Talk:Heaven Lake/Archive 1

message: Just thought I'd mention these images from Wikimedia Commons:  Baitou Mountain Tianchi.jpg, Paektu-san.jpg (see right).
Although at present I'm afraid this article isn't really big enough to support more than one image.-- Visviva 06:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Update:  I have removed :Image:Tianshan tianchi.jpg, which depicts the lake of the same name in Xinjiang. It was needlessly confusing.  Once a Tianchi (Xinjiang) article is created, please put the picture there.  -- Visviva 11:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternate image

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
* Support for the most common name. Searches for "Chonji" for all the most popular search engines combined give less than a thousand hits. Search on Google scholar shows only 2 uses of the name "Chonji" for the lake. The use of Chonji as a clear common name doesn't apply because it's not common.--Yuje 20:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Before arguing on whether Google searches are important or not:
People, other than the question of whether Chonji/Tianchi is better for the title, we have the situation where there is another Tianchi article for the one in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. My current concern, is what are we going to do about this?
My opinion is that since we now have another article for the more widely known Tianchi, I say that we just leave Chonji alone now. It seems to me that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision) is more relevant than Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names).  To my knowledge, the Korean name is unambiguous (meaning that there isn’t any other Choenji/Chonji, unlike Tianchi), and is therefore preferable. Unless we’re going to argue to go against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision), we seem to have a conclusion.
Any other opinions?
--General Tiger 12:20, 8 October 2006  (UTC)
:I don't agree that Chonji is an unambiguous name. If you actually went and searched for "Chonji", the most likely results you would get would be Taekwando-related material. For this reason, I don't feel that Chonji is neccessarily superior in being unambiguous. If we're all debating about precision and ambiguity, then I propose that both Tianchi and Chonji be disambiguiation pages, Tianchi to disambiguate the various lakes, and Chonji for Taekwando and the lake. --Yuje 01:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tianchi, theres an article on it if you type in the exact words on the search bar. Its an article about the lake in a place called "Urumqi" which I have already mentioned of the unclearness. Good friend100 14:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It even says that the name refers to "several lakes in China and Taiwan". Good friend100 14:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Your choice of words is striking.  Such careful, well-balanced sentences; it reminds of something I've read somewhere.  ... ;-) -- Visviva 14:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, if you are complimenting me, I suppose you are linking this article with the Baekdusan article. Good friend100 15:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: First of all, "Tianchi" has way too many other names. There is a Tianchi lake in a place called Urumqi, there is a person named Liu Tianchi, and there is another person named Zhao Tianchi, all of which come out on searches.. Good friend100 01:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Red herring. Such pages would be located at Liu Tianchi, not Tianchi, and have nothing to do with disambiguation. Or do we put George Washington's page at George now?--Yuje 01:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Now we have two Tianchi articles. 

message: Could an admin move this article back to Chonji so that all the links work. There was a discussion and vote above, but one user just moved it without any discussion. BAmonster 06:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The result of the vote above was no move. We should use the most common name which is Tianchi. LionheartX
Exactly, no move from Chonji to Tianchi. Do not change unless there is a change of consensus. BAmonster 06:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It was originally titled Tianchi. There was never consensus to move it to Chonji. The status quo before the move should be restored until disagreements are settled. LionheartX
Look above. The vote was to keep Chonji, and against moving to Tianchi. Disagreements were settled. BAmonster 07:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Read the discussion above. The page was originally at Tianchi but unilaterally moved to Chonji without consensus. The vote should be about moving it to Chonji rather than vice versa. LionheartX
The consensus is to keep it at Chonji. Don't play games. BAmonster 07:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The vote was conducted improperly. Please refrain from personal attacks. LionheartX
Your moves are conducted improperly. Stop vandalizing my user page. BAmonster 07:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The tag says suspected sockpuppet. You are not allowed to remove the notice until you are cleared of sockpuppetry. LionheartX
Clear away. BAmonster 08:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Tianchi]]/[[Chonji]]

message: #Oppose. Can confuse readers. Good friend100 03:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lake Chon

message: * support per most common usage, as measured by google.  Regards, Ben Aveling 08:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Strictly, searching for "Tianchi Lake" -"tianchi lake monster" is more like 10,000 hits, but that's still a lot.  Regards, Ben Aveling 18:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't believe these "I can't believe"rs at all. Can't you all see that something very wrong when you are naming a lake in Chinese that is located at the peak a mountain named in Korean? (Wikimachine 21:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As mentioned above in the arguments, there is quite likely a case to move the mountain name as well.  Besides that, you could easily make a similar statement--a monster named in Chinese in a lake named in Korean.  That being said, there isn't a contradiction at all if the world is more interested in the lake (perhaps because of the monster) than the mountain.  Besides, we can always explore the issue of potentially renaming the mountain at a different point in time.  —LactoseTIT 03:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True. But only renaming of the mountain gives access to the renaming of the lake & the monster has nothing to do w/ the lake b/c it's mainly a Chinese media phenomenon. And, currently... the renaming of Mount Baekdu is 100% Oppose. (Wikimachine 18:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tianchi Lake

message: "Tianchi Lake"        	948	
"Tianchi Lake" -Urumqi	631	"-Urumqi" also excludes "Ürümqi"
"Lake Tianchi"        	481	
"Lake Tianchi" -Urumqi	303	
Tianchi Korea         	967	
Chonji                	264	"lake" added to exclude non-lake-related pages
Cheonji               	134	"lake" added to exclude non-lake-related pages
Ch'ŏnji               	7  	
Here are the results of a few Internet searches. The greatest number I got was below 1,000, so any search receiving more than that was probably misleading (one must search English-language pages only and exclude Wikipedia and its mirrors). "Tianchi" would seem to be more widely used than "Chonji" (and related spellings), although the fact that "Ch[e]onji" is used for other topics as well as the lake complicates matters (see, for example, here and here). (The fact that there are more Chinese websites than North Korean ones also weakens this result.) It does, however, look like the most commonly-used name for the lake in English is "Tianchi Lake" (the language that this derives from is irrelevant, especially since the lake straddles the border; if the lake were most widely known in English by a Swahili name, we would use that). However, this brings up problems of disambiguation with Tianchi (the one near Ürümqi). I'm beginning to think that the best solution might be to merge this article into Baekdu Mountain, have redirects at Tianchi Lake (categorised in :Category:Lakes of China) and Cheonji Lake (categorised in :Category:Lakes of Korea), and avoid the whole debate. --Stemonitis 14:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Urumqi is not the only other Tianchi. See http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9%E6%B1%A0 There are at least six possible meanings. Also, some publication use style guidelines that separate -ji with a hyphen or a space, so you should include those in Googling, since it's the same name under different style guidelines. It might also be described as a caldera or a pond (see definition of ji), so not have the word "lake". Since we're talking about a few hundred difference, these details can matter a lot. It's hopeless to rely on Google, really, and the people that relied on Google searches need to explain and modify their evidence, or their votes are meaningless. BAmonster 16:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Stemonitis, this article is not very long and could be easily incorporated into Baekdu Mountain and solve this dispute. Good friend100 18:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree completely. There is no reason to limit development of an article for a topic/subject by incorporating it into a larger article just to avoid the risk of having disputes. When I see that Cheonji Lake is in Mt. Baekdu, which is widely called Mt. Baekdu & is located in North Korea, I won't take any concessions. Just debate logically with me & see where we head. (Wikimachine 22:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A brief foray into the Internet

message: The way the two previous Google search results were conducted is ridiculous & seriously flawed. 
====Revised Search Results w/ NO Similar Pages====
*Chonji:489
*Lake Chonji:337
*Cheonji:162
*Lake Cheonji:121
*Tianchi:723
*Lake Tianchi:702
*Tianji:711
*Lake Tianji:398
The result shows that there is no big size difference between 500-350-150-100 range for Cheonji variations & 700-700-700-400 range for Tianchi variations. This is pretty minor & should be overrided for other concerns. However, if you still insist on Google search, let me set up a very accurate way of ascertaining the # of sites that actually talk about this lake -using statistics. Only by using statistics can we know the exact number of sites that actually talk about the lake. (Wikimachine 16:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More Accuate Google Search Analysis

message: *Chonji:489
*Lake Chonji:337
*Cheonji:162
*Lake Cheonji:121
*Tianchi:723
*Lake Tianchi:702
*Tianji:711
*Lake Tianji:398
The result shows that there is no big size difference between 500-350-150-100 range for Cheonji variations & 700-700-700-400 range for Tianchi variations. This is pretty minor & should be overrided for other concerns. However, if you still insist on Google search, let me set up a very accurate way of ascertaining the # of sites that actually talk about this lake -using statistics. Only by using statistics can we know the exact number of sites that actually talk about the lake. (Wikimachine 16:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revised Search Results w/ NO Similar Pages

message: *Procedures:
:*Designate SRS of sites n>0.1N
::*randInt (1,481,98)-->A
::*randInt (1,337,68)-->B
::*randInt (1,162,34)-->C
::*randInt (1,121,26)-->D
::*randInt (1,723,146)-->E
::*randInt (1,702,142)-->F
::*randInt (1,711,144)-->G
::*randInt (1,398,80)-->H
:*Apply SortA( to all of the lists.
:*Identify the sites as either related or non-related.
::*L1
:::*Yes: 117, 178, 251, 251, 273, 273, 319, 319, 324, 435, 
:::*No: 2, 10, 22, 24, 30, 50, 50, 51, 65, 76, 77, 89, 95, 103, 110, 115, 125, 127, 135, 136, 148, 149, 149, 159, 197, 202, 205, 222, 225, 231, 233, 234, 235, 235, 236, 247, 271, 281, 309, 325, 326, 328, 328, 329, 330, 337, 347, 348, 355, 367, 368, 373, 382, 386, 387, 389, 390, 394, 396, 397, 399,  401, 402, 405, 408, 415, 415, 428, 428, 433, 433, 437, 444, 447, 447, 447, 450, 450, 451, 452, 457, 457, 462, 469, 474, 478, 487, 489
::*L2
:::*Yes: 332, 332, 296, 262, 160, 138, 83, 73, 66, 49, 30, 18, 16, 6, 4, 2
:::*No: 335, 330, 311, 288, 281, 275, 267, 263, 259, 254, 242, 236, 234, 232, 229, 213, 205, 203, 200, 197, 193, 184, 182, 179, 177, 177, 176, 175, 173, 170, 164, 162, 151, 148, 146, 136, 134, 122, 115, 111, 105, 102, 102, 101, 96, 87, 75, 62, 60, 47, 42
::*L3
:::*Yes: 97, 97, 75, 73, 57, 55, 10, 10
:::*No: 150, 148, 143, 142, 139, 139, 132, 132, 129, 122, 122, 118, 118, 114, 88, 66, 56, 56, 53, 49, 47, 42, 35, 24, 20, 15
::*L4
:::*Yes: 110, 88, 85, 79, 78, 73, 69, 68, 67, 62, 58, 58, 56, 42, 35, 26, 25, 15, 2
:::*No: 109, 95, 95, 89, 53, 48, 48
::*L5
:::*Yes: 697, 686, 644, 644, 503, 500, 493, 489, 474, 464, 450, 426, 399, 336, 313, 240, 240, 216, 162, 156, 53, 23, 11
:::*No: 722, 713, 712, 700, 698, 685, 678, 666, 666, 657, 650, 648, 646, 646, 643, 640, 626, 618, 617, 615, 607, 596, 594, 592, 591, 590, 589, 583, 574, 572, 564, 554, 553, 552, 552, 551, 543, 529, 524, 521, 506, 498, 490, 486, 480, 454, 454, 447, 425, 425, 419, 403, 390, 387, 384, 378, 371, 367, 367, 360, 351, 350, 341, 335, 333, 325, 321, 321, 315, 311, 305, 305, 303, 302, 297, 287, 281, 278, 269, 269, 258, 252, 251, 241, 239, 237, 235, 234, 232, 225, 224, 218, 206, 199, 196, 196, 189, 182, 170, 153, 152, 147, 145, 144, 137, 136, 124, 123, 117, 117, 112, 101, 93, 90, 68, 55, 52, 49, 46, 35, 27, 4
::*L6
:::*Yes: 
:::*No: 
::::*Note: I just realized that all the Taekwondo stuffs about "Chon ji" and "heaven and earth" etc. actually was talking about the Chonji lake, as used in 296th site for L2. However, for now, since L1 was already conducted w/o the assumption that Taekwondo referred to the lake when using the phrase within its own terminology, I'm not going to include them unless I see that the data is biased because of my neglect.
:::::*Additionally, the Google results change in # constantly - I don't know why...
::::*Note: As for L5, I didn't know that the Tianchi Lake near Jilin Province was the same lake discussed here... so, there should be error of about - 3 sites.
(Wikimachine 16:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not done yet, so all that I put don't mean anything yet. (Wikimachine 19:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not concerned about the order of the words or the exact title.... English is a language that can be molded & varied. What I'm concerned about is Cheonji vs. Tianchi. And the statistics procedure already excludes Wiki sites. (Wikimachine 15:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Statistics Inference of the search result