Talk:Principality of Sealand/Archive 2

message: I removed mention of overseas government employees from "population", as they are not part of that entity's population.
I also added some scare quotes round disputed stuff in the taxobox. Martin 22:04, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: I have discovered today with the greatest interest this article and this talk page. I felt a bit disappointed to find in the article so few details underpinning the most surprising assertion according which Sealand would be a state as defined under Montevideo Convention, since it fulfils the condition of a "permanent population". I see further above in the article that the population number is 1, who seems to be Mr Michael Bates, according to the article Paddy Roy Bates.
Does this mean that Mr Michael Bates never leaves the controversial territory ?   Or how should this criterion of "permanent population" be understood ?
French Tourist 21:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Permanency of population 

message: Overlooked in all of the discussion on this topic is the very name of this alleged "nation". It has been called a "principality". A principality is not self-created, it is created by a principal sovereign power having both jurisdiction and authority to convey a sub-authority or a lesser authority on its principality. In the case of Monaco the power resides jointly with France and Spain, although it is my understanding that if the Prince's line fails that the Principality of Monaco will revert back to France. In the case in question there is a self-admission by Roy Bates of how he came up with the name and when and where he did so. It was in a pub over a beer. What sparked his remarks is found in UK events of the day. At that time Her Majesty the Queen was about to convey upon her son the title of Prince of Wales in order that he may represent the Principality of Wales. Wales is a principality and Scotland is a co-joined nation with England sharing the same monarchy. The entity in question concerning Roy Bates is a former Royal Navy barge with a superstructure. Ample pictures abound of this vessel being towed to her position over Rough Sands and her hold being flooded so that she sank on to the sandbar with a complete crew of many men. There is also ample evidence to show that the UK Ministry of Defence has always maintained the buoys around Rough Tower (the official H.M. Ordinance Survey map name for the structure today.) Roy Bates has made many claims about starting radio and TV stations, casinos, hotels, etc on or around Rough Tower and not one of them has come to pass (with the exception of his original Radio Essex/BBMS on another former sunken Royal Navy barge-fort which a British court forced him to close down in 1966.) The UK government has prevented every move at flouting UK law. The same goes for Havenco Ltd which began as a British registered company (the evidence may be obtained on line Monday-Friday UK business hours from DTI Companies House.) The mail to Rough Tower is by pick-up at a UK Post Office. There are no unauthorized UK electronic links that exist between Rough Tower and any mainland. But before the entire saga was spelled out on this site, the very name issue should have been addressed and the actual confession of Roy Bates should have been taken into account. MPLX/MH 01:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name begs an explanation 

message: I took a look at Wiktionary for its definition of Principality:
Etymology From Latin principalitas, from adjective principalis, principal, + noun of state suffix -itas. principalis is from prin-, prim-, from primus, first, + cip-, from caput, head, + adjective suffix -alis.
Noun principality, plural principalities A region or sovereign nation headed by a prince or princess.
and then I took a look at the definition of Prince:
Etymology From French prince, from Latin princeps, literally "first head", from primus, first, + ceps, head, related to capitus, head
Noun prince, plural princes male ruler or head of a principality son of a prince, king, queen, emperor, or empress, or some other rank like a grand duke
It would seem that this is nothing but an old play upon the Steve Martin skit of "You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes". You say, "Steve, how can I be a millionaire and never pay taxes?" Steve replies, "First get a million dollars. Second ..."
The key is to deal with first things first. In this case the question is: "Where is the king, queen, emperor, or empress, or some other rank like a grand duke who is alleged to have given "Prince Roy" the ability to rule a principality? The answer is that none exists because his authority came from drinking something alcoholic at a pub - according to his own admission told many times to many people and publications.
The bottom line is this: to become a prince you first have to get your title from some royal family line. But there is no royal family line. The Bates family have never shown that they are the heirs to some distant and forgotten throne. If we trace the royal powers back as far as the "Christian world" is concerned, then most of those powers flowed from the Catholic Church or something similar. In other words there is always a line. In this case the line starts and ends in a waiting line to be served at a pub! Those are the facts and they have never been disputed because that is exactly what Roy Bates has said.
The issues concerning local court jurisdictions involving firearms are related to firearms, they are not related to the issue of any royal genealogy.
Finally there is the issue of the Royal Navy barge itself. Because it was a naval vessel and it sank - even if it was intentional - the question is whether a civilian can take possession of a military wreck, when the military still claim it. Proof of the fact that the Ministry of Defence still claim liability for it is in the actual buoys surrounding Rough Tower with "Rough Tower" painted on them! Those buoys even show up in photos taken by fans from Rough Tower!
This is just silly beyond belief.
But because this first issue fails, then the entire saga also fails as nothing but a joke and Wikipedia is involved in a non-issue, which is how the UK and USA view "Sealand". MPLX/MH 23:33, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition from Wiktionary 

message: There is already a Principality of Sealand page which for some illogical reason is redirected to this page which looks as if it is/was a disambiguation page. I suggest that the contents of this page are moved to Principality of Sealand page and that this Sealand page is redirected to Sealand (disambiguation) because there is already a Sealand in Wales that is recognized as a part of the United Kingdom and it is also the location of both a famous RAF Sealand and a USAF base. Then there is the are the areas of Holland known and recognized in the English language as Sealand and the hotel in Hong Kong, China known as Sealand, and of course the world famous shipping company known as Sealand. It is therefore logical that the redirect from the existing "Principality of Sealand" should be removed and that a redirect placed on this Sealand page to Sealand (disambiguation). At least that would be a logical and sensible start to clearing up this mess and it can be done with little effort. MPLX/MH 18:36, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soution Number One 

message: I was asked by Jao the following question:
Are you denying that the "Principality of Sealand" is an example of entities that resemble independent states, but for the most part exist only on paper, on the Internet, or in the minds of their creators (which is our present definition of micronation, taken from that article)? True, we don't see into Roy Bates's mind, but I don't think we have to doubt that therein, if nowhere else, the entity does exist. Perhaps you are confusing micronations with microstates? -- Jao 08:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
Well the article plainly stated that it was a microstate, but called it a micronation, which is downright confusing, if the entire subject was not confusing to begin with. So I have added that definition to state that it is considered by its creators to be a microstate and not a micronation. How else can this daft article begin by saying that it is a sovereign nation and end up by contradicting itself and stating that it is not? The contradiction appears in the first lines after the words Principality of Sealand. It begs a simple, two-three line explanation of what it is - which does not contradict itself or commonsense. Of course the only problem is with the definition of microstate is that no nation has ever agreed that the Principality of Sealand exists (as Jao correctly stated), anywhere but in the mind of Roy Bates and those of his fan club. MPLX/MH 21:31, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Micronation or Microstate? 

message: The problem with this article is that it begins by assuming something. It assumes that an island land exists that can be declared independent. The fact of the matter is that what is being discussed is a sunken barge whose twin towers poking above the shallow waters are in fact the superstructure of the sunken barge. Second: This barge was a military vessel. Third: This military vessel known either as HMS Rough's or HM Fort Roughs was built in England and towed to the Rough Sands where the hold was flooded so that it sank gently on the bottom with the Royal Navy crew and other staff on board. Pictures of the building and sinking exist. Fourth: In a pub Roy Bates joked about making the sunken barge into a principality to mimic the Principality of Wales with Prince Charles as the Prince of Wales being imitated by Roy Bates. The Queen made her son Prince of Wales of a real land. A sunken barge is not a land of any type. Fifth: By sleight of hand the uninitiated have been hoodwinked into accepting that the word "derelict" means "abandoned". It does not. The Ministry of Defence have never abandoned claim after their predecessor the Ministry of War placed the barge at that location and to this very day the UK taxpayers pay for the identification buoys surrounding "Rough Tower" with those words painted upon them. You can argue all you want to about territory but first you have to find some territory and there is none. Not only that but this matter was decided in a US court of law with UK participation in 1990-1991 and those findings have never been challenged by anyone, let alone the Bates family. This is a joke and a sham dispute about something that does not exist. Find the land then we can find the dispute. MPLX/MH 21:57, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not an article about HMS Fort Roughs. This is an article about the entity created by Paddy Roy Bates that is known to millions of people around the world as "Sealand". It would serve you well to understand the very real distinction between the two.--Gene_poole 23:00, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  A BASIC FLAW THAT CANNOT BE OVERCOME 

message: :::Gene, we already had this discussion and you are claiming that because Roy Bates claimed long enough and loud enough that other people heard and believed him, that the "Principality of Sealand" exists, it therefore exists. That is basis of your entire point of view. You therefore go on to claim that therefore there should be an entry for "Sealand" or "Principality of Sealand". Okay, is there one for the Flat Earth Society? According to your reasoning there should be and on that basis I would agree with you. But in the very first opening and discriptive text it needs to say the following:
::::No such land mass exists and that the subject is founded upon a myth and a hoax.
::::The object in question is a sunken sea barge that is still marked by buoys paid for by the UK taxpayers at the behest of the Ministry of Defence.
::::The sea barge is a sunken HMS Royal Navy barge built on land during World War Two and floated into place with troops on board and then intentionally sunk on Rough Sands sandbar.
::::The "entity created by Paddy Roy Bates that is known to millions of people around the world as Sealand" - is a myth and a hoax and no such land mass on the face of the Planet Earth exists now or has ever existed.
::::This myth and hoax has spawned many frauds and criminal acts.
:::There, is that better? MPLX/MH 23:51, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''SEALAND'' HAS NO LAND BECAUSE IT IS A SUNKEN ROYAL NAVY BARGE - A SHIP! 

message: Thank you Gene for the link. I have not only taken a look at the link but made a note of its contents because I believe that you have answered the entire remaining issue. The question has been raised: "What is the legal definition of defamation?"
The answer is very interesting in the context of "Sealand" because it also addresses the problems encountered with the false ship registration claims and Ryan Lackey's problems which caused him to quit Havenco (and both the ship issue the Havenco legal issues are related - see Ryan Lackey's own web site.)
The elements that must be proved to establish defamation are: (1) A publication to one other than the person defamed; (2) of a false statement of fact; (3) which is understood as being of and concerning the plaintiff; and (4) which is understood in such a way as to tend to harm the reputation of plaintiff.
(1) "Sealand" is not a person but the name of activities taking place on a boat which had a voyage and which was sunk. (2) Claiming that a sunken Royal Navy boat can be taken over by private individuals and declared a sovereign country is in itself a false statement of fact. It denies reality and it is false on its face. (3) The would-be "plaintiff" is a sunken boat, which means that this would be an In Rem ("the thing") case. Since the ownership of the boat would be at issue there would be competing claims as to who represented the "plaintiff": The UK government who built and paid for it and have marked it by their taxpayer buoys, or the Bates family who are mere squatters on someone else's property. (4) Since the "plaintiff" would be disputed the only people to have harmed the real owner (UK) would be the "defendant", namely the Roy, Joan and Michael Bates and hangers on. 
Gene, I believe you have just resolved this entire article as being a fantasy of nonsense spawning criminal acts. MPLX/MH 16:04, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You are obviously incapable of maintaining any sort of objectivity on this subject, and you appear to have completely failed to understand the nature of defamation as a legal concept, so I'll keep my comments brief: You are defaming members of the Bates family by publishing unsubstantiated allegations of criminal activity by them, in writing, in a public forum. I strongly recommend that you stop doing so.--Gene_poole 21:56, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I read your reply Gene and you obviously have no response to what I have written. I suggest that you stick to the facts which include the reality that the Bates family and their friends became squatters on British government property. That is a fact. Address the facts Gene and stay off the personal attack. Since the Bates family and their hangers on are the squatters this subject is intertwined with their actions. By the way, for your information the Cabinet of Prime Minister Harold Wilson called Roy Bates a nut. The Treasury Solicitor for HM Treasury told me personally that the "Sealand" myth is drivel. His expression. If you want proof I will produce proof. Now address the facts. Point number one: "Sealand" is a sunken barge and it has no territory. That is a fact. Point number two if the UK government says that Bates is a nut and I agree with them, so be it! MPLX/MH 04:17, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defamation of "Sealand" 

message: This article page was created specifically for an article about the "Principality of Sealand". However, at this time there is no entry on the Principality of Sealand page other than a redirect to a page named Sealand. That page contains partial disambiguation and the article about the "Principality of Sealand". However there now exists a more complete Sealand (disambiguation) page. In order to straighten this mess out the article presently on the Sealand page should be removed here and the redirect link on the Principality of Sealand page should be removed and a redirect inserted on Sealand page to the Sealand (disambiguation) page. MPLX/MH 15:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forked discussion 

message: Turning the clock back to where a claim was first made about the status of Rough Tower it becomes obvious that the initial claim was based upon a basic untruth. According to the Wired magazine for July, 2000, Michael Bates claimed that his father's lawyer had found a loophole in international law called "dereliction of sovereignty" and that the Bates family "took over the sovereignty that the British government had derelicted." However, Rough Tower was not an island and it was never sovereign territory. Rough Tower was what remained of the former HMS Roughs which had been sunk on Rough Sands. The word dereliction has been used as a substitute for the word abandonment, but the two words have different meanings. The UK had never abandoned claims to ownership of Rough Tower, because its taxpayers paid for the buoys to be placed around it with the words "Rough Tower" painted on them. Rough Tower itself may have been left idle and may not have been in the best shape, but not caring for something is not the same as throwing something away. More than this a ship or vessel is registered with a sovereign country, it cannot register itself with itself. It was this basic point that the US Administrative Court heard and ruled upon in 1990 and reaffirmed on appeal in 1991. By sticking to the facts in evidence and using only the claims made by the Bates family, it becomes obvious that the story of turning a sunken ship into a sovereign nation is without foundation in fact, in reality or in law. I intend to add more NPOV factual documentation from reliable sources to establish this matter beyond question of doubt. MPLX/MH 18:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions added 

message: In view of the current discussion and the invitation at the top of this page to edit it further, I have now done so and created new content. MPLX/MH 02:59, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total Revision 

message: This article is documenting on ongoing investigation. As of November 9, 2004 I have managed to discover how and why "Sealand" exists. It does not exist as a country but as a former Royal Navy vessel that squatters first occupied back in 1967. According to Crown Estate this boat is sitting on their land at Rough Sands. The person contributing to this article is now awaiting information as to why the squatters have not been evicted to date. As soon as this information is received it will be added to the article. The problem began back in 1968 when Justice Chapman made the mistake of assuming that Rough Tower is not a ship, because according to a transcript that is what he said. Had he known that it was a ship a different branch of law would have been applied and this saga would not have continued to the present day. The British Government claim that Rough Tower is chattel occupying Crown land. Had Justice Chapman known that it was a boat then Admiralty law would have been applied. MPLX/MH 01:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  What you should know about this article