Talk:The Pentecostal Mission

message: Could someone that knows Spanish,        translate this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.51.39 (talk) 03:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Hi, as I was reading the article I noticed a lot of statements that are not right or either not supported by any link or citiations. Please note that in the History section there are aslo a lot of mistakes. Whoever the user is, if you have something aganist the church or aganist TPM then please not this that this not a place for you to show anger or frustration aganist this church. This just an article page where the informations are found. This is just an encylopedia where you get informations not a debatable place. So if you have any comments or points to make note of please do so in the disscussion page and nto in the main article page. As I already mentioned, there are users who are also faking my name and creating a confusion in this talk page. Some of the comments I viewed and I was schoked to see the way they have done it. I hace also informed Onrem about this. Please other users if you don't have an ID then please do not fake others ID and name. It is not good for you. This is my humble request to all the readers and other who are editing and working on this article. Thanks you. rencin24 06:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  False informations 

message: I have moved the comments from the main page to the discussion page. Whoever it is that's wanting to post something that is a comment please do so in this talk page. The main page is for information alone, not for your discrimination and condemnations rencin24 07:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from the main page 

message: yes  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.105.64 (talk) 06:53, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can the photo be removed? 

message: When you did the doctrines section, there are many things left out.  Whoever did this section needs to go back and do there research.  Being out of the church now and looking at how much they try to control your life, this is not what Jesus did.  It is easy to preach what you want from the bible.  Going to another church does not mean you are a sinner or back sliding.  I have become closer to God since I left and have learned how to be a better Christian.  People need to stop looking to man for guidance and look to God.  In the end days many shall be misled.  For this reason you should never fully trust man, but wait on God. Also, the doctrine about celibacy my be a rule but it is not practiced.  I have seen many ministers trying to lure the opposite sex to start a relation.  I myself have been abused at a young age by a minister.  Non of this will ever be heard from the ministry because this will make them look bad.  How can things go on without accountability to anyone?  It is all pushed under a rug and the believers will never know.  This is wrong and God will judge.
:If there are changes that need to made, and they are verifiable, feel free to fix the article yourself. Please be sure to maintain a neutral point of view. --Onorem♠Dil 16:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A lot of things left out. 

message: Every Year held International (march month) convention at IBR, Near Tambaram, chennai, Tamilnadu, India. Very big Worship hall, All peoples gathered.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.12.6.130 (talk) 11:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  About International Convention 

message: While reading this article I noted a blatant disregard for objectivity and neutrality. Furthermore the history section is direct plagiarism of the article source document number [1], and every instance of the notation “citation needed” is preceded by a factual inaccuracy.
The following is a list of items that should definitely be cleared up:
1.History section; plagiarized sentence: “According to historian, somarathna [2], "The Ceylon Pentecostal Mission owes its origin to the ministry of Walter Clifford."” Is a direct copy of the same sentence on page 11 of source article [1], the plagiarized portion is without appropriate quotations or citation.
2.History section; plagiarized sentence: “The church also instituted indigenous forms of worship”, cites [6] as its source, but is a direct copy of the sentence “The CPM also instituted indigenous forms of worship” which is taken from source article [1] once again without appropriate quotation markings or citation.
3.Ministerial Responsibilities section; factual inaccuracy: the statement “including disposal of private possessions” is simply not true. All ministers, in fact, do have any number of accumulated personal private possessions – such as iPods, smart phones, laptops etc. Disposal of private possessions is not a requirement or an accepted responsibility and is certainly not practiced.
4.Ministerial Responsibilities section; factual inaccuracy: “TPM churches are run by full-time ministers who are celibate”. In the list of chief pastors – Pastor Freddy Paul, was the son of the founder Paul. How could that be possible if the ministers in charge were all celebrate? Furthermore, Pastor Shaji Managalath, listed in the list of current pastors also had a child while in charge of a church, there are numerous other examples.
5.Ministerial Responsibilities section; factual inaccuracy: “Married couples who enter full-time ministry will have to surrender their marital privileges and become celibate, and will be sent to different locations by the TPM leadership” – There are numerous examples of this statement being categorically untrue, the aforementioned Pas. Shaji being one of several.
6.Other activities; service of song: “But unfortunately many of these reels are not available for us to relish them.” – this statement is clearly divergent from the Neutrality principals that govern Wikipedia.
7.Other activities; service of song: “All songs are recorded in the Mission's recording theatre at Adyar and are a great attraction at the Annual International Conventions” – This is factually inaccurate, the bulk of English recording is performed at the facility in Newark, NJ.
8.Other activities, Sunday school ministry; qualified statements: “Each class has its own syllabus containing twenty lessons - ten from the Old Testament and ten from the New Testament (in most of the standards). Each lesson is accompanied by a moral and memory verse (except in some higher grades).” – both of these “facts” are then followed up by a qualifier, why put it in an encyclopedia if you’re not sure and cannot be bothered to check?
9.Other activities, Sunday school ministry factual inaccuracy: the statement “The Sunday School organization is unique in many ways” is then followed by an number of bias facts that indicate that the Sunday School is not in fact unique. Rebuttal: Fact 1: The majority of church assemblies select their Sunday school teachers from the ‘leaders’ or ‘best examples’ from the general assembly. Fact 2: The majority of church assemblies utilize volunteers to perform non-full time positions such as Sunday school teaching. Fact 3: This philosophy is applied by the majority of churches that operate a Sunday School.
10.Other activities, Sunday school ministry; Generalization: “Examinations are held matching the standards of Government” – The opening paragraph indicates the church operates in at least 41 countries, all of which have a government and all of which perform examinations differently. Furthermore, the implementation of the Sunday School is performed independently from Country to country by the local headquarters, the examination standards vary vastly. I only know how the examinations operate in two countries – neither is to the standard of any government.
11. Other activities, Sunday school ministry; subjective comment: “…are conducted for the encouragement of the children and the performers are rewarded well” – this is highly subjective and not all performers are rewarded at all, let alone well.
I have no doubt this article was written with honorable intensions however it is not even close to achieving Neutrality and is a borderline soapbox self promotion. Most likely the response to this comment will be a dismissal and a comment that I am just “bitter or frustrated with the church” or that I have “personal problems” or “could not maintain the standard”. This is an unfortunate attitude adopted by many members of the organization when any attempt at improvement is suggested, I have tried to provide this critique in good faith, while leaving out my personal opinions, take a good look at the points provided and your own writing.
Adding NPOV tag - the entire article reads like promotional copy from church members. Further, actual information has been taken out iin order to smooth the edges over this particular organisation.
````  — Preceding unsigned comment added by T2248050 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs significant clean up 

message: As you all may know that the wikipedia has a set of rules and regulations in the article that has been written. I believe that who ever has written has not written the latest posts in their personal way to show about church but too let others know the information of the church. Hence kindly do the needful and write it in neutral form. rencin24
:Much of this article is not referenced, and there is no way to correct it. There are virtually no sources that can support anything in the whole article. The church itself has no website, so any information about the church's doctrine is basically unreferenced. The whole article was written on original research, which is not permitted by Wikipedia. There is no way that anything in this article can be proven. That being said, I believe that the best thing to do is have this article removed. In no way am I against this church, in fact I am a member of it. NewByzantine (talk) 20:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct the article and write it properly. 

message: This seems like a primary source and a blog to boot and should not be used without the appropriate secondary sources covering the material. --NeilN talk to me 16:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  To TPM with love 

message: To all concerned... knock it off or blocks will follow. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Warring 

message: 202.88.240.222 (talk) 09:08, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER  ★ 11:00, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 March 2017 

message: Hi, To all who keeps undoing the edits, I've added details about Alwin de Alwis and used citations from independent sources. Just because you don't like the history of TPM, doesn't mean you get to censor it. 
I've also mentioned about the murder of Kanagaraj with citations from "The Hindu" and "dtnext", both well known news sources. Patricksrichard (talk) 09:50, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You've also added or restored material from primary sources, blogs from websites devoted to criticizing the church, and your own YouTube videos so any material you add must be closely scrutinized. Also, please read WP:COI. --NeilN talk to me 09:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

text: That's cool. I was talking about those who keep blanking out sections. I'm actually a longterm member of this church who is tired of the one sided presentation of selective history this church presents everywhere. I only meant to bring a balance to this page. Moreover, I never reverted an edit by any of the wiki admins. For example, whenever you removed citations from "fromtpm" and "totpmwithlove" and you gave your reason, I never put them back in. I only reverted edits from autoconfirmed users who kept blanking sections even though the citations were reliable. Patricksrichard (talk) 10:08, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  I've added certain details about TPM from unbiased sources 

message: I went through lot of sites and found that the murder is unsubstantiated. 
Please have it removed.  Jeril842002 (talk) 11:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsubstantiated info about muder 

message: What is the basis of the sub section on Pastor Alwin? I see only one link and that also doesnt talk about him? Jeril842002 (talk) 14:22, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Quacking....Lectonar (talk) 14:22, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

text: It's an opinion....which you obviously do not share. Funny how a new user knows its way around here...which is another opinion of mine. And I have asked you a clear question at WP:RFP, btw. Depending on your answer, I might retract here when you have replied there fully. Lectonar (talk) 14:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Added here by . Patrick, please provide the exact text from the source which back this up. --NeilN talk to me 14:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

text: This is from page 42 and 43 of the source. 
"Alwin even went to the extent of falsely accusing, humiliating and excommunicating Freddy Paul, who in fact had always been loyal to him. This altercation then spread throughout the Indian Mainland. After the events reached a peak in Ceylon, the Malayali A.C. Thomas, who was stationed in France and was responsible for the work in Europe, came from Europe to Madras. He presented the letter of a famous and much respected sister from a Faith home in London, in which she accused Alwin of a sexual attack on her. Simultaneously a rumor was spread that Alwin went around preaching a new doctrine called Edenic Perfection that supported unchaste practices (Alwin had introduced a sort of "holiness test" in the Faith Homes to see whether the men had really overcome their worldly desires. In order to test it, men were exposed to the sight of naked sisters. However it is difficult to decide whether such Adamite practices really existed), undermining Alwin's moral integrity and adding the credibility to the letter. Though many details remain vague, it seems certain that Thomas tried to overthrow Alwin on the basis of these accusations and to win the support of the Malayalo pastors with the hope of succeeding Alwin. This plan failed, however, because of the opposition of Tamil pastors and of those who suspected the ambitions of Thomas. It was thus agreed to have Freddy Paul as Alwin's successor. At the time of the conflict any reconciliation with Alwin was no longer possible. The conflict had taken on a life of its own, and Alwin had lost any sense of reality. From his side, nothing was done to placate the pasties  and he uttered only hate-ridden tirades against those of his opponents. Alwin was officially excommunicated by Freddy Paul in 1962." Patricksrichard (talk) 15:27, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

text: Thank you. Excommunicated is sourced, "excommunicated for sexual immorality"  is not. And how are you deriving, "Alwin was probably responsible for the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission's formulation of special teachings that caused its split from other Pentecostal churches"? --NeilN talk to me 15:39, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

text: "Alwin was probably responsible for the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission's formulation of special teachings that caused its split from other Pentecostal churches" is a direct quote from page 64 of the same source. Please find the full quote below.
"under the leadership of Alwin, celibacy was made an obligation for newly appointed pastors. Likewise the common living of pastors and sisters in Faith Homes was institutionalized. In addition, the radical doctrinal statements were explained to be binding for members of the church, a policy that separated the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission from the rest of the south Indian Pentecostal movement. Alwin was probably responsible for the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission's formulation of special teachings that caused its split from other Pentecostal churches. Those teachings were propagated in a series of publications." Patricksrichard (talk) 15:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then that needs to be reworded to avoid a copyright violation. Is there anything else in the article copied straight from the source? --NeilN talk to me 15:53, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

text: Just that according to my knowledge. Also I need a clarification. The earlier quote explains the circumstances surrounding Alwin's excommunication. One is a sister accusing him of sexual assault and the other is his new teachings where sisters were to walk naked in churches. How could the reason for his excommunication be worded if not "sexual immorality"? Patricksrichard (talk) 15:58, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You can describe (in your own words, please) the circumstances that led to his excommunication and let the readers draw their own conclusions. --NeilN talk to me 16:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

text:  Okay, I'm going ahead with writing that in my own words. Feel free to correct if you find anything wrong with it. Patricksrichard (talk) 18:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

text: Note: Marking the request as answered. Also the page is no longer protected. DRAGON BOOSTER  ★ 12:18, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2017 

message: Criticisms and Controversies are not based on established facts. Hence I request the authorities to remove it. Albin Anto (talk) 07:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER  ★ 08:20, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2017 

message: Pastor Alwin De Alwis
In the 1960s, a sister in the United Kingdom accused Pastor Alwin of sexually attacking her. Around the same time it was rumored that Alwin had introduced a new teaching called "Edenic Perfection" where sisters had to walk naked in Faith Homes to test if the men had overcome their worldly desires. Alwin was eventually excommunicated by Pastor Freddy Paul in 1962. After his excommunication, the property rights of Faith Homes were settled legally. [8]
Pastor Alwin introduced a teaching that made it mandatory for pastors to remain celibates. Communal living of unmarried pastors and sisters was institutionalized. Alwin introduced a lot of doctrinal statements that made it binding on the members of the church. These teachings introduced by Alwin was probably the reason for the split of CPM from other south Indian Pentecostal movements. [9]
Murder of Pastor Kanagaraj
In 2016, a pastor in Tuticorin was suspected to have murdered another pastor.[10][11]"
Please remove the above said paragraphs as it is not based on established facts. Albin Anto (talk) 07:50, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. —  IVORK Discuss 13:08, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  someone now seems to have done so! I hope the inclusion of this material can be discussed on this talk page, rather than a back and forth edit war. MPS1992 (talk) 02:18, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that the only reason to remove this information is because it is not flattering to this organization. That is not sufficient. If there is a better reason, I'm happy to see it. 331dot (talk) 02:42, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

text: I have removed the passage about a suspected pastor as that has little to do with this church itself and is merely an allegation according to what was written. 331dot (talk) 09:26, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2017 

message: This church has around 800 branches. Even with a ridiculously high estimate of 1000 members per church, the number would hardly reach 800000, a far cry from the claimed 20 million number. Patricksrichard (talk) 08:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the source for claiming this church has 20 million members? 

message: It would help if there was more context around Alwin's history with and role in the church. --NeilN talk to me 15:01, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alwin