Talk:List of Vanity Fair (British magazine) caricatures

message: Great idea. Keep up the good work :-) Drutt 19:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does a comprehensive list of cartoonists exist anywhere? The best I've found is this, though it's missing several names. Drutt 20:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that I know of - and that list is more comprehensive than the one I had! I think that this certainly needs incorporating into the page, and links to the artists providing as I have started doing. Richard.shakeshaft 20:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Excellent work. I'm slowly sorting through my collection of prints and will gradually tidy the article as I go. It may be helpful to break them up into yearly subsections for ease of editing. Drutt 14:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I see the problem: you would then lose the sortability of the list. I'm going to do the following: change date format from 10 Jan 1900 to 1900-01-10, so that the list sorts correctly (I'll write a script to do it automatically). Drutt 15:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you realised the sorting issue, as that was indeed the reason for uploading the data in one hit, although it does make for a large page. As for the date sorting, it appears to work ascending in the current format, but not descending. Maybe I should have tested it further before assuming dd mmm yyyy was the right choice... Sorry! Richard.shakeshaft 17:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed the date format. Next thing (I know nothing about wiki sort tables): is there a way of (eg.) sorting "John Smith" as "Smith, John"? Drutt 18:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great stuff (and for the additions!). I don't think there's a way of sorting as you would like without reformatting the data. I did consider this, but I felt that it was more useful to be able to see who the person was. Personally, I envisaged the sorting being of most use for the date of publication and the artist as the standard 'search' function would find the subject of the cartoon. Richard.shakeshaft 21:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: Do we know who HCO (or HLG, HCG--difficult to be sure) was? Drutt 19:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at present... but I'll add it to the list of outstanding questions. I have realised that the list of artists (based on the URL you found) needs to be updated to include the other artists listed in the table. Richard.shakeshaft 21:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HCO? 

message: It's great to see the page developing and people taking an interest! Thanks, Drutt, for all of the work you're putting into it with the links, adding some of the missing data, and tidying up what seem to be numerous errors in my original data! Richard.shakeshaft 21:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, nearly done now. Just a few loose ends to tie up. Drutt (talk) 01:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Encouragement! 

message: I don't get it. Isn't this page Original Research? Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 08:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand, are you referring to the speculation about the identity of "Drawl"? Drutt (talk) 13:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research? 

message: In order to simplify and reduce the size of the article I've moved the introduction and external links to Vanity Fair (magazine, historical), and the list of artists to Vanity Fair artists. Drutt (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: The following editions appear to have several prints associated:
*1881-12-07 Parnell and Dillon / Gladstone and Bradlaugh 
*1901-01-31 Provost of Eton / Queen Victoria 
*1905-05-25 Roberts / Stevenson
*1906-09-05 Loder / Gant
*1909-10-06 Shackleton / Lunn
*1909-12-23 Tennant / Carlile
*1909-12-30 Harris / Vickers
*1910-01-06 Barker / Belilios / du Cros / Younger
*1911-06-21 King George / Brown
Drutt (talk) 19:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple prints 

message: As an aside, I've come across a couple of pictures produced by Leslie Ward for The World: Duncan McKinnon and the Duke of Rutland. Drutt (talk) 23:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, Captain Scott in 1910 Drutt (talk) 01:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Here's another: Lloyd-George, 1909 Drutt (talk) 05:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the London newspaper/magazine/journal edited and founded by Edmund Yates, the red link on that page (and from the VF list) goes to The World (journal). From  "Edmund Yates was an English novelist, and he founded The World, a weekly society newspaper in 1874." There are more details in  but it seems likely the paper went under when Yates was imprisoned for libel in 1885. Judging from what I've read though it looks like a newspaper deserving its own article... if we could only find enough info. /Lokal_Profil 13:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The World

message: Is the lady pictured in the 1869-02-20 print Mary Ann Starr or Susan Mary Saurin? I suspect the latter. Starr seems to have been a rather unpopular figure, and is unlikely to have been made the subject of a sympathetic caricature. Drutt (talk) 20:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've since managed to get hold of a copy of the text of this print and can confirm it is Starr. Drutt (talk) 01:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mrs Starr

message: *Print numbers are not listed
*Many series numbers remain undetermined; there are also some contradictions in the numbering (eg. two Sovereigns 08) 
*The horse portraits Cyllene, Sceptre/Maid of Corinth and Santry need dating
*There are many gaps after 1912; I don't know which of these represent missing prints
*Individuals featured in several of the double-page group pictures need to be identified (1883-11-27, 1886-11-30, 1887-12-06, 1891-12-05, 1894-12-06, 1896-06-11, 1896-11-26, 1897-06-03, 1898-12-01, 1899-11-23, 1901-11-28)
*Many prints are unsigned, and/or their artists unknown
*The caption of 1905-10-19 (Bowles) is incomplete
Drutt (talk) 21:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unresolved issues 

message: I have made heavy use of redirects in order to keep this page at a reasonable size. Please do not replace them with direct links to the articles. Drutt (talk) 08:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirects 

message: Editors have begun adding links to images in the article. This is relevant and useful, but also has the potential to make the article unacceptably large. It may be better to add such links to individual articles, but many of the caricatured individuals do not have (and may not deserve) their own articles. How should this situation be handled? Drutt (talk) 02:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone has begun adding inline images; by a rough calculation, this will add 150kb to the page. Drutt (talk) 05:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am that "somebody". And I agree that it's a dumb idea as it stands, because as you say the page size will balloon unacceptably, even with just links rather than thumbnails. But the list does need links to the images to be useful, as, as has been said, many individuals may not have their own article or the article may not include the caricature. Also, I would think some viewers would only want to locate and view a particular image. I had considered breaking up the list into separate lists such as by year, but that negates the sort by date feature and is a problem if the viewer doesn't know which years to look for. Are we back at the start, with leaving out links to images in the interests of speeding up the list download ? As i see it, a major advantage of adding a link of some sort to the image is that this page acts as a register of which images are on Wiki and which still need to be sourced... there are enough sources online to actually build the entire collection on Wiki.. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 08:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Various sites online with decent images. None are complete, but together I think provide most : 
* http://www.flickr.com/photos/26746018@N03/tags/vanityfair
* http://www.darvillsrareprints.com/vanityfairhome.htm
* http://angloboerwarmuseum.com/Boer91l_pastdis_vanity.html
* http://www.OldImprints.com
* http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/saction.php?search=ss&firstRun=true&sText=vanity+fair
* http://www.oldprintgallery.com
* http://iris.lib.virginia.edu/rmds/vanityfair/
* http://www.sebraprints.com.au
* http://www.lordprice.co.uk
* http://www.vanity-fair-prints-company.com
* http://www.goantiques.com
* http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/picturescatalogue?action=PCSearch&mode=search&attribute2=Aggregation&term2=BIB&op1=AND&attribute1=any+field&term1=vanity+fair
* http://www.flickr.com/photos/26746018@N03/sets/72157605554051728/with/3511097504/
They are all really just thumbnails but good enought to illustrate the subject, and are all Public Domain by age  (except Sickert who won't be PD outside the US until 2013) - people can buy the real thing if they are interested, so by using these images we are helping the providers by bringing people to their websites - a win-win swituation IMHO. I still feel the list of Caricatures needs to be shorted - HTML was never intended to cope with such large pages, and as it stands is really unusable for folks on phone connections. But how to break it up while retaining the great sort feature ??? regards, Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 11:34, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

text: One workaround is to use redirects rather than direct links, so that, for example, the page links to HL Grosvenor instead of Hugh Grosvenor, 1st Duke of Westminster. Can this be done for images as well? Drutt (talk) 10:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Another workaround is to create a mirror of this page on Commons where you do include the images. That way anyone browsing Wikipedia should be able to open this page as normal (independent of bandwidth) but has the option of going to the Commons page if they want to see the images as well. That the page is huge on Commons is not a problem since no one browsing Commons should ever be surprised by huge pages. /Lokal_Profil 12:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Started working on such a page here ./Lokal_Profil 11:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Incidentally, do you know where to place this print. The name appears to be "D.M. Gant". It doesn't show up in any of the lists I've seen. Drutt (talk) 10:11, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

text: It's taken from Matthews & Mellini. Drutt (talk) 20:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to Images 

message: The information I have added to the following articles
*Vanity Fair (magazine, historical)
*Vanity Fair artists
*List of Vanity Fair caricatures
Was taken from the following sources
*E. Harris & R. Ormond, Vanity Fair: An Exhibition of Original Cartoons (London: National Portrait Gallery 1976) 
*R. Matthews & P. Mellini, In ‘Vanity Fair’ (London: Scolar Press 1982)
*L. Ward, Forty Years of 'Spy' (London: Chatto & Windus 1917)
Drutt (talk) 02:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Which conference is being parodied in the 1913-12-10 print? Drutt (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Possible the London Conference of 1913, with "Collapse" referring to its failure to prevent the Second Balkan War. But I don't know the significance of the dates June 17 and November 10. Rcbutcher (talk) 05:34, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Collapse of the Conference"

message: As far as I understand, he worked in the US and sent over caricatures for publication in Vanity Fair... normally, US works published before 1923 are now PD. But is that PD status global or just in the US ? The way I see it, his work is still under copyright in the UK, i.e. the place of first publication, under the life + 70 years rule. The way I see it, I can only upload his Vanity Fair stuff to EN wiki as PD-US, not to Commons. Is this correct ? Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 13:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds correct. The same thing probably applies to Jean de Paléologue ("PAL") as well (American but publishing in France and Britain). /Lokal_Profil 14:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Does that mean we need to remove PAL's stuff from Commons ? Such as the Leslie Ward caricature ? Rcbutcher (talk) 14:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably. I've intended to open a deletion nomination on them but haven't got around to it yet. I've tried to create a list at :commons:User:Lokal_Profil/Test#Artists with info on the artists and licensing issues. /Lokal_Profil 11:42, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that... I've added explanations to both the EN and Commons categories so hopefully people will understand why they are in 2 different places.. I am uploading to either depending on death date of author if known. Authors which still remain anonymous I will asume meet the "70 years after publication" rule and hence may be uploaded to Commons. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 12:40, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For those only known under pseudonyms  should apply (or now that I've looked closer at it  might be better). For those whose name is known but year of death isn't (including those with only "active" years) I'm less sure. It might be worth an enquiry at Commons talk:Licensing to make sure these are ok. /Lokal_Profil 15:18, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For the images uploaded to en.wiki use  that way it clearly shows that it shouldn't be uploaded to Commons and additionally it automatically changes when going out of copyright. Especially useful for "GDG" whose works go out of copyright next year. BTW feel free to add details to the artist list at Commons (linked above) if you find any additional info. /Lokal_Profil 15:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you flagged :File:Heavy Brigade.jpg for deletion, on the grounds that Giles died in 1941 i.e. less than 70 years ago. But if this was published before 1923 it is PD in the US and hence can be uploaded to the en wiki. The work was painted in 1880 and presumably many editions were published before 1923 as this was prime British Empire stuff. So I don't understand why it should be deleted. ?? Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 08:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[James Montgomery Flagg]] (died 1960) copyright status regarding Vanity Fair ?

message: Is this in fact the same person as John Lawrence Toole? /Lokal_Profil 02:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, "The Spelling Bee" was one of his shows : See http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/john-lawrence-toole/reminiscences-of-j-l-toole-volume-1-loo/page-15-reminiscences-of-j-l-toole-volume-1-loo.shtml
... Laurence appears to be the correct spelling, based on documents of the time returned by searches. Rcbutcher (talk) 06:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've fixed the link here and on the image page. /Lokal_Profil 16:08, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mr John Laurence Toole, "A Spelling Bee" 

message: Please forgive if this is the wrong place to ask, but I wonder whether anyone who knows how to go about these things could upload an image of Edward Jenkins (MP) (1838–1910)? He's in the list of caricatures dated 1878-08-31, but I can't find any caricatures of him on Commons. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Done ! Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 06:15, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That was quick!  Thanks, Rod. Nice work. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:12, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edward Jenkins (MP) 

message: How sure are we that the 1878-09-07 print is of Lord Kensington? Other sources (e.g. uk parliment) seem to indicate it was Earl of Londesborough. Which also agrees with the image in that article and the caricature , and aparently he was a conservative whip . Just wanted to check here before uploading under either of the names. /Lokal_Profil 15:42, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Both men have beards and are described as 'whips' but Kensington is 7 September and Londesborough is 19 October. Drutt (talk) 16:38, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: True. Sorry about that, must be getting tired. /Lokal_Profil 21:27, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  1878-09-07 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:29, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Addendum: I seem to recall that the US Vanity Fair published caricatures in the 1930s, but of actors and whatnot.
The corresponding Artists page does not at present use the "British magazine" qualifier.
Varlaam (talk) 15:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move?