Talk:Judy Garland/Archive 1

message: Historically, Garland had been labelled a "gay icon" by thebaby boomer generation. Nevertheless, her fanbase is as diverse as any other celebrity today. New, younger generations do not label people so drastically but accept that people of all walks of life can have a similar interest in a star. It is important to included that she was a favorite among gay men in the past but has become more accepted by all walks of life today!
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Some mention of Judy Garland's gay icon status is probably warranted.  --Robert Merkel
: True; but what's here now seems a bit overdone. Revising a little. MisfitToys
MisfitToys, nicely done edits. --SeanO 02:18, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)
: Thanks! MisfitToys
Sort of strange to call the link between her funeral and the stonewall riots "coincidental" isn't it?  I thought this was pretty well established, even down to details like the shotglass.  http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_326/howarumholelegalized.html  and  http://www.ricksguide.com/judy-garland-the-gay-connection.html
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Do we need to list Judy Garland impersonators? This one seems like an instance of advertising.
(Later) I checked this user's 'contributions' and it appears that the user is adding advertising links to a small business web page. Therefore I removed the Impersonator part. -- SeanO 13:00, Mar 10, 2004 (UTC)
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According to below i feel pretty unsure
if Judy really appeared in Irma la Douce.
And i could not find a hint elsewhere right now.
--212.144.145.212 02:25, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Old talk

message: In the article, it's mentioned without source that Garland and Rooney were given drugs by the studio. Although this isn't a secret per se, I do feel that as it's worded now, it needs to have a source cited. If anyone has easy access to a reputable Garland biography, it should be an easy matter to add a reference on this point. 23skidoo 06:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have flagged the section as being in need of referencing, and flagged a few of the most glaring examples within that section. IANAL, but unreferenced statements such as those made in the 'addiction' subsection could be construed as slander.  If someone can point to specific allegations (and they will need to be labelled as such), they will need to be inserted ASAP.  There are tons of unverified claims in this article (except for the gay icon section), but these kinds of claims are (IMO) the ones most desperately in need of back-up.  This is not a GA level piece, comprehensive though it is. Matt Deres 14:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drug use - needs a citation

message: I'd like to address the anonymous person who keeps changing the place of Judy's death from "on the toilet" to "on a closed-lid toilet."  This is not an open and shut case.  There was only one witness to the tragic discovering of the deceased Judy.  That was Mickey Deans, her husband, who found her.
According to him, Judy was "sitting on the loo."  And that was that.
It is astonishing that you would bother to state the condition of the toilet seat, as if this were pertinent or defending Judy's honor.  It's funny in
a sick way that you would keep inserting the words "closed-lid" but still, it must be excised.  Better yet, don't do things anonymously -Professor Von Pie
I've got to say this-- whatever dolt keeps inserting the words "closed-lid"
in front of the word "toilet," kindly knock off your vandalism.  Yes, Judy
died on the toilet, and this is valuable information since it demonstrates
that she did not commit suicide.  The only person who knew whether the toilet
was open or closed was the person who found her, Mickey Deans, and- pun
intended- this is an open and shut case.  Deans never told publicly.  And it is irrelevent, and it looks idiotic-- the thought that having the toilet lid closed is somehow defending Judy's honor.  Please folks, if and when "closed-lid" reappears, and it'll be any minute now, kindly remove it.  User:Professor Von Pie
: When did this happen? I don't recall seeing such an addition. 23skidoo 02:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But I haven't seen anyone make a reversion to such a change anytime recently. Can you dig through the history and find a recent example? I've had this article on my watchlist for quite awhile and I haven't noticed it. Incidentally, are you meaning that Deans has never indicated the open or closed? Although I understand your rationale, I think it might be a bit of detail worth noting because in some respects it restores a bit of dignity to her because it means she wasn't using it at the time. It's not a huge deal but I don't really see a problem with it -- as long as the information is in the public record in which case to omit it that's POV. If it's speculation then it doesn't belong here. 23skidoo 02:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree but skidoo reverted me anyway. PMA 00:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since my attention was called to it, I don't believe it's necessary to indicate the state of the toilet. The fact she's in the bathroom is enough. However we seem to be in the midst of a revert war over this. I recommend this article be referred to Requests for comment to get third-party opinion otherwise we'll be doing this till the cows come home. 23skidoo 05:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Closed-lid'

message: Something important that is missing from the "Legacy in Gay Rights" section is why Garland became an icon in that community. I feel a paragraph is necessary to explain why she became such a symbol. I know there are rumors that she was bi- (then again every single Hollywood actor or actress who has ever lived has been rumored to be either bi- or gay ... gets comical after awhile). It's possible the Friends of Dorothy article linked here might explain (-just checked. Nope, it doesn't), but I think it needs more detail in this article. Also, a stronger connection between her death and Stonewall needs to be made, otherwise it should be deleted as no connected is made and the section itself says it may have just been coincidence. 23skidoo 15:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there has been no response or change to this section, I'm moving closer to deleting it. I support the deletion of the "LGBT rights activist" category as well. Will no one explain why she's considered an icon, aside from the fact that transvestites like to impersonate her and a piece of gay culture lingo was coined after a character she played? 23skidoo 23:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know if you are mean-spirited or just simply unaware. The gay fans of Garland have no desire to "hijack" her, nor would they be able to, even if they wanted. Someone's being a gay icon does not imply anything about who can enjoy her singing or not; it simply states the (rather obvious) fact that she has a broad base of fans in the gay community. Not all gay men like Judy Garland, and many probably couldn't care less about her. But to deny her status as the (probably premier) Gay Icon is really absurd. The question raised (and to which I attempted to reply) was, what was it about her that created this? And whether it is "harmful or helpful" really is completely irrelevant. I am frequently heard to aver that all fan-worship is somewhat silly, over and above a genuine recognition and appreciation for the object of the admiration's talents and achievements. 66.108.4.183 20:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not mean spirited and I have no problem with Garland being acknowledged or promoted or identified as a Gay Icon because that is reality - she is a Gay Icon - perhaps the first or Premier Gay Icon (in my opinion her daughter Liza is more of a Gay Icon as is Cher or Madonna) - but Judy may have been the first , I'm not sure maybe tehre were others  but I do think that there is an element that tries to validate themselvbes by portraying her audience as being exclusivly gay e.g the reference to 12,000 of 22,000 that filed past her coffin were gay - its simply rediculous unless it is based on some evidence-    Garland had the right outlook when she expressed that "she sang to people" that is how she should be portrayed - alot of what is written and promoted would have the reader beleive that her audiences were and are  exclusively gay - journalists like that angle as it is perveived as  controversial or interesting or seedy depending on the connotation -  in Gerold Frank's book he writes about Garland ridiculing her Gay fans - perhaps gay men appreciated her more and were more vocal about it but I agree with you that recognition of genuine talent and achievements should be why someone is admired not because they may be troubled. Garland's appeal to Gay Men is a fact but so is her appeal to children and others of all backgrounds and orietations worldwide but it is subjective but I have no problem with it as long as it is accurate and if anyone can add insight or additions that are TRUE and verifiable about any aspect of her career or life that adds to the value of this article - they should add them and I think some of these "insights" should be added and referenced to the piece of work by Richard Dyer that can be an important resources for any researchers doing a piece on Garland as the Icon status is a facet of the wider jewel that is Judy Garland. 86.12.253.32 17:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You cite some excellent and insightful points from your source. Thanks. 66.108.4.183 19:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, so if I understand the above correctly, the article cannot go into the reasons WHY she is a gay icon, because it would be pure POV speculation. So how about a different approach: Can the article give the objective history of her becoming that icon? For example, can someone cite some specific occasions of where a gay individual or organization said something to the effect of "Thank you, Judy, for being our inspiration." Citing one or two such cases would at least satisfy the Wikipedia:Verifiability requirement. --Keeves 04:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The gay question

message: I have read somewhere that she was only 4'11. Has anyone else heard this and if it was true? It could be added to the article.User:12.222.121.79 00:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garland's Height 

message: An anonymous editor keeps adding self-promotion material about a Judy Garland impersonator. I don't want to violate 3RR so maybe someone can take a look at it and perhaps create a section about impersonators without the free ad? 23skidoo 16:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Impersonator section

message: I didn't see any mention of it in the article, but the USPS will honor Judy Garland on a postage stamp this year as part of the "Legends of Hollywood" series. The first day ceremony for this stamp is expected to be on June 10 2006, in New York City with nationwide availability the on June 12 (the following Monday). (expected stamp image) Slambo (Speak) 20:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honored on US postage stamp this year 

message: I moved the following here due to its WP:NPOV violation:
- Nonetheless, the stipulation that all Garland fans are gay has become tirsome and out of date among the new non-baby-boomer generation. She is one of the few stars who has maintained her popularity long after her death due to annual showings of The Wizard of Oz and a renewed interest in the era in which she was popular. New Generations are contiually introduced to Judy Garland and her fanbase has become incredibly diverse. It was once said: "all female singers worth their salt, are compared to her". Garland's style of singing was original and because of this her talent/voice is not dated allowing many of her recordings to be remastered to today's technical standards contributing to her on-going popularity as an artist.  
It was included in the Legacy in Gay Rights section. - Davodd 17:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV moved to talk page 

message: I think it is important to include the detail that Garland resented the fact that many people know her only as Dorothy from "The Wizard of Oz" and it is important to note that she resented that quite a bit. she constantly struggled to remove herself from that label which was placed on her so early in her career although she continued to fail. Much of the world only regards her as having portrayed Dorothy in the film adaptation of Frank Baum's wonderful children's book but in reality she was a very talented actress as an adult more so than as a child. She was a wonderful singer and horribly misunderstood woman who still doesn't get much of the recognition and respect that is due her.
: Whilst I echo your sentiments, I think that the article shows enough information on Garland's personal life/feelings; perhaps just a few lines about this would help? To include something along the lines of your message above (particularly the last sentence) would be considered by some on here to be a POV. Also, you wrote she constantly struggled to remove herself from that label which was placed on her so early in her career although she continued to fail - the part that is bolded doesn't seem quite true. Anyone else? LBM 17:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that the articel is a very good one and reflects  a good overview of her life (I do think the Gay Icon stuff is a bit much - but appreciate that it has interest for some and although I would include some items that are of particualr interest to me, I realise that the article is a general one and provides the opportunity for individual to do their own research into whatever aspect of her life they wish. I also agree that it appears from various material that Garland did feel under-valued as an actress throughout her life and to a degree wanted to get out from the "Dorothy" label - yes she wanted to play more substantial and glamourous roles and when she did do them she did succeed - e.g. The Clock, A Star is Born, Judgement at Nuremburg  and I Could Go on Singing all demonstrated that she was a fine actress but she also turned down roles that also could have demonstrated this  such as The Three Faces of Eve, The Helen Morgan Story  and several others in favour of pursuing her live performances - In the early 60s she was in the same boat as many of her (more glamourous) MGM peers in that in the early 60s these ladies found themselves at a point in their lives when although still young  in their early 40s - they were surplus to requirements in film  and opportunity was greatly reduced - Judy was luckier than most in that her early body of work was so good and her talent endeared her beyond the screen and she could pursue a very successful career as a singer worldwide - but none-the-less she was a woman and from an age in  Hollywood where looks were very important so to a degree she was concerned about aging and forever being linked to a 17 year old girl next door image - but Garland never "failed" she was smart enough to realise that  whilst on a personal level she may have wanted to have progressed beyond that teenage image - she knew it was that image that was her bread and butter and also knew that it would become increasingly difficult to live up to it the older she got. In the  early 60s she was at the height of her career but by the mid-sixties this had changed dramatically, partially due to the emense pressure she was under  - she was facing bankruptcy, her house and belongings were taken away, her earnings were taken by the government for unpaid taxes, she was (probably) in the early stages of menopause which in a perfect life can be stressful, she was  the mother of young children and the bread-winner, she had guilt over her relationship with her mother and was estranged from her extended family,   she was addicted to prescription drugs and the one thing she could bank on to bail her out throughout her life - her voice - was no longer reliable and she had no choice but to keep going - her health was deteriorating no doubt due to increased stress that triggered increased addiction problems -  she couldn't earn money in the USA which forced her to perform in London and Europe - is it any wonder that the lady just wore out at 47? She didn't even have a home to go to anymore. Yes she may have been misunderstood but this misunderstanding was more related to her personal life and behaviour that was the result of the afore mentioned personal issues that were not publicised at the time and (maybe) perhaps she didn't get the recognition that she deserved as an actress while alive - but there isn't a singer alive or dead that has had the accolades that she received while still alive, she is recognised and respected as a monumental musical talent - her work holds up today and her films do attract a new audience with each generation and her recordings are continually remastered and re-issued and I dare say that these probably out sell her 2 living daughters record sales combined. Her life and her work are continually analysed and she has a very valued place in American culture in both film and music.  During her life she demonstrated an engaging wit, a talent for writing and overall a persona that did not seem to realise how good she was - she remained for the most part an ordinary person with an extraordinary talent, she was a musical genius and no doubt worked hard at her craft - but managed to keep it real and natural, which is why she has lasted and will continue to last as long as people can hear. Judy Garland failed at nothing other than taking care of hereself. Sorry to be so long winded. 86.12.253.32 23:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with you on many points there, you weren't long winded at all. I enjoyed reading your comments, but I'm not sure that most of that would fit into a "neutral" article, because (as you said) people come onto to Wikipedia not just to edit/add, but to find research. Perhaps adding at least something along those lines would be a good idea. LBM 23:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  constant struggle for recognition 

message: somebody answer me this
What are you talking about - where does it say she was "gay"? She married men and had affairs with repudiated to be gay e.g Tyrone Power, Vincent Minnelli and Mark Herron (he was having it off with her son-in-law Peter Allen!)  but whilst some biographies of her allude that she may have had a lesbian fling in her early days she was not gay but rather exclusively hetrosexual. An often  overlooked fact in her life is that Vincent Minnelli was old enough to be her father and was in actuality only a year or 2 younger than her mother - why she would have married a "confirmed bachelor" in his 40s  that was clearly effeminate and  wore by all accounts more make-up than she did when she was only in her 20s  and at the height of her career and youthful beauty is at the least amazingly bad taste on her part - no gaydar! How the studio and her mother allowed it is also a bit of a mystery too. Poor Judy, is it any wonder she had no self-esteem going through a marriage like that and having to be sure it all remained undercover to protect the child they shared, but she still continued to make similar mistakes - she was drawn to homosexual / bi-sexual men - Tyrone Power, Vincent Minnelli, Mark Herron and probably Mickey Deans. The real pity is that she didn't have Tyrone Power's baby - it would have been a beautiful child.
: Please sign your comments. I don't believe it has ever been claimed that she was gay (though one needs only look at Rock Hudson's case to see that reports of marriages and alleged love affairs don't always indicate the truth. It has been claimed that she was bisexual, however. Also, one doesn't need to be gay to be considered a "gay icon" in any event. 23skidoo 13:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  how is she gay is she married men? 

message: Yes the studio dressed her in "plain" and "childish" costumes as she was also  publicised at that time to be 2 years younger than what she was - so at 14 they were saying she was 12 etc. this went on until the Wizard of Oz - part of that rationale was due to the fact that she was seen in the early stages of her MGM days as a answer to Shirley Temple who was a few years younger than Judy  -  and there were no female "teen" stars before Judy (she was the first Pop Star). Judy's pre Oz films gradually began to show not only her talent but that she was "pretty" but photographed a bit "chubby" mainly due to the fact that they were trying to dress a budding teen as a "flat chested" 12 year old so she appeared a bit busty - but once OZ came out they realised that they had a "goldmine" because even made-up plain she photographed very pretty. However they were in a dilema because they themseleves had promoted her in the pre-Oz films  as either the "girl next door" or an "Ugly Duckling" that only got the boy after the boy saw through her plain appearance to her "heart of gold". Nellie Kelly was Garland's "transitional" film in that it was a test by the studio to see exactly what her appeal  and potential was, e.g she was allowed to have "girlie" and stylish clothes hats and hairstyles -  the role was perfect for her sterotypical Irish looks and although filmed in Black and White  her naturally auburn hair was lightened to a more definite red colour and the film also demonstrated that she had real acting ability in that she went from comedy to tragedy equally with ease (it was her only death scene on film). The film was well received and helped MGM to find an "image" for her which although was not  glamourous it wasn't the ugly duckling either. Presenting Lily Mars was the film where she got the full "star" treatment and MGM was delighted with the result as - she was in that film clearly beautiful with a luminous complexion, stunning legs and although she was short - she didn't photograph short because of her long legs and short waist she was and could be every bit as much a "glamour" girl as some of the more "beautiful" stars  of the day (it is interesting to examine her look at this time as it was very similar to the young Marilyn Monroe who was never considered anything but beautiful) and the "Lily Mars"  look was kept for  a short period - However MGM also realised that they had enough "glamour" girls and Judy being naturally pretty was a better option for the type of films and roles they had planned for her - someone once said she was pretty enough for men to fall in love with her but not beautiful enough for women to be jealous of her, which was a good marketing ploy for films of the time - Judy Garland's down to earth image - was very marketable and spawned a line of dolls, clothes, jewelry and other items which again, aside from Shirley Temple was unprecidented at the time,  she was more natural and this fitted both her personality and screen persona - she was in as much demand for make-up and other promotional work  as those colleagues that were deemed to be more "beautiful or sexy"  She posed for popular  pin-up photographs for the troops and had a bomber named after her by the Airforce - she was by no means under-appreciated looks wise by the American public. However if she couldn't sing MGM  probably would have kept the "glamourous" look or relegated her to "character" or supporting roles and ultimately let her go because she did not easily match the mold  that so many of her contemporaries were pushed into e.g. Ava Gardner, Maureen O'Hara, Hedy Lamar, Rita Hayworth etc.  but no doubt she (probably) would have had better self esteem if they had not tried to make her into something she was not by telling her that she needed this work in the early days of her career as a pre-teenage girl when looks and self worth are so very important to cultivate. I think she valued her look in Meet Me in St Louis and The Clock  because these were the first films where her starting point was deemed to be good e.g she wasn't being told "we have to make you look better" but rather was being told at the starting point "you are pretty" so these films weren't "experiments" with her look as some of her previous films had been and she could finally get rid of the nose discs that were inserted to give her naturally upturned nose more of a pixie look which she hated using as they were uncomfortable. 86.12.253.32 10:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Garland's Appearance

message: 'singer-songwriter Rufus Wainwright sold out Carnegie Hall with two performances billed as "the entire classic album of Judy Garland's famous 1961 concert." NPR ran a feature story June 10, 2006 including Garland concert excerpts and an interview with Wainwright.' I am not sure if this additional info is of any added value to teh article that's purpose is to establish facts about Judy Garland - Therefore the section should end with the Carnegie Hall album has never been out of print which is a significant fact. Perhaps Wainwright's tribute is more appropriate on Rufus Wainright's own article with a link to Garland's ratehr than the otehr way around or perhaps under a sub heading of "Professional Tributes to Judy Garland" although this would leave every drag artist open to a "self promotion". but am not sure?
Vono 11:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Added Value?

