Talk:Plug Uglies

message: I have read most of the books now listed on this entry, and many more. None of them that I have read list any primary sources showing the Plug Uglies in New York. Without any primary sources, where is the evidence that the Plug Uglies existed in New York?
As noted above, because of the frequent mention of the Plug Uglies in New York, I long assumed that they existed. However, contemporary accounts of the origins of the Baltimore Plug Uglies name, published in the 1870s, (discussed in the book) did not mention any New York gang. I began to look back through the secondary sources and realized that they all traced to Herbert Asbury's Gangs of New York. Because I wanted to get things right, I ended up making an extensive search for the New York gang but could not find any contemporary evidence. Sources consulted:
--Read dozens of books on nineteenth-century gangs and violence generally. None offered contemporary citations on the Plug Uglies.
--Extensively sampled, really read, New York newspapers for key periods (i.e. election campaigns) from 1830s-1850s and found zero references to Plug Uglies. Dead Rabbits yes, Plug Uglies no.
--Used the online New York Times to keyword search Plug Ugly and Plug Uglies. I found numerous references to the Baltimore Plug Uglies, zero to New York Plug Uglies. This search tool allows for an essentially comprehensive search of all articles in this New York paper for the entire period during the nineteenth century when the paper was published. Why does it make no references to New York Plug Uglies?
--Searched the American Memory page on the Library of Congress website. Again lots of references to Baltimore Plug Uglies in the nineteenth century, zero to the New York Plug Uglies.
--Have several times "googled" Plug Uglies and followed every gang reference under this name. Again, zero contemporary references to New York Plug Uglies.
[On this point, I note that four websites are now listed in the entry. Three simply repeat the uncited description offered by Herbert Asbury in Gangs of New York. The other, The Legend of Old Smoke Morissey incorrectly lists Baltimore gangs (Plug Uglies, Tigers, Black Snakes, Rip Raps, Hard Timers Embolts [Eubolts], Screwbolts etc.) as New York gangs. I have numerous sources, dozens of them cited in the book, showing that these also were Baltimore gangs. All of them in fact appear in published contested congressional election testimony from Baltimore during this period. The Rip Raps and Tigers are discussed extensively in my book. The description of the death of one member of the Black Snakes [Charles Nally] also appears. It is of course extremely unlikely that gangs with precisely the same names as those in Baltimore also operated in New York. Someone again got hold of a list of Baltimore gangs and inserted them into the true New York story. I assume someone other than the author of this article since I have seen this mistake repeated several times. I think this only further demonstrates how prevalent these mistakes are.] [I also note that two of the websites describe the New York Plug Uglies as an Irish gang [one that being Irish was required to be in the gang] but that another describes them as a nativist gang. How could they be both?]
--Checked index to George Templeton Strong's diary (edited by Allan Nevins). He mentions the Dead Rabbits but provides zero references to New York Plug Uglies.
--Oxford English Dictionary provides the earliest known literary references to words. Under Plug Uglies, all the earliest references (mid-1850s when gang was active) are to the Baltimore Plug Uglies, zero are to any New York Plug Uglies.
--Tyler Anbinder's excellent book Five Points, a long, exhaustive history of the very neighborhood where the New York Plug Uglies supposedly dominated makes no mention of them. And the book does extensively discuss crime and violence in the neighborhood during the period when Asbury places them there. Why didn't Anbinder find any Plug Uglies?
--Again, Baltimore Sun published a lengthy discussion of the origins of the name of the gang. It made no reference to any New York Plug Uglies. New York gangs did appear periodically in the newspaper's accounts so it was not a matter of ignorance.
So, I have made a very diligent search for primary sources that would show that there were Plug Uglies in New York but have never been able to find a single contemporary source. Unless at least one solid contemporary source can be cited, I think the conclusion has to be that writers, working in good faith, have unintentionally been repeating Asbury's error.
I have even offered a very plausible explanation for Asbury's error. On the very days (June 2-4, 1857) that national newspapers were publishing stories of a large Dead Rabbits riots (the Police Riots mentioned) in New York (something he obviously read for the book), they were also publishing accounts of a deadly riot in Washington involving the (Baltimore) Plug Uglies. He apparently then put them in New York.
You have a great knowledge of the literature on gangs and violence in the nineteenth century. Do any of the books offer any contemporary evidence for the New York Plug Uglies? I would certainly be anxious to know if they did. I could use it to build an understanding of a kindred group to one that I have spent several years researching, thinking about, and writing about. But,
Unless contemporary evidence of a New York gang can be offered, this entry should reflect what the sources show us. The same mistake repeated numerous times is still a mistake. People looking up this gang should be able to expect accurate info. Previously we all thought that the Plug Uglies were a New York gang. But now we have evidence that they were not. Of course, I think the entry should also discuss clearly this matter (something that my original entry did in too cursory a manner) so that readers who know the Asbury account will be clear on how the myth of the New York Plug Uglies came about.
On the questions about nativist gangs, there were certainly nativists in the city. Butcher Bill (Daniel Day Lewis's character) in Scorsese's Gangs of New York was an enormously popular figure among New York nativists.  See Elliott Gorn's excellent essay, "Good-bye Boys, I die a true American:" Homicide, Nativism, and Working-Class Culture in Antebellum New York City," Journal of American History vol. 74 (September 1987). They just weren't Plug Uglies.
This discussion is not only informative but is what makes history fun and interesting. Tracy Matthew Melton
:Mr. Melton, 
::Again my apologies for the lateness of my reply (a I had though this specific page was on my watchlist). You certainly present an overwhelming amount of evidence, much of which is hard to ignore. Interestingly enough, in adding details from Herbert Asbury's The Gangs of New York from the most recent update, I notice several inconsistencies as well. The most glaring of which, if you own or have access to the book, lists the gang as Plug Uglies, the, Bowery gang (pg. 364 of the index) yet on all referenced pages this is contradicted as the gang is stated as one of the early gangs of the Five Points (pg. 20-21). I've gone through Gangs of New York very carefully however specific information on the gang seems to be vague with the only verifiable information regarding their participation in attacking the Bowery Boys/Atlantic Guard hangout during the Police Strike of 1857 (pg. 102) as well as one of the juvenile gangs (the Little Plug Uglies) observed by Rev. L.M. Pease in the 1850s (pg. 221). Interestingly enough the gang is described as "gigantic Irishmen" on (pg. 21) although indicates the less criminal gangs of the Bowery section whose "membership was principally Irish" (which may further confuse matters on which district the Plug Uglies are claimed to be from). While it appears the Plug Uglies were allied with the Dead Rabbits, "who waged a bitter feud" against the Bowery Boys (pg. 27) during the 1850s, this is contradicted by Roger Touhy's article. 
Unfortunately, with the exception of Gangs of New York, my references are limited to Jay Robert Nash's "Encyclopedia of World Crime" series (from which the majority of the "further reading" section is cited from). While this certainly has become an intriguing topic, you may wish to check your information with Roger Touhy (or even Allen May) and the official Herbert Asbury website. The problem I see is there are equally qualified sources online (and certainly more knowledgeable on the subject then I) which should at least have the opportunity to verify the information before considering changing the article to reflect your research. On a separate note, I do apologize for the slow response as well as the original misunderstanding (which after viewing the questionable history of the IP address, I had assumed would have been similar to the Slobbery Jim situation several months ago. I have enjoyed this discussion and I certainly hope to see more of your contributions in the future. 
Also the existence of other Plug Uglies, is referenced at . MadMax 00:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Lack of Evidence of the Plug Uglies as a New York gang: 

message: Greetings. If the Plug Uglies was a Baltimore Gang (and I believe they are) why is it still listed under  Historical gangs of New York City category even after other more reliable sources prove they're from Baltimore? I’d delete it from that category but I’m not from New York area or Baltimore and I’m not a full expert on Asbury’s books but I am interested in this era. Thanks.--Pilot expert 10:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical gangs of New York City Category? 

message: I've placed a "tone" tag on this article, as it is unencyclopedic in its intent to "debunk" the view that this gang was a New York gang. Right or wrong, it has turned this article into something of an advocacy piece. It actually referred readers to this discussion page! WTF? Coretheapple (talk) 21:59, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Tone

message: This article contained enormous amounts of original research that I have removed. It was basically structured as a "response to Asbury," and such a response or contradiction belongs in this article only if someone other than Wikipedia editors have raised the point in reliable secondary sources. Coretheapple (talk) 16:14, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research

message: Fyi, New Yorkers Have Been Illicitly Cracking Open Fire Hydrants For Centuries, by Dan Nosowitz / 30 Jul 2015, says in passing:  Water mains, which were only accessible by the rich, ran in limited numbers underneath the city, made mostly of hollowed-out logs. If a fire department needed water, they’d drill a hole in the pipe, take what they needed, and then leave a cylindrical wooden “fireplug” in the hole they’d just made. (Most cities, including New York, had competing fire departments in the 1700s. Whoever actually put out the fire would get paid, so the departments would have their biggest, toughest guys guard their plugs to stop other companies from tapping their holes. That’s where the term “plug uglies” comes from.). 98.216.110.49 (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of phrase, or a more generic usage?