Talk:Out of India theory/Archive 3

message: I have started dePOVizating the article bit by bit but it is extremely tedious work. As it is now each section presents an argument in favour of the OIT, but in a very obfuscating manner making the argument look like some kind of semifact. Further more when it mentions counterarguments it does it in a way that is clearly intended to put the counter arguments in a bad light as nonsensical or unreasonable. Further more each section ends with a little coda that present the argument as the only reasonable one. Not acceptable and certainly POV.
I am trying to make it obvious in each section what is the argument, who proposes what and what counter arguments are presented by the mainstream side. Sometimes I cannot refer to a particular source but the counter argument is so obvious that I include it in my own wording - it is better that it is a little balanced and then it can be sourced later. I also remove excessive sourcing of arguments - the article is way too long and spends way too much space explaining and providing sources to things that it doesn't really explain anyway. Sometimes less is more - this is one of those times.
Maunus 12:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate the effort you are putting in this.  As I mentioned earlier, I am new to WP and my strength is research not writing.  Most of the edits that you and Paul have done are definitely an improvement. I will take this as learning.Sbhushan 15:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And I appreciate the amount of research you have done and the effort you have put into building this new layout of the page. But most of all I appreciate your responsivee opeen minded attitude.Thanks. Maunus 15:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: De-POVization

message: ===Indo Iranian and Avesta===
Dab, in the section you inserted "Talageri (chapter 6) (...)the east." instead of "Talageri states (...)that the Saptasindhu or Hapta-HAndu was a homeland of the Iranians."  Talageris statement from Chapter 6 is
2. The Rigveda and the Avesta, as we saw, are united in testifying to the fact that the Punjab (Saptasindhu or Hapta-HAndu) was not a homeland of the Vedic Aryans, but was a homeland of the Iranians.   Please verify [].
While what you quoted is also statement from chapter 6, it is not accurate representation of Talageri's position.  So I am changing it back.  You should not misrepresent authors position.Sbhushan 01:31, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so what's Elst's date for the RV? Elst has a 5th millennium emigration from India. If OIT takes place in the 5th millennium, how is it relevant if the RV dates to the 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th millennium? It will be irrelevant to OIT either way. Now a 2nd millennium date is accepted as practically certain for the early RV. It is really just painfully obvious. You can stretch things and argue for a surprisingly early date, in the late or mid 3rd millennium (Mature Harappan). That is a shaky argument, but with a lot of hand-waving, you can at least build a shaky case. A 4th millennium date for the RV, however, is simply completely beyond any rational debate, and firmly within the realm of "magic space Aryans". It will do this article no good, as I have argued many times, to conflate raving nonsense by people who don't know the first thing about ancient literature, the Bronze Age or philology, with reasonable if far-fetched pro-OIT arguments. You can cite Knapp, Frawley, Tilak and their like, arguing for a Rigveda composed by paleolithic cyborg Aryans on the North pole, but please do not mix this up with a rational debate on OIT. I am only interested in the latter. Do take Aryan mysticism to some other article, thankyou. dab (ᛏ) 09:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Sbhushan, I am growing tired of you accusing me because you cannot cite your sources properly (sidenote, I am removing WIN's parrotting as white noise). Let us not even address the blatant bias you are trying to sell us as "edited for npov", it would be enough if we didn't have to double-check each of your references because you are unable to cite even OIT proponents accurately and reliably. Alleging that "Aryan civilization" was "spread over 1.5 million km" doesn't show ignorance, it shows complete and utter cluelessness on any topic common knowledge whatsoever. I assume your sources are talking of square kilometers. A square kilometer is not the same as a kilometer. It is fair enough to omit the 'square' by mistake, but to then come arguing with me instead of just silently correcting your mistake is simply hilarious. If Aryans were spread over "1.5 million km", they were settling far beyond the moon (probably in svargaloka or what?) I wouldn't be surprised if WIN or you thought there were ancient Aryan colonies on the moon, but I have serious doubts Kazanas would go so far. dab (ᛏ) 11:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dab's edits 

message: Dab, in the section you inserted "Talageri (chapter 6) (...)the east." instead of "Talageri states (...)that the Saptasindhu or Hapta-HAndu was a homeland of the Iranians."  Talageris statement from Chapter 6 is
2. The Rigveda and the Avesta, as we saw, are united in testifying to the fact that the Punjab (Saptasindhu or Hapta-HAndu) was not a homeland of the Vedic Aryans, but was a homeland of the Iranians.   Please verify [].
While what you quoted is also statement from chapter 6, it is not accurate representation of Talageri's position.  So I am changing it back.  You should not misrepresent authors position.Sbhushan 01:31, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Indo Iranian and Avesta

message: Dab, your edit "The date at which it was composed, in the mainstream view the mid to late 2nd millennium BC (Late Harappan), is a firm terminus ante quem for the presence of the Vedic Aryans in India.[16]" is implying that mainstream date is a fact WP:NPOV.  I am suggesting this should be worded as
The date at which it was composed is a firm terminus ante quem for the presence of the Vedic Aryans in India.  In the mainstream view it was composed the mid to late 2nd millennium BC (Late Harappan) and OIT proponent propose a pre-Harappan date.
This will be more balanced wording.  This change I have not made, as at some point you have suggested few different dates Renfrew (very early), Propola (2 waves), Witzel (1900) and standard date of 1500-1200. So pick one, I am OK with any.  OIT is proposing date of composition pre-Harappan, please see details in the Saraswati and Item not in RV. You have right to disagree, but this is OIT position.Sbhushan 01:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so what's Elst's date for the RV? Elst has a 5th millennium emigration from India. If OIT takes place in the 5th millennium, how is it relevant if the RV dates to the 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th millennium? It will be irrelevant to OIT either way. Now a 2nd millennium date is accepted as practically certain for the early RV. It is really just painfully obvious. You can stretch things and argue for a surprisingly early date, in the late or mid 3rd millennium (Mature Harappan). That is a shaky argument, but with a lot of hand-waving, you can at least build a shaky case. A 4th millennium date for the RV, however, is simply completely beyond any rational debate, and firmly within the realm of "magic space Aryans". It will do this article no good, as I have argued many times, to conflate raving nonsense by people who don't know the first thing about ancient literature, the Bronze Age or philology, with reasonable if far-fetched pro-OIT arguments. You can cite Knapp, Frawley, Tilak and their like, arguing for a Rigveda composed by paleolithic cyborg Aryans on the North pole, but please do not mix this up with a rational debate on OIT. I am only interested in the latter. Do take Aryan mysticism to some other article, thankyou. dab (ᛏ) 09:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Philology

message: Dab, your edits are showing your ignorance about the subject matter.  Please read Bryant (2001, chapter 9 page 157 - 1 million mile = 1.7 million Kilometer), Asko Parpola - Study of the Indus Script, S.R. Rao (1991:1), Kazanas (2000:12).  If you want to contribute to the article, please read published material from good sources.  Every word that I have written in the docuemt in properly referenced.  If you doubt something, please put  and I will address your questions.  I am trying to work with you to resolve the issues in a reasonable manner, but there is only so much that I can do alone.  Making arbitary deletes are not helping the matters.  Your edit are not WP:NPOV.  All of your edits are controversial in nature, please get consensus before making the edits.Sbhushan 01:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sbhushan, I am growing tired of you accusing me because you cannot cite your sources properly (sidenote, I am removing WIN's parrotting as white noise). Let us not even address the blatant bias you are trying to sell us as "edited for npov", it would be enough if we didn't have to double-check each of your references because you are unable to cite even OIT proponents accurately and reliably. Alleging that "Aryan civilization" was "spread over 1.5 million km" doesn't show ignorance, it shows complete and utter cluelessness on any topic common knowledge whatsoever. I assume your sources are talking of square kilometers. A square kilometer is not the same as a kilometer. It is fair enough to omit the 'square' by mistake, but to then come arguing with me instead of just silently correcting your mistake is simply hilarious. If Aryans were spread over "1.5 million km", they were settling far beyond the moon (probably in svargaloka or what?) I wouldn't be surprised if WIN or you thought there were ancient Aryan colonies on the moon, but I have serious doubts Kazanas would go so far. dab (ᛏ) 11:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: edit in place name section