Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 25

message: Instead of squabbling and bickering, and excessive use of uncivil words, might I suggest that editors return to the main point? and begin to offer new positive suggestions on how the article might be improved? if we have some new versions of sentences we can begin to comment and vote on them. Surely this would be time better spent than on arguments and venting hot air? thank you Peter morrell 09:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me clarify that I am neither an advocate for, nor an advocate against homeopathy. As far as I know, there simply is not enough evidence to support any conclusions with regard to the validity of the theory or with regard to the merits of the treatment. At the moment, some sections are argumentative and try to convince the reader that the whole idea is nonsense. There is no scientific basis for such a claim, just as the opposite cannot be claimed. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok I don't really want to get into a practice of classifying people into supporters or opponents but apparently I did not structure my wording well enough to avoid that implication. I was just trying to elicit an opinion from all the people I mentioned in the hope that they may offer a differing viewpoint and I couldn't think of a better way to word it. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  JS7: I appreciate you thanks, but would like to clarify that although I did bring it up on this talk page, it is not my "water memory claim." It is a significant part of the homeopathy discussion and I believe merits inclusion in the article considering the highly regarded RS. It is a topic I find interesting, am open-minded about and yet unconvinced. Anthon01 (talk) 07:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The abstract of the article in The Lancet says: "Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions." I think that this may well be an accurate meta-result. Note, especially, that the outcome does not imply that homeopathy has no merit, nor that there is no evidence for any effects. The abstract continues with: "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." While true, this is a suggestive statement, because the finding is also consistent with the notion that homeopathy has a small, but genuine effect. There is no way to tell which of the two is the case. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Has anyone done a study of possible biases in the Lancet article? Friarslantern (talk) 23:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

text:  They councluded that they found weak evidence for any effect. They did not say that they found reliable evidence for a small effect. Small effects should still demonstrate statistically significant differences on large trials. If the effect is so small that the trial has to become ridiculously large for the effect to become significant then it is pretty safe to say the effect has no practical implications and could just as easily be due to error. I fail to see any evidence for even a small effect in the Lancet results and the authors seem to agree "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." There are even tools to determine what is the minimum effect size that will be found significant if it exists: statistical power so if you want to establish that there could have been a small effect at least find a RS that did a power analysis on the Lancet data. Or if you want to do one for you own knowledge only, do one yourself (I assure you, you'll find the minimum effect size is quite small) JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

text:  Placebo effect = no effect, so since the study showed an improvement consistent with the placebo effect, then the placebo effect is the probable cause. Also notice that the effect was small - in the majority of cases it didn't help. Homeopathy is therefore shown to be ineffective in this study, and does not give the improvements claimed by homeopaths. Your trying to spin this study into some kind of support for homeopathy, when it is at least indifferent (saying homeopathy is as good as a sugar pill), shows that despite your claims you are not as unbiased as you may think you are. The mainstream scientific view of homeopathy is that homeopathy has no effect, and no mechanism by which an effect can be caused. There have been many good studies, and it now rests with homeopaths to prove their statements true. Homeopathy is a multi-billion pound industry, so there is plenty of money to spend on producing good, doubled-blinded, individualised, etc, studies. The fact that Borion (sp?) et al do not do this speaks volumes for their confidence in the efficacy of their treatments. I'm sure the authors of the study are pleased that you feel it is accurate, but your interpretation of their results leaves a lot to be desired. The current state of homeopathy is that there is a lot of good evidence suggesting that it has no effect (beyond placebo), no plausible notion of how it could have an effect, and only very poor evidence that it has any effect. Why are you trying to imply that there is some kind of evenly matched science on each side, or that there still remains a lot of doubt in the scientific community? This is simply not the case. The article as it is now is mostly good, with a discussion of homeopathy as homeopaths see it, and then a scholarly discussion of the scientific view. It could do with improvements, but is generally good as it is. If anything, the scientific view should be made more prominent  90.197.168.195 (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Logic does not work that way. The outcome is consistent with many things. Without further evidence, picking one of them as the truth is pov. Now, please discuss the topic, not the users. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The authors concluded that the current evidence is insufficient to conclude the existance of any effect. Note the default position in any scientific inquiry is the null hypothesis (all inferential statistics operate by rejecting the null hypothesis if there is an effect). The article even states this "When used, the null hypothesis is presumed true until statistical evidence in the form of a hypothesis test indicates otherwise". So, scientifically speaking, homeopathy is assumed to be ineffective until there is sufficient evidence to conclude otherwise. The researchers concluded that there was not sufficient evidence so the null hypothesis was accepted. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, the null hypothesis is that there is no difference within an experiment. That is not quite the same. One can do a larger experiment. Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  One can always do a bigger experiment. Just how big would the experiment have to be before you'd accept that there is no homeopathc effect? Your understanding of the scientific method is floored I'm afraid. The comments below still apply too. Also, putting comments halfway through a long thread is very confusing. Please reply at the bottom or make it clear that you are replying out of turn 86.146.119.116 (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In principle, a scientist never 'accepts' that something does or doesn't exist based on statistics alone. That said, expanding the meta-experiment as published in the Lancet would, if the measurement of 0,88 remained the same, only provide evidence that supports the notion of an effect. The value would have to increase, i.e. the measured effect in new studies would have to be weaker than in the published review, to make it otherwise. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Ah good old cherry picking again. Most of what I wrote was a discussion of the issue. Where is the hole in the "logic" of what I wrote? I am interested to why you think that there is some kind of parity between the evidence for an against homeopathy? I think we could work together if you answer these two questions clearly and concisely. If I am wrong about the second please explain what your view is. Thanks 90.197.168.195 (talk) 16:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I broadly agree with what James says; however, where it says in the above passage "...positive results from the use of homeopathy," [add refs here] we could then discuss WHAT refs to add there. A few days back someone posted some examples of these so-called 'positive studies.' Well, if there is some level of agreement (as opposed to ad hominem attacks) then we can add 1 or 2 of those items at that specific point in that passage, as references, choosing them carefully as the BEST. Does this sound a reasonable idea? Then as also suggested, folks can pin-point any specific sentences they wish to change, hopefully accompanied with a suggestion of versions for voting on or some mechanism for making a decision. thanks Peter morrell 15:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It sounds reasonable but I think we are still at the "assessing the level of agreement" stage. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Stating that, according to the Lancet article, there is insufficient evidence to claim homeopathy to be effective would be OK with me. Any suggestion that we (therefore) know for certain that it is ineffective, would not. Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You realise that, in scientific terms, whenever there is insufficient evidence for something it it is assumed that that thing is not real ie if there is insufficient evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy, it is assumed that homeopathy is ineffective. The current article doesn't actually imply we know anything "for certain". It does not use the words "prove", "disprove" or "impossible". "The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible[6] and directly opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge". Note the term implausible as opposed to impossible. So I can only assume you are objecting to statements like this (btw this whole process would go so much easier if people could quote passages they object to - then I wouldn't have to make these assumptions) "A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicine demonstrated that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo". Note the usage of the term "unlikely". The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects." Note the term "compatible". These statements are perfectly acceptable as the null hypothesis is always assumed in the absence of evidence. So can we please stop the strawman arguments and actually refer to what the current article says. The article uses scientific terminology throughout (suggested, compatible, statistically significant effect, no evidence) so it is completely unfounded to suggest that anyone is suggesting that anything can be known "for certain". It should be noted, however, that the pragmatic position that nothing can be known for certain does not forbid reasonable conclusions like this "homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo". JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: OK, at the moment we seem to have two suggestions. First, is the addition of 2 or 3 refs listed above of allegedly good studies (?), which have been interpreted by some as showing some effect of homeopathic intervention. Those refs, when their selection is agreed, could simply be added as cites to the wording-unchanged sentence already identified about 'positive studies.' Second, we have to put in some mention of water memory and the work of Benveniste. If there are more ideas of changes to be added, then please mention them. thanks Peter morrell 12:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Benveniste is already mentioned in the article. Anthon01 (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  We should refer to meta-analyses only as someone needs to seperate the reliable studies from the poorly conducted ones. It would be OR for any editor to perform this process themselves. Meta-analyses are almost always preferrable over original studies when they are available Wikipedia:Primary_sources#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources. Seeing as every meta-analysis (at least every meta-analysis I am aware of) on homeopathy is already included in the article I highly doubt that there is any study on the efficacy of homeopathic interventions to add. No one is going to agree on an original study to add because everyone is aware that people can just cherry-pick whatever studies reach conclusions they agree with, with complete disregard for the scienitific quality of the study. So I guess the only way consensus could possibly be reached is if the wikipedia community agreed on a selection criteria beforehand. Of course people like me are going to push for this selection criteria "large, double-blind, randomised controlled trials only" and it just so happens these were basically the selection criteria used in the Lancet analysis so I highly doubt any consensus will be reached here either. The only trials that have shown homeopathy is effective are small and/or of lower quality so undoubtably anyone who disagrees with the conclusion that homeopathy effects are placebo effects will want such trials included. Others will maintain that the results of such trial are completely unreliable and should not be included. Of course, it is never ending debates (and believe me, it will be never ending) like these that are the reason meta-analyses are preferred in the first place. The simple fact of the matter is, deciding what constintutes an "allegedly good study" is OR. The only reason wikipedians should allow original studies is that there is not always a recent enough meta-analysis. Shang et al., however, is a 2005 analysis. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I think the idea of water memory is essential to the theory, and should therefore be mentioned, with sources for research and arguments, but again without claiming proof or refutation. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What are you talking about? There is no proof of long term water memory, and it is a thoroughly discredited idea. See the water memory page. Your claim to be unbiased is as strong as the homeopathic effect. You are right that it should be mentioned, but to leave out the criticism is a disgraceful suggestion 86.146.119.116 (talk) 14:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

text:  I agree that water memory is essential to homeopathy and should be mentioned. We have an entire water memory page that is somewhat orphaned because water memory does not receive a mention in the main homeopathy article. However, I also agree that water memory is a thoroughly discredited idea. I think the main homeopathy article should offer a brief (perhpas only one or two sentence) discussion of water memory and link to the main water memory page. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  How have you determined that it is completely discredited? Anthon01 (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: There is plenty of evidence that water has a memory in the femtoseconds, but that timescale is not relevant to homeopathy. Antelan talk 03:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So provide the sources for this evidence. Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Do you have any evidence to suggest that homeopaths actually individualize the treatments ie some form of evidence (not just what homeopaths say) that suggests that homeopaths actually offer different treatments depending on different variables? Do you have any evidence which indicates that homeopaths actually agree on what is the best "individualized" treatment for a particular patient? I completely and totally dispute this idea that homeopaths actually individualize anything. I think they collect a whole bunch of patient data and proceed to ignore it and base their decision on a stereotype or heuristic. Heuristics btw are pretty falliable, see for example, the availability heuristic . How could they possibly take every single variable into consideration and weight them all accordingly? Humans simply aren't capable of that level of statistical analysis necessary to do this. To say that homeopaths actually individualize treatments in the way they say they do goes against pretty much all the evidence on psychology. If you want to include a sentence such as "Homeopaths state that they individualize their treatments for the patient" (it has to be state because they don't really) then fine, but then in order to balance it we should review the evidence about "individualized treatments" specifically, the journal articles which suggest they give the same treatment for the same condition (I have read some, I'm sure I can find them if necessary). Then we can point out that even we can still construct a double blind, randomized placebo controlled trial while allowing for individulaisation by just swapping out the treatments at the lab. We can go in, let the homeopath talk to the patient, let them prescribe whatever they want and if they are in the placebo group we can swap out the treatment and just not tell the homeopath prescribing it. Otherwise we give them whatever they prescribed. After that we can point out that many of these individualised trials, like the aforementioned one, still demonstrate that homeopathy is ineffective. Then we can point out all the psychological evidence that suggests that homeopaths do not individualize their treatments in a rational, logical way. Turns out there is even a review in this area [individualised homeopathy], "http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/acm.1998.4.371", which points out that "The evidence, however, is not convincing because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies". So hey, I guess it turns out that Shang et al. were right to exclude such studies as they are not very well conducted. Also the better conducted trials of individualised homeopathy also seem to be more likely to conclude that it is ineffective. "The pooled rate ratio of the methodologically best studies, however, was clearly smaller and not statistically significant" If you want to add that meta-analysis into the homeopathy article with those two quotes, then fine by me. Also Linde goes over various issues with these studies eg can't really be replicated which are the reason they are not preferred. This should also receive mention. JamesStewart7 (talk) 10:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: From your reply you would get the impression that the entire content of my comment was about some sort of financial incentive for practicing homeopathy. I made no mention of this. The issue at hand here is whether this reference should be included "Linde, K., Melchart, D. (1998) Randomized Controlled Trials of Individualized Homeopathy: A State-of-the-Art Review. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 4(4), 371-388" This should be the ideal article really. Your concern was that trials on homeopathy are not individualized. Here is an meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy trials. Is this supposed to be evidence "derive(d) from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors" If you have an objection to the article I would expect you to detail your objection to the scientific methodology used instead reverting to such ad hominem attacks (I guess the article is worthless becaues they are "theoretical objectors" right?), not to mention the ad hominem attack against me. I am aware that this type of argument has been circular for a long time and it basically boils down to two things. Homeopaths want to admit anecdotal evidence as support for homeopathy "I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say" Scientists and skeptics will never let let that happen. The long list of cognitive biases prevents anecdotal evidence from being anything other than worthless. There is very strong scientific evidence for the existance for some of them. Homeopaths also say that homeopathy is open to scientific investigation but often say randomized controlled trials are not a suitable research tool without saying why. In the case that they do give a reason, the reason is always (that I have seen anyway) individualization. When an analysis of individualized trials (which should meet all their criteria) is presented which finds the best studies find non-significant effects apparently that review isn't good enough because the researchers are biased or something. It is pretty hard to satisfy anyone who keeps moving the goal posts. So tell me, how could someone prove that homeopathy is ineffective, if homeopathy, in fact, does not work? How would they design the study so that it both achieves a reasonable level scientific rigor and satisfies the criteria set by homeopaths. If it is simply a matter of individualization, it has already been done. If no one can answer this question then we are forced to assume that homeopathy is not open to scientific investigation. Then the next step will be to look for a RS that states that this. JamesStewart7 (talk) 12:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: It is a legitimate question, which variants of homeopathy are tested by various experimental designs. Although it may be a minority, individualized homeopathy has a significant following. Just what are you objecting to? Do you think we should not mention various forms of homeopathy? Or should we not mention the meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy? If so, I haven't really understood your reasons for wanting to leave out one or the other of these points. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You should mention whatever is appropriate for a factually correct and properly cited article on homeopathy. Explaining what homoeopathy actually is should be part of that. Taking the assertions of homoepaths at face value regarding what homeopathy is, or responding to every one of their made-up ideas about what's wrong with science, should not be. Only people who are willing to write true and relevant things should be working on any Wikipedia articles; people who believe in homeopathy are by definition not living the realm of the true or relevant, and their ideas and words have no place here. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Randy look at the general philosophy section. It is full of made up ideas. It would also be silly to cut such a section from the article. I think it is important to say what homeopaths believe before you start ripping into it. So how about we state that homeopaths believe that they individualize their treatments in the general philosophy or treatments section with all the other untestable or thoroughly refuted ideas and then place the Linde individualized homeopathy meta-analysis into the medical analysis section. I agree with your suggestion that we can't litter the article with ad-hoc explanations as to why homeopathy does not work but I don't think the concept of individualization is either ad hoc, or an explanation as to why homeopathy does not work. Individualization is a conecept similar to "treating the whole patient" (holistic health), which appears often throughout alternative medicine so I don't really doubt that many homeopaths consider it essential to their practice. Holistic health/Individualization is not about excusing why the treatment don't work, it is about taking a shot at conventional medicine as the somewhat POV article demonstrates "Traditional medical philosophy approached patient care as simply attempting to correct physical symptoms, using standardized methods such as the prescription of drugs or the undertaking of surgery, while the patient is only passively involved" (I'll be tagging the article as POV in just a moment). So maybe there is a POV reason to not include the individualization claim but "providing an excuse that the treatments do not work" is not it. Also despite what Peter morell suggests, individualized treatment is totally testable and there are scientific studies that demonstrate individualized homeopathy is just as ineffective as ordinary homeopathy so it's not like it's a claim that scientists cannot counter. JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I can suscribe to most of that, but ... The criteria for including things in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. The beliefs of editors have no place in the article and are otherwise irrelevant. Only the quality of their editing matters. So. Do you care to comment on my proposals, or should we drop this discussion? --Art Carlson (talk) 21:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Verifiability is a perfectly fine criterion. Here, it would mean finding the major publications or websites that support homeopathy and citing them to show "what homeopaths believe," then finding the responses from scientists that show why each belief is incorrect. It does not mean responding to things brought up by one anonymous person on the article's talk page; there is no way to verify that such objections are anything but one homeopath's series of back-and-forth responses to other Wikipedia editors, made up on the spot. Thus, such things are neither verifiable nor notable. My point is the same: the homeopathy fans on this talk page can and MUST be entirely ignored. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed on the verifiability point. I'm sure someone can find a reference that states homeopaths believe in individualization or holistic health or similar. A quick search turned up this "http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj6002198.pdf". It is published in the American Journal of Pharmaceutical education and it states that "Hahnemann formulated the principle that medications and doses must be highly individualized for each patient following an exhaustive and lengthy examination of each patient by a homeopathic physician Because each treatment is highly individualized based on the physical, mental, and emotional status of each patient, patients who would be given identical treatment with conventional medicine are often given different treatments under homeopathy". I haven't read the whole article carefully but their may be criticisms in there too as the article is clearly not trying to legitamize homeopathy "Homeopathy and legitimate medicine are two radically different branches of medicine." Looks like there are verifiable sources that state that individulization is part of homeopathy. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Anti-fan talk should be equally ignored, something that is often forgotten. It's not up to us to decide if scientists do in fact show something to be correct or incorrect. We can and need only mention that they, rather than we, come to certain conclusions. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  If the scientists say something is equivelant to a placebo (like they did in the Lancet article) then by your own arguments, we should state that the evidence suggets that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know its' a difficult concept to grasp, but no, the article should not state that. The article should state that the authors say something (not this, by the way). Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why shouldn't it state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo" with supporting refs. I've just reviewed your comments here Guido, and I've found your twisting of the scientific method offensive, and bending of wikipedia rule and policy to suit your bias and POV equally offensive. You are a troll and are adding nothing constructive to this talk page, and I'm asking you to please leave until after this current situation has been resolved. Your statements are not supported by science and your claims to be unbiased are laughable. I have been assuming good faith, but you have taken this too far now so please leave. I suggest you read some good books on the scientific method and how it progresses (written from the mainstream perspective), and come back in a month or two. I'd advise other people to stop feeding the troll 81.153.131.222 (talk) 12:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attacks are not welcome on Wikipedia. A warning has been placed on your talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hilarious! Some might say you aren't welcome for your twisting of the truth and wikipedia policy. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 18:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Why shouldn't the article state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo"? To begin with because it isn't strictly true. There are a lot of studies reporting better performance for homeopathy than for placebo. Even in the 21 trials of homeopathy that the Lancet meta-analysis described as "large trials of higher quality", "weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies" was found. We can report that the Lancet study concludes "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.", but this wording is considerably less decided than your paraphrase. --Art Carlson (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Rant) I did say if it's supported by the refs. It was an example. There are not any good studies showing that homeopathic concoctions have the medicinal effects claimed. That i the crux of the matter. Homeopathy doesn't work, has been repeatedly shown not to work, and there is no remotely plausible mechanism by which it could work. The article should describe homeopathy as homeopaths practice it, but it should spare no criticism to avoid hurting these misguided charlatans feeling. Homeopathy is discredited and homeopaths are (either intentionall or because they are self-deluded) dishonest. These facts are true and verifiable. Homeopaths clinging to non-specific, statistically insignificant, weak results and their promoting of pointless customer satisfaction surveys shows the extent of their delusions. This article is currently in a pretty good state, being more than fair to homeopathy while presenting scientifically valid criticisms. If anything this article is too postive towards homeopathy and its fundamentally unethical practitioners. Doctors should not lie to their patients, and unfortunately that's all homeopaths do. I realise this is a rant, and is not directed at you Art - you arr generally a force for good here, but I'm getting sick of the misleading statements made by homeopathic supporters. They have had a lot of practice at twisting the truth I guess 81.153.131.222 (talk) 13:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Seeing as this "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects" is exactly what the article states I'm not really seeing what the problem is here. "This finding" is roughly equivelant to "the study" anyway. If neither Guido den Broeder or  81.153.131.222 are suggesting we change this statement, I suggest we drop this discussion right here. My response to Guido was based on the inference that he/she was suggesting that was suggesting we change the article from the current form, which was based on the assumption that everyone here is trying to focus their comments on constructive ways in which the article may be changed. I think this is a fair inference as Guido states "The article should state that the authors..." whereas the current article uses "The study concluded". I have to voice my strong opposition against this wording. "The authors" makes it sound like it is just their opinion. It is not. No significant effects were found in the study. Not significant means that any variations between the treatment group and the placebo group may be accounted for by chance. This is the conclusion that every scientist makes when they find non-significant results. This is the only conclusion that can be made. You do not conclude the existance of a small effect on the basis of a non-significant result. You can only conclude there is a small effect when you actually find a small effect. If the authors were to say there may be a small effect they would just be speculating. So if they said this then it would be "the authors state...." because their statement would be some statement in the discussion that is not directly supported by their results. The results are non signficant, which means the null hypothesis is accepted and as the comparison group was a placebo control group the results are compatible with the notion that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. This is just a fact. It is indisputeable. Even if one day the study is found to be totally flawed and we find that that homeopathy is a miracle cure, it would still be completely correct to say, "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects". This is just how inferential statistics works. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree 81.153.131.222 (talk) 10:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Studies do not make conclusions, only authors (and readers) do. Others may draw different conclusions from the same study. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you want to define a new philosophy of science, go and do it somewhere else. The conclusions of the study are the studies conclusions. If someone else has written a paper refuting it then we could cite that. Stop trying to push POV and reduce science to opinion. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Authors do make interpretations based on the study (the bulk of the discussion) and other authors may make differing conclusions. However, whether or not the hypothesis was supported is often not a matter of interpretation (except in rare cases where the hypothesis is not clearly defined which should never happen but it does. The Lancet study is not one of these cases). In the Lancet study it is simply a matter of looking through the results and checking for significance. As the results of the study are a fact and not an interpretation we are going to use "the study found..." Science is not just a matter of opinion. The same arguments have been done to death on pages like this one Creation evolution controversy. They weren't accepted there. They won't be accepted here. Facts don't change because people can't accept reality. JamesStewart7 (talk) 03:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I've said before, their conclusion seems correct to me. It is nonetheless their conclusion. Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  In the same sense that science fans (like you and me) must be ignored/reverted when they try to make changes to the article not based on reliable sources. If Peter or you says something like "I have often heard homeopaths/scientists use such-and-such an argument", then that might be something that belongs in the article, so the rest of us can try to find reliable sources supporting or negating it. That's the sort of thing that talk pages are for. This is all pretty trivial, and I don't believe you really want to say anything else, but you keep choosing wording that is unnecessarily provocative (Peter MUST be ignored). If you'd back off on the rhetoric we could put our energies into improving the article. --Art Carlson (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Constructive ideas 

message: There are serious issues ahead which are unresolved because of a coflict both in theoretical assumptions and in observations between so-called scientists converging on this topic and those of practising homeopaths. People who use homeopathy will never accept crude statistical globalising of data using meta-analyses, not principally because they regard it is statistical sleight-of-hand (which they do), which predictably deletes the positive results from many studies (which it does), but primarily because homeopathy as an empirical medical practice, as opposed to a so-called mathematical problem on paper, individualises treatment for every case and acts according to its own principles of sickness cause and cure for each case without any regard for the pooling of data that is possible in allopathic studies. There simply is a gulf between the two methodologically and in terms of how it is practiced on the ground. You don't even have accepted disease labels in homeopathy, so how can you rig up a double blinded study? you treat each case as a separate entity with its own unique twists and turns of treatment as the discourse between patient and practitioner evolves. Nor can that be predicted in advance as a comparative study demands. No homeopath can give one remedy for a whole crowd of folks allegedly with the same 'disease' and expect anything other than a zero outcome no better than placebo. They must give different remedies to each and a differing pattern of sequential remedies according to the properties of each case. The two situations are entirely different. Therefore, double blinding and standardised procedures are not possible. Even patients with closely similar 'conditions' are not going to receive from a good homeopath the same remedies in the same doses or in the same sequence because of the unique differences in each case and in each family history. This is one issue that anyone who has seeen good homeopathy in practice is going to despair about how this can be satisfactorily converted into a sound statistical analysis acceptable to all sides on a totally neutral basis. How can it be done? The secondary issue about potentisation and water memory is a big side-issue, a damp squib; until you have proof that homeopathy works according to the principles it follows, then there is little point in even venting hot air about a possible mechanism. At the moment the issue is stalled at the first hurdle due to these methodological issues over good trials that satisfy all criteria. Lancet and other meta-analyses certainly do NOT meet these criteria and until good large studies that address these complex issues are tackled and resolved then no homeopath in the world will respect the alleged outcomes of such studies. I hope this clarifies some issues. thanks Peter morrell 09:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any evidence to suggest that homeopaths actually individualize the treatments ie some form of evidence (not just what homeopaths say) that suggests that homeopaths actually offer different treatments depending on different variables? Do you have any evidence which indicates that homeopaths actually agree on what is the best "individualized" treatment for a particular patient? I completely and totally dispute this idea that homeopaths actually individualize anything. I think they collect a whole bunch of patient data and proceed to ignore it and base their decision on a stereotype or heuristic. Heuristics btw are pretty falliable, see for example, the availability heuristic . How could they possibly take every single variable into consideration and weight them all accordingly? Humans simply aren't capable of that level of statistical analysis necessary to do this. To say that homeopaths actually individualize treatments in the way they say they do goes against pretty much all the evidence on psychology. If you want to include a sentence such as "Homeopaths state that they individualize their treatments for the patient" (it has to be state because they don't really) then fine, but then in order to balance it we should review the evidence about "individualized treatments" specifically, the journal articles which suggest they give the same treatment for the same condition (I have read some, I'm sure I can find them if necessary). Then we can point out that even we can still construct a double blind, randomized placebo controlled trial while allowing for individulaisation by just swapping out the treatments at the lab. We can go in, let the homeopath talk to the patient, let them prescribe whatever they want and if they are in the placebo group we can swap out the treatment and just not tell the homeopath prescribing it. Otherwise we give them whatever they prescribed. After that we can point out that many of these individualised trials, like the aforementioned one, still demonstrate that homeopathy is ineffective. Then we can point out all the psychological evidence that suggests that homeopaths do not individualize their treatments in a rational, logical way. Turns out there is even a review in this area [individualised homeopathy], "http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/acm.1998.4.371", which points out that "The evidence, however, is not convincing because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies". So hey, I guess it turns out that Shang et al. were right to exclude such studies as they are not very well conducted. Also the better conducted trials of individualised homeopathy also seem to be more likely to conclude that it is ineffective. "The pooled rate ratio of the methodologically best studies, however, was clearly smaller and not statistically significant" If you want to add that meta-analysis into the homeopathy article with those two quotes, then fine by me. Also Linde goes over various issues with these studies eg can't really be replicated which are the reason they are not preferred. This should also receive mention. JamesStewart7 (talk) 10:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: From your reply you would get the impression that the entire content of my comment was about some sort of financial incentive for practicing homeopathy. I made no mention of this. The issue at hand here is whether this reference should be included "Linde, K., Melchart, D. (1998) Randomized Controlled Trials of Individualized Homeopathy: A State-of-the-Art Review. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 4(4), 371-388" This should be the ideal article really. Your concern was that trials on homeopathy are not individualized. Here is an meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy trials. Is this supposed to be evidence "derive(d) from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors" If you have an objection to the article I would expect you to detail your objection to the scientific methodology used instead reverting to such ad hominem attacks (I guess the article is worthless becaues they are "theoretical objectors" right?), not to mention the ad hominem attack against me. I am aware that this type of argument has been circular for a long time and it basically boils down to two things. Homeopaths want to admit anecdotal evidence as support for homeopathy "I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say" Scientists and skeptics will never let let that happen. The long list of cognitive biases prevents anecdotal evidence from being anything other than worthless. There is very strong scientific evidence for the existance for some of them. Homeopaths also say that homeopathy is open to scientific investigation but often say randomized controlled trials are not a suitable research tool without saying why. In the case that they do give a reason, the reason is always (that I have seen anyway) individualization. When an analysis of individualized trials (which should meet all their criteria) is presented which finds the best studies find non-significant effects apparently that review isn't good enough because the researchers are biased or something. It is pretty hard to satisfy anyone who keeps moving the goal posts. So tell me, how could someone prove that homeopathy is ineffective, if homeopathy, in fact, does not work? How would they design the study so that it both achieves a reasonable level scientific rigor and satisfies the criteria set by homeopaths. If it is simply a matter of individualization, it has already been done. If no one can answer this question then we are forced to assume that homeopathy is not open to scientific investigation. Then the next step will be to look for a RS that states that this. JamesStewart7 (talk) 12:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: It is a legitimate question, which variants of homeopathy are tested by various experimental designs. Although it may be a minority, individualized homeopathy has a significant following. Just what are you objecting to? Do you think we should not mention various forms of homeopathy? Or should we not mention the meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy? If so, I haven't really understood your reasons for wanting to leave out one or the other of these points. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You should mention whatever is appropriate for a factually correct and properly cited article on homeopathy. Explaining what homoeopathy actually is should be part of that. Taking the assertions of homoepaths at face value regarding what homeopathy is, or responding to every one of their made-up ideas about what's wrong with science, should not be. Only people who are willing to write true and relevant things should be working on any Wikipedia articles; people who believe in homeopathy are by definition not living the realm of the true or relevant, and their ideas and words have no place here. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Randy look at the general philosophy section. It is full of made up ideas. It would also be silly to cut such a section from the article. I think it is important to say what homeopaths believe before you start ripping into it. So how about we state that homeopaths believe that they individualize their treatments in the general philosophy or treatments section with all the other untestable or thoroughly refuted ideas and then place the Linde individualized homeopathy meta-analysis into the medical analysis section. I agree with your suggestion that we can't litter the article with ad-hoc explanations as to why homeopathy does not work but I don't think the concept of individualization is either ad hoc, or an explanation as to why homeopathy does not work. Individualization is a conecept similar to "treating the whole patient" (holistic health), which appears often throughout alternative medicine so I don't really doubt that many homeopaths consider it essential to their practice. Holistic health/Individualization is not about excusing why the treatment don't work, it is about taking a shot at conventional medicine as the somewhat POV article demonstrates "Traditional medical philosophy approached patient care as simply attempting to correct physical symptoms, using standardized methods such as the prescription of drugs or the undertaking of surgery, while the patient is only passively involved" (I'll be tagging the article as POV in just a moment). So maybe there is a POV reason to not include the individualization claim but "providing an excuse that the treatments do not work" is not it. Also despite what Peter morell suggests, individualized treatment is totally testable and there are scientific studies that demonstrate individualized homeopathy is just as ineffective as ordinary homeopathy so it's not like it's a claim that scientists cannot counter. JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I can suscribe to most of that, but ... The criteria for including things in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. The beliefs of editors have no place in the article and are otherwise irrelevant. Only the quality of their editing matters. So. Do you care to comment on my proposals, or should we drop this discussion? --Art Carlson (talk) 21:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Verifiability is a perfectly fine criterion. Here, it would mean finding the major publications or websites that support homeopathy and citing them to show "what homeopaths believe," then finding the responses from scientists that show why each belief is incorrect. It does not mean responding to things brought up by one anonymous person on the article's talk page; there is no way to verify that such objections are anything but one homeopath's series of back-and-forth responses to other Wikipedia editors, made up on the spot. Thus, such things are neither verifiable nor notable. My point is the same: the homeopathy fans on this talk page can and MUST be entirely ignored. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed on the verifiability point. I'm sure someone can find a reference that states homeopaths believe in individualization or holistic health or similar. A quick search turned up this "http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj6002198.pdf". It is published in the American Journal of Pharmaceutical education and it states that "Hahnemann formulated the principle that medications and doses must be highly individualized for each patient following an exhaustive and lengthy examination of each patient by a homeopathic physician Because each treatment is highly individualized based on the physical, mental, and emotional status of each patient, patients who would be given identical treatment with conventional medicine are often given different treatments under homeopathy". I haven't read the whole article carefully but their may be criticisms in there too as the article is clearly not trying to legitamize homeopathy "Homeopathy and legitimate medicine are two radically different branches of medicine." Looks like there are verifiable sources that state that individulization is part of homeopathy. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Anti-fan talk should be equally ignored, something that is often forgotten. It's not up to us to decide if scientists do in fact show something to be correct or incorrect. We can and need only mention that they, rather than we, come to certain conclusions. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  If the scientists say something is equivelant to a placebo (like they did in the Lancet article) then by your own arguments, we should state that the evidence suggets that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know its' a difficult concept to grasp, but no, the article should not state that. The article should state that the authors say something (not this, by the way). Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why shouldn't it state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo" with supporting refs. I've just reviewed your comments here Guido, and I've found your twisting of the scientific method offensive, and bending of wikipedia rule and policy to suit your bias and POV equally offensive. You are a troll and are adding nothing constructive to this talk page, and I'm asking you to please leave until after this current situation has been resolved. Your statements are not supported by science and your claims to be unbiased are laughable. I have been assuming good faith, but you have taken this too far now so please leave. I suggest you read some good books on the scientific method and how it progresses (written from the mainstream perspective), and come back in a month or two. I'd advise other people to stop feeding the troll 81.153.131.222 (talk) 12:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attacks are not welcome on Wikipedia. A warning has been placed on your talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hilarious! Some might say you aren't welcome for your twisting of the truth and wikipedia policy. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 18:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Why shouldn't the article state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo"? To begin with because it isn't strictly true. There are a lot of studies reporting better performance for homeopathy than for placebo. Even in the 21 trials of homeopathy that the Lancet meta-analysis described as "large trials of higher quality", "weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies" was found. We can report that the Lancet study concludes "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.", but this wording is considerably less decided than your paraphrase. --Art Carlson (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Rant) I did say if it's supported by the refs. It was an example. There are not any good studies showing that homeopathic concoctions have the medicinal effects claimed. That i the crux of the matter. Homeopathy doesn't work, has been repeatedly shown not to work, and there is no remotely plausible mechanism by which it could work. The article should describe homeopathy as homeopaths practice it, but it should spare no criticism to avoid hurting these misguided charlatans feeling. Homeopathy is discredited and homeopaths are (either intentionall or because they are self-deluded) dishonest. These facts are true and verifiable. Homeopaths clinging to non-specific, statistically insignificant, weak results and their promoting of pointless customer satisfaction surveys shows the extent of their delusions. This article is currently in a pretty good state, being more than fair to homeopathy while presenting scientifically valid criticisms. If anything this article is too postive towards homeopathy and its fundamentally unethical practitioners. Doctors should not lie to their patients, and unfortunately that's all homeopaths do. I realise this is a rant, and is not directed at you Art - you arr generally a force for good here, but I'm getting sick of the misleading statements made by homeopathic supporters. They have had a lot of practice at twisting the truth I guess 81.153.131.222 (talk) 13:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Seeing as this "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects" is exactly what the article states I'm not really seeing what the problem is here. "This finding" is roughly equivelant to "the study" anyway. If neither Guido den Broeder or  81.153.131.222 are suggesting we change this statement, I suggest we drop this discussion right here. My response to Guido was based on the inference that he/she was suggesting that was suggesting we change the article from the current form, which was based on the assumption that everyone here is trying to focus their comments on constructive ways in which the article may be changed. I think this is a fair inference as Guido states "The article should state that the authors..." whereas the current article uses "The study concluded". I have to voice my strong opposition against this wording. "The authors" makes it sound like it is just their opinion. It is not. No significant effects were found in the study. Not significant means that any variations between the treatment group and the placebo group may be accounted for by chance. This is the conclusion that every scientist makes when they find non-significant results. This is the only conclusion that can be made. You do not conclude the existance of a small effect on the basis of a non-significant result. You can only conclude there is a small effect when you actually find a small effect. If the authors were to say there may be a small effect they would just be speculating. So if they said this then it would be "the authors state...." because their statement would be some statement in the discussion that is not directly supported by their results. The results are non signficant, which means the null hypothesis is accepted and as the comparison group was a placebo control group the results are compatible with the notion that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. This is just a fact. It is indisputeable. Even if one day the study is found to be totally flawed and we find that that homeopathy is a miracle cure, it would still be completely correct to say, "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects". This is just how inferential statistics works. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree 81.153.131.222 (talk) 10:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  Studies do not make conclusions, only authors (and readers) do. Others may draw different conclusions from the same study. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you want to define a new philosophy of science, go and do it somewhere else. The conclusions of the study are the studies conclusions. If someone else has written a paper refuting it then we could cite that. Stop trying to push POV and reduce science to opinion. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Authors do make interpretations based on the study (the bulk of the discussion) and other authors may make differing conclusions. However, whether or not the hypothesis was supported is often not a matter of interpretation (except in rare cases where the hypothesis is not clearly defined which should never happen but it does. The Lancet study is not one of these cases). In the Lancet study it is simply a matter of looking through the results and checking for significance. As the results of the study are a fact and not an interpretation we are going to use "the study found..." Science is not just a matter of opinion. The same arguments have been done to death on pages like this one Creation evolution controversy. They weren't accepted there. They won't be accepted here. Facts don't change because people can't accept reality. JamesStewart7 (talk) 03:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I've said before, their conclusion seems correct to me. It is nonetheless their conclusion. Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  In the same sense that science fans (like you and me) must be ignored/reverted when they try to make changes to the article not based on reliable sources. If Peter or you says something like "I have often heard homeopaths/scientists use such-and-such an argument", then that might be something that belongs in the article, so the rest of us can try to find reliable sources supporting or negating it. That's the sort of thing that talk pages are for. This is all pretty trivial, and I don't believe you really want to say anything else, but you keep choosing wording that is unnecessarily provocative (Peter MUST be ignored). If you'd back off on the rhetoric we could put our energies into improving the article. --Art Carlson (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Constructive ideas - break

message: :::PERHAPS you thinkt aht you're insults and slanders will stop me from working hardto improve wikipedia. if that is your mindset, fine, but i must warn you that you are wrong. i am not a straw-man and my support fro homeopathic medicine is as sincere and honest as is your oposition to homeopathic mediine. there are some whose mindsets prevent them from beliving that any-one who disagress with them is serious, but that is again the typeo of attitude that is poison to any free editable encyclopeia. i was under the impression that this was a forum in which the body of human knowledge can be placed together and amde easily accessible to the commonf veiwr, but increasingaly have been notocing signs that a few people (not necesarily the people here, but a few editors in gerneral) consider wikipedia to be their own private fortress in which no dissenting opinion no mnater how well-sourced or how comon it might be outside their little bubble is permitted. looking back i must admits that i have been overreacting alittle bit on this talkpage and that i have failed to obersve good faith on the part of my fellow editors and that i should apologize for that. however, i am not the onyl one who has been behaving contrary to the stated goals of wikipedia and i alsmo must observe that in your zeal to make sure that the drug companies get their way in all areas of published research that you have ignored your obligation toassume good faith on my part as much as I have. i Still want to work past this and if we are able to cease the constant bckering and hostility and focus on improiving this article then i think that i can be a much better article thatn the biased slop it currently is. Smith Jones (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which is edited based on it's policies - some of which contradict your interpretation of what Wikipedia is - hence your problems. I encourage you to review WP:NOT to help you with your understanding. Shot info (talk) 00:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow you actually managed to apologise for not assuming good faith and accuse everyone of pandering to drug companies in the same post! JamesStewart7 (talk) 10:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

text: i have revewied those informaitons more times that ic an possibly counts, and i see nothing in them that specifically rejects theidea of homeopathic medicine. Smith Jones (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  we al need to grow up! 

message: There is a bot that will automatically archive old threads: .  Since this page sees quite a bit of discussion, I think it would be beneficial to use this bot.  The howto is here, but to summarize, the main variables that can be set are how old the thread has to be to be archived, and how big the archives can be.  I think archiving threads at the age of one week, and an having archive size of 200 KB would be a good place to start. I'll set it up if there is a consensus to use it. --Phirazo 21:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, if there isn't any objections, I'll manually combine some of the old archives.  A few are at 30K, which is too small this subject.   only goes up to 36, and I'd like to stay under that for as long as possible.  --Phirazo 21:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I have enabled Miszabot to archive this page. --Phirazo 19:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please go ahead. It's getting problematic to load this talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 21:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

text: It is running now, and I have set it to archive threads older than two weeks. --Phirazo 18:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Automatic archiving 

message: Under GeneralPhilosophy, Law of similarity, could an admin please change "symptoms similar to of those disease being treated " to "symptoms similar to those of the disease being treated"? I'm trawling through WP looking for "to of" to correct! Not controversial, not urgent, except that having found it I'd like to get it fixed.  Thanks PamD (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  typo to clear up 

message: Why are comments on this page disappearing or moving around seemingly at random? Can somebody please fix this or put a stop to it. It's hard enough to follow this debate as it is. Thanks! --147.171.255.159 (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I have everything sorted out. Threads older than two weeks have been archived here, and all the newer information is back.  If I missed something, let me know.  --Phirazo 18:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk page problems 

message: This study has been mentioned before, and Dana Ullman has introduced a ref to it in the Potassium dichromate article, stating that it shows homeopathy to be effective above placebo in treating COPD. If this is true then it is relevant for here, however I'm very sceptical, so could a few of us please give this journal a good review. It is from the Chest Journal (impact, rating?) and can be found here. Sorry if this has been discussed before --88.172.132.94 (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Strange that the standard errors on the two groups actually overlap, particularly the errors of both length of stay and extubations. Since this is a very small difference in a very small clinical trial this isn't particularly convincing evidence of anything. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am a little puzzled by your reaction. What errors are you talking about? Here is info on Chest.  Click on the 'Chest" link to get detailed info. It is one of the most reputable journals. The difference between the 2 groups is significant. Anthon01 (talk) 22:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: These are not standard errors, but standard deviations. The difference will become significant if the number of cases is high enough, even if the overlap is large, as long as the means do not converge. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When that happens, it may be noteworthy. Antelan talk 22:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it has happened, as the article shows. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean when the number of cases becomes high enough (current study had 50 cases). Favorite line from the study: The effect may be best explained by cybernetics, which means that the information of the homeopathic drug acts consensually on the regulator. Antelan talk 22:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And 50 cases proved to be high enough. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How can you say it was not due to the skewed distribution of healthier patients? Fifty is not exactly a large sample. David D. (Talk) 22:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying that the assumption of a normal distribution was incorrect? It would not be decisive, I wager. Fifty is quite large for these purposes. Oftentimes, twenty is already enough. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm saying with a small number of patients there might not be a normal distribution by chance. This is always the big flaw with medical trials, Pharma or homeopath alike. David D. (Talk) 22:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The normal distribution is assumed for the population, not the sample. The parameters of the distribution are estimated from the sample, which is always open to uncertainty, but that does not necessarily lead to an overestimation of significancy. There is a lot more to it than that, but with 50 patients it is all likely to be a very minor issue. The thing to watch out for is the occurrence of outliers, which should always be investigated (e.g., they can be misdiagnosed patients). Guido den Broeder (talk) 21:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I have no idea why? Please explain. Anthon01 (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I think you do know. Now if you'll pardon me, I need to quantum rectify my tea with a flux capacitor. Jefffire (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  No I don't. Anthon01 (talk) 23:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Gobbledygook. David D. (Talk) 23:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please look at the definitions of those words. The study should be judge on whether it is a RS first, then study design, and not the choice of words in the discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 00:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Only 50 in the sample has been discussed. David D. (Talk) 00:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Probability was 1 in 10,000. You comments above seem to be based on a 'belief' that homeopathy doesn't work. Is that right? Anthon01 (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say the same for any trial with so few participants. It has nothing to do with homeopathy. David D. (Talk) 05:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: That probability is the liklihood of the set of data representing a "real" difference in in the mean and variation that derives from the treatment, and is dependent upon the assumptions that 1. there was no "real" difference between the groups prior to the treatment and 2. no "real" difference in the application of the treatment compared to the placebo. I challenged that first assumption (see my comments on the other talk page). — Scientizzle 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  What is your reason for challenging the first assumption? Anthon01 (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: There are two studies currently in the works. Anthon01 (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When they report results, we'll chat. For now, see Scientizzle's point, below. Antelan talk 19:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, discussion would be appropriate here if the article were used to provide scientific evidence for homeopathy.  I can see a difference (an error in the control preparation which could plausibly make a difference in effectiveness).  But perhapsTalk:Potassium_dichromate#COPD would be better. — Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 19:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homeopathy and COPD 

message: I would like an admin to add an external link to the National Center for Homeopathy, the primary organization representing Homeopathy in the United States.  Their website is http://www.nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org
I do not believe that this warrants discussion because the organization is essential to Homeopathy, and an external link is an obvious addition.
Thanks. Strubin (talk) 04:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not essential to homeopathy - it's an American homeopathic organization. That said, why don't you just go ahead and add the link yourself? Antelan talk 06:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is currently fully protected...that's why. That said, I'm not convinced the link is necessary (which is why I haven't added it). Is the organization truly a standard-bearer for American homeopathy? Per WP:EL, does it "provide a unique resource" without serving as too promotional, and is there some overwhelming reason why this organization should be the only such one listed in the external links section? — Scientizzle 06:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Seeing as it has a store page and an advertising page it is at least a little promotional. Also a google search for "America homeopathy" brings up this,  as the first link. A search for "United States homeopathy" brings up this  as its first link, a site which lists several USA homeopathy organisations. I see no reason to place the National Center for Homeopathy above all of these other organisations. JamesStewart7 (talk) 08:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An even better question would be, why, if this organization is as important as Strubin claims it to be, has it not been added to the article until now?  I think thats a better question.  But regardless, its not really a necessary link.  Just my 1.84 cents (damn American dollar).  Baegis (talk) 08:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The rule prohibiting its inclusion is the following, from WP:PROT: "Pages protected due to content disputes should not be edited except to remove content which clearly violates content policies, such as obvious vandalism or copyright violations, to make changes unrelated to the dispute, or to make changes for which there is clear consensus on the discussion page." Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I hate to be ugly about this, but this isn't a good link, nor is it uncontroversial.  I get the feeling this is being proposed because strubin's wife is on the board of directors. Cheers, Skinwalker (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What a delightful oversight on strubin's part.  Hmm... Baegis (talk) 03:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Well there is only one Center for Disease Control and there are how many homeopathy organisations? If there was only one homeopathy organisation the link would be in there no question, but since there are several we are forced to evaluate whether or not the website is "the foremsot[sic] site for homeoatphy[sic]". JamesStewart7 (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  By the way, what is this doing here? This is clearly a violation of Wikipedia's policies. I placed the blpdispute tag on the article and now the original author is threatening to block me.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.104.203.106 (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding the National Center for Homeopathy 

message: I would remind everyone, especially Randy_Blackamoor, that personal attacks are not allowed on Wikipedia. Accusing other editors of having a "hostility to science" and "an anti-medicine, pro-homeopathy agenda" is not helpful in building a consensus on creating a balanced article on homeopathy.
Neutral point of view (NPOV) involves describing the different viewpoints in a controversial article, in order to create a balanced article THAT DOES NOT TAKE SIDES. It is not about deciding which view is "neutral" or "correct". That type of subjective bias has no place in an encyclopedia article. Arion 3x3 (talk) 00:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How many times have we had this discussion? Editors are not required to be "neutral" between what is true/verifiable and what is false. Articles are not required to pretend that false ideas (e.g., homeopathy) are true. It is not a violation of NPOV to write articles about pseudoscience from a scientific perspective. This is well-trodden ground on this talk page. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 00:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i respectfully disagree with yhte above user. it makes no sense sofr and article to take sides on whetehr or not homeopathy science is valid ro not. the main goal shoudl be to compile source information ragardless of the opinions of the peopel ont he talk page. instead of screaming at eacho ther can calling each other "anti-science zealots" or whatever we shodul instead focus on gettin g as many valid sources as we can so that we can create an well-written article that contains all the verifiable information we can find so that this article can be unrpotected and finally become stalbe enough to submit to copy-editing and Smith Jones (talk) 00:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: NOBODY CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TYPING. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 00:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Blackamoor, try not doing that kind of attack.  OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the appropriate way to deal with someone who refuses to write in legible English? The idea of collaboration becomes a farce when, in addition to all the users who are coming in with an agenda, the most prolific writer on the talk page is producing large chunks of totally incomprehensible pseudo-language, and then demanding that others figure out what he means so we can "collaborate" with him. I feel like I'm trapped in a Samuel Beckett play on this talk page. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 00:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i am NOT sying that pro-homeopathy points of view should be given the same weight as anit-homeopathy. the VAST MARJOITY of scientific sources of homeopathy are skeptical and this article should relfect that. the only thing i take offense to is that some user want the article to objectively stat ethe homeopathy is wrong or evil, which IS  a vioaltion of NPOV and possibly other rules of this encylcopedia. calling is a psuedoscience, is fine (AS LONG AS IT IS SOURCED, PREFERABLY MOLTIPLE TIMES) but any unsourced statements positive or negaitvie should be deleted. And Randy Blackamoor please stop it with the personal attakcs they are completely unhelpful and counterproductive. Smith Jones (talk) 00:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

text: i dont knwo about that, man. while i personaly believe that homeopathy is effectiv e in some cases, the majority of studies that i have seen so far sem to indicate that it does not always or consistently   work. i think it would be a good idea to post a list of htose peer-reviewed and relaible sources here so that the other peoeple on this talk page can have a hcance to see them and evaluate them tos ee if they match what wikipedias requirements are. Smith Jones Smith Jones (talk) 00:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are these elusive studies that prove that Homeopathy does work?  I have had my eye on this page for a good coupla months and haven't seen anyone put forth any reliable source that says homeopathy works any better than the standard placebo.  It would be best if you go back and read over OrangeMarlin's comment above.  It sums up all relevant polices for this article as clearly as possible.  Baegis (talk) 01:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creating a balanced article 

message: Efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal) in patients with acute maxillary sinusitis: a prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicenter clinical trial.
BACKGROUND: There is a demand for clinical trials that demonstrate homeopathic medications to be effective and safe in the treatment of acute maxillary sinusitis (AMS). OBJECTIVE: The objective of this clinical trial was to demonstrate the efficacy of a complex homeopathic medication (Sinfrontal) compared with placebo in patients with AMS confirmed by sinus radiography. DESIGN: A prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase III clinical trial was conducted for a treatment period of 22 days, followed by an eight-week posttreatment observational phase. SETTING: The clinical trial was conducted at six trial sites in the Ukraine. PARTICIPANTS: One hundred thirteen patients with radiography-confirmed AMS participated in the trial. INTERVENTIONS: Fifty-seven patients received Sinfrontal and 56 patients received placebo. Additionally, patients were allowed saline inhalations, paracetamol, and over-the-counter medications, but treatment with antibiotics or other treatment for sinusitis was not permitted. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Primary outcome criterion was change of the sinusitis severity score (SSS) from day zero to day seven. Other efficacy assessments included radiographic and clinical cure, improvement in health state, ability to work or to follow usual activities, and treatment outcome. RESULTS: From day zero to day seven, Sinfrontal caused a significant reduction in the SSS total score compared with placebo (5.8 +/- 2.3 [6.0] points vs 2.3 +/- 1.8 [2.0] points; P < .0001). On day 21, 39 (68.4%) patients on active medication had a complete remission of AMS symptoms compared with five (8.9%) placebo patients. All secondary outcome criteria displayed similar trends. Eight adverse events were reported that were assessed as being mild or moderate in intensity. No recurrence of AMS symptoms occurred by the end of the eight-week posttreatment observational phase. CONCLUSION: This complex homeopathic medication is safe and appears to be an effective treatment for acute maxillary sinusitis.
Anthon01 (talk) 14:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not reputable, not authoritative, and not important. Jefffire (talk) 19:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you talking about the journal. Please clarify. This is an RCT that suggest an effect from a homeopathic preparation. Anthon01 (talk) 19:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acute maxillary sinusitis 

message: Alright...direct from the paper itself, the authors descibed the presented findings of the six studies as 
The conditions studied are listed as:
*"Radiation reaction"
*"Chemotherapy Induced-Stomatitis"
*"Radiodermati-tis"
*"Chemotherapy-induced stomatitis"
*"Menopausal symptoms" (post-breast cancer treatment)
*"Estrogen withdrawal" symptoms (post-breast cancer treatment)
The authors concluded: 
This was summarized thusly in the abstract: 
Given the above information, I think this is an accurate and fair synopsis:
A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials evaluating homeopathic treatments to reduce side effects from cancer therapies such as radiotherapy and chemotherapy, including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials, found "encouraging but not convincing" evidence in support of homeopathic treatment; the meta-analysis authors concluded that variability in the methodological quality of the six studies provided "insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care." Any objections to adding this? — Scientizzle 19:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we shorted that? Jefffire (talk) 19:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah...I think the clause of "including three randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials" can be readily removed (it may be slightly misleading, too, as the studies had variable blinding, randomization & controls), plus a couple of other tweaks, producing this:A 2006 meta-analysis of six trials evaluating homeopathic treatments to reduce cancer therapy side effects following radiotherapy and chemotherapy found "encouraging but not convincing" evidence in support of homeopathic treatment, however variability in the methodological quality of the six studies provided "insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care." — Scientizzle 19:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good wording, but too long for the intro (it has become something of a bloated cow). Might it be a better idea to move it into the main text? Jefffire (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I never intended this for the lead, if that's what you're saying...this is merely to replace the slightly erronious main text explanation. — Scientizzle 20:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My error, just with everyone talking about the lead...:) Jefffire (talk) 20:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Paper quotes

message: The page is now unprotected; protection is only temporary and it has been more than a month in a protected state. I would hope that during the protection editors have engaged in constructive discussions on how to resolve their disputes. Any further disruption to this page may not result in further protection, but may result in editors losing temporarily their editing privileges. Let's hope that neither would be necessary. Happy editing! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you explain which parts of the lead are causing you problems, or what you think is missing? --88.172.132.94 (talk) 07:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nothing in the lead is causing me problems... But the lead is non-compliant: (a) It is too long; (b) It does not provide a concise summary of the article; (c) it is giving undue weight to the critical viewpoints. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed on length. The lead used to be shorter (and better than the present one, in my view). But I don't see how it's giving undue weight to criticism, given that the majority view (per WP:WEIGHT) is critical of homeopathy. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fix the length first, and then we can address the weight issue. This is an article about Homeopathy, not about the critical view of homeopathy. As an extreme analogy, take an article on God. The scientific view is that existence of God cannot be proved, yet, the article about God and its lead does not use 1/2 of its space to deny its existence. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The analogy doesn't strike me as particularly apt. Many (most?) of the proponents of homeopathy insist that the practice is scientifically valid. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then we say so in the article's text. NPOV writing is not that hard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: "Some say the earth is flat, others say it is round," eh? Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, no... A good summary of the excellent section "Homeopathy#Medical_and_scientific_analysis" would do the trick. I look forward to see a reduced version of the lead that summarizes the article's content in a neutral manner. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is where I think many editors get it wrong. Policy says briefly mention notable controversies.  The problem is we run the risk of turning off a potential reader if the lead is too heavily weighed towards criticism. Science is not the only view presented in WP. There are historical and cultural POV, that are at least as important as the scientific view. The majority of the scientific view is that there is insufficient evidence to support it and that no plausible mode of action has been found. In spite of that, homeopathy is still being studied by science as there exist 1) limited data on an effect and 2) researched methods are being perfected to determine whether any sufficient evidence will be uncovered. Anthon01 (talk) 18:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well-stated. Friarslantern (talk) 19:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he's misstated the majority scientific view. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Seconded, that's not the majority scientific view, which is that not only is there no evidence, but it is nearly certain that there will never be evidence and that the atomic theory of matter makes it impossible for homeopatic remedies to do anything, ever. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well if you read scientific articles on the subject instead of just the abstracts you might see it a little differently. Nearly certain doesn't equal never. Do you think we already know everything? Assuming I mistated the SPOV, it still doesn't deserve to take the largest part of the lead. Homeopathy isn't only about 'science' phenomenon. Anthon01 (talk) 20:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Homeopathy isn't only about science. Look at the body of the article. Lots of sections need to be represented in the lead. There is more to life and Homeopathy then just Psuedoscience. Jossi's talking about the lead. Anthon01 (talk) 20:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but the lead has to summarise all major views - to remove the mainstream scientific view would make it unbalanced. Haven't we had this argument several dozen times?° Adam Cuerden talk 22:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think were in agreement. I never suggested we remove the sci view from the lead. Only that it doesn't take more space than it is due. There is too much in the lead as it stands now or at least as it was before Jossi put up this section. Anthon01 (talk) 22:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Science is a fairly major view point, per the weighting guidelines, it should get a hefty amount of space. Jefffire (talk) 22:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Remember there is no proof. How many times and ways do you need to say that.;-) Seriously though, look at WP:LEAD. Anthon01 (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you understand the issue. The scientific view is extremely important, and so it has a prominent weighting. Jefffire (talk) 22:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps, we are saying the same thing. My less and your more may end up being about the same. Lets look at the new version and then we'll talk Anthon01 (talk) 23:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Homeopathy is scientific when it's advantageous for its practitioners to pose it as science, but it's a "social phenomenon" when it's advantageous not to be science. Hmmm, I wonder if Mitt Romney is a homeopath? Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we've got our wires crossed. What are you talking about? Anthon01 (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: And where do you consider homeopathy to be according to WP description? Anthon01 (talk) 20:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  homeopathy is a science. just becfause some people deny its efficacy doesnt mean that it isnt true. after all they are still some people who deny evolution and that doesnt make ita 'social phenomenon' Smith Jones (talk) 21:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Much better. Anthon01 (talk) 23:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Indeed. It is possible, after all. :) well done. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page unprotected and How to write a [[WP:LEAD|lead]]