Talk:Prostitution in Thailand

message: I find that this article is very offensive to people of Thailand. Wikipedia should not be a place like tabloid to promote this kind of story. There is prostitution everywhere in the world. Why should prostitution in Thailand be the only one that is singled out? dhanakorn 02 May 2005
:Prostitution can be described per country. Living in Thailand for over 6 years, I know it is a serious problem here. So I feel it like prostitution in ANY country in the world deserves seperate attention. I as a foreigner am approached at least a couple of times a week. I speak Thai, and every taxidriver and tuktuk drivers first question is .... want a lady, want to go massage. I am usually avoiding Sukhumvit and Silom areas. But I live in Huay Kwang, near Ratchada. Which is as you know one of the centers of Thai prostitution for the Thai male. Having visited some places there I know the clientele is mostly Hi-so Thais. So you cannot deny really it is a fact of life in Thailand. and not just Thailand. In most Asian countries from Japan (students) to India it is the same! Waerth 08:07, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Prostitution is a major (but not primary) issue in Thailand, especially in term of tourism industry. prostitution business concept itself is even controversial in its legality and in term of ethics. I believe it is valid to point of this aspect, but please do so in NOV and refrian from shifting the encyclopedia article into guide-to-sex-tourism-in-thailand. --underexpose 00:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I tried to help balance in the intro to the article but unfortunately it has been edited out as POV.  If anything it was neutral and the editor didnt even have the balls to challenge this or even post a one line comment... so I guess it is culturally offense to a THAI again and I APPOLOGISE TO ALL THAI PEOPLE WHO MAY BE OFFENDED - go to history and look at the article before Jan 27 and it will be better! Regards Mattjs 12:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Compare with 14 JAN 2006 as that was a good article!  MY APPOLOGIES AGAIN! Mattjs 12:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is very offensive

message: Thailand is not being singled out; it was the subject of a long and detailed explanation on the main "Prostitution" page and I felt that it was worth preserving (with some modifications, as it's a topic I'm familiar with) but moving to it's own page.
Such topics as the prostitution trade in the US (where it's illegal, with the minor exception of Nevada), Amsterdam and other European RLDs, etc are also, at least to my mind, worthy of being split out to their own articles with at least a basic explanation of how the trade tends to operate there.  Just my opinion, of course.
See also Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands, Prostitution_in_New_Zealand, Prostitution_in_Nevada, for example.
::There is a Featured Article on Prostitution in the People's Republic of China.Rlevse 12:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't take offense 

message: Removed the following unsourced POV statement from the article: "Thailand is considered one of the major destinations of sex tourists because of the increasing number of children brought into the sex industry."   Sorry, this statement is POV at worst and an off the cuff uneducated guess at best.  If anything the Thai government has done much to DECREASE the number of children trafficed by the sex industry.  Also it does not follow that an increase in child prostitutes is the reason that Thailand is a sex tourist destination.  Only a VERY VERY small percentage of sex tourists are pedophiles.  Change the words "sex tourists" in the removed line to "English teachers" and you can quickly see how POV the statement is.  Anyhow... -Oscar Arias 16:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed unsourced POV statement 

message: Please read this statement, at the start of the article: "Prostitution has existed in Thailand for a long time, and was not introduced by westerners despite popular myths. As early as the 16th and 17th centuries, prostitution was described in reports by sailors visiting Thailand (then called Siam). Thailand has gained notoriety in the west as a sex tourism destination since the Vietnam war, although most prostitutes in Thailand serve Thai males."
I've come across this attitude, where Western (presumably) writers try to absolve themselves of any responsibility for social problems across the globe. This is not just not NPOV, but an attempt to "blame" Thai society for a serious problem it faces.
It overlooks the geo-political reality of the region, and the forces that gave sex-work in Thailand a big boost in recent decades. From the US herself Dr Cleo Odzer, who did her PhD on Patpong (and whose own life story is quite something, but that's another story, see 'Goa Freaks') makes this point well when she writes: "Though the Vietnam war may have boosted Patpong into the entertainmentindustry, Thailand's reputation as a sex paradise took off on its own at the war's end. Germany arranged cheap charter flights. Holland organized sextours. As Taiwan and Japan grew prosperous, their males flew in too. Many Americans from the war chose not to go home. The saying was that there were no MIAs in Vietnam; in reality they were all MIBs--Mischiefing In Bangkok." (See http://desires.com/1.1/Features/patpong.html ) 
Most sex-workers in most parts of the globe provide their services to local males. That is not the only issue here. Without the big money coming in from overseas (guestimates exist about how much of the GPD this contributes to in Thailand), the phenomenon of prostitution in Thailand would have probably not grown to such an extent.
In sum, this 'we are not to blame' attitude is surely no NPOV, and let the facts be stated. --fredericknoronha 19:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your point.  Obviously there would be less prostitution in Thailand if there were no sex tourists, but the vast majority of Thai prostitutes cater to Thais.   What other facts do you want to state? HenryFlower 15:06, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I have not ssen statistics to prove or disprove such a thheory, but in fairnessthe statement was not that most Thai males use prostitutes, it was that most Thai prostitutes service Thais.  Dainamo (talk) 13:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blame game? 

message: I removed this paragraph, as it is unsourced and the estimate given differs dramatically from the one we have sourced.
:According to one such estimate,  there are as many as 130,000 people, both men and women, employed in the sex trade.
AxelBoldt 17:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Estimates

message: Is it true that the age of consent for a non-sex worker is 15?  If so, then how did rock star Dag of band Big Ass get into trouble for having sex with that 17 year old girl?  Could somebody please clarify.
I will try and explain as far as I understand it:  Yeah, the age of consent is 15 but the age at which you can work in a bar and/or exchange sex services for money, (in another Thai law or statute), is apparantly 18 and last I was there (2004) it had just gone up to 20.  So I wouldn't make a habit of sleeping with anyone under 20 if I were you.  Make sense? 
Note also that many western countries including Australia and the UK now have child sex tourism laws on the books which means for example that an Australian probably couldn't sleep with a 15 year old in Thailand even if he or she wanted to as the age of consent back here is 16 and you could potentially get arrested when you get home.  (Although the constitionality of some of these extra-territroial laws is in question (ultra-vires and all that).
Its always a good idea to know the law before you experiment. (I can even quote you the statistics and estimate the risk of HIV transmission for regular coitus in Thailand ~1 in 200,000 or so.)
So remember, always use a (new) condom, treat her or him with respect, know the law, and play nice. Mattjs 17:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since prositution is illegal in Thailand, I cannot understand how any separate age of consent would exist in this conext.  Note also that in some countries with a low age of consent, the lower ages may only relate to indiviudals of that age or a presrbied number of years ahead of that, not an age of consent for any adult to be with a child.  Dainamo (talk) 13:40, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Age of consent - 15 or 18? 

message: Although Wikipedia does include articles which deal primarily with human trafficking, child prostitution, etc, I feel as thought this article reads a little like a travel magazine. I'd like to see more detail in relation to the standard of living the average Thai prostitute enjoys, as well as some figures regarding violence against sex workers in the country (or Bangkok, in particular). I've seen quite a bit in the media lately of allegations of corruption within the police and other public authorities, for example. Could anybody here shed some light on those issues? --Alexis 06:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Human rights

message: I hope no one minds my intro edits.  I thought the bit about Westerners introducing prostitution that was edited out was ok myself, although it was pure rumour it was introduced as same and did give an inkling of one of the many complex and contradictory Thai perspectives and popular beliefs.  Because of the complex and culturally/temporally variable sexual mores involved a mention of versismilar western mores (from the same time) not spoken about amounst polite western society (today or yesterday but nevertheless acted upon behind closed doors at that time) is surely in order to present a much maligned Thailand in  a more objective, factual, and historical light. Mattjs 11:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: intro edits

message: I've added the  template because at times the article seems to be acting as a guidebook or directory, for example giving the addresses of places where cheap sexual services can be found. This needs to be dealt with. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 12:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I totally agree. I first felt the need for "censor" some sections, but after some thinking I realised that I would just get reverted. Wikipedia seems to function as a form of guide book in many ways which aren't that honorable, not just like in this article, but for example in giving the exact internet adresses to download different porn movies etc. --Konstantin 17:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I removed the first intro line as usless and POV in line with your own edits... It adds nothing but implies that prostitution is longer lived in Thailand than other place which it is not neither is it cited. :-) Mattjs 14:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone 

message: For an article on Prostitution in Thailand there is very little explanation of local culture and custom!? For example no mention of polygamic traditions etc. the King of Thailand's equivalent of a harem etc. etc., its a shame I had covered some of this in my earlier but now editied out intro...  This alone could serve to improve to tone of the article.  Problem with Thailand is Prositution and attitudes to sex are extremely contradictory: by turns permissive and conservative at the same time through diffrent classes and segments of society as a whole including gender and I wonder about chinese influences as I know there are some Buddhist ones also... information like this unfortunately very hard to document and cite Mattjs 10:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to read through some of the referenced material and improve on this section particularly reference/footnote 2 which is quite a detailed academic article online on Thai sexual mores and culture that looks quite interesting and will compliment my detailed studies of Thailand. ;-) Mattjs 12:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Position in society and extent of prostitution 

message: Objections:
# The individual in the photo is goddam ugly!
# The individual in the photo is (I estimate with better than 90-95% certainty as a qualified expert) a "lady-boy" - and whilst I have no objections whatsoever per se - I merely think it should be labeled accurately! (laughing)
If no one has satisfactory objections to my objections I will add "lady-boy" to the image label. But if you still do object:
# You need to have your head examined!
# You have not been to Thailand and so therefore are not qualified to object. Mattjs 17:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shit I think I recognize the bar! It looks like Kings Corner, certainly the bar is very reminiscent of the style of gogo bars in the Patpong area.  There are less than a handful amoungst them that still have lady-boys freely mixed with women on stage: Kings Corner and possibly one or two nearby. Mattjs 17:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: (laughing) In fact I am sure wikipedia's own rules require contents to the clear and accurate so there can really be no objections! (laughing agian)! Mattjs 18:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Some bars employ kathoey ("ladyboys") exclusively, catering to male customers. Many of these look amazingly like women, especially to the untrained eye." well not this one boys!! HAHAHA Mattjs 18:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Do you actually think it is not a "ladyboy"?? 220.240.58.190 07:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you actually read what I wrote? --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 12:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean the comment on your edit "tidying, MoSing"? Lets wait see what the author/poster of the photo has to say. Mattjs 19:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was asked by Mattjs what the nature of the photo is. Without entering this debate, I will say that yes, I took the photo when I was in Bangkok in 2002. I understand why there are assumptions that this is a ladyboy, as 'its' face looks quite manly. With that said, I talked to 'it' for period of time, and can testify that with the tiny bikini thong it was wearing, there was absolutely no substance underneath - hence no male equipment. Granted, that does not mean it was not once a man - however, I would argue that in proper usage a 'lady-boy' refers to a man, who is still fully equipped, who simply dresses himself as a women and markets himself to others as a women (sometimes explicitly declaring he has male equipment, sometimes not). That is, a 'lady-boy'still has a package - this person did not have a package. Therefore it is arguably wrong to label it as a lady-boy. GREGorof → talk 18:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK so it didn't have a package so perhaps the "ladyboy" adjective doesnt apply, so it was perhaps what we would call a transvestite or perhaps in more contemporary lingo a "transgender".  Would you agree that the individual concerned is or was formerly a man with a package??  (Note that the package may still be there but neatly hidden internally or behind as such prostitutes are often want to do when offering oral services whilst continuing to parade themsleves as now female and without said former package.)  I continue to argue that this was clearly: (A) "transvestite" (cross-dresser) or (B) "transgender" (cross-dressing having had the package removed and gender re-assigned) person and should not therefore be represented as otherwise in an Encyclopedia and in accordance with wikipedia. Mattjs 19:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The caption currently reads "A dancer at a go-go bar along Patpong, in Bangkok." I fail to understand how this caption, implicitly or explicitly, states it is not a lady boy - it is an ambigous statement: A dancer (of course) can be a man, a women, a transvestite, or a "lady-boy" - it could arguably even be a cartoon character, or a peacock. This picture is most certainly not being "represented as otherwise" as you assert. GREGorof → talk 23:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hell, i just want to see a decent looking photo (with or without any packages) if it was a good looking tranny I wouldnt be objecting!  So if you want to post an ugly one that clearly isn't a native born female I am going to ask for that adjective.  Mattjs 19:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unworthy of reply. GREGorof → talk 23:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed. Bottom line is this dispute is of no consequence to the article. GREGorof → talk 23:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Photo 

message: Thai culture’s approach to the emotional and sensual is very different to the West’s, especially English speaking countries, with initial examples of culture shock including the views down Walking Street in Pattaya or Sukhumvit soi 4 in Bangkok and their rich flux of people and possibilities, complemented by the luxuriously hot and sultry climate. There’s a continuity with ordinary life that mystifies Thais as to what Westerners’ inhibitions can possibly be; unhappiness and repression exists in the bars and nightclubs of the West rather than beyond it, young people struggling badly to meet each other and even to make any friends at all in their alienated materialistic environment. Their society gives little idea about how emotional life works and the numbers of stressed, dejected faces in the Western nightclub is sickening, the whole situation for them abusive.
Western thought is articulated and compartmentalized whereas much older Indian-Asian thought is holistic and understated, with cultivation of the individual built into the social structure, encompassing rather than constraining it; many Asian and African cultures have an unbounded character with for instance words, activities and buildings blended into each other. Western socialization by contrast brings the naivety of foregrounded ideas, self-consciousness, insular immaturity and a lack of confidence that feeds on its own cloistered lies about the world- in England it’s really hard even to feel an adult at all. Instead of American and Western freedom and self-expression located more on the surface of society as concepts to insist on and be reminded about, above repressive less stated norms beneath, Thai freedom is inbuilt on deeper levels with strong village community and Dionysian interconnection, procuring personal development indirectly and naturally.
Apollonian Western presuppositional norms being more intellectually than intuitively derived define only themselves and are thus antagonistic towards all others, whereas Dionysian Asian norms being more abstract and less conceptual typically have the civilized qualities of compatibility and universality. Western norms are aligned with rationale and intellectual account, and the accompanying fear that they fail to provide true grounding- they encompass a narrow and hence repressive and ultimately completely false range of experience. By contrast toleration is fundamental to Buddhism and similarly Hindu temples may have not only their own deities but side alters to the Virgin Mary, Mohammed or others: despite their fundamental normative character both acknowledge other systems of thought as means to similar not rival insights and are central expressions of more holistic understanding. The absence of non-Christian images in a church or images in a mosque reflects the prominence of restrictive arbitrary dogma and principles and closed systems of thought. Cultural norms and religions are beyond rational reconciliation and fundamental to one’s particular outlook but Dharmic Asian religions and their emphasis on what is not inherently embrace all possibilities in their non-confrontational and pacifist, intuitively interconnected natures.
Many Asian and black African cultures confound articulated thought and make concentration in the usual Western sense difficult, but bring a mature non-specific focus and sophistication. In the Thai language for instance vowels keep cutting in, defying the articulating consonants- the very sound is open and light without seeking arbitrary closure and the castles in the sky of lost mental processes; likewise there are constant obstacles on pavements blocking route and vision, skytrain stations obscuring views down the road and eye level machinery at checkouts once again bouncing the attention back, hinting at interconnection in the mind rather than things transparently themselves. Typical of these cultures Thailand has an unreality about it, a fundamental disbelief in material life per se- the signs and lights of businesses for instance don't quite look like they mean it and everywhere is a slightly carefree attitude, reflecting Buddhist notions of impermanence rather than attachment to the ever-changing material world. Rational Apollonian is integrated into intuitive Dionysian, logic issuing from the inward sensuous riot rather than imposed from without; light but deep and rich colours are also used- elegance plus seething inward interest in the static.
Western Christianity’s gross denial of sexuality, integral to its offensive concept of suffering at the basis of life, contrasts with Asian images of Gods having sex with each other or mortals and complex phallic, vaginal and erotic imagery located in temples and routinely throughout society. In the Western medieval there was somewhat better understanding of the links between sex and the spiritual but modernity’s rationality and overwhelming shift to discursive thought has hindered the awareness of God and the unity integral to our relationship with the world. An example of the lack of disjunction between Thai religion and sexuality are Buddha altars with candles and incense burning found in and around massage parlours or go-go bars, which all wai to as they pass; everywhere retains a sense of quiet, the whole beneath the surface, providing a harmony free of confused principles or simplistic, fixed conceptualisation about life: everything is possible, because everything in life really is.
Sex is hidden beneath life’s surface as the absolute or transcendent is hidden within the relative or material, but this relationship has unity in one being dependent on the other: sex is for-itself Dionysian activity distinct from relative means to ends activity but actually underlies it as all action is subject-subject rather than subject-object in nature, and there is no abstractedly instrumental activity. Hence though sex cannot be foregrounded it should hardly be repressed or continuous with disgrace or disapproval, being the foundation of reality and human life, well-being and happiness. The horrific error of Christian and Islamic Apollonian cultures is the initial normative presupposition of sex’s wrongfulness when it is the essence of truth, light and the mature mind: they assume everything should be transparent on the surface when truth must reside under it because of its ultimately unstatable nature and transcendent reference. Only from this basis should articulated thought arise, not from capricious, self-generating Apollonian principles and normative systems imposed after sex and truth are lost.
Thai culture normalizes sexuality in its fullness and boundlessness, providing tremendous inner energy and vigour: the scope and range of possibility embraced also suggests it’s a country of the future, with huge potential and a durable base for massive development. The sheer power of the culture’s openness, limitlessness and compass of thought as centred on the understanding of sexuality is phenomenal, with self-consciousness and opprobrium unknown in the parlours, bars’ high quality erotic shows, nude dancers, and availability of genuine relationships with fabulously beautiful girls. The bars and shows, especially those attracting the most beautiful girls, are enormously sophisticated, embracing the rich complexity of possibilities and requirements of personal relations; the men look to the girls and their power and choice, often tremendously confident and accomplished, super-cool, in touch with their sexuality yet imperturbably demure, and very observant with anyone’s movements and expressions counting, real on-edge stuff. Likewise in the shows the greatest relish and satisfaction is taken in sexual expression and being watched and admired, really into it, writhing on beds, using all kinds of gear, and sometimes having a bash at Christianity for instance routines with feet washing or strapped on phalluses under nuns cloaks; the dispatch, candour and proficiency is unforgettable, and everything taking place behind a thick sultry intoxicating gauze, in the world but fabulously not of it, providing some of the most important and fantastic of all culture shock.
Once you know them girls talk with openness about sex, the giving of oneself in sex being much less a barrier or compromise as its unity with life is maintained at a high level; sexual matters arising in conversation that in the West would be deeply problematic are dealt with easily and ungratuitously- they have sex not cluelessly talk about it. Many girls also are excellent in bed with good skills and knowing what they like, while alive to the importance of long term relations- it’s a place to meet a few and then marry one. There’s much to gain and few places offer such opportunity and scope for self-development, the maturity, authority and freedom here underlining just how infantile and backward a place like England is. There’s little prostitution here, the relations between people not being broken down into categories but retaining their natural subtle blending. If the man and his life are well organized and he treats a girl well he’ll be treated likewise, this being the only reason the scene works so well: every girl looks for a man who’s got ahead in the world with the money to look after her, and it’s important she always takes some especially if he’s from a more developed economy, though she’s unlikely to count it, even look at it or not take it graciously. The affluent man is more attractive- wear a good shirt, trousers, shoes and expensive watch, and book into a comfortable mid-range hotel; a good physique will also add much to your credentials.
The bargirls can be watched deciding who to talk to and who’re the more attractive propositions as protectors and providers: they won’t meet the man or will make their excuses if there’s anything about him they dislike or he makes mistakes. He needs to be with it and once a girl agrees to leave with him, expects him to be her boyfriend and treat her as the Goddess she is: always take her to a good restaurant and for instance other bars, shows, pool hall, bowling, massage or event. Unless it didn’t work well, he must of course see only her from that bar for as long as she dances there, all as with only one massage girl from a parlour, showing due commitment, justifying her and her standing in others’ eyes and avoiding affecting her friendships with other girls. Thai girls are a real phenomenon- here has the highest proportions of beautiful and extremely beautiful women in the world, with their personalities endowed with an extraordinary and disarming lift and allure: Thai culture is feminized in its poise, grace and watchfulness, with rounded language sounds, holistic thought and girls put on pedestals like nowhere else, dressing in beautiful sexy clothes. Women are behind successful men, the world evolving because of the movement towards them and the divine they embody, and Thai culture’s remarkable strength out of sensuality provides conditions for the huge Pattaya building projects driven by the girls: men will do anything for them.
The Thais readily converse- to go to any bar and talk and play games with someone, them responding in a human way to seeing you alone and being pleased to meet you, is such a contrast to the reserved and bitching, worried attitudes at an English bar, everyone too afraid to say a thing. The hostility, snootiness and whatever sick and ludicrous barriers there are between them shows the extent of the lost of their very humanity, regarding such socializing as too forward or at best a curious novelty- life a novelty. It can’t be underlined enough how gross and offensive the English social normative background is- people go to the same bar for 20 years, notice each other there over all that time, never exchange a single word and think that’s normal; coming from such psychosis and perversion the impact of these places can be life-changing.
The liberated bar scene and presence of completely genuine girls to meet however is something many Westerners have difficulty handling, their response being sometimes to make a fool of themselves- against all manners they'll dance on the stage with the girls or be obscene, with confusion and helplessness on their face; also revealing are the men filling Pattaya nightclubs, getting drunk and totally wasting their time when there are beautiful girls to meet across the street in the bars- bargirls routinely see Westerners as crazy. Also happy hours at outdoor bars can be popular with Western expatriates: the rowdiness, badmouthing and fights that break out, aggravated by an underlying fear of and hence contempt for the culture they’re in, particularly from the English, is shocking- the Thais with their courtesy and refinement are appalled and it only highlights the differing levels of civilization. Also instead of all speaking quietly as do the Thais, so each can hear their own conversations undisturbed, their unbelievable attitude is for each to shout above the rest: they simply bring their culture with them and want desperately to think it’s superior- the mindlessness of savages and hooligans in an atmosphere of antagonism and violence lying just below the surface. They’ll even stare in jealousy and hatred at you all as in an English bar, a pathetic strategy inviting a fight, because you’re talking to your girl and her friends at the next table- and this may be at Nana Plaza where there are many hundreds of girls to meet, yet at least in their present mind frames they’re so spineless and ineffectual they haven’t got it in them to charm any one of them. Moreover whereas the view of the park on Sukhumvit Road may include dignified groups practicing tai chi while others fly kites, British parks see belligerent skate-boarding, strong larger, bad language, resentment and fear. And once up above soi 4 was a giant hoarding of a beautiful woman looking concerned with a man kissing the side of her face and smiling reassuringly, underneath reading ‘The power of gentleness’- romance doesn't occupy such a place in the West.
Also Thais’ use of mobile phones on the skytrain or subway is sparing, often with a hand to cover the mouth or moving to a wall, showing respect for others’ presence. Westerners using not just phones but all manner of ridiculous equipment attached to their heads discuss at volume their work, life and whatever rubbish, thinking how clever and important they are; the English language even spoken quietly sounds like the speakers are having to try hard, whereas Thai naturally sounds discreet and calm. There are guards positioned at all stations and even in underground walkways, everything being civilized, safe and upstanding without chance for creeps or drunks to invade- no confused ideas about delinquents' rights are entertained or shocking conduct excused as individuality. Hualampong station is a good example of the quiet simmering intelligence, contrasting with its scattering of Westerners with their childish skimpy clothes and aggressive stance, trying hard to be positive in a culture already providing the assurance and clarity they’re looking for: thought needs founding on holistic Dionysian fundamentals and attempts to stamp a foregrounded rational order on reality are contrived and subject to revision. There are also orderly procedures on the trains, with more movement than necessary around discouraged, people vacating bunks themselves in time for clearing bedding, and designated guards responsible for each carriage. Moreover there’s more fresh food and the 7-11 shops sell little chocolate and only in small sizes, not the huge arrays of juvenile indulgence: the West’s high obesity rates reflect its profligacy and obscene consumption of the majority of the world’s resources.
The world is losing much with postmodernity and the bevelling of all cultures, perhaps not in underlying ways but at least superficially: encroaching Western expectations, distractions and showiness have meant Thailand isn’t as potent and devastating an experience as in the mid ‘90s- even the music and tone of the bars less cheerful, melody obliterated by driving rhythms as materialism obliterates genuine life concerns. There’s been a increase in low appeal shows and American dance tables in bars to bring in more people from the simplistic horde driven democratic West, in place of great maturity, inner complexity and quality atmosphere where you could better watch, think and approach a girl. Rationality has been abstracted from its proper use and corrupted as false aims have arisen, as similarly with parlours in the past being well organized for good Dionysian sex now more interested in appearances, for instance using soap instead of oil: sex is inwardly not outwardly focussed but Westerners’ skewed and repressive cultures resituate their attention in ways bad even for small minds. Thailand in the past had a society somewhat more inwardly focussed and refined, with a quieter environment with more foliage and less Westernization, and the Thais need only to properly invest in their incredible culture not alter it. It remains however one of the world’s top few most powerful with pure and unmatched perspectives on sensuality, allowing people whoever they are and whatever their orientation a unique fullness of self-expression.
Revised 6th May 08
Sean McHugh 02Sean McHugh 02 (talk) 05:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:   Some thoughts on Thai 'prostitution' 

