Talk:Ustaše/Archive 1

message: Every time info on the alleged Ustase genocide of Jews and others during World War II, someone deletes it.Mbstone
STOP EDITING THIS PAGE PLZ I WILL GET TO THE GENOCIDE
:Please fix your Caps-Lock key. That article isn't yours, so everyone can edit it. And don't edit by deleting, edit by writing NPOV text. If you don't want to do that, go away. andy 12:18, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations, "ZA_DOM", your mindlessness has apparently succeeded in allowing the extreme Serb viewpoint to take precedence. Great work :P --Shallot 15:57, 10 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: About User:ZA_DOM

message: Good change, Nikola. I really like the word "Symbols" much better than "Insignia", the old one sounded so grand and had a too much positive connotation. --denny vrandecic 16:29, Sep 17, 2003 (UTC)
: Thanks :) Nikola 07:57, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Symbols

message: Now, about my latest changes:
the so-called - in English 'the' doesn't means 'the only one', like that no other state of Croatia then ISC could be independent, rather that that was the only that was named so. I think that so-called is already implied in 'the'.
: I think it needs to be explicitely "so-called" because that particular state of theirs was hardly independent. It would be extra if there was a page where the link goes, but there is none so we have to explain it here. --Shallot 12:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: It's from the Simon Wiesenthal Center description contains that, I think it's fair to assume that it will be understood properly. --Shallot 12:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

text: I agree, it was a thinko on my part: I wrote "Jasenovac and elsewhere" but only calculated the number from Jasenovac. (It's an honest oversight, I had no intention to downplay the number.) --Shallot 12:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

text: I still think that the initial paragraph is too assumptive. I see the point of the other change; I initially grouped the two disputed sentences together so that there is a single dispute note, but two are fine, too. --Shallot 12:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

text: It seems to me that he simply "watched their back", responded to assertions with assertions (if we're referring to the same statements, that is). It's pretty clear that they had no proof of him doing anything wrong when all that the political trial could accomplish was house arrest. And Đilas later confirmed the same. --Shallot 12:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes by Nikola

message: I see Igor is continuing to spill bile in the page. Oh well. --Shallot 12:24, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Shallot's wail, oh well :)

message: Ova će stranica biti potpuno promijenjena u bliskoj budućnosti-recimo, 2 tjedna. Na znanje i ravnanje.
Mir Harven (mharven@softhome.net)
Nece. Nikola 06:56, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Mir Harven's warning

message: I vaguely recall that someone had removed (or otherwise did something to) that mention of Ivan Merz and his "Croatian Eagles" saying they weren't equivalent to Hitler Jugend. I googled now and found that this association was founded by the said Merz in 1922, and he died in 1928. Later this organization became(?) either "Ustashe Youth" ("ustaška mladež"?) or "Crusaders" ("križari"?), not all of the sources agree. Another person, Ivo Protulipac, is mentioned in relation to the Ustaše and "Crusaders". Overall I wasn't able to see anything even resembling something wrong done by Ivan Merz and nothing concrete that would link his organization to Hitler Youth. The organization during the war was described to have a similar religious program to the Ustaše but without any details. In short, it seems that this guy Merz's name is being dragged through the mud for no apparent reason. --Shallot 18:31, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the question is what were Eagles' goals as well, but until something substantial is found it could be watered down, for examle, to "proclaimed beatification of Catholic priest Ivan Merz. This was protested because he was the founder of the Croatian Eagles, an organization which later (though after his death) became Usta?e version of Hitlerjugend." Nikola 07:01, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I can't find a single reference to exactly what this Association had in its statute or did that was wrong, esp. the one under Merz. I think one site said that it was "radically Croatian", with a negative connotation. That can mean just about anything. I will remind that integration of church and nation isn't an offense per se, in fact the same thing happens with the Serb Orthodox Church. One site that described Merz's beatification in a positive light said that he was a theologian and that he participated in some "Church renewal movement". That can also mean just about anything. --Shallot 12:04, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's what I said. We don't (ATM) know what were White Eagles doing, but we know that Merz's beatification was protested (rightly or not) because he founded them. Nikola 06:04, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text:  I wanted to answer to other things but have no time; let's settle one thing at a time. Nikola 08:10, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Merz's Eagles

message: : The neo-Ustaše, however, didn't and don't have grass roots support among the Croatian people. The right-most parties, like the Croatian Party of Rights, are most commonly associated with Ustašism and they have the support of a few percent of the population. (This part is particularly disputed.)
What exactly is disputed about this? What other way is there to interpret the lack of HSP's election success other than lack of support for the extremist ideas that separate them from other right-wing parties in .hr? --Shallot 18:44, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "neo-Ustaše, however, didn't and don't have grass roots support among the Croatian people." The fact that they are not suitable for the parliament doesn't mean that they are not supported. Nikola 07:04, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  You do understand what the term "grass roots" means, right? The elections are an indicator of how many people at the local level support a party. When the Ustase-related parties can't manage to win a plurality, let alone a majority, in the vast majority of election units in Croatia, how can this indicate that they have any noticable amount of support at the local level, or otherwise? Especially if you consider that rightist voting body generally votes more in .hr. --Shallot 11:11, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern support

message: : Cooperation between the HSS and the Ustaše is claimed to have lasted well into the war.
This is also unsubstantiated. I remember I had added "is claimed to have" into that before, and nobody ever picked up on it... --Shallot 20:29, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: HSS participation

message: The photo seems to come from here... 
But much of this material "documenting" the "butchery" of Pavelic, Artukovic, et al should be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of it is Titoist propaganda (Tito=the guy who was essentially responsible for the murder of 250,000+ Croats at Bleiburg). A number of the photos in that site appear to be retouched, particularly the one of two Ustashi (members of the youth branch, it appears) purportedly preparing to slash a Serbs throat and collect the blood in a bowl. The dagger in the hand of the boy at left and the bowl held by the one on the right do NOT appear genuine- and the lad at center who's about to "have his throat slashed" doesn't appear too out of sorts over the fact.
The picture of the "Ustashi" decapitating someone with an axe- that's no Ustashi; he is clearly wearing the uniform of the Waffen-SS (in this case, one of the Karstwehr units).
Lots of material on Ustashi horrors to be found on the web, and I don't trust one-tenth of one-percent of it. Source is often the Serbian government, and look at how decently THEY treated people under their control from 1991 on!
Another interesting thing about the photo with this description:
"Ustashi cutting the throat of one of their Serbian Orthodox victims. Notice now a Ustashi holding a vessel to collect the first spurt of blood and thus prevent their uniforms from being blood stained. The brutal crime - one of many - took place near Cajnice in 1943."
The "Serbian Orthodox victim" pictured appears to wear the same uniform as those "cutting [his] throat"!!! Just appears that he isn't wearing his cap. 
: Each image that is wrong should be removed from the article, and each image without a license should be removed from Wikipedia. The upstream site at least properly references the original work they're from (last published in 1990 AFAICT, so well within copyright protection), but the images uploaded to Wikipedia (esp. the mass upload by User:Wertq1) don't even do that, which even strains the fair use provisions... --Shallot 11:54, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we established that ages ago... see above --Shallot 11:54, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The photo with the head

message: "Ustasa terrorists killed 500,000 Serbs", 
Those are old numbers based on doctored Yugoslav statistics, new and impartial research paints a different picture…
C. Michael McAdams ( a specialist in Croatian studies and is Director of the University of San Francisco's Regional Center) in his recent book Croatia: Myth and Reality says following:
"The exact number of war victims in Yugoslavia during World War II may never be known due to fifty years of intentional disinformation by the Yugoslavian and Serbian governments, Serbian exile groups, and others. However, it is likely that approximately one million people of all nationalities died of war-related causes in all of Yugoslavia during World War II and that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War."
I advise you to look up his book so that some of this misconnceptions can become a bit more clear.
Check out following link for more information 
--GeneralPatton 04:59, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not impressed by this "specialist's findings". He was a property manager and never held any academic post at that university. Simply read his biography to see how much credibility this man could earn at all! He is a mere primitive propagandist - ready to distort the truth the way it suits him and those who hired him as an "independent expert".--Oesterling 22:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

text: It is nevertheless indicative that the Simon Wiesenthal Center has copied this number, they're an important institution in the field. There's plenty of other numbers on the page so anyone who can read will notice that some numbers are off, on their own accord. --Shallot 11:23, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: Although I can't escape the impression that it looks like random number tossing. 500K over there, 250K over there, 250K over there, a nice little million... Has anyone contacted SWC regarding that web site of theirs? --Joy [shallot] 11:36, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers

message: The whole paragraf is directly copied from .
: We should probably note what the original page says, that it's a text by Ante Pavelić written in 1929. Given that we already summarized parts of it in our text, perhaps we should simply summarize the rest and point the external document, it seems too long. --Shallot 11:43, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't have to imply that the exact content that is copied is incorrect. The page also says it's from a private collection so someone should probably verify that it was indeed a publically distributed pamphlet and not something covered by copyright (a triviality, but still). --Shallot 11:43, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Principles of the Ustase Movement

message: [] 
In a summary of his edit [User:Nikola Smolenski] wrote this "(External links - (hit save accidentaly) That link wasgrossly inaccurate. But if someone persists in having it, I have some grossly inaccurate links as well)" 
*He removed the link without specifying what he feels was inaccurate about the Herceg-Bosna link. It seems to me he is trying to suppress the Croat as well as unbiased view on things.
*This is really worrying since he is threatening to post a link to information he knows to be "grossly inaccurate".
--GeneralPatton 22:16, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Threats by Nikola Smolenski

message: What was "Serb nationalist" about what you just reverted, GeneralPatton? Ambivalenthysteria 00:45, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: They do that all the time, that is, decide that some semi-random change was "unacceptable" and then keep reverting to some other semi-random version until the sun don't shine. --Shallot 08:55, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are again comparing me and him. Nikola 02:03, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Because you are all reverting and not bothering about collateral damage! I mean that both in a technical and a philosophical sense. Sure, GeneralPatton makes stupid exclamations and posts silly diatribes at the same time, but two wrongs don't make a right. --Shallot 10:40, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion

message: : The [papal] nuncio was even briefed on the efforts of conversions,
This needs context to establish that this "even" is necessary. Did the nuncio just get/listen to the report? Did it happen throughout the war? What did the said nuncio have to say about it? --Joy [shallot] 22:02, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: and the pogroms were never condemned by the Catholic church.
This needs corroboration, or elaboration of what is actually meant. AFAIR, it's plain wrong as is. --Joy [shallot] 22:02, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  papal nuncio; lack of condemnation 

message: : Stepinac is accused of supporting the Ustaše, organising Ustaše military clergy and exonerating it of complicity in war crimes and atrocities.
These accusations need to be corroborated, but at Aloysius Stepinac first and then summarized here. --Joy [shallot] 22:03, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stepinac 

message: For more details about the recent anonymous edits, please see User talk:85.224.177.65.
I'm reluctant to wield the axe since they aren't entirely off base, although the main point (that Croats aren't Slavs) is IMO entirely incorrect. That they are changing this paragraph only proves that the POV check warning is still well-deserved, the phrasing in it is slightly too colorful to be neutral... --Joy [shallot] 13:51, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  the racial origin of the Croats, etc 

message: The vojska.net stats includes numbers from 1931 and 1948 censa, listing ~633000 and 543795 Serbs in Croatia, respectively. In other words, there were over 89,000 Serbs fewer after WWII. Can we get an equivalent comparison for the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina? That way the demographic loss statistic would be put in a useful context. --Joy [shallot] 01:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  demographic data 

message: Regarding the new link to http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/stepinac1.htm - I didn't read it completely, but some things are apparent from a partial reading: it's very propagandist, uses weaselly language, and doesn't really care about the occasional overly malicious insinuation.
It rants a lot about clerical cooperation in 1941 and to lesser extent in other years, without recognizing the possibility that the Church did not have diabolical tendencies when they supported the new government. There are a number of quotes from newspapers like Hrvatski Narod which is explicitly stated to be an Ustasha newspaper, so it can't really be indicative of an official Church support for the Ustashe. There are quotes where support is expressed for the idea of independent Croatia and the Ustashe as (obviously) the main protagonist, but without saying anything about their Nazi ideology. There are some quotes from priests that actually do reek of Nazism, but those are actually few, and drowned among the rest which reek of propaganda, so the effect is lost.
It can also be wrong, which can be attributed to the fact it's outdated or that it's just plain wrong. Quote: Of the 80,000 Jews in Yugoslavia, 60,000 were killed, the great majority in Croatia. Actually, the Jewish sources state around 32,000 Jewish deaths from NDH, and many weren't killed in (the Independent State of, the oft-forgotten prefix) Croatia but were instead transported to Nazi Germany and killed there. So that can't be a great majority, just a plurality. Granted, not a particularly important error, but it hints at the overall bias.
So, anyway. Just another in a long line... --Joy [shallot] 16:49, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This articles Bibliography is mostly vehemently Anti-Catholic writers who are not very respectable historians. Until I edited it used terms like "Uniatism" that could not have been Catholic policy because the word was invented in anti-Catholic Eastern Orthodox circles. I was very tempted to link to an earlier version of this article on the Anti-Catholicism page.--T. Anthony 13:44, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "How the Catholic Church united with local Nazis to run Croatia during World War II" 

message: Would please add http://www.hrvatskiustaskipokret.com to the links? HolyRomanEmperor 17:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hmm 

message: Upon reading the Ustashe page i was in shock how Wikipedia has let this sort of editing go on.
This is clear vandalism and work of fiction by someone.
My guess is the editor is Serbian and has some issue against Croatians and is clearly using this page as a vehicle to push propaganda.
The article is very negative and anti croat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First it should be said
#Ustashe were a minority of Croats who were mainly from Bosnia and Hercegovina region.
#Majority of Croats Partizans including Tito fought against them and the Nazis.
#Ustashe would have numbered only 10,000 max.
#Ustashe hated and sold Dalmatian Croats to Italy.
#Ustashe didnt kill many Serbs but did assist the Nazis of the killing of Jews.
#The number of Serbs killed can and has never been proven (as its fiction), so why even mention this Serb propaganda. Serbs have always inflated the numbers as use in anti croat propaganda. With little or no fact to back these numbers up why are they even mentioned in the article.
#Ustashe and Ante Pavelic were puppets on a long string which included most of Europe including Serbs.
I have nothing against Serbian people and most would agree the Ustashe page is abit one sided and very anti cro
Evergreen Montenegro1 03:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  USTASHE FICTION 

message: User:Purger said Sensless claim about number of Serbs in Croatia removed
Can you elaborate, please? --Joy [shallot] 21:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  93K minus overall 

message: http://www.vex.net/~nizkor/hweb/people/e/eichmann-f/transcripts/Sessions/Session-046-05.html  <--- It doesn't work. --85.204.31.123 07:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken link 

message: TO ALL WIKIPEDIANS:
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
216.194.2.22 10:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RE: pro-Ustase/pro-Catholic POV on this page

message: TO ALL CROATS: 
Please admit the fact that you were same and maybe worse than Nazis during the Second World War. If you don't believe the number of 700 000 victims of Jasenovac Concentration camps,mostly Serbs, than check the number by names of the victims since they are avilable to everybody. Your research can even go farther,check their origin. That's history,but sometimes nobody can't hide from it. And it was not so long ago so that the prooves can get lost so easily.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.73.166 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 22 May 2006
:Please be careful when you post message to all Croats because majority of us believe there was genocide in Jasenovac (that makes me puke) and big part of Croats was involved in Anti-fasist movement during the WW2 with partisans. Thank you. Jakiša Tomić 19:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  comments from 82.114.73.166 

message: To say 700,000 Serbs were killed in Jesenovac is Serbain POV and a grose mistake. The so called tally ranges from 100 to 20,000 to 700,000 to millions...depending on which Serb politician is talking. Serbs use Jesenaovac as a politicial and motivational tool to insight hatred of Croats among Serb people. Like I said why does the figure range from 100 to 1 million, this clearly shows some Serbs are not telling the truth and inflate the figures.
Sure Serbs were killed by Ustashe forces but many of the ones killed by Ustashe were actually Croatian who didnt want to join them. Its a little known fact and well overlooked, that Ustashe did kill many Croatians especailly in the region of Dalmatia.-----------
To be fair in Jesanovac around 10,000 Serbs were "maybe" killed. Even if not proven this figure would sound correct according to records of misssing persons. Some of the missing could have escaped and others might have died of hunger. -----------------
One also has to remember the Serb Chetnicks were not innocent...they killed a huge number of Croats and some say the same amount if not more. Yet nobody is blowing that trumpet to the Serbs.----------
In the recent Balkan war Serbs killed a great deal of Bosnians and Croats well over 20,000.
This can be be proven due to modern technology.----------
Blieburg in WW2 was also a place were kids, women and some Ustashe were killed by Partizans ...figures range in approx 20,000.------------------
In the end eye for an eye ...looks to me all sides have done something to the other.
I think the Serbs need to look at both sides before judging anyone. 
----------
I think this needs to be left in the past...look to the future people...war no matter where is ugly and innocent people die....
If one can say we are all Slavs and we can understand one another in language...why are we even fighting...
 
Evergreen Montenegro 23:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Serbs