Talk:Italian beef

message: If you would like to resolve the dispute over Italian Beef then you will have to be civil, and willing to compromise. Otherwise this issue will not resolve itself.
As for the tags I put in the section, please don't remove them. Wikipedia is not the place for your original research, but for research from cited sources. Also, the article showed regional bias. How is someone from the UK or Japan supposed to know what the Tri Taylor neighborhood is, or many of the other things they wouldn't understand.
And congratulation on spending a couple minutes using google to find my full name. Now figure out my middle name.
If you would like to improve wikipedia, please act civil, and try to reach a compromise instead of flaming someone who's also trying to help wikipedia.Reub2000 19:58, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  If you would like to resolve the dispute 

message: Please see Wikipedia:Requests for mediation for the requested meditation. Please cooperate. Reub2000 20:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation Requested 

message: I would read Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Lowercase_second_and_subsequent_words as suggesting this article be moved to Italian beef or, perhaps better, Italian beef sandwich.  But it's making me hungry, so I'll go eat. Septentrionalis 15:37, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I currently reside in the Chicago area, and I cannot recall it ever being named on any menu as an "italian beef sandwich". "Italian Beef" seems to be the universally accepted nomenclature for the exact item in question. When I first moved here, I did find that I was mentally inserting "sandwich" to stabalize my sanity, but I have since stopped that silly behavior. The logo at http://www.alsbeef.com/ shows typical usage. It's kinda like "Philly cheese steak". People don't normally call them "Philly Cheese steak sandwiches". The capitalisation, however, is still debatable. I also agree that the lowercase "beef" is probably more appropriate.Bkofford 01:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved and seconded. I will move it; if no one fiddles with the redirect, it can always be moved back if sentiment develops that it should stay at Italian Beef with a B. Septentrionalis 14:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of article 

message: Recent edits by  makes a lot of claims, with nothing to back them up. Since the content of this article has been highly controversial as to what's fact, I would appreciate it if you showed references for the facts in your edit. Reub2000 06:09, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Reub!  What info needs back up?  You could call Scala's or inquire at any hotdog stand or so-called "famed" beef stand. But the best beef places make their own.  The lazy hotdog stands buy it pre-made from Scala or Vienna.  Take a look at of few of the new links for back-up.  Most of that prior stuff on the article didn't have any back-up.  And there was a whole paragraph about the sandwich dying out?  Not ture, and that needed to be changed. I think Portillo's is opening in So. CA. Thanks.Larsoner 18:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, thought a little bit of the old stuff was a little bit of bs. Glad that much of it was removed. The version by 65.182.172.* showed the sandwich coming from blacks settled on the south side, while your version says that it came from Italian-American immigrants. Which one is it?
* I think 65.182.172.* was referring to South Side Italian-American communites (maybe Armour Square, and in the old days: Roseland), not the Black Belt.  Recall that in the early 20th Century, most of the South Side was White.Larsoner 16:06, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Also, "sweet" vs. "hot", or the "combo" (Italian beef with sausage added).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.20.71 (talk) 03:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References for new content? 

message: I don't have a source for this in mind, so feel free to verify as you wish.  But the story I heard growing up in Chicago was that Italian beef came about as a way to use beef that wasn't always of the best quality.  If you were poor, you heavily seasoned roast beef to mask the flavor of meat that wasn't exactly Grade A.  You also cooked it thoroughly - notice that the meat in an Italian beef is never pink, like it is in a typical roast beef sandwich.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.20.71 (talk) 03:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of Italian Beef 

message: I added Fort Lauderdale to the list of places you can get an Italian Beef sandwich. There are two beef places in Fort Lauderdale, and at least two more in the area. Chegitz (talk) 17:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cities Where You Can Get an Italian Beef 

message: I absolutely agree.  If I had never enjoyed an Italian Beef, this picture--which looks like it was about to be eaten by a painter who had placed it down on top of a Visqueen drop cloth that is laying across a toilet bowl--would guarantee that I would never even try one. HuskyHuskie (talk) 04:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did restore the image for now: it is an image of a real Italian Beef served at Portillo's, with the original wrapping around it ! This is a sure stop for me whenever I pass in Chicago. LHOON (talk) 19:22, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No one here has questioned the veracity of the picture.  The question is to the appropriateness of the picture.  If some took a photo of a plate of spaghetti floating on top of the water in a toilet bowl, I could recognize it as spaghetti without wanting it to be the image displayed in spaghetti.  Sorry, but a better picture is needed, and I'm not the only one who thinks so.  HuskyHuskie (talk) 03:21, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Visqueen you mention here is what Portillo's wraps their IB in, and other vendors use similar stuff (Don't know the exact brand of the wrap though). You could provide a nice picture of the IB served on a plate, with some accessories, etc. - but this is not how sandwiches are usually served! LHOON (talk) 12:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I know what the wrap is--half of the Italian beefs served in Chicago come the same way.  But to the uninitiated, without some context, it looks bizarre ("Why is that sandwich laying on a sheet of plastic on top of a porcelain stand?", wonders the sadly uninitiated.)  If it was in the same wrap, but taken from a ways back, so you saw it on a table, in its basket or on its plate, it would be better.  But it looks like it was staged by some plumber. HuskyHuskie (talk) 12:58, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the visqueen, and it does look better indeed now! LHOON (talk) 13:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Look here: , see, I registered my approval before you changed the article.  Good job! HuskyHuskie (talk) 13:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to eat that sandwich!!! HuskyHuskie (talk) 13:17, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  There needs to be a better picture 

message: That are about essentially the same thing. Steak sandwich, Cheesesteak, French dip sandwich. BillyTFried (talk) 04:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously the words of someone who has never had an Italian beef. HuskyHuskie (talk) 03:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion at Talk:Steak sandwich was extensive and closed over a year ago. Removing merge suggestion. HuskyHuskie (talk) 00:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should be merged with the other articles 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Dear Wikipedia Editors,
Italian BeefAl's Beef has hired me to submit the following request for your consideration.
The infobox currently includes a picture of “Buona Chicago’s Original Italian Beef.” Why are we giving free publicity to one company (Buona's) over all the others that have long histories with this world-famous sandwich?
For comparison, neither Cheesesteak nor Submarine sandwich feature a branded sandwich in their infoboxes. Instead, both the image and caption in those infoboxes are generic.
Can we therefore change the caption for the lead image in Italian beef from this:
 Buona Chicago's Original Italian Beef
to something neutral, like this:
 Italian beef sandwich
Thank you for your consideration.
Signed,
BlueRoses13 (talk) 18:53, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, @Spintendo! BlueRoses13 (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this Wikipedia page effectively doing P.R. for Buona's? 

message: Spintendo  19:15, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, @Spintendo! BlueRoses13 (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply 5-OCT-2023

message: Dear Wikipedia Editors,
Al's Beef has hired me to submit the following requests for your consideration:
=== 1. French Bread ===
The infobox currently says the "main ingredients" of an Italian-beef sandwich are "Roast beef, Italian-style roll."
"Italian-style roll" is inaccurate. According to Eater (“The Italian Beef Sandwich at Al's in Chicago,” 2014) — note: Eater is owned by Vox Media, which Wikipedia considers to be a "generally reliable" publication — the sandwich "is piled high upon French bread" (emphasis added). The author of this article is Eater's restaurant editor.
Another article in Eater (“Iconic Chicago Bakery Gonnella, Provider of Italian Beef Buns, Halts Fresh Bread Deliveries,” 2020) confirms that "local sandwich companies including Al's Beef [have] used Gonnella’s French bread for its Italian beef delights."
Finally, an article in Bon Appetit (“The 8 Best Italian Beef Sandwiches in Chicago,” 2023) says this (try not to get hungry while reading :): "A classic Italian beef is composed of slivers of slow-cooked, lean-cut beef on gravy-soaked French bread."
Would it therefore be possible to change “Italian-style roll” to “French bread”?
: Non-controversial as the article lead already said French bread. I think the Bon Appetit article you've linked is the best reference to use as it is more clear they are talking about the sandwich in general, not the sandwich from particular restaurants. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: That reference just says that Al's in particular cooks it at 425, not that it's a widely-used temperature. More importantly, it's not clear to me that the exact temperature matters. Other articles like cheesesteak don't bother detailing the exact temperature the meat is cooked at. It looks like this was added in Special:Permalink/634982403 to WP:COATRACK about the wastefulness or inefficiency of this method, which is an unnecessary tangent. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

