Talk:Khan Noonien Singh

message: Is this link worth putting in the article? http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Khan
It is a fan site but does talk about the Cox books. --FeanorStar7 (talk) 21:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Memory Beta article

message: The Gazette link should be disambiguated. Art LaPella (talk) 16:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Art LaPella (talk) 19:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Gazette 

message: I noticed the similarity between the names Khan Noonien Singh and Dr. Noonien Soong, the creator of Data and several other androids.  Neither the article on Khan nor the article on Dr. Soong seem to discuss any connection between the two characters, although the article on Soong has a link to the Khan article.  Is there a connection, and if so, should it be explained in the article? - Mark Dixon (talk) 14:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Gene Rodennbery's 2nd World War Indian pilot mate Kim Noonien Singh in the explanation for this.SH 14:52, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Be aware when you say that Kim Noonien Singh is "Indian" that some editors think "to just use the term 'Indian' is not precise, it's lazy, and quite insulting." Oh wait. That was you. Never mind. 99.192.85.205 (talk) 17:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

text: As a lecturer and writer of many papers on Indian History I would be very surprised if the average Wikipedian actually understood the finer points of Nationalism on the Indian sub-continent and mistook it for WP:LAWYER. Then again I just don't get why the some Scots don't like being called British!! (I'm being sarcastic, incase you didn't get it) Thanks SH 09:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name similarity to Dr. Noonien Soong? 

message: In all the discussions this character has generated, has no one commented that Ricardo Montalban looks nothing like a Sikh?  I would have expected this to generate nearly as much controversy as if Sir Laurence Olivier had played Martin Luther King in blackface... Paul Magnussen (talk) 21:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well he does have long hair.. kinda. And his skin is slightly darker. And it IS an alternate universe where all Siks look like Kahn. --68.41.80.161 (talk) 00:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the main point is, that it is never revealed whether he is a Sikh or not. Although McGivers says so, it is only a guess by watching him while in stasis. Khan's true ancestry remains unknown. Besides the fact that he is genetically engineered and could as well have green skin and four ears. The fact that his first name is Khan indicates that he is rather not a Sikh. I believe the scriptwriters kept it that vague deliberately. The wiki article is correct by only mentioning that he is Indian. --Robinandroid (talk) 10:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Just like the diverse group of Khans crew, Khan himself was a mix of races, perhaps the end result if all the races mixed.
-G  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.114.171 (talk) 08:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

text: This is what I mean by the ignorance displayed by some of our European Wikipedian. Sikhs, are Indo-Aryans, and therefore tend to have wheatish complections that reflect their origins from the Black Sea Area (Scythians). Here  is an image of a typical Sikh Warrior. Hardly a blacked up Sir Lawerence Olivier. You guys are experienced editor and should know better than to fall into the stereotypical media nonsense. Thanks SH 13:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sikh? 

message: Second picture down, the caption.  Doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me.  Why should we be paying special attention?  Maybe something like "The director chose Khan's revealing outfit because (reason 1), and (reason 2). (24.131.254.74 (talk) 14:13, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You would nead a source for that claim ("reason 1 and reason 2") before you can add it in. iagree that we should drop the "pay special attention" bit. User:Smith Jones 20:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Pay Special Attention"?

message: I've edited the reference to script girl to be the more accurate script supervisor. For the reasoning, one need look no farther than Wikipedia's own entry about "script supervisor." XofWiki (talk)
:That's the term the actor used. And the wikipedia article is a bunch of unsourced garbage, so I wouldn't reference it for anything. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In the classic Hollywood studio days, they were lowly-paid individuals well-down in the studio hierarchy (i.e. without any authority at all -- at most they could remind the director of potential problems), and overwhelmingly female, so "script girl" was more accurate at that time than "script supervisor".  Not sure about 1982... AnonMoos (talk) 11:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "Script Girl"

message: So what's the situation with sourcing, here? We have a line in the original 1967 TV script where a character looks at Khan and says that he is "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh.", and then nothing until a 2003 spin-off novel where Greg Cox fleshes that line out to have Khan proudly talking about his "Sikh ancestors", followed by a 2006 "supervillain book" where he's listed as being "a Sikh born in India's Punjab region", and a 2012 blog entry (which I think fails WP:RS) that calls him a "Sikh superman"?
We should be careful about using spin-off novels and fan encyclopaedias as sources for facts which aren't mentioned in the main television and film series; the bulk of the article is talking about Khan's appearance and reception on television and in film. (If another spin-off novel revealed that Khan was secretly a robot, it would be confusing to open the article by talking about Khan being a robot.) When we say "Khan appears as a North Indian Sikh who is both admired and reviled by the Enterprise crew." we are implying that this is how he appears in the TV show, which seems misleading.
We have a clear primary source where the 1967 TV script has a character describe him as appearing to be "from the northern India area" and "probably a Sikh". The first half is strong enough to say that he "appears as an Indian" the lede, but given that the second is only a "probably", I think it's better left in context in the body of the article. --McGeddon (talk) 09:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, lets be exact then. Lets say "North Indian" as per the first series and quote "probably a Sikh". Alternately, have the decription a;ong the lines "Greg Cox" in later novels describes him as a Sikh. As a Trekkie and Sikh (convert) I think this explains a lot of his charachteristics, which the Augmentation have exagerated. He can be brave yet arrogant. Charming yet insulting. I just want a bit more meat on the bone. Saying Indian is like saying European. India after all is just a colelction of 30 odd nations with different languages. In appearance Indians look different. For example, the further South you go the more Aboriginal they look. The further North, the more European looking. That would explain Khan's appearance as well. Thanks SH 11:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest that the mistake here is to assume that there is a correct and consistent answer or trying to define what counts as "canon". Why try to come up with some definitive decision about his heritage when you can just say that in the TV series he was depicted as X, in a spin-off novel he is depicted as Y, in a cast interview the actor said he played him as Z? This is a real world encyclopedic article, not a in-world fan article and there is no reason to assume the different sources will be logically consistent nor should we try to make them so. GDallimore (Talk) 13:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Ok from what I understand and from watching the episode yesterday, Khan is directly refered to as "North Indian" and then "a Sikh" followed by some talk of them being warriors, and then the shot cuts to a picture of him wearing a turban as here and here is the quote MARLA: From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors.. The way I look at it, Greg Cox is just building on what is stated in the original script and just going into his background. I'd like to also point out  www.hollywood.com is not a blog. It's a reporting website and therefore does not fail WP:RS. I can't see how this "Khan appears as a North Indian Sikh who is both admired and reviled by the Enterprise crew" is misleading based on what I've already stated. We may need to tweak the words to say something like "Khans charachter is North Indian, probably Sikh. Geg Cox in later novel charachterises Khan as a Sikh blah blah blah. Thanks SH 14:21, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Get the basics correct then. Possibly "northern India area" , not Indian. India is much like Europe, a collection of countries like Europe thrust into a Union. Distinct languages and people. The two dominant races being the Dravidian (in the South of India) and the Indo-Aryan's of Northern India. Khan's image is probably based on the latter. Thanks SH 10:59, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Ok are we going around in circles here? On the one hand people are saying we should be encyclopaedic, and others are saying original research (which I accept) on the other hand we are saying we should not be too encyclopaedic? All I'm saying is be accurate and relect what the series said. The example I would use is describing Napoleon as European rather than French. It would not be accurate. The accurate description for Khan is Northern Indian as used in the series. All I'm saying is Indian is NOT an accurate description and NOT one used in the original episode. So going back to "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources.". Indian is not reliable, or published. northern Indian is reliable and published. The same could be said of "probably a Sikh". I think this meets WP:Reliable, WP:Balance as well as WP:NPOV  Thanks SH 13:34, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we're going in circles - I was talking about the lead section there. Quoting the 1967 "probably Sikh" script in context in the body of the article is absolutely fine, but I think "from Northern India, probably Sikh" is unnecessary detail for the lead section - by focusing on it, we're making it sound like it was a defining aspect of Khan's TV and film incarnations, when it only seems to have been mentioned in passing once. --McGeddon (talk) 13:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you mean, but for someone skimming through and looking for the basic information don't you think the lead summarises everything stated below quickly? A chap was reading it in the office today and in the lead he got all the relevant information, without having to read the whole thing. Thanks SH 18:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It definitely summarises it, I'm just concerned that we're giving undue weight to one relatively unexplored aspect of his character. By describing Khan as "Northern Indian, probably Sikh" in a two-paragraph summary, we're suggesting that both the TV series and the remainder of the article will have more to say about this. When in fact all that the article and the entire TV/film series have to say is (so far as given sources suggest) literally just the four words "northern India" and "probably Sikh". --McGeddon (talk) 18:44, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Oh I see, it maybe viewed as WP:UNDUE. I've read it a few times now, and I think the one mention refers directly to his charachterisation mentioned later on below.SH 13:05, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing for "Sikh" 

message: This is the sort of annoying goof (to those who understand the Indian culture). Jeffery Archer, the British novelist,made the same stupid error when he named a short-story character of his Anil Khan. He cleverly took first name of Anil Kapoor and the last of Salman Khan and thought he has created libel-safe name for a fictional cop.
But the idiot didn't know was that Anil is essentially a Hindu name and
one named thus can never be a Muslim, which a person with second name as Khan is sure to be !  
The same blunder is repeated here : A Singh is always a Sikh. Though a gurkha, a rajput(hindu) or even a bania(in very rare cases) might be a Singh. But a Muslim can
never be a Singh, and a Khan cannot be a Sikh( or a hindu )!124.253.202.166 (talk) 07:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Alas I come accross this sort of error in many articles, usually written by Western Europeans (see I'm generalising now), aboutb people from India. What they fail to grasp is that India has 40 different languages. Different scripts, and alaphabets. Each state in India was a country at some point. The people look different in appearance from State to State. I do hope some of the editors educate themselves further on this, and in the process make Wikipedia better than the normal stereo-typical dross that passes off as encyclopaedic. Thanks SH 15:55, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all the more reason for Wikipedia to be careful about taking a single line of in-character dialogue ("From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh.") and presenting it as "Khan is a genetically engineered superhuman from northern India... ancestry was changed to Sikh in script revisions". There's a difference between a character saying something vaguely and mistakenly, and the show's writers and directors making that same mistake explicitly in script directions and interviews. --McGeddon (talk) 16:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: McGeddon I don't think the Sikh thing is an issue. You convinced me with some excellent points as to why it should not be included in the summary. I added a link to North India, and it was removed, and India added again? I thought the reason for moving was pathetic. On a side note, because I know the history of the Khalsa and Sikhs, I can see the paralleles and the inspiration that the writers had for Khan Singh. That thinking that one man is able to take on the multitude nature, is an extension of the Sikh attitude "Sava Lakh Se Ekh Laraaoon" (One can fight and challenge 700,000). i.e. one man (a Sikh) is in effect a Superman and Superhuman. I'd say a perfect candidate for Eugenics. There are many other sayings that have parallels.Thanks SH 11:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

text: I know what "sava lakh se laraaon means" whether it is 125,000 or 700,000 really is irrelevant. The point is one can take on multitudes. The Sufi tradition uses such metaphors as well. What gets me is people don't understand the title Khan. Khan also exists as a title or name amongst Sikhs for example Kahn Singh Nabha. It's not so much ignorance (although that is part of it) it's the Euro-centricity of Wikipedia. For example if Khan's name was Smith Brown, people would immediatly say it's obvious what Smith and Brown means and origins. They get confused with anything East of Baghdad. Thanks SH 15:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The Usual Blunder

message: Hi all, are there any WP:Reliable references to what Khan Noonien means? I have done some research and Khan Noon would mean "The Law". Khan Noonien or Khan Noonie would mean "Abider of Law". Anyone else find anything on this? Thanks SH 15:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khan Noonien Name Meaning 

message: This article may need to undergo FAR considering that at least a third of the sections are missing some very important citations. Especially the Star Trek Into Darkness and Novel section. I have added  where required to meet the minimum. I certainly think there's an opportunity to fix the article before the film comes out, otherwise this should in fairness be going to a FAR considering the seriousness of the issues at hand. Mkdwtalk 05:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Citation needed where Khan's the bad guy in the film? Can't we just cite the film? Do you need a script or a screen capture? 132.185.161.96 (talk) 12:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAR 

message: The Klingon homeworld is still called Kronos at this point in the alternate timeline, it is shown onscreen. Yes the actual name is Qu'onoS in Klingonese, but the federation did not use that spelling until after the events of Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country.
See the talk page of Into Darkness for further information. Colliric (talk) 07:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  In STID, it is still spelt Kronos by Starfleet at that point in the timeline 

message: The reference to the Nietzschian Übermensch is completely wrong. Nietzsche's Overman has NOTHING to do with being physically or mentally superior to other humans. That's a nazi/fascist concept that Nietzsche was not eluding to. The Nietzschian Overman actually 'rises above himself'. Thus, for example, Superman, Batman or Khan, are NOT overmen. Super heroes and villains never 'rise above themselves', but remain limited by their birth circumstance. Please remove this mistaken and wrong reference to the Nietzschian overman. In contrast, Kubrik's post-human "Starchild" from Space odyssee 2001 might be regarded as "Overman", but that again has nothing to do with physical/mental superiority over other humans. The Overman conquers himself, not others. You have completely misunderstood Nietzsche.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.56.78.118 (talk) 08:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "Übermensch" completely misunderstood

message: Okay, so I understand that in Star Trek Into Darkness the characters spell and speak the name of the Klingon homeworld as "Kronos". However, as the Klingon language exists in real life and since this page describes material from multiple Star Trek works not only Star Trek Into Darkness, is it wrong to write "Qo'noS" since we know "Kronos" to be something of a production inaccuracy? Transphasic (talk) 17:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: We're only talking about the character's appearance in this one work. It doesn't make much sense to presuppose any further intent--besides, "Kronos" is according to Okrand merely the anglicized spelling of Qo'noS, and it was referred to as "Kronos" throughout much of the DS9 run. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qo'noS/Kronos spelling issue. 

message: I saw the section, saw that it needed a some work, and edited it to look a bit more presentable.  Then, looking at the page history, I realized that the section was only added today (hours before I edited it), and I began questioning the section's necessity.  I'd be OK with keeping it, but if the consensus is to remove, that's OK too (Editor for years, new to this article).  Any thoughts? --MattMauler (talk) 19:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is full of nonsense (he never even meets Romulans), and reads more like a section that belongs in a fan wiki about a comic book character than anything that should be in a featured article. I've removed it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 15:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: New "Powers and Abilities" section

message: Surely a still from the actual film or a poster clipping or the like would meet WP:FAIRUSE for this article? A photo of Cumberbatch in a suit jacket and tie with a different hair colour, from what I suspect may have been before he was even cast as the character, seems somewhat irrelevant. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: His appearance is not substantially different from the film portrayal, and we have nothing in the way of sources discussing elements of his costuming, etc. to merit such inclusion. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 16:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of Cumberbatch? 

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