Talk:Taiwan High Speed Rail

message: In revision 287890573, Will74205 again removed a qualification of the THSR's Shinkansen origins as one pertaining to the core technology, citing bad grammar on my part. My grammar may be bad, but what's Shinkansen-based about the THSR is only the (majority of) the core system (main parts & basic standards for trains + track + superstructure) -- not the operation, not the business model, not specific subsystems. 
As for some examples of usage with "core", I dug up a Japan Railway & Transport Review article (f.e. " Finally, the Japanese core system was selected, because the conditions proposed by the Japanese suppliers were best.", "As mentioned, although the core system is basically Japanese, a number of significant modifications have been made and some subsystems used in Europe have also been adopted.") and a Japan Times article ("Taiwan High Speed Rail in 2000 contracted Taiwan Shinkansen Engineering, a consortium of seven Japanese firms, to provide and maintain the core technology for the bullet-train network"). The article's formulation should be changed into something based on these.  --Rontombontom (talk) 13:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I don't really understand what you think is the difference.  "Based on" means just that: some parts, maybe even quite a few parts, may have been changed, but the core is the same.  Perhaps "The THSR is technologically based on..." would be better? Jpatokal (talk) 15:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Core technology/system 

message: Can someone cite actual sources on what arguments Taiwanese authorities used to explain why they have chosen the Japanese offer and rejected Eurotrain in the end?
One of the two reasons currently named in the article is spurious, given that (1) the loss of the contract came as a surprise for preferred bidders Eurotrain more than a year after Eschede, (2) as well known by the end of 1999, the Eschede disaster was caused by a design deficiency of ICE 1 wheels, which did not affect the ICE 2 and SNCF TGV Duplex trains forming the basis of the Eurotrain; (3) the Eschede disaster happened on a conventional line, involving a switch and a bridge with designs not present on high-speed lines. It is possible that THSRC decisionmakers did not voice their doubts to Eurotrain and were clueless about points 2 and 3, and thus that Eschede really played a role as the article currently claims; but an actual source with a reference to the Eschede disaster would be needed here as evidence. --Rontombontom (talk) 21:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now dug up the history of the awarding controversy, resulting in a major re-work of the History and Controversy sections. (I also found the likely source of the above criticised claim: rhetoric about the Eurostar offer being "burdened by the still vivid memories" of the Eschede crash in a book written by the pro-Japanese then President eight months prior to THSRC's decision.) The latter got rather long -- maybe I should separate it out into a separate article, with a short summary in the main article? --Rontombontom (talk) 23:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awarding 

message: ummm... somehow I don't think this is quite correct. I assume the writer was trying to say that said trains will be direct ones with no intermediate stops. Could someone confirm this and change things accordingly? Tompw 18:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Some trains will stop at no stations" 

message: says something about nearly 20 billion USD ...
It seems to have been officially opened now. JensMueller 16:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cost 

message: Is one train line a "network"? JensMueller 16:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a warp thread or a spine. Jjok 17:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Network" 

message: "It is alleged because Shinkansen have been adopting earthquake detection system called UrEDAS (Urgent Earthquake Detection and Alarm System) since 1992." Alleged usually implies a suggestion or implication that somebody has done something wrong.  If the rationale for dropping ICE and going with Shinkansen technology is correct, then THSRC's decision appears to be a wise one. Another word should be used here, and the sentence is really a fragment. 4.243.206.105 22:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unclear

message: The map currently says "In service until 2011", which gives exactly the wrong impression: it should be (for example) "Scheduled to open by 2011". Jpatokal 05:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing map 

message: When was the railway formally opened with the full operating schedule?  At the same time as Taipei station? Jpatokal 13:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formal opening? 

message: Currently, tickets have all the information printed on them that is needed to ride the trains, but they do not have an imprinted logo or the words "Taiwan High Speed Rail" printed on them in Chinese or English. However, this will be corrected by the HSR marketing department as soon as possible, with new HSR tickets sporting the company's logo.
Who cares whether the tickets have "Taiwan High Speed Rail" printed on them in Chinese, English, or anything else? In the unlikely event it does matter, the statement should be sourced. 4.243.227.165 00:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. Jpatokal 05:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who cares? 

message: "Some of the same Japanese companies won another project in December 2005 to build a high speed rail link to Taiwan Taoyuan International Airport, with the exception of the signaling system which has been awarded to Westinghouse Rail Systems."
Any info about the schedule? I saw a construction fence and a sign mentioning some government authority on Taoyuan airport last Sunday. --141.3.48.218 (talk) 12:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It mentioned "Director General of Bureau of Taiwan High Speed Rail of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications", so it might also be related to the MRT system. --141.3.48.218 (talk) 12:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Clicky clicky -- this is already linked in from the article: Taoyuan International Airport Access MRT System Jpatokal (talk) 03:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taoyuan airport link 

message: Prompted by the dead link galore following major source Taiwan Times's recent website re-design, and my search for sources on a vibrations issue mentioned above, I also implemented a revision of the article which I planned for over a year. As it is quite major, I thought I should detail the reasons and some of my choices on sources and content here rather than just in edit summaries.
* I felt that the Eurotrain/awarding part of the Controversy section (which was largely my addition) ended up too long in comparison to other issues, yet still lacked many details. So I shortened it, and created the new Eurotrain article, where I covered the issue more elaborately.
* The rest of the Controversy section was all over the place. I tried to group the material thematically rather than chronologically, and complement it with a lot more sources.
* I also thought for long that the article over-emphasizes the Shinkansen origins, given the domestic input and Eurotrain legacies (also see Core technology/system). In the sources I dug up now, I found that the mixing of technologies extended even to the core system, and that this has been reason for considerable friction between THSRC and TSC, with just the TSC side and Japanese media being explicit about and emphasizing the integration of Japanese and European technologies, as a reason for conflict and delays.
* The articles about the conflict between THSRC and TSC regarding technology integration consistently report that TSC raised safety concerns as argument. Now TSC can hardly be considered an objective source, given that the technology mix affected its commercial interests negatively and the fact that the same technologies were then mixed with no qualms in China; but I thought it's worth to include this in the Controversy section, and more explicitly in the earthquake issue (see below).
* The unsourced sentence about the UrEDAS earthquake early warning system was also bugging me for long, because I couldn't find any source mentioning its use in THSR. But the February earthquake 'did me a favour' in generating lots of English-language media coverage of the issue, with sources explicitly saying that THSR does not have an earthquake early warning system, only a simple detection system that's not even a design of earthquake-experienced Japanese manufacturers, which some (including experts) criticised as a deficiency. (I also made some readup on the technical issues behind the debate on whether installing UrEDAS would make sense. If anyone is interested, it appears that the original system brings insignificant time savings if the quake occurs close to the line and close to the surface; as common in Taiwan and as happened when a quake derailed a train on the Joetsu Shinkansen - see f.e. SHATTERED BELIEF: Biting the bullet - and THSRC was looking for a more advanced system, something into which research is on-going in Japan. I realise however that including this in the article would be WP:OR.)
* The original article included this: "Critics pointed out that the total cost had exceeded $15 billion, or about $650 for every person in Taiwan." Without comparing it to some original costs, and without explaining why cost per person in Taiwan is relevant (the $15 billion aren't tax dollars), this doesn't make any sense; what's more, I find that this was a mis-statement of the source, where the numbers came up in a much more ominous context. So I cut this down and covered the change of cost estimates with better sources.
* I'm not sure what to make of the New York Times quote on energy usage. Where is the controversy? Maybe this part lost its context in some edit in the past? And is a long inline quote fine with current Wikipedia policy? The points made are certainly worth to include, but maybe elsewhere and maybe in a different form. I left it untouched for now.
* I also deleted a paragraph about the airport link: methinks the list of suppliers of another project are irrelevant here. However, I wouldn't be against re-inserting the airport link elsewhere in the article, and mentioning the shared suppliers, if a source establishes some connection in operation or ownership.
I hope other editors are fine with the new version and that these explanations are sufficient. --Rontombontom (talk) 09:24, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: More major edits: move and improvement of the track map, branching out the Costs & financing resp. Management sub-sections, condensation of the Stations section. I also corrected my misinterpretation of the source on costs in an earlier edit, completed the picture on finances, and added the "fat cats" controversy. Still want to do: a new Operation/Tickets sub-section, importing what I can from the Chinese version of the article. --Rontombontom (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major revision of structuring, History, Controversy and Construction sections 

message: With the tickets section, I have now completed all the major additions/improvements I planned. I also asked the creator of the map on his Wikimedia Commons user page to update it. Once that's done, I'd add a WP:GA nomination. --Rontombontom (talk) 10:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article? 

message: I undid an edit claiming that Continental Engineering Corporation was the primary company involved in construction, noting that it's unsourced in the edit summary. In addition, I think it's plain wrong. CEC was part of the consortia for C260 and C270 only -- check a list of contractors on page 3 here; a number of other companies had (at least) two contracts, too. (And I would not see the point to list them all.) --Rontombontom (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I've gathered, in addition to C260 and C270 (which you mentioned), they also had a role in C250 and C295.  However, I agree, calling them the "primary company" is pushing it. -Multivariable (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah yes, those are station contracts, marked S (S250 and S295). There is another company (Evergreen) with two (open line) civil works and two station contracts in the complete list of construction contractors I found in this annual report. --Rontombontom (talk) 13:49, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continental Engineering Corporation 

message: Currently, we have the geographic map in the infobox in hidden state, and the track map in the "Construction" section in default display. There is no guideline on this I can find, but from what I saw in other articles, our layout is not common: if there are both kinds of maps, usually, the track map is hidden in the infobox (indeed Template:Infobox rail line makes special mention of route maps), and the geographic map is somewhere in the first sections as larger than thumbnail size image. If we'd followed that, the geographic map could be placed right at the beginning in the "Origins" section. Then, we could also move all (ands any number of) viaduct-station-tunnel/track photos to the right, and they wouldn't potentially mess with section titles for viewers who set wide screens and small fonts.
On the other hand, what I like about the current layout is that one can look up the relative location of all sections, stations and superstructures mentioned in the "Construction" section just by glancing right. And the geographic map doesn't add much in the way of localisation to "runs along the west coast of Taiwan" in the intro sentence.
Any other opinions in this matter? --Rontombontom (talk) 09:53, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I also like the track map a lot, but there's no doubt it takes up a lot of space. In my opinion, the geographic map is great, but as you said, since this is a single high speed rail line, there's not really that much that can be gained by looking at it. I wonder what others think about this? -Multivariable (talk) 02:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Map placement dilemma

message: I asked someone with better photo editing skills than mine to make another go at improving the only free image suitable as illustration, the result is to the right.
The photo was made at the Railway to Galaxy restaurant near Shetou Tonwship in Changhua County (No. 27之1號, 後路巷, 社頭鄉 彰化縣, Taiwan 511), so if any Wikipedian happens to be in the vicinity in good weather in the morning hours with a camera, it's the perfect location... --Rontombontom (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Viaduct photo

message: A question to Diannaa on her edits. At several places, you removed the words "however" (usually at the start of sentences) and "finally". Was this under WP:EDITORIAL? I mean this:
In one case ("THSRC declared the Eurotrain consortium its preferred bidder...  However, THSRC launched a formal tender in June 1999..." in the section "Project structure"), I reverted as I'm quite certain that the relationship exists, after all, the subject of the preferred biddership and the tender were the same, and the legal consequences are described later in a whole paragraph (and in even more detail in a wikilinked main article). But I ask about two of the others.
* In the part on driver inspections, would a "however" require a source stating that the ministry explicitely termed the company's own measures insufficient?
* In the part on earthquakes and the emergency system, isn't there a clear connection, and wouldn't an undermining appropiate as the sources report an agreement of all parties that the system was insufficient (even if differing on what needs change)?
*:I almost always remove the word "however", unless the stated outcome seems unexpected from the material that comes before. --Diannaa (Talk) 15:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is another word I typically remove as being a little POV. --Diannaa (Talk) 15:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  However, finally etc. question 

message: Also in the section on earthquakes, "state organs" changed to "officials". What was the reason? I think "officials" can be misread as including officials of operating company THSRC.  --Rontombontom (talk) 12:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "State organs" is simply a phrase that is never used in English. If you think "officials" is ambiguous, you should change it to "government officials". ---Diannaa (Talk) 15:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I considered "authorities", then checked the sources again for specifics. Although the reference to experts was by the head of a government authority (BOHSR), THSRC officials are also cited (including indirectly by the head of BOHSR); so I leave it. --Rontombontom (talk) 17:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Officials

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message: Mention that unlike Taiwan Railways Administration, trains "drive on the right". And for simple stations, 
Platform 1 is southbound, Platform 2 is northbound. (So one supposes so are track 1 and track 2 internally named...) Jidanni (talk) 14:58, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention trains "drive on the right"