Talk:Croats/Archive 1

message: A major part in the History section is missing, about the genocidal "Independent state of Croatia", a puppet nazi state in which the most monstrous crimes against humanity were commited. Hunders of thousands of Serbs, Jews and Romas where slaughtered in concentration camps. There is NO! word about it in the history section !!
Did you actually read the history section? NDH is mentioned here:
"In the Second World War, the Axis forces created a puppet state - the Independent State of Croatia which inluded a lot of territories where Croats lived in the former Yugoslav Kingdom; but many littoral Croats remained outside that country. During and after the war, between 40,000 and 200,000 Croats lost their lives in genocides such as the Bleiburg massacre committed by the Yugoslav Partisans, as well as in many actions committed by chetniks. Many ended their lives in concentration camps such as Jasenovac." Mihovil 13:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What about Croatian nazi state during WWII ?

message: I have made some changes to the numbers as i though the estimates were way down
eg in New Zealand most Croats call themselves Dalmatian and the number of them is extremly high. Probably the 4th highest migrant group. So the number in NZ estimated seems wrong.
In Australia Croats are 12th highest (in 1988 they were 6th highest)..testimony to this would be the Australian soccer team which can have up 8 players at one time all of Croat background (Australia v Uruguay 2006)
Argentia have 400,000 which i have dropped in. Even Maradona has some Croat blood hahhaah.
:In Australia and New Zeland there is a great (maybe the biggest) Dalmatian community. People whom call themselves "Dalmati" are the Italian people living in Dalmatia. Most of them left Croatia afther the WWII and move to Italy, Australia, New Zeland. Also if they may have a croatian citizenship they have to be not counted as Croats.
:On a more general note, I really think we need some verifiable sources about the numbers of Croats in different countries. For example, I think that the figure of 40 thousand Croats in the UK is greatly exaggerated. EurowikiJ 17:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Croats outside Croatia 

message: As for the genetic makeup of Croats, this field of investigation is only at the beginning (more extensive research in the future etc.). Be as it may, here are relevant linx, one in English and other in Croatian:
http://grokhovs1.chat.ru/legacy.html
http://pub145.ezboard.com/fimotacaffefrm24.showMessage?topicID=68.topic
Mir Harven 23:06, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah well, what I heard on TV wasn't too far off -- the table in the first document shows that it is indeed the Poles and Ukrainians (along with Macedonians which weren't mentioned) that have the E7 haplotype most often among the Slavs, other than the Croats. But yeah, it's probably not a particularly useful data point as the Saami and the Germans also seem to have it even more. --Shallot 00:09, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a more extensive section on the genetic makeup - with current data, which is pretty solid by now. I've provided references both on this page and on the subsequent haplogroup pages. So I think everything should be in order. After my addition 72.144.139.21 reverted the whole thing, but without making a comment - so I don't know if there was some form of objection against the addition or if it is simply vandalism. --Denoir 02:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Genetics

message: : Autochthonous Croat minorities exist in [...] Russia.
Someone added this, but I don't see how it's true. Removing until verified. They may exist as a minority but are they really autochthonous? --Joy [shallot] 09:19, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Croats in Russia

message: Can someone add a side-bar population statistics thing like in the Serbs and Slovenes articles?
:I noticed some changes to the population stats; is there a source being used for these numbers or did 2 million Croats just drop off the face of the earth today? Peyna 19:40:34, 2005-08-15 (UTC)
:: Many of those numbers there have no source whatsoever and should probably be removed. An anonymous user has been calculating some exact numbers from CIA WFB population data estimates which is also utterly pointless. --Joy [shallot] 21:08, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Side-Bar Population Statistics

message: It would be, I think, good to explain why this genetic stuff at least. It's an ideological counterbalance to the pan-Slavic ideology which has been coined by romantic pan-Slavic nationalists (including many Croats-actually, a Croat, Juraj Križanić, was the founder of the pan-Slavic ideology). This ideology is, let's be frank-"racialist" (not racist). It lumps all Slavic langauges speaking peoples in a froup called "Slavs". OK, so far, so good. But, the language-phenotype-genotype mental association established by this ideology has caused annoyance to many Slavic peoples & individuals. An example ? Do Poles speak a Slavic language ? Yes. Hence, Poles are Slavs. Do African-Americans speak English language ? Yes. Is English a Germanic langauge ? Yes. So, African-Americans are "Germans" or "Teutons". This "racialist" implication, encoded in the langauge-genotype association, is, I guess, the source of certain aversion of not few "Slavic" peoples towards "Slavic ideology". It can be further elaborated on, but, I'm tired...Mir Harven 23:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Folksy genetics

message: If we're talking about the Alans, then they came from the Caucasus and the Ossetians are their descendents and not the Persians who live further to the south. Tombseye 16:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Map of possible Ancient Iranic Croats is off

message: To those who might be interested: please take a look at the Croatian Wikipedia counterpart of this article. It is abysmal... If you're willing and able (I might be able, but unfortunately I'm really not willing), try and spread some of the good stuff from here to there. GregorB 08:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[hr:Hrvati]] 

message: Why not putting the picture of Josip Broz Tito, he was the most notorious Croat in the world, everyone knew who he was (founder of the non-alingment)--TheFEARgod 13:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hitler was most famous German. That doesn't mena we should make him represent his nation. --Ante Perkovic 13:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  picture 

message: if you speak croatian: http://www.croatia.ch/tjedan/041204_1.php --User:84.176.238.6 00:58, 9 July 2006
::What a sad piece of misinformed nationalist propaganda.. The Y-Chromosomal haplogroups give an idea of genetic origins on the paternal line. Being Slavic or not has to do with language, not genetics. Furthermore the article shows a complete lack of understanding of the genetics behind it (not surprising as the author works in education sociology) . The haplogroups show lineages and these pre-date all ethnic or linguistic groupings we use today. 
::And finally if the article wants to claim that the Croats are not Slavic because of less than 40% of the R1a1 haplogroup, then it should at least be honest and say that the same goes for all the other nations in former Yugoslavia. These were originally tribes, speaking Slavic languages, that migrated from the northeast to the Balkans. There they mixed with the existing population to such degree that the descendants (on the male line) of the original tribes are now in minority. That is not unique to Croatia or former-Yugoslavia. It is rare in any European population to have > 40% of the people belonging to one haplogroup.
::It's really sad how science gets twisted and abused for such primitive political uses. --Denoir 08:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  croats are no slavs 

message: i have put the following etymology up twice on this site, only to have it removed by someone who apparently wants to censor information.
the etymology is: The word Croat comes from Serbian-Croatian Hrvat, from Old Church Slavonic Chǔrvatinǔ "Croat", literally "mountaineer, highlander", from churva "mountain".
the flimsy links with Iranians are mostly due to outdated scholarship riddled with holes.  i'd go into more detail, but needless to say, the croats are slavs who are very closely related to the serbs.
genetics are not the basis of an ethnic group.  read a sociology or anthropology book....
:By all means, we would like much more detail. --Mihovil 05:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that, I had to roll the versions back due to some disagreement about other content in the article (in the process of mediating a dispute).  My intention was not to take out your additions and I had meant to put them back and leave a note on your user page explaining what happened, but I hadn't taken care of it yet.  I should have done that sooner so that there would be no confusion.  I also do not endorse the current version of this article or what it says about genetics or otherwise and I do realize it has faults on a number of levels.  Eberhart 18:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  croat etymology 

message: i'm not sure what mihovil wanted me to expand on, so i'll assume he wanted me to expand on everything.
this message is centered around the silly iranian theory.
to begin with, the fact that the Serbo-Croatian language (there is no dispute by linguists that Serbian and Croatian are in fact the same language) is completely and utterly Slavic and that archaeology has unearthed artefacts (pottery, iron swords, metal decorations, glagolitic writing, etc.) that are undeniably slavic in their design, should lead no one to question the Slavic origin of the Croats. and yet...
the word Harauvatis was found in an inscription of King Darius I and was assumed by a small minority of overzealous pseudo-scholars to perhaps be connected to Croatian Hrvat.  The transcription, however, was missing a middle h, HaraHuvatis, which is in fact the name of a holy river in the Avesta (Zoroastrian holy book), and appears in Sanskrit as Sarasvati.  This word could not possibly refer to early Croats.
similarly, some have tried to explain the remnants of Slavic (pagan) religion found in Croatia that seems to express a certain dualism by attaching it to Zoroastrianism.  of course, the two dualisms are nothing alike....
the legend about the five brothers who led the clans to their new homeland, and the colors selected to represent the cardinal directions (White Croatia, Red Croatia, etc.) is similar to the Scythian/Sarmatian customs of planting colored flags to deliniate the center and the four cardinal points when establishing a camp site or on the battlefield.  of course, the same tradition is found among the Serbs and Bulgarians, and is very similar to Hungarian beliefs.  this would indicate that the legend became popular and spread to the slavs BEFORE they invaded the Balkans.  it does not indicate an Iranian origin at all.
in fact, there is not tangible evidence, cultural, linguistic, or otherwise which points to an Iranian origin.  nothing about traditional or modern Croatian culture seems Iranian.  absolutely nothing about the Croatian language is Iranian, unless you can suddenly understand Farsi, or Kurdish, or Pashto, etc.
what can you conclude except that the Croats are not Iranian.
Flibjib8 23:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  not iranian 

message: Partly thanks to the edit war by now-banned User:Afrika paprika, I rewrote the article, stubbing the "Culture and traditions" section (moderate expansion welcome)—shouldn't this be mostly what the article is about?. "Genetic origins" is moved to Theories on the origin of Croats, which is now more or less a copy/paste of the "Origins" section here. I find the "genetics" too dense for an overview article like this one. Denoir et al, I hope you'll give the due weight to the appropriate theories (and "theories") in that article. Katičić's article at hercegbosna.org (thanks Mir (?)) offers a good overview on the subject. 
As for the "number inflation", well, what the heck, I retained (and sourced) the 6-9 milion figure. While I myself consider the 9 milion a gross exaggeration (applicable only if one "counts blood cells" of many English-speaking Americans, Spanish-speaking Argentinians etc.), I hope the readers can conclude that the lower figures in such infoboxes are usually the more reliable ones.  Duja 11:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've been away now for a week on vacation - and the rewrite was a pleasant surprise. Great work, and I fully agree with moving the genetics section in an "origins" article rather than having such a technical section in the main one. Again, great work. --Denoir 19:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite