Talk:National anarchism

message: :This page was listed for deletion on July 23, 2005.  Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/National anarchism (2nd nomination).  The result was a keep by no consensus. humblefool®Deletion Reform 20:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

message: How about we make this article more inclusive of other kinds of national anarchism, like black anarchism?  Right now it comes off as all national anarchists are white nationalists. RJII 21:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There seems to be a bit of a confusion (or potential for confusion) here - there is a specific current of Third-Positionists (and those who came out of the Third Position) called National Anarchists, people like Southgate and Limonov. Then there maybe a more general phenomenon of combinations of anarchism and nationalism (though I'm not sure how widespread it is - for instance, I don't think black nationalism  is a significant current in black anarchism). I don't think it's helpful to have them both on the same page, at least, not unless there is much clearer separation. I suggest returning this page to being about the National Anarchist tendency grouped around the Third position and (if there's enough content to warrant it) starting a new page on Anarcho-nationalism. -- VoluntarySlave 07:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: black national anarchism

message: This article has been proposed for deletion now three times in the space of less than a year. The last two proposals clearly came out to no consensus for deletion, and in terms of sheer numbers the split was about 50/50. Considering that Wikipedia articles are not deleted unless there's a very strong consensus to do so, and considering that its highly unlikely that there will ever be such a consensus to delete this article, not to mention that there's a strong argument that National Anarchism is a relevant enough movement to warrant a Wikipedia article, I would like to request those who have been proposing these AfDs to cease in desist their continuous renominations of this article for deletion. This is really starting to come across as petty harassment. If there is another AfD, at least follow the guidelines given in Wikipedia:Guide_to_deletion#If_you_disagree_with_the_consensus:
:If you think that an article was wrongly kept after the AFD, you could wait to see if the article is improved to overcome your objections; if it isn't, you can renominate it for deletion. If and when you do renominate, be careful to say why you think the reasons proffered for keeping the article are poor, and why you think the article must be deleted.
The last AfD gave no indication that the proposer even bothered reviewing the previous AfD and totally failed to propose any meaningful counterargument to prior arguments for keeping this article.
Perhaps, however, energy is better spent improving the quality of this article. If this article has failed to address the highly marginal nature of National Anarchism within the broader anarchist milieu, then that's an improvement that could be made to this article, not a reason for its deletion. Peter G Werner 07:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If only one page is kept, nationalist anarchism deals with the broad set of positions of which National Anarchism is one very specific (and marginal and obscure) variant. Nationalist anarchism is the one that should stay if one were removed. But I don't see why there is a problem with having both, as they are both legitimate subjects of articles and they are not the same thing as each other. --BobFromBrockley 11:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion proposals 

message: Firstly Anarcho-Fascism is not purely nationalistic, you've got the idea all wrong, and I don't even think National Anarchism even truly exists. For real information regarding the Anarcho-Fascists please check out: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0422/is_4_82/ai_69411772/pg_7 - the idea was first breathed into the world by F.T. Marinetti the founder of Futurism. I also originally wrote one of the first thesis relating to Anarcho-Fascism, which has not been publically accepted until recently. I am an Anarcho-Fascist and nothing on this article is at all correct in its assumptions regarding my ideology/philosophy. Piecraft 15:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anarcho-Futurism ≠ National Anarchism 

message: I am getting rid of these statements about what the website Green Anarchy thinks about National Anarchism.  This is not a page about Green Anarchy, about their website, or about their opinions of National Anarchism.  As a concession, I'm keeping the link as a source for what I have written to replace this biased material.  I think I've made a pretty decents statement about the "relationship with the Anarchist Movement" stating that there both is a connection to anarchist ideas (like it or not, there is) and that "most anarchists" (a hard claim to substantiate, but I'll leave it there) reject their notion of racial segregation and hope to distance themselves from National anarchism.  I will try to see if I can figure out how to site this page as evidence that anarchists want to distance themselves from NA. Dwinetsk 19:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Relationship with the Anarchist Movement

message: See the nationalist anarchism Talk page: the additions to the latter article should put any further merger proposals into a different perspective. Those who think that anarcho-nationalism has scarcely an existence or history apart from National Anarchism had better think again. 172.141.198.21 08:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationalist anarchism (again)

message: I am removing the following pieces of text:
1)
Other Viewpoints
----
Please note that there are so-called "Anarcho-Fascist" groups who believe in the principles of governmentless state, and feel the best way to spread such and ideal is through war. Fascism, the term, is derived from the name "Fasci di Combattimento" which translates, roughly, to the league of combat. These groups tend to be more radical and violent, though their hate and focus is upon the government, not other people.
However, it is important to understand that the term "Anarcho-fascist" and its supposed ideology is fiercely rejected by anarchists and many scholars across the political spectrum as an obvious oxymoron.
This is highly POV, uses persuasive rather than descriptive language and is not relevant to a description of National Anarchism.  Besides that, I don't think it makes any sense.
2)
:"The claim by National-Anarchists to find influence in these thinkers is controversial."
How can a claim to find influence in a thinker be controversial?  It cannot: the controversy is whether the views of National Anarchists follow logically from the thinkers they have found influential.  If national anarchists found inpiration in those thinkers than they found inspiration in those thinkers.  I think those who say that this claim is controversial would have a hard time establishing that no National Anarchists have read these thinkers and found inspiration from their writing.
I wish to emphasize that an article on Wikipedia is not an appropriate forum to discuss these questions.  If you wish to argue that National Anarchists are racists and draw funny conclusions from classical anarchist thinkers, please find a different forum and let this philosophy be accurately described on Wikipedia for those who don't know about it.  Wikipedia users can then form their own opinions and maybe join you in whatever forum you find to debate idealogy.  This is an encyclopedia!!
3)
:"Third-positionism is a strand of neo-Fascist thought that evolved from Mussolini's view of Fascism as a 'Third Position' between Capitalism and Socialism."
This is not an article on third-positionism, but on national anarchism.  Readers can click the hypertext link.
4)
:"The N.R.F. has since been dismantled in favour of leaderless resistance cells and community building."
It is also not an article on the National Resistance Front, so I'm removing this sentence.  Again, readers can follow the hypertext link.
I'm going to move the following sentence (and neutralize the language a bit) to a new section I'm creating called, "National Anarchism and Fascism."  Someone who believes that National Anarchists are somehow fascist can fill it in with more substantive critique (seems kind of ridiculous to me because Fascism is so dependent on state organs which NA don't seem to believe in).
:"National-Anarchists completely reject Fascism as being Statist, but sometimes the term post-Fascist has been used to describe their own and related ideologies."
I'm also adding text to actually describe the beliefs of National Anarchists at the beginning, where it belongs.  Hope this is all relatively straight forward and helps this article to better explain its subject.  I believe it is still very biased against National Anarchism, but I'll let some National Anarchists defend it.  I'm just trying to get it to at least explain what the movement is.
Dwinetsk 11:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV clean up

message: Note to VoluntarySlave: citation coming right up! By the way, I notice that you removed one of my insertions in the opening sentence :-) I was having second thoughts about that myself, because it is useful to have a term that's wider than 'Southgatean' National-Anarchism. But in Black Ram, terms referring to anarchist/nationalist synthesis are used indiscriminately or interchangeably, and this is the earliest occurrence of 'anarcho-nationalism' that I know of. That's why I wrote that the terms National Anarchism and anarcho-nationalism were coined as equivalents. But I'm no historian; do you have evidence of an earlier usage than 1982 which would refute me on this point? :-) 172.203.51.176 21:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Black Ram and anarcho-nationalism

message: I have moved most of Southgate stuff to National-Anarchism, capitalised as it is not a "movement" but a specifc position. The Black Ram stuff has been preserved on the nationalist anarchist page, which can then serve as the general page. This reflects the direction of discussion.Harrypotter 19:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect