Talk:Romulus Augustulus

message: Has it been definitely confirmed that Romulus was alive in 511?  I know the evidence is two letters from 507 and 511 confirming a pension, but they are addressed to a "Romulus" whose imperial pedigree is at best uncertain.  Romulus (like Augustus) was a fairly common name toward the end of the Empire.  Additionally, one historian of the time (can't remember who) claimed that Odoacer threw Romulus in jail.  And the monastery the last Emperor supposedly endowed, according to Gibbon, was the old villa where Romulus lived -- suggesting that he was dead when it was taken over.  Gibbon dates that to about 496 AD or so.
Sorry to be nitpicky. :) I think a death date of after 476 would be more accurate than after 511.--68.221.193.57 01:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romulus' later life 

message: I've added footnotes to the article, and moved some things around as a result.  Can someone find a citation on Orestes' "Germanic" origins?  It would make sense, considering he was in the army and refused the Imperial throne (which Germans could not accept) but I've never read anything that says that conclusively.--Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to recall from reading something many years ago that Orestes was an officer in (or perhaps even commander of) Attila's German bodyguard. It may even come from Gibbon, come to think of it. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnotes 

message: I don't want to get into a revert war here, so I'll just ask: Can someone explain the reason for the new section on Nepos?  I understand that he was legally the last Roman emperor, but I think this is all address in the Western Empire after Romulus Augustus, which states the controversy concisely.  But I'm willing to hear althernative viewpoints.  :)--Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've decided to rewrite the section.  I think the legal question of Nepos as the last western emperor is interesting, but most of the stuff here repeats earlier sections, and the histories of the Roman Empire -- then and now -- have acknowledged that Augustus was the last western emperor.  He was the last to hold authority in Italy, and once he fled Ravenna, Nepos had absolutely no support in the elite classes (even Zeno abandoned him quickly).  For all intents and purposes, Nepos was the penultimate emperor.  Of course, I'll listen to anyone with an opposing argument.--Idols of Mud 00:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Julius Nepos section 

message: I have passed the article through to GA.  It is well written, has no obvious POV problems, covers the subject fully, and cites reliable sources.  Great work!  Eluchil404 21:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!--Idols of Mud 13:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I double checked the image licencing and found that :Image:Romul Avgustul.gif didn't have adequate source information of a proper fairuse rationale.  It looks like a 19th centurey engraving that should be PD but without a source we just can't know.  I have commented it out of th article pending poper sourcing.  Eluchil404 01:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA

message: Question of successor is simple. We can write tittle extinct or we can write all successors which control roman provinces with roman army. They are:
*Odoacer military ruler of Italy, 
*Syagrus military ruler of Gaul, 
*emperor Julius Nepos military ruler of Dalmatia
If Romulus Augustus has been king of Italy then you can write Odoacer like successor, but he has been "emperor" of all western roman provinces not only of Italy !
Rjecina 15:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Successor

message: The accumulation of evidence is pretty clear, isn't it? 
(1) The Eastern Emperor Zeno never recognized either the elevation of Romulus Ausgustus nor the deposition of Julius Nepos. 
(2) Odoacer, while acting as Zeno's de jure deputy in the West, continued to mint coins in JN's name until the latter died in 480. Ergo, JN was de jure emperor in the West until his death, his deposition was illegitimate, the investigure of RA was a usurpation, and Orestes was in contempt of imperial authority.  
(3) After the death of JN, Odoacer conveyed an opinion to his de jure overlord Zeno, to the effect that one emperor (meaning Zeno and his successors in East) was sufficient, and that no emperor in the West was necessary, and that he, Odoacer, would henceforth owe his full allegiance to the one emperor in the East. Zeno agreed. Of course, this means that there were no more Western emperors following the reign of JN, which ended in 480. 
Ergo, by the legal standards of the time, JN was Western emperor from his elevation until his death. The fact that his jurisdiction  fell into the hands of a usurper doesn't mean that the usurper replaced the legitimate ruler, any more than the Italian invasion of Ethiopia means that Mussolini or the King of Italy ever replaced Haile Selassie as that country's legitimate ruler. The last Western emperor in the West was JN. 
Am I missing something? Tom129.93.17.135 19:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument assumes that the imperial succession was a clearly defined legal process.  But Roman history shows that power rarely changed hands peacefully.  If we want to accept Nepos as the last emperor because he lawfully held the title when he died, then we would have to regard Claudius, Nero, Vespasian, Nerva, Septimius Severus, Aurelian, Diocletian and Constantine (and others) as unlawful usurpers who never held the throne.  Legally, that might be correct; historically, it's inaccurate.   Nepos was regarded by ancient historians as an exile when he fled to Dalmatia and he had absolutely no support in Italy after fleeing. While they had little good to say about Augustulus, the chroniclers of the time accepted him as the emperor.  Moreover, Zeno's acceptance of the imperial insignia, and the Senate's message proclaiming Zeno the only emperor of the Roman Empire, suggests how little people cared for Nepos' cause after Augustulus' fall.--Idols of Mud 16:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When we speak about legal arguments I must say that for me is very hard to understand English-USA history looking on Augustulus. Can somebody please explain me why Joannes is usurper and Romul Augustulus legal ruler ? For me there is no difference between this 2 because both has become emperors with coup. .--Rjecina 17:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Possession is nine-tenths of the law.  Nepos was an unpopular ruler in Italy, and what little support he had disappeared after he fled.  Augustulus is the last emperor because Odoacer was careful to ensure that no other emperors were appointed in his domain.  He never accepted Nepos as anything more than a nominal emperor, and refused to accept any appointments from the eastern emperor after his death.  Nepos and Augustulus may have gotten to the throne through illegitimate means, but what matters is who was on the throne when a German took power and decided he would no longer submit to emperors.--Idols of Mud 14:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK I am accepting your arguments but I really like to hear your position about Joannes !? --Rjecina 16:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who was the last Western Roman Emperor? Romulus Augustulus or Julius Nepos? Obvious answer: the latter.

message: I rewrote the first line to demonstrate that F. Romulus Augustus was also called Romulus Augustulus and that he was not referred to as "Little Augustus" outside of academia.  If it still seems unclear, perhaps explaining that Augustulus is a Latin diminutive name form?  I did my best here to make it less confusing. 75.67.40.227 (talk) 22:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Line Naming 

message: While Zeno told the Senate that Nepos was their lawful sovereign, he did not press the point, and accepted the imperial insignia brought to him by the senate - not correct. Zeno accepted the insignia only after Nepos' death.--Dojarca (talk) 09:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is not when the insignia were accepted.  The point is that the Eastern Emperor accepted them, meaning he saw no need for a Western Emperor.  But I've never seen anything to suggest the insignia were accepted after Nepos' death.  Do you have a source?--Idols of Mud (talk) 18:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect 

message: This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I performed a basic copyedit, but I have also found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
*My biggest problem here, and the one which must be sorted out if the article is to remain a GA is the "Romulus in popular culture" section. This is nothing more than an unsourced list of things this charater has appeared in. I'm not convinced of its benefit to the article at all, but if it is to stay it has to be presented in a much more encyclopaedic manner, i.e. in coherent text with reliable references.
*The prose needs some work to remove colloquial English. I have given some examples below although these are not the only phrases with problems.
:*"The empire they ruled was a shadow of its former self."
:*"Constantinople viewed Orestes' coup d'etat coolly."
:*"The last emperor: Romulus Augustus or Julius Nepos?" (I know its a title, but it is also another example).
Other than these two issues, the article seems OK, although it could always do with expanding or extra sourcing where possible. I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are being addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 (talk) 00:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Made changes per request.--Idols of Mud (talk) 20:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thankyou, it passes GA, although please make sure that if the popular culture section comes back it is presented in the correct fashion.--Jackyd101 (talk) 16:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Sweeps

message: Although a common nomen at the tiem, there's no evidence that Romulus and Orestes bore the name "Flavius". See PLRE II "Orestes 2" (pp. 811-2) and "Romulus 4" (pp. 949-5) for full references.82.44.82.167 (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Flavius" Romulus and "Flavius" Orestes 

message: We say nothing about how a boy of 14 (or even maybe as young as 12) got to become Emperor of Rome.  --  JackofOz (talk) 03:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says his dad made him emperor and ruled through him.  Child emperors were not unheard of in Roman history -- Alexander Severus was 12 when he took the purple.--Idols of Mud (talk) 14:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Age at accession

message: Change the infobox to match the other Emperors. The color is wrong.
:Done. Flamarande (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox Changes 

message: Can someone please provide a source for this second "nickname"? On the web I couldn`t find other proof, all results i managed to gather were websites citing Wikipedia. 31.16.200.17 (talk) 17:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure. Some 18th- and 19th-century sources at Google Books suggest that 'Momylus' might have been his real name, while others consider it a sarcastic nickname (μῶμος does mean 'disgrace'). According to  this comment in an edition of Gibbon’s work, the form never appears on coins. This source states that Momylus is an unintentional corruption that is found in certain (unspecified, but presumably Greek) manuscripts : "Die Namen des Romulus sind nicht »Momylus« oder »Momyllus«, was nur fehlerhafte Handschriftenform statt Romulus ist; er heisst auch nicht »Augustulus«, wie er scherzhaft genannt wird, sondern führt den Namen: »Augustus«)". Iblardi (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, all the other Latin and English sources I can find give it as "Momillus"; Gibbon seems to be the only one spelling it "Momyllus" in English. Gibbon claims that it is a corruption, via Greek, of "Romulus", but I find this unlikely. It is probably a diminutive of "Momus". We already have an alternate source in Swedish that seems to state this; I will try to find one in English.Jpbrenna (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Momylos - little disgrace 

message: "The empire Augustulus ruled was a shadow of its former self and had shrunk significantly over the previous 80 years. Imperial authority had retreated to the Italian borders and parts of southern Gaul: Italia and Gallia Narbonensis, respectively"
This statement appears to be very inconsistent with the map right next to it.Tallewang (talk) 23:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a quite different map in The Last Legion; it would make more sense if one was selected for both, or differences clarified. Also, The Last Legion claims (uncitedly) that the nowadays ubiquent designation of RA as The Last Emperor originated in Gibbon. If it's true, I'd think it relevant for this article, too. And if it's not, it should be purged from the other one. --Ehitaja (talk) 12:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bogus map ? 

message: The DIR article gives two different versions. Nathan states he was crowned "possibly at the age of ten" while Mathisen states that he was "perhaps fourteen years of age". Does anybody knows what source gives Romulus' age? The Anonymus Valesianus states that Odoacer felt "pity on his youth", but that doesn't tell us much. Neither the PLRE nor ODB give any date of birth. Tintero21 (talk) 04:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always assumed the ages are all modern estimates/suggestions but I could be wrong. Ichthyovenator (talk) 08:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romulus' true age of accession