Talk:Free-to-play

message: The article says high system requirements is a problem that can be solved by FTP. It should be explained, why. A full price game can be developed with low system requirements while FTP can also be designed with the latest tech in mind and high requirements.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.144.118.2 (talk) 12:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, that explanation doesnt make any sense. System requirements have nothing to do with the business model. --186.50.185.76 (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: "System requirements"

message: You can use the term "free-to-play", sure, but is it actually used professionally? I'd call software that is "free-to-play" freeware. And "Some of these games have both a free version and a Pay-to-play version that offers the full version of the game and all of the updates" sounds like shareware to me. And even if "free-to-play" is valid as a term of its own, an article isn't needed to tell the reader what can already be concluded from the name. There are currently 7 articles linking to free-to-play (excluding talk pages).
– Andreas Blixt ☺ 21:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: freeware implies everything is free. In F2P games it is only playing that is free, but there are always a lot of features that can be bought only with real money. Shinhan 09:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This term is extremely common, actually, and there are quite a few games which use it. Advertisements were recently run for the game Warhawk which used the term to mean that the online portion of the game did not require a subscription (I believe games such as SOCOM on the Playstation 2 required a subscription to play online). Many MMOs, particularly ones out of Korea and China, use free-to-play business models (most are so-called micro-transaction models, meaning that players use real money to buy virtual game items). Many articles could link to this, but do not because the games are not well-known. Nonetheless, the page needs cleanup. --Anon 121.209.160.15 (talk) 13:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

text: You could have just done that yourself, 72.205.55.209 ~ R.T.G 22:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Free-to-play"

message: Should a list of F2P games be put on this article? Should those games be in an F2P category? --92.104.55.141 (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I vote no, if only because the nightmarish amount of work that would be involved in maintaining a list of that nature. There are literally hundreds of F2P MMO games in the Western market alone. Opening it up to all F2P non-MMO flash/etc. games would put that number into the thousands, if not tens of thousands. Now, compound that for every market around the world, different localizations, etc. You get the idea. Netgoth (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  List/category? 

message: Just turn this into a part of the Freeware article, perhaps?  I dunno, this is somewhat stubby.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.99.1 (talk) 21:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely not, since freeware and free-to-play are arguably complete opposites.  They could of course be included in article describing all software business models, but that is not what you said. -- EsotericRogue Talk 00:40, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with Freeware? 

message: How comes this is in this article 'has allowed Mojang, the company behind the game, to release a full version of Minecraft in November 2011.' according to my calendar it is still August 2011. So why does it say 'allowED [...] to release [...] in November 2011' so why does it sound as if November has already passed? 62.159.242.114 (talk) 07:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed it to "will allow". I used "has allowed" initially because I was trying to say that it allowed the company to prepare for a November 2011 release. i.e. They were so confident in the product that they were willing to say that a full version would come on X date in the future. Gary King (talk · scripts) 12:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Minecraft isn't even free to play. Irrelevant material removed. GDallimore (Talk) 14:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glassball? 

message: I was surprised we didn't have an article on microtransactions, which is a pretty significant topic related to the balloning F2P model, so I've started an article on the subject. I felt it was worthwile to create it a separate article from this one, as this article is already quite long, addresses only video games, and with consideration that microtransactions are also found in some paid games (for example TF2 before it went free, the buyable map-pack in Angry Birds Star Wars, etc). However, I've noticed we now have articles on the following distinct but heavily related topics:
*Free-to-play
*Micropayment - a very small transaction of money in a digital environment; the term seems more general than microtransaction and might for example include buying an MP3 for a dollar or a newspaper article for 50 cents in addition to buying an in-game item or what have you
*Virtual good - a digital/virtual good (such as an in-game item) that can be purchased via micropayment
*Microtransaction - the exchange of a micropayment for a virtual good or a small feature
*Freemium - an application that is free but offers microtransactions or subscription services
These concepts are all distinct (freemium can apply to software besides games, a microtransaction is specific to the purchase of an item or feature used inside an application and can occur outside of free games) but there is a lot of room for overlap between them, and I'm not sure how to break up the material or whether some of the articles should be merged. Any input on the subject would be appreciated. Some guy (talk) 06:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freemium/Virtual good/Micropayment/Microtransaction 

message: http://www.gtaf.com.ar/
removing this link for now but would like discussion in the future about the website in question.
It is linked as a "list of free to play games" but only contains 1 game, the rest are "waiting to be filled out" and contain nothing more than a placeholder with no name of the game or timeline to show when, if ever, the rest of the list will be filled out.
The website link therefore is misleading, and the website itself actually seems to be stealth advertising (we get a lot of that here on wikipedia, let's be honest) as opposed to a legitimate attempt at cataloging every free to play game in existence.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.91.180 (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  http://www.gtaf.com.ar/ 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Jim Sterling uses this term liberally when discussing full priced games with microtransactions that should be in Free-to-Play games. Is it worth talking about here or somewhere? Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 16:58, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fee-To-Pay 

message: There are the authors who are trying to protect a hidden business. I noticed this tendency, with the pay-to-win definition. Someone is trying to remove posts about this model. Since there is no no-pay-to-win then there must also be pay-to-win logic. Pay-to-win models are the whole mass. These are the games in which the payment very strongly interferes with the game-play, allowing any player to change the game-play. In a word, payment is an element of the game that can affect the game progression. Many developers of such games do not like when their game so defined, because they become less prestigious. Players do not value such games where the skill of playing is not counted but paying. Imagine a poker game in which a player would pay for a card he might get, does that make sense? In a word of game some developers have very aggressive politic, I personally encountered this. Such politic is in Call of Word, where every discussion about pay-to-win on forum is removed and player could be banned for certain period of time. This is the most extreme situation I have ever encountered.
 
Please take note of and respond to such authors who remove this model and report it as malicious authors of Wikipedia!--Darek555 (talk) 08:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you link to some examples of this happening? ~Mable (chat) 09:38, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  What link do You mean ? To author who remove pay-to-win mode, this You can check in editor history, or to banned account in Call of War ? If You want check ban in Call of War just make account in this game and in forum and add post with theme like "If Call of War is Pay to Win" ?, first You will get email with alert from moderators that Your post is unproper, and post will be removed, if You will reaped this problem You will be banned, or You just don't understand pay-to-win mode ? Some definition You can find in link/cites I add in main Article. I think that there should be described such game in separate section something like: payment policy of game developers, I think this is important--Darek555 (talk) 10:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, it's this edit that prompted you to bring this up? Interesting issue. I'm honestly not even entirely sure what the "Pay models" section is for. "No-pay-to-win" is never explained, pay to play seems unrelated and should probably only be listed in the "See also" section. Crowdfunding is never explained in the article either. Shouldn't we just... delete this section? Pay-to-win is thoroughly described in the "Negative impact" section. ~Mable (chat) 10:47, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Do You suggest that section Pay models is unnecessary, then for what is this free to play topic ? Do You suggest that pay models like no pay to win, pay to play, pay to win are not commonly ? And like I remember are You that person who fight with me that in Path of Exile is no permadeath mode ? :),  ?--Darek555 (talk) 11:23, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The list of "pay models" as it existed earlier today was vague and unsourced. It listed some terms, including "Pay-to-win", but didn't provide any context or explanation. I'd rather see these terms being explained in prose, as is done in the "criticism" section. I hope this solves the issue with this article. And yeah, I think I do remember talking with someone with your grammar structure about permadeath at some point. I don't really remember that incident all that well, though. ~Mable (chat) 12:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

text:  For what I should contact with Call of War ? like I see there is described Dota2, Word of Tank etc, what do You suggest ?--Darek555 (talk) 11:23, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You mentioned above that moderators on the Call of War forums were deleting any posts describing its payment model as "pay to win". That's too bad. I can't find any reliable sources commenting on the issue, however, so this isn't particularly relevant to Wikipedia. In fact, the game itself isn't even notable! Wikipedia is not the right place to right great wrongs, so to speak. If your intention is to confront Bytro Labs with this issue, Wikipedia isn't the place for it. ~Mable (chat) 12:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pay to Win - Solidarity alert for real Editors ! 

message: I think it should be changed or removed. This is authors creativity based on describing of Dota2. For me this is a hidden advertisement and it should be removed as soon as possible. When I try add information about other games with other payment implementation it is removed. For me this is hidden commercial protection. Either game examples are examples or not, let's decide ! For me this is commercial protection.--Darek555 (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not understanding the situation at all. You additions have been removed because you're trying to use a messageboard as a source. Per WP:USERG, this cannot be used as a source. Additionally, Call of War is not a very good example because it doesn't have its own Wikipedia article, or any other context around it. Examples like Dota 2 are used because its an example that is much more likely to be known and understood by the reader, especially with it having its own article. It's mention is not promotional in nature at all, its a very neutral, natural listing of the title. No offense, but I really think you need to slow down and learn about Wikipedia a little more. You seem to be jumping straight in without really understanding how the website works, and clashing with everyone as a result. Sergecross73 msg me 16:13, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing section the Criticism 

message: I think this article should be expanded to cover different payment models in general, instead of just "Free-to-play" which by itself I think only merits a dictionary entry. Is there enough material out there to build such an article from? SharkD  Talk  23:18, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I.e. something like Pricing strategies, but for video games. SharkD  Talk  23:20, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: F2P has a history, and an effect on the industry, so it wouldn't be reduced to just a dic def.  But I think a comparison of video game pricing models might deserve an article, even without changing this one.  Once it was created, it should be easier to see how info between this article and that one could be distributed.  --A D Monroe III(talk)  23:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Payment models 

message: In section 'Criticism':
Some suggest finding a balance between a game that encourages players to pay for extra content that enhances the game without making the free version feel limited by comparison.[35]
* the sentence meaning is not clear;
* Some is a weasel word;
* the sentence structure does not follow the proper pattern "... balance between A and B". There is no B in this sentence.
In response to concerns about players using payments to gain an advantage in game, titles such as World of Tanks have explicitly committed to not giving paying players any advantages over their non-paying peers, while allowing the users buying the "gold" or "premium" ammo and expendables without paying the real money.
* the sentence is too long and unclear (especially the second part). It should probably be split into two sentences, the first one ending at "...over their non-paying peers";
* premium should not be quoted;  
* the 2nd part of the sentence is either:  
** incomplete: '... while allowing the users buying the "gold ...' - to do what?
** or was intended to mean something else, most likely something like: 'The game accomplishes this by allowing users to buy premium ("gold") ammo and expendables using both, in-game currency ("silver") and real money'.
Aenchevich (talk) 09:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Some sentences meaning is not clear - need logic, style and grammar improvements

message: As a first time visitor to http://www.pcgamesarchive.com/, I was left clueless as to where the free-to-play list was located on their site. Using their search textbox for "free to play" returned "Fallout 4" as the only result (probably because of the keyword "free"); "f2p" and "free-to-play" both returned nothing. That left me thinking "why is this site listed in the external links of this wikipedia page as a large database of free-to-play games for PC?" After some digging through the wayback machine, I found that their home page layout was changed between July 28th, 2017 and August 28th, 2017. In their new current layout, the link to the free-to-play list (located at http://www.pcgamesarchive.com/free-pc-games/) is nowhere to be found. How should this be handled? --BryghtShadow (talk) 14:57, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link to "pcgamesarchive" 

message: I suggest removing the word "derisively" from the sentence "Free-to-play's model is sometimes derisively referred to as free-to-start due to not being entirely free." because it is a more correct term. – Gebu (talk) 12:15, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Free-to-start" 

message: I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding about how we define free-to-play and freeware. Free-to-play is a business model and the video game equivalent of freemium. Freeware denotes any software, including video games, that is distributed to the end-user at no charge. By definition, freeware is copyrighted with usually unreleased source code. That said, the two are similar, except that free-to-play games are freeware games that charge players for more features. This book defines freeware games as games that are strictly free to play (the book long predates the business model sense as described in the Wikipedia article). More specifically, this book says that freemium software is a type of freeware with paid "premium" features. Note that the claim that free-to-play and freeware are mutually exclusive appears only in the lead and the word freeware does not in the only citation given to the paragraph. I would propose changing the lead so that it says that the article subject is a type of freeware game. If necessary, I would also propose expanding the article to describe the similarities and differences between freeware and free-to-play, writing that the two are freely available proprietary software with essentially the same licensing restrictions but often different pricing strategies. FreeMediaKid$ 23:25, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, it may be better to write that free-to-play contrasts with the buy-to-play model, rather than freeware. Also, I struck out part of my original post as I did not feel that it supported my argument. FreeMediaKid$ 23:47, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: "Freeware denotes any software, including video games, that is distributed to the end-user at no charge." No, it denotes software that is free with no caveats. If I download freeware I would not expect to be asked to pay to unlock the rest of the game. No changes are necessary here.  ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:33, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

text: I don't understand really what change you are proposing. That "Free-to-play" is a form of freeware rather than a freemium model? That is simply wrong. "Free-to-play" is simply the concept of freemium as applied to video games. You seem focused on the fact that a single citation appears in the lead, but it's there to source the term "free-to-start", and normally the lead should be free of citations altogether. The entire mass of terms is a mess though, but "Free to play" is clearly on top of the freemium pile. -- ferret (talk) 13:35, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

text: Based on the description you gave for "Freemium", an example would be a "Premium Account" for a game like World of Tanks Blitz. Yes the game is free, however there is also some premium features you can buy that make your experience somewhat better (so in the case of WoTB you get some extra currency and XP for each battle).BUt that appears to still be the exact same as free-to-play (which is exactly what the name says, the game is free to play). Free to play, but there may or may not be some things you can purchase in-game with real money. So from what I'm understanding, "Freemium" just specifies that the free-to-play game has things in-game that you can purchase with real money. Feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 17:03, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No one would refer to a game in which all features are without cost as a 'free-to-play' game, the term means that some portion is pay-gated. MrOllie (talk) 17:30, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh? What would be the correct term be then? ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 17:34, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The current article lead explains it well. 'Free-to-play' is almost a synonym for 'Freemium' - one is specific to games, one is for all software. Games in which all features are without cost are called 'freeware' or just 'free'. MrOllie (talk) 17:44, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah alright. Thanks for explaining. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 18:07, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

text: From what I can see, Freemium is seen as a form of Freeware. Free-to-play though is literally Freemium-as-applied-to-video-games. -- ferret (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

text: As it turns out, the discussion dates as far back as 2006, and in retrospect, I should have checked for and read such discussions before starting this one. I regret the haste. However, the way I analyze the articles and even the category tells me that there is still confusion among editors about how to classify freeware and free-to-play/freemium. This discussion now seeks to settle the issue. FreeMediaKid$ 20:20, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it can be difficult. These are terms which were thought up by marketing types to move units (even if that means confusing the consumer), not to create clear categories with firm, definitive boundaries. - MrOllie (talk) 20:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

text: Settle what issue? The categories appear correct. Free-to-play/freemium is as sub-sect of freeware. -- ferret (talk) 21:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

text: I think you misunderstood. There is only one 'version' in free-to-play - a version which is generally throwing up lots of prompts to get you to buy things to use in the game. That is what makes for a free-to-play game - the in game microtransactions and/or aggressive advertising of same. - MrOllie (talk) 01:02, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I never thought of that before. I did not consider free-to-play games as premium in the sense that they that still cost money, but not to play them. Until then, I had assumed that the nature of free-to-play (and freemium) was dependent upon the player's decision on whether to purchase microtransactions. In other words, I thought that freemium software without paid content would count as freeware, while those with premium features would not. This leads me to only one question left. Some freemium products come in several editions. For example, Microsoft Visual Studio comes in three editions. One of them, Visual Studio Community, is distributed free of charge. As its own package, it has all of the aspects of freeware based on my original catch-all understanding of the term. The other two editions are the packages containing premium features. Of the three editions, I could argue that one of them is freeware since that version is its own software without any features disabled and is not asking for payments in exchange for more content. The other editions are the software with the paid content. I will concede that this argument is pointless in the context of video games since there is no way that developers would release them separately. One will almost certainly never find a commercial game that is sold in multiple editions, one of which is freeware. Basically, I do not see freeware and freemium as being entirely mutually exclusive, but I may be missing something vital that would refute my argument, hence the question. FreeMediaKid$ 14:41, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Free-to-play and freeware