Talk:History of Finland

message: I'm preparing an article on the concept of Western Betrayal at User:Halibutt/Western betrayal. I need someone to drop in and add facts about the Allied promises to Finland during the Winter War and the overall fealing it gave to the Finnish population. Could anyone help with the data?Halibutt 07:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: (Finland in the post-Soviet era): On July 5th 1995 Finland won the ice hockey world championship in Stockholm, Sweden, beating Sweden 4-1.
Does it belong here? — Monedula 06:25, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Ice hockey

message: Following the Wikipedia policy to avoid concurrent articles covering the same subject from different points of views, I would suggest that Finland's and Sweden's history between 1155 and 1809 are to be coordinated and merged, although framing articles like History of Finland and History of Sweden of course must remain.
I can see one substantial problem: The wikipedia:templates for Swedish history would need to be somehow extended to cover also for relevant overview articles on Finland's history.
Being a foreigner to both countries (although I've lived in Malmö for a couple of years), I'm somewhat confused by the invisibility of Finland on the Swedish history pages.
--Ruhrjung 22:24, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)
I don't know if I'll have time by the computer this weekend (it all depends on the sun, the snow, and social requirements) but I consider to split this article into parts that are referred to with the main-template from this framing article. In that respect, it would seem natural for me to manifest Finland's and Sweden's shared history by articles that are not separated for the period of 1155–1809.
Ruhrjung 00:46, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
:In theory a good idea, but likely to become the source of highly unwished and counter-productive strifes between nationalist Swedes on one hand and Finns who read the history with fennoman goggles on the other — I don't know if I advice against it, but I warn against it! ;-) /Tuomas 15:18, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History articles  covering the same subject from different points of views? 

message: The Anjala conspiracy was a movement of officers who opposed the absolutist tendencies of Gustaf III and the war started by him. The small separatist group of Finnish officers was, quite simply, a different thing, although many of its members took part in the Anjala conspiracy. Most of the Anjala men would have been appalled by the though of Finnish indepency - just like most of the Finns would have been.
User:130.232.193.11
:Hello to Turku!
:I do not disagree with you - so far. However, the conspiracy is known under the name of the Anjala conspiracy and the relation between the separatists (who, as far as I understand, more or less hijacked the process) and the signers of the documents (the Liikkala and the Anjala letters) ought to be presented in more detail in the article on the Anjala conspiracy, but mentioned correctly, although briefly, here. I'm sure you can see to that better and more authoritatively than I can. But the hyperlink to the Anjala-article has to be preserved. That's important to keep in mind.
:Johan Magnus 09:41, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Anjala conspiracy

message: I am also frustrated because of the suggestion made by Johan Magnus that my corrections are not neutral. Actually I made modifications to the prehistory text to steer it towards more neutral direction! The present text gives an improportionate piece of space to a disputed, (according to many Finnish researchers, unscientific, possibly even national-chauvinistic) theory of the origins of Finns, and mentions the more widely supported theories only in passing, or not at all. That is certainly not neutral and unbiased.     
User:130.232.193.11
:Yes, I guess you were at least as distressed about my easy reversion of your drastic shortening on the reasoning on when Finns might have arrived in the country. There are two or three aspects on this:
:First of all, sweeping eradications are generally not the very best thing to do at Wikipedia. They tend too easily to be interpreted as bordering to Wikipedia:vandalism. You, and contributors in your position, do not see this so, of course. You had the best intentions, of course. But the issue is: How make this obvious also for other Wikipedians? 
:Secondly, the text as it stands has its worst weakness therein, that it lacks references to credible sources and authorities. Your shorter version was not an improvement in this respect.
:Lastly, as I wrote in the edit summary, in my perception the text you tried to edit away was much more in line with Wikipedia's NPOV-policies, that is about as close to a Constitution for Wikipedia as you can come, than your substitute, that had cut away all the stuff on alternative points of view/earlier belief. I realize that I might be more or less wrong here, and I'm sorry for the feeling of rejection that you might have felt, but hopefully this will in the end result in a maybe much improved text! (And, without intending to seem arrogant: I think you made one or a few mistakes that were rather presentational or procedural. I consider these to have been initial mistakes of the kind all of us have made — and hopefully we've become wiser as a consequence.)
:(Finally, a user name could be advantageous for all involved parts. It maybe oughtn't be so, but in reality, one looks a tad more credible with a good username instead of a series of a dozen digits. :) 
:Kind regards!
:Johan Magnus 09:41, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins of the Finns

message: The wording of YYA-treaty was very carefully considered, especially it's military parts. It was a military treaty, although it was more written to keep forces out instead of keeping forces in like is typical in normal military treaties.
The only responsibility for Finns is to defend only their own country against Germany (meaning NATO). Any neutral country has responsibility to defend their borders against all aggressors, so nothing damaging there. The treaty specifically stays silent about defending against SU, leaving the point open (Do not wake up sleeping tiger...). Practically meaning that Finland would stay neutral.
There is no section for Finns to send troops to Soviet needs or place Finnish troops under Soviet command. There is no section for Soviet troop placements to Finland or even allowing for Soviet air force to operate in Finnish air space.
The most damaging to Finnish neutrality was the military consultations-chapter in the treaty. In that chapter it was mandated that political discussions will be started for military co-operations if both parties agree. The threat of these discussions were used once by SU (1961 Berlin crisis), but the they were not started because of Finnish reluctance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whiskey (talk • contribs) 09:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  YYA-treaty (1948) 

message: Should I add a paragraph on the "preprehistory" as well? The article only talks about from 8500 BC onwards, while the earliest marks of human life (or.. well.. stone tools) date back to 118 000 BC (i.e. the Susiluola stone tools: http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25917 http://www.susiluola.fi/eng/wolfcave.php http://www.susiluola.fi/eng/links.php ) --HJV 12:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Susiluola finds are debated, as the article says. 217.30.179.130 14:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Susiluola 

message: The section on Viking/Middle ages seems to suffer from misuse of the term "century" all over the place, i.e. assuming "14th century" means the 1400s and not the 1300s. My knowledge of the period isn't extensive enough to fix it with confidence, but I know enough to notice something's wonky there. Hopefully someone who knows more about the period can fix it:).--Snowgrouse 04:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked it out, but I wasn't able to find that kind of errors. 217.112.242.181 10:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle Ages 

message: "On the other hand, there are some stone carvings in Häme region made to triumph the victory over raiding Vikings."
Unfortunately, this is all nonsense. Those carvings were natural marks on a rock, found and misinterpreted by an over-enthusiasistic amateur archaeologist, who gained publicity by the silly and uncritical article published in a major newspaper.217.112.242.181 21:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viking carvings in Häme 

message: Perhaps some may want to rescure parts of this removed edit.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western betrayal of Finland? 

message: I have included some information on the Finland's initial drive towards the accession to the EEA Treaty along with most other EFTA members, rather than the European Community/European Union. Several sources also indicate that Sweden's application also played some role in redirecting Finnish attention to EC/EU instead of the EEA. RedZebra 10:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  EEA Treaty 

message: Wouldn't it be worth mentioning in the text, that Finland was the United States’ only debtor country that continued to pay its war-related debt until the end? --213.186.251.24 08:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is most certainly worth mentioning.
--John 02:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The country that paid its debt 

message: This article doesn't mention the important prehistoric comb ceramic and corded ware cultures. The prehistory section could be vastly expanded and moved into a separate article.--JyriL talk 00:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neolithic used to be there but someone restored a vandalizing badly and so the section was lost. I have restored the section now. And yes, prehistory should be expanded and if enough material accumulates a separate article should be created. Clarifer 08:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comb ceramic/Corded ware cultures

message: Guinness man asked, whether the two Russian occupations of the 18th century were harsher than the Swedish rule prevalent at the time. The answer is yes. The Swedish rule was not an occupation but a status quo, which had prevailed since Middle Ages. Finland was not oppressed, and there were no systematic efforts to destroy the populace. Basically, Finland was an integral part of Sweden. There was a functioning civil authority, guaranteeing a basically peaceful life for the people. On the other hand, especially during the occupation of 1713–1721, there was basically no civil authority in the country and in Ostrobothnia, closest to unoccupied portions of Sweden, there was a systematic terror, which destroyed some 6.000 people, a quarter of total population. From other parts of Finland, 10.000–20.000 people were forcibly transferred to work as serfs in Russia, and the country suffered from famine. (Finland had no serfdom at the time.) The Finnish population was about 400.000 at the time. Calling this harsh may be POV, but I have heard some more forceful ways to call it.
On the other hand, during the occupation of 1743–1744, the Russians did not engage in any specific terror campaigns, rather vice versa. The most important calamities were a result of the breakdown of civil government due to the occupation. Still, a country with a foreign army inside its borders is usually always under some hardship. In the 18th century, rapes and looting were still a widespread practice in any army, not just in Russia. --MPorciusCato 10:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The occupations of 18th century 

message: I'm new to this wiki stuff so I want to run this change past a few more experienced hands.
I take exception the the statement: "the Continuation War led to a Finnish invasion of the Soviet Union designed not only to recover the lost territory but additionally to answer irredentist pan-Finnicist dreams of a Greater Finland by incorporating East Karelia whose inhabitants were culturally kindred although religiously Russian Orthodox."  
This implies that Finland was the aggressor.
I feel some kind of comment needs to be added, since according to "A History of Finland" by Eino Jutikkala & Kauko Pirinen on the start of the Continuation War:
"As a formal pretext for starting the war, the Soviet government accused Finns of having fired artillery shells on a Red Army unit stationed in a border village, Mainila. The Finns disputed this charge, and documents found by researchers in Moscow archives after the collapse of the Soviet regime reveal that the shells were fired by KGB troops."
ErkkiS 15:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are talking about the start of Winter War. The Continuation War started a year and a half later. --MPorciusCato 11:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finland in World War II 

message: The following text is pasted here from the article Finnish Orthodox Church. As the text overlapped with the contents of this article, please see if the text has reusable elements here. --Drieakko 07:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Staraya Ladoga was not a territory settled by Karelians. There were other Finnic population groups atround the Volkhov river, not Karelians.--130.234.75.164 09:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text from Finnish Orthodox Church 

message: The article makes some reference to the shape of society in the lands now known as Finland, but there is very little about the organization of society and the relationship between land holding and social status.  I would be interested to know how land was held, how rights to land were enforced during the various forms of rule. Did there develop in Finland a form of hierarchy of land holding and tenature as was seen in much of medieval Europe with few rich land owners and a subordinated peasantry?
Is there an article in the Finnish language Wikipedia on this subject that could be brought into the English language WP?  --Tom (talk) 08:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortuntely, the articles about Finnish social history in fi-Wikipedia still lack proper sources, and with a brief googling, I was unable to find English-speaking material on Finnish land ownership. However, I may outline the Finnish landownership briefly:
* Finland never had a feudal system. The majority of land was, at all times, held by peasants. Large estates exised only in the Southern part of the country, and even there, they did not constitute the majority of arable land.
* Until 19th century, the land was legally either frälse or taxable. The usual, taxable land was owned by peasants. However, their ownership was rather weak. If the taxes of a farm were unpaid for three years, the farm was declared öde, empty, and returned to the crown, which might then issue it to another peasant. Frälse land was on the other hand, reserved only to noble families, and free of taxes. It could only be transferred to other nobles. However, a noble was allowed to have the frälse status only for one to three estates, depending on his rank. Other estates owned by the same person were taxable.
* In 17th century, the crown had a wide-spread practice of donating the taxes of houses, villages or parishes to nobles who had served it well. Such donation did not constitute a transfer of ownership of the land, nor did it give the noble any jurisdiction in the area. However, malpractices occured. The practice came to an abrupt end in the 1670s, as Charles XI, with the support of the diet, "reduced" three quarters of such donations back to the crown.
* In addition to the independent peasants, there existed a class of crown peaseants, whose ownership was weaker, a life-tenure which usually was transferred to the same family. They were given the right to buy their farms in 1789, and by 1850's, they had disappeared as a class.
* A major reform, isojako, was conducted from 1760s on (still ongoing in some parts of the country). In this reform, the earlier, medieval Open field system was substituted with a system of fields owned by single owner. At the same time, the common forests were divided in relation to field ownership, while more distant forests were declared for the crown. 
* After isojako, a new crofter class was formed. The torppas, the crofts, were formed in the forests cleared for agriculture. The crofter usually paid rent with his work, making one or two days a week to the house. The crofters were given the right to buy out their farms in 1919, transforming the class to smallholders.--MPorciusCato (talk) 18:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Land holdings, tenure, peasantry 

message: Would somebody like to look into this, maybe provide a source or remove it?
"Like other Nordic countries, Finland has liberalized the economy since late 80s. Financial and product market regulation was removed. The market is now one of the most free in Europe. State enterprises were privatized and taxes were cut. However, unlike in Denmark, trade unions blocked job market reforms, causing persistent unemployment and a two-tier job market. Trade unions also blocked social security reform proposals towards basic income or negative income tax."
That's quite a serious accusation without any references whatsoever.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.88.43 (talk) 12:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent history 

message: This page says Abu university was the only university in Europe founded by a women. This is wrong as Queen Elizabeth I of England founded Trinity College in Dublin in 1592 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.166.51 (talk) 14:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abu University 

message: Officially claiming to be neutral, Finland lay in the grey zone between the Western countries and the Soviet Union. The "YYA Treaty" (Finno-Soviet Pact of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance) gave the Soviet Union some leverage in Finnish domestic politics. This was extensively exploited by President Urho Kekkonen against his opponents. He maintained an effective monopoly on Soviet relations, which gave him a status of "only choice for president" and 25 years regime from 1956 to 1981. There was also a tendency of self-censorship regarding Finno-Soviet relations. This phenomenon was given the name "Finlandisation" by the German press (fi. suomettuminen). When Finlandisation was not enough, direct censorship was used, including in 1700 books and many movies. Asylum-seeking defectors were returned to the Soviet Union for punishment or execution. The Soviet-financed, anti-Western, pro-Soviet youth movements peaked in the 1970s, when the communist-led Teen Union started to harass bourgeoisie-suspected teachers. Soviets succeed in agitating a majority of baby boomers to socialist ideologies, with the radical taistoists even demanding that Finland join the Soviet Union. The Stasi and KGB used their strengthened allies to cooperate installations of socialists in the administration, mass media (particularly by Tampere University journalism department, YLE, and Helsingin Sanomat), academia (particularly social sciences), political parties and trade unions (particularly the Central Organisation of Finnish Trade Unions). Politicization, pursued as a way to socialist revolution, was widespread and public sector workers were often dependent on having the correct political party membership.
Unless proper citations are provided for this highly tendentious series of statements, I will delete this section 24 hours from now. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 09:57, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead, that is a clear violation of NPOV. Taken as single points, many of the claims can be sourced properly, but the text as an entity gives a very biased view of the phenomenon. --MPorciusCato (talk) 14:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This interesting though, if the Finns held a high degree of property rights (libertarianism) yet stayed friendly with the Soviets (socialism), then those Finns were absolute masters of the card game that has been Europe all along.  Explains, actually, how a Finn dominated free software that was previously dominated by a seeming socialist (RMS), to hand it over to the ultimate capital construct: IBM.  Linux was obsolete when it was written (Tannenbaum) but we can't get rid of it!--John Bessa (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Tendentious material

message: As an XC skier, I have always admired the Finnish Soviet resistance, as did the US military when it formed the 9th Mountain Division.  (Members of the 9MD went on to create the sport of downhill by forming, for instance, Aspen, CO, and it was in Italy that they showed their strength--but not in the Alps!)  For WWII, I like the Ballantine series.  It is blue-collar to the core, but, as it happens far more factual than the sequential and socratic, so I tend to believe it over "higher" sources.  According to the winter war (not capitalized) it seems obvious that the Finns played a) the hatred of Bolshevism by the French and English against the Soviets, and b) the obvious falseness of the Hitler/Stalin pact to get the Soviets to hurry a Finn-Soviet armistice.
According to this article, tiny and brand-new Finland went on to become a top nation in the World.  This can happen only if the top people are promoted, rather than the sequential and predatory, as had happened in the Soviet Union, Germany, and, ultimately, the US.  This, I think needs to be researched, understood, and integrated into the article to assure picture-perfect comprehension of Finland.--John Bessa (talk) 14:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWII convolutions and how they defined Finland 

message: The article is quite weak on Finland's history 1890-1916. In particular, one would expect a grand duchy of the Russian empire to send lots of soldiers to Russia's war against Germany (World War I), but apparently this did not happen, because the conscription strike of 1901-1902, following the new conscription law of 1901. Finnish soldiers apparently also weren't used in the war between Russia and Japan in 1905. --LA2 (talk) 07:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finland in World War I 

message: The timeline graph in the introduction part is incorrect. According to the graph, the Republic of Finland had existed in 1917 - 1995 after which the polity of Finland had been changed to a "Membership of the European Union".  There must be a misunderstanding. Finland has been and still is, a republic from 1917 onwards. Actually the republic was not declared until 1918 after the fall of imperial Germany in WW I. In November 1918 the already elected king of Finland, Kaiser's brother-in-law prince Friedrich Karl of Hessen was asked to decline the offered throne.
Of course, besides EU, Finland is a member state of numerous other organizations (like UN, WTO, CSCE, Nordic Council etc) just as are the neighbouring EU members. But I did not see such a cease of status in their corresponding Wikipedia entries. Not in any EU member.  I wonder what would the British say if their monarchy were declared as being ceased in Wikipedia from 1973 owards when the Britain joined EEC which later became EU. 
Perhaps some moderator could correct the timeline?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.249.199.25 (talk) 08:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discontinuation of the  Republic of Finland in 1995 ? 

message: Am I the only one who finds this article a) not well enough sourced and b) written from a very Swedish point of view? The whole history of Finland from 1100-1900 is written like the Swedish influence was only positive and Russian influence was only negative. I think this article need big improvements, better sourcing and a more neutral point of view.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reskelinen (talk • contribs) 02:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Like many other articles on Wikipedia, I am sure this too can and should be improved. I noticed the section 18th century – the Age of Enlightenment seemed to lack any sources at all; and other sections may lack adequate sources too, as well as having possible problems with neutrality/perspective. The best thing you can do is try to rewrite/adding sources; the second best is to tag part of the article for problems you have noticed. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 02:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The neutrality of this article - Swedish point of view? 

message: Hi there! I just noticed that this article's section on Society and the welfare state is heavily unreferenced, somewhat slanted, and suspiciously sourced by at least one book which I have read that does not seem to flesh out anything relevant to the section. My suggestion is to have a very thorough rewrite of the section. Meşteşugarul  - U 01:15, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Society and welfare state section has serious issues 

message: This article currently says that Finland "was the only bordering country of USSR in Europe that kept its independence after the war." Presumably the author believes that Romania, Hungary, etc. did not keep their "independence" because they were under Soviet influence. However, that distinction should be made clear, since technically they were independent states. Also, Norway bordered the USSR and remained independent after the war. It could be argued that at times it didn't border the USSR, but still, the point is debatable. 74.71.86.209 (talk) 03:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The RS agree the staellites were under Kremlin control and had no independent voice. Of course the Baltics were absorbed by USSR.  Rjensen (talk) 04:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countries bording USSR that maintained independence 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I feel that the beginning of the article introduces stuff that's irrelevant to the history of Finland. The Stone Age cultures are not important, maybe have a link at the top to the stone age of Finland. What they should be more concerned about is the history and not the prehistory. ~~ Hushak  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hushak (talk • contribs) 03:42, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beginning of the Articlle 

message: Anyone else find that map peculiar? The Kymi didn't become the Swedish-Russian border until the Treaty of Turku was signed in 1743, even though Homann died in 1724. But the map also shows Savonlinna as being part of Sweden, even though Sweden ceded Savonlinna as a result of the treaty. Could it be that he made a mistake, and incorrectly assumed that the Kymi was the border when in reality it was farther to the east? Betelgeuse X (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homann Map 

message: the article is written from a colonial christian perspective, rather than from an indigenous pagan perspective. christianity was never popular in finland; today, the country is overwhelmingly atheist. a much greater attempt should be made to narrate the history of finland from the perspective of the finns and their traditional beliefs and values, and not from the perspective of beliefs and values import by imperial conquerors from the south.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.190.102.230 (talk) 22:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to be bold and add more pre-Christian beliefs/aspects to the article, backed up by reliable sources of course. TylerBurden (talk) 14:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  this article has a dominant pro-christian bias