Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 35

message: I created navigation box for Arthur Sullivan's operas including his work with others (German, Chorley and Gilbert). But I was told to remove it from all Sullivan/Gilbert articles. But, how about the navigtaion box list itself, shall I remove all S&G collaboration works too? - Jay 05:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello.  Jay did a nice job with the Sullivan box, but he did not discuss it with us at the G&S project (WP:G&S) before placing it on the articles.  The G&S project already had a navigation template on all the Gilbert and Sullivan opera articles.  I think it is OK for Jay to put the navigation box on all of Sullivan's Non-Gilbert operas, but the project had already agreed on a format for the Gilbert opera articles.  Thanks, and best regards, -- Ssilvers 06:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but my question is, shall I remove the G&S opera list from the navigation box itself? Even though we have removed the nav box from G&S works, but the link is still working from Sullivan's operas with others. (Sorry for the nav box, I had no idea about G&S project existed in the first place) -  Jay 06:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arthur Sullivan navigation box

message: His photo in the article (also is use for his navigation box) has been deleted, I am not sure when or why. Can someone please restore it? Thanks. - Jay 01:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. It was deleted because there was a version on Commons, but the filenames were very slightly different so it didn't show. I've fixed it. Mak (talk) 01:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Jacques Offenbach]] photo

message: Following Jay's attempts to put the Mozart Operas navigational box back where it's been sitting quite happily for some time in The Magic Flute, I have been engaging in a dialogue with User:Opus33 under the above heading on the opera's Talk page.  Any thoughts, either here or there, anyone? --GuillaumeTell 21:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: May I know what is the different between that article and others, any special about it? Even before I came, the infoboxes in other articles have been placed at the top right. I prefer if we could make things standardize in here. It is good for readers and looks good to us to see all our articles are using the same format, from the intro, history, arias, etc. And that is what I am trying to do. And I seriously don’t understand why can’t we do it (the standardization) and what so unhappy about it? Thanks, this is just my opinion. - Jay 01:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Additional: We do have the standard format in our main page (Project opera), basically that is what I followed unless the guidelines in there are just “some empty talk” instead of the way of implementation. I deleted photos (for eg, the one I took from Carmen) because I tried to follow the “guideline” given but if other authors can do as what they prefer, I been thinking to do article my own way. That doesn’t sound good does it? I myself don’t feel good writing this but I just want to know, what is the point having the “Guideline formats” if any of us can do as what we and our “circle of friends” like it? I have no intention to hurt anyone but I am curious to know. Enlighten me please. Thanks again. - Jay 01:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is that, as you know, anyone can edit any article.  People who have signed up here will try to follow the guidelines, but there are a lot of other editors who haven't joined the project (some may not know about it) but nevertheless create and edit opera-related articles.  We can't stop them - and they often add useful material, so we shouldn't want to stop them - but one has to be relaxed about it and point out that there are virtues in consistency and consensus. --GuillaumeTell 10:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:The_Magic_Flute#The_Mozart_opera_list_infobox]] 

message: We don't use the Opera banner for Gilbert and Sullivan category talk pages. Now that the Richard Wagner Project has a banner I'm assuming - unless there  is something I haven't considered - that the same system will apply. -- Kleinzach 10:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Descendant project banners

message: The article on Europa Riconosciuta is enjoying a spot on the wikipedia main page under the 'did you know?' section. Check it out!Nrswanson 00:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's always good to have stuff at Wikipedia:Did you know. Makes for good advertisement of our hard work :) Besides, it's gratifying. Cheers, Moreschi  Talk 12:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On the Front Page!

message: I just thought it would be good to make a note on Beverly Sills' passing on the page. She was not only a wonderful opera singer and advocate for opera but a wonderful person. I had the privledge of getting to meet her about three years ago through a mutual friend and I was amazed at not only her incredible mind and talent but also her genuine love for people. She will be missed. If you have never had the opportunity to hear her sing, find a recording somewhere. It's worth it!Nrswanson 10:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sills: A Great Woman Leaves Us...

message: Should La Cenerentola be lower case (in Rossini's infobox)? It's a nickname rather than a proper name, like La traviata.
And La Gioconda, too.
-- Operalalatalk 01:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Grove has capital C and capital G, which implies that nicknames are capitalised in Italian.  La traviata isn't a nickname - it means "the woman who strayed" or some such - (and Grove doesn't capitalise it).--GuillaumeTell 08:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  La Cenerentola, La Gioconda 

message: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_July_3#Category:Romantischen_Opern Johnbod 22:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created (on the hoof) an article for Romantische Oper, linked it from the cat and added it to the genres navbox.  Everyone should feel free to amend, slash, burn, what-have-you. --GuillaumeTell 00:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Once again... Romantischen Opern

message: A category :Category:Operas by Jacques Halévy has been created, currently containing only La juive.
1) I would like to move a rename to :Category:Operas by Fromental Halévy, and would appreciate opinions before I do so.
2) I would like to suggest his operas for a makeover some month in the near future: I would say that 'La reine de Chypre' (admired by Wagner), 'Henri VI' and 'L'Eclair' certainly deserve at least brief articles, and maybe also 'Le juif errant'.--Smerus 18:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In answer to #1, what seems to have happened is that the category was created (2 June 2005) when the Halévy article was called Jacques Halévy.  A month later (1 July 2005), the article was renamed, but no-one did anything about the category.  Anyway, a speedy rename looks desirable. --GuillaumeTell 20:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Point 2? You could put him up for Composer of the Month, but we seem to be booked up well in advance there (I think Cavalli is the composer for October). --Folantin 19:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Halévy

message: I've just put a  banner on this. The principle author, Buondelmonte, has pasted his own article on Sly from his web site. It's largely accurate (I did make one correction so far) and is well written as an essay, but the tone is not encyclopedic and it is completely devoid of references. It also lacks the standard formatting for sub-sections, apart from 'Performance history', and even there some material more pertinent to that section is appears elsewhere in the article as an aside. I have quite a bit of material about this opera, and actually saw its performance in Turin in October 2000. I'm inclined to fix this up and re-structure it.  But I would want to leave the music analysis as it is (perhaps copy-editing some of the 'personal opinion' phrasing). Is it OK to reference Tom Kaufman's web page? And does some note need to be made that the material has been used verbatim with his permission?  Best, Voceditenore 11:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NOR isn't keen on original research that has only been published on a website, whether or not the article is written by the website's owner, but WP:V says "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", which I think would apply to TK.   Articles by Buondelmonte have always needed a lot of wikification, as Kleinzach and others will testify, but I think that most (all?) of us welcome his involvement.  So, yes, reference his site and also contact him and officially ask for his permission, otherwise someone sooner or later will mark this as a copyvio. --GuillaumeTell 15:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, either copy permissions (at) wikimedia dot org or forward it to them when you get the clarification of his license - try to get him to say explicitly that he agrees to license it under the GFDL, see Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials#Granting us permission to copy material already on line for some guidance. Mak (talk) 16:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Query re ''[[Sly (opera)|Sly]]''

message: Thanks for the act 5 synopsis and some explanation ,it clears the puzzle in my head about the 5 and 4 act; and “ The Met-1983  3 act Don Carlo – Levine-Domingo ”. 
But you might want to look/check at the statement  It has been telecast at least once by the Metropolitan Opera, with James Levine conducting and Plácido Domingo as Don Carlos under the heading Subsequent performance history. It is because the statement is just right after Finally, stagings and recordings of the original five-act French version of the opera have become more frequent.
It makes it sound like Domingo-Levine-The Met was in 5 act ( French). The Met-Levine-Domingo is in Italian, cut short to 3 act (extend the scenes) under title “Dan Carlo”. 
Domingo first sang “Don Carlos” (French) in 1967 in Vienna (as confirmed in his official website); and then in 1971~72 season at the Met as “Don Carlo” (Italian) – this info is from The Met “Don Carlo” history in the DVD about The Met “Don Carlos/Don Carlo” performances from the premiere on 23 December 1920 until 1992.  I sure the Met has done 5 act in French before but from the history, I don’t see Domingo-Levine have unless if they performed it after 1992.  If anybody have any info about this, feel free to share. - Jay 18:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Jay - I've been devoting my attentions to the synopsis, but still have three acts of it to expand.  There certainly ought to be a Recordings/CDs/DVDs section, and a better Performance History, but they come later. --GuillaumeTell 00:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks to [[User:GuillaumeTell|GuillaumeTell]] for [[Don Carlos]] article

message: Someone just put all the G&S opera articles into this category without discussion.  Recently, we all agreed to categorize them under English comic operas.  I don't think they should they ALSO be under English-language operettas, and I have removed them from the cat., but I added other operettas to the category.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 00:14, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This category was started by User:Piniricc65 in May. I wasn't aware it existed. Is it useful? The cat now has Herbert (7 items), Romberg (3), Friml (2), Bernstein (1), Sousa (1) and Coward (1) - so all American except the Coward. -- Kleinzach 09:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Er.... Are we keeping the cat or not?  Would someone comment on my queston above (whether Happiest Girl is an operetta)?  What about Song of Norway?  Thanks for any advice.  -- Ssilvers 04:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not my field - but I wonder if we should consider changing :Category:English-language operettas to :Category:American operettas. Is this reasonable? I am not sure why you are asking about The Happiest Girl in the World as no-one seems to be claiming it as an operetta. Am I missing something? Likewise Song of Norway. Borrowing some classical music doesn't make a musical into an operetta, does it? -- Kleinzach 06:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think they're all going to be American (in fact, at least two are not); I am guessing that you Brits have been remiss in adding the post-WWII British operettas into the Cat.  :)   --Also, I bet there are some from South Africa, Australia, Canada, etc.  I guess we should leave the category alone for a few months and re-evaluate after a real effort to think about whether there are more English-language operettas after 1907.  As to your question above, if you take operetta music and write a new book, is it an operetta?: I would think probably yes.... -- Ssilvers 06:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Respect for the composer alone would suggest the reverse. Would we want to call every work that quoted the music of Carmen an opera? Borrowing classical music is an industry. -- Kleinzach 07:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I thought we had caught all the operettas and put them into :Category:Operas. If not perhaps you can tell me how to track them down? In theory, operettas are just another genre of opera so they are treated like the others, although obviously there are still lots of anomalies. Re your last question, IMO we should follow the designation of the creator so if he/she says it's an operetta/musical we should go with that, unless we have a very good reason to do otherwise. -- Kleinzach 11:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:English-language operettas]]

message: Here are some ideas/previous suggestions for the October composer(s) of the month:
*Francesco Cavalli (1602-1676) and ?
*Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868)
*Kurt Weill (1900-1950) and Ernst Krenek (1900-1991)
*Early German composers and the development of Singspiele: Johann Adam Hiller (1728-1804), Anton Schweitzer (1735 - 1787), Johann André (1741-1799), Christian Gottlob Neefe (1748-1798), Johann Friedrich Reichardt (1752-1814), Peter Winter (1754-1825) 
*Gaspare Spontini (1774-1851) and Luigi Cherubini (1760-1842), 
Any other suggestions as always welcome! -- Kleinzach 00:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine but is there enough of him? The opera corpus has four works - two stubs. Does he need a companion(s)? -- Kleinzach 07:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He wrote 32 operas, of which 28 survive. So the opera corpus section on him needs expanding. I'll try to do it at some point in the next few days. --Folantin 07:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Obviously we need (article) viable titles but if there are a lot of them all the better. -- Kleinzach 07:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: OK. I have put Cavalli up (above). -- Kleinzach 23:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That's right. We tend to concentrate on areas of weak coverage (based on The opera corpus), turing red links into blue. We try to put up viable stubs based on Grove, Viking and Oxford and hope that editors will develop them, adding synopses, discussions about the music, pictures, recordings sections etc. At the moment we have 1,000+ opera title articles compared to 1,800+ in Grove. -- Kleinzach 09:15, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: October Composer of the Month