Talk:Bardylis

message: Tertulian on baraliris Tertullian is the only one mentioning this character.And he quotes Callisthenes.
"and I further learn from Callisthenes that it was from the indication of a dream that Baraliris the Illyrian stretched his dominion from the Molossi to the frontiers of Macedon."
He probably is Bardyllis that attacked epirus and macedon after Dionysius I of Syracuse proded and aided him as to change the political situation in Greece.There is no baraliris charakter anywhere else and the acts described in Tertullian refer to the assault by Bardyllis.Megistias (talk) 22:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bardhyllis= Bardh(white)+ yllis(star), Albania(Albanoi=white) Albania was derived from Bardh=white=Albanoi  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.122.237 (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no established connection with Illyrians to albanians.Megistias (talk) 22:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Hello, I have created the article Bardhyl about the Albanian given name. The article Bardhyl will be the place to explain the origin of the Albanian name and its usage. For this article Bardyllis editors are removing reference to the Albanian name because as far as can be determined, the Albanian name Bardhyl was re-introduced, and giving the Albanian name of Bardyllis is not pertinent according to Wikipedia manual of style. We do not give the Serbian name for Bardyllis either. Also that etymology for Bardyllis meaning "white star" is supported by what reputable linguists? It appears to be a folk etymology. A is putting the smack down (talk) 00:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barliris could be Bardyllis 

message: Bardyllis united the illyrians and attacked Greece defeating Macedonia and imposing a tax of submission in 385 he advanced still more deeply in Greece making attacks in Epirus as well. These attacks were coordinated from the Dionysius I of Syracuse a Tyrant that wanted to change the Molossian king with Alcetas I of Epirus that was exiled .He Intended to control the Ionian sea.The "Celtic" type army of Bardyllis had been strengthened with 2000 Greek soldiers of magna grecia and 500 bronze thoraxes for their Illyrians. The Epirotes were surprised and lost 15.000 men. At the possession of Epirus the Bardyllis acquired thousands bronze thoraxes and hoplite shields from epirotes that fought with the hoplite way .He began training his army in the hoplite way of battle. Simultaneously he overcame the king [Ptolemy of Aloros]] ruling Macedon that tried to free Macedon from the tax of submission. Afterwards he won his successor Perdiccas III of Macedon killing him. Perdiccas III of Macedon was the father of Phillipp , father of Alexander the Great. When the Spartans learned what happened to the Epirotes and that Dodona was defiled by the illyrians Agesilaus ventured against them and destroyed them completely forcing them to leave Epirus and Macedon.
The events are described by diodorus of Siculus book 15.
Can someone get a secondary source on this? The event doesn't seem to be that important to modern historiansMegistias (talk) 19:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dionysius aspirations 

message: Various IPs and short-lived accounts have repeatedly attempted to add an obvious folk etymology to the article, linking the name Bardyllis to modern Albanian. In this  edit, it was attempted to back this claim up with a ref to Google Translator. Let's clarify this once and for all: the existence of such a phrase in modern Albanian is beside the point, and references about that are worthless. What you would need is a reliable academic source actually proposing the link between this modern phrase and the ancient name. Such a source is unlikely to exist – it is quite obvious to any linguistically informed reader that such a link would be untenable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "King Whitestar" is folk etymology if there ever was such a thing.  The very notion that an ancient name could have an etymology in a modern language is sheer nonsense.  All the more so when we can't even be sure if the languages are even related. Athenean (talk) 15:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

text: Athenean and Dab can you bring a reference for your deductions? You can't just change the wording of three sources because you consider it a folk etymology.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:19, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: None of your sources claim that this is the etymology, because that is of course impossible.  Ancient names cannot have etymologies based on modern languages. So if anything, the burden of proof is on you to prove that "White Star" is the etymology og Bardyllis.  Good luck with that. Athenean (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

text: It seems like it is also impossible for you to find sources that this is folk etimology. --Sulmues (talk) 17:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's spelled "etymology", by the way. Athenean (talk) 17:44, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I'll then kindly ask you to be the reviewer of Skanderbeg, when I'll relist it, since the current one disclaims any opinions on language. --Sulmues (talk) 17:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folk etymology 

message: ::Peresadyes were Thracians as the latest archeological data dictate. Thracian origin ref . Please do not insert "illyrian" POV by removing referenced facts diff, diff, diff . You have done it more than 3 times. Megistias (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There are 2 theories, add the Thracian theory too, but don't remove the Illyrian theory and don't disrupt the prose which is much more encyclopedic than the previous one.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:15, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No their Origin was Thracian as archeology exhibits. Your POV is typical and unacceptable.Megistias (talk) 13:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peresadyes 

message: I wish the Albanian patriots could forget about the Iron Age for five minutes and try to get their economy on track instead: Patriotism is love of the homeland. I see little love of or benefit for the homeland in swamping the internet with crappy pseudo-etymologies. --dab (𒁳) 13:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish admins not to have this kind of behavior and mentality. Aigest (talk) 14:48, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Dab if you are trying to bait the Albanian "nationalists" by calling valid sources "pseudo etymologists" and by inviting them to improve their economy, you might achieve your objective, because they might say something you will block them for. What you will not achieve is to remove valid sources that claim what you don't agree with. Can you please discuss sources here rather than remove references? --Sulmues (talk) 15:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

text: (Oh, and, by the way, the second author cited, Hodgkinson, doesn't seem to be a linguist, but a "Journalist, writer, Naval Intelligence Officer and Balkan expert", and the third footnote lacks author attribution – make sure you find the author of the actual piece of text, not just the editor or whatever of the whole book.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Alain Ducellier.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, a decent enough author, but not an historical linguist either. BTW, at the risk of a bit of OR: actual historical linguistics of Albanian seems to reconstruct a root for bardhe that would have IE and prehistoric Albanian *g in the middle, not *d, as the "Bardyllis" connection would seem to entail . Given this little stumbling block, can you please confirm you have actually read the Mann book, beyond that google snippet, and can vouch for whatever else he says or doesn't say about the name? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:42, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I can vouch for reading that chapter and part of the next one. I could get the book again in a couple of weeks and scan the whole page if that's necessary. Btw I was troubled by the same OR too and then I found that some Latin sources name him as Bargulis/Bargulus(which led me to even more OR).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:03, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "Bardyillis" etymology

message: Just when I thought the folk etymology nonsense had stopped, it's starting again, courtesy of some users who simply won't let this go, using whatever sources they can scrape from the bottom of the barrel. Specifically:
* A source from 1953 (Kretschmer), a good source to be sure, but a little dated and not viewable online.  I very much doubt Kretschmer would state that the etymology of Bardyllis is "I bardhe" and "yll".
* Another off-line source on the origin of the Romanian language, poorly cited and difficult to verify.
* A study from some kind of Belgian toponyms commision, way off-topic.
* The 1982 Albanian Academy of Sciences, at the time of Hoxha's rule, when scholars were under orders to look for an "Illyrian" connection.  I don't think any scholar in the country at the time would dare do otherwise. 
In other words, classic gaming of WP:RS using outdated, off-line, or off-topic sources to push a particular POV. Athenean (talk) 19:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Great work Aigest. There's also Hans Krahe  and by Pavle Ivić himself too --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

text: You deleted Hans Krahe, Pavle Ivic and many others to revert to something about a modern Albanian folk etymology. Obviously Pavle Ivic a Serb scholar isn't modern Albanian folk etymology. I'm starting a RfC and I'd like you dab to explain what makes you consider Pavle Ivic work a modern Albanian folk etymology. Kretschmer is one of them not the only one and which one of the other scholars refuted this? Ivic, Krahe, Rosetti and Demiraj aren't refuting it. In fact they're saying the same thing as Kretschmer, but even if there was a source that rejected it aren't we supposed to not editorialize and just state all cases? Judging by the quantity and the quality of the sources most scholars support the "bardhë" theory, so why exclude it? --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Correction to dab. "White" etymology is generally accepted by scholars(as you can see from many references) while "white star" is a folk one and references used show that. I don't understand why all those references and linked text are removed. For Barduli-Bardh etymology link see also Anton Mayer  an expert in Illyrian languages studies in his well known publication Die Sprache der alten Illyrier, Author Anton Mayer Editor Anton Mayer Compiled by Anton Mayer Publisher In Kommission bei R. M. Rohrer, 1957. Do we have to bring a hundred sources for a simple sentence?! Aigest (talk) 14:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folk etymology, again 

message: There have been brought many sources about the etymological relation of the Albanian word bardh-ë with the name Bardylis. The sources can be found on above sections. Among other sources are Hans Krahe, Pavle Ivic and Paul Kretschmer. The current version connects it with a modern Albanian folk etymology about the word bardh and yll. If the sources say that the name is related to the word bardh-ë, why can't this be added? If there is a source that rejects it, add that too but why is this being exluded when all these scholars support it? We aren't supposed to choose what's right and wrong but state all cases and let the reader decide.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bardyllis etymology 

message: From references is clear that bardh~white is accepted by scholars on Bardyllis, Bardulis and other forms (Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic, Demiraj) while white star is a popular etymology. 
Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh~White (IE bhrHg) etymology since 1930' to nowadays
#Kretschmer
#Krahe 
#Mayer P
#Rosetti
#Ivić
#Demiraj
# Albanian Academy
# Belgian Academy  
Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh Yll ~ White Star false etymology
#Mann
I don't think Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic can be classified as POV pushers, moreover modern Albanians, so refrain yourself from blind reverting Athenean. Aigest (talk) 07:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Alex apparently dab misunderstood what was my position, while Athenean rv blindly without any kind of argumentation why Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosetti, Ivic (all notably non Albanian scholars and authorities on IE linguistic) are to be considered modern Albanian folks and POV?!! The funny thing is that you although an experienced editor also rv blindly without participating in RfC, but just following Athenean rv in an attitude of tag teaming. The many references in the text are very clear and even online (rare thing to have both) so the text is ok. If you are interested in the article give your opinion why my version is not correct, but not go on doing blind reverts. Aigest (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please avoid misusing a number of sources. It has been clearly stated by several administrators [] that this is nothing more than 'nationalistic nonsense'. So at least respect the ongoing rfc which is still open and avoid edit-warring by promoting highly questioned conclusions.Alexikoua (talk) 13:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, clearly, there is a lot of information about the hypothesis. All we have to do is write the theories on the name. As (I am citing him again today) Hamp says, even if Bardhyllis comes from Bardh and Yll it does not mean that Illyrian is descendant of Albanian. Nevertheless, we have to give both perspectives. —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Zjarithoues: seems you have forgotten your last answer per Fut's proposal [],so wp:disruption can easily apply here (X editor promised to check a specific book before he continues the discussion, but on the proccess he forgets this, and conitnues with the same chaos). Alexikoua (talk) 17:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a completely irrelevant discussion regarding linguistics, which you don't understand so please don't make deductions. That was a previous discussion about connections to the white star theory, which isn't related at all with the current versions.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  White vs white star etymology 

message: The level of abuse of Google Books snippets has reached intolerable levels.  The above example by User:Aigest is a case in point.  Let's look analytically at all the snippets provided:
#Kretschmer The proposal by Krestchmer is quite old, though I suppose it's ok as long as this is made clear.
#Krahe The snippet provided shows absolutely nothing. I don't see "bardhe" or Albanian anywhere. 
#Mayer P This is also from the 50's.
#Rosetti No explanation or context whatsoever.
#Ivić Is this some kind of joke?
#Demiraj Same here.  What is this supposed to show?
# Albanian Academy Hoxha-era publications should given a wide berth.
# Belgian Academy Shows absolutely nothing.
Thus, all I see are a couple of snippets from publications from the 50's, with the rest being either irrelevant, unintelligible, or non-existant. This is poor sourcing and research technique, and has a hint of desperation to it. I suppose I could live "Some 20th century linguists connect the name "Bardyllis" with Alb. "Bardhe".", but it should also be made clear that "King Whitestar" is folk etymology and nothing more.  I think Anna's edit, with exception of some grammar, is a step in the right direction. Athenean (talk) 02:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Snippet abuse 

message: Gbooks hits:
*Bardylis 338
*Bardyllis 220
*Bardulis 141
*Bardullis 74
I suggest a move to Bardylis.--Zoupan 00:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: This is an Albanian-English dictionary you may want to access here [] 
There's a word 'bardhul' which actually seamlessly derives from something that Ancient Greeks might record as Bardylis. It means "whitish, hoary, grey-haired" in Albanian, and the meaning 'gray' has been also noted in Messapian according to the article. It is obviously derived from the word "bardhë", with a common Albanian suffix -ul. 
Can this be noted in the text too?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.5.156 (talk) 12:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Bardhë' means 'white' in Albanian, but 'bardhul' means 'gray' 

message: I would like to improve the article and elaborate a section about the debates on Bardylis' origins. The current text suggests without doubt that he was Dardanian, although this is nothing else, but N. G. L. Hammond's theory from 1966 that neither Pierre Cabanes, nor Albanian historiography accepted. To cut this short, the origins of Bardylis are not clarified at all, and the article should reflect this. Everyone is in agreement that Bardylis reigned the area around the Lyncistes Lakes, the areas that are historically called Enchele and Dassaretis. Back in 1877 Gustav Zippel suggested that he might have been a descendant of the ancient Enchelean kings (to whom the Trebeništa royal tombs supposedly belong), and this was taken over by other scholars, to be mentioned that Albanian historians prefer to refer to him as an Enchelean king to our days, or avoid to make a statement on his realm. Then in 1966 Hammond came and figured that he must have been a Dardanian, because he did not think that the economically poor (?) Dassaretis could have been his center, and also suggesting that the three major tribes of the Illyrians according to Strabon were the Ardiates, the Autariates and the Dardanians, so the powerful king must have belonged to one of this. There are several problems with this deduction. The Taulantians are not mentioned either by Strabon, yet they became the masters of South Illyria in the second half of the 3rd century BC. Dassaretis had a very important strategic location between Epirus and Macedonia, and Bardylis II restored the power of his grandfather specifically in Dassaretis (see the royal tombs in Selca e Poshtme), so Dassaretis should not be ignored as a possible center for the first Illyrian kings. The first Dardanian king mentioned by name in the ancient sources is Longarus about 150 years after Bardylis' time. The author great Illyrologist, Fanula Papazoglu suggested instead that Bardylis was a descendant of the Lyncestis dynasts (Sirras, etc.), whereas Miltiades Hatzopulos in 1984 recommended that Bardylis was a Dassaretian king, and Pierre Cabanes, the monographist of the Illyrian Kingdom also accepted this thesis. This is the picture in a nutshell, the current article should be improved accordingly. Pasztilla (talk) 11:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Also for Dassaretis being economically poor: it had been the craddle of the Maliq culture since the Neolithic Age where (in Vashtëmi) one of the earliest European farming sites was also discovered recently, and the fertile plain of the present day Korça Basin continued to be intensively used as an agricultural land during the ancient times, too. It is well known that the development of the agriculture and shifting from transhumance to wheat cultivating in these centuries resulted in growing population = more soldiers = more powerful Illyrians. Pasztilla (talk) 11:52, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bardylis the Dardanian 

message: : Please make yourself acquainted with WP:BRD: When your Bold edit here was Reverted here, your next step should be to start a Discussion in the talk page. Please also read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:EDITWAR. I have reverted back to the current consensus version and started the discussion for you.
What you call  (bardh=white+yll=star) is one of the possible etymologies discussed in the section "Etymology", where it is stated that reliable sources consider it a folk etymology. And even if it can be shown that this is a correct etymology, this discussion should be kept in the "Etymology" section. The modern Albanian name does still not merit a place in the lede.
In Wikipedia, we follow the usage of reliable sources in English, see WP:RS. If you can show that reliable English-language sources use the modern Albanian version of the name, it will be added. If not, it stays out. --T*U (talk) 06:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanian name?