Talk:Mullah Omar

message: the bit about Mullah Omar supposedly issuing a fatwa against IS in April 2015 is obviously not from him since we know he died in 2013
since he never issued any such statement i removed it  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.186.112.132 (talk) 22:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not state that he issued a fatwa, it states that someone claiming to be him did. The discovery of his having died in 2013 means that it couldn't have been him, but it doesn't make the whole even irrelevant, the fact that it was claimed to be from him is still notable, and it is accurate because it is not stating that he actually issued it. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 11:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

text: It is notable because at the time it was widely believed to have been him, as his death was not discovered until about 3 months later. This is not some random claim, this was a widely reported and (falsely) attributed statement. If it was notable before his death was discovered, it remains notable (possibly more so) afterwords. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 11:10, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

text: Please try to Assume Good Faith. If the cited source is biased or inaccurate then that could be an issue (One which should be easy to check), but proclamations from sources claiming to be Mullah Omar, made after his death and prior to the announcement of his death, and discussion of the notability of the deception of such claims, have been widely reported, everywhere from Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/taliban-leader-mullah-omar-backs-afghan-peace-talks-150715124016867.html) to the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/07/world/asia/afghan-wars-convenient-myth-a-living-mullah-omar.html), and were a contributing factor to the notability surrounding the revelation of his death two years after the fact. If the problem is the perceived anti-IS bias, and if that bias is unique to a single biased source, then go ahead and change it, but the fact that he was successfully impersonated for years following his death remains notable, and is not by any means isolated to a single source. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 08:00, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove ISIS section 

message: I am wondering why the infobox does not mention his leadership of the Taliban, which apparently continued for a couple of years beyond his death? As a general reader, I became flummoxed reading his infobox and article lead, trying to understand the trajectory of his career. It may be hard to draw a line between his time as leader of Afghanistan and his time as emir of the Taliban, but couldn't some judgment call be made? The infobox shows his leadership career ending in 2001, but it didn't. Would someone like to tidy up the picture?--Quisqualis (talk) 03:17, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There has been confusion relating to depictions of Mohammed Omar. The current image in the info-box does not depict him. The earliest known usage of the photo stems from a 1998 BBC report which doesn't mention Omar in the article or in the image description. It depicts an unnamed Taliban fighter. Source here. When trying to ascertain whether an image is truly accurate, it is helpful to refer to the images that the Taliban have released on their website.
The only confirmed images of Mohammed Omar are here: , , , ,  (crop of previous), . The earliest image is this one, having been taken in 1978 when Omar was c. 18. I suggest anyone who is considering uploading another image to pay attention to the Afghanistan PD template and the 50 year date since publication mentioned in the template. This image will enter into the public domain in around 7 years.   
I'm going to put this list down here for unverified or incorrect images for future reference.
Incorrect photos: ,  Further information as to the authenticity of these images can be gleamed from a variety of sources that the U.S indeed used the wrong image of Omar on the initial leaflets and CIA wanted posters within the country, source here. We can see in this source (which contains all U.S PSYOP leaflets dropped during the initial invasion) that the earlier poster depicted the first image and it is therefore likely that this image was the one involving mistaken identity. The U.S then started to use the second image, however there is no source proving it is Omar and as stated above, the first known usage of this image in 1998 doesn't use it to describe Omar.
Possible photos (based on facial similarity with confirmed photos) but unverified: , , 
This 2003 Vanity Fair Article, which shows two additional photos purporting to be Mullah Omar, were given to Afghan photographer Khalid Hadi by a source who proclaimed that the photos were of Mohammed Omar: , . Despite coming from the same article, the difference between these images and  is that Khalid Hadi actually took the latter whereas the former two images weren't taken by him. 
--Donenne (talk) 15:27, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for this. I added one of your confirmed photos (the 1978 one) as a fair use upload. ― Tartan357 Talk 05:55, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Image 

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message: This page used to be in the category "Afghan activists" and then it was removed. Omar was an activist. He went from village to village organizing madrassa students (taliban) to resist the corruption of the mujahideen commanders. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 19:56, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Category:Afghan activists

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved to Mullah Omar. While the !votes for and against the move are divided, the opponents' case seems to rest only on a casual reading of WP:HONORIFICS, not addressing its "Mother Theresa" clause ("unless they are used to form the unambiguous name by which the subject is clearly best known"). Per the evidence presented, reliable sources overwhelmingly refer to the subject as "Mullah Omar" so the proposed title fits the common name and primary topic policies.   No such user (talk) 14:45, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Mohammed Omar →  – Mullah Omar is by far the WP:COMMONNAME for Mohammed Omar. According to Google Trends  the term "Mullah Omar" by far surpasses the name "Mohammad Omar" or "Mohammed Omar" since Google first started keeping track of searches, and the term "Mullah Omar" is closely correlated to the topic "Mohammad Omar", meaning that people searching for "Mullah Omar" are likely to be searching for Mohammad Omar. Additionally, Google ngrams  shows that the term "Mullah Omar" is used at a rate several times greater in print sources than "Mohammed Omar" and a variety of other spellings of that name, and this has been a consistent trend since 1997. While "Mullah" is a religious title, we generally include religious titles in article names when they are a part of the common name for the subject, like Mahatma Gandhi or Mother Teresa. Chess (talk) (please use  on reply) 03:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 5 September 2021 

message: My edits have continuously been reverted because of adding the full name of the figure. The full name of the figure is Mohammed Omar Mujahid and I have given SIX reliable sources for it, including The Independent, Observer Research Foundation, National Security Archive and few others. The IP user User: 73.71.251.64|73.71.251.64 has continuously been reverting my edits and saying that Mujahid is just a title. I don't think the user realizes that I have added 6 six sources and I can even add more that state Mujahid as part of his name. Also, the current spokseperson of the Taliban, Zabiullah Mujahid also has Mujahid as his name. I don't think the IP user realizes that Mujahid is not only a title, but a very popular surname in Afghanistan. MullahBalawar 16:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not dispute that some sources refer to him as "Omar Mujahid"; in fact, I mentioned that in the article move discussion above. However, your sources do not establish that "Mujahid" was a personal name rather than a title. Mullah Zaeef's book never once refers to him as "Omar Mujahid" but does refer to him as "Omar Akhund." Whether other Afghans have "Mujahid" as a personal name from birth is beside the point. Omar did not have it as a name from birth; he earned it. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 17:14, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for responding 73.71.251.64. Mullah Zaeef's book not refering him as Omar Mujahid does not really have to do anything since many sites label his name as Omar Mujahid and the National Security Archive's PDF which was the Washington Secretary of State, gives information about Omar where it tells Omar's ethnicity as Pashtun, title as Amir al-Mu'minin and tells his name as Mohammed Omar Mujahid and the reference I have already given on the article so that should proove Mujahid being a part of his name, whether birth name or changed name. MullahBalawar 18:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Since we agree that he is at least known as "Omar Mujahid," would you mind reducing the citations for the name to two? 73.71.251.64 (talk) 20:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mujahid being surname 

message: Again, like Hibatullah Akhundzada, we are in a position in this article where not all primary sources agree on the year of birth. This old article by BBC which is cited, does not *endorse* his date or place of birth, it merely quotes the Taliban biography. Secondly, the BBC article says  We know now that this is factually incorrect. He was a leader of the Taliban for only 17 years and he had died already in 2013. But the BBC article does not consider this fact, because his death had not been revealed when it was published, which it makes it an obsolete source. There are other primary sources also, that give other years (and places) of birth for Omar. So in my opinion, we cannot prefer just this false biography to make a big claim about his year of birth when no reliable and recent WP:secondary sources exist to confirm it. Khestwol (talk) 09:58, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine. But your other changes violating MOS:HON, MOS:CREDITS, and MOS:LEADBIO, nor your misspelling of "surprise" or the bizarre infobox statement that Omar continued to claim his position after his death, should not be reintroduced. Reverting all thirteen of my edits was not appropriate. ― Tartan357 Talk 10:04, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies about that. But as far as the year of birth, in the absence of a secondary source we may use this tertiary source Britannica. It says "born c. 1950–62?". But note that it gets the place of death wrong ("Pakistan"). Khestwol (talk) 10:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  False biography and year/place of birth 

message: I would like to know what is objectionable about any of these terms describing Omar:
* religious scholar (sources cited in the second paragraph of "Personal life")
* partisan fighter (sources cited in the third paragraph and "Mujahideen era")
* political leader (sources cited in "Leaership")
"Islamist" is a loaded term used throughout the "War on Terror" era as a slur by Western commentators, such as Daniel Pipes, to evoke a global bogeyman coming to get you. It should not be used where an alternative wording is available.
Also, what is wrong with including his date of death after the name, according to Wikipedia biography style? 67.180.143.89 (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no object to adding the year of death. However, he had not completed religious education formally and was not a " religious scholar". He attended primary and secondary madrassa and was a "cleric", yes, but: "His studies were interrupted before he completed them and he did not properly earn the title Mullah", as the personal life section says. Khestwol (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is based on what "Western commentators" have to say about a subject. So "Islamist" stays. The Taliban is overwhelmingly described as an Islamist movement by scholars. ― Tartan357 Talk 17:13, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You are mistaken as to what Wikipedia is supposed to be based on. English Wikipedia prefers, but does not mandate, verifiability from English-language sources, which is not the same as sources written by Western authors. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 18:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening description 

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