Talk:Use of child suicide bombers by Palestinian militant groups

message: Proposed changes:
* Please add citation needed to the end of the second paragraph and the third paragraph as there is no sources.
* "On July 3, the Israeli Security Forces thwarted a suicide bombing that it claimed was to have been carried out by 16-year-old Muataz Takhsin Karini. ..." Add 2004 which is from source [12]. "On July 3rd 2004, ..."
* "On November 1, 16-year-old Aamer Alfar..." Please change to say "On November 1st 2004, ..." Add new source for this https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-11/02/content_387710.htm
* "On November 4, a 15-year-old suicide bomber was arrested in Nablus. ..." I can't find any source for this. I recommend removal.
* "On April 12, a 15-year-old Palestinian boy identified as Hassan Hashash..." Source [21] shows 2005. Please change as previous.
* "On April 27, two teenagers, aged 15 (though other sources cite their ages as 12 and 13),..." Please change to say "On April 27th 2005, two teenagers aged 12 and 13,..." Recommend changing the ages to 12 and 13 as stated in the source. I can't see where the author got aged 15 from. 
* "On May 22, Iad Ladi, a 14- or 15-year-old Palestinian suicide bomber was arrested at a Huwara checkpoint near Nablus. This was the 14th time during April and May that a Palestinian child was arrested as a bomber or a courier. Two days later, another 15-year-old Palestinian teen carrying two pipe bombs, was caught at the same checkpoint. On June 15, The Israeli press reported that the Shabak arrested a Palestinian militant cell in Nablus during the previous month. The cell included eight members, four of whom were child suicide bombers. The cell was on the verge of committing another suicide bombing attack using the four children. According to the Shin Bet, the cell was directed and funded by the Fatah's Tanzim branch and the Lebanese group Hezbollah.[23]" Please change to say: "On May 22nd 2005 a terror cell was apprehended consisting of four recruiters and four 15-16 year old Palestinian boys that were intended to serve as suicide bombers in planned attacks. Israeli authorities reported that the terror cell was directed from Lebanon by Hezbollah.[23]" The text here does not match the cited source. My rewriting matches the source.
* "On October 11, a 14-year-old Palestinian boy was arrested by IDF forces. ..." Please change date to October 11th 2005. The other wording seems accurate.
* "On August 27, a 15-year-old Palestinian boy carrying two explosive devices on his body was arrested in the northern Gaza Strip after he attempted to carry out an attack against soldiers operating in the area against Palestinians launching Qassam rockets on Israeli civilians across the border inside Israel." This part needs rewording. Suggested: "On August 30th 2007 a 15-year-old Palestinian boy carrying two explosive devices on his body was arrested in the northern Gaza Strip after he attempted to carry out an attack against IDF soldiers operating in the area."
*(Not for extended protection edit) Recommend updating the article with any news from 2007 onwards. Or any source which discusses if the article's focus is still ongoing or not.
Jclaxp talk 14:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. Run n Fly (talk) 17:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not meaning this in a bad way but there isn't much to debate here. I've suggested adding the year for consistency. I've been through most of the article to check sources for accuracy. I'm genuinely not sure what consensus would be needed here. I've also seen in the article you've linked that it says: "Consensus isn't needed if a change is not controversial. Uncontroversial changes don't require sourcing, such as correcting typographical errors or disambiguating links. If this is the case, you don't need to establish consensus, but instead propose the change as stated above." Please advise how I can go forward, these proposals were made in good faith. Jclaxp talk 13:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:   can you provide a citation template for this? (using  or similar) Elli (talk | contribs) 04:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: (though, China Daily should generally be avoided, see WP:RSP) Elli (talk | contribs) 04:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Please provide any alternative source other than China Daily since its reliability remains in question per RfC: China Daily Run n Fly (talk) 17:35, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Review of History section

message: plz discuss changes in here before you rv my work. More edits are coming to clean the propaganda from this article.--Thameen 20:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To Moshe

message: Although there are rare cases of the use of minors in the Palestine/Israeli conflict. And I'm against that of course. 
But this article was written in its totality in a zionist propaganda tone to emphasize the zionist myth the Palestinians send their kids to death (and hense no problem the the Israeli ocuupation army killed around 4000 kids in Palestine). 
1. The article was written with a pre-assumed notion that the use of kids by Palestinians is a fact and is wide spead.
2. The article stated what the IDF (the Israeli Army) claimed as a fact. Ignoring the fact that some of the IDF reports are fabrications or exageration as part of it propaganda war against the Palestinians.
3. There is lack of reference in many paragraphs. 
4. The article failed to illustrate the miserable life the kids live due to occupation.
5. The article failed to mention the targetting of kids by the IDF and the hundreds of kids who were killed by the IDF.
::While there is no doubt that there was propoganda used in the original article.  With the way Zionist is being thrown about here, I have to wonder about the neutrality of those editting the article also. cliveklg
Yes, fake news. RoisínDubh20 (talk) 15:02, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Zionist Propaganda

message: I am aware that sending children over minefields was a common tactic used by the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war (and I added that to the article), but I do not recall ever hearing of this tactic being employed by the Iraqi side. Can someone provide a cite or at least vouch for the authenticity of this claim? Perhaps some of this stuff would be best moved to Military use of children, anyway. Everyking 19:58, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc 

message: During the Iraq-Iran War (1980 - 1988), Iran was accused of using children to clear minefields by having them run in front of the soldiers.
:this is a weird piece of info, never heard of this even from the hand line Iraqi opposition. 
--Thameen 14:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq 

message: Hey guys! I have noted and removed the word terrorism several times here, as it carries heavy connotations and undermines NPOV in this case. I am sure that this conversation has happened many times before, and there is an unresolved wiki policy being formulated on the matter.. For here and now, could we use alternate language that conveys the disgusting practices of targeting civilians? Otherwise, I hope that those who use the term are sufficiently clear-minded to define Israeli war crimes against the Palestinian civilian population (e.g., Collective punishment) as terrorism. Tarek 21:38, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I know there is a general problem of using the term "terrorism" because "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" stuff. But if we define terrorism as  a deliberate targeting of civilians (i.e. intensionaly trying to kill civilians) in pursuit of a religious\national\political goal  then there should be no POV problem, such the definition regarding the tactics and not the motives. MathKnight 22:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  By that definition, of course, the state-sanctioned collective punishment (punishing Palestinian families or cities for the militant activity of one member) is also terrorism.. I think we are doing a decent job of describing what's happening while avoiding such a loaded and hijacked term.. Tarek 00:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  No it wouldn't, that would depend on deliberate targeting.  If it was deliberate targetting of civilians... yes, if not, no.  He presented a perfectly NPOV defination, and your reply was clearly not a NPOV.  And I questions your neutrality in any edits or discussion here.Cliveklg 20:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Israeli collective punishment is the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. they are subject to home demolitions. the attitude by the IDF is that destroying these peoples homes will deter them from defending terrorists in their (new) neighbourhoods. It's also against international law. There should be an article for war crimes on both sides of the conflict as no group in this conflict is innocent of crimes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.148.209 (talk) 00:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the word "terrorism" 

message: At the risk of becoming the resident "links pain in the butt" - the links on this page are really poor. Geocities pages, links to a blog, pictures claiming to be kids dressed as suicide bombers that aren't - just poor quality.
I've deleted some - and will try to pick up the rest. I'm not even claiming POV here - they're just crappy links.
I'm not against goecities or blogs per se but I think they need to be treated a lot more carefully than more extablished journalistic (or even pressure group) sites, and those which are not single issue. I'd way rather see a link to the BBC (or better yest Reuters) than to www.geocities.com/StopTheChildmurdering. I hope we all agree on this.
My guess is that will start a storm from the usual suspects - so can we discuss here before starting a "revert war". My line is that I've tried to take out the weakest links <G>  and if they need reinstated then we could try to justify why they are relevant to the atrticle rather than assuming that anything vaguely on topic should be there and justifying it being removed (ie a link earns it place because it's a high quality link - irrespective of POV?) - does this sound reasonable?
62.253.64.15 18:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree that links from reputable news organisations are preferable - I don't personally regard blogs, watchdogs, Indymedia or other secondary news sources as very worthwhile in the context of an article such as this one. The links you have put in are good.illWill 20:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: Sami Hamdan is not a minor. He was 21 years old when he carried his attack. . The IDF made a mistake by identifying him as 17. I'm going to remove this incident.--Thameen 15:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The 2006 Incidents

message: Do you think the article needs clean up? 
I do. I think it looks like an unorganised list in much of its content. I feel we need to organize it. 
The overview is fine. I think this is the part that recieved much atention. 
But the yearly incidents are wrote in a monotone and are thus long and tiring to read. 
What are your suggestions? 
I suggest we make short lists. Like a list for the documented suicide attacks, with name, age, and place and so on. a concise list.
And a list of the anual incidents. But written in a concise manner.--Thameen 16:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleaning Up

message: In some places in the lists, it was mentioned that minors were arrested at check points carring IED or pipe bombs. It is known that the minors were more involved as carriers than as bombers due to the general Palestinian resentment of using minors as bombers. 
We need to define well this issue. when an arrested minor carrying explosives can be defined as a suicide bomber? 
For example in a 2005 incidents the article write 
::On July 6, a Palestinian teenager caught carrying explosives near Baqa al-Sharkiya, two days after another Palestinian 16-year-old was caught with explosives at the Hawara checkpoint
The reference, which is Yidioot ahranoot English Version, reports;
::"..An IDF unit arrested Wednesday evening a 17-year-old Palestinian from the village of Kafin, in the northern West Bank, who was smuggling two improvised explosives and a knife..."
The newspaper does not mention suicide attack. Nor there is any evidence which may make the wiki editor who wrote this think it was a suicide attack. 
how can we handle sections? ideas plz. 
--Thameen 17:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Carriers or bombers

message: I have removed the "Incidents in 2006" section.  (Note, in the interests of full disclosure: Thameen left a note to me on my talk page asking me to look at the article. My decision to remove, however, is based on my own judgement.) The contents of the removed section are below:
On 17 April, 2006, Sami Hammad, a 21-year-old Palestinian carried out suicide attack in Tel Aviv killing 10 and wounding 70 people. There have been unconfirmed reports (and as of April 17, the Israeli Broadcasting Authority has been stating) that Hammad was only sixteen-years-old. 
The link given for reference is a deadlink, and while I find a number of mentions of Sami Hammad online, none of them refer to him as anything other than unambiguously 21 years of age--even googling 'Sami Hammad 16' produces nothing.  Unless someone can find a current source making the claim that he was 16 (the "as of April 17" makes it seem like this might have been a preliminary report based on incomplete information), I believe this section should stay out of the article. --RobthTalkCleanup? 03:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of 2006 incidents section 

message: I've removed the following passage as original research. 
:Palestinian textbooks contain statements such as: PDF
*"Islam views those who have died defending it as the most prominent martyrs (Shuhada), because the Qur'an says: ‘Why should we hesitate to fight if we are driven away from our homes?’"
*"The noble soul has two goals: death and the desire for it."
Cherry picking the worst statements out of the textbooks is original research; presenting them as typical is a lie and so is misrepresenting them by taking them out of context. The second quote is from a poem and is not meant to be taken literally! This is a big fat lie.
:The textbooks openly encourage children to participate in militant activities and contain many references to children who died fighting against Israel. In the presentation of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, the textbooks emphasize that Ramadan is a month of jihad, referring to the Yom Kippur War as the "renowned Ramadan War of 1973 between the Arabs and Israel." Even lessons of Arabic language contain numerous texts and exercises calling on the students to sacrifice their lives.
I read the source myself and it does not say this at all. This section is also a lie. Deuterium 10:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research and misrepresentation

message: There's a recent movie called Suicide Killers on this subject. We already have an article on The Making of A Martyr. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 22:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movie: Suicide Killers 

message: This article falsely claims that researchers find no incitement to palestinian textbooks. yes, they do.The maps of Palesitne ther eshow no Israel but just occasionally the Green line. None of the maps show Israel. the Palestinian textbooks do incite violence. The proof that supports my claim is endless.-Dendoi Monday, May 7, 2007
::if you have proof, show it. simply saying you have it will not change the article. Also, not showing Israel is not an incitement of violence, it's the expression of their belief that Israel remains Palestine.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.148.209 (talk) 00:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  false claim 

message: Or "Minors as Suicide Bombers" or something to that effect.  When I went to this article I was expecting to see small children (like the little girl in the photo), but the youngest bomber was 16.  I'm not a terrorist sympathizer trying to whitewash the situation, by the way, I just think the title is misleading and possibly POV-pushing. Childe Roland of Gilead 10:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The term Child Suicide Bombers is appropriate.  This is consistent with the consensus of international legal opinion and human rights organizations that calls any combatant under the age of eighteen a child soldier.  Though if it is true that the youngest known suicide bomber in the conflict was 16, that fact should be mentioned in the lead, and showing a picture of someone manifestly younger than that is a violation of WP:NPOV. Sanguinalis 15:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about "Juvenile Suicide Bombers"? 

message: I agree with User:El C in principal about his objection to including that are not broadly relevant to the topic, although I don't know wheter the link in question is objectionable.  Otherwise we risk having editors add every link under the sun pertaining to the subject of the article.
:the link is relevant. Zeq 16:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: The title of this article makes its content an indictment against the use of children in suicide bombing. I find the practice as reprehensible as anyone could, but this article is a misuse of Wikipedia. Is there an article "Adult suicide bombers in the..." or "Child victims of Israeli military strikes"? Xiao t 19:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why dont you look at the refs? The article is justified because the phenomena has been observed in the news. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 01:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article violates WP:POINT

message: I replaced the book cover image with an image of 16-year-old suicide bomber Aamer Alfar.
For one thing, the use of a book cover to illustrate a subject other than the book itself appears to violate WP:NFC ("uses that would almost certainly not be fair use ... 2. An image of a rose, cropped from an image of a record album jacket, used to illustrate an article on roses.", etc)
For another, the image showed a very young girl while all of the actual child suicide bombers have been young adults, "children" in a legal and possibly moral sense but not nearly as young as this child. The image I posted gives a better idea of your typical child suicide bomber.
Eleland 12:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a much more appropriate picture for the article.  Thank you for doing this. Sanguinalis 01:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: Stop inserting the cover scan of "Dying to Kill". This image violates WP:NONFREE as I have already explained. Its inclusion is disallowed by policy. (I have issues with the relevance and implications, but that's not necessary to discuss, since WP:NONFREE already demolishes it.) Since it's used nowhere else I'm going to try and have it deleted entirely. Eleland 12:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah right, it's copyright you are worrying about. ←Humus sapiens ну? 07:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I have explained over and over, I also have problems with the content, but WP:NONFREE clearly requires its removal. Please address this rather than making sarcastic comments which seem to impugn my motives.Eleland 21:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It seems that your "problem" is not "with the content" but rather with reality. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of copyrighted book cover 

message: ===Recruitment and indoctrination===
According to Vamik Volkan, an American psychiatrist who has studied the issue, "Most suicide bombers in the Middle East are chosen as teenagers, 'educated,' and then sent off to perform their duty when they are in their late teens or early to mid-twenties." Volkan finds "little difficulty in finding young men interested in becoming suicide
bombers in Gaza and the West Bank. Repeated actual and expected events humiliate youngsters and interfere with their adaptive identifications with their parents because their parents are humiliated as well." Volkan gives the examples of beatings, torture, or the loss of a parent as typical humiliating events which might make a young person more susceptible to recruitment for suicide terrorism.
Once recruited, children and teenagers are encouraged to cut off contact with "real world" affairs and subjected to an intense program of memorization and repetition of the Qur'an. According to Volkan, "their readings are carefully selected. The 'teachers' also supply sacred sounding, but meaningless, phrases to be repeated over and
over in chant ... These kinds of mystical sayings combined with selected verses from the Quran help to create a 'different internal world' for the 'students.'"
: Above relies too much on the single source, as useful as it is. There have been other psychological examinations of the phenomenon and they should be brought in as well (though try to avoid passing along Shin Bet publicity without critical thinking.) Eleland 21:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "The practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings is generally not supported by Palestinian society" is a lie added to evoke pro-Palestinian support in the West. The overwhelming evidence is to the contrary: posters glorifying shahids are common in Gaza Strip and West Bank, the death for Allah is glamorized in media, schools and mosques, families of suicide bombers enjoy wide respect and monetary assistance, and mothers sending their sons to deaths proudly run and win popular elections. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Public polls currently show <50% support for suicide bombing PERIOD, when no question of the bombers being minors is raised. Nothing you've said constitutes "evidence to the contrary". Militant groups put up posters of their "martyrs", but this doesn't indicate that Palestinian society broadly supports them. The claim that "death for Allah is glamorized" in Palestinian society is made by highly partisan sources, and is, in the case of official schools, provably false. In addition, "death for god" does not equal "suicide bombing" does not equal "child suicide bombing". It should be recognized that general expressions of pride and sympathy for "martyrs" do not equal "support for child the practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings". Families of suicide bombers enjoy wide support and monetary assistance, but this does not indicate support for dispatching child suicide bombers, especially since parents rarely have any idea of their children's plans until they are conducted. One mother who sent 3 sons, one of whom was 17 years old, on suicide missions, was elected as 23rd out of 29 on the Hamas list. This doesn't jump to "Palestinian society generally supports the practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings". Eleland 22:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yawn. Usual denial by usual denier. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you intend to comment further, or shall I take it that this is the extent of your objections? Eleland 01:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed section replacement (work-in-progress) 

message: According to Vamik Volkan, an American psychiatrist who has studied the issue, "Most suicide bombers in the Middle East are chosen as teenagers, 'educated,' and then sent off to perform their duty when they are in their late teens or early to mid-twenties." Volkan finds "little difficulty in finding young men interested in becoming suicide
bombers in Gaza and the West Bank. Repeated actual and expected events humiliate youngsters and interfere with their adaptive identifications with their parents because their parents are humiliated as well." Volkan gives the examples of beatings, torture, or the loss of a parent as typical humiliating events which might make a young person more susceptible to recruitment for suicide terrorism.
Once recruited, children and teenagers are encouraged to cut off contact with "real world" affairs and subjected to an intense program of memorization and repetition of the Qur'an. According to Volkan, "their readings are carefully selected. The 'teachers' also supply sacred sounding, but meaningless, phrases to be repeated over and
over in chant ... These kinds of mystical sayings combined with selected verses from the Quran help to create a 'different internal world' for the 'students.'"
: Above relies too much on the single source, as useful as it is. There have been other psychological examinations of the phenomenon and they should be brought in as well (though try to avoid passing along Shin Bet publicity without critical thinking.) Eleland 21:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "The practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings is generally not supported by Palestinian society" is a lie added to evoke pro-Palestinian support in the West. The overwhelming evidence is to the contrary: posters glorifying shahids are common in Gaza Strip and West Bank, the death for Allah is glamorized in media, schools and mosques, families of suicide bombers enjoy wide respect and monetary assistance, and mothers sending their sons to deaths proudly run and win popular elections. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Public polls currently show <50% support for suicide bombing PERIOD, when no question of the bombers being minors is raised. Nothing you've said constitutes "evidence to the contrary". Militant groups put up posters of their "martyrs", but this doesn't indicate that Palestinian society broadly supports them. The claim that "death for Allah is glamorized" in Palestinian society is made by highly partisan sources, and is, in the case of official schools, provably false. In addition, "death for god" does not equal "suicide bombing" does not equal "child suicide bombing". It should be recognized that general expressions of pride and sympathy for "martyrs" do not equal "support for child the practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings". Families of suicide bombers enjoy wide support and monetary assistance, but this does not indicate support for dispatching child suicide bombers, especially since parents rarely have any idea of their children's plans until they are conducted. One mother who sent 3 sons, one of whom was 17 years old, on suicide missions, was elected as 23rd out of 29 on the Hamas list. This doesn't jump to "Palestinian society generally supports the practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings". Eleland 22:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yawn. Usual denial by usual denier. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you intend to comment further, or shall I take it that this is the extent of your objections? Eleland 01:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recruitment and indoctrination

message: Child suicide bombers are more global than just Israel/Palestine. They're also in Afghanistan (,) and Pakistan () This article should be moved to a more general "Child suicide bombers". Any good reasons to oppose this move? If not, I'll make a request to move the page. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 16:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. You can have another article on afghanistan or in general and refer to thos article from there. Zeq 10:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text: We had similar issues with House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: sure, house demolition happens in all sorts of conflicts, but the information on Israel/Palestine is so overwhelmingly dominant that any article about "House demolition" would tend to fill up with Palestine info unduly. If you can write a decent, sourced article on Child suicide bombers go for it, but this should remain the main article. Eleland 12:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to "Child suicide bombers" 

message: As all article, this should require some secondary sources analyses to be neutral. With only primary sources, it is factual but looks like a little bit non neutral because orientated. Good history and good journalism requires comments. Comments require secondary sources. Alithien 10:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  secondary source analysis 

message: As I have said repeatedly: neither section has anything to do with child suicide bombings. Furthermore, the TV section relies on a bogus translation from a shady Israeli group, and the textbooks section has been systematically altered, censoring the repeated findings of credible academics that PA textbooks do not contain incitement. (Replacing it with some garbage from Hillary Clinton, who has less than zero credibility on this issue.)
I'm removing the sections again. I don't want to see anything added unless reliable sources actually link the content to child suicide bombing. Eleland 14:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely an evidence of indoctrination and propaganda of hatred belongs in this article. I suggest you find yourself another forum for denials, conspiracy theories, etc. At this point your blanking should be considered vandalism. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All you've done is muddy the waters with personal accusations, and baldly assert that your version is better, without addressing any of the points that I've made. Unless you display some willingness to engage in an actual discussion, rather than just asserting that you are right, I'll probably have to drag this stupid dispute into mediation. Your personal opinion that "indoctrination and propaganda" have to do with child suicide bombings is irrelevant. Without reliable sources which link textbooks, and the Hamas-Mickey-Martyr-Mouse program, to child suicide bombings, including these sections is pure original research. Also, please explain why you removed the findings of no incitement by credible academic studies, and replaced them with accusations of incitement from  political partisans with far less credibility (Hillary Clintion, etc). Eleland 17:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please review the discussions above and read some serious scholarly sources on the subject. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please provide these serious scholarly sources. Please explain your removal of the findings of credible academic studies on the issue in favor of statements from interested partisans. I perceive a contradiction between your words and your actions: you demand I "read some serious scholarly sources", while your version of the "textbooks" section specifically removes the findings of serious scholarly sources in favor of the accusations of partisan groups. Eleland 19:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Was it you who complained that the text was irrelevant to the subject? I made it relevant. You are welcome to improve. Blanking and denial won't work. ←Humus sapiens ну? 19:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is anyone going to defend the TV/Textbooks section? 

message: The Volkan article is about all suicide bombers,not child suicide bombers, and should be quoted, if at all, in the parent article.
Incidentally, the Nazi reference is gratuitous, and detracts heavily from the article. As it usually does. Hornplease 19:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree but the Nazi ref is indeed un-needed. Zeq 21:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for weighing in. Could you explain a little further? The Volkan article refers to boys in their late teens or early twenties, young adults rather than children. It talks about how childhood indoctrination creates bombers later in life, and might thus be irrelevant.Hornplease 04:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volkan article 

message: The current argument over PMW is leaving out a highly salient fact - that an earlier version made it clear that the textbook accusations were partisan nonsense, by actually reporting what neutral academics said, rather than just reporting that they said something. For example:
Ruth Firer of the Harry S. Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Sami Adwan, a professor of education at Bethlehem University in Bethlehem compared Palestinian and Israeli textbooks in 2002. Of the Palestinian textbooks they found that "The books portray Jews throughout history in a positive manner and avoid negative stereotypes. However, according to the everyday experience of Palestinians, modern-day Israelis are presented as occupiers. The texts include examples of Israelis killing and imprisoning Palestinians, demolishing their homes, uprooting fruit trees, and confiscating their lands and building settlements on them. The texts also talk about the right of return for the 1948 Palestinian refugees when describing how those refugees live in camps." The Israeli textbooks, on the other hand don't even mention Palestinians "The Palestinians, as such, are not found in any of the three types of primary-level textbooks." Disputed territory is presented as being part of Israel: "Many of the chapters describe "the good land," sometimes called "our birthplace" or "homeland" ("moledet" in Hebrew), and include photos of places that are in the PNA or are in dispute between the two nations (i.e., East Jerusalem). They are presented without the national-political debate, and as naturally belonging to the Israeli state."[14]
This is just a sample; the other studied came up with much the same. Denial indeed. Eleland 16:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't be mislead 

message: http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//547015
-- JaakobouChalk Talk 03:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on your uneven reputation I simply do not trust you to accurately summarize a report in a language I can't read, nor to accurately evaluate the reliability of Walla or wherever the report originally came from. <eleland/talkedits> 03:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  new ref + story 

message: Per the discussion at the AfD, I would like to formally propose that we rename this article to Suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and write a good, reliably source, not WP:OR article on the subject that includes some of the information already in this article. Any takers? Tiamut 02:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You would like to, but have you actually formally proposed it?  In any event, I oppose the renaming.  We could have articles on both.  6SJ7 (talk) 06:00, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Oppose renaming. The child suicide bombers phenomena deserves a seperate article. MathKnight Gothic Israeli Jew 10:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

text: oppose renaming. JaakobouChalk Talk 18:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Can someone please point me to any reliable secondary source which is about Palestinian child suicide bombers? <eleland/talkedits> 20:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: , ,  - google is your friend . JaakobouChalk Talk 22:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposing rename of article

message: What the hey it's been almost a year since this thing was basically abandoned. I've gone ahead and made various proposed changes in line with relevant sources and core content policies. If you have any objections I'd appreciate discussion. If you must revert me please consider reverting only those specific edits you disagree with rather than a wholesale rollback. Cheers, <eleland/talkedits> 07:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: So then

message: In the last line of the baby suicide bomber section; the following line can be found:
"Other photos of children dressed up as terrorists have been published since then".
So what is "dressed up like terrorists"? You are not considering the Palestinians' Freedom Fighting RIGHT!!! 
This is very POV and completely Israeli side story telling. Even wikipedia is completely taking israeli side.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.129.60.214 (talk) 23:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever -- blowing up pizza parlors and Passover meals has no legitimate military purpose recognized by international law, and has been called illegal by "leftie" organizations such as Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch.  Deal with it. AnonMoos (talk) 14:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  baby suicide bomber 

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I have just added archive links to  on Child suicide bombers in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140420015352/http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/28/israel1 to http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/28/israel1
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050305065025/http://www1.idf.il:80/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN to http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=37529.EN
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070221085401/http://archives.cnn.com:80/2002/WORLD/meast/06/28/baby.photo/index.html to http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/28/baby.photo/index.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Child suicide bombers in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20160126002144/http://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/1.1002121 to http://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/1.1002121
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090115042857/http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/11561.htm to http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/11561.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: 82.14.99.113 (talk) 07:37, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — IVORK Talk 03:54, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: And of course, article deletion discussions happen at WP:AFD, not on article talk pages. Meters (talk) 00:17, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2021 

message: Would something like Child suicide bombing in Palestine be an improvement or cause too large a drop in precision? I feel the detail can be elaborated in-text. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:30, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @Iskandar323 are you serious?! that would be like Reuters title after a terrorist attack "palestinian man dies after bar attack". you don't even try hiding your bias at this point. MoshiachNow (talk) 00:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @MoshiachNow: No, it's not like that (flawed analogy). And please refrain from personal attacks. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

text: Iskandar323 -- Unfortunately the phrase "child suicide bombing" is ambiguous between what grammarians would call a "subjective genitive" interpretation and an "objective genitive" interpretation.  The shortest unambiguous title would be "Suicide bombing by children in Palestine".  The current title was probably chosen to express the idea that in the case of children, the bombers' recruiters and handlers have the main moral responsibility (perhaps legal liability also in some cases). AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, thanks for the input. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Title is a mouthful

message: Please remove the following paragraph:
"At the height of the phenomenon, Avraham Burg, former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel, speaker of Israel's Knesset and interim President of Israel, stated his view that, given Israeli indifference to the tortured lives of Palestinian children under occupation, suicide bombings come as no surprise. [4]"
The paragraph gives undue weight to an opinion that practically justifies Palestinian suicide bombers. The opinion does not represent the majority Israeli opinion, but an opinion of a politician who is considered a radical leftist. The paragraph gives undue weight to a fringe opinion. 2A0D:6FC0:6E5:2F00:354E:3006:9087:2E1D (talk) 15:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: —Sirdog (talk) 12:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request