Talk:Joseph Goebbels/Archive 1

message: I protected this page, because two screens' worth of reverting is getting ridiculous.  I frankly don't care all that much which version is instilled, but the edit war needs to stop, and something needs to be decided more calmly. --Delirium 04:54, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
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On Goebbels the situation appears to be: The name on his birth certificate was Joseph Göbbels. Before 1933 he used the Joseph spelling, but since Josef is a much more common German form, it was widely used by other people. From 1933 the official spelling of his name was Josef, presumably because it was "more Germanic." That is why the streets were called Dr Josef Goebbels Strasse Lirath Q. Pynnor Adam Carr
No. That is bullshit. Here are the facts--The name on his birth certificate was Joseph Göbbels. He was married to Magda as Joseph. For evidence of this (I can't believe I am quoting this as a source, but ...) David Irving in his book, Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich, has a picture of the thank you notes sent out. They are signed "Joseph und Magda Goebbels." That was in 1931. Later, after Hitler came to power, after Germany invaded Poland, etc. in 1940, Goebbels published his memoirs, entitled Vom Kaiserhof zur Reichskanzlei. (These were translated into English by Kurt Fiedler in 1979 as My Part in Germany's Fight.) In the preface, after dedicating the book to the Party and the S.A., Goebbels signed his name. His signature is reproduced there. In one more minute you will have a scan of the signature. Notice how he spells Joseph in 1940. Unless he misspelled his own name, that would be the correct spelling of his name, and the name he used as Reichsminister. Danny 21:51, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Was the doctorate an honorary title? If not, what field was Goebbels educated in? - knoodelhed 16:04, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: not a mere honorary title. He has studied philosophy. That is about all I know. Andries 17:40, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Goebbels achieved a PhD from Heidelburg in 1921 at the age of twenty-four. He had also studied at the Universities of Bonn, Frieburg, Wuerzburg, Köln, Frankfurt, München and Berlin.Anthony.bradbury 20:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The "Dr."

message: the german page for this article seems to have a very comprehensive amount of information, is there anyone out there available to translate and pull some of this data for the english version?
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Sorry I do not think he was a Chancellor because if Bush (or any other President) would make a testament: if i die my son/daughter/wife or whatever becomes the next President, do you think it would be valid?
:The United States is thankfully not (currently) a fascist dictatorship. You'd probably want to compare with something like North Korea.--Fangz 09:59, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the USA is far away from that, my fault, i hope you are not offended by my unclarity. i just wanted to say that probably hitler had not the formal right (by law) to chose a successor (with/by his last will). Materially (word?sp?) of course he could make what he wanted. plus in opposition to Dönitz goebbels didnt want that position however that doesnt matter because Dönitz was also choosen by hitlers last will and therefore were either both of them illegal or legal. I wonder if they were from the legal side (formel) the successor or only by the material side (by fact/deeds) and if they where only by deeds (materially), is it really worth to mention such war-criminals (especially goebbels)?
Hitler unarguably had, by the law in the Third Reich at the time, the right to nominate his successor because at that time and in that place the law was by definition exactly whatever Hitler said it was. Anthony.bradbury 20:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  german article page is far more comprehensive 

message: We all know JG was a lying, club-footed syncophant and frustrated novelist who personally assisted in the promotion of a genocidal regime and then at best stood by while his distraught wife murdered their kids rather than let them fall prey to the tender mercies of the Red Army. However, this is an encyclopedia, and his character must be conveyed in a NPoV manner. The new user who tacked on the rambling section (pasted below) likely meant well, and there is helpful information here which I will integrate into the article when time allows. Wyss 12:20, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: PoV rant

message: (copyright violation from http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/goebbels.html removed by Melchoir 21:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mini Biography & Timeline of Joseph Goebbels

message: I've read Goebbel's diaries, and they're interesting but dull. His love for his children is clear, but the diaries give no reason or observation that might excuse the family's bunker horror. Is there an account that properly addresses the event?--shtove 03:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it speak for itself? It seems like something members of a religious cult would do - removing themselves from an irredeemable world. Once it became clear that Hitler, the messiah, had failed in his mission, then everything had to go - but go where, since they had no concept of God?--shtove 15:23, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time of the family-suicide, the allied forces were approaching very fast. Hitler already recognized that he was not going to win the war, and so did Goebbels. Goebbels was very capable of adding 2 and 2, he knew that if he wouldn't commit suicide, he would surely be imprisoned. Committing suicide might sounds favourable when the only other option at hand is being captured by enemy forces. Both moral-ethic (Like Japanese soldiers, to die rather than to fall into enemy hands) and perhaps also physical (having to live years and prison, before getting the death punishment). I'm just guessing that he loved his wife and children so much, that for the reasons stated above, he didn't want them to fall into the hands of the Allies. -- SoothingR(pour) 16:03, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text: But wasn't it the wife's choice as well? I suspect it was more than morals or ethics that lay behind the choice - some greater vision.--shtove 21:35, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure that it was his wife's choice as well, but that doesn't change anything about the reasons for the massacre -- SoothingR(pour) 15:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The reasons you give are understandable for JG himself, but not for his wife and not when it came to their children. It could be said that JG was an almighty ego and therefore if HE was to go everything had to go with him, family and all; but his wife was well aware of his infidelities, and I don't think she would have sacrificed for him - not to that extent. It has to be something more than fear of dishonour or punishment. And my original question: Is there an account that properly addresses the event? And why is the font so small?--shtove 00:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dull diaries 

message: Strong identification with national socialism could and did have some similarites to cultish or religious behaviour among some. The evidence indicates Magda took the stronger role in killing her kids, apparently convincing herself to some degree they would be re-incarnated. Goebbels seems to have lost his grip and was half-mad during his day as chancellor of Germany. Finally, there were very real concerns the little girls would be mistreated- raped and so on. Thousands their age were, in fact. Most of the female occupants of the bunker were too. Wyss 00:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that. Know of any account that addresses the particular point?--shtove 17:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why 

message: About to reinstate an earier edit which was reverted on the grounds that "IMO WW2 Allied propaganda doesn't qualify as "pop" culture".  I contend that it does qualify, because the song caught on considerably beyond the initial usage, see 
Hitler has only got one ball#Origin of the song for details (paragraph beginning "the song has frequently been seen and heard").  TerraGreen 23:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No balls 

message: I am reverting the categorisation of Roman Catholic. While it is true he was born into a Catholic family, I believe we need evidence that he continued to practice later in life before that category can be legitimately applied. If anyone can supply this evidence I'll be happy to put it back. DJ Clayworth 18:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard of this rumour and suspect it's only a conflation with his wife Magda's personal history. Her mother Auguste may have married Jewish hotel and restaurant worker Max Friedländer (who later died at the Buchenwald concentration camp), moving with him to Brussels where they all lived until the outbreak of World War I when Germans were forced to leave and the family spent time in a refugee camp in East Prussia. In effect Friedländer was Magda's stepfather and she was known as Magda Friedländer until she legally changed her name to Magda Rietschel (her presumed biological father's name) shortly before she married Max Quandt, her first husband, in 1921 since Jewish names were a social liability in Germany during the early part of the 20th century. Wyss 21:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic

message: The photo of his body as discovered by the Soviets was removed apparently without any debate on this page.  Maybe there should be debate over whether it should be put back? rvinall 08:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: body photo

message: I removed the mention of the umlauted spelling Göbbels from the page.  In all the accounts I've read about Nazi Germany and WWII, I've never seen this spelling ever, even in texts which describe Goebbels and Hermann Göring in the same paragraph.  Further, the German article (presumably not shy of using umlauts) has no instances of "Göbbels".  The only hits I could find for Göbbels was a bunch of 
other people with the same name (I don't blame them: I if had that last name I'd spell it differently than Goebbels too) so I think we needn't mention it. --Saforrest 06:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name spelling 

message: Goebbels has been widely reported, both during the Nazi era and afterwards, as having a club foot. This is not so. At the age of seven he suffered from osteomyelitis - an infection of the bone marrow - of the left femur. Surgery was only partly successful, and he was left with a left leg rather shorter and slightly weaker than the right. This produced an undisguisable limp. 
See 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' by William Shirer, a contemporary witness.
I have not yet changed the article, but will do so in a few days unless I reap a storm of protest. Anthony.bradbury 21:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Club foot 

message: As far as I can see, there isn't any reference to the films he made. Surely these were some of the most important propaganda works of the 3rd Reich?
::Don't know who added the above comment, but checked IMDB.com and they say he influenced lots of the propaganda films and appeared in several, but he seems to have been the moving force behind their most expensive Nazi era film, Kolberg, and IMDB says he was the uncredited Executive Producer and a writer, so I added that info. Interestingly, he actually wasted scarce resources and pulled troops off the battlefield to film the battle scene of the Napoleanic era film, probably helping thereby to shorten the war, since there were few theaters left to show it when it was released around January 1945, so it did not produce the great outpouring of patriotic feeling he hoped for.Edison 22:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film 

message: 'The Goebbels technique, also known as argumentum ad nauseam, is the name given to a policy of repeating a point until it is taken to be the truth (see Big Lie). For example, when Goebbels took ownership of the Der Angriff (The Assault) newspaper, he attacked Berlin Police President Bernhard Weiss, calling him "Isidor" Weiss. To German ears, Isidor at the time was a name with strong Jewish connotations. Eventually the public believed Isidor was Weiss' real given name and he became a figure of ridicule.[citation needed]'
No offense, but how can this article accuse Goebbels of inventing the 'Big Lie' technique, back itself up with 'evidence' that lacks citation, and to top it all off reference another Wikipedia article (The Big Lie) which basically dismisses the attribution of the Big Lie technique to Goebbels as a dirty rumor? Is this not in itself a 'Big Lie'? o.0; --GrimgerdeNrVIII 19:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argumentum ad nauseum, 'Big Lie,' etc... 

message: Hello,
I have been asking this on the talk page of many biographies on Wikipedia : what languages did Joseph Goebbels speak?  A propaganda minister could benefit from the knowledge of another language, but on the other hand there wasn't really an international language back then.  I remember seeing footage of him at a conference, where he was interviewed by a British reporter and needed a translator (they were talking about peaceful coexistence or something).
Evilbu 13:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What languages did he speak? 

message: The point about Dr. Berhard Weiss is wrong; the public did not come to believe his real name to be Isidor, and thus a figure of ridicule.  He made himself such a figure by his overreactions to Goebbels' provocations.  Everytime the name 'Isidor' was used in Der Angriff Dr Weiss took Goebbels to court, and was invariably awarded damages and costs.  On one occasion the paper's cartoonist, Moljnir, put Weiss' face on the drawing of a donkey, naming his creation as 'Isidor'.  Once again Goebbels was taken to court, and once again was found liable.  The following day the headline appeared in Der Angriff-"Judge Agrees-Isidor does Look Like a Donkey!"  
The great and obvious gap in this whole article is that it says nothing about Goebbels' time as Gauleiter of Berlin-a post he occupied from November 1926 until his death-which saw some remarkable events in the history of National Socialism, including the SA revolt of 1931 and the great street battles with the Communists.
White Guard 05:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berhard Weiss 

message: Can anyone recommend a biography other than Irving's? I am reluctant to put money in Irving's pocket, and he can no longer be cited as a reliable source, but a look at Amazon's listings suggests that his is still the best biography to be had. Adam 13:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Biography

message: There is a statement in the article which reads: He is credited by historians with developing the techniques of modern communications and propaganda. I find this to be very interesting; could the author of the statement incorporate specific examples, as well as sources for this statement, into the article? 199.29.6.2 16:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Goebbels & modern propaganda techniques

message: I am going to write a new Goebbels article to replace this very poor one as soon as I find a reputable biography (ie, not David Irving) to work from. I suggest people not waste their time with minor fixes of this article as these will be lost when I replace it. Adam 08:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Warning

message: From the article:  Today there are surviving descendants in Ravenna Michigan.  Just whose descendants exactly?  Didn't all his children die in the Führerbunker? Edeans 20:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Michigan relations

message: I just removed the "He also banged alot of ass all night long till the break of dawn" some idiot had added at the end of Early Life section. Some people are worse than children. Kontorotsui 00:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism removed

message: According to the latest version of this article David Irving is said to have claimed he had been the first to find Goebbels diaries in the Moscow archives.
Although I do not possess a "real" copy of the book, but rather the online version I downloaded from Mr.Irving's website, according to what I can read, Irving does not claim to have been the first to find the diaries and thanks Dr. Elke for having done so.He claims to have been the first to see the microfilm, that's all. This passage can be found on page 5/939 of the .PDF version  of the book which I presume can be downloaded from Irving's website.
So, which one is correct? Is perhaps the version I own too recent? Did Mr.Irving 'delete' this sordid afair from the book he made available for free online?
Thank you very much for your cooperation.Ishikawa Minoru 00:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Diaries

message: Listen, unless someone has irrefutable proof (a statement, a diary entry, a speech, etc.) that Goebbels created the 'Big Lie,' then I'm going to continue deleting it. Wikipedia's own article regarding the Big Lie contradicts the Joseph Goebbels article's attribution of the technique to Goebbels and, more importantly, CITES ITSELF. Also, simply because someone was mentioned in one of Goebbels' diary entries doesn't make them relevant enough to Goebbels to merit an inclusion in this article's 'see also' section.  --Grimgerde 18:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm quite surprised (as this is so often attributed to Goebbels), but Encyclopaedia Brittancia, 15th Edition (1974) seems to support your position. It says, "Contrary to common belief, Goebbels did not at that time falsify the facts of the situation. On the contrary, the main thrust of his propaganda... was to continually raise hopes by citing historical parallels and making other comparisons, by conjuring up allegedly immutable laws of history, or even ... by refering to some secret miracle weapons". Is this just an urban legend? A self-referential "Big Lie"? How interesting. I will continue to research this. --Bill Huston  (talk) 19:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: done! --Bill Huston  (talk) 03:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Hi Wahkeenah, this might make more sense if you read higher up on this page to the prior discussion. Also, look at the edit history to see what Grimgerde recently deleted. Web search on "Goebbles big lie" and see what comes up. Basically it's this: A quote is often attributed to Goebbels, something like "tell a lie often enough and loud enough and people will accept it as truth". It is beginning to look to me like this is itself a "big lie", as there is now a question in my mind whether Goebbels said this at all. Grimgerde raised question, and my Brittanica continues to cast doubt. If anyone knows an original source for this, please post it.  --Bill Huston  (talk) 03:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'The Big Lie,' Part II 

message: So User:Grimgerde, why was this deleted? Article appears to have much info about Goebbles. I reverted. --Bill Huston  (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  deletion of link to [[Herschel Grynszpan]] article