Talk:Damour massacre

message: :Here's some of the references I looked at;
 .
BTW, according to those references, the Damour massacre is what later led to the Sabra and Shatila massacre. --Gramaic | Talk 18:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  references

message: This article is fairly inaccurate and grossly fulled of POVs. It needs to be reviewed. For example; there's misinformation, vagueness and contradiction as to whom committed the massacre.
The article states that the PLO and LVM are the ones who committed it while the real perpetrator were the As-Sa'iqa. The article goes on describing the horrible details of mutilation in an inflammatory manner inadequate to an Encyclopedia.WisamFarouk (talk) 13:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccurate and full POVs 

message: Ian Pitchford, can you please tell why you keep deleting this section. What is stated in that section is a fact. You said in the summary "for which no references have been provided." I provided sources, and you deleted them. I would never add anything to an article if it did not have sources. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 20:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Incident" section 

message: I replaced the anonymous Geocities link with a link to this Lebanese Christian website. It's exactly the same material, but claimed by the organization rather than just left floating out in cyberspace. The Geocities page was from an earlier effort by the same people who later created Cedarland.org Babajobu 20:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cedarland.org

message: Here's a source I found as I searched through Amazon.com. To let everyone know ahead of time, the pictures shown on that site are quite graphic and disturbing. --Gramaic | Talk 08:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: An encyclopedia should be comprehensive, authoritative and cite relevant scholarly sources. Inaccurate web pages full of POV commentary don't qualify as "sources" in this context. How reliable can the pages be when they both have the date wrong? It will be a considerable boon to all interested in this event if we can find and list appropriate scholarly sources. --Ian Pitchford 15:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a hard time believing that multiple Lebanese Christian websites get the date wrong on a massacre of Lebanese Christians, and only Mr. Pitchford's "honorable white liberals" get it right. There's got to be more to this. However, I do agree that these should probably not be listed as sources...but they are definitely appropriate as external links. The aggrieved community's account of its own butchering is absolutely relevant. Babajobu 15:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you think of any reason why the date might be deliberately inaccurate? --Ian Pitchford 15:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I can, yes, but I can also imagine why sources favored by Robert of Arabia may have fudged the date, too. In general "when the swarthy colonials disagree, just ask Sahib Robert (or whoever is the nearest white male) what actually occured" is not a good strategy for getting at the truth. I'd like to see more sources before concluding that all the Lebanese Christians are lying because Sahib Robert said so. Babajobu 15:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mordechai Nisan concurs and Fisk's account is eyewitness, not derived from "sources". --Ian Pitchford 16:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Eyewitness? Were the Palestinians pulling him there on a rickshaw so he could observe the silly little locals massacre one another, "good show, good show, sport"? How was he an eyewitness? Regardless, if it is true, and if it true that the family members of the massacred Lebanese are engaged in a cynical political disinformation campaign, I still think their account of their own communal butchering is notable as a link. Babajobu 16:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sure we both want to assist readers by finding good sources and citing them - let's concentrate on that. --Ian Pitchford 16:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay. Babajobu 16:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. I seem to remember there's something about a link between Damour and Sabra and Chatila in Friedman's 'From Beirut to Jerusalem', though he gets the date wrong too (Feb 1976). I'll check later. --Ian Pitchford 16:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I added the links to the pictures. They don't show any decapitations, mutilations or dismemberments. These events could have occurred, but I haven't yet been able to find any reliable references to them. --Ian Pitchford 14:20, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I must have followed Gramaic's link, which included pictures of children with their limbs removed. Is that link not in the article? Actually, if we do put it in the article, it needs not to be a hypertext link, and has to include a warning. Babajobu 15:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm willing to stick with your version, but I still sense a "sahib Robert is right, other people are wrong or lying to the extent that they deviate from sahib Robert's account" mentality here. If there were a Palestinian account of the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, would you head the link that this was "an extremely partisan and contentious account" of the massacre. I think the link should just state that it is a Falangist account. Babajobu 15:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Phalangist account is inaccurate - just read the opening sentence. --Ian Pitchford 16:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: About the mutilating and maiming, if the link I provided above is not enough proof that such incidents took place during the massacre, I don't know what is! Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 19:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mr. Pitchford, you've stated it so that "some sources claim" that people were mutilated. How is that you are not convinced by the pictures of mutilated bodies? To me this is equivalent to stating regarding the Sabra and Shatilla massacre that "some sources claim that people were killed." Do you think that would be appropriate? Babajobu 01:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: You can find father Labaky's testimony on a lot of websites (some versions are slightly different because people edit the text). After some research I was able to find its origin: The PLO by Jillian Becker.  --equitor 05:15, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
*"Nisan, M. (2003). The Conscience of Lebanon: A Political Biography of Etienne Sakr (Abu-Arz)." A biography by an Israeli of a leader of an Israeli proxy-militia is hardly a reliable source. It should be removed. FunkMonk (talk) 15:54, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources of information 

message: I added a statement to the article, about the church being used as a repair garage and a target practice. But I also added "Other sources claim" at the beginning of the statement so we can remain NPOV. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 20:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church in Damour 

message: The text is "wrapped" around the small square Table of Context box in order to avoid ugly gaping holes of blank space. Try alternatives yourself and see the effect. "TOCleft" is preferably, unless there are reasons for setting it at the right. There is currently an editor going about making a mess of carefully formatted articles to satisfy some obscure personal agenda. --Wetman 21:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Formatting

message: Do we need this link in the "External links" section? It talks about Lebanon, but there's no mention of even the word Damour itself. --Gramaic | Talk 00:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BBC link 

message: The intro refers to 
:the combined forces of the Lebanese National Movement, which consisted of Palestinians from the Fatah, Habash and Hawatmeh movements
This isn't what the LNM consisted of at all, although the Palestinian groups mentioned were allied to the LNM all right. This needs to be fixed. 
Also, the peculiar reference to the "Habash and Hawatmeh movements" should be changed to "the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine" if these groups were indeed involved. Palmiro | Talk 12:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We've all been struggling with the paucity of sources here. If you have something useful you should go ahead and add it. --Ian Pitchford 18:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't realize that "Habash" here actually referred to George Habash, founder and leader of the PFLP. Makes sense, I'll change the reference. Babajobu 19:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Introduction makes more sense. That's a good change. --Gramaic | Talk 00:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  forces who carried out the massacre 

message: The claim that none of the 349 remaining villagers survived seems to contrast with the broader range of possible victims given in the introduction. I wouldn't know which one is correct, but I guess the wiser thing to do would be to remove the "349" from that sentence, if it is known that there were no prisoners taken. Arre 04:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction?

message: The citation for 1000 dead at Karantina is from 111101.net, basically a literary webzine based in Beirut. They do not provide a citation for their number. I'm not saying the number is wrong; I am saying that it could use a better citation. - Jmabel | Talk 04:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weak citation 

message: I have reverted to the version of 14 March 2007. This was massively rewritten on 17 March, with what appears to be a straight plagiarism of the uncited and rather biased www.cedarland.org/damour.html. - Jmabel | Talk 05:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very dubious edit (& probably copyvio) reverted 

message: PLO guerrillas locked in the women and children before lighting the church on fire.
Strange annotation seeing as the picture is of the South Lebanese Army HQ in Damour. It is also strange that the reasoning for choosing to attack Damour is missing from the article....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it overlooked? By the time of Damour, there had already been the Tel al-Zaatar and Karantina massacres, which are arguably even more overlooked. The fact is, the massacre on Palestinians like the Sabra Shatila one were on a much larger scale, therefore it might, deservedly, have gotten more attention. The Israelis and Kataeb could have bought the media just as well as the PLO did, certainly had the resources for it.  FunkMonk (talk) 11:49, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find reliable sources describing those as massacres, well, you should create articles about every single one of them instead of complaining about them not being covered. That's how Wikipedia works, after all. I doubt the scale of the massacres you list are anything near the three ones I mentioned, and that's what I meant by "scale", not the number of alleged massacres. There were more minor massacres on Palestinians as well, just like there were more minor massacres on Maronites. But nothing done against the Maronites compares to what was done to the Palestinians in scale. You haven't explained any details on these massacres, only given a list, which doesn't really help much. And again, don't tell me the Israelis wouldn't be able to help the maronites with propaganda, they did so in many other cases, and supported them financially as well. FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

text: I neither accused you of lying or of being Maronie. All I'm asking for is reliable sources. And maye some numbers, to put things into perspective. FunkMonk (talk) 00:43, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture annotation

message: The Syrians were not PLO supporters. Fact Syria had a PLO purge in syria at this time....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Syrian

message: I read this section, and reviewed the low-speed edit war in the lede. I thought perhaps something giving high and low estimates would work. But when I checked the sources, it turned out that this one:  http://www.al-akhbar.com/ar/node/173626 , the one that Propagandist and the IPs have been trying to use, does not respond. Temporary? If not, it has to go. And in any event, the other sources are reliable, and should be restored. Jd2718 (talk) 15:44, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. FunkMonk (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Link? 

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thread_title: File:Damour.png Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title: File:Christian man in Lebanon.png Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Its WP:SYNTH to combine Fisk calling it an act of ethnic cleansing and the ICTJ report, which never once calls it ethnic cleansing, to connect the quote with Fisk's usage of that term. Im moving the quote to the body, and attributing to Fisk "ethnic cleansing" as that does not appear to be the common way of referring to this massacre, or any in Lebanon really. Im also restoring that it was revenge for an earlier massacre. nableezy - 19:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "empty the city" 

message: There are numerous dead links, including to sites that seem to have a partisan bias. 2600:4040:6068:9B00:C81A:A64D:F2B2:BA28 (talk) 01:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page lacks adequate sourcing.