Talk:Führer

message: has reverted my diff so I wanted to discuss the use of the female version - Führerin - in the article. Regarding Hitler, I think it's perfectly appropriate to limit it to the masculine Führer, but we should at least somewhere make a note that the term refers exclusively to men, while e.g. a woman giving a guided museum tour would be a Museumsführerin, not a Museumsführer. The MOS recommends gender-neutral language where practical. This is relevant in particular for the translation of "Parteivorsitzende(r)" in the final section; in Germany, four out of eleven party chairs or co-chairs are women. I'm not sure how best to address this, so I am inviting discussion to form a consensus.-Ich (talk) 13:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide evidence from reliable sources that the feminine form is actually used in the real world. The preference for gender-neutral language is trumped (pardon the expression) by actual real-world usage.  We report what the real world does. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:32, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I do not generally oppose the mentioning of female forms, however it seemed to me to be very selective to add this here. If somebody is going to make a huge amendment and mentioning all German female forms, he or she is welcome. But I dislike this kind of being picky. And yes, Führerin is familiar in German, eg Spielführerin and Stadtführerin have zillions of hits. --Nillurcheier (talk) 15:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: What would you say to one sentence, in the "Modern German usage" section: "As a language with grammatical gender, Führer refers to a male leader; the feminine form is Führerin." and let curious folks click on the link. I adapted part of Gender neutrality in languages with grammatical gender#German as a new section in Grammatical gender in German#Professions. What do you think?-Ich (talk) 21:37, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I think being in the body is better than in the lead. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feminine forms 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:03, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Should the infobox for the political office "Führer and Reich Chancellor of the German People" as used in Nazi Germany be moved to the top (along with having the Nazism sidebar kept below it)? Should the images used in the page Führer be kept (specifically, the images for the standard of the Führer, the portrait of Hitler in the infobox, and the propaganda poster)? 
I suggest the following options to proceed:
* Option 1: Keep images, move the infobox to the top.
* Option 2: Keep images, leave infobox where it is.
* Option 3: Do not keep images, move the infobox to the top.
* Option 4: Do not keep images and leave the infobox where it is.
I request that any editors participating in this RfC include a reason for their announced support for whatever option they endorse, and further elaborate on how they wish to implement this if they wish. 129.97.125.3 (talk) 21:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: 129.97.125.3 (talk) 21:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

text: I think that inclusion of all the Nazi accoutrement is WP:Undue and a distraction.  We have lots of legitimate places to drape that shit.  7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

text: *If anyone interested in closing RfCs passes this way, I suggest that the discussion in the section above is more pertinent to the question at hand than is this RfC, and that therefore that it not be closed without taking those opinions into account, especially considering that there a clear consensus there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC on location of the infobox and inclusion of images 

message: * Comment from opening user: While I have explained my proposal in depth in the above discussion, I reiterate my support for option 1 for the following reasons:
** The term Führer is essentially always used in the context of some reference to Hitler or Nazism. 
** Though the term Führer predates Hitler's political office this is irrelevant as the page is written largely about the political office used by Hitler, and most readers coming to this page are doing so to read about his political office, not its use in compound words (which is what Wiktionary is for) or its use by some obscure figure before Hitler.
** For consistency between articles: Duce and Poglavnik are also political offices used in fascist nations, which have infoboxes kept at the top of the page and contain respective images for their political office standards and holders
** The inclusion of the standard of the Führer is relevant as that is the flag used by this political office, there is really no actual reason for removing this
** The inclusion of the portrait of Hitler in the infobox is relevant as that was the primary bearer of this political office
** The inclusion of the propaganda poster in the article is relevant as the propaganda poster clearly makes reference to the political office held by Hitler
** There is really no good reason for scrubbing the page clean of images of Hitler or the flag of the political office
:129.97.125.3 (talk) 21:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that inclusion of all the Nazi accoutrement is WP:Undue and a distraction.  We have lots of legitimate places to drape that shit.  7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

text: *If anyone interested in closing RfCs passes this way, I suggest that the discussion in the section above is more pertinent to the question at hand than is this RfC, and that therefore that it not be closed without taking those opinions into account, especially considering that there a clear consensus there. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: While I understand the concern of users like BMK as to limiting the number of Nazi-related images in this article, I believe that the inclusion of the Führerstandarte in the infobox, while not entirely vital, is harmless and does add information. The idea that the inclusion of the flag is nothing more than "accroutrement and a distraction" makes little sense, especially considering that Nazi imagery is used sparingly within the article and the standard of the political office was an important symbol used to represent the office of Führer itself.
I also oppose the view that the inclusion of a singular image is WP:Undue and somehow a "distraction", especially considering that in modern contexts the word "Führer" by itself is in both English and German sources is always used to represent the Nazi political office and not simply as "leader" or "guide".
As creating a page entirely dedicated to the word Führer, its definition and its usages on its own would be far too short to justify even being an article and has been better suited to a Wiktionary article, not a Wikipedia article. I argue then that the focus that the article places on Hitler and the usage of Führer is not undue nor is it "unnecessary weight". The article itself is not about the word itself but the title. If the article were about the word itself (which once again, Wikipedia rarely makes articles solely about words, Wiktionary is the place for that) then it could be argued that the focus on Nazi Germany is unnecessary, but that is clearly not the case here.
This is not like the case of "President" or "King" where the usage in English is diverse and could be used to represent numerous individual offices, titles and positions. The common usage of Führer in English is, and will continue to be, in reference to Hitler and a singular political office. I repeat my point once again that this article is not about the word, it is about the political office and its usages as a political title.
With that being said, the inclusion of the Führerstandarte- a political symbol of the office does not cause any harm to the article. The article does not suddenly "suck" because of another swastika, especially considering there's only 2 images in the article aside from one template image. The inclusion of a political symbol of an office is not "decoration", it is a piece of information used to inform the reader as to the symbols used by political institutions. Should we imply that the inclusion of the American presidential standard is "decoration" since it doesn't tell anything about the actual office itself? Of course not because once again, it is a political symbol used by the office to represent itself.
Even if we then continue to imply that this article is about the word itself and not about the political title (which is unambiguously used to refer to Hitler; and if it was just about the word itself it should be deleted outright), I fail to see how one could argue that the inclusion of a singular image, one which educates the viewer on the political symbolism used by the office, in a singular infobox, is harmful.
To summarize:
* I oppose the idea that the inclusion of the image is distracting and accroutrement on the grounds that images are already used sparingly in the article, and the inclusion of the standard adds educational value.
* I oppose the idea that the article adds undue weight in regards to its focus on the Nazi usage of the term
* I oppose the idea that the inclusion of the image would add undue weight
* I oppose the idea that the article should even be implied as solely referring to the word, especially considering that Wiktionary is the place for that.
* I support the inclusion of the Führerstandarte in the infobox, on the grounds that it adds educational value by including political symbols used by the office to represent itself.
TheodoresTomfooleries (talk) 02:31, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of the Führerstandarte in the infobox 

message: The redirect The Führer has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:The Führer]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]