Talk:Scientific method/Archive 13

message: This talk page certainly needs archiving. Not a chance of seeing the whole thing in Blazer. Could someone who has been paying attention oblige? Banno 00:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --Ancheta Wis 01:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Ancheta Banno 02:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, makes it a lot easier no matter what my space-time coordinates are. ... Kenosis 02:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look at what I did on Talk Page cleanup issues for the Wiki entry for psychokinesis. Go to the Discussion page there and see the notice. Not everyone is aware that if you delete something, it is still available in the archive. Also, I've sometimes included a time limit on my and others' postings, giving everyone the right to delete after a certain date: "After 10 days, I propose this discussion block can be deleted (moved to the archive section) to keep this page from filling up again. (If you are reading this on [date] or later, then delete this entire discussion block.)" Seems to work to everyone's satisfaction over at that entry. You might want to try someting like that here, 10 days, 30 days, whatever. Some Talk entries, however, deserve to stay indefinitely obviously. Anything can be restored though. 208.50.10.5 15:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive 12 

message: In reading the article, I noticed that there was no mention that some scientific research is not available for peer review/publishing, such as classified research for the government and corporate research and development projects. A one sentence addition would be useful about that. This suggestion can be deleted (archived) if someone makes it so. 208.50.10.5 15:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for Peer Review Section - classified research and corporate R&D 

message: This material placed yesterday into the introduction by User:Faaaa, removed yesterday: ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *The fundamental assumption of the scientific method is that the scientific "laws" should always be space-time position independant or bounded to strictly defined space-time co-ordinates.This assumption is made to preserve that experiments and their results are also space-time position independant or space-time position bounded, so that it is not necessary to repeat experiments into all space-time co-ordinates in order to be able to prove a scientific theory. If the laws that govern experiments are position dependant and/or cannot be bounded in a specific space-time position, then the experiments have to be repeated to all space-time co-ordinates (or to all bounded space-time co-ordinates the scientific theory requires), in order for the scientific theory to be proved. ... 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Scientific method deals only with repeatable events. This is a fundamental assumption of the method, which assumes that all natural phenomena should be underlied to repetition. Hardcore scientists claim that non repeatable natural phenomena do not exist and never existed, as long as they cannot be repeated and tested through experiment. ... 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Scientific method assumes that space-time is homogenous. The method can only deal with repeatable events. Why dont you mention this into the article? I think it is essential mentioning it. Faaaa 22:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have a couple of issues with the new material. A model is tested, and this will generally cover a multitude of possible events, none of which