Talk:Dechristianization of France during the French Revolution

message: Some mention of Jews and Protestants for comparison? --84.20.17.84 10:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-Catholics 

message: Let's replace the infobox with one for the French revolution.  JeffBurdges 10:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add that infobox as well, but the religious persecution box should not be removed.  There is no question that this matter constituted religious persecution. Mamalujo 19:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi there. I don't mean to be a pain, but I think the religious persecution infobox is hardly warranted. While I fully agree that the Dechristianisation of France during the French Revolution produced religious persecution, the subject of the article is not religious persecution in France during the Revolution in itself, and neither is the focus it is being given as an article. Of course there is room for the article to include mention of resulting persecution as a consequence of the whole process (in its own section, in related articles lists, etc), but if as Wikipedia editors we understand Infoboxes to be "... designed to be placed into main articles related to the topic area" and "...a broad class of templates commonly used in articles to present certain summary or overview information about the subject" (quoted from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes), I don't think the infobox on Religious Persecution and Discrimination should be inserted here. Otherwise, we'll end up with all Wikipedia articles being clogged with a dozen infoboxes on related topics. I mean, the Albigensian Crusade article (and all Crusade articles, for that matter) deals with religious persecution, but I wouldn't really add the template there, either, since it would not be central to the article, and it wouldn't serve to summarize any of the points or to link the article to a common "mother" article. Cheers! ;) Dr Benway (talk) 10:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Descrimination? 

message: The multiple policies supported by different parties, at different times, at different levels of government include:
*The traditional Gallican policy that the Church of France should be subject to the French government rather than a foreign pontiff.
*That there should be no privileges in the new Revolutionary France, One and Indivisible. The abolition of the Church's feudal privileges was of a piece with the abolition of the feudal privileges of the nobility.
*That all classes and orders should contribute to straightening out the financial disaster which had initially caused Louis XVI to convene the Estates-General of 1789.
*Adoption and enforcement of a policy of religious toleration.
*Creation of a common patriotic ceremonial and symbolism.
*Anti-clericalism.
*War with the Pope, as a temporal sovereign whose troops had killed a French officer on the grounds of the French Embassy in Rome.
*Support of an alternate religion, especially the Cult of the Supreme Being. (The Cult of Reason was the opposing program of the Hébertists, who never took power.)  This was limited to November 1793 and some months of 1794.
Only the support of an alternate religion has been  unanimously called de-Christianization by everybody, then and since.
Comments:
From looking through some of the sources, my basic issue here is the current focus on violence, and whether all of these were actually policies.
The piece by Frank Tallet states regarding the policies:
:These ranged from the removal of plate, statues and other fittings from places of worship, the destruction of crosses, bells, shrines and other ‘external signs of worship’, the closure of churches, the enforced abdication and, occasionally, the marriage of constitutional priests, the substitution of a Revolutionary calendar for the Gregorian one, the alteration of personal and place names which had any ecclesiastical connotations to more suitably Revolutionary ones, through to the promotion of new cults, notably those of Reason and of the Supreme Being.
Regarding the constitutional Church, he says:
:There is however no doubt about the success of the dechristianizers’ attack upon the constitutional church: the state had created it, and the state could destroy it.  Unlike the attack upon the objects of the ‘’culte’’ there was no popular resistance to this assault on the representative of the faith, just as there had been no popular uprising to prevent the loss of the refractory clergy earlier on.  Threatened with death (occasionally), arrest, imprisonment, conscription or the loss of their income (more usually), perhaps 20,000 constitutional priests abdicated and handed over their letters of ordination.  An unknown number of others simply ceased their clerical functions; and between 6,000 and 9,000 married. 
Spielvogel states:
:In its attempt to create a new order, the National Convention also pursued a policy of dechristianization.  The word saint was removed from street names, churches were pillaged and closed by revolutionary armies, and priests were encouraged to marry.  In Paris, the cathedral of Notre-Dame was designated the Temple of Reason. In November 1793, a public ceremony dedicated to the worship of reason was held in the former cathedral; patriotic maidens adorned in white dresses paraded before a temple of reason where the high altar once stood.  At the end of the ceremony, a female figure personifying Liberty rose out of the temple.  As Robespierre came to realize, dechristianization backfired because France was still overwhelmingly Catholic.
If these are the sources we are going by, it seems we should focus on the same issues as them, which appears to be much less on the violence and more on the social events and attempting to institute a cult of Reason.  I notice Tallet also says there is a great deal of disagreement over how much popular support existed at the time. Mackan79 (talk) 16:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please incorporate the material that you feel is needed.  As to the earlier version, there are some plain factual errors there.  For example, it may be the case that religious toleration was proclaimed but it obviously was not practiced.  I think rather than reincorporate those unsourced statements, we should stick to sourced material.  You are correct that the sources focus on more than just the violence and the suppression of Christianity.  Please add the additional material and when I get around to editing the article again, I will as well. Mamalujo (talk) 16:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Policies

message: I've removed the following lines which have been marked as "Citation needed" since appx. 2007. The cite notices disrupt the article and I don't believe the sentences are completely necessary to an understanding of the subject. Anyone who can reinsert with valid sources is encouraged to do so.
From "The Church under the Ancien Régime" section:
::"The Church however had difficulties and these were greatly added to by a deep dissatisfaction within its own ranks.  A wide gap in living standards existed between members of the clergy.  Senior positions in the Church were occupied by members of noble families, giving them the benefit of the Church's wealth base and enormous annual revenues.  In stark contrast, the majority of priests in small communities lived in perpetual poverty. "
From "The Revolution and the Church" section:
::"In an attempt to stem the growing unrest...." (Originally began opening sentence.)
and
::"One version of the oath had the clergy swear to "hatred" of the nobility. " (originally ended 1st paragraph.)
SteveStrummer (talk) 23:26, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentences requiring citations removed, 2010

message: Please, can somebody traslate the page in Italian language?  Some people just know how the French revolution was an antichristian government. The people must know the Truth. Thanks--78.12.56.165 (talk) 09:12, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You shouldn't think of wikipedia as a propaganda outlet. Anyway, the dechristianisation process wasn't the ultimate goal or reason of the Revolution, nor were all revolutionaries in favor of dechristianisation (the most prominent personality of the Revolution, Robespierre, stopped the dechristianisation process), not to mention that the whole ordeal was relatively short-lived anyway, and stemmed from the resentment people felt towards the clergy which had abused its power for centuries.--Munin75 (talk) 23:08, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a short Italian article now.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.203.175 (talk) 10:56, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian 

message: I think that this article's biggest weakness is its lack of citations. So one way that I will contribute is by adding sources where they are needed. I've found an article called THE FRENCH REVOLUTION AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH by Betros, Gemma that I can use to support the first two statements (about the Catholic Church's amount of property and income) that are missing citations.
I also noticed that the section titled "The Revolution and the Church" is much longer than all the other sections, so I'll try to break it up into a couple of different sections.
Bibliography
Betros, Gemma. "The French Revolution And The Catholic Church." History Review 68 (2010): 16-21. Academic Search Complete. Web. 19 Feb. 2017.
Melleuish, Greg. "Liberalism And God." Institute Of Public Affairs Review 61.3 (2009): 36-38. Academic Search Complete. Web. 19 Feb. 2017.
Van Kley, Dale K. "Christianity As Casualty And Chrysalis Of Modernity: The Problem Of Dechristianization In The French Revolution." American Historical Review 108.4 (2003): 1081-1104. Academic Search Complete. Web. 19 Feb. 2017.
Aaannnnnnaaa (talk) 01:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing plan 

message: I've reverted this edit, which had an edit summary stating (redundant content to body of article).  Can we have an intelligible reason for the content relocation, please? Xenophrenic (talk) 23:51, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Relocation of content

message: Is there any reason why I shouldn't translate engrish back into English? Xenophrenic (talk) 21:09, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Xenophrenic (talk) 14:24, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The cited source says: . I reword again to conform to the source. Here the new reword .--Jobas (talk) 03:41, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Your more recent changes aren't as unintelligible as prior changes.  Only a minor grammatical fix is needed now.  (And FYI: it's "the cited source says", not "the source cited"; and it's "conform to the source", not "to confirm the source".) Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 07:40, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Gibberish

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thread_title:  External links modified