Talk:Abu Sufyan ibn Harb

message: In a film it is shown that "Abu Sufyan" village was overrun by a massive army of Muslim loyal to Muhammad. It is also shown that Abu Sufyan surrendered to Muhammad in a very humiliating manner. 10:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Film

message: ===Sunni view===
Sunni view him as upright, since they view all Sahaba as upright.
===Shi'a view===
Shi'a have a very dim view of Abu Sufyan, seeing his conversion as nothing more than a act of necessity. Shi'a also note that Ali refused his helped during the succession of Muhammad, and also note how Abu Sufyan's son became a ardent enemy of Ali.
===Non-Muslim view===
The logic of Abu Sufyan's acceptance of Islam is believed to be more of a political one than a serious change of heart or sudden spiritual enlightenment. Upon his defeat, Abu Sufiyan found it politically right to accept Islam.
Please find sourcing for this before adding the section back.--Isotope23 16:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the non-Muslim view, since i didnt put it there, but the Sunni view is easly confirmed by going to the highligheted link. The Shi'a view is actualy quite bening compared to the real Shi'a view. I dont remeber right now witch book i saw the "helping ali" part, but that is a undisputed Shi'a view. I know it must be better sourced, but please consired how ill sourced the rest of the article is, and also that it can be hard to find sources for detailed maters. Its not like i added anything controversial. --Striver 17:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Striver, The link you've referenced is an internal link to another Wikipedia article and Wikipedia cannot be a reference for itself.  Besides, the article linked to isn't exactly verified by a Reliable source as the views appear to be primarily based on [this link to a Geocities site. As for the Shi'a view, it has nothing to do with how benign the view is or whether it is controversial... it has to be verifiably referenced by Reliable sources.  If you can remember the book name, then the text can be added back with an appropriate reference (and if you don't know how to add a cited reference from a book to an article, I'd be happy to show you), but it has to be cited first before it gets added back into the article.  Yes, the whole rest of the article needs to be better sourced as well, but that isn't an excuse for adding in more unsourced material.  Like I said above, I dumped the text here so it can be added back easily once sourcing is found, but sourcing has to be found before it is added back to the article.--Isotope23 18:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I dont get why you delete only my addition and only "facted" the rest, but whadever, im not going to fight this. --Striver 20:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Because the rest of the article is rather long... it will probably take me a few days to get through the whole thing, read the sources provided, find additional sources, and edit the article down to verifiability.  Please don't take it personally... to be honest I had no idea that section was your only addition to the article until you stated that here.--Isotope23 02:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as the article gets better, im satisfied :) --Striver 02:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Views

message: The logic of Abu Sufyan's acceptance of Islam is believed to be more of a political one than a serious change of heart or sudden spiritual enlightenment. Upon his defeat, Abu Sufiyan found it politically right to accept Islam.
Please find sourcing for this before adding the section back.--Isotope23 16:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the non-Muslim view, since i didnt put it there, but the Sunni view is easly confirmed by going to the highligheted link. The Shi'a view is actualy quite bening compared to the real Shi'a view. I dont remeber right now witch book i saw the "helping ali" part, but that is a undisputed Shi'a view. I know it must be better sourced, but please consired how ill sourced the rest of the article is, and also that it can be hard to find sources for detailed maters. Its not like i added anything controversial. --Striver 17:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Striver, The link you've referenced is an internal link to another Wikipedia article and Wikipedia cannot be a reference for itself.  Besides, the article linked to isn't exactly verified by a Reliable source as the views appear to be primarily based on [this link to a Geocities site. As for the Shi'a view, it has nothing to do with how benign the view is or whether it is controversial... it has to be verifiably referenced by Reliable sources.  If you can remember the book name, then the text can be added back with an appropriate reference (and if you don't know how to add a cited reference from a book to an article, I'd be happy to show you), but it has to be cited first before it gets added back into the article.  Yes, the whole rest of the article needs to be better sourced as well, but that isn't an excuse for adding in more unsourced material.  Like I said above, I dumped the text here so it can be added back easily once sourcing is found, but sourcing has to be found before it is added back to the article.--Isotope23 18:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I dont get why you delete only my addition and only "facted" the rest, but whadever, im not going to fight this. --Striver 20:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: *Because the rest of the article is rather long... it will probably take me a few days to get through the whole thing, read the sources provided, find additional sources, and edit the article down to verifiability.  Please don't take it personally... to be honest I had no idea that section was your only addition to the article until you stated that here.--Isotope23 02:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as the article gets better, im satisfied :) --Striver 02:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-Muslim view

message: Striver, I reverted your change because it looks like you took the article back to the version that attributes information and quotes about Abu Sufyan ibn al-Harith to Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, which is what I'm trying to clean up here.  Probably a better thing to do would be to take the version I have right now and add to it with WP:V information rather that revert back to earlier versions that contain factual inaccuracies.--Isotope23 14:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed everything that was controversial, regardless of if it was accurate or not. This version as is now is not inaccurate. --Striver 23:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tagged 2 things that need cites.  I'm not concerned with if the information is controversial... I'm interested if it is sourced.  The family section needs to have sources provided for his lineage.--Isotope23 13:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I truly agree that they need to be sourced. It is probable that i added them in the article sometime, and added a references to it at that time to this or some other article, but i cant find it now :( However, i am sure that i have read that, so let it be taged till i stubmle on those lines again. I gave it a short search, and found something else to add. As for lineage, ill keep it mind and i will add it as stumble on the references while i research. --Striver 15:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: wow, great, that explain it all. What was her name and patronimyc? --Striver 20:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Hey, that would put it on colision with another tradition... we need sources to get out of this confusion. --Striver 20:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You do know that both Abu Sufyan, Hind and Uthman where all Banu Ummayed, so there is no conflict in being the cousin of Uthman and the Daughter of hind... unless im wrong... --Striver 21:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do know her name:صفية بنت أبي العاص, Saffya bint aby al-A'as (aunt to this man Amr ibn al-A'as, she is daughter of aby (father of) al-A'as so sister to al-A'as and he is ibn (son of) al-A'as!). Don't worry, if I say they didn't have the same mother, I know what I am talking about! There is no way that Hind could be the prophets mother-in-law (although later she became a good mulsim woman, even complaining about her husbands frugality to the prophet). As to sources for the name: , , . I am working on sources for the article (I am looking in a digital library for prime sources instead of just webpages) --DelftUser 19:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked my father, and he did'nt know, and you seem to be very confident, as well as you seem to have researched it, so ill trust you on this one. Ill make the changes to all relevant articles, but we still need english references. --Striver 00:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You need them! I doubt you'll find a source in English for something that happend 10 centuraies before the invention of the English language! I wish you luck in your search. --DelftUser 15:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I didn't know one was needed! I still don't know. --DelftUser 15:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert

message: His Daughter didn’t divorce her husband! She only left him, because he first became a drunkard and then an apostate! She lived with her daughter all alone in a room with little contact with the outside world. 
The source I am using, Al-Kammel phy al-Tarikh by Ali ibn al-Athir, is basically a revised edition of Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk, without the sources (paragraphs consisting of: this man heard from that man, etc., etc.) and with some editing, like naming all those who died in a certain year at the end of that year’s chapter, plus what happened since the first book was written (mainly the start of the crusades!). --DelftUser 15:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed a couple of paragraphs which are just slander by the Shi'a! if you want to add them back, please add them under the Shi'a View section! I think the person who added is a Shi'a who only had access to Shi'a books and probably doesn't read Arabic, nor is he knowledgeable about Arabic culture, To even suggest that the most noble woman in Makkah was in anyway related to something as dishonorable as "Nikah Ijtimah" as either a result of extreme lack of knowledge or extreme malice! --DelftUser 15:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  update... 

message: Sorry for the late answer. Bro, as for "Can you with all fairness and honesty, and God as your witness, say it is not political slander": I can say that i am not confident that it is political slader. 
*Point one: This is about jahiliya customs.
To me, this kind of acts represent the infedility of the mushrik Meccan. You seem to imply that this kind of behavior is totaly unaccaptable. Bro, lets step back a few steps. First of all, they were not even Sahaba at the time of those events. And not even that, they were not even enemies of Islam, the event occured even before that, in the Jahiliya. You know, the period of time when Umar was a drunk and used to worship idols. That period. 
Why do you think it was called jahiliya? You think they ignored everything, but were chaste in regards to sex? In sweden, they call themselves Christian, but they openly advocate homosexuality:
: Under the amendment intended to take effect March 1, 2000, non-Swedish homosexual couples who have lived in Sweden for at least two years will be eligible for registration. 
They even sue anti-homosexual priests! Look at Åke Green, he was sued for condeming homosexuality. I assure you, in sweden, they do 'not regard zina as least objectionable, they show pornographic material to children as part of "sexual education" clases and they encourage them to have pre-maritial relations, they even hand out free condoms in schools.
There are plenty of societies that do not regard zina as objectionable, Prostitution in Germany is legal and widespread.  And we are talking about so called Christian contries, what makes you so convinced that the Jahilya mushriks were so much better?
I want a answer to this, what makes you belive that it was a unthinkable crime for the jahiliya mushriks to comit zina?
*Point two: You regard even pree Khaybar Sahaba as having problem from keeping from Zina.
If the jahiliya mushriks really viewd zina as objectionable, then please answer why you regards the Sahaba so incapable of keeping from zina that you belive the Prophet had to give them permision to make Mut'ha`? According to your scholars, Mut'ah was forbiden in Khaybar or at the conquest of Mecca, and your scholars argue that the reason it was practiced two-three times is that the Sahaba were (astakhfurillah) unable' to withhold from zina! And we are not even talking about Abu Sufyan, he was not even among the Sahaba then, but we are talking about pree-conquest Sahaba!
I want a answer to my second question, if zina was considered so objectionable during the jahiliya, why do your scholars view the Ansar and Muhajireen as unable to withold from zina?
*Point three: It is not slander if they endorse it. 
*Point Four: Why did he not consider it objectionable while being a caliph?
Regarding "anything less is technically slander". It is not "my slander", i am citing sources. And in any case, it is hardly slander when they do it in the open, did'nt Muawiyah declare Ziyad ibn Abihi as his brother, in direct violation to the shariah? If he was able to declare a open zina-born as his brother while being a caliph, what makes you think it is so unthinkable that he himself was ibn zina?
Please answer point three and four.
Regarding "I, personally, don’t like to repeat such “political slander”". Well, who does? But we are writing a biography, arent we? 
*Point Five: are we supposed to ignore such reports? 
As for: "Are you so sure of your place in heaven that you so confidently claim this and that about those who prayed behind the Rasool?"
First of all, he was not praying behind the rasool at that time, he was praying behind Hubal or some other ghayrallah. At that time, Umar was occupied strangliing her five year old daughter and buring her. It is that time we are talking about. I am not claiming Abu Sufyan did zina, i would never claim anything about people. What i am doing is presenting the reports of people. Now, please answer me, are we supposed to ignore such reports? Are we supposed to censure wikipedia of any reports of zina on the grounds of Sharia? please read again how i formulated it: 
:He was rumored to have a relation with Layla binte Harmalah, the mother of Amr ibn al-A'as
:However, controversial Muslim sources state that the marriage to Muawiyah's mother was arranged since
Is that slander by me, or reporting controverial relevant facts on notable characters? Please do note that nowhere does it state that he did zina, just that there are (true or false) controverial reports and rumors to that effect. Bro, he might have done a thousand good things, but i do not belive in expunging biographical data. I try to build a comprehensice encyclopedia. If there are "objectionable" reports on say, Imam Ali, i would not oppose its inclusion in a NPOV manner.
As for "With all due respect, my friend, you can’t even read the Quran and understand it for yourself! Instead of repeating slander, go  learn something useful for your life and afterlife."
Lets not use argumentum ad hominem.
Ok, now that it is said, lets instead focus on finding a solution that keeps us all happy. Here are my questions:
*Why is the article not accurate and disputed as it is now?
*How can we solve thos problems?
For example, if you find some source that disputes this claims, we should add those sources to the article.
Thanks, and peace. --Striver 22:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Answer

message: I added a cleanup tag because (no offense) the grammar and spelling are subpar.  I am working on fixing both of those things.  I've also reformated it a bit so it is easier to read the headings etc...  I've removed the legacy section again because it is still unsourced and should not be added back until sources or references are provided.--Isotope23 13:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Further, let us that have a expertise in the area determine what must be deleted if unsourced, saying that "Shi'a do not like Abu Sufyan" demands just as little sourcing as stating "the Sun is bright". --Striver 13:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No problem. You are right in everyhitng you wrote, sorry for snapping. I get oversensitive sometimes. --Striver 18:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup tag

message: This article is listed on the NPOV backlog. Since disputed text seems to have been cleaned up and the article is well referenced, and there has been no discussion suggesting further disagreement in the last month, the tag is removed. If you disagree with this, please re-tag the disputed section with  (or the article with ) and post to Talk. -- Steve Hart 21:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV cleanup 

message: This article is wirtten in the sunni view that Abu Sufyan was became a true muslim and a great companion of the prophet and an important person of Islam. However the shia have a very negative view of him and believe that he converted only to save his life.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.40.169.206 (talk) 02:06, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shia View 

message: Calling all Wikipedia Nerds!
I am 100% sure there are lot of errors in the family tree section. Either that or the syntax/structure is simply confusing.
The reason I came to this conclusion is because:
1. Mu'awiyah is Abu Sufyan's son, yet he wasn't mentioned.
2. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not have any children from Ramlah, although they were married.
3. Abu Sufyan married Hind, and for some reason the tree indicates Hind married 'Utbah without any mention of her marriage to the main chararcter of this article, Aby Sufyan.
This section (Family Tree) needs major cleanup. Let's do the research and start cleaning.
(When I say "let's", I mean all you Wikipedia Nerds, not me. I'm lazy)
Thanks,
Goodbye.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.52.119.154 (talk) 18:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually Hind bint Utbah was not the mother of Ramlah. Abu Sufyan had multiple (five??) wives, although I don't know where to go for a nice tidy list of all of them. In fact Wikipedia would be the right place for some knowledgeable person to write one. It seems to be informally accepted that Hind was the most important of them.Petra MacDonald 21:28, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors in the family tree 

message: Here I read that Abu Sufyan had another daughter, called Huwayrah. She was wounded in the Battle_of_Yarmouk the same day when A. S. lost en eye. Can anybody check this fact? --93.32.57.103 (talk) 09:07, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Huwayrah ever known by any other name? According to Ibn Saad, the daughters of Abu Sufyan were Ramla, Umayna, Juwayriya, Umm Hakam, Hind, Sakhra and Maymuna. There is no mention of any of them fighting any battles - just lists of their mothers, husbands and children.Petra MacDonald 12:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Another daughter?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It could be very possible that Abu Sufyan was a "Crypto-Christian".
11:08, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crypto 

message: Was "Abu Sufyan" an Orthodox Christian?
08:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthodox Christian 

message: Especially since it offers a lot of background to the contention between Sunnis and Shias. Shias argue that Abu Sufyan wasn't genuine in his conversion to Islam and that him and descendants(Muawiyah and Yazid) are munafiqs. The narration goes that after Abu Sufyan's defeat he was brought to the Muhammad's tent and the following narration is accepted:
"Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul." The 'Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: "Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword." Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim." (ibn Hisham, part 4, p. 11; Chronicle of the Tabari, part 2, p. 157; Ibn Kathir, "The Prophetic Biography", part 3, p. 549, Ibn Kathir, "The Beginning and the End"; Ibn Khaldun, the rest of part 2, p. 43 and on; Al-Sira al-Halabiyya, Vol. 3. p. 18; Al-Sohaily, Al Road Al Anf, part 4, p. 90; Dr. Muhammad Sa’id Ramadan al-Buti, "Jurisprudence in Muhammad'’s Biography",7th ed., p.277) Omar Jabarin (talk) 22:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shouldn't the famous story of his conversion to Islam be included?