Talk:Michael Schumacher/Archive 5

message: Guys - can we keep references in (one of) the proper cite formats please? Direct web links don't go down well at review for GA or FA. Thanks. --4u1e 21:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can only agree with that given that I spent about an hour converting them this week! Mark83 21:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't you need some kind of citation software to do it the other way?Ernham 21:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, see :Category:Citation_templates. Then use what's appropriate, e.g. Template:Cite news. Mark83 21:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs 

message: Nice job totally gutting that. The turn around of Ferrari is considered Schuamcher's greatest achievement by many experts. Trying to relegate it into some pathetic joke of a paragraph is quite ridiculous.Ernham 00:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific? It's hard to respond otherwise. Thanks. Also, you may not be aware of it, but the way you comment on wikipedia can sound very aggressive towards other editors. I would be much happier if we can discuss this article in a polite and friendly manner. Cheers. --4u1e 00:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, aggressive indeed. It's now quite obvious that many of editors on this wiki have no intention of making it a better wiki. No longer can "editorial misunderstandings" suffice in rationalizing such behavior. The gutting is the removal of notable facts regarding the intro of the Ferrari years section. Someone slips things in like "drivers of cars in early 90s". Umm, no. All of those comments were at one point stated by Eddie irvine, who was not racing in the early "90s". One of those three was stated mutually by prost, who was indeed early 90s. Still, the overt attempts to pervert the truth in this wiki are plainly obvious. Seems like such a little thing, but they seem to do it ever sentence, again and again, all adding up to a big fat agenda.Ernham 01:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, and I see you guys did the same on the 1994 launch/traction control scandal. Remove Briatore quotes? Remove the facts that suggest Schuamcher was NOT using the software? Yes, no agenda here whatsoever.Ernham 01:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: OK - the first ref I found for pig turned up all three, um, terms of endearment, from an article in the Telegraph, where they are attributed simply to drivers since 1979. I'll keep looking. --4u1e 01:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Telegraph link here: 
The Briatore quote I removed because that whole section was turning into a piece on Benetton, not Schumacher himself, and this article is too long - I've copied parts of what I removed to both the 1994 Formula One season and the Benetton Formula, so they haven't gone from Wikipedia. Limiting ourselves to Schumacher's culpability or otherwise, let's discuss what is missing from that section. Thanks. --4u1e 01:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: There is evidence Benetton was not using traction/launch control in 1994, thus making it an important inclusion. If you want to include a controversial issue, you need to present it from both sides or not at all. The Ferrari "car" comments, yes, like i said above, prost did make one of those comments, but all three were also later said by eddie irvine (though irvine actually said "fire truck", I thought truck was sufficient).Ernham 01:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's OK - can we have the reference? The exact phrasing ('been called a truck, a pig and an accident waiting to happen') appears in a story that has been syndicated to several websites, including the Telegraph one I linked above, but I can't find it attributed to Irvine anywhere, just to drivers since 1979. Thanks. --4u1e 01:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding Benetton in 1994, the article currently clearly says that the FIA found evidence of launch control software, but had no evidence that it was ever used and found no evidence of traction control software. The only bit missing is Briatore's quote, which obliquely says "We were fitted up". Briatore is not exactly a disinterested observer, his comments adds colour, but minimal content to the paragraph and given the length of the piece can, I feel, be safely omitted.--4u1e 02:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Prost said that driving the Ferrari was like driving a truck. This was the last year he was driving for Ferrari. No idea where to get that exact cite. However, in a British documentary done in the late 90s, Eddie irvine said that the Ferrari "handled like a firetruck", was "a pig"(assumably talking about fuel efficiency, given the context), and "an accident waiting to happen". He may have said some of these prior to it being filmed, however.Ernham 02:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Unfortunately, we can't use that as a reference - If you can get enough detail of the documentary to ref it (I guess - name, year, production company) it becomes more verifiable. In the meantime I will use the Telegraph one for 'drivers from 1979', which I suspect was thinking of Prost for the 'truck' bit. Cheers anyway --4u1e 02:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Living the Fast Life", September Films. 2000. Ernham 02:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool! Would you mind posting the words used, as I did for the Henry hardcopy reference, as you said earlier, offline references are a bit tricky for others to grasp. I'm interested in the context of which year he was referring to - he arrived at Ferrari in 1996, I believe. Thanks again. --4u1e 08:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferrari years gutting 

message: I know what you mean - but the words don't say 'only driver to win the Italian Grand Prix five times' - they say 'Only racing driver ever, in any racing class, to win 5 times at Monza'. (My emphasis) That's a very different statement - If someone else has won, say, 6 Formula 3 races at Monza then the record would not be true! The Indy case is different because until about 1992 there was only one race a year there. Even now there are (I think) only three - the Indy 500, the Brickyard 400 and the United States Grand Prix, so we can easily be sure that no-one else has won five events there. It sounds like we don't have any proof of the record as it is worded. I will re-word it to read 'only driver to win the Italian Grand Prix five times' - although I'm not sure that it's all that notable in the overall context. The headline record is his 8 wins in France. --4u1e 22:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, you're right.--Serte 22:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  5 wins at Monza 

message: Is the sentence
"There were many on-track problems for Schumacher, including collisions with Mark Webber (Turkish GP), Nick Heidfeld (Australian GP), Takuma Sato (Belgian GP) and Christijan Albers (Chinese GP). He would ultimately finish third in the World Championship standings."
required as it seems to be a bit out of place..... --Cyktsui 22:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the sentence got removed =) --Cyktsui 05:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2005-2006 

message: With all due respect to User:Qwerty1936, this new section he introduced, with the title of Legacy, right after the Other incidents section is a step back on all the work other editors have done. That controversy section was filled with POV, bias and weasel words. It was re-written. Now, look at this:
Legacy
The next few seasons will undoubtedly be labelled the 'post Schumacher era' as the retirement of a front runner, for the last decade, kicks in. An immediate change will be at Ferrari, where a new team setup is already being formed. Kimi Raikkonen has been brought in and was widely thought to be a straight swap for Schumacher and be the number 1 Ferrari driver. However, the emergence of Felipe Massa as a Grand Prix winner has put this into question. With all the controversies throughout Schumacher's career, his lasting legacy as the greatest driver in history may have been compromised. His record has no peer and this suggests he has been the most outstanding racer, who ever competed in the sport. However, many former champions have said his 'win at all costs' attitude may favour drivers such as Fangio and Senna as the gratest driver of all time. Damon Hll and Jackie Stewart have recently criticised Schumacher and Hill claimed that F1 will be a better spectacle without him. It is undeniable though, that Schumacher has been the most successful driver in the history of the sport and his retirement will leave a huge void. It remains to be seen if the sport maintains the same level of interest post Schumacher. The rise of Fernando Alonso suggests he could be the dominant driver of this generation, and replace Schumacher, but the latter's flair and thirst for victory may mean he is unreplaceable and leave a lasting legacy, whether it bepositive or negative.
Italics mean unneeded or not relevant to this article.
Bold means POV, Bias
Bold and Italics mean weasel words, or not backed by references
I am going to delete this. Either it is written according to the Wikipedia guidelines, or it is not the best for the article. Let's aim for FA and leave our opinions behind. I too believe Schumacher was the best, but I am not putting that into the article, because it's just my opinion. Cheers abd don't take it personally. And I've seen other contributions of yours. You should create a blog and write all that. It's good stuff. It just doesn't belong in Wikipedia. This is about facts...--Serte * Talk * Contribs 11:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy section - POV strikes back 

message: I should be able to ref the 1991 Schumacher-Jordan-Benetton piece - there's a lengthy section on it in 'The Piranha Club' by Timothy Collings. Might take a couple of days to get round to it though. (You may have noticed that I'm not always the promptest of contributers!) 4u1e. 3 November
:I've found a ref, but it is not as good as I wanted. It's still ok for now. It'd be very cool if you find references for the other statements with [citation needed]. They are in the Benetton years and it is difficult to find references online about them. There is one in 2005 about a statement by Schumacher. I've searched a lot, but didn't find it. We'll probably have to remove it. Cheers --Serte * Talk * Contribs 19:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also found a ref for the 2005 'weapons' quote. The wording in the article was wrong, so I've amended it to match that given in the reference (The Guardian online). Cheers. --4u1e 15:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1991 etc 

message: The current wording of the first paragraph has a few problems. It current reads:
:Some Formula One reporters and analysts have noted the media's, particularly the British media, attempts to vilify Schumacher and diminish his accomplishments using such controversial incidents.
:*'Some Formula One reporters and analysts' is weasel words.
:*It does not match what the references used say.
::- Reference 49 (www.cbc.ca 'Top 10 Michael Schumacher moments') says, referring to the 1994 Adelaide incident, The German driver was vilified in the British press for causing the crash – critics claimed Schumacher, knowing his car was already damaged, intentionally drove back on to the track to try and take Hill out – and the Schumacher-Hill rivalry was born.. It later says, in reference to the 1997 incident, With the Damon Hill incident from 1994 still fresh in everybody's memory, Schumacher was crucified by the press for trying to knock Villeneuve out of the race. (Note, by the way, that this piece is not a very accurate summary - no-one accused Schumacher of driving back onto the circuit to take Hill out!)
::- The opinion piece by Vinesh Nair from Sify.com ('Schumacher bashing, a habit of sorts') is about the 2004 season, not one of those covered in the 'Controversy and criticism' section. The article is a bit long to quote directly here. My understanding of it is that that the first para proposes that the reason for the 'sad Schumacher bashing' is that he is not English. The second para suggest that this is why the story heard is how Schumy is hesitant to go on a all out battle with other drivers on the track rather than in the pit lane, and that you would need an Italian writer report his stunning performances accurately. Most of the rest of the piece describes various performances from Schumacher. The second to last para notes his involvement in developing Ferrari. The final para  says it is painful to see the tight upper-lipped British media maul him like this. It really is his choice to see whether he has to pass other drivers on the track or in pit lane strategy
:*The current version of the sentence conflates two different points made in the references. The first reference supports a statement that Schumacher was vilified in British media for the 94 and 97 incidents. The second one supports a statement that one commentator feels Schumacher's achievements are unfairly downplayed in the British media not because of 94 and 97, which are not mentioned, but because he is not English.
:*attempts to vilify sounds like a smear campaign - and does not appear in either article.
Based on the references we currently have, I suggest the current sentence should be replaced with: Schumacher has been vilified in the British media for his involvement in title-deciding collisions in 1994 and 1997. Vinesh Nair, Formula One correspondant for Sify.com, has suggested that Schumacher's later achievements have been downplayed by the British media because he is not British
:*I think 'sections of the British media' would be more accurate, but that's not what the current ref says.
:*Vinesh is talking about 'English' not 'British', but I think he actually means British. I haven't noticed any downplaying of the achievements of Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, David Coulthard etc because they are not English :)
I have changed the article as suggested --4u1e 08:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies and Criticisms 

message: Quoting from the article:
Benetton was not fully competitive in , with the more advanced and powerful Williams of Hill and Prost or the advanced "TAG" electronic package found in the McLaren of Senna.
If someone can specify this TAG wikilink as it links to a disambiguation page, it'd be good.--Serte * Talk * Contribs 14:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done - it now links to Techniques d'Avant Garde. Bretonbanquet 14:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TAG? 

message: I've been bold and deleted the helmet section, as I said above, it's the weakest candidate. We're still up at 79kb (which is around 56kb text, according to Serte above), so I think we need to get a bit more radical. I previously suggested 1998 British Grand Prix (Controversies....) - I don't think this is all that controversial, as regards Schumacher himself, and could therefore be deleted. What do others think?
:Well, I'd say 56kb if you take the results table out. If you don't count the references, which aren't readable prose, it'd be even smaller, because this article has more than 70. I agree with the helmet thing, I don't really know what more to reduce, so we have to make choices. Your suggestion for the controversy is good, I wouldn't like to, but maybe we have to do it. I'd also try to remove redundancies in the text, making the text more simple and smaller. Cheers--Serte * Talk * Contribs 16:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made an astonishing discovery. I opened a txt file with Notepad and copied all the code for the page in there. It was 80kb. Just as it says when you edit the article. Then, I opened the article just for reading and copied to notepad only the text parts, and even left all those [1] of the references there. Just didn't copy the table and the references, external links and such. I even copied the Formula One records. I save the file, go check the proprieties and... only 32,4 KB. That's amazing and we have to use it as an argument when FAC comes, because it's not our fault that the table occupies so much and we aren't going to delete references for the sake of space... Cheers--Serte * Talk * Contribs 16:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: From WP:SIZE "Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 6,000 to 10,000 words, which roughly corresponds to 30 to 50 KB of readable prose. Thus the 32 KB recommendation is considered to have stylistic value in many cases;" "Specifically, for stylistic purposes, readable prose excludes: external links, further reading, references, footnotes, see also, and similar sections; tables, list-like sections, and similar content; and markup, interwiki links, URLs and similar formatting."
Readable prose should be 32 kb. If you take out of this article the tables (complete results), the see also, external links, the footnotes and references, you get those 32kb. Let's do fact check on what's needed and apply for FA. This is a very argument and it is going to be an issued raised on FAC.--Serte * Talk * Contribs 14:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: In that case we're OK for length, aren't we? I'd still suggest going through GA before FA - the waiting list looks quite short at the moment, and I've found it valuable before in terms of getting more views. 4u1e
When do we do it, then?--Serte * Talk * Contribs 16:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Weather (spelling?) you like it or not, those controversial incidents are a big part of Schumacher's career and fairly or not, he'll be remembered for them too, not only for the 7 titles or all the records.--Serte * Talk * Contribs 21:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shorter Article

message: Is that part that in 2006 Monaco Grand Prix, Schumacher started at the back of the grid, but ended up finishing 5th relevant for sportsmanship?
:The one reason that springs to mind is for the reader's interest and convenience, because I'm sure they'll ask how Schumacher did in the Grand Prix and will not want to scroll up/down to see how he did when it can be in the next sentance, although I do understand where your coming from with the question.--Skully Collins 12:50, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sportsmanship 

message: The sentance reads that he's won nearly all the Grand Prixs he's started in, yes I know and agree with because of the Turkish GP. But, unless I'm mistaken, you reverted a correct statement that he didn't win the South African GP, and he's started that race twice! See 1992 South African Grand Prix and 1993 South African Grand Prix, so it is indeed, correct.--Skully Collins 12:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The actual sentence has a caveat in it that you seem to be missing, which i already told you to pay attention to.Ernham 18:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  South African GP 

message: Don't know if anyone's aiming for Good Article or Featured Article ststus for this page, but if so you'll need to lose the trivia section, which is normally viewed as being 'un-encyclopaedic' by reviewers. Most of it could either be incorporated into the text or lost. The very first bullet would make an excellent way of addressing the 'greatest' issue by the way. Instead of trying to state that he is the greatest (unverifiable!) why not state in the lead that he was voted as such in a BBC poll, which is a verifiable statement? Just some suggestions, anyway.
:: I've seen numerous articles that have been featured around here with trivia sections. I think some of the things are interesting, yet they don't really have a place elsewhere IMO. You'd have to stuff 90% of it into the intro paragraphs.Ernham 18:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia section

message: All those cites are supposed to go to the official formula one website biography, instead the link back and forth between the refrence section and the spot they are cited. The actual source is missing, basically, but the linking works. http://www.formula1.com/archive/halloffame/driver/7.html that's the source.Ernham 20:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed Mark83 20:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks.Ernham 20:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the deal with reference section "a b c d e f" 

message: This one:
"Schumacher currently holds almost every record in Formula One, including those for most drivers' championships, race victories, fastest laps, pole positions, and most races won in a single season. He is the first Formula One driver to win at every track he has started on at least once, starting from his first world championship title year(excluding the recently introduced Turkish GP). He is the world's first billionaire athlete, with an estimated yearly salary over 100 million dollars, tens of millions of which he donates to humanitarian causes.[1]" 
Particularly the first two-thirds of it. Instead, adding "see below link" after the "holds almost every record" comment. i think it's excessive, given we have a whole section devoted to summarizing many of those records. No need to dwell on it. Then add some more stuff to the intro found in the trivia section perhaps. Just discussing it now, I don't hvae time to do muhc at the moment. Thoughts? Ernham 20:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree - I think the fact that he holds the Championships, wins and poles records is very significant and deserves to be mentioned in the intro. These are probably the three major records in F1. I agree that the "most victories in a season" and "win at every track he has started on at least once" should be removed as they are 'lower-level' records and you could easily substitute them for several others that he holds. Most fastest laps could be kept, but it just makes the sentence longer. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 20:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me. That's probably what I started with in the first version of this lead, but it's one of those sections people like to add to! 4u1e 13:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: possibly gutting the second intro paragraph

message: After the end of the championship, I believe we should review and work a lot on this article and try to make it a FA. We have the example of Damon Hill, who's also a (former) Formula 1 driver and it's a FA now. I have some ideas.
# - The article is too long, almost 100 kb now. We have to reduce some parts, for example the 2006 season.
# - The most recent seasons, specially the 2006 are too large when compared to others. That needs to be reduced and all seasons should have more or less the same space.
# - search for more and more references
# - find old images we can use, such as the cars he drove in the 90's and pictures of him from those times and younger.
# - Get the Attributes section better: finding references and re-writing it, maybe.
# - find a reference for the BBC poll referred at the Trivia section. It may be useful to stop the controversy in the lead about him being the greatest or the best.
# - although the Retirement section is cool, it is big, so maybe reducing it, or creating another article for it and just leave a few people responses wouldn't be bad.
Add more ideas, discuss these and let's prepare to work? --Serte 12:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with all of what Serte says above. Can I also suggest that you step up gradually. With Damon Hill we found it useful to go through Good Article and Peer Review first to get a good number of views. 4u1e 12:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the WP:GA process takes a while, why not nominate it now? (After reading the criteria first, of course!) 4u1e 13:01, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a feeling that if Michael wins the championship (looking very likely at the moment), this article will get hit massively for a couple of weeks after the end of the season. Some improvements can be made now, but I think we should wait until about a month or two after the end of the season to nominate it for FA - one of the criteria is that the article is stable. An attempt at GA would be fine for now though IMO. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 13:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I believe also we should wait until the end of the championship, as I said above. Let's check the GA criteria list.--Serte 13:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The season ended today, so, I guess today is a new beginning for this article and we should all work together and try to get this article an FA. I really think it won't be much work, I think that my ideas above are the main things to do and then only a few minor touch-ups would be needed, I guess.--Serte 19:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest also that the trivia section should go (which will help with the excessive length) and that a lot of work on NPOV will be needed. Still up for trying GA first? --4u1e 23:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, why not. And Peer review at the same time to help?--Serte 13:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be inclined to keep them seperate - take it slow and aim to get the article to FA by January time, which should be well after all the casual editors lose interest in the topic. On the other hand, I don't think it would do any harm to Peer Review it now, so if you want to list it at WP:PR, go ahead. I'll have a stab at a dummy GA assessment later today to give us a feel for where we stand on that. Cheers. 4u1e 23 October 2006
In Peer Review! See Wikipedia:Peer review/Michael Schumacher/archive2--Serte 14:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Going for [[Image:Cscr-featured.svg|20px]][[Wikipedia:Featured articles|FA]] 

message: I guess I need the following explaining to me, because I think it contradicts itself, and I think it needs deleting:
He is the first Formula One driver to win at every track he has started on at least once, starting from his first world championship title year (excluding the recently introduced Turkish GP).
He hasn't won the Turkish GP, and thus hasn't won every track he's started on.
Apathetic 07:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was won all, EXCEPT X. It's a common thing to say, you may see it as a contradiction and technically it is, but people use it on everyday situations and I don't really tink it's a problem. --Serte 23:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it rather a convoluted record though? He's won on every track except Turkey and Kyalami, Mexico City, and Donington (latter 3 all pre 1994)? Also it seems odd to set the time period to 1994 - 2006 (i.e. since his first championship), but include Estoril, where he hasn't won since 1993, outside the period in question. For my money it's there are too many caveats on this for it to be valid - what do others think? 195.137.77.175 07:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops - that was me, got logged out and didn't notice. 4u1e 07:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It definitely needs to be reworded.  It's fine to emphasise how many tracks he's won races on, but I think "the first driver to..." has to go, because you could use the "except XYZ" to include anyone else you wanted in the record. Apathetic 07:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I've also checked out out Fangio's record - one could say of him that he " won on every race track he started, except Pescara (only ever used once) and Aintree (where two of the British GPs during Fangio's career were held)". Very similar, but even less caveated, so one really cannot say that Schumacher was the first to achieve a similar feat. I suspect Alberto Ascari must have a achieved something similar as well, he went on a great winning streak in 1952-53. Cheers. --4u1e 22:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkey

message: I've been working here and there, giving sugestions on this article to make it FA, checking it, but I don't know what happened. Is is just me, or the 2006 section isn't NPOV at all right now? And why delete valid references just as those for the formula1.com when you can leave it there? I don't know what happened but this is definately not a step forward no Featured Article status...--Serte 18:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to mention it (the 2006 section) is way too long. SubSeven 19:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: I'm going to try to significantly trim this down to a approximately 4-5, maybe a little more on races that had controversial events, sentences per race, as opposed to the current, which ranges from 4-5 to 50+ sentences. Heh. If you don't like that I gutted/changed something, post exactly what was removed and why you think it deserves to be incorporated in the article. The section should be written in relation to schumacher. Outstanding, good or bad, events should be noted if they directly relate to Schumacher, but not overly dwelt on. So post exactly what was removed and your arguments for why it should be included, keeping in mind space is at a premium.Ernham 21:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think I'm going to hold off until the GP is over, as the results could significantly impact the summary-type statements of the entire season.Ernham 21:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trimming down the 2006 section