Talk:Viking metal

message: I would never consider Empyrium anything to do with viking metal. Firstly they aren't from a viking country (being German), and while they do have the slightly blackish growls in places, two out of their four albums were entirely acoustic based.
:From what I've long heard, in ancient times at least, the Germans were culturally and religiously similiar to the Vikings. Gringo300 02:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It really doesn't matter what country the band comes from. It's the musical style that's important in determining what genre a band falls under. -D14BL0 04:31, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Empyrium?! 

message: Uhm, this writing  says
"The 'formal' origins of Viking Metal can be traced more or less to 1988 when the Swedish one man formation Bathory released their/his third album titled Blood, Fire, Death. Bathory i.e. Quorthon has incorporated mythical Norse and Germanic themes in both the artwork as well as the lyrics on the album. The music had a very epic and bombastic sound to it. Bathory has released two more albums which insipered the genre and garnered Quorthon a cult following: Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods (which happens to be my personal favourite)."
Then we look at the current version here:
"The 'formal' origins of Viking Metal can be traced more or less to 1988 when the Swedish one man formation Bathory released their/his third album titled Hammerheart. Bathory i.e. Quorthon has incorporated mythical Norse and Germanic themes in both the artwork as well as the lyrics on the album. The music had a very epic and bombastic sound to it. Bathory has released two more albums which insipered the genre and garnered Quorthon a cult following: Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods."
But maybe that writing copied WP? So I check this one older update from 2005 (the everything2 one is from 2003)  and there it hadn't been added. 
The "Interesting records" was copied too... Geez. Except moving down the Falkenbach quote it copied the whole damn thing. {sjöar}
 (cur) (last)  14:47, 28 October 2005 Chelman m (typo) (cur) (last) 14:46, 28 October 2005 Chelman (expanded on the hisotry and background)
Oh. Right. Heh. The everything2 writer. {sjöar}
: Check the user name under which the E2 writeup was posted....i think you may find a striking resemblance to my current username here. ;) Chelman 08:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference? 

message: You have forgotten to tell many viking metal band are racist /thx
: Please name some, how they are racist, and give links to articles that support your claim. Ley Shade 15:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hello 

message: Just to inform people I have merged the list of viking metal bands into this article. I began a discussion on it on the list of viking metal bands article 8 days ago, and have since had 2 agreements and no disagreements, so I have gone ahead. I have cleared up any double redirects I could find (apart from one within a deletion log, which stated it was not to be edited). I've left the list in this format, and feel it doesn't cause any problems. Prophaniti 20:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of viking metal bands merge

message: I'm placing this discussion point on a number of different lists of metal bands of differing genres, because it's a general point addressing many of them as a whole. I watch a number of metal band lists, and see an awful lot of reverting back and forth, often due to debate about what genre a band is. Think of this point as a kind of appeal for sanity.
If in doubt about a bands genre, check their wikipedia article. If they don't have one, either make one if you think they should, or take whatever sources (e.g. the bands homepage) you might normally use in such an article. But ultimately the point of this is the wikipedia articles are the first and usually last place of reference. If you feel the classification of a band if wrong, then take that to the article in question, do not start having revert wars on the lists, going back and forth. If you feel that a band is wrongly classified, then go and debate that on their page, where there are likely more people who have something to say on the matter, and where it will need changing anyway if at all. It's confusing if the lists give one genre and the main articles another.
If you have a good case for the genre being changed, then you should be able to do so on the main article of the band, and then you'll have every right to change the list article too. If we just accept that the main articles for bands are the primary point of reference for their genre, then things become a lot simpler. Someone's removed a band from the gothic metal list and you think it's not right? Go check the article. If it clearly says they're gothic metal, even in part, at some point during their career, or have influences of that, then there you go. No one can argue with that, and if they wish to they will have to take it to the main article.
The lists are there to refer people to bands based on genre, they are not the place to debate genre in the first place. There will always be basic vandalism of course, but if people take note of this point I'd hope it might lessen all this silly waring over genre. Thank you. Prophaniti 17:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Classification of metal bands in general

message: Amon Amarth are not Viking metal, they are melo-death. Their Viking themed lyrics are not enough to add them here, for if that were than we should have Unleashed added here, who I'm sure most of you would not want added to this article.
Please stop adding them to the list.
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
If Viking Metal "is a cross-genre reference usually used to describe the lyrical and thematic elements of bands rather than the music itself" how then can you say that Amon Amarth are not Viking Metal? All that they EVER sing about are Vikings and Norse mythology. Without a doubt they are one of the biggest Viking metal bands around today.
Also, if Amon Amarth don't count as Viking Metal, how can Forefather POSSIBLY count as Viking metal? They themselves state they are Anglo-Saxon metal (not Vikings). Yes, they had most of the same gods etc but the Anglo-Saxons were NOT vikings and Forefather's lyrics are not about Vikings.
"Amon Amarth are not Viking metal, they are melo-death." What does the metal sub-genre matter when talking about a label created to signify subject matter? If Amon Amarth were a Christian melo-death band you'd still classify them as a Christian metal band.
Without a doubt Forefather are Folk Metal and Amon Amarth melodic death metal but Viking metal is supposed to be a way of grouping bands together that reflects only the lyrical and thematic content, regardless of the actual metal sub-genre.
I agree with the article as a whole but feel that this opinion of Amon Amarth is wrong and am interested to know your thoughts.
81.178.249.35 16:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keep Amon Amarth out of this 

message: Even with the section on troll metal how can finntroll be coutned as a viking metal band whenthey don't even reference Norse mythology, Trolls are not specifically Norse
Personally, I wouldn't count any troll metal band as viking metal. That's why there's the distinction between troll and viking metal...subject matter.
: Finntroll have done viking metal... jakens tid album. that makes them viking metal. (Sunsetterxxx (talk) 02:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finntroll? 

message: Troll metal redirects to Folk metal currently, should probably redirect here since it has a subsection here? 212.111.9.59 17:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually considered that. But look above at the Fintroll section; as far as I know, both "viking" and "troll" metal are forms of "folk" metal. Whereas viking metal has quite a large number of bands in such a thing, I think it might deserve a genre of itself, sort of like melodic death or whatever... So don't really know. Perhaps troll metal would be better linking to folk metal. Or even viking metal being a subgenre of folk metal. --Dayn 03:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Troll metal 

message: This article is not written in the usual format for a genre of music. I recommend making the article's appearance more like Heavy Metal, Punk Rock, Grunge, or any other featured article for a genre of music. Savagepine 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Format 

message: Would anyone oppose a merge with Vikingarock?  I'm not formally proposing one yet because I'm not sure whether or not there is a distinction.  Heather 00:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind; they apparantly are different.  See Talk:Vikingarock.  Apologies for the confusion.  Heather 11:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge? 

message: Why is Wintersun always called Viking metal? Although I don't know too much about Viking metal, I know that one of the main requirements to be classified Viking metal is to have lyrics, ABOUT VIKINGS. Jari's former band may have been Viking/Folk, but it doesn't mean Wintersun is. Listen to it... there is NO mention of vikings, viking activity, or Odin and the gang. I'll leave it be for a few days, and if no one objects, I'll remove it. WinterSteel 20:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wintersun 

message: :Image:Bloodfiredeath.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Bloodfiredeath.jpg

message: A good number of the bands listed as Viking Metal aren't. If there's going to be so much discussion of this, with no agreement whatsoever, why not just remove the list of bands? It's not informative as it is anyway.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.129.97 (talk) 14:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Band list 

message: Hello, Viking Metal is NOT a fucking genre.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.150.240 (talk) 17:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm, it's not trash, it's THRASH.  MrBook (talk) 15:35, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: oahh people wake up!.. 

message: I don't know exactly what this means. Is it referring to Oseberg? I didn't want to add a link to there without being sure. Jes Suis Muzzy! - Bonjour 00:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Oseberg-art?

message: First, why is the "v" in Viking metal always capitalized?  In other articles they don't and treat the word as they would any other genre (i.e. black metal, death metal, etc.).  I'm guessing it has something to do with it not being just a noun or something.  But I don't understabnd as of yet why it can't be "viking metal" as opposed to "Viking metal" when it's in a sentence.  Secondly, this article needs more.  Sure more info and stuff would be nice, but one or two pictures would be good.  Probabaly a pic of the Blood Fire Death album or Hammerheart, seeing as how those are those are the first (V?)viking metal albums.  Lastly, what's up with the (v?)Viking metal band list?  It looks nothing like the other metal band lists such as the list of thrash metal bands, the list of black metal bands, etc. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 20:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Viking is always capitalized because it is the name of a group of people. See the article for Viking. That is the same reason why Celtic metal and Christian metal are always capitalized as well. As for the list of Viking metal bands, I was the one that recreated the list and I simply followed the format that I used when I redesigned the list of folk metal bands. I believe the advantages of this format are self-evident: you have details for each band on their country of origin, year of formation and debut album. You can sort the list by any of those criteria so that you can see at a glance all the bands that come from a particular country or get a chronology of when the bands released their debut album. Most importantly, the list includes a space where we can add references for verifiability. That column can also be used for notes where we can add more details. It is not necessary to mention in the lead section that Viking metal bands mix the genre with other styles as you've done when we can go as far as to specifically mention those other styles in the notes column as I did for the folk metal list. --Bardin (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok thanks for the answers.  You definitely answer them all to my satisfaction. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 23:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important questions to all 

message: This is a common element among Viking metal bands.  I think it's interesting to note one thing, though.  Viking metal has stylistic origins in black metal (primarily because of Bathory) and yet there are many Viking metal bands today that not only combine elements of both Viking and black metal but instead Viking metal and death metal (or melodeath).  Amon Amarth does this (thought they are more melodeath than anything else).  A prime example would be Ensiferum, though.  They are Viking metal and have no hint of black metal in their music at all.  Mostly they have hints of melodic death metal in their music. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 19:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any common element among Viking metal bands aside from the lyrics? A review of a Bathory album on Allmusic.com describes their Viking metal as Wagnerian lengthy epics with orchestral arrangements, chorused vocals, and ambient keyboards. Do you think these are characteristics of just Bathory and maybe a few other bands or are they characteristics of the Viking metal genre as a whole? As an aside, I've noticed you've changed the stylistic origins from folk metal to folk music. I agree that Viking metal does not originate from folk metal but I don't really think it originates from folk music either. Probably best to just get rid of that unless you know something I don't. I think black metal is the only genre that should be included as a stylistic origin. Maybe add death metal too. Thoughts? --Bardin (talk) 14:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fusion with other genres 

message: This article needs a lot of work. I'm aware it's been nominated for deletion before and the result was to keep. Having looked over the archived debate, there wasn't an overwhelming cry either way.
I'm not here to call for it to be deleted, but rather for improvement: it needs more sources, good ones. Thus far, all we have are some reviews from allmusic and a handful of internet ones. To me, that's not really enough to warrant an article. As such, in my personal opinion it should be made a redirect/merged, most likely with folk metal. This is also my opinion simply given my experience of heavy metal music in general.
However, I'm not moving for that, not now anyway, because I recognise that the article may be worthwhile and salvagable despite my current-held view. So here's a request for folks who genuinely think this article should exist: find some more sources. No, that doesn't mean just go on allmusic and find a bunch of reviews mentioning it. I mean more sources, ideally published ones, that acknowledge the genre (as opposed to simply using the term. Some places with use the term "pirate metal", it doesn't mean they're genuinely putting it forward as a genre).
A quick rundown of the sources: ruling out ones that are either broken links or not reliable sources, we have two of allmusic's journalists using the term, and Metal Observer, which may or may not be a RS, I'm not certain. 2 journalists and an iffy webzine isn't anywhere near enough. Prophaniti (talk) 14:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there are other reliable sources... the term appears to be used by Rockdetector as well as shown here, here and here, amongst many others on the List of Viking metal bands page. Rockdetector is a pretty decent reliable source for music articles like this, owing to the content of the site being published by independent third party sources (in the case, Cherry Red Books), as shown here. It seems unlikely that further print sources like magazines could not also be found. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and try looking for references using a Google Books search, as here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A plea for improvement OR deletion 

message: The intro to this article states that Viking metal is a "lyrical theme" characterized by, among other things, its fast pace and keyboard-rich sound.  Obviously this is ridiculous and makes no sense.  I'm not going to change it because I have no desire to get into an edit war with scene purists who think all their opinions are facts (been down that road before... oh lordy), but if we HAVE to include this assertion that Viking metal is not a subgenre, surely that can be conveyed in a way that makes sense.  MrBook (talk) 15:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're absolutely right. That is ridiculous. Besides that, Viking metal is a real subgenre of music. It definitely overlaps with folk metal, but it has specific elements and a sound. Navnløs (talk) 16:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro makes no sense 

message: The addition of folk metal as a origin is continuously reverted from the infobox, even though About.com clearly indicates that the two are related: .--¿3family6 contribs 12:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Folk metal didn't even exist at the time viking metal was first time performed. First viking metal without the combination of any other genre was the year 1990 when bathory put out an album named hammerheart. First folk metal without the combination of any other genre was 3 years after that in skyclad's album called jonah's ark. Besides, viking metal does not have elements of the folk music that you can hear in folk metal, viking metal uses elements of nordic folk music which is different then the "normal" folk. 93.138.114.108 (talk) 23:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I realize that now, after burning my brain out half a day in research and updating the article. If anything, Viking metal inspired folk-metal, and now Viking metal is considered a type of folk-metal. The same thing happened with symphonic black metal setting the stage for symphonic metal, which symphonic black metal is now considered a subgenre of. Very confusing.--¿3family6 contribs 00:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Both are independent. Folk Metal comes from Skyclad, Viking Metal comes from Bathory and Enslaved; Cruachan (Folk/Pagan Metal) was also inspired by bands like Bathory as well as by Skyclad and a Folk Rock band called Horslips (reference). And I would like to see references for “symphonic black metal setting the stage for symphonic metal” (interviews with the members, they should know best what inspired them); I know Nightwish members played in some Viking band called Darkwoods My Betrothed first, but that doesn’t mean Nightwish was inspired by Viking Metal. And I doubt Therion’s stylistic change was inspired by bands like Emperor either. --217/83 06:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, you know more about it than I do.--¿3family6 contribs 13:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don’t really know about Symphonic Metal. According to Beethoven in America, “Blackmore’s Rainbow, for instance, has been considered hard rock, heavy metal, and at times symphonic metal”, and this is a band obviously even older than Venom. And Within Temptation played Gothic Metal (which has its roots in Black, Death and Doom Metal as well as in Gothic Rock) in the beginning, then turned to Symphonic Metal; so you have a stylistic change here. I mentioned Nightwish’s roots in extreme Metal (I think one member also played in Impaled Nazarene), but that doesn’t say anything about the musical roots; according to Black Sabbath and the Rise of Heavy Metal Music, the band has “sought to build on the pseudo-orchestral work of Black Sabbath and Judas Priest by developing a style that may be termed ‘symphonic metal’”, and the band’s official biography states that the band had a “background in mood music”, which the German press didn’t know when labelling Oceanborn as “melodic power metal with awe-inspiring female opera vocals, or simply regarded it as a masterpiece that redefined heavy metal as it was known”. The biography also states that “[a]long with Therion’s Theli, the album came to be known as one of the cornerstones of the emerging genre of symphonic metal” (for Therion’s influences, see the official biography and this interview with Johnsson, this is somehow interesting, too). --217/83 09:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

text: That's what's wrong with wikipedia, nobody researches anymore, everybody puts the first thing they find, by the way great job. The article is starting to grow, last month I looked at it and it was tiny, many users wanted it deleted, but now it's decent. Keep up searching, I'll do the same thing. It can get a lot better. 93.138.114.108 (talk) 10:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You should take a look at the two extensive sources I found, the book by David W. Marshall and the thesis paper by Aaron Patrick Mulvany. Those are a gold mine, there is so much more in those that I didn't put into the article. I'm so glad I found those two sources, and there may be more like them.--¿3family6 contribs 13:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Please explain how this master's thesis of all things passes WP:RS? That strikes me as total nonsense. I've seen this one cited somewhere else recently, hence my familiarity with it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn’t surprise me that you write “total nonsense” although I tried to explain that to you. And I know what other article you mean by “somewhere else” since I was involved. --217/83 06:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

text: Hmm, I wasn't aware that Masters theses generally aren't reliable, but apparently they are. Well, that's great, after I put in all those hours of work I find that one of my sources is probably not reliable. I'll run a citation index check on the one used in the article and the one listed above.--¿3family6 contribs 17:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Okay, results were disappointing. With Aaron Patrick Mulvany's article, all I found was an archived discussion that listed his work as a recommended source for a college course. Not exactly substantial academic influence, but better than nothing. With the Lorin Renodeyn thesis, I don't even know if it is for a masters or a doctorate, but my intuition says it's a masters thesis. I couldn't find anything about this one. But with both of these sources, I don't think we should automatically rule them out, as the heading for the reliable sources guidelines page states: "This page documents an English Wikipedia content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." In this case, both of these sources due extensive scholarly research, and the subject of this article is not a hard science, it is a softer subject of popular culture. Using these sources would not be detrimental to this article, and would certainly help improve it.--¿3family6 contribs 17:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeees, I'm aware of WP:IAR, but some of the material you're using from these sources is decidedly controversial... "sea shanty" as a stylistic origin? Come on. I'm prepared to not completely rule them out so long as we're not using them to make claims that essentially aren't backed up elsewhere. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of this Viking stuff sounds obviously “Pirate song”-influenced, which means the musicians were influenced by “‘sea shanty‘ as a stylistic origin’” at least for those bands. See Mulvany for that. --217/83 06:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

text: That's fine, I'm sure we can work things out regarding specific claims. Should the sea shanty info be removed completely, or should it just be talked about in the one section?--¿3family6 contribs 23:07, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folk metal 

message: Okay, as debated above, much of the info on this article is from a Master's Thesis. Generally, an Master's thesis is unreliable if not published by a third party source or cited extensively in academic literature. However, there is a bit of ignore all rules here, as this is a music article, not a science one. So what content should be included, and which content shouldn't?--¿3family6 contribs 20:07, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: According to what I think of how this project misuses the term “reliable” in this context (see my talk page among others for more information), you can guess that I accept this as a reference; I actually used this while editing the Mayhem article, but it wasn’t accepted for the reasons you mentioned. So wait for a third opinion. --217/83 21:47, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info from Master's thesis 

message: I have recently re-worked the introduction paragraph of the Viking metal page. I felt the musical style was barely touched in the lead, and could go a bit more in-depth, so i collected and simplified sourced quotes from the 'characteristics' section of that page and reflected them in the opening paragraph. The lead now has a better grip on the music style, while still mentioning that lyrical themes are important to the genre. The article is now more accurate.
However the author of the original lead felt that my lead contradicted his personal opinion of Viking Metal, so he reverted it back to the his paragraph, where he makes it clear that he thinks Viking Metal is based around lyrics, where we have countless sources that say otherwise. Sources that i have used to write my intro. Now we have another one of those edit wars.
If you have a problem with the lead, express it here below before anything is changed, we can discuss it logically without engaging in a pointless edit war. Conclusions based on edit wars always turn out extremely unbalanced and contradictory.122.57.186.150 (talk) 07:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, it was not my intention to impose my personal opinion of what Viking metal is on the page. Frankly, I'm not sure exactly what it is beyond a specific cultural movement. My contention was the shift in focus from the lyrical content and other thematic material to the sonic qualities of music, when the sources clearly indicate that the lyrical and thematic material is the most unifying factor in Viking metal while the music is more difficult to pin down. I kept your additions, but shifted the focus in the lead back to the lyrical content. Can you please list the "countless sources" that indicate that the sonic qualities of the genre are more important than the lyrical focus? There are sources in the article that discuss sonic traits of the style, but they are not conclusive, and sometimes even contradictory (for instance, Deena Weinstein notes as frequent use of folk instruments, while Aaron Patrick Mulvany says that Viking metal avoids "non-standard" instrumentation). The one thing that all the sources seem to agree on is that Viking metal is a specific cultural expression and identity that arose from, though is not entirely limited to, extreme metal, particularly black metal, in the Nordic countries and spread from there.--¿3family6 contribs 15:15, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

text: You need to avoid your personal opinion and original research. At WP we include only what is found in reliable sources. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

text: I included death metal in the origins parameter because of this statement in the article: "The music derives from the also Scandinavian-coined genres of black and death metal." I agree that Amon Amarth and Unleashed came after Bathory. But Bathory itself is often labeled "death metal" (the terms "black" "death" "thrash" and "power" metal tended to overlap quite a bit until the 90s, so it's not that inaccurate a label). Furthermore, Viking metal continued to develop into the mid-1990s, at which point Unleashed and Amon Amarth were at it. The "origins" aren't limited just to Bathory, but other bands considered pioneers of the genre during its development during the 1990s. This is similar to how Immolation and Cannibal Corpse, among others, are considered pioneers of death metal, even though Death had been playing the style for almost five years before those bands formed.--¿3family6 contribs 04:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

text: I like the changes, I just cleaned up the grammar. I'm glad that we were finally able to reach a compromise.--¿3family6 contribs 16:57, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The intro. 

message: Three minor points about a minor line in the article:
 The line in the article was added in this edit by , and is supported by Trafford & Pluskowski 2007:
First, there's a list of 13 album covers that show the helmet at Sutton Hoo helmet#In popular culture, and it's backed up by a source (link) with images of all of them. Just thought you might want to point to one as an example, or use the additional source. (And if you happen to know of any additional album covers with the helmet, please let me know!)
Second, the Viking Age began at the end of the 8th century (793 per this article), while the Sutton Hoo ship-burial dates to the early 7th (perhaps 625) and is Anglo-Saxon rather than Viking. Is there a certain looseness of the term "Viking" as it is used in Viking metal (cf. Trafford & Pluskowski 2007, p. 65: "Frequently [Viking metallers] have read extensively, if uncritically"), and if so is it worth mentioning?
Third, the line in the article is a very close paraphrasing of the source. Might be worth rewriting it to make it less derivative.
Anyways, minor points about a minor line like I said, and congrats and the new FA status. Cheers, --Usernameunique (talk) 07:23, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are great points. As for the first, Rate Your Music is an unreliable source, as it is user generated, but I should look to see if there is a more reliable source that lists the album art. If so, I could put that as a note in the article. As to the second point, I agree, the Sutton Hoo helmet isn't strictly Viking in the sense of the Viking Age. However, I'm not sure if the sources go into that. I'll have to look through them again. The term "Viking" in Viking metal can be loose, depending on who is using the term. Bands like Moonsorrow bring in lithic-era imagery, and Korpiklaani and Turisas deal with Sami culture and shamanism, and yet are considered Viking metal even though the bands themselves don't particularly care for that label. So, the definition of "Viking" in this context is difficult. Lastly, I'll work on amending that prose.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 06:03, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good, thanks for the edits. I disagree, however, that in this context the Rate My Music list is an unreliable source. To borrow your own language from this page, "with both of these sources, I don't think we should automatically rule them out, as the heading for the reliable sources guidelines page states: "This page documents an English Wikipedia content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." In this case . . . the subject of this article is not a hard science, it is a softer subject of popular culture. Using these sources would not be detrimental to this article, and would certainly help improve it." Keep in mind the context of the citation: a random aspect of popular culture. A list of album covers featuring a certain helmet is unlikely to be found on jstor. More to the point, the linked cite shows its work; all 13 album covers are depicted there, and each clearly shows a rendering of the Sutton Hoo helmet. This is something not done by Trafford & Pluskowski, and I think the Rate My Music list is thus actually more reliable on this point than Trafford & Pluskowski. Reading the source (the Rate My Music page), do you have any reason to question its assertion? Does it help improve the Wikipedia article ("not be detrimental to this article, and . . . help improve it" in your words)? Personally, I think the respective answers are clearly no, and clearly yes. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Rate Your Music list certainly has good information, I agree. However, it is a user-generated source, which is completely unacceptable. It is true that I think the bar of reliability is more flexible for this subject than it would be with a hard science, but sources still need to be published through an independent party and have some editorial oversight. A Master's thesis does meet both requirements, though the review is not as rigorous as it would be for a PhD, and both Master's and PhD theses are considered to be partly primary sources. Per Wikipedia guidelines, "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Mulvany's thesis does have a very significant influence on metal studies, particularly Viking and pagan metal research. I've seen other Master's theses that have come out in recent years, but I haven't used them because they do not have the influence that Mulvany's thesis did.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 06:03, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sutton Hoo helmet 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: has challenged the statement in the lead "Many scholars view Viking metal and the related black, pagan, and folk metal genres as part of broader modern Pagan and neo-völkisch movements...", arguing that this needs a source. This statement IS sourced, it is asserted in several sections in the article and citations are given to those sources. The lead is intended to summarize. The connection of these mentioned genres to neo-Nazi and racist sub-groups of  Odinist and Rodnoverie movements (all of which are neo-völkisch) is mentioned several times, with citations. The lead is summarizing those mentions. The latest statement from User:Korn "A SUPPOSEDLY existing reference in SOME UNNAMED source at SOME point in the page dealing with a single is NOT a citation for a broad-stroke statement about an entire genre." is not a correct summary of the issue or of the article content. The references ARE cited, the citations NAME the sources, and the sources make statements about the genre as a WHOLE. A read of the article will demonstrate this. I will quote the most relevant sections:
"Extreme and obsessive loathing of Christianity had long been the norm for black and death metal bands, but in the 1990s Bathory and many other bands began turning away from Satanism as the primary opposition to Christianity, instead placing their faith in the Vikings and Odin.[98] Many artists claim affiliation to the modern Pagan religion of Heathenry, treating Christianity as a foreign influence that was forcibly imposed, and therefore as a wrong to be righted.[98]
Some members of the Norwegian black metal scene were motivated to take violent action against this influence – for instance, the church burnings by black metal musicians Varg Vikernes, Samoth, Faust, and Jørn Inge Tunsberg, among others.[99] While most bands or individuals did not go that far, an undercurrent of racism, nationalism, and anti-Semitism continues to permeate parts of the black metal scene.[100] Many Viking metal artists, however, including bands such as Enslaved and Einherjer, simply express interest in Vikings and Norse mythology and entirely reject the Satanic inclination of black metal, writing almost exclusively on Norse themes, without any racist or anti-Semitic undertones.[101] Whereas black metal during the 1990s took a militant and destructive stance toward the status quo, Viking metal looked to the past and took a populist, anti-system approach which eschewed violence.[102] Viking metal is both pre-Christian and post-apocalyptic – it looks to a pre-Christian past and imagines a post-Christian future.[103]"
"In Trafford and Pluskowski's opinion, Vikernes' beliefs, which had culminated in the burning of several churches, including the twelfth-century Fantoft Stave Church in Bergen, reveal the confused nature of ideas about Vikings in the Norwegian black metal scene. They note, "His tastes seem originally not for the unmediated medieval itself as for J. R. R. Tolkien: he adopted the name 'Count Grishnackh', based upon an orc in The Lord of the Rings, and named Burzum after a Tolkienian word for 'darkness'."[125] They postulate that only in retrospect did Vikernes "cloak his actions in an Oðinic garb and claim the motivation of an attempt to restore Norse paganism for his church burning".[101] While in prison, Vikernes released the book Vargsmål, which Trafford and Pluskowski call an echoing of the Hávamál, though with "an eye on Mein Kampf".[101] According to Trafford and Pluskowski, "proving both that it is not just the early medieval past to which he looks for inspiration, and that he will use any historical weapon at his disposal to offend Norwegian liberal opinion, it is notable that he has recently added the name Quisling to his own, and is even attempting to claim some sort of kinship to the wartime collaborator".[101]
Vikernes himself has connected the church burnings to an idea of resurgent Viking paganism. The first such burning, that of Fantoft Church on June 6, 1992, was thought by many to be related to Satanism, since the burning occurred on the sixth day of the week, on day six of the sixth month and was thus a reference to the Number of the Beast.[126] Vikernes contends that the date June 6 was really picked because the first recorded Viking raid (upon Lindisfarne) occurred, according to Vikernes, on June 6, 793.[127][c] Quorthon acknowledged that nationalist elements had always been present in the Viking metal scene, and, in the early 1990s, these elements hardened into explicit racism and anti-Semitism, particularly among Heathen adherents.[130] However, by the late 1990s, Viking metal pulled back from the neo-Nazi direction toward which it was headed, once many musicians from the Oslo scene died or were jailed.[130]"
"Catherine Hoad finds the issue of national and racial identity central to Viking metal. For instance, she writes that when Trafford and Pluskowski claim that Manowar could not claim religious or racial identity with the Vikings when the band had a lead singer with the "'less than wholly Scandinavian name of Joey di Maio', [Trafford and Pluskowski] are approaching a more complex and racially-charged issue than their offhandedness would suggest."[151] While Viking imagery may be readily appropriated, according to Hoad the definition of a "true" Viking is quite rigid, a rigidity which non-Nordic, and especially non-White, musicians must contend with.[151] As an example, she cites the Brazilian band Viking Throne, which claims legitimacy through European ancestry and historical references to explorations of South America by Nordic countries,[151] and quotes their front-man, Count Nidhogg: "Some people understand perfectly that it doesn't matter where you live, what's really important is your heritage and ancestry. Even living in a South American country as Brazil we all have European blood."[152] Hoad argues that Viking Throne illustrates the cultural importance of claiming Viking ancestry, a culture that operates on largely geographic lines. In contrast to Viking Throne, she cites the band Slechtvalk, which is well known for its brand of Christian Viking metal, but is rarely criticized as inauthentic by the scene.[153][e] Hoad speculates that the European ethnicity of the band is enough to compensate for its otherwise counter-intuitive music.[153]"
"A third example of the influence of Viking metal on pagan metal is the national socialist black metal band Graveland from Poland, which on its second album, Thousand Swords, released in 1995, featured a variety of folk styles mixed in with the band's black metal sound, and introduced lyrics about Polish history and Slavic gods.[157] Viking metal has also influenced the Russian Rodnoverie movement, particularly the texts of Varg Vikernes, many of which have been translated into Russian.[159] Though some of his readers within Rodnoverie distance themselves from the racism and political statements within Vikernes' work, other followers have embraced racist and National Socialist ideas. [159]"
Those examples above demonstrate the connection with neo-völkisch movements for the GENRE. Additionally, although not discussed in this article, Heathenry as a whole is völkisch in origin. Since it appears that it's specifically the term "neo-völkisch" being used as a summary (which is shorter than saying "neo-Nazi, racist Odinic and Rodnovery movements,  and racialized medievalism"), I will mention the term by name from a source already given in the article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:32, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: See this revision, which hopefully will settle the dispute.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Associations with neo-völkisch movements 

message: Why should we keep in the lead the ridiculous claim that Burzum, a trad black metal band, is somehow a "Viking metal" band, if it only mentioned in one source? Why not tell instead about the actual further developement of the genre, where it blended with Folk mertal? 
Overall, the article is terribly one-sided, full of hate and mockery against musicians, and attempts to paint them as nazis or freaks. Beaumain (talk) 06:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burzum as "Viking metal"