Talk:Insight (magazine)/Archive 1

message: The link to the NY Times article are essential, so that readers can see the truth beyond this story. And the links are to keep wikipedia with verifiable documentation, otherwise, reference-less articles are no better than Insight's sourceless accusations. Dogru144 13:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance of retaining NY Times references

message: Copied from other article's talk page by HailFire 12:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I support your decision.  I tried thinking of a way to standardize this article's format/content, and couldn't.  I agree, this controversy can easily be covered within Insight Magazine's main article.  To be honest, this controversy is the only reason Insight itself is notable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Italiavivi 00:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Support. --HailFire 02:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Support. -Silence 02:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Strongly Against - This controversy is much more about Fox News picking it up (and refusing complete corrections and retractions) than about the original report in Insight magazine. I don't expect the article to stand alone, but an article about attempted Obama smears might be a more likely home. Flatterworld 15:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are, however, descriptions of this incident both on the massive Fox News Channel controversies page, and on the Insight (magazine) page. I'm just not sure that this controversy is worthy of its own article, when it is already noted in detail on the other relevant pages. It seems that it'd be a lot easier to get the information if it was part of a larger article.Athene cunicularia 21:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe the difference is that the "Plame affair" is much larger than the Insight Madrassa scandal. The Insight scandal doesn't involve perjury or grand jury trials, does it? My whole point is that this article is in 3 different places, and each is independently updated. The questions is, would you rather the information be removed from the Insight page, or would you rather the scandal page be merged with the Insight page?Athene cunicularia 14:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Plame scandal didn't start out as much of a 'scandal' either - the grand jury trial didn't start day one, now did it? (And if it hadn't been for Patrick Fitzgerald, it never would have.) If you prefer, we can use the Killian documents as an example of how to link a 'scandal' with a source (in that case, Dan Rather). You're ignoring my suggestion of merging this article into a general 'Obama smears' sort of article, which could include the incessant repetition of his middle name, claims he never sponsored any legislation, and so forth. imo we should have such articles for every candidate, so we don't clog up their main Presidential campaign pages. Meanwhile, why are you so determined to remove any linkage of it from Fox News, when that's the main issue? No one's read that Moonie online Insight magazine since it went out of print in 2004 - at least no one did until so many Fox News people insisted on quoting that one article so much. Do you really expect anyone to believe that all those Fox 'news' people were 'confused' that they were supposed to actually check out stories they presented as 'news'? If only one of them had made the 'mistake', I'd buy ignorance and/or incompetence as an excuse - but all of them? At the same time? I don't think so. And nothing but a mild memo as a rebuke? With no direction to immediately take down the story from their websites? Or at least post a full retraction on their websites? No suspensions? Murdoch isn't that terminally stupid (or forgiving), and neither is Roger Ailes. Flatterworld 18:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An "Obama smears" article as you suggest is commonly called a "POV fork" amongst editors here. Italiavivi 23:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Couldn't have said it better myself.  Wholeheartedly agree. Italiavivi 22:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry - I always forget that Americans don't do irony. ;-) As to the point of "a page for "Obama smears" is an unacceptable and unambiguous violation of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view" - not true. The neutral point of view refers to how material is presented, not a requirement to censor such material altogether. Please reread the relevant sections in the Killian documents and Dan Rather articles I pointed out earlier. I would now add The 1/2 Hour News Hour. Flatterworld 02:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Another similar example: John Kerry military service controversy.Flatterworld 23:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merger of [[Insight magazine "madrassa" media controversy]] into this article

message: Because the "media controversy" article had basically become an identical representation of the same section on the Insight page, I have gone ahead with the merge/redirect. The information regarding the controversy can be more easily found on this page anyway. Athene cunicularia 17:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Update on merge

message: I made more suggestions recently but what I wrote doesn't appear anywhere so I will try again:
1) Print controversies should be placed beneath web controversies since they have nothing to do with the current Insight (invert order)
2)Spat over how much Insight pays or doesn't pay per article is completely irrelevant and should be omitted. Mr. Kirkpatrick got his facts wrong.
3) The section on Obama needs to be updated:
*article in washington post on Obama rumors
*dissension among Washington Post editors chronicled in Politico. com
*Ombudswoman for Post makes a statement to correct blunders
*Insight issues statement setting record straight (current Washington Watch: Our Focus was Hillary, Not Obama)) and asking for a correction from Washington Post, CNN and New York Times
*Mr. Kuhner published article on subject in New York Sun, Wednesday Dec. 13 with all of these latest facts on the Obama controversy: "The Fifth Estate"
Since we are barred from making edits, we need help to ensure there is an update.
Best wishes,
Publishtruth (talk) 23:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Help Requested: Insight Needs to be Updated

message: Steve, if you think you are "helping the cause", you are not. The church does not shy away from controversy but welcomes the attention that media exposure provides. And Wikipedia - rhymes with media - provides exposure.
Insight (along with World&I and Washington Times) was founded by Unification Church members. I believe it is part of a  media corporation owned by the Unification Church; see News World Communications. It serves no one here and no on in the church to conceal this relationship.
Now, don't take this too hard. I know that church members sometimes disagree with each other, just as Wikipedians do. But I've been a Wikipedian for 6 years, and I have a reputation for fair play that a little thing like probation has not quite erased from the memories of old-timers, anyway. 
If they want to write an article on the current editor of Insight why not let them? --Uncle Ed (talk) 23:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW Ed, I did start the article on Tom McDevitt. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 22:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Still, by the strict rules of WP editing, Mr. Kuhner is not notable.  I would be surprised if 100 people around the country would recognize his name. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Household name" and "notable" are not necessarily synonyms.Athene cunicularia (talk) 22:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the New York Times had not interviewed him there would be no sources at all for his bio. I didn't notice that any of the other news stories about the Insight/Obama affair bothered to mention his name. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to try to improve the article.Athene cunicularia (talk) 22:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I withdrew the nomination for deletion on Kuhner's article.  Maybe the information from the Croation article linked there could be added to this article. Steve Dufour (talk) 21:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Do not hide anything

message: Deleted from intro:
:Insight was founded in the 1980s as a conservative print magazine called Insight on the News. It was noted for its reports about alleged scandals in the Bill Clinton administration and for its support of George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq.
I deleted the struck out portion of the sentence above, because I couldn't find support for it in the NY Times article referenced. Possibly they DID support tho invasion. If so, a quote from the NY Times (or better yet, Insight itself) would demonstrate this. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Iraq invasion

message: I don't see how David Brock leaving is a "controversy". Where are the two sides?
The story about the "non-military" burial also shows only one side, i.e., the government moved the remains out after a report by Insight. Again, where are the two sides? Is there anyone who says Clinton was right in what he did? Or who says Insight coverage was inaccurate?
I would say only the "pin dirt on Hillary" thing (i.e., Obama raised Muslim) is an authentic controversy. The two sides are the Democrats, who all deny the story; and Insight, which still stands by its story in some way. 
I intend to move the first two paragraphs out of this section, and also to rename "controversies" to something like "Obama controversy". (could use a little help on the wording here :-) --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I put the Paula Jones thing back. The problem is that the only time Insight gets mentioned by the mainstream is when it gets something wrong or stirs up a "controversy".  I would not object if you went ahead and took out the word "controversy" and replaced it with "notable events" or "notable stories" etc. Redddogg (talk) 17:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, leaving 'Barrack Obama' as a heading can't be right. I've tried "Unsourced report of alleged Hillary Clinton plan to attack Obama". I thought of adding '(on since disproven grounds)' but it's long and complicated enough! It's about Insight first and foremost as the story remains notoriously unsourced (and it's the Insight page) - and then it's about Clinton - the alleged attack plan for Obama - and then it's about the fact that the basis for the alleged attack has been disproven. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Good points. You might take out "alleged" since "unsourced" kind of gives the reader the same info. Redddogg (talk) 01:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Excuse me...you want to use Wikipedia to parrot the unfounded, unsourced and discredited Insight story for the purpose of leaving Wikipedia's readers to "decide" whether Insight "had a source"? Kuhner may not need to WP:PROVEIT, but Wikipedia does. This encyclopedia DOES exist for them (our readers) and not for us...and oh-by-the-way, WP:BLP applies to this article too. riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 05:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At the moment the heading reads Insight identified as source of "anonymous smears" - but it's totally unspecific, and being so, kind of makes it look they it's an unusual event for Insight (and whether it is or it isn't, that's a POV impression). I'll try appending  "surrounding Obama" to it. It's the type of heading that requires some kind of focus. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Matt, the point is that it is absolutely not "unusual" for Insight, see my post below for proof via WP:GOOGLEriverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 16:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It looks very long now. Surely the older headings were better? Such as Unsourced allegations against 2008 Presidential candidates, or one of the varients such as Allegations against Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton's campaign?--Matt Lewis (talk) 16:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, see below...riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 16:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversies section

message: :::But was the MediaWeek piece a "smear" of Rev. Moon? If I got a little testy above it was perhaps for the same reason the MediaWeek guy was. In responding to well warranted allegations that Kuhner perpetrated yet another politically biased, factually incorrect and irresponsibly published "double splatter smear", Kuhner's response to NYT is to cry "foul", "It is a form of religious bigotry that tries to smear our credibility by implying that we are owned by religious zealots." Credibility? What credibility??? You gotta have some credibility before claiming "smear". And why did Kuhner use the word "implying" to refer to a statement of fact? And Kuhner's whining about "religious bigotry" in the context of his own religious bigotry as he smeared Obama...well, whoever said "hypocracy is the only unforgiveable sin" could have been describing behavior like this. Now...wrt "zealots", from a journalist's perspective, certainly the UC's flushing $300million per year into subsidizing politically and ideologically driven media (including garbage like Insight) is pretty "zealous", so if NYT characterized Unificationists as "zealots" (as Kuhner claims), and if NYT they implied by association that Kuhner is the journalistic equivalent of a religious zealot then this is (especially in the context of this story and Insight's long history) totally fair criticism. As I've commented before in private space, I allow room for the interpretation that Rev. Moon is benevolent at heart...but if that's true then where is HIS (or NWC's, or the UC's) criticism of Kuhner, and why does this clown still have a job? The questions of critics...is this the UC's idea of "heavenly deception" as "advocacy journalism" are fair. Couldn't Kuhner get with the Board of News World, show them his sources and say "I've shown my sources to x, x has made a statement, I still have my job and that's all I need to say". Where is Preston Moon? The Unification Church's silence is deafening, even Fox News came out against Kuhner's story!! My issue, and the real question that is "obfuscated" by the Unification Church is; Where does the "buck" stop at News World? There is not a single instance I can find of anyone on the board of News World Communications ever returning a a phone call on this topic, please correct me if I'm wrong, but for a story this big, when Fox News Sr. Execs will comment publically, NWS silence is just too wierd, and if it fuels well founded speculation...well, that's the Church's big problem...would you agree?
:::As for Kuhner's weasle-whiney excuse..."we weren't guilty of implying that X was a madrassa trained muslim and closet islamofacist, we were just reporting that the EVIL Y was plotting to say that about X.", wow...I struggle for a wiki-appropriate word for Kuhner's "explanation", even in the context of WP:SPADE. 
:::Last point. Another media "owner" abuse of power for comparison. Once upon a time, Walter Annenberg was so frustrated with Gov. Milton Shapp for opposing a profitable (to Annenberg) railroad merger, that Annenberg had one of his employees plant a question in a press conference..."Have you ever been in a mental institution?". The stunned but unflappable target Milton Shapp replied simply "no" to Annenberg's filthy lying implication by proxy of one of Annenberg's  employees. Next day, Annenberg's paper ran the front page headline and five column story "Shapp Denies Ever having been in a Mental Home", destroying Shapp's political career. Milton Shapp was, by almost any standard, an american hero, and whatever minor human flaws he may have had don't erase that. Later in life, Annenberg became disgusted with his behavior, or perhaps began thinking about his legacy. He founded the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and Annenberg's legacy now also includes the Annenberg Foundation and (one of my favorites) "Annenberg Political Fact Check". Annenberg's legacy now speaks volumes, in stark contrast to the filth he once practiced. Insight's tactics are the modern internet-equivalent of Annenberg's, but Insight has been doing it for 25 years, according to very reliable sources. What will Moon do on behalf of his (and his Church's) legacy?
:::Anyway, I am working from this perspective on expanding the article. Looking for comments from others on how to portray criticism of Insight. Specifically, I am concerned about WP:UNDUE weight to the criticism, but from what I can see, reliably sourced criticism is all over the place and I am seeing very little in the way of praise for Insight or Kuhner. riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 18:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ed, case in point...(deleting my only-partially-sensible-but-mostly-unnessecary comment) riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 21:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: MediaWeek article a "smear" of Moon?

message: I deleted the Scoops section and moved the content to the Events section.  First, I'm not sure why we're defining the journalism term "scoop" in an Insight article. Not only is it a commonly used term that everyone should know, but the section defining the term was full of bad grammar and unnecessary quotation marks. Plus, there is only one item listed. Has Insight only had one notable scoop? Probably not. I don't see any reason why it can't be included in the events section, or why the events section can't be renamed to include all items currently listed below it.Athene cunicularia (talk) 20:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Athene, us editors may know what "scoop" journalism is, but the people we write for probably do not. If you saw something you thought was "bad grammar", then by all means, feel free to wordsmith it, but the section I wrote passes my grammar checker, so do please elucidate what you thought was bad. And do it specifically please, rather than making vaguely worded statements to characterize my edits. riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 11:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Scoop" is not an obscure journalistic term. I am sure that everyone is familiar with the cliche "What's the scoop," and I feel no need to define it here. The main grammar problems I saw were "It's" vs. "Its," various missing punctuations, and overuse of quotes. I didn't know who made the edits, but I do see current problems with the article come from hastily made or edited changes. I think that everyone should take a step back and focus on quality for a while, not necessarily the controversies. Constant re-wording and squabbling isn't going to help the article by any stretch.Athene cunicularia (talk) 21:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, thanks for the cool head, thanks for your fixes, and hopefully I've made an acceptable offer to Matt. WNDL42 (talk) 22:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable "scoops"