Talk:Torbeši

message: I rewrote a lot of the wording in this article because the English used in the original article was clearly not written by a native speaker of English. Hope nobody takes offence at the neccesary changes.
--Harald84.153.32.234 00:51, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's absolutely wrong. They are a Slav Muslim minority comparable to the Bosniaks, not Albanians (who are an entirely different ethnic group). I've made this clear in the article. -- ChrisO 07:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvements in wording

message: I support merging the Torbesh article to this one because the most common name of this ethic group is Macedonian Muslims. Also, not to forget that the name Torbesh is sometimes considered pejorative. MatriX 18:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging with [[Torbesh]] 

message: Calling Muslim Macedonians a separate ethnic group from Christian Macedonians is like declaring that Christian Albanians and Muslim Albanians are two separate ethnic groups too. This makes no sense. A population infobox is only for ethnic groups - not religious groups. 72.153.53.35 22:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Christian and Muslim Albanians don't say they are different ethnic groups (quite the reverse). On the other hand, the Macedonian speaking Muslim population of Golo Brdo in Albania prefers to call itself Albanian rather than Macedonian. --Tēlex 22:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

text: They are in fact called Torbesh, and they are clearly established ethnic group (notice the difference between terms "ethnic group" and "nation"). If I say that they are ethnic group, I do not say that they are "separate" from Christian Macedonians. Ethnic group could be a sub-group of larger ethnos as well. So, try to understand this before your next removal of tables from various articles. There is absolutelly no reason why ethnic groups which are sub-groups of larger ethnos should not have tables in their articles. PANONIAN (talk) 22:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, see Pomaks and Gorani (Kosovo). --Tēlex 22:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A separate ethnic group?

message: Are they not Bosniaks? Dr. Thug 22:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosniaks 

message: For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all  infoboxes. Comments may be left here. Ling.Nut 22:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "related groups" info removed from infobox 

message: Do they really consider themselves a separate ethnicity, or consider themselves rather simply Macedonians? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't they consider themselves Albanians (to an extent)? They write "Albanian" on the census, and it is considered more "appropriate" for them to marry into Albanian (or Romani) families. This could be explained by the religion, but it could be for some other reason. BalkanFever 10:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then the article needs further clarification... --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic affiliation 

message: Does anyone wish to talk about their identification as turks? the municipality of centar zupa is primarily populated with torbesi but the overwhelming statistical majority are turks! PMK1 (talk) 06:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish identification 

message: There are at least 40,000 (unreferenced)Macedonian Muslims in Macedonia, at least 80,000 in Albania, but the total pop. is only 40,000??? Am I missing something here?? --Bruka (talk) 12:01, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers don't add up 

message: If we are to name an article "Macedonian Muslims" it should refer to the Muslims of the entire region, including the more populous Vallahades and Pomaks. This article should be named "Muslims in the Republic of Macedonia" or "Torbeši".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antondimak (talk • contribs) 09:02, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: It dont have only Torbesh people in Macedonia, also it have in Kosovo but the Torbesh there are Ethnic Bosniaks all Torbesh are Ethnic Bosniaks !  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.154.12.27 (talk) 17:40, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved to Torbeši. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 22:37, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Macedonian Muslims →  – The Torbesh are a Slavic-speaking Muslim community in the Republic of North Macedonia. The Torbesh are a distinct group which speaks one of the Slavic dialects of Macedonia. The title Macedonian Muslims is based on the assumption that the Torbesh identify themselves as Macedonians in terms of ethnicity and/or national identity, but most don't do so and quite tellingly only half of ethnic Macedonians would consider them to be Macedonians (Damjanovski 2021). In the 2021 census, most Torbesh didn't declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians who follow Islam but either registered themselves in the category "Other" or depending on the municipality as Turks or Albanians. The article should have the title Torbesh which is the most accepted name used in bibliography to refer to them as it reflects their endonym without any reference to particular competing national identities which a majority of them have chosen to not adopt.
*Damjanovski, Ivan (2021) Old Communities and New Controversies: the community of Macedonian-speaking Muslims between ethnicity and religion, Political Thought 62:  Maleschreiber (talk) 23:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

text: I don't see how what you wrote differs from my argument. The key point is this community doesn't consider itself to be Macedonian Muslim, hence the article shouldn't be titled as something which they don't consider themselves to be.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:47, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Macedonian Muslims, by definition, consider themselves to be ethnic Macedonians. It's really as simple as that. Torbeš is a term sometimes used to refer to these people as the article already states. That's it. --Local hero talk 00:20, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This community doesn't consider or register itself as Macedonian Muslim. If the article was about Macedonian Muslims as a distinct community, then most of its content would have been removed because the people which it describes as "Macedonian Muslims" don't consider themselves to be Macedonians e.g. the statement  is false. In Plasnica Municipality, where almost everyone is Slavic-speaking and Muslim, almost all registered themselves as ethnic Turks. Hence the article needs another title - one which describes reality as it is.--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So the scope of this article is Macedonian-speaking Muslims, whose ethnic identity varies, and you think that the current title incorrectly suggests their ethnic identity is Macedonian only. That's valid and I see most of the articles in other languages use Torbeš as the title. I would suggest "Torbeš" not "Torbesh" since it aligns with the usual Macedonian transliteration on Wikipedia. "Macedonian-speaking Muslims" is another option since Torbeš is considered pejorative. --Local hero talk 16:41, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the scope is the community based on its internal identity independently of other identities which have been used by its members. A similar article are the Gorani, who call themselves Gorani but have also identified as Turks, Muslims, Serbs, Albanians and lately as Bosniaks in the public sphere. I chose the transliteration Torbesh because this is what Macedonian authors seems to be using in recent bibliography, but if there's evidence for the opposite I don't mind changing the RM. In this case, wouldn't Torbeši (plural) be more accurate?--Maleschreiber (talk) 05:23, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree the plural -i is needed. As for transliteration of Torbesh vs. Torbeš, I find the latter in many recent sources in a quick search (ex1, ex2, ex3), though there are also many for -sh. Again, I prefer -š for consistency with how Macedonian transliteration is done on WP. --Local hero talk 04:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

text:  I have changed the RM accordingly.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

text: Support move. I would be ok with either Torbesh or Torbeš.Alltan (talk) 00:07, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  But they're not edge cases because most Torbeshi don't identify themselves as Macedonian Muslims or Albanians or any neighbouring national identity for that matter. For multiple reasons, they either choose their own ethnonym or identify as Turks.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 17 April 2023