Talk:Minesweeper (video game)/Archive 1

message: It's said under "Computer implementations": "When both the left and right mouse buttons are pressed to depress nine squares, <ESC> may be pressed to start or stop the timer."
Maybe it doesn't work in my WXP (Home) implementation: I've no tbeen able to active it. (The xyzzy-cheat does =) )
A more detailed explanation (though a little different and not verified by me) can be found on http://metanoodle.com/minesweeper/subcheats.html. A rewording of it would have been my first contribution to an article, if only I could have verified it to be true (in my WXP Home)
Can someone test all this?--euyyn 19:31, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheats in MS implementations 

message: The beginning of the article says Most implementations of minesweeper "cheat" in favour of the player by ... changing the board so there are no 50-50 guess situations.
But later on (in the "Mine probabilities are not enough" section) is explicitly shows a case of 1/2 probability of mine on d, e and I've been in those situations zillions of times.
I am thinking of deleting the claim that there are no 50-50 guess situations, but maybe I misunderstood what the original writer meant. Comments? --Keeves 12:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction? 

message: I don't think I understand what is meant by "That means it is easy to check that a particular arrangement of mines corresponds to the given numbers, but it is probably hard to find such an arrangement, in some cases."  What does it mean to find an arrangement of mines and corresponding numbers?  I know this is a sticky issue to describe.
Maybe
"...it is easy to quickly and accurately check that a particular arrangement of mines corresponds to the given numbers, but hard to check any arrangement with the same accuracy and brevity."
-- 20:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually what was meant was that it is probably hard to find an arrangement of mines given the numbers. I've clarified it. --Damian Yerrick 16:38, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still unclear about the NP-complete section 

message: In the section Mine probabilities are not enough, you can reach the same solution by turning the probability approach around: if the algorithm at hand focuses on marking most probable mine spots first before clearing any squares, it will still choose the path from the number four to the right. The probability of a mine in any of a,b,c is 2/3, whereas for d,e it is 1/2. --82.181.25.86 12:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad example? 

message: At http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/ there's a Minesweeper clone which deliberately generates the mine layout in such a way that the player never has to guess.
I post this here rather than adding it straight to the links section on the actual page because, well, I'm the author and it would seem too much like self-promotion to add a link to my own website. However, since the problem of guessing in Minesweeper is generally a hot topic and authors often seem to try to mitigate it in one way or another (this page already contains a link to "LuckySweeper", for example), it seems to me that people reading the links section might genuinely be interested in a Minesweeper which guarantees to generate guess-free grids. I know I would have been (since in its absence I went to the effort of writing it!).
There's no advertising on my web pages, and the software is all free; I'm not angling to benefit financially from this link. (Neither am I looking to boost my Google-cred, since I'm also the author of more well known software and already have all the Google-cred I can eat.) I've been hesitating for months trying to work out whether even suggesting it on this talk page was too much self-promotion, but decided in the end that the worst that can happen is I get told to go away :-) 80.4.5.74 09:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks both for being so careful about self-promotion, and for writing the program and mentioning it here.  I've added it to the page. JesseW, the juggling janitor 10:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest possible extra link 

message: I once played so fast, the game crashed. It never happened before. Anyone else? -- THEBlunderbuss 10:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Program Crash 

message: Would it be okay if I threw up quick, small screenshots for some of the patterns? The wording is rather unclear and a picture says so much more. Crystallina 03:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definetly we need photos, what is the "wall", edge of game or what? Patcat88 15:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Edge of a cleared area. Crystallina 19:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More pictures? 

message: I couldn't figure out which section of links this should go in, 
but it does tell some history of minesweeper:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030102212301/http://metanoodle.com/minesweeper/donner.html
Family Guy Guy 06:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: i don't think that fair use aplies to this,ther are alredy some free screenshots.Do we deleat it?--Pixel ;-) 01:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vista_minesweeper.jpg 

message: I was reading through this section, I was a little confused by the description of how minesweeper is NP complete. I replaced the possible implications of minesweeper NP completeness with a footnote to the site detailing them. What do you guys think? MarkBuckles  (talk) 07:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NP Completeness section 

message: Since thers a zilion minesweepers, we should replace the drawings with a black and white one,so that it will resemble no one.--Pixel ;-) 11:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is definitely not a good idea. These colors are the usual colors that almost all versions of Minesweeper tend to use, even the 3D or triangular/hexagonal ones too. Just check out the images in the gallery. The background is essentially gray, the number "1" is almost always blue, the number "2" is almost always green, "3" is almost always "red", and so on. People quickly get familiarized with these colors, and will be able to recognize them more easily if the images are using colors. I tried to put in the caption of a picture the sentence "in its usual colors", but you reverted my edit. RodrigoCamargo 11:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: compare the screenshots(all) with the drawings and tell me .Wich one resebles the most with the drawings.--Pixel ;-) 12:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a matter of resembling or not. You suggested to use black and white images, and I simply said it is not a good idea, since the majority of the available versions has colors, and the majority of them show the usual colors (blue for "1", green for "2", etc). Just that. Not a matter of resembling. RodrigoCamargo 12:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Should i take this as a yes?Yes it's closer to windows then eny other.--Pixel ;-) 13:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Also the mines be replaced by an M and the font white for contrast.--Pixel ;-) 13:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That way no one is jalous.--Pixel ;-) 13:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Microsoft Minesweeper, Minesweeper on Vista, KMines, Minesweeper in Firefox, Gnome Mines, Xdémineur, both Minesweeper 3D versions, the hexagonal version, and XMines, as well as hundreds of other versions available for download use the same standard of colors: gray background, blue "1", green "2", red "3", etc. It is normal that every game developer who wants to make a new version will tend to use these same colors. So, it is very incoherent to have black and white images on the article. I disagree with that. Also, replacing the mines by an M and making the font white is, in my opinion, very anti-intuitive. I disagree with that too. RodrigoCamargo 15:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is half the story.You find it anti intuative simply because the only version you now is the MS one.--Pixel ;-) 18:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black and white images 

message: This article is about minesweeper, not microsoft minesweeper.It schould have it wone article.It's like having the coca cola article inside the cola article.--Pixel ;-) 17:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split off MS Minesweeper 

message: I have suggested that KMines be merged into Minesweeper (computer game). As per Wikipedia:Merge, the KMines article overlaps greatly with the Minesweeper article and has little it could say for itself on its own. mwazzap 09:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that kmines is part of this series of articles Kdegames.So a merge here is problematic.Do you reconcider your proposals?--Pixel ;-) 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not posible to have an article about all mineswepers.It's not possible to put all of them in the article ither.It's just too easy to wright(the programme i mean),first year students are suposed to wright a 3D version.I propose to pull all here for now(variants too) because we don't have much material.I sujest to orginize the article acording to operating systems/gui.I'm not aware of any independent minesweeper that could be considered notable.In the variant section we should put examples of different implementations,not specific programs.--Pixel ;-) 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: It's widespread because it's bundeled with windows.I wouldn't say popular.Kmines is not a stand alone programme(at my noleg),it is bundled with a paquage of games for KDE.So if we say windows blablabla,KDE blablabla,it should be good.--Pixel ;-) 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Comment. To reiterate, it does clearly qualify for 2 (arguably 3) of the four reasons for a merge listed on Wikipedia:Merge: "large overlap", "very short and cannot or should not be expanded terribly much", and (arguably) "requires the background material or context from a broader article". mwazzap 07:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However, first, it must be considered that it is not completely sure about if the KMines article really qualifies for existing. Maybe it should be deleted instead of merged. This discussion should go on the talk page of that article RodrigoCamargo 11:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge in KMines

message: Too small and ther isn't much trafic on this page.--Pixel ;-) 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal Merge variants 

message: So kmines should be exposed nowere.Can i remove your drawings from the article then(thers no concencus on them)?Whell,one of them have to be first.You can rename your drawings,if they are not drawing what are they?And they are look alike clones,why did you do them in the first place.You say that they represent every version,i say that they don't,what do you propose for the section.I still didn't hear your offer for compromise.--Pixel ;-) 19:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The images that I did (as well as the image on the KMines screenshot) were hand made. I didn't draw them. I didn't use paper and pencil. I made them on a computer (as well as the image on the KMines screenshot was also made by its author).
So,whay should your version,should be concidered neutral?Just because thers no executable?
And up to now, these images are on the article for a long time, and nobody is complaining about them. On the contrary, at least one person expressed approval for it. And concerning your question "why did you do them in the first place?", I see you already asked it many times, and I already responded many times, too. Take a look at the section Generic images above. I'll quote a part of that section: RodrigoCamargo 22:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: No, I don't. As I already said above, and as Wikipedia recommends, I propose us to give a break and wait for more people to join the discussion. It is more fair. RodrigoCamargo 23:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: O yes ,so that you can claim later that ther is a concesus on the images.--Pixel ;-) 18:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on Proposals for drawings/screenshots 

message: Should the images be drawings or screenchots?If it to be drawings, in wich style.If it to be a screenshot wich version?--Pixel ;-) 22:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can crunch them in no time.It's not a vote betwen the two,you can do proposals too,or modified versions.UI?you mean the window?i don't see what exacly is UI.Why should they be diagrams?Have a pic in the gallery.Or find one on the internet.Or make your won.--Pixel ;-) 00:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the drawings to any of the other options so far presented. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Rodrigo's drawings are simple, to the point, and faithful to the original minesweeper game without infringing on Microsoft's copyrights. Like it or not, the only real minesweeper is Windows minesweeper and everything else, including KMines, is a variant. The 3's in KMines are yellow, rather than red, and therefore unfaithful to windows minesweeper. In addition, in the 3BV part of the article, I have yet to see a KMines screenshot with the correct labeled 3BV. For instance, the beginner KMines board with a labeled 3BV of 19 actually has a 3BV of 20. In contrast, Rodrigo's drawings are labeled accurately. In addition, it is unfair to include screenshots of KMines without including screenshots of other minesweeper programs. Rodrigo's drawings are good because they to not advertise one minesweeper variant over any other. In short, the KMines screenshots should be removed and Rodrigo's drawings should be kept. --Arjadre 03:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reconted several times,it seems that it is really 19.Rodrigo Silveira Camargo sais that his stuf are neutral and don't look to any particular version,you said the exact oposit ."is unfair to include screenshots of KMines without including screenshots of other minesweeper programs", you are proposing?."are good because they to not advertise one minesweeper variant over any other",aren't you contradicting your self?--Pixel ;-) 18:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that you cannot accurately calculate the 3BV of a beginner board suggests that you may not have the necessary skill to create screenshots to illustate this article (Dick--PIXEL).The 3BV of that beginner board is 20, and I'm sure Rodrigo will back me up on that. Personal attacks aside, my point in my last post (which you quoted and said contradicted itself) is that the only fair way to include screenshots in this article is to either a) use screenshots of windows minesweeper (which cannot be done because of copyright issues), b) include screenshots of every minesweeper variant so that none are left out (which is impractical due to the sheer number of clones out there), or c) use Rodrigo's drawings, which are accurate, unbiased, and concise. To me, c is the clear choice.--Arjadre 04:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: How can they be "unbiased" and "faithful to the original" at the same time?--Pixel ;-) 13:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sir Pixel... you really irritate me.  It's obvious that you are just advertising for your clone.  We removed the "copyright forbidden" images, and replaced them with non winmine screenshots.  Like it or not, we replaced your blatant advertisements with something that was faithful to the game without violating said "copyright".  I don't buy the fact that minesweeper is copyrighted, because then EVERY SCREEN SHOT on this page would be illegal because they would all be recreations of a copyrighted material.  All minesweeper accomplishments in the past few years have been accomplished on the clone that we include on the screenshots (or a very close version called minesweeper arbiter), instead of your nonstandard and quite inferior clone (come back to me with decimal totals, video recording, a standard skin, and history creation before you call your clone superior).  Bottom line is that we need to show the users a STANDARD and not an IMITATION.  There are no copyright rules.  -DB (1-14-53) - 20:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: you really irritate meI'm pleased to hear that.just advertisingI never promoted my particular screenshots.don't buy the fact thatIf you don't beleave me,why you don't just put them back?EVERY SCREEN SHOT on this page would be illegalYour ignorance on the copyright isue is blatant,recreations of copyrighted matirial is not iligal.All minesweeper accomplishments in the past few years have been accomplished on the clone that we include on the screenshotsdon't see what you mean?call your clone superior this was never an isue here.I resume that your only argument is esthetics?--Pixel ;-) 20:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been heavily involved in the KMines wiki page and you will not stop editing your kmines back into the article.  We HAVE put them back, and you just replace them again.  Pure advertisement.  What I mean is world records, Sub50s and even Sub60s on expert, etc etc.  This is why we need to keep the screenshots as the standard, IMC APPROVED clone.  -DB (1-14-53) - 22:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposals for drawings/screenshots 

message: Restructuring the talk page.  -FunnyMan 16:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: I have tried for ever and I think only people who go to an Ivy League college can figure out this game.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.96.53 (talk) 02:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Can't even solve beginners maze

message: Why is there no mention of such variants as Minestein? It has a different set of algorithms that create puzzles that can always be solved logically, no guessing required.
Link: http://sourgumdrop.org.uk/minestein_1.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.2.25.143 (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Minestein

message: Came accidentally to this site.. I wrote a solver at year 1995 and just thought if it is the first solver ever made for the minesweeper game. you can still find it from
http://www.math.sc.chula.ac.th/~wacharin/old/games/winmine.html. The program name is minewalker.
I think I could still find the source code for the solver if anyone is interested. At that time I had no idea of the theory of the solving algoritm. I made it by using simple group mathematics. As far as I know, it will find all solveable squares.
Btw, the email address mentioned on the page is old; you can find me from firstname.lastname@gmail.com (you can find my name from the link).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.225.142 (talk) 20:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  History / solvers 

message: The Thrill Digger mini-game within the Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has strong similarities to Minesweeper. The biggest differences include:
1: The game doesn't keep track of the numbers for you, suggesting you should have paper and pencil handy to keep track of the different rupee colors you dig up.
2: Aside from green rupees always meaning there are no bombs near that rupee, the numbers are slightly randomized. Blue has 1 or 2 bombs nearby, red has 3 or 4, silver has 5 or 6, and gold has 7 or 8.
3: No timer whatsoever; the goal of the mini-game is to grab as many rupees as you can before you detonate a bomb by digging it up. Rupoors also appear from time to time, taking positions that count as bombs for the purpose of the type of the surrounding rupees. While they reduce your rupee total, they do not end the game in any way.
4: If you get all of the rupees without detonating a bomb (whether you get rupoors or not), the game immediately ends, and link gains a "Rare Treasure" (a kind of in-game crafting item). It costs 30, 50, or 70 rupees to start depending on which difficulty level you choose, and however many rupees you manage to pick up are awarded back to you upon completion of the game, whether it is a profit or a loss.
Any objections to at least throwing in a mention (albeit maybe not with as much detail as above) under History under Runescape and Mole Control?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.2.25.143 (talk) 06:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword 

message: All relevant info on mineseeper is already here,plus the variants article is more of a stub.--Pixel ;-) 21:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where did the Minesweeper Variants page go?  Was it deleted?  It certainly hasn't been merged as the main page makes little mention of variants.  Doesn't a list of variants have encyclopaedic value?  It's part of the greater minesweeper pop culture, and I imagine many people looking up minesweeper here would be keen to read about the various implementations.  There used to be quite a decent page on this.
And now that variants don't seem to be mentioned, how come the "See Also" section links to just two obscure variants: "Doki Doki Idol Star Shaker Remix" and "SquarO"? 202.164.195.173 (talk) 06:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for merge of [[Minesweeper Variants]] 

message: Summarizing old discussions in the hopes of helping us find a concensus.  Feel free to correct a section of the summary if you feel that it doesn't accuarely reflect the issue.  Please keep further comments to the #Further discussion section. - FunnyMan 16:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I gave you ten days to pull this back in line on your own, but it just degenerated, so I'm stepping back in.  The summary is not a place for discussion, treat it more like an article.  If you feel something is wrong with the summary, fix it.  Pro and con are separate for a reason, keep them separate.  If you want to counter a Pro statement, file that under Con, and vice versa.  And don't sign the summary, it's impersonal.  Discussion goes under #Further discussion.
===Summary===
What screenshots should be used to illustrate this article?
====Windows minesweeper screenshots====
Pros:
*Most well-known version of the game.
**Screenshots will be easily recognizable.
**Most readers won't use any other version
Cons:
*Screenshot of non-free software, so would have to be used under fair use.
**Fair use isn't desirable because:
***Fair use laws vary from country to country.
***This is a free encyclopedia, so free content is prefered.  See the first item under WP:FAIR#Policy.
**There are concerns as to whether fair use applies in this case.
*Might not be in-line with WP:NPOV because it promotes Microsoft software.
====KMines or other open-source software screenshots====
Pros:
*Screenshot of free software, clearly in line with the GFDL and copyright law.
*Similar enough to the Windows variant to be recognizable.
Cons:
*Less common version of the game.
**Most readers will not have used this version.
**The screenshots may be harder to recognize, despite similarities.
***For instance, the numbers are colored completely differently.
*Might not be in-line with WP:NPOV because it promotes open source software.
a note: 
color of the number in microsoft version is non-coincidentally( 1/8! ) that color in gwbasic ega palet, color(1)=blue, color(2)=green, color(3)=red... etc.
this may not be glaringly obvious to people without msdos background...
so if the colors allude to the ones in the microsoft version it may or may not be a coincidence and copyright worries arent quite as worrisome. Petetyj 23:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not that simple.  The "custom made" images only look like many variants because they look like windows version.  One group argues that all the other variants are worthless, and so they shouldn't be mentioned at all here, only the windows version.  They even wanted the kmines article to be deleted outright, without being merged in.  I find this a bit extreme.--Pixel ;-) 21:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find that POV.  The images are released to public domain, so we can tweak them to be more fair.  How about making the numbers black & white, for a start?  Looking at the archive again, I see that you actually proposed that at one point.  Seems logical to me.  The colors aren't really all that important (see below).  Maybe we could use B&W for most of the image but colored numbers/fields to highlight areas of interest.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Guess what?  The colors aren't really all that important.  Their purpose is to aid in distinguishing one number from another while playing, while still being readable.  People are used to seeing objects in different colors, they will recognize the overall structure of the image.  Mind, I'm not fond of the KMines colors, they're not distinct enough.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's POV, I find the colours to be very important, in particular, the windows colours, which are mimicked by all the major clones anyway, with Kmines seemingly the only (barely) noticable exception.SchuBomb 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: And the custom images are? What this have to do with the issue? -- Pixel ;-) 15:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: International Minesweeper Committee fails the Google test.  When Google next scans this page, that name's occurance will go up by 50% internet wide (it was on two pages before, one of them their own, and the other a glossary from a site way below the radar).  To me, this is a sign of a person or group of people who decided to adopt a fancy-sounding name and claim to be an authority.  If they were actually important, it would be discussed in other places on the web.  Therefore, I've pulled this out of the summary.  You want it back, prove that there's a reason we should care at all what the so-called "International" Minesweeper Committee thinks.  Fancy names don't lend any authority. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes they do.  I suggest you visit http://www.metanoodle.com/minesweeper (The Authoritative Minesweeper) or http://www.planet-minesweeper.com (Planet Minesweeper) and ask what the IMC is.  You'd be surprised.  All of the record holders and the elite at this game have to follow by those standards to even be recognized.  Also: you want a google test?  Google "minesweeper".  -- DB 01:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm...A group of (talented Minesweeper) users on a site following certain standards does not make those standards 'authoritative' in any way.  The discussion is about making sure the images are suitable for GFDL, fair use, NPOV, etc... 40.0.40.10 18:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It's a tradeoff.  The more an image looks generic, the less it looks like any specific version.  As to the "major varients", I'm going by the images at the bottom of the article.  They're different stylistically (colors, shading, font, flag/mine images), but the overall setup (grid, numbers, difference between 0 and unclicked, flags, mines) is the same in all of them, even the more exotic variants. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: First, the article should be neutral and discuss the game in general.  The Windows version is the most popular variant, yes, but the Christian variant is the most popular variant of religion, and I don't see that article using Christian symbols to illustrate everything.  In fact, I don't see any Christian symbols on that page at all.  Second, the article doesn't seem to be certain which variant of Minesweeper is the original, it looks like it might have been a variant that ran on the Tektronix 4051, whatever system that was.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's flawed reasoning, christianity is the most popular variant of religion but only just, and perhaps if there were a religion with the demographic overwhelming dominance of windows minesweeper (95% as a conservative estimate, with the major clones (that have the same look as winmine) and the linux version taking up most of the rest, as opposed to 33% for christianity) there would be pictures with that religion displayed all throughout that article. I say either winmine images, or something close enough to the winmine look to closely resemble it (including the correct colours) but slightly different to avoid NPOV and copy write issues.SchuBomb 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Screenshot discussion 

message: What screenshots should be used to illustrate this article?
====Windows minesweeper screenshots====
Pros:
*Most well-known version of the game.
**Screenshots will be easily recognizable.
**Most readers won't use any other version
Cons:
*Screenshot of non-free software, so would have to be used under fair use.
**Fair use isn't desirable because:
***Fair use laws vary from country to country.
***This is a free encyclopedia, so free content is prefered.  See the first item under WP:FAIR#Policy.
**There are concerns as to whether fair use applies in this case.
*Might not be in-line with WP:NPOV because it promotes Microsoft software.
====KMines or other open-source software screenshots====
Pros:
*Screenshot of free software, clearly in line with the GFDL and copyright law.
*Similar enough to the Windows variant to be recognizable.
Cons:
*Less common version of the game.
**Most readers will not have used this version.
**The screenshots may be harder to recognize, despite similarities.
***For instance, the numbers are colored completely differently.
*Might not be in-line with WP:NPOV because it promotes open source software.
a note: 
color of the number in microsoft version is non-coincidentally( 1/8! ) that color in gwbasic ega palet, color(1)=blue, color(2)=green, color(3)=red... etc.
this may not be glaringly obvious to people without msdos background...
so if the colors allude to the ones in the microsoft version it may or may not be a coincidence and copyright worries arent quite as worrisome. Petetyj 23:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary

message: Pros:
*Screenshot of free software, clearly in line with the GFDL and copyright law.
*Similar enough to the Windows variant to be recognizable.
Cons:
*Less common version of the game.
**Most readers will not have used this version.
**The screenshots may be harder to recognize, despite similarities.
***For instance, the numbers are colored completely differently.
*Might not be in-line with WP:NPOV because it promotes open source software.
a note: 
color of the number in microsoft version is non-coincidentally( 1/8! ) that color in gwbasic ega palet, color(1)=blue, color(2)=green, color(3)=red... etc.
this may not be glaringly obvious to people without msdos background...
so if the colors allude to the ones in the microsoft version it may or may not be a coincidence and copyright worries arent quite as worrisome. Petetyj 23:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[KMines]] or other open-source software screenshots

message: I've edited some of the below comments to help clarity.  In the case of Pixel ;-), this is to even the playing field, as he has (by his own admission, though I've lost the link) a mental disability, which makes his written English at times nearly unreadable.  In other cases, this is due to a change of context, as the comments were originally placed in the summary section above.  All changes are marked, with a link to the original. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not that simple.  The "custom made" images only look like many variants because they look like windows version.  One group argues that all the other variants are worthless, and so they shouldn't be mentioned at all here, only the windows version.  They even wanted the kmines article to be deleted outright, without being merged in.  I find this a bit extreme.--Pixel ;-) 21:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find that POV.  The images are released to public domain, so we can tweak them to be more fair.  How about making the numbers black & white, for a start?  Looking at the archive again, I see that you actually proposed that at one point.  Seems logical to me.  The colors aren't really all that important (see below).  Maybe we could use B&W for most of the image but colored numbers/fields to highlight areas of interest.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Guess what?  The colors aren't really all that important.  Their purpose is to aid in distinguishing one number from another while playing, while still being readable.  People are used to seeing objects in different colors, they will recognize the overall structure of the image.  Mind, I'm not fond of the KMines colors, they're not distinct enough.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's POV, I find the colours to be very important, in particular, the windows colours, which are mimicked by all the major clones anyway, with Kmines seemingly the only (barely) noticable exception.SchuBomb 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: And the custom images are? What this have to do with the issue? -- Pixel ;-) 15:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: International Minesweeper Committee fails the Google test.  When Google next scans this page, that name's occurance will go up by 50% internet wide (it was on two pages before, one of them their own, and the other a glossary from a site way below the radar).  To me, this is a sign of a person or group of people who decided to adopt a fancy-sounding name and claim to be an authority.  If they were actually important, it would be discussed in other places on the web.  Therefore, I've pulled this out of the summary.  You want it back, prove that there's a reason we should care at all what the so-called "International" Minesweeper Committee thinks.  Fancy names don't lend any authority. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes they do.  I suggest you visit http://www.metanoodle.com/minesweeper (The Authoritative Minesweeper) or http://www.planet-minesweeper.com (Planet Minesweeper) and ask what the IMC is.  You'd be surprised.  All of the record holders and the elite at this game have to follow by those standards to even be recognized.  Also: you want a google test?  Google "minesweeper".  -- DB 01:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm...A group of (talented Minesweeper) users on a site following certain standards does not make those standards 'authoritative' in any way.  The discussion is about making sure the images are suitable for GFDL, fair use, NPOV, etc... 40.0.40.10 18:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It's a tradeoff.  The more an image looks generic, the less it looks like any specific version.  As to the "major varients", I'm going by the images at the bottom of the article.  They're different stylistically (colors, shading, font, flag/mine images), but the overall setup (grid, numbers, difference between 0 and unclicked, flags, mines) is the same in all of them, even the more exotic variants. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: First, the article should be neutral and discuss the game in general.  The Windows version is the most popular variant, yes, but the Christian variant is the most popular variant of religion, and I don't see that article using Christian symbols to illustrate everything.  In fact, I don't see any Christian symbols on that page at all.  Second, the article doesn't seem to be certain which variant of Minesweeper is the original, it looks like it might have been a variant that ran on the Tektronix 4051, whatever system that was.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's flawed reasoning, christianity is the most popular variant of religion but only just, and perhaps if there were a religion with the demographic overwhelming dominance of windows minesweeper (95% as a conservative estimate, with the major clones (that have the same look as winmine) and the linux version taking up most of the rest, as opposed to 33% for christianity) there would be pictures with that religion displayed all throughout that article. I say either winmine images, or something close enough to the winmine look to closely resemble it (including the correct colours) but slightly different to avoid NPOV and copy write issues.SchuBomb 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further discussion

message: Intro:
:Minesweeper is a single-player computer game invented by Robert Donner in 1989.
History:
:There was a version on a Tektronix 4051 around 1981, but the tradition of passing around a 'games tape' goes back to at least 1973 [1]. This tape even contains a 3D version of minesweeper. The author of this game, David Ahl [2] is a crucial figure in the early history of computer games.
So who really invented it, and when?  Looks like a contradiction to me.  -FunnyMan 05:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. The Tektronix claim is the only one with citation... --anskas 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I am an idiot. —anskas 02:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: Curious: could the squares with the numbers perhaps better be referred to by numerals instead of words?  For example, 
Where there is a row of twos by a wall, four twos with ones at the ends means that the mines are beside the two middle twos, and beside the ones adjacent to the twos... being changed to Where there is a row of 2s by a wall, four 2s with 1s at the ends means that the mines are beside the two middle 2s, and beside the 1s adjacent to the 2s...  Nyttend 18:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers? 

message: I submitted the first version to use a windows-oriented user interface (SunWindows) to the old Usenet group comp.sources.games back in 1987; as a citation check out:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sources.games/browse_thread/thread/7c4b17a2c166a17d/7a7fb5ca34300444?lnk=st&q=xmines+Frank+Waters+Road&rnum=2&hl=en#7a7fb5ca34300444 
I noticed some coworkers playing rlogic on a DOS machine in a neighboring cubicle; thought it looked like fun, so I wrote a version for Sun workstations (starting by carving up a network chess game I had written earlier, called nchess). 
I don't know for sure, but I have reason to believe that the Microsoft game is probably inspired more by the game I wrote than by rlogic. The ability to flag squares as either verboten or as safe were from my original version of mines, which used various buttons (3-button mice on Suns, which stemmed from the old Smalltalk usage) for that purpose. 
The original sources were ported to Mac and [X Window]. xmines still lives on, even though the old Mac and SunWindows versions have long gone into the bit bucket...
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.145.254 (talk • contribs) 04:49, October 17, 2006 (UTC).
Sorry; I believe I may have mistakenly edited a previous person's comment rather than creating a new one (haven't really paid much attention to wikipedia commentary before; please don't hurt me).
The missing link in the minesweeper debate - which is a bit surprising to see, really, after all these years, may be the mines program I wrote and submitted to the comp.sources.game Usenet newsgroup back in 1987. The genesis of mines was seeing some coworkers playing rlogic in a neighboring cubicle, then writing a minesweeper game for SunWindows immediately afterward. (Curiously, I have never played rlogic; I just watched them play for a couple of minutes.)
The original Usenet postings are apparently disappearing from the web, but still seem to be cached here and there.  A google search for mines, plus my old home address (e.g., google search for "mines Frank Waters Road") is about the only proof of when the postings were made (though a pretty good one). 
The game was pretty simple; the objective was to make it from the upper-left to lower-right corner in a fixed grid of 16x16 squares. A user could specify the number of mines in the entire grid; reachability was not guaranteed. A feature that was new to mines (not in rlogic as far as I know, though then again, I never actually played the game) was the ability to flag squares as known to be safe or as "known" to have a mine, making it harder to accidentally get blown up by poor mouse skills. The appearance of this same feature a couple years later in the Microsoft version has always made me suspect that they saw the mines version as well (yes, Microsoft did have Sun workstations in those days, I think; though only Robert Donner could really tell us whether this was where they got the idea!)
I have some really old screenshots printed out in a box somewhere... If I find any, I'll add some images to this commentary. 
p.s. - as a citation, see:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sources.games/browse_thread/thread/7c4b17a2c166a17d/7a7fb5ca34300444?lnk=st&q=mines+%22Frank+Waters+Road%22&rnum=3&hl=en#7a7fb5ca34300444
not sure if all parts of the original shar (shell archive) are still squirreled away where google can see them, but I do still probably have the original sources somewhere (as if it really matters!)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikitoma (talk • contribs) 05:16, October 17, 2006 (UTC).
:Don't worry too much about putting comments in the wrong spot, that's easy to fix.  Please do remember to sign and date your comments with something like --~~~~, as adding that back in is somewhat more annoying.
:Please do try to find the images, that would make a great comparison shot for the article, especially since you're more than qualified to put them out under the GFDL for us.  The source code is also interesting, and if you're comfortable with it, it'd be great to see you put that out on Wikisource as a historical document.  Keep in mind that Wikisource is also under the GFDL, and you might want to consider allowing GPL as well, in case someone wants to use the code.
:I'll make some changes to the article in just a moment to reflect the new information.  Thank you very much for bringing this to us! -FunnyMan 05:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Windows Minesweeper Origin 

message: Should the MSN game be mentioned? Jr W 11:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minesweeper Flags 

message: None of the best times are cited. I'm particularly concerned that Jaymin Berg is accused of falsifying screenshots without citation. If it's untrue, it's libellous. It also says "some ... have been known to falsify records by altering screenshots..." but Berg is the only name given; this is "weasel worded." I'm going to put an "unreferencedsect" on the whole section. DrGaellon 15:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The citation for the best times is in the linked (in that section) best-ever list. As for cheating information, I could attempt to get the people who receive the record submissions to make a page about that that can be referenced.SchuBomb 23:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not at all clear. A proper Wikipedia citation should be entered to link that site - and that site is hardly definitive, since it's a self-organized group with no official authority. DrGaellon 03:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, you won't find a more definitive link right now, and second, that it has no official authority is also untrue, it is run by one of the members of the IMC (International Minesweeper Comittee), the organisation (elected by the community) that accepts or rejects scores.SchuBomb 08:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations in Best Times Section 

message: I renamed the "Linux implementations" section to "FOSS implementations" because GNOME and KDE also runs on other platforms. But now I notice that there is a section called "Variants". Why isn't this one big section? I think that information on other spcific ports that the Windows one is essential. By that I mean KMines, GNOME Mines, Winesweeper 3D. --Ysangkok 20:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two sections, only one needed 

message: "five twos in the same setting means that all twos except the centermost two are beside mines."
This makes no sense - in a row of five, no two can be called the "centermost".
EDIT: Never mind; I've realised now that it means the centremost square labelled as "two". I think this might require clarification; possibly giving the values of squares numerical designations, as one user above suggested (e.g. "2" instead of "two")?
Branfish 09:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double-square analysis 

message: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CH-Kx2sl9c
Apparently theres a secret mode in minesweeper in which the field acts as a sphere transformed into a plane (essentially a Mercator projection of the field). I suck too much at minesweeper to have tested it out fully, but if this is true then mention should be made of it in the cheats section EunuchOmerta 01:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WRAPFIELD cheat? 

message: I've got this 167 x 259 pixel image of minesweeper running in xp. needed ? 122.162.62.248 10:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: I am disputing the statement that "The business version of Vista does not come with the game." I use Windows Vista Business 32-bit, and it comes with Minesweeper (as well as all the other Windows games). --131.215.166.206 22:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So under Control Panel -> Programs and Features -> Windows features, there is a check box for "Games", which expands to check boxes for each of the games. I do not remember if it was enabled when I first installed Vista; but whether or not it was initially enabled, the games definitely come with Vista Business. --131.215.166.206 22:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minesweeper on Windows Vista Business 

message: I added a sentence about the sound option in Windows Minesweeper - this definitely used to work in Win 3.11, but I'm unsure about newer variants. Quite why the option to have sound enabled was removed by default, I have no idea! Stonejag 18:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound option