Talk:HIV/AIDS denialism/Archive 4

message: Ok, I found the RFC, and have looked at this page with the eyes of a scientist with a strong biological background. I am open to alternatives and comments to any theory (like to do that myself, it is often needed). I have read two different versions with a pure logical mind and my remarks are the folowing:
* The text in general is poorly written
* The text contains a lot of activism
* Most is written as opinions, this is an encyclopedia, not a forum. Every claim, especially when people disagree with the main point-of-view, needs to be appropriatly cited.
* I have seen claims that are at least 10 years old. In the meanwhile, a lot of research has been done, and it should be replaced by more recent claims. For example: About 350 people in 1993-1995 who singed a letter from The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis. First of all, many are not scientists, second of all, it was 1993-1995, how many do still have the same opinion.
* Finally, much what is said can be condensed significantly, whch would enhance the change of getting the message about, and that is that there is some criticism to the main stream idea of the cause of AIDS.
--KimvdLinde 02:47, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My suggestion is to move pretty much all text to a talk subpage, and let people edited that. When sections are of sufficient quality, they can be moved back to the main page. I am not going t edit anything, but I am available in a letter stage to read again and see if the piece meets the standards that need to be set for a place like wikipedia. --KimvdLinde 02:58, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have made my final cut-downs to content and created a copy of the article in AIDS reappraisal/sandbox Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is a good idea. I just cleaned the history section, let me know what you think --KimvdLinde 15:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  additional cleaning  - I removed the quote about  "the package insert of Revtrovir" ... the language quoted was from a package insert used in the early 1990s, and no longer accurate.  Additionally, the current, much lower doses of Revtrovir in use currently have significantly less side effects then the huge doses used in the initial research.  --163.191.194.235 22:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor quality 

message: Nrets claims there is a "clean-up process" on 2/6/06. I have seen nothing but removal of dissident evidence, quotes and references. And there have been NO changes in the last several days. So I will pause 24 hours to watch for "clean-up." If there is none, I will continue my campaign to have a page that represents dissident positions accurately. I FAVOR a clean-up...And I'm waiting for a legitimate one. Sgactorny 15:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was waiting for your input on the  cuts before moving on to the history section. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Now that you've given your input - apparently, by reverting the entirety of the changes I've made, please let me request that you make no changes to the article without first gaining consensus for them on talk. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean-up Process

message: Hello. A request was made on WP:3O for a third opinion on this page. The opinion is regarding the issue:  insertion of edit regarding Wikipedia edits into article.   My 3rd opinion is that Said edit should be reverted....on this topic, Wikipedia is a non issue.      Thank you for flying delta. ⇒ SWATJester  Ready  Aim  Fire! 16:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3rd opinion 

message: I archived pretty much everything from before February, and the first days of February. --KimvdLinde 23:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 3 

message: Is Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease really considered an infectious disease? It's not spread person-to-person. | Mr. Darcy talk 13:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about AIDS, what is the link with CDJ? KimvdLinde 15:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know what the article is about. CJD is mentioned as an infectious disease in the text of the article: There are many well-known infectious diseases which develop slowly and spread slowly, such as Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease or Hepatitis C. | Mr. Darcy talk 00:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I see. I looked at the CJD article, which indicates that one can be infected Creutzfeldt-Jakob_Disease#Transmission, although not by direct human-human contact, but by eating infected material. Sounds like this is more a issue of how can infections occur. As such, the sentence seems fine with me. KimvdLinde 01:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The distinction is between "infectious disease" and "contagious disease". Infectious diseases are those caused by infectious organisms, while "contagious diseases" are infectious diseases communicable by contact. CJD is certainly an infectious disease. - Nunh-huh 04:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you're saying now - I didn't realize prions were considered infectious agents. I'm glad I asked instead of changing the sentence. | Mr. Darcy talk 13:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, but in the wild, crazy, world of post-modern biomedicine, even wasscaly little proteins can be infectious disease-causing agents!! Revolver 10:17, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The very same post-modern world where viruses can cause cancers, entire chromosomes can be silenced, and neurons can regenerate. God forbid that our understanding of basic biological processes has evolved! Run for the hills! These scientists are crazy! Nrets 14:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: VIRUSES DON'T CAUSE CANCER!!! except for a few very rare cases, already discovered decades ago. I can find the other two things you cite believable. But prions -- they're smaller than viruses, and we already know viruses don't cause cancer. 64.185.56.232 21:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Except viruses are believed to cause cancer, and not just very rare cases. Visit HPV for an example that has been widely reported in broadcast PSAs in the US lately. DMacks 06:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Believing does not make it so. You can't point to one example of flawed science does not justify another. But, that's typical orthodox reasoning -- justify one wrong idea by pointing to another. And I find it almost laughable that that you use PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENTS as your "reference" for viruses causing cancer...geez, you ever heard of Nature or Science??? 216.167.142.99 21:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: CJD mention

message: I've made some changes to this section. The allegation that debate has not taken place is misleading. For example a search of PubMed for "Duesberg HIV" turns up 72 results. Given the number of dissident websites around I think you'd have great difficulty finding an AIDS specialist who's unaware of the dissident point of view. Trezatium 19:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, but Ithink the discussin is about the magnitude of the debate, and the dissidenst argue it should be much more because they are right. KimvdLinde 20:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you may be surprised how many "AIDS specialists" *aren't* aware of it. Not to mention just "HIV positive" patients. And the issue is really over the larger scientific community, as well. "AIDS specialists" are more than likely completely disinclined to consider alternatives, anyway. Most everyone else I run into seems (to me) to have a vague memory or passing acquaintance, in my experience, e.g. "Oh, doesn't this have something to do with the president of South Africa??", etc. Revolver 10:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Alleged suppression of debate" 

message: "Another relationship that is sometimes cited is that AIDS is highly correlated with drug use in Western countries, while it is associated with malnutrition and poor living conditions in Africa." This is a very silly sentence. AIDS is correlated with drug use all over the world, including in many non-Western countries such as Vietnam and Russia. If heroin suddenly became popular in Gabarone then I predict the correlation would apply there as well. Also it is simply not true that AIDS is associated with malnutrition and poor living conditions in Africa; members of the middle class are often among the worst affected. I intend to remove this sentence unless anyone can suggest an improvement. Trezatium 20:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying that they do not use that argument? Because that is where it is all about (Not that I agree with them). KimvdLinde 20:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrasing of the sentence suggests there is a genuine, indisputed association between AIDS and malnutrition/poor living conditions. Such a relationship is, to the best of my knowledge, unsupported by the evidence. Trezatium 20:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. So, it should be rewritten such that it makes clear that the mainstream does not think there is is evidence for it. KimvdLinde 20:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that rephrasing would be helpful. The dissident case is put across very well in the preceding sentences of the paragraph, which make valid points about genuine epidemiological differences between sub-Saharan Africa and the West (except the bit about "exclusive AIDS-defining diseases", which could do with amending). The sentence in question is superfluous. Trezatium 21:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your change may be a slight improvement but I still think the sentence should be removed. You can't claim that "AIDS in Africa is a result of malnutrition and poor living conditions" implies "a non-infectious cause of AIDS". This is circular logic. Trezatium 21:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have actually heard this claim be made by some dissidents. KimvdLinde 01:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: How is it circular??? If AIDS diseases are associated with malnutrition and poor living conditions in Africa, and with drug abuse in North America, this is strongly incompatible with an infectious cause. You may doubt the premises, but the reasoning is not circular. Revolver 10:23, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I only meant that the particular phrasing used in the article resulted in circular logic, not that the argument in general was circular. Perhaps "circular logic" was the wrong phrase to use; what I meant was "tautologous logic". It claimed that "AIDS in Africa is a result of malnutrition and poor living conditions" implies "a non-infectious cause of AIDS" If it had said that "AIDS in Africa is associated with malnutrition and poor living conditions" implies "a non-infectious cause of AIDS" then I'd have no objections on grounds of flawed reasoning. However, I would object that the association with malnutrition and poor living conditions is a matter of contention, which is why I rephrased this sentence - see revision history. Trezatium 17:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Sounds good to me! KimvdLinde 18:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bogus, you people arn't interested in accuracy, you are merely propagating an agenda. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.160.192.42 (talk • contribs).
"Furthermore, the high incidence of AIDS and HIV in developing nations is not inconsistent with infectious disease status at all; rather, poverty could explain a lack of education about HIV transmission and the subsequent increased rates of infection." I've three problems with this sentence. Firstly, the "at all" seems a bit POV. Secondly, mainstream scientists believe there are many other reasons why poor people may be more vulnerable to HIV infection, such as greater likelihood of engaging in prostitution, less access to condoms, greater prevalence of untreated STDs, etc. Thirdly, as I've already said, the poorest people are not always the worst affected (e.g. rates of HIV and AIDS in Botswana far exceed those in Niger, though the latter is much poorer), so the link is not straightforward, according to the mainstream POV. Trezatium 19:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AIDS in Africa 

message: One of the changes I've made is to remove the description of Medical Hypotheses as a peer-reviewed journal, which was a bit misleading. Papadopulos-Eleopulos has had some articles on AIDS (fewer than a dozen) published in peer-reviewed journals, the first of which appears to be this one from 1989. Trezatium 20:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: The References section contains a lot of useful, relevant articles. However, this list seems almost entirely disconnected from the rest of the article (for example, there are several references concerning animal models, which aren't mentioned once in the main text). A number of these references also appear in the NIAID "Evidence" and "Relationship" documents, so there doesn't seem much point in having them all listed here as well. What's more, the references cited within the text are inconsistent - some correspond to items in the References list, while others are direct external links. I think we need a consistent system and probably a much shorter list of references, containing only articles directly related to the main text. Trezatium 20:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Reference section was complete and exact before the article was hacksawed and reduced in size without any regard for the reference section. This section does need to be cleaned up and references quoted throughout the article. --Bob 20:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm starting work on an "Impact" section, which will mention Lauritsen by name. I hope that helps. Trezatium 18:48, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I've fixed the problem. Trezatium 16:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Revolver added a credit to AIDSWiki, but I don't think this is justified. He cited one sentence about Casper Schmidt, which is hardly sufficient to merit a credit. In any case, the sentence in question was originally placed in this article by Revolver back in July 2003, a long time before he created the AIDSWiki. Trezatium 18:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Credit for specific quotes, and so can be added as inline references using the footnote system. IAnd if they originate from other sources, those should be mentioned. Kim van der Linde at venus 17:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, I'm okay with that. 64.185.56.232 21:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need to credit AIDSWiki? 

message: The Pseudoscience cat has now several time been added and removed. I think it should not be on the page. Not conform the main stream is not the same as pseudoscience, and some of the discussion is definately taken place within the scientific community. So I think we should remove it from that category. Kim van der Linde at venus 18:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no serious scientific debate about this at all. Where did you get that idea from? Jefffire 18:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is some debate, although minimal. Does that make it pseudoscience? Kim van der Linde at venus 18:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally when the worlds top scientific institutions and the World Health Organisation disagree with you it's a pretty good indication. Jefffire 18:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, actually not. That is a good indication for the consensus, not for whether there is debate or not. If consensus by was a reason not to discuss things, new discoveries would not be made. Kim van der Linde at venus 18:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are confused as to what I meant. There is absolutely no serious scientific debate at all on this issue. What "debate" there is is the preserve of quacks and kooks. The article does not need to pander to their sensibilities by not describing it as pseudoscience. Jefffire 18:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You see what I'm getting at, Kim??? 64.185.56.232 21:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm still undecided on this issue. As I noted above, most definitions of pseudoscience require deviation from the scientific method (the OED says, "a pretended or spurious science; a collection of beliefs mistakenly regarded as based on scientific method"). This may apply to many dissident arguments, but not all of them. After all, Duesberg has had quite a few of his AIDS papers published in peer-reviewed journals (though not recently). Trezatium 19:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it has very much become a pseudoscience. It is clear that the evidence is against it and it proponents have become wackier. However I do agree that "junk" or "pathological" science might be better, but they do not exist as categories. As a result pseudoscience serves as a very adaquate category. Jefffire 19:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the case for its inclusion in the category of pseudoscience has just been made. Trezatium quoted the definition of pseudoscience from the Oxford English Dictionary - a collection of beliefs mistakenly regarded as based on scientific method. AIDS dissident theories fall into this category. --Bob 20:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dissident scientists argue that the orthodoxy fulfills this criterion.  Do you even know what the Dissident arguments ARE? DissidenceIsConscience 19:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, Conscience, why are you wasting your time at this hole in the ground?? Come to AIDS Wiki. 64.185.56.232 21:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, become their second editor! - Nunh-huh 06:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, let me rephrase: I take great personal offence at that comment. 216.167.142.99 21:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudoscience 

message: I've merged these sections to accommodate the changes made by Knut-Inge. Trezatium 17:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this change makes sense, since the Perth Group's isolation arguments relate to Koch's second postulate (while Duesberg challenges postulates one, three and four). Trezatium 20:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging of "Existence" section with "Koch's Postulates" 

message: OK I'm back, and I've removed the new section about the "Concord" Study. For one thing, I don't entirely trust the opinion of someone who doesn't know how to spell the name correctly. In addition, this article cannot contain every detailed argument by either side of the debate; nor should it attempt to. Rather the article should stick to very concise summaries of the main arguments, with references and external links pointing to more information. Hundreds of articles have been written about Concorde, and it is far from the only study of AZT monotherapy (for example see here). If we start trying to include every relevant bit of information then this article will rapidly become massive and unwieldy. DissidenceIsConscience claims this article misrepresents dissident viewpoints. If that is the case then he/she should put things right. But in doing so he/she should stay within the word limit of the current article and not add lengthy new paragraphs. Trezatium 18:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concorde Study 

message: I've written a draft for the first part of a section to be called "Influence of AIDS reappraisal" or something similar. I've put it on a subpage so people can make their own edits or comments. Please note this is only a first draft. I'm aware that this is a very sensitive topic, but I hope people will contribute constructively. What I've written already is quite long and I don't think it should be made much longer, unless I've omitted something really important (which is quite possible). One of the sentences contains some blanks that I plan to fill in as soon I locate the relevant reference (which I know exists). I can supply references for the rest of the content as well. If people think this section is a good idea then I'll have a go at writing the rest of it at some point, unless others get there first. Note that this "Influence" section is not intended to replace the "AIDS dissident community" section or the proposed "Mainstream response" section, which would probably come afterwards. Trezatium 22:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, this is the first time I've created a subpage so if I've made a mistake then please correct. Thanks. Trezatium 22:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the details of the survey I mentioned. The researchers (Hutchinson, Begley, Clark, Boyett, Jardine and Kellerman) were all employees of the CDC, so their survey does have some credibility. As far as I know it's not available online, but I hope people will trust that I've reported it accurately. Trezatium 21:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have now added a link to the abstract online. Trezatium 12:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Influence" section 

message: In light of the discussion above, I wouldn't object to the addition of a subsection called "Alleged scientific misconduct" or something similar, as part of the "Challenges" section, provided it is kept very brief and summarises both points of view. It does seem that some (though perhaps not all) dissidents believe such allegations comprise a significant part of the AIDS reappraisal argument. Trezatium 21:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged scientific misconduct 

message: I suggest that we work towards moving all of the material in the "Brief history" into an expanded "AIDS dissident community" section and the new "Impact" and "Responses" sections. The structure of the article would then (eventually) be:
# The AIDS dissident community
# Challenges
# Impact beyond the scientific community
# Responses from mainstream science
# See also
# References
# External links
Trezatium 22:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of History section 

message: i added two videos to the see also section, but they where removed  with this comment:
 
