Talk:Francis Schaeffer/Archive 1

message: "Similarly, critics perceive anti-semitism in Schaeffer's oft-repeated theme of a Judeo-Christian worldview."
- surely this should be expanded if it is to be either fair or meaningful? I am not familar with much criticism of Schaeffer, although I am familiar with Schaeffers works, and therefore find the claim of anti-semitism implausible. But more importantly for wikipedia, whether i was familiar with Schaeffer or not I would find it hard, without further explanation, to comprehend how advocating the importance of a "Judeo-Christian worldview" can be anti-semitic. Maybe i'm not up-to-date with the politically correct terminology, but to this humble outsider, this seems rather like saying "critics percieve an anti-European tendency in x's theme of the importance of Western Culture"- it COULD make sense in some settings, given a lot more info, but as is merely confuses! -- Ian, 01.15.06
:It is badly worded. --Cberlet 01:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried a rewording.--Cberlet 03:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find this accusation strange as well. Could you supply some reputable source(s) which make such an allegation? It seems like any exclusivistic religionist could be deemed "implicitly anti-Semitic" (or implicitly anti-Hindu or implicitly anti-Islamic or implicitly anti-Christian) if s/he set up a dichotomy as such. It seems more likely that Schaeffer was simply comparing the two most dominant (in terms of numbers or influence) worldviews in Western/American culture at the time and that, given the broader context of his writings, we could justly understand him to mean "the Judeo-Christian worldview." --Flex 14:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is actually clear in his writings that his ideal society is Christian, but I have put up a fact flag and if nobody provides a cite, then it should go.  Please give it a few days.--Cberlet 15:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't dispute that his ideal society is Christian. The question is, how does this view make him anti-Semitic but not, say, anti-Hindu? If it doesn't, then it's not worthy of note IHMO, though his broader exclusivism might be. --Flex 15:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Antisemitism?

message: The new section that starts:
"It should also be noted that well before Schaeffer started his work at L'Abri and advocated activism in the public square, many American fundamentalists and evangelicals were already committed to both a social and political form of conservatism...."
Is fascinating, but doesn't it belong on the page on the Christian Right?--Cberlet 03:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Cberlet. Also there is no reference for Fowler, hence the "citation needed" flag. --Awinger48 21:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Earlier political activism

message: User: 208.27.111.130. Please stop this campaign of unexplained deletions and rewrites that remove valid criticisms of the Christian Right and dominionism.--Cberlet 22:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unexplained deletions

message: The following promise was made last year:
:The issue is not what you think about Schaeffer, the issue is that there are a number of articles and books in print that argue Schaeffer was the intellectual godfather of Dominionism in the U.S.  You cannot delete material just because you do not like it.  I will re-insert the claims for which I can find cites.--Cberlet 16:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you objecting to the phrase "intellectual godfather?" It is not in quotes, it is not implied that Diamond or anyone else has used the phrase. It accurately sumarizes the views being cited (among many others) that Schaeffer was significantly responsible for generating the ideas that resulted in the formation of the Christian Right, especially the dominionist tendency. What phrase would you like?  "Intellectual nursemaid?" "Intellectual matchmaker?" As for Puritan (and Reformed), it is used in the context of explaining the early version of Calvinism brought to these shores by the Puritans and Pilgrims.  How would you write about this without adding two paragraphs?  The language and links helps readers understand the views of Schaeffer's critics.  I do not understand your objections. And doing word searches to make you argument makes no sense. Not every single word needs a cite--the cites have to back up the basic claims made in the text.--Cberlet 22:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on what the phrase, "considered by some critics" means on Wikipedia. It begs the question, "Who are the critics?" and it turns out that the only person who has called Schaeffer "the godfather of dominionism" is you, only in this Wikipedia article. "Godfather" is a big word. For the Common Man who uses Wikipedia, the word "Godfather" conjures up pictures of Marlon Brando, Al Pacino, and Bobby Deniro. "Godfather of Dominionism" conjures up someone who is worse than Rushdooney and the Reconstructionists. In the interest of fairness and NPOV especially, it would be much appreciated if you could somehow change this statement. Thank you and looking forward to more discussion with you :-) --Awinger48 12:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As you can see I honored your request for a cite in the Reconstructionist section. I also explained what I meant by the word basic.  Could you explain, as part of the Wikipedia article, what you meant by the word godfather please?  Thank you :-) --Awinger48 19:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As a Christian, to me a godfather is someone the parents respect and trust as a guide in moral philosophy and upstanding civic life.  That is precisely the role played by Schaeffer to the Christian Right. If I had wanted to imply "Godfather", like the Mafia, I would have capitalized the "G."  This is a petty and tiresome trivia contest, and a total waste of time.  If you despise the word "godfather", change it for God's sake. It is better than suffering the death of a thousand discussion entries.--Cberlet 23:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your definition of "godfather" above is excellent, and so is the connection you make with Schaeffer to that term. It is probably one that I would also embrace. Since this section is called "Schaeffer and the Christian Right," your statement could read, ..."a contemporary Neo-Calvinist perspective, he is considered by some to be the godfather of the Christian Right." But the term Dominionism is used throughout this section, not Christian Right. From what I've read so far in Wikipedia, Dominionism is being painted as a negative thing, even a bad thing. Considering what Reconstructionism has done, as well as other fringe extremists; in that sense I also see Dominionism as bad. So because of that, your word "godfather" conjures up bad things rather than good. You can't have a bad term, Dominionism, and expect the reader to understand your term, godfather, as something good. So I've quoted your book by calling Schaeffer "a pioneer of dominion theology" (p.255). Pioneer is a neutral term. My apologies for taking up so much of your time. Thank you for your consideration in this matter :-) --Awinger48 13:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have been on the road in Omaha, Nebraska (giving a speech on the Christian Right) and Washington, D.C. (attending a Christian Right conference). Some of us have lives outside of Wikipedia. Stop railroading this article based on your unwillingness to be patient and reasonable. You want a response? Slow down and act collectively and constructively.--Cberlet 02:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies to you Chip. I know you're a busy man. Frankly, I was looking for discussion from FeloniousMonk as much as I was looking for discussion from you because of the way he jumped into things and just said "I disagree and Chip wants to talk more" (paraphrase). I also thought that putting in a counterstatement might be more workable, balance wise, for both of us, instead of arguing over your statement. And now I see that you've done some major changes to that section. At first glance they looked very good, but after studying them more, I can see that there is more work to do.  I added the actual quote about no theocracy in the anti-abortion tactics in the Manifesto section. Now it leads right into the next section about the Reconstructionists. Hope things went well in the Omaha and DC trip. If you care to share or talk about those conferences or anything for that matter, please feel free to use the Wikipedia email function :-) --Awinger48 14:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Schaeffer as Godfather of Dominionism - Issue Still Alive One Year Later

message: This paragraph about Schaeffer, Rookmaaker, the Christian Right, and Steve Taylor was originally put in the Schaeffer and the Christian Right section at 6:23 28 December 2005 (UTC) by an Unknown Editor, except that their IP address is in the UK. Because of the controversial nature of this paragraph I am requesting a cite for this claim of fact.  If none is provided, shouldn't this paragraph be removed? Do you all see the new category that has been added, probably by an administrator, in the category section. This whole article about Schaeffer has been labeled Articles with Unsourced Statements. Shouldn't we try and fix this article and get rid of that label?  Just a suggestion :-) --Awinger48 10:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arts Program at L'Abri and ''Articles with Unsourced Statements''

message: User:Flex was correct in saying that "fundamentalist" by itself is vague and a very loaded term. Therefore the term "Christian Fundamentalist" was inserted instead. The word "premillennialist" is also important to keep in the article as long as the section on Dominionism remains. That is because the most outspoken of the Dominionists are those from the Reconstructionist movement who are postmillennial in their eschatology.  If there needs to be discussion about these two terms, I'm open :-) --Awinger48 22:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification of Fundamentalism

message: "Although A Christian Manifesto does not mention immigration as an issue, critics infer this..."
Requesting cite for this statement of fact - which critic(s) in what written work?  Or is Diamond being referred to again, and if so, why? The immigration issue was already mentioned in Diamond's quote directly above this paragraph. Just wondering :-) Thank you :-) --Awinger48 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This claim: "Although A Christian Manifesto does not mention immigration as an issue, critics infer this  from his" ...misses the point that Schaeffer is discussing philosophical pluralism, not ethnic pluralism. This will require a cite to be re-introduced. I can see how someone could make the claim, but it needs to be cited.--Cberlet 22:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Immigration Issue in Christian Manifesto Section

message: This is a request for discussion. Someone with the User name "Augustv" came in and completely rewrote this section without any discussion. At first I thought that what he or she said was correct and so I just went in and cleaned it up.  But then I realized that all major changes to material already written need to be discussed first. So I went back in a second time,left the stuff that more or less makes this section current, and reverted back to a previous version for other things. Augustv, if I'm reading the History page right, has left. There is no way to contact that person unless he or she comes back. So I am looking for feedback as to the right or wrong of what has transpired. Thanks for the input that anyone might have :-) --Awinger48 20:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Frank Schaeffer Section

message: A number of edits have introduced highly POV and dubious text into this article. Awinger48, you are right to be concerned to and raise these questions, but please note it is the end of summer and school is starting and for many editors this is not a part of the year they have time to spend editing Wikipedia.--Cberlet 22:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please slow down!