Talk:Right-wing politics/Archive 1

message: Since the definitions of Right-wing politics and Left-wing politics appear so inextricably tied together, I am proposing a higher-level page called Left-Right politics whose purpose is to discuss their definition.  That would allow the page for each wing to focus more on its unique characteristics (such as how it evolved in that country), rather than characterizing its opponents.  What do you think? Drernie 21:41, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I think thats a good idea, so long as "left" "right" and "left wing" and "right wing" all link to it JackLynch 03:05, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Right-Left together 

message: " However, in most western countries 19th-century laissez-faire economics is considered the traditional system, with 20th-century socialism a progressive departure, thus the advocates of the former are on the Right and the latter on the Left (though many would dispute this characterization). "
The very fact you have to mention that many, rather than some would object, should be a clue that this is not a good sentance. JackLynch 02:58, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be pointed out however, that Fascism as a right-wing group is inaccurate. Many of the philosophers of Fascism such as Robert Michel, Sergio Panunzio and Giovanni Gentile were originally syndicalists, a group identified with the left. Bennito Mussolini himself was originally a socialist. Fascism is really the control of the government in a developmental dictatorship where land, labor, and capital is subordinated under the state for the good of the nation. This is more in line with stalinism and maoism than the traditional agendas of the bourgeoisie. 
I think this falls in the tricky category of "technically true, but misleading." My own inclination is that at the very least, if this stands, there should be a reference to the article Nazism and socialism. However, this anonymous addition is really more about early Italian fascism than about how that and other fascist movements (such as Nazism) later played out, so that article is more an analogy to the issus at hand than actually addressing it.  
There is no question that early fascism had some roots on the left as well as the right, and that there were even some revolutionary elements in fascism as a philosophy (even at a late date), ones that were in some cases in common with socialism. (See for example Hitler's Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939 by David Schoenbaum, 0393315541). If I were so inclined, I could even list some Italian-American syndicalists who went to Italy to join the early fascist movement. 
On the other hand, I think it is ridiculous to deny that fascism as it has actually played out has been firmly a right-wing ideology. Yes, most fascism (like Maoism and Stalinism) is totalitarian, and not a particularly bourgeois movement (especially not a haute bourgeois movement), but the totalitarianism of Maoism and Stalinism is not what makes them leftist. In fact, many on the left would call Maoism, and especially Stalinism "pseudo-leftist" for exactly that reason. Virtually everywhere fascists have come to power (e.g. Italy in the 20s; Germany, Spain and others in the 30s; Argentina in the 70s), there have been mass imprisonments or executions of leftists. Fascists have not performed equivalent mass imprisonments or executions of rightists. That alone should speak volumes. While the origins of fascism are firmly petit bourgeois, fascism in power has inevitably made its peace with the haute  bourgeois, far more than with the working class.
World-wide, the bulk of international support for fascism has come from the political right. Look at how the US split on its attitudes towards Mussolini and Hitler in the 30s, or at how more recently the most ardent powerful US supporter of fascist regimes was Jesse Helms. 
The thing is, I don't want to turn the article on Right-wing politics into an extended essay on why fascism should be, with slight qualifications, classified as right-wing. Maybe that deserves an article of its own (analogous to Nazism and socialism)? Maybe a Fascism and right-wing politics, with a paragraph or two summary here, but the sifting of evidence elsewhere? Anyway, I'm going to wait until a few people have commented before I start such an approach. 
It would be very useful if the anonymous contributor would participate in this discussion, preferably after adopting some sort of user name, so that we can see what contributions come from a single person. -- Jmabel 08:19, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  deleted and moved here 

message: Sam Spade 07:47, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages|Be bold]]! 

message: Hey, I found this sentence confusing, and mildly impossible to learn anythin from, so I moved it here
   Some non-conservative groups also identify themselves as "on the right"
   (at least within some context) to indicate their opposition to the left,
   though such groups very likely dispute the left-right characterization
   altogether.
"Some groups" (which groups?) are "on the right", while being "un-conservative" (what does that mean?  I've never heard of "un-conservative"), though those same groups (which groups?) are not likely to use terms such as right/left (directly contradicts the first part of the sentence).
--141.156.18.180 20:27, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  some hard-to-understand text deleted to here 

message: I find this sentence inadequate, "However, the term got much of its modern understanding from early 20th century usage, where it was used to distinguish nationalism (right) from internationalism (left)." There is a glaring omission here and in the article in general of the left as the party of labor and of the right as the party of capital (or of property and power). Additionally, as for example, expressed as imperialism as in the British Empire, conservatism combined nationalism with developed internationalism as might be said to characterize the modern American Council on Foreign Relations. Fred Bauder 13:44, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
This edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Right-wing_politics&diff=3480375&oldid=3480342 I find excellent. If right-wing has no one definition, it has a number of generally accepted definitions (reminds me of the discussion of truth) some of  which are much more generally accepted and can be included in the article. Fred Bauder 13:49, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
This paragraph:
Early 20th century usage arranged parties to the right and left of ultimate principles. In that case, nationalism (right) was distinguished from internationalism (left). In later times, the reference has been in terms of ideologies of progress. As much as the left seeks progress by departure from the status quo, the right seeks progress by staying the course. For this characteristic resistance to scrapping tradition, right-wing elements are sometimes referred to by their opponents as, "reactionaries".
has some problems. The most glaring is the failure to connect "reactionary" to its etymological roots as the reaction to left-wing excesses such as those of the French Revolution and of communism as it unfolded in practice during the 20th century. Innovative right-wing movements often seek some resolution which would resolve some social tension while preserving or even enhancing the status quo, for example, the social welfare reforms initiated in Germany by Otto von Bismarck. On the left the lure of social reforms which do not change the underlying power structure are often opposed especially by Marxist-Leninists. Fred Bauder 14:10, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
These two paragraphs which were removed:
Today, conservatives often use the term "right" in a positive sense to refer to individual liberty and the social and economic institutions that support it, though the specific term "right-wing" has (until very recently) only been common in a negative usage by opponents. Fascist and neo-fascist groups also often embrace the term positively, which is one reason why mainline conservatives shun the term. + - + -Leftists often use the term "right-wing" as a pejorative label: they interpret the right as defending the traditional power of aristocrats, royalty, established religions and the wealthy against that of commoners. In this sense, the term has also become associated with nationalist or racist movements which promote the interests of a dominant majority, or, in cases such as apartheid-era South Africa, with a ruling minority, denying the rights of other groups. The radical right has associations with fascism or with terrorism, just as the radical left has associations with communism or with terrorism. Of course, most groups on the left and right tend to vigorously deny any such linkages
are very much about usage of the phrase rather than about the underlining phenomenon. As an encylopedia article coverage needs to be about the phenomena themselves. Fred Bauder 14:10, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
----
Let's try it this way, then.  1. Revert to the version prior to edits by User:Anonymous. 2. Add in the list items from the most recent anonymous edit.  and 3. Go from there. Mkmcconn — 17:01, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment on changes

message: A mention that the status (left or right) of facism is contested is necessary. Sam Spade 19:24, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've adjusted the section on fascism, modifying all statements which seemed to imply that fascism is part of a monolithic right wing, by limiting the terms of comparison. If I'm catching Sam Spade's reference correctly, I agree that it is a commonplace in many conservative writings, especially on economics, that there is a strong family resemblance between modern-day (American) "liberals", and the anti-libertarian rhetoric and policies of the fascists.  Mkmcconn — 20:11, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Left wing facism 

message: #As it stands, the article discusses several arguably leftist aspects of fascism, but says almost nothing about the rightist aspects. I would hope that the latter would be addressed before any expansion of the former, or this article will become very imbalanced.
#There is almost nothing in the article about conservatism or any other right-wing position except fascism. Yes, we have a perfectly good article on conservatism, but some of it should be here as a digest, in a section with an indication where the main article is.
#Similarly for "reactionary."
#Per a remark Fred Bauder made elsewhere, there should certainly be discussion of the relation of the contemporary right and capitalism. Probably (this is me now, not Fred) including the irony that the original right supported an ancien régime that was emphatically pre-capitalist. 
#Again, per a remark Fred made elsewhere, there should be some discussion of tradition, religion, and (my extrapolation) nationalism.
Jmabel 05:01, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: What the article needs

message: Comments/thoughts? Sam [Spade] 21:25, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite