Talk:Twelve Days of Christmas

message: What on earth is a "secular Christan"???138.163.0.42 (talk) 17:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Secular

message: I am removing for the Viking reference since it appears less than scholarly.  Even the cited paragraph is weakly worded "Their Midwinter Feast lasted at least twelve days," and fails to address the dating used for both Epiphany and Christmas by theologians in the middle-east in the 4th through 6th century (the period of time when Christmas became formalized) who had no extended contact with vikings. Nickjost (talk) 03:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viking Reference 

message: Boxing day isn't always the 26th. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Boxing+Day  It's the first weekday...as still observed when the British Parliament announce the bank holiday ... which is never on the weekend. 91.125.76.8 (talk) 03:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another factual correction

message: I've just been wondering, is everything in the pear tree, or is the partridge alone?  (similarly is the ham green in "green eggs and ham"?--CallmeNiel 03:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, unless it the old song was intended to conjure absurd images, and it doesn't seem to have that tone, the swimming swans, dancing ladies, drummers, pipers, lords, and so forth are not all up a tree. With Dr. Seuss, a humorously absurd interpretation is much less out of place, so who knows. Jonathunder 19:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, our article on Green Eggs and Ham indicates yes. Jonathunder 19:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: all in a pear tree?

message: I believe the Christmas World link is broken, although that might just be temporary, or limited to me only.
*Me too. Color it GONE. Wahkeenah 20:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Broken link?

message: My earlier remarks vanished due to an edit conflict, and I don't know if I feel up to repeating all of it.
And another one.  For heaven's sake, can't I get this in here without a conflict?
The notes for GalaazV's most recent edit weren't added correctly -- see Wikipedia:Footnotes -- so I'm left with the choice to either clean it up or revert. So you can see what I did.
A reader coming to this article wondering what the song is about isn't particularly interested in an esoteric interpretation of the time of year, especially one that seems to be the invention of a single obscure writer 40 years ago.  This is not useful information. It's POV pushing. (See, for example, the remark GalaazV added when he wrote Corinne Heline . A "tribute"? Are we supposed to expect an NPOV bio after that?) The festival in question is centuries old, and the mystical/new age/zodiacal overlay applied by a mid-20th century writer could only reasonably be considered relevant if it had achieved widespread recognition. Despite the assertion of "thousands", there are hundreds of millions who never heard of it, and would reject it if they did. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I understant you point of view (it does not mean I fully agree with it). Anyway, I am not here to cause any edit war or have any unpleseant discussion and less even about a subject as sublime as this one. Regards, and merry Christmas. --GalaazV 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Is this a mainstream view or a fringe view? If it's the former, find others who agree and we should discuss it. If not, :WP:UNDUE would apply. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:06, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esotericism 

message: This article does not have a Adequate amount of information. All this shows is subjects about the song and such. This article does not even straightly have to do with the actual Twelve Days of Christmas.
It would be nice if there were pictures of the things from the twelve days of Christmas, especially since Wiki doesnt seem to have pictures of all the things in its current articles- eg French Hens- none of the French varieties of chicken listed have any pictures.  
Regarding the above remark, there is a seperate article about the days see further up the talk page
IceDragon64 22:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revise Article

message: This piece of internet humour referenced in the article as "authors unknown" was actually by John Julius Norwich; it's given a very brief mention on his page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Julius_Norwich
It's available in book form from amazon - the description there should be supporting evidence enough ;)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Twelve-Days-Christmas-Correspondence/dp/038541028X
87.113.31.198 23:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 12 thank-you notes of Christmas 

message: I can't find any information on the language in this song. In particular, I am wondering about the "a-..." as in "a-swimming" "a-milking" etc. Is that just in this song? Or was that a typical way of speaking/writing/singing for the time that rhyme/song was written? (1780)
Does anyone have any information/links about the language of this song? Cheers.
Dailyenglish 10:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  language of this song 

message: i thought it was ten lords a-marching, not leaping
especially since it seems to be more fitting for lords
   --Ahlee 9:15, 14, December 2006
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ahlee123 (talk • contribs) 05:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ten lords 

message: As part of a NHS campaign for safe sex, in some secondary schools of East Riding of Yorkshire, at least, teachers had to play to their students a song called The Twelve STIs of Christmas. The lyrics follow almost the same pattern with exception of the last line of each verse that changes each time. They are:
On the first day of Christmas, my true love gave to me
A bug that made it hard to pee
On the second day of Christmas,...
And a chance of infertility
On the third day of Christmas,...
And my testicles are sore and lumpy
On the fourth day of Christmas,...
And a discharge that was hourly
On the fifth day of Christmas,...
And a possibility of HIV
On the sixth day of Christmas,...
And an infection that was urinary
On the seventh day of Christmas,...
And a visit to the surgery
On the eighth day of Christmas,...
And my groin itches constantly
On the nineth day of Christmas,...
And sores that spread anally
On the tenth day of Christmas,...
Wearing pants with some difficulties
On the eleventh day of Christmas,...
And I no longer feel horny
On the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me
Dose of the crabs
Pelvic inflammatory disease
Scabies
Genital warts
Trichomoniasis
Hepatitis
Pubic lice
Gonorrhoea
Genital herpes
Syphilis
Chlamydia
And no one will make love to me
83.100.255.203 11:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was back in the 1970s a New Mexican version of this song, substituting various NM related item instead of the partridges, et al. It received some airplay on KOB (now KKOB), but all I can remember of it is a phrase about "ristras swinging", which is think was the substitute for "turtle doves" but I am not sure. Google search on those two words reveals nothing. Anybody here know about this? Wschart 17:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On Thursday, 28 December 2006, I saw an advertisement for the TV show "My Boys" that was a parody of the Twelve Days of Christmas. PlaysInPeoria 04:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  One more parody 

message: It might be fun making a collage for this article from the free pictures on commons? Perhaps a pyramid showing 12 of the same image of a drummer, 11 pipers, etc. --Astrokey44 10:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collage 

message: Well, well - what a fount of all knowledge Wikipedia is. I was just wondering about the "pear tree/perdrix" near-homophone, and there it is in Wikipedia. It even works with the article, "une" being pronounced as two syllables (/ynə/)in poetry and songs and sounding very similar to "in a". Excellent!
Could someone give an accurate rendering of the pronunciation, please? The French is pronounced /pɛʀdʀi/, and that, Anglicised, would become /pɛrˈdriː/, which is identical to a US pronunciation of "pear tree", but with /d/ for /t/ (which flapping cannot account for, as the /t/ is not intervocalic).
The pronunciation in the article is ad hoc and therefore unhelpful. Currently, it can easily be read as "per" as in "per annum", which I doubt is the intended pronunciation, but I don't know this for sure, so I have not changed it. An IPA transcription would make it clear what the pronunciation is. — Paul G 07:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  perdrix 

message: I was told that this song originated when for a long period of time in England (don't remember when) Catholicism was illegal, so this song was made as a secret code of basic Catholic teachings.  If this is true, shouldn't it be in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.129.247.128 (talk) 01:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wait a minute, wait a minute... 

message: Ends up that was in the article. <=P  But maybe it should be in the origin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.129.247.128 (talk) 01:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oh, wait, sorry! 

message: Suggestions for future edits:
Iona and Peter Opie (in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, as I recall) reported that the Twelve Days of Christmas originated in France.
The version with "colly birds" predates "calling birds," which suggests that Biblical interpretations of the verse are incorrect, or at least much later in origin.
The "five gold rings" refers to ring-necked pheasants; the first seven verses all refer to birds [Opie]. This fact changes the total number of bird-related gifts as mentioned in the article.
PlaysInPeoria 17:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, I opened the talk page up to point this out, but you got there before me. You are quite correct: the number of birds should be 224. (Excluding the gold rings, it's 184, not 194 as the article currently claims.) Anyone want to edit this in, or shall I? 84.70.114.68 16:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of Song; Colly Birds; Gold Rings 

message: "The meanings attached to the gifts are common to both Catholic and Protestant theology" -- not so. Protestants then, and now, do not accept that there are seven sacraments.
81.6.227.170 17:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secret Catholic Pedagogy 

message: "In Latin America the end of the Twelve Days of Christmas and Epiphany is the beginning of another religious-based season which has meshed with secular and pagan celebrations over time: That being "Carnaval" (or "Carnival") season, which concludes, in turn, on Mardi Gras Day."
This is also the case in Venice, New Orleans, etc...
136.165.131.0 (talk) 18:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why limit Carnival to Latin America?

message: James Boswell (the friend of Dr Samuel Johnson) kept a diary during his stay in London for a few months during 1762/63 (published as Boswell's London Diary).  He says in the diary entry for 6th January that it is Twelfth Day and mentions the merry-making tradition.  However it is clear that this was new to him, as a Scot, and that the tradition didn't exist in Scotland.  This is first-hand evidence that 12th Day is 6th Jan.Sionthomas (talk) 10:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  12th Day 

message: I wrote this great little play for the holidays and haveseen no discussion of it's removal here.
I was hoping someone would place it here for me.
It seems to me the song is rather old and this operetta is the newest thing in many years.
It is a lovely performance of the holiday tune and haveing wrote it I am naturally charged with letting others know it exists.
So far they are against it because I wrote it.
I think th epope was here when I placed it on the page and it was there for a while..
I'd like to see it returned but since everything i write is atacked perhaps someone else could do it.
Tim
PS where is mention of the song?  
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Timothy Sheridan (talk • contribs) 21:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not on the article because it's not notable. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for self-promotion. OhNoitsJamie Talk 22:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 12 days of Christmas Home Comming

message: It is not true that what remains constant everywhere is the celebration of the birth of Jesus on the night of the 25th. In Germany and Austria, the celebration is on the night of the 24th and the following morning of the 25th. Presents are given at night on the 24th, the "holy night" (which is what the Austrian song refers to: "Silent night, holy night ..."). Hence I deleted it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.250.89.152 (talk) 10:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Not true ...

message: Should there be a section discussing that (at least in the US) a lot of people think the 12 days of Christmas are the 12 days before Christmas, not after?  I think this is because stores will have "12 days of Christmas" sales before Christmas, and TV stations will have similar movie marathons.  I'd add it in, but after a quick bit of Googling, I couldn't find a good source.74.66.229.30 (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: American Commercialization and Wrong Dates

message: Since it is no longer about the song, this article should be moved to "Twelve days of Christmas". There is no reason to capialize "days".  12:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is customary to capitalise the formal titles of feasts, cf. "Christmas Day". The question would be whether this is a formal title for a festive period, the Twelve Days of Christmas, or just a common descriptive phrase, the twelve days of Christmas. I think the article treats it as a quasi-formal title, and thus the capitals would still be appropriate. Mooncow (talk) 03:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename 

message: An anonymous editor inserted some WP:OR proposing that the twelve days of Christmas had something to do with change between Julian and Gregorian calendars. I wrote the following on the user's talk page.
:You also added some original research to the article Twelve Days of Christmas. The problems with your idea are
:# You don't actually explain it other than stating that the English-speaking world changed from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar in September of 1752. Since Christmas has been celebrated in December since the fourth century, I can't see how that could affect the change.
:# The twelve days of Christmas are celebrated between Christmas Eve and Epiphany. The date of these two religious celebrations were not affected by the change in calendar and are twelve days apart in both calendar systems.
:# The celebration of the twelve days of Christmas goes back to before the middle ages which again predates the change of calendar system.
:Unless there's more information that you have to offer, there's no grounds for your theory. Thanks.
I reverted the change. The fact that same editor performed an edit test on the talk page also leaves me scratching my head. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent addition of information

