Talk:The Music Man

message: Regrettably, the Glossary of terms and names used in "The Music Man", apart from the introductory paragraph, appears to have been copied directly from http://www.doggedresearch.com/wilson/glossary.htm . I've deleted it. Please don't reinsert it.
:Yes, per WP:COPYRIGHT since doing so is copyvio, and per WP:RS because random blogs are not reliable sources to begin with. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 07:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moot issue. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 07:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Well in case you're still curious, Chaucer, Rabelais, and Balzac are the three authors the town's ladies mentionen when stating that Marion advocates "dirty books". 75.185.161.15 (talk) 17:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glossary 

message: In the glossary, it lists some cultural references from the period of the play's setting, but also includes Chaucer, who is hardly from the early 1900's.  Show it be removed, or is there some other reason it's mentioned?
:Moot issue. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 07:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well in case you're still curious, Chaucer, Rabelais, and Balzac are the three authors the town's ladies mentionen when stating that Marion advocates "dirty books". 75.185.161.15 (talk) 17:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Time Period

message: I think it would be prudent to include a list of noteworthy actors who have played the lead roles on Broadway as many other musical listings do.
CrashCart9 21:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed! — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 07:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actors 

message: We need more song sub-articles; there are only four, and "Trouble" positively screams for its own article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 07:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need more song articles 

message: I think the plot summary could be expanded, especially regarding song placement. I'll edit and expand it as necessary unless anyone has any significant objections.MarianKroy (talk) 15:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  That would be great!  Please break it into acts like so:
;Act I
;Act II
Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

text: LOL.  You need to click on "remember me" when you log-in.  Yes, it's 'way too long.  Can you slim it down by about 50%?  Sorry!  We usually shoot for a maximum of about 1,000 words.  The other ones you worked on are a perfect length.  Thanks!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded Plot Summary 

message: The article needs more background: How did the show come to be conceived and written, and what happened during the genesis.  Also, needs more critical reception and more description of the major productions.  Good work so far!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added some more background information about the show's development.MarianKroy (talk) 03:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I added three citations today for the information I added yesterday.MarianKroy (talk) 23:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

text: If you want to take on a dirty job next, try to reorganize and rewrite the "In Popular culture" section into narrative paragraphs that explain how these disparate items are significant to the musical and show that the musical is important in our culture.  This is a difficult job.  If you want to see an example of how I have done it in the past (in this case, there was so much of it that I made a separate article of it), see: Cultural influence of Gilbert and Sullivan.  Also, don't be afraid to delete something if you think it just isn't notable and does not add to the article.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better.  If you can add any references, that would be even better. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I tried to turn the popular culture section into a better paragraph. I deleted some things and moved others to the movie article. It's not great, so I'll probably return to working on it later.24.16.111.20 (talk) 09:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article improvement

message: There are at least *two* major "Music Man" references in Family Guy, which should be included in the popular references section.  I don't remember which episodes, but there's one where Lois and Brian do a spot-on parody of the piano lesson song, and there's another where Peter joins the New England Patriots, and, after scoring a touchdown, as a touchdown celebration, does a *complete* version of Shipoopi, complete with all the choreography and everything (it was amazing!).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.111.20 (talk) 09:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  References in Family Guy 

message: The festivities taking place in the gym really do occur on Independence Day. In the original script, Mayor Shinn announces, "As Mayor of River City I welcome you River Citizians to the Fourth of July exercises set up for the indoors here in Madison Gymnasium...". MarianKroy (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See, for example, this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Independence Day

message: I don't mean to completely bash the character list, but I would like to rewrite some of the character descriptions. I think they are somewhat inaccurate, both factually and to the spirit of the show. I'm very familiar with the show; I'd like to create some better descriptions if no one objects. MarianKroy (talk) 17:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it.  Just remember that plot info should be in the Synopsis, while the character descriptions should be as short as possible, just to quickly give the relationships among the characters.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't mean to insult the user who did this, but someone shorten all of the chracter descriptions. While some of them, espeacially the mayor's, needed to be shorten, all of them should not have been shorten as much as they were. They should have at least metioned in the talk page first.--JDDJS (talk) 17:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Character List

message: I have moved this article up to C-class. My rationale for moving it up to C-class was: there is a fair amount of background information, fairly substantial information about various productions and awards, a good synopsis, and an accurate song list.  These seem to be the strongest points of the article, and I hope to improve the rest of it to warrant a B-class rating eventually. MarianKroy (talk) 18:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I suppose it's just about a C.  But, the intro is too short.  It should give an overview of the whole article.  See WP:LEAD.  There's no Critical reception section, and there's that ugly list of unreferenced TV shows at the bottom.  Information about a show's cultural importance should not just be a list of TV shows that refer to the show.  However, I applaud you for jumping in to be an early adapter of the new "C-Class"!  :)  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Now the article is my definition of a "C-Class" article.  It has nearly all the important sections in it, but some of them need expansion/better referencing to become a B.  I suppose that a B-class article would also have some textual and musical analysis.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: C-class Rationale

message: No, I'm not discussing the Simpsons and Family Guy. I'm in a production of The Music Man right now, and our director enjoys explaining various terms mentioned in The Music Man that are unfamiliar to us today. I thought I could possibly either add some of that to the song pages or the main page, possibly as part of textual analysis or something. Maybe I could create the Trouble page and include information about Dan-Patch, Beevo, Captain Billy's Whiz-Bang, and such. Is this ok?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarianKroy (talk • contribs) 13:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is my first activity in Wikipedia, hope I am doing this in the right place, etc.  The Cultural References section mentions invoking turn of the 19th century at Disneyland.  I think 20th century was intended, no?
Slputian2000 (talk) 18:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural Allusions in The Music Man

message: In the plot description I have replaced sentences which described Harold Hill's scam as involving his collection of prepayment for the instruments and then skipping town without delivering. In both the original movie and the 1958 book of the play (more salient to this article), Hill does not collect full payment until the instruments and uniforms are delivered. (He does, however, take a deposit, in one case $7, which was probably worth something at the time!)  His intent, and what he is accused of by Charlie the anvil salesman, is to skip town after the instruments arrive but without forming the band (though as things play out, he sticks around). This distinction is of some significance, because the play doesn't revolve around whether Hill rips off the townsfolk over material goods, but rather around the merits (or otherwise) of his social and psychological impact on the town. Gwideman (talk) 09:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Issue of pre-payment of instruments

message: I think the second paragraph of the "Setting" section would be better described as anachronisms or mistakes, but I wanted to get consensus before I changed anything.  Also, I'm reasonably sure the telegram from Hector Berlioz was not a mistake, but a deliberate inclusion by Meredith Willson (remember, Harold Hill didn't really know as much about music as he claimed).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBigFish (talk • contribs) 20:01, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Setting 

message: IP 173.2.226.91 has changed the Musical numbers several times; I have reverted and today asked for references, and pointed out some of my concerns, on the IP's talk page. Generally, I think that the Musical numbers should be referenced per the policies and guidelines in WP:VERIFY and WP:RS, although the list need not have a specific in-line citation. (Thus, where requested, an editor should supply references,particularly when editing a long-standing, stable list.) The reference I have used for the list is the Internet Broadway Database listing; while not perfect (I suppose the actual score would be the ultimate perfect source)I used the acual score to change it and the you reverted it, it is, I believe, considered an acceptable WP:RS for Musical theatre articles. 
:Specifics of the key IP changes I question: (1) I have found, in several sources, an alternate title for "Pickalittle", which includes, in parenthesis (one source) the "Talk-a-Little" and have so included. (2) I find no reference for including the "Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean" in the song list, except for one source that describes the July 4 pageant (Act 2) where Mrs. Shinn sings the song (although I think it is not the entire song). Even if it is not the entire song it nshould be in the song list (3) I find no reference that shows that Amaryllis is NOT in the "Piano Lesson"  song but IS in "Goodnight, My Someone". Have you ever seen the show? (4) I find no reason to delete the song "Gary, Indiana" from the Synopsis, I think it is in the right place and sung by the right character. No "Gary Indiana" is not sung untill Act 2 yet it was put in Act 1. JeanColumbia (talk) 11:56, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am aware of the WP:3RR rule and will no longer edit this article. Also, to answer the IP's question, I have seen the The Music Man 3 times, all on Broadway--the original twice (in approximately November-December 1960) and the revival (about in the Spring of 2000) once. (Thank you for your courtesy in replying -- and for your interest in my theatre-going).JeanColumbia (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Dear IP editor.  I have reverted your changes for now.  If you convince Jean that they are OK, I will follow her lead, but I regard her as an expert.  Please establish an account.  See WP:WHY.  To learn about citation format, see WP:CITE.  See also WP:RS.  Let's discuss this with Jean tomorrow, but you will be more successful if you state your reasons for changes before reverting other editors.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:14, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the confidence in me, but I think it's best if I no longer edit this article, I am not interested in the drama. (I prefer my drama on stage :D) Proceed, smart editors, without me, but do remember my golden words: verify WP:VERIFY, source WP:RS, and yes, be WP:CIVIL. Best, JeanColumbia (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Fixed, thanks.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Good. Thanks for the note.  Well done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

text: I wouldn't make that change to the song list, because we do not have a good reference for it.  Frankly, I am not exactly clear about what you are saying, but if you can suggest a note to add to the notes to explain this, perhaps we can agree on a concise note.  But remember that this article is only intended to describe the most important points - we should not distract the reader's attention by describing relatively minor details.  I'm happy to work with you further, however, to improve the article.  I'm going to leave you some helpful tips on your talk page.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually 173.2.226.91 is correct that those musical numbers overlap in the show. For example, the women perform "Pickalittle". Then the quartet/Harold Hill sings "Goodnight Ladies". But then the two songs are sung together overlapping each other. Overlapping is also done in the other numbers he/she mentioned. I've done this show several times in professional productions in Tulsa, Philadelphia, Seattle, and Miami in various roles. I've probably given about 150 performances of the show so I pretty much have every song and line memorized. lol The funny thing is I can't remember how the programs annotate the song lists off hand. Whatever the traditional program annotation/sources provides is probably what we should present here. I would look at my recordings but I bought them on i-tunes so I don't have the benefit of a flip jacket.4meter4 (talk) 23:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Musical numbers

message: I have decided to take your advise and make an acount JDDJS (talk) 17:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good.  I think you will find it much more convenient to edit using your own account, and everyone else will be more comfortable communicating with you.  Please note that an important point of Wikipedia ettiquette is not to edit another user's user page.  You should talk on their talk page, but everyone manages their own user pages.  All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: New account

message: FYI, I will be removing what I consider to be trivial pop culture references. As there is a banner above the Pop Culture section suggesting that this be done, I think I have reasonable prerogative to do this. I admit that it's a little subjective, but it really needs to be done. MarianKroy (talk) 00:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good choices; now the section needs refs to WP:Reliable sources that verify that the stated references are made in the shows, films, etc. mentioned.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: While we're on the subject, is Keith Olbermann referring to Glenn Beck as "Harold Hill" really that noteworthy, and do we really need to include that here?  I'm not coming to the defense of one or the other, but the entry seems unnecessary.TheBigFish (talk) 20:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

text: It looks like all of these are blogs, which are generally not considered reliable sources, with the exception of the Slate Magazine blog (even though it's a blog, it's published by what is considered a reliable source; the policy page linked above explains it pretty well).  However, it is clear this has happened more than once, which does lend it notability.  Another source would be a good idea, as you mentioned.TheBigFish (talk) 04:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing Trivial References in Pop Culture Section

message: Huh? For some reason the Italian link of the page points to 'Capobanda' - a 1962 film having nothing to do with The Music Man. But I am a newcomer, don't know what to do to correct the problem. Any help?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.216.121.44 (talk) 19:21, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Wrong link to Italian Wikipedia

message: In the article about The Music Man 1957 play, it concluded with Harold Hill and Marian Paroo in each other's arms, [after the children play their instruments (not very well)]. In The Music Man (1962 film), after the kids play their instruments and Harold and Marian embrace, the kids are transformed into a real high school marching band, led by Professor Hill in uniform. I have seen a few stage productions of the play, and the end usually features a real (local school) band playing musical instruments very well. When did they decide to add the real (local) band to the conclusion of the stage play? Was that during it's original 1957 Broadway run, or after the 1962 movie was released?204.80.61.110 (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: When was the real band playing at the end added to the musical?

message: Someone has put the info in tables, which is fine, but they have put the Tony Awards last, and of course the Tony Awards should go first in each table.  Can someone fix this please?  If not, I'm going to remove the table format, as it makes it too hard for some editors to work with this info.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:31, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the Theatre World Awards are not mentioned or referenced in the text, so they should either be removed from the tables (they are of less importance than the Tonys anyhow) or they must be referenced in the tables.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:34, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Award tables

message: Better to either wait until the production is open and then add information about the production from a review, or you can add information before hand, if the production is previewed in a publication.  See WP:CRYSTAL. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:47, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure if it should be included anyway--it looks like a professional but regional production, and if we include every regional production of a musical, especially one as frequently performed as The Music Man, the majority of the article could be taken over by regional productions. I'm not saying there aren't cases when they should be included--i.e., when a musical starts out regionally and transfers to Broadway, or when a notable musical never makes it to Broadway(like The Baker's Wife, or when a significantly reconceived regional production determines the form of the musical for all subsequent productions (like Good News). However, I don't think there's anything about this particular production of The Music Man that makes it notable for inclusion. MarianWilde (talk) 04:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but editors have been aggressive in adding links about it.  It does have two Broadway stars in the lead roles and a reasonably long engagement.  I'm inclined to leave it here until it's old news, or until it is crowded out by a major new production.  But if you feel pretty strongly, delete it, and I'll back you up. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess maybe we should just wait it out. It looks rather self-promoting (one is even called Arena Stage Mead Center, the venue where the production will take place), but I'll leave it for now. MarianWilde (talk) 23:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: 2012 Arena Stage production

message: Song article has no references, fails WP:SONG, has no evidence of notability independent of the musical, and has only a few sentences of content.pbp 23:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the article is only a stub, the song is notable.  It is sung with great frequency by choirs.  See this and this and this and this and this and this and this.  The fact that an article is a stub is not a reason for deletion. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the solution is to expand this article rather than merge it with Music man to be frank. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Iowa Stubborn]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Jacey Squires (high tenor): livery stable owner 
Ewart Dunlop (lead tenor): grocer
Oliver Hix (baritone): banker
Olin Britt (bass): newspaper publisher
pbp 15:47, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a fun fact about these minor characters, but, in addition to its being unreferenced (See WP:V), it is probably too detailed for an encyclopedia article (See WP:BALASP), unless there are sources that explain its importance.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occupations of Quartet 

message: Hello. Today, Ssilvers reached out to me and told me that they reverted my edits on the cast table. I was under the impression that most (if not all) productions listed under "Productions" would be listed in both the infobox and cast table. This is just because I have seen it written that way on several articles about theatrical productions. However, I realize that this may be false so I wanted to hear ideas from other editors. I apologize if this sounds like a dumb question to ask others but I wanted to know a correct answer when editing in the future. Thanks, Fiscus Brady!! (talk) October 4, 2020 19:54 (UTC)
:There have been many discussions about this at the Musical Theatre project and elsewhere.  For popular musicals that have hundreds and thousands of productions, obviously you cannot include every production in the cast table.  In my opinion, the cast table should include only long-running Broadway and West End productions, plus if there was a long-running original production elsewhere (for example Little Shop of Horrors or Hair) then list that original production, or if the musical has never played on Broadway or in the West End, then the most important, long-running productions can be included in the table.  So, in this case, the very limited runs off Broadway and at the Chichester Festival should not be listed in the table. These productions were important enough, however, to be listed in the Productions section, and there the notable (blue-linked) principals should be mentioned.  And, of course, all casts mentioned must be referenced.  Tables should never list a cast without a reference. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:27, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cast Table Debate 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: Music Man was awarded the TheaterWorld award, for all 21 debuts in the cast, including Benjamin Pajak appearing as Winthrop Paroo. User:Kpajak1
:That is not exactly correct.  They received a group honorary award for "Outstanding Ensemble".  See this. I've noted it in the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:58, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Theatre World Awards 2022