Talk:James Horner

message: why is there not an image for him? does none exist? a quick search of google finds this: http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss209/fishmanlee_2009/JamesHorner.jpg
__TOC__
:You can't just pull an image off the internet. Copyright, my good fellow. JonBroxton (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: James Horner is the Invisible Man?

message: ===James Horner article===
The James Horner article (about the film composer) seems to have been removed, history and all.  Moreover, its talk page not only has an obscenity on it, but has been protected, though it is not on the list of protected pages.  I don't see any discussion of this in the usual places (unless there's a usual place I'm just unaware of).  What's going on here? -mhr 18:58, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk page is not actually protected, it just had the protected msg. As for the article, it may never have existed. --No-One Jones 19:03, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure the article existed.  I've read it before (which is why the change to the talk page was showing up in my Watchlist today), and there was even a debate on the talk page about including some content from an external Web site (possibly here, but I'm not certain), which the author of said site wanted to include.  It's a bit disturbing that it seems to have up-and-vanished... -mhr 20:52, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It did indeed exist.  Snoyes deleted it in December as it was apparently a copyvio. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 23:38, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll write up a new page. Taco 02:44, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: From ViP

message: The James Horner article (about the film composer) seems to have been removed, history and all.  Moreover, its talk page not only has an obscenity on it, but has been protected, though it is not on the list of protected pages.  I don't see any discussion of this in the usual places (unless there's a usual place I'm just unaware of).  What's going on here? -mhr 18:58, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk page is not actually protected, it just had the protected msg. As for the article, it may never have existed. --No-One Jones 19:03, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure the article existed.  I've read it before (which is why the change to the talk page was showing up in my Watchlist today), and there was even a debate on the talk page about including some content from an external Web site (possibly here, but I'm not certain), which the author of said site wanted to include.  It's a bit disturbing that it seems to have up-and-vanished... -mhr 20:52, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It did indeed exist.  Snoyes deleted it in December as it was apparently a copyvio. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 23:38, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll write up a new page. Taco 02:44, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[James Horner]] article

message: The soundtracks are neither alphabetized nor in date order. What gives? MPS 20:43, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No particular order

message: Some needs to note that he has frequently been accused of plagerrizing his scores. This is pretty important.
:He's not "plagerrizing". It's called quoting and is done by _all_ composers.
::P-L-A-G-I-A-R-I-Z-E & P-L-A-G-I-A-R-I-S-M.  And I don't think anybody's accusing him of plagiarism, just monotonous non-variation.
:::Whether he does plagiarize/recycle is debatable, but I think the fact that there is a debate (and a pretty big one, at that, from what I've seen) is probably worthy of mention. Do people agree? Any sources (forum discussions, reviews, etc.) which could be used to back this up? Nyvhek 17:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A quick Google search did turn up this interesting discussion on film scoring.  http://korngold-society.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=148&sid=cf1e83061572750554b8a199362d6a00
I would disagree that ALL composers 'quote' other composers. Yes all composers are influenced by what they hear and particularly by music that inspires them, but to say that ALL COMPOSERS 'quote' is a gross exaggeration. So what does one make of the Adagio from "Gayane" by Armenian composer Aram Khachaturian, used in the deep space sequence of '2001: A Space Odyssey'.......compared to the deep space string music from Aliens......even if one excuses Horner by calling in mere 'quoting' It is much more than that.........it is almost exact for whole sections, multiple phrases.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.75.153 (talk) 14:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Plagerism

message: You should add Horner's works with Mel Gibson and Joe Johnston, among others.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.76.103.97 (talk) 05:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colaborations 

message: Where can proof of Horner's middle name be found? There is no definitive proof provided that his middle name is "Roy". iMDB is NOT proof, especially considering the biographies on that site can be written by "Anonymous" authors.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nl197 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: His full name is listed in the California Birth Index - , which of course comes from the State of California's  records. I'm putting that back now. - DoubleCross (talk) 22:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle name 

message: I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles.  This article is B-class, but it has some issues, and some room to grow.  My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 15:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Composer project review

message: Just FYI, I've trimmed the criticism section down to an extremely succinct summary of the issues. I'm not trying to deny or censor anything, but rather to apply WP:BLP with full force to legally delicate BLP material. I'm not even trying to deny the criticism's prominence (I've known about the criticism ever since I took an interest in Horner's music over a decade ago), but instead to request that any editors who wish to elaborate on specific critiques bear the WP:BURDEN of proving the WP:PROMINENCE (not just the verifiability) of any of these critiques. Cosmic Latte (talk) 02:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section 

message: I can see why this section was edited, but now it's just too rushed. There are several sources about these plagiarism issues, and I think it is important to add examples.
--Surten (talk) 06:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critical debate? 

message: Many of the edits - particularly controversial ones - have focused on Horner's alleged tendency to copy motifs from his past works for use in new ones. Just so there are no misconceptions, I am a fan of Horner.
This post will address three fundamental questions:
1. Does Horner actually copy himself?
:Yes, it appears that there is a degree of similarity both stylistically and melodically between some of his works. I have his scores to Avatar, Apollo 13, Titanic, Deep Impact, Apocalypto, and Perfect Storm, and notice particular similarities between Apollo 13 and Perfect storm (Both mid-90s), and Titanic and Avatar. For example, those who know the Avatar score will know the "three chords" that form the core of many of the melodies, found in nine of the tracks, including "Bioluminescence of the Night", "Climbing Iknimaya", and "Pure Spirits of the Forest". These chords appear copied right out of Titanic. Additionally, the final "I see you" track on the Avatar score appears a direct imitation of "My Heart will go on" from Titanic; both are "commercialized" versions of the melodies found in the "real" score.
:So yes, Horner does imitate himself.
2. Is this unique to Horner?
:No. I have over ninety scores from Zimmer's Remote Control Productions, and I see a great deal of stylistic (and occasionally melodic) similarity between those scores. Take my favorite score, that to the Transformers film, written by my favorite composer, Steve Jablonsky. Stylistically, it has been said - and I rather agree - to be extremely "Zimmer-like" in its instrumentation and thematic qualities. Melodically, I noticed - in the process of notating one track - a near-identical similarity between the fanfare at the end of "You're a Soldier Now" and one of the signature melodies from the Pirates of the Caribbean score (written by Klaus Badelt, but also Zimmer-like), though the similarity is disguised by instrumentation differences (Strings in POTC, Brass & Percussion in Transformers).
:I have also seen more overt copying in unrelated composers' work. For example, one of the signature melodies in David Arnold's score to Independence Day is "C-DEC--F--EDE-C--". Seeing an excerpt from a movie (that I have never heard of) called "Stargate", also scored by Arnold, I happened to notice the exact same melody was used at one point.
:So no, Horner is not the only one who copies himself (or others).
3. Is it something to include in the article?
:Only with extreme caution. Content such as this is the very reason the policy of WP:BLP exists. Alleging on a site as prominent and ubiquitous as Wikipedia that a composer often plagiarizes oneself, or worse, others, has the potential to be extremely destructive to their reputation, and may damage their future as a composer.
:Therefore, the content, if discussed, must be discussed briefly, and only with very reliable sources. Ideally, it should also be juxtaposed with a moderation; eg, "Horner has been accused of copying motifs from other works <citation> , but he is not the only one to have done this. <citation>.
-RadicalOne•Contact Me•Chase My Tail 20:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well put. Thank you. What you've said (especially #3) is essentially what I had in mind when trimming down that section last year, and I'm glad to see that the section hasn't been allowed to get out-of-hand again. :-) Cosmic Latte (talk) 10:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There have indeed been users trying to add more, this and this being good examples.  To be fair, there have also been attempts to remove the section entirely. -RadicalOne•Contact Me•Chase My Tail 21:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the issue of self-copying 

message: Does anybody else think this article needs a major overhaul?  I recently dismantled and rewrote the Jerry Goldsmith article into something more sensible and detailed and I think the Horner article is long overdue for the same treatment.  He's far too prolific in the film music community to have such a lackluster article.  If anyone agrees, please share your thoughts.  I would really hate to be the only participant in such a tiring endeavor...  Jg2904 (talk) 18:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This article really needs some information on the plagiarism controversy. Horner actually had to pay a settlement to the estate of Raymond Scott because of his use of Powerhouse (song) in Honey I Shrunk the Kids. The section as it presently stands is far too short.  63.119.10.10 (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhaul 

message: Citation 2 does not lead to the "USA Today Coverage of Horner's Work," but rather to the same article as citation 8. 
I don't know if this is simply the wrong link or if it is mislabeled, but either way I think it warrants attention.184.158.58.29 (talk) 22:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect, or at least mislabeled source. 

message: There are not yet any confirmed reports that he was the pilot killed in the plane crash. will381796 (talk) 01:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Post from family member. Not sure the relation, but Horner is in her profile picture. I'm also seeing the Twitters and Facebooks of many musicians in the industry confirming it was him as well. Rusted AutoParts 02:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is almost certainly him. However, Wikipedia (as an encyclopedia) cannot included the data without a reliable, secondary source per policy. Until then, the living persons policy applies. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 02:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Um ... no. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Please read WP:RS for what a secondary source is (TL;DR: one not published by its subject or its immediate concerns). —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 04:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Nevertheless, this makes me nervous. The Hollywood Reporter, usually a reliable source, uses that facebook post as its source, as opposed to actually speaking to someone ... —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 03:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Agreed. Once Variety wrote that they had confirmed it—despite not initially saying how—my comfort level rose considerably. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 05:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Guardian has reported it - though writing "confirms the Hollywood Reporter", which might be read as slightly hedging their bets.  AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:26, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly—hence 's point re BNS and my slight nervousness even in the face of Variety having "confirmed" it. Variety is pretty much the gold standard wrt entertainment news but, with nothing in the story as to how they confirmed it, I still had a bit of the jitters.  —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 05:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  BBC: , UPI  give me more comfort. --j⚛e deckertalk 05:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh ... not much more, really. BBC doesn't cite any confirmation, while UPI cites Patrycja's facebook and the CBS Los Angeles article that doesn't confirm the pilot's identity—though it does mention that Horner's attorney "was expected to make an official announcement on Tuesday morning." —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 05:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

text: The FAA stated any confirmations of Pilot identity will need to be released by the local officials whos jurisdiction in which the crash happened. At this point, that has not been released by Ventura or Santa Barbara counties. Any mention of him being the pilot that died, whether by family twitter statements or other forms of communication, is not officially confirmed and only speculation. I would imagine the family has not identified a body only hours after the aircraft went down seeing how the FAA and NTSB would have a control system in place to provide a sterile crash scene. Kevintampa5 (talk) 14:31, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Plane crash

message: Harry Horner was born in Holitz, former Austro-Hungaria,
92.60.61.28 (talk) 17:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No source provided. --Laser brain (talk) 17:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, assuming it's true, it would be Austria-Hungary or the Austro-Hungarian Empire, not Austro-Hungaria.  Even though there's a redirect by that name, it doesn't appear to have been a common name, and it was never official. P Aculeius (talk) 17:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2015 

message: Just to throw a couple of pennies in here, I believe this parameter will eventually be appropriate, since the infobox is "facts at a glance". "How did he die?" is a question worth answering for pretty much anyone who did not die of "old age" or "natural causes". That said, "plane crash" is not a death cause; presumably, it will be "blunt force trauma (plane crash)". —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 20:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm actually wondering why his death isn't included in the lede – certainly the circumstances here are notable enough to merit inclusion in the lede? Add-on: I guess we're waiting for official sourcing for that?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably; I hadn't even noticed that it had been removed ... xD —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 00:42, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "death_cause =" in infobox

message: WP:FILMOGRAPHY no longer specifically says to avoid rowspans, and 
 seem to suggest the issue was fixed. That said, the examples in FILMOGRAPHY still show separated entries within same years. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 20:40, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, I generally think 'rowspans' are only appropriate in the 'Year' column for FILMOGRAPHY tables, and shouldn't be used in any other column. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:40, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It mostly was used in the year column; it apparently "exploded" the tables in any sorting other than the default. Supposedly fixed, but apparently still not preferred. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 00:45, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "rowspans" in sortable tables

message: There's been a minor back-and-forth wrt use of    after "conductor" in the lead sentence. I believe it's correct without.
The phrasing, "composer, conductor, and orchestrator of film scores" grammatically separates the first two activities from "of film scores", as if to say he was a composer ... and a conductor ... and an orchestrator of film scores. Clearly, all three apply to the noun subject.  —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 03:45, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: The Oxford comma

message: is insistent on inserting a laundry list of celebrities who have expressed condolences over Horner's presumed death. I removed it first as being unsourced and again as violating WP:MEMORIAL. My stance is that this list, while feel-good and nice, is not relevant or appropriate for an encyclopedia. Rather than remove it a third time, I'm asking for other opinions here. I will respect consensus either way. --Laser brain (talk) 16:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Support removal, it is not notable and not really needed in a biography. MilborneOne (talk) 17:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Not sure, Celine Dion and Russell Crowe seem relevant due to Horner's best-known works and their high profile.  Perhaps the section could be rewritten more concisely without deleting the more notable people.  In any case, it's not what the paragraph under WP:Memorial is about.  That just says that you don't use Wikipedia as a memorial to deceased persons who otherwise don't satisfy notability criteria.  And that's not the case here, since the subject is notable, and so are the people commenting on his death.  P Aculeius (talk) 18:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This happens whenever somebody in the spotlight dies, it would be notable if nobody expressed condolences but this normal practice and not really notable or encyclopedic. MilborneOne (talk) 18:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Such a paragraph does, IMO, speak to the impact the deceased person had, and is appropriate and enyclopedic as long as it's as brief as possible. To that end, I'm going to go trim Dion's quote.  —ATinySliver/ATalkPage  19:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it's germane to speak of people whose careers were firmly linked with Horner's (like James Cameron) but other celebrities should be omitted. --Laser brain (talk) 11:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, but the people who were mentioned all had direct connections.  Horner wrote the music for Celine Dion's most famous song, and the score for one of Russell Crowe's most famous films (and one that was in the news quite recently).  So there was no particular reason for editing them out.  P Aculeius (talk) 12:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:MEMORIAL]] 

message: I've restored to the lead, with proper brevity, Horner's death. Per WP:LEAD#BLP: "When a subject dies, the lead need not be radically reworked. Unless the cause of death is itself a reason for notability, a single sentence describing it is usually sufficient." —ATinySliver/ATalkPage  21:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment, what you've put in there is fine. But I will note that the cause of death in this case is, I believe, somewhat independently notable in its own right. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:07, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Spot-on! That's exactly why I wrote it that way: factual, and without linger.  (Edit: I took "Unless the cause of death is itself a reason for notability" to mean cases where the cause of death is why an article's subject would be notable.) —ATinySliver/ATalkPage  23:13, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Death in lead

message: Is it necessary to say that Horner played piano in the infobox? He is known as a composer and conductor, so the instruments he plays might not be important. LiuserK (talk) 18:04, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed; I'd consider that entirely peripheral. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 22:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox Suggestion 

message: I see Viriditas is listed as a member of WPCA; you are not. May we understand the specific reason you've made ? —ATinySliver/ATalkPage  10:09, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject California rating

message: The NTSB has released their preliminary report, so I think we should incorporate that in the article if it is necessary. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:22, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like a good idea, as long as we're not trying to interpret it. --Laser brain (talk) 12:08, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  NTSB preliminary report 

message: Substituted at 19:26, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Caught007 (talk) 03:12, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. --Laser brain (talk) 03:14, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2016 Death and Legacy Errors. 

message: One of the books on the making of Titanic indicated that after Enya declined to compose music for the film (after James Cameron said he'd used her music as temp tracks), Horner was instructed to compose an Enya-like score. Indeed, the musical score of the film, in particular Heart Does Go On and the Southampton segment that plays during the launch, are very reminiscent of Enya's work (with Norwegian singer Sissel performing Enya-like wordless vocals). If sources can be located I think it's relevant to mention this in the borrowing section. 68.146.233.86 (talk) 03:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I went ahead and made a WP:BOLD edit to remove it. --Ahecht (TALKPAGE) 21:06, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Musical Borrowing section

message: NTSB always investigates thoroughly every air aviation accident. The article mentions that the NTSB conclusion was that The pilot's failure to maintain clearance from terrain during low-level airwork (?), which resulted in an uncontrolled collision with terrain. I am still wondering at the causes of the accident, as modern aircrafts have particularly sophisticated organs, including the altimeter and the low height alarm (with sonar) that lessen the possibility of collision to the ground. Do we have the official NTSB report and if recommendations were announced from this accident (for instance of not commercial aircrafts should have mandatory particular organs to avoid impact with terrain)?2A02:587:D4D:7400:888C:923C:8CC:9EAF (talk) 23:42, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You can read the full NTSB report here. The altimeter doesn't help you if there is a mountain, and most small planes don't have ground proximity warning systems. Even if the aircraft had a GPWS, the report indicates that he was performing acrobatic low-altitude maneuvers, flying through canyons and skimming mountaintops by just 100ft, which means he likely would've had it turned off. There was also some evidence that he had been consuming barbiturates and alcohol prior to flying, which can impair judgement and reaction time. --Ahecht (TALKPAGE) 15:49, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Do we have any clues about his death?

message: We have this in the article:
:(Raymond) Scott's piece was used without payment or credit, leading his estate to threaten legal action against Disney. Disney paid an undisclosed sum in an out-of-court settlement and changed the film's cue sheets to credit Scott.
However, the link was to an old version Raymond Scott estate’s web page, which is now a dead link which, as far as I can tell, was never archived.  I have been able to find a reliable source showing Scott getting credited for his music being in this soundtrack, and I can find a semi-reliable source saying there was a lawsuit threat, but I would like to have something more solid about the lawsuit threat.  An old 1998 issue of The New Yorker supposedly mentions this, but I can not find that online.
I do not doubt the lawsuit threat happened, but I wish we could get more reliable sourcing. Samboy (talk) 11:03, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  I would like to see better sourcing about the Raymond Scott lawsuit threat 

message: Horner also scored Volunteers, directed by Nicholas Meyer. 72.204.158.163 (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volunteers (1984)