Talk:Black magic

message: There is no source given by the author about the claims on Islam in this article. Using a ta'weez and invoking  saints (there is no form of canonization in Islam anyway) is totally forbidden and considered _shirk_ , the most major sin.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.33.198.200 (talk) 20:49, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: ABOUT ISLAM

message: The section on black magic in Christianity is complete POV nonsense. The bible says nothing about Eve being the cause of magic coming into the world. Please, Sammael the fallen? Sounds like something from an RPG. I think the section needs to be removed or rewritten. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.125.217.133 (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Consider it removed. - ∅ (∅), 21:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:RS - ∅ (∅), 06:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: The reason I turned the redirect into a dabpage (iirc) was to reduce the need for  templates at the top of this page. There should never be more than one, imo. - ∅ (∅), 06:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect from [[Dark magic]] 

message: Hi, i just added a "a fictitious type of magic" to the lead. If someone would like to remove this, please source a verified example of black magic in history that has not been debunked. thanks 76.67.56.106 (talk) 19:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And what is the problem with that, i dont see an issue with holding the burden of proof that way. that seems quite rational actually. 76.67.56.106 (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  further, i feel that without some form of disclaimer in the lead (allegedly, etc), the topic is being given undue weight. this is NOT a majority view, and there is no section where criticism of its existence is prominently featured 76.67.56.106 (talk) 19:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

text: added "alleged" back to the lead. please do not compare the evidence in favour of gravity to the evidence of black magic, it's a foolish comparison. On gravity's page it is in fact referred to as a theory. the existenec of something CERTAINLY has bearing on how it is presented in an encyclopedia. all of the fiction articles are tagged as such, im not saying this should be "fiction" but to take the word "alleged" out of the article is whole-heartedly npov. an article on this topic should be on the history of the belief, not the properties of something that doesn't exist. 142.106.63.213 (talk) 15:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Edited out the in-universe tag. It's nonfiction, not fiction, whether or not you can verify, it is a category of study. Fiction is based upon events happening to individuals.  I also added in a white and black magic section, as although I agree there are no real defined classes of magic, typically religion will point to one type of magic and call it a miracle, and another and call it a corruption. I didn't know any genuine sources, but based upon what's in the religion, and what's in the occult category of the library is a good guideline. Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarified that it's fiction 

message: I highly disagree with the idea of merging Black Magic(k) with Necromancy.
The two are fundamentally different. One is a divinatory art - Hence "Mancy" refering to the Mantic arts, which, specifically are divinatory techniques. The idea of Necromancy being synonymous with "black magic" comes from popular media.
So, while one may be employed by one who practices the other, they are still separate practices. unless you consider all black magic to be divination through communication with the dead, which I don't. Necromancy belongs under Divination, Black Magic(k) belongs under Magic(k). --Arkayne Magii (talk) 06:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge discussion

message: since I do not think these theories formal, and in fact self published, I propose deleting them. The real issue is morality and magic. Those who believe all magic is immoral, don't believe in white magic. Those who don't believe in morality don't believe magic can be good or bad. This has little to do with the magic itself. So what makes magic black? Is it the ability to do harm? Violates certain codes? Is white magic all magic that isn't black? Rds865 (talk) 03:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a section as opposed to other types of magic. Several links would become dead, if you suddenly decided it didn't exist. Mass chaos would ensue. But I kinda made some work on what type are more likely to perceived as black or white.Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Theories

message: This article is in dire need of a complete and utter rewrite that will make it subjective and actually focus on what the term can mean in various contexts instead of insisting on what it is as if it actually exists. 76.169.99.79 (talk) 04:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't the article that needs a rewrite, it's the discussion. I've decided to remove some of this old cruft, so actual discussions (and not dumb people's story ideas) can be seen. Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

text: All you do is complain on talk pages. Constantly. Either fix what's wrong or stop reading articles. Talk pages are for discussing ways to actually improve the article, not to bitch about what you think is wrong and then make no effort to improve the thing. I suppose whining is easier and evidently you really think someone is interested in your constant complaints and opinions, so I fully expect to have the misfortune of seeing your name on yet another talk page accompanied by a poorly written complaint. 70.241.16.221 (talk) 12:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And what is the point about complaining about the complaining?66.110.253.148 (talk) 19:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Your basis for making that statement is?  Any references?  I am sure that is the case sometimes, but I believe there may be cases when there is some sort of spiritual force there. 66.110.253.148 (talk) 19:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dear God 

message: The section about Black Magic and Religion comes across to me as biased.  It refers to the practices as being "perverted" forms of Christian practices.  What is the basis for calling it perverted?  Such claims certainly need references.  And isn't "perverted" relative? 66.110.253.148 (talk) 19:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There certainly needs to be more discussion about sex in black magic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.187.84 (talk) 16:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Even with references it can still be biased. Jergas (talk) 20:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: This article is written as if it was a wiki of a fantasy novel or computer game, it presents everything as fact as if magic was not only existing but commonplace. Even articles about established mainstream religions are written very carefully in the manner of "followers of ___ believe that ... ", but here everything about magic is presented as a fact, even if the source is some fictional work no one intended to be taken seriously or literally. --79.116.87.215 (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this really Wikipedia? 

message: Most of the article is written to defend Wiccan "white magic" over black magic. Mostly obvious in the History. I think someone should rewrite the History section so that it really digs deep into the History of black magic and diminsh the contrast between white and black for its own section called The Contrast Between White Magic and Dark Magic or something similar.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klaubtye (talk • contribs) 23:02, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a look at the article's history you'll see the article was recently rewritten. I have no problem at all with further editing or amendment but what is there was designed to reflect what can be verified by reliable sources. The "history" is fairly simple - the concept of "black magic" (as distict from "white magic") is a fairly modern one. Prior to those modern distinctions, all magic was considered (by mainstream Church-based European society) "evil" or "dark". The history reflects the common history of "magic" in general, before it was defined as either "black" or "white". You'll see white magic is framed in the same terms. And we do have articles that set out the difference, like Left-hand path and right-hand path. Stalwart111 23:46, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article is a defense mechanism 

message: I placed a lot of templates on this section; it appears to have been written (badly) by a role-playing gamer using a single source (Google Books) that is selling a somewhat dubious book ascribed to A.E. Waite.  Here's the catch: Waite never wrote any book titled The Book of Black Magic and Ceremonial Magic.  If he had, it might have a WP article.  He did, in fact, write a book titled The Book of Black Magic and of Pacts, which he later revised and republished as The Book of Ceremonial Magic, which does have a WP article.  That book does not have any "spells" or "rituals" to achieve immortality as claimed in this section, and the editor's feeble attempts at what appears to have been intended as a discourse in the ethics of magic borders on gibberish.  Waite's actual book is not this easily broken down into four types of "spells" or "rituals"; on the contrary, it's a scholarly overview of specific works of traditional magic literature and the ethics and desires of the people who wrote them.  The section title seems broad and generic (and a little uncomfortably "how to"), but only this mythical Waite book is discussed within.  The section requires either extensive cleanup (expansion to include other authors and actual belief systems) and more and better sources, or outright deletion. "As-is", it contributes nothing useful to the article. 12.233.147.42 (talk) 02:37, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather than presumptuously assuming what an editor may or may not be and ascribing some sort of motive, how about you make some attempt to repair/edit/amend what has obviously been a collaborative effort rather than one person's POV? Google books does carry a book by that name, published by that author though there is obviously a good chance it is an almanac or republication of some sort (some 64 years after his death). It's worth noting the section claims nothing along the lines you suggest and makes no suggestion that those four subjects (part of a much older version of the article) have anything to do with that book. Rather, those are based on later books (and some unreliable sources that were the subject of earlier discussion) written after  A.E. Waite's and the section says as much. Drive-by tagging and assumptions of bad faith help nobody. St★lwart111 03:32, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Practices and rituals" section 

message: In this section a term used as vishnu maya is very wrong... vishnu maya is not a satanism... and it is a miss concept...this word should be immediately removed.... Aaru11 (talk) 05:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black magic in india 

message: Hi,
Requesting you to have a look at 
* Superstitions in Muslim societies and also Talk:Superstitions in Muslim societies
Requesting article expansion help, if above topics interest you.
Thanks and regards
Bookku (talk) 06:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting help in article expansion  

message: “Black magic” and “White magic” are the wrong terms you should use. They are racist terms. Please change these terms to Left hand path and Right hand path with the abbreviation of LHP and RHP. Ethan6809 (talk) 05:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you please cite some reliable sources on this? --Luka1184 (talk) 23:53, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of that (which I find unlikely since it seems most commonly the term "black magic" is associated with "magical" practices of white people, not Africans. Even on some Afro-American religions it seems black/white "magic" distinction is used not delineating race, but evil/good), it would be interesting at least to have something pointing to the first historical usage of the terms. 45.234.133.214 (talk) 00:42, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

text: I disagree. I believe black as a colour is used to represent things such as night and darkness, things that are widely considered evil or bad, a reason black magic and dark magic are interchangeable. The use of the colour black does not always pertain to race. Even if, historically, it was used to discriminate against a certain race that does not change the fact that it is used in plenty non-racist situations today 120.16.82.69 (talk) 07:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If the renaming of this article is being considered, please avoid using the terms left hand and right hand path. Unlike the term black which can be used to represent a number of things such as darkness and death these terms are exclusive to humans (avoiding when it is used to refer to animals). The concept of left handed people being evil stems from Christians believing that the left hand people belong to the devil. This is prejudice against left handed people and portrays them negatively the same way it was been proposed the title portrays Black people 120.16.82.69 (talk) 07:55, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist Roots 

message: Delete the 2 uses of the word 'primitive' in the line 'Like its counterpart white magic, the origins of black magic can be traced to the primitive, ritualistic worship of spirits as outlined in Robert M. Place's 2009 book, Magic and Alchemy.[4] Unlike white magic, in which Place sees parallels with primitive shamanistic efforts to achieve closeness with spiritual beings, the rituals that developed into modern black magic were designed to invoke those same spirits to produce beneficial outcomes for the practitioner'
The use of the word primitive is an opinion statement, not a factual one. Belac933 (talk) 21:34, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:41, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2022 

message: Black magic, also known as dark magic, has traditionally referred to the use of supernatural powers or magic for evil and selfish purposes,[1] specifically the seven magical arts prohibited by canon law, as expounded by Johannes Hartlieb in 1456.[2] During his period of scholarship, A. E. Waite provided a comprehensive account of black magic practices, rituals and traditions in The Book of Ceremonial Magic (1911).[3] 203.194.102.199 (talk) 10:12, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black magic, also known as dark magic, has traditionally referred to the use of supernatural powers or magic for evil and selfish purposes,[1] specifically the seven magical arts prohibited by canon law, as expounded by Johannes Hartlieb in 1456.[2] During his period of scholarship, A. E. Waite provided a comprehensive account of black magic practices, rituals and traditions in The Book of Ceremonial Magic (1911).[3] 

message: Nothing is mentioned in this article that it is infact a pseudoscience. Yudransh (talk) 11:09, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of pseudoscience  

message: Only 2 secondary sources. Both of which naming "black magic" as a possible interpretation by the Russian Media among others (Like nazi insignia). A direct accusation that black magic was the intended goal cannot be found. One of the cited articles is by Vice, a highly biased and unreliable source that hypocritically portrays the Russian Media as ridiculously superstitious, while accusing it propagandizing against Ukrainians. The statement on Wikipedia just undermines this, by phrasing the occurrence like a absurd story Russia being scared of Ukrainian warlocks. Please remove it for lack of relevance or at least change it up to be at least more truthful.  Olipso1999 (talk) 19:02, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian Accusation of Ukranians using black magic 

message: In the section Kallabah and Practical Kallabah, there's a paragraph that contains no sources and fuels antisemitic conspiracy. Could someone rectify this? Thanks. Syntheticpato (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antisemitism 

message: The edits your persist in attempting to add are all original research. You continue to add a YouTube video as a source after being told it is not a reliable source by both Skyerise and Shashwat986. You used an academia paper to claim "Kabballah is also central to freemasonic rites" when the paper doesn't appear to actually make this claim. You then you added your own beliefs that this is "another evidence that researchers point to, to validate that Kabballah contains black magic" which is unsourced MOS:EDITORIAL. This is WP:SYNTH at best and WP:OR at worst. The whole third paragraph was sourced to one paper than never mentions Kabballah or black magic. You made up a whole section and then just found papers with titles that kind of said what you wanted them to say. This is all original research and you need to stop edit warring your own personal views into the article. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or a WP:SOAPBOX and we don't deal in conspiracy theories. ThaddeusSholto (talk) 17:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Special:Contributions/Ramirami60|Ramirami60]] edits