Talk:Turkey/Archive 11

message: Nearly every section can do with more citations. I know its up for good article review, but unless morder references are added i cant see it acheiveing GA status. General rule of thumb i believe is every paragraph should have at least one citation, this article isnt even close to that at the moment. The majority of citaitons are devoted to two events, Turkeys founding role in a number of IGO's, and the throwing of immigrants into the sea by Greeks! So lets start getting this article in order. Thanks, --A.Garnet 16:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right. I will try to find some general references. By the way, for those of you who might be interested, the Suleiman the Magnificent article is also on Good Article review, its nomination was put on hold for a week starting yesterday, and some points were made in the talk page for improvement. If anyone has some extra time, they can have a look there to see what can be done and maybe try to find some references etc. Cheers! Baristarim 19:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing that is sorely needed, simply because it is so hard to come by, is a good statistic for the religion figures. For one reason 99.8 percent seems, well, too close to perfection :) So if someone finds some sort of a survey, research etc on this, that would be great. I have been looking for it for a long time.. Baristarim 20:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need citations 

message: I don't like the Whirling Dervishes picture. It is too dark. Hard to see the dervishes' heads. It is not an attractive picture. Can we find a better one? 129.34.20.19 16:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: lol. another picture would be nice :) Baristarim 22:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Been making some progress with rewrites and sources. Next is the education and religion section, and demographics section. All those sections are lacking much more fundamental information that need to be there, but Kabardians make the list!! Great.. There is still no reference cited for the age brackets, but Ossetians are there! Life expectancy sources weren't there, but it's ok, let's mention the Hamshenis! :))
I propose that some people better bring in good sources about ethnic groups, then we only mention the five-six biggest ones in this format: "the major ethnic groups include...". There is no need to mention Levantines etc. What is amazing is that the Jews (who only number 25,000 max) make a huge cut in both demographics and religion section, but Russians (who by some estimates number half a million) are not even mentioned. Gotta love the politically correct ethnic merry-go-round :) The list is way too confusing, and simply stupid. I had removed some of them two months ago, who put them back in?
By sources, I don't mean simply books written in a university in Australia, I mean the evidence of an actual seperate ethnic existence. The simple declaration that "there are xxx numbers of Laz" doesn't mean anything, do they really exist as a seperate group? If they do, do they see "Laz" and "Turkish" as exclusive? etc... A definite standard of proof would be the evidence of seperate socio/political structures. This somehow justifies the inclusion of the "big three" of Lausanne even though their numbers are extremely small compared to some others. This is important since we are not talking about "Turkish of xxx origin", but rather "ethnic groups".
Please take a look at other FA country articles, none of them are so disorganized in such sections. Instead of simply bloating the article, let's try to keep it concise. Concise, concise, concise and let's remove information that has nothing to do with a general overview of the country to their respective articles :)) 
Baristarim 23:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as it could be gathered, the main list of ethnicities that have some sort of seperate identity are Kurds, Zaza, Roma, Arabs + we can mention the "big three" (!) as recognized by Lausanne. Obviously it might be politically incorrect to say that the number of Russians is the three combined x 6, but hey, c'est la vie.. So what do people think about replacing the list with:
**"Other major ethnic groups include the Kurds, Zaza, Roma, Arabs and the three official minorities of Greeks, Armenians and Jews." Baristarim 00:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The looong list of ethnicities 

message: This article has been placed on hold for the following reasons:
*Several sections need references:
**Antiquity No references at all.  Please reference
**History of Turks and the Ottoman Empire' Has several assertions of fact with unclear references.  There is one reference here, but it is uncertain if it applies to the whole section or only the sentence it follows.
**Republican era First two paragraphs are unreferenced.
**Government and politics Paragraphs #1 & 3 are unreferenced.
*Style of citations:
**While no specific style of reference is required, following WP:CITE guidelines would indicate that websites need retrieval dates.  To simplify citations, consider using the  templates.  They are not required, but they do help organize the citation information.
Fix these, and I will be back in a week to recheck.  If these issues are not addressed in the next week, I will have to fail the article.  Happy editing! --Jayron32 04:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Review: reasons for Hold 

message: *Gallery removed, some of the pictures have been inserted into appropriate sections. It seems that none of the other FA articles on countries include such a gallery (ex. Canada, Pakistan, Belgium, Australia, India, Bangladesh)
*Economy section finished
*History section needs to be looked at, and maybe trimmed, hopefully will get around to it tomorrow
*Politics section nearly done, might require to be perused one more time
*References section updated and now on par with WP:CITE standards
*Culture section needs one or two sentences about Ottoman architecture, after which the layout of the section should be formatted
*Geography section's climate info needs some work and references, hopefully will get around to it sometime soon
*Minor cleanup in foreign relations
*Some general references here and there
After those and some minor work, the article is set for FA.. Some of the FA country articles are in worse shape actually than this article's current state :) Baristarim 01:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will also take out some of the Greece related stuff in the foreign relations section. That paragraph is bigger than the TR-US relations paragraph, and the section doesn't include any mention of other relations with Israel, Middle East, Russia, Balkans or international organizations. Also will remove most of the list of Int Orgs to the foreign relations article. Baristarim 07:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I would like to get the opinion of other contributors to this article on removing the Turkish names that is used in certain places. I just took a look at Belgium and Canada articles, and I could only find one instance of an alternate name given except for the name of the country. Personally, I think the Turkish names might be better suited in the intro of the relevant articles, and might make this article a bit less confusing for non-Turkish speakers. So what do you think? And is there anything that needs improvement in the article (except for sources in the history and geography (climate) section)? If an expert on antiquity can take a look at that section, I think that covers pretty much everything. This article is currently in a better shape than some other FA country articles like Nepal. Baristarim 07:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Baris, I dont unerstand what you mean by Turkish names in certain places, what are you referring to? Great work on the article anyway. Here are some of my suggestions. We should remove the explanantion of the TRNC after the Annan plan, that is more relevant to Cyprus related articles than here. All we should mention here is Turkey intervened in 1974 following an Athens inspired coup. With regards to Foreign relations, i think it is important to keep a mention of Greco-Turkish relations, especially considering its importance in EU-accesion. But then again we may be able to summarise EU accesion and Greco-Turkish relations including Cyprus in a well written and concise paragraph. On administrative divisions i would remove the picture of Antalya and just leave the provincial map, I think if the image does not serve a purpose it is best not to have. Finally culture can be expanded a little, perhaps more on literature. Thanks, --A.Garnet 15:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I took out that picture. I will rewrite the foreign relations section, but I will keep that in mind. In any case, if there seems to be something missing, you can always add/delete some stuff :) For the Turkish names, I meant "Council of Ministers (Bakanlar Kurulu)" for example. I removed most of the in any case. I just wanted to make a note in the talk page just in case. As for literature.. I was thinking of contacting user:saposcat, however I must just take a look at the Turkish literature article myself and edit accordingly. If I can't, I will contact him to see if he can help out with a couple of sentences. In fact, it is the culture section that is the hardest to write, it requires some careful choice of words and articulate expressions.Baristarim 00:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work, I like this new Turkey article better than the old one. -- WiiVolve 11:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Update

message: On the fourth attempt to go to this article, Wikipedia brought back an article about Turkey rather than one entitled Turkey but entirely about Ninjas - no I wasn't imagining it
80.47.204.87 22:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Temporary Technical Error 

message: Hi Baris, i thought i would give my view on the new section. I have a number of problems with it compared to the old version (but then again i did write the majority of the first version so perhaps i am biased :)). Firstly the first paragraph is very general, talking about NATO, Cold war role, Israel, Iran and Central Asia in one paragraph. 
On the second paragraph I dont think there is enough emphasis on the dominance of Europe on Turkish foreign policy at the moment, it is the major issue of the time and we should provide a short description of the most significant problems i.e. dispute over Cyprus (perhaps merge EU and Greco-Turkish relations in one description?). I think saying there is disagreement over issues is again quite a generelisation. 
The final paragraph is fine. The problem I think is you have tried to cover too much and so you cannot go into much detail. That is why i only concentrated on the US, EU and Greece (mainly because Greco-Turkish relations concern Cyprus and the EU), allowing me to raise a number of specific topics pertinent to its main foreign policy issues. Thats my two cents. --A.Garnet 02:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just saw your post. It is true that I set out to rewrite with the aim of trying to cover many aspects. Hmm. I was also wondering if Greco-Turkish relations should be merged in some way. I don't have a lot of time to look into this right now but I will get back to it later today and peruse the section one more time. Thanks for the review btw! Baristarim 06:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New foreign relations 

message: I am going to pass this article based on the following criteria:
#It is well written.: It is VERY well written.  The prose is easy to understand and flows very nicely!
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.: It is with regard to GA threshold: That is all assertions either challenged or likely to be challenged are referenced.  This article is close to FA status, but further referencing is needed to meet the FA standard for referencing.  See below for some more tips before you take this to FA review...
#It is broad in its coverage.: Boy is it ever.  This is FA material if I ever saw it!
#It follows the neutral point of view policy. With a nation so close to many of our cultutal and philosophical crossroads, it would be east not to be NPOV.  This article seems to do a VERY good job of addressing all issues, even those that could be controversial, in a sensitive and yet comprehensive manner.
#It is stable Looks like the only changes are improvements, and there does not seem to be any contentious edit wars...
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.: I spot checked the images included and they seem to be in good order WRT liscencing.  Please double check EVERY image before going to FA as rules of liscencing images are very stringent there.
If you are going to take this for a Featured Article Review (and I STRONGLY encourage you to do so... I will endorse it!) then please consider the following checks:
*All assertions of fact (not just those deemed "controversial") should probably be referenced.  This is nearly done here, and should be easy to pick up what you missed, things like Historical dates, geographic information, etc. etc.
*All images need to be double checked to insure they ALL meet proper guidelines for inclusion and compatability with GFDL/CC etc.
*There's a typo in the refs section.  One of the dates is missing a digit.  No biggie, but you might as well fix it.
Anyways, congrats, and let me know on my talk page when you nominate this for FA.  Like I said, I will endorse its promotion if it looks as good as it does now! --Jayron32 03:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!!!! Made me smile after a long stressful day. I will fix whatever is necessary to make it FA. Cheers! Baristarim 06:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations to all contributors and to Baristarim who initiated and undertook most of this effort. Thanks for the review Jayron! Atilim Gunes Baydin 18:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yea wonderful job Baristarim :) Its been really good that you've been working on this article for so long. We all really appreciate it :) -- WiiVolve 11:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA PASSED!!!

message: Hi, I took care of the last bad looking image on the article (:Image:Turkish-provinces.png) and made a new provinces template to replace it. Here: :Template:Turkey Labelled Map, I hope it looks OK. I'm not particularly happy with these football and whirling dervishes pictures in the culture section, if these are really the best two images we can put there to give an overall visual representation of the Turkish culture, I'm a bit ashamed of being Turkish. But nevermind. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 23:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see the "whirling" dervishes are not in the culture section and I forgot about the Yali houses picture, which is quite fine. Atilim Gunes Baydin 23:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New provinces template, and a remark about the images in the culture section

message: Today article was vandalled twice. I request semi-protection for this article, so that anon users cannot vandal it.Ugur Olgun 18:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe.. It seems normal-level for now, however it will most probably become semi-protected when it becomes FA. If some sort of vandalism still persists, then I will try to raise the issue with admins. cheers Baristarim 00:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. If this is going to keep happening, they should at least ban the people who are doing it. -- WiiVolve 04:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: I think Khoikhoi should be blocked from editing this article. He is constantly adding extra (unnecessary) information about the Armenian genocide and does not give information about his notions in this talk page. In other words, he's just doing anything that comes into his mind. The things that he puts unbalances the Foreign Relations article. It is too detailed, and if someone really wants to know more about it they would just go to the genocide's own article. It is not needed in the ARTICLE ABOUT TURKEY ITSELF! -- WiiVolve 03:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That issue was discussed in the FAC, I don't think you have taken a look there. It has nothing to do with Khoikhoi my friend. He didn't add that info, nor is he keeping something out of it. Many Turkish editors, including me, have taken a look at that section. What is going on? Please do not make anything personal and just take it easy. It doesn't neccessarily unbalance it, and it is much better there than in the history section. That statement is taken from the BBC article which gives a concise overview about the events and the relations between Armenia and Turkey. Just chill.. Baristarim 04:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khoikhoi 

message: Hi, during last October, I created and uploaded the map :Image:Europe_location_TUR2.png to match the then newly launched map style used by Turkey's immediate neighbors (part of the "Europe location" map series created and maintained by User:David Liuzzo). The "Europe location" map collection is recently updated (see :Image:Europe_location_ITA.png as an example), and unfortunately on the map depicting Turkey in this new series, :Image:Europe_location_TUR.png, the country is half covered with a legend. This last update made :Image:Europe_location_TUR2.png obsolete, as its design is no longer shared with any other country article. The other map suggested by David Liuzzo, :Image:Asia location TUR.png also suffers from not following any established style and is very oddly cropped.
For now, I'm replacing the map with :Image:LocationTurkey2.png, one of the two main designs currently in use. The article can also switch back to the veteran green :Image:LocationTurkey.png, which has less detail. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 05:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we not get David Luzzo to move the legend to the left for the Turkey map? --A.Garnet 13:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still haven't talked with him, but from some of his comments on his user talk page on Commons, and the fact that he nominated :Image:Europe_location_TUR2.png for deletion , it looks like he is not happy to see his design used on this article and he only intends it to be used only when a country is wholly on the European continent. Actually, I sense that he purposefully put the legend there to prevent the design from being used by Turkey, Armenia, and Georgia, as it also conveniently covers the vague European boundaries in the Caucasus. But that's just my guess. Atilim Gunes Baydin 16:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Locator map

message: I can understand turkish culture being influenced by Islamic elements and post renaissance europe, but where does central asian turkic come in ? Turkey have virtually no contact with kazakhstan or kirgizstan or the uighurs. The turkish language is distantly related to their languages but other than that what else is there ? 
Turks have a lot more in common with greeks-food (kebap/gyros, baklava, lokum, raki/oozo), folk dances like chiftelli etc. There is no such thing as a turkic culture, so this doesnt make sense at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Volloman (talk • contribs) 18:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite, take a look at another FA article, Turkish literature. You will see the influence of Central Asian Turkic culture.. Turkish language contains, whatever the reasons, many more original Turkic words today then it did hundred years ago. As for the other stuff :)) I would say that Greeks have a lot more in common with Turks :) Kidding aside, you will also notice that many Turks, including myself, have Central Asian names or surnames (Tarim in my case). Why can be criticized, but it is there. Traditional Turkish national sport, Yagli Gures, is an old Central Asian Oguz Turkic sport. It is fair to say that it is a blend of many cultures. That's all... Don't forget that we are primarily talking about the culture that Turks brought from Central Asia back in the day, not a culture transfer of today. The country's name, "Turkiye", comes from an Old Central Asian Turkic name! What can there be more to say? :) Baristarim 18:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture