Talk:Northeastern United States/Archive 2

message: It seems that some people are almost pushing an agenda to have these states included in the northeast.  What's the big deal?  I'm sorry, but Virginia, including Washington D.C., and West Virginia are certainly not part of the northeast.  Ohio is certainly a mid-western state.  Parts of Maryland could *MAYBE* be considered northeastern, but I would suggest that Maryland is also not part of the northeast.  The Census Bureau definition is valid: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Xfatmoe (talk) 17:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Northeast megalopolis extends through Washington D.C. or even Richmond according to the recent Virginia Tech studies (see megapolitan area) in spite of the difference with traditional cultural definitions. On the other hand, western Pennsylvania and New York are closer to the Midwest in urban connectivity and dialect. (e.g. Inland Northern American English) So the best definition depends on what field you are talking about. --JWB (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I respect your viewpoint, but I must argue that you're pulling at strings.  I believe that even taking into account abstract ideas such as "megapolitan areas," most people would not consider cities in southern states, like Richmond, are part of the northeast while western Pennsylvania and New York are mid-western.  Upon further thinking, I would actually argue to include Delaware in the northeast region, because it is considered above the Mason-Dixon Line, which has traditionally symbolized a demarcation between the Northern United States and the Southern United States.  Again, I could see an argument being made for Maryland, but Virginia is definitely southern-Atlantic.  Also, I cannot agree that New York or Pennsylvania could be considered mid-western, especially when Missouri is often considered central mid-west.Xfatmoe (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

text: I always find this amusing.   To me Northeast is synonymous with New England.   In other words, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut.  If I'm feeling charitable I include New York.   Nothing south of New York should be called "North" anything IMHO. That being said, it doesn't really matter what our opinions are, as North East is an established region per the U.S. Census Bureau.
Mattlach (talk) 19:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio 

message: Worth inclusion? Mapsax (talk) 06:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atlas of Popular Culture in the Northeastern United States 

message: I have happened upon this page in the past couple years.
Delaware is obviously the most controversial state when arguing North vs. South.
If you consider states, you must consider the purpose of states, or colonies. It is apparent to anyone that a state, or colony exists due to the extent in which people exist and govern said state or colony. Although Delaware may align with Maryland for the most part, geographically, the living human beings in Delaware are majority located in New Castle County, the northernmost of Pennsylvania's lower three counties.
When people bring up slavery, you must consider what amount, or percentage of blacks were in slavery at the time of the emancipation proclamation. Any research will undercover that Delaware had a minute amount or percentage of these, despite bordering the confederate state of Maryland.
In colonial times, it is without doubt that Delaware was considered a middle colony.
Unfortunately, the U.S. Census makes brash considerations as to where it must draw the line between north and south. Obviously, it has made a mistake in the 2000 Census.
This does not mean we have to perpetuate this misinterpretration on Wikipedia. Those who argue Delaware southern are usually New Englanders. If you speak geographically, north and south split down Virginia's southern border.
Correct the map as it should be corrected. At the very least, Delaware should be shaded.
Feel free to argue your points.
Although  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.203.164 (talk) 02:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well put.  I have little to argue right now simply because the article was renamed to specify it is only talking about the Census Bureau designation of Northeastern - which, quite obviously, makes no distinction based on cultures or connections but rather on whatever the hell they felt like doing.  SO now that this page has decided to tell people what the Census Bureau already tells people, where do we make a page that informs people about what the Northeast actually is - cause this page blows, there's not a lot of info on here that people are searching for that they can't find on the census website.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldlinestate (talk • contribs) 07:49, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delaware 

message: I reverted Grayshi's insertion of several states as falling within various entities' definitions of Northeastern United States. The insertion  violated WP:UNDUE (as did the examples discussed on this talk page above in relation to similar insertions in July) because it elevates the characterization of random agencies above others without any third party sourcing to establish that the agency's opinion is worth inclusion (the  U.S. Energy Information Administration Natural Gas Pipeline System? Wisconsin?). This just highlights how the term "Northeastern United States" doesn't have much of a meaning at all. The only agency that has defined the "region" and received third party coverage of the characterization is the Census Bureau. It is not perfect, but it is supportable with sources other than primary sources which run into WP:UNDUE problem if strictly summarized only or WP:SYNTH problems as they did in the paste. Hoppingalong (talk) 00:47, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how it violates WP:UNDUE at all; nothing in the policy states that you must provide a secondary source for a source. The paragraph barely exceeds a few sentences and does represent a significant minority belief, and may even be considered a majority belief. A definition of the Northeast existed long before the Census Bureau, and I have yet to see any third-party coverage on the article for the Census Bureau's definition, nor can I find any significant coverage for the Census Bureau. For all we know they could have hired a homeless man to draw region lines on a map; remember that it is only one source and just because it is a government agency does not mean it is the end-all be-all source for truth. You're applying double standards here. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 21:17, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not entirely convinced the concept of "Northeastern United States" as a distinct region with any meaning other than limited to specific idiosyncratic contexts does exist.  It is not like, for example, New England or Southern United States which have been and continue to be viewed as distinct regions culturally, geopolitically, etc. The Census Bureau definition is not the be all and end all, and whether you and I would draw the lines differently is irrelevant, but the CB does compile most of the statistics for the United States. And those statistics get covered in reliable third party sources (example 1, example 2, and  example 3, all from this month alone). I would be fine renaming this "Northeastern United States (Census Bureau region)" or something like that. Then if other definitions deserve their own article, and enough sources cover them to meet WP:N, they could get their own. And "Northeastern United States" could become as disambiguation page. With the exception of the nearly uncited History section (which highlights the fact that this is not a region with a coherent character), this is not much more than that anyway. In sum, without a reliable third party source indicating that a particular person or entity's definition is generally regarded as having any significant meaning, there is no way to overcome the WP:PRIMARY problem and assign the view its proper weight, if any, per WP:UNDUE. Hoppingalong (talk) 00:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are the Census Bureau's statistics for population and are completely irrelevant to the definition of the Northeast itself. Again, you still haven't proven why the Census Bureau's definition is any more authoritative than that of other government agencies or any other organization. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 23:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the articles I linked above related to population figures as such. They related to homeowner vacancy rates, Congressional representation (which, I admit, is itself based only on population), and absentee voting rates. As I noted, I am not sure the region as such has any meaning or notability beyond the specifics of whichever group is defining it. I would argue that there is no right or wrong definition of "Northeastern United States" because the area is not inherently a region in the same way some other areas are. Nonetheless, the Census Bureau's definition is used for most of the nation's demographic and statistical purposes. It seems to be the most widely used, perhaps the only one used by entities other than the entity creating the definition. And it gets coverage in third party sources. My argument is based on the coverage of the various definitions in third party sources. The International Nuclear Safety Center's map of nuclear reactors in what it has determined for its purposes to be the Northeastern United States does not. Hoppingalong (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you'll have to provide evidence that Census Bureau data that is directly related to a definition of the Northeast is the most used and accepted by third party sources, and not say, the Fish and Wildlife Service. My searches haven't yielded anything so far proving this. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 21:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure the article has much use since, other than the Census Bureau definition, there seems little other than various one-off definitions of a bidirectional description, not a description of an area with any inherent geo, political, social, or other significant factor. Anyway, above I provided three sources that at least indicate the region is covered as such. With this I have now added a source saying exactly what you requested, from the U.S. Energy Information Administration no less. And I would note that the Fish and Wildlife Service regions do not appear to be intended to represent anything other than an breakdown for internal administrative purposes (Here is the map). They formally use numbers, not region names, and make the District of Columbia its own "region" which to me indicates the breakdown was probably to even the number of employees in the various regions, not any noteworthy characteristics of any particular region. Hoppingalong (talk) 22:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I added another with this and another with this. Hoppingalong (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The same could be said for the Census Bureau definition. Their maps seem to have arbitrary divisions of Northeast, South, etc. with little consideration of the culture or distinct identity for each area. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 22:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

text: All right, that idea sounds reasonable. …Grayshi talk ■ my contribs 20:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I took a whack at it. I could see moving some of the definitional text/sourcing into the "Composition" section, but that might not be worth it since the lead would either get very short or it would be a long summary of what would still be a relatively short article. Maybe a ask for some other day. Hoppingalong (talk) 21:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grayshi's November 2010 addition 

message: With these linked edits, I removed most of the uncited geography/climate material. It was flagged since June 2010, was entirely uncited and essay-like (or even apparent OR in some cases), was unclear as to which definition of Northeastern United States it was based on, and was not written in an encyclopedic tone. I also reordered the remaining sections to put the Northeast Megalopolis paragraph closer to the demographic information (which also has source problems, but there must be sources to be had on it). On a more minor note, I removed the see also links because they are linked already in the footers and it seemed disproportionate for them to be also linked as see alsos. Hoppingalong (talk) 01:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography and climate sections, etc. 

message: I moved this article to Northeastern United States (U.S. Census Bureau) from Northeastern United States in an effort for clarity and to avoid the regular fights about which definition of this "region" should apply. If other version s of the region are notable, they can get their own article and Northeastern United States can disambiguate. The Census Bureau regional definitions are the most widely used, as noted in the article. But there are so many other definitions, I thought adding the Census Bureau would add clarity. Because of the number of other definitions, and because nobody has put forward any sources that indicate the region is somehow inherently cohesive, I think this is the best way to handle it. Though there are no other NE U.S. articles yet, there could be. Though the Census Bureau is the most widely used, that does not necessarily mean it should not have a qualifier in the title as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Hoppingalong (talk) 01:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article move was unnecessary. Every other regional Wikipedia page seems to get along fine with citing the CB def as well as more realistic and common definitions. This article was perfectly fine for a few years until it was changed to its current skeletal/CB focused form earlier this year. There aren't a huge number of other "versions." Usually, either they fall in line with the CB's or they include MD, DE, and DC. Whether WV is included is probably the biggest inconsistency. I don't understand the big deal. The states in dark red are always considered part of the Northeast, the states in light red are sometimes considered part of the NE, and the white states are practically never considered part of the NE. 007bond (talk) 02:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is verifiability. If you go back and read this talk page and the archive, you'll see that everybody and their dog has an opinion about the definition of this region, and some people don't think it is a true region at all. We need to avoid WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and personal opinion. As for the other "regions", the regions that the Census Bureau defines, like Midwestern United States, make clear this is what the article is about without going into various editors' opinions or SYNTH. The Western United States and Southern United States article are slightly different because they were viewed as regions before and separate from the Census Bureau defined them.  The Northeast (unlike New England) was not. Anyway, to make the article about anything other than various definitions, especially when dealing with demography, geography, and to a lesser extent history, there needs to be a definition used throughout the article. Since almost all U.S. statistics use the CB definition, that would seem to have to carry the day, subject to mentioning briefly any other definitions worthy of mention per WP:UNDUE. Hoppingalong (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is incorrect to say nobody else has this problem with the Census Bureau designation.  Check out the Southern United States or Southeastern US pages - one of them partially includes MD and DE and another doesn't include them at all.  MD and DE are not being placed anywhere.  No one is claiming them.   They should be shaded "light red" at least on this map.  Hands down.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.30.43 (talk) 01:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: They are not part of the Census Bureau region. If they are part of a notable region (whether called Northeastern United States or something else by some other entity), they can be listed there. And they are the heart of the Mid-Atlantic states article and they are discussed at Southern United States and Eastern United States; there is no lack of coverage. Hoppingalong (talk) 01:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article move 

message: I added the population under the demographics section, it seemed weird that it was missing. Red Hair Bow (talk) 00:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics