Talk:Partnership minyan

message: I believe IZAK's May 3 edits have raised a number of misconceptions about Partnership Minyanim. Because of these potential misconceptions, I believe it would be useful both to expand discussion of what these minyanim actually do, and to have a section providing more detail on arguments against them. 
::I appreciate this thought.  The problem is though that this is a WIKIPEDIA, and ENCYCLOPEDIAS, not a forum for the exploration and debate of alternate Jewish practices and there validity under Halacha.  The facts should be stated clearly, and annotated as necessary.  There should be no politicking, and debate should be minimalized (in the general) to only theories which have mainstream research support.  Social debate can be had on soc.culture.jewish on usenet.  this is NOT a place to debate Halacha.
In particular, (a) IZAK added a discussion of an Ezrat Nashim in a way that implies there isn't one. But there is. A partnership Minyan has a mechitza and women stay in the women's section at all times. Ensuring this while permitting women to lead certain prayers requires certain liturgical innovations, such as the 2 shtenders (reader's lecturns) and the michitza going right through the middle of the bima (as discussed in Shira Hadasha's website), which ensures that men and women do indeed stay on their respective sides during aliyot. Also, the women's section occupies 50% of the room, but IZAK cites no halachic source limiting it to a particular size. (b) IZAK raises the issue of Kol Isha. Many have this objection, but this actually isn't the most numerically prominent objection. There are many Modern Orthodox rabbis who do not hold the haredi view of Kol Isha, far more than accept Mendel Shapiro's idea that the "dignity of the congregation" can be waived. The more liberal view is that Kol Isha applies under more limited circumstances, and some limit it to the recitation of the Shema which was its original context. Presenting one view of this controversial issue as "normative" (IZAK's words) would be inconsistent with NPOV. --Shirahadasha 16:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible misconcpetions

message: While I'm not sure I agree with IZAK's forceful tone above and comparisons with the Tzedukim and Baytusim, I agree that Shirahadasha is editing to promote the POV that such a minyan is indeed halakhically valid. The two "rabbinic authorities" take controversial positions while having, shall we say, limited acceptance in the general rabbinate. IZAK is correct in pointing out that being a great lamdan does not a posek make.
Obviously there are big problems. If women read keriat ha-Torah, the trop is zemer and there is an immediate problem of kol isha. Most poskim hold by the Rosh and Shulkhan Arukh that kol isha is assur at all times, not just during keriat Shema. Suddenly deciding that you're going to pick Hai Gaon's shitta is highly innovative, contrary to precedent and minhag, and probably divisive.
Most Haredim (and indeed many Modern Orthodox) are somewhat weary of innovation for the sake of accomodating political correctness. The Chatam Sofer said "hadash assur min ha-Torah" (a play on words) - innovation is in contradiction with the Torah. If people need to radically modernise halakha to promote adherence, how much is halakha worth? Can we not also change some kashrut laws to some obscure Rishon whose opinion is not codified?
Obviously Shira Hadasha is a fairly small community, and no prominent spokespeople have yet denounced its aims. That does not mean that we in Wikipedia cannot say "these views are not shared by the majority of the poskim" - which is easily verifiable. Because by default today's halakhic authorities will not approve of the Shapiro/Sperber innovations. JFW | T@lk 11:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The request for sources for objections is based solely on WP policies. WP requires article content to come from external sources rather than unsourced personal knowledge or opinion. This request shouldn't be construed as part of or affecting any sort of debate or discussion of the underlying issues. My intention is solely to ensure that views are properly sourced.  --Shirahadasha 13:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: As an FYI, I don't think the argument against certain of your positions is as weak as you may think. New Jewish customs have come into existence continually; Chasidic Judaism introduced quite a few. The streimal is only about 200 years old. Nor is a narrow view of kol isha such an innovation. As the Ben Cherney article points out, German Jewry had a long-established custom of a narrow view of kol isha regarding e.g. zemirot, which gained wide acceptance in the Modern community. And nobody is suggesting that traditional practice is wrong. For example, the Shapiro article, which suggests that a congregation may waive its dignity, takes great pains to clarify that it is in no way required to do so. It might be useful to read the specific arguments and respond to them in a more specific and measured fashion. My point is not to change your opinion; you may well continue to regard the views involved as minority and dubious. --Shirahadasha 13:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you seriously comparing Hasidic Judaism (a movement that sought to revert to a more stringent form of observance) to a Feminist minyan which has more in common with the thrusts of Reform Judaism in its desire to be more liberal? Is a "shtreimel" anything like a lady "cantilating" in shull? If one thinks so, that would indeed be poor thinking and an example of failed logic and clearly a gross distortion of Jewish history (more precisely, the history of Orthodox Judaism). Sure, what German Jewry did around its Shabbat-meal tables in the privacy of the homes of its good Jews was fine, it was not based on modern Feminism (which is the touted axiomatic banner of the new Feminist minyanim), but please note, that what the German Jews did was done only in the privacy of individual homes (and who knows what happened in all the homes?). One cannot axtrapolate from what is done in private Jewish homes to make it into the basis of a "policy" (read: "a new "halakha") to transform any known synagogue services (again, this is poor logic and falls into the mistake of equating "apples with oranges"), which would require the involvement and intervention of Halakhic minds and accepted authorities far, far greater than the point-of-fact very minor individuals you cite, and there are certainly none of this caliber to be relied upon today (even among Haredim), a point which you conveniently overlook. The arguments are a waste of time as they are based on erroneous understandings of Jewish law and the Torah world in its entirety and display a poor application of simple logic. IZAK 05:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Regarding your view that the Jewish sages expound that Hakol she bisha erva -- that EVERYTHING (in Hebrew hakol -- sounds the same as kol and not just her "voice" -- kol) about a woman is "lewdness" (meaning having a highly sexual quality as far as a male is concerned) and thus a woman should neither sing nor appear anywhere in an Orthodox synagogue because it's a pathway to connecting with her sexuality, which is not an "agenda" for a synagogue, needless to say. -- I think it safe to say that I regard this as an extreme view, since it seems to suggest that a woman shouldn't be in a synagogue at all, even with a mechitza. And I would certainly regard this view as a hashkafic, not a halakhic, view, and far from universal. Are there any Jewish communities in the world today where woman remain silent and only rarely leave the home? And how in the world do you explain e.g. female prophetesses, female nazirites, women's obligation to appear in Jerusalem for the korban pesach, the korbanot for childbirth, etc.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shirahadasha (talk • contribs) 
Hi, you have not signed your comments with the four tildes ~~~~ so it's hard to know who is repsonding. Note, it is not "my view" that I expressed, but the point is that Torah Judaism, today known as Orthodox Judaism, has never been as liberal as you mention. No-one suggests that women shouldn't be in an Orthodox synagogue, they may choose to do so if they so desire, but there has never been any attempt to organize services around or for them. Jewish women are fully allowed to be in the Ezrat nashim ("ladies section") preferably built on an upper floor as a gallery obscured or covered from the men's side, which is literally their domain as it was in the Jewish Temples (upon which a synagogue is modeled) and no-one is saying that women do not have other important leadership roles. Obviously there is a time and place for everything -- but not at the expense of the age old adhered-to principle of kol kevudah bat melech penimah ("the entire glory of the king's daughter is internal/within" -- i.e. "behind closed doors"). Another answer is that because Jewish women are patur ("exempt") from mitzvos aseh she'hazman grama ("time-bound commandments") -- except those that carry a punishment of karet ("heavenly excision/excommunication") -- which is not the case with both kriat sh'ma ("reciting the Shma Yisrael") and tefila, particularly tefila betzibur ("praying with the congregation"), which are purely only encumbent on Jewish men since women are not required to pray three times a day on weekdays nor to pray the shemonei esreis of Shabbat (unless they voluntarily wish do so, an option not given to men). Thus since Jewish women are not obligated to have to recite the detailed shemoneh esreis, it would thus be correct to say that there is no real need, and certainly no commandment for women to attend synagogue on a religious (i.e. regular) basis if at all, so this entire project to have women as part of a "minyan" is not just moot but also probably a huge waste of time (brocha levatalah) and perhaps even a chilul Hashem ("desecration of God's name") if pushed in a manner closer to a "Feminist jihad" than to any known tradition of synagogue service in the long history of Orthodox Judaism. IZAK 05:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow, a 182-word sentence. Well done. :-D SlimVirgin (talk) 05:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure Slim: No problem! IZAK 06:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "It was asked: "Speak to the children of Israel and he shall lay" [his hand on the offering Lev.1:2-4] -- the sons of Israel lay their hands, but the daughters do not? R. Jose and R. Simeon say: The daughters of Israel may lay their hands, although they are not required to. R. Jose said: Abba Eliezar told me the following: Once we had a calf to be offered as a shelamim sacrifice and we brought it to the women's court and women laid their hands on it. Not because laying of hands applies to women, but to allow the women to feel pleased." (Talmud Hagigah 16b)
As the example illustrates, women have been desiring to participate in non-obligatory public worship since at least the days of the Beit HaMikdash. The response suggests that the Rabbis, while not radical feminists, also didn't regard these sorts of requests as being either a complete waste of time or a chillel Hashem. It is perhaps not so unorthodox to suggest considering the general attitude with which the Rabbis responded to women's requests in the days of real bulls, as having perhaps some relevance to our attitude, if not any specific ruling, in how we think about women's requests to participate in matters of "the offering of our lips" that substitutes for them (Hosea 14:3). --Shirahadasha 06:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: But, nonetheless, they were neither wasting their time, nor performing a chilul hashem, nor fundamentally tampering with anything. The question here is not one of specific rulings, it is one of general attitude. That's all the example is about. The halakhic issues of course depend on their individual merits. --Shirahadasha 06:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shira: To say "halakhic issues of course depend on their individual merits" is to reveal a far too casual and wishy-washy notion of what Halacha truly is. The Feminist minyans are proposing a serious change, and hence break, with the way Halakha has heretofore been applied and practiced. It does little good to conjure up words from the Talmud to bolster shaky arguments. Are the proponents of Feminist minyans performing a kiddush Hashem ("sanctification of God's name") then when they seek to go against their own Orthodox fathers' and mothers' practices? Surely not! Where is the lo tasur ("you shall not move") from the ways of the sages, here? On what basis are you equating Jewish women in the Jewish Temples of 2,000 years ago with modern 20th century Feminists? Yet again, you commit an error of false comparison and poor logic. Are the heirs to the traditions of the Jewish Temple, namely the majority of noted and respected Talmudic sages saying what you imply and quote here? That is the crux of the matter. You are assuming (falsely) that the situation today parallels what may have been true in the times of the Temples, an assertion that is most problematic. IZAK 07:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This has been an interesting conversation. It's clear we're not going to convince each other. Suffice it to say that there have been many innovations in Judaism that have endured and shaped what it is today. The Rambam's fusion of Jewish practice and Aristotelian philosophy, the writing and codification of the Oral Law, and the development of the Chassidic movement are but a few of the bigger of many examples. Most of the current prayer service, from the Kabbalat Shabbat to the Pesukei DeZimarah, was unheard of in the days of the Talmud. All of these developments and more were, at one time, sharply criticized.  Yet Judaism survived, and perhaps was enhanced by, them all. You give no reason to distinguish these innovations from others. Many of their inventors were obscure at the time they developed their innovations, and became famous (and Gedolai Hador) only later, after people began accepting what they had initially dismissed. If halakha prohibits new customs entirely rather than merely setting limits on them, none these things, which we take for granted today, could have happened. --Shirahadasha 02:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some points

message: All the criticism in the objections section will have to be sourced to reliable published sources or deleted as original research. Instead of saying "objectors," particular critics have to be named and cited, and then their arguments should either be quoted or paraphrased very closely, giving full citations. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you understand the editors objections.  The objections to feminism are well known in the orthodox world.  In fact they are so well know known it is hard to find sources that say explicitly that they are objectionable. The haredi community in particular has little interaction with these movements and has no need to write a strong rebuke of them as their objects are already well known. Responsa that deal tangentially with these issues already assume that the reader knows the problem with these practices.  However Rabbi Shlomo Aviner has written a little on the subject in Hebrew. Jon513 18:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of how well known it may be to some people, we're writing this article for readers who may not know it well, or even at all, and we need sources to conform to WP:NOR and WP:V. If these opinions are well known, someone reliable will have published them, and there are anyway positions stated in that section that have nothing to do with feminism. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: now that i think about it the article by rabbi Aviner is a very good summary of ideas in the orthodox community.  Jon513 18:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Here's an example. How about Feldheim's classic general critique of religious feminism "Orthodox Feminism and Feminist Orthodoxy" (Jewish Action, 1999)  (pdf) (Jewish Action, 1999). The article doesn't address all the Partnership minyan-specific issues, but provides some general objections to e.g. women's interest in traditional male, issues of tzniut, etc.  You are welcome to quote or paraphrase. --Shirahadasha 19:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: IZAK, Wikipedia is not the place for unsourced edits or original research. The article states that there is a movement to introduce partnership minyanim. It explains what the movement is and what a partnership minyan is, and why it's needed in the view of some people. No policy issues so far, because it's either all sourced or easy to source (and if you need a source for a particular point, please ask for one.) However, there is then a criticism section, which gives the opinions of unnamed sources. Those sources must be named, their opinions must have been published, and those publications must be cited, or else the section will be deleted. See WP:V. SlimVirgin 
(talk) 02:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Not sure which part of which effort you're calling silly, but thanks for finding the source. I'm sorry for inserting a couple of invisible questions, but because you called it a "summary," I didn't realize it was a quote. The article's looking quite a bit better now. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Slim: From the Haredi and Hasidic POV the new-fangled "partnership minyan" is worse than silly (it may be an outright blasphemy...) At any rate, no need to be sorry about anything, you are ever the first rate editor! The quotes from The Forward article are not "the source" in the absolute sense but it does "sum up" some of the objections and it does suffice for Wikipedia purposes. The underlying issues run far deeper than any newspaper article, which is why Shira has attempted to quote the many older rabbinic sources, but no-one but the "ultra-Modern Orthodox" buy into, and even many of them have serious doubts about it because the Jewish Orthodox Feminsist Alliance is basically viewed as a very radical organization outside the mainstream of Orthdodoxy, even Modern Orthodoxy. It's a debate that is taking place right now as we tap-tap on our keyboards... Be well. IZAK 06:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Slim:  Wikipedia is not the place to publish new unheard of "responsa" that tout Modern Orthodox Feminism POV articles about positions that that fly in the face of any known Orthodox Jewish practices that no-one has heard of before -- to do so would be the equivalant of ORIGINAL RESEARCH, which unfortunately this article itself, and not its objections, is guilty of! A little searching on Google will unearth many quotes of the sources to support the objections in any case. However, one should be aware that the langauge of the Talmud, the Shulkhan Arukh ("Code of Jewish Law"), Rabbinical literature and Responsa in general are very difficult to read, study and comperhend in their original Hebrew (or Aramaic, as the case may be) and that is why there are specialists, known as poskim ("decisors of Jewish law") who are relied upon to have the final say in matters of Jewish law, and no Wikipedia article should fly in the face of this reality as far as Orthdox Judaism is concerned, unless it wants to be guilty of "Original Research". What one will have here is basically references in articles available on the Internet that will cite many sources. None of us here is a "rabbinic authority" but as editors we are capable on reporing, describing and explaining for an encycplodia audience the reality of the situation and not a concocted version that only a very minor liberal minority maybe practices within Orthodox Judaism. IZAK 06:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IZAK, Wikipedia is not the place for unsourced edits or original research. The article states that there is a movement to introduce partnership minyanim. It explains what the movement is and what a partnership minyan is, and why it's needed in the view of some people. No policy issues so far, because it's either all sourced or easy to source (and if you need a source for a particular point, please ask for one.) However, there is then a criticism section, which gives the opinions of unnamed sources. Those sources must be named, their opinions must have been published, and those publications must be cited, or else the section will be deleted. See WP:V. SlimVirgin 
(talk) 02:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Not sure which part of which effort you're calling silly, but thanks for finding the source. I'm sorry for inserting a couple of invisible questions, but because you called it a "summary," I didn't realize it was a quote. The article's looking quite a bit better now. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Slim: From the Haredi and Hasidic POV the new-fangled "partnership minyan" is worse than silly (it may be an outright blasphemy...) At any rate, no need to be sorry about anything, you are ever the first rate editor! The quotes from The Forward article are not "the source" in the absolute sense but it does "sum up" some of the objections and it does suffice for Wikipedia purposes. The underlying issues run far deeper than any newspaper article, which is why Shira has attempted to quote the many older rabbinic sources, but no-one but the "ultra-Modern Orthodox" buy into, and even many of them have serious doubts about it because the Jewish Orthodox Feminsist Alliance is basically viewed as a very radical organization outside the mainstream of Orthdodoxy, even Modern Orthodoxy. It's a debate that is taking place right now as we tap-tap on our keyboards... Be well. IZAK 06:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourcing Jewish law is neither easy nor simple and is very tricky

message: Does anyone mind if I move the page to Partnership minyan? Or should both words be capitalized? SlimVirgin (talk) 14:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No strong views one way or the other --Shirahadasha 15:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You are correct it should be moved. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Lowercase_second_and_subsequent_words Jon513 17:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: Given our long discussion on (small-c) conservative objections, the same applies to liberal objections. Source please. Original research violates WP policy. As before, if objections are as general as claimed, reliable sources shouldn't be difficult to find.--Shirahadasha 00:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Liberal Objections

message: Recent article by Rabbi Moshe Kurtstag, Dayan and the Av Beit Din of the Orthodox community of South Africa. How can it be used in this article? IZAK 18:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: THOSE WHO ARE TAHOR MAKE THE FIRST [pesach offering] BUT THOSE WHO ARE TAMEI MAKE NEITHER THE FIRST NOR THE SECOND -- how will they explain it [the Breitah, i.e. how can this case arise]? Rav will explain it. [It refers to] a case where the male Jews were half tahor and half tamei, but women increased the tahor people [and turned them into the majority]. And [the Tannah of this Bereitah] holds that [the participation of] women [in the offering ] on the first [pesach] is obligatory, whereas [their participation] on the second [Pesach] is optional. On the first Pesach [those who are tamei] do not make [the offering] because they are a minority [of the total populace, which includes women] and a minority does not make pthe offering in tumah] on the first [Pesach]. And on the second [pesach] [those who are tamei] do not make [the offering, because since the participation of women on the second pesach is merely optional you must] subtract the women from the count [of the populace] with the result that [the counted ones] are half tahor and half tamei. And [the rule is that] half [of the populace] does not make [the offering] on the second   [Pesach]. (Pesachim 79b, Schottenstein Edition)
What do you make of that? If women aren't counted in Pesach offerings for which they are obligated, why can their numbers determine the majority status so that whether they are counted or not tips the scales? --Shirahadasha 03:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: IZAK, You're reading far too much into what I said and drawing an inference I never made. My point was to provide a single counterexample, a single case where women counted in the Beit HaMikdash for a single purpose, involving a single korban.  No modern p'sak of any kind is involved here. Counting for other purposes, and certainly counting in a contemporary synagogue minyan, are wholly different matters. I never drew any inference from one to the other. It sems to me you're also trying to read in an inference that a Partnership minyan counts women in the minyan of 10. It doesn't do this. Your source, which is focused on objections to women counting in a minyan, is clearly objecting to Conservative/Reform practices that simply aren't relevant here. Your source may well object to a partnership minyan on other grounds (e.g. women leading services), but it seems to me that on the minyan issue you're trying to create an impression that simply isn't accurate. Shabbat Shalom --Shirahadasha 22:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthodox objections, recent article from Beth Din head 

message: Would it be possible to provide a citation for the article in standard form including article title, journal volume number, etc., including mentioning the language if the article isn't in English. 
Also, would it be possible to provide a brief mention of the main argument, or a brief quote? Simple mention of the article's existence would better belong in "Further Reading" than the main body.  --Shirahadasha 16:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shochetman Article 

message: I almost put this up for AfD.
While I support all the principles behind the idea of a partnership minyan, I am not sure if it is notable.
Google search for "Partnership Minyan"
compare:-
Google search for "partnership minyan" -wiki -wikipedia -answers -blog -reference -blogspot -jewishblogging -wapedia -encyclopeedia -netipedia -spivo -tutorgig -jaime -jewess -homestayfinder -libraryoflibrary -arikah -entreaty -zdvolode -medbib -mbceo 
Once all the wikipedia results (and blog mentions and wikipedia clones) are removed there are only 4 results.  Two are from a JOFA website and one of them is from a wikipedia-clone that I couldn't exclude for some reason.
Google Scholar gives no results, as does Google books. Searching Google News Archives also gives no results.
It seems that all we have here is a form of worship that takes place in one shul in Katamon - Shira Hadasha. I would think that merging this into Shira Hadasha - without any loss of content would be a good idea. David Spart 20:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your search is overly strict, for example the removal of the word "answers" forced out at least one non blog, non-Wiki entry  and I supsect some of the others would have similar results. JoshuaZ 20:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it overly strict - the article you link to is the fourth result - i.e. even if you remove answer it is still there, so you are innocrect.  David Spart 20:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: What I mean to say is that it was not forced out by my strict search - which goes to evidence the fact that my search was not too strict. David Spart 20:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, didn't see it there. This is a good point. (Didn't we have an AfD of this article a while back?) JoshuaZ 20:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno.  I don't see one linked. David Spart 20:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't locate one. A few weeks Izak went through and nommed a number articles related to the more progessive(more npov word? egalitarian?) end of modern orthdoxy. This one must have escaped for some reason. JoshuaZ 20:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Is the hyphen in "Shira Hadasha-style" really essential? --Shirahadasha 22:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tried it without the hyphen it makes no difference. I think this should be merged into Shira Hadasha, ShiraHadasha. David Spart 22:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Try "shira hadasha minyan" and "partnership minyan". Not claiming there are a huge number of hits, only that there are enough articles and media reports to establish notability for a term that isn't limited to Shira Hadasha but includes a number -- more than one but perhaps two or three dozen -- of congregations and also, that there is a distinct, agreed-on type of service (not necessarily a distinct or agreed-on ideology or halachic methodology but a distinct, agreed-on type of service) that is both fairly standardized in what it does (sufficiently so to be encyclopedic) and notable. --Shirahadasha 00:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find any more non-trivial namechecks.
===Proposal===
This article should be merged into the Shirachadasha article.  Or merged into a more general article about egal minyanim.  Is there one?  But either way - most of the references seem to relate to egal minyanim in general.  What are your thoughts people?  David Spart 14:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, on reflection, I think you are correct. This is a good and interesting article anyway. I supose if this type of minyan would not be accepted by conservatives that makes il-egal whereas the othodox might think it to be l-egal!  David Spart 22:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: This article should be merged into the Shirachadasha article.  Or merged into a more general article about egal minyanim.  Is there one?  But either way - most of the references seem to relate to egal minyanim in general.  What are your thoughts people?  David Spart 14:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, on reflection, I think you are correct. This is a good and interesting article anyway. I supose if this type of minyan would not be accepted by conservatives that makes il-egal whereas the othodox might think it to be l-egal!  David Spart 22:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: The current summarization of the article reflects a unencyclopedic POV - it uses "points out" and other endorsement language that presents interpretations and opinions as fact. Also, it contains some basic errors that Rabbi Frimer almost certainly wouldn't make - the passage in Megilla 23a that Sperber relies on is a Beraita, not a Mishna as the summary text says, for example -- that a check to see if the summary reflects the source is in order. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 22:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Rewrote the section, attempting to use a more neutral tone while emphasizing what Frimer called his most important arguments. Best,  --Shirahadasha (talk) 23:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frimer article 

message: We might want consistent spelling of kevod ha-Tzibur and ha-Briyot (or bb yy etc). Are we allowed to change the transliteration within quotations? Or perhaps we could use the English equivalents more often for our general readership?
Also, shouldn't there be an article for kevod ha-Tzibur? Thanks. HG | Talk 13:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kevod terms