Talk:Gaelic Traditionalism/Archive 1

message: The Gaelic Traditionalism has been tagged for cleanup, but no specifics were left, so I would like to invite those more familiar with Wikipedia coding to go through and see if they can find what tags and codes need to be overhauled. Bear in mind, this article was written by about half a dozen people initially, with several more contributing to it and editing it, so with such layering comes inevitable hiccups. Breandán 18:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at entries somewhat similar to GT on wikipedia. There needs to be a reference section and bibliography. I can tell that much of the 'history' section needs to be redacted and sourced or at least reorganized because much of it seems irrelevant at the moment unless you turned it into a section called the Historical roots of Gaelic Traditionalism or Gaelic nationalism or something. If a sentence or paragraph is being quoted or paraphrased, cite the source imediately afterward. Also, there are numerous open statements which can be construed as conjecture. Try to go through and explain what some of the neologisms are and italicize unusual terms the average user will not understand. Carefully look over Manual of Style and try to spend some time making the article adhere more closely to this standard. The impetus for this, is that readers need to be able to discern if the article is in fact based in fact, rather than something some anonymous cracktard posting from the library computer just made up. WeniWidiWiki 20:48, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I passed the word around to everyone who contributed to it initially, so it will be getting fixed as time goes on. Not a lot of us have a great deal of free-time to focus on article maintenence, so it may take a bit, but Iain is the one with all of the references and sources, so I will see if he can get those added in. Thanks for clarifying what needs to be done. Breandán 07:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: Other polytheistic Gaelic Traditionalists draw upon the indigenous lore in a more literal and expanded way. These see the Morrigan chosing who will die in battle, and how. They also see her as intricately involved in the death of children. The times of death for others is determined by the Cailleach. After death, the soul is seen to roam until it is found by the Fianna after a "Great Hunt". The "Great Hunt" with Fionn at the head, and his two dogs, Bran and Scheolaing [shkeolan] leading the way. When the hounds catch up with the wandering spirit the dogs adjudge the worthiness of the soul. If the hounds bark and bay then the soul is shown to have lived an honorable life. If the dogs are silent then the the soul has been adjudged to have lived a dishonorable life. The dishonorable soul is left to its own devices, to roam the world as slough sidhe. These are amongst the spirits about whom there is concern on certain nights and other times when evil is thought to pose a peril to the living. If the soul was honorable, then it is conducted by Fionn himself to "Tech Duinn", the "House of Donn". The House of Donn is the place where Honorable Gaels go after death. 
The journey to Teach Duinn is one that has the soul pass through the gate in the land itself to the watery world on the other side. While there are other islands in that watery realm, this the ultimate destination for the honorable is seen to have three basic areas. The "Voyage of Bran" tells of a dunn (dún in Irish) for the warriors who've died in battle, a dunn for others, and a separate dunn for Christians. This is a modern variation of the tale, and is based on the social structure of Gaelic culture (1st function, 2nd function, 3rd function).   
Reincarnation, when it happens, is seen to occur within family lines. There is textual evidence that supports rebirth into this world after fixed times, such as a little over 350 years. On the way back to this realm, memories of the prior life are seen to be washed away as the waters are again crossed. Those memories, flow up as the bubbles and nuts of wisdom in the wells, such as the Well of Segais Conla's Well. These waters are imbibed from the Cup of Nectan (Nuadh). The heartier the drinking the more wise the person is when they are reborn. In this physical world the bubbles manifest as the traditional wisdoms and customs of the ancestors.
Sources and Notes
The primary source for Gaelic traditions are the Gaelic cultures only. To say it another way, Gaelic culture is the only real primary source for Gaelic cultural materials. Gaelic traditions are Gaelic cultural materials. The sources selected are of the highest standard; each is academically peer reviewed and academically acclaimed, each is written by an academician held in the highest regard by other academicians, each author is not only respected amongst their peers but is also writting in their own fields of expertise. Lastly, each author holds their professorship at an esteemed and respected institution of higher learning.
These materials are presented for two reasons. Those reasons are to validate statements using reputable sources, and to present Gaelic traditions to those who do not have access to Gaelic speaking communities. Never are the materials used as a source for deriving from, contriving anew, or altering the Gaelic traditions. To be concise, the materials are presented to show what the primary source that is the culture says about itself.
The sources and notes are divided up into the sections. These divisions are designed to show the continuity of the topic through time, as well as to give academic analysis so as to deepen understanding of the topic. The divisions are:
Existing Customs and Lore  This is to show current existing customs, beliefs, and lore in Gaelic speaking communities there in the Motherlands. Relationships are built by doing.
Ancient Textual Reference To show the earliest possible recorded instances of the same ideals, persons, customs, etc. Faith is sustained through stability, continuity, and persistence.
Academic Analysis and Exploration To broaden understandings of the ancient expressions based on academic study and analysis. Power comes through understanding. 
Sources and Notes - Donn:
Existing Customs and Lore:
*  
Dr. OhOgain records how across Gaelic lands Donn is known by variations of the same name. Examples are Donn na Duimhche in Co. Clare, Donn Cuailgne in Co. Louth, Donn Dumhach and Donn Dumhaighe Co. Kerry. He further quotes from The Death Tale of Conaire where certain characters state, "Donn, king of the dead at the red tower of the dead." Firmly positing Donn as the Lord of the Dead. He also cites folk belief that an entrance in the hill Knockfierna in Co. Limerick is an entrance to the palace of Donn, known as Teach Duinn. Teach Duinn (pronounced 'chek dune'), as the place where Gaels go is a rather common belief, and is widely known in Gaelic speaking lands, as typified by it even being referenced in the popular movie The Secret of Roan Inish.  There are customs, such as offerings, that are enacted at each of the sites held to be associated with Teach Duinn. 
Ancient Textual Reference:
* 
At the coming of the Milesians to Ireland, Donn, referred to as Eber Donn, is blown off the mast of the ship. His body sank into the sea at Inbhear Scéine, Kenmare Bay in Co. Kerry. The text then states that the place he drown, known to this day as "Bull Rock", is Teach Duinn. 
The tale "Táin Bó Cúalnge" from the Book of Leinster, as well as other versions of the "Cattle Raid of Cooley", has Donn showing up as the Brown Bull. In this tale we see the nearly continuous dialectic between Donn (dark color) and Find (light color). In this tale the white bull is named Findbennach Aí.
Academic Analysis and Exploration (for a broadening of early understandings):
* 
: Dr. Lincoln writes how the sacrifice and renewal themes surrounding Donn in various tales, including the "Táin Bó Cúalnge", help posit him as the Lord of the Dead. This was of course made even more concrete in the quote from the "Death Tale of Conaire". Furthermore, his lordship over Teach Duinn, as well as his dialectic relationship with Finn in his many variations. All of this establishes Donn as the Dispater like personage in Gaelic lore. Thus, Donn and Finn or Find become rather like the Yama and Manu personages of Hindic lore. The later being on the opposite extreme of Indo-European expansion, but showing the motifs to be found in the lore.   
Sources & Notes - Finn:
Existing Customs and Lore:
* 
: With too many variants of the name to list (Finn, Fion, Fionn, Fin, etc.), the most ancient form of his name amongst Gaels is Find. His name is synonomous with illumination, discovery, and the quinetessential seer. Many derivatives have later Finns as an ancestor of the original Find, a Gaelic method for establishing avatars of the first. Amongst these are Fionn mac Cumhail, whose stories still abound in Gaelic tradition. The places where Finn is said to have visited, or to visit to this day, are still held in special regard.  
Ancient Textual Reference:
*  
: Opposite of Eber Donn is the person Amhairghin Glungheal. 
* 
* 
* 
: The tale "Táin Bó Cúalnge" has Donn showing up as the Brown Bull. In this tale we see the nearly continuous dialectic between Donn (dark color) and Find (light color). In this tale the white bull is named Findbennach.  
Sources & Notes - The Hounds of Finn:
Existing Customs and Lore:
* An Encyclopedia of Fairies - Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures, Kathrine Briggs, Pantheon Books, , pps 37, 38. 
: In this book Briggs references the folk beliefs about the two wondrous hounds of Finn, "Bran" and "Sceolan". She cites existing lore to demonstrate some of the minute diverences between the Irish and Scottish Gaelic ideals about them. Further existing tales are mostly Fenian in nature. Bran is of course black, and Sceolan is white or gray in color. Existing folk beliefs around Glennoe in Scottland, and Co. Louth show the survival of quite ancient beliefs. These include that the black dog alone is a harbinger of death, while the white dog alone is said to bring health back to the sick or dying. Another source for tales directly translated out of the Gaelic is Waifs and Strays of Celtic Tradition Series III - Folk and Hero Tales J. Macdougall, David Nutt Publisher, 1891.  They are also referenced in Gods and Fighting Men, by Lady Gregory, 1094 - the list goes on and on. 
Ancient Textual Reference:
* Duanaire Finn: The Book of the Lay of Fionn, trans. by Eoin Mac Neill, Irish Texts Society, 1908 3 volumes (Series 7, 28, and 43)
* Fianaigecht, trans. by Kuno Meyer, School of Celtic Studies, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies 2nd reprint 1993
* Tales of the Elders of Ireland (Agallamh na Seanórach), trans. by Ann Dooley andd Harry Roe Oxford University Press, 1999
* Lebor na hUidre: Book of the Dun Cow, R.I Best / Osborn Bergin (ed.), Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies
Academic Analysis and Exploration (for a broadening of early understandings):
* 
Doctor Lincoln demonstrates the pan Indo-European existence of the hounds. These hounds sit at the border between life and death, and are the arbiters of justice in judging the soulds of the dead. The Gaelic is amongst the few where the original motif of two hounds of different colors still exist in lore. 
Sources & Notes - The Hounds as Arbitors of Judgement:
Existing Customs and Lore:
The hounds are known by a great many names across Celtic and ex-Celtic lands. Amongst some of the names given to them are the Devil's Dandy Dogs, Gabriel Hounds, Gabriel Ratchets, Wild Hunt, Wish Hounds, Dando and his Dogs. These and other names and beliefs are referenced by Kathrine Briggs in An Encyclopedia of Fairies - Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures. While most recorded lore is Christianized to some degree, as Briggs writes, "one can see in all these varying hunts how close the connection between devils, fairies and the dead can be."  As pertains to the Gaelic, she references that the hunt is conducted by members of the "Slaugh". Briggs describes the slaugh based on folk belief of Gaelic Christians, who see the slaugh as those who haven't received salvation. Neither she, nor Evan's Wentz before her (Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries), covered the more heathen view of the dogs simply judging whether or not someone lived honorably. While not covered by Briggs, the heathen ideas are still maintained amongst many who do not hold to Christianity in Co. Kerry between in the areas between Corr na Mona and Binn Gharbh. These still hold that the hounds belong to Finn and that it is he who is the the huntsman at the lead of the pack of hunters. This is further expounded upon by Dr. Lincoln in the source cited below. 
Ancient Textual Reference:
Academic Analysis and Exploration:
* 
: Doctor Lincoln demonstrates the pan Indo-European existence of the hounds. These hounds sit at the border between life and death, and are the arbiters of justice in judging the soulds of the dead. The Gaelic is amongst the few where the original motif of two hounds of different colors still exist in lore.
Sources & Notes - Morrigan chosing who will die:
Existing Customs and Lore:
Ancient Textual Reference:
Academic Analysis and Exploration:
Sources & Notes - Cailleach chosing who will die:
Existing Customs and Lore:
 
Ancient Textual Reference:
Academic Analysis and Exploration:
Iain Mac an tSaoir , Clannada na Gadelica—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iain_Mac_an_tSaoir (talk • contribs) .
:Hello! Very interesting material. Would you like it to be integrated into the main Gaelic Traditionalism entry? Please cite as many relevant sources as you can. Also, I previously commented over on your talk page. You may want to review the information and links I left for you. Thanks for your contributions, and please let me know if you want this integrated into the main article.-HroptR 16:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whenever you think it is sourced out enough to deserve being included then please feel free to do so. Thank you! Iain Mac an tSaoir 00:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I too would be interested in the sources for this, particularly the underworld/heaven bull division and the Fianna hunt as post-death judgement process.  I've read other myths about Fionn and his hounds, but hadn't seen this one before.  Thanks!  Damask Rose 08:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  okay, there was a start. I'll try to give more later in the week.—The preceding Iain Mac an tSaoir 23:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Note on Death Ideals

message: I think we state that the polytheistic branch is not some long term continuation of a 2000year old tradition. There should be emphasis
on the fact that much of the lore is being rediscovered and re-adapted both to return it to a polytheistic means and to bring some aspects into the modern world.
* Some of the general raw cultural aspects have survived, and most of the rest easily researchable and found within the Fénechas, the Triads, and lore, legal poems, and other errata recorded within the Lebar na Núachongbála (The Book of Leinster), Lebor na nUidre (The Book of the Dun Cow), Leabhar Baile an Mhota (The Book of Ballymote), Leabhar Mór Mhic Fhir Bhisigh (The Great Book of Lecan), Leabhar Buidhe Lecain (The Yellow Book of Lecan), Leabhar Feirmoithe (The Book of Fermoy), as well as the research done by Dr. Fergus Kelly. No one in their right mind would EVER claim that the polytheistic beliefs have survived unbroken over the centuries, though the claim to unbroken culture has, in the past, been misinterpreted as such a claim. Just to be clear, and re-affirm what both Pádraig and Iain are saying, the Polytheist movement of Gaelic Traditionalism is very recent, not some unbroken religious belief. 
--Breandán 07:12, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If as you say, it has not "survived unbroken", it would be better termed "revivalism" than "traditionalism". It smells more of Americans etc trying to rediscover the roots of their Irish ancestry after it's been wiped out for at least several generations. --MacRusgail 17:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather than resort to ad-hominems and generalized caustic and extremely non-NPOV attacks that do not present specific issues of contention, but merely attack the nationality of some (not all, the Traditionalism movement has members in Ireland, Scotland, Australia, Canada, Israel, mainland Europe, and South Africa as well) of the adherents to the religion, might I suggest that you either attempt some measure of objectivity and present valid criticisms of the specifics of the movement itself (as opposed to spelling and grammar issues) or, if you cannot do so, remove yourself from the editing of this article. Breandán 20:19, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not an ad hominem, as you put it. The fact is that what's written here isn't very traditional at all, when it comes to the 20th century and after. The writers can't even come out with basic Gaelic phrases and spellings properly. --MacRusgail 15:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Point one- http://www.crannog.ie/sss.htm scroll down and you will see that Albanach is, in fact, spelled with one n. This seems to be a significant point of contention for you, so there you go. Point two, I do not see anything legitimate in your contentions, merely your disagreement with our religion and your obsession over grammar and spelling. You have not presented a legitimate challenge to any of our statements, merely condemned them as not being traditional based on spelling, and proven yourself to be blatantly biased and, in my opinion, attacking a religion you do not agree with. I request this article and all of the statements and edits made by this user be reviewed and a truly neutral editor make an unbiased decision as to whether the NPOV tag is legitimate. Breandán 16:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Point one - Click here. Point two, wikipedia is not a place for religious propaganda of any stripe, particularly when promoting claims to authenticity, which cannot be properly backed up elsewhere. This "traditionalism" has little to do with real Gaelic traditions. --MacRusgail 16:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to Irish dictionaries, not Gàidhlig, it is Albanach. I have Irish, albeit limited, and thus use the spelling from that perspective. However, this is such a trivial and peurile point that I am through arguing it. Thus far you have made accusations of false claims to authenticity repeatedly in spite of the fact that we state quite clearly that the religion was founded in the 20th century (by people who, while getting on in years, are still alive and were among the authors of this article, I might add) and have given substantial sourcing for the cultural aspects. You have neither provided any proof to the contrary, nor acted in a manner that is befitting Wikipedia by adding a criticism section providing sourced material and references to authors and scholars who dispute these claims. Your inability to remain neutral and your repeated attacks against a religion that you disagree with are speaking far more loudly than any protests that I or any other author or editor of this article could lodge. To use your logic, an atheist could make the same accusations of falsehoods and religious propaganda against the Catholic, Protestant, Islam, and Judeaism entries, yet such would be considered ridiculous and dismissed. A member of a protestant religion could easily drop an NPOV tag into the Catholicism entry by claiming that Catholics are not true Christians and use the exact same arguments you have here, and a Catholic could do vice-versa. I do not see how your actions here are any different, and your continued hostility towards our beliefs and this article are neither based in any presented facts, and smack of religious biggotry. At every turn, we have provided references that have been requested by neutral editors. At every turn, we have repeatedly stated that the religious beliefs are a modern revival. At every turn, we have maintained a professional demeanor and done our best to remain within the bounds of Wikiquette. You have continued to attack, using straw-man arguments and ad-hominems (I consider attacking the nationality of some of the members of our faith as an ad-hominem), and have not provided a single legitimate argument against our faith. If you claim the culture is not traditional, we will be happy to provide you with many resources, ancient and modern, that dispute that. If you claim our religion is not Traditional, we have simply to point out that it is the closest to ancestral belief as any can get without travelling back in time, and that it is a modern revival of such belief. If you claim that we cannot in any way claim to be Traditionalists because of our spelling and grammar, I will point out that, in spite of compulsory Gaeilge education, only 4.4% of the Irish people have Irish fluently and use it regularly as opposed to almost half that in the United States alone, despite the lack of available schools to teach it. If you state that our claim to the term Traditionalist is not valid as we are not Irish nationals, we would point out that the culture is not bound to nationality, and that it long ago expanded outside of the borders of Éireann, and the way we live quite closely resembles that of our pre-Anglo ancestors. In the end, we are what we are, and no amount of disagreement from you will change that. Breandán 17:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

text: One can only presume from what you've written, that you don't believe that traditionalism can be real because you believe that nothing exists of the original. Yet, if that were the case then the oral lore would not contain within it the same names of deities from those ancient times. The persons mentioned in the lore would not be, to varying degrees, fulfilling functions they fulfilled in those ancient times. The Kirk records would not be filled with those who in the 18th and 19th were brought up on charges for erecting stones and sacrificing bovine livestock. If the old customs did not still exist, then when Maire MacNeill went about collecting existing, living, customs, she would not have collected such incredible numbers of surviving customs that she ended up having to focus on one festival (Festival of Lughnasa by Máire MacNeill, Oxford University Press 1962). If the old customs did not still exist nor would Kevin Danaher been able to write The Year in Ireland, niether would F. Marian McNeill have written the volumes that comprise The Silver Bough, nor Standish Hayes O'Grady have recorded another tome of surving customs in  Silva Gadelica (I-XXXI), nor Walter L. and Mary G. Brenneman record customs surrounding the sacred wells in Crossing the Circle at the Holy Wells of Ireland. The tales and customs from the Gaelic speaking culture, all alive and well, are the materials of Gaelic Traditionalism. There is nothing gone and nothing to make up. We don't make up - we take up. We don't assimilate cultural materials, we work to become assimilated into the culture itself.   70.153.128.124 23:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: A Bhreandain choir, you have just ranted about ad hominem, and gone onto say I'm a religious bigot. My gripe is not with the religious aspect but with the pseudo-Gaelic, modern traditions (an oxymoron!) etc. It is clear that even with some autodidactic book learning that the "traditionalists" in question, neither properly understand, nor know their way around the older traditions. You are indeed what you are, but as Burns said "Oh wad some power the giftie gie us/To see oorsels as others see us!/It wad frae monie a blunder free us, And foolish notion". --MacRusgail 11:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  My appologies for implying you were a religious biggot, was not intending to do so, merely point out that the methodology of the criticisms levied thus far are the same as would be used between contesting religions. I am beginning to see that a key problem here is that you are coming from a Scottish point of view whereas I am coming from an Irish point of view, culturally and linguistically. This may be the root of a great deal of misunderstanding here. Breandán 05:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Material on Polytheistic Gaeldom

message: This Wikipedia article summarizes for the general public, a neutral, verifiable, and balanced overview of what Gaelic Traditionalism is, from many 
different viewpoints across the diverse spectrum of the cultural phenomenon of Gaelic Traditionalism.  As such, it is a long-standing collaborative and cooperative group effort, originating both outside and inside the cultural phenomena, as well as from interested neutral parties, including but not limited to members of cultural confederations such as  An Cónaidhm na Tuatha na nGael (ACTG), Clannada na Gadelica  (CnG), many diverse and independent tuatha, neutral academic sources, and others. 
Gaelic Traditionalism, looks directly to, and simply takes up, the extant living culture, folk life ways, literature, and other living traditional cultural artifacts, both in the Gaelic Homelands and the Diaspora, much as long-standing upper-echelon academic forensic cultural anthropologists, folklorists, and sociologists do. It is fair to say GT takes a multi-disciplinary approach, which has long been a scholastic standard in credentialed doctoral academia. This is to be found particularly in long-standing Celtic Studies university degree programs at such institutions as  The University of Edinburgh, School of Celtic Studies @ The Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, University College Dublin, University College Cork, National University of Ireland, Galway, University of Aberdeen, University of Glasgow, University of Strathclyde,  Universities of Aberdeen and Strathclyde and Trinity College, Dublin,  St. Francis Xavier University Nova Scotia (Celtic Studies Dept. started in 1891 there) and University of Bradford at Yorkshire Irish Diaspora Studies. 
Gaelic Traditionalism is a verifiably living, long-standing traditional cultural practice, both in the Homelands and the Diasporae. It is rooted deeply in both the Gaelic tribalistic revival brought on by 18th & 19th century upheavals in Ireland and Scotland, and the remnants of the Diasporal Gaelic Cultural Tradition that translated across the globe, preserved by Tradition Bearers and individual families, as folk life. It is demonstrably descending from nothing other than the indigenous Gaelic cultural traditions as the culture defines itself from within it's own authentic ancient matrix. Therefore, it is of necessity a diverse and traditional cultural phenomenon on it's own  merit, and necessarily represents what at times may be widely differing, and even contradictory, views and philosophies. These co-exist within the commonality of the authentic Gaelic Cultural Tradition as expressed in daily living-out of the sacrament of cultural lifestyle. These forces keep this a dynamic and growing cultural phenomenon.
Yr. Obed. Srvnr., 
Kathleen O'Brien Blair  --Kathleen O'Brien Blair 00:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How can "An Cónaidhm na Tuatha na nGael (ACTG)" be a traditionalist organisation when its name itself contains at least one blatant grammatical howler? You can translate a name using a dictionary, but that doesn't make it part of "tradition bearing". --MacRusgail 17:19, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The official name was An Cónaidhm Thuatha na nGael, the double indefinate article being a clerical error, but has been in the process of changing as we are re-filing articles of incorporation due to an expansion of scope of the organization. Breandán 05:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Purpose

message: CR or Celtic Reconstructionism and GT - Gaelic Traditionalism are *not* and never were the same religious movement or cultural phenomena. They originated separately in time and space and have evolved separately. 
CR is a created modern neo-pagan ritual-based religious movement with strong leftist leaning political agendas built into the neo-religion.  
Gaelic Traditionalism is a legitimate very old living extant cultural artifact of the Gaelic Cultural Tradition, both in the Christian and Polytheistic branches, in the Gaelic Homelands and the Diaspora. 
Celtic Reconstructionism tries to "reconstruct" what might have been. 
Gaelic Traditionalism simply re-employs the living cultural practices in which are deeply embedded religiosity and cultural customs that express that religiosity. GT ably demonstrates through folk life ways, cultural values, and a specific world view shaped by 3,000 years of living culture, that there is nothing to make up or reconstruct. The living cultural tradition, with its deeply embedded religiosity, is simply taken back up and re-employed. Arsenberg, one of the leading scholars in the field and not himself a member of the GT community, states this very clearly.
Important Note - Some GT, such as ACTG, say that there are pieces that have been lost that have to be brought back with some educated guess work and thus those specific parts of it are a modern cultural religious artifact. Some, such as Clannada, say that GT is ancient, perfectly preserved intact, in the bardic traditions and folk life ways as cultural customs that have deeply embedded religious elements, which simply need to be re-employed.  This can also be a major difference of opinion in the GT community, but it expresses as debate over liturgical frills rather than in-fighting. 
This is why CR is a modern political religion, and GT is a much older living cultural artifact.
Since both ACTG and Clannada contributed to this article in the first place, and will over time add the requested references, it is demonstrably a neutral independent article that stands on its own, since it expresses both in the article and in these talk pages, these differences of opinion. I am happy to add this to the main page as an edit of the main article if that will clarify matters and help to tidy things up. Please just let me know. We apologize for the tardiness of the added references, but we all, as I'm sure many other Wiki-folk do to, have day jobs, and some of us have night jobs and children and families and elderly relatives to care for too. We promise to make this a priority and ask for patience, as we seek to clarify, notate, reference, footnote, bibliographise, and collaborate.
The Admin may or may not be aware that there have been rumblings on the CR group lists and blogs of threats to cause this article to be edited to say that CR and GT are the same movement, for simply political reasons compounded by trauma-ridden personal animosity and prejudice against only one member of the GT community, none of which have to do with scholarly accuracy or forthright issues of NPOV. To merge the two articles would only create more opportunities for abuse of the system such as have already occurred and been documented in this talk section. 
As one member of Clannada, I respectfully and strenuously reiterate that a merging of articles is simply not feasible as CR is a modern neo-pagan politicized reconstructed religious movement, while Gaelic Traditionalism is demonstrably an extant living cultural phenomenon with embedded religiosity, which has persisted in the form of folk life ways in both the Gaelic Homelands and the Diaspora.  Gaelic Traditionalism fits "on all fours" the UNESCO definition of an indigenous native cultural religion.  http://portal.unesco.org/culture/en/ev.php-URL_ID=20362&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html   Celtic Reconstructionism does not.
Respectfully Submitted.
Yr. Obed. Scrvnr.,
Kathleen O'Brien Blair,  
Clannada
:Thank you for your thoughtful comment.  I assume that you were addressing me as "The Admin", and I thought that I would mention that I am entirely unaware of any discussion about this article outside of Wikipedia.  You mention "scholarly accuracy".  I'd like to encourage you to help us locate secondary sources on this movement (meaning material not written by practitioners) to help us ensure that we are not presenting original research.  Thanks in advance.  Jkelly 18:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not the same