Talk:Gambrinus

message: In Bruges there is a brasserie called "Cambrinus" in homage to the legend of Gambrinus (although the place had another name previously). Anyhow it's quite an impressive belgian brasserie, also has a statue of the legendary man on its street. see [] Maybe a quick mention of the place between the other bars/pubs in the article might be a good idea.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.225.248.115 (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: BierBrasserie Cambrinus in Bruges

message: Possible text to add to this article: supposedly the adjective "Gambrinous" means "full of beer". --Xyzzyplugh 02:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, this word is not well-attested, and Urban Dictionary is not a valid secondary source. Ringbang (talk) 19:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Gambrinous

message: I'm deleting an advertisement that was on this page (An Italian pub). Actually, I think all bars and pubs listed here should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prolagus (talk • contribs) 21:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; I removed another one. An exception could be made for an establishment of historical importance, but that should be described and justified in the prose, and not just dumped into a list. External links are right out. Ringbang (talk) 18:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Advertisement

message: A historical image of Gambrinus Brewery, Zurich, can be found on Wikimedia Commons and might be used here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brewery_Gambrinus_Zurich.png Maantee (talk) 20:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I put the image in the "Brands and breweries" section of the article. Ringbang (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical image of Gambrinus Brewery, Zurich 

message: In Norway, the three largest breweries in 1938—Ringnes, Frydenlund, and Schous—co-sponsored the creation of a ditty called "The Gambrinus Song".
This is kind of interesting, but I had to remove it from the "Brands" section because I could find no sources in any language to substantiate it. Ringbang (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Gambrinus Song" 

message: I completely rewrote the Gambrinus article in January 2014, and wanted to share some of my findings in case it helps anyone who wishes to improve the article or learn more about the topic.
For the rewrite, I consulted about 120 sources, and cited fewer than 50. I came away with the impression that English-language works about Gambrinus are... not great. Most of them are tertiary sources too far removed from the (non-English) source materials to be a reliable, nuanced report of what little information there is about the provenance and cultural function of Gambrinus. For this reason, this article contradicts what some tertiary sources have to say about Gambrinus; that's fine, because that information is supported by more reliable sources. At the same time, I'm trying to ensure that this article adheres to WP:NOR.
A disappointing surprise was that even a few scholarly sources are loose with their claims about Gambrinus. There are very few secondary sources on this topic, and even those resources rely on vague, unverified, or otherwise questionable information. This means that we can say very little conclusively about Gambrinus. In the first chapter of Etudes Gambrinales (1882), Ferdinand Reiber puts it this way:
:"At most one could say that this king is a blond, bearded young man with blue eyes who loves sumptuous clothing with bright colors, but who has the bad habit of leaning against barrels and holding a glass of foamy beer at eye-level."
I love this. Anyway, at the same time, I feel it is irresponsible to perpetuate misinformation by prefacing rumour with something like "It is said that...". I think the way to deal with topics like Gambrinus is to tell readers who wrote what, and when (that is, when we have a text), and then to provide some historical context while respecting WP:NOR.
===Secondary sources===
I think it's safe to say that there are no primary sources about the function of Gambrinus during the Middle Ages. It seems that a great deal of what is written about Gambrinus is traceable to a few pages from these works:
* "Note sur la tradition de Gambrivius roi mythique de Flandre" (1842) by Victor Coremans. This historical survey compiled by a Belgian archivist is one of the most comprehensive treatments of the subject. It's impossible to do a serious study of Gambrinus without reading this work.
* Annales Boiorum by Johannes Aventinus is the where all the fuss about Gambrivius comes from. A scholarly treatment would compare this 16th-century work with its antecedents from Heroditus, Tacitus, Berossus, etc., but the comparisons I found aren't very detailed. If someone finds a better one, that could improve this article.
* Lilium Francicum, veritate historica, botanica, et heraldica illustratum (1658) by Jean-Jacques Chifflet is the source of information about the Order of the Hop. It was written 250 years after the order existed, so even this information is far removed from its subject.
In one 19th-century source, Das Bier, seine Verfälschungen und die Mittel, solche nachzuweisen, a Dr. Stierlin flirtatiously mentions that "the old guild books" call Gambrinus the inventor of beer. Huh? What old guild books? I'd like to see those guild books! If only there were such guild books. I think he assumes there are guild books. I assume there are no guild books because no one cites guild books. I am guessing that the primary sources that come the closest to Gambrinus are those that illustrate the legal and economic context of brewing from the late 13th to the early 15th century.
One of the most readable books I found, which devotes a chapter (and then some) to Gambrinus, is Etudes gambrinales: histoire et archéologie de la bière et principalement de la bière de Strasbourg (1882) by Ferdinand Reiber. If you read French, or are patient enough to tweak a computer-assisted translation, check it out.
There must be some good stuff out there I haven't seen. I don't have access to paywalled databases, and that's a considerable hindrence.
===Avoiding circular references===
From its creation in June 2004 until the rewrite I posted on 14 January 2014, the Gambrinus article was unsourced. The article uniquely juxtaposed specific fallacies and descriptive phrases, some of which are, I believe, unique. When another author juxtaposes those same fallacies and word choices, it marks their work like blue dye from an ATM. Unfortunately, I found a few books with blue dye on them:
* Tasting Beer: An Insider's Guide to the World's Greatest Drink (2009) by Randy Mosher
* Encyclopaedia of Brewing (2013) by Chris Boulton
* Columbus Neighborhoods: A Guide to the Landmarks of Franklinton, German Village, King-Lincoln, Olde Town East, Short North and the University District (2013) by Tom Betti, Doreen Uhas Sauer, and Ed Lentz
That doesn't mean that these works are entirely untrustworthy—far from it. However, please don't cite them as sources for the following (false) claims:
# John the Fearless might have been the inventor of hopped malt beer.
# Cambarus is Latin for "cellarer".
# Camba is a Celtic word that means "brewer's pan". (What the heck is a "brewer's pan"?)
# Ganeae birrinus is Latin for "one who drinks in a tavern".
The first three confuse the facts, but I have to wonder whether the fourth isn't just made up.
Okay. I apologize for the length of this post. Ringbang (talk) 20:13, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gambrinus research 

message: From its creation in June 2004 until the rewrite I posted on 14 January 2014, the Gambrinus article was unsourced. The article uniquely juxtaposed specific fallacies and descriptive phrases, some of which are, I believe, unique. When another author juxtaposes those same fallacies and word choices, it marks their work like blue dye from an ATM. Unfortunately, I found a few books with blue dye on them:
* Tasting Beer: An Insider's Guide to the World's Greatest Drink (2009) by Randy Mosher
* Encyclopaedia of Brewing (2013) by Chris Boulton
* Columbus Neighborhoods: A Guide to the Landmarks of Franklinton, German Village, King-Lincoln, Olde Town East, Short North and the University District (2013) by Tom Betti, Doreen Uhas Sauer, and Ed Lentz
That doesn't mean that these works are entirely untrustworthy—far from it. However, please don't cite them as sources for the following (false) claims:
# John the Fearless might have been the inventor of hopped malt beer.
# Cambarus is Latin for "cellarer".
# Camba is a Celtic word that means "brewer's pan". (What the heck is a "brewer's pan"?)
# Ganeae birrinus is Latin for "one who drinks in a tavern".
The first three confuse the facts, but I have to wonder whether the fourth isn't just made up.
Okay. I apologize for the length of this post. Ringbang (talk) 20:13, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Avoiding circular references

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140116122204/http://www.mumci.org/historia_toluca_mexico.jsp to http://www.mumci.org/historia_toluca_mexico.jsp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140116103632/http://www.gmodelo.com.mx/victoria_en.jsp to http://www.gmodelo.com.mx/victoria_en.jsp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130331161630/http://steincollectors.org/library/articles/Gambrinu/Gambrinu.htm to http://www.steincollectors.org/library/articles/Gambrinu/Gambrinu.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140116103632/http://www.gmodelo.com.mx/victoria_en.jsp to http://www.gmodelo.com.mx/victoria_en.jsp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130331161630/http://steincollectors.org/library/articles/Gambrinu/Gambrinu.htm to http://www.steincollectors.org/library/articles/Gambrinu/Gambrinu.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I believe this is incorrect and should be Gam-Bree-Noose. Can someone more solid in Polish-Lithuanian history and culture weigh in here?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:646:8C00:4DB0:394E:757F:731C:FADA (talk) 04:00, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation