Talk:Latrodectus mactans

message: The article is somewhat confusing on this point - perhaps someone can offer some clarification.
"The female live on for 180 days after maturing, while a male only lives on for another ninety days"
:(1) Please sign your postings.
:(2) New stuff should go at the bottom. Otherwise it's like to get ignored because people won't reread the "old" stuff at the top
:(3) The listing of precise numbers of days is a bit silly. Nobody's days are numbered to that degree of specificity, unless God keeps busy making individual termination dates.  I don't have a book on hand that states what their life span is.  I know from personal observation that the adult females winter over and that probably means that they begin laying new clutches of eggs as soon as the weather is warm enough. Female spiders, like bees, can keep the semen from a mating safe in special receptacles in their bodies, and release the sperm to fertilize eggs when the time comes.  So it is possible that the early egg masses are fertilized with sperm stored from a mating or matings of the previous summer. That would mean that they might do very nicely during the spring without males to mate with. Early hatchings would provide a fresh supply of males for matings to occur later in the summer. So a three month difference in theoretical life span might have something to do with the females wintering over and the males dying in the fall -- but that is all speculation on my part.  Unfortunately, whoever wrote that part did not leave us any citations. Google may provide a lead to something on the University of California at Riverside site, or some similar dependable site.  Give it a try. P0M 06:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How long do the males live? 

message: After I saw a huge black spider on the wall of my basement bathroom last night before I turned in (wish  I hadn't gone in there -- turning on the light was a terrible move), I checked this article's pictures and descriptions. All I know is that it was big and black, I'm totally scared of spiders (especially ones as big as that one), and that I'm just even more creeped out than before. >>
You didn't say where you live. If you saw a black spider on the wall, it in all likelihood was not a black widow spider. The only dangerous spiders in the U.S. that are black are the black widows. (They generally have a little red too.)
:Uh, could we add a section on their adolescent stage I saw one these but smaller only I am not certain as to if it really was one or not. how can you tell if it is one. it is black with red on it but has a much smaller abdomen and I swear I see an hour glass,  scary stuff.--70.139.85.43 (talk) 16:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A species made in the bowels of Hell 

message: "Black widow spiders live in temperate and tropical zones (McCorkle, 2002). They typically prey on a variety of insects, but occasionally they do feed upon woodlice, diplopods, chilopods and other arachnids (McCorkle, 2002). When the prey is entangled by the web, L. mactans quickly comes out of its retreat, wraps the prey securely in its strong web, then punctures and poisons its prey (Foelix, 1982). The venom takes about ten minutes to take effect, meanwhile the prey is held tightly by the spider (Foelix, 1982). When movements of the prey cease, digestive enzymes are released into the wound (Foelix, 1982). The black widow spider then carries its prey back to its retreat before feeding (Foelix, 1982)."
I don't know the proper form, but this seems a bit misused.
Themightychris 09:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's not the best format for citations in this kind of article. The worst part is that whoever supplied that paragraph failed to give page numbers and book titles. Leaving it the way it is would be better than deleting the citations. Somebody could look for the book that the original writer used, dig out some page numbers, and set up some footnotes. P0M 15:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough citations? 

message: This subject was discussed above, a while ago, but without much resolution:
Does the term "black widow", absent any regional qualifier like "western" or "northern", refer only to L. mactans, or does it also refer to L. hesperus and L. variolus, the other two species commonly referred to as "black widow" in North America?  From what I can tell by looking at the literature, it can be argued both ways; I've seen examples of papers and other authorative sources referring to L. hesperus as the "black widow", without the "western" prefix.  (Especially here in Oregon, where L. mactans and L. variolus are not found).  
The general public (in US), for the most part, is unaware of the difference(s) between the species; and in order to really tell them apart reliably you have to get them under the microscope.  Wikipedia generally uses common names for things, which suggests that L. hesperus and L. variolus ought to be more fully described in this article.  As the species have more in common than in distinction, this makes more sense than writing separate articles for the northern and western widows.
I wouldn't extend this treatment to other widow spiders like Latrodectus tredecimguttatus, which are occasionally referred to as "black widows" in English but are called something else (Karakurt, etc) in the languages natively spoken in their range.
--EngineerScotty 20:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure of the history of species differentiation/identification.  Kaston's edition of 1953 does not mention any U.S. species other than mactans, and the descriptions he gives make it seem to me that he and his colleagues at that time were identifying all U.S. widow spiders as L. mactans. If that is the case, "black widow" would have surely applied to all of them then, and it seems unlikely that anybody has come up with a rationale for claiming we can only call L. mactans a "black widow."  The important thing is for people to be able to identify the spiders that they really need to teach their kids not to mess with. So I think you are right to keep together the ones that would be regarded as "the same" under casual inspection. P0M 00:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  L. hesperus and L. variolus, again 

message: Black widows do not kill their mates as part of mating ritual.  (The redback spider, a cousin of the black widow from Australia, does kill its mate--the male actually jumps into the female's mouth--but this article is about the North American species).  
The reason for this belief is that black widows in captivity frequently would.  Black widows, like many spiders, will happily eat other spiders that they can capture; and in captive situations (where the male has nowhere to go), the female would often capture and eat the male after mating.  But observations of mating in the wild have revealed that male widows usually escape after mating.
For that reason, I reverted the recent suggestion that widows do regularly eat their mates. It is simply not true.
--EngineerScotty 19:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Killing their mates 

message: An anonymous user added: "The lethal dose of the black widow venom is reported as an LD50 of 0.0009 mg venom / gram body weight (mouse)."  If a valid source can be found for this information, the information and citation should be added to the Spider bite article. P0M 16:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed unsourced assertion. 

message: I don't have enough expertise to edit this article but I felt that some of the information is not consistent with what I understand the case to be.
From the article:
"Adult female black widow spiders are gloss black with an hourglass shaped marking on the topside of its abdomen..."
I believe the hour glass is on the bottom side of the spider for the western black widow.  I live in CA and I don't recall ever seeing any black widow spiders with red markings of any kind on the top of the abdomen.
:Right.P0M
The book "The book of Spiders and Scorpions" (1991) by Preston-Mafham has drawings of the Northern and Southern species which show red dots on the top of the abdomen of the Northern species and an hour glass on the bottom of the Southern species.  The book suggests that the western and southern black widow females are similar in appearance but that the males appear significantly different.  Both males are about half the size of the females but the western male is a light brown color with strips and the southern male appears similar to the female except for its size.
Which brings me to a general complaint about the article.  There aren't any pictures or drawings of the males.
:If you can find such pictures, please provide them. P0M 02:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few comments mostly about the difference in species 

message: Opening paragraph describes "large widow spiders," then in the section about venom, it says they "aren't especially large."
They aren't the size of your hand or anything, but they are big enough to notice a huge spider crawling around. The body is about the size of your thumb, and then add some nice long legs to that, and you have your lovely black widow.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.128.41.250 (talk) 09:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are they large or arent't they? 

message: On two occasions I've spotted a spider much similar to the black widow, only I'm certain that the hourglass was on it's back. I've looked into the possibility of it being an Australian Red-Back however the red formations on it's back looks nothing alike, and I live in Israel, which is, well, fairly far from Australia. 
One was spotted indoors, the other was building a web between a wall and the street floor-which is unusual for a black widow.
(BTW by back I mean the top of the abdomen)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.189.16 (talk) 19:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  question 

message: The immature spiders of Latrodectus mactans especially look rather different, such that people unfamiliar with them might easily misclassify them as some other species.  It might be a good idea to add a section about their development, potentially with pictures like in http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/detail.cfm?imgnum=1485035 (which seems to be cc-non-commercial?) 76.87.155.82 08:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immature spiders look different 

message: The first paragraph of the description contradicts itself.  It says "And male black widow spiders' hourglass color is yellow to white to various shades of orange and red.", but it also says that "They are also usually dark brown with varying colors of stripes/dots, with no hourglass mark."  Do the males have hourglass markings or not?
Also, it'd be good to have a picture of a male.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.109.33 (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction in Description of Males 

message: On the page, it does have contradictory information under the "reproduction" section, saying, "Contrary to popular belief, the female only rarely eats the male after mating..." and then stating, "This is a general misconception, as the name seems to suggest that the males are invariably consumed after mating." 
Just pointing this out.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.200.1.250 (talk) 21:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Those sentences aren't particularly well written, and are easy to misunderstand - but if you read them carefully, they're actually saying the same thing. They're somewhat redundant, but not contradictory. - Ken Thomas (talk) 22:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction in Reproduction Section 

message: I vectorised a black widow, take it or leave it.
[Black Widow SVG]
Will
:It's a great illustration, but I'm not sure we need it on this article when there are so many excellent, high-resolution photos of actual Black Widows available. My suggestion? Upload it to Commons instead, and add it to the Latrodectus category. That way people who follow the Commons link from the article will see it there. - Ken Thomas (talk) 14:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  SVG picture of Black Widow - Si tu veux 

message: Why does the ref generated by:
Import Health Standard Commodity Sub-class: Fresh Fruit/Vegetables Table grapes, (Vitis vinifera) from the United States of America--State of California
...just show the .pdf filename as hyperlinked (or why does it show it AT ALL), when:
Creepy critter caught in grapes.
...seems to work just fine?
"?????"
Thanks,
philiptdotcom (talk) 20:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Administrator question: what's wrong with my ref (format)? 

message: There's too much info before the "Contents" box.  Most of the info (past the first paragraph, e.g.) should be moved under a topic heading.
philiptdotcom (talk) 20:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro is TOO LONG 

message: How in the world can the entire Black Widow article avoid talking about the appearance of the spider in question? Not including this kind of info makes the article ridiculous, and especially unhelpful. 67.211.239.242 (talk) 18:30, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The hourglass marking is extremely variable. From almost nonexistant to completely full. Though, I dont see how adding info about the feature would better the article any...It *might* have a place on individual species articles, but not really on this page.(Also, there is already a bit about it on the genus page...) Arachnowhat (talk) 18:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Hourglass Marking on underside of Abdomen? 

message: Are the males formally called "black widowers", or do they not have a gender-specific name? It seems odd that male spiders would have a female name. Also, historically, were the spiders originally called "black widows" simply because their black colour resembled a widow's dress, or was their supposed sexual cannibalism a widely-known trait? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know the male black widow spiders, are referred to just as "male black widows" or "male black widow spiders". As for the name, I dont know for certain, but I would expect that it was related to the belief that was very common in the past involving the males almost always being eaten and not due to the coloration(something that is quite variable). - Arachnowhat (talk) 23:23, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Male widows, and a question on the name in general 

message: I don't have the best eye sight, and am spider phoebic (though I try to make myself face it) but what I first was certain was a black widow I found a few minutes ago, I'm not so certain of, in retrospect. 
it was black, hung upside down, showing a redish mark on it's belly, but it wasn't bulbous at all. most of it's length was in it's legs. the body was more in the shape of the yellow and black garden spider, with the long legs that splay outwards rather than curl in like a black widow's can. I've looked at the "false black widow", and I've never mistaken them for a black widow, though we have plenty of both where I live. this wasn't one of them. also, it had chosen a high profile area, not a standard of the black widow. it's too late to go back and check it, I vacuumed it up and tossed the vacuum contents. was it a black widow? if so, why was it in a light web over the little used chair in a well lit corner (we live in spider capitol, U.S.A., nothing keeps them out of the house) instead of a powerful web in a dark area? we did have a true black spider make a nest near the door last summer, and it, also, wasn't in a very dark area, but it was behind a picture I'd propped up to take out to the car.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.95.160.69 (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  puzzled about this spider 

message: With all due respect to John Acorn's abilities as a naturalist, if he is being quoted correctly in the current version of the article, I'm afraid even a cursory amount of research indicates that he is incorrect in claiming that the Bruce Peninsula is the only location in Ontario where Black Widow Spiders reside:
The journal article below (on page 40) indicates that specimens of Black Widow Spiders have been obtained on the Bruce Peninsula in the past, but they have also been observed in both Lambton and Norfolk Counties, both of which are located 100-150 kilometers south of that location:
The Spider Genus Latrodectus (Araneae, Theridiidae)
Herbert W. Levi; Transactions of the American Microscopical Society, Vol. 78, No. 1 (Jan., 1959), pp. 7-43.
Northern Black Widow Spider  (Latrodectus variolus) documented in the 1990's in the Pinery Provincial Park, 100 kilometers south of the Bruce Peninsula: 
Photograph of Northern Black Widow Spider "in the wild" taken near Minden Ontario 2002, 200 kilometers east of the Bruce Peninsula: 
Black Widow Spider documented by Ojibway Nature Centre in 1995 near Windsor Ontario, 200 kilometers south of the Bruce Peninsula: 
Iowa State University Entomology Department site stipulates range as "south-eastern Canada", it does not restrict the spider's range in Canada exclusively to the Bruce Peninsula in Ontario:
Medical and Veterinary Entomology By Lance A. Durden also describes range as "south-eastern Canada": 
Based on this information, I will be revising the present article. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 20:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Widow Spiders found only on the Bruce Peninsula in Ontario?  

message: I live in South Africa and black widdows are common. This article makes it seem like a black widow only occurs and has its origin in the US. In Afrikaans it is called a 'Knoopie Spinnekop'. Directly translated into 'Button spider'. 
--143.160.124.40 (talk) 08:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Very true, it does seem very Americas-centric in its wording. Did South Africa always have widows or are they an unintentionally introduced species. The article needs to include all places they are found for sure, the range section I just combined from the other disparate parts could be broken up into continents and native/introduced sections. Mfield (talk) 08:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other countries 

message: I didn't see any discussion of the change.  It looks like Cygnis insignis just thought it was a good idea and did it.  And maybe it was the right thing to do.
But the article now starts off in a very misleading way.  Black widow is a common name obviously and the scope of that word undoubtedly varies from individual to individual and location to location, but I suspect that the vast majority of people who use the term (at least in the US) are referring to the species (mactans, hesperus or variolus) which is near where they live. Who says that a black widow spider is only L. mactans?  Is there an official determination that only L. mactans are black widows?  This is absolutely inconsistent with common usage.
Based on my understanding (and I stand to be corrected) this article should be called Southern Black Widow or preferably Latrodectus mactans.
One thing that has been consistently missing from this article whatever it is called is how are the three species differentiated.  It does appear that some patterns are unigue to a particular species but it also seems like the spider can exist in forms where all three species are visually very similar.  Probably the scientific basis for distinguishing between the three species is based on an examiniation of the sex organs.  If this is the case the article probably should mention that fact.
I wondered, given how similar the three species are, whether they could interbreed.  I came across a study which looked at that issue and the results of the study suggested that they could not interbreed and produce offspring as I recall.  I linked to that study in the Latrodectus article.  But it might be useful to reference the results of that study in the article.Davefoc (talk) 06:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is not much I can add to that, I made some edits to many the members of the genus. This article was constrained by being wedded to a common name, the subsequent edits have helped to unravel this web. I moved it to the accepted name from the most reliable sources. I'm sure that splitting the other species to their respective names will facilitate their improvement. I also changed the dab at Black Widow. cygnis insignis 09:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, the article previously had an even more unlikely claim, that the southern black widow specifically was the most well known of the widow spiders. Given the range of the western black widow over the highly populated areas of the west coast, and the fact that the public in general would refer to any black spider with a red hourglass, i.e. any of the three species, a black widow, i rephrased it. It now keeps the three species as a unit when talking about public perception, which seems less uncertain of a claim. Mfield (talk) 16:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Focusing this article on L. mactans

message: I think that more information is needed in the reproduction section of this article.
These questions should be all answered by the time a reader is done reading the reproduction section.
*Is this animal gonochoristic (separate sexes) or hermaphroditic?
*What kind of mating system does this animal exhibit? Provide a brief description of its mating system.
*How often does mating occur? Do individuals mate only once in their lifetimes? More than once? If more than once, at what time intervals does mating occur? Of what age does one of this animals typically have to be to mate (about how long does it take, after being born or hatched, for the animal to reach adulthood)? Does that age differ between males and females?
*When does mating occur? Only during one time of year, during a restricted “breeding season”? Or can mating occur at any time once an animal reaches adulthood?
*How often are males “ready” to mate? Do individual males typically mate with more than one female? Is there variation among males in how many females they mate with?
*How often are females “ready” to mate? Do individual females typically mate with more than one male? Is there variation among females in how many males they mate with?
*How do members of the two sexes get together? How do they find one another?
*Is there courtship of one sex by the other? Which sex performs courtship behavior? What does courtship behavior entail?
*Is there mate choice exercised by one sex? Which sex does the choosing? What is  known about criteria on which mate choice is based?
*Do the members of one sex fight or otherwise compete with each other for access to, or control of, mates of the opposite sex?
*How are sperm and egg (ovum) brought together for fertilization? Is fertilization internal or external? If internal, do males have a penis or some other intromittent organ? Do females have a penis or some other intromittent organ? Does this animal species employ spermatophores or sperm packets for fertilization? If fertilization is external, how does the animal maximize the chances of fertilization?
*In this animal species, is rape or homosexual behavior known to occur?
134.198.65.95 (talk) 15:01, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Reproduction Guidelines

message: I am no expert in the subject of spiders however I am a native of Cuba. In the intro and then in the Range section the article says the species appears in the southeastern US and Mexico. However, I believe that the range of the species is much bigger (pantropical) and it certainly includes caribbean islands such as Cuba. The introduction of the spanish version of this article suggests that the spider is to be found all the way from Mexico to Chile. In the case of Cuba, I don't know if they are introduced but I doubt it since many species found in Florida are also found in Cuba and also taking into account that there are documented experiments on black widows in Cuba going back at least to the 30s (in spanish). As for the actual presence of it, there doesn't seem to be much need of documenting it since there is already a picture of Latrodectus mactans taken in Cuba near Havana in the wikimedia common files which are linked by this article
 Airsh (talk) 07:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Range of the spider 

message: It is known that a colateral effect of the bite of this spiders is priapism. Spanish wiki asserts that.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.47.26.14 (talk) 16:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erection 

message: For any editors concerned, there is a proposed moved at the disambiguation page Black Widow. If you have anything to add to the discussion, please do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Black_Widow#Proposed_move Weebro55 (talk) 03:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move at Black Widow. 

message: This article states: "The southern widow is primarily found in (and is indigenous to) the southeastern United States, ranging from Florida to New York..." New York is now in the southeastern U.S.?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.16 (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography? 

message: The section on reproduction states that "It takes two to four months for black widow spiders to mature enough to breed". It then also states that the lifespan of a male is about three days. Is that not impossible? How could the species ever reproduce within those parameters? Furthermore, the sole reference in the section does not corroborate this. The cited page states " Males mature about 70 days after emergence and live only another month or two." There appears to be no source for the listing of three days and it doesn't make any sense in relationship to the other details about this species life cycle so I assume it has to be incorrect. 
Furthermore, the one citation gives information that conflicts with the article section's stated life span of females, number of eggs laid, and number of young that survive. Almost none of the section's details match its only reference. The veracity of the reference itself, mind you, is not something I'm entirely confident in (the full descriptions do not always match the stat summary).
It generally seems as though the section needs an overhaul. 
http://www.desertusa.com/insects/black-widow-spider.html
~Evander Berry Wall.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.139.35 (talk) 06:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with the current reproduction section. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello! I am a student from a behavioral ecology course working on the Wikispiders project. This article has some really interesting, well-written information. I would suggest having a “behavior” section that includes all the subsections about “reproduction” “prey” and “natural enemies”. This will make the article more organized. Besides, since the “range” of the spiders is discussed, a section about habitat would give a more comprehensive picture of where the spiders are distributed. Arielfeng (talk) 20:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions from a Behavioral Ecology Student