Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 8

message: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama15mar15,0,5315525,full.story
Here is a quote from the article:
"His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended."
Barack was called Barry in Indonesia. And here's what someone who knew him told the LA Times
"His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong."
This is a valid source and this story should be mentioned in the article. It is very noteworthy as to the canditade's childhood background as this likely shapes his world-view as an adult. The previous unsigned commment was added by User: 69.125.108.189 at 01:56, 2 April 2007
Obama's statements in this article and in several public forums contradict what these sources say and that should be noted in the article. If the Obama supporters don't think there is anything wrong with having been registered as a Muslim, they should have no problem with this fact being in the article and its NPOV becaue having been is Muslim is not a bad thing, but the facts are the facts.  
I hope we can dicuss this civilly and hopefully find a sentence that represents accurately this issue and that everyone can agree on. But consistently undoing my attempts is not the way to accomplish this and violates wikipedia's 3 undo edit rule. Rebyid 00:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please actually read the article.  'The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi, who describes himself as among Obama's closest childhood friends.' If you are going to quote items 40 years old subject to a lot of mixed evidence including in the article itself, why not quote the following "Instead of using his fists, Obama gained respect — and friends — by using his imposing stature to protect weaker children against the strong, Dharmawan said." Obviously I think neither of these types of things positive or negative belong in the article. Augustz 01:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It's probably worth noting here that under Indonesian law, everyone is forced to register as a member of one of a half-dozen set religions.  "Non-religious" is definitely not an option.  The relevant quote from the article is "He was registered as a Muslim because his father, Lolo Soetoro, was Muslim."--Pharos 02:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct.Tvoz |talk 03:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Lolo Soetoro was Obama's stepfather, not his father.  Obama's mother married Soetoro when Sen. Obama was a child.  Sen. Obama's father, Barack Obama, Sr., was an atheist. Italiavivi 22:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: And thankfully, Wikipedia isn't obligated to identify individuals in strict accordance with Islamic Law.  Welcome back from your ban, by the way, Rebyid. Italiavivi 22:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama WAS Registered "Muslim" in his Schools and attended mosques 

message: Why is it that I added something to this article about Barack Obama's opposition to a bill protecting infant victims of botched abortions and it was deleted by another user MINUTES later? Can somebody explain why CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM of Barack Obama is deleted with no explanation? Also, there is NOTHING negative about him in the whole article. Compare that to any article about a REPUBLICAN Presidential candidate and you will see what I mean. But for now, I will re-add the article from world net daily and hope that none of the censors (obama supporters/staffers) don't delete for fear it will take away from the positiveness of this fluff piece. 
Has anyone else noticed how any mention of anything controversial regarding Obama does not survive in this article. It appears to be a tool for the Obama '08 campaign and they are stomping out all opposition in fascistic style. Can someone please report what's been going on here to the wikipedia administrators.
:Propaganda placed into an article, any article, for the explicit purpose of hurting the candidate, especially when that material is not just controversial but unfounded, and further, during an election year is... Not proper.  If there are articles you feel are being similarly treated, then you should patrol them similarly.  Nothing is stopping you, so long as you can provide a legitimate case.  AltonBrownFTW 21:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please can we put these type of distorting type selective facts somewhere else? Most congressional bills are complex. Many times bills are voted up or down many times. I can always pull apart some bill and say, see, republicans didn't vote for xxx (ignoring that they voted against it for another valid reason). This type of tactic is NOT encyclopedic, and should be rejected on pages of candidates for all parties. Augustz 00:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not correct. Just because something is "complicated" does not mean it is exluded from a a wikipedia entery. Try again. But yes, this wiki is joke, little more than a propaganda tool at this point. Ernham 02:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Speaking for myself, I've also been accused of being on Hillary's and John Edwards' staffs, and I've been known to edit Nelson Rockefeller, George W. Bush and George Washington.   What can I say - those paychecks are just rolling in. Tvoz |talk 17:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too am rolling in the dough from the checks Sen. Obama sends me every month.  He paid me tons to highlight his cigarette smoking and contested "blackness" in this article! Italiavivi 17:25, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It's called checking your watchlist a lot.  Reverting inappropriate edits takes seconds; re-writing takes a bit longer. After a while you can do it in your sleep, which I sometimes do.  Not to sound hokey, but I think the only agenda that the regular editors here share is a desire to have  balanced and fair articles, without distortions inserted by people who really do have agendas, and without the annoying petty vandalism that articles like these attract.  I've said before, we don't agree on everything at all. Read the talk pages and archives. I have just under 3500 edits, and only 181 are to the Obama page, and another 183 to the Obama Talk page (which I actually find to be kind of an interesting fact -  as many edits talking about the article as actually changing the article).  If I work for Obama, then he's one hell of an understanding boss, seeing as I spend so much of my time here not editing his page.  We've already established that Hillary and the Edwardses have me on staff - what about Cat Stevens?  John Lennon? Phil Ochs?   Sorry if this doesn't convince you, but that's life.  And if you don't like my sense of humor, that's ok too. Tvoz |talk 22:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, no fighting.  Reverting inappropriate edits can be done quickly.  This does not justify the accusation of "campaign worker is watching the board."  No name calling!  However, I must add that inappropriate reverting can also be done quickly.  Unbalanced editing and unbalanced censorship of unflattering, but accurate, information about the subject of any article is inappropriate.  This type of high profile article requires reputable citation for just about every statement made, whether negative or positive.  I haven't examined what was reverted so I have no opinion as of yet.KMCtoday 00:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relentless Censorship of Anything that Would Hurt Obama 

message: From User_talk:Italiavivi:
I saw your edit on Obama reverting mine.  Actually, the vast majority of my edit is just to add "citation needed" when things are not referenced and very little editing of the actual text.  The Obama article is the type that should be very well referenced because of the nature of it.  Whoever wrote the original police part is very biased because that's not what the reference said at all.  He may have got the FOP endorsement but he got a very chilly reception at ANOTHER police association meeting (which is what the reference was about).  There, the audience applauded only once, which shows how little support he has there.  So here we have a sentence in the wikipedia article which is clearly POV hence my correction.  KMCtoday 03:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You did quite a bit of editing to the actual text, including the addition of phrases such as "not pro-law enforcement" and "anti-public safety" under an edit summary of "small clarifications."   I believe your edit summary was quite disingenuous, reading now. Italiavivi 03:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's quite clearly POV to call his bills "detrimental to law enforcement" and I've rewritten the sentence to conform with the source. FCYTravis 20:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:KMCtoday]]'s proposed expansion in the State legislature section. 

message: After a bit of spamming by an overeager congressional worker, I noticed that some members were not noted as such. Would it be alright to add to the "Senate career" section, after the ending sentence beginning "He is a member of the following Senate committees:" a note saying ", and also a member of the Congressional Black Caucus." ? Shenme 23:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say absolutely yes, as long as it is confirmed that he is actually a member of the Caucus, not a supposition that because he is African American he would be. I don't mean to imply that you are making that supposition, Shenme, just think a citation would be a good thing for this.Tvoz |talk 23:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: And - I looked at their official website and confirmed his membership, so added it to the article. I didn't anticipate any objections, but of course it can be discussed here if there are any.  Thanks for bringing it up. Tvoz |talk 23:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Congressional Black Caucus 

message: Hellfire made an edit in September.  Essentially, it says that Obama got the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police and a citation is given.  However, looking at that citation , the Chicago Tribune article actually said " 'I don't see him as pro-law enforcement," said Wheaton police Chief Mark Field. "I could spend hours with this man talking about his voting record. It is very anti-public safety." The crowd of 60 police officials applauded only once during Obama's 20-minute remarks.  The whole article is about the chilly reception that Obama got.  
This does not seem like very balanced reporting by Hellfire.  It seems like there is a POV being pushed, i.e. trying to convince the reader that Obama has police support.
It's really very hard for me to see that this is other than biased editing by Hellfire.  Furthermore, it wasn't just an honest mistake in editing because Hellfire recently reverted Italiavivi's correction accurately summarizing the citation back to the biased, one sided summary of the Chicago Tribune citation.  I was just editing to make sure edits have citations when I found this irregularity. (For now, I'm just checking facts on this and other news articles, not really writing much).  Let's not pick on Hellfire for now but the question remains, it's really hard to see why the long standing wording isn't pushing a POV by being biased editing.KMCtoday 20:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, KMC, the only "unbalanced" or "biased" thing I see here is an attempt to place offhand criticism from a single police chief on par with an official endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police.  See Wikipedia:Undue weight.  I would also ask that you cease the innuendo you are directing toward User:HailFire; despite my past disagreements with him on this article's content, he is a fine Wikipedia editor in general and has made a phenomenal positive contribution to this particular article. Italiavivi 21:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If Obama got the endorsement of the FOP, then prima facie he's got significant law enforcement support. The Chicago Tribune article essentially said there were some FOP opponents and some FOP supporters - I think "mixed reaction" is a far better term to use there than "subdued," which is rather ambiguous. Is a "subdued reaction" to be construed as opposition or merely indifference? So we can say the FOP supported him but the Illinois police chiefs were split. FCYTravis 20:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your (FCYTravis) rewrite does reflect what the Tribune article said.  The problem I have with Hailfire's edit was he or she twisted what the Tribune said and wrote it here in wikipedia.KMCtoday 20:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am actually more in agreement with HailFire's (his username is not "Hellfire") philosophy that context is important, and that sources support relevant parts of the article's text, not the other way around.  That one member of the Police Chiefs Association had bad things to say about Obama is nowhere near as notable as the Fraternal Order of Police endorsement, and drawing extra attention to this one police chief's disagreements (when there were other chiefs there to get Obama's autograph, per the source) is decidedly undue weight.  I can compromise to my version (not your "version like mine") if consensus deems it absolutely necessary, but foremost support HailFire's version (the past consensus version, which I am restoring now). Italiavivi 21:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Italiavivi's revert to HailFire's text- and changed IACP back to  HF's  "police union" (=FOP) because that is what this citation is supporting. The cite says: "Last week, Obama won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police. Union officials cited Obama's longtime support of gun-control measures and his willingness to negotiate compromises on bills backed or opposed by the FOP."   Citations are there to support the text.  If there are other reliable source citations to present a different point of view, please submit them.  Meanwhile, I find the header for this section, and the implication in KMCToday's comments, to be offensive.  The twisting that I'm seeing is not coming from HailFire or from Italiavivi.  Tvoz |talk 00:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Is this "fresh start" the reason that, only 12 minutes ago, you posted a message to another editor's User_Talk page accusing editors here of 'censorship'?  Between referring to my edits as "vandalism" and your accusing editors of "censorship" immediately before posting this "fresh start" offer, my assumption of good faith on your part has near run out, KMC. Italiavivi 02:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an attempt to step back.  The use of the term censorship was because of quick reverting though, in the interest of good faith, I'll decline from explaining further. Please note that messages to others may be done to get a better understanding of the problem without a big arguement here.  Please respect privacy.KMCtoday 02:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, no - that's not going to wash.  if you have something to say about "quick reverting", why don't you just come out and say it.  Accusation by innuendo is really not ok. Tvoz |talk 03:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of you need to deep breath here. This is a simple content dispute and the claims of censorship and complaints about the claim are not helping.  It is generally more helpful to discuss the content in question and not assume the reasons behind an editor's actions.--Bobblehead 04:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, Bobblehead, that we should keep to the issue of content.  But I think saying "The use of the term censorship was because of quick reverting though, in the interest of good faith, I'll decline from explaining further."  is exactly the opposite of assuming good faith - as was the original heading to this section - and I don't think it should be condoned.Tvoz |talk 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always been a big fan of not feeding trolls. If you ignore the pointy bits they get bored and go away. --Bobblehead 19:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't agree.  My reading of the source article is that there was a subdued response at one meeting of a police chief group, but that there also was support at that meeting.  That organization does not endorse candidates, so it seems to me the response by one group of people one day is not a notable point worth including.  The FOP, on the other hand, formally endorsed him - that means that they as an organization took a public stand of support for someone who had some positions that they disagreed with. To me, that is notable.   I have no problem at all including something about other police groups supporting or not supporting, if there are reliable sources for it, and if it was more than one police chief saying he had a problem and others being subdued.  That's just not notable.   I haven't researched this  issue - for all I know there are articles out there that talk about police groups who formally supported his opponent or made a public statement =as a group= that they opposed him. And if those exist, maybe someone will bring them forward,, and maybe they belong here.   But the point of the paragraph is that despite his having some positions that some people in law enforcement oppose, a police union - the FOP - came out in support of his candidacy.  That is notable.  Tvoz |talk 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The obvious answer to this problem is to find a new source, one addressing only his endorsement by the Fraternal Order of Police. Italiavivi 16:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem is moot at the moment, I think, because User:KMCtoday was indef blocked for being, unsurprisingly, yet another disruptive sock of dereks1x.Tvoz |talk 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Police endorsement discussion 

message: *I consider myself a fact checker, have no strong opinion for or against Obama, and have done fact checking on Republicans, too.
*If anyone has been offended by the past discussion, I am sorry.  Consider starting fresh like now.
*The main issue that I see is that there is a lack of unbiased reporting in the police issues.  An editor made it a point to include FOP endorsement and provided a reference.  Upon reading the reference, the wikipedia article seems unbalanced.  The wikipedia article should reflect a balance of police opinions about him, not just an endorsement.  Therefore, it would be inaccurate and a POV to include only the FOP endorsement and not include an overall police opinion of him(although I am willing to accept on good faith that it was an unintentional POV for the sake of compromise).
*Although I generally fact check and not edit, my editing about Obama has been continual revision not just reverting as some have done.  Can you make a similar sign of good faith.KMCtoday 02:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this "fresh start" the reason that, only 12 minutes ago, you posted a message to another editor's User_Talk page accusing editors here of 'censorship'?  Between referring to my edits as "vandalism" and your accusing editors of "censorship" immediately before posting this "fresh start" offer, my assumption of good faith on your part has near run out, KMC. Italiavivi 02:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an attempt to step back.  The use of the term censorship was because of quick reverting though, in the interest of good faith, I'll decline from explaining further. Please note that messages to others may be done to get a better understanding of the problem without a big arguement here.  Please respect privacy.KMCtoday 02:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, no - that's not going to wash.  if you have something to say about "quick reverting", why don't you just come out and say it.  Accusation by innuendo is really not ok. Tvoz |talk 03:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of you need to deep breath here. This is a simple content dispute and the claims of censorship and complaints about the claim are not helping.  It is generally more helpful to discuss the content in question and not assume the reasons behind an editor's actions.--Bobblehead 04:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, Bobblehead, that we should keep to the issue of content.  But I think saying "The use of the term censorship was because of quick reverting though, in the interest of good faith, I'll decline from explaining further."  is exactly the opposite of assuming good faith - as was the original heading to this section - and I don't think it should be condoned.Tvoz |talk 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always been a big fan of not feeding trolls. If you ignore the pointy bits they get bored and go away. --Bobblehead 19:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't agree.  My reading of the source article is that there was a subdued response at one meeting of a police chief group, but that there also was support at that meeting.  That organization does not endorse candidates, so it seems to me the response by one group of people one day is not a notable point worth including.  The FOP, on the other hand, formally endorsed him - that means that they as an organization took a public stand of support for someone who had some positions that they disagreed with. To me, that is notable.   I have no problem at all including something about other police groups supporting or not supporting, if there are reliable sources for it, and if it was more than one police chief saying he had a problem and others being subdued.  That's just not notable.   I haven't researched this  issue - for all I know there are articles out there that talk about police groups who formally supported his opponent or made a public statement =as a group= that they opposed him. And if those exist, maybe someone will bring them forward,, and maybe they belong here.   But the point of the paragraph is that despite his having some positions that some people in law enforcement oppose, a police union - the FOP - came out in support of his candidacy.  That is notable.  Tvoz |talk 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The obvious answer to this problem is to find a new source, one addressing only his endorsement by the Fraternal Order of Police. Italiavivi 16:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem is moot at the moment, I think, because User:KMCtoday was indef blocked for being, unsurprisingly, yet another disruptive sock of dereks1x.Tvoz |talk 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's start fresh

message: I don't feel Barak's picture is from a neutral point of view.  This looks like an image from the campaign for his presidency.  Before you judge compare it to the image for Tom Delay.  Don't get me wrong, I think Delay's is fair, the images IMHO should be more raw photos, not photo ops or in a good light. --User:kibbled_bits 11:17 PM, 9 April 2007
:It's a picture from his US Senate website, while Tom's is from the congressional pictorial directory.  Perhaps the editors of Tom's website should use better pictures on that article. *shrug* It's a picture of Obama in front of the building where he works, not sure how it's a violation of NPOV. Now, a picture of Obama in front of the White House, that might be questionable. --Bobblehead 04:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: It seems to be here. Myspace advertised it in the "Cool New People" section. Any way or reason to fit it in his wiki article? --Ubiq 01:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That profile is not officially managed or sanctioned by the Obama campaign, it even carries a disclaimer right on the profile: "This profile was not created, and is not managed or endorsed by Senator Barack Obama. For more information, please contact the moderator." Bjewiki 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. My bad. Silly me. --Ubiq 02:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama's Myspace 

message: Using the words controversy and scrutiny are meaningless-- what did he do that was terrible? Nothing. 
Smearing another human being requires very little intelligence. People who love to do it the most tend to be of low character themselves. 
128.138.230.150 18:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon comment moved from top 

message: Without question, Sen. Barack Obama's actions have come under intense scrutiny since announcing his bid for the White House.  Allegations of controversy have arisen concerning many elements of Sen. Obama's life and person, including on this article's Talk page.  Some dispute whether or not many of these elements even qualify as controversial, and many dispute these elements based upon notability.  It's the goal of this survey to gather a snapshot of consensus concerning the notability of these many elements.
If you are a subscriber to the opinion essay "polls are evil," you're in no way required to participate.  No one's forcing you, I simply ask that you not go out of your way to disrupt those who don't mind using a snapshot format.
I gathered most of these items from Talk page archives, and tried to present them as accurately and neutrally as possible.  In some cases, I could not find extensive sources, but used the sources listed by past Talk participants.  If I have missed any items/elements, feel free to add them in a sub-section with format similar to those below.
:Please add *Notable or *Not notable following each item, based upon whether or not you feel each item is notable enough for inclusion in the article, then sign your vote with ~~~~.
----
=== 2004: Denied 'unequivocally' running for president in 2008 ===
"I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense.  So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." 
*Not notable.  Changing one's mind is not inherently controversial; he is entitled to changing his mind without it be construed as a "controversy."  Also, this detail is already prominently noted at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this would be a good place for it.  Would you care to give it a shot yourself, HailFire? Italiavivi 21:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the most notable info has already be added by previous edits citing commentators Younge (The Nation), Crouch (New York Daily News), and Page (Houston Chronicle) <click on author's names to see where each is cited and to read their articles>. The reader is presented with sharply contrasting viewpoints ("Black Like Me," "Not Black Like Me," and "...Silly Question") and can decide for him/herself what's controversy and what's just useful, notable information. There's certainly other sources we could add, but I'm not sure they would offer anything new beyond what's already eloquently addressed in these three articles. --HailFire 22:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I should have clicked before I typed—the links to both the Crouch and Page articles are now broken. If they can't be recovered (just tried), we should come up with alternative wording and sources. For starters, there's this and this. --HailFire 22:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Trying this. --HailFire 06:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: He was never accused of buying stocks and then proposing fundng that would benefit those stocks.  There are no allegations of illegality or ethics violations. Mykll42 23:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The exhaustive controversies survey. 

