Talk:Piano Sonata No. 29 (Beethoven)

message: III is Sonata-Form, not Variations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.185.193 (talk) 11:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Third movement form

message: A conventional classical sonata has three, not four, movements. Skiasaurus 04:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that it should say rather unconventional.  A full 13 of Beethoven's 32 Piano Sonatas have 4 movements.  I think Mozart may have had a few 4-movement sonatas.  I know that other composers like Schubert had many 4-movement sonatas.    Asmeurer (talk • contribs) 03:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mozart did not have any four movement piano sonatas.  Four-movement form (fast-slow-"dance"-fast) was well-established by the time Haydn wrote his quartets and symphonies in his Sturm und Drang era of the 1760s, but that form was not applied to the Piano Sonata and Piano Trio genres until Beethoven's early Op 1 and Op 2 sets.  So, it was an established form, but had not been established in those genre's yet. DavidRF 21:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How many movements in a Classical sonata?

message: I have given further elaboration to the various devices Beethoven applies in the amazing fugue movement, which deserves a fuller treatment.
--Anonymous, Aug 20, 2007.
It says in the section about the first movement that it ends with fortississimo, but in fact it is only fortissimo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.218.72 (talk) 22:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Further description of the fourth movement

message: The second paragraph under "Composition" says this work lasts 50 minutes. Just below that, the first paragraph under "Structure" says 45 minutes. I checked my four versions and all last 42-43 minutes (I know there is at least one version out there that is much longer). Suggest the first timing reference be changed to 45 minutes. --Anon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.164.194.112 (talk) 22:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length of the Hammerklavier 

message: Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification? Hyacinth (talk) 22:38, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional citations

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Piano Sonata No. 1 (Beethoven) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 13:16, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Note the date of the foregoing notice. The discussion, now long closed, concerned whether to move the sonata articles to new titles incorporating opus numbers. The conclusion was not to do so. Drhoehl (talk) 23:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 20:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Note the date of the foregoing notice. The discussion, speedily closed long ago, concerned whether to move this article to the new title "Hammerklavier Sonata." Drhoehl (talk) 23:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: We say the world had to wait till the 20th century before its significance was realised, but Liszt was a famous exponent and he certainly understood it.  
He did seem to premiere it in a few places, but does anyone know who was the very first to play it in public?  My searches have been fruitless.  --  Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 04:37, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Liszt

message: Or rather 9 minutes, unless you favour your own comfort over Beethoven's ideas. Beethoven did not write  = 138 for nothing, and while almost nobody seems to dare to take it that fast, the piece loses a lot when "Allegro" is mistaken for "Allegro maestoso". Double sharp (talk) 05:50, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. The idea of orchestrating this sonata should probably be criticised as well as just stated in this article. The opening is hugely effective on the piano and falls completely flat in the orchestra – and I'm pretty sure I've read some comments to this effect. (I can't remember where exactly: I will go looking.) Double sharp (talk) 05:53, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: (P.P.S. Beethoven also wrote to Ferdinand Ries about the marking: "First movement Allegro, but only Allegro; you must remove the Assai." I suspect, as does Rosen, that the original was therefore Allegro assai and that Beethoven was revising the tempo down (although he has also noted that it might have also been Assai allegro, which might instead be slower than Allegro, I think Allegro assai is more likely for musical reasons: I am often tempted myself to take the work faster than  = 138). Double sharp (talk) 07:39, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Duration of roughly 9–13 minutes" 

message: The article  stated:  
"It is perhaps[original research?] the first major piano work to so thoroughly incorporate a Baroque contrapuntal style (the fugue) within an originally Classical structure (the sonata form)." I removed this statement alltogether.
At first: a Fugue appearing within in a classical structure was not a novum at all when Beethoven composed the Hammerklavier. 
In fact Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven wrote earlier and very thorough Fugues in their String Quartets, Trios, Symphonies (Jupiter!) all representing the Fugue within a Classical structure and most (all?) of them - like the Hammerklavier - as a final part: The Fugue as a proof of compositional mastership crowning the work.
Furthermore Beethoven many times and in a structural way used fugal technique in his earlier pianosonatas, and I believe the opus 101 Piano Sonata (1815-1816) with a fugato and opus 102:2 Cello Sonata (1815) with an elaborate fugue as a last part precede the Hammerklavier (1817-1818) by a few years. The Cello Sonata as such is not a  piano solo work, but the piano part and the fugue are so extensive, complex and harsh that this piece has to be taken into account in this discussion. The opus 101 fugato is more imitative and harmonic in nature, but the Hammerklavier fugue also has its more harmonic oriented parts.
But then there is Beethovens pupil Carl Czerny who really beat Beethoven in this aspect! : His first piano sonata opus 7 dating 1810 published by Artaria in 1810 or 1812 is like the Hammerklavier sonata of true heroic proportions (39 dense pages excl repeats) and including a fugue as a fifth movement. 
1. Andante (rep.)/ Allegro moderato ed espressivo / Andante / Allegro moderato ed espressivo in A-flat (5pages)   
2. Scherzo / Trio in C-sharp minor / G-flat major / C-sharp minor/ A-flat major (8pages)
3. Adagio espressivo e cantabile (inspired on van Beethoves op31.2 marche funebre) (7pages)
4. Rondo Allegretto (17pages)
5. Capriccio Fugato, (tempo moderato): A 4 voice Fugue in As major) with a theme and texture that resembles the Hammerklavier theme (6p)
The sonata was long time forgotten but it was recently republished IMSLP Score Piano_Sonata_No.1,_Op.7_(Czerny,_Carl) and recorded Czerny op 7 - part 5 Fugue. 
Czerny probably got the idea of an instrumental Sonata ending with a fugue from Beethovens close friend Ferdinand Ries. Ries wrote in Paris 1808 his F major violin sonate Opus 8.1 with an additional Baroque fugue as a fifth part. 
I hesitate little to call Czernys sonata an important work in piano literature, and it is at least aiming for the classification "major work".  
The Czerny fugue is a true contrapunctal masterpiece of considerable complexity and technical difficulty. As we know Beethoven and Czerny were in close contact those years. It is unthinkable that Czerny did not at least play parts his first pianosonata for Beethoven, even more because the Hammerklavier Fugue is written in an idiom remarkably resembling the Czerny Fugue, however surpassing it in complexity and technical challenge. 
So no, the Hammerklavier Sonate is not the first major (classical style) pianosonata to so thoroughly incorporate a Baroque contrapuntal style (the fugue) within an originally Classical structure (the sonata form). I think the importance and uniqueness of the Hammerklavier fugue lies in its in the Classical era unprecedented complexity and its uncompromising technical difficulty. It is thanks to Liszt that this Sonate including a fugue (more then Opus 101 fugato, the 102:2 Cello Sonata fugue, or the Czerny Sonata for that matter) set a landmark in piano literature, leading to for example the Brahms Handel Variations fugue and off course the Liszt Sonata fugue.
However in concipiating the Hammerklavier sonata Beethoven is indebted significantly to his so very talented pupil Carl Czerny, who wrote this huge , complex and technically challenging first piano sonata including a fugue that ended up under the dust of history.
Otto Ede Pool (talk) 22:15, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Piano work with fugue within sonata form. 

message: Carl Czerny premiered the piece:
"Only Carl Czerny, who studied the sonata repeatedly with Beethoven and who premiered the piece,""
5. Autograph Tempo in Beethoven’s “Hammerklavier Sonata”—Practice and Theory
Otto Ede Pool (talk) 03:27, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not add this important information to the article? It's nearly two years later. 173.88.241.33 (talk) 00:34, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hammerklavier Premiere by Carl Czerny 

message: "In the twentieth century, Pierre Boulez's Piano Sonata No. 2 applies a serial syntax to the playing style of a Beethoven piano sonata." This statement is uncited and seems speculative at best. I have removed it.Opus131 (talk) 04:14, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boulez? 

message: There needs to be more discussion on this article about Beethoven's tempo markings, which are a contentious matter in general, but especially so for the Hammerklavier and have been almost since its publication. Last November, a user edited the durations of each movement, changing them from their average lengths in recorded performances to their supposed lengths were they to be played strictly at Beethoven's tempi (ignoring the fact that Beethoven did not wish for his works to be played at one tempo throughout). Without getting into too much detail, something ought to be mentioned of the amount of debate surrounding Beethoven's markings, whether he actually meant them to be taken strictly or as a guide or a starting point, and especially the fact that no recorded performance has ever come even close to these tempi. Much has been said about the first and last movements, but it is the adagio that stands out to me. The swiftest recording I have ever heard is that of Egon Petri in 1956, who played it in 14:20. Even the lifeless MIDI recording in the article, at 12:53, is still nowhere near the 8 minutes that are supposedly called for.
I suggest rather than list the duration of the movements, we simply give Beethoven's listed tempi, as well as some words about their history of contentiousness. Or we could simply revert back to the duration of the movements as they are normally performed. 81.141.23.19 (talk) 20:54, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tempo/Duration