Talk:Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany

message: Could somebody who knows how create a couple redirects to this page, for example from "2+4," "2 + 4," "2+4 negotiations," etc.?  That would be awesome, thanks.  Nicolasdz 21:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. 2+4 2 + 4 2+4 Negotiations 2 + 4 Negotiations 2 4 Negotiations (The last one was a mistake, but oh well.) Any others? MarcusGraly 15:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect

message: Out of interest, does the treaty still hold (is it still valid)? I only wonder as the Soviet Union, one of the signatories and the one to whom the agreements on arms were made to, no longer exists, is Germany still bound by the agreement? Fetu's dad (talk) 00:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a german I hope so. I assume that Russia has taken over the place of the Soviet Union.--Oneiros (talk) 14:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah! Today no foreign armed forces, nuclear weapons or their carriers are stationed in former East Germany or deployed there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.89.141 (talk) 03:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Does the treaty still hold?

message: The Saarland used to be a UN protectorate after WWII, and after a failed vote to make it an independent country, it was reunited with Germany in 1957. Maybe somebody could link it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_%281947%E2%80%931957%29 I don't want to mess up the box. ––Mwimmer (talk) 17:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Saar Region missing

message: Why did the Allies even sign this treaty??? It seems they are only giving up the rights they were holding over Germany and Berlin, and got nothing in return. This must be one of the most one-sided international treaties ever made.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.181.194.12 (talk) 23:03, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What they got was a democratic, stable German state that they no longer had the responsibility to police. Sounds like a bargain. 109.155.172.75 (talk) 20:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: sowjets got money; french got the euro; us got a reunifed germany in nato; only uk got nothing cause thatcher accepted no deal  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.195.69.112 (talk) 18:59, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And besides, it's rather the normal state of affairs that wars are followed with a peace treaty which 100% restores souvereignty and 100% ends occupation. Sometimes the loser has to "pay with a province" (Francis Joseph's expression concerning the Lombardy) - but then, Germany had paid Silesia, Eastern Prussia and so forth.--131.159.0.47 (talk) 13:41, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Why?

message: Whoever wrote that is ignorant of International law.  The former German province of East Prussia was in a "temporary administered pending the Final Peace Treaty with Germany" status for 45 years (1945-1990).  It was only after the Germans in the 1990 Peace Treaty stipulated that "Germany" is only those lands within the 1990 Peace Treaty approved boundaries that the Russians and the Poles could petition for International Law to recognize the 45 year old line in East Prussia which separated the Russian "Administrators" from the Polish "Administrators" as being, post German Peace Treaty, an international boundary between Poland and Russia.
Here is from Article 1 of the 1990 German Peace Treaty:
ARTICLE 1
(1) The united Germany shall comprise the territory of the Federal Republic of Germany,
the German Democratic Republic and the whole of Berlin. Its external borders shall be
the borders of the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic
and shall be definitive from the date on which the present Treaty comes into force. The
confirmation of the definitive nature of the borders of the united Germany is an essential
element of the peaceful order in Europe.
(2) The united Germany and the Republic of Poland shall confirm the existing border
between them in a treaty that is binding under international law.
(3) The united Germany has no territorial claims whatsoever against other states and shall
not assert any in the future.
(4) The Governments of the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic
Republic shall ensure that the constitution of the united Germany does not contain any
provision incompatible with these principles. This applies accordingly to the provisions
laid down in the preamble, the second sentence of Article 23, and Article 146 of the Basic
Law for the Federal Republic of Germany.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.243.123 (talk) 06:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it was the German point of view that Eastern provinces were under Polish administration (though even in the German view, they said administration, which is much much more than mere occupation), but not necessarily the view of the rest of the world. Also, Germany itself had (somewhat) recognized the Polish border in a treaty in 1972 (or so), leaving a tiny loophole for the event of a future Reunification, but by no means more than that (which was highly controversial in the 1970s, to be sure).--131.159.0.47 (talk) 13:49, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Another of the treaty's important terms was Germany's confirmation of the internationally recognized border with Poland and Russia" 

message: Was the Federal Republic of Germany not a sovereign state before? I think I was the one who originally wrote that Germany became a fully sovereign state with the treaty, but I think I was wrong looking back. Can anyone point to me any powers the Allies had over West Germany before this treaty was signed (aside from Berlin, which was not part of the Federal Republic)?Bold text
 - 07:15, 28 December 2015‎ Reenem
::United Berlin became a part of the Federal Republic of Germany on 3 October 1990 at the moment of German Reunification, but Berlin was still under a (soft) Occupation regime until this Treaty entered into force on 15 March 1990 and the last Allied Forces left in 1994 under its terms. Also, East Germany was absorbed by the Federal Republic upon reunification, but the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany remained present in the new territory acquired by the Federal Republic until the completion of the Allied withdrawal on 31 August 1994 under the Treaty. So, yes, parts of the Federal Republic had a presence of Occupation forces that needed to withdraw. Granted that, regarding West Germany proper (not including West Berlin that technically was not a part of West Germany), the Occupation regime had ended with the Paris Treaty of 23 October 1954 that entered into force on 5 May 1955. But the Western Allies retained an Occupation presence in West Berlin, and only left as a consequence of the Two-Plus-Four Treaty. Also, the Allied Control Council had to meet to authorize the inclusion of the city of Berlin, due to its special international status as still-Occupied territory, in the German Reunification. Furthermore, the Potsdam Agreement had created provisional borders for Germany, and had ceded areas to Polish administration pending the final settlement of Germany's borders in a definitive Peace Treaty. Therefore, the solution was still provisional, and the areas acquired by Poland were not fully Polish de jure in international law until a final decision was made in the Peace Treaty with Germany. That decision was formalized in the Treaty of Final Settlement with respect to Germany: under the Treaty, Germany as required to renounce all claim to land situated to the East of the Oder-Niesse line, and assumed before the Allies the obligation to sign a Treaty with the Republic of Poland so as to confirm as permanent and final the then existing border between them. Germany complied with that demand, and signed the German-Polish Border Treaty.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antonio Basto (talk • contribs) 16:16, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Fully sovereign

