Talk:Carbon dioxide/Archive 1

message: Atmospheric CO<SUB>2</SUB> has increased about 25 percent since the early 1800s, with an estimated increase of 10 percent since 1958
:Anyone know what it increased from? Like, from 0.04% to 0.05% or something? Ed Poor
::Well, everything except nitrogen, oxygen, and argon totals under 1 percent, and is generally measured in parts per million. Those concentrations are significant. Vicki Rosenzweig, Monday, June 24, 2002
:Well, I'm getting better at this Internet-thingie. I just found the answer to my own question!
:"Carbon dioxide, CO<SUB>2</SUB>, is one of the gases in our atmosphere, being uniformly distributed over the earth's surface at a concentration of about 0.033% or 330 ppm." <SUB>2</SUB>/CO<SUB>2</SUB>.html
Anyone know the ammount of CO<SUB>2</SUB> that nature produces each year? Animals and humans? How much does it consume? 144.173.6.79
:(SEWilco 08:30, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Absolute value which is base of increase?

message: (don't quite know how this works, trying my way here...)
I was looking for the density of CO<SUB>2</SUB> at normal conditions, and the best the CO<SUB>2</SUB> page could say was 1.5 times as dense as air. Someone ought to put in a proper number for it (my guess is about 1 g/m3)
  - Heikki (at) lsd.dk
: It currently says "Its density at 298K is 1.98 kg m-3, about 1.5 times that of air.", so I think this issue is resolved. SEWilco 19:42, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Density of CO<SUB>2</SUB>

message: Changed user:SEWilco's "the strongest of the minor greenhouse gases" back to "a greenhouse gas" since "minor greenhouse gas" is not a technical term that conveys any meaning; the only reason for the edit seems to be to attach the word "minor" to CO2's greenhouse activity in order to downplay the global warming connection. 
Also corrected the goal of Kyoto: reduction of CO<SUB>2</SUB> emissions, not reduction of CO<SUB>2</SUB> emissions of industrialized countries. 
Also added a sentence about debate of size of CO<SUB>2</SUB>'s effect. AxelBoldt 09:26, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  Read the Kyoto Protocol.  It limits the CO<SUB>2</SUB> emissions of industrialized countries, not other countries.  It also repeats that the industrialized countries commit themselves to pay all the expenses for developing countries to follow the requirements and deal with climate change (even natural change).  The economic issues are repeated several times in the Protocol and the UNFCCC parent document. SEWilco 19:50, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Significance of CO<SUB>2</SUB> greenhouse, Kyoto

message: Ed, please stop this watering down of global warming stuff. Already we have the pointless "controvery" and "hypothesis" articles. Now we have yet another "some". "Some" believe that CO<SUB>2</SUB> is released from the gills of magical leprechauns. -- Tarquin 14:51, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: How can I satisfy you, Tarquin? Is the official position of Wikipedia that CO<SUB>2</SUB> causes global warming? Or is Wikipedia neutral (see NPOV) on this point? --Uncle Ed 15:34, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  as they stand, the stuff on global warming does not seem like NPOV to me. There is far too much emphasis on the objections -- Tarquin 19:49, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

text: Okay, then let's work together to add more argumens in favor of the global warming theory. Is there any evidence proving CO<SUB>2</SUB> causes global warming, that isn't in the 'pedia but should be? Are there any prominent scientists who endorse the GW view? How about more endorsements from politicians or environmentalist groups (just kidding :-)? Seriously, I'm not looking to make the Wikipedia come out against the GW theory; if there's a lack of balance, let's work together on it. --Uncle Ed 15:10, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

text: As has been mentioned, there are other pages dealing with greenhouse effect, global warming, global warming/temp (new GW page), climate change, as well as individual components and issues.  Can we compartmentalize this so there is only a small summary of CO<SUB>2</SUB>'s role here, with links for detail?  We can't list everything about CO<SUB>2</SUB> here anyway -- its production during combustion should be in an article about the chemistry of combustion, the hazards of CO<SUB>2</SUB> clouds should be mentioned in a volcano article and perhaps a Hazardous Materials data sheet, etc. SEWilco 20:09, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

text: One thing which should be here is mention of the estimated effect of CO<SUB>2</SUB> in the greenhouse effect, so other articles don't have to mention various other figures.  We're doing that in the water vapor article.  These will be estimated effects, because we don't understand all the factors yet (yes, the IPCC says that too).  But people curious about one material will know where to find the info. Wiki should have facts, but if the facts are fuzzy then that's what should be reported.  If we have estimates, listing them will at least help readers see the known range.  SEWilco 20:09, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

text: Oh, I forgot anthropogenic global warming article exists.  As "global warming/temp" and "climate change" indicate, there is a difference between the fact that change exists, a temperature change upward ("global warming"), and the cause of climate change (no matter what type of change). SEWilco 20:15, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ed, unlike you, I do not think that NPOV is achieved by a list of all arguments. That makes a tennis match, not an encyclopedia article. Just take a look at free trade: it's an unreadable mess. Here's a question for you: which countries do the opponents of GW come from? -- Tarquin 09:04, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be oversimplifying my "thoughts". I don't really believe that listing all arguments is required for neutrality. It is, however, a judgment call to decide whether a particular argument merits inclusion. But to answer your question with a question, as we Jews are noted for doing: which countries do the opponents of "Zionism is racism" come from? --Uncle Ed 14:00, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Global Warming

message: :Air with 5% CO<SUB>2</SUB> causes perceptible increased respiration, 6-10% results in shortness of breath, headaches, dizziness, sweating and general restlessness, 10-15% causes impaired coordination and abrupt muscle contractions, 20-30% causes loss of consciousness and convulsions, over 30% can cause death. <SUB>2</SUB>.htm
::Discussion of toxicity must include mention of time periods involved.  OSHA limits are 30,000 ppm (3%) for a ten-minute exposure and 5000 ppm (0.5%) for workday exposures.  Now, obviously these limits are set within safe margins, but since a prolonged 5% exposure does result in blood acidosis, necessitating "increased respiration", the question is, how long can the body continue to exert itself at that level before exhaustion occurs?  I don't know.  Shimmin 19:54, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: Here's what the CDC has to say.  In summary, NIOSH describes concentrations above 40,000 ppm (4%) as "immediately dangerous to life and health".  The basis for this are studies showing intoxication after 30 minutes at 5% and unconcsciousness after a few minutes at 7-10%.  Human fatality after 5 minutes at 9% has been documented. Shimmin 22:32, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: It's deadly!

message: mentions deadly "carbon dioxide springs" in Italy, in the context of unaccounted-for greenhouse gases entering the atmosphere. The researchers give their phone numbers, but don't bother to do the math which shows that by their own estimates, the total from all such "springs" is less than one volcano -- they imply that the springs' contribution rivals that of all the world's volcanoes but admit that no one has measured this contribution. --Uncle Ed 19:49, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deadly springs in Italy or more GWT propaganda? 

message: This looks like a contradiction to me:
:If the CO<SUB>2</SUB> concentration is too high, then all hemoglobin is saturated with carbon dioxide and no oxygen transport takes place (even if plenty of oxygen is in the air)
:The CO<SUB>2</SUB> bounded to hemoglobin is not competing with oxygen binding since it binds to amino acids rather than hemo molecules.
Is there something I am missing?
--Pinzo 23:39, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  CO<SUB>2</SUB> in hemoblobin 

message: I am not sure about this sentence
:Carbon Dioxide is the primary gas respirated by plants
AFAIK plant respirate oxigen, since they are aerobic. CO<SUB>2</SUB> is taken as the raw material for photosynthesis, but they are
two separated processes. 
If there is no counter-argument, I'll change in a few days.
--Pinzo 00:03, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (William M. Connolley 21:57, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plant respiration 

message: JonGwynne, go read Percent#Confusion from the use of percentages. 
Then come back, and we can discuss redundancy as well.  — Gene Nygaard 20:54, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Percent increase confusion 

message: The problem with simply saying that CO2 has increased by 40% is that without context, someone who didn't know any better might falsely be led to believe that this represents an enormous increase in the overall amount of CO2.  It is important to put the 110ppm increase in perspective.  While the difference between 270ppvm and 380ppvm maybe seem large, that is only because the amounts themselves are so small.  Put in perspective, the increase represents 0.01% of the Earth's atmosphere.  Maybe you have a better way of expressing this than I have been able to come up with.  If so, let's talk about it.  But I will absolutely not let the 40% figure stand on its own because it is deceptive.  So, as I said before, if we're going to use percentages to illustrate the increase, then we're going to give an accurate picture.  Otherwise, we can simply let the raw data stand on its own and talk about increases in terms of ppvm or µL/L or whatever unit of measurement seems to work best.  What do you think?--JonGwynne 14:46, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: (William M. Connolley 17:09, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not trying to minimize anything.  I'm simply putting the thing in perspective.  The fact is that the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is very small.  This seems to be a fact you'd like to wave away or disguise with misleading percentages, but if there is evidence that such a small increase of CO<SUB>2</SUB> is going to have such a large effect on climate, why not show evidence of this?--JonGwynne 10:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  (William M. Connolley 11:40, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Percentages

message: How many reverts has User:JonGwynne done to this article today. Appears to me that it is more than three by a bit. Where do we report this behavior? Of course JG will say none, as he never uses revert in edit summaries. -Vsmith 23:40, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I also hardly ever revert someone else's edit, though I may apply similar edits from time to time as the situation requires.  I grew weary of WMC's whining about excessive reverts  - though he certainly is the last one to complain about other people reverting his stuff.  Come to think of it, you're in a pretty poor position to complain yourself.  Aren't you worried about appearing hypocritical?--JonGwynne 23:55, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 revert rule 

message: I'm protecting the page. I've reverted because I notice that "Some environmentalists object to attention being drawn to the proportion of the increase; perhaps because they feel it it an attempt to marginalize the increase. They prefer to emphasize the 40% figure, possibly because it is larger and appears to be much more dramatic than the 0.01% figure and also serves to support their claims that anthropogenic carbon dioxide is a serious problem which needs to be urgently addressed. These environmentalists, some of them very extreme in their views, also don't seem to like discussions of the fact that current estimates of the total effect of all atmospheric carbon dioxide (anthropogenic and otherwise) amounts to 4% of the total greenhouse effect." contains at least one weasel word. I'd suggest you blokes nut it out on the talk page. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:39, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protected 

message: OK, you heard the admin...  Let's get this sorted.  The issue in question is whether or not to mention that the total increase of CO<SUB>2</SUB> over the entirety of the Industrial Revolution is claimed by experts to amount to 110ppmv which is 0.011% of the total volume of the atmosphere.  Does anyone challenge the factual basis of this claim?  If not, why not mention it?--JonGwynne 12:58, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, 110 ppm is equal to 0.0110% (note the last zero for precision), but .0110% is .0110 pph (parts per hundred). Why do we need the redundancy. The other lower numbers with all those leading zeros are absurd as well as redundant and totally unneeded, simply adding clutter (presumably to make the numbers seem less significant, and thereby POV). Vsmith 16:44, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't really mind if you wanted to say .01% instead of 0.01% (or .011 or .0110 if you prefer).  It doesn't look right to me without the leading zero but if that's what it takes to get you to sign off on it, then I'll learn to live with it.--JonGwynne 17:18, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, perhaps I mistated, it isn't so much that first zero as it is all those between the dec. and the first non-zero number. This is usually solved by sci. notation, but either would be redundant here as the ppmv values are perfectly valid and should be understandable by most serious readers. If not they can easily click to a discussion of ppm. Again, the problem is redundancy and  misleading slant. Vsmith 17:45, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You object to necessary decimal places?  There are going to be people for whom scientific notation is either confusing, unfamiliar or both - but not traditional percentages.  What's wrong with illustrating the point with traditional percentages.  It is an accurate way of conveying the information.  It may not be your way, but it is no less correct for that.--JonGwynne 18:01, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: In the literature, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is discussed almost exclusively in units of ppmv.  In terms of understanding how the numbers presented in the encyclopedia article relate to numbers they may read in other sources, it seems most sensible to use the units readers are most likely to encounter elsewhere.  However, it is also a service to our readers to convert those numbers at least once into other terms they may be more familiar with, such as percentages.  The initial mention of the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration is the sensible place to do this, where we express it in ppmv, in µL/L, and as percentage.  Past that point, I prefer to stick with a single set of units. Shimmin 19:00, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
(William M. Connolley 21:26, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not attempting to "minimise the increase in CO<SUB>2</SUB>".  It can't be minimized.  It is what it is.  I would prefer to simply state the increase in ppm and leave it at that.  You're the one who's insisting not bringing percentages into the discussion.  The fact that you are so worried about cosmetics suggests that it is you who are trying to maximize it by calling attention to the 40% increase without putting it in the proper context.  Yeah, on its own, 40% sounds like a lot.  But when you consider that the 40% is only 0.01% of the total volume of the atmosphere, that puts things in context.  When you consider that CO<SUB>2</SUB> contributes to roughly 4% of the overall global warming effect and that even if the affect of extra CO<SUB>2</SUB> is linear (many scientists believe it isn't - they believe that the initial increases from 260ppm had more effect that the later increased have had) that 40% increase in CO<SUB>2</SUB> represents, at best, a 1.6% increase in the total greenhouse effect and, in all likelihood, less than that.--JonGwynne 08:40, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  (William M. Connolley 16:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't make the 4% figure up.  I used the numbers given on the greenhouse effect page.  It says that the atmosphere, as a whole, absorbs 16% of incoming solar radiation.  According to the same page, CO<SUB>2</SUB> accounts for "about 26%" of the effect of all greenhouse gasses combined.  Multiply 16% by 26% and you get 4.16%.  --JonGwynne 00:16, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: The overall CO<SUB>2</SUB> increase as a percentages of the volume of the entire atmosphere is not a "useless number".  Quite the contrary, it is a very usefu one because it puts the increase in context.  You just don't like that context because it undermines your "The World is Ending!" mantra.  A mere 110ppm increase sounds too insignificant, so you have to tart it up with a percentages to make it seem bigger than it is.  What no one likes to talk about is the fact that the scientists currently working on researching climate change have a vested professional interest in turning out dire predictions and proof that human activity is causing the problems they claim to have found.  They love to shout down scientists who take money from industry but never reflect on the fact that they're part of an "industry" too:  the global-warming research industry.  If someone proved that the temperature changes that are showing up are either naturally occurring or maybe not even happening at all, all those atmospheric scientists and climate-model math-wizards working on government grants would suddenly have to find work in the private-sector and some of them have the people-skills of a wolverine on PCP.  --JonGwynne 00:16, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Jon, this is a conspiracy theory, but not a good argument. Reading your comments I ask myself what you know about science? Have you ever done research at an university or a similar instituton? Disqualifying all research work in this area is easy but not very convincing, at least it is not better than any other of the conspiracy theories. -- mkrohn 01:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: It appears that most of us are in agreement, or nearly so, that the numerical presentation of the current page is in general acceptable (maybe minor quibbles here and there). However, JonGwynne seems to be obstinately determined to impose his correct view of the numbers and doesn't care to listen to the majority. His determination to impose his version was basically the crux of the problem before and I don't think he has changed his mind. Take a look at the similar ongoing battle over numbers at Greenhouse gas. My reading is that the rest of us (5 or 6 involved in the discussion) could easily reach a consensus on how the numbers should be presented. -Vsmith 02:52, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh please.  I have repeatedly stated that I have no problem with a simple numeric presentation (i.e.  CO<SUB>2</SUB> has risen X ppm between year Y and Z).  It is the persistent attempts to present a once-sided and alarmist percentage and refusal to accept any attempts to place the increases in perspective which are causing the problem.--JonGwynne 21:56, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The 0.01% issue

message: (William M. Connolley 13:37, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What about to simply say that "Since ..., the total amount of atmospheric CO<SUB>2</SUB> has increased by 40 percent i.e. by 0.011 percent of the volume of the atmosphere"? The fact that many environmentalists don't like facts that don't sound sufficiently scary is a pretty obvious fact - although unfortunately it's not obvious to everyone - but I am not sure whether this observation belongs to the page about carbon dioxide. Does it sound as a reasonable compromise? --Lumidek 07:02, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  (William M. Connolley 10:28, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  0.01% has no value for those who are not interested in science. I understand that certain facts - like the fact that the CO<SUB>2</SUB> concentration in the atmosphere is negligible anyway - are not convenient for enemies of science who prefer political activism - and who prefer scientific fraud over honest but inconvenient results. But you should not assume that the readers of Wikipedia are people like you. The readers of Wikipedia are people who are, unlike you, interested in these questions and they're looking for data; otherwise they would not open it in the first place. The notation "ppm" incidentally is not quite comprehensible to most non-scientists, and it should be expanded. --Lumidek 14:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you translate small volumes to "negligible"?  The "effects" of many things present in small proportions are not negligible.  I suspect an amount of nerve gas comparable to CO<SUB>2</SUB> concentrations would be considered quite large.  Drugs present in the human body in much smaller concentrations are considered quite significant.  Similarly for the green house effect of CO<SUB>2</SUB>.--Silverback 07:10, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text:  (William M. Connolley 20:10, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no "virtue" here.  Unlike you, we're not trying to "spin" anything.  The number is what it is.  Just because you don't like its implications, that doesn't mean you should be entitled to censor it.--JonGwynne 21:56, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text:  (William M. Connolley 22:01, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:   I haven't failed to answer, because you didn't ask a question.  You made two statements of your own personal opinion and while you're certainly entitled to it, that doesn't change the fact that it is your personal opinion.  Thus, of limited relevance to the matter at hand.  --JonGwynne 22:46, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text:  (William M. Connolley 23:06, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you ask a question, I'll answer.  You haven't asked one, therefore I haven't answered.  As I said before, your personal opinions are your own and you're welcome to them.  Just don't go mistaking them for fact.  Ooops, too late!   ;->   --JonGwynne 23:10, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotect? 

message: We can't leave this page locked forever because of a dispute over one number. The only way to end the argument is for everyone to move toward an acceptable comprimise. Why can't we just include the pre-industrial ppmv, the current ppmv, and the percent of the total atmosphere that the CO<SUB>2</SUB> now represents? "Since the start of the Industrial Revolution, the atmospheric CO<SUB>2</SUB> concentration has increased from about 260 ppmv (0.0260% of total atmosphere) to 376 ppmv (0.0376% of total) - a 40% increase" - I'm not sure I have all the numbers right, but I think it puts all the information in perspective. It's a little wordy, providing information that the reader could easily calculate, but doesn't something like that say everything that we have been debating whether to include? If we just agree on something like this, the article can finally be unlocked.
--Keziah 06:32, 2005 Feb 23 (UTC)
: (William M. Connolley 09:49, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I note that listing the two different percentages allows comparison between them and uses the same units as given earlier when the percentage is given.  This follows the lead of the other atmospheric gases, which mention their respective percentage of present atmosphere.  There also is a difficulty in merely presenting the difference between the percentages, as that invites errors such as thinking that the addition of 0.01% of the volume would cause 0.01% change in concentration.  The volume of the atmosphere would expand and mess up the concentration.  I encourage giving both ppmv and percentage.  (SEWilco 09:46, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromise  

message: I would like to know what the proposed text will be before I unprotect this page. This will give me an idea whether an acceptable compromise has been made. Note here: one party may find they don't like the compromise that much. I'm actually fine with this, but some effort must be made at trying to incorporate their POV. If I can have a response that seems reasonable, then I will unlock the page. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:58, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be content with the current version as, I think, would the vast majority of the editors involved. We may discuss the µL/L or ppmv question and some other tweaks - but a consensus could readily be reached. I note the exception would probably be JonGwynne, whose insistance on his version led to the revert war and the page protection. He is currently the subject of arbitration  for his behavior here and on a variety of other pages. As a result of that arbitration I would hope he would be less inclined to do battle and more inclined to rational discussion. That however, remains to be seen. Continued protection based primarily on the behavior of that one user is, in my view, unwarrented. -Vsmith 16:02, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  (William M. Connolley 16:46, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: OK, sorry for taking a while to get back to you guys. Unprotecting now. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:44, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  (William M. Connolley 13:20, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page unprotection 

message: The original article of 29 Jul 01 referred to it as a colorless gas in the body of the article and that spelling has remained. On 17 Dec 02 a table (or infobox) was added with the spelling: colourless gas. Both spellings have coexisted since. Hmm.. do we need to standardize spelling here? Doesn't make much diff. to me, but colorless appears to have priority. Vsmith 16:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: (William M. Connolley 20:22, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  spelling :-)