Talk:Baptism of Jesus

message: The introduction stating that the baptism is not the beginning of his ministry is odd.  Any ideas on making it better?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.166.78.176 (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: Was Mary, mother of Christ present at the baptism of Christ by John? The question came up in Bible 
study. The Article "Baptism of Jesus" tends to indicate no. Some one believed one of books not in 
the Bible says she was. What is the answer?
:There is certainly nothing in scripture about Mary being there, and the wording of the Gospels makes her presence seem unlikely. It is entirely possible that there are stories that placed Mary at the event, but at best these would be apocryphal. - SimonP 04:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The gospels are not a record of the event, they are a variety of written versions of older written/spoken sources, and they post-date any events that may have happened by many decades. Whether of not the Gospels do or do not have anything in them can not lead us to conclude that something did or did not happen in the historic past. --IseeEwe (talk) 04:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary 

message: The name Harry Anderson in the caption for the artwork links to a wiki article on a Harry Anderson, but the article seems to be on an entirely different Harry Anderson who was born in 1952, not the artist Harry Anderson who was born in 1906 referenced here ( http://www.christcenteredmall.com/stores/art/anderson/anderson_biography.htm ), who would seem to be the Harry Anderson in question who did this artwork. Could this be fixed? I'm going to unlink the article from Harry Anderson's name in the caption for the artwork for now.
Twilight 15:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harry Anderson Baptism of Jesus artwork... 

message: I tried to shift the language towards NPOV where possible: changing "most"s to "some"s, for example, when different schools of thought are clearly in conflict.  If any changes are objectionable, please indicate below.  I have also tried to remove or qualify uncited speculations (e.g., that Luke's "crowd" did not respond to the voice of God from the heavens -- since the pericope ends, we have no indication of the crowd's response!).  Again, if this needs discussion please indicate below.
Also (to those writing articles of this nature), please use a first initial for E.(duard) Schweizer to distinguish him from both Alexander Schweizer and the far better-known Albert Schweitzer, sometimes spelled 'Schwiezer.' jrcagle 19:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits -- RFC 

message: The long section on John the Baptist should be summarized since that material is already (or should be) covered on the John the Baptist page. Jonathan Tweet 03:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  John the Baptist 

message: I added reference to historical opinion on the baptism. This is one event that even skeptics admit is true. Since it stands out as one of few events that even more skeptical historians give credit to, that deserves a mention. Jonathan Tweet 01:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reader deserves to know that this event stands out from other Gospel events as getting lots of credit from historians. Lima doesn't like the idea that historians agree on the historicity of few events in Jesus' life so he deleted that information from the lead. I could scrounge up a reference myself, but I'm tired of Lima following me from page to page and messing with my edits. Is there anyone else out there who can help out with a reference? Jonathan Tweet 14:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These are not the opinions of historians, they are the opinions of individuals who study Christianity, Christians, priests and theologians. There are no reliable sources for as vague a notion as the one proposed, that "even skeptics(sic) admit is true", or "even more skeptical (sic) historians give credit to". The range of stories about Jesus is broad beyond imagining. About the most we can say is that there are some specific sections of some of the early gospels that are probably more or less untouched, or come from another earlier common source. BUT, in the end they are still a written record by extremely subjective authors, not a photograph or video or first hand account by a pagan Roman. There is NO third party, disinterested, verifiable, archaeologically supported, historic proof of Jesus, outside of a very scant few highly diverse, non-linear, garbled, repeatedly edited, writings by the "Christian" faithful -which are not reliable. --IseeEwe (talk) 04:41, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  historical perspective: yes, it's historical 

message: A well-meaning editor added "embarrassment" to the criteria of "multiple attestation" and "dissimilarity." Unfortunately, the criteria of embarrassment and dissimilarity are essentially the same. I'd fix it myself, but I'm in a dispute with this editor at Purgatory, so I'd rather not mess with it if I could avoid it. Jonathan Tweet 00:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The criteria in question are indeed essentially the same.  There is a Wikipedia article on "embarrassment", but, I think, none of "dissimilarity".  The dispute you raised elsewhere is surely no reason why you should not work here or elsewhere in accordance with Wikipedia rules (including that about verifiability).  Please go ahead.  Lima 04:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, the definitions of dissimilarity, discontinuity, embarrassment, and contradiction are so hard to get straight that I'm not sure whether this page should be referring to the criterion of "dissimilarity" or "embarrassment." Jonathan Tweet 03:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I said: Go ahead.  Not: Go back.  Reverting is not a way to cooperate to solve a problem.  Lima 04:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote from the Gospel of the Hebrews is relevant in its own right and should go in the "noncanonical" section. The commentary on the quote doesn't seem to rise to the level of notability, though maybe it would go on the Gospel of the Hebrews page. Jonathan Tweet 14:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  dissimilarity and embarrassment 

message: If this baptism ritual is so important, why is there no mention of its purpose?  Why were people being baptised by John at this time?  Whas is an egyptian ritual?  Was it a greek mystery?  Some explanation is required. Mike0001 11:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The second sentence of the article states, "In [the synoptic gospel accounts], John the Baptist preaches ... baptism for the forgiveness of sins" which seems relatively straightforward to me.  A note in my Bible translation (New American Bible, footnote to Matthew 3:6) states, "Ritual washing was practiced by various groups in Palestine between 150 B.C. and A.D. 250. John's baptism may have been related to the purificatory washings of the Essenes at Qumran." -- MatthewDBA 12:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is one take on it. Catholics perceive it largely as the ritual of initiation into the church -from which other possibilities flow -such as the other dependent sacraments, and eventually salvation, etc... This whole discussion is oversimplified to the point where it doesn't make any sense. --IseeEwe (talk) 04:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:   The point of baptism 

message: This section is overlong, and I see the reason why; paragraphs 3 to 13 are written like a sort of essay, completely wrong tone, etc. I, personally, found nothing in it worth of inclusion, but it's such a large block of text that I thought I'd get people's opinions before excising it. Dr. eXtreme 18:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section "Jesus' baptism" 

message: Since the oldest version of the page uses American spellings ("baptize", "pedobaptism", "fulfill" rather than "baptise", "paedobaptism", "fulfil"), and since the topic is not closely associated with any English-speaking country, I have restored consistent American spellings in the article and added the  tag above. —Angr 08:39, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it might not be clear, but as the original creator of that oldest version, I would have used Canadian spelling. I would thus write baptize but also favourably and centre. Baptise is also a valid Canadian spelling, so I don't think there was any need to change that. - SimonP (talk) 12:06, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How do Canadians spell p(a)edobaptism and fulfil(l), though? For both of those you used what look to me like US spellings. +Angr 12:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Fulfill" was in a faithfully rendered quotation (as were possibly all the cases of "baptize").  In British and, I presume, Canadian spelling, both the ae and the e forms are certainly admitted in words like - here I will use the unique US spelling, though it permits confusion between words derived from Greek παῖς, παιδός and words derived from Latin pes, pedis - pederast, pederasty, pediatrician, pediatrics, pediatrist; and the e form is the only form used in words like pedagogy.  So I see no reason to consider the e form in pedobaptism as an exclusively US spelling.  The WP:RETAIN rule says that, not the original spelling, but whatever spelling style has established itself should be retained.  It seems that in this article the presence of favourably and centre may indicate that the non-US spelling had prevailed. Perhaps the only exclusively US spellings were in quotations.  I suspect that SimonP's position is the correct one.  Soidi (talk) 14:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Fulfill" was in a quotation from the Bible, so "faithful rendering" depends on which translation was used. (And anyway, Google shows that "fulfill" is 6 times more common than "fulfil" on sites in the .ca domain.) "Baptize" wasn't used in any quotations at all. Anyway, I don't mind moving back to SimonP's Canadian spellings (baptize, favourably, centre); the point is that the page should be consistent, which it wasn't before my edits - it had a mixture of "baptise" and "baptize", "favourably" and "favor", and so on. +Angr 15:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Thank you, that resolves everything. - SimonP (talk) 20:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: We don't seem to mention this rather notable aspect of the Gospel narratives at all, despite a great deal of no doubt learned wittering on about other matters! Johnbod (talk) 04:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voice of God 

message: The article on the Baptism of Jesus makes the claim that the Baptism of Jesus Christ is not included in the Book of John. 
This claim does not seem correct when one studies John 1:29-34:
The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.  This is He of whom I said, After me comes a man which is preferred before me: for He was before me.  And I knew Him not: but that He should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove,* and it abode upon Him.  And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Unto whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He whith baptizeth with the Holy Spirit.  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. 
* Spirit descending from heaven like a dove is recorded as happening at the Baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ in the account of the Baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, and Luke 3:22. 
** The relationship of Jesus Christ as the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit is found in the texts of Christ's Baptism in Matthew 3:11, and Mark 1:8.
That the Baptism of Jesus Christ is found in all Gospels is important.  The reason for the Baptism of Jesus Christ is found in Christ's to John the Baptist conversation in Matthew 3:15 - "But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."  Jesus Christ is setting an example for Christians to follow.  Not only is the idea of Water Baptism found in the texts of the Gospels on Christ's Baptism, also the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Suffering is also included.  The Lord Jesus Christ desires a Chistian to be Baptised in Water, Baptized in the Holy Spirit, and Baptized with the suffering that a Christian is likely to go through in this world.  On this Pentecost Sunday I say look to the Baptizer of the Holy Spirit in order to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit, (...the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit.) 
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Easeltine (talk • contribs) 14:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Baptism of Jesus mentioned in the Gospel according to John

message: The gospel writer does not directly describe the baptism of Jesus. He describes John the Baptist talking about the events that occurred at the baptism. But even the Baptist is not directly quoted as referring to Jesus' baptism - he talks about his own mission to baptize, and to be the instrument of Jesus' being revealed to Israel. He talks about the Holy Spirit coming down on Jesus. And there can be no doubt that even though the Baptist doesn't directly say (in the text) "I baptized Jesus", the gospel writer expected the reader to know and understand that John was talking about what happened when Jesus was baptized. The baptism of Jesus is taken for granted, and not mentioned
Nor does the phrase "the next day" mean "the day after Jesus' baptism". How can it, when the preceding passage (verses 19 to 28) doesn't mention the baptism at all? "The next day" means, in this context, "The day after the conversation with the priests and Levites from Jerusalem." 
Verse 43 talks of Jesus' decision two days later to go to Galilee, which intention he carries out in chapter 2. If John is talking about the baptism the day after it happened, then this account of a the journey to Galilee contradicts the Synoptic Gospel accounts of Jesus going into the wilderness for 40 days and nights. You may be happy to let the assumed contradiction stand. But the contradiction disappears if we assume that verses 29 to 34 refer to something that happened after Jesus returned from the wilderness, six weeks after the baptism.
Koro Neil (talk) 09:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: There is no '''narrative''' of Jesus' baptism in John's gospel

message: "Erasmus' 1516 translation and commentary (in Latin) became the first to use "repentance" (in Latin, paenitentia?) rather than "penitence" (in Latin, paenitentia?)."
So... Erasmus, writing in Latin, used the word paenitentia instead of ... the word paenitentia. ???
Oops, this was me Vultur (talk) 04:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentence that doesn't make sense

message: A few WP:OR cn tags were added to this section now, and I think rightly so. In any case, the arguments presented therein and the Gosp of Heb etc. are all rather lukewarm, compared to the more solid Josephus reference (already mentioned further up in the article). I think those need to get axed and replaced by Josephus which is usually used to establish historicity in its own right, the links being Acts 10:37-38, and Antiquities of the Jews 18.5.2. History2007 (talk) 06:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me, I was tempted to axe it myself. Dougweller (talk) 11:04, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, let us wait another day and if no other comments I will do it, and clean up a couple of the large images that get in the way of the text. History2007 (talk) 15:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: On that note, now that I have actually looked through here, there are large pieces of text with no source and many of them with sweeping generalizations. And some statements that can have excellent WP:RS sources instead use local websites like this. I think those need to get cleaned out too. History2007 (talk) 10:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a note here that those issues have been cleaned up. History2007 (talk) 17:59, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Historicity section

message: This phrase keeps popping up in all the historicity and related articles in dealing with Jesus, but I can't find the actual reference to any poll or data point taken by scholars. It's just an assumption, and worse, a biased one at that. I call for its removal.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Positronics (talk • contribs) 01:18, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What section/sentence are you specifically referencing? Ckruschke (talk) 13:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

text: And what change would you propose instead of "most modern scholars agree"? HectorMoffet (talk) 20:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

text: The introduction uses the phrase "modern theologians", but in the Historicity section the phrases "Most modern scholars", "overwhelming majority of modern scholars", "almost all modern scholars" and "most scholars" are used. These are all clearly subjective phrases with no reference to any evidence. As to replacements, why the need to refer to "scholars" at all, why should the number of students who may or not believe in something be of relevance in this article? Markb (talk) 08:42, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most modern scholars agree? 

message: This article is a mess. Is this article a book report on the biblical stories of Jesus, a look at the baptism story from differing faith perspectives, an historical study of Jesus, or an exegesis? Right now the article is a mess. It is not neutral, verifiable, coherent, clear, focused or comprehensive. The reliability is highly questionable. Dunn is a theologian, not a historian or archaeologist. Harrington a priest and again, not a historian or archaeologist. Most references relate to scholars from a religious perspective investigating the biblical Jesus, not to historians or archaeologists investigating the physical/historical record. Assertions of the "historicity" of Jesus, by Christian priests and theologians, is not reliable or neutral. This article should be a straight up exegesis, an explanation of the various Christian beliefs of this story, or scrapped until it is written by an historian or archaeologist. It cannot be all three in one. --IseeEwe (talk) 04:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the editorial position ?? 

message: The claim that "Based on this criterion, given that John baptised for the remission of sins, and Jesus was viewed as without sin, the invention of this story would have served no purpose, and would have been an embarrassment given that it positioned John above Jesus" seems somewhat misleading, or at the very least, not properly challenged with a balancing view.
There are indeed reasons why the story might be 'invented', for example:
* Some fashion of anointing was required in the narrative.
* A display of humility, similar to 'Jesus washing the disciples' feet'.
Whilst it may be the case that a particular Jewish person was indeed baptised by John, it certainly is not the case that there is 'no reason to invent it'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tone re historicity of baptism 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Baptism of Jesus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120716141128/http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000322_al-maghtas_en.html to http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000322_al-maghtas_en.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:15, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Reference number 9 in this article right now is to something in Cyrillic. If any kind person can read it, it would be helpful if we get a translation, and maybe some kind of indication of whether this website is a reliable source or something more personal-blog-like. Alephb (talk) 19:57, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian? (Bulgarian?) Website 

message: This is a clear distortion and assertion of a counterfactual, i.e. that most/all modern secular scholars view this as historical. I expected the §, to say that Josephus or somesuch had attested to the fact but there's no such thing, so it's just a surmise that is asserted as a probable historical fact. For a contemporary comparison, the death of Octavian on 19 August 14 is a historical fact, that Livia poisoned him has about the same support as this assertion. 98.4.103.219 (talk) 00:11, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Just noticed the thread above and the apparent premature declaration of a resolution, presumably by someone who thinks religious sources are sufficient. 98.4.103.219 (talk) 02:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

text: Further, it's an absurd embarrassment and illogical statement for this to be on the front page when the truth is that it's only the case that most serious, secular scholars accept that there probably was actually a person upon which the Christ myth is based (unlike John the Baptist who is historically attested) but that not a single fact establishes his historicity, it in fact is nil. Therefore it cannot be the case that a specific incident in a such an individual's life has historicity. 98.4.103.219 (talk) 02:20, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The front page blurb has addressed this by specifying the authorities as religious. 98.4.103.219 (talk) 02:25, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historicity