Talk:Bat Ye'or/Archive 1

message: : There is more work to be done particularly in the Theses section to make it a bit more clear and do the copy editing of the text.Also we should add a section that deals with her bio , her life story that is.--CltFn 05:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded the article a bit

message: Googled the reference and read it . It is irrelevant , thus I took it out.--CltFn 16:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it has her proper name which is why it shouldn't be removed. gren グレン 16:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NY times reference 

message: I would suggest that "the pseudonym of" is a better way of expressing this than "also known as", since Bat Ye'or seems to be the name that the woman uses exclusively in her public life. Palmiro | Talk 00:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  pseudonym v. also known as 

message: These are some of the claims that need a good supporting source, and which I've removed:
::[I took the liberty to move them down a step. Arre 01:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion: I don't believe this at all. Good source or remove. Arre 01:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion: Remove the word "historians" or provide source for this. Arre 01:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: My opinion: Untrue. She is not world famous, and she has coined or popularized both of those terms herself. I would agree with a reference to BY as having developed these two theories, but not as being a "pioneer" of something that is cited as if they were accepted scientific disciplines. They are not. Arre 01:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: My opinion: Source on "numerous" and qualification of "periodicals", since the tone of this article seems intended to present BY as a reputed scientist, which she clearly is not. I don't believe she's cited in any respectable scientific periodicals - at least not in an appreciative way. Arre 01:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I support Arre's remarks on these four points. Palmiro | Talk 02:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The only source for this is a page on a website http://mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/ which may perhaps belong to Bat Ye'or, and which holds the text of this lecture, with the note: "Introduction to an "analysis and discussion" at the United Nations (Geneva), 31 July 2001, organized by the NGO, Association for World Education.  (Spoken in French)". Is this really the same as "a UNHCR-organised conference"? I can't help but think that this source doesn't seem to bear the weight of the citation that's been landed on it. Who is the Association for World Education? What is their link with the UNHCR? What was the conference? Palmiro | Talk 02:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Source request

message: It doesn't strike me as standard practice to list every published book that attributes Bat Ye'or as an author, including translations of the same work. I would suggest listing all her works that have been published in English under the English title, and where she has published anything of which there is not an English translation, listing that in the original language. I think this is a more usual approach. Palmiro | Talk 02:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book list 

message: I'm looking for infos on the subject of the "Euro-Arab Dialogue (EAD) created in July 1974 in Paris" I can't find anything sensible: google.com? +"Euro-Arab+Dialogue" +EAD. Does Bat Ye'or qualify this organisation as being intentionally clandestine?
The only official mention I found was at publications.europa.eu, but only in the danish section, the english section doesn't. This google search, google.com? site:publications.europa.eu EAD, seems to indicate the possibility of a mix up with "Det Europæiske Forsvarsagentur (EAD, Bruxelles)", while this more comprehensive search, google.com? site:eu.int EAD, mentions the acronym "Encoded Archival Description (EAD)". --tickle me 12:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Try "Barcelona process". This is the current focus for dialogue between the EU and other Mediterranean states. Palmiro | Talk 12:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I did, prime result is europa.eu euromed and europa.eu euromed/bd.htm with an official descripion of the term. However, no mention of EAD or plotting for deliberate dhimmitude. --tickle me 20:22, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you hardly expected them to openly admit to it, did you? What's the point of having a massively effective evil conspiracy if you go and tell people about it? Palmiro | Talk 23:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but isn't that circular reasoning? "You may never have heard of the Euro-Arab Dialogue, but that only goes to show how powerful it is" (Thomas Jones). The issue is: Are there any factual clues indicating that EAD is more than a conspiracy theory, as it is prominently claimed by Ye'or's critics? --tickle me 00:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can work out, what Bat Ye'or means by the EAD is in fact the Barcelona process. So, yes, there is this dialogue, but no, of course there is no evidence to support her insane theses about it. And she is, to put it mildly, a rather marginal figure: I've studied European government and politics and Middle Eastern history at third level, and wikipedia is the only place I ever heard of her. Palmiro | Talk 01:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  EAD: Infos available? 

message: The article contains a paragraph on citations of "dhimmitude" and Bat Ye'or in scholarly sources. One of the nightmares of Wikipedia is  misleading citations (I'm not saying that anyone set out give misleading citations here). In an attempt to find out the accuracy of the claims and citations given here, I offer the following version of the paragraph (in italics) with the citations it gives quoted in full:
:Usage of the term "dhimmitude" has increased in recent years (as Google confirms); some scholars have used it both by itself   
::This is an article by one Sidney Griffiths of the Catholic University of America. Fr. Sidney Griffiths is a professor of Semitic and Egyptian Languages and Literatures, with special interest in "Syriac monasticism; medieval Christian-Muslim encounters; ecumenical and interfaith dialogue" so it is interesting that in relation to this, he does indeed use the term "dhimmitude". And he also has the following to say about Bat Ye'or, where he cites her in his references:
:::Also easily available is Bat Ye̓or, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam; from Jihad to Dhimmitude; Seventh-Twentieth Century (Madison & Teaneck, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1996). One must use this book with great care due to the author̓s extreme anti-Islamic prejudice and consequent distortion of the facts of history, both Christian and Islamic. Nevertheless, the quoted sources do provide some sense, albeit highly distorted by reason of selective quotation, of the difficulties experienced by Christians over the centuries living under Islamic rule. The book gave rise to some surprisingly bigoted remarks by Richard John Neuhaus, “The Public Square; the Approaching Century of Religion,” First Things no. 76 (October, 1997), pp. 75-79. There are similar problems with Bat Ye̓or, The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam (Rutherford, Madison, & Teaneck, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985) and with Bat Ye̓or, Islam and Dhimmitude; Where Civilizations Collide (Madison & Teaneck, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 2002). It remains to Bat Ye̓or̓s credit to have raised an important issue that still has not received adequate study. 
:and in association with Bat Ye'or's work, e.g. in undergraduate  
::This really does look like a real academic course in a real university Westmont College that uses Bat Ye'or as a text. Which is rather worrying:
:::Muslim Challenge
:::Sources: Annemarie Schimmel, Islam: An Introduction (SUNY Press, 1992);    Marshall G.S. Hodgson, The Venture of Islam, 3 vols. (University of Chicago,    1974); Alexander Murray, :::"The Later Middle Ages" and Kallistos Ware,    "Eastern Christianity" in Richard Harries and Henry Mayr-Harting,    Christianity: Two Thousand Years (Oxford, 2001); Bat Ye'or, Islam    and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide (Fairleigh Dickinson, 2001);    Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi (Fairleigh Dickinson, 1985).
:and graduate courses relating to the relationship Muslims have had historically with other peoples  
::This seems to be a bona fide reference to bat Ye'or, but not to "dhimmitude"; Bat Ye'or's book is given as additional reading on a reading list:
:::Week 4: Rearticulating Historical Context: the location of Ottoman minorities
:::The lecture starts with the identification of the parameters of the conflict within a social science framework. The reanalysis of the legal and social status of social groups in Ottoman history places the interaction and conflict between the Turks and Armenians in a broader perspective.  
:::Assigned readings:
:::Bernard Lewis (ed), Christians and Jews in the Ottoman empire: the functioning of a plural society, [especially part I and part II], New York: Holmes and Meier 1982; Bernard Lewis, What Went Wrong, (Chapter 4), Oxford University Press, 2002; Salahi R. Sonyel, Minorities and the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, Vahakn Dadrian, The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus, (introduction), Providence & Oxford: Berghahn Books, 1995; Fatma Muge Gocek Rise of the Bourgeoisie, Demise of  Empire: Ottoman Westernization and Social Change 1996.
:::Additional Readings:
:::Watt, William Montgomery. Moslem-Christian Encounters. Perceptions and Misperceptions. London and New York: Routledge, 1991. Ye'or, Bat. The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude. Translated by Miriam Kochan and David Littman. Madison and Teaneck: Farleigh Dickinson University Press, 1996. Ye'or, Bat. Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide. Madison and Teaneck: Farleigh Dickinson University Press, 2002
:or to the study of regions such as Syria. http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/LT-ANTIQ/2003/04/0066.php http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/LT-ANTIQ/2003/04/0074.php 
::Link is to a mailing list message by one John N. Lupia, III, 31 Norwich Drive, Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News God Bless America  in which he recommends Bat Ye'or's book as a source on the history of Syriac Christians; he also recommends William Dalrymple's travelogue 'From the Holy Mountain; this is in response to a question from another user "I am looking for some good general introductions to the Syriac church and the Syriac world in general. What would list members suggest should be essential reading for a beginner in this field- I am particularly interested in the architecture and archaeology of the area."
:Her works have also been quoted by some scholars with reference to the field of religious history. 
::Link is (no longer?) to an article but to the home page of the Emory International Law Review, which doesn't sound like a publication terribly concerned with religious history. 
I will attempt to edit the article to sort all this out some time in the next week or two - I'm very busy with work at the moment. Griffith's remarks might also be good for the intro. Palmiro | Talk 17:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What I found most intersting was that some Bat Yeor is published by Farleigh Dickinson Press.  People like Ibn Warraq are published by Prometheus which is suspect just because it only has more anti-Islamic leaning texts.  I don't know if Fairleigh Dickinson is the most notable or well respected text... but I'd assume it deserves some respect.  The undergraduate course that uses it also uses a book by Annemarie Schimmel who is definitely not along the same lines as Bat Yeor.  So, we can't really know if it's used with a grain of salt or not.  Interesting research you've done... and it does show a big problem with wikipedia... citing willy-nilly. gren グレン 18:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: As for the westmont.edu undergraduate link, the lecturer is one Telford C. Work, assistant professor of Theology. The chgs.umn.edu lecturer is Taner Akçam, a professor of sociology and respected Turkish publicist, dealing mostly with Turkish/Armenian history. So neither of them is specialised in near eastern history or Islamic issues - for what that's worth, just to chip in my 2c. --tickle me 04:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scholarly credibility of Bat Ye'or 

message: Some historians regard her work as politically opinionated rather than factual, while others regard it as scholarly. The New York Times ("Europe's Jews Seek Solace on the Right", February 20, 2005) referred to her as one of the "most extreme voices on the new Jewish right".
We must be more specific who these "some" and "others" historians are. NYT definitely does not qualify as a "historian".--Pecher 08:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Influence