text: I agree that this section had a lot of puffery. In fact, the entire section needed a lot of work and I've gone and rewritten it. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Already done Issue already noticed and fixed in my rewrite of the section. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Not done: In the context of the history of the sandwich, I don't see it particularly necessary to go into detail about the co-founders of Mr. Beef. They aren't claiming to have invented the sandwich or anything. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  5 COI Tweaks 

message: The infobox currently says the "main ingredients" of an Italian-beef sandwich are "Roast beef, Italian-style roll."
"Italian-style roll" is inaccurate. According to Eater (“The Italian Beef Sandwich at Al's in Chicago,” 2014) — note: Eater is owned by Vox Media, which Wikipedia considers to be a "generally reliable" publication — the sandwich "is piled high upon French bread" (emphasis added). The author of this article is Eater's restaurant editor.
Another article in Eater (“Iconic Chicago Bakery Gonnella, Provider of Italian Beef Buns, Halts Fresh Bread Deliveries,” 2020) confirms that "local sandwich companies including Al's Beef [have] used Gonnella’s French bread for its Italian beef delights."
Finally, an article in Bon Appetit (“The 8 Best Italian Beef Sandwiches in Chicago,” 2023) says this (try not to get hungry while reading :): "A classic Italian beef is composed of slivers of slow-cooked, lean-cut beef on gravy-soaked French bread."
Would it therefore be possible to change “Italian-style roll” to “French bread”?
: Non-controversial as the article lead already said French bread. I think the Bon Appetit article you've linked is the best reference to use as it is more clear they are talking about the sandwich in general, not the sandwich from particular restaurants. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  1. French Bread 

message: In the "preparation" section, the page currently says, “The meat is roasted at ≤ 350 °F (177 °C).”
This is inaccurate. The correct temperature, according to 10News (“The Italian beef: A century-old sandwich that stands the test of time,” 2023), is 425°F (218 °C). Here's the pertinent part of this article:
“After cooking for 3.5 hours at 425 degrees, the steaming roast beef is already scrumptious.”
By the way, you may not know (I didn't) that 10News has its own Wikipedia page.
: Not done: That reference just says that Al's in particular cooks it at 425, not that it's a widely-used temperature. More importantly, it's not clear to me that the exact temperature matters. Other articles like cheesesteak don't bother detailing the exact temperature the meat is cooked at. It looks like this was added in Special:Permalink/634982403 to WP:COATRACK about the wastefulness or inefficiency of this method, which is an unnecessary tangent. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  2. Temperature 

message: In the "origins" section, the page currently says that Pasquale Scala and his associates "perfect[ed] Chicago's original Italian beef sandwich."
This phrase seems to violate WP:NPOV; "original Italian beef" is a marketing tagline, not a factual description — especially since claims about who invented the sandwich are so disputed; the page currently says, "The exact origin is unknown." Indeed, this tagline comes from the restaurant Buona, whose "signature dish" is "The Original Chicago Italian Beef"; see the homepage of Buona.com. In other words: This line is puffery, not history.
What's more, the “perfection” claim is sourced to an article written by a contributor to HuffPost in 2009. As https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources points out, HuffPost "articles before 2012 are less reliable and should be treated with more caution."
Can we therefore remove the "perfecting Chicago’s original Italian beef sandwich" part of the sentence?
: I agree that this section had a lot of puffery. In fact, the entire section needed a lot of work and I've gone and rewritten it. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  3. Buona 

message: In the "origins" section, the following sentence has a “citation needed” flag:
 Other Italian beef purveyors likewise set up shop in the 1940s, many obtaining their beef from Scala Packing Company of Chicago.
Here’s a citation, along with a footnote: As the Chicago Tribune reported in 2022, “Scala would go on to found the Scala Packing Company, which sold Italian beef to numerous restaurants.”
: Already done Issue already noticed and fixed in my rewrite of the section. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  4. Scala Packing Company 

message: In the "origins" section, the page currently says:
 Mr. Beef on Orleans co-founders Carl Buonavolanto Jr. and Tony ("Uncle Junior" to the Buonavolantos) Ozzauto each set up shop.
The source for this claim is a broken link. Here's the updated link (and footnote).
: Not done: In the context of the history of the sandwich, I don't see it particularly necessary to go into detail about the co-founders of Mr. Beef. They aren't claiming to have invented the sandwich or anything. Mokadoshi (talk) 07:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  5. Broken Link