Talk:Ikuhiko Hata

message: Since this article is about a living person, as pointed out in no uncertain terms at the top of this page, I have moved the major uncited paragraph here, until someone can add citations for every sentence. We simply cannot have uncited statements in reference to a living person.SiberioS (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced material moved... 

message: I have edited this page to make it balanced and more accurate, and to add important information which was missing from the previous version. The earlier version, as edited by Curtis Naito and others, consisted entirely of one-sided praise for Hata. It included quotes from almost every positive review of Hata's work published in English (but none of the negative ones). Some of the quotations, for example the one from Sarah Soh, were given out of context, misleadingly suggesting that scholars who are critical Hata are his admirers and supporters. The entry fails to note Soh's important critique of the way Hata has shifted position, revising his estimate of the number of "comfort women" downwards over time, because of "his political alignment with the conservative anti-redress camp in Japan that emerged in the latter half of the 1990s".(Sarah C. Soh, "The Comfort Women: Sexual Violence and Postcolonial Memory in Korea and Japan", Chicago: University of Chicago Press, p. 24.)The entry also included blurb from the cover of at least one of his books, presented as though it were a quotation from a scholarly review (see reference 45 of CurtisNaito version). The text as a whole depicted Hata as a moderate and almost universally respected figure in current Japanese history debates, and as a fierce critic of historical revisionists. This is seriously misleading.
Hata's writings (particularly his early and military history work) have certainly been praised by some scholars, and I have left this positive comment in. But his more recent work, particularly on the Nanjing Massacre and "Comfort Women" issue has also been strongly contested and criticised.(Jeff Kingston, "Contemporary Japan: History, Politics and Social Change", London: Wiley, 2012.)( Frederick R. Dickinson, "Biohazard: Unit 731 in Postwar Japanese Politics of National 'Forgetfulness'", in William R. LaFleur, Gernot Boehme and Susumu Shimazono eds., "Dark Medicine: Rationalizing Unethical Medical Research", Bloomington IN: Indiana University Press, 2008, p. 96.)(Yumiko Iida, "Rethinking Identity in Modern Japan: Nationalism as Aesthetics", London: Routledge, 2013.)(Gavan McCormack, "The Japanese Movement to 'Correct' History", In Mark Selden and Laura Hein eds. "Censoring History: Citizenship and Memory in Japan, Germany, and the United States", Armonk NY: M E Sharpe, 2000, pp. 53-73.)His pro-nationalist statements and actions (i.e. his attacks on respected historian Ienaga Saburo( Frederick R. Dickinson, "Biohazard: Unit 731 in Postwar Japanese Politics of National 'Forgetfulness'", in William R. LaFleur, Gernot Boehme and Susumu Shimazono eds., "Dark Medicine: Rationalizing Unethical Medical Research", Bloomington IN: Indiana University Press, 2008, p. 96.), support for Prime Minister Abe's 2013 visit to the Yasukuni Shrine( Nikkei Asian Review, 27 December 2013.), his recent attacks on Japan's 1993 apology to the "comfort women"(http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/31_S4.pdf.)(" Hokkaido Shinbun 21 June 2014.), and his collaboration with the far right Japan Society for History Textbook Reform, which circulates some of his writings on line with his acquiescence had all been omitted. When I added information about this to the page, it was promptly deleted again by Curtis Naito and others.
Please assist me in keeping this page balanced, informative and up-to-date, and preventing it from being turned into a misleading publicity platform for one politicised point of view.
Giant Sumatra Rat (talk) 00:33, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with adding new material to the article, but you can't delete reliably sourced material unless you have a reason to do so based on Wikipedia policy. You've been deleting swaths of reliably sourced material including the opinions of many of the world's leading historians in Japanese history. We can't just delete relevant and reliably sourced material based on personal objections. There has to be a policy-based reason why the citations are unreliable. We can discuss additions, but such extreme deletions of reliably sourced material should not be implemented unless the sources themselves are unreliable.CurtisNaito (talk) 01:36, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited to create balance 

message: I have reverted the page to the form that it was in before the recent edits and reversions by CurtisNaito, for the following reasons:
1. CurtisNaito did not respond to any of the criticisms of his version of the page given by Giant Sumatra Rat above.
2. A core and fundamental Wikipedia principle is "editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV)", which means "representing fairly, proportionally and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources". The CurtisNaito version contains disproportionate use of a mass of quotations from one point of view (favourable to Hata), and arbitrarily deletes crucial scholarly opinion and factual material critical of Hata. It is in flagrant violation of the principle of NPOV.
3. CurtisNaito explains his repeated reversions of the text to his favoured version by saying that "you can't delete reliably sourced material unless you have a reason to do so based on Wikipedia policy". But the CurtisNaito version first uploaded on 23 May this year (to which he keeps reverting) deleted the entire section headed "Criticisms" from the previously existing version of this article without any explanation. His repeated reversions delete (with absolutely no discussion or explanation) important factual information on critical comments about Hata's work, Hata's membership of the 2014 Japanese government committee on the Kono Declaration, Hata's subsequent comments about the Declaration, Hata's attacks on fellow historian Ienaga Saburo, Hata's support for the 2013 Abe visit to the Yasukuni Shrine, and Hata's relationship with the revisionist Society for History Textbook Reform.
4. The current version contains a fair, proportional and balanced account of the work of Ikuhiko Hata which takes into account all the significant views.
5. It is absolutely unacceptable for CurtisNaito to keep on reverting this article without responding properly to the serious criticisms that have been made of the fairness and neutrality of his version.
SHMandala (talk) 08:48, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing from a neutral point of view 

message: This article was one-sided, and presented only one side of important debates. Scholarly material has now been added to the article to restore balance (and a few other minor edits have been made to improve accuracy). Please do not revert to previous versions of this article without discussion on this talk page.
130.56.124.31 (talk) 04:46, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material added to improve a very one-sided article 

message: Since this article is about a living person, as pointed out in no uncertain terms at the top of this page, I have moved the major uncited paragraph here, until someone can add citations for every sentence. We simply cannot have uncited statements in reference to a living person.SiberioS (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced material moved... 

message: I have edited this page to make it balanced and more accurate, and to add important information which was missing from the previous version. The earlier version, as edited by Curtis Naito and others, consisted entirely of one-sided praise for Hata. It included quotes from almost every positive review of Hata's work published in English (but none of the negative ones). Some of the quotations, for example the one from Sarah Soh, were given out of context, misleadingly suggesting that scholars who are critical Hata are his admirers and supporters. The entry fails to note Soh's important critique of the way Hata has shifted position, revising his estimate of the number of "comfort women" downwards over time, because of "his political alignment with the conservative anti-redress camp in Japan that emerged in the latter half of the 1990s".(Sarah C. Soh, "The Comfort Women: Sexual Violence and Postcolonial Memory in Korea and Japan", Chicago: University of Chicago Press, p. 24.)The entry also included blurb from the cover of at least one of his books, presented as though it were a quotation from a scholarly review (see reference 45 of CurtisNaito version). The text as a whole depicted Hata as a moderate and almost universally respected figure in current Japanese history debates, and as a fierce critic of historical revisionists. This is seriously misleading.
Hata's writings (particularly his early and military history work) have certainly been praised by some scholars, and I have left this positive comment in. But his more recent work, particularly on the Nanjing Massacre and "Comfort Women" issue has also been strongly contested and criticised.(Jeff Kingston, "Contemporary Japan: History, Politics and Social Change", London: Wiley, 2012.)( Frederick R. Dickinson, "Biohazard: Unit 731 in Postwar Japanese Politics of National 'Forgetfulness'", in William R. LaFleur, Gernot Boehme and Susumu Shimazono eds., "Dark Medicine: Rationalizing Unethical Medical Research", Bloomington IN: Indiana University Press, 2008, p. 96.)(Yumiko Iida, "Rethinking Identity in Modern Japan: Nationalism as Aesthetics", London: Routledge, 2013.)(Gavan McCormack, "The Japanese Movement to 'Correct' History", In Mark Selden and Laura Hein eds. "Censoring History: Citizenship and Memory in Japan, Germany, and the United States", Armonk NY: M E Sharpe, 2000, pp. 53-73.)His pro-nationalist statements and actions (i.e. his attacks on respected historian Ienaga Saburo( Frederick R. Dickinson, "Biohazard: Unit 731 in Postwar Japanese Politics of National 'Forgetfulness'", in William R. LaFleur, Gernot Boehme and Susumu Shimazono eds., "Dark Medicine: Rationalizing Unethical Medical Research", Bloomington IN: Indiana University Press, 2008, p. 96.), support for Prime Minister Abe's 2013 visit to the Yasukuni Shrine( Nikkei Asian Review, 27 December 2013.), his recent attacks on Japan's 1993 apology to the "comfort women"(http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/31_S4.pdf.)(" Hokkaido Shinbun 21 June 2014.), and his collaboration with the far right Japan Society for History Textbook Reform, which circulates some of his writings on line with his acquiescence had all been omitted. When I added information about this to the page, it was promptly deleted again by Curtis Naito and others.
Please assist me in keeping this page balanced, informative and up-to-date, and preventing it from being turned into a misleading publicity platform for one politicised point of view.
Giant Sumatra Rat (talk) 00:33, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with adding new material to the article, but you can't delete reliably sourced material unless you have a reason to do so based on Wikipedia policy. You've been deleting swaths of reliably sourced material including the opinions of many of the world's leading historians in Japanese history. We can't just delete relevant and reliably sourced material based on personal objections. There has to be a policy-based reason why the citations are unreliable. We can discuss additions, but such extreme deletions of reliably sourced material should not be implemented unless the sources themselves are unreliable.CurtisNaito (talk) 01:36, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited to create balance 

message: I have reverted the page to the form that it was in before the recent edits and reversions by CurtisNaito, for the following reasons:
1. CurtisNaito did not respond to any of the criticisms of his version of the page given by Giant Sumatra Rat above.
2. A core and fundamental Wikipedia principle is "editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV)", which means "representing fairly, proportionally and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources". The CurtisNaito version contains disproportionate use of a mass of quotations from one point of view (favourable to Hata), and arbitrarily deletes crucial scholarly opinion and factual material critical of Hata. It is in flagrant violation of the principle of NPOV.
3. CurtisNaito explains his repeated reversions of the text to his favoured version by saying that "you can't delete reliably sourced material unless you have a reason to do so based on Wikipedia policy". But the CurtisNaito version first uploaded on 23 May this year (to which he keeps reverting) deleted the entire section headed "Criticisms" from the previously existing version of this article without any explanation. His repeated reversions delete (with absolutely no discussion or explanation) important factual information on critical comments about Hata's work, Hata's membership of the 2014 Japanese government committee on the Kono Declaration, Hata's subsequent comments about the Declaration, Hata's attacks on fellow historian Ienaga Saburo, Hata's support for the 2013 Abe visit to the Yasukuni Shrine, and Hata's relationship with the revisionist Society for History Textbook Reform.
4. The current version contains a fair, proportional and balanced account of the work of Ikuhiko Hata which takes into account all the significant views.
5. It is absolutely unacceptable for CurtisNaito to keep on reverting this article without responding properly to the serious criticisms that have been made of the fairness and neutrality of his version.
SHMandala (talk) 08:48, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing from a neutral point of view 

message: This article was one-sided, and presented only one side of important debates. Scholarly material has now been added to the article to restore balance (and a few other minor edits have been made to improve accuracy). Please do not revert to previous versions of this article without discussion on this talk page.
130.56.124.31 (talk) 04:46, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material added to improve a very one-sided article 

message: Hello everyone. The section on the Nanking death toll contains the following text:
"In November 1997 at a conference in Princeton University Hata was confronted by Iris Chang, author of the book The Rape of Nanking, who asked him why he doubted the testimony of Japanese POWs who had stated that hundreds of thousands of Chinese were killed in the atrocity. When Hata replied that torture and coercion of Japanese POWs made their testimony unreliable Chang walked out and the audience became unruly, shouting Hata down and yelling insults at him."
A careful reading of the text as it stands can only state that both Chang and Hata are referring to Japanese soldiers who "testified" [in a legal proceeding? When? Where?] that hundreds of thousands of Chinese were killed. If so, would Chang have been so bold as to present, and would the moderator have been so amiss as to allow her to present, evidence given by men under torture? Common sense rebels against such a conclusion. It therefore seems much more likely that the Japanese Nanking veterans whom Chang was referring to at least included some of the many Japanese Nanking veterans who have testified and not as current or former POWs but at their own free will and indeed at considerable personal risk. Since it is impossible to resolve these important questions from the above description of the conference, I feel the contributor or someone with more free time than I have at the moment should render it sufficiently concrete so as to resolve them. Finally, even if Chang was not referring to any veterans who gave testimony free of duress, which I find unlikely for the reasons noted above, many such Japanese Nanking veterans have come forward in the two decades since 1997 in collections of letters, documentary and television appearances and books, though I admit most of this is in Japanese. My point is that, as it stands, the above text seems to imply that most or all of the Japanese veterans who have described the consistent pattern of widespread brutality committed by the Imperial Army in China and elsewhere in Asia are either brainwashed or coerced, and that this is the view of a "neutral," high-ranking Japanese historian, since that is precisely how Professor Hata is portrayed throughout this entire article. For my part, I dispute the view that he is as objective a historian as the tenor of this entire article implies, but that is merely my opinion. Cheers. Gunnermanz (talk) 10:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese POW Testimonies Re Nanking