Template talk:Periodic table

message: :IMHO it ought to follow the periodic table as presented by prominent textbooks such as Greenwood & Earnshaw, Holleman & Wiberg, Cotton & Wilkinson, Shriver & Atkins, and Housecroft & Sharpe, putting La and Ac in group 3 instead of Lu and Lr. There are a few reasons for this.
:#Firstly, this is the way the vast majority of chemists would have learned it, judging by how it is the dominant form in textbooks (I've already listed five of the most commonly used inorganic chemistry textbooks in my opening paragraph, and not a single one uses anything other than Sc-Y-La-Ac). (You can read a chemist's incredulous reaction to the -Lu-Lr form in Talk:Yttrium#Periodic group to judge how uncommon it is in academic circles that are not specifically debating the composition of the periodic table: Petergans seems to never have been aware of the -Lu-Lr option before this.) When common usage conflicts with IUPAC, the former generally wins on Wikipedia: hence we have articles on phosphine, arsine, stibine, and bismuthine, instead of the IUPAC-approved phosphane, arsane, stibane, and bismuthane.
:#Secondly, if we look at electron configurations in the solid phase (more relevant for chemistry than the usually provided gas-phase electron configurations), most of the lanthanides and actinides (with only seven exceptions out of thirty: Eu, Yb; Th, Es, Fm, Md, No) have an fnd1s2 configurations. If you go across the lanthanide row, what appears to happen is that a 5d electron is added at La, and it stays there throughout as the 4f shell fills from Ce to Lu (except at Eu and Yb where it drops down to bring the 4f shell up to being half-filled or fully filled, but this is not a problem given that much the same thing happens with Cr and Cu as the 3d shell fills). Much the same happens for the actinide row. This implies that one column of the d-block fills, the f-block intervenes, and then the rest of the d-block fills. This is something you see in the Sc-Y-La-Ac table only, not the IUPAC Sc-Y-*-** table or the Sc-Y-Lu-Lr table currently given.
:#Lastly, the IUPAC Sc-Y-*-** table is somewhat unsatisfactory as it does not provide a good answer to the composition of group 3. It seems to imply that there are 32 elements in group 3: Sc, Y, and all 30 lanthanides and actinides. This view has been held in the past, but it is emphatically not the view you will find in most textbooks today in English or German (don't know about other languages), which is that group 3 (like any other transition group) has only four elements: Sc, Y, La, and Ac. Even Cotton & Wilkinson, while covering these elements with the other 14 lanthanides (Ce–Lu) on the grounds of chemical similarities, specifically entitles the chapter "The Group 3 Elements and the Lanthanides", making it quite clear that these are separate categories. Furthermore, when expanded out into the 32-column format as in the footer, it seems to imply that the Sc and Y boxes be stretched to cover fifteen columns each, which is not something I have seen anybody at all seriously suggest.
:In light of this, I support that a Sc-Y-La-Ac table be used instead of the current Sc-Y-Lu-Lr table or the ambiguous IUPAC Sc-Y-*-** table. I get the feeling that there is a tendency to overestimate the scale of the debate on the composition of group 3. It seems to stem largely from a vocal minority, including for example Jensen and Scerri, that has repeatedly argued for the Sc-Y-Lu-Lr table in many articles. But if you look at chemistry education circles, and what professional chemists think, the debate looks like it was concluded long ago in favour of Sc-Y-La-Ac. It does not hurt that there are also sound chemical arguments on this side. The navboxes and infoboxes would then be edited accordingly to move Sc and Y. Double sharp (talk) 08:47, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Double sharp's comments

message: For the La and Ac and the Lu and Lr periodic tables, the following two tables (courtesy of Sandbh) compare the idealized numbers of f electrons for period 6 and 7 f-block elements with the actual numbers of f electrons in their solid states (rather than their gaseous states). There are 6½ irregularities in the first table compared to 21½ in the second out of a total of 28 elements.
TABLE 1: Sc-Y-La-Ac periodic table f-block showing electron configurations
(light grey shading = match with idealized number of f electrons; dark grey shading = irregularity)
Idealized f-electrons	1 	2 	3 	4 	5 	6 	7 	8 	9 	10	11	12	13	14
Period 6             	Ce	Pr	Nd	Pm	Sm	Eu	Gd	Tb	Dy	Ho	Er	Tm	Yb	Lu
Actual number        	1 	2 	3 	4 	5 	7 	7 	8 	9 	10	11	12	14	14
Period 7             	Th	Pa	U 	Np	Pu	Am	Cm	Bk	Cf	Es	Fm	Md	No	Lr
Actual number        	½ 	2 	3 	4 	5 	6 	7 	8 	9 	11	12	13	14	14
TABLE 2: Sc-Y-Lu-Lr periodic table
Idealized f-electrons	1 	2 	3 	4 	5 	6 	7 	8 	9 	10	11	12	13	14
Period 6             	La	Ce	Pr	Nd	Pm	Sm	Eu	Gd	Tb	Dy	Ho	Er	Tm	Yb
Actual number        	0 	1 	2 	3 	4 	5 	7 	7 	8 	9 	10	11	12	14
Period 7             	Ac	Th	Pa	U 	Np	Pu	Am	Cm	Bk	Cf	Es	Fm	Md	No
Actual number        	0 	½ 	2 	3 	4 	5 	6 	7 	8 	9 	11	12	13	14
Double sharp (talk) 14:05, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Tables

message: regarding: "Should we keep the current configuration or apply the IUPAC version instead?"
Show Both. Per WP:NPOV all important points of view are to be presented and explained.  CuriousMind01 (talk) 11:57, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with that is that it looks daft to give multiple periodic tables whenever you want to talk about an element's position there, especially if it's something like iodine which is nowhere near the contentious zone. Of course we talk about all three common versions in periodic table, but surely we need to choose one to use as a default? Double sharp (talk) 12:23, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In any event, there is no such thing as an IUPAC version since IUPAC does not have a position on a preferred form of table. Sandbh (talk) 20:35, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I should also note that as DePiep has pointed out, even IUPAC has now abandoned the Sc-Y-*-** version attributed to them, and is deciding only between Sc-Y-La-Ac (currently more common) and Sc-Y-Lu-Lr (the current configuration on WP, advocated by some for various reasons, although I disagree with them). So the only two possible outcomes of this RFC as I see it are: (1) keep the current configuration and apply it consistently, harmonising 32- and 18-column tables, including marking Lu and Lr as group 3 members in the infoboxes, etc.; (2) switch to Sc-Y-La-Ac and apply that consistently, harmonising 32- and 18-column tables, including marking La and Ac as group 3 members in the infoboxes, etc. Whatever we do, La/Lu (and Ac/Lr) will still be classified as lanthanides (and actinides), so it is only their spatial position that is in question. Double sharp (talk) 08:27, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: CuriousMind01's comments

message: :*From a Wikipedia's approach IUPAC is just one of the sources and unless it is not dediced that IUPAC is prominent against other sources, I don't see why it should be preferred, although I noticed that in some instances WP has preferred to use IUPAC definitions even when alternative are more common (e.g. propene instead of propylene). However, I just checked on three books at home. All of them (Morrison & Boyd - Organic Chemistry, Perry's Chemical Engineers' Handbook - Solomons - Organic Chemistry) use the Sc-Y-La-Ac template, with Lu-Lr at the end of the lanthanides/actinides block. Said that, my books are 20 years old, I don't now if more recent editions report the same version of the periodic table. 
:*It looks IUPAC propose a different template to overcome the issue of the Sc-Y-La-Ac or Sc-Y-Lu-Lr choice. Nevertheless, IUPAC template is somehow in discontinuity with the historical arguments from which the periodic table stems, namely but nor limited to the homogeneity of physical and chemical properties of the elements across the same group (please note that La and Ac have very similar properties). Somehow, the IUPAC template suggest the group III has 32 elements and not 4 (as all other d-block elements). My preference would be therefore for the Sc-Y-La-Ac template. Silvio1973 (talk) 09:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "It looks IUPAC propose a different template ...": I don't understand. AFAIK, this is the "IUPAC PT" (saying group 3 = 32 elements). But this is not a proposal to overcome ...', it is the predecessor from which the more recent pair of 'group 3 = 4 elements' come. IUPAC, and most other older sources, have just copied the original LN/AN extension (all into group 3). That IUPAC today still has it up is not a source, it just never has been evaluated (until Jensen, Scerri, etc., came along). The IUPAC version is not a scientific statement for group 3 any more. -DePiep (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, fair interpretation. It is a fact that IUPAC does not say the group 3 contains 32 elements, but their template for the periodic template strongly suggests it or alternatively should we understand that group 3 contains only 2 elements? The classification of elements in groups is a direct consequence of the periodic table, even if per se a statement is not made. However my point is another. This template  does not seem to be used in secondary sources. Silvio1973 (talk) 12:59, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. (As a sidenote: I claim that "IUPAC PT says that group 3 has 32 elements", because the column heading "3" contains all LN and AN too (becomes clear once the placeholding is revolved). -DePiep (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, regarding propene vs propylene; there is a regional difference on what name is used. (As another example, isopropyl alcohol is common in the US, but in the UK you will hear instead isopropanol. No one calls it 2-propanol! But I think laymen will know it better by the first name, so we use that.) So I think the WP policy is more like "we follow common usage, except when that is unclear, in which case we follow IUPAC". Double sharp (talk) 08:46, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I work in the petrochemical and oil business and it is propylene in US, the UK, everywhere. No-one uses propene. Silvio1973 (talk) 19:28, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "propene vs propylene" is not part of this RfC. Stop it. -DePiep (talk) 01:14, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This one may depend somewhat on field. I've heard chemists using both 'propene' and 'propylene' and it seems about equally split, though maybe part of this comes from the fact that in English the systematic names are taught first (only for fresh-faced chemistry students to walk into their first lecture and get utterly confused by acetaldehyde, acetone, butyric acid, and phosgene...). But as DePiep says, this is off-topic here. Double sharp (talk) 02:05, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Silvio73's comments

message: Just in case you watch this page but not the one for the periodic table itself, please be aware that there is a current discussion which, if successful in reaching a consensus, would replace this template with a tweaked version around the Lanthanides/Actinides (especially the asterisk parts). Please make any comments there, not here. Michael D. Turnbull (talk) 17:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion to alter all en:Wiki templates of this type, keeping them consistent 

message: With Wikipedia:Vector 2022 I have to use a horizontal scrollbar to see the noble gases (after I found out why the noble gases were missing). This problem does not appear with Vector legacy (2010) or in the mobile version (en.m.wikipedia.org). Is there a way to fix this for Vector2022 without breaking it in other cases? Kallichore (talk) 10:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vector 2022 and the horizontal scrollbar