Talk:Collapse of the World Trade Center/Archive 7

message: Hi Golbez, sorry about moving those numbers around in 1 WTC/WTC 1. I was going to ask if there had been any discussion about that. NIST uses the other convention, but I don't mind standing corrected on this. I've probably just grown to used to the other form.--Thomas Basboll 09:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless I am wrong then I am correct in stating it was the other one.
Jussenadv 05:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The proper format sigh (1 WTC or WTC 1) 

message: I dont think the title of that is acurate, epsecially it is recently that the conpiracy theories have gained popularity. Raemie 10:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus that has been reached on this article is that the best explanation for/description of the WTC collapses is the one that the mainstream engineering community has arrived at. The popularity of the controlled demolition hypothesis does not make it a "recent" attempt to understand the collapses; indeed, it has no currency in the engineering literature. It has, however, been briefly considered by the NIST investigation and dismissed. If the conspiracy theorists are right, then that may one day be acknowledged by engineers. If that happens, the relevant parts of the article will be shifted around. Controlled demolition will move up into the "collapse mechanism" section, and sagging floors will move down into the "earlier attempts" section. The trouble, in short, is that controlled demolition is not currently being considered as a solution to the engineering riddle of the collapses. (Engineers see the riddle as largely solved.) The best we can do is say that it has been considered.--Thomas Basboll 11:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early attempts to understand the collapses 

message: I'd like to include some quotes about pancaking, since that is a heading. Here, NIST advances the pancake theory:
"When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception." 
But here, they specifically denounce it:
"NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, . . ." 
I don't want to make NIST look bad, so perhaps it's best just to ignore this?? Zarcon 21:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears to be referring to two phenomena: the structural failure in the fire zone, where several floors likely buckled in concert, and the progressive collapse of the undamaged floors below the fire zone.  (Or possibly mixing a technical and non-technical meaning of "pancaking".) Hopefully there's a reference where they spelled that out properly. Peter Grey 22:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added the NIST quotes Zarcon 02:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NIST Internal Consistancy

message: Please vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/9/11: Press for Truth.  Badagnani 06:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New film / deletion vote 

message: Have a look and tell me what you think. It's still a bit rough, I'll polish it if no one else does.--Thomas Basboll 18:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New 7 WTC text 

message: I think there is too much detail in the construction section right now. Some of it might be moved to the main World Trade Center article, and a link should be established. As a guide, I imagine that the relevant structural description should not be longer than the impact and fire sections combined. And possibly as short as one of them.--Thomas Basboll 07:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please use Wikipedia:Citation templates whenever adding references to the article...I spent a lot of time working on them in the recent past, so let's try to keep it uniform. Thanks.--MONGO 08:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reducing construction section 

message: I would like to add something that I haven't seen yet in all info about 9/11. A Dutch demolition expert (Danny Jowenko http://www.jowenko.nl/) stated on TV in the Dutch Zembla Documentary "Het complot van 11 september" ("The 9/11 Conspiracy") (http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/index.php/aflevering?aflID=3273161&md5=94816f8b6e5deee5d511a372b7ff6f23) of September 10th 2006 That it was obviously that "no explosives could have been used on the WTC". He gives two reasons for this:
#the WTC collapse goes from top to bottom: no controlled collapse ever has been done like that: explosives are always put at the bottom so the building collapses from its own inertia.
#Since both towers collapse from top to bottom this means there had to be explosives at all floors, top to bottom, that would have been detonated in order (starting at top working down to bottom). This is not possible because there was a fire on the floors hit; if there were any explosives in the building, they would have just burned. And, more important: every explosive uses a detonator. Those detonators would have exploded way before because they go off at a temperature of 320 degrees celsius; hence no explosives could have used.
The video Loose_Change_%28video%29 shows enlarged puffs of smoke coming out the WTC towers some 30 floors below the collapse and states that this is evidence of explosives. However, as Jowenko concludes, these were bolts and parts of the steel construction popping out because of the enormous strain by the collapse. This collaborates with the remarks made by firemen in the 9/11_%28film%29: "Bolt by bolt started popping out".
His opinion was double checked (as shown in the Zembla documentary) by a team from the TU Delft TU (Technical University) of Delft and they came to the same conclusion based on their calculations.
:The most common response to this is that the WTC was by no means an "ordinary" demolition. Steven Jones, I think, has argued that if thermate was used it would not be set off by the fires (and would have had to be encased anyway to focus their effects on the steel, so it would not simply have burned off). Obviously I don't know if he's right about that. In any case, it looked to me like Jowenko was saying that it was certainly not demolition like he would do it in the light of day. Shady characters involved in a conspiracy to make it look like something other than a demolition might do it differently, I would think.--Thomas Basboll 19:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there was another part of Zembla documentary and even after Jovenko was shown the damage diagram of WTC7 he sustained his claim that WTC7 was demolished. That's why I sourced his video with other experts claims about it. --SalvNaut 00:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demolition opinions 

message: In the same Documentary as mentioned above, they took a look at the collapse of WTC Building 7. According to Dutch demolition expert Danny Jowenko, the collapse of that building "definately looks like a controlled blast". He comes to this conclusion because the building collapses from the bottom, a trademark for controlled demolition.
Jowenko can not explain the fact that the building collapsed on the same day, and is surprised it did, because according to him it would take a team of 30 to 40 people to do this in the given timeframe (the building was on fire for 4 hours). However, he leaves out the option it was rigged before that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.161.18.197 (talk • contribs) 14:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there was another part of Zembla documentary and even after Jovenko was shown the damage diagram of WTC7 he sustained his claim that WTC7 was demolished. That's why I sourced his video with other experts claims about it. --SalvNaut 00:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WTC Building 7 Collapse

message: The Danish remarks seem to be confined to expert commentary in the days immediately following 9-11. They therefore add nothing to, say, the Romero remarks. The dutch remark, since it is so recent, is very interesting. I would agree with Mongo, however, and say that given the stuff already cited about NIST's response to the CD hypothesis in the case WTC 7, we need to wait for them to respond to Jowenko. Keep in mind that the consensus on this article is, a bit too simply put, that NIST knows best. Compared with their authority (and they don't think it is obviously CD) Jowenko is almost nothing, from the our perspective as WP editors. But I hope engineers like Bazant take an interest in it (he did respond to Cherepanov's ideas.) Only then will we have something to report here.--Thomas Basboll 10:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Danish remarks on controlled demolition 

message: [Note. This is a rephrasing of a comment that was taken as a personal attack and deleted. I haven't heard about the incident directly, but I am of course sorry it was taken that way.] Mongo recently reverted an edit on the grounds that the material included was available on YouTube and constituted "opinionated junk science" (these two reasons seemed to be related, but may not necessarily have been). But in the case in question, YouTube had not been suggested as a "source"; rather, an apparently pretty respected (I'll stand corrected if this impression turns out wrong) Dutch news program, which happens to be conveniently available on YouTube, has been cited. (Online repositories are not sources; they store both good and bad ones). We can discuss the source, but it's availability on YouTube by itself does not reflect poorly on it. Jowenko's credentials can be easily verified at his company's webpage, as can the relative mainstreaminess of the Zembla programme, which appears to be as fair and balanced as any other news program. Jowenko is pretty confident that the only way you can make a collapsing building look the way WTC looked from that angle, regardless of the damage done to side that is not visible, is by controlled demolition. Moreover, he seemed to think it was a pretty nice job. He offered his expert opinion, he did not pretend to be doing science, nor did the program claim that it was scientific to look a video and conjecture about the most likely collapse mechanism.--Thomas Basboll 21:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then, as noted, it is simply an opinion. Why do you wish to push opinions?--MONGO 21:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with MONGO on this.  The opinion of Jowenko, based on him viewing a video and commenting on what the collapse looked like, isn't notable enough.  Per undue weight, we need not mention it here.  The vast overwhelming opinion of the structural engineering and controlled demolition communities is that they agree with NIST.  Independent expert opinions on the matter have been published in numerous peer reviewed papers in scholarly journals.  --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 21:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not defending Jowenko's opinion, and I have not suggested it be included. I am objecting to a particular way of a justifying an edit. The proposed justification has two parts (1) that the source is YouTube when it is not and (2) that the content is "opinionated junk science" when it is an expert opinion offered in an apparently serious news documentary. I am not pushing opinions but trying to insist on sustainable editorial criteria.--Thomas Basboll 21:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Please read the discussion above - it's not about Jovenko solely and not about section under this article. Jovenko took a close look on this case (there were two TV programmes with him) and his opinion about WTC7, as it's nothing more than an opinion, is notable among other opinions. It's been decided not to put it here, but I'd like to put it under 7 World Trade Center because the scope of the Collapse section is different from the one here.--SalvNaut 21:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is no more notable for inclusion there than it is here.--MONGO 22:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But do you see that this has nothing to do with either YouTube or junk science? It has to do with the gap between an expert opinion offered to a journalist (which is perfectly good as far as it goes) and an ongoing investigation by a government agency.--Thomas Basboll 22:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: If those two sections WTC7 here and Collapse under 7 World Trade Center have the same scope, then I propose concilatory solution: to copy paste the section from here to there. --SalvNaut 22:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It doesn't belong in the WTC7 article either.  The problem with Jowenko's opinion is that he had never heard about the collapse of WTC7, but was then shown the video (taken from one, less damaged side of the bldg) and not told when the collapse happened.  With selective presentation of video evidence, Jowenko gives some off-the-cuff remarks on how the collapse appeared, initiating from towards the bottom of the building, versus the top for WTC1 and WTC2. Then, he's told this happened on 9/11, and responds by saying "The same day?  Are you sure?", "Are you sure it was the 11th?  That can't be."  He is told, "Seven hours after the WTC" Jowenko replies, "Really?"  Jowenko is also told, "The building was on fire.", Jowenko replies "They didn't extinguish it?" and told "So, they'd have to do it [plant the explosives] while it was on fire." and Jowenko replies "Yes, that's odd, I agree. I can't explain it."  When given more context and explanation of the situation in WTC7, Jowenko seems to back off of the "it looks like controlled demolition". --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 23:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As for the Swiss opinions, one was based on "few existing video photographs than references that the building WTC 7", and the other doesn't say what evidence he bases the opinion.  It could be that like Jowenko, these Swiss "experts" were not all that informed about the circumstances of WTC7, the big gashes (some 20 stories tall) and damage inflicted on WTC7, the specifics of how WTC7 was constructed on top of the Con Ed substation, etc. --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 23:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't know the whole story - they made a second programme with Jovenko appearance. He said then that it's impossible that WTC1&2 were demolished because of amount of explosives needed and fire temperatures, and he sustained his opinion about WTC7 being demolished. And how it exactly was with those two others? I don't know and no one here does. All we know that the decided to express their opinions for some reason, right? I do not insist to include this if we are not to include opinions at all. --SalvNaut 23:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think brief quotes in news stories are adequate.  It's important to have context to the opinions, and know what evidence they base them from?  As for the second program with Jowenko, do you have a link to it?  Even if what you say is accurate representation of what Jowenko says, per undue weight, it's a fringe minority opinion among structural engineer and CD experts. --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 23:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm ok with the WTC7 section as it is now, and I'm ok with the other article after some trims and edits made. As for Jovenko: DirkvdM described it. Search on this talk page for phrase A slightly more detailed retelling of what was told on the show Maybe, there are other Jovenko videos on YouTube.--SalvNaut 23:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Opinionated Junk Science" & YouTube 

message: Again, I am baffled by Mongo's edit summaries. If the passage is nonsense (it is not) then it no more belongs at the bottom of the page than where we had it (are we trying to punish it somehow?). After the painstaking process of winning consensus for exactly that way of putting it, I don't know why we are now going to have to discuss where in the article it should go. But let me suggest right after the building seven section, which also ends with a mention of the hypothesis.--Thomas Basboll 23:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move of controlled demolition 

message: Googling "controlled demolition conspiracy theory": 35 hits, 15 unique.
Googling "controlled demolition theory": 10,300 hits, 316 unique.
The second term is the proper label.  *Sparkhead 15:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So what...stop POV pushing nonsense.--MONGO 15:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm using the term that references the theory, even in MSM sources.   You're pushing a title that is rarely used and has zero ghits in MSM.  Which is POV?  *Sparkhead 15:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but this article is not the place to POV push things for which there is zero proof. Google links for Sasquatch don't make him/her a fact..--MONGO 15:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but they could help prove notability. A "theory" isn't a fact. It's a theory.  You seem to be confused regarding the definition.  There's no POV bias to the word.   "Controlled demolition allegation" has zero ghits.  The concept, flawed as it might be, is generally known as the "controlled demolition theory", whether it's being presented as a possibility or being ridiculed as insanity.  There's nothing POV about the terminology.  Yes, you can revert the change, again, but it's clearly the proper term to use to cover the content. *Sparkhead 18:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources refer to controlled demolition as a conspiracy theory,        to name a few. --Aude (talk) 18:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's a conspiracy theory that's most commonly labelled as "controlled demolition theory". Not one of the references you listed uses the explicit term "controlled demolition conspiracy theory".  However, two of them do use the term "controlled-demolition theory".  Care to point out a reference I missed?  The google searches above only further common usage.  The text clearly says it is a conspiracy theory, but the title should reflect common usage.  *Sparkhead 19:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controlled Demolition Section Title 

message: In fact dozens and dozens of such "disputing" "scholars" exists. For example professor Steven Jones, american physicist, is notable for claiming that destruction of the World Trade Center during September 11 terrorist attacks may have involved controlled explosive demolition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones
I thus propose the removal of the following sentence:
"The hypothesis has never been suggested in mainstream engineering scholarship and its proponents are considered "outsiders".[44] 
The whole sentence is nonsensical, and quite frankly suggest that a secular view of engineering sciences is valid.
And propose the addition of the following sentence:
"Inquiry into alternative hypotheses has been demanded by many scientific experts."
-list deleted-
Lets see what you have to say  --EndurinFreedom 20:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote that sentence way back when. Jones was already on the scene and, I think, he's quite specifically one of the "outsiders" that Bazant and Verdure are referring to. This sentence is not nonsensical in any way I am aware of. It is about the marginalization of the controlled demolition hypothesis, which, whatever side you're on, is a fact. Mainstream engineering simply won't hear of it. The standard that has been applied here is not whether trained scientists and engineers support controlled demolition, but whether the hypothesis passes peer-review. (BTW, I have no illusions about the apolitical nature of peer review, but it's the best filter we've got.) What you need (and what may one day come) is a peer-reviewed article in a mainstream engineering journal proposing CD or seriously criticizing the received view (bascially NIST's). That would falsify the sentence you're referring to.--Thomas Basboll 20:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok yeah I see it now *forehead slap*. So it is about politics and engineering in North America. How could I misinterpret that! Of course! I mean mix a bunch of rusty nails, soda cans, gyproc and gasoline and it will make thermite, righttt. So that holds. Not sure if the problem is actually the title - perhaps it is a kind of a red flag, misleading? --EndurinFreedom 20:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the remarkable thing is that it's not just North America. Even here in Denmark the mainstream engineering trade journal did an (uninspired) debunking of controlled demolition (saying nothing new). I search every once in a while, and I haven't found controlled demolition proposed in engineering journals anywhere. It's very much about the politically and scientifically grounded consenus among a group of professionals. Science, perhaps sadly, has never been free of politics. Keep in mind how long it took for scientists to officially to admit that smoking is not really good for you. Or think of Galileo. Or global warming (interesting example because you can use it no matter what side you're on).--Thomas Basboll 21:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, in others words, as time goes on, the real facts will become more apparent...ie...that controlled demolition was the cause of the collapse? Darwin's theory of evolution hasn't been changed very much in well over 100 years...most of his premises have been found to be true. The allegations that the Apollo Moon Landings were a hoax have persisted for almost 40 years, yet there is no proof they have a basis in fact. As far as Pliny the Elder...of course his observations are citable...he was as reliable a reference as we have from that period. Today, we have better witnesses to the scientific understanding of what caused the WTC to collapse than the heresay of some reporters who may have eyewitnessed the event in person or on the tele and are hardly experts in controlled demolition or srtuctural engineering.--MONGO 21:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just [saying] the idea is marginalized, and you're right that there are both true and false ideas that have been marginalized in the past. Pliny was not a reliable source about the cause of the eruptions but what they looked like. For that we need eyewitnesses and the reporters who talk to them.--Thomas Basboll 21:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was as reliable a source to interpret the events of his day as anyone since no one understood volcanology then. Today, we have engineers and specialists that can do a much better job explaining what happened than a untrained eyewitness.--MONGO 06:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Pliny was an exceptionally reliable source because he was a good writer and was able to accurately describe what he saw. (The fact that "plinian" now denotes a particular kind of eruption testifies to this fact.) We need to find similarly reliable first-hand accounts of an event that engineers subsequently tried to explain. It's just interesting. Would you leave out Herbert Morrison's classis "Oh, the humanity!" coverage of the Hindenburg Disaster  on the grounds that he's not trained in airship engineering?--Thomas Basboll 08:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Claim "Never Disputed By Mainstream Scholars" Is False 

message: It is not taugh in any engineering school, and the businesses maintain that it is a kind of craft, group of skills learned trough practice and experimentation.
Please comment  (This related to the "Controlled Demolition -part of the article)--EndurinFreedom 23:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the basic approach here has been to see the collapses as engineering disasters. The CD hypothesis makes them a crime in an additional way that this article, like NIST, simply hasn't considered. I know there is one CD expert (i.e., someone who knows the craft) who has said that the WTC 7 collapse is obviously a demolition. But there are others (Blanchard at Protec, for example) who say the opposite. But, like I say, neither the official investigations, nor this article, approach the collapses as a possible crime in its own right, which means they were looking for a structural account that could explain how the airplane impacts were sufficient. It's a bit like a death that is so obviously a suicide that murder isn't seriously considered. Since the structural account (they say) was possible to produce, no further explanation was necessary. And the collapses therefore remain the province of engineers. (Do note that the article right now makes it very clear that NIST found no evidence because they weren't really looking for it.)--Thomas Basboll 23:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Assumption That Engineers Are Experts Of Controlled Demolitions (Implosions) Is False 

message: I find the Design Innovations section misleading, and I recommend that it be rewritten.
:"The WTC towers were innovative in many ways.... One of the most innovative features is the tube structural system.... The towers also made extensive use of pre-fabricated modules such as perimeter sections and floor trusses and extensively used light-weight materials.... The use of express elevators also decreased the amount of space lost to elevator shafts. The express elevators took people to "sky lobbies"...."
This is quite untrue, as the primary structural system of the World Trade Center towers was already in use at the time. Dr. Fazlur R. Khan, principal structural engineer at SOM Chicago, developed the "tube" system for high-rise construction in the early 1960s, and his more innovative variations of the concept appear in other Chicago trophy towers including the John Hancock Center (trussed tube) and shortly thereafter the Sears Tower (bundled tube). The first actual framed-tube building prototype appeared at The Plaza on Dewitt in Chicago, completed in 1965. One Shell Plaza of Houston, erected five years later, employs a tube-in-tube construction similar to the twin towers.
Further, the vertical transportation system was not unique to the World Trade Center towers. Skylobbies were a necessity due to space constraints in other landmark skyscrapers during this same time period, including the John Hancock Center, completed in 1969, and again four years later in the Sears Tower -- which was constructed almost concurrent with the World Trade Center.
Perhaps the few aspects of the superstructure (to my knowledge) that were particularly innovative included the viscoelastic damping units and the composite floor trusses. But to be accurate, these are secondary structural elements; i.e. they comprise the structural subsystem. And according to the NIST report, there was no prima facie evidence that those features directly contributed to the global collapse. On the contrary, I have seen more evidence pointing to the gypsum-based wallboard throughout the core and the hat truss connecting the core with the perimeter columns.
I believe that touting the World Trade Center as so remarkably unique and ahead of its time in these regards is precisely what contributes to the public's mistaken notion that their design was unsafe and untested, and thus inherently flawed. In reality that was far from the case. Supertall buildings in the United States erected during the 1960s and 1970s were primarily based on a tubular system, and most exhibited one form or another of structural expressionism. To be more correct, the World Trade Center towers were current and contemporary with principles of high-rise design of the day.
--Rkrause 00:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me, and feel free to make alterations as you see this article may need. The current wording of that section is to be questioned. No doubt, a number of tall buildings in Chicago also used the Tube-in-tube design...I believe one was completed several years before the WTC towers were.--MONGO 17:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Innovative Design 

message: I've had a go at describing the collapses a bit more clearly, and added a very good picture of the south tower in mid collapse. I think it can be alot better, and encourage improvements. Feel free to find a way to write that parenthetical "bombs" out of, but keep in mind that many people did say it (in effect) "it sounded like bombs going off". Also, before rejecting the word "explosive", keep in mind that the massive ejection of debris is actually inconsistent with classical controlled demolition, and is in any case a true description.--Thomas Basboll 20:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Physical description