Talk:BAMN

message: the wording "standing up for minority voting rights by exposing the racially-targeted voter fraud committed by the so-called Michigan "Civil Rights" Initiative." shows blatant bias by the author in conveying skewed opinion on the matters of both the group and their actions.
For one, the MCRI has nothing to do with voting.  It means to end affirmative action in the hiring of state jobs and agencies and in the admissions processes of state schools and universities.  Currently, affirmative action gives special treatment by gender and ethnicity (to women and to anyone not asian or caucasian) simply by their genetic being.  True civil equality would level the playing field for all persons giving no special treatment for anyone and basing all matters solely on merit.  The Civil Rights of the 1960s aimed to end laws which discriminated by race and the result has been discrimination in the other direction.  There is nothing civil, equal or right about that.
Simply put, BAMN has their reasons for wanting to continue affirmative action, but the debate itself is largely open to interpretation.  BAMN's challenge has been heard and defeated in the Michigan courts already and they are taking it to Federal court, at the very least, to keep the matter tied up as long as possible.
If their aim was just, they would have nothing to fear from a vote of the people.
Thier bias, however, leans on something which is portrayed in aggression as a first impression for those interested in thier literature. This stance is but one which the political right is fighting the left on.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by KenKut (talk • contribs) 23:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of neutrality 

message: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051215/POLITICS/512150335
that's a link to a detroit news article showing the behaviour of BAMN at a State Board of Canvassers meeting in December of 2005.
Part of the article reads:
"The meeting was disrupted by an opposition group, By Any Means Necessary, which recruited students from Cody, Cass Tech, Crockett and Mumford high schools in Detroit and Oak Park High School to swarm the meeting and keep the board from voting.
Students chanted "no voter fraud" and "they say Jim Crow, we say hell no," danced on chair seats and made obscene gestures at the board.
At one point, many of the protesters rushed toward the board members, overturning a testimony table. Lansing police officers were called to restore order."
l  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.174.66 (talk) 12:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia's duty as an encyclopedia is to convey information, NOT to make BAMN look good.  The parts of the principle that have been edited out simply contain self-glorifying language without conveying any information.  The edits make the statement of principles at least somewhat compliant with WP:NPOV.  The Detroit schools event will be put back up once the judge in that case issues a final ruling.  The reason is one of convenience and readability: if we put it up now, the entire section will consist of one or two sentences and won't be particularly informative.  Instead, we should put it up once the judge issues a final decision so that we can write up a detailed section using sources that will analyze that decision.  As far as your remaining posts of BAMN's activities, you did not provide sufficient sources to back up those claims and they were therefore removed pursuant to WP:V. Idag (talk) 21:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Press citation 

message: Pursuant to WP:NPOV, articles must be phrased neutrally.  An article should provide an encyclopedic overview of an oranization, it should not be an advertisement for that organization.  BAMN's statement of principles essentially states that the organization promotes affirmative action.  The article already contains that information.  However, statements like "BAMN is committed to making real America's founding declaration that 'all men are created equal'" are neither neutral nor encyclopedic and amount to nothing more to an advertisement.  In addition, per WP:V, we are supposed to use third-party sources.  As such, please refrain from using information for which BAMN is the only source.  Idag (talk) 22:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a verifiable non-BAMN source stating that BAMN submitted a brief or did anything else in Grutter v. Brollinger, then by all means include that information.  I added information about the fact that BAMN was only one of 44 parties because everyone and their brother was a party in Grutter, so being a named party is not an accomplishment (especially considering the fact that BAMN's lawyers didn't argue the case in front of the Supreme Court).  If you feel that other parts of this article are distorted, then please feel free to fix them (in a neutral way and citing verifiable third-party sources).  However, the way to fix a POV imbalance is NOT to add what amounts to an advertisment for the organization.  In addition, please stop putting in the statement of principles into the article until we actually have a consensus on that issue. Idag (talk) 21:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

text: As far as the other articles, the ACLU's mission statement is limited to one very short sentence and is not a full paragraph mission statement.  The quote is necessary there because the ACLU does many things that can't be phrased as one category (it does affirmative action, criminal law, women's rights, free speech, etc.), so its more concise to include a very short quote from its mission statement.  In contrast, BAMN only has one purpose: to promote and maintain affirmative action, so its more concise and neutral to simply summarize that purpose. Idag (talk) 21:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

text: The language of principle 3 isn't even close to neutral.  If you can find verifiable third party sources stating that BAMN does the things that you have just described, then please feel free to include them. Idag (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Looking again at principle 3, it doesn't mention ANY of the things that you just mentioned.  It has some generic language about equality, but the only policy it actually mentions is affirmative action. Idag (talk) 01:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Please assume good faith and refrain from insulting other editors; I have extended that courtesy to you even though Geolocate implies that you are probably a member of BAMN.  For Wikipedia's code of conduct, it may be helpful to read WP:Good Faith and WP:Civil.  In addition, Wikipedia policy explicitly states that "[a]rticles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."  WP:V(emphasis added).  Other articles may violate this policy, but two wrongs don't make a right.  Finally, if you add new facts to this article, you need to support each of those facts with a verifiable source.  Please read WP:V in its entirety to examine the necessary requirements.  For a good example, take a look at the durian article and notice how almost every sentence in the body of the article has a footnote after it that provides the reader with an outside source where that information can be found. Idag (talk) 21:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

text: First, please do not remove tags until you have a consensus.  With your recent edits, you've added references to the article, so I'll agree with you that the unreferenced tag can go.  However, since you are a BAMN member editing a BAMN page, you have a conflict of interest and that is why the Conflict of Interest tag needs to stay.  As far as the statement of principles, I agree with you that it is true, however, my issue is not with its truthfulness but with its neutrality.  Purusant to WP:NPOV, articles must convey information in as neutral way as possible.  That statement of principles only really states that BAMN wants a "national policy of affirmative action".  The "equality for all" language doesn't really convey anything (there's millions of different ways to go about achieving "equality for all").  I think the very language of this Statement of Principles is too self-glorifying, which is why it shouldn't be here, but if you want to paraphrase it to neutrally convey information and add other reliable sources discussing what else BAMN does besides affirmative action, I wouldn't have a problem with that.  As a sign of good faith, I'll leave the statement of principles up there for now, but we do need to address these issues soon. Idag (talk) 15:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I've trimmed the language to make it more concise and neutral and I think its a good compromise lede. Idag (talk) 19:44, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

text: BAMN's full statement of principles is a mouthful and it is clearly not neutral.  I have compromised on the language and if we keep the other self-glorifying bits, then it would clearly violate WP:NPOV without adding anything substantial to the article.  As far as the litigation, I removed it because there's currently not much to say in that section.  The issue is under advisement by the judge, so I figure once the judge actually makes a ruling, we can put it back up with the judge's substantive commentary. Idag (talk) 15:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  BAMN's statement of principles 

message: Hi there;  I agree with the tone of some criticial sentiments above:  this article seems a  minor collection of left-over ends and various bits of an un-productive editorial process lacking much sense, organization, presentation, style... Evidence of this is the fact that the very *definition* of the BAMN acronym was suspiciously hidden behind a Principle.... But BAMN rilly oughta be proud and up-front with it's in-yo-face thing, hmm?  in re-writing I found many instances of distorted- as well wholesale failures- of sense, meaning, spelling, etc. Sorry if I'm steppin' on toes, but I've largely re-organized your material I found, adding critical points, including some unified style.
I rilly question the tone of the "Criticism" section. The act of busing high school students from one area [say, Metro Detroit] to another [BAMN rallies] is like, a fairly  common act in the USA; it's the foundation of intramural sports as well as debate teams, and thus a legitimate tactic widely used throughout the political spectrum... AND it is consistent with BAMN's appeal to disadvantaged students. WHAT is the point of mentioning busing, Michigan?
Then there's this statement
"Additionally "a BAMN leader" has been accused of displaying a knife during a disagreement."
This reads very diffrent from the account in the WSJ [ at www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110009275 ]
making it appear this may be more mud than blood. Unfortunatley the entire "Crit" section reads as raw  reaction- which I imagine might encourage BAMN loud-mouths . I've edited the Crit section much.
ME: Since 2002 I've been familiar with and followed both BAMN and their opposition on the UC Berkeley campus.
never been able to connect 2 BAMN memberz. National leadership's narrow & strident at best; the local leadership are disappointingly unqualified around the better-funded robust arguments fed  by the Feds to College Republicans.  BAMN appear more about peer pressure than persuasion- much less about alternatives; a true political "party" with cool black-armband party  favors. Ultimately BAMN appears green but possibly sterile due to a major lack in organizing within, or prominent empathy for, any working class. Hilarleo (talk) 06:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-Organization

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on BAMN. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070928004411/http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2298 to http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2298
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20051223102451/http://newstandardnews.net:80/content/index.cfm/items/2298 to http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2298
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 03:15, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on BAMN. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150429125759/http://newstandardnews.net:80/content/index.cfm/items/2298 to http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2298
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060530134437/http://www.statenews.com:80/article.phtml?pk=31230 to http://www.statenews.com/article.phtml?pk=31230
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on BAMN. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110727082307/http://www.michigannlg.org/Pubs/ITS/June2006.pdf to http://www.michigannlg.org/Pubs/ITS/June2006.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on BAMN. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110707210814/http://www.bamn.com/stopacri/ to http://www.bamn.com/stopacri/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've just seen a video from Sargon of Akkad about cultish behaviour from BAMN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQwfTPqn5kc
He links to an ex-BAMN blog: https://secretsurvivorsofbamn.wordpress.com/
I don't think there are sufficient reliable sources for inclusion, however it appears this may become important for this article in the future.
As Sargon is very public and has a big audience, I would suggest immediately that we put some sort of protection on this article. --Nanite (talk) 00:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with including information on their cult-like behavior. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 00:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

text: IP editor, please realize that wikipedia doesn't work by just throwing any old information onto an article, especially not when it concerns real people. No matter how bad BAMN may or may not be, the included things have to be sourced properly. --Nanite (talk) 00:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cult-like behaviour? Also, we probably need to protect this article. 

message: Looking through the ref's there are a few press releases in there from BAMN themselves apparently, if they aren't discussed elsewhere, should we be including them, or the text they support?  At a glance the text seems quite promotional and puffy. Arkon (talk) 23:14, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Added tag.  Arkon (talk) 01:15, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Hope I didn't butcher it too much, but tried to remove all primary/press released sourced info per the above.  Arkon (talk) 23:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Press Releases 

message: I removed this section as it was sourced only to the award page itself.  I tried finding some notability for the award, but we seem to only cover it as a redirect to SCLC.  Arkon (talk) 23:27, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drum Major for Justice award 

message: It seems violence has been removed with the edit summary stating that the removal of violence as one of the necessary means to achieve the aims of the group is "unsupported by cited source". The discussions above regard including this aspect in the lead and I doubt that it's necessary to include it in the opening paragraph but the fact that the group includes violence as part of their toolkit is well documented. Here is a link from my hometown newspaper that states "Yvette Felarca, from activist group By Any Means Necessary, says her group's violent reaction to a white supremacist rally at the California Capitol will help prevent violence against immigrants. She was later arrested and faces assault charges", and supports the assertion that the group uses violence. My suggestion is to include the group's violent methods but not necessarily in the lead paragraph. 173.87.169.150 (talk) 00:55, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That actually does not support that the group uses violence. The quote you have is actually the caption to a video, a video where the person never says anything about their violence. Regardless, even putting aside that it was a caption and not the article prose, that still would not support a statement that the group engages in violence. It would at most support that one associated activist says that their violence is justified to prevent violence against immigrants. This is really very simple, a source that says flat out that BAMN engages in violence is what is needed to include that. Not some circuitous route to get there, but flat out says it. nableezy - 01:57, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violence