Talk:Pillar of Fire International

message: They certainly seem interesting and all, but I don't get the extreme presence this church has on Wikipedia, with their own category, a separate category for their three radio stations, and many articles that seem written in a promotional POV. wikipediatrix 15:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why such lavish attention to this church? 

message: I posted the following paragraph relating to the UK mission in the article, which Richard Norton deleted:
 
The Pillar of Fire Church in London was established 1904, by Alma White when she was accompanied by her two sons to conduct gospel meetings in Camberwell, South London. The mission was set up as a Charitable Trust by Deed dated 19 September 1992, and was registered as a charity in December 1992 (Charity No. 1015529). In 2002, the Charities Commission received a complaint. Following the damaging findings of an Inquiry, the UK mission lost charitable status and was removed from the register on 16 January 2003.
I have this to say:
If you are working to have the article retained, you cannot pick or choose which factual information to include in it just because it makes your church look ugly and, well, un-churchlike. The paragraph I inserted was completely factual and supported by a reference link from a very reliable source. Please do not remove it unless there is a good reason. The only reason I see is that it does not belong to your organisation as it claims it does, or if it can be refuted. If it is part of the church, I'm afraid it is fair game. If not, or if you wish to refute any of it, please supply appropriate proof. Ohconfucius 13:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I am not disputing it at all, I am not a church member or religous at all, my interest is purely geographical. My apologies. Your info must have been inserted during the time when I was reverting the deletion of the New York Times references and your additions were accidently deleted, I should have been more careful. I usually don't like reverting, but I couldn't find the references from the New York Times. Do you accept my apology? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks like my apology was not accepted, so I retract it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: United Kingdom

message: May I ask why each of this church's international Missions are given their own detailed section, and made to look bigger and more important than they are? 
Take a look at the source link for the Pillar of Fire's India Mission, for example: . This is clearly a Mission and it says so. But a Mission is no big deal. Wikipedia says that with Missions:
"Church" should be understood in the widest sense, as an organization of believers. It is not a building. Many churches start by meeting in houses."
Missions are no big deal. Lots of churches, large and tiny, do them. My parents' church has missions all over the country but when you actually go to the address, it's just some guy's apartment and regular services aren't even held. It sounds impressive on paper (and in a Wikipedia article), of course, that's show biz. But Missions are only a big deal to those who seek to make them sound like a big deal.
Given this, I will reduce the undue weight that the current writing style of the article places on these missions. wikipediatrix 14:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missions 

message: The mile-long timeline here is quite gratuitous, and there's little precedent for such timelines for Churches such as this. User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) restored it with no explanation. Given that unsourced material may be removed from any article at any time, I'd love to hear why this editor is so adamant that it stay in its current unsourced and bloated form. wikipediatrix 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: Can anyone explain why the list of alleged (unclickable) items in the "Selected coverage in the New York Times and Time" is now approaching the length of the article itself? What possible purpose does this list serve, except perhaps to puff up the article? I can find no other article about a comparable church that goes to such overzealous lengths to prove, well, whatever it is that this list is supposed to prove. My earlier queries about this have largely gone unanswered. wikipediatrix 15:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You complained there were no references after you deleted the exisitng references, now you are complaining that there are too many references. It seems you are never satisfied. You are just trolling for attention and disruption. Couldn't your time be put to better use doing useful research for Wikipedia instead of just complaining? Other complaints were that the New York Times is a local paper covering a local church. Now I am adding references from other sources, as are others. The work is being done to quell your complaints, remember there is a vote for deletion which you supported. Its now our job to add as much relevant material as possible to the article and expand it even further. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 15:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let me be more specific, then: when I said "references" I meant clickable ones, verifiable ones, and ones that were specifically attached to specific claims in the article via ref tags. wikipediatrix 15:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the references need to be verifiable. Shazbot85Talk 15:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The New York Times is verifiable. I am almost 100% certain that the New York Times really exists, I see it once in a while on a park bench. If you want ways to waste your time, why don't you use Google to find contradicting facts and use that to challange the facts presented. That would be something useful. I could use a good fact checker working for me. Its very hard to find a diligent, resourceful and intelligent fact checker. I get the feeling you haven't even done a Google search on the topic and read what you found. If I remember earlier you could not find the connection between the school and the church, despite it being the very first link that Google gave. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're completely missing the point. A good article shouldn't have to expect its readers to do further research on Google. It needs more references that are clickable ones, verifiable ones, and ones specifically attached to specific claims in the article via ref tags.  wikipediatrix 18:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am completely baffled as to the issue with references to the New York Times, when I have seen complaints that the Church is non-notable; that it's not referenced anywhere; that the references in the New York Times because they're only obituaries. I used a tool called ProQuest, which is available through my library system online and provides a fully searchable database of articles from The New York Times going back to 1851, very little of which is available in public domain internet searches. While one or two items are short mentions, most are substantial articles covered in the main section of the newspaper. I encourage any of you who have been bitching and moaning that the references are unclickable to make a genuine effort to try to obtain access to these materials, which provide a fascinating look at the Church and its leaders, including involvement with the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s. Given the focus of the New York Times on New York City and the world (and very little in between), a church in tiny Zarephath, New Jersey, 45 miles from Times Square in Midtown Manhattan, might as well be in "Arkansas, North Dakota, or New Mexico" as far as its editors were concerned. Additional items from Time magazine were added, including an obituary of Alma White that discusses the church and her work, a publication with an even more selective choice of deceased than even the New York Times. These all seem quite notable to me, who only bumped into this because of my participation in Wikiproject: New Jersey. Given that the church was at its peak some 75 years ago, the lack of Google hits is not surprising, and the fact that the percieved paucity of clickable references is used as an excuse to debase the quality of the article is a sign of extreme narrowmindedness. I find the allegations that the "list of alleged (unclickable) items" makes them any less valuable to be a demonstration of extremely poor faith (in every sense of the word) and an entirely offensive allegation. There is absolutely no requirement that sources be "clickable" to make them verifiable. Every New York Times reference has been viewed, read in its entirety, verified, and the title of the article, date and page were provided. Every issue that has been raised has been responded to. It's amazing what some people will do when they have decided that an article must be deleted, regardless of the ample, verifiable facts provided, as requested. Alansohn 19:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: References do, of course, have to be verifiable, but surely anything ever published in the New York Times can be verified, online or otherwise.  Any metropolitan or university library in the USA should have most if not all of the Times issues on microfilm, microfiche, or online, and last I checked the NYT morgue was still available for research purposes.  Lest we forget, WP:REF does not require that references be clickable, merely verifiable. RossPatterson 02:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unnecessary NYT puffery 

message: As I recall, the school affiliated itself with a completely different church on its' information page. Shazbot85Talk 18:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right. So what's up with this "Coastside Community Church" stuff? This is a church that belongs to another church? And if Coastside is the subsidiary to Pillar of Fire, where does the school figure into this?  wikipediatrix 18:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it does, I think he reads things however he wants to. Shazbot85Talk 18:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: School and church

message: This is a post that Alansohn made to my talk page . Since it contains personal attacks and insults, I've removed it and am transplanting it here where it really belongs anyway:
:I am completely baffled as to the issue with references to the New York Times, when I have seen complaints that the Church is non-notable; that it's not referenced anywhere; that the references in the New York Times because they're only obituaries. I used a tool called ProQuest, which is available through my library system online and provides a fully searchable database of articles from The New York Times going back to 1851, very little of which is available in public domain internet searches. While one or two items are short mentions, most are substantial articles covered in the main section of the newspaper. I encourage any of you who have been bitching and moaning that the references are unclickable to make a genuine effort to try to obtain access to these materials, which provide a fascinating look at the Church and its leaders, including involvement with the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s. Given the focus of the New York Times on New York City and the world (and very little in between), a church in tiny Zarephath, New Jersey, 45 miles from Times Square in Midtown Manhattan, might as well be in "Arkansas, North Dakota, or New Mexico" as far as its editors were concerned. Additional items from Time magazine were added, including an obituary of Alma White that discusses the church and her work, a publication with an even more selective choice of deceased than even the New York Times. These all seem quite notable to me, who only bumped into this because of my participation in Wikiproject: New Jersey. Given that the church was at its peak some 75 years ago, the lack of Google hits is not surprising, and the fact that the percieved paucity of clickable references is used as an excuse to debase the quality of the article is a sign of extreme narrowmindedness. I find the allegations that the "list of alleged (unclickable) items" makes them any less valuable to be a demonstration of extremely poor faith (in every sense of the word) and an entirely offensive allegation. There is absolutely no requirement that sources be "clickable" to make them verifiable. Every New York Times reference has been viewed, read in its entirety, verified, and the title of the article, date and page were provided. Every issue that has been raised has been responded to. It's amazing what some people will do when they have decided that an article must be deleted, regardless of the ample, verifiable facts provided, as requested. Alansohn 19:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You know, if you spent less time making sinister accusations about the motives of other editors, more progress might be made. Sorry you think this is all "an excuse to debase the quality of the article", blah blah blah, "extreme narrowmindedness", blah blah, "amazing what some people will do when they have decided that an article must be deleted", yeah yeah, you've got it all figured out. And after such statements, you even have the nerve to accuse anyone else of bad faith! Take a deep breath and come back and try again, only be nice. wikipediatrix 19:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am responding to your claim of a "list of alleged (unclickable) items". How is "alleged" a demonstration of good faith? I've done plenty of work to improve this article and address the many real quality control issues that existed with the article as it stood before the AfD. How is your claim-of-the-hour regarding New York Times references (that there are too few; that the references in the New York Times because they're only obituaries; they don't qualify because the church is too local; that you can't click on them; that there are too many) a demonstration of good faith? If it fails to meet genuine Wikipedia notability, POV, style guidelines (not ones you're concocting, e.g., unclickable references), please let us know in clear detail so that we can stop this process once and for all and allow other articles to get the attention they deserve. Alansohn 20:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I never said unclickable references violated style guidelines. I simply said it would be helpful if some were provided. If it seems like my complaints have changed often, it's because this article's content has changed often - that's so obvious I shouldn't even have to explain it.  When I said there were too few references, there were only three. When I said they were only obituaries, that's because, at the time, they were. When I said there were too many, that's because by then the list had bloated into its present state and still conveys very little useful information to the reader. wikipediatrix 20:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad that you're satisfied that the articles provided demonstrate notability, even if they're non-clickable. Are there any remaining concerns regarding notability, or can the article stand as it is, as far as you're concerned? Alansohn 20:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There you go again. I never said the articles provided demonstrate notability. I simply said it doesn't violate style guidelines to include them. Meanwhile, you could address my "Timeline" section earlier on this page. wikipediatrix 20:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your delete vote stated "per nom, fails to establish notability". So is there an issue regarding notability from your perspective; yes or no? If yes, state the issue so that it can be addressed. If not, please consider changing your vote. The timeline has been partially updated; more sources will be provided for each point on the timeline. Alansohn 22:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cranky messages

message: The size of the article has now doubled! --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where would it be if I hadn't put it up for deletion?! Hehe. Shazbot85Talk 03:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hooray

message: I have tried to rewrite the theology section in neutral fashion.  The long sentence is less than ideal, but I believe it's an improvement over citing the PFC's credo.  Encyclopedias have styles. Billbrock 16:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course (it ironically occurs to me post-facto), my summary of the POF creed is unsourced. Billbrock 16:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed. This version is a vast improvement over merely cut-and-pasting their tenets point by point. wikipediatrix 00:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikified theology

message: What is the point of this section?  It is overly bloated and is not a source for the article from what I can see.  Is there any real purpose in listing 20 or so articles written about a subject?  5 would establish notability... The fact that the links, and further reading section is nearly as long as the article is fairly daft.  That section should be culled down to something more reasonable and expansion to this article should take the form of actual article text.--Isotope23 15:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Selected coverage in periodicals

message: What does this mean? "was condemned by later leaders with full forgiveness requested." Were they requesting to be forgiven, or were they forgiving those that called them holy rollers. I am going to remove it because as written it looks like the information is coming from one of the references I added on holy rollers, and it clearly did not. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 08:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced additions 

message: In reading the article, nearly half of it was dedicated to the 6 year period in which the POF aligned with the KKK.  I am going to attempt to provide external reference and source material for the 40-50 years that are unrepresented from 1960s to present.  The KKK link, while interesting and historical, really is providing a skewed focus to this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter (talk • contribs) 05:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue focus on KKK 

message: When I search for "Pillar of Fire" on the Wikipedia site, the resulting description is "a religious community in Zarephath, New Jersey".  Sorry, I'm new, I don't know how to change this.  Pillar of Fire certainly has a campus at Zarephath, NJ, and it had been a community, but this description no longer applies to the organization.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dderitter (talk • contribs) 17:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pillar of fire description 

message: I think the original language was much better.  But rather than just reverting I decided to make a point about NPOV editing.   The quote "However there is no room in our hearts for racial prejudice." is inapropriate without mention of the volumes of published material to the contrary.  It's a little like singularly quoting Nixon saying "I am not a crook." Buz lightning (talk) 20:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: KKK

message: I removed two sentences from the final paragraph. The first sentence ("Even today in 2010, the organization's largest K-12 school openly descriminates against ("screens") prospective students based on the student's or their parents' religious beliefs.") is placed out of context since a Christian school by its very definition is going to be selective in what faith they allow in. This is desired by the parents sending their children there, perfectly legal (any laws dealing with religious prejudice contain explicit exemptions for religious charities/schools/non-profits/etc. to restrict membership to only those of their faith), and a common practice that isn't considered any form of religious intolerance normally. While it may be arguable that this specific instance could be a continuation of previous prejudice any conjecture along those lines would be the opinion of the authors adding it to the article and not obvious from that source.
The second sentence ("The Pillar of Fire has yet to specifically acknowledge its role in promoting the ideologies of intolerance which drove it to work with the Klan.") was removed because the preceding two paragraphs are quotes explicitly proving it wrong saying that they acknowledge their "significant association with the KKK" and "regret mistakes and bad judgement by previous generations or anyone in our membership of the past". Any further elaboration on this point (such as "They should have done more!") is the writer's opinion and therefore should not appear in the article per WP:NPOV. - DNewhall (talk) 07:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change to last paragraph 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Orland A. Wolfram. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 25#Orland A. Wolfram until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  PamD 22:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Orland A. Wolfram" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Orland Albert Wolfram. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 25#Orland Albert Wolfram until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  PamD 22:47, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Orland Albert Wolfram" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: User:Jacona, with this edit, you have added unsourced information into the article, including your outstanding claim that "the group established segregated schools into the late 20th century and were staunch racists". For information like this, you must support your additions with a reliable source that is verifiable. Additionally, you have added the word "racist" to describe the present-day denomination; you must provide a reference to say this because the present-day Pillar of Fire repudiates racism and from looking at their website, has African Americans in leadership, in addition to having missions across the world. Additionally, please think twice before you accuse a person of colour of trying to "whitewash" the article simply because your edit didn't have any source to buttress it, not to mention the fact that you confuse the word "its" with "it's". Thank you for your understanding. With regards, AnupamTalk 14:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: With that being said, I have instated a compromise here, in which I have changed the "1920s and 1930s" to "same century". I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 15:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems you are making some personal attacks on me. Please refrain from these. In your edit at Pillar of Fire, you described a change that changed "a racist Christian organization" to "a Methodist Christian denomination" with the edit caption "ce". Such a change is clearly not copyedit, but a clear change in the meaning. With these changes, and other removal of sourced content at Pillar of Fire International, where you have reverted my reversions of your contentious edits with various reasons including a claim that my changes were unsourced (The sources are already in the article, it appears you are advocating for and whitewashing the history of this organization. While they disassociated from the Ku Klux Klan in the early 20th century, the group organized segregation academies in the US in the 1950s and 1960s, and did not renounce such activities until much later. Please do not whitewash material you don't like from the encyclopedia, the encyclopedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. Jacona (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with your assertion that User:Anupam's edits "whitewash" the article, and I still think the mentions of racism are over-the-top. This is an organization that still exists, is still active, and has repudiated its connections to the KKK. Furthermore, even IF it didn't repudiate its association or its support for segregation, the "racist" label violates MOS:RACIST -- there are more encyclopedic descriptions. It's valid to discuss Pillar of Fire's historical association with the KKK or support for segregation, but it's WP:POV to label it as "racist" or portray it as continuing to hold those beliefs. --1990'sguy (talk) 17:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: They are attempting to remove any mention of segregation after the 1930s, which clearly did not happen until much later. They're also attempting to do it furtively, at least they did so in [this] edit. (I really don't mind that edit at all, but the misleading edit caption, coupled with their removal of content here raises eyebrows.)Jacona (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see that User:Anupam removed any material, but rather, he added new material that is useful. It seems you are reading too much into an edit summary. The new description in the DAB page is superior because the organization no longer promotes racism and isn't a top-defining feature. --1990'sguy (talk) 02:12, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  User:Jacona's edits