Talk:Led Zeppelin/Archive 3

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Coda_%28album%29#Compilation.3F Please leave some comments on your opinions. Lord revan 21:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  have a look at this and tell me what you think 

message: I think I speak for many when I say this article is badly in need of more photos with good captions--especially concert photos.  This would aid in breaking up the large swathes of text, so it would be great if some good image contributers could help out with this.  Two photos is a ridiculously small amount for an article of this size.  Thanks. 71.76.219.92 03:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Photos Please 

message: I MEAN C'MON NOW, MARIAH CAREY? THAT'S  LAUGHABLE, AND NOT LED ZEPPELIN? YOU PEOPLE FAIL HORRIBLY Zabrak 20:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LETS PUT THESE GODS INTO A FEATURED ARTICLE 

message: This statement:
Almost thirty years after the group decided they were unable to continue after the death of drummer John Bonham in 1980...
Does not make sense.  I don't know exactly when they decided to call it quits, but it certainly wasn't 30 years after Bonham died.  The smallest number would be on the order of 12 years (68ish to 80).  
Bbonet 04:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (No offense but) you're just reading it wrongly. It's not refering to how many years they lasted; it's refering to how many years after Bonham died. Though, it is pretty wordy. I'll shorten it. Sykil 15:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange sentence in regards to timeline 

message: An anonymous contributor is insisting that the entire discography and trivia sections be deleted.  Just about every Featured Article that we have on Wikipedia for a band has a discography in the main article, sometimes with an expanded discography in a separate section.  It's absolutely vital part of any good article on a band, because... well, it's what they've produced, right?  Remember, Wikipedia:The perfect article "is nearly self-contained; i.e., it includes essential information and terminology, and is comprehensible by itself, without requiring significant reading of other articles." 
As for the trivia section, it brings some interesting little bits of additional information into the article. If it's being removed because of concerns about the length of the article, then let's address that massive chunk of text in the History section that comprises much of the article; perhaps pare it down, move a lot of the extraneous detail to a separate article, and make it less imposing for a casual reader.  -/- Warren 18:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions 

message: I just had a quick look through your article, and it seems to me that the listing of "Moby Dick" as a uncredited cover of the Estes song is not correct.  Moby Dick is a long drum solo with  an instrumental intro. and ending.  The Zeppelin song off the BBC sessions "The Girl I Love She Got Long Black Wavy Hair" IS a cover of the Estes song and is credited as such.  Moby Dick uses a similar guitar riff, but has no lyrics.  Moby Dick actually came out of a concert drum solo by Bonham called "Pat's Delight".  147.155.2.164 01:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even as another fan, I concur.  This is a key part to Zeppelin history.  I'm surprised the blues artists made such little of it... I don't even care about them not paying these guys but not to acknowledge them as the writers of songs that went on to be so popular?--Zoso Jade 15:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Change in Controversy section

message: I don't know much about Led Zeppelin, but in my opinion, the following sentences (appearing in the first section of the article) need to be rephrased:
"Page had joined the Yardbirds in 1966 playing bass guitar while rhythm guitarist Chris Dreja became comfortable with that instrument, then switching to lead guitar."
The last part is misleading: Who switched to lead guitar? Was it Dreja or Page? Usually one refers to the last mentioned person, which is Dreja. However, it would be strange if Dreja switched to lead guitar, because, then, why was he getting comfortable with "that instrument", which is bass guitar?
So please, make clear who switched to lead guitar. To make this clear, maybe we need EM dashes around "while rhythm guitarist Chris Dreja became comfortable with that instrument"? Or something else. Just rephrase it please, to make it clear.
: I agree, it's clumsy writing. I've added parentheses - further clarification might become long winded, so if this still doesn't work, I'd recommend cutting it to say only that Page joined the Yardbirds in 1968, and played lead guitar.
:"Led Zeppelin was formed in 1968 by Jimmy Page. Page had joined the Yardbirds in 1966, first playing bass guitar (while rhythm guitarist Chris Dreja became comfortable with that instrument), then switching to lead guitar."
:Better? TheMadBaron 22:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rephrase 

message: "On the description of Zep's sound, the genre "country" is included. I think whoever put that needs to give an example on here or there of a country song by Zep. Otherwise, it needs to go. I don't think I've ever heard Plant singing country..."
In my time of dying and Gallows Pole.  It definately isn't conventional country but the connection is definately there.  Country and folk are interchangable phrases in many cases.
I am the person who put country there.  I did a research project on rock and roll and have thurough knowledge of the subject on many levels.  In my time of dying and Gallows Pole are examples, but what about Tangerine and Bron-Y-Aur Stomp amongst many others??  Let me know if you need more examples, but for now I have changed it back to say country and maybe it needs more debate...
Just listened to some Zeppelin not too long ago, and was surprised to hear the song "Hot Dog." There's definite country influence there. Perhaps it was meant to be more humorous and a bit derisive, but nonetheless, it was definitely a country/rock song. So I now agree that Zep did have some country influence, albeit small.
How was it "small"? Just because they didn't record whole albums of country songs? Just because a band isn't playing that genre on an album per album basis dose not mean that style of music only played a small role in their influence. Just take a well known country singer (Kenny Rogers for example) he was heavily influenced by Jazz, but you wouldn't be able to tell it by listening to his Greatest Hits CD! 74.65.39.59 02:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Country???

message: 07/23/2006
I read this and am irritated by the use of "were" versus "was".  "Were" is typically used with a plural subject, "was" with a singular.  They "were", he "was", etc.  
Led Zeppelin is a singular, not a plural.  It is a singular entity.
Which sounds better?
"Led Zeppelin were an English rock band, and are widely regarded as one of the most popular and influential music groups of all time."
OR
"Led Zeppelin was an English rock band widely regarded as one of the most popular and influential music groups of all time."
: OR "Led Zeppelin wasn't an English rock band not particularly widely regarded as almost one of the most popular and perhaps slightly influential musicality groups of all tea-times." I think you'll agree this is best.
As for external links, there are a few very good ones related to live Zeppelin recordings (bootlegs) that may be of interest to readers of the article.  www.stryder.de, www.royal-orleans.com, and http://uuweb.led-zeppelin.us/.  I think these should be added, unless anyone has any objections...  
Also, should John Paul Jones personal site should be on the external links, www.johnpauljones.com?  I know he has his own page, so I don't know if this article's external links needs to be cluttered up.
 Led Zeppelin was is American
 Led Zeppelin were is British
 Led Zeppelin and is Wubbish
:We had the same problem about plural vs singular on the Queen page, and it was agreed, that, because it was a problem with American English vs British English, it should be done with the bands country, in which Led Zeppelin are/were (not is/was) is correct. This is because they are British, and accoring to the usage rules, it should be the country from which the entity orginates. If you would like to view the Queen discussion, here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Queen_%28band%29/Archive_2#Singular_or_Plural 
:I hope this helps to clear things up. Billvoltage 01:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Led Zeppelin, a group. A group, more than one, not singular! Led Zeppelin were the best & one of the most influential groups of all time! 886Zeppelin 22:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar Errors? 

message: (then had to sign off - sorry!)
 
Hi all - I'm belatedly explaining my recent revert on the article.  I reverted an edit by an IP that changed the rather controversial statement being discussed here at length and also deleted the links to Led Zeppelin in other language Wikis.  I reverted the edit because for two reasons:
#the discussion on this talk page about that statement is not complete, so it should not be changed yet and
#it removed the links to Zeppelin in other language Wikipedias.
 
I'd like to clear the air and let everyone know that I have no opinion on the statement, despite what some may think.  I don't know too much about Zeppelin, so I'm abstaining from the discussion.  Additionally, I'd like to remind the IP user that links to other language Wikipedias should not be removed from an article and that care should be taken in edit summaries (WP:CIVIL).  This goes for Mark as well. Srose (talk) 19:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted anon edit a bit ago... 

message: John Entwistle's phrase was specifically about a "lead zeppelin". Not a "lead balloon". If all he and Keith had suggested was a "lead ballon" then they wouldn't get credit for coming up with the name. John Entwistle even came up with an album cover design that inspired the cover art of Led Zeppelin's first album. 24.49.83.40 00:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How can you be so sure? I was under the impression that nobody really remembers exactly what was said. --TheMadBaron 20:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: He might merely have inspired the name with his comment. Page might have just thought that Zeppellin sounded better than balloon. He'd be right. I'm inclined to think that Moon probably said "balloon", partly because that's the version of the story I first heard, maybe thirty years ago, but also because I can't see why anybody would ever have claimed that he said "balloon" if he didn't. But let's face it - as inconvenient as it might be, we just don't really know, and probably never will. --TheMadBaron 14:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think "Hammer of the Gods" actually states that John Entwistle was the person who made the "lead balloon" comment, although I've also seen it attributed to Moon.  InTheFlesh? 16:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Band Name Origin 

message: "Presence was a platinum seller, but the album received mixed responses from critics and fans; while some appreciated the looser style, others dismissed it as sloppy, and some critics speculated that the band member's legendary excesses might have caught up with them at last. The time "Presence" was recorded marked the beginning of Page's injecting heroin, which may have interfered with Led Zeppelin's later live shows and studio recordings, although Page has denied this."
How about citations on some of these things, including the reviews? 
Like this from Rolling Stone:
http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/ledzeppelin/albums/album/224305/review/5945483/presence
That's just an example obviously.
--FrasierC 17:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. Do it. --TheMadBaron 20:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: I can't help thinking that the list of cover versions should be reduced or  summarised. That so many covers exist is certainly worth noting, but the list can never include all commercially released covers (there are more than 100 versions of "Stairway to Heaven" alone), and the selection seems to be somewhat arbitrary. --TheMadBaron 04:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samples, covers, and tributes 

message: IMO, the article is a little too "dry" for it's subject.... 
"If the band's popularity on stage and record was impressive, so too was its reputation for excess and off-stage wildness. Led Zeppelin traveled in a private jet (nicknamed The Starship), rented out entire sections of hotels (most notably the Continental Hyatt House in Los Angeles), and became the subject of many of rock's most famous stories of debauchery. Tales of trashed hotel rooms and groupies have become more extraordinary with each passing year. Several people associated with the band, such as tour manager Richard Cole, would later write books about the wild escapades of the group."
I think this could be expanded. For example, somrthing about the legend concerning Led Zeppelin pleasuring a groupie with a mud shark  would liven the article up a bit.
"Malicious critics and superstitious fans imputed the bands' misfortunes to a "curse", said to be related to Page's supposed interest in the occult."
This is another part of the Led Zep legend which could be expanded. Worthy additions might include the dubious allegations concerning Pages actions at the time of Bonhams death ("he stood over him wearing Satanist robes and performing a useless spell" ) and the alleged backwards messages in "Stairway to Heaven". --TheMadBaron 04:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rumours.... 

message: Is there a Led Zeppelin wikiproject?
If not, would someone like to help me organize one? Billvoltage 01:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Project?

message: "Robert suffered a broken ankle and Maureen was very badly injured; a flight back to London and a timely blood transfusion saving her life."
This is odd. The implication is that facilities for blood transfusion didn't exist in Greece in 1975, which seems scarcely credible. If the flight came before the transfusion, then, far from saving her life, it might have killed her. I would speculate that it was the transfusion alone which saved her life, and was then followed by the flight, which didn't. Does anybody have a reliable account of the events surrounding the accident? TheMadBaron 20:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blood transfusion 

message: Seriously people, just because one band said a bad thing about the band does not mean we have to start a whole article about it people, I mean people say bad things about Elvis, that does not mean we have to start a whole criticism article ABOUT Elvis. I mean people said bad things about The Beatles, that does not mean we have to start a whole criticism article about The Beatles, okay? -TheBird71.236.225.50 19:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Got rid of the whole criticism article 

message: I see the legacy but I don't see any criticism... --FK65 20:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy and Criticism

message: This page says the winged dude for Swan Song Records is Icarus, but is mistaken for apollo (etc) BUT swan songs page says that it is apollo and is mistaken for icarus (etc) so which is it? Apollo, or icarus?
It is Apollo, the logo is clearly based off of William Rimmer's painting Evening: Fall of Day, and in addition to numerous sources on the internet saying it's Apollo in the painting, the name of the painting is Evening: Fall of Day, portraying the SUN God falling. So it's Apollo.
:Led Zeppelin#Houses of the Holy - It also contradicts the William Rimmer article. -th1rt3en 21:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems odd, since Apollo is typically depicted as clothed, wingless, and driving a chariot (the sun was the chariot's wheel). Which 'sources on the internet' say it's Apollo? Are these sources from the art world, or are they Zeppelin pages? Are there any other examples in ancient or modern art of a winged Apollo? MFNickster 00:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: List both sources, and both explanations.  WesleyDodds 07:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icarus or Apollo? 

message: Where was LZ's first US concert.  I was at the one in Denver in Dec 1968 (I believe the date is correct) and I thought it was their first in the US.  Now I here that there was one in CA before that. In Denver they opened for Vanilla Fudge if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks for any clarifying info.
::I just quickly checked three sources all of which note 26 December 
::as the first date in the US in Denver Colorado. 
::The question is, which to cite. :-)
::Godwin's Illustrated Collector's Guide, Shinko Music's Archive Series vol.7 on Led Zeppelin 
::or the somewhat controversial Richard Cole book? I'm sure there are more. 
:: - Rockthing 15:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FIRST U.S. CONCERT 

message: I found it strange to compare Led Zeppelin's colorful clothing to Liberace's. I can't think of two more different artists, with different audiences from different generations. Rock bands had been wearing colorful, outrageous clothing since the 60's. Furthermore, I think Liberace started wearing his signature extravagant costumes in the 50's. Therefore, I don't think there is any relation between their clothing choices.
TrampledUF 04:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why compare to Liberace? 

message: I'd like to add my humble oppinion on the discussion of led zeppelin's influence if i may. I read the discussion and was puzzled to hear poeple questioning the popularity and influence of the band. One comment made was that someone could'nt even see the influence that the band had in the 80's. I would combat this statement with the fact that guns'n'roses, as much as i despise them, identify Led Zeppelin as one of their major influences. As Guns'n'Roses were one of the biggest acts in the late 80's it is made quite evident of there influence. Another to bands that started in earlier era's that peeked in the 80's, Queen and Aerosmith, also identify Led as a major forerunner of their own work. Roger Taylor was recently Quoted at an awards evening saying "we nicked loads of our stuff from them" a blatant admitance of influence in Queen's work.
Another element of their influence that people havn't considered is jimmy Page's influence and inventiveness as a producer. Once you start to look deeply into the way he produced Led albums you uncover that he's techniques were revolutionary. Every thing down to the way he micked the drum kit was new and bordering on genius. This production method produced a perfectionist's final product resulting in a nrilliant new sound in hard rock for others to follow. This kind of production has even influenced the likes of Radiohead's johnny Greenwood, Greenwood has adopted the role of Lead guitarist/producer that Page practicly invented.
As for the claim that they are no longer an influence in modern music or even popular i say this dear sirs. They are one of the only bands to exceed 250 million album sales , and as they only sold around half of these during their time as a band this proves that they have an ongoing and extensive fan base. Modern artists such as wolfmother, muse and White stripes take huge influence from them. So maybe they bear no relivence to your average music fan of today, but this is a time when the tedious likes of johny borrel and the feeling (with their koo koo koo crazy's)top the charts. Led Zeppelin created sophisticated, inovative and difficult music. In a time when the bar chord is the only chord bands know the existance of maybe Led Zeppelin aren't that influential, but to me thats a comment on modern day music. At the end of the day the artists that push the boundaries of modern music never deny the influence of Led Zeppelin. So therefore the fact that not many bands sound like Led is because they just can't pull it off. If you look a little deeper yousee that the band had a profound affect on the music industry. Thanks.........
:Led Zeppelin is one of the most influential rock bands ever; I find it odd that people would say that their influence wasn't present in the 80s.  On the contrary, for decades they were the most influential heavy metal band (a placethat Black Sabbath has since usurped).  Aerosmith, Van Halen, Whitesnake, Kingdom Come, Jane's Addiction, Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Stone Temple Pilots are just bands off the top of my head that were influenced by Zeppelin.  WesleyDodds 08:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence on other bands 

message: I believe the following sentence is slightly incorrect.
"The striking orange album cover of "Houses of the Holy" features images of nude children (girls) climbing "
According to 
Manning, Toby. "Broad Church", Q Led Zeppelin Special Edition, 2003.
The models for the cover were Stephan and Samantha Gates.
So they are not both girls. 
Inaccurate information from Manning is not entirely out of
the question, however.
I considered removing only the '(girls)' from this section of
the article.
But I believe it may be better to change the text to read, 
"male and female children" with a citation of 
the above article.
- Rockthing 13:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can do it, do it. I would, but I don't have the proper references... Remember be bold Billvoltage 12:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  :-) I did it. Still trying not to ruffle too many feathers as I've no  history of contributing to pages that many have put a lot of time and effort into. Thanks for the reminder/encouragement - Rockthing 14:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Houses Of The Holy 

message: Hi - I was hoping fans of LZ could create a list of books about the band. I'd like to read more, and know some of the best and notable histories in publication. Thanks. --Stbalbach 15:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: Why is Led Zeppelin described as a "satanistic" band?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.81.25.154 (talk) 20:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont care what anyone says, i've listened to stairway to heaven played backwards literally dozens of times and there are NO backwards lyrics. Also, Robert plant wrote most of the songs, not page. But most important of all, Crowley was NOT a satanist. he practiced magic but not satanic magic. Captanpluto123 03:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A "Satanistic" band??  

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Coda_%28album%29#Compilation.3F Please leave some comments on your opinions. Lord revan 21:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  have a look at this and tell me what you think 

message: I think I speak for many when I say this article is badly in need of more photos with good captions--especially concert photos.  This would aid in breaking up the large swathes of text, so it would be great if some good image contributers could help out with this.  Two photos is a ridiculously small amount for an article of this size.  Thanks. 71.76.219.92 03:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Photos Please 

message: I MEAN C'MON NOW, MARIAH CAREY? THAT'S  LAUGHABLE, AND NOT LED ZEPPELIN? YOU PEOPLE FAIL HORRIBLY Zabrak 20:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LETS PUT THESE GODS INTO A FEATURED ARTICLE 

message: This statement:
Almost thirty years after the group decided they were unable to continue after the death of drummer John Bonham in 1980...
Does not make sense.  I don't know exactly when they decided to call it quits, but it certainly wasn't 30 years after Bonham died.  The smallest number would be on the order of 12 years (68ish to 80).  
Bbonet 04:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (No offense but) you're just reading it wrongly. It's not refering to how many years they lasted; it's refering to how many years after Bonham died. Though, it is pretty wordy. I'll shorten it. Sykil 15:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange sentence in regards to timeline 

message: An anonymous contributor is insisting that the entire discography and trivia sections be deleted.  Just about every Featured Article that we have on Wikipedia for a band has a discography in the main article, sometimes with an expanded discography in a separate section.  It's absolutely vital part of any good article on a band, because... well, it's what they've produced, right?  Remember, Wikipedia:The perfect article "is nearly self-contained; i.e., it includes essential information and terminology, and is comprehensible by itself, without requiring significant reading of other articles." 
As for the trivia section, it brings some interesting little bits of additional information into the article. If it's being removed because of concerns about the length of the article, then let's address that massive chunk of text in the History section that comprises much of the article; perhaps pare it down, move a lot of the extraneous detail to a separate article, and make it less imposing for a casual reader.  -/- Warren 18:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions 

message: I just had a quick look through your article, and it seems to me that the listing of "Moby Dick" as a uncredited cover of the Estes song is not correct.  Moby Dick is a long drum solo with  an instrumental intro. and ending.  The Zeppelin song off the BBC sessions "The Girl I Love She Got Long Black Wavy Hair" IS a cover of the Estes song and is credited as such.  Moby Dick uses a similar guitar riff, but has no lyrics.  Moby Dick actually came out of a concert drum solo by Bonham called "Pat's Delight".  147.155.2.164 01:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even as another fan, I concur.  This is a key part to Zeppelin history.  I'm surprised the blues artists made such little of it... I don't even care about them not paying these guys but not to acknowledge them as the writers of songs that went on to be so popular?--Zoso Jade 15:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Change in Controversy section

message: I don't know much about Led Zeppelin, but in my opinion, the following sentences (appearing in the first section of the article) need to be rephrased:
"Page had joined the Yardbirds in 1966 playing bass guitar while rhythm guitarist Chris Dreja became comfortable with that instrument, then switching to lead guitar."
The last part is misleading: Who switched to lead guitar? Was it Dreja or Page? Usually one refers to the last mentioned person, which is Dreja. However, it would be strange if Dreja switched to lead guitar, because, then, why was he getting comfortable with "that instrument", which is bass guitar?
So please, make clear who switched to lead guitar. To make this clear, maybe we need EM dashes around "while rhythm guitarist Chris Dreja became comfortable with that instrument"? Or something else. Just rephrase it please, to make it clear.
: I agree, it's clumsy writing. I've added parentheses - further clarification might become long winded, so if this still doesn't work, I'd recommend cutting it to say only that Page joined the Yardbirds in 1968, and played lead guitar.
:"Led Zeppelin was formed in 1968 by Jimmy Page. Page had joined the Yardbirds in 1966, first playing bass guitar (while rhythm guitarist Chris Dreja became comfortable with that instrument), then switching to lead guitar."
:Better? TheMadBaron 22:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rephrase 

message: "On the description of Zep's sound, the genre "country" is included. I think whoever put that needs to give an example on here or there of a country song by Zep. Otherwise, it needs to go. I don't think I've ever heard Plant singing country..."
In my time of dying and Gallows Pole.  It definately isn't conventional country but the connection is definately there.  Country and folk are interchangable phrases in many cases.
I am the person who put country there.  I did a research project on rock and roll and have thurough knowledge of the subject on many levels.  In my time of dying and Gallows Pole are examples, but what about Tangerine and Bron-Y-Aur Stomp amongst many others??  Let me know if you need more examples, but for now I have changed it back to say country and maybe it needs more debate...
Just listened to some Zeppelin not too long ago, and was surprised to hear the song "Hot Dog." There's definite country influence there. Perhaps it was meant to be more humorous and a bit derisive, but nonetheless, it was definitely a country/rock song. So I now agree that Zep did have some country influence, albeit small.
How was it "small"? Just because they didn't record whole albums of country songs? Just because a band isn't playing that genre on an album per album basis dose not mean that style of music only played a small role in their influence. Just take a well known country singer (Kenny Rogers for example) he was heavily influenced by Jazz, but you wouldn't be able to tell it by listening to his Greatest Hits CD! 74.65.39.59 02:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Country???

message: 07/23/2006
I read this and am irritated by the use of "were" versus "was".  "Were" is typically used with a plural subject, "was" with a singular.  They "were", he "was", etc.  
Led Zeppelin is a singular, not a plural.  It is a singular entity.
Which sounds better?
"Led Zeppelin were an English rock band, and are widely regarded as one of the most popular and influential music groups of all time."
OR
"Led Zeppelin was an English rock band widely regarded as one of the most popular and influential music groups of all time."
: OR "Led Zeppelin wasn't an English rock band not particularly widely regarded as almost one of the most popular and perhaps slightly influential musicality groups of all tea-times." I think you'll agree this is best.
As for external links, there are a few very good ones related to live Zeppelin recordings (bootlegs) that may be of interest to readers of the article.  www.stryder.de, www.royal-orleans.com, and http://uuweb.led-zeppelin.us/.  I think these should be added, unless anyone has any objections...  
Also, should John Paul Jones personal site should be on the external links, www.johnpauljones.com?  I know he has his own page, so I don't know if this article's external links needs to be cluttered up.
 Led Zeppelin was is American
 Led Zeppelin were is British
 Led Zeppelin and is Wubbish
:We had the same problem about plural vs singular on the Queen page, and it was agreed, that, because it was a problem with American English vs British English, it should be done with the bands country, in which Led Zeppelin are/were (not is/was) is correct. This is because they are British, and accoring to the usage rules, it should be the country from which the entity orginates. If you would like to view the Queen discussion, here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Queen_%28band%29/Archive_2#Singular_or_Plural 
:I hope this helps to clear things up. Billvoltage 01:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Led Zeppelin, a group. A group, more than one, not singular! Led Zeppelin were the best & one of the most influential groups of all time! 886Zeppelin 22:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar Errors? 

message: (then had to sign off - sorry!)
 
Hi all - I'm belatedly explaining my recent revert on the article.  I reverted an edit by an IP that changed the rather controversial statement being discussed here at length and also deleted the links to Led Zeppelin in other language Wikis.  I reverted the edit because for two reasons:
#the discussion on this talk page about that statement is not complete, so it should not be changed yet and
#it removed the links to Zeppelin in other language Wikipedias.
 
I'd like to clear the air and let everyone know that I have no opinion on the statement, despite what some may think.  I don't know too much about Zeppelin, so I'm abstaining from the discussion.  Additionally, I'd like to remind the IP user that links to other language Wikipedias should not be removed from an article and that care should be taken in edit summaries (WP:CIVIL).  This goes for Mark as well. Srose (talk) 19:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted anon edit a bit ago... 

message: John Entwistle's phrase was specifically about a "lead zeppelin". Not a "lead balloon". If all he and Keith had suggested was a "lead ballon" then they wouldn't get credit for coming up with the name. John Entwistle even came up with an album cover design that inspired the cover art of Led Zeppelin's first album. 24.49.83.40 00:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How can you be so sure? I was under the impression that nobody really remembers exactly what was said. --TheMadBaron 20:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: He might merely have inspired the name with his comment. Page might have just thought that Zeppellin sounded better than balloon. He'd be right. I'm inclined to think that Moon probably said "balloon", partly because that's the version of the story I first heard, maybe thirty years ago, but also because I can't see why anybody would ever have claimed that he said "balloon" if he didn't. But let's face it - as inconvenient as it might be, we just don't really know, and probably never will. --TheMadBaron 14:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think "Hammer of the Gods" actually states that John Entwistle was the person who made the "lead balloon" comment, although I've also seen it attributed to Moon.  InTheFlesh? 16:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Band Name Origin 

message: "Presence was a platinum seller, but the album received mixed responses from critics and fans; while some appreciated the looser style, others dismissed it as sloppy, and some critics speculated that the band member's legendary excesses might have caught up with them at last. The time "Presence" was recorded marked the beginning of Page's injecting heroin, which may have interfered with Led Zeppelin's later live shows and studio recordings, although Page has denied this."
How about citations on some of these things, including the reviews? 
Like this from Rolling Stone:
http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/ledzeppelin/albums/album/224305/review/5945483/presence
That's just an example obviously.
--FrasierC 17:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. Do it. --TheMadBaron 20:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: I can't help thinking that the list of cover versions should be reduced or  summarised. That so many covers exist is certainly worth noting, but the list can never include all commercially released covers (there are more than 100 versions of "Stairway to Heaven" alone), and the selection seems to be somewhat arbitrary. --TheMadBaron 04:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samples, covers, and tributes 

message: IMO, the article is a little too "dry" for it's subject.... 
"If the band's popularity on stage and record was impressive, so too was its reputation for excess and off-stage wildness. Led Zeppelin traveled in a private jet (nicknamed The Starship), rented out entire sections of hotels (most notably the Continental Hyatt House in Los Angeles), and became the subject of many of rock's most famous stories of debauchery. Tales of trashed hotel rooms and groupies have become more extraordinary with each passing year. Several people associated with the band, such as tour manager Richard Cole, would later write books about the wild escapades of the group."
I think this could be expanded. For example, somrthing about the legend concerning Led Zeppelin pleasuring a groupie with a mud shark  would liven the article up a bit.
"Malicious critics and superstitious fans imputed the bands' misfortunes to a "curse", said to be related to Page's supposed interest in the occult."
This is another part of the Led Zep legend which could be expanded. Worthy additions might include the dubious allegations concerning Pages actions at the time of Bonhams death ("he stood over him wearing Satanist robes and performing a useless spell" ) and the alleged backwards messages in "Stairway to Heaven". --TheMadBaron 04:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rumours.... 

message: Is there a Led Zeppelin wikiproject?
If not, would someone like to help me organize one? Billvoltage 01:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Project?

message: "Robert suffered a broken ankle and Maureen was very badly injured; a flight back to London and a timely blood transfusion saving her life."
This is odd. The implication is that facilities for blood transfusion didn't exist in Greece in 1975, which seems scarcely credible. If the flight came before the transfusion, then, far from saving her life, it might have killed her. I would speculate that it was the transfusion alone which saved her life, and was then followed by the flight, which didn't. Does anybody have a reliable account of the events surrounding the accident? TheMadBaron 20:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blood transfusion 

message: Seriously people, just because one band said a bad thing about the band does not mean we have to start a whole article about it people, I mean people say bad things about Elvis, that does not mean we have to start a whole criticism article ABOUT Elvis. I mean people said bad things about The Beatles, that does not mean we have to start a whole criticism article about The Beatles, okay? -TheBird71.236.225.50 19:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Got rid of the whole criticism article 

message: I see the legacy but I don't see any criticism... --FK65 20:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy and Criticism

message: This page says the winged dude for Swan Song Records is Icarus, but is mistaken for apollo (etc) BUT swan songs page says that it is apollo and is mistaken for icarus (etc) so which is it? Apollo, or icarus?
It is Apollo, the logo is clearly based off of William Rimmer's painting Evening: Fall of Day, and in addition to numerous sources on the internet saying it's Apollo in the painting, the name of the painting is Evening: Fall of Day, portraying the SUN God falling. So it's Apollo.
:Led Zeppelin#Houses of the Holy - It also contradicts the William Rimmer article. -th1rt3en 21:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems odd, since Apollo is typically depicted as clothed, wingless, and driving a chariot (the sun was the chariot's wheel). Which 'sources on the internet' say it's Apollo? Are these sources from the art world, or are they Zeppelin pages? Are there any other examples in ancient or modern art of a winged Apollo? MFNickster 00:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: List both sources, and both explanations.  WesleyDodds 07:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icarus or Apollo? 

message: Where was LZ's first US concert.  I was at the one in Denver in Dec 1968 (I believe the date is correct) and I thought it was their first in the US.  Now I here that there was one in CA before that. In Denver they opened for Vanilla Fudge if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks for any clarifying info.
::I just quickly checked three sources all of which note 26 December 
::as the first date in the US in Denver Colorado. 
::The question is, which to cite. :-)
::Godwin's Illustrated Collector's Guide, Shinko Music's Archive Series vol.7 on Led Zeppelin 
::or the somewhat controversial Richard Cole book? I'm sure there are more. 
:: - Rockthing 15:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FIRST U.S. CONCERT 

message: I found it strange to compare Led Zeppelin's colorful clothing to Liberace's. I can't think of two more different artists, with different audiences from different generations. Rock bands had been wearing colorful, outrageous clothing since the 60's. Furthermore, I think Liberace started wearing his signature extravagant costumes in the 50's. Therefore, I don't think there is any relation between their clothing choices.
TrampledUF 04:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why compare to Liberace? 

message: I'd like to add my humble oppinion on the discussion of led zeppelin's influence if i may. I read the discussion and was puzzled to hear poeple questioning the popularity and influence of the band. One comment made was that someone could'nt even see the influence that the band had in the 80's. I would combat this statement with the fact that guns'n'roses, as much as i despise them, identify Led Zeppelin as one of their major influences. As Guns'n'Roses were one of the biggest acts in the late 80's it is made quite evident of there influence. Another to bands that started in earlier era's that peeked in the 80's, Queen and Aerosmith, also identify Led as a major forerunner of their own work. Roger Taylor was recently Quoted at an awards evening saying "we nicked loads of our stuff from them" a blatant admitance of influence in Queen's work.
Another element of their influence that people havn't considered is jimmy Page's influence and inventiveness as a producer. Once you start to look deeply into the way he produced Led albums you uncover that he's techniques were revolutionary. Every thing down to the way he micked the drum kit was new and bordering on genius. This production method produced a perfectionist's final product resulting in a nrilliant new sound in hard rock for others to follow. This kind of production has even influenced the likes of Radiohead's johnny Greenwood, Greenwood has adopted the role of Lead guitarist/producer that Page practicly invented.
As for the claim that they are no longer an influence in modern music or even popular i say this dear sirs. They are one of the only bands to exceed 250 million album sales , and as they only sold around half of these during their time as a band this proves that they have an ongoing and extensive fan base. Modern artists such as wolfmother, muse and White stripes take huge influence from them. So maybe they bear no relivence to your average music fan of today, but this is a time when the tedious likes of johny borrel and the feeling (with their koo koo koo crazy's)top the charts. Led Zeppelin created sophisticated, inovative and difficult music. In a time when the bar chord is the only chord bands know the existance of maybe Led Zeppelin aren't that influential, but to me thats a comment on modern day music. At the end of the day the artists that push the boundaries of modern music never deny the influence of Led Zeppelin. So therefore the fact that not many bands sound like Led is because they just can't pull it off. If you look a little deeper yousee that the band had a profound affect on the music industry. Thanks.........
:Led Zeppelin is one of the most influential rock bands ever; I find it odd that people would say that their influence wasn't present in the 80s.  On the contrary, for decades they were the most influential heavy metal band (a placethat Black Sabbath has since usurped).  Aerosmith, Van Halen, Whitesnake, Kingdom Come, Jane's Addiction, Nirvana, Soundgarden, and Stone Temple Pilots are just bands off the top of my head that were influenced by Zeppelin.  WesleyDodds 08:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence on other bands 

message: I believe the following sentence is slightly incorrect.
"The striking orange album cover of "Houses of the Holy" features images of nude children (girls) climbing "
According to 
Manning, Toby. "Broad Church", Q Led Zeppelin Special Edition, 2003.
The models for the cover were Stephan and Samantha Gates.
So they are not both girls. 
Inaccurate information from Manning is not entirely out of
the question, however.
I considered removing only the '(girls)' from this section of
the article.
But I believe it may be better to change the text to read, 
"male and female children" with a citation of 
the above article.
- Rockthing 13:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can do it, do it. I would, but I don't have the proper references... Remember be bold Billvoltage 12:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  :-) I did it. Still trying not to ruffle too many feathers as I've no  history of contributing to pages that many have put a lot of time and effort into. Thanks for the reminder/encouragement - Rockthing 14:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Houses Of The Holy 

message: Hi - I was hoping fans of LZ could create a list of books about the band. I'd like to read more, and know some of the best and notable histories in publication. Thanks. --Stbalbach 15:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: Why is Led Zeppelin described as a "satanistic" band?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.81.25.154 (talk) 20:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont care what anyone says, i've listened to stairway to heaven played backwards literally dozens of times and there are NO backwards lyrics. Also, Robert plant wrote most of the songs, not page. But most important of all, Crowley was NOT a satanist. he practiced magic but not satanic magic. Captanpluto123 03:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A "Satanistic" band??  

message: "Physical Graffiti also marked a change in Robert Plant's vocal sound. In 1974, after several years of near constant touring and all-out vocal performances, his vocal chords had been strained to a point where doctors told him to stop singing immediately or risk losing his voice altogether. By the end of Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy tour it was clear that he needed urgent medical attention, and he subsequently had several burst nodules removed from his vocal chords -- a simple procedure, but one that takes some time to heal. This is why some of the tracks on Physical Graffiti such as "Custard Pie" and "The Wanton Song" feature a slightly more raw voice than that exhibited on tracks which had been recorded well before his operation, such as "Night Flight" and "Down by the Seaside". After completely healing, his voice regained a tone similar to its original timbre, as can be heard on their next album, Presence."
I must say I've not read that before. Do we have any citations for this? --FrasierC 12:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed 

message: First is Page's guitar, the focal point of the band. He was a very active studio musician hired by a slew of artists, including the Kinks. That's his solo on, 'All Day and All of The Night'.
The Yardbirds had him on bass and rhythm guitar to Jeff Beck, himself a rock legend. The two knew each other for years, were very competitive in the 'Birds, and also when a young Zeppelin toured behind the Small Faces. Beck grudgingly considered Page better than himself.
Several versions of a true super band nearly emerged in the late 60s, with Humble Pie's Steve Marriott or Steve Winwood on vocals, Beck and Page on guitar, The Who's John Entwhistle on bass and Keith Moon on drums. John Paul Jones and Robert Plant also participated in some of these sessions, which record company contracts largely kept from happening. A similar situation with members of Yes was also dashed in the 70s. What these could have been ... Keith Moon actually gave Page the idea for the band's name, a name made with generous humor.
Page's layers of guitar work are a dominant feature on Led Zeppelin's early recording. Plant and Jones also used multiple tracks each. Hardly a true four-piece band, as some know them. Live, they were best on blues tunes they largely stole and put their names on.
Plant, whose vocal is an enormous influence even today, almost got booted. Still very young when he joined Zeppelin, Plant came off as feminine in his dress and mannerisms early on. He had been rejected by the band Slade, whose songs were later used by Quiet Riot in the 80's. Plant could improvise and harmonize with the guitar, a fact Page much enjoyed.
It was Jones, a studio guy who was a Page fan, who contacted Page to join, not the other way around. Jones played a number of instruments, helped arrange much of Zeppelin's material, and was often a co-producer, especially later on. 'In Thru The Out Door' is largely his album. He was the only band member not to become deranged by drug use, fame, or their behavioral byproducts.
Drugs, alcohol and other excesses doomed the band's promising record label, which had a considerable roster of talent. But the intelligent Jones came away unscathed. 
The most effected of all was Bonham, a very original heavy drummer whose contribution to the band's sound was irreplaceable.  A shouldery, jovial sort when he joined, Bonham came to be known as 'The Beast', an alcohol and drug-grogged monster of numerous social incidents and a penchant for violence. He died on his birthday at age 29, no one ever interceding to correct his spiraling path.
Truthfully, Bonham, along with road manager Richard Cole and head manager Peter Grant, were thugs who should have been sent to prison even in Zeppelin's early years. Drug trafficking and battery were commonplace on Zeppelin tours. Bonham was even an attempted rapist. As great as their music was, there is no defense for their behavior on tour, which sadly influenced many other upcoming bands to duplicate their excesses. Verification of these facts are numerous, including the well-known tome 'Hammer of The Gods'.
After only the Beatles, Zeppelin's only real all-time peer in rock music history is the Rolling Stones. It is impossible to imagine rock music without them. Their tours and recording inspired the creation of music equipment as well, much of it essential today.
Their music and excesses will remain the stuff of legend for decades to come. 
jerjets11@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerjets11 (talk • contribs) 18:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some key points on Led Zeppelin 

message: I believe that one of the well known 007 theme tunes is based on "kashmir" from the album "physical graffiti" -
If this is valid and has not already been added, could you add it, please?
P.S. the rumors about the satanic lyrics are true - I played stairway to heaven - the original - bachwards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarzEz (talk • contribs) 12:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: realy? me too. It sounded like someone talking backwards. not like someone saying satanic verses forwords. Captanpluto123 03:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting Facts: 

message: If we are ever going to get this article to GA status or higher, we really need to preplace these images with free ones, and cut back on the amout. there are so many images currently in the article, it is pushing the article length and size, possibly slowing down page loads.  scrumshus Talk to me 21:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, are we trying to get this to GA or FA? Just want to make sure for the League of Copyeditors. --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 19:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair Use Photos