Talk:Israel and the United Nations/Archive 2

message: The page Talk:Israel and the United Nations was not moved along with the article page. Apparently only an editor can do this (why? I don't know). I requested this move, it will take a few days. Emmanuelm 12:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

message: I posted the rest of my rewrite of this article. It was a learning experience for me, with all the limitations of the NPOV and NOR policies. I make no secret that I hate these policies, but we all have to accept them or shut up, so I did my best. It's all yours now! Emmanuelm 12:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite of the rest of the article

message: Seeing that there are attempts going on to re-write this article, it needs pointing out that there are glaring problems with the current version, two just in the first paragraphs of the first section "The early years".
1) - The first statement is false, since the "The idea of a Jewish state in Palestine" did not receive any "international support" at any time until 1947. The 1922 resolution was to "secure the establishment of the Jewish national home" (as we say). The Mandate authorities were certainly were not in favour, they'd decided (1939) to bring all immigration to a halt. What we've written looks like propaganda on behalf of Israel.
:In 1922, the League of Nations was the only body that could claim to speak on behalf of the world. It called upon Britain to establish a "Jewish National home" (read Jewish state). This, PR, constitutes international support. What Britain thought of it is a different matter, discussed in the next sentence. Emmanuelm 13:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (copied from User talk:Emmanuelm) I can see serious flaws in the article as it stands eg "The idea of a Jewish state in Palestine received its first international support within the 1922 text of the creation of the British mandate of Palestine by the League of nations". The idea of a "Jewish state" never received any international support (that I'm aware of) until 1947. Certainly not from the British, who made it very clear that there'd be no "state as Jewish as England was English", and by 1939 realised that the immigration was disastrous and must stop. (I'm sorry to hear that the behaviour of Israel had such a disastrous effect on your life in your native land). PRtalk 19:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PR, I already answered above five days ago. Again, stop whining, take your pen and show us how to do it! Emmanuelm 14:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Before editing the text, you may want to read about the 1938 Woodhead Commission and the 1939 St.James Conference which gave us the White Paper of 1939 which concluded: "The objective of His Majesty's Government is the establishment within 10 years of an independent Palestine State (...) The independent State should be one in which Arabs and Jews share government in such a way as to ensure that the essential interests of each community are safeguarded.". In other words, the British rejected the conclusions of the Peel Commission which called for a two-state solution. PR, what part of this sentence do you find "absurdly misleading"? "Propaganda" for what idea? Nevertheless, I do not think that this discussion belong in the article since the League of Nations was not involved and the UN not born yet. It belongs to the History of the Arab-Israeli conflict (I notice it is absent there). Emmanuelm 13:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: PR, I really do not understand your criticisms. I think you mistake brevity for ignorance, but this is secondary. The important part is that Wikipedia is not about complaining, it is about taking a pen and showing others what you mean. Go ahead! Emmanuelm 12:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PR, I see where you are coming from. So many sources do have implicit Zionist assumptions,  but some of these things are very hard to write about comprehensibly, concisely and neutrally.  Genuinely, scrupulously, thoughtfully neutral sources are extremely scarce, though I've added one to the references. The mandate being support of a Jewish state? - well the answer is yes and no.  The Brits certainly knew that that is what the Zionists had in mind eventually, and that that was a  possible outcome, even thought both denied it officially.  Both official views and real understandings are important.  The mandate document and the mandate administration was ambiguous and selfcontradictory, and the Zionists managed to resolve the ambiguities in their favor.John Z 08:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Severe factual problems with this article. 

message: By the way, I think the anon removed the map, because it is a very crappy map.  It makes the proposed Arab state far too small and grossly distorts the shape.  There used to be a reasonably accurate similar map in these articles, dunno when and who messed it up.  Someone reasonably removed this map from the GA 181 article, too.John Z 00:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: John Z, thanks for your sharp eyes! It turns out that the map :Image:UN-Partition Plan For Palestine 1947.png is a malicious distortion of the original map :Image:UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947.png in order to make the Jewish partition look larger. The original 1947 map is available from the UN for all to see & compare. User:Dbz100 is probably the source of the distorted map. He replaced the original map with his creation in this article on Sept 27 2007. I missed that edit until your comment today. I reverted it and requested that the distorted map be deleted. Emmanuelm 15:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the compliments and doing the work and fixing it.  The really sharp eyes belong to the anon here and Andras schweitzer  in GA 181 article, who first saw it. Lots of people like to play silly and malicious games, sometimes they are successful for a long time.John Z 19:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map of 1947 Partition Plan

message: Two issues need to be resolved in this article: due to a recent page move, it has a new title that is controversial and due to several edits expanding the scope of the article, it may be desirable to split. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: HG, 1) the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so mediatized and emotional that there is simply no one who could be perceived by both parties as being neutral, 2) this might be why peer review books & articles about Israel, Palestine and the UN are very few, and 3) I disagree that the opinion of some ivy league pencil pusher is worthier than the opinion of a UNSG or a head of state. Nevertheless,  the spirit of Wikipedia is not to complain about someone else's work but to edit it yourself. Please show us what you mean. Emmanuelm 13:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While the peer-reviewed writings may be few, I'm simply pointing out WP Policy that they are preferred over even UN sources. They're "worthier" both as secondary sources and as more reliable and neutral sources. Though I'm not here to add content, I hope my process suggestions will be welcome graciously, even if not accepted. I do hope you all can find some moderately neutral sources, even if you have to work through some tertiary ones first. Thanks muchly, HG | Talk 13:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comments 

message: In the Oct 8th Haaretz, Mahmoud Zahar, foreign minister in the Hamas-led government, called on United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to quit his post "because of his full partiality towards Israel." He accused Ban of violating the rules of the international organization "by his biased attitudes towards Israel." "We follow up with a great concern the biased steps carried out by the UN in relation to Middle East conflicts," Zahar said in a written statement. 
Everyone knows this is blatant falsehood, meant as a counterpoint to the recent anti-Israel accusations by Ban and Bush. Does the NPOV policy applies to disinformation? I already included two pro-Israel accusations to satisfy the neutrality gang, despite the objective evidences to the opposite. I personally despises "neutrality" but nevertheless tried to play the game. How far do we have to go? Where is the line between a lie and an opinion? Emmanuelm 18:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Latest pro-Israel accusations by Zahar -- include or not?

message: I have removed the following text from the 'claims that UNESCO is pro-Israel' section:
:"In 2003, an exhibition of holy books at the UNESCO-sponsored Alexandria Library in Egypt included a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion next to the Torah. UNESCO issued a public denunciation of the exhibition and the book removed from the display.States Holocaust Memorial Museum, [www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007244 Timeline of Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Correspondance between UNESCO and Berel Dov Lerner, published by www.imra.org.il/"
I don't see how this is a claim that UNESCO is pro-Israel; no one is making such a claim here. Indeed, the very thought that someone could object to the removal of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion from public display as somehow 'pro-Israel' is disturbing... surely it's just being 'anti-hoax' or 'anti-racism'! Terraxos 01:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Terraxos, you are right: this was an example of UNESCO fighting anti-semitism. Those knee-deep in the Israeli-Arab conflict often fail to respect the thin and arbitrary border between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. The same goes for Wikipedia editors on the subject. Emmanuelm 13:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed from 'claims that UNESCO is pro-Israel' 

message: To the anonymous Dutch guy who made a zillion small edits today on the article : first, sign. Second, make all your modifications in one edit to facilitate their evaluation & edition. Emmanuelm 01:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Making them in lots of small edits let you evaluate each one in turn. You can the reject some and keep what you patronisingly call the "some interesting" ones. A blanket revert like you did rolling hback a couple of hours work was just astonishingly rude. 83.245.19.149 06:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear 83.245.19.149, I see you knew exactly how to recover your work and re-introduce it in the article as a single edit. I suspect you are not new to Wikipedia, only sneaky. And, on the subject of rudeness, may I suggest a quick class in etiquette?. Emmanuelm 19:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anonymous edits

message: As per the WP:TERRORIST policy, Mr anonymous Dutch removed all instances of the T-word from the text. I feel strongly against this policy but a WP article is not the place for gut feelings. Your opinion please. Emmanuelm 15:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrorist or Militant?

message: :Image:Unrwa.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 20:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Image deleted. Go bother someone else. Emmanuelm (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Unrwa.gif

message: What's with the uncoventional use of italics in the article? AnonMoos (talk) 01:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I used italics to incorporate quotes in the text instead of using the function.  What would be a "conventional" use of italics?  Emmanuelm (talk) 16:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, italics are currently used in a rather strange way which does not exactly correspond to direct quotation, and often doesn't correspond to anything meaningful at all (as far as I can see). AnonMoos (talk) 15:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I cleaned it up just for you. Emmanuelm (talk) 19:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Italics