:Remvoing discuession forum and propaganda videos. Please keep it at around 8 links for each side)
I dont know about the 8 links per side rule... but the videos are relevant since they are a exelent representation of the AIDS reappraisal movement, one of them being hailed as their best work. I do not view it as a good faith action to label them as "propaganda videos", when they are videos about this subject, under the section of this subjects proponents. I will re-add them. --Striver 11:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not the place to pimp poorly-made videos/another wiki without alot of content
The videos include long interviews with the most prominent proponents of this theoury, the quality is high, including computer special effects, and it raises most of the important questions of this movement. The motivation for removing the videos is clearly not correct. --Striver 22:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I am persuaded by your arguements and will not remove them.  --mboverload@ 23:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, a pleasure to co-edit with you.--Striver 23:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vidoe

message: I do not think that the to http://www.harpers.org/OutOfControl.html is a good one, and definately is not one that fulfills the criteria of WP:RS. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 03:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it more than fulfills the spirit of WP:RS (which is a guideline, not policy, in any case). Harper's is a highly respected journal. And the newest cite I put in also supports the article's contention (and there's more). I think the proliferation of  over this article is just meant to discredit the views of the reappraisers by implying, bizarrely, that the views do not exist; they are easily googleable. IronDuke 04:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the fact tags are there because most of it is unsourced, and as far as I know, wikipedia has a policy that information should be verifiable, hence the need to reliable sources, especially in controversial article as this one. Just information added to an article does not fullfill the requirement of verifiability, which has resulted in the tag at the top of the page as well as the citation needed tags. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I count about forty references/footnotes. I haven't looked at the majority of them, but I'll be about as surprised as I can be if they don't support the article's contentions. Remember:  this is not an article about whether, for example, HIV does or does not cause AIDS. It's an article about whether some scientists think it does or does not. Easily verified. IronDuke 15:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it will be not to hard. Would be nice if this article would become nicely sourced all over. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harper's Magazine: Out of Control 

message: "I'm not commenting on if this should even be here or not."
:"Even be here or not"??? What is this, damned if we do, damned if we don't??? If I don't include something like this, you'll accuse us of making accusations without evidence or citation, but when we DO include hard evidence, you remark that it's unclear "if this should even be here or not." Give me a ****ing break. 198.59.188.232 03:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lang Archive link 

message: See Talk:HIV_test#Criticisms
:(I've removed the copy of the HIV test discussion. Otherwise every contributor to it would have to keep copying their comments from one talk page to the other. Trezatium 17:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms of HIV tests

message: These articles show tha AZT label with skull and bones
:of course, those who bother to read it will discover that that's not the drug label. - Nunh-huh 05:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are wrong, sir. It is the standard symbol of chemical hazard, and just that same symbol (just the same) appears on the labels of AZT made for research, not for human use.Randroide 08:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, no, I am not wrong, it's not the drug label. And misrepresenting it as the drug label isn't going to persuade anyone. Many substances used as drugs are appropriately characterized as toxic, in the quantities used in a laboratory, which is the label pictured; but I suppose simply saying that wouldn't be as sensational as pretending that a skull and crossbones appears on medication bottles. - Nunh-huh 08:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nunh-huh, you know as well as I do that the dosages for the laboratory quantities labelled with skull and crossbones are less than those given to patients. 198.59.188.232 15:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... laboratory quantities don't have dosages. "It has a skull and crossbones, it's a bad substance" is a specious argument. I'm surprised you'd want to make it. - Nunh-huh 17:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: This is ludicrous. Almost any drug will have a toxic label when supplied for research use. Even ibuprofen. This just shows that it is possible to overdose with these substances. In the US, substance is defined as toxic if its LD50 is less than 50 mg/kg .  The LD50 of AZT is 3084 mg/kg , which means that it is not even near the threshold for toxicity.  The typical adult dose of AZT is 600 mg/day.  Which would mean that this dose would be acutely toxic to an adult weighing about 0.5 lb. Or that an adult weighing 160 lbs would need to take 372 times the normal daily dose to suffer from acute toxicity. When talking about toxicity of AZT, the relevant measure is the long-term toxicity which causes the side effects, which is why AZT is rarely used anymore. But to go ahead and make a statemnt that the AZT drug label says it is toxic and has a skull and crossbones is misleading. Nrets 19:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not making any statement. That would be "original research". Peter Duesberg made that statement, and he is an AIDS reappraiser. If you want to source a published counterargument, go ahead. Your explanation about doses is not good enough, because that would be... "original research".Randroide 12:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Its not original research, this is just reading the drug labels properly. The clinical insert in AZT given to patients does not have the skull and crossbones. Nrets 13:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AZT skull and bones