Talk:Podcast/Archive 5

message: Currently, "Podcast" redirects to "Podcasting". Since the article discusses both and Podcast is the more general word (Google: Podcast: 411 million hits vs. Podcasting: 105 million hits]), how about if we move this article to "Podcast", redirect "Podcasting" there and reword the intro sentence a little bit? Sergeyy 21:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? It will create a TON of redirects with no real purpose, except possible a sort of need for tidiness. Nobody can't find this article right now because of a weird name. - DavidWBrooks 21:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: How much work it will create shouldn't be a reason not to move. I agree that we should move the article to Podcast. -- Ned Scott 00:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've got nothing against a move if only somebody handles all those redirects and double-redirects. --GunnarRene 00:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: There are precedents for both approaches: broadcasting, singing, drinking, radio_programming vs. dance, speech, design, television_program. The change  might result in many attempts to rewrite the first paragraph to focus on the noun "podcast" instead of the verb. I think the change would be more trouble than it's worth. Alternative: A disambiguation page for the noun vs. verb, as in broadcast. That also could be the place to disentangle the Oxford definition (any audio "made available" online) and the more technically correct "distributed by subscription feed." Bstepno 17:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Podcast 

message: Where does youtube fit in? 203.97.2.34 06:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not as podcasting. It fits in with google video, vlog and video on demand.  You can subscribe to videos, but it's not podcasting since there's not a client that automatically downloads videos from a stream. Correct? --GunnarRene 06:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. Peter S. 22:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can YouTube be considered a form as Pod Casting? 

message: I deleted the table of applications. Now, such a list might be somewhat useful, but it's hard to keep current and there are so many podcast applications these days. Also, such lists might attract advertising links to non-notable products. I don't feel strongly about this either way, but my main argument is that the need for currency of information and editorial vetting makes such a table more suitable for a publication in the WP:RS category than in the encyclopedia that everyone can edit; or perhaps in a software directory. Can't we supply links to such sites rather than having to update the information ourselves?--GunnarRene 22:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me. It's a good example of material that was relevant, due to novelty, when podcasting was new but is now so routine as to not be relevant. - DavidWBrooks 00:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. I had added it due to the merge and redirect from Podcatcher, but have no attachment to the list :) -- Ned Scott 06:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There was still a "See also: Podcatcher" listing, which looped back to the podcasting page. I  commented it out, but it probably should be deleted if this discussion doesn't shift directions. The History of podcasting page still has references to early podcatching programs, which seems appropriate. So I added a parenthetical cross-ref in the Mechanics section, including an attempt to discourage rebuilding a list.Bstepno 16:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Applications 

message: I'm curious about the merging of "Podcatcher" with the "Podcast" entry. It appears that the merger took place as Podcatcher now redirects. I'll disclose up front the reason for my curiosity: in the original "Podcatcher" entry, it was noted that I coined the term on 10/9/2004. It was coined in a on-line review of Doppler posted on the now defunct PocketPCTools website which can be validated via Google cache. That review became the basis of what I believe is the first print magazine mention of podcasting and podcatchers with a write up on how to listen to podcasts on a Pocket PC. The article hit print in January of 2005: See the February issue of Pocket PC Magazine here.
I've disclosed my personal interest up front in an effort of transparency. However, my ultimate question: is the origin of the term "podcatcher" relevant to this entry or the History of Podcasting entry? If not, no worries. Thanks! KevinTofel 15:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One person making up a word in one review does not make a term notable. Personally, I had never even heard of the term until coming across that article (of course I didn't make that my only reason to redirect it). Do we have examples of other notable magazine articles /reviews / etc where the word is used? -- Ned Scott 23:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely understand, but I'm surprised you've not heard the term prior to an article that's almost two years old. The word is used to describe numerous podcast aggregation applications as evidenced by a Google search on "podcatcher". Let me ask a different way: what are these podcast-specific aggregators generally called? Perhaps they're just called "aggregators", perhaps not. If the term isn't notable, then there likely shouldn't be two paragraphs devoted to the term in the current Podcasting Wikipedia entry. KevinTofel 15:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Applications? Clients? -- Ned Scott 20:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of 'Podcatcher' term? 

message: Added a 'See also' reference to Screencast & reorganized the  See Also links a bit into categories. 
* See Also
* General Podcasting Community
* Podcasting Distribution Networks
* Audio Podcasting
* Video Image Podcasting
-HTH Awildman 21:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See Also - Screen Casting 

message: -Apple has very little to do with the term Podcast. They should not have free advertisements including huge images included in this article.
-External links that link to podcasts and podcast directories that can be found outside of the relevant context of this article and would not otherwise merit individual inclusion in wikipedia have been deleted.
-The massive confusion and controversy around the term "podcasting" forces us all to make an open and powerful attempt to neutralize this article. 
-Apple currently has legal matters regarding the trademark of the terms pod and podcast. They are issueing C&D orders with questionable cause, wikipedia should not take sides in this issue by supporting Apple's claims.
-POD is an acronym for Portable on Demand. This can be found all over the next, many people, including myself still use this as our definition for the "pod" part of "podcasting".
That this article was flagged as a good article boggles the mind. IT is so riddled with misinformation an easily disprovable notions that it must get a total overhaul. As well as the good article procedure need to be revamped entirely.
Podcasting itself can stand on its own and be fully defined without needing to include Apple or one of many devices that are capable of playing some podcasts.  Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Products and Companies and the credit they deserve shall not be unsung, however will not be superfluously inserted where business and marketing interests are concerned.  Wikipedia is not an advertising service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Testerer (talk • contribs) .
::I understand what you are trying to get at, but the fact of the matter is the name itself only got picked up and used because of the mass use of iPods, and we all fucking know it. For crying out loud.. -- Ned Scott 06:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Cleanup:  This really needs a fix 

message: Ned, I appreciate your willingness for bold reversals of corrected material, but frankly your information is not currect.
E1: "Usually a podcast features one type of 'show', with new episodes released either sporadically or at planned intervals such as daily or weekly. In addition, there are podcast networks that feature multiple shows on the same feed."
This doesn't describe the term itself, nor is it at all accurate or specific. It is very general and unhelpful in nature. If you wanna discuss OPML feeds etc there is a place for that content in a more appropriate article. 
E2: "A Pod by any other name...
Does Apple own the pod? Could podcasting, podcasts, and anything with the word "Pod" in the name become the property of Apple computers? Current legal actions taken by Apple include applying to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office to register the word "pod" as a trademark [2] and filing cease and desist orders with any company using the word "pod" in their title. [3] [4]
In response, technology expert Leo Laporte has suggested changing the name to Netcast. [5]"
OK, This is full of pure speculation and moreover, poor writing. Does Apple own the pod? If you aren't going to include actual information then its not wiki worthy, sorry. It's not. Another huge thing is that this article includes polemics about the name itself rather than focusing on its mechanics. Since you've show complete disregard for my cleanups including reworking the layout of the page, prioritizing the mechanics of the podcasting rather than highling the obviously controversial origin of the term. What does the line about Leo Laporte have to do anything? Again, speculation and nothing substantial. 
E3: Apple's Podcasting Logo Must Go.
There is no reason such a company should recieve unfair exposure going so far as to include a trademarked logo in a public and supposedly informative wiki- It's got to go. Unless anyone has a reason for its inclusion I will again delete it. Put the image on the wiki for itunes or Apple but please either make the case for it being kept or respect the evolution of the wiki. All I've seen is  wide cut and paste, massive reversals of user (my) additions to this article. I did not do this when I attempted to first clean it up, I made a point and took the time to include the very important information that others before me had given. Might I suggest using a symbol for RSS or XML, something that actually describes podcasting specifically and not a single Podcasting product. 
E4: "Podcasting is an automatic mechanism whereby multimedia computer files are transferred from a server to a client, which pulls down XML files containing the Internet addresses of the media files"
This is wrong also. No XML files are pulled down by any aggregators. They are simply read, the feeds are not stored locally which this explanation implies. Podcasting also includes the process of downloading data automatically and then automatically sending it to a device. These files do not need to be "mutlimedia" (assuming you mean mp3, mp4, m4a, etc..) they can in fact be any type of file at all. The explanation is not only technically wrong, its incomplete.
E5: A podcast is generally analogous to a recorded television or radio series.
This is also not really the case, a podcast implies that the content is avaible through a feed for automated download. The content itself might be similiar to TV or Radio but its certainly not analogous in the way this single statement claims. Using the term Podcast makes different assumptions about means of syndication etc..
E6: The feed is a machine-readable list of the URLs by which episodes of the show may be accessed.
Machine-readable? Who wrote this? ;) The mechanics of Podcasting is of course a software solution to a problem, the only machines that come into play are the end devices that may or may not automatically be updated depending on user preference and features of the aggregator.
E7: Consumer enters this feed URI into a software program called a podcatcher, a type of aggregator.
Only a small number of people actually use the term "podcatcher". Podcasters themselves typically do not use this term, nor is a real term (ie: it's a made up term afterall). This is another example of  disinformation within this article. How about this as a fix "Consumer uses an aggregator (program designed to read and manage internet feeds) to download podcasts." Why include information that's not really true, and might confuse the average reader.
E8: (Early podcatchers are named in the History of podcasting page, but constantly updating a comprehensive list of software is beyond the scope of these encyclopedia entries.)
Very similiar criticism as the previous example, but even more so, this is written meta that doesn't need to be included, its obvious to anyone that a list of aggregators would not be included on the article about Podcasting. It is redundant, and continues to use the term Podcatcher (Which doesn't even have a wiki article of its' own ((for a reason)) which is disinformative.
E9: "# iTunes Podcast Step by Step
# Make Your First Podcast How to Podcast instructions for the beginner.
# Lists of podcast directories: CastWiki, Podcast 411, Digital Podcast, Podcasting News
# Podcasters Wiki
# Podfeed.net's Top 100 A list of the top 100 most subscribed podcasts via Feedburner.
# PodcastExpert.com Links to "how to" articles across the Internet on everything from creating RSS feeds to recording equipment"
The External Links section is full of Advertisements and for profit groups that have a personal interest in shaping information related to podcasting. I strongly believe that no website with such a financial stake in this matter merits inclusion under external links. Most of these are for profit groups. Others are not "notable" enough to be included in wikipedia themselves. Podfeed.net is the best example of a link that should not be included because they run advertisements including Google Ads and stand to make more money should they be included on this list.  
E10: The bit about Robert Scoble should be removed because its pure gossip and doesn't provide any information. This speculative assertion should moved to the article for Scoble and a discussion on its inclusion needs to take place there. 
There are many, many more examples of inaccuracies and disinformation, as well as blantant speculation on a term that isn't actually linked to one person. I hope the discussion can continue and that changes are not made without fair discourse.
thanks- Testerer
:While I agree with most of what you brought up, I disagree with the whole issue if ignoring that the iPod effected the name itself. Portable on demand? give me a fucking break. You really think people who use the term pod-casting actually think it means that? Right now I'm not willing to pick through the edits to separate the good from the bad. Your objections to the external links section is based on morals, which is honorable and all, but that's NOT how we do things on Wikipedia. We do not exclude information or attempt to rewrite history because someone made a dollar off of it. Again, I agree with most of your edits, but at the current moment I'm unable to sort through them. -- Ned Scott 07:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of who's right -  I think the iPod connection is pretty well established, but don't know enough to be certain - the current write-up in embarrassingly sophomoric in its whiny polemic tone. Whoever is responsible should try to rewrite it (which partly means cut it WAY down) like a grown-up, and then they'll have more chance of it being judged on the facts - DavidWBrooks 16:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Heh, personal attacks are not acceptable on Wikipedia, please see WP:NPA. I am not a fanboy, I don't own an iPod, and I don't subscribe to podcasts. But I do know what they are, and I was around when they became big. You calling my actions vandalism is absurd and rude. According to WP:V, a core policy on Wikipedia, the burden of proof is on you, the editor wishing to include the change, not those who seek to remove it. Is Apple a bunch of assholes for trying to copyright "pod"? hell yes, and I wish they wouldn't pull shit like that, but Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- Ned Scott 00:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How's this? It doesn't contain a lot of the original research that was found with both claims, is a lot cleaner, and still includes the rest of your edits. -- Ned Scott 01:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps I'm missing it, but there's no evidence in the article, or the history article, about the "portable on demand" acronym existing pre-iPod. Since it has been claimed in previous discussion that this was a backronym made up after the fact by people annoyed at Apple's dominance, the statement needs some backup or I'm sure it will get removed. - DavidWBrooks 10:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't try to convince me: convince the readers of the article. (Although I'm not sure what an acronym related to storage containers has to do with MP3 players - unless Apple took the name "iPod" from the Personal-on-Demand acronym they found in other industries? I've always assumed they just chose it because of the sound and look of the machines, but perhaps that's wrong.) As far as I can see, the history article says the first mention of the "pod" name was in 2004 - which supports the theory that it was born out of association with "iPod", not anything else. If that's not correct, the article needs to be changed. - DavidWBrooks 01:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Why don't you put some of these in the article, instead of here in the talk space? Do you know how to do references? - DavidWBrooks 15:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples of why this Articles needs a lot of Work, Please stop just undoing without a fair discussion 

message: This is just a note to say that I'd really like to see here - prominently - a simple guide for people who've heard of podcasting but aren't sure yet exactly what it is or how they can subscribe to podcasts. Shouldn't take too much work, but I'm not very experienced in the area so I'm not sure I'm the best person for the job. Anyone? --Oolong 14:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not NOT to do that sort of thing - to quote from the list of things that Wikipedia is not: "Wikipedia articles should not include instruction - advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes." Also, there are a bazillion instruction sets for podcasting online; it's not like it's some secret we need to reveal. - DavidWBrooks 16:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guide for new users