Talk:The Evolution of Cooperation

message: I don't know about U.S. publications but the UK penguin edition is entitled 'The Evolution of Co-operation' as opposed to 'The Evolution of Cooperation' as it is in this article. MagicBez 17:49, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening comment

message: This is one of my favourite books with all sorts of potential for pragmatic ethics. One thing troubles me though: the exposition never addressed the question of the extent of knowledge available to the algorithms. Tit-for-Tat manages with the minimum on information; namely just he record of the last encounter with its (recognised) opponent. Its certainly possible that better results might be achieved by an algorithm with access to more complete information, such as:
1) record of encounters with this opponent
2) record of opponent's encounters (including with other participants)
3) record of encounters with all opponents
4) record of all encounters between any combination of opponents
5) points already acquired by the opponent
6) opponent's source code.
6 is an extreme case where it is very obvious that the information would lead to improved results. The value of information in other case, while certainly less blatant, can still be supported by compelling arguments:
2 may be partially comparable to 6, in that in many cases it may be possible to reverse engineer a opponent's algorithm. 
Also, some combinations of the information above would add to an algorithms's knowledge of the make up of the algorithm population. For instance, it would help in quickly establishing a reliable assessment of the proportion of nice algorithms (cf Axelrod's use of this term), allowing one's own algorithm to make global adjustments as appropriate. 5 is useful as an input to decisions on disruptive behaviour ("stop the leader" - in games where a algorithm is more interested in finishing first than in attaining a high point total) and might also serve as a single parameter estimate of an opponent's non-cooperativeness and/or exploitability. 
The potential for using information about the opponent algorithm's performance in a variety of ways to enhance one's own algorithm's performance seems fairly transparent, and it is surprising that this is neglected. Another interesting field of study would be to assess the value of certain types of information. What would be a fair handicap for an algorithm to accept (in negative starting points) for certain types of information delivered at certain times. 
The above comments, intended as criticisms on Axelrod's book, may also qualify as original research. Hence my reluctance to introduce them into the article. However I'd very much welcome responses from Wikipedians with similar interests/insights..
--Philopedia 18:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism: Neglects recognition/assessment of value of information 

message: "Nature, red in tooth and claw" is Tennyson, not Darwin. "Survival of the fittest" is Herbert Spencer. I'm not sure about "struggle for existence" but suspect it predates them all. To read the wording currently in this article, one could think they are all Darwin. - Jmabel | Talk
:These terms are Darwinian in the sense they have become closely associated with his theory, but are adopted.  I suppose the sources could be put into notes.  I may do that when I replace those naked hyphens with spaced en-dashes. J. Johnson (talk) 19:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The terms are now wiki-linked. - J. Johnson (talk) 00:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Nature, red in tooth and claw"

message: I just noticed that this article dates The Gospel of Wealth to 1900, while the article on the essay itself dates it to 1889. —Tamfang (talk) 05:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference I cited is a collection; the essay was published earliar. (And I believe more than twice.)  - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:58, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  dating Carnegie 

message: Charles G. (and anyone else passing by): stand off from adding the  tags!  The broken links appear to be the result of someone driving Smackbot through and scraping off the "year=" parameters from the citations that Harv needs.  The citation is indeed there, it's only the link the that is broken.  And I am about to go through the entire article to fix that kind of nonsense.  (Kind of wish we had a "man working" tag so no one starts anything while I'm crawling through the gears.) - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed?? 

message: KMatulich: your article on Microbial cooperation looks good, and certainly should be linked from this article.  But the place where you added the link really wasn't appropriate. So I am going to remove that, and find a better place for it. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I support both suggestions; they're not incompatible, are they? Enric, did you mean to capitalise the "E" at the start? Thanks for dealing with this article. Tony (talk) 12:58, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Sorry, but I am going to modify this section, because I think 1) you're moving too quickly, and 2) there is yet not definite statement as to the what move is supposed to be to (or if it is a ratification of the move previously made). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

text: JJ, I can't make out your last statement. Should this article be split into one for the topic and one for the book? If not, it's a bit uncomfortable to thematise the book and then widen beyond it (considerably?) to the topic. Can you give us some direction here? Tony (talk) 03:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're asking what should be done? So am I.  My "direction" is we should sort out what to do before actually doing it.  Or settle on a clear statement of what is proposed to do before voting on it.  What I see here is (in chronological order): 1) someone proposing "a move" (change of title), 2) a move, 3) then discussion of possible changes and statements of support (but for what? "all of the above"?), 4) another move (change of title).  Mixed in with this is discussion of merging and/or splitting the article.  And then suddenly the discussion is closed.  How about we put any further changes on hold until there has been sufficient discussion to settle on a specific proposal to vote on?  ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on The Evolution of Cooperation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110518024042/http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/SciAm02.pdf to http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/SciAm02.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110719060124/http://www.lrz.de/~u516262/webserver/webdata/guererketal2006_sanctioningmechanisms_science.pdf to http://www.lrz.de/~u516262/webserver/webdata/guererketal2006_sanctioningmechanisms_science.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20091229084043/http://lis.epfl.ch:80/~markus/References/Hamilton64a.pdf to http://lis.epfl.ch/~markus/References/Hamilton64a.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110719175825/http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/edu/dees/V1003/lectures/population/Tragedy%20of%20the%20Commons.pdf to http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/edu/dees/V1003/lectures/population/Tragedy%20of%20the%20Commons.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110518015457/http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/science07.pdf to http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/science07.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110629014507/http://www.sfu.ca/~wchane/sa304articles/Henrich.pdf to http://www.sfu.ca/~wchane/sa304articles/Henrich.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110518021052/http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Nowak_Science06.pdf to http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Nowak_Science06.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110719204742/http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Science00.pdf to http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Science00.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110616192929/http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Nature92b.pdf to http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Nature92b.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080704060932/http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Nature93.pdf to http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/Nature93.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110721215055/http://www.ecfs.org/projects/pchurch/AT%20BIOLOGY/PAPERS/ReplacingDarwinsSexualSelection.pdf to http://www.ecfs.org/projects/pchurch/AT%20BIOLOGY/PAPERS/ReplacingDarwinsSexualSelection.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110518024042/http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/SciAm02.pdf to http://www.ped.fas.harvard.edu/people/faculty/publications_nowak/SciAm02.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:59, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I just reworked the lead so that it didn't read like a disambiguation page. 
From MOS:MINORWORK
Italics are generally used only for titles of longer works. Titles of shorter works should be enclosed in double quotation marks ("text like this"). It particularly applies to works that exist as a smaller part of a larger work. Examples of titles which are quoted but not italicized:
* Articles, essays, papers, or conference presentation notes (stand-alone or in a collected larger work). 
The current page title is The Evolution of Cooperation (rendered in italic) which clearly references the book first of all (by MOS:MINORWORK the paper would not be italicized), so I moved the book to the head of the class. 
I strongly feel that the book/paper are notable enough to justify their own article, and that the field the book/paper instigated has since grown into a larger, independently notable field of study. I also think it would greatly benefit clarity to have one article devoted to how things stood at the time of the paper/book, which can basically serve as a "main article" on the origins of the modern disciplinary tussle.  
With this two/three headed beast of an article, the "help wanted" flags at the top could endure for another decade yet, with no substantive improvement. Who wants to dive into cleaning this up, as presently constituted? Not I, for one. — MaxEnt 23:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If people feel that the paper should come before the book in the lead, by all means rename this article to "The Evolution of Cooperation" and reorder the first two definitions to align with the new name. But do note that the lead is presently supported by a book infobox. — MaxEnt 23:19, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article scope remains a complete mess 

message: This has been discussed in the past, but needs to be brought up again. This article is kind of a Frankensteing of three things. My recommendation is that we move it to a general "evolution of cooperation" page or we split out at least the book and the general theory. FiddleheadLady (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move or Split Recommendation 

message: ...or just a general discussion of some related concepts?  Volunteer Marek  01:45, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: At a glance it seems to very much not be about the book. Agree that some kind of move/split is in order, but I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to say where to. Blue Edits (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is most of this article even about the book... 

message: :
The phrase "marketed as" could suggest that the label is misleading, that the foreword is the only new bit.  So, was the body indeed updated?  If so, how about:  ? —Tamfang (talk) 03:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  revised edition