Talk:American Cream Draft

message: What is the source for the information that says American Creams are sometimes genetically palomino? As far as I can see, all of the sources are giving information on what palomino is, rather than relating it specifically to the American Cream breed. I have yet to find sources stating that they can be palomino, and in fact have found one (reliable, but a general breed book) that says they are definitely not palomino or cremello (link here), while another specifically on horse genetics says that they are only found in champagne (link here). Sponenberg (link here) says that they are not homozygous for the champagne allele, but then goes on to say that when they don't have the allele they're genetically chestnut (sorrel), not palomino, and says specifically that this is not associated with the cream gene. So, what's your source? Dana boomer (talk) 12:22, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not what I meant to say, I meant to say that cream may exist in some horses in addition to champagne or instead of champagne, at least from the way I was reading their breed standard about "dark-skinned" mares.  But I'll do some digging and double-check sources, and maybe email Countercanter (who did the champagne gene article) to see if I'm totally wrong (which, though rare as you know (LOL), IS possible! (grin))  and I will admit that I'm probably edging into OR territory.  Nonetheless, Champagne is a dominant (double-checked UCD just now), so it doesn't have to be homozygous to affect the coat color.  Palomino and gold champagne are both based on a chestnut coat, producing cream color via different dilution genes.   But champagne has distinct features separate from cream or pearl genes, thus if the registry permits solid dark-skinned horses absent the lighter mottled skin and/or allows adult horses with blue eyes, then they are tacitly admitting that there are probably cream genes in some horses.  Which, I agree, might be hard to prove unless someone DNA tested for it.  But long story short, I think the only way to get a blue-eyed adult cream colored horse is to throw in the cream gene, champagnes apparently don't mature with blue eyes.  So while Old Granny might have been completely champagne, it's not impossible that something with the cream gene got into the pile during the process of crossbreeding; any of the Spanish-originated horse breeds could have tossed in any of the dilutions.  I'll sit tight until I have time to verify this and agree to toss it if I can't.  Montanabw(talk) 02:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But as far as I know, there aren't any blue-eyed adult horses. Did I miss something? Everything I found said that some of the foals had blue eyes, but that in adults hazel or amber were the only ones allowed into the registry. And per Sponenberg, the dark skinned horses are genetically chestnut. However, I agree that it's quite possible that there was another dilute gene tossed in there at some point - we know for sure that there were black Percherons and chestnut Belgians in the original mix and the studbook is still open to other draft blood as long as the resulting foals meet color guidelines. Also, per the Int'l Champagne Horse Registry, the theory is that all champagne horses descended from one genetically mutated Saddlebred mare whose genes slowly spread throughout the country (and many of the other American breeds), which might be interesting to add into this article. However, back on the cream gene topic, until we have a RS that says the cream gene is present in the ACD, I don't think we can add it in here, especially since we do have reliable sources that say specifically that there is no cream gene present. But, go look at your sources and talk to CC - timeline doesn't really matter - the stuff can stay commented until we get it figured out. Dana boomer (talk) 02:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm. Fascinating about the Saddlebred.  ACDs are pretty light and lively, so there must be more than draft blood in there.  I agree that I'd best find better sources if I want to push cream --  I think what jumped out at me was the "dark-skinned mares" thing mostly because it is a single cream dilute that's dark-skinned.  (and I may have initially missed the word "foal" with "blue eyes")  I'm OK keeping it hidden if I can't find anything.  Of course, keep in mind that gold-champagne horses are also "genetically chestnut" -- as a base coat color-- so you mean the "dark-skinned" ACDs are always chestnuts?  (Which makes sense, as two heterozygous champagnes would statistically produce chestnuts 25% of the time) Montanabw(talk) 03:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what Sponenberg says, at least, and as you say, it would make sense. There are other breeds (Haflingers, for one example) that are always chestnut - the Haflingers just don't have the champagne gene mixed in that will give them the cream color. With their open stud book policy and almost obsessive focus on that diluted color I would find it slightly hard to believe that a cream gene or two hasn't crept in, but maybe that's just me... Guess we should just call up UCDavis and ask them to DNA test all of the ACDs and write us up a little study on their color genetics :) Anyways, let me know if you find anything, I'm quite interested to see the results of any recent color testing that has been done on the breed. Dana boomer (talk) 02:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose if we called UCD it would still be OR until the peer-reviewed paper came out ;-P   To take another example, that's the limbo that a lot of the seal brown stuff is in.  Apparently a test, sold through a private lab, but the guy hasn't published, so it's a bit dubious.  Sigh... but those photos of the ACDs look dark-eyed to me, but then hard to say given the quality of the images... Montanabw(talk) 06:10, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Palomino coloring

message: Found an interesting page on a farm site here:   http://www.americancreamdrafthorses.com/breed_info.htm  the writer says two interesting things:  1) "...a cream mare with dark skin and light mane and tail will be accepted for foundation stock. "  Now, I agree that a farm site might be playing fast and loose with lingo (just as that one writer from the champagne site might be jumping the gun to claim Champagne is an incomplete dominant) but in my book a cream horse with a dark skin is a palomino!  ;-)  But even more interesting is 2) "On Recommendation of D. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, PHD. Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine and Chair of Technical Panel, American Livestock Breeds Conservancy, appendixing of foals with cream breeding too dark to be considered cream is being done."  I'm reading this to wonder if it's possible to find Sponenberg's 2009 update of his genetics text...or at least, if someone's going to make a phone call, Sponenberg is the guru here.  (Isn't he also the rare breeds guru?)   Montanabw(talk) 06:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I read this too, but my reading was that "cream" in both of these contexts refers to "American Cream", not "cream gene". From what I have seen, breeders refer to the breed as "cream" and the color as "cream" despite them actually being "gold champagne". (Easier to say probably!). There are references in other sources to Cream/cream mares with dark skin, but most of them use a capital "C" so it's more obvious they're refering to the breed. It was Sponenberg that recommended the appendixing of dark-skinned horses, but from all of the other sources I'm 99% sure that he's refering to chestnut with no dilutant horses of American Cream breeding, not ACD horses with the cream gene. I don't have access to his 2009 text - does CC, do you know? Dana boomer (talk) 11:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Brochure uses lower case "c," though I'll grant that it's ambiguous.  Maybe this is one where someone has to take a deep breath and call Sponenberg...! (you want to??)  I shot off an email to CC today, she may reply here or via email, I'll let you know!  Montanabw(talk) 23:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I sent off an e-mail to the president of the breed association. It's not exactly Sponenberg, but I'm a little intimidated by just his name :) If you want to call him, go ahead :) I figured I would wait a couple of days to see if I got a reply from Frank Tremel (the president), and if not I'd find someone else to talk to. Dana boomer (talk) 17:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me, though breed associations have their own problems with not having standards up to date with genetic reality.  (The Arabian association still registers "roan" horses, even though Arabians don't come in true roan...sigh).  Montanabw(talk) 18:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I find the history of this breed to be rife with misinformation. The ACD is NOT the only draft horse created in the Americas, not by a long shot. American White Drafts, American Sugarbush Harlequin Drafts, North American Spotted Drafts, Canadian Horses etc are all American Draft horse breeds. The ACD registry keeps perpetuating the myth that the American Cream Draft is the ONLY draft in North America and it isn't true. It hurts the other breeds, but also calls into question everything else the ACD group says, as they perpetuate this lie. The ACD is NOT a rare breed. They have a renewable resource on breeding stock as they allow Belgians and even grades to be used as breeding stock, as long as the resulting foal is champagne, Rose Hill Lincoln is one such ACD stallion. They have forms on their website where you can sign up your mare or stallion to produce ACD babies. I personally know of several fully papered ACD horses that have unknown parentage and full breeding rights. According to the Livestock Conservancy group this allowance of outside breeding stock means they are not considered rare and they are actually a composite breed, like Appaloosas, Quarter Horses, Paints, Aztecas etc. While doing pedigree research on ACDs I found none that actually trace to the supposed founding mare, Old Granny. There is a HUGE gap in verifiable pedigrees from the 60s back. In fact there seems to have been a period when almost no champagnes were produced and the blue eyed cremellos were the popular breed representatives. These are the ones shown in the 80s/90s photos of the Williamsburg teams. In speaking with Dr. Gus Cothran about how draft horses cluster it's very clear that the current ACDs cluster with Belgians, and even the old lines ( back to the 60s) do too. There is no DNA marker for ACDs, as they are a young breed, and their main identifier is a color gene, not a phenotype gene. I realize the ACD registry helps control the wikipedia page, but the information is incorrect. They are not the only draft breed created in the USA. Allowing that statement to stand means that any other American Draft breed wanting to create a page on Wikipedia is immediately put on the defensive. The intro to this breed's page needs to reflect the fact they are AN American draft breed, not THE American draft breed. American White Drafts have been around since the 60s, which is the same time period that the ACDs have any verifiable records, American Sugarbush Harlequin Drafts have been around since the early 90s, North American Spotted Drafts have been around since 1995. Canadian Horses, which once came in Draft and were prevalent in Maine, Massachusetts and Vermont have been here since the 1700s. Apphistorian (talk) 07:40, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources and gurus 

message: Does anyone know what breeds contributed to the founding stock?  I'd like to know, and don't see it mentioned anywhere in the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thefox226G (talk • contribs) 22:32, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As it says in the History section, Shires, Belgians and Percherons were all present in the breed's early history. Dana boomer (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: American Draft Creams genetically cluster with Belgians, per Dr. Gus Cothran. However, due to the use of grades and any horse that shows champagne their genetic pool is now more diverse, as there are champagne Vanners that have been added in too. It's not a historic occurrence, it is happening right now. I have to review these horses' papers when they apply for ASHDA Improvement stock. Apphistorian (talk) 17:50, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foundation Breeds 

message: * Lead:
** "The only other color found in the breed is chestnut, and the cream color produced by the champagne gene working on the chestnut base coat is known as "gold champagne"." - I can't make heads or tails of this - I'm sure that most non-horsepeople would have similar issues.
***Played with this a bit, let me know if I made it better or worse. - DB
* Characteristics:
** Dislike the wiktionary links to convex and concave - think they don't add anything of value - I really dislike the habit of linking to reasonably common words on wiktionary just because we can. (I suspect you didnt' add the links)
***I actually probably did add the links. At one point I had a reviewer (on a different article) as for links to concave/convex, so I started putting them in. However, I've removed them now, and will leave them out until someone complains :) - DB
** "Purebred American Cream foals that are too dark to be accepted into the main breed registry may be recorded into an appendix registry." what's too dark?
***I'm not really sure. I think it's basically a color darker than what the registry considers "dark cream" (maybe medium/dark palomino-type coloring or true chestnut?), but none of my sources state exactly what "too dark" is. Suggestions? - DB
** "The appendix will also accept half-cream horses crossed with other draft bloodlines if they meet certain requirements..." "half-cream" implies that they are one half cream-colored and one half some other color...
***Reworded...don't know if I made it better.
** "As of 2003, scientists have not found the breed to carry the cream gene, even though breeders refer to the desired color as "cream"." - I think you mean "As of 2003, scientists have not found the gene that produces the cream color, even though breeders refer to the desired color as "cream". but this is still confusing.
***Nope, scientists know what gene causes the color, and in this breed it's the champagne gene. In other breeds, a similar color is produced by the cream gene (a totally different gene), and there has been some confusion as to which one this breed carries. So far, all genetic testing has shown they only carry the champagne gene and not the cream gene. I talked with Dr. Sponenberg (the expert on the genetics in this breed) in early 2011 and he said that as of that point they had still only found champagne in the breed. Don't know how I can make this more readable, but I think that the info should be included. The only color present in this breed is chestnut, and the only modifying gene is champagne, making all horses either true chestnut or gold champagne. However, since the registry refers to the color rather anachronistically as "cream", it's all a bit confusing. - DB
** Can we move more of the "genetics" from the first part of characteristics into the actual genetics part? Stick with the pure visual characteristics in the characteristics, and leave the genetic issues to the genetics. Also, the bit about JEB is a poor fit in "Characteristics" ... should go somewhere else, maybe it's own subheading after genetics?
***Rearranged the section a bit, see what you think. - DB
* Breed history -
** Watch the side-by-side linking - such as "bay grade mare" that occurs throughout this section. It's definitely frowned on, and is especially confusing when you use it for something that will be confusing to non-horsepeople (such as the "grade mare" in the above example)
***I reworded a bit. - DB
** "However, stallions standing for public stud service in Iowa were required to be registered with the Iowa Department of Agriculture, and this agency only registered horses of recognized breeds." Suggest changing the second registered to "recognized" or something similar.
***Done. - DB
** I don't get why "As Silver Lace was not registered with any breed registry, his owners created a breeding syndicate, and mare owners who bought shares in the "Silver Lace Horse Company" could breed their mares to him" would get around the problem of there not being a registry?
***Because, as the previous sentence says, for stallions to be offered at public stud service they had to be registered. If you create a breeding syndicate and have people buy shares of the company, then they each "own" part of any stallions owned by the syndicate and so the stallion is not standing at public stud - he is a private stud used only by his "owners". Rather clever, I think. However, I'm really not sure how to make this more clear. Thoughts? - DB
** "...and with Rierson's death in 1957, numbers began to decline." I think you mean "...and with Rierson's death in 1957, Cream Draft numbers began to decline." the way it is currently worded it implies that Rierson's death was responsible for the decline in ALL draft horses.
***Done. - DB
** "By the late 1950s only 200 American Creams had been registered, produced by only 41 breeders."  Is this 200 over the whole history of the registry? Or just in the 1950s? Or what? Without clear context this is a meaningless number.
***Fixed. - DB
** When did the registry go inactive exactly?
***I don't know - none of the sources say. Sometime between Rierson's death in 1957 and the 1970s when some people who had kept the breed alive began to call for rejuvenating the registry. Thoughts? - DB
* 1990's:
** "The Creams are no more similar to the Belgian than they are to Suffolks, Percherons or Haflingers." Do NOT like the linking in this quote. Better to take out the second sentence of this quote and provide the links outside it.
***Done. - DB
** Need a citation for the quote in the last paragraph - about the Williamsburg horses.
***I thought maybe I could get away with having it one sentence later, but I guess not :) Fixed. - DB
: Hope this helps. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you very much. I have a few questions above - hopefully you can help to make things a bit clearer for people who haven't been steeped in the source material... Dana boomer (talk) 18:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  As asked... 

message: Hi
Just googled this breed. Here’s why. 
A friend of mine adopted a draft mare. They had no idea the mare was pregnant 
They did A DNA test when the filly was born and found out it was an American Cream Draft. 
A friend of these people took the filly and moved her to another farm. 
This woman was recently trampled by the 8 month old filly, breaking multiple ribs, suffered a punctured lung and is currently on a ventilator. 
In addition to this, the woman has cancer. 
From what I understand I’m not certain if the filly was ever imprinted or handled all that much. 
I’ve been a professional horse trainer my entire adult life doing lessons, sales, training, fox hunting and have competed in Eventing up to Intermediate CCI ** level. I’ve worked on a breeding farm as well. 
These people have come to me for help. 
I’m not familiar with this breed but in my career I had a niche in retraining “naughty” horses. 
I don’t know if I can help. Any suggestions or thoughts from those of you familiar with this breed?
Thanks,
Ellen 71.234.244.218 (talk) 21:31, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trying to help a friend with ACD filly