Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Richard Wagner/Archive 4

message: We are encouraging people to write articles on these. But who do we want to have under the project? 
Do we want specific categories i.e :Category:Wagnerian singers, conductors, directors etc.
I think we need to link criteria for encouraging articles from here with criteria for being under a category.
::PS and also one for Wagnerian singers, I 100% agree.--Smerus 14:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (I've refactored this, I hope you don't mind, Smerus)--Peter cohen 14:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm opposed to having a category for Wagnerian singers - or Mozart singers, Puccini singers or whatever - because it would be too difficult to define and maintain, and wouldn't be of any practical value IMO. (What I have done is work on a List of article-worthy Wagner singers.) -- Kleinzach 16:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are singers who you would expect to have a WP:Wagner tag on their talk page, then?--Peter cohen 16:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, as explained above. Also consider the enormity of the task of categorizing Wagner singers. We should not be proposing and discussing something that nobody has any intention of doing. Please note that for similar reasons the Opera Project does not categorize conductors. -- Kleinzach 02:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Peformers

message: Re-reading the comments above I find it impossible to work out who wrote what. Can we please sign comments and properly indent them so that it's all clear? Thank you. -- Kleinzach 01:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please sign and indent!

message: Now Kleinzach has "signed off" the assessment trial, it is definitely time for those of us who are here for the long term to decide what the scope of the project is.
As far as I am concerned there is an issue in that on our project page we mention Arthur Schopenhauer, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ludwig II of Bavaria, and Franz Liszt but do not include them in any of our categories and have not assessed them. SImilarly there are a large number of singers listed, but we have no category or list or assessment of Wagnerian singers. And there aralso conductors, such as Knappertsbusch, whose names scream Wagner just as much as certain of the listed singers in the subpage. So, as a project what do we consider a reasonable scope given our numbers?--Peter cohen 10:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to agree scope

message: At my suggestion Javito has design a logo which now appears on the main page. I've adapted it for a userbox, coded :
and Javito has put it on the banner, here:
Any comments? Colour balance? My own preference might be for a different background colour (i.e. not beige) for the banner. Any ideas? Thanks. -- Kleinzach 00:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jeez, he looks like he's been dredged up from the depths of the Rhine! Does it have to be that bilious green background? How about lavender - one of his favourite colours, apparently. Don't think he'd like the green and neither do I.--Dogbertd 07:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this green is a bit strong.--Peter cohen 13:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He looks like the Hulk. I agree, let's change the background colour. --Folantin 13:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I will report back to Javito and see what he comes up with. -- Kleinzach 14:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I could make a new version with other colour balance... fancy?:DJavitomad  (...tell me...) 14:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Perhaps we can also consider changing the background colour of the banner (above)? Dogbertd's suggestion of lavender for the logo might be good. -- Kleinzach 14:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Here it is:  do you like? I hope so.:DJavitomad  (...tell me...) 21:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if we could make it lighter? On my monitor it is more purple/raspberry than lavender. -- Kleinzach 00:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I think this could be very good if it were a lighter (or less saturated) shade of lavender. Looking at the chart on  I could suggest something aboutFFC CFF or FF9 9FF. Thanks for your efforts! --Dogbertd 10:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I could try... but I'm having a break for a week, so 'till then I won't work any more... you don't mind, do you?:DJavitomad  (...tell me...) 22:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. Please take your time and have an enjoyable break! -- Kleinzach 00:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Project logo by [[User:Javitomad|Javitomad]]/1

message: I have put this article up; now, does it go in the Wagner opera template or not?........Smerus 17:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Männerlist grösser als Frauenlist]]

message: Within minutes of my creating this article, it has been proposed for deletion. I believe that it can usefully be kept here with rather more information than would be in a bare dictionary definition. Opinions welcome at the talk page. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Threat now lifted. Also, apologies for typo on capitalisation.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Bayreuth canon]] 

message: An edit, by User:Polentario, in Richard Wagner claimed that Wagner's vegetarianism was linked to an anti-semitic objection to shechita. I am aware of no evidence for this and rewrote the edit, incidentally turning it into English. I asked on Talk:Richard Wagner if anyone was aware of such evidence and there was an interesting, if inconclusive, answer to my query from  Paul B. In the meantime I got the following comment from Polentario on my talk-page. He made a second edit to the Wagner page, even more convoluted than his first, which I have now also edited. I would be grateful for the opinions of others in the discussion on the Talk page.--Smerus (talk) 14:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Animal rights/Anti-Semitism

message: I came upon the above article while cleaning out :Category:Opera.  It appears to be largely the work of a single editor and is currently up for GA.  Could someone here assign any other categories that seem appropriate (Wagner studies???), and presumably it should have the Project's banner on its Talk page (where it has been suggested that the article be renamed...). GuillaumeTell 17:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've opted for :Category:Richard Wagner and have invited Brian over here.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wagner's Rhinemaidens]] 

message: As a project we don't seem to be very active. Would it be better to convert to being a Task Force of WP:WPO? That way we could legitimately have our material involved in their monthly improvement drives which, judging from discussions, may start to include attempts o get articles to GA or FA. The only significant non-operatic items in our scope I can think of are Wagner's non-operatic writings.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am keen to develop as PC suggests articles on Wagner's more important writings - but few of these are completely 'non-operatic' as PC describes them. So far there is only an article on 'Das Judentum' - but nothing on 'Opera and Drama', 'Art and Revolution', the librtetti/scenarios for 'Jesus of Nazareth' and 'Wieland the Smith', 'Mein Leben'...............Just give me a year or two to read and digest 'Oper und Drama'.................Smerus (talk) 04:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not in favour of converting this into a task force. That would create extra work (converting banners etc.) and not achieve anything IMO. It's a descendant project which is fine. --Kleinzach 11:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Task force? 

message: I have drafted out, as a trial, an article on Wagner's essay Art and Revolution, and would welcome comments as to whether this is the right sort of way to go about Wagner's essays. Please feel free to edit or tinker about with it if you wish.--Smerus (talk) 15:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job! I'm always a bit nervous about Ashton-Ellis' translations tho'. I can never work out if these essays are impenetrable because of Wagner or because of AE's translation. --Dogbertd (talk) 06:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I find both the German and the English versions interchangeably incomprehensible, but perseverance evokes some shades of meaning.--Smerus (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Advance warning! In the absence of any argument with the above, I will move the category back as a sub-cat of :Category:Richard Wagner in 24 hrs or so.Smerus (talk) 12:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Art and Revolution

message: This is a massive article which, as I have suggested on its discussion page, should perhaps be split in to three - one on Music of the Future (Zukunftsmusik), one on the New German School, one on the ADMV. At least the first two of thee topics are highly relevant to Wagner. It also needs to be translated from Deutschlish into English - I have tried to make a start on this - and to have English, rather than German, texts provide in bibliography/ies. If anyone want to take a look and comment, please do so. The anonymous (presumably German) editor who created the article seems by some of his comments on the discussion page to be a trifle sensitive!!!--Smerus (talk) 17:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In view of the overwhelming interest shown, I have begun to plough through all this myself.--Smerus (talk) 09:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[New  German School]] 

message: Hi all. I have two question. First, would operas by Siegfried Wagner fall under the scope of this project or be better at the opera project? Second, is there any interest here in creating some articles on his operas. There currently is not any coverage on his works outside of the article on the composer. See the opera corpus for a list of red linked operas.Nrswanson (talk) 07:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Operas by Siegfried Wagner

message: After doing a restoration of a recording of Caruso and Melba singing Puccini, probably the greatest Italian opera composer, I thought it was time to jump over to almost certainly the greatest German opera composer.
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg's Prize song seemed an obvious choice to start off with. However, I have access to six different recordings of it, and would like help making a short list of two or three. Over at WT:OPERA, I gave a long list of examples of what cleaning can do. I'm not going to repeat that here, but if in doubt, have a look at it, and ask me if you're uncertain.
Here are six possible prize songs. I'll be working from the .wav files due to legal necessity (the restored mp3s are copyrighted and licenced under a non-commerical licence, but I think I MAY be able to do better than them anyway.)
Give me a short list of singers from that list. I'm willing to do multiple versions, within reason - I think the song is important enough that seeing a couple different ways it could be interpreted might not go amiss - but I would ask that, in order to make the best possible choice, that the songs are chosen by consensus. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We have articles on Leo Slezak, an important singer, and Heinrich Knote - not the others. Of the recordings I prefer Knote 1906. Knote 1906 and Slezak make a good contrast in styles.  --Kleinzach 00:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither of the Knote Prize songs  are in that great of preserrvation - How about his Siegmund instead? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 08:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Die Walküre Winterstürme is good, but I thought you wanted Meistersinger? These are 1906 recordings so the quality of the recording is not all that relevant, it's the quality of the singing that counts. (Knote had a great legato line.) They are historical documents. In any case a singer biography can have more than one recording. --Kleinzach 09:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe I'm being too worried by some aspects of the UCSB restoration that I may be able to fix.  The 1912's second verse  sounds terribly distorted to me in a few places (and, given the excellent first verse, I blame the recording). The 1906 seems rather rushed, otherwise its preservation seems fine.  Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 09:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: These early recordings frequently were rushed! The singers were told to speed it up so the recording could fit on the disc. Anyway, as I said before I preferred the 1906. --Kleinzach 10:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Eh, sorry. Have a bad cold and not thinking very clearly. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but I prefer the uncleaned up version. I realize you are trying to remove the background noise (and maybe some of the distortion?) but we are also losing a bit of Slezak. Thanks - and I do think this is a worthwhile recording for WP. BTW, can we keep the discussion here and not distribute the file around a series of different pages?  --Kleinzach 00:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound restoration 

message: Thanks mainly to User:Brianboulton, there is now a featured article associated with this project. If there is a member of this project who can help either with providing sound files (within Wikipedia policy) or even sections of score showing the discussed musical extracts, that would be nice. --Peter cohen (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Rhinemaidens]] now [[WP:Featured Article]] 

message: Someone has just created a new category for 'Wagnerian singers' (only two names so far!). Is this useful? Can 'Wagnerian singers' be adequately defined? Is this a useful cat, or should we put it up for deletion? Thoughts? --Kleinzach 00:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This has now been nominated for deletion, see here. --Kleinzach 00:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And has now been deleted. --Kleinzach 00:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Wagnerian singers]]