Talk:Degenerate art

message: I was listening to something about Stravinsky recently; apparently the Russian authorities considered certain things "degenerate art" too, such as jazz. -- Tarquin 15:15 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)
:I agree that the the article should be expanded to reflect such facts. At all times in modern history have figures of authority used their influence to define what is and what is not aesthetic or even "acceptable" art. However, as with so many things the Nazis brought things to a new level and introduced the term as we know it today. --snoyes 15:37 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)
::I think that when talking about the Russians, the word "decadent" is more common than "degenerate". I'm not sure there's a lot of difference between the two in practice - both were applied to anything the authorities thought was dangerous for whatever reason - but "degenerate art", as far as I know, is usually taken to mean art branded as such specifically by the Nazis. There is something to be said about music here, though: composers such as Krenek and Goldschmidt were called "degenerate", I believe. But I'm really not an expert, and I could be wrong about all of this. --Camembert
:::My understanding is that the Russians used "decadent" as a pejorative, but what they were really after was "formalism."  I don't understand Marxism well enough to go into much detail about formalism, but my vague understanding is that it had to do with being too abstract.  Since under Soviet Communism all artists and composers were state employees, the Communist State wasn't about to finance experimental music for its own sake; things had to be accessible to the masses, what they deemed too outré was slapped with the "formalism" label.  There is another sense of "decadent art", and that has mostly to do with the Symbolist movement; but this was mostly before the Soviet Union.  ---Ihcoyc
Camembert, "Sachlichkeit" is "objectivity", I actually added the German title because I found "Neue Sachlichkeit" translated as "New Functionalism", and recongnized that this was a wrong tranlation (at least literally). (Translation: http://www.wordreference.com/de/en/translation.asp?deen=sachlichkeit ) It is entirely plausible that Neue Sachlichkeit New Functionalism are the same things, just the latter more used in english and the former more in german, I do not know. It would be good if we could get some facts. --snoyes 16:11 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)
:OK, the dictionary must be wrong - I just plugged both into google - and it seems "Neue Sachlichkeit" is almost always translated as "New objectivity". --snoyes 16:16 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)
::Yes - I checked the Thames and Hudson Dictionary of Art, and Norbert Lynton's essay on expressionism in "Concepts of Modern Art" (Thames and Hudson, 1974), and they both call it "New Objectivity". I'm pretty sure that's the more common name in English (I've never seen "New Functionalism" before). --Camembert
:::See also New Objectivity: "The New Objectivity, or neue Sachlichkeit (new matter-of-factness)". Hyacinth 03:11, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian degenerate art 

message: I read somewhere that there were actually two exhibitions, one of the degenerated arts and one of the "good arts". By the way, the "degenerated" exhibition was by far more popular than the other one. Perhaps there is something on the German page indicating that interesting fact... --Keimzelle 13:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Entartete Kunst in Munich

message: The opening section seemed inadequate as it barely defined the term, quickly changing the subject to Heroic Art, and did not mention that the term is also the title of a historically important exhibition.
The only material entirely removed from the article is the line about Benton & Wood. As it stood it was pretty harsh on THB and GW, a careless reader could think they were being equated with Nazis.
I also tried to clarify that Nordau embellished a theory of degeneracy that had been floating around since Darwin by grafting it to art criticism -- it was overstatement to describe him as conceiving the theory of degeneracy (see Stephanie Barron p.26) although he gave it a new twist. Ewulp 04:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you that the paucity of citations is a problem--although the article is factually pretty accurate it could be more detailed, and the "Degeneracy" section needs tightening. I made a start on this in June but there's still work to be done, and I welcome your input--this page doesn't see much action. The best way to start is to check the books listed as references (or others that are authoritative, for instance college textbooks) & add add citations, corrections and expansion as needed. Citing sources retroactively of course requires care to insure that the passage cited really matches what's in the article. I'll also try to give this article some attention in the next few weeks. Ewulp 07:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Barlach Magdeburger Ehrenmal.jpg

message: This article states that 'Avant-garde German artists were now branded both enemies of the state and a threat to German culture'.
The idea that all the artists who had their work exhibited in Entartete Kunst were subsequently regarded as traitors and subjected to extreme restrictions is quite unfounded. A number of them remained members of the RKK (Reichskulturkammer) and so were allowed to continue their work and contribute to exhibitions, and some even received official commissions from the regime after 1937. (The artist biographies  listed in Stephanie Barron's work are, unfortunately, not all correct.)         
 
For German speakers, the best book on this subject is 'Innere Emigration?: Verfemte Künstlerinnen und Künstler in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus' by Beate Marks-Hanssen, 2006, ISBN: 3866241690.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwendolen webster (talk • contribs) 06:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Those identified as degenerate artists were subjected to sanctions that included being dismissed from teaching positions, being forbidden to exhibit or to sell their art, and in some cases being forbidden to produce art." is followed by citation number one, but it's not in the citation as far as I could tell. The link is a page in a website that makes no mention of this. Is the reader supposed to look at other pages in the website? At the very least a better link is needed. Arctic Gazelle (talk) 17:02, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can tell the link doesn't support that line, so I've removed the ref (which is still used elsewhere in the article). The lead section summarizes text in the body of the article where the supporting citations appear, and the citations do not need to be repeated in the lead. Ewulp (talk) 22:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The fate of the artists and their work 

message: Surely the paragraph "Goebbels and some others believed that the forceful works of such artists as Emil Nolde, Ernst Barlach and Erich Heckel exemplified the Nordic spirit" under Purge is wrong. How could their works 'exemplify' the Nordic spirit, if these artists were vilified by the Nazis?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.215.201 (talk) 10:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purge 

message: i changed "erich? nagel" to "otto nagel", this appears to be a source problem, couldn't find any erich although otto is quite notable. Accotink2 talk 13:46, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Although this is a reasonable conjecture, we must follow sources, and I can't find a RS that puts Otto Nagel in the Degenerate Art exhibition of 1937. Several sources list Erich however: Art in Berlin 1815–1989, The Avant-Garde in Exhibition: New Art in the 20th Century, and 'Degenerate Art': The Fate of the Avant-Garde in Nazi Germany (in this one, "Erich" is followed by a question mark, but Otto is not proposed as an alternative). Erich Nagel is pretty obscure, but  apparently not imaginary; see here. Ewulp (talk) 03:33, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Nagel

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thread_title:  Copyright problem 

message: Isn't this title a little bit POV?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuffrenXXI (talk • contribs) 16:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's what the Nazis called it. BMK (talk) 16:34, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There likely are sources documenting the revival of degenerate art propaganda as part of QAnon-fueled neo-nazism.  A suggestion to anyone interested in updating the article.  —PaleoNeonate – 19:58, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo-nazism 

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thread_title:  Copyright problem removed