Talk:The Chimes of Big Ben

message: Leading into the dialogue exchange quoted in this episode's Trivia section (which begins "I am definitely an optimist....") is the following:
Prisoner: Has it ever occurred to you that you're just as much a prisoner as I am?
McKern/#2: Ah, my dear chap, of course. I know too much. We're both lifers. I am definitely an optimist....
The irrefutable requirements of this--which as far as I can tell (and that is an EXTREMELY long distance) no one other than myself has picked up on--are highly significant. This is simply impossible to intepret any way other than that Leo McKern was at the time this scene was filmed expected to do at least several successive episodes as #2, if not the entire run. However, the official history of this programme has filming beginning with the first location shoot, the only one which qualifies as principal photography with several significant cast members and much recording of dialogue involved, in the grounds of the Hotel Portmeirion. Specifically, the company are said to have done exterior scenes for Arrival, Free for All, Dance of the Dead, and Checkmate,as well as Chimes.... After this, the cast and crew did these episodes' interiors in MGM's Borehamwood, England studios, and continued there for the rest of the run. Furthermore, those aforementioned cast members include Guy Doleman (albeit seen in one single location shot, but that's exactly what it is), Eric Portman, and Mary Morris, #2s all (one could also include Rachel Herbert, given the climactic twist to Free...). The real kicker here is that VERY little of Chimes... was filmed in Wales specifically for it (as opposed to several standard stock shots of walking people, moving taxis, and flying helicopters); certainly the quoted scene we started with is sound stage work (scenes outside of the Exhibition Hall were made at a location much closer at hand, which was also used for the outside of the Recreation Hall and the helicopter pad in The Schizoid Man, as well as the butcher's, the baker's and the candlestick maker's in The Girl Who Was Death, and the Western town in Living in Harmony). Accepting the official history at face value, we are asked to believe that a scene with The Prisoner and McKern's #2 agreeing that the latter is never leaving The Village was filmed with footage of at least THREE other #2s already in the proverbial can! I do not see how this is possible, and say that the studio work for Chimes... MUST have been shot BEFORE that first trip to Wales, probably as a pilot (McGoohan would have talked Lew Grade through a screening of a very rough cut, in this scenario). The only part of the above that is speculation rather than facts or deduction from said facts is the idea that it was a pilot, but I see no plausible alternative interpretation there. So what is the verdict about some mention of this on the page itself? Ted Watson 19:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As regards Wikipedia, sorry, but this is original research.  As you yourself note, no one else has proposed or "picked up on" this theory.  On the subject of the theory itself...  You say it's "simply impossible to interpret" McKern's dialogue as meaning anything than that he will be in the Village for the long haul, if not for life.  Yet we know that there is much more to the organization that runs The Village than solely The Village itself.  When McKern's #2 acknowledges that he too is a prisoner, there's no reason to think he must be talking about being a prisoner of the place, rather than the organization. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A prisoner of the "organization" rather than of the "place" is an interesting theory, and I will give it serious consideration, but at first glance there seems to me to be a difference between the subjective perspective of trying to make sense of the conversation within story context after the event, and the objective perspective of trying to make sense out of it in terms of what the creative team was doing and could reasonably be suggested to have been thinking at the time of filming. Also, remember the dichotomy between the official production history which has this as a "major Portmeirion episode" and the irrefutable fact that it actually has less footage shot FOR IT there than Hammer Into Anvil or It's Your Funeral. Oh, yes, I do grant the point of your "original research" objection. I almost forgot that. Sorry. Ted Watson 22:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Relevant to the above, I just noticed a Trivia note on this page, which flatly states that this episode WAS the pilot. A check of "History" shows that one Jason Palpatine revised the note to state that Chimes rather than Arrival was the pilot (this is  further indicated to be a minor edit, but I certainly wouldn't have checked that if I had done it myself). Glad to see that somebody agreed with my logic. Thanks, Jason. Ted Watson 18:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can see, NONE of the location footage featuring the principal cast was shot in Portmeirion. The exterior of the hall certainly isn't a Portmeirion building. Lee M 17:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dialogue

message: Interestingly, Fotheringay is not listed in the additional cast list, even though he has a speaking part and is referred to by The Prisoner.  I have inserted his character's name and the actor who portrays him Richard Wattis.81.157.131.14 (talk) 10:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omission of character from cast list 

message: I have watched this episode recently and I fail to see at which point McGoohan places his hand over the edge of the wooden divider in the packing case!  Obviously the packing case is open at the end facing the camera to facilitate the filming of the two occupants inside the packing case - and also to provide light to enable The Prisoner to read the time on his watch!  Interestingly, when the two occupants are released from the packing case, The Prisoner appears in the left-hand compartment and Nadia in the right-hand side (both in standing positions), whereas whilst they were being placed in the case - and whilst being filmed inside the case - they were the opposite way round! The camera angle of the two of them inside the packing case whilst being transported (filmed from the top end) clearly shows The Prisoner in the left-hand compartment and Nadia in the right (as seen on screen).  When converted to an upright position these should be reversed, with The Prisoner standing upright on the right and Nadia on the left. When filmed standing upright The Prisoner is on the left-hand side and Nadia is on the right!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.131.14 (talk) 10:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  McGoohan's hand over edge of the wooden divider? 

message: Drake (the Prisoner) had built himself a primitive construction which would have given him a rough idea of where he is according to the stars, so he could have narrowed it down to Wales, as in part of Britain. Yet he readily accepts that he is in Poland, and has a long transport back to Britain. He defeats the bad guys in the end by using the watch he was given, on European time he believes, matching the time of the recording of Big Ben (striking). But knowing he was in Wales, and the man who gave him it being in Wales, the watch would have been set to British time, so matching the real Big Ben and the recording, so no anomaly (other than the lie about Poland).(80.31.145.157 (talk) 17:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your comment is a bit confusing, but (apart from the fact that Number Six may or may not be Drake) I think your points are addressed in WP's article on The Village.  Although the real-life Portmeirion is in Wales, the programme never makes it clear that the fictional Village is supposed to be located there. The scene where Number Six uses the primitive astronomical instrument (the triquetrum) appears only in the rough cut of The Chimes of Big Ben and was deleted from the final cut, presumably because it raised too many awkward questions. (Would the Village really have allowed Number Six to construct such a device in the first place?) --Muzilon (talk) 08:03, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: A mistake?

message: Just a thought, but if the office Number Six is brought to includes his old boss and staff, but turns out to be in The Village, doesn't that mean that his boss / staff are in on the conspiracy? That they work for The Village, or The Village works for them? IE the Village is on "our" side, the Brits, not the Russians (or Martians or whomever else)?
Since that was supposed to be a mystery all the way through, right? Which side had kidnapped him. 
Haven't seen the episode recently enough to remember, but has this point ever been answered? The staff weren't all cardboard cutouts or anything?
188.29.164.28 (talk) 03:43, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly indicates that at least some of his former colleagues were "in" on the conspiracy, yes. The same thing is implied by the Many Happy Returns episode. --Muzilon (talk) 23:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which side of the curtain 

message: The article should include a mention of the alternative version of this episode which has different theme music and the "triquetrum" scene mentioned above. I don't have any "reliable sources" at my fingertips, but I'm sure another editor will. Muzilon (talk) 01:21, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I just played it from the DVD set tonight, and the music is entirely different.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 03:02, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative edit