Talk:Mao Zedong/Archive 2

message: With morals and philanthropy aside, Mao's 27 year reign was arguably the "best" thing that happened to Red China from a US political point of view. Think about it. It was Mao's arrogance that forced China to split from its greatest ally, the Soviet Union. If no Sino-Soviet Split occurred, the Soviet Union would have aided China throughout the 60s, 70s and 80s, my god China could have turned in to another global Superpower. Also if China and the Soviet Union were true allies in those 30 years, the Eastern Bloc and the USSR might not have collapsed in 1989 and 1991. Finally, Mao's failed Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution forced Red China to lose 14 years of military, political and economical development. Yes the Chinese suffered BUT their suffering were for the greater good because it helped US interests. This may be callous but politics in this world is very crooked and in the end Washington always consider interests over morals. --Secret Agent Man 06:22, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mao, from a strictly US Cold War, perspective 

message: Trade theory suggests gains of international trade regardless of economic system. Hence the proper question is under what conditions countries give each other favorable conditions of trade instead of huge tariffs and distrustful credit terms.
I would suggest that if Mao were as poor a leader as those of India, the Philippines, Indonesia
or Thailand, then Deng Xiaoping would have had no chance to enjoy the "Open Door" of U.S. trade, because Richard Nixon never would have seen Mao as someone to woo. As a result the trade embargo never would have ended.
The pattern of success speaks for itself. Countries that the United States wanted as showcases against Mao suddenly received great trade attention while the other 150 countries in a similar boat languished.
205.179.217.195 19:45, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Achievements relative to Tigers and Deng Xiaoping 

message: When and why did the media stop writing Mao Tse-Tung and replace it with Mao Zedong?  I first saw the latter form in 1972 in matter that was not in English; I never saw it in English until perhaps the 1990s. Michael Hardy 18:46, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Pinyin was adopted by the UN and the offical organizations of the US in the mid-1980s I believe. American media must've followed soon after. --Menchi (Talk)â 02:15, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanization 

message: Apparently, there was a book written about ten years ago called "The Private Life of Chairman Mao" that claims, amongst other things, that Mao had a rather active extra-marital sex life.  While it's peripheral to his performance as a political leader, it's certainly relevant material for a biography. Is there any independent confirmation on the truth or falsity of these claims?  --Robert Merkel 01:32, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "Certainly relevant"?! :-D There's a tad at Talk:Homosexuality_in_China#Mao. --Menchi 05:08, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Gossip need not be given the dignity of acknowledgement in Wikipedia. Shorne 09:51, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mao's Private Life

message: 172, can I ask why you have reverted my recent attempt to cleanup the intro?  It is frustrating when you revert without providing an explanation.   As I have mentioned, the phrase "free of foreign domination since the Opium War" is incorrect since Qing China only ceded a few ports to Europeans after the Opium War, the mainland was sovereign until the WWII occupation of Japan.
:That was a reference to indirect political and economic dominance. The fact that you are citing is irrelevant. 172 17:01, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, the phrase "for the first time since the Opium War" is inaccurate.  Zh 17:06, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is not. This is a reference to the forced 'opening' of the Chinese market by the British following the First Opium War, not just the cession of Hong Kong to the British in the 1842 Treaty of Nanking. 172 17:20, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "foreign domination" makes it seem like China was a colony of some other nation.  If you need to, make the changes that you see fit.  But unless an edit is pure vandalism, don't revert without an explanation - it can be frustrating for new users or those who have worked hard on an edit that gets reverted.  Zh 17:40, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Foreign domination does not necessarily refer to colonialism. Look up the terms and do some reading on China following the Opium War. This is a reference to China's increasing economic dependence on the Western powers following the forcible opening of a series of key Pacific ports, including Shanghai and Canton (plus the cession of Hong Kong) to British residence and trade. This is not a reference to formal colonialism, but the means of Western penetration accepted along with the treaties following both Opium Wars that led to virtual economic vassalage: (1) extraterritoriality, (2) customs regulation, and (3) the right to station foreign warships in Chinese waters. 172 17:57, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: Many questionable opinions are presented as fact in this article. I shall have to resolve them later.
In the meantime, can anyone cite a source for the claim that China has had the highest economic growth in the world for two decades running? I also wish to know what "economic growth" means here: GDP? per-capita income? capital investment? Shorne 09:46, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: Some troglodyte keeps vandalising the page by deleting large sections and adding such remarks as "i was here". Already we have reverted it at least four times in the past few hours. Please protect the page if the abuse continues. Shorne 20:30, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't need to protect pages in cases of simple vandalism; I or some other admin will just block him from editing if he keeps it up. Everyking 20:36, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Jiang Qing is listed here as the tird wife, but her article says she is the fourth wife. I did a quick search, but could not find out the details. Anybody knows more detail? -- Chris 73 Talk 09:31, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
:There seems to be a possible first wife before Yang Kaihui;  says Mao's first spouse, a family-chosen native of Shaoshan, ended in separation when he married his second wife, Yang Kaihui, a neophyte Marxist, but doesn't mention her name (or explain how a spouse can end in separation- sounds messy). It's also suggested that no. 1 was unconsumated, which may be why it isn't counted (I don't know what Chinese law of the time said, though).  Mark1 06:11, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: So Mao was married 3 to 4 times. Thanks a lot for the info, greatly appreciate you digging up the info. -- Chris 73 Talk 15:45, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
Mao said the following to Edgar Snow: "My parents had married me when I was fourteen to a girl of twenty, but I had never lived with her--and never subsequently did. I did not consider her my wife and at this time gave little thought to her." .  It is very odd to count it as a marriage if there was no consent from the bridegroom, and also no sex.  
Edgar Snow's Red Star Over China has been out of print for more than 20 years, but you can find the entire biography here.
Gwydion M. Williams--172.213.152.47 15:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  wives 

message: I was reading the article for The Long March and it states that an updated analysis of the march states that it was around 6,000 km instead of 9,600 km.  Should we change the 9,600 km to 6,000 km or mention both?  What does everyone think of these two conflicting stats?  I think the 6,000 km stat would be more accurate since the CCP tends to over exagerate their triumphs.  
"The communists escaped in circling retreat to the north, which ultimately covered some 8,000 km (4,960 miles) over 370 days. The route branched through some of the most difficult terrain of western China and arrived 9,600 km (5,952 miles) west, then north, to Shaanxi. (In 2003, Ed Jocelyn and Andrew McEwen[1] retraced the route in 384 days[2] and estimated it was actually about 6,000 km (3,700 miles) long.[3])"
Stephensj74 03:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Long March 

message: I deleted the passage claiming that Mao created myths around his youth, and faked the story about the battle of DaDu river. This is total nonsense. DaDu river battle in no way can be faked. This heroic battle is recored in the memoir of Zhang Guotao, a deadly rival of Mao in 1930's, and who immigrated to Canada later. It's also recorded in  Harrison E. Salisbury 's Long March: the Untold Story. Same way, the claim that Mao faked his youth experience is also ungrounded. I read quite a lot of records of Mao's youth experience, some from official biographies, some from the memoirs of his enemys, and I have to say most of them coincide. There's no denying he had been a brilliant, idealistic young man. 
I am a Chinese  who now studies in U.S. I have a high opinion of  the principle of democracy and personal freedom. But as most my fellow Chinese , I think Mao is a great hero of my country. I don't deny Mao did many wrong things, even ridiculous things, especially in his later years, like Great Leaps and Cultural Revolution. Still, I believe Mao did much more contribution than harm to his country. Without Mao, China could be just like some part of Africa nowadays, divided, ruled by various warlords, forever in war and famine. The people killed could be in billions, not just the 30,000,000 died in Great Leap. 
After reading the discussion here about Mao, I have some words for readers from western countries
1) You shouldn't assume since a person is from a country like China, which has more control on free speech and publications (this I don't deny), he is not capable of free-thinking. This is prejudice and arrogance. Quite to the contrary, people from such backgrounds could be more independently thinking, because from their own experience they are more suspect of any kinds of propoganda, no matter it's from XinHua news agancy or Fox news. And they are more capable of viewing history from various perspectives, not just black and white.
2) Before you take on debate on such a topic, do yourself a favor and read some serious academic books and articles about Chinese history, not just some cheap top-selling book. It's amazing so many people are eager to form an opinion on something they virtually know nothing about. In the first place, how many people here can read Chinese? If I can't read English easily, I won't feel I have the ability to comment on Lincoln or Nixon. Same thing, if you can't read Chinese, you won't be able to gain first-hand, undistorted information about this topic. This doesn't mean you shouldn't form an opinion on Chairman Mao, you have every right to form an opinion about him. But on the other hand, I don't think you are justified to dismiss different opinions from Chinese people as brainwashed or lies.
What you are stating is nothing more than en excuse for the dreadful evil that this "man" inflicted on his countrymen. In his youth he blatantly showed no regard for the peasant in China and disregarded centuries of Chinese culture. He believed totally in self-satisfaction, the belief of looking after ones self. Yet of course he did not apply this to the people he ruled with such barbarity. He was a total narcissist.
The question you must ask yourself Yiyu Shen is how can you excuse the millions he oversaw murdered and the torture that he authorised? I cannot understand that in any way. Put simply, there is no excuse for it. The pictures and photographic evidence is there for all to see and the humiliating torture so many were forced to go through is not excusable. Please do not try and patronize those of us critics by claiming that we do not “see the bigger picture” or “do not understand China and its history.” Murder is murder, and there can be no call for it in any shape or form. Calling this evil mass-murderer a “hero” is just so ridiculous that I do not know whether to laugh or cry.  I spend half my working time in various cities throughout China and see for myself the effects of his legacy. If there is a hell, I can assure you that Mao Zedong is sitting there with Hitler, Stalin and his other friends. TGV
----
I never said Mao shouldn't be responsible for the millions of death in Great Leap, but the question is 
Did Mao intentionally killed the millions of peasants? The answer is no, the millions of death is the outcome of Mao's ridiculous policy, but he didnt' foresee it. Yes, he should be responsible for his mistakes, but he didn't want to kill the peasants, so you can't call him a butcher. This is totally different from Hitler, who intentionally wanted to wipe the Jews from earth. Mao started the Great Leap movement to speed up the production of crops, so that more peasants could be feeded. The thing is at that time the leaders of communist party had very little knowledge of economic management, so they employed ridiculous policies, and caused the drastic reduction of crop production, which lead to the starvation of so many peasants. Even though a leader's mistakes caused so many death, you can't call him a butcher just because of this. By your standard, Neville Chamberlaine should be called a butcher, since his peacefule policy toward Hitler caused the World War II and lead to death of million of Jews and other people. GWB should be called a butcher since his reduction in the funding of FEMA caused the hundreds of death in New Orleane.
