Talk:Tajiks of Xinjiang

message: In Turkic language, "Tajik" originally referred to Pamiris, medieval Bactrians, Sogdians and Chorasmians, and Pashtuns etc - i.e. East Iranian. (Not Persians that are Southwest Iranian and didn't live in the area 1000 years before.) But in English wikipedia, unlike in Turkic, unfortunately, "Tajik" refers to Central Asian Persian. I think the meaning of "Tajik" has changed and the term can not be used here.
See Tajiks 
"Language: Darī; Tajiki dialects. Of the basic Mediterranean sub-stock, they show Mongoloid attributes increasingly from south to north."
For Pamiri people, I think the terms "Pamiri" or "Ghalcha" are better, and "Tajik" is wrong, although historically "Tajik" was used in Turkic language.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.58.100.78 (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there are some points missing in the above arguments, that is, the term "Tajik" is what is officially designated the name of the this group in China today and this is the word that this population use to identify themselves. In addition, I dare someone to show me a piece of literature from a reputable source, and that has been written in the last half-century, that reference to this group by any other term. You will find the term Sarikoli and Wakhi used, but these are sub-terms that refer to linguistic groups within the Tajik population. And please double check your sources with any Chinese language sources. The Tajiks in China have almost no written records in their own languages and today virtually everything written in China about the Tajiks is written in Chinese, including materials written by Chinese Tajik scholars about their own community. As for the above comment, "For Pamiri people, I think the terms "Pamiri" or "Ghalcha" are better, and "Tajik" is wrong, although historically "Tajik" was used in Turkic language," show me your sources David Straub (talk) 22:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the response. But you seem to not know that "Tajik" is not Pamiri word and not commonly used by the people themselves. The original self-identification of Pamiris is Badakhshani (not Tajik). The different tribes are called Khik, Sarikoli etc. In Soviet, Chinese and Tajikistan sources, "Tajik" is used and their identity is supressed that you seem to be supporting. Academia use the term "Pamiri people" for them, which is what we should be using. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 04:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: First, show me a pre-Soviet reference that uses the term Pamiri. The Pamirs before 1900 was not a unified political unit and the Wakhi, Shughni, Sarikoli, Kyrgyz etc fought among themselves, captured each others peoples for the slave trade, and openly courted alliances with outside powers. If anything, the prevailing term of identity was most likely Ismaili, not an ethnic one, such as Pamiri, Badakhshan, or Tajik. The term "Pamiri" was in fact promoted by Soviet authorities. Second, you're comment that "'Tajik' is used and their identity is supressed that you seem to be supporting," is an overt personal attack against me and a violation of wikipedia rules. And if you want to attack me personally, why don't you sign in and present your real name? David Straub (talk) 17:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tajiks uses the word "Taji" refers to their crown, no matter western Iranian or eastern Iranian. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 09:51, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

text: In Afghanistan, the terms used for the people in eastern Badakhshan province are "Badakhshani" and "Pamiri". Historically "Badakhshani" was used, but now "Pamiri" is more commonly used (see Afghan national anthem). 116.58.100.78 (talk) 04:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In Western Region nations, people called East Iranian speakers, West Iranian speakers and Arabic people Taji, and when this word transcripted into Chinese, is "大食". Nowadays, Sarikoli people themselves recognized this name. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My take on this (perhaps surprisingly lively) debate is that this entry ought to be little more than a disambiguation page to clarify the name for the Chinese "Tajik" nationality.  The existing Pamiri pages, both on language and ethnicity, are good and interested readers ought to be directed to them; the only distinctive issue here, in my view, is that (for potentially interesting but strictly historiographical reasons) there is confusion about the term "Tajik."  As DS points out above, the basic fact of the matter here is that Tajik is a 'nationality' in the PRC.  To me, that's about all you need to say beyond clarifying the distinction between different uses of the term.Penalba2000 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 19:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What "Tajiks" refers to

message: I advice the name Tujik people, it's transcription of Sarikoli:
Tujik ziv – Hanzu ziv lughot
--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We use the common name in English texts, not necessarily the transcription of the native pronunciation. Alefbe (talk) 21:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the English term is "Tajik", that can refer to many peoples in the broadest sense, but refers to only Persian speakers in the region when used in its proper sense. (see Tajik language and Tajik people) 116.58.100.78 (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But, Alefbe, you moved plain Tajiks to Tājik people, isn't it a native pronunciation？ --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the native pronunciation is Salikuer and Wahan. 116.58.100.78 (talk) 09:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  How do you say that? Still, there's no Roman transliteration for Sarikoli language. (So Salikuer can't be a Sarikoli Romanlization.) --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 12:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Tujik people

message: User:David Straub asked me to add my comment. I originally created this page in order to hold content about the members of this ethnic group in China. Similar to Ethnic Mongols in China, Koreans in China, and other cross-border ethnic groups. But I haven't been watching this debate too closely, and I don't have much of an opinion. Anyway I'll try to give a more complete overview of the Chinese sources.
All the online sources and a big proportion of the offline sources in Chinese state word for word:
:“塔吉克”是本民族的自稱，據民間傳說，該詞的原意為“王冠”。 = Tajike is the self-identification of this ethnic group. According to folk legend, this word means "crown".
I think this is copied from an official document somewhere; it probably reflects "Whatever the Soviet Union says, let's say the exact opposite" political correctness ...
There's a couple of other viewpoints/more details in print sources :
*中国少数民族语言使用情况: 塔吉克族有有薩里庫爾和瓦罕兩種自稱 = Tajikezu have two different ways of calling themselves: Salikuer and Wahan
*新疆民族, p65: “塔吉克“ （TAJIK) 一名由“塔吉”（王冠）加上后缀 “－K” 组成，意为“王冠之族”，主要居住在塔吉克斯坦共和国，分为平原塔吉克和高山塔吉克。新疆的塔吉克是高山塔吉克人的一支，大都居住于帕米尔高原及其附近地区。 = The name "Tajik" comes from "Taji" (crown) plus the suffix "-k", meaning "the tribe of the crown". Most live in the Republic of Tajikistan. They are divided into Plains Tajiks and Mountain Tajiks. The Tajike of Xinjiang are part of the Mountain Tajik branch. They mostly live in the Pamir Plateau and surrounding areas.
That last one is an example of what Yu Hai was mentioning above.
But this is just a shallow overview from Google. Chinese books aren't too well represented in GBooks. I have a copy of 塔吉克语简志 somewhere at home, or maybe I lent it out to someone, which I recall discusses this issue a bit more, but for anything else, I'd have to head for the library. cab (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Chinese sources 

message: this edit
Please explain the reason. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 04:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Who remove the History Tag? 

message: I removed them. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Archive 7#Blanking of links. The Joshua Project data are full of errors (22,000 Koreans in Mozambique? 7,000,000 Mandarin speakers in Indonesia?), and their habit of dividing up self-identified single ethnic groups into multiple ones based on spoken dialect differences makes things even worse. I don't find them to be a reliable source either for ethnic group naming or for population numbers. cab (talk) 08:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joshua Project links 

message: Jahangir Khoja was a sunni sufi fundamentalist. His contained sunni tajiks from central asia who speak the real tajik language. This article is about the pamiri ismaili shia tajiks found only in badakhshan and xinjiang. I deleted paragraphs which are talkinga bout the actual tajiks, move them to history of tajikistan or somehwere else.Jeumbledde (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Jahangir

message: http://books.google.com/books?id=JL4IAAAAQAAJ
http://books.google.com/books?id=up2jpwAACAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions
Kuoofra (talk) 04:51, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shighni (ghalchah) dialect 

message: In Medieval Europe, people spoke their local languages among themselves such as Italian, French, Castilian, while not writing them down and using them as literary languages until much later. They wrote in Latin as their literary language.
In the same way, the some minorities in Chna do not have an alphabet for their own language. They only speak their language orally, and use the Chinese or another major language like Uyghur to write.
The Tajiks of Xinjiang only speak their own language orally, and use the Uyghur language to write.
http://books.google.com/books?id=oWc2I03-UQIC&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q&f=false
On the Ghalchah languages (Wakhand Sarikol (1876)
https://archive.org/details/onghalchahlangua00shaw
Government policies were in favor of Uyghurs when Persian language was abolished in Tajik schools in 1954.
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-ix
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-viii
Rajmaan (talk) 06:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: In response to increased Tsarist Russian activity in Sarikol around 1900, the local Sarikoli begs and Sarikoli people feared that Russia was going to annex the region and take it away from China, fearing molestation at the hands of the Russians, they wanted to flee to Yarkand. They did not believe the official explanation that Russia was only concerned with the postal service in the area.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA125&dq=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2BFHU4umB6rNsQTVqYDADQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=100%20petty%20Sarikol%20protested%20against%20Russians%20molest&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&dq=100+petty+Sarikol+protested+against+Russians+molest&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2BFHU4umB6rNsQTVqYDADQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=lTn-AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA125&dq=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QRJHU76nJ-qwsAT144CoBg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=On%208%20February%20a%20deputation%20from%20Sarikol%20arrived%20at%20Yarkand%20and%20presented%20to%20the%20Amban%20three%20petitions%20which%20bore%20the%20seals%20of%20six%20headmen%20and%20the%20thumb-marks%20of%20about%20100%20petty%20Sarikol%20officials.%20They%20protested%20against%20the%20arrival%20of%20the%20Russians%20and%20asked%20to%20be%20given%20land%20near%20Yarkand%20as%20they%20were%20certain%20that%20the%20Russians%20would%20molest%20them.&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DgIAQAAIAAJ&q=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&dq=On+8+February+a+deputation+from+Sarikol+arrived+at+Yarkand+and+presented+to+the+Amban+three+petitions+which+bore+the+seals+of+six+headmen+and+the+thumb-marks+of+about+100+petty+Sarikol+officials.+They+protested+against+the+arrival+of+the+Russians+and+asked+to+be+given+land+near+Yarkand+as+they+were+certain+that+the+Russians+would+molest+them.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QRJHU76nJ-qwsAT144CoBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ
Rajmaan (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Russian sentiment among Sarikoli ([[Tajiks of Xinjiang]]) in 1900