Talk:Dream of the Red Chamber

message: I hope that a few things should be observed when doing the write-up on the characters.
*Do not write too long a section on each person.  Detailed write-up can be split over to their own 'name article' page.
*Do not give spoiler warnings away.
*As far as possible, ignore (and refrain from writing about) the Gao E's 120 chapter version's ending.  Those endings do not conform to the original writers' intent. 165.21.154.70 (talk) 09:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds like a great idea. We should move some of the details to the characters' individual pages. I will probably put some time into this in the near future. --Catch153 (talk) 07:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Character section

message: I'd like to suggest amending the description of Bonsall's translation as follows in order to give a more complete picture:
The typescript of another complete translation, by Dr Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926, has been made available through the University of Hong Kong Libraries. The translation was completed in the 1950s and is accessible in pdf[2] from the library Web site. This version was accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York but has not been officially published.
Jklai (talk) 03:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bonsall's translation 

message: After my editing, i've got two reverts. One for too many spelling mistakes and one for neutrality. I didn't realize where did i broke the neutrality. So please help me to improve the article, Thanks a lot! 百家姓之四 討論 (Discussion) 04:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to write better English and also give references for your facts.  As of now, the edits read very POV. Sooner or later someone will revert to the older version. 124.155.207.10 (talk) 03:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: Some non-native English writers are writing something like Anglo-Chinese pidgin in this article.  It must be rectified or the article will be unintelligible. 116.14.114.58 (talk) 09:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not discourage non-native English writers. It is far easier to correct a Chinese expert's English than to find a native English speaker with expertise on this subject who also writes for Wikipedia. Evangeline (talk) 07:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyediting

message: I am reading Dream of the Red Chamber. I thought it would be helpful to add details about the characters' names.  Someone listed the traditional Chinese names, and I included the simplified Chinese, pinyin, Wade-Giles, and translation. I realize one of the previous anonymous editors removed translations of names. It will be helpful for readers to see the translations because the book sometimes makes puns and other references to the meaning of the names. Please do not remove them.  I added notes about Wade-Giles, etc. because some online resources such as Cliffnotes do not use the Pinyin names, so it will help readers' research.
If it may be helpful to readers and their understanding of the novel, do not remove it. Thank you. --Catch153 (talk) 07:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details about the characters' names 

message: Assails Men?!
Oh man, Who would call a girl this way?
Why not translate the "supposed" meaning 花气袭人知骤暖? OK I know it is hard to explain that in English, but it worths a try.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purpureleaf (talk • contribs) 15:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It explains her name in the book (where everyone also thinks it's a crazy name to give a girl). She's a bondmaid and her new owner is the whimsical hero Bao-yü, who loves poetry. He names her after Lu You's  (陆游) poem in which it is said that a flower's fragrance is so strong it "assails men." Evangeline (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  袭人's name  

message: Does anyone know if this work (meaning at least the first 80 chapters) has been published in a simplified Chinese version? I was only able to locate a traditional character version. K. the Surveyor (talk) 21:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simplified Chinese version? 

message: I wasn't sure what translated title was most standard.  I ran some Google searches for each version on Google Web search and Google Book Search:
* "dream of the red chamber" 127,000 results on the Web / About 38,000-44,100 results in books
* "dream of red chambers" 31,600 results on the Web / About 251 results  results in books
* "dream of the red mansion" 51,500 results on the Web / About 263 results in books
* "dream of red mansions" 4,690,000 results on the Web / About 10,400 results in books
Not the book results vary, even when searches are seconds apart.  The Web results are skewed because of the TV series based on the novel. So, it seems that it is best to leave it as "Chamber" because this is how it is most commonly referred to in literature.--Catch153 (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI: Title & Translation: Red Mansions or Chamber 

message: I removed links to translations which might imply Wikipedia approval. The Introduction to the first says: the Rev. Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, M.A., B.D., D.Lit.
(Lond,) was a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926. After his return to England he continued his interest in China and the study of its language and literature. In the late 1920s he obtained his Doctorate, that involved a complete translation of the Zhan Guo Ce (Chan Kuo Ts’e), the Records of the Warring States. In his retirement in the 1950s he completed a translation of all 120 chapters of the Chinese novel, the Hung Lou Meng, often known as the Dream of the Red
Chamber. This was later accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York, but the project was abandoned when Penguin announced its proposed translation by Professor David Hawkes, with John Minford. These two translations by my father, made without having access to libraries or discussions with other scholars, were probably the first to be made into English of these two complete works." ch (talk) 05:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed outdated translations 

message: Friends --
I apologize for not making more clear Haun Saussy's significant and interesting point in the phrase which has been cut twice. His article "The Age of Attribution: Or, How the "Honglou Meng" Finally Acquired an Author," Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR)  (2003):  119-132.  does not simply make the point that Hu Shi established Cao’s authorship, but that the concept of “authorship” had not been important to earlier readers. It would have been relatively easy for nineteenth century readers to find Cao if that had been an important question to them, but in fact, argues Saussy, it was not. This is surprising to us today, so it seemed important to give a reliable source and to put its point carefully. Here is Saussyu’s own language
:The Honglou meng (or Shitou ji)  began its career in print as an authorless, somewhat mysterious piece of fiction open to multiple lines of interpretation. The identification of Cao Xueqin (ca. 1715-ca. 1763) as its main author was the great turning point in the history of its reading and holds lessons for the theory of authorship in general. For most people, that identification came in 1922 with Hu Shi's essay "A Text-Critical Study of the Honglou meng." Once an author had been added to the book, reading proceeded differently, as if Hu Shi, Gu Jiegang  and others of that ilk had made all previous theorizing obsolete. But of course Hu Shi did not create the author out of nothing. The name Cao Xueqin occurs in the book's first chapter among those who have "compiled ... added to and trimmed" the novel's many versions. From then on, for most readers of the book, all sorts of interpretative and textual questions require, to be answered, a grounding in the personality and motives of Cao Xueqin himself, a definite historical individual with a life outside the novel. I would like us to consider the possibility that this is by no means a necessary development. For the first hundred and thirty years of its circulation in print, the novel was read in various fashions, for some of which an author was a far less vivid or controlling presence.
If nobody objects or comes up with a better wording, in a few days I will put a somewhat clearer version of this back into the sentence on Hu Shi. This is important in explaining how Chinese readers understood the novel and how our present day readings are different from earlier ones. Not that this should take up great space, however! Half a sentence is not excessive. ch (talk) 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The question of authorship 

message: I am thinking about adding the names used by Hawkes and Minford for the maids, so as to make the character descriptions more accessible for readers of their translation (which is probably the vast majority of English-language readers).  So in the "additional names" parenthesis after Xi-Ren, there would be something like "Hawkes/Minford translation: Aroma".  What do people think about this? -- Danny Yee (talk) 19:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Very helpful. ch (talk) 04:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hawkes/Minford names for maids, and name translations in general

message: I glanced through articles for a few of the other long novels, which mostly list the main characters, with a brief description. But Dream of the Red Chamber has more characters, and is unusual in that Cao Xueqin intended the names of the characters to convey something of their significance. So I agree that the meanings of the names should be on the main page, but I wonder if we couldn't make the page more reader friendly. One quick fix would be to move the "Characters" section to the end, after "Translations and Reception in the West."
Perhaps better is that we could create an independent article to which we would move "Other Notable Characters" and "Minor Characters" list and more details, such as is done for List of The Tale of Genji characters and List of War and Peace characters. The main article would have only the principle characters, with English versions of their names indicated.
My own feeling is that the second option is better, but I will hold off creating the new page until enough editors have weighed in. All the best for the holiday season. ch (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the second option as well. DORC (talk) 12:52, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal: New Page for Dream Characters? 

message: The article referred to as reference 19 (Cao Xueqin himself destroyed the 110 chapter Dream of the Red Chambers' last 30 chapters) contains nothing but ideology propaganda. The claim that Cao must have destroyed his last 30 chapters is because he foresaw and could not bear to accept that the "feudal" society he lived in is falling apart is laughable. Moreover, the referred article is also full of tolling that Cao is of inferior ideology (in the sense that he is a "ruling" class of the feudal society), which is not only flawed but also irrelevant to literature criticism. Please try to use reference which is logically/academically sound and/or has solid evidence within to support the view that Cao may have destroyed his last 30 chapters.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liux0229 (talk • contribs) 05:34, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please consider removing reference 19 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I redirected the page The Story of Stone here, since it was a duplicate of this topic as far as I could see. I did want to include a link to the article history just in case there's anything that should be merged. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 20:36, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirected 

message: The novel was written in the Qing dynasty, but the art work show that the characters were not dressed in the Qing style. So which era or dynasty was the novel set in? 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:F4C0:1140:A9F8:1A7C (talk) 14:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The novel is set in the Qing -- pictures are not necessarily historically accurate.ch (talk) 19:27, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cao Xueqin himself didn't draw any of the pictures; they are all artistic impressions by later artists.
73.254.192.168 (talk) 06:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What era or dynasty is the story set in? 

message: This article mixes British and American spellings at the moment. Looking back into the page history, it seems that the page used realize before any -ise words crept in and disfavour was inserted one month later. Therefore, I think it should use Oxford spelling, as it did from 10 June 2005 until (seemingly?) 12 March 2007 when someone added an authorised and then the same person added a favorite a few hours later. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  ENGVAR