Talk:Former eastern territories of Germany/Archive 1

message: This page contains a Neo-Nazi, content which is offensive and insulting, starting the World War II again, and should be removed. Mestwin of Gdansk 18:05, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo-Nazi content ??? 

message: I must admit that it breaks my hart to, basically, restore a User:Wik version, and I am suspicious of Wik's expertise when it comes to matters of contemporary Germany, BRD and DDR, but comparing the last version by Wik with the last version by Nico, the former is quite simply so much more correct and the latter so much more propagandist: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Eastern_Germany&diff=2663272&oldid=2654218
This is not to say that the version I restore, in my humble opinion, be perfect - only much less flawed than the current.
However, I strongly oppose the idea that the term "Middle Germany" should have been anyhow "invented" after 1945. I wasn't born then, but what happened, I guess, is that an already used term became politically charged.
--Ruhrjung 08:39, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia is supposed to be descriptive 

message: Eastern Germany should be together with East Germany. Nico is removing an interesting staff from Erika Steinbach without any reason. Cautious 22:38, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  taken from Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress 

message: * Eastern Germany - edit war between Cautious and Nico. Cautious wants it redirected to East Germany, and Nico is reverting. →Raul654 22:24, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)
** Simple vandalism. User:Cautious is blanking an article he doesn't like. That is a blockable offense. Nico 22:28, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea. Nico 05:45, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: You do not have much freedom of speech in Germany, so thing isn't changed much since the 30'ies. I'd be interested to know where the hell you got that idea from... --Palapala 09:35, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)
As for the DDR, it was not a state. And it had no citizens. The inhabitants were citizens of Germany and occupied by Soviet. There is a difference. Frahm was a socialist whose ideal was Soviet. Of course he recognized their puppet state(s). Would you expect such a person, and such a Trunkenbold, to do otherwise? His staff was even paid by Stasi. However, I would like to cite Herbert Hupka, who expressed the opinion of loyal Germans: "Das Deutsche Reich existiert fort. [...] Ostdeutschland umfaßt nicht nur Ostdeutschland jenseits von Oder und Neiße, also den heute unter polnischer und sowjetischer Herrschaft stehenden Teil des Deutschen Reiches, sondern auch das Sudetenland und die deutschen Siedlungsgebiete zwischen Ostsee und Schwarzem Meer." (Dr. Herbert Hupka, MdB, 1984) -- Nico 06:58, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: And I thought we long ago abandoned the idea of "SBZ" and "DDR" (as opposed to DDR). And of course there were citizens. You could visit them and talk to them, if you wanted. (One of the nicer outcomes of the Ostverträge which the cited Trunkenbold helped get under way.) --Palapala 09:35, 2004 Mar 12 (UTC)
I would like to cite Herbert Hupka, who expressed the opinion of loyal Germans
Loyal to what? I'm loyal to my conscience, not to some abstract patriotic duty. I don't hate Germany. I just would hate a Germany that wants to expand after failing miserably twice. It doesn't and that's just fine.
In fact, people here are allowed to talk a lot of nonsense publicly (though clearly not as much as elsewhere) if they like (and boy, some people do!) if only they don't deny the Holocaust which I take you don't do. Fact is just that most people don't use their freedom of speech to talk nonsense. The Günter Guillaume affair could have happened to anyone and did not influence Brandt's Ostpolitik, you know that as well as I do. He just wanted Germans to get real and deal with facts. Stop your slander. The GDR was very real indeed. As for Hupka - he was a typical case of unbelehrbar. And it's not a bad thing not to take part in an aggressive war you don't believe in. Actually, in this case, it's not even right if you do. I don't care if German history is considered greyer elsewhere. Modest behaviour is a moral duty. Know what's criminal? To keep the man in charge of the Rassengesetze in office. I might cite the expellee Dieter Hildebrandt at this point, but won't, lest you call him a traitor too.
It's not political correctness, it's moral decency. 
Max
"Aggressive war you don't believe in"? Which aggressive war? Even Stauffenberg and most of his friends were in favour of liberating the areas occupied by Poland since the first world war. As Great Britain dominated most of the world, and they had stolen the very few colonies of Germany, it was not exceptional that Germany wanted some land as well. So was the spirit of that time. To the West, Germany offered peace, in fact they did not even declare war. Great Britain did. And the Soviets were not much better, they attacked Poland themselves. And how about the US, Great Britain or Poland? These states attacked Iraq last year, according to the Polish  Minister of Foreign Affairs because they wanted oil (see BBC's article). Germany just did what other states also did and STILL ARE DOING! Btw, USA, with their long history of slavery and genocide of Africans as well as native Americans, had Rassengesetze until the 60'ies or 70'ies. So there are a lot of criminal Americans as well. Nico 08:36, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: Nico, did I get you wrong or did you just state that a new war in Europe is what Germany needs? I hope it's my English, and not your beliefs.Halibutt 22:28, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  cut from [[Wikipedia:Protected page]] and pasted here 

message: Nico, why are you constantly deleting any mention of the border treaty? Halibutt 05:34, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 1970 treaty

message: I think this needs to be sourced:
:According to the Federation of Expellees...15 million Germans were displaced from their homes and over 2 million people were killed or died during the process. These numbers, however, are disputed.
The source for the numbers mentioned should be given, ideally with some sort of analysis to go with them, and the alternative numbers alluded too with the names of those who propose them should be mentioned. Philip Baird Shearer 20:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Facts and figures

message: :as well as returning territories taken by Prussia in Partitions of Poland to the recreated Polish state.
What "Partitions of Poland" when? 
Either the land was recognised by the international community as German or you are talking about additional territory which was under German control but was not recognised by the international community as German. Which is it? Philip Baird Shearer 16:05, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You can speak of "internationally recognised state" but there is no such thing as "international recognision of a land". What would you mean by this exactly ? Sincerely, I can't believe that you have not heard of Partitions of Poland. Maybe this map will help you out. --Lysy (talk) 16:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

text: What I'm questioning is calling these territories German. This is POV again. Personally I would call them "occupied by Germany", but I think that "returning territories taken by Prussia in Partitions of Poland to the recreated Polish state" perfectly matches historic truth. Do you question that these ground were taken by Prussia or that they were returned to recreated Polish state ? If this is true, do you have any reason to pretend that these territories were German ? --Lysy (talk) 17:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Note that I did not insist on using the "occupied" wording in the article, just stated the unquestionable facts. --Lysy (talk) 18:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Partitions of Poland

message: The History section currently opens with "In 1871 those provinces or regions east of the Oder–Neisse line under control of German administrations sympathetic to the goal of German unity and the formation of the German Empire by Otto von Bismarck, like many regions in what is today Germany, were incorporated into the unified state." This sounds rather verbose. Can't we streamline that a bit? Olessi 00:30, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You think that is verbose! There are some editors of this page, See talk higher up the page, who would like to put in the history of the region over the last 1000 years. If you can reduce it without destroying the meaning I would not object. Philip Baird Shearer 08:31, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I have made a change. If there were any territories east of the Oder–Neisse line which were incorporated into the Germany Empire which were not under Prussian administration in 1871 please add them. Philip Baird Shearer 10:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section intro