Talk:Voice leading

message: Sgmanohar 20:05, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the idea of voice leading have much application outside of counterpoint? I think not. I also think the material on auditory streams deserves a separate article; one which amplifies the streaming laws mentioned in passing, and that the Voice leading and Auditory stream articles should reference each other using See also: links. yoyo 03:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you requesting an expansion of auditory stream information, or are you saying that the merging of the two stubs was inappropriate? Hyacinth 01:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Counterpoint

message: *"The term 'voice leading' refers to the way in which individual voices move from chord to chord. The best voice leading occurs when all individual voices move smoothly. You can achieve this by moving between chords using the same note or moving up or down by a step in the inner voices of the chord, whenever possible....Chords are voice led..."
**Thomas, John (2002). Voice Leading for Guitar: Moving Through the Changes, p.3. .
Hyacinth 08:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definitions

message: Any reason that "relationship" is preferrable to "continuity" in the lead? Hyacinth 01:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuity vs relationship

message: This page could really benefit from notated examples, even if they are very simplistic. Matt.kaner 21:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples 

message: The intro paragraph uses "vertical" and "horizontal" without defining them.  Anyone know what is meant by this?  --Doradus (talk) 01:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd love to define them, but I lack the software for producing musical example—the obvious way of doing this. Anyone got suggestions? I'm not buying software for the purpose (I used to own Finale). Mac OSX. Tony (talk) 02:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text: vertical and horizontal refer to the printed musical score.  So, "vertical" refers to the sequence of notes played simultaneously, i.e. harmony, while "horizontal" refers to sequences of notes in time, i.e. melodies.--Todd (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vertical and horizontal 

message: Rather than a problem with jargon, the problem in the article is with the lead, which barely defines the topic, does not provide context, and lacks internal links, never mind summarizing the article. Hyacinth (talk) 01:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Tag removed. Internal links and quotes added. Hyacinth (talk) 09:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: Aside from the problems cited above, the use of language is poor.  There are sentences which don't quite conform to rules of English grammar ("An auditory stream is a perceived melodic line, and streaming laws attempt to indicate the psychoacoustic basis of contrapuntal music"), over-use of passive voice ("It is assumed ..."), and other problems with the prose.  Could someone who knows this subject do a "make over" so this article is comprehensible and well-written?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.89.187.70 (talk) 09:18, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs a rewrite

message: Dear Colleague(s),
You may or may not be one and the same person: let's say that my questions concern both of you without any attempt to address any of you more specifically... I thank you for your interest in bettering this article, but some of your recent changes puzzle me. Did you read this talk page, where some aspects of the article in its recent state are discussed? Let me list my questions:
* "Voice leading is the way that musical parts (voices) set up and achieve melodic, harmonic and formal goals using pitch and rhythm."
I don't quite realize what you mean by "melodic, harmonic and formal goals": shouldn't this be defined somewhere? So far as I can imagine the kind of goals you might have in mind, I don't see why they should be achieved "using pitch and rhythm" only. Wouldn't dynamics, articulations, and the like, contribute to these goals? Is voice leading only a matter of pitch and rhythm? These questions also concern the few phrases that follow, about "different weights on arrival" (?) or "the role of outer voices" (about which more below).
* "Voice leading practices can be codified into rules for pedagogical purposes." 
But haven't voice-leading practices been first codified [necessarily "into rules": how otherwise?], long ago, for compositional purposes?
* "A more nuanced view of voice leading principles is found in the theories of Heinrich Schenker. Schenkerian analysis examines how the outer voices work together to establish form in common-practice music. See Linear progression for an example from Beethoven's Sonata op. 109.
This I utterly fail to understand. I what sense do you consider Schenker's view "more nuanced"? More nuanced than what? In what sense can you consider that Schenkerian analysis "examines how the outer voices work together to establish form"? Do you have a source for such an astonishing statement? As to the example from Beethoven's op. 109, it is mainly intended to show the phenomenon of "leading voice" (or leading linear progression), which is only a very particular case of voice leading...
* "Although pacing a piece’s various arrivals is the most important result of voice leading, Western musicians have tended to teach voice leading by focusing on connecting adjacent harmonies because that skill is foundational to meeting larger, structural objectives."
Once again, I don't understand. In particular, I don't understand "pacing various arrivals". And when do you think composers began to focus on adjacent harmonies, if they ever did? Can you really believe that connecting adjacent harmonies is "foundational to meeting larger, structural objectives"? Do you have a reference for such an astonishing opinion?
* "On a chord-to-chord level, common-practice conventions dictate..." 
This indeed sounds like The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory (one wonders who is the idiot, the author or the reader): these "conventions" are much older than any idea of "chord-to-chord level"!!!
* "one of the main conventions of common-practice part-writing is that, between successive harmonies, voices should avoid leaps and retain common tones as much as possible. This principle was commonly discussed among 17th- and 18th-century musicians as a rule of thumb."
Can you quote 17th- or 18th century theorists justifying such a claim? The quotations from Rameau (and Masson) that I had added to the article seem to me quite unique in these centuries, and hardly repeated before the 19th century.
* "File:BWV941 Voice leading...A Neo-Riemannian perspective on voice leading in mm. 3-7 of J. S. Bach's Little Prelude in E minor, BWV 941."
I at least, as author of this example, would never describe it as "a Neo-Riemannian perspective on voice leading"! I wrote it (for other purposes) as a Schenkerian example, and thought that it might serve to explain a voice leading among pitch classes; but that is hardly neo-Riemannian!
* "Schenker attributed the rule to Cherubini, but Cherubini's conception was more in line with his 18th-century peers, saying only that conjunct movement should be preferred."
Can you document this statement? Cherubini's conception does not seem widely shared in France in his time (or before), and the German conception of the 18th and 19th centuries certainly was in favor of "melodic fluency", not conjunct movement.
* "As the Renaissance gave way to the Baroque era, part writing reflected the increasing stratification of harmonic roles. This differentiation between outer and inner voices was an outgrowth of both tonality and homophony. In this new style, the outer voices took a commanding role in determining the flow of the music and tended to move more often by leaps. Inner voices tended to move stepwise or repeat common tones."
You may not be the first to say this, but I remain utterly puzzled on several counts. First, the differentiation beween outer and inner voices: I merely don't see this differenciation happen, in the domain of voice leading at least (Hindemith's übergeordnete Zweistimmigkeit is something else). Second, why should it grow out of tonality and homophony, and how? And from where comes the idea that the upper voice could "move more often by leaps"? Do you have references for any of these?
* "A Schenkerian perspective on these roles shifts the discussion somewhat from "outer and inner" to "upper and bass." Although the outer voices still play the dominant, form-defining role in this view, the leading soprano voice is often seen as a composite line that draws on the voice leadings in each of the upper voices of the imaginary continuo."
I would have thought that, in any composition, the "upper and bass" voices are the "outer voices". I never thought that "in a Schenkerian perspective" the outer voices had a "form-defining role" and I don't think that Schenker ever said that. We obviously don't have the same edition of the Cadwallader and Gagné book (I was not aware of a 2010 edition), but in my edition very little support is given to the idea of the leading (?!) soprano often seen as a composite line. It is true that they give an example (example 3.22 in my edition, 2011) where the upper voice produces three voices of the imaginary continuo, but that is rather a rare case.
* "Approaching harmony from a non-Schenkerian perspective, Dmitri Tymoczko nonetheless also demonstrates such "3+1" voice leading as a feature of tonal writing."
In my edition at least (but we may once again have different ones), Tymoczko is not speaking here of "tonal writing" but of Josquin Desprez and other Renaissance composers. It is true that the bass voice often plays a different role in tonal writing also, but Schenker had recognized and stressed that long before Tymoczko, and Rameau before both of them.
I will gladly read your answers about all these (and please open a Wikipedia account, which would make discussions easier). — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 22:15, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been watching these recent edits myself, and would have asked many of these same questions had you not gotten there first, dear Hucbald (and, as usual, with greater thoroughness than I would have managed). I, too, look forward to the response(s) of user(s) 3.186.189.163 and Woodowl1234 (the latter of which does appear to be a registered user, BTW).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:28, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions to users 73.186.189.163 and Woodowl1234 

message: Thanks for your questions. Sorry about the delayed response.
=== "Voice leading is the way that musical parts (voices) set up and achieve melodic, harmonic and formal goals using pitch and rhythm." ===
I'm thinking of goals in a quasi-Schenkerian perspective, so, yes, pitch and rhythm would be the dominant formative parameters (the rhythm guiding how you interpret the relative importance of pitches). Generally speaking, musical goals are extremities that are prepared (and often led from) in a linear way. The goal of a melody, for instance, is usually its high-point. More broadly, musical goals are the fulfillment, sometimes in unexpected ways, of expectations created through established patterns.
=== "Voice leading practices can be codified into rules for pedagogical purposes." ===
But haven't voice-leading practices been first codified [necessarily "into rules": how otherwise?], long ago, for compositional purposes?
No, that gets the priority backwards. Voice-leading practices are always broader than the rules to describe them. That's why rules serve pedagogical but not compositional purposes: they help students notice the basics and thus have a context for more unusual usages. Considering unusual usages "broken rules" gives the traditional rules a primacy they don't deserve. The final arbiter of what works musically is always actual usage, not abstract rules.
"Into rules" is somewhat redundant, but not entirely; it helps clarify the contrast implicit in "codify" with "practices."
=== Schenker and nuance ===
Schenker's view of voice leading is "more nuanced" than the basic part writing rules in para. 2.
Regarding that Schenkerian analysis "examines how the outer voices work together to establish form" — I fail to see how this claim is astonishing. That's *precisely* what it does. The Urlinie is composed of various permutations of the upper sounding voices and the Bassbrechung derives mostly from the bass. Together, these lines show the analyst's interpretation of the most important pitches at various hierarchical levels within the fundamental structure. These most important pitches reveal the piece's form at various levels. These layers of detail, the procedures by which they're established, and the analytical goals toward which they are directed all provide many, many layers of nuance beyond what's encapsulated in simple chord-to-chord connections.
Now, regarding form I suppose a Schenkerian analysis *could* be in conflict with traditional forms (e.g., sonata), but I'd always give preference to the actual music than the prescriptive form since the traditional form is just a schemata anyway. (Dahlhaus gives a more involved discussion in "Models of Unity in Musical Form.") Schemata were meant to be messed with.
Now the Beethoven example may not establish all these points, but by your own admission it is an example of how voice leading works in a Schenkerian perspective. It makes a useful starting point.
=== on arrivals and the chord-to-chord level ===
"Although pacing a piece’s various arrivals is the most important result of voice leading, Western musicians have tended to teach voice leading by focusing on connecting adjacent harmonies because that skill is foundational to meeting larger, structural objectives."
By "pacing various arrivals," I refer to the power of voice leading to help us understand "yes, we've reached this formal goal" or "no, we have not." On such example would be the difference between cadence forms (PAC, IAC, HC, etc.) at various transposition levels (PAC vs. TPAC, etc.). By dwelling longer in a particular harmonic region, the composer can, for instance, create a sense of stability or build tension depending on the harmonic and voice leading context of that region and the voice leading within it. One of the features of sonata form that shows pacing happening at various arrivals is the difference in large-scale harmonic rhythm between the exposition, development and recapitulation. The large-scale harmony is more or less static in the recap, moves slowly but decisively in the exposition, and very quickly in the development (which is why the retransition dominant pedal is useful, because it helps signal the upcoming change). Now, the cadences the define the harmonic regions within a piece aren't the only elements that signal long-range voice leading, but they do compose a crucial part of it.
How a composer connects adjacent harmonies is absolutely "foundational to meeting larger, structural objectives." Every expectation a composer creates derives from a stable pattern. If the connection between harmonies is not predictable, the listener will notice, even if they cannot articulate what they're noticing. This is the basis for the prohibition on parallel perfect intervals. Such motion suggests that these intervals are unstable, which fights against the larger common-practice usage that fifths and octaves are hallmarks of resting points and consonance.
I make no claim that composers focus *exclusively* on adjacent harmonies. I likewise don't think you're suggesting they *never* focus on adjacent harmonies. Both are absurd, and neither are intended, so that's a moot point.
What I am claiming is that the pedagogy has focused on connecting adjacent harmonies. And that point is easily demonstrable. Among the many textbooks that do this, you can look at Kostka/Payne or Benjamin/Horvit/Nelson/Koozin, the latter of which has a tidy "Checklist for Part Writing" (252) focused exclusively on chord-to-chord connections. For older examples, such connections form the basis of Schoenberg's Harmonielehre and of figure bass treatises such as José de Torres's “General Rules for Accompanying” (1736). And then there's the Huron citation (http://www.music-cog.ohio-state.edu/Huron/Publications/huron.voice.leading.html), for whom "the traditional rules of voice-leading in Western music" refer almost entirely to connections between adjacent harmonies. While it is true that these works go beyond adjacent connections, it is also true that they all treat connecting adjacent harmonies as the foundational skill preparatory to learning larger harmonic practices.
Now the very specificity for which you criticize this sentence — "On a chord-to-chord level, common-practice conventions dictate..." — is precisely my defense.
I explicitly state we're talking about chord-to-chord connections to contrast this discussion from long-range voice leading.
Likewise, I refer explicitly to common-practice conventions because even before Rameau, musicians were thinking in terms of adjacent harmonies (see the aforementioned figured bass treatises). That they were not thinking in those terms at a much older date is irrelevant because I'm deliberately limited the discussion to the common practice (per the section heading).
Being explicit is not treating readers as idiots; it's ensuring they're on the same page. Which I hope we can do, too.
=== "This principle was commonly discussed among 17th- and 18th-century musicians as a rule of thumb." ===
I based this on my study of figured bass manuals. I'll get back to you on citations.
=== Voice leading example ===
I apologize that I misunderstood your example. I'm afraid I still don't understand, though.  How exactly do these arrows show voice leading among pitch classes? They seem simply to show how a harmony is respelled rather than the connection between voices (e.g., D-sharp to E in the bass). What did you have in mind?
=== Cherubini and Schenker ===
I can claim "the more in line with his 18th-century peers" part, but the rest of that sentence seems to come before my revisions: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Voice_leading&oldid=699691880. At this point, a year later, I'm not sure why I added that clause (unless I had more specific examples in mind from the aforementioned treatises). For now it can easily be restored to "Schenker attributed the rule to Cherubini, but Cherubini had only said that conjunct movement should be preferred."
What examples do you have that Cherubini's conception does not seem widely shared in France in his time? (This is a sincere question, not a challenge.)
=== Renaissance onward ===
"First, the differentiation between outer and inner voices: I merely don't see this differentiation happen, in the domain of voice leading at least (Hindemith's übergeordnete Zweistimmigkeit is something else)." What do you have in mind when you say "the domain of voice leading"?
What I have in mind is what Karpinski describes in his *Manual for Ear Training and Sight Singing* (chapter: "Introduction to Voice Leading"), differentiating between part (the rhythmic adjacencies) and voice (the stepwise adjacencies or octave displacements). In this view, in homophonic music (the dominant common-practice texture), inner voices do tend to move more by step whereas the larger leaps tend to be concentrated in the outer voices. (In the sentence beginning "in this new style," "more often" is a comparison to the inner voices, not to the previous style. That can be clarified in the article.)
"Second, why should it grow out of tonality and homophony, and how?"
This differentiation grows out of homophony as a defining feature of the texture itself. In order to maintain the focus on soprano and bass, the alto and tenor have to remain relatively less active. George Mackay discusses this idea in *Creative Orchestration* pp. 39-41, 53-58.
The differentiation also grows out of tonality inasmuch as it is the outer voices that govern cadence forms.
=== Schenker and Tymoczko ===
"I would have thought that, in any composition, the 'upper and bass' voices are the 'outer voices.'" Now you're just being difficult. My distinction is clear both from the usage of "upper" in the paragraph and from common sense. (Why would I use the comparative "upper" to describe the "top"?)
Being away from my library for the holidays, I don't have access to my copy of Cadwallader and Gagné (or Tymoczko) with me, so I can't comment further on your specific examples (we can discuss it later), but I can say that the 2010 edition is the hardcover. 2011 is the paperback. They appear both to be the third edition. 
On both these points, I know you don't know me from Adam and I haven't been active on this page for a while (as I clearly should have been), but if you could tone down the snark it'd be appreciated.
Woodowl1234 (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to User:Hucbald.SaintAmand 

message: "I would have thought that, in any composition, the 'upper and bass' voices are the 'outer voices.'" Now you're just being difficult. My distinction is clear both from the usage of "upper" in the paragraph and from common sense. (Why would I use the comparative "upper" to describe the "top"?)
Being away from my library for the holidays, I don't have access to my copy of Cadwallader and Gagné (or Tymoczko) with me, so I can't comment further on your specific examples (we can discuss it later), but I can say that the 2010 edition is the hardcover. 2011 is the paperback. They appear both to be the third edition. 
On both these points, I know you don't know me from Adam and I haven't been active on this page for a while (as I clearly should have been), but if you could tone down the snark it'd be appreciated.
Woodowl1234 (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schenker and Tymoczko 

message: Let me begin with your changes in the first paragraph of the article. Until you modified it on 18 January, it read:
:Voice leading (American) or part-writing (British), is the set of rules regulating the melodic movements of individual parts (voices) in all kinds of polyphonic music, or the application of these rules by the composer, especially in a Western classical music context. The expression "voice leading" is used for any kind of music that can be considered to include several voices, i.e. for instrumental ensembles, solo polyphonic instruments (keyboard instruments, lutes, guitars, harps and the like) or vocal ensembles.
This became:
:Voice leading is the way that musical parts (voices) set up and achieve melodic, harmonic and formal goals using pitch and rhythm. Often, a variety of parameters work together to produce a different weights of arrival, including "the interaction between chords and lines within harmonic progressions [...], the role of outer-voices counterpoint, the types of melodic motion, the retention of common tones, [and] the treatment of dissonance.”(1) Monophonic lines also exhibit voice leading.
::(1) Terefenko, Dariusz (2014). Jazz Theory: From Basic to Advanced Study, p.33. Routledge. .
To which I'd make the following comments:
1.1 I don't think it justified to remove part-writing as the British equivalent to the American "voice-leading". The New Grove Online still redirects from Voice leading to Part-writing and, in the first edition of The New Grove, William Drabkin had written "The expression 'voice-leading', which is a literal translation of Stimmführung, has come to be preferred in American usage, in spite of discouragement from English and German music lexicographers". I think that the British (including Drabkin himself) changed their mind about this, but anyone comparing our WP article with the New Grove would be troubled.
1.2 I still don't quite see what you mean by "melodic, harmonic and formal" goals. You write (hereabove) that "generally speaking, musical goals are extremities that are prepared (and often led from) in a linear way", but that leaves me even more puzzled. It what sense can a musical goal be an "extremity"? Can one be "led from" (?) a goal? You add that "The goal of a melody, for instance, is usually its high-point", and you claim to view that "in a quasi-Schenkerian perspective"; but if Schenker possibly considered melodic goals, I don't think that these ever were high-points. Musical goals certainly are the fulfillment of expectations, but these do not always concern the voice leading which, in turn, is not necessarily concerned by such goals. To make things short, this definition of Voice leading as the way in which parts set up and achieve goals needs a lot of additional explanation.
1.3 Is "a" in "a different weights" a leftover from an earlier formulation? Never mind. What do you mean by "weight", here? The weight of the goal, of the extremity, of the high point? I have no access to Terefenko's book, but the former formulation of this quote, in an earlier second paragraph of the article, does not provide any light:
:Principles of voice leading in jazz include "the interaction beween chords and lines within harmonic progressions [...], the role of outer-voices counterpoint, the types of melodic motion, the retention of common tones, the treatment of dissonance [...]."
There is no question of "a variety of parameter [that] work together", nor of "different weights", but of "principles of voice leading in jazz"...
1.4 The earlier version of this first paragraph clearly linked voice leading with polyphony (but, I admit, without justifying this statement) and, therefore, mainly with Western music. You remove that and, in the place, you write "Monophonic lines also exhibit voice leading". This certainly is a point that needs clarification. William Drabkin, in the New Grove, says that part-writing [i.e. voice leading] is "an aspect of counterpoint and polyphony", and I personally would stand on this side... This probably reflects a deeper misunderstanding between us about what voice leading really is.  
I don't want to be aggressive, Woodowl1234, but the truth is that I understand so to say nothing of your first paragraph.
Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 15:39, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  First paragraph 

message: You removed the paragraph devoted to voice leading in jazz and in pop music, which indeed did not really fit in the introduction to the article, and you replaced it by this:
:Voice leading practices are often codified into rules for pedagogical purposes. In these settings, "voice leading" is often synonymous with "part writing." These voice leading "rules" are usually applied in exercises in four-part harmonic writing and in 18th-century counterpoint. David Huron has demonstrated that many of the standard pedagogical rules have a basis in perceptual principles.(2)
::(2) Huron, David. "Tone and Voice: A Derivation of the Rules of Voice-leading from Perceptual Principles" Music Perception, Vol. 19, No. 1 (2001) pp. 1-64.
You are probably right to make a distinction between voice leading itself and its (pedagogical) rules: the former version, defining voice leading as "the set of rules regulating the melodic movements of individual parts", was unduly careless about this. 
I don't quite see however why it is only here that you mention "part writing", apparently associating it with rules. Note that the question of "part writing" vs "voice leading" has been the subject of an extensive discussion here (see higher on this page, Talk:Voice_leading#History); I am not sure to remain in complete agreement with what I said there, but certainly some of this discussion should make its way to the article itself. Nothing in it would support the idea that "part writing" is more concerned with rules than "voice leading" itself.
I certainly disagree with the idea that "voice leading 'rules' are usually applied in exercises in four-part harmonic writing". Voice leading rules apply mainly in contrapuntal writing, and if they are applied in exercises in harmonic writing, it is because of a confusion between harmony and counterpoint that arose in 19th-century teaching (first of all at the Paris Conservatoire after Catel, I think) and that still exists with many teachers of harmony. We may later have to discuss the role of Schenker in this, but obviously the importance given today to the matter of voice leading is the result of a clearer understanding of the respetive roles of counterpoint and harmony. And it might be argued, I think, that a relative lack of interest for voice leading rules in the 19th century was caused by the confusion that I mention above. In any case, I think it essential, in this WP article, to stress the link between voice leading and counterpoint. It is in this context that one can say (as was said before your modifications) that the rules are more relaxed in jazz or pop music.
Note that while voice leading rules may appear "pedagogical" today, they were thought in earlier times to be inherent in the music itself and to belong to what may have been considered musical universals. There is little need to enter here a dicussion of an "archeology of epistemology" à la Foucault, but as a historian of music theory I consider that reducing voice leading rules to pedagogical ones does not do justice to most of the history of these rules. About Huron's article, similarly, I'd say on the one hand that his claim that voice leading rules derive from perceptual principles is trivial, and on the other hand that he does not fully demonstrate that they originate in those particular principles that he describes – he does not really make that claim, either.
Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:40, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Second paragraph

message: Your modifications continue and you write:
:A more nuanced view of voice leading rules is found in the theories of Heinrich Schenker. Schenkerian analysis examines how the outer voices work together to establish form in common-practice music. See Linear progression for an example from Beethoven's Sonata op. 109.
I fail to imagine how you could consider Schenker's view "more nuanced". To begin with, more nuanced than what? If I were to describe Schenker's view of voice leading, I'd think as expressions such as "more developed", "more extraordinary", "more dramatic", or the like. The fact is, probably, that Schenker created the modern view of voice leading, the one which justifies the very existence of this WP article.
The statement that "Schenkerian analyses examines how the outer voices establish form" still leaves me utterly astonished, and your answer above does not clarify it. Nothing in Schenker's theory of form (which remains rather puzzling; see  for a recent publication) allows such a statement. You write above that the Schenkerian Urlinie describes permutations in the upper voices above the Bassbrechung. But upper voices + bass certainly are not the same thing as the "outer voices". The Urlinie describes "the most important pitches" only in a most abstract way: some of these pitches may not be present in the score at all (as in the Beethoven example in Schenkerian analysis#Linear progression). Frank Samarotto writes, in his abstract in the book mentioned above, that "Schenker’s Ursatz may be an effective model of tonal unity, but that very unity renders its connection with form unclear.": the connection that you make between Urlinie and form is highly questionable. But, more important, I think that deducing the Urlinie from the musical surface is only remotely related to describing the voice leading – and, if there were a relation, certainly not a "more nuanced" one.
Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:43, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Third paragraph

message: Later, you write:
:In the 19th century, as music pedagogy became a more theoretical discipline in some parts of Europe...
Can you explain that? Before the 19th century, voice-leading rules were described in treatises that were hardly pedagogical (e.g. Rameau's Traité). The creation of the Paris Conservatoire during the Revolution changed that and music theory became a concern of the Conservatoire's pedagogy. This, at least, is how I view the evolution, but you seem to envisage it the other way around...
Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:48, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Pedagogy?

message: I hesitate to do this but .... as an average reader with a decent grasp of the English language and some acquaintance with a variety of music (I built pipe organs at one time, but my favorite musician is perhaps Alice Cooper), the paragraph below is far better than the jargon-filled meaningless mishmash which Mr Woodrow has introduced.
"Voice leading (American) or part-writing (British), is the set of rules regulating the melodic movements of individual parts (voices) in all kinds of polyphonic music, or the application of these rules by the composer, especially in a Western classical music context. The expression "voice leading" is used for any kind of music that can be considered to include several voices, i.e. for instrumental ensembles, solo polyphonic instruments (keyboard instruments, lutes, guitars, harps and the like) or vocal ensembles."
In fact, this paragraph is more concise and explanatory than the paragraph which now introduces the article and I wish I hadn't had to come to the talk page to read it.  Woodrow, my dear, you do not make me proud to be an Amurrican :(  The entire country seems to have gone off on a tangent where we can't actually do anything, but boy can we blab and blab until the facts are so well obfuscated that no one has any idea what we are talking about. That probably comes from prioritizing the "finance" so-called industry over every other aspect of life, but I digress ... I vote for a return to the quoted introduction. 116.231.74.1 (talk) 09:00, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fools Rush In ...  

message: The analysis given in the article as an example of "neo-riemannian theory" is wrong - and the analysis is otherwise rather straightforward: the soprano voice is clearly moving by consecutive ascending thirds (not by any measure an odd movement) throughout the shown section (D#-F#, E-G, F#-A, then in a step-wise motion (passing through the G) resolves the F (the subdominant of C major) of the G dominant 7th chord to the E (the mediant), while the alto mimics the soprano a sixth lower (F#-A, G-B, A-C, and then holding a B to resolve on the tonic of the following C major chord on the second beat of bar 8 of the prelude). And the bass is simply harmonizing in arpeggios (E minor - B dominant 7th - E minor - D dominant 7th (5th degree of G) - G dominant 7th (5th degree of C) - C major ...). As such, I have removed the WP:OR from the article (since it had no ref anyway) and removed the image as well. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 22:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to make this clear: the Bach piece is much better served with an analysis according to standard classical harmony concepts, which were likely familiar to Bach himself (which is also what I just did in the above comment) than some more modern ideas which probably don't have much link with the compositional ideas present in the piece. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 22:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me just ask for a clarification from you here: Are you familiar with the principles of Neo-Riemannian theory, and find fault with the example in that framework, or are you objecting that "Bach didn't think that way" (as you seem to be saying)? The illustration you removed was meant to illustrate the accompanying phrase, "Neo-Riemannian theory ... decomposes movements from one chord to another into one or several 'parsimonious movements' between pitch classes instead of actual pitches (i.e., neglecting octave shifts)." It seems to me that it did a perfectly adequate job of making clear what that means. If you disagree, could you please explain to me what I am missing, preferably with citations from the literature?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am objecting that Bach most certainly did not think that way. If you want to have an illustration identifying the accompanying phrase, then make sure there is also a source for that (since the analysis (although, yes, it was correct) that was present didn't have one), and don't analyse a piece with concepts which are not (or maybe loosely) related with it's composition (for example, analyzing any fugue simply according to the rules of harmony and voice-leading (and ignoring that a fugue is not primarily vertical writing (i.e. harmony), that it's more horizontal (i.e. counterpoint - repetition of the thematic material and of the counter-subject(s) among the voices)) would be equally wrong). 135.23.202.24 (talk) 00:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

text: Well, let me gently point out that this article is about voice-leading theory, not about Bach's compositional thought processes. It is also just your opinion that Bach did not or could not have thought in this way (unless of course you are prepared to offer a reliable source to support that position). You are perfectly correct that the illustration was not attributed to a source, and it was mainly for this reason that I did not revert your edit immediately. If in fact it is taken (as I suspect it may be) from the cited book by Tymoczko, then it should say so. If this can be ascertained, would you have any further objection to its inclusion? (An indignant refutation of the analytical validity for Bach on historical grounds would, of course, require its own reliable source.)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if there is a source analyzing that particular piece of Bach in that way (and then, I guess that probably more reliable sources would analyze said piece (if they do analyze it) in the "traditional" classic way), then yes I'll let it stand, and I'll keep my opinion about Bach's compositional thought processes (and the general ideas and applications of tonal harmony) to myself. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 02:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

text: Right. I have checked Richard Cohn's article (cited in that paragraph), and the Bach example is not his. On to Tymoczko, then. If it is not there, then the example must be considered original research, and has no place here.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:34, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Bach example is not in Tymoczko, it comes from a paper given by N. Meeùs at the Mannes Schenker Symposium in 2013 and that I had read. It was to be published in Gamut 7/2, 2014, but that publication appears, say, ... postponed. Awaiting this publication (which may never come), it probably remains original research for the time being, unless the author published it elsewhere. I'll try to know more about that. In any case, I agree with Jerome Kohl that Bach's opinion about this analysis isn't really relevant. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 07:16, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Realizing that the example under discussion has in the meanwhile been published, I restored it with its reference in Gamut. I modified the caption because it has not been published as an example of neo-Riemannian theory, but as one of Schenkerian Uebergreifen. It certainly is a modern view of voice leading and could illustrate neo-Riemannian as well as Schenkerian theory. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:06, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analysis of the Bach piece, BWV 941