Talk:Subak

message: I uploaded the articel by RW Young to taekkyon.de: http://www.taekkyon.de/download/Taekyon_JOAMA.pdf
I like this article, but meanwhile I found out that there are some flaws in it. Expecially on page 50, where he writes about Subak. For example, Taekkyon cannot be written in Chinese characters and does not mean "push shoulder". This is a misunderstanding because of the book "Haedong Jukji" from 1921. There, the idu -writing 托肩 is used. 托肩 is pronounced Tak Gyeon and it means "push shoulder", but this does not mean that Taekkyon or Takgyeon can be translated like this. So we should be very careful with Young's article. Also, quoting General Choi Honghi's claimes about Subak is not a good idea since he was not a historical scholar. He was the "inventor" of Tae Kwon Do and one of the responsible persons for all the distortion and confusion about Korean martial arts. --Hyeondo (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Article by Robert W. Young

message: somewhat related to Talk:Taekyon, any objections to moving this article to Subak, to be consistent with the revised romanization of wikipedia korean naming convention? Appleby 20:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, please do not move or merge the two articles. There is a lot to say about both arts and both arts have some connections. However, they are not simply the same. Especially, we know a lot more concret facts about Taekkyon (which was passed down via Song Deok-gi) than about ancient subak (which was not passed down). --Hyeondo (talk) 20:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Move?

message: It has always been my understanding that the subak curriculum consisted of more than just kicking. And that it wasn't until approx. the early time of the Joseon (chosun) dynasty that the art split up in a kicking part (taekkyeon) and a grappling, joint manipulation art (yusool), of which the latter later went the way of the dodo.
This is what Robert Young tells us in an article he wrote for the Asian Journal of MA. (which you will be able do download from http://www.taekkyon.de/html/en/download.html
Kbarends 09:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see.  I read your post.  I will change all articles accordingly.68.148.165.213 05:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait, what is yusool?  I couldn't find it.68.148.165.213 06:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: taekkyeon + yusool = soobak

message: Why does Subak refer to Soobak instead of the other way around? Both in Revised as in McCune the romanization is Subak. Kbarends 17:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If that is true, you may move it at your leisure - I'm pretty sure the guidelines for Korean-related articles mandate the use of Revised romanization. Bradford44 17:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subak vs. Soobak

message: WP:MOS-KO requires that non-loanwords be romanized using Revised Romanization.  Since most people have never heard of subak, and wouldn't know what it is, it is not a loanword (unlike judo and taekwondo, which are loanwords).  Using revised romanization, "수박" should be romanized as "subak". Therefore, the page should be moved to Subak.  I would have done it without making a formal request, but an admin is needed to move it. Bradford44 13:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved. Duja► 08:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: According to Robert W. Young "subak the only fighting art mentioned in Korea's oldest records, was an ancient, comprehensive system with roots in northern China. Evidence supporting the contention that subak originated outside Korea is provided by Chinese records that list shou bo (Chinese pronunciation of subak) as an ancient martial art in the northern part of the country". see History & Development of Tae Kyon Author: Robert Young — Date: Vol. 2 No. 2, 1993.
Historian Stanley E. Henning also mentions that: The earliest archeological evidence of Korean martial practices (not necessarily of pure Korean origin) is found in one of a group of tombs on norhteast China, an area under Koguryo Kingdom, but colonized and under Chinese military control between 108BC and 313 CE... The murals at this site include one scene wich clearly depicst wrestling (Juedi in Chinese and kakjo in Korean) and another with two protagonist rushing at each other which has been interpreted by some as a depiction of boxing (shoubo in Chinese and subak in Korean). Weather or not the latter scene actually depicts boxing as opposed to wrestling is a matter of conjecture, but what is known is that, already by this time, Chinese martial arts had developed to a relatively high degree of sophistication with a clear distinction made between wrestling and boxing practices." see Traditional Korean Martial Arts Author: Stanley Henning — Date: Vol. 9 No. 1, 2000. Professor Meir Shahar points out to entries in the History of the Former Han (209 BC - 24AD) by Ban Gu, refering to the book Shou Bo see Shahar, Meir, The Shaolin Monastery, History Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts, Hawaii University Press. According to Chinese historian Ma Mingda, Shou Bo was a term used to describe boxing see Ma Mingda 说剑丛稿 /Shuo jian cong gao, Beijing Shi : Zhonghua shu ju, 2007. The above examples precede the Korean sources
--Tianshanwarrior 21:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: All this is speculation. We will probably never know what exactly Subak or Shoubo was 2000 years ago, because, up to my knowledge, there are simply not enough sources. By the way, both the articles of Henning and R.W. Young contain significant mistakes. --Hyeondo (talk) 22:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Article is incomplete

message: ...or what?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.164.10 (talk) 09:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Subak, Subakgi or Yusul is either a specific ancient Korean martial art." 

message: Gyuksul's earlier era (boxing-like rule) is a proof that Subak existed in North Korea even in the modern era. It's a proof that Subak was mixed with Sibak (Nalparam) & Gwonbub (300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub) to become today's Gyuksul. As for South Korean Yetbub, it's Sibak (Baksi, Nanjangbaksi) which evolved from Subak due to Gwonbub influence. Gwonbub was created from Subak by copying Kung Fu Taizu 32 Palm Way.  
North Korean Gyuksul, from Subak or Gwonbub or Sibak? Taekwondo is a mix of Chosun-Gwonbub (started 300 years ago by Korean Muyedobotongji textbook) gym & Karate gyms. However, Korea has had many other Fight Games, particularly street fighting games called Nalparam, Taekyun-Yetbub, Flag Fight (Gitssaum), Pyunssaum (side-fight), Sibak (side-fight). In medieval Jaemulbo book, Sibak was recorded to be also Taekyun, which would mean also being included in Taekyun. Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi, which were quite different from Taekyun. (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)
Korea had many street fighting games like this Gitssaum picture & written fist fighting description. I don't think there was any ban on Korean martial art by Japan. They probably just banned "unlawful" gathering. https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg
Here's also something about street fighting contest in Korea 100 years ago. Prizefighting. https://i.imgur.com/i03RApC.png
For the record, Byungin Yoon who taught Gwonbub in South Korea was involved in Gyuksul development in North Korea.
North Korea has a fight game called Kyuksul. According to historical records referred by Mookas martial art magazine, "the earlier contests were about the same as boxing, but in 1987's 7th contest, it evolved to the level of kickboxing." Subak had punch. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnvIcdeXsAAQ2Ae.jpg
So, it says that Gyuksul was similar to boxing in the earlier era but it wasn't boxing. The only Fight Game or martial art that resembles such trait in Korea is Subak. That would mean Gyuksul was originally from Subak. In the new Gyuksul rules & techniques, Gyuksul also resembles Sibak (Korean street fighting games) & Gwonbub (Muyedobotongji).
https://i.imgur.com/aGQ9L8O.png
https://i.imgur.com/z7RaPQ2.png
https://i.imgur.com/Bs0T0Ij.png
Those 3 pictures are Gyuksul moves. They resemble Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbub moves, except that Gwonbub's wild swing with shoulder-push uses vertical fist while Gyuksul uses horizontal fist. Those 3 pictures resemble the first 2 Gwonbub pictures in the first line in this picture. https://i.imgur.com/LwjGIti.png
So, in conclusion, North Korean Gyuksul started from Subak. Then it evolved to be like Sibak & Gwonbub.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 21:12, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Korean Gyuksul/Kyuksul & South Korean Taekyun Yetbub 

message: Arc swing hits front or side by choice; some people claim that swing has to hit cheek only. That's stupid. There are straight slaps in sports (cause sports can create, add techniques) & also in everyday-life (spanking, swatting). Swing slap also hits front by choice.
Because swing has both the frontal & lateral vectors, swing can hit either front or side (or even halfway frontal in 45 degrees like cheeks or jaws) by choice. For example, some people get hung up on swing-slap hitting front. They claim swing trajectory is banana. Consider half a banana with its tip hitting front & middle. (Whether punch or slap, a swing starts at the side of the body; it doesn't start at the middle of the body, which is why it ends at the middle & front of the body.) Also, curve & circle are not the same; curve doesn't have to be consistent in angle-change. Curve's angle change can be different at a different point of curve, flatter or curvier. There's no such thing as flailing in swing. That's not how a swing is done. Jack Dempsey is a reputable source for arc swing hitting front.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXUqNqgWwAAO2pP.png 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXUpdySWEAAmqLe.png 
The swing punching motion starts at Figure 22A (elbow bent, fist loaded at the side of the body), then the swing punching motion ends at Figure 23B (arm fully extended, fist punching front although swing can hit side by choice too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_(boxing)
That's how a swing is done. It hits front unlike hook. Also, there are straight slaps. Also, Subak & Taekkyeon both had straight slaps, frontal swing slaps, punches. Also, the original Breaking/Tameshiwari had nothing to do with striking martial art but only with power circus, power magic show, power performance art. Even powerful strikes were created by trial & error with common sense strikes. After powerful strikes were created, they were taught without starting over at every generation of students. Breaking was practiced by practicing Breaking directly, not by practicing martial art. Breaking/Tameshiwari is not from martial art even when it is used (or can be used) on animals or humans.
Like I said, some people claim that Subak didn't have frontal slap & punch. Some people claim Taekkyeon (Yetbub, Sibak) didn't have frontal slap & punch. Some people claim that Breaking/Tameshiwari is from Japan. Some people claim that Mas Oyama didn't introduce Korean hand strike to Japanese Tameshiwari (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed, power, mass for frontal hand strike). Some people claim Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari isn't from Korean power circus. Some people claim Korean didn't have street fighting games other than regular Taekkyeon. Some people claim that Breaking/Tameshiwari is from martial art rather than power circus, power magic. There are lots of different kinds of people with such nonsense. So, I'm trying to spread facts to correct such. These topics I cover have nothing directly to do with Taekwondo. Taekwondo is just 1 topic. I am covering many topics irrelevant to Taekwondo directly. These topics are related to Taekwondo. It's just that these topics I cover have no relation to Taekwondo having lineage to Karate & Gwonbeop. These topics I cover have nothing to do with that side of Taekwondo.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 15:06, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Arc swing hits front or side by choice; some people claim that swing has to hit cheek only