Talk:Franz von Suppé

message: I am not sure, whether the family relation of Suppe with Donizetti is really true. It was not only a slander in Vienna because of surprising invitation of (in that time) unknown Suppe to Josephtadter Theather by its director Pokorny ???
However, it is true, that Suppe and Donizetti met in Vienna, becam to be a frends. Donizetti teached Suppe and probably (its is not sure) they went together to Italy.
:The family relation is mentioned by the Grove, and at least for me that's good enough. If you can find genealogical records to prove or disprove this, that would be great. If not, oh well. Dmetric 19:40, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The family relation of Suppè with Donizetti isn't true. It's wrong. --Popmuseum (talk) 11:53, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Family relation of Suppè with Donizetti

message: The German Wikipedia has just changed the spelling of his name to "Suppè" (grave accent); see: :de:Franz von Suppè & :de:Diskussion:Franz von Suppè. I found two online source which also uses this spelling: Operone & MSN Encarta (the English entry there uses "Suppé" (acute accent). Andrew Lamb at Grove Online uses "Suppé", as does the Encyclopædia Britannica and every other Wikipedia.
Should the English Wikipedia follow? I think not — althought the version "Suppè" should be mentioned. Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think the English Wikipedia should follow as the spelling "Suppè" was the way the artist himself wrote his name through his whole life. Anyone, who looks at the autographs of Suppès works can see it clearly. --Popmuseum (talk) 11:20, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The spelling "Suppè" at DE WP only lasted from February 2009 to January 2010. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:19, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: What a shame! :-)) --Popmuseum (talk) 13:31, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The German Wikipedia changed the spelling of his name to "Suppè" (grave accent); see: :de:Franz von Suppè & :de:Diskussion:Franz von Suppè. --Popmuseum (talk) 04:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Very few of the reputable sources cited in the article mention that spelling, so that doesn't make it his WP:COMMONNAME. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:15, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look at Verified spelling of the family name. --Popmuseum (talk) 17:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Suppé or Suppè?

message: Dichter und Bauer predates the first publication of I've been working on the railroad by about 50 years, and have an identical tune in them. Is it coincidence, or was it borrowed from von Suppe? Aaron Bruce (talk) 17:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the hint. Yes, you're right. The cello solo seems to have inspired "I've been working on the railroad". All the best --Popmuseum (talk) 16:58, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just copied the above passages to I've Been Working on the Railroad as it belongs there. All the best --Popmuseum (talk) 17:10, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  I've been working on the railroad? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Wikipedia does not have an article for the operetta, Dichter und Bauer. Does anyone care to create one? Hardly anything in English can be found about it in the Internet, though a German webpage has its plot summary. --Roland (talk) 00:53, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The German Wikpedia doesn't have an article, either. Their one attempt in 2007 was apparently a copy/paste from the plot at https://www.concentus-alius.de/archiv/repertoire/supp%C3%A9/. Reclam's Operettenführer says Suppé's music was only some incidental music to a play by Karl Elmar (Swiedack), not a proper operette. On the other hand, the source you give above (Sikorski, which was founded only in 1935) and this, http://www.operetten-lexikon.info/?menu=116, indicate that there might be an operetta score, but operetten-lexikon.info gives 1936 as its date, 40 years after Suppé's death. So, before attempting an article, it needs to established there is such a stage work. Has it ever been performed, recorded? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:00, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  An article for the operetta ''Dichter und Bauer'' (Poet and Peasant)? 

message: ===Suppè's ancestors weren't Belgian ===
Take a look at the German Wikipedia to learn that Suppè's ancestors weren't Belgian. Most of what we were told on Suppès ancestors, wife, children, grand-children and life is proofed to be weak (one might even say Fake News). --Popmuseum (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest to wait for the outcome of the discussion at :de:Diskussion:Franz von Suppé#Frisch recherchierte Monografien mit grundlegenden biografischen Korrekturen abwarten (2019: Suppès 200. Geburtstag) (you really need to trim your section headings) in deciding what weight can be afforded to Andreas Weigel and the music historian Robert Franz Müller with regards to Suppé – Müller is well known for his Beethoven and Schubert research (and Michael Lorenz asserts that he stole a number of documents from the Vienna archives), but whether a single article by Müller in a 1926 newspaper can be used to overturn Baker, Brockhaus, EB, Grove, MGG, H-D Roser remains to be seen. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:19, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's fine. Thank you for your answers. --Popmuseum (talk) 13:28, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way: Why should one not quote the biographical details given in Robert Franz Müller's article „Vom Jungen Franz v. Suppè. Neues aus alten Landrechtsakten“ („Neues Wiener Journal“. 17. März 1926, S.3) and in the press release by „Zeitbrücke-Museum“ on Suppès 200th birthday in the article on Suppè? All the best --Popmuseum (talk) 07:47, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

text: "He was invited to Vienna by Franz Pokorny"? Suppè's mother moved to Vienna as a widow with her sixteen years old orphan Franz in autumn 1835. --Popmuseum (talk) 10:26, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, there's are no longer doubts that Suppè's name should be written "Suppè" because that's the way he and his ancestors who were civil servants in the service of the Austrian Empire wrote their name even in official gazettes and official registers. --Popmuseum (talk) 10:59, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you are familiar with WP:RS and WP:V. They work both ways – they need to be applied to support claims in the article  they need to be reported here where they exist. We can't simply ignore that Peter Branscombe and Dorothea Link in Grove, and others (see above), assert his Belgian descent, his law studies in Padua, and that he was distantly related to Donizetti. At minimum, research discrepancies need to be discussed and properly referenced in the article. We can't just throw out all expert literature and take Andreas Weigel's musings on his personal website as definitive. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:21, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your kind feedback. I'm sorry to be in a hurry that's why I quoted the Stars-in-Gars-Website only. I just could not longer stand the unproved legends on Suppè's life. In June 2019 you'll see that they were all made up. Until then you can take a look at the Stars-in-Gars-Website, where all the new proved facts are discussed in detail with documents: Presseinformation des „Zeitbrücke-Museums“ zum Suppè-Jahr 2019. All the best --Popmuseum (talk) 14:29, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  No more Fake News on Suppè 

message: Take a look at the German Wikipedia to learn that Suppè's ancestors weren't Belgian. Most of what we were told on Suppès ancestors, wife, children, grand-children and life is proofed to be weak (one might even say Fake News). --Popmuseum (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest to wait for the outcome of the discussion at :de:Diskussion:Franz von Suppé#Frisch recherchierte Monografien mit grundlegenden biografischen Korrekturen abwarten (2019: Suppès 200. Geburtstag) (you really need to trim your section headings) in deciding what weight can be afforded to Andreas Weigel and the music historian Robert Franz Müller with regards to Suppé – Müller is well known for his Beethoven and Schubert research (and Michael Lorenz asserts that he stole a number of documents from the Vienna archives), but whether a single article by Müller in a 1926 newspaper can be used to overturn Baker, Brockhaus, EB, Grove, MGG, H-D Roser remains to be seen. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:19, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's fine. Thank you for your answers. --Popmuseum (talk) 13:28, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way: Why should one not quote the biographical details given in Robert Franz Müller's article „Vom Jungen Franz v. Suppè. Neues aus alten Landrechtsakten“ („Neues Wiener Journal“. 17. März 1926, S.3) and in the press release by „Zeitbrücke-Museum“ on Suppès 200th birthday in the article on Suppè? All the best --Popmuseum (talk) 07:47, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

text: "He was invited to Vienna by Franz Pokorny"? Suppè's mother moved to Vienna as a widow with her sixteen years old orphan Franz in autumn 1835. --Popmuseum (talk) 10:26, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, there's are no longer doubts that Suppè's name should be written "Suppè" because that's the way he and his ancestors who were civil servants in the service of the Austrian Empire wrote their name even in official gazettes and official registers. --Popmuseum (talk) 10:59, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume you are familiar with WP:RS and WP:V. They work both ways – they need to be applied to support claims in the article  they need to be reported here where they exist. We can't simply ignore that Peter Branscombe and Dorothea Link in Grove, and others (see above), assert his Belgian descent, his law studies in Padua, and that he was distantly related to Donizetti. At minimum, research discrepancies need to be discussed and properly referenced in the article. We can't just throw out all expert literature and take Andreas Weigel's musings on his personal website as definitive. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:21, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your kind feedback. I'm sorry to be in a hurry that's why I quoted the Stars-in-Gars-Website only. I just could not longer stand the unproved legends on Suppè's life. In June 2019 you'll see that they were all made up. Until then you can take a look at the Stars-in-Gars-Website, where all the new proved facts are discussed in detail with documents: Presseinformation des „Zeitbrücke-Museums“ zum Suppè-Jahr 2019. All the best --Popmuseum (talk) 14:29, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Suppè's ancestors weren't Belgian 

message: If you're interested in facts on Franz von Suppès grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great- grandfather you should take a look at Zu Franz von Suppès erfundenem belgischen Großvater. All the best --Popmuseum (talk) 05:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facts on Franz von Suppès grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great- grandfather 

message: The favoured name "Francesco Ezechiele Ermenegildo Cavaliere Suppè-Demelli" seems to be some kind of "Hadschi Halef Omar Ben Hadschi Abul Abbas Ibn Hadschi Dawuhd al Gossarah". Referred to the "baptismal certificate" Franz von Suppè was baptized "Francesco-Ezechiele-Ermenegildo" de Suppè (for instance: Keller p.15, Schneidereit p.10). --Popmuseum (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fake News: Francesco Ezechiele Ermenegildo Cavaliere Suppè-Demelli 

message: So 'four dozen' is now 'about 30'? Not according to my calculation, and I used to teach maths. Come on, Wikipedia really is a joke.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.122.83 (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of operettas

message: The refutation by Robert Franz Müller, Vladimir Haklik and Andreas Weigel of the alleged Belgian or Austro-Dutch origin, to which the French spelling "Suppé" was due, led to a renewed return to the Italian spelling of the surname with accent grave, "Suppè". It can be read in this way in Suppé's autographs, in official documents and deeds, such as in the death entry of Suppé's son Ferdinand in 1847 and in Suppé's last official registration slip in 1887. As early as 1941, in his dissertation, Julius Kromer named the composer himself as the "chief witness" for the officially attested Italian spelling of the family name: "In his letters and notebooks, on self-written sheet music and librettos, there is everywhere only one name and one signature: Suppè. This is the composer's clearly declared will, which alone we have to observe and which we have been able to document a hundred times over."
This Italian spelling is the way Suppè's father already wrote the family name when, as district office secretary, he officially signed official announcements published in the Official Gazette of Zara (Zadar). Furthermore, Vladimir Haklik refers to historical files that were signed by Suppè's grandfather himself with "Suppè". The marriage entry of Franz von Suppè's great-great-grandparents Georg and Antonia Suppè, dated 9 February 1722, also proves the Italian spelling of the surname, which means that this spelling of the surname is officially attested for well over a century (marriage entry of 1722, registration slip of 1887).
Accordingly, Suppè did not write his surname with an Italian accent grave in order to be considered Italian, but because his ancestors had demonstrably used their surname in this way since 1722 and he had Italian ancestors through his great-great-grandfather born around 1700 in Grobnik and his great-great-grandmother born around 1700 in Fiume (Rijeka). The home of the Suppè family, at least since 1700, was the Adriatic coastal strip between Fiume (Rijeka) and Makarska. Italian was the official language there, even long after Suppè moved to Vienna, his mother's home town, in 1835. The widespread spelling Suppé with accent Aigu is therefore just as erroneous as the spelling without any accent. (Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) --Popmuseum (talk) 17:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia usually doesn't care much about historical truth, but follows WP:COMMONNAME. Haydn used Josephus and Giuseppe; some of Beethoven's works were published under Luigi and Louis, Mozart almost never used Wolfgang Amadeus but preferred Amadè or Amadé; but the common name for them settled on the form we use today. I suggest that as long as Britannica and Grove and Großes Sängerlexikon use Suppé (aigu), Wikipedia follows that usage. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:02, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Verified spelling of the family name

message: In 2019, Suppè researcher Andreas Weigel was able to demonstrate, through the results of his systematic genealogical-biographical research, that key aspects of Suppè's biography and genealogy, hitherto considered certain, had been flawed, questionable and in need of correction for over a century.  For example, Suppè dedicated his setting of the Schiller poem An Emma to his later wife Therese Merville (1816-1865) as early as 1838, which is why he cannot have met her (as has been unanimously handed down until now) only in 1841.  Just as little biographical information was known about his first wife as about their children (Anna (1842-1879), Peter (1844-1894), Ferdinand (1847-1847), Therese (1850-1899) and Franz (1851-1851)) and their relationship to Adolf von Boog, Philippine von Edelsberg, Arthur Schnitzler and Rosa and Karl Streitmann. In addition, Suppè's mother's maiden name, Jandowsky, was incorrectly passed down as Landovsky in all biographies for a century, which is why the origin of Suppè's maternal ancestors from Brno in Moravia and Munich in Bavaria remained hidden. Suppè's alleged studies of medicine and law (in Bologna, Padua and Vienna respectively) are inventions.
His paternal ancestors, supposedly from Belgium or the Austrian Netherlands or Cremona, were in fact from Fiume (Rijeka), Karlobag and Senj, and he met his second wife Sofie Strasser (1841-1926), probably the librettist of his operetta Pique Dame (1864), as early as 1860 (not as late as 1864).
The question remains unanswered as to why Suppè - like his two wives - usually made himself a year younger (against his better judgement) by giving 18 April 1820 as the basis for his round birthdays celebrated by the public, even though he was demonstrably born in 1819.  (Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) --Popmuseum (talk) 17:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: On 5 August 2022, Suppè researcher Andreas Weigel (Popmuseum ) himself wrote the above post about himself. Is there no way to stop such vain windbags from constantly promoting their own pathetic persona?--Suessmayr (talk) 17:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: A last goodbye to Suppè's made up biography

message: The article seemed to me gravely unbalanced, with, as it then was, 32% of the text about Suppé's life, 24% about his music and 38% about how to spell his name. I have added some material about life and works and footnoted most of the exhaustive excursus about grave-v-acute accents – out of the way of the main text but there for those, if any, who are interested. I am very far from being an expert on Suppé and I hope editors with more expertise than I have will look in and add to or amend what I have written. Tim riley talk 14:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor overhaul