Talk:Menachem Begin/Archive 1

message: I have made some changes to this article in the middle section, mostly relating to the Irgun and Stern Gang, and Begin's period as opposition leader.  I felt that these paragraphs were generally very messy, not in chronological order, and in places inaccurate and clearly biased.  In editing I have tried to stick to the facts, put them into some sort of order, and added a bit of additional information for interest and clarification.--steveajg 16:00, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The war in Lebanon cannot be interpretted, even by its most devoted proponents in Israel, as a war of survival.  For this reason, the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanise the Palestinians.  Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as 'beasts walking on two legs'.  Palestinians have often been called 'bugs' while their refugee camps in Lebanon are referred to as 'tourist camps'.  In order to rationalise the bombing of civilian populations, Begin emotively declared: 'If Hitler was sitting in a house with 20 other people, would it be correct to blow up the house?'
I will leave it for others to argue over whether any of this should be in the article. 
--Zero 09:27, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: It looks like speculative trivia in either case. Jayjg (talk) 15:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Speculative? No. Trivia? Prehaps; that is a matter of opinion. To my knowledge it is undisputed that  al-Qaeda (or some parts of it: it is such an amourphous organization) use Menachem Begins book The Revolt as a "textbook". Trivia? Well, the content of that al-Qaeda computer was taken seriously enough to raise the security level in the US; is that also trivia? If not, why should we not note what/who inspires/teach them? Regards, Huldra 19:15, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To claim that al-Qaeda is substantively influenced by Begin's book, as opposed to the many other sources that in fact strongly influence them (e.g the Qur'an), is both trivia, and a POV-pushing attempt to create an equivalence between Begin and al-Qaeda. Jayjg (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

text: --And who has claimed "substantively influenced"? Please quote your sources. Thanks. --Actually, fundamentally the issue is this: I believe you have to differentiate between goals/targets of an organization/group, and the methods/strategies it employs to achieve these goals/targets. The influence/"teachers" in the two cases might, of course, be very, very different. But both are relevant, IMO.The last part of your statement is quite interesting: ("a POV-pushing attempt to create an equivalence between Begin and al-Qaeda") If I should apply the same logic with your statement, then you have just "attempted" to "create an equivalence" between the  Qur'an and  al-Qaeda? Have you not? Regards, Huldra 22:27, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To state that a fundamentalist Islamist group like al-Qaeda is primarily influenced by its understanding of the Qur'an is a truism; they would insist on it themselves.  And if they haven't been substantively influenced by Begin's book, but it was merely found on a computer somewhere, then it is trivia. Jayjg (talk) 23:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I wish people would stop arguing against things which nobody has claimed, while avoiding answering questions which have been raised. It´s an ancient tactics, but that doesn´t make it more pretty. People going through this discussion can see for themselves.   A couple of points here: there is a level between "substantial influence" and "trivia", IMO. And to say that the quote from "the Atlantic" (about al-Queda quoting Menachem Begin´s The Revolt approvingly) is "trivia", is in itself a POV statement. And I definitely object to any statement saying that this was "merely found on a computer somewere"; the finding of this hard-disk (belonging to al-Queda "communication" master as it was termed) was feted a a major setback for al-Q. at the time  (it was front-page news on all major US magazines, e.g. Time mag., Newsweek, The Atlantic); and it actually managed to RAISE the danger level in the USA (to orange). Actually, the more I think of it, there more I´m convinced that it deserves to be quoted, but NOT here (under M.Begin) -but on the al-Q. page, (together with other influences/"teachers" of the group.) The reason it should not be quoted here is that it would be a rather impossible situation if one should list all ideological "offsprings" of certain books/ideas. (Just think of the mass of "offspring" (ie people/groups influenced by) one would then have to list on the pages of Machiavelli, Sun Tsu, The Bible, The Qur'an...) Regards, Huldra 04:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes and citations

message: I have added the NPOV notice becuase this article has biased material from both sides of the issues. The article also includes links to questionable websites. --Mb1000 03:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: NPOV warnings are for actual, specific POV issues in the text.  They are not for articles which have biased links, or which will be likely to "attract biased material". Jayjg (talk) 03:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Should Begin be included in the Category: Israeli criminals?  See the talk page for this category. PatGallacher 15:46, 2005 July 21 (UTC)
:Of what crime was he convicted? Jayjg (talk) 17:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Will I? If so, that will obviously have to be fixed, since if they're not convicted, then their status as a "criminal" is purely subjective. Jayjg (talk) 18:57, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Pat, you're obviously very keen to have Begin classified as a criminal.  Do you think George W. Bush be placed in the category U.S. criminals?  How about Fidel Casto; Cuban criminal? Jayjg (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Artificial? Hardly. Objective is more like it.  I'd like to try to stop these categories from being playgrounds where POV warriors get to classify their favorite boogeymen (usually leading politicians) as "criminals".  One would think, given your devotion to NPOV, that you would support me in that. Say, why don't you create a category "Palestinian criminals", and add Yasser Arafat to that? Jayjg (talk) 19:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Perhaps this section should be archived (that is, laid to rest)?  There is plenty of work to do on this article, and nothing productive will come out of this discussion. --(Mingus ah um 20:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criminal?

message: There are several citations to "Iron Wall", but no reference is given that identifies this source. --Delirium 02:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The citations were not mine, but here's the book's info:
Title: The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World,
Author: Avi Shlaim,
SBN: 0393321126,
Publisher: W. W. Norton & Company,
Publication Date: January 2001,
More info: http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-0393321126-3
-- (Mingus ah um 20:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iron Wall 

message: It would be nice to have a 'headshot' (preferably one that was taken during his term in office as Prime Minister) at the top of the article.
--(Mingus ah um 20:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Headshot'

message: If one merely glanced at the opening paragraph, he or she would believe that Begin is one of Israel uncontested heroes.  As such, the opening paragraph should be revised to include a brief explanation of the controversy which engulfed him in his latter years in office (e.g., the   domestic drama which followed his decision to authorize 1982 Invasion of Lebanon).  Regardless of how one views Begin, there is no question that the war in Lebanon has gone down as one of the most--if not the most--controversial development in Israeli history. --(Mingus ah um 20:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This problem has since been addressed.  --(Mingus ah um 19:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Opening Paragraph Needs to be Revised

message: I have fixed some errors I came across when reading the article, as well as unproven myths (e.g. Irgun fighters were first to open fire on Altalena). I have also added a (short) mention of some battles Irgun was active in during the 1948 war, for informational purposes, as well as preventing the impression that Deir Yassin was the only military action the Irgun took part in during the war. 
-Sangil 14:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some Fixes

message: "Though considered by many to be Israel’s greatest prime minister, Begin’s legacy remains highly controversial and divisive to this day."
I'm not a big fan of the first half of this sentence, for he is the only Israeli Prime Minister to have such a statement in his introduction...  Of course, I would like to avoid another edit war, so here is one suggested alternative: "Though Begin is highly regarded by conservative Israelis, his legacy remains highly controversial and divisive."  Any thoughts? --(Mingus ah um 01:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is perfect, Amirig...  Does anyone have any problems with Amirig's alternative? --(Mingus ah um 19:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I have no info on this poll. Sorry! gidonb 23:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I see that now... for some reason I thought that you had added  to the paragraph instead of fixing links within the paragraph... --(Mingus ah um 01:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lately I have only moved texts, changed titles and wikified here. Just some grey work that also needs to be done. I am very content with the advancement of this article. Regards, gidonb 10:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More on the Introduction/Contested Legacy

message: Forcing the British out of Palestine:
I added information about the Irgun’s complex relationship with mainstream Zionist leadership – the Hunting Season, the cooperation under the Hebrew Resistance Movement, and then its break from the Jewish Agency’s authority. This provides some context about its activity. Also added Begin’s reaction to the UN Partition plan and tried to convey how the Irgun’s history became a political debate. 
Altalena and Independence: 
Moved the reference on the Altalena to the end of the section, to coincide with the chronology. Elaborated a bit about the controversy about Deir Yassin, as well as highlighting Altalena as a struggle over authority in the wake of the establishment of the state of Israel. I removed the reference to Ben Gurion wanting Begin dead as it is controversial.  
Amirig 12:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to In the British Mandate of Palestine

message: Here are some thoughts about topics which are still missing or inadequately addressed in the article:
* Negotiating a majority for the Knesset: I think this focuses a bit too much on election technicalities and specifically the DMC/Dash (Begin actually had a majority without them, and they had little influence and eventually disintegrated). More elaboration on the implications of ending Labor hegemony and why this was a political and structural ‘earthquake’ is required.  
* Isn’t the note about the procedure of forming a government redundant (in the beginning of the ‘Negotiating a majority’ section)? I think that briefly mentioning that it is a system of proportional representation, and a link to the Israeli electoral system would be enough. 
* Economic policies: there is no mention of Likud’s ‘economic revolution’, its mismanagement end eventually the spiraling into hyper-inflation (also worth mentioning is 3 weeks after Begin’s resignation the stock market collapsed).  
* Jewish ethnic tensions: the 1981 elections, considered by many Israel’s most violent, centered on tensions between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Jews. Begin famously gave his ‘chahchahim speech’ and condemned the kibbutzim for being ‘millionaires with swimming pools’. 
* The Litani operation, an IDF incursion into southern Lebanon in 1978 (in many ways a precursor to the 1982 invasion) isn’t mentioned. Should that be part of the ‘Lebanon invasion’ section, or perhaps mentioned earlier in a chronologically appropriate location?  
Amirig 13:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Still missing

message: It is an undisputed fact that once Begin reached Palestine with the Polish Army, he did go AWAOL. This is supported by the fact that he was able to visit Poland as the PM of the State of Israel but was subject to potential arrest if he visited Poland as a private citizen due to his awol status.
:Anon, this page is subject to intense debate, and, as such, any controversial unsourced edits which call into question the beliefs of the pro-Begin or anti-Begin factions will probably be removed by whichever side has been offended.  As such, any edit related to this specific subject will need a citation, and if you have the time/resources to provide two or three, your arguement in support of this addition will be that much stronger...  --(Mingus ah um 19:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AWOL Polish Army 

message: The 'master race' quote is cited from a clearly anti-semetic website, which provides no evidence of Jimmy Carter's supposed statement of Begin's 'Nazi-like racial views'. If no source can be found to support the clearly inflammatory quote and Carter's apparant claim then they should be removed.Robuk 07:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote at end of article 

message: I don't mean to pick a raw nerve, but didn't Menachem Begin have like a five thousand pound bounty on his head for the King David hotel bombing? -- SFH 21:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bounty

message: At the point "Contested Legacy", Firefox doesn't show the "Edit" tags properly (and they cannot be clicked on). (MS Internet Explorer not affected).
It looks as if the photograph in the previous paragraph "Final Years in seclusion" is rather too big, and crosses between sections.
I don't want to mess anything up, but maybe if someone added text to the previous paragraph, it would sort itself out.
(Actually, Wikipedia itself has a problem if you Google a WP article and hit "cache", which is normally a very useful way to get in quickly and find the reference words you were looking for!).
PalestineRemembered 11:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Slight hick-up when accessing this page with the FIREFOX browser