Talk:Black Hand (Serbia)

message: I have seen reports in several sources that when she was hacked to pieces in 1903, Apis sliced off one breast. The mummified circle of flesh was used in initiation ceremonies of the Black Hand; the new member would stick a dagger in it while solemnly intoning " So shall perish all enemies of Serbia", or some such thing. In English, the allegation is made in Dennis Wheatley's 1950 novel "The Second Seal" about the outbreak of war in 1914, but he did not give his own sources. Does anyone know about this? 12.201.7.201 (talk) 03:09, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Queen Draga's breast

message: Can someone replace the current flag image with one that doesn't look like dog shit?  Let's take advantage of the full 72 pixels. CranialNerves (talk) 01:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Logo image

message: The impact section is practically one long paragraph, and should probably be either reorganized or rewritten. Or broken into smaller sections. Maybe even a new article. Just a suggestion.
Ravewolf (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The impact section

message: Does anyone know whether the Black Hand still exists, or if not, when it was destroyed/petered out?  That might be useful for inclusion in this article, and to satisfy my own curiosity.  --Anakolouthon 21:15, 8 Dec 2004 (
Some people think that still exsist but is not so active like it was
: They scattered after Solunski Proces (The Sallonica Trials) during WWI where the leaders were court marshalled (and shot) for the 1903 coup and other crimes. Apis is burried in Zeytinlik military cemetery in Thessaloniki. --User:milosj
The above is false.  Black Handers were tried at Salonika on many charges, all false.  Ultimately they were convicted only of attempting to Kill Heir Aleksandar.  The guilty verdicts were overturned posthumously for the three who were actually shot (Dimitrievic (formerly Chief of Military Intelligence) who had made a written confession to organizing the assassination of Franz Ferdinand through Rade Malobabic, Rade Malobabic who had confessed to a Priest that he had been sent to Sarajevo, and Colonal Vulovic who had confessed to having received orders signed by the Chief of the Serbian General Staff Marshall Putnik to send Rade into Austria-Hungary shortly before the assassination.  Those not executed generally were let out of prison early.  Serbia held none to account for their real crimes such as the assassination of the King and Queen and Queen's brothers, and 2 cabinet members in 1903, or for the aborted putsch in Macedonia in 1914, or for their roles in the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.  Read "The 'Black Hand' on Trial:  Salonika, 1917", or any first rate history book on the origins of WWI such as Albertini or Fay.
Werchovsky 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A question

message: I'm not sure this is the best place to make a comment about a "blood metal band", if they are in fact worthy of being in wikipedia shouldnt that be better placed in an article about the band? --Michael Lynn 12:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  pop culture references? 

message: The impact section, while extensive, is starting to stray from the Black Hand into Serb-Hapsburg conflict before the war.  Perhaps we should stick to the organization itself (Sarajevo was not at all the only impact it made on the world ).  23:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly, most resources on Union or Death are part of larger WWI resources, so they inevitable look at it only as the spark of the European powderkeg.   04:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Straying? 

message: Spiramind added blatant advertisings on a band called "Black Hand."  There seem to be many pop-culture references to Black Hand (specifically Sarajevo), and there should be a program to determine what is significant enough to be included in this page, and even if something should get its own page.  However, we must also keep at the front of out minds the fact that any pop-culture references to Black Hand must be DIRECTLY referring to Black Hand/Union or Death.  Just because "Black Hand" is the name of a faction in a computer game does not mean that it deserves to be here.  Perhaps the same factoid could be included in the computer game's page.  I also propose that and pop culture references which originate from a band, book, etc. that does not have its own Wikipedia page be removed from Black Hand.   18:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I wouldn't mind removing the pop culture references entirely even. --Michael Lynn 20:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That may be to only way to do it.  Perhaps we should cut the section.  How about we cut pop-culture by August 7th if there are no further objections?   01:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me, i think the article will be stronger without it...  --Michael Lynn 03:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Spiramind]] 

message: In Francis Ford Coppola's The Godfather Part II, Don Fanucci, the local mafiosa, is referred to as being "..with the Black Hand" by Genco Abbandando, a friend of the young Vito Corleone.
This sentence is removed because the Black Hand in the movie - The Godfather Part II, is connect with to this organization: 
Black Hand (extortion), or La Mano Nera in Italian, was a type of extortion racket, gangsters of Camorra and the Mafia practiced it. The roots of the Black Hand can be traced to Sicily and throughout the rest of Kingdom of Naples as early as the 1750s. -Gaston28 - 5 August 2007 (UTC)
:I agree.  Thanks for clearing that up.   23:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Popular Culture

message: :"Major Tankosic died in November 1915 covering the Serbian retreat, but not before confessing his role in the assassination to historians at Azania."
What Azania is this? I found no references to such a place or establishment in Serbia, or elsewhere in Europe. — Itai (talk) 08:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azania 

message: Since most of the information in this section has nothing to do with the actual subject of this article, and those that do are only vaguely relevant, I suggest this entire section be deleted, and a hidden comment be inserted saying not to create a new "pop culture" section.  Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; none of these references tell the reader anything notable about the Serbian organization, and only the The West Wing example puts the reference in any sort of context. I say remove with prejudice. скоморохъ 03:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular culture 

message: About the Italian criminal organization best known as Black Hand, I think we should create a page. Prior to the creation of the Serbian military organization, it was well known in the US and Europe. Take a look at this American weekly, The Independent (March 18, 1909).
http://cgi.ebay.com/Camorra-Black-Hand-Murder-Petrosino-1909-Texas-Lynching_W0QQitemZ300210830523QQihZ020QQcategoryZ280QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
--Jackblues 20:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Italian criminal organization

message: "toughly worded letter" is a clumsy way to put what was intended, seen as toughly as far as i know isn't even a word. i'm not sure what to change it to so i am making people aware of it so they can change it, maybe i'm being petty. (DrewCrawshaw (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  language 

message: The article should maybe try to explain just how close (or how far) the Black Hand was to the Freemasons. A recurring theme in conspiracy theories about World War I is that a small band of Masonic assassins ultimately contributed in provoking the conflict. ADM (talk) 14:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, that makes no sense.  Just because there is a conspiracy theory does not mean the article should respond to it.  If there is a valid source that says something about the Masons, that is one thing, otherwise, it should not be mentioned. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Freemasons

message: what about this?
http://www.facebook.com/people/Black-Hand/1395357170
they are hacking into our facebook group.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.75.252 (talk) 21:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The black hand on facebook 

message: Who was the leader of the Black Hand at the time of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary's assassination? TwilightKing81 21:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who was the leader? 

message: In the section 1.1 "History - The Birth of the Black Hand" there is the sentence:
I wonder whether "Colonial" should not be replaced by "Colonel" as I think that this is the military rank of Dimitrijevic.
MichiWe (talk) 14:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time he carried out the assassination of King Alexander and Queen Draga in 1903 he held the rank of captain.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colonial Dragutin Dimitrijevic? 

message: The article says the Black Hand was formed in 1911; however historian C. L. Sulzberger in his Fall of Eagles says that Black Hand was behind the assassination of King Alexander I and Queen Draga in 1903, with Apis being the leader.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:53, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: --Zoupan 05:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Actual formation date

message: I'm not clear as to why this article should be the main Black Hand page, as it appears there are other organisations of similar name of similar levels of notability.  I suggest the disambig page Black Hand (disambigaution) be moved to the plain Black Hand title, this article to Black Hand (Serbia).  If there's some counterargument that the majority of people googling/wiki-searching "Black Hand" would be looking for this group vice others of similar name, it'd be good to lay out here.  Otherwise recommend making the disambig the main page. MatthewVanitas (talk) 09:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest moving this article to [[Black Hand (Serbia)]], making disambig page main BH article 

message: Black Hand existed after the First World War, and after the Second World War. It was founded as a secret association of Serb military, but later spread to other armies. A member of the Black Hand  Mujko Golubic was founded its branch in the Red Army between the two world wars. Stalin even gave him the rank of general. During World War II member of the Black Hand Colonel Zivan Knezevic established its branch in the U.S. military. He was awarded the Legion of Merit by the American president Harry Truman.  Association during the 20th century become secretly international military association and now has branches in more armies. Most of the  Trader Arms in a world are members of the Black Hand. Originally established by the freemasons, because the father of this organization Dragutin Dimitrijevic was a free mason.--Свифт (talk) 08:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Black Hand is still there

message: Not sure why a Croatian editor reverted my removal of a section template, as their revert had no explanation, which is poor form to begin with. The article already has a template requesting sources for the entire length of the article, and most of the article is completely unsourced, thus it is against guidelines to stick additional templates in sections and subsections. The whole needs proper sourcing, as the main template indicates. Are there any other issues at hand, such as accuracy or neutrality? Laval (talk) 10:04, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure why my origin is worthy of mention, it's as if it matters? I simply think it's better to have N  templates than just one top  - presumably someone noticed that entirely unreferenced section and thought it specifically was a problem worth pointing the readers to. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:23, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Templates

message: First of all, it seems that this article was created with merging of two different articles, with almost opposite statements. Different dates of creation are only a mere example. It is not clear whether Black Hand was a Yugoslav or Greater-Serbian organization. Perhaps it seems unimportant to some authors, however historically IT IS important. Greater Serbia would have comprised only of those territories with Serbian majority, and Yugoslavia was based on the principle of national egality of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (where Montenegrins and Macedonians are considered as Serbs, and Muslims as South Slavs by origin). In the Black Hand`s oath from 1910, it is clear that this organization is commited towards creation of Yugoslavia. If some authors consider it as Greater Serbia, they mismanaged two different concepts, which were, however, actual at that time. I would also add another concept, the Balkan Federation, which had been, however, abandoned as of 1913. The part of this article which does not have any references suddenly transforms this organization from pro-Yugoslavian to Serbian nationalist. It is also notable that a sister organization, Young Bosnia did have some Muslim members, who also participated in June 28th assasination, and they were supporters of Yugoslavia. What is more, Dragutin Dimitrijevic Apis vowed- during the execution of his own death penalty- "Long live Yugoslavia!"--DustBGD89-3 (talk) 11:53, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Multiple issues, mostly neutrality

message: The entire "Birth of the Black Hand" section is copied almost word for word from an article called "The Black Hand: The Secret Serbian Terrorist Society" (viewable here http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/comment/blk-hand.html). Even the heading of the copied section is the exact same.
I personally am not confidant in my ability to rephrase this while retaining the meaning, but this is a fairly major issue that should be resolved.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.38.189.150 (talk) 18:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blatant plagiarism 

message: the idea flow is convoluted and not easy to follow. it very much seems like the article was written predominantly by hands that use english as a second language, or that is was machine-translated into english from a non-english version.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.155.131.72 (talk) 12:03, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  writing style 

message: The Wiki link for  Milan Marinković is incorrect, it redirects to a professional basketball player born in 1968.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.116.154.233 (talk) 20:23, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Milan Marinković incorrect link 

message: The redirect Black Hand (Serbia has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Utopes (talk / cont) 18:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:Black Hand (Serbia]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]