Talk:Celtic cross

message: I would like some precisions about 2 affirmations :
<< Though other explanations of the Christian combination of circle and cross have been made, it should be noted that the "Celtic" cross is rare outside the former extent of Odin's cult. >>
*It should be precised the extent of Odin's cult ! In Ireland ? Certainly not in Britanny (despite Vikings' raids), where there are numerous Celtic crosses. And numerous "sun crosses" can be found in south of France and Hiberia.
<< A form of this symbol [sun cross] – with the arms of the cross extended beyond the perimeter of the circle – was adopted by Christians who often extended the lower arm in the manner of a Christian cross. >>
*Is it any proof of this "adoption" ? Or is it stated because a close representation ? Such a simple symbol may have different origins, no connected. When the Christian cross was held in Ireland, it was the Latin cross (lower arm extended). In an other way, we can say there are crosses in circles before the Christian era, but can we state a link ? In my opinion, the Christian cross come from the cross where Jesus died, and then adapted to various representations, which was easy with such an elementary symbol. Gwalarn 20:02, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Re old stuff, now gone

message: I moved the following text to this page. It looks like OR unsupported by any other researcher, and there are a number of missing facts: which instrument?, how was is it used?, was it actually used?
:According to a theory by Crichton Miller, a Scottish researcher, the celtic cross, or rather the instrument that bears remarkable resemblance to celtic cross could have been used by Egyptian and European civilizations for nautical navigation. Depending on the size of the cross, it could allow to determine the geographical position on Earth to within 3 miles.
BillC 09:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Navigational Use

message: Is this bit about the word 'cross' coming from vikings definite, only i thought i remembered reading somewhere that it had come from irish..?
I remember the book in question saying that the two words were both used for a while and i think it was cited as one of the few irish/celtic? words to be adopted into english... I may be wrong it was a long time ago and I cant even remember the book title!
I was always under the impression that the word cross came from Norse 'Kors', meaning cross. 91.105.157.243 (talk) 15:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: cross/rood

message: I added a reference to the pre-Christian origins (or symbolism of the celtic cross) as an example the Callanish Stones on the isle of Lewis. It was constructed 3000BC and is celtic cross shaped. If anyone knows of another example please feel free to add. .Celtic Harper 10:10, 25th July 2006 (UTC)
Should it perhaps also be noted that the general design of the temple at newgrange is essentially a celtic cross (which dates to 3200BC)?
: I don't think you can call the design of a temple as a celtic cross, it has to do more with the knot work and the portrayal of a symbol on objects.... I don't know, Find a source that calls it one.SADADS (talk) 02:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre-Christian

message: In heraldry the celtic cross is known as the cross nowy (from the old French for 'knotted').
:"noué", knotted Gwalarn (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''[[Cross nowy]]'' 

message: Too much is uncited.  In my opinion, it is nonsense as well.  If cites can be found, it can stand, otherwise it goes.  Google "Celtic cross nationalist" and this article turns up first.  patsw (talk) 22:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political symbol 

message: People seem to be confusing the original Celtic cross with the Celtic Christian cross. As the article points out, the Celtic cross is pre-Christian in origin. This is the original version (notice the arms of equal length) and this is the Christian version (notice the bottom arm is longer than the rest). The Christian version was often (but not always) used for high crosses. ~Asarlaí 15:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How common was the pre-Christian circle cross?Rakovsky (talk) 01:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

text: What source do we have that distinguishes? SADADS (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's an indisputable fact that this symbol is pre-Christian, and this symbol did not appear until Europe was Christianized. The latter is always used in a Christian context. Hence, the former is the 'original' version and the latter is the 'Christian' version. ~Asarlaí 18:09, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

text: See note 4 etc. That both derive from Early Christian "victor's wreaths" on crosses is accepted by many scholars. Johnbod (talk) 02:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original version v Christian version 

message: This usage should be mentioned in the article, I think. I just heard it on NPR. Wikipedia also says so here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_symbolism  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.38.175 (talk) 14:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I was surprised also that this wasn't listed as a use in the article. I added a ref from the ADL hate symbols handbook and a small line in other usage Ianboggs (talk) 02:29, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The mention should specify where this occurs, & bear WP:UNDUE in mind. For every fascist website using it, there are 100,000 graves & war memorials where it has no such connotation. Johnbod (talk) 04:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your point is entirely moot. The swastika used to be a sacred symbol in many ancient religions and it appears in various works of art (pottery, sculpture, frescoes) from the ancient times of Greece, India & other such countries, but now it is prominently used by fascists. I understand your annoyance, but please do not complain to Wikipedia for documenting the appropriation and use of the Celtic Cross by fascists. Instead, complain to the fascists themselves - but even if the fascists pay heed to your grievance and stop using the Celtic Cross, Wikipedia will still document the usage of this symbol. We merely document things here. Thank you. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 08:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  fascist symbol 

message: Quote: "In Germany, the Celtic cross was adopted by a prohibited neo-Nazi party (VSBD/PdA) but its public display was not banned by the German government"
This is in strict contrast with the German wikipedia article which explicitly states that the celtic cross is banned in Germany, thereby referring to decision 0209/08 of the Supreme Court of Germany, see . Guidod (talk) 08:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You going to find a source and fix it? Sadads (talk) 11:24, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reference is given. Guidod (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Whether you like it or not, Wikipedia documents facts - and it is a fact that neo-nazi groups have taken over several ancient religious symbols. I recommend taking your grievance to them instead of Wikipedia. Then again, it's a lot safer to complain to a bunch of people who try to compose an encyclopedia than confronting racist thugs. Moderatelyaverage (talk) 20:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banned in Germany 

message: I'd like to remind editors and potential editors of this article about WP:NPOV and WP:SOAP when it comes to the term British Isles. As much as some groups (governments included) and individuals may find the term British Isles distasteful when applied to "these islands" - it remains the case that the term has applied to these islands for far longer than have ideas like a united Ireland, or even a United Kingdom. The term itself comes, through Greek and Latin, from the original Celtic name for the islands. I can't say I'm exactly happy with the term, but NPOV and SOAP dictate I keep my views out of the articles and stick to the facts. Obviuously, this is open for discussion and I'm no dictator, but it seems fairly clear-cut to me. Jack of Many (talk) 04:14, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "British Isles" 

message: The expression "Celtic cross" for crosses outside Ireland and a part of Great-Britain is clearly abusive (except those imitated from there). The French examples are not Celtic crosses (and there are less in Brittany than in Normandy or in Limousin) and the Galician crosses too. There are crosses with nimbus, but not Celtic crosses, the Celtic crosses are a kind of crosses with nimbus. They correspond to an evolution of the discoidal slabs we can find everywhere. Just a look on this well-made site http://sgdelestaing.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.htm. Regards Nortmannus (talk) 20:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at this, everybody is Celtic probably http://www.entrelacs-knots.net/les-formes/les-entrelacs-g%C3%A9om%C3%A9triques/les-4-feuilles-4f/ and this http://www.flickr.com/photos/49792992@N02/4598925871/ Genova Italy. Nortmannus (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Or the Saint-Maur cross. Saint Maur was Italian http://www.assomption.org/Presentations/CroixDeSaintMaur.htm RegardsNortmannus (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Hi Froaringus and Johnbod, we must be prudent with such "historical" comparisons. Why would have the Britons imported this very specific Galician type of cross in Galicia, where they did not import the Brythonic language and why did they not import it in Britanny where they imported their language (that is to say a bigger influence in Britanny) ? May be is there an influence from monks from the British Isles and Britanny, but we must define it precisely. This type of cross in Galicia is more likely a local development from cross patterns from different countries, different traditions and the result of different influences. There are to many similarities in the sort of flower-shaped design of the Galician crosses with the Basque steles (f.e; itxassou stele) and many decorative elements we can find at the romanesque churches in the southwest of France (see f.e. Esnandes in Saintonge for the interlacings  and Marolles further to the north , etc.) and there is one point that should be mentioned : the Celtic crosses are high crosses, that is not the case of the Galician crosses, that are short in the tradition of the southwestern steles, never high crosses. The German article is much better done as far as I can jugde the text.Regards.Nortmannus (talk) 09:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celtic cross ? 

message: I would be grateful for other editors views on whether or not the section titled "Nationalist use" should be changed. A unregistered IP user with a poor edit warring record has twice changed the sub-head and text to "Neo-Nazi", including a spelling error to "Neo-nazist". I have reverted these edits  as I feel the wording Nationalist is more neutral. Would other editors care to comment? David J Johnson (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Nationalism is not neutral, it's simply far too broad a term. See List of nationalist organizations. Celtic crosses are used by 'white' nationalist groups, not nationalists in general. One revert is not edit warring. The fact that I'm "A [ sic ] unregistered IP user"  is irrelevant. 79.97.226.247 (talk) 20:42, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

text: White nationalism ? You can't just say "nationalists" without saying which. Who does actually use the symbol, and where? I suspect use is very local and small-scale.  Johnbod (talk) 18:59, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationalist use 

message: I suggest moving the lower part of this article to a new article named 'Cross and circle symbols', as these are certainly not Celtic Crosses. A Celtic Cross has one of it's four parts longer than the other three - the lower vertical part which holds the cross in the ground. A Celtic Cross also has Christian conotations; the ones at the bottom of the article do not. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 11:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Would agree with that - certainly, every cross with a nimbus cannot be referred to as a "Celtic cross". Hohenloh  +   15:31, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell that to Cadw! Johnbod (talk) 01:51, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern 'Celtic Crosses' 

message: I suggest that the sections entitled "Nationalist Usage" and "Zodiac Killer" should be moved to the article on Sun Crosses.  There is no basis, other than the similarity in shape to conflate the main topic of Celtic Crosses discussed in this article with these two topics. White Supremacists groups, like the Nazi's before them, are attempting to tap into the Wagnerian Nordic myth and thus the use of an "Odin's Cross".  The image on the flag showing a cross with arms of equal length and proportionate to the circle is not a representation of a Celtic cross. As the article states, no one knows why the Zodiac killer used a circle and cross symbol to sign his letters, so why then should we imply by its inclusion in this article that the killer was attempting to tie in to the image of a Celtic cross?  The killer could have just as easily been trying to use the Astronomical symbol for the planet Earth or even Venus.   
A reference source such as Wiki should take great care and be conservative in conflating topics and thereby creating correlations that are not substantiated.  Ncosgrov (talk) 16:22, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is: there are a number of very good sources supporting the titling of these symbols as a celtic cross (the ADL points this out http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/celtic-cross.html#.U7LOLXWx3UY). I think being more explicit about the difference between the intention and usage by hate groups, and the actual heritage of the symbol (again per http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/celtic-cross.html#.U7LOLXWx3UY ). I have removed the Zodiac killer discussion: its not pertinent. Sadads (talk) 17:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

text: There may be many resources but they are incorrect, in fairness there is enough similarity in shape to lead to a misunderstanding for someone who is not familiar with the Celtic Cross. The image on the flag shown is not a Celtic cross: by definition a Celtic cross has a pronounced lower vertical; it is a Latin Cross conjoined with a circle.  It is very clear with the red banner, white circle and black symbol that the group using it is trying to make a Germanic, not a Celtic, connection. The symbol on the flag with equal length cross arms is definitely a variant of a sun cross, specifically the Germanic Odin's (or Woton's) Cross, and those would be the proper article to associate it . Ncosgrov (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nevertheless: Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth. Its not about whether or not the meaning or assertions are true, its about whether sources say that connection exists. I would rewrite the section about hate groups, with the caveat noted by the ADL, about groups calling them "celtic crosses" but likely having a connection to the other form of cross (here is the quote that I am focused on: "Although usually called a Celtic Cross by white supremacists, its origins date to the pre-Christian "sun cross" or "wheel cross" in ancient Europe. Norwegian Nazis used a version of the symbol in the 1930s and 1940s. After World War II, a variety of white supremacist groups and movements adopted the symbol.") We need to be noting the caveat around the name "celtic cross" even, when its not actually derived from it.  Sadads (talk) 21:34, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

text: The problem I am having here is that you are citing a very credible source but not capturing the great pains of that source, the ADL, is taking to prevent the conflation of a true Celtic Cross with what White Supremacist (not "Nationalists" as you title your paragraph) misidentify as a "celtic cross". The key is the very section you quote "Although usually called a Celtic Cross by white supremacists, its origins date to the pre-Christian "sun cross" or "wheel cross" in ancient Europe."  Your source is actually making a strong case for it being in a separate article.  Since, per your own source the symbols have different origins and different meaning they should be in different articles.
I've removed the section. It's completely off-topic and incorrect. The symbol the white nationalists use is a sun cross. Edgespath24 (talk) 14:21, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections on Nationalist Usage and Zodiac Killer Are Inappropriate to this Article 

message: Someone is changing the article to ignore archaeological evidence, here is the source to prove otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callanish_Stones#/media/File:Plan_of_the_Callanish_Stones.png
Solid evidence that is clear to the eye and sourced trumps artistic emotions and religious convictions. Please stop removing empirical evidence due to personal opinion. You can write a controversy section if you have a problem with it. Your opinion does not change the archaeological site and never will.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.96.135 (talk) 20:00, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As I keep telling you, you need references - see WP:OR and WP:V. A stone circle accessed by processional approaches does not make a "Celtic cross" - otherwise why not add Stonehenge, and many other Neolithic sites in Europe?  Johnbod (talk) 20:05, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Have to agree.  I don't know what these stones have to do with this article. Hohenloh  +   19:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There is absolutely no reliable evidence whatsoever for this "Celtic Cross" theory in relation to Callanish Stones. It is purely WP:OR and WP:V and any further contributions, without professional citations, linking this site with a later symbol will be reversed. David J Johnson (talk) 19:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Callanish Stones reference 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: I'm referring to "This stems from the use of the Celtic cross by Norwegian Nazis during World War II." I don't know if it's true or not, either way I feel the source is lacking. 
"Norwegian Nazis used a version of the symbol in the 1930s and 1940s." 
This is the only information relating to the statement on the wikipedia page.
Since I'm a novice regarding editing I thought I'd at least let my opinion heard here, and let someone more experience decide.
Wiki   - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_cross
Source - https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/celtic-cross  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Invasivart (talk • contribs) 08:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this source credible enough? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It seems pretty clear to me from the discussion history on this page that there was once a time when this article documented this symbol's use in Neo Nazi/white supremacist imagery. However, the discussions do not make it clear when or why this was removed. It seems somewhat suspicious that this information was ostensibly removed without consensus. Elijah (talk) 19:13, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  An update: I've found the section where the resolution was reached, and I have no major disagreements. Elijah (talk) 19:14, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where? Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 09:52, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo Nazi symbolism 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Novgorod cross and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 June 13#Novgorod cross until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  signed, Rosguill talk 18:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Novgorod cross" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: The Celtic Cross I believe predates Christianity, there is plenty of information online that seems to confirm this. This article clearly shows stone that have and etches cross with a circle before the birth of Christ, there are a lot more. Is there some problem with including this information? I see that this symbol has been appropriated by some nasty people is this the reason? Because you should still include truth. The Irish flag and the St Andrews Cross get appropriated every time there is a soccer tournament. I have never posted here before I was watching an Irish movie so I looked this up and Wikipedia seemed at odds with reality, if I have done something wrong please tell me.
https://irishfireside.com/2015/02/03/history-symbolism-celtic-cross/ Joncurl (talk) 19:57, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre Christian Origins 

message: There is no findings of pagan sun wheels in the ancient Gaelic world. It therefore makes no sense to suggest that the Celtic Christian cross was based on a pre-Christian symbol that never existed.The white supremacistmversion of the symbol is also an incorrect representation as Celtoc crosses are not shaped with equal lengths like it depicts. 84.203.148.201 (talk) 22:21, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Celtic cross does not have pre-Christian origins