Talk:W. H. Auden/Archive 2

message: I am sorry, but now that I have let some time lapse and I come back to read the article from beginning to end I cannot help being struck by the insertion of a plethora of minor characters and details, contrasted to the glaring omission of a person with whom he spent two entire summer vacations, who was deeply important to him in his emotional and artistic life, and who featured in his social life for forty three years, until practically his last days. And in exchange we are treated to the names of casual roommates, apocryphal street addresses and punctilious details of his father's professional duties. This makes no sense. Haiduc 17:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again - that's an excellent point about the street address, by which I think you mean "Middagh Street" (which isn't apocryphal at all, but it certainly was obscure). I've now tried to clarify the importance of that shared house, which has had an entire book written about it (plus a series of poems by Paul Muldoon titled "7 Middagh Street", and a play, and a few other things). About important events and persons in Auden's life, I am constantly reworking this page in an attempt to get the emphasis right. Auden had a remarkably full life - spending summer vacations and long stretches of winter with quite a few people who were also the themes of many poems and who aren't included in what is intended as a encyclopedia entry. (John Thompson, the original of "Malin" in The Age of Anxiety is one glaring example; an even more glaring one is James Stern; also Margaret Gardiner and Anne Fremantle, with active connections extending from 1927 or 28 until Auden's death.) But I will certainly continue to work on this. The goal, it seems to me, is to make this page worthy of Wikipedia standards, which means getting the balance right. Please pay another visit in a day or two, and I'll see what improvements I can continue to make. Macspaunday 18:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In mentioning people such as Thompson and Stern, I should of course emphasize that I'm quite confident that the balance of the page as it stands is quite good, and I don't think anyone who is reasonably expert on Auden and his works would have any serious dispute about the shape and balance of the entry. Macspaunday 18:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, that Auden and Stern collaborated for many years - in one of those collaborations that Auden had in mind when he wrote that collaboration had brought him "more erotic joy" than any sexual relationship had ever brought him. Thank you again for a comment that reminded me of all this.  (Stern deserves a much more detailed treatment than I've given him, not only because he was so central to so many years of Auden's life and work, but also because he was important on his own, and in his relations with other major writers. What could I have been thinking of?) Macspaunday 19:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And after more thought, I realize that your comment on "summer vacations" was absolutely useful in reminding me of James Stern, and helping me to confirm that my overall approach to this page is the right one, and that it guarantees a Wikipedia-worthy, verifiable, neutral-point-of-view entry. Thank you again. Macspaunday 23:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad to be of service, as always. I may pop in from time to time with my monomaniacal use of the "Yatesean bed" as measuring rod for striking out any details of less than passing interest. Haiduc 00:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Always welcome - and, if you've looked at the history of the page, you'll see that I've already taken the opportunity to remove some less-than-encyclopedia-worthy material. (Amazing how many things look less important in the cold light of the following week.) There's some more to trim, but I'll get to that tomorrow. Then off to expand other entries that at the moment look (in contrast) underdeveloped. By the way, you mentioned Uranian poetry in an earlier message - I assume you've looked at D'Arch Smith's book on the subject, which still seems to me to be the most knowledgeable (and perhaps still the only real historical study of the subject). Macspaunday 01:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. My dalliance with the Uranians is at the very beginning. Both D'Arch Smith and Kaylor are on my "to read" list. I am slowly making my way from Cory et Cie. Quite a complex character, and seemingly the mastermind of that epoch. Haiduc 02:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just glanced at the Uranian Poetry entry, and I see there's a huge kerfluffle about the origin of the word "Uranian". I'm merely guessing, and have no direct knowledge of the 19th-century sources, but surely the word refers to the "Uranian Venus", meaning ideal love rather than merely physical love, and associated with the Venus born of Uranus (not from a woman). Every educated person in the UK at that time would have recognized the allusion to this idea in the "Symposium". (Not a Wikipedia-worthy point; just an assumption, but I would be astonished if it were mistaken.) Macspaunday 03:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Without a doubt. I have not worked on that piece extensively, but I am sure that once everything is properly cited things will work out. Haiduc 03:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back to the missing Michael Yates 

message: Having added many passages on this page, I now see that I need to provide sources for some quotations. The following is a list of notes to myself about passages that need citations, and where to find the citations, that I'll pare down as the citations get addded:
Rookhope as "sacred landscape" - from 1970s lecture to Phila. Psychoanalytic Society - done
Alter ego - letter to A. E. Dodds, quoted in biographies; marriage and honeymoon - letters to brother, quoted in biographies. - done
Sainthood of Charles Williams - Modern Canterbury Pilgrims essay - done
childish - quote from Bonhoeffer
If equal affection - cite poem - done
the only subject - letter to James Stern in Auden Studies 3 - done
dishonest poems - Preface to Collected Shorter Poems - done
family ghosts - cite poem - done
change of heart - cite poem - done
anarchist leg-pull - Edition of Plays - done and corrected
sacred importance - cite Protestant Mystics essay - done
Macspaunday 02:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Made a start on these... Macspaunday 23:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And more... Macspaunday 02:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One more... Macspaunday 14:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two more... Macspaunday 14:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes to self: sources needed 

message: Besides my usual quibble, another one, perhaps minor. While your description of his love interests at the time seems evenhanded, I question their reduction to "sexual relations." These appear to have been love affairs, at least one of which progressed into life-long friendship. I think it is a distinction that needs to be made, lest the uninitiated think we are referring to trysts in a tea room. Perhaps at some point you will countenance naming one or two examples of such relationships - the burden is minimal and people will want to know. But that is a different matter. Haiduc 16:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, will fix that phrase to be emotionally accurate. Actually, there are quite a few names throughout Auden's life, but I've followed Wikipedia principles on the recording of sexual relations, and have tried to prevent the inevitable bloat that results when names start to multiply. To be continued, perhaps in a few months. Macspaunday 17:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I hope my edits have not altered your intended meaning. Haiduc 17:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all; I think I want to mull over "courtship" which sounds a bit Victorian, but I'm not sure I can think of an alternative. Whatever I do won't change the meaning. Macspaunday 17:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unequal 

message: Just removing links is not a polite way forward, why not discuss them first? The link I added this morning by Katheraine Bucknell  (Ctrl-click)">In Praise of a Guilty Genius, The Observer, 4 Feb 2007 is an excellent well-informed article about Auden. why remove it? without such justification the arrogant unilateral removal of good material begs revert, thanks Peter morrell 12:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, please ignore that; the link is still there! It seemed to have disappeared earlier but it has reappeared; profuse apologies for any implied mortification, kind regards Peter morrell 12:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That link was never removed - I simply reformatted the entry to conform to the recommended style. Possibly it didn't appear in your  browser because the browser cache confused matters. The article in question is indeed an excellent one! Macspaunday 13:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I just noticed that in reformatting the link I used the name of the site (The Guardian) in place of the name of the newspaper (The Observer). It's fixed now. Macspaunday 14:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing links

message: To celebrate his forthcoming birth centenary The Independent published this  (Ctrl-click)"> long Audenesque poem which MIGHT be of interest to readers of this article. It dates from December 2006. Certainly of interest to fans of his poetry. regards Peter morrell 21:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you might want to suggest this link to the Auden Society web site, which has a much more extensive page of links than I tend to think would be suitable here. My own tentative feeling about this one is: not really suitable to an encyclopedia entry unless we're also prepared to include about fifty to a hundred Audenesque poems written between 1935 and 2007, and fill the bottom half of the page with links to poems that sound more or less like Auden. There were many such things a few years ago when the last "Night Mail" train ended its run, and you can find plenty of examples with a simple blog search - some of them very entertaining, but not really encyclopedia-worthy, I think! Macspaunday 21:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Audenesque poem

message: This very long paragraph (by an editor identified only by an IP adderess) on Auden and Tolkien seems far too long in relation to an encyclopedia entry, and focuses on Tolkien, not Auden, although it is not quite accurate (see below), it is certainly worth preserving, and perhaps should be revised to be part of the Tolkien entry. Here it is:
:Auden became close friends with the Oxford academic and fantasy writer J. R. R. Tolkien. Auden was an emphatic supporter of Tolkien's writings, beginning with Tolkien's The Hobbit (1937) and later his renowned epic The Lord of the Rings (1954-55), of which Auden remarked: "No fiction I have read, in the last five years, has given me more joy." Although they met very rarely in their lifetimes, their love of Old English connected them deeply and they corresponded through letters for many years. In 1971, two years before both men would pass away, Tolkien was asked about his friendship with Auden, to which Tolkien replied: "I am, however, very deeply in Auden's debt in recent years. His support of me and interest in my work has been one of my chief encouragements. He gave me very good reviews, notices and letters from the beginning when it was by no means a popular thing to do. He was, in fact, sneered at for it. I regard him as one of my great friends although we have so seldom met except through letters and gifts of his works." 
This is not quite accurate: Auden had nothing to say about The Hobbit in 1937, or, indeed, at any time; his writings about Tolkien were entirely limited to the Lord of the Rings trilogy and some references to Tolkien's work on fairy tales. Macspaunday 00:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tolkien and Auden 

message: I've moved the following from the main article, because it's one of very many honors and titles that Auden had over the years; because he never actually did anything as a chancellor of the academy except let his name be used; and because the page would become enormously unbalanced if all of them were listed (as they would have to be, if this one remained). For the record, here is the removed sentence:
: For nearly twenty years, from 1954 to 1973, Auden served as a Chancellor of the Academy of American Poets.
The sentence was added by user Mintmonkey. - Macspaunday 02:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken. However, I didn't include it as just an example of his many honors, but rather I thought it was interesting because it represented not only his acceptance into the American poetry community, but his esteemed position in the U.S. during his lifetime -- that he was seen as an American poet. But I defer to your judgment on the relevance. Mintmonkey 04:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He certainly was accepted into American literary society - he was a member of both the American Academy of Arts and Letters and the National Institute of Arts and Letters, and quite a few similar institutions. But I'm glad you agree that the page should focus on his life and work, and the information is now here on the talk page for all to see.... Macspaunday 12:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honors etc 

message: I'm doing some research into the CCF right now and Auden's name comes up but so far not directly. Anyone know anything on this?
--Nemesis1981 23:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He attended a few CCF meetings in New York, but was evidently bored by them, and had no day-to-day involvement at all. Probably the best source on the CCF is a book called "Who Paid the Piper" by Frances Stonor Saunders; it has more or less everything there is to be known. (I think the title was different in the US edition, but it was the same book.) Macspaunday 23:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auden and the Congress for Cultural Freedom 

message: 151.202.101.244 13:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Project tag moved to top -- Yamara 12:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: LGBT Project

message: A note on the images recently added to this page. Poetry tends to be falsified by visual images, and Auden always preferred plain typographic treatment of his works. All the images recently added to this page (except for the single portrait at the top) are illustrations of Auden's work: a film still that he apparently directed; the cover of his first book; a manuscript; an example of his typographic preferences. Macspaunday 14:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images of Auden's work 

message: (Ctrl-click)">This article may be helpful in expanding the page. HornetMike 15:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have added a brief account of this, with a link to that story. Thank you. Despite the big press this story is getting, there is almost nothing in it - and what little there is in it is already in the standard biographies, in more detail. MI5 thought Auden might have had something to do with Burgess and Maclean's disappearance, and he didn't.  Macspaunday 15:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Have added the title of the poem, though a proper treatment would need a separate page for it. Perhaps you would care to create it? I don't think there is any high-minded reluctance to include that wonderful poem; Auden wrote so many good poems that it's impossible to include every one of them in an encyclopedia entry, but this one is certainly appropriate here, exactly as you said. Macspaunday 12:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible addition

message: What is it with these W'pedia articles which, early on and therefore in a prime part of the article, tell us that W H Auden signed his work as (wait for it) W H Auden? One assumes he adopted this (what seems to strike some as wildly eccentric) practice because it was his name. What would one expect him to sign as? Gladys Wainwright?
:Wystan Auden's friend Stephen Spender usually signed his name "Stephen Spender", sometimes "S. H. Spender"; his friend Louis MacNeice signed his name "Louis MacNeice", very rarely "F. L. MacNeice"; his friend Cecil Day-Lewis sometimes used "C. Day-Lewis" sometimes "Cecil Day-Lewis"; Wystan Hugh Auden could have signed his name "Wystan Auden" or "Wystan Hugh Auden" or "Wystan H. Auden" (and he used some of these before he settled on W. H. Auden), so it's probably worth specifying which variety he actually used, though the sentence does look a bit tautological... Macspaunday 01:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: signature

message: It might be useful to say something explicit about the sources for recent edits to this entry. This is implicit in the entry, but it's worth putting it on record.
This entry is now based thoroughly on verifiable information in authoritative printed sources that are in turn based on original rather than second-hand research. These sources include: John Fuller's W. H. Auden: A Commentary; Edward Mendelson's Early Auden and Later Auden and his notes and introductions to the four volumes published so far of Auden's Complete Works; Humphrey Carpenter's W. H. Auden: A Life (still unsurpassed for depth of detail); Richard Davenport-Hines's Auden; many chapters of W. H. Auden: A Tribute, ed. by Stephen Spender; Thekla Clark's Wystan and Chester; the three volumes of Katherine Bucknell and Nicholas Jenkins's series of Auden Studies (all packed with useful information); and of course the Bloomfield-Mendelson Bibliography.
The Wikipedia guidelines emphasize that much material is not available online and that the best Wikipedia entries will often be based on printed sources. In Auden's case, this is certainly true. When I compare the quantity and quality of the material in these and other books with the quantity and quality of the information on Auden that is available online, it's clear that perhaps 99 percent of the significant information about Auden is only available in printed sources, that virtually all available online material is at best second- or third-hand, much of it produced by hurried journalists who seem to have glanced quickly at the printed material or at someone else's versions of the printed material.
A few noteworthy  exceptions to this are the online pages about Auden at the Swarthmore College Library  and some pages about Auden and the North (both of these are linked from the main page and also from the links page at the W. H. Auden Society site); these sites contain original research that is also available in print; the online versions are almost identical to the printed versions, and nothing is second-hand or unsourced.
The back issues of the W. H. Auden Society Newsletter posted at the Auden Society web site, also include original material. But for everything else, by far the most authoritative and extensive sources are available only in print. Macspaunday 22:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The page is now fairly thoroughly annotated with printed sources. Macspaunday 00:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Printed sources

message: The fair use rationale on the book cover is only relevant to use in an article about the book. This needs to be replaced with a different image. LARA♥LOVE 19:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming this is corrrect (and I have no reason to doubt it), then there is no fair-use image of Auden at an age older than 15, so I've commented out the image of the book cover. The Van Vechten photo of Auden and isherwood in the Library of Congress collection is availalbe under fair use, but a photo of Auden and Isherwood together is a misleading and distorting image to illustrate an encyclopedia entry about Auden himself; and the Van Vechten estate asks that his photos not be cropped. So unless something else turns up, the best solution seems to be to do without any photo at all. Macspaunday 19:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On second thought, since essentially the same use of a bookcover to illustrate other twentieth-century authors seem to be widespread at the moment, I've restored the picture until a better one comes along. Will continue to work on this. Macspaunday 16:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair Use image

message: :Image:DanceOfDeathProgramme.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Full rationale has now been provided; this material is absolutely and unequivocally accepted as fair use in WP, as described in the link in the rationale itself. Macspaunday 13:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:DanceOfDeathProgramme.jpg

message: Reassessed as Top importance, per Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Release Version Criteria - subject is a must-have for a good encyclopedia. Xn4 21:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance

message: Why W. H. Auden and not Wystan Hugh Auden?--158.110.140.221 12:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the name he invariably used for publication; compare the pages for T. S. Eliot, H. G. Wells and E. M. Forster, for example (or A. R. Ammons or R. K. Narayan, and many others). William Butler Yeats sometimes published under his full name, but his entry should probably be titled W. B. Yeats anyway. Macspaunday 12:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Title of the article