Talk:Arabs of Khuzestan/Archive 1

message: The distinction between "Persian Arabs" and "Iranian Arabs" seems to conflate culture and descent. So far as I can tell from the article, Iranian Arabs are described as following "non-Persian" customs and organizing themselves in tribes. Persian Arabs are just like other Persians but they speak Arabic. Iranian Arabs are described as immigrants and Persian Arabs as real old-stock Persian. 
But ... you can't just assume that cultural differences mean differences in descent. Culture isn't transmitted in the genes ... it's learned. In this case, you can't even assume that someone in a tribe, claiming Arab descent, is really of Arab descent, since in the first century of Islam converts were required to have an Arab patron and be adopted into an Arab tribe. The only way to demonstrate any of this would be genetic analysis. Do you have any to cite? 
There was a recent article in the National Geographic about a genetic survey done in Lebanon. I don't recall all the details, but the survey showed a surprising continuity between the pre-Arab-conquest population and people who would be described as Arab now. 
Scholars are quite interested in the whole process of "Arabicization" right now. Why did it happen in some countries and not in others? How IS it that the peoples of the Iranian plateau kept their own languages and, to a great extent, cultures, whereas the non-Arabs of Syria and Iraq gradually became "Arab"? It's a hard topic to study, as it is only glancingly treated by conventional history, which is a record of wars and conquests and dynasties, not of culture and language. Zora 07:48, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Responded on Talk:Khuzestan. SouthernComfort 09:07, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distinction between "Persian Arabs" and "Iranian Arabs" 

message: Slight changes I had to make:
#Arabic newspapers are not banned in Iran. They arent. I purchase them myself in Tehran. Look for yourself:  (The newspaper is printed in Tehran)
#The phrase "demonized Arabs". When Iran says "Arabs", they mean foreign country Arabs (e.g. Bahran, Saudis, Kuwait, Egypt, etc), not the insider local Arab population, which is considered by the govt and Iranians as "Iranian". (in the eyes of the Iranian govt, Iran is one country with many ethnicities and languages).
#The sentence about "supporters of the central government". Am I a supporter of the central government? I am not. Is this ghetto in Tehran populated by Arabs? It is not. It is fact that poverty in Iran is not just limited to Khuzestan. Some provinces have it wose than Khuzestan.--Zereshk 23:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to changes to changes

message: Hajjagha, this is the second article relating to Khuzestan that you've attacked, deleting swathes of material on the grounds that it's "false" or "racist". You clearly do not like any mention of the Arab minority in Khuzestan. Please stop trying to censor articles. Zora 16:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't censor article 

message: The sentence re Bani-Torof is OK, but the following sentence, which seeks to disprove him, is not. He seems to be talking about genetic continuity, which is an entirely different matter from cultural or linguistic continuity. If the Khuzestani Arabs speak a Semitic language, that doesn't make them genetically Semitic -- anymore than growing up in the U.S. and speaking only English makes the child of Persian immigrants "genetically" identical to everyone else in the U.S. (as if there were uniformity, but there isn't). Now Bani-Torof doesn't give any genetic evidence, so it's hard to see how he could prove his assertions. But by the same token, they can't be *disproved*. 
This is something that scientists are investigating. Genetic similarities between Jews and Palestinians is a hot topic, as is the degree of Arab ancestry for North Africans. This link  is not a very good link, but it's the best I can find. It seems to be a copy of an original article I can't find. Most of these investigations do seem to be showing that there is much more genetic continuity between pre-Arab conquest and post-Arab conquest populations than one might imagine. Zora 02:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Damned, youll be surprised at what length some editors are willing to go to erase any memory of Iran on these pages.--Zereshk 08:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speaking a Semitic language doesn't make you Semitic in descent 

message: Go look at the websites in relations to Iranian peoples such as the Kurds and various groups. Certain governments are trying to nurture seperatist elements in Iran. Israel, Britain, and America are the main sources. They are trying to make a Yugoslavia out of Iran where everyone fights each other.
:That's how you try to defeat an enemy when you cannot invade it like Iraq.--Zereshk 18:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: BE CAREFUL EVERYONE CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS ARE TRYING TO CAUSE CONFLICT BETWEEN IRANIANS

message: I note that Zereschk has chosen to put a picture of Ali Shamkhani as a typical Arab of Khuzestan. It is an act of provocation, since Shamkhani is hated by Ahwazi Arabs and all Iranians. If this is allowed, then should we also put Hitler as an example of Germans or Ahmadinejad as an example of Persians? If you want to persist in this game playing then I will seek to put Ahmadinejad's face on Persian culture article.--Ahwaz 07:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there was a similar problem in the Persian people article concerning the inclusion of Khomeini's photograph, and which was eventually replaced (with the Shah, which no one seemed to have any objection to). SouthernComfort 07:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is important to put the typical person of a culture, not politicians. I would not put Khomeini or Reza Pahlavi (which Shah? - there is no Shah any more) on an article on Persians and would expect others to do similar for Khuzestan Arabs. I object to Shamkhani's picture representing Arabs.--Ahwaz 07:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. SouthernComfort 08:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ali Shamkhani 

message: Mani, even Iranian sources admit that the province was called Arabistan until 1936, when Reza Shah changed the name back to Khuzestan. Iranian.com says,
: From the Safavid period (16th century) to the fall of the Qajar dynasty (1926) the province of Khuzestan had come to be known as 'Arabistan' 
I don't think there's any support for the rest of that quote, which says that the Arabization was completely due to migration. We have genetic testing results from an area like Lebanon, which show that that a population that speaks Arabic and defines itself as Arab is in fact mostly derived from the pre-Arab conquest population. There was a National Geographic article on it. I can't find that issue online -- it's probably pay only -- but here's one site that mentions the original study . So it's possible for an area to be Arabized but not genetically Arab. I dunno if any such studies have been done in Khuzestan -- or what they'd show. So it could be Arabization of an older population, or migration, or any combination thereof. We don't have the DATA, just people making politically-convenient assertions -- on both sides. Zora 08:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide a source for your edits, which by themselves are simply your own personal opinions. SouthernComfort 09:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW, I'm not talking about the name Arabistan which is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned that we went over a long time ago. SouthernComfort 09:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabistan 

message: You asked for it. I tried to remove the false and racialist information, but you put it back in. Now you need to provide the evidence to back it up. Where's the evidence that Arabs of Khuzestan are "Arab-descended". This is shameful. You'd guess that in the 21st century people are sophisticated and intelligent enough to think beyond homogeneous categorizing of people into "races", but I guess there will always be exceptions. To somehow suggest that the Arabs of Iran are of the same race as the Arabs of other countries such as Mauritania or Sudan is simply absurd. Some people here don't seem to understand the difference between a linguistic group and a racial group. Just because people speak the same language, it does not mean they're of the same race. That hold for both Iranians and Arabs. There's also no scientific way of categorizing people into races, so I suggest you drop this kind of language. AucamanTalk 11:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you calm down? Sources have been provided. The burden of proof is on you to counter the sources that have already been provided. No one is saying that they all Arabs are the same - different Arab groups are descended from many different tribes. Why don't you do some research instead of politicking the way you have been doing here and elsewhere? As I said, you want to "prove" that Arabs of Iran are only a linguistic group, then please provide a source to counter the sources already in the article which state that Arabs of Iran are also ethnically Arab. SouthernComfort 11:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW, you're the one who is also insisting that Persians are mixed with Arabs, Turkic people, and Mongols. So don't accuse others of racialism when you are far more obsessed with this sort of thing. Provide counter sources or give it up. You're already in deep enough waters - don't make things worse for yourself. SouthernComfort 11:43, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those who want to add new information are responsible for proving their addition. I'm just questioning the information in the article (they're not sourced). Stop removing the dispute tag. This is not going to look good on you. AucamanTalk 11:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? They are sourced. See the Origins section and stop adding the tag unless you have counter sources to provide. And if so, then provide them and stop wasting my time! SouthernComfort 11:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW, the term you object to has been in the article a very, very long time, so it was not "new information." Do a little research before you start shouting at people for no reason at all. Give it up. SouthernComfort 11:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Decided to change the intro paragraph, which was originally Zora's edit, since the sources already clarify everything to the reader. Now Aucaman, leave me alone. SouthernComfort 12:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Provide a source for adding Persians. And the article is sourced. Are you asking for an ArbCom or what? Provide counter sources but DO NOT claim that the article is factually inaccurate when it has been sourced. SouthernComfort 12:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No I just had a problem with the phrase "Arab-descended". The rest of the article seems well-sourced to me. As for the Persian addition, well the Arab of Khuzestan are constantly interacting with other Iranians. Does related mean "racially related"?? Why does everything here have a race factor to it? I'm going to take it out I guess. AucamanTalk 12:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, the only reason Zora originally put both "Arabic-speakers" and "Arab-descended" was for NPOV. And you have created an argument for nothing. Anyway, it's either we leave both out or keep both in. Both are POV by themeselves. SouthernComfort 12:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: And yes, the related box refers to ethnic/racial ties. That's why Azeris cannot be considered an Iranian people. SouthernComfort 12:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute

message: I wrote to Elton Daniel at Hawaii University regarding the issue of population statistics asking what his sources were for justifying the 500,000 figure for the Arabs of Al-Ahwaz. He says that he no longer has the notes that he used from the book he wrote, which he says was "for a popular series instead of an academic one with full documentation." So he had to rely in his memory regarding his data sources. He states that he "relied on the U.S. Congress Area Handbook for Iran for most statistical data ... The edition then available stated that the estimated Arab population in Iran was 530,000 in 1986." But he adds that there are a number of factors to bear in mind, including "a lack of any really relilable official statistics since around 1956 (which could conceivably be what the Area Handbook actually used), exactly how one defines "Arabs" in this context, whether those numbers were affected by population displacement because of the Iran-Iraq war, etc." He is not certain himself and is fully aware of the difficulties involved in estimating figures.
Given that Elton Daniel admits the problems with prooving the 500,000 figure, I request a second source to ensure that the 500,000 figure - the lower estimate for the Al-Ahwaz population - can be verified by academic source material. If it cannot, then I suggest the two to four million range stays.--Ahwaz 17:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population estimates 

message: This page has seen enough edit warring for a while, so I've protected it. Feel free to notify me (or another admin) when it looks like some kind of consensus has been reached on talk. William M. Connolley 20:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On whose orders? Some anonymous person yesterday repeatedly vandalised the page. Everyone else is having an above-board discussion and no matter how heated there has been some movement towards compromise. All I have done is raise a point based on an email from someone who is being quoted as a source. I have not even made the change I suggested but opened it up for discussion. So why move to bar anyone from making a change? This is idiotic behaviour by someone who has not been involved in any editing or writing here.--Ahwaz 20:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Zora is living out of Asia, out of Iran, She\He have not enough information about Iran and Iranians, apprantly She\He hate Persians, and I think Zora is a racist. 
User "Ahwaz" is Arab, so naturally, he believes that the Persian gulf + Kish & Gheshm Island + Little and Big Tonb Islands +  Abomosa Islands + Khouzestan province + Bushehr province and even further more Spain are the Arabs' property. 
The fact is that Khouzestan is the most important province of Iran.
because:
* contains 84% of oil and 70% of gas resources of Iran.
* providing 2/3 of Iran's electricity power.
* contains 3/4 useful water of Iran.
* providing near 3/10 players of national teams(such as football, golf, volleyball, etc).
* historically is the oldest part of Iran.
* Daniel, the Jew prophet 's tomb is in khouzestan.
* the first and the oldest university city was built in khouzestan.
* first dams were built by Persians 25 cen. ago in khouzestan.
* Susa(shoosh) was Achamanids' capital for more than 200 years, and also was the capital of some other empires before and after Achamanids.
and and and
Today Khouzestan have near 6 millions of Iran's population and Arabs and Iranian-Arabs are less than 2 millions. 
There's no any effect of construction by the Arabs, since 1400 years ago Arabs always destroyed all things.
in Sassanid empire Ahvaz(Hormoz-Ardeshir in that times) was one the most prosperous cities of Iran, but what about present Ahvaz?
Arabs of Khouzestan do not like to respect anything, anybody, but they believe all the world must respect them.
Every Arab family have at least 7 children in order to outbreeding Iranians from Khouzestan.
About 83% of female Arabs are illitrated and this is because of that Arab men are too zealous about their wives.
1/4 of Arab men prevent their wives from delivering baby in hospital, they believe that male doctor are "na mahram" (see Islamic laws) to their wives. and this causes high death rate among female Arabs.
More than 18% of male Arabs have 2 or more wives.
55% of Arabs of Khouzestan are vilagers.
Khouzestan state TV plays Arabic programs 2 hours a day (=1/5 of daily programs).
Since 1000 A.D. Arabic is teaching in all the Iranian schools.
Six-most popular names in Iran are > Mohamad. Ali. Reza. MohamadReza. Hussein. Hasan. which are all Arabic(Semetic) names
more than 500,000 of Iranians died in war with an Arabic country(Eraq) and God know how many died in 600 a.d. invasion.
Arabs of khouzestan believe that Zoroastrians worship fire.
Arabs of khouzestan believe that all the languages (not 99%! they believe in 100%) are derived from Arabic.
They also believe that Hafez, Ebne Sina, and lots of other Iranian scientist were absolutely Arabs, even they believe that Prof. Hessabi was Arab.
Vahabi Arabs believe that killing 6 shi'it can bring them to heaven.
They also call Persian gulf, "al-khalij al-arabi" and also call Aravand river, "al-shat al-arabi".
You can even see "be'roh be'dam saddam..." grafittis in khozestan, which is means they support saddam by their lifes by their bloods. They have also hanged the pictures of saddam hussein in their houses to show their loyality to saddam. I saw even some of Arabs have saddam's photos in their wallets!
They also talking about Regaining Spain and even outbreeding Frenchs from france.
more than 90% of thieves and 70% of murders in Khouzestan are doing by the Arabs.
After Arab's terrorist attacks last year, State ministry[vezarate keshvar] and Security ministry[vezarate etelat] of Iran decided to renew their policies about non-Arabs of khouzestan and let non-Arabs to get more power and control Arabs, for example they want to encourage khouzestani peolpe who migrated to out of khouzestan during war to back to khouzestan. They also started a series of sudden home-to-home searchs and they found more than 300,000 illegal weapons (of any kind pistol, klashinkov, M3, RPG7, Bazooka, shotgun ... )
Arabs of khouzestan also provide weapons for smugglers in east of Iran
at first look they seems very happy, friendly and warm.
But, unfortunately, Arabs of Khouzestan are one of the most dangerous ethnic\language minorities.
at top of this page Zora mentioned that Persians and Arabs are one only their culture and language is different, but the fact is very far from her\his beliefs. Most of khouzestanis can recognize Arabs from non-Arabs in one look.
I think the subject of talk is not important for Zora; Zora only want to be a premenant anti-Persian.
That's all, "becharkh ta becharkhim... haghighat taghir napazireh"
"You wanna play? so we play too ... the facts are not changeable"
Sasanjan 05:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some bare facts 

message: Please Sign in your name when contributing so we can know who is saying what.--Zereshk 22:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please sign

message: "The population of Arabs is around 2,000,000 and they are largely resident in southwestern Iran on the eastern shore of the Persian Gulf. The majority are Shii Muslims and live in Khuzestan. They have largely stood firmly behind the revolutionary government since 1979 and were not swayed by Saddam Hussein’s calls to liberate themselves from Persian rule during the Iran-Iraq war. However, during just two years in the mid-1990s in accordance to Human Rights Watch, “more than 180 Iranian Arabs have been detained and prosecuted on charges of espionage for Iraq or other Persian Gulf Arab states. … Arab activists claim that the attitude of the present government does not differ from that of the previous regime in its efforts to stamp out Arab culture. There is no Arabic-language newspaper dealing with domestic issues in Khuzestan … Arabic is not taught in elementary schools, and the Arabic teaching in secondary schools focuses exclusively on religious texts. The governor of Khuzestan is not an Arab, and very few high-ranking government officials are from an Arab background.”25 Suspicion and discrimination therefore remains against the Arabs, despite what may be considered as a surprising level of loyalty by the Arabs for the revolutionary regime." 
:: Well fromt he offset that information is bogus and is given by Arab separatist to UNHCHR and just repeared by them.  All Iranians have to learn Arabic from elementary school and it is part of Konkoor (nationwide acceptance exams for Universities).  As per high-ranking officials, their numbers reflect the density of Arabs very well.   Arabic language newspapers and TV also exists in Khuzestan.  Also the number 2 million would make Arabs a minority since about 20% of these live outside of Khuzestan.  Again I think the best way to approach this is provincial by provincial analysis --Ali doostzadeh 00:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. I also couldnt beleive that the UNHCHR would be making such false claims. That's why I had to go to the trouble of actually posting links to the scanned pages of Arabic textbooks taught in schools in Iran:  And theyre not Quranic Arabic, as can be clearly seen. :) Point is, if the UNHCHR can make such false claims, then God help us all. Lying has become so easy nowadays.--Zereshk 02:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually this report is not by the UNCHR, but was presented to them by the author (see below). The report does not reflect the opinions or stance of the UNCHR (as clarified in the actual report itself). SouthernComfort 05:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arab population numbers from UNCHR

message: that map is too old and inaccurate ... Arabs are speard to Kohgiloye ?! Arabs are mostly live in Susanguerd, Ahvaz, Khorramshahr and Hoveizeh.Sasanjan 08:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map is too old 

message: This page has been protected for the past three months (!!!). No discussion has occurred on the issues in the past two months on the talk page. Are the issues being resolved and the disputed parties moving towards consensus? If there are no objections, I will request unprotection. Calwatch 00:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I suggested on my talk page, I suggest that the parties move towards mediation, editing a consensus version in someone's userspace, or something similar. Three months is a really really long time for protection. Has anyone tried to ask for mediation? A straw poll? See WP:DR and WP:MEDCABAL for some intermediate steps should you decide that mediation is not necessary. I will check back in a week to see if things have progressed. Calwatch 05:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request unprotection?