Talk:Hokum

message: How does the term hokum, then, apply to the music of... C.W. Stoneking, for example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freshmaniac (talk • contribs) 09:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sexual innendos?

message: :Image:Bob Wills.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Bob Wills.jpg

message: Robert Johnson's link for example.
192.88.158.211 14:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shouldn't links go to the actual wiki-artical and not disambiguation pages?

message: :Image:Yazoo 1039.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 06:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Yazoo 1039.jpg

message: The image :Image:MJB1.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
*: Image:YazooLabel1.jpg
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --10:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:MJB1.jpg

message: As a genre within the blues, I think that a template should belong on the page like this, for Blues-rock: . It gives a sense of both authenticity and shows where hokum belongs in relation of the other approaches to the blues. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 00:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shouldn't there be the Blues template on the article page? 

message: There’s some good in this article, but all in all the article is weakened by insufficient inline citations. For just one instance, songs are claimed to be “American classics”, when they are not nearly unambiguously so. There are many titles in the bibliography to look at. Triplingual (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There’s also been a “footnotes needed” template on the page for nigh on 11 years now, but it’s not merely adding footnotes. Triplingual (talk) 17:24, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insufficient citations 

message: The dirty blues are apparently extremely close to hokum, some songs (cf. King Size Papa) are classified by different sources either way. At the very least, a reference to dirty blues deserves to be in the lead, not hidden at the bottom. It would be even better to explain the difference. Викидим (talk) 21:29, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: considers "hokum", "dirty blues", "bawdy blues" to be synonimous, see also . Pinging  who might know the background of the two articles. Викидим (talk) 21:39, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I do know the background of the dirty blues article, largely because I have been one of two main contributors (along with User:Ghmyrtle) since 2010.  I do not wish to brag or boast, but that article is very well referenced, both in terms of the main text, and the list of associated 'notable' songs.  If anyone cares to explore those references further, they make copious mention of 'dirty blues' and extremely rarely 'bawdy blues' or even 'hokum'.  The hokum article on the other hand, has few inline citations, although there is a list of 'sources', which are mainly publications or liner notes.  That lack of directly attributable references is presumably why there are two 'original research' tags in the article.  I have made few edits to that article, and do seriously question the validity of much of the text.  One of the few edits I have made (in August 2019) noted "NB. Various music historians describe many of these songs as dirty blues".  Perhaps a decent starting off point would be to look at a couple of dictionary definitions of both terms, to ascertain how near or far they are apart.  There is considerable overlap, for sure, as there so often is when music genres are concerned. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:05, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have started with a list of sources (below). A very long work on the subject (it is just a master's thesis, but a really comprehensive one) nicely distinguish the two (#4, #5 below). Some authors clearly treat the terms as synonyms, but their works are also not very authoritative. A robust source (#1) is ambivalent. So, unless someone objects, I am going to put some text about the links between hokum and dirty blues into into the lead of this article. My Portuguese is at the Google-translate level, unfortunately, but I might also try to rewrite the portions of the Hokum using Rocha as a source. Викидим (talk) 14:36, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Two weeks had expired with nobody objecting, so I am putting the gears into motion. Викидим (talk) 21:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, a lengthy enough timespan for objectors to have commented.  Frankly I think hokum is of minimal interest to almost all contributors, but it deserves a better article than the present one.  I will watch with interest, for my real work is elsewhere. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have started. I do not pretend to understand the subject well (I have very tangential interest here due mostly to Julia Lee (musician)), so feel free to fix my interpretation of the sources without any discussion. Викидим (talk) 03:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dirty blues 

message: This section is intended to serve as a list of sources on the commonalities / differences between hokum and dirty blues. Everyone is invited to contribute. --Викидим (talk) 13:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of sources 

message: The (unsourced) sections "Technique", "Minstrel show origins", "Subversion and confrontation", "Artistic dilemma" mostly discuss the Minstrel shows - but we have another article for that. The sheer weight of information seems to be out of proportion (cf. WP:UNDUE). Hokum is not a generic term for the blues songs with innuendo, it appears to be a specific style of "bouncy" songs popular in 1930s. Beaumont (see the source below) derives the blues humor from minstrel shows, vaudeville, medicine shows. Inside the blues genre Beaumont traces humor through classic blues, country blues, hokum in the 1930s, rhythm and blues in 1940s, Chicago blues in 1950s and 1960s. While undoubtedly minstrel shows are at the root of the hokum music, there are many other influences, and hokum is somewhat distanced from the minstrel shows. Therefore, I propose to delete the abovementioned sections altogether (if there is minstrel material there that is not duplicative in Minstrel shows, perhaps, it should be moved there) and replace it with a brief history section along the lines proposed by Beaumont and Rocha. Pinging the major contributor .     
* 
Викидим (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Two weeks passed without an objection, I am starting the pruning. Викидим (talk) 18:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove minstrel show sections? 

message: I plan to rewrite this section roughly along the lines "Sex and Booze" or "Dirty Humor" (I am hereby requesting suggestions for the new section name, as the current one does not fit well, IMHO). It should describe the non-musical aspect of what is called hokum subgenre. I will first collect the sources below, everyone is welcome to help edit this section. Викидим (talk) 19:17, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hokum in early blues 

message: This section includes some songs that do not fit the hokum definition at all (for example, the end of the list is all-country music and classic dirty blues). Some source for the list would be very nice. Викидим (talk) 20:50, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: A list of songs is available in Rocha's work, starting with p. 268. A lot of them are not hokum either, but they are all mentioned in the text and thus can be classified. Викидим (talk) 05:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Found a better song list: a discography in the Appendix to the Schwartz's work (see the sources). I am going to change the list according to this source. Викидим (talk) 21:55, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Sounds good. I'm glad you are making this a better article. Brianyoumans (talk) 23:43, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Due to particular interest of Schwartz in “It's Tight Like That” and, by extension. in "Shake That Thing", the list is overloaded with multiple recording of both. Some of the songs are definitely non-nokum, even though influenced by it. Feel free to trim, or suggest me where to trim. Викидим (talk) 22:45, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples of hokum 

message: The "Hokum#Hokum in early country music" section has no sources, tagged as such for a very long time. Whatever I was able to source is already in the Hokum#Legacy. I am planning to simply remove the Hokum in early country music altogether. Викидим (talk) 04:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hokum in early country music