Talk:Moldovan language/Archive 7

message: I think that what User:Danutz proposed ( caused by the Romanian Academy reform of the Romanian language orthography in 1993) is good and it worths to be put in text. Anyway it must be recognized that in both countries both system works in parallel. I've seen governmental institutions, and many media institutions from Moldova that use the reformed system. I think that User:Garzo didn't pay too much attention when he was reverting the text.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 22:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how important that is. I would not rush putting that. The article is already tilting a bit too much towards the Romanian version of things. No need to emphasize in each and every way that Moldavian is the same as Romanian. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It must be also remarked that before 1945 in Romania was used â rule. So, the 1990s orthographic reform was in fact a return to the situation before the World War II. However it is fact that are the same isn't it? So if it is emphasized I see no problem since they are identical.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 10:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is Romanian issues, belongs on the romanian language page, not here. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 17:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Well...Moldova was part of Romania isnt't it? They used romanian isn't it? So, it belongs here also.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 18:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This should be added

message: Weasel words are against Wikipedia policy. Dpotop reverted my edits where I removed weasel words.
Bonaparte accused me of making changes without consensus. Consensus is totally irrelevant when the contents of the page violate policy. Now, I'm going to say this:
# Do each of you agree, or do you not, that the phrases I removed were weasel words? If you don't, please justify with an explanation. (for definition of weasel words, see WP:AWT) If not weasel words, they were passages which I found inaccurate and for which there was not and still is no source.
# If you agree that the phrases removed were in violation of policy, do you have some other reason you think they shouldn't be replaced?
Now, in the past, I've raised such an issue of weasel words and there has never been any definitive conclusion. That needs to happen. Although these are clearly weasel words ("most...", "a number of...", etc. are classic examples of weasel words), Dpotop and especially Bonaparte seem to disagree with me removing them. Now, does anybody have any policy-based objection to their removal? I remind you that if they violate policy, their removal is justified, so you guys need to show why they don't violate policy.
--Node 10:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policy 

message: It's true that Ureche only hinted at Moldavians and Wallachians being one people and their language being the same. The one who went further to say that they are the same people, speaking the same language, was Miron Costin. Therefore, Ureche's name should be replaced with Miron Costin's name. Keep in mind that Ureche also hinted at the same theory and he was the first to write it down, so I think his name is worthy to be mention. I also think that Dimitrie Cantemir, who approved of Miron's thoughts, and who strengthened the theory, should also be mentioned. --Anittas 12:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Anittas, what Mikkalai, myself, and Iulian are looking for here are quotes. Give us the quotes from Ureche. And what you may interpret as "hinting at", somebody else may interpret differently. After all, if he had an opinion, why didn't he just write it as he thought it was? --Node 12:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grigore Ureche 

message: This is the (n+1) times when this quy Node alias Mark Williamson makes unilateral changes. I repeat one more time and maybe for the last time: YOU DID NOT REACHED CONSENSUS and nobody agrees with you. You are alone in your position and as I said before you are just making an edit war here. In the last 3 days you've made more then 9 edits and no person agreed with you! It seems to me that you don't care and you're not even trying to reach an consensus here. Don't worry we have a solution for this kind of guys.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 14:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Bonaparte, your constant whinging certainly isn't helping anything. You still have the opportunity to express above why you think those phrases aren't weasel. But you never did. So hold your mouth until you do, because weasel words are against the rules, even if everybody at the article likes them a lot. --Node 16:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will ignore this personal attack. You seem pretty stressed by the way lately.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 18:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How is that a personal attack? You are whinging. "Weasel words" is an official term, see WP:AWT. It's not an insult. --Node 19:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're not the only one to ignore that comment. A certain SySop also ignored it. --Anittas 18:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I know. But I just hope that this guy will withdraw his remarks...Otherwise... Bonaparte  talk & contribs 19:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Otherwise we will start with obscene jokes again? I suggest that this time you ignore this rather unpleasant comment at your address. And Node ue, can you please try to use better wording to express your point of view? Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 19:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The (n+1) times when Node alias Mark Williamson makes unilateral changes 

message: Dear Bonaparte, it's time we fined the good citation(s) from Ureche/Costin/Cantemir. Can you find it? For Ureche, "Letopisetul tarii moldovei" is online. I cannot find "De neamul moldovenilor, de unde sunt ", can you find it in a local library, and read it?
Maybe the best is Cantemir's "Hronicul vechimii a romano-moldo-vlahilor" where it's written:  „...neamul moldovenilor, al munteni­lor, al ardelenilor, care cu toţii cu un nume de obşte români se cheamă... Noi, moldovenii, la fel ne spunem ro­mâni, iar limbii noastre nu dacică, nici moldovenească... ci românească"Dpotop 15:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will. It will be found for sure.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 15:46, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Bonaparte 

message: I have said this before but my message was ignored.
* I think that our job is to present facts and let people decide for themselves if Moldovan is really a language or not. The current article is not balanced. This is not at all about what “Romanians would like the article to say” but in its current form the article has major shortcomings. For starters the article fails to be politically correct. 
Let’s take the introduction as an example:
Moldovan (Latin alphabet: limba moldovenească, Cyrillic alphabet: лимба молдовеняскэ, sometimes translated into English as "Moldavian") is an Eastern Romance language, the official language of Moldova and one of the official languages of Transnistria.
*Automatically the article suggests to the reader that “Moldovan is a language”. To me this seems very unprofessional. The question of Moldovan being a language is still up for the reader to decide. Secondly this article does not make any differentiation between the Moldovan in Latin script in Moldova and the one in the Cyrillic script in Transnistria. 
What the article should read is:
*Moldovan((Latin alphabet: limba moldovenească, Cyrillic alphabet: лимба молдовеняскэ, sometimes translated into English as "Moldavian")  is the official name of the state language of the Republic of Moldova and in its Cyrillic script, one of the official languages of the sepparatist self-proclaimed republic of Transnistria.
That my fellow Wikipedians is politically correct. I do not mean to insult anyone or to accuse anyone of not properly formulating the introduction, however we should keep in mind that this is an Encyclopedia and facts should be presented as they are. Now I do not know how many people are actual Moldovans here or how many people have traveled to the Republic of Moldova to see the situation there firsthand. Its one thing to stay behind a computer drinking coffee (in the USA, Canada, Germany, Russia, Belarus, Romania, etc.) and write what you might think Moldova is. It’s another thing to have actually familiarized yourself with the situation there. Government as well as media almost exclusively refer to the language as “State Language”, in order not to seem like they take sides (usually people who call it Romanian are unionists and those who call it Moldovan are communists). 
*We should respect this term that is used in the independent Republic of Moldova and we should make more use of it here. Another thing is that the president of Moldova himself, Mr. Vladimir Voronin has stated that “even though Moldovan might not necessarily be different from Romanian, Moldovans may reserve the right to call it Moldovan and Romanians, Romanian”. I do not have a scholarly article on this. I saw this on a TV channel. 
Having said that, let’s go over some more details about the introduction:
The Moldovan language, in its official form, is considered by certain experts to be nearly identical to the Romanian language[2], although a minority disputes this (esp. Vasile Stati). The original classification of Moldovan as a language independant of Romanian by the Soviet Union, and the ongoing debate over whether this distinction in language standards should be discarded, are both closely tied to regional politics. The primary differences between Moldovan and Romanian are the alphabets used to represent them and Russian language influences on spoken Moldovan.
This is not only politically incorrect but also factually wrong.
What is the term “nearly identical” supposed to mean? And what is the meaning of “non-official form of Moldovan” as supposed to this “official form” mentioned here? Maybe what it is meant is “literary form”?  If we would like this article to be of some value we should be very clear about our wording. Secondly “it is not considered by certain experts” but rather by most experts. Even Stati has said that written Moldovan is identical (notice how he said identical not nearly identical) to Romanian. Another thing, Russian influences are almost next to none in the villages. Influences are rather more prominent in the Chisinau slang.
This part should read:
The Moldovan language in its literary form is considered by most experts to be the same as the Romanian language” A minority of scholars, headed by Vasile Stati argues nevertheless that spoken Moldovan is somewhat different. The original classification of Moldovan as a language independent of Romanian by the Soviet Union, and the ongoing debate over whether this distinction in language standards should be discarded, are both closely tied to regional politics. The primary differences between Moldovan and Romanian are the alphabets used to represent them and Russian language influences on the spoken Chisinau-slang of Moldovan.
Now for the last phrase in the introduction:
"Moldovan" (limba moldovenească or graiul moldovenesc) can also refer to the speech of the historical region of Moldavia in Romania.
There is not one single person in the historical region of Moldovan in Romania that would refer to the language as “limba moldoveneasca”. This is exclusively a “grai”( a form of speech-but not a dialect) and it is part of the same “grai” as the Moldovan grai in the Republic of Moldova.
This sentence should read:
* “Moldovan" (graiul moldovenesc) can also refer to the speech of the historical region of Moldavia in Romania.
*I would also like to draw the attention to the “estimated 1.2 mil” people that speak “Moldovan”.  This is quite wrong since there are no statistics yet released that would show such a number. It is true that Moldovan newspapers have stated that 60% of the native population has mentioned “Romanian as official language”  but one should understand that , firstly, the census in the RM was very politicized and secondly, the rural population may refer to the language as Moldovan without necessarily suggesting that it is different the Romanian. I have come across a number of villagers in the RM who said “Moldovan or Romanian, whichever term you may like”. 
*The 1.2 mil people has no basis, does not appear in any newspaper, scholarly article, etc. etc. and for the time being it should be replaced with an estimated percentile such as “estimated 33% of the Moldovan population”. 
Lastly the article should talk about the “Moldovan language in Transnistria” ( which is still written in Cyrilic and which is called alike “Shantista/ Şantistă” by Romanians and Moldovans alike.
Constantzeanu 21:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bravo! Bravo Constantzeanu! -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 21:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I definitely like the first paragraph. Now, I am not sure about the part "The primary differences between Moldovan and Romanian are the alphabets used to represent them and Russian language influences on the spoken Chisinau-slang of Moldovan." From what I know we use the Latin script in Moldova, as in Romania. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrections 

message: Hey! This guy is just making trolling don't you see? He never agrees to make a compromise, he is alone in his position, he is just making trolling. And you know how to deal: Don't feed the troll! -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 08:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Trolling of Node

message: Hey! This kid had finally recognized he is wrong and he made mistakes! Can we forgive him? -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 08:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mark admits he is wrong!

message: Since this kid is the only one in his position and he makes a revert war as you see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moldovan_language&diff=30023630&oldid=30018998) we have two solutions:
*We protect the page against revert war and try to solve problems here, but as I sow this 
*We block the trolling guy who is User:Node ue there are enough proofs that all that he is making is trolling, revert wars, and so on...
-- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 08:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection

message: Cea mai veche marturie ramane numele insusi al romanilor, acelasi la toate trei ramurile nord-dunarene - de altminteri, in ciuda variantelor fonetice (armani, rumeri), acelasi si pentru urmasii sud-dunareni ai romanitatii orientale. Moldoveni, munteni sau transilvaneni, toti si-au zis de la obarsie romani si si-au numit limba pe care o vorbeau limba romaneasca. Miron Costin nu e decat un martor tarziu cand afirma in De neamul moldovenilor: “Asa si neamul acesta de carele scriem, al tarilor acestora, numele vechiu si mai direptu este ruman, adica ramlean, de la Roma. Acest nume de la discalecatul lor de Traian... tot acest nume au tinut si tin pana astazi si inca mai bine muntenii decat moldovenii, ca ei si acum zic si scriu tara sa «rumaneasca», ca si romanii cei din Ardeal”. Iar mai departe, dupa ce discuta numirile lor sau cele date de straini, conclude: “Macara dara ca si la istorii si la graiul si streinilor si in de sine cu vreme, cu veacuri, cu primenele au si dobandescu si alte numere (=nume), iara cele carile ieste vechiu nume sta intemeat si inradacinat: ruman”. 
Acelasi lucru si despre limba: “...macara ca ne raspundem acum moldoveni, iara nu intrebam: «stii moldoveneste»?, ce «stii romaneste», adica ramleneste...”.
Miron Costin punea astfel si problema numirii unitate a limbii - nu exista o limba moldoveneasca, sau munteneasca sau ardeleneasca -, dar si aceea a numelor de caracter local, de diferentiere in masa romaneasca, pornind de la valea unei ape, de la un tinut, de la o “tara”, in vechea acceptiune a termenului: moldovean, vrancean, oasean (din Oas), oltean (care poate fi si transilvanean de pe valea Oltului).
Ca numele general al romanilor e mai vechi decat numirile locale, ca acesta este numele originar, se intelege de la sine, si cu atat mai lesne daca tinem seama de sensul lui. In fapt ei nu si-au dat acest nume la aparitia lor in istorie. Au continuat pur si simplu sa se numeasca asa cum se numisera inaintasii lor, protoromanii - daca e sa distingem asemenea etapa - si, mai departe, populatia romanica, pe baze autohtone, din care se trageau. Altminteri, ar fi lipsit de sens sa ne inchipuim ca numele general ar fi venit dupa cele particulare: adus sau impus de cineva, in absenta oricarei cuceriri, a oricarei dominatii a unui grup asupra celorlalte? Nici forma de roman, alaturi de cea frecventa de ruman, nu e o inventie de carturari in cautarea afirmarii origini romane. De altfel, si daca n-ar fi fost asa, lucrurile nu s-ar schimba cu nimic. Cat despre vechimea termenului ruman pentru denumirea categoriei taranilor dependenti, cercetarile mai noi au adus dovezi care pledeaza pentru folosirea lui din veacul al XVI-lea, in orice caz nu cu mult mai devreme. Oricum, este o acceptiune derivata - in conditii, e drept, nu inca suficient explicate - a termenului originar. Situatia inversa nici nu ar fi, de altminteri, de conceput.
Mai vechi decat atestarile numelui pe care si-l dadeau romanii insisi sunt cele ale numelui care li-l dau strainii, acela de valahi, in diferite variante: vlahi, blachi, olachi, volohi etc. S-a lamurit de mult ca termenul acesta a fost imprumutat de slavi de la germani si transmis apoi de acestia bizantinilor si maghiarilor. El devine termenul general - pana atunci cand strainii il cunosc sau se decid sa-l foloseasca pe cel de roman - cu care romanii sunt indicati in izvoarele europene. Ceea ce e remarcabil este ca acest nume constituie oarecum o traducere a celui de roman, el aplicandu-se in formele lui originare romanilor si unor populatii romanizate, iar apoi ajungand sa desemneze, in variantele sale, popoarele romanice. Deci, asa cum romanii au continuat sa se considere, prin numele ce-si dadeau, o parte dintr-un tot - lumea romanica, romanitatea - si slavii care le-au dat numele folosit de straini ii desemnau ca pe o parte a unui lot, a aceleiasi lumi romanice. Totodata, fiecare vecin sau strain mai indepartat care venea in contact cu o ramura sau alta a poporului roman ii da acelasi nume sau unul echivalent, ceea ce implica, desigur, recunoasterea aceleiasi realitati etnice. A putea banui ca toata lumea era constienta de aceasta unitate de neam si ca romanii singuri o ignorau ar fi desigur sa cadem in absurd.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 10:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Miron Costin, (1633-1691)

message: Source: ([])
:"In tara ardealului nu lacuiesc numai unguri, ca si sasi peste sama de multi si romani peste tot locul, de mai multu-i tara latita de romani decitu de unguri… Romanii, citi se afla lacuitori in Tara Ungureasca si la Ardeal si la Maramorosu, de la un loc sintu cu moldovenii si toti de la Rim sa trag…". Grigore Ureche, Letopisetul Tarii Moldovei. 
:"Asa si neamul nostru, de care scriem, al tarilor acestora, numele vechiu si mai dreptu este ruman, adica rimlean, de la Roma… Iara streinii si tarile imprejur le-au pus acestu nume vlah, de pe vloh, cum s-au mai pomenit, valios, valascos, olah, volosin, tot de la strein sintu puse aceste nume, de pre Italia, carora zic vloh… Cum vedem ca, macara sa ne raspundem acum moldoveni iara nu intrebam : "stii moldoveneste? ", ce "stii romaneste ?"…". Miron Costin, De neamul moldovenilor.
 Bonaparte  talk & contribs 11:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Grigore Ureche

message: Grigore Ureche este cel dintai care vorbeste despre originea romanilor "si toti de la rami se trag".
:(Translation: Grigore Ureche is the first to mention about the ethnogenesis of romanians - "and all from Rome are coming...")
Miron Costin prin lucrarea sa De Neamul Moldovenilor continua ideile lui Ureche in legatura cu etnogeneza romanilor aducand argumente stintifice.
*contribuie in mod esential la formarea constiintei nationale;
*scopul scrierilor nu este numai unul informativ, ci si unul educativ. 
:(Translation: Miron Costin by his work "De neamul Moldovenilor"-On the origin of Moldavians) continues the ideas of Ureche regarding to the "relationship with ethnogenesis of romanians" bringing scientific arguments:
*he contributes essentially to the forming of national conscience
*the aim of his work is not an informal one, but also an educational one
 Bonaparte  talk & contribs 11:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Conclusions

message: Dintre toti scriitorii moldoveni acela care întrece pe toti si are un nume european este Dimitrie Cantemir. Pe lânga activitatea sa politica a fost si un mare scriitor, care avea foarte multe mijloace la îndemâna: pe de o parte avea vechea literatura moldoveana care ajunsese la o mare dezvoltare, apoi avea la îndemâna cunostinte asupra literaturii grecesti, pe care le învatase în Academia din Constantinopol, iar pe de alta parte avea cunostinte apusene, pe care le capatase prin contactul cu lumea diplomatica de la Constantinopol, unde statuse foarte multa vreme ca ostatec, trimis fiind de catre tatal sau. In sfârsit el era un orientalist caci cunostea limbile orientale.
În aceasta perioada scrie, Divanul sau gâlceava înteleptului cu lumea, prima opera scrisa în româna si tiparita la Iasi (1698); întâia scriere filozofica alcatuita de un român, prefatata de fostul sau dascal Cacavela. 
Who was Dimitrie Cantemir?
Dimitrie Cantemir was a Moldavian Voivode (Prince; March-April 1693 and 1710-1711) and prolific man of letters (philosopher, historian, composer, musicologist, linguist, ethnographer, geographer) of Besserabia which included all Moldova.
În intervalul de la 1711-1719 el scrie principalele sale opere. În acest interval s-au scris operele:  Istoria Imperiului Otoman, Sistemul religiei mahomedane,   Hronicul vechimei a romano-moldo-vlahilor, scrisa în româna (1719-1722), cuprinde istoria noastra de la origini pâna la descalecare. 
Sustine ideea cronicarilor: originea comuna a tuturor românilor, Istoria Imperiului Otoman (Cresterea si descresterea curtii otomane),  la cererea Academiei din Berlin, redactata în latina între 1714-1716 si tradusa în engleza, franceza si germana, i-a creat autorului un nume de savant european, mai ales ca în 1714 fusese ales membru al Academiei din Berlin.   
Descriptio Moldaviae (Descrierea Moldovei), scrisa în latina (1714-1716), la cererea Academiei din Berlin, Logica si alte lucrari mai mici. Sub influenta lui Ieremia Cacavela, D. Cantemir scrie în latineste niste compilatii filozofice. În mica sa lucrare, întitulata Ioannis Baptistae Van Helmont phisices universalis doctrina, Cantemir îsi propune sa aduca celebrului savant alchimist si medic belgian din sec. XVI-XVII lauda eruditiei lui. -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 11:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dimitrie Cantemir

message: I've seen this text on the Ukrainian language article. We should add something like this also!
Soviet policy towards the Ukrainian language changed abruptly in late 1932 and early 1933, when Stalin had already established his firm control over the party and, therefore, the Soviet state. In December, 1932, the regional party cells received a telegram signed by Molotov and Stalin with an order to immediately reverse the korenization policies. The telegram condemned Ukrainianization as ill-considered and harmful and demanded to "immediately halt Ukrainianization in raions (districts), switch all Ukrainianized newspapers, books and publications into Russian and prepare by autumn of 1933 for the switching of schools and instruction into Russian".
The following years were characterized by massive repression and many hardships for the Ukrainian language and people. Some historians, especially of Ukraine, emphasize that the repression was applied earlier and more fiercely in Ukraine than in other parts of the Soviet Union, and were therefore anti-Ukrainian; others assert that Stalin's goal was the generic crushing of any dissent, rather that targeting the Ukrainians in particular.
The Stalinist era also marked the beginning of the Soviet policy of encouraging Russian as the language of (inter-ethnic) Soviet communication. Although Ukrainian continued to be used (in print, education, radio and later television programs), it lost its primary place in advanced learning and republic-wide media. Ukrainian was considered to be of secondary importance, and an excessive attachment to it was considered a sign of nationalism and so "politically incorrect".  At the same time, however, the new Soviet Constitution adopted in 1936 stipulated that teaching in schools should be in native languages.
 Bonaparte  talk & contribs 11:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Persecution and russification

message: I would like to say some things.
# I would like to ask Ronline to always use an edit summary when he contributes. I asked this on your adminship nomination too. This article is very sensitive, and it helps a lot to see what changed when. Please write in the edit summary what you changed unless it is typos.
# I would like to ask Bonaparte to cool down. Nobody's going to read all that huge amount of prose you are putting on this talk page. Take it one issue at a time, you will have plenty of time to express all you think.
# I would like to ask Node ue to sign his posts. And if you insert your arguments inside somebody else's argument, please indent more than once, it is hard to read this way.
# I would like to ask Node ue and Ronline to talk more. For now, each of you does its own thing and it looks too much like a revert war.  Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:28, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remarks on recent changes 

message: This is the (n+2) times when this quy Node alias Mark Williamson makes unilateral changes. I repeat one more time and maybe for the last time: YOU DID NOT REACHED CONSENSUS and nobody agrees with you. You are alone in your position and as I said before you are just making an edit war here. In the last 3 days you've made more then 9 edits and no person agreed with you! It seems to me that you don't care and you're not even trying to reach an consensus here. Don't worry we have a solution for this kind of guys. 
Yesterday I said this. But now this guy continues with his outrageous behaviour! He DID NOT REACHED CONSENSUS, he made unilateral changes [], he is just a blatant vandal who makes a revert war. You are alone in your position. Now in 4 days all that he made was just a trolling revert war. I didn't even edit once but he made an inacceptable revert war.  Bonaparte  talk & contribs 21:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You accuse me of not trying to reach consensus. Does that mean that you are trying to reach consensus? Whether or not you agree with my edits is irrelevant. I have given sources for every statement I've added. So, would you like to challenge the sources? --Node 22:00, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The (n+2) times when Node alias Mark Williamson makes unilateral changes