Talk:Kosovo/Archive 9

message: There is a complete lack of references to the treasures of Kosovo - namely the Holy Orhtodox Monestaries see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoki_De%C4%8Dani_monastery  as an example.
There needs to be a main section that talks about the monestaries and their value to Christianity and humanity as a whole. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.225.80.238  (talk • contribs) 23:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I added list of districts and cities here with the purpose to IMPROVE article, not to start new revert war. The names are written in both, Albanian and Serbian, and the name order is that used by UNMIK. So, if somebody see problem with that, he should discuss that problem here. It must be noted that state of Serbia recognized UNMIK and accepted civil UNMIK rule over Kosovo, thus, I do not see reason for revert war here. Even when Milošević was in power Albanian was an official language in Kosovo. PANONIAN (talk) 03:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, about the revert war part, Panonian. People should learn to discuss more here. AS of the official language in Kosovo, I must remind you that during Milosevic everything was in Cyrillic alphabet in Kosovo, including ID's, labels on shops, buses, administration, everything. But that is a black part of the history, not worth comparing to. Regards, Ilir pz 11:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably because Kosovo is/was part of Yugoslavia at the time and Serbian in Cyrillic was the official language. I don't know, but I guess the as Albanian population boycotted everything Serbian then buses etc labelled in Cyrillic wasn't a self-imposed disadvantage. Phil 13:46, 01 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Phildav76, a clarification: in Kosovo before Milosevic's apartheid was installed, Albanian, Serbian AND Turkish were the three official languages. The abolition of Albanian and Turkish were something new introduced by the one I mentioned above, not because Albanians boycotted anything. That was just one of the many other tools that regime used to oppress the majority of Kosovo's population. ilir_pz 16:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is okay to spread propaganda (e.g. apartheid) but when you end up believing your own propaganda, that is where the danger is. Phil 23:38, 01 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I was wondering about one thing today. What do you guys/girls think will happen with 1244 resolution, once (eventually) Montenegro gets recognized? Does it make sense to say that "now Serbia takes over what is left from Former Yugoslavia and the responsibilities of that resolution"? Seems like we might have to do major updating on those parts soon, where Serbia and Montenegro is mentioned as a successor of FRY, and Kosovo a de-jure part of it. Very curious how this evolves. Not that the Montenegro's independence affects Kosovo'spath to independence, but anyways it would be welcome. Ilir pz 11:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Let us wait and see :) So next will be "Serbia is a successor of FRY"? after Montengro is gone from that federation?? This resolution is getting funnier and funnier. Ilir pz 12:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that is not the point. S&M is the same as FRY. Kosovo is not a province of S&M but a province of Serbia anyway. Regards, --Asterion talk to me 14:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I understand your point. As of now Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, whose status is still not defined anyways. That resolution is for a couple of months more. Regards, Ilir pz 14:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is weird, SCG can't be the successor of FRJ. It's the successor of SFRJ (legally) - a state cannot be a successor of itself. Are youy suggesting that the Republic of Holland (declared with the Hague Manifesto of 1581) is not the successof of the United Dutch Provinces that existed there since 1576? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Let me just correct a mistake there -- FRY = SCG, but FRY (and therefore also SCG) is *not* the successor to the SFRY. SCG had to reapply for UN membership; had it been recognised as the legal successor to the SFRY, it would have simply taken its seat. —Nightstallion (?) 21:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are confusing Nightstallion's words. Resolution 1244 is relevant to FRY, which is the same as saying SCG. Regards, --Asterion talk to me 18:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This becoming STUPID! [sic] 

message: History of Kosovo In "Travels in European Turkey" (London, 1850): E. Spencer gives an account of the Illyrian Empire:
::...The Illyrians founded an immense empire extending from Epirus ... to the Danube and the Black Sea and comprehending the whole of the maritime coast of Hungary to Venice and Triest, with Istria, Carnolia, Carinthia, Styria, and Friuli... History and tradition affords us many interesting details of the battles of the Illyrians with the ancient Greeks and the Romans... Napoleon was well versed in the history of these people when he flattered their national pride...(Vol. I, pp. 93-94)
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As indicated by E. Spencer, the Illyrians fought, in fact, for a long time against the Romans, who eventually conquered the whole of Illyria in A.D. 9. Many Illyrian soldiers, who susbsequently served in the Roman army rose to high positions. Some became emperors and viceroys: Claudius II, Aurelian, Probus, Diocletian, Maximilian, Constantius, Valens, and Valentinian. Mention should also be made of Saint Jerome, one of the greatest scholars of his time. The Illyrians gave to Byzantium three of its greatest emperors: Constantine, who officially accepted Christianity; Justinius, who built Saint Sophia; and Justinianus, famous for his Code of Laws. The philologist Paul Kretschmer went so far as to maintain that the Illyrians actually founded Byzantium.
:Proud of what they considered their heritage (see E. Spencer, Travels... I, p. 94), the South Slavs became eager to recreate ancient Illyria by forming a union among themselves.
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Albania was at that time a domain of the Turkish Empire comprising four vilayets or provinces: Shkodra - which included the Dukagjini Plateau (Metohija), Monastir (presently Bitolja), Janina, and Shkup (Skopje), presently in Macedonia. This latter province was more readily called Kosova by the Turks in memory of the victory of a battle on the Plain of Kossovo, the "Campo dei Merli" of old Venetian maps. The capital of this province had at times been Priština.6
:6. According to A. Boue, the "battles" that took place were not fought on the plain, but on its "plates-formes" at Gasimestan, "one and a half hours north of Pristina;" the name of Kossovo, he explained, was applied later to the Plain of Sitnica and the surrounding territory (A. Boue, op. cit., I, p. 142).
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Owing to the efforts of the committee headed by A. Frasheri,7 80 delegates representing all four provinces convened at the city of Prizren, in the Vilayet of Shkup (Kosova) in June 1878, three days prior to the opening of the Congress of Berlin, whose purpose was to reconsider the decision reached by San Stefano's preliminary Peace Treaty. The assembly of these delegates was henceforth called The League of Prizren. Its task was to defend Albania's rights.
Kosova became thus for the Albanians the center of their resistance and they have ever since regarded this territory as a symbol of their struggle for independence.
:7. An Albanian patriot of broad culture (1839-1894). His younger brother, Sami, wrote in Turkish as well as in Albanian. Greatly admired for his Universal Dictionary of History and Geography (a six-volume encyclopedia) and for other writings, he is considered in Turkey as one of its most prominent poets. Having fought for Albania’s rights, he spent five years in prison. The sec.ond of the three brothers, Naim, is the most popular South Albanian poet.
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As soon as the Serbs occupied the ceded territories, the Albanians were asked to evacuate them. With respect to the Albanians inhabiting those areas, Mr. Gould, Consul of Great Britain in Belgrade, wrote to the Marquis of Salisbury, Secretary of the Foreign Office of Great Britain, on Nov. 26, 1878:
I hear that the Servian Government has behaved with great and unnecessary harshness, not to say cruelty, toward the Albanians in the recently ceded districts. If my information is correct, and I have every reason to believe it to be so, the peaceful and industrious inhabitants of over 100 Albanian villages in the Toplitza and Vranja Valley were ruthlessly driven forth from their homesteads by the Servians in the early part of this year. These wretched people have ever since been wandering about in a starving condition in the wild country beyond the Servian frontier. They have not been allowed to gather in their crops on their own lands, which were reaped by the Servian soldiery... I ... casually stated to his Excellency (Ristic) that these facts had come to my knowledge, and that should they be confirmed I felt certain Her Majesty's Government and the majority of the Great Powers would call the Servian Government to account, and insist upon strict justice being done to these unfortunate people, whose only crime was their belonging to an alien race and another creed...10
:10. EM., Accounts and Papers (38); 1878-9; LXXIX 79, 574-575. Letter reproduced by Rizaj in op. cit. pp. 24 1-242.
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As to the number of the Albanians inhabiting those territories, various statistics and extant documents give contradictory figures. According to a note of the administrative divisions dating from 1873, the district of the Sandjak of Niš had about 100 000 Albanians. As regards the number of refugees, the figures given by Prof. J. Cvijic for those who settled in Kosova is 30 000, that furnished by English documents, 100 000. According to Turkish sources, the number of the Albanians who were forced to leave the region amounted to 300 000.
On June 3, 1978, Rilindja (p.7), published a letter addressed by these miserable people (who were deprived of all means and many of whom were sick) to the European Powers requesting that at least a commission be set up to look into their serious problem.11
Leaving these helpless refugees to their sad fate, the Serbs colonized the region with astounding rapidity. Referring to the colonization of the area by the Serbs, V. Cubrilovic stated in his "Memorandum" (about which more will be told later) that "Toplica and Kosanica, once Albanian regions of ill-repute, gave Serbia the finest regiment in the wars of 1912-1918".
:11. For the data concerning the Albanians of these territories, see E. PlIana, "Les raisons et Ia maniere de Ia migration des refugies albanais du territoire du Sandjak de Nish a Kosova (1877-1878)," Gjurmime Albanologjike IX 1979, Prishtine, 1980, pp. 129-156. Cf. also R. MarmullakuAlbania and the Albanians , London, 1975, p. 24 (does not contain details).
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The Great Powers eventually left the Balkans in the hands of Austria and Russia. The influence of the latter, however, grew stronger as time went by.
In regard to Kosova, Russia sent priests to Serbian monasteries situated in the region exalting, together with the Orthodox faith, heroes and deeds pertaining to Serbian legends.18 They opened schools which were hotbeds of Slav propaganda. Clearly, her purpose was to colonize the province where the Serbs were but an insignificant minority.
The West knew little at that time about the Balkan states. In fact, the ignorance was such that some missionaries who went to Macedonia to support the Bulgarian cause confessed that formerly they had been ignorant of the fact that there were Bulgarians in the Peninsula; they had thought that only Greeks lived there. Practically nothing was known, of course, relative to the Albanians; those unfamiliar with the question could be told anything. Thus, when two Russian consuls in Kosova and Monastir were killed by Albanians (who acted in self-defense), these acts were described as being committed by 'Moslem fanatics'. The two propaganda agents were presented as martyrs; their funerals were grandiose. Since Christianity was equated with civilization and Islam with backwardness, the Christians were regarded as the allies of the Great Powers. Thus the Catholic Albanians who are animated by patriotic feelings were ignored by design. The Albanians were depicted merely as backward Moslems and as allies of the Turks.
:18. "It seemed sheer folly to make a large and costly Serb theological school in a Moslem Albanian town and to import masters and students, when funds are so urgently needed to develop free Serb land" (ME. Durham,High Albania, London, 1909, p. 275). Even E. Noel-Buxton, of the Balkan Committee, whose attitude was pro-Slav, had to admit that "The spirit of chauvinism is but thinly veiled under the garb of churchmanship. Religion is degraded to the level of pretext for exciting national zeal" (Noel-Buxton, op. cit. p. 50).
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Many books and articles were published by the South Slavs for the purpose of showing the ferocity of the Albanians, their backwardness, their despicable behavior, their lack of discipline, etc. Vladan Djordjevic, former Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Serbia, went even so far as to claim that until "as late as the 19th century", there had been Albanians with tail in their rear! Djordjevic even referred the reader to J.G. Von Hahn's scholarly work, Albanesische Studien, where, he asserted, he had found the information.19
19. V. Djordjevic,Les Albanais et les Grandes Puissances, 1913 p. 8. No information of this kind is contained in von Hahn’s work.
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The purpose of all these writings was, of course, to draw a picture that gives to the non-specialist a very poor idea of the Albanians so that these, by dint of being despised by others may, in their innermost soul, start to despise themselves.20
:20. According to Felix Adler, "The vice of vices is when we are held cheap by others sod then in our innermost soul start to think cheaply of ourselves." Protic, Gopcevic, Zupanic, Tomic, Djordjevic are some of the Slav authors who criticized the Albanians in a particularly uncivil way. Many others may be cited.
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To be sure, there are established scholars - be they geographers, historians, anthropologists, or serious travelers and explorers - who have expressed opinions of a very different kind: H.N. Brailsford went even so far as to maintain that "from Byron's day downward it would be hard to find a Western European who has learned to know the Albanians without admiring them" (The New Republic, March 1, 1919). In fact those who had nice words on behalf of the Albanians were so numerous that the Serb S. Protic (Balkanicus) considered the tendency to praise the Albanians as highly ethical individuals and to describe them as "unusually gifted", to have become a fashion.21
:21. 5. Protic,Das Albanesische Problem und die Beziehungen zwischen Oestereich- Ungarn, Leipzig, 1913, p. 19.
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The fact remains, however, that the latter writings were not accessible to many. The influential French daily Le Temps, published merely articles favoring the Slavs and Greeks, for France was then Russia's ally.22
:22. "Le journal parisien Le Temps avait mis ses colonnes a Ia disposition de ces detracteurs comme il les avait ouvertes pour les Grecs.. .," — "The Parisian daily Le Temps was at the disposal of these calumniators [i.e., of the Slays] as it was also at the disposal of the Greeks (Lumo Skendo, Albanais et Slaves, Lausanne, 1919, p. 3).
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In order to achieve national unity with a delimited territory, the League had requested the Porte, in July 1878, to turn Albania into one vilayet. The request had not been granted. As a consequence, the Albanians, under their gallant leader Isa Boletini, a native of Kosova, openly took a stand against the Turks. All their activities were centered in the Kosova region, which became the cradle of their national struggle and thus acquired a special meaning for them.23
In 1912, when the Albanians seized Shkup (Skopje) and were about to enter Monastir (Bitolja), the Turks called a truce and granted them autonomy uniting the vilayets of Shkodra, Janina, Kosova, and part of Monastir. As a result of this Albanian victory, the government of the chauvinistic Young Turks Party was overthrown. The weakness of Turkey became thus evident.
The Albanians had administered a heavy blow to the Turks and rightly hoped for approval and sympathy, for, as Lord Goschen had rightly pointed out back in 1880, if the Turks lost Albania, they would lose their cause in Europe. Instead, the Albanian victory triggered the Balkan wars, the purpose of which was the annexation of Albanian-inhabited territories that were under Turkish rule.
At that time, Montenegro had been free from Ottoman rule for over forty years; Serbia and Greece for over eighty. These states, being independent, had their regular armies. When attacked on all sides (by the Greeks, the Montenegrins, and, of course, by the Serbs, who entered Kosova), the Albanians, aware of the great danger, hastened to raise their flag and declared their neutrality.
:23. SeeR. Marmullaku Albania and the Albanians, Hurst and Co., London, 1975, pp. 23-24.
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The atrocities perpetrated by the Serbo-Montenegrins during the Balkan wars on the Albanian population were acknowledged by the Serbian socialist Dimitrije Tucovic (1881-1914) in his book Srbija i Albanija (published in 1946):
The bourgeois clamored for a merciless extermination and the army executed the orders. The Albanian villages, from which the people had made a timely flight, were burned down. There were at the same time barbaric crematoria in which hundreds of women and children were burned alive...24
:24. Cited by R. Marmullaku, op. cit., p. 137.
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Brutalities committed by the Serbo-Montenegrins are also described in the Carnegie report. They may be best summed up in two short paragraphs taken from Mary Edith Durham's Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle (1920):
No Turks ever treated Armenians worse than did the two Serb peoples treat the Albanians in the name of the Holy Orthodox Church (p.235).25
:25. Cf. also Aubrey Herbert, M.P.: "Very little was known about Albania. The general opinion was that the Albanians were another branch of the Armenian family, and indeed, as far as massacres were concerned, this was most understandable . . ." (A. Herbert, Ben Kenilim,
:London, 1924, P. 24). According to ME. Durham, the slaughters of the Armenians were nothing compared to those of the Albanians: "The massacres of Adana and the resultant misery pale before the scarlet horrors committed wholesale in cold blood by the so-called followers of Christ" (Durham, Struggle for Scutari, London, 1914, p. 303).
:About these slaughters see 1. Albaniens Golgotha, Anklageacten gegen die Vernichter des Albanervolkes, gesammelt und herausgegeben von L. Freundlich, Vienna, 1913. — 2. Enquete dans les Balkans, Rapport de Ia Commission d’enquete de Ia Dotation Carnegie pour Ia Paix internationale, Paris, 1914.
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As for the Balkan Slav and his vaunted Christianity, it seems to me all civilization should rise and restrain him from further brutality (p.238).26
:26. What surprised ME. Durham quite specially was the religious fanaticism of the Serbs:
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"It was not astonishing that the Serbs hated Islam, but that they should fiercely hate every other Christian church, I had not expected. The Catholic was hated the most." According to Durham, the Moslem was to the Serbs "a lesser evil than the Catholic," (Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, London, 1920, p. 52). "The hatred of the Serb Orthodox for the Catholics was shown in 1913 in the Balkan war, when the Montenegrin troops, whose object was said to be to liberate Christians, fell upon the little church of Mazreku, trampled the Host underfoot, dressed up in the priestly vestments, danced about, and amused themselves by cutting noses from images of the saints and firing bullets into the crufix" (Some Tribal Origins ... p. 28).
In 1913, a number of soldiers led by a bandit clad as an Orthodox priest stripped and bayonetted to death Luigj Palici, an Albanian Franciscan from Gjakova, because he refused to cross himself in the Orthodox manner. "Austria intervened sharply. Had she not done so, in the words of a Catholic refugee, there would not have been a Catholic left" (E.C. Helmreich, The Diplomacy of the Balkan Wars, Harvard U.P., 1938, p. 317).
In 1919, a treaty concerning minorities was signed at Saint-Germain-en- Laye whereby the Yugoslav Government pledged to protect all citizens without discrimination as to race, nationality, and creed. Yet the persecutions against the Catholic Kosovars continued. Mother Teresa’s father, a native of Shkup (Skopje), and a noted Albanian patriot, was poisoned by the Serbs, as reported by his son Lazer Bojaxhiu in an interview published in Gente (Dec. 1979 andJan. 1980). Mother Teresa’s family was obliged to move to Tirana, where her mother and sister died (the former in 1974; the latter in 1976).
In 1929, was executed Father Shtjefen Gjecovi, a Franciscan, greatly respected by all the Albanians for his erudition and his righteousness. As a result, on May 5, 1930, three Catholic priests, obliged to leave the region, addressed the "League of Nations" a memorandum concerning the tragic plight of the Albanians in Yugoslavia (see H. Kokalari, Kosova, Rome, 1962, p. 165).
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It should be reiterated that the unbelievable massacres were in no way committed as a result of a struggle between Christians and Moslems, as it was at that time believed by Gladstone and stressed in his speeches.27 They were solely motivated by the desire to decimate the Albanian race. Not only Kosova was coveted, but all of North Albania
:27. Cf. E. Noel-Buxton: "Mr. Gladstone said, the Christian, who retained his faith at the price of slavery, when by recanting he could obtain every favour, is entitled to the name of martyr and to him Europe owes the gratitude" (op. cit., p. 27).— That the conversions of the Albanians would be taken as a pretext to expand territory was already pointed out by A. Boue who was for the freedom of all nations and had little respect for those who "for sheer purposes of invasion consider themselves chosen by God to exterminate the Moslems and make people happy." (". . . chez ceux, qui s’intitulent, par pure politique d’envahissement, les elus du Tres-Haut pour l’extermination des Musulmans et le bonheur du genre humain," Boue, Recueil d’itineraires dans Ia Torquie dEurope, 1854, I, "Avant-Propos."
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During World War I, Albania's neutrality was not respected and mass massacres continued.
At the turn of the century, the reports of the Ohio journalist J.A.Mac Cahan concerning the Bulgarian uprising, had shocked the West; as known, Russia used these accounts as a pretext to march against the Turks. By contrast, the Albanian cause did not benefit from the Carnegie report, nor by the frequent and moving declarations of philanthropists and journalists who, like M.E. Durham, were eyewitnesses to mass massacres of women and children, simply because it was not in the interest of the Great Powers to take Albania's defense.28
:28. No study is available on ME. Durham, except for that of Sh. Shaqiri, "ME. Durham dhe Shqiptar&,"Nentori, Oct. 1981, pp. 149-164. A talented painter and writer,a good historian and an excellent anthropologist (her diaries and other papers are available at the "Royal Anthropological Institute of Gr. Br. and Ireland," London, of which she was a member and to whose journal, Man, she contributed many articles), she also worked as a volunteer in Montenegrin hospitals as well as for the "Macedonia Relief Fund." Her first book was devoted to the Serbs (Through the Land of the Serbs, London, 1904). But, as pointed out by Aubrey Herbert, it was only their revolting cruelty that turned her affection into dislike" (A. Herbert, Ben Kendim , p. 220). Her later attitude toward the Serbo-Montenegrins is conveyed by a passage contained in Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle: "On arriving in London I packed up the Gold Medal given me by King Nikola and returned it to him stating that I had often expressed surprise at persons, who accepted decorations from Abdul Hamid, and that now I knew that he and his subjects were even more cruel than the Turk, I would not keep his blood-stained medal any longer. I communicated this to the English and Austrian press. The order of Saint Sava given me by King Petar of Serbia, I decided to keep a little longer till some pecularly flagrant case" (p. 25).
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The well-known Swiss geographer H. Hauser, rightly pointed out that the principle of nationality, like all other principles, cannot be applied in a strict and equitable manner given the fact that most places constitute, with respect to the population inhabiting them, a mosaic.29
29. H. Hauser, "Le principe des nationalites," (30-page pamphlet, reprint fromRevuepolitique internationale, March-April, 1916). See also A. van Gennep,Traite des nationalites, 1922, p. 24.
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In 1878, Lord Goschen and Lord Fitzmaurice had been in favor of a large Albania comprising the Albanian-inhabited territories of the four vilayets.30 But, at the Congress of Berlin it was decided -as already pointed out - that territories indisputably Albanian be handed over to Montenegro and to Serbia. Places connected with Albanian history and national pride, like Janina, Arta, Preveza, were allotted to the Greeks, who within a relatively short period of time were to exterminate the overwhelming Albanian population inhabiting them. No system of guarantees was applied. Albanians, numbering hundreds of thousands were to be forcibly sent to Turkey.
The manner in which Albanian territories were ceded to neighboring states clearly indicates how arbitrary decisions that make history may be. And one cannot but agree with Mircea Eliade (The Myth of the Eternal Return), who, with respect to the theory that valorizes historical events, to which the 19th century attached so much importance, pertinently remarked that such a theory could have been established only by thinkers who know nothing about injustices and miseries caused by history.
:30. A. Herbert, op. cit., p. 216 and M.E. Durham, Twenty-Years p. 83.
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Albanian population lived, remained outside the borders assigned to her.31 As Lord Fitzsimmons rightly remarked, "Albania was to start her career as a state mutilated from her birth". Indeed, as a nation humiliated in her pride, she had no place among her sister nations. She was doomed to poverty, bitterness, and complete isolation.
In regard to Kosova, a territory where Albanians displayed their most important activities for the independence of their nation and a region which, as some scholars contend, is the cradle of the Albanian people, the principles of ethnicity and self determination were not observed. Nor had they been taken into account when districts indisputably Albanian had been allotted to Montenegro and Serbia by the Treaty of Berlin. At that time, the principle of history had been ignored as well.
:31. The tragic fate of many of these Albanians, who remained outside the borders assigned to the state of Albania, was to populate Asia Minor. As indicated (p. 10), the guarantees stipulated by the Treaty of Berlin were not honored by Serbia. Likewise, over 300,000 Albanians inhabiting the regions ceded to Greece were expelled by the Greek Government and obliged to settle in Turkey as a result of an exchange treaty of the Turkish and the Greek Governments (see, among others, A.A. Pallis, "The exchange of populations in the Balkans," Nineteenth Century, March, 1925, pp. 376-387). Pallis begins his article by saying that ‘the exchanges of populations, as a method of settling the problems of minorities, has been condemned in many quarters as a barbarous and dangerous innovation in internal politics." The Greek delegate at the Lausanne Conference had, in fact, declared that ‘Greece agrees that the compulsory exchanges shall not be applicable to her Moslem subjects of Albanian origin." However, the Greeks declared the Moslems of Tchameria as being "merely Albanophones," but in reality Greeks, and on this basis forced them to emigrate (Pallis art. cit.). Pallis argued that they emigrated of their own accord and that they were pleased in Turkey. This, however, is not the opinion of Ruth Pennington who returned to England in 1927 after ten months of work with the immigrants, ‘In Turkey the are 300,000 Albanian-speaking immigrants. Of these at least 10% would willingly shift their quarters and move again seeking for better land, to rejoin cousins and friends, who have already moved. Turkey does not wish for any further depopulation, but in spite of official prohibition, for the next 10 to 20 years there will be a constant leakage . . ." (Near East and India, Sept. 15, 1927, p. 333).
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Although in 1913, the population of the south Albanian region ceded to Greece was over 90% Albanian, no Albanian schools or newspapers were ever allowed. This population has been almost extirpated on account of the harsh treatment to which it was subjected.
When, following World War I, the Dalmatian question was discussed, the fact that the West Adriatic coast had previously belonged to the Venetians, Austrians, Hungarians, and - in parts - to the Turks, and that, moreover, Slav colonization of the Coast was a relatively recent event in history (for, although the Slavs had settled in some parts of the Coast already in the 7th century, colonization was still going on as late as the beginning of the 20th century),32 did not have an adverse effect relating to the claims of the South Slavs. According to M.R. Vesnic, ...except for historical arguments... no present day consideration would authorize Italy to spell out such pretentions. Economically, geographically, and from the point of view of morale, these shores are inseparable from the hinterland which is Yugoslavia.33
:32. Austria supported the Slavs against the Italians. Cf. M.E. Durham: "The Slavizing process in Dalmatia visibly progressed until the German-Austrians began to realize that they were warming a viper and feel nervous" (Twenty Years p. 13); cC. also U. Biscottini, Sull italianita della Dalmazia, 1930, p. 55.
:33. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16.
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Thus, disregarding historical considerations, Yugoslavia was allotted territories that were vast beyond her wildest dreams: to her devolved the beautiful Dalmatian Coast, where the Slavs had not ruled before, except for brief periods of time (a claim contested by the Hungarians) on some portions of it; to her was ceded Macedonia where the Serb population was insignificant and to which the Serbs had no claims before 1885;34 to her was allotted the Vojvodina (Banat) where a certain number of Serbs had been hospitably allowed to settle in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. The newly created state of Yugoslavia also retained territories which, regardless of the principles of ethnicity and self-determination had been previously granted to Serbia and Montenegro by the Treaty of Berlin and forcibly annexed by them.
:34. In 1880, the French consul in Scutari, when describing Macedonia in an "Aperiu geographique" of Albania, prepared by him for the French Government, did not even mention the Serbs: ‘La Macedonie est en effet partagee entre les Albanais, les Grecs, les KutzoValaques et les Bulgares," — Macedonia is divided between Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, and Bulgarians," (unpublished document contained in Albanie, Dossier I, "Archives de la Defense," Chateau de Vincennes, Paris). Cf. also M.E. Durham, The Serajevo Crime (London, 1925): "When I was living in Ochrida in the winter of 1903-4, a Serb schoolmaster had but just arrived. The largest school in town was the Bulgar one. The Greeks made a bad second. In spite of all his efforts, the Serb only succeeded in scraping up about 50 persons including his own family, the Greek priest and myself, to celebrate Saint Sava’s day. The majority were poor school children picked up in the town. In those days anyone who said that the Serbs would one day own Ochrida would have been thought insane" (p. 27). II ‘Dr. Milovanovich admitted in 1898 that the Serbs did not begin to think about Macedonia till 1885" (E. Noel-Buxton, Balkan Problems and European Peace, London, 1919, P. 27). /1 In regard to Macedonia, A. van Gennep, citing the Carnegie Report, criticized the Serb scholars Belic and Cvijic, attributing no scientific value to their research, because their sole purpose, according to the Carnegie report, was "to support the political claims of Serbia" (Van Gennep, Traitet� &s nationalites, Paris, ed. Payot, 1922, P. 202).
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Faust, when translating the New Testament into his mother tongue, rendered with "action" the meaning of "logos", thus writing: "at the beginning was action".35 As prototype of modern man, Faust did not believe in the fascination and power of the word, as traditional doctrines do. Since then, however, sociologists and anthropologists, especially Frazer, have pointed out the magic that not merely traditional doctrines, but also the so-called primitive peoples attach to certain words and names, the use they make of them in myths, and how these myths affect them. In his turn, Freud has rightly remarked that the primitive mind is contained in all of us. We are impressed by words. Indeed, the suggestive power emanating from some particular words and names that affect our unconscious, especially when used in myths, surpasses action. More exactly, words may become dynamic symbols; they automatically generate action owing to the very magic contained in them.
In fact, Old Serbia acquired for the Serbs a magic power similar to that contained in Illyria.
a. It was asserted that Stara Srbija was the cradle of the Nemanjis, the Serbian kings. Special emphasis, in this regard, was laid on the Glorious Empire of Stefan Dušan.
b. Of foremost importance was considered the Battle of 1389 against the Turks on the Field of Kosova. It was somehow implied in various writings that Czar Dušan's Empire was sacrificed on that battle which was said to have been fought by the Serbs alone to protect Europe.
c. The Serbs who wanted to prove that the Albanian-inhabited region had formerly been ethnically Serb, underscored and proclaimed widely what it became known as the Serbian Exodus or the Emigration of the Serbs to Hungary. It was stressed that the Serbs, as a result of the Austro-Turkish wars of 1690 and 1735, had been obliged to evacuate the region and emigrate to Hungary under the leadership of their bishop, Arsenije III Crnojevic. And that, subsequently, the land, once vacant, had been colonized by the ferocious Albanians assisted by the Turks. The Albanians inhabiting Kosova were thus considered as recent settlers who had no right to be there.
These important issues which played a paramount role in the delimitation of the Albanian borders shall be discussed in PartII.
:35. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs) 
---------
:::Hipi can you please share the link where you found the info, so we can check if sources are reliable and verifiable. Thanks for the info. (Asterion, thanks for restoring the text, that was removed by someone) greetings, Ilir pz 20:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History of Kosovo

message: Where is everyone? I thought all new changes would be discussed beforehand as a matter of respect? (This also goes for unsigned edits, Hipi) --Asterion talk to me 20:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well considering a lot of us are in school/university at the moment...we don't have much time to contribute, only revert ocassionally:P. C-c-c-c 21:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverting is not to do if you dont have much time to contribute. Instead discuss a little, that helps more. Asterion, I am a bit busy with school, for another 2-3 days, then will dedicate more time here. ilir_pz 21:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Boris not even b92 has that map that you put there. Do not start revert wars for no reason. I proposed a map for those who like maps, but none liked the idea. ilir_pz 22:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone out there? 

message: Revert activity at this page has been flagged at WP:AN, and as it's now reached the point where a user's first edit (I use the term loosely, I suspect) was a revert here.  Revert changes if you must, but note that doing so repeatedly, without regard to talk page discussion, or in egregiously suspicious circumstances, may be regarded as disruption.  Alai 23:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. This page was stable for some time, and editors from both sides achieved a consensus and were rationally editing, until recently when someone started changing maps, from some IP in Canada, some suspicious Special:Contributions/SerbianMafia account etc. I would appreciate some attention by any admin here in such cases. ilir_pz 23:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair warning 

message: *Please stop vandalizing this article, it's gone far enough. --Krytan 01:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you fully. How about you help by stopping yourself?!ilir_pz 01:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Good to hear.  You also broke the 3RR rule, lawl. --Krytan 01:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Multiple usernames?  I don't understand.  I don't have multiple usernames.  Although I don't break wikipedia rules either, like somebody I know ;)  I'll be doing some reporting after.  Turns out you might not get banned today, maybe tomorrow?  Cheers, --Krytan 01:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Im waitting if any administrator is going to do something agains this invasion. Now Im going to sleep. Ilir ky invasion nuk mund të pritet me diskutime ko është më se e qartë. Po më dhimbset PANONIA dhe ti, në fund të fundit puna e ju dy do të dëmtohet nga ky invasion. --Hipi Zhdripi 01:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please keep it in English, for the rest of the users to understand.  There is no "invasion" of Serbian accounts.  All the best, --Krytan 02:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry, but this is a invasion of sebian account in en:Wikipedia 

message: Given this, I've blocked several users involved in the recent spree of reverts.  If there are additional undiscussed reverts, in either direction, either from editors who've repeatedly reverted before, or who "show up out of nowhere", I'm going to block for disruption without further warning.  Let's see some discussion, and a ceasation of the sniping and tag-team reverts.  Alai 02:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blocks on the basis of checkuser result 

message: I will automatically revert any unsigned edits due to latest batch of sockpuppetry incidents. Asterion talk to me 07:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppet thing 

message: If this section is to remain it should be accompnied by some explanatory information. To begin with, it should be noted that these 'presidents' of Kosovo are not and have never been internationally recognized. Rather, they were the inofficial representatives of the kosovo albanian population.
Wikipedia should be used to convey facts, not to push a political agenda. So, although the 'presidents' were representatives of the majority of the people of Kosovo, they were, in fact, not the officially recognized as such.Osli73 13:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure presidents from 1989 to 1999 should be added as presidents. During that time apartheid existed in Kosovo, so they were not legitimate presidents. Besides, they were not called presidents, but something like "the head of the committee" or something. The first time Kosovo had a president was after 1999, with Ibrahim Rugova being the first. ilir_pz 10:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of presidents 

message: I will make one thing clear. As 1244 does not say that Kosovo is formally a part of Serbia, I will not allow people to alter that in the preamble of Kosovo article. Call your senses, please. ilir_pz 22:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever. ilir_pz 22:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lol sorry Boris:P  C-c-c-c 22:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: At least Montenegro is gone? :) --Krytan 03:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SCG nonexistant 

message: 1. The Serbian dinar has been removed from the currency in the article. 
2. It mentions (now Serbia) instead of the recent (now Serbia and Montenegro). If this refers to the dissolution of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, they're far from being dissolved - the results of the referendum are still 5% off, and we'll know final results tonight. There is a long road ahead of Serbia and Montenegro, regardless of whether the Montenegrin independence referendum has succeeded or failed. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two things I compel to complain 

message: The map doesn't even show Kosovo within Serbia, like the Vojvodina map.  Like this, it looks as if Kosovo is independent.  Krytan talk 23:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe because Kosovo is not within Serbia? didnt you wonder about that? ~Kosovo is soon to be de-jure recognized as independent, as de-facto it is. ilir_pz 23:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now, Ilir, where are the sources to support your claim? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I am none to decide that what you wish. Contact group has said specifically that Kosovo will not be devided, at any cost. And the status has to be acceptable to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo, which means independence will be the result, sooner or later. But according to Serbian sources that is to happen in November Sorry for the diappointment. Montenegro is not the last part of former Yugoslav federation to be formally recognized as independent.  ilir_pz 23:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't rush into the future. Wait until Montenegro becomes independent. Also - exactly what you said: will, meaning that Kosovo is not independent yet; no? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text: It wasn't good for my nation, Albanians, anyways. So what happens with it I care less than I care for what happens with a tribe in a tribe in African jungles. I don't mind that you don't care about Kosovo. Since you don't I encourage you not to involve in edit warring, out of no reason. The template for country will be used when the time comes. As Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, no template for such cases exists. Hence, it should stay as it is. Regards, ilir_pz 23:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No comment. ilir_pz 23:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Not just the Serbian constitution - read up (or in the Archive) - every single international source from the List of World Countries to the CIA considers Kosov a part of Serbia. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The table 

message: * Why? the Serbian Church 
* Atention is real is not propagander masaker 
thumb|left|200px|A Serbian church, before and after it was destroyed in the pogrom of 2004
During the last edit reversions going around, people have also been removing and adding back in this image. I think we should discuss it here. Personally, I do not have a real opinion on the matter, but it certainly cannot be dismissed that also many Serbian people and buildings suffered from the war. Cpt. Morgan 10:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we keep uploading pictures of how people suffered in Kosovo, I would have to upload tons of such with mutilated bodies of Albanian civillians. The above mentioned page belongs to the 2004 pogrom in Kosovo, and other war pictures to Kosovo war. I think we should agree on this, otherwise I will have to upload some pics soon. ilir_pz 10:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, so I remove it then. ilir_pz 10:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of destroyed Serbian church 

message: The article states that: There was a small minority of Circassians in Kosovo Polje(Fushë-Kosovë in Albanian) but they were repatriated to the Republic of Adygea, in Southern Russia, following threats by the KLA[6]. I am aware of the Circassians of Kossovo since Noel Malcolm gave generous mention of their presence in this province in his well-known tome. They arrived in the Balkans (at that time still Turkey in Europe) after the Russo-Turkish wars of 1877-1878. Many of them were shipped up on the Danube and disembarked at Vidin from where they continued their journey to the Ottoman-ruled Kossovo. Many of them remained in what is today Bulgaria especially in the towns on the right bank of the Danube. Until recently there was a compact Ciracssian village very close to Salonica called Tserkassoi (in the meanwhile the Greek patriots dilligently re-baptized it Ayios Serafimos: its current name). Yet it is the first time when I hear about their being sent 'back' (after 130 years?) to Adygea in what is today Southern Russia by the "KLA'. Sorry, I one don't believe this made up story. Any concrete source or refferences? Apostolos Margaritis 17:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is indeed an intriguing claim. I think that the correct term is "fled". Dahn 17:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WEll, at the end of the day google sorts everything out. Even romantic tales like that of the Circassians are inevitably cached. Malcolm describes their amazing beauty (women very beautiful, men very handsome) and about how they were accused by the locals that they steal horses and eat carrion. Many of them perished after contracting typhus. And now back to  Mother Russia which they once so much hated? Apostolos Margaritis 17:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ciracassians

message: Someone keeps removing the links that I provide. One of them is an EU link which proves that Euro is the official currency, approved by the international community in Kosovo. The other one is a link to Vetevendosja an Albanian movement in Kosovo for Self-determination. I clearly stated that is is a pro-Albanian site. I do not see why would one remove these parts? I also added categories, and fixed minor spelling mistakes. No need to remove them either. ilir_pz 23:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Question, why is the link "national awaking of Albania", or whatever is it on there. If we have to delete everything involving Serbia, why not this too?C-c-c-c 23:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then why can't we add Serbian politics on there? Obviously representatives of Serbia got invited to come to Vienna for the talks, so why shouldn't it be important? And if Serbia is invited, then they must be seen as a key player obviously, which you are nevertheless trying to deny. C-c-c-c 23:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text:  My point is, why is Serbia being invited? (because Kosovo is still legally part of S & M) C-c-c-c 23:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because Serbia's govt is representing the interests of Kosovo Serbs :), and because it will have a lot to pay, war damages, provide information for the hidden bodies of Albanian victims transported from Kosovo to Serbia. ilir_pz 23:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This is getting too long, and you keep jumping from a topic to another. I have no information about the war in Croatia, so I cannot speculate. You seem to have information, but share it in "Croatian war" wiki page, here is not the place. Kosovo government does not send killers to kill civillians. Some other government is talented at that, and you know who I am talking about, some more "civillized" government :))). KLA does not exist for more than 6 years now. You are just misleading. End of discussion for today. ilir_pz 00:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Whatever. you are so young, and so full of hatred and irony. Sad. No time to answer to such nonsense.ilir_pz 08:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone removing legitimate links and other 

message: The Kosovo page is highly slanted towards Serbs.There is no way this page is going to remain like this.
 "Alleged execution of civilians in Recak"?
 No talk about mosque destruction when 200 of them were raised to the ground 
 No mention of the notorious massacres ( other than Recak) 
 2,800 people of Serb origin are still missing? Baloney. 
I will be busy in the next couple of weeks giving this page a sense of sanity. I haven't looked at it in while and sure enough it has been high jacked by the Serb propaganda machine. The whole thing is slanted!Ferick 03:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Come back with sources, Ferick. Of course you are welcome to edit here, and disregard inflammatory comments from people who attempt to stop you from doing that. ilir_pz 08:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: So you are going to vandalize the article?  Bravo, bravo... -- Krytan talk 01:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These sources were long needed to prove that many crimes in Kosovo were not "alleged" as some like to label them, but happened for real. No wonder, 10000 or more Albanians did not get struck by NATO, or thunder. These articles have to be incorporated here, and as well in the Kosovo war article. Thanks for bringing these sources here, Ferick. ilir_pz 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Crimes are crimes, and took place in Kosovo. If the sources are reliable, all of them need to be put in one place. It is not what "sides" think that should be put here, but what independent sources have confirmed. If we put what "sides" think, we will get more than 20000 Serbs killed during the war, and that documentation might exist, as prepared during Milosevic era, for justifying his massacres. Thus I do not think we should separate them. ilir_pz 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Rather than having separate sections for Serb and ethnic Albanian crimes, why not have a section on war crimes allegations with bullet points with brief details and links to other sources.--الأهواز 00:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with the latter. Many crimes were alleged, for reaching certain (stupid) goals. Instead, it is good to make a clear distinction of what was alleged and what was proven to have happened. In advance I propose to not use local sources. What do you think? they can be biased. ilir_pz 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Ferick: I think you are right, but I can see this becoming an issue of dispute. What would you say is a reliable source? Also, some may argue that the only crimes that are proven are those that have been successfully convicted by the International Tribunal.--الأهواز 12:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serb Crimes hard to be found

message: I know that there is a dispute over the issue of Kosovo's sovereignty - whether it is a province of Serbia or of the union of Serbia and Montenegro. Looking at UN Resolution 1244, Kosovo is not defined as an autonomous area of Serbia but of the then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro). It also recognises the territorial integrity of FRY.
Paragraph 10 "Authorizes the Secretary-General [...] to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic selfgoverning institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo."
To me, the issue is fairly clear-cut as far as international law is concerned: under Resolution 1244, Kosovo is an autonomous region of Serbia and Montenegro. There is no mention of rule from the Serbian authorities, which are distinct from the union of Serbia and Montenegro.
But the issue is complex as the country as a whole has changed its constitution since Resolution 1244 was passed. Serbia and Montenegro is a union of two republics and under the old FRY before the 1999 war it was legally a province of Kosovo. I do not think that the Republic of Serbia has changed its position with regards to the sovereignty of Kosovo. So, under the law of Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo is technically still a part of Serbia. The Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro is quite clear about this. It refers to "the state of Serbia which includes the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija." 
No-one can actually state Kosovo's legal position until the issue of its constitutional arrangement is finally settled. There is considerably ambiguity as to Kosovo's sovereignty and in a sense both Bormalagurski and Ilir_pz are right.
As a neutral observer, I think the conflict between the law of Serbia and Montenegro and international law with regards to Kosovo's sovereignty should be highlighted in this article.--الأهواز 09:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree Ferick.Local laws are disregarded in this case, hence the constitution law of SCG is less powerful than the international law. ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You tend to ignore internationally ratified documents ruling in Kosovo, and instead refer to some maps, Osli73. Not sure this is how a politician like you should evaluate the real situation. Regards, ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The controversy is whether Kosovo is a part of the union of Serbia and Montenegro or the Republic of Serbia. There is a difference between the two. The UN Resolution refers to Kosovo as an autonomous region of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but this has now been replaced by the Union of Serbia and Montenegro which has declared in its constitution that Kosovo is an autonomous part of Serbia. The issue would provide rich pickings for lawyers, but I don't think anyone here is qualified to make a judgement. We can only provide some understanding of the controversies and contradictions and leave it to the reader's judgement.--الأهواز 23:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the statement by Ferick above made it clear, that international laws here make more sense than the other local law. ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Guys, as i have said before, i think that the issue is more easy to deal with it. Kosovo, an autonomous province of Former Yugoslavia became part of New Yugoslavia (later just Yugoslavia, and some years ago became Serbia and Montenegro). according to the UN, it is a de jure part of Serbia (even after the Montenegrin referendum and the divide of the federal state, Kosovo, de jure, is part of Serbia). But, de facto, is under UN control (with much EU influence). when the talks about its future will come to an end, we can add their outcome here (and move the current ballanced-i think-edits to the history section). but it is silly to say that it is not part of Serbia at present, although the UN recognises it as such, it has not declared independance, nor any country has attempted to recognise it as separate country. thus, at the moment, the article is accurate enough, without taking sides (note that the first paragraph is the result of a sort of compromise between two users supporting different POVs). --Hectorian 00:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats it. And you dont need to say nothingg more. But here is nt the problem thate the serbian users dont know thate but they are usen this page for conflicts. They can not live without problems, they need somthing to be spocet about they, they must put they fingers every wher. I can understen they beacose they bio-gens are so --172.208.219.77 00:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No UN approved document mentions Kosovo to be a part of Serbia Hectorian. Take a look at the 1244 resolution, or any law ratified in Kosovo by the UNMIK. It is not good to speculate, based on some laws passed by a country that has no moral, and no factual right over Kosovo. Those laws in this case are useless and ignored fully. ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Maps and press releases are not equally important as UNSC decisions, Asterion. ilir_pz 19:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The UN Resolution 1244 says that Kosovo is part of FRY. It makes no mention of whether it is part of Serbia proper or a member of the federation - now a political union. The Constitution of Serbia and Montenegro states that Kosovo is part of Serbia.--الأهواز 12:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Asterion. i will not take part in this debate anymore either... UN maps and documents, plus all countries all over the world, say that it is a de jure part of Serbia. i find it useless to try to convince users to accept reality... if they want to stick on specific words, denying the whole meaning of a document, it's fine by me... i won't take part in edit-rv-wars (i think i can be more useful in other articles). In a year's time, i hope, the dispute over this fact will be over. --Hectorian 12:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Its fine you guys don’t want to take part in the debate. We are looking at the situation from two different Paradigms-diametrically opposing views. Normally, people can find common points of agreement but I guess you don’t think that is possible. The problem here is that even if Kosovo were to become independent tomorrow you would still point out that Serbia has not accepted this Independence and therefore Independence is not valid. Am I wrong here?
There is more here that just a disagreement about the current status of Kosovo. You think Kosovo shall never become Independence, which is a political view, and there are other people (majority) who beg to differ. That’s the underlying disagreement. I suspect the disagreement will go on even after Kosovo’s status is resolved because of what I said above.Ferick 13:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop pushing POV and altering my words (and Asterion's as well)! and stop supposing what i may say if/when Kosovo becomes independent and how i may feel 'bout the serbs or albanians (there are users who know). lastly, i will come back in this debate only when the users will be ready to accept facts and reality. end of discussion (at the moment) for me. --Hectorian 13:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: POV pushing is ignoring what the UNSC states, and instead referring to some maps, or press releases, or constitutions of a country that literally organized the genocide in Kosovo. Call your reason, and consider when you cite sources. Thank you, ilir_pz 19:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is an obvious confusion in the legal status of Kosovo due to the contradiction between the constitution of Serbia and Montenegro and Resolution 1244. I think we can only point this out in the article, quoting each document. I don't think maps and press releases define what is sovereignty "de jure", although I think we are all agreed that neither Serbia nor the union of Serbia and Montenegro have any real power over Kosovo. It is also not our place to decide on whether Kosovo should be independent or not and anyone who thinks that this article should pass judgement is missing the point about Wikipedia and its commitment to NPOV.--الأهواز 19:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That is exactly what I am against, Ahwaz. Some people here attempt to find sources that only back their wishes (i.e. wanted status of Kosovo), and it is wrong. The fact is Kosovo has no legal status, hence, not a part of any country. Period. If we quote constitutions, then Kosovo's (more than 90%) of the population declared it independent in early 90's. Then we need to respect that constitution which was approved by the significant majority of the territory we are talking about. Then there is another confusion added to the whole mess. Instead, keep to the point, Kosovo's status is yet unresolved, that is why negotiations are taking place. It is quite clear for me, don't know why people here get confused so much. ilir_pz 19:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflicts between UN Resolution 1244 and S and M's Constitutional Charter 

message: Serbia and Montenegro still exists even after the Montenegrin referendum. Montenegro has passed no law of secession, the union has not been formally dissolved, Montenegro is not recognised as an independent state by the UN and is not a member of the UN. Some editors started deleting Serbia and Montenegro from this article even before the referendum results were declared. It won't be some months before Montenegro is an independent state and until then, Serbia and Montenegro is the correct term to use.--الأهواز 12:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason they delete SCG and instead leave Serbia is because it somehow satisfies their inner feeling. No matter how strange that may seem for you. ilir_pz 19:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My friend at first. After the serbian masaker (I mean with humen definicion of term "masaker" not with the propagada definition) in Kosovo, with masaker in Adem Jashari family, Serbia hase lost Kosovo, "de facto" and "de juro". Now, the serbians can start screaming and crying for they church, and they political "masakers", for they "enklaves" but thet is going nothing to chanche, Kosovo ist "de facto" and "de juro" out of Serbia. The nature (biologie gene) of this folk is this. They have started with military agains the armed familys wich have no eperienc with military. (Sllovenia, Kroacia, Bosnja, Kosovo). After they lose (eache family belongs to one folk they have forgetit thate), they stardet screaming and crying. The albanian nature is somthing als, we know who hase don what and thate all what we need. The father and mther Russia is death and the serbs diden understande thate till now. This is a problem. For your "Serbia and Montenegro" the paper in witch is wroting that they are a state you can take and user for WC.--172.178.93.99 20:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To the non IP, I can say that I was brought up a Muslim and I have no sympathy for the Serbian Orthodox Church. But if you are talking of the law, the status of Kosovo is not certain. Kosovo is not an independent state. The UN recognises it as part of Serbia and Montenegro and the constitution of Serbia and Montenegro recognises it as part of Serbia. Whether you like it or not, Kosovo is de jure part of the Union until it's final status is resolved. This is not about being pro- or anti- Albanian or Serbia, it is simply about the facts. Personally, I have nothing against Serbs and Montenegrins and have met Dragiša Burzan, the ambassador to London and former deputy prime minister of Montenegro, on two occasions. I think the issue is complex and should not be determined by the political preferences of certain editors, either pro-Serbian or pro-Albanian.--الأهواز 00:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Paparlapap, I live here. 5 centuries? yes and the serbians from Hungary and als wher has take care to keep they during the Ottoman time and they diden succes to keep they church in Belgrade????? Till the 1912 in Belgrad it was more muslims monasters als serbians. Go and talk with somebody out of Earth. All the serbian Church in Kosovo it was build after the Ottomans started to lose controll over this area, please this is not a place to talle the children a good night storys.--172.208.219.77 00:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Very emotional description, Gianni_ita. I am not sure Israelis massacred the people of Jerusalem, and opened many mass graves filled with bodies of civillians, or even worse cremated them somewhere outside Jerusalem. Hint: Serbian regime did. As far as churches are concerned, some people say those Churches existed much earlier than 5 centuries ago, when the local people were Roman Catholic. The land is holy to those who make a living there, are born there, and the generations before them have also. Living in myths is wrong. With all respect to Serbian churches, do not make it sound as if Albanians do not care about them. The cultural heritage of all Kosovo is sacred, and (has to and) will be protected. Let me remind you that during the war several other cultural heritages in Kosovo were damaged, among them hundreds of equally old mosques, and building of League of Prizren, and many many public libraries. Measuring who did what during the war, and who did more or less harm to the other, is not smart. ilir_pz 18:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I will have to correct your "admiration", Kosovar Albanians were slow in uniting as they did today, and several types of suffering and oppresions finally brought the (admirable by you) situation as it is now. Ironically. And their unification is not against Serbs or Serbia, but against any kind of imposed regime on Kosovo again. Let us have this clear here. One smart move that Ibrahim Rugova took I will always appreciate, he did not inspire any responce (militarily) to Milosevic's provocations to start some kind of uprisal in early 1990s, because we were going to be the lesson for all the rest of republics within ex-Yug that wanted to secceede. Luckily, that did not work, or today we would have a majority of Serbs in Kosovo, and mass graves filled with (more than 10) thousands of bodies of Albanians, and Albanian refugees would be already used to living outside Kosovo (in Albania and all around the world) and Operation Horseshoe would be completed much earlier. Milosevic did plenty to deserve to be mentioned in the black history of Kosovo, and one that destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people (not only in Kosovo) and (hopefully not for a long time) spoiled the coexistence of Serbs and other non-Serbs he terrorized. It would be a shame even if anyone erects a statue of his even in Serbia. Your irony can be felt, but you should know some more facts before you use it. ilir_pz 18:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Kosovo is the drug-trading hot-spot, and so is Albania. Half of the population of Albania are still farmers, using tools that were used centuries ago. Albania has a large gray economy that may be as large as 50% of official GDP. Now, as far as wars are concerned, Albanians have, only in the last 15 years, started three, one in Kosovo, one in South Serbia (Presevo Valley), and one in Macedonia. All were wars of secession, wherever they go, they want to separate. This is not propaganda, this is fact, and anyone in the world can check it. Comparing to Serbia's percentage of 96% who can read and write, Albania's percentage of 86% sounds low. I have never heard, in my 16 years of living in Serbia, that Albanians have tails, I'm affraid you made that up. Furthermore, the Greater Albania concept still lives in Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece, while the "Greater Serbia" dream has faded away long ago. I think the world should stop focusing on something that no longer exists, and focus on solving the problem that the drug-dealing, weapons-smuggling, war-starting Albanians. Regards, --26px serbiana - talk 19:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbia and Montenegro 

message: In their attempt to spread anti Albanian hysteria, Serbs have forgotten their dirty laundry.
As I have said before, take with a grain of salt everything written by a Serb about Albanians. They will stop at nothing in their attempt to spread falsehoods.
Now, ladies and gentleman, here is something about Serbia that a Serb would do anything to prevent you from knowing.  This information is from a Serbian source: Serbian Education and Labor Ministry!  
Poverty still rife in Serbia “President of the Free Workers Union, Dragoljub Stosic, said that Albania was once the regional poster child for poverty, but that because of the high unemployment rate and the increased amount of corruption, Serbia has now taken over the role. 
“We are, unfortunately, one of the countries for which days such as this are being recognized.” Stosic said yesterday, which marked the International Day for the Fight Against Poverty. 
“We are on the same level as Rwanda and similar countries, though I would not compare them with us because, there are increasingly fewer and fewer nations with whom we can compare ourselves. We cannot offer help today, we can only ask for charity.” Stosic said.”
Half of Serbia Illiterate “According to statistics from the Education Ministry, nearly 50 percent of Serbian citizens never finished elementary schooling. This means that over 3 million people in Serbia are considered illiterate by all international and European standards. “
I report, you decide.Ferick 17:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think these comments about Albanians are conducive to a discussion on how to produce a factual NPOV article. It would be helpful if editors desisted from shouting against Serbs and Albanians and got on with putting in factual content.--الأهواز 11:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are mild comments in comparison what I am used to hearing, Ahwaz. You are just seeing the top of the iceberg here. ilir_pz 11:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: See Giani_ita, this text above is exactly what I am talking about, the extent that the Serbian youth is mis-informed about Albanians in general. I do not care to explain further to people who are determined to push their propaganda. I only state the facts, by providing you with sources. ilir_pz 21:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See, dear Wikipedians, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the extent that the Albanian youth is mis-informed about it's own people in general. I have only stated facts, Ilir has done nothing to prove me wrong, but has claimed that I'm pushing my POV. He accuses me of pushing propaganda, yet he can't find a single source to prove me wrong. PROVE ME WRONG, ILIR, PROVE ME WRONG! --26px serbiana - talk 00:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You dont just copy the way I make my personal page, but even the way I write sentences. Cite at least :))))). Your disruptive behavior (has been and) will be dealt with by admins soon. ilir_pz 00:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You have lost Sllovenian war, Croatian war, Bosnien war, Kosovo war, thate was not inofe you have killed the democratie (Xhinxhiq) and you are acusen the albanias for great albania??? Please after you are clean from Raki comme bac.--172.208.219.77 00:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: All the Balkans has a high criminality rate. I hear more cases of different mafia bosses being arrested and chased in Serbia than in any country around, but for some reason only Albanians have a high criminality rate. Gianni_ita, it is not in my interest to make serbs look as bad guys. Having good neighbours is better than bad ones, that you dont have to be smart to know. But unfortunately one should clarify the truth, when having neighbours who were blinded by propaganda, for decades, into thinking only bad about among their oldest neighbours-Albanians. You say that the reason the world does not want to listen to Serbs is because you had the lousiest politicians. I am not sure who elects them, God or the people. I think the latter. So it  should have been them who should have done something, not instead follow them to wage wars. I think the world got the picture about all the victims in this bloody region. I did not say Kosovar war was a religious one, though Serbian regime wanted to give it such a character: it destroyed many old mosques (also cultural heritage of Kosovo, just like churches), spread rumours about Al-Qaeda being in Kosovo, etc. I am not interested to describe the massacres either, they disturb me more than they disturb a foreigner, because I had relatives who were victims of that. Massacres are just another reason, in a list of many, that Kosovo should be only independent, and have no relation with a regime which seems democratic from outside, but uses the same language against Albanians as Milosevic did...exclude the military and police brutality, it is exactly the same. I do justify them though, having that many radicals in the parliament, they have to act the way they are. ilir_pz 10:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some Serbs do not want you to read this

message: A certain Serb user named Bormalagurski continues to replace factual statistics (with reliable sources) about the missing people in Kosovo with his phony numbers and no source. Usually people revert when they dispute something, but this guy doesn't have a leg to stand on, and doesn't even claim to have information that proves his claims-He just reverts.  I am not surprised that someone like him would do something like this, but one needs to ask a question: what kinds of value people like him bring to Wikipedia? I don't see anything positive.Ferick 03:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Replacement of factual statistics with phony numbers

message: HIPI ZHDRIPI SHOULD BE REMOVED OR BANNED FROM WIKIPEDIA FOR INSULTING ME THROUGH INSULTING MY RELIGION. I DIDN'T INSULT YOUR RELIGION, AND I NEVER WILL INSULT ANYONE WITH DIFFERENT BELIEFS.
LET'S KEEP THE DISCUSSION ON THE BASIS OF FACTS WE HAVE. HIPI, DISCUSSING WITH YOU IS IMPOSSIBLE.
Gianni ita 08:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  REQUEST 

message: HI FERICK!
I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT THE WEB SITE YOU RECOMENDED ME MADE ME LAUGH FOR SO LONG.
YOU ARE SOME KIND OF A FUNNY GUY? SERBIA WITH 50 % OF ILLITERATE PEOPLE??
THAT'S A BIG LIE MY FRIEND. 
THESE ARE THE OFFICIAL PERCENTAGES- SERBIA (WITHOUT KOSOVO) 2002.- AROUND 5 % OF ILLITERATE PEOPLE.
SERBIA (WITH KOSOVO) 1991. - AROUND 8% OF ILLITERATE PEOPLE.
STOP ALBANIAN PROPAGANDA!
Gianni ita 09:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you are using CAPS for me as well? what did I lie in my message above? I did not say that the b92 article was correct or a lie. I was myself surprised. Here is an article about that in B92. ilir_pz 09:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "Otherwise, I appreciate that you care about the border between Serbia and Albania."? Gianni_ita? ilir_pz 13:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Care to explain why you say "Serbs and Albanians (from Albania) are very well educated people," in the discussion page about Kosovo? Or you added that "from Albania" accidentally? :)) ilir_pz 13:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FERICK THE SERB HATER 

message: I've come to realize that some people don't believe that Kosovo lies within the internationally recognized borders of Serbia (which any political map of Europe will tell you, including the one on here on Wikipedia [], likewise if you look at the CIA map of Europe  or those published by the EU ). As such, it is a province of Serbia. However, it is run by the UN and administered by UNMIK.
So, in light of these facts, why can't we settle on the NPOV introductory statement that "Kosovo is a province of Serbia administered by the United Nations"? I realize a lot of Kosovar Albanians want nothing to do with Serbia (which I can fully sympathize with) and therefore don't like being called a province of Serbia. However, this doesn't change the fact that is legally still is. 
Please excuse me but I can't help making an analogy. The issue above is a bit like a married couple who have separated after the husband beat the wife. Just because the wife hates the husband and wants nothing to do with him doesn't change the fact that, from the point of view of the law, they are still married until the divorce is final. 
So, let's stick to the facts and not what we would like the the facts to be.
PS. Simply stating that Kosovo is a province in the Central Balkans would be about as misleading to the readers as stating that Catalunia is a province in southwestern Europe or that Scotland is a province in northwestern Europe. The wording of Res. 1244 is more about politics and what was acceptable to all parties at the time (ie getting Serb troops out for NATO and keeping Kosovo as a part of Yugoslavia for Serbia).Osli73 11:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As Resolution 1244 is the document which regulates this, please search within it, and find your claim. I just want it to be according to that article. Kosovar Albanians do not want even what that resolution says about the "de-jure" part, but that is a different matter. The res.1244 does NOT mention what you are suggesting. Regards, ilir_pz 12:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Hehe, the analogy is a funny one. You just forgot to compare it in a rather different way, the wife's body parts were cut, not just beaten up, the relatives of the wife (innocent civillians in Kosovo) were massacred, etc. Furthermore, that marriage was made by force by the "father" (Large Powers). And some neighbour, or an individual (read: readers like you) still insist that the woman is supposed to be that husband's wife, and every document should say so, even if temporarily. Being Swedish, you should be familiar about the laws on protection of women, and in this case that husband would deliberately be sent to prison, to linger there for a long time, let alone stop that marriage. I like analogies, actually :))) ilir_pz 12:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 1244 resolution is the temporary guard, which more or less cohabitates with the wife, until she is cleared out formally (independence recognized by intl community) from an imposed marriage. The air strikes are the analogy to the democratic (say Swedish) state taking over that marriage and getting the husband out of the house :). ilir_pz 13:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You misunderstood my statement, anyways. The independence recognized by intl community means changing the status-quo i.e. statusless status :). Besides, due to too much emotional edits in this article, the article has been protected. ilir_pz 13:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Status of Kosovo 

message: Work things out please. --Woohookitty(meow) 12:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no current status of Kosovo, this is the point you are misunderstanding, Osli73. Hence, the status talks in Vienna. You do not have to be very smart to know this. And yes, 1244 resolution DOES NOT mention Serbia anywhere in the document. No reason to push further against the 1244 resolution. ilir_pz 13:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like Ferick gave you the explanation. I just cannot understand why you are so pushy Osli73? Just respect the (not the best) 1244 Resolution, as of now, and don't waste your energy. Maps show old data, and are not often updated. It will take who knows how long to change maps when Montenegro becomes independent. Furthermore status-less territories, such as is Kosovo, cannot be represented in maps, therefore old maps are used for them. Do not act so surprised, you should know that. ilir_pz 20:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I see two maps at that site, one under the "Country maps" (!) sub-menu of "General Maps", and one under "Peacekeeping Maps", but both indicate K. as part of S&M, and indeed as part of Serbia.  The "tanks on the lawn" situation is rather different from the Taiwan case:  here the governing authority allows Kosovo to in large part operate as if autonomous, but does not allow declrations of autonomy, independence, separatism, or whatever (and indeed itself asserts the contrary).  The RoC government could, however, make whichever declarations it wishes (or perhaps, dares to).  Alai 04:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: So forget about the maps, my only point was that you can use them to reason both ways. And I totally agree that Wikipedia should contain usefull, unbiased information. I just do not agree with the remark that Yugoslavia turned into Serbia. The article on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia states that Yugoslavia was the name of the federation of the republics Serbia and Montenegro, which existed between 1992 and 2003, when it was transformed into new country named Serbia and Montenegro. Once Montenegro officially leaves the union, I would agree with you. Since Montenegro is still part of Serbia-Montenegro, Kosovo is a province of that country and not of Serbia, which is not an indepedent state at the moment. Cpt. Morgan 08:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: cpt.Morgan, the resolution 1244 should be modified accordingly, and until then, you cannot just say "ok it was yugoslavia, now it is serbia" and interprete the resolution the way you want. ...argh I am getting tired of this ilir_pz 13:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Seems like someone is not satisfied enough with the (already morally wrong) wording that Kosovo is de-jure a part of ex-Yug (read: the country that carried mass executions of Kosovo's people, and the apartheid before that, and is recently playing with the bodies of killed civillians in Serbia itself). This is getting as ridiculous as it gets. Only about one wording. My God. And then they blame me for NPOV pushing. Look at your contributions, first. ilir_pz 10:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Osli, of these two references, one names Kosovo to be a part of Serbia-Montenegro, the other as a part of Serbia. Since Serbia-Montenegro is (if you will) the follow-up of Yugoslavia, Kosovo would be part of that, until it dissolves in Serbia and Montenegro. From that point on, Serbia will (arguably) be the follow up of Yugoslavia. Rather than simply complaining about nationalist feelings, can you explain why you cannot accept the wording Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro). Cpt. Morgan 12:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually am very curious why Osli73 thinks there is something wrong with that wording? Besides that it is offensive to Albanians in Kosovo, for the rest it is according to 1244...and actually more than that, as neither Serbia and Montenegro are mentioned in the 1244 resolution, only Former FRY. ilir_pz 12:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that is offensive to some people is not an argument here, there are many articles on wikipedia that are offensive to certain people. The only thing that matters is which country can be considered the follow-up of the FRY. Cpt. Morgan 13:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: the words you mentioned above are legitimate enough, and have been used by the international community sources that you quote as well. Do not accuse me falsely. Furthermore Kosova is the way more than 90% of the population in Kosovo call the plac, why should that be any political opinion? ilir_pz 12:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Osli, the BBC reference you gave named Kosovo as a province of Serbia-Montenegro, not of Serbia alone. So do many documents of the EU and many other news stories on the internet. As I see it, Kosovo is regarded a province of Serbia-Montenegro by some people, and a province of Serbia by others. Because currently Serbia-Montenegro is the official country and not Serbia, I do not understand why you so fiercely oppose the current wording: Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro). Can you please explain? Cpt. Morgan 13:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I stated several times that the 1244 res is enough to state that de-jure part you are being so pushy about, but it does NOT say a word about Serbia, do not misinterprete my words. You tend to push for the latter, which neither did I, nor the 1244 Resolution mention. ilir_pz 14:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Your suggestion is more balanced than Osli's.  quoting this source, your statement is further confirmed: While legally still part of Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (passed June 10, 1999). Under UNSCR 1244, UNMIK assumes the supreme legal authority in Kosovo, while working to create "substantial autonomy and self-governance" in Kosovo and, eventually, facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status.  Osli wanna push further than this I guess? Hope not. Anyways, we are arguing about something that is due to change drastically in Autumn of this year. Then some will regret over spending so much time over something like this. ilir_pz 15:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "live with"? seems like it is of vital interest to you to waste so much time for this definition. Let me remind you, all this that you came to agree with ALREADY is in the text. Do you now believe me that you wasted precious time? The way it is specified in the text already explains the de-jure and the de-facto situation. That Kosovo is de-facto independent, you do not need to be very smart to see that. The de-jure part is also explained in the existing text in the main article. ilir_pz 09:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Both are fine with me as well, but I prefer the first one for no specific reason. Cpt. Morgan 16:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: If stated properly, I hardly think people will be confused. I Honestly do not understand why that is such a big deal to you. You underestimate wikipedia readers :) Cpt. Morgan 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I know what your opinion is. I disagree since A LOT of articles and documents talk about Kosovo as a province of Serbia-Montenegro. My last suggestion stated exactly that. With, in the second part of the sentence, a short description of the origin of Kosovo getting under UN control. What if we split it in two sentences:
"Kosovo is an autonomous province in southern Serbia and Montenegro. It came under the administration of the United Nations in 1999 when it was part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (UN Security Council Resolution 1244)." 
I really don't see how you can object to that? It is totally historically accurate. Cpt. Morgan 22:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Can you explain why you object to the use of the word autonomous? It is even stated exactly like that in the article on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? I think it is an important aspect of the current status of Kosovo. Cpt. Morgan 06:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Check also this page, Vojvodina, another autonomous province. Cpt. Morgan 06:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Kosovo is called an autonomious province in the following articles:Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Serbia, Subdivisions of Serbia, Template:Serbia and Montenegro and by many UN, EU and US documents. Example:. Historically, it was autonomous until Slobodan Milosovic claimed Kosovo in 1991. It is again autonomous now and should be named as such. I do not at all understand why you object to that. Does it confuse wikipedia readers? No. Is it historically incorrect? No. Is an albanian nationalist statement? No. I am trying to find a consensus here, but just disagreeing without arguments makes that very difficult. Cpt. Morgan 08:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you are joking on this part, Osli. Saying that Kosovo had any kind of autonomous character from 1991 is ridiculous. You are citing a wrong source. ilir_pz 09:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: My main objection is that it sounds like a sentence from a legal document rather than from an encyclopedia. But I would urge both of you to show some willingness in ending this dispute please.  We are talking here because Osli wanted the introduction changed (which is his good right and was also the wish of others before him), which ended in a reversion war because you (and others) did not agree. We will have to agree to a certain compromise now. Cpt. Morgan 11:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: on the contrary, Reinoutr, the existing formulation states as the situation really is on the ground. I am not sure I can call this formulation as non-enciclopedia formulation. It has to do with some law, hence a law-like term should be used..we have to deal with a Resolution from UN here, we cannot just skip the definition. An encyclopedia also clarifies the situation according to laws, not just "common" knowledge. Don't you think so? Oh and the existing definition, is a looooooong long compromised solution between Wikipedians from both parties included in the dispute, as well as foreign readers...until Osli73 showed his interest in allegedly bringing neutrality here. ilir_pz 17:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry I missed your statement above Ilir. My suggestion is to use one of the 5 options in the intro of the article and give a more thorough, judicial explanation later in the article (perhaps moving the heading politics to nr. 1 or 2 and explain it in detail right there?). In that way, the intro is kept concise and simple, but the article does explain the situation in more detail. I know that is not your preferred option, but I would like to remind you that reaching consensus between editors is a key part of Wikipedia, so everybody will have to give and take a little (see also Wikipedia:Consensus). The fact that a compromise was reached before must be taken into account, I agree, but it is not the only factor we have to deal with, especially since the wording chosen was far from ideal, as was also mentioned by Hectorian at the time that the compromise was reached (which is only 5 days ago, so far from established). Cpt. Morgan 20:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not have any grounds to suspect my opinions, as I did not give you any. I keep referring to Resolution 1244, which is not my favourite anyways, but for the sake of keeping a NPOV and referring the the document with highest importance in Kosovo. UNSCR should be revised, and if not, they cannot be implied as such just by intuition, or non-partisan websites' claims. You should keep the version according to the respective UNSCR, until another one is released, or UN informs the public about who inherits what from that resolution. ilir_pz 10:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, I do not support any version that is not according to UN 1244 Resolution. And those versions you support, and you think that I should support violate that resolution. The resolution does NOT mention Serbia in any way "in,within,of,inside.." I am not aware of any newer resolution Osli, but feel free to bring it over. ilir_pz 10:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly because it is an intro, you should refer to UNSCR 1244 as it is, and provide the technicalities (if they make sense) in the separate section below. And not provide some made-up technicalities and PUSH (like you've been doing eversince you started your wiki-career) to just mention Serbia, and nothing else when referring to Kosovo...for the sake of some kind of neutrality, which I still do not understand still.ilir_pz 10:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: What is the truth? General truth? or YOUR truth? Do not use such words which have a broad meaning. If you study politics you should know that there is no such word there :). Insisting about what the UN Resolution ACTUALLY says is POV pushing? now that is some opinion. I have no further comment. ilir_pz 11:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure, cool. Thanks, cpt.Morgan.ilir_pz 10:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: FYI, I may have unintentionally thrown a bit of fuel on this fire by making an edit replacing "Serbia and Montenegro" with "Serbia" yesterday without noting this debate, and for that, I apologize.  In any case, speaking as someone with absolutely no allegiance to one national tradition or the other but a pretty decent grasp of international law, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties makes it clear that the rights and responsibilities held by FRY went to S&M and then went to the present Republic of Serbia.  Resolution 1244 would be read by any serious international lawyer to mean Kosovo is part of the de jure sovereign territory of whatever state is regarded as the successor state to FRY.  Now, I think it's pretty clear that the majority of the population there doesn't consider themselves part of the Serbian nation.  Fine.  But statecraft is full of blacks and whites (to a fault), and its clear that Kosovo is officially part of the state of Serbia, with 1244 only transferring administrative control to the UN.  This is a cold fact of life.  Being Irish doesn't prevent me from recognizing that Northern Ireland falls under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom under international law, and I should hope those Albanian contributors will recognize that publishing the legal circumstances of Kosovo's current situation as currently recognized by the international community does nothing to strengthen or demean the aspirations of Kosovars to self-determination. The Tom 23:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apology accepted. (at least from my side). With all due respect to your background and your personal opinion, we are dealing with a law here. And any serious international lawyer knows that for new definitions to be accepted, the law should be changed accordingly, and not according to some "common sense". Laws are laws. The current compromise on the definition of the intro part is supposed to reflect the current situation, which is defined by the UNSCR 1244, and has nothing to do with strengthening or weakening any aspirations of any particular group of people. My aim here is to only reflect the legal circumstances as they are defined by the law, and not according to some personal opinions, be that of mine, or anyone else. As I said several times before, my personal opinion is very different from what the UN Resolution states, and I have my reasons and facts for it, but that is not the point here. Best regards, ilir_pz 23:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, ilir pz. Perhaps I should have been clearer, though--this isn't a question of common sense.  International law is pretty explicit about successor states, and just because the officially signed copy of 1244 in some locked climate-controlled filing cabinet somewhere in the UN basement says Kosov(o/a) is part of the FRY doesn't mean that the text is static in a legal sense.  The Charter of the United Nations says the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a permanent member of the security council.  It said that in 1956, and it said it in 1986, and it says that in 2006.  That passage has never been amended.  But somehow Russia is a permanent member of the council?  This  isn't because of interpretation or opinion or goodwill on anyone's part, it's because the Vienna convention sets out the process that let Russia be considered the successor state of the USSR, and as such you mentally strike out the USSR and insert Russia in every instrument of international law on the books.  The Vienna convention keeps legal obligations in place without the need, as you imply, to change the letter of various laws through a formal amendment.   Likewise, the FRY's name might be on the Kyoto Protocol (for argument's sake, I'm not about to look it up), but that got automatically switched conceptually to "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003, and now will be switched to just "Serbia" when being read legally, even though nobody would deny the word "Yugoslavia" is inked onto the paper.  1244 falls under the same umbrella.  Does this make it any clearer? The Tom 00:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: thanks for taking the time to explain. I'd rather see this explicit law about what happens with successor states defined in a UN document, than just accept your claim as such. No offense. I may lack knowledge in the particular issue, hence I need to see the reference to it. Regards, ilir_pz 00:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No prob. Wikipedia's coverage of the area, and a link to the Treaty text: It's rather heavy going. 1244 probably is best covered by the Convention's Article 12. The Tom 01:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Ilir, why do you feel that I'm pushing POV pushing? I'm not the one using words like "Apartheid", "massacres", "mass executions", "Kosova" etc in order to use Wikipedia as a way to push your own political opinions. I'm simply trying to state the fact that Kosovo is still internationally formally recognized as a province of Serbia and currently under UN administration. This can hardly be called a POV.
::the words you mentioned above are legitimate enough, and have been used by the international community sources that you quote as well. Do not accuse me falsely. Furthermore Kosova is the way more than 90% of the population in Kosovo call the plac, why should that be any political opinion? ilir_pz 12:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Osli, the BBC reference you gave named Kosovo as a province of Serbia-Montenegro, not of Serbia alone. So do many documents of the EU and many other news stories on the internet. As I see it, Kosovo is regarded a province of Serbia-Montenegro by some people, and a province of Serbia by others. Because currently Serbia-Montenegro is the official country and not Serbia, I do not understand why you so fiercely oppose the current wording: Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro). Can you please explain? Cpt. Morgan 13:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I stated several times that the 1244 res is enough to state that de-jure part you are being so pushy about, but it does NOT say a word about Serbia, do not misinterprete my words. You tend to push for the latter, which neither did I, nor the 1244 Resolution mention. ilir_pz 14:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Your suggestion is more balanced than Osli's.  quoting this source, your statement is further confirmed: While legally still part of Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (passed June 10, 1999). Under UNSCR 1244, UNMIK assumes the supreme legal authority in Kosovo, while working to create "substantial autonomy and self-governance" in Kosovo and, eventually, facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status.  Osli wanna push further than this I guess? Hope not. Anyways, we are arguing about something that is due to change drastically in Autumn of this year. Then some will regret over spending so much time over something like this. ilir_pz 15:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "live with"? seems like it is of vital interest to you to waste so much time for this definition. Let me remind you, all this that you came to agree with ALREADY is in the text. Do you now believe me that you wasted precious time? The way it is specified in the text already explains the de-jure and the de-facto situation. That Kosovo is de-facto independent, you do not need to be very smart to see that. The de-jure part is also explained in the existing text in the main article. ilir_pz 09:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Both are fine with me as well, but I prefer the first one for no specific reason. Cpt. Morgan 16:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: If stated properly, I hardly think people will be confused. I Honestly do not understand why that is such a big deal to you. You underestimate wikipedia readers :) Cpt. Morgan 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I know what your opinion is. I disagree since A LOT of articles and documents talk about Kosovo as a province of Serbia-Montenegro. My last suggestion stated exactly that. With, in the second part of the sentence, a short description of the origin of Kosovo getting under UN control. What if we split it in two sentences:
"Kosovo is an autonomous province in southern Serbia and Montenegro. It came under the administration of the United Nations in 1999 when it was part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (UN Security Council Resolution 1244)." 
I really don't see how you can object to that? It is totally historically accurate. Cpt. Morgan 22:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Can you explain why you object to the use of the word autonomous? It is even stated exactly like that in the article on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? I think it is an important aspect of the current status of Kosovo. Cpt. Morgan 06:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Check also this page, Vojvodina, another autonomous province. Cpt. Morgan 06:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Kosovo is called an autonomious province in the following articles:Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Serbia, Subdivisions of Serbia, Template:Serbia and Montenegro and by many UN, EU and US documents. Example:. Historically, it was autonomous until Slobodan Milosovic claimed Kosovo in 1991. It is again autonomous now and should be named as such. I do not at all understand why you object to that. Does it confuse wikipedia readers? No. Is it historically incorrect? No. Is an albanian nationalist statement? No. I am trying to find a consensus here, but just disagreeing without arguments makes that very difficult. Cpt. Morgan 08:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you are joking on this part, Osli. Saying that Kosovo had any kind of autonomous character from 1991 is ridiculous. You are citing a wrong source. ilir_pz 09:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: My main objection is that it sounds like a sentence from a legal document rather than from an encyclopedia. But I would urge both of you to show some willingness in ending this dispute please.  We are talking here because Osli wanted the introduction changed (which is his good right and was also the wish of others before him), which ended in a reversion war because you (and others) did not agree. We will have to agree to a certain compromise now. Cpt. Morgan 11:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: on the contrary, Reinoutr, the existing formulation states as the situation really is on the ground. I am not sure I can call this formulation as non-enciclopedia formulation. It has to do with some law, hence a law-like term should be used..we have to deal with a Resolution from UN here, we cannot just skip the definition. An encyclopedia also clarifies the situation according to laws, not just "common" knowledge. Don't you think so? Oh and the existing definition, is a looooooong long compromised solution between Wikipedians from both parties included in the dispute, as well as foreign readers...until Osli73 showed his interest in allegedly bringing neutrality here. ilir_pz 17:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry I missed your statement above Ilir. My suggestion is to use one of the 5 options in the intro of the article and give a more thorough, judicial explanation later in the article (perhaps moving the heading politics to nr. 1 or 2 and explain it in detail right there?). In that way, the intro is kept concise and simple, but the article does explain the situation in more detail. I know that is not your preferred option, but I would like to remind you that reaching consensus between editors is a key part of Wikipedia, so everybody will have to give and take a little (see also Wikipedia:Consensus). The fact that a compromise was reached before must be taken into account, I agree, but it is not the only factor we have to deal with, especially since the wording chosen was far from ideal, as was also mentioned by Hectorian at the time that the compromise was reached (which is only 5 days ago, so far from established). Cpt. Morgan 20:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not have any grounds to suspect my opinions, as I did not give you any. I keep referring to Resolution 1244, which is not my favourite anyways, but for the sake of keeping a NPOV and referring the the document with highest importance in Kosovo. UNSCR should be revised, and if not, they cannot be implied as such just by intuition, or non-partisan websites' claims. You should keep the version according to the respective UNSCR, until another one is released, or UN informs the public about who inherits what from that resolution. ilir_pz 10:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No, I do not support any version that is not according to UN 1244 Resolution. And those versions you support, and you think that I should support violate that resolution. The resolution does NOT mention Serbia in any way "in,within,of,inside.." I am not aware of any newer resolution Osli, but feel free to bring it over. ilir_pz 10:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly because it is an intro, you should refer to UNSCR 1244 as it is, and provide the technicalities (if they make sense) in the separate section below. And not provide some made-up technicalities and PUSH (like you've been doing eversince you started your wiki-career) to just mention Serbia, and nothing else when referring to Kosovo...for the sake of some kind of neutrality, which I still do not understand still.ilir_pz 10:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: What is the truth? General truth? or YOUR truth? Do not use such words which have a broad meaning. If you study politics you should know that there is no such word there :). Insisting about what the UN Resolution ACTUALLY says is POV pushing? now that is some opinion. I have no further comment. ilir_pz 11:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure, cool. Thanks, cpt.Morgan.ilir_pz 10:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: FYI, I may have unintentionally thrown a bit of fuel on this fire by making an edit replacing "Serbia and Montenegro" with "Serbia" yesterday without noting this debate, and for that, I apologize.  In any case, speaking as someone with absolutely no allegiance to one national tradition or the other but a pretty decent grasp of international law, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties makes it clear that the rights and responsibilities held by FRY went to S&M and then went to the present Republic of Serbia.  Resolution 1244 would be read by any serious international lawyer to mean Kosovo is part of the de jure sovereign territory of whatever state is regarded as the successor state to FRY.  Now, I think it's pretty clear that the majority of the population there doesn't consider themselves part of the Serbian nation.  Fine.  But statecraft is full of blacks and whites (to a fault), and its clear that Kosovo is officially part of the state of Serbia, with 1244 only transferring administrative control to the UN.  This is a cold fact of life.  Being Irish doesn't prevent me from recognizing that Northern Ireland falls under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom under international law, and I should hope those Albanian contributors will recognize that publishing the legal circumstances of Kosovo's current situation as currently recognized by the international community does nothing to strengthen or demean the aspirations of Kosovars to self-determination. The Tom 23:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apology accepted. (at least from my side). With all due respect to your background and your personal opinion, we are dealing with a law here. And any serious international lawyer knows that for new definitions to be accepted, the law should be changed accordingly, and not according to some "common sense". Laws are laws. The current compromise on the definition of the intro part is supposed to reflect the current situation, which is defined by the UNSCR 1244, and has nothing to do with strengthening or weakening any aspirations of any particular group of people. My aim here is to only reflect the legal circumstances as they are defined by the law, and not according to some personal opinions, be that of mine, or anyone else. As I said several times before, my personal opinion is very different from what the UN Resolution states, and I have my reasons and facts for it, but that is not the point here. Best regards, ilir_pz 23:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, ilir pz. Perhaps I should have been clearer, though--this isn't a question of common sense.  International law is pretty explicit about successor states, and just because the officially signed copy of 1244 in some locked climate-controlled filing cabinet somewhere in the UN basement says Kosov(o/a) is part of the FRY doesn't mean that the text is static in a legal sense.  The Charter of the United Nations says the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a permanent member of the security council.  It said that in 1956, and it said it in 1986, and it says that in 2006.  That passage has never been amended.  But somehow Russia is a permanent member of the council?  This  isn't because of interpretation or opinion or goodwill on anyone's part, it's because the Vienna convention sets out the process that let Russia be considered the successor state of the USSR, and as such you mentally strike out the USSR and insert Russia in every instrument of international law on the books.  The Vienna convention keeps legal obligations in place without the need, as you imply, to change the letter of various laws through a formal amendment.   Likewise, the FRY's name might be on the Kyoto Protocol (for argument's sake, I'm not about to look it up), but that got automatically switched conceptually to "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003, and now will be switched to just "Serbia" when being read legally, even though nobody would deny the word "Yugoslavia" is inked onto the paper.  1244 falls under the same umbrella.  Does this make it any clearer? The Tom 00:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: thanks for taking the time to explain. I'd rather see this explicit law about what happens with successor states defined in a UN document, than just accept your claim as such. No offense. I may lack knowledge in the particular issue, hence I need to see the reference to it. Regards, ilir_pz 00:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No prob. Wikipedia's coverage of the area, and a link to the Treaty text: It's rather heavy going. 1244 probably is best covered by the Convention's Article 12. The Tom 01:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A suggestion based on US Congressional Research Service and US Council on Foreign Relations wording 

message: Why no one wrote anything about Tito in the article?
His role is very important, and I hope that all the Albanians and Serbs understand that. I suggest we add something after they unlock the article. What do the others think?
Gianni ita 07:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sure. His role was important.ilir_pz 12:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Turkish has been the third official language in Kosovo, until UNMIK decided to have it removed. Now turkish is only official in locations where Turks are a majority, but is not official as Albanian and Serbian are. ilir_pz 10:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Josip Broz Tito 

message: A short description of the dispute why the article is locked:
The current wording in the start of the article is:
Kosovo ... is a province under United Nations administration. By the UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is in principle defined as an autonomous province within the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro), but in practice it runs independently from the former.
The objections that have been raised to this wording are (regardless of who made the statement):
* It puts to much emphasis on the no longer existant Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY)
* Kosovo is not a province of FRY or Serbia and Montenegro, but of Serbia
* It mentions Serbia and Montenegro (SCG) as the follow-up of FRY
* As of next saturday, Montenegro will be independent
* It sounds more like a legal document than an introduction to the article.
A recently proposed alternative was (already taking into account the independence of Montenegro next saturday):
Kosovo is a province in southern Serbia. It came under the administration of the United Nations in 1999 when it was part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (UN Security Council Resolution 1244).
The objections that have been raised to this wording are (regardless of who made the statement):
* The UN resolution 1244 does not talk about Serbia or Serbia-Montenegro, but it talks about the FRY
* Serbia is not the follow-up of FYR
* Kosovo being a province of/in Serbia is not true since it is under UN control
* Kosovo being a province of/in Serbia is offensive for Albanians/Kosovars
* It violates the Constitutional Framework  of Kosovo, which nowhere states the wording suggested above. ilir_pz 11:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Current compromise version (with at the time de-jure instead of in principle) is of 25 May 2006. . Cpt. Morgan 12:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hooray Osli! Good job. Ilir, if "neutral" editors disagree with you, and you accuse them of P)V, then it's most likely that you're the one POV pushing. And in fact, you are. Why would Osli spread "Serb propaganda", if not Serb and has nothing to gain from it? He has said before he agrees with Kosovo independence, and I respect his opinion, even though it is not the same as mine. However, you can't ignore the evidence that he presented coming from very reputable sources. I'd advise you to stop such childish games, you are waging a losing battle my friend:)))) C-c-c-c 22:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: whatever. ilir_pz 00:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political status of Kosovo 

message: This page need to be updated as a result of the dissolution of the union between Serbia and Montenegro.
Stefan2 06:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Stefan2, it does. If you read the discussions above, you will see a long ongoing discussion on the topic however. Perhaps you can give your opinion on that? Cpt. Morgan 08:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: That is obvious, as Montenegro seceded from the union. This has actually been acknowledged too by Montenegro itself. E  Asterion u talking to me? 18:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Montenegro has not yet seceded from the union. There was a referendum, but this is not the end of the matter. The union is not yet formally dissolved by the federal authorities, Montenegro is not recognised as independent by the UN or other nation states and does not yet have a constitution. There is little doubt that it will get independence soon, but the issue is too complex to state Kosovo's status following Montenegro's independence vote.--الأهواز 01:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Ahwaz, according to Wikipedia Main Page, Montenegro has already declared independence and there has also been a separate declaration saying that Serbia is the legal and political successor of Serbia and Montenegro. I agree it is still too soon but I think everyone knows who is the user who started all this before the vote was not even over at the time. We can carry on discussing this matter tomorrow. I have to work in a few hours. Best regards, E  Asterion u talking to me? 01:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: quoting you, HRE, "1244 is actually, far more irrelevant" . Are you talking about the Resolution 1244, the UN Security Council resolution which is the law with the highest value in Kosovo? No further comment. ilir_pz 00:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If I had a nickel for every time you said "no further comment", but kept on going....I'd well....be able buy back Kosovo and make all the inhabitants billionaires:))). C-c-c-c 00:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I am sure none is interested in your dog-stories, and speculations, Mephistophilus. Thanks for dropping a line. ilir_pz 14:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don t wory be happy. Serbia is going to be independent, but first Kosovo must be regotnazied, after thate Vojvodina and Sandjak and then the word is going to know what is this serbs nationalistic creature "Serbia".
You see, ilir, I don't think much users are interested in your continued speaking about independent Kosovo, and all other types of spam on this dispute. I just don't understand people who give you attention and after 3 archived pages they still try to explain you some things that you can't, and will never understand. Just after reading your user page, I understood all that I had to understand about you (talking as pacifist, so you (I HOPE) understand why). I think your presence on this article and talk page will not improve the article or help other users to improve it.
To the "gentleman" above me: I can't say I'm happy but for certain that's not because of wikipedia and wikipedians. :D What are you prophet? Could you tell me how to get some money? :). Serbia is "nationalistic crature" but Serbia gained independence last? I'm sure our liders have some secret plan about Great Serbia now. But I don't care... If propeth says that Vojvodina will be independent, I will be Vojvodian(?), and I don't care about anything els. :D
I hava a suggestion. Create future wikipedia and create articles there. Maybe prophetic work give better results ;) --Mephistophilus 17:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: None is talking about the independence of Kosovo here. Read above and then comment. Thanks in advance, ilir_pz 23:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  State Union 

message: You all must see this:
* http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr91.html
If you think that we have problems with Kosovo status now, you should wait final solution which could be so complicated that our discussion here will never end. :)) For example, one of the proposed solutions is that Kosovo is in same time sovereign country itself and also under Serbian sovereignty. :)))) LOL I am sorry, but I really found this very funny. PANONIAN (talk) 02:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hehe, wasn't that suggestion the current one from the Serbian government? or the Draskovic's rhetoric? :)))) There are many funny suggestions I hear these days, indeed. ilir_pz 11:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kosovo final status

message: :Here is "my" preliminary version, which complies with all 3 points that User:Reinoutr asked me to comply with, before putting proposals for voting: 1) It does state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it does state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (FRY) as defined by 1244 Resolution and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future, as indicated by Contact Group statements:
:::::::Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is a region in southeast Europe. By the UN Security Council Resolution 1244 (adopted in 1999), Kosovo is placed under United Nations administration, though de-jure it is still defined as a part of the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but runs independently of the latter. De-facto the province is run by its Provisional Institutions of Self-Government and the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), based on the Constitutional Framework of Kosovo. Security in Kosovo is maintained by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) and Kosovo Police Service.
:::::::Talks on the future status of Kosovo started in Vienna on February 20 2006, between the Kosovo institutions' negotiating team, and the government of Serbiahttp://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/kosovo-metohija/index.php?id=20797 Resolution of the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia on a Mandate for Political Talks on the Future Status of Kosovo and Metohija. The negotiations are mediated by the international community, and enforced by the Contact Group . The future of the province is set to be determined by the end of 2006, and indications from the Contact Group show that "the settlement will have to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo" the majority of which seek recognition of full independence for the province.  
:The article should comply with the 1244 UNSCR as it is. Whoever cares (and I do not really) to know what happened with pieces of the former FRY, let them follow the link. It is unacceptable to imply definitions based on some personal opinion, which undermines the law with the highest importance in Kosovo. Furthermore, citing constitution(s) of Serbia (and Montenegro, when there was such a country) is irrelevant, as since 1999 the latter has absolutely no say in Kosovo, but it is the UNMIK  together with the Kosovo institutions that does. Anyways this formulation is of temporary in nature, as once the status is defined this all needs to be changed. But this one is good enough until then. Feedback (with no provocations) is appreciated,ilir_pz 13:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sold on your suggestion for a couple of reasons, but I think we're getting closer.  Without getting into that, though, I have a question for you to try and figure out what the deviation is--do you believe that for the years between 1244's passage and the dissolution of FRY that the Constitution of the FRY had some degree of de jure legitimacy with respect to Kosovo, as reserved by 1244, despite the fact that on the ground most people would agree the various instruments of UNMIK law served as the starting point? The Tom 15:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather hear you tell me where you disagree with my proposal. I do not think FRY or whatever its successor's names are, had any de-jure legitimacy. That is clearly stated in the 1244. The laws and decisions are made in Kosovo, by Kosovo's institutions and UNMIK and are confirmed by the UN Security council. Hope I understood your question. Pardon my lack of knowledge of English as a native-speaker. ilir_pz 22:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 

message: It's funny to me how you argue for days - but over funny things. It's like this: Serbia is the successor state of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro - which is in turn, the successor state of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. According to the 1244 Resolution - Kosovo is a temporarely UN-administered province of that Country. 
The other alternative to see things is not counting Serbia as the legal sovereign successor for Kosovo - then, the entire 1244 is rendered invalid, and the negotiations will have to be brought once more. This alltogether shifts back (before 1999) to the Constitution of Serbia and the unconstitutional ("illegal") declaration of Kosovo's independence in 1991/1992. Yet again - a province of Serbia.
:In this arguement, I think the sole purpose is to exclude the mention of Serbia in the context. As Kosovo might become independent (I'm kindah - not entirely - supporting this), then we'll put it. So, the claim of putting Kosovo as independent doesn't seem to Ilir pz as predicting (which he said that he's opposed), but mentioning that it's a southern province of Serbia is? Also, I think that a frequent thing is happenning in here - the side that fanaticly believes that is right - doesn't see that it's own claims are, essentially, POV themselves. All the best. Sorry for these harsh words, but your empty (read: empty) arguements are really, really... --HolyRomanEmperor 14:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither have I. On the other hand, I agree. Let's get on with the vote. E  Asterion u talking to me? 18:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguements, arguements, arguements 

message: This is something like when you, one group of people with many masks, want to decide to kill somebody. And you cannot kill him but you make a vote in which way to do that. People I think it is time to open your eyes and dont play with the fish in your kitchen. This Fish called Kosovo and it is swimming free despite all your oppose, neutral or support...
Kosovo is a non-status area in the Balkans, like Western Sahara, because the war betwen Serbia and the Kosovars. Now Kosovo is protected by UN administration (de juro) and NATO (de facto) forces according to Resolution 1244. 
In 1992 Belgrade parliament declared Kosovo a Province and the Prishtina parliament as Republic of Kosovo. Kosovo's autonomy was protected by the "veto right" of Prishtina parliament in the Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which was then destroyed in that same year.
Now the kosovars want to use their veto right which is now protected by the UN and want to use their autonomy to be an independent state. The Serbian goverment is trying to stop this process but the PISG are more or less independent from UN administration. 
Each Province has "veto right". The communist era term "Province" has nothing to do with the actual term "Province" in English language. This term is different from "province" in the sense that it meant Autonomous Province with veto right in SFR Yugoslavia. The second part of the definition, "Autonomous", is saying it is autonomous but not in every area (local self goverment, and cultural matters). Regarding "veto right" then you have to do with something else. This was only valid during SFRJ. And now the UN has taken the role of the SFRY to guarantee it. It was never taken from Serbia. The kosovars did not take their "autonomy" and "veto right" status from Serbia but from the SFRY, because the central pover resided not with Serbia but with SFRY. Since this central power is dead, the UN is now playing its role.
This is a normal proces of the new States. I dont know any state that was born out of the sky. The UN is the Doctor and is watching a new baby.
Upss!!! The baby is now 7 year old and is not allowed to walk alone, and do not need any more help from UN, only the security from NATO. His mother is dead (SFRY) and the cannibal Serbia want to eat it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs) 03:10, June 11, 2006
::NB: I have tried to translate this user's comment to my best knowledge. Please note this is certainly difficult (and at first I understood them as highly offensive). Basically this user believes that Kosovo has never been a province of Serbia, but of the SFRY, and therefore they obtained independence with the fall of Socialist Yugoslavia in 1992. This is indeed a very peculiar personal opinion, contrary to reality and international law, and should not be allowed to leak into the article namespace for obvious reasons (i.e. WP:SOAP). His original edit is still available here . Regards, Asterion, 09:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hahaha... This made my day. -- Krytan talk 04:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: All this oppose, neutral or support ...

message: These entries have been moved to Talk:Kosovo/Intro changes proposal for clarity purposes. Also to save load time (main talk page is well over the recommended size limit).E  Asterion u talking to me? 09:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro changes proposal 

message: This page has been protected for three weeks, longer than general wikipedia standards. However, since discussion is progressing on the subpage, I will assume that the page can stay protected for a while longer. Calwatch 23:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continue protection?