Talk:Wine/Archive 1

message: I propose a slightly edited version of the intro text as follows:
:Wine is an alcoholic beverage resulting from the Fermentation of grapes or grape juice. The word comes from the Greek οινοσ and through the Latin vinum - referring to both "wine" and the "vine").  Wine-like beverages can also be made from other fruits or from flowers or grains. In this sense the word wine is used with a qualifier, for example, elderberry wine. The word wine by itself always means grape wine. This terminology is often defined by law.
:The remainder of this article discusses grape wine. For non-grape wines, see country wine or Chinese wine.
:Wine is of particular interest for several reasons. It is a popular and important beverage that accompanies and enhances a wide range of European and Mediterranean style cuisines, from the simple and traditional to the most sophisticated and complex. As an agricultural product it reflects, more than any other, the variety of the land, the local yeast cultures and the climate and conditions under which grapes are grown, the so-called "terroir". As a result, wine is a very varied and, year-on-year, variable product - perhaps more so than any other. The fermentation process itself and improvements attained with proper ageing, sometimes for a century or more, will further increas variation. However, variety is not in itself a sought after quality for large producers of table wine or more affordable wines. For large and modern factory wines and mass market wine brands consistency is more important than distinction and their producers  try to hide any hint of often unremarkable "terroirs" or climatically underperforming harvest years, by blending harvests of various years and vinyards, pasteurizing the grape juice in order to kill indigenous yeats (after which "choice" cultivated yeasts are reinserted), using flavor additives and so on. Wine is also used in religious ceremonies in many cultures and the wine trade is of historical importance for many regions. 
Comments: what is important should come first (drinking some good wine with your meal!). The English was at moments a bit jumbled. The year on year blend issue applies also to proper champagne - all the non-millésime French stuff is blended (an not cheap!). I am not so sure this discussion on variety, terroir and manipulation actually belongs here - it may sit better somewhere else in this article.
cheers --Modi 22:04, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction - some suggestions

message: *I took the liberty of removing the quotes section since all of the quotes were already in Wikiquote. I'm not sure if there's an official policy regarding these sorts of things, but to me it seemed unencyclopedic, and after all, this is the reason that Wikiquote exists. If anyone seriously objects, feel free to revert. Andyabides 04:21, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed quotes section 

message: Someone please write an article about fake wines or fakeing intoxicating liquors in general. This is a way cool topic. You can make very stong spirits out of artifical fertilizer, linoleum, horse manure (sic!), aromatic tablets, discarded grape peel, carrot sugar and all kinds of chemicals. Wine faking is a big business some places in Eastern Europe.
I remember there was a big wine faking scandal in France some 12-15 years ago?
I second this request. From Roman times to the English embargo of claret and even modern times there is quite a bit of info to coverAgne27 14:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wine faking article, anyone? 

message: I don't understand the remark on Champagne being applied only to cheap Californian wines. I would rather suggest the following:
: Special storage and aging results in a wine with high CO2 contents, commonly known as sparkling wine. Based on the international trademark agreements included in the Treaty of Versailles 1918, only sparkling wine grown in the region of Champagne in France may be sold as Champagne. Other international denominations of sparkling wine include Sekt (Germany), Cava (Spain), Spumante or Prosecco (Italy).
Now I am not an expert, so I would like to have some feedback if this sounds okay to replace what is there or how to do it better.
Cheers
--Ernie 14:13, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: First, you are right that there is some POV that could usefully be excised, so go right ahead. I guess my comment would be that the term is undoubtedly confusing, and that confusion results in detriment to genuine Champagne, and that non-genuine Champagne is without exception of poorer quality, and that essentially the entire wine-producing world has agreed to stop using "Champagne" except the U.S. I'm an American, but from a practical standpoint our behavior is embarrassing. The U.S. could ban the name tomorrow with essentially no negative impact on anyone, including the producers of "California Champagne," but we choose not to because the TTB is basically in the pocket of the big wine producers. I don't rant at you, don't worry, but I think it's important to keep mention of the many objective negatives that accrue from using a fraudulent name. Wnissen 14:33, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I waited for about a week to give time for feedback on this and to give myself some time to consider it more carefully. No one responded to my queries, so I reworded the offending paragraph to leave in 'confusing' but to make the article less POV. Gregmg 23:04, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Champagne and regional names 

message: The external link to "Wine Dictionary, Glossary of Wine Terms" was added 07/25/05, reversed by EvilMonkey on 07/26/05, added back later on 07/26/05, and reversed again by Wnissen on 07/26/05 with the note "(Removing link to wine glossary - Sorry, the content should be incorporated, not linked to)". I have restored it again, this time with the note "(Restoring link again. Sorry, content is copyrighted & thus cannot be incorporated on Wikipedia, but is a worthwhile wine resource.)" Don't have any desire to start an edit war, but since this addition does not constitute vandalism and it observes Witiquette in every way, I believe it deserves to be there. Anonymous July 26, 2005 02:40 (UTC)
If it was desireable to link to a wine glossary, the vastly superior  version at Epicurious would be to the one to use, not a bare-bones version on some random travel site. I appreciate that reasonable people can differ on whether a link applies under the statement "High content pages that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article," however in this case the external link is only medium content, laden with commercial advertising, and being added repeatedly by an anonymous person. If the site were any good, wouldn't it at least be in Google? And, may I ask, do you have a personal connection with the site. Adding one's own sites is strongly discouraged. Wnissen 19:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to external resources

message: To me, it seems that the article is mostly about wine production and doesn't really seem to contain anything significant about wine "use". Is it all buried in some other link I can't spot or is this article as obsessed with grapes and name wars as all the other sources? ;)
:If you see something missing, by all means add it. A section on the use of wine, perhaps dealing with its place in our culture, use in religious practices, etc. would be an excellent addition to this article. Remember to "be bold" when contributing to Wikipedia. If the concensus is that you were too far off the mark, your edits will be corrected and revised as necessary.  Gregmg 03:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article balance / focus 

message: The section on non-alcoholic wine is just a teensy bit POV, what with calling it "inferior" and all.  I'm going to do a brief rewrite, but I'm not very studied in non-alcoholic wine; someone with more information (and some NPOV) should probably rewrite my rewrite.  --XkarlmagneX 13:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-alcoholic wine 

message: I am concerned about grape names listed in the wine varieties list. It is true that some grape manes cone be considered also names of whines, but alt last in the case of Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon i can't realy agree. Everywere in the world there are bottles made with this names on the etiquete.
Should'nt we remove at last these two (and mabe a few others) from the list?
--FaZ72 17:11, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your concerns and I do agree, at least to some extent. Since these varietals are produced everywhere, it's not quite accurate to associate a few regions and countries to them. However, in the States and elsewhere these varietal names are commonly used to designate varieties of wine. In fact, 'varietal' is defined as 'Of, indicating, or characterizing a variety, especially a biological variety'. Thus, to include these varietals under the variety subheading does seem appropriate. I suggest either removing the region and country names from these varietals, or segregating regional and varietal lists under the separate, existing subheadings. Gregmg 19:44, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  This seems reasonable to me. Since my knowledge is mainly in Italian wines, could someone with a beter international insight possibly make this changes? --FaZ72 23:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're right, this section is misleading. The term varietal is always used to specify the kind of grape. There should be a separate section devoted singularly to grape varietals, and another devoted to wine-growning regions. A third section should differentiate wine labelling conventions, e.g. French wines are typically labelled by appellation, while wines from California are typically labelled by varietal.
I have removed most of the edits of 65.50.41.255 21 September 2005 who has been adding Spain to most of the wines with names of grapes. I have done this not because I know for shure they are wrong, but because they seem added indiscriminately. If some of those i deleted are actualy typical spanish wines my excuses for this.
I have added Italy to Merlot, becaus 'Merlot delle venezie' is a very common and known Italian whine now.
The nations are in alphabetical order with de nation of origin of the grape (usualy France) first now.--FaZ72 19:45, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I think that is reasonable. Spain is known more for its traditional wines than for varietals. Almost every grape is now grown in many countries. This section should not try to be a list. Justinc 23:57, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Varieties 

message: At the moment the article at fine wine just points to wine.  Seems to me there is plenty more to be said on the subject.  Any takers?
:If you have any knowledge on the subject, please take a stab at it. Remember the directive to "Be Bold" in making edits on Wikipedia. Gregmg 14:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fine wine]] 

message: An anonymous user has expressed concerns on my talk page about my reversal of an an edit that listed Slovenia first in a list of countries producing collectable wines. I removed Slovenia because I couldn't find anything that suggested it should be featured so prominently. I wanted to make sure that this issue was reviewed by others, in case I'm off-base on this one, so I decided to include a reference on this talk page.  Gregmg 15:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree with you, but ask for references from them so it can be independently verified. Justinc 17:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Greg, I would not necessarily be so hasty. I think we can just look at auction catalogs to see which wines are genuinely collectible. Believe me, if Christie's thought there was a market for collectible Slovenian wines, they would not hestitate to auction them. For example, their latest catalog  shows wines from France, California, Italy, Australia, Spain, and Portugal, in descending order of number of lots. The most expansive list I can find does in fact include Slovenia. It is on , and lists Argentina, Australia, Austria, Canada, Chile, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, New Zealand, Portugal, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Ukraine, and the United States. It is worth noting that currently Slovenia, Canada, and Hungary each have only one wine listed, and the Ukraine has none. The rest have a half dozen or more. I realize that any such list is going to be contentious, and that Anglo-American bias is important to avoid, but it would be a failure to at least note some of the biggies. Probably half the collectible wine in the world is red Bordeaux, so that should at least merit a mention. Let's see if we can't hash out something that works. Wnissen 05:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slovenia and collectable wines 

message: I propose a new section on wine faults, as this is a common source of anxiety for people that buy wine (retail or in restaurants).
* Oxidation
** Acetaldehyde (rotten apple, sherry aromas)
** Acetic acid (vinegar smell)
** Ethyl acetate (nail polish remover, glue, or varnish smell), a.k.a. volatile acidity
* Sulfur
** Sulfur dioxide (matchstick smell)
** Hydogen sulfide (rotten eggs)
** Mercaptans (onion, rubber, or skunk), a.k.a. bottle stink
* Fungus/yeast
** Refermentation (prickle/fizz sensation not from carbonation, funky aromas)
** Brettanomyces (horsey, wet saddle, band-aids, rancid bacon), agreeable in small amounts
** Cork taint (cardboard, mustiness, wet dog)
----
:Sounds like a great addition to the article. Remember the Wikipedia directive... "Be Bold". Gregmg 21:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section (or article) on wine faults? 

message: I take the opinion that from wine's main page, links should only be made to articles discussing wine in various countries, from where you can go to any given region within that country, to any given wine. The heading "types of wine" is so vague and broad in its charactarization that possible additions to the list are infinite in number. Maybe I am alone here, but in this particular matter, I think a broad-to-specific approach is appropriate.
-The wine nut
:To me it seems that the article tries to accomodate the New World tendancy of thinking in terms of varietals and the Old World approach of appellations, while not forgetting wine types based on vinification methods. All in all it this works out pretty well, but there are a few shortcomings. Right now, white and red grapes are subsections below "By Taste". Red and white wines are then listed under "Types of wine". These grape and wine links duplicate a lot of the same links.  This article could benefit from a major overhaul, but I'm not sure where to start. If you have any ideas for how to improve it, remember the Wikipedia credo to Be Bold. Gregmg 03:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some issues with types of wine 

message: Isn't pinotage a variety of grape and a varietal wine rather than a "blended wine name" as indicated in the article? What am I missing?David Justin 03:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I can only find two references to Pinotage in the article. One indicates that it is from South Africa, and the other indicates that it is a hybrid of Pinot Noir and Cinsault. Both of these statements are true... am I missing something? Gregmg 03:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: My apologies... I didn't realize what you were referring to. Yes, it's preceeded by  the blended wine name introduction. I thought, but haven't been able to quickly confirm, that due to it's relatively recent invention, Pinotage had at least originally been protected by intellectual property laws. If this is true, then the text that preceeds it makes sense. Gregmg 04:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I concur. It seems that my recollection of the history was a bit off, but since I wasn't the original contributor of the text in question, I hadn't fully researched the subject. I believe that a paragraph or two concerning popular hybrids might be in order. Pinotage and Cabernet Sauvignon are two that quickly come to mind. I'm sure there are others. Gregmg 03:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pinotage

message: My read of 2005 Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27, Section 12.31 shows Bordeaux as a nongeneric name recognized as a distinctive designation, and Section 24.257 does not enumerate Bordeaux as a semi-generic name.
Thus, it appears to be a protected designation, and I will change the article to reflect this.  Please revert or modify if you disagree.  
I may also expand the list of semi-generics to be complete.
dpotter 03:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I updated the list of semi-generics, but it's not complete.  The next paragraph mentions that "all of these names are specific regions in Europe", so I left out semigeneric names that weren't also region names.  I opted not to include "Sauterne" since I believe it's an intentional misspelling of "Sauternes". dpotter 03:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bordeaux not semigeneric? 

message: There is a reference to the "typography of a vineyard" which, I'm assuming, should be "topography of a vineyard" and have changed the word accordingly; if typography is, indeed, correct, it requires further explanation.
:EmmetCaulfield, I'm certain you are correct. Thanks for the correction. Wnissen 14:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typography of a vineyard??? 

message: Have attempted a more nuanced treatment of wine's early history, including:
*Mention of grape domestication as this helps date large-scale wine production
*Mention of controversy surrounding analyis of wine residues. Identification of archaeological food/drink residues in in its infancy, with many interesting results that have not been replicated.
*I'm not aware of any evidence for the primacy of Georgia for either grape domestication or wine production. Have suggested a wider area of origin with reference to evidence for this.
*Have tidied up Egypt a little and will come back to this and Mesopotamia.
References added at the bottom for all this.
I also removed
Other early known evidence of a fermented wine-like drink is from the Chinese village of Jiahu dated from 6000 to 7000 BC . The wine, found in 16 buried jars, contained millet, rice, beeswax (from honey) and either hawthorn fruit or wild grape. A 3,000 year old bronze jar has also been unearthed, still containing a similar liquid wine. as this is clearly more relevant to alcoholic beverages or sake than an article that explicitly treats wine as made of grapes. 
Cheers! Mark Nesbitt 18:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History tidy-up

message: Have deleted text added by 81.159.142.250 as it's comes straight from , is wrong (wine cultivation in Lebanon at 6000 BC???), and doesn't cite any references. There's also no attempt to integrate the text into the structure of the article. Would welcome more info on the history of viticulture in Lebabon, though.
81.159.142.250 - please see guidelines at Wikipedia:Simplified Ruleset
Mark Nesbitt 08:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of copyright vio

message: Launched mediawiki sister site vinopinions.org with the purpose of structuring toward individual wines, and implementing open ratings application allowing for individual user/IP votes with averaged results (1-100 WS style ratings).
Wikipedians encouraged to become involved.
VinOpinions 21:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like it "doesn't pass muster per the external links guide", whatever that means.  And it looks like wine.wikicities.com also doesn't pass muster.  I thought that Wikipedia was a community encyclopedia, with people encouraged to add and edit.  If we start deleting people's additions because they don't "pass muster", then why should people try and add information?  I can understand discouraging blatent self-promotion, but if you're trying to share information and encourage others to share information, where are we supposed to go?  Or does Wikipedia want to be the end-all and be-all of online encyclopedias?  That's going to drive people away, not encourage them to participate.  Chadlupkes 16:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please review the External_links guide. Everyone is encouraged to edit articles, but ultimately the article should remain consistent with the various guides and policy articles. Presently, vinopinions.org doesn't appear to provide the quality or quantity of content that adds any value to the article. Perhaps that will change, and if it does, maybe the link will be included. It isn't for me or any other individual contributor to say what should or should not be linked to; the external links guide already does this. Please review this guide and let's discuss further.  Thanks. Gregmg 16:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The purpose of vinopinions.org forking off into another site is to augment, not detract, from wikipedia (as well as other wine information sites).  Firstly, we wish to allow for a public rating system requiring back-end applications outside the scope of wikipedia, and secondly, we wish to provide for a more accessible and consumer-oriented categorization of the database information (hierarchal navigation to information on individual wines being paramount). The purpose of posting the link as a work in progress was to encourage wikipedians to contribute.  I don't see how the link detracts from the page, nor why it would not abide by the spirit of the External_links guide as I've re-read it.  If I've stepped on someone's toes here, I apologize, and will not re-post the external link.  I will, however, point out that wikipedia is a collaborative, community effort. If a few people take it upon themselves to "sanitize" every entry to serve their own standards and/or motives, we will all lose this great resource.  In contrast, I would like to assure potential contributers that vinopinions.org has been created to celebrate a variety of opinions, rather than be the bastion of a few.  VinOpinions 02:23, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Encyclopedias inform, period. The links are there because they provide useful information, not to promote worthy causes. The appropriateness of a link has nothing to do with respect or disrespect of anyone's opinion, but rather its contribution to the content of the encyclopedia. Sorry to be so blunt. Wnissen 15:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Announcement: launch of sister site -- vinopinions.org 

message: So far this page has seen at least three unsupported claims for countries as the original home of wine: Georgia, Lebanon and Iran. For reason explained in the article and referenced at the bottom, it's impossible to point to any single country. All that can be said is that the earliest wine production must have started in areas growing grapes at or prior to 3000 BC, which means the Near East. Anywhere from Turkey to Georgia, the Levant to Iran. It's perfectly plausible that wine-maing started in all these areas at the same time - it's not a difficult process.
Well-researched info on the early history of wine-making, referenced to recent archaeological reports, would be very useful. Lets try and keep claims based purely on nationalism off the page. Mark Nesbitt 09:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Claims for the origin of wine

message: This seems to me an absolutely essential and obvious addition which I don't feel really qualified to make. Very obvious things would be its use in Passover (and other Jewish holidays?) and the Catholic/Orthodox Mass, as well as the wedding feast at Canah, but I'm pretty sure there is more than just that; does it have special significance in non-Judeo-Christian religions? Snowboardpunk
:There's a short paragraph about this at the end of the section on uses. Cana and the Eucharistic rites are covered; Passover and perhaps Purim (though i suppose one can get drunk on anything then) are not, nor are the rites of Dionysus, which are the first non-Judeo-Christian religious use that springs to mind. now they are.—Charles P._(Mirv) 15:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wine in Religion

message: China is, according to FAO stats, one of the 10 biggest wine producing nations in the world, which seems reason enough to add the country. China is also lacking from the wine producing countries entry, despite having a small but nevertheless 2,000 years old tradition of wine making. 213.89.48.107 19:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wine Spectator's  article, "China's Wine Revolution" (Nov. 30, 2005, pp. 60-85) is an excellent source of information.David Justin 02:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also lots of info in this Anthropology of Food article (on-line) Wine in ChinaBerox 21:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looking for China 

message: Is this vandalism or is this true? —This unsigned comment was added by Hedymiguel (talk • contribs) 10:19, 25 March 2006.
:It is a character seen in aged rieslings. See here. ◄§ĉҺɑʀκs► 00:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Petrol" character is a common problem, not only with riesling.--Symposiarch 10:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow.  Thanks for the links.  Good stuff. Hedymiguel 23:39, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Riesling & Petrol

message: The external links section is getting rather long, and several links don't appear to meet the criteria presented in the External links guide. I'll try to clean this up a bit over the next few days. What is and is not appropriate to include is always contentious; often because Wikipedia can drive a lot of traffic to obscure, privately run websites when a link is included in a high traffic article like this one. It can also be a matter of pride and prestige... bragging rights I guess, to have one's site linked to from within a Wikipedia article. Please take a moment to review the External links guide and some of the links in this article. It would be best if this were a group effort. Thanks, Gregmg 18:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The user had not been warned about spamming. As he added his links again today, I've removed them and added a message to his talk page. --GraemeL (talk) 12:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: If the title of this chapter is "Wine Producing countries", how come there is no information about wine production, but instead information about wine exporting countries?
::I have fixed this by creating a true 'Wine Producing countries' chapter that takes the 10 top listed countries in the linked article, and moving the old content to a new section called "Wine Exporting Countries" since this is what the content is about. Kickin' Da Speaker 00:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A user attempted to update the content of this chapter, but in italian, and without any source linked. Please list a source if you're going to replace the data, and only replace with more recent data.Kickin' Da Speaker 00:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3.1 Wine Producing countries listing Wine Exporting countries. 

message: The article states that the world's most northerly winegrowing area is in England.  I have found Blaxsta Vingård in Flen, Sweden, at Lat: 59:03:24N, Lon: 16:35:22E,  is further north than Leventhorpe Vineyards outside of Leeds, W.Yorks, England, at Lat: 53:45:49N, Lon: 1:26:10W.   I couldn't find wine being made further north in Canada.  If agreed, can this be changed?  Alan Davidson 06:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, go ahead. The information in question was only added recently. You seem to have found references to indicate the corrent information is incorrect, so make the change. --GraemeL (talk) 12:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most Northerly Winegrowing Area 

message: The history section of the article is severely lacking. I've tried to add a little info and structure, but I'm not a wine scholar. Haikupoet 02:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion request

message: Are there any informations about how many calouries are in wine? -- 88.73.180.224 05:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nutrition Facts

message: Europeans accuse americans of using sacharine massively to produce wines in chemical factory like equipment and they think these drinks should not be called wine but some kind of a "McDrink", because this has nothing to do with several millenia old wine culture. Such manufacturing practices would be criminally prosecuted in Europe under wine-purity laws. None of these are addressed in the article. 195.70.32.136 07:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My first thought was this anonymous user has been smoking crack since to the best of my knowledge no American winemaker has ever used Saccharin, the artificial sweetener, in wine. A search of Google   confirmed that no one has ever even accused an American winemaker of doing this. I took a look at the Saccharin Wikipedia article, and that cleared up my confusion... apparently this term has a usage that predates the modern artificial sweetener and it simply means "sweet". I'm guessing that the anonymous contributor above is accusing American winemakers of adding sugar to their wines. Wine production laws vary from state to state, but generally, states like California that produce a lot of wine have fairly restrictive laws. For example, I believe (and I welcome being corrected if I'm wrong) that in California it illegal to add sugar to wine, even though in some countries (France) winemakers may add sugar in cold years when grapes don't develop the proper Brix. So, in a nutshell, the issue referred to above has not been covered in this article because it doesn't exist. Gregmg 14:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: May I ask two questions? First, do you have a citation for such accusations, and second, where are you from (just curious)? American wines are all over the map quality-wise, but the best of American wines are as good as the best of any other country. There are a few extremely down-market wines that have artificial flavoring (Franzia and Peter Vella come to mind) but they aren't really representative. Honestly, I think such accusations are wine snobbery and possibly thinly veiled anti-Americanism; in any case, it's not like the Europeans don't tweak their wines as well (where New World wines adjust acid levels, European wines sometimes add sugar), and I do believe the French have a problem with too much low-grade vin ordinaire that nobody wants to buy. Quite honestly, the growing environment is different, so the vinification techniques have to change to get good results. Haikupoet 06:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is American wine really wine? 

message: Deserve a mention. Dfrg.msc  1 . 2 . 3 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corks 

message: Can someone please direct the links here to where they should go rather than disambiguation pages. I would, but I am not 100% sure which is the correct link. Examples include Central Coast and Walla Walla. Todd661 08:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wine#Wine names|Wine Names]]