Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 4

message: Regarding Matthew, if you make that distinction, you should have no problems venerating the cross, icons, the saints, etc. The distinction you make between "worship" and "obeisance" is essentially the same distinction Orthodox and Catholics make between "worship" and "veneration" (which often includes obeisances". As for what these passages mean, we can either turn to the Greek, or look at how they have been read and understood by the Church through the centuries. Matthew 28:9-20 gives two more examples of Jesus' followers worshipping him after his resurrection, along with the command baptize his followers "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Not in the name of the Father only, much less in the name of "Jehovah." Wesley \
:A "name" can mean something other than a personal name. When, in English, we say, "in the name of the law," or "in the name of common sense," we have no reference to a person as such. By "name" in these expressions we mean 'what the law stands for or its authority' and 'what common sense represents or calls for.' The Greek term for "name" (onoma) also can have this sense. Thus, while some translations (KJ, AS) follow the Greek text at Matthew 10:41 literally and say that the one that "receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man's reward," more modern translations say, "receives a prophet because he is a prophet" and "receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man," or similar. (RS, AT, JB, NW) Thus, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament (1930, Vol. I, p. 245) says on Matthew 28:19: "The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority." 
:Hense, Jehovah's Witnesses think that baptism "in the name of the Father" means to recognize our heavenly Father (Jehovah)'s office and authority, and that the baptism "in the name of the Son" means to recognize Jesus' office and authority as God's only-begotten Son. (1 John 4:9), and that the baptism " in the name of the holy spirit" means to recognize that the holy spirit is Jehovah's active force, used in various ways in harmony with his purpose. (Genesis 1:2; 2 Samuel 23:1, 2; 2 Peter 1:21) Rantaro 04:03, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you were to apply your interpretation of "in the name of..." consistently, you would certainly say that "in the name of the Father" means to recognize the Father's office and authority, "in the name of the Son" means to recognize the Son's office and authority, and "to recognize the Holy Spirit" means to recognize the Holy Spirit's office and authority. You become internally inconsistent with regard to the Holy Spirit. Wesley 04:09, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: To recognize the holy spirit's office and authority doesn't mean to think that holy spirit is God. It's the same that to recognize the Son's office and authority doesn't mean to think the Son is God. This scripture means that the holy spirit helps those who qualify baptism to understand "the deep things of God", to carry on the Kingdom-preaching work, and to display the spirit's fruitage of "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control." - 1 Corinthians 2:10; Galatians 5:22, 23; Joel 2:28, 29. Rantaro 04:16, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matt.28:9-20 

message: Colossians passage, the NKJV renders it "firstborn over all creation" rather than "firstborn of every creature". He is a begotten Son, but eternally begotten, begotten from eternity outside of Time, before Time began. This better fits with both the rest of Colossians 1 and John 1:3.
: In what sense is Jesus Christ "the first-born of all creation"? (1) Trinitarians say that "first-born" here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of "firstborn," it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah's family of sons. (2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression "the firstborn of" occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies-the firstborn is part of the group. "The firstborn of Israel" is one of the sons of Israel; "the firstborn of Pharaoh" is one of Pharaoh's family; "the firstborn of beast" are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof? (3) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says "in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him"? The Greek word here rendered "all things" is 'panta', an inflected form of 'pas'. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this "all...other"; JB reads "any other"; NE says "anyone else." (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to 'panta' at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, "by means of him all other things were created...All other things have been created through him and for him." Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God. Rantaro 05:18, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Col. 1:15 

message: I wonder, do Muslims believe that Jesus is Christ? I know they believe in him as a great prophet, so it wouldn't surprise me if they believe Jesus was also the Christ, anointed by God. If so, then it clearly is not a valid test for determining Christianity. Honestly, worshipping Jesus as God is pretty fundamental. This is based on the dominant, historical understanding of Christianity down through the centuries, which ought to carry some objective weight even in an encyclopedia.
:"I wonder, do Muslims believe that Jesus is Christ?"
-- No. They beleive he was no more than a prophet like Moses. george m
:: For some definition of "no more than a prophet", :-P. Prophets apparently command some amount of respect in Islam. Kim Bruning 17:40, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Worshipping Jesus as God is only fundamental for trinitarians. It isn't related to Christianity definition. Jesus didn't command to worship him. He ordered only to worship his Father, not him.(Matt.4:10) Obviously, he quoted from Deutronomy 5:9; 6:13; 10:20 in Matt.4:10. Deuteronomy's God is Jehovah, not Jesus. He repeated it in Matt.22:37, quoted from Deutronomy 6:5; 10:12. If Jesus was Almighty God or God the Father, he didn't need to pray alone (Matt. 14:23), to be strengthened by his angel (Luke 22:43), and to be resurrected by the other (Matt.28:7). And If so, I can't understand why the Son Jesus didn't know the great tribution's day and time (Matt.24:36), and why his Apostles called him as God's holy servant (Acts 4:30). Rantaro 06:51, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Worshipping Jesus as God fundamental? 

message: No evidence that many children have died due to JW doctrine? How about the May 22, 1994 Awake! magazine showing photos of 26 children, with the caption: "Youths Who Put God First." 
Inside the magazine glorifies Witness children who died supporting WTS policy...that's not evidence enough?
:This magazine insist that many children have died in the PAST (or Biblical age), not now. Rantaro 06:51, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children who died