Talk:SABRE (rocket engine)

message: Thanks for the heads up WolfKeeper. I have read the articles in question and I think the article really reflects the actual system much better now.
I do find it interesting that dragging around "dead" engines for much of the flight profile still results in massively better performance overall. But I suppose that should not be expected, after all, we have reheat/afterburners.
Maury 22:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not going to liquify the air.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 22:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To clarify, the reason for this is that to liquefy the air requires a much larger energy investment, which means a much higher fuel flow that can't actually be burned usefully. Simply cooling the air to very low temperature provides a large reduction in energy for compression, as well as size of compression equipment (due to denser air). Both of these together hugely reduce the engine weight, even with the precooler adding just over a tonne.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.21.4 (talk) 02:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Looking very good now

message: http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/sabre.html
the cycle show a conventional turbojet mode and a rocket mode. there is no direct air to chamber bypass which is what a ramjet is. rather air either enter the turbo or bypass the entire engine in the 3d model. another unusual point is that 'ramjet' was not mentioned once on the official site. therefore is the details on this article correct? no source appears to be given. Akinkhoo (talk) 02:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The diagram as it says, is a simplified cycle. If you read the papers they do describe it- the problem is that the amount of hydrogen you need to boil off to cool the air down is too much to burn in the main engine, and they use a ramjet for that.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 03:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  no sign of ramjet. 

message: *) What are the failure scenarios for the pre-cooler?  How gracefully/gracelessly will the engine fail?
*) Is there a critical point in the mode switch where the rocket mode (and the various cycles that are meant to sustain propellant transport within the system) might not "bite"? Again, what is the failure scenario?
*)Dry Ice formation, the air has carbon dioxide in it and with the proposed temperature in the precooler, it seems like dry ice would form, causing issues with the compressor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by B787 300 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible cons? 

message: As I understand it, the SABRE does not liquefy the air. It uses either air that has been cooled to -150°C or it's own internal LOX. The included quote is outdated and inaccurate on multiple points. It should be removed and just say that the tests have been completed.
The Sabre engine "relies on a heat exchanger capable of cooling incoming air to −140 °C (−220 °F), to provide liquid oxygen (LOX) for mixing with hydrogen to provide jet thrust during atmospheric flight before switching to tanked LOX when in space." The autumn 2011 test program will validate that the critical heat exchanger technology can perform as needed for the engine to obtain adequate oxygen from the atmosphere to support the low-altitude, high-performance operation.[15]  98.203.242.147 (talk) 10:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote originates from the (14) reference, written by Dan Thisdell. A search of his aeospace technical credentials shows that he has none, and is focussed on the business/management side of things. Clearly he didn't understand what he was reading. No practical engine in the world would try to liquify air and then extract the O2 for LOX and dump the remaining 4/5ths N2. The quote, and even the entire reference should be removed from the article and footnotes. It's not enough to have approved publications for reference, their authors should also have relevant experience and expertise in the field. JohndanR (talk) 16:12, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's have some fact checking

message: Much of this and associated articles seem to be based upon recycling of REL marketing releases and also media articles written by people with no or dubious specific expertise or indeed level of scepticism. Partisan claims of functional capability are presented as fact although they have yet to be established as fact by open scientific peer review or field testing by impartial experts. This may perhaps in part be unavoidable given the proprietary nature of SABRE technology but extraordinary claims require a higher level of proof other than simply accepting company claims to have developed new anti frosting technology which they cannot disclose to the public because it is "secret". It seems unlikely that the difficult, even intractable, problem of avoiding frosting whilst using cryogenic cooling
has somehow been solved, solved by a mysterious secret apparatus or process about which they cannot tell us the details for some reason or another, a mysterious secret apparatus or process the details of which cannot even be revealed to the protections of the patent system for fear of something or other. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and it seems at this stage of not relying upon experts or peer-reviewed science but rather upon dubious media and corporate sources and vague implications of ESA review that this level of proof has not been acquired and that the skylon sabre project may be an upmarket technology financing scam complete with semi-working prototypes. Now it may be possible or even probable that REL has developed a technology or process solution to frosting that they are keeping secret for a legitimate reason such as military secrecy but at this current stage of proof such claims by commercial interests should be treated as the claims that they are rather than as fact and this should be reflected in the article. Theo Pardilla (talk) 08:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The frost issue solving does require independent confirmation - a press release from the company website is not enough. So I just added that. However, slander that the projects could be "financing scam" has no place on Wikipedia talk pages, given the amount of referencable government space agency oversight, readily available BEFORE Pardilla made that comment.
On a different note, a technical lecture by Alan Bond reveals this about Skylon :
*helium at 1180 Kelvin max temperature - 33min
*precooler tubes 0.88mm bore diameter, tube wall thickness 30 microns heat exchanger made of Inconel 718 - 38min
*local crossflow, overall counterflow in heat exchanger
TGCP (talk) 20:43, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  The way he phrased it is not slander and in fact any intelligent person with a good grounding in aerospace technology will have had similar misgivings.89.168.178.139 (talk) 15:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but he has no proof that it is a financing scam and as such does count as slander. The idea is to report facts, it is not a fact that it is a scam and it is not a fact that they have solved the frosting. 109.153.102.95 (talk) 15:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  He said "it may be a scam" - how is that slander? I think that the engineering guys involved in SABR genuinely want to pull it off, but I'm not so sure about their CFO...137.205.183.114 (talk) 10:58, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Thank you. It is an indirect fact that frosting has not been solved in flight, as tests were done on ground. However it is a fact, and has been for several days before 5 December, that ESA managed and approved the precooler test results. However again, this article does rely heavily on primary sources and steps should be taken to solidify it - although this has been discussed before. TGCP (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Interview with ESA's Mark Ford - in April, before test; could show intentions of test. May or may not be relevant for refs. TGCP (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I would note that the precooling frost issue has been solved in a confirmable manner previously, by methanol injection into the airflow prior to the precooler, which is a known antifreeze agent. This was used on Japan's ATREX precooled turbojet. It is unlikely SABRE uses this mechanism specifically, but similar chemical methods may be employed, perhaps as simple as an antifreeze coating layed onto the inconel tubing. The fact that "the problem has not been solved" doesn't mean we have no idea how to solve it - just that no-one has yet made a practical implementation. We also know that with how much this project will cost, it is highly unlikely the ESA would be giving their approval if they had not seen the antifreeze mechanism explained and proven. 31.205.21.4 (talk) 02:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whilst it is helpful to be aware of these existing technical methods I am yet to be convinced. Speculating on the methods, professionalism, expertise, integrity, processes, staff, project management, auditing or other internal processes within the ESA generally, much less the single point of 'likelihood' about this specific project is simply an appeal to authority. As we know almost nothing about the ESA's specific detailed relation to this project such speculations are just that, speculations at best or wishful thinking.Theo Pardilla (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

text: REL do intend to use methanol, as did Atrex. This list of patents may be relevant to show intentions, but is not a source for feasibility. TGCP (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Assertion checking and scientific method

message: As the craft ascends and the outside air pressure drops, more and more air is passed into the compressor as the effectiveness of the ram compression drops.
Does that sentence make any sense?WithGLEE (talk) 21:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Air pressure drops ... more air passed into compressor 

message: Is there anything in the sources which explains why it is banana shaped Petecarney (talk) 06:40, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: something like this "the vehicle flies at 7 degrees angle of attack to create lift, so the intake is pointed down so it points directly into the air stream, and the nozzle needs to angle into the center of mass since it's mounted below the center of mass, and that also is at 7 degrees, the resulting shape looks like a banana, but it's for sound reasons."  from a comment from Skyhawk551 on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G-HPHNrrLQ  Matt Whyndham (talk) 10:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why banana shape? 

message: It seems to me the article appears to have been written mostly around the SABRE 3 concept. More details are becoming available about the SABRE 4, some of which may already have made their way into the article. Some of the information understood about SABRE 3 (e.g. the common combustion chamber) is not believed to be correct for SABRE 4. How should we manage the transition? 80.90.193.161 (talk) 09:57, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Put in sub-headings for SABRE 3 and SABRE 4. Since you know the difference between the two, you're best placed to make the changes - so get too it! FOARP (talk) 10:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  SABRE 3 to SABRE 4 

message: I cannot find any information as to whether the £50 million funding from the UK government approved by the EU commission was in addition to the £60 million already announced or was the actual sum finally committed by the UK government. Anyone have anything on this? In the one case this means that the UK government will have committed £110 million to this project, in the other it will have committed only £50 million. FOARP (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  EU-approved funding 

message: I believe it somewhat misleading to compare the sabre engine to ramjet and scramjet engines as the latter are only suitable for atmospheric flight.
Parts of the article seem to be worded more like an advert or promotional for the sabre engine rather than statements of fact.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.199.163.151 (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparisons to ramjet/scramjet engines 

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message: Here we have a precooler that "cools air from 1000 degrees to -150 in fraction of a second."
Now, I have an air conditioner that struggles to cool a room full of air from 90°F to 80°F in one hour -- and consumes a lot of energy while doing so.
The SABRE somehow does much more cooling, much faster, on a much larger quantity of air.
Is it not therefore notable for being one of the greatest technology breakthroughs of all time?  Shouldn't the article point that out?  199.46.196.231 (talk) 20:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree you're welcome to edit the article to reflect this.Quantanew (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No, not unless there are reliable sources that actually make that claim. - BilCat (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  I noticed that before but did not think of it as "the greatest technology breakthroughs of all time".  I can't see how to mention that without a promotional tone or without a reliable third-party source that relates this to the expected thrust. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 16:24, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

text: A lot of time and energy are invested in liquefying and further chilling hydrogen before it is is stored in the tanks for the engine. This "stored cold" is used to cool the air. The breakthrough is the speed with which the heat exchanger is capable of moving the heat from the air to the helium (which is then cooled by the hydrogen), and that it can do so without icing up 82.22.197.128 (talk) 03:16, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

text: We still need a reliable source, preferably several high-quality sources, that actually claim it's one of the greatest technology breakthroughs, not just that "explain the works". - BilCat (talk) 17:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The article already states "SABRE dramatically cools the air from 1000 °C down to −150 °C [...]."  Yes, the subsystem is highly efficient and secret/patented, but not even the manufacturer claims that their cooler is the 'greatest technology breakthrough'.  That is YOUR perception and POV.  All articles should remain free of such sensational claims. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

text: Thanks Quantanew, that's what I was getting at.  Without sounding "promotional," there ought to be a way to convey how remarkable this technology is.  Although it's clear to me that this is "one of the greatest technology breakthroughs,"  I'm not advocating use of that particular phrase.  But merely using the word "dramatic" does not adequately convey what has been achieved.  - The IP formerly known as 199.46.196.231 199.46.249.145 (talk) 00:07, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We may talk about how "remarkable" this technology is when/if it gets to fly as described. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:21, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  One of the greatest technology breakthroughs? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: > The experimental device achieved heat exchange of almost 1 GW/m3
That would mean the Skylon Sabre pre-cooler is able to extinguish e.g. a nuclear submarine or icebreaker's fission power reactor without the use of control rods, as the active zone of such a reactor is smaller than 1m3 in volume and its max. thermal power output less than or equal to 1000MW. Considering that chemical (electron sphere based) reactions, including heat transfer are known to be magnitudes weaker than atomic nucleus based reactions, such a feat seems impossible per basic laws of physics! Extraordinary claims shall require extraordinary evidence and in such cases Wikipedia needs to make doubly sure about what it publishes. 94.21.160.231 (talk) 12:51, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This statement is not cited, however it appears to come from one of Mark Hempsell's papers (Progress on Skylon and SABRE). Funnily enough while it states a rate close to 1 GW/m3, the actual paper it references mentions that the heat sink test was closer to a power transfer of 2 GW/m3 (An Experimental Precooler for Airbreathing Rocket Engines). ChiZeroOne (talk) 16:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use common sense please. 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Oops. I made an incorrect conclusion based on faulty page view stats.  Schierbecker (talk) 02:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: SABRE (rocket engine) →  – Primary topic as indicated by page views. Schierbecker (talk) 04:04, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

text: *User:BarrelProof The rocket engine gets 90 times as many views as the computer program, which is only a partial title match. I've seen requested moves pass when the primary topic has only twice as many page views as the other topics. What would it take for you to support? Schierbecker (talk) 02:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *Are you seeing what I'm seeing? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

text: *That's Ess Ay Bee Arr Eee, yee landlubber! —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 18 June 2022