Talk:Kit Carson/Archive 1

message: The American Civil War material on this page is pretty good, but wouldn't there be a better place for it than this biographical page?  Sdp 00:54, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Civil war material

message: Can someone verify that indeed "Carson ran for Governor of California but was defeated because of his anti-slavery views." as the article now says? - Murcielago 22:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Newly added -- and not in any of my source material.  WBardwin 01:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nor in mine; no mention of it in a cursory google search, either.  -- Murcielago 05:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source? 

message: Next “you” say: ++++++++His mission was to gather the Navajo together and move 
them to Fort Sumner on the Bosque Redondo Reservation. When the Indians refused to 
move and hid in the Canyon de Chelly, he began a merciless economic campaign 
destroying crops and lifestock, burning villages and killing people. 
In historical fact, Carson arrived at Ft. Defiance  where the Navajo were to assemble, 
on July 20, and none were there. Carson and his men spent the rest of 1862 and the 
first month of 1863 in 4 general scouts through the Navajo country, with not a single 
major confrontation. They did suceed in capturing some Indians, killing others and 
rounding up several hundred by Jan. For example, the Utes under Carson’ command 
had killed 12 Navajo by June 24 (Kelly, p. 28)
On Aug. 18, 1863, Carleton told Carson “all prisoners which are captured by the troops 
will be sent to Santa Fe....There must be no exception to this rule.”  That is, NONE are 
to be turned over to Utes as slaves!  Carleton added that all horses, mules and sheep 
“will be turned over to the Chief Commisary of your expedition” and “all other property 
captured from the Indians will be reported...”  Wanton slaughter was prohibited.
On Aug. 5, 1863, Carson left for his first extensive scount in to the Navajo country...
little was accomplished, a few Navajo were killed, some pisoners and stock were captured, 
and several fields were destroyed.” (Kelly,p 37)  Carson’s second scout began Sep. 9, 
lasted until Oct. 5. Sgt. Campbell, who was on this scout, said he saw Carson “reeling 
in his saddle from fatigure and loss of sleep, pushing forward and hoping to come upon” 
the Navajo. This was caused by Carson’ severe injury of 1860, and which would cause his 
death in early 1868.
On Sept 6, 1863, Gen. Carleton said he was sending captured Navajo (51 men, women and
children) to Ft. Sumner...that is, they would no longer be sent to Santa Fe. 
On Oct. 23, 1863, Gen. Carleton writes to Col. Carson: “all Navajos (who) come in of their 
own accord -- can bring with them, and take with them to the Bosque Redondo, all stock 
and other property of which they may be possessed. Stock will only be taken from those 
whom your parties may fall upon. Not from those who voluntarily surrender.”  (Kelly, p. 60-61)
Carson remained in Camp Oct. and Nov. 1863, and the scouting parties he sent out were
unable to find the Navajo. 
On Nov. 1, Carson petitioned Gen. Carelton for 2 months leave to go to Taos and be with his
pregnant (6th child) wife Josefa. He was turned down. 
On Dec. 5, Gen. Carleton told Carson by letter” “as soon as you have secured one hundred 
captive Navajo men, women and children...you will come with those captives” and be granted
leave. 
By late Dec. “sizeable groups of Navajo were beginning to surrender at Ft. Wingate... 
(including)  the headman Delgadito. By Jan. 1864, Delgatido has persuaded so many 
Navajos to surrender that he was permitted to take his family to Ft. Wingate and to 
remain in the field until such time as he chose to return to the Bosque” rez. (Kelly, p. 70-71.)
Carson’s third sojurn into Navajo land began in Nov., ended on Dec. 5th. Again, few
Indians were killed, some captured, some stock and grains confiscated. No big battles.
On Jan. 6, 1864, Carson went into Navajo land, reported 23 Indians killed, 34 prisoners 
captured, 200 voluntary prisoners and on Jan. 26, Carson took 240 Indians to an Army Ft.
on the Rio Grande and finally permitted to do so, went home to his wife and family in Taos. 
To describe these events, 6 months, as a “merciless campaign” is a bit extreme. Again,
“your” version is demolished with historical facts. Read all of Kelly, to page 102.
+++++++By destroying their food supplies, eventually he convinced the Navajos that going 
to the  reservation was the only way to survive. In 1864, the Navajos, among with some other 
tribes, a total of 8-9,000 people, began their move to Fort Sumner.
This is generally OK.....but more correct to say “the U. S. Army convinced the Navajos” etc.,
not just Kit Carson, as there were several other officers scouting  the Navajo country 
and rounding up Navajos during these six months, and they also “convinced the Navajo.”  So
not just “he” (Carson). About 7000 more Navajo escaped into the Arizona hinterlands and
NEVER saw Bosque Redondo...almost half the Navajo, therefore, did not go on Long Walk!!!!
Then “your” different take says” +++++Along the 300 miles trip to the camp, about 200 people 
died of cold and starvation. Many more people died after they arrived at the barren reservation. 
The original idea was that the Navajos would engage in agriculture at the reservation 
but because the land was unsuitable for raising crops and the people had no farming 
experience, the plan failed. Four years later, in 1868, partly as a recognition of their 
mistake, the US government allowed the people to return to their homeland. 
Gen. Carleton’s big mistake was thinking that the Bosque Redondo area could grow crops.
It did the first year, but the land soon became unsuitable, and Navajos starved. The U. S. 
built a Hospital there...not generally available at "concentration camps." Nonetheless,
Navajo young men were able to leave the rez and actually captured several hundred horses
from the Comanche Indians to the East of the Rez. 
And how utterly dumb to say the Navajo “had no farming experience.”  Rubbish, sir!
Once again, I reveal historical facts that demolish and dismiss the description you submitted.
Clearly, what you give is not “another take”, but a false accounting...a contrived lie! 
These facts I submit are 36 years old, found in books dated 1970 and 1972, 
readily available for those who seek the facts, but avoided by those who 
ignore facts and merely push their agenda(s).
	Finally, let me say I admire and respect all Indians, and the Navajo have much to be
proud of -- weaving (Navajo blankets are TOP of the line), sandpainting, property mgmt,
and as a WW II buff, I am so very pleased with their job as code talkers for the
U. S. Marines in battles with the Japanese, who I also admire and respect. But the Navajo
elders and their lackies must STOP telling lies about Kit Carson, and Wiki too. 
	There is no “neutral point of view” re Kit Carson...he was the great man of his times,
and Americans should be proud of his accomplisments, courage, loyalty, skills, character.
"Facts are stubborn things" said John Adams.  I give you facts!   
========================WHEN WILL WIKI CATCH UP TO THE TRUTH re Kit Carson?   -Caz
One of my old professors read most of what I've written here, and again chided me for
being too enthusiastic about my subject. 
He suggested I tell you to just "Be fair about Kit Carson."
Is that, in this day, radical enough for you gentlemen, you heirs of Ben Franklin?
-Caz
:Your professor sounds like a wise fellow.  Tell him we're all more than ready to do that.
:Why don't you just start adding the information you think is important to the article, citing your sources, in a just-the-facts sort of style?  I'm sure a lot of what you add will be uncontroversial, and whatever needs to be hammered out we'll hammer out. Nareek 03:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another thought

message: I approve of most of your editing, but as you say, I will have to hammer out some more changes for the sake of accuracy and fairness.  HOWEVER....
The sentence in the first paragraph on Carson should read that he "established himself as a trader and trapper in New Mexico, Arizona, California, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Montana and Idaho."  Why leave out these last 5 states?  Also, Kit Carson DID NOT LIVE WITH ANY INDIANS, but spent 10 years living in the wilderness with other trappers and traders. Finally, the name "Roper Thrower" was a name given him by some Navajo AFTER he rounded them up in 1863-1864...or "roped them in".  The Utes did not call him that, nor did the Pueblos.  I have finally been able to make these changes...I found the "edit" click at the top of the page, finally!
::Is the above info what you wrote me about?  Will be happy to weave it into the article as time permits -- but my week looks very busy.  If there is no "edit" opportunity, it does sound like you are having a system problem.  I'm no techie, but describe what happens and I'll either figure it out or contact one of the system people here for advice.  Moving this "thread of conversation"  to a new discussion section.  Best wishes.  WBardwin 22:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for editing help