Talk:John Howard/Archive 4

message: "A talk given on 20 February 2006 by Clive Hamilton, the director of the Australia Institute, described the Howard as being influenced by the "dirty dozen", a group of climate change skeptics with considerable influence over Australian policy [43]"
This is the John Howard entry, not the Clive Hamilton entry. His opinion shouldn't be sited on this page any more than any other individual. It is not relevent. This should be deleted and placed perhaps on the Clive Hamilton page. Mish 130 13:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Climate Change ...

message: Whether you're a fan of Howard or not, you cant deny that he's been somewhat decisive - any proof, sources, evidence?
:Someone can be decisively abhominable. What exactly do you mean - do you want the article to state that he has been considered as such? In which case, it's your obligation to find a source. Slac speak up! 04:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Somewhat decisive"? This is a legpull. My choice would be Deakin, but we're never going to have a single definitive answer. Find a source saying John Howard's the best in our history and I'll find an equally authoratitive one saying he's the worst. --Pete 10:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: decisive'? You mean like the way he decisively decided to bullshit the Australian people about people throwing babies overboard? Sorry couldn't resist. Nil Einne 17:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Abhominable"?? Sorry, couldnt resist.--ABVS 15:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Widely regarded as the best PM in Australian history?

message: Question: user:Skyring's reversion of the birth date results in a broken info box for me:
  26 July 1939 (age Expression error: Unrecognised punctuation character "[")
is this apparent to anyone else?
The undertow 09:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The template is broken. It generates a date in US month-day-year format. As noted, most Wikipedia readers do not have accounts and therefore see the "raw" dates, which in this case turn out to be in the wrong format. --Pete 09:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: OK. Easy fix is to ignore the birthdate and age template. Just use birth_date =11 March 1916 or whatever the date is. --Pete 09:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Lacrimosus affirmed that 'anons' see the date as messed up, but i found the error when i was logged in...so what does that mean? The undertow 12:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Birthdate Reversion

message: Australia actually led INTERFET (International Force East Timor) (ie didn't just contribute significantly)  — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.169.6.144 (talk) 10:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only that but we led the pressure for its creation. More could be added there. Rocksong 22:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: East Timor

message: Anonymous user 58.169.6.144, by continously inserting references to the 96 billion debt in the "budget black hole" paragraph, is confusing two issues. The 96 billion net debt was common knowledge in 1996. But the "budget black hole" comments were in relation to an alleged (it's so long ago I can't remember who was right) 10 billion black hole in Labor's 95-96 budget. The Liberals used this as an excuse/rationale to cut certain spending (I think this was the famous "non-core promises"). I've no idea if the Libs were right, but it's a trick every incoming government seems to play: "Oooooh we've just discovered that the previous government has overspent, we'll have to dump some of our election promises". Now the $96 billion total debt was not in this category: it was common knowledge, so the Libs could account for it in their election promises. Now wiping out the $96 billion debt over 10 years is an impressive achievement and deserves a mention, but not in the same paragraph as the "budget black hole", because it's a separate issue. Rocksong 22:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 10 billion versus 96 billion

message: ::Howard's social conservatism also helped him to win vital preferences from the socially conservative party Family First.
I have removed this claim from the 2004 election campaign section. I don't think Family First's preference flows to the Liberals were decisive in the election at all, given the party's low primary vote. Is there a source on this? It goes without saying that the party's Senate seat has been pretty decisive, but that was not won by "Howard's social conservatism". Joestella 19:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Disclosure: I'm a FF member). The statement is certainly true (Libs got most FF preferences, and it was due to their (on the whole) social conservatism). The question is whether it is relevant. If they were mostly Liberal voters in the first place, then it's no net gain, so probably doesn't deserve a mention. (To answer this, we'd need a source on previous voting patterns of FF voters, and I don't know of any such source). Personally I don't care if the sentence is in or out. Rocksong 03:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The bottom of the 2004 election page shows preference directions. Around two thirds of FF go to the libs. Timeshift 18:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Family First preferences

message: It was pretty bewildering to hear John Howard say on Monday that any withdrawing of troops from Iraq would be a "victory for the terrorists", and even making a timetable for withdrawal would mean the terrorists win; followed up by his government saying that the British made a "wise decision" to withdraw troops from Iraq and make a timetable to withdraw the rest. Now after talking to Dick Cheney, he's saying that for Australia to withdraw troops from Iraq would embolden Iran, and that would be a catastrophe for everybody in the region "not just the Israelis". Well where did the "not just the Israelis" bit come from? Who was talking about the Israelis? And why would the withdrawal of Australian troops embolden the Iranians and cause a catastrophe, but the British troops leaving is still a "wise decision"? And how come Dick Cheney says it would be okay for Australian troops to withdraw from Iraq? How can the wisdom of various decisions change hour-to-hour depending on who's talking, and what they're talking about, when they are essentially the same decisions? Why was Howard slamming Barack Obama for saying the USA should withdraw from Iraq, but saying that the British withdrawing is such a great idea? The whole thing just gets more and more confusing.
:If you are confused, perhaps it is best you devote your attention to endeavours other than editing an encyclopaedia. Carpet bowls is a sport where you may concentrate your energies, and I wish you the best of luck! --Pete 16:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you aren't confused by these contradictory statements, maybe you could explain them? Please explain how withdrawing Australian troops or making a timetable to withdraw them would be a catastrophe for freedom and a victory for terrorists, whereas withdrawing British troops is a wise decision. Or maybe you think throwing insults around is a suitable endeavour for encylopaedia editors. 220.253.88.47 09:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The withdrawal of the 460 strong Danish contingent (similar in size to the Australian contingent of 520 that the ALP wants to withdraw) is also interesting: is that a "wise decision" or "a victory for the terrorists"? AussieBoy 06:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: John Howard flip-flops on Iraq troop withdrawal

message: You know, this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia. A place where students can go to get the facts. When I was a kid, I loved to browse through World Book, Encyclopaedia Brittanica and all the others. I could go look up something, some little piece of information, and hours would pass as I turned pages, followed cross references, stopped to look at a colourful picture and so on. Editing Wikipedia is probably, in my own small way, some sort of repayment on the debt I owe the folk who put together those big thick square books.
Wikipedia is a great resource. Although I take it with a grain of salt sometimes, it's my first stop for information and answers to questions. And you know what? It's even better than a printed book for browsing. Click in this and that and you follow a trail of serendipity, every journey unique.
So why the hell do we get editors whose only purpose in life seems to be to bastardise the whole thing, subverting decent, factual informative, interesting and even entertaining articles into political statements? Every edit they make is intended to twist the facts just a little bit into their preferred distortion. In this case, the idea is to make John Howard into some sort of stumbling, evil idiot. Downplay his successes, highlight his failures. I've no doubt that the same people doing this are also whitewashing Paul Keating and turning Gough Whitlam into a flawless alabaster saint. And other people are doing precisely the reverse. This sort of activity feeds off the growing success and reputation of Wikipedia, the product of an unprecedented co-operation by thousands of devoted editors, all committed to making a quality product. It's using the growing authority of Wikipedia to provide gravity and support to political statements of dubious merit.
I guess if the article eventually gets twisted and spun and wriggled and nibbled far enough, one little duck quack at a time, it will say "John Howard is the Antichrist" and schoolkids will read it and believe it, knowing if Wikipedia says it, it must be so.
The most recent antics are aimed at presenting young Howard's unsuccessful run at state parliament as some sort of ham-fisted loss of a safe Liberal seat. Drummoyne in the Sixties certainly wasn't blue-ribbon, it wasn't a Liberal seat and although it had returned some Liberal members in the past, it was now a solid Labor seat. In 1968, it hadn't been held by the Liberals for six years, and in 2007, nearly 40 years on, it still hasn't been regained by the Liberals.
I regard this sort of manipulation of a factual article to be vandalism. Worse than vandalism, worse than some schoolkid finding that they can say of a classmate "Bugsy Jones is a poopy-head". It's subverting the wikidream, and I won't tolerate it, regardless of which side of politics is the supposed benificary, and who is the target. Let's stick with the facts, make sure that we are on solid, sourced ground, and do our best to write a good article. I suggest that if you want to nibble an article to death, you discuss your amendment in the talk pages, rather than engage in an edit war. --Pete 02:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Duck nibbling

message: The seat of Drummoyne had been in non-Labor hands for most of its history prior to Coady. It is disingenuous of people to suggest that it was a Labor seat in 1967 - it was marginal at the time which was why the well connected party yoof apparatchik got himself preselected. The so-called Liberal Party of Australia is the direct descendant of the equally tory United Australia Party. Albatross2147 01:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the opportunity to review the wording. I've removed some more POV editorialising. --Pete 01:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not editoriallsing. It's about fleshing out the bare bones of the article. Add more info, don't snipe Pete.Albatross2147 02:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is already long. I don't mind presenting the facts, but I take exception to slantng them so as to mislead the reader. --Pete 05:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Electoral district of Drummoyne]]

message: Believe it or not but Barnett (a Howard mate) quotes Howard's best man as having expressed surprise at his marrage. I had cited the reference and it is easily checked. You should be able to do this. Most public libraries will have a copy of Barnett's turgid panegyric. I got mine for nothing at Vinnies 'cos I had made a donation. The guy who previously had owned it hadn't read it but you can tell he was a fan 'cos he had left lots of neatly clipped fawning press cuttings from the Tele about John Howard (and John Brogden) in the book. Albatross2147 11:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah but it's a personal matter and who freakin cares. Rocksong 11:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The opinion of a mate on Howard's marriage is hardly worth including. Is it relevant to his career? IIRC, surprise was expressed that this nerdy guy could score a foxy sheila. Me, I think they go together perfectly and she's not that hot anyway. May I suggest, Albatross, that you give over trying to nibble away at John Howard through Wikipedia and leave the article to concentrate on the relevant details. If you hate him so much, go and run for Parliament yourself. --Pete 11:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As with most articles about politicians and high-profile people, it's impractical to include all trivia and controversies. It would make the page far too long and tedious to read. Just my two cents' worth anyway Naysie 13:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: John Howard's nuptials

message: In his time his popularity has been seemingly undented. His approval rating, though showing slight ups and downs, remain steadily above 50%. Howard explains this through his frequently repeated quote, "My proof is in my record. This has seen Australia with low inflation, low interest rates, low unemployment, higher wages and a total elimination of government debt". As a testament to the Howard government's economic credentials, Australian Treasurer Peter Costello was asked in June 2006 to be the special guest of the G8 Finance Minister's Summit in Saint Petersburg, Russia — though Australia is not part of the G8—to advise these nations on good governance and public finance.
Have removed the above - basically inaccurate in terms of popularity as measured by the leaders satisfaction /dissatisfaction rating. Statement by howard of his own success / performance is nothing more than a self serving statement. While contrary views could also be cited, the effect would be to bog down the article more than it already is. Quote about Costello going to G8 isn't sourced as to the assertion that the reason for this evidences the Howard government's credentials - and in any case better off going into Costello's page if its relevant. While one could add in all the vicissitudes of the opinion polls, I don't think this is particularly relevant over the longer term unless it has an impact at election time. --Hmette 06:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: removed paragraph

message: I have observed your revisions on a number of occasions now both on my contributions and others. This page and others are not your personal domain, and I suggest you stop treating them as such. In the process stop abusing others who make changes that you dont agree with. My edit removed a quote from howard about himself, and moved an event that related to 2006 to its proper place in the article. At the same time, it added references and improved accuracy. The changes are in my view resonable. Your actions in simply reverting changes it extremely ofputting, and one of the reasons many people feel they canont contribute to such pages, or canot be bothered to. A repeat performance will result in my making a complaint on the issue. --Hmette 06:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that you leave out the personal attacks and pay due attention to wikiprocess. If you want to blank out established paragraphs in the article, especially when they are very pertinent to the subject, then please discuss it here first. We edit through consensus, not personal abuse and threats. What strikes you as reasonable may well be viewed by others as politically-motivated vandalism, and it is best to get a range of opinions. --Pete 06:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I too find Skyring's annoying at times, I think he's in the right this time. I think the move of the debt paragraph was at best a poor edit, at worst looks politically motivated. First, you removed the reference to the size of the debt Howard inherited. Second, you put in a sentence on "net worth", even though (to my knowledge) it generated no political debate (i.e. it's insignificant). Rocksong 07:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't remember reading that section (where abouts is it?). Is/Was the size of the debt Howard inherited put into context of the amount of debt that Howard left Keating? Especially in regards to debt as a proportion of yearly government revenue.Alans1977 22:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe the "net worth" is a non-issue, politically. I never heard Labor say, "yes you've eleminated debt but there's still the problem of net worth". You'll need to prove me wrong by showing Labor (or other serious political) commentary on it, or it should be taken out. Rocksong 08:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Pete, it's not helpful accusing Hmette of vandalism, when clearly it isn't. Rocksong 10:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I refer to the page on vandalism, specifically thapart that says, "Removing all or significant parts of pages or replacing entire established pages with one's own version without first gaining consensus both constitute vandalism." I also see the addition of subsequent small edits as a tactic to hide the blanking as indicative of Hmette's state of mind. --Pete 10:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quoting the section entitled "Blanking" and Hmette's edits are clearly not blanking. And has it occured to you that the subsequent edits are just because Hmette has been busy? WP:Assume good faith. Rocksong 10:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at this diff, we see the blanking of a relevant paragraph, and a misleading edit summary. I have no confidence that Hmette's edits improve the article. While I cannot say that Hmette's minor additions are deliberate concealment of the blanking, it is a pattern familiar to any vandal fighter: a controversial edit followed up with a few minor edits in quick succession, knowing that only the last edit will show up on a watchlist. --Pete 11:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Skyring

message: I've heard many times in the past that Howard lived at home until he was in his 30s and only moved out when he married Janette, can anyone verify this with a source? Also I've heard many times in the past that his mother negotiated his first wage when he left uni, again can anyone verify this with a source? Alans1977 19:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about verifying the source/s but the article itself says he was born in the 1930's and moved out of home in 1971 when he married Janette. I'm not sure how or why this particular piece of trivia is relevant... but anyway. Surely just "He married Janette in 1971" is sufficient? Naysie 13:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  True. As far as relevance, it's a biography. Would be interested to hear from anyone who knows whether or not his mother negotiated his first wage.Alans1977 18:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Howard did go and work overseas (UK) for some time after he graduated and before he married. It is relevant to his biography to say that apart from when he was o/s he lived at home. Mona H was a strong influence on all the boys and they have all grown up to have successful careers but the other three had left home earlier. Nobody has drawn any conclusions as to why he lived at home - perhaps it was a mix of convenience (his work and political activities taking up close to 100% of his time and he liked having someone willing to do his laundry and make his meals and to provide a bed to fall into when he got home) and filial devotion as by this time Mona was getting on and his companionship would have been important to her wellbeing. As to Mona negotiating his first wage, it seems that Rosenblum pere knew and admired her and articles were akin to an apprenticeship so it seems logical that she would have been consulted and involved when her youngest was taking the first very important decision about his career. Barnett, a Howard pal, has a bit to say about all of this but Skyring and his mates revert nearly everything lest it impinge on their efforts to have the Blessed John beatified. Albatross2147 00:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are giving Wikipedia a bit more influence than it actually has, but Jimbo is working on it. If it's factual, sourced, relevant and encyclopaedic, I have no problems with including material. --Pete 01:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It does seem logical that Howard's mother would've negotiated his first wage, however what I am in interested in is a source. Alans1977 07:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Can anyone confirm this

message: Someone (Hmette I think) observed that the article is a bit of a mess, and I agree. Particularly the sections on the 2001-2004 terms, and the current term, look like randomly added paragraphs. I'd like to propose dividing these sections into topical sub-sections rather than arranging them chronologically, on the basis that this is an encyclopedia article not a news page. For the current term, the material could be grouped under the sub-sections "Senate Majority", "Industrial 'Reforms'", "Asylum Seekers" (gone quiet now but it was big in 2005), "Iraq/Terrorism" (AWB would go there I guess), "Climate Change", (and the "Retirement" section could be moved there too). That would cover pretty well everything there, and make it read a whole lot better IMHO. Rocksong 11:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a mess, right enough. Suggest something more like Tony Blair, which has a coherence to it that this article lacks. I'd also like to see this become a biographical article about John Howard, rather than a political op shop. --Pete 20:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that it is a bio of a politician is going to mean that sections of it are political, this in my opinion is unavoidable and not necessarily a bad thing. Alans1977 21:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at Tony Blair's article, it's heavily political as well. But it's coherent and not over the top. Looking at this article, it brings in many subjects that are of incidental relevance to John Howard the politician. We should focus on his career and major policy inputs. --Pete 23:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tony Blair is split into Tony Blair and Prime Ministry of Tony Blair. The latter is organised like I suggest: major sections are the parliamentary terms, minor sections within each parliamentary term are topical rather than chronological. I don't think we need to split the Howard article (the split causes lots of needless repetition for one thing), but I do think we need to reorganise the sections on his Prime Ministry (is that the right word) - especially the recent ones - as I've outlined above. Rocksong 00:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  We should focus on his career and major policy inputs. Agreed. Good coverage on things like Tampa, Children Overboard, AWB, demonising minorities, failure to enlist for military service while supporting conscription and Vietnam, silence on Hanson, inability to hear questions properly, core and non-core, "Never ever", Pru Goward, rorts like continued very expensive residence at Kirribilli, cronyism, etc etc will make the article a worthwhile read Albatross2147 01:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I think there's general consensus to re-organise the article - the hard part will be sorting out the nuts and bolts. The logical place to start would be to identify appropriate headings. --Hmette 03:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reorganisation thoughts

message: One thing I've noticed a bit of in these two sections is quite a bit of speculation. Lines like "... may have helped him to retain the "battler" vote which, combined with his strong conservative base .." or " ... and contributed to a recovery by the government in the opinion polls", which may be true, however this does not seem to be encyclopedic to me at all. Another thing I've noticed is usage of language which is suggestive of achievements Howard has made, achievements which may not necessarily be attributed to him. For example, "... and the Australian economy remained strong, Howard retained a clear political advantage over his opponents" or "The strength of the Australian economy under Howard's leadership ...". While these sections may not right out credit Howard for the supposedly strong Australian economy, they certainly elude to that. Again to me this has no place in a encyclopia, especially as this is a matter of contention between various opinions (i.e. Howard is to credit for our current economic state V The Keating reforms are to credit for our current economic state V Government can do very little to influence an economy, this is far more influenced by world financial and trade markets). In some ways I thing these 1998 - 2001, 2001 - 2004 sort of sections should go altogether, as perhaps they are condusive to speculation and political point scoring. Perhaps it would be far better to talk about specific events in a factual manner, rather than trying to lay out some sort of a narrative. Just my opinion Alans1977 23:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections titled "Third term: 2001–2004" and "The 2004 election campaign"

message: An editor keeps trying to insert the POV phrase "attempted to sully" instead of "attacked" in reference to Mark Latham. Beside the fact it is a stupid phrase it pushes the POV that Howard was being dishonest in the criticism. It also assumes Lathams record was not already "sullied" something else that is POV.Prester John 23:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "attempted to sully" is in my opinion more NPOV than "attacked" given the context. In the context "attacked" makes it sound like what was being said by Howard was a valid criticism. This is debatable. The phrase "attempted to sully" more accurately describes what happens in political debates, where one side or both attempts to drag the other's standing through the mud. Alans1977 00:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: As for pushing a POV that Howard was being dishonest, I disagree. You can attempt to sully someone over something that they deserve to be sullied about.Alans1977 00:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with Prester John on this one, both as it being a silly phrase, and it carrying POV baggage. "Attack" is a fairly NPOV description for what Howard did. Rocksong 00:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not a big fan of the "Attempted to sully" phrase either, but the existing wording implies that there was a basis for "attacking". Whether there is or isn't is highly subjective. Something along the lines of John Howard claimed... could be better. Overall this paragraph is pretty poorly written and could probably do with a re-write. --Hmette 01:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PJ/Rocksong/Pete re-write: John Winston Howard walks on water and he is cute too. All further editing of this article is blocked. But for mine I like "sully" so I vote keep Albatross2147 03:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is riduculous. "Attack" is normal usage, "sully" is much more pejorative. I've shown one mainstream media report that Howard "attacked" Latham's economic record. Show me one that says he "sullied" or "attempted to sully", or concede the point. Rocksong 03:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had to laugh at the "attempted to sully" episode. You'd have to be totally one-eyed to imagine it as being more objective than "attacked". Attacking opponents (verbally, not literally) is what politicians do, and Paul Keating was the master of this. --Pete 17:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The issue of whether Howard "attacked" or "sullied" is probably not really a major hilight when considering the article as a whole. I suggest we focus on Rocksongs suggestion above and identify the overall themes of Howards leadership etc, and break it down into headings. There are a whole range of issues that were the subject of the 2004 campaign that would make a very long (and probably dull) book. Just off the top of my head, I'll have a go of identify some key themes. It may be that some sub-pages need to be created. Please don't all hurl abuse at once. --Hmette 04:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I decided to "be bold" and have a go at re-arranging. (No text changes). Feel free to criticise, or even revert if you think it totally sucks; though I don't see how I could have made it worse. Rocksong 09:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "attempted to sully"

message: Former PM Keating referred to Howard as a "desiccated cocomnut". Although this is trivial info, where could it be placed in the article? In a new "criticisms" section? 58.108.229.246 08:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Best not to include it at all. Kewpid 08:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't see how it's relevant to either article. Slac speak up! 08:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Desiccated coconut?

message: The other weekend whilst celebrating the 75th birthday of the Sydney Habour Bridge, with the other 200,000 people lucky enough to get a place walking over the bridge. Whilst walking I overheard some older gentleman discussing Francis de Groot and the New Guard. Whilst I knew they opposed Premier Lang's leftist policies, the ever emerging Red Peril, and numerous other things. I was rather interested to hear the Lyall Howard was a New Guard member. Is there any truth to this statement? --203.129.38.228 07:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a thesis manuscript on the history of the NG by a John James deposited at the Mitchell Library which i believe has some info on Howard père's invovement in NG activities which may not have included actual membership but perhaps supply of transport logistics for the bovver boys to Commo meetings with Walter snr. Someone ought to go and have a good look at it. Gerard Henderson is always at pains to down play the NG and any Howardian involvement so perhaps there is a hare to chase. Albatross2147 12:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One wonders how Lyall's racist and anti-unionist views influenced his own son's views and policies over the years.--203.129.51.122 08:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lyall Howard and The New Guard

message: Wikipedia has tons of "lists" as articles. Why not have a list of all the incidents that a politician tried to politicize terrorism by saying "the terrorists want him to win".... we all know it would be quite a substantial list, and it would help educate people on these political techniques (for better or worse, NPOV right?) by providing a comprehensive collection of such incidents in the political arena. Needless to say, Howard's comments about Obama would qualify for inclusion in such a list.
:It would never be allowed (NPOV and all that) :(. Still, I like the idea. Galanskov 02:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how including quotes of what Howard has said could not be considered NPOV (After all he did say it and the article is about him).Alans1977 21:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments about Obama, terrorism and elections