Talk:Frank Zappa/Archive 1

message: I removed this sentence, couldn't see how the link related to the article (which I thought was great by the way). 
"See Tom and Jerry for an anecdote from this era."
:try Tom and Jerry (band) . Make sense now? GangofOne 08:33, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed link 

message: Given that this article is getting rather large (it's passed the 32k mark), would someone separate out the info on Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention? There's a lot of inbound links looking for the band, and it currently redirects to this article. I'd do it, but I don't know the subject well enough to separate out what needs to stay here and what should go. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:39, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a little sticky.  See, by the time <I>Freak Out!</I> came out, the Mothers were already "Frank and his Amazing Band."  So if there's a seperate article for it, it should talk about the period from its inception until Zappa took over, and then link to the Zappa article. --66.241.95.65 17:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mothers of Invention 

message: I just added some items, including several albums by other artists which were entirely Zappa music.  Perhaps someone will want to separate them into a second list, but if so, remember to take also several others, including several orchestral albums, and "Zappa's Universe."  
Another category might be the compilations which are entirely covered on other albums.  I added now some that came out in the sixties in Verve.  erl  216.19.218.50 22:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discography

message: His dad was born in Sicily and of Greek-Arab ancestry, so I think it's more appropriate to refer to him simply as "American."  -- Dave C. 01:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek American

message: The biographer's list of ethnicities (Greek, Arab, French, German, Sicilian)for Zappa is puzzling. Is this list truly relevant? Most peninsular Southern Italians (PSI) have Greek ancestry, and a significant amount of Sicilians have Arab ancestry. Were Zappa's ancestors of Greek and Arab ancestry his more recent ancestors or is this something that he or a biographer based on probable ancestry from medieval and/or ancient times? If so, is this truly relavent? Same goes for his French and German ancestry. After the fall of Rome, wave after wave of northern Europeans "emigrated" to the Italian peninsula. Many of us (PSI here) have a jumbled ancestry that includes strains of German, French, Spanish, etc. As for Greek ancestry, Southern Italy was a frontier territory of Ancient Greece (part of Magna Grecia), and Greece eased its surplus population problems in ancient times by encouraging Greek immigration to Italy (esp. to Sicily and the lower half of the Italian peninsula). So again alot of PSI's have Greek ancestry. Sicily was under Saracen (ie. Arab) control for centuries, hence the Arab ancestry for many Sicilians. I can't find any hard evidence of Zappa's "diverse" ancestry. Please inform otherwise. I would be pleased to have my suspicions proven wrong (ie. that this diversity of ethnicities was unneccessarily amplified).--bobo 05:04, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Southern Italian

message: The mood of the first photo would be a turn off to people who had never heard of Zappa. It smacks of the pretentious "Rock Musician turned composer" cliche. Let's have not so much serious chin stroking on the site - this is the man who penned "Bobby Brown Goes Down", and can pronounce the word "spindle" better than anyone. Perhaps a photo of a lubtricated buttplug (not in butt) with some sheet music of his work, tastefully overlaid, would be better.
:Agreed.--TheUniversal 02:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Photo

message: I noticed that the structure of the article goes, Mothers, 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.  Well, Zappa did quite a bit of stuff outside of the Mothers in the 1960's such as Lumpy Gravy, and Hot Rats, so, this section should really be renamed to the 1960's (and the Mothers perhaps), or moved to a new article simply based on the Mothers of Invention.
: Agreed. For an outsider, it is very confusing. I have changed the section "The Mothers of Invention" to "The 1960s". I think it is obvious from the article that Zappa somestimes used the "Mothers" name and sometimes his own name.--HJ 10:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1960's means Mothers?

message: Hey all, I've uploaded a picture of Zappa's only known statue. Please insert this wherever you see fit in the article.
Also, I think you should remove the 'Quotes' section, since it's all already in wikiquote. Volland 18:49, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of Zappa's statue 

message: As far as I am aware, Frank Zappa was never a registered member of the CotSG.  While he might have met Ivan Stang and few of them (they were massive Zappa fans) and Zappa might have said something endorsing the church, I don't think he ever bothered registering.  Permission to remove?--Knucmo2 11:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If the person who added the info didn't supply any evidence for the assertion, go ahead. --Jacj 19:29, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subgenius 

message: There is a Frank_zappa page AND a Frank_Zappa page?
and why are they different? (at times)
This is very confusing and should be fixed.
: They shouldn't be different - Frank zappa is what is called a "redirect" to Frank Zappa, so anyone going to the first page will automatically be sent to the second one (if you click on the first link you'll see "(Redirected from Frank zappa)" at the top of the page).  --  ajn</span> (talk) 08:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHY? 

message: jpgordon edited out "which was actually named by Nando!" from jellyfish (Phialella zappa which was actually named by Nando!),   Esoteric perhaps, but not a personal comment. Nando was Zappa's friend and marine biologist who was inserted to "Lonesome Cowboy Bert" as "Lonesome Cowboy Nando" on "You Can't Do THat on Stage Anymore Vol 6", in fact Nando was inserted into the entire concert. Nando actually named the species. I read this somewhere, can't remember where, maybe someone else does. GangofOne 09:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nando

message: Knucmo2, please don't. You're removing interesting facts. Who cares how long it is. Only people reading this are fans anyway. GangofOne 01:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If were writing it for fans why do we not lavish praise upon the great man?  It's an encyclopedia article, and a chief virtue of articles of this kind are succinctness and brevity.  There are far too many  bits in this article that are bordering on irrelevance, and the page is becoming too large.  The section on his adolescence is far too large compared with his later work.  The significant periods are deserving of more attention.  The article is 43 KB, if every musical artist had a page this size, the servers wouldn't be able to handle it.--Knucmo2 16:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said we were writing it for the fans - my first sentence was a rhetorical question. --Knucmo2 17:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not saying it can't be worded better. Go right ahead.GangofOne 05:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I already did. You reverted it. If the information has any special value, please put it in in an encyclopedic fashion.  --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

text:  Agreed with people suggesting revision for brevity. I wanted to read about Zappa's work overall, since I know little more than his name and feel that the forest is being lost for the trees. Guess that's the problem with a fan-generated encyclopedia. --Evan Donovan 21:30, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "still trying to trim this down to maintain brevity without sacrificing required detail"

message: Documentation? or did you just make it up? GangofOne 05:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds like opinion, I've found nothing as regards an IQ test for Zappa.--Knucmo2 16:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Show us the url GangofOne 01:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:   "(with an [[I.Q.]] of 173)," added by 24.253.120.206 

message: In the Pomona College article, it states Zappa was a "famous dropout" yet I don't see it mentioned anywhere here... Is there proof one way or the other about this?
--kris 19:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about his attendance but the Pomona Valley Symphony Orchestra recorded the music that Zappa wrote for the "World's Greatest Sinner" as directed by Tim Carey.  Maybe there's a mix-up? --Knucmo2 16:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In interview Zappa said he attended one semester of a college (I don't remember which one), studied Music Compostion with guy who wrote the movie. (Or was it Run Homw Slow) In another interview he said he attended one semester to get laid, in which he was sucessful. GangofOne 06:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pomona College? 

message: The Artwork from "Man from Utopia" was done by the artist who created the comic figure "Rank Zerox". In the Artwork from the album FZ is depicted as a Rank-like Robot (very angry) with plenty of other spoofs (see the audience).
:It's actually RanXerox and the artist is Tanino Liberatore Hamster Sandwich 02:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Man from Utopia - Artwork 

message: Would it be possible for some of us to begin work on a references section, so that this article can obtain featured status? I'm sure many fans would love to see Frank on the front page, but it won't be possible until there are citations of the sources used. I'm going to get started on this myself shortly, but it's a big task and some help would really be appreciated. 81.155.38.197 00:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been done by the looks of it.  The best source is Slaven's book for factual accuracy I would say.  Miles' book is too full of opinion as is Ochiogrosso's. --Knucmo2 15:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Including References 

