Talk:Winter Soldier Investigation/Archive 1

message: Just a quick addition...
As mentioned above, Burkett can't verify the existance of the Naval Investigation report - he says to see Lewy.  Now, to add to the hilarity, it seems Lewy can't verify where this "Investigation Report" tripe comes from, either.  See this article:
-- In an interview, Lewy termed the Winter Soldier project "completely unreliable and untrustworthy" and doubts that Vietnam War atrocities were officially condoned or as widespread as the Detroit testimony indicated.
Lewy said he does not recall if he saw a copy of the naval investigative report or was briefed on its contents. "I'm quite confident the information is authentic," he said. Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, said officials were searching for a copy of the report.
Bobby Muller, president of the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation and a Marine Corps veteran of the war, worked with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He stands by the Winter Soldier project and was unaware of any investigation that called into question the truthfulness of the participants.
The rest of the article is here:
http://www.bushcountry.org/news/feb_news_pages/n_022304_kerry_soldier_anti-war.htm
As a final note, you DID know that author Burkett and President Bush are co-chairmen of the Texas War Memorial, and long time drinkin' buddies, right?  Not that this means anything, during this election season... 
-Rob
* Regarding the 8/13 Deletion of info rv: What are you referring to as being deleted? Teresa Heinz Kerry? The IS/ISN'T chain which was obsoleted by the contradictory comments about the Weber film clip? The group of people which were moved (not deleted)? The brief and redundant Hopewell segment just above the more complete paragraph? -- (SEWilco 09:10, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quick addition by Rob 

message: * Jim Weber is a "scruffy, befuddled individual making a number of outrageous claims," according to C. Alan Hopewell, Ph.D, ABPP, former Chief of Psychology Service for the Mental Hygiene Clinic for Fort Jackson as well as Moncrief Army Hospital.  Hopewell arrived at Fort Jackson a decade after Weber took basic training there. 
* He stated he had "never heard one single statement similar to those Mr. Weber claimed of his training" from working with hundreds or thousands of recruits, staff, and records.
* In addition to working with much of the staff, Hopewell reviewed training files and programs going back years throughout the entire 1960's while engaged in some research projects on post and doesn't recall seeing anything officially documented that would incriminate the trainers.  Not in training records, procedures, medical records, training cadre, mental health team, nor the Chaplains records was anything remotely resembling Weber's claims noted. 
* Mr. Webers claims regarding his basic training consisted of: "my complete moral worth was completely destroyed. I mean I was a worthless human being. The worst thing that you can be in the military is to be called a civilian. And so they had to completely resocialize us, which they were very effective at doing."  Hopewell indicates that he hasn't seen any evidence that new recruits were broken down and re-socialized as military rather than civilian people. -Rob
* During another investigation of problems in training, a senior Army psychologist who had probably been at Ft. Jackson during the time Weber was there also found nothing that would be remotely consistent with Weber's statements.  As an expert consultant and in his position as Chief of Psychology at BAMC, Hopewell also did some review of AIT procedures at Ft. Polk in 1982 due to claims of stress at Ft. Polk and Vietnam.
*** Rob prefers hiding these until substantiated, rather than their being visible for discussion.
**** (If the following comments make no sense, it means that once again a preceding phrase has been hidden.) -- (SEWilco 07:06, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary 

message: ** I must have missed that - can you please provide a reference link?  I see where he says he had "access" and "opportunity" to review files (which I automatically assumed because of his rank and position - it's expected), but he never specifically details which files, of those "available" to him, he reviewed.  Maybe you can get him to "privately" elaborate a little as to what documents; what "a number of years" translates to; and what exact "program, procedure, or training protocol" did Weber mention, that might have caught his eye?  -Rob
*** You're trying to quibble about information which is in Hopewell's article. -- (SEWilco 14:44, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rob asks Scot to prove Hopewell reviewed relevant files - Unresolved Questions 

message: **Hopewell makes these claims more than 30 years after the described events, during discussions about presidential candidate, and former VVAW spokesperson, John Kerry.  Hopewell said that while normally he would not worry about actions by a candidate more than 30 years earlier, "that kind of pattern just really can't be forgotten the way that most other things can be forgotten."  -Rob
** What is Kerry's relevance to Weber's testimony? -- ((SEWilco) 20:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rob points out Scot's source has alterior motives - Unresolved Questions 

message: ** Needs proof that Hopewell was stationed at that base, and during what time.  He also mentions one or more of his project studies was published - can we verify that?  I have to question this since his veracity is in question due to gross fabrications he makes elsewhere in his letter.  -Rob
*** While we're at it, can you please provide substantiation that Weber went to Fort Jackson?  With Hopewells established track record of fabrication, I'd be willing to wager against him.  The video and transcript both merely say he "went to South Carolina..." -Rob
*** Ask Hopewell.  Or hire an investigator.  Shouldn't be hard to find info about such a major Post position.  Or see if one of his two books mentions his history and bibliography.  -- (SEWilco 20:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rob requests proof of Hopewells and Webers location and work - Unresolved Questions 

message: ** You are presenting a source that admittedly has the dual agendas of a) casting suspicion upon the Winter Soldier Investigation participants, and b) discrediting John Kerry in whatever ways necessary to reduce his chances of success in political arenas.  That's strike 1. 
*** a) The source is casting suspicion upon facts in the Winter Soldier Investigation testimony.  Which facts are correct?  b) In what way does Weber being wrong discredit Kerry?  Kerry repeated some Winter Soldier Investigation info after labeling it as being from the Winter Soldier Investigation, not his. --(SEWilco)
*****  (I thought you said Hopewell hasn't seen that testimony... -Rob) (That's the facts in the Winter Soldier Investigator testimony, which exist whether anyone looked at what they are.  Perhaps we should say "claims" rather than "facts"? -- (SEWilco) )
****** Incorrect. You said the source (Hopewell) is trying to cast suspicion upon the facts (testimony).  You also state Hopewell has not seen the facts (testimony), only the propaganda (WinterSlander.com creation).  Please make up your mind.  Thanks.  Perhaps we should just stick to facts, rather than claims?  -Rob 
**** a) All "facts" are correct - by its very definition.  What did you really intend to ask?  Also, can you cite one "fact" in Winter Soldier Investigation upon which Hopewell casts suspicion?  Please quote both the fact, verbatim, and Hopewell's refutation, verbatim - and leave interpretations out, thanks.  I don't see any.  b) I never said "Weber being wrong discredits Kerry."  Was that question directed to another poster? -Rob  
***** a) I'm saying Hopewell is addressing the facts, not the participants.  
****** Incorrect.  You were saying Hopewell had not seen the facts, only the propaganda piece (video snippets) upon which he commented.  Are you recanting this, and taking a different stance?  And, to reiterate: You are presenting a source that admittedly has the agenda of casting suspicion upon the Winter Soldier Investigation participants.  That's not a very qualified "source."  -Rob
****** You also seem to have missed the pertinent question, so I'll repeat it here:  Can you cite one "fact" in Winter Soldier Investigation upon which Hopewell casts suspicion?  Please quote both the fact, verbatim, and Hopewell's refutation, verbatim - and leave interpretations out, thanks.  I don't see any. -Rob
***** b) We're discussing Weber here, and you claim that Hopewell showing that Weber's facts are wrong will somehow discredit Kerry. (Scot?)
****** Incorrect.  I claimed your "source" has the admitted agenda of discrediting Kerry.  I said nothing of Weber.  Perhaps we should stay with claims I actually made, and not with claims you say I made - it will keep things clearer, and more factual. -Rob   
***** And somehow an effect on Kerry is justification for affecting something about Weber's testimony?  -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion of qualifications as a legitimate "source." Strike 1: Hopewell's dual agendas 

message: *: Further, you are citing a source document that, rather than attempting to be factual, is riddled with unsubstantiated POV.  i.e., "...Oliver Stone-type film...," "...befuddled individual," "These blatherings...," etc.  Strike 2.  
** I'm not introducing irrelevant Hopewell POV.  -- (SEWilco)
*** Of course you are.  You did, the very moment you typed in the link to his op-ed piece. -Rob
**** Hopewell's article is the source for his information.  
***** Let me get this straight.  Hopewell is using his article as the source for the information in his article?  How can he use his article to write his article when his article does not yet exist? -Rob
**** Even the most scholarly article may have stuff like that referenced, but it doesn't have to include the POV around the facts.  -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strike 2: Hopewell document has unsubstantiated POV 

message: *: Your source is not qualified, even assuming he hasn't fabricated his presence at Fort Jackson, for several reasons: a) He is commenting on an environment that existed 10 years prior to his arrival.  b) He is commenting on an environment that was radically revamped, and no longer existed by the time he arrived.  c) Your 'source' tries to insist he didn't "find" corroboration of Weber's statements, but fails to mention he wasn't even looking for it at the time. d) Most of the accusations with which your source takes issue are about a location (Ft. Polk) that he hasn't even seen, but he deceivingly addresses them as if he would somehow have first-hand knowledge of them.  Strike 4.  
** a) You assume no traces of the previous environment would remain.  
*** No, Hopewell indicates that no traces of the previous environment remained.  Are you calling his statements into question?
**** No, your item (a) assumes he is commenting on an environment whose traces could somehow be completely removed.  That is quite an accomplishment in cleaning up, including the human memories.  I'm sure you know better than to invoke inhumanly perfect conspiracies. -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strike 4: Hopewell: wrong time, wrong place 

message: *: Your "source" cites, as his source, a video clip that was severely mis-edited with the end result portraying meanings that do not exist, or are directly opposite than what the unedited version intended.  Strike 5.
** Which meanings other than that of "flag waver"?  -- (SEWilco)
** Hopewell claims the subject claims he underwent "training in genocide," at Fort Jackson.  Weber made no such claim.  Just perusing that document, I see 7 more blatant fabrications and gross misinterpretations.  It would appear your expert liar isn't so "expert." -Rob
*** He is an expert on psychology and military training environments.  Not an expert at lying.  -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strike 5: Misedited video clip distorts meaning 

message: ** While we're at it, can you please provide substantiation that your source video, the one to which you keep linking, is authentic? (It's already established that it is inaccurate.)  It appears to be located on someones personal site dedicated to cleaning solvents and other Multi-Level Marketing products.  With WinterSlander.com's established track record of fabrication, I'd be willing to wager against them.  -Rob
*** It is in the long version of the Winter Soldier video.  Many libraries have copies of various versions. -- (SEWilco 18:14, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film clip authentic? 

message: *** Did Americal have more than one basic training facility in SC?  Google Americal basic training South Carolina 1967 -- (SEWilco 20:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scot asks if there is more than one Basic training facility in South Calrolina 

message: 2) Your "expert" Mr. Hopewell, isn't.  He's a Kerry-Hunter (see http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/Politics/Not-All.Veterans.Are.Kerrys.brothers-673486.shtml).  He's a Vietnam-Image-Rehabilitation Activist (see his articles at http://www.viet-myths.net/).  And he's a registered Texas Republican that couldn't give a damn about Winter Soldier unless Kerry is campaigning 30 years later.  All of this alone should be enough to cause you embarrassment for even citing him as a factual source.  But there is more... -Rob
* He apparently is an expert  who has an opinion about Kerry. I didn't examine voter registration records, as I didn't think that was relevant.  Have you found any of the Winter Soldier Investigation participants in those records? -- (SEWilco)
** He's not an expert on Winter Soldier, nor on what was taught in training at Fort Jackson a full decade before he arrived there.  He makes that evident.  -Rob
*** He makes evident that he is an expert on training at Fort Jackson during several preceding decades. -- (SEWilco 07:54, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hopewell is not an expert 

message: ** Hopewell has clarified his interpretation on WinterSoldier.Com.  -- (SEWilco 08:41, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hopewell article on WinterSoldier.Com modified by unnamed editor 

message: *** He didn't say that everything matched TRADOC.  He was aware of TRADOC when reviewing. He said he hadn't heard of what Weber described.  The expert is saying that the reality of staff experience and records doesn't match what Weber described.  Oh, and that the Post's community did not seem unusual.   You might stop at the local library and see if the high school yearbooks or newspapers mentioned anything like what Weber says was going on. -- (SEWilco 07:54, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awareness of TRADOC; unaware of reality - Hopewell comments on wrong camp 

message: After you have had a chance to digest this, Scot, perhaps then we can delete this segment. I'll leave it here in the Talk:Notes for now, but it certainly isn't making it to an encyclopedia page that claims to be factual. And a bit of advice... be very wary of anything obtained from the political action site known as wintersoldier.com. -Rob
===== Scot's recommendation =====
Be wary of anything from any activism source.  But check the bathwater for baby. -- (SEWilco 06:29, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rob's recommendation 

message: Be wary of anything from any activism source.  But check the bathwater for baby. -- (SEWilco 06:29, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scot's recommendation 

message: The military investigation which stated that some participants were phonies has not been confirmed.  But the identities of some participants are known, which reduces the list of possible impostors.  Actual participants in the Winter Soldier Investigation should be noted in each person's section.  Some people who are not known to have testified at the Winter Soldier Investigation should be listed if it seems likely they were involved, such as VVAW officers and coordinators.
This section is a cross-reference web, using concepts from classification and friend of a friend systems.  This being a discussion area, it is likely to contain fragmentary information which editors will expand when using info in main article.
=== Well known ===
==== John Kerry ====
* John Kerry
* Involved with VVAW when it hosted the Winter Soldier Investigation but did not give testimony.
* John Kerry, 27, Lt. (j.g.), Coastal Sq., Coastal Division, 11 & 13, USNR (November 1968 to April 1969) 
** Co-moderator, WSI Miscellaneous Panel.  Link to transcript of Panel discussion: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_28_Misc.html
* Summarized the Winter Soldier Investigation descriptions later at a Senate hearing in Washington.
* Peggy Kerry introduced him to VVAW.
==== Teresa Heinz Kerry ====
* Teresa Heinz Kerry
* Married to former VVAW Spokesman John Kerry 
* It is reported that Teresa Heinz Kerry has slept next to the one time spokesperson for the WInter Soldier event, as he had nightmares about Vietnam.  
* In what way is she relevant to WSI?  Are John Kerry's dreams about Vietnam relevant to WSI? --(SEWilco 03:38, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Winter Soldier Investigation - Participants and Relationships 

message: ==== John Kerry ====
* John Kerry
* Involved with VVAW when it hosted the Winter Soldier Investigation but did not give testimony.
* John Kerry, 27, Lt. (j.g.), Coastal Sq., Coastal Division, 11 & 13, USNR (November 1968 to April 1969) 
** Co-moderator, WSI Miscellaneous Panel.  Link to transcript of Panel discussion: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_28_Misc.html
* Summarized the Winter Soldier Investigation descriptions later at a Senate hearing in Washington.
* Peggy Kerry introduced him to VVAW.
==== Teresa Heinz Kerry ====
* Teresa Heinz Kerry
* Married to former VVAW Spokesman John Kerry 
* It is reported that Teresa Heinz Kerry has slept next to the one time spokesperson for the WInter Soldier event, as he had nightmares about Vietnam.  
* In what way is she relevant to WSI?  Are John Kerry's dreams about Vietnam relevant to WSI? --(SEWilco 03:38, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well known 

message: * Teresa Heinz Kerry
* Married to former VVAW Spokesman John Kerry 
* It is reported that Teresa Heinz Kerry has slept next to the one time spokesperson for the WInter Soldier event, as he had nightmares about Vietnam.  
* In what way is she relevant to WSI?  Are John Kerry's dreams about Vietnam relevant to WSI? --(SEWilco 03:38, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teresa Heinz Kerry 

message: * Michael Paul McCusker, VVAW Coordinator - Oregon
* There are two similar identities in WSI records, differing by first name and final year of service.
* Mike McCusker, 29, Sgt. (E-5), Public Information Office, 1st Marine Division (1966 to 1968)  
** 25th Infantry Division and Public Information Office Panel 
** Mike McCusker and Larry Rottmann met "in Chicago and we both got gassed together." 
*** (Conjecture: context implies years of activism, so probably refers to tear gas used on protestors during the 1968 Democratic National Convention, a historic protest event in Chicago within months of the end of McCusker & Rottmann's Vietnam service.) 
**** Rob thinks maybe they were "writing in protest"?  How did they get "gassed" by writing?  Context refers to what they are doing at the WSI together, so they probably did not meet as DNC delegates or hotel staff. -- (SEWilco 06:24, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mike McCusker, Michael McCusker 

message: * Joe Bangert 
* Participated in creation of Winter Soldier film.
* Winter Soldier Investigation - 1st Marine Division testimony 
* Bangert has worked for several of John Kerry's campaigns since 1984, including as a veterans' organizer in 2004. -- (SEWilco)
** I don't doubt it - but do you have a source for that? - Rob
*** It was in the WSI stuff which you reverted. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40304 -- (SEWilco 03:14, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joe Bangert 

message: * Steve Pitkin 
** WSI Miscellaneous Panel (Sixties Project) 
* Yesterday's Lies: Steve Pitkin and the Winter Soldiers 
** WSI Miscellaneous Panel, Pitkin testimony (WinterSoldier.Com) 
** John Kerry and Scott Camil drove van with Pitkin to WSI.
** Pitkin states he was pressured by WSI participants to falsely testify at the event. 
** In the Winter Soldier film, Pitkin is presented at the beginning of the film being interviewed by Kerry, and later during his appearance in the panel.
===== FALSE TESTIMONY? =====
 
* Many questions have been raised about the testimony given at the Winter Soldier Investigation. 
  
* In September 2004, Steve Pitkin stated that "John Kerry and other leaders of that event pressured me to testify about American war crimes, despite my repeated statements that I could not honestly do so. One event leader strongly implied that I would not be provided transportation back to my home in Baltimore, Maryland, if I failed to comply. Kerry and other leaders of the event instructed me to publicly state that I had witnessed incidents of rape, brutality, atrocities and racism, knowing that such statements would necessarily be untrue." Pitkin testified and was a participant shown in the Winter Soldier film, first shown while talking with Kerry. -(anonymous) 
** As it turns out, Pitkin never did give false testimony.  It appears he was going to testify to atrocities, as he says he will during the introductions, but when his turn comes to speak, he merely rambles on about the generalities of war in a foreign country.  Isn't it a little misleading to generate a major sub-catagory called "False Testimony" when there wasn't any?  -Rob
*** So it is OK for his generalities to be false?  Identified coerced testimony is not relevant? -- (SEWilco 19:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steve Pitkin 

message: * Many questions have been raised about the testimony given at the Winter Soldier Investigation. 
  
* In September 2004, Steve Pitkin stated that "John Kerry and other leaders of that event pressured me to testify about American war crimes, despite my repeated statements that I could not honestly do so. One event leader strongly implied that I would not be provided transportation back to my home in Baltimore, Maryland, if I failed to comply. Kerry and other leaders of the event instructed me to publicly state that I had witnessed incidents of rape, brutality, atrocities and racism, knowing that such statements would necessarily be untrue." Pitkin testified and was a participant shown in the Winter Soldier film, first shown while talking with Kerry. -(anonymous) 
** As it turns out, Pitkin never did give false testimony.  It appears he was going to testify to atrocities, as he says he will during the introductions, but when his turn comes to speak, he merely rambles on about the generalities of war in a foreign country.  Isn't it a little misleading to generate a major sub-catagory called "False Testimony" when there wasn't any?  -Rob
*** So it is OK for his generalities to be false?  Identified coerced testimony is not relevant? -- (SEWilco 19:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  FALSE TESTIMONY? 

message: ==== Jim Weber ====
* Jim Weber 
** Winter Soldier Testimony - 24, Sgt. (E-5), "A" Co., 1/6 and 1/46, 198 LIB, Americal Division (November 1967 to November 1968) 
** Jim Weber confirms Ronald Palosaari's testimony. Palosaari confirms Weber's statements.
** Transcript of full testimony: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_50_Americal.html
*** might as well delete this, since it is not authentic. -Rob
**** For someone who complains about stuff being deleted, you delete that document a lot. --(SEWilco 08:28, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lesser known 

message: * Jim Weber 
** Winter Soldier Testimony - 24, Sgt. (E-5), "A" Co., 1/6 and 1/46, 198 LIB, Americal Division (November 1967 to November 1968) 
** Jim Weber confirms Ronald Palosaari's testimony. Palosaari confirms Weber's statements.
** Transcript of full testimony: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_50_Americal.html
*** might as well delete this, since it is not authentic. -Rob
**** For someone who complains about stuff being deleted, you delete that document a lot. --(SEWilco 08:28, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jim Weber 

message: * Russ Vaughn
** Says John Kerry and others perpetrated lies.
* Letter from a Russ Vaughn to WinterSoldier.Com points out veterans are "ragtag bunch of scumbags." http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20031118064232940
** "Reading that made me wonder how many seriously injured Vietnam veterans were denied this kind of community support because of the vicious and calculated lies perpetrated by John Kerry and that sorry-ass, ragtag bunch of scumbag, pseudo-soldiers he led. How many sacrificing, honorable warriors were left alone, isolated and embittered with their grievous wounds, rejected by an ungrateful nation, because of the manipulative, purposeful deceptions of a scheming, ambitious politician." 
** "And now this shameless jerk, who, more than any other single person, created this unwarranted image of Vietnam veterans, wants us to join his Band of Brothers? Band of Brothers my ass! More like Band of Mothers to this veteran who will never, ever forgive John Kerry’s contemptible, destructive use of good and honorable soldiers to further his own selfish ambitions."
** "This brave young noncom was recently honored by his hometown community when he and his family came home from Walter Reed, where he had been convalescing for many months and getting fitted with prosthetic limbs."
** Was Vaughn involved with WSI? --(SEWilco 03:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russ Vaughn 

message: These entries need more information. Are these people WSI participants?
==== Gaetano Puglisi ====
* Gaetano Puglisi
* Letter from a Gaetano Puglisi to WinterSoldier.Com points out how John Kerry obtained VVAW letterhead and forged letters to Veterans before joining VVAW. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20031118064232940
** "The Brave men and women who gave the ultimate sacrifice should not have their Brave deeds forsaken by J. Kerry. Best Regards and God Bless AMERICA."
** "I was encouraged to return my Purple Heart [with cluster -- I have 2] and my Bronze Star w/ V device [Valor] and join his protest against the war."
** "I would like to say something about Mr. Kerry. In 1968 or 1969 I received a letter from Kerry and the Vietnam Veterans Against the War...He went to Nam to help his own political future and had his own agenda and never wanted to help the guys who were spilling their blood for AMERICA and FREEDOM! This Kerry should have been stripped of all Veteran Benefits."
** Was Puglisi involved with WSI? --(SEWilco 03:54, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  People without apparent involvement in WSI 

message: * Gaetano Puglisi
* Letter from a Gaetano Puglisi to WinterSoldier.Com points out how John Kerry obtained VVAW letterhead and forged letters to Veterans before joining VVAW. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20031118064232940
** "The Brave men and women who gave the ultimate sacrifice should not have their Brave deeds forsaken by J. Kerry. Best Regards and God Bless AMERICA."
** "I was encouraged to return my Purple Heart [with cluster -- I have 2] and my Bronze Star w/ V device [Valor] and join his protest against the war."
** "I would like to say something about Mr. Kerry. In 1968 or 1969 I received a letter from Kerry and the Vietnam Veterans Against the War...He went to Nam to help his own political future and had his own agenda and never wanted to help the guys who were spilling their blood for AMERICA and FREEDOM! This Kerry should have been stripped of all Veteran Benefits."
** Was Puglisi involved with WSI? --(SEWilco 03:54, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaetano Puglisi 

message: * "Each veteran's authenticity and testimony were checked before the hearings by Investigation organizers. Who better to authenticate Vietnam service than other Vietnam vets (Brinkley, 349; Hunt, 66-68). Each veteran's authenticity and testimony were checked after the hearings by Nixon's "plumbers". Charles Colson was assigned the task. In a CONFIDENTIAL "Plan to Counteract Viet Nam Veterans Against the War", Colson wrote, "The men that participated in the pseudo-atrocity hearings in Detroit will be checked to ascertain if they are genuine combat veterans." At one point, the Nixon team suggested in a memo about VVAW, "Several of their regional coordinators are former Kennedy supporters." With the exception of the attack on Al Hubbard, nothing worse was ever produced (Brinkley, 356-357;Hunt, 73-84; Wells, 489-490).
* From Guenther Lewy's "America in Vietnam," (Pg. 316):  To prevent the Detroit hearing from being tainted by such irregularities, all of the veterans testifying fully identified the units in which they had served and provided geographical descriptions of where the alleged atrocities had taken place.
* "Those who wanted to testify were carefully screened by Oliver, Hubbard, Scott Moore, and other officers of VVAW, as well as by Fonda and her associates, to make sure that they were who they said they were, that they had served where they said they did, and that only the strongest testimony went before the microphones.  All veterans participating in Winter Soldier were required to bring their discharge papers (DD-214's).  Moreover, Oliver and Moore had fashioned a special "atrocity room" in a nearby house, with hundreds of papers taped to the walls---lists of troop movements and unit assignments which they correlated with the individual claims of war crimes that were being brought before them every day."  -- (SEWilco 06:41, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Winter Soldier Investigation verification processes 

message: * Citizen Soldier records, 1966-1994, Document collection at Cornell University. Records cover period when the Citizens' Commission of Inquiry on U.S. War Crimes (CCI) began organizing what became the Winter Soldier Investigation. Division of Rare and Manuscript Collections, Cornell University Library, Collection 7033. http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/EAD/htmldocs/RMM07033.html
** Could be an interesting source for support documents regarding events of that era - Too bad they don't have all 25 cubic feet of boxed material on the net.  Where did you get the idea that CCI organized the Winter Soldier Investigation?  The only connection I see is that some of the founding VVAW members may also have been involved with CCI. -Rob
*** WSI began as a project of CCI, supported by Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) cofounder Jan Crumb, attorney Mark Lane, and actress Jane Fonda. ...  The Citizen's Commission of Inquiry had contacted VVAW to find witnesses to atrocities. After months of increasingly disharmonious work together, VVAW decided that the public event that was growing out of gathering this testimony would have more credibility as an all-veteran project. Vietnam Veterans Against the War took over the Winter Soldier Investigation in late 1970. http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Texts/Narrative/Crandell_Winter.html -- (SEWilco 06:43, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related Source Information 

message: You have changed certain "war crimes" references to "American war crimes."  That is technically incorrect, since many of the war crimes described were committed by our Vietnamese allies, while the U.S. military leaders turned a blind eye. - Rob
* Changed to include allies, yet still references are being removed. -- (SEWilco 05:33, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  American and allied war crimes 

message: * Annotations to the testimony are being removed. -- (SEWilco 06:05, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exerpted Testimony From Veterans 

message: * Not that I know of. -Rob
Kerry also claimed in sworn testimony to have taken part personally in committing war crimes, though he was aware they were war crimes at the time.
* I am aware he admitted to war crimes on Meet the Press and The Dick Cavett Show, and in print to shooting villages (and villagers).  Did he admit such in sworn testimony rather than only repeating WSI testimony? -- (SEWilco 16:40, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kerry swore to committing war crimes? 

message: Each veteran's authenticity and testimony were checked before the hearings by the investigation event organizers. To prevent the Detroit hearing from being tainted by irregularities, all of the veterans testifying fully identified the units in which they had served and provided geographical descriptions of where the alleged atrocities had taken place.
* Pitkin's statement removes certainty of "were checked".  Try "were said to be checked", to fit what was claimed at the time. -- SEWilco
** The statements from several others directly refuting Pitkin's statement re-establishes that certainty.  However, we are dealing with two different subjects being "checked." Veteran identities, by all accounts (Even Pitkin's), have been thoroughly checked.  Veteran testimonies, by their very nature, could not be as thoroughly checked.  The organizers did do what they could to corroborate events by camparing accounts between members of the same units, but that is explained elsewhere.  How would you feel about simply removing "and testimony" from that sentence? -Rob  
* "To prevent" implies that the following has some certainty of avoiding irregularities. (were the limits in the following due to what was mentioned in source material?)  -- SEWilco
** "all ... fully identified ... served" has completeness, certainty, yet restricted to units in which they served, limiting how useful this was for detecting irregularities in testimony.  Only useful for verification of veteran's authenticity. -- SEWilco
** "geographical descriptions ... atrocities" omits other details for verification of testimony, such as who, what, and when. -- SEWilco
:I suggest changing "To prevent" to "To help prevent" instead.  Let me know what you think. -Rob
*** You don't appear to be contesting the suggested changes, nor have you raised additional issues of accuracy.  I'll remove the "accuracy" tags from the main article. -Rob
**** You don't appear to have raised additional issues of accuracy.  Reverted to more accurate version.  -- SEWilco 18:47, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Verification of participants' credibility