Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 46

message: In that case how about researching English works? There are many listed in The opera corpus. You'll find very few of them are illustrated. Also many need articles and even biographies (e.g. Edward Loder). Most opera project participants are interested in French, Italian and German works so it would be great if you could take over some of the English ones. -- Kleinzach (talk) 09:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a member of WP:G&S, of course, and have also grabbed a few others - have a look at William Vincent Wallace  for a couple illustrations I found (He's Irish, of course, but they premièred in London). And I have one of the Bohemian Girl that didn't scan well enough, so I was going to grab another photocopy to try with (though I haven't yet). Actually, how about Balfe and/or Wallace as a Composer of the Month? I bet I could get illustrations and reviews of all of Wallace's, and Balfe's from at least Geraldine on. [Why not before that? Because illustrated newspapers only really took off in Britain in the 1840s.] Vanished user talk 11:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes indeed, it might be worth starting articles on some more of Michael Balfe's operas if adequate sources exist. -- Kleinzach (talk) 14:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right! Put 'em up for March, then, and I'll see what I can do =) Vanished user talk 15:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'll list English operas as a candidate for the next composer(s) of the month. I've just been through The opera corpus, and these are the names I've come up with (18th as well as 19th century): Thomas Arne (1710-1778), Charles Dibdin (1745-1814), Stephen Storace (1763-1796), Julius Benedict (1804-1885), Michael Balfe (1808-1870), William Vincent Wallace (1812-1865), Edward Loder (1813-1865), Edward Jakobowski (1858 - 1927) and Alexander Mackenzie (1847-1935). Any others missing articles/biographies? -- Kleinzach (talk) 02:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, no big names and not people already covered like Cellier. If we are going to include 18th century composers, Storace would be essential - 8 red links in The opera corpus and fascinating historical background with Mozart, Sheridan etc. Solomon isn't covered at all in Grove or Oxford - not even a biography - and there are no red links in the opera corpus. On the other hand Loder is in, also Mackenzie - quite substantial articles in fact. -- Kleinzach (talk) 01:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Odd. Mind you, Solomon died fairly young, and is probably considered operetta, which tends to get rather short shrift in opera reference sources. Not sure why MacKenzie is so prominent - he only wrote four operas, and one was an abject failure (though that's probably the librettist's fault - it was F. C. Burnand, and if you had read what I have, you'd know why that's a problem. Reviews of Burnand's works often include phrases like "Burnand seems unaware of his difficulties as a playwright, which seems odd, as he's had so many failures to teach him." - a paraphrase, but not that far off of the review of his "Proof Positive" I have floating around somewhere.  Of course, MacKenzie was a very notable composer outside of opera, and the head of the Royal Academy of Music, so maybe it's like Beethoven (if on a much more minor scale) - shoehorned into the lists of the great opera composers because it'd be unthinkable to leave him out, particularly if the New Grove is based on the Old Grove. Vanished user talk 23:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, well, let's go with your list and see how we get on. I can only promise Balfe and Wallace for my own part, though. Vanished user talk 23:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but let's keep this in perspective - it hasn't even come up for discussion yet! -- Kleinzach (talk) 23:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: English operas

message: It would be the male singers turn (December is 'New Music Divas').  Does anyone have any suggestions? 
One that I thought might be useful (in preparation for February's 'Rossini Month') would be to have 3-5 male role creators in Rossini's operas (or ones that are/were particularly prominent Rossini singers). If there is any interest in this, I could put together some suggestions.
Another possibility, given that January is 'Gounod Month', would be French male singers of the mid to late 19th century. A quick glance at Gounod's operas throws up a lot of red links for the role creators. Best, Voceditenore 18:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it would be better to have a non-historical group this time? For example red-linked, missing contemporary/recent bass-baritones: Falk Struckmann, Günter von Kannen, Jan-Hendrik Rootering, Robert Hale, James Morris + others?  -- Kleinzach 03:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I note they're all prominent in Wagnerian repertoire, which at least gives them a 'theme'. Not particularly my cup of tea, but I'd be happy with that group, provided there's someone here who thinks they might be able to contribute to and/or create some of these articles (perhaps those who are also members of the Wagner Project?) Best, Voceditenore 09:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been looking for non-Wagnerians to add, but they seem less neglected. Anyway my intention was for it to be cross-rep!  -- Kleinzach 09:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are some Italian bass-baritones: Wladimiro Ganzarolli, Sesto Bruscantini, Simone Alberghini, Paolo Montarsolo, Simone Alaimo, Claudio Desderi. -- Kleinzach 04:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Which group are more eminent? Maybe the Italians? Shall we go with them? -- Kleinzach (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's more or less even, apart from Sesto Bruscantini, who was very eminent. However, I'm kind of inclined to go with the Wagner lot myself, if nothing else because the first group of SoM were Italian rep baritones, albeit from a different era. What do you think? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Mmm. The list looks a bit weak with James Morris eliminated, how about adding some missing earlier post-war bass-baritones: Josef Herrmann, Alois Pernestorfer, and Otto Wiener - if they prove to be viable? -- Kleinzach (talk) 06:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Weak in what sense? Not prominent enough or too few? The orginal four look do-able from premlinary research online. Of the 3 further suggestions, there is a some stuff online available for Alois Pernerstorfer (Which is the correct spelling, by the way? Pernerstorfer or Pernestorfer? Pernerstorfer seems more common.). Virtually nothing on the other two, apart from mention in the casts of various recordings. None of the three have articles in the German Wikipedia, so no help there. None of them are in my Oxford Concise.  I don't have access to the complete Grove, so don't know what's in there. Possibly some editors might have recording liner notes with some information about them? Anyhow, tempus fugit. So, I'll put 'em all up and we'll see what happens. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Pernerstorfer in Opera Grove (and in Wikipedia:Music encyclopedia topics/2).  All three are listed in the latter and have short articles in Grove, from which some stubs can be knocked up. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 11:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: January Singer of the Month

message: I've been reading up on the English Wikipedia policy on fair use photos Wikipedia:Non-free content, and it appears that images which may still be in copyright, but are of dead people (and thus with no possibility of a free image being obtained) may still be used under 'fair use', provided a detailed description and 'Fair use rationale' is provided, and the other conditions for fair use are met, e.g. low resolution, previously published outside Wikipedia, figure is of historical importance, etc. Here's an example I just used for a portrait of Francesco Cilea. I'm wondering if the wording on the Opera Project page should be changed to:
:Regrettably we are unable to use photos of living opera singers, composers etc. on a 'fair use' ('fair dealing') basis in their articles. 'Fair use' images may only be acceptable in articles dealing directly with publications, recordings etc. or in articles about subjects who are dead and therefore there is no possibility of providing a free equivalent. When it is necessary, detailed fair use rationales must be provided as well as a suitable copyright tag. Fair use images cannot be used for purely decorative purposes and they must be closely tied to the article text ( a good example is at Concerto delle donne). (Galleries, i.e. collections of fair use material, whether visual or audio, are not permitted under any circumstances.)
Or, should we let sleeping dogs lie? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Well, we can always use PD-US to get pre-1927 (I think) photos, so we're looking at a fairly narrow but highly significant range. Vanished user talk 11:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it's pre-1923. But yes, the images involved are from a fairly narrow but highly significant range. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your new version is fine of course. (Not relevant really but I think this has become so complicated that few people will want to upload historic images anyway.) -- Kleinzach (talk) 12:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I'll wait and see if anyone else objects, and then change the wording on the OP page as per above. Yes, it is a bit complicated to complete all the 'paperwork' for uploading under 'free-use', and possibly a lot of people won't bother. But such images can be for very useful for a lot of articles on prominent deceased singers and composers who did not achieve fame until after the 1923 cut-off and/or whose photographers don't meet the "dead for 70 years" criterion. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use Images Redux

message: I noticed that this link connects to the Royal Danish Theatre and the article states that this is the name of the company. The web site of the theatre though says it houses the The Royal Danish Opera and that this is the name of the company. Anyone know the truth?Nrswanson (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And there's also the Copenhagen Opera House.  I'll make some enquiries. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 18:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The [[Royal Danish Opera]]

message: Alas, a new editor (started editing 3 weeks ago), Mickey_gfss2007, has taken it upon himself to start adding infoboxes to opera singers' articles. I reverted his edits and explained with a link in the edit summary.  But he's reverted them all back. I left a message on his talk page too.  But I suspect he's rather impervious. Take a look at the one for José Carreras. Groan!!! A complete distortion of his career and inaccurate to boot. Plus an invitation for the Catalan nationalists to start edit-warring too. Voceditenore (talk) 22:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't help wondering whether metadata Pigs are back On The Wing.  Note from the Talk page of the above Mickey gfss2007 that we aren't the only people who're complaining about his/her edits! --GuillaumeTell (talk) 01:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just undo all his infoboxes, (in Dennis O'Neill, José Cura, José Carreras‎, Luciano Pavarotti‎ and Plácido Domingo‎). - Jay (talk) 01:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh blimey. They've still got the "Related acts" parameter too. --Folantin (talk) 11:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe we need some help in Dennis O'Neill and its talkpage. Somebody insisted for the infobox to stay there and it has been many edit warring for the past 4 days. Dennis O'Neill is an opera singer, if we let the infobox stays in the article, how about other opera singers? See, if we cant protect one singer's article, how can we protect others someday. What do you guys think? - Jay (talk) 01:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Threats, bad language, insulting edit commentaries - maybe someone is having WP adjustment difficulties? Perhaps we need to keep an eye on this page from time to time? -- Kleinzach (talk) 04:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

text: PS. Maybe we should make Dennis O'Neill the Singer of the Month. (Just joking, at least until there is a calming of the waters, so to speak). By the way, the article's original author assumes I'm a man. A lot people do. Hmmmm.;-) Voceditenore (talk) 10:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infoboxes, Alas!