Talk:Blue Police

message: Can someone translate this? 
https://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emanuel_Ringelblum  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.7.139.188 (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation

message: While navy-blue might be the most correct translation of the Polish word "granatowa", most of the historical works in English just call this formation "Blue Police".  Google Book Search shows that "Blue Police" is a much more prevalent form.  Hence, I am moving the article. Balcer 22:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Since the article is about the collaborationist Polish Police force in the General Government, I removed a completly irrelevant paragraph to the subject matter. Dr. Dan 17:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Relevance?

message: Please try to provide the references together with their corresponding page numbers. --Lysytalk 16:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I was under the impression that the Blue Police represented Polish-Nazi collaboration with their German overlords, and that the Blue Police "primarily" consisted of Poles. Although I'm sure their were other nationalities employed in the force, it almost seems that the inclusion of Ukrainians is somehow trying to dilute its Polishness. Perhaps I'm wrong. Would anyone care to present the percentages of the various nationalities compromising the Blue Police. Rather than completely deleting the reference to Ukrainians, I chose to soften the impression of its significance. As a result of this being disputed, I will ask that unless a reference showing a "significant" percentage of the Blue Police was Ukrainian, that the entire accusation be removed as POV and irrelevant. Dr. Dan 18:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Blue Police was predominantly Polish or Ukrainian, depending on the region. Ukrainian units were created in 1940 in Kraków and Lublin district and later in Lviv. Other nationalities were less significant then Poles and Ukrainians, and had not their separate units. Would you be able to rephrase the sentence in the article in a way that addresses your concerns about "diluting the Polishness" but also maintains the information that the police consisted primarily of Poles and Ukrainians ? --Lysytalk 11:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you tell us what the percentage of the 10,000 to 15,000, Blue Policemen, were Polish and what percentage were Ukrainian? Does anyone else know the facts concerning these percentages? Dr. Dan 15:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't know the percentage. What I meant was that this depended on the time and the area, so a "flat" number would be meaningless anyway. What is important is that the majority of the personnel were Polish or Ukrainian and the number of other nationalities were not significant. This is not because Poles or Ukrainians were particularly "bad" but this is because of the way how these units were recruited. --Lysytalk 17:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not judging "bad" or "good". I'm asking for a percentage to gauge if the inclusion of Ukrainians as  a "primary part"of its membership along with the Poles, is appropriate. As for it depending on the time and the area, lets make the area, the General Government, and the time 1939-1944, if it helps. For example, if the Blue Police was 95% Polish, and 4% Ukrainian and 1% everything else, Ukrainian would be inappropriate in the "primarily" context. Perhaps someone else can better elaborate on the numbers. Dr. Dan 05:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Those statistics add up to about 17,000 Blue Policeman. Is that about the right fifure now? Dr. Dan 15:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ukrainian Inclusion

message: The Blue Police was a local police plus a number of paramilitary units rather than a paramilitary unit. The police wasn't any unit, but a number of local polices, under local German commanders. Xx236 14:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  paramilitary? 

message: But the editors prefer to ignore them. The only information I have found is critics of the French police in Vichy France. Xx236 14:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similar police organizations existed the all of the occupied countries 

message: Which of many police formations under Germans wasn't collaborationist? Why only the Polish one is branded this way and obtained a separate article?
What is the meaning of the paramilitary word here? Which other police article describes local police as a paramilitary unit? It wasn't any unit, because any local police was commanded by a local German commander.
People, do your job correctly or do something different. Noone is obliged to write POV texts. Xx236 16:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Xx236, the (See: also) link at the bottom of this article gives a couple of examples you can read up on. The Vichy France article gives some more examples. There are others too. Dr. Dan 01:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which police wasn't ''collaborationist''? 

message: What source confirms the presence of Ukrainian policemen in the Polnische Polizei? There existed Ukrainische Hilfspolizei:
"Das Frank-Régime gewährte den Ukrainern getreu seiner Maxime ‚divide et impera‘ u.a eine beschränkte Hilfsverwaltung, eine ukrainische Hilfspolizei..." 
http://hsozkult.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/REZENSIO/buecher/2001/GreFr1101.htm
*http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal.org/text/x33/xm3329.html
Xx236 13:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps some Polish Ukrainians served in Blue Police for administrative reasons? There were Hilfspolizei units for almost every nation, but it is likely Germans used administrative, not only ethnic, criteria for their recruitment.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ukrainians 

message: Are there any Blue police photos there? Xx236 14:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Vilna ghetto link 

message: The following fragment is very unclear and dubious, a quotation should be provided (the ref is this book, p.485 added by Halibutt (): "However, as the force was primarily a continuation of the pre-war Polish police force, it also relied largely on pre-war regulations and laws, a situation that was accepted both by the Nazis and by the legitimate Polish authorities. The latter saw the existence of the Blue Police as a necessity". It's one thing to note that the Blue Police used some pre-war Polish regulations; it's another imply that the Blue Police was recognized by the Polish government in exile. Do note that the Polish Underground State had its own police force (National Security Corps and Wojskowa Służba Ochrony Powstania) and judiciary (Directorate of Civil Resistance, Special Courts). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This implies that the Blue Police was seen as a necessity by the Polish authorities and was not considered a criminal organization as such (nor was it seen as an element of German occupation force). As such, it was recognized by the Polish government, contrary to, say, Gestapo or Kripo whose activities on Polish soil were considered illegal by definition. BTW, I can't provide an exact citation as I gave the book back and the GB snippet doesn't seem to show any more. There's a similar quotation at page 13 though, still available from GB: (...) policja "granatowa" działała w znacznej mierze na podstawie przedwojennych przepisów prawnych i służbowych, a ponadto ciągłość przedwojennego aparatu bezpieczeństwa (w okresie wojny) była uznana zarówno przez okupanta, jak i prawowity rząd polski. Feel free to reword that. //Halibutt 19:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recognition by Polish government in exile? 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Blue Police's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Cherry":
From Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland: Robert Cherry, Annamaria Orla-Bukowska, Rethinking Poles and Jews: Troubled Past, Brighter Future, Rowman & Littlefield 2007, 
From Polish death camp controversy: Robert Cherry, Annamaria Orla-Bukowska, Rethinking Poles and Jews: Troubled Past, Brighter Future, Rowman & Littlefield 2007, 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Blue Police]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Should be rather was the police during the Second World War in the General Government (part of German-occupied Poland).
*There exists a controversy regarding Polish. There existed Polish underground police National Security Corps. Lemberg distict police was Ukrainian during some period.
*The police existed only in GG.
*Poland wasn't occupied according to law. It was criminally administered by Nazi Germany, but any explanation would be too long for a lead.
Xx236 (talk) 08:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  was the Polish police during the Second World War in German-occupied Poland (the General Government) 

message: The two pages describe similar organisations, it's interesting to compare them.Xx236 (talk) 20:18, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ukrainian Auxiliary Police]] 

message: The police was German, the Polish police was National Security Corps. Polnische Polizei was a Nazi name. Please stop your Nazi propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 09:22, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Please compare German military administration in occupied France during World War II. also had at its disposal the support of the French authorities and police forces, who had to cooperate per the conditions set in the armistice Poland was occupied without any armisitice, without any limitations. Xx236 (talk) 09:29, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazi propaganda 

message: What authonomy do you mean? The police was commanded by local German commanders. Any protest was cruelly punished.Xx236 (talk) 09:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Blue Police had little autonomy 

message: There are three pictures showing the Blue Police and Orpo together. The BP was a part of the Orpo. Do we have any picture of Western police collaborating with the Nazis, which was a collaboration, not total terror and control like in occupied Poland? Xx236 (talk) 09:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why three pictures? 

message: It wasn't a Polish police. It was a German formation which drafted, later employed, mostly ethnic Poles. There existed a real underground Polish Police at that time National Security Corps.Xx236 (talk) 08:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The police wasn't ''Polish'' 

message: I don't have sources, but allegedly 700 policemen were Belarusians. Originally also 200 Ukrainians, who moved to Ukrainian police. Xx236 (talk) 06:11, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicities 

message: Although these rank insignia are from the Polish WP, they are false. They are not the ones depicted in the source (Littlehjon), but the ones used by the pre-war Polish police. Creuzbourg (talk) 07:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong rank insignia 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: : :pl:Adam Leszczyński is likely reliable, but the pl wiki article also notes he is a founder of the OKO.press. Which is probably reliable too, but I am a bit concerned on whether we can consider an article by a founder of such a website on said website to be properly peer reviewed/not self-published. It likely would be better to cite the original book by Grabowski directly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn’t that fall under WP:SPS?  Volunteer Marek  03:40, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Probably not, but it may not meet WP:POLANDRS. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this reliable? 

message: Re . Yes the source  is by Gunnar Paulsson. Paulsson's middle name is Steven and he is sometimes listed under that name. But the first line of the source clearly states "Shoah historian, Steven Paulsson author of the award-winning Secret City: The Hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945"  Volunteer Marek  23:41, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes it's Gunnar Paulsson 

message: One shouldn't cherry-pick this quote from the source, when Frydel indicates that this is a superseded assessment that has been challenged by recent research, and considering that the rest of his paper does not corroborate it. To pick one quote at random, 
(t · c) buidhe 11:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: What does the quote above have to do with Datner? You're doing WP:SYNTH. Again. Volunteer Marek  13:47, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Also, if you are going to remove text sourced to reliable sources from the article, as you did in this case, please mention that in the edit summary because otherwise your edit summary is misleading. Volunteer Marek  18:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Szymon Datner's opinion 

message: Sigh (lost my analysis due to browser crash, restarting).
Regarding the claim that the policemen were recruited "under threat of death" that was recently questioned at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Blue_Police_in_Poland, I concur it is dubious. I tagged it with verification needed and it should likely be changed. Or changed back - this piece of info was introduced by an anon in 2008 . 
I did find some sources that do say there was a death penalty for disobeying orders or such, I'll add some quotations/sources below for editors interested in expanding this article:
* Marek Getter (1996): "Policja Polska w Generalnym Gubernatorstwie 1939-1945", Przegląd Policyjny nr 1-2, Wydawnictwo Wyższej Szkoły Policji w Szczytnie   translated  "foreign police in the GG" refers to Blue Police (and possibly some other formations?). The article also implies this regulation was introduced in 1942.
* Piątek, Monika. "Działalności tzw.„policji granatowej” w Generalnym Gubernatorstwie." ROCZNIK POLSKO-UKRAIŃSKI TOM XX: 111.  . Translated:  People refers to Blue Policemen.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:52, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death penalty for the policemen 

message: Why did a Reichs German have a Polish name? Why did a Reichs German serve in the Austrian police? Creuzbourg (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK he was born in Austria, he changed his name during the war to Vincenz Edler von Strohe Marcelus (talk) 00:02, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Was that in Austrian Galicia or in Austria "proper"? Did he became a Reichs German after Anschluss? Creuzbourg (talk) 17:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure, but my Polish source said simply "Austria" so I assume it means proper Austria, Galicia would never be called that way Marcelus (talk) 18:35, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Is this Wincenty Strohe/Wincenty Strohe the same guy? Then we have the answers there! Creuzbourg (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the same guy, but I don't really see an answer there Marcelus (talk) 15:42, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

text: Of course, a problem is that the source (Marek) doesn't say that. Creuzbourg (talk) 17:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Real name Wincenty Słoma, a Reichdeutscher formerly in the Austrian police