Talk:Jacob Epstein

message: The Epstein statue in Liverpool is usually referred to locally as Dickie Lewis, not Swinging Dick -- as a quick Google will rapidly affirm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.171.18 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 31 August 2006
:Well its not an easy Google search to do as you have to exclude all the sites that just syndicate Wikipedia content. However I'm inclined to agree.
:* 'Swinging Dick' - really just one or two - e.g.  and .
:* 'Dickie Lewis' - perhaps about 30 that are relevant, including this one which describes a pub named after the nickname and also shows the statue in question.
:Mind you there also seems to be some disagreement about the official title for the statue. Some sites says its 'Liverpool Resurgent', another gives 'The Spirit of Youth'. Thanks for the local input. -- Solipsist 08:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and for anyone interested, here's a better picture of the statue. -- Solipsist 08:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dickie Lewis

message: I've found two references to the year that daughter Kitty married Wynne Godley so changed to 1955
http://thepeerage.com/p33609.htm#i336087
Also Godley's own website has 1955 as the date.
http://www.wynnegodley.com/
Rrose Selavy (talk) 01:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Year  daughter Kitty married Wynne Godley 

message: In regards to Epstein’s “Jewishness,” in his autobiography  Epstein, Jacob,  ‘’Let There Be Sculpture’’, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, New York,  1940  he describes growing up in “the Jewish quarter” of New York City, about being exposed to “Newspapers in Yiddish, Yiddish theaters, literery societies,” about being taken to the “Chief Rabbi” of NYC, and in one telling passage explains, “I saw a great deal of Jewish orthodox life . . .. I imagine that the feeling I have for expressing a human point of view, giving human rather than abstract implications to my work, comes from these early formative years.” (p. 12).  Let's see if we can get those categories back. Carptrash (talk) 16:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm gathering together some material now that should support that, from his autobiography. Bus stop (talk) 18:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The correct categories have been added, he is of Jewish descent. That's not in dispute. These details don't verify him as practicing the religion. You don't seem to get that there are two types of Jewish categories: one set includes known self-identifying adherents of the religion (American Jews, British Jews, etc.) The other is for non-adherents (American people of Jewish descent, British people of Jewish descent, etc). So far, you are only verifying the latter, not the former. Yworo (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yworo—the sources (that I've seen) are not even presenting his parents as "practicing the religion." Bus stop (talk) 18:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The descent categories are ethnic, the Jews categories are religious. So even if his parents didn't practice, the descent categories are appropriate. Take a look at the supercategories and category trees and you will see what I mean. Yworo (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Was Epstein Bar Mitzvahed? What does his autobiography say? Were his children Bar Mitzvahed?...Modernist (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need to establish that anyone was bar mitzvahed. In Christianity one might be expected to demonstrate their acceptance of Christ as Messiah. No such counterpart exists in Judaism. Religions share similarities, but obviously religions depart from one another in various ways. The basic definition of a Jew is a human being who was either born to a Jewish mother or a human being who converted to Judaism. There are other definitions but this one is said to be the "normative" one. I think it is one of the most basic definitions. But none of the other definitions either, as far as I'm aware, require "practicing" in order to be of the religion. Yworo is applying original research to the definition of Jew. Yworo seems to be applying the mechanisms applicable to defining a Christian to defining a Jew. Bus stop (talk) 19:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

text:  "The average unfavorable criticism of my sculpture or drawings I have never put down to anti-Semitism and I have never joined in all-Jewish exhibitions of art.  Artists are of all races and climes , and to band together in racial groups is rediculus.  I am most often annoyed rather than flattered to be told that I am the best of formost Jewish artist."   
Notice that he does not say, nor can I imagine him thinking to say,  “ Because I am not a Jewish artist.”  Carptrash (talk) 19:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

text: You're not distinguishing between Jewish ethnicity and the Jewish religion. Many sources don't. The criteria for adding a religion category to an article is self-identification as an adherent of the religion, i.e. being not only of Jewish descent but actively practicing Judaism as a religion. You've made no comment about inclusion in the ethnic categories of Jewish descent. Where is the spirit of compromise? I compromised by finding and adding the correct categories given the sources we have. And you haven't even acknowledged that or acknowledged you understand the difference. All the Jewish religion categories have notices at the top saying the some of the entries may be miscategorized. This difference is precisely what those notices are talking about. We don't put people in a religious category unless they self-identify with the belief system rather than just ethnically. Just as we don't call someone agnostic or atheist unless they profess agnosticism or atheism, or call them gay unless they say they are, etc. There are two completely different sets of categories for Judaic people and religious practitioners of Judaism and they were created not to be redundant but to address precisely this difference. Yworo (talk) 20:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources identify him as a Jew, so that's all that matters. I've added to the article four sources that explicitly identify him as Jewish; there are many more. One need not practice Judaism to be a Jew. Also, the "descent" categories are for people who have Jewish ancestors, but are not Jewish themselves. Someone who is Jewish is by definition "of Jewish descent", so the category is redundant in that case. Jayjg (talk) 03:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epstein's Jewishness 

message: In the article we find:
:"I never joined in all-Jewish exhibitions of art. ... I am most often annoyed rather than flattered to be told I am the best or foremost Jewish artist. Surely to be an artist is enough."
It's out of context. It's not representing his (Epstein's) main point. He's not voicing the platitude that his Jewishness is unimportant in contrast to his art which is of transcendent importance. He is writing in 1940, or at least his autobiography is published in 1940, I think, in reference to what he refers to as an antisemitic review (in a publication called the "New Age") of an exhibition of his work. The review itself dates from 1924. I think the spirit of what he is saying has to be seen as a defense against negative charges being lodged against Jews at that time. He speaks not only of himself. He references other Jews, working in other fields of endeavors, some not art-related. 
The book is: Let There Be Sculpture, Jacob Epstein, 1940.
First a quick quote from earlier in the same book, this to show that he thought of his Jewishness as being entwined with his efforts as an artist:
:"The earnestness and simplicity of the old Polish Jewish manner of living has much beauty in it, and an artist could make it the theme of very fine works. This life is fast disappearing on contact with American habits, and it is a pity that there is no Rembrandt of to-day to draw his inspiration from it before it is too late." 
Now here is the longer quote I was referring to at the top. A long part of the below excerpt from his autobiography is his own reproduction of the 1924 review of his art exhibition. My below excerpt is uninterrupted except for parts I couldn't read in Google books because it was unclear. The quote that is in our article is only at the bottom of this long excerpt:
:"In the 'New Age' appeared the following anti-Semitic article. If one refers to the date, 1924, it will be seen that hatred of, and propaganda against the Jews in art is of no recent growth. I, for the life of me, cannot see why my bronzes in this exhibition were peculiarly Jewish, any more than the works of Rembrandt, and he is certainly not condemned for his Jewish subject matter, except by the Nazis, of course. I remember that Modigliani was intensely proud of his Jewish origin, and would contend with absurd vehemence that Rembrandt was Jewish. He gave as his reason that Rembrandt must have been Jewish on account of his profound humanity. This article in the 'New Age,' where even the Child's Studies of Peggy Jean "are touched with horror," Aryanism has run amok. This review, so venomous, so vile, was signed by a pseudonym—Rusticus. Obviously a forerunner of Herr Streicher. I print this piece of Aryanism for what it is worth. I will add that since the growth of Nazism and Fascism, both Italian and English, I have been favoured by articles in Der Sturmer, and similar periodicals in Germany and Austria; not to speak of attacks in our own Fascist Press, and the painting of the Hudson Memorial in Hyde Park with Swatstikas. When invited to show at the Venice Biennial by the Italian Government, receiving a personal invitation from Count Volpi, my works on arrival at the British Pavilion were held up, as Mussolini, in imitation of Hitler, had brought in his Aryan decrees; but the twenty-two works were, nevertheless, eventually shown, owing to the strong representations made by the British Committee." 
:"Here is the 'New Age' article of February 14th, 1924:"
:::"'There is no race in the world more enigmatic, more fatal, and therefore more interesting than the Jews.'—Dr. Oscar Levy."
:::"On leaving the exhibition we remarked to the attendant that a world peopled by such inhabitants as the artist depicted would be a nightmare. "But different people have different ideas on art," was the reply. "For instance, you might not like Chinese art, but still it is art."
:::"He apparently recognized that Epstein was not of the Aryan race, for this significant fact burns itself on the consciousness of every European who enters that room. Surrounded by Epstein's sculptures, the Aryan is in face of alien genius."
:::"Puzzled, vaguely uneasy, you wander round closely inspecting each head in turn. Wonderfully moulded, they are the work of a genius. They grip you. They will not let you go. But a sickening disgust gradually conquers you. The intensity of repulsion aroused by them cannot be explained merely on the ground of their Semitic cast—their high cheek bones, their half-shut eyes, their prominent noses and their full open lips. There is something more. They are instinct with evil."
:::"On closer analysis, it is found that there is a wide gulf between the men and women represented by Epstein. The women appear to be of a lower race. They are types without individuality. [The next several sentences are partially illegible in Google books.] So detestable has Epstein found the Aryan type that we turn from his insipid frigid creatures, "An English girl" and "Selina", with distaste. At least his Semitic creations are full of vitality and power."
:::"Mr. Orage contended that the Jew forms a link between the black and white races. This theory would explain how Epstein could so sympathetically depict a young Senegalese girl. Although she possesses the usual heavy features of the negress, the sculptor has endowed her with a gentle smile which makes us feel the human predominate over the animal."
:::"The mens heads are highly individualised. But they represent the power of intellect divorced from character. Here is old Pinager with knotted hands, terribly alive in spite of his amusing attitude. Dr. Adolph S. Oko, with intellectual head and cold, sneering, irresistible smile; the Duke of Marlborough cased in aristocratic pride; the Napoleonic study of a man; and the marvelously vivid head of R. B. Cunninghame Graham. Into these sculptures Epstein has poured his genius. But they are incarnations of evil."
:::"We recall the poise and balance of the Greek gods and feel that we are surrounded in their stead by Circean beasts. Where is man's power to erect himself above himself? How loathsome is the species when deprived of nobility and dignity! Even the charming studies of "Peggy Jean," the baby laughing, grave, asleep, are touched with horror when we contemplate the adults by whom she is surrounded and whom she will grow up to resemble."
:::"It is significant that Jacob Epstein should choose to display his undoubted genius in the portrayal of such savage types. His models, according to the photographs published in the daily Press, are ordinary good-looking people. But he has read into them certain bestial characteristics. Why has he done so?"
:::"We believe that in the artistic genius the soul of the race speaks. The individual is here the instrument impelled by a power far greater than himself. And we believe that in his gallery of sculptures, Jacob Epstein has expressed the subconscious racial Hebraic life—utterly and entirely alien to the Aryan life which reached its artistic apotheosis in Greek sculpture, and Christian painting and poetry."
:::"In the Grecian marbles, the human spirit sought expression for the ideal. Before even their mutilated remains were uplifted and chastened—we glimpse Olympia beyond and above our petty selves and share the larger life of common aspiration. But before Epstein's works we are humiliated and cast down. It seems scarcely worth while to belong to such a bestialized or evil humanity. He narrows us down to tribal conceptions—to animal women serving the lust of their patriarchal owners, cunning and cruel. The centuries are obliterated. European civilization has vanished. Balance, self-poise, control, proportion—the gifts of ages—have been swept away. He transports us anew to the twilight of early Jewry, where power is the motive force of man, and woman is but an instrument of sensuality."
:"This astonishing tirade might have been written in the Germany of to-day. I remember when in New York one evening, at a party to which a friend had taken me, I met the genial Pascin, very depressed, and recall with what pleasure he greeted me. At that time in New York he was attacked by anti-Semitic art critics, and as he had had great popularity there, this weighed upon him. Shortly after that he committed suicide in Paris. The average unfavourable criticism of my sculpture or drawings I had never put down to anti-Semitism, and I have never joined all-Jewish exhibitions of art. Artists are of all races and climes, and to band together in racial groups is ridiculous. I am most often annoyed rather than flattered to be told that I am the best or foremost Jewish artist. Surely to be an artist is enough. Who thinks of whether Menuhin or Huberman are Jewish when you hear them playing the violin? Or whether Einstein is Semitic in science? Einstein said to me when I worked from him that it was only the Nazis who had made him conscious of his Jewish origin. This pernicious racialism in art should be forever banished." 
I don't think the quote as presently placed in the article conveys an accurate representation of Epstein's thoughts. I've changed it to read as follows:
:"Epstein being a Jew,[8][9][10][11] negative reviews of his work sometimes took on an antisemitic flavor.[12]"
I think the above wording is more in keeping with what the larger context implies. Bus stop (talk) 05:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  context for quote in article 

message: and here we are again.  I just cut this out. 
:"Epstein was Jewish for all his life,"ART: Familiar Sensation", TIME, March 25, 1935. "The spectacle to which he referred was an 11-ft., 7-ton statue of Christ propped against the wall in London's swank Leicester Galleries, the latest work of a heavyset, U.S.-born Jewish sculptor, Jacob Epstein."Ezra Mendelsohn, Painting a People: Maurycy Gottlieb and Jewish Art, University Press of New England, 2002, p. 240. "In his discussion of the American-born Jewish sculptor Jacob Epstein, Hutchins Hapgood writes..."Alyson Pendlebury, Portraying 'the Jew' in First World War Britain, Vallentine Mitchell, 2006, p. 165. "Among the most striking of these is an image of the Anglo-Jewish sculptor Jacob Epstein, a private in the 38th battalion, modelling a human figure out of sand..."Peter Lawson, Anthony Rudolf, Anglo-Jewish Poetry from Isaac Rosenberg to Elaine Feinstein, Vallentine Mitchell, 2006, p. 84. "... with the American-Jewish sculptor Jacob Epstein..."" 
Why? you might ask.  Well for one thing, if one is born Jewish, how is one not Jewish all one's life?  And the references given do not really say he was Jewish all his life.  rather they show that various writers at various different times called him Jewish. So I lopped that off and plopped it here.  Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the IP insertion, so the sentence is back to what it was before, which is an accurate representation of the sources. I'm not sure why you had to remove the entire reference, rather than just the recent IP insertion. In any event, the discussion of antisemitism makes little sense unless one knows that Epstein was Jewish. Jayjg (talk) 05:15, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  We have been here before 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: When this was unveiled in Hyde Park in 1927, the Prime Minister was visibly shocked. It was vandalized off and on till the war broke out. If we can get some sources, could be worth a mention. 2600:1010:B067:AAC8:B117:8DB8:7FFE:A29 (talk) 21:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Stanley Baldwin was "visibly shocked"? Yes,  this source also says: ".. questions were asked in Parliament, the Royal Academy campaigned for its removal and it was vandalised with green paint" (that last detail already mentioned, I think). Perhaps we could consult Hansard to see what those questions were? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Hudson Memorial

message: The 'Wetherill' character in this E. C. Bentley detective novel is supposed to be based on Epstein. This can be added when a reference is found. 2600:1010:B067:AAC8:B117:8DB8:7FFE:A29 (talk) 21:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Trent's Own Case

message: A late watercolour by Epstein, of dahlias was featured on BBC One's Antiques Roadshow on 15 October 2017: . It was valued by art expert Dendy Easton at £4,000 - £6,000. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:35, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''[[Antiques Roadshow]]'' 

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