Talk:Color-blind casting

message: I propose merging Whitewashing_in_film into Colour-blind_Casting. Whitewashing is a form of colourblind casting and we don't need different pages for different races eg whitewashing, blackwashing, etc. Whitewashing_in_film is WP:REDUNDANT. RustlingLeaves (talk) 04:59, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose: Despite some similarity of the articles, they seem to be about distinct concepts. Do the articles' sources treat the concepts as interchangeable? MartinPoulter (talk) 17:43, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Blackwashing redirects to Color-blind_casting. Whitewashing is a separate article. We could start a new separate page for blackwashing I suppose, then we'll have three articles overlapping different applications of the same concept. What is the difference between the three? I think the difference might be intent, eg if the casting directors were indifferent to race, then it was colour-blind_casting, but if they race-swapped on purpose then it was whitewashing / blackwashing. But how do we prove intent or indifference for each example, productions don't always explain their casting choices publicly. RustlingLeaves (talk) 23:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose: While similar, the concepts are different (at least in how they're perceived), and I think it's hard to argue that these terms are commonly used interchangeably. Perhaps the pejorative perception of whitewashing should be described in more detail in this article in order to highlight its distinction from color-blind casting. Puhala,ny (talk) 16:58, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose. There is not much that I can say that hasn't been said. Thus, I will reiterate that these are evidently two completely different topics. Maxx-♥ talk and coffee ☕ 18:08, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: This article is specifically about colour-blind casting, which is defined as casting without considering the actor's ethnicity or race. But what then do we do about casting choices where the casting was deliberately race-swapped? Where the actor's race WAS considered and deliberately cast to change the character's race? This is what's happened in the recent Netflix series Cleopatra, the producer and director have said they deliberately cast a black woman, so that's not colour-blind casting. Do we need a separate article for deliberate race-swaps? RustlingLeaves (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking the same, is it "color blind casting" when a black person is portraying a white character, but Whitewashing in film when its the opposite? There should be a Blackwashing in film as well if you ask me--Qenneth (talk) 07:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Blackwashing is very prevalent today and needs to be addressed. I can list examples for days and any mention of whitewashing doesn't compare to the sheer scale of blackwashing so don't even try it. Raceswapping historical figures is cultural destruction and rewriting history. Africans are the biggest offenders today and they need to pay for these crimes 2600:8807:8840:D880:31A1:52AF:83D8:5702 (talk) 22:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Don't get too logical and unbiased on us. JimmyPiersall (talk) 13:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, it should have its own topic given white washing and color blind casting are distinct articles. Rumi089746432 (talk) 01:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: "without considering the actor's ethnicity or race"

message: Would not the reciprocal, a white actor playing a traditionally black part, come under this definition? Are there any examples of this occuring? LukeSurl t c 19:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: see my addition on this point Neddyseagoon - talk 08:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not convinced by that example. Casting all the white characters with black actors and the black character with a white actor isn't colour-blind, because the colour still matters; I'd call it inverted casting, or role-reversal casting, or something. --Paul A 08:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but it's the closest parallel I could think of.  Black actors playing traditionally white parts is more common in the period 1970-present than vice versa, and before that "white actors playing traditionally black roles" didn't occur since there were (relatively) so few black actors.Neddyseagoon - talk 10:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The most famous incident I can think of is when Laurence Olivier "blacked up" as the role of Othello.theolimeister (talk) 18:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I was the person who requested this article, thanks for starting it! There are several additional things that I think it might be interesting to address, if references are available. Just off the top of my head:
*The mix in theatre, musicals, television and film. My understanding is that it's most common in theatre and very rare in film, but that might be wrong.
*The prevalence in different countries. The sources I've seen suggest it was pioneered in the UK, with companies such as the RSC, but I don't have a perspective on other countries.
*More precision on 'historical' -- several sources suggest that more recent historical figures eg Queen Victoria or Churchill would not be as easily accepted as distant historical/Shakespearean figures.
*The difference between roles explicitly known to be white eg English kings, and roles with a strong presumption of white race, but which isn't explicitly stated in the text eg Hamlet.
*Recent criticisms on race grounds eg see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/20/AR2005052001944.html & http://www.cre.gov.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-0hgnew0bh.RefLocID-0hg01b00100600g003.Lang-EN.htm
*Other potential criticisms, such as difficulties in understanding family relationships (eg a white child of a black parent might raise confusing suspicions of illegitimacy in the audience).
*The use of colour-blind casting as a defence of an all-white cast in situations where the people portrayed would tend to be an ethnic mix, eg criticism of The Class: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/tvblog/2006/07/colorblind_casting.html
Espresso Addict 01:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't watch the Doctor Who episodes that do that - totally unable to suspend disbelief. Same with the ridiculous Merlin episodes that feature a black Guinevere: for God's sake, the actual meaning of her name is "blonde"! RomanSpa (talk) 20:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some other possibilities for discussion 

message: Cleveland Brown in Family Guy and the Cleveland Show is a primary example. He is played by Mike Henry who also voices African american character Raillo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.92.255.42 (talk) 02:55, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  another notable example 

message: Color blind casting includes all races, including white, which would make white washing color blind casting. But it describes the practice of casting a non white actor in a traditionally white character. DJokerNr1 (talk) 06:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: White washing is only color-blind casting if race is not a factor in the casting. Historically, this has not generally been the case. Roles like Charlie Chan or Silas Lynch weren't cast color-blind. They were specifically called for a white actor. In modern times, often roles are specifically rewritten as white (with "caucasian" specified in the casting call) because it is felt that the film will sell better in some territories as a result. 76.14.28.144 (talk) 22:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What about B.D.Williams in Batman then? He wasn't chosen despite of his race but because of it, you can read it in the Wikiedia entry on the movie. I'm not saying we should come up with an article on "blackwashing" or anything like that (though I don't feel okay about "whitewashing" being the counterpart to "non-tradition/color-blind casting" as the former have some clearly negative overtones to it) but let's get things straight I say. Jaro7788 (talk) 07:20, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me before you can call this non-traditional casting, that you need to define traditional casting. Once you do that, anything else is non-traditional. There should also be gender-blind casting (I don't know that anyone has done it), and maybe some other things that aren't traditional. Gah4 (talk) 18:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request moving page to Non-tradition casting 

message: This article is supposed to be the opposite of the whitewashing in film) article. So why does this article try to portray this as something 'normal' or acceptable' when whitewashing is portrayed as something terrible? Non-whites acting white historical figures in film is much more common than whites doing the same to non-whites, and yet an attempt is made to try to portray this as something positive and just a way to help non-white actors be seen? What kind of bullshit is that? I'm not very familiar with Wikipedia but if people agree, I'd contribute to completely revamping this entire article into being just that, an opposite of whitewashing but for when non-whites are used to play the roles of historical white figures. 194.237.157.205 (talk) 11:20, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this article called ''color-blind casting'' and not ''non-whitewashing'' 

message: 2016's Grease Live was also an example of colorblind casting. It took place in the 1950s, where racism was common. Actors such as Keke Palmer, Vanessa Hudgens, Carlos Penavega, Mario Lopez, etc were in the movie  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6001:E790:5800:2DE6:3859:8451:35D1 (talk) 03:15, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: But was it really blind, or was it intentional?  They are very different. Gah4 (talk) 18:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add 2016's  grease. 

message: Annie is another example of color blind casting. For example, Annie, who is traditionally played by white actresses, has been played by Quvenzhané Wallis, a black actress. She was born around the time Katharine Hepburn, Bob Hope, Buddy Ebsen, Gregory Peck, etc all passed. Audrey Hepburn and Lillian Gish passed 10 years prior. Anyways, please add Annie.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6001:E790:5800:B0FC:59FD:41BF:6D59 (talk) 05:20, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. It was intentional. The role was changed to black so it could be a vehicle for Willow Smith. When development took too long they changed to a new black actress.Correctron (talk) 06:27, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Annie 

message: i am asking this because the term colorblind imply its color blind even when it comes to white actors, but the page gives the impression (with examples) that it's a practice that casts POC actors in traditionally white roles. AmateurFilmcritique (talk) 10:21, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding for Grey%27s Anatomy is that they cast the actors, and then assigned them to parts randomly.  It should be the method, not the results. If you explicitly, for example, cast all the white actors to black rolls, or vice versa, or both, then it isn't blind. I am not sure that you can get actors to accept a position without telling them which part is theirs, but that is the way it should work. In the cast of Grey's Anatomy, as I understand it, it was also gender blind.  Non-traditional would be used for explicit casting, like an african-american for a Disney princess.  Gah4 (talk) 04:47, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does color blind casting include white people? or should it be renamed non traditional casting? 

message: This article lacks a lot of references for its examples. They need to be referenced and will otherwise be removed. Furthermore, the examples should either have a "Media" column or be grouped into sub-sections by media (film, TV, plays). The lead section is also lacking in discussing color-blind casting, which from what I have seen has its roots in plays. There is recent coverage about color-blind casting in Hamilton that can be factored in with the background of this casting practice. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:53, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional citations for verification 

message: Should we mention, and link to, Blinded experiment which is the more generic form of blind casting?  Gah4 (talk) 05:23, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that in a statistical sense, as in Blinded experiment, blind has a specific meaning. That some information is unavailable to the decision process. I am not sure that is completely possible in the case of casting, but it should not include cases where a choice was made to use a specific group for the position. I suspect that excludes some that are currently on the list. On the other hand, I don't completely understand the non-traditional idea yet, though it does seem to me that it should include the intentional case. Gah4 (talk) 00:28, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Blinded experiment]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is this article exclusively for examples in film/stage? Is television also allowed? If so, how would I go about doing the year? The Verified Cactus 100% 15:00, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exclusively film? 

message: I find myself in disagreement with almost the entirety of this edit by an IP user.  It added a large number of examples that involve white actors cast as nonwhite characters (normally considered whitewashing and not "color-blind casting"), actors cast in roles of different but similar ethnicities where they would not normally be considered a different "color" (such as Keanu Reeves, who is of partial Chinese and Hawaiian Native ancestry, playing a half-Japanese character; or Rami Malek, born to Egyptian immigrants, playing Freddie Mercury, who was Parsi) (although the article also already had a couple examples like that, but I disagree with their inclusion, too), or actors and characters that differ in whether or not they are Jewish (rarely considered a race, and certainly not a "color").  Of the entire edit, the only ones I would keep are Vin Diesel and Jordana Brewster as siblings in The Fast and the Furious (because, yes, casting people of--some would say--visibly different races as family can be considered nontraditional/color-blind), and Sienna Guillory in Resident Evil: Afterlife (because although it is a white actress cast in a formerly biracial role, it may be that the character's race was actually changed, and that they simply cast the strongest actress--if there is a source for that).  I'm reluctant to revert such a large edit, so I wanted to put it up here for comment first.  If there is no objection after a few days, I will probably delete all but the two examples I mentioned, and look for a source on the second or tag it as needed.  --DavidK93 (talk) 14:33, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's whitewashing for sure. I've reverted it. Unfortunately, most of the entries should be removed because they are unsourced. Just because it can seem "obvious" to a person does not qualify it for inclusion. We need to have entries that are explicitly tied to the topic. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 22:14, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Large Edit 

message: I believe the sentence "In 18th century Russia, the entire court would have been white" is conjectural and cannot be firmly supported.  Not only was Abram Petrovich Gannibal alive during this time, according to Wikipedia "he had 11 children, most of whom became members of the Russian nobility".  While I agree that The Great belongs on the page (the number of characters played by non-white actors far exceeds what could be historically expected and people from the show have directly talked about color-blind casting being purposeful), I think this sentence needs to be re-written or removed.  For the time being, I have removed it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal
MadContrabassoonist (talk) 12:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Great - Abram Petrovich Gannibal 

message: Blackwashing has a specific connotation, namely putting Black people in prominent places as a means to evade or stifle criticisms of anti-Black racism. There's not one goddamn mention of this in the article, and I don't think I'd be remiss to call it a complete whitewash! 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:F8E5:4B59:7519:2850 (talk) 03:57, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally agree. "Blackwashing" needs its own article. It's an entirely separate thing from "colorblind casting". "Colorblind casting" is where a role has no specific ethnic associations and can hence be played by anyone. "Blackwashing" is the deliberate and inappropriate casting of black actors in white roles, and hence is as racist and offensive as "whitewashing". 86.14.41.37 (talk) 12:32, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: And which sources suggest that this is racist? Dimadick (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Which sources say that racist act is racist? 88.156.136.209 (talk) 11:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

text: The motivation for casting white or black characters in roles since probably 1980 has been, with very few exceptions, a means to financial and political ends - as were the interests in portraying white actors as black, indian, and other raced characters. If the process were really color-blind, rather than quota focused, award seeking, CRT mired, checkbox checking representation, it is not color-blind. It is color conscious (racist). Nonperson1 (talk) 16:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  How the hell does "Blackwashing" redirect to here??? 

message: Those epic films from 1940-1970 like Ben-Hur (1959 film), The Ten Commandments (1956 film) and Sodom and Gomorrah (1962 film) where played by caucasian looking people, not Mediterranean, Jews or Arabs, but e made to look as closely as possible to those peoples historically recognisable characteristics. Of course a interpretation. This is normal in acting, but dose it need a separate skin colour category? If something similar is needed, there could be a general wider WP article on anachronisms in films. The so-called semitic people are generally classed as caucasian. For Omar Sharifs part, he's feature are not generally different then those of the darker haired southern Russians or any other of the over 190 ethnic groups in Russia.ReinoLeino (talk) 07:40, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is recentism and and cherry picked - should be moved somewhere else 

message: I guess that the new Ghostbusters film does not count because making the characters females was intended, doesn't it? --Error (talk) 17:04, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct, it does not count. Mostly because "females" is not a race. 199.120.30.202 (talk) 21:36, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ghostbusters 

message: Should the controversy about the Roman Britain cartoon be mentioned?
There is no "casting" and the depiction of a dark-skinned Roman soldier seems intended.
--Error (talk) 17:18, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Britain 

message: Should Kurosawa's retelling of King Lear in Ran be mentioned?
The remake of The Seven Samurai as The Magnificent Seven?
:Category:Films based on Patrol (novel)?
--Error (talk) 18:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retellings 

message: A lot of the examples are "A comic book character who was white in the comics is cast differently in a film". That could be a colour-blind casting choice, but it could equally just be a decision to change the character as written (in Catwoman for example, Halle Berry plays a new character called Patience Phillips, not the Selena Kyle from the comics). As I understand it, colour-blind casting is something a bit more specific - the character is specifically cast against the race that might be the most obvious choice. For example, examples that should stay would be, say, The Personal Life of David Copperfield, which casts actors of different ethnic backgrounds in a historical setting and even within families, or the 1966 Batman, where Eartha Kitt was cast directly to replace a white actress. Smurrayinchester 11:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work. These all look like good decisions. MartinPoulter (talk) 19:37, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reduce examples - many don't really fit 

message: Hi folks. I plan to clear out lines from §Examples that don't have reliable sources in a week or so. I wanted to give a heads up in case others have input or want to put in the work on finding sources that explicitly support "color-blind casting". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purging unsourced examples 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Blackwashing in film and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 14#Blackwashing in film until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:52, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Blackwashing in film" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: portrayed by Irish-Scottish actor Billy Connolly?
Billy Connolly is Scottish with some Irish ancestry; not an Irishman who has settled in Scotland.
Nuttyskin (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish-Scottish? 

message: Blackwashing is a non-neutral term that redirects here after a no-consensus RfF discussion. There is no content about blackwashing in the body of the article. IP 84.216.186.70 has twice added the term in bold to the lead. I'm opposed, and would like to know how other editors feel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:54, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Now removed by . Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a recurring bout of POV editing on whitewashing in film not long ago and I imagine this may be connected with it. Andre🚐 20:49, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black washing  

message: The definition used in the article currently is “Color-blind casting is the practice of casting without considering the actor's ethnicity or race.”
The examples suggest roles where the source material states or historical setting implies that the character’s original race was later changed with another.
Should there also be mention (or updating of the definition to distinguish from) instances where the script doesn’t explicitly state the character’s race and therefore casting of a particular race for the role is not “blind” as it was up for interpretation?  For example, casting Keanu Reeves after Will Smith turned down the role of Neo in The Matrix was not a color-blind casting choice.
A better definition then would be: “Color-blind casting is the practice of casting a role as a race different from (blind of) the character’s race as written in the source material, of the real-life person being characterized, or implied in the historical setting of the work.”
Finally, I think it should be worth noting some of the reasons behind the decision to blind-cast: it could be to create opportunity for actors, present the world of the film or work as more diverse than what the source material offered, or with specific artistic intent (Lin-Manuel Miranda creator of Hamilton stated he wanted the casting to depict “America Now”).
Thoughts? 2600:1700:291:5B60:BD30:DDD7:35FA:38CD (talk) 02:15, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification on the definition 

message: This is incorrect as it doesn't include white people and white washing is a separate article.  This contradicts the article title, as it literally doesn't mean what it says, as it is not color blind.  It is racist. 207.255.107.93 (talk) 15:20, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect title name - Color Blind Casting