Talk:Motorcycle club/Archive 1

message: Working on removing the POV, directing the outlaw info into the motorcycle gang. The patch information is next, what is commonly worn in a club compared to gang etc et al. Mceder 09:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trying

message: Its very US centric
*needs to have an explanation of MC and MCC (road clubs and off road clubs)
*AMA bit needs to change to national governing body of something, more explanation of the governing body concept.
*needs to talk more about sport promotion - a large amount of clubs promote/run/put on events along side social activities like rides, meetings in pubs, etc
Job for the future (when i get time)Pickle 21:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: US Centric

message: Outlaw Biker World is a website that has news articles (and More) for the Motorcycle/Outlaw community. I feel a link to it from this page is appropriate. The link is 
:The link is already present as Reference #3, though it is shown as its former name, Bikernews.net.  Good idea, and thanks for the suggestion.  Mmoyer 16:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to Outlaw Biker World 

message: This section of the article is meant for truly notable clubs, either for their size, notoriety (good or otherwise), or historical significance.  Please refrain from adding your personal club to this list unless it meets this criteria.   Mmoyer 03:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Vampires MC seems like a riding club, and has only two chapters.  Not sure it meets the "notable" criteria.  Please discuss before adding. Thanks!  Mmoyer 03:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with the idea of not turning this article into a list of the thousands of motorcycle clubs worldwide, but if the club - in this case Vampires Motorcycle Club is "notable" enough that they have a wikipedia article, then who are we not to have them mentioned somewhere on this article? Alternatively, maybe the article "Vampires Motorcycle Club" should be put up for deletion is its not notably enough? - we can have on or the other option but surly not the continued existence of that clubs article, yet refuse to mention it here in this article?  --Pickle 17:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Vampires MC is not a riding club. The club has a nine-month prospect period, and new members must be patched in by unanimous club vote (i.e. not anyone can join like an RC). It also has history in California dating back to the 1950s. Must an MC must have a vast criminal record to be considered notable? You seem to be editing down the list of notable clubs to 1%ers only.Wkyirqi 18:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could find no letters "MC" on their patch (but clear photos were unavailable that I could see), I could see no info on a probationary period, their meetings are open to the public, they have only two chapters, and, despite their history from the 50's, they were defunct until that past couple of years.  They just don't seem notable to me.  The U.S. Military Veterans MC, on the other hand, is not a 1% club, has a documented probationary period, wears a highly visible MC patch, has 45 chapters in 19 states, and is 19 years old.  That seems notable to me.  I admit it's somewhat subjective, but Wiktionary defines 'notable' as "Worthy of notice; remarkable; memorable; noted or distinguished".  USMVMC meets the notable criteria by its size alone, as well as its military veteran slant.  The HA, Pagans, Mongols, Bandidos and Outlaws are notable by their reputation and size.  The Boozefighters are notable for their history in the "Hollister incident". The Wild Pigs as a law enforcement club (not 1%) with a national reputation, and so on.  Perhaps another way of looking at it is this:  Adding a club to the list should enhance the readers understanding of motorcycle clubs.  I hope this helps. Mmoyer 03:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  Regarding whether a club is notable enough to have an article: though there are limits on a persons notoriety for a bio article, I do not believe that extends beyond individual biographies.  Many small towns and villages have Wikipedia articles despite their otherwise lack of noteworthiness.   Mmoyer 03:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its really an issue of reconciling the fact we have :Category:Motorcycle clubs and List of motorcycle clubs with the article. By posing the opposite (ie why has a non notable club got an article) I'm trying to reconcile this from the other end. Mmoyer's hits the nail on the head with does the club further this article, if it doesn't then it goes to the list. Pickle 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That Vampires MC meetings are open to the public is inconsequential--many motorcycle clubs hold open meetings for visitors. The San Francisco Motorcycle Club's weekly meetings, for example, are always open to the public, and there is no question as to that club's status as a bona fide MC. The Vampires MC was not defunct until "a couple of years ago", it was defunct until 1993--that would be thirteen years. The club's website hosts a discussion forum and hundreds of pictures from rides, rallies and other events over the past 13 years, which certainly should enhance a reader's understanding of what many MCs are all about--riding and camaraderie. There are no images online of the current, complete Vampires MC patch. The graphic on the Vampires' Wiki article is just the top rocker. There is also a lower city rocker, and a separate MC patch. Finally, there is public information on the club's prospect period, you just didn't look hard enough.Wkyirqi 08:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  Abutre's MC has been added as a notable MC. The Wiki page claims they are the 3rd largest in the world. Can anyone verify that they even exist in substantial numbers in the southern hemisphere? War 2:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Quite frankly, Mmoyer, it's laughable that you unilaterally deleted SFMC and Yonkers MC from the list of notable clubs. The two oldest clubs in the country are not notable enough for you and you alone. You continue to craft this article into one solely about outlaw motorcycle clubs, and it really shows your narrow view and lack of knowledge on the subject of MCs.Wkyirqi 07:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that you are taking this all very personally.  I believe that SFMC and Yonkers MC are the two oldest clubs, but the information needs to be verifiable by external sources.  WP:V states that, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth".  I would really LOVE to see more clubs included, especially these two venerable organizations, but we are bound by Wikipedia policy. Herein lies the core problem: Most non-1% and non-outlaw clubs lack sufficient reliable source information to satisfy WP:V.  Therefore, the this article seems somewhat unbalanced.  Perhaps we can engage some administrators (hint, hint) to help us find a way to include more info.  I am open to suggestion.  Regarding SFMC and Yonkers MC, please feel free to create articles on these two clubs provided you can add references that meet WP:V, at which point they most definitely SHOULD be included in the list of notable clubs here.  You can take it as a personal challenge, perhaps (likewise with the Vampires MC).  Please do not misconstrue my motives nor impune my source knowledge and impartiality, as I am only trying to follow the rules.  Happy editing!  Mmoyer 03:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Update on Yonkers MC and SFMC.  You made me feel guilty, Wkyirqi, so I did some poking around to find a reference, updated the SFMC article, created the Yonkers MC stub, and readded them as notable.  Mmoyer 02:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable MCs 

message: Hello, List of motorcycle clubs is currently nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of motorcycle clubs. Thanks. - Denny 20:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI: [[List of motorcycle clubs]] deletion pending. 

message: I deleted the addition of the James Gang to the list of OMGs since it was not mentioned in the references I provided.  Please re-add if a reference can be cited.  Mmoyer 20:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  James Gang as OMG 

message: I have restored the deletion of the description of the Hollister brawl.  The brawl, though small, did actually occur per the supplied reference.  Given that there are numerous references to the brawl, some reference must be supplied stating that the brawl did not occur.  Thanks.  Mmoyer 02:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to know what these so-called references are, as that I don't see any on-line. I do know that there is a book available, the motorcycle club's web site, and numberous documentaries that state factually that no such riot occured. 208.34.201.223 19:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, the Boozefighters themselves (who were involved) not only claim it happened, but there is a rally there every year to commemorate the event.  I shall supply references and restate the issue when I get a moment. BTW, I have no axe to grind here.  The whole point of mentioning the brawl is that it was an isolated incident that was blown out of proportion to lead to the negative image of bikers in general.  I will be using this link from the Boozefighters national website as a ref. Mmoyer 15:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I have taken another stab at working the Hollister incident into the article.  This version calls into question whether or not there was an actual riot, and mentions the yellow journalism and staged photo for Life Magazine. Mmoyer 22:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollister Brawl