Talk:Soviet deportations from Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina

message: Should this article also talk about the 75,000 Romanians of German ethnicity that were deported in 1944–1945 to Siberia by the Red Army or do we need another article for that ? bogdan | Talk 00:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should. It resulted in the first heavy depopulation of the southern Transylvania area and it changed heavily the ethnic composition of the main towns (Sibiu, Braşov, Mediaş). Also that moment is still strongly remembered by the peoples in that area. The article could be also made a Romanian-history-stub. Could it? -Orioane 17:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

message: Soviet Union had approved a law:"On the deportation from RSS Moldoveneasca of the families of rich people, former boyars, big commerciants". This law said that by 6 July to be deported 11280 of families, in total 40850 people. Source: Natalia Hadârcă, TIMPUL (preluare din TIMPUL, MIERCURI, 6 IULIE 2005, NR.245) --Moldo 15:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 6 April 1949

message: I suggest to move the page were it was. The article does not refer to the ethnic group Romanians, but to the citizens of Romania as of 1940, when the territories were occupied. These territories include Bessarabia, but also Northern Bukovina, and Hertza region. A title containing all that would be very cumbersome. In addition, the article also referes to Romanian citizens deported from Romania proper in 1940s- early 1950s,a nd there were many of those, including many personalities that have WP articles. It is about citizens, not ethnic groups. Also, please observe, there is and there never was a "Bessarabia citizenship". Dc76\talk 18:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But this page doesn't talks about Romanian citizens, but Soviet ones.Xasha (talk) 18:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it talks about Romanian citizens that were occupied. If the Soviets would have taken only Bessarabia, and wouldn't split it between MSSR and UkrSSR, we could have had a simpler title, but as it is, this is the only one that can cover both those that remained in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, and those that fled, and were captured in Romania proper. It is a single story about the same people: some where deported from here, some where taken from there after they fled from here. Splitting would be to create content fork. Dc76\talk 18:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time of deportation, all of the deportees were citizens of the MSSR or UkSSR, thus Soviet citizens. No info is provided for those "captured" in Romania. They are a different problem. Romanian citizens had to be ceded to the Soviets by the Romanian government. Those in the Soviet Union were at the mercy of the Soviet Authorities. The article about the deportation of Romanian citizens outside Soviet territory should cover the responsibility of  the Romanian government.Xasha (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That USSR considered them also Soviet citizens does not mean they lost Romanian citizenship, as Romania did not legally withdraw it from them. And we also would cover people arrested in Romania directly by the Soviets, which did not pass through the hands of Romanian Communist government. The arrested people were connected to Bessarabia and Bukovina - this is why they were arrested. You can have a point if you would suggest to replace Romanians with Bessarabians, Northern-Bukovinians and Hertza-regionians, but I do not see you proposing that. And this has nothing to do with ethnicity, there were plenty of Ukrainians, Russians and Jews among the deportees, actually it appears even larger numbers than their share in the population. Dc76\talk 19:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt that. A Moldovan born before 1940, and who remained in MSSR, can't just go to a Romanian police station and request a Romanian passport, as a Romanian citizen can do, AFAIK. Exactly, the legality of such an action should be discussed in a specific article, not this one. People from Bukovina can be mentioned in an article about Western Ukraine.Xasha (talk) 19:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, I am not talking about today, but about Stalin's period: 1940-1941 mainly, and also 1944-1953. My point is they remained Romanian citizens in 1940-1941, because they were no asked to reappply in 1941. Note that in 1948, Romania and USSR signed a treaty, which can be interpreted as a legal basis for citizenship issues. At any rate, everything before 1948, should get in, including Bukovina, as it was not part of Ukraine in 1941-1944, and until the treaty between communist Romania and USSR in 1948 it could have been claimed back (as for example Northern Transylvania was). At any rate, I made my point, you made yours. Let's see what the others have to say. Dc76\talk 19:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yug(1949) and Sever(1951) happened after the Romanian-Soviet Treaty.  Also the 1947 Paris Treaty gave international acknowledgement to the legality of the 1940 agreement, thus the UN accepted Bukovina( and Bessarabia) in 1941-1944 as a Soviet territory under occupation. The current title avoid such potential disputes.Xasha (talk) 20:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that there was no agreement in 1940. UN did not even exist back then. And Soviet Russia was not in the League of Nations as the civilized countries were. The current title, respectfully, is incorrect, as it should refer to people, not territory; and it is fractional: Bukovina and Herta region do fall in, as the deportations did not stop at historic border of the Bessarabia: they were conducted simultaneously, in the same days, in the entire these regions. In Galicia there were different, independent events. Let's accept it is about history, and how a country treated the citizens of another country, not about post-war events in the former country. That goes in Moldavian SSR.Dc76\talk 20:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So says the treaty, and that's kind of the fundament for the peace in Europe today. So I doubt anyone can officially reject it. Let's not talk about who was civilized and not. Remember that Romania left Bessarabia with a low alphabetisation rate and an unproductive agriculture (and no industry), things that were solved by "uncivilized" Soviets. We already have Soviet deportations from Estonia. Those people were mixed ethnically mixed. And by calling them Romanians you are dishonouring the memory of the deportees. The only time deportations in Bessarabia and Bukovina were concurrent was in June 1941, but those were also concurrent with the deportations from the Baltic states, so I see no reason for including Bukovina, and not Latvia or Estonia. Also Yug and Sever happened only in MSSR. This is about deportations of Soviet nationals, not about citizens of another country.Xasha (talk) 20:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

text:  And how about Romanian citizens on Soviet territory? According to sources, we have ca. 200,000 deported in all Stalin's years. Splitting the subject like this would be creating an obvious content fork. Flight and expulsion of Germans from Romania during and after World War II is a specialized article, it only deals with a very well defined part of this, it is a very logical subarticle of this, as there will be others, like Operation Sever and Operation Yug. Dc76\talk 18:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only Romanian citizens deported from a Soviet territory to another Soviet territory where Romanian POWs, and we already have an article about them.Xasha (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, this is exactly where we differ: I mean to say that this claim of yours is incorrect. These people did not withdraw Romanian citizenship in 1940, and they did not reply in 1941. We are not talking abuot POWs here, that is a different question. Dc76\talk 19:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: # Dc76\talk 18:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supporting the move back 

message: # Leave this page alone, and create a new one about Romanian citizens deported from non-Soviet territory after World War II. ( Or expand Flight and expulsion of Germans from Romania during and after World War II to include non-German Romanian citizens)Xasha The information about the Chernivtsi Oblast could be included along the deportations in the recovered territories of Western Ukraine ( as regions formerly under capitalist rule, they witnessed a similar epuration campaign) (talk) 18:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  And how about Romanian citizens on Soviet territory? According to sources, we have ca. 200,000 deported in all Stalin's years. Splitting the subject like this would be creating an obvious content fork. Flight and expulsion of Germans from Romania during and after World War II is a specialized article, it only deals with a very well defined part of this, it is a very logical subarticle of this, as there will be others, like Operation Sever and Operation Yug. Dc76\talk 18:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only Romanian citizens deported from a Soviet territory to another Soviet territory where Romanian POWs, and we already have an article about them.Xasha (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, this is exactly where we differ: I mean to say that this claim of yours is incorrect. These people did not withdraw Romanian citizenship in 1940, and they did not reply in 1941. We are not talking abuot POWs here, that is a different question. Dc76\talk 19:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opposing the move back 

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