Talk:Large-group awareness training/Archive 2

message: In a transparent bit of real-world procrastination, I'm going to make another go of this by reintroducing this section "where angels fear to tread." Rorybowman 17:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The citation you added does not mention LGATs at all, as far as I can tell.  There are plenty more sources of criticism, I will add some later.  Smee 17:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Smee! I had to do a *little* bit of my paying job today... 8^) I've added a few and separated the paragraph so it doesn't look as if a reference to one sentence was to the entire paragraph. Rorybowman 23:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms Section 2007-01-18 

message: I'm new to this page, thus not burdened by previous history. (Points separated to clarify discussion):
*Wow, is this page unbalanced. All it does is present the DISCREDITED theories of Singer as if they are standard knowledge, credited theories in modern psychology.  I am not a psychologist, but am a happy, satisfied customer of WEA's The Forum, and am surprised that this page is entirely negative. Ratagonia 18:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unbalanced, and criticism

message: *The term "Large Group Awareness Training" itself was not rejected as a result of the DIMPAC report, and is in fact still used by Scientists, Academicians, and Psychologists to this day.  Smee 03:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The term "Large Group Awareness Training" 

message: I have obtained a printed copy of the 1982 paper by Finkelstein, Wenegrat and Yalom which I have read through once but will go through again later. Basically this paper notes the existence of such trainings and how they have fallen outside of psychological oversight for a variety of reasons (including the disdain that LGAT worldview has for positivistic science). Noting that the Erhard Seminars Training ("Est") is the main training to have been studied, the article is largely a summary of such a training with discussions of how that training might be understood within a standard psychological model. The literature on "psychiatric casualties" among Est trainees is found to be inconclusive and anecdotal, with the remainder of the paper going on to compare Est to behaviour therapy, group psychotherapy and existential psychotherapy. The general conclusion regarding the state of the psychological literature at the time was that 1982 peer-reviewed lit on Est was similar to the "early literature on encouter groups and other vehicles of the human potential movement." Positive testimony from LGAT participants seems consistent with "nonspecific effects of expectancy and response sets." In other words, people expected to a get a lot from an expensive training and report that they did. This may be a polite way of saying the whole industry is built on a placebo. Certainly this article does not have such a pithy and quotable summary as DIMPAC. Alas. More later. Rorybowman 18:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-DIMPAC and Peer-Reviewed Literature 

message: Did the author who originally wrote this section intend to mean that part of the definition of, or requirements to be classified as, a Large Group Awareness Training group is that it includes a financial pyramid scheme? If so, then the entire group of articles related to Large Group Awareness Training may need to be re-thought, as many, if not most, of the targeted organizations have nothing to do with anything related to a financial pyramid. If 'financial pyramid' is not related directly to the LGAT label, then it should not be referenced or included in this article. Lsi john 20:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Financial Pyramid Schemes

message: *We cannot use excerpts of the Yankelovich study at Landmark Education's corporate Web site.  We must have either the full study, or a citation of a reputable journal where the study was published.  Otherwise, it is not a WP:RS.  Removed.  Smee 21:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And if I violate a wiki rule, then help me correct my edit, and dont simply delete or revert it. Allow me the opportunity to correct my own mistakes. Thanks. Lsi john 23:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: John, I pulled the redundant line and pruned the other; "himself personally" in unnecessary - it is his book, who else?; "one of the most proclaimed LGATS" would need a cite; and page numbers should go in the ref, not inline in the article. --Justanother 03:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: tkx. To clarify my comments.. making a 'correction' is not the same as enmasse deletion due to missing facts. In that particular case, I realized it was there twice and was hoping someone else would decide which place was more appropriate.Lsi john 03:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The general idea is that unsourced "facts" do not go in the encyclopedia. I made a judgement call that you would not likely have a ready source for "most proclaimed". When you do then put it back. I apologize if I was wrong about that. One of the very most important policies here is WP:BOLD. You just build the articles, not talk and talk about it unless there is a problem; then you talk it out and go back to building the article. --Justanother 03:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citing from a corporate web site 

message: Discuss here, please. The DIMPAC is extensively discussed above. The marginal use of it included the disclaimers that Smee summarily removed. No disclaimers, then no use of it. Skepic's dictionary? Pu-leesse. Unacceptable source. --Justanother 22:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-RS "History" 

message: Both of the paragraphs listed in this section are problematic.
The first paragraph introduces 'new' verbage and requirements, specifically 'term of seminar', which is inappropriate here. Either the reference cites LGATs or it cites 'programs which tend to last at least four days and usually five'. If LGATs then the 'timeframe' is irrelevant. If it cites 'timeframe' then the entire reference is irrelevant in this article.
The second paragraph seems to be a orphan and certainly not belonging to this particular section.
I propose that someone familiar with both of these citations make an appropriate edit, lest they both be challenged and deleted as irrelevant or inappropriate in their current form. Lsi john 03:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see my above comment. --Justanother 03:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples of LGATs

message: Justanother, I left those in for clarification.
Allegedly secretive and expensive, these were criticized as financial pyramid schemes, brainwashing or irresponsible, unlicensed psychotherapy, marketed as "educational" to avoid issues of licensing and malpractice. 
Because it could be a poorly worded paragraph that intended to say that Singer alleged that they were secret financial pyramids and the original author intended to use the same 'fact' reference. If its poorly worded, it should be re-written to make the claim clearly, if its citing unreferenced facts, then it should be removed.Lsi john 03:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would need to check but suspect that this paragraph was mine. Right now this term is hottest on Rick Ross' "cult education forum" where the term is explicitly NOT well-defined and the criticisms come from a variety of places in the form of comments in a wide variety of discussion boards. If Mr. Ross could keep his web site up, it would be simpler to cite individual references, but the three strands occur over and over. The problem with the constant "define/cite or remove" stuff  within this article is that the term is NOT used precisely and critics are NOT cogent. The most seminal bits are the ones I have chosen from Finkelstein and Singer, but Ross is the one who currently pumps up the term for his own self-importance, quite divorced from its origins in peer-reviewed social science. Anyone who is familiar with the literature can clearly see that these three threads of criticism are constant ones, almost always in relation to Landmark Education and EST. Finding four or five random cranks on a message board who assert them is a fricking waste of time and only serves to provide more credibility and google-hits to Ross' anti-cult business, pumping him up. Strictly defined, the term clearly refers to a small handful of trainings such as EST, Actualizations, Landmark, etcetera, but this is not the way the anticult camp uses it. Seriously, folks, but this article is making my work over on fox hunting seem simple. What we have is a term from social science grabbed by a few marginal actors and thrown over for the use of semi-literate zealots. It has almost no credibility or relevance whatsoever within any legal or scientific community. EST is dead, Landmark is a joke and Rick Ross is a high-school graduate who has heavily milked a well-meaning schtick. I humbly submit that his paragraph is about as cogent as it gets. Rorybowman 18:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Singer Quote/reference

message: John, hope you do not mind the "crash course". I am playing devil's advocate a bit with you but I am also acting as advocate for the project. You Definition section looks like you wrote it off the top of your head. Please do not try to fill a vacuum with WP:OR; either find WP:RS to fill it with or leave it emprty. That is important. --Justanother 04:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No offense taken at all. If a blank section is better, then that is acceptable, however a definition section should be present, as this is a TERM and should be DEFINED. Obviously I wrote it and am open to suggestions for improvement. Would it be more appropriate to 'suggest' new sections in discussion prior to introducing them into the article? Lsi john 04:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm a bit unclear on how you would 'cite' something that is factually absent. If LGAT is to remain a legitimate article on wiki, and further if it has no clealy stated and concise scientific definition, what is invalid about a statement which makes that claim. As you know, mathmatically you would disprove this by providing 1 single fact which refutes the claim. In this case, a clear and concise scientific definition. Lsi john 04:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No ,the "suggest" violates WP:BOLD. What you need to do is either find a good definition in RS or find a mention in RS that no definition exists; otherwise that bit you are itching to write cannot see the light of day. That is something we have to get used to here! Itches ya can't scratch. --Justanother 04:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: definition

message: *I can see that there is quite a good deal of spin going on here with this article, and that even if I attempt to introduce information from scholarly academic journals the material will be spun in some way or not stay in the article too long.  Therefore, I am going to take this article off of my watchlist and take a break from it for a while.  Suffice it to say, what some individuals are trying to do with this article - does not reflect consensus among academicians, psychiatrists and psychologists - according to material published in reputable secondary sources and academic journal articles.  Have fun with all your editing, I'm off to concentrate on other venues and find citations to create other interesting new articles.  Later, Smee 05:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Have fun y'all 

message: I'm very impressed with the progress made on this article in the last 24 hours.  It went from crap POV-pushing to a respectable encyclopedic article.  Good work, everyone. Ratagonia 17:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wow, much progress made

message: I would argue that the assertion that the "no original research" policy is not violated by noting how the term "LGAT" has been adopted and extended by anticult activists, using the standard "google test" heuristic on the phrase "large group awareness training." In such a test on 4/9/07 the top hits included such sites as csj.org, ex-cult.org, cultintervention.com, apologeticsindex.org, rickross.com and caic.org.au. Not exactly the APA. Singer's active embrace of the anti-cult movement after the DIMPAC spanking also seem worth noting. Singer may have begun in the APA but at the end of her life she had clearly thrown in with the anticult folks. Rorybowman 06:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Embrace and Extension of Term by Anticult Movement