message: 2+4 Negotiations 2 + 4 Negotiations link here but there is nothing about the negotiations (sadly). I had heard that M Thatcher was reluctant to agree to this treaty but nothing here about the negotiations and trade-offs. - Rod57 (talk) 11:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  What can we say about the negotiations 

message: ""Final Settlement" redirects here. For the Nazi plan, see Final Solution."
Wow. How cynical to even insinuate that someone might confuse this treaty with the Nazi "Final Solution" plan. 
Do we really need this disambiguation? --217.239.6.161 (talk) 16:42, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cynical disambiguation 

message: It is said that after „Treaty on the final Settlement with respect to Germany" Germany got the sovereignty. This is not quite true. To achieve this the „Überleitungsvertrag“ (Stettlement Convention) must only have been deleted. Instead, bevor coming into effect, 15. March 1991, Germany made two new treaties with the Western Allies:
First, from 25. 9. 1990 – „Übereinkommen zur Regelung bestimmter Fragen in bezug auf Berlin“. I don`t know the british Version.
Second important: Vereinbarung vom 27./28. September 1990 zu dem Vertrag über die Beziehung der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und den Drei Mächten (in der geänderten Fassung) sowie zu dem Vertrag zur Regelung aus Krieg und Besatzung entstandener Fragen (in der geänderten Fassung). This agreement has been published in english (page 2) hier. By this some parts of the Settlement Convention remaind on force or came new. --Fibe101 (talk) 14:21, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  German sovereignty 

message: You added this sentence:
The source says:
In the first place this is WP:COPYVIO (or WP:CLOP, as some people might call it) and is illegal. Secondly, the source doesn't say "new documents point" to this. It seems rather like the author's own assessment. So it should be attributed to the author. I rather doubt the documents show anything as definitive as this statement implies. And, note that this is a blog, a poor-quality source. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New documents point 

message: Hello everybody,
the article makes the following claim:
"Furthermore, the Federal Republic was required by the treaty to amend its Basic Law so as to be constitutionally prohibited from accepting any application for incorporation into Germany[citation needed] from territories outside the territories of East Germany, West Germany and Berlin (although Germany is permitted to maintain research stations in Antarctica; at present it has ten)."
I have never heard of this, just checked the Treaty and the German Basic Law and could not find anything in this regard. Did I miss something?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hannsg.logitech (talk • contribs) 17:33, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have looked through the treaty and the constitution and found the information to be wrong, given that the sentence has no source, I think you should feel free to go ahead and delete it.  LongLivePortugal (talk) 09:17, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I am relatively new to Wikipedia as an author and no trained (international) law expert. I will give it a bit more time and more opinions, before deleting info here.. Hannsg.logitech (talk) 12:21, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual error / "accepting any application for incorporation into Germany" 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: The section dealing with this is pro-Russian viewpoint only and is totally unbalanced, this section should give a quick view of the state-of-play. The details added and only relevant to why this is viewed, by Russians as a promise made and broken, these opinions/discussions should be in the main article only and balanced i.e. in the main, refuted there. ThoughtsThe Original Filfi (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastwood expanding of this article 

message: This sentence is at the end of the article and links toward the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation signed in Paris, France.
Where on earth can an agreement of the sort be infered from this text? Is it this part "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents"? Because it sounds like a bit of stretch. JBKeita (talk) 17:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "In 1997, NATO and Russia signed a treaty stating that each country had a sovereign right to seek alliances." 

message: Should the article also mention the addendum to the treaty that allowed NATO forces to cross the Cold War line?
--Jo1971 (talk) 16:23, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This should definitely be part of the article. 2A04:EE41:3:12EA:ED9E:8301:D422:7E47 (talk) 23:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addendum that allowed NATO forces to cross the Cold War line 

message: This section is based on an article in the newspaper Junge Welt which is far-left and described by German authorities as "hostile to the constitutional order". I have doubts if this source is compatible with Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Therefore, I would suggest to remove this section unless somebody provides a better source. --Jo1971 (talk) 16:42, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claimed German violations 

message: An editor, user:JusticeForce, has made an issue of the following sentence with a detailed explanation of when a treaty takes effect Germany also agreed to sign a separate treaty with Poland reaffirming the present common border, binding under international law, effectively relinquishing these territories to Poland. This was done on 14 November 1990, with the signing of the German–Polish Border Treaty. I reverted his change saying there was nothing wrong with the sentence as it was. Taking umbrage he started an edit war. The date here, 14 November 1990, refers to when Germany signed the treaty, not to when it took effect. This makes the editor's explanation interesting and correct but not relevant: he is wp:forking. Another concern is he had changed the sentence that was referenced. I cannot read the source but I assume, in good faith, that it confirms what the article says. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adament new editor and treaty dates