Talk:Turkey/Archive 4

message: Hi...  The history section of Turkey is very brief.  There is discussion of the ottoman empire and neolightic period, but the pressence of the Roman Empire is completly ignored, as well as the role of christianity previous to the ottoman empire...  The history of this country is so rich, the section on history here certainly needs to be expanded....
---
Isn't it a little bit odd that there's no mention of the Armenian Genocide in the history section. I can't imagine an overview of the History of Germany which didn't mention the Holocaust and link to it. Are people just afraid of starting an edit war with Turkish nationalists, or is there some other reason it's not mentioned?
**I agree 100%. Most countries appear to recognise that a genocide occured. 
** Most countries DO NOT. Only a few do and they do it because of the presence of armenian lobbies , politicians greedy for armenian votes and hatred for Turks. The terrorist state Southern cyprus recognises armenian claims. just how surprising is that ?
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*Thats because the Armenians have strong Armenian lobbies that persuades (lies to) the governments in these countries about the "genocide". The Turkish lobbies are not as strong, however, they need to be because it is immoral for the Armenians to change history and claim their was a "genocide" when in fact there wasn't. There is strong Armenian propaganda against Turks for the reasons as stated below.
** Oh, the same way as Jewish Holocaust deniers claim that Jewish lobbies lies to governments in other countries about the "Holocaust"?Kuifjeenbobbie 10:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey's History 

message: It has come to my attention that there is a concerted effort by a group of very motivated editors to portray Turkey and Turks in much of a negative light as possible.This is evident by the horrible bias reflected in many of the pages involving turkey. If there any people from turkey reading this talk page, I ask you to sign up on wikipedia immediately and help us counter the hatred being focussed.
: Dear anonymous: looks like an unsubstantiated excuse for vandalism and censorship! i've seen many cases where objective and relevant facts were cut out, and that without any decent explanations, let alone authoritative external sources and references.  I'm very much considering spending again some time overhere. --Rudi Dierick 22:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice 

message: Can someone add about Turkey's Flora & Fauna?
I have tried several time but I don't know how to add the referance there and removed it.
I understand your view about the necessity of such a section, but the text you added seems to be directly lifted from       here and would therefore constitute a copyright violation unless we can get confirmation of its copyright status (that allows usage of it on wikipedia). Regards--Kilhan 17:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you mean reference as in citation, add < ref > add source here< /ref > (without spaces) after the text you wish to reference. The text will automatically appear in the references section at the bottom of the page. --A.Garnet 18:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flora & Fauna 

message: * country name
* history
* politics
* military
* area
* geography
* economy
* traffic
* national (people)
* education
* culture
* sports
* See also
* external links
 --Suisui 23:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections of ja:トルコ (Turkey) 

message: I'm aware that it's Turkey's tallest mountain, but what's wrong with having images of Pamukkale instead? This is a section on geography, not mountains. —Khoikhoi 04:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mountains are part of geography, it is Turkey's tallest peak, and the image is good and clear - that is why it is there. I do not understand Clevelanders unexplained deletion of it, i could assume bad faith and cite the usual Armenian claims to it, but i hope that is not the case. --A.Garnet 12:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, Mt. Ararat is Turkey's highest peak, but I think its best to stay out of divisive things such as these although there is a strong context for inclusion in this case. It just causes too much conflict and invokes emotions thats really unnecessary above anything else. Similarly, the image of ararat in the Armenia article should be taken off and replaced woth something more appropriate. Its a real shame that all wowturkey.com images were deleted because I have this really nice image of Antalya's med coastline in mind that would look terrific in that section.--Kilhan 09:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is Kilhan, when i put this image, i did not even think of the political situation with Armenians, nor should i have. It is simply a mountain that is part of Turkey's geography, there is absoloutely no reason for its removal whatsoever. --A.Garnet 09:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ararat 

message: I think it's wrong to put "ottoman empire at its height in 1600s" map into the article. It'll be taken wrong by wiki users that they'll think that modern Turkey is a diminished, little Ottoman empire.
When you enter "United Kingdom" page, yes, there is a map that shows old UK maps of British empire, ruling most of the world. And yes, UK is the same UK as it was 200 years ago. It was a large empire; now it's small. It's still a monarchy. But when you enter France's page, there's no French map showing a large french empire. Because French empire doesn't exist: you should check french empire pages for that..
Remove Ottoman map from history section. It's right place is "History of Turkey"...
--JohnEmerald 22:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A paragraph on Ottoman history certainly belongs, but the map is inconsistent with similar material elsewhere. It should be removed. Valentinian (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ottoman Emp. Map? 

message: User:Kilhan, how can you dismiss EU membership as, “Leave all that to the detailed article. There is only so much we can devote to this. There is a lot more to Turkey than some membership in a regional bloc)”.  The emphasis is mine, but you are reverting important and sourced information. Namely:
Turkey's main political, economic and military relations remain rooted within Western Europe and the United States. An associate member of the European Union since 1964, Turkey is currently in the process of accession pending the completion of negotiations. A major source of tension in its EU aspirations is the reluctance of France, Germany and Austria whose voters are apprehensive about Turkey's accession ,, , , . There is also concern over its human rights record , including freedom of expression. Another, though lesser factor, is the issue of Cyprus, a member of the EU which Turkey does not recognise, but instead supports the de facto independent  Turkish Cypriot north. Supporters of its membership point out that it acts as a bridge beween the West and the Islamic east. Based on what it views as lukewarm support for its accesion to the EU, and alleged double standards in its negotiations, the Turkish public has become increasingly euroskeptic in recent times. A mid-2006 Eurobarometer survey revealed that 43% of Turkish citizens view the EU positively; just 35% trust the EU, 45% support enlargement and just 29% support an EU constitution New Eurobarometer poll results show a drop in Turkish support for the EU Hurriyet' Sunday, July 09, 2006. Politis 18:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, all the Ottoman stuff and history about Ataturk has definetly no place. But the EU issue is too central in Turkey's current state to be dismissed so swiftly; especially when we have direct quotes from French leaders, the Austrian presidency and other EU countries. That makes it absolutely central. If you are concerned about the image of Turkey (and my impression is that you are happier to edit out seemingly unfavourable facts and to emphasise the grandeur of the Ottomans), then we can suplement the quotes with official British and American views. That would make good sense. But even though you have a point please try to reconsider your editing priorities. Politis 19:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I hear what you are saying, but the article as it stands is unbalanced. There is a special feature on Ataturk and the EU remains central to Turkey. Every country analyst, every Turk and most Europeans are aware of this. We have to revert and your skills can be exerted in other Turkish related articles. Politis 19:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but to say Cyprus is a lesser factor is completely wrong. It is the single most threatening obstacle to Turkey's accession. The enlargement commisioner Olli Rehn talked of a 'train crash' in negotiations specifically about the failure to resolve the Cyprus issue. --A.Garnet 08:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed, it is a bit strange that there is not even a link to the Armenian genocide article. There should be a way to insert a sentence in the WWI paragraph. Kusma (討論) 15:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried as a new editor 6-8 months ago to JUST have it listed under "See also" and was shot down. The owners of this article won't allow it so it isn't even worth trying. I think the arguement back then was it happened during the Ottoman period so it doesn't belong ANYWHERE in here or something. I see history going back before the creation of the current State, so why can't it go in there. Anyways, I am sure I'll get ripped a new one and really didn't want to come back here, but couldn't help myself :) Anyways, carry on..--Tom 15:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I dont think its notable enough to warrant a mention in the history section, especially when an event with massive ramifications such as WWI is summarised in just one sentence. Actually the whole genocide issue came up in relation to freedom of speech/freedom of the press in Turkey and has nothing to do with whether such an event occurred. This article as it is, is overlong and could use some major trimming especially the "foreign relations" and "economy' sections. The table showing the demographical indicators for turkey also doesnt seem to serve any purpose other than regurgitating the information already present in the article--Kilhan 15:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bizzare, if not POV editing

message: The fact that France and Austria have indicated they will hold referendums on Turkey's membership was mentionned as an indication of the suggested double standards against Turkey?. However, such referendums are part of the normal democratic process in those countries. referendums are held there for many other reasons, so this can not be mentionned as an indication for that lukewarm support. The support for Turkish accession to the EU is indeed very weak, but that's more a matter of lack of support among the populations from many current EU countries. If one wants to include double standards here, then (s)he should properly document that claim. --Rudi Dierick 21:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mixing up arguments 

message: Stating "The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular, constitutional republic" appears a gross, and unjustified simplification. There has been more then enough objective information provided in this and related articles that underline that this very general claim can not be seen as correct:
# widespread persecution and prosection of anyone criticising the Turkish nationalism;
# widespread discrimination of ethnic minorities and of other religions and other religious tendencies then Sunni Islam;
# Turkey's signature under the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam;
# excessive influence of the military.
Given the number and the severity of those non-democratic behaviour of the Turkish state, and because of its religious and ethnic discriminations, that should be reflected in the general description of the nature of the political institutions in Turkey. My proposal is to add a slight moderation by adding 'largely'; that results in: The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular, constitutional republic ...
--Rudi Dierick 21:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's say Turkey is a democratic, secular, constitutional republic in an EASTERN style. It's shape and colour cannot be like a western Germany or France. Democracy is not a computer  program that runs same on every computer; it's just something in people's brains, not in people's blood.. --JohnEmerald 22:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: John, Germany uses democracy for a shorter time that Turkey. Before that, they were also ruled by kings. Also, how many years passed since the France has an ideal democracy(they are trying since the end of the Napoleonic Wars). Of course we re-arrange things to fit the system to the nation. We love our traditions and in some ways, democracy can cause moral dilemmas for Turks. With respect, Deliogul 23:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's your full right to prefer to do thinbgs differently, but then accept also that we describe the 'Turksih' way of doing things as differently from 'our' (EU) style.  --Rudi Dierick 21:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oxidentialists.Hmph.And Democracy can run in every nation,provided it has the economical,social and political prerequisites for the exact process in which "Western" Democracies are evolved."it's just something in people's brains" I trust you are not thinking our nation as retarded?--88.247.96.210 07:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It is not POV to cite many public surveys on this subject that show that Turkish people trust the TAF more than any other institution.. This is not a political statement, there are many reasons for this. In any case, that claim is cited, whereas your claim wasn't. There are many articles relating to this issue, article about the country is not the ideological battleground for those... Again, I repeat, this is not a blog, pls cite your claims and try to insert them into the general flow of the article.. Pls don't imply that someone is not an open to discussion, this issue is being fervently debated in Turkey, so don't assume.. Lastly, nobody has claimed that TAF doesn't have any political influence... Baristarim 20:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Please don't confuse trust and not having reservations about too much interference.. That would be too much political correctness.. There are many reasons for that trust level, corruption of elected officials etc.. And let's not forget that this is not a blog.. Let's not forget that France also denies the Algerian Genocide and recently passed a resolution 'to confirm the positive role of colonialisation'.. That is no reason to go the article about France and add such comments.. The info given in the country article has to be concise, there are MANY articles that talk about the shortcomings of Turkey.. Lastly, democracy is not an absolute.. If you had been following the recent developments, you can see that this article is not about the Turkey of 70s.. Pls keep these things in mind.. Everything you cited seems to come from bits and pieces of info, not enought to justify the claim of military dictatorship with a façade of democracy.. Please see my comment above about France and Algerian Genocide to keep things in perspective...Baristarim 19:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Turkey really The Republic of Turkey is a largely democratic, secular, constitutional republic? 

message: "Despite its influence in civilian affairs, the military continues to enjoy strong support from the nation, frequently seen as Turkey's most trusted institution. although some critics maintain that the military exerts excessive influence over Turkeys government some even going as far as claiming that the country is effectively a military dictatorship with a fascade of democracy"
Someone seems to take exception to the bolded section of the above passage even though
1) Its a claim made by many (leftwing and Kurdish) observers,
2) The preceeding text is rather POV in that it implies that everyone in Turkey is content with the role of the military in Turkish society. Pointing out that not everyone sees it this way makes the section more NPOV
3) If Turkey really is the open democratic society it professes to be then such subjects should be open to discussion. 
Its hard to imagine that anyone can suggest that the Turkish Army doesnt have an excessive level of influence in Turkish society when it has carried out no less than three military coups ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.89.232 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 19 September 2006
:It is not POV to cite many public surveys on this subject that show that Turkish people trust the TAF more than any other institution.. This is not a political statement, there are many reasons for this. In any case, that claim is cited, whereas your claim wasn't. There are many articles relating to this issue, article about the country is not the ideological battleground for those... Again, I repeat, this is not a blog, pls cite your claims and try to insert them into the general flow of the article.. Pls don't imply that someone is not an open to discussion, this issue is being fervently debated in Turkey, so don't assume.. Lastly, nobody has claimed that TAF doesn't have any political influence... Baristarim 20:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't confuse trust and not having reservations about too much interference.. That would be too much political correctness.. There are many reasons for that trust level, corruption of elected officials etc.. And let's not forget that this is not a blog.. Let's not forget that France also denies the Algerian Genocide and recently passed a resolution 'to confirm the positive role of colonialisation'.. That is no reason to go the article about France and add such comments.. The info given in the country article has to be concise, there are MANY articles that talk about the shortcomings of Turkey.. Lastly, democracy is not an absolute.. If you had been following the recent developments, you can see that this article is not about the Turkey of 70s.. Pls keep these things in mind.. Everything you cited seems to come from bits and pieces of info, not enought to justify the claim of military dictatorship with a façade of democracy.. Please see my comment above about France and Algerian Genocide to keep things in perspective...Baristarim 19:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV dispute -Military- "military dictatorship with a fascade of democracy" 

message: The name of our country is Türkiye, not Turkey. Turkey is the name of a bird that americans eat to celebrate holidays.
:This is English Wikipedia. See WP:NAME. Bertilvidet 08:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Its "Türkiye" in Turkish and "Turkey" in english. Turkey existed  long before European  explorers named the bird as such when they first encountered it in the new world--Kilhan 14:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well I meant to say that the words "Turk" and "Turkey" (not the present state) were in use much earlier before the bird came into the picture. I just forgot to type the quotation marks in. Sorry about the confusion:)--Kilhan 15:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name is Türkiye 

message: Why the author refers to "occupation"? The Greeks establish Smirni much before the Turkic people were in the area. Same as Constantinoupole. Please provide evidence. Pushing POV. It was liberation. Greeks returned to the area to get back what was theirs before. It can only be occupation through the Turkish POV and third parties.
Regards,
dog
:Is this post meant to be serious? Bertilvidet 13:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your POV is hilarious.Ottoman Empire ruled Smyrna over 500 years,and it was theirs.Never mind,some of my countrymen think of liberating Athens from the heathens too.--88.247.96.210 07:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: So Turkey don't occupy a part of Cyprus, because the island previously has been ruled from Istanbul? And Hitler liberated Alsace, since that region previously had been a part of the German Empire? Sorry, it really doesn't seem serious to dispute an occupation (however provided for in the Treaty of Sèvres). Bertilvidet 14:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Bertilvidet. Izmir was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time. When the Greek armed forces (of the state of Greece) took over the city, they occupied it. Gee, whats there to dispute? --Kilhan 14:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for sharing your views with us. I can understand that you think Greece did the right thing in occupying Western Turkey. This is a legitimate stand. It is however irrelevant for the editing of an encyclopedia. We need to state the facts in a neutral matter, not what you might think of historical events. Bertilvidet 18:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Invaded or liberated, it is not really important because as we all know Turkish Army decisively defeated Greeks in Western Anatolia and then took back the city of İzmir. We don't have to talk about Hellenic Army's "attack" on the city. With respect, Deliogul 20:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Crazy boy, this little particular discussion is not about how it ended. The question if is the article should tell that Greece for a period occupied Izmir, as provided for in the Treaty of Sevres, or if we should use a more propagandistic term in order to underline the opinion of some users who find the occupation rightful. Bertilvidet 07:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Please be aware of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. I refuse to use Wikipedia to discuss our views on politics and history. The word "invaded" does not appear in relation to the treaty of Sevres. It is a funny argument that a country is not occupied if the central power collaborates or accepts the occupation. Then France was also not occupied by Nazi Germany, becuase the Vichy government approved it. Bertilvidet 20:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greeks Never "Occupied" Smirni/Izmir

message: In English a distinction needs to be made between the name of the country/nation of Turkey and the state that governs the country and nation as Turkey existed as a name for the country/nation well before the Republic of Turkey came into existence.
When the state the Sublime Porte governed the country/nation of Turkey it was called Turkey both   in common usage (as in "Johnny Turk"), and in formal intergovernmental correspondence (as well as Ottoman Empire) Turkey was on occasions used. Here is an example of Turkey being used:
:In view of those new crimes of Turkey against humanity and civilization, the Allied governments announce publicly to the Sublime-Porte that they will hold personally responsible [for] these crimes all members of the Ottoman government and those of their agents who are implicated in such massacres.
I think that at the very least the history section should be updated to reflect the use of the terms "Turkish Empire" and "Turkey" by English speakers long before the state "Republic of Turkey" existed and that such terms are still used to describe the Ottoman Empire, because without pointing this out, some people, who edit these pages, do not seem to know this and mistakenly IMO try to restrict the use of the word Turkey to describe only the Republic.
BTW making this distinction is very common in English. France was France long before the 3rd Republic, Germany Germany before the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, America was America before the United States came into existence and Russia remained Russia even thought it was governed by the government of the USSR. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey and the Republic of Turkey 

message: I made an edit saying that the Treaty of Lausanne confirmed the Republic of Turkey as the successor state of the Ottoman empire, and somebody deleted it.. To avoid this delete in the future, couple of words as to why it was made: it is only a legal and technical information, it doesn't imply any political or ideological message. The Russian Federation is the successor state of the USSR, but their ideological systems are completely different.. For people who know Turkey this might be evident, but for complete strangers making research on the Net about Turkey and that don't know its history, it could be intresting to know.. Successor state just means that the new state assumed the debts, properties (such as embassies), archives etc of the old one.. That's it.. The fact that there was a revolution doesn't mean anything, the USSR was the successor state of the Russian Empire, even though there was a much more profound revolution.. The UN, Treaty of Lausanne, the global academic community, Turkish people and Turkish government know this, it is hardly a secret or anything :)), in any case there is absolutely no-one anywhere that disputes the fact that Turkey was the successor state (legally). The article is about the Republic of Turkey and not the Empire, but this info is extremely relevant as to how Turkey was founded (contrary to other states that were a part of the Ottoman Empire who are considered as new states that are supposed to have declared their independence from the Empire and confirmed as such by treaties, legally speaking). Syria, Greece, Lebanon were not the successor states of the OE, Turkey was.. That's all... Regards Baristarim 23:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Successor State

message: These tables and paragraphs are way too confusing.. I have the impression that they were written as a list, rather than with the purpose of presenting something.. I will also add info about recent migratory movements to Turkey (don't forget there are half a million east europeans in TR at the moment, more than half the ethnicities that are listed there) - Please have a look at the articles of other countries, none of them list so much, even in countries with huge ethnic assimilations like France. Anyways, let me see what I can do.. Baristarim 14:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Same thing for religion, there is no need to list every single minority.. And where are the atheists?? :)) There are more atheists than syriac orthodox or molokans (?? molokans - what is that?, did anybody bother to check that article?? :)) and thus he foresaw the prophecy :)), i am removing it..)  We can create an article called Religion in Turkey and link it there and NOT Islam in Turkey BTW, why is that the main link in the religion section is Islam in Turkey??? And people are going to buy that it is a secular country, right? :)) nominally 99 percent, right... You know I just wish that, in 2006 at least, we would have stopped reciting all this propaganda that we learned at primary school.. You are either muslim, or you are not, there is no nominally :)).. In any case where is the proof? It can honestly be 99 percent, it is scientifically possible, but without quoting a credible survey (like it is the case in Greece), i think we should refrain from including it.. I will put a hand to it when I get around to it.. Baristarim 21:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographics

message: This article neither mentions, nor links to: the Armenian Genocide, the Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide by Turkey and Human rights in Turkey. Attempts at mentioning the genocide in the history section have been reverted, as have attempts at mentioning the controversy caused by Turkey's denial in the EU-relations part. 07:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It links to them via Politics of Turkey, History of the Republic of Turkey and History of Turkey, this article is an overview of the country, it is already way too long as it is.. I agree that half the text in the history section should be moved to other articles.. Baristarim 15:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also personally offended by your implication that the human rights record of Turkey is in anyway comparable with one that executes 2000 people a year, has exiled tens of millions of people from their homes, has crushed thousand of students with tanks only fifteen years ago.. It is not even comparable.. I also would like to remind you that Orhan Pamuk and Elif Safak who talked about the armenian genocide were charged but the competent court annulled the charges the first day it was convened.. So, pls put things in context, we are not talking about China here.. Baristarim 15:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment Regarding Baristarim's first statement about what links to the genocide article; I couldn't find any links to it from the articles you mention (or any of the history-related articles); the only Turkey-related articles that link to it are Demographics of Turkey,Foreign relations of Turkey, and Ottoman Empire.
;Comments
*Firstly, as i had said, the Armenian precondition has been dropped from EU report endorsed yesterday. My objection with your inclusion of it was that it was an innacurate statement, but i do agree however the issue is large enough to be included in its foreign relations (which i have in the past included before). Where i dont know, ideally a Turkish-Caucases relations would be perfect, but the foreign relations section has already become quite large. If people dont mind expanding it then i dont mind including the political ramifications of the dispute. I also disagree with whoever removed the problems Turkey is facing in its negotiations with the EU, why it was done i dont know. I also want this article to reach FA status, but forgive my pessism, i think there are a lot of people who would vote it down for no reason other than it being Turkey. Still we could at least try. Thanks, --A.Garnet 08:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It is a historic detail not worthy to be on this article. See History of Turkey. I was contacted via email to comment and am not particularly interested in this debate/nonsense/whatever at this point. I'd like to note that 'denial' is not exactly a neutral approach  --Cat out 14:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would not call a genocide a detail. And why is 'denial' not neutral? " denial : noun : an act of denying or declaring something not to be true". Yandman 14:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur with cat out about the use of the word denial.. That's why there is an article armenian genocide and a Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide, I replied to your first comment, above.. This article is an overview of the country.. You are asking to cover half the Turkish-EU relations with this (see your past edits).. That's agenda pushing.. Don't forget that this requirement was dropped from the EU report, so much for stealing the spotlight as someone had mentioned above. Turkey had an imperial history of 900 years, genocide or no, this article has to be about Turkey as it is at the moment, and that only as an overview... Baristarim 15:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try not to accuse others of pushing agendas. As for the often-used argument: "Turkey had an imperial history of 900 years, genocide or no, this article has to be about Turkey as it is at the moment", just explain to me why Turkey should make no mention of their genocide, whilst Germany does? Yandman 15:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I told you the two events are not comparable, in the same way no genocides are comparable - please refrain from this, it denigrates the horrible nature of these events by categorizing them.. Inclusion of the Holocaust in Germany is understandable since Germany still suffers from the ghosts of what happened, socially and politically.. Recently Germany refused to send any combat troops to Lebanon with the fear that German soldiers might end up facing Jewish soldiers.. On the other hand, for Turkey, no such traumatism exists.. Turkey was one of the first countries to recognize Armenia's independence in 1991, there are 40000 Armenian citizens who live and work in Turkey at this moment; as such in modern day Turkey, this is not a social issue.. the recognization issue is a political one, it doesn't have any social or cultural implications for anyone involved, this is why this can be only considered as agenda-pushing.. And don't say things like their/our genocide, we are not talking about some car, nobody owns a genocide.. Please make some more search on the armenian genocide, turkey doesn't own a genocide, these events happened during the Ottoman Empire, please feel free to mention it in the article about the ottoman empire, and talk about its political implications in the article about the foreign relations of turkey.. Baristarim 15:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: If most scholars refer to it as denial, then neutrality doesn't work. We have an article on Holocaust denial so that argument flat out fails. The Genocide issue is quite an inundated topic in Turkey so I don't understand why it does not merit an inclusion.--MarshallBagramyan 16:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: A Google news search suggests that the subject still receives a lot of attention, not just in regards to the EU issue.  Given that, it seems odd to relegate mention of it to a couple of sentences in a few sub-articles. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't change the subject, I was not trying to take a stance on the issue.. this is not the talk page of the armenian genocide; there is no relegation, the articles of armenian genocide and denial of armenian genocide exists.. this article is already way too long as it is.. You are right that there is way too much irrelevant stuff, in the history section, demographics etc.. I respect people who consider this issue very close to their hearts, on the other hand, Turkey has much more conjectural issues that deserve to be addressed before.. Please don't take this the wrong way.. Baristarim 18:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jamie wasn't changing the subject. He was pointing out that all mention of the genocide and it's denial has been relegated to sub-articles. This is obviously true: Go to the article page, press Ctrl-F on your browser, and type genocide. See? And as for your last statement, Wikipedia is NPOV. We are not here to talk about what deserves to be adressed, we are here to talk about what has been adressed by others. And the whole genocide/relocation thing has been given a lot of attention, and therefore it warrants inclusion. Yandman 19:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been given attention, but what is important is to put it in context.. I have already told you that the article needs trimming, and you edited so that half the Turkish-EU relations section is about the armenian genocide, that is also inapporpriate.. Turkish candidacy has tons of other issues to be addressed, if you took a look at all the news stories about this subject, you will see that.. and other articles you mentioned are not sub-articles, they are also articles.. In the recent report of the EU voted yesterday, MEPs voted to not include the recognition condition, so pls put things in context.. Please be constructive, in the light of this the controversy surrounding this issue doesn't need to be mentioned in a way that half the Turkish-EU relations section gets imbroiled in it.. Baristarim 22:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If users agree, i think the foreign relations section can be trimmed down and space made for TUrkish-Caucases relation. The dispute can be mentioned within that. --A.Garnet 21:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be a good idea. From what I understand, Baristarim does not agree with Jamie, Marshall and myself as to it's inclusion in Eu-relations, but I think it definetly needs to be talked about under "foreign relations": Please don't be offended by this, but from the viewpoint of someone who lives in an EU country, whenever Turkey is mentioned, "human rights" and "denial of the armenian genocide" are quick to follow. To ignore these aspects would, I feel, damage the credibility of the article.Yandman 16:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, u r still taking things out of context: what resonates before anything when Turkey is mentioned are being Muslim (the big daddy of all), economical problems (the real big daddy in the eyes of people who truly rule EU), human rights, Cyprus, Kurdish rights etc.. Please see this article written by an Armenian political science doctor and historian and published in panarmenian.net  that proves this point. As for Turkish-Caucases relations, it would also take things out of context.. Everyone who follows global geopolitical conjecture would know that Turkish-Israeli relations, one of the main and most important axis of Middle East, is much more important than even Turkish-Greece relations.. But even that is missing from that section.. These can be fully discussed in foreign relations of turkey and history of turkey, the article is already way too bloated.. The way some edits were done made so that half the EU-Turkish relations were about the recognition of the Armenian genocide, that also damages the credibility of this article, that's all I am saying... In the light of what I said, I think that you will agree that some edits were nothing but agenda-pushing.. Baristarim 18:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment: Sanitization of Turkish history 

message: What do people think of the statisitic boxes in Economy and Society sections? I think they should go to their relevant sub-articles, I dont think a general country article is the place for them. What do others think? --A.Garnet 11:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No objections. Bertilvidet 16:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree as well. —Khoikhoi 10:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur as well, it is way too crowded.. Baristarim 23:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove stat boxes? 

message: Wouldn't it be more logic to have the etymology section in the end of the article? Bertilvidet 16:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt it, in most of the country articles they are at the top.. I also think that it is a good thing, since it allows readers to get it over with pretty fast.. Baristarim 01:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I havent been through enough country articles to judge what the trend is. However, none of the country articles I have seen start with etymology. I really don't believe this is the most important feature to the country. Btw, any objections to leave out the etymology of the bird called Turkey of this article. It might be funn~y anecdote, but really not relevant for the country. Bertilvidet 15:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was also thinking of moving it to the bottom, but then A. Garnet pointed me towards other Featured Article country articles like Canada and Australia, so that's why I thought they should stay, otherwise it doesn't make a diff for me.. On the other hand I definitely agree with you about the anecdote on the bird :)) It is funny, but it is not that relevant to the country.. Baristarim 23:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: What's wrong with Turkey being part of D8? Someone keeps removing it. I've put it back, but I'd just like to know why it's a problem. Is there something controversial about this? Yandman 16:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a particular problem with that, I think the argument is that it just takes too much space, there are already tons of templates.. Baristarim 18:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  D8