Talk:Brahma Kumaris/Archive 9

message: In the interests of making this a "nice" article to be involved with I am proposing we archive the talk with the exception of the above "Edits?" post. Although a lot of the threads are live they have become huge and are full of civility and other issues.
We can restart any important threads as required. Let me know if you have any views otherwise I will perform the operation tomorrow.
Regards Bksimonb 15:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for asking, I'd say go for it Simon. Best, Avyakt7 18:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK I've made the archive in the absence of any objections. I copied the end part of the thread on mediumship but left the first part only available in the archive due to WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL issues with it. I moved some posts in this "Talk Archive Proposal" up to the "spirit possession" thread since that is what they were discussing. Best regards Bksimonb 15:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk Archive proposal 

message: "According to a 2004 study, only 18% of BKWSU followers felt that the movement was effective in raising its voice against atrocities against women[33]."
If there is no objections I propose to delete this statement from the article tomorrow because it is not relevant. The BKWSU are not a campaigning lobbyist or activist organisation which probably explains the low result of the survey.
Regards Bksimonb 19:23, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree that this line seemed a little random to me but I figured it did no harm in the article.  It's kind of a 'so what' line.  --Renee 23:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaningless statistic? 

message: Thanks for fixing the "fard"!  --Renee 15:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem :-) I think they meant "food" rather than "fare". Bksimonb 15:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miscellaneous 

message: Faithinhumanity I have reverted your latest edits because they are adding serious undue weight to the first paragraph and are clearly not NPOV. There are three active editors who are in agreement over what the first paragraph should be and, just as importantly, should not be. If you feel strongly enough otherwise then please raise an Rfc to get more input but please do not just overrule the consensus that was reached here and the consensus that WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV represent. Also the Puttick reference was found to be not entirely accurate where cited nor used in context. You're cooperation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 18:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Posted logged out while blocked. Reported. Block extended. Bksimonb 12:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Consensus

message: Though a citation is probably easier to read than a quote I notice that it now makes Raja Yoga sound like some spooky, ritualistic pointless exercise. Which it isn't. If the change doesn't make an improvement can we please revert back to the quotation until we can come up with something more descriptive.
* Before
"Members are encouraged to purify their minds by the practise of Raja Yoga. This can entail sitting tranquilly, in front of a screen which Dada Lehkraj's picture projected, then making a number of "affirmations," regarding the eternal nature of the soul (atma), the original purity of one's nature, and the nature of God (paramatmā Shiva). The Brahma Kumaris believe that practice of Raja Yoga enables spiritual progress as well as having pragmatic benefits, for example, business success. Brahma Kumaris frequently organize seminars on business management and on developing personal life skills"[34].
* After
The Brahma Kumaris teach a form of meditation teaches a form of meditation[1] called Raja Yoga, which according to Reender Kranenborg may not be the same as classical Raja Yoga as described by Patanjali[34]. The practise taught by BKWSU involves channelling and mediumship where women are the instruments of a male spirit which is the subject of their meditation.[35][22] through which members are encourage to purify their mind by sitting tranquilly, in front of a screen which Dada Lehkraj's picture.[36]
Ugh. Bksimonb 20:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say this is the exact opposite of what I am complaining about above in my ummm section.... putting the medium info in the WRONG place. :) Sethie 20:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The before statement is much better.  More neutral and balanced.  Go for it.  (respondingn to Bksimonb, not Sethie who's raising a completely different issue from the previous post)  Renee  --Renee 21:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No... I agree completely Sethie 21:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Done. Bksimonb 05:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Raja Yoga section is now misleading

message: i'd like to open us the conversation about mediumistic chanelling again that was so quicky erased as soon as simon managed to have be blocked again
i disagree with any suggestion that just to mention it at the top is POV or undue weight....its a fact . each day as a Bk we get up at 6 in the morning to go and listen to a channelled message , each day we get or got up at 4 in the morning to meditate and the object of our yoga is the channelled entity , we go on one holiday a year if we can and it is to go do madhuban to see the channelling and mediumship go , for most the organisations history every thurday , they performed trance mediumship, the do for all sort of other things such as service plans, building , after leaders died , privately for advise so on
what i am emphasising is that channelling and mediumship ARE utterly central to the Bkwsu in a way that it is in no other "yoga" . I want to copy in the rest of what i wrote for those editors that do not know what goes on in the Bkwsu
its also wrong to say that the Bkwsu teach a variant of Raja Yoga Bks practise is nothing to do with classical raja yoga . this also needs to be emphasised to be accurate Green108 01:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediumistic chanelling 

message: Could we please have the full citation and context for the claim that the BKWSU "focus" is on 4 subjects? All we appear to have is the book title.
Babb, Lawrence A. (1987). Redemptive Encounters: Three Modern Styles in the Hindu Tradition (Comparative Studies in Religion and Society)
Thank you. Faithinhumanity 17:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On my keyboard (american) it's the key right below the backspace and above the enter key on the right side (you have to shift to get it, it looks like two up and down dashes).  --Renee 16:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus. First paragraph. 

message: Disclosure - I have no affiliation with the Brahma Kumaris or any related teacher or organization. I have no affiliation with any anti-Brahma Kumari individuals or groups. My edits are based solely on what I personally see as the most neutral way of stating the information in the article. Period. Any further accusations of conflict of interest will be treated as a personal attack and reported as such. Please stop trying to game the rules by attempting to discredit editors by implying conflict of interest on the part of neutral parties. If you take a look at my edit history you will see that I edit a broad range of articles and have in fact edited 2098 unique pages. Compare that with Faithinhumanity who is clearly a single purpose account who has edited only this article, its talk page, and my talk page. IPSOS (talk) 15:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Welcome. This article has been crying out for a genuinely neutral editor with a bit of commitment to it for a long time. Please stick with it. (By the way, in the interests of disclosure, I'm a BK part-time editor). Appledell 21:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Diclosure

message: I have a question about the historical section. Its says, Brahma Baba started "receiving messages". This is not what we were taught at our center and I think it gives a wrong impression, as if he was a psychic medium or something. What we were taught was that God starting speaking through him.
Should this not be corrected? I will give it a go. Lwachowski 17:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well..... you need a source which says that, and private teachings you recieved at a center don't count. Sethie 19:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is mentioned in a number of the books and articles included on the page. I would not have said so if it was not. --Lwachowski 05:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Receiving messages  

