Talk:Ian Smith

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Was Smith Agriculture minister as well as president? Wizzy…☎ 18:01, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t believe so, no. (He wasn’t president either, he was prime minister.) Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  19:14, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Agriculture

message: Would this image from a campaign poster in 1964 be Public Domain since it os over 50 years old and presumably locally produced? Kges1901 (talk) 14:42, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry, have only seen this now. If there’s no identifiable author then I think so. Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  07:41, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox image replacement 

message: This article currently says this:
in the following year helped [...] form the all-white, firmly conservative Rhodesian Front (RF), which called for independence without an immediate shift to black majority rule.
If the shift to majority rule was to be one in which the right to vote did not depend on race, then it should not be called be called "black majority rule", but simply "majority rule". Michael Hardy (talk) 20:04, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed. Will change this —  Cliftonian (talk)  07:31, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "majority rule" 

message: The article is very well written being richly detailed and well cited. It does, however, does engage in the whitewashing of the Rhodesian state with very little of its content being devoted to his government negative policies and in times it takes a far too favourable view of his actions letting his dubious claims stand unchallenged. Zubin12 (talk) 03:48, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it does. Indeed the first section about his tenure as PM clearly talks about his crackdowns on the black nationalist organisations and bans. The Royal C (talk) 10:13, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

text: specifically how do you feel it’s a whitewash and which policies do you think are not mentioned or expanded upon sufficiently? If there are specific examples we’ve missed I’d be very pleased to see them added in. Which actions/policies do you think are viewed far too favourably? We quote his points of view, explanations etc as part of this biographical portrait of him but that isn’t the same as agreeing with him. And I think there is a fair bit of challenging to all this in the legacy section, for example. The article more than once has people call him racist, stupid etc. Hope this helps. Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  07:40, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

text: I'd also point out that this article is about Smith, not his government or the history of the country.  To be sure, there are overlaps among these topics, but specific criticism of the government's policies, etc., is better directed to those pages, with a reference or two here. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 15:36, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

text: , I couldn't disagree more with your claim that the article is "too sympathetic" to Ian Smith (although I do agree with your assessment that the article is "well written, richly detailed and well cited"). The article is perfectly neutral, and presents the facts without editorializing; it also provides adequate context for such facts by presenting opinions of Smith's contemporaries regarding his life, views and work.  There are plenty of fora in the Internet to express one's disapproval of Smith's policies and of white-ruled Rhodesia generally, but an encyclopedia article is not the proper place for that. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 15:41, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Without a response from  and consensus appearing to be against the claim, I have removed the template. The Royal C (talk) 07:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Far Too Sympathetic and even White-Washing in places. 

message: I've raised this issue before but due to reasons stemming from lack of time I had to drop it, but I'm going to push on now that I have more time. The narrative given by this article is highly misleading and whitewashing at times, attempting to present Smith as a moderate in favour of racial equality that was demonized by unfair critics. It heavily relies on biographies written by those sympathetic to white supremacy and takes great pains to contextualise any statements he makes where he demonstrates racism but no such care is taken when instead violence or instability is blamed on "black nationalists" which this article seeks to point as the main cause of Rhodesia many failings. There is no discussion in this article regarding the war crimes committed by Rhodesia during the Bush War which Smith oversaw. The article is undoubtedly through and well-written but that is perhaps it's greatest failing, as in that broadness it paints a very selective and not-consensual view of Smith that ignores the majority of academics that point to the state as it was, a white supremacists warzone. 
Zubin12 (talk) 14:29, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, can you please be more specific about examples and historians? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:21, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: 
Ok, there is no discussion of the segregation present in Rhodesia under Smith despite the fact that it underpinned the society that he fought to maintain. There is little mention of Rhodesias use of biological weapons and chemical weapons during the bush war or the resulting death toll. The land apporimtnet act is also missing despite the fact that its reservation of the majority of agricultural land for the white minority drove opposition to his regime. Zubin12 (talk) 08:41, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

text: Stop trying to push your point of view. You removed all the pro-Smith stuff from the opening paragraphs, but left all the anti-Smith stuff in. If we are to say what his detractors thought, we should also say what his supporters thought. PopesTouch (talk) 07:36, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The views of his detractors aren't fairly put in proportion with their prevalence among general scholarships surrounding Smith. Zubin12 (talk) 08:05, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not true. The academic consensus around Smith is more positive than negative, and this article gives equal weight to both perspectives. You tried this before in August 2018, and other editors rejected it. PopesTouch (talk) 08:13, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Citation needed for the claim that consensus regarding Ian Smith is positive given that both his goal, to maintain a white-dominant goverment( Which this article tries to brush over) where they possed legal privileges and disspraopinate power over the vast majority is considered abhorrent. And his method of engaging in a hopeless campaign futile. Zubin12 (talk) 08:21, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  "His goals were abhorrent and his methods were futile" are opinions, not facts. You and your friend have been at this for over a year - give it up. PopesTouch (talk) 08:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  They are the consensus on Smith by modern historians who reject the values he aim to make. An uncritical article such as this that attempts to whitewash the actions of the subject matter must be changed. Zubin12 (talk) 08:41, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are clearly reading biased sources, since other editors (like the ones you asked about this in August 2018 above) agree with me. PopesTouch (talk) 08:52, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not an argument, it's an appeal to popularity, and if you are certain that you are in the majority launch an RFC to resolve this dispute. Zubin12 (talk) 14:30, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I already started a dispute resolution process PopesTouch (talk) 02:18, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, you have not managed to start the dispute resolution process yet. As you by now have been told repeatedly, the process will not start until you have given the necessary notifications. --T*U (talk) 10:50, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

text:  You have not. No RFC has been started Zubin12 (talk) 08:01, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading Narrative presented in this article 

message: buidhe 11:20, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAR for Rhodesia's Unilateral Declaration of Independence 

message: This article is extensive and well-written. However, while not overtly biased or racist, the writer seems to hold a romantic nostalgia for Smith and Rhodesia as a whole, and does not recognize the extremely important racial aspect of his government. It presents a narrative of his life from a strictly "colonial" perspective. It downplays his role in the white supremacist government and leads the reader to believe that he was incapable of changing any of it. Most critiques of Smith seem to be mentioned only in the passing, followed by two paragraphs of soft appraisal. To an outside reader, it would seem that Rhodesia's only problem was "black communists." Billie Lean (talk) 22:39, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Tagged the article for POV pushing. For starters, we need to describe Ian Smith as a white supremacist and reduce the unnecessary appreciation of his rule that makes ultimately no sense in the light of mainstream coverage about him. Capitals00 (talk) 08:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, it sounds as if you wish to take a NPOV article and make it POV (including by describing Smith as a "white supremacist," which has been tried before and ruled to be incorrect and POV by a Wikipedia neutral arbiter), all in the name of fighting "POV pushing."  Please provide examples of "POV pushing" in the current version of this article, which is properly sourced and balanced to present a full picture of a controversial figure during a time of great social change.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Except acknowledging the reality that he was a white supremacist is essential to maintaining an unbiased history, just as we would hopefully not whitewash the racism of men like David Duke or George Wallace. I provided examples of POV pushing. We have to portray him as he was. He was very much in favor of white rule. Billie Lean (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: , I agree that we have to present the subject of the article as he was, but that does not mean that we should use pejoratives that do not describe him accurately.  If you read this article's Talk page, there has been ample discussion regarding the particular point of whether Smith was a "white supremacist" as the term generally is defined--someone who believes that whites are a superior race than members of other races--and the conclusion has been, time and again, that he did not meet that definition.  Smith believed that, *in Rhodesia*, where whites had a much higher level of education and skills and where the white majority paid the lion's share of contributions to the public fisc, and where surrounding countries that had adopted "one person, one vote" had become dictatorships without any meaningful elections after the first one, that whites should continue to elect the majority of the representatives in the legislature until such time as blacks reached 50% of educated persons in the country.  Smith's views are abhorrent by the standards of today, and even back then were subject to fair criticism (which criticism is described in the article), but it did not make him a "white supremacist."  The article, as currently written, is NPOV, and throwing in an inapposite pejorative would turn it into a POV article.  Of course, you have the right to seek another RfC (or another third-party arbitrator) if you wish to make the changes that you believe are necessary, but please keep in mind that Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not an expression wall.  AuH2ORepublican (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You obviously have a very bizarre fascination with Smith, since you've been vehemently defending under every post. TLDR. Billie Lean (talk) 18:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

text: I'd agree with the comments here. The article doesn't reflect the tone or content of modern scholarship on Smith, which is generally quite critical of him. The article tends to portray him as an old-fashioned and well meaning but ultimately unsuccessful politician. In contrast, the modern literature has a focus on how Smith manoeuvred the country into UDI, his racist policies and the unattractive nature of the government he led and his badly flawed personal governing style. Nick-D (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

text: Personally lean towards the article being in line with how encyclopedic entries of historical colonial era figures are written. Perhaps a section on modern reflection's of Smith's premiership could be added, but it seems a stretch to question the neutrality of the author. Certainly little need for a fundamental rewrite.Spilia4 (talk) 18:16, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Spilia4, this article seems, on the whole, well-balanced, and includes various perspectives on Smith, including from his contemporaries. It would be interesting/helpful to include some additional info about more recent perspectives and scholarship on Smith, but I would caution again placing undue weight on certain perspectives over others. I disagree that the tone of the whole article is biased, nor do I think it needs a full overhaul. Like all articles on controversial and polarising figures like Smith, it may just require some updates and tweaking to reflect the time passed since this article was first written. We must be careful not to let our biases take over, or lean towards parroting biases present in sources (particularly more recent ones) that are influenced by trends that are likely to take an automatically entirely negative view of Smith.Siegfried Nugent (talk) 09:42, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

text: This article was in really good shape a few years ago, and was even officially considered a good article, but editors with an anti-Western bias have been trying to chip away at it for years. Wikipedia is not the place for black nationalist crusades. A fair assessment of Smith is that he was a good man who understood the folly of applying one man, one vote to a country where a majority of the population contributed very little to the fisc and was too primitive and tribal to participate effectively in modern democracy. His goal was always an equal power-sharing between White and Black, but only once they contributed equally to the fisc. Zimbabwe's descent into sh*thole status speaks for itself. If modern Zimbabweans want to write a biased negative article about Smith, they are welcome to do so on their own Shona and Matabele Wikipedias. DieOuTransvaal (talk) 07:49, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: "A fair assessment of Smith is that he was a good man who understood the folly of applying one man, one vote to a country where a majority of the population contributed very little to the fisc and was too primitive and tribal to participate effectively in modern democracy. His goal was always an equal power-sharing between White and Black, but only once they contributed equally to the fisc." If this is your mindset and view of , I highly doubt that the article was in as good a shape as you claim. There is so much left out there; how Rhodesia's political system was set up, the legacy of British colonialism, and also an actual critical lens of what Ian Smith actually believed in. I do not want to whitewash or defend Zimbabwe's current situation or the premiership of Mugabe, but the reality is very VERY different.  R3troguy420 (talk) 18:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for article overhaul 

message: I'm not very familiar with this article, but it showed up on a list of high talk page activity and it's clear that nearly every quarter, an editor decides that there is an issue with "narrative". Repeatedly, the consensus seems to be that there are well-supported sources.
If you're considering making changes, please read through the talk page history to make sure what you're proposing hasn't been proposed before DenverCoder9 (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please read talk page before making changes