Talk:Friuli-Venezia Giulia

message: Bill, I am the "someone" who added links to ItalianVisits.com on the various Italian Regional sites - and I don't think I was commiting "link spam" or engaged in vandalism when I did so.   ItalianVisits.com is a serious endeavour being undertaken by my daughter, Jesse Andrews, who for the past 2 years has been living in Praia A Mare, in the northwest region of Calabria.  My other daughter, Arianna, is attending university at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, and also contributes to the ItalianVisits website when she can. 
If you look at the section on  Calabria, you will see how much work and effort has been put into cataloguing towns and villages that are virtually unknown to English-speaking people, whether they are travelers or tourists, or people who have a curiousity about the area.  You will note, I hope, the abundance of wonderful photographs that compliment the text, and present our viewers with images that otherwise would not be available.  Incidentally, you should also note the link to Wikipedia resources whereever and whenever there is material on Wikidpedia about a region, town or other locale.  We are as committed to Wikipedia as you are.
Jesse has created a vessel into which more information is being added every day.  I just spent 15 days in  Umbria,  for instance, and added pages for Perugia, Assisi, Spello, Bevagna, Gubbio and the Regional Park at Colfiorito.  Other contributors, like Katherine Lavallee, have added information about other towns in  Tuscany.  Such contributions are solicited eagerly so that we can fatten the content on the site.  
ItalianVisits.com is hardly a come-on for selling tour packages, although we are trying to attract people to "unknown" parts of Italy, and in so doing, get some business to those out of the way places for local restauranteurs, hoteliers, and others in the travel business.  If you are aware of what is going on in Italy now, you will understand that the economy is depressed, owing largely to various difficulties it has and is facing as it tries to integrate with the EU, and as it attempts to compete in a global economy.  So, having  information for travelers can not be the sine qua non of "link spam".  If you look at all the external links listed in the Umbria section of Wikipedia, a number of them are active promoters of travel to the Region.  Even in the Sardegna section where you posted identical comments to the comments you made here there is a link to a site called ActivSardegna which promotes travel. Should all of these be removed?  And if so, by whom and under what (hopefully) reasonably well-defined policy?
You can coin or use phrases like "link spam", and "cyber vandalism", or other terms of denigration, but I think you, and others who "worry" about Wikipedia, should be careful not to sit on Wikipedia with a holier than thou attitude, deleting other people's contributions, unless a more thorough investigation is done into the content, and sometimes into the motives and objectives of their creators.  Many people spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to do good without much reward beyond the satisfactions it provides.  This effort to "do good" is manifest on your site Bill, at least, so far as I can see, and I commend you for it.  
I'm a bit more than a little chagrined about what you have done Bill, and about how you have characterized ItalianVisits, but I hope we can discuss this if you think I am making an untenable argument in favour of allowing us to post links to the IV website, without fear of having them removed by the over-zealous.
Regards
Vian Andrews
Vancouver, BC
July 28, 2005
::What? Stop picking on poor Bill. Maybe you are the very reason he does not contribute much any more. Seriously, I checked your daughter's site and there is absolutely no question about it, the site is a commercial and commercially oriented site. It sells tours and accomodations all over the place. Nice site by the way. Everyone, I suggest you check out the site and buy from the vendors, you are sure to get a good trip to Italy. There, is that what you wanted? However, putting this in here would clearly be against WP policy. WP does not take every contribution, no matter how good - only specific ones; namely, encyclopedic. Encyclopedias do not sell tours. I would suggest you ameliorate poor Bill by apologizing immediately, but that is only my personal opinion and has no place in WP, so I will not even mention it. Of course, YOU are not a vendor, only a champion come forth to defend your daughter's honor. Bye now.Dave (talk) 01:49, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Rebuttal to Bill Thayer

message: 
This was put on a few years ago. A lot of work has been done since then. Unfortunately the tag is so general I can't tell what needed to be cleaned up. All WP articles except for a few thousand of the very best need clean-up. There is nothing in the discussion. Therefore I am tentatively removing the tag. If you find something specific intolerable tag it or if you want a general tag put a section in here saying what. That's fair, don't you think? Of course all of us continue to clean these articles all the time. General tags like this hold up the works; nobody can tell when the work is complete. Ciao.Dave (talk) 01:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I nowiki-ed the template above.  RJFJR (talk) 19:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The cleanup tag

message: I've made the article internally consistent by using the n-dash throughout, since internal uniformity is regarded a virtue in Wikipedia, but I support omitting it (and the hyphen). I notice that the article on Italian Wikipedia now omits it, as do all the external links in our article, including the official sites. Vzeebjtf (talk) 07:01, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I opened a requested move last year, but it did not gain consensus (and much interest). I suggest that you open another one following instructons at WP:RM. No such user (talk) 11:58, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I should have written (above) that the article in Italian Wikipedia omits the hyphen in the body of the article (with a few exceptions), but the article has not been moved. Perhaps we can agree to eliminate it in the body of this article as well, while keeping it in the title, for now.Vzeebjtf (talk) 23:30, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Please no. In principle, name of the subject in the article body should be the same as in the title. While it is not always strictly enforced, we should not violate it deliberately. I'm not even positive that it should be a ndash rather than a hyphen (per reasoning that it's a joint entity, as in Austria-Hungary).Britannica has the former but BBC the latter. , your input would be welcome? No such user (talk) 14:05, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

text: The name changed in 2001, so our article should do so as well, unless English-language sources published after 2001 still use punctuation between these names with overwhelming consistency.  Italian Wikipedia is irrelevant; Italian and English do not have the same punctuation conventions, and it.WP's style guide has no formal connection to that of en.WP.  Removing the hyphen here (and it clearly should be a hyphen not an en dash per MOS:DASH: "use a hyphen in compounded proper names of single entities: Guinea-Bissau ..., Wilkes-Barre") results in a name that has less historical/etymological meaning (i.e., that this is a merger of two previously separate jurisdictions), but that's a decision that was made in the real world, and it's not WP's job to force the real world to make more sense according to us. :-) If it were not for the official name change, I would strenuously oppose removing the hyphen as a loss of clarity, though.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

text: I have to retract my comment in this. On a closer reading, this was a merger between Venezia Giulia and Friuli, so this should use an en dash if we keep punctuation in it. It is not like Guinea-Bissau (named  two non-comparable things, the earlier nationa/regional name and the state's capital city), nor Wilkes-Barre (named after two individuals, not anything geographic at all). Looking at current usage, the commonness of either mark has declined a little, and we could possibly move it to Friuli Venezia Giulia after all. However, the name is actually clearer as Friuli–Venezia Giulia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:30, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: *Support Vzeebjtf (talk) 07:03, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Britannica and Columbia use endash, but the most prestigious atlas is said to be The Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World, 14th edition, published in 2014, not available online. Perhaps someone will volunteer to visit a library for it. Or, we can wait until November 15, 2018, when the 15th edition will be published. Cheers! Vzeebjtf (talk) 11:55, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. It's a food for thought indeed. But for the life of me I can't tell how and why they distinguish Rhône-Alpes, Bourgogne–Franche-Comté, Mecklenburg–West Pomerania, Friuli–Venezia Giulia and Austria-Hungary. It seems to depend on existence of spaces in a constituent, cf. Drobeta–Turnu Severin (ndash) and Cluj-Napoca (hyphen). No such user (talk) 11:07, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Upon further consideration, it does seem the Austria-Hungary example means a hyphen should be used here as well, does it not? Britannica seems to use an endash only when one of the constituents of the name includes a space (or its own hyphen), but WP:MOSDASH doesn't recognize such a distinction. Vzeebjtf (talk) 19:12, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess the question is whether we should abide by MOS:DASH and debate usage on that talk page, or ignore it in favor of other authorities. Vzeebjtf (talk) 04:50, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

text: Re: "ndash should be used only in ad hoc conjunctions, and once the two items are merged into a single unit, as is the case here, hyphen is normally used."  That isn't consistent with MoS, any style guide I've ever seen, or actual practice.  It would appear that Britannica uses a "en dash if there's a space, hyphen otherwise" rule, but that is not our rule, nor Chicago's, or maybe anyone else's.  So, how they like the write Austria–Hungary is really irrelevant to how WP should write it; the two encyclopedias do not share a style guide, and we clearly have different, incompatible rationales on this particular punctuation matter.  In the end, it's important to remember that style is mostly arbitrary, and that it's the consistency that matters most: presenting readers with non-conflicting style from page to page, and preventing endless editorial bickering over the same trivia again and again.  No particular answer is "correct" in some objective sense, as if the gods handed us Commandments of Punctuation. Language just doesn't work that way.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm as descriptivist as one can be in matters of language, but styling is an issue of prescription. My statement that you quoted was more of thinking aloud than making a definitive assertion how we should do things. I agree that , but I still think that MoS is simply not clear about the issue, so it does not even have an answer how we should style Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and you have changed your mind yourself about the issue. I was hoping that there is some authoritative MoS out there (Chicago or whatever) whose recommendation we might follow and adapt, rather than engage in theological interpretation of vague examples in our MoS. No such user (talk) 13:22, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

text: "That isn't consistent with MoS…." What would be consistent with MoS? Vzeebjtf (talk) 15:02, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyphen, again 

message: *2 and a half years later, we still have :Category:Friuli-Venezia Giulia and related sub-categories using the hyphenated name. 162 etc. (talk) 17:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-move comment

message: Eminot? Vzeebjtf (talk) 00:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eminot? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: No consensus: I'm closing this as "no consensus" as the discussion in this RM doesn't appear to have produced a consensus on what is the best name to move the article to. I'll recommend further discussion to create a consensus on this issue. (non-admin closure)  Spekkios (talk) 03:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Friuli Venezia Giulia →  – The region is commonly named this way, with the hyphen, as it includes two historically distinct entities, Friuli and Venezia Giulia. It is no surprise, that the it.Wikipedia article is named "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" and that all the largest Wikipedias (es.Wikipedia, pt.Wikipedia, fr.Wikipedia, de.Wikipedia, etc) feature articles on the subject with names including the hyphen. Checco (talk) 17:02, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Any look at books and newspapers, both in English and Italian (let alone other languages) include the hyphen. I am not sure that the official name was recently changed. Regarding the Italian Constitution (article 131), it depends from sources: take a look to the websites of the Italian Government, the Senate of the Republic, Chamber of Demputies and Constitutional Court: "Friuli-Venezia Giulia", as well as "Emilia-Romagna" and "Trentino-Alto Adige". Even the even article 1 of the Statute of the Friuli-Venezia Giulia reads "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". Another point is consistency with Emilia-Romagna and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. My argument is about the most common name, not just the official name, but, as we have seen, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" is both the official and most common name of the subject. @User:Yakme: Would you reconsider your vote? --Checco (talk) 15:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Mh, actually all the sources you provided (except the Constitutional Court one) show the usage of "Friuli Venezia Giulia" without the hyphen. For the mentions in the constitution, the relevant article is article 116, where the autonomous regions are defined, so the correct link for the Senate version is this. So it is definitely not true that the official name is with the hyphen. Even the regional council statute is titled "Statuto speciale della Regione autonoma Friuli Venezia Giulia", how can you not see this and state the opposite? Yakme (talk) 15:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the sources carefully. All the sources I mentioned have "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" in article 131, where regions are listed. Also, article 1 of the statute of Friuli-Venezia Giulia has "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". Those are the sources that count. Thus, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" is mentioned in official sources also with the hyphen and it is clearly the most common name in all kinds of sources, from books to newspapers. --Checco (talk) 04:51, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the only conclusion one can take from this is that even official sources use both spellings, as one can see from art. 116 vs art. 131 of the Senate source, or from the title vs art. 1 of the Regional Statute. So one cannot claim that official sources use the hyphen consistently, nor the opposite. See also the final paragraph of this article. Yakme (talk) 11:43, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, my first argument is most common name, the second officiality. --Checco (talk) 14:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

text: It is better to use the standard hyphen, per official and most common mame. --Checco (talk) 15:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

text: *In many contexts, people don't distinguish between hyphens and endashes. We do. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:31, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *Agree that the en dash is correct in this context, by our practice and policy. Andrewa (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *I am a fan of dash, but it would be wrong in this context because "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" is Italian, not English. --Checco (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *No, our article titles are all written in English. We only use phrases from other languages when that other language phrase is used elsewhere in English (or where there are no English sources, but that's not the case here). Italian practice is irrelevant, as is Italian Wikipedia. Andrewa (talk) 15:22, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

text: There was no conensus on what the article name should be. --Spekkios (talk) 05:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: And what about the current name, @User:Spekkios? A very weak consensus completey not supported by sources! --Checco (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I could not find a consensus on what the article name should be. --Spekkios (talk) 22:22, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, @User:Spekkios, the article was wrongly moved before (no consensus, no sources), thus it should be moved back to the established name, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia", which is supported by most official sources, as well as by the principle of most common name. --Checco (talk) 08:20, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That isn't how it works. If there is no consensus in the move request then the current name stands until a consensus is found. I was unable to find a consensus in the move discussion, which therefore means the current name stands until a consensus is found. I am not the closer of any previous move request on this subject. If you disagree with my closure reasoning you are entitled to seek a move review. --Spekkios (talk) 11:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 22 February 2022 

message: I read:
:
OK, got it. Fine so far; however, the sentence continues:
:
Why "still"? -- Hoary (talk) 07:32, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. Surely, the region is mostly known as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". And, also the Italian Constitution always refers to the region as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". As I argued before, I believe that this article should be moved back to "Friuli-Venezia Giulia", which is both the official and the most common name. --Checco (talk) 12:48, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Appearance as such

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 18:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Friuli Venezia Giulia →  – As anyone can see above, the previous three requested moves did not show strong support for the current name, "Friuli Venezia Giulia". After an interesting discussion on the issue at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Friuli Venezia Giulia, I am proposing once again to move the article back to its original and most common name, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". Please note that "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" is not only the most common name, but also the official one. Indeed, the Italian Constitution mentions the region twice and in both cases as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see articles 116 and 131). Moreover, all Italian laws mentioning the region refer to it as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see here). These notably include the ongoing process of reviewing the regional statute (see here). Finally, the official version of the latter, according to the Italian Government, features "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see here) and, interestingly enough, also the regional council has the hyphen in its online (see articles 1 and the following). Moving the article back to "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" would match the names of the other two regions with composite names, Emilia-Romagna and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. The three regions are composed of two historically distinct entities, in our case Friuli and Venezia Giulia. It is no surprise then that the it.Wikipedia article is named "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" and that all the largest Wikipedias (es.Wikipedia, pt.Wikipedia, fr.Wikipedia, de.Wikipedia, etc.) feature articles on the subject with names including the hyphen. -- Checco (talk) 14:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

text: *Comment Following the conclusion of this RM, :Category:Friuli-Venezia Giulia should be moved if necessary to be consistent with the article title. 162 etc. (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 15 November 2023 

message: These messages were originally posted on my talk page:
:Hi, thank you for your work for "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". I would like to point out that you didn't insert the hyphen on all of them, for example on the Gemona del Friuli page I had to correct the error. JackkBrown (talk) 09:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean no disrespect, also because you're an excellent user, but a work cannot be started and not finished (this is the second "Friuli Venezia Giulia" I find, without a hyphen); it would have been better not to intervene and leave everything as it was. JackkBrown (talk) 15:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

text: 51 pages remain, it's not difficult, could you help me? . JackkBrown (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I see 1,407 items, actually... Anyway, I will fix as much pages as I can. I already fixed much more pages than 51. --Checco (talk) 16:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Jonesey95 posted a reply containing the link I sent you, here: Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Friuli Venezia Giulia. JackkBrown (talk) 16:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: By working through templates and fixing some selected articles, we are already down to 1,151 items from 1,407. --Checco (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  can we finish? In addition to User:Checco, are there other users interested in this work (for example User:Jonesey95 and User:Tom.Reding)? JackkBrown (talk) 13:16, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't worthwhile to me other than correcting the 31  templates. Every couple of years it gets moved to one form or the other.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  16:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  for the sake of consistency, we correct everything and on the Friuli-Venezia Giulia page we put a no-move notice. JackkBrown (talk) 16:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  do you have a diff? I don't see a no-move notice, sorry. Also, was there one present before the last move, and the move before that?   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  16:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  no, I mean that it should be placed. JackkBrown (talk) 16:53, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

text: @User:P1221: Thank you for your work! --Checco (talk) 05:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome P1221 (talk) 08:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  A (big) thank you from me too! JackkBrown (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirects