Talk:Omega-level mutant/Archive 2

message: I just wanted to check something. My browser has the current revision showing the "omega level" table in the "external links" section. Yet when I check the page code everything looks in place for it to render correctly in the right place.
Is it just my browser? If it's not, could someone who knows more about this please fix it? And for that matter, could whoever keeps putting Storm in as an Omega please stop, we've been through that particular debate a few times and BP #26 doesn't confirm her as one. Tim 01:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Someone added a bracket and it's all pretty again. Ta! Tim 18:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page messed up? 

message: The Dark Phoenix Saga involved an Omega mutant, Jean Grey hosting the Phoenix Force, which was refered to by the Shi'ar as "the nexus of all psionic energy which does, has, and ever will, exist in all realities of the multiverse. During its time as a sentient entity, it was known to possess the psyche of mortals (particularly those who happen to be telepaths) and thus amplify their psychic abilities to a cosmic (and in some cases, nearly incalculable) scale. Its primary form is that of a gigantic firebird."  In X-Men: Pheonix: End Song, the Shi'ar attempt to kill both Jean Grey and Quentin Quire as they are omega-level telepaths who might host the Phoenix Force.  In Uncanny X-Men #467, the Shi'ar kill most of Jean Grey's relatives in order to prevent another host for the Phoenix, but Rachel Grey survives.
In Phoenix endsong towards the end when jean grey is ressurected once again.The phoenix was inhabiting emma frost's body and jean grey drives the phoenix out with the phoenix's power's so i believe that once they transcend to omega and once the phoenix uses an omega's body as a host they automatically become bound to the phoenix force.
===Eternity===
Also, the comics read specifically that humanity will evolve into the cosmic being called Eternity (X-Men: Forever #6).  The Abstracts actually feared Phoenix and it's host, Jean Grey, when they encountered her on the astral plane.  All of the so-called "requirements" on the main article page are orginal research to a very high degree.  Very few of the statements of this article fall within what the comics actually depict and are chucked full of fanatic specualtion and original research.  Marvel Comics has never come out with ANY Omega-level mutant definition or has defined any other classification scheme in their publications.  I am simply shocked that this page has persisted so long on wikipedia, considering that there are no cited sources, no primary reference material, fan speculation and the use of original research throughout the article.  Wikipedia is not a blog and should not be used as one.  There are other sites, such as the Marvel Directory, which are wholly appropriate for this type of article listing. Either this article needs a healthy dose of neutral point of view and good writing, or it should be deleted. 63.249.119.38 05:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many see Phoenix as a cosmic entity that Omegas host, not become 

message: Also, the comics read specifically that humanity will evolve into the cosmic being called Eternity (X-Men: Forever #6).  The Abstracts actually feared Phoenix and it's host, Jean Grey, when they encountered her on the astral plane.  All of the so-called "requirements" on the main article page are orginal research to a very high degree.  Very few of the statements of this article fall within what the comics actually depict and are chucked full of fanatic specualtion and original research.  Marvel Comics has never come out with ANY Omega-level mutant definition or has defined any other classification scheme in their publications.  I am simply shocked that this page has persisted so long on wikipedia, considering that there are no cited sources, no primary reference material, fan speculation and the use of original research throughout the article.  Wikipedia is not a blog and should not be used as one.  There are other sites, such as the Marvel Directory, which are wholly appropriate for this type of article listing. Either this article needs a healthy dose of neutral point of view and good writing, or it should be deleted. 63.249.119.38 05:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eternity

message: Perhaps the various parties can bring into the article actual quotations from Marvel publication's source material as to who is precisely "Omega Level" and this should be the criteria of which the article is to be based upon. Netkinetic 01:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute over criteria for Omega-Level Mutant 

message: It seems that a requirement for an Omega is to be able to control matter on a sub-molecular scale. That's the main reason why Iceman is listed as an Omega. He can control water in all of its states (i.e., on the molecular level) and he was sometimes portrayed as being able to travel via the water molecules.
As far as Magneto is concerned, he controls magnetism - so does that mean he can control things on a molecular scale? Perhaps not. He controls metal via his magnetism, but I don't think he can shape metal on a molecular level. If he could, for instance, change steel into gold (which he may be able to, I don't know for sure), he would be, in my opinion, considered an Omega level mutant.
Professor X is a very powerful telepath, so is Emma. But they cannot control matter on a molecular scale, unlike Jene, who can, thanks to her telekenetic powers.
Minister Sinister also qualifies since he can basically be destroyed down to his molecular make up and still survive and, due to his intellect, has de facto control of many elements down to their molecular states.
Apocalypse, although in the same league as Professor X based on power, probably, cannot control things on molecular level without the help of others. He does have a malleable body, but I do not know if he can control it down to molecular level. If he can, than yes, he would probably be an Omega level.
Gambit would probably also be an Omega level mutant at his limit as the Sun, because, as Sun, Gambit could control matter just by thinking about it, i.e., he can make all types of matter explode just by thinking it. Normally, however, after being lobotomized by Sinister, he doesn't have that power. (18:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no set requirements to be Omega. It's all whether Marvel says you're in or out. and Magneto has REPEATEDLY been confirmed as an ALPHA. Not OMEGA.
(Response: From --Infobro 00:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, controlling or transmuting matter is not the definition of Omega mutant, what makes them one is the ability to transcend the limitations of physical existence. Iceman seems to be listed because his physical body is not vital to his survival, but we can't be sure yet because his own lack of ambition has prevented him from learning or pushing the limits of his powers. As for the rest, well, the term Omega Mutant is a recent invention, and right now it's the flavor-of-the week that all the writers want to play with (sort of like secondary mutations were a couple of years ago), so let's just wait till the fad burns out, and then try to clear up who's what. -- Noclevername 06:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requirement to be considered Omega 

message: How can there be factual accuracy about an entirely made-up subject?
There is certainly factual evidence about fictional subjects, much like writing a book report. They are aiming to support the omega-level theory with in-text evidence. Simple enough, but why try to crush comic fans?
:The factual accuracy tag is there because this is an article which is prone to proliferation of fancruft and speculation without any real basis in Marvel canon.--Rosicrucian 20:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That one was vandalism. He was going around and editing a fan character into a bunch of Marvel articles. I've removed it.--Rosicrucian 21:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Factual accuracy"? 

message: I'm bored so I'm going to make a list of all mutants (that I can think of) that have the potential to be Omega-level mutants. Feel free to contribute.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Opus Dei (talk • contribs) 04:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is just a revival of the deleted speculation list. It does not belong in this article.--Rosicrucian 13:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omega? 

message: I was rather hostile to Elixer above, since it seemed to be based on one comment.  Now I've heard the creator's intended him to manipulate all living matter and that new writers seem to be following that up.  That still seems marginally omega (he'd be useless on a lifeless planet, whereas most other omega's could still eat, dissolve or destroy it), but I'll concede his omegadom.
71.228.5.74 16:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accepting Elixer 

message: Shouldn't there be a section saying mutants who possibly could be Omega-level?
: There was one but people kept adding people they wanted to be Omega, not one's that could be.Jacobshaven3 09:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could be Omega-Level 

message: He probably doesn't belong on the list, as he only manifested Omega power levels due to Darwin, who was later seperated from him.--Rosicrucian 16:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vulcan 

message: As Chamber has only been sited as having the potential to be an Omega at this point, I don't feel he should be include in the list.  As previously shown threw editting in this article in the past, the potential to be an Omega does not mean the person is truely an Omega and consequently should not be included in the list.  In addition, if Chamber in a new physical incarnation of Apocalypse, while extrememly powereful, Apocalyse has been sited as not being at an Omega-level.  Simply put, my vote is to remove Chamber from this list.
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New Poster
Agreed Vulcan was serverly scrutinized and he was actually labelled an Omega Mutant 5 times, anywya as Apocalypse has been stated to only be an Alpha mutant I believe Chamber should not make it into the club."Potential" is not enough.
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New Poster
It is specifically stated in New Excalibur #9 by Ozymandius that Chamber is now an omega level mutant. Whether you beleive it or not, the writers and editors have agreed. Please stop removing him from the list.
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New Poster
Exact quotes from New Excalibur #9:
MI-13 guy: The energy signature is off the charts. Whoever told that kid he doesn't have powers, lied. Big time.
Peter Wisdom: Well, that's just lovely. Now I have a potential Omega-Class mutant running around out there...
I can't find any dialogue from Ozymandias on the subject and, as you can see the dialogue which we do have clearly states that Chamber is 'potential Omega-Class' i.e. they don't know for sure. 
However, it should also be noted that the scanning device used by the MI-13 guy reads 'MAX' and shows a power meter at full capacity. Other symbols on the device resemble the Greek letters and could possibly be α (alpha), β (beta) and ω (omega) in which case, it is reading Chamber as Omega. Although this is open to interpretation.
This is all we have to go on. Other posters will decide whether it is sufficient evidence.
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The thing about Chamber is that there's been a lot of evidence that points towards the idea - at least -  that he's phenominally powerful. GenX #1 showed his mutagenic aura as the most potentent Emplate had ever encountered, he rebuilt himself when his body was destroyed in an annual, he recharged a machine in that fantasy world thing... the list goes on. 
The thing is that it's all just suggestion at this point. Even the most recent developments in Excaliber just suggest a huge power increase. Nothing's ever actually established he *is* omega level and that's what this list should be. IMHO he probably is - at least as currently written - but until we get it *said*, he shouldn't he on the list.
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I think with Chamber and with everyone else, you have to consider who said that they were potentially an Omega-class mutant. If the character making the statement is not an expert (i.e., Toad or someone like that), than obviously it's a subjective statement. If, however, the character is a scientific genius and is known for being somewhat calm and understaded about things, then a character like this saying that someone was a potential Omega-mutant is basically saying that someone is an Omega-mutant (i.e., Reed Richards, Beast, SHIELD, Iron Man). (23:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chamber addition

message: the  criteria of  what is  to be considered omega level  seems to be  in contradiction. for example  the  definction of  Omega level mutants talks about  the experiements that the Celestrials performed on human race. thus shouldnt the   term Omega level mutant  also  cover evolutionary offshoots of the Human race.  For example  thease Include  The Eternals, Inhumans and Deviants. as they are all results of  artifical stimuli as are the  homo sapiens of the marvel universe.  havent charcters like the eternals  demonstrated abilitys that would  class them as  been omega level mutants. also as the term mutant in the marvel universe to describe people that have powers that baseline human beings dont  have.  thus  the term is not a scinetifc term but a sociological term and should not be treated in the same way as scientifc evidence. marvel comics have stated that all humanity is a form of mutation and thus the term of race is an old fastioned term that contradicts real scientific evidence. thus this  negates the " marvel has to declare a person an omega level mutant rule".  for example charcters that are inhuman or eternal are not going to consider themselves  MUTANTS or homo superor due to the sociologicsl framework of the marvel universe.  however this does not prevent them from been evolved to the point where they can host the Phoenix Force.--Dr noire 23:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Way too much speculation here. For the purposes of this article we have to consider Eternals, Deviants and Inhumans to be seperate races, albeit ones that can interbreed with humans. Your suggestion would make the article far too unmanageable.--Rosicrucian 18:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celestials 

message: As a collective mind, they have serious potential (noted by Xavier, Beast, Emma Frost and others) and should be on a list to watch out for in the future.  In Phoenix Endsong #5 it was implied that they may be hosting some of the Phoenix force.
*Hosting the Phoenix Force and accessing the Phoenix Force (like Jean does, hence why she is an Omega) are two different things.  Endsong is also not part of main timeline continuity.
Endsong is part of the main continuity.
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I'm thinking someone should design a picture of all the known Omegas...that way the Jean Grey picture won't seem so out of place.
:They're licensed trademarks of Marvel.  It'd be difficult to argue fair use. --Newt ΨΦ 20:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stepford Cuckoos 

message: Magneto is an Omega-level mutant.  In New X-Men issue #56, the Sentinel states on page 3, "Mutant designate: Magneto.  Classification:  Omega-level threat."
:Actually that meant he was a huge threat because of his control over magnetism not because he's an omega-level mutant.
But the comic does not state that he is a "huge" threat; the word choice of "omega-level" as the classification designated by the Sentinel is far too particular to shrug off as being irrelevant.
:Your assumption that "omega-level threat" is the same as "omega-level mutant" is independent analysis however, which makes it original research.  --NewtΨΦ 17:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magneto 

message: IIRC Gambit was confirmed an Omega level mutant in his solo series back in the late 90s!! Am I thinking wrong? I'm almost positive.
He has Omega level capability, that's true - which he demonstrated as the Sun (i.e., being able to destroy anything with just a thought) in an ulternate universe. However, most mutants can be said to have Omega level capability if their powers are taken to their logical conclusions. The focus remains on the 616 universe however. (RossF18 03:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What u talking about? read comics before talking about that. gambit is also omega level at 616 universe. Look at "Gambit v.3 #24" KvaZaR 18:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Why 616 though? Mary-Jane Watson is listed as LGBT, but she only is a lesbian in an Exiles reality. Iceman hasn't reached his full potential, yet, he is included. ~ZytheTalk to me! 22:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Iceman is classified because his potential was shown when his body was taken over. The only reason he doens't have Omega level powers is because he holds himself back, not because he needs to achieve that potential. A brilliant talented midforward that can strike a goal from half way across the pitch, (soccer analogy here), but chooses not to because he doesn't want the attention, is different from a person that could become that if they put more energy and training into it. Not sure why it's only the 616 universe though, maybe we should include him with a sidenote that he's only portrayed Omega capabilities in an Alternate Universe? Jacobshaven3 00:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless it's specifically stated in a comic, it's OR and speculation. CovenantD 02:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gambit! 

message: I don't really do much with wikipedia in terms of editing so sorry if I screw this up or am crude (and this is why I don't plan to edit the page myself) but I think there are a few other mutants that should be put on the Omega List.
I forget the history behind when the term was first coined and how it is used. Still, I think that there are a lot of mutants in the Marvel Universe that for whatever reason have not been mentioned or hinted as Omega class, but clearly are.
So basically, I suggest that the Omega Level page also have a sublist under the list of known Omegas based on potential Omegas or hinted Omegas, or mutants that seem like they are almost certainly Omega but haven't actually been labeled it.
Here are some suggestions to start:
1. Apocalypse: If you look at Apocalypse's powers, they are very similar to Mr. M and Elixir in terms of molecular alteration, which seems to be a fairly common trend among higher level or Omega class mutants. Also, he has done so much in the marvel universe, is seen as the first mutant, and is so revered by all that he is probably considered Omega. Further, while the third Summers brother is Omega class and has been revealed as Vulcan, I believe I've heard (even on wikipedia) that Apocalypse was originally planned to be the third Summers brother but then the writer left or something, which further justifies (in real world anyway, though not in the comics) that Apocalypse may be an Omega class mutant.
2. Scarlet Witch: After the events of the House of M and the redefining of her powers, I feel that Scarlet witch should be considered an Omega. Another prominant thing among Omegas and high level mutants is reality warping, which she clearly has, and is damn powerful at that. She has not tapped her true potential until House of M simply because most of it was unconscious, and due to the events of House of M it seems unlikely we'll see it discussed further for quite some time. However, I believe, again even on wikipedia, that it was mentioned that nobody really knows the limits of her powers.
3. Chamber: Another prominant theme in omega class or high level mutants is energy manipulation. Chamber has proven to be a very powerful energy manipulator, and has even been questioned as being a pure psionic being behind a shell. Also, it has been hinted at that Chamber may be a descendent of Apocalypse and his recent 'body' makes this seem even more likely. Thus, if Apocalypse is added to the list (as he should), then Chamber should as well.
4. Ice Man: Ice man, like Elixir and Apocalypse, has a high level of molecular manipulation which seems to be constantly evolving. On top of this, water has often times been seen as having an unlimited potential or being able to absorb other elements into itself, and so there is a sort of mythical theme to this as well. Most people don't necessarily realize this, but Ice Man's powers come from energy manipulation and not from moisture manipulation, giving him another aspect of omega or high level mutants. Finally, his Organic Ice form at least to me signifies a sort of transcended-human state, which many of the high level or omega mutants also share. It has also been hinted at that Ice Man may even by an Omega Class Mutant.
5. Hyperstorm: Hyperstorm is the son of two omega class mutants (Rachel Summers and Franklin Richards), and has an endless potential of powers that he gains from Hyperspace itself. He hasn't appeared largely in the Marvel Universe, but even still the only creature capable of defeating him in terms of sheer power was Galactus. 
Hyperstorm was Jonathan Richards, however there was another version of Rachel and Franklin's child, who never went by Hyperstorm, named David Richards. David was also very powerful, and may deserve mentioning under Hyperstorm if he were to be added to the list.
6. X-Man: X-Man has often times been noted as the most powerful mutant ever, a prophesized mutant, and was capable of defeating Apocalypse. His powers and history alone should make him an Omega, however if you take into account that Apocalypse is probably an Omega as well, that makes X-man an even more likely candidate.
7. Xorn: It is definitely too early to call yet, but I think there is the potential for Kuan-Yin Xorn to be an Omega class mutant. I'm still really confused as to the nature of Xorn and stuff, but being that he later becomes the Collective in the house of M, as well as all of the things he did even when pretending to be Magneto, leads me to believe there may be a future in him.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.245.175 (talk • contribs) 
:Again, no. Same as the last three times it's been suggested. Unless it's specifically stated in a comic, it's original research and speculation. CovenantD 23:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omega Probabilities 

message: All readers want it, because article is not on;y about current Omegas. We need Gambit, Chamber and etc. in "potential omega" table. KvaZaR 15:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can make a potential table without any original research, which doesn't break any other Wikipedia guidelines, go ahead. Jacobshaven3 01:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Which article states she is possbily omega, and by who?  Jacobshaven3 13:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ADD New table: Potential omega level 

message: There used to be a link and page setup for alpha-level mutants.  Did someone delete it and have it redirect to omega?  Why?
See (http://www.marveldatabase.com/wiki/Mutant#Classification) for more info on mutant classifications.
:Another Wiki, especially one that reports on a meeting to discuss this with no list of participants or qualifications, is hardly a reliable source of information. The Alpha-level article was nothing more than an unreferenced list and didn't meet any of the criteria for an encylopedic entry. CovenantD 18:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. When writing about fiction, use present tense. CovenantD 18:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the table is titled "Confirmed Omega-level mutants", not "Current Omega-level mutants" I don't see how this is a problem. Jean wil probably be back in a year or so, and Mister M was one. If alive he still would be. Even if they were depowered, since you should always describe fiction in the present tense, any character that has been described as Omega level should still be included, unless the person doing the describing is shown to have lied.Jacobshaven3 21:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alpha-level?