Talk:Determinism/Archive 1

message: I don't think block time solves the problem, as not only is quantum mechanics indeterministic, but the state at the present cannot even be determined
JeffBobFrank 05:16, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC )
Actually, a lot of people make this point about quantum mechanics being indeterministic, but I think that it doesn't make sense in a broad theoretical sense. I understand that people point to the seemingly random nature of quantum mechanics as standing in opposition to determinism, but randomness is still restricted by causality. In order for quantum mechanics to be undetermined, a particles would have to move for no reason whatsoever, as opposed to a shift occurring for no reason that we can *measure*. Something has to be responsible for something else occurring, otherwise all things would lead to all possible consequences. That may jive with the "many universes" hypothesis, but as far as we know we only live in one. Also, even if that were the case, people's actions would still be determined on a macro level. For example, if quantum mechanics operates outside of the causal chain of time and causes me to have a desire, thought, etc., it is still something entirely unrelated to me that is causing me to have that desire or thought. I would be as responsible for acts resulting from that desire as I would be for the consequences of a phantom hand shoving me down the stairs. My two cents.
Patrick Grey Anderson 03:16, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "block time" 

message: [P0M:] Objection One: The first line says, "Determinism is the philosophical doctrine which claims that every event is entirely caused by an immediately preceding event." Does this sentence really mean what the writer intended?  For one thing, "immediately preceding event" has been given no operational definition, hence it is vague to the point of being meaningless. Suppose that someone fires an ICBM at a city half way around the world. Half an hour later it gets there and destroys the place. Is "pushing the button" the cause of the explosion? Just how long a time interval is too long to be counted as "immediately preceding"?  And if a 0 time interval is involved, how can cause and effect be determined. 
[P0M:] Objection Two: If two billiard balls simultaneously impact a third billiard ball from different directions, the third ball will be caused to move in a third direction. So the "cause" would not be "an immediately preceding event" but two such events.
[P0M:] Objection Three: Without any citations to the works of recognized figures in the history of philosophy, it is difficult to even begin to address the question of how cogent this article's explanation may be. P0M 01:07, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  one cause at a time? 

message: I have to agree with POM about citations. The article has some citations, mostly to canonical philosophers. But a number of the article's points involve newer arguments, or describe debates that fall partially outside the philosophical canon as it now stands -- the Buddhism paragraph comes to mind. I'm vaguely familiar with the idea that Quantum Mechanics jams a monkey wrench in the machinery of determinism, but I've never seen it fully articulated before. I'd love to change the article myself, but I don't have the necessary knowledge. I encourage anyone who does to make a few edits. Jonathan Enderle 15:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: A valid point, yet one that I as well am unable to address. I came to this page not ever having heard of the concept. Dustin Asby 08:09, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: Earlier comments in these discussions have talked about the lack of organization in this article.  I think that putting some subheadings in would help clear things up, and make it easier to distinguish the different arguments for/against determinism within this article.  What I propose to do is leave the actual contents of the article the same for now, and to put a subheading above each paragraph (approximately each para. anyway).
The subheadings would be
(none) intro paragraph and quote
#Free Will/Compatibilism
#History of Determinism in the West
#Eastern Notions of Determinism
#Some Criticisms of Determinism (Morality/Jurisprudence, Quantum Mechanics)
#Some Answers (Normative Claims, Determinism in Quantum Mechanics)
#Scientific Determinism
#First Cause
(Perhaps sections 4 and 5 could be arranged differently?)
Any disagreements with doing this at all, or with how to start doing it?
WhiteC 08:25, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody else started already (many thanks)... I just reorganized sections to be more logical--putting the response to each argument against determinism right after the argument.
WhiteC 02:27, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subheadings