Talk:Zell Miller

message: He glosses over the policy changes of the Democrats and the historical reasons for their divergence from Southern politicians'; his real complaint is that he disagrees with the Democrats' policy positions (positions he agreed with as recently as 1992, when he spoke to the Democratic National Convention), but he couches the split in the language of anti-Southern bigotry.
This passage hardly strikes me as NPOV. Angry liberals engaged in edit wars again?
:I think this passage is essentially correct, but I'm an angry liberal...I agree that it's not NPOV - certainly in that form it is quite POV. john k 01:10, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What, the encyclopedia article would be better if a POV comment was couched with "in my opinion"?  Surely that would be just as bad.  I'd note there's some bizarre POV from the other end - for instance, it essentially backdates Miller's conservatism to his time as Governor, which isn't really true.  Also, the idea that he is not now a Republican and remains a "lifelong Democrat" is rather dubious - he's giving the keynote address at the Republican National Convention. john k 13:32, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I made some edits on this article today. If there are comments or concerns these edits, please post them here. Rex071404   07:34, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits today

message: I badly bungled an edit. I'm not sure how. (All but one section was wiped). I thank Willmcw for catching it promptly and kindly alerting me, very politely. 
Im disappointed at my clumsiness, but also at the loss of some good NEUTRAL changes. Ah well :-/. I'll have another go, and I'll PREVIEW next time. I really do wish I could figure out how it happened...
Again, my apologies to the community.
Holmwood 08:46, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrible Holmwood edit -- My apologies, and thanks Willmcw

message: Dropped this busted link:
:*2004 Sep. 1, text and video of the speech at Republican National Convention, http://www.gopconvention.com/rewind/wed.shtml.
That site has been taken down and redirected to the Republican national committee page. Ellsworth 16:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Busted link

message: I think we should clarify this because the one writes "drunk driver" and the next "convicted of". This kind of information doesn't reach us here in Germany. Was he only convicted of drunk driving or was he condamned of drunk driving? --Metalking 06:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Drunken or not?

message: This should not be an opinion piece. Should vindicatory statements be inserted somewhere else?
:You are right, that paragraph reads like a POV essay, rather than a summary of verifiable sources. We should remove it. -Will Beback 01:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The last paragraph of the critisism section

message: Altered this somewhat. To his discredit, I included the drunk tank stuff (this is easily sourceable within his own autobiography). To his credit, I killed off the silly kos-kidz "peacetime military service" stuff, and tried to speak about, from a neutral POV, what happened. 
If wikipedians aren't mature enough to accept this edit, I want it removed entirely (since the whole thing is balanced)... not just "heh, let's remove the non-peacetime stuff, and leave the drunk".
Moreover, volunteering for the forces in 50-55 was a pretty serious thing. The cold war was running hot; to describe this as "peace-time" is highly misleading. Describe it as "During the nominally peaceful periods of the often-hot Cold War" ... fine.
Holmwood 15:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Early Life

message: Removed the editorializing regarding the alleged 2 party system in North Georgia - not germane, since Miller was a southern Democrat.  Removed the "whitewashing" (and trivializing) of Miller's segregationist past - Miller unsuccessfully ran twice against the Democratic incumbent in 1964 and 1966 - the Democrat was a segregationist, but Miller tried to paint him as not strong enough on segregation.  Removed the hillbilly stuff for quality Faveuncle 13:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Politics

message: I just reverted Leaton's addition of what I thought to be POV, unencyclopedic information that sounded like it came from a political opponent's mailer or website. (I doubt this is the case, but what I mean is that it had that sort of tone and bias.) I reproduce it here, for reference:
Some noteworthy events from Mr. Miller's incumbancy as Governor of Georgia:
- Sued by taxpayers for institution of 'casual sales tax' without the constitutional authority to do so. When it appeared he would loose, he repealed it. The court struck down the illegal tax and the state was forced to refund all that was collected. - Sued by taxpayers over illegally taxing federal pensions. Courts struck down the tax and it was repealed. - Pushed for, and recieved an increase in the rate of state sales tax by 33% - Pushed for, and recieved a law permitting local option sales tax, and thus Georgia taxpayers are saddled with a sales tax rate that was 3% - statewide prior to his first term as Governor. Afterward, it ranged from 4% to 7% depending on the area. - Sued by taxpayers for illegally instituting a tax for registration of autos brought into the state from elsewhere. The court struck the tax down and forced the state to refund it to all that applied for the refund. - Broke original campaign promise to not run for a second term as governor. - Promised to remove state sales tax on food. During first term, broke promise by blaming 'complexity.' Finally passed during 2nd term, but definition of exempt food was narrowed to exclude almost everything but raw farm products. Exemption only applied to state portion of tax, local tax still charged. - Instituted many new taxes including tire disposal tax, rental tax.
In a very similar vein, on June 14, I reverted the following additions by anonymous editor 65.210.142.102:
Some noteable items from Zell's record as governor:
- Sued by taxpayers for institution of 'casual sales tax' without the constitutional authority to do so. When it appeared he would loose, he repealed it. The court struck down the illegal tax and ordered the state to provide refunds.
- Sued by taxpayers over illegally taxing federal pensions. Courts struck down the tax and it was repealed.
- Zell pushed for, and recieved an increase in the rate state sales tax by 33%
- Zell pushed for, and recieved a law permitting local option sales tax, and thus Georgia taxpayers are saddled with a sales tax rate that was 3% - statewide - to range anywhere from 4% to 8% depending on the area.
- Sued by taxpayers for illegally instituting a tax for registration of autos brought into the state from elsewhere. The court struck the tax down and forced the state to provide refunds
- Broke original campaign promise to not run for a second term as governor.
- Promised to remove state sales tax on food. Took several years and many excuses before institution of this. Definition of exempt food was narrowed to exclude almost everything but raw ingredients. Exemption only applied to state portion of tax, local tax still charged.
- Instituted many new taxes including tire disposal tax, rental tax.
I haven't checked but these appear to be nearly-identical texts, if not the same. I have no idea whether Leaton and the anon editor are the same, and it really doesn't matter -- the point is, in neither case does a (badly) bulleted list of Miller's tax increases belong in this or any encyclopedia. Some of this might belong -- items such as the state food tax and the second term he said he wouldn't seek were certainly noteworthy, and might belong here if formatted properly (as a paragraph, in the appropriate place in the article). Some of the other stuff probably shouldn't be in the article.
As always, please please please cite a source for every point you make. That doesn't happen in a lot of articles, I know, but it should, especially when you make broad allegations about a governor who served eight years in office -- I'm certainly not going to check every single fact, and I know most readers aren't. You must provide your references for us, per Wikipedia policy. Also, as I mentioned above, editors need to be careful not to inject their own point of view in the articles -- this is also WP policy and important to make sure we don't become another forum for people's opinions when we're supposed to be a place for verifiable facts.
Thanks in advance to everyone for following the guidelines in the future. --SuperNova |T|C| 05:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverted addition of biased "facts" to article

message: I am putting Zell in the born again Christian, and B-A-C-politician categories because he claimed such in his book "Was Blind But Now I See" (see excerpt )
Anonymous Wikipedian 20:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Born Again Christian Category

message: This section was just way too long, obviously written by an opponent and full of extraneous information. I trimmed it back to retain what seems important, culling things like John McCain's reaction to Miller's RNC speech on the Daily Show. I'm sure debate on this will continue, but for the record I'm not trying to suppress information about Miller, only keep it in proper context. --21st Century Fox 15:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism Section

message: I re-did my edits, now properly sourced with a link to the video on MSNBC.
I do not believe these qualify, in any way, as "POV."
The first edits are to the preceding paragraph; I truncated the arguments of the commentators Miller fought with after the speech. The writing was clunky ("Their points were; X, Y, Z."), but it also had little to do with the article's subject. Reporting that there was general criticism of the speech is encyclopedic; a point-by-point rebuttal is more the area of political sites. Moreover, there's no responses from Miller, so it actually is POV.
The second batch of edits are to the Chris Matthews section itself. I clarified tht it was not Matthews questioning that Miller objected to, but the way Matthews was conducting the interview, by interrupting with questions while Miller was speaking. This is both apparent in the video, and is specifically stated by Miller (at 6:40).
I also added the conclusion of the interview, which can likewise be seen in the video, and which shows that the incident was not just playful bickering but that Miller was, indeed, angry.
I do not understand the charge of POV for any of these edits.
Korossyl (talk) 15:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Chris Matthews

message: DINO?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.2.156 (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: See also

message: I would like to merge A National Party No More: The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat into Zell Miller. The book page was proposed for deletion recently but was disputed. I see that there are quite a few hits for the book title from Google, but the vast majority are from second hand book sellers. There are two book reviews I have seen: , which was only written because of its placement on the NY Times list, and  , which reads like a counter-point op-ed. Most everything else just seems to be a cursory reference to the book as a substitution for "Zell Miller's ideas," which are fully well-known without the influence of this book. There does not seem to be much material (on the Internet, at least) that would allow for expanding this article further. It does not seem to meet the notability standards for books.
The best course of action would be to simply merge the two.  Karma Heretic (talk) 03:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Notwithstanding the comment accompanying the deprod edit, the book does not meet the notability criteria. A merge to the Zell Miller article is a good solution. NoCal100 (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Merger

message: I reverted an edit that changed the sentence "During the 2004 election, Miller gained significant notoriety after he became visibly angry during an interview on Hardball with Chris Matthews" to "During the 2004 election, Miller gained significant fame after he became visibly angry during an interview on Hardball with Chris Matthews", apparently in an attempt to soften criticism of Miller. I am open to the idea that 'notoriety' is not neutral enough, but I am also uncomfortable with 'fame' in this context. Are there reliable sources for public reaction to the incident? Is there another way to report this incident without using either 'notoriety' or 'fame'? -- Donald Albury 10:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "drew widespread attention" mayhaps? 216.50.220.10 (talk) 09:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Fame v. Notoriety

message: Why is there no mention of Zell's Two Strikes, either here in the article on the man who came up with it, or at the article on the slightly less stupid Three strikes law? --Pawyilee (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two strikes law 

message: WHO KNEW?! 66.3.106.3 (talk) 21:58, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point! -- Donald Albury 10:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...after the Korean war ended" 

message: Of course he is! It's former Georgia Senator and Georgia Governor Zell Miller: building that bridge to the 18th century (to quote Jon Stewart)! Joltergeist (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Miller has remained a harsh critic of President Barack Obama." 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I removed a paragraph which was unsourced WP:SYNTH, but it was the only mention of his position on abortion.  It should be included somewhere, and probably sourced better than to Lifenews, but where? Do we need/want a "political positions" section? power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:58, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's now mentioned in the "Senate" section that he was pro-life in the Senate, after being pro-choice as governor. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:08, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abortion 

message: Based on other articles, this possibly should be split into "Published works" (for the ones by him) and "Further reading" (for the ones about him).  Would that be an improvement?  Also, should the ISBNs for the books be listed?  Should it use  in list form? power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:08, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books section 

message: Came to this page and noticed Zell Miller's political affiliation tag on the infobox was amended to include Republican from 2008 until his death. While I know that Miller's political beliefs had moved in a more conservative direction, even co-chairing Newt Gingrich's 2012 campaign for President, I don't recall any public statement by Miller saying he had officially left the Democratic party and didn't see a source on the main page to support that claim. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 02:39, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Party listing on infobox