have personal correspondence with other users here, can I? I do not understand why you track my edits and look with whom I talk on private pages? PANONIAN 16:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You can have personal correspondence, but then you could for example have the same correspondence (notification) towards user:Rovibroni and user:Fakirbakir as well. Because otherwise it would seem that we don't get enough diverse opinion... My suggestion was that we simply talk about it, in the future, I don't think this issue is so big like you make it out to be. We could have solved this between the two of us from the start. Hobartimus (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you examine again my comment addressed to used Iadrian yu, you will see that I just asked him for opinion about the issue - I did not asked him to "come here and vote" or something like that. :) It is my personal business whom I will ask for opinion about various subjects. And if we "could have solved this between the two of us" what that solution might be? Do you accept that data about 25,000 Hungarians is included or not? PANONIAN 16:46, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, if you think that I should ask some other users for opinion, you should remember what happened when I done that last time:  :))) PANONIAN 16:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Look it's your business who you ask for opinions but I don't want to get into a situation where I would need to ask others for opinions too. I do not want to do that. I'd rather we could talk about stuff, without any problems, that's all. And I realized that it already happened, so I wasn't talking about this time. But what happens in the future and asking you if you could avoid this type of stuff in the future or not. Hobartimus (talk) 17:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to ask for opinion whom ever you want. Why would I should have any problem with that? PANONIAN 17:07, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't understand

message: Well, Hobartimus, you objected that we do not have numbers. So, please see these additional sources that saying that only 25,000 Magyars crossed the Carpatians in the 9th century:
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
So, are you able to "defeat" validity of all these references or not? Due to all this, sentence in the article should say that, according to various sources, between 25,000 and 400,000 Magyars lived in the Principality of Hungary in the 9th-10th century. And in addition, we have now 5 sources with number of 25,000 and only one with number of 400,000, so the number of 25,000 looks like much stronger case here. :) PANONIAN 16:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See, this is something we can discuss, let's start with the first one. At your link  we can read the 600 000 number as well right below the 25 000 number. But I'm not against adding more estimates but we have to work out some things as well like where to add them in the article, but let's discuss the source a bit more, the source itself mentions the 25 000 number as "excessively low". In other words you made a big misrepresentation above, because a lot of your sources mention 25 000 warriors which doesn't actually contradict a total population of 125 000 (20% militarization like in that example) or 250 000 (10% militarization) or even the 400 000 (in that case only 6,25% would be warriors). What is more your first source talks about 5000 warriors only so all the rest of your sources heavily contradict it :). Not only did you bring a source but you brought many counters to it as well. So this is a very important point not to confuse "warriors" with total population and we shouldn't try to misrepresent the numbers. Hobartimus (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this source say "25,000 individuals", not warriors. But, two descriptions are not contradicting one to another. It was common that various early medieval peoples and tribes were composed only of warriors. Even recently, we had Spanish conquistadors who conquered Mexico and married with local women (that is how modern Mestizo people emanated). In fact, it would be quite unlikely that Magyar warriors who came to conquer an land had their women, children and old people in their company. They obviously married local Slavic woman, exactly like Spanish conquistadors. Also, number of 25,000 is not "excessively low" - it is one that could best fit into research results of modern geneticists who claiming that Hungarians are not genetially different from neighboring Slavic peoples. In fact, if number of 25,000 is wrong then entire modern genetic science is wrong too. PANONIAN 17:04, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: How about you read the own source that you link? THAT SOURCE describes the 25 000 number is "excessively low" it is a direct quote from there. Your absurd theories about a population having "only warriors", "like spanish conqustadors" is also directly contradicted and denied by the same source which puts the number of warriors at 5000 while the total at 25000 meaning an 1:5 ratio of warriors to total population. You should at the very least read the sources that you link because writing "not excessively low" is unacceptable when that is exactly what you have linked above. In this all the sources agree, this one states it outright and all the others bring at least five times the numbers (starting at 125 000 total - 25 000 warriors). Hobartimus (talk) 17:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

text: So? Then article description should say between 25,000 and 600,000. This is exactly confirmation that number of 400,000 is not an example of "generally accepted truth". PANONIAN 17:04, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The 25 000 number is contradicted by every other source thus far, and is described as "exceedingly low" by the source itself that it's in. That is the exact definition of a WP:FRINGE view, so I cannot accept that number as factual only in a sentence like, (this is just an example) "Some fringe theorists claimed that the total number of Hungarians were 25 000, however this is number is "exceedingly low" and is directly contradicted by accepted research putting the lowest realistic number for the total Hungarian population at 125 000" (5x the 25 000 warriors mentioned earlier). So yes I can accept it as a fringe view as described in the source (exceedingly low). But it cannot go into the article as factual information because it is not. Hobartimus (talk) 17:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

text: A lot of other data seems to be on page 21, But I can't get the thing to open up the whole page only bits and pieces. Page 21 seems to be where they have a collection of estimates about the size of the population. Other numbers there that I can see include 523 600, 400 000, 120 000, 750 000 , the 21th page is titled "Size of the Hungarian population at the time of the conquest", so these are all relevant numbers just can't see the whole page because of the prieview system. Hobartimus (talk) 17:28, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional sources

message: Jews:
1880=624,826
1890=707,961
1900=831,162
1910=911,227
By Language:
1880:
362,399 Hungarian or 58.0%, 216,190 German or 34.6%, 46,237 Other or 7.4%,
1890:
450,971 Hungarian or 63.7%, 233,627 German or 33.0%, 23,363 Other or 3.3%
1900:
594,281 Hungarian or 71.5%, 208,622 German or 25.1%, 28,259 Other or 3.4%
1910:
700,734 Hungarian or 76.9%, 196,825 German or 21.6%, 13,668 Other or 1.5%
The trend is interesting as it shows the increased Magyarization, especially after 1890 with regard to the German-speaking Jewish population being reduced at the expense of the Hungarian-speaking Jewish population.  These figures could also be helpful in establishing just how many 'ethnic Hungarians' there were in the pre-WWI census data. Prussia1231 (talk) 18:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Hungarian and German speaking Jews in Hungary 1880-1910 

message: Andrew L. Simon (a "board-certified urologist practicing in Brick, NJ") and A. Pidhainy  (who is him?) look like unreliable authors. If there are no counter arguments, I will remove their works from the article. 178.41.146.129 (talk) 09:26, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Andrew L. Simon: "The author, a professor of engineering for 30 years, reviews the status of America's undergraduate education using statistical data and numerous references".. But you are right he isn't a historian or a demographer. Fakirbakir (talk) 10:17, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

text: A. Pidhainy is a historian.    Fakirbakir (talk) 10:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:   Fakirbakir, Pidhainy's work has been published in 1966 and the links you have provided are not about the medieval Kingdom of Hungary, but about bolshevism (published in 1974 and 1978). This is not a reliable source.--Ditinili (talk) 12:56, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I just provided a source which proved that Pidhainy is a historian. In this topic, studies from historians (and demographers) are regarded as reliable sources. (Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history)) Fakirbakir (talk) 10:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  "In this topic" we follow standard rules and recommendations how to evaluate reliability. The referenced work has been published 50 years ago by the author who seems not to be an expert in the area. His qualification in the area of medieval Hungary and demographics really cannot be documented by 2 works about bolshevism. Note: the second one  is his thesis/dissertation published in 1978, but the referenced work is from 1966 (12 years earlier). I am not sure if he had any qualification in 1966. Maybe yes, maybe no - I have never heard about him and I cannot find any info. Ditinili (talk) 15:06, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

text: Not so fast, I am going to find out who he is. Fakirbakir (talk) 10:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

text: Stephen Sisa (1918-2012) had a diverse life story. It seems he was a writer and editor at various publications.  Fakirbakir (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately this is not enough. He is not a scholar, so I will remove his book from here. 88.80.225.28 (talk) 11:31, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable authors 

message: # Other opinions. It does not fairly represent all significant viewpoints. It must be clear also for Hungarian editors, that many non-Hungarian historians can hardly agree with such data as are presented here for middle ages. These views are completely ignored and there is not any mention about existing objections.
# Sources. Let's look on percents for year 1490. One-half of references are completely outdated, 40-80 years old publications: 1971, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1941 (!!!), 1974. If you exclude these dinosaurs and include also sources as it is recommeded above, it looks very differently. 
# Neutrality. Theories like "According to the demographers, about 80 percent of the population was made up of Hungarians before the Battle of Mohács, however the Hungarian ethnic group became a minority in its own country" sound more like mid-war propaganda than serious analysis. After this complaint, the author remained silent about a minority policy in the 19th century.
# Fringe theories. Data like "90% of Hungarians in 1490" can be presented only as a some kind of curiosity and with an explanation. Where did all other nationalities live? Where are Germans, Slovaks, Romanians and Ruthenians, etc? Are they in remaining 10%?--Ditinili (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Fakirbakir, I have specific objections (e.g. missing opposite views) not "seemless accusations". Of course, it is unfortunate to cite work from 1941, because such old publication obviously cannot reflect any later research.Ditinili (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to contribute in the article to present "opposite" views. Fakirbakir (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for your recommendation, I will.Ditinili (talk) 16:37, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: ZZARZY223,
still disagree why we should arbitrarily grab just to census data...(KIENGIR (talk) 01:09, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Census 

message: KIENGIR, 
the loss of population prodouced by the Ottoman–Hungarian wars and the ethnic changes are still debated by historians, and calling the claims of Ottoman Warfare 1500–1700 by Rhoads Murphey "unrelated speculation about demographics", while accepting the ones of this source ONE LAND — TWO NATIONS TRANSYLVANIA AND THE THEORY OF DACO-ROMAN-RUMANIAN CONTINUITY as valid is unfair, considering that the second source doesn't mention any numerical estimation at all about the population before and after those wars, giving very vague explanations about the sudden increase of ethnic Romanians in Transylvania ("The cause of this was mainly the immigration of peasants from Muntenia and Moldavia, the Rumanian countries, where they lived in squalor, being exploited bythe Turks as well as by their own lords."- if the population of Transylvania was mainly Hungarian before the Battle of Mohacs, that would mean that a massive emigration hit both Wallachia and Moldova for almost 3 centuries - which is not mentioned by any source, unlike that of the Great Migrations of the Serbs, for example - for Romanians to be just 40% of the population in the 1700s as claimed by the source, and then 60% as reported by official censuses from the 19th century, and then suddenly a great increase in percentage of Hungarians as reported by all the censuses from 1850 to 1910), and other affirmations that are not accepted by all historians regarding the Daco-Roman continuity. Also I would like to know the "problematic parts" of Murphey's work. (ZZARZY223 (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not about acceptance or not, the whole addition is an unrelated, unnecessary speculation, this section is about something else, do not compare it it to anything other. Does not give really anything to the issue, subject about Romanians, etc., hence inclusion is not supported.(KIENGIR (talk) 13:30, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Murphey in his work explains how the population of Transylvania didn't have a huge growth during the Ottoman occupation, which was needed if Romanians overtook numerically the Hungarian population (since, as claimed by Murphey, the pre existing population wasn't as much affected, because the losses regarded mainly the military rather than the general population), and the inclusion of that part is related to the claiming, reported in this section, that Romanians overnumbered the ethnic Hungarians after the Battle of Mohacs, in a very short time. Why should be Murphey's claimings considered a speculation, while the claiming that the the "Hungarian ethnic group in Transylvania was in decent majority before Battle of Mohács and only lost its relative majority by the 17th century" is not? (ZZARZY223 (talk) 13:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What you are speculating here seems OR, you are trying to assert and use two different source's content and contradict them. Here in this section, if both point of view is represented about population statistics, it's enough, this section should not serve of endless speculations of when who was the majority or not. Btw., population may not change just by military casualties, and also other nations's would be also part of this equation regarding the Ottoman wars, this is out of scope. Hence no consensus for this addition, different estimations are already present.(KIENGIR (talk) 14:06, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ottoman Warfare 1500–1700, Rhoads Murphey, 1999 

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