Talk:Judean date palm

message: Not a species. Not a Lazarus taxon. A reference might halp sort out what's actually happening here. --Wetman 05:01, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with these concerns; what species etc. are we looking at, and how do they think this seed differs from modern varieties?  Fascinating article!  --Dvyost 13:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Not a species

message: Did anyone read any sources other than the researcher who germinated this ancient palm tree?
I've been combing the literature, and as far as I can tell, this lady is the only person in the history of science who has ever imagined that there's any such thing as a "Judean" cultivar. If you read the ancient sources, and I have added real live actual reliable sources to the article now, it's clear that in ancient times, MANY different varieties of date were cultivated. This thing about the Romans wiping out the dates is a COMPLETE FICTION. IT NEVER HAPPENED. The Romans happily kept growing dates all the way up until they lost control of the area. The decline in date growing really slowly ramped up in the early 2nd millennium CE, and was probably due to a combination of climate change and the devastation of the Crusades (see the Goor reference in the main article.) Tarchon (talk) 07:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is baloney 

message: "The oldest tree seed that's ever been sprouted." Ehm, I seem to remember that researchers have grown seeds found in Arctic/Antarctic ice. Those seeds were at least 50 thousand years old or so... (Some of those seeds grew to big coniferous trees typical for the far north and some to very nice flowers by the way.) But for a non-frozen seed 2000 years might be some kind of record. Sorry to spoil the fun... But yeah, it is impressive that a living cell can hibernate for thousands of years and then grow into a tree. 
--David Göthberg 14:24, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  2000 years is it the oldest tree? 

message: I'm not a botany expert, but if the Judean date palm is a true cultivar, that means it was propagated exclusively by cuttings by the original farmers, like apple or grape varieties. Would this mean that the seedling currently being grown won't mature into a true Judean date palm? Unless I'm mistaken, a seed from a Granny Smith apple won't grow into a true Granny Smith apple tree, maybe a similar situation would occur here. It'll be a date palm obviously, but with different characteristics from the parent tree. --Bk0 00:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Seedling might not be a real Judean date palm?''' 

message: I was wondering if there were any updates about this plant. Is it still growing? I haven't heard anything from it since 2005. Gary 18:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''update?''' 

message: "It is not a true-to-type, in other words it not a product of an offshoot, or tissue culture (clones) rather it's, an offspring from a seedling, heterozygosity exists, It's the product of the mother (fruit bear), & the male (Make pollen which fertilizes the flower to produce fruit), an offshoot would be a true-to-type."
Please translate this into English, if someone understands the language used...
Want a translation: [It's simple] an offshoot is the tree which grows from root it is Identical to the parent tree, thus like a "clone', called “a true-to-type". A seedling (plant the comes from a seed) it not identical it come from two parents, 
A male tree pollinates 
&
A female which produce fruit quality, & can make fruit.
thus in the word heterozygosity exist, [A measure of the genetic variation in a population].
Not really givverish rather big science words, I don't know how to explain it in simpler terms.
Why this tree is not true-to-type, better translation...
As mentioned, an offshoot, like a clipping, is produced by a process known as "vegetative propagation" and is a clone of the older plant. For example, many hanging house plants do this naturally and you can see the offshoot sprouting roots. If you clip one of those offshoots you will get a new plant that is genetically identical to the original "mother" plant. Which is really not a "mother" plant, but a much older identical twin sister plant.
So 2000 years ago, a date farmer would cut an offshoot from an existing tree and plant it. Thereby growing a new tree that is genetically identical to the "mother" tree. And since it is the tree that produces the fruit, the fruit will be the same as if it came from the mother tree. Delicious.
But, the genetic material in the seed that is inside the date fruit is different. The genetic material of the seed is a product of sexual reproduction via pollination where half of the genetic material comes from the mother tree and half comes from the father tree.
The date fruit is made by only the mother tree. Whereas, the date seed that is inside the fruit is half mom, half dad.
Now here is where things get sticky... True, both mom and dad are Judean date palms. And you would think therefore that the seed they produce is 100% Judean date palm. Wrong.
Let's say the special Judean flavor gene is a dominant gene (like brown eyes).  And into this particular seed, mom contributes a bitter gene which is recessive (like blue eyes), and dad also contributes the same recessive bitter gene. Then the seed inside that Judean flavored date will grow into a tree that produces bitter dates. (the same way two brown eyed parents can make a blue eyed child)
The point being, with "vegetative propagation" (like a cutting) the result is true-to-type and you known exactly what the resulting fruit will be.  With pollination, you simply don't know what that tree will grow up to produce.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.217.164.134 (talk) 22:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gibberish to me (I don't understand)

message: The Qur’an, in Chapter 6 (“Mary”), describes how Jesus was born under a date palm, and how the tree dropped fresh ripe dates in Mary’s lap for her to eat—and I knew, from my many visits to Yemen, that villagers believe a steady diet of dates helps a nursing mother produce abundant milk.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.211.144 (talk) 04:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Menetioned in the Qu'ran 

message: It links to a palm tree in the white mountains of california, 5000 years old but a different plant  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.68.25 (talk) 16:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  wrong link for methusala? 

message: Was it really necessary to bust out the radiometric dating (which I still don't understand how it's calibrated, hasn't the carbon in the seed been recycled many times?) for something found in Herod's palace? Everyone knows when Herod lived.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 04:58, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dating 

message: It looks like we're still waiting for someone to answer the question. Was the Judean date palm destroyed as a form of ecological warfare by the Romans or some other group -- as, say, the forces of the United States sought to exterminate the Bison (American Buffalo) as part of its war of genocide against Native-Americans in the 19th century? Did the palms require artificial irrigation or propagation that was neglected for some reason as the Roman empire declined? Were the palms the victim of climate change as the Middle East became hotter and drier than it has been during the last Ice Age? 
I am not looking to direct the answer in any direction, and I hope someone who knows more about this than I do can provide an update on the research in this area. (71.22.47.232 (talk) 09:11, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  So, why did the Judean date palm become extinct? 

message: Apparently, Methuselah is male (according to one blog I read online—the best source I could find).  The Jade Knight (talk) 00:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: * -- URIEL (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL:): (DNA similar to related modern Moroccan variety Mahalbit)
* -- JONAH (MATERNAL: PATERNAL:): (DNA similar to modern Moroccan variety Medjool)
* -- BOAZ (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL:): (DNA similar to modern Moroccan variety: Jihel)
* -- JUDITH (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: ...): (DNA similar to related to Iraqi varieties Khyara)
* -- HANNAH (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: ...): (modern Iraqi varieties Khastawi and Ami Hajj)
* -- ADAM (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: Western): (DNA similar to assigned to current Arabian Gulf varieties Fardh4 & Khalass)
* -- METHUSELAH (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: Eastern): (DNA similar to assigned to current Arabian Gulf varieties FARD d and Fardh4)
* -- 6/7 Have an Eastern Maternal ancestry. The deviant is Jonah.
* -- 4/5 of the male plants have Western paternal ancestry. The deviant is Methuselah.
* -- Source: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aax0384
Lunchtime-Lucas (talk) 10:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Updates''' 

message: The topic keeps on being discussed, and nobody put it to rest, see above:
* Not a species:
* Seedling might not be a real Judean date palm?
* update?
* Gibberish to me (I don't understand)
Now the article says that "By 2015 Methuselah had produced pollen that has been used successfully to pollinate female date palms. Additional Judean date palm seeds have been grown. Several are female, so it is hoped that it will soon be possible to pollinate a female Judean date palm with the pollen of a male of the same variety."
Without being a specialist, I am highly skeptical about this claim. If the pollinated female palms were of a different species, as they must have been, how come the resulting "babies" are clean "Judean date palms"? The mother plant contributed no DNA whatsoever? This added to the better questions from previous editors here: the specific variety of a date fruit seems to depend on offshoots, not seeds. From this I understand that the variety of the fruit is the result of grafting, not sprouting and planting of seeds, which "don't produce the same [variety] as the parent tree". Correct?
This article, for now, only correctly deals with the amazing sprouting of a 2000 years old seed. All the other talk about it being the same as the ancient cultivar, with a special symbolism etc., is hot air. Useless.
Additional question: it seems that the botanists are trying to get more seeds from the Masada batch to sprout. If there is a successful attempt that leads to a female palm tree, if the flowers of an original female plant is pollinated with an also original male plant flower, would the resulting fruit be identical to the ancient variety?
Who picks up the challenge? Cheers, Arminden (talk) 08:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Arminden, The way that section was written is slightly ambiguous. What was meant to be said, by whoever wrote it, was that: 1) Methuselah's pollen was successfully used to pollinate a wild modern female palm; 2) some other ancient Judean Date Palm seeds have been successfully germinated (similar to how Methuselah was), and some of these are females. The females in the second point are not connected with the females in the first point (they aren't the "babies"), but rather were ancient seeds like Methuselah. — al-Shimoni (talk) 14:09, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useless article unless clarified: what variety would a resulting date palm & fruit be, in the end?