Talk:Macedonian Australians

message: Regarding certain people listed on the article page who are frequently removed and readded by reverts:
Chris Joannou - I've found no solid evidence of him being either Greek or Slavomacedonian, so it'll be best to simply say he's Australian and leave it at that.
Tom Petsinis - I have found several pages on Google which suggest that he is actually Greek Macedonian: , , . He was born in Greek Macedonia, can speak both languages, but identifies himself as Greek according to the third source (a quote from himself).
Arch Tambakis - Can't find anything about him.
Paul Delianis - Likewise.
Peter Daicos - He was picked for the Greek AFL Team of the Century, which would imply some sort of Greek heritage. Also appears frequently in interviews for the Neos Kosmos English Edition based on his Greek heritage 
Bobby Despotovski - He is Serbian: , , , .
Stan Lazaridis - His parents hail from Greek Macedonia , . See also WP:MWNB#Stan_Lazaridis and Talk:Stan_Lazaridis for further discussion.
Alex Marcou - No sources supporting Slavomacedonian heritage.   
-- Greekfire 06:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: People on the list

message: This article needs disambiguations (there are thousands of Greeks who also call themselves Macedonian and have demostrated as such). There is no mention of 'Slav Macedonians', that is the appelation under which they demonstrated and organised themselves after WWII. Other points also. So I suggest,  and/or    and/or . I am not, dear friends and fellow editors, challenging the validity of this article to appear or the fact that there are thousands of Australians who refer to themselves as 'Macedonian' in the sense of 'not Greek'. Politis 12:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Querry

message: The article says, "Macedonians have been arriving in Australia since the late 1880s". I have seen no evidence that the people arriving from Balkans referred to themselves (not by others) as 'Macedonian' in an ethnic sense. To the best of my knowledge, this only occurs after WWII. Also, it would seem that only Greek citizens from Greek Macedonia called themselves 'Macedonians' or more often 'Slav Macedonians' - at least in the early stages. Politis 16:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: clarification

message: I am noticing a few edit wars on this site, from all sides with some pretty dumb nationalism.  I have no ancestral roots to either Greece or Macedonia and I am happy to arbitrate if you want a neutral observer.  I am equally biased against everybody!  Kransky (talk) 13:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already said what I wanted to say in the section above, which I wrote about a year ago, and no-one has seen fit to argue any of those points so it's only reasonable that they be reflected in the article, unless that anon or anyone else wants to find some sources to prove otherwise. Greekfire (talk) 10:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Can we have a bit more civility here please?

message: This article could do with a fix: duplicated information, spelling mistakes, punctuation mistakes, words used incorrectly, lists with no context etc.  Kransky (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A good tidy up needed

message: The image :Image:Macedonian Iskra.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
*:Image:Slsc.png
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --11:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Macedonian Iskra.gif

message: Does anyone know what the sources for all of the information in the state-by-state section of the history part of the article are? It's a massively detailed section with very little by way of references. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone have any ideas? It would be a shame if we had to start deleting the unsourced material, but it needs to be verified. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Cordless Larry, i can assure you that the information is accurate. Much information is from the "Macedonians in Australia" book by Peter Hill 1989. That is why it is down the bottom in the references section. The demographics data is from the Australian Beuareua (sorry about the spelling) of Statistics and is accurate. Much of the 1990s + information is from macedonian media and macedonian community sources since then. If you need any clarification see me, i have written the article from scratch. Feel free to speak to me just dont delete anything. PMK1 (talk) 10:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying the situation. I don't doubt that the material is accurate, but the problem is that Wikipedia policy, in the form of WP:Verifiability, states: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true". I'm not going to remove the information immediately, but the issue does need addressing at some point. The fact that the Peter Hill book is listed in the references doesn't really cut it because, as you point out, the material is based on several sources and, as it stands, it's impossible to tell which source supports each part of the material. Would it be possible for you to add proper citations to the material? It wouldn't have to be done all at once, but perhaps you could take a section-by-section approach over the course of several weeks? If you use citation templates and name each reference, it's just a case of adding a short tag with the citation name to each subsequent reference. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:02, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I notice that no action has been taken to address this situation. Since no reply has been posted here either, I will start to remove the unsourced information at the end of next week. If progress has been made by then, I will delay the removal of material so as not to disrupt the addition of sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there have been no objections, I will start removing unsourced material tomorrow. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed most of the unsourced material. If anyone wishes to restore it, with the addition of references, please see this revision of the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

text: CL, you could have at least messaged me about this before you started deleting information which was correct. Please refrain from such moves again, because you believe it not to be true. Please tell what is incorrect in the text. As an outsider you should be learning here and not teaching. Best wishes. PMK1 (talk) 09:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As explained above, the standard for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. I am not suggesting that the material is false but rather that it is not possible from reading it to verify whether it is true because no citations are given. Sorry for not informing you personally but it is difficult to inform all individual contributors to an article and, as you can see, I gave plenty of notice here. I don't understand your comment about me being an outsider. Anyone is entitled to edit Wikipedia articles. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but i was disconnected from the internet for a while there. I am sure that i can properly reference the text. Just please dont revert me. PMK1 (talk) 06:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What basis (in Wikipedia policy) do you have for your claim to not be reverted? I am glad to hear that you think that you can reference the material but until you do, it shouldn't be there. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I see that you've reverted my edit, but you haven't sourced the material. If you continue with this behaviour, I will request that you be blocked from editing. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but unfortunately i do not have all day to attach sources to a Wikipedia document. You might have realised by now that the Macedonian Australian community is not all that well documented in English language text. I really cannot see why this has become such a big issue. The point of this project is to have information and not to just delete it ASAP. PMK1 (talk) 03:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case you should only restore the material as and when you can source it. This is an issue because of WP:Verifiability. Your comment about the lack of sources in English and your edit summaries suggest that you might not be able to find sources for all of the material. In this case, it shouldn't be there. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As i said i will source it. It is just unhelpful when you revert every day the information which I have not had time to source. Give it some patience. PMK1 (talk) 11:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying. How long do you anticipate this taking? I did first raise this issue in December, so it's not as if I haven't given you notice. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:01, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Fine i will make a deal with you. Everytime i logon i will go to this page first and add a source. :) PMK1 (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So how long will it take to source the whole article? Cordless Larry (talk) 09:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

text: PS: It would be helpful if you could make use of citation templates when adding the references. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

text: It is now approaching a month since you edited the article. Do you still intend to add sources? If not, I will beging removing the unsourced material again. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I stumbled on this article recently and even though i had seen this a few years ago, i noticed substantial changes made to it. I recommend that in order to make the article more clear and authentic, i suggest that any information included here should be done on the basis that it is 100% correct and not somebodies opinion. I find that there is a huge overlap in the article in regards to people of Macedonian origin who also identify themselves as Greek. This has been conveniently used by the writer of this article to distort the figures and make the Slav Macedonian part of Australia look better than what it actually is. An example of this is in regards to Peter Daicos. Is he Greek Macedonian or Slavo Macedonian.
Another major problem & POV is the phrase Aegean Macedonian. This should be removed from the article. There is no such thing as an Aegean Macedonia. My father & his massive family came here in the late 1940's and identified themselves as Macedonian Greek (in other words a Greek from the Greek state of Macedonia). Never the less, on the censor he was Macedonian & many of these people are now being used to boost the figures to suit political propaganda. I noted that there is no mention of Serbian Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, Bulgarian Macedonians, etc in the article. Do they exist & how have they identified in the census? Of course they do so this is an indication as to the biased intent of this article by not including any of these people as a separate entity in the figures.  
Another issue is when you claim that the Greek Orthodox Church in Shepparton is not what it says it is, Greek. This is an insult to anybody who has been involved in the establishment and running of that church. The Greek community in this town has been large & strong from before 1900 and the history of the Greek Macedonians there deserves a bit more respect than what has been intended in this article. 
So my suggestions to improving this article is to only include things which are 100% indisputable and not try to incorporate items just to bulk things out to make the article look longer & better. Its compatible to getting a bigger better car because you have an inferiority complex.
As to getting accurate information on the people you are claiming to be Ethnic Macedonians as you refer to them, before you include them in the article, i suggest contact be made with the ones still alive and ask them what they identify with. I know this is time consuming and may not always be possible, especially when some of the people are no longer with us, but i am sure they have remaining family which of course is the next best authentic information obtainable. I think that any reporting whether professional or otherwise owes its readers accurate & proper first hand research otherwise it is only one persons theory and opinion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellasforever (talk • contribs) 21:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  INTENTIONAL CONFUSION & AMBIGUITY  

message: There is a photo of Resurrection of Christ, Macedonian Orthodox Church. Where is this church? It almost certainly a re-commissioned church of another Christian denomination, what is the history? Why? To show why this photo should be in this wikipage, and to give the historical context of the common reuse of churches in Australia by other more recently established Christian denominations. Brunswicknic (talk) 07:56, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in Rockdale, according to :File:Rockdale Macedonian Orthodox Church.JPG. There are so many problems with this article - huge sections lack sources and are possibly original research - and it could really do with thorough revision. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:05, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It could do with a serious pruning. It's a remarkably long and detailed article given the lack of reliable sourcing, and the number of people who constitute 2nd and 3rd generation ethnic ties. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:55, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is this church, what is it's history? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Reading the source of James Jupp in the section, it does not mention ANYWHERE that the Macedonians referred to themselves as Bulgarians pre-WW2. Hence, I have removed the section specifically pertaining to these views. Jingiby, I have since redone your revert yet await your reply.   Macedonia (talk) 02:49, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Read all added sources, please, not only one. More, see article as ethnic Macedonians and Macedonian nationalism, where the process of development of Macedonian identity is described. Most authors, agree that Macedonian identity was developed especially after WWII and that until then the majority of the Macedonian Slavs, who had any national identity felt themselves to be Bulgarians. And stop deleting sourced content, only because you dislike it. Jingiby (talk) 04:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: PS. James Jupp is only the editor. Author of the section is Peter Hill, who is slightly pro-Macedonian. But he also recognizes that  "The first overseas Macedonian organisation in Australia was the Bulgarian-oriented Macedonian Political Organisation (MPO) in the United States, later renamed the Macedonian Patriotic Organisation, which held its first congress at Fort Wayne, Indiana, in 1922 etc." More, the most prominent non-Balkan scholars, who deal with the Macedonian diasporas, seem to be unanimous that until 1945, the majority of the Macedonian immigrants of Slavic origin identified themselves as Bulgarians and, more rarely, as Greeks. Victor Roudometoff acknowledges the ethnic identity of the early immigrants, pointing out that: ‘In the case of the Macedonian diasporas, there are three distinct groups holding out different images of Macedonia. These are the Greek Macedonians, the Bulgarian Macedonians, and the post-1945  ethnic Macedonians. The last group is by far the most recent addition to the list. The American anthropologist Loring Danforth, who became famous for his work on the identity conflict between the Greek and Macedonian diasporas in Australia, also confirms the observations of Roudometof... This conclusion is not mine, check that. Jingiby (talk) 12:47, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The information well sourced. I don't see any problems with this. Especially after Jingiby's latest additions. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻  (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 13:30, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referring to Macedonians as Bulgarians 

message: It is highly contentious and obviously causes many readers to be upset. Therefore the article is better of not having it, following the Serbian Australians article for example.
To further highlight the flaws with the box, to what degree can these groups be "related"? One can argue for the additional placement of Greek and Albanian Australians, or argue for no related ethnic groups outside of ethnic Macedonians. Beat of the tapan (talk) 03:58, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Related ethnic groups" box should be dropped  

message: Please make update with latest numbers from Australian census. 
https://skopskoeho.mk/vo-avstralija-ima-111-352-makedonci-sekoj-vtor-go-zboruva-makedonskiot-jazik-doma/ Voritlas (talk) 02:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No one has really shown much interest in adding sources to the article since I raised that issue in 2008 (see #Sources above), , so unless you want to update it yourself, I wouldn't hold out much hope anyone else will! Cordless Larry (talk) 20:14, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

text: That said, I see that the overall population figures currently used are from after 2008. It's the history section (including the population figures quoted there) that's more of a problem. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update needed with the latest census numbers