Talk:2005 Cronulla riots/Archive 1

message: These riots are not "civil unrest". Civil Unrest is something that happens before a CIVIL WAR. Please look the term up and get a definition of it before using the term. Mattrix18 01:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: New talk should go at the bottom, though it is true that all this title changing is getting confusing. Let's just leave it where it is for the moment; breaking news should be over on Wikinews, as has already been pointed out. DaveSymonds 01:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats right. But I wish people would not use the term CIVIL UNREST. Civil Unrest is what is happening in IRAQ. Any moron knows that. Mattrix18 01:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sydney Civil Unrest

message: These riots are more than just Cronulla, they have spread to other suburbs and have the potential (and probably will) to spread even further into the Sydney Metro area. I think the page title is not appropriate and should be moved to Sydney Race Riots 2005. Mattrix18 17:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Broadly agree - see my comments at the bottom of the page. XmarkX 19:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So how do we go about getting it moved? I mean does Cronulla have anything to do with Lakemba or Brighton Le Sands? Rather than just redirecting it back to the Cronulla page, perhaps the Cronulla page should be redirected to the Sydney Race Riots 2005 page. Mattrix18 23:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More than just Cronulla

message: I need to take a break now, but if someone wants to take over:
*nasty-reality-surfs-in-as-ugly-tribes-collide
*angry mob assault pair on train
*Iemma urges calm in cronulla
*Neo-nazis in beach riots
Dsol 18:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More sources

message: A good definition is given at the Anglo-Celtic article. Note, "It is also common for Australians of other North-Western European backgrounds(eg Dutch) to be mistakenly labelled Anglo-Celtic based on physical appearance". Strictly speaking, Anglo-Celtic shouldn't include mainland European peoples. Yeu Ninje 02:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We should have a catagory or article Australian conceptions of race.  Material from White (people) Wog Anglo and Skippy Australian should be included.  Its a sufficiently diverse and changing item to be seperate from White Australia Policy Yellow Peril Aboriginality or Torres Strait Islander identity.  I noticed that there isn't a Patriotic Youth League article yet.  They're moderately notable, there have been a number of PYL rallies, assaults by PYL aligned individuals and leftist counter-marches against them.  Fifelfoo 02:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Anglo-Celtic is the most accurate definition to use in absence of a better one. It envelopes more than 90% of "Aussie/Skippy" Australians. White is too broad to be used, and "Skippy Australian" is a bit of a joke. -   Gt 02:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know.  I just stick with "Anglo" without a hyphen in my own language.  I know a bunch of Anglo-Celts who get really irritated at both Anglo-Saxon as a generic, and Anglo-Celt being applied to non-Celt background Anglos.  Australian racism is a bloody mess anyway.  "Skip" might be a joke, but its active slang with a somewhat better coverage than the euphemistic "polite" attempts to cover "Anglos" as the dominant ethnic group.  I still reckon we should do an article on Australian racism/conceptions of race. Fifelfoo 02:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with Australian defintions of race is that they're all either slang or offensive words! It'd be one hell of a hard job to get a good article out of that. You can try, I'll help out if you do. -   Gt 02:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Its an important subject.  Lets try it at Australian conceptions of race and ethnicity and have a redirect from Australian racism.  Fifelfoo 02:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree with the Australian racism redirect. It directly implies that the conceptions are racist, when they are simply conceptions of race and ethnicity. -   Gt 03:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglo-Celtic 

message: "surf lifesavers" is this proper Aussie English?
--grazon 02:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is correct Australian English if that's what you mean.  The standard reference dictionary of particularly Australian English is the Macquarie, followed by reference to the OED if the language isn't adequately covered by the Macquarie. Fifelfoo 02:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "surf lifesavers" 

message: We need a section to give background to the unrest - the social situation in Cronulla, the Lebanese gangs from the west and all of it. This source might be useful -   Gt 02:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on what you want to do with it. As a blog, and an extremely biased one at that, it must only be used very carefully and to minimal extent.--cj | talk 03:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm aware of it's (striking) bias. The problem is I've having trouble finding articles that document the animosity between various ethnic groups in Sydney. Thank god I live in Adelaide! -   Gt 03:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, Adelaide has its issues. We're just better at containing them (which is not necessarily good). I'll try and find some legitimate sources for use.--cj | talk 03:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Background Section

message: *  and demands to leave the newly gang declared Arab beach,
WP:V.  This needs a reference before we can add it to the main article.  Regards, Ben Aveling 08:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  gang declared Arab beach, 

message: Is use of the {Crime in Australia} template really warranted here? Sure, there have been some arrests (no criminal convictions yet, of course), but in the scheme of things I don't see how these unfolding events really match up with the other content in that infobox. Thoughts?--cjllw | TALK 08:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime in Aust. template? 

message: Just wanted to point out that the life savers were told to leave the beach as the beach was now Arab owned.
Arab gangs have said Australia is to become an Islamic State.  The migrant gangs are everything anti-White and anti-European.
Yes, but the press doesn't write about that. It's all about the dodgy Aussies and their racist behaviour. All I want is a bit of balance. -   Gt 08:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless valid references can be provided, that qualifies as original research, and is not allowed.--cj | talk 09:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: What papers do you read? I've read a lot of papers (i.e. the press) which have commented on these supposed migrant problems in Australia and elsewhere. For example, they were a hot topic in ~2003 when there were those high profile rape case (again, there seemed to be a suggestion the entire Lebanese community was at fault even those these actions were limited to about 50 people at most who were not supported by the vast majority of the Lebanese community). These problems, especially as related to gangs exist worldwide, whether it's the Italian mafia in the US, or the Russian and Lebanese gangs in the UK, or the Chinese triad or whatever the problem of crimianl elements in migrant societies is not confined to Australia nor is it confined to Muslim or Arab socieites. I've also seen many papers etc which have commented on these riots and seem to be suggesting the Lebanese community is at fault, even tho, as far as I can tell the problem is mostly confined to the criminal/gang element of the Lebanese community which AFAIK is not supported by the vast majority of Lebanese. However although white supremists groups have played up the situtation, it does appear a significant number of the angol-celtic or whatever you want to call them participants are 'ordinary' Aussies, not white supremists. Even worse, it appears a fair number who did not participate, although I hope not a majority, are only willing to criticise the violence but appear unwilling to criticise the sentiment behind the riots. I.e. the seem to think that it is acceptable to demostrate against one element of the Australian community due to the actions of the criminal/gang element of that community. This is rather shocking to me. Even singlying out the Lebanese gangs for demonstrations seems a bit unfair to be but I find it baffling that a fair number seem to think it is acceptable to criticise the entire Lebanese community for the actions of the gangs. P.S. whites and Europeans can be Muslims who so if gangs simply want Australia to be an Islamic country, they may not be anti-white or anti-European Nil Einne 10:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just wanted to point out. 

message: "The violence was first reported in Cronulla and later spread to other dumps of Sydney."
I may be missing the meaning of 'dump' here, but is this an appropriate beginning to an article which is of fairly large social importance right now? (As far as Australia is concerned. Well no, as far as a bunch of isolated barbarians are concerned.)
:That was a large piece of vandalism, has since been reverted. Remy B 09:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dumps" 

message: The article was defaced. Lots of sex references. I don't have time/knowledge to clean it up, just wanted to let you know.
:Has already been reverted, thanks for the heads up though. Remy B 09:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That sort of thing is unavoidable with high-profile articles. Luckily, enough good editors are drawn to limit its stay to seconds. --Kizor 09:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article has been defaced 

message: * I've heard that beach-related violence isn't a new phenomenon. I'm pretty sure I saw Mambo shirts about "surf nazis" well before September 11. That's one reason I'd rather the title be 2005 Cronulla beach riots rather than race riots.
** Thugs ruled the streets, and the mob sang Waltzing Matilda supports the claim of beach violence not being new, mentioning that it existed in the early 1960s. Andjam 11:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  More background 

message: * there has been heightened concerns in Australia and other Western countries about the status of Muslim communities and the failure to integrate.  Civil society is struggling to find a response, on one hand wishing to protect its citizens that come from Muslim communities or perceived as being Muslim and on the other frustrated by the seperatist and exclusive nature of many Muslims.  
The linked article is dated Sunday October 16, 2005 and has nothing to do with these events.
No significant mainstream voices are saying that this is arising from the desire of arabs to be seperate.  Ironically, if anyone wants to keep the communities seperate, it's the rioters who want the Lebanese to stay seperate from them, and thier beach.
The universal response is that random vigilantee payback violence is a totally unacceptable response to the actions of a small minority.
Regards, Ben Aveling 11:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failure to behave like ordinary Australians. 

message: * Since the police, in the eyes of these people, had failed to deal with these gangs, they took matters into their own hands.  The ongoing and well publicised criminal activities of the so called Lebanese gangs , along with the recent high profile arrests of Muslim terror suspects in Sydney  against the international backdrop of Muslim terrorism no doubt contributed in inflaming local passions.
* The delinquency of second generation immigrants is a well studied phenomenon  and neither unique to Australia or Arab-Australians.  Comparisons can be drawn to recent riots of mainly Muslim French youth in major French cities and the ongoing Yardie (Jamaican) gang activities in the UK.  These volatile situations are open to exploitation by racist elements. 
The rioting was not by second generation french immigrants, nor did it target international muslim terror suspects.  It's fine to discuss what happened and why on this page, but the articles are not the place to be creating knowledge. We need verifiable sources.  Regards, Ben Aveling 11:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Do I see Jihad Watch used as a source there? --Kizor 12:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  We need verifiable sources.   

message: *Various anarchist, skinhead, White Nationalist and racist organisations were present at the riots, handing out leaflets advocating their causes
I don't know, I wasn't there, but most anarchist groups don't exactly have white supremacy on their agenda. Unless the anarchists were there handing out leaflets about how racism is the tool of the patriachal hegemony.. of course I understand how that could easily be misconstrued by a drunken yobbo.--stib 11:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I put in anarchist, because on Monday's Daily Telegraph, there was a photo of a banner saying "Locals only", with an anarchist symbol for the "A", if I recall correctly. Andjam 09:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  anarchists? 

message: The picture on the page shows a man with "wog free zone". I'm from the UK where wog is a term against mainly black and asian (indian/pakistani). What is its meaning in austrailia. does it mean anyone who is not white?. Was this mainly indiscrimate neo Nazi vilolence against anyone not white or a protest against the lebonese commutiy which some people have said (or bit of both. 5000 is a large number for it to be a "minor problem!"Hyperfeedback 11:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo Nazi or protest against a community? 

message: If it's a riot by white people, it's automatically a "race riot".
If it's a riot by the poor, oppressed Persyns of Color, it's a "demonstration" or "civil unrest".
I thought the paris riots and LA riot were described also as "race riots" even though from reports different races, even french parentage joined in. Hyperfeedback 12:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See Race riot's list - plenty of riots involving "persyns of color". — ceejayoz talk  14:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Tsk. Perkins of colour. 00:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Race Riot" 

message: Really? did someone count them? did they all riot? How was it determined whether the individuals were rioting? Were all the rioters 'youths'? what is a 'youth'? Were they all 'white'? Who is defining 'white'? This introduction reads more like the banner headline in a sensationalist newspaper. Markb 13:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've deleted the sensationalist rubbish already. Pay no more thought to it. -   Gt 13:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: For future edits to this page we should also be careful using the ambiguous term "white".  Under many definitions, Lebanese are "white", so this is really ethnic tensions between two different white ethnic groups, not between whites and non-whites. --Delirium 16:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "5,000 white youths rioted" 

message: some guy from the "Australia First" (?) party was on the news and had a few quotes saying how "good" the riots were... i can't find the quotes, i think they might be useful to show those types of reactions to the riots. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 13:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Try over here  Agnte 15:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  australia first 

message: I have news stills, do they come under the Tv/Film screenshot tag? If so I will upload them.
Yes they do. Go for it. -   Gt 13:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: To keep consistency in how recent events have been described (IE, Paris car burnings), and because it could be said that this encompasses more than just riots. I find the action to be repugnant, but if it's 'civil unrest' in France, it must be 'civil unrest' in Australia.
: It doesn't have to be.  Most of the Australian media is reffering to this as 'race riots' and right now that appears to be the primary cause. Agnte 14:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, "riot" really makes sense in both cases, and is what the media has mainly used in both cases as well.  Fortunately, we don't have an equivalent of User:172 editing this article to force us into a politically-correct title, though. --Delirium 16:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've move to Cronulla beach race riots, because a lot of foreign papers are using the words "beach riots" and because it's a better mental hook than just Cronualla race riots.  The French incidents were slightly more widespread and slightly more serious than this.  Civil unrest is more than just a riot or three, it's half way to revolution, which this isn't.  And I, for one, do not want to have to start talking about the Civil unrest in Redfern.  ;-)  Regards, Ben Aveling 20:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Delirum, as I stated last time, if you do not eventually review Wikipedia:No personal attacks, I may post the email that I received from Jimbo Wales stating that you were to be admonished for a prior incident pertaining to your ad homienm remarks directed toward me on the mailing list. On a related note, I requested arbitration against Silverback a couple of months ago for a similar pattern of politically-motivated personal attacks, and was successful. I politely request that you follow Wikipedia's civility guidelines, in order that the two of us do not have to go through such tedious and unproductive proceedings. 172 23:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed name change: to 2005 Cronulla civil unrest

message: *The Age: A little contemplation on the beach
*The Age: Riots fire debate on racism
*The Age: Bali, Tampa, 9/11: a potpourri of causes
*SMH: Police act swifty to curb attacks
-   Gt 14:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Latest News Articles

message: Let's not use terms like "middle easterns", eh, at the very least not when it's not in quotation marks as a direct quote from somewhere. And if we're quoting a news source, let's try and make that damned clear so Wikipedia doesn't get accused of racism. — ceejayoz talk  14:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's racist to point out superior/inferior differences between races, not to distinguish between them. It's political correctness and inappropriate writing not to do so. Otherwise the whole world will just think poorly of one ethnic group instead of being able to distinguish between the actions of both. -   Gt 14:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think this article quite at the point where we need to use  yet. I've removed it from the main page. Agnte 15:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Over here in Australia they can't stop playing it on the news but I was wondering how much the media in other nations, USA, UK, Europe, Middle East and so on are paying attention to this and what they are saying of it (Whether they think it's race-related, condemnation, etc.). It might be good to add other nation's reactions in here too, or how this has been covered by the media internationally.
:It's getting a moderate but not particularly large amount.  Wikipedia was the first place I saw it, but by now it's on the front page of BBC News Online and CNN, although in both cases not the main article.  For the US, at least, the international news is being dominated by the UK oil depot fire, a bomb in Beirut, and torture allegations in Iraq, relegating race riots in Sydney to quite a bit down the list. --Delirium 16:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the UK it was the 5th story on Sky News and there was also a mention on the BBC.  Page 5 in The Guardian. Agnte 18:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a short report on Hong Kong's Pheonix Television, which is broadcast to Taiwan and mainland China. There was some footage of mounted police dispersing crowds and discussion of "racial disturbances". Yeu Ninje 20:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question... How much coverage is this getting? 

message: What are the reasons for this riot? Is there tension within the non-libanese Sydney community towards Libanese that could "explain" it? --Abdull 16:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reasons for outbreak 

message: On December 11, 2005, a series of violent race riots occurred in several Sydney suburbs. The violence was first reported in Cronulla and later spread to other suburbs of Sydney. The race riots are continuing tonight, December 12.
Anti-Muslim sentiment has risen in Australia since the 11 September 2001 attacks in America. 5,000 white youths rioted, attacking people of Arab appearance in southern Sydney. 31 people were injured and 28 were arrested. " The violence shocked this city of 4 million which prides itself on being a cultural melting pot." .
Political Correctness the intro to the point it doesn't tell the reader anything but vague generalities. 4.250.27.239 18:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro section: who what why where response and source

message: Warren Hudson has now generously put all of his Cronulla photos under the Creative Commons attribution license.  We should probably put a few on the Wikimedia Commons and use them in the article.--Pharos 18:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Flickr photos

message: OK, this was getting no mention as the violence is still very much going on in Sydney and there are on-going "revenge" and "retaliatory" attacks, and talk of more to come, so it needs some mention.
I tried to this as best as I could, it needs a quick overview and grammar check possibly, and I'm not sure about my source formatting as I am not familiar with Wikipedia's rules. I put the links there, could someone who knows how it should be formatted please edit my sources, thankyou. Other than that, I typed it up as best as I could and quickly (I might add) as I'm busy. If anything is wrong, inaccurate or not correctly structured, feel free to change it.
Thankyou...
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.27.205.41 (talk • contribs) .
Thanks for that.  It's going to have to be split up and worked in with the other sections.  Regards, Ben Aveling 19:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  OK! Added Large Section on Further Violence and Retaliation.... 

message: The article on the 2005 riots in France are called "2005 civil unrest in France" yet these are 
called "2005 Cronulla race riots". There seems to be some inconsistency here. Barneygumble 19:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A big difference is that in France, it was people ethnically labelled and economically oppressed by the state (and by "ordinary racism" in the community due to not yet having come to terms with Algerian decolonisation), who were physically harrassed(sp?) and attacked by the state and by a vicious, racist police minister, and responded by attacking inanimate objects (cars) and police. In Sydney, it's two economically oppressed groups (i'm hypothesising here), ethnically labelled, fighting against each other instead of against the state which is doing the repression. Both cases are probably also provoked by the global context of the slaughter of Iraqi civilians, and probably more so in the Australian case, since French troops officially have not participated at all. But i don't know if any of this has to go in the title, so this is more of a rant than anything else... Boud 23:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think there is a definite need to change the name of this article. My suggestion is "2005 racial unrest in Sydney", since so much of this article is now not about Cronulla, and since alll but the Cronulla incident has not been a 'riot'. I'm actually going to go ahead and do the move - that's probably bad etiquette, so apologies in advance. XmarkX 19:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with the current title is that it is a description of the incidents.  But the current title also covers all racial disturbances in Sydney this year.  That's a lot more than the Cronulla riots.  If you went up to someone and asked "what do you think of racial disturbances in Sydney" or asked "what do you think of the cronulla riots", you would get very different answers.  The first question would drag in a lot of other stuff and might even miss cronulla, at least if you were to ask in a few weeks time.  Regards, Ben Aveling 19:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aussie vs French Riots termonology 

message: * Violence relating to access to beaches is not a new phenomenon, with violent clashes between outsiders and locals happening decades ago.
Citation needed
* On 21 December 2002 there was a vicious and violent brawl between the "Bra Boys" and a group of police officers at the Coogee-Randwick RSL club. Many police were injured.
I believe this is all true.  Everyone remember the baby in the jacket incident?  But it needs to be referenced and worked in properly.  Regards, Ben Aveling 19:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The SMH covered this yesterday in an editorial. I'll dig it up. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where to put this, and how? 

message: Can someone please fix the references?  Thanks, Ben Aveling 20:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Should be okay now I think. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 21:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: What the hell is Puberty Blues doing here? I don't think that whimsical piece of crap has any relevance. --Jquarry 22:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. It's semi-vaguely-sort of useful to explain Cronulla's surfie culture, but it's not really relevant for this article. It should be added to the Cronulla article though, some I've now moved it there instead. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 22:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puberty Blues 

message: I'm going to try making the article more into a timeline, because the moment it's not in any linear fashion and my simple brain can't easily follow it.... -- All the best, Nickj (t) 21:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That should be done now, hopefully it still reads ok. If we can use a timeline format it makes it easier to update with events as they unfold (you just make a new section near the bottom of the page, with the date as the name of the section). -- All the best, Nickj (t) 22:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Making into unified timeline 

message: Isn't it time we changed it back to "2005 Sydney race riots", and not "2005 Cronulla race riots"? Actually, who on earth changed it to "2005 Cronulla beach race riots"?
Watching international media on cabel I don't see any mention of it as Cronulla race riots, much less Cronulla beach race riots. It's denominate "Sydney race riots" by everyone, everywhere.
To be frankly honest about it, now that the violence has reached my part of Sydney, as well as the suburbs of some of my mates in Western Sydney, I don't see the point in containing it to Cronulla anymore. Fine, let's point out that the whole thing started by a mob of racists (obviously not all of them, but most) in Cronulla, but it has spread from there to South Sydney, the Inner West and Greater Western Sydney. Last night was worse, as I predicted yesterday in my post. And I know hundreds of people are preparing (on both sides) for tonight, and it's going to be spread further. Al-Andalus 22:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Personally I think once Maroubra and Brighton-Le-Sands got involved on Sunday 11 December, that it was no longer a Cronulla-only mess; and now that we have reports coming in from yet more Sydney suburbs, I think to restrict this to just one suburb seems no longer appropriate. I'd support "2005 Sydney race riots", on the (rather frightening) chance that they may happen in future years too. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 22:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, we already have 2005 Sydney race riots, which redirects here. Maybe a swap of this article and that redirect? -- All the best, Nickj (t) 23:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also, you can't restrict this to Cronulla Beach, as suggested by the current title. On Sunday 11-Dec it happened at Cronulla train station too, which is a 5-minute / 800 metre walk, through the shopping precinct, from North Cronulla Beach. If the beach and station were right next to each other, then fair enough, but they're not. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 23:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So is anyone gonna make the change? Al-Andalus 00:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Calling it "Sydney race riots" seems to imply a larger scope than simply "Cronulla". Perhaps "South Sydney", or "Shire-Area" race riots would be better? DaveSymonds 00:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  Calling the article "Cronulla beach race riots" doesn't mean the riots were limited to Cronulla beach, just that they started there before they spread elsewhere and that they are (at least nominally) about who 'owns' Cronulla beach.  It doesn't mean that all of Cronulla was affected, it doesn't mean that only Cronulla was affects, it just means that the page is about the riots that started in Cronulla.  A page called 2005 Sydney riots should be about the riots that happened in Sydney in 2005 and I'm sure that we don't want to merge this page with Macquarie fields riots?  To put it another way, the article is more about Cronulla than it is about Sydney.  Regards, Ben Aveling 00:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Article title again

message: Somebody overwrite the latest redirect with the following.  In case anything is worth merging into the existing page, I've moved it here.  Regards, Ben Aveling 00:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is perhaps notable as a background to what happened, so I have trimmed it to just the facts, found a link, and added it to the "background" section, but please feel free to remove or edit it as you see fit. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 01:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text to be merged, perhaps 

message: Substituted at 20:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment