Talk:Sabre Dance

message: If the editor(s) of the Sabre Dance article intend to keep the "Appearances in pop culture" section, I suggest adding Jumpin' Jack Flash (film). Consider the fact that the use of Sabre Dance in that movie is cited in the Wikipedia article, although it does not link to this article.
12.185.201.126 (talk) 11:06, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Done! --Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞  02:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Friendly Addition

message: The section about appearances in Amercian tv shows and Western culture is five times longer than the section about the piece itself?  What kind of joke is this? Esn 04:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sad indeed. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it's almost of neccessity going to be like that, since the piece itself is not particularly ground-breaking, and pretty much the only reason it has an article of its own separate from the one on Gayane is that it's so immediately recognizable and so often (over-)used on TV shows, in movies, etc. Lbark 03:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ugh

message: How can it be finished in 1942 and played for the silent Keystone Cops?
Did Khachaturian export intermediate versions from the Soviet Union?
--84.20.17.84 12:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1942? 

message: An article very similar to this appears at the NationMaster Encyclopedia website http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sabre-Dance
There are some sections of this article that are word for word on that website.
Kville105125 (talk) 14:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: NationMaster mirrors the wikipedia content. Try looking up other articles there, and compare them to the wikipedia versions. Mikkel (talk) 05:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism? 

message: Does this article, with its recent expansion, still qualify as a stub?
Kville105125 (talk) 13:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stub? 

message: The whole section "In popuar culture" ought to be removed. There's not a single source for any of it, and even if there were, it would be much better to mention the "Sabre Dance" in the artist's or work's article than here. A simple summary, stating that the piece has wide spread coverage in films, TV shows and by other performers should be enough. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 16:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Normally we've been removing all of these trivia farms throughout WP:CM.  I think I had looked the other way for this one because the article really serves little purpose other than the trivia farm.  This is really just a short excerpt of Gayane (ballet) and all serious discussion is correctly located up there.  Its sort of analogous to Flight of the Bumblebee.  But if we applied the same standards as we did to other WP:CM articles, we'd just delete the whole section.DavidRF (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Sabre Dance" is a massively popular piece, even among those who never heard of Khachaturian or even "classical music" as a whole. Can you say the same about Gayane? What defines notability again? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 20:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not talking about removing the article.  We're talking about removing the "In popular culture" section.  Do you want an article to be about the piece of music or an article or about who uses it?  If the piece is popular, these sections become these ever-growing trivia farms.  Its the "ooh, I just heard the Sabre Dance in a commercial for car insurance, I'm going to go add that to wikipedia!" mindset that we're disagreeing with.  See .  In the past, we've split off these sections into child articles (something like Sabre Dance in popular culture) but those articles end up getting deleted (mainly its editors from outside WP:CM who push to delete those).  See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1812 Overture in popular culture for one of many examples.DavidRF (talk) 21:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As much as the sarcastic picture made me chuckle, this is hardly the same. Note that WP:TRIVIA encourages us to turn bulleted lists into prose, not remove entire sections. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the same.  There's 23 bullets right now and one could probably double that without much effort.  Just google "Sabre Dance" and add the pop culture references you find to that section.  I'm not exaggerating, either.  We've seen other "in popular culture" sections grow to several screens long before there was a movement to remove them all a few years ago.  How are you going to turn all of that into prose?  The only thing that needs to be said is that the piece is very recognizable and appears all sorts of places.  Any more detail turns the article into an ever-growing trivia farm.  Trying to include just a few ends up begging for people to add more.  These sections have it backwards anyways.  Those articles should link here and not vice-versa.  Why does this article link to Blues Brothers 2000 when the use of the Sabre Dance is not mentioned there or in the soundtrack?  Why is it linking to Chick Rooster or Reptilian (band) when they don't even have articles?  Anyhow, that's the rationale.  The main reason why this list never got deleted is that from an encyclopedic perspective, the main article for this composition is Gayane (ballet), so this article has mainly served as the pop culture magnet for stuff that would otherwise be removed (as it had to be removed from articles like 1812 Overture).DavidRF (talk) 03:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: These are exactly the reasons why I removed that section. My edit also improved the articles in various other ways, some listed in my edit summary. The subsequent wholesale reversal of my edit was unwarranted. I'm going to reinstate my edit. If anybody wants to reinstate the section "On popular culture", a source needs to be provided for each item that a) it's true; b) a notable use of the Sabre Dance. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

text: PS: As for Hearfourmewesique's : Note the date when I started this thread and consider WP:SILENCE. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: In popular culture

message: This sentence doesn't seem to be true, because the two sources provided do not talk about it
*the first source  mention Sabre Dance only once: "The ballet Gayance (1942, including his favorite "Sabre Dance") and the Second Symphony (1943) were aksi successful and were warmly praised by Shostakovich."
*the second source  (p. 23) has a whole page about Sabre Dance, but does not say that the "middle section incorporates an Armenian folk song from Gyumri."
Although I'm not an expert, I think its clear (and I found a few sources) that the Sabre Dance has been influenced by Armenian folk music. However, I'd like to see where Gyumri came from. I'll remove Gyumri part for now. --Երևանցի talk  01:07, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Its middle section incorporates an Armenian folk song from Gyumri" 

message: "Because of its exceptionally exciting rhythm, the "Sabre Dance" established a place for itself in common concert practice, leading also to various adaptations in popular music."
I see this sort of stuff all the time in classical music articles here on wikipedia. On what grounds can an encyclopedia make a statement like this? If it was a quote that would be alright I guess, but that is seldom the case. Not only does the author state that the piece has an "exceptionally exciting rhythm", a statement that can only ever be true if you have some sort of psychological study to back it up, they then proceed to attribute the piece's omnipresence in western culture to this single (dubious) fact.
As I said, this problem is not unique to this article, but this is a particularly blatant example. --79.136.62.161 (talk) 21:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally understand your concerns. I have been working on this article the lately and have tried to improve it as much as possible by adding sources. As you can see in the lead, I prefer adding quotes because its hard to accurately paraphrase those statements and avoid plagiarism. I guess sentences like that one should be deleted. --Երևանցի talk  22:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal opinions 

message: As said above, the whole overview section is simple WP:OR
::It evokes a whirling war dance, where the dancers display their skill with sabres. Because of its exceptionally exciting rhythm, the "Sabre Dance" established a place for itself in common concert practice, leading also to various adaptations in popular music. Its recognizable ostinato and popular melodies have made it a popular concert band piece.
::The orchestral version is written in the key of G major. It starts out with a recognizable motif ostinato with the timpani and strings that can be heard throughout much of the piece. The upper woodwinds and keyboard percussion take an exciting dance melody, later accompanied by the low brass. Then the strings come in with a folk song melody. The first melody is then briefly recapitulated. Descending chromatic eighth notes bring the piece down to straight eighth notes on the note G in the low strings. The piece ends on ascending quarter notes in a F pentatonic scale (against the G bass) to an open G octave.
Unless sources are provided, there is no reason why this text should be in the article. --Երևանցի talk  22:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced text  

message: Anyone know whether this is in PD yet? 217.42.255.92 (talk) 20:13, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright status 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified