Talk:Lioré et Olivier LeO 45

message: Nice start! Did the Italians really used the LeO.451 operationally? PpPachy 18:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what the Profile book says. Apparently it was only a few German-captured aircraft in limited service with 51st bombardment group of Regia Aeronautica and it flight school. - Emt147 Burninate! 18:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

message: The Armée de l'air under the Vichy government was the same organization as the Armée de l'air under the 3rd Republic. It does not deserve to be listed as a different operator, especially since the text explicitely mentions service during the 1940-42 Vichy era (although this section could be extended). PpPachy 13:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well... not all prewar French aircraft were operated by Vichy and we can't say in Operators section that France and Vichy were the same. For many people this is different operator just like different operator was Free French AF. You're right that Operators section repeat some info from previous sections but operators section can be expanded up to every unit level. This is another reason why Vichy should be listed as separate entry. Regards, Piotr Mikołajski 15:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But if we were to expand up to unit level, we would have mostly duplicate entries since the same units simply went from being under 3rd Republic to being under Pétain. The Vichy regime was the de facto government of France from July 10th 1940 and at least until late November 1942 (it was more of a puppet state afterwards, since 90% of its military had joined the Allies), so the Armée de l'air under this government is not a separate organization from the pre- and early war Armée de l'air. The government changed but the operators were the same, IMHO. PpPachy 17:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some entries will be duplicated but some will not. Remember that not all units went under Petain's command and some units received new types after July 10th. With splitting operators we can show all these details and can show in clear and readable way how many units and what equipment was used in Vichy. We have very similar situation with Soviet Union and Russia. Some Soviet Air Force units became Russia Air Force units with the same personnel and the same equipment. Regards, Piotr Mikołajski 18:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally speaking, only individuals joined the Free French, who formed entirely new units with these individuals. So, the Free French would be a valid entry under the "operators" list, but they did not use the LeO. Also generally speaking, Vichy inherited 100% of units previously existing, and was very much discouraged by Armistice conditions from forming new units or converting to new types, so its OOB is pretty much the June 1940 OOB minus a few disbanded units. PpPachy 20:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operators 

message: Pachy,
Is it possible the French could have used the R-1830 in 1940 had they not surrendered?
Was the Gnome engine in short supply, or was the R-1830 a better choice, that could have caused earlier implementation?
--Flightsoffancy (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi! Yes, like the Bloch MB.153 (test flown, but abandoned) or the Breguet 695 (operationally used in small numbers), the LeO.453 was actually a pre-Armistice project using a foreign engine. I am not sure as to why alternatives were contemplated, but production capability possibly was one of the reasons. Prewar variants of the R-1830 were not more powerful than the 14Ns, which is why the MB.153 was not proceeded with. They were however much, much more reliable! PpPachy (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  453, Pre-war plans used after the war?