Talk:Taiwan/Archive 5

message: Maybe it's just me, maybe it's too late at night, but after I've read the first paragraph of this article, I am even more confused than when I started. Just thought I'd make that point for what it's worth... Triki-wiki 12:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I hate to be rude, but the start of this article is too hard to understand

message: I don't see how Hakka, Min-nan, and Cantonese (!) became official languages of the ROC. Cantonese is not spoken in Taiwan, at least not more than French is. The Cantonese people fled to Hong Kong, not Taiwan. They can't even make decent dim sum there. How would they also know how to speak Cantonese?
There is one official language: Mandarin. Everything else is irrelevant. This article is not meant to be a translation table. Only the most relevant language should be listed. --Jiang 20:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official languages 

message: Okay, after seeing zhuyin on the page, I now believe that the adding and subtracting of ways to say Republic of China in Chinese is getting ridiculous.
Cycled on and off the page in the past few days have been: 
* Traditional Chinese (needs to be there);
* Simplified Chinese (not neccessary, but wouldn't hurt);
* Tongyong Pinyin (ROC's answer to hanyu);
* Hanyu Pinyin (standard around the world);
* Wade-Giles (no longer defactoly official); and 
* Zhuyin (can only be understood by those educated in ROC or by people from ROC).
I've given my opinion on each of these. This has probably been discussed before, but can we decide this as once and for all as we possibly can? -- Jjjsixsix (t)/(c) @ 02:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for listing all these translations/romanizations is utility. Scripts/romanizations that are common enough to be helpful are trad Chinese, Simp Chinese, Hanyu Pinyin, and Wade Giles. Tongyong Pinyin *might* be helpful given its official status, but zhuyin is used as nothing more than an educational tool. It is not a different way to write or represent Chinese for non-Chinese language educational contexts. The standard for Chinese language education outside of Taiwan is Hanyu Pinyin, so people reading this English lang article who would need an educational tool to help them decipher the Chinese characters would be looking at Hanyu pinyin (also used in English texts as a representation of zhuyin), not zhuyin (which is never found in English texts). Those who know the zhuyin can read the Chinese, so listing zhuyin here is not helpful. --Jiang 03:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no provision at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles) for use of zhuyin as zhuyin is neither a Chinese script, nor a romanization. There also is no established consensus or precedent for using zhuyin (just flip to any Taiwan-related article and you will not find it). The Manual of Style also calls for using both traditional and simplified forms for where they differ. --Jiang 03:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zhuyin is a Chinese script if one considers Taiwan a part of China, isn't it? Though as you point out it certainly isn't a romanization. I'm writing here because I'm a bit curious about the romanization "Jhonghuá Mínguó". What pinyin standard is this? Is it Wade-Giles with Hanyu tone marks or is it some other standard? Rōnin 20:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tongyong Pinyin -- Khepidjemwa'atnefru 23:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: (response to user:Jiang's remarks at 03:31, April 17) As per Wikipedia:naming conventions (use English), only roman letter-based transliteration is neccessary. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles), similarly, only mentions the use of roman letter-based transliteration. — Instantnood 05:18, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese usage 

message: OK, first of all, did ROC on the Mainland claim Hong Kong and Macao as their territory? Secondly, I think the "democratic republic" bit is misleading. ROC's first free election was in 1996, while ROK's was in 1987. It is the oldest independent republic in Asia, but to say that it is the oldest "democratic republic" is incorrect. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 05:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just "oldest" by itself is misleading - Lanfang Republic was a lot older. Should be older *surviving* perhaps. --Sumple (Talk) 08:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it the first one being internationally recognised as a sovereign state? The ROC before 1949 (well, after as well) did not actively claim Hong Kong and Macao, nor did it explicitly recognise them as British and Portuguese posessions. Some works are saying Chiang Kai Shek did demand Winston Churchill to return Hong Kong when the war was over. — Instantnood 13:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The ROC government did not recognise the Treaty of Aigun, under which Ch'ing (Qing) ceded Outer Manchuria to czarist Russia. Yet it has never included Outer Manchuria (Russian Far East) into its maps. — Instantnood 20:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  HK and Macao, also "democratic republic"