Talk:23 enigma/Archive 1

message: I added and moved and deleted a bunch of stuff, and it didn't help much.  This page needs a lot of work and probably *is* mostly unfit for encyclopedic inclusion.  It can be a useful link, though, from Burroughs, Wilson, Crowley, Discordianism, et al.  The 23 Enigma, and the multiple ways of looking at dikiebirds, plays an important role in these philosophies; this article's history illustrates well just how much power and division such a simple idea can dildo.  However, the lengthy and unwieldy list really does belong on a blog or discussion page, not in an encyclopedia article.  I didn't have the heart to delete all those beautiful ramblings, so I cleaned them up some and left them all for someone else to deal with. Matheson 19:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  July 2006 Cleanup 

message: Oh, and "Franklin Delano Roosevelt contains 23 letters" is worthy?—GraemeMcRaetalk 03:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, Rutherford Birchard Hayes, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, William Jefferson Clinton, and George Herbert Walker Bush all have 23 letters in their names.—GraemeMcRaetalk 04:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] 

message: In the tags that confirm or debunk the collection of 23 related facts, much emphasis is put on the arbitrariness of the appearance of 23. For example, the tilt of the earth's axis is rejected because dividing a circle into 360 degrees is arbitrary.
The symbol "23" is also arbitrary. It could also be represented as X X I I I, or 101112, or 23 knots on a piece of string, or 23 pebbles. It is an abstract concept that represents I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I things.
To me, the most important fact is that a human being has 23 pairs of chromosomes. 23 is the number of "things" required to produce a human, that has a brain, that can design the internet, that can write words here.
23 is the number of things required to invent the symbol "23" that represents the number of things required to invent the symbol.
i agree.  the quantity of 23 is important, however the number is not.  the 9-11-2001 holds no bearing, as you cannot arbitrarily choose to use '11' as '11' and '2001' as '2+0+0+1.'  [(9+11+2+0+0+1=23) theory]The undertow 01:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debunking 

message: I zapped the 'see also's referring to 11, 22 and 33 for the obvious reason, the least of which being that the links point to nonexistent articles. Zeno Izen 08:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted excessive "see also"s 

message: The link to the rock band "Tool" took you to the article on "tool" as in hammer or screwdriver, so i fixed the link. --Bmk 03:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tool misdirect 

message: Do others think it is necessary to have a point-by-point rebuttal to each of these claims about the ubiquity of the number 23? To my mind it is unnecessary and panders to those who would like to start meaningless debate about the validity and significance of each occurrence, also arousing the type of person who believes almost all of society is committed to 'hushing up' and denying the 23 phenomenon. It would be nicer, I feel, to start this list with one well thought out paragraph making the points about the arbitrary nature of the degrees of a circle, date and base-10 numbering conventions etc, and of course the likelihood or otherwise of coincidence etc in all of these and only keep the commentary to those entries in the list which merit further discussion. If no-one feels strongly I will try and make these edits. Via strass 15:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  list of 'mythic / legendary' references 

message: Added this number-theoretic breakdown, which I am now disputing. Can someone verify it and determine if it is appropriate?
:"As a number with which to associate..."
Alksub 18:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: Anyone could explain the 23 is the smallest number of integer-sided boxes that tile a box so that no two boxes share a common length. comment? It didn't come across really clearly and the link provided doesn't really help.If this is referring to the squaring the square tiling problem, the smallest number needed to square a square is 21 and not 23. Could someone check/clarify? - fiveless 07:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smallest number of integer-sided boxes 

