Talk:Jewish culture

message: To help shrink this article, I have moved off secular music and dance to their own page. It was also very confusing the way Jewish Music would send users here for secular music.  I also added headlines for each of the types of music, "Klezmer", "Sephardic", "Israeli Folk," etc....  I also added a leadin for the Jewish Humor within this article.
Epson291 09:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Music and Dance

message: Is it not true that non-religious Jews are more likely to circumcise their sons than the statistical norm of most societies?  Can someone come up with a reference?  Why does this community shy away from dealing with the connection between Jewish culture and circumcision?  Is there some kind of shame associated with it?  What does this shame tell you?  Sirkumsize 02:36, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you asking so many leading questions?  Jayjg (talk) 14:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

text: But to address your question despite your tone: probably non-religious Jews are more likely to circumcise their sons than the statistical norm of most societies. Just like they are less likely to eat pork. And just like secular people of Christian background are likely to celebrate Christmas and unlikely to feast on Passover. These are all customs of religious origin that tend to slide over into secular cultures of people of those backgrounds. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:55, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
Even the most secular, non-religous Jews will circumcise their sons.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.41.10 (talk) 00:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Circumcision reference

message: I'm spreading the word about this WikiProject, which is intended to be a forum for discussion on all aspects of Jewish culture / contribution to society (apart from the explicitly religious). Please feel free to join in and help out!  RMoloney (talk) 23:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish culture]] 

message: Can anyone help with this question? I can't find discussion of traits online. Observations such as "22% of Nobel Prize winners" (from the article) seem to imply differences, but what are they? I come from a Jewish family that has been Athiest for three generation and wouldn't have known I was Jewish if I hadn't been told. I don't even know the names of the Jewish holidays. Yet I suspect that I can sense a cultural affinity with other secular Jews.
I suspect there are traits to do with education, intellectualism, agumentativeness, money management (steriotypes may be there for a reason), consumerism. There must be others, and studies published. Can anyone point me in the right direction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rowaneisner (talk • contribs) 24 Dec 2005
: I'm not going to try to answer more than a little of this but:
:# secular Ashkenazi culture (which seems to have become the topic of this article) is a very separate matter from any Sephardi culture. I gather from that "Eisner" that you are probably from an Ashkenazaic background, as am I.
:# I've never seen any indication of Jews being more consumption-oriented than anyone else. There are individuals who are, but same in any other group. But conscious in terms of money on some other levels? Yes. No WASP-y taboo against bargaining, no taboo against discussing prices, salaries, things like that. 
:# Frankly, I find the pointing to Jewish Nobel prizewinners annoying. Yes, Jews tend to value education, and I'm sure that has been a big factor having so many Nobel prizewinners, but it kind of pisses me off when I watch it turn into some kind of implicit argument for ethnic superiority by perfectly average people try to associate themselves with some sort of claim of "racial genius" that somehow associates millions of with a relative handful of standouts.
:Jmabel | Talk 08:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree 100%. There is not a single example in the article of a cultural trait which is specifically Jewish and not related to Judaism. Everything claimed to be Jewish is actually borrowed from other cultures. Even Israel doesn't have any specifically Jewish culture (according to this article). I say delete the whole thing. Fourtildas (talk) 05:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My ("Gentile") take on it would mostly have to do with a value upon a good education, an ethnic link to the Jewish religion (where such "ethnic roots to a religion" are mainly a social construct and to a large degree an issue of labeling from outside), and a shared Jewish experience of living within an anti-Semitic environment throughout most of the diaspora period. Beyond that, yes, there are large, considerable differences between Ashkenazis, Sephards, and Old Jehuv who never left the Middle East. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 14:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  What are secular Jewish cultural traits? 

message: A lot of this is getting too focused on Ashekenazim and on the U.S. We need more on Sephardim and we need more on Europe. And more on Mizrahim (in the broad sense) and far more on Israel. This has not been deliberate omission, this has been a matter of some of us writing what we know.
We also need more on the emergence of secular Jewish culture in the era of emancipation, and more on the Hellenizing Jews of 2000 years ago. 
I suspect that a lot of what we are writing now will have to be radically reworked when more material is added. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  We need more on Sephardim and we need more on Europe 

message: Is it possible to clear up the muddled philosophy and sociology behind the term "secular Jewish culture"? Searching briefly on the web, I see the term only at irreligious organizations. That makes it hard to create an NPOV definition without expressing an original perspective. The top Google hits are organizations focusing on "Jewish Secular Humanism" , "Secular Judaism" , and "Cultural Judaism" . The next one  may be more accepting of religious belief, I don't know.
Our premise is that Jewish culture is hardly limited to religious study and practice. We need articles that discuss the phenomenon of Jewish culture broadly. However, I'm not sure that it's NPOV, or encyclopedic, or even helpful, to start the discussion by circumscribing "secular Jewish culture" as such. Can anyone provide scholarly sources for the idea? Isn't there scholarly consensus, or at least discussion, on how to approach the body of Jewish-flavored cultural works?
Why not revise the scope a bit, perhaps as a series of articles on "Jewish themes in art", "- literature", etc. (not limited to religious themes)?
--Hoziron 14:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition and scope, or lack thereof 

message: NEW: On Wikiversity there is now a "Jewish Studies School." Will it become a "duplication" of many things on Wikipedia? What should it's goals and functions be? Please add your learned views.  Thank you. IZAK 09:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish WIKIVERSITY 

message: Perhaps it is important to note that Jews have not interbred with their host countries, thus preserving a large part of their original Semitic ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smnioffe (talk • contribs) 11 December 2006 (UTC)
problem is 99.999% of jews are mixed with wherever they migrated to  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.1.253 (talk) 08:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "original ethnicity" of Jews is not Semitic, it's Hebrew. Semitic is a language family. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 15:07, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish Ethnicity

message: any reason ginsberg isn't included?
his two most famous poems (howl & kaddish) both include allusions to his judaism.
thanks, 70.49.58.177 22:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Allen Ginsberg

message: A couple of wikipedia pages link to Yiddishism and to Yiddish culture. Do people feel these should have pages? If so, does anyone feel like starting them? BobFromBrockley 10:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel that all three of these would overlap considerably.  I'd say more expansion is needed here, and on Yiddishkeit -Lazer Stein (talk) 11:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yiddish culture 

message: Jewish geography, the social game, needs incoming links -- and this article seemed appropriate, but I couldn't find a place for it. Most of the existing sections were too specific. --Dhartung | Talk 04:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphan alert 

message: I was shocked to find paragraph after paragraph after paragraph on dance, song, theatre of this kind and the other kind, movies, and all manner of popular culture . . . with science and the not-even-mentioned mathematics given one whole tiny paragraph.
This profoundly misrepresents the distribution of professions among secular Jews.Daqu 09:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Popular culture vastly disproportionately represented over, say, science

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:West Side Story Poster.gif

message: While there are many Jews represented in science so are all major religions and a lot of minor religions. There is nothing uniquely Jewish about science. Even Einstein was a German. 
Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Giwer (talk • contribs) 22:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Science is inappropriate 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with File:Book cover by El Lissitzky c1918.jpg

message: I've just removed this addition:
:American Jews have often adopted take-out Chinese food as a sort of second Jewish cuisine. This has occured thanks to the large overlap of Jewish and Chinese immigrants in New York City during the last century, where only restaurants run by non-Christians (i.e. Asians) would be open on Sundays and Christian holidays... and "in many dishes pork and shrimp are minced to the point of plausible deniability". It is now fairly common to see vegetarian-Kosher Chinese restaurants in Chinatowns. Many Jewish families have established a tradition of going out for Chinese food and then to a movie on Christmas, when there is little else available to do. This has become an established point of humor in Jewish culture, with Christmas-Eve comedy shows in recent years even billing themselves as "Kung Pao Kosher Comedy" and "The Mu-Shu Jew Show".
It sounds fun, but the sources are journalistic rather than academic. (I've hyperlinked them.) The main points are not sourced -- e.g. first sentence, "many Jewish families", many kosher restaurants in Chinatowns.  Maybe I'm being too punctilious.  What do other editors think? (Including, but not limited to, the one who wrote this.) BrainyBabe (talk) 07:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese food 

message: Isaac Babel was a Soviet writer, the word "Russian" isn't precise.Xx236 (talk) 13:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, "Soviet" isn't too precise, either.  He was a Soviet-era writer (and not necessarily sympathetic to the movement), but was born in the Ukraine pre-revolution.  Russian writer usually implies language used.  -  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lazer Stein (talk • contribs) 19:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isaac Babel 

message: Please note the discussion arising at Talk:Judaism#Religious. Thank you. Maysara (talk) 11:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  discussion on Judaism and the secular Jewish identity 

message: can come over to Jacob Epstein and help us resolve what is escalating into a very contentious discussion about whether or not Epstein should be classified as a Category:Jewish sculptors, Category:Jewish artists, and more.  Thanks Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 21:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am hoping one or more editors 

message: Why is there an indiscriminate list of film composers with Jewish background under this section with no mention of what their connection to Jewish culture is? All these people are from various backgrounds with different connections to Judaism and the culture around it. Seems like a lot of WP:SYNTH going on there. Bulldog123 16:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish film composers under "FIlm"

message: It's a long section, and it can only get longer (for example, I'm sure the book Making Americans: Jews and the Broadway Musical, which isn't used in the article although a review of it is, would be super useful for providing more information). A separate article would allow for better structure on the history and development of the musical, explicit Judaism in the musical (Fiddler, Parade, the other things mentioned), possibly even pop-cultural references to the influence of Jews on Broadway ("You Won't Succeed" from Spamalot).
My question would be, though, would straight (ie. non-musical) theatre also be split into that article? Right now it's not a very big part of the section, but with expansion from good sources, perhaps it could be. However, my inclination is to create an article just on Jews and musicals, and leave the straight theatre content here.
-- Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about Secular Jewish culture not "Pop-culture references to Jews in theatre." The latter is not an encyclopedic article per WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. I wouldn't oppose just taking the entire section out and making an article or merging the article - if it gets too long - into Yiddish theatre or Jewish theatre though. Bulldog123 02:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you kidding? The article has paragraphs and paragraphs on how Jews were instrumental to the development of American musical theatre. I'm saying I think that deserves a separate article. The Spamalot joke would not be an integral part of that article. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

text: ...which, to finish my thought, is not at all the same thing as Yiddish theatre, and "Jewish theatre" is both a dab page and also not the same thing. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it would be helpful to start a new article about Jewish influence on American English-language theatre.  Then the section here could be shortened to hit the highlights.  Yes, I do think the new article should include both plays and musicals.  I wonder if there is a similar article somewhere about Jewish influence in American film/radio/TV.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think the article would be called? "Jews and Broadway" is a short snappy title, "Jews and American theatre" less so but still concise, but with radio/film/TV..."Jews and American performing arts"? Eep. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

text: A little too snappy, I think.  I would go with Jews and American theatre and have a separate article for Jews and American film, TV and radio.  I am sure that each of these articles would be plenty involved without trying to combine them.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:16, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal: splitting "American English-language theatre" section into separate article 

message: Thinking about adding a section on him.  He claims, in his book The Sacred Canopy, that Judaism was prone to develop secularism because it places so much emphasis on history, rather than just faith, etc.  Is this relevant? - Lazer Stein (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Peter L. Berger]]

message: Jewish culture is a redirect to here. Almost no articles link to here with the word secular. Either this article should be moved to Jewish culture, or we need to disambiguate that term and to a lot of redirect fixing. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 20:32, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jewish culture]] redirect to here 

message: Regarding the move mentioned above: with other ethnicities, say, Hungarian or Iranian, there are no naming mistakes to be made, because one can use the distinct terms "Christian" and "Muslim" to use when referring to religion. On the other hand, a believer in Judaism is generally called a Jew, just as someone of Jewish ancestry. So, we have things like the title of this article being "Jewish culture" and only the introduction informing us that it's secular - seems like the article should at least renamed to include "Secular", or ideally split.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.107.7.218 (talk) 04:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this article should be called secular Jewish cultureDalai lama ding dong (talk) 12:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secular (Jewish) culture 

message: Judaism is variously described and defined as the history, religion, culture, of the Jewish people.  Note that religion is only a part of that definition.  Judaism and religion are not identical..  Non religious Jews are not distanced from Judaism, they are only distanced from religion. To suggest otherwise is a clear POV. Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 17:58, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I would recommend "the Jewish religion" rather than "religious Judaism", which sounds like a machine translation from another language. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

text: Do you have any sources for your claim that Judaism isn't a religion? Jayjg (talk) 19:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: you need to provide sources if you want to claim that Judaism is nothing except a religion, I.e. you need sources to show that Jewish culture and history are not part of Judaism.  I am happy to adopt the wording Jewish religion.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 21:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Dalai lama ding dong, please consider reverting yourself until this discussion is completed. I don't want this to become an edit war. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: too late, as you will see, the discussion has moved onDalai lama ding dong (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judaism Religious Judaism 

message: I came to this article seeking to learn about Jewish culture, but it seems almost entirely concerned with secular Jewish culture. Maybe it should be merged into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism and a new entry on the original topic created.
I'm not a subject expert so I don't think I can contribute to editing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:B000:204:2:0:0:45:97 (talk) 01:09, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this be about "Jewish Secularism" rather than Jewish culture 

message: Should these guys really be crammed into a single sentence at the end of the "science" category?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.254.116.222 (talk) 02:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karl Marx et al. 

message: What about Kubrick and Polanski? They are two world-famous Jewish directors, at least one of which has made a Holocaust film (The Pianist, and then arguably the most Kafkaesque aspects of The Tenant, next to its Thomas Mann-like themes, hark back to the shared Jewish experience of both Kafka and Polanski in a predominantly anti-Semitic environment). Kubrick always wanted to make a Holocaust film, but in the end was scotched by Spielberg, but there are scholars such as Geoffrey Cocks who claim The Shining (see the film's article) is the one where he got closest to it and even his own collaborators, when later confronted with the hypothesis, agreed that it was likely that he purposefully put allusions to the Holocaust and his personal interpretations of it into the film. What about the Coen Brothers? They also often prominently feature Jewish characters in their films. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, if you list Wittgenstein under Jewish philosophers even though his mother wasn't Jewish, then what about Theodor W. Adorno (only a Jewish father, just like Wittgenstein), Hannah Arendt (both parents Jewish), Max Horkheimer (both parents Jewish), Walter Benjamin (both parents Jewish), Herbert Marcuse (both parents Jewish), and Ernst Cassirer (both parents Jewish, they even were cousins)? All of these either self-defined as Jewish, or at the very least were targeted by anti-Semites due to their ethnic descend, and most of them wrote extensively on anti-Semitism. Nor does any of them hold lesser merit in the halls of philosophy as does Wittgenstein. --80.187.106.89 (talk) 15:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add more information that seems legitimate to you. Infantom (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish directors 

message: Are there historical reasons to explain it just as there are to explain the disproportionate Jewish involvement in finance or in the clothing trade? Were there bans on other areas which made theatre and cinema more attractive to them? (I assume that Jewish influence in cinema was a follow on from their influence in theatre - is that a correct assumption?). Thanks. 80.111.140.140 (talk) 21:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There's lots of serious and popular writing on this topic: one very noteworthy book on the topic is Neal Gabler's prize-winning book An Empire of Their Own: How the Jews Invented Hollywood.  --Arxiloxos (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  *Why* was/is Jewish influence in Theatre/Cinema so huge?

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message: ...by an editor who seems to do a lot of that on Jewish-topic articles. For the record. Johnbod (talk) 16:19, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rather drastic cuts 

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message: Does anyone have a good argument against removing this link? I would strongly contest the suggestion that Jewish culture began 300-odd years after the Talmud was written, for instance. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stealth link to [[Return to Zion]] in the lede 

message: In the last paragraph of the "History" section (at least, in the "18:25, 11 January 2022‎" version of the article, ... which is the "current revision"), the second-to-last hyperlink is a 'red' link.]
There is some evidence (see, e.g., the SRP ["search results page"] 
* https://www.google.com/search?q=the+Congress+of+Secular+Jewish+Organizations 
e.g.) that the "translation" of the acronym "CSJO" into the name "Congress of Secular Jewish Organizations" might have come from a source at https://www.idealist.org/en/nonprofit/a4f7d51183414a009aff0cb8ad2e74ac-congress-of-secular-jewish-organizations-east-setauket on the web site of "idealist.org" ("see also" https://www.idealist.org/en/about for more info about "idealist dot org" itself.) 
However, according to the web site of the "CSJO" itself, (which has a URL of http://www.csjo.org/ ... both according to the above-mentioned SRP, AND according to the way it is "linked to", from the above mentioned "source" on the "idealist dot org" web site) ... it appears that CSJO actually stands for something else ("Cultural and Secular Jewish Organization"). 
Note that the word "Organization" is not plural in the version from the CSJO's own web site. It appears that the "translation" seen in the red link may have come primarily -- (maybe only?) -- from the "idealist dot org" web site. 
IMHO, that paragraph (the one containing that red link) should be updated. Any comments? --Mike Schwartz (talk) 22:24, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think if an organization is not notable enough to have its own article, putting it in the same line as the SHJ and the Arbeter Ring is uncalled for. That said, as well, there's a lot of weirdness in that section vis-a-vis explaining that it relates to secular culture in particular when that's not the ostensible purpose of the article - am I remembering correctly that this article used to be titled "secular Jewish culture"? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does "CSJO" stand for? ([[red-link|red]] [[Wikipedia:Red link|link]]...)  

message: I mean obviously in Judaism, there are lots of things that are in the class of orthopraxy, but this really excludes the faith part in Judaism, once faith is defined in Wikipedia as a confidence or trust in a thing, person or concept and some classical orthodox jews thinkers like Maimonides write about the principles of faith in Judaism, that includes the belief in God, the coming of the Messiah and revelation, mainly in prevalen in Orthodox Judaism today. Besides that the use of Judaism without specify if it's talking about Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstrucionist or Humanist doesn't generalize the assumption that all jewish denominations acts by the same principles, what is wrong, once Orthodox Judaism calls for conversion if the mother of one isn't jewish while others denominations don't, that way ignoring the ethnic definitions of "Who is a jew ?". So what i'm trying to do in this exaustive and boring argumentation is to argue for the removal of the part that says that "Judaism is not a faith-based religion", once this part in my opinion isn't totally certain and must have more discussion, which includes more sources and references, to be accepted in the article.
Sorry, for stealing your time in a long and exaustive argumentation that maybe doesn't changes anything.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123Done2x (talk • contribs) 20:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Adepts of Judaism have faith (i.e. beliefs). But Judaism is not a purity-of-faith-based religion like Christianity and Islam, wherein slightest heterodoxy dooms one to hell. tgeorgescu (talk)  21:02, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Judaism is interpreted differently by different Jews. Some consider it merely cultural, others are not religious at all and still consider themselves Jewish. Its commonly referred to as an ethnoreligious cultural group. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Judaism a non faith-based religion ? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: List of Jewish chess players
אריה ענבר (talk) 20:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chess has been described as the "Jewish national game" 

message: It seems a little strange that a section on Zionism isn't in here? Or a mention of the extremist segments of Judaism. It should be added, but I am not the one to do it. 174.141.198.10 (talk) 11:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no mention of Zionism? 

message: Hello, I have  removed an unreferenced paragraph because of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. 2601:204:F100:83B0:E1C4:4964:FC7F:5162 (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The material wasn't specifically cited, but was accurate and not controversial. You seem to be going through articles related to Jews and deleting unreferenced material "on principle", even when it is accurate and not controversial. Perhaps tagging would be more helpful.  The point of an encyclopedia is to provide accurate information, so even more helpful would be finding sources that support the provided information (or if it is inaccurate, fixing the statements with sources that say something different). Jayjg (talk) 15:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed unreferenced paragraph in History section