Talk:O'Sullivan family

message: It says the main article is Sullivan, but the Sullivan page talks about the last name Sullivan, not O'Sullivan. Maybe they should be combined?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.39.34 (talk) 05:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sullivan 

message: According to Woulfe in Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall, Súilleabhán comes from súildubhán and I believe this to be the correct interpretation of the name. The double l would suggest to me a compensatory measure arising from the loss of the initial d in dubh. Another relevant example would be the surname Ó Ciardubháin which is pronouced as Ó Ciaruáin and anglicised as Kirwan. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 10:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  River God? 

message: Whoever came up with this clearly lacks even the most rudimentary knowledge of the Irish language and it is becoming rather tedious at this stage to see it being reinserted into the text. I imagine Gary Sullivan (whoever he is) has spotted "abháin" in the name and concocted the fantastic and utterly ridiculous theory this somehow is one and the same word as "abhainn". No explanation is given as to how the monosyllabic "abhainn" suddenly sprouted a second syllable replete with long stressed vowel.ːɪ Even allowing for a disyllabic Middle Irish version, how on earth did the unstressed short vowel in the second syllable metamorphose into a long stressed one? Pray do explain. This nonsense must stop!An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 14:28, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I was worried this might have become popular among some O'Sullivans so I didn't remove it, although clearly nonsense. On an unrelated matter I see you have gone about with the fada or whatever they call it for every case of Donal, but that is also nonsense because it is an anglicisation of Domhnall, which does not actually have one. But the -mh- going silent would appear to have lengthened the vowel somewhat, or made it a diphthong, and so we do occasionally see the incorrect Dómhnall. This is, however, an English language article. DinDraithou (talk) 17:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Dónal is not an anglicisation of Domhnall! And the o in Dónal absolutely must have a síneadh fada (acute accent). The name is a modern spelling of Domhnall which has been in use since about the 1940s when a wholesale reform of Irish spelling took place culminating in Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge - An Caighdeán Oifigiúil in 1958, being the new standardised and simplied spelling system universally employed today. The -mh- in Domhnall would indeed have been lost resulting in the subsequent lengthening of the previous short vowel, a process which was extremely common in Irish in the early modern period. Domhnall would therefore originally have been /dovnəl/. As for an anglicisation of Domhnall, we have Donald. Other examples of names simplified since the spelling were introduced are Sighle > Síle, Caoimhghin > Caoimhín, Seaghán > Seán. 137.191.234.98 (talk) 09:14, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Apologies, previous comment is from myself. Forgot to log in!An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 09:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected and apologize myself. I've never even been to Ireland and I have a greater knowledge of Old Irish (very little) than of today's Irish. I was going by the pedigrees I frequently refer to, like the ones printed by O'Hart. In them it is always without the fada and so I assumed it was an anglicization, not having the knowledge that Domhnall was probably no longer used then except in history books. Back to the O'Sullivans this article needs a lot of work and so does the famous Donal Cam O'Sullivan Beare's. He victoriously slew a kinsman of mine and I want it in there! This was the elder brother of Donal II O'Donovan, namely Dermot. If you want to try to work on it, have a look at O'Donovan to see how I'm doing ours. Also I have mentioned the O'Sullivans as the chief princes under the MacCarthys at Eóganachta but that article is also in bad condition, and wrong about a number of things. (First I wrote most of it before I knew all that much, and then someone came along and made it worse.) What is fascinating to me is how the family came to occupy its prominent position when it was not descended from a (known) king of Cashel later than the 7th century I believe, for which see Eóganacht Chaisil. I could be wrong about that. Anyway I have been writing MacCarthy Reagh too, because they were our princes in Carbery. In fact our position there was similar to that of the O'Sullivans in the Kingdom of Desmond, the article for which has a stupid narrative and says very little, with only the contents of its infobox to recommend it. DinDraithou (talk) 05:06, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Some people still do use Domhnall as a Christian name here as well as another form Dónall although Dónal is nowadays much more common. To be honest, I think all of the articles on Irish surnames need to rewritten as they have clearly been written by people who have next to no knowledge of the Irish language, who have taken their information in many cases from texts by writers who themselves in all probability cannot speak a single word of Irish, hence all the dodgy spellings on Wikipedia. To be honest, I run a mile whenever I see any text containing the words "the Irish nation". The link you provided to O'Hart contains a strange mix and Irish and English spellings the authenticity of many of which is doubtful. Here a handful of examples from the same link: "Giolla na-Bhflainn" which should read "Giolla na bhFlann", i.e. the f is a capital as the bh is merely eclipsis on the initial f. "Dermod-an-Phudar" is almost certainly "Diarmaid an Phúdair" or "Diarmuid an Phúdair". "Dunbuidhe" should be "Dún Buidhe". "Dermod Balbh" should be "Diarmuid Balbh" or "Diarmaid Balbh" and then there is "Donal Crone" which is obviously "Dónal Crón". I find it strange that O'Hart writes "Donall [sic] Mór O'Sullivan". Why the mix of Irish and English? "Dónal Mór Ó Súilleabháin" would be better I think and the form he himself would have used in his own lifetime. I think in general that English corruptions of personal names should be excluded unless evidence as to these forms being used by the individuals in question can be provided.An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 15:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Might I suggest that the Sullivan article be merged into this and a link established? Sullivan is nothing more than O'Sullivan with the O' chopped off.An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That is exactly what I would do... in another article. It's been done for a few others. The problem is space and focus. The article should properly be about the descent and history of the family in Ireland, with another page or two created for the lists. The trouble is that everyone has an article at Wikipedia now and most are hardly significant. With O'Donovan I compromised and have simply included some people of excellence at the bottom, leaving out the insignificant. In the case of the O'Sullivans you have a larger dynasty to deal with the history of and so I would include no list at all, simply linking to it. Call it Notable O'Sullivans or something. DinDraithou (talk) 02:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Actually I have some undergraduate background in linguistics and philology, just not in Irish. What are your academic credentials? I'm glad you've written the book, though. You should expand this article and focus on the history. DinDraithou (talk) 00:51, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: To Gary Sullivan: I am a translator of legal documents by profession, from English into Irish and vice versa. I have worked as a translator for the past eleven years, nine years in my current employment, and two as a freelancer. My primary degree is in Irish and French and I hold an MA in Modern Irish. I'm also greatly interested in Irish dialectology and in the phonology, morphology and syntax of the language in general. And now you might be so kind as to inform us of your own qualifications and knowledge of the Irish language, both in its modern forms and its historical development. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 13:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: While I'm here, it would be as well to mention that the standard texts on Irish surnames are Woulfe's Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall and Edward MacLysaght's The Surnames of Ireland. Unfortunately, there is some pretty dubious information floating around the internet about Irish "clans" descending form "royal Milesian blood" and other nonsense. Some of the claims made on the following site go beyond the surreal: http://www.osullivanclan.com/clanregistry.html There is even an "O'Sullivan song" (in English, of course), an O'Sullivan "clan tartan" (clan tartans are largely an 18th century Scottish invention) and an O'Sullivan "battle flag" under which is stated "The basic symbol of the O’Sullivan battle flag, the gold circle, represents the ordered energy of the Infinite Universe. This annular emblem is called An Fainne Naomh (The Holy Ring).". No evidence is supplied as to the historical authenticity of any of this. And "An Fáinne Naomh" should of course read "An Fáinne Naofa". Whatismore, the motto of Ó Súilleabháin "An Lámh Fhoisteanach Abú" is misspelt "Lamh Foistenach Abu". An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 14:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You did not answer the question I asked you Gary. What are your own qualifications and knowledge of the phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics of the Irish language in its modern forms and its development during the Old Irish era down to Late Modern period? Please respond. 
Please supply verifiable historical evidence of a traditional Gaelic clan structure centred around individuals whose surname happens to be Ó Súilleabháin existing into present time among the indigenous inhabitants of of Béarra, Uíbh Ráthach and Dún Ciaráin.
So Gary, you admit that there is no historical authenticity for the battle flag, the tartan or the song and that the website makes no claim of such. Well if that is the case, why on earth were they put on the website in the first place? Furthermore, the website does not inform the reader that the flag, the song, etc. are not based on historically authentic and verifiable sources, which it is surely the duty of the authors to do so. Do you not think it is disingenuous in the extreme to mislead individuals who stumble on the website believing that there actually is a real life “O’Sullivan tartan” when in fact it was fabricated out of thin air by some American? “Flags, tartans, and songs are time honoured devices with which identity and unity are promoted”. Where would that be then Gary? Here in the real world or on the set of Braveheart?
As for animus, yes, Gary I am rather cheesed off at the idea of someone suggesting that I should wear a tartan kilt and sing some twee song in the Queen’s English. I don't wear skirts and I don't speak the Queen's English.
What is more, I see the following under “O’Sullivan Tartan” in the aforementioned website (http://www.osullivanclan.com/theosullivantartan.html)
 
In June, 1994, Gary Brian O’Sullivan [121G] commissioned the O’Sullivan MacCragh tartan to be designed by Chris Aitken of Geoffrey (Tailor) High-land Crafts Ltd.
Presumably, Gary Brian O’Sullivan is one and the same as Gary Sullivan. Now, why on earth would someone even think of inventing a tartan for an Irish surname? Clan tartans specifically relating to Scottish Highland clans were invented in the 19th century. There were never any native Irish tartans specifically relating to certain families. This country is Ireland. Not Scotland. I think Gary Sullivan needs to buy himself a good atlas. 
Tartans originated in Ireland, and were later introduced to Scotland by the Irish Celts. The earliest tartans were a type of shirt that ended just above the knee, known as the léine in Irish Gaelic. It was made of linen, and dyed a dark yellow shade, which led the English to describe it as “a saffron shirt”. In later times, stripes of various colors were incorporated into the léine to indicate the rank of the wearer.
I think poor Gary is confusing tartans with kilts. He can buy a good dictionary while he’s in buying that atlas. There is no evidence whatsoever of the native Irish wearing “clan tartans” and one asks oneself what on earth is the point of fabricating one out of thin air?
The same site also claims the “Blackthorn Rose” as the “clan flower”. No evidence as to the historical authenticity of this is provided. Besides, the blackthorn is a species of prunus not rosaceae and is therefore not a “rose” at all.
The site also claims the existence of an “O’Sullivan Planxty” and says of the word “planxty”:
It is also believed that its origin may stem from the Irish phrase "phlean on ti" meaning "from the house of".
Believed by whom? Phlean? Such a word does not exist in the Irish language. We have plean meaning plan. “On”? Is this “ón” preposition ó + definite article, or “’on”, a contraction of “dhon” from “don”, preposition do + definite article? “Ti” one presumes is in fact “tí” genitive of “teach”, but one is still at a total loss as to what this sentence could possibly mean.
So Gary, are you claiming that all people who by accident of birth bear the surname Ó Súilleabháin and the Anglicised O’Sullivan and Sullivan are all related genetically to some ancient Milesian bloodline and that this is a provable scientific hypothesis? 
An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 19:23, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

text: I do not hate any individual, Gary, what I disdain is the sort of plastic paddyness on display here and at http://www.osullivanclan.com/. I honestly and sincerely hope for the sake of your own academic credibility as much as for anyone reading the material on that website and seeking to get an historically authentic viewpoint of the Súilleabhánaigh that you do not really believe that ua means house of, súill means sun in its ancient form or that abhán is in fact abhainn. I think it is very sad that you would not stick around here and debate the issue. I would implore you to learn the Irish language and to avail yourself of Niall Ó Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge agus Béarla, Patrick Dinneen's Foclóir Gaedhilge agus Béarla and DIL, an online link to which is here: www.dil.ie. Thank you for a stimulating debate and good luck. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 21:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Right, Gary. I'll ask one more time. Perhaps you might grace us with an answer this time: what are your qualifications, knowledge, experience etc. of Irish phonology? Go on, Gary, fill us in. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 11:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Gary for finally admitting to us that you have no qualifications in the Irish language. You claim to have spoken to an "Irish expert", you mean someone holding an academic qualification in the Irish language from a recognised institution and who is a fluent Irish speaker? Who is this person? As for my giving you my email address, sorry Gary, I don't hand out personal contact details on the internet. So now, the floor is yours, Gary. Please answer the questions I have already posed several times: how does a historically short unstressed syllable in abhainn become lengthened and under what process? If this did indeed happen, when did it happen? From where do you draw your claim that súil (please note spelling) means sun? And that ua means house of? Do you have sources for these? I've gone through Ó Dónaill, Dinneen and DIL and cannot find anything to back up those claims. What is your explanation for the double l in "súill"? Are you familiar with Wikipedia's policy on original research?
As for me being a "difficult person", two words come to mind, Gary; "Pot" and "kettle". You see, Gary, it is very difficult to take you seriously when you are on here and elsewhere on the web claiming that your are the great "Taoiseach of the O'Sullivan Clan" and that the Súilleabhánaigh have a "clan tartan", "a clan song", "a clan flower", a "clan planxty" etc. knowing as you do that all of this is utter fakery. It is even more difficult to take seriously an individual who admits to having not a word of Irish in his head and yet continues to demand that his half-baked theory of the name's origin be inserted into the article. I laughed myself silly at the following: You are incensed by people like me who are trying to preserve a cultural identity that you feel strongly never existed. You have been convinced by an English dominated educational orthodoxy that the Milesian tradition is a provincial collection of lies and a never ending source of embarrassment to a thoroughly modern and sophisticated Irishman. This coming from a non-Irish speaking American. I rest my case. 
So as I said, the floor is now yours, Gary. How does a historically short unstressed syllable turn into a long one and how so, Gary? Away you go. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 10:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: River God claim revisited

message: O'Sullivans, I'm not going to write your article for you, but I will help you with sources when I can. Here is a very nice one, beginning on p. 121. The article is old, but Butler was a master scholar and is still cited today. Read it through carefully and you will gain a clear understanding of your high position in Desmond. DinDraithou (talk) 21:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is another. Begin on p. 115 or 120. DinDraithou (talk) 23:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Chapters towards a History of Ireland in the reign of Elizabeth, by Philip O'Sullivan Beare, edited and translated into English by Matthew J. Byrne. DinDraithou (talk) 21:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that. Fair play. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 21:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Military Services and Public Life of Major General John Sullivan. DinDraithou (talk) 23:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Finally here he is himself in the Rawlinson B 502 pedigrees:
According to Diarmaid Ó Murchadha, in his masterful Family Names of County Cork (2nd edition, 1996. p. 300), the rare name occurs only twice in the sources, once in your case and once among the Laigin. Your Súildubán lived in the 10th century and is eighth in descent from Fíngen mac Áedo Duib. For a nice scholarly account Ó Murchadha is an excellent read and you have 13 pages + an ancient map of the Siege of Dunboy in his volume. There are a limited number of copies available for sale from used book sellers online, the title being out of print, so please keep other families in mind and only purchase if you must. There are surely a number available in libraries. DinDraithou (talk) 22:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My pleasure! DinDraithou (talk) 01:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Súildubán

message: There is also in existence the extremely rare surname MacSullivan. I remember seeing at least one MacSullivan in the 01 (Dublin and environs) phonebook a number of years ago. MacLysaght makes no mention of it, and I don't have Woulfe here at home with me. Anyone know anything about this? Might be useful to add to the article. A quick Google search reveals a few individuals with the surname MacSullivan or McSullivan. Apart from the individual in the phonebook, I've never met anyone in Ireland called MacSullivan or Mac Súilleabháin or heard of anyone called MacSullivan. The names seems to be largely extinct in Ireland. Here for example is a death notice from The Irish Times: http://notices.irishtimes.com/2386628. As an aside, I've seen the name O'Stein in film credits and wondered where it comes from. MacLysaght makes no mention of it. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 10:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  MacSullivan 

message: In Gary Sullivan's book The Oak and Serpent (http://books.google.ie/books?id=CIDWbb-yOQ0C&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=s%C3%BAildubh%C3%A1n&source=bl&ots=V-CzZ0tjTp&sig=xw3jtJbMA3v42pukoomKgDcMf-c&hl=ga&ei=oadlTIi6JpLn4AbF-MXYCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false), Gary Sullivan makes the following comment in relation to the origin of the name Eoghan, eugenics being the study of genetic improvement, especially of human improvement by genetic control (page 148). Gary, if you are reading this, perhaps you would like to explain what exactly you mean by eugenics being the study of human improvement by genetic control. How exactly does eugenics improve humanity, Gary? An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Gary, can we therefore take it that you believe that eugenics involves the genetic improvement of humanity? An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 09:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I ask the question in all seriousness, Gary, as I believe that no further dicussion of your etymological theories can be made without some clarification on this point. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 09:03, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eugenics 

message: I read with interest the following extract: One area which caused the writer particular concern was that of spurious 'Clans' and bogus 'Chiefs'. In the first place, as Edward MacLysaght and other authorities were at pains to point out, Ireland never had a clan system like that of Scotland, and MacLysaght advised that the term 'sept' is more appropriate in the Irish context. (1) In the second place, the thorough destruction by the English of Gaelic political structures in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, allied with the loss of so many Irish records over the centuries, mean that only a handful of families can truly trace their lineages back to a duly inaugurated Chief. Nevertheless, Government and tourism interests required that Irish 'Clan' organisations should be brought into being, and that new 'Chiefs' should be found. Thus although it regularly pleaded lack of resources adequate to perform basic genealogical tasks, in 1989 the State's Genealogical Office/Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland found space in its new premises in Kildare Street, Dublin, for the organisation known as the 'Clans of Ireland'. It would be fair to say that most Irish genealogists acquiesced in the face of this tourism-driven 'clansterism', or indeed actively supported it. (2) For his pains in opposing the march of pseudo-genealogy and pseudo-heraldry and attempting to assert some kind of standards, the writer found himself isolated from most of his professional colleagues and effectively barred from contract work in the Genealogical Office from 1993. Sound familiar to anyone? Ireland never had a clan system like that of Scotland, and certainly no fake tartans either! http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/maccarthy.htm An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 17:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phoney "clans" 

message: I really don't have time to be keeping an eye on this article but an American called Gary Sullivan (sometimes calls himself Gary O'Sullivan) "Taoiseach" of the "O'Sullivan Clan" [sic] has been coming on here and inserting nonsense about Ó Súilleabháin coming from abhainn. I've already explained to Gary at length why this is simply not possible. Gary Sullivan appears to have next to no knowledge of the Irish language and will not accept anything other than his own ill-informed theories on the name's origins using nothing more scientific than simply opening a dictionary and looking for words which look superficially similar to "-eabháin". It's 
depressing. I've removed Gary Sullivan's text but don't know how to remove the book reference at the bottom of the page. I am an Irish language translator and linguist working with and through the Irish language. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 10:01, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gary Sullivan