Talk:Shōnen manga

message: Japan Book News #57 see page 12-13 from the Japan Foundation. --KrebMarkt 16:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Page 14 has an article about Tezuka, too. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resources 

message: I saw there was a note at the top of the page about there being too much material in the introduction of the article, and that some material should be moved to the body.
I did just that, and divided the moved material into sections. I did not add or remove any of this material, only reorganized it.
(Edit: I also added a section talking about the history of manga, taken from the History of manga article.
More should be done to add to the history section, however.)
I hope my edits were beneficial. JaykeBird (talk) 10:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits to Lead Section and Addition of History Section 

message: Either the article has to be bigger or the women's role part has to be shortened quite significantly. Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Djo_manga there is undue weight on this part of the article. Also it's full of opinions without source. I'm not an instance of knowledge on this subject so I'm putting up the suggestion to rework it - but if there is no disagreement and nothing changes for a while, I'll shorten it at least by getting rid of the opinions without source. Also when there is a source, more often than not it's just a source to the entertainment medium itself, not to a critical analysis.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.124.42 (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight 

message: The kanji characters (少年) literally mean "boy" (or "youth"). 
What they literally mean is "few year(s)".  What they idiomatically mean is "boy" or "youth".--Shirt58 (talk) 02:17, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "literally" 

message: So I understand female representation is a very broad topic but I don't believe it's deserving of it's own category anymore than Racial, Religious, Political, Sexual Orientation or any other form of representation. I'd argue it's even irrelevant considering the variables isn't fixed on the importance or representation of gender but rather the creators own individual story telling. Sex as hair color or even breathing are just necessary attributes for the characters in said medium. Otherwise this deviates from the main topic. But even if this was appropriate, I don't see the same treatment for its contemporary wiki page for Shojo Manga (manga targeted towards girls). No Category for Male representation, which I'd consider not only a double standard but sexist. Jasonz2z (talk) 10:24, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course this is biased section done for obvious PC reasons nowadays. It should be removed or at least trimmed down. 178.43.182.202 (talk) 07:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Womens role in Shounen? 

message: Who ever messed with this page needs to revert it back to the way it was. Shonen is mot for ages “9 to 18”. The citation we used confirms it targets 12 to 18. SG1994! (talk) 02:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on our previous interactions at shōjo manga it's clearly a waste of time to engage you in good faith, but: three of the four sources you've provided ("The Word Counter", "Japanese Tactics", and "Investigate Blog") are random blogs and are plainly not reliable sources. Per your own excerpt of the Nikkei article you've provided, shonen manga is generally associated with teenagers; that does not mean it is exclusively associated with teenagers, and does not contradict the 9-18 age range given by McCarthy. The reality is that these are all notional marketing categories to begin with, so trying to lay down some hard definition about what constitutes a "child" is going to be a fool's errand. Morgan695 (talk) 04:18, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I'm not getting into a semantic argument with you over what constitutes a "young person". You're just spouting nonsense at this point. It's a shame that your WP:OWNERSHIP behavior at this page has been devoted exclusively to dying on this weirdly specific hill instead of actually improving an article that's been riddled with issue tags since 2008. Morgan695 (talk) 04:43, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Funny how the reliable published source that supports your POV is "universally agreed by most to be the most reliable source" (by who?), while the reliable published source that does not support your POV is "amateurish at best" and "not a reliable person as her analysis is contradicting". In any case, the article should note both of these ranges per WP:CONFLICTING. Morgan695 (talk) 15:02, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I would propose:  Morgan695 (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: This is clearly an unproductive discussion, as you've made it clear that no evidence is going to budge you on this. I'll start a request for comment below shortly. Morgan695 (talk) 15:10, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unauthorized edit 

message: How should this article define the age range of shōnen manga?
*An impasse has emerged on this article  over defining the age range of shōnen  manga, which can be reviewed in the discussion immediately above this RfC. A Brief History of Manga by Helen McCarthy defines the age range as 9 to 18, while Understanding Manga and Anime by Robin E. Brenner defines it at 12 to 18. The other sources provided by User:SG1994! supporting the 12-18 range are, in my view, plainly unreliable blogs. I propose that "Shōnen manga" under "Terminology and etymology" be revised to the following:  Morgan695 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot prove what is a "universally accepted fact" any more than you can. The content of Wikipedia is determined based on what is published in reliable sources. Per WP:USERGENERATED, blogs and other "content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable". In any case, you've made your position on the matter abundantly clear; the purpose of this RfC is to seek input from third parties. Morgan695 (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Then please provide them. Morgan695 (talk) 15:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Please provide a specific page, as well as which edition of The Anime Encyclopedia you're citing from. Morgan695 (talk) 16:09, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Not sure where About.com falls as a reliable source, but Aoki is a published author of manga criticism, so I would consider her writing to be generally reliable. I'd like to again reiterate that these are all just arbitrary marketing categories to begin with, so there is naturally going to be variance in how the age range is defined. There is no "universally accepted" age range, despite claims to the contrary, which is why I support casting a wider net rather than a narrow one. Morgan695 (talk) 16:43, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Where in the About article does Aoki contradict herself? The only range she lists is 8 to 18. Morgan695 (talk) 16:57, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Where did she said "12 to 18"? I agree with Morgan695, I don't get why is so crucial to have a strict age range for the matter. I will try to see if I can find something else for the time being anyway. Xexerss (talk) 17:01, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Where is this other article? You cannot just blithely assert that "Japanese sources tend to stick to that" or "most sources state" without providing actual sources to back up your claims. And a statement that Weekly Shonen Jump is aimed at teenagers is not a comment on the category as a whole, nor does it support a specific 12-18 age range. Morgan695 (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: And Monthly Shonen Magazine is "aimed at boys aged nine years and above"  Xexerss (talk) 17:11, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: What do you mean? It's from Kodansha's official English website. Xexerss (talk) 17:19, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Still waiting for this mysterious other article where Deb Aoki contradicts herself. Morgan695 (talk) 17:21, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: This RfC only been open for two hours; I'm not closing it now just because you've decided you're not going to be budged on this. Morgan695 (talk)
https://www.liveabout.com/top-manga-must-reads-2283086
Found it.  SG1994! (talk) 17:27, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I literally searched "12 to 18" and didn't found anything. Are you sure that this is the correct link? Xexerss (talk) 17:28, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It recommends Naruto as "worth a look for any reader age 12 and up". It does not state a specific age range for shonen manga. Morgan695 (talk) 17:30, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Am I to interpret this as meaning that if I revise the copy of the article to my proposal in my original comment [], you won't revert it? (The proposal statement is admittedly complicated by the 8-18 range Aoki gives in the source Xexerss found, but I would say the two published books are more generally reliable than About.com is.) Morgan695 (talk) 17:44, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: @SG1994!: I think you're misreading what  is saying; wide and narrow refer to the age ranges, not how accepted they are. 9 to 18 is an objectively wider range than 12 to 18. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I'm ultimately fine with the compromise if it ends this interminable discussion, but yes, I was using "widely" and "narrowly" to indicate that one range is larger than the other, not to make a value judgement about which one is more correct. Morgan695 (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Not really. Shonen manga in general are mainly targeted towards early to late teen boys between 12 and 18. Like I said, I took most of my sources from chief editors of Shonen magazines, mangaka and Japanese sites. They all agree early to late teen boys are the primary audience and has been for decades. Some websites contradict their information. And mistranslate “shonen” as a broad sense when it’s been officially confirmed that the word is used in a narrow sense when referring to manga and anime. And the narrow sense only refers to boys in junior high to high school which would be 12 to 18. It’s just that some of these people on here have their sticks shoved to far up their butts to accept it. Pride seems to be ruling this site. And people question why Wikipedia is unreliable. Here is the answer. LMAO 2601:58B:4801:9CD0:191E:8839:4AD0:F43D (talk) 06:57, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC: Defining the age range of ''shōnen '' manga 

message: — Assignment last updated by Redoctopus14 (talk) 13:04, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: ENGL-122