Talk:First Baptist Church (Hammond, Indiana)

message: A editor just added a totally disputed tag to the page. For interested parties on the sources visit www.Chicagotribune.com search archives for Jack Hyles and you will find the sources in the article. To read the articles you must register.Arbusto 05:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A note on sources 

message: I attended First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, as a young sailor during the Fall of 1984. For years, I had heard of Jack Hyles (I remember my pastor giving high school graduates from his school a copy of Hyles' "Blue Denim and Lace."). I was quite willing to make the 100-mile bus ride from Great Lakes, Illinois to First Baptist Church every Saturday so that I could attend church services there on Sunday. 
There are many things about First Baptist Church of Hammond that have not been mentioned in this article, but the article is lop-sided with controversial negative statements regarding the church--criticism identical to that found on the page regarding Jack Hyles. Considering the all these controversies regard the career of Jack Hyles, it is odd that little else is said about a church that is more than 100 years old. It is all the more odd, considering that I never heard of any of these allegations until 1988. All those years that I heard of Jack Hyles, and heard his detractors, but no one brought these kind of charges into the public until then. They sound so out of character for him. 
The statements made by the news media would have more weight with me if I had not witnessed their attacks on Jack Hyles for several years prior to these allegations. They always were looking for something to bring him down. Remember the time that FBCH gave out chicks (that is, baby chickens) to the Sunday School students? A newspaper editor called Hyles directly and accused him of cruelty to animals. Pastor Hyles replied that he had done even worse. The editor asked what he had done. Hyles replied, "I ate their mother!" Something similar happened when the Sunday School gave away guppies (small fish) to the Sunday School students. The newspaper was up in arms about the little fishes flopping around in the dwindling puddles in the parking lot. 
When my sister was an aide to Pastor Hyles, about the same time that these allegations began to surface, I asked her about the  allegations of sexual misconduct. She said they were untrue. She still attends FBCH, along with her husband (who she met at Hyles-Anderson Christian College) and her 4 children. Her two oldest children are now students in the day school run by FBCH. 
I think that it is appropriate to be highly skeptical of such scandalous accusations against someone of Jack Hyles' stature. For the reason I mentioned, newspaper reports aren't very useful. Hyles attracted a lot of enemies, so it is natural there would be people who would try to destroy his reputation. Of more weight is the word of Robert Sumner, a man with whom I have had direct, though brief,  communication. I have never attended Pastor Sumner's church, or sat under his preaching, but I have corresponded with him via mail and a Web forum. From what I know of him, he is an honest man, but I simply don't know either him or Hyles well enough to decide who is more reputable. The article mentions court cases brought against Hyles, but it does not state the deposition of those cases. As far as I know, no one was able to convince a jury that Jack Hyles was responsible for all these things of which he is accused. 
This issue is highly controversial, even within Christian fundamentalism. I know of several leaders within fundamentalism who never spared Jack Hyles from criticism. Several of his fellow preachers around the world simply did not like him, and easily accepted these reports when they came out. But, there are many other people who are fiercely defensive of Jack Hyles. It is not easy to tell who is fighting for the truth. 
Yes, there is a lot of controversy surrounding Jack Hyles, but all this encyclopedic article has done is repeat a lot of rumors and reports; there is very little fact-finding. For example, I am told that the controversy over the seeing-eye dog was instigated by the dog relieving himself in the church aisle. And, in a group with 20,000 people, there probably are going to be a few bad apples, so naming some doesn't mean much. 
There should be some mention in the article of the number of buildings and ministries operated by the church, and of the range the bus routes cover. It would be nice to add some history, such as the fact that the neighborhood surrounding FBCH used to be a red-light district, which the church under Jack Hyles bought and converted to church buildings. Indeed, the Sailor Ministry building, which I have visited, used to have such a sordid history. 
It would also be good to mention that if the Spanish Ministry at First Baptist Church of Hammond were to form their own church, it would be one of the largest congregations in the nation. 
Pooua 07:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add positive information. Just make sure they are sourced. Arbusto 02:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  BTW: The whole thing about "the seeing-eye dog was instigated by the dog relieving himself in the church aisle" I don't buy. Even if it did happen why ban a person from church because of the dog's mistake- a dog he needs. Then why not even take the time to explain your position with something other than a "no comment." If you have a uncitation it should be included, but without a concrete source to back it up from a paper it seems like something told to justify it after the act. Arbusto 19:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete Article 

message: Since it's mentioned in this article, some may be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Preying from the Pulpit.  --Rob 08:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Preying from the Pulpit]] on AFD 

message: The following was summarized and added to the article:
:"Another state witness was a former security officer at the church, who testified he saw Ballenger fondle a young girl in 1978 or 1979 in a Sunday school room after being called to the room by a female teacher. He said he confronted Ballenger, who was in a "trancelike state" with his hand under the girl's dress."
:"Three women said Thursday they were fondled by a Hammond church deacon who was convicted in March of molesting a 7-year-old girl in 1991 in a Sunday school class."
:"The third victim, a 20-year-old woman from the Columbia Center public housing project in Hammond, told how she would ride a bus Sunday mornings to the First Baptist Sunday school, and that A.V. Ballenger was her driver. She described the church as "a good church" she enjoyed attending, and said she liked Ballenger. But she said there were several times when both were on the bus alone that he would run his hand inside her dress and fondle her private areas."
The testimony from two girls relating to Hammond is a part of the past. Arbusto 00:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was Ballenger ever charged with molesting the "two other girls"?  How can you say the other two "were molested".  Did you witness it happening yourself?  Vivaldi (talk) 03:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you read the source you would know that four girls (including the 7 year old), a church worker, and a former security guard testified at the trial.  Arbusto 03:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why didn't you answer the question?  Was Ballenger ever charged with molesting the "two other girls"?   You are also now stating an outright lie.  The other 3 girls did not testify at Ballenger's trial.  Not only that but the word "trial" didn't even appear at all in the source you gave.  Do you know why Ballenger was not ever charged with molesting the other girls?  Vivaldi (talk) 04:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  1) No one said he was charged, but three girls including his niece testified they were molested by him (plus the church worker and security guard). 2) The words "testimony," "testified," "court," "hearing," "prosecution," "prosecutors," "witnesses," etc. all give the impression it has to do with a trial. 3) Do you know why the girls who testified were never charged with perjury? Arbusto 07:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  1) Why wasn't Ballenger charged with molesting the 3 other girls?  2) A hearing is different from a trial.  There is no jury to weigh the evidence and make a conclusion at a hearing.  3) Do you know why the girls who testified were never charged with perjury?  Primarily because the prosecutation believed them.  A perjury charge would require that the prosecution show that the events that were described did not take place and that the girls willingly lied about that fact.  Proving that something did not happen in the distant past is almost an impossiblility. Vivaldi (talk) 03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Vivaldi, the citation provided by Arbustoo is from a reliable source.  You'll need a really good reason not to include that stuff. Just zis Guy you know? 08:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: JzG- I want to include the information about Ballenger trial, but it must be done properly.  Ballenger was convicted of molesting 1 girl, not 3 or 4.  The other girls that testified that they were molested did so during a hearing and not a trial as Arbustoo wrote.  Also, it is important to note Hyles opinion of the case against Ballenger -- mainly that he always believed he was wrongly convicted.  Arbustoo's original edits here made it look like Hyles not only knew that Ballenger was molesting children, but that he supported the molestations as a matter of doctrine.   We must surely include the information about the Ballenger trial, but you cannot distort the truth by making it seem worse than it really is.  Ballenger was convicted of molesting 1 girl, not 4.  The other girls that testified did so during a sentencing hearing, not at a trial before Ballenger's peers.  And Hyles' viewpoint about the case is highly relevant and should be included, since the entire point of Arbustoo's edits is to make it seem like Hyles spoke indifferently about molestation, when nothing is further from the truth.  Arbustoo is sacrificing the truth in his nearly single-handed mission to defame Hyles. Vivaldi (talk) 03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Just my 2č ... I agree with JzG and Arbusto here.  The article that Arbusto quotes is without question the description of a trial.  It mentions witnesses, testimony, prosecutors, etc.  Moreover, the content of these witnesses testimony is pretty much consistent with Arbusto's claims.--Deville (Talk) 17:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article that Arbusto quotes is without question the description of a trial.  You are 100% completely wrong.  It wasn't a trial.  It was a sentencing hearing.  That is completely different from a trial.  The same standards of evidence do not apply to a sentencing hearing as a trial, and there is no jury to evaluate the truthfulness of the claims the witnesses make during a hearing.  The girls claims were only used by the judge to decide on the sentence that Ballenger should get.  He did not rule on the truthfullness of the girl's statements.  And indeed, if the judge truly believed that Ballenger was a serial molester that had molested 4 or more girls, it seems unconscionable that he would have sentenced Ballenger to only 4 years, don't you think?  Also, if the other 3 girls molestation claims had merit, why wasn't Ballenger charged with molestating them?  Wouldn't an additional 3 convictions put him away for even longer?  Vivaldi (talk) 03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not trying to remove the fact that Ballenger was a convicted pedophile.  That information properly belongs in this article.  In all likelihood Ballenger probably did molest those girls, but my feelings (and Arbustoo's feelings) do not belong in an encyclopedia article.  And no matter what, untruths that are not verifiable do not belong in the article.  The 3 girls absolutely 100% for certain did not testify during a trial as Arbustoo claimed.  They testified during a hearing, which is "without question" not a trial. Vivaldi (talk) 03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two other girls allegedly molested at First Baptist Church of Hammond  

message: This is not good, guys.  I have had to block two editors for violating WP:3RR.  The way to resolve content disputes is not through edit war.  Please go to WP:DR and come to some sort of understanding. Just zis Guy you know? 08:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no need to remove massive amounts of criticism in the press especially an article about police "worrying" over a convicted child molestor passing candy to kids at Hammond. Nor is there any explanation left for its removal. Arbusto 23:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A RfC has been opened at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Vivaldi. Arbusto 02:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Arbustoo is not longer editing Wikipedia actively and the RfC on Vivaldi is still awaiting 2 people that can certify that they have tried and failed to resolve the dispute. Vivaldi (talk) 16:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected, two editors blocked 

message: Regarding "Divine Inimacy":  Changes made to reflect the Wiki article on Jack Schaap after discussion.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.247.225 (talk) 18:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teachings 

message: An anonymous editor seems ot think we should link to every single one of the church's ministries' websites.  We already cleaned that lot out months back. We already link to the church website, that's a reliable source for the article, the other links are not sources for the article and are linked from the church's website, therefore per WP:EL we do not want them. Just zis Guy you know? 15:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't hurt anything if organised properly.  The ministry section has been chopped down to a single paragraph too.  Maybe the other external links should be listed at the end and indented with a :*.  --Kalmia 20:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple links 

message: First Baptist Church of Hammond has been named one of the 50 most influential churches in America, according to The Church Report magazine.
A survey was sent to more than 2,000 of the largest non-Catholic congregations in the nation by Church Growth Today. A small selected group of smaller churches was invited to recommend churches. Participants were asked to recommend up to 10 churches they considered to be among the nation's most influential. A total of 83 churches were recommended.
First Baptist was ranked 24 among the other churches on the list. The churches were recommended by other church leaders.
''
Jack Schaap is the pastor at First Baptist Church, 473 Sibley St.
Somebody can add this.  Maybe I will.  This was in todays paper.  
--Kalmia 20:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Baptist Church of Hammond has been named one of the 50 most influential churches in America 

message: Why can't this man sit in the area where all the parents sit with there kids. I do understand that the man would be a interupption but everyone has a right to come and hear the words of God. Who are you to say he can't come to church. You are not the man uupstairs. The man has rights you know.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.1.215.58 (talk) 19:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rights 

message: The page is protected now, but someone with authority should edit and add the following source:    It's a good article about the topic in question, and the lack of it being in the article led to the article being nominated for deletion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Source 

message: Gwen, while you're dealing with this, perhaps you could look over the Criticism section?  In my judgement, the only part that may meet Wikipedia standards of sourcing and relevance is the "AV Ballenger" section -- he was apparently a church deacon who was actually convicted of something that took place on church property.  It also seems reasonable to state that Jack Hyles has repeatedly been accused of misconduct, and refer to the article on him for details.  The remaining material looks to me like mudslinging that is either poorly sourced or has marginal relevance to the church. Looie496 (talk) 16:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've been thinking rather much the same things. Moreover, although these evangelical churches do tend to get muddled with their charismatic leaders, the late Jack Hyles and First Baptist Church (Hammond, Indiana) are not the same topics. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: I have unlocked the article. However, please be aware that, given the long and sad history of this article, edit warring of any kind, even below the threshold of 3rr, will not be allowed until this article has truly settled down. If Wikipedia sourcing and other policies are followed, this is very likely to happen, but not foregone. Please feel free to add much helpful, sourced content about the church and its churchly activities, along with any descriptions and history of its campus, as discussed above. I would strongly suggest staying away from the criticism section altogether for the moment, at least until I've had time to look into it more and perhaps clean it up a bit. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely you have evidence to support your claim, or to refute the information you tried to remove. Please present it here.   — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 03:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unlocked 

message: I think it might be worth mentioning Jack Hyles' daughter, Linda Hyles Murphrey, speaking about the church, talking about its history, finances and describing it as a cult. SalHamton (talk) 19:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jack Hyles' daughter, Linda Murphrey, speaks 

message: The Arbitration Committee are proposing to remove sanctions related to this topic area which appear to be no longer required.  Details of the proposal are at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Motion: Removal of Unused Sanctions where your comments are invited. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz Read! Talk! 20:55, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitration Motion 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on First Baptist Church (Hammond, Indiana). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090117131521/http://outreachmagazine.com:80/docs/top100_2007_largest.pdf to http://www.outreachmagazine.com/docs/top100_2007_largest.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 06:55, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Per this page it would seem to me that this article is not under probation anymore.  Nor are several other articles that are listed in the :Category:Articles on probation.  I will be removing the arbcom probation template from all of the pages listed at the first link cited in this message. Zell Faze (talk) 05:24, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Arbitration Probation Template