Talk:List of converts to Christianity/Archive 2

message: Given the endless nature of this argument, I decided to get a little proactive about the sources. I looked up a few of the Bob Dylan biographies, and sought them out at the local bookstore. This particular bookstore only had two typical biographies, so I decided to work from them. Here are two very clear secondary sources which mention Bob's baptism/conversion. I hope this resolves the issue of sources so that I can waste my time on a video game or with my oft-ignored art projects.
This is copied verbatim (excuse any typos) from the books, and as it's for encyclopedia use, I hope the publisher doesn't mind me printing this long excerpt here. 
This first section is from Howard Sounes' book, 'Down the Highway: The Life of Bob Dylan', pages 324-326:
::There were signs during the latter stages of the 1978 tour that Bob had become caught up in this enthusiasm for Jesus Christ. Bob met his old college friend Dave Whitaker after a concert in Oakland, California, in mid-November, and spoke to Dave's eleven-year-old son, Ubi. "Would you send me a guitar?" asked the kid. The next day a truck pulled up with a gift from Dylan- a brand-new Fender Stratocaster decorated with quotations from the Book of Paul. A few days later Bob played a show in San Diego. He picked up a cross that a fan had thrown on stage and started wearing it. Shortly after this incident Bob felt what he later described as "this vision and feeling," which he believed to be the presence of Jesus Christ in the room. Billy Cross was sitting next to Bob on the bus when he looked over and noticed that Bob seemed to be writing a spiritual song- "Slow Train Coming"- the lyrics of which were only partly formed at this time but which described a resurgence of faith of God. The band played the song at a sound check in Nashville on December 2.
::The catalyst to Bob's extraordinary full-blown conversion to Christianity seems to have been his relationship with sometime girlfriend Mary Alice Artes, although his relationship with Carolyn Dennis also focused his mind on the subject. Artes was linked with the Vineyard Fellowship, a small but growing evangelical church in the San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles. The Fellowship was founded in 1974 by Kenn GUlliksen, a singing pastor with a Lutheran background. "I did an album of my own and had a number-one song in the Christian world," he says. "It sounded like The Carpenters, it was so boring." Popular music was used to enliven services at the Fellowship, with people encouraged to get up and play songs. Several well-known musicians were associated with the Vineyard Fellowship, including a member of The Eagles. Church meetings were informal and Pastor Kenn often dressed in shorts. Because the Fellowship did not have a dedicated church building, they would lease buildings or meet on the beach. Ideologically, the Vineyard Fellowship was Bible-based, taking a fairly strong line on drugs, excessive drinking, and adultery.
::Pastor Kenn says Mary Alice Artes approached him one Sunday in January 1979 after a service in a rented church building in Reseda and said she wanted somebody to speak with her boyfriend at home. Two of Pastor Kenn's colleagues, Paul Edmond and Larry Myers, duly went with Artes to an apartment in the West Los Angeles suburb of Brentwood. It was here that they met Bob. According to Pastor Kenn, who received a report back, Bob told them his life was empty. The pastors replied that God was the "only ultimate success" and Bob indicated that he wanted what Pastor Kenn calls a "lifestyle relationship" with God. "He was apparently ready to ask for God's forgiveness for sin," says Pastor Kenn. Larry Myers spoke to Bob about Jesus Christ, and talked about the Bible, from Genesis through to the Revelation of St. John the Divine. "Sometime in the next few days, privately and on his own, Bob accepted Christ and believed that Jesus Christ is indeed the Messiah," says Myers.
::Bob later said that Mary Alice Artes was instrumental in his conversion. But she resists suggestions that any one person was responsible. "I cannot lead anyone to the Lord... I could only say that God did what he had to do," she says. "I think that too many people wanna be glorifying themselves in a situation that really should not have any glory at all."
::Bob and Mary Alice enrolled in the Vineyard Fellowship's School of Discipleship, attending Bible class most weekday mornings for more than three months at the beginning of 1979. At first Bob thought there was no way that he could devote so much time to the project; he felt he had to get back on the road. Soon, though, he found himself awake at 7 A.M., compelled to get up and drive to the real estate office in Reseda where Bible classes were held. "I couldn't believe I was there," he said.
::Assistant Pastor Bill Dwyer, who taught a class on the Sermon on the Mount, recalls Bob as being withdrawn in Bible class and also when he made rare appearances at church. "He probably needs to be," says Pastor Bill. "The few times he would [come] into church people would glom onto him: Oh, it's Bob Dylan!" Indeed, Pastor Bill, who had all Bob's albums, had to restrain himself from doing the same.
::It was during this late winter/spring period of 1979 that Mary Alice Ares was baptized in a swimming pool at Pastor Bill's house.
::"This was total immersion. Because baptism is a symbol of burial, burying guilt, and then pulling the new man out of the water," says Pastor Kenn. Bob attended the baptism and, not long afterward, Bob was himself baptized, probably in the ocean, which was where the fellowship normally conducted baptisms. By being immersed in water, Bob became, in common parlance, a born-again Christian, though he would later shrink from the term, claiming he had never used it. Yet he was clearly quoted in a 1980 interview with trusted Los Angeles Times journalist Robert Hilburn saying: "I truly has a born-again experience, if you want to call it that. It's an overused term, but it's something that people can relate to."
::An element of religiosity had always existed in Bob's work, and it was particularly strong on the album John Wesley Harding. Religion had in fact been with him since childhood when his father instilled a strict moral code in his eldest son and sent him to study with a rabbi for his bar mitzvah. As a songwriter, Bob had always felt himself to be a channel for inspiration. At the start of his career, he told Sing Out! that words just came to him: "The songs are there. They exist all by themselves just waiting for someone to write them down." In this sense, he had a powerful everyday connection with a mysterious source of information and, over the years, he came to think that the songs arose from God. It was a small step, apparently, from this to flinging himself headfirst into orthodox religion. Yet Bob of course was born and raised in the Jewish faith, and it is fundamentally wrong to most Jews to think of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. "For a person to be a 'completed Jew' is very offensive to them," admits Pastor Kenn. "They think that is an oxymoron, where as I see it, Christians see it, and Jewish Christians see it at the [truth]." Indeed, Bob's embracing of Christianity caused consternation, and some offense, among his Jewish friends and family. "I think it was for publicity, that's what I think. Because he is Jewish-minded, plenty Jewish-minded. He was brought up that way. He was bar mitzvahed," says Bob's aunt, Ethel Crystal.
::Bob's conversion to Christianity also caused considerable upset to his own children, who had been raised in the Jewish faith. Suddenly, packs of journalists were following their father to the Vineyard Fellowship in the hope of getting pictures of him going to a Christian church, and then staking out his home. The children saw this commotion when they visited their father. It was embarrassing and one of the few times when his celebrity was a problem in their lives.
The second except from Sounes' book is from page 356:
::In the fall of 1983, Bob's seventeen-year-old son Jesse had a belated bar mitzvah in Jerusalem- Jakob and Samuel had already been bar mitzvahed in California- and Bob was photographed wearing a yarmulke at the Wailing Wall, adding to speculation that he had returned to Judaism. "As far as we're concerned, he was a confused Jew," Rabbi Kasriel Kastel told Christianity Today. "We feel he's coming back." In fact, Jesse was on vacation in Israel with his grandmother, Beatty, when they discovered a bar mitzvah could be conducted quickly and easily at the Wailing Wall and Bob simply flew in to play his part. He still believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and kept a broadly Christian outlook, although he had not maintained regular contact with the Vineyard Fellowship since the early flush of his conversion.
The second book is called 'The Rough Guide to Bob Dylan' by Nigel Williamson (2nd edition).
This excerpt is broken into 3 sections, as one is from the main body of text, and the other two are from sidebars. All is taken from pages 112-113:
::'Jewish roots' sidebar
::Prior to his Christian conversion, Dylan had shown some interest in getting back in touch with his Jewish roots. After his father's funeral in June 1968, he confessed to Harold Leventhal, Woody Guthrie's former manager, that he had never really known the man who was Abe Zimmerman. Leventhal's response was to urge Dylan to get back in touch with his Jewish faith. Over the next few years he read widely around the subject and held talks with Rabbi Meir Kahane, a founder of the Jewish Defense League.
::He visited the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem on his birthday in May 1971. Time magazine reported that he was considering changing his name back to Zimmerman. Dylan dismissed such reports as "pure journalese". But he did consider the possibility of taking his family to live on a kibbutz. Bruce Dorfman, the painter who was his neighbor in Woodstock, reported that when he returned from Israel he was seriously considering become a Hasid. Instead, by the end of the decade he had become a born-again Christian.
::His conversion caused offence to members of his family and is Jewish friends. "I think it was for publicity, that's what I think," said his aunt Ethel Crystal. "He is Jewish-minded, plenty Jewish-minded, he was brought up that way. He was bar mitzvahed." And, despite his Christian conversion, his children all had bar mitzvahs and he attended the ceremonies on each occasion. When he encountered Leventhal at a party in Hollywood in 1980, his old friend confronted him and demanded, "What have you got that cross dangling around you for?"
::In 1982, there were strong rumours that he was again exploring his Jewish heritage, sparked by a picture of him wearing a yarmulke at the bar mitzvah of his son Jesse in Jerusalem. The following year there were further stories that he had been spending time with an ultra-orthodox sect called the Lubavitchers and even that he had recorded an album of Hasidic songs. Dylan kept silent, which only encouraged the rumours.
::By 1986, Allen Ginsberg was claiming that Dylan had reverted back to "his natural Judaism". Dylan appeared with his son-in-law Peter Himmelman (husband of his step-daughter Maria) at the annual Jewish Chabad telethon in Los Angeles in November 1989 wearing a yarmulke and singing "Hava Nagila". But ultimately, the importance of his Jewish roots appears to have been cultural rather than religious.
::'The Vineyard Fellowship' sidebar
::The Vineyard Fellowship, to which Dylan's girlfriend Mary Alice Artes introduced him in late 1978, was a small evangelical church that peddled a New Age, born-again version of Christianity. It had been found in Los Angeles in 1974 by Ken Gulliksen, who had previous been a singer on the Christian Music circuit. The church's style was informal. Gulliksen took services dressed in his shorts and counted a number of LA musicians among his congregation, including T-Bone Burnett, Steven Soles and David Mansfield, all of whom had played on Dylan's Rolling Thunder Tour.
::Body Text
::In January 1979, one of Dylan's girlfriends, Mary Alice Artes, approached Pastor Kenn Gulliksen of an evangelical church called the Vineyard Fellowship in the San Fernando Valley and told him that he wanted someone to speak to her boyfriend. Gulliksen sent two colleagues, Paul Esmond and Larry Myers, to meet Dylan in the West LA suburb of Brentwood. Within days he had signed up with the Fellowship. Sometime in the coming weeks, he was baptized and he and Artes commenced a three-month series of bible classes at the School of Discipleship.
Hopefully, these sources will come in handy for both the Bob Dylan and the List of converts to Christianity articles.
I'll have to a few other bookstores tomorrow and see if any other useful books can be found.
If this is useful to any of you, I have the ISBNs.
:'Down the Highway: The Life of Bob Dylan' by Howard Sounes. 
:'The Rough Guide to Bob Dylan' by Nigel Williamson, 2nd Edition. 
Hopefully, I'll provide more excerpts tomorrow. --C.Logan 01:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I thought you said that the discussion had ended. No? -Scott P. 04:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't remember saying that. Trust me, I wouldn't end a discussion if it's unresolved. Am I confused about what you're asking me? --C.Logan 05:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *The text uses the word "probably" in relation to any Baptism of Dylan as concerns where the Baptism took place. It says "probably" in the ocean. We are talking here about someone making assumptions. This is clearly not someone who knows whether or not the act of Baptism took place. If the individual providing the account of Dylan's supposed Baptism had any real knowledge it is very reasonable to expect that they would know where it took place. Furthermore they don't know when it took place. The wording used says over the next few days. We are talking about assumptions complicated by assumptions. Without any real idea if any actual religious conversion took place, why are so many trying to assert that? Is that not pushing a personal agenda? Why is Dylan being put in the List of converts to Christianity as it is very clear that we in fact do not even know if he actually converted? A list is a black or white situation. These sorts of assumptions can find a balanced place in an article about Bob Dylan, but not in a list of converts to Christianity. A list of such converts is an either/or situation. The implication of inclusion on such a list is that the encyclopedia is sure that they belong there. No such surety exists in this instance. I feel that Dylan should be removed right now from that list. Bus stop 12:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *C.Logan -- Besides the fact that at best we have a "probably," for Baptism, we have the fact that he no longer practices Christianity, and probably practices, to some slight degree, his own religion, which is Judaism. I appreciate your efforts in typing all of the above, and I recognize your orientation to fairness. But given that Dylan doesn't practice Christianity, may not have even validly converted, and is a Jew, shouldn't he be removed immediately from the List of converts to Christianity? I would appreciate your response. Bus stop 13:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This entire discussion is getting rather out of hand. It seems that you put more weight into your own argument than into the sources which have actually been presented. The above excerpts are from well known, published sources. Both sources clearly state that he had a conversion. It states that he had a baptism. The fact that the source has no confirmation on the location of baptism has no bearing to this argument. How hard is it to understand that you are the one who is taking undue meaning from the text. You seem to assume that "because the source is not sure where he was baptized, the source can't possibly know that he was baptized". This isn't true. You can know that something occurred and not know where it occurred. You can know that you're friends got married, but you might not know where they happened to get married. Does this have any effect on the fact that they were married? No, it doesn't. The source states that he was baptized. The 'probably' is in regards to location. --C.Logan 22:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize if my most recent comments above and below seem rude. --C.Logan 22:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Published sources for Dylan's conversion, with more to come. 

message: Now that I know the full scope of the debate above, I have added the disclaimer regarding lapsed converts into the intro paragraph.  As noted above, I feel that for clarity's and honesty's sake, it is the responsibility of the editors of this article to do one of the following:
#Keep the disclaimer in the intro paragraph.
#Remove the disclaimer in the intro paragraph, but methodically note next to each known documented lapsed convert the fact that he or she is currently a lapsed convert.
#Remove the disclaimer, but remove all known documented lapsed converts from the list.
Unless one of these three options is followed, then I would have to say that the editors of this page seem to me to be presenting some very incomplete and potentially misleading information to the public.
-Scott P. 14:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too would support perhaps a separate listing of known "reverts", if there is sufficient content to make such a listing a viable article. Alternately, known "reverts" could be included in a separate subsection of each existing section. Personally, I do believe that the information on the reversion could possibly be even more interesting than the info on the initial conversion, and certainly see that it deserves inclusion as well. John Carter 02:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: While the above statement is factually true, there are numerous historical events in which given individuals have made a statement or other action of profession of one faith while factually continuing to adhere to an older faith. The Belmonte Jews and Sabbatai Zevi are instances of such in-name-only conversions which would probably qualify for inclusion in this proposed list. On that basis, while I can see how that list might also, in circumstances, be useful, its defined scope would be clearly different from a list of what were apparently sincere conversions. John Carter 16:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rationale for insertion of disclaimer for lapsed converts  in intro paragraph  

message: Non-religious too isn't also a religion. The entries in this section are dubious at best in the claims of either Agnosticism or Atheism. The entry also conflates the two (three effectively) very different approaches to questions regarding the existence of god or gods (the hidden 3rd view is non-religious). Ask an "agnostic" the question "are you an atheist ?" and the simple answer should be "No". Two approaches to fix this,
1) remove all the entries on the grounds that they have not converted from a "non-Christian religion"
2) alter the criteria to include worldviews that are not unnecessarily religious and segment this section into  three groups i.e. one for Agnostics, one for Atheists (both of which there very much so should be a pre-conversion claim or cite in which we can say they were agnostic or atheist prior to conversion) and finally a section for non-religious (which is the catch-all bucket for the above if they are uncited or dubious). Ttiotsw 01:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've altered the heading to reflect the presence of these belief systems. I'd be happy to look for some sources, but it is a pain, so it will take a little while. Perhaps a better alternative to 'non-religious' would be something along the lines of 'unknown former religion/belief system'. This would better reflect the fact that the section is a dump for entries which have no clear citations of former belief claims. --C.Logan 02:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mmm that change felt worse as it doesn't mention non-religious.  I've removed that part because why does it even bother trying to say what they converted from in the lead sentence ?. As we have seen with Dylan, the standards for inclusion in any section should be the same as inclusion in the article itself. Unless someone has explicitly stated they were agnostic or atheist we have to shift them to a new section (e.g. "unclear/unknown former belief system') Ttiotsw 03:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True, I didn't see the redundancy. --C.Logan 03:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would note that perhaps being a member of an agnostic or atheist group (North Texas Church of Freethought and the Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers) might be considered as eligible for inclusion, unless they somehow indicated that they were only "supporting" members or something similar. Maybe. I dunno. John Carter 15:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions

message: It seems to me that much of this debate about Dylan may turn on the propensity of some to interchangeably mix Jewish ethnicity with Jewish belief.  Undoubtedly Judaism is a belief system that is firmly identified with a certain ethnicity, while Christianity is really not.  This debate about Dylan's "Jewishness" appears to me to be far too readily mixing ethnic considerations with considerations of intellectual leanings.  These are two different sets of considerations and it might help us in this debate to clearly identify them as such.  
When viewed from a purely ethnic/ genetic perspective, Dylan has always been Jewish blooded and always will be.  When viewed from a purely intellectual/ faith perspective, Dylan's faith once included accepting Jesus as his savior, and now this appears a little "less certain".  
Most commonly Christianity does not contain ethnic overtones, but tends to focus on the intellectual/ faith perspective when regarding its identification of a convert.  Judaism apparently has two parallel definitions about what it means to be Jewish, one having strong ethnic and even genetic overtones, and the other which incorporates certain faith aspects.  
I think it is safe to say that this article was never intended to address any ethnic or genetic issues that some may have, but merely to address intellectual/ faith considerations.  The mixing of ethnic and genetic issues with faith issues appears to be something that is more frequently done by some minority groups such as the Jewish minority than by the majority group which happens to be Christian in the Western world.
I have added some text for clarification next to Dylan's entry on the page which I hope might help some to be more clear about his current faith affiliations, and I hope that this debate about Dylan's faith affiliations, where so much mis-communication seems to have gone on, might soon be put to rest.  Personally this has been a learning experience for myself for which I am quite grateful. 
Apparently Dylan has never renounced either Christianity or Judaism.  An interesting man, to say the least.  His mixing of both Jewish and Christian behavior, without renouncing either belief system, may put some who would pigeon-hole him into one or the other box, into a bit of an uncomfortable situation.  I personally find his refusal to renounce either belief system, and his mixing of both, to be a bit refreshing.
-Scott P. 12:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you- I tried to create a :Category:Jewish converts to Christianity yesterday to include Jews regardless of whether they had practiced Judaism or not but unfortunately a User:Jayjg deleted it claming it had been deleted before- but looking at the discussion Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_September_8#Category:Jews_who_converted_to_Christianity it doesn't look as if it was really debated to any great extent. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 12:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As an alternative, perhaps a more clearly defined :Category:Ethnic Jewish converts to Christianity might be counted as different enought to survive? Or, perhaps, adding a clear statement at the beginning of the content to indicate that the category includes all Jews, regardless of religious background, within its scope? John Carter 14:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I did put a statement on that category that it included all Jews, whether or not they practiced Judaism who converted to Christianity. I'm not sure why we can have a list of Jewish converts on this page and not have an equivalent category when there are plenty of other categories that also seem to be lists. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 14:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would only note that there are several editors who make it a point that they think categories which function primarily as, pardon the expression, "lazy lists" are rather quick to delete them. I myself could be counted as one such when I recently argued on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Saints that creating different categories for the liturgical feasts for every calendar day of all the major Christian denominations was probably a bad idea, and that a single (or group) of related articles could work just as well. It might be possible to include a few more links in various relevant articles to the List of notable converts to Judaism, maybe by inserting a link with the phrase "convert to Judaism" or something similar. That might have substantially the same effect. John Carter 14:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keeping ethnic identity and religious beliefs separate 

message: Eliot was a convert to Anglicanism from Unitarianism, which in the particular variety his family practiced ( see William Greenleaf Eliot) is a Christian denomination, though a non-trinitarian one.  His is not a conversion from agnosticism or atheism to Christianity, but from one Christian denomination to another.  In any case, no WP:RS is offered to justify his inclusion, so I'll remove him until such a source one is provided.  --Rrburke(talk) 21:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point seems to be well taken. I don't suppose we should include any Monophysites or Arians in the list either, although I don't think (I haven't checked, so I don't know) that any are included. John Carter 21:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[T.S. Eliot]] 

message: I have reverted the edit which removed the Twelve Apostles from the list of converts. All these individuals were apparently practicing Jews before they became the founders of Christianity. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that they were all "converts" to Christianity. The only person I can honestly see would not necessarily be included as a "Jewish convert" here might be Jesus himself, if one accepts his status as an incarnation of God. If one does not accept that, or believes that he were himself human, then presumably even he would qualify as a convert to Christianity. In any event, he individually strikes me as being the only true founder of Christianity. All the others, including Mary (mother of Jesus) and the Twelve Apostles, can be reasonably argued as having been practicing Jews before becoming Christians, and thus qualify as "converts" to Christianity. John Carter 20:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suspect part of the problem here is that until the "Replacement Theology" of Christianity had been fully established (for example I'd include the ideas related to the concept that "Outside the Church there is no salvation") it would be unfair to place the Apostles as apostate from Judaism. It took a few years until the foundation mythology of Christianity to be established enough for there to be a distinction between the two. I would suspect that the Apostles did not see the distinction that we do today between the two (e.g. look at history of circumcision in Christianity). I feel this entry is controversial. Ttiotsw 04:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They do seem to be stuck in a difficult middle position. However, it would seem that they did believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and that he rose from the dead. Isn't this the main separation between Judaism and Christianity today? Considering the above terms, I would consider them to be Christians. Additionally, the Bible seems to say that the followers of Jesus were first called 'Christians' at Antioch, so you could assume that at the time this was written, many of the Apostles would still be alive and would be categorized as such. I'm not claiming that this isn't controversial; I'm simply claiming that the Apostles share the two main points of Christian belief with Christians today.--C.Logan 04:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Founders 

message: I think the reason that many Jewish users may find this list uncomfortable is that they feel, justly in some cases that the conversion to Christianity occured because the state in which they lived was not a free open society for those of other faiths- the most extreme examples obviously being the Spanish inquisition, and then to a lesser but not insignificant extent the pressure to convert later in order to be more accepted in that society and to avoid possible discrimination. Perhaps we could have an explanation at the top of the list of Converts from Judaism which explains this? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 13:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, I have argued already against the inclusion of any clearly "forced" conversion being included on this page or any other page of lists of converts, on the basis that a "forced" in-name-only conversion is not significant enough to record. Having looked over the list of Jewish converts to Christianity on this page, I do not see any which clearly fall within the general categorization of coercive conversions, although I admit that I am far from being completely knowledgable on all the individuals involved. I have also argued that, if there is interest in listing such coercive conversions, that they would probably best be included in a separate list entirely. Having said all that, if you can find a name on the list which clearly qualifies as a coercive conversion, I personally would support removing that name from the list entirely. John Carter 13:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, obviously some are very obviously forced but many which occured say in 18th and 19th century Europe were not as such forced but there were barriers to those who were not Christian to partake in politics and other professions as well as generally being accepted in society. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 14:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I would not dispute that. And if you, or anyone else, can find any evidence that one or more of the people on the list as it is currently or subsequently constructed may have converted almost solely on the basis of existing social pressures, I would advocate the removal of those names as well. However, and I hope that you can see what I am saying even if I am less than effective in the presentation, I believe that in instances when "social pressure" is the presumptive cause of conversion, and the sole apparent presumptive cause of conversion, that there may be sufficient ambiguity regarding the individual's own, for lack of a better word, "degree" of belief, for the name to be mentioned. Maybe an example to bring into play here would be an example where a party changed religion to accomodate the religious belief of the party they were marrying. Most religions to some degree actively discourage marrying outside the faith, so it could be argued that anyone who actually does do so is already acting against the express teachings of their faiths. Clearly, the number of cases when a truly "committed" adherent to any religion would consider, as it were, endangering their own spiritual status to form a relationship with a "nonbeliever" (or whatever term might be used) is probably negligible. I understand and acknowledge that there may be extreme cases otherwise, and would welcome any direct evidence to support that any particular case may qualify as one. So, please bear with me, if it were to be argued that a Jew converted to Islam in Moorish Spain (or to Christianity in Poland) because conversion of that kind was the only way to achieve a status in society that they sought, that they clearly placed their material welfare over their spiritual welfare and that there status as real "Jews" (in the religious sense) may well have been on at least shaky ground to begin with. If they were truly "committed" to their faith, then it is all but certain that they could have found some circumstances where they could have achieved moderate success without endangering their spiritual status. The same argument could also be said for Christians in Pakistan, India and China, Hindus in the United States, and up and down the line. In cases like these, I think that a simple statement following their name to the effect of "converted when marrying Foo, a practicing (whatever)", or "converted to the prevailing religion of the time" (or to avoid the Spanish Inquisition or whatever), would probably be sufficient "qualifier" to indicate that there is good question regarding either and/or both their original commitment to the faith they converted from and that the conversion may have taken place at least in part due to extraneous concerns. I hope that makes sense, at least of a sort. John Carter 14:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Not sure I actually disagree. I think what I was trying to say above is that, in the event that if even the sources say that the conversion was brought about by social pressures, such as employment or marriage options, that on that basis the person should be included on the list. In the event a person perhaps covertly or privately continued to practice their original faith, and verification for same is available, however, then there would be sufficient evidence that the conversion was not in fact a true one and it might be possible to rule out their inclusion on that basis. I am thinking here specifically of people who are told, as it were, "convert or die" (or similar) and decide the former option is the more appealing one. However, I do agree that simply asserting that the conversion was a result of pressure, without explicit documented evidence to the contrary, would probably be at best a bad idea. John Carter 22:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree entirely with user patsw.  Please see Threshold for conversion?  below. I think I agree with John Carter too.  -Scott P. 11:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sensitivities over conversion to Christianity

message: I commented above that the vast majority of "converts" to Christianity are either former Jews or former Muslims.  If you include Hindus and pre-Christian pagans/polytheists, then you've clearly got a majority of people who can be correctly called converts.  
Now, I'm not sure I'd actually advocate a change to this page, but I think I should at least point out a subtlety.  Many East Asian Christians may not really be properly classed as "converts," even if they came to Christianity from another faith.  Many East Asians have developed a sort of sythetic faith that doesn't see Christianity as exclusive to Buddhist, Confusian, Shinto, or Tao faith.  Many of these faiths are classed by their followers as "not religions," or at least not theisms or creation mythologies.  For this reason, if you add the percent of Japanese who call themselves Christians to the percent who call themselves Buddhist, and those who call themselves "Shinto or other," you'll wind up with a lot more than 100%.  A Buddhist can become Christian without necessarily ceasing to be Buddhist.  If you consider some of the more exotic "Christian" synthetic faiths, such as Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, you'll see that there's a lot of ambiguity, and that people who embraced Christianity are not necessarily "converts" in the strictest sense. What should be done about this?  Well, maybe just include a comment on this ambiguity within the relevant section(s). zadignose 13:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is clearly a point here. The only three options I can think of are (1) remove such names, (2) individually clarify them, and (3) perhaps specifically define any religion named as, where appropriate, it's "stand-alone" as opposed to "syncretic" version. I note the same argument could be made about an early convert to Islam or Christianity from Judaism, or Buddhism and Hinduism, for example, and several other places, as initially these faiths were often seen as being "sects" within the pre-existing religion. Given the three options above, I would personally favor (3) with perhaps a seaparate section specifically devoted to individuals who join a syncretic version of a given faith? John Carter 14:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be sufficient to explain that many of these East Asian 'religions' would more properly be termed 'philosophies' in modern usage. We should provide a disclaimer which clarifies that, as these Eastern philosophies are not religions, it should not necessarily be assumed that someone who has converted to Christianity has renounced their personal philosophies. Buddhism is not necessarily theistic, and therefore it can be practiced by both atheists and theists. I believe that conversion is an applicable term because those who are listed have either converted from atheistic Buddhist philosophy or general theistic Buddhist philosophy. Therefore, the atheist or vague theism has been abandoned in favor of the specifics of Christian monotheism. This is just my interpretation.--C.Logan 20:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The Gandhi example is relevant. Being a Christian for the purposes of this list should include identification with a mainstream church, not the belief in certain aspects of Christianity. The argument that syncretic religions in some way 'permit' one to believe certain aspects of Christianity is seductive until one realises that one is looking at it the wrong way: Christianity does not permit one to believe certain aspects of the syncretic philosophy. If you wish to remove Reunification Church people, go ahead. But most Koreans are Baptists, and I don't see that community being fuzzy about what they believe in the slightest. It doesnt matter what they convert from, it matters what they convert to. Hornplease 15:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable use of the word "converts" for many East Asians, etc. 

message: What could we say is the "litmus test" for conversion to Christianity?  I agree with John Carter that those who were 'forced' to convert, on pain of a well defined physical threat, in most cases should probably not be included here.  But then after that it becomes a  bit of a slippery slope in my humble opinion.  Clearly, once the emperor Constantine first declared Christianity as the "state religion" many new "converts" arose.  Suddenly being "Christian" became the key to upward social mobility.  Now could it be said that any of these new converts might have been "forced"?  (Either you convert, or you will not be promoted.)  The same applies to Islam.  There were those who converted at the point of a sword, then there were those who converted for financial or social gain.  Then there were those in both religions who seemed sincere after their "forced" conversions.  It begins to look like a very slippery slope indeed, does it not?  I say, leave it at this:  Leave off the list, those who were forced due to physical threat, and who never gave any evidence of any other basis for their conversion.  Generally take everyone else at their word for it.  If they said they were Christian, and they were not known to explicitly contradict themselves in this, then leave it at that. Otherwise, it seems to me that this could all get quite complicated. -Scott P. 11:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 'threshhold' for conversion? 

message: This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Docg 11:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Articles for Deletion debate

message: WP:BLP clearly states that we do not slander a person with untrue statements. Since Dylan is not a Christian, why is he listed on a list of converts to Christianity? Bus stop 12:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * I strongly suggest that you not edit war on this page. If you have a bone to pick with the contents of this list, you would be best served by participating here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#List_of_notable_converts_to_Christianity. Your other options include an article RFC or Arbitration. Any of those options would provide you with a platform to make any points that you consider valid.JJay 12:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: JJay -- You will notice that Dylan is pictured on and mentioned on American Jews, yet the Wikipedia Christianity project persists in slandering him by placing him on a list of Christians. He is clearly not a Christian. Sources do not support that assertion. The sources from the period 1979/1980 do not support the labeling of him as a Christian, or a convert to Christianity, in the year 2007. Sources have areas of applicability and areas where they do not have applicability. Were this list being compiled in 1980 the citations provided would support the placing of Dylan on a list of converts to Christianity. But 27 years (1980 to 2007) of having nothing to do with Christianity, plus clear involvement in Judaism, in addition to the facts of his birth and upbringing as a Jew, show that placement on a list of converts to Christianity, makes a mockery of a most basic principle -- the neutrality principle Wikipedia is founded upon. Bus stop 16:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I can't see any reason whatsoever for your post above, or for most of your constant messages here regarding Bob Dylan. Please reread my post above regarding mediation and the other dispute resolution processes available to you. JJay 16:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shouldn't Dylan be removed from this list? 

message: By my understanding, the request for mediation indicated at the top of this page will become nullified if the one party who has so far refused to sign on to such mediation, User:Bus stop, does not do so by the end of the 11th. Do the rest of you think that, should that continue, any further attempts at arbitration should be attempted? By my understanding, the next place to appeal would be WP:ArbCom. Is this correct? If it is not, can any of you tell me what the next step would be? Also, if it is correct, what do the rest of you think of the idea of referring this discussion to that body? John Carter 15:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that the request for mediation has been rejected on the basis of the above named user not accepting mediation. Would the rest of you agree that, under the circumstances, some sort of outside input is going to be required in this instance? Also, as I understand it, ArbCom is possibly the only remaining outlet for resolution of this dispute. Do any of you believe otherwise? If yes, what other steps are open? And, if ArbCom is the only remaining option, would the rest of you agree that it is reasonable to seek a final decision on this matter, even if that is the only remaining alternative? John Carter 15:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This could go on forever. Bus stop's habit of ignoring opposing points and simply rephrasing his argument is essentially a well which can't run dry. I don't feel the need to go into much detail here. He's made it clear that he is not willing to compromise or mediate in any way. No changes have improved the situation, and have actually inflamed it. I can't say for sure what the next step should be, but this discussion must be halted. It's become a parody; a circus of accusation and unsourced statements. It's impossible to make progress when the opposing editors feel it a necessity to accuse us of violating policies and guidelines which are irrelevant and taken out of context. There is no real point in continuing this discussion. --C.Logan 16:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a little curious as to why peoiple feel the need to keep responding to his posts.  This isn't an Oxonian debating society where a point stands if not responded to.  Bus stop has had his say; the other editors on the page haven't been convinced by his arguments, so that seems the end of it.  Consensus does not mean unanimity.  ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 16:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:ObiterDicta - Point taken. It seems that I've become used to the misrepresentation, and therefore I prefer not to leave statements and accusations unanswered, lest an observer (unaware of the points throughout the discussion) does indeed think that a point stands if not responded to, and finds merit in the argument because of this fact. At this point, I can copy and paste clips of previous comments made by myself, John Carter, Scott Perry, Demong, JJay and yourself in response. That's how stagnant this discussion has become. --C.Logan 17:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: There is a point to the question above. Personally, from my perspective, I think Bus stop might decide to once again revert the text without consultation, as s/he has already repeatedly done. Bus stop has already demonstrated a willingness to act without consensus in these matters, and at least one response seems to be required to prevent that user possibly using some sort of spurious argument. I agree that consensus has seemed to have been established. Unfortunately, I don't know if it would be recognized as such, were the text reverted once again. I am myself comparatively new to this process, so I welcome any outside input. Is the apparent consensus which has already been apparently reached possibly sufficient grounds to indicate that consensus has been reached? Or perhaps should we make a formal request for opinion on a specific question? Like I said, I'm new and would welcome any input which might clearly and at least temporarily clearly lead to a resolution of this matter. John Carter 17:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no consensus. Cleo123 03:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no real mechanism for a "formal opinion" on this.  The Arbcom does not rule on content disputes.  Edit-warring against consensus is a blockable offense and Bus stop could be blocked if he disrupts the article. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 17:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be interested in reading WP:DE, if you are unfamiliar with it. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 17:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the link to the info. Bus stop already was blocked twice before his most recent removal of the Dylan content. Evidently, s/he isn't very quick on the uptake here. However, if I understand what you're saying, we could just basically end the conversation and restore the content should it be altered/removed again, perhaps calling some admin's attention to it, and basically not have to pay attention to these repetitious statements of his? I have to admit I do like the sound of that. John Carter 17:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the basic idea, yes. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 17:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibility of referring this discussion to [[WP:ArbCom]]? 

message: As per the discussion here, I have removed the template  from this article page. John Carter 17:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of template from article page 

message: There are a number of articles which seem to deal with issues which cannot be competently handled by editors who, however well meaning, may not have the knowledge required to be able to address all the issues involved. Unfortunately, all the WikiProjects which deal with religious subjects deal primarily with a single faith tradition, and will as a result have comparatively few people competent to address matters regarding other faiths. This is clearly a contentious and difficult matter, but it seems to me personally to be one that is likely to be faced possibly more frequently than any of us would necessarily like. I have thus proposed that there be a specific WikiProject or subproject to deal with articles with content of this type. Any parties who would be interested in working on such content will find the proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Inter-religious content. I understand that many of you would find me less than qualified to join such a group, but I would be more than willing to remove my name from the list were such requested by the majority of other editors who respond on that page. Thank you for your attention. John Carter 19:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed project to deal with inter-religious issues