Talk:Kven/Archive 1

message: "...Swedish traders...but they are dated to 6th century." Swedish and 6th century cannot be used in the same sentence as there existed no such a concept as 'Swedish'/'Sweden' at that time. Perhaps it should be replaced by 'Norse'?
* Swedes (Svear) did indeed exist at that time. Sweden as a nation in the modern sense did not, nor did the people known as Swedes in the modern sense exist. So it is only anachronistic depending on what you mean. It can be used to mean Svear, in reference to that particular Norse tribe, or it can be used more loosely as a collective term for all Norse tribes then living in what is present-day Sweden. How is "Norse" a better term? No people has ever existed who called themselves "Norse", it's merely a collective adjective for all tribes using that language, and certainly no less of an anachronism. "Norse" would refer to all tribes in Scandinavia. "Swede" in the broad sense would refer to Svear, Geats (Götar), Gotlanders and (presumably) Rus'. and "Swede" as in "Svear" would refer to that one tribe. --BluePlatypus 10:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anachronisms?

message: This article still lacks sources, even if it is clean otherwise.  I am re-adding the tag, but I will try to dig up some on my own later tonight. --Foofy 00:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No sources!

message: Unless the editor or editors 213.216.199.xxx wil start discussing their changes in Cwen, Varangian and other articles, the accounts will be blocked from editing wikipedia. mikka (t) 19:03, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: WARNING

message: *I am not a Scandinavian expert, but it's obvious that the article has no references or sources.  Doing a Google search did not help to verify much of the information, either,  except of course from sites that mirrored Wikipedia content.  Unless some kind of reference can be produced (even if it's in another language), this article might be a candidate for deletion. Elonka 06:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC - Request for Comment 

message: The old article Cwen is moved under the title Kven. The newly created Kven is moved to Kven/Version, so that you could transfer your changes into the old article. Please continue to work on a single article. mikka (t) 20:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move

message: Please DON'T create two same pages under different name. The article stared as Cwen in 2004. Please continue it thus, unless you have serious reasons to rename it. also for renaming there is a function  "Move this page", which preserves the edit history of the article.  mikka (t) 21:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page renaming

message: The old article Cwen is moved under the title Kven. The newly created Kven is moved to Kven/Version, so that you could transfer your changes into the old article. Please continue to work on a single article. mikka (t) 20:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move

message: The Finnic Varangian connectios are also given in many of the sources and the related links at the Kven site - for instance on this site, THE URALIC FAMILY HOME PAGE:
http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/earlyfin.htm
The Wikipedian aprerogative seems to want to delete all information relating to the Finnc connections having to do with the Vikings.  That equals to shouting against the wind !
If we cannot relate to the numerous historical sources from the Viking sagas, historic Nordic texts and known historians from all over the world - those from the past and those from the modern day -, as well as the latest DNA research and archeological findings - then whom, what and which sources can we believe ?  What is left ?  
If these numerous sources cannot be revealed, what then ?  After all, these same sources are largely referred to in the writing of the entire Viking history.
Besides of the claimed Finnic roots of the term Variag (given e.g. on the above link), also an increasing number of scientists and researchers are linking the term Rus to Finnic roots (a great number also have prior todate).  The descendants of the modern day Finns (who of course are not fully of the historic Finno-Ugric background) used the term Ruotsi in reference to their western neighbors.  It is largely viewed that the term Rus is derived from the Finnish term Ruotsi.
Similarly, the term "Perm" is derived from the Finnish word for hinterland, and the Permians are known to be the northeastern forefathers of a vast number of the modern day Finns of Finland.
The offered references given on the Wikipedia Kven site include those of Greek, Roman, Arabian, English, American, Norse, Slavic and various Nordic sources.  How much more do we need ?   -- Andy, on the last day of January, 2006
*Please sign your comments by typing four tildes (~~~~). mikka (t) 20:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To all

message: Please don't create chaos in the talk page. Please register yorself user names and use a standard way of signing the comments: by typing four tildes (mikka (t) 20:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Signatures and formatting 

message: Anonymous, you have made this article into a long pot-pourri of prose and opinions, and the talk page is equally confusing. Why do you contually insist on inserting endless sections of dubious theories and then repeat them in the talk page without signing your own postings and with no regard for the policies regarding credibility of sources and format of talk pages? //Big Adamsky 11:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This talk page is a mess, just like the article itself

message: To fulfill the wish above for neutral sources, here are a few. The name "Kwens" appears to be well estalished, although this article perhaps attributes them a little too much attention. 
The article on Swedish Wikipedia writes (based on Nationalencyklopedin)
: Kväner, benämning på finsk minoritet som bosatte sig i Nordnorge under 1500-talet. Ursprungligen nämns termen i tidiga nordiska källor, där de förknippas med ett västfinskt folkslag, eller snarare ett förbund av jägare, fiskare och krigare som härjar runt i norra Skandinavien (se Kvänland) mellan 800 till 1100-talet. I Egill Skalla-Grímssons saga omtalas även en kung vid namn Faravid, som regerade över kvänerna. Birkarlar har sedan länge anses vara dess efterträdare.
which translates to
: "Kwens, name for a Finnish minoriy that settled in northern Norway in the 16th century. Original the term was used in early Norse sources, where they referred to a West Finnish tribe -- or rather to a cooperative of hunters, fishermen and warriors -- that ravaged in northern Scandinavia (See Kwenland) between from the 800s–1100s. In Egill SkallaGrimsson's tale a king by the name Faravid is mentioned to have ruled the Kwens. Birkarlar have since been considered their successors.
Another longer texts which basically says the same can be found in Nordisk familjebok from 1911 (online text in Swedish here). I'll translate that too (roughly and somewhat abreviated):
: Kväner1. According to Egil Skallagrimsson's legend, Thorolf Kveldulfsson met with the king of the Kwens, Faravid. Faravid asked for his help against the Karelias which ravaged his country. In King Alfreds anglosaxian version of Orosius' world history from around 830, this is written "The Kwens ravage occasionally the Norwegians [possibly Northerners], as they travel across the fjelds , while the Norwegians do the same. And there are plenty of great lakes on the other side of the fjelds, and the Kwens carry their ships over land to the lakes and ravage from there the Norwegians"
: It is also mentioned in the Danish King Sven Esitrdsson's story from Adam of Bremen (ca 1070), where he mentiones how there from the fjelds occasionally come onto the plains a kind of people, who are of avarage height but so strong and agile, that the Swedes hardly count measure up to them.
: The name Kwen is only accounted in Icelandic and Norwegian sources and ought to be used only west of Kölen (?). Its meaning is uncertain. The old Kwens nationality has been the subject of much discussion; they were likely Finnish woodland wanderers. It is also probable they were the ancestors of the birkarls. 
: Literature: K. B. Wiklund, "Om kvänerna och deras nationalitet" (i "Arkiv för nord. filol.", bd 12), och K. Grotenfelt, "Über die alten Kvänen und Kviln-land" (i "Annales acad. scient. fenn." B, bd 1). - 2. 
: 2 Norwegian name of the Finnish people living in in northern Norwegian since the early 1700s. In the 1500s and 1600s it was used in Norwegian texts as a name for Finnish wanderers, and is likely to have a connection with its meaning in the medieval age.
Fred-Chess 23:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral sources 

message: Your question regarding the credibility of sources and your inquiry regarding more neutral sources were further answered and fulfilled by BluePlatypus.
The Kven article has plenty of sources and references, both historical and those from the modern time.  The list includes many of the outmost experts on the field, from various countries - and more can be added if it may furhther satisfy anyone.  
You were defending the article already before, though complaining still about some excisting confusion.  It was explained to you e.g. why this topic must be kept apart from Greater Finland, which is altogether a different subject.  
You seem to create a bit "confusion" yourself, e.g. by your additions and deletions to the Kven site.  You earlier added some Finnic groups to the site's See also list, who really have nothing to do with theKvens, thoug they too are Finnic peoples (yet, I personally do not have anything against the additions).  
Yesterday you removed a map from the Norwegian Finns (Kvens) section.  We shall go ahead and insert the map back to the site.  The map shows where the great bulk of the people who today are refered to as Kvens recide.  The same area is shared by the Samis.  Throughout the known history the two peoples have inhabited pretty much the same areas in question (the Samis lived more south too, just like the Finns).
Chess points out to you correctly that the Kven is a well established term - although apparently not to you, prior to this.  Anyone interested more about the Kvens and their culture can find a lot of information about them through the search engines, etc.  Plenty of useful key words are offered on the Wikipedia Kven site.
The user Chess seems to have been a bit rushed, and therefore he seems to have just quickly drawn examples from here and there for you (e.g.:  A Nordisk familjebok from 1911 though is not one of the best sources).   Thank you user Chess.
I may not be familiar with some important modern or historic culture or a group of peoples somewhere, that perhaps you - or say the Wikipedian mikka - may be aware about.  That does not make me fight against reporting about them to those who might be interested.  
You were correct in writing against the childish unfactual accusations by someone visiting the site.  Thank you for that.  I hope to have some time to clearify some of the Kven info a bit later.  Cheers,    - Århus Feb 2, 2006 -
: I ask you respectfully not to refer to me as "Chess". / Fred-Chess 21:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Answer to [[User:Big Adamsky|Big Adamsky]]

message: User Fred-Chess.  Appologies for the accidental copying of only half of you name coding.  Thank you for your comments ! 
I agree with you.  What else can be expected ?  E.g., a good number of approximately millennium old texts were offered in the text.  Already the user mikka has removed some, which only complicates things.  Things will only seem more "mystical" if just one or two references are given for a certain claim that is meant to be brought accross.  
All matters will receive more understanding and believability and their research will become more scientific, when something - e.g. a certain claim - can be verified from a number of sources from the period in question, but also from the modern day sources, such as e.g. recent archeological escavations, which in the case of the Kvens have been - among other references and proof - already bought forward. 
Therefore, for clearification purposes alone , all those earlier offered references to the Kven wars and kings - etc. - discussed in the various Nordic and other historical writing offered - that tell the same story and match with each other, besides matching with other known and related historical proof - should be left to the text.  They show a consensus, a common agreement and understanding about certain events and things that took place, at least in the light of a good amount of information and sources available.  If there would be something available that would battle against this information, then that too can be and must be brought up to our attention. 
Removing the availabe historical or reliable modern reference material in this or other similar cases is wrong and equals to vandalism.  
The users Big Adamsky and mikka ought to give some respect for the historical Scandinavian writings and sources refered to in the Kven text, as well as the referred historians from various countries from the period in question - also the given experts from the modern day that are refered to - also the proof from archeological escavations, etc.   - - January 3, 2006  Jonathan
:Big Adamsky and mikka have no reasons to believe that User:Simply not your speciality (blocked) has enough knowledge to correctly translate and interpret historical Scandinavian writings. Please read wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Whatever you are, you are not better than a 12-year-old boy editing Pokemon articles, as long as you cannot prove your point without accusations of other people in ignorance.  
:Please understand: this is how wikipedia works. The main reason is because unlike scholarly journals, wikipedia is in no position to provide peer review, and all added material must rely on modern published sources, written by verifiable experts. 
:Many people don't like this situation, called anti-elitism, starting from Larry Sanger, one of the founders of Wikipedia, but this is just how it works. See eg Sander's article and Wikipedia:Anti-elitism.
:Wikipedia is something in between Encyclopedi Britannica written by respected experts (but still lots of bullshit and heavy bias, especially older editions) and an unmoderated chat room or someone's blog. Some versions of the Kven article resembled the latter. 
:Warning: the above comments are for your information only, and this talk page will not be the place for discussing anti-elitism. Once again: please stick to the content of Kven, not to credibilitis of editors. Remember once and for all: with the exeption of trolls and vandals (please read wikipedia:vandalism about the exact meaning of this term in wikipedia and don't abuse it), all have equal rights here. mikka (t) 16:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Allow references to remain in the Kven text

message: The user Big Adamsky complicates things by insisting in removing perfectly valid information.  E.g., the map which he now keeps removing - which he calls a "Lapland map" - does not in way represent Lapland, althoug the same map is wrongly used in another context in Wikipedia.  
Let us bare in mind that there remains a lot ow missuse of things and wrong information in Wikipedia.  Anyone in Scandinavia - including first graders -, and a whole lot of people elsewhere can assit you and tell you that the area darkened in the map * * * DOES NOT REPRESENT LAPLAND * * * !
Officially speaking, Lapland is the northernmost province of the current day Finland.  Finnmark, on the other hand, is the northernmost province of today's Norway.  
The area darkened in the map - which we shall now insert back to Kven text - shows rather accurately the area today inhabited by the Kvens and the Samis in Norway.  Thus, it fits the portion of the Kven text that concentrates into the Finns of Norway.  Those two groups have traditionally shared the same territories - by in large, anyway - in Norway.
Aren't you the Wikipedian who complained of being confused ?  Then hold your horses, please.  
The northernmost territory of Norway nor the area darkened in the map in question do not constitute now - nor have they ever constituted - an area called Lapland in any official sence, nor otherwise either (although the Samis have traditionally lived on those areas darkened in the map, and although now the areas described are their heartlands.  The Kvens share much or the same territory).
Please, set your curser abobe the map, so you'll see the hyber text.  We'll set a text under the map, too.  --  January 3, 2006  Jonathan
:This map is not Kvenland map. Where did you take it? mikka (t) 17:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The map is not a Lapland map

message: One of the major problems with Wikipedia is - of course -, that the "mystified" users of any given topic can go and change and remove the related - and often very valid - info as they please, simply because it may not be to their liking.
In the Kven article thremendously valid info was brought forward in a large and neutral scale by people who are quite familiar with the topic.  No political or other ampitions or one sited conclusions or assumptions were represented.
Then we have users like Big Adamsky and mikka who have revealed that they have no knowledge about the issue here.  Yet, instead of giving a chance for things to proceed in a good order and instead of respecting the numerous references, sources and opinions of those who know, they make the text their own playfield of their own views.
It is not thremendously hard to cause this sort of harm to any information in Wikipedia.  The users Big Adamsky and mikka should try to avoid rushing into conclusions, and instead they should let the events play themselves out in the hands of those who are familiar with the topic.
We are not here to (only) teach the above users, but to offer information for the entire internet community.  The user mikka wanted to discuss, and he was given that.  The user Big Adamsky wanted references, and he was given those from multiple sources.  Now these Wikipedia users seem to want to hit their heads against the wall and battle against the history itself.       
Some respect, please !  The author(s) made it clear that the text was obviously a work in progress, and that it would be simplifief shortly.  Let them narrate the article, when they have the moment available    - - January 3, 2006  Jonathan
*Offensive user name "simply not your speciality" blocked indefinitely. mikka (t) 16:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The major problem with Wikipedia

message: The following is a translation of the words of an eminent historia, who admittedly is no specialist in this subject but has read several books on it
Several theories are abound surrounding the Kven. This article, despite a nice reference list, only seems to adhere to one of those theories. Missing from the list is a book by Kustaa Vilkuna, Kyösti Julku and Thomas Wallerström. Julki believes that Kvenland (mentioned in the Sagas) referred to the coast regions. Walleström believes that the Kven and Kainuulaiset terms are for finnish-ugric people who are not Saamii, all the way from the coastal region to the White Sea. --Stalfur 17:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article only brings up one viewpoint 

message: A RfC on this article has been posted at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. / Fred-Chess 08:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  request for comment on article 

message: You said the following:
"... This map is not Kvenland map. Where did you take it? mikka (t) 17:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To user [[user:mikkalai|mikka]] [[user talk:mikkalai|(t)]] 

message: The following was moved from Finnic where it was too specific (aswell as too dubious and unverified) to remain:
 Kvens 
While the descendants of the Finnic peoples outside Finland and Estonia in the northernmost Europe - i.e. in the rest of Scandinavia and in today's entire north-western territories of Russia - have largely assimilated with the majority groups and populations in many cases, they still remain a more or less visible minority group in many areas, of which the areas inhabited by the Kvens of Northern Norway, the Tornedalians (the Tornedalian Kvens) of Northern Sweden and the Viena Karelians and East Karelians (historically the Bjarms - or Bjarmian Kvens) are among the most strong.
It is nowadays held for true, based on archeological findings and historical documents, that during the last centuries of the first millennium — and at least to a certain extent already since the end of the last ice age — the areas of today's Northern Sweden and Northern Norway were inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples, and that the culture and traditions in these areas are continuous with that of the Finns and the Samis. In historical Norse writings, Viking chronicals and rime writings as well as in the Finnish epic Kalevala this area is usually referred to as Kvenland, the land of the Kvens. 
However, the present-day Finnic inhabitants of Northern Norway and Sweden are - for the most part - considered to be descendants of later Finnic migrants from south-central and south-western Finland, the Tornedalians migrants during the Viking Age having moved up north mostly from Tavastland or the surrounding areas.
81.236.184.210 12:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved text from article on Finnic peoples 

message: Fred-Chess must stop making unfounded changes in the Kven text.  His theory of the Kvens being descendants of the 16th century Finnish immigrants - and not from before - has no scientific foundation, and that sort of theory is not supported by any known historian or researcher.  Who.
It is very likely that also on the 16th century such migration took place.  Yet, the modern research - also the research from the past - very much verifies what has been thought for long.  The oldest Finnish settlements, to a large extend, started from the north.  Thus, the very oldest settlements of humans in the area of the modern-day Finland have been detected from Enontekiö, Utsjoki, Inari and Suomussalmi in Northern Finland.  The oldest such findings are from 10 000 years ago.  In Southern Finland, on the other hand, only the findings from Ristola and elsewhere near the city of Lahti date as far back - up to 11 000 years ago.  
The biggest reason for this of course is the fact that during the period in question the Northern Finnish territories were warm, and therefore best area for habitation in Scandinavia - walnut trees grew as north as Oulu -, and much of the other parts of Scandinavia were still covered by ice of the last ice age, including the entire area of the Southwestern Finland.  The coastal areas of today's Norway were free of ice starting about that time, as well - and some of the Finnic forefathers are now claimed to have arrived via that route also, not only from south and southeast.    
Several historic texts from the first millennium AD discuss the Kvens of the extreme northernmost Scandinavia.  Taticus, Ottar, Alfred the Great, Al-Idrisi, 
Grammaticus, Sturluson and others already brought up in the Wikipedia Kven text are not the only ones at all.  The Viking Age sagas and chronicles, for one, have much of references to the Kvens, using that name, written in old Norse, and in a version of the Swedish language of the period - Islandish too.   
Besides, the archeological findings from the last decades, the most important ones - perhaps -from as recently as 2005, from Inari, Enontekiö, Utsjoki and Suomusjärvi show settlements from as far past as 10 000 years ago.
The over 10 000 years old cliff painting of the so called Alta man is believed to have been drawn by the Kvens as well.
In this comment the prehistoric signs of human life, dating up to 40'000 - 125'000 years ago, between the ice ages and much before the last ice age, from the Southern Finnish Susiluola escavations, are purposly left aside.
Please, if you are not Big Adamsky, stop behaving like him.
 - Roberto A., March 06, 2006 -
: I and Big A. have been discussing this. We think you should write on Wikibooks instead. This article wants to focus on established knowledge. I will continue to remove speculations based on your interpretation of primary sources. Instead, a Wikipedia article is to be based on secondary sources such as established scholarly material of today. / Fred-Chess 14:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A number of Viking Age references to the ''Kvens'' of the arctic Ocean

message: You Fred-Chess are quite obviously trying to enforce your nationalistic private opinions to Wikipedia.
First, let us state that on the "16th century" too, some Finnic migration to the northernmost Scandinavia took place.  Yet, your claim totally incorrectly and in a priviously unheard way tries to insinhuate that the Finnish "Kven" history only begins from the "16th century". 
Most recently you have - for instance - repetedly cut away the sources and information offered from the recent Utsjoki archeological escavations, which are yet another additional and undisputed proof of 7500-10000 years old Finnish settlements in the northernmost Scandinavia, from the period when the Southern Finnish and other Scandinavian territories were still getting free of the massive ice formations of the last ice age.  
The artifacts discovered from the Norhtern Finnish escavations in Utsjoki, Inari, Enontekiö, Suomussalmi, Suomusjärvi, Oulu (Kaakkuri graves), etc., reviel information of the inhabitants who lived in the areas in question.
Understandably unable and due to a lack of any reliable source agreeing with you, dispite of many requests on this page you have not cared to even try to provide any sources to support your outragious claims regarding Kvens being a "Finnic minoriy that settled in northern Norway in the 16th century." (your spelling error is purposely left untacked)
You are attempting to begin the Wikipedia Kven article with a false, unfounded statement, which is not supported by any known researchers, historians or scientists.  If you disagree, please finally answer, by who ?  
As in the above comment the writer "Roberto" did, we too ask you to explain what do you have to support you claim with !
In your above comment you refer having "discussed this" with another Wikipedia user, Big Adamsky, who previously on this page already has proven to be a newcomer to this topic.  He discribes the information of the Wikipedia Kven page - a subject he had not studied before - "fascinating".  Please realize that we simply cannot base any Wikipedia information on his speculations.  
As suspected here before, you two indeed come out as a one and the same person, using a different user name.
As his Wikipedia record shows, the user Big Adamsky has not provided Wikipedia with anything useful or constructive - only disconstruction, as stated here before.
Please, stop vandalizing Wikipedia, and try to hold your nationalistic feelings and pride at bay.  Please, peacefully face the widely accepted and proven fact that the "Swedish" intervention and history in Northern Scandinavia only begins from the "16th century", whereas the Finnish history in the area provenly begins from the end of the last ice age.
Thank you for your cooperation !  Who says "16th century" ?,  March 7, 2006 
: Listen to me carefully now. I will for now refrain from listing you at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User_conduct partly because I don't like the extra work it would take. I will give you 48 hours to do something constructive. You have been told what we, me and others on this discussion page, request of you. The tags on the article page should be strong reminders in case you've forgot. 
: As writers of a serious media, we don't accept links to various speculating personal home pages. We need scholary literature with credit. Please use in text quoting, and see Wikipedia:Citing sources for policy, and Wikipedia:Footnotes for the methods. 
: Regards Fred-Chess 18:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What known, reliable source claims the Kvens to be descendants of "16th century" Finns - and not descendants of a much earlier stock, to which all notable and offered scientists agree ?

message: It is important that the exact use of the references get noted.
There are currently too many external links. If they contribute to any part of the article, please use a footnote system to denote this. Otherwise they will have to be removed.
Please also reference what the main sources are and how they are used. Don't just spew in lots of material: Provide the main references, and give exact links to minor references.
Thank you Fred-Chess 22:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Todo 

message: :I have inverted my answers in the text. 
Based on your criteria, 217.30.179.130, all historic texts from the Viking Age - whether Arabian, Roman, German, Greek, Slavic, Nordic or what ever - can be characterized as not having any value, due to their "semi-mythological or fictious character", unless they happen to glorify your Swedish distortion of history.
: What? I would suggest rersearchers to be careful with early medieval texts even when they a studying purely Scandinavian matters. 
You added the word "mythological" (kings of ...) into the following sentence:  "Fundinn Noregr discusses the kings of Finland and Kvenland and their conquest of Norway."  
:According to Finnish historians, they are mythological. See article by Mikko Häme in Faravid 1991, if you read Finnish. See also the article Suomen kuninkaat in Finnish Wikipedia. 
Your aim proves to be the discoloring of information and facts, in your shallow - but childishly obvious - ways.  
:I do not need to comment.
Too many historic sources discuss Kven and Finnish kings - and their deeds and conquests, etc. - for them not to have existed and for them to not be taken seriously - as an additional valuable source.  As a number of historical sources discuss these people and these events, the information becomes more scientifically valuable.
:This is your own interpretation, it is NOT shared by the FInnish historians and archaologists, and it does not belong here. Don't you know anything about the rules of Wikipedia? 
Burial sites of Vikings discussed by name in the Nordic sagas - for nstance - have been found in Finland.
:Can you actually mention such sites and names, and present sources? I have not heard of a single case, despite quite extensive reading of Finnish archaological texts. I am quite sure such burial sites do not exist. However, I am aware of couple of burials, which have inspired scientific speculations of a possible service in the Varangian Guard by the deceased. One of them has been found in the celebrated cemetery of Luistari in Eura. But no one knows his name - and not a single "Viking" burial of pure Scandinavian character has ever been reported in the Finnish mainland. This is verified in the books by Matti Huurre, Torsten Edgren, Ella Kivikoski and Pirkko-Liisa Lehtosalo-Hilander, all of them Finnish archaeologists    
The men were written to have served in the Byzantine guard.  In this type of context and in these type of cases your mythology theories become well proven to be only pure "grab". 
:As you do not present a single scientific source, I must presume you are just making up your own fantasies. 
Thus, all of the historic related sources must be revealed, and - importantly - without discoloration of any kind.  This will enable and help us each make up our own conclusions.  When all is revealed, the mythology view point of yours vanishes.
:I am quite unconvinced.
Your choice of wording reveals your own believes and assumptions, and "draws very distorted and national-chaunivinistic interpretations".   You are attempting to build history to your own liking, siding the sources that best fit your purpose, at the same time leaving out the part of historically true related facts which happen to not support your aims.
:I was impolite to speculate about your personal motivations, and I need to apologize that. But I do not believe I have actually selected true facts. There is a difference between science and pseudo-science.  
If you wish to contribute knowledge of history to others, you must allow the readers make their own conclusions, even as to what is "mythological" - in this case and others - and what is not.  
:I can agree with that, but I think it is fair to express clearly what is established scholarship and what is not.
You carry on with too many similar attempts to draw readers to side with your personal opinions and conclusions, for them all to be listed here.  Could you just provide facts, and no more personal views, please.
:I am providing facts and views shared widely among the research.
What do we have to make out of your following - rather useless - sentence:  "However, nowaday many researchers consider it unrealistic to associate tribes mentioned in antiquity to modern ethnic groups."
:To example, the Finnish nation really came into existence when a Finnish identity was born, i.e. during the 19th century. The Fenni mentioned by Tacitus may or may not have been our ancestors. At least they had a name which was a remarkably similar to the name of Finns. This does not, of course, mean that the Fenni of the Roman Iron Age should or could be directly associated to the modern Finnish or Sami nations, just like the Suiones mentioned by Tacitus were not the modern Swedish nation. It is very difficult to reconstruct the ethnic identities in prehistory, and ethnic names have carried very different meanings in the different periods of history.
Do you mean to say that many researchers do consider, and - perhaps - that many others do not ?  Or what ?  We all know how to compare the Navajo Indians now and then, or the people of Israel now and then, etc.  Your attempt to diminish and downplay the value of facts is amusing, to put it in kind terms.
:I do not understand this rather incoherent argument. But I presume the Navajo identity has not always been there.    
What happened to the Kvens of today's Northeastern Sweden ?  Nothing spectacular, of course.  They did not vanish anywhere mysteriously.  Many today can offer their family trees leading to the historic Kvens and Kvenland.
:At least it is a fact that a Finnish-speaking people has been living in the riverine valleys of Northern Sweden for a long time. According to the stablished views, their ancestors settled there duri9ng the 12th century. I do not knoew was the connection between those settlers and the obscure Kvens of the Scandinavian texts. It's been a long time since I read the excellent dissertation of Thomas Wallerström abouth this topic.
It is common knowledge and well established, that the Tornedalians were granted special rights by the Swedes, for the Kvens to be able to continue their traditional type of life in north, including the taxation ot the Samis, etc.  Those rights were the so called Birka rights - pirkkaoikeudet for your "Finnish eyes".
:I know the Birkarlar (pirkkamiehet in Finnish) but how this fact is related with our disagreement? Pirkka rights are not necessarily earlier than the 13th century, if I remember correctly.
To a large extend, the Kvens became peacefully and gradually assimilated with the rest of the society expanding northwards.  There is nothing mystical about that.  The Kvens assisted in the expansion of Sweden up north, as is well known.  The two folks peacefully cooperated.  
:Yeah, that's correct, if we understand the Kvens as the Finnish-speaking settlers of Northern Sweden. Of course they were never assimilated completely - Tornedalians are still there.
The areas furthest up north and east remained isolated - untouched and unaffected by other populations and cultures - for the longest.  The very first road to the Northern Norwegian Bugoynes - for instance - was not built before 1950s.
:I believe that.
As the newer version for the Kven text - among its other shortcomings - attempted to hide the obvious connection between the Kvens and the Kvens (really), also - ridiculously - Kvens and Kvenland, it was right for the older version to be brought back to drawing board.  It of course needed cleaning, editing, cutting, too.
:I think your text simply contained a lot of errors and dubious theories presented as facts. Of course, the present Kvens in Northern Norway have a connection with the Finnish-speaking medieval settlers in Northern Sweden and Finland. 
Despite of many attempts, the provider of the newly offered theories and personal views refused to discuss his claims or to provide any sources for his theories. That kind of behavior fights against the essence and the nature of Wikipedia.  The Wikipedia user mikka (t) supports this sort of vandalism with his blocking attempts and actions relating to the Kven text.  
:I do not need to comment. Mikkalai can aswer for his actions, although I do not see them as vandalism. 
If that type of methods are chosen to be used, the provider(s) of unreferenced information who are not willing in any way to discuss - or scientifically back up - their personal theories and conclusions, must be blocked.
:So, please, stop presenting unreferenced information yourself. 
We agree with those suggesting for the Wikipedia user mikka (t) to be prevented of orchestrating vandalism on the Kven related information in Wikipedia.     -- Swedish eyes must look at history more clearly -  March 14, 2006 --
:My Finnish eyes have looked history quite closely. I am sorry that I cannot sing under because my poor keyboard. I am the modifier with the IP addresses beginning alternatively 130 and 217. I live in Jyväskylä, Finland.
:: Thanks for your comments, user 130.xxx / 217.xxx. I know it is discouraging with all the comments by this one user who spams this talk page with his peculiar opinions. But you can be certain that we are very grateful of your expertice in this area. I speak for myself, Fred Chess, and probably for Mikka and Big Adamsky too. Most other comments on this talk page were written by one and the same user, but do not represent a shared opinion. / Fred-Chess 19:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Distortion of history by Swedish eyes

message: I can see that the article no longer receives contributions from IP adresses or newly created accounts, which is a healthy thing in my opinion. But the extremely long comments on this talk page with a troll-ish condescending tone and speculations about other editors' agendas and intellectual capacities continue, it appears.
Anyhow, I propose adding the usual ethnobox, which is a common practice for Wikipedia articles dealing with ethnic groups. It could look something like this: 
I would also recommend eventually adding these three links about the modern ethnic group known as the Kven Finns:
#Ruija Kven Museum: Who Are the Kvens?
#Images of the Kven: A Minority in North Norway
#Varanger.com: The Kven People
In any case, I have fixed up a bit on the article about Finnic peoples to explain their varying degrees of inter-relatedness and likely common origin (it could still use additional help/comment, no doubt). I'm not going to put too much energy into this, but as always, I'd be happy to comment. //Big Adamsky 13:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: My contribution

message: The recent political decisions and the over all direction taken by many Nordic leaders are a salutable igniter for the rapidly and positively changing attitudes towards Kvens and towards the way their past is viewed in history writing.  
The lack of public funding for research and for critical examination of history has continued to be a broblem, which in Finland - for instance - has stemmed from past attitudes and a consensus rooted deep by the illfated policies imposed during the Finlandization period of Finland.  Thus, a wake up call goes out now for those in charge of public funding.
:Yeah, personally I wish I could have more funding for my own research.
:It's not going to happen, however.
 
Last week a Finnish national TV channel aired a YLE (National public proadcast system, heavily reculated and controlled by the government) documentary, in which top scientists revealed that the old Finland's prehistoric migration theory has fully now been sent to garbage can.  Arrows were shown in a map, some pointing up Norwegian coast north, next to the vastly thick ice masses of the last Ice Age (which ended approximately 10'000-11'000 years ago).  The migration towards the Finnish areas of today were shown going around the ice masses via Northern Scandinavia.  This is no longer at all "only one theory among the many theories" as user Wikipedia user 217.30.179.130 let's believe.
:I can accept that Northern Scandinavia was one of the migration routes, but were these migrants Fenno-Ugrian? I seriously doubt there is any consensus of that, and that is what I meaned when I used the formulation "one theory among many theories". Did you misunderstand my point, or deliberately distort it?
Professor Kalevi Wiik was shown explaining that - according to his research based understanding - Finno-Ugric language/s were the "kantakieli" - the ancient mother tongue - of the the people inhabiting the Central European areas approximately 6000 years ago, for instance. 
:Theories of Professor Wiik are widely disputed among the linquistics, and Wiik has only few followers. I do not have competence to evaluate his theories, but a controversial theory should be presented as a controversial theory. And in any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Kvens. No one doubts that Fenno-Ugrian speaking population have been living in Northern Scandinavia for a very very long time. Not all Fenno-Ugrians are Finns. It is an insult to the Sami identity to forget this. Why do you keep blabbering of this stuff, which is certainly interesting but also quite inessential for the Kven discourse? 
Although the user 217.30.179.130 says that "The situation has not changed much after the 1960´s when Ella Kivikoski wrote the Prehistory of Finland, the only standard text of Finnish prehistory available in English", it actually has in the research level.  Writing of the findings thumbles behind however, unfortunately.
:So you keep distorting my points of view, disregarding my clarifications and putting my sentences out of context. 
User 217.30.179.130 reports having "read several" books about the last Finnish wars.  Yet, in his March 4th, 2006 Helsingin Sanomat article, Professor Jouko Vahtola writes an opinion where he accuses the lack of public funding for the lack of published examining ("tutkimuksellinen") scientific work.
Vahtola reminds that the first scientific book about Finland's Winter War was published nearly 40 years after the war.  Thanks to the opening political atmosphere, the related research has speeded up during the last decade, but not with a support of public research funding, but thanks to private efforts ("... etupäässä opinnäytteinä, Maanpuolustuskorkeakoulun virkatöinä, ja yksityisten tutkijoiden harrastuksesta").
:OK. I misunderstood your previous formulation, which could have been more presice. 
Talking about mythology, this Vahtola calls a "national myth" (he refers to the lack of interest shown my the national decision makers).   -- CONSERNED, March 18, 2006 --
:I don't think I will continue this  dialogue, as it seems that no essentially new points of view are coming forth, and I find it quite frustrating to constantly see my arguments and statements systematically mutilated and distorted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.234.5.136 (talk • contribs) 
User:130.234.5.136, I can truly empathize with you and no one will blame you for abandoning this article (I, too, have given up), and I would like to commend you for taking the time and effort to address the objections and claims of the possessive editor(s)-with-multiple-aliases. Still, if you feel that Wikipedia is a cool place to exchange knowledge and insights you might want to make your presence here more permanent and lern more about how everything works in here. PS: If you are unable to sign your postings on talk pages due to keyboard limitations, simply use the tilde sign (x4) in the non-English graphemes collection below the edit box. You could also copy and paste tildes from the talk page itself. :v) //Big Adamsky 10:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lack of public funding a major cause for lack of information

message: Nobody wants to daddy this page anymore. There just isn't much more to say about the Kwens then the article does, and all major contributions by anonymous users have been speculations. I'm semi-protecting it. Any correcting you wish to make of the article, state on this discussion page. / Fred-Chess 22:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protection added 

message: I can't separate IP-user 213.xxx and 131.xxx and 80.xxx, if they are the same, who is who, etc. I also know that all suspicious edits are made by the rude sockpoppet user such as Drow Ssap ("Pass Word") who just ads speculations. So I'm going to arbitrarily revert all changes by anonymous people or people with suspicious user names. 
An editor with apparent knowledge of the topic said in the previous section that he was fed up with the unbased speculation that he had to respond to. Furthermore, several people have responded on this page, and given their opinions on other pages such as Mikkai's talk page, and all have expressed how tired they are of how the editor presents the article. 
I also don't have the time to check every fact, but I have the impression the current article version is acceptable, so I'll leave it that way.
Dear user: one of the cornerstones of Wikipedia is Wikipedia:Verifiability that states  "verifiability, not truth". Read it carefully and ponder if Wikipedia is your media, or if you should modify your behaviour to make it more acceptable.  
Finally, if someone can think of a better dispute resolution, let me know.
Fred-Chess 12:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My arbitrary dispute solution 

message: Whereas other writers seem to have presented sources for their Wikipedia's Kven text contributions (whether depatable or not), Fred-Chess has - despite of many pleas made to him - stubornly, and obiously unable, refused to provide any sources for his claims, which are unsoported by science.
Dispite of many well fouded complaints on this page regarding the behavior of Fred-Chess, he only seems to act even more strongly against the rules set by the Wikipedia community.
Fred Chess' behavior fights against the very essense of the guidelines set by the Wikipedia community.  Yet, now Fred-Chess is threatening to take his vandal actions even a step further.  Now he is publicly threatening to revert edits by other contributors, stating above that "I'm going to arbitrarily revert all changes ...", etc.  
Fred Chess' reasonings for protecting the Kven page are called "weird" by the Wikipedia user Splash at  "22:32, 22 March 2006" in the Kven page's history page (user Splash:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Splash). 
By the "editor with apparent knowledge of the topic" Fred Chess apparently means the editor [[User:217.30.179.130|217.30.179.130].
However, even that editor correctly sides against Fred Chess in a fundamentaly important issue.  That editor, 217.30.179.130, states:  
"Of course, the present Kvens in Northern Norway have a connection with the Finnish-speaking medieval settlers in Northern Sweden and Finland."
:Please do not misuse my words as a part your personal animosity against Fred-Chess. 195.237.90.72 12:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Fred chessplayer|Fred]]-[[User_talk:Fred chessplayer|Chess]]' reasonings are called "weird" by ''Splash''

message: This has, IMO, been an important issue of the debate of this page. The anyonmous Kven-user who has edited so much is confident they are related. He just removed the sentence: "However, those Kvens bear no immediate heritage of the historical Kvens.". However, many others seem to disagree with him, and think the sentence is accurate. Opinions, comments?
Fred-Chess 18:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are the historical Kvens related to the Norwegian Kvens? 

message: From the previously anonymous user 130.../213...: I would suggest a change in a sentence in the introduction: "(The modern Kvens)...have no known link to the historical Kvens". This is not completely true. My suggestion: "The modern Kvens are a result of the long-lasting, gradual expansion of Finnish settlement and language in northern Scandinavia. This process started during the medieval period, possibly slightly before, and many researchers think that the historical Kvens mentioned in Old Scandinavian sources represent an early phase of the Finnish settlement expansion". I think this is a fair description of the scholarly status quo, without any nationalist strain Kraak 08:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: "(Kuussaari, 1935) This is called the "Riga, Åland, Gulf of Finland triangle."  Vikings are often equated with Varangians, who came to consist of both Finns and Swedes, as the latter turned eastward and joined the Finns in the beginning of the second millennium.  Varangians never invaded the British Isles - those invaders are called Vikings (the Finns are thought to have participated on those tours as well). "
Do you seriously think that an obscure text, written during the national-chauvinistic 1930´s, is proof of anything???? If you do, you have absolutely no idea of scientific source criticism, and not too much common sense either (a rare disability in a Finn). 
As far as I can remember, Kuussaari´s book is never referenced in any Finnish scientific publications, so it is obvious what the scientific status of the said book is. It is not taken seriously. I confess I have not read the book - but even if I did, I simply could not immediately accept those claims that you have presented. Why not? Well, because I have no linquistical competence, I cannot say if the etymologies suggested by Kuussaari are total bullshit or not. Probably they are, as they are apparently never referred in any work that could be taken seriously. But to be quite sure, I would need an opinion of a modern linguistical researcher. It is astonishing that you fail to realize this and take Kuussaari´s theories as valid facts. 
Kuussaari´s theories must checked against the historical and archaeological materials. Archaeological material absolutely does not support those wild ideas of Kuressaari. Some uncertain "Varangian" burials are known in Southern Finland, some Finnish artefacts from the Viking Age are known in Russia. It is certainly possible that some "Finnish" individuals or small groups participated in the Varangian movement; indeed, it would be strange if no one did. But the Finnish participation could have been only a minor part of the whole process. In Sweden the archaeological evidence of frequent travelling on the Russian riverine routes is, quite simply, huge compared to Finland. Inhabitants of Sweden - call them "Swedes" if you really have to - were visiting North-western Russia already in the late 8th century, as is very well proven by archaeology. I do not need to cite references, as there is a huge array of books telling about the "East Viking" archaeology.
Unfortunately, we know very little about the sea-faring technology of Viking Age Finns, as our maritime archaeologists have not found so many prehistoric wrecks. 
"During the "great migrations", these people developed into various warrior types such as Kaleva, Kolbias, "kalpamiehet", Karelian "kylfings", and others who had come to some type of mutual understanding regarding what territories each group controlled, and - above all - the organization of armies."
This old theory is wildly speculative and has no convincing evidence, to say at least!
"The Finns' heritage, the knowledge of their vast ancient kingdom - was it taken away by the new Swedish rulers and the Slavs from the south ?  The Nordic Sagas and other independent sources of the time seem to indicate just that....""Thus, it is not at all an accident that a number of non-Finnish historical sources discuss Finnish and Kven kings." 
Maybe they seem do that for you, but I have different ideas. The "Finnish (Sami)" or "Kven" "kings" in the Sagas can be explained away quite easily (paper by Mikko Häme has been referred to), and archaeology blatantly contradicts those nationalistic fairy tales about "vast ancient kingdom" (for example, see the doctoral dissertation of Professor J.-P. Taavitsainen). For starters, I have modified a source critical essay "Suomen kuninkaat" in the Finnish Wikipedia. 
"The epic Finnish poetry of the Kalevala reveals, that the Finns had a high level of civilization for a long time before either the Swedes or the Russians came to their lands."
Even the most "primitive" hunter-gatherer tribes can have epic poetry and impressive rich mythology. 
"This is why any serious student of Finno-Ugric history must have a working knowledge of the Kalevala."
If you had any working knowledge of the Kalevala, you would know that Kalevala is a 19th century compilation, and it does contain a lot of stuff invented by the compilator Elias Lönnroth.  To use the old Finnish-Karelian epic poetry you need to forget the Kalevala and go straight to the original litterations in the Suomen kansan vanhat runot series. And then you need to have deep folkloristical expertise to be able to say anything that has not been said and refuted before. 
"Today the fascists in Russia claim that the North never even belonged to the Finns, and that the Slavs are the original people of the North."
Russian fascists and national chauvinists are utterly disgusting, but the Finnish ones are hardly better. I am not calling you a fascist, but the theories you constantly keep referring to have an ultra-nationalistic background. 
  
"One thing is for certain: The Finnish traders traveled east long before they were joined by Swedes. Would it make sense that the Russians came into contact with Finnish "Varangians" or traders first, then both Swedish and Finnish when the Finns came under the Swedish kings in the second millennium ?" 
Here you actually manage to bring forth a half-truth. There is archaeological evidence of contact networks among the Fenno-Ugrian populations of Fennoscandia and Northern Russia already from the 4th century onwards. However, no one knows if it was "Finnish traders" visiting Russia, or eastern Fenno-Ugrian ("Permic") traders visiting Finland. Possibly it was both ways. Or possibly it was gift-exchange between neighbouring groups.
Of course, the "Swedes" arrived in the scene lot before the second millennium, but it is certainly conceivable that their early expeditions were sometimes based on the earlier Fenno-Ugrian contact systems. I think that a famous Swedish archaeologist Ingmar Jakobsson (I am not sure of the name) has written or lectured about this. However, this does not prove that the etymology of the "Varangian" would be Finnish.  
"Under the Swedish rule, the Finns were obliged to serve in the Swedish (Sweden-Finland) army."
Could you please start sticking to the point? I believe everyone here is sick and tired of your infuriating habit to write extensively of topics which have absolutely nothing to do with the articles or discussions at hand. That´s why so many modifications made by you have been removed from different articles - not necessarily because they were substantially incorrect, but simply because you have put them into a wrong place.
The first known written mentioning of the Kvens appeared in 98 AD, when the Roman historian Gaius Cornelius Tacitus wrote in his book, Germania, about the Sithons who were ruled by a woman (Kvenland, 1986, page 51, Emeritus Professor Kyösti Julku).
Well, this was not the best idea of Professor Julku.  The Sithoni mentioned by Tacitus and the Kvens mentioned 800 years later have two thing in common: at least the Kvens and possibly the Sithoni as well were living somewhere in North-eastern Fenno-Scandinavia, and both were associated with "female rulership", the later apparently being a literary trophe in the Latin ethnography. The Viking Age Kvens may or may not have been descendants of the Sithoni (now one knows for sure where the Sithoni actually lived). Anyway, there is hardly any reason to claim that the Sithoni and Kvens were essentially a same group. Between them were 800 years of cultural change and re-formulation of ethnic identities, and possibly no connection at all... 
"In 1187 AD, according to a Swedish chronicle, the main Swedish business and trading center ("capital"), Sigtuna, is conquered and destroyed by an attack from easterly direction."
Only a minor correction here; Sigtuna was not a "business and trading center" like earlier Birka, but an important royal and administrative center and a see. "Capital" is a poor expression here, as Sweden did not have a capital until the late 16th century.
  
Why do I bother? 130.234.75.183 08:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Reply to Art Dominique/Max

message: Thank God the edit war seems to be over. However, I would like to kindly remind that a blatant contradiction still exists in the text:
"Many prehistoric burials are known from the Finnish side of Gulf Of Bothnia to the 8th century, but afterwards only a handful of burials are known."
Compare:
 
"Before the 8th century there are scarsely any remains of the Kvens." 
217.30.179.130 20:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction