Talk:Albanians/Archive 1

message: Igor, all I am saying is mention the source. I am not defending the current stats. You say the source is official, then just go ahead an mention it -- what's the problem??? Dori 00:46, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant an external link. You didn't memorize the data did you? You must have looked it up somewhere. I could make up a source like that too, but I'd rather not. Dori 00:59, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with that. Dori 12:26, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: OK, I think I added that page before I knew about this one (when I first discovered wikipedia). Merging the two is not a bad idea, and it might avoid some confusion. --Dori 22:03, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: Well finally you mention the magical source. Why are you opposed to citing it in the articles? Dori 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: So why don't you explaing the reasoning. You can say that this is the estimate from this census based off of the estimated percentage of minorities. As I've said, if we are to use numbers at random, I'd rather use mine. Dori 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old discussions 

message: invgr.com
:Between July 2003 and October 2004, 700,000 residence permits were issued with 509,000 permits in force in January 2004, which fell to 250,000 permits in September 2004, the survey showed. The highest percentage of immigrants with residence permits were Albanians at 63.2%, followed by Bulgarians (9.8%), Romanians (4.3%), Ukrainians (3.4%), Pakistanis (2.4%), and Georgians (2.2%).
Country Rports on Human Rights Practices
From the 2003 report on Europe and Asia 92839EU.pdf, the section on Greece, pg. 244:
:National/Racial/Ethnic Minorities.--Anti-foreigner sentiment existed and was directed mainly at Albanians, who made up approximately 5 percent of the population. Approximately 500,000 of the estimated 1 million aliens in the country were Albanians. While Albanian legal residents encountered less official discrimination than Albanians residing in the country illegally, Albanian immigrants faced widespread societal discrimination.
: A number of citizens identified themselves as Turks, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma, Arvanites (Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian), or "Macedonians" or "Slavomacedonians." The Government formally recognizes only the "Muslim minority" (see Section 2.c.), and does not officially acknowledge the existence of any ethnic groups, principally Slavophones, under the term "minority." However, the Government has affirmed an individual right of self-identification. As a result, some individuals who defined themselves as members of a minority found it difficult to express their identity freely and to maintain their culture. Use of the terms "Tourkos" and "Tourkikos" ("Turk" and "Turkish") is prohibited in titles of organizations, although individuals legally may call themselves "Tourkos." To most Greeks, the words "Tourkos" and "Tourkikos" connote Turkish identity or loyalties, and many object to their use by Greek citizens of Turkish origin. At year's end, an appeal from the "Turkish Union of Xanthi" and a petition for the establishment of a "Turkish Women's Union" were pending in court.
It seems to me that the 500,000 figure is generally accepted in the absence of other evidence, but that the description of Arvanites as "Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian" may be  better supported than the current article version.  But I need a few more sources to be sure.
Acerimusdux 12:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Acerimusdux! Here, from Encyclopædia Britannica, The Albanians in Greece.
The origins of the Albanians (Albanoi/Arvanitai in Greek) remain uncertain. They appear to be the descendants of the Illyrian populations who withdrew into the highlands of the central Dinaric chain. Their name may originate from the valley of the Arbanon (along the Shkumbi River) in the theme of Dyrrachion (Durrës/Durazzo), in which they were first noted by outside commentators. Their language probably evolved from ancient Illyrian (formerly classed with the Hellenic group of Indo-European languages but now generally recognized as an independent member of the latter family), but it is heavily influenced by Greek, Slavic, and Turkish, as well as medieval Italian. For reasons not yet fully understood, the Albanians began in the 14th century to advance into the western coastal plain, where they served both Byzantine and Serbian overlords as well as ruling independently under various warlords and chiefly families; they were also present in considerable numbers in Thessaly, Boeotia, Attica, and the Peloponnese, serving as soldiers and as farmers, colonizing deserted lands. Albanians arrived in large numbers in the Peloponnese during the reign of the despotes Manuel Kantakouzenos, who brought them there to serve as soldiers and to resettle depopulated regions. The impact of their presence on the region's existing ethnic and linguistic structure remains debated. Albanau 12:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to discuss "Greek Policy Towards Migrants", I'l be more than happy to engage you.  But first it has to be established that the issue is within the scope to the Albanians article. Chronographos 14:32, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A couple more interesting links 

message: If this discussion is to lead anywhere, you will have to formulate the specific, individual questions that need to be answered.  Chronographos 14:32, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Question for Bratsche

message: The article currently reads:
:In Greece, there were more waves of immigration from Albania, from the 13th century to the 1990s. As such, they are divided into different groups:
:    * "Cham" Muslim Albanians; an unknown number reside in the Greek region of Epirus (Çamëria in Albanian) - there were thought to be around 100,000 before the end of World War II, during which many fled to Albania.
Some have questioned the appropriateness of the addition of "Muslim" as a modifier (not contained in the previous version), questioning whether all "Chams" are Muslim.  Additionally, some favor a more direct description of the circumstances under which nearly all Muslims left the region. Acerimusdux 00:27, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC Issue 1

message: Currrent text:
:    * The ancestors of the Arvanites are thought to have arrived from Albania during the Middle Ages, speaking a language closely related to Tosk; today they consider themselves Greek and few speak their ancestral tongue; between 140,000 and 1,600,000.
The dispute here seems to center arround the phrases "thought to have arrived from Albania" and the description of the language as "closely related to Tosk".  The previous version simply described them as Albanians, and that author has since argued for the phrase "descended from Albanians", and suggests that the language should be described as "derived from Tosk Albanian".  The author of the current version identifies himself as having Arvanite ancestry and objects to being labeled Albanian.  He has further provided evidence that Arvanites in general object to being considered Albanian. Acerimusdux 00:27, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC Issue 2

message: Current text:
:    * Albanian nationals, including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs in addition to ethnic Albanians, that arrived especially during the 1990s, mostly as illegal immigrants; as many as 500,000, according to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs. [4]
There has been disagreement here over the addition of the phrase "including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs".  Disagreement seems to be over what percentage of these immigrants, if any, ought to be labeled "ethnic Greeks", and over whether this phrase implies that all or most Aromanians coming from Albania identify as Greek, but not Albanian.  There also has been some dispute of the accuracy of the "mostly as illegal immigrants" addition. Acerimusdux 00:27, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC Issue 3

message: Ladies and Gentlemen,I have made various edits to this article due to the fact that certain entries are inaccurate. To be more specific, Arvanitic and Arbëresh (or as called by the UN Arvanitika Albanian and Arbëreshë Albanian respectively) are classed linguistically as a dialects/varieties of Tosk Albanian. This position is endorsed by the UNESCO RED BOOK ON ENDANGERED LANGUAGES: EUROPE (see entries for Arvanitic and Arbëresh respectively). There is no proof that these languages are separate languages as the articles previously stated and Wikipedia policy (Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability) requires that the truth be entered on articles (the truth being that these languages are dialects/varieties of Tosk Albanian). If anybody reverts these edits without providing evidence that they were justified in doing so he/she will have commited vandalism and will have violated Wikipedia policy. If anybody chooses to vandalise the article and violate Wikipedia policy they will be reported.Regards,REX 23:56, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it's in the forthcoming UNESCO Black book on Dead Languages as well, which comes with a CD featuring Modest Mussorgsky's piece (from Pictures at an Exhibition) "Cum mortuis in lingua mortua".  Chronographos 21:56, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Why?  Can you at least point out some classical recordings by Albanian composers to me, since you are considered an expert?  I would be interested in SACD or DVD-Audio preferably.  I hear the stringtone of the Tirana Symphony Orchestra rivals the Wienerphilharmoniker (on a full moon on February 31st), which is why they are the darling of Deutsche Grammophon.  I hear that Enver Hoxha was a secret musicologist and had singlehandedly restored Gustav Mahler's unfinished 10th Symphony to its full intended magnificence.  The score was discovered recently and it is considered superb!  Ain't it so?  Chronographos 23:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

text: How exquisite!  What a pity he only performed in communist Prague.  And in equally communist China.  I am sure billions of Chinese hum his haunting tunes as they happily harvest rice.  Has he written a Symphony on rice harvesting by the way?  Chronographos 01:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Interesting and rewarding.  It's like separating the wheat from the chaff.  You keep the former and deport the latter.  Chronographos 10:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Όχι, απλώς πιο φτωχοί. Chronographos 16:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Το λαμπρό τους μέλλον είναι προδιαγεγραμμένο: σε 40 χρόνια η Αλβανία θα είναι μία σχετικά εύπορη χώρα και σε 60 θα γίνει δεκτή στην Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση. Chronographos 17:07, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

text:  Keep in mind that Albania is a small country and with a strong Italian and Greek influence, therefore its development would be relatively easier than it was in Greece. bogdan | Talk 17:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation 

message: This article gives the figure "20,000", but according to the last census there were only around 500 Albanians. Does anyone has a citation for the "20,000" figure? 
I know that in 19th century there was indeed a rather important Albanian community in Romania, perhaphs reaching that figure, but AFAIK, they did not lived in isolated communities (like Jews used to) and got integrated quickly in the Romanian society. bogdan | Talk 00:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot find any reliable references for that 20,000 figure. All I could find is that 2002 census. Ethnologue, who usually is quite nitpicky over things like that does not have any figures for Albanians in Romania, and we know how much they like to inflate figures. They even say that there are 180,000 Macedonian speakers in Greece! REX 10:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Those figures are clearly wrong. It's common knowledge that there are circa six million Albanians on Earth, with just over half living in Albania. About 1.5 million in Kosovo and the rest in other countries such as Serbia - Montenegro, Macedonia, Greece and Italy. REX 13:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanians in Romania 

message: The table on the right hand side of the article is really quite unacceptable,as it does not seem to have been derived from serious published sources. For example, how can there be 2 million Albanians in Greece? THe absolute maximum of recent Albanian immigrants is about 500.000, plus some 200.000 categorised as ethnic Greeks. Of older migrations, the Arvanites are not self-identified as a minority, are completely integrated into Greek society, and there are no figures on their numbers. So where does this figure of 2 million come from?
There are similar problems with other countries, including Romania, as noted above. The 2002 census gives 520, and the 1992 Census results appear not to be available in that detail but give the smallest ethnic minority (Armenians) as 2.023. 
Martin Baldwin-Edwards Mediterranean Migration Observatory, Athens
--87.202.20.208 13:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: =