Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements

message: In the Lead section, it says "County: use the ceremonial county (England, Wales and Northern Ireland only)".
I think it would better reflect current use if it said something like:
County: Use the county (ceremonial county in England) when not clear from the administrative district. Omit for Scotland and Wales.
This achieves two things.
* It doesn't ask for "ceremonial counties" for places in Wales. Outside the administrative county of Gwynedd, few of the articles I looked at mention a preserved county at all outside the infobox.
* It doesn't use the phrase "ceremonial county" in relation to Northern Ireland. The articles I checked do list a county in the lead, but don't refer to the 8 lieutenancy areas directly.
Does this sound sensible?
Aoeuidhtns (talk) 20:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceremonial counties in Northern Ireland and Wales 

message: Could we include somewhere in this guide a reminder that the  template should be given the parameters "|region:GB_type:city".  TBH I'm not quite sure what benefit the "city" has (and yes, even the smallest settlement comes under "city" here), but the "GB" means that someone clicking on the coordinates to get the "Geohack" page is then shown GB-specific maps such as OS, as well as international ones, so it's very helpful for the reader. It will also usually need "|display=inline,title" if in the infobox, or "|display=title" if free-standing, to ensure that the coordinates appear at the top of the article. PamD 22:25, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that "type:city" specifies a city-sized zoom level when you select a map. It can also specify which icon to plot on a map. See :Template:coord#type:T.  Dr Greg  talk  01:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Co-ordinates 

message: New awards of city status
When a town is awarded city status, the article will need to be revised. There are some important points to must be borne in mind:
# City status does not exist until the Letters Patent have been signed by the Monarch, sealed with the Wafer Seal and delivered to the relevant local authority. Any prior announcements, even by the Prime Minister in Parliament, are not relevant: they may be noted in the body of the article but the settlement is not yet a city.
# For legal and technical reasons, the Letter is addressed to the local authority (typically a Borough Council).  The text of the standard form of the letter declares that it is a specific town that is being declared henceforth to be a city. When the Letter has been delivered, the article may be changed to say "city" unless reliable sources make clear that an exception appliesfor example in the case of Brighton. 
# Per WP:AGEMATTERS, any otherwise highly reliable sources that describe the settlement as a "town" may be ignored in this respect if they predate the award.
# A widely practised convention is for the Borough concerned ("Borough of Camford", say) to rename itself "City of" (as in "City of Camford"). This has no legal status, Nevertheless and despite this lack of de jure foundation, Wikipedia may reflect this de facto usage when a reliable source reports it.
*Collins refers to the settlement being a city in such district rather than the district having city status so I'd say with Colchester the best wording is "Colchester is a city and unparished area in the Colchester district, in the county of Essex, England". Even though neither the settlement or unparished area holds the city status. Same with Lancaster. Note that the district probably should be called "Lancaster" rather than "City of Lancaster" as its name is just "Lancaster" even though "City of Lancaster" is natural disambiguation sometimes used in legislation. Crouch, Swale (talk)  20:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 1 (Draft text for new guidance)

message: ::"Colchester is a city in Essex, England" is what it should be. Going into unparished areas and districts in the first 10 words is unnecessarily complicated and immediately raises questions of what an unparished area is and what this "Colchester District is" only to find it's a link to an article called... "City of Colchester". Koncorde (talk) 15:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, keep it short and to the point. I had worded that 'Colchester is a city and administrative centre of the wider City of Colchester district' in keeping with other articles. Goom80 (talk) 19:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm growing to dislike the "administrative centre" statement. It kind of makes sense in the governance section, or in context in the lede with changes in parish, civil and borough etc but wedged into the lede feels more and more peacock'y as time drags on and still conflates the two things. If we should mention it it should be less repetitive and wooden sounding. Koncorde (talk) 20:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So, do you propose the wording: Colchester is a city in Essex, East of England. Should there be a mention that it's part of the wider City of Colchester district to link to that page? Goom80 (talk) 21:37, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Mentioning it should either be in second paragraph along with common things like historic boundaries / counties / boroughs / parish and / or in the governance sections. Koncorde (talk) 22:07, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

text: It's tricky, because although Collins phrases it so it's definitely the metropolitan district of Salford which holds city status (as explanatory note 4 at the bottom of this order states). Incidentally, Britannica gets itself in a right muddle over Winchester 'cathedral town', so we're not the only ones battling with this. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:57, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Was going to call this out, most city districts don't even have the word city in their formal district name - only the two city counties (London, Bristol) and Kingston upon Hull do. The council name for them are a different story however. The Equalizer (talk) 23:09, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 1 discussion

message: It's quite easy to get caught up in definitions when dealing with topics like this, so I'd like to propose a guideline which ignores the precise details:
:In the United Kingdom city status can be granted to areas of varying size, from compact urban areas (e.g. Stirling) to large districts which include towns and villages outside their core urban area (e.g. City of Lancaster). 
:When city status has been granted to an area which includes multiple settlements we should be guided by common usage reliable sources when deciding whether or not to refer to a particular settlement within that area as a city. For example, although Lancaster, and Morecambe, and Carnforth are all both in the City of Lancaster district only the former is referred to as a city in reliable sources. We should therefore refer to Lancaster as a city but Morecambe and Carnforth as a towns. Reliable sources should be ignored where they predate the award of city status (see WP:AGEMATTERS)
:When a local authority has been awarded city status and renamed itself 'City of [Settlement]' this name can act as a WP:NATURAL disambiguation between the articles about the settlement and local authority.
I would also support the creation of a more detailed explainer of city status to act as a reference for interested editors, but I don't think the guideline necessarily needs to get into letters patent and the like. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:58, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Would anyone object if I put the above up for general discussion at WT:UKGEO? Any final thoughts, positive or negative?  A.D.Hope (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes this makes sense, agree with the test and the suggestion for general discussion. Crouch, Swale (talk)  21:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

text: No objections from me. Well done on this, I think it covers pretty much everything we've discussed and is nice and clear. WaggersTALK 10:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal 2

message: The discussion here now seems to be going around in circles with little progress being made, so I've opened a new discussion at the main project talk page with the aim of broadening participation, getting some new opinions, and hopefully reaching a wide consensus. The discussion covers:
* The guideline
* Reliable sources
* Whether urban areas within city districts should be considered cities.
In my opinion we should exercise restraint when participating in the new discussion, as the point is to encourage input from other editors rather than repeat the debate here. Thank you all for your input and let's see how things play out! A.D.Hope (talk) 10:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving to main talk

message: Can a mention of WP:CORNWALLGUIDELINE be added to #Lead? So  or something? DankJae 13:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cornwall