Talk:Chögyam Trungpa

message: *Chögyam The Translator)
What about his reasons for Vajradhatu instead of Dharmadhatu?
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.213.34 (talk) 10:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.81.137 (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

text: -- 88.75.81.137 (talk) 19:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this true?

message: * can this be added somehow?
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.68.31 (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sakyong Wangmo

message: The Golden Sun of the Great East; the Root Text on How to Executre the Ashe of the Changeless Supreme Rigden, the Profound Brilliant Just Powerful All-victorious One , by Dorje Dradül of Mukpo (Hardcover - 2001)
Product Description
Shambhala Root Text. This second edition has been re-edited using, where possible, gender-inclusive language. Other amendments have been made based on a re-examination of the original Tibetan manuscript.
35 pages, Publisher: Vajradhatu Publications (2001), ASIN: B00154O998
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.200.76 (talk) 10:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Text

message: Shouldn't we add a list of translations done by Chögyam Trungpa and his group?
http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_53.html, https://isbndb.com/d/person/nalanda_translation_comm.html, http://dharma-haven.org/tibetan/teachings-ctr-students.html. Maybe it's sufficient to add the last weblink.
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.92.28 (talk) 11:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.90.230 (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.216.105 (talk) 12:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.72.5.241 (talk) 08:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, those texts contain both the original Tibetan terma as well as English translation by Rinpoche and the Nalanda Translation Committee. And gender language has been adjusted in more recent translations. They're only given out as part of Shambhala Training weekend programs (and one at the Warriors Assembly two-week long retreat) currently. I think the first one is offered once a student has gone through levels 1-5, then the three weekends called Great Eastern Sun, Windhorse, and Drala. Though I expect the exact sequence might shift somewhat over the next few years. - Owlmonkey (talk) 16:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Translations

message: *
:-- 88.75.77.67 (talk) 20:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Kalachakra

message: "Unfortunately, jealousy between sangha members is probably inevitable. It is found in almost every sangha. If you are enthusiastic about the teachings, it is natural to want to be as close as possible to the teacher."
Maybe a section jealousy around buddhist and other teachers should be added. Because -according to my judgement- people striving for common aims are not thus easily victim of jealousy, don't you think?
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.202.173 (talk) 14:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm having trouble following you.  But your suggested topic sounds like it would go somewhere else, not in the biography of one teacher. Bertport (talk) 16:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Teachers

message: It seems to me that some of the material at the top of this discussion page, though at the moment inappropriately phrased, can nevertheless be mined for useful information. For example, we could say about Shambhala training that "it is presented as a path that brings dignity, confidence, and wisdom to every facet of life" and that "the enlightened society it proposes would be led by himself as 'sakyong' (Tib. earth protector) and his wife as queen-consort or 'sakyong wangmo.'" Haiduc (talk) 00:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That would work. Bertport (talk) 13:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recycling 

message: I am concerned by the recent edits to this and the crazy wisdom article, which personalize and thus delegitimize matters that should be approached more directly. Midal's comments echo statements made by others. His status as a student does not seem to be relevant here, though it might be in other circumstances, suc as his expressing personal opinions uncorroborated by others. Haiduc (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You're correct. As long as he is accurately reporting the assessments of others, there is no need to qualify his reportage.Sylvain1972 (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legitimate? 

message: I don't understand what you are doing, nothing has been removed from the article. Haiduc (talk) 01:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert? 

message: I was OK with removing the symptoms of cirrhosis because I thought it was settled, with the final admission by Trungpa's personal physician, that he died of liver poisoning due to alcohol consumption.  Those symptoms were originally listed here because people were contending that he died of "heart failure".  But removing the actual statement by the physician reverts the article to an unacceptable state of saying "he died of heart failure".  Therefore, I have restored a version that presented the full story of the cause of death. Bertport (talk) 01:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No such edit intended. I will check. Haiduc (talk) 01:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "He had chronic liver disease related to his alcohol intake over many years." It is there. What are you talking about? Please restore my work, I was not done. Haiduc (talk) 01:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

text: There is no denial whatsoever. If his doctor says he died of cirrhosis, that is it. It is there in the Death section. But I looked at a whole bunch of other articles on lamas, and did not find a single one that lists the cause of death in the lede. I do not think it belongs there, all the more so when we have two sections below that discuss it, the Death section and the Controversies section. Talk about beating a horse to death! Haiduc (talk) 02:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

text: No intention at all of removing anything definitive, I may have done it inadvertently as I was doing a lot of very quick edits. Feel free to  put that back in, or I will be happy to do it. But I will not agree with putting the cause of death back in the lede. You are beating people over the head with it, there is no need. Three times is overkill. Two times is too many, but I can let that pass. But I have to point out that there is a vindictive quality to this article that has troubled me from the get-go, and you have reinforced my suspicions with your statement that we have to put the cause of death in the lede because it has been denied by his students. Who are you getting back at?! Are you punishing his students for being in denial??? I was in the process of working some material on his controversial history into the lede, in the last para, when you trashed my work. Let me finish what I was doing and then we can discuss. Please restore it, I do not want to do it myself. Haiduc (talk) 03:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I will continue the revisions and expansion from where I left off. At the same time I will ask you, if you have an objection, to first discuss things. I have no appetite for conflict, and I think you and I can resolve anything through dialogue, if the experiences of the last week are any guide. Haiduc (talk) 10:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cause of death 

message: "Inhis public and private teachings he wove in what he called the Mother, who 'safeguards against the development of ego's impulses".
Trungpa 1973 a, 23  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.23.189 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Chögyam Trungpa 

message: Trungpa 1973 a, 23
*http://yoniversum.nl/dakini/dakini1.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.23.189 (talk) 12:46, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: --88.72.23.189 (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trungpa on Dakini 

message: Wikiwhip (talk)  has questioned if this is truly an unreliable source.  He did not post the  this unreliable source. This "book" is actually only a PDF file that the creator previously spammed on dozens of wikipedia articles until he got blocked. He even tried to write an article for his pdf file! --Peter Jackson Biddulph (talk) 20:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Peter Jackson Biddulph that this is not a reliable source.  There is plenty of other reliable material which can (and is) cited which makes clear the nature of Trungpa... this cite is unnecessary.  I have to personally agree that Trungpa was something of a scoundrel, and I personally enjoy seeing him exposed.  That, however, does not require the use of such a shaky source. Marteau (talk) 04:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

text: Also, the length of time that citation has been here is completely irrelevant.  As is PJB's motivation.  He may well be trying to protect Trungpa's reputation... I have no idea... but it does not really matter WHAT his motivation is... only that this source is very weak.  Marteau (talk) 04:53, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree this is not a reliable source. The author has no relevant academic background or credentials, and the publication itself is peculiarly unbalanced and agenda-driven, more like the outpourings of spiritual neurosis than objective assessments. Contrary to what has has been said above, it has been published as a book since 2009. Even though it has been around for a long time, it has the notably poor Amazon rank of 1,600,000. Trungpa's oddities, from peccadillos to the dark side, are properly documented elsewhere, and there is no need to use this, rather scurrilous source. --Epipelagic (talk) 05:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

text: In addition to not being a reliable source, the content itself of the pdf file or print to order book is also not reliable, as detailed here. --81.100.47.239 (talk) 07:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

text: WikiWhip doesn't have to "concede this source is unreliable or offer up evidence of this author's status as an expert...". The absence of a coherent response from WikiWhip is enough to establish a clear consensus here that the source is unreliable, and you are starting to beat a dead horse. --Epipelagic (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreliable source: Stripping the Guru's chapter on Trungpa Rinpoche 

message: This passport image shows his birthdate as Feb 19, 1939. This article says Feb 28. Is there evidence of Feb 28 as his actual birthdate?
http://ginsbergblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/chogyam-trungpas-paranirvana.html
Avibodha (talk) 06:16, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth Date 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: What would be the reason to refer to Trungpa's wife as "Lady"? This is an English title of nobility. If she was referred as such in Trungpa's group, I do not see any reason to use it in an encyclopedic context. --Bernardoni (talk) 19:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lady" Diana Mukpo 

message: I have heard that Trungpa attributed the crash to the action of his personal protector deity, Ekajati. He was reluctant to disrobe and abandon the protection that monkhood afforded him; the crash was her emphatic message to him. Shortly after the crash, he first disrobed, then emigrated.
Incidentally, Ekajati is quite a scary figure - one eye, one tooth, one breast, one leg. In the circles in which I once moved, it was considered dangerous to mention her name. MrDemeanour (talk) 15:36, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dumfries joke-shop crash 

message: Your message to me indicates that you did not read the citation the poster is referring to. Twice, the poster uses the term 'sexual predation' or 'predator' but that is entirely unrelated to the citation, which only discusses abuses of the STUDENTS of Chogyam Trungpa. This is an important issue to thousands of people and to extrapolate a buddhist lama's activity by that of his students is illogical.
I have no problem if the poster can find a verifiable source of 'sexual predation', but as of this writing, I have not seen this. I would like to continue to curate this page as this issue is one of heated emotions, and this often results in rumors and hearsay.
Thank you. Brad — Preceding unsigned comment added by Illusionsgame (talk • contribs) 11:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Brad, thank you for your message. I've moved the discussion here - to the article's talk page where other editors will see it for consensus. Content in the article regarding his sexual behaviors goes back to at least 2009. I happen to agree with you that having the words "sexual predator" in the lead section is heavy handed. However I do think that this behavior has been well documented over the years, and it belongs in the "Controversy" section, along with verifiable reliable sources. Just so you know, I was not the editor who originally added it, however I doubt it was added in bad faith, but rather to achieve balance and a neutral point of view. Regarding: , we don't really do that except for brand new articles. There is a policy that says that no one owns content on Wikipedia, see "Ownership of content" WP:OWN. Best wishes to you and thanks again for reaching out for discussion. Netherzone (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chogyam Tungpa rumors 

message: I've added a citation for Trungpa's attendance at St. Antony's. 
I've known two people who met him while he was a student at Oxford in the sixties (Rigdzin Shikpo and Alf Vial). I've so far failed to get confirmation from the college; but even if I did get confirmation, that would be WP:OR. The citation doesn't say he was a member of the college (i.e. matriculated to study for a degree). Perhaps he just did some courses. 
MrDemeanour (talk) 13:12, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  St. Antony's 

message: I suggest that Karmê Chöling be merged to this article. It is currently a promotional-sounding puff-piece, and both articles would benefit from the context that is here. Outside of its association with Chögyam Trungpa, it's not particularly notable on its own.  Joyous! Noise! 17:42, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the Karme Choling page is a puff piece, as are most of the Shambhala pages.  However, I don't think merging it here is appropriate, as it was also under the direction and administration of Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche for thirty years.  I think it would be better to either add additional information to the Karme Choling page or delete it altogether. Sopa Dodren (talk) 20:56, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: Bullet number 9 in the current notes section currently links this URL:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sexual-assaults-violent-rages-inside-dark-world-buddhist-teacher/
However, the subject of the linked news report is Sogyal Rinpoche -- an entirely different person. Moreover, it is used as the citation for this line in the current version:
He died from complications arising due to alcoholism.
Which appears to be wholly unrelated. Can we safely assume this is an incorrect or misplaced citation? Can anyone advise if there is one that should go in its place? Removing it entirely would disorder the inline citations. Benjamin Schulz (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Item in Notes Section Appears Irrelevant or Mistaken 

message: Whatever has happened, seems pretty traumatic to some individuals on this page. In my opinion, I think it’s best to forgive, so there will be less suffering. The practices taught to me from Shambhala brought by Mr  Chögyam Trungpa, even though very basic shamatha meditation, has significantly changed my life. To read everyone on this page debate what is right or not is biased. I’m sorry that some of you had to experience trauma, we all have in life. I hope someday that you all can move on and grow from this experience, and ready understand what the Shambhala teachings actually mean. Building an enlightened society. Humans are not perfect, we make mistakes. We grow from them! 2603:8001:0:7C8:5DD6:C63F:696:92E6 (talk) 14:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let it Be, and Move On 

message: As found this morning, the entry stated, “In 1963, Trungpa Rinpoche sailed to England on a P&O liner to study at St Anthony’s (sic) College, Oxford.”
Three citations were given:
1) Born in Tibet, (p. 252 of later editions) which does not refer to St Antony’s, nor indeed to any other Unniversity college at all. It is not relevant.
2) The Buddhist Handbook, John Snelling, 2011, which states, “In 1963, Trungpa Rinpoche sailed to England on a P&O liner to study at St Anthony’s College, Oxford.” This are exactly the words from the Wikipedia article. As John Snelling died in 1992, this would be the source for the words in the article. No further reference or citation is given, which is not surprising, as it is a small point which at the time would have seemed uncontroversial. The misspelling of the college name, now corrected, strongly suggests that it was drawn from the general body of Trungpa’s hagiography. It therefore, unfortunately, is without evidential value.
3) Nicholls, C., 2000, The History of St Antony’s College, Oxford, 1950–2000, p.83. “Driver"s presence brought the exotic figure of Chogyam Trungpa, a refugee Tibetan master, to the college as a member of Common Room." One might wonder what that is. Nothing is currently on St Antony’s site about the status of "member of Common Room", and it may not exist at St Antony's these days, but the assertion is not unbelievable. See eg. https://www.stx.ox.ac.uk/membership-of-common-room, or https://www.wolfson.ox.ac.uk/become-member-common-room for this status at other colleges at present. Priveleges at the second one (Wolfson) are: use of the library, sports facilities, college punts, dining facilities, use of the common room including tea and coffee, to ride on the college minibus and to apply for college accommodation including guest rooms. In brief, it is an official but entirely non-academic friendly association with the college on a largely social level used, for example, for spouses and partners (SaPs, I suppose) of actual college members.
I therefore propose that the first two citations is moved to correctly refer to the traves to England, that the second reference is removed, and that the wording of the sentence is changed from “He later said that he attended” to “and was granted "common room" access to”, as there is no citation given to show that "attendance" was Trungpa’s own claim, has most likely again been drawn from the general body of Trungpa’s hagiography.
 Alex D Wilding (talk) 12:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Status at Oxford