Talk:The Nolans

message: Somebody had pasted a huge whack of irelevant information promoting various bootleg compilations into the article, which I've summarily removed, along with links to unofficial sites. The text still needs copy-editing (which means the tag should stay), but at least it's a start. Gusworld (talk) 07:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: After a few days, the material got pasted back in again (by a user who is already deregistered). It's clearly non-encyclopedic, poorly formatted, and seems designed in large part to promote bootlet compilations. So once again I removed it. Gusworld (talk) 20:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This hasn't officially moved into WP:3RR territory, but there's definitely an edit war going on. The fact that the user who keeps inserting this material is either an anon or a redlinked account doesn't make it easy to engage in a dialogue, so let me restate the case as I see it: the information being added is entirely unsourced, in many cases consists only of lists (of minor TV appearances or Japanese recordings), is littered with non-NPOV material, and clearly in some cases is promoting bootlegs/fan compilations of material. Extra information about the success of the Nolans in Japan would definitely improve the article, but it should be sourced and written appropriately. The material being added doesn't remotely meet this criteria, being largely an unordered mess, and its presence distracts from the need to also rewrite the main body text. I'd welcome extra input from other Wiki users and admins, as at this stage we seem to be reaching a not very productive stalemate. Gusworld (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also further discussion of this dispute on my talk page. Gusworld (talk) 04:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: there certainly is a problem here.   my friend has written all the text about the  videos and the japanese years, as she has them all. the albums are  all official. how can  we source  material that no one  semeed to know about, and would never have appeared in  wiki. this peroid was a very important  time for the nolans, and a  hugely   sucessful one.  again  there is no malice intended with any reversals, but  the fact that all this  started  because some   idiots  took  chunks out for badness.
--Gazer97 (talk) 20:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sourcing may well be a problem, but verifiability is a core Wikipedia policy. In any event, there's also a question of relevance -- it isn't encylopedic to list every television appearance made by a given group, or which appearances are found on particular fan-circulated tapes, and that type of material would quite likely be removed from any article. There's already a discography section in the article; for commercially released Japanese albums (not promos or fan compilations, as the general consensus among Wikipedia editors is that these aren't appropriate), a useful first step would be to add the album titles there. Another relevant policy to look at is WP:OWN -- material that gets added gets edited, and it's inappropriate to take the view 'I (or my friend) wrote this so it must never be changed', which is how this is coming across right now. I'm going to revert the material, but will try and implement some of these editing suggestions later today if you don't get to it first. Gusworld (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Karen, please read the entire discussion here, you've ignored most of it (and it helps to add comments at the end). As it stands, the listing you've pasted includes promo only releases, has a lot of irrelevant side comments, isn't formatted appropriately, and has a lot of repeated data. And then there's the problem of the TV show listings, which you haven't addressed either. Your enthusiasm is commendable, but you need to work within the framework of Wikipedia's guidelines and community. Gusworld (talk) 21:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I still feel it would be more appropriate to get the text into a cleaner form rather than continually readding it unedited, and that the information it expresses should be integrated more concisely into the main article. Having gone through the CD-related material, for example, what it amounts to is a list of 10 albums (many compilations), some of which don't have dates. These could be added to the discography rather than in a separate section. Also, continually readding a fan site which doesn't even have a registered URL is definitely a no-go. Gusworld (talk) 23:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now added the basic information about the Japanese albums that can be gleaned from the disputed section into the discography. It would be helpful to have dates added into this section, as for many of the albums all we have is a title. I'd also like to draw both your and Karen's attention to the three-revert rule, as you've both violated this today with the continual reverts. Also take a look at WP:NOT which might help you understand why so many people feel the text being added isn't appropriate in its current form. Gusworld (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup started 

message: The reverting over other sections has also made it hard to keep this in line with Wikipedia guidelines. The current section includes the official site for the group, official sites for all members, and a representative fan site. Please don't readd sites that haven't been launched or sites that are no longer operating. (See here for the guidelines.) Gusworld (talk) 23:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links section 

message: I see a bunch of information about the Japanese releases was added under the discography, so I've incorporated this as appropriate. I've added the albums that weren't already in the list to the main discography table. There's no need to repeat the albums in a separate list. I'll note the patterm of the Japanese release activity more specifically in the body text. As has been noted before, promo-only releases aren't suitable for a discography.  Material that's purely opinion (such as the Five Star comparison) also isn't suitable; this would not to be sourced (to  a reputable publication or critic) to be included. Gusworld (talk) 20:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: this  part was added to  keep  some of the   information about the period , there is nothing wrong with the   bit  it sums up to  fans at a glance  what went on then. also you do  not seem to know that they were widely called on UK TV the Irish Five Star.  you hav  missed out New music pops in japan- the nolans and friends 14 track special issue white day cd, any reason?--Gazer97 (talk) 21:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The last edit was very disruptive -- the changes to the discography and the notes I'd added to the 1990s section about the Japanese releases, based on the new material, disappeared as a result. The discography has a chronological list including all the commercial releases which doesn't need repeating two lines later. The rest of the section is opinion, which isn't appropriate for Wikipedia: see WP:NPOV. To justify the comparison, we'd need a specific or sourced example of the Nolans being referred to as the Irish Five Star (it strikes me as unlikely, given the Nolans came first), and in any event a UK TV example wouldn't justify a comparison relative to the Japanese albums. Re: the White Day CD, the special issue bit suggested to me that wasn't a general release, but I'll take it that's not the case and add it to the discography. Gusworld (talk) 21:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: ok if the  albums are in ok, but its  surely a   good idea to have a   general  bit of information  as to what went on at the time , why they were asked to record etc, and the style they had, taking that out is pointless --Gazer97 (talk) 21:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The main body of the article now mentions that the group continued to actively pursue a career in Japan in the 1990s, and notes the main Japan-only releases. Placing this after the discography makes much less sense. Some of this information is very much in need of sourcing (e.g. the six albums claim), but it is present. The fact that the band appeared on TV to promote the recordings isn't notable (all bands do, and it would arguably be more notable if they didn't), nor is the fact that fans like to collect this work. Descriptions of musical style are highly subjective, which is why Wikipedia generally requires that they be sourced. I simply can't see that the contested text adds any new or appropriate information to the current version (to say nothing of the way that it's expressed, which is also an issue). Gusworld (talk) 21:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: The claim re group membership is not an accurate one, nor a civil one. The evolving group lineup is discussed in the main body of the article (though it could be probably be expressed more clearly); the contested section repeats this information. I note again that Wikipedia is open for anyone to edit and that no-one has ownership of articles. I'm going to seek outside input on this as both of you don't seem to be taking note of most of the discussion here, or recognising that information isn't added purely to satisfy fans. Karen, please sign your posts by placing four tildes after your comment. Gusworld (talk) 21:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: why are you not including who was in the group in the japan years, its  added  coz its  important. this is getin outa   hand,   i mean this was  all put in   to satisfy fans who want to know details, god surely a    few lines of text  will  not bugger  up the  whole of wiki. too many  folk  think they know  things they dont, or are determined to interfere for the sake of it, godsake its  no life or death  go  do  somrthing else on a fri night--Gazer97 (talk) 21:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The vast majority of the text in this article was not written by me, as the article history shows. The section on the band's post-Epic career could doubtless benefit from a clearer statement of the band's lineup at that time, but that would be the logical place to put it -- not in a header on top of a random list underneath the discography. As I've said, neither of us should be involved in editing at the moment given the revert problems -- we need to achieve consensus here first, and part of that process is your recognising the issues involved with the text you want to incorporate, and the policies that apply to information on Wikipedia. Gusworld (talk) 22:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Once again, I point to WP:CIVIL -- personal insults are not appropriate. An RfC process for this article has already been started. Please sign your posts. Gusworld (talk) 22:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I see you've now removed the section listing TV appearances. As I've noted earlier on this page, I'm not personally convinced this was ever necessary, but the current version had been created after what appeared to be a consensus discussion between myself and Gazer97. Again, making wholesale changes to a page that's under dispute and in possible violation of WP:3RR is not a good way of proceeding. Gusworld (talk) 22:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Just a note to say that while I believe the current version of the article is once again loaded with inappropriate, unsourced and repeated information, and has eliminated useful consensus changes made earlier, I'm refraining from making any changes while the RFC and 3RR processes are in place. As I've said before, the currently active editors should definitely familiarise themselves with WP:OWN, WP:CIVIL and WP:VER. Gusworld (talk) 23:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese discography information 

message: Two editors believe that information on the Nolans' Japanese career and TV appearances is being unfairly deleted; another editor believes that much of this information is irrelevant, contrary to policy or should be incorporated elsewhere well gustworld can start his own nolans page
and iv got a good idea what place he could put it gustworld knows nothing about the nolan so
his comments are not needed. thanks
:Situation has changed (one of the disputing users is blocked and hence can't contribute) so I've removed the RfC tag for the time being. Gusworld (talk) 00:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC: Information on Nolans Japanese career and TV appearances 

