Talk:Pluto (mythology)

message: I have suggested the move to make the disambiguation page the automatic direct for "Pluto". Please add your thoughts at Talk:Pluto
The Enlightened (talk) 10:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested move of [[Pluto]] to Pluto (dwarf planet) 

message: I'm confused.  The second paragraph states that Pluto was originally Plutus, the giver of gold and silver and such.  But later on the article says that Pluto should NOT be confused with the Greek god Plutus, the god of weath.  Is this a mistake? 
David Mitchell 03:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pluto vs. Plutus 

message: Is this really a picture of Pluto/Hades? It carries the trident which is the symbol of Neptune/Poseidon. 
If the statue truly depicts Pluto I believe a note of clarification should be added, either to the talk page or to the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.188.137 (talk) 10:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the picture to another one of the same statue, that shows Pluto more clearly together with Cerberus, so it should be clear now. Yet the use of the trident is somewhat strange. I raise the question to the author of the picture at commons. --FordPrefect42 13:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In my Nymphenburg-Guide I read that the trident has been added later, originally it was a fork. Rufus46 --91.12.220.220 (talk) 15:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you, I added this to the picture's caption. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 16:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The picture of the statue at Nymphenburg Palace 

message: In light of the discussion above, I rewrote the intro. I don't have time at present to address the numerous problems here (and hope someone does soon), but will try to provide proper citations for what I did add. Sorry not to do so now, but I felt it was more important to clarify the lede with info that shouldn't be subject to challenge, than to leave it till someone took time to cite everything. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been trying to work on this, but have encountered puzzles. For instance, despite the claims that "Pluto" became the god's Latin name, so far I've seen a total of one instance when a Latin poet (Claudian, so quite late) actually uses this name instead of Dis. The references in Ennius and Cicero deal specifically with the name as a name; that is, with its meaning as equivalent to Dis, if dis means "rich." GIven that the name Pluto is used so widely later in Western literature, I had assumed Ovid used it, since he determined so much about the reception of classical mythology. But he doesn't, at least not in the whole of the Metamorphoses and Fasti, the most likely places. Vergil seems not to use it at all. I haven't found it in the extant works of Varro, either, another prime suspect — though there may still be references in the Church Fathers to uncover. It seems rather to be the case that Pluto became the preferred name of the god in the mystery religions; that seems to be how it was disseminated, according to one source, and perhaps through "Gnostic" or philosophical systems. I haven't looked at that much; it should show up in working on the Cosmogony section. But so far "Pluto" in Latin literature of the Republic and Augustan period seems to be a figment of the translator's imagination; that is, they translate "Dis" as "Pluto." Another murky aspect is the relation of the altar of Dis and Prosperina in the Campus Martius to the celebration of the Saecular Games in 249 BC, causing some scholars to assert that this represents the importation of the cult of Pluto and Persephone at that time; that is, "Dis" was invented as a translation of Plouton as Ploutos. Many scholars are themselves quite sloppy about using Pluto and Hades interchangeably, without regard to what the source text actually said; Tsagalis alone has been interested in distinguishing usage, but does offer other sources that ought to be checked. Cynwolfe (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Difficult topic but if the background's murky, it doesn't show in the article, which is bright and lucid. A great pleasure to read. Haploidavey (talk) 12:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My early impression above was mistaken in a couple of points. Vergil does use "Pluto", though so far the scholarship I've read has only pointed to the one instance in the Aeneid where he is Allecto's father. Hyginus uses the name "Pluto." I've been expecting it to turn up in Apuleius, but no scholar has directly referenced any passages in which the name Pluto is used. This has all been a surprise to me; not what I expected to find when good questions about the article were raised above and I began trying to answer them. I've seen a couple of indirect mentions in the scholarship that an alternative etymology for the name was proffered in antiquity, but haven't come upon what that might be; nor have I found an etymology of the name based on modern scientific linguistics — something the article needs. It's mostly scholars of mystery religions and philosophical systems who attempt to disentangle the names and epithets of Hades and Pluto, because Plouton was a more deliberate creation of philosophy and cult. The only major task remaining now in the article (for me, anyway) is the classical tradition: the book The Lost Girls (already referenced in the article somewhere) does a kind of roundup of the abduction myth and its dissemination in Western art and literature. It seems from that book and others I've only glanced at (fasten your seatbelt) that Chaucer introduced the figure of "Pluto" into English literature, as his chosen name for the Hades/Pluto/Dis/Orcus figure, contra his frequent source Ovid and based apparently on the one ref in Claudian, who influenced Chaucer to an extent Claudian's own reputation in our time wouldn't suggest. So the answer to the question "Why do we think Pluto was the Roman ruler of the underworld?" seems to be "Because Chaucer decided it was so."  Another surprise was that not only translators, but even scholars who produce commentaries routinely refer to "Pluto" when the Latin author never uses the name, but rather writes of "Dis." Since the consensus here is that this article must distinguish Pluto from the other deities, this confusion in the secondary sources themselves has been less than helpful. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Great plaudits to you for tackling this. It seems bruisingly difficult stuff (especially that head-on with Chaucer). I guess we must adapt consensus to suit the scholarship. Haploidavey (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I belatedly discovered that Farnell made the point about the difference between Hades and Pluto (due to the influence of the mysteries) in The Cults of the Greek States, at the turn of the 19th/20th century — a point that recent scholars such as Kevin Clinton have pressed again in the last 20 years, after it was evidently passed over by the mythology handbooks perpetrating the notion that Pluto was a "Roman" god (a supposed "fact" that is non-verifiable). I think the epigraphic discoveries of the 19th century, which contribute a great deal to this distinction, hadn't quite soaked into mainstream thought when the classic modern mythology handbooks were codified. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  intro 

message: 109.255.48.28 (talk) 14:56, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: This is all wrong

message: What about the most likely etymology:
From *plew- ('flow') +‎ *-tós ('ing'), pacem Pokorny, see the ref above? Zezen (talk) 09:19, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: This partly wrong ;)

message: Can Nox be considered a Pluto lover? They are the parents of the furies in virgil's Aeneid.
 
When she had spoken these words, fearsome, she sought the earth:
and summoned Allecto, the grief-bringer, from the house
of the Fatal Furies, from the infernal shadows: in whose
mind are sad wars, angers and deceits, and guilty crimes.
A monster, hated by her own father Pluto, hateful
to her Tartarean sisters: she assumes so many forms,
her features are so savage, she sports so many black vipers.
Juno roused her with these words, saying:
‘Grant me a favour of my own, virgin daughter of Night,
this service, so that my honour and glory are not weakened,
and give way, and the people of Aeneas cannot woo
Latinus with intermarriage, or fill the bounds of Italy.
(Aeneid 7.323 - Verg. A. 7.334 ).
"Aeneas sacrificed a black-fleeced lamb to Nox (Night) [Nyx], the mother of the Furiae [Erinyes]." , ( Aeneid 6. 250 )
Two demon fiends there are, called by the name of Furiae [Erinyes], whom darkest Nox (Night) [Nyx] brought forth at one and the SAME BIRTH with hellish Megaera, breeding all three alike with the twining coils of serpents and giving them wings like the wind .  the spawn of Nox (Night)." ( Aeneid 12. 845 - 12. 848 ff ).
please read pages 138, 167 and 294
https://people.virginia.edu/~jdk3t/AeneidTrKline2002.pdf  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorygreymon123 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pluto and Nox (Nyx), in Virgil's Aeneid. 

message: then the discussion  
Should the articles Hades and Pluto (mythology) be merged/redirected? LittleJerry (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: "Pluto and Hades are the same figure." - Like God and Allah are the same thing really? Pincrete (talk) 11:32, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Allah is about the specific Islamic view of God. Hades and Pluto are both Greek names for the same god. LittleJerry (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong.★Trekker (talk) 08:34, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

text: "the two gods are equivalents within distinct mythologies" - False. Their mythologies are identical, the Pluto article repeats the mythology of Hades. LittleJerry (talk) 12:02, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Yup Paul August ☎ 13:14, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that Hades and Pluto don't seem to be anymore distinct from each other than Dionysus and Bacchus and we don't have separate articles for them. LittleJerry (talk) 17:56, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Wasn't this discussed years ago, when I wrote the article? (Including the distinction between Bacchus and Dionysus.) Like, in a section above? I can't be responsible for what may have accreted to it in the meantime, but this is precisely why I stopped editing Wikipedia. As someone with a doctoral level of training in classical studies, I would amass reliable sources and carefully chart the distinctions, in this case the historical distinctions between the Greek deities Hades and Ploutos, the Roman deity, and the later European art and literary tradition of the deity, only to have folks who apparently have not explored either Greek and Roman religion or the Classical tradition in depth decide well, they're the same god in video games. If the sources used to compile the last version of the article that I defended are actually read, and if we do not commit Original Research by simply subbing in "Hades" for "Pluto" and deciding on our own that hey look, they're the same, then the reasons for making a distinction will be apparent. If we do not read the scholarly sources, but simply decide on the basis of impressions left by movies and YA books, then that's Original Research. Someone has added that "Pluto and Hades are the same figure." This is flatly untrue, as the article indicates. Hades, for instances, was not the deity named in Eleusinian cult; this was the god whose name has been anglicized as Pluto. I really don't know how to explain this any more clearly that I did years ago, and I don't understand why unsourced statements are being permitted in contradiction of statements that were sourced. I don't even want to look any deeper into what kind of confusion may have been introduced into the article, the whole point of which was to show that the conceptualizing of Pluto in the Eleusinian mysteries and then the later European esoteric tradition (alchemy, astrology and all that) diverged from the gloomy vagueness of the Archaic Hades.  Cynwolfe (talk) 22:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is, a good chuck of the article overlaps with Hades, such as the abduction of Persephone. Also, what makes Pluto more than an epithet. LittleJerry (talk) 22:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Comment- I agree with Cynwolfe because this merge process is based on sentences and contents of two articles, not based on reliable resources. Of course, because Roman myth was affected  Greek myth, many Greek and Roman myth can share some stories, but it doesn't mean we can merge two gods into one article. I think that problem of article Pluto is not overlapping of contents, but edits that reflect the author's personal opinion. For example, if you see the entire introduction of Pluto, it describes that Pluto's earlier name is Hades and his role is mostly same as Hades. But without any references. And the whole article is telling Hades' story, not Pluto's story with just changing the name "Hades" into "Pluto". I think this article is far away from WP:NPOV, and also suggest to rewrite the whole article. -- Wendylove (talk) 09:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge or redirect to Hades (moved from Hades talkpage) 

message: Claudian and Statius are very detailed in describing Pluto's personality, status, relationships with other gods and how underworld works! I would like to keep my edits if possible  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilgameshkarna124 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Some part of these long quotes might be worth including somewhere in the article, especially if you could find a secondary source which discusses the significance of Claudian and Statius's descriptions with respect to Pluto. I would start by trying to pare the quotes down (see WP:UNDUE), and placing them in there own section with a title something like: "In Claudian and Statius". Paul August ☎ 16:38, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think adding these long quotes from ancient sources are very helpful, especially when unsourced, and without analysis.— Diannaa (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

text: Placing the treatment of Pluto in Claudian and Statius in its own section is helpful, and the three articles you cited are useful, but the quotes are still way too long, with little or no anaylsis. Paul August ☎ 15:11, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  king of the underworld and chthonic gods  

message: Don't merge discreetly unobtrusive, and disparate historical or mythological figures. If you want to be nice, add a quote that is Greek or Latin, you know. Pierrot the stock character has a bigger page, so nothing wrong with adding relevant information. Celebrities have bigger word counts, too, it's also fine. Make the page better, or don't criticise the editors, I for one, acknowledge they have done invaluable work, bots included. Just cause you have read Percy Jackson, does not make you more of an authority. If you have passion, add a quote! Leave Pluto and Hades be. Signed - Percy Jackson's #1 fan 1.152.110.25 (talk) 06:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia has no deadline