message: Full page with links categories references  not deleted but also not showing?86.12.253.32 14:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page View

message: Judy Garland's voice was unique - it was powerful and had a wide range - although I am not an expert I expect that thsi range in her day was superior to Sinatra's - Sinatra had nothing but admiration for Garland stating that she will be remembered long after enveryone else - or something to that effect and he probably was right - I have no problem with the statmentif it can be cited as fact through a source. garalnd was a unique talent that has influenced many copiers but she herself was original and sang in her own stly which is why her voice is not dated - some of the  musical arrangements may be dated but her voice is as fresh and as unique today as it was  60 years ago.86.12.253.32 21:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are we bothering to compare Garland's voice to anyone's? Any why Sinatra? Why not Elvis? Britney Spears? Tiny Tim? I see no use for such a thing at all. If there was any such discussion in the article, it has been removed already so I support that. If someone can find a website that contains a scholarly comparison between Garland and Sinatra (or whomever) I see no reason why that can't be listed as an external link. 23skidoo 22:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garland's Voice compariosn with Frank Sinatra 

message: I have added informationon on Garland's ancestry. She had a very impressive family background and contrary to the idea that this ancestry only became evident after she was famous is incorrect in that the Gumms were a very established southern family albeit that their wealth was for the most part lost after the civil war they remained influential and were teachers, merchants, soldiers, politicians and clergy. Her mother's family was equally impressive in that it was a very large Irish/Scottish mid-west musical family - Garland's mother was the eldest of 8 children, Garland was raised in close proximity of her 7 aunts and uncles and her 9 Great Uncles and Aunts who were the siblings of Grandma Eva and many cousins from these 2 generations - she was  contrary to belief the "darling" of this large family. She remained very close to her Milne and Fitzpatrick extended family until the death of her Grandmother (Eva Fitzpatrick Milne) who lived with her in California until 1949. Eva was the matriarch of this large family and it is agreed that whilst Garland's powerful voice came from her father, the Gumm's were not performers or particularly musical her personality and performing style and musical range was said to have come from her maternal family with whom she had a close relationship and the rift in the family only occured in 1953 due to the circumstances of Garland's mother's death in 1953 at which time she was estranged from her mother. However it is fair to say that Ethel's death at 60 had not been forseen by Judy or the rest of the family  due partly to the longevity of Eva. 86.12.253.32 18:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestry 

message: I have unlisted this article from the GA list. As detailed in the Drug Use section above, it is my contention that any article with unreferenced and potentially libellous statements cannot be a good article. The allegations that MGM introduced her to drugs needs to referenced and presented as just that - allegations. The Biography section at least gives a TV show citation for some of the assertions, which is a start, but there needs to be proper referencing (preferably of resources available online or on paper) throughout the Addictions section. Matt Deres 02:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The addiction section needs to be rewritten anyway because of all the POV and weasel words. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 10:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Although I agree with your need for improvement and the de-list from GA, It is impossible to libel a dead person. Davodd 20:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Judy isn't the one being libelled, MGM is. I'm not saying it even is libel in the strictest definition, I'm just pointing out that any serious allegations of this kind should be well-referenced or left out. Matt Deres 02:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed from GA list 

message: I've done some research on Factiva and have a number of articles which could be used as references for the addiction section, but I don't have time to rewrite it myself. Let me know if anyone would like to do it and I'll make the articles available. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 10:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addiction references 

message: It is said that the day she died there was a tornado in Kansas.
Added by User:74.134.94.110 
I've found several mentions of this fact, with very similar wording in several places online by using Google.  I can't find any reference to the tornado itself (where, when, strength, etc) separate from Judy Garland's death.  If anyone else can find a source, feel free to add it back (with reference, of course).  Benabik 00:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death Tornado 

message: Over the years there have been many myths and rumours about Garland (as with all famous people) and she herself contributed to these partly for entertainment sake and partly to justify her own actions in some cases. For instance her realtionship with her mother there is evidence that garland's mother was  not the evil witch she has been portrayed as - in fact the rift in Garland's family occured because her many relations including her own sisters disputed this image she put forward - but in any event the section does not add any  value unless the statements are referenced through a source. This type of un-sourced opinion reduces factual content of this article and its chances of being re-categorised as a GA. I beleive that if statement are not sourced they have no value. There has never been a reference to Garland using street drugs in allies in any of the numerous biographies and articles written about her - it is simply rediculous and has no place in the article ( unless it is sourced) . 145.229.156.40 16:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myths & Rumours Sections in Article