Talk:Batman villains

message: I gotta ask: what's the point of that top paragraph?  If it was more specific about dates, that would be one thing, but as it is, it's just vague.  Not to mention repeating links that were already present in the page.  Lokicarbis 13:03, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
::The intro, provides an overview of the list; most importantly links to some of the more famous villains up front. I alphabetized the list of villains, to avoid the possibility of a hierarchy edit war, which I have seen occur at lists before. I also expect the list will grow substantially in the future and thus required a more substantial first paragraph. I was intentionally vague, because I was not sure of when all of the major villains emerged. I also assumed by the article title that this was intended to be an article rather than solely a list; which would make it a stub in need of expansion. If you only intended this to be a list when you created it, you may want to consider moving it to List of Enemies of Batman, which better meets wikipedia's naming conventions. If you decide to move the page, but don't know how please feel free to ask me or another user how to do it. -JCarriker|Talk  11:16, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
:::To be honest, I hadn't really thought about whether it should be a list or not...  since there's a category, I guess probably not.  I'm not the creator of the page as such, since I contributed very little of the content.  I'm just the guy who split it off the main Batman page when that got too long.
:::I am wondering if maybe we should list the villains in chronological order of appearance - what do you think?  Lokicarbis 13:11, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
::::That's fine with me so long as it is in a set order-- alphabetical or chronological, it will address my concerns. Ultimatley there may be so many Batmanvillains, this page itself might have to be broken into an article and a list, but we can cross that bridge when we get there.-JCarriker 13:19, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
:::::Sounds fair.  Now, where did I leave my copy of Wizard's Dark Book? :) Lokicarbis 13:22, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
::::::I'm going to put in a few more villains to flesh out the list. I'm going to add them indiviually so that you can easily see the additions in the edit history. Since the chronology hasn't been established yet, I'm going to put them in alphabetically for now and we can rearrange them latter :). -JCarriker 11:59, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
On that note, what's the point of the "History" section?  It's difficult to understand and written in a way that makes it sound like the Batman villains are in some bizarre sort of footrace to be Batman's "worst enemy."  I think the introductory paragraph and the lists would suffice.--Gillespee 18:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introductory Paragraph

message: Would it be fair use to take these thumbnails of batman covers from the onion page? here? Guttlekraw 07:13, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use? 

message: The clock king apeared in comics first, fellas, thats a basic. He was renamed for the Animaded series. but by being part of the Task Force X, he confirmed he is the same, only with a cooler name.--T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 04:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  the Clock King 

message: Isn't Ra's Al Ghul dead now, leaving his daughter Nyssa as the new Ra's Al Ghul?  Should the enemies page be updated with such info?--Gillespee 07:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ra's Al Ghul  

message: I'll soon provide sources for this:
*Matt Hatter being called the most demented (the title very debatable, but he has be called that on one of DC's bios)
*Ra's acting in a bond villain fashion.
*the riddler not reappearing from 1948 until the late 60's.
and whatever questionable afirmation anyone thinks is needing a quote. (or we can always use words like arguably, debatable, questionably, etc). If is looking opinionated I agree the prose should change. But only with better more accurate prose avoiding rudeness.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 21:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing 

message: Ok, I'm not hte syntax expert, but I sure know the Batman mythos. This prose is a reduction of mine:
::Batman's foes form one of the most distinctive rogues galleries in comics. In the 1930s and 1940s some of the most familiar Batman villains evolved. First among these is the Joker, considered by many to be Batman's number one nemesis. (considered??? does this guy even reads the comic? they say so in the comic books text, you don't need fans opinion)
::Other key villains include Catwoman, the Penguin, Two-Face, the Riddler, Scarecrow, Hugo Strange and the Mad Hatter. Other well known villains emerged in the next three decades. During the 1950s and 1960s, stalwarts Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy made their debut This is just listing in prose. This is the same:
*Other villains:
**Catwoman
**Penguin
**Two-face
**Riddler
**Scarecrow
**Hugo Strange
**Mad Hatter
*50's:
**Mr. Freeze (stealwart foe)
*60's:
**Poison Ivy (also inconditional foe)
And that's not even in cronological or any order at all!
::alongside Clayface, a resurrected one-off concept from 1940 (there are 6 resurrections, we have to be more specific).
 
::In the 1970s, new Batman villains adopt influences from horror and <S>realistic crime fiction
 (secret agent films), first with Man-Bat (unlike Batman, a real human/animal hybrid) and later with the master criminal Ra's Al Ghul and his daughter Talia, the first villains to learn Batman's identity. (very ok!!!)
::The less famous but equally charismatic Ventriloquist, KGBeast, Black Mask and Killer Croc emerged in the 1980s.(the dude forgot the *'s again for the prose listing)
 
::More common criminals, such as the Gotham mob leader Carmine Falcone were also added to the villain lineup (a minor villain with good hierarchy. He is in the lineup, but not in the recurring one...What happened with Thorne anyways, he was recurring for 2 decades and the animated series) 
::The 1990s were notorious for the introduction of the Joker's assistant, Harley Quinn (with the cartoon, and not the comic books, as source) (the cartoon?? shouldn't this say: "(who appeared first on Batman: The Animated Series"?)
::and Bane, the only villain to physically humble Batman. Hush and a new Red Hood are the most famous inductees in the 2000s, due to their connections to Batman's past (...*hush, *red hood ...and red hood I is joker and from the 80's, the phrase would be "a second Red Hood")
Other thing... At the begining this reduction by self declared deletionst Dyslexyc, didn't even got the facts right, he wrothe things as if bane and harley were from the 80's... And that was no typo! He didn't believe when I told him they were from the 90's!! That's because he ignores much DC stuff and yet, he edits deleting stuff in several DC pages; as you can verify in the middle edits of this page and here--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 22:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: T-man comments (lengthy)

message: :having consulted with an admin neither of you have any revrts left, and you dont have to revert  times anyway we could have alredy blocked both of you, but insed we want to try and thrash a conseus out Benon 22:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Benon reply

message: maybe t-man may benefit from the following links in that case
How_to_write_a_great_article
and this one has all the wiki syntax:
How_to_edit_a_page
actually i'm trying to follow this structure: wikipedia: the perfect article--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: benon

message: please please dyslexic do not try and lower the tone here i want to keep this wp:civil
:I am being perfectly civil, Benon. I just don;t see why we have to follow T-Man around.  It's like taking your dog or pet armadillo for a walk... clean up after him. Dyslexic agnostic 23:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: benon

message: having had a third opnion by someone with more knowldge of the subject, what t-mans posted is factually correct even if as pointed out by the editor in need of some copy-editing Benon 23:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  t-mans comments 

message: an editor came up with this:
Alongside Clayface, a resurrected one-off concept from 1940 (there are 6 resurrections in total).
In the 1970s, new Batman villains begin to adopt influences from horror and realistic crime fiction (secret agent films), first with Man-Bat (who unlike Batman, is a real human/animal hybrid) and the later with the master criminal Ra's Al Ghul and his daughter Talia, the first villains to learn Batman's identity. (very ok!!!)
The less famous villan, but often equally charismatic Ventriloquist, KGBeast, Black Mask and Killer Croc emerged iduring the 1980s.
More common criminals, such as the Gotham mob leader Carmine Falcone were also added to the villain lineup
The 1990s were notorious for the introduction of the Joker's assistant, Harley Quinn who appeard exclusivley in the cartoon series.
Bane, was the only villain to physically humble Batman. Hush and a new Red Hood are the most famous inductees in the 2000s, due to their connections to Batman's past
Benon 23:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At least is the POV of somebody ho actually reads the comic...not from some... well I already said this above. Cut the insults, please.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  :: Armando, you don't read the comic, you only watch the cartoon. That's why you keep insisting on Rupert Thorne's importance (when he is secondary to "Roman" Falcone and "Boss" Maroni, only gaining notoriety in the 1990s through use in B:TAS) and why you keep ignoring KGBeast as a main 1980s villain. Your edits are full of personal opinions that can't be properly sourced, use words that do not belong on a proper encyclopedic article, or are simply wrong (and when someone corrects them, you just put them back in). Specifically, I'm talking about this:
The highly developed and "colorful" profiles on many on this list is one of the elements that makes the Batman mythos so appealing.
Appealing to whom? How?
The other one, Catwoman, could be considered the "second worst enemy of Batman". While she isn't a threat to society, as most of Batman's enemies are, she's still too dangerous; and one of her most dangerous feature is being at the top of Batman's list love interests.
Dangerous? Out of all of Batman's rogues gallery, she's the only who isn't a lunatic and who doens't harbour a desire to kill Batman. Now that she knows his identity, that'll become even less an issue.
The Penguin has always been fighting for his place as one of the most insisting and recurring of the Bat-villains. Two-Face and even the Riddler (created later in 1948, but not popularized until Frank Gorshing interpretation in the later 60's on TV) have been competing as well, but the Penguin has amounted the most appearances out of three.
Competing for what? And can you provide an appearance count for either of the three characters?
Hugo Strange, as well as the Scarecrow, self proclaimed "the God of Fear",  and the Mad Hatter, said to be '"Batman's most demented enemy", might have not gotten as many appearances as the previously mentioned, but they've almost gotten as personal and influential as the Joker
If they have less appearances, and are thus less popular, how can they be as influential as the main nemesis?
The first of the unfortunate list of characters called Clayface has also been there almost from the beginning.
The first Clayface was a one-off villain. When Matt Hagen debuted, the writers resurrected a concept that had been dormant for over 20 years. 
Not as many well known villains emerged in the next three decades, but some of those became indispensable to the mythos.
Needs rephrasing. Indispensable? Why? They're just more characters. The more characters you have the more dispensable some of them are, as they won't be use in favour of other characters.
hot botanical scientist, Poison Ivy.
"Hot"? Are you sexually attracted to Ivy?
insane Mafiosi leaders Black Mask and the Ventriloquist's puppet, Scar-face, emerged in the 1980s and have shared good popularity among fans and writers ever since
Black Mask goes through periods of popularity mingled with periods of obscurity. And Scar-face is a split personality of the Ventriloquist. It's not the puppet that's a character.
Joker's own bimbo lover, Harley Quinn
First the "hot" villain, now the "bimbo" villain. What's next?
Bane was coined "the man who broke Batman" after he beat him and took the city during his break-through in best seller Knightfall.
Can we have some sales figures to back this up, please?
Ra's Al Ghul, the Riddler, the Scarecrow, Catwoman and Talia are also no strangers to Batman's identity; but they haven't acted on personal level yet.
Are you sure YOU have read the comics, Armando? Ra's al-Ghul once removed Batman's parents bodies from their graves and threatened to throw them in a Lazarus Pit. I'd say that's pretty personal. Catwoman only knows Batman's identity because he told her, and with Selina's protegé Holly taking over the Catwoman mantle it becomes a moot point. Talia invaded the Batcave and stole Batman's contingency plans to defeat the JLA, allowing Ra's al-Ghul to almost kill the group, and made the JLA lose confidence in Batman. In a final analysis, this just becomes a list turned into mangled text. As it stands, the article explains nothing about Batman's villains in any detail, which would be inappropriate anyway, as they all have their own articles, and anything important is already covered there. So my proposal is to turn this into a List article, and remove the long, cumbersome and confuse textdump. Pc13 00:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Not to come in the middle of the discussion, but as I posted above, I was wondering about the necessity of the "History" section.  We've already got a good introduction paragraph, so I guess my question is what purpose does this section serve?  It seems to just repeat information and (as I said above) makes it sound like the Batman villains are in some bizarre sort of footrace to be Batman's "worst enemy." --Gillespee 00:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: some copy-editing later

message: it is not nessasry to stoop to the level of a personal attack so please don't do, i dont want to but anymore personal attacks and i will be asking admins to impose sancations on either of you Benon 00:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Benon, it's not a personal attack to say that T-Man's edits are bad, a waste of everyone's time, and that he only knows the animated series, not the comics.  These are obvious facts. They affect our ability to edit and spend time on other important matters. Dyslexic agnostic 02:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the first 2 aren't facts but rather opinions, and it is a personal attack to say someone's edits are bad and waste everyone's time... --Pentasyllabic 03:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: '''personal attacks'''

message: there
From and editorial on Catwoman: The Visual Guide to the Femme Fatale by Scotty Beatty
Adult/High School–With images taken from the original DC Comics books, this montage spans more than 60 years of the femme fatale's career, beginning with her first appearance as "The Cat" in Batman #1. In classic DK style, each oversized spread highlights a different aspect of Catwoman's world, including family and friends, weaponry, her crimes, homes, modes of transport, her catsuit, and her on-again/off-again relationship with Batman. Also included is a six-page time line that covers, in depth, all the major events of her career. (...) Karen T. Bilton, Somerset County Library, Bridgewater, NJ 
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. 
--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 22:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: T-man, looks like you have found some good reference materials to add to Catwoman.  I encourage you to implement some of that information there... perhaps providing that level of detail in thas page is not the best idea.  (See how friendly I am being to you?) Dyslexic agnostic 23:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm relatively an "expert" on this area. I'm 100% on what I wrote, but I've been leaving the sourcing to the others. I realize I risk of deletionists if I don't do it myself.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: In the past T-man, you've often championed the cause of lists over boring prose.  I can't unsterstand why you now seem so eager to add more prose to a list article.--Gillespee 23:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There must be an intro. No more than a couple of lines per main villain. PC13, is right R Thorne, athough important, might not be fit. Only influential villains. And no more than 5 lines per villain in the list. 3 if he is a minor. That's my critteria... Please notice I'm not trying negotiate. If so I'd have started with bigger numbers of lines.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that there must be an intro, and to be honest I'm pretty happy with how the extra couple paragraphs have turned out now (though I was originally against them when I first read them.)  I was just trying to point out that there was an introduction paragraph before you added more prose to a list article.  But like I said, I'm pretty happy with it now that I've stopped to think about it more.--Gillespee 05:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: That's why we have thiferent pov's. I see this article not as a list, but as an article putting the bat-villains in context. I'll try to use adjetive to achieve that, though.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References  

message: I added him not for his importance, which now lacks, but because of symbolism. He was created in 1951 and broke the stereotype of previous villains. He had fighting skills and was not a thief. After that I recall hearing the 50s were slow, but villains strarted to have fighting skills or powers: Mr. Freeze, Clayface 2, and P Ivy.
KMoth was some sort of anti-batman, if Gordon called batman to stop crime, the mobsters called the KMoth to stop the police. There was also a Moth-mobile and Moth-signal. That's why I wrote mobsters' champion. Which is kind of a key adjetive for putting the paragraph in context but can be improved if it is not ok with the rest of you, guys.
Mr. Freeze name kind of gives away the nature of his powers. And erasing "ice themed" also makes seem more important from my opinion.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would argue that Killer Moth is not symbolic (and as you pointed out T-Man, not important) enough to make the intro (why not add info about him on his almost empty page if he's so important?)  Unlike the riddler line though which I know is much better suited to a different place than the intro, I'm not as sure.  I await group consensus.--Gillespee 05:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Killer moth 

message: *Catwoman is also considered the first femme fatale on comics. maybe we can fit that info.
*Maybe it'd be good to erase the short descriptions on the list below and leave just the names. I don't se the need for a mini-bio with a link to the actual bio. Maybe we can reduce them to a line with a theri fisical features and abilities if a reader is looking for a villain whose name don't remember.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 08:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting that you're interested in expanding the introduction while shortening the individual entries (by interesting, I mean confusing.)  As it stands, I still think the Riddler and Ra's comments are a little much for the History section (there's more about al Ghul in the History than in his list entry!)  I'm not sure about the BTAS series paragraph either.--Gillespee 13:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 things 

message: If the name is the same we'd need to see if he changed uniform on earth ii... but whatever, it's not that important.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 15:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deadshot 

message: Eliminated the challenging foe part to explein better why he is different. If someone could do that in better an less words would be nice.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 16:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ra's 

message: User talk:T-man, the Wise Scarecrow/Enemies of Batman Appearances List
But remeber: there I'm the boss until I release it here. hahaha! :P
--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's really superfluous.  I think it's unnecessary. WesleyDodds 06:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help me here: 

message: Any idea how to?--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 04:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  We need to put Arkham I context 

message: Uh, why is he considered a major enemy of Batman? He's definitely the catalyst that drove Bruce Wayne to be Batman, but he's by no means a consistent enemy, and was removed from Batman's origin post-Zero Hour.--Toffile 02:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joe Chill? 

message: By the way, is it my idea or the descriptions on the listings are getting bigger. This might come as a surprise for some, but I do think There is no need for those descriptions at all. Readers can just click on the names. For all I care we could erase the description and list the villains on tables comparing # of appearences, actors who have played/voiced them, appearences in other media, and stuff. What's the point of writting the same info twice?--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 07:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't really agree with you, Armando T.  The short summaries are useful to avoid the need to click on each villain.  They should, however, be kept to a bare minimum.  A simple list? That's not what wikipedia is, imho. Dyslexic agnostic 11:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article size

message: Well, I just scanned and skimmed through the "Batman-villains" articles in other languages which this page links to. They seem to provide some interesting information - I don't know it for sure though, since I am not capable of reading those languages, except for Spanish which I speak a smattering of. However, especially the extensive Dutch (? not quite sure which language this is, I can only read the personal name of characters, issue numbers and artists' names - however it is very detailled an mentions some crooks I've never even heard of [Dagger? Polka Dot Man?]) article contains data I reckon we should integrate into the villains-articles. So if someone is qualified to translate what our colleagues have accumulated I really think the article could draw some benefit from that.
I heard of Polka dot Man. Same name in English, but that's all I know.--T-man, the wise 15:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about augmenting the contents of foreign articles with the Batman-villians-article? 

message: Page at Picture of Joker's Reckoning 
Great picture, I labeled all the people in the picture, unfortunatly the two in the upper right eludes me.  The woman could be Lady Shiva, but looks wrong, the man really has me blank.  It's just such a great picture that the only thing missing is who is who.
The man is Ra's Al Ghul and the woman is his daughter, Talia. And you are right, the picture is great. The best thing about it is that Ross captured the attitude and feelings towards Batman of almost every villain. Batmans mind is only focused on stopping threads, the Joker is all about mocking that and testing batman's boundaries, he doesn't care what happens and he has respect for nothing. Harley & Ivy do the same but in a less personal way. That's because they hate him but also because they also feel atracted to him. They both, each one with her style (Harley is fun and sluty while PI is more like a forbiden apple), use their sensuality as part of the teasing. 
The Riddler and the Scarecrow (both Legionaries, by the way) see Batman as a challenge. The Riddler thins of Batman as his intelectual match and main rival while the Scarecrow wants to find out the inner fears that can crush Batman's sprit.
The Penguin wants him out of the picture. He wants the glory and attention for him. It doesn't show here, but to me, he is Donald Duck meets Daffy Duck, Erik Cartman and Lex Luthor. I love all the impersnations he has had so far, but my favourite is still the one by Burguess Meredith. His Penguin was all about the attention, very moody, temperamental, rude, clowny, frustrated and yet clever.
Two face is just watching. The thing about him (to me) is that, even though in the 90s there was a tendency to see him as the "second worst enemy of Batman" among the writers (mostly because of his name and I consider that stupid), he doesn't have a very personal relationship with Batman as a villain. To him Batman is sort of like the police, just doing what he does. Two-face is all about the coin, nothing personal. He probably hates Batman, but that's a business thing. He is not obsessed about the Batman that much, he only wants him out of the way like most mobsters. Mr. Freeze also see Batman as a thread to his personal affairs, so an opportunity to kill the Bat is great.
Catwoman is just watching, she is atracted to him. She wouldn't try to kill Batman, she enjoys the chase and putting obstacles in front of the bat. She doesn't mind the villains or the fight, she know he will survive this obstacle and then the game will go on. It's times like this, when Batman is busy with an obstacle, she can go steeling. Talia, on the other hand, worries about his loved one, she looks kind of impotent to help him. She is like a rose of the desert. Beautiness surviving in a tough enviroiment. His father isn't even watching, he has his mind on bigger things. He, like Catwoman knows Batman, is above that bunch of nuts just like he is. Batman doesn't like Ra's vision, that's why he is trying to take Talia apart from him.
That's the way I see every villain, I think that picture is a true portrait of all of them. That's also why batman has the best Rogues gallery, they are not only gimmicks they all have well defined personalities, attitudes and styles as well as a well defined relationship with Batman.
--T-man, the wise 02:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture work. 

message: I feel that KGBeast should become a major Bat Foe because he is every bit equal to Batman in every way...
Michael 21:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Bat Villains. 

message: So. . . this article is now the old introduction for the list.  Is there any purpose for having it here?  I don't.  Comments?Gillespee 05:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point I'd advocate redirecting the page to List of Batman villains. WesleyDodds 11:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this article accomplish anything? 

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thread_title: WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

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thread_title: C-Class rated for Comics Project