Talk:Vande Mataram

message: The Muslim opposition/allergy to the song was not, AFAIK, based on the religious symbology, but on the potrayal of Muslims, which they felt was very, very negative.--iFaqeer 22:30, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
: The lyrics, especially as crafted for singing, were bereft of any mention of Muslims. You might be talking about Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay's book, the one in which it originally appeared.--LordSuryaofShropshire 22:41, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
::No I am not. Vande Mataram is very much part of the national myth of Pakistan as an important symptom of why Pakistan was necessary.--iFaqeer 22:56, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
::See  for how and why a non-offensive version was crafted.--iFaqeer 23:00, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
: Well, once again, you haven't met my statement. The lyrics contain nothing irreverent or negative about Muslims or anyone; they speak of Mother India. The phrase "Vande Mataram" was used as a stirring cry for Independence against the British regardless of religion by many across the country. What was upsetting about the lyrics was its use of Hindu philosophy and iconography where Bharat was seen as mata. Lastly, the 'Pakistans necessity was disputed by Muslims and non-Muslims alike even then.--LordSuryaofShropshire 23:01, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
: I already know the story better than you can imagine. The point I was making is that the song itself does not 'insult Muslims' per se... Muslims are insulted by the song. The song doesn't speak against Islam, or advocate Hindu India, but it offends the sensibilities of Muslims who view a feminization of and dedication to one's land as violating tawheed. --LordSuryaofShropshire 23:03, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
::Again you're not listening to me. :D "irreverent or negative" is not something you can measure with an oscilloscope and certify. I am telling you that there is stuff in the original that Muslims did think (in their opinion; not yours or mine) offensive. I will dig up what I can about it.
::On the dispute over the necessity, that is a whole other can of worms. I am not saying people did or not dispute. I am saying that the ones that do claim it as necessary use this as one of their arguments. Does that make sense?--iFaqeer 23:06, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
:::Okay, the truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. Here's one take, from the Indian Muslim side: . Still looking for the Pakistani version.--iFaqeer 23:10, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
:::Here's more: . Again from Indian sources.--iFaqeer 23:15, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Added links to page and just a "See external links" in the text. Is that okay?--iFaqeer 23:20, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
: No the truth's not in the middle at all. I told you that it is 1) A Hindu characterization of the motherland and was 2) set in a controversial novel called Anandmath. All the other objections on the part of Muslims stem from that. Both articles you showed me serve only to bolster my own argument. Anyway, no one's arguing here. I was simply saying that the actual song never had an anti-Muslim lyrics, which is what you were implying in the beginning by saying it was more than merely the Durga Mata slant.--LordSuryaofShropshire 23:24, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
::Don't have the time to research the song further. But whether the song itself had anti-Muslim lyrics or not, it's origin as a part of (what at least the Muslims saw as) a strongly anti-Muslim piece of literature made it very, very offensive above and beyond the other problem of using a very relgious song as as an anthem first by a party that claimed to represent all Indians and then as a candidate as a national song for a country that claimed to be a secular republic.
::And from the encyclopedia point of view, the fact is that there is a controversy associated with the song--however innocuous its content might be--and we need to mention it. Preferably in as objective way as possible.--iFaqeer 23:31, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Updated the "Muslim institutions and Vande Mataram" section with the latest fatwa issued by JEU on Nov 3, 2009. Drajput (talk) 02:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Strange does Vande Mataram not mean "I bow to thee, Mother" Is our creator our mother or parent as well? So how's bowing down to creator a shirk? Has the creator acted in giving us birth? So, our mother in that sense? So, what's wrong is bowing down to the creator and why the same is a shirk? Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 17:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslim Opposition 

message: Since this song was written orginally in Bengali the article should atleast contain this song in Bengali scripts. I found Bengali scripts in Jana Gana mana and therefore, someone should include the Bengali script version of the song.
I did. Can someone check? --ppm 05:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Song in Bengali alphabet 

message: 165.21.154.14 removed a link to  Check out the version here:  -Copysan 08:29, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why Remove the link to a muslim view of this song??

message: I'd really like to see a Romanized version of the lyrics, in the Latin alphabet. The best I can do by ear is "sujeraam sufalaam mataram maleyeja sitaraam," which is horrible. --KJ 05:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Romanized lyrics?

message: See external link Bharatveer 13:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: vande mataram in MP3 format =

message: Is it possible for some to get a transliteration for this song?? Almost all the text looks like ????????????????? ! 
thanks, Mitternacht90.
--e. 22:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Transliteration

message: Looks like someone cut down the Devanagari text in the short version. If this is appropriate, should we extend this cutting to the Bengali text for consistency?
Also, some people have asked for a transliteration of the text. Should we have a Sanskrit transliteration and a Bengali transliteration under the Devanagari and Bengali script sections? --SameerKhan 00:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be fine. Mar de Sin Speak up! 18:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Short version, Romanization 

message: "The choice was slightly controversial, since the Vande Mataram was the one song that truly depicted the pre-independence national fervour." I have deleted this sentence as it gives the impression that the song was controversial as it was the only song that truly depicted the pre-independence national fervour, which obviously is not the case.MANOJTV 04:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contoversy

message: I'm confused. What do we need the Urdu translation for? This is a page written in English about a song written in Bengali - those two should be the only languages here. If we add Urdu to this page, why not also add Oriya, Marathi, Telugu, and other major languages of India? The translations in those languages should only be made available in the Wikipedia sites dedicated to those languages, and not to the English Wikipedia. --SameerKhan 19:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Urdu 

message: The citation provided for the assertion that it is in sanskritised bengali does not establish the said fact.  Infact, the citation claims that Vande Mataram is a sanskrit song.  Provide better citations.  Sarvagnya 22:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bengali is a language that takes much of its vocabulary from Sanskrit, with some words inherited, and some borrowed. This song is clearly written in Bengali, albeit with many Sanskrit borrowings. This would be the equivalent of an English song with numerous Latinate or Greek-derived borrowings. No matter how many Greek borrowings you put in an English song, it does not "become Greek", and it does not need to be written in the Greek alphabet. Lines like বাহুতে তুমি মা শক্তি, হৃদয়ে তুমি মা ভক্তি, (bahute tumi ma shokti, hridôee tumi ma bhokti) have exclusively Bengali grammar, with the Bengali locative case endings, with words like "ma" and "tumi", etc. Sure, lots of the rest of the poem have very Sanskritic endings, but once again, the song is in Bengali. Even if the song were Sanskrit, keep in mind that when Sanskrit (or at least languages extremely close to what we now call Sanskrit) was actually spoken by large communities, the script used to write it was not what we now know as Devanagari. It was written in a script that later evolved into both Devanagari and Bengali scripts, along with many others. Only later did Sanskrit get written in the modern Devanagari script, well after it (or technically, a language very similar to it) ceased to be a spoken language. --SameerKhan 00:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sanskrit has never ceased to be a spoken language, its usage had waned under Mughal and British oppression. Are you trying to tell me Devanagari is younger than Bangala script? We both know thats totally untrue. Nearly every source calls it Sanskrit , , , , . I still don't see people's issue with keeping Sanskrit script on the page, especially Sarvagnya's issue. Bakaman Bakatalk 03:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said Sanskrit ceased to be a spoken language. I am well aware of the fact that small communities keep it alive; this is why I said "by large communities", where by "large" I mean communities like those who speak other Indian languages like Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali, Assamese, etc. Either way, that is irrelevant. I also never said that the Devanagari script is younger than the Bengali script; that is ludicrous. Both evolved from the same ancient Brahmi script - so how could one be older? (When I said "Only later did Sanskrit get written in the modern Devanagari script" - I did not mean "and it written was Bengali before", I just meant "it was written in something else before". Looking back at what I wrote, I see that I was ambiguous.) Anyhow, since the song does have a lot of lines in Sanskrit grammar, I can understand if people wanted to have the Devanagari version on there, since nowadays people think Sanskrit was always written in Devanagari... but I just thought I'd clarify my earlier points. --SameerKhan 04:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  SameerKhan is right that Devnagari is just another script. All the corresponding varnas (or bornos if you will) are there in Bangla and as late as the sixties and seventies, when Sanskrit textbooks were used for schools in West Bengal they were usually written in Bangla. One of my grandparents wrote a book very popular in pre-Partition Bengal for elementary Sanskrit and it was written completely in Bangla script. Sanskrit hasn't always been officially "married" to Devnagari just as Turkish hasn't always been Romanized. --Antorjal 16:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation for "Sanskritised form" 

message: *First off, the translation written on the article page is uncited.
*And secondly, the consensus on this page seems to be that the Urdu translation is not required.  See here.
*Unless both the the veracity of the translation and the need to have it here is established, I will be deleting the Urdu translation.   Sarvagnya 03:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Urdu translation 

message: Does anyone know who the composers of the various versions of Vande Mataram are? I think it is absolutely vital to mention the composer of the accepted (most popular) one. --Antorjal 04:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind. I had some time on my hands, so I did some researching and an extensive expansion/rewrite. --Antorjal 21:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There can be an other uses section at the end or a miscellany mentioning the other uses of the term. At present the heading is appropriate for this song IMO. If you feel that there are other Sanskrit slokas that deserve to be mentioned, then what you can do is write the separate article clearly showing that the name designated to the sloka is Vande Mataram and that it is notable enough to warrant inclusion in wikipedia per established guidelines. One this is done, a main disambiguation page can link to the various Vande Mataram songs. In the absence of that, I see that just changing the name would make it confusing for the end-user. --Antorjal 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is the composer? 

message: This page seems exceedingly prone to vandalism today. Have had to do a few reverts already. --Antorjal 21:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Terry-ho please note that many Bengali Muslims do bow and even touch the feet of their parents and in-laws per  and this is not considered haram. Please don't change the text to reflect that ALL Muslims find it haram as this is POV. Thanks. --Antorjal 15:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The references given to "support" some of the statements made in the section do not verify was is written (although the Bengali bowing part was ok).  I will attempt to rewrite the section in a more factually correct way, since the text seems to have been written from an opinion instead of actual sources.  Thanks. Mar de Sin Talk to me! 01:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Muslims do bow  

message: The page is looking nice. Good job to all of you.Bakaman Bakatalk 01:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Job

message: There seem to be two hindi versions of the same article, one with the link on this site and the other one .  They seem to have the same title, so I'm baffled at why they are different.  But there seems to be a slight difference in the nagari Vande Mataram on this page and on the one here.  It's mostly minor, like spacing etc. But which version is more correct? Mar de Sin Talk to me! 15:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two hindi versions 

message: The Devanagari and Bengali texts of the "full version given in Anandamath" don't agree with each other.  The first two lines of the second verse in the Devanagari version begin "sapta koti" and "dvisapta koti".  The Bengali version begins "koti koti" in each case.  If I remember correctly, the original had "sapta koti" and "dvisapta koti" because the "mataram" in the song was originally Bengal, not India.  Could someone please check this and change the text accordingly? -- Arvind 20:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dvisapta koti is a Sanskritism for 2 times sapta koti, i.e. 140 million.  The idea was probably that 70 million voices would correspond to 140 million hands.  On the number, I've heard that he included the chunks of Bihar and Orissa that were part of historic Bengal which, together, gave a population of 70 million.  I should also point out that not everyone agrees that Bankim Chandra originally only meant Bengal - many argue that he meant all of India, and "sapta koti" refers to that portion of the population that was capable of bearing arms.  Anyway, fascinating as this topic is, it is really a side issue - what's really important is checking whether the original text said "koti koti" or "sapta koti"/"dvisapta koti" (or, as this article suggests, "trisapta koti").  For the moment, could we settle on one or the other, just so we don't have the two scripts having different readings?  -- Arvind 22:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Differences in the Devanagari and Bengali 

message: Dear Bharatveer, I believe that the correct way to write Vande in Devanagari would be वंदे and not वन्दे as per your latest edits. What do you say about it ? --APandey 11:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No.That is an incorrect usage.-Regards-Bharatveer 13:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I believe Bharatveer is correct. --Antorjal 15:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apandey's na is closer to n than na.Bakaman Bakatalk 22:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vande ??? 

message: I may be unintentionally asking for another huge argument to set off... but I was curious:
So instead of writing "The song was composed by Bankim Chandra Chatterjee in a Sanskritized form of Sadhubhasa Bengali", which is a little confusing sounding to the layreader, can we write something more like "The song was composed by Bankim Chandra Chatterjee in a hybrid/combination/mix/etc. of Bengali and Sanskrit". I'm saying this because much of the song, and especially the stanza that everyone knows as India's national song, is not Bengali. The first part is totally Sanskrit (although written in Bengali script, as Sanskrit is done in much of eastern India and Bangladesh), and other parts are totally Bengali. I think it would be appropriate to make this clear to the reader. I really hope this doesn't become a huge debate though... --SameerKhan 06:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have reliable sources which says vande mataram is a "hybrid mix" of bengali & sanksrit;you can do that.But if its your OR , then I think it will not be right to make that edit.-Bharatveer 07:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  First of all, why "shadhubhasha" at all? When we write articles abt Bengali literature before 1920, do we go "shadhubhasha" all  the time? "Rabindranath Tagore was a Bengali author, no no, he was actually a sanskrtized Bengali shadhubhasha author until 1915", "Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar wrote his declaration of women's rights in Shadhubhasha Bengali", totally ridiculous. That sentence serves nothing but maximum obfuscation at this point.--ppm 17:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see that that is what the reference says! Fantastic. I'll make that change... and I do agree about Shadhubhasha - it's really not necessary to say a Bengali piece of literature is in Shadhubhasha when it was written at a time when Shadhubhasha was the only way to write Bengali. --SameerKhan 22:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: : Well, according to the Government of India, Aurobindo himself had another translation!  The 20 sec clip on this page is useless, the full version (1.1 MB, 69 seconds) is here.  This is the version played on All India Radio.  Curiously enough, the raga for this tune is named deś, which literally means "land" or "country"!:-) rudra (talk) 21:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: VM in the same raga (Desh), performed by Bhimsen Joshi.  (From another page of the same issue of Outlook - it seems the entire issue was on VM.) rudra (talk) 14:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, you are right. I had noticed the difference between the two translations by Shri Aurobindo too. Let me point out to you the difference between the two translations- 
(i) This is Shri Aurobido's translation in poetic form with rhyme kept in mind, so that its eloquence can be enjoyed by the readers of English language too. 
(ii) The second translation which you have cited in Outlook is  Shri Aurobindo's translation in prose form which is just a literal translation of Vande Mataram for those seeking to understand its meaning only. The  government of India portal also has adopted this translation for the sake of simplicity. SASSOTO (talk) 03:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also implemented detailed IMPROVEMENTS on wikisource:Vande Mataram. I hope it will clarify all confusions regarding the TWO translations of Vande Mataram by Shri Aurobindo Ghose. The text has been aligned very systematically so that someone desiring to understand its meaning with a fair knowledge of Sanskrit/Hindi will be able to do so with lesser effort. SASSOTO (talk) 12:58, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two translations of Vande Mataram by Shri Aurobindo

message: In this article the following is mentioned:  
>>>
In 2002, BBC World Service conducted an international poll to choose ten most famous songs of all time. Around 7000 songs were selected from all over the world. Vande Mataram, in a version by A. R. Rahman, was second in top 10 songs.[6]
<<<
I remember very well that it was the same song from the 1952 Hindi movie Anand Math which ranked second in the 2002 International Poll by BBC World Service and not the version of A.R. Rahman (which was not even in the running). The reference link to BBC World Service http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/us/features/topten/profiles/index.shtml still maintains the correct result.
The Hindi movie Anand Math was based on "Anandmath" written by Bankim Chandra Chattopadhya. I cannot recollect whether it was the song sung by Lata Mangeskar or the one sung by Hemant Kumar in the same movie which was in the BBC World Service Top Ten poll. But this site http://abhisays.com/music-and-songs/bbc-world-top-ten-songs.html indicates it was Mangeskar's.
K. Sethu (talk) 06:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vande Mataram in BBC World Service Top Ten was not A.R. Rahman's version 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: BJP person not singing the song properly is just news adding to lead is violation of WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTNEWS and violates WP:NPOV.182.65.233.175 (talk) 13:56, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: BJP has no work here, Please don't about BJP or any other party here. As 182.65.233.175 already said it violated WP:NOTNEWS. My Lord (talk) 15:11, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  News in lead 

message: Anyone think the meter was inspired by the Rigveda?  The meter seems to be basically the middle two syllables taken out. Ficusindica (talk) 01:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: How is your question consistent with the [[WP:TALK] and WP:TPNO guidelines? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rigveda 

message: The text is long-standing content. Given the controversy discussed in the article, the text seems relevant. Comments? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyrics 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: According to the lead, the author is Bankim Chandra Chatterjee - but in the Translation section he's B C Chattopadhyay ... as also in the caption of his photo — but in Composition his name reverts to Chatterjee in the first sentence, but Chattopadhyay twice in the rest of the first paragraph, and twice in the second para. (Incidentally, he's B C Chattopadhyay in the page on Anandamath.) Is Chatterjee incorrect? Even if both names are correct, it would be helpful to readers for the name to be consistent throughout the article. Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 10:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bankim Chandra ?