Talk:Anti-Germans (political current)

message: I made an edit to clean up the categories earlier but someone reverted it- there's multiple citations through the piece linking this ideological current to the radical left, and zero to say they're somehow neoconservative. Is there anything of interest and relevance as to why this page should be linked to the neoconservative category, given there's no actual citations in the actual article? And on a related note, why it shouldn't link to other "left" wing things cited through the article, like socialism? Dreadunicorn (talk) 13:28, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: "Neoconservative"

message: This topic is so scattered, I wasn't even aware of the "organised persecution" article. "Well done" to the person who corrected this problem. --Denkmal 00:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Much better! 

message: The Anti-Germans did not call for "unconditional" support for the regime of Slobodan Milošević. (I don't know any argument for this.)
They criticise the war, because it helped the islamistic UCK and their seperistism.
The difference to the Anti-Nationalists ist, that Anti-Nationalists say, every Nation ist equally bad.
The Anti-Germans recognise differences according the form of states:
Israel ist the only state, which has a reasonable reason to exist. It is the only resort to every person persecuted by Anti-Semitism in the whole world. The world that knows Capitalism and Nations generates Anti-Semitism. That is why Capitalism and Nations should be abolished, and Israel must be the Country that exist longest.
:I concur that it would not be fair to label the Anti-Germans collectively as pro Milošević. They are a heterogeneous current and their exponents can be expected to have conflicting views on just about anything. However, the Anti-German current of the mid-90s was not the same as that of today. In the works of one of the most outspoken representatives of the then Antideutsche, Jürgen Elsässer, you find strong pro-Milošević positions, plus lots of anti-Albanian statements which in my view do not only border racist stereotypes. Elsässer has later turned his back on the Antideutsche and rejoined the more traditional anti-imperialist camp. But during the initial phase of the Antideutsche current, he has been one of the most influential figures. Also, I strongly remember the positions that the Junge Welt advocated during the war in Bosnia, 1995. (This was way before a schism in the editorial office, between the traditional East German and the post-working-class West German camps led to the eventual founding of the Jungle World weekly.) At that time, both self-styled antideutsche and anti-imperialists jointly praised Milošević and denounced all reports of massacres in Bosnia as rumours. But even today, people associated with the more "hardcore" segments of the current, with whom I have personally communicated, continue to advocate a strong pro Milošević position. So, however unfair such a generalisation may seem, there is a grain of truth. --Johannes Rohr 23:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference between Anti-Germans - Anti-Nationalists 

message: I'm not too impressed by this article. It is certainly not adequate for the average reader of the English Wikipedia, who cannot be expected to be familiar with sub-factions of the German Autonome Linke ("Autonomous left (current)"). However, it is surprising that such an article exists at all, as the "Antideutsche" represent a truly marginal phenomenon. 
Even in Germany, few people outside the radical left are aware of their existence. To put things into perspective: Most the critique voiced by Antideutsche is targeted at other radical-left factions, or even at other sub-factions of the Antideutsche current.
The first and foremost task of an encyclopaedia is to differentiate between the more and the less important. If we look at political life in contemporary Germany, the Antideutsche are without doubt of little importance.
In my view, their most outstanding feature is that they use radical-left language to justify right-wing politics. They have vigorously supported George Bushes and Rumsfeld's politics in Iraq, they have even spoken out pro Guantanamo bay, pro Abu Ghraibh. The so-called Hardcore Antideutsche (most promimently represented by the journal "Bahamas") have mostly exchanged their former anti-German convictions by anti-muslim sentiments, which includes support for and admiration of right-wing populists such as Pim Fortuyn. While they are regularly bashing moderately left media such as the daily die tageszeitung, many hail right-wing newspapers such as Die Welt, Germany's most outstanding right-wing conservative daily. To go even further: Personally, I have spoken to Antideutsche who openly favour the "transfer" of all Palestinians from "the territories" to Jordan, something, that even openly islamophobic right-wing Germans wouldn't easily demand.
However, according to my personal observations, the Antideutsche current has its future already behind them. With the war on Iraq turning more and more into an undeniable disaster, they have lost much of their former attractiveness. Many observers judge that this movement has already passed a point of no return from the bourgeois conservative, islamophobic environment, where many Antideutsche have since taken refuge...
Anyway, in short: Make it clear that this is a marginal faction, please don't make too much fuzz about it... --Johannes Rohr 22:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great to hear your opinion... Branding everyone associated with a certain opinion as right wing is probably indeed the most sophisticated form of denuniciation. But working on the article might be more helpful than that.--Carabinieri 12:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mind you, how would you label Die Welt or the current US administration? I would say, that "right-wing" is a faily appropriate, non-polemic description. Second, I did not start editing right away, because having been involved in editing :de:Antideutsche, I am well aware, how controversial and contested this topic is. Third, what also deters me from getting involved, is the current messy state of the article. Generally, this topic is better for some ranting then for serious article work. It may become easier in a few years time, if my observations are correct and this current is more and more becoming history. Adequately judging such a phenomenon in retrospect is probably easier. --Johannes Rohr 15:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: While what you wrote, is a truly authentic representation of core beliefs held in the Anti-German current, it certainly is not what I would call NPOV. With all due respect: The simple fact, that the Bush administration represents the right-of-centre segment of the American political spectre is something, that cannot be seriously disputed. I won't go into details, even though I feel that some of your above statements are gross misrepresentations. But I have been through this kind of discussions way too often, and I feel that it is nothing but a huge, fat waste of time. --Johannes Rohr 13:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Nope. This is not about good or bad, but about right and left. Why? Again, simply because it is an outstanding (although not entirely unique) feature of Anti-Germans that, while identifying themselves as "communists", they have increasingly assumed political views, which are typically associated with right wing politics. And outstanding features of a particular subject should be mentioned in the respective article. --Johannes Rohr 15:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality, accuracy, etc. 

message: It seems that the following is an Image from a demonstration of the Anti-Germans (according to Talk:Militant anti-fascism) . However, I didn't manage to find a way to make it fit nicely into the article. Can anyone help me with this?
Tal :) 15:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To include a picture requires to say what the picture shows. On :Talk:Militant_anti-fascism#Image, the image has the caption Antifa's demonstration against anti-semitism and in support of Israel, in Hamm 2004.. Unfortunately, the link given as a source on :Image:Hamm02.jpg seems to be dead. I'm afraid to just include this picture with this caption would be original research. About a year ago, there has been a lengthy discusison about a similar problem on the German page Diskussion:Antideutsche#Beanstandete_Teile. The recent stage of discussion there is (since August 2006) to remove some pictures of antigerman demonstrations from the article, with the reason given that original pictures of an event donated by wikipedians are allowed only if there has been an independent press coverage about the event. Otherwise, the picture would be original research. In our case this would mean that this picture could be included only if the article would refer to an independent source which confirms that there has been an antideutschen demonstation in Hamm 2004.--Schwalker 10:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems really abstruse to me, is anybody going to object if I include this photo?71.182.183.14 (talk) 19:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding image 

message: I think that the reference about Robert Kurz and his School is incorrect. They don't support zionism.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.18.243.13 (talk) 02:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurz and zionism 

message: It was false.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.18.243.13 (talk) 12:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference to Robert Kurz deleted 

message: I have restored the reference to Robert Kurz, and sourced it.  I don't understand why the previous user even regards it as controversial.  The support of the Krisis and Exit groups for Israel is well-known, and the third issue of the Exit journal even includes a theoretical defense of Israel within the context of an article on anti-semitism.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Negative potential (talk • contribs) 17:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference to Robert Kurz restored 

message: Am I right that the text on this banner means "German thinking is Auschwitz thinking"?  71.182.183.14 (talk) 19:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it means "Thinking (of) Germany means thinking (of) Auschwitz"145.18.233.228 (talk) 15:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.240.91 (talk) 22:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  German speaker wanted 

message: Referring to this group as leftist is incorrect, and the preface "anti-fascist", used in reference to members of the groups, is innapropriate, and an example of bias.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.82.195.134 (talk) 02:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology incorrect, biased 

message: The following paragraph was recently added here. I think it should be deleted, because it is a lot of proportion of the article devoted to something not that central. If it is included, can we have references that make it clear that Karl Rössel is actually part of the anti-deutsch movement? It also needs better wikilinks etc
A current example of anti-German (anti-deutsch) activities are the attacks of Karl Rössel against Philippa Ebene, the director of an institution in Berlin called Werkstatt der Kulturen.[http://www.bz-berlin.de/aktuell/berlin/der-kniefall-von-neukoelln-
> beunruhigt-article564377.html Rössel, the curator of an exhibition called 'Third world during WW2' attacked her because she rejected his exhibition, by claiming that she had only refused it because it showed pictures that depicted the collaboration of Arabs with Hitler. The actual reasons for said rejection were that his entire exhibition was deemed racist by Philippa Ebene because the curator was unable to distinguish which 'non-white' soldiers actually hailed from developing countries. Yet Rössel decided to claim that the real reasons were the images showing Arab collaborators. He retracted later from this claim when asked directly, but it was too late. The German press not aware of Rössel's long standing anti-Arabic feelings  Rössel claims that the centre for a modern orient is denying the impact of Arabic collaboration  had already helped him achieving something no right wing party had ever achieved in Germany, which is that Germans can now claim that they were not the main culprits of the Third Reich,  but the entire Arab world was almost equally responsible for the Shoah.
BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: do you have a reference for the claim that phrase was originally coined by the Nazis (I never came across any usage of the term anti-deutsch/anti-german in the Nazi-era context, yet)95.208.187.120 (talk) 10:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karl Rössel v Philippa Ebene 

message: "Antideutsche" or in english "anti germans" is a term that was coined by the nsdap. It is the term they used for anyone nazi regarded as an  enemy or opposed to nazi germany. Mosst prominently the resistance but also allied forces in WW2. Its a propagandistic term used against antifascist. Some antifascists took that term up for themselves saying "yes we are those you call anti germans". It might be a good idea for wikipedia not to use the term in a diffamatory way as thats where it derives from. this article really is a shame.
84.57.37.220 (talk) 00:22, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: do you have a reference for the claim that phrase was originally coined by the Nazis (I never came across any usage of the term anti-deutsch/anti-german in the Nazi-era context, yet)95.208.187.120 (talk) 10:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well the most important is missing 

message: It should be made clear, that they hate muslims and germans (themselves), but love the US, Israel, support the building of settlements, support war (even nuclear!) against Iran, oppose antiimperialism ...
I have seen these people in Vienna. They are truly evil, racist and retarded.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.36.33 (talk) 17:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like you are the evil, racist, and retarded one.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spentgrodfg3 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact the position is true, they do hate muslims and germans, but love the US, Israel, support the building of settlements, support war (even nuclear!) against Iran, oppose antiimperialism ...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.223.126.54 (talk) 10:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

text: The only mention of Islam is in the categories. If they have a position on Islam, it should be in the article. --Error (talk) 14:56, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam 

message: is this image related to this movement, or is it just snark? its categorized as "Euromasochism", not sure if this exists.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:52, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: Substituted at 17:58, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: An anon editor put this book in as a "primary source" (although of course Wikipedia doesn't do primary sources, see WP:PRIM, but they probably didn't mean primary source) because it described the Anti-Germans as racist: Harald Bergdorf and Rudolf van Hüllen Linksextrem – Deutschlands unterschätzte Gefahr? Schöningh, Paderborn 2011, ISBN 978-3-506-77242-8. I have removed it, as I looked through it and couldn't find any reference to the Anti-Germans. Does anyone think (a) this book should be on the page, and (b) the page should be included under category:racism? BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:20, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Im a German and I read the book and Anti-Germans are mentioned there and clasified as Racist.--Der Graufuchs (talk) 16:13, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've searched again, and it doesn't use the term Antideutsch or Anti-German, or the word rassist(isch). Can you point to a page number or give more info? BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:36, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racism/Linksextrem  

message: https://thecharnelhouse.org/2015/03/05/the-anti-german-ideology-towards-a-critique-of-anti-german-communism/
I don't have the energy to waste on this marginal movement in germany, currently loathed by the general left-wing and "jewish antifa Berlin" and boycotted more widely by others in Germany. Some have even worked with the AFD.
I can also recommend investigations into club/activism and culture which is the wellspring of various activisms in germany, for the antigermans this shitty clubs are called Golden Pudel (Hamburg), Conney Island (Leipzig), About Blank (Berlin), and roving parties called "love techno, hate germany":
These particular club spaces have banned the traditional scarf of the Kafiyah, provided material support to antipalestinian bigots, showed support for the recent Likud-pushed and Likud-titled "jewish nation/state law" which legitimates the exclusion of arabic culture from Israel (declassifying arabic as an official language and setting the stage for further push to destroy all palestinian culture in the region), and been implicated in numerous attacks on asylum-seekers and anti-bibi jewish-identifying israelis in berlin at protests (keep in mind antigermans are mostly demographically white germans...).
As you can see, I ghave a bit too much bias for these additions myself, but they are real things, so maybe someone else can add all this shit so we don't get the one-sided story of that exists here presently, this article is embarrassingly innacurate.
talonx 77.191.121.255 (talk) 16:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: what you fail to see is that all of this, the criticism of islam, of german nationalism, of the Palestinian nationalist movement, of regeessive anticapitalism, their support of Israel and Zionism and general sympathy to USA all of it is based on a very orthodox marxist and critical theory position.These people are NOT anarchists, Trotskyists, Leninists, Stalinists, Maoists whatsoever but really very traditional Marxists and may identify as communist, social democrat, left liberal... but usually NOT as Anti-german.A small minority did use that term and a small kinority still does self-identify as such, but the majority does not and never did and still does not like the term seeing it as a slur from outside, either from right wing or very authoritarian and dogmatic left wing groups to oust all critics as "Anti-german".Also "Anti-germans" do not want to destroy or abandon the german state by violence, most of these people would be best described as either council-democrats or even "left-republicans", they are not very militant folk.--188.100.196.249 (talk) 13:48, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A source to peruse for a critical section: