Talk:René-Robert Cavelier, Sieur de La Salle

message: Thanks for the article... what's this sentence supposed to be?:
"On the advice of Joliet, they went on to Sault Ste. Marie in an unsuccessful Potawatomis."
krc 03:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing Sentence 

message: The last paragraph in the "First Expedition" section and the "Fort Frontenac" section are identical. I am deleting the second paragraph of the First Expedition section. I admit this does not really add much to the article, but duplication of this type looks highly unprofessional.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.226.144.109 (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up 

message: Fort St. Louis was not located at today's Victoria, Texas. It was in Victoria county, Texas, southeast of Victoria, south of Inez, on Garcitas Creek, on a private ranch. The site has been excavated and determined precisely. Among many resources, see http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/stlouis/index.html. The Handbook of Texas article cited on the page, in print and online, is badly out of date and should not be used as a reference. See also Weddle, The Wreck of the Belle, the Ruin of LaSalle
Gjmokcb (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Gjmokcb, 30 September 2010 

message: Sorry. I'll speak slowly. 
(1) In second paragraph beneath subhead "final expeditions," delete "later the location of Victoria, Texas." Replace with "on Garcitas Creek in Victoria County, Texas."
(2) Delete footnote 9. Replace with "Texas Beyond History: Fort St. Louis," link is http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/stlouis/index.html
(3) Add external link to "Texas Beyond History: Fort St. Louis" at http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/stlouis/index.html
(4) Consider deleting external link to Handbook of Texas Online--the article is badly out of date.
Gjmokcb (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Partly done: Request 1 done. Requests 2-4 seem to have been superseded by yourself in your later request. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 01:50, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Gjmokcb, 30 September 2010 

message: Instead of deleting the reference to "Handbook of Texas Online" in note 9 and in external links, replace the existing (out of date) link with a link to this "replacement" article under the title "La Salle's Texas Settlement": http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/LL/uel7.html
THUSLY:
Footnote 9 should read: "The Handbook of Texas Online: La Salle's Texas Settlement" and the link should be http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/LL/uel7.html
The external link to "The Handbook of Texas Online: Renê Robert Cavelier Sieur de La Salle" should be deleted and replaced with "The Handbook of Texas Online: La Salle's Texas Settlement, linked to http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/LL/uel7.html
Gjmokcb (talk) 16:52, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 01:45, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Gjmokcb, 30 September 2010 

message: The word "cavelier" is an alternate spelling that was used in Normandy for the French word "cavalier". "Cavalier" means horse rider and never meant knight... So I removed that mention JidGom (talk) 12:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think so. Cavalier is a French word borrowed from Occitan cavalièr "knight", that replaced the word chevalier, step by step in different meanings, so the corresponding French word is chevalier and in Norman Quevalier / chevalier too. The surname Cavelier has another etymology "bartender", "innkeeper", "bar manager", it derives from Old Norman and Old Picard cavel " bar", "inn", "tavern". Nortmannus (talk) 10:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cavelier meaning 

message: The source about Cavelier de La Salle’s marital status is incorrect and can be found here (http://www.archive.org/details/dcouverteett02marg). The source in question is a letter written to a business associate 7 years before the death of de La Salle, and is therefore not a historical record of whether or not he married. 
The reason he denies marriage is likely for business purposes. On page 88, he says that he has heard his associate was concerned about rumours of his marriage. De La Salle then says he will not pursue marriage until he is relinquished from his duties and that he finds it strange he must confirm something that is so obvious.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdela06 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage 

message: The content in this article is in conflict with La Salle Expeditions.  Which is correct?  RedJ 17 (talk) 23:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The La Salle Expeditions article has been merged here, and the page now redirects here. La Salle learned about the Ohio River from the Seneca, whose territory extends into northeastern and eastern Ohio as well as the upper Ohio/Allegheny valley (Parkman, 1869). The Mohawk factoid is uncited, and ostensibly wrong. Sbalfour (talk) 00:02, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Conflicts with [[La Salle Expeditions]]

message: I was recently in Victoria at the Coastal Bend Museum where numerous artifacts from the Belle (including 8 cannon) are on display. According to the museum's exhibits about Fort St Louis, all five of the kidnapped children were eventually recovered by the Spanish. I can't remember details enough to fix the article, but all but one was from the same family, and all but one were boys.  Some of those children actually grew up to have careers in the Spanish military.
Sorry I don't remember more. All I can tell you is all but one boy were children of the same woman who gave birth during the voyage to North America. If you can find her name you can probably backtrack enough to expand and fix that section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.200.165.112 (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is a biography of one man, and essentially ends with his death. Such info would belong in an article about Navasota, Texas#History, or French colonization of Texas, not here. Sbalfour (talk) 17:05, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final Expedition, Paragraph 4 

message: Spelling Issue: Niagua to Nicaragua.
Typoseerock (talk) 02:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 25 April 2013 

message: In 1682 he departed from present-day Fort Wayne with 18 Indians and canoed down the Mississippi River.
:— Since Fort Wayne, Ind., is about 200 miles east of the Mississippi, there seems to be something missing here. Sca (talk) 14:24, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It was Fort Crevecoeur in Illinois. Fixed. Although the number in his company seema disputed. Rmhermen (talk) 19:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, Fort Crevecoeur burned to the ground in April, 1680.  He bivouaced at Fort Miami on the way, but this expedition really started at Fort Frontenac on the east side of Lake Ontario. Sbalfour (talk) 17:10, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Fort Wayne

message: I find the long name rather confusing. What does Sieur de La Salle mean? Derek Andrews (talk) 18:18, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sieur is a title used in many French names of the period. Basically a title of respect. See http://www.yourdictionary.com/sieur. -- BC  talk to me 19:40, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done - see etymology section Sieur de La Salle.  Sbalfour (talk) 15:48, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title needs explanation 

message: Substituted at 04:10, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We do try to make the encyclopedia accessible to a general audience. Much of the encyclopedia would require at least a middle school level of reading, however, and some articles are difficult to read even with a post-graduate college degree. To fix something, I need more specific information, like what section and paragraph are not understandable. Sbalfour (talk) 17:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Under the heading legacy, on approximately the third line, a space needs to be added to LaSalle's to make it La Salle's. 45.36.59.193 (talk) 01:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: . I also corrected this same mistake in the caption on a nearby photo of a statue of La Salle. I didn't correct any further uses of LaSalle because they all appear to be proper names but of separate places and things from the explorer. This was a good catch; thank you for taking the time to work on this. City</span>]]OfSilver 01:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2017 

message: According to LaSalle (automobile), that 1930s General Motors car was named for René-Robert de La Salle. This could be mentioned in the legacy section. Sca (talk) 15:07, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This assertion is flagged as "Citation needed" in the car article, so we would run into the same problem here. So, find the reliable source and you can add the mention.-- BC  talk to me 19:26, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I now see it's already mentioned in the list of places and things named for him. Sca (talk) 14:43, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: LaSalle auto

message: The text says: In 1682 he departed Fort Crevecoeur with a group of Frenchmen and Indians and canoed down the Mississippi River  There's everything wrong with that sentence.  Fort Crevecoeur burned to the ground in April, 1680 and wasn't rebuilt until 1691.  Its location is 210 miles northeast of the Mississippi River on another river - you can't just canoe down the Mississippi river directly from there.  La Salle was already on the Mississippi River in 1682; it's a few months journey from the vicinity of Lake Michigan to the river, so he couldn't have started the expedition in 1682.  Actually, in the fall of 1681, La Salle was in Fort Frontenac - that's a long way from Fort Crevecoeur (even though that's not on the expedition).  The citation for that passage failed verification.  Scholarship... ouch.  Sbalfour (talk) 15:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing out inaccuracies. Feel free to make any referenced/cited appropriate changes. Cheers.-- BC  talk to me 18:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blunders 

message: External links are supposed to be "official" websites sponsoring content related to the article.  Government. museum or university history websites for example, in this case.  I don't think any of the existing links are entirely appropriate. At least they're not blatently promotional.  If they contain useful material, it should be integrated into the article and cited, so the links become references.  If not, then delete the links.  Sbalfour (talk) 18:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: This is quite lengthy, similar to place names for Wayne (Gen. "Mad" Anthony Wayne).  There are two such places in my city not on the list.  There may be many dozens or even hundreds of such places not listed. Worse, none of them stand out, not like President Washington, Washington, DC, and State of Washington.  And there's another famous La Salle, so are we quite certain all those places are names for Rene-Robert Cavelier?  This has become a "me, too" list and needs to be managed or trimmed somehow.  Sbalfour (talk) 19:45, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I've deleted a statue, an elementary school, a neighborhood, and a college dormitory(?).  I think the criteria to make the list should be: the item must have a wikipedia article, or be cited as a memorial to La Salle in a printed scholarly publication like a history or geography book. That'd cut about half the list right now.  There's still dozens of places not on the list but meet the criteria - it'd get out of hand even so.  For other than counties and cities, specifying that a city must be larger than 150,000 persons for a street, building, park or anything else there to be notable enough to make this kind of list, would also trim the current list by half.
The list is 1)towns and other political entities; 2)parks; 3)streets; 4)schools & other buildings; 5)objects; in just about that order of significance.  Maybe we need to cut the list somewhere in the 'streets' category - i.e., for a street to make the list, it should be generally known outside the neighborhood of the street.  There's just too many schools, buildings, businesses, museums, etc named La Salle to list here. Sbalfour (talk) 21:49, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of place and object names 

message: The lead is little more than a dictionary definition.  It should be an overview of his life.  Here's my take:
Rene-Robert Cavelier, Sieur de La Salle, usually shortened to 'La Salle', (November 22, 1643 – March 19, 1687) was a 17th century French explorer and fur trader in North America. He was born in 1643 in Rouen, France of a wealthy family and studied to be a Jesuit missionary. After failing as a Jesuit, La Salle came to Ville-Marie (the current site of Montreal) in the Canada colony of New France in 1666 where he established a land grant settlement, Lachine.  
In 1669, he sold his land holdings to finance an expedition to find a river the Iroquois said led cross country to a great sea, the fabled Northwest Passage. The historical record of the expedition was lost, but the evidence does not indicate La Salle made it beyond the land of the Senecas around Lake Erie. In 1679-80 during expeditions to the lower Great Lakes, he built a series of short lived forts and a ship, Le Griffon, which sank on its maiden voyage, in an abortive attempt to establish a fur trading network. 
In 1682, in the expedition for which he is famous, starting from Fort Frontenac on the St. Lawrence Seaway, he circumnavigated the Great Lakes by canoe to Fort Miamis at the mouth of the Miami River (now St. Joseph River) on Lake Michigan, thence across the lake and up the Chicago river, portaged to the Illinois River and down that river to the Mississippi River finally arriving at the Gulf of Mexico, claiming the Mississippi River basin for France.  
He thence returned to France to equip a fleet to establish a colony at the mouth of the Mississippi. In 1685, the fleet crossed the Atlantic; La Salle mis-navigated, missed the mouth of the Mississippi on the Gulf Coast and after losing most of the fleet, landed on the lower southeast coast of Texas. After establishing a small colony and several forays inland to locate the Mississippi, he was murdered by his own men in 1687. The colony was later lost to the Indians.  
La Salle's legacy was the discovery of a water route from the St. Lawrence Seaway to the southern coast facilitating trade and domination of New France over the territory east of the Mississippi. It was the end result of the search for the Northwest Passage. With respect to the oft-made claim that La Salle was the first European to see the Ohio River and sometimes the Mississippi River, it is certain that Joliet and Marquette preceded him to the Mississippi in 1673-74, and history does not record that La Salle ever set foot in the Ohio Valley. 
Heck, that's a more informative and succinct narrative than the whole article. Sbalfour (talk) 23:51, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  new lead 

message: The text says: La Salle's major legacy was establishing the network of forts from Fort Frontenac to outposts along the Great Lakes, Illinois and Mississippi rivers that came to define French territorial, diplomatic and commercial policy for almost a century..., Not one of his 7 forts survived past 1688. A couple were replaced later, sometimes much later, with new forts with different names at the same or nearby locations but saying La Salle's legacy was this abortive string of forts is revisionist history.  And anyway, the forts were built in 1679-80, and New France surrendered to Britain in 1760, so it was 80 years, and that's not generally a century...
The text says: His efforts to encompass modern-day Ontario and the eight American states that border the Great Lakes became a foundational effort in defining the Great Lakes region. That statement is as expansive as it is meaningless. There's no evidence La Salle was ever in Minnesota, Ohio or Pennsylvania (and he was only on the border of Wisconsin, once).  I'm not sure what 'foundational effort' is - minus New York and Pennsylvania, those states became the Northwest Territory a century later but they remained the wilderness of Ohio Country and Illinois Country for that century, so geopolitically, his expeditions were naught. His chief contribution was ostensibly hydrography and cartography of the Great Lakes and Mississippi basin areas.
After splitting out the cluttery place names and modern salvage operations, then deleting vague puffery, there's little of substance left here. So let's try again:
La Salle's main historical contribution was pioneering a water route from the St. Lawrence Seaway in the northeast to the southern coast, the practical outcome of the search for the fabled Northwest Passage.  This later provided a trade and export route between the French colonies in Quebec and the south (i.e. New Orleans in 1718), extending nominal French domination over the Mississippi Valley as least east of the river.  He also added considerably to colonial knowledge of the hydrography and cartography of the lower Great Lakes region. Geopolitically, his fur trading established a long lasting French-Indian alliance that held the Iroquois threat as well as British influence and settlement at bay until the mid-18th century. And he contributed obliquely the name of the Territory and State of Louisiana for King Louis XIV.
I think that's fair, not voluble, and rather more to the point than what's there. His forts didn't survive his death, and played no role in what follows. And actually establishing a fur trading network was left to others. Sbalfour (talk) 23:36, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: The article lacked any mention whatsoever of this expedition undertaken in July 1669-1670.  It is one of two things he is known for: traversing the Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico, and the debate about whether he shall be credited with discovering the Ohio River.  So I added a section heading for it, and didn't want to leave an empty section or some yahoo might come along and delete it, so I filled in a few factoids using Parkman (1869) as the authority.  Now I'm going to make a scholarly and complete exposition of the "lost" expedition, but sandbox it before publishing it. It starts 10 years before any of the forts or ships were built (excepting Frontenac in 1673), and before his extensive fur trading network was established, so there was nothing out there.  Joliet and Marquette had already mapped some of the upper Great Lakes area.
In early 1669, La Salle had sold his Signeurial grant at La Chine to finance the expedition.
Sbalfour (talk) 21:36, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ohio expedition 

message: ~~
La Salle claimed the Missippi River in 1684. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.54.218.17 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Source?-- BC  talk to me 22:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. NiciVampireHeart 07:48, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2019 

message: i want to add some more detalles about is expeditions 159.191.130.254 (talk) 18:46, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideautalk 18:49, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2019 

message: I will like to add more info to this. 135.0.102.159 (talk) 13:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2019 

message: Do you think seized should be changed to ceased or deceased? Tacovolcanoes123 (talk) 17:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: "Seized with a fever" is a valid, if archaic, way of saying "developed a fever". It is used correctly here. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:30, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 19 December 2019 

message: he had one child 71.230.125.27 (talk) 15:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: . It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2020 

message: Although I find "the existing historical evidence does not indicate that La Salle ever reached the Ohio/Allegheny Valley", that area would still be part of LaSalle's claim of the Mississippi, because the Ohio empties into the Mississippi.  Right?
This helped lead to French and Indian War, because pushing west in Pennsylvania would have come into conflict with that French claim. Carlm0404 (talk) 01:03, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still part of the claim for France 

message: The Education system in the 1650s 174.193.85.235 (talk) 22:47, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There weren't established educational institutions in New France in the 1670's - it was mostly wilderness. What do you intend here? If you are unable to edit the article, put some text here. The primary criteria is that you have a WP:RS. Sbalfour (talk) 23:07, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education 

message: The text insinuates that there were no survivors. There were 15 known (some unnamed) survivors in 1690: 6 made it back to France, 2 left journals, 4 had roles in later Texas and New Mexico settlement; 4 children were later rescued from the Indians by the Spanish, among other documented events. The text that Tonti found no survivors is true but deceptive: the survivors were prisoners of the Indians or had fled north. 50.53.40.217 (talk) 16:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fate of the Texas colony 

message: Underneath "Place Names" - Cities and Towns
In the city of Niagara Falls, NY - LaSalle is the name of a the entire East section of town; between the boundaries East/West of 47th and 102nd street, and North/West boundaries of Buffalo Ave. & Niagara Falls Boulevard
*Also
Underneath "Parks and Streets"
LaSalle Avenue in Niagara Falls, NY begins at 11th Street and runs all the way to Hyde Park Boulevard.Resident - First hand knowledge 2600:1017:B102:424A:B4C4:5A21:FD32:E8C9 (talk) 13:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2023 

message: Please change the link to Fort Saint-Louis (Texas) in the third paragraph under "Mississippi expedition" to just Fort St. Louis, as it mentions the Fort St Louis at Starved Rock which was in Illinois, not Texas, (a fort Saint-Louis there would be founded later in 1685).
 Reynard1300 (talk) 03:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2024