Talk:Shaitan

message: Removed from the article:
:"Shaïtan is also one of the names of the giant worms in the novel Dune by Frank Herbert."
I can't remember or corroborate this, so I removed it from the article.
:Well, read Dune again. Look at eg: "... fragments of melange, which Shaitan sometimes left behind in his passage." (Heretics of Dune), "Melange explosion brought Shaitan. No sandworm could resist a spice blow in its territory" (Chapterhouse Dune). It's how people call the worms after the death of Leto II, obviously after the word for Satan...
::shaitan and shai-hulud are both names for the worms in dune; shaitan is the name of the worms when the rage and attack in the early books, but then in heretics of dune (i never read chapterhouse), the worms are always considered to be shaitan, because their have some of leto ii's essence/consciousness in them, and are more malicious towards humans, and more intelligent (they were animals in books 1-4).
:Why has this information on Dune been removed? Unless there is a valid reason (and keeping this a religious article is not a valid reason, nor is it scholarly), please do not remove this information.
::To my knowledge, the Fremen never referred to the sandworm as Shaitan.  The Fremen referred to him as Shai'hulud or a Maker.  Sheeana was the first to name him Shaitan after he killed her family.  This was a shock to the Priests of the Divided God who considered Sheeana to be blessed because she could stand in the presence of the Divided God without being killed.  Although Sheeana was the Tyrant's "sandrider", she was not really a Fremen.  Being related to or decended from Fremen does not make you a Fremen.  This is proven by the fact that there was at times intermarriage between sietch and village, yet there was disrespect for the people living in the villages even though they were distant relatives.  What marks a true Fremen is following The Way.  I conclude that no Fremen ever referred to the sandworm as Shaitan.
:::Yes, Shaitan is the name for the divide god in the later books of the Dune series.  Leto II actually states that people will call him Shaitan when he returns.  Sheeana does this in "Heretics of Dune" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heretics_of_Dune) and in "Chapterhouse".  128.111.119.34 17:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shaitan in Dune 

message: shaitan (singular)/shayateen (plural; i dont know dual) is also a category of jinni (see here); should that be included? Nateji77 08:08, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc Info 

message: Much language used in this article, particularly the last section, conveys a large deal of the opinion of the writer outside of an academic discussion. Someone please clean this up. Ex.: "harsh wild earth"
:The article was obviously not written by one whose native tongue is English.
Speaking of:
"One should not underestimate the so called, “power of suggestion”, such as the Nazi war propaganda machine."
Should probably be reworded or removed. 
"This should not be taken to indicate that Iblis is weak in his abilities to tempt humans." conveys the same thing without the irrelevant Nazi reference, but I'm not sure if should be there at all.
--Hexalm 17:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language needs to be brought up to a higher academic standard 

message: Who removed those links and why?
:I'm not sure what you're referring to, but you can find out by using the "history" tab at the top of the article page. -- Beland 02:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links commented out 

message: I found this in a comment; I'm deleting that from the article and putting it here where it is less likely to cause confusion and more likely to get a response
:The term "Iblis" was most likely borrowed from the Spanish word "diablos" ("devil") by the Moorish invaders of Christian Spain. Doesn't make sense.  Iblis was written long before the Moorish conquest, please find a source.
 
Diablos was Greek in origin.  You are correct, this statement is wrongIthinkIwannaLeia (talk) 18:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  clean up...  

message: AlShaitan lured Adam and Hawwa' into eating from the tree. For that Allah damned AlShaitan, but delayed punishment until Doomsday. In Islamic view Shaitan was not cursed by God because of luring Adam and Eve but because of refusing to bow down to Adam , see Iblis
There are other middle eastern mythologies concerning Shaitan differing from common Islamic view , a famous example is Yezidi sect's beliefs , Yezidi's are believed to predate Islam and are believed to consider Shaitan a name of their deity.I shall verify what I have in memory  and add some information about their view of Shaitan .Please help if you have information about Yezidis.Pasha Abd 21:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree that the Yezidi view needs to be added. Skyerise (talk) 21:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mythology of Shaitan 

message: As I understand things Shaitan is the Islamic equivalent of Satan or the Devil or what have you. Should the  template be added? I mean, is this "part of a series of articles about Islam"? -Kode 22:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam Template 

message: The line "Why? It could be that humans are higher creation than angels, or Allah desired to expose Iblis, or both of these two reasons. There are some other reasons which are unknown because Allah has the Divine Plan and we humans are not preview to all of Allah's Divine Plan." is a very long way from NPOV, indeed it seems to assume that the existance of God is verifiable fact. This goes for a good deal of this article. It should be re-written in a more scholarly tone. (Yes, I am a grumpy atheist, bah humbug!)Sceptic-all 16:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-NPOV lingo 

message: I think there is some Christian-based bias in the entire introductory paragraph. We don't define Satan in terms of Islam's Shaitan, so why should the opposite be true? I think there should be a way of defining Shaitan for the first paragraph in a way that doesn't do so simply in term's of Christianity's version of the same idea. samrolken 06:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  pov check 

message: Quote from article: 
In Islam, Allah created everything in pairs. The pair for a human is a jinn, two beings of higher intelligence created with free will. In between the pair of jinn and human there could be lots of other creation with higher intelligence like jinn and human. Qu'ran tells that the jinn race was created long, long before the human race. And, for long time humans were nothing, not even mentioned.
This is confusing. Does the first reference to "pair" refer to the human - jinn combination, or does it mean that jinns are themselves a pair? And does "pair" here have anything to do with the customary use in these contexts of referring to male and female. Also, does "humans were nothing" mean they were of little consequence, or that they literally did not yet exist? And "long, long time..." is not accepted Wikipedia usage, no matter how evocative it might be in these religious contexts. I would edit this, but not being sure of the intended meaning, I will wait for some clarification. Myles325a 04:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jinns, genies and humans: to be clarified 

message: This article definitely needs some help from someone more knowledgeable.  Iblis=Satan=The Devil, while Shaitan (as I understand it) can equal both The Devil (Iblis)/a devil (i.e. an evil jinn) or Satan/a satan.  I've also heard the word used by Hindus in Indian movies, and I'd like to know more about that.  I'm pretty sure it was also used by the pagans in the movie Dragnet (1987 film), of all things!  Thus my suspicion is that the word is not limited to Islam.  Шизомби (talk) 18:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article certainly needs work, especially to differentiate between what is actually in the Qur'ān and what is commentary by others. One aspect that needs exploring is the relationship of Iblis to Shaitan. A brief look at the Qur'ān would suggest that there are more than one Shaitan and that Iblis was one of their number. Possibly Iblis has, because of his exalted state as one who was initially greatly favoured and given a place with the Angels, become synonymous with the leader of the Shaitan. This needs to be confirmed with references to a Islamic/Qur'ānic Scholar. From the Qur'ān it appears that the Shaitan were Jinn. Jinn had free will and therefore could choose to obey. Some or all disobeyed and became 'unbelievers' i.e. Shaitans. If there were an example of an obediant Jinn this could help complete this article? I can't find any references to Shaitan that originate outside of Islam or Islammic influence johnmark† 20:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bandh Darwaza and Purana Mundir were two Indian movies in which the word was used by Hindus.  I'm quite sure there's reference to obedient jinn in hadith, I seem to recall one about Muhammad claiming to meet some.  I'll have to see if I can turn it up.  But perhaps Genie would be the better article for that, here just a mention could be made. Actually, it occurs to me that it would be interesting to look into why in Islam the Devil is a jinn and in Judaism and Christianity, a fallen angel.  Was it a tradition adopted from another religion or sect? Шизомби 04:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad article

message: What, precisely, is the difference between Iblis and Shaitan? In the Iblis article (as well as in the Shaitan article) it is clearly stated that Iblis (in the former article) and Shaitan (in the latter) are both the Islamic equivalent of the entity known as 'the serpent' — or, Satan.  Now, is Iblis synonymous with Shaitan? And if so, why do two separate articles exist? Someone please clarify this matter for me. Grammaticus VII (talk) 15:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure that the relation between Iblis and Shaitan is synonymous with the relation between Lucifer and Satan. What I mean is, Iblis was Iblis, then he did something to put him in a bad position with the divine being, and then became Shaitan. Atebo88 (talk) 22:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

text: As a Muslim, this is what the majority Muslim belief is:
Iblis was an exalted one from among the jinnat (plural of jinn). He disobeyed Allah (SWT) and was banished to Earth and allowed to lead humans astray; but he and his followers will beg for mercy on the Day of Judgment but Allah SWT will deliver Iblis and his followers (both the jinnat and humans) to where he promised Iblis before he was expelled: hellfire.
Now, Iblis and all the jinnat who follow him (note: there are jinnat that do not follow Iblis) are referred to as shayateen (singular form is shaytan). Humans are sometimes also referred to as "shaytan" but that is as an adjective, similar to calling someone devilish or satanic.
Iblis is the personal name for one particular shaitan. In the language (also mentioned in the article) 'shaitan' is an adjective given to creatures (ins and jin) who are astray. Much like ˤIfrit عفريت is an adjective to those who are resourceful and/or cunning.
When Quran tells the story of the original Shaitan it refers to him as Iblis. this story of course is reminiscent of the Jewish tradition.
In the folk mind the difference is not immediately noticeable, however. 
The article does need to be written in a not-in-world tone :)
--Alif (talk) 16:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Someone knowledgeable about this (preferably a Muslim) ought to indicate that "shaitan" is not what the article seems to imply (that is, that "Shaitan" is the name of the Islamic devil), but rather a title (I'm not too sure about this, but from what I've read so far that seems to be the case). TheDestitutionOfOrganizedReligion (talk) 17:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iblis vs. Shaitan 

message: Hello,
The shayatin are often associated with the fires of the sun. For example in Suyutis " Al-Hay’a as-samya fi l-hay’a as-sunmya", shayatin seem to be created from the fire of the sun (samum?). Between the horns of a shaitan rises the sun, and sun-worship was often associated with the shayatin (not only with jinn as with statue-worship). Tobias Nünlist (2015) recorded what shayatin plague humans especially during mid-day when the sun is at the highest point. Does everyone got more material concerning the relation between shayatin and the sun? Also interesting, the shayatin are associated with the sun, and the angelic tribe of Iblis associated with the fire of the sun, but no source explicitly relates them both. Maybe someone found something about what here? I guess these things could improve the article.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:41, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Searching for additional material 

message: Hi,
Requesting you to have a look at 
* Superstitions in Muslim societies and also Talk:Superstitions in Muslim societies
Requesting article expansion help, if above topics interest you.
Thanks and regards
Bookku (talk) 06:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting help in article expansion  

message: A discussion is taking place as to whether the article :Superstitions in Muslim societies is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superstitions in Muslim societies until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Bookku (talk) 05:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomination of [[:Superstitions in Muslim societies]] for deletion 

message: Hello, posting this because a lot of this article feels like the information is suspect. At least one of the references says nothing related to its cited sources (Cites 17 and 18), and I'm getting the sense that much of the rest of the article is original research or describing information about jinns. Please consider this when updating or reading the article. Thank you! 99.199.24.188 (talk) 19:25, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Amira El Zein translates the "Shayatin" as "Demons" (the children of Iblis). Other authors might prefer translating them as "devils". Regarding the other source, it states: "' However,
the mulassirs point to two major differences between the 'regular' jinn and the
devils: l) while among the former there a¡e Muslims, christians, Jews, polytheists'
132 Ecounes R¡ctus
and heretics, the devils are exclusively atheists; 2) thejinn, though generally living
longer than humans, eventually die, while devils do not die unless Iblis dies (this
will happen only with the fi¡st blow of the trumpet at the end of the world). can
one, then, assume that the two are in fact one? Or that they are merely two extremes
of the same class of creatures?" 
The source itself is not vague, Islam is. Since Islam never established a clear demonology, there are blurring lines between several demons (Ifrit and Marid, Div and Ifrit, Jinn and devils). I am well aware that contemporary mainstream Islam regards "Shayatin" as simply unbelieving jinn, but this does not represent the Classical version of jinn and shayatin well, which are in some works clearly distinct entities (often the devils are oppositions to angels, while the jinn are the opposition to humans). For example in Suyutis "Al-Hay’a as-samya fi l-hay’a as-sunmya" (When I remember the source well), Shayatin do not appear in any relation to the jinn. In many works Jinn are just something mysterious and occult, one might encpunter in dark places, while the Shayatin are clearly opposing God. In matters of occultism, they are often conflated. Generally, when it comes to the issue of invisibility, shayatin and jinn are mconflated, but only in this regard. This is also confirmed by Amira El Zein. Most of the article was once written by me, after I split up the "Devil (Islam)" article, which was not possible to distinguish between devils, jinn and Iblis properly, because it was based on the false but famous assumption, the Shayatin are "simply unbelieving jinn". So please explain there was Original Research done?--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many of these sources need to be verified; entire article possibly needs revamp or deletion 

message: Greetings, I see you are really bothered by the images. Your arguement was, the Siyah Kalam are not representing Muslim art, because it is of Buddhistic or Shamanistic origin. Siyah Kalam might have been of Turkic, Persian or Mongol origin and used Indian Art-Style, when converting to Islam. Siyah Kalam also might have been a Muslim their whole life and just used the Eastern Art-Style in his paintings. Non-Arab Art-Style is common among Muslim Art, when depicting supernatural creatures, probably because in Arab regions, prohibition against iconographical depictions usually have been taken more serious there. But this does not change the fact, this is Art done by Muslims, to represent parts of their beliefs. It seems however, you disagree with this point. Taken from the edits on the Dajjal-article, I remember you stating, that Islam should be based on the first three generations of Muslims. However, this is a very narrow definition not reflecting the actual Muslim Legacy. Articles are about much more than just reflecting the alleged beliefs of the Sahaba and Taibun. And that exactly they believed can not be precisly reconstructed anyways. Your approach would exclude much of Muslim heritage, for example, Siyah Kalam Arts in this specific case. If you however, disagree with this, it would be recommanded to discuss this issue on the talkpage first, or even the WikiProjectIslam in general, as this is a disagreement with the very structure of the Project. With best regards --VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:36, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I remember ""Islam should be based on the first three generations of Muslims"" from the Dajjal article, as I stated. If I am mistaken, I am genuinely sorry and beg your pardon. Maybe I have confuse you. The images are frequently a subject of debate and I am, just like many other Wikipedians, are aware that images of living creatures are upsetting for many Muslim users in our time. But this does not change anything about the fact, these are depictions of certain entities related to Muslim belief, even made by Muslims themselves. We all can not decide that Muslims believe or should believe. When an artist decides to make a pictural depcition of his faith, we have an Islamic depiction of this. No matter how much we oppose it or not. None of us can decide that Muslims are supposed to believe and neither you nor me can define Islam in accordance with our own interests. And I am sure you have the best intentions but I think by your claim that "Folklore" does not represent Islam accuratly, is kinda problematic, since "Islam" is the religion Muslims believe in. You can not just say, Muslims believe in X and when fail to contain that Muslims actually believed in. Contemporary Orthodoxy is just another of many facetes of Islam and Muslim belief and we can not decide on our own, which one reflects Islam better. The same issue remains in Christianity too by the way. We have, for example, many depictions of Lucifer remaining in hell, while "Orthodox" (or Catholic) Christianity usually does not teach this. Orthodox clericy mostly tries to impose their "correct faith" upon the masses, often in contrast to their actual beliefs. This happens in all religions with a religious authority. But since Wikipedia is neutral, we do not disctinguish between "official religion", and "actual religion". As long as it is clear, this is not a "official shaitan"-depiction, but merely an interpretation I see no troubles. I am further convinced, people who are interested in Islam or any religion, learn, that images of the supernatural depend on the fantasy of the artist.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:54, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Additionally: "The next generation of Muslims after the ṣaḥābah, who were born after Muhammad died but knew personally at least one ṣaḥābah, are called Tābi‘ūn (also "the successors") and the generation after them, who knew at least one Tābi‘, are called tābi‘ al-tābi‘īn.[3] The three generations make up the salaf of Islam." This basically just confirms what I objected earlier. It is not appropriate to reduce Islam to the Salafi-ideology that Islam merely consists of these three generations, or better to say, what is perceived as them. And Orientalism is not on the same level as Xenophobia (Islamophobia in disguise).--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 18:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  So Islam is, that Sultan-abdullah-hindi, states that it is? And if he invokes the name of 1.8 billion people, it is true? Instead of relying on supportless claims, provide evidence for your claims, instead of going into personal mode and looking for reasons outside of yourself, not to be understood. Best regards--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:49, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

text: I'd personally like to take Paul and his teachings out of Christianity, but alas, the theologians have decided otherwise. We are reporting on current views, not archaic ones (except as history). Skyerise (talk) 21:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  images 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: No consensus, defaulting to no move.  No such user (talk) 08:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Shaitan →  – Match first mention of topic in lead sentence; also Shaitan is a Yezidi deity, this space is needed for an article on that deity. Skyerise (talk) 14:53, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wouldn't use "demons in Islam", because the term "demons" is not quite defined. For a short time we also translated "shayatin" to "demons, but deicided to switch back translating "shayatin" as "devils" instead, since the term demons is sometimes used for "jinn" (usually by researchers investigating this matter on folklore and demonic possession) and "div". We also have a section about Demons in Islam in the demon article. Although the Shayatin are demons, not all demons are shayatin, rather the shayatin are their own type of genus within Islamic cosmology and mythology.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 19:23, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

text:  I would like to make an objection to the analysis of that statistic: When people search for "Shaitan" they probably refer to "THE Shaitan" (Iblis) not to the minor devils this article is about. Therefore, I don't think the statistic is a good representation, since it represents two different topics (one time, Satan, the other time, devils). "Shaitan" doesn't exist in Yazidism. It is simply a term Yazidis avoid, likewise they avoid "Teufel", if they live in German. But it is not an entity on its own.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 15:43, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 14 January 2022 

message: Just to clarify this matter for every editor:
 claimed the sources it the lead wouldn't back up the claims. Amira EL Zein (cited) states: "The prophetic tradition expands on this issue, clearly differentiating between the three kinds of intelligent beings according to their dwelling in hell or in paradise: "One kind of beings will dwell in Paradise, and they are the angels; one kind will dwell in Hell, and they are the demons; and another kind will dwell some in paradise and some in hell, and those are the jinn and the humans."--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disporving the claim made by Eternal83 

message: A continuation of the discussion from my user Talk page:
Thank you for the detailed reply. I don't think anything you said differs from what I suggested as the right path forward for the article. You acknowledge yourself that the common, or as you said "simplified", view is a valid one, even though the view you presented on the article is one that aligns with your personal opinion. As such, I don't see how my suggested compromise is contrary to what you're saying or problematic in any way. Since we are talking about Shayatin, I don't want to get sidetracked into the nature of Iblis or the free will of angels for the purpose of this discussion, although I appreciate your diligence in presenting the differing views on that. I would, however, still need to see the exact Islamic sources that mention explicitly and unambiguously the existence of Shayatin as a separate species. I don't know Turkish so I can't read the one you provided. With regards to the sources I listed above, I agree that some are more credible than others, however, my main point is not argue which view is correct, but to demonstrate that the view of the majority (whether it is the most correct or not) is different than what is written on this page. The "simplified" view is what most Muslim children learn in school, grow up with, and die believing, so this is why in my opinion, it must be mentioned. Here is what I'm suggesting as the opening text:
Shayāṭīn (شياطين; devils or demons), singular: Shaiṭān (شَيْطٰان) are evil beings in Islamic belief, inciting humans (and jinn) to sin by “whispering” (وَسْوَسَة, “waswasah”) to the heart (قَلْب qalb). The common belief among Muslims is that devils are from among jinn and humans, however other views suggest that they are a third type of invisible being, besides the noble angels and jinn, that are grotesque and created from hell-fire.
The rest of the article can be tweaked to align with this style, where the view of the majority is stated, and the other "sophisticated" views care cited as separate. Like this we would be presenting a healthy diversity in viewpoints, while not omitting the view commonly held view. Let me know what you think of that and we can make these changes for the time being, pending further discussion and examination of sources. Eternal83 (talk) 03:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  We cannot know what "most Muslims" actually learn at school, although we might have an impression, except you have reliable data about this. I would love to see any type of poll or similar representative statistics about his. I remember (Friedl, E. (2020). Religion and Daily Life in the Mountains of Iran: Theology, Saints, People. Vereinigtes Königreich: Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 86) that some modern Muslim teachers speak of jinn instead of devils. However, this doesn't change much, since there are "devils" as a unique creature on their own in Islam (poems, exegesis, qisas, etc.). Even if most Muslim schools teach something deviant from actual Muslim theology, poems, writings, this shouldn't affect the article, since Wikipedia is based on academical research, not serving a pedagogical purpose to promote certain teachings. I agree, Muslim scholars teaching something contrary to actual Muslim tradition is seriously bad. When it is even more important that independent sources offer reliable knowledge. Although I apprecaite your suggestion for compromise, I think it must be declined, since it is neither backed up by any source (even contrary to other sources), missing the purppose of the article (the article is not about the adjective "shayatin" referring to something evil, but about the concept of devils as the offspring of Iblis.) Neither can we rewrite the article, since, as the article is about devils and not about jinn, most sources do not reflect the issue about "evil jinn". The hadith section solely speaks about Iblis, his followers and devils, how they tempt into sin etc., not about jinn who, for example, eat dunk, the "brothers from the jinn" or how their types and if some of them fly through the air. The sources for the Quran select and show how devils appear throughout the Quran. And unlike jinn, who have free-will, the devils are frequently sent by God. This cannot be said about jinn. Next, we have the interpretation section, in which we have the notion that devils, for example, live longer than jinn. How do you imagine to rewrite this so it fits the idea that jinn and devils are the same? Even those who agree that devils are a "type" of jinn although not exactly jinn, point out the differences between jinn and devils (like immportality until Judgement Day for the devils). Abu Mufti makes a very clear distiction, but I wonna recheck this this week, when I go to the libary, hope they still have the book, I wonna quote it here, so eveyone can read it. I couldn't find an acessable online version and someone already made a quotation request elsewhere. Devils are also linked to blasphemy and the unholy. For example, reading the Quran is thought to ward off devils. How can this be applied to evil jinn, when evil jinn can convert to Islam after reading the Quran? If jinn and devils are equal, this is a contradiction, and not in Islamic literature in general, but in some teachings (whose who equate devils and evil jinn). Because the sources often speak clearly about devils and not about jinn/evil jinn, I don't think it is possible to simply rewrite the article, nor is it useful since the article is about Iblis' offspring not about jinn. Here is the translation for the Turkish source btw: "Commentators have put forward different views on the interpretation of the word Jann. It is possible to collect these views in the following five points: 1. Ancestor of jinn. According to those who hold this view, the Jann and its descendants, and Iblis and his descendants, the devils, are completely separate groups of jinn. Because jinn die, they are divided into believers and unbelievers. The devils, on the other hand, will die with Iblis, and they are all infidels. The majority of scholars are of this opinion. 2. [It is] Iblis. Hasan-i Basri, Katade b. Diâme and Mukātil b. Scholars like Solomon adopted this view. Some authors argue that giving the meaning of Iblis to Jann is related to a story in the Old Testament (see TA, XI, 10). Because in the Old Testament, when he [Iblis] was in the Garden, Hz. It is stated that the serpent, which represents the evil spirit of the Jews, deceived Eve (Genesis, 3). It is known that this snake is Iblis. The same interpretation is given to the Qur'an (al-A'raf 7/11-12), which states that the Jann was created from fire and that Iblis was superior to Adam on the grounds that he was created from fire and that he did not prostrate to him for this reason. It is also possible to stop. 3. A group that has been transformed into a snake from a jinni. 4. Synonym of jinn, [a] type of jinn other than devils. 5. In the Qur'an, Hz. Creatures mentioned by the angels (al-Baqara 2/30) with whom they battled on earth and shed blood before Adam was created." (https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=4&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=51&tDisplay=yes&Page=5&Size=1&LanguageId=1). Here, we have many different usages, only Hasan al-Basri's line conidering devils, jinn, Iblis to be all the same, which is considered a minority view. If many Muslim teachers really teach this view, when they are obviously teaching a minority view, at least compared to earlier Muslim scholars.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 20:08, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  However, I realized, we could remove this 3/4 classes- entirely. I don't think this is a relevant information at all. And since there is no consens within Islam either, and it depends on how you count (for example, if you include divs and afarit), you could came up with even more. Or what about the Houri? How do they fit into this system. I think this number should be removed entirely. I hope this satisfies both sides of the arguement. I would rewrite this immediatly.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is the quote from the commentary on Abu Hanifa's writings: "This topic is inspired by a passage in Abu Mufti's commentary on al-Fiqh al-absat, ->ms. C. fol 31v 12ff./ed. Kautari 55,2ff. The commentator provides new material and refers to the Suras 6, 149/150 and 5, 48/53: all angels, with exception of Harut and Marut (->Sura 2,102/96) were created to obey, but all devils, with exception of Ham Ibn Him Ibn Laqis Ibn Iblis, were created for evil. Finally, the commentator adds (I. 657) that "man and ginn (al-ins wa-l-ginn) are created with their nature (fitra)"."--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 01:58, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added a note that Mu'tazilah were in the general opinnion that jinn whisper to humans. Given that this is a line followed by al-Farabi, ibn Sina, and later (although he declared "takfir" on them) Ghazali, and ibn Arabi, who don't distinguish between devils and jinn, it looks like equating jinn with devils roots in Hasan al-Basra's account on jinn and devils. Since he equated Iblis with al-Jann, it makes sense what those who adhere to his view, do not distinguish between them. However, this still doesn't seem to be the general opinnion among Muslims when we look up Muslim sources.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:45, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

text:  Not wanting to bomb too much input here, but this might also be noteworthy: "Now, the definition of "man" by reference to the familiar form of the human body succeeds in differentiating the object defined from all other bodily objects. A taxonomy of these is provided by al‐Baghdādī, who explains that bodies (sg. jism) are divided into those that grow and those that do not grow. The former are subdivided into plants and animate beings (ḥayawān), which are further subdivided into those that are sensible to us and those that are normally insensible to us, but which may become sensible in the hereafter or in exceptional situations. The latter subdivision, that of insensible animate beings, includes four classes (jins): angels, houris, jinn and demons." This article is about the concept of a human being in Ashariyya thought. (Classical Ash'arī Anthropology: Body, Life and Spirit. Von: Shihadeh, Ayman, Muslim World, 00274909, Oct2012, Bd./Jhrg. 102, Ausgabe 3/4) Here, demons/devils are listed again as separate to jinn.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 01:21, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 vs 4 intelligent beings 

message: The Quran section has a single source: YOUNG, M. J. L. (1966). "THE TREATMENT OF THE PRINCIPLE OF EVIL IN THE QUR'ĀN". Islamic Studies. 5. Retrieved November 7, 2021.
This source, if you ignore the citations, is only 5 pages long. And some of the wording in the article is just as long as the sparse mentions in the article.
Example, the current state on Wikipedia: "According to Quran 28:36-38, God made the devils slaves for Solomon," The corresponding section of the journal article: "God was able to enslave them to force them to work for the believing Solomon (XXXVIII : 36-8)"
Also note the chapter of the Qur'an cited is 38, but here on Wikipedia it's listed as 28.
The journal article is from 1966, by someone seemingly Western. It was published in Islamabad, but the sources cited within skew towards people with other European names. Islamic commentators are rarely mentioned (and even when they are, it's through reference to another Western source, with only one exception), and instead the Qur'an is cited directly most of the time, seemingly making it mostly the interpretation of a (very probable) non-Muslim orientalist. For instance, one thing that I've found to be a common source of confusion/controversy among Western commentators, but extremely rare among Muslim commentators, is whether Iblis was a fallen angel (a discussion of this is another topic, but it's just a flat "no" for Muslims). It's just presented straight as a legitimate view for discussion and building upon in this journal article.
Views in the article are not differentiated by where they came from (such as by sect). But again, most of them seem to be not Muslim views, but the views of the author and other orientalists.
Any of these things on their own might not necessarily make it a bad source, but put together, I find it a very poor choice to present as representing the (or any) Muslim view of shaytan in the Qur'an.
And since the Quran section is lifted solely from this article (and not even properly copied), I don't think it can be considered accurate/reliable. Elainexe (talk) 17:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The source in question deals with the idea of evil in Islam in general. Devils are subject tot he concept of evil. If there is a better source to analyze evil spirits (distinct from jinn since this is not the jinn article), you are welcome to add them here. The text is from 1966 which is great, since this means it is less influenced by Salafism and their biases. Be aware that a lot of metaphysics changed at the end of the last century due to the influence of Salafism. For example that Satan is "not a fallen angel but one of the jinn" is pretty much Salafistic (if you drop the tradition of Hasan who merged jinn and shayatin into one categroy of being). I see there your objection is coming from, but please make sure to use sources and instead of critizing "Western scholarship" to hold a more critical attitude towards Salafi-scholars. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 14:15, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

text: A second source, essentially repeating the same points in question, confirms the paper. Is there another source which elaborates on a distinct view regarding the devils? VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 02:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quran section has dubious single source