message: If you've ever seen his appearance on CNN Crossfire (see CNN Crossfire) in the 80's it's easy to recognize that frank zappa is a genius. he admits to never finishing high school yet when it comes to regular logic and honest meaningful agrumentation (see argument) he takes the CAKE. i think this entire show can be found on ifilm.com. anyway i just want you all to know i worship zappa eben though he may be kitchsy as hell sometimes. also is there a mention of his family on here? it may add too much length but maybe there should be a sepperqate article - his success as a father or maybe rather his genes's success at replicating should be noted. my friend thinks Soleil Moon Frye is his daughter when it's really Moon Unit Zappa, fuckin hippies, j/kAmirman 07:59, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When you look at this in the morning, you're gonna wish you never posted it! --Knucmo2 12:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: posssible additions (i'm drunk)

message: I added a note about Zappa's grammy award for Jazz from Hell.  Can someone add the album cover image of Jazz From Hell at the end of the 1980's section of the main article to go witht he grammy note?  Thanks
64.132.183.22 01:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammy Reference 

message: When discussing Zappa appearing on a Monkees episode it is stated that Zappa played Nesmith whilst Nesmith played Zappa. Didn't this also happen on "200 Motels" with Ringo Starr and Zappa (and, er, Aynsley Dunbar with Ringo?) swapping roles, with even more rediculous "costume changes" since there was already a passing similarity between the two (i.e. they were white, dark haired and had large "handlebar" moustaches)?LessHeard vanU 23:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Starr does appear as "Zappa" in the movie. --Knucmo2 15:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monkees  / "200 Motels" 

message: It makes it very distracting for the reader.Bronayur 18:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? Hyacinth 18:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is everything underlined?

message: This article needs minor tweaking throughout to improve the style, as in this edit to the intro. I haven't put a cleanup tag on because that would be OTT I think.Tyrenius 05:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, as most of it is fine by the Manual of Style.  I've cleaned up several sentences that sounded awkward and clumsy and tried to factor out some of the POV that was in the article (the link to anarchism being the funniest one; I remember reading somewhere Zappa refused to accept the position as president of the Libertarian party because they were "closet anarchists".) I've only done up to the end of the sixties as I make this post, I think the grammar gets better from there on out, but we'll see. --Knucmo2 15:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Style cleanup

message: He also appeared on TV show Crossfire 1986, and explicitly implied... 
What the heck does "explicitly implied" mean? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha, I think its a contradiction.  An implication is always implicit; that is a tautology and trivial.  --Knucmo2 15:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Has been changed now (June 4, 2006); i.e., "explicitly" is deleted (not be me, I just report it)--HJ 22:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peculiar sentence 

message: While I do not disagree with the contents of the Läther story, I think this part of hassle between Franks and record company gets way to much weight in the 1970's section. After all, it is a minor thing compared to the HUGE amount of diverse material he released. Also, his whole career was full of intended box sets that never was realized. I think in an Encyclopedia one should stick with facts, and just mention that the four albums in question were part of a never realized project, that was released after his dead.--HJ 14:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Läther sub-section 

message: I removed the sentence "He also became known for dismissing the contributions of his musicians, going so far as to withhold royalties rather than share the glory." This is completely unsubstantiated, and requires definitely a reference in order to stay. Surely, some former band members were not on good terms with Zappa, and at some point a law suit was set up (led by Don Preston, I think, when the Old Masters Vol. 1 - Box Set was released). But to the best of my knowledge Zappa was never convicted of any such fraud. Unless that can be proven, I think the sentence should not be there.--HJ 20:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted sentence containing unsubstaintiated claim 

message: The sentence "Allegedly, a theremin was used at some live performance making use of the unique sound characteristic." is removed. It is an assertion, and if true not a very crucial one for describing Zappa/Mothers.--HJ 10:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theremin