Again, Mao should be hashly critized for his wrong policy which caused so many death in Great Leap, but it's not justified in calling him a murderer. And again, the question is , without Mao's revolution, what China will be like nowadays? I don't know, but I know if the KMT could have done a better than communist party , they won't have lost the civil war. Can you imagine how many more Chinese people would die in the endless civil war and famines, which were constant before 1949?
By the way, don't be so harsh toward Stalin, I know he was cruel, but without Staligrad Nazi would be ruling the whole world these days, have you ever read Man in High Castle?
You see what's very sad here Yiyu is the way you ignored totally the statements I made about the TORTURE AND MURDER he inflicted on his people not just the great leap which he oversaw by the way and refused to correct when it was obvious how wrong it was going so he WAS responsible for that. 
So I'll ask again, what about the MURDER he inflicted on his people? The people he commanded his troops and personnel to carry out? How do you justify that? My contention is there simply is no justification for what he did. His cruelty and sadism were shocking. 
What about the mayhem he caused during the Cultural Revolution where Chinese person turned against fellow Chinese person? Or are you going to blame that on the Gang of Four?!
Ok, if it's not the death of Great Leap, so let me ask you, what do you mean by murder? First of all, I think Chang Jun's book is totally a lie, so it's useless to cite the numbers in her book when arguing with me. Do you mean the people killed in civil war? Yes, he was the head of communist army, but should he be considered a butcher just because his army and KMT army were killing each other? If so, is Lincoln a butcher? ( I know many sountheners in U.S really believe he is).
And for the cultural revolution, please notice the word 'revolution', which revolution won't cause death among people? You have to look for what lies in the root of revolution instead of simply say their leaders are butchers. Mao lead cultural revolutionary because he really believed it. Yes, he was wrong in it, but this doesn't mean he intentionally wanted to kill those people who died in it. And which revolution is not inciting people against each other? Which revolution doesn't cause chaos? Wasn't Jefferson and the founding fathers of U.S. inciting the american people against red coats and loyalists? Wasn't Lincoln inciting the North and slaves against the South? And how about French revolution? Even England kill its king in 1649. Can you say Crownwell is not a national hero of England? And can you say Napoleon not a hero of France?
this is truly amazing!!
You are continually ignoring my questions and ignoring them by asking other questions! Mao murdered tens of thousands if not millions of his own people. The people he saw as threatening his Communist superstate and threats to his absolute power. He took revenge gladly throughout his tenure. He personally oversaw the murder of his own people. The "Cultural Revolution" was all about Mao taking revenge on people who quite rightly forced him to step aside after the total failure of the Great Leap Forward.
I think it is worth quoting the comments from a Chinese person reviewing Chang’s book on Amazon:
“There are several reviews here giving lowest mark to the book. Some are justifiable, while I've noticed that there are several suspicious comments. A guy called AChinesePerson might well be a commentator from the Chinese propaganda. Nearly nobody holds such an communist ideological view like he does. If he is not a propaganda person, he is an idiot. The way he tried to defend Mao and Communism is an typical way which is often used by the Chinese propaganda. 
Although the book could be regarded as emotional sometimes, most its comments is reasonable. The author's emotive expression is really understandable to a Chinese who suffered in the Culture Revolution. Unfortunately, having been brainwashed so thoroughly, and having been horrified in those years, few people are able to face the truth, like the author does. 
Chinese people need to know the truth of their own history, particularly the period after 1949, including Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen Massacre. Their ideology has not changed at all since Tiananmen Massacre, despite the economic success. The Chinese Communist party still can not face to them, therefore, the possibility of democratic reform is zero!
How disgusting the Communism is! They are employing commentators commenting the websites, forums and blogs! They are desperately trying to control and go on brainwashing Chinese people! Unfortunately, their effort is somewhat effective. Most people in China do no have a objective view towards Communism, and most people do no dare to critisize the Communist Party. 
Chinese people still suffer from Communism! The democratic world should help!”
TGV
----
I have nothing more to say except that one who claims Chinese people are brainwahed is himself brainwashed.
Yiyu Shen 14:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myth? 

message: Edits I have made are not a POV. They have been stated in the Guardian Newspaper in the UK and have also been stated by many more publications. I object to the allowing of censorship to articles here which are based on fact. Mao did murder countless numbers of his countrymen. The Jung Chang book is the result of an enormous body of work undertaken with hundreds of people talked to and countless references. Wikipedia must not follow MS in trying to sanitise this evil man. Do not allow communist propoganda to go unchallenged.The Great Veritas 21:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Latest Edits

message: I have rewritten the passage which had led to the conflict between The Great Veritas and Yiyu Shen, and presented it to both users on their respective talk pages along with a note explaining that I'm trying to reach a mutually agreeable solution. Currently, Veritas has accepted it, but I haven't seen a response from Yiyu yet. For the meantime, I'm presenting it here for discussion. If Yiyu doesn't reply by midnight on Friday, I'll assume he's not interested in participating further and just insert my text as written.
"Mao has also been criticized for his role in creating a cult of personality. Some analysts believe that he fabricated many myths about his background and youth, to enhance his image as a true "people's hero". It has also been suggested that details relevant to key events in the Long March, in particular the 1935 Battle of Luding Bridge, were falsified.
As well, Mao is widely held responsible for the millions of deaths that occurred during his lifetime - both indirectly, as a result of flawed policies during the Three Bitter Years, and directly, as a result of power struggles and the execution of those who were linked to his opponents and rivals.
Contemporary views about him in the PRC are affected by bans on works that criticise Mao heavily. The controversial "Mao: the Unknown Story", by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, provides a far less flattering picture of Mao than the Chinese authorities would like."
I have rewritten the passage which had led to the conflict between The Great Veritas and Yiyu Shen, and presented it to both users on their respective talk pages along with a note explaining that I'm trying to reach a mutually agreeable solution. Currently, Veritas has accepted it, but I haven't seen a response from Yiyu yet. For the meantime, I'm presenting it here for discussion. If Yiyu doesn't reply by midnight on Friday, I'll assume he's not interested in participating further and just insert my text as written.
"Mao has also been criticized for his role in creating a cult of personality. Some analysts believe that he fabricated many myths about his background and youth, to enhance his image as a true "people's hero". It has also been suggested that details relevant to key events in the Long March, in particular the 1935 Battle of Luding Bridge, were falsified.
As well, Mao is widely held responsible for the millions of deaths that occurred during his lifetime - both indirectly, as a result of flawed policies during the Three Bitter Years, and directly, as a result of power struggles and the execution of those who were linked to his opponents and rivals.
Contemporary views about him in the PRC are affected by bans on works that criticise Mao heavily. The controversial "Mao: the Unknown Story", by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, provides a far less flattering picture of Mao than the Chinese authorities would like."
DS 17:19, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Accepted by whom? The CCP? :p John Smith's 12:29, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't believe wiki IS forming its articles purely on the subject of her book. Concerning Luding, the page clearly mentions sources that do support the status quo. You can't censor references to books just because they challenge exisiting beliefs or theories. If we did that, then no new ideas would ever come forward. You claim that she doesn't have enough evidence for her assertions, while you make statements such as, "here is no reason to deny the possibility that Chang ignored evidence of the battles' existence in order to establish her claim that the battle did not exist". You can't have your cake and eat it. Either get some evidence that Chang has deliberately ignored credible sources, or stop complaining about someone conducting and publishing their own research just because you don't like it. John Smith's 15:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avoiding an Edit War