message: These are two words I wish to see continue to be contained within the article.  
The first is now confied to a quote but I will live with that and this leads us to the naturally to the second: most of the comments in this discussion page relate to it --- take a look!!! mia noi which means "minor wife" relates to an isolated (never colonized and therefore westernized and christianized) Thailand polygamist tradition right up into modern times (for the rich of course) and two words relate intimately therefore to an objective understanding of sexual relations and norms and customs (mores again) and therefore Prostitution in Thailand.
If I find these words edited out again I will agressively and bluntly edit them back in again with a vengence and editors will feel my wrath in prosecuting the interests of wikpedian mores of NPOV!!! 122.148.173.37 (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''[[mia noi]]'', sexual [[mores]], and [[polygamy]]

message: There is no way that is true.  Whoever made that study had an agenda and even though it may be documented, that is absolutely false.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.143.74.155 (talk) 07:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  40% of prostitutes are children 

message: Hi! What right do we have to call prostitution clients and even those who married the prostitutes 'abusers'? Is anyone who marries a thai girl an "abuser"?--MathFacts (talk) 10:42, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Men are abusers if they have sex. That's just the way it is. We need to listen more to the feminists for they are wise.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.242.117.214 (talk) 09:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  some have even married their abusers 

message: Dear user Rak-Tai, with your edit here you deleted a sizeable portion of text and you described your action as "Reverted added material lacking citations" in the edit summary. I reverted your edit as several citations were in place for the text which you had deleted. With your latest edit, where you revert my revert, you suddenly now use quite a different edit summary: "this section is almost verbatum from the article (plagiarism). If you add it, please use proper references 'ref' 'ref' and acknowledge borrowed material with quotes". I had seen whilst reverting your original deletion, that part of the text had indeed been quoted directly from the source provided but as that was not the argumentation used by you to delete these sections, I reverted your actions, wanting to rephrase the quotes sometime later. Perhaps you could have, instead of deleting the same section again but now using a completely different reason for doing so, rewritten it such that it would not be a verbatim quote any more. The (several) references provided were correctly formatted as is required with only one exception. Seeing that you apparently just do not like what had been written in the deleted section, I shall spare you the task of rewriting it by rephrasing the deleted text sometime soon and placing that back in to the article. The deleted sections do seem important for how Thai society views prostitution. Seeing that they come from a reliable source, it would be a pity to just throw it out. - Takeaway (talk) 12:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My reasons for deleting the recently-added material were varied. Primarily, much of the additions did not follow the "cite your sources<fef></ref>" requirement for new material. Then, examination of the material reveals that it was rather plagiarized material. Further, which should also be considered in adding material, the source was based on rather small study groups, and very outdated as such material becomes: "Data for our analysis were collected through the dual techniques of focus-group discussions and focused in-depth individual interviews. A total of 14 focus groups involving 113 participants were held in Bangkok (with factory workers, residents of organized slums, and middle-class occupational groups), two provincial towns in the Central region, and villages in the surrounding area of the two towns. The field work took place during the latter part of 1993 and early 1994." http://htc.anu.edu.au/pdfs/Knodel1.pdf. Sexual mores are constantly changing, and a 17-year-old small study hardly warrants such a conclusive addition in any encyclopedia. รัก-ไทย (talk) 07:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Please use proper edit summaries

message: Non-Han Chinese, Ethnic minority women, especially from China's southwestern province like Yunnan are trafficked as prostitutes to southeast asian countries like Thailand and Malaysia. Alot of these women are actually voluntary like the Dai women. They were in demand by Malaysian Chinese clients and some sought to get themselves married to overseas Chinese from those places.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-12925349_ITM
http://www.scmp.com/article/465894/yunnan-women-flock-thai-sex-industry
 
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---asia/---ro-bangkok/documents/publication/wcms_bk_pb_10_en.pdf
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---asia/---ro-bangkok/documents/publication/wcms_bk_pb_7_en.pdf
http://factsanddetails.com/asian/cat66/sub419/item2758.html#chapter-6
Langle village is in a Dai-Lahu dominated autonomous area- Menglian Dai, Lahu and Va Autonomous County, and it is known for exporting prostitutes to Thailand. Mengbin is a Dai village inside of Langle which thrives on this.
http://www.cfguide.com/vil/langle_597389.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/03/international/asia/03china.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/03/world/asia/03iht-china.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=zDCCHUgsvhcC&pg=PA106&dq=dai+prostitutes+thailand&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vkIBU-KbGobi0wHqtYG4BA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=dai%20prostitutes%20thailand&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=zDCCHUgsvhcC&pg=PA107&dq=Dai+sex+work+Thailand&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EUMBU-mqLcTx0gGzmoDIDw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dai%20sex%20work%20Thailand&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=3EWAAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA146&dq=Dai+sex+work+Thailand&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EUMBU-mqLcTx0gGzmoDIDw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Dai%20sex%20work%20Thailand&Definition of Prostitution in the thai Law: "f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=kg5GAAAAMAAJ&q=Dai+sex+work+Thailand&dq=Dai+sex+work+Thailand&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EUMBU-mqLcTx0gGzmoDIDw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwBw
HIV AIDS
http://books.google.com/books?id=nG5ZpQJlpBoC&pg=PA222&dq=Dai+sex+work+Thailand&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EUMBU-mqLcTx0gGzmoDIDw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Dai%20sex%20work%20Thailand&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=UQKyAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA17&dq=dai+prostitutes+thailand&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vkIBU-KbGobi0wHqtYG4BA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=dai%20prostitutes%20thailand&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=nVXxMZOkWr0C&pg=PA91&dq=dai+prostitutes+thailand&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vkIBU-KbGobi0wHqtYG4BA&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=dai%20prostitutes%20thailand&f=false
Lahu 
http://books.google.com/books?id=0S9-AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT199&dq=and+women+for+thesex+industry+in+Thailand,especially+from+highland+minority+groups+in+Burma+and+Yunnan+(+China).&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aQX8Ut34B4fa0QHj44CIBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=and%20women%20for%20thesex%20industry%20in%20Thailand%2Cespecially%20from%20highland%20minority%20groups%20in%20Burma%20and%20Yunnan%20(%20China).&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=0S9-AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT199&dq=yunnan+thailand+prostitute+minority&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2gX8Uu_4CsXv0gGQsoHQBw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=yunnan%20thailand%20prostitute%20minority&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=TeVRY5krNKkC&pg=PT1&dq=Lahu+trafficked+women&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6Aj8Uo-gH6b_0wHx_4GYCQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lahu%20trafficked%20women&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=JJ3ZkzepOzYC&pg=PA138&dq=Lahu+marriage+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ygj8Uoq_CqPk0wGtr4DYDw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Human%20trafficking%20women&f=false
Malaysian Chinese tourists in Thailand drive the demand for ethnic minority prostitutes from China.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ru-q8GVoinsC&pg=PA138&dq=yunnan+minority+women+trafficked&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XAn8UtK_FujS0wHosoGoBQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=yunnan%20minority%20women%20trafficked&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 00:45, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for providing this extensive list of resources, but these citations need to be incorporated into the article in an objective, encyclopedic manner. Unfortunately, previous copyeditors have used this page to voice political opinions about the subject, rather than using it to present verified content. I have made a considerable revision to the "Human trafficking" section today to address this issue, but I will continue to monitor the page. I will also review the information from the above post; however, it would be best if you could use it to contribute the article. Regards,--Soulparadox (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prostitutes from China in Thailand are from ethnic minorities 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just attempted to maintain the sources on Prostitution in Thailand.  I managed to add archive links to 6 , out of the total 6 I modified, whiling tagging 0 as dead.
Please take a moment to review my changes to verify that the change is accurate and correct.  If it isn't, please modify it accordingly and if necessary tag that source with  to keep Cyberbot from modifying it any further.  Alternatively, you can also add  to keep me off the page's sources altogether.  Let other users know that you have reviewed my edit by leaving a comment on this post.
Below, I have included a list of modifications I've made:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20131109003308/http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=91309 to http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=91309
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.wpro.who.int/internet/resources.ashx/HSI/docs/Sex_Work_in_Asia_July2001.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20091030234556/http://www.pattayadailynews.com:80/shownews.php?IDNEWS=0000002956 to http://www.pattayadailynews.com/shownews.php?IDNEWS=0000002956
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110615080824/http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6659022/Sex-workers-and-cultural-policy.html to http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6659022/Sex-workers-and-cultural-policy.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070712223227/http://www.unicri.it/wwd/trafficking/minors/docs/dr_thailand.pdf to http://www.unicri.it/wwd/trafficking/minors/docs/dr_thailand.pdf
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120425194829/http://www.ecpat.net:80/A4A_2005/PDF/EAP/Global_Monitoring_Report-THAILAND.pdf to http://www.ecpat.net/A4A_2005/PDF/EAP/Global_Monitoring_Report-THAILAND.pdf
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 16:09, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources modified on [[Prostitution in Thailand]] 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Prostitution in Thailand. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=91309
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Prostitution in Thailand. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151221063531/http://web.wm.edu/so/monitor/issues/06-2/6-latstetter.htm to http://web.wm.edu/so/monitor/issues/06-2/6-latstetter.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120326111520/http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38872 to http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38872
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090706091534/http://www.unaids.org/en/KnowledgeCentre/Resources/FeatureStories/archive/2009/20090319_SexWork.asp to http://www.unaids.org/en/KnowledgeCentre/Resources/FeatureStories/archive/2009/20090319_SexWork.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131104123511/http://servantworks.com/thewell/ to http://www.servantworks.com/thewell/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This short section of the article has multiple problems.  It begins by referencing sex worker perspectives in several European nations, claims that people engage in prostitution due to financial pressures (don't people engage in any sort of work due to financial pressure?) then quotes a couple of random articles.  
Unless some source has published a survey or done extensive research on the perspectives of sex workers in Thailand, I suggest the section be eliminated. Since individual sex workers' perspectives on the trade are varied and specific to each individual, it is difficult to find a truly representative perspective.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SONORAMA (talk • contribs) 05:24, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is certainly messy and in part non-specific to Thailand. It could also be interpreted as WP:POV. I don't see it adds to the article, so have no objections to its removal. --John B123 (talk) 06:44, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, I removed it.  Now on to fix the section above it, on human trafficking.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SONORAMA (talk • contribs) 11:25, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well done --John B123 (talk) 11:57, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sex Worker Perspectives 

message: I have again removed the category Prostitution by country. It was added with the edit summary "All countries are listed in categorie "Prostitution by country". This is an easy way to switch between different countries and get on this list". That is incorrect, prostitution by area articles are only included in the category Prostitution by country if there is no more specific category.
For counties beginning with 'A', Prostitution in Afghanistan, Prostitution in Albania, Prostitution in Angola, Prostitution in Antigua and Barbuda, Prostitution in Armenia and Prostitution in Azerbaijan are included in Prostitution by country, wheras Prostitution in Algeria‎, Prostitution in Argentina‎, Prostitution in Australia‎ and Prostitution in Austria‎ are not as there are sub-categories for those countries. As there is a category 'Prostitution in Thailand' this article should be in that category but not in 'Prostitution by country' as per convention with all the other prostitution by area articles. --John B123 (talk) 16:20, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: this picture should be remove i don't think they are sex worker or prostitute Lalalulilalia (talk) 19:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: A 2010 thread in a forum of expats living in Thailand discussed the section about the relationship between prostitution and Buddhism in Thailand, which I see remains unchanged since that date. The unanimous opinion was that the section is highly inaccurate and downright offensive. Here goes the link:
<https://aseannow.com/topic/366242-wikipedias-read-of-thai-buddhism-and-prostitution/>Maybe it's time to improve the article? Greetings. Maykiwi (talk) 21:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better Buddhist sources required.