Talk:Sengunthar

message: The terms 'Kaik Kolar' refer to only people in the Chola regiment and not a caste. the word kaikkolar means one belonging to a regiment. People from various castes represented in the chola army. Therefore the current day Kaikolars are descendants of the commanders and soldiers of Chola army and they are not originated from a single caste
:Really? A quick skim through the sources suggests to me that kaikkolar is actually the common name and that sengunthar is far less common. We may be looking at a move of this article before too long. - Sitush (talk) 01:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, the source continues  So, yes, looks like I have it wrong, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 05:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Addendum: it is confusing, though. This whole business of Kaikkolar messes things up no end and I'm not convinced that the article properly explains what has gone on. I suspect that there has been some invention of tradition, which is very common for castes. - Sitush (talk) 05:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology discussion

message: Before 17th century Sengunthar used Mudaliar, Pillai, Devar, Rayar, Desigar as their title.
After 17th century they used only Mudaliar as their Title 
 Chola sengunthar (talk) 13:01, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title used by sengunthar  

message: Sengunthar and Senaithalivar has same origin
They split separately after later Cholas Chola sengunthar (talk) 13:03, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We need reliable sources that say so, as also for your previous comment above. See WP:V and WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 13:18, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sengunthar and Senaithalivar 

message: :Kathleen Gough uses the word Sengunda in this book. I suspect that is an alternate spelling. - Sitush (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sengunda 

message: Why Edgar Thurston is not a reliable source ? Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 12:50, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed and agreed on multiple occasions, including at the reliable sources noticeboard. Both WP:HISTRS and User:Sitush/CasteSources give some reasons. - Sitush (talk) 12:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: why removing gotra of Sengunthar
And hereditary headman of Sengunthar who called as Naattanmaikarar and Periyadhanakarar of Sengunthar Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 16:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: See the section above. If I could understand what you had written, and if it was reliably sourced, then there would be no need to remove it. Are you saying that there one one head of the entire caste, despite it being spread over a large area? If it was hereditary, did it pass from father to eldest son or what? And why does the headman seem to have two titles (Naattanmaikarar and Periyadhanakarar). You may understand it but I don't, and I've got a lot of experience in dealing with caste articles. - Sitush (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Or are you saying that the Sengunthar all belong to one gotra called the Naattanmaikarar and that the headman was (or still is?) called the Periyadhanakarar? - Sitush (talk) 16:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: The source seems to suggest that there might be many "headmen" because it says that the titles of Naattanmaikarar and Periyadhanakarar are given to the head of a nadu council. There were many nadus. Do the councils still exist? - Sitush (talk) 16:48, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Great, thanks. So each nadu might have a council and the council will include several people. Are those council members elected or are they hereditary as you say the heads are? Are these councils old things or a relatively new idea? I just think we are asking a lot of a single line in the glossary of the Mattison Mines book - we could do with more information. We will get there, though - it is much easier to work out the issues here and then add the information. - Sitush (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Wouldn't we be better trying to summarise what is said here in the source? - Sitush (talk) 14:26, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid this still makes no sense to me. I know what a gotra is and we do not usually bother mentioning them but is Navaveerargal the name of the gotra or Upa Subramanya? And which were the ancestors of the Sengunthar? - Sitush (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: So Navaveerargal is a place? What about all the other places? - Sitush (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Forget that. I see we said "They believe that the original nine Kaikolars called Navaveerargal served in an army fighting on behalf of Murugan and that they descend from these nine people". That is fine. I've just got to find the gotra in there. - Sitush (talk) 17:23, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: And the Upa Subramanya bit came from a book of poems whose date of publication I cannot work out. I'm not convinced that poetry is a great way to source it. - Sitush (talk) 17:26, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Yes, I understand the nine hero bit, thanks. I just do not see where the Uba Subramanya term comes from and the only source we had for that seemed to be a book of poetry, which is not great. Since we don't usually bother mentioning gotra (of which there can be 100s sometimes for one caste), can't we just leave it as it is now? What we say agrees with the source and with your explanation (which I am grateful for - thanks). - Sitush (talk) 17:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  gotra and hereditary head man of Sengunthar 

message: Adhi Diwakaram is not comes under Chola period because the time line of medival Chola is 9th to 13th century.
It comes under interregnum period of Tamil Nadu.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tamil_Nadu Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 13:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adhi Diwakaram 

message: Mr. Scartiastic last version  is best accepted, evidenced one. Why do you revert it??????? Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 08:42, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The version which i have reverted is so far the best stable one once reviewed by Sitush (talk). So its better to stick to that version for a while until he comes back, since he is active on these topics and is quite trusted by other editors. Thanks Mr.Sarcastic (talk) 04:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revertion 

message: They not only weavers. 
They perusing many Textile related jobs like Sizing, [[Spinning], Dyeing.
 Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 08:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occupation 

message: Please add Murugan(Subramaniya swami)
As kula deva for this community. 
 Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kula deva for this community. 

message: vijaya ramawamys book -historical dictionary of tamils  has been misquoted quoted here.
its seen here that the kaikkolars are tradional users of the title "mudaliar", along with vellalars .
 The caste title Mudali or Mudaliyar is used by upper-caste non brahmins like vellala agriculturists and kaikkola weavers . 
It aslo mentions the castes which came to use the title mudaliar aspirationally. 
 the title of Mudaliyar seems to have been used as a caste title by those social groups seeking upword mobility. Thus, communities of Jains, Gadabas, Occhans, Pallis, and Vanniyans also used the title of Mudaliyar..
Hence  i request the editors in charge   and others 
to delete the "asipirational" wording and make changes accordingly . Thank you.
--An asian peasant (talk) 10:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mudaliar title used by sengunthar/kaikkolar  is a historical title not an aspirational modern practice