Talk:Cleveland/Archive 1

message: I've added a Cleveland Rapid Transit page, but everything I know about the system comes from the Web and various railfan sources.  It would be great if a local could look this over and fix any mistakes.
--Jfruh 23:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clevelanders!  Please contribute to the rapid transit page 

message: I have made a number of changes to remove people and businesses from the Cleveland page where it said they were from Cleveland but weren't.  Now my suggestion to deal with the rest of the non-Cleveland  information is to move it out of the Cleveland article and put it in the Greater Cleveland article.  We should then add a comment to the top of the Clevland page referring people who want information on the Greater Cleveland area to that page.
The areas that would be moved are the references to companies outside Cleveland such as Progressive and the sections on colleges and theaters that are outside of Cleveland.  I'm not sure why a list of theater companies is in an encyclopedia at all, and at least two of those listed are in Summit County, but in any case only Cleveland things should be in the Cleveland article.  The Cuyahoga County Airport is another candidate since it isn't in the city.  Any thoughts before I make the changes?  --Beirne 13:41, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
:I am ok as long as we move, not delete, all the content. --Pmeisel 16:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland-only Cleveland page 

message: Could someone provide a source that says that Cleveland city schools spend the most per pupil?  Otherwise I will cut this line because I just don't believe it. DirectorStratton 23:23, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
I can look for one.  My understanding was that it was not necessarily the top spender, but it spends far more per pupil than do many districts with better academic ratings.  And the stats I saw were for the county, not the state, but I'll check on it and get back.
:I found some state statistics, here: http://www.ode.state.oh.us/school_finance/simulation_fiscal_analysis/EFM_exp_per_pupil.asp
Cleveland city schools spent $11,121 per pupil, in 2004, when the statewide average per pupil was $8,755. There are, however, other school districts with higher per-pupil spending, even within Cuyahoga county, such as ClevelandHeights-University Heights, at $14,442 per pupil, and Beachwood, at $18,685 per pupil. Mamawrites 12:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public School Funding 

message: Fellow Clevelanders, if you would be interested in helping to put together a bid to host Wikimania 2006 in our fair city, please come on over to m:Wikimania_2006/Cleveland. Mamawrites 18:13, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikimania 2006 

message: I've been researching the history of Cleveland lately and I was thinking, perhaps an article should be started about it.  I think that if we started this page, then maybe we could shorten the history section on the main Cleveland article and cut down the size of the article in the process.  What do you think?  --  Clevelander 23:29, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely.  I think it would be a fantastic addition, and it would absolutely cut down on the size of the main article.  I'll be glad to help out any way I can...once I get some sleep after working on the featured article nomination! :)  I'm sure you know about this, but just in case...the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History is indispensible in an article about the history of Cleveland.  That should give you (at least!) a good head start.  Good luck, and if I can help, please let me know! PacknCanes | say something! 04:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was actually using the book "The Encyclopedia of Cleveland History" by Van Tassel-Brabowski.  I had no idea it was also available online!  Thanks!  --  Clevelander 20:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The history of Cleveland 

message: Please do not change the title of any section in the article, unless you are adding something substantial to that section.  There's no need for a section called "Cleveland Culture" in an article about Cleveland; what other city's culture would we be describing?  Pittsburgh?  I can assure you that renaming "Culture of New York City" (and "History of New York" too, for that matter) would be at the top of the list should the New York City article ever come up for nomination as a featured article again.  Thanks -- PacknCanes | say something! 21:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize for renaming the Culture and Sports sections.  It will not happen again, I assure you.  No hard feelings.  --  Clevelander 22:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No harm done.  Thanks; I know you have good intentions. PacknCanes | say something! 23:19, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing titles of sections 

message: Check it out here!  I encourage fellow Clevelanders and Cleveland experts alike to give this article a read over and correct any mistakes or add any missing facts.  I will be adding more to it soon (information, photographs, a timeline, etc.)  --  Clevelander 02:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Cleveland History article is now online! 

message: I'd like to extend my thanks and appreciation to EurekaLott, Beirne, Clevelander, and all others who have contributed to this article to get it to featured status.  For posterity's sake, here's the link to the article as it looked at the time it was promoted to a featured article.  If you had seen where this article was before peer review, you know what an accomplishment it was to get it up to featured status in less than a month; thank you to all, and fantastic job! PacknCanes | say something! 12:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank you!! 

message: Calling all fellow Clevelanders!  Be sure to regularly contribute and/or expand the new Cleveland portal now online! -- Clevelander 20:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland Portal 

message: How do you guys feel about the giant table of sports teams that was recently added to the article? I don't know if it adds anything meaningful. Much of it is a duplication of material covered in the text, and it adds more bulk to an already large article. Is there a good reason to keep it around? - EurekaLott 02:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I scaled it down and cleaned it up a bit to match that of the Chicago one.  I would support keeping it because it stays consistent with other big city articles on Wikipedia.  It is a bit bulky, though. - Clevelander 02:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This version is a definite improvement over the initial table, but I still doubt that it's needed. Allow me to explain my thoughts for each of the table's columns: name, league, and venue are adequately addressed in the text. Listing the sport is redundant when the league name makes that perfectly clear, the year founded is something I'd expect to find on the individual team articles, and including the logo serves no clear purpose. Consistency is a noble goal, but in this case, I think keeping the article size under control is more important. - EurekaLott 07:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to delete the Cleveland Rockers part of this table...they are no longer around.  Someone may want to edit the page to show that the Rockers did exist at one time, though. BigMar992 20:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a short line about the Rockers. BigMar992 20:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe I will, if I can find the time.Hx823 (talk) 22:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sports table 

message: Speaking of other nicknames, as a native Clevelander, I've never heard "The Heart of New Connecticut."  Is this nickname verifiable?  If so, from what source did it come?    The only thing a google search of the term turned up was the title of this book:  Avery, Elroy McKendree. A History of Cleveland and Its Environs: the Heart of New Connecticut.  (Chicago: Lewis Publishing Co. 1918.)  This was the only reference to the nickname, and it barely filled two search pages.  I hardly think that it merits inclusion in this article, and I'm going to remove it for that reason.  If someone can find substantial evidence that it's widely known and/or used, please feel free to put it back in, with an appropriate citation.  On a related note, I think that "The North Coast" is fairly well known; it's frequently used in the names of area businesses, at least in their advertisements.
I've put in the nicknames section a brief mention of "Mistake on the Lake." This has been reverted and I think I'll revert it back (without starting a revert war, I hope).  In brief, I think Mistake on the Lake is a much better known nickname than "America's North Coast" or more than half the other nicknames listed in that section.  I don't think that Wikipedia is supposed to censor reasonable reports of well known sayings, nor is it supposed to report only a sympathetic point of view - rather it's supposed to be a neutral point of view. "Mistake ..." as a well known nickname is a fact, that I'm sure all Clevelanders have heard of and know how to deal with.
BTW, I spent part of my childhood growing up in Wadsworth and Alliance, and watching Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly.  I like "Greater North East Ohioland" (I don't think this nickname made it!)  Go Browns!
:Hmm, well, you may have something there.  Although I am senstive to that particular name, I believe that yes, Wikipedia must have a neutral point of view.  It shall stay. -- Clevelander 03:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, I should have read the entire article.  M on the L is already mentioned lower down in the article.  I guess I just have an aversion to all those promotional nicknames that most cities have - and was looking for some balance.  I'll let others judge how the overall balance now stands and make the right edit.  Smallbones 06:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The MotL nickname definitely needs to remain in the article, but since it isn't a presently used nickname, perhaps it is best left in the "history" section, rather than at the top.  I'd toss some of the other nicks down in history as well, including "Best Location in the Nation", which was probably last commonly used at the same time as MotL. Avogadro 14:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed both nicknames "Best Location in the Nation" and "Mistake on the Lake" from the introduction section.  They now can be found in the history section. -- Clevelander 12:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the interest of making the article seem less like a promotional piece, I removed a couple of the less commonly used nicknames. I also deleted a recently-added paragraph from the history section because it read more like a newspaper editorial than an encyclopedia article. Please feel free to re-insert it, if you can manage to remove its POV statements. - EurekaLott 07:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that you removed the background reference I added on the origin of the "best location in the nation" slogan.  Did you find it to be inaccurate?  IIRC the page at the external link I provided is credible.  (It's still extant in the "History of Cleveland, Ohio" entry.) Mapsax 19:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I only took it out because it was in both places, and because the Cleveland article is already a bit larger than it should be. I don't doubt its credibility - it's just that we can only afford so much detail in the main article. Do you feel it needs to be included? - EurekaLott 20:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, as long as it remains somewhere :) Mapsax 21:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Summary style. Generally, there should be a summary of the main article rather than simply a link. older ≠ wiser 19:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicknames - Mistake on the Lake 

message: I made some small changes to the technology information.  I clarified a little of the text on the OneCleveland-Intel arrangement and I added a bit about current delays.  I did that (and I am writing this) as part of a class project that involves learning about Wiki's.  Please give my work a careful look and update it as the Digital Communities project (hopefully) goes forward.  I don't think anything I did was controversial (or even substantial), but I wanted to take the time to explain it. CyberGroup 07:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technology 

message: User:Joececchini has been adding unsourced nicknames to city articles. A reliable source must be referenced for this nickname before it can be allowed back in the article. -- Dalbury(Talk) 09:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody is claiming your edits were vandalism. It's just that the article already covers the nickname in more detail in the history section, and there's no need to add bloat by duplicating information. See the talk a couple sections up from this for some older discussion. - EurekaLott 01:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, considering I'm from Pittsburgh, I would've likely got assumptions that it was vandalism, that's all. I didn't know it was already covered. Jgera5 01:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nickname ''Mistake by the Lake'' 

message: Anybody else feel that the artilce goes too in-depth about Case Western?  I feel that the information included there goes beyond the scope of an article that is supposed to be about Cleveland.  The superfluous information (i.e. stuff about the new president and his mission) can easily be found out by clicking on the link to the CWRU page.  I will edit this informaiton out if other agree with me.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hutchk26 (talk • contribs) .
:I pruned the section and left a note for the user who added it. - EurekaLott 07:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Heavy an Emphasis on CWRU? 

message: Has anyone come across the world city or global city article?  It mentions Cleveland as a "potential city" of earning world-class city status.  Does anyone think this should be mentioned in the Cleveland city article?  For an example, check out the article on Kansas City, MO...[second paragraph]   OhioDesi 00:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it would be appropriate to mention it. The Global city article does mention Cleveland, but doesn't rank it very highly. The Globalization and World Cities Study Group refers to the city as a minor regional-global center. I'm reverting the addition. - EurekaLott 13:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World City 

message: A few days ago, an anon added this:
:Several inner-city neighborhoods have begun to gentrify in recent years, particularly on the city's west side, with areas such as Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit-Shoreway and Clifton-Edgewater attracting increasing numbers of artists, gays, and young professionals. A live-work zoning overlay for the city's near east side, meanwhile, has facilitated the transformation of old industrial buildings into loft spaces for artists and professionals.
Should we include it?  Is there a source for this information? -- Clevelander 01:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The information is accurate. I replaced the deleted section and added a couple references. In the future, please do a little research before reverting reasonable additions. - EurekaLott 03:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent neighborhoods addition 

message: I've nominated the Cleveland article along with the History of Cleveland, Ohio article for Good Article status. -- Clevelander 13:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the Wikipedia:Good article nomination, as the Good article feature is meant to "identify good content, which may have the potential to become featured after some development" - and this is already featured. Poulsen 18:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I understand.  I should have read over that part before nominating it. -- Clevelander 19:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article nomination 

message: Because the article was getting on the chunky side again, I deleted three tables that duplicated the article's prose. I removed the list of sister cities, which is partially covered in the text and completely at Sister Cities of Cleveland, Ohio; the sports team table, which presented almost zero new information; and the table of neighboring suburbs, which in addition to duplicating the narrative, awkwardly attempted to classify every community in a single cardinal direction. - EurekaLott 01:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimming 

message: I just added "historic" in front of the description of Cleveland being in what was the Western Reserve, but I started wondering why the WR is mentioned in the intro at all.  It's not used to describe the region today, and it's already mentioned in the history section.  Because of its low importance, that should be sufficient.  What do you think?  Confiteordeo 06:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine. -- Clevelander 11:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since no one else has weighed in on this, I removed the reference and cleaned up the sentence.  Confiteordeo 22:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Reserve 

message: There is a survey in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada. 
:This proposal would allow for this article to be located at Cleveland instead of Cleveland, Ohio, bringing articles for American cities into line with articles for cities such as Paris and Toronto.--DaveOinSF 16:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However the proposal would allow U.S. cities to be inconsistent with the vast majority of other U.S. cities and towns, which (with a few exceptions) all use the "city, state" convention. -Will Beback 23:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries 

message: This isn't what the AP report says.  It's actually a ranking of the safest cities, and Cleveland ranks 365 out of 371.  The list isn't even all-inclusive (it doesn't include New Orleans, for example,) since the report says that it's only based on cities that submitted crime data.  Also, I don't think it's meaningful to compare Cleveland with cities with populations under 100,000.  For the moment, I'm going to remove this info from the article, but if someone can come up with a good reason for its staying, please say something on this page and put it back in.  Confiteordeo 10:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi please provide links for this to make it accessible. Lakers 01:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seventh most dangerous city 

message: I would like to take polite exception to the current statement in the Cleveland history to the effect that Cleveland was the first large city in the USA to default on its loans. I know for a fact that New York City defaulted on its loans in 1974, and as a result was forced to lay off over 30,000 city employees. I lived on Long Island at the time, having just bought a home there at the time of the default. The lingering effects of the default and resulting layoffs cast a pall on the real estate market on Long Island that lasted for over 4 years.
David P Norby, Ph.D.
david.norby@abbott.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.36.62.140 (talk) 23:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland's loan default 1978 - not the first large city in USA to do this 

message: Hey everybody. I'm the student of Moscow State University (Department of foreign countries), Russia, and i'm on my graduation work at present. This sience work is dedicated to american cities revitalization and redevelopment. Also it is tightly connected with Cleveland. The main target is to learn the ways of revitalization in Cleveland, Oakland, Pittsburgh etc.
So, dear Clevelander or someone who interests in it, could you please describe me the way of redevelopment in your city? The main point for me is to know all about measurement that were made. When exactly did it begin? What were the steps to revitalize the city? Was the downtown take down and rebuild? Were the citizens settled apart? I'll appreciate very much for any detailed information.
Any kind of information would be very valuable for me! Thank you. Simon Freydlin Freydlins 18:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an excellent forum at urbanohio.com that you may want to check out.  That's probably the best place for your question, since this talk page is supposed to be for discussion about the Cleveland Wikipedia article.  Good luck with your research!  Confiteordeo 20:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you, very much, Confiteordeo! That could be a great source for me. Freydlins 00:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  But there is a kind of problem with registering and entering this forum... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freydlins (talk • contribs) 00:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland revitalization investigation 

message: Regarding this picture:  The bridge in the right foreground is a vertical lift bridge; that (or those) those in the left midground also seem to be of the same type; and there appear to be three high-level bridges in the background, some kind of girder bridge, a concrete arch bridge, and a cantilever bridge.  This level of detail is not needed in the caption, but if a detailed description is given, it should be correct.  Kablammo 02:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Caption changed.  Kablammo 16:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture caption needing revision 

message: Should the first sentence not state that Cleveland is a city?  It's not even mentioned in the first paragraph.24.79.73.50 03:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening 

message: Cleveland as a city has collapsed from a population of 914,000 in 1950 to less than half that today (c454,000). The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is not enough to stem the decline. This type of overly-positive spin for places like Cleveland and Pittsburgh aren't going to help. Only changing fundamentals, like reducing the costs of doing business, reducing the crime rate, etc. will have a positive effect. Fake spin doesn't work, as the latest census numbers show.68.219.235.37 19:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I lived in Cleveland for 3 years and I found it an amazing place to live.  The low cost of living allows you to live the lush life even with a modest income.  I would hardly call reviews like the ones cited on this page "fake spin".  Cleveland has art and music to rival major cities like NYC and Chicago, and in my opinion it has some of the best restaurants of any city I've ever visited, and all of this with a very low cost of living.  If it makes you feel better, I just expanded the crime section.  I think it's important to accurately portray all the positives and negatives of this city--because Cleveland sure has a lot of both.  Cazort (talk) 00:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Much Spin 

message: Population claims make no sense. Is it the largest or the 2nd largest city in Ohio? 
http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-Midwest/Cleveland-Population-Profile.html mentions the 2003 data as 461,324 and national ranking as #40. It is likely that the population and ranking have declined further.--70.229.212.172 23:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: I have recently tagged this article in many places where sources are needed. For a featured article, more of this material needs to be sourced. If this material is not sourced soon, I will nominate this article for a featured article review.--Sefringle 05:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. The frist should be easy to cite, should be on the websites link. Moving on to the third point. That does need citations, and if they are on the wikilinks, just copy them here; however many of the wikilinks are often also unsourced, meaning there really are no souces. It would be a lot easier for someone doing research on the city to just click on the footnote, rather than click on the wikilink and hunt for a source. Point 5: I disagree here too. There needs to be some verification for that. I don't think that is common knowledge. The points I didn't comment on, are common knowledge.--Sefringle 04:42, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  sources 

message: I find the claim that Cleveland is one of the most livable cities in America to be extremely doubtful. Cleveland faces terrible schools, high crime rates, and crushing poverty. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6080044/ This claim needs investigation. I clicked on the citation and it went to a blank page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.162.192.24 (talk • contribs).
:It appears the the original article on The Economist's website expired. I replaced the reference with the copy in the Wayback Machine. - EurekaLott 06:35, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Livable? 

message: There are 10 cite needed tags, most of which date back over a month.  The references aren't listed in a consistent format.  There are copious redlinks in Tourism.  The suburbs section should be removed, as no other city articles have this, unless, in Cleveland, the suburbs play a larger role than in (for example) Atlanta.  Unless someone wants to put some serious work into this, I'm putting this up for WP:FAR.--Loodog 02:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  FAR can be found here.--Loodog 00:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They do play a large role.--Firebird17139
Can we hear from some of this article's editors on the FAR please? Okiefromokla•talk 21:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAR 

message: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Consider removing links that add little to the article or that have been repeated in close proximity to other links to the same article, as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and WP:CONTEXT.[?]
*If there is not a free use image in the top right corner of the article, please try to find and include one.[?]
*When writing standard abbreviations, the abbreviations should not have a 's' to demark plurality (for example, change kms to km and lbs to lb).
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.[?]
*Please reorder/rename the last few sections to follow guidelines at Wikipedia:Guide to layout.[?]
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Davnel03 21:14, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Automated Review 

message: Last night, IP 76.189.216.194 expanded (without referencing) the Neighborhoods section.  I'm not aware of the process with featured articles: should it be tagged, and just left there for a while, or do we just remove it after a few days, or something else?  Nyttend 11:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New text 

message: Why is there no mention of asiatown. asiatown (commonly known as China Town) cleveland is expanding with new apartment buildings being built and Asian Town Center, a new, 115,000-square-foot retail complex in the works. There are 4 grocery stores, a plaza, a couple bakeries, a dozen restaurants, and they have events occasionally there. http://www.asiatowncleveland.com199.232.231.96 (talk) 07:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe its not notable.  A neighborhood isn't necessarily important because it has a new shopping center. If it is notable, write something about it.  I would shy away from using Asiatown's website as a reference, but you can start with this from the Plain Dealer.Montco (talk) 13:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also borderline advertising.--Loodog (talk) 16:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Asiatown is notable, but it's an odd case because it emerged after the city's Statistical Planning Areas were defined. It's mostly in the St. Clair-Superior neighborhood, but also partly in Midown and the Quadrangle. I think that details about Asiatown belong in the St. Clair-Superior article. - EurekaLott (talk) 04:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  new text 

message: Where is the section on crime?--Margrave1206 (talk) 03:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland Ohio crime 

message: Can anybody explain the historical circumstances that led to such a large African-American population?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.109.255 (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Many African-Americans came to Cleveland looking for industrial jobs in the early part of the 20th century.  You might want to look at the article on the Great Migration for more info.  --Confiteordeo (talk) 05:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  African American Population 

message: How many times is this stated in the article "Cleveland is also home"? Could the wording be worked on. --Margrave1206 (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland is also home.... 

message: It is important that we consider what we are putting into this section. I have fixed two things here: first, not all Lebanese Americans (or Lebanese Nationals) are Arabs. Don't lump them into one group because it is convenient. Second, there is no mention of religious groups in the article, so to include Jews (or any other non-Christian religion for that matter) as an ethnicity, is a divisive move. While a claim that Judaism can be labeled as an ethnicity is debatable, it is quite irrelevant for the purposes of this article (or anywhere on Wikipedia for that matter). Most of the Jews, particularly the established communities of Orthodox Jews in the Greater Cleveland area, reside in the Eastern suburbs, not in the city. Otherwise, for national origin purposes, many are already covered ethnically in the article as being of Eastern European origin/descendants. Please be considerate, and don't forget to cite sources. If religion is important to the article, then let's add a brief paragraph on Cleveland's religious communities (using citations backed by census info of course). Ryecatcher773 (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are also substantial communities of Hungarians, Arabs, Romanians, Czechs, Slovaks, Greeks, Ukrainians, Albanians, Macedonians, Croats, Serbs, Lithuanians, Slovenians, Koreans, and Han Chinese. (emphasis is mine)
Besides the debatable part of being an ethnicity (which is opinion oriented as much as anything ), here's a fact: there are no significant populations of Jews living 'in the city limits of Cleveland. They left a long time ago. 
Look, it's about accuracy. My observation is from the perspective of having lived in the near Eastern suburbs of Cleveland for the first 20 of my 36 years, as a Jew in a predominantly Jewish community. I've had relatives who lived in Glenville years ago, before it changed and the suburban exodus took place. I worked downtown for years, and I still get back home to visit family, so it's not like I didn't get around town, nor have things suddenly changed after decades -- there hasn't been a substantial Jewish population in the City of Cleveland in years -- unless I'm mistaken, the article is not about the suburbs, but the city itself. 
True, my own experience, while empirical and a primary source in nature (neither are allowable under Wiki standards) they still inform the argument. But regardless, cited sources in this case are irrelevant to my half of the argument. I'm not trying to include anything, I'm seeking an exclusion of inaccurate info. 
Here's what I'll offer you: As per Wiki standards, if you can name a single Jewish neighborhood in the city proper (and I mean a neighborhood, not simply a couple of families living on the same street), I'll go along without an argument or a revert -- but it needs to be cited using a census-backed source (The Cleveland Jewish News might be a good place to start ). Or, if you really want to mention religion in the city, start a subsection in the demographic section regarding religion. I'm not opposed to that. Just cite it and I'm satisfied -- as Wikipedia would be as well. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 05:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

text: As an inner-city non-Jew who has known Cleveland-area Jews and has had them for friends, I too would be surprised to learn there were more than a few thousand Jews residing in Cleveland proper.  If I've ever met any, I can't recall it.  Google "jewish synagogues cleveland" and the map that comes up on the results page tells the tale.  There are just a handful of results listed as being in Cleveland--one on the West Side out on Triskett Road, which is actually geographically west of Lakewood, one south of the city at Broadway and E. 71st, and a bunch that for one reason or another have Cleveland addresses despite being in the Cleveland Heights/University Heights vicinity.  A scan of the Jewish Community Federation of Cleveland's community resources page  confirms that only very few institutions (schools, etc.) are in the city proper, and even those mostly have addresses which place them on the cusp of East Side suburbs.  The call for evidence of a Jewish enclave in the city of Cleveland is justified. Robert K S (talk) 06:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a few Jews living on the west side, some on the border with Parma/Brook Park area, some living right along the fringe by the suburbs, and some in the University Circle Area. I think most Jews now live in Shaker Heights and Beachwood, where there are more synagogues, the Jewish Community Center, etc. I also did the "jewish synagogues cleveland," and I know of more temples in Cleveland besides the ones shown. SpencerT♦C 12:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding Demographics 

message: Here's what the paragraph reads:
:There are also substantial communities of Hungarians, Arabs, Romanians, Czechs, Slovaks, Greeks, Ukrainians, Albanians, Macedonians, Croats, Serbs, Lithuanians, Slovenians, Koreans, and Han Chinese. (emphasis is mine)
Besides the debatable part of being an ethnicity (which is opinion oriented as much as anything ), here's a fact: there are no significant populations of Jews living 'in the city limits of Cleveland. They left a long time ago. 
Look, it's about accuracy. My observation is from the perspective of having lived in the near Eastern suburbs of Cleveland for the first 20 of my 36 years, as a Jew in a predominantly Jewish community. I've had relatives who lived in Glenville years ago, before it changed and the suburban exodus took place. I worked downtown for years, and I still get back home to visit family, so it's not like I didn't get around town, nor have things suddenly changed after decades -- there hasn't been a substantial Jewish population in the City of Cleveland in years -- unless I'm mistaken, the article is not about the suburbs, but the city itself. 
True, my own experience, while empirical and a primary source in nature (neither are allowable under Wiki standards) they still inform the argument. But regardless, cited sources in this case are irrelevant to my half of the argument. I'm not trying to include anything, I'm seeking an exclusion of inaccurate info. 
Here's what I'll offer you: As per Wiki standards, if you can name a single Jewish neighborhood in the city proper (and I mean a neighborhood, not simply a couple of families living on the same street), I'll go along without an argument or a revert -- but it needs to be cited using a census-backed source (The Cleveland Jewish News might be a good place to start ). Or, if you really want to mention religion in the city, start a subsection in the demographic section regarding religion. I'm not opposed to that. Just cite it and I'm satisfied -- as Wikipedia would be as well. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 05:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As an inner-city non-Jew who has known Cleveland-area Jews and has had them for friends, I too would be surprised to learn there were more than a few thousand Jews residing in Cleveland proper.  If I've ever met any, I can't recall it.  Google "jewish synagogues cleveland" and the map that comes up on the results page tells the tale.  There are just a handful of results listed as being in Cleveland--one on the West Side out on Triskett Road, which is actually geographically west of Lakewood, one south of the city at Broadway and E. 71st, and a bunch that for one reason or another have Cleveland addresses despite being in the Cleveland Heights/University Heights vicinity.  A scan of the Jewish Community Federation of Cleveland's community resources page  confirms that only very few institutions (schools, etc.) are in the city proper, and even those mostly have addresses which place them on the cusp of East Side suburbs.  The call for evidence of a Jewish enclave in the city of Cleveland is justified. Robert K S (talk) 06:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a few Jews living on the west side, some on the border with Parma/Brook Park area, some living right along the fringe by the suburbs, and some in the University Circle Area. I think most Jews now live in Shaker Heights and Beachwood, where there are more synagogues, the Jewish Community Center, etc. I also did the "jewish synagogues cleveland," and I know of more temples in Cleveland besides the ones shown. SpencerT♦C 12:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The heart of the argument 

message: It should be added.
DarkestMoonlight (talk) 17:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beit She'an is a sister city 

message: I'm a bit surprised that there is not a single word about pre-history, and that there is not even mentioned that there are indians living in Cleveland. --Hans-Jürgen Hübner (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, good point. If you want to, you can add this information would be at History of Cleveland, Ohio, possibly using this website. SpencerT♦C 19:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have written the german version of Cleveland's pre-history  and have used the same source. Nevertheless, thanks for the hint. Now I've tried to write the english version, although I'm shure the text needs some rectification. --Hans-Jürgen Hübner (talk) 08:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll look over it. SpencerT♦C 10:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Indians? 

message: I am the primary contributor of the current version of the Demographics section presenting the impact of court-ordered busing and the corresponding ethnic demographics and economics which changed as a result.  I tried to use a reference citation for almost every single sentence knowing that it is a controversial area.  My father worked as a teacher, guidance counselor, and administrator in the Cleveland Public Schools system from the mid-1960s through the 1990s so I am well acquainted with the issues and I attempted to convey as factual and neutral-POV as possible, citing as many reference sources as I reasonably could.
My contribution to the Demographics section was in response to someone deleting someone else's "similar" contribution which was reasonably factual but which lacked appropriate reference citations.
The section is rather long and could potentially be moved to either a Cleveland Public Schools or similar article and replacing it in the Cleveland, Ohio with a reference to the longer section in another article and a briefer summary of the effects of a changing economy, mandatory-busing, and changing demographics on the total population and its demographic composition.
Alternatively, if someone has alternative references which express other points of view, I would not object to reviewing and including them.  The Wiki "Point of View" policy is NOT that any view be excluded (unless they are obscene or offensive), but rather that either a neutral/middle-of-the-road view be expressed or that "all" (common/relevant) points of view are expressed.
What raised this post was someone (anonymous/IP) deleting the entire section citing OR and POV (which someone else subsequently reverted),
with about one reference citation per sentence it is obviously not OR,
and I tried to stay as neutral/middle-of-the-road as factually possible.
If anyone has other opinions/views, ... here is where to express them so that the section can be updated.
LeheckaG (talk) 23:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

message: There seems to be some confusion with the works listed in this section.  I think it would be more in keeping with the encyclopedic nature to list major films and television shows that are based in Cleveland (like Antwone Fisher, Major League, American Splendor, The Drew Carey Show, etc.) with an aside to films that used Cleveland as a backdrop for other locations (like A Christmas Story or Spider-Man 3) along with a link to a list.  Before any wholesale changes are made, I would like to open it up to discussion.  Any strong opinions one way or the other on this topic?Max Density (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film and Television references 

message: I find it a little unbalanced that the rock-and-roll hall of fame is listed in the top paragraph of the introduction to this article...and yet older, much more world-renowned institutions such as the Cleveland Orchestra and the Cleveland Museum of Art are not mentioned.  Thoughts?  Cazort (talk) 00:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion in Introduction 

message: I commented this out until someone can update, per the new Red Sox record.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: hmmm. no one fixed it, so I guess I'll do it myself.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update sellout record 

message: Please somebody add the Dead Boys to the list of musicians from Cleveland.92.100.33.169 (talk) 14:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music 

message: I think it should be included under the "fine arts" section that the CMA is a free museum, the only [or one of the only] large museums in the world that can boast such a status. This is due to so many contributions over the years, and the desire to keep it free. The only part that isn't free in the CMA is the traveling exhibit.
http://www.clemusart.com/planyourvisit/FAQ.aspx  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rayneslayer (talk • contribs) 16:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland Museum of Art 

message: The Brooklyn Centre neighborhood of Cleveland has a website at http://www.brooklyncentre.org/. Could somebody please add the hyperlink to the article, in the section on Neighborhoods? TimFerris (talk) 04:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brooklyn Centre website 

message: Cleveland is NOT considered that. This needs to be removed, and no disrespect to Cleveland, but just because the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame is located there doesn't give it this honor. Major music genres and/or artists have been bred in New York City, Chicago, London, Los Angeles, Nashville, Seattle, Atlanta, New Orleans, Liverpool. Now, over the course of the last 60 years, yes, some acts would have been from Cleveland, as they were from virtually every other midsize city in the Western world. But Cleveland did nothing that outpaces or that's even on par with the above mentioned cities. How in the world could Cleveland be the Rock N roll Capital of the entire world? If the museum wasn't there, this wouldn't even be in discussion. And the museum is the only reason it has an association with rock music to begin with. It clear to see why this article is locked from editing. Any real music fan or person not from Clevland would remove this, knowing its pure fabrication.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.176.30 (talk) 20:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Association With Rock Music / Rock N Roll Capital of the World? 

message: There is currently a proposal on the table to amend the Wikipedia naming conventions for US cities to follow the AP Stylebook's suggested names. This would effectively move a number of US city articles currently on the list, so Cleveland, Ohio would be moved to Cleveland. To comment on this discussion, please go here. Dr. Cash (talk) 16:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There also exists a question as to whether or not Cleveland should be on the exemption list due to being a sufficiently primary topic; see Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(settlements)#Cleveland. Shereth 18:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If Cleveland is not sufficiently primary to be the title of this article, then Cleveland should not redirect to this article.  But it does, and it has for years.  If anyone wants to question that, this is the page on which to try to achieve consensus on this point.  But the absence of any such effort here, much less a successful one, implies consensus is that Cleveland is sufficiently primary to redirect to this article (rather than to a disambiguation page), and thus sufficiently primary to be the title of this article, and should not be on the exemption list.  --Serge (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested mo<!-- Break -->ve (inactive) 

message: I broke up a huge run-on paragraph about forced busing.  It gets extremely detailed (much more so than any other part of the page).  Does anyone think that this subsection should be moved to the "Education" section and perhaps shortened?
Matthiashess (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics>>Schools 

message: From the article: "Its (Cleveland's) 20 sister cities include Holon, Israel; Volgograd, Russia; Bratislava, Slovakia; Ljubljana, Slovenia; Miskolc, Hungary; Bangalore, India; Alexandria, Egypt; and most recently Fier, Albania." Does that seem wrong to anyone else here? Not taking into account that it doesn't even add up to 20? Bcdefg123 19:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have found some other sister cities and added them. Leppi (talk) 17:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sister cities? 

message: Nettuno in Italy is a sister city, it should be added.
Thanks
:added Leppi (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nettuno, Italy - is a sister city