Wikipedia talk:External links/Archive 6

message: Hello. I'd like to propose a change to Wikipedia's external links policy. I have had an account here since November of 2005 and have been a regular editor for nine months with over 1,100 edits, so I have plenty of experience with this and know the way that things work around here. Regarding linking to fan sites, I think that Wikipedia is far too strict on this issue. The policy states that only linking to one major fan site is appropriate. However, I think that this is unfair to the people that read the articles. Calvin and Hobbes for example, has an official website that leaves a lot to be desired for as far as information goes. On the other hand, there are many beautifully done and comprehensive fan sites with lots of information to build upon the article. The Calvin and Hobbes article owes a lot to Calvin and Hobbes :: Magic On Paper, a fan site. Would it have been a featured article without access to such an extensive library of information? Probably not, and it still isn't all contained in the article and shouldn't be! That's why we should have external links to fan sites. They build upon what is already written in the article itself, and often have a better offering than the official site of the subject of the article. Thus, I think that Wikipedia should be more open to fan sites as external links. 
Also, Wikipedia seems to have a thing for policing copyright in their external links. However, as I think that it's acceptable to remove a grossly copyright infringing link (such as a link to a site, which has been added on many occasion btw, with every Calvin and Hobbes strip every produced), I disagree with removing links to great informational resources on the grounds that they might be overdoing fair use a bit. Is it really Wikipedia's responsability to police copyright on other websites? - Mjg0503 20:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your first suggestion above and believe that my  proposed edits would allow for more than one fan site. The test is high quality and usefulness to many readers. Of course, the whole page needs a thorough rewrite, but probably not by me. David.Kane 21:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think this is a good test. Sure, get rid of links to fan sites which are merely reprints of magazine articles or big photo collections. But many fan sites have original fan art and add to the original material in ways that you won't find on an official site. These sites I feel should remain linked to - so I agree that the test is 'high quality' ... of course, how does one define that, well i think it's something that has to be a bit arbitary and will vary between article to article. Axim 00:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) If an external link has been used to build the article, it is not an external link anymore, it is a reference (hopefully reliable enough). The main problem with fan sites is that it is extremely hard to get contributors agree about which ones should be included. I work with a lot of fan-based articles (anime, manga, games, etc), and people complain from "My GeoCities site isn't there" to "This site is better, thus should be above". In Calvin and Hobbes, I would tag the article with the  tag, because there are too many external links. The miscellaneous articles could be moved as references or further reading inside the references section, and the fan sites should be cut to one or two. If people can't agree which fan sites should be included, include a link to Google's fan listing if there is not an open directory. -- ReyBrujo 21:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're speaking to the editor of the Open Directory listing. - Mjg0503 21:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you already know the advantages of pointing to a dmoz entry (or a Google or Yahoo directory if there is none in dmoz) instead of a set of fan sites. The casual user comes here looking for information about something, and we can tell him "this is what we know, and here is the official site from where you can get more". Selecting fan sites (out of probably thousands of them) is saying "from all the fan sites, these are the most useful/most reliable/best ones." Fans defend their links, deleting others, putting their links above the others, etc. Conflict can be easily solved by pointing to a Web category. The casual user then can choose from all the ones available there which one he wants to visit (hardly he would click more than one fan site), and we can let the fans to go fight at dmoz, Google or Yahoo. -- ReyBrujo 21:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Dmoz should be listed but I also think that it is a good idea to link to a few of the best sites as well. There are a lot of mediocre sites listed in Dmoz, given its open nature, believe me, and I think that it's best to seperate the good ones from the crowd. Plus, for many articles on Wikipedia, the related dmoz category does not have an editor. I know that the Calvin & Hobbes one didn't before I voluteered for the job. Thus, by linking to a dmoz listing without an editor, there will be lots of broken links in the listing, and often sites that should be included are not. - Mjg0503 22:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Definetely, to everything you said, Mike. Many fan sites are a little over the edge, but when you are covering a subject like C&H, you can't really get by with a good site without infringing a little. While DMOZ is a good idea, it is a pin to try to find the good sites in there. adamfc 01:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: It is not Wikipedia's mission to organize fan site listings. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a  directory for fan sites. -- Donald Albury 00:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And your point is? Yes Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (and a great one at that) but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't link to good sites just on the grounds that they are fan sites. - Mjg0503 00:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point should be when there are a huge number of quality fansites, a link to a directory of fansites provides users with valuable information.  When a (useful) directory link is available, that's the best solution. We should be here to give users valuable encyclopedic content.  Arbritray things like the one fansite rule are aggressively anti-user and need to be changed, but there is no need to point out specific fansites if a directory link can point out several, even if some in the directory are weak. 2005 01:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  I agree with that statement in general. However, Wikipedia also aims to be the site with the most comprehensive content about a topic. In this regard, I think any fan site which has original content (and not just a compilation of material) should be considered a valid link. I think people have become to hung-up on copyright and are forgetting the spirit of Wikipedia. The copyright policy is there to stop Wikipedia getting sued, not because they are making any moral judgement on it. Therefore, if a fan site has original derivative content, doesn't have excessive copied images/text etc, and is of a high quality, then I say let it be linked. Axim 01:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So now instead of linking to a fansite that has information about an anime, its characters, dubs, release dates, director, producer, etc, we are going to link to a site where members create stories about the anime's characters? -- ReyBrujo 01:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No, he said that we should link to sites that are very good, and he listed some reasons that sites can be very good. I don't think that linking to sites that are just fnafic sites is the best idea, though. I'm more inclined to link to the sites with the most extensive content and best info. - Mjg0503 01:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically, if the article is about Mickey Mouse, we wouldn't link to a site with bios and stuff taken from the official site and images plastered all over, but to a site with lots of content in depth about the webmaster's thoughts on the whole topic. Getting more specific to an article, Calvin and Hobbes; we wouldn't link to A Directory of all the strips, but to a site with content you won't find anywhere else that is importanat to your undersatnding of Calvin and Hobbes. adamfc 16:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main problem is, who is this guy to have his site linked from Wikipedia? If you include a non reliable external link (in example, a university student's fan page) with a probable POV (he thinks the cartoon is the best ever created), you are forced to include another external link to someone who thinks the cartoon is not. Thus, from having an external link to the official site you now have two fan sites where one thinks the cartoon is great and another that is not. The main problem is that they are both unreliable, nor great. You may be linking to a GeoCities and a Lycos or Tripod site for the sake of having links. Back to the original question, why the webmaster's thoughts on the whole topic are notable to be linked from here?  And what stops other from adding their own links to other webmaster's thoughts on the whole topic? -- ReyBrujo 17:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now come on! That's not at all the spirit of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is supposed to be open to change and is free content. You shouldn't have to be Michael Jordan or Bill Gates to get a link from Wikipedia. Plus, just because somebody hosts their site on a free server does not mean that the site is not well done. Sure, they are a lot of amaturish pages on GeoCities and Tripod, but sometimes somebody can be hosting a wonderful website there! Why should we have to tell them "Well, since you don't pay a monthly bill for your site out of your pocket, it must not be that good"? That's totally unfair. - Mjg0503 17:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no reason to assume a fansite is "unreliable".  In the real world, on many topics, these sites are the best source of information on the topic and thus should be linked to.  The url of the content should be irrelevant. There is no reason to be anti-user... choose the best and most appropriate resources to link to.  The question actually is why should a certain type of site's ideas be treated differently than another site's?  It's a silly distinction that no one can ever justify.  There is no probalem here and much benefit to simply link based on the other criteria on WP:EL.  Why expert sites that happen to be made by fans are not welcome makes no sense, and needs to be changed. 2005 20:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Brilliantly put :-) - Mjg0503 20:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: We go back to square zero. Rule 1: fans can agree about a lot of things, except fan sites. They can not agree about the(FA!) external links, or worse. Sure, we need to give information to the casual user. But what kind of information? The opinion of John Generic Bob, owner of the contents of Generic GeoCities Fan Site with 115 hits since 2002? If so, we are wrong, very wrong. I don't disagree about adding the best fan sites after doing a research in the talk page. But not leasing everyone to insert their own sites, even if they are proposing an interesting twist nobody has ever thought before. -- ReyBrujo 02:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ReyBrujo, are you missing the point of the policy change? I quote mjg0503, "That's why we should have external links to fan sites. They build upon what is already written in the article itself, and often have a better offering than the official site of the subject of the article." This means that John Generic Bob's Geocities website would not be included in the Generic Construction Compny Article unless Jon Generic Bob's site gave inforamtion that could not be included in the wikipedia entry and offers valuable information to the company. Many fan sites would be good to include because they like the company so much. they would give a histry of the site and inportant facts and more. So what if many geocities sites are half-@ssed. DON"T LINK TO THEM. That is the whole point of wikipedia. People checking other people's choices. if we had a limit of 5 external links, even, do you think that John Generic Bob's website would get in if it is crap? NO, and if it did, it is not John Gnereic Bob's fault or the fault of the amended wikipedia rule. It is the fault of the editors.adamfc 21:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could you just clarify what precisely is the problem with the proposed solution of official fansite + dmoz listing?  Also, could you please identify which reliable secondary source we should to assess the relative quality and authority of fansites, absent the dmoz solution?  Reference to objective secondary sources is the only way I can think of offhand to settle the competing claims of individual editors. Guy 11:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed policy change 

message: * Clarifies the quality requirements, and stops the line from overiding the bar on blogs and forums. --Barberio 18:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #Oppose- Doesn't add anything. --JJay 20:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: * --Mike 18:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral

message: *I don't interpret the line as commenting on forums or blogs at all.  If that was stated, I would oppose.  Lots of blogs are stable.  Nothing in this line would prevent me from linking to a blog. 2005 21:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: The more closely that I read the article, the more convinced I am that it needs bold editing. This is independent of the smaller changes that I have been suggesting above. As it is, the article is too long and conflates at least three different issues. First, is it about "External links" meaning the section of many articles? That is certainly what most of the talk page would suggest. Second, is it about "external links" meaning any instance in which a link goes outside of Wikipedia? Much of the article discusses these cases even though they are covered elsewhere in Wikipedia. Does this disucssion belong here? Third, is it about how to make external links, of whatever type? This obviously needs to be covered, but all that information could go on a separate page and then be linked to from here. Moreover, why wouldn't I just want to add a bit to Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page#Links_and_URLs to take care of this? There is no reason for Wikipedia to cover the mechanics of how to link in multiple places.
My initial thought is that this article should be much shorter and should focus on just one of these topics: "External links" as a common section used in articles, what belongs there and what does not. At this point, I do not propose changing any of the lists of what to include, what not to include and so on. I propose removing the how to sections to elsewhere and linking to them. The only section that I propose rewriting as a part of this would be the first paragraph to make clear these different usages and point people to the correct place to go depending on what they are looking for. But, before diving into this, I seek comments from more experienced editors. David.Kane 13:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the article should be split into the two topics. I might suggest creating two mockup articles and gaining consensus on them before replacing the existing article. As for the how-to part, would that also be split into two parts (one for the section, the other for inline links?) Fagstein 17:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies for my ignorance but how does one create "mockup articles"? Also, since rapid change is not always met with widespread acceptance by editors involved with this page, my initial plan is to just split the article into two parts, with no editing beyond the necessary links. After that, we can see if the split off part could be better incorporated elsewhere and/or if any editing should be done on each part. But, before doing anything, I will await further comment. David.Kane 01:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Create sub-articles like Wikipedia:External links/Mockup etc. You (or someone else) will need to come up with a proper name for each article to avoid confusion between the two. Fagstein 06:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting the article up and focussing on one aspect of "External links"