message: I had a bit of an epiphany myself recently regarding this song.  I have been able to find no information to substantiate my idea as yet (thus, no cites or refs, this is an original thought).  My pose is this: that the 12 days of Christmas actually happened.  That is, that the song describes an actual event, and was created specifically for said event; in that by the twelth day, the recipient had actually recieved or viewed all of the items mentioned (assuming an original French variation of the contents) and that the attendees of the event would have heard the entire song, one verse having been added each day.  Alas, as stated, I have yet been unable to locate any historical reference that would verify this.  However, it seems that such an event would be possible, if not likely, among the European upper classes in or around the 18th century.  
I feel that the catechism thing, while viable, is not the original source, but merely an example of some member of the Church attempting to add religious significance to something that originally had little to do with Christianity, as so often occurs (like Christmas itself, or Easter, and so on).  On the other hand, it could just as easily have evolved as a childrens' sing-song or be an actual love song (i.e.: "If I could, I would give you the world.", etc.), or something like that, but I would love to find some historical tidbit that might back up my idea.
I would gladly welcome any input, but would appreciate if such input is limited to information that either lends credence to my idea, or outright disproves it.  Thanks.  SanPecador (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That this actually happened is not likely. It might make sense if it were recorded by an artist, however since it became a common song sung by many makes it unlikely. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible alternative origin? 

message: I've tagged this (12th Night holiday) article as NPOV and added some sources to Talk:Twelfth Night (holiday) about whether it is on the 5th or the 6th (the answer is both). Here's what I posted there:
There are quite a few.. The Great Comedies and Tragedies (Wordsworth Classics of World Literature) (Paperback) By (author) William Shakespeare, Introduction by Judith Buchanan, Introduction by Emma Smith, "The title of Twelfth Night calls to mind the festivities traditionally held on 6 January, the twelfth night after Christmas."
Twelfth Night edited by Rex Gibson, Anthony Partington, Richard Spencer, Vicki Wienand, Richard Andrews, Cambridge University Press, "In Elizabethan times, the twelve days after Christmas, up to Twelfth Night on 6 January (Epiphany), were traditionally a period of holiday and festival."
On the other hand, Encyclopedia of Tudor England, Volume 1 says "In England, the Christmas season extended from Christmas Eve to Epiphany (the celebration of the visit of the Wise Men to the infant Jesus) on 6 January. Epiphany was also called Twelfth Day. for it was the 12th day after Christmas, and thus the last day of the 12-day Christmas season. In the Middle Ages, Twelfth Night, the eve of Epiphany, had been the most important midwinter celebration, but by Tudor times. 25 December. Christmas Day itself,".
And making the variation explicit, "In 567 the Council of tours proclaimed that the entire period between Christmas and Epiphany should be considered part of the celebration, creating what became known as the twelve days of Christmas, or what the English called Christmastide. On the last of the twelve days, called Twelfth Night, various cultures developed a wide range of additional special festivities. The variation extends even to the issue of how to count the days. If Christmas Day is the first of the twelve days, then Twelfth Night would be on January 5, the eve of Epiphany. If December 26, the day after Christmas, is the first day, then Twelfth Night falls on January 6, the evening of Epiphany itself." Christmas: A Candid History
By Bruce David Forbes, University of California Press. Dougweller (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Counting really doesn't help here at all when we have clearly reliable sources discussing the issue. Dougweller (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Twelfth Night (holiday)]] 

message: The pagan/astrological roots of this festival are missing from this article. Eg. See "Viking reference" above. The festival was from solstice to perihelion.
See --> https://atlanticreligion.com/2014/12/31/solar-origins-of-the-twelve-days-of-christmas-and-christianity/
: But that's a blog. Do you have any reliable sources to support the claim? Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:54, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pagan roots