Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dinosaurs/Archive 15

message: We recently added a set of dinosaur articles to the DVD selection, as listed here, bringing our total to 17 articles.  We received a late addition proposing the following articles:
* Deinonychus
* Species of Psittacosaurus
* Styracosaurus
* Lambeosaurus
* Hypacrosaurus
* Saurolophus
What we need to know is, how important are these dinosaurs?  Are any of them obscure, such that only a "dinosaur buff" would have heard of them?  Or would these be significant enough to warrant inclusion?  We have room for the articles, as long as they are not obscure.  Please advise.  Thanks, Walkerma 03:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... depends what you mean by "dinosaur buff"... there are really only about five dinosaurs that the average person has heard of: Tyrannosaurus, Velociraptor, Stegosaurus, Triceratops, and "Brontosaurus". Sheep81 03:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two weeks ago, my girlfriend and I were hiking up in the Whetstone Mountains, near where the first fossils of Sonorasaurus were discovered. We saw some old cattle bones on the ground, and I bent down to examine them. I said, purely tongue-in-cheek, "These bones must belong to Velociraptor!" I was stunned when she asked, "What's a Velociraptor?" Firsfron of Ronchester 03:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, knowledge varies - I still meet people who think that as an organic chemist I work on pesticide-free food - but some kids know quite a few more than 5. some that come to mind (remembering from when I was seven, I was an ankylosaurus btw) but unlisted here are plesiosaur, allosaurus, protoceratops (those eggs!) and brachiosaurus.  But if that seven year old is sent scurrying to their dinosaur books, it's probably too obscure IMHO!  Walkerma 04:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Plesiosaur isn't a dinosaur; it's a clade of aquatic reptiles. :) Allosaurus is in terrible shape, and I'd hate to put it on a CD at this point. Protoceratops and Brachiosaurus also need a lot of work. I'm really suprised no one has mentioned Styracosaurus! Firsfron of Ronchester 04:33, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

text: To be honest, out of those ones up there I'd only heard of Deinonychus, Styracosaurus & Saurolophus previously, but Species of Psittacosaurus should definitely be included as it would make a fine addition to the Psittacosaurus article already in the selection. I have to disagree though Sheepy - there are quite a few dinosaurs I'd expect most with a limited knowledge of them to know: Tyrannosaurus, Velociraptor, Stegosaurus, Triceratops, Apatosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Allosaurus, Struthiomimus, Iguanodon, Deinonychus, Brachiosaurus, Protoceratops, Ceratosaurus, Compsognathus & Diplodocus. I might be a bit bias, but those probably should be the big ones that most should know. Alas, as Firs has pointed out, most are in bad shape. Let's just hope Firs' girlfriend doesn't read what he wrote. ;) In any case, lets face it, most of the world's children only know about dinosaurs from what Jurassic Park has taught them, and what a woeful example too! Honestly, would dinosaurs really be as famous if not for those movies? Just because some are not considered "popular" enough shouldn't mean that they are not included in an encyclopedia - not being professionally involved in paleontology, I was unaware of most obscure dinosaurs, but found that some were infinitely more interesting than the more popular ones. Anyway, Spawn Man 06:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's great, Spawn! Your input is just exactly the sort of thing we need here: someone who is interested in dinosaurs, but with "limited knowledge", (like you and I). Someone who is interested in looking up information on dinosaurs should be able to find it, and someone who has only limited knowledge would still know when there wasn't enough to satisfy him/her. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: One could make the argument that the movie wouldn't have been made in the first place had dinosaurs not already been popular... if one were so inclined. Sheep81 12:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Erm... thanks I guess... I wasn't meaning I had limited knowledge though... :( You really know how to hurt me Firs... ;) Spawn Man 06:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Spawny, I just meant "in comparison to the Paleontology-types". Pax? Firsfron of Ronchester 06:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol... I was jk. :) Spawn Man 07:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for the [[Wikipedia:Release Version|Version 0.7 DVD release]] 

message: Gryposaurus has just become a Good Article, thanks to Justin's improvements. As far as I can tell, this marks our 25th community-recognized improved content article (FAs or GAs). We should celebrate somehow. :)
Also: this project was founded on April 22nd, 2004, and since we've achieved 25 G/FAs; at that rate it will take roughly another 119 years to get the rest of the articles up to GA or FA status! ;) Hang in there, guys! We're almost there! Firsfron of Ronchester 14:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now if we can just get those guys to stop naming so many goddamned new dinosaurs for the next 119 years til we get caught up! Sheep81 16:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hee! At the average rate of one new dinosaur genus described each month, that's going to be quite a backlog. Maybe we could convince people that after writing a peer-reviewed paper, they have to write up their own new dinosaur taxa on a Wikipedia article for it to count under new ICZN rules? ;) Firsfron of Ronchester 16:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure they'll understand. Sheep81 16:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, if the stupid scientists would just take a little bit of time off from research and fieldwork, and just all join WP:DINO (what's really important), I'm sure we could finish a lot faster! Then they would be allowed to get back to whatever they were doing before. Sheep81 16:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a great idea, Sheep! Go post that on the DML, ok? Firsfron of Ronchester 17:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess our other option is to scale back a bit. Now hear me out. We go from being WP:DINO to WP:PSITTACO, my new proposed shortcut for Wikipedia:WikiProject Psittacosauridae, a project designed to cover just Psittacosaurus and its closest relatives! We'd just have to get Hongshanosaurus, Species of Hongshanosaurus and Hongshanosaurus in popular culture up to FA status, and then we'd be done! Firsfron of Ronchester 17:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Something smells live frivolity around here! Not good at all... ;) On a serious note, congrats on the new GA. Also, in regard to new Wikiprojects, we could do what the insanely successful Wikiproject Military History has done & create task forces. These aren't really whole Wikiprojects, but rather just little groups within the project devoted to one aspect of it. Could work...? Anyway, Spawn Man 02:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, I'll be the marginocephalian task force, J can be the ornithopod task force, Dinoguy can be the theropod task force... Spawn, Firsfron, and Cas Liber can split up the rest! Hehehe... Sheep81 05:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I call Late Cretaceous basal Genasaurians! ;) Firsfron of Ronchester 05:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ''[[Gryposaurus]]'' and article improvement

message: Well, despite John's concerns, I just went ahead and nominated Daspletosaurus on the FAC page. I had it ready to go and I PROMISE I will work on bird origins next! Good luck to Daspi! By the way, the Ediacaran biota article is also up as an FAC, I know they are not dinosaurs, but it's not often a paleontology article that we didn't write is nominated! Sheep81 09:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: American Goldfinch is up at FAC also in case anyone is interested. And this one is actually a dinosaur! Sheep81 07:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: American Goldfinch says RAAAR! Sabine's Sunbird  talk 10:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Cool! Good job, Sheep and Bird people! :) Firsfron of Ronchester 20:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ''[[Daspletosaurus]]''

message: An editor removed the section on the alternate theory of birds from the main bird article, Feduccia et al and their finger in their ears "it ain't the dinosaurs" clamouring. Currently their theory gets two lines, one cite to Feduccia and one cite to a refutation. That editor, and another, have suggested removing the alternate theory from bird based on the fact that it gives the theory, widely discredited, undue weight. I put it back, since even though I disagree strongly with the theory (birds=dinos is a slam dunk for me) it seems to have enough of a following, especially with at least a few reasonably credible scientists (Storrs Olson being one of them). But maybe I'm wrong. I'd appreciate the thoughts of some of the dino peeps about this. Go fling some monkey poo around at Talk:Bird#Alternative theories and Alan Feduccia et al. Cheers! Sabine's Sunbird  talk 03:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Their work has been and continues to be published in major science journals. That removes the undue weight restriction right there. It doesn't mean we have to imply that they are right. Just mention the BAND argument, then report all the various refutations. Sheep81 05:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advice on evolution of birds 