message: I make my point again. Reinsertion of copy errors is surely vandalism. By all account raise the issues you wish to or remove the elements you think are contention. But please do not blindly reinsert of copy errors. This is surely vandalism.
If you wish to comment, I have clarified every edits except for the simple copy edits above. Thank you. --Lwachowski 18:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I for one don't find your clarification useful. You are changing text based on citation to text that can't be verified to that citation. You can't do that. And you haven't replied to where I've explained that you can't do that. And you are making no attempt to achieve consensus with the several established editors of this article. IPSOS (talk) 18:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and you are quite welcome to fix the errors without reverting to your version, which you have not yet done. You only revert and fix, wasting everyone's time. IPSOS (talk) 18:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lwachowski now that you have been blocked, would you consider behaving properly? Best, Riveros11 19:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I have missed you guys lately, working on mundane stuff like Discount Tire Company. What an exciting life you lead! Rumiton 11:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is meant by "returning to the world"? Is it possible to leave it? Or do you mean the everyday world, or the world of family life, or something like that? Rumiton 11:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good of you to drop by :-) Where is "returning to the world" used? I can't find it anywhere else on this page. Is it in the article somewhere? And yes, we are not short of action here recently. If you're hanging around you might want to wear some protective clothing! Regards Bksimonb 12:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the welcome and the warning. I am, of course, protectively clad in my cloak of transparent virtue and helmet of invincible otherworldliness.  :-)   "Returning to the world for girls who have such dowries paid for them, is difficult." ??  Rumiton 09:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah that 'ol chestnut! That means that having chosen a life with the BKWSU and no longer having a dowry, later trying to re-integrate with the traditional expectations, systems and customs of Indian society would be difficult. No dowry means marriage would not be an easy option. I would say the issues are with a lack of women's rights and options in general in traditional India rather than with the BKWSU. In effect the BKWSU is providing a way out for those who would prefer to live a spiritual path rather than a family life. I am also cautious of generalising Indian social norms because I am aware that the landscape is changing rapidly there and there are now many women working in the new industries such as IT. Hope that helps clarify. Regards Bksimonb 09:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Hhhmm. Maybe you need to expand this slightly in the article. As it stands, the reader may sniff an odour of spiritual superiority (we are not of this world) from the line, which from your explanation may be quite unjustified. Rumiton 10:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you be able to suggest an alternative line since I don't understand quite where the concern is myself? I accept I may be a bit myopic on this one so I appreciate an outside view. It seems the last line is a direct quote from the reference. Maybe it needs to be re-phrased to make sense in the article. Regards Bksimonb 10:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I may well be a little over-sensitive, but having been around a number of spiritual groups it raises a flag for me when I hear groupists refer to themselves and their culture (no pun intended) as being better than, or separate from, the rest of humanity. Returning to the world smacks of this. It is the kind of pride that goes before a major fall, from what I have seen. If you can find references to expand on it the way you just did for me I think it would be a lot better. Rumiton 12:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess we have a bone to pick with Julie Howell then! How about something like, "Returning to a life outside the institution for girls who have such dowries paid for them, is difficult." Is that more neutral? Regards Bksimonb 13:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think you are going the other way now, with institution. Pretty negative connotations. I think the way you explained it above makes it understandable, but you will have to support it with refs of course. Rumiton 13:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What about "Returning to a life away from the organisation"? I can't see how that has any other negative connonatation - it is just factual, based on the ref. Appledell 20:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Rumiton. You would be correct to say that the Brahma Kumaris think themselves and their religion to be superior to all others. Not only do they think they are superior but they think that all other religions, including Christianity, are a partial offshoot of their own religion. This is and should be reflected in the topic. Faithinhumanity 17:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Faithinhumanity, When someone starts to make pronouncements about what other people "think", to me, that immediately sounds alarm bells. Also the discussion is about the way Julie Howell phrased something, you appear to be making a false association here. The belief that "Raja Yoga is the precursor to and influence of world religions" is already in the article and referenced to Walliss. Raja yoga also entails becoming free from ego and arrogance, which would by definition excludes any type of negative superiority complex. Me thinks the above post maybe intended to create divisions. Bksimonb 08:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  To believe that BK is "superior" than any other religion is a gross misinterpretation of the knowledge. There is a concept in BK, "numberwise" and also the view of actors playing a role according to their own nature (sanskars), (which indeed is predestined however paradoxical when free will comes into the picture) We are equal but different. These are concepts which are hard to grasp if your trend of thought is linear.. a "black or white" type of guy...Sometimes I wonder about the ex-bk claim of "expertise" in gyan. Best, Riveros11 13:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reinsertion of copy errors is surely vandalism. 

message: To whom it may concern: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Brahma Kumaris movement 
Sethie 04:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: afd

message: I'm responding to the request for comment, but I don't see an indication in the table of contents about which section in particular is in need of third party comments.  Please indicate what the RFC is supposed to target. VisitorTalk 23:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I thought I closed the rfc some time ago. Can you send me a diff of where you found it? Obviously missed something. Thanks & regards Bksimonb 05:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just removed the rfc that began, "*Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University Request for involvment." That is quite old and has effectively been attended to now, though we would still appreciate if any neutral editor cares to add this article to their watchlist and keep an eye on things. This rfc was already buried in this article's Talk page archives which is probably why you didn't find it. Regards Bksimonb 09:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the RFC for?