Talk:Red Ensign/Archive 2

message: AndyL,
I am sincerely asking, will you please delete(in its entirity) your Facist links to the Red Ensign?
Please.
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 19:57, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, your attempt at intimidation via personal attacks has not changed my mind. And yes, it is a personal attack because you are not criticising my arguments but bringing my person into the argument. You have consistently failed to name any non-nazi organzations that advocate the restoration of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag. Instead you have resorted to trolling and posting irrelevent snippets from various things on the internet that have come up via google. If you like we can ask Snowspinner who resolved the LaRouche impasse to intervene here. As for your pesonal behaviour I am taking that to the Arbitration Committee. AndyL 23:45, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Appeal to AndyL to delete the "disputed" Red Ensign linkage

message: I would like anybody new to the wikipedia here to read this over, it would probably help alot. Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 01:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Talk page]]

message: OK, it turns out there is a concerted leftist effort to call the Red Ensign racist.  It is the lead link on: http://againstallflags.blogspot.com/ at the moment.  THIS definitely merits mention.  A2Kafir 02:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Flying or displaying the flag is a bit different than saying it should supplant the Maple Leaf.  The page, as written, implys that many people flying the flag are racists.  It should, at a minimum, mention veterans etc. as discussed above, AND the leftist backlash against the Red Ensign prompted by a few, very small racist groups.  A2Kafir 03:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: By a small group of them, maybe.  Is there a citation you can find where they openly proclaim themselves and say "and the Red Ensign is our symbol!"?  One snapshot of a few nutters isn't enough.  For all I know, that was staged for the cameraman to smear the image of the flag.  A2Kafir 03:16, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heads up 

message: thumb|Click here to enlarge
April 28, 2003
Marchers protest hate-free proposal
By Joe Belanger, Free Press reporter
A former Toronto teacher fired for associating with white supremacists marched through downtown London yesterday to protest the city's proposal for a hate-free community. Paul Fromm, director of the Canadian Association for Free Expression joined seven other people, including representatives of two white supremacist grouops - Northern Alliance and Canadian Heritage Alliance - in the march from the cenotaph at Victoria park (click photo of newspaper article to read more) thumb|Another photo from the march
AndyL 04:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Amusing to me to see the signs.  They just say "Free speech for all."  What's wrong with that?  In the States, nothing.  But I remember when Detroit newspapers were treated as contraband at the Canadian border because they reported on some trial in Canada that some judge said the people were verboten to know about.  Sounded a bit, well, fascist to me.  But I guess I'm just a dumb American. :)  A2Kafir 04:28, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  news report 

message: My thoughts:
(i)  The fact that far-right and neo-nazi groups in Canada have attempted to adopt (or co-opt) the Red Ensign as "their" symbol is indisputable, and has been documented in several sources.  This information is historically significant, both as regards the evolving "cultural significance" of the flag, and as an insight into the propaganda methods of Canada's far-right networks.  It is, therefore, worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia.
(ii)  Obviously, the Red Ensign is not used *exclusively* by far-right and neo-nazi groups in Canada.  I gather from the above discussion that no-one is opposed to qualifying the current passage so as indicate that many individuals outside the political fringe have a personal connection to the flag, and are willing display it on regular occasions.
(iii)  My solution would be to create a sub-section of the article entitled "The Red Ensign in Recent Decades" (or "The Red Ensign since 1960", or "The Red Ensign as a Political Symbol", or other words to that effect).  This sub-section could include (i) John Diefenbaker's attempts to establish/retain the RE as Canada's national flag, (ii) efforts by conservative-but-not-far-right groups like the Orange Order to mobilize support for the RE in the 1960s, (iii) the continuing use of the flag by monarchists and others in the political "mainstream", and (iv) the recent use of the flag by far-right groups (+ whatever else may be appropriate).
This approach would allow all relevant information to be covered, while also ensuring that no sensible reader would come away from the article thinking that *only* fringe groups in Canada, and their supporters, still display the RE.
Does this seem reasonable?  CJCurrie 04:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better than what's there now. A2Kafir 04:16, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A Possible Solution

message: Aryan Nations Fly USA Flag
http://images.google.com/images?q=naziandoldglory.jpg&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi
By AndyL's absurdly low bench-mark, the USA Flag page here on Wikipedia, should have the USA Flag linked to the Aryan Nations.
Sieg Heil.
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 04:09, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Point well taken.  Nutters in the US use the present and past US flags in their parades.  Yet no one but the whacko leftists in the USA consider the flag a symbol of fascists.A2Kafir 04:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: News Flash:  Aryan Nations Fly the USA Flag

message: They are all Flags of the British Navy Jack Design.  Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, and Hawaii (the Sandwich Islands) where all British Colonies.  We all share a common culture, the English-Speaking Culture.
::the flag with the Canadian shield in the main red section, and the British Union Jack in the upper left. That flag symbolized a connection, a common heritage of our two countries, the Anglo-Saxon heritage which is still commemorated in Hawaii's flag and which was also used in the American 'Grand Union' flag as well.
The above Flag observations are correct.  
The USA's Grand Union Flag (1775-1777 AD)
http://flagspot.net/images/u/us-gu.gif
Canadian Red Ensign (until 1964 AD)
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-1957.gif
Australian Blue Ensign
http://flagspot.net/images/a/au.gif
New Zealand Blue Ensign
http://flagspot.net/images/n/nz.gif
Hawaii State Flag
http://flagspot.net/images/u/us-hi.gif
Additionally,
::Their criticism of the old red ensign was that it stressed our European heritage -- you've got the Union Jack in the top left, which correctly emphasized the fact that our legal system and our political system derives from Britain. 
::Also the crest was filled with reminders of our European heritage -- it contained the crests of the French, the Irish, and the Scots; and then the three maple leaves joined together at the bottom of the crest, which were originally green maple leaves, symbolized the founding European peoples. This can be read a number of ways, but the founding European peoples -- the French, the English, and then the others who came later, all united to create the one. It was a very powerful and very dramatic flag.
The French-Speaking part of Canada was recognised by the Banner of Royalist France(the three Golden Fleur-de-lis on a blue background), that was present on the shield of the Coat-of-Arms of Canada, present in the Red Ensign field,
Royalist France
http://flagspot.net/images/f/fr-3b.gif
Canadian Coat-of-Arms (1957-1994 AD)
http://scaa.usask.ca/gallery/flagdisplay/images/web/panel1-1.jpg
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 05:34, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, I won't get into this.  CJCurrie 06:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Red Ensign, The Grand Union, The Hawaii Flag, and The Blue Ensign

message: Hello CJCurrie,
You wrote below,
::I won't go into your comments on the origins of the Canadian flag, though suffice it to say that I have some difficulties with your analysis.
Diffculty with my analysis CJCurrie,
Canadian Maple Leaf Flag
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca.gif
Proposed 1920 Quebec Flag
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-qc!20.gif
The link between the parentage of these Flags is unmistakable.
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon
:::Again, I won't get into this. CJCurrie 06:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: CJCurrie:  The Maple Leaf Flag is a Canadian French Republican Tri-colour

message: Hello CJCurrie,
Please review,
French Republican Tri-colour (Blue-White-Red)
http://flagspot.net/flags/fr.html
http://flagspot.net/images/f/fr.gif
Peru Flag (Red-White-Red) Tri-colour
http://flagspot.net/flags/pe.html
http://flagspot.net/images/p/pe.gif
Canadian Maple Leaf (Red-White-Red)  Tri-colour
http://flagspot.net/flags/ca.html
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca.gif
A tri-colour Flag is composed of THREE REGIONS (not necessarily three colours).
A bi-colour is similarly composed of TWO REGIONS.
Vertical Regions' (up-and-down) are called Pales.
e.g., Early Quebec St. Jean Bapstiste Flag (ca. 1840)
 
http://flagspot.net/flags/ca-qcsjb.html
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-qc{j2.gif
(a vertical bi-colour, with Green-White Pales)
Franco-Ontarien Flag (1975 AD)
http://flagspot.net/flags/ca-on.html#Ontarois
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-f-ont.gif
(a vertical bi-colour, with Green-White Pales, with a White Jean d'Arc Fleur-de-lis, and a Green Trilium, blazoned on the left and right Pales, respeectively). 
Horizontal Regions' (left-to-right) are called Fesses.
The first Revolutionary Tri-colour was used by Protestant (Lutheran) Dutch, who declared the Independence of the Republic of the United Provinces of the Netherlands in 1582 AD.   The Dutch War of Independence (1581-1648 AD) resulted in the Spanish Netherlands breaking away from Spain.
Their Revolutionary Republican Tri-colour was known as the Prinsevlag,
http://flagspot.net/images/n/nl-princ.gif
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 07:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Explaination of Bi-Colours and Tri-colours

message: I've just read over this debate for the first time. I was not previously involved or aware of this debate. I have to side with AndyL and CJCurrie on this. I do not accept the contention that AndyL is trying to smear the RE by linking it to neonazi groups. He has made a solid case that those groups are trying to take possession of the flag, and that merits mention in the CRE article. The changes that he has proposed to clarify that use of the CRE does not imply support for those groups address the concerns that have been raised by others. it seems pretty clear that ArmchairVexillologistDon is too close to this debate to bea ble to determine what is NPOV. For the record, I fly the CRE on Dominion Day alongside the Maple Leaf for historical reasons, and will continue to do so to ensure that it does not become a neonazi flag.  There are my two cents. Kevintoronto 14:46, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A new look

message: Hello,
Thank you very much for moving the "said Facist links" off the front page of Wikipedia's Red Ensign area.  I am very happy that "it" is now not the first thing you see.
Additional Information Page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Red_Ensign
::Most supporters of the Canadian Red Ensign, however, reject attempts by white supremacists to co-opt the symbol and decry attempts to associate the Canadian Red Ensign with racist views.
Thank you so much for saying that very clearly.  I can not thank you, and Wikipedia enough.   The page which you have added, in my opinion, is excellent.  It presents all the facts, within their context, in a fair balanced, and informative fashion.  In my opinion I feel that you have done a great service to the history of the Red Ensign, and Wikipedia.  Thank you again for this kind, fair, balanced, and very professional encyclopedia entry.
Thank you very much indeed.
Sincerely,
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 17:20, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Thank you for moving "it" off the front page

message: AndyL, it seems your "love" of the Red Ensign is not "limited" to the Canadian Red Ensign (1867-1964 AD), but you seem to favour the replacement of the Provincal Red Ensigns as well.
You (according to the website history logs) favour the inclusion of the following "replacing the Red Ensigns" links posted below,
Replacement of Ontario Red Ensign with French Republican Tri-colour
http://makepeace.ca/on/en/
Replacement of the Manitoba Red Ensign with a "Stylised Buffalo"
http://www.mts.net/~hajones/portfol/flag.htm#flag
Neither of these Red Ensigns (the Ontario, and the Manitoba) have even been touched by any Facist groups.   'So, it would seem that you AndyL have a systematic Adgenda to get rid of all Canada's Red Ensigns.
It would seem, that you AndyL are anti-British Commonwealth, eh.
ArmchairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 04:18, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Moreover there is no evidence that AndyL added the links in question to those pages. - SimonP 06:07, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
In fact I did not add those links though I don't see the problem with either of them. Certainly not with the Manitoba link given its origins with a Winnipeg Free Press contest (thus making it newsworthy).AndyL 08:24, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL: Ontario's and Manitoba's Red Ensigns appear to be on your Hit-List

message: I've been asked to see what I can do to help resolve this dispute. To start, would some people please quickly tell me what's going on? I'd obviously like multiple sides of the story. Snowspinner 07:57, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
The dispute has actually been resolved. Don is continuing his personal attacks, however, for no discernable reason. AndyL 08:01, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The dispute has actually been resolved. Don is continuing his personal attacks, however, for no discernable reason. AndyL 08:01, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Resolution

message: AndyL,
Do not delete my Ontario/Manitoba Red Ensign entries.  If you do, I shall consider it VANDALISM BY YOU.  Then I shall be forced to request ARBITARTION on BOTH the Ontario, and Manitoba Red Ensign pages.
I have a bookcase of Heraldy (Coats-of-Arms, Family Crests), and Vexillology (Study of Flags) books.  I have studied them intensively, as I derive great pleasure from doing so.  The Ontario and Manitoba Red Ensigns are illustrated and referenced "at the turn of the century" (that is around 1900-1910).  I have the books to prove it.  I shall buy a SCANNER, and scan them in here for all to see, if it will shut you up.
ArmchairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 19:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Warning to AndyL :  Do not delete my Ontario/Manitoba Red Ensign entries

message: New Zealand has one too, right?A2Kafir 20:14, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  I see someone added Australia's 

message: The Coat-of-Arms of Ontario was granted in 1868 AD.  Thus, the Provincal Government unoffically used the Ontario Red Ensign from 1868-1965 AD.  In 1965 AD, they simply designated the already in use Red Ensign, as their offical Flag.
Similarily, The present day Coat-of-Arms of Manitoba was granted in 1905 AD.  Thus, the Provincal Government unoffically used the Manitoba Red Ensign from 1905-1966 AD.  In 1966 AD, they simply designated the already in use Red Ensign, as their offical Flag.
These are facts.  
I have the books to prove it.  As the Christmas season is tight for cash, I may or may not buy a scanner.  If I do, I shall scan in the information and post it here. Until then AndyL's act of VANDALISM of the Ontario and Manitoba Red Ensign pages will stand.'
AndyL, you are a vindicative vandaliser, and I amazed that Wikipedia has you as an editor.
BTW, before the 1948 AD Fleur-de-lis Flag the province of Quebec had a Blue Ensign Flag.  In the Blue field the 1868 AD Coat-of-Arms of Quebec was placed.   The Quebec Flag page is in GROSS ERROR by incorrectly stating that Quebec previously had a Red Ensign.  It NEVER had a Red Ensign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Quebec
From 1868-1948 AD Quebec had a BLUE ENSIGN.
If anyone actually cares.
Hey AndyL, perhaps you could take a break form you apparent favourite activity of VANDALSING FACTUAL ENTRIES, and actually CORRECT a GROSS FACTUAL ERROR in the Quebec Flag page,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Quebec
'Quebec Blue Ensign
Flag of 1868 (only official design after 1920)'''
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-qchis.html
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/c/ca-qc192.gif
Its is a BLUE Ensign, NOT a Red Ensign.  The Red and Blue colour have different meanings (not that I could write this here,  without you VANDALISING IT).
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 23:14, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Assertion is not fact. Where is your evidence?AndyL 23:46, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL :  Andy has committed vandalism of the Ontario/Manitoba Red Ensign Pages

message: AndyL,
Just to let you know, I have added an entry on the Red Ensign of the Dominion of New Zealand.  I have provided an EXACT REFERENCE, for my entry, (in fact I have purchased the said 1929 Book by Gordon, and I reading it now).
I ask you not to VANDALISE my entry.
Please.
::The Dominion of New Zealand had an offical Civil Red Ensign, for use on land in 1902 AD.  The Red Ensign was particularly popular with the Native Maori Tribes, who prefered the use of Red over the Blue.
http://flagspot.net/images/n/nz_civil.gif
::Reference:
::W.J. Gordon, "Flags of the World Past & Present Their Story & Associations", Frederick Wayne, and Co. LTD, London, New York, pp.101-103, Colour Plate p.103, (1929).
ArmchairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 20:18, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: New Zealand

message: The Blue, Red, and White UK Navy Jacks (aka Ensigns) originated in the Blue, Red, and White Fleets, respectively.  As the overseas Colonies of the UK developed, the UK Ensigns took on specific meanings.
(i). The Blue Ensign denoted Government Ships that supplied Government Colonies.
(ii). The Red Ensign denoted Commerical Ships that supplied Commerical
Colonies.
(iii). The White Ensign denoted Warships Ships that protected ALL of the UK and its Colonies,Possessions, and Territories.
Thus, the most specific of these in the White Ensign, know as the War Ensign, as it is typicallly used for Warships.  Note, the White Ensign was used on Land, for some Colonies that were primarily a NAVAL BASE.
The USA, and Canada were Commerical Colonies thus they had Red Ensigns.
Whereas Australia, and New Zealand were Government Colonies thus they had Blue Ensigns.
Now with regards to USAGE of ENSIGNS.
Commercial Colonies had Red Ensigns for CIVIL USE (the people) on Land, and Blue Ensigns for VISITING HEADS-OF-STATE, and the Governor-General,
Government Colonies had Red Ensigns for CIVIL USE (the people) on Land, and Blue Ensigns FOR GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS, and REPRESENTING the NATION abroad, and at FORMAL FUNCTIONS.
XXXX
SimonP,
You wrote,
:Where is this information from?  I have never before heard of this "commercial colony"/"government colony" distinction. - SimonP 16:33, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
How long have you studied Flags? What standard texts have you read?
Question:
Why do most USA State Flags have a BLUE BACKGROUND?
Do you know why?
ArmchairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 16:54, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Explaination of UK Navy Jacks: The Blue, Red, and White Ensigns and their Meanings