Talk:Kigo

message: ::Revth: I appreciate your efforts in translating the Japanese article. It gives me a good start to work with. 
::From the resources that I have, both haiku and senryu came from haikai no renga, or the more humerous, playful version of renga. The precedents for haiku are the hokku or opening verse of the renga, and the precendents for the senryu were the often more human interior verses of the renga. What became senryu actually started during Basho's lifetime as a parlor game involving maekutsuke or capping verses. It wasn't until the 1800's when this game became more popular and Karai Senryu was the most popular editor/selector (marker or tenja) of the winning verses, that they were called senryu.
::I don't have kyoku in any of my references, but there I do have 'kyōka', which were the humerous counterpart to waka, and have been around since the time of the Manyoshu. 'Hyakushu Kyōka' (Comic Verses on a Hundred Kinds of Liquor) was complied in the fourteenth century.
::There have been haiku with seasonless topic words since Basho (although very, very few), and kigo can easily be found in senryu (Ueda's Light 'Verse From the Floating World' has an entire chapter of seasonal senryu). What used to be a more reliable marker is that haiku were composed almost exclusively by aristocrats and monks, and senryu were composed by tradesmen and merchants. The best divider today between the two is probably overall tone and subject matter. If it humorous or mostly about humans and especially human nature, it is probably a senryu. If it is mostly about the seasons or has a subdued tone, then it is probably a haiku.
::Just being about humans or social issues doesn't preclude a poem from being haiku. I have been told that roughly 40% of the topics in one of the major Japanese saijiki involved humans, including all of the different holidays, like the Bon Festival, to topics like sun-bathing, New Year's resolutions, mushroom gathering, beach-coming, etc. gK 15:21, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Responses

message: It is an interesting topic, and necessary but the first paragraph seems to be confused for me a bit.
:For classic pre-Meiji era haiku (before 1868), almost all haiku had a kigo. For example, Japanese experts have classified only about 10 of Matsuo Bashō's (1644-1694) haiku in the miscellaneous (zō) category (out of about one thousand haiku). Note, however, that most of the pre-Meiji poets such as Bashō were primarily haikai no renga poets (that is, they composed linked verse with other poets), so they wrote plenty of miscellaneous and love stanzas for the interior lines of a renga. Usually about half the stanzas in a renga do not reference a season. A little later Kobayashi Issa (1763-1828) (who wrote mostly haiku and not renga) wrote 109 haiku without season words (out of a total of roughly 20,000 haiku).
There might be a confusion; as far as I know
*Haiku today is a developed form of hokku, the first line (or stanza) of a series of "haikai no renga".
*And it must be seasonal - though Basho claimed sometimes it could be non-seasonal.
*It is true, not all stanzas of haikai no renga should have a kigo, but it is a different topic if hokku, the first line should have a kigo.
And I think the quotation the above make a confusion on those points. --Aphaea* 02:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry you seem to miss my point. Modern Haiku is not my topic. I meant the first stanza of Renku (Hokku) from which haiku would develop and other 7-5-7 stanzas were functioning differently, so usually we don't think the latter under the name of haiku and never hokku. And the argument in the middle Edo period and the modern dispute of Mukigo haiku (haiku without kigo) are irrelevant to each other, as far as I know. Even Basho made some hokku without kigo and he stated they were legitimate hokkus but those works are different from parts of renga which hasn't been estimated as an individual work. --Aphaea* 22:05, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Must have a kigo or not 

message: A question: I refered some saijiki I have and they are written in Japanese. Should I list them also in the References section or leave those non-English books? --Aphaea* 09:00, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My personal opinion is that since you used the Japanese saijiki as references, then you should include them in the Reference section of the article. Most of your additions I have also found mentioned in Higginson's "Haiku World", but not all of them. BTW: Higginson's book is the ONLY international saijiki ever published, and until a recent book on season words in the United Kingdom, the only English-language saijiki ever published (as far as I know). Kigo are mentioned in most English-language books on haiku, but it is rarely more than a chapter's worth. BlankVerse ∅  09:47, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you add an English-language translation for the title of the Japanese saijiki? BlankVerse ∅  11:04, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I would liked to, but was not sure how I could avoid misunderstanding there was its translation. The Title meaning "Introductory Saijiki", editor is "Ono Rinka" (O with macron). --Aphaea* 12:49, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: We should link to Japanese calendar somewhere — maybe instead of Chinese calendar?
:Strongly recommended. Without it, it is hard to understand saijiki section. And some of Japanese calendar content, like 24sekki should be expanded or just giving a clear link to Chinese calendar#Jieqi. --Aphaea* 00:03, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calendar 

message: I just checked at Google. Like many Wikipedia articles, this article is the first listing at Google when you search for "Kigo" (see (). BlankVerse ∅ 03:36, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Google 

message: I have put in a request at Wikipedia:Peer Review as the next step before nominating this article as a Wikipedia:Featured article candidates. BlankVerse ∅ 14:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To see what people have been writting at Peer review, you can visit the Kigo subpage at Wikipedia:Peer review/Kigo/archive1. BlankVerse ∅  10:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer Review Requested

message: Here are a couple more photos to consider.
Commons has a page on lotus. My photo (right) is now a Featured Picture on Commons (a tighter vertical crop is also available) and several other excellent pictures by other photographers are available. 
Also, crape myrtle in front of the ancient pagoda at Toji, a temple in Kyoto.
Fg2 12:01, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
A couple of shots of Kinkaku in the snow at Commons:Kyoto#Kinkaku-ji temple 金閣寺. Fg2 21:58, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
And how about sounds like :Image:Japanese nightingale note05.ogg (songs of male Japanese bush warbler - "uguisu" in spring)
:I oppose to include "New Year fireworks" photo on "Saijiki" section, because fireworks itself is a kigo of autumn (early autumn) and Japanese has generally no habits of New Year fireworks. If we have this photo, it should appear on the "International Kigo" section, not strongly-Japan oriented Saijiki section. It has probably mislead our readers. --Larus.r 06:50, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: The "Japanese haiku: a topical dictionary" is part of the Japanese Text Initiative of the University of Virginia Library. They have a moderately-sized kiyose (list of kigo), with a smaller number of saijiki-like entries with example haiku, photographs, and even an occasional sound sample. For the New Years subsection of the Common Kigo section, I've added asterisks (*) after the Japanese name for the kigo that is an external link to the topical dictionary entry. I would like to have some feedback on this addition to the article. Is it worth continueing and adding to all the kigo for which the topical dictionary has larger entries? BlankVerse ∅ 08:08, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps no, but it is good to provide a sketchy overview. It is neat for lazy readers like me to get a rough grasp from one webpage. But now we can concenrate and prune many of redundancy from the section of "Saijiki". --Larus.r 21:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Something new

message: In preparation for trimming down some of the kigo that are in the Common Japanese Kigo section of the Kigo article, I've created a new article, List of kigo. For the new article, I have divided each month into the usual categories (The Year, The Heavens, etc.). I also integrated into the List of Kigo all of the kigo that were in the Saijiki and Non-Japanese Kigo sections of the Kigo article. For many, but not all categories, I have also alphabetized the kigo within the category, and will try to finish that within the next day or two. Some of the photos will also need to be moved around to make things look a little less cluttered (at least when I view the page at 800x600).
Also, I have reworked the To-do list on this Talk page, so if you click the Purge link, you will see the ambitious new To-do list. BlankVerse ∅ 10:05, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: List of kigo

message: Though I was the one who began to add every month to the list of kigo, I propose to trim most of month name from the current list. It seems to me enough 
*mention "every season and month name can serve as kigo" at the "spring" section.
*provide examples there
*leave the significant kigo including "ikuharu" & "sangatsujin" (Passing Spring & End of March) and "ikuaki" & "kugatsujin" (Passing Autumn & End of September).
So we can trim three of four similar redundant entries.. --Aphaea* 19:58, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimming 

message: The Kigo article has been submitted for review as a Good Article at Wikipedia:Good article candidates#Media and the arts (literature, media, music, film, games)/ Although the article is currently just under the 32KB requirement [at 31.6 kB (4816 words)], I still listed it as a long article. BlankVerse 10:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I passed it. mrholybrain 22:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the Kigo article a "Good Article"? 

message: I, as a native japanese, wonder what the word means. Perhaps, this is misunderstanding or mis-spelling. On what reference this word can be find? --124.25.23.226 14:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I got it. It is "momiji katsu chiru", means some leaves turning color, some falling. --Isorhiza 14:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  momoko katsu chiru ? 

message: A large number of the external links listed under 'References' appear to be in direct conflict with WP:EL which frowns on links to Yahoo! groups and blogs. Yet the information to be found in Gabi Greve's WKD (to which most of those links refer) is both reliable and useful. Leave them in in defiance of stated WP policy?--Yumegusa (talk) 01:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Due to lack of response, I'll leave status quo--Yumegusa (talk) 14:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  References/ External Links 

message: In the Kigo and seasons section there appears the sentence: "A little later in the year pumpkins are also associated with the pumpkin pies that are often part of the US Thanksgiving Day dinner along with turkey and cranberries": I wonder why, in an account of something specifically Japanese. One could pepper the article with analogues in other cultures across the world, but it is not clear to me how this would help clarify understanding of the use of kigo in Japanese poetry. Certainly I cannot see any justification for singling out one non-Japanese culture for comparison. Is there any objection to removing this sentence?
JamesBWatson (talk) 13:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. There's a whole lot more editing needs done here too though.--Yumegusa (talk) 14:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kigo and seasons in the United States of America 

message: I undid the following addition: "However, to an island nation with a massive population, farming is a vital industry and even the smallest increase in production is heavily researched. As any grower or agriculturer can attest, the phases and characteristics of the moon are of increased importance during both the harvest and seeding seasons. It is widely known, yet still falls under the realm of pseudoscience, that seed germination is sped up by a notable margin if sowing is done in cooperation with phases of the moon. Depending upon the type of crop the influence of the moon can strengthen the root system, influence yield, or effect flowering and all this diverse alteration of crop growth is contingent on mere hours."
There are several reasons:
* The only citation given is not sufficient to support the claims. Some random blog post by a layperson is not sufficient evidence to claim the moon somehow mysteriously affects agriculture through some undescribed mechanism that isn't understood by anyone.
* Claims about what "any grower or agriculturer can attest" are too strongly worded. At best, a claim can be made about "Most farmers surveyed believe ..." if such a survey had been done, and that result was found, and a citation given for that survey.
* The claim that "It is widely known, yet still falls under the realm of pseudoscience" is self-contradictory. If it is pseudoscience, then it is not *known*. At the very most, it's possible that it's widely *believed*, but even that claim would need evidence to support it before it should be added to Wikipedia.
--Daniel (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims of the moon's influence on agriculture