Talk:Kilmichael ambush

message: This report by the Times originated in a document titled  The Irish Republican Army (From Captured Documents Only) composed by Basil Clarke, Head of Publicity, and his colleagues Captain H.B.C. Pollard of the Police Authority and Major Cecil Street of the Irish Office. This has been comprehensively challenged most recently in Troubled History, by Brian P Murphy osb and Niall Meehan, Aubane Historical Society (2008), this in addition to The Origins & Organisation of British Propaganda in Ireland 1920, also by Brian P. Murphy. This is also addressed by Media Ryan in her comprehensive autobiography of Tom Barry. If it is to be used, which I think it should, all the background information should be included. --Domer48'fenian' 18:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Times report 

message: A lot of this article seems to me to be irrelevant to its immediate subject. The background section has a longish description of who the auxiliaries were. This should be cut right down and any extra info putin the Auxiliary Division article.
Secondly, the controversey section is far far too long and detailed. The Hart/Ryan controversey is just not important enough to warrant more than a single paragraph. Thoughts anyone?
Jdorney (talk) 09:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So, thoughts anyone? Jdorney (talk) 13:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Put forward your proposed wording? --Domer48'fenian' 21:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

text: If your going to propose changes propose them, if not then don't? Please don't use personal attacks in your comments it helps no one.--Domer48'fenian' 07:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Domer, please don't accuse others of "personal attacks" where none have been made. Jdorney, remember to indent your comments and that you can use dispute resolution to bring in others if you wish. Rd232 talk 09:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed cuts 

message: wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
; Viewpoint by Jdorney (talk): ....
Ok, the issue is User:Domer48 reverting to changes originally made by User:Superfopp here. last instance of Domer's reverts here. There were other issues before, but as of the last edit we are now down to two. 
*First, my version, "Only a week before the Kilmichael ambush, the Auxiliaries had fired on a football match in Croke Park, killing fourteen civilians (thirteen spectators and one player)".  Domer's version, "A week before the Kilmichael ambush, the Auxiliaries shot and killed 14 people, which included a player, during a football match in Croke Park". 
I favour first version because, it tells how they were killed. "fired on a crowd". Second, "during a footbal match" is unclear in two ways. It implies the Auxiliaries were playing, it implies the match finished (the word during meaning 'in the course of').  
*Second; My version, Cadet Cecil Guthrie (ex Royal Air Force), escaped, badly wounded from the ambush site but asked for help at a house where two IRA men were staying. They killed him with his own gun. Domer's version, "Cadet Cecil Guthrie (ex Royal Air Force), was badly wounded but escaped to a nearby house where he asked for help. However, two IRA volunteers were staying there and killed him with his own gun". 
I favour first version, Firsly, because it's more accurate. Guthrie wasn't headed to the house. He stumbled across it. He was escaping from the ambush. Secondly I think putting the IRA men in the fisr sentence and leaving out "however" reads better.
Jdorney (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'll be changing it back then. Jdorney (talk) 23:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinion 

message: It would appear according to this that the additions made by Belyii do not accurately reflect the content of the chapter in question. Obviously it should be included in the article somehow, however without claims such as Hart being vindicated and suchlike. I doubt you'd find many people in Ireland who thought it sad he died at an early age either.... Quotes requested from the source to support each and every sentence added before it gets added back please. 2 lines of K303 20:27, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you provide quotes I'll be happy to work on something with you, just the previous addition was clearly no good without me even reading the source. 2 lines of K303 19:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, done. Have at it, but lets all try to remain civil. Jdorney (talk) 20:43, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Terror in Ireland

message: To all those interested in the wiki article on the Kilmichael Ambush, I now introduce myself. 
I am a complete new-bee to contributing to wikipedia, starting with my first rather unsuccessful attempt last Sunday night. The timing of my effort on the Kilmichael article, arose from a break in my long term personal workload and being able take the opportunity of using some spare time, to research my family genealogy, while recovering from the flu last week. Needing to reference some family facts, lead me to reopening my late grandfathers book over the weekend. I then spotted the wiki article and deciding to attempt a contribution, though not regarding the more contentious subject of the condition of the bodies. On Monday I had a chance to read the Sunday papers, only to discover that a Hart/Fitzpatrick v Ryan controversy was being covered by the Irish papers.
 
From a point of objectivity, I consider myself a fairly neutral Irishman. My mother is from the town of Dunmanway. My grandfather George Ross was originally from Glendart, near Bantry and after emigrating to Chicago as a young man, returned to Ireland after several years and married into Main street Dunmanway. He and my grandmother lived out the remainder of their lives in the town, including during the War of Independence and the Irish Civil War. He was an old IRA intelligence officer at the time, she an active member of Cumman na mBan. He stood as a Fianna Fail candidate during the election for the second Dail Eireann. His younger brother was Gibbs Ross from Glendart, Bantry. Gibbs was Adjutant 3rd Cork Brigade during the War of Independence and was O/C 3rd and/or 5th Cork Brigades during the Civil War. His niece, my mother is still alive, and I have no intention of discussing the situation around Dunmanway during these periods.
 
Matters I will engage in are Kilmichael, Macroom and Béal na mBláth. My other grandfather AJS Brady, lived in Rectory across the road from Macroom Castle during these troubled times. He lived out his life in the town and passed away in 1986, but not before writing his memoirs 'The Briar of Life' These remained unpublished until my father published, in December 2010. AJS's father was the Rev AJ Brady, Church of Ireland Rector of Macroom during these wars and until his death in 1933. As such he, he was local Chaplain to the crown forces based in the town.
 
The Rev AJ Brady saw the condition of the naked bodies, on their return to the Castle from Kilmichael, as did a named RC Curate, though the latter was compelled to do so, by the rather annoyed auxiliaries. His eldest son AJS Brady was on hand at the time, and wrote regarding the condition of these bodies and other matters of interest in his memoirs. The exhumation of Guthrie was performed in presence of the Rev AJ Brady, and as such it is incorrect for the Wiki article to speak of a handing over of the body to the Church of Ireland authorities in Macroom. Indeed the use of the word authorities is questionable, for the Church of Ireland was disestablished in 1871 and as such was no longer part of the State.
 
It is unlikely Hart had any access to the unpublished manuscript during his research period, or indeed ever. He may however, have managed to talk with someone that had previously read the manuscript in the 1970's. I have not read Hart's work.
 
Please take the opportunity of reading the relevant sections of 'The Briar of Life', before continuing to write relating to matters centred in and around Macroom during these periods. Borrow it from a library, if you feel I am intentionally self-promoting. Some unpublished information is known to my family, but out sensitivity to other families in the area, will remain undisclosed. Other information regarding my Brady family will not be disclosed, and will be left for historians to uncover.
 
Remember that any writer or speaker, previously involved in killing another man, will have a vested interest in how history perceives him, and will tend to distort the truth either sub-consciously or by design later. Fortunately, historians can often see through such inaccuracies, by taking into account the knowledge of other citizens, who lived through these events and may even have been witnesses to incidental events, in and around the killings in question.
 
It would have been nice, if those previously engaged on editing the Kilmichael Article, had welcomed my effort to contribute to this wikipedia article and helped me to do things right. But it seems some are unknowingly rather possessive of the article, and would prefer to just shut out new contributions, or those that are perceived to come from families with a former Anglo-Irish background. That some wikipedians, clearly proud of their nationalist leanings, (I have since looked into their wiki profiles and edit histories) should continue to cause a modern Irishman like me to perceive oppression, as recent as today, is somewhat sad for modern Ireland. For I like to think of myself as an impartial Irishman.
 
I would call on all those interested in achieving impartiality and accuracy in Irish history on wikipedia to take up the challenge, beginning with the Kilmichael article. Please take a look at my efforts at contributing, now all deleted by more the knowledgeable, but still available in the edit history. Friendly contact will be welcomed, but please do let me know something about who you really are. I guess there is a private channel in wikipedia, by which you can pass your true identity. But I really don't yet know enough about the inner workings of wikipedia. I had read somewhere that one should be bold. But it seems contributing, even in a minor way, is actually quite a minefield.
 
To those of you doing good work, you have my thanks. I have always had an interest in history, and have currently finally gotten around, to reading Smith's History of Cork, 2nd edn. printed 1774. Such are the pleasures of this Irishman and the bounty of an historian past.
 
Ashton Brady Ashton.brady (talk) 23:44, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No disrespect intended, but you were trying to put a lengthy paragraph into the centre of the article the import of which amounted to simply the fact that this memoir had been published. It was not relevant and was too long. Political bias, Anglo-Irish heritage etc has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. If you want to ammend the sentence on Guthrie go ahead. Jdorney (talk) 08:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  The info is far too much, and should be trimmed down to a bare sentence or two.  The book should only be the reference, not mentioned in the text.--Dmol (talk) 10:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Condition of the bodies and other matters, refered to in 'The Briar of Life', by AJS Brady (d.1986), Pub'd by Original Writings, 2010 

message: There is now a full paragraph in the Popular Culture, comparing the ambush to the recent film, "The Wind that shakes the Barley".  Personally, having read Tom Barry's book and seen the film, I agree there is a definite similarity.   But Wikipedia is not based on my, (or anyone else's) interpretation of a film.  This section has been uncited for almost 5 years. I had a quick look for cites, but it's hard to find anything official and not too one-sided. Anyone seen any good cites for this.
Secondly, is the paragraph too long.  It seems to be. Most Popular Culture sections only list a single sentence per item.--Dmol (talk) 11:29, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In the director's narration of the film Loach says that the ambush depicted is NOT the Kilmichael Ambush, but is intended to be representative of IRA ambushes of the time.  Some elements from the scene, he goes on to say, do come from Kilmichael and Barry's book.  In light of this perhaps the detailed comparison is not appropriate, and at most a mention is warranted.
--Jeffreykegler (talk) 03:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Wind that shakes the Barley" comparison. 

message: The "Controversy" section of this article seems messed up and just unencyclopedic in general. Not sure what we should do it fix it. Open to discussion. Cogaidh (talk) 17:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy section 

message: The most recent edit appears to be by someone using their own published work on the subject as a source on the controversy.  See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. PatGallacher (talk) 14:54, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Conflict of interest