message: The following uncited information has been in the article in various forms for quite a while (edited into this form by me but around as a list for rather longer):
:"In Japan, several single titles were changed for promotional purposes, a common practice in the Japanese market. "I’m In The Mood For Dancing" was retitled "Dancing Sister" (Japanese: 「ダンシング･シスター) and promoted with the catchphrase 'Five Fresh & Fruity Gals'. "Gotta Pull Myself Together" was promoted as "Koi-no Happy Date" (translation: happy date for our love). Two records were promoted via the ages of individual members: "Tokimeki Twenty" (translation: exciting twenty) for "Who's Gonna Rock You" referred to the then 20-year old Bernie, while "Natsu-wa Sixteen" '(translation: sixteen best suited for summer) was similarly linked to 16-year old Coleen in "Chemistry" promotion. Other title changes included "Yasashiku Love Me" '(translation: love me tenderly) for "Don't Love Me Too Hard" and "Love Koi-shikute"(translation: so in love) for "How Do I Survive".."
Now, I presume that this is referring to the text found on the obi strip. If that's the case, then on reflection I think it's not suitable for Wikipedia, as essentially it represents minor information about record packaging and is thus non-notable. More pertinently for now, it doesn't have a source, so I'm going to remove it from the main article for now -- but am parking it here so if someone can find suitable sources, it might be reintroduced (though probably not in its current form). Gusworld (talk) 02:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i was away for 2 days  am back    so i hav  not  quietend down--Gazer97 (talk) 18:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obi strip information 

message: There's been no concrete response to my questions or suggestions, and no justification throughout this discussion of how this version meets core Wikipedia policies on formatting, suitable content, verifiability and no original research. So I've returned the article to the version featuring references and conforming more closely to Wikipedia guidelines and generally accepted approaches (note the cleanup tag on the older version), hoping that this can be the basis for further improvements. (As I said above, I realise some minor punctuation and capitalisation changes were made in the interim, but I can't see any extra 'information' added, as this diff shows  and I've maintained in this talk page discussion that the material being corrected here is not suitable in that form, being repetitious, frequently POV and unsourced.)
I recognise, though, that there's no consensus yet on how best to move forward with improving this article, so I don't propose to make any further changes until they have been discussed on this talk page and we can reach some kind of consensus.
I really hope that we can agree to work together and enhance this version with additional information, corrections and references, as well as creating any suitable sub-articles to make use of further material, rather than endlessly revisiting the same argument, which essentially boils down to Nolans2007 (backed up by Gazer97) stating her expert Nolans knowledge and me pointing out Wikipedia policies and article conventions violated by the previous versions. That could potentially be a productive combination of knowledge and skills; it's a pity it hasn't been so far.
No-one owns this article, and ongoing changes and discussions are inevitable at Wikipedia, but at present, we're the three editors with a declared interest in working on this article, so we need to find a way to work together. Gusworld (talk) 22:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A version to build from 

message: Can anyone confirm the existence of this as an actual single released in the UK in 1979, and identify the label or catalogue number? It doesn't show up in any prominent second-hard record stores online (I checked GEMM, eBay and EIL), and the only references to the single (as distinct to the TV performance) that I could find through Google are copied from this entry on Wikipedia. I know it's appeared as a bonus track on various releases, but unless there's some definite evidence of the single itself it needs to be removed from the singles discography (the song is already mentioned in the article in the context of the Song for Europe performance). I'd have thought it would be relatively uncommon for a single by a band with (at that stage) no singles chart pedigree to be released for a song that didn't win the Song for Europe round, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Gusworld (talk) 20:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, will look into that, thanks. Technically, only the UK Top 75 is considered canonical (which is why a #99 appearance wouldn't show up in reference books), but it could potentially be added in with a footnote to that effect. Gusworld (talk) 23:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (Just shifted this to the end to make tracking discussion easier). A related question if anyone knows: is the 95 re-release of IITMFD a remix of the 89 re-recording, or a second re-recording? (As ever, need a source for this, but knowing the answer would make it simpler to locate one!) Gusworld (talk) 00:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm fairly sure the 89 and 95 versions are different, but don't know 100%, so not a lot of help there. I do know that they re-recorded all their hits on a 1995 compilation released over here (UK and Ireland)- the version on this CD is different, but also on a different label. It was a budget release, so I wouldn't be too worried about including it in the discography. I see however, that you failed to put in the '85 single "Goodbye Nothin' To Say". This was advertised in the press at the time, so probably seen as a comeback single - so quite important, despite it not charting. I also know they had another album out this year called "Love Songs". Unfortunately I don't know any details on it or how official it was. Possibly a follow-up to "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun"?
Still I'm glad to see all that ridiculous info on those videos has gone. --Tuzapicabit (talk) 11:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Have dug up some references for "Goodbye Nothin' To Say", so will add ASAP. Also need to add the early Target singles. I think there's a reference to Love Songs in some of the material I found earlier this week, will check. Thanks again for the information! Gusworld (talk) 12:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Goodbye Nothin' To Say is now in the discography table. When this has been expanded a bit with late 80s releases (next major task on the list), I'll also add some text referring to them in the main article. There's a bunch of different compilations with the same 12 hits on it, which I suspect are the re-recordings -- need to investigate further and gather some references. The recent interviews with Anne Nolan re her book have been useful in providing meatier references for early career activity, but don't have much to say on this subject. Gusworld (talk) 13:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harry My Honolulu Lover single - does it exist? 

message: The lack of sources for the claimed Japanese sales figures in the discography is very problematic, especially as they are so specific. Getting accurate information on Japanese sales is hard, and what data I can find online conflicts. For instance, the article currently claims (without a source) that "I'm In The Mood For Dancing" has sold 673,850 copies in Japan. The same figure is found in List of best-selling singles in Japan, which does list some general external sources. Of these, however, the only one with an actual Nolans sales number gives a different figure -- 409,250. It's hard for me to assess the reliability of a source page largely in Japanese (it offers lower totals for other artists as well, so it may be using a slightly different source for sales data), but it clearly demonstrates that the numbers can't be taken for granted. (The article text currently cites the book In The Mood For Success which claims 600,000+ sales, which seems an OK interim compromise to me.)
Similarly this site claims the Nolans had three #1 albums in Japan and spent 21 weeks at number one in total on the album charts. No source for the information is listed and there are no title details, so we really can't treat it as more than indicative, but note that we only have one Japanese #1 album listed in the discography.
Also problematic is the much-repeated claim that the Nolans outsold the Beatles with 9 million records sold in Japan. We're never told how many copies the Beatles are meant to have sold by comparison or over what period, and no source for the number's ever been given that I can find.
The total of all the numbers reported here (and again, remember these have no source) is 2.8 million, which is a substantial gap. We might assume the remaining numbers are made up from sales post-1983 -- but then, in this interview Linda quotes a lower number (8 million) but says that was in their first two years of activity in Japan -- more or less the same period covered by the numbers here. In one way, Linda's is a less substantial claim (it allows that the Beatles have probably sold more in Japan by now), but it suggests much higher initial sales than even the current discography numbers claim. In The Mood For Success suggests the Beatles-beating claim only relates to "I'm In The Mood For Dancing", but again doesn't offer a proper basis for the comparison.
The bottom line: can anyone point to any citable resources (perhaps in print) with reliable Japanese sales totals or chart data? In the absence of any extra evidence, my current feeling is that the sales figure column from the discography should certainly be removed, and the chart positions (other than the uncontested #1 status of "I'm In The Mood For Dancing") should probably go too. The current text about the Beatles comparison makes it evident that this is a frequent PR claim rather than a well-documented fact, but could also use some work to reflect the various uncertainties.
Anyway, wanted to raise all this here before making those changes. Thoughts?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gusworld (talk • contribs) 11:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sales figures are always a minefield and I would reckon you're better off ditching them - you'll probably never find anything fully reliable. One quick point, you list The Nolan Sisters album at No.3 in the UK and 15 in Japan - should that be the other way round? I know it only got to 15 in the UK, but unsure of where in Japan. Good work on the early releases though. I remember seeing "All The Kings Horses" being performed on a TV programme around April/May 1979 - I thought it was probably a single, but that's just guesswork. I take it you found no mention of it anywhere?--Tuzapicabit (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch on the UK chart figure, must have got inverted during editing at some point. The Japanese chart positions are effectively unsourced, so no way of knowing if they're actually right (and hence they'll shortly be history). Haven't found any references to a single release of "All The Kings Horses" -- given the frequency with which the Nolans did TV guest appearances in the 70s and early 80s, single promo might not have been mandatory. Gusworld (talk) 03:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese sales figures and chart numbers 

message: It says on here that Colleen joined the group in 1980. How is this possible when she is in the video for 'I'm in the mood for dancing' which was released in 1979?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.89.64 (talk) 16:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes a bit confusing since she also appears on the album cover from the same time, but according to sister Anne, Coleen didn't take part on the recordings at that time. She officially became a member around "Don't Make Waves" when Anne left.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 00:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Coleen

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