message: "I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense.  So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." 
*Not notable.  Changing one's mind is not inherently controversial; he is entitled to changing his mind without it be construed as a "controversy."  Also, this detail is already prominently noted at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2004: Denied 'unequivocally' running for president in 2008 

message: Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves.  His "blackness" has been questioned. 
*Notable.  Sen. Obama's racial identity is a notable, widely discussed, reliably sourced, controversial matter. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this would be a good place for it.  Would you care to give it a shot yourself, HailFire? Italiavivi 21:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the most notable info has already be added by previous edits citing commentators Younge (The Nation), Crouch (New York Daily News), and Page (Houston Chronicle) <click on author's names to see where each is cited and to read their articles>. The reader is presented with sharply contrasting viewpoints ("Black Like Me," "Not Black Like Me," and "...Silly Question") and can decide for him/herself what's controversy and what's just useful, notable information. There's certainly other sources we could add, but I'm not sure they would offer anything new beyond what's already eloquently addressed in these three articles. --HailFire 22:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I should have clicked before I typed—the links to both the Crouch and Page articles are now broken. If they can't be recovered (just tried), we should come up with alternative wording and sources. For starters, there's this and this. --HailFire 22:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Trying this. --HailFire 06:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Race and "blackness" 

message: In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation.  Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it." 
*Not notable.  No laws broken, no wrong-doing alleged.  A minor "appearance of impropriety" at best. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Antoin Rezko]] real estate 

message: Sen. Obama purchased more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors.  Obama said he “did not see any potential conflict in getting advice, in terms of a stockbroker,” from Mr. Haywood. The senator said he told the broker he wanted an “aggressive strategy” for investing, but he did not identify stocks, and has referred to their arrangement as a blind trust.  Obama later sold the stocks at a net loss of $13,000.
*Not notable.  Blind trust which Sen. Obama liquidated at a net loss. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  George W. Haywood stock investing 

message: Sen. Obama is a vocal supporter of Wake Up Wal-Mart.  He has criticized Wal-Mart's labor standards, including pay rates and allegedly diminished benefits. 
*Not notable.  This is a political position, and belongs at Political views of Barack Obama.  Editors cannot claim every single contentious political position, such as labor/union views in this case, as a "controversy." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of [[Wal-Mart]] and [[Wake Up Wal-Mart]] support 

message: As a state senator, Sen. Obama voted "present" on some bills related to abortion, concealed firearms, and strip club zoning.  Obama's campaign has explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of a bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to "score points." 
*Not notable.  Senators are entitled to voting "present," especially when faced with bills that contain poison pills. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voting "present" as Illinois state senator 

message: Due to America's familiarity with Saddam Hussein, some have drawn attention to Sen. Obama's middle name also being Hussein.  Polling indicates that many believe Obama's middle name will hurt him in a presidential election , and Republican Party supporters have drawn attention to his middle name (referring to Obama in full as "Barack Hussein Obama") on several occasions.  Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hussein 

message: CNN mistakenly used Obama's last name instead of "Osama" in the headline of a report on the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader.   Yahoo News mistakenly attached a photograph of Obama to a caption which read "Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida."   Both CNN and Yahoo! have issued apologies/explanations.  Fox News chief Roger Ailes has deliberately switched Bin Laden's name with Obama's in jokes. 
*Not notable.  Typographical/technical errors might be warranted on the news outlets' articles, but decidedly not here.  Roger Ailes' remark belongs at Fox News alongside a section on the Nevada Democratic Party canceling a Fox-hosted debate due to the "joke." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama/Osama 

message: Sen. Obama is a smoker , and is in the middle of a public effort to quit smoking .  His effort includes the use of Nicorette, a nicotine replace gum.  Michelle Obama agreed to her husband's presidential campaign on the condition that he cease smoking for good, and calls herself "the one who outed" her husband's smoking.   Fox News' John Gibson covered Obama's smoking as a "dirty little secret" during a Fox News broadcast.   A "Quit Smoking with Obama" effort has been assembled by participants on Obama's campaign site. 
*Notable.  Michelle Obama's reluctance for her husband to run for president was widely covered prior to his announcement, and that his agreement to quit smoking played a part in assuaging her concerns is decidedly notable.  He has been public and open about his effort to quit smoking, despite attempts by political opponents to use it as an attack.  Multiple reliable sources, including primary source interviews with himself and his wife specifically on the subject. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effort to quit smoking 

message: Shortly after Sen. Obama officially announced his candidacy for president, Australian Prime Minister John Howard unleashed a scathing attack of Obama's stance on the Iraq War.   Howard said "I think that would just encourage those who wanted completely to destabilise and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for (an) Obama victory," and that "If I was running al-Qaeda in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008, and pray, as many times as possible, for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats."  Obama brushed aside Howard's criticism, characterizing him as a close personal friend of George W. Bush, and highlighting Australia's comparative troop contribution in Iraq.  Howard was harshly criticized by Australian opposition leader Kevin Rudd, Republican U.S. Senator John Cornyn of Texas, and several others in response.
*Notable, including in the main article.  This is a highly unusual partisan attack from a foreign head of government.  The notability of this is undeniable. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism from Australian Prime Minister [[John Howard]] 

message: See Insight Magazine#Madrassa.  A false report originating from Washington Times-owned Insight Magazine accuses one of Sen. Obama's elementary schools in Indonesia of being an Islamic seminary (a "wahhabist" "madrassa"), and alleges Sen. Obama to have been a Muslim in the past.   The report bears a resemblance to a false email forward that has been in circulation for some time.   The report also claims to have received their information from operatives of Sen. Hillary Clinton.  The claims against the school itself are debunked by a CNN investigation in Jakarta , claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself, and Sen. Clinton denies any involvement with Insight Magazine whatsoever.  Fox News issued a retraction, warning their reporters to take care with information retrieved from the internet. 
*Notable, but must be written in full compliance with WP:BLP and WP:Undue weight.  Must note that the report was fully debunked, wholly false, and originated from a right-wing outlet.  Only warrants a summary, with full details belonging at Insight, Fox News, or a scandal-specific article. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  False "madrassa" report/smear/attack 

message: Two of Sen. Obama's ancestors, a great-great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-grandmother on his mother's side , each owned two slaves.
*Not notable. That's four "greats" and five "greats," for those too lazy to count. Italiavivi 20:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mother's ancestors owned slaves 

message: During the exploratory phase of his candidacy, Obama paid off $375 worth of parking tickets and late fees that he incurred during law school at Harvard. 
*Not notable.  Pardon my brevity, but give me a break. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He was never accused of buying stocks and then proposing fundng that would benefit those stocks.  There are no allegations of illegality or ethics violations. Mykll42 23:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parking tickets at Harvard 

message: In regards to the murders at Virginia Tech he said: "There's also another kind of violence that we're going to have to think about. It's not necessarily the physical violence, but the violence that we perpetrate on each other in other ways," he said, and goes on to catalogue other forms of "violence."
There's the 'verbal violence' of Imus.
There's "the violence of men and women who have worked all their lives and suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them because their job is moved to another country."
There's "the violence of children whose voices are not heard in communities that are ignored,""there's a lot of different forms of violence in our society, and so much of it is rooted in our incapacity to recognize ourselves in each other." 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070419/cm_rcp/obama_not_ready_for_prime_time
This may be one of the biggest blunders yet in the primaries. If this article has any trace of NPOV left it should be mentioned. It may very well cost him the election.71.183.135.248 01:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any source other than some random opinion column? If not, then it probably is not that big a deal. Abeg92We are all Hokies! 01:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well that's because it is an opinion section while your is trying to be news unless you are admitting it is nothing but an opinion. Gdo01 04:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I had not seen this discussion when I came on tonight and removed the Huffington item, so it was not done in response to the above.  Why did I remove it? Well, for one thing it is  pure opinion published in a blog by a music writer who is a bit more qualified to write about Sanjaya than about Obama, and the item was posted without attribution to the writer anyway - it said "opponents have compared" - which opponents?  Not supported by the source. Actually not flattering if you bothered to read the source, but that's not why I took it out either.   Yes, we have some opinion pieces as references, but sparingly.  Let's see, there's an opinion piece by Peggy Noonan.   Well, I'd say she's pretty qualified to have a political opinion piece quoted, and it was from that hotbed of liberalism, The Wall Street Journal - and I doubt she'd appreciate being called an Obama supporter. Stanley Crouch's opinion piece is here - from The Daily News, and I'm not sure that one can be called  a flattering piece by a supporter either.  So essentially 71.183.135.248's implication that  we keep only flattering opinion pieces in the article is just incorrect.    As for the comments about violence?  The source you're presenting is pure opinion, and completely misrepresents the speech that Obama gave, which was linked on the front page of RealClearPOlitics where your piece appeared.  Here it is for your convenience.  I don't think this speech is necessarily notable enough to be included in our article, but if we do I assure you it won't be from the second-hand slanted piece you linked above, but will be to what the man actually said.   And I'm changing the offensive and misleading heading of this section.  I don't think a talk page is a place for sensationalist editorializing.   And one last thing: WP:CABAL.  Give it a rest. Tvoz |talk 07:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: "It may very well cost him the election"??? I don't think so. Copy his entire, actual speech into Wikisource and be done with it.Flatterworld 17:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama's comments on violence 

message: The picture we have at the top of the page is the third picture in the last three days.  I don't have any particular preference, but it would be a good idea to keep it relatively stable.  Thoughts? — mrmaroon25 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not really rotating. :Image:SenatorBarackObama.jpg is apparently owned by the photographer and not the US Senate, therefore is not free and can't be used, :Image:Barack Obama.jpg was deleted, and now we're on to :Image:ObamaBarack.jpg. --Bobblehead 02:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the J.smith Wikipedia received an email from the photographer claiming ownership and when J.smith contacted Barack Obama's "people" and they confirmed the ownership. Basically, the picture of him in front of the capitol building is copyrighted. --Bobblehead 01:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was a good picture :( He looks goofy in the current one. --Ubiq 14:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rotating Picture? 

message: Hi, I have some substantive edits I'd like to make involving Obama staffers and his campaign that aren't covered in the article, but its on protection. What's the timeline for taking it off protection? I'm also a new user - is that the problem? thanks Nitroleviathan 15:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is semi-protected and you appear to be past the 48-hour new account restriction, so you should be able to edit the page. Happy editing. --Bobblehead 18:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taking this off protection 

message: This entire wikipedia article seems like it was written by the candidate himself...or possibly a Republican wishing to stamp out Hillary Clinton.
Clinton supporters, Obama is just Republican ploy to stop Clinton at whatever cost... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.48.134.139 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 29 April 2007
This is very likely because when some slightly less than positive (but not negative) info is placed, it immediately gets reverted by a very loyal band of 3-4 users who only allow the most positive info.  This is proof of POV.Lawman8 23:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article 

message: In archive 8, there is an interesting discussion about Obama's police endorsement.  The current language may give the reader the impression that he has police support but the real story is that he possibly is OPPOSED by a majority of police.  See the very informative article that's listed as a footnote (reference).  If so, the current version (before my edit \) is POV, contrary to wikipedia policy.  I hope Obama supporters don't just plain revert it but abide by NPOV.Lawman8 18:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been hashed out, as you know, and the objections that were raised were bogus ones raised by a sockpuppet of a user who is under a community ban - done to disrupt.  Nothing has changed since then - this endorsement is ancient history about a long-past election. The wording is being reverted as it was neutral and accurate. If you object, the thing to do is to say so here, especially since you are well aware of the previous discussion, according to the comment you just posted - not to go in and change it to how you want it to be.  So, go ahead and make your objection here, but don't start an edit war.  And,  not for the first time,  you don't know who is an Obama supporter and who is not, so don't make assumptions.  Tvoz |talk 19:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

text: KMCToday was one of a series of ids banned as sockpuppets attempting to evade dereks1x's community ban. It had nothing to do with his views. Tvoz |talk 18:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was reading the content of KMCtoday's comments, not the mechanics of the ban.  Some of the comments make sense.  Hitler drank water.  However, water is not bad just because Hitler drank it.Lawman8 18:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You'll get one response: Go back to archive 8 and re-read the discussion that took place there. Nothing has changed, as I said above. I reinstated the NPOV and accurate wording that we had - I have nothing more to say on the matter at present, unless someone brings up something new, which you have not.  Your complaint was bogus then and it is bogus now.   And your concept of "compromise" wording, which dereks1x used across several articles, under several names, is also invalid as you're using it here: a compromise requires more than one party's agreement.  So what you are doing, as I am quite sure you know, is merely being disruptive. Tvoz |talk 20:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  possible deceptive editing 

message: I don't quite understand the 'African-American' thing or hybridised nationality nomenclature very well, but I understand Africa is the content of origin of his fathers side, but there's no mention anywhere in the article of his middle eastern origins?  Is this because in the current American socio-political climate there is a dogma around the middle east forming?  Or has he personally overlooked this because of such?  Jachin 06:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It could also be because he has no Middle Eastern heritage? His biological father was Kenyan (That's in Africa), his biological mother was from Kansas with European ancestry. Hope that answers your question about why there is no mention of Middle Eastern heritage. --Bobblehead 18:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle eastern heritage. 

message: I'm not sure if this article needs a link to Barack Obama's MySpace account.  It seems legit enough, but I'm just wondering if this is the sort of link that is worthy of inclusion in this article.  It just seems a bit to, I dunno, *lowbrow* for this article maybe.  Let's talk about this.  Thanks, Rahzel 21:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming the MySpace account's now officially "owned" and maintained by the Obama campaign, I see no reason why it wouldn't be notable enough for inclusion. Shem(talk) 15:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to MySpace site? 

message: Does anyone else see a problem with this sentence? 
:"Obama met Michelle Robinson in 1988 while employed as a summer associate at Sidley & Austin, the law firm where she also worked.[128]"
Why does the name of the law firm need to be mentioned?  People are interested in how the two met, not in the name of the firm.  If that is important put in somewhere else.  Just my opinion. Thanks. Steve Dufour 02:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the wording of this section a little, hoping to make it a little more natural without removing anyone's precious tidbit of information. Steve Dufour 23:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are political geeks romance challenged? 

message: Myspace / Obama on Rezko deal: It was a mistake / Obama says he was unaware of stocks in trust fund
http://www.suntimes.com/news/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0703080154mar08,0,5354218.story
Barack's disclosure of actions surrounding these events circumvents any foul play. These accusations have been dismissed largely for the most part, they are simply speculation. Media organization have already taken notice of this with strict scrutiny. Nuclearj 20:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Last I checked, biography articles here on Wikipedia  are full of this kind of information. If we took statments, like those from Obama, at face value then any information even remotely critical of an individual would never make it in an article here. Hempbilly 16:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not only his statements, it was his actions and evidence provided. There is no controversyNuclearj 16:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think it should be mentioned, here why don't you read this, than claim Wiki shouldnt be used for this type of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani#Controversies
Some claim that Giuliani knew all along that his first wife Regina Peruggi was his second cousin (Peruggi was the daughter of Giuliani's father's cousin[citation needed])
No citation, no names of who, I mean c'mon peopel this is horrible...
--Peterpressure 20:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No controversies? Cmon guys!! 

message: The media is all over this, he had MySpace yank down a fan site with 160,000 friends to have it himself! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.205.32.93 (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it could be mentioned. However, it is a little more complex than you say. Steve Dufour 14:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, "more complex" meaning the guy running the unofficial setup locked the campaign out of the MySpace profile and demanded $50,000 to give them access again.  Obama's camp then invoked MySpace's policy concerning names of notable public figures, and was given the URL.  I came back to Wikipedia after reading about this MySpace controversy, and want to make sure that any inclusion of it in Obama's article is accurate 'bout the situation's context. Shem(talk) 15:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is probably more appropriate for the Obama presidential election campaign article than this one, though. --Bobblehead 17:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Bobblehead - if appropriate at all. And Shem's concern seems valid - care should be taken in researching what actually happened before posting POV conclusions like "to have it himself" in the article. Tvoz |talk 17:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama's myspace 

message: Barack Obama has been cited consistently of having African and European ancestry. I feel that the label "the 5th African American senator" should be replaced with "5th Senator with African American heritage". The term "with" is more accurate than "of" African American heritage. I propose the following revision:
The U.S. Senate Historical Office lists him as only the fifth Senator with African American heritage in U.S. history and the only Senator with African American heritage currently serving in the U.S. Senate.  Nuclearj 22:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's not the language  the US Senate Historical Office uses. Read the source please. He is identified there as being the 5th African American senator, which is the language we reached consensus on here.  Tvoz |talk 22:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the US historical office refers to him solely as an "African American", it does not make it factually correct. The list was made to compile the few senators of African American heritage and subsequently Barack was included. The statement is inherently incomplete and gives readers a FALSE impression of his heritage. It can easily be corrected by including the term "with" African American heritage. If references are desired, one easily recognizing his mixed heritage may be included. 165.91.99.20 23:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: But he does not have "African American heritage" since he is the first African American in his family. Steve Dufour 23:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  Yes, agreed/correct Steve, perhaps something along the line of "with African heritage" would be best suited. Nuclearj 23:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We all have African heritage. :-)  Steve Dufour 00:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  That comment does not aid to the conversation. The Africa you mention is before the concept of continent was created Michiganw12 02:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Right, and he is African American. Tvoz |talk 03:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referred to as "African American" Senator in first paragraph, when not fully African. Barack is of mixed Ancestry 

message: this blog post states that after being a lecturer at the university of chicago, he became a full professor (i don't know for how long) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnjosephbachir (talk • contribs) 16:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not according to his posted Univ of Chicago curriculum vitae, which would be more reliable than a blogpost. Tvoz |talk 16:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  professor 

message: Is it appropriate to list him in this category if he has not explicitly stated having been an atheist/agnostic in his earlier years?  Doubting God or questioning God doesn't automatically make one an atheist. Italiavivi 20:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - I removed it earlier because the article does not specifically support the contention, despite what edit summaries say. There is an implication in one of the quotes, but I'd say if being agnostic or atheist was an important identification for him in his younger days that should be expressed, and then the cat makes sense. Otherwise, I think it should be out. Tvoz |talk 21:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's also keep in mind that being agnostic oftentimes goes in conjunction with being an atheist or a theist (i.e. there are agnostic Christians, Jews, etc). --Ubiq 00:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Ex-atheists/agnostics 

message: Please leave Obama's infobox as is. They current method is the unform method used on other senator's aticles. The infoboxes allow for uniform representation of information of similar items. Obama is no different from any other senator and as such his aricle should be treated the same. Rougher07 22:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox Uniformity 

message: Hmm.. In the last 2 days, there have been 50 edits. 2 of them have been productive, 1 by Windyjarhead and one by OrphanBot. Thoughts on semi-protecting this article again? --Bobblehead (rants) 23:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It definitely seems to be attracting a lot of hostile attention. I think semi-protection would be a good thing. CSWarren 23:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it seems prudent. Tvoz |talk 05:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protection? 

message: See http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp, among many others.  The article currently states in the opening paragraph that he is Muslim.  This is incorrect.  This has also been mentioned once already on this page, and has been ignored. 208.120.16.139 05:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct - it was vandalism. Tvoz |talk 05:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama is Christian, not Muslim 

message: ABC news said the Rezko deal is INFAMOUS: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/05/obama_looks_to_.html  Time to put it in the article! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.149.249.41 (talk) 01:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The INFAMOUS Rezko land deal 

message: Our policy regarding non-free content indicates that on the image description page of non-free content, the source and, if different, the copyright owner must be clearly identified.  The copyright owner of the photograph is not identified and, as such, I have tagged the image with .  The image is a candidate for speedy deletion per the fourth criterion.
I would like to suggest that the situation may be resolved amicably by attempting to contact Barack Obama via his campaign manager or Senate secretary. If he is the copyright owner of an image of his father, he may be willing to license a free image of his father under the GFDL, and that option should definitely be first in correspondence with his staff.  --Iamunknown 21:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If such a attempt were to be made, I'd suggest that either this image or this image would be stronger candidates for inclusion in the Barack Obama#Early life and career section. However, I would also suggest that none of these images are essential, and this WPCD Selection feature article, which currently contains only free-use images, should aim to stay that way. --HailFire 22:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Though those images were given courtesy of Barack Obama, he may not be the copyright owner.  He might know, of course, who is.  --Iamunknown 19:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image:Obama sr.jpg is a candidate for speedy deletion 

message: Obama's Basketball Years 
Should we find a place for this info? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.121.195 (talk) 02:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Added here. --HailFire 15:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Barry" and Basketball 

message: After reviewing the ongoing discussion regarding Senator Barack Obama's categorization as an "Irish American Politician," I have found that eight registered Wikipedians and one unregistered IP contributor have offered opinions. Of those, five have expressed support for the categorization, two have expressed opposition and one was unsure. This discussion has been open for a period of seven days.
Support     	Oppose    	Unsure
Windyjarhead	MikeURL   	MrBlondNYC
Nuclearj    	Tvoz      	
Steve Dufour	Italiavivi	
Michiganw12 	          	
Gloriamarie 	          	
I therefore conclude that the Wikipedia community consents to Obama's categorization as an Irish American Politician, albeit with some hesitation. I will add the category to the article, and I ask that no user remove it without the courtesy of reading and contributing to this discussion. Windyjarhead 16:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to go on record saying that I oppose the category "Irish-American" being applied to Barack Obama until further info about his mother's heritage is provided. Furthermore, the discovery of his Irish ancestor isn't even mentioned in the article. If this ruling is valid, some proof of why the category applies should be in the article. MrBlondNYC 02:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that you neglected to mention to anyone that you were planning to close discussion at a given time, or that this was some kind of poll, and it's quite a stretch to say that the Wikipedia community thinks any such thing based on comments from a few editors.  But in the interests of moving this along, here's an idea:  I personally have no problem with an indication of anyone's ancestry, if it is confirmed, so I have no problem in theory with saying that such and such an ancestor on his mother's side was from Ireland.  But I think calling him an Irish-American politician is misleading and kind of silly, at best, assuming good faith.  So maybe you can look through available categories and see if there are any more specifically for ancestry.  I maintain that the concept of "Irish-American" implies a larger part of a person;s ancestry, and implies a self-identification as such or an identification by reliable sources as such.  I expect that you won't find sources that refer to Obama as an Irish -American politician, and therefore I think putting him in that category is inappropriate.  Tvoz |talk 05:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Category:People of Irish descent   - let's try that. Tvoz |talk 05:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except even then it's a stretch to refer to Barack Obama as being of "Irish descent".  Ethnicity is generally defined by the largest components of your ancestry and is more often then not identified by the group that you most associate with. As an example, my father's side of the family had the unfortunate distinction of being Protestants in Catholic France. During the Inquisition era they fled to Holland and remained there for a couple of generations, popped over to Scotland and Ireland for a couple more generations, and then off to the US. So even though I have a few Dutch, Scottish, and Irish ancestors in my family tree doesn't mean I'm of those descents. My father's side of the family is still considered solely of French descent because that is the majority of their descent and the group they most associate with. As MrBlondNYC says, we just don't know enough about Obama's mother ancestry to know if her families connection to Ireland is more in passing or if there is a stronger connection. Heck, even the source used to claim his heritage says that the connection has possibly been traced. It would probably be good to include Obama's ancestry via his mother's side of the family, but at this point all that is known is that some unknown percentage of that ancestry may have been from Ireland. Although, I can tell you that the Dunham name is possibly of English descent and there was a John Dunham that appeared in the US shortly after the Mayflower... Of course, no idea if Obama's mom was at all related to that Dunham, so saying Obama is an English American is just as sketchy.--Bobblehead (rants) 17:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I would agree with that.   I was trying to find a category that I could live with, if indeed there was consensus that one was needed, as I can't live with Irish-American politicians, but the fact is I am not comfortable with this one either and I don't see any consensus for including it.  Tvoz |talk 00:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia has spoken

message: Barack Obama is in third place according to this poll 
:That poll's over a month old, and the only poll that shows such results.  There was also one poll that showed Obama above Hillary, but someone removed it on grounds of Undue Weight. Italiavivi 02:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barack Obama place 

message: Since this whole Rezko section is rather convoluted in the various ongoing discussions, many of which are unrelated to the content and I'm trying to avoid the appearance of replying to an unrelated comment by making a new subsection. Anyways, Mdc362's proposal is a definite improvement over the excessively long addition by Hempbilly, but still seems a bit too detailed for what (so far) is just a poor choice in friends.  At this point there hasn't been any evidence of Obama exchanging political favors for Rezko's campaign contributions (which is a key point in the Abramoff scandal) or receiving any special treatment in the real estate deals (unlike Duke Cunningham). I don't have time for further thoughts right now, just wanted to at least do a partial reply to the content now that the RFCU is completed. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems (at least to me) that this topic has been mentioned in the press enough to warrant inclusion in this article.  When I compare it to material in other politician's articles, it seems of equal noteworthiness (ex. these controversies, specifically the one about AIDS, on Bill Frist).  I don't see how devoting a few sentences to it under "Personal life" would violate WP:NPOV.--Mbc362 01:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never been comfortable comparing one article to another. The editors on Bill Frist's article should definitely take a look at his article and remove some of the content in the "controversies" section (which I don't believe should exist at all).  That being said, I'm also not of the opinion that Rezko can not being mentioned in this article. Just that if it is included, it should be limited to at most two sentences and make very clear that Rezko's charges have nothing to do with Obama. As far as I've seen so far in the press coverage, it's a guilt by association situation, perhaps made worse by the Abramoff situation.  All in all, it's still nothing more than Obama made a poor choice in friends 17 years ago. --Bobblehead (rants) 06:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Bobblehead.  The editors at Bill Frist's article should tighten their standards for "controversy" inclusion, rather than pass those standards here to Obama's article. Italiavivi 20:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Bobblehead, but think the Rezko relationship is noteworthy enough (e.g., signficant amount of local press coverage here in Chicago) to add to the article. That said, no more is needed than a description of the relationship which clearly indicates that Obama has nothing to do with Rezko's charges. Jogurney 19:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Man I've been saying to include the Rezco deal for months. Finally some of you are coming around Manic Hispanic 06:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Trying this edit about Obama's 2005 house purchase. The above edit by Mbc362 might be better integrated with the Antoin Rezko article that is now also linked from the Notes section of this one. --HailFire 15:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: HailFire's edit works for me - gives the information, but also gives it proper weight. Tvoz |talk 15:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My thoughts on Rezko

message: There is a section about his book being translated into other languages and a picture.  Yet nothing about Rezko.  The smart reader is going to think that this article is lopsided.
About mbc's edit, the smart reader may conclude that the edit (though well intentioned) seems to sound like an Obama deposition denying involvement.  Why not just say what happened which actually makes Obama look like a good guy because he admits that everything was legal even though the whole deal doesn't look good in the papers.  Why not....
......(mbc's edit with new sentence at the end)...Although no laws are alleged to have been broken, Obama said that "There's no doubt that this was a mistake on my part. 'Boneheaded' would be accurate," Obama said in a telephone interview Friday. "There's no doubt I should have seen some red flags in terms of me purchasing a piece of property from him." (from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/16/AR2006121600729.html)
If too long, you could cut out the phrase about boneheaded.Chergles 01:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: very big omission and lopsided

message: * Joe Biden ("was raised in his Irish American mother's Catholic religion.")
* Wesley Clark ("Although his mother was Methodist, Clark chose a Baptist church after moving to Little Rock and continued attending it throughout his childhood.")
* Hillary Rodham Clinton (she was "raised in a Methodist family")
* Mike Gravel ("he was raised and educated (in parochial schools) as a Roman Catholic.")
* John Kerry ("His mother was a Protestant, but his other immediate family members were reportedly observant Roman Catholics")
* Rudy Giuliani ("The [Giuliani] family was Roman Catholic.")
* Cat Stevens ("his father was Greek Orthodox and his mother a Baptist, and Steven was sent to a Catholic school.") Italiavivi 00:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there's anything wrong with stating his parents' religions. I think problems can arise though if it's done out of context. If you're talking about Obama's religion, it makes sense to mention his parents' religions. If you're just mentioning the existence of his parents, however, it doesn't make sense to state their religions. I speculate that this is a delicate neutrality issue because of anti-Muslim sentimentality in the US, where if editors perceive that Obama's Muslimness is being highlighted in the article, they may become concerned that others are trying to promote it to spur racist/religious-based hatred of Obama. In conclusion, I don't think that for Obama, the religions should be stated in a context unaffiliated with religious discussion. Organ123 02:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. Just please note also that Obama has no "Muslimness". Tvoz |talk 03:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Noted. I meant to say his parents' Muslimness, although I don't have any particular knowledge about Obama's religion. Organ123 05:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It depends on whether it is really relevant to his notability. In the case of Giulani and Kerry, their catholicism was in itself remarked on and discussed. If Obama's stepfather's religion meets that bar at sometime in the future, then OK. As I said, I've seen nothing yet that indicates it does now. Hornplease 03:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty silly to claim that the parts of Obama's past that've intersected with Islam haven't been remarked on or discussed.  Also, editors responded excessively to the Cat Stevens example, said nothing of Hillary, Wes Clark, Rudy, and the other politicians listed above.  Why can we mention Methodist family backgrounds, Baptist family backgrounds, and Catholic family backgrounds but not Islam (his father formerly, and his step-father) or atheism/agnosticism (both his mother and father)? Italiavivi 02:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The logic in the above doesn't exactly flow: White House caterers probably won't be consulting his Wikipedia article for food preferences. Tvoz |talk 00:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The reason why none of this discussion concerns policy is because there aren't really any relevant policies for this debate.  Not everything is covered by policy.  Sometimes we have to rely on informed judgment.  --notJackhorkheimer  (talk / contribs)  16:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, which is why I mentioned editorial judgment and relevance.  My point is that we shouldn't be relying on what is done or not done in other Wikipedia articles to justify what we do without reference to policy or guidelines and as a substitute for editorial judgment and assessing relevance. · jersyko talk 21:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: How about that his atheist father left when he was 2 years old and had no impact on his growing up and that he says his mother had no religious identification?  it is just simply irrelevant and seems to be raised here from time to time  in order to push a particular POV.  Tvoz |talk 19:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wasn't he largely raised by his grandparents for much of his life, and might that be a factor?  Unschool 19:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It doesn't matter really what the POV is behind the editors trying to include this, since we should focus on what makes sense.  As for relevance, of course it is relevant; at the very least it indicates he has some familiarity with Islam, which, for example, a Muslim-American voter might like to know.  The only reason I can see against inclusion is that somehow ignorant people might take his familial connections to Islam the wrong way--not a very strong justification for omitting information from an encyclopedia.  --notJackhorkheimer  (talk / contribs)  22:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles where parents'/family's religion is noted 

message: The third para is incorrect, since the latest polls show H Clinton widening her lead.  Please correct this lest the article slip into POV territory. Decoratrix 14:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clinton lead in polls 

message: The category indicating that the subject is a former atheist/agnostic has been removed. I believe that the inclusion of that category is based upon statements the subject himself may have made in his autobiography. If anyone can point to any specific information from that book, or any other reliable primary source, (specifically not including book reviews and the like) which indicates that the subject was at any time something that could be described as non-Christian, or clearly states that he "converted" to Christianity, then I believe the category might be able to be replaced. John Carter 14:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See also past discussion last time someone tried adding this category.  It was agreed that this category is not appropriate for Obama's article.  Italiavivi 20:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Still agree that it doesn't belong. Tvoz |talk 20:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen no argument that warrants the inclusion of this category into the article. It should be left out until one is made.Turtlescrubber 21:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious beliefs 

message: ===Why cover up, Obama didn't===
Why cover up and hide Rezko affair.  Even Obama doesn't cover up and confesses what really happened (what he did was not a crime).  Why cover it up here and hide it in the fine print?  Whatever the intent, the product is bad (cover up).  The discussion has also been removed here to.  I think everyone agreed to the language but not the cover up into fine printUTAFA 01:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing has been covered up - the discussions (for example:,   and maybe others)-  have been archived along with all other discussions that are over a certain number of days old (I forget what it's set at now) because of the volume. Nothing nefarious is going on. As for the article - we have discussed this over and over and some people had a poll, others had long exchanges, and the net result was consensus that the Rezko matter was not notable enough to merit a major mention in this main article. The footnote covers it - there is a reference article and a wikilink to the main Antoin Rezko article where there is more information about this.  There is really no story here - to say "confesses" , "not a crime" and "cover up"  here is misleading and POV and makes me wonder why you are so insistent that this be given such weight in this article. As has been said over and over and over, it is a non-story. Tvoz |talk 02:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, the archive part explains it, but "not a story" is untrue.  Why then did Obama tell the Chicago Tribune that he is sorry he did the deal?  That's news.  That's why it belongs in the article.  It actually helps him because others, like Clinton and Bush, were not so candid and got bit in the *** afterwards.  At least Obama is upfront about the whole thing.  That's another reason why it's worthy of inclusion and not in the fine print.UTAFA 02:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree - the relevant information is here, but putting it into the text is elevating it into a higher level of notability, where it does not belong. And whether or not it "helps him" is not relevant and is not at all a reason to add it to the main text - this article isn't trying to help him or hurt him - it's a biography, with a great deal to cover in a limited amount of space if we want to retain our FA status, so choices of what should be prominent are made, and the choice here was to not include this in the main text.  Same decision was made about lots of other things that could be written about him, and same decisions are made all the time all over the project.  I say again, this is a non-story.  Tvoz |talk 03:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I've seen, Obama's "apology" was not in regards to having done anything wrong by purchasing the home but more of an expression of regret for purchasing the home because it gives Obama the appearance of being related to the crap that Rezko has done. So a better correlation that you could have made would have been for Al Gore to say he was sorry for being Vice President when Clinton had inappropriate contact with Monica.--Bobblehead (rants) 18:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And after about 5 minutes of google searching, here's an article that pretty much explains what I'm talking about. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This Rezko scandal is a big deal.  Obama accepts a $300,000 under the table donation from gangster Rezko and wikipedia wants to relegate that to a footnote.  Notability yes: the New Republic states this scandal is the single greatest thing to derail obama's pursuit of the presidency.  Put this material back in the text where it belongs or this article slips even deeper into an obama POV advert. Decoratrix 19:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that comment an example of assessing and writing about the subject in an NPOV way?  There was no $300,000 donation. Tvoz |talk 19:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you read the article Decoratrix? I'm guessing not, (especially since the direct link doesn't work, but if you go to this google search  its the link called "The plot against Obama"). There was no exchange of money between Rezko and Obama.  If there was a $300,000 "donation" to Obama, it was by the owner of the property, not Rezko.--Bobblehead (rants) 19:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes i read the article.  Please avoid ad hominem remarks.  In fact i hope all will read the article and take a course in real estate 101.  Obama underpaid by $300 K while Rezko overpaid by $300 K on transactions (purchases from the identical seller) closing escrow on the identical day. (Now there is an odd coincidnence, if this is not a donation!)  In real estate fraud this is considered a donation by the overpaying party to the underpaying party.  and by the way obama has also covered this up, since he has not yet fessed up to the realities of the transaction and merely called it boneheaded. Decoratrix 21:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then obviously we're reading different TNR articles... Can you provide me with the link to the TNR article you're talking about? The one I linked to says that Obama paid $300,000 less than the asking price, while the adjacent lot was sold for the full asking price... It also says that the home had been on the market for a number of months prior to Obama's purchase and that it is standard practice to reduce the price of property when it doesn't sell for an extended period.  It also says that the sale posting on the same day was a requirement of the sellers, not of Obama's or Rezko's. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your courteous and constructive response.  You have made an important observation, that all of the vital info is not just in the TNR article cited.  I ll have to look through my stacks of articles and links on this topic and then I ll post it for you.  As I recall the other data is not in a TNR article.  By the way the fact that the seller made the simultaneous closing a condition is further proof that collusion was present, since this method was the seller's only recourse to make sure he got $300,000 more on one lot and was not left holding the bag.  This whole mechanism is a very common mechanism in real estate fraud cases. Decoratrix 22:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment 

message: Why cover up and hide Rezko affair.  Even Obama doesn't cover up and confesses what really happened (what he did was not a crime).  Why cover it up here and hide it in the fine print?  Whatever the intent, the product is bad (cover up).  The discussion has also been removed here to.  I think everyone agreed to the language but not the cover up into fine printUTAFA 01:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing has been covered up - the discussions (for example:,   and maybe others)-  have been archived along with all other discussions that are over a certain number of days old (I forget what it's set at now) because of the volume. Nothing nefarious is going on. As for the article - we have discussed this over and over and some people had a poll, others had long exchanges, and the net result was consensus that the Rezko matter was not notable enough to merit a major mention in this main article. The footnote covers it - there is a reference article and a wikilink to the main Antoin Rezko article where there is more information about this.  There is really no story here - to say "confesses" , "not a crime" and "cover up"  here is misleading and POV and makes me wonder why you are so insistent that this be given such weight in this article. As has been said over and over and over, it is a non-story. Tvoz |talk 02:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, the archive part explains it, but "not a story" is untrue.  Why then did Obama tell the Chicago Tribune that he is sorry he did the deal?  That's news.  That's why it belongs in the article.  It actually helps him because others, like Clinton and Bush, were not so candid and got bit in the *** afterwards.  At least Obama is upfront about the whole thing.  That's another reason why it's worthy of inclusion and not in the fine print.UTAFA 02:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree - the relevant information is here, but putting it into the text is elevating it into a higher level of notability, where it does not belong. And whether or not it "helps him" is not relevant and is not at all a reason to add it to the main text - this article isn't trying to help him or hurt him - it's a biography, with a great deal to cover in a limited amount of space if we want to retain our FA status, so choices of what should be prominent are made, and the choice here was to not include this in the main text.  Same decision was made about lots of other things that could be written about him, and same decisions are made all the time all over the project.  I say again, this is a non-story.  Tvoz |talk 03:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I've seen, Obama's "apology" was not in regards to having done anything wrong by purchasing the home but more of an expression of regret for purchasing the home because it gives Obama the appearance of being related to the crap that Rezko has done. So a better correlation that you could have made would have been for Al Gore to say he was sorry for being Vice President when Clinton had inappropriate contact with Monica.--Bobblehead (rants) 18:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And after about 5 minutes of google searching, here's an article that pretty much explains what I'm talking about. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This Rezko scandal is a big deal.  Obama accepts a $300,000 under the table donation from gangster Rezko and wikipedia wants to relegate that to a footnote.  Notability yes: the New Republic states this scandal is the single greatest thing to derail obama's pursuit of the presidency.  Put this material back in the text where it belongs or this article slips even deeper into an obama POV advert. Decoratrix 19:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that comment an example of assessing and writing about the subject in an NPOV way?  There was no $300,000 donation. Tvoz |talk 19:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you read the article Decoratrix? I'm guessing not, (especially since the direct link doesn't work, but if you go to this google search  its the link called "The plot against Obama"). There was no exchange of money between Rezko and Obama.  If there was a $300,000 "donation" to Obama, it was by the owner of the property, not Rezko.--Bobblehead (rants) 19:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes i read the article.  Please avoid ad hominem remarks.  In fact i hope all will read the article and take a course in real estate 101.  Obama underpaid by $300 K while Rezko overpaid by $300 K on transactions (purchases from the identical seller) closing escrow on the identical day. (Now there is an odd coincidnence, if this is not a donation!)  In real estate fraud this is considered a donation by the overpaying party to the underpaying party.  and by the way obama has also covered this up, since he has not yet fessed up to the realities of the transaction and merely called it boneheaded. Decoratrix 21:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then obviously we're reading different TNR articles... Can you provide me with the link to the TNR article you're talking about? The one I linked to says that Obama paid $300,000 less than the asking price, while the adjacent lot was sold for the full asking price... It also says that the home had been on the market for a number of months prior to Obama's purchase and that it is standard practice to reduce the price of property when it doesn't sell for an extended period.  It also says that the sale posting on the same day was a requirement of the sellers, not of Obama's or Rezko's. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your courteous and constructive response.  You have made an important observation, that all of the vital info is not just in the TNR article cited.  I ll have to look through my stacks of articles and links on this topic and then I ll post it for you.  As I recall the other data is not in a TNR article.  By the way the fact that the seller made the simultaneous closing a condition is further proof that collusion was present, since this method was the seller's only recourse to make sure he got $300,000 more on one lot and was not left holding the bag.  This whole mechanism is a very common mechanism in real estate fraud cases. Decoratrix 22:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why cover up, Obama didn't

message: It doesnt bother me in the slightest if Barack is or isnt categorised as Irish American but looking here it seems that per WP:CONSENSUS that there is a consensus to include it (and more importantly it is backed up with information from some of the most reliable sources).--Vintagekits 22:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that other editors objected without putting themselves into Windyjarhead's table format.  Windyjarhead did a very poor job handling that discussion, and "closed" it (claiming "Wikipedia has spoken") without any regard for actual consensus-building.  HailFire did add this citation, and that's all is warranted far's I'm concerned.  Also:  Even were Windyjarhead's table accurate, Wikipedia is not a democracy.  "Majority rules" is not the policy here, and 5v3v1 does not a clear consensus make. Italiavivi 22:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually 5v3 with one abstaining does make a consensus as its over 60%. Like I said I couldnt give a toss but like I say the information are from the highest possible website news sources.--Vintagekits 22:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, that wasn't the actual count; his table is clearly inaccurate if you read the actual discussion. Italiavivi 22:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So how many were for/against/neutral then?--Vintagekits 22:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 4 supporting and 5 opposing.  I struck User:Michiganw12's vote, given he was an obvious repeat vandal. Italiavivi 22:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Italiavivi is correct on all points. "Counting" was not appropriate here in the first place, and still is not - and the matter was handled in a bizarre manner. Have you read the entire discussion and looked through the edits?  You can see for yourself that MrBlond was not "neutral", Bobblehead was opposed, HailFire by edit was opposed to the category, and most importantly HailFire's May 13 edit that Italiavivi mentioned above has the requisite information and has stood since then, as it satisfies this matter. Tvoz |talk 22:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barry O'Bama 

message: I think I'm ready to re-read the Spoken Word version of the article at this time.  The content of the article has changed substantially since I last read it a few months ago, and a lot has changed in Obama's career as well since that time.  So, I'm shooting for some time in the next few days (perhaps Thursday morning), that should give us time to make sure that the article is nice and clean for the new reading.  Also, any tips or suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks, Rahzel 00:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-Reading Spoken Word Version of this Article 

message: Okay, I'm new here, and I don't really know how to edit and stuff yet. But if anyone wants to fix it. in the "Early life and career" section, it says "he died in a auto accident" and this should read "he died in an auto accident". Thanks! Username 07023 10:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice catch.  I've made the change you requested.  In order to edit here, you just need to select the "Edit" button on the section you wish to edit, make the changes you want to make, put in an edit summary, and then select the "Save page" button.  It is also suggested that before you save your changes that you select the "Show preview" so you can see your changes before you save it.  Downside, the amount of inline citations in this article can make it difficult to locate your changes, but you get used to it after awhile. --Bobblehead (rants) 13:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  a auto 

message: Other editors have objected to polling summaries in the lead, citing a variety of reasons (POV concerns, so-called "recentism," polls which show Obama tied with or ahead of Clinton).  Given the most recent USA Today/Gallup poll showing Obama ahead of Clinton (1% and within the MoE), I think we should discuss how to handle this sentence (if it need stay in the lead at all).  For the sake of the article's stability, I would advocate not mentioning polling in the lead. Italiavivi 00:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Opinion polls are unreliable and constantly changing, so there really isn't a need to include it in the lede.--Bobblehead (rants) 02:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Good - the general statement is needed. Tvoz |talk 13:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Nice. Italiavivi 14:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of polling in the lead. 

message: This picture looks horrendous, where is the original image? (the pic of him standing with the capitol background) WooyiTalk to me? 18:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The one with him standing in front of the capitol building was removed because the photographer claimed ownership and the Obama senate staff confirmed ownership. Therefore Wikipedia could not use the image. If you can find a better free image of Obama, feel free to add it. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: I've added a Pie Chart Showing the Number of Delegates that Clinton, Obama and Edwards Based on Polling Data and DNC's 15% Threshold Rule --Robapalooza 21:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I've added a Pie Chart Showing the Number of Delegates that Clinton, Obama and Edwards Based on Polling Data and DNC's 15% Threshold Rule 

message: Is this AP story  worthy of inclusion, or will his link to Tony Rezko be suppressed further to keep his squeaky clean image? Manic Hispanic 01:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eliminating talk? Are you talking about the talk page archival system? It's pretty standard for wikipedia articles. Instead of coming to this page, presumably looking to start a fight, it might be better to outline in specific details what you think might be appropriate changes to the article. Or, even better, writeup a section and look for compromise in it's inclusion. Just tagging an article as pov and then complaining about it as pov, won't get you very far in your goals. Just something to think about. Turtlescrubber 21:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Turtlescrubber, you blanked this entire section of the talk page until i restored it. This is not archiving. My request is to cease deleting talk sections. As far as working on the article, i have tried that four times only to have my work deleted (not edited}.  It is clear that several editors have a very aggressive agenda of keeping this article sanitized, ie free of any information that casts a bad light on obama. Decoratrix 04:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I blanked a clearly aggressive and inflammatory talk page entry. You can't enter into a discussion when you call everyone on the talk page pov obama hawks in your opening title and then accuse all the editors on the page of suppressing information. I tried to explain how to properly use a talk page (see above) but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. It's counterproductive to reaching any kind of consensus when using unneeded vitriol towards your fellow editors. I was just trying to help out and bring the level of discourse to that of normal people. I obviously failed. Good luck. Turtlescrubber 04:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks Turtlescrubber for toning down your hostility.  However, please read the remarks of each editor.  I did not introduce the term "Obama Hawks"; in fact, i was the one who altered and deleted that title once.  The question is yet unanswered as to why this article cannot become balanced and not devoid of facts harmful to obama's candidacy.  It's obvious one or more WP:SPA pro-obama editors have made this wikipedia article a full time job. Decoratrix 14:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The Rezko controversy, including its conclusion (that nothing improper whatsoever took place), is already covered in the article.  That you wish to give it undue weight is your problem. Italiavivi 21:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Please cease the ad homonem remarks italiavivi. It is your POV as to what constitutes "undue weight". A neutral observer would be very interested in the details of the Rezko transaction, and let the readers decide what it all means. Readers i think would also be interested in the details of obama's being born muslim and attending mosque and the muslim school. these are merely facts not anyone's POV. But if the cartel wishes to censor all this info, then the article is clearly POV. Decoratrix 04:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're confused, Decoratrix.  Undue weight is determined by Wikipedia's NPOV policy.  That aside, you're heading into troll territory with the "cartel" rhetoric. Italiavivi 21:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cease the uncivil remarks italiavivi and stick to the issues, please.  People editing this article obviously have differing opinions as to what constitutes "undue weight".  It appears to me that there is undue weight given to the "squeaky clean" image of obama and not a balancing weight on the scandals and religious origins of obama.  There is certainly no need to suppress Rezko ties, of which there are many.  Wikipedia is not a forum to promote obama's candidacy. our readers are entitled to read the facts--all of them. Decoratrix 01:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is also not used for agenda-pushing. Italiavivi 21:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Decoratrix, your comments here make it clear that you are the one with the strong POV.  Attacking the editors and introducing false information here (e.g., he was not "born Muslim" as you say above) and continuing to insist that such things be included in the article when they have been discussed many, many times and determined to be worthy of the weight we've given them, is indicative of agenda-pushing - yours.  And I, for one, am really tired of hearing about being pro-Obama. As I've said before, I've also been accused of being on John Edwards and Hillary's staffs.  (Actually, I'm Howard Dean. Who are you?)  Oh - and by the way, the expression is "ad hominem" and words like "cartel" and "censor" and "aggressive agenda of keeping this article sanitized" and your comment about editors making this article a "full time job" are the ad hominem attacks, not Italiavivi's pointing out that WP:UNDUE might apply  here. Italiavivi's comments in this section are well within the realm of acceptable. Several of yours are not.  Tvoz |talk 22:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tvoz, try to keep cool please. Do we have a different understanding of the culture of Indonesia?  It is my understanding that to be born of a Muslim father in Indonesia is to be born Muslim. Decoratrix 01:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tvoz's comments were perfectly "cool," and you know this.  You're avoiding her arguments by portraying her as emotional, a very transparent (and pathetic, and arguably sexist) tactic. Italiavivi 02:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (1) I'm not going to dignify that "keep cool" with a response.   (2) "It is my understanding that to be born of a Muslim father in Indonesia is to be born Muslim."   Huh? Tvoz |talk 03:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Decoratrix, perhaps you should actually read this article?  Particularly the part that says that Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii.  Then you should continue to read to the part where Obama didn't go to Indonesia until he was 6. If you are going to argue a point, it is generally helpful to actually know what you're talking about.  Thanks for playing. --Bobblehead (rants) 06:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Rezko 

message: from the "Obama madrassa myth debunked" link into the actual text of footnote 14.  Many people won't go into all the links, and many others need a "see Jane run" simplicity.
Lenngray 16:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maybe insert "It was a Roman Catholic school" 

message: I consider a new paragraph on the UCC to be undue weight in Sen. Obama's article.  It is already covered adequately. Italiavivi 20:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I just tried to remove the new UCC paragraph, but looks like BobbleHead beat me to it. Bjewiki 20:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A new UCC paragraph? 

message: Since I've reverted 's additions twice now, what is everyone's opinion on the additions? 
*First addition
*Second addition
I'm of the opinion that Obama's religion is adequately covered in the article and that MPS's additions are a little excessive and are not overly notable in the general scheme of things.  Particularly in regards to the amount of space that the additions take up in the article. --Bobblehead (rants) 20:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As stated in the talk topic directly above, I agree that the additions were given undue weight in the article.  There was very little notable about the additions that  was putting in. Bjewiki 20:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Third Addition) Sorry I didn't see the talk here. I think it is notable to discuss the fact that Obama's relationship to his faith is more than "personal belief."  He is actively stumping at UCC conference and National events, not as a political speeches but as a member of the UCC. In return, the denomination has featured him with a cover story and exclusive interview on the cover of their national publication... the president of the denomination has called him one of the most exciting politicians out there. Obama is not some milquetoast churchgoing politician; he wears his UCC faith on his sleeve -- this is definitive alliance with the UCC. Given his propensity to express faith in his political speeches, and given recent media attention on Obama's beliefs, we need to add weight here, or at least create a Religious beliefs of Barack Obama side article. MPS 20:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would counter that Bush wears his faith on his sleeve too, and has the propensity to express faith in his speechs.  Checking Bush's page, here's what I found out about his religion: "Bush left his family's Episcopal Church to join his wife's United Methodist Church." Bjewiki 21:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would counter-counter that there are many many side articles in :Category:George W. Bush and among them several articles that discuss George W. Bush's religious beliefs to include White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, Compassionate conservatism, and George W. Bush substance abuse controversy. Did the Epsicopalians or United Methodists ever formally invite Bush to speak at their gatherings? Look at how many articles there are in :Category:Barack Obama. None. Besides, the Mitt Romney article has a section on his religious beliefs. MPS 21:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Romney's situation is entirely different.  The Latter-Day Saint movement is notably controversial, especially in the United States.  Many of Romney's Republican opponents have made comments about Romney's Mormonism, a situation which is in no way paralleled by Sen. Obama's church.  You seem to have a strong POV concerning the United Church of Christ, and I would ask that you take WP:CONSENSUS into more consideration when editing articles related to your pet project. Italiavivi 21:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the contrary, Obama's religious beliefs have been quite the subject of his opponents. Hillary has accused him of madrassa education The Washington Pst Says Obama's religion is "United church of Christ" and Sean Hannity calls Obama's church cult-like and 'scary doctrine'. What more can I say here? I know a lot about the UCC... you know nothing about my POV. MPS 21:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that you post about your UCC POV on your User page, and that you just linked the false (and thoroughly debunked) Insight Magazine/Fox News "madrassa" smear.  I don't need much more to go on having seen you link that, actually. Italiavivi 22:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You know nothing about my POV. Statements on my personal page are intended to communicate and amplify wikipedia wikipedia:WikiLove and wikipedia:NPOV. I agree that "allegations that Sen. Barack Obama was educated in a radical Muslim school known as a 'madrassa' are not accurate," and I think we can find sources that say this.  I don't know what you need, but if the madrassa controversy was thoroughly debunked, that would indicate that the issue was "notably controversial, especially in the United States."  MPS 17:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edit history makes your POV obvious.  That you are trying to equate a controversial religion (Mormonism) with an orchestrated and wholly false smear campaign only reinforces your obvious POV intent.  You still falsely attributed the "madrassa" smear to Hillary Clinton, by the way. Italiavivi 23:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: This is a biography of the man, not a coatrack about the UCC. His religious beliefs are an important topic, but they are already covered adequately - the article doesn't need a giant section about his recent church activities. --BigDT 22:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agreewith you that this is an important topic... I disagree with you that it is covered adequately. What about a Religious beliefs of Barack Obama article. MPS 17:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Bobblehead and Italiavivi on this. Tvoz |talk 02:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hot off the presses at UC News ... "Joshua DuBois, the Obama campaign's director of religious affairs, said the senator's Synod speech on Saturday will be his first major address on faith and politics as a presidential candidate. " ... please tell me again why Obama's Speech to GS26 is not notable? MPS 18:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My first guess is because the only sources pimping his speech at this time are faith based organizations that have a vested interest in advertising his speech.  Nothing against faith based sources, but Wikipedia is not in the business of advertising Obama's campaign stops.  If his speech turns out to be as important as the campaign's director for religious affairs says it is, then a small entry can be made in the campaign article regarding the content of his speech and responses to the content. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, but other publications are "pimping" this speech such as the International Heral Tribune, LA Times, and non-UCC Christian site referred to by the  NYT blog. This non-UCC reference reports on the Iowa Speech.  What's your standard? I have  already tried to add content that includes non-UCC affiliated American Spectator comments on this long-advertised speech but I imagine you will want to wait until after the speech to gather the most lasting comments and criticism. I still don't see why we shouldn't make a side article on his religious beliefs. MPS 20:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *points you to the campaign article* If you feel his speaking at the UCC conference is notable at this point, the campaign article may be appropriate,  but not the main article and not in the manner in which you've been trying to add it. From what I've found and been pointed to by you, at this point it might (emphasis on might) warrant a sentence or two along the lines of "In an attempt to reach out to voters of faith, Obama addressed the Iowa conference and General Synod for his religious denomination, United Church of Christ." As for the religious beliefs article.. If you can find enough information from reliable sources on his religious beliefs that differ from his church and isn't already covered in that article or the Political views of Barack Obama, then go crazy. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Bobblehead, thanks for your considered response! I did not realize there was a campaign article. Perhaps I will start :Category: Barack Obama so these sorts of articles are easier to find. The dilemma I have is that the speech is ostensibly not a campaign stop  ergo it would be wrong to put this event on the campaign page despite the attention it is being given within the press.  I am now thinking that the best place to put religious discussion is in the Political views of Barack Obama article under some sort of "Political beliefs specifically linked to faith" section or some such header. The other complicating factor in this discussion is that the UCC doesn't have a centralized doctrine-setting Synod outside of each local church, so the fact that this article says he's affiliated with the UCC says almost nothing about the content of his religious beliefs or related political actions. Peace, MPS 21:52, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmm.. Looks like the Barack Obama category was deleted. So apparently creating a Barack Obama category has already been tried and shot down.;)--Bobblehead (rants) 00:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the link... I read the discussion on the delete page. It seems the main reason for deletion was there not being a lot of Barack Obama articles in existence. While the category was deleted, some participants in that discussion specifically voted "without prejudice" to account for the fact that if there were more articles in the future then a category might be warranted. I decided just now to try to list all the Obama-related articles in the seealso section, but I got reverted. I understand where you are coming from as far as "the articles are already linked up above" since there are sections and links in the rest of the article, but it seems to me that most wikipedia biographies have seealso sections, and in my frustration I counted nearly 450 internal wikilinks in the article. It seems to me that there ought to be a place in the article for someone to quickly find out what other Barack Obama articles exist. Given that there is no Barack Obama category, the seealso section would be the natural place. What do you (plural) think? MPS 17:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm.. Perhaps a navigation box would be acceptable. I'll whip something up. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  UCC additions by MPS 

message: Here's a whack at the navigation box for Barack Obama related articles. Feel free to add/remove articles from the template as you see fit. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this navigator based on another template located elsewhere?  I'd like to compare it with other candidates' navigators. Italiavivi 20:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not based on anyone person's navigator.  I was editing on Jericho related articles this morning when MPS added the see also, so I just did a gut and stuff on .--Bobblehead (rants) 21:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm. I kind of like , which is based on .  It's a lot sleeker than what I flung together. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Nice. Italiavivi 22:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Went ahead and added the nav box to the articles for Michelle Obama, his books, political views, and 2008 campaign article. --Bobblehead (rants) 23:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ooh = I missed this. Good job. Tvoz |talk 23:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I suggest we not include articles that aren't specifically about Obama (the bottom 2 sections).--Pharos 02:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Pharos... while it's nice to have ALL that info we might want to split it in two boxes... senate committees and party of a senator could be included in a separate 'Senator Navbox' and the current People/Books/Articles related to a politician could be thoe other one. My IMHO, of course. MPS 14:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barack Obama Navigation box