Talk:Syracuse/Archive 2

message: I've removed the listing from WP:RM since the survey is "closed."  My take is that there really isn't consensus here, and the business about moving being the default really only applies when the debates get very little attention.  Here, there were plenty of people on both sides.  Hence, no consensus, and things stay how they are.  Mangojuicetalk 16:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank god, now to move on to more important things!--Niro5 17:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Closing

message: I'm just curious - why does Troy take us to the historical Troy directly, and yet Troy (disambiguation) show dozens of Troys, including many in the USA.  I need to ask why Syracuse has been singled out in this instance.  My clasical history is a bit sketchy, but didn't Troy cease to exist two and a half milennia ago?  Yet Syracuse, the largest Greek-speaking city in antiquity, birthplace and home to Archimedes, for a short period the capital of the Byzantine Empire, existing continuously for 2,800 years, doesn't get a guernsey.  I am simply struggling to make sense of it all.  Once again, is it one rule for some and not for others - some being more equal than others?  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite simple... There's no Troy with such modern significance. I know you're probably not a big fan of it, but try Google, and you'll almost exclusively get ancient Troy. -newkai | talk | contribs 06:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I don't buy it.  I think the explanation is as follows:  Americans may have heard of ancient Troy, but they mostly don't know about the original Syracuse - that's pretty much it.  Relying on Google is a reinforcement of that simple fact.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 09:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: To be honest, very little of what you had to say then made any sense.  It really isn't about ego, because you probably know by now I have plenty on my plate.  Anytime I see a certain type of Western hegemony trying to manifest itself on Wikipedia, I try to stand up to it.  But I do it through commentary, I rarely take overt action.  I do know I am on a hiding to nothing - but by the same token, I feel I need to point out that to my eyes this is entirely an American perspective, and it seems to have been done even though the vote did not go that way.  I can't help thinking all this has been contrary to at least two key Wikipedia policies, but I understood a while ago that these policies are mainly applied to reinforce Western hegemony.   ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 13:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your perceptions are a bit off.  If there was a "Western hegemony" here, "Syracuse" would redirect to "Syracuse, New York" instead of being a disambiguation page.  Or "Syracuse, New York" would be listed first on said disambiguation page.  You'll note that neither is true.  Instead, you say that "Syracuse" could only reasonably refer to the original, in Sicily?  You've provided no evidence that the Sicilian Syracuse is overwhelmingly likely to be the one a particular reader wants; in fact, all of the evidence presented indicates that there is a significant likelyhood that the New York Syracuse is the one being searched for.  (Note: Not that it's the most likely choice, just that it's a significantly likely choice.)  In the face of that, we have little choice under WP guidelines but to use a disambiguation page.  None of the counterexamples you've attempted to use involve a city as prominent as Syracuse, New York.  If there's any bias here, it's hardly fair to place it at the feet of those arguing for equal treatment of the two cities, is there?  Powers 02:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact remains that the survey ended up at 15 to 8 in favour of Syracuse linking directly to the original Syracuse.  If I were to put this question up on the Wikipedia mailing list, I wonder what the response would be.  If the response on there was split 50/50, I would gladly accept that I am flogging a dead horse. The treatment for Syracuse still seems to me to be at odds with the treatment of Troy.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it's at odds; they are different situations.  Troy, New York is not well known outside of Central New York State; Syracuse, New York is.  Powers 21:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Touché!  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 21:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LtPowers is very correct.  Having lived in several Asian countries, I can tell you that their knowledge of ancient European history is about as complete as your knowledge of their ancient history.  But don't forget the throngs of South and East Asians who attend Syracuse University and other American universities, they have certainly heard of Syracuse, NY.  (maybe this explains the preponderance of Google hits for S,NY?)  Suddenly, the Europeans are sounding biased.  Not to mention that the loudest one here is a bureaucrat for the Sicilian wikipedia.  Now, the reason I haven't mentioned these is because we all have our biases.  I'm not attacking anyone, or calling anyone maliciously biased, but let's not have the pot call the kettle black.  We all have out biases, which is why we use objective facts.  S,NY has their objective facts, S,IT has some too (though certainly not as thorough).  S,NY may be offering a lot of "overwhelmingly American perceptions" but I have heard nothing but overwhelmingly European perceptions given in reply, e.g. "well I've never heard of Syracuse, NY".  Ridiculous.  Can't we all just get along!?--Niro5 14:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Neither Srnec or I have said that we have never heard of Syracuse, NY or that we are unaware that there is a world class uni there.  The original Syracuse has existed for 2,800 years, at one stage was the largest Greek speaking city in antiquity, was at the centre of the Punic Wars, was the birthplace of Archimedes, was the imperial capital of the Byzantine empire for a short period, continues to be home to a heap of historical treasures, continues to exist as a smallish city where it has always existed, described by Cicero as "the greatest Greek city and the most beautiful of them all", the ancient core of Syracuse is part of the UNESCO World Heritage List, and it is the origin of the name for the city in New York.  On top of that, we all know that American cities are commonly identified with the name of the state, whereas the moniker "Syracuse, Italy" is a combination that you are only going to see here in Wikipedia.  Using the official Italian name, Siracusa, may have been a solution, but the English form of the name has existed for centuries, certainly far longer than the American name.  So I think someone is gilding the lily when they suggest that this is a case of being decided by objective facts, it's anything but.  Lastly, it seems entirely at odds with the treatment of Troy, a city that ceased to exist over 3,000 years ago.  As FrancisTyers has intimated, wikipedia is being swayed by the knowledge that the average American possesses of the world, but, shouldn't we be swayed by the scolastic standards of a top shelf encyclopedia?   ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 00:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Troy]]

message: Why are Syracuse, Kansas, Syracuse, Missouri, Syracuse, Nebraska, and Syracuse, Utah defined in the current disambiguation article as specifically not cities.  They are all chartered as cities, and thus have the same legal standing as the city in New York.  They are obviously small, but there is no definition I'm aware of that says something has to be big to be a city. john k 18:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point... Now how should be address this...? -newkai | talk | contribs 09:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  cities vs. municipalities 

message: Some may not like the fact that I have made the claim of Anglo-American focus.  I remain convinced that if Syracuse was a little hamlet in England, this discussion would not be happening, or if the tables were turned the American city would have been recognised without a moment's discussion.  The problem here is that we are dealing with a city in Sicily, and everyone's initial reaction, conscious or otherwise, is to seriously doubt that anything worthwhile has ever come out of Sicily.  Now you might refute that claim, but I come across this in Wikipedia all the time - I have to work much harder to write an article about Sicily or Sicilian history than if I were writing an article about, say, North European history.  So people will doubt that Normans have ever set foot in Sicily, or that large scale Lombard immigration to Sicily occurred during the middle ages, or that Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor was raised in Sicily and lived most of his life in Sicily, or that there was ever a Sicilian School of poetry, or that the Sicilian Parliament goes back to the middle ages, or that the Isle of Man's Triskelion is most probably influenced by the much older Sicilian Trinacria (surely it must descend from a Celtic or a Nordic symbol! I've even seen the theory that the Sicilian one in fact comes from the Isle of Man via either Vikings or Normans), or that the Sicilian language has ever been used officially and/or as a written language (afterall, it is just a dialect of Italian), etc.   There is definitely an inherent bias against Sicily, and I see this discussion as a manifestation of the same malaise.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Disambiguation pages are not examples of Anglo-American focus. They are an example of an attempt to create a world perspective. -newkai | talk | contribs 02:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: unless you are a hamlet in England.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey man, don't bring the English or any other european English speakers into this. We were arguing for the move! - FrancisTyers · 13:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Surprising, as Wikipedia supposedly has an Anglo-American bias. -newkai | talk | contribs 09:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You will have to forgive me, but I don't quite understand the point of your last post - isn't that actually consistent with an Anglo-American bias.   The little hamlets get to go to use their own name unadulterated, but Syracuse can't.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑
A) your officially crazy and B) your starting to annoy people. Go edit some Sicillian articles if you have this much time on your hands. --Muska1135 10:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow, this is degenerating.  Can anyone really deny that the English wikipedia tends to have an Anglophone bias?  I don't think this is purposeful, just a function of the fact that there's a lot more people from the UK, Ireland, Canada, the US, and Australia than there are from anywhere else. However, neither Worcester nor Durham can be properly described as a "little hamlet." john k 11:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct that I have exaggerated in using the term "little hamlet", but I am only starting to realise that this is much bigger than the half a dozen examples you yourself supplied, for instance:  Sodbury.  My firm belief is that we may be looking at hundreds of such examples - so it makes me wonder again, why Syracuse would be treated differently.  And I have to conclude that at best it is a case of Anglo-American focus - something that we are all guilty of, I include myself in that as a native speaker of English, no one should really take offence at that - but at worst, as I have intimated above, it could well signal something slightly more unsavoury.  Describing me as crazy doesn't change the issue I am raising - and in any event, if people must know, I already spend most of my time on scn.wiki. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't need a job - I have dedicated the rest of my life to making this world a better place.  Just as Marx taught us, there is more to the World than meets the eye, and you might be able to lead a horse to the well, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he'll fall in. There is even space in my heart you Mr Grumpy. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Almost - I've left a note on the Village Pump to canvass some wider views - as someone pointed out, it may even have been you, the 15-8 vote was simply not broad enough and did not reflect the silent majority out there who have no intention of ever stumbling across anything remotely related to Sicily, wittingly or otherwise.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 13:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Can I archive part of this discussion?  It's getting pretty long. AdamBiswanger1 13:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, you guys have to really stop generalizing... Take a look at the oppose list and check the geos... There's a Scandinavian, a Sicilian, and I've only checked the first half... -newkai | talk | contribs 16:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm willing to wager that the support side have a significantly broader range of national backgrounds than the oppose side. Besides, User:Cultural Freedom just says they live in Scandinavia, not that they are Scandinavian. They may well be an USian ex-pat. - FrancisTyers · 23:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I return from a restful sleep.  Masses of support has not eventuated, the cavalry has not arrived, the League of Nations has not wished to get involved, there are no text messages from Kofi Annan nor Nelson Mandela.  I have run my race, I have fought the good fight, I have explored every avenue, I have searched far and wide, and it would appear that apart from a handful of enlightened souls - I am all alone in this world.  I will now step back, have a cup of strong coffee and think about what I will do with my life - perhaps I'll go and get a job.  Either way, I will always be ready to stand up for truth, justice and the silicon way!  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There's a generic American bias that leads to disambiguation pages at article for cities that exist in both the US and outside it.  There is a countervailing English bias that leads to a lot of English cities not getting this treatment.  Thus, Worcester and Durham, despite neither of those being (by a considerable margin) the largest city of that name.  Basically, Americans try to make all City articles to be disambiguation pages if there's an American city of that name. English users often prevent this from happening if the orginal City in question is an English one.  This does not happen, however, with an Italian city like Siracusa. john k 18:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And continental Europeans are just perfect and unbiased in every way! :) -newkai | talk | contribs 18:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I suspect if anyone cared enough to object, Worcester and Durham would be made dab pages.  If I may be so bold, I think most Americans just aren't as emotionally attached to, rooted in, or proud of, the places they live in as most Europeans are.  Personally, I'm not too fond of Georgia, my current state of residence, but I take up the position that the dab page ought to remain because it would offend my sense of right and wrong to see a positive action taken (making the country the primary article) that is contrary to the rules, solely to satisfy someone's wounded nationalist pride. --dreish~talk 21:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglo-American Focus 

message: I would like to seek support to move Syracuse, Italy to a more appropriate title.  Apart from the arguments that have been done to death above (which I believe engendered a wider spectrum of support), there is the fact that in the Sicily project there are two or three precedents where we use <Name of town, Sicily> and/or <Name of town, (provincial short name)>.  One example I can think of is Nicosia, Sicily which redirects to Nicosia (EN), to disambiguate from Nicosia, the capital of Cyprus.  I propose having both Syracuse, Italy and Syracuse, Sicily redirecting to Syracuse (SR).  This is the standard method of disambiguating in both it.wiki and scn.wiki, and we have started taking it up in the Sicily project, and it is pretty much the Italian equivalent of Syracuse, New York.  Another example is Augusta (SR) which happens to be in the same proviince.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support this, Syracuse, Italy is historically inaccurate. - FrancisTyers · 14:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would oppose this.  The only relevant information in naming conventions of cities is their current location and relationship to a country.  Would you support calling Aachen, which was the capital of the Holy Roman Empire  "Aachen, Holy Roman Empire"?  Perhaps "Milan, Kingdom of Sardinia"? No, because naming a city after anything but the country in which it is located is absurd.  If you wish to note that Syracuse, Italy was at one point not affiliated with Italy, do so in the history section, but certainly not the title.  If you wish to tell me that Syracuse is not part of the nation of Italy, I will most happily support. AdamBiswanger1 15:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: On second thought, I misunderstood the proposal to mean a move to simply "Syracuse". AdamBiswanger1 15:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I support moving Syracuse, Italy to a name more acceptable to the Sicily project editors (that also disambiguates appropriately). But I'm not so sure about using the province abbreviation. An important principle in the general naming conventions is to "avoid abbreviations".  I suspect that few people outside of Italy (or the EU) would readily recognize SR as meaning Sicily. older ≠ wiser 16:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I concur.  I'd much prefer Syracuse, Sicily.  I'd also add that Syracuse (SR) seems like a bit of a strange mix of things to me - the Italian version would be Siracusa (SR).  If we are going to call it by the anglicized name, we shouldn't use the Italian abbreviation. john k 18:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I imagine there are other Sicilian cities that follow that mold "____, Italy".  Just thought I'd put that out there so that we can ensure uniformity. AdamBiswanger1 16:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you find some examples? john k 18:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following two aren't Sicilian, but they have the same format as the old-school Syracuse: Monti, Italy and Pila, Italy... Probably a bunch more, but it's time for my second-favorite hobby after Wikipedia... Viennese Nightlife! Cheers! -newkai | talk | contribs 18:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A glance at Monti suggests that it should not be a disambiguation page.  A glance at Pila suggests that Pila, Italy should be at Pila (AO), or some such, since there's another Pila in Italy. john k 21:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I really really don't like the idea of using an Italian abbreviation with an anglicized name.  The abbreviation standard is, as pointed out by someone above, intended to disambiguate when there are two Italian cities with the same name.  The city manifestly does not need to be disambiguated from other Italian cities with the same name, and the mixing and matching of languages is awkward.  Personally, I would suggest that we get rid of the "disambiguate by province abbreviation" rule, entirely, and substitute for it one where we disambiguate by region.  If two communes have the same name in different provinces of the same region, then we can use the province abbreviation form. At any rate, Syracuse, Sicily seems like the course of action which is the most sensible and to which the least opposition has been expressed.  (Has anybody expressed a particular dislike to this version?).  Every other form has been opposed by someone or other. john k 02:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that this conversation bothers me, but shouldn't we move this conversation to the "Syracuse, Italy" talk page, just to make it easier for anyone wanting to review the subject in the future? AdamBiswanger1 02:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ok - I've copied everything bewteen the introductory para and your suggestion - I hope that is all right with everyone.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 08:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support to move Syracuse, Italy