Talk:Names of God in Judaism

message: Judging by the sources stated at Elah, that name should be included on this page. I know practically no Hebrew and so cannot judge whether it should be included under El or Elohim, or as a separate section. Please would someone merge the info here. The entry at that page should then be linked to sourced information here, and the refs removed since that is a disambiguation page. - Fayenatic (talk) 17:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elah 

message: Speaking of Zion as a Goddess, the bride of Christ Joseph:
:"related who  a Goddess from out besides mine to Yahweh? and who is a refuge but my Elohey ours?" 
:Psalm 18:31  (18:32) כי מי אלוה מבלעדי יהוה ומי צור זולתי אלהינו׃ 
Eloah is feminine, Goddess, but both the Article misquotes the number of Usages, used 59 Times in the Westminster Leningrad Codex, but the Aramaic Targums   and Greek LXX and Latin Vulgate, made from the Aramaic, all use Masculine Nouns in their mistranslations, and
:Deuteronomy 32:15 וישמן ישרון ויבעט שמנת עבית כשית ויטש אלוה עשהו וינבל צור ישעתו׃
:2 Chronicles 32:15 ועתה אל־ישיא אתכם חזקיהו ואל־יסית אתכם כזאת ואל־תאמינו לו כי־לא יוכל כל־אלוה כל־גוי וממלכה להציל עמו מידי ומיד אבותי אף כי א‍להיכם לא־יצילו אתכם מידי׃
:Nehemiah 9:17 וימאנו לשמע ולא־זכרו נפלאתיך אשר עשית עמהם ויקשו את־ערפם ויתנו־ראש לשוב לעבדתם במרים ואתה אלוה סליחות חנון ורחום ארך־אפים ורב־ וחסד כ (חסד  ק) ולא עזבתם׃
:[Other untranslated Hebrew examples commented out below:]
2001:558:6014:31:1174:DC89:7267:6449 (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: To preserve readability, I've commented out most of the very long list of untranslated Hebrew above. It's still available by clicking "edit section". — LlywelynII 01:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eloah 

message: I want to clarify exactly why I have felt it so important to mark two sections of this section as needing citation. In the first instance the article makes the strong claim that "usually" such and such but without any real grounds for saying this. Given the fact that there are some significant theological differences between [religious] traditions [...] over this issue it becomes important for NPOV to be sure of what we are saying and why. In the second instances the very strong statement says that "better renderings might be" without saying who considers them better or why. In the interests of accuracy, good citation and NPOV I have flagged these for editorial action. --Lord Matt (talk) 08:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh citation requests 

message: The vowels only respresent the hebrew name of HaShem when read backwards, *as if it were in hebrew* I A O A.
:Ih-Ah-Oh-(Omitted - Hebrew is a phonetic language, regardless of how it is spelled/Transliterated in English, the phonetic must remain constant and perpetual, this is the nature of the Pheonician/Hebrew language - cross referrence Sefer Yetzirah)
This should be clarified in the main article. 
As the vowel order in the english  - Adonai - To not represent the vowels of Adonai, moreover, the Nikkud depicted in the Double Yiddish Yod  - which is spoken as Adonai - does not actually translate to *adonai* the word depicted in the article (similar to the man named Adoni-ah (written as Aleph,Dalet,Nun,Yod,Heh,Vav) in I Kings(which is not represented by the Yiddish double yod (with Nikkud - spoken "Adonai"). 
The name: ADONAI - meaning Lord differs from that represented in text containing the prayers/invocations of HaShem(Heh, Shin-Mem sofit). So this is very confusing as labled in the main article, as Adonai is (Alev, Dalet, Nun, Yod), each of those containing their own Nikkud, and as such the name "Aleph,Dalet,Nun,Yod" bears little resemblence to the actual name of God, other than being attributed by definition "Lord".
When the Adonai referred to that is HaShem (again two words, as stated above, and should be represented to accord as such in English Transliteration for clarities sake as Two seperate words, if not divided by more than a capital letter.) HaShem appropriate when referred to as Adonai, again is represented in Hebrew by the Yiddish Double Yod, with appropriate nikkud for the two vowels (after Yod, and after Waw/Vav - the Heh/Ha in itself is fairly well self evident in prononciation.
This should be clarified by a more one with greater patience and understanding than I. [Special:Contributions/65.102.21.197|65.102.21.197]] (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Adonai"(אֲדוֹנָי) translates into the English as "lord of me" i.e. "my lord", which derives from the word "Adon"(אָדוֹן), meaning "lord".AurumSpiral1235813 (talk) 21:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  *Adonai* 

message: Is is YHVH or YHWH?  It appears with both spellings in the first section without discussion of the difference - this should be clarified. Hugetim (talk) 18:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops, I see the discussion now. I will standardize the use of YHVH throughout the appropriate sections since that seems to be the predominant version. Hugetim (talk) 18:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary, the Biblical Hebrew page lists the relevant letter as 'waw,' so I'm going with W instead of V (which seems to be the modern way to pronounce the letter).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugetim (talk • contribs) 18:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Posterity; the letter as VAV is a modern re-interpretation, however in biblical times the letter was a WAW. The people who most commonly use the tetragammaton in any context outside of strictly written work are 'hebrew-israelites' and 'messianic jews', both organizations being compromised in their education due to strong preconceived biases and general ignorance due to the extreme lack of scholarly research, and so they use the phonetic 'YHWH' because that is how the name would have been used by the kohen gadol during the temple era and before, if the name was even in use before then. Therefore they see this interpretation as the most correct. Side note; typically people who are educated refrain from using phonetics or interpretations of the tetragrammaton as it is considered an extreme sign of disrespect to the ethnic religions of all hebrew peoples, as it was only permitted to be used by the kohen gadol during the holiest day of the year on the foundation of the holy temples. As such, there is no competition to the mis-used representation of 'YHWH' as the default, which is compounded by the overwhelming use of 'YHWH' in both spoken and written works by the previously mentioned groups, even though there is no known correct pronunciation of this name. Cakiva (talk) 10:41, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transliteration of the Tetragrammaton? 

message: I have heard some remarks that the original Qere-Kativ substitution for the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton may have been Sh'ma (in the Aramaic meaning of His Name rather than the usual Hebrew meaning, given that Aramaic was prevalent when the original ban on speaking the Name in public began.  This would explain the most common set of vowels in the Aleppo, WLC, and Cairo codices, which are grammatically improper because they lack a vowel for the first hey in the Name.  If the original substituted pronunciation were Sh'ma, the vowels agree and the missing vowel is explained.  However, all of my sources on this are anecdotal.  Is anyone aware of sources which support or refute this view?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.99.25.2 (talk) 06:24, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Qere-Kativ as Sh'ma rather than Adonai

message: The Hebrew letters are Yodh, He (letter) and Waw (letter). Editor2020 (talk) 00:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Hebrew letter is Vav now. When it was waw, it was a /w/. — LlywelynII 08:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  No W in Hebrew  

message: "Adonai" is listed under both "The Tetragrammaton" and "Other names and titles of God". Can the content from the "Other..." section be merged into the "Tetragrammaton" section? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:17, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. — LlywelynII 08:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adonai appears twice 

message: I think there should be a section explaining how the names of God in Judaism influenced the speech among Jewish people. Yah is a vocative particle in Arabic and I don't think Arabic-speaking Jewish people would utter that specific name. (Or maybe I'm wrong.) Komitsuki (talk) 15:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence of names in daily Jewish speech 

message: I deleted the section on Jehovah - this name is never used by Jews or in Jewish writings. PiCo (talk) 06:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the Jehovah article, it's used in Karaite Judaism. StAnselm (talk) 07:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I find that a bit hard to believe. The spelling with a letter J and a letter V is German, where the J represents the sound we use Y for in English and the V is pronounced as a W sound - so Jehovah pronounced the English way is a mispronunciation of the German. The German word in turn, I believe, is an attempt to fill in the vowels of YHWH (JHVH in German). Neither has any connection with Judaism, whether Karaite or other. I think, if we want to ask someone (I'm no expert), then user AnonMoos would be the one - he seems very knowledgeable. He hangs out a lot in the article YHWH. PiCo (talk) 07:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jehovah 

message: Since this note is included on the page to be "more accurate", we may as well avoid this folk-y "gutteral throat-clearing" and give the exact sound so people can look it up and hear it for themselves. I assume this is either the [glottal stop] or the [voiced pharyngeal fricative]. Can anyone confirm it? Flipping Mackerel (talk) 01:54, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "gutteral throat-clearing" 

message: How does one get Polytheism from the imperatives, " “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. You must not have any other gods against my face." and "“YOU must not fear other gods, and YOU must not bow down to them nor serve them nor sacrifice to them"? (Exodus 20:2,3;2 Kings 17:35) Maxximiliann (talk) 00:29, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Posterity edit, because it makes reference to there being other gods that can be worshiped, and through this recognition it can be seen that they acknowledged other gods, which seems to be enough Cakiva (talk) 10:45, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polytheists? Really? 

message: The sections on writing names of deity and the 7 names of god contain errors (8 names listed not 7), redundancies, and contradictions.  These paragraphs should be merged and cleaned up.Serkul (talk) 02:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  7 names of god 

message: There are still 8 names listed, and even the 7 names are not the correct ones.  According to Maimonides (Mishna Torah, Yesode HaTorah §6:2):
ושבעה שמות הן--השם הנכתב יוד הא ואו הא והוא השם המפורש, או הנכתב אלף דאל נון יוד, ואל, ואלוה, ואלוהים, ואהיה, ושדיי, וצבאות.  כל המוחק אפילו אות אחת משבעה שמות אלו, לוקה.
There are seven names: the Name written yod he vav he, and this the shem hamforash, [the name] written aleph daled nun yod, "El", "Eloah", "Elohim", "Ehyeh", "Shaddai", and "Tzeva'oth".  One who erases even one letter of these seven names is whipped. (Translation mine.)
Accordingly, the page should be updated properly. MannyWolfe (talk) 07:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction of all 7 names 

message: Eloah doesn't "appear to be a singular feminine" (this would be Eloha), it's simply a singular of Elohim, the "a" being a detail of pronunciation before a pharyngeal or glottal consonant (cf. Arabic 3inda, which to a Westerner may sound like "aynda"). I don't have good sources ready at hand, though. 46.186.34.99 (talk) 22:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  According to at least one online dictionary (http://www.morfix.co.il/%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%94), it's masculine.  I'm going to remove "feminine". 71.232.17.196 (talk) 16:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: If this article was called Names of God in the Hebrew Bible then we could more easily include material that relates to the widely held academic view that the names of God used often reflect the source of the material i.e. P and J in the Documentary Hypothesis or supplementary theories.  There is also considerable evidence that the names of God reflect the polytheistic origins of the various HB texts.  These views are held by Jewish writers and academics as well as non Jewish writers.  This article restricts itself by largely reflecting religious views. I doubt that a change of title will be accepted, so I would like to add an additional section that describes the widely held views that relate to the names of god reflecting sources of Biblical texts, and a section on names of god reflecting polytheistic origins of what is now JudaismBaal is my Lord and Master 16:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: This sentence is original research, based on the source.   El (god), Elohim (god, singular and plural form, depending on the context), El Shaddai (god almighty), Adonai (master), Elyon (highest) and Avinu (our father) are regarded by many religious Jews not as names, but as epithets or titles highlighting different aspects and 'roles' of God.[1]  The RS actually states that the two names of God YHWH/Adonai and Elohim are related to the sources J and E.  It is due to Rabbinic tradition that they are considered to denote different aspects of God.  The RS makes no reference to the beliefs of individual Jews, or to the other names of God.  I will re write to reflect what the RS actually states.Baal is my Lord and Master 08:34, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  OR in Lead 

message: is almost always a bad idea since Wikipedia (by design) is not a place where we have experts curating such things. Kindly reinclude these sources as they are used to support points in the text of the article:
* Harris  Laird,  Archer, Gleason Jr. and Waltke, Bruce K. (eds.) Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2 vol., Moody Press, Chicago, 1980.
* Hoffman, Joel M.  In the Beginning:  A Short History of the Hebrew Language, NYU Press (2004).  .
* Joffe, Laura, "The Elohistic Pslater: What, How and Why?", Scandinavian Journal of the Old Testament, vol 15-1, pp. 142–169 Taylor & Francis AS, part of the Taylor & Francis Group., June 2001.
* Kearney, Richard, "The God Who May be: A Hermeneutics of Religion", Modern Theology, January 2002, vol. 18, no. 1, pp. 75–85(11)
* Kretzmann, Paul E., Popular Commentary of the Bible, The Old Testament, Vol. 1. Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, Mo. 1923.
* Shaller, John, The Hidden God, The Wauwatosa Theology, vol. 2, pp. 169–187, Northwestern Publishing House, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 1997.
* Stern, David. Jewish New Testament Commentary, Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc., Clarkville, Maryland, 1996.
* Strong, James, The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon-Cokesbury Press, New York and Nashville, 1890.
* Swart, Jacobus G. The Book of Sacred Names, Sangreal Sodality Press, Johannesburg, 2011. 
* Tov, E., "Copying a Biblical Scroll", Journal of Religious History,  vol. 26, no. 2, pp. 189–209(21), Blackwell Publishing, June 2001
* Vriezen, Th. C., The Religion of Ancient Israel, The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1967.
 — LlywelynII 01:27, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Further reading

message: See above. Also, these texts were listed in the #Bibliography section
* .
* .
* .
but were entirely unused by the article itself. Kindly reinclude them as they are used to support points in the text of the article. — LlywelynII 01:46, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for future article expansion

message: This edit established the usage of the page as  which was changed without discussion by an anonymous editor. I can see how  would be sensible for a Judeocentric article but afaict there's no actual policy on that so I'll restore the original usage pending a new consensus here. — LlywelynII 03:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:ERA

message: I removed this from the #YHWH section
:The Jewish Publication Society translation of 1917, in online versions, uses YHWH once at Exodus 6:3.
since it seems like a completely non- point. The KJV has had profound importance in English religion and might merit mention of its translations but is there anything particularly important about this one? (If so, that's fine but kindly include mention of its importance and link to its article should you reïnclude it.) — LlywelynII 06:34, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, as Jews typically do not write the phonetics or transliterations of the tetragrammaton out of respect, unless it's a secular piece that simply needs to use it for reference. By having this interpretation of the tetragrammaton included in a Jewish-printed religious context, it provides clarity that this term has been used by at least some Jews. Cakiva (talk) 10:49, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish Publication Society

message: If there were a single valid pronunciation, it'd be worth including that since someone seeing it for the first time might come up with some variants. Since the OED lists no less than 7 major variants, though, I've removed the (single, unsourced, American variant) pronunciation that was previously given. Anything an English-speaking reader would come up with on their own is already acceptable and we can leave it for Wiktionary to laundry list the others. — LlywelynII 07:22, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Adonai

message: I like that it's here and includes commentary but surely it's one of the uncommon names as well. Similarly, Ishi and El Roi seem to just be mentioned in single biblical verses. Are they really in common use? — LlywelynII 08:27, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Baal

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replies: text: Checked. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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replies: text: Checked. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:30, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I think it would be great to include an explanation for why יְיָ is used in place of יהוה. That term is found in many written Hebrew prayers and blessings, but I do not see any explanation for it on Wikipedia. As I understand, יְיָ is based on a Kabbalistic symbol for God’s name that consists of two yuds with a sideways vav above them. The numerical sum of those three letters is 26, which is the same as God’s name (יהוה). Printers had trouble representing the sidewise vav. The symbol was thus simplified into the two yuds alone. (Source: https://www.aish.com/atr/Two-Yuds-for-Name-of-God.html) It would be great to have a primary source on this, or at least scholarly sources to back it up. And I'd appreciate an explanation on why the vowels Shva and Kamatz are used under each respective yud. I have been unable to find an explanation for those particular vowels. DAK4Blizzard (talk) 18:49, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add a section for the abbreviation יְיָ found in prayer books? 

message: I did not write this paragraph and not really qualified to defend its contents. That said, I did try to make it more coherent, and "complete", in particular to people who are not familiar with Hebrew (which is presumbly most readers.). Kabbala is a esoteric mystical system, so obviously it doesn't hold itself to modern academic or encyclopaedic standards, though It Is systematic. So , if you could point out to spelution I made compared to 03:27, 21 December 2019 (before I started editing this part) that fair enough, I just want to point out that this is an inherently speculatory subjetct by nature.
--Nngnna (talk) 10:34, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea what "spelution" may mean. Regardless, it is indeed a highly speculatory subject, and so we do not need to make it even more so in a article that is not only about kabbalah. These speculatory details are already described in those specific WP articles that are dedicated to the subject. Thank you. warshy (¥¥) 21:27, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: English is my second language so I might occasionaly make slight mistypes in a conversation context, "thank you for being understanding". I was asking what are the speculation you are concerned about? Becouse I thought I was only making the paragraph more clear.--Nngnna (talk) 12:01, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep in mind, as I said, that this is NOT an article about kabbalah specifically (even though kabbalists have always a ball with this subject). Therefore the amount of speculative kabbalistic detail needed here, in this specific page, should not go too far. The reader will find that level in kabbalah specific pages, if interested, I am sure. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 18:30, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. That's a different consideration, but a fair one. I'll see, when I have time, if I can abstract or flat out remove any problematic detail rather then elaborate on it.--Nngnna (talk) 09:25, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kabbalistic use 

message: @Zhomron I was looking at the Hebrew, not the English. The translation simplifies the text, conflates the variants into just Elohim. GordonGlottal (talk) 19:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Aside from the translation issue -- unless you're in one of the sections with a great manuscript (Taharot, mostly) lists in the Mishneh Torah are unreliable. It's common to see (like here) a numbered list where the list exceeds the number. This (Frankel) should be your first resource, but anyway not a translation. TBH it shouldn't be your first option for what "Rabbinic Judaism" thinks on law anyway, because it's rarely original and always superseded; theology is another story. GordonGlottal (talk) 19:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names 

message: Given that this is an English wiki, with many readers who are not fluent readers of Hebrew, should Hebrew words be shown with niqqud (vowel marks) or, as is customarry in Hebrew publications, without them? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 06:08, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, in Hebrew text without niqqud, should text be given in  (, full spelling) or in  (, )? --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:30, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Niqqud 

message: I think that if we are discussing the names of God, it would be a disservice to not talk about Yeshua HaNazarei Vemelek HyaHudim  (Jesus of Nazareth King of The Jews). It was what Pilate ordered placed on the cross which the Pharisees tried to demand be taken down. I don’t want to bring it up to cause anyone to get angry but I do think that it is very much relevant to billions of people and therefore should be acknowledged. 2600:1016:B125:AABF:E895:8FD6:43DC:EAB0 (talk) 11:06, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That has nothing to do with the topic of the article. It might belong in Names of God in Christianity, or in Names of God in various religions should someone create it. I suggest that you either repost in Talk:Names of God in Christianity or WP:BEBOLD and add it to Names of God in Christianity.  -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  YHVH 

message: the Hebrew spelling of the name for the 6th letter Vav is VV and not VAV. Therefore its Gematria is 6+6=12.
Thus note Error under  Kabbalism Heading, using Gematria on the name YHWH. WaKrigeKmWC (talk) 17:42, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gematria in Hebrew