Talk:Ghost in the Shell/Archive 2

message: The manga specific info should be split off to Ghost in the Shell (manga) and use this as a fictional universe overview page, which can discuss the similarity and differences between the films, manga, and tv anime. 70.51.11.121 06:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with splitting. In my opinion, it's a bit confusing when all three (manga, anime and the "universe") are mixed up in one article. The films and the manga aren't even directly related (in sense that the plots would go together), which also supports splitting it up.(The split has already been made it seems, but I think we ought to try keep it this way instead of merging the manga page into the main article. A rewrite is needed tho, to clearly separate the two.)  Pasi 00:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt anyone who knows the series would disagree. The manga, the movies, and the TV series all seem to exist as their own entities. I suppose the comics and movies might have continuity, but the show is definitely it's own alternate timeline, where Motoko didn't fuse with the Puppetmaster. Luna Santin 11:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would certainly agree with the above. In its current form the article is rather unwieldly and. It might even be dvisable to split off the section on ghosts, as that applies equaly to all three incarnations. Go for the diambiguation and split. Mr. Pants 15:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Split off manga specific info

message: I don't think the music section is appropriate for this article. I propose moving them to their respective animes. What do you guys think? Boneheadmx 21:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Anville 21:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree. The Rod 21:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Cool.  Thanks.  Anville 07:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Music Section

message: from Talk:Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex:
:Wait, what the hell is all this? I don't know who did what, but this is a freaking mess.  Look at that nav template, holy crap man. And why are things being listed as 1st and 3rd Gig, when only "2nd Gig" was used as a name? It doesn't matter what one article was originally for or what, this whole mess needs to be restructured and re-evaluated. For starters, no articles with fan-names like 1st and 3rd Gig.  Second, original SAC and 2nd Gig should be merged back to here, split sections off as needed, but not like this  This... is just so sloppy.... Third, that nav template... is too big..... 
:Don't anyone go freaking out just yet. No one is going to be doing something that will look stupid, in any case.  Get some ideas for article structure and so on. This is a damn good anime and it deserves better than this. -- Ned Scott 08:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  *cough* sorry for the harsh reaction, but it was quite a shock ;) -- Ned Scott 09:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The characters (most small articles or stubs) are in my list of character articles that need to be merged. I may be bold with them.. --Kunzite 14:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I've Prod'ed Ghost in the Shell (anime film series) and Ghost in the Shell (video game) (disambiguation), and put merge notices on Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (1st GiG), Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd GIG, and Ghost in the Shell: Tachikoma Days to be merged to Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.  Also, merged Cyberbrain Sclerosis to Cyberbrain. -- Ned Scott 11:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't combining all the SAC articles into one article lead to a 20-page long mess?  They're already quite long as they are... Dark Shikari 21:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, that would be a very dumb idea.  Thankfully no one has suggested that. -- Ned Scott 03:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GITS mess

message: Kunzite has suggested that the Seburo article be merged with the Ghost in the Shell article. I am against this merge as the fictional company is used in just about all of Shirow's works, not just GITS. --YoungFreud 06:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok.  hmm.  I hadn't realized that.  Well, that removes merging to GITS as an option.  How does this article assert notability?  There are no citations.  It could be merged to Shirow's article. --Kunzite 06:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

text: It is also become a part of other universes as well.  Second Life for one, the gaming mod community for another.  It COULD be merged to Shirow, but I think the Seburo name is actually more notable outside of Shirow's universe.  --Mdwyer 18:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Seburo Merge Proposal

message: Could somebody tell me where the de-ghosting stuff is mentioned? I've read all the comics and seen all the movies/tv-episodes, but I don't remember it ever coming up. It's not exactly unthinkable that I would have missed it, of course, there's a lot going on. I'm just curious. risk 13:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  De-ghosting 

message: I don't think the cyberbrain article should be merged into the main GITS article. While it is a central concept, It can easily grow beyond just GITS. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 05:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  cyberbrain merge 

message: Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alone_Complex has been linked. Please review! :-)
:Why was the Stand Alone Complex (concept) article expunged and redirect here?
:20:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Link

message: According to Talk:Batou#Bateau and User:Shame On You's subsequent [edit], Batou's name is more correctly spelled Bateau in English.  Some googling confirmed that the "Bateau" spelling is fairly common and present in some DVD sleeves.  Based on this, I moved the article to Buttetsu Bateau and changed the spelling where I could find it.  User:Ben W Bell and I discussed this on our talk pages here and here.  He points out that Batou is more common and used on [Production IG's official site].  We need to pick one or the other, but be consistent.  Kundor 20:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it does indeed appear that both versions of the spelling in English are indeed used. The original GitS film on English release does state Bateau in the end credits (but Batou in the subtitles), as does the US release of one of the soundtracks. Doing some searches does indeed reveal that the spelling is indeed used quite a bit on the internet, often in the case of film and DVD reviews that I can see, but also on some fan sites. The other spelling, Batou is also very common, is the spelling used in the Official Logs for the TV series, is the spelling used in the TV series and is the spelling used on Production IG's official site, as Kundor has pointed out above. Straightforward Google counts show Batou is found more frequently than Bateau, but we all know Google counts aren't the be all and end all of fact finding and can be skewed quite easily. So I recommended we have a discussion, try and pull in as many people as possible and come up with an agreement as to which one we should use (while also mentioning the other is a common alternative spelling as well). People's thoughts? Cases? Opinions? Ben W Bell talk 10:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I went in and changed the spelling to Batou on pages having anything to do with the TV show.  Not the movies, books, or manga.  My justification being the ending credits of both seasons DVDs spell it as Batou, not Bateau.  Just trying to be consistent with the DVDs.  I figure if anyone knew the correct spelling, the production company would...--Salvax T - C--21:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The name Batou is now official and the Buttetsu_Bateau article was redirected to Batou.User:Shame On You was blocked for extreme and gross violations of our WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA policies.--Neuromancien 07:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batou/Bateau's name 

message: My plan for Ghost in the Shell is to turn it into a topic overview and outline the materials contained within. Lacking an appropriate parallel in the Anime and Manga topic, this will be the first topic overview that would ultimately hit GA or higher. Recently, the much contested Fullmetal Alchemist page was removed from GA status and the second example Sailor moon is likely to be stripped of its status on September 18th.  
This would include small one paragraph sections on the releases splitting off to the topics and listing their related media as necessary for proper context. For instance, the Ghost in the Shell film being discussed before its sorta, but not really sequel Ghost in the Shell 2/Innocence. I would combine the details of what Stand Alone Complex is as part of an “extended universe” of Ghost in the Shell and cover its media, making the SAC page about the two anime seasons. For the novels and secondary and adapted works that do not meet standalone article requirements, I would mention them on this set index/topic overview without going into intricate detail. After the media is covered, I would make a section to list its principal creators of the media and give details about their roles, leading to their own biographical pages – examples would include Oshii and Kamiyama. 
Several pages in the Ghost in the Shell section are reaching Good Article status, and it would be very helpful to also have a proper topic overview to do this, that is mirrored off the set index format of DISAMB. The manga, video game or the much more popular film should not be combined to the existing page or replace the set index/topic overview because it results in extra reading that serves no pressing purpose and does a disservice to readers, including the mobile users who access Wikipedia via smart phones. It needs to be kept as short and as functionally necessary to identify the material on its separate pages.
Lastly, the policy reasons for doing this are not under the flawed MOSAM which has often been claimed. The RFC said MOSAM is a manual of style and should not dictate or advise on notability, let alone push a local consensus about notability, over riding wider consensus about N/GNG. From here it goes to WP:SS as with World War II. Harry Potter is also a good example and is something that should be followed for Ghost in the Shell. While such articles are uncommon on Wikipedia, they serve to further the understanding of a complex subject and this is the root of my argument – the page must be accessible and comprehensible to the readers without bogging down in a singular topic. The  discussion for this page should have revolved around handling the ambiguous incoming link or term and the best way to resolve this could be a reading of Disamb's broad concept – taking after the Nokia examples – they are all related and bear different names, but such a page brings context and meaning about the relationship, but could press the reader's patience and result in seeking information outside Wikipedia. Our readers are essential to Wikipedia's continued relevance and success, handling such a complex page so as to not alienate or inconvenience a sizable minority is in our best interests. 
The Ghost in the Shell page is indeed a complex and unusual type of page, but the merger of two explanatory articles will go to establishing a stronger organization and reflection of the topic. The set index is a compromise of sorts, but it doesn't test the reader's patience like a broad concept page and should be a proper balance of the key information in an appropriate context. Wikipedia is not a macro or micro encyclopedia, it must strike a balance when possible and for the sake of our readers I am convinced that this is the best format for this article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chris's response 

message: My plan is simple. Ghost in the Shell and Ghost in the Shell (manga) are merged into a single article titled "Ghost in the Shell", which is primarily an article about the original manga serialization and graphic novels, with the "Media" section on the current article also incorporated. There are constantly arguments from Chris that the manga does not meet WP:PTOPIC status even though it is only one of 3 works of fiction with the English title "Ghost in the Shell" (without any additional descriptors). Ghost in the Shell (video game) definitely does not meet the requirements of being the primary topic, which leaves Ghost in the Shell (1995 film). It would make more sense for that page to be disambiguated as the film did not come until 5 years after the original manga ended its serialization for the scenes from which the film was adapted. These show that the manga should be the primary topic, as it is the entity by which "Ghost in the Shell" (again, without any additional descriptors) is best known for and has the longest relevance as the term. Nothing is lost in my proposal other than a URL. All information located on the current pages will be retained for the new page.
I really find that this "franchise article" or "top level article" concept does not work for anime and manga no matter how many times it is proposed, as the topic of the "franchise" never qualifies as being separately notable. I would also like to add that the only reason Fullmetal Alchemist was demoted from GA and Sailor Moon is in the process of being demoted is because of another editor with a similar mindset towards WP:MOSAM as ChrisGualtieri has demonstrated throughout my own and others' interactions with him, demanding that the pages be turned more into franchise pages and separate articles be made on the works of media that only differ in whether or not they were on paper or on TV.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:22, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Ryulong's plan

message: Heh, both responses are considerably longer than 1000 characters :-/ .
The reason I'm asking for 1000 characters is to try to see if you can condense down your plan yourselves. A lot of text above is dedicated to opinions, arguments, or other things, rather than to actual plans to do with actual edits.  
Would you like to summarize your posts further yourselves, or do you want to risk me trying to summarize myself? ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:51, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge Ghost in the Shell and Ghost in the Shell (manga) because a "franchise article"/"topic level articles" is not notable for inclusion on its own in this case, and merge in a way such that all relevant information is kept and featured, as the manga meets WP:PTOPIC. How's that?—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nice and short, and pretty much what I expected it to be! --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

text: "Media franchise" is something people make up to connect fictional works together. Ghost in the Shell was a manga that inspired two films, a video game, a television series with its own manga, films, and video games, and a separate film series. This concept of a "franchise" is harmful to Wikipedia, as it produces one short poor article that is a glorified disambiguation page at the behest of a page that is deemed independently notable, but independently notable from what? Chris, you constantly bring up that there are 30 entries when I think 25 of those are contained within the Stand Alone Complex series and they have no need to be mentioned on this page. Comparing this to biological taxonomy is bull. The tree analogy that someone used some point in this process fits better. The manga is the roots and trunk and its branches are the Oshii films, the video game, SAC, and ARISE. And last I checked on mobile browsing all sections are collapsed until selected (at least on iOS Safari and the dedicated app) and on desktop the table of contents gets people to where they want to be. You make all these excuses and link to all of these policies and guidelines you think are relevant but none of them hold up.—Ryulong (琉竜) 13:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Media_franchises Use outside Wikipedia (just random examples) by journalists:  by producers:  --Niemti (talk) 14:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: None of those use the term "media franchise" and all of those instances of "franchise" work better with "series" which implies sequential releases which Ghost in the Shell does not meet the requirements of.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:15, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet they use "franchise", boohoo. It's "media franchise" on Wikipedia only to differ from non-media franchises like McDonald's or al-Zawahiri's. --Niemti (talk) 14:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The article on media franchise even states it is wrong to confuse it with a film series.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

text: And a large number of the entries of :Category:Media franchises don't seem to really fit.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

text: Do you have a source for this claim of yours? All of it seems to be based on your own personal emotions regarding the work of fiction rather than the facts out there about it. NGE isn't a franchise either, as I certainly can't find anyone describing it as such. Dot Hack is the only thing that remotely comes close because there are multiple anime and video games all with the title "Dot Hack". With Ghost in the Shell and Neon Genesis Evangelion you have the originating work of fiction and then adaptations from them. This means they should be treated as the trunk of the tree rather than just another branch among Stand Alone Complex and Arise or Girlfriend of Steel and Rebuild.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Save it for mediation. You blew off three sources and the dictionary definition. So please don't make another big brawl over something so petty. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never been shown anything saying "Ghost in the Shell [is a] franchise" or "Neon Genesis Evangelion [is a] franchise". It's just an invention on Wikipedia to keep shit separate from each other for no reason that I can discern. It works for films. It works for video games. It does not work for manga and anime. And mediation is never going to happen because the community won't give Lucia an exception on her ban.—Ryulong (琉竜) 22:18, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  1