message: I've noticed that the "Features linking birds and dinosaurs Feathers, Skeleton, Lungs, Heart, Sleeping posture, Brooding, Care of young, Gizzard, & Molecular evidence" sections of the Origin of birds article are pretty much identical to the original sections in the Dinosaur article when I rewrote it for the FAC. We could simply copy & paste & later expand those sections from the Dinosaur article into the origin of birds article. This would save loads of time & if I'm correct, all those sections are cited in the dinosaur article. Plus we know it's good enough for a featured article, so I'd assume it would be good enough for that article too. Thoughts? Spawn Man 07:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me. cheers,  Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Origin of birds]]: 

message: I'm not sure if this is a dinosaur but I'm giving you guys notice that such article exists, and it is quite a new discovery. Sorry if it's not a dinosaur I'm just not sure what Wikiproject to put it on. Berserkerz Crit 15:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article itself states it was a shrew-like mammal, so it definitely is not a dinosaur. Wikipedia:WikiProject Mammals is the appropriate WikiProject. :) Firsfron of Ronchester 16:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks already posted it there. Berserkerz Crit 17:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Maelestes gobiensis]] 

message: I just left a note on the Rancor page about this, but I'm finding myself mightily confused about some of the entries in the category. I first thought it was only Rancor, but Lapras is certainly nowhere near dinosaurian (unless you are using the colloquial term 'dinosaur,' which includes plesiosaurs and other large reptiles living in parallel)... as such, consider me flustered - or, in fact, uninformed.
I guess it would be nice to at least see some sort of criterium on the category page that explains what classifies the creatures within as dinosaurs, exactly - I certainly was expecting something else. As a first shot at that, how about any reptilian with an upright (rather than lizard-like sprawl) stance? That is what makes dinosaurs special, after all. And promptly, it would make sense to include even the Rancor, though Lapras then still doesn't stand a chance.
Things I think can and maybe should be contested (and why):
* Biollante - a plant by description, with some mosasaur sprinkled in. Unfortunately this is a topic I know nothing about.
* Bulbasaur, Ivysaur and Venusaur - ears*. It's a large lizard, yes, but why dinosaur? Because of the -saur?
* D-War - isn't this about dragons? Note: I don't know anything about the subject other than what is written in the article.
* Guiron - alien, allegedly.
* Kangaskhan - a kangaroo... again, with the ears*, too.
* Lapras - a plesiosaur
* Nidoqueen and Nidoking - because of the large, protruding ears*. Furless, yes, but I always likened them more to something along the lines of a bipedal rhinoceros.
* Megalopseudosuchus - I don't know anything about this one, but the article text expressly mentions something non-dinosaurian: "Megalopseudosuchus alabamaensis ("giant false crocodile from alabama") is a fictional genus and species of gigantic prehistoric amphibian [...]"
* Rancor - I'll admit I find it very hard to jot down a reason for this... but that's because I really can't think of why a Rancor is considered a dinosaur by anyone. I speed-read the article trying to find some sort of reference, and didn't.
* Rhyhorn, Rhydon and Rhyperior - even the name suggests this is (at least primarily) a rhinoceros, no?
* Sauron (comics) - a pterodactyl
* Torterra - is apparently based on Akupara, though the text does, to be fair, mention semblance to Ankylosaurus, which is more than some articles I'm not contesting do. As such, probably Grotle, too. Note that Turtwig isn't in the category.
* About the ears: Call me nerdy, but I expect dinosaurs - or variants thereof - not to have stick-out ears that, as far as I know, are typical only for some mammals.
That's it. I'm not going through all subcategories, and I haven't analysed articles without a picture in my haste. I've tried to be as pedantic as possible, without being overbearing, in hopes that these few articles can be reviewed. For the sake of clarity as to where I stand, the only thing really bugging me is Rancor, Lapras, Megalopseudosuchus and Sauron (comics).
But first and foremost I would much rather see the criteria listed, even if all of the above are shot down. In essence I'm really just confused, that's all. :)
By the way, semi-related, shouldn't Raptor Red be in the :Category:Dinosaurs in fiction? Or is that category only reserved for shows, rather than characters? If so, I think maybe the category "Fictional dinosaurs" could be split into two different categories... one for "fictional characters that are dinosaurs", and one for "fictional dinosaur species."
Okay, that was a huge rambling, and I hope I've not tread on anyone's toes with it - fortunately, I'm now done, and you can shoot all of this down, and tell me what I've been missing. :) -pinkgothic 00:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've taken the cat from Rancor, Sauron, Lapras, Nidoqueen and King, D-War and Guiron. It can probably go from many of the others too. Megalopseudosuchus can probably flat out get deleted. Sabine's Sunbird  talk 00:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Sabine. Actually, fictional dinosaurs aren't (or haven't) really been under the purview of this project; we deliberately excluded fictional dinosaurs and dinosaurs in fiction from WP:DABS and they were never in the running for the List of dinosaurs. It's just impossible to keep track of all the cruft and utter trash people want to add to Wikipedia. I've removed the category from Rhyperior, Rhydon, Rhyhorn, Megalopseudosuchus, Kangaskhan, and Biollante. It's clear those are all mutant creatures, but it is not at all clear that they are dinosaurs. I left the ones that actually ended in -saur, as it's possible the creator meant for them to be dinosaurs, but I have no idea why a giant kangaroo was in the category. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether or not it's in our jurisdiction, including any creature in this category if their original source does not explicitly state they are supposed to be dinosaurs (or, I guess, if they're obviously an exaggerated form of a specific type of dinosaur) is original research. So, the Vestatasaurus from King Kong would count, since it's described in detail in that companion book and obviously based on the Tyrannosaurus from the original. The Goddzilla from the 1998 US version would not count because it was shown in the movie to be a mutated iguana. Not sure abot the original Godzilla, was it ever described as a dinosaur? Rancor from star wars would certainly not count, unless there are secondary sources like novels that call it a dinosaur. Dinoguy2 02:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the original Godzilla was supposed to be a T. rex/Iguanodon/Stegosaurus mutant, according to some sources. Other sources substitute an alligator for Stegosaurus or Iguanodon, but it's still supposed to be, like, 2/3rds dinosaurian. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the quick reactions, everyone! I'm glad my list proved useful. Seeing that my criteria don't seem to be that far off, I would be more than willing to, if it'd be in everyone's interest, to periodically (say, once a month) check the category and keep it clean (with notice on this talk page, of course), if it's giving you guys a headache you don't want - incorporating any decisions made, of course. Just say the word. -pinkgothic 14:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, yes. Quite useful. And humorous, too. :) If you don't mind checking to keep the category clean, I'd love to have you watch over it. :) Sooooooo cool. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, just like Firs watches over Category: Living dinosaurs :) Sheep81 16:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: H'okay, I'll give it a shot! -pinkgothic 16:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category: Fictional dinosaurs 

message: The Dinosaur Portal is now featured after having unopposed support in its nomination. A special thanks goes to J. Spencer who's helped maintain the portal & especially to all the dino team. Thanks, Spawn Man 02:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yay! When do I get paid? :) J. Spencer 03:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't recieve the cheque I sent in the mail?! ;) Spawn Man 04:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's the problem - I was looking for a *check*! J. Spencer 15:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Argh! Americans with their colourful spellings! ;) Gee, thanks guys for the overwhelming congrats on getting the portal featured.... Spawn Man 05:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Portal: 

message: If any of you are truly bored, I could use some help in upgrading this article.  Of course, there's not a lot of evidence, but it's interesting nevertheless.  It started as a POV fork from Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, since I didn't want to waste several paragraphs describing Paleocene dinosaurs.  Any help would be appreciated.  Orangemarlin 06:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Paleocene dinosaurs]]