Talk:List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict

message: "Arab villages
Four Arab villages located in the Latrun Corridor were destroyed based on the orders of Yitzhak Rabin due to the corridor's strategic location and route to Jerusalem and because of the residents' alleged aiding of Egyptian commandos in their attack on the city of Lod. The residents of the three villages were offered compensation but were not allowed to return.[3]"
There is confusion here over how many Arab villages Rabin ordered to be destroyed and how many had residents who were offered compensatiion.
It looks to me as if the 4th has been added in but may not have been part of Rabin's order to demolish etc.
Can anyone clear this up. As it is it reads inconsistently.
Sam 01:54, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd love to, but the numbers are disputed. And there are a lot of entries here that should not be here. (I just removed one actually) In any case, the article needs massive cleanup. Care to help? :) Tiamuttalk 17:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many villages? 

message: ===December 5===
*List of destroyed villages during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and List of villages destroyed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war(Zero created additional page with the same things) and List of localities in Palestine 1948 (also the same thing as the other two).    Not of any use, especially as it is inaccurate (i.e: lists Haifa as destroyed village, is still there with a large prominent population, lists Jaffa as a destroyed village, is still there with a large prominent, majority arab city. etc.)
** Keep of course.  The person who suggested deletion is here as an Israeli propagandist and is busy destroying the middle east section of Wikipedia.  Expect more phoney requests from Leumi.  As for Haifa and Jaffa, they don't match the page title accurately so I removed them.  Perhaps the original author of that page included them because the Arab districts of both cities were heavily damaged and/or expropriated during the war. --Zero 01:44, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  From Lists for deletion 

message: *List of destroyed villages during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and List of villages destroyed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war(Zero created additional page with the same things) and List of localities in Palestine 1948 (also the same thing as the other two).    Not of any use, especially as it is inaccurate (i.e: lists Haifa as destroyed village, is still there with a large prominent population, lists Jaffa as a destroyed village, is still there with a large prominent, majority arab city. etc.)
** Keep of course.  The person who suggested deletion is here as an Israeli propagandist and is busy destroying the middle east section of Wikipedia.  Expect more phoney requests from Leumi.  As for Haifa and Jaffa, they don't match the page title accurately so I removed them.  Perhaps the original author of that page included them because the Arab districts of both cities were heavily damaged and/or expropriated during the war. --Zero 01:44, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: December 5

message: I would agree with the very old commentary by Zero on this page. Either somebody should add (I don't think I'm qualified to do this) the Jewish communities destroyed or change the title of the article. It does give the impression that the only villages destroyed were arabs. While they were indeed the majority, I believe it is grossly POV-ish to avoid mentioning the Jewish communities that suffered the same destiny. Imho, either we do it right or we don't at all.
:I've added a Jewish villages section. Furthermore, I think a large portion of the Arab villages should be removed (some are even duplicated under different names!), but it's true that many Arab villages were destroyed and should be at least listed somewhere. -- Ynhockey || Talk 13:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV? 

message: Moved from List of villages destroyed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war to List of villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Reason is that many, if not most of these, were not actually destroyed. Fixing redirects now. -- Ynhockey || Talk 09:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved

message: I'm concerned about the quality of sources used for this article, if it is indeed a list copied from www.palestineremembered.com, which is a propaganda website that does not meet Wikipedia's reliable sources requirements.  Are there other any reliable sources for these claims? Jayjg (talk) 09:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Palestine Remembered' is certainly not an encyclopedic source. Morris would be much better. I'll try and compare the lists over the next couple of weeks. --Ian Pitchford 10:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Another convenient source is the book "All that Remains" by Khalidi, which has an article on each location.  His main sources are British village statistics and Morris' first book but also on-site inspection (most locations get one or more photographs).  There is also some summary material on p4-5 of Fischbach, who describes the disagreement over the number of abandoned sites (counts range from 360 to 429).  The 360 figure is from the Israeli government.  Some of the disagreement is due to differences in definition (what constitutes a village, what if it is only partially destroyed or depopulated, etc). This disagreement should be described in our article.  Fishbach mentions a few other lists that exist.  Many individual locations have their own literature but it is hard to find. --Zero 11:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

text: How can place names be copyvios?  --Zero 21:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, what I mean is, if you click on the links in this article, they go to articles which appear to be copyvios of the palestineremembered site. Jayjg (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see what you mean.  That is indeed a problem.  What I suggest is that we have separate articles only for localities which are somehow notable more than most.  Rather than having dead links for the others, a better way would be to make this page into a table so that a little basic information such as population can be recorded without needing separate articles.  --Zero 10:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you able to create tables like that? I haven't done it before, and don't really know how.  I'd like to have a solution in place before I start blanking the CopyVio articles and eventually deleting them. Jayjg (talk) 17:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ian and I have agreed to cooperate on preparing a draft of this page in tabular form.  I guess it will take us a few weeks.  After that we can conduct a massacre of those pages which only have material copied from palestineremembered. Of course we'll have to add it to some List of Massacres page ;-). --Zero 23:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How is that work going? Jayjg (talk) 17:19, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality of sources 

message: Until now I had not looked much at Khalidi's "All that Remains" (1992).  It appears to be a very meticulous piece of research.  I'll briefly explain his methodology.  He started with two British village lists from 1945 and investigated their (few) differences.  Then he eliminated those not inside the green line.  Then he eliminated those which Israeli census data showed to have not been depopulated during the 1948 or in its immediate aftermath.  Depopulation had to be complete, but it was not required that the buildings be destroyed.  Then every site was visited except for a few on closed military reservations.  Where possible old local residents were interviewed.  It was required that the locality had a separate identity (such as its own name), had a core of permanent buildings (bedouin encampments and the like were excluded even though some were quite large), and was occupied by Arabs on the eve of the 1948 war.  Then he investigated all differences between his list and 6 previous lists (some shorter and some longer).  There is an appendix listing all the differences. Nothing is perfect but it would hard to imagine a list more authoritative than this.  Comparing his list to our page, I see about half a dozen discrepancies which I will now correct.  I also looked at the changes previously made by Uriber and Ynhockey and agree with them all (but see Talk:Machsom Watch concerning Ajanjul and Bayt Nuba). --Zero 10:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources and Checking 

message: Robin Hood 1212 16:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shows you something about the credibility of this article. --Gabi S. 18:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Bil'in was a village of about 200 people in the north east corner of the District of Gaza that was depopulated and destroyed in 1948.  Nothing to do with the Bil'in that make the news these days. --Zerotalk 15:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I find the list rather useful, actually, it gives you a framework when names pop up. I have just created articles about 2 new villages (Bayt Naqquba and Kafr Bir'im) as quite interesting information about them popped up in the Morris and the Jiryis books (Oh, and I´m not finished adding the info yet..) Regards, Huldra 17:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bil'in is in Gaza? 

message: Hi all. I have been working on the Waste management section and I spend some time working at the Hiriya site outside Tel Aviv. I am reliably informed the dump gets it's name from a village "Al-Hiriya" that was located on the site to the south of Ramat Gan. Perhaps you would like to include this on your list.  I am not certain which place it would fall into. --Alex 11:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pretty sure this is Al-Khayriyya in the Jaffa district.  Also spelt Al-Khayriya and Al-Kheiriya.  It had a population of about 1500 and was captured by the Alexandroni Brigade in 29 April 1948.  There were supposed to be a few buildings remaining in the late 1980s.  --Zerotalk 13:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I have checked this with PalestineRemembered and you are correct in your assumption. I have changed the spelling of the Arab village name to take this into account. Perhaps you could add the Arabic alphabet spelling to my article for clarification- Hiriya --Alex 16:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Al-Hiriya

message: Tarbikha is correct.  It was close to the Lebanese border. --Zerotalk 10:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  You saw Tarshiha, I say Tarbikha 

message: I have linked al-Maliha (in the Jerusalem district) to Malha ...as I believe they are the same...if I´m wrong, then please correct me. Regards, Huldra 03:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Ramat Danya is nowhere near Ramot. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, thanks. Do you know if there is an article about Ramat Daniya (under another name) here? Regards, Huldra 10:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Malha|al-Maliha]] 

message: He is not a mainstream scholar.  His book claims that European Jews are Khazars, among other falsified claims.--Urthogie 17:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're mistaken. There's nothing in the book about Khazars and Khalidi's academic credentials are rather good by any standards, e.g., London, Oxford, Princeton, Harvard. I also have a copy of his book in front of me and the basic source used is the Palestine Index Gazetteer compiled by the Survey Directorate of the Palestine Government in 1945. It includes grid references (PGR) for every site described. --Ian Pitchford 18:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources indicate that Khalidi's work is not only mainstream, but definitive: Morris describes All That Remains as "...a very significant encyclopedic work... the book represents an ‎ indispensable basic research tool... a dazzling achievement..." and Ann Lesch, writing in the British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies describes the book as "the definitive source for research into the Palestinian displacement in 1948". --Ian Pitchford 18:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Source for Morris review?  Amazon.com extracted the good parts for the book review, but I'd like to see if the full thing from Morris agrees with the figures.  Update: I've searched and searched and can not verify the existence of Morris's view outside of amazon.com.  All I could find were articles where morris heavily criticizes Khalidi and Khalidi defends his scholarship.--Urthogie 18:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All you need do is consult Morris' own book where you'll find a map of 392 depopulated villages, with a key listing the names of all of the villages from p. xiv onwards. There's no significant disagreement between Morris and Khalidi on this issue. If you have no sources to bring to bear on this matter you should not dispute the article. --Ian Pitchford 19:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Khalidi is certainly a reliable source for the names of towns depopulated during the 1948 war. Depopulated isn't a POV claim. It doesn't attribute the depopulation to anyone, so your points on Khalidi's broader theories concerning why people left are irrelevant here. Khalidi interviewed eyewitnesses and documented the names of villages that were left with no inhabitants after the war. Those names are well known in Arab circles (your uncle, your mother, your father, your cousin can tell you) and they are not hard to write down. I don't see why you would challenge this information as disputed. (I would never, for example, claim that Elie Wiesel isn't a reliable source for the Holocaust.) While the apology you just posted on my talk page was a nice gesture, it seems that you are once again overshooting a bit to defend your POV. And this without realizing how ridiculously offensive some of your suggested "improvements" to articles can be, to those facing mass deletion, or the throwing of their work on an article into disrepute via the overzealous placement of controversy tags. Thanks. Tiamut 18:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elie Wiesel is not a reliable source for history, Tiamut.  Please turn down the psychological intensity and Wikipedia:Assume good faith.--Urthogie 18:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't use straw man arguments Urthogie. Address the points I made about Khalidi's use here please, and I'll try to keep my comments strictly limited to the article from now on. Tiamut 19:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that if one considers his rather fringe view on the palestinian exodus, it becomes clear that he should not be used as the only source for this article.--Urthogie 19:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Many thanks. We planned to add a table giving this additional information plus Morris' depopulation code, but it's a major task. --Ian Pitchford 20:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great.  Good luck, --Urthogie 20:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  khalidi not a reliable source 

message: There are a number of villages that were depopulated by the Israeli authorities after November 1948. I once tried to include a couple of entries before realizing this list was restricted to the war itself. "The 1948 war was not the only cycle of ethnic cleansing, between October 1948 to November 1949, the Israeli army evacuated the villages of al-Safsaf, Iqrit, Kufr Biram, Kufr 'Anan, Khasas, Jau'neh, Qayttiyeh, al-Ghabasiyya, al-Majdal, and al-Battat and later seized all of their properties. In 1951 the Israeli army evacuated 13 villages in the triangle area and seized their properties." 
Should we create a new list and link it to the bottom of this article, or expand the list here by adding a sub-section and retitling? Some examples of villages that would be included are:
5 November 1948 : Aqrat
5 November 1948 : Rama 
15 November 1948 : Kfar Birim 
1949 : Hasas or Khasas 
4 February 1949 : Anan or Kfar Anan
28 February 1949 : Kfar Yasif
5 June 1949 : Hisam, Qatiya and Jauneh (or Yanuh)
24 January 1950 : Ghabisiya
March 1950 : Batat (or Battat)
17 August 1950 : Majdal (now Majdal Askhkelon)
February 1951 : 13 Arab villages in Wadi Ara
17 November 1951 : Buwaishat or (Khirbet Buweishat) 
September 1953 : Umm al-Faraj
We have to standardize and check the spelling against existing articles. The source for these listings is Sabri Jiryis, The Arabs in Israel (1968). Tiamut 09:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mind including villages depopulated during the martial law period, but it should be more properly sourced than just one non-notable hardcore anti-Israel site. Has there been any major research done on the subject? -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

text: A new section in this article would look good but then the title wouldn't fit too well.  I don't think we should make the title even longer though.  Maybe if you start work on the list (here or in a new place as you like) then we can decide on its final location.  As for research, I don't know of a systematic enumeration but many individual cases can be documented well enough.  I suggest starting with Jiryis's list then we can find more sources for each locality.  Some will be easy; others maybe not. I also foresee a problem about definitions as some of these were semi-permanent Bedouin communities that didn't appear on maps as villages.  Finally I'll note the following footnote from a paper of Jiryis: "Among these were the villages of Batat, Amqa, Saffuriya, Majdil, Mansura, Ma'ar, Kuwelkat, Barwa, Damun, and Ruweis. For their fate and that of other Arab villages and the Jewish settlements built on their lands, see Haaretz, 28 July 1972."  Maybe I can get that. --Zerotalk 01:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New list?

message: Is this Arab es-Subeih?  Please give a source for new localities.  The base list is from Walid Khalidi. --Zerotalk 10:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  al-Subeih 

message: I don't remember clearly, but wasn't Mishmar Hayarden re-established only about a year after it was destroyed?  If so, I'm not sure it belongs here.  --Zerotalk 14:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mishmar Hayarden 

message: I added the source of what I wrote on the Six-Day War section of the article, and expanded the section a little. I only posted this here in the discussion because I forgot to in the brief edit summary. -- Al Ameer son 17:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: *Bayit VaGan 
*Giv'on HaHadashah
*Jewish Quarter of Hebron
*Kfar Ata
*Ramat Rachel
Can anyone? The first was abandoned for a year beore the residents returned. Is that depopulation? The second was re-established in 1977. The third refers to only a specific quarter of the city and not the city in its entirety. The fourth and fifth also abandoned for a year only, before the residents returned. 
Is it fair to claim that these are villages that were permanently depopulated? Because that's what depopulation as used in this article means, at least for the over 400 Palestinian villages named here. That they were never re-established. I am intending to remove these entries, so those with a compelling counter-argument are asked to present it here. Tiamuttalk 18:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would query whether these are "de-populated" in the regular meaning of the word too. Much earlier we were told that partial, ethnically-divided, depopulations can't be counted (see here) but that's quite unjustifiable. The other, perhaps most serious unwanted obstruction would be fixed if the article was re-named "... Arab-Zionist conflict" - currently, it's saying we can't have anything before 1948, and that's clearly not what editors want to work to. PRtalk 18:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I have removed the Jewish Quarter of Hebron because of an earlier discussion, and another Jewish neighborhood. As for the above, the article says nothing about permanent vs. temporary depopulation. I especially don't understand the objection for Giv'on HaHadasha, which was re-established by a completely different group only 48 years after the depopulation. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Explain these entries?

message: This section is a workshop for Arab villages depopulated during the early Zionist period up to about 1930.  It is quite hard to find precise information about this topic.
The following are land purchases from the Sursock, Farah, Ra'is, Atala, and Tueini families (Stein, Land Question in Palestine, p60).  Most are in the Jezreel Valley, some further north.  The first two might involve multiple villages and need to be expanded.  Each needs individual checking that they were depopulated. Please add other possibilities, and strike out resolved cases.  Zerotalk 05:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A good source on this topic is this one. I have included alt spellings for the names above as transcribed in the appendix of this work. Tiamuttalk 11:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's the same book!  But I hadn't noticed that appendix.  I have both Stein and Avneri's books in hardcopy. Zerotalk 11:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops. Sorry for missing that link. Tiamuttalk 11:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

text: We can see what localities disappeared between 1880 and 1940s by comparing maps and/or census lists.  This would give a long list, needing work for every name.   Soon I will have the 1922 and 1931 village lists online.  Zerotalk 00:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Yes and no. According to the Hope Simpson 1930 report into the  1929 Palestine riots; a lot of conflict stemmed from these land-sales; e.g. in the Jezreel Valley the British had to use force to expel the Palestinian villagers. I´m not saying *everything* should go into the article: as it says on the top of this section: this section is a workshop. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't agree that "conflict" implies violence or threats of violence, even though there was violent protest associated with many of these depopulations.  I'd prefer that the list be fairly inclusive, with the individual details appearing in the individual articles.  But the name of the page will remain an issue.  I also think we should create a category for these villages, and the name of that category will be another conflict. :) Zerotalk 00:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Perhaps "Sofsafe-Ain-Sheika" actually refers to two separate villages? Sofsafe may be Safsaf. Ain Sheika? I don't know. It could be a bastardization of 'Ain Sakhina. But it needs more research. Tiamuttalk 18:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The 1922 census lists "Al Sufsafeh" under "Tribal areas, subdistrict of Haifa", but I can't see anything that looks like Ain Sheika. The way the Shaw table is laid out seems to indicate these should be close to Mahloul which I think is Malul in SWP 5,Mi. Just to the east of Malul (close to Nazareth) SWP shows a watercourse 'Ain es Sufsafeh.  SWP 5,Mi has a watercourse (no village) Ain Esh Sheikhah between Jebata and Jeida, seems very close to Ramat David. Zerotalk 23:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Another useful and detailed source is The Jewish National Fund by Walter Lehn with Uri Davis, Kegan Paul International 1988. The appendices include some 50 pages which I translated from the memoirs of JNF agents Musa Goldenberg and Joseph Nahmani, detailing the various methods by which the lands of particular villages were acquired, and the populations removed. As far as I know, the books themselves have never been translated into English; but for Hebrew speakers (does that include you, Tiamut?) they are very useful sources. RolandR 17:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  1880-1946 depopulated villages 

message: There are a lot of structures in 
..which belongs to villages depopulated long before 1948. Now, not all of these villages were depopulated because of the "Arab-Israeli conflict" (even broadly interpreted) ...but as we (at least not I!) do not know *why* they were depopulated, I just put the info here, as I find them, Huldra (talk) 18:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Petersen

message: By the way, sources in the know that I've spoken to indicate that as many as 70 villages were depopulated prior to 1948, most via land purchases, but a couple also from disease or in earthquakes. We have some way to go before reaching that figure. Tiamuttalk 18:11, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We can see what localities disappeared between 1880 and 1940s by comparing maps and/or census lists.  This would give a long list, needing work for every name.   Soon I will have the 1922 and 1931 village lists online.  Zerotalk 00:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Yes and no. According to the Hope Simpson 1930 report into the  1929 Palestine riots; a lot of conflict stemmed from these land-sales; e.g. in the Jezreel Valley the British had to use force to expel the Palestinian villagers. I´m not saying *everything* should go into the article: as it says on the top of this section: this section is a workshop. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't agree that "conflict" implies violence or threats of violence, even though there was violent protest associated with many of these depopulations.  I'd prefer that the list be fairly inclusive, with the individual details appearing in the individual articles.  But the name of the page will remain an issue.  I also think we should create a category for these villages, and the name of that category will be another conflict. :) Zerotalk 00:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Perhaps "Sofsafe-Ain-Sheika" actually refers to two separate villages? Sofsafe may be Safsaf. Ain Sheika? I don't know. It could be a bastardization of 'Ain Sakhina. But it needs more research. Tiamuttalk 18:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The 1922 census lists "Al Sufsafeh" under "Tribal areas, subdistrict of Haifa", but I can't see anything that looks like Ain Sheika. The way the Shaw table is laid out seems to indicate these should be close to Mahloul which I think is Malul in SWP 5,Mi. Just to the east of Malul (close to Nazareth) SWP shows a watercourse 'Ain es Sufsafeh.  SWP 5,Mi has a watercourse (no village) Ain Esh Sheikhah between Jebata and Jeida, seems very close to Ramat David. Zerotalk 23:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Another useful and detailed source is The Jewish National Fund by Walter Lehn with Uri Davis, Kegan Paul International 1988. The appendices include some 50 pages which I translated from the memoirs of JNF agents Musa Goldenberg and Joseph Nahmani, detailing the various methods by which the lands of particular villages were acquired, and the populations removed. As far as I know, the books themselves have never been translated into English; but for Hebrew speakers (does that include you, Tiamut?) they are very useful sources. RolandR 17:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: I think both articles should be deleted because they contribute nothing but conflict. There is no way these articles can be made NPOV and their existence is dubious (what other conflict has a list of "depopulated" villages?). Further, there is very little sourcing on both pages and there is still much debate over who did what, where and when. It is also unclear if the articles refer to "forced" depopulation or if the populations merely fled or just left. Metallurgist (talk) 00:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete both articles 

message: Thanks for your edits, but you must provide a source for your claim. Your drive-by taggings are therefore removed. We already have a source claiming that these places were depopulated  before 1948. As already clear from the article the historical record may not be as straightforward as we would hope. Any additional information on this subject is welcome. Please feel free to contribute. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 22:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Bazonka's recent edits

message: So the name has been changed. We now have parity because every Jewish or Israeli illage settlement that has been depopulated is registered on the page, while the over 400 Palestinian villages destroyed as a result of 1948 are 'evaporated', all being shifted to a main page. Thus we have the counter-factual appearance of balanced losses. There is not even a selection of the major villages that have wikilinked articles. Very nice. Nishidani (talk) 09:07, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two options: Either the name is changed or the material referencing a different time frame, outside the scope of the article, is removed. In either case, the only thing that evaporates is historical distortion and anachronism. I would suggest merging the so-called "main page" with this one - there is no reason for two "lists" that duplicate the same material.--Geewhiz (talk) 08:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change article problem 

message: Gilabrand is repeatedly deleting the list of villages depopulated pre-1948 as a result of the Zionist immigration.  The only justification I can think of is that "Arab-Israeli conflict" only started when Israel started.  Pedantically that is true, but it isn't the usual way the phrase is used.  In fact I wonder if there is any book at all on "the Arab-Israeli conflict" that doesn't start in 1882 or earlier.  At the very most, this is a problem with the page title.  There is no reason whatever that Wikipedia should not list those villages.  Choices: (1) a separate article, with a link to it in this article. (2) in this article with a title change to cover it. (3) in this article with the present title.  Please give your opinions.  I prefer (3). Zerotalk 11:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: All the relevant data should be one one page. Gilabrand appears to agree with this. If there is some fixation with the idea that 'Arab-Israeli' implies only 1948 (or 1947) onwards, then that is solved by simply writing 'Arab-Zionist conflict'. Though Zionism is not a dirty word in Israel, to the contrary, a lot of editors there dislike it on wikipedia. But this change would cover 1882-2014 (the practice is still going on:12 khirbehs are up for demolition in the South Hebron Hills). The simplest solution is (3), involving the reintroduction of (a) all pre-1947/8 depopulated villages and (b) the list of Palestinian villages forked off wrongly to a separate page. Nishidani (talk) 13:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

text: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It started before 1948 and the name doesn't change that. We have an article named Israeli–Palestinian conflict which covers the whole period, as it should be. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-1948 villages 

message: I removed  from "Shatah, unknown date (Beit HaShita)", and a couple of others. However, Debresser reintroduced the cn-tags. I would argue that it is completely unnecessary...read the story of Beit HaShita, and it is all there. It is basically impossible to "cite", as it was emptied of its Palestinian  population over a period of time.....same as with Afula, Kiryat Ata, etc. The Elyashiv data is also now in the article  (will be updated with the 1945 data, eventually) So why on earth put cn-tags? Seriously, is this reasonable? Huldra (talk) 22:42, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If the Beit HaShita article provides sources for Shatah and others, then please cite those sources here as well. You know well enough that WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Debresser (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? Have you read the articles I mentioned above? Do you want me to list the 1922, 1931, & 1945 data for each and every article here? Huldra (talk) 23:33, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps I do not understand you? I think that it can reasonably be expected that 1 source be provided for every village in this list that indeed it was depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict. That is all I asked for. Debresser (talk) 18:32, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I´m afraid you cannot demand *one* source for each and every village. As with Beit HaShita, you could get 3 sources (1922, 1931 and 1945-data)...but, firstly, if you want that (all 3 sources)  the article will be very messy, for a start (though that might not concern you?) Secondly, I don´t think you have a right to make that demand....not when the sources are in the target article, say Beit HaShita. Huldra (talk) 23:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Although in general Wikipedia articles should be sourced independently of each other, which is a good thing, it isn't clear that the rule always applies to articles that are just lists. If you look at articles whose names start with "List of.." very many of them don't have a citation on each list item.  Perhaps this should be clarified on some policy page. Zerotalk 00:38, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

text:  @ Huldra References are nice and small, not messy. Thing is like this, unsourced information can be removed at any time. Is that what you want? Debresser (talk) 12:51, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @ Debresser  Well, what I would really like is some equal standards....that all, say Israel, or Jewish-related lists had the same sourcing standards that you demand here. (I would also have liked to see some more of the pro-Israeli editors here actually edit Israeli or Jewish -related articles: most of those articles are absolutely totally shitty. Seriously: many with not a single source.) Say, what if I demanded the same standard of List of West European Jews, List of Scottish Jews, List of European Jewish nobility, List of Jews in religion, List of Jewish Kabbalists, List of rosh yeshivas and  List of Jewish mysticism scholars, as you demand for this list, just for  a start? Would you like that? Huldra (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  @Huldra I am here now. I don't much care for insinuations as though I hold a double standard. Debresser (talk) 15:36, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @ Debresser  Have you looked at any of the above links? Can you see anyone demanding the standards you are demanding here? And no, it did not take me long to find those lists... virtually  all of the List of something Jewish are  like that. Not that this surprises me. Years ago,  I edited Cinema of Palestine.. one user (User:Einsteindonut) challenged each and every statement there, and removed those he did not like. *Everything* which was not impeccably sourced went out.  For the hell of it, I went over to Cinema of Israel and wrote  for each unsourced statement. You know what? Those  unsourced statement are still there...and still unsourced....after more than 6 years. I repeat: I would really like  to see some more of the pro-Israeli editors here actually edit Israeli or Jewish -related articles: most of those articles are absolutely totally shitty.  Huldra (talk) 22:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This kind of disagreement is basically about proportionate sharing of a collective workload. A large number of editors revert, tag or put in a cn notice when, in a blink, they could check by googling if other sources are available. Those who just drive-by don't work, they create work for others. In trhe present case, what courteousness would require if there is a suspicion, is to take three villages at random, check each against the given census sources, and if you find one or more inexact, then demand that the original editor review them. If one has no grounds that a slip up  has occurred, one is only bothering a page. Nishidani (talk) 09:15, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Huldra and Nishidani I do understand the point that 1. it is frustrating to have so much information challenged, and 2. not all information is equally challenged. Nevertheless, once information is challenged, for whatever reason, it should be sourced. I have no problem with keeping the tags a long time (I generally do not believe in removing unsourced information within days weeks or months, rather years), but removing the tags is not something that can be done (unless you can show e.g. that it was drive-by tagging from an one-purpose IP). I don't see reasons for Huldra's frustration, after all, a tag is not a badge of shame, but a call for input. Debresser (talk) 12:23, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Debresser, I do not mind the general cn-tags...they show me which articles which needs edit, and which do not. What I do mind, is when you re-add the cn-tag to articles like above mentioned Beit HaShita, when it is very clear, clicking on the Beit HaShita-article that it is well-sourced. And it is not only you require higher standards for Palestinian that Israeli info....in this article you don´t seem to care one bit that the depopulated Jewish villages is mostly completely unsourced! I have e.g.. looked for sources saying Kiryat Ata was depopulated in 1929...  that is actually totally unsourced (not in the source given in the article), just as one example.  I repeat again: I would really like  to see some more of the pro-Israeli editors here actually edit Israeli or Jewish -related articles: most of those articles are absolutely totally shitty  Huldra (talk) 16:18, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Should not     Mulebbis be here, somewhere?  Huldra (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mulebbis]]? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Propose to merge Population displacements in Israel after 1948 -> List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict
The source article is an overlapping topic of merely 4.6kb and is not likely to grow. Better be merged here.GreyShark (dibra) 09:43, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that, except for a few localities that are already here, most of the localities in the other article do not satisfy the criteria for this article. Zerotalk 12:30, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

text: Id oppose, this list has a pretty clear criteria and as a subject is treated as its own in reliable sources. nableezy - 17:08, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

text: Absolutely oppose. Seth J. Frantzman started the Population displacements in Israel after 1948 article back in 2009; to me it looks as if it is (was) filled with his OR.  I strongly oppose merging the Frantzman mess into this article: they  cover two different topics, Huldra (talk) 21:50, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: "Zamarin, unknown date (Zichron Yaacov)" -- the date is 1882, ref: https://books.google.com/books?id=alVBAAAAIAAJ&q=1882 quote: 
Please also amend the name to Zikhron Ya'akov, according to WP:HEBREW. --Crash48 (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Run n Fly (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  many thanks for inserting the ref, please also insert the cited date (1882) instead of "unknown date" --Crash48 (talk) 18:21, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Done Run n Fly (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 May 2021