Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/Archive 11

message: I have initiated an alternate discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)/comma for all cities to discuss whether we would be able to build consensus towards naming article about all citites and towns using City, State or City, Country style. This would be a big change which would require careful introduction if it were able to be agreed on. --Scott Davis Talk 10:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yet another proposal

message: An idea would be for all sides to agree to a "cease fire" of sort. (No new page move request to Cityname only and no action to move the current exceptions back to City, State). Let the dust settle on this for a month (and archive this page!). Then open up Dec with either Tariq's or Scott's proposal and try to get as much outside community input as we can. Leave that poll open for 2-3 weeks and see what kind of consensus we get. If there is no consensus move on to the next proposal. Again I think it's vital for the credibility of any proposal/compromise that comes out of this discussion to have as broad of a sampling consensus as possible. Plus "new blood" and new sets of eyes can be more productive then the "regulars" on this page debating the same points back and forth. I know that I, personally, would not have a problem with Tariq's proposal if it had the credibility of a clear consensus among a broad sampling of editors taking part in the discussion. (I would hope at least 50-60 editors taking part) I would also hope that some of the CITYNAME only folks would feel the same way if Scott's proposal passed with such a clear consensus. Right now I don't think either proposal would get anywhere near that amount of participation (Outside of vote stacking which no one would want) and so I think it would be best to have a "cease fire". What do you guys think? Agne 20:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * I don't think there is harm in a continuing discussion (kinda like what they are doing with Scott's) but what is going above is a vote. I would also like to see this issue resolve but I don't think there is prudence to being impatient at this point. It is absolutely vital to the credibility of either proposal (Scott or Tariq's) to have a clear consensus from a broad sampling of community consensus or else nothing will be accomplished. Considering the large number of articles affected and the recent events with the US Highway debate, a token consensus made among the same 15 editors will have little weight. Unfortunately, even at this point, without the interjection of the fresh blood that encouraging a broad sampling of community consensus would give, the discussions among the same 15 editors will just be a recycling of the same discussions we've been having. If someone wants to follow Serge's footstep and add a "But wait!!! Come back! We have a ANOTHER proposal to vote on now" message to the Village Pump, active proposal and all the City pages, it might help to bring in some more views. But I'm worried that the folks who stopped by during Serge's proposal will either get confused with the proposal merry-go-round or not realize we have a new proposal.Agne 07:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cease fire? 

message: The argument has been made here that the U.S. isn't building new cities; with the implication that we have a fixed set of names, so it is easy to tell which are unambiguous. That conclusion does not follow. Aberdeen, New Jersey used to be Matawan Township, New Jersey; Ocean Township, New Jersey changed its name, in the past election, to Toms River, New Jersey. Now both names for Aberdeen require disambiguation; Ocean Township has, I think, moved from one that does to one that doesn't. But how does the poor editor, or reader, know, without consulting a place-name guide before consulting an encyclopedia? 
That's why we should dismbiguate pre-emptively, as we do with royalty; see WP:NC (names and titles). As with royalty, a few cases, like Los Angeles, are so well known as not to need dabbing. Septentrionalis 18:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, this is the rationale for why only a limited set should be exceptions, and also why the burden should always be on the part of those who want a move.  At any rate, as I've said before, I think Tariq's proposal, as currently worded, would more or less correct most of the problems that those of us who dislike the current convention have seen, without opening things up to much more radical change that many wisely wish to avoid.  john k 18:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

text: This is a non-issue and an argument that has been rejected in other contexts. Moving an article once an ambiguity issue is discovered is painless and practically automatic. It doesn't make sense to pre-disambiguate every city just because some might need to be disambiguated eventually. Note that Aberdeen (unqualified) is the city in Scotland, even though there are dozens of other places named Aberdeen, further evidence that the supposed "consistency" argument falls apart when you consider all cities, not just those in the US. -Anþony 08:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming

message: Anything from here down are my views on a "working model" made from the above elements.
====Optimal solutions?====
The "City, State" format is tenacious probably because it is both "comfortable" (US common usage) and "naturally disambiguated" (without being identifiably so). Yet from an encyclopaedic point of view it is rather pointless - it provides an only 'in-part' additional administrative information, and this information is only useful to those who are familiar with the state itself. It is probably for both these reasons that Encyclopaedias (US and foreign) do not disambiguate using the City, State method. In fact, most encyclopaedias do not disambiguate at all. But Wiki is not paper, and it must disambiguate. Thus, since disambigation is obligatory and unavoidable, best have an easily-identifiable disambiguation method to avoid its confusion with conventions.
Personally I think that "Cityname" should be the standard, but with bracket disambiguation, any disambiguation would be possible. For example the US could retain "City, State" and France could retain "City" as long as any "disambiguation words" outside the identifiable "country convention" are placed between brackets. Personally I don't see the sense in "City, State" but at least with this separation, a switch won't be painful.
If there is one additional thing to add, that would be that I see much logic in creating a convention whereas a "city locale" is always followed by its city (separated by a comma) as the risk of conflict at this level is great enough to merit this rule, and frankly it seems logical that placename below the "placename" administrative level (town, etc) should be identified with its owner.
I think that about sums it up. THEPROMENADER 19:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IV - in light of the above 

message: The "City, State" format is tenacious probably because it is both "comfortable" (US common usage) and "naturally disambiguated" (without being identifiably so). Yet from an encyclopaedic point of view it is rather pointless - it provides an only 'in-part' additional administrative information, and this information is only useful to those who are familiar with the state itself. It is probably for both these reasons that Encyclopaedias (US and foreign) do not disambiguate using the City, State method. In fact, most encyclopaedias do not disambiguate at all. But Wiki is not paper, and it must disambiguate. Thus, since disambigation is obligatory and unavoidable, best have an easily-identifiable disambiguation method to avoid its confusion with conventions.
Personally I think that "Cityname" should be the standard, but with bracket disambiguation, any disambiguation would be possible. For example the US could retain "City, State" and France could retain "City" as long as any "disambiguation words" outside the identifiable "country convention" are placed between brackets. Personally I don't see the sense in "City, State" but at least with this separation, a switch won't be painful.
If there is one additional thing to add, that would be that I see much logic in creating a convention whereas a "city locale" is always followed by its city (separated by a comma) as the risk of conflict at this level is great enough to merit this rule, and frankly it seems logical that placename below the "placename" administrative level (town, etc) should be identified with its owner.
I think that about sums it up. THEPROMENADER 19:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Optimal solutions?