Talk:Australian Citizens Party

message: The Platform of this Party seems more Left-Wing Rather than Right-Wing, Perhaps it would be more accurate to label it Socially Right-Wing, Economically Left-Wing?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stiner226 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Political Position

message: Edit wars have been largely terminated on the other LaRouche pages, thanks to the mediation of Snowspinner. Please edit this page responsibly. --Herschelkrustofsky 13:58, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The "CEC-linked Website" mentions that former Governors-General Zelman Cowan and Ninian Stephen are on the ADC board. Weed Harper 15:04, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: old comments

message: Herschell removed a statement that LaRouche:
"believes that the world is ruled by a secret cabal of financiers based in London, the "Synarchy"".
and a second statement that LaRouche believes the Queen is the head of the synarchy.
Are you saying that LaRouche does not believe that the world is ruled by "the synarchy" or are you just embarassed by this belief?AndyL 23:33, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synarchy 

message: I am satisfied that the present version of the page is in compliance with Wikipedia NPOV policy and I am prepared to removed the "disputed" tag, if no one objects. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Undisputed

message: It appears that we have an edit war that is more a conflict between two individuals than a reasonable dispute over the article. The section added by 198.81.26.76, on the historical Australian figures that the CEC supports, is consistant with Wikipedia NPOV policy. It is rebutted in the following paragraph, which represents the opinion of CEC opponents. Therefore, the article is balanced, and the new paragraph is useful information. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:10, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Chuck F and Reithy

message: ===Cultural Basis===
The Citizens Electoral Council also has a continuing tradition of holding "Cultural Nights" in which they perform classical music, recite poetry and convey the immortality of Human Creation (Cognition) in the form of speeches.
Like the recent event they held in Coburg to commemorate the Immortality of Prime Minister John Curtin , on the 60th anniversary of his death. Expressing how an Australian could make such a change to the nation (through his break with Britain Midwar, that didn't result in more division within Australia and his personal battles with Alcoholism and depression, that didn't hinder his leadership in the time of need) by offering music of the CEC choir and orchestra and solo performances from its members.
For the Citizens Electoral Council publications (eg. Australian Alert Service) generally write to the effect, "if we do not change the culture of Australia, all of these political changes we incite or perform will not last a day". What is very much an idea borrowed from sister LaRouche Orginisations like the Schiller Institute.
----
I can't find a mention of this on the CEC website. Does anyone have a source? Thanks, -Willmcw 18:36, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
The source is obviously an Australian LaRouchist editor who attends these bizarre rituals, and who has my deepest sympathy in his/her affliction. The facts as presented are probably true in outline, but they are not very relevant to the article, and are so encrusted in POV language as to be beyond rescue. They should be deleted. Adam 11:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any mention of those events on the website. Remember it is your responsibility to cite your sources. Thanks, -Willmcw 20:19, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
I can just imagine John Curtin's response at being "celebrated" by these neo-Nazi cultist filth. Adam 07:08, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm still puzzling over the logic of ...to commemorate the Immortality of Prime Minister John Curtin , on the 60th anniversary of his death. Immortal - Dead? aren't those mutually exclusive? Is he a vampire? -Willmcw 07:15, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
I hadn't previously heard of LaRouchist seances, but anything is possible. Possibly they are getting ready for when Fuhrer Lyndon drops off (he is 83 I think) and they have to get his latest directives from the Great Loony Bin in the Sky. Adam 08:02, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced material 

message: The Citizens Electoral Council also has a continuing tradition of holding "Cultural Nights" in which they perform classical music, recite poetry and convey the immortality of Human Creation (Cognition) in the form of speeches.
Like the recent event they held in Coburg to commemorate the Immortality of Prime Minister John Curtin , on the 60th anniversary of his death. Expressing how an Australian could make such a change to the nation (through his break with Britain Midwar, that didn't result in more division within Australia and his personal battles with Alcoholism and depression, that didn't hinder his leadership in the time of need) by offering music of the CEC choir and orchestra and solo performances from its members.
For the Citizens Electoral Council publications (eg. Australian Alert Service) generally write to the effect, "if we do not change the culture of Australia, all of these political changes we incite or perform will not last a day". What is very much an idea borrowed from sister LaRouche Orginisations like the Schiller Institute.
----
I can't find a mention of this on the CEC website. Does anyone have a source? Thanks, -Willmcw 18:36, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
The source is obviously an Australian LaRouchist editor who attends these bizarre rituals, and who has my deepest sympathy in his/her affliction. The facts as presented are probably true in outline, but they are not very relevant to the article, and are so encrusted in POV language as to be beyond rescue. They should be deleted. Adam 11:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any mention of those events on the website. Remember it is your responsibility to cite your sources. Thanks, -Willmcw 20:19, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
I can just imagine John Curtin's response at being "celebrated" by these neo-Nazi cultist filth. Adam 07:08, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm still puzzling over the logic of ...to commemorate the Immortality of Prime Minister John Curtin , on the 60th anniversary of his death. Immortal - Dead? aren't those mutually exclusive? Is he a vampire? -Willmcw 07:15, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
I hadn't previously heard of LaRouchist seances, but anything is possible. Possibly they are getting ready for when Fuhrer Lyndon drops off (he is 83 I think) and they have to get his latest directives from the Great Loony Bin in the Sky. Adam 08:02, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural Basis

message: The Citizens Electoral Council history (that I used to write the History section), are taken from a campaign DVD that I found produced by the party and sold on the streets by their members. Shane george 01:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: LaRouche sources should not be used for Wikipedia articles. They are not reliable. -Willmcw 04:39, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: CEC history

message: Does anyone object to a move to Citizens Electoral Council of Australia as the full name of this organisation? Frickeg 02:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  Is there another organisation called the CEC anywhere else in the world?  If there is I take back my objection, on the condition that Citizens Electoral Council becomes a thingy page.  Otherwise, what is the point? (PS I am fulling intending to work on this article, I just haven't yet.  Their environmental policies for example ...)~AFA Ю</sub> 01:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move? 

message: I have deleted some websites bcause of pages not found notices and the Channel 9 Sunday page was the same as The Australian page. Kathleen.wright5 03:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Websites Deleted 

message: The Info box states that the leader of the party is Craig Isherwood. The problem I have with this is that their WWW site http://www.cecaust.com.au/main.asp?sub=info&id=structure.htm does NOT list him as the leader. It lists him as the National Secretary and also Treasurer. As Brian McCarthy is the national chairman, maybe he should be named as their leader. 
Vk2tds 00:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. I checked and found a PDF of a Nov/Dec 2006 newsletter announcing the change. Go ahead and change it.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 06:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leadership 

message: Can someone write a bit more about the party's early history in the late 1980s? Since they did get an MP elected to a state parliament in that era, it seems like it warrants mentioning. Rebecca 05:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Early history

message: How can the CEC be considered far right, when they strongly oppose globalisation and deregulation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.193.41 (talk) 10:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Labels like that should only be used when undisputed. See also Talk:European Workers Party. --Marvin Diode 15:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having taken a look at Citizens Electoral Council#Platform, I am removing that characterization. --Marvin Diode 17:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean you made that determination on your own? That's original research. There are sources that call the CEC "right wing". Are there any sources that dispute that characterization?  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with your reasoning. Placing the party in a category is an editorial decision, not a research decision, and should only be made if the issue is beyond dispute. The article itself, in Citizens Electoral Council#Platform, would appear to contradict the category. If there is a published opinion that says the party is right wing, it should be included in the body of the article. But even if someone strongly desires to categorize the party as right wing, it should not be done if there is any doubt. --Marvin Diode 14:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For you to decide that the party is not far right, despite three sources, is original research. There is no dispute among reliable sources. The sources are in English, not Swedish. If there are sources that says the CEC is left wing, or even moderate, then I'd agree there's a dispute. But your opinion of their platform doesn't count in this matter. (Nothing personal)  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are using the template for political parties as an opportunity to post criticism. I have examined a variety of Wikipedia articles on the parties listed at List of political parties in Australia, and no other party is treated that way -- the descriptions used come from the parties' self-descriptions. So, I am changing the CEC listing so as to conform to the way the other parties are treated. You can post your criticism in the body of the article. --Terrawatt (talk) 07:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Source?  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 07:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Of? Timeshift (talk) 08:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The party's "self-description". Where are we getting it from? I don't see them calling themselves "republican, protectionist" on their "About us" page.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 08:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Their main self-description seems to be "peace through economic development" which does not conveniently fit any ideological category. However, "protectionism" is certainly documented in their "history and philosophy" statement  and I think it is permissible to infer from their demands for "sovereignty" and opposition to monarchy  that they are republican. --Marvin Diode (talk) 15:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So, in other words, you replaced well-sourced material with unsourced original research. And you think that's an improvement? Perhaps we should re-reead "WP:V" and "WP:NOR". While we want to be neutral and fair, making up stuff doesn't help.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 21:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't do anything, other than to attempt to make a constructive contribution on a talk page. However, I think that Terrawatt's point has merit, that being that comparable articles about other minor Australian parties do not place criticism in the descriptive box. --Marvin Diode (talk) 03:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the sourced content is rejected, and the added conent is unsourced, I've split the difference and removed the "ideology" entirely. If we can find an unequivocal statement then we can quote that.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 04:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

text: That works for me. Good idea.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 06:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. It's nice to finally agree on something. --Terrawatt (talk) 07:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Challenge of assertion of position of political spectrum 

message: I just split this off from the "Criticism" section, as the latter two paragraphs are not criticism of the CEC, but rather policies/statements made by the CEC. I'm not sure about the heading wording though, don't want it to be POV. Any ideas? Thanks. Cricketgirl 16:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that it made more sense the way it was. The CEC's views on the ADC would not be especially notable, except as response to criticism from the ADC, which is the way that I read the previous format. --Terrawatt 22:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial statements section 

message: Hello all... 
An image used in the article, specifically :Image:AlymCadre1.jpg, has a little bit of a licensing issue.  The image was uploaded back when the rules around image uploading were less restrictive.  It is presumed that the uploader was willing to license the picture under the GFDL license but was not clear in that regard.  As such, the image, while not at risk of deletion, is likely not clearly licensed to allow for free use in any future use of this article.  If anyone has an image that can replace this, or can go take one and upload it, it would be best.
You have your mission, take your camera and start clicking.--Jordan 1972 (talk) 21:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Bzzt. "This template is for legacy images and should not be added to images uploaded after 1st Jan 2006. GFDL presumed." Now run along little one. Timeshift (talk) 22:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image needs replacement 

message: I notice there was a CEC MP at Electoral district of Barambah. This should probably be added to a list in the article. Does anyone know of other CEC MPs? Was Perrett elected in Barambah under the CEC banner? Timeshift (talk) 09:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes he was - he won a by-election in 1988 against the endorsed Nationals candidate - but he switched to the Nationals before the 1989 election. He later became a minister in the Borbidge Ministry, but lost his seat to One Nation at the 1998 election. There has been no other CEC MPs - he was elected when CEC was associated with Eric Butler and the League of Rights, before they got taken over by the LaRouche people. Orderinchaos 10:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What Orderinchaos said. Perrett's short term as a CEC rep is already listed; I suppose it can't hurt to highlight that again at the bottom if you want, but there aren't any others. Rebecca (talk) 10:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Out of sheer interest, any idea if detailed results of the by-election are available? Timeshift (talk) 10:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Yep. I'll create a shell article to house them, if nobody minds expanding it into an article. Orderinchaos 10:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. By no means complete, and unfortunately the best source I have on the by-election (the Political Chronicle) isn't actually terribly comprehensive in this instance. Pretty much all the useful stuff is there. Might try SMH/Age on Factiva later. Orderinchaos 10:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  CEC MPs? 

message: There does not seem to be any basis for the claim that "In the mid-2000s, the party found support from Muslim groups opposed to the detention of suspected terrorists by the United States at Guantanamo Bay detention camp". One link is dead, the other makes no such claim. This allegation ought to be deleted.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslim supporters? 

message: If the CEC is inspired and close to the LaRouche movement, it is left wing, nor right wing.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:35, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of their policies as listed in the article seem left-wing. Jimp 14:36, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Left wing? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article contains a confusing mix of references to the CEC and ACP which appear to stem from the party’s renaming in 2007.
To preserve adequate references to the history of the party I would propose the article be restructured to move all defences to the CEC into a History sub-section, or introduce a timeline structure of sub-headings to the article’s body to preserve pre-2007 information. 
I am not an expert on either the CEC or ACP, not involved with the party (either now or then). I noted the outdated content via use of the page to get basic information on the ACP. 
A restructure would likely require input from someone familiar with the party and its history to ensure accuracy is maintained. Ayrendal (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The party wasn't renamed in 2007 but vastly more recently - it seems to have happened around 2020 but I cannot find an exact source for that. I don't see a problem necessarily with just renaming mentions of "CEC" to "ACP" as it doesn't appear that anything else changed other than the name, but it may cause confusion because it's vastly better known as the CEC. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:55, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs update and restructure?