Talk:Southern American English/Archive 2

message: Did the person who wrote the "Grammar" section just choose random examples out of Huckleberry Finn or something? Yes, we commonly say "y'all", but that's about it. I don't know about the other southern states, but at least in North Carolina, it's basically just some elderly people you'll ever hear using any of those other ridiculous examples coming from. Though I live in one of the metro areas, if that's of any relevance...
===Y'all and Yackety-Yak===
Hey, I'm from Maryland and we have that stereotypical "Huckleberry Finn" in parts, but also My Cousin Vinny types...just a melting pot really...anyway, there is southern dialect throughout the entire state of MD, not just "extreme southern parts" as mentioned in this article...but because we have large cities throughout the state, they overshadow that (though some of them are even southern-like)...we don't like being tied down to one region, North or South, just included in both! Now for the yackety-yack: MD is pretty much the only state that celebrates north & south. We have N & S accents, N & S bugs and trees, N & S holiday traditions, style, food, attitudes...way back in the day our state was both for slavery (South) and for the union (North), so we've towed the line between the two regions since the beginning...a NYer will always say we sound country while a NCer will say we're yankees...we can't win! So why do both regions either neglect to include us in these articles or are hesitant to include us? We have to fit in somewhere...by the way, I just looked at the "y'all map" and it surprises me. I use yall on a regular basis...where yall going...what yall wanna eat...how yall doing...seems pretty common. I thought everybody used that, but I guess not. It may depend on race because many black folk, no matter the region, use it. Done with my babble now. Good day. Chic3z (talk) 18:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Oh, wow.

message: Hey, I'm from Maryland and we have that stereotypical "Huckleberry Finn" in parts, but also My Cousin Vinny types...just a melting pot really...anyway, there is southern dialect throughout the entire state of MD, not just "extreme southern parts" as mentioned in this article...but because we have large cities throughout the state, they overshadow that (though some of them are even southern-like)...we don't like being tied down to one region, North or South, just included in both! Now for the yackety-yack: MD is pretty much the only state that celebrates north & south. We have N & S accents, N & S bugs and trees, N & S holiday traditions, style, food, attitudes...way back in the day our state was both for slavery (South) and for the union (North), so we've towed the line between the two regions since the beginning...a NYer will always say we sound country while a NCer will say we're yankees...we can't win! So why do both regions either neglect to include us in these articles or are hesitant to include us? We have to fit in somewhere...by the way, I just looked at the "y'all map" and it surprises me. I use yall on a regular basis...where yall going...what yall wanna eat...how yall doing...seems pretty common. I thought everybody used that, but I guess not. It may depend on race because many black folk, no matter the region, use it. Done with my babble now. Good day. Chic3z (talk) 18:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: [[wikt:y'all|Y'all]] and [[wikt:yackety-yak|Yackety-Yak]]

message: I can't believe there is nothing in this article about words like "be".  In the South, this word seems to be realized as [bəi] (like in Cockney).  This applies to other words with /iː/ as well.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Under "phonology": "The nuclei of /i/ and /e/ relax and become less front." AJD (talk) 03:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you recommend a reword to address the confusing prose?  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, yes, maybe a reword might be in order. I'm not sure "relax" is a very clear description. Showing an example in IPA might be clearer. Wolfdog (talk) 04:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Be

message: Okay guys, I seriously don't know why everyone seems to think Southerners call ever soda they drink "coke", but we don't. Nobody I've ever talked to from Louisiana (my home state) nor any of my friends from Alabama, Arkansas, or Mississippi have ever and don't know anyone who has ever reffered to anything besides Coke as Coke. We all either say "soda" or "soft drink."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.221.49 (talk) 22:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe people think it because there's scholarly evidence published by linguists showing it. Check the reference. (And I certainly heard "coke" used to refer to any soft drink in Texas. In Georgia you can't tell because they don't drink anything but Coke there anyway.) —Angr If you've written a quality article... 22:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Please read WP:NOR. References trump personal experience at Wikipedia. If you saw a cow floating through the streets, you would still not be entitled to change our article on Gravity in accordance with your personal observations. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 20:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Not at all. It would be chaos if it were any other way. Your personal experience is that Southerners do not use "coke" as a genericized trademark for carbonated beverages in general; my personal experience is that we do. Someone else's personal experience might be that "coke" can be used for colas (Coke, Pepsi, RC Cola, Dr Pepper, etc.) but not for "clear" soft drinks like Sprite and 7-Up. So who's to say whose personal experience gets to be mentioned? We avoid the problem by not allowing personal experience to influence article content at all, but rather relying on published sources. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 06:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done so all of my life.  "Coke" is merely a soft drink.  You still need to specify which flavor you want afterwards.  This is in Southern Maryland and Central Virginia.  CsikosLo (talk) 18:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

text: *Ditto. Everything's a Coke. Any canned, non-alcoholic, sweet beverage is a Coke. "What kind of coke do you want?" "Pepsi, please." And you want to know something real amazing? I know some Filipinos who say it's the same in the Philippines. In my opinion, that case is probably a result of the American Military presence there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonlandrum (talk • contribs) 08:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Agree completely. While it is likely regional, such as only a few Southern states or whatever, I too call them all cokes. When we were dating, my Spokane, WA raised husband found me "adorably amusing," or so he said. One day we met for a picnic. I set a bag on the table and began taking the drinks out. "I brought some cokes," I said, "they're Pepsis." His laughter startled me until he explained that he thought the whole "coke" thing was a stereo-type, or an urban myth. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 17:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Babe, bring me a coke?" "What kin' you want?" "Dacta Peppah, please." "Right-o." - A conversation between my wife (TN) and myself (FL) this very morning. She uses 'coke' all the time. I prefer 'soda,' but that's just me. Anyhow, in my experience, the standard southerner in Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, the Carolinas, Virginias, and the Republic of North Mexico, uses the following descriptors for a drink: coke, sprite, tea, koolaid, beer, and coffee. That's about it.   JAGUITAR  (Rawr) 18:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

text: My grandfather, from a small Georgia town called Plains, also called them a "co-cola." MagnoliaSouth (talk) 17:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Both links supporting the statement are dead links, which I tagged. If new links aren't provided in week or two, I plan to remove the statements. My guess is that the sources are outdated, which is why we have the debate here. I would agree that in the past, "Coke" was a more generic word, but that's unlikely now. And I fully agree with Youzwan that the South is not monolothic. In fact, there is a HUGE diversity throughout the United States for terms describing beverages. Some of these specific terms are confined to very limited regional differences. For example, in the area where I grew up in western NC, the word "dope" was used frequently in the past to refer to soft drink. If you went over a few counties and used that term, people had no idea what you were talking about. I think this entire article needs to be re-examined for outdated sources, dead links, and sweeping generalizations about the South's use of language that may be limited to regional differences. I think much of the misinformation in this article arises from the stereotype of the ignorant Southerner who can barely speak understandable English. The South does not have a monopoly on odd phrases, strange pronunciation, and poor grammar. I've lived all over the United States and have heard examples everywhere. Cresix (talk) 18:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Coke

message: I think we should split the Southern American English article into an academic rendition and a more popular rendition.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirk.Hazen (talk • contribs) 11:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: For what purpose? Both would still be subject to Wikipedia's policies on Verifiability and No original research. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 12:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:FORK.  What you're advocating sounds a lot like a POV fork to me.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, Wikipedia never splits articles into academic and popular subject matter (excluding articles like Pop culture references to X). Aleta (Sing) 23:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a few articles on extremely specialist subjects like quantum physics where there's a general-audience introduction article and an article for people who actually understand physics, but this article is hardly dense enough to require something like that. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 05:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Split SAE

message: Southerners seem to pronounce their r-colored vowel more "heavily".  I know "heavily" is not a good way to describe it, but I can't think of any other way to put it.  It sounds similar to how they pronounce it in Ireland and the West Country of England.  In my opinion, this is one of the most salient features of the dialect.  I'm sure someone else here knows what I mean.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, most Southerners whose ancestors came to America from Ireland, came from Ulster where people still use the strong R.In fact it's a salient aspect of the Northern Irish accent.Also many people from Derry and Tyrone speak very slow (a salient feature in Southern American English such as is spoken in Texas).Indeed there are many similarities between SAE and Northern Irish speech.06:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the subject you're alluding to with the "r-Coloured vowels" is Rhotic and non-rhotic accents.  The article has maps of rhotic (voicing 'R's pronouncedly) & non-rhotic (softening 'R's) regions in England & the USA.  Weasel Fetlocks (talk) 19:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think you may be alluding to the difference between the General American's typical alveolar approximant and Southern American's more typical retroflex approximant. Wolfdog (talk) 14:44, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Southern R-Colored Vowel

message: One thing I have noticed that many SAE speakers I have listened to do is put a t in between the l and s in words like else. 
Thus else becomes /ɛlʦ/.  I think this "intrusive t" (that's what I'll call it, anyway) occurs every time an orthographic l is followed by an orthographic s for some speakers.  I don't know if ANAE mentions this or not.  Then again, ANAE seems to concentrate on vowels mostly. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure this feature is moderately widespread (though of course by no means universal) in North American English outside the South. I don't have any idea what its regional distribution is though. You're right that it's not addressed in ANAE. AJD (talk) 05:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

text: "but I'm sure it can be found in other areas of North America as well." Such as Alaska. But I think you can get too nitpicky about what's SAE and what's not, because the "intrusive t" is probably just a lisp. I only know one person who does this.  ~Jonathan (talk) 11:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Intrusive T

message: User 24.185.110.186 seems intent on changing a specific paragraph in the article to be incorrect.  He/she was reverted twice by Ajd and me on 15 April 2008 and was previously reverted twice by Angr and Aeusoes1 on 28 December 2007.  I have added a warning to the user's talk page (encouraging use of sources and discouraging OR).  ++Arx Fortis (talk) 07:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: FYI: spurious info by 24.185.110.186

message: There really doesn't seem to be much information on the Charleston accent on Wikipedia or anywhere on the internet for that matter.  I would love to know more about it, but I just can't find anything.  I realize it is fading away, but I just want to know what it used to sound like.  Can anyone help me? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 01:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed the link for "Coastal Southern" but the article it links to doesn't have any sources.  I recall seeing a comparison about Boston dialect with the Charleston dialect, but I don't recall where. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 16:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Charleston Accent

message: Im just very curious the map for the southern dialect  in my opinion and many  of my friends  we are quite puzzled why Kentucky  or Oklahoma is not fully included. yes kentucky may have been a border state but  most kentuckians like (myself) & most northerners will tell you the whole state deserves to be in their from paducah kentucky to ashland kentucky is very  southern to the core.June 19 2008  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Featherhawk 81 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The source of data for the map is cited.  Of course, there are no "hard boundaries" for things like dialects, but on Wikipedia, one must base assertions on cited, reliable sources.  An individual editor's personal opinion (or that of his/her "friends") is considered original research and does not meet the criteria laid out in the Wikipedia guidelines for inclusion in an article. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 05:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Folks from Paducah or Ashland my sound very Southern, but a lot of folks in Covington don't — unsurprisingly, they sound more like they're from Cincinnati. If you're wondering about Oklahoma, folks from Tulsa and Oklahoma City speak with a West Midlands accent, not Southern. Listen carefully to an interview with Garth Brooks, born and raised in Tulsa. He doesn't turn long "i's" into single vowels, for instance. In fact, he's one of the few C&W singers who doesn't "Nashville" up his accent, like a lot of singers born in Texas. --Janko (talk) 11:19, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

text: Kentucky's larger cities like Louisville and Lexington do not have a southern accent, people there have a midwestern accent (unless they are migrants from other parts of the state).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4898:80E8:ED31:0:0:0:2 (talk) 21:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Kentucky and Oklahoma

message: Why doesn't the map at the top of this article that shows the monophthongization of /aɪ/ to [aː] include southern Illinois, southern Indiana, southern Ohio, much more of Missouri, much more of Oklahoma, and some of Kansas?  I know linguists have studied these regions.  Kurath and McDavid called these areas the South Midland.  I just don't understand why they're not included. Thegryseone (talk) 21:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the Atlas of North American English, which the map is based on, doesn't show ay-monophthongization in those regions. —Angr 21:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

text: No major cities in southern Ohio??? Indeed southern Illinois wasn't examined, but Evansville, Terre Haute, Dayton, Hamilton and Cincy all were. —Angr 22:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Southern Illinois, southern Indiana, Southern Ohio, etc.

message: Can someone find a formant plot for SAE?  Thanks. Thegryseone (talk) 22:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Formant Plot

message: I read here about something called a constricted r.  Can someone explain to me what that is? Thegryseone (talk) 03:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it just means the "r" is pronounced (like all consonants,  is produced by making a constriction in the oral tract). —Angr 06:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Constricted ''R''

message: This section states:
*A popular myth claims that this dialect closely resembles Early Modern or Shakespearean English.   Although this dialect retains many words from the Elizabethan era that are no longer in common usage, this myth is apocryphal. 
I'm not contesting the statement, but these citations are atrocious.  Does anyone have any better resources on the matter?   Halogenated (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Appalachian and Elizabethan English

message: Well hello y'all.  I've tidied up the grammar section & removed the "word use" section.  These examples of dialect words belong in the regional vocabularies article, which is more of a glossary of words, whereas SAA should focus on Southern grammar & pronunciation.  I have moved to the regional vocab article any examples from this article there which were not there already.  I did not move the citations since the other words on that page do not have citatons, but if anybody wants to retrieve the references, they can be found from the history.  I have also added a link to the regional vocab article in the SAA article & vice-versa.
I've rearranged the grammar into a slightly more logical order, keeping similar points (e.g. past tense forms) close together.  Also merged a few points on the list that were basically the same, & split a few which were saying different things.  Weasel Fetlocks (talk) 16:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes made

message: When I read "turning wasn't into won't," I wondered if the writer meant "wadn't" (where the d is a like glottal stop followed by a nasal n).  
And are the pronunciations (here represented by my redneck spelling) "dudn't" for "doesn't" and "idn't" for "isn't" generally used in Southern American English? If so, please add to the article. DBlomgren (talk) 05:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the wasn't to won't is a grammatical comment rather than the issue of pronunciation DBlomgren raises. Aleta Sing 21:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "wasn't"-->"won't" is both grammatical and phonological.  I think it represents a phonological modification of "weren't", which, in the singular number, is a grammatical variant from "wasn't", common in many BE dialects.  It could simply be an easing of "wadn't", but that wouldn't explain the modification of the vowel from [ə] in [wədn] to [o] in [wont], or the restitution of the final stop. I think [wont] had to develop from a pronunciation that involved an r of some kind.  In Tidewater Virginia, where I grew up, at least in the cities, [wont] is (or was) used almost exclusively by black people, in both the singular and plural numbers, whereas white people say (or said) [wədn] in the singular number, and often (depending on class and education) in the plural, though some variant of [wəɹnt] (IPA doesn't have a symbol for the vowel most of us use, which is lower than [ə]), with or without the [ɹ], is more common.
Jdcrutch (talk) 03:33, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Wadn't that supposed to be "wadn't"?

message: I have noticed that a lot of speakers in the South use whenever where speakers in other dialect regions would use when.  For example, one time I heard a guy say, "Whenever I was twelve years old, we would play baseball a lot."  Even educated Southerners seem to do this, which tells me that it is probably just part of the dialect.  Sometimes I am so tempted to say, "What do you mean whenever you were twelve years old?  You were twelve years old when you were twelve years old."  However, I haven't said that yet, because I don't want to be an asshole. Thegryseone (talk) 17:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noticed that too, being used by people from East Texas and Louisiana. I've read that the construction is also used in Ulster English, so (like many other features of the Southern accent) it may well have originated with the Scotch-Irish. —Angr 09:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is indeed a Norn Ironism, also found in parts of Australia & New Zealand, if I recall correctly. Jack(Lumber) 00:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Whenever

message: In the areas around Hobbs, Roswell, and Clovis New Mexico there is a strong southern-Texas influenced-accent. 
Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj (talk) 02:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: New Mexico Southern Accent

message: It should also be noted that the residents of Tangier Island in Virginia's Chesapeake Bay have a unique accent that is very old and appears to be completely unrelated to the traditional Southern accent. Although the accent on Tangier Island appears to be fading as younger residents have grown up with access to mass media and numerous mainland tourists.
Mike S, Albuquerque Mikemmlj (talk) 02:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tangier Island Accent

message: I live in the South, and unless you go into an extremely rural area, you will never hear any of that if you live in a town with more than 1000 people (minus replacing got with have). Thats more of a redneck accent than a southern accent, and their are differences. Its like comparing the average northern accent to the Boston accent.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.19.190.238 (talk) 16:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You will never hear any of what?  What are these differences?  Can you explain them? Thegryseone (talk) 18:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Who told you it was my map? Thegryseone (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The map doesn't show "Southern culture", it shows where linguistic research has indicated that the local dialect has a monophthongal [a:] for the "long I" sound before obstruents. —Angr 21:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

text: I think that the dialect in southern Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio (especially the rural parts) does sound quite Southern, and so does the dialect in rural central Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, pretty much all of rural Missouri, and much of Kansas (which is mostly rural anyway).  Also the Kansas City area seems to have quite a bit of Southern influence in its dialect.  However, I don't know for sure if people in these areas monophthongize /аɪ/ before obstruents.  But they very well might.  When I hear people from these places, they do strike me as sounding Southern, though I can't explain exactly why.  This is coming from someone who has the pin-pen merger, so that must not be what it is.  I've read that a lot of this has to do with settlement patterns in the Midland region.  The Northerners tended to settle in the cities and towns there, while the Southerners tended to settle in the rural areas and farm.  As someone who is from this region, these differences do seem to survive to this day, even if people don't understand why.  For example, there was this guy that went to high school with me, and the city-dwellers, including me, would always make fun of the way he talked.  He lived in the outskirts, in the countryside, and we always thought he sounded Southern.  We never understood why though.  Settlement patterns are the same reason that Sarah Palin sounds like she's from Minnesota.  I think that in these cases, the accent must get passed down from parents to their children at some point.  There's no other way this could happen.  But remember 68.19.190.238, that this isn't my map.  I would research this stuff if I could and make an improved version. Thegryseone (talk) 10:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that "your" was intended as a singular referring to you specifically, Thegryseone, but rather as a plural referring to Wikipedians in general. —Angr 11:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Whoops :)  Still, though, I definitely think the map could be improved, so I guess I agree with 68.19.190.238 in that respect, although I'm not sure exactly what he means. Thegryseone (talk) 17:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, do you have any concrete suggestions for the map? I based it on the Atlas of North American English. Maybe I could dig up some other isoglosses besides the /aI/-monophthongization line. —Angr 18:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

text: The real situation is too complicated to show on a map.  Thegryseone (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Shared Features

message: Of course the dialect of Southern American English owes it origins to African American Vernacular English. Ya'll realize that of course.216.78.55.7 (talk) 10:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The influence worked in both directions. —Angr 13:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

text: This is an interesting discussion. The information you mention can not be added to the article, though unless we can give a reference for it. Do you have such a reference? Aleta Sing 18:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Maybe you should learn something about linguistics and American history before pontificating about things you know nothing about. And you should definitely read WP:V and WP:NOR before adding content to Wikipedia articles. —Angr 16:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Please note that talk pages are not forums for discussing a topic, but for discussing the content article itself, and improvements to it. If you have reliable sources to add to the article that address this question, then good, but if not, discussing "cultural identity" and "'ethnic copyright'" is beyond the scope of this talk page . - BilCat (talk) 16:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: AAVE

message: I am puzzled that the section on phonology is restricted to phonemes whereas some of the most striking features of Southern American English have to do with prosody. -S.Camus (talk) 07:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What are those features? Do you have a reference for them? AJD (talk) 15:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Intonation?

message: my teacher miss murray is from alabama and a third grader kiri makes fun of her accent!! miss murray's southern accent!!!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.141.105 (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for sharing that with us.  You're right, Southern accents do indeed exist and some people have them. Thegryseone (talk) 03:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: my teacher

message: I want to do some edits in the phonology section.  I just want to add some phonetic detail from A Handbook of Varieties of English (Bernd Kortmann, Edgar W. Schneider).  I like the way they transcribe the vowels for the various dialects.  If anyone has any objections, say so here.  Thegryseone (talk) 15:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Phonetic Detail

message: I'd like to add to the phonology section that it's common for Southern speakers to change the final o sound to a schwa, e.g., Rio Americano becomes "Ria Americana" and piano becomes "piana", etc. Is this still true for today's Southern speakers? I know it was true for North Carolinians and Texans. DBlomgren (talk) 04:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't hold true for the Mobile, Alabama (I'm a native). I can't speak for the natives of North Carolonia or Texas, of course.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.182.83.96 (talk) 04:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While I'm a native Georgian, I presently live in Mobile and a lot of my native Moh-bill (Mobile) patients (home health nurse here) have "pianas in there." I personally haven't ever used it, but I've heard folks here and in Georgia do it. Not sure where it descends from. MagnoliaSouth (talk)
I CAN speak as a 9th generation North Carolinian, and it's true, we DO say "PianA" not "PianO"70.249.195.154 (talk) 15:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Also from North Carolina.  I definitely say "pianA," "thurra" instead of "thorough," "pillA" (rather than "pillOW") is the one my yankee friends point out to me. So it's there if you can find some non-original research.  Jieagles (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing final o sound to a schwa

message: I was puzzled by the second map in pinkish color which purports to be a map of Southern dialect. It puzzles me because it is quoted as being from the work of Labov & Ash, but the map on the Labov site itself is a bit different, as you can see here http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html Dubyavee (talk) 00:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The map shows only the areas that undergo /aI/-monophthongization, which isn't the same as the area shown on the map you link to. +Angr 05:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it seems the two maps we have on the article page do not really define southern speech generally, which should be the main map since the two shown here are sub-dialect specific. There should be a third map, the one I linked, which shows what the Labov/Ash study considers Southern dialect. The map I linked is from the Univ. of PA and the Telsur Project and Prof. Labov.Dubyavee (talk) 06:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Second Labov/Ash map not quite right

message: Some of the examples given for Southern dialect are pretty ridiculous.  "I seen her first" really harkens back to some bs cousin lovin episode of the simpsons.  People in the South can talk about things other than dogs and trucks and its fairly offensive that so many of these examples fit perfectly into stereotypes of southerners.
Jasper (talk) 21:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL at the Simpsons cousin lovin' episode! I agree with you... to a point. There are people who grammatically speak that way but you will rarely find them in jobs which require higher educations and they are fewer and far between than most of us who don't. I'm not saying that southerners are uneducated (another stereotype), because I am a 100% born and bred southerner and I would not ever describe myself as uneducated, but they do exist. Being a home health nurse in the south, I have frequent contact with people like that. I would say that it is more common in the elderly, where they use older dialects than the those in use now, and they tend to be in outlying areas where they are more isolated. Mind you I have nothing to cite that as official, just personal experience. However isolated areas are mentioned in the article, briefly, but not at all in that particular section. I think probably the best thing to do is find out who actually uses the grammar, as it is used, and explain so there. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 17:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: General Offensive Bias

message: The y'all map in the Newer SAE Grammar section is ridiculous and should be either removed (my preference) or radically modified, on at least two counts:
* The boundaries of the various you/y'all/you-all/etc usage areas follow state lines exactly, so that, according to this map, only in the state of Rhode Island does anybody say simply "you," while the vast majority of Americans say "you guys," all of which is absurd.
But even more importantly:
* The map does not at all reflect the referenced data from which it purports to be derived. That source, which appears to be reputable, shows a total of nine individual maps plus one composite map, all of which show widely scattered and intermixed variations in usage. 
I'm not prepared to say that this map is vandalism or intentionally fraudulent, but it is at best incompetent and grossly inaccurate when compared to its own stated source. It may be an honest attempt to simplify and dramatize the rather complex and undramatic data on which it claims to be based, but if so it has gone much too far. I think the article would be very much better without this map.--Jim10701 (talk) 07:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  This map deviates so far from its source material that it's basically unsourced information that's misattributed.  We should fix it.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I say remove rather than fix, because the source material is also highly questionable - it's based on self-reporting in response to an Internet survey and indicates where speakers lived at the time of taking the survey rather than where they grew up. +Angr 18:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it indicates where speakers grew up (or at least, that's what respondents were asked to indicate). I'll admit that the web site with the maps doesn't make this clear; I only know it because I was Prof. Vaux's research assistant for a year around the time when this survey was being conducted. Anyhow, the data isn't totally reliable because it's based on self-report, but it's not completely worthless, either. The map under discussion seems to be merely a map of what "you" form received the plurality of survey responses in each state—so it's somewhat misleading in that it's not labeled accurately, but not an incorrect summary of the data it's actually summarizing. AJD (talk) 00:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Serious problems with "y'all" map

message: In the article Grammar > Shared Features there is one example phrase, "This here's mine and that there is yours." "There" is another form of "here." If "here's" is used then definitely "there's" would be used as well and there is no way "is" would be used at all. The correct sentence should (naturally in my opinion) be, "This here's mine and that there's yours." Believe me, I hear it every single day. ;) Anyone wish to fix that? MagnoliaSouth (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  The only time "is" would be used in that sentence, for a speaker of SAE, is if particular emphasis is needed on the word "there."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C407:D070:D120:FC7:B876:6FD5 (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "That there's wrong."

message: Does a southern draw come from laziness? Is a southern drawl just a lazy scottish accent?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.132.30 (talk) 16:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  No.  We don't really have anything describing origins in this article, do we? — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 22:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Comes from laziness?

message: One thing I was a bit surprised not to see discussed is use of what I call poetic phrasing in the South. For example, my late maternal grandmother from rural southern Alabama, slightly inland from the Gulf Coast would say, in reference to assessing the safety of eating or drinking something:
"Smell of it first."
On extremely rare occasions, I have heard "Taste of it" as well. I am curious about the origins of this type of phrasing and how often others have encountered it. My mother, a retired English teacher, still uses that phrasing, although it has evolved into "Smell've it first."
I call it poetic phrasing because it seems to echo an old, romantic way of expressing oneself, that one cannot literally smell something; one can only sample the essence of the object in question. I find it interesting to note that if one were to translate the phrase:
"I smelled the milk."
into French, the result is:
"J'ai senti l'odeur du lait." (literally: "I sensed the odor of the milk." or "I felt the odor of the milk."
One theory I have is that it was introduced into the dialect by the poetry of religious hymns that many rural people sang on a regular basis.
I don't hear this type of phrasing anywhere anymore. Does anybody else? If so, could you give an example?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianmacian (talk • contribs) 19:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Poetic" phrasing

message: The same late Southern grandmother I referenced in my section on "poetic" phrasing would say "et" instead of "ate." Has anyone else heard people use that term?
::It was once very common, and is still sometimes heard, in upper-class British English, where it is spelled "eat".  Jdcrutch (talk) 04:02, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Et" versus "Ate"

message: Why is part of California shaded on the map? ~DC We Can Work It Out 06:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It says in the caption. ¦ Reisio (talk) 06:36, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, it mentioned in the book (which I don't have).  But California isn't mentioned elsewhere in the article.  Would :File:Southern_American_English.svg work better as the first image.  ~DC We Can Work It Out 06:40, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: I have read that the Cherokee language for example has many of the sounds that are now essential to the Southern American Accent, as do cousins of the Cherokee from the other Five Civilized Tribes. Remember that during the early times of European settlement in the American South that Native American tribes were equal or superior in influence to European settlers (with lots of intermarriage) and thus may have helped to shape early Southern American dialect and pronunciation.
Later on the massive influx of West African slaves may had added another layer of influence to various Southern American accents especially since "house slaves" (as opposed to slaves who worked in the fields) played a major role in raising white children. This may have also allowed West African languages to influence Southern American pronunciation and even the use of some words and grammar. 
This is not to discount the European influences on the formation of various Southern American dialects, but neither should these non-European influences be left out. 
98.245.150.162 (talk) 23:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: African influences on South American English is well documented - I've never heard of Native American influences, and frankly I don't see how that would have happened.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: WP can only include info from reliable published sources, ans such information must be verifiable to other readers. You need to be more specific than "I have read that", otherwise it can't be included in the article. - BilCat (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, new sections go at the bottom of talk pages, not the top. Cresix (talk) 23:52, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the info. It's a start, but, as you suggested, it's generally weak by itself; that's especially true since the page is written by someone whose area of expertise is Slavic Linguistics, and the page does not refer to any outside sources. The source may be full of speculation by the writer. The above quote appears to be the sum total of the source's information about Native American influence on Southern English, and it's quite skimpy. I do find the information interesting, especially since I grew up in the region referred to in the source. But my opinion at this point is that the info provided above is interesting and suggests that there may be some validity to the arguments, but better sourcing is needed before placing any related comments in the article. Cresix (talk) 20:34, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Native American and African Influence on Formation of Southern American Accent

message: One thing I would like added in is the phrase "ov'ar" or "over thar" for "over there".  Not all Southerners use "over yonder". Shadowmane (talk) 19:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reliable source for that? Also, please place new sections at the bottom of the talk page, not the top. Cresix (talk) 21:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a reliable resource, unless its to go drive about 20 miles into the country and have a conversation.  I live in North Carolina.  Here, "over yonder" is never used.  Its always "ov'ar" or "over thar".  And the "ov'ar" sounds actually more like "o vair".  And in the mountains here, they also use "youn's" instead of "ya'll".  Shadowmane (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Over Yonder

message: I think it needs to be said that in New Orleans, the phrase "Where y'at?" actually means "How are you?"
-Kristen  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.58.210.15 (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Where y'at?" 

message: Is circumfix a- . . . -in' still used in newer SAE? Freedom Fighter 1988 (talk) 23:23, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C407:D070:D120:FC7:B876:6FD5 (talk) 18:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  circumfix 

message: "I enjoy my coffee in the morning" is "I enjoy my coffee of the morning [or "mornin' or "mawnin"]. 
"I like to walk every evening" is "I like to walk of the evening [or "eav'nin" or "eav'nin time"].
Stephen Hyder98.86.43.83 (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I realize I'm quite tardy to the party here, but in what part of the South do you hail that that's true? I have never in 22 years heard those being interchanged like that. My grandmother is 85 (so you can imagine the difference in accent!), and even she doesn't use those in that way. It's been my complete experience that "I enjoy my coffee in the morning" (which I do) means "I love to drink my coffee between the hours of 6AM and 12PM", and that "I like to walk every evening" means "I prefer to stroll between the hours of 6PM to 9PM [or whenever it gets dark] each day of the week". "I like to walk of the evening" makes no sense. I know my lengthened examples come off snobby, but I was trying to be definite, and I'd like to see a source of the phenomonon you describe [personal or otherwise, because I'd like to know where this is happening for my own interest]. (Since everyone else is doing it, I'm from Spartanburg, SC.)
SmallCheez (talk) 10:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I know nothing about "of" for "in", but as an irrelevant aside, in northern Florida, "evening" was the time after dinner, which was eaten in the middle of the day, until night. "Southern" dialect is not monolithic; it does vary across the South. That said, everything in WP needs to be verifiable, so whoever wants to add the above tidbit to the article will have to identify a reliable source. -- Donald Albury 12:15, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

text:  The genitive "of an evening" — not "of the evening" — is rather archaic, but was not limited to the South. It implies repeated or habitual action at that particular time of day. Theodore Dreiser's 1911 novel Jennie Gerhardt: "There was a place out in one corner of the veranda where he liked to sit of a spring or summer evening." Modern English renders this with "evenings." How you get from the indefinite to the definite article is anyone's guess. --Janko (talk) 11:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "of" equals "every" and dropping "g"; "morning" vs. "mourning" 

message: I reverted an edit that added Austin, Texas to the list of cities where the merger of ɛ and ɪ before nasal consonants does not occur. That does need a reliable source. I know that Savannah and New Orleans have distinct varieties of Southern American English, but I don't think Miami does. I am confident that speakers of Southern American English in Miami (and there are still some) do merge ɛ and ɪ before nasal consonants (as a native of Miami, I was 20 years old before I could even hear the distinction, and I still do not make it in speaking without a strong conscious effort). So then, can someone provide a reliable source that states that Miami has/had the same exception to the merger that is found in Savannah and New Orleans? -- Donald Albury 13:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "pen"/"pin" in Austin and Miami 

message: I scanned this article quickly and I noticed that I did not see a section on people dropping the ING from a word. For example, I am goING to the store, is usually said I am goin' to the store. or I was runnING is said I am runnin' in the South, at least in Tennessee. I have heard the same complaint from people in Texas as well. I don't have a source for this and don't know where to even find one but about half of people in the South do tend to drop the ING on a word. Can this be added to the article? This bothers me so much that when I visit California I probably sound like a robot when I speak because I am so self conscience about my Southern accent and try to correct it as much as possible. In fact when I visited California the first time I was in a Von's grocery store and (I had said something,I don't remember what) that the clerk, a man in his sixties asked me if I lived in Tennessee. I was shocked and said, yes, I live in Nashville. I asked him how he knew and he told me he was stationed at Ft. Campbell and could remember clearly how people in that area spoke. I made sure to check my accent after that!--99.177.248.92 (talk) 20:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the page  at Wiktionary, about 60% of English speakers change -ing to -in in participles. So the guy in California picked up on something else in your speech, not that. Anyway, we're beyond the days when anyone needed to hide their Southern accent -- embrace it, it's a nice accent! And there's certainly nothing about it that needs to be corrected. Duoduoduo (talk) 21:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dropping the ING in a word 

message: Okay I have been to Austin, Texas several times, and NO ONE there prounounces pin and pen the same, or say "y'all" (in contrast to the rest of the state, even in the diverse urban areas of Houston and Dallas). In fact Austin is the only city in TX where you will be hard pressed to find a SAE speaker. People there talk like a combination of Californians, New Yorkers, or perhaps General American speakers from the Midwest. Austin is a different city than the other cities in TX and even in accents it shows. So please put a white circle in Austin on that map.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.96.42.252 (talk) 22:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You must hang around a bunch of uptight, perfectionist UT English majors.  The majority of Austin residents moved there from Texas or other areas of the South. Most of them pronounce pin and pen the same and "y'all" is a very common expression.  As in, hook 'em horns y'all!TL36 (talk) 23:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please note Austin, Texas an an exclusion on the purple map  

message: In general, Wikipedia's linguistic articles are well-written and solidly supported with citations to scholarly authority.  For some reason, the article on Southern American English is an exception.  Even statements that seem to have been written by persons familiar with linguistic terms and methods frequently lack any reference to authority.  More often, and particularly in the descriptive sections, the article lacks even the appearance of authority, and seems to consist mainly of assertions from personal experience, lacking even the merit of original research, viz., research.
Can we please get a linguist, or at least a serious student of American dialects, to rewrite this article, adding citations to support whatever can be supported by authority, and removing what can't?
Jdcrutch (talk) 05:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Since my foregoing plea has gone unanswered for over a year, I have added an "Expert Needed" tag to the lede of the article.  I hope that will produce some results!  J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 21:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the healthiest thing for this article is a match and a lot of gasoline. This is very bad.  RoflCopter404 (talk) 06:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations, Please! 

message: I find it hard to believe that double negatives aren't covered.  Anyone care to tune it up? 66.30.179.108 (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it's because double negatives aren't peculiar to Southern American English, but are found in many other dialects of English, both in the United States and elsewhere.  J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 22:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  This here article ain't got no double negatives! 

message: While I lack citations, at this point, I would like to open a discussion on this specific subject.
The original author has offered the beginning of insight; it is well noted that Southern American English has an arche, or origin, in the many styles and dialects of the United Kingdom, there is a regional gap. In notation, the dialects number on the order of 400 (uncounted, thusly) , including creoles, geographical and sociological influences, portmanteau and linguistic drift. Southern American English is a migratory mix of these factors, not to mention the advent of a "standard intonation and pronunciation" brought about by media sources.
One is born with a "milk tongue", informed by environment and circumstances. When one moves, from region to region, it is a natural psychological occurrence to adapt and fit in; when one begins to lesson in a foreign language, it is best to learn to develop a proper, generalized accent that conforms to the language. Knowledge of the proper culture, customs and basic speaking is certainly more polite than to arrive in another country without, as well as a reflection of time spent to care about diplomacy.
Division of "sub-regions" is a good start, but much too general. 
This article requires more than such generalizations; the dialect of Mobile, AL differs distinctly from that of Gastonia, NC, so begs for closer study and resolution. This is dialectical data that might give this article more impact, and certainly more clarity.
Understand, this is not promoted as argument or personal offense. It is merely an invitation to discuss the article further. Bono Fides will be offered, though, by necessity, in First Person.
Thank you for your time and consideration.Mtbruin (talk) 14:46, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  A consideration.... 

message: The article claims the following, without citing any sources:
:Southern dialects originated in large part from immigrants from the British Isles who moved to the South in the 17th and 18th centuries. Settlement also included large numbers of Protestants from Ulster, Ireland, and from Scotland.
It is unclear that the regional differences between southern and northern American dialects is due to the origins of the settlers.  Apparently Guy Bailey claims SAE actually developed after the Civil War, but this is disputed by .  More info here: .  This paper does attribute subregional variation to population origin differences.  The article needs to explain the history in more detail and with better citations, noting areas of disagreement. -- Beland (talk) 06:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious origin claim 

message: The section titles included
:2 Phonology
::2.1 
::2.2 Modern Southern
:3 Grammar
::3.1 
::3.2 Newer Southern
::3.3 Shared features
, and two with non-parallel titles in an otherwise parallel structure. Both "modern" and "newer" are used in the text. 
* I changed "Newer Southern" to "Modern Southern" for parallelism.
** I added an anchor "Newer Southern" to preserve any existing links.
* I added explicitly distinct anchors to all four parallel subsections, prefixing "ph:" to the phonology subsections and "gr:" to the grammar ones.
* I added an anchor "gr:Shared features" to the last subsection for consistency.
So now the subsections have the following valid links:
:2 Phonology
::2.1 Older Southern
::* Southern American English#ph:Older Southern
::* Southern American English#Older Southern
::2.2 Modern Southern
::* Southern American English#ph:Modern Southern
::* Southern American English#Modern Southern
:3 Grammar
::3.1 Older Southern
::* Southern American English#gr:Older Southern
::* Southern American English#Older Southern 2 see note
::3.2 Modern Southern
::* Southern American English#gr:Modern Southern
::* Southern American English#Modern Southern 2 see note
::* Southern American English#Newer Southern (the old title, which was not a duplicate)
::3.3 Shared features
::* Southern American English#gr:Shared features
::* Southern American English#Shared features
:Note: Automatically created. See Help:Link#Section linking (anchors)
Please  me to discuss. --Thnidu (talk) 15:36, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  subsection titles 

message: At least two of the major articles on the stub Ozark English more or less equate "Ozark English" with "Appalachian English": 
*Christian, Wolfram, &  Dube (1988). "Variation and Change in Geographically Isolated Communities: Appalachian English and Ozark English"
*Dumas (1999). "Southern Mountain English: The Language of the Ozarks and Southern Appalachia"
I would just go ahead and boldy merge it myself, but I'm a bit stumped by the three merging options: to Southern American English, to Older Southern American English, or to Appalachian English. Any thoughts? Thanks Wolfdog (talk) 01:20, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's OK to revert my edits, but I'd like a little more discussion. Why do none of my merger options seem appropriate to you? Right now, the article is continuing to stand as a stub, which seems inappropriate until it is ready to stand on its own (which I agree it could if someone was willing to do the expansion work). But right now, it seems more convenient to place it elsewhere; for example, it certainly could neatly fall under Southern American English with I feel little controversy, since it demonstrates some of SAE's most advanced characteristics. I'd given you plenty of time to respond to me and you've either preferred to ignore me or not yet responded or what have you, which is fine, except that now you revert my edits almost immediately. Well then: let's continue the discussion please.... Wolfdog (talk) 18:40, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why it's not OK for the article to "stand as a stub". Wikipedia has many articles that are stubs, and these are not routinely merged or deleted. You proposed above that the article be merged, and the only response was my "oppose"; that hardly constitutes any consensus for you to go ahead with the merge. (I reiterate that OE and AE are similar but not identical, so your merger of the former to the latter seems unwarranted.) If you disagree with my reversion of your merger and redirection, I recommend the dispute resolution noticeboard be your next step. Deor (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't disagree with your arguments; just feel a merge would make it less pitiful at this point, and was hoping for some fuller discussion. Wolfdog (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger from "Ozark English"? 

message: An anon has just changed  to  Is that what the source says? As far as I can see, the reference () doesn't say most of (or anything) what we claim it does. Is it essentially a reference falsification? Peter238 (talk) 08:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that you corrected the link in the citation (thanks). We don't know if anon 24.249.99.118 actually saw the source or just made it up based on personal opinion; that IP address geolocates to Oklahoma and that is the anon's only edit. I restored the previous version. But even before the anon's change, I question the reliability of sourcing someone from the Oklahoma Historical Society whose knowledge of the subject matter is unknown. The sentence needs a better source from someone with known expertise in Southern American English. Sundayclose (talk) 14:21, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, and I agree it needs a better source. Thanks for the answer. Peter238 (talk) 17:38, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference falsification? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The way this article is worded makes it sound like Southern American English is barely present in Oklahoma, while the maps make it seem as if the accent is present in the majority of the state.
The Southeastern Super Region map is seemingly inconsistent with the following two statements: 
"[Southern American English] is marginally documented (often, as a South Midland accent) throughout Oklahoma, the eastern half of Kansas, Greater St. Louis, metropolitan Decatur in Illinois, metropolitan Indianapolis in Indiana, the Miami Valley in Ohio, the remainder of West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and southwestern and southern Pennsylvania."
"Thus, a modern Southeastern dialectal super-region is defined by essentially the whole American South, including all of the Gulf region (even Florida), the Mid- and South Atlantic regions, and a transitional Midland dialect area between the South and the North, lying above the strict Southern region and comprising most of Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, southeastern Nebraska, Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio."
This caught my attention because I am from Oklahoma and I find it beyond a stretch to say that Southern American English is only marginally present in Oklahoma. I realize that anecdotal or personal evidence is not encyclopedia-worthy, but there is an obvious disparity between the maps and the description of Oklahoma's accent in the article. Either the maps are more accurate or the text in the article is more accurate regarding Oklahoma; my own experiences tell me the maps are more accurate. I see that previous comments also question the accuracy of the text and I would like to see this get settled.
Thanks!
Down yonder (talk) 04:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Previously on this talk page I raised a concern about the map because it seems to be a synthesis of several sources, and doesn't even represent those sources very well. Someone commented that it is derived from the Univ. of PA Telsur project, but if you look at the maps from which it is supposedly taken, there are quite noticeable discrepancies. See my comments at Talk:Southern American English/Archive 1#Delete image. I think the map is misleading and represents one editor's opinion. I still think it should be removed from the article. Sundayclose (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the map may be sloppy, but not necessarily synthesis of the original-research type. :File:Southern_American_English.svg, :File:SouthernEnglishMap.jpg, and :File:SoutheasternSuperregionMap.jpg all attempt to demarcate a Southern dialect area. The third image is one I've been trying to edit to match more closely what is actually stated in the ANAE. WP:SYNTH says "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." However, while the areas marked on the map do indeed combine information (all basically from the ANAE, though I see it is oddly not directly sourced), it is all information quite "explicitly stated" in the ANAE, though the ANAE's own maps are imprecise. I think the map provides a helpful visual and we would do well to clean it up rather than remove it. I'd be happy to go back and edit the boundaries again if you feel something is misrepresented. Wolfdog (talk) 03:17, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks . My major concern is the sloppiness. And it should be properly sourced. A lingering concern is, if there is discrepancy among the sources from which it is derived, how is that represented here? Sundayclose (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What particular areas do you feel are poorly represented? Perhaps an alternative better map would be one that resembles :File:Inland_North_Map.jpg, which uses exact dots (rather than more open-to-interpretation lines and colored areas) to represent the documented dialect area. Wolfdog (talk) 18:37, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I've been mixing up images. It seems that the image was changed since the time I first raised the issue on the talk page about a year ago (or maybe I was confused then). I guess I should first seek clarification. Is the green portion of the image in the article (:File:SoutheasternSuperregionMap.jpg) based solely on this image?  If so there are differences in Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Florida. If the map is derived from multiple sources I don't know the others are. Sundayclose (talk) 19:32, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I may have solved our problem. Under the phonology section of this article, I have replaced the old one with a new map that uses the precision of dots instead of the vague broad color boundaries. What do you think? Wolfdog (talk) 22:52, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

text: It seems unlikely that some Oklahomans would have a coastal Southern accent, since the state has no coast; however, I'll admit that it's possible (probably only among older speakers). Regardless, this is all meaningless on Wikipedia unless you can provide references that support your argument. Also, the idea that the south Midland accent of northern Oklahoma is "by no means consistent with what you hear in Kansas" is frankly ridiculous; the two states share a border and there is no reason to believe an imaginarily-drawn state boundary would act like a physical wall against the spreading of an accent. If you have actual specific features and evidence/sources to support your complaints, please present them plainly so we can figure out what actually needs to be changed on the page, if anything. Wolfdog (talk) 04:45, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: For scholarly research on the dialect situation in Oklahoma, I would look to the work of Jon Bakos. I don't have the energy to try and read up on this now myself, though. AJD (talk) 07:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's a very interesting read. Sorry to get off-topic for a moment, but do you know of any similar research focusing on Texas? Wolfdog (talk) 16:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Meaning, like, a dialectological overview of the state? Not off the top of my head, I'm afraid. I know of some studies of Houston or other individual communities. AJD (talk) 17:58, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the deal with Southern Accents in Oklahoma? 

message: Hi. What I tried to give with the map you deleted was specific cities that had been identified with varying degrees of "Southern dialect" character. I'd be happy to mend the map if you give me specifics on what you found confusing. The ANAE map that you replaced it with gives dialects of the whole country, which is unnecessary and even more likely confusing to readers. Thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 13:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps