Talk:Destructive cult/Archive 1

message: From WP:RfD:
* Destructive cult → List of purported cults - Delete redirect. Title is inherently POV. Just a few days ago we completed the deletion of another POV redirect to this article (List of deadly cults) for same reasons.  Thanks. --Zappaz 02:23, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Previous request for discussion 

message: Can someone find a referece or attribution to the statement below? Thanks --ZappaZ  01:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This definition is often extended to any new religious movement (NRM) which allegedly ruins its members lives or markedly limits their personal freedom: emotionally, mentally, spiritually or financially.
Given that no references or attribution to above statement were provided, I have deleted the text. --ZappaZ  21:09, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Steven Hassan uses the term in such a way though the exact wording may differ. Andries 17:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference 

message: I took a class on Radical Islam, the paper of which I should really finish, and this group was mentioned as being seen as "a cult" in Egypt. It did not say that of Al-Qaeda or other jihadist. Could they/should they be added? Or added with some kind of note maybe?--T. Anthony 13:28, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Were they mentioned in some type of printed material that could be used as your source? I see no reason why there wouldn't be cults in Egypt, there always have been. Are they desctructive? -Willmcw 20:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have to look through my books from the Radical Islam class. They were mentioned in some Egyptian newspaper as "cultlike", but the statement is disputed as they are also an Islamist terrorist group like Al-Qaeda. One of their members shot a bunch of people in a pacifist mosque in Sudan. Their goals are much more solely religious than AQ. If I add them I'll mention the paper and put in a note, but I think they'd be closer to fitting than Al-Qaeda. Although that could be opening a flood gate for including Lord's Resistance Army and God's Army I guess.--T. Anthony 00:07, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question Replacing Al-Qaeda with [[Takfir wal-Hijra]] 

message: I disagree with the stated definition of the term. A quick net search reveals that most definitions do not include the limitation to cults which advocate or carry out murder.--Anchoress 04:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, it is also used by anti-cult activists for cults that they believe to ruin lives. It used to be in the article but somehow it got lost. Andries 17:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of Destructive cult 

message: Could use votes to save this article, thanks MapleTree 22:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of doomsday scenarios]] 

message: Doesn't Islam fall into the category of this?
:Not unless you include all of the world's religions. Most religions have their crazies.  Tanaats 02:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of Islam 

message: Smeelgova. This section was removed because a reliable reference  was found showing that Heidi was released without charge shortly after the event. This means that the story is a Wikipedia:BLP violation since there was, in fact, no "destructive cult" that she could be accused of leading. Please refer to the discussion on the related "Cult" article for further details. .
Thanks & regards Bksimonb 13:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heidi Fittkau-Garthe 

message: Added 4 cites of people who consider Al Qaeda to be a cult. EmmDee 17:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrorist and paramilitary organizations 

message: We already have a category, :Category:Destructive cults.  This is a proposal and a question for feedback regarding the creation of a list:  List of destructive cults.  As per the current instructions at the category, the list would be one were there is consensus in reputable sources that these groups are destructive cults.  The term "destructive cult", sometimes called "doomsday cult" refers to a small number of religious groups that have intentionally killed people - either themselves or others.
=== Feedback on proposal for List of destructive cults ===
*Please provide feedback on this idea, in this subsection, below.  Smee 03:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal, creation of article related to this one:  [[List of destructive cults]] 

message: *Please provide feedback on this idea, in this subsection, below.  Smee 03:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feedback on proposal for [[List of destructive cults]] 

message: Should it be mentioned? Several sources seem to indicate it's violent and "a sect."SABC,BBC,Mainichi.--T. Anthony 00:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mungiki]]? 

message: *Historical Trends Related to Bioterrorism: An Empirical Analysis -- This is all PUBLIC DOMAIN, so any images, etc. can be used in this article.  Notice the table which discusses "Rajneeshee Cult" and "Aum Shinrikyo"...  Just some food for thought, or anthrax and Salmonella for thought rather, yuck yuck.  Smee 00:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paper on bioterrorism discusses two "cults" 

message: I'm removing the  tag -- if someone else wants to put it back then feel free, but please be more precise about what sort of photo you think would accompany this article well, so other editors have an idea of what to look for. Tim Pierce 15:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo request 

message: Per Guide to layout, "(...)A See also section should ideally not (...) links that are only vaguely related to the topic(...)". Including the List of groups referred to as cults is only vaguely related to the article, since 1)The groups listed are only referred to as cults, not cults. 2) Are not necessarily "Destructive cults". Including the link is misleading because it presupposes that the groups listed are destructive. Sfacets 00:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The list of groups referred to as cults is closely related to this article.  Most of the groups considered destructive cults are on that list.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 04:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you rephrase the question? You seem to be asking me to verify that groups in this article are also in List of groups referred to as cults. That's self-evident.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 22:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: No, they aren't. There'a no implication that a "see also" entry is 100% related to the topic of an article.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 23:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See above "...links that are only vaguely related to the topic..." Sfacets 23:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a vague relatuionship. It's clear.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It isn't clear, it is misleading. Sfacets 01:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: Two more possible sources for 'Destructive Cult' in the sense of 'murderous cult'
1.
APA online. Monitor on Psychology, Volume 33, No. 10 November 2002 
'Cults of hatred' 
[...]
'A destructive cult is an authoritarian regime, which uses deception when recruiting as well as mind-control techniques to make a person dependent and obedient, he [Hassan] said. 
'Al Qaeda fulfills the criteria for a destructive cult, Hassan said. "We need to apply what we know about destructive mind-control cults, and this should be a priority with the war on terrorism. We need to understand the psychological aspects of how people are recruited and indoctrinated so we can slow down recruitment. We need to help counsel former cult members and possibly use some of them in the war against terrorism." '
2.
Commentary: John Walker and The Fatal Flaw in Our War on Terrorism! 
FactNet, 1/25/02, Internet. Republished Cultic Studies Review Vol. 1, No. 1, 2002 
[...]
'America's current war on terrorism is perilously flawed without a powerfully-executed, inoculative and preventative educational program on the tactics of mind control and destructive cults that is widely available in every language where these cults exists. 
[...]
'Widespread education on how mind control works in destructive cults is the first line of cost effective prevention and population inoculation that finally deals with the real causes of the manufacturing system that creates martyrs and terrorists. '
I think the APA is a RS, and Cultic Studies Review has a fairly impressive Editorial Board:
Also:
Death Cults: Murder, Mayhem and Mind Control 
Publisher: Virgin Publishing (September 2002) ISBN-10: 0753506440; ISBN-13: 978-0753506448 
'Book Description
'A chilling insight into cults and their leaders worldwide. From Charles Manson's 'family' of the late 1960s to the horrific Ten Commandments of God Killings in Uganda in March 2000, seemingly deluded and brainwashed followers of cults and their megalomaniac leaders have been responsible for many of history's most shocking killings. Jack Sargeant has compiled twelve essays featuring cults about whom very little has previously been written, such as the Russian castration sect and the Japanese Aum doomsday cult that leaked sarin gas into Tokoyo's subways.'
Not sure if this one is RS, and also it doesn't use the term 'Destructive Cult' as such. EmmDee 23:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have rolled-back  article to version of 17:41 10 Oct 07 by Lonewolf BC, and added cites for use of term 'Destructive Cult'. Hope this is OK.EmmDee 15:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two more sources for term 'Destructive Cult' ? 

message: Why has the 'Documented cases' section been deleted. It existed in an earlier version of the article, 17:41 10 Oct 07 by Lonewolf BC?
ITSM that it provided useful links to well-sourced information about a number of groups that fit the definition of 'religious groups that have intentionally killed people ...'.EmmDee 16:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That section was original research.  First, it was not well-sourced, because no sources were cited, there were only internal Wikipedia links.  Second, it is original research to compile a list of groups here just on the basis that some editors think they meet the definition.  This article is about 'destructive cults', if there are sources that describe groups in that context then it would be approprate to further develop the article using those sources. -- Really Spooky  —Preceding comment was added at 19:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Documented cases 

message: Hi,
I am a rank luddite with no idea how to edit this page, so I'm hoping someone can help me...  currently, a search for "death cult" in wikipedia redirects the searcher to this article ("destructive cult").  It's wrong: a death cult isn't a cult that kills people, it's the portion of a religion that deals with death.  For instance, the Ancient Egyptians had a death cult: there were religious proscriptions that taught them how to relate to death.  The theorist Lawrence Rickels has said that California is "the death cult of America".  So I have no idea how to change this, but somebody really ought to.  Thanks wikiworld!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.3.246.130 (talk) 15:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong forwarding link 

message: Were they sanctioned for using the term "destructive cult", or just "destructive"? If it was the latter that doesn't seem relevant to this article. Cirt (talk) 17:21, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks better now.  Cirt (talk) 03:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  German government / Osho movement 

message: This article is amazingly sourced! Just plain unbelieveable. Thanks to all the editors! AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 16:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Although I'm only one of several editors who contributed to this article, its nice to know that someone appreciates our efforts. EmmDee (talk) 23:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow. Great article. 

message: Scientology should be covered in this article. --72.45.99.218 (talk) 04:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientology 

message: Blockquote formatting looks better than cquote. Cirt (talk) 21:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blockquote 

message: I reverted Cirt's deletion of Co$. Co$ is an archetypical destructive cult. They engage in systematic abuse of the legal system, for example. See Paulette Cooper and Lisa McPherson, for examples of criminal activities carried out against critics and members (although the McPherson article has been whitewashed). Around the time the FBI raided Co$ in Hollywood (using chainsaws to open file cabinets!), the cult filed false criminal charges against a former member who had taken bookkeeping evidence to the IRS. Several mysterious deaths and other wrongdoing are documented in The Road to Total Freedom and The Scandal of Scientology.  Wowest (talk) 08:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: your point would be better supported if you used the NPOV spelling of Scientology...however your current rendition by using the $ suggests that you hold strong opinions toward a particular point of view.  my problem with having Scientology in the "see also" section is that it is the only organization that is present, which puts undue weight upon that organization.  Why was Scientology chosen as opposed to say The Peoples Temple, Jones town, Heavens Gate, The Manson Family...or any number of other groups that qualify as a destructive cult without any real opposition to the classification?  The fact that the list consists of "lists of convicted religious leaders" "cult Suicides" and then one organization that does not fit the archetypal destructive cult (if an organization should be there it should be a suicide cult don't you think) lets me know that this isn't supposed to be a list of groups but a list to clarify the concept...and a group was added later.  I am going to remove it.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  $cientology 

message: See Talk:Destructive_cult/Archive_1#Sources_for_term_.27Destructive_Cult.27. Steven Hassan's is the most notable proponent of the term and not only in self-published materials. See note 8 in the article Combatting_Cult_Mind_Control., (published among others by 
Inner traditions and bear company) (I do not have access to the book). Andries (talk) 20:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steven Hassan's views are not just self published