Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche/Archive 6

message: :::More quotations from, Nietzsche, Godfather of Fascism?  (2002) which is a series of essays, largely apologetic for Nietzsche, that retain a sense of objectivity and NPOV.  (I am perhaps 40% done.) --Petrejo 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: quotes go into wikiquote and are linked in that manner--Buridan 12:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are not quotations by Nietzsche, they are quotations for the improvement of the article, so they don't belong at Wikiquote. In any case, here's another interesting point made by Babich. Just passing by 02:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No matter how wonderful Nietzsche's style, Justpassingby, style alone does not qualify anyone for the title of Philosopher.  His wonderful style is not questioned by anyone, rather, it's the obvious content that's questioned -- and the question deepens everytime you erase direct quotations from Nietzsche in order to prevent objective readers from reading his actual texts. Petrejo 03:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, yes, we've already read this POV of yours, so it is no longer worth mentioning or vaunting with brow and beating chest. It doesn't float, mate, so just try to up the ante, it won't get you far at all. I'm sure that person who called me a "coward", no less due to a similar POV as your own, was in fact yourself (which was kindly removed by another user) -- you might want to grow up before doing anything serious in scholarship or philosophy in general (and yes, I ignore WP:AGF on this: who else could have wrote such an imbecilic remark?). And what that anonymous individual called "cowardice" was extreme care and good taste, which is a very unfamiliar notion to many a popularly-minded individual. Just passing by 04:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're way off base, Justpassingby, since I have no idea who called you a coward.  You asked me to be civil with you, and I agreed -- and I expect you to be civil with me as well. Petrejo 00:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Way off base" as perhaps concerns that anonymous individual but not when noting my point: as Babich pointed out in that quotation, one cannot simply hope to understand Nietzsche through single pieces of quotations of his work or notes -- and so you see the relevance behind my "extreme care and good taste" when it comes to an evaluation of Nietzsche's thought. And I never "asked [you] to be civil", it goes without saying. Whatever the matter, I would also like to note Nietzsche's idea of race is not at all biologistic (the Nazis however made it such), and so Dr. Aschheim's conflation of Nietzsche with Nazism is patently absurd; a lot of the scholarship supports this, so don't take Dr. Aschheim's thought too seriously. Indeed, your additions of Jung to the fray aren't all too enlightening since Jung was not a philosopher -- but a psychologist (who is also known for such bizarre, putative psychologising of dead people), so it is clearly unlikely he would have been able to seive such differences. Heidegger among Nietzsche scholarship is known, like Deleuze, as an idiosyncratic reader of Nietzsche, and was quite possibly more influenced by the Nazis than Nietzsche, so whatever such "influence" Nietzsche had is dubious at best. See you chaps later, Just passing by 23:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I will now present an initial salvo of several quotations from Dr. Steven E. Aschheim's The Nietzsche Legacy in Germany 1890-1990 (U.C. Press, Berkeley, 1992).  Dr. Aschheim's scholarship is new but is becoming widely known.  He surveys a hundred years of history to present a factual account of Nietzsche's role in the German reactionary experience. (I am perhaps 75% through.)  Petrejo 22:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All right, I'll now present a second volley of quotations from Steven Aschheim that offers a penetrating survey of the influence of Friedrich Nietzsche upon three of the most famous German writers of the Nazi period, namely, Karl Jaspers, Carl G. Jung, and Martin Heidegger.  (I am perhaps 90% through.)  Petrejo 23:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various quotations 

message: Would anyone mind if I found a different photo to use for the article?  I've never seen the one that's currently being used before, and I don't think it's as iconic as some of the ones I've seen.  Like this one: http://vietsciences.free.fr/biographie/artists/writers/images/nietzsche.jpgEnigma00 19:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The 'canonical' Nietzsche images are so well-used on book covers that I (personally) am bored of them. I like the current image. Add other images by all means, (the images stop half way through the article), but I'd say keep the current top image. Other opinions? --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 23:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough; you're right that the usual ones are somewhat over-used, and this one certainly is different, but I suppose I just like the more iconic ones better, heh.  We'll see if anybody else has anything to say about it; it's not really a huge deal.Enigma00 16:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I like the current photo. — goethean ॐ 16:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: It sounds like you enjoy the catatonic pictures most of all. — goethean ॐ 16:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found them supremely sad in that a man of such hyper-brilliance could be reduced to such a low condition.Lestrade 16:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: I read the archives of the talk page and failed to find a comprehensive summary of what is actually POV in the article. 
In other words, can anyone summarize the arguments why this article is POV and what is needed to make it NPOV? Please keep your arguments brief and don't put kilobytes of quotations here. (Igny 19:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the major source of the POV complaint is that the article is remarkably uncritical of Nietzsche, especially given the history of interpreting him as a sort of forefather of Nazism.  -Smahoney 01:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I am removing the POV tag.  Those editors who believe the article needs NPOV'ng please state proposals to move forward. ≈ jossi ≈  t • @ 18:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I believe the article needs NPOV'ing, Jossi, and I'll state my proposal below, in detail, in the form of paragraphs and quotations from secondary sources. Petrejo 01:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  To summarize this suggestion/criticism (posted in more detail below). There is a controversy about Nietzsche versus Judaism and/or Antisemitism which has to be addressed in the article. I think a few sentences with a few quotes should suffice, right? Otherwise, a whole new article may be written (similar to Nietzsche's social and political views). (Igny 13:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: In the interest of Wikipedia procedures for editing a controversial article, I'm submitting a few paragraphs for group consideration and editing.  These paragraphs deal with the material that I've already contributed that has been erased several times, except that these paragraphs use quotations from secondary sources instead of from Nietzsche himself.  Under the Wikipedia rules, I'm willing to presume 'good faith', and try again.  (My quotations below are a select few of those already posted in this discussion list, viz. essays within Nietzsche: Godfather of Fascism? , and also The Nietzsche Legacy in Germany 1890-1990.)  Here are my proposed paragraphs:
::Although Nietzsche attacked anti-Semites throughout his literature, we may not conclude from this fact that he was also a supporter of the Jewish race and culture.  Although Nietzsche often said flattering things about the Jewish race and culture, even that is not sufficient evidence to conclude that he was also their supporter, because Nietzsche also said many negative and harmful things about Jews in his writings.
      
::These writings, moreover, go beyond his disputed, Will to Power, which was published post-mortem by his sister, Elizabeth Foerster-Nietzsche, whose openly anti-Semitic husband clashed with Nietzsche on this topic.  Remarks hostile to Judaism can be found in Nietzsche's The Antichrist, and Beyond Good and Evil.  For example, Dr. YirmiYahu Yovel writes:  
::And also,
 
::As Jacques Derria wrote:
::The question of Nietzsche's harmonic with the Nazi era was rarely dealt with in America in the past 50 years, partly due to the influence of Professor Walter Kaufmann.  K.R. Fischer writes:
::And also,
::The same criticism of Walter Kaufmann was also expressed by other scholars.  For example, Steven Aschheim writes:
::And also,
::Setting Walter Kaufmann's mild reading of Nietzsche aside for a moment, we can peruse the writings of a number of scholars who find more than a passing connection between the anti-Christian writings of Nietzsche and the Christophobic writings of the Nazi leaders.  R.S. Wistrich writes:
::Steven Aschheim (Hebrew University, Jerusalem) adds an interesting perspective to Nietzsche’s alleged anti-Semitism: 
  
::And also,
::And also,
::And also,
::In view of this, the popular notion that Nietzsche broke with composer Richard Wagner over anti-Semitism should be reviewed.  If Nietzsche had a falling out with Wagner over Wagner's loud and boisterous anti-Semitism, one cannot well explain why Nietzsche maintained their relationship for ten years, since Wagner was an ardent anti-Semite all his life.  Evidently, Nietzsche disliked most anti-Semites, however he tolerated Wagner for ten years.  In support of this view I would cite Robert Wistrich, who wrote:
::And also,
::And also,
::We can more carefully review Nietzsche's own anti-Semitic leanings from the vantage of a wider reading in Nietzsche’s impassioned prose.  For example, Daniel W. Conway wrote:   
  
::And also,
::In view of this, we should also reconsider the popular notion that Nietzsche’s sister, Elisabeth Foerster-Nietzsche, is to blame for forgeries that made Nietzsche appear to be an anti-Semite.  For example, R.C. Holub writes:
   
::And also,
 
::And also,
  
::And also,
::And also,
 
There is ample current scholarship on these topics to raise doubts about the mild moralist portrait that Walter Kaufmann bequeathed to us about Friedrich Nietzsche.  It should be included in any balanced evaluation of Nietzsche's asserted contribution to the science of Ethics.  Petrejo 01:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have some issues with this suggestion.  The first is stylistic - references should be footnoted, not in the form of inline quotes.  One or two, at most, inline quotes in a given section is more than sufficient.  Second, and this is also partly stylistic, I'm not sure what case you're trying to make.  Are you specifically arguing against a particular interpretation of Nietzsche's relationship with Wagner, or are you arguing that Nietzsche himself had anti-Semitic beliefs?  Or are you arguing that there is some relationship between Nietzsche and Nazism?  This brings me to my final issue, which has to do with what is appropriate here, and what isn't: Regardless of what you're arguing here, it is clear that you are arguing something.  The problem with this is that you don't really get a voice when writing an encyclopedia article - your sole task here is to arrange bits of information in order to provide an account of whatever topic you are dealing with, and it is very much clear that you are trying to do more than that here.  You are making recommendations to the reader as to what s/he should believe, and as to how they should be reading the texts.  You are referring to yourself, the author, in the first person, and you are making a case for something.  There's a fine line between presenting information in a cogent way and making an argument, and it is fairly clear that you have crossed it here.  My advice would be to identify one or two major arguments made in your sources, describe them and the readings that accompany them, adequately cite those descriptions, and leave it at that.  -Smahoney 02:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I would agree with Smahoney. You can have a section about Nietzsche and antisemitism, and describe the controversy by summarizing it and provide citations of secondrary sources as footnotes. Inclusion of carefuly selected quotes, without describing opposing views by citing other sources that assert a different viewpoint, can be construed as non-encyclopedic and in contradiction to WP:NOT and WP:NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈  t • @ 02:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, and somewhat more details may be included into Nietzsche's social and political views.(Igny 13:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've taken your advice, folks, and wrote a second draft.  One difference: I've included one in-line quote, and that's because it's already included in the current article as an in-line quote.  Your comments are welcome. Petrejo 03:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested addition 

message: There's another dimension of Nietzche's attitudes toward the Jews that should be considered. (Not really necessary, stylistically inappropriate)
According to Yovel (YirmiYahu Yovel 2002, p. 134)YirmiYahu Yovel, Nietzsche Contra Wagner (2002) Nietzsche: Godfather of Fascism? Princeton U. Press, p. 134, Nietzsche's attack on ancient priestly Judaism was as fierce and uncompromising as his assault on anti-Semitism.  Yovel also wrote (ibid. p. 135)YirmiYahu Yovel, Nietzsche Contra Wagner (2002) Nietzsche: Godfather of Fascism? Princeton U. Press, p. 135, that the anti-Semite accused Jews of having killed Christ, but Nietzsche accused Jews of having begotten Christ.  According to Yovel, Nietzsche said that ancient Judaism is grounded in ressentiment and is responsible for the corruption of Europe through Christianity.
Walter Kaufmann had defended Nietzsche from all charges of anti-Semitism, and his view has prevailed in the educated public, especially in the USA.  Yet Fischer (Kurt R. Fischer 2002, p. 294)Kurt R. Fischer, A Godfather Too: Nazism as a Nietzschean Experiment (2002) Nietzsche: Godfather of Fascism? Princeton U. Press, p. 294, suggests that Americans who followed Kaufmann's example haven't noticed "Nietzsche's passion and ferocity."  Fischer held that Kaufmann's readings of Nietzsche are always gentle.   (Doesn't really add anything)
Also, Steven Aschheim (Steven Aschheim 1992, p. 315)(Steven Aschheim, The Nietzsche Legacy in Germany 1890-1990 (1992) University of California Press, Berkeley, p. 315 called Walter Kaufmann's portrait of Nietzsche "gentle," and "sterilized," and he said Sokel (Walter Sokel, ibid. p. 316)(Walter Sokel, in Aschheim's, The Nietzsche Legacy in Germany 1890-1990 (1992) University of California Press, Berkeley, p. 316characterized Kaufmann's portrait of Nietzsche as "de-natured." (Nature of this criticism isn't clear, so it doesn't add anything)
Kaufmann praised Nietzsche as unblemished and opposed to all Nazi intents and acts.  However, Steven Aschheim (Steven Aschheim 1992, p. 245)(Steven Aschheim, The Nietzsche Legacy in Germany 1890-1990 (1992) University of California Press, Berkeley, p. 245 called Nietzsche, "the most acute anti-Semite that ever was,"  because in The Antichrist, Nietzsche imagined a most unholy role that Judaism played in Europe's spiritual history, namely, Christianity itself, making the Jews "the most fateful people of world history."  This new variety of anti-Semitism he called, "anti-Christian anti-Semitism." (This "new variety of anti-Semitism" is hardly new - Voltaire, for example, engaged in it as well)
 
Also, Conway wrote (Daniel W. Conway 2002, p. 175)Daniel W. Conway, Nietzsche's Imperial Aspirations (2002) Nietzsche: Godfather of Fascism? Princeton U. Press, p. 175 that although Nietzsche's contempt for anti-Semites sometimes obscured his suspicions of the Jews, Nietzsche exhibited a "deeper and more complex Judeophobia". (This, as is, is little more than an ad hominem - if there were some argument by Conway to suppoort it, that might be fine)
   
A rising chorus among scholars today questions those who would scrub Nietzsche's writings clean of any and all attraction to anti-Semitism.  (Stylistically inappropriate, and doesn't add anything)
Petrejo 05:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested addition - 3nd draft