Talk:LGBT movements/Archive 1

message: On the Quebec talk page, DW wrote:
:My point is that many Wikipedia articles have references to gay rights etc. when the matter in the vast majority of cases is irrelevant to the facts/knowledge being passed on.
DW, would you please give some examples of irrelevant references to gay rights in Wikipedia articles? If I agree that they are irrelevant, I will gladly delete them. I don't want gratuitous promotion of homosexuality, any more than the atheist or other non-Christian contributors want gratuitous promotion of religion. --Ed Poor
::Could somebody add some fact about gay right movement in other places? Like that in Europe? --Gboy 17:52, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Gay rights in other articles

message: I parented this article under :Category:LGBT civil rights and moved all the category memberships of this article to that category.  I'm mostly just trying to cut down on clutter...there's no particular need for this article to be in 2 top-level-ish LGBT categories in addition to the obvious subcategory of each of them. Redoing edit in the hopes that this will seem sensible after being explained.Beland 03:26, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category change 

message: I would like to bring your attention to an active poll in the George W. Bush talk page.
*Talk:George W. Bush#Sentence Poll - Poll/survey on whether or not the fact that Bush is the "first Republican to appoint an openly gay man" to his administration. Pro says it is a relevant fact that shows Bush is making strides toward inclusiveness, con says given the hundreds, even thousands of appointments a president makes, one is insignificant. Lengthy discussion is above the poll.
If you have an opinion on this matter, please feel free to vote as to your opinon. Thanks. :) Sdauson 21:19, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: George W. Bush Poll

message: Voyager640 just added the following :
::Many of these views have been taking up by mainstream institutions such as government, professional organizations, and many parts of the non-profit sector. This is due to increasing scientific evidence in support. Opponents of these views, however, believe that these mainstream institutions have succumbed to political pressure rather than relying on a rational examination of the facts. This may be true but it needs some degree of sourcing or else it's just making an accusation against them. MPS 18:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "have weight"?  -Seth Mahoney 02:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  succumb to political pressure

message: I am proposing to move the various sections dealing with US, UK, etc. to new separate articles for each of those countries entitled "Gay rights in the United States" etc, and replace the removed text with a link to the "Gay rights by Country" category. Does anybody have any objections?
Wuzzy 20:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move countries to new separate articles? 

message: I am rewriting the section on the US gay rights movement, and will be using references. Anybody object to the use of footnotes?
Wuzzy 02:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should we use footnotes? 

message: Editor poll:  Would it be worthwhile to add a section to the article on notable (ie politicians, celebrities, artists, etc) supporters of the gay rights movement?  Most articles on other political and social movements make mention of notable supporters, speakers, and thinkers, while this one seems to mention practically no one.  I can think of several just off the top of my head.  Shouldn't they be included?  Replies in this section please.  Thanks,  -Kasreyn 06:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree. However, they should have had a worldwide influence, since this is a worldwide article, and the mention should be brief (one paragraph at most per person) and include a wikilink  to a separate article on each person for the full treatment. On the other hand, I would not want lists, since they become easily corrupted through vandalism, and are not sourced. Those who have had an influence only in a few countries should be mentioned in the "Gay rights in..." article about their country. I think that the main "Gay Rights" article should provide a broad overview that can nevertheless be read in one sitting. Since the topic is so broad, controversial and evolving, ihe article could easily become unwieldly, as it was before much of its content was moved into "Gay rights in..." articles.  Wuzzy 10:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems like an overly strict requirement.  Is there even a majority of countries, by population, that even have gay rights movements?  If not, then it would be impossible to meet that requirement.  -Kasreyn 10:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are probably gay rights movements in most countries of the world, though they are not well known, and certainly the status of gay rights varies tremendously from country to country, and even within countries. See :Category:Gay rights by country. It is easier to focus on just one country, which is why there are separate articles, but there also needs to be a worldwide overview. However, this is very challenging because the movement is often underground, suppressed by governments, shunned by mainstream media, and divided by language and other barriers. Wikipedia might help remedy that. I think that there would be relatively few individuals who would have had a world wide influence. Mostly they would be writers and academics, since their work crosses borders eventually. Magnus Hirschfeld is an old example. There are a very few worldwide organizations too. Wuzzy 10:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: In the interest of NPOV, I think there should also be a comparable list of considerably influential individuals who dedicate at least some of their time, energy or funds to fighting the gay rights movement. Rexmorgan 21:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supporters 

message: Anyone got this book: We Are Everywhere: A Historical Sourcebook of Gay and Lesbian Politics? Apparently, on pages 40-43, it describes an incident in 1790 in France where "groups of militant "sodomite-citizens" demand freedom and recognition in petitions addressed to the National Assembly, the governing body of the French Revolution."
The complete reference is:
: "We Are Everywhere: A Historical Sourcebook of Gay and Lesbian Politics", editors Mark Blasius and Shane Phelan. New York: Routledge. 1997. 
I think the historical document is:
:Charles, Marquis de Villette, High Commander of the Order. "The Children of Sodom Before the National Assembly or Delegation of the Order of the Cuff Before the Representatives of All Other Orders of All Sixty Districts of Paris and Versailles, 1790.
I'd be interested to know the story. There seem to be other incidents pre-dating Ulrichs:
*1725: Customers at a London "molly house" fight off a police raid in what is perhaps the first documented example of a gay male protest against Law enforcement.
*1833, London: Captain Nicholas Nicholls, 50, is sentenced to death on a charge of Sodomy. His sentence is protested by an anonymous poet who writes one of the earliest works of protest against the persecution of same-sex love:
:Whence spring these inclinations, rank and strong?
:And harming no one, wherefore call them wrong?
*1836: Switzerland: Heinrich Hoessli publishes the first volume of Eros: Die Mannerliebe der Griechen ("Eros: The Love Between Men of the Greeks"), a historical survey and defense of same-sex love and one of the first books to call for social tolerance of persons drawn to it.
ntennis 05:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-history of "gay rights"? 

message: The talk page was tagged. I moved the tag to the article. How is this article limited in geographic scope? Hyacinth 10:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't put the tag there but to be honest that was my impression too when I came across this article a few days ago. The article started with a small section on the early "gay rights" movement in Germany, then after that, exclusively referred to US for the rest of the article. I chucked in some British references, but it really could do with a more global view. Some of the US info may have to be moved to the "Gay rights in the US" article to make room! I haven't been watching this article so forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like all the stuff on other countries has been farmed off to the regional articles, leaving the US stuff to dominate this page. Maybe a recognition that "gay rights" are more established in some countries than others, and "gays" have it tough in Zimbabwe and Iran would be useful? Personally (and this is an enormous can of worms), I reckon that the term "gay" is a concept with a "western world" bias. Could we include, for instance, the political organising of Hijras in India on a "gay rights" page? ntennis 14:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be right about Oscar Wilde. He might have had a lasting influence on the worldwide movement. There is doubtless more history than what what is now in the article. Write it if you can. Sources would be appreciated. Wuzzy 23:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: OK i did another fairly quick overhaul of the history section to try to broaden the geographic scope a bit. Will return to add refs and polish it up tmw; gotta run! :) ntennis 04:54, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Limited geographic scope