Talk:Massacre of Lviv professors

message: Faustian please do not provoke an edit war by restoring this exceptional claim that the professors were murdered because they wre Soviet collaborators. Please present SOURCES (SOURCES with an “s” at the end) that confirm the claim. If this is true it should not be difficult to find the sources. So far you FAILED to provide any sources other that ONE questionable PDF article in Ukrainian language nobody can even read. Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 15:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry that you have chosen to remove information taken from a relaible source.Faustian (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

text: I am restoring the text. I will not edit war - if someone chooses to censor it again I will have no choice but to take it up elsewhere. This is at least the second warning.Faustian (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  We are still in the process of building up a census, your constant declarations that you are right and/or that you will do this or that are boring. Why don't you channel all that energy in trying to find some sources for your extraordinary claims? J.kunikowski (talk) 17:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing extraordinary about the fact that Patrilyak in his book published by the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences stated that "....". This is what the article says. It says "According to Patrilyak..." As we see, Patrilyak has been deemed to be a reliable source whose works are worthy of attention and of inclusion. I'm trying to compromise as much as possible, without censoring information. I am not saying that those professors did cooperate, I including in the article the fact that Patrilyak said they did. I also included the statement from a Polish newspaper that they did not. As I said, I'm trying to be as cooperative as possible here but a line I will not cross is to censor information from reliable sources - to keep it off wikipedia. Faustian (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing extraordinary about the fact
Then you will have no problem finding source that contain this information and doesn't speak about "anti-colonial struggle" of OUN or understandable "hatred of Jews".--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

text:  Faustian, like I said before, the question then becomes one of due weight. If you have 1000 Polish+English+Russian/Soviet historians not detected any "active cooperation" then it's not clear why should the article mention 1 source you have found. J.kunikowski (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Unfortunetely this seems the only option since Faustian insists on branding those victims as "Soviet cooperators" desptie being proven otherwise by sourced information and introducting biased sourced describing the Nazi collaborationists OUN as engaging in "anti-colonial struggle".
--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing "biaased" about claiming that the OUN was enagegd in an anticolonial struggle and that their collaboration with the Nazis was part of that struggle. I have books by Timothy Snyder published by Yale saying that, too. Feel free to try to report me for refusing to allow you to censor information that has been deemed reliable and worthy of onclusion by nuetral editors on the reliable sources noticeboard.Faustian (talk) 17:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing "biaased" about claiming that the OUN was enagegd in an anticolonial struggle Wait wait, how did the murder of Jews constitute "anti-colonial struggle"-Jews were neither colonists nor Ukraine was their colony."and worthy of onclusion" nobody wrote that Faustian. In fact editors wrote that biased source shouldn't be used.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't read: here: In reply to Faustian from above, if the material isn't contained in the English language Marples, then there is no problem with sourcing it from the equally scholarly and reliable Patrylyak. Fifelfoo (talk) 16:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

text:  Faustian please, provide a citation from Snyder then. I read some of his books and I don't recall such conclusions. J.kunikowski (talk) 17:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't recall him writing that the OUN/UPA were fighting for independence or that the Ukrainians saw the Poles as colonizers?Faustian (talk) 18:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

text: How was murdering Jews or children "fight for independence"?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Faustian, one thing is how the Ukrainians saw the Poles and completely another what kind of struggle were OUN/UPA involved it. Above you claimed the following: Nothing "biased" about claiming that the OUN was enagegd in an anticolonial struggle and that their collaboration with the Nazis was part of that struggle. I don't remember Snyder writing anywhere that collaboration with the Nazis was part of the struggle. J.kunikowski (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So he didn't write about them joining the police and helping the Nazis kill 200,000 Jews, then using the skills they learned to murder Poles? I remember him writing that, because I used his book to write this chapter:.Faustian (talk) 18:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are using a text you yourself wrote to claim something is true? Really Faustian, that is not how Wikipedia works.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

text:  He did write that, but you were claiming something different above, specifically he did not write about anti-colonial struggle as far as I recall. J.kunikowski (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war 

message: I shortened the fringe theory about Nazi collaborationists OUN per WP:Fringe--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any other board that deals with the exceptional claims or extreme material being introduced on Wikipiedia?--Jacurek (talk) 17:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so, things like Holocaust denial or glorification of Naiz collaboration are usually removed, although I have seen subtle introduction of such claims that can't be easy spotted by people without indepth knowledge.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Kind of wierd to describe as a "fringe belief" a statement published by the Academy of Sciences of the country where the events took place, written by a historian from that country's National University.  Good luck with that approach. And try not to smear the author not other editors as people "glorifying" Nazi collaboration. That isn't very nice.Faustian (talk) 18:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Professors all over the world have fringe theories. If its not a fringe theory you won't have any problems presenting more sources dealing precisely with the murder(rather than just describing views of Nazi collaboration movement) presenting this information.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:Fringe theories 

message: I propose legacy section where we can add the post-war efforts to remember the victims and Ukrainian reactions to those efforts.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt with a picture gallery of every example of vandalism by hooligans or provocateurs?Faustian (talk) 18:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What provocateurs? What are you writing about?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Something about a new monument could be added:   - a common initiative of Lviv and Wroclaw mayors--Hedviberit (talk) 21:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I propose legacy section 

message: Please note that one of significant contributors to this talk page, User:J.kunikowski, has been confirmed by CU evidence as a topic-ban evading sockpuppet of User:Loosmark and both accounts have been indef-blocked. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Loosmark/Archive and WP:AN#Ban discussion: Loosmark and sockpuppeting for details. Nsk92 (talk) 07:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: Can somebody find a ref for this location, and more about it? I am not finding much, there was a Wulka street, later renameed to Boy-Zelenski street... but "Wulka hills" are drawing a blank, in English and Polish. Some other Polish sources talk of "Wzgórza Wuleckie" ("Wuleckie hills") but that term is not used in English. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wulka hills 

message: Is the list of victims really necessary here? Per WP:MEMORIAL, it should probably be removed, especially because the vast majority of those links are red. Perhaps it can be replaced with a paragraph that includes some of the people that we do have articles on. —howcheng  {chat} 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victim list 

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message: Earlier I removed two sentences, one consisting of a victim-blaming denial with absolutely no credibility (that dozens of University professors had no involvement in politics, as if that mattered to the Nazis' goal of killing all Polish elites) and another that Ukrainians were not to blame because the Poles deserved death for cooperating with the Soviets (which is both unprovable and again does not matter since it was the Nazi goal to eliminate all elites to forestall any resistance). The user who reverted my edits also reverted my adjustment to the coordinates at the same time, suggesting that they did their revert without enough care. Abductive (reasoning) 19:05, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:IDONTLIKEIT.--Lute88 (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:UNDUE, get your filth out. Abductive (reasoning) 02:55, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victim-blaming and apologist garbage