message: This article has become a textbook directory/indiscriminate collection of information. What has to be determined is a) what is worthy of encyclopedic mention and b) what is unimportant trivia. Do we need to know every instance in which a "23" is involved? Every sports uniform number? Every occurrence in popular culture? I think that by focusing on less dubious entries, this can become a more solid article. Thoughts? -- weirdoactor t|c -- 05:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had a go at it.  In particular, I've removed Lost (TV series), since the repeated occurrences are not strictly a reference to 23, but rather references to one of the Six Numbers - there are also lots of references to the others (e.g. the flight number containing 8 and 15).  Chris cheese whine 06:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very nice work. I'll try to get some done on it this weekend. -- weirdoactor t|c -- 18:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps it is worth establishing criteria for inclusion? I am reading quite a few of the list (like "Famed Tejano singer Selena was murdered at the age of 23.") and thinking 'so what?' Perhaps the main list should only include examples that other people have thought was significant enough to mention (i.e. they need to all come with references). Same should probably go for the popular culture section (also possibly consider a "23 in popular culture" section if it gets too big in the future). (Emperor 00:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Via; they decided to have 23 as a jersey number; it's not like "fate" or "the monkey's paw" FORCED them to wear 23. That's my point; the article needs to be more about "happenstance" than directed happenings. -- weirdoactor t|c 05:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a more prosaic explanation too   - it seems to be that Michael Jordan's success resulted in a lot of other sportstars picking that number thus resulting in what looks like a cluster (its not that they were randomly issued the number and it happened to be 23). Its worth noting that Jordan made his comeback with the number 45 shirt and seemed not to have been bothered by the change in number.  (Emperor 05:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MAJOR pruning is needed for this article 

message: What about this? Can anyone expand please?
"47 (number) - another number that is said to occur frequently in connection with nature and human events (and is also, like 23, frequently cited in fiction)." (In "see also") -- Dexter prog 18:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  23 and 47 related? 

message: Looks like the UFO freaks nice people have claimed this page. *click* Annnnnnnnnnnnd, it's off my watchlist. Good luck. Have fun connecting 23 to Bigfoot/Chupacabra/Christopher Walken. -- weirdoactor t|c 13:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been dragged back. So, beware, UFO lovers. Any OBPOV (Ooga Booga Point Of View), and I will smite thee. -- weirdoactor t|c 16:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice. 

message: 2 divided by 3 = .666 <---------- ???
i say this has to go (delete it) to maintain any 'continuity' for this page.
2/3 is not .666, but .6 repeating or .667.  either way, .666 is not 666, but one-thousandth of it. the number of the beast is not a fraction.
the 'number of the beast' refers to a particular religious faction and besides the fuzzy math, it seems exclusionary.
things that occur in 23 (the quantity) seem to be most relative.  but taking 2/3 is really as relevant as 3/2 = 1.5, which is number of litres 
in the toyota scion engine.  it is a non sequitur and has nothing to do with 'twenty-three.'  The undertow 02:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Also 2 other items from the 'mathematical' list have to go for sure. The 'fact' about roman numerals simply expresses that the number 23 in Roman numerals is made up of 2 tens and 3 units, the same as in Arabic ones. This is tautological. The fact about being able to make any number from adding 2's and 3's expresses the 'surprising fact' that 2 and 3 are the smallest natural numbers, except 1(!) Via strass 11:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  im thinking the pi reference is just as bad.  there have to be a plethora of non-integers that work in the same fashion.  1.995 comes to mind.The undertow 12:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes. As I mentioned above what this entry should be about are examples of 23 that other people have thought significant to publish in works which touch on this (not just random mentions of 23 or tortured "proofs" that just happen to occur to someone). I have added links to sites which are far more comprehensive than we could ever be and includes all the various jumping through hoops to get to 23. I'll go back through the Illuminatus Trilogy and extract the examples RAW gives. We should then be able to prepare examples to show the case people have made for this. (Emperor 14:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of the Beast or 2/3 

message: Okay. I'll try to keep this civil. I may fail.
09/11/2001.
9 + 1 + 1* + 2 + 1 = 14; 1 + 4 = 5. NOT 23.
* NOT 9 + 11, that's not how math or numerology works.
From a recent edit:
The World Trade Center attacks happened on September 11, 2001 (9/11 = 20) on a Tuesday, the 3rd day of the week (9/11 = 20 + 3 = 23)
9/11 seems to indicate 9 divided by 11...which is 0.81818181818181818181818181818182. Try again.
If you mean 9 + 11 = 20; and Tuesday being the third (3) day of the week, then you get 23; but you STILL have to add the 2 + 3, which equals....FIVE. This is the 23 (numerology) article, NOT the 5 (numerology) article. Not the "9/11 was caused by the CIA in conjunction with the monkeys who live in my head" article. Uhnkay? Awesome. Thanks! -- weirdoactor t|c 04:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes this does seem to be the most popular of what I think of as "obvious" 23 sums. Most of the just seem to involve jumping through hoops to find the right way to get to 23 (as 9/11/2001 can be added up various different ways arriving at different numbers and then  you pick the path that gets you to 23). We should try and avoid these unless someone has published something prominently idnetifying this as significant. (Emperor 14:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  9/11 references vs. math & numerology & logic 

message: Someone posted a laundry list warning on the front page. Now while the pop culture references seem to work as a list I have suggested above that we split them off into a separate article. 
The rest of the article would work better with fewer lists: it makes for better flow and also means that it is harder for people to drop in their favourite 23 (which usually seem to to be of the "obvious" but insignificant variety - see section above).
I'm not sure if it is worth sandboxing but I'd suggest expanding on various paragraphs and using the best examples from "A 23 enigma list". So make the second paragraph the core of a section "Origins" and bring in its appearance in Burroughs Dutch Schultz book then quoting the section in the Illuminatus Trilogy where Wilson and Shea pick up the ball and run with it. Then mention Principia Discordia and the like (throw in years of publication so people can see the development). Then have "The case for 23" with prominent examples that people have published on as being significant for the case of 23. Then have "Apohenia" which takes paragraphs 2 and 3.
As I've said we can't possibly have a comprehensive list of 23s (for practical reasons and because much of them aren't verifiable) so we break things down so it takes about the way it came into the public conciousness, the main examples used to support the case and a more natural explanation for it. This would focus this entry on the phenomena of 23 - we split of pop culture references to 23 (which is notable but isn't relevant to the nature of the phenomena) and we link to sites with more comprehensive lists of 23 with suitable caveats about them being largely unsourced (I think you can catch up on this latter aspect on weirdactors talk page).
I also think that if we do this we might need to added hidden comments to each section suggesting people think carefully before adding their favourite 23 example in (especially where it is of the "obvious but not significant" variety mentioned above) and that it might be worth running it past the talk page first. What we really want to avoid are the same examples being added in and removed all the time - removing lists will, hopefully, reduce this problem but not eliminate it.
Thoughts? (Emperor 14:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delisting 

message: first time writing on here, I cannot find anything anywhere about Alban Berg the composer and his obsession with 23.  His piece the Lyric Suite is full of refferences.  George Perle wrote a book about the lyric suite and included the annotated score that Berg gave to his mistress Hannah Fuchs detailing where the 23's and tens were, among other things.  He thought 23 was his # and 10 was hers.  Perle talks alot about this.  I wrote a college term paper about this.  I think it should be mentioned somewhere.  Maybe there just aren't to many Berg fans out there.  Also when Berg died the number 23 was there, another example of confirmation bias or something perhaps.
<http://www.geocities.com/al6an6erg/lyric.html>
This is not a great source, but it does mention this.  If I can find my paper I will list some more refferences.  Also I believe this example of 23 to be important since it predates the Robert Anton Wilson bits.  Berg wrote this piece in the 20's maybe ? more historical, not simply a response to Wilson.  Like my personal 23 incident a band out of San Diego called the K23 Orchestra <http://www.k23orchestra.com/> which is merely a reference to a Tom Robbins novel Jitterbug Perfume and K23 in that book.
(Jeremyveggiebass 04:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can properly source it then add it in. It sounds interesting. (Emperor 05:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alban Berg and 23 

message: Many artists and bands names (Tupac, Pablo Picasso, Eazy E, UNKLE, Dr. Dre, etc.) contain 5 letters (2+3=5, 23). It is worthy to mention that many of these artists are rappers, some have died, and/or have made major contributions to their specialty; whether it be art or music. Does this fall under the 23 enigma?
Also, a previous post mentioned the presidential names that consist of 23 letters (Exp. Franklin Delano Roosevelt) that may constitute for the enigma.
Endtro 20:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 5 does not equal 23. I don't care how its rationalized. EvilCouch 14:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a well circulated connection: "Discordians regard this as a corollary of the Law of Fives". That said the above information isn't worth noting here and won't fly in the Law of Fives section so... (Emperor 14:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artist/ Band Names 

message: A big 23 article but it does run fast and loose with the examples  so I'll throw it in for perusal and not add it it. (Emperor 00:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibly source 

message: Am I the only who thinks it is kind of pointless to desperately try to find 23 anywhere? e.g.: "Anna Nicole Smith died on 02/08/2007 (2*8+7=23)" I mean, come on... I agree in adding birth that where in the 23rd day of a month or in year XX23, but multiplying to get 23?, come on... I think this should be removed. --Dexter_prog (talk • contribs • &site=en.wikipedia.org count) @ 21:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. It is a cause of concern for a number of us. I believe I have a solution as anything else is bordering on original research. It can only be included if a reliable source considers it as being part of the 23 Enigma. Robert Anton Wilson has written extensively on this and this plus other examples based on the same principles would be enough to provide a solid set of examples of the occurence of 23 without violating the various core Wikipedia guidelines like verfiability and notability. Equally (as discussed above) pop culture references need to be split off to their own entry as they don't have any bearing on the enigma and it can get horrible circular if they are considered as such. So yes - remove it. (Emperor 22:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finding 23 where there is no 23 

message: The Cleveland Torso Murderer's first two victims were found on September 23rd, 1935. Victim 7 was found on February 23rd, 1937. His last three victims were found in 1938 (1+9+3+8=23); one on April 8th, the other two on August 16th. None of the murderer's victims were ever found on their exact date of death, but rather 2-3 days to a year later in some cases. It is unknown what day the  victims actually died, so it is referred to as the day they were found by the police.
It should be noted that director David Fincher is making a movie (due to come out winter of 2007) about this murderer and the case surrounding it. 
I was unsure as to where to put these dates and if they fitted within the "Deaths" category, so these facts are currently in the date of death's articles (Sept. 23, Feb. 23, 1938) linked within the 23 article.
--Endtro 06:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleveland Torso Murderer 

message: what about this, the war in iraq began march 23, 2003 at exactly 2:30 pm
:No, it didn't. The 2003 invasion of Iraq began on 19 March, 2003 and was officially announced a bit later on the 20th. Quit making up stuff. EvilCouch 10:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So it was announced 3/20/2003, there are a couple of 23's peeking out of that. 12.106.111.10 18:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  another thing 

message: I added the OR and Unreferenced tags.  I think it's self-explanatory.  This page has a LOT of random examples of the appearance of permutations of the number 23, which have been synthesized by editors (the very definition of OR) into a larger meaning, without any references.  -Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 04:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags 

message: I vote this page should be deleted.  It's complete and utter nonsense.  
If it were to be cleaned up it should deal with the concept of the title - specifically why the number 23 is a significant number in some peoples opinion.  This useless insane trivia being posted here is pathetic.  
If the article is about the "23 enigma" it should discuss how some people will make every attempt to link any data they can find to the number 23.  Specific instances ad-nauseum are not required.
I'll attempt a cleanup, but this is pretty bad. --66.129.44.244 03:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Earlier I did suggest making 2 pages: one on the 23 Enigma which only mentions the cases people like RAW have deemed significant (as this shouldn't be a random accumulation of stuff which may or may not amount to 23) and 23 in popular culture which looks at the various references to it in books, films and music. As it stands this entry has been hacked back to the edge of pointlessness and refocusing it may help drag it out of the mire. (Emperor 03:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  23 Enigma is not the same as 23 numerology 

message: Over the last few months much had been deleted from this article, and much of that has been unknowingly and will eventually be restored with much clean up needed.  This is now nothing to what is was before.  23 (number) has more.  I suggest either merging this and some of its exellent, but deleted, history into 23 (number), or simplifying that a lot and moving it with some of the restored history here.  Simply an explanation of the enigma will not work.  With concensus, I'll be happy to do the merging.  Reywas92Talk 21:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Hello?  If no one else has an opinion in a week, I would like  to cut much of 23 (number) and move it here, along with a very selective portion of this page's history.  I can make sure that this won't become indiscriminate and won't copy everything there is, but compared to before, this seems like we are starting over.  Reywas92Talk 21:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No thankyou.  Please do the opposite.  If there is any salvageable content here, put it in 23 (number) (which itself should be trimmed).  The last thing we need is this sort of rubbish spreading.  Chris cheese whine 02:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent deletions and bad additions in occurences 

message: I don't think picking out a few interesting sporting achievements where the athlete happened to be wearing number 23 is noteworthy at all - there are <insert large number here>'s more where the person was not wearing 23. Do we set up pages for all the records achieved by people wearing number 6, or 28, or GA? I see the reference to Michael Jordan has already gone and, if there are no reasonable objections, I will remove the Super Bowl reference too. Secret Squïrrel 05:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Query re sporting coincidences 

message: As the number 23 appears in nature I added a Nature section and added a few wrongfully removed facts.    If movie, music, and sports posts that are done purposfully because of the 23 enigma are ok, a few basic nature facts should be included aswell. 
Phishybongwaters 16:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added Nature Section 

message: "You have achieved Discordian enlightenment when you realize that, while the goddess Eris and the Law of Fives are not literally true, neither is anything else." - R.A.W. in Cosmic Trigger
:Way cool quote..:) --Procrastinating@talk2me 18:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Point That Seems To Have Been Missed 

message: Anyone have a page number for their R.A. wilson quote? I'll try to look one up for the one I added later, but I'll have to hit the library. Wintermut3 08:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page number 

message: Fortean Times ran a repeat of an article on the number 23 in their April edition of 2007, it was by Robert Anton Wilson. Could be useful as a source perhaps?
The original was printed in issue 23 ;)
:Good spot. I'll ask about getting this online. It is worth noting it was printed on pages 22-23 ;) (Emperor 02:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK that is now online  and I've linked it in, hope it helps. Thanks for the nudge. (Emperor 12:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible source 

message: Carcurachudon Nimelemisis is a Googlewhack.  The only hit is this article.--QuestingVole 01:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carcurachudon Nimelemisis 

message: I just uploaded an image from Daria. Would it be appropriate to include it in the article as a use of the number 23? If not, I'll go ahead and delete it again from the servers. samwaltz 00:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image? 

message: "The '23 Enigma' is the Discordian belief that all events are connected to the number 23..."
Waitaminute... Just because Discordianism makes a big deal about 23 doesn't mean they own it or invented it.  They just adopted it, compiled some instances, and came up with some theories, and i guess promoted it.  People WERE obsessed with the number long before Discordianism, and there are plenty of people who are or have been so obsessed or interested and are not Discordians at all!  While 23 is a very prevalent Discordian idea, as Dicordianism is rather a dis-organized religion, it is by no means required dogma, and can easily be seen as not particularly necessary nor related to most other core Discordian beliefs.  Calling the 23 enigma a "Discordian" belief is like calling charity a Christian belief: technically true, but rather misleading, especially as a first sentance!P  Elgaroo 12:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  23 = Discordian? 

message: I think something should be said about the fact that the number 3 follows 2, as in 12345... and therefore more probable that these two numbers will show up next to each other than almost any other set of numbers. Any probability theorists out there? Sean 17:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sequential 

message: I noticed that there was no mention of the story of William S Burroughs encounter with Captain Clark which is cited on the Burroughs page as the origins of the 23 enigma.  209.248.160.82 (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no mention of Burroughs and Captain Clark? 

message: I moved the following paragraph to its own section, under the heading "biorhythms," but have now removed it altogether, and bring it here for discussion:
:A 23 day 'physical cycle' or biorhythym was postulated by Wilhelm Fliess, along with a 28 day 'emotional cycle'. By taking these numbers in combination Fliess was able to create the length of other cycles, for instance the length of a year.
First of all, this is unreferenced (and I found no reference for it in the Fliess article, either), it seems rather silly, and I am not sure it is truly relevant to the topic.  Any thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biorhythms 

message: Why is the 23 Enigma on the same page as 23 in Numerology? This is like putting Intelligent Design and Evolution on the same page. Does anyone intend to fix this? 71.89.8.194 02:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you explain what you mean further? Numerology is often used as a shorthand term for assigning a significance to a number and looking for occurrences of it, which is exactly what the 23 enigma does. If by your analogy you are implying that one of them is scientific, and the other (at best) pseudo-scientific then I think most people would disagree (and suggest both were pseudo-science/pseudo-mathematics). --Neo 09:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was under the impression that the 23 Enigma is a specific mutation of numerology that only applies to 23 - but not concerned with the number's significance or meaning (typical association of the term "numerology") so much as its perceived prevalence. So, it could be mentioned, but probably should have a separate page so it doesn't clog a more general "in numerology" one.4.238.21.144 17:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why 

message: There seems to be too much detail in the Lost paragraph.  Perhaps it should be trimmed, and/or references provided that each of the 23's is notable?  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 14:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is all original research.  The other items in the "cultural references" section are unreferenced, which is certainly a problem, but they are, at least, direct allusions to the enigma, inspired by either William S. Burroughs or Robert Anton Wilson.  There is no evidence that all these appearances of 23 in Lost are meaningful or intentional. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:07, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lost