Talk:Things Fall Apart

message: Am I the only one who thinks that this article is badly written? I mean, there are grammar mistakes, and the summary, and character lists are very brief. For a book so widely studied in schools, the article should be much better. For example, I could probably just paste in stuff that my English class did about this book to make the article better!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.240.254.210 (talk) 03:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Badly written

message: I was just reading about the book and at some point it says the protagonist commits suicide. No warning, no spoiler tags no nothing. Thanks a lot!!!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.47.73.146 (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoilers

message: number of pages in this book —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.100.131 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 22 February 2006 
* The amazon.com entry says 224 pages. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page count

message: The entire last paragraph 1) seems lifted from somewhere, and 2) is extremely POV. Particularly the bit criticising the Ibo culture. This is not the place for something like that, it's not encyclopedic. Kyou 02:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: The whole article (at least the part beginning with "Point of View" until the end) seems very awkwardly worded to me, in phrases such as "The village is faced with the hard decision to either accept the change or if they accept it, it would show their own personal weakness."  Was it written by a native English speaker?  It seems like this part of the article (and possibly the Part 1 and 2, I didn't read them) needs to be rewritten or revised to be less awkwardly phrased.  Does anyone else agree?  
Also passages like "The perspective of this novel was appropriate because of the language barrier. Achebe has peppered pieces of the Igbo language proving that it is too complex for a direct English translation. By having a third person narrator, it allows the reader to understand what is going on. This novel has limited dialogue, because the language is so different from English. So in order to obtain the whole plot the character must know what the characters are thinking and why they are thinking that," are unsubstantiated.  Certainly other explanations are very possible as to the reason for the point of view, and since the book was originally written in English, the idea that dialogue is limited as a result of the complexity of translating the Ibo language seems shaky at best.  And the idea that the use of Ibo phrases proves the complexity of the language seems silly as well.  Isn't it possible that Achebe simply used them to create atmosphere?   The whole second half of the article seems to contain some shaky assertions like this one.  Thoughts?--Derco 07:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree that the second part of this article looks as if it was lifted wholesale from somewhere, I disagree with your assertion, Derco, about the complexity or otherwise of Ibo (and yes, the word can be spelled either Ibo or Igbo, with Ibo being mainly used for members of that ethnic group to the west of the River Niger, and Igbo being used for the peoples to the east of the Niger). There are many proverbs, sayings, etc. in Ibo which are extremely difficult to render properly in English. Yes, many times Achebe uses these Ibo phrases atmospherically, but most of the time he leaves them in because they just cannot be properly translated. The major reason why the college educated Achebe wrote Things Fall Apart in English rather than in Ibo was to showcase to a Western audience the richness and depth of language that the Ibo possess, as well as to highlight aspects of life in pre-colonial Nigeria. Being that the novel remains a worldwide classic, I believe he achieved this aim handily. -- Jalabi99 13:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that he did a great job and it's a great book.  That's why this page is rather troubling to me.  I don't see any verification for the assertions in the second half of the article.  Perhaps Achebe did keep phrases in the original Ibo because it was too complex (not being able to speak Ibo I can't say personally if this is true or not), but no source is given for this assertion.  Another example of this is the assertion "He [Okonkwo]dies courageously," which certainly seems to be up to the opinion of the reader.  Also: "In part II, however, when the Europeans arrive, their actions are much more cruel and cannablistic than the tribal people's."  I do not recall the Europeans being practioners of cannabalism, and although I have not read the book in a year or so, I highly doubt that they were depicted in this manner. Basically the second half o the article contains a lot of unverified assertions and statements of highly questionable accuracy.  My other complaint was simply the awkward wording of much of the article (e.g. "Also both the settlers and the villagers have guns. These objects prove to us that it takes place in the 1800's."  To me, the use of the word "we" seems very srange in an encyclopedia entry.)  Also I don't see why the article would spell it Igbo if Achebe himself spelled it Ibo.--Derco 01:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph that begins under the "Point of View" heading is really problematic also because it seems to imply that the novel was translated from Ibo, which it isn't. It also seems like it could easily be condensed into a sentence as part of a larger discussion of style that would probably be more appropriate for the article. --Nicole Javaly 14:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: As for the use of Igbo, it is true that Achebe used Ibo, but the modern/current way to spell it is Igbo.  See Igbo (people).  In the book itself, "Ibo" is used, but in the preface to the most recent version (see Google Books) uses "Igbo."  I just re-read this for my college English class, so I may do some revising.  In fact, I will do at least some (i.e. add an infobox).  --The Human Spellchecker 09:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: This article badly needs a rewrite. It reads like a high school paper, not like an encyclopedia entry. There's too much plot summary and not enough about its literary significance (which is what the article should focus much more on - showing its significance and notability), and it badly needs references. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I made a start with literary significance and history. -- Stbalbach 18:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: In the summary it says "One night Chielo, a woman consumed by the Goddess Agbala, comes to Okonkwo’s compound screaming that Ezinma was to be sacrificed and she must take her. Without question Ezinma is given to Chielo..." but I don't believe she was to be sacrificed. I think that no reason was given by Chielo. I believe that Ekwefi and Okonkwo followed her because they weren't sure what was going to happen, and Achebe emphasizes this uncertainty in the darkness of walking to the next village at night in the jungle. Somebody who read this more recently than I have should update.
The commentor is right. Ezinma was not taken away by Chielo in the middle of the night to be killed because Chielo herself returns Ezinma to her home the next morning without harming her.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sushantap (talk • contribs) 08:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ezinma 

message: I just read this book for my English class, and it is seperated into three parts.  The third part starts with Okonkwo returning to his tribe at chapter twenty (pg. 157).  Published by Fawcett Crest, NY. October 1969  Mannerisky
:Correct, it is 3 parts. -- Stbalbach 18:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three Parts 

message: I've edited the infobox slightly to reflect the first edition a bit more, as per standard use of the template - 1958 novels pre-date the use of ISBNs. I have been unable to find a copy of the first edition to verify the other fields - specifically, Publisher, Hardcover/Softcover, and Page count.
Also, more varied sources are needed for citing parts of the article. There's not really much point using footnotes if every footnote points to the same source! -- H. Carver 08:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  As my teachers always say - if you're only using one source, then you're probably just paraphrasing exactly what that person said... and that's not a very balanced way to write anything!  Justi521 05:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why does the first paragraph say that it's a 1959 novel? My Penguin edition also gives 1958 as the date of original publication...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuwanda (talk • contribs) 21:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox and citations

message: Perhaps this may expose my ignorance, but I believe the second sentence of the opening paragraph may be a misrepresentation as I am in fact an American living in America and I had never heard of this book until it was featured on the front page of Wikipedia. Having attended a number of schools in the USA, and having lived here all my life, I can therefore state with some degree of certainty that it is likely not "widely read and studied in English-speaking countries around the world." Can anyone contest this? If not then the sentence should be omitted in its entirety.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.152.6 (talk) 01:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: opening paragraph

message: In the section about themes and motifs, one of the listed subjects is: "Violence and conflict in once peaceful communities were created by Christian missionaries." However, this is not true. The communities fight wars with each other before the missionaries come, as is made clear in the beginning of the novel. Is it ok if i remove that part? Or can anyone justify the statement? -AnnaP  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.193.177.84 (talk) 22:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I think it definitely could be phrased better. But, second, I think this comment is meant to discuss the violence and conflict within the village itself. Also, which violence and conflict in the beginning of the book are you referring to in between the communities because I seem to recall that the conflicts were often solved by having one person sacrificed or with exile and there were many united villages that forged bonds by sending daughters to live in the other village. Generally, no, the communities in Africa were certainly not immune to violence and conflict, but I think this statement addresses the specific violence and conflict as insigated by the arrival of the Christian missionaries, wholly apart from any conflict before they arrived. And I think Okonkwo's village was in relative peace for many years before missionaries arrived, which would make it a peaceful willage. I think the theme referred to looks specifically at the strife created by missioanries as opposed to alleging that there was no strife before they arrived. --RossF18 (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Themes and motifs 

message: The section "Themes and motifs" does not cite any references or sources. This gives it the appearance of being simply the opinion / original research of its editor(s). We need to provide reliable third-party cites for all these statements. If we can't do so fairly soon, then we should delete this section from the article. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 23:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: At a glance, it doesn't appear to be lifted from a study guide given that the SparkNotes page on the motifs and themes is rather different . And I would welcome the users suggesting deletions to help out as well. Also, what does "fairly soon" mean? Tomorrow, a week from now, a month? I think having suggested that we provide third party cites two days ago, user 201.37.230.43 could have helped with at least one citation if the main focus wasn't on deletion. But in the spirit of good faith, how about some help. --RossF18 (talk) 20:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Section "Themes and motifs" does not cite any references or sources

message: Was Ikemefuna really 'unintentially' killed as in the novel it says that Okonkwo killed Ikemefuna because 'he was afraid of being thought weak'. I'm guessing you meant that he was killed by Okonkwo who didn't want to kill him but felt it necessary. I think this should be changed as it sounds like it was an accident to kill the boy similar to the killing of Ezeudu's son.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.218.95 (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ikemefuna 

message: Did someone vandalize this section? All it says is "Completely different than our modern cultural style today." With no references and no support, the quality of this 'as is' is low.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.71 (talk) 17:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Yes, it was vandalized.--RossF18 (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture 

message: The personal tragedy of the protagonist of this novel, and of his tribal/clan culture in the face of brutal invasion, is an instance of the importance of one of Joseph Campbell's main ideas, i.e. that every culture has myths, one function of which is (among other things) to teach the people how to behave (to "do the right thing' is one way to express it).  Still following Campbell, the culture and its people are in trouble when the lessons of those myths no longer work (for whatever reasons).  (see Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers, "The Power of Myth," Anchor Books, 1991; first published 1988, especially Chapter 1.)  Campbell expressed his personal view that the USA in the 20th century had this problem in relation to some of its religious myths and customs, especially the more fundamentalist ones.
Among the many different lessons of Achebe's novel is the fragility of an inflexible, primitive, and unsophisticated culture.  It may work if nothing changes but it cannot adapt to change.  Whether the reader admires the Ibo culture depicted in the novel or not (for whatever reasons), and whatever one thinks of the British colonialists including their missionaries, I don't think it can be denied that Okonkwo's story is of a terrible failure because he is not flexible, has not been sophisticated by contact (direct or indirect) with other different cultures, is in a culture with rigid traditions that, among other things, are more oriented toward honor and custom than to survival.  Okonkwo, the strong man, is in fact shown to be fragile because of these aspects of his culture, exacerbated by his own constant fear of appearing (or actually being) weak -- and, perhaps, a certain lack of intelligence.
Like it or not, politically correct or not, this novel teaches that flexibility, readiness to adapt, and readiness to change old customs when they no longer work can be crucial to survival -- of individuals, and even of cultures which will be changed in the process but perhaps not simply destroyed.  One may prefer honor according to the old customs, but it is expensive.  
oops -- forgot to sign -- Bergsyj (talk) 17:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Things Fall Apart" from the viewpoint of the function of myths and customs 

message: It needs to have some sort of plot summary. Also, I don't think the characters section needs expansion. Wolfehhgg (talk) 21:44, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There was always a plot summary. The reason there wasn't when you checked the article is because the article was vandalised repeatedly. I must have put the plot summary back a number of times and it keeps being deleted periodically with noone noticing for a few months. I don't know how that happens. From what I can tell, the plot summary was just deleted on 12:17, November 6, 2009 by 169.226.18.58 and no one noticed. --RossF18 (talk) 15:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Plot Summary? 

