Talk:Northern Ireland flags issue

message: It would be really nice to get these flag images as SVG. - Thanks, Hoshie | 06:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. —Nightstallion (?) 11:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Beano, well done I think you need to darken the line around the star rather then thicken it.--padraig3uk 16:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the line already is black - just that it is also very thin, and at small dimensions appears grey, therefore does need thickened. I think that the red also needs darkened slightly. Jonto 17:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at it full size it appears more gray then black.--padraig3uk 17:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  If you view the source (be warned, it's messy) or edit the image in Inkscape it already is black. When I increse the thickness it does look a lot more clear. I'll upload the new one as soon as my commons account is old enough (3 more days) and only then introduce it to the main article. beano 17:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Follow-up: That's the new one uploaded now (you might need to refresh). It looks a bit better I think. Not sure whether to add this one or thicken up the line even more.  Anyone any preference? beano 20:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that looks fine now, well done.--padraig3uk 20:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SVG, SVG, SVG!!! 

message: I'm against merging this into the main article. —Nightstallion (?) 11:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be of the opinion that both articles are substantial enough, on their on merits, without too much crossover. I would also be against the merger.   theKeith  Talk!  18:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: Could someone explain the 'Star of David' objections, as I've never heard that before.  Surely the 6-pointed star only represents the 6 counties of Northern Ireland.  Is this anti-semitic idea? --Indisciplined 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Star of David

message: There has been much dispute in Northern Ireland over the flying of paramilitary flags (mainly loyalist) particularly during the marching season.  Should they be mentioned here? Lucas42 17:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this article should be kept for flags which have/could represent Northern Ireland. But it would be interesting to have an article about the sensitivities about flags, especially paramilitary ones. Maybe it could be expanded to include murals and such. « Keith t/e» 16:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paramilitary Flags 

message: I'm not sure if this is right, but should the "Northern Ireland coat of arms" be on this page? It is not actually a flag, so I'm not sure where it comes into the flag issue. --Chickenfeed9 21:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably not as its not a flag.--Vintagekits 21:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Flag was derived from the coat of Arms, so in that sense they are connected, so it does no harm to include it in the article.--padraig3uk 21:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  coat of arms? 

message: Rather than putting about a dozen  tags on this, I added the general tag at the top. Needs much more referencing. Patricularly for claims like "This flag is often flown by loyalists and in many republican minds has become associated with loyalist paramilitaries" or "The flying of the Irish Tricolour by nationalists in Northern Ireland on St Patrick's Day is particularly controversial as Saint Patrick represents all the people and all of the island, not just the Republic of Ireland or its citizens". Stu ’Bout ye! 13:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreferenced

message: This user is edit warring on this article, removing relevent information, he refuses to engage in discussion on talkpages.--padraig3uk 22:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather than complain about the user, why not make suggestions here towards improving the article? --John 04:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This user has refused to discuss changes in the talk page of this and other articles and templates that he has edit warred on dispite many requests to do so, I have even left messages on his talk page which he ignores, he has removed relevent information from articles that don't suit his POV.--padraig3uk 04:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Astrotrain

message: My removal of the word some from the paragraph on the Ulster Banner was removed with the edit summary "many sports organisation don't use it". I can't think of any Northern Irish sports organisations that don't use it offhand, can anyone else? --John 04:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well you could start with the GAA.--padraig3uk 04:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't they an all-Ireland body? --John 04:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: So is the rugby team but they still don't use the UB either, which is why the word some was in the text as not every sports organisation uses the UB.--padraig3uk 04:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem confused. We were talking about sports organisations representing Northern Ireland. I don't think either of your examples really works there, correct me if I'm wrong. --John 04:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Uh huh. So which were the Northern Ireland sports teams that don't use it again? --John 05:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: There are many sporting organisations that don't use the UB.  I am not a sports fan myself, other editors would be better at giving examples of those that don't.--padraig3uk 05:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pending the arrival of these other editors, I'll remove some again. --John 14:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree removing it gives the false impression that all sports teams use the Ulster banner which is not the case.--padraig3uk 14:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it should be easy enough for you to find some of the "many sports organisation" which don't use it. Until then, I think it is fine the way it is. --John 14:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are the one claiming that all sports teams do, as your wording now implies, so it is upto you to prove that claim, so ontil then please revert your edit until then.--padraig3uk 14:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: If you think its false then prove it, your wording implied that ALL sports teams used the Ulster Banner.--padraig3uk 14:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is, I believe, the truth. You reverted me with the edit summary "many sports organisation don't use it". I asked you to name some. You blustered and flustered and named some all-Ireland sports teams (a good clue that you don't know the first thing about the subject) but were unable to come up with any actual names, eventually saying "I am not a sports fan myself, other editors would be better at giving examples of those that don't". But you still want "your" version to prevail. I am deeply disappointed at your uncooperative behaviour. This is a microcosm of all the crap we have on NI-related articles, because of POV-warriors like yourself fighting over every damn word even when you're wrong. I will not edit-war as that is not my style and this one word is not important enough (at least not to me). Good luck. --John 15:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've updated to: "its use by sports teams representing Northern Ireland". That doesn't say all or some. If anyone can prove it is only 'some' they can amend that line. beano 16:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sports uses 

message: Can editors please leave the order of the sections alone, this article deals with flags in use and used by the Northern Ireland state, therefore the section on the Ulster Banner as the former flag of the government between 1921-72 should come just after the main section dealing with current official flags.  The Irish Tricolour then is shown after that.--padraig3uk 07:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have answered that above.--padraig3uk 07:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: for perhaps the first time ever, I agree with Padraig.Traditional unionist 19:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The title is 'Northern Ireland flag issue,' not 'flags in use.' And even if it were 'flags in use' then the Irish flag would feature dominantly also. Diarmaid 12:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Diarmaid, the Tricolour does feature in the article.--padraig3uk 08:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but pushing it down to 'other flags' is misleading especially since it partly forms the core of the flags issue. This is an article about the flags issue, not about official governmental flags! Diarmaid 14:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no consensus for the changes you are trying to make, put your case here first and if you can get consensus then the changes can be made, but up to this point no other editor has agreed with you on this, edit warring on the issue will not resolve it.--padraig3uk 14:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Padraig. The article is about the North's flag issue, which, as the article itself states, "is one that divides the population along sectarian lines. Depending on political allegiance, people identify with differing flags and symbols, some of which have, or have had, official status in the province." Why then a whole lot of union flags at the top of the page, if the objective is to point out the use of the main flags that ARE in use??? What use mentioning former government flags at all? I think editors are getting this article and 'Flag of Northern Ireland' articles mixed up!! I suspect a unionist POV push. Diarmaid 01:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, this is not an article about former/current official flags, it is an article about the flags issue. Diarmaid 16:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And? Given their past/current official status, the UF, UB, Assembly logo and Cross of Saint Patrick are more important and relevant than the Tricolour. Therefore they are listed first. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. When I created this page, it was designed to encapsulate the issue, but in a way that refers to all the flags the are part of "the issue". The issue in question surrounds the flags and emblems with which people identify with, but it makes sense to deal first with current official flags and emblems, then former Northern Ireland flags and emblems, then others. You could argue that the flag of the Republic of Ireland should go right at the bottom with the flag of St Andrew, as neither relate to Northern Ireland, but given the fact that many nationalists identify with it, it makes sense to put it at the top of the list of flags which have never had any offical status in Northern Ireland, but below those which have. NotMuchToSay 20:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The 'flag of Northern Ireland' article should deal with official flags. This article is about the flags issue. Saying that "the flag of the Republic of Ireland should go right at the bottom with the flag of St Andrew, as neither relate to Northern Ireland" is a POV push considering almost half of the population identify with it, not to mention a national majority. Diarmaid 01:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: 'almost half' is pushing it and describing the island as a 'national' majority sounds more than a bit partisan to me. To put a foreign non- Northern Ireland flag above the only flag to have ever officially and uniquely represented Northern Ireland is quite ridiculous! Jonto 00:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell me, which flag does the majority of unionists in the six counties feel best aligned with? Which flag do nationalists best align with? This is at the heart of the flags issue and I'm trying to find a common ground. Some authors feel it necessary to diminish the status of the Irish flag, so why not sidestep the controversy, and represent the flags issue properly by displaying both together? Diarmaid 02:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one is trying to diminish the status of the Tricolour, we are putting it in proper context, as an "other" flag which has never had any official status in NI, and therefore should be less prominant. Stu ’Bout ye! 07:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is for the 'flag of Northern Ireland' topic. This topic is 'Northern Ireland flags *issue*,' where the tricolour features as key player that exact issue. Official status of flags is not a major subject in the article, although it's worthwhile mentioning which community's flags do have or have had official status in the past, as has been done. Diarmaid 09:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is is about the issue - and what is official or unofficial is the whole point. The way it was (and the way I created this page) is the best. NotMuchToSay 17:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the issue of displaying flags is the whole point. Unionists can argue til the cows come home to try and diminish the status of the tricolour, but it will not happen. Might as well try to find the middle ground, without resorting to POV. Diarmaid 01:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text: To sum it up, one editor does not disagree, the others are unionist hacks who would put their own POV before representing the issue fairly and equally. Has ever been thus. Why not follow the D'Hondt system of representation as per GFA? ;) Diarmaid 08:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you accept that you have no consensus and are engaging in an edit war on your own?Traditional unionist 08:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I accept is that there is a gross POV push on this topic - the Irish flag is three places down now and you're still complaining? Diarmaid 09:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But you acknowledge that there is no support for your position?Traditional unionist 10:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure an 'official flag section' is useful for this particular article - we already have this section under 'flag of Northern Ireland'. This article deals with the issue of displaying flags, and the description of the union flag already states that it's the only recognised official flag in the six counties. Otherwise good idea for a layout. I also like how the coat of arms is incorporated into the Ulster Banner section instead of floating around on its own. Diarmaid 12:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Diarmaid, you have to remember that not everyone that comes across this article would be aware that the Union Flag is the only recognised official flag for Northern Ireland, therefore it is necessary to make that clear from the start, before discussing the other issue of flags used by Unionists and Nationalists.--padraig3uk 14:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps then have the union flag title containing 'official flag,' like the Ulster Banner has 'former official flag'? Diarmaid 15:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Like ? beano 01:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, except under 'prominent flags' heading or similar to put all three in context. Diarmaid 09:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ulster Banner v Flag of Ireland

