Talk:Armenian Legion

message: Hey everyone, I think we can still expand and improve the wording in this article. I've noticed there have been some revisions over the past few days. It'd be nice to post here what exactly that you changed just so we don't have to read the entire article to find changes. Hey Tigran. --MarshallBagramyan 21:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: Thanks for the reference. I still believe (in fact i'm confidant) that this is a fabrication. I will get back to this article after I thouroughly research the matter and present my references.--Eupator 18:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yair Auron 

message: Give us some better information from some immpartial and neutral sources Steven. 
Thanks --MarshallBagramyan 05:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding Deletion of Turkish article by johnstevens 

message: The Armenian Dashnaks siding with Nazi's is a historical fact.
The archive's verify this.
I'd like to proove and verify this from Objective sources.
"...Nevertheless there remains the incontestable fact that relations between the Nazis and Daschnaks living in occupied areas were close and active.
On 30 december 1941 an Armenian batallion was created by a decision of the Wehrmacht, known as the Armenian 812th Battalion. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of committed recruits, and a number of Armenians from the prisoners of war taken by the Nazis in their sweep eastwards. Early on the total number was 8000; this number later grew to 20,000. The 812 th Batallion was operational in the Crimea and the North Caucasus. A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German minister of the occupied areas. The Council president was Professor Ardasher Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Guilkhandanian and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until thje end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenian, edited by Viken Shantn (the son of Levon) who also broadcast on Radio Berlin...Hence it was important to prove to the Nazis that the Armenians were Aryans. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach they seem to have achieved this..." 
Christopher J. Walker's "Armenia —The Survival of a Nation," page 357, para 2.
That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher', Armenian architect
of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, and Nezhdeh sided
with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of
Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service.'''
[1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, _Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen_ (Heinz Holzberg
Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119.
[2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 19.
In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed, to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created. These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours red-blue-orange and the inscription _Armenien._
[1] Joachim Hoffmann, _Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer_ (Verlag Rombach Freiburg 1976), p. 172.
The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of twenty thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt.[3] In addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite _Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler._[4]
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 136-137.
[2] United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167, pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D - Oststelle,
see _Documents 3 and 4._
[3] Georg Tessin, _Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945,_ (Frankfurt am Main 1965-1980), Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS.
[4] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 119.
Derounian says that
"Greece was honeycombed with Armenians serving as Nazi spies." [1]
Many Nazi Armenians were arrested by the British and sentenced by the Greek government as collaborators in espionage.[2] In Rumania many Nazi Armenians were found in Antonescu's Iron Guard during arrest of members after the war. Bulgaria was the operational base of Tzeghagrons-founder Garagin Nezhdeh, who commanded a network of espionage from there.
[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 20.
[2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150.
In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Muslim
Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia, was
working closely with the German Secret Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia made him an invaluable source for the Germans.[1]'''
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen,
ibid., p. 84.
Numerous articles in major newspapers (London Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested the existence of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history. Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call "crisis control" or face-saving. In order to
forestall any potential attacks on the larger Armenian community in
the United States, he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but
insignificant.[1]'''
[1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), _The Plotters_
E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182.
This are objective fact's, I don't want to here Armenian extremists uttering the same old nonsense. 
As a Brit, involved in the justice system I wish to see the realities exposed and these little known facts must be revealed as the Armenian Lobbies in the West have for far too long pretended to be the innocent, angelic, butter wouldn't mealt in their mouth nation.   
General Dro was a Nazi General and had previously massacred innocent Turks in Eastern Anatolia where the Armenians claim a genocide occured, no wonder they want to keep this secret.
On another note, Nazi General Dro is today a national hero in Armenia, its time Nazi generals cease to be heralded as great people.
I have images of Armenian Nazi's aswell in their uniforms I would like to add them.
Regards
JohnStevens5
:: This is a true testament to the racist nature of the Armenian psyche! Weems was not mistaken to call them a nation of terrorists! Lutherian 18:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Nazi collaboration  - Objective Sources 

message: I'd like the quotes I used to stop being deleted, they are fully referenced and objective.
Regards
Johnstevens5
: unfortunately this topic is constantly being hijacked by armenian nationalists and their sympethizers with a bid to whitewash this murderous gang of thugs 85.0.32.97 04:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, very unfortunate. What's also unfortunate is that you still haven't grasped the fact that you can't just copy and paste from websites, such as this one. It's called a copyvio (copyright violation). —Khoikhoi 04:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also see the bottom of the page from the link I provided, "Copyright © 2003-2004 Turkla.com. All Rights Reserved". —Khoikhoi 05:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed, it should not be a copypaste exercise, text should be modified to avert copyright vio JorgChire 05:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are Objective facts being removed by Nationalist Extremist Armenians? This is an Encyclopedia, not a Armenian Propoganda Site 

message: There are some other Armenian Legions/Battallions in history, which joined other nations' armies, to fight against Ottoman Empire:
* During Balkan Wars, Armenians had an auxiliary battle group within Bulgarian Army - Andranik_Toros_Ozanian#Balkan_Wars
* During WW I, French Army employed an Armenian Legion in Adana (Turkey) and Arara (Palestine) - , Sarkis_Zeitlian
* There were also Armenian volunteer units in Russian and British armies in WW I - Armenian_volunteer_units
--Gokhan 09:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Armenian Battle Groups 

message: 200,000 men is enough to outfit an entire army, not a battalion which is the size of about 600 men. There was no way there were that many Armenians who were taken prisoner, much less who volunteered to fight in the German armed forces. The 200,000 figure in the book, is as Auron states, in the text: the figure was bloated by Kanayan to impress Hitler. There were 11,000 Armenians in field battalions and 7,000 in labor battalions. 
You didn't even bother rewording the text, the LEAD section is completely plagiarized from Auron's book, that's outright copyvio. --MarshallBagramyan 03:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the manual for citations; The source of the sentences are given with a full credit assigned by the reference. The correctness of the sentences are very important in this case. No one wants to add their own representation. Especially I do not want to add my own representation. You really need to calm down your attacks. Citations within the limits are not "outright copyvio" --OttomanReference 03:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Instead of attacking personalities, hope you learn to work within the limits of the facts. By the way, this is not a war, please drop this rhetoric of  negativity. Please do not become personal, just work within the limits of the information. I wish a nice day for you.  --OttomanReference 04:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Size

message: One of my students wrote a paper last month with the 200,000 number based on this article. After looking at the source, and the source's sources*, it is clear that number is a claim by a prospective quisling at potential support, and has nothing to do with any reality.
*The source's source's source is a Turkish source with no peer reviewed publications at all, and probably one of the highly nationalist POV piece that are around the margins (from all sides) this type of discussion. Author Auron is pointing that Rozen's source is not legitimate. 
Think about it, if pro-German persons, from any number of countries, assertions of potenial support to the Germans during the war were included in all such articles it would seem as if every country in the war zone had huge numbers of soliers willing to fight for the Nazis.
The source material indicates 8,000 to a potential 18,000 as the very top number.72.75.31.249 13:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Auron was pointing that Rozen source is inaccurate, what does Turkish source (unnamed) have to do with this? Actually Auron claimed 20,000 per Turkish source, while saying that Kananyan's claimed figure was 200,000. Atabek 13:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The 200,000 figure was not from a Turkish source trying to make the Nazi collaboration of the Armenians look even worse. It was from an Armenian trying to impress Hitler. See above in talk page, also.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.70.65 (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  200,000 

message: # got rid of 'ibid'. Please people don't use it, this is an encyclopedia anyone can edit any time; and anyone can insert a new source any time, in which case ibid's will give us false info.
#restored a sourced section, the 'background section', which is possibly more important than other sections.
#moved "American historian Dallin.." sentence up, and replaced anons sentence with it
#explained Wehrmacht, so that people don't need to go other articles and stay with this article
#added fact tags
#moved Ost battalion to "See also"
DenizTC 18:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added reference expanding on Dro Kananyan and Garegin Njdeh's role and their claim on the size of the legion. Atabek 00:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should have read the talkpage before reinserting the numbers. The numbers were proved to be wrong and Auron was misquoted. VartanM 00:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes 

message: I reverted the article because it was lacking sources. Saying that other sources disagree or say this, and not provide the said sources is called original research which is prohibited under WP:OR, if our IP friend wishes to reinsert the text he needs to provide reliable sources. oh and don't forget to sign your posts with 4 tides ~.   --VartanM 20:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reliable sources

message: I assume that's what the person who named that section was referring to with the name "perspective", since the only content of the section was a quote that tells of Hitler's opinion, or perspective, on the Nazi Armenians.
1)Other than changing the title, I pointed out that Hitler did, in fact, approve of the Armenian collaboration with the Nazis, despite whatever misgivings he may have harboured. I also took the opportunity to point out what it was about the Nazi perspective and plans that attracted the Armenians to join the Nazis.
2) I got rid of the extra </ref> that was in the source, in the intro paragraph. It was showing up when viewing the article.
3) Capitalized "legion" in "Armenian legion" in the Background section
4) Changed "...Soviet battalions; He remarked: "..." to "...Soviet battalions. He remarked, "..."
5) changed the wording in the intro re: the "new world order", making it simpler, using capitals, and making "New World Order" a link to the article on that subject
Hope my edits are well received! 
Regards
--24.5.70.65 20:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changed Perspective Section to "Nazi Perspective", other proofreading edits and re-wording

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