message: Should this section not also include references to the book in popular culture? The most obvious one I can think of is The Roots' album Things Fall Apart  but I am sure there must be more.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.136.139 (talk) 13:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Film, television, and theatrical adaptations 

message: the character analysis for mr. brown has been tampered with.  perhaps someone who knows more about this can fix it?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.8.79.154 (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mr. Brown 

message: The discussion of gender roles in the novel is too short--it only mentions "male" and "female" crimes. Since gender play such an integral role in the novel, this section really should be expanded.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.158.224.232 (talk) 20:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but in order to expand them, we need reliable sources that provide this perspective. I'm quite sure they're out there -- but right now this article is swamped with original research. This should all be removed until we can provide citations. Scartol • Tok 14:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is almost certainly a wealth of academic criticism and discussion of the way Achebe works with gender/masculinity in the past 12 years that should be looked into. 2601:43:181:4770:74F0:17A9:E688:9E21 (talk) 01:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, you are welcome to draw upon those discussions to improve the article. Wikipedia is built by volunteer editors who do this work, and that includes you. If you'd like to get started with editing and improving articles, reach out to the Teahouse, where other experienced editors can help you get started. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 04:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender Roles 

message: Why is Cliff Notes used as a source! --User:DiscipleOfKnowledge (talk)  19:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cliff notes! Wtf?! 

message: I don't get the impression that this article is well-watched, especially given the long-term deletion and replacement of content by IPs and named accounts that have only contributed to this article (see 2008 history; a bunch of one-article users added content, perhaps a class project?). In some cases IP section blanking was never reverted, if indeed it should have been. As a result there have been, for example, 3 or 4 versions of the "Characters" section.
Anyway, the main sections of this article are all over the map. My plan is to trim critical material that is somewhat tangential to the topic, and consolidate all analysis under Themes. (Another concern is that key phrases in the numbered items in "Themes" consistently bring up the same Google Books results, including a study guide, as if someone had copied verbatim. But I can't view those books online, so have to assume good faith, especially as it's not clear to me that GBooks is "confirming" exact quote passages that I search for.) Clearly this article deserves better, but my plans are limited to rationalizing all the diverse main headings that relate to theme and lit crit. (E.g. There are three main sections called "Literary significance and reception", "Critical reception/value", and "Popularity/influence"; I expect they're quite redundant.)  So... if anyone happens to be invested in certain sections, fair warning, and other thoughts on improvement are welcome. (I know some people would call most of it "OR" and blank half the article. Not really my thing.) Riggr Mortis (talk) 22:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article quality/trimming and consolidating themes 

message: It seems like a blog (https://www.bookofdaystales.com/chinua-achebe/) has very similar wording to this article in both the plot description and the literary significance section. There are some parts that are word for word the same. Not sure If the blog post is copied off here or the other way around though Sarah51702 (talk) 03:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copied 

message: I noticed there is no citation for the 2008 film adaption produced by a Nigerian company. After searching, all I can find is an adaptation on YouTube that may not even be the film in question. As such, the reference to this film should probably be removed if no source can be provided. --12.231.230.82 (talk) 18:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the reference to a 2008 adaptation. Like you, I couldn't find any references to one, and the statement that Pete Edochie was in it was clearly factually incorrect, as he was in the 1986 TV adaptation. The two things together mean removing this shouldn't be controversial. H. Carver (talk) 13:32, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  2008 Nigerian Film Adaptation 

message: Specifically, the paragraph comprising "[p]art 3". Could anyone please tell me if it needs splitting?--Thylacine24 (talk) 21:18, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Be bold. If if you think you can improve it, do so. H. Carver (talk) 15:34, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph that I think needs splitting 

message: Things fall apart  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.231.239.213 (talk) 14:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literature 

message: Write the above done in different paragraphs to avoid confusion. 102.85.220.75 (talk) 03:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well written themes and character traits