Talk:Maria Callas

message: The Vocal decline section is quite long, but most of it is informative and pertinent. I did, however, remove the paragraph-long blockquote by Deborah Voigt because it was not directly relevant to Callas. (I searched back through revision history but couldn't find who originally contributed it - is there a tool that can do that?) I see the logic of having put it in — like Callas, Voigt lost a lot of of weight and it affected her physical vocal production. But Voigt's quotation doesn't mention Callas at all, it only describes her own experience. Therefore I think it strays too far from the subject at hand and needed to be removed, particularly given the lengthiness of the section. (note: comment = by User:JustDerek)
:Just my opinion, but personally I like having it in, and I do think it's pertinent discussing the vocal decline of a similarly great singer after a similarly huge and rapid weight loss. Softlavender (talk) 00:23, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Addendum: The text was added by User:Shahrdad, who has been by far the main contributor to the article: . I'm going to replace the text until there is some consensus to remove it. If you wish to improve the text, I suggest Googling for reliable-source comparisons of Callas's and Voigt's fates. But at this point I for one don't personally see a strong enough reason to delete it, as it sheds light on a situation that has been much discussed. Softlavender (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your points. I don't agree, but hey — that's why we have these talk pages. With this edit I don't in any way mean to impugn the work of User:Shahrdad; on the contrary I think this is a very good article, and for that he/she deserves a good deal of credit. However, at the risk of sounding like a dick, I would submit that a given section of text should not be considered sacrosanct because User:Shahrdad (or I, or anyone else) originally contributed it. Re: googling for reliable source comparisons on Callas's and Voigt's fates, I think that would be altogether appropriate if this article was, say, Vocal problems suffered by opera stars#Weight loss or something like that. Since the subject of the article is just Maria Callas, a paragraph of Deborah Voigt describing her own experience singing after dramatic weight loss with no mention of (much less comparison to) Callas strikes me as tangential. Perhaps that's the word I should have used originally. It's not that the Voigt quotation is altogether irrelevant. However, IMO it is also not so illuminating that it justifies inclusion despite its indirect relation to the subject at hand. The Vocal decline section already quotes Tito Gobbi, Joan Sutherland, Renee Fleming, Michael Scott, Walter Legge, and others(!) commenting on the effect of weight loss on Callas's voice. On top of all those, is an additional quotation with only an indirect relation to Callas's condition so indispensable? Anyway, that's my probably more than two cents. Perhaps some others will weigh in (no pun intended) on this point; if I'm outvoted then no worries, and so it goes.  JustDerek (talk) 03:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer your question, hardly anything in the entire article is indispensible. The text in question deals with a very similar and highly applicable situation of another soprano who went through a nearly identical experience, something that none of the second- and third-hand commentators did or commented on. The material should not be removed without consensus. If you want a comparison(s)/connection(s) to Callas, then you're welcome to find and add some, as suggested. Softlavender (talk) 04:21, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

text: Voigt's comment is impertinent and should be removed. Toccata quarta (talk) 10:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I included the paragraph when I wrote this article was that the lay person reading this article typically has very little understanding of the mechanics of singing and breath support and how the singer's body habitus contributes to them.  Many experts have spoken about the effects of the weight loss on Callas's singing, but none really give any explanation of how extra weight could be advantageous or how rapid weight loss could be deleterious to a singer.  Being a physician who deals daily with effects of weight on respiration, mainly the difference in breath pressures generated by overweight versus svelte patients, I felt that Voigt's explanation of what happened to her own breathing shed a great deal of light from a first-person viewpoint to what might have also happened to Callas's breathing physiology after her weight loss.  In the previous paragraph where Renee Fleming speaks of her opinion regarding Calllas's weight loss and vocal decline, she also brought up Voigt, and how her weight loss didn't affect her voice that much (critics mostly disagree).  I didn't include that part, because I didn't want the article to get too long, but perhaps I should re-add it to the Fleming quote. That might make the transition to Voigt's informative paragraph somewhat more logical.  Shahrdad (talk) 00:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: user:JustDerek, I can see exactly what you mean by saying the Voigt section is "tangential."  Be that as it may, I thought it was good to hear from another dramatic soprano who underwent a similar experience to Callas's and could talk about what it felt like to sing as a thin person when you're used to singing as someone much heavier.  None of the other experts who talk about Callas's weight loss and its deleterious effects really shed any light on how things are different when you sing when you're fat versus when you're thin.  Voigt came closest to explaining it in terms that a layman could understand. If anyone is interested in this from a medical and respiratory physiology point of view, I'd be happy to give a detailed explanation. Shahrdad (talk) 01:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

text: Well, things are much clearer now. Although I have removed the quotation, I now see its point, and would support including it in a footnote; that would offer laymen an explanation of the topic covered by the quotation, without overloading the main portion of the article with a text that relates mainly to another person's biography. Toccata quarta (talk) 08:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I reinstated the new paragraph, with some alterations to the first part.  I think it's a good bridge to the quote from Voigt herself.  Fleming asserts that Voigt sang just as magnificently after her weight loss.  Early after HER weight loss, Callas also sang magnificently, but with an altered voice, thinner, more acidulous. I think the Davis quote also notes those same changes in Voigt's voice.  Without the paragraph, it sounds like Voigt's voice didn't change at all, which kind of makes the Voigt quote more tangential.  With the Davis quote, I feel that we know that Voigt's voice also changed, and then Voigt gives a first hand explanation of what is different about her body now that it's small versus when she was quite obese. I would like to hear some more feedback from the others in this discussion. Shahrdad (talk) 12:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For those who are curious, one thing I have noticed in my practice as an anesthesiologist is the huge difference in the peak inspiratory pressure of patients when they are thin versus when they are obese.  We have many patients who are quote obese and undergo gastric bypass surgery.  Early on, the pressure registered on the ventilator with a specific breath volume is quite high, often triggering a high pressure alarm.  When these same patients return a year or two later, having lost a great deal of weight, the peak inspiratory pressures are far lower with the exact same breath volume given to them previously.  I think the Whooomph Voigt talks about is the tendency of the excess weight to push the air out of the lungs with a great deal of force after the singer has inhaled.  Normally, expiration is a passive function where as inhalation is an active function.  These obese singers have a "built in" breath support that comes from this higher expiration pressure, the same pressure that registeres as peak inspiratory pressure on a ventilator when the patients are unconscious and paralyzed.  Once this weight is gone, the air pushes itself out with a lot less force.  A singer who has learned to depend on this higher force when she was fat now has to find different means of generating that higher pressure, using muscles.  This is what Voigt talks about has having to think more about her breathing now than she did before.  As Fleming says, the effects on small voices needing little pressure isn't much, but for big heavy voices, any loss of breath pressure can be devastating.  I hope this explains the physiology a bit.  Shahrdad (talk) 12:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Thank you" to Shahrdad for sharing his "original research". As for the article: the section "Vocal decline" is strewn with quotes, and removing the ones discussed here wouldn't make much of a difference. As that subject is very much at the centre of almost every discussion about Callas, I think the extensive treatment here, using relevant quotes from singers and critics, is appropriate and helpful. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:46, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not appropriate, even if it is helpful. It belongs in a footnote. You are supporting the overloading of the main portion of the article with a discussion of someone else's biography. Toccata quarta (talk) 07:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

text:  see article where Callas entirely negates the whole debate ab weight loss being cause of her losing singing ability, as she
testifies that SOME OF HER VERY BEST RECORDINGS WERE MADE WHEN SHE WAS THIN, SKINNY ... THEN ALSO, see the added paragraph ab
her debilitating disease as the very likely cause of her singing decline, via losing support of her diaphragm support etc but also
her own words, that her voice box was ALL ALONG ENTIRELY FINE AND UN CHANGED .... and then OVERLAY over the disease causing her loss of singing ability, the further UNDERSTANDING , that at her best, , peak, etc she was singing in spirit, which can transcend even such a disease, if not disrupted e.g. by the Onasis ongoing disruptions ...  24.186.53.181 (talk) 20:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vocal decline/Deborah Voigt quotation 

message: This article seems to be well written but it goes on and on in excessive detail. Plus, I LOVE a good quote. Quotes can really bring a certain specificity and vividness to a text, but there can be too much of a good thing too. I really hope in the future someone removes some of the less necessitous quotes (especially some of the numerous block quotes), perhaps summarizing the main point in a quote first if important or chopping it into a much smaller quote. In general, I think this article needs to be skillfully pared down and some of the peripheral info removed or condensed. Rmm413 (talk) 03:19, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for this input. If you see by recent edits and my notes from today you will see that I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment, although I am only now seeing it. Too many quotations in an article is a violation of Wikipedia rules. I would like to add that when you encounter an article like this that is drowning in quotations, do not wait for someone to come behind you and remove them. As an editor you have the authority to remove unnecessary quotations or to make any adjustment you deem necessary. MarydaleEd (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too detailed & too many quotes 

message: I read that they are considered 'counter-productive' on classical musicians (why?) and that it should not be added to this article. But, dammit, Pavarotti has one. And not having an infobox makes the article look incomplete. I hate it. What basis is there for excluding it, really? ‡ Єl Cid, Єl Caɱ̩peador ᐁT₳LKᐃ  14:20, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: The only thing in the article regarding her overall nationality that is detailed and cited in the article is that she was born in the U.S. to Greek parents, and that she renounced her U.S. citizenship in 1966. Thus, I am restoring the long-agreed-upon wording, "an American-born Greek". Softlavender (talk) 19:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added an AP Paris source (Maria Callas abandons US Citizenship (AP Paris - syndicated in https://newspaperarchive.com/charleston-daily-mail-apr-06-1966-p-10/) on Callas' US and Greek citizenship. Sources are important for Wikipedia articles become the foundation of most Callas biographical entries on the internet. According to Wikipedia Italia,  Callas was also a naturalized Italian citizen (1949 - the year she married Giovanni Battista Meneghini)  but can not find any source for this, which is also a wording duplicated in many articles on Callas in Italy (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Callas). Filmartiste 00:29, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Mjsullus, remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes. You've been told that at least twice: , . And stop writing "Filmartiste" at the end of your posts. Please also learn to nest your replies by using colons; type one more colon than the post you are replying to (I have done that for you above). Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality in first sentence 

message: It has been 9 years now that this article has been seriously out-of-date.
Someone experienced in Wikipedia should update this article with the information, revealed in 2010, that she had dermatomyositis.  This is critical to understanding the later part of her life and will allow the elimination of much/most of the "mysteries" that formerly existed.  
Dermatomyositis, which a few years ago her doctor revealed to the world a few years ago explains the three main mysteries:
From the Wikipedia Dermatomyositis article under "Society and Culture" there is this reference:
http://www.grreporter.info/en/maria_callas_did_not_kill_herself_grief_onassis_rare_disease_cost_her_career_and_life/3863
25 Greek Reporter: "Maria Callas did not kill herself from grief for Onassis, a rare disease cost her career and life". GR Reporter. 28 December 2010. Archived from the original on 4 January 2015. Retrieved 1 January 2015.
The clinical condition of Maria Callas has deteriorated gradually after 1960 and in 1975 she visited Dr. Mario Giacovazzo – the former personal physician of Aldo Moro – in the hospital in Rome. 
The experienced doctor immediately noticed the bluish colour of her skin and a red spot on the left side of her neck. Her hands were full of scars. Everything showed that the singer was strongly affected by dermatomyositis.
For the first time at the time a doctor came to the conclusion that the gradual loss of the voice of Maria Callas was due to genuine illness not just psychosomatic factors, as was believed previously."
First, dermatomyositis, like rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis is an autoimmune disease.  Instead of your immune system attacking the joints of the nerves, it attacks your "skeletal muscles".  (Skeletal muscles in the medical sense, muscles that we have conscious control over, as opposed to smooth involuntary muscles like in the digestive tract.)  
Like RA and MS, DM flares and subsides, for some lucky people it even goes into remission.
1. The weight loss was probably due to large amounts of muscle inflammation in the body. (It is very common, I lost 30 pounds in one month, but now there are treatments, so the weight loss stopped there.)
2. The loss of vocal control. Proximal muscles, that is skeletal muscles in and near the torso are affected most.  That includes breathing muscles, like the intercostal muscles and the .
3.  Her doctor said that her apparent histrionics and flightiness (not an exact quote), was the caused by her desire to cover-up that she was unable to perform.
I would update it myself, but it is beyond my abilities.  I have the same disease she did, which is how I came across this.  But the majority of the article is on her singing and her career, plus speculation as to "what was up with Maria?"  The changes require expertise in those areas, since the speculation during her lifetime is relevant to her career.  
If one of you wants authoritative advice on dermatomyositis, I recommend a rheumatology professor/rheumatologist from your local teaching hospital.  The disease is very rare, so cases are normally referred to a centre.  So an ordinary rheumatologist would not be adequate.  The Myositis Center at Johns Hopkins is the "go to" place in USA.  Dr Lisa Christopher-Stine is the leading specialist in this there (Peter Frampton's rheumatologist for his similar disease, IBM).  
And the Myositis Center at Royal Salford is the "go to" place in the UK.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D09:A87F:FD10:AD8C:382B:258:32C2 (talk) 01:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This is covered in the article in the section "Fussi and Paolillo report", although adding the source you provide is probably a good idea. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dermatomyositis, which a few years ago her doctor revealed to the world a few years ago explains the three main mysteries 

message: In the beginning of the section Scandals and later career there is this image  which is not showing because it requires a login for the site tumblr.com. Can someone fix that problem?
Kinamand (talk) 07:09, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a link to an image that hasn't been uploaded to Wikipedia. That's why it's not visible in the article. You have to click the link to view it -- this is the case for all external media on Wikipedia, that's why there's a boldface header above it that says External image. There is no need to log in to Tumblr. Softlavender (talk) 08:01, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no account at tumblr, but I can see the image by clicking in the link. The image is in fact available at Commons: :File:Maria Callas' reaction.jpg, although I'm not sure about its legal status there. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:19, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's almost certainly a copyvio of an Associated Press image. I've nominated it for deletion on Commons. --Xover (talk) 05:23, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with image 

message: It is late and I really must stop editing this article. After 37 years of professional editing, I am no spring chicken. I had no idea when I started editing this article it would be such an undertaking. As I have stated in my edits, this article has been written like a college research paper. While the authors have clearly gone to a great deal of effort, college research papers and encyclopedia articles are written in entirely different styles, which is why all of these quotations are inappropriate, and it is why Wikipedia has a policy against multiple quotations in articles. The biggest difference is that in an encyclopedia every sentence should introduce new information and in a college research paper quotations are used to substantiate new information. I invite the authors and editors to reference other encyclopedias to see the style in which they are written and emulate that style in Wikipedia. There is more of this article to edit but I am exhausted and I really must stop. I encourage others to help me complete this project. Please remember: concise and focused. Best wishes! MarydaleEd (talk) 03:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia operates by WP:CONSENSUS, not by one editor's opinion. Going forward, please get consensus before making mass changes/deletions to the article. Softlavender (talk) 23:52, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Friend, I have been editing on Wikipedia for many, many years and am aware of how it operates. Edits are not made by consensus unless there is conflict. Editors unilaterally make changes on Wikipedia every day. Wikipedia's editors exist for just that reason. Wikipedia editors not only has the authority to make edits to articles, they are encouraged to do so. It is the very lifeblood of this project. In my marathon editing session on this article I could see that it had been monitored by editors for many years. Given that interest, I am surprised that is was in such bad shape. It is obvious by other comments left here that I am in good company in that assertion. I thank you for your contribution to this article and to all of Wikipedia and hope we can continue to work together to bring the articles contained within Wikipedia up to encyclopedia standards, as is the expressed wishes of its founders. We are colleagues in our work here, not adversaries. Best wishes to you. MarydaleEd (talk) 00:03, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now that  has objected to your edits they are no longer uncontroversial and you should seek consensus before making any broad or sweeping changes. Based on your above comments you have quite strong opinions about the fundamental approach of this article, which is an indication that you should discuss your proposed changes before implementing them in the article. --Xover (talk) 05:50, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Wholesale edits

message: , you have added the term "amoral" or "amoral lifestyle" to this article four times: , , , . This is absolutely something that cannot be stated in Wikipedia's voice. If you do this again you will be reported to administrators. Softlavender (talk) 00:39, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  An "[[amoral]] lifestyle" 

message: Is there something worth adding to the article about modern "live" Maria Callas performances without just being a promotion?
See production company and NYT 2018
 — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 11:51, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's briefly mentioned as the last entry "In popular culture", but the NYT article by Anthony Tommasini is more informative and could be added as a citation there. I'm not sure the event as such should be elaborated upon. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:16, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maria Callas "live"? 

message: It’s odd not to have a single photo of her before her weight loss, especially as it is discussed so much in the article. 109.152.244.12 (talk) 09:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: *  Originally published in French in 1985. Translated into English by John W. N. Francis.
We should say something in this biography about the troubles experienced by EMI attempting to publish a recording of Callas singing La traviata. EMI signed Callas in 1952 with the overarching intention of setting up an official EMI-style Callas recording of La traviata, a recording of the highest quality, but they never completed the task. Callas recorded La traviata with Italian label Cetra Records in 1953, which prevented EMI from releasing the same music for five years, or Callas would be in violation of her Cetra contract. Rather than wait the necessary five years to do so in 1958, EMI put Antonietta Stella on disc singing the same opera in 1955, to fill a perceived gap in the EMI repertoire. The Stella album did not sell well. Callas was very angry about EMI favoring Stella, but EMI was already angry with Callas for choosing Cetra for her first La traviata recording. After that, various missteps by both Callas and EMI resulted in the complete failure of the project. Instead, EMI found a lower quality independent label recording of Callas singing the role in Lisbon in March 1958, and they published this in 1980 through American affiliate label Angel Records, three years after her death. 
All of this friction, and the comedy of errors lasting through the 1960s and '70s, was the subject of interest by various authors including Pierre Flinois in "La Pirate et la Diva" published in 1982 in the French magazine L'Avant-Scène Opéra, producer Walter Legge in his memoir On and Off the Record (1982), and by film director Franco Zeffirelli in his essay "Ma Traviata", published in Paris in 1983 around the same time of his film release La Traviata.  Angel Records chief Brown Meggs fictionalized the story and published it as the novel Aria in 1978, changing all the names involved, and even changing the opera to Otello, but still recognizably about Callas and La traviata. So this stuff is significant to the career of Callas, proved because so much has been written about it. Binksternet (talk) 22:11, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Record label friction, missteps with EMI and Cetra Records regarding ''La traviata'' 

message: What does "heavily ethnic" mean when applied to Astoria, Queens? If there were lots of people of Greek origin there, why not say that? If there were lots of people from various immigrant backgrounds, say that. Since white Americans possess ethnicity, even a 100% white neighborhood is "heavily ethnic". It just means people.MongogramForCandy (talk) 12:23, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: "heavily ethnic"?