Talk:The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

message: I'm just wondering (in the nicest possible way) why this page exists, when the same material is covered in Stephen_R._Donaldson. Surely the wiki does not need both? Nevilley
I think so. It allows more space for the world of TC, and allows direct redirects. (I actually came here, because I needed a link to a SF book where Giants are friendly, for the Mythology Giants page) - Marco V
Btw, TC did have leprosy in the other wolrd, but it was cured by the "woundclay" (I read a translation, don't know the original english world). Soon after he realised he was cured, he raped Lena.
:"hurtloam" in English.  But woundclay was close enough.--Barry 18:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to start working on doing a little expanding.  Major characters, races, etc., but I'm waiting until I finish rereading the 1st and 2nd Chronicles.--Barry 18:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
fwiw - I think this material belongs here too. Wiki is becoming a store of anything/everything.  What a nice "re-living" of these books for me, 20 years removed from when I read them, some of whose scenes still stand out in my mind today (e.g., "Nom").  I might someday have though of doing a general net search on them and may have found the "official" pages; but while on Wiki I am much more inclined to mine past read books, visited places, etc.
Dude! Don't entionmay the andgorgonsay!
To whomsoever posted the pig-latin...HAH! I #@%&$!* love it! (...sorry to edit and not contribute, but hey, I gotta give props!...)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.50.52.85 (talk) 04:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplication?

message: I'd do this myself, but haven't read the book so can't be certain of the accuracy of the article. JulesH 19:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: there is now an article for the novel The Runes of the Earth into which this should more properly be merged. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Merge per Kevinalewis. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 23:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to merge [[Caesure]]

message: As you might be able to guess, I'm a fan of the Chronicles. These articles seem like they could use better formatting and arrangement, and I'm willing to help. I'd prefer to avoid treading on any toes, despite the "be bold" admonishment.  
My ideal would be an article for every Covenant book, but that might not be justified given Donaldson's small following. I'd settle for a detailed seperate article on each "Chronicles" set (first, second, and last). Naturally, the information could then be removed from the article on Mr. Donaldson himself, and replaced with a link to the proper articles.
Are there any comments, or objections to my going ahead with this idea?  -Kasreyn 08:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection at all, quite the reverse. This is work that needs doing, Please can I vote for an article per book (i.e. 7 so far), with "Maybe" one for each triolgy as well but this is a secondary thing. I'm quite willing to help with this process if it is agreeable. One more thing could the articles please be structured using the :Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate pattern of the writing of such articles. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 09:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Done it - moved the 2nd chronicle book synopses into separate pages and changed this page to have links. I don't know enough about 'Gilden-Fire' to know if that should be done as well --Mortice 18:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal for work on SRD's Covenant and related articles

message: Should something be added about the words of power?  (You know, "Melenkurion abatha!  Duroc minas mil khabaal!")
:Hmm, possibly, but really almost nothing is known about them but their names.  We don't really know what effect they have, aside from possibly boosting spells or banishing/binding/exorcising Ravers - and even these are pure speculation which Donaldson refuses to answer.  As far as I can tell, their purpose is merely to add strangeness and a feeling of fantastic history to the Land, plus they just sound cool.  I'd find it hard justifying their inclusion, since they're completely incidental and have nothing to do with the plot.  -Kasreyn 11:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I agree - they could be given a passing mantion in a larger article, nothing more. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 14:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Words of Power?

message: Is anyone familiar enough with the Elohim (they are mentioned under giants, and are featured in the second chronicles linden avery series) to write a race article for them? They are missing. I would then be able to post a link to the Chronicles on the Elohim article, as I do believe they deserve mention. Consider that one was quite essential to reforming the staff of law. Tyciol 17:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Elohim

message: We should include the important locations, with a description of them and perhaps their role in the story. Though I imagine that pages will be setup with a synopsis for each of the books, I feel that seperate pages for the various location will flesh out more of the background of each book. Currently I can see adding pages for:
Revelstone
Mount Thunder/Kiril Threndor
Trothguard/Revelwood
Landsdrop
Mithil Stonedown
Coercri
Foul's Creche
Kevin's Watch
Grimmerdhore/Morrinmoss/Garroting Deep
Andelain
etc etc
Granted there is no reason to nickle and dime it with every place mentioned in the Chronicles, but some of the important ones should have more detailed info. Coradon
I am currently trawling through the Covenant works in particular as time allows trying to edit The Land (fiction) Help is welcome. Feel free to leave notes and ideas on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Loyola/Covenant/ Loyola 11:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List and description of locations important to the story 

message: Why does the article call the Demondim semi-corporeal and link them with undead? Does this come from the 2004 book? Did I miss some other reference? Dan 23:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I understand it, the Demondim were spirits who could possess people and creatures and even the dead. Coradon 15:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, it is new information revealed in Runes of the Earth. I asked the same question myself when this appeared here in this article, and I have verified it in the book. However, that is about all we know, relayed third-hand by a character in the book, not directly experienced any characters. The details may change as the last series unfolds.  Maybe we should put a "Current Events" tag here! *grin* --Carboncopy 17:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is said in the book. Yet one must remember how "truth" was corrupted between Trilogy 1 and Trilogy 2. What is said of the Demondim may be the same situation. Loyola 07:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: He mentions the Demondim at some point in that "Gradual Interview" thingy on his website.  --Starwed 12:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the Demondim always were somewhat undead. The Viles could possess anything but they hated themselves and created the demondim. The Demondim were created using the dead and that gave them physical form. As well as i know they could raise the dead to fight along side of them. -Cerin616  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.15.19 (talk) 01:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Demondim

message: Was there any information released concerning what the 3rd,4th,5th and 6th wards were, and where they were located? Thats been one of my main questions I've had over the last 20 years. Has anyone ever done some fan fiction concerning them? Coradon 15:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about fan fiction, but SRD has not given any more details on the other wards, either in his books or in interviews. He hints that they may become a factor in the Last Chronicles, but he is very circumspect on the subject. See the Gradual Interview at his website. -- Carboncopy 17:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In The Wounded Land, when the Aumbrie of the Clave is breached, Covenant sees a great many items formerly used in the magic of the Council of Lords, which the Clave has cached away. Among the items are three caskets, which Covenant recognizes as the repositories of the Wards from the discovery of the Second Ward in Mount Thunder in Lord Foul's Bane. Later, during the soothtell, he perceives that sometime after the defeat of Lord Foul, the Council discovered the Third Ward, but, in line with Mhoram's decision to abandon Kevin's Lore as inherently destructive and inconsistent with the philosophy of peace, the search for the other wards was abandoned. Ellsworth 18:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: he didn't even bother bringing the wards up in the final chronicles; the only nods to any kind of lore are that he (1) drags in one more absurdly-powerful-yet-with-a-profound-weakness 'race' {the Insequent), (2) has Linden seek deeper understanding from Caerroil Wildwood (twice), (3) has Jeremiah realize suru-pa-maerl and anundivian yajna out of nowhere, and (4) has Linden learn the missing seventh Word of Power.  okay, the nifty (5) is that we actually get to 'see' something the Viles left behind (other than the ur-viles and waynhim)... Dunno about fanfic; i barely have time to read the "professional" stuff in the first place!  71.212.81.117 (talk) 20:14, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 7 Wards. 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:StephenDonaldson TheRunesOfTheEarth.jpg

message: Isn't the cover shown for "Runes of the Earth" just the draft-stage book cover?  As far as I know, that one was never used for the actual release - can anyone confirm? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Runes of the Earth 

message: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2004-12/17/10.00.film  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.69.109.3 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No movie is forthcoming at this time. The official Stephen R Donaldson website says that a group was interested in producing a film, but they were unable to get funded. As of January 2007, they have stopped trying .  Carboncopy 19:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Im not sure how i feel about a movie... I just think that if a movie is made it will never be as powerful as the books... but at the same time i would like to see a movie.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.15.19 (talk) 01:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i seriously doubt a faithful movie could (a) be pulled off at all, (b) find a sizable/sympathetic audience.  it would pretty much have to be an innovative 'labor of love' or a very tepid, dumbed-down or otherwise barely recognizable adaptation.  moral ambiguity and emotional agonizing are horrendously difficult to convey, even in three-hour doses of otherwise-engaging screen fiction.  it's the kind of story arc and character development that practically beg for audible telepathy or narration or some other kind of hamfisted exposition. 71.212.81.117 (talk) 02:12, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible Movie?

message: This page does not have a list of major characters. The "Peoples and Creatures" section is not that specific (at least, it has not been to this point). I recently removed a Berek paragraph on these grounds, but it was a nice summary of him, so I place it here for safekeeping should such a section be deemed necessary here on the main series page.
 "Berek Halfhand Also known as: Lordfatherer, Earthfriend, Giantfriend, Heartthew. He He created the Lords system to rule the Land and was the original High Lord. Like Thomas Covenant, Berek was missing several fingers on one hand, though his were lost in battle.  He was the first human to become sensitive to the earthpower in the Land. He used it to defeat the corrupt kingdom that was destroying the forests of the Land. During that war, he called forth the Fire Lions (beasts of earthpower resembling lava) from Mount Thunder (as did Covenant). He created the Staff of Law from the One Tree."  Carboncopy 19:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Characters

message: "Many elements of the story correspond to those of Richard Wagner's epic "Ring Cycle", but with inverted values." Which elements are these? Which values? Apart from the ring and perhaps the breaking of Wotan's spear I can't think of any. Cavort (talk) 13:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wagner

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:StephenDonaldson FatalRevenant.jpg

message: The Stonedownors always reminded me a bit of Dwarves, and I considered the Woodhelvennin to be similar to Elves.
Okay, there are many differences - possibly the most basic of which is that Dwarves and Elves are races different from Men, whereas Stonedownors and Woodhelvennin are Men with special inclination and powers.
But nevertheless, I was surprised that this question was not yet raised on this page. Am I the only one who's thinking in this direction?
(Btw: I have definitely never read a more fascinating description of "special stone powers" than in TCTC 1!) Schellhammer (talk) 12:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think its a matter of the question never coming up before, but rather a point of Wikipedia not being the place for forum-style discussions. Not to sound harsh (bc I am not trying to be at all), but we would need a citation from a reputable, reliable and verifiable source that suggests the opposite numbers paralleling traditional high fantasy races with those presented in the TC novels. Without it, any such talk is speculation, and we have no truck with that here in the wiki-en. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, good point. :-) Schellhammer (talk) 14:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dwarves and Elves? 

message: Should a paragraph on the name "Thomas Covenant" be added to the article (or another page, like the article on the people of the land)?
I think the selection of "Thomas" as a first name is no coincidence but is linked to Doubting Thomas. Any suggestions on the surname? Schellhammer (talk) 13:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, because that isn't what we do here; you'd be better off directing that sort of inquiry to a fan forum or whatnot. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 02:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the name? 

message: Gee, for a series which has NO SOURCED POSITIVE REVIEWS, the details of the series are quite thoroughly covered. i added a link to a book which did give the book credit. I think the idea on WP is to report on the coverage of a subject, not create fan pages. Did Locus, interzone, NYT, anyone, write so extensively about the plot, themes, characters? most of this is unsourced. (sorry for the shouting, just gets to me sometimes).Mercurywoodrose (talk) 08:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism

message: A related article has been deleted because it did not cite sources, but the contents were preserved at User:The Land/The Land (fiction).  Some of that information could be used to improve this article, if properly referenced. Goustien (talk) 19:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future improvements 

message: There is a seperate wikipedia article for "high" fantasy and having read the books listed in this article, I disagree with that characterization for a big number of authors/stories. Thomas Covenant enters a different world only when his physical body experiences severe trauma - the same can be said of katherine kerr's deverry characters - which are also on wikipedia as high-fantasy even though they don't satisfy that definition. tracing the backlinks doesn't provide a good reason to categorize either in either direction, so what's up? I really loved raymond feist's magician duology too but it was never by any means characterized as "high fantasy" when pug or tomas entered the tsuranuanni. someone is trying to pull a fast one here. at least three articles do not belong under the same category as the lord of the rings and the chronicles of narnia.75.134.26.34 (talk) 06:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Would that be the chronicles of narnia in which 'real-world' fictional people end up in 'other-world' circumstances--regardless of the degree of ambiguity of the other world's "realness", mind you--without "experiencing severe trauma" to do so, as though that were a definitive discrepancy; or should The Horse and His Boy perhaps be classified separately because it involves nobody from 'the real world'?  (hint: no.) 71.212.81.117 (talk) 02:40, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

text: A fantasy novel can be both a portal fantasy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy#By_the_function_of_the_fantastic_in_the_narrative and a high fantasy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy at the same time.  In a portal fantasy, a character is transported from the "real" world to a fantasy world, as in Narnia, the Wizard of Oz books, the Thomas Covenant series, and many many others.  A common motif in a high fantasy is the hero has to fight a Big Bad with the fate of the fantasy world at stake, such as Sauron, the White Witch, the Wicked Witch of the East, and Lord Foul.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.142.138.58 (talk) 13:42, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What makes this "high fantasy?" 

message: It would be enormously helpful if this article had some basic introductory material - a somewhat detailed plot synopsis of the entire series, perhaps a brief section about the writing and publication, etc? For someone who doesn't know anything about this series, this article offers almost no help, and the material the article does choose to cover is very poorly organized. 12.216.211.2 (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synopsis? Basic details? 

message: I've several criticisms for this. One MAJOR criticism is that it barely mentions Covenant's leprosy. This is a MAJOR motivation for his internal conflicts and ignoring it is unsupportable - risible actually. I think it also should be noted that while the date in the "real world" isn't clear, by the time Lord Foul's Bane was published in 1977, leprosy was, contrary to the narrative,  curable. I think that should be mentioned, if for no other reason than the myth that it isn't still lingers. Second, I am going to change the (single!) mention of the rape, which claims the victim was a "young woman" to "a 15 year old girl". Clearly, the fact that it was not only an act of violent rape, but was of a (virgin) child is significant (in our cultural context). Third, the incessant questioning by Covenant of the "dream status" of his experiences in the Land is ridiculous. No dreams have logical continuity (over hours and days, weeks and months) in my experience, how about yours? He is clearly consciously experiencing a "reality" rather than a dream state in which the physics is amorphous. Fourth, the Land is NOT a "world". It is a region of what the characters call the "Earth". Fifth, the similarities between Donaldson's Land and Middle Earth approach plagiarism. Compare the Ramen with the Rohan, or the tentacled "lurker" in the swamp with the one in the pond/lake before the gates of Moria, the tree cities, and numerous other implausible "coincidences".71.30.36.178 (talk) 04:37, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Criticisms 

message: In several places there are calls for "sources".  Aren't the sources for creatures and events in fiction novels, the novels themselves?
Since, for example, Donaldson invented "Cavewights" as creatures in these novels, and such creatures exist nowhere outside of these novels, what other "source" would you cite for the definition of what they are, than the novels themselves?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 00:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Types of mythological or fantastic beings in contemporary fiction is a page of, well, fantasy series (movie, TV, written, whatever) and the assorted mythological and/or fantastic critters they contain.  This series would probably qualify.  Anyone care to add it? Tamtrible (talk) 09:35, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahaa, interesting...ok I will give it a go. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:16, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone familiar with this series care to add it to this list? 

message: I have removed both 'Arc of the Plot' and 'Symbolism and Motifs'. I get that these are pretty nifty topics to muse on, and the sections read like someone's high school lit project. That said, this is all uncited, and we cannot use the supposition of an editor making rather extraordinary claims without referenced support. We do not create; we collate. And paraphrase. The info must stay our until it is supported by numerous sources (to avoid giving undue weight to a single reference). Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:25, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed sections 

message: The citation of this WA Senior volume seems dubious at best. Even with extensive searching, I could find little information on Senior outside of this volume and a single other journal published article.
Furthermore, reading the synopsis of the book from Kent State University Press, quotes such "as an extensive introduction to the fantasy genre in which W.A. Senior eloquently defends fantasy against charges of being mere escapism, or simply juvenile, and not warranting serious critical considerations," and "Donaldson has cerated an important contribution to the canon because of his serious intent and adult concerns, his powerful mythopoesis, and his manipulation of the conventions of epic fantasy," (Typo original to the synopsis), would suggest that the author was a Donaldson fan with a chip on his shoulder. The addition of "two illuminating interviews with Donaldson" in the appendix backs up this claim.
Remove it, nothing but in-group puffery.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.232.147 (talk) 18:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worthwhile Critical Source? 

message: IDK how this might fit in, but the unsympathetic character thing is also true of Donaldon's other series, the Gap books. I don't recall a single character in them that was very likeable. 70.77.20.244 (talk) 01:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critical response...