message: This article states
:'Union Jack, is the only official flag currently used on governmental buildings in Northern Ireland
The supporting reference states:
:*On the occasion of a visit to a government building by Her Majesty the Queen, the Royal Standard shall be flown at that building.
:*... has more than one flag pole, the national flag of the country of the visiting Head of State may also be flown at that building'
Is it just me, or is there a contradiction there? The Fashion Icon 15:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No in normal use the Union Flag is the only official flag that can be flown from government buildings except on the rare occasion of an Royal visit. Even with that the Union Flag is only flown on a set number  of days in the year.--padraig 19:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even in this comment Padraig, there is a contradiction.  Yes the fashion icon, you are right.Traditional unionist 00:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Only flag?

message: Given that there is considerable cross-over between the Northern Ireland flags issue page and the Flag of Northern Ireland page, I propose that these pages be merged. The Ulster Banner page now exists to cover the actual NI flag, anyway.
NotMuchToSay 14:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately, your summizing above is inaccurate. Firstly if you look into the history of the tricolour, it was designed by Irish Nationalists (NOT republicans) to bring unity among the peoples of Ireland (peace between the orange and green), and independence from the UK. This flag has been adapted by the area of Ireland which has gained independence, but is not exclusively representitive to that area alone! This is why Irish Nationalism in Northern Ireland use the flag, to show their support for a unified and independent Ireland. Yes Republicans use the flag also, as does Nationalists, Americans, Canadians, Sewdish etc. when they thinjk of Ireland. They are not all republicans neither. Please note the difference between Republicanism and Nationalism before stating the above. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  14:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: Maybe someone from this article can give some useful input to this thread Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Ireland regarding the Flag (if any) used by the Ireland scoccer team. Fasach Nua (talk) 22:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soccer 

message: For your information, a quote from today's Irish Times. --Mais oui! (talk) 07:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The point being?--Vintagekits (talk) 08:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For your information, a quote from the Prime Minister's Spokesman says "The position in relation to Northern Ireland was that it did not have a national flag". The Union Flag is the flag of the United Kingdom which includes Northern Ireland, it is not the flag of Northern Ireland itself. O Fenian (talk) 09:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jeffrey Donaldson MP - "The union flag is the flag of Northern Ireland" 

message: Should Darts articles use the Ulster Banner to represent players from Northern Ireland? See the discussion here Bjmullan (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC - Use of the Ulster Banner in Darts articles   

message: Surely not? Surely separatism is just that, separate? Description mentions not wishing to be part of the UK. So not Unionism. Suggest someone put it under another heading. Will not get into petty squabbles as above about what that heading should be. 109.255.209.70 (talk) 03:03, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separatist flag under the Unionist heading 

message: The paragraph and image of the flag of Ulster has the appearance of being there to "even the scores" between unionists and nationalists, so that they get two flags each. The problem is that there is nothing in the article that remotely suggests that the flag of Ulster is contentious, or ever has been. The other three are dealt with in the Controversies section. I think the image should be removed, and the text shortened and added to the following paragraph e.g.
:"Other flags flown by republicans include the Starry Plough and the Sunburst flag. The Flag of Ulster is seen by nationalists as the only legitimate flag of Ulster, and is the official flag of the Ulster Gaelic Athletic Association. Loyalists sometimes display the Flag of Scotland..."
Scolaire (talk) 08:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: True - unless someone can point to it being an "issue", I don't see why it needs to be there either.  --HighKing (talk) 11:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Scolaire (talk) 11:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag of Ulster 

message: The entire paragraph beginning "The flying of the Irish Tricolour by nationalists in Northern Ireland on St Patrick's Day has caused some controversy..." is unsourced and dubious. The flying of the Tricolour anywhere in NI at any time of year has always "caused some controversy"; there is no reason why Paddy's Day should be any different. "Arguing that St Patrick is the patron saint of the whole of Ireland, not just the Republic of Ireland" sounds like a typical WP scoring point, but I don't recall ever hearing a public figure making the point in regard to the flying of the Tricolour. Similarly, the meaning of the Tricolour (peace between green and orange) is not of any relevance to the national festival. Unless the paragraph is rewritten in a more meaningful way, with proper citations to reliable sources, I intend to delete it.  Scolaire (talk) 12:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It is quite easy to find sourcing for that. I don't see the relevance to this article though so I wouldn't mind it going on that basis. You must be aware that unionists feel alienated by people waving the Irish tricolour just like nationalists feel intimidated going down a street with Ulster Banners flying in it. The point is that St Patrick is for the whole of Ireland, not just nationalists. He isn't particular to the Republic. I think it is very good the way councils are trying to get people to use a neutral flag instead for the occasion. I must admit I think the objections to using a bit of Irish are just being a PITA though - Irish is a language of the whole of Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 14:51, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I'd come back to see what was happening and thought I was at the flag of northern Ireland article. Yes flags on St Patrick's day is relevant to this article. Dmcq (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

text: Anyway  is a report from 2006 to the Belfast council which says about the problems with flags and their actions to try and make St Patrick's Day more inclusive. Here's Arlene Foster on it  And here  is about how efforts can go wrong. They probably think St Patrick spoke English when in Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 15:51, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what's worse... vindicating your response when Scolaire's comment is nearly 2 years old, or that your responding to (sadly) recently retired editor ;-) In all seriousness, the fact many nationalists regard the tricolour as representing all Ireland explains their usage of the flag, made worse by the Yanks and other countries mistaking the flag to also to mean so. Mabuska (talk) 18:07, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a long time. And I am very sorry about Scolaire too. Yep I should avoid getting sucked into these things and spend more time on things I'm more interested in. Otherwise am I really coming here for the aggro? That's a silly thing to do. Dmcq (talk) 21:36, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  St. Patrick's Day 

message: The proposal put forward by Richard Haass was not for a new flag for Northern Ireland to replace the Ulster banner. Whoever put the image and the caption on the linked Irish Times article said that, but the article itself didn't, and neither did the draft proposal. The proposal was for "a new flag for Northern Ireland that would have cross-community support." Unionists said "that they would accept no replacement for the British union flag", and "a source" said the flag "was not designed to replace the union flag but to augment it." I'm taking out the italicised text.  Scolaire (talk) 09:21, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haass talks 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)