Talk:ATA Martial Arts

message: WTTW (this is pointing to an article on a television station) and WTTF don't go to anything realted to Taekwondo.RJFJR 19:45, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
Please remove the word 'oriental' from the page.  It is offensive.  The correct term is "Asian".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.236.102.138 (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirects 

message: How can you copyright a martial arts form?  Exactly what law says I cannot watch someone do an ATA form and then mimic the movement in demonstration for others?  The closest thing I can find is a copyright on choreography, but a (for example) ballet dance is substantially different from a martial arts pattern.  Have they ever brought a successful copyright claim?  Mbac 21:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cannot copyright a martial art form? 

message: This article is directly from the corporate website. Someone needs to clean this.
I will work to improve the article (less add-like) without adding too much copywrited information about the intricacies of ATA.  If you can, please site any parts that sound more like an add that just usefull information.  If you tell what is wrong I might be able to fix it. Thanks.  NatalieOne 20:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This reads like an ad. 

message: I'm an ex-member of the American Taekwondo Association and been with them for ten years (since 1992, quit 2002) earning my first degree black belt in 1996, and 2nd degree with trainee instructor status in 1999.
In response to the previous posting by an "instructor," here's what I think:
Quote: "The ATA white belt form has 2 hand techniques and 2 kicks."  NOT exactly true.  There are five hand techniques to the white belt form: high block, low block, punch, side block, and knifehand.  There are only two kicks: front kick and side kick.
Secondly, there is no true monopoly on uniform and sparring equipment.  While many schools obey this monopoly uniform policy including letting children wear uniforms with the lettering on their back, other schools choose not to pay the monopoly and find more affordable options.  I've visited a few of these ATA tournaments and people use whichever brand, as long as they have headgear, hand, and foot.
Some other thoughts:
I feel that the ATA is just like many other schools to be like a "McDojo" or what I call, a black belt factory.  It's easy in the start, but as the ranks get higher, people (especially parents) spend more money investing in something that I feel has no real use in the real world (like who kicks above the waist and especially the head in a real fight?).
Also, why break boards?  If you want a reference, watch the first season of the Showtime program called "Penn and Teller B.S."  It's just science people!
Lastly... parents, don't bring your children to tournaments around the country to become "World Champion."  They should be in school getting a real education with a real degree that is useful in the REAL world.  Would you really put the words "World Champion" in your job resume?  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Akit (talk • contribs).
:Maybe some people enjoy it? Are you so against participation in other sports? Baseball, football etcetera are no more useful than what they teach. kaiti-sicle 05:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a physical therapist or as a personal training I find that having the ATA and the triple crown I hold to be quite powerful. I would suggest the martial arts to a number of clients, and have. Even when I was establishing the business I had write ups in the paper I made sure that the martial arts was mentioned. In general I have and would tell other absolutely list it on your resume. Why wouldn’t you? I had a rougher time getting the triple crown than writing any stinkin 75 pg thesis paper that got me a degree!!! tojac 17:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My personal take on the ATA 

message: It seems we need more information on these two elements of a student's training.  Perhaps we could bundle this with one-steps?  SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sparring segments, board breaks 

message: I've never heard of such a phenomenon. Anyone care to explain?? Also, at the 2007 Spring Nationals Tournament in Las Vegas, there was a flag on the wall near the other organizations called the "Asian Traditional Taekwondo Union", different from the WTTU. Anyone care to explain that one???  Progdrummer17 13:26, 06 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Three links come up on Google for "Korean Taekwondo Council".  There's Wikipedia, Harman's ATA, and a Yahoo listing that ultimately lists a Karate for Kids school.  No mention from ATA itself, and no good third-party mentions.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 22:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Korean Taekwondo Council? 

message: This is more for personal information, rather than necessarily to put on the page, but my instructors and I would like to know:
1. Is it true that you have to be a certain age to test for 4th degree black belt? And does anyone know if that age is 17, 18, or something different?
2. Is it true that to test for 5th degree, you must be a school owner who tests at least a certain number of students every 8 week testing cycle? If so, does anyone know what that number might be? Also, does that number increase for each subsequent rank (6th, 7th, 8th?)
Thanks for the help.  Progdrummer17 02:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  4th and 5th Degree Testings 

message: Someone keeps deleting the criticisms section outright. Please state what your objection to it is. If It is simply unbalanced, then please make an effort to balance it rather than delete it. There's nothing wrong with having a criticism section per se. Geoffrey Allan Plauche 21:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms Section

message: I re-added links to the Wikipedia articles on McDojo and Bullshido. They are there to enlighten readers on what these terms mean, so that they can decide for themselves if the terms apply to the ATA or not. Personally, I earned a 1st degree Black Belt from the ATA in 1997. I have a few criticisms of it, but overall my experience was positive. I think more people should learn martial arts and ATA schools are on average decent places to do this. You largely get out of them what you put into them effort-wise. The people who earn 1st degree Black Belts in two years are the ones who display talent, dedication, and hard work. Those who don't display these traits take longer or never reach black belt. Some schools may be better, some may be worse. There are many franchises and independent schools much like it in terms of how belts are given out. There's no reason for some martial artists who don't attend this kind of school to be snobbish toward it. Geoffrey Allan Plauche 21:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with you, but McDojo is linked above, thus removed.  Bullshido I consider a bit of a stretch.  I was in the ATA from 1989-1992, and I wouldn't describe it as Bullshido.  Additionally, Bullshido is listed in the first section of McDojo.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 17:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points. I'm in agreement with their removal then. Geoffrey Allan Plauche 03:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fortunately can say I have been with the ATA some 15 years now and it is a good tning. Some things are not perfect, what is. I find it interesting that if you go to any of the other martial arts styles on wiki there is no mention of McDojo or any criticisms. Just and observation! User:Tkdkidick 10:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps more of them should, but the lack isn't grounds for removing the criticism section here. Also, the ATA is not just a martial arts style, it is a franchised organization. The criticisms may not be applicable to all ATA schools, but they may be applicable to varying degrees to a significant number of them. I don't know. What I do know is if you follow those references, you'll find a number of critics. Now, it is a legitimate question to ask whether online forums are a reliable enough source to be used on Wikipedia. Any thoughts on this? Geoffrey Allan Plauche 17:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually ATA is NOT a franchised  business. That's why it is an association, associated through the style of Songahm. I think a lot of the forums are I hate to say "bitch" forums in general. Not necessarily ATA related but just, why charge "X", why have this many belts or classes. That kind of thing. Online forums are just that people stating there beliefs. No data to back their statements up. From what I have heard. Now if you had an accredited report from some where stating some of these issues. OK, however the terms McDojo is inflammatory to any style or business. I had never even heard the term until I found wiki. I have a friend in another style and he has some of the same issues that ATA parents have. Traveling a lot that stuff. It does come down to the kids and he does it for them. They know no difference. tojac 17:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, maybe not strictly franchised like a fast food chain, but correct me if I am wrong: Don't instructors of ATA schools have to be trained and certified or something? There is a central authority that governs instructor training, establishes rules, sells equipment, and so forth. There is standardization by a central authority. That's not simply a bunch of independent schools who all happen to be teaching the same style of martial arts. In any case, that is all beside the point. The question is: do the references cited for the criticisms meet Wikipedia verifiability standards (WP:Verify)? It would appear that online discussion forums do not. Any objections to this assessment? Geoffrey Allan Plauche 19:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct.  ATA instructors must be certified to teach.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 20:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: All right, so the ATA doesn't sell equipment itself; it licenses the right to sell equipment with the ATA name to another company. This is quibbling over relatively minor details. As for standardization, you'll notice I only said the ATA was standardized. I said nothing about ITF or WTF. So I don't see what is funny. Now, if you step back from your knee-jerk reactionary defensive mode for a second, why don't you address the issue about Wikipedia references that I raised in my previous post? In case you haven't noticed (and it seems that somehow you haven't), I think my interpretation is favorable to your complaints. To repeat: Anybody have any objections to my interpretion of WP:Verify in relation to the quality of the references provided for the criticisms section? Geoffrey Allan Plauche 23:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure what to say? I did not and do not feel like it was any type of reaction, just stating what I thought to be the facts. So to the point, I am not sure what you mean by " my interpretation of WP:Verify", I just do not understand what you are trying to say. I am a layman's term kind of guy.  tojac 21:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nearly everything I write, your first and primary reaction has been to take issue with it and nitpick the details while ignoring my main point. If you haven't followed the link yet and read it, perhaps you should try that. Wikipedia has various rules and principles for adding and removing content; the one I linked to is one of them. The question I asked you and anyone else interested in editing this article is this: do the discussion forums used as sources for much of the criticisms section meet Wikipedia's quality standards? If they don't, then it is the burden of whoever wants to keep the criticisms section to find better sources, perhaps official statements by prominent martial artists or items published in newspapers, etc. By the way, to sign your name with a date stamp just type four ~ in a row after your post. Wikipedia will fill it in for you. Geoffrey Allan Plauche 02:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: “your first and primary reaction has been to take issue with it” don’t you take issue with the things you love. Any who, your point is now clear. I will think about it the fact does it or does it not meet Wiki standards. I wont jump the gun at the moment. I will calmly ponder the thought! tojac 21:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but don't let it blind you to everything else! :o) I think eliminated the section on WP:Verify grounds is preferable to simply trying to delete it over and over again until the critics get tired of reverting it. If it can be removed on such grounds, the burden of proof is shifted to the critics who want to put it back in. They'll have to find higher quality sources. And if they do, you or someone else can work on balancing the section out. Geoffrey Allan Plauche 04:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: See Also Section

message: I was going to add a section similar to this to the belt description section. But I couldn't find a reference other than on individual school descriptions.
==== Tiger Cubs, Bear Cubs ====
Some schools separate very young students out from the Tiny Tigers with a separate program that emphasizes gross motor skills and character development. Often these schools use colored stripes on a white belt to denote progression in skills development. The colors of the stripes match the progression through the normal colored belt sequence: orange stripe, yellow stripe, camouflage stripe, etc. When a child is old enough, they will usually move into the regular Tiny Tiger program as an orange belt.
Tonyhansen (talk) 15:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  tiger/bear cubs 

message: Some schools separate very young students out from the Tiny Tigers with a separate program that emphasizes gross motor skills and character development. Often these schools use colored stripes on a white belt to denote progression in skills development. The colors of the stripes match the progression through the normal colored belt sequence: orange stripe, yellow stripe, camouflage stripe, etc. When a child is old enough, they will usually move into the regular Tiny Tiger program as an orange belt.
Tonyhansen (talk) 15:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiger Cubs, Bear Cubs 

message: It says in ATAOnline's page that Grand Master Soon Ho Lee's "inauguration to the esteemed position of Grand Master of Songahm Taekwondo" took place in June 2002, at ATA's World Championships. Yet, in the article, it says that he's been in that position since 2000, when Haeng Ung Lee died. Which of the dates is correct, or are both correct? Jitieicreiz (talk) 10:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grand Master Soon Ho Lee Inauguration Date 

message: It would be informative to include a section about ATA fees, excluding specific costs. For beginning students these include:
- noncancelleable 3-year contract
- required annual ATA membership fee
- testing fees (including 1/2 belt and mid-term fees)
- required sparring gear
- required weapons
- required uniforms (White-Yellow: plain; Orange-Blue: silk-screened; Brown-Recommended Red: embroidered; Black: heavy-weight)
Embroidered black belts (with student's naem and rank) require another 6-month contract period
Unfortunately, I cannot find any information about ATA fees online, nor have I ever seen these requirements in writing. They are not included in the contract terms. They are simply a result of my own experience. Therefore, I cannot add this information to the main page, as it would be considered unverifiable.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seekchat (talk • contribs) 04:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ATA Fees 

message: I have noticed that this page has been being "vandalized" by individuals who are critical of the ATA system. I have removed the recent “McDojo” comments. There are valid ways for such topics to be included, after discussion on the talk page. This, however was not done.
The labels “McDojo” and “Belt Factory” are typically applied to poorly-run martial arts schools in ALL disciplines. These schools are run only to make a profit and do little or no valuable teaching. This label does not apply to the vast majority of ATA schools, and certainly no more so than in any other discipline of martial arts.
:I was in the ATA from 1989-1992, and have a favorable opinion of the organization from that time.  However, the term "McDojo" is currently under discussion (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/McDojo (2nd nomination)), and so the result of that discussion will have a ripple effect on the use of the term throughout Wikipedia.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: i edited the article to reflect upon Richard Reeds newly attained Grand Mastership, but i don't have much information on it
2602:306:374A:2C50:592F:6AD5:AAEC:C37C (talk) 04:45, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grand Master Richard Reed  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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