Talk:Hand evaluation

message: I am aware that there are some articles covering parts (Point count and High-card point) of this article but I believe there is a need for a single  article covering this subject in total. I hope others watching bridge articles will agree but if you don't please let me know ... I am new at this but very keen - be gentle!Abtract 22:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm grinnin'  its a pretty good presentation. Terryeo 08:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

message: Here's a simple modification that should make the LTC somewhat more accurate.
After the initial calculation, subtract one "tick" for each A, add one "tick" for each Q
and add 2 ticks for each J.  Three ticks = one LTC.
Then AKx, AKx, AKx, AKxx = 4 LTC- 4 ticks = 3 LTC - 1 tick
But KQx, KQx, KQx, KQxx = 4 LTC + 4 ticks = 5 LTC + 1 tick
And KQx, KQx, KQx, KJxx = 4 LTC + 5 ticks = 5 LTC + 2 ticks
Another suggestion is to round up with 2 surplus ticks and round down with one.
NOTE:  In the revised version, Jacks are counted in the initial calculation.
Jillbones 02:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I expect you looked at 5.3 and 5.4 in the article where you will have seen very similar improvements to the LTC method and citations as to the source. If you know publications that show this 'one third point' improvement, then you should include it in the article at the appropriate place. If, on the other hand, this improvement is your own idea or that of a friend then this would count as original research and be against policy so shouldn't be included.Abtract 10:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: LTC - one thirds

message: I'd like to direct your attention to the article on DONT, which references the Law of Total Tricks.  Clicking on that link brings the page here, which is both unsatisfying and misleading.  First of all, the Law of Total Tricks is not a hand evaluation method - simply counting the combined trumps cannot tell you if you are likely to make 3 tricks or 13.  Secondly, at the very least, clicking on the link should put you at the Law of Total Tricks section of the article.  If anyone could help resolve this issue, I should greatly appreciate it.Eljamin 18:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent idea I have improved the link as you suggested.Abtract 23:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've split the article from this one and I'll fix the link in DONT; with due respect, I think that Abtract was a bit overzealous in merging the topics into this article; by itself, the LoTT is a tactics rather than a method of hand evaluation: it doesn't say how worth is your hand but which tactics to employ in competitive auction. Plus, it's now long enough that it definitely deserves a separate page. Duja► 12:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you might like to discuss the merits of splitting it off before you do so and refain from discussing how over zealous I may or may not have been. Abtract 13:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, here I am. Actually, I only recently noticed myself (before Eljamin's suggestion) that LoTT was merged here (and I don't recall you "discussed the merits of merging before doing so", as the LoTT article had a pre-history before it ended up here, but let's leave that behind us). But I can't find a good reason why it should remain merged, as LoTT has well-defined scope outside of mere hand evaluation, as I said above. Actually, the contexts of wikilinking ("mine" was from Balancing (bridge), Eljamin's from DONT) had nothing to do with hand evaluation. Yet the reader ends up here. Besides, I expanded the LoTT article (and it has potential for further expansion), so that its backmerge here would really result in a huge article. In addition, LoTT section was in the middle of this article, right between LTC and playing tricks, which are, I think you agree, on a fairly similar line of reasoning while LoTT appear to came straight from Mars in the context. I don't mind a brief coverage about LoTT here, but not more than a sentence or two. We also have Zar Points in a separate article. (which, I still maintain, are more related with the subject of Hand evalauation than LoTT) Duja► 11:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said I am not against a separate article ... leave the old stuff here and I will cut it down and refer to the main article.Abtract 13:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK I have made it just a brief summary and linked to the main article.Abtract 13:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Law of Total Tricks 

message: The calculation of 68% uses the table on page 287 of the Official Enc of Bridge, as follows: for the trump suit declarer and dummy each hold 4 cards, leaving 5 with defenders. These will split 3.2 67.83%, 4.1 28.26% and 5.0 3.91. The contract will only succede with a 3.2 split because by definition x cards will never win a trick if there is an opposing card out. Therefore the odds of Axxx and KQxx making 4 tricks is only 67.83% ... no ruffing is possible because of the 4333 ditribution. Abtract 13:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "no ruffing is possible because of the 4333 ditribution"..??? Áre the opponents not allowed to ruff because you have a 4-3-3-3 distribution? JocK 15:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have a "got out of bed the wrong side" attitude today jock. I meant that declarer and dummy cannot ruff because they have a matching 4333 shape - of course defenders could ruff on first round with 7.0 Abtract 16:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I meant that your result "the odds of Axxx and KQxx making 4 tricks is only 67.83%" is wrong. It ignores the fact that under certain circumstances the opps can make an addition trick by ruffing. Go back to bed, you need some sleep... JocK 16:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite right I forgot that ... so point it out, but why the attitude? Abtract 17:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Math

message: The LTC section has reached sufficient size to merit its own article so I have (re)created it, and will greatly shorten the entry here. Abtract 18:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: main article status

message: This sounds interesting but I have never heard of it as such ... and I cannot find it in the Off Encl of Bridge. Anyone know how it works in practice? and has anyone a citations for it? Abtract 23:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks next edit helps but it still doesn't explain how to discover the number of controls in a hand, how to actually use the theory. According to the OEoB, controls are assumed as direct result of HCP but presumably there is more to it than that? Abtract 23:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To discover the number of controls in a hand is trivial: Controls = 2*NumberofAces + NumberofKings. According to Rosenkranz' table HCP and controls roughly relate as HCP = 2.5(Controls + 1). JocK 00:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I thought (it says it in the OEoB) but in that case how does the example in the article have any validity? Both west hand have the same number of HCP. Abtract 00:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A few more edits but it still isn't clear how a player is to discover whether his partners hand is control rich or not ... other than using a form of blackwood for example. If controls are generally dependent on hcp, there must be a method of discovery hidden somewhere. Abtract 01:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We could relate this to the Norman four notrump convention, but in most cases you don't need to know partner's precise control count. You and your partner both evaluate your own hand and convey a HCP count (where appropriate adjusted for excess or lack of controls) to your partner. What is perhaps not sufficiently clear from the current write-up is that the control count is no more than an additional metric used to adjust HCP count? JocK 02:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes the section certainly seems to have grown out of proportion to its current day importance ... I wonder if it would be better in the Slam-seeking conventions article? Abtract 10:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, relative to the section on HCP itself, it has grown too big. However, I would propose that we beef up the section on HCP first (history, context, examples, etc.), and then decide what to do. By the way: utilising control count as a metric complementary to HCP is certainly mainstream amongst expert players (not only for slam hands, but also for game-invitation hands with a fit). JocK 11:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Control count

message: I am going to re-order the sections, hopefully other editors could give me say an hour to do this - then we can discuss it, change it or revert it if that's the thought. Abtract 16:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK thanks, I have finished for now. Feel free to amend or discuss, it probably isnt perfect but I think it helps read what is becoming quite a long article. Abtract 17:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's now follows a more logical structure; certainly an improvement. You dropped the introduction to the visualisation section. (Because of its style?) The section needs some intro though. Have added one - more encyclopedic (?) - sentence. JocK 18:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good. Yes it was 'style' but I am afraid your replacement is not any better. It is very much a pov - it may be correct but we cannot put our own opinions in, just well cited opinions of (in this instance) bridge experts. I will leave you to remove it or provide a citation. Abtract 18:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, give me a bit of time to find a proper citation. Should not be too dificult. I don't think we can do without such an introductory sentence. (If you can render the sentence, non-POV, be my guest - but don't just take out.) thanks, JocK 19:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed new order

message: I propose that Honor point count be merged into Hand evaluation. I think that the content of the former article can easily be explained in the context of the latter; the merging will not cause any problems as far as article size or scope is concerned.  Newwhist (talk) 14:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A nice idea but I'm not sure I agree. Would it not be better to have an overarching article like this one (hand evaluation) and a series of spin-off articles for the major methods? This may mean reducing somewhat the content here. But to be honest I have no strong feelings ... I have added the llnk to honor as a start.Abtract (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal