Talk:Pieds-noirs

message: I edited the first sentence of the article, who claimed that Pied Noir was the name given to the French colonist. Actually, it's a bit more complicated : More than half the pied-noir population was of other European descent (from Italy, Malta, Spain), mainly in the Oran area. Moreover, the word colonist is a bit POV and unacurate : As explained in the article, most of the Pied Noir were urban. If I agree to use the word colonist in order to speak about the Pied Noir of the Mitjida area and the German of Sout Dakota, I think this word is a bit odd for the Dock worker of bab-el-Oued or the German shoemaker of Little Germany, New York.--83.112.227.28 01:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits

message: The Sephardic Jews arrived to find a large Jewish community already in place and the two communities combined over time.
ALERIANS and pied-neir tewdrion qwas thewu fhiwdh gwsnmx vhdjdhqndm cmdbcadghad cnjdkgrhkfcds  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.19.38 (talk) 01:15, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardic 

message: The article says "It also includes the Algerian Jewish population".
I would like a source to confirm this.
From my perspective (Both my parents are North African Jews), the only Pieds-Noirs are the ones who colonized North Africa.
Most Jews are not.
A Pied-Noir is in most cases a French who moved to North Africa when France colonized it.
Most Jews were there before that happened.
The French version of wikipedia says "les séfarades ne sont pas des pieds-noirs".
Can we then correct the English version? They contradict each other.
:::I'm working on finding sources for this article, as it was tagged to need sources and I am having trouble finding any source to support the definition of pieds-noirs as including Jews who had lived in Algeria before French colonization. Does anyone have a source to confirm this? Lazulilasher (talk) 20:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardics are not pieds-noirs! 

message: Hi, I just added references to this article and some more information in a number of sections (notably the History section). Lazulilasher (talk) 02:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy editing, and references 

message: Hi, I removed this section as it was like a list and was listed on the article's peer review. However, it's still listed here. Lazulilasher (talk) 00:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable pied-noir section 

message: Hi, I don't use a pen name to name myself : I am Olivier Cazeaux, a French Algerian proud of his 
roots.  What is your genuine name, Lazulilasher ? Would you be afraid to give it ?
How can you deny what I write ? What could justify you or anybody have the right to use a pejorative word to name a community ?
If I tell that my own parents didn't know this term (my father was an engineer) in 1962, would you dare assert I'm a liar ? I cried at the age of four when French metropolitans told I was a "pied noir".  I asked my mother why : my feet are pink, not black. All men of my family fought during all the wars ; my father's older brother was killed in 1944 in Normandy (Patton Army) at the age of 20.  He was a French, fully French, not a "pied noir".    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.251.87.227 (talk) 22:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of Term, removal 

message: FAC withdrawn by nominator --ROGER DAVIES talk 05:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: FAC

message: So, let's us start looking at the next step. The article was run through FAC, although I withdrew it because it needed a lot of work. Anyway, for those interested, there withdrawn nomination is . So, I thought I'd get started by trying to remove extraneous words (some which inadvertently throw in POV). Let's see what we can do. I'm concerned about POV, because I worry I have inherent bias on this issue and am trying to write in a more neutral tone...let me know what you guys think....Lazulilasher (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Proposal: Also, because it was commented that the text is rather wordy--and Popular Culture sections and Notable People lists are generally frowned upon, I propose removal of those two sections. Also, I am considering cutting the "Origin" of the Pied-N/noir as well as 1.) the origin is mostly conjecture/anecdotal and 2.) I am having trouble finding a reliable source saying one thing or the other....any thoughts on cutting those 3 sections? Lazulilasher (talk) 18:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, note that I placed a copy of the FAC nomination (withdrawn) on my userspace so that we can look at the comments and make notes on them but do not harm the actual archive. It is located here. Lazulilasher (talk) 19:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Next Steps

message: Criticism about the two explanations included in the text
1. If the first were right, indigenous population would have used the term continually since the origins to 1962. But they've still have named Europeans "Roumis", making reference to Romans, who occuppied North Africa during centuries.
2. Another clue is the term metropolitan French people, especially in the Army, used to name Algerian Europeans to laugh at them: "Arbicot", when they name Muslims "Bicots".
3. The story of sailors have something true but only a couple of historiography papers may be taken into account: since most sailors working in the coal roams of ships sailing between Algeria and France were natives of Algeria, one has found in old logbooks it was question of "these black feet who soil the deck..."
4. The story of "colonists" who were supposed to wear polished shoes is amazing. Most, most people who settled in Algeria first were not colonists: a colonist is somebody who owns a property and exploit it. In 1956, the famous sociologist (left wing and former Resistance soldier) Germaine Tillon made a precise study of Algeria population: only 2% of Europeans were "colonists", much less than in metropolitan France. Most settlers were very poor people who came in Algeria as they could have gone to the USA as well. Therefore they were far to wear polished shoes...
5. In fact the only serious thesis comes from the news magazine "L'EXPRESS", very involved in favor of the independence. An article written in the mid fifties described sarcastically Europeans of Algeria as lazy rich people who were exploiting muslim natives ; and the author compared them with the Black Feet American Natives, supposed (according to famous cartoon author Hergé in his album Tintin in America) to take benefit lazily of oil laying under their lands, playing cards and drinking...
The term Pied-Noir was therefore imagined by some metropolitan French intellectuals to laugh at French of Algeria. Quick to retort, the Algiers Students Union took the term as a challenge. But nobody among the population used the term which was discovered once back to metropole in 1962. Europeans of Algeria named themselves Algerians like an American born in Texas would say Texan or they more simply used the City from which they were native: Algerois for Algiers, Oranais for Oran, Constantinois for Constantine ; like an American born in New York would say a NewYorker
It was and still is a very pejorative term as Neger for instance to name African Americans
:Indeed. It is quite obviously a pejorative term for "them" from "over there" - i.e. from the "wilderness" of Africa. You know... like aborigines, natives, bush-men... savages. Injuns. Black Feet being particularly appropriate as a pejorative as the term also implies filth. As opposed to connotations of labeling someone Apache, Navajo or Mohican.--109.175.104.179 (talk) 10:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of term

message: I think it needs to be made more clear who Massu was threatening and how he could have had so much control over events in Paris. Something concise (a sentence or two) probably needs to be said here about the shrinking French empire, the defeat at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and its effect on French politics. This would put Massu and Algeria into a broader context that makes the threat more understandable. Finetooth (talk) 05:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Finetooth, you have come to the rescue as I was procrastinating on copy-editing this beast of an article. Please accept my gratitude. Ok, you have raised another point which I did not consider (the first point was "what has happened to the pieds-noirs since repatriation").  I have access to good library network, so I am attempting to find a good book. The article's original research was almost exclusively gleaned from piecing together information available on GoogleBooks.com (which only lets you see about 1-4 at a time due to copyright restraints). Lazulilasher (talk) 00:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Massu's threat

message: Hi, User:Brianboulton left me a note concerning a number of edits that keep appearing (added by an IP and then User:Mauvaisegrain. The edits regard criticisms surrounding the origin of the term. Although I feel that criticism may, in fact, be warranted, I am slightly concerned that some of the information appears to be Original Research. I have removed the edits already, twice, over the last month or so. Therefore, I do not want to remove again before we have a discussion. Other uses have removed the info, but, hopefully Mauvaisegrain will come here and speak to us. I tried to source some of the added info (in an earlier version there was a mention of an author), but only came up with references to the author, not an actual piece of research material. L'Express is mentioned, but I did not have access to archives.  A number of the points do appear relatively valid, so I have asked Mauvaisegrain for sources.... Lazulilasher (talk) 23:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see extended discussion regarding this issue here. Lazulilasher (talk) 00:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of Term Criticism? 

message: I just read that there were, according to British historian Alistair Horne, around 700.000 Algerian deaths, which is a bit different then the cryptic "at least 153,000 Algerians, with estimates varying due to differing statistical analyses." now in the article -- eiland (talk) 09:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ya, I was the person that added the phrase about a year ago. If you can cite to a more precise figure, please do include; although, I note that there does appear to be controversy regarding any particular estimate. Kindly, Lazulilasher (talk) 12:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I only have a secondary source, a journalisitic article in Dutch; I dont have Hornes book. I don't think that's sufficient? -- eiland (talk) 10:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

text: @175.37.18.253 millions.. right, what about the sources? Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 11:54, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Algerian deaths 

message: this article miss a section about the spanish enclaves in oran, bougie, algiers and mers el kebir >> History of Algeria. this period was just before the french period. Cliché Online (talk) 21:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Spanish period 

message: obvs a similar sort of thing, how come no mention?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.59.87 (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  any comparison to afrikaners? 

message: Does this mean 13 percent of the total French population, or 13 percent of the total Algerian population? From the numbers I guess the latter (the absolute number of 1,400,000 seems too small to form 13 percent of the French population in 1962), but the text is not clear on this. Please correct if you know for sure. -- 77.7.142.53 (talk) 19:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "roughly 13 percent of the total population" of WHAT? 

message: The article is good but the first paragraph says : «Pied-Noir (French pronunciation: ​[pjenwaʁ], Black-Foot), plural Pieds-Noirs, is a term referring to people of French and other European ancestry who lived in French North Africa, namely French Algeria, the French protectorate in Morocco, or the French protectorate of Tunisia, often for generations, until the end of French rule in North Africa between 1956 and 1962.»
The rest of the article include the other non-Muslim communities.
Sepharadi Jews, Christian berbers and Gyspies was called pied-noir too. All non-Muslim people in Algeria who needed to left Algeria for mainland France are called pied-noir. That's why nowadays, since the pied-noir exodus, there is less Jews, Christians and other non-Muslim in Algeria than in other Maghrebi countries. The Algerians Muslim who disagreed with FLN was called harkis.--Monsieur Fou (talk) 08:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Not only people from European origin

message: Can somebody provide assistance with this issue (either here or within the linked discussion as long as it is still open). Thanks in advance,--Tuchiel (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm unsure how and where to appropriately link this, but Portugal experienced a remarkably similar exodus a decade later in the 1970s.  See the Wikipedia article about Portugal's Retornados at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processo_Revolucionário_Em_Curso#The_retornados  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walter Dufresne (talk • contribs) 13:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  France's Pied-Noirs in the 1960s and Portugal's Retornados in the 1970s 

message: Hello beautiful editors,
Please add this missing information to the etymology of "Pied Noir -- black feet".
and further down
Thank you! I was so confused when I read "black feet" and was speculating about it for half an hour before I logged into OED and got clarity! Other readers, such as myself, would want to know too!
--BughaFan (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Etymology from OED 

message: some of the content that you added (I haven't checked all of it) has failed verification. Could you please go over what you added recently and check the sources (making sure that they properly support what is attributed to them)? Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 23:48, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Bitton, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll go back and review these. MWD115 (talk) 23:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed verification 

message: For inscrutable reasons based on unknown research someone some years ago decided that it was correct to capitalize not only Pied but also Noir, which is fundamentally wrong twice over. [Larousse  https://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/rechercher/Pied-Noir] redirects this spelling to the correct "pied-noir". This is about as authoritative as it gets. It seems the logic was that this is an ethnicity not a foot that is black. Um. Ethnicities are never never never capitalized in French. See: français, russe, algérien, chinois, africain. Countries are capitalized, citizenships are not. Ever. This makes my teeth hurt. The first word of a title (as of this article) is capitalized. ONLY. The article title should be Pied-noir. 
Since there is prior discussion about this on the talk page, however erroneous, I will stop correcting this pending some input, but right now would need some fairly major evidence to convince me that Larousse is wrong about this. Elinruby (talk) 21:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: see Talk:Pied-Noir#Lowercase. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't tell what you are saying. It sounds like you agree with me but think the title cannot be changed. But of course it *could* be. Resistance would be massive to "pied-noir" however, for style reasons. But I don't see why it has to be Pied-Noir. Just WRONG. But I wasn't losing any sleep over it until you reminded me of this. Incidentally, readers of this page may be interested in Regency of Algiers, not that it has anything to do with the question at hand. There were no pieds-noirs until after that period. Elinruby (talk) 17:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes, I meant that no one seems to agree to change the title. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization