Talk:Formula One/Archive 1

message: You will have to convince an American this is more expensive than CART or Indy racing. 
The article does not tell what distinguish Formula One from other car races. Is it the design rules of the car called Formula One? I have seen some car makers touted their production cars using Formula One technology. But to a layman, what is Formula one exactly?
I have had no luck in trying to find comparative costs of F1 cars versus American Indy cars. Also I could not find any season attendance records for Formula One. NASCAR brought in 6 million 
spectators, over 190,000 per one day race in 1997. How does Formula One attendance compare?  --rmhermen 
I will work on addressing your points.  Some brief one-liner replies to work into the article:
* Formula One is a category of automobile circuit racing.  It has been, since its inception, the premier category of circuit racing in the world.
* It consists of an annual series of (currently) 17 races. 
* Formula One cars are constructed by the teams (who are often, but not always, associated with major auto manufacturers) according to a set of rules. The teams must construct their own cars, and no other series races cars built according to the F1 regs (nobody could afford to). 
*  The races are around either purpose built road-racing circuits or adapted street circuits (no oval tracks), and are typically around 300 kilometres in length and take a little under two hours to complete.  Racers stop for fuel and tyres at least once, sometimes more, and pit speed and strategy is crucial in deciding a race. 
* Costs are way higher in F1 - the cars are custom-built rather than off-the-shelf like they are in Indycars, there are fewer restrictions on materials etc (to take a small example, Indycars use steel brakes but F1 uses carbon fibre brakes at about $7000 per set), and the consequent R&D efforts are out of this world.  Not to mention Michael Schumacher's salary :)
* It's generally believed that the best circuit racers are in F1. Evidence for this includes that a large number of Indycar drivers go to F1 and few succeed, whilst Nigel Mansell went to Indycars in the early 1990's and beat the lot in his rookie year.  If, as is rumoured, Jacques Villeneuve (F1 driver and former World Champion) goes back to CART in 2003, there will be a good chance to test this theory. 
* As far as attendance goes, there are 17 races a year and they probably get raceday attendances of around 100-150,000 each, and total rollups of around 300,000 person/days each, so it's smaller than NASCAR in that respect. However, the TV audience for F1 is way bigger than NASCAR - F1 is global, while you'll struggle to find a NASCAR telecast outside the US.  Indycars are maybe a little more global, but nowhere near F1. 
: Another candidate for most expensive sport is America's Cup Yachting. For example in 1999 Team NZ spent $US40 Million to compete in five races.
:: During this year's coverage of the British GP in the US on Speed TV, it was announced that a British media entity calculated the Ferrari team's cost to compete in the 2003 World Championship at $100,000 per mile.  If you do the math, that's nearly $US 300 Million for the season, presumably all-inclusive.  That said, the team is still making a lot of money.  The contract with Marlboro for sponsorship signed in 2003 was a three year, $US750 million dollar piece of paper.  Obviously, Shell, Vodafone, and AMD make up the remaining $US50 million or so, and then some, which is important given Michael Schumacher's intelligently-estimated salary of $US35 million annually.
::While Eddie Irvine drove for Jaguar, he was the second-highest paid Ford employee behind the President and CEO whose name appears on the brand's marque.  For an F1 driver to get between $5 million and $20 million is not uncommon, depending on appeal and skill.  By contrast, the Rahal, Penske, or Ganassi teams racing in American series could fund their entire racing season with the money spent by most competitive teams on a single driver.
::A new team entering the world championship must place a $US40 million, non-refundable, deposit to Bernie Eccelstone.  This will allow them the right to race, assuming they can manufacture a car or obtain the exclusive intellectual property rights to one, per the F1 regulations.  Don't forget that you have to purposely destroy your first one or two to complete the mandatory crash test approvals.  Despite the immense global financial girth of a manufacturer like Ford, recent suggestions are that it's becoming too expensive for them to continue competing at this level (!).  So much for race on Sunday, sell on Monday.  I must say that knowing what it takes for a team to compete in F1, I am disinclined to purchase a Mercedes-Benz (now  moreso than ever), a Honda, or a Ford/Jaguar.  I am very inclined to look at BMW, Ferrari (yeah right), and even Toyota and Renault (though the latter is missing in the US).  Toyota, Ferrari, and Renault are unique in that they manufacture each major component of the car themselves - engine, transmission, chassis.  Other teams use a combination, although everything on any given car is handmade.  The Sauber team is somewhat unique in that they receive equipment from Ferrari that is exactly one year old at each race.  By all rights, their car is in fact the 2003 Ferrari - the reason they are not trouncing the rest of the field is a testament to the brilliance of Michael Schumacher, Ross Brawn, and the Scuderia team.
::Also, on the above questions, further clarification.  F1 represents the most popular spectator sport in the world, with the exception of the World Cup football (soccer) competition held every four years.  With regard to the class of drivers, there are only 20 seats in F1 right now, and everyone (including NASCAR's Jeff Gordon) who races professionally realizes that F1 is the pinnacle of competitive driving.  Alex Zanardi actually raced in F1 in the early 1990's, then came to CART and dominated.  He attempted to return to F1, but could never adjust to the braking after having spent so many years in steel-rotored ChampCars.  Jacques Villeneuve followed his father's footsteps, after whom a circuit in Canada is named, becoming a successful F1 driver after having dominated in CART the year prior.  Christiano de Matta, a former CART driver, is now driving for Toyota in F1 (and hopes to keep his ride after a sub-stellar season).  CART and IRL are feeder series to some extent to F1, not vice-versa.  Regarding attendance, the USGP at Indianapolis is one of the more popular and less expensive F1 races on the schedule.  About 100,000 - 150,000 people attend this incarnation of the USGP (new since 2000), at roughly $50 - $100 per seat.  In Canada, by contrast, the weekend will run about $325 per person or so.  The Monaco race, well, a business colleague spoke to a woman on a flight who lives in Monaco - she rents out her condo, which oversees a section of the circuit nicely, and is able to pay for her residence for the remainder of the year with the income.  There is likely $10 billion in the water at the marina in the form of luxury yachts.  It is the race to see, and if you have to ask, you can't afford it.
::IMHO, Watching Michael Schumacher race is like watching Michael Jordan play basketball one-on-five and winning by 100 points, or like watching Tiger Woods win the U.S. Open by 72 strokes.  I'm trying not to exaggerate, but his dominance at this - the highest level of motorsport in the world, is simultaneously unbelievable, unprecedented, and wonderful.  He has been doing it for 10+ years, and the magic seems to be uniquely his.  It's a great time to be a race fan. TM 01:30, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are some interesting statistics. Good work. Maybe a section on costs could be incorporated into the article, outlining sources of income, budgets, where spending goes, cost of tickets etc. SamH 10:31, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Costs 

message: ::::Check out the article on Formula One cars, I've added a Performance section that links to a very cool video Mercedes did years back comparing standard automobiles and the McLaren MP4/12 (I think) at Silverstone. TM 02:02, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  McLaren video 

message: The page desperately needs updating, particularly the bits re 2003 and 2004. I'd have a go but believe there are wikipedians with better knowledge on this who could do a better job. Moriori 20:45, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)
:Duly noted - in fact I think the 2003-2004 part does not belong on the Formula One page at all. Someone has created an unfinished Formula One rules page - perhaps we could do as they do with countries and split up rules, racing & strategy, technical aspects of cars and engines, etc each into their own pages. The Rules page could detail the complete evolution of FIA rules with a brief summary and link on the main Formula One page. Opinions? Rdsmith4 02:15, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Updating required

message: RickK merged "Formula One racing" with "Formula One," which I had just finished separating - I think I will go ahead and revert it and put a notice to clarify the difference on the racing page. So you know. Rdsmith4 16:37, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge revert

message: Now that the mid-season driver shuffle seems to have started, what do we do?  Timo Glock replaced Geogrio Pantano for the last race in Canada (for Jordan), if he starts again in America do we change the listing then? Kurohone 05:16, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Pantano appears to be back in for the USGP. I think two races is a good wait time before changing a driver - we should certainly leave Ralf Schumacher in, for example, despite the fact that he'll probably be missing the French GP due to his crash last weekend. Rdsmith4 16:50, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Driver list

message: I've noticed that there has been quite a substantial shift in this article in the last few days from Standard English to American English spellings, which strikes me as a little odd for a European-centred sport.
Thoughts?
James F. (talk) 03:50, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That may have been me. I was doing it for consistency and since I'm American it was much easier to Americanize them all. I don't think it's terribly relevant; feel free to change them, of course. Rdsmith4 04:09, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standard -> AE spelling changes 

message: I have a couple suggestions to make; I thought I'd ask before editing myself, because I think the changes I have in mind are fairly major.
Having a look through some of the Formula One articles, it strikes me that things could be more consistent.
A lot of the articles on Grands Prix contain information which would be better suited to the articles on the circuit, most of which are empty. For instance, Malaysian Grand Prix contains the following:
"The venue is widely regarded as the standard setter for all other Grand Prix venues with palatial pit and press complexes, and spectacular grandstands. The circuit itself is 3.444 miles long and is noted for its sweeping corners and wide straights. It was designed, in common with other new facilities in Shanghai and Bahrain, by German designer Hermann Tilke."
I feel this would be better suited to Sepang International Circuit, whilst Malaysian Grand Prix should be more about results, history, etc. A link to the circuit article from the grand prix article would suffice. The circuit article could also mention other non-Formula 1 races held there. An excellent example is the distinction between European Grand Prix and N%FCrburgring. What do others think?
Concentrating on the grand prix articles only this time. Some, like Australian Grand Prix have the results in a table. Meanwhile, others, such as Belgian Grand Prix do not. Perhaps this is a work-in-progress though, I don't know; thought I'd point it out. doctorvee 00:04, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all really a work-in-progress, though no one is working on the GP pages right now, I don't think. I intended to do it eventually - or so I tell myself - but I agree completely with your criticisms. I'll work on standardizing the GP results into tables, but be bold and feel free to separate the GP/circuit info yourself. Excellent suggestions. Rdsmith4 04:02, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've started work on the GP / circuit separation. doctorvee 15:13, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: If we want to be accurate a race can last more than 2 hours for the winner the race end when the winner cross the victory lane after 2 hours and in fact the race is longer the real end is when the last car in the same lap as the winner cross the victory lane. Ericd 22:34, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  GP pages 

message: A well-meaning and slightly pedantic anon has just changed all instances of grands prix to grand prix. The proper French plural is grand prix, but grands prix is in common English usage (and the Times of London says in their style guide - scroll down to Motor Racing - that the 's' must be included). The OED is silent on the subject. Also, grands prix is the Wikipedia status quo and it would be silly to change every instance. Consequently I reverted the changes (and so did DoctorVee at nearly the same time). Rdsmith4 23:01, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  grands prix