Talk:Christianity/Archive 9

message: I was just thinking that for accuracy, it should be mentioned that Anglicanism is not strictly a Protestant denomination in the sense of Lutheranism, for example, because it was not started by reformers over doctrinal issues, but by a king who claimed authority of the Roman Catholic Church in England. The differences of belief with Roman Catholicism came later. I agree Anglicanism/Episcopalianism should be broadly grouped as Protestant, but a word of elaboration would be helpful. Kevinbrowning 22:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 3 divisions

message: I did some archiving (again). I hope I haven't broken up any ongoing conversations. Str1977 20:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 

message: I moved this section over from the article. The user who posted the last bit seems to be right in my book. Str1977 14:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved over opinion section

message: :Their concept of Christian practice is more likely to include acts of personal piety such as prayer, Bible reading, and attempting to live a moral lifestyle.
This sentence from the Practices section may be somewhat objectionable; specifically, the phrase "attempting to lead a moral lifestyle," may be considered inaccurate, in that adherents who have accepted Christ are believed to receive spiritual grace to live in a holy manner. --Dpr 08:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: However no serious Christian would claim that they live a perfect life, so 'attempting' is perfectly appropriate. I guess the wording could be changed to indicate that they do, mainly and to some extent, succeed. DJ Clayworth 22:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed--the problem is not so much the word "attempting", but the overal verbal picture that is painted (as you state). It is likely to be believed by many Christian adherents that this phraseology greatly dumbs-down, distorts, or minimizes the spiritual nature of their practice, transforming it into merely habits, actions, or "another" lifestyle. --Dpr 08:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Practices/lifestyle 

message: I do notice that Christianity in the Roman Empire, The Great Schism, The Medieval West, The Reformation did have information and text with them, but now they have gone? I believe that it's vandalism and I will be keeping an eye on this article from now on. If I see this happen again, I shall call for a lock on the Christianity page.
::Which one was yours? I mean, where can I find the text you put up? (I hope I didn't do it by accident...)
::I think the "history section" needs to be seriously pruned--most of the material in it is too technical and belongs in the "History of Christianity" entry. (I'm speaking of the material after "Enlightenment", not your stuff. Maybe a timeline would be a good way to express Xtian history succinctly...? --Dawud —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.60.55.8 (talk • contribs) .
::I was a little disappointed to read this and find no background information on the social and economic lives of the early Christians. The Jews living in Palestine under poor social and economic conditions were treated abhorrently by the Romans. These conditions from what I have read were highly condusive to the rise of Christianity as a belief that there was a better life if their Roman oppressors could be overthrown. Whilst the Christians believed this would be done by the coming of a messiah, or if you like a revolutionary leader, the Zealots believed it was to be done through physical action/violence, which often led to the deaths of many of them during uprisings against the Romans. Surely this aspect of the day to day lives of those early Christians had a huge bearing on their beliefs and actions and should be worthy of discussion? Or is this a little bit taboo?
:::It is certainly worthy of exploration, but it is worthwhile to note the differences between ancient Palestinian messianism and early Christianity.  That is to say, although many both inside and outside the earliest Christian community were looking for a political messiah (e.g., Acts 1:6: "So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?'"), Jesus himself and the eventual leaders of the early community did not preach sedition or revolt, but repentence and holiness.  While it is tempting to draw parallels with other contemporary messianic movements, one should be careful about going to far down that road.  JHCC  (talk) 17:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Either vandalism or just plain peculiar 

message: I cut the timeline and the history section, as they have their own articles, linked here.  The article is exceedingly lengthy now and needs some trim work.  KHM03 11:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your hard work. I can see you've been working quietly in the background. I took a study break recently, and when I came back, I started trying to contribute to a bigger number of articles. I find it's healthier, as you can get too personally involved when you're only interested in one or two, but it meant that I didn't have so much time for the articles I had been contributing more to. I'll try to have a good look at this article in the next few days. Ann Heneghan (talk) 11:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article length 

message: WP:FA was moved into the Wikipedia namespace on April 4, 2002.  This article was already listed.  At that time, the article looked like this.  I'm pointing this out not as a standard for the current article to strive towards, but with the hope that the contributors here might be inspired to simply continue its improvement as an encyclopedia article.  Jkelly 04:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured Article

message: "
  Christadelphianism
  "Christian" Family Fellowship Ministry
  "Christian" Identity Movement (British Israelism)
  "Christian" Science
  International Church of Christ / Boston
  Eckankar
  Farm, The 
  How to have perfect faith:  The Apostle Eric
  Islam
  Jehovah's Witnesses
  Mormonism 
  New Age Movement
  Oneness Pentecostal
  Raelians, the
  Roman Catholicism
  Shepherd's Chapel
  Seventh Day Adventism
  Swedenborgianism
  Theosophy
  Unification Church, The Moonies
  Unity School of Christianity
  Universalism
  Way International 
  The Weigh Down Diet and founder
  Rastafarianism
Christianity is a religion based upon the teachings and miracles of Jesus. Jesus is the Christ. The word "christ" means anointed one.  Christ is not Jesus' last name.  Jesus is the anointed one from God the Father who came to this world, fulfilled the Old Testament laws and prophecies, died on the cross, and rose from the dead physically. He performed many miracles which were recorded in the Gospels by the eyewitnesses.  He is divine in nature as well as human.  Thus, He has two natures and is worthy of worship and prayer.
Christianity teaches that there is only one God in all existence, that God made the universe, the Earth, and created Adam and Eve. God created man in His image. This does not mean that God has a body of flesh and bones.  Image means the likeness of God's character, rationality, etc.  Because we are made in the image of God, every person is worthy of respect and honor.  Furthermore, this means that we did not evolve through random processes from a single celled organism into rational, emotion beings.
God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden of Eden and gave them the freedom to choose between right and wrong. They chose to sin. Sin is doing that which is contrary to the nature and will of God.  For example, God cannot lie; therefore, lying is sin.  The sin of disobeying God that Adam and Eve committed resulted in them being expelled from the Garden of Eden as well as suffering the effect of death.
As a result of their sin, their children and all of us inherited a sinful nature.  In other words, our offspring are not perfect in nature -- we don't have to teach children to be selfish.  They know it naturally.  That which is sinful cannot produce that which is not sinful.
Christianity teaches that God is a Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not three Gods), that Jesus Christ is second person of the Trinity, that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead physically, that all people are under the righteous judgment of God because all people have sinned against God.  It teaches that Jesus is the only way be saved from the coming judgment of God and that salvation is received by faith in the work of Christ on the cross and not by anything that we can do to please God.
Where all other religions in the world teach that we must do some sort of good in cooperation with God in order to achieve the right to be in God's presence, Christianity is the only religion that teaches salvation by grace.  This means that we are not made right before God by our efforts, sincerity, or works.  Instead, we are made right before God by faith in what Christ did on the cross. 
Christianity further teaches that once a person is "born again" (becomes saved) that the Holy Spirit lives in that person and the person is changed:  "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17).  This means that God actually lives in the person and the Christian then experiences a true and living relationship with God.
Therefore, "What is Christianity?" is best answered by saying that it is a relationship with the true and living God through the person of Jesus Christ by whom we are forgiven of our sins and escape the righteous judgment of God.
The reason there are different denominations within Christianity is because the Bible allows for us to have differences of opinions. Within Christianity there are very few essential doctrines that make someone any Christian. These essential doctrines are, 
Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4). 
Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14). 
Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4). 
The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9). 
There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8) 
God exists as a Trinity of persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (See Trinity) 
Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation) 
As long as a church believes in these essential doctrines, then it is Christian. However, there are many things in the scriptures that have been interpreted in different ways. For example, what day of the week should be worship on, Saturday or Sunday? Should we baptized by sprinkling or baptized by immersion? Do we take communion every Sunday, once a month, or once a year? The answers to these questions do not affect whether or not someone is a Christian or not. It is in these issues, and others like them, that denominations are formed. It does not mean that one denomination contradicts another. It means that though they agree in the essentials, they differ in some nonessentials. This is permitted in Scripture:
"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind," (Rom. 14:1-5).
Sadly, there is another reason for denominational differences and that is the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye to eye. It is an unfortunate truth that denominational differences are due to our shortsightedness and lack of love. But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. There waits for us, in spite of our differences, a great reward in heaven. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences.  Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ."-matt slick
These are the facts. It doesnt matter what your opinion is, or your interpretation is, or what you want to be true, this is empiracly factual, there is no debating this. This article needs clean up to present Christianity in its true form, not what you think Christianity is, or what you've been told, but TRUE Christianity should be the only article in this site.
:Matt Slick, or ANON 24.158.75.178, you have said a mouthful.  I can appreciate your rock solid belief in what you define as a Christian.  However there are a few points you should consider.  This article is not a Christian tract, but rather a WIKI article that is reporting on the Christianity in the world today.  As such, we attempt to provide no judgement about all of the respecive religions.  Much of what you said would be held true by a great majority of us, but no where in the scriptures does Christ say, if you would be a Christian you must believe these things.  So however you might want it to be so, you have an opinion of what is true; guess what everyone else has also?
:Another thing to consider, please do some reading about the early church fathers and early saints.  I find it iimpossible to believe for anyone to study their lives and come to any other point than that they were each true Christians.  By their fruits you shall know them.  As a LDS, I am more than just a little committed to my religion; not because of what others say, but becuase of what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me.  More than anything, I am contented with the words of Jesus, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."  Those are the words of Jesus, one does not argue about them.  Storm Rider 19:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Groups that don't belong under Christianity

message: I don't plan on editing much in this article, but after looking at the difference between KHM03's edits and the previous version, the things I saw taken out are debately important to the Christian religion it would seem.  I can understand why the divergent or off-branch groups were taken out, but things like baptism and the afterlife seem to be important within Christianity as they have a different reasoning and symbolism compared to other religions.  Anyhows, those are my 2 cents.  I agree that the article shouldn't be lengthy but I think a better analysis needs to be done on what is appriopiate and not appriopiate.  I'm also curious as to the details in wiki laid out on the other world religions and whether they are just as long.  --LifeStar 18:23, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't mean to eliminate mention of "divergent" groups, but I didn't think we needed any great explanations here; that can be done on the articles for those groups.  Also, baptism and the afterlife should certainly be linked, but, since they have several articles devoted to them, it's best to mention them and refer readers to those articles.  I don't intend to be authoritarian about these cuts, but hopefully we can add sections after reaching some kind of consensus; the article was becoming a lengthy mess.  KHM03 21:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About the massive re-edit by KHM03

message: Would editors knowledgable about the Judeo-Christian ethic or tradition see my comment here: ?  Thanks, Slrubenstein   |  Talk 01:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  call for help 

message: Here's a related article that may need looked at for balance.  Thanks.  KHM03 01:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ethics in the Bible]] 

message: Please comment: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion#interreligious --Striver 05:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion]]

message: Would whoever has been adding prominent links to "Baha'i Faith" to other religious sites, please stop? For instance, somebody keeps adding "...and most recently, the Baha'i Faith" to the list of Abrahamic religions in the first paragraph of Christianity. First of all, nobody except Baha'is do that. Neither Christians, Jews, nor Muslims as a group have much interest in your relationship with them. Second, it's only half true. Think about it--according to your theology, Muhammad is the "seal" of the Semitic line of prophets, which Abraham started. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are outside this.Dawud 12:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you; this is an article about Christianity, and there's no reason to mention Baha'i (will all due respect).  KHM03 12:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree with Dawud, about the inclusion of the Baha'i Faith mention in this article.  I don't really care.  But I want to clear up a misconception which Dawud is stating in his edit.  Baha'is view Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad among others as messengers from God, and that they are divine.  The term "Seal of the Prophets" designated to Muhammad Baha'is believe refers to the seal of the "cycle of prophecy" and that Muhammad is the last messenger from God who is prophesizing about the time when symbolic heaven will appear on earth.  The Bab and Baha'u'llah, two messengers of God, that the Baha'is  believe in, have started the "cycle of fulfillment."  Baha'u'llah also claims to be a decendent of Abraham.  Thus Dawud is incorrect.  According to Baha'i theology, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are in the Abrahamic religions.  Now I totally agree this has nothing to do with Christianity, and I respect Christian's belief against this theology, as it is to everyone to respect eachother's belief.  I just wanted to clear up a misconception. -- Jeff3000 23:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baha'i self-promotion