Talk:Epic Aircraft

message: *It may be more standard to name this section "Products". I also think it could make sense for this section to precede "History".
*Using existing ref name, update the section text from
:*LT is a 6-place kit-built turbo-prop airplane.
:*Victory was a proposed single-engine jet project, with only a prototype completed. The company has not pursued development.
:*E1000 is a type certified six-place turbo-prop airplane.
:*Escape was a proposed 92% scaled version of the Epic LT, with 4-5 seats. The company has not pursued development.
:*Elite was an proposed twin-engine jet project, initially intended as a kit aircraft, which the company had planned to certify later. It was to utilize an LT fuselage with cosmetic and structural changes. Only a prototype has been completed. The company has not pursued development.
:to
:*The LT is a 6-place kit-built turbo-prop airplane, later replaced by the E1000.
:*The Victory was a proposed single-engine jet project in 2007.
:*The E1000 is a type certified six-place turbo-prop airplane. It is the type-certified, manufactured version of the Epic LT.
:*The Escape was a proposed 92% scaled version of the Epic LT in 2007, with 4 to 6 seats.
:*The Elite was a proposed twin-engine jet project, initially intended as a kit aircraft in 2008.
:*The E1000 GX is a type certified single turbo-prop airplane based on the E1000. The E1000 GX replaced the E1000 as the only product Epic Aircraft is manufacturing.
Thanks for your time or feedback! Mary Gaulke (talk) 16:16, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Aircraft

message: Hi again! Reposting the remaining open items here for clarity, and collapsing the above.
====Lead====
* Update the title parameter of the infobox to "Epic Aircraft, LLC", the company's legal name. I believe the first sentence of the lead should also include the legal name, per MOS:FIRST.
* In the second sentence, update "Epic E1000" to "Epic E1000 GX", per article body updates below.
====History====
* Move the E1000 image to the bottom, since it's the most recent aircraft.
*I think it might make sense to organize this section a bit more thematically, rather than as a strict chronology with subsections for each year. For instance, the first section could be "2004–2009: Early years", the second could be "Reorganization and acquisition by Engineering LLC", and the third could be "2015–present: E1000 era".
* Under "2009", update:
::The case went to court in 2013 and ended "without an award of costs, disbursements or attorney’s fees to any party".Claire Withycombe. "Former Epic CEO pleads not guilty to federal fraud, laundering charges" The Bulletin (Bend), 8 April 2015.
:to
::The case was dismissed in 2013 and ended "without an award of costs, disbursements or attorney’s fees to any party".
:Per the source: "A federal lawsuit filed against Epic Air in 2009 was dismissed in 2013, without an award of costs, disbursements or attorney’s fees to any party, federal court records show."
* Also in the "2009" subsection, these three paragraphs seem WP:UNDUE in detail, given that they're citing only one secondary source and four primary sources:
::Several additional lawsuits were filed against Epic. These included "serious allegations about the conduct of company principals". In a sworn statement Chief Financial Officer David Clark said that Epic owed its customer builders an estimated US$15 million for parts and that the company had no money to pay those debts. Also in his sworn statement Clark alleged many financial irregularities and that company financial reports and practices "did not comply with generally accepted accounting practices". Other sworn statements by Clark and General Manager David Hice alleged that the company was a "chaotic financial environment over which CEO Rick Schrameck ruled exclusively". Hice further alleged many financial irregularities, including that the company missed its payroll in July 2004 and was only able to pay its staff using customer aircraft deposits from sales at AirVenture that same month. Hice also alleged that "On June 16th, 2009 I was terminated after Rick Schrameck physically attacked me."
	
::In September 2009 CEO Rick Schrameck was removed by the board of directors from any "managerial or supervisory capacity" with Epic parent company Aircraft Investor Resources, and the company voluntarily entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy, seeking to reorganize, find investors and continue kitplane production on a reduced scale.
::As a result of the bankruptcy filing customers with aircraft under construction at the company facility were permitted to remove their aircraft and parts.
:I propose rewriting the above to stick to what's covered in the AVWeb source, as well as a few other independent sources I dug up:
::In September 2009 CEO Schrameck was removed by the board of directors from any "managerial or supervisory capacity" with Epic parent company Aircraft Investor Resources, and the company entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy. 
::Epic LT owner Doug King filed a motion requesting that the bankruptcy proceedings be moved from Nevada to Bend. That filing included a sworn statement by Chief Financial Officer David Clark, saying that Epic owed its customer builders an estimated US$15 million for parts and that the company had no money to pay those debts.
* Given that 2009 marked the end of Schrameck's leadership of Epic, I propose moving the content about him in the 2015 and 2018 sections after the first paragraph above (immediately following "...and the company entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy.") (using the "Withycombe" refClaire Withycombe. "Former Epic CEO pleads not guilty to federal fraud, laundering charges" The Bulletin (Bend), 8 April 2015. already in use in the article). I also tightened up the copy a bit (very open to feedback on this) and fixed a few "Schramek" misspellings:
::Due to his actions at Epic, Schrameck was arrested for fraud in March 2015. On 27 March 2015, he pleaded not guilty in US District Court to eight counts of wire fraud, four counts of mail fraud and six counts of money laundering regarding his dealings with Epic and its customers. The case alleged that Schrameck deliberately defrauded customers of more than US$14 million. In April 2018, Schrameck pleaded "guilty" to one count of wire fraud. The Department of Justice, US Attorney's Office, District of Oregon stated, "Schrameck gave customers Airframe Purchase Agreements and Aircraft Completion Assistance Agreements that misrepresented how the customers’ funds were being used. Without his customers’ knowledge, Schrameck used the funds for other projects, to complete existing Epic LT aircraft, and to support his own lavish lifestyle."
* I'm not sure why "LT Builders Group" is italicized, so we may want to remove the italics.
*In "2012", add ref and revise:
::Filev's company, Engineering LLC
:to
::Engineering LLC,
* In "2013", delete:
::Filev had his own, personal Epic LT delivered from Bend, Oregon, to Moscow by King in August 2013, delivering it for Filev's 50th birthday.
:This doesn't really feel notable or germane to the article, in my opinion.
* In "2014", delete:
::By 2014 the company was engaged in certification of the Epic E1000 and had purchased the former Cessna  facility in Bend, Oregon that had once produced the Columbia Aircraft line.
:This is cited only to a press release, and it's redundant of the information under "2012" (when the Bend purchase was finalized).
*Add:
::In 2016, Epic held the "Epic Odyssey World Tour", in which six Epic LTs circumnavigated the world in 21 days, stopping in 21 cities after departing from Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
* In "2018", delete
::The company had intended to outsource production of some composite material parts, but encountered issues with quality, meeting specification and timeliness or deliveries. As a result, they decided to produce all 587 composite parts for the E1000 in-house.
:This is more detail than is notable, in my opinion.
*It may make sense to move the information about the 2019 crash from this article into Epic LT (where it's already partially covered). From what I can tell, crashes and incidents are usually part of the articles for individual planes, but not their manufacturers (cf. Cirrus Aircraft vs. Cirrus SR22, Cessna vs. Cessna Citation Excel).
*Also in "2019", update
::After certification the company indicated that it intends to ramp up production to one aircraft every three weeks by the second half of 2020 and earn its production certificate, so each individual aircraft will not require FAA inspection prior to delivery. This will be followed by one aircraft every two weeks by the first half of 2021 and work towards one aircraft a week. The goal is to ultimately produce 50 aircraft per year.
:to
::After certification the company indicated that it intends to ramp up production to one aircraft every three weeks by the second half of 2020, then one aircraft every two weeks by the first half of 2021, and ultimately produce 50 aircraft per year.
:for conciseness/clarity, using "George" ref name already in use in article.
* In "2020", update
::The first two E1000s were delivered to customers at the end of May 2020.
:to
::The company announced in May 2020 that the first two E1000s had been delivered to customers.
:(The first delivery actually occurred a bit earlier, but this isn't detailed in the source.)
====Aircraft====
* It may be more standard to name this section "Products". I also think it could make sense for this section to precede "History".
* Using existing ref name, update the section text from
:*LT is a 6-place kit-built turbo-prop airplane.
:*Victory was a proposed single-engine jet project, with only a prototype completed. The company has not pursued development.
:*E1000 is a type certified six-place turbo-prop airplane.
:*Escape was a proposed 92% scaled version of the Epic LT, with 4-5 seats. The company has not pursued development.
:*Elite was an proposed twin-engine jet project, initially intended as a kit aircraft, which the company had planned to certify later. It was to utilize an LT fuselage with cosmetic and structural changes. Only a prototype has been completed. The company has not pursued development.
:to
:*The LT is a 6-place kit-built turbo-prop airplane, later replaced by the E1000.
:*The Victory was a proposed single-engine jet project in 2007.
:*The E1000 is a type certified six-place turbo-prop airplane. It is the type-certified, manufactured version of the Epic LT.
:*The Escape was a proposed 92% scaled version of the Epic LT in 2007, with 4 to 6 seats.
:*The Elite was a proposed twin-engine jet project, initially intended as a kit aircraft in 2008.
:*The E1000 GX is a type certified single turbo-prop airplane based on the E1000. The E1000 GX replaced the E1000 as the only product Epic Aircraft is manufacturing.
Thanks for your help and time. Mary Gaulke (talk) 00:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , thank you for following the COI edit process. I believe I've implemented all of your requests except for moving the photoI'll sign off on you re-arranging them yourself. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks so much for your help! Just wanted to chase this item:  I think this could make the History section a lot more reader-friendly – what do you think? Thanks again. Mary Gaulke (talk) 02:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , sure, that seems uncontroversial enough. Would you prefer that the year headings be preserved and pushed down a heading level (so History -> Early years -> 2004), or remove the year headings and consolidate the contents (so everything from 2004-2009 would be under the Early years heading but without further year headings)? GeneralNotability (talk) 23:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it makes sense for the descriptive titles to replace the year headings. In the mockup, I also noted year ranges as part of the headings. Let me know what you think! Mary Gaulke (talk) 18:59, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , okay, I'll go with the mockup (though I might drop the year ranges - I feel like most articles don't do that). GeneralNotability (talk) 00:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Remaining open requests

message: * It may be more standard to name this section "Products". I also think it could make sense for this section to precede "History".
* Using existing ref name, update the section text from
:*LT is a 6-place kit-built turbo-prop airplane.
:*Victory was a proposed single-engine jet project, with only a prototype completed. The company has not pursued development.
:*E1000 is a type certified six-place turbo-prop airplane.
:*Escape was a proposed 92% scaled version of the Epic LT, with 4-5 seats. The company has not pursued development.
:*Elite was an proposed twin-engine jet project, initially intended as a kit aircraft, which the company had planned to certify later. It was to utilize an LT fuselage with cosmetic and structural changes. Only a prototype has been completed. The company has not pursued development.
:to
:*The LT is a 6-place kit-built turbo-prop airplane, later replaced by the E1000.
:*The Victory was a proposed single-engine jet project in 2007.
:*The E1000 is a type certified six-place turbo-prop airplane. It is the type-certified, manufactured version of the Epic LT.
:*The Escape was a proposed 92% scaled version of the Epic LT in 2007, with 4 to 6 seats.
:*The Elite was a proposed twin-engine jet project, initially intended as a kit aircraft in 2008.
:*The E1000 GX is a type certified single turbo-prop airplane based on the E1000. The E1000 GX replaced the E1000 as the only product Epic Aircraft is manufacturing.
Thanks for your help and time. Mary Gaulke (talk) 00:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , thank you for following the COI edit process. I believe I've implemented all of your requests except for moving the photoI'll sign off on you re-arranging them yourself. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks so much for your help! Just wanted to chase this item:  I think this could make the History section a lot more reader-friendly – what do you think? Thanks again. Mary Gaulke (talk) 02:11, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , sure, that seems uncontroversial enough. Would you prefer that the year headings be preserved and pushed down a heading level (so History -> Early years -> 2004), or remove the year headings and consolidate the contents (so everything from 2004-2009 would be under the Early years heading but without further year headings)? GeneralNotability (talk) 23:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it makes sense for the descriptive titles to replace the year headings. In the mockup, I also noted year ranges as part of the headings. Let me know what you think! Mary Gaulke (talk) 18:59, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , okay, I'll go with the mockup (though I might drop the year ranges - I feel like most articles don't do that). GeneralNotability (talk) 00:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Aircraft