Talk:Crash at Crush

message: What's the cite for the claim that a special track was built?  If you read the engineer's account (external reference) he says they pulled up some track behind each engine to keep them from somehow running away on the mainline.  When I saw the mention of a special track alongside I immediately thought how ridiculous to go to that much trouble when pulling up some track on either side would accomplish the same.  Based on the engineer's account--a man who was there and operated one of the locomotives--I'd say the article as written is wrong.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filmteknik (talk • contribs) 21:20, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Special Track?

message: The article currently states The impact caused both engine boilers to explode, which is the story at http://unmuseum.mus.pa.us/crash.htm and elsewhere, but other sources differ for example http://www.lsjunction.com/facts/crush.htm At the instant of impact, one of the boilers unexpectedly exploded and http://west-tx.com/history-crush.asp one of the boilers exploded sending debris in all directions. Who is right?
http://buckcreek.tripod.com/traincrash.html quotes but does not fully credit what seems to be a number of eyewitness accounts, presumably these are fully credited in the printed source it summarises. It supports the two-boiler story: THE BOILERS OF THE LOCOMOTIVES HAVE BURST, and later After the two trains collide and the boilers burst..., note the plural both times. Andrewa 15:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we can mention the discrepancy in the article if its notable enough to include. The big problem with obscure historical articles is the contradiction from source to source. The further back you go, the more contradiction you will find. IvoShandor 15:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. I'm not quite sure whether the discrepancy needs reporting or not... on the balance it seems likely that both boilers did explode, as the article currently states. Given the nature of the event, and the fact that the press stand was flattened and one photographer seriously injured, the first-hand accounts published in newspapers would almost certainly have contained factual errors at the time. My guess is that this is one of them. Some accounts also claim only two fatalities, but others give three names and other details of the casualties. Andrewa 15:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How many boilers burst

message: The Union Pacific Railroad web site given as reference for the fact that photographer Jarvis Deane lost an eye does not mention Deane, William Crush, or any events that took place in 1896. I am therefore removing it as a reference. Cnilep (talk) 20:40, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Union Pacific Chronological History 

message: The introduction says that the cost of a ticket to Crush was $2. The section titled "Preparations" says it cost no more that $5 for a ticket. I had a look at the reference that "Preparations" cites and it confirmed the price was $2, so I have changed it! SpencerCollins (talk) 12:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Price Discrepancy 

message: Since William Crush page is only about this incident, and nothing about William Crush himself, it should be merged here. --Lohoris (talk) 14:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: From newspapers etc.
It says that there was 'negative publicity' but could there be more detail on this?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.148.126 (talk) 01:16, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  What was the public reaction? 

message: ===Kinetic energy===
The article currently says:
:The total kinetic energy released at the point of impact in the collision was equal to 200 megajoules (MJ), or about 50 kg of TNT.
According to this source cited in the article, each train was moving at 45 mph and consisted of an obsolete 30-ton locomotive pulling 6 cars.  This page, in the section "Freight cars", shows a boxcar built in 1872 that weighed 9 tons unloaded.  If the cars in the trains were this size, each train would have a mass of 84 tons.  The kinetic energy of ½mv² for each train would be 0.5×84 tons×(45 mph)².  Using the UNIX program units:
    $ units
    You have: 0.5 84 45 45 ton mph2
    You want: megajoule
            * 15.419235
            / 0.064854061
we see that this corresponds to only just over 15 MJ of kinetic energy for each train, or 31 MJ in total, not 200.  Even if we assumed that the trains weighed 150 tons and were moving at 55 mph, the total kinetic energy released would be only about 82 MJ.  200 MJ is right out, and I'm deleting the sentence.
===Pressurization energy===
In any case, the kinetic energy released by the impact is of less relevance here than the energy of the pressurized, superheated water released in the boiler explosions, because that's what caused the deaths and injuries.  I wondered if whoever wrote the sentence had that in mind and wrote "kinetic energy" by mistake, so I tried to estimate it.  None of the sources mentions the specific class of locomotives involved in the collision, so I looked for locomotives of similar age and weight.  This page is about a steam locomotive (V&T #11) built in 1872 and weighing 65,000 pounds, which is 32.5 tons.  I expect the ones involved in the crash would have been similar.
Unfortunately that page does not give all the dimensions of V&T #11.  But the boiler tubes were just under 11 feet long.  In the illustrations, that should correspond to the cylindrical section between the first and third brass rings, from which we can estimate that the diameter of the boiler was a bit under 5 feet.  Assuming an internal diameter of 56 inches, the internal volume of the boiler, πr²h, would be π×(28 inches)²×11 feet, or about 5,300 liters:
   You have: 3.1416 28 28 11 inch2 feet
   You want: liter
           * 5327.7278
           / 0.00018769728
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much space inside a boiler of that era was taken up by water and how much by the tubes, or how full the boiler might be. I'll just estimate that the boiler held 2,500 liters of water, weighing 2,500 kg.  Now the last piece of information we need is the boiler pressure: this was a lot lower back then than it became on later steam locomotives.  On V&T #11 it was 130 psi, which is just under 900 kN/m²; but we need the absolute pressure, which is 1 atmosphere or about 100 kN/² larger, for a total of 1,000 kN/m².
   You have: 130 psi
   You want: kilonewton/m2
           * 896.31845
           / 0.0011156749
   You have: atmosphere
   You want: kilonewton/m2
           * 101.325
           / 0.0098692327
According to Wikipedia's boiler explosion article, we now need merely look up the specific enthalpy of water at this temperature, subtract the specific enthalpy at standard pressure, and multiply by the mass of the water.  This table shows the specific enthalpy at an absolute pressure of 1,000 kN/m² as 763.1 kJ/kg, and at 101.33 kN/m² (1 atmosphere) as 419.1 kJ/kg.  So the energy release would be (763.1 − 419.1) kJ/kg × 2,500 kg, which is 860,000 kJ or 860 MJ.  For both boilers, double that to 1,720 MJ.  So unless I've made a gross error along the way, the energy release from the pressurized, superheated water must have been much greater than the amount referred to in the questionable sentence.
Of course none of what I've just done qualifies for mention in the article; it would be classified as original research and anyway I made way too many assumptions along the way for the numbers to carry a lot of weight.  Still, it's good enough to show that the sentence could not have been intended to be talking about this form of energy either; and that, besides curiosity, was my reason for doing the computation.
--50.100.188.72 (talk) 11:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Energy release 

message: In any case, the kinetic energy released by the impact is of less relevance here than the energy of the pressurized, superheated water released in the boiler explosions, because that's what caused the deaths and injuries.  I wondered if whoever wrote the sentence had that in mind and wrote "kinetic energy" by mistake, so I tried to estimate it.  None of the sources mentions the specific class of locomotives involved in the collision, so I looked for locomotives of similar age and weight.  This page is about a steam locomotive (V&T #11) built in 1872 and weighing 65,000 pounds, which is 32.5 tons.  I expect the ones involved in the crash would have been similar.
Unfortunately that page does not give all the dimensions of V&T #11.  But the boiler tubes were just under 11 feet long.  In the illustrations, that should correspond to the cylindrical section between the first and third brass rings, from which we can estimate that the diameter of the boiler was a bit under 5 feet.  Assuming an internal diameter of 56 inches, the internal volume of the boiler, πr²h, would be π×(28 inches)²×11 feet, or about 5,300 liters:
   You have: 3.1416 28 28 11 inch2 feet
   You want: liter
           * 5327.7278
           / 0.00018769728
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much space inside a boiler of that era was taken up by water and how much by the tubes, or how full the boiler might be. I'll just estimate that the boiler held 2,500 liters of water, weighing 2,500 kg.  Now the last piece of information we need is the boiler pressure: this was a lot lower back then than it became on later steam locomotives.  On V&T #11 it was 130 psi, which is just under 900 kN/m²; but we need the absolute pressure, which is 1 atmosphere or about 100 kN/² larger, for a total of 1,000 kN/m².
   You have: 130 psi
   You want: kilonewton/m2
           * 896.31845
           / 0.0011156749
   You have: atmosphere
   You want: kilonewton/m2
           * 101.325
           / 0.0098692327
According to Wikipedia's boiler explosion article, we now need merely look up the specific enthalpy of water at this temperature, subtract the specific enthalpy at standard pressure, and multiply by the mass of the water.  This table shows the specific enthalpy at an absolute pressure of 1,000 kN/m² as 763.1 kJ/kg, and at 101.33 kN/m² (1 atmosphere) as 419.1 kJ/kg.  So the energy release would be (763.1 − 419.1) kJ/kg × 2,500 kg, which is 860,000 kJ or 860 MJ.  For both boilers, double that to 1,720 MJ.  So unless I've made a gross error along the way, the energy release from the pressurized, superheated water must have been much greater than the amount referred to in the questionable sentence.
Of course none of what I've just done qualifies for mention in the article; it would be classified as original research and anyway I made way too many assumptions along the way for the numbers to carry a lot of weight.  Still, it's good enough to show that the sentence could not have been intended to be talking about this form of energy either; and that, besides curiosity, was my reason for doing the computation.
--50.100.188.72 (talk) 11:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Pressurization energy

message: The article, in the lead as well as a repeat in the "Crash" section that includes duplicate reference listings, show confusion as to the number of "spectators" killed. According to references and the historical marker two "spectators" were killed. Their names were Earnest Darnall, and DeWitt Barns. Darnall was in a tree and hit by a piece of medal that split his skull. DeWitt was killed by a hot bolt that also injured two others. John Morrison of Ferris, Texas was not killed as a spectator but as he was heading home when he fell under the train wheels (here) and (here). Morrison was a spectator, was not killed at the crash site, but was considered a fatality of the event. Otr500 (talk) 17:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of "spectators" killed 

message: Might be worth adding a link here D3matt (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to "Great Crush Collision March" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article is not about the city or site, but about the Crash at Crush event. Why not change the lemma. Thanks, Maikel (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Lemma

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion