Talk:Ninja/Archive 1

message: "A common misconception is that ninja are only japanese. In fact, equivalents existed in East Asian cultures; China, Korea, and Japan. Ninja are, in fact, their own ethnicity."  However, its has been decided that no one gives a flying rat's ass, as Pirates PWN ninjas.
How is this true?  Sure, ninja commonly originate in clans and are group based, but they're still of asian decent, to call it ethnicity is... well... ignorant.  Of Ninja decent, sure, but not ethnicity.
Think about it, are Knights or soldiers or hunter-gatherers in Africa their own ethnicity?  No, they're the ethnicity of their people, not their family occupation.
As such, I'm satirically altering it to atleast make it funny.
If you feel like altering it otherwise, make sure it's atleast not a retarded statement.
Until then, let me restate it in simplist terms.  Ninja is an ethnicity akin to Jew.  Meaning that it's not.  You can be of Jewish decent, or Armenian, Russian, so on and so forth, but that is not your ethnicity, otherwise I, personally, would have five ethnicities to my name.
Ethnicity is not the same as Ethnic Background.
:Excellent point. Not ever guerilla fighter or espionage agent is a ninja. There are things like cultural and historic background,etc, to take into account as well. Dessydes 17:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnicity?

message: The main character's superior officer refers to him directly as a "ninja" in the first installment of this game series. --66.0.121.196 22:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So?Toxic Ninja 03:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Splinter Cell

message: Hi, I've merged some content from Ninja in western fiction according to the VfD results there. I've merged the extra content in the Ninja in fiction section. --Deathphoenix 00:58, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging content from [[Ninja in western fiction]] 

message: Is the jounin/chunin/genin info in this article under Culture of Ninja for real?  What's the source?  I don't believe this is common knowledge, and it sounds suspiciously like some made up detail from Naruto.
:I was wondering that myself, too, but it seems that at least Stephen K. Hayes mentions those ranks in his book Ninja: Spirit of the Shadow Warrior (1980). —Noldis 19:10:53, 2005-08-02 (UTC)
:I suspect that's where it's from.  It is common for skills to be organized into three groups, ge (beginning techniques), chu (middle techniques), and jo (advanced techniques), and for each to be mastered before moving on.  I've never, ever heard anyone be called jounin, chunin, or genin though. --Fri Oct 14 18:05:57 UTC
I agree. I have been training in the art of ninzukaijutsu almost a decade and my comrades and I have never stumbled apon such ranks. I honestly would believe it to be from Naruto. 
--Sýn B. Tues March 26 2006 09:10:53
For what it's worth, issue seven of the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles comic has Leonardo refer to Splinter as "Jonin".  According to the official website, www.ninjaturtles.com, this issue was printed May 1986.  The Wiki entry on Naruto has the original run as starting in 1999.  Now, of course, TMNT is also fictional, though American fiction, but I think this proves that at least one of the ranks given in Naruto predates Naruto.  I make no claim as to the validity of the ranks in true history.
-sntint@yahoo.com
Your right about ge chu and jos' meaning, but 'nin' means: 1) endurance, perseverance, forbearance 2) stealth, secretiveness, concealment; also shinobi. So combining 'nin' whit ge, chu or jo gives the the three ninja ranks, Genin (Operative), Chunin (Organisers) and Jonin (General, Master, etc.) I hope that this may have answered your questions. If you would like to talk to me about ninja ranks, feel free to e-mail me.
Crazy_j_1515@yahoo.com
All of this sounds like naruto bullshit.Toxic Ninja 03:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninja Ranks 

message: Ninja play an important role in the first major story arc of the hilarious The Tick comic book. This should be included...
I disagree. As much as I may like the tick (SPOON!) if we were to include a reference as esoteric as this, we would be somewhat obliged to include jsut about every ninja reference ever made. Shaggorama 12:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The TicK??? 

message: Yes, there are modern ninja, but it is not commonly know, do to the fact that most government around the world would force us to disband.
: that really sounds like bullshido to me.
===in Africa...===
===in the U.S.A.===
Main clans:
*Ninja Buddy Ninja clan
*super duper Ninja clan
I agree. African rebels don't class as 'ninja'. Seriphyn 18:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  modern ninja? 

message: Main clans:
*Ninja Buddy Ninja clan
*super duper Ninja clan
I agree. African rebels don't class as 'ninja'. Seriphyn 18:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: in the U.S.A.

message: User 209.86.9.45 vandalised Ninja between 20:24 and 20:48 (UTC), 8 August 2005 (NINJA TURTLES LIKE PIZZA!!! OMG!!! LOL!!!) --Taejo 20:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Well, I'll have to agree and disagree with some of you anonymous people. I agree that the shuriken was one of the ninja's two main weapons, that's just a historical fact, ninjas were more known and feared for throwing weapons than anyone else during their period of history, and could have possibly invented the practice in Asia. While I agree that the Bo shuriken could certainly be used to kill, and that shurikens were used both as a distraction and as weapons (except I think needles is a bit of a kind word to describe the Bo shuriken, heavy spike, or something with a little more oomf would work better). You need to understand, ninjas were sort of like the world's first recorded special forces units. They were often undercover, in disguise, or (as depicted in popular culture) concealed entirely, and usually grossly outnumbered. So the weapons they carried needed to be light (so they could carry a lot of them), and dangerous enough to kill or seriously maim a man. And, yes, they could definitely kill people with shurikens. Why would they carry them just to distract people? That's ridiculous, they're outnumbered 100 to 1, its kill or be killed. It's not an issue of whether you could glance someone with a shuriken or not, its an issue of whether a ninja could hit a dude in the leg just to slow him down, or in the eye socket to kill him. Ninjas could, its what they did, its what they trained to do, though, I doubt we could today. Also, if you're thinking shurikens as in 'ninja-stars' probably didn't exist during the time of real ninjas. Here's why. Like you said, it would be difficult to graze someone with an object spinning at 270 degree intervals. That is a common misconception. Shurikens, specifically Bo shurikens were not designed to be spinning as they flew through the air, they were single-tipped spikes. Single tipped means they were designed to fly in a straight line, like an arrow or a dart, and hit their target dead on. How is that possible? You might ask. Because, unlike an arrow, shurikens would only be used at distances of about 10 or 15 yards. Ninja stars are modern-invented "shurikens" designed so you could throw them in spinning intervals and still hit your target. But shurikenjistu, practiced by the real shinobis and ninjas was an art, because they threw their bos and kunais in straght, unspinning shots at their targets. But why use the shuriken at such a short distance? Because the ninja's other main weapon, a wakizashi, would not fare as well against a soldier with a katana or a yari. Yes, they used wakizashi, not a katana or some fictional sword called a ninjato, but most likely a wakizashi, because it was light, could be concealed better and also because they could carry a wakizashi in a katana saya, and trick their opponents into thinking it would take them longer to draw their katana, when they really had a wakizashi, allowing them to draw and attack much faster, and with more surprise. Anyway, if a guy is running at you with a sword or a spear, and all you have is a short sword, well, he's running right at you, so wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to throw a spike into his chest than try to parry his spear with your short sword? What's he going to do block the shuriken with his katana? Please. *Splat* ManofRenown87 01:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shurikens 

message: The photo represents a Korean martial-artist.  And as this discussion notes, the all black outfits are from dramatizations of ninja, and not true ninja.  Perhaps a change of caption, or a removal of the pic?
I agree, like get a pic from a ukiyo-e or something like that.
:The current photo is of Ashida Kim, who has been rather thoroughly debunked. Why not just use one of the montages with Hatsumi-san? Zuiram 00:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: I mean, my Kendo master explained us that Modern Ninjitsu lost a lot of it's essnce and that Ninjitsu was a secret art and was not supposed to be teached outside the ninjitsu circle and after the ninjas that learnt the secret arts started to disappear, Ninjitsu disappeared and a different one appeared, but doesn't rensemble the old secret ninjitsu. Is this true? Is ninjitsu a lot different than old times?--Vodka Martini, Shaken Not Stirred 19:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ask an old secret ninjitsu practitioner. --Spook` 13:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: On a more serious note, the reason for the existance of the Genbukan and Jinenkan organizations is that their respective founders felt that the Bujinkan had lost its essence. As for the "secret" arts, by which I assume you refer to the covert ops stuff, it wasn't really all that secret, as it quite simply belongs to a different era- it just isn't useful today. Zuiram 00:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Ninjitsu and Old Ninjitsu 

message: The video "Holy Shit! Ninjas!" (linked to from the ninja page) contains, among other things, a scene that is obviously based on "Badger Badger Badger", featuring guitar-playing ninjas. Does anyone know if there is a complete "Ninja Ninja Ninja" parody? If so, please add link to it. SpectrumDT 00:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninja Ninja Ninja (version of Badger Badger Badger) 

message: Check them out here. Is there any reference material supporting these edits? --nihon 08:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Weird new additions to the article

message: Reference the entry on shuriken "Ninja would use shuriken as more of a psychological weapon, throwing glancing blows that would cut instead of aiming for vitals" 
This part of the statement is pretty much what I was taught which was that Shuriken (sharpened wheel washer's etc.) were usually left out in the rain or wet and left so they become rusty - In medieval Japan there was no cure for Tetanus so a 'nick' from a rusty shuriken was sometimes all that was needed to effectively assassinate a person in the long run.
If it took two weeks for the person to become infected and die then all the better, the Ninja would have long made his exit by then.
:Tetanus has nothing to do with rust, and a shallow wound wouldn't become anaerobic, so the victim wouldn't get Tetanus even if the ninja had dipped the thing in animal dung. No offense intended, but practically everything in the article and talk page alike seems to be original research. There aren't more than a handful of citations, either. 82.166.53.176 18:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shit if I was chasing a ninja through the woods and I saw a half dozen razer sharp disks fly at me I would hit the floor and shit my pants. If that isn't psycological (and biological if you DO shit your pants) then I don't know what is.Toxic Ninja 03:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shuriken 

message: The insertion of so much admittedly legendary material as fact isn't really on here at Wikipedia. I've cleaned up some of it, but even the sources cited are suspect. The modern "ninja" authors want to sell their books after all. --Fire Star 07:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as there's a clean division, the only encyclopedic thing to do is to give an accurate overview of ninja in both history and fiction. Both aspects are too prominent to omit (the former mostly because it originated the latter). At present, the article doesn't seem to distinguish between one and the other. I concur on the point of the sources, though. 82.166.53.176 18:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Encyclopaedia article or comic book? 

message: The previous naming of this section called ninjutsu styles "teaching styles," a misnomer. Though in a practical sense today, this may seem a trivial semantic difference, but it shouldn't be to a purist: the styles address here are schools of the ninjutsu art, not methods of how the ninjutsu art is taught. I hope to have clarified this with my change.
Further, the opening paragraph said that these ryu were sorted by "current prefectures," even though the second item on the list was not a prefecture, but a section of Tokyo (Akihabara); I've attempted to address this, but fear another inaccuracy may also be involved: Could someone with specific knowledge of the ryu check the accuracy of the Akihabara = Akiba-ryū association? Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 04:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninjutsu styles (changes of 2006.1.20) 

message: we need a good photo of an asian in a bad ninja costume thumbs-upping the camera --Froth 03:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like that their online shop is down. Nevertheless you can find a lot about ninja there... --Kakurady 07:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait. You want that ninja doing "thumbs-up" in front of the camera. D'oh! Blame my reading skills.--Kakurady 07:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  multimedia 

message: If references to Ninja as they are portrayed in fiction are going to be used, specifically references to them in Western culture, some effort needs to be me made to make a more comprehensive list. The lack of any references to novels is especially glaring. If for no other reason than representations of Ninja in many novels tend to be far less exagerated and mythical. For instance, the ninja raid on the Toranaga section of Osaka Castle in James Clavell's Shogun_(novel). --Shifty Jim 21:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninja in Fiction 

message: We need some pictures of ninjas on the page. The pirate article has 5 pictures, and this kind of disparity is simply unacceptable. So would one of the dedicated wikipedians please dress up as a ninja (or better yet, if you're a real ninja), and take a picture of yourself, then post it here. That would be nice. =) Dept of Alchemy 00:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about the Bujinkan, but members of the Genbukan are forbidden from "showing off" in such a manner without approval from the Hombu dojo, to avoid further misrepresentation of the art. You can certainly find some old pictures of both Hatsumi-san and Tanemura-san in "shinobigi" on the net, though. Zuiram 00:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Its because pirates are loud and smelly, you can sense one from 20 miles away, easily enough time to get a camera. Ninjas never make any noise so taking a picture of a ninja is as hard as jumping to the moon.Toxic Ninja 03:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ninja pictures

message: On the Australian series of BigBrother there are Ninjas. im not all that great at wiki editing, so maybe someone else could add some info,
below ive added some things that I know about the Ninjas on bigbrother.
On the Australian series of Big Brother there are people that resemble ninjas, they are showen the most often as cameramen during Friday Night Live/Games(FNL). They were first reffered to as ninjas in season 5 by the host of Friday Night Live. during one of the early episodes of season 6 FNL Big Brother reffered to "masked assistants" as ninjas.
The Ninjas on bigbrother have since been used for comedy, such as FNLs "Ninja, tip of the week." in which ninjas give funny ways of improving your lifestyle, such as drilling a hole in your refriderator to make sure the light goes out.
The ninjas are also used for demonstrating prizes (aka, props from FNL).
During FNL the ninjas are usally dressed up in somthing with relavance to what the ninjas do, a ninja who is serveing food will have a chefs hat.
--Syp3r 12:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Big Brother Ninjas. 

message: "There is no evidence that the ninja dressed in all-black suits; this lack of evidence is probably due to the stealth and cunning of individual Ninja, which was perhaps enhanced by the wearing of an all-black suit. Indeed, the best and most camoflaged Ninja would be least likely to exist in the historical record. "
I'm sorry, but this is one of the stupidest things I've read on wikipedia. The lack of evidence of ninjas in all-black suits is taken as evidence of the effectiveness of such a suit? Yeah, and there are aliens controlling the world, and there aren't any records of them, probably because they can turn themselves invisible and travel in time. Keppa 07:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ninja suit

message: At first I wasn't sure about his credibility as an historian, but according to the article here on Wikipedia, Turnbull is "recognized as one of the world's foremost military historians of the medieval and modern periods." Well, that will have to do.
His work includes a title named "Ninja: The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult" (Firebird Books, 1991, ) and I'm surprised to notice that so far *no one* has mentioned this interesting piece of work — surely it would be a valuable source for citation and should not be neglected.
Bragador wrote earlier that "No tangible proof exist so this might as well be an article about a fairy tale."
Documented historic events do not suffice as such? For example, Turnbulls writes that some Japanese chroniclers refer to supposedly hired mercenaries from Iga and Koga who seem to have mostly infiltrated castles and set fires — then again, as for their being black-clad assassins and expert martial artists, there seems to be little proof.
(One of the earliest pictures to show a spy in black ninja clothing dates back to circa 1800 AD — however, as pondered above, the black outfit for "invisible men" could have well been derived from the kabuki theatre.)
Moreover, according to Turnbull, "the earliest written reference which associates ninja with Iga or Koga occurs in the supplement to the Nochi Kagami, the annals of the Muromachi bakufu. In one particular section, as quoted by Sugiyama, we read: 'Concerning ninja, they were said to be from Iga and Koga, and went freely into enemy castles in secret. They observed hidden things, and were taken as being allies. In the Western Lands (i.e. China) they were called saisaku. Strategists called them kagimono-hiki.'" (Also, in some occurrences they were simply referred to as "Iga-shū" and "Koga-shū," Turnbull translating the affix into "band" or "unit.")
Enough with the ranting, my point is this: If someone is actually interested in making the article more historically accurate and thereby helping to maintain the Wikipedia quality standards and whatnot, I suggest reading Turnbull's research on the subject. Methinks it might provide a proper basis for the article. —Noldis 21:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stephen Turnbull's research on the ninja 

message: I was just curious as to why that part was changed. A few of the old parts there were done by me (The Shinobi and Samurai Shodown sections). I personally saw nothing wrong with it. I only recently noticed the change and was wondering why it was done.
     
Edit:
As of my posting this the "new" Video Games section has fallen in to disrepair, it is 
completely unorganized and also now nearly as over-inclusive as it was before it was cut down to 
a vague reference to MMORPG and the general existence of Ninja in Video Games (There may have 
been some mention of Ninja Gaiden in there). Regardless, it has gotten out of hand and I highly suggest 
reverting it back to the way it was before that edit. DarkTechnomancer 00:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninja in Video Games 

message: while surfing the web, I  read about elite korean warriors who specialized in spying and espionage. These warriors were known as sulsa.
check it out
http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/knights.htm
http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/sulsa.htm
:They're not ninjas though, but I will try to look into it. Write me on Talk Page. Dessydes 17:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  There should be something about ninjas from Korea. 

message: Ok, piece by piece:
*"Verifying information about ninja is a very difficult task."
::This statement essentially comes down to a peacock term, making ninjas sound all mystical and secret.  In truth, as I note above, they are no more difficult to verify than thousands of other subjects on Wikipedia; there have been huge amounts of reliable sources written about them.  There have been many other articles about subjects related to "silent killing and espionage" written throughout wikipedia, many with far fewer authoritative sources available than this.  In any case, all of this dumbfounded navel-gazing about how mystical and unknowable the subject simply doesn't make for an encyclopedic tone.  Likewise, claiming that the entire article is speculation and that 'true ninjas are unknowable' is poppycock.  Most of the other things I deleted were similar peacock terms about how magically special and un-disprovable (?!) ninjas are, so I won't go over it in detail.
*"...with ninja, this is further compounded by the specific circumstances of its occurrence in distant lands using a different language..."
::Distant from where?  Different from what language?  Wikipedia is supposed to reflect a universal viewpoint; saying a subject is distant from some unspecified country makes no sense.  (What, exactly, is someone reading this article from a computer in Japan supposed to think?)  Readers can at least presume that the contributor who noted the 'different language' bit was wowed by the fact that they were writing about a subject from a country that didn't speak English, but that covers the majority of the countries in the world and, therefore, a significant chunk of the subjects on Wikipedia...  it simply isn't something worth noting.
*"There are a few less secrective ninja. For example, the competitive american fighter Scott Morris was exposed as a ninja by John McCarthy, the announcer at UFC 2, who stated 'we don't know much about him, because he is a ninja.'"
::An announcer's showboating (note: peacock term) doesn't belong anywhere in the article, never mind in the very intro itself.  Although it is true that Scott Morris is described as a practitioner of Ninjutsu, that is just being used to refer to a style of martial arts...  when the announcer called him a 'ninja', he was joking around for the audience's entertainment.
--Aquillion 00:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: lets face it, no one 'owns' the meaning of 'ninja.' The truths about what 'ninja' means in 2006 (archetype, metaphor, stock character, comic relief) are inconsistent with your japanophiliac dreams. But you have my sympathy. --Ghetteaux 11:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The intro 

message: Subject says it all.  The Ninjutsu thing goes into a lot of detail that doesn't seem to have anything backing it up, or even any articles to support it, and is rather irrelevant to the core ninja article, besides.  I wouldn't presume to insert it into Ninjutsu, but put it in the talk page there to see if anyone can make any sense out of it.
Tchalvak 08:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved Ninjutsu from here over to the talk page of the Ninjutsu article 

message: In an effort to seperate out the past from the present from the fiction, I split the "ninja organization" section into "past" and "fiction" until someone shows initiative to source it to prove the extra stuff anything other than fiction (and unsourced fiction at that).  I'd also love to see some referrence to how present-day ninjutsu teachers organize things (for a "present" section), but I suspect that that organization, lacking the large group that makes a hierarchy of some kind necessary, probably pretty much is made up of "student" and "teacher".  I could just make that section and fill it only with a link to somewhere in ninjutsu saying "here, look at this to understand the modern hierarchy of ninjutsu practitioners" but that wouldn't make for a strong section.  Maybe, for now, I'll just put that at the end of the "past" section.
:The "ninjutsu" part of the art isn't generally taught anymore, except for historical purposes.
:However, the legitimate martial arts lineages that claim a ninjutsu-related heritage, essentially the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan are organized pretty much like any modern japanese martial arts school. One Soke, a few menkyo kaiden, a few/lot (depending on organization) dan-level students, and some/tons (depending on organization) kyu-level students, with a curriculum that tends to be organized with regard to structured learning of practical topics, rather than the preservation of a particular ryu-ha.
:Hope this helps. I can provide more details for Genbukan, but for me to do so for the others would be inappropriate. Zuiram 00:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Organization of ninjutsu teachers 

message: This either implied to the audience that the ninja were also invisible, or simply made the audience unable to tell a ninja from the many prop handlers until the ninja distinguished himself from the others in the play by attacking, either as part of the script, or assassinating an audience member.
i really dont get that Tyriel 15:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  killing the audience ? 

message: Could someone clean up the commercial extlinks in this article.  They are too spammy.  67.117.130.181 06:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  commercial extlink cleanup 

message: This is by far the worst article I have ever read on wikipedia. It appears to have been written by 12-15 year old boys. The first paragraph has a totally irrelevant bit of useless information at the end about some professional wrestler.
:: Agree. But why dont you help them? Sspecter 19:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awful 

message: It would be nice if someone put a section comparing ninjas and stealth agents nowadays. I think it would take off the ninja myth a little, and show how stealth missions was used and still is used. Sspecter 19:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninjas X stealth commandos 

message: I sudjust that anything about naruto be removed, because anyone who knows anything about ninja would agree that he is nothing like a ninja (eg. being very loud and obnactios, wearing a bright orange jumpsuit). P.S. Don't say anything stupid like "he's a ninja, and you suck, believe it!" --Uber Cuber
:Ninja don't flip out and kill people, nor do they often run their own video blogs, yet the term "ninja" is nevertheless associated with such things anyway.  Naruto is variant ninja fantasy, is encyclopedic and is worth mentioning in this context, dattebayo. –Gunslinger47 00:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone who is mislead into thinking Naruto is historically representative is not likely going to live long; likely to be tragically run down on a crosswalk due to the highly ambiguous "WALK"/"DON'T WALK" distinction commonly utilized at intersections. –Gunslinger47 22:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naruto 

message: This section is far too long and the video game summaries do not add to the subject matter and are frankly utterly ridiculous. I propose these summaries are removed or moved elsewhere. This section should be two paragraphs maximum. MIDR 03:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Should be shortened to a bullet list I guess or just cut it in half because it really is overkill by now Tyriel 08:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summaries extraneous in video games section