Talk:Dave Guard

message: Rough collection of info. Green caterpillar 22:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2006 comment

message: Okay, so tell me what you'd like to see done?
I know this article is "live", but please note that this article is essentially an on-going  rewrite of the original stub that was here.  My work is based on personal knowledge of Dave Guard -- I went to school with him at Punahou, was on the football and track teams with him.  And also from many digging through many, many web pages scattered here, there, and everywhere over the Internet.
I've also got a related article that's in development (see "Whiskeyhill Singers") and is also "live" (it started out a stub, though), so you might want to take a look at that, although it's an article about one of Dave Guard's musical groups, and is intended to be a related but separate article.   I'd appreciate any comments about that article as well.
I also have another biographical article I'm writing that's "live" (see "W.A.N.T.").  Comments on that article would also be appreciated.  It's being developed from cassette tapes, videotape, and a 250-page autobiography by Busemeyer that I've been given by his family.  Comments on that will also be appreciated.
Then finally, I've got an academic article I'm writing (on my Talk page) about the tip wage credit.  That one's almost, but not quite ready to go to review before I put it up live.
Thanks/regards,
Ken 
K. Kellogg-Smith 21:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Wikify" notice? 

message: I wonder why the article uses Bob Shane's birth name rather than his performing name? Most people will expect the latter , and there's already a Wiki article about him under Bob Shane. If Shane was still going by Schoen in quartet days, then maybe the thing to do is to revise the sentence to indicate that he later changed the spelling of his name to the stage version.
On a perhaps-related matter--your comment above indicates that much of your knowledge of Guard is based on personal acquaintacnce. This is going to make problems eventually, since most Wiki editors will see this information as original research (OR) and tag it as such. (I've encountered this issue with several topics on which I have personal knowledge or not-yet-published original research.) The main guideline for this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOR. It often feels counter-intuitive, especially when there are errors or distortions in the public record or received wisdom on a topic, but we're stuck with it in Wikipedia. The challenge in constructing an entry is to be able to justify any given point by referring to a reliable source. It can get to be a bit of a game, but I suppose this is a leisure activity for most of us. (And if you're a contemporary and classmate of Dave Guard, you might have some information about the Cultural Renaissance period I'd like to hear about for a book I'm working on.) RLetson 17:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Schoen/Shane?

message: Commendations for your ongoing work on developing a reliable article on this seminal but under appreciated figure in American music history. I have some comments of both a general and specific nature which I would offer before going in and doing an edit by myself
a) The section on "Military Service" is completely out of place because first, Guard had none, and second, your use of the word "presumably" for his draft registration. This section reflects a topic that may be of interest to the writer (classmates?) but is of no consequence whatsoever in terms of what makes Guard of interest to a reader of an encyclopedia.
*Perhaps a brief lesson in U.S. military history is in order here.  From the time Guard turned 18 he was subject to the federal military draft, which was had been in effect since before the Korean War.  Like all males in the U.S. at that time, Guard was required to register with his local draft board in the Territory.  No one was exempt from the draft.  Dave was at that time, like all males between the ages of 18 and 36, required by federal law to serve our country with at least eight years military service, with at least two years of that service being on active duty in either the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps (thank you Congress and President Eisenhower).  College deferments delayed a student from being drafted, and many of Guard's classmates selected the branch of service they would eventually have to serve in by enrolling in campus Naval and Army R.O.T.C. units, were commissioned officers upon graduation, and served four years of their eight year military obligation in the armed forces as officers (instead of enlisted men).  Upon completion of at least two years of their eight year military obligation, the remainder of the eight years not served on active miltary duty could be served in Reserve units.  As a result of the draft, any eligible male who did not further their formal education after turning 18 were subject to being drafted at any time, and many were.  That same draft law was in effect during the administrations of presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson,and Nixon, i.e., was in effect during the Vietnam war, and since the possiblity of being drafted was on everyone's mind as the Vietnam war intensified,the draft was demonstrably the cause of much student unrest, protest, sit-ins, draft card burnings, and other related demonstrations all across the country during the late 1960's, including the student killings by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State, and fleeing to Canada to avoid the draft.  So the section of Guard's "Military Service" was in my mind and experience very relevant, as it would be to anyone who came of age when Guard did.   Why didn't Guard serve any time in the military?  Was playing guitar gigs in smoky bars considered to be deferable employment?  But pounding nails as a carpenter or carpenter's helper wasn't?  Well, I can certainly understand why an editor born after the Nixon administration ended the military service draft obligation, an editor who never heard about "the draft", an editor who never had to face the anguish of the actuality or possibility of an interrupted education or an interrupted life as Guard's peers everywhere in the U.S. did at the time the Trio was experiencing fame and fortune, would think the "Military Service" section of this article was "out of place".K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 03:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Re the last sentence: Certainly so, Mr. K-S - but you would not be adressing me on that point at all, since I was born in the Truman administration, had to register for the draft (or decide not to, as was the choice of some of us in the mid-60s), and had to deal with most of the same considerations regarding deferments and service that Guard did (and at least when I was eligible, the commitment total was 6 years total - 2 active duty, 2 active reserve, 2 inactive reserve) - and this during a time of a shooting war, which was the case (winding down) when DG turned 18 in 10/52 but was not so for the remainder of his six or eight years of eligibility. The draft in the period between Korea and Vietnam was, as you must know, a hit (Elvis) or miss affair, mostly miss. Most draft boards from 1954-1964 had very low quotas, and as you also must recall, deferments abounded: full time college student including graduate school or professional school; marriage; children. Vietnam began peeling off the deferments one by one until the beginning of the lottery in 1969. Now, my point regarding that section was that since DG had no military service, there is no relevance regarding it as far as his notability goes. Perhaps this is not so - maybe growing up in the heavily militay islands for a period of time in the 40s did in fact have a shaping influence on him as a musician and person. But to say so here, you need documentation, more than a presumption. Are there any sources in which DG made reference in any way to the military? If so, then they can be added to the article. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 08:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone should be very careful concerning authorship and copyright for any material associated with the Kingston Trio, and perhaps other "folk" artists of that era.  For instance, the authorship for the song "You're Gonna Miss ::Me" ( on the "Goin' Places LP) is attributed to "Seeger, Paley, Cohen, Guard".  But the same song was recorded by Charlie Poole in New York City on September 18, 1926, entitled "Leaving Home" for Columbia Records.  This can be verified by reading the liner notes to "Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers", JSP Records # 7734A, (London, U.K.; 2004) and listening to the piece.  It could scarcely be said to have even been re-arranged, and the words, if not identical, are hardly different.  The Trio's feud with Jean Ritchie over the authorship of "Shady Grove", along with other facts regarding the Kingston Trio, is contained in Scott Weissman's book "Which Side Are You On?", which was released in 2007.  It seems lots of folks were playing fast and loose with copyright and authorship in the early days of folk music, along with rock music as well.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Sparkman (talk • contribs) 14:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Very good stuff, Sensei48. I made some minor changes here, nothing with content really. Maybe discog should be split out to new article?Airproofing (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Also reading this brings up a point I struggled with in doing the album entries: How to clarify the "credits" for the songs? A conundrum as the guideline is to use the credited composer, yet Reynolds didn't write "Hangman" for instance, yet is listed on all releases as such. Some kind of disclaimer is needed, but I didn't want to put it on every album page.Airproofing (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Talking Points 

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