Talk:L. Ron Hubbard/Sandbox/Archive1

message: * Justanother: This is POV OR, Damon, it is not black/white like this and many of these think well of Hubbard
**Better now. --Justanother 05:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Editor comments''

message: During the late 1940s, Hubbard was financially destitute, and appeared to suffer from depression and suicidal thoughts, according to a letter he wrote requesting assistance from Veterans Affairs.The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power Page 2, Time Magazine. The founder of this enterprise was part storyteller, part flimflam man. Born in Nebraska in 1911, Hubbard served in the Navy during World War II and soon afterward complained to the Veterans Administration about his "suicidal inclinations" and his "seriously affected" mind.  During this period he also wrote passages in his journal like;
Not an aspect of his "personality" but an isolated incident following A WORLD WAR that killed 50 MILLION. --Justanother 04:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually that is part of someone's personality, asking for help and identifying problems with oneself. You're also just rationalizing for him by saying it was an isolated incident caused by WW II. (By the way, you know he didn't kill or see anyone die during the conflict. He almost saw his XO killed by a wild firing 20mm cannon though.) Anynobody 07:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree, here. And associating Hubbard's depression with WWII would be original research, Justanother. I think you'd be better served by trying to find balancing quotes describing Hubbard's charm and charisma. I've been trying to find them myself, but it's been difficult to sift through all the negative. --GoodDamon 16:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the original research is trying to make an isolated situation into "Hubbard's personality". There is no RS that Hubbard had continuing issues with depression. So if you want to title it "An incident of depression" then that would be accurate but shows the almost triviality of it. --Justanother 16:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not original research. It's from Hubbard himself, as in the above quote: "...I cannot account for nor rise above long periods of moroseness and suicidal inclinations..." --GoodDamon 17:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is sourced by one critical article and even that limited this episode to a relatively short period of Hubbard's life and did not try to present it as "his personality". That is the OR and POV-push. From the source:"In the late 1940s . . ."; "emotional problems that consumed him in the 1940s . . ."; "in those little known years of his life"I do not think that a one-sided article should show more perspective than an encyclopedia. --Justanother 18:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's both the Time article and the LA Times article, but I agree that as it was written it pushes the view of Hubbard as depressed for longer than the evidence indicates. Here's a preliminary reworking which I hope is fairer to the man and that period in his life. Let me know what you think. --GoodDamon 18:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: There is more evidence of Hubbard's depression, but I held off mentioning it because it also includes his drug abuse. (In the article it's already briefly mentioned.) Anynobody 20:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A bout of depression

message: L. Ron Hubbard was a complicated man,Hubbard, the judge said, was "a very complex person." whose personality and past were issues he took steps to hide aspects of. An example of this behavior was seen when he married his second wife, Sara Northrup, without mentioning the wife to whom he was still married and their children.Scientology Founder's Family Life Far From What He Preached Don Lattin Monday, February 12, 2001 In divorce papers filed in Los Angeles Superior Court in 1951, Sara Hubbard said the founder of Scientology did not mention that he was already married - and had two children - when they exchanged their vows on Aug. 10, 1946. This became a reason for her later divorce from Hubbard, during which it was revealed that his first wife had been treated badly by him as well.During the legal proceedings, Sara placed in the court record a letter she had received from Hubbard's first wife. "Ron is not normal," it said. "I had hoped you could straighten him out. Your charges probably sound fantastic to the average person -- but I've been through it -- the beatings, threats on my life, all the sadistic traits which you charge -- 12 years of it." At the same time he was known to be very sociable, and entertaining such as a 1948 gathering of science fiction buffs in Los Angeles, when he hypnotized many of those in attendance. He was able to convince one person they were cradling a baby kangaroo.Hubbard had long been fascinated with mental phenomena and the mysteries of life. He was an expert in hypnotism. During a 1948 gathering of science fiction buffs in Los Angeles, he hypnotized many of those in attendance, convincing one young man that he was cradling a tiny kangaroo in his hands.
With the eventual success of Scientology came money and legal trouble, which also brought isolation. Money gave him the means to hide from authorities by living at sea and then later at a private ranch in California, all the while keeping only select members near him whom he trusted. The reclusive and wealthy Hubbard was then able to portray himself as the man currently celebrated by Scientologists, while hiding aspects of his actual personality which starkly contrasted with this image.The privileged few who worked at his side saw personality flaws and quirks not reflected in the staged photographs or in Hubbard's biographies. Several of the people trusted to be near him say Hubbard was prone to emotional fits when he became upset.When upset, Hubbard was known to erupt like a volcano, spewing obscenities and insults. 
Hubbard also battled extended periods of depression and suicidal thoughts, according to a letter he wrote requesting assistance from Veterans Affairs.The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power Page 2, Time Magazine. The founder of this enterprise was part storyteller, part flimflam man. Born in Nebraska in 1911, Hubbard served in the Navy during World War II and soon afterward complained to the Veterans Administration about his "suicidal inclinations" and his "seriously affected" mind.  During this period he also wrote passages in his journal like; Despite this, followers still think of him as "the greatest humanitarian in history."He was, they say, "the greatest humanitarian in history." One spokesman for the Church says;
===Discussion===
Folks it is not OR to summarize what several sources say:
*L. Ron Hubbard was a complicated man, source: The LA Times: Hubbard, the judge said, was "a very complex person." 
*whose personality and past were issues he took steps to hide aspects of, sources: The Navy, LA Times, Time, etc.
**This is not OR it's simply trying to be as respectful as possible, (substitute the words "hid" and "hide" for "lied" and "lie" to see what I mean) 
1. He lied about the nature of his college education and his real grades  (remember he claimed to be a nuclear physicist)
2. He has lied about his naval career see sources in L. Ron Hubbard and the military
3. He lied about his association with Jack Parsons 
4. He lied to Sara Northrup when engaing in a bigamous marriage with her 
5. He only allowed his Commodore's messangers around him after he became established to hid episodes like his hat stomping or "soap smell" tantrums. 
Anynobody 03:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In general, I agree with you. But those are all very strong assertions that you're putting in a very POV-pushing manner. Just as an example, saying Hubbard was complicated is rather POV, while showing his complicated personality is not, but conveys the same information. I would rather Hubbard's complexity be shown instead of told to me. --GoodDamon 18:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Admittedly, it's a matter of context. It's not that "complicated" is a POV word by itself, it's that it was immediately followed by nothing but negative detail about him. In a section specifically devoted to negative detail about him, an alternate lead would be more suitable. I'll see what I can come up with. --GoodDamon 23:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Personality (One voice)

message: Folks it is not OR to summarize what several sources say:
*L. Ron Hubbard was a complicated man, source: The LA Times: Hubbard, the judge said, was "a very complex person." 
*whose personality and past were issues he took steps to hide aspects of, sources: The Navy, LA Times, Time, etc.
**This is not OR it's simply trying to be as respectful as possible, (substitute the words "hid" and "hide" for "lied" and "lie" to see what I mean) 
1. He lied about the nature of his college education and his real grades  (remember he claimed to be a nuclear physicist)
2. He has lied about his naval career see sources in L. Ron Hubbard and the military
3. He lied about his association with Jack Parsons 
4. He lied to Sara Northrup when engaing in a bigamous marriage with her 
5. He only allowed his Commodore's messangers around him after he became established to hid episodes like his hat stomping or "soap smell" tantrums. 
Anynobody 03:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In general, I agree with you. But those are all very strong assertions that you're putting in a very POV-pushing manner. Just as an example, saying Hubbard was complicated is rather POV, while showing his complicated personality is not, but conveys the same information. I would rather Hubbard's complexity be shown instead of told to me. --GoodDamon 18:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Admittedly, it's a matter of context. It's not that "complicated" is a POV word by itself, it's that it was immediately followed by nothing but negative detail about him. In a section specifically devoted to negative detail about him, an alternate lead would be more suitable. I'll see what I can come up with. --GoodDamon 23:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion