Talk:Legitimacy (family law)

message: I would like to include a chapter on Legitimacy vs Legality because these words are often used as synonims in Wikipedia.
Legitimacy means things are just. Of course debateble. 
Legality means to have a basis in law. Laws are by their very nature Legal. 
Their legitimacy is sometimes disputed. For example the Apartheids Laws.........
Aixroot (talk) 09:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Legitimacy vs Legality

message: While the British and American experiences with legitimacy are of great interest, it would be desirable for legal scholars from other countries to provide information on their countries' experience.  logologist|Talk 20:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Legitimacy outside Britain

message: Could someone please move this section so that it will follow the general "History" section?  It seems rather idiosyncratic to be opening a general article on legitimacy with a specialized discussion of the laws obtaining in just certain parts of one United Kingdom.  Nihil novi (talk) 04:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved this material into a separate, linked article on "Legitimacy law in England and Wales."  I've also split the main matter of "Legitimacy (law)" into two sections, "History" and "At present," reorganizing the article's material accordingly.  Nihil novi (talk) 07:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "England and Wales"

message: I find this part rather offensive, it almost implies people born to unmarried parents have some mental or physical disability which would inhibit them making contributions to history.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.72.70.113 (talk) 11:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "History has shown people of illegitimate..."

message: This isn't in the article, so I wanted to ask: Is a child still considered illegitimate if his or her parents marry after the child is born? --24.164.87.138 (talk) 03:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the child is a bastard.
Actually, in many cases children were declared legitimate when this happened, especially if they belonged to noble families and could get dispensations from high powers such as the church. --BRCScriptor (talk) 10:53, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: This article is focused on situation of specific western countries. It could be relabelled legitimacy in US and UK. Or it could continue under the same title with situations previaling in all countries.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.124.230.149 (talk) 09:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please add any pertinent information applicable to a broader international context.  Nihil novi (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: US /UK CENTRIC Article

message: They make sense when introducing a definition, but most of them are "scare quotes", which aren't "appropriate" in an "encyclopedia article".  DanBishop (talk) 04:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably many of the quotation marks could be retired.  Nihil novi (talk) 04:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What's with all the "quotation marks"?

message: A related issue, to which the Catholic Church has begun to respond to, is the matter of illegimate children being born from illicit sexual relations involving members of the clergy. This should probably be included somehwere as an example of modern illegitimacy.   ADM (talk) 16:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How is this modern?  It's been an issue for about 1,000 years. Tobit2 (talk) 18:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's modern in the sense that illegitimacy in general is no longer relevant in secular legal conventions, but that it retains a social value in conservative institutions like the Roman Catholic Church, which applies the concept in certain cases of canon law, notably when it disciplines its clergy for having produced children in irregular or illicit sexual relationships. ADM (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are pointing out the Catholic Church retains its own concept of illegitimacy that, while quite ancient, remains distinct from secular definitions and continues to evolve.  Here is an idea to beef up the article- why not divide it into three parts: 1) secular laws on illegitimacy, 2) religious traditions on illegitimacy, and 3) social conventions regarding illegitimacy.  I add the latter because, social stigmas continue to exist, at least in the West, and have historical importance.Tobit2 (talk) 23:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The illicitness of the sexual relations in question have nothing to do with the issue described in this article. Sure, children of priests are (usually) illegitimate as the priest was not married to the child's mother. However, the child would be no more (or less) illegimate than that of a layman fathering a child outside of marriage. There's no additional illegitimacy because of priestly celibacy, nor any specifically Catholic law on illegitimacy. Str1977 (talk) 16:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Illegitimate children of priests

message: There is no need to have such a large gallery of people in this article. It's unsightly and there is no reasonable justification for it. It goes against WP:GA criterea Vistium (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  large gallery 

message: Should the list of people of extramarital birth in this article really include modern people? It seems a little odd. Nowadays, and indeed the article even say so, "illegitimacy" is no longer rare, at least in Europe, and no longer regarded as an exception or a label enough for it to be relevant with a list. I am from Sweden, and almost everyone here, including myself, are "bastards", which is why this concept is simply no longer used in society what so ever. It is a concept from the past, the 19th century. To have a list of people of extramarital birth indicates that this is a label, something extraordinary and something which to value and sort people after, while in the modern western world, surely, this is no longer significant what so ever. I think the list should only include people from an age when this concept had a meaning. I do now, of course, that people might be more old-fashioned in USA than i Europe, but surely people are no longer labelled as bastards in USA either, in 2011? This is no longer the Victorian age, after all.--85.226.45.240 (talk) 12:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it may be a norm in Sweeden now days, but in some parts of the world illegitimacy is still an issue, so list of modern people can help overcome society stigma in these places. Also, for encyclopedia purpose it would be hard to say when the concept stop have a meaning, because in many countries of the world it is still very relevant, unfortunately. Innab (talk) 19:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevant list of modern people 

message: Why is the entire right column of the article a stack of illegitimate children? I mean is it really that big of a deal? there's already a list at the end of the article, isn't that enough? If there is no justification, I'll probably delete a lot of them.  --75.73.176.26 (talk) 04:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "A picture is worth a thousand words."  Illustrations give an immediate, intuitive sense of the array of notable persons who have faced the varying challenges of "illegitimacy" over the ages, in a way that mere text cannot.  Nihil novi (talk) 04:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem, however, is that there's no header or anything that announces "here's a gallery of people who were born outside marriage." It just doesn't work graphically. I tried downloading the article as a pdf, and viewing a printable version, to see how this non-standard layout came out. Not well, I regret to say. I hope you don't mind, but I moved two images out of the ersatz gallery, and placed them by the text they illustrated, since the article is rather gray. I placed the "Family Law" infobox at the top, in order to announce the nature of the topic more clearly. I then placed the remaining images to illustrate the list of people, though regretfully deleting one, as there were just too many clustering at one point in the chronology. I saw two other option: the simplest, to create a simple image gallery (but that too would need to go with the section listing the people it illustrated); or to create a table, a more complicated matter that requires greater uniformity among list entries. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Way too many pictures 

message: 41.96.19.26 (talk) believes that all references to the Catholic church or Christianity should be removed and replaced with the word, "Liberal." diff I'm not sure their exact reasoning, but I figured I would start a discussion, so the community could contribute to a WP:CONSENSUS, instead of edit warring. Anyone else feel such a change is appropriate? —Josh3580talk/hist 23:40, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly not all Catholics or Christians would be described or self-described as "Liberals" (however that may be defined).  I see no justification for substituting "Liberal" for "Catholic" or for "Christian".  Nihil novi (talk) 09:32, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replacing "Catholic" with "Liberal" 

message: I do not consider that the section on Extramarital births has a place in this Legitimacy article. The implication is that such children are in some sense illegitimate, which is wrong. Under the laws of most if not all western countries as they stand, there is no implication of stigma or anything other than equal status. Perhaps the material can be moved to extramarital sex, but then you have the issue of what is "marriage" in the contemporary world. Enthusiast (talk) 00:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I would disagree:  How better, than with the "Extramarital births" section, to highlight the changes in laws and attitudes that have been taking place?  If a reader concludes that extramarital births are invariably illegitimate births, then he isn't reading very carefully–or perhaps the article needs some copy-editing for clarity.  To generalize, illegitimate births are extramarital, but extramarital births are not necessarily illegitimate.  Nihil novi (talk) 03:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

text: There is no conflict. What is being said is that of  all teenage births, 86% were extramarital, and that of all extramarital births (for all ages) 23% were to teenage girls.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.25.173.86 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Extramarital births

message: I suppose in legal studies, "Legitimacy (law)" is supposed to be refered to Legitimacy of law which is entirely vast and different subject. The present article has limited scope to family law matters and still it is unncessarilly blocking and using misleading title of a different subject. Since I am already in process of working on subject of legal legitimacy that is Legitimacy of law  I will apreciate change of title for this article to  "Legitimacy (family law)" 
Comments from legal fraternity will be highly apreciated.
Mahitgar (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change of name to "Legitimacy (Family law)" 

message: Are these sections more incidental than integral to the article..? Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "In fiction", "Notable people" sections 

message: "While births outside marriage are considered acceptable in many world regions, in some parts of the world they remain highly stigmatized."
Isn't it relevant to mention which parts of the world are which? Especially when a specific punishment, stoning, is mentioned in the same section with no reference to what general region, let alone country, we're referring to. There's no real reason this information shouldn't be in the article, seeing as specific national examples are given in multiple other cases. Is there something I'm not seeing here besides a strangely concerted effort not to mention what continents, nations, or general regions still stone or otherwise harm people over extramarital pregnancy and childbirth?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.65.78.110 (talk) 14:52, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "in some parts of the world they remain highly stigmatized" 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Legitimacy (family law). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120205181214/http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/web/common.nsf/key/HistoryBeforeEuropeanSettlement to http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/web/common.nsf/key/HistoryBeforeEuropeanSettlement
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150414032706/http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title8-vol1/pdf/CFR-2012-title8-vol1-sec320-3.pdf to http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title8-vol1/pdf/CFR-2012-title8-vol1-sec320-3.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141222133823/http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/47701118.pdf to http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/47701118.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.mrt-rrt.gov.au/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=91cf943a-3fa6-4fce-afec-4ab2c2a356fd
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:07, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi,
A Request for comment to build consensus  is raised at Talk:Legitimacy (criminal law)#RfC requesting concensus to move article to Legitimacy (law) talk page.
:The reason is : Previously written title article for Legitimacy (law) over a period of time actually and mistakenly got developed only for 'Legitimacy (family law)'. In legal studies, "Legitimacy (law)" is supposed to be refered to Legitimacy of law which is entirely vast and different subject. The present article 'Legitimacy (family law)' has limited scope to family law matters and still it is unncessarilly blocking and using misleading title of a different & wider subject. 
* What is proposed in Rfc
:1) Move "that" article to heading Legitimacy (law) as a rightfull claim over the title.
:2) to correct redierections in various articles from Legitimacy (law) to Legitimacy (family law).(list). for example bastard son link in one of the articles  needs to be  changed to bastard son  or for example illegitimate needs to be  changed to illegitimate 
Please do participate and share your valuable openions at talk page Talk:Legitimacy (criminal law)#RfC requesting concensus to move article to Legitimacy (law)
Mahitgar (talk) 17:25, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Rfc 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Legitimacy (criminal law) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 01:16, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: This list wasn't particularly well cited, mostly OR, and there were vastly different people listed here. Some were children of single mothers, some slaves, some where the parents married later, some where the mother was married but the biological parents weren't married to each other, and others were born illegitimate but later legitimised (or vice versa). From a BLP perspective, I do not think it is acceptable to point out specific living examples. Unless we find lists elsewhere that combine illegitimate royalty with Miley Cyrus, we should not have such a list. —Kusma (t·c) 10:13, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Notable people" section 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Legitimacy (family law). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150923213635/http://www.demogr.mpg.de/en/projects_publications/publications_1904/mpidr_working_papers/spatial_aspects_of_the_rise_of_nonmarital_fertility_across_europe_since_1960_the_role_of_states_4404.htm to http://www.demogr.mpg.de/en/projects_publications/publications_1904/mpidr_working_papers/spatial_aspects_of_the_rise_of_nonmarital_fertility_across_europe_since_1960_the_role_of_states_4404.htm
*Added  tag to http://www.regeringen.se/404/%7Ctitle%3DSidan
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:44, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified