Talk:Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (5.101)

message: 5.101 is a demonstration of the mapping between natural words like AND, OR, NOT, IF-THEN and binary number patterns.
To me, it does not follow that all philosophical problems are solved. The ForAll and ThereExist symbols, and the problems of object-oriented programming with Class definitions, for me, are still unsolved with the 5.101 notation.
::Wittgenstein was probably quite aware of this, having studied under Russell and Frege, who invented said logical apparatus.  (That said, the distinction between propositional and predicate logic was not fully worked out until a good decade later). But the view expressed in the Tractatus of things like variables and names suggests that this may not have been a problem: W. arguably viewed universaly generalizations as unanalyzed propositions which, fully analyzed, would turn out to be about--to name--each specific individual object.  Quantified logic could in this way be reduced to something like propositional logic (An extensional one: not, for example, counterfactually or modally robust, nor even able to accommodate unknown information.) It was, of course, problems with "hooking" up such a view of language to the actual world that (among other things) led W. to reconsider these views.
::In any case, your remark is confused: You say that not all philosophical problems are solved, and as evidence you present (1) Two symbols which you call unsolved.  What does that mean?  Do you perhaps mean that there were residual philosophical problems only formulable using those symbols?  No doubt there are, but you don't present any. (2) The problems of object-oriented programming etc.  But since programming didn't exist in 1922, how could any programming problems have existed then?  This doesn't vitiate W's claim to have solved all philosophical problems, and even if programming problems are a kind of philosophical problem (which is rather dubious), it wouldn't vitiate a claim to have solved all philosophical problems that then existed.
:Re: it does not follow that all philosphical problems are solved: Wittgenstein realized this in his later life and wrote the Philosophical Investigations... although it doesn't address the formal logic problems, but rather philosophical problems with his methodology. --Wikiwikifast 02:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree here.  First, the "note" is not necessary.  Also, the discussion as to how boolean expressions are represented in C is also not necessary.--Antiframe 17:57, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I will comment out the Note. Ancheta Wis 09:29, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "All philosophical problems are solved"

message: Um, I'm a little confused by the "note" at the top of the page. While some of the implications may not be for the "layman", most of the article is perfectly readable. It certainly doesn't take "years" to understand a truth table... they're not that complicated.  func(talk) 02:50, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree here.  First, the "note" is not necessary.  Also, the discussion as to how boolean expressions are represented in C is also not necessary.--Antiframe 17:57, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I will comment out the Note. Ancheta Wis 09:29, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Note

message: When we step back and look at 5.101, it's dog-simple to an Engineer of today. Yet look at all this commentary. Can you imagine what grief the propositions which are a little more vague than this one are causing? It has to be true, that they are simply being ignored. But can you imagine the treasures that lie in them? Ancheta Wis 23:41, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't Wittgenstein later renounce the "Tractatus"? Anyway, I'll try not to lose sleep tonight over the idea that there's hidden treasures in "Tractatus" yet to be implemented. --Wtshymanski 17:33, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  One of the simplest propositions of Tractatus! 

message: The main article points out that Proposition 6, in modern language is that all logical forms can be built from NANDs. That is something that all electrical engineers learn in school today. But that is like the fact that each bipolar transistor has 2 diodes in it, so the same form of statement could be said about diodes being a basic element (but at another layer of engineering design).
The editor points out that the Sheffer stroke (1913) is probably where W. got his idea.
I suppose that is the basis of the statement of the "equivalence of random logic and memory arrays", and the whole reason for the existence of the FPGA as an electronic product. Ancheta Wis 09:53, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NAND gates 

message: After this discussion with Banno and Wtshymanski, I propose to move the draft to the article  page, but change one of the categories from EE to :category:Cybernetics. I will wait one day before the move, if there are no objectors. Sorry if this has been a difficult climb for the participants. But we appear to be at a saddle point in the mountain range; we can see higher peaks ahead, and all around us; but in the valleys below, we can see where we have been before. Banno and Wtshymanski, I have learned something.  Thank you. Ancheta Wis 10:46, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection here, I think the article  will serve our hypothetical bright 12-year-old reader better in the "Cybernetics" category than in the "Electrical Engineering" category. --Wtshymanski 14:16, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cybernetics cat 

message: Ancheta, Why have you done this? Just edit them into the main doc. We can discuss them there. Why don't you use the Wiki conventions for referencing? Author first in the citation; and a citation should point to the entry in the article that discusses the Author (Wittgenstein, in this case) not to the bibliography of the article - what you have done means that the reader interested in checking your claims is forced to trace the comment from the citation. Clumsy, difficult and unhelpful. 
I am not an engineer, and so I will leave checking some of the references to others; but some things are clear. The link to Sowa leads to a bibliography that references anyone who touched logic in the last hundred years; it certainly does not support the claim thatWittgenstein simply demonstrated that some ordinary English words (or originally German words), "and, or and not", have exact mathematical counterpart as you claim - not surprising, since this is not an original claim made by Wittgenstein. Zach clearly and correctly states that W. did not develop truth tables. And the reference appears to be to a lunchtime seminar! 
The Schmid reference is to a footnote that W. "Deconstructed the purely true". What does that mean, and how does it help your case?
None of these few I've looked at do what was required. I don't think you have supported your case. Banno 22:11, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
:We speak across a gulf, due to our differing backgrounds. What is obvious to you is not to me and vice versa. I seek to build the case. In my readings, I have found support for the case, but in so doing, have realized that my work on the scientific method has a built-in POV which exemplifies the ontology of  logical positivism (Vienna Circle, etc.) Historically, W. appeared on the scene with a framework built up from Frege and Russell (in his answer to R's Theory of Types), which the Vienna Circle simply subsumed, as W watched. I believe I can build up the case starting from Proposition 5, if I assume that it is the proper grounding. I am starting from a historical reconstruction of  W's background in Janik and Toulmin (1973, 1996) ISBN 1-56663-132-7. This source also shows the point at which W turns away from TLP. However TLP is seminal for Engineering as the hits on IEEE above show, and Kurzweil is my source for the logical positivism link which all computer programming, electrical engineering, and business is following. (They are all implementing agents of one ilk or another). Since, by definition, an agent shares the ontology of its Principal, I need to include these factors in the case. Thus 5.101 is merely a small part (although crucial from an implementation POV) of the case. I hope that I do not have to go back further than 5. Kurzweil and the other engineers seem to be starting at 2. One of the reasons that TLP is good at what it does is that it is short. That brevity is what gives me hope that I can start at 5 and stop somewhere past 5.101 but not too much farther. Ancheta Wis 15:55, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have taken your critique. The statement to which the first disputed template refers is replaced by statements about truth-functions which are directly taken from 5.101 with no other claim. The second disputed template is answered by the internal evidence of the words in 5.101 (the existence of and or not etc. in each row of Tractatus 5.101 in direct one-to-one correspondence to a row in 5.101). Ancheta Wis 14:18, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Draft

message: Thank you Ancheta. I appreciate that you have worked hard on this article. I have incorporated some of the material from here into the main article. But I have marked a few problems. In essence:
# I don't think that there is a strong case that the contents of 5.101 are original in the Tractatus. The material, as with most of the Tractatus, is a summary of the work of others, as W. says in the preface. There is original material in the Tractatus, but this ain't it.
# The article can be read as claiming originality on the part of W. that is simply not the case - for instance that prior to the Tractatus, Boolean operators were not seen as mathematical (as in "truth-functions... correspond to expressions using only some ordinary English words ...and, or and not" - this is Boole's work, not W.'s.).  
# The references you provide do not support your case, neither for the originality of 5.101, nor for the impact of 5.101 on computing.
I think that this article should be listed for deletion, and some of its material re-incorporated into the main article. Banno 19:29, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
:To repeat a comment from above I do not disagree that 5.101 should be part of the main TLP article. But if it is judged only a minor part of the main article, then I appreciate your edit to the statement about 5.101 being a special case of a Gödel code. However W's theory of language (Proposition 2 etc) also needs to be discussed. If there is no further discussion per the above talk, in Truth table or Truth function, then those are deficiencies in those articles which 5.101's current content could be used to improve. I am not tied to the 5.101 article, as it may appear, and do not seek its retention. 5.101's appeal is that it is clear, as opposed to some of the other propositions in TLP which appear obscure because of their pioneering character. One of these obscure  items is W's acceptance of contradiction as a  valid result. This was directly opposed by Turing, who stood up to W in his classes. (W. backed off, but ...)  W. had a seminal part in the histories of positivism, of logic, of computing, and of cybernetics, even if this is seen only retrospectively and not in the direct line of attribution to Shannon, Zuse, Wiener etc. I do not disagree with your statements but rather believe there is yet value in 5.101. Ancheta Wis 20:11, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is actually amusing. When I re-instated this proposition some time ago, I certainly did not intend that it be one of the few entries in TLP. The original entries said more about the propositions here. How about nominating some proposition for reading, and then getting peo to write about it? I got something out of 3.33-3.334, and how W. considered it to be part of the response to the antinomy in the Theory of Types. But I would guess that that is a minor prop. as well in your view. Ancheta Wis 20:41, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Based on my re-readings of TLP etc, I would venture that his propositions 6.* on Ethics and Esthetics rank in importance to the rest of the logic part. That is the thesis of Janik and Toulmin. I could write something about this. Ancheta Wis 20:57, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

text: He stayed out of big trouble using 7. I perhaps should follow that example. But I can make a first try at 6.5. Where do you want it, as a separate page, to keep the TLP article small? Ancheta Wis 21:13, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed