Talk:Gyaincain Norbu

message: Redwolf24 00:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. It's spelled according to the Chinese system for spe Tibetan, which looks weird to English-speakers. I think the pronunciation of Qoigyijabu is something like "choo-gee jah-bu", where the "g" is a hard g, and the "oo" is sort of like the ö in German phrases like "bitte schön". It would be cool if someone knowledgeable would add a IPA pronunciation guide. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 21:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: As a compromise to an apparent edit war, I am including the BBC News article link, with a suitably NPOV title on the Panchem Lama article's external links section, as I feel it is relevant there, and not relevant here. Please sort it out on the talk pages before any further revert war. Alf 01:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  For real 

message: * The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know...
Does anybody else think the external link above would be helpful?  I have posted it to this article, but it was removed by Hottentot.  Please give an opinion.  I personally, believe that the link is extremely relavent to the article.--FT in Leeds 02:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the news article is fine, but I must admit the above titlte is very POV, I'm fine with how I left it as I see no problem refering to it by the same name as the BBC uses for the article. I personally do not mind discussing these three articles on individual pages, but I genuinely think we'd be better talking about them together, on one page. Alf 10:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Link : The truth the mainland Chinese government doesn't want you to know 

message: I think the title of this article is wrong. I suspect that the actual name of this person is Qoigyijabu, and that the "Erdini" is part of the title "Panchen Erdini". One often sees it written "11th Panchen [or Bainqen] Erdini Qoigyijabu", but this (I think) means "the 11th Panchen Erdini, who is named Qoigyijabu" rather than "the 11th Panchen, who is named Erdini Qoigyijabu. This view is also supported by this article, which says "Gyaencaen Norbu was selected as the reincarnate of the Tenth Panchen Erdeni" and says that his (full) religious name is "Jizun Losang Qamba Lhunzhub Qoigyijabu Baisangbu". We should probably move it. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 21:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved it. -- ran (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that was fast! Ran fixed the major redirects here, and I fixed some of the minor ones. Thanks, Ran! - Nat Krause(Talk!) 23:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Title change?

message: The major courses he studied were Tibetan Buddism classics.
He speaks Tibetan much better than Chinese mandarin, however, if you insist to use this sentence it is correct, too.
Tibetan are Chinese as well.--61.30.72.148 03:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask the Dalai Lama if he's chinese.Dragonnas (talk) 19:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Dalai Lama has already answered that question: "I am not seeking separation from China. I am committed to my middle-way approach whereby Tibet remains within the People’s Republic of China enjoying a high degree of self-rule or autonomy." (http://dalailama.com/page.54.htm) You might be confusing nationality with ethnicity. By the way, please remember to capitalize the word "Chinese".  Mesopelagicity (talk) 19:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't capitalize american either =) Dragonnas (talk) 21:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  during his childhood to be educated in a Chinese way 

message: GEEZ! Does anyone here really have any idea about Buddism??
In meditation, it is possible you don't see any people in years, and why the Panchen Lama needs to report his status to the media and the public? Also, the Panchen Lama just visits the space museum, April 2007. --61.30.72.148 03:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  is almost never seen in public 

message: User:Blnguyen is actively pursuing a POV representation on the issue of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima versus Qoigyijabu‎. That WP:NPOV dictates that neither should be identified as the Panchen Lama seems trite policy to me.
It is telling that User:Blnguyen signs off with an edit summary of "POV", for indeed that is the best description for his reversions. Please keep to NPOV. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please use edit summaries correctly if you're going to do reverts. A revert is never a minor edit, and your edit summary should state that the edit in question is a revert.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 04:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: further comments are posted at Talk:Gedhun Choekyi Nyima. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV and User:Blnguyen (cross posted to Gedhun Choekyi Nyima‎) 

message: I thought it was necessary to revert back to PalaceGuard's version. We don't really have sources which would establish a basis on which we can take a side between the two claimants to the position of Panchen Lama. I did change the wording to he "is, according to the government of the People's Republic of China, the eleventh Panchen Lama of Tibet" with the the "according to ..." clause first. Hopefully, this will lead the reader to understand that Qoigyijabu is not simply "the Panchen Lama" but someone who is supported by someone.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 20:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I had no intention of starting an edit war when I made several changes March 27, 2008 to this article, intending to improve its legibility, style, grammar, and neutrality. Some of my changes were reverted within three minutes. Did anybody really have the opportunity to evaluate my changes in three minutes? According to the edit summaries, the people who have repeatedly reverted all of my changes think that anyone who tries to make the article more NPOV is a "Nazi" and "spreading communist party lies". If you believe a change I made was not NPOV, why don't you explain your reasoning? As it stands, the article is very badly written even without considering the bias problem. Do you have any idea what a "run-on sentence" is? This is a run-on sentence: "He is the son of two members of the Communist party[1] and was installed under the instruction of the Chinese government, instead of seven year old Gedhun Choekyi Nyima who had been identified as the Panchen Lama by the Dalai Lama, the traditional revealer of the reincarnated tulku, placing the young boy into secret custody outside of Tibet." Do you disagree? I split it into two sentences to make it more legible. Was that a mistake? If so, please explain why. I also fixed grammatical errors, such as this one: "This tradition had been introduced in the 1792 by ..." In standard English, we don't say "in the 1792", so I deleted "the". If your English isn't so good, that's nothing to be ashamed of, but you need to recognize your limitations and refrain from reverting my grammatical corrections. Instead of reverting wholesale, how about if you examine my changes one by one? Let stand the ones that are good. Revise the ones that in your opinion are bad, and provide some explanation. I have no axe to grind about Qoigyijabu, one way or another. I simply consulted the article because I was interested, and saw that it was clearly biased as well as badly written, so I tried to improve it in ways which I believe any neutral and educated person would agree are reasonable. Just one more example, what does it mean to say that a particular human being is "not genuine"? Does it mean not human? I changed the wording from "not genuine" to "not the Panchen Lama". That's the intended meaning, isn't it? So why revert it?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.45.238 (talk) 02:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Was that User:Blnguyen, that shining beacon of impartiality, who reverted you? That's what it looks like in the page history. If that is so, then good luck trying to reason with the Great Font of Truth who knows better than everyone else in the world. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war? 

message: Please see Talk:Panchen Lama for some remarks about the two articles on Gedhun Choekyi Nyima and Gyancain Norbu. Mesopelagicity (talk) 20:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compassion 

message: As long as we're educating the reader that the CPC is an "atheist organization", how about balancing the picture with the following: "The Government of Tibet in Exile is a theocracy. It conducted guerrilla operations against the Chinese and was funded by the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States, as the Dalai Lama later acknowledged. The Constitution of the United States mandates the separation of church and state." Here's the New York Times reference for the CIA funding:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD61538F931A35753C1A96E958260
It says "The money allocated for the resistance movement was spent on training volunteers and paying for guerrilla operations against the Chinese, the Tibetan government-in-exile said in a statement." Not that this necessarily justifies anything, but it provides a more well-rounded perspective on PRC involvement in what might otherwise appear to be a purely religious issue.  Mesopelagicity (talk) 18:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atheist CPC and theocratic CIA 

message: Which of the two alleged Panchen Lamas does this statement refer to? And where is the verifiable reference? The reference provided (an article written by Jonathan Watts for the Guardian, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/08/china.worlddispatch) says something about "most Tibetans"; it doesn't say anything about "the majority of the Panchen Lama's followers." It would be more NPOV and verifiable to say, "According to Jonathan Watts, Qoigyijabu is not recognised as the Panchen Lama by most Tibetans." Otherwise the statement appears to be original research. Mesopelagicity (talk) 18:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "... along with the majority of the Panchen Lama's followers ..." 

message: "On February 13, 2008, Qoigyijabu turned 18 years old. At about the same time, reports indicated that the Chinese government had decided that he would be elected to the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, a high-ranking position in the national communist government unrelated to the affairs of a Panchen Lama. "
This is obviously wrong because both the current Dalai Lama and 10th Panchen Lama had been elected to be high rank officiers in National People's Congress of China. They both conducted many activities in public in such a role. Refer to this documentary vedio: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Rghy1FREq8M&feature=related
10th Panchen Lama has been in this role for about 30 years.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.155.192.235 (talk) 06:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Role in National People's Congress 

message: Gyaincain Norbu is the english name right? so why is it not the title? 218.186.8.10 (talk) 22:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe Gyaincain Norbu is the name he was given when he was born (his "secular" name), and Qoigyijabu is the name he was given for religious purposes. Mesopelagicity (talk) 00:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gyaincain Norbu? 

message: This phrase is wrong. The selection of the current CPC-backed Pachen Lama was also done using religious Buddhist means, albeit with secular intervention. Stating that the original boy was selected using Buddhist means suggests that the current one was not. Ether change the above to "selected by the current Dali Lama", or keep the "religious means part" and ALSO state that the current CPC-backed Pachen Lama is selected ALSO via "religious Buddhist means, with secular intervention", namely the support of the CPC and the revoking of selection rights of the Dali Lama-chosen candidate. (User talk: Children of the Dragon) 22:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Religious buddhist means" refers to the traditional recognition of the reincarnation by his former friends and compatriots. This is a stark contrast to the method of selecting a name out of an urn, after the person who HAD been selected by the "method of recognition" has been disqualified. I believe buddhists frown upon gambling, which seems a good description for how Q was selected (e.g, by a combination of chance and [atheist]government intervention).Dragonnas (talk) 21:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The phrase "this was not the same boy who was selected using religious Buddhist means" is misleading 

message: I made some changes to the text of this article yesterday to correct some mistakes but I note that today they have been reversed. I take the editor's point that both contenders should have a qualifier added to the caption on their photo, not just on one, and I have done this. But it is not correct to state that Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, the other contender, was picked by the "Tibetan Government in exile" - this is just not true - he was picked by Tibetan Buddhist Church authorities. Gyaincain Norbu was picked by appointees of the Chinese Government using the so-called "Golden Urn" method of drawing a name out of an urn under the supervision of Chinese government authorities. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 21:51, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The two contenders for Panchen Lama

message: "However, Tashi Wangdi, an exile government figure and representative to the Dalai Lama said of Norbu, "I think if he wants to pursue religious leadership, in Tibetan customs we have more than one reincarnation. If he proves himself to be a good practitioner and religious leader, people will treat him as a reincarnation."[20] This is disputed by Tashi Wangdi, the Representative to the Dalai Lama, who said that Gyaincain Norbu lacks legitimacy in the eyes of the Tibetan people, who are forced to attend his ceremonies. "They can’t keep their Panchen Lama in Tibet. They tried to bring him to his monastery many times but people would not see him. How can you have a religious leader like that?"[21]"
So is Wangdi disputing himself here or is someone else meant to have been quoted there?
Plutonium27 03:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hilarious. It looks like this was added by an overzealous IP editor a few months ago. It is all from one interview with Tashi Wangdi. Basically, he's not really disputing himself, he's just being equivocal. First, he emphasizes that Gyaincain Norbu is unpopular and has no legitimacy. Then, he starts to hedge and implies that Gyaincain Norbu could earn some legitimacy in the future through good behaviour, and he even implies that there might sort of be two Panchen Lamas. One could speculate that, in his mind, he started out expressing strongly anti-Chinese-government sentiments, but then he remembered that the exile establishment is supposed to be seeking compromise with the Chinese government, so he switched to a more conciliatory tack. This opinion can't go in the article, obviously, but Tashi Wangdi tends to give his talking points hamfistedly.—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 12:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tashi Wangdi Interview - makes no sense 

message: If you read the article here, the Golden urn has been used three times to select the Dalai Lama. If you read the article on the Golden Urn, it has only been used once.
Following the two sources, the article cited here does not actually state how many times it was used in the past (but it is a Chinese source so it is possible this information is missing in the translation). The article cited in the golden urn article states it was used twice in the past to select the Dalai Lama, but one of those was to endorse a candidate already selected.
I suggest someone who is familiar with the topic reviews the sources and clarifies this. As one article is by the Tibetan govt. in exile and the other by the PRC govt, I suggest neither is really a suitable reference without heavy rephrasing: "the golden urn has been used at least once and possibly on other occasions", but I will leave this to the experts as I know this is a sensitive topic and I don't want to start a fight.
110.171.37.24 (talk) 09:43, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition to Dalai Lamas (1-3 times), some other Tibetan figures such as the 8th Panchen Lama were also selected by the Golden Urn. It was never meant to be Dalai Lama only. --Cartakes (talk) 23:28, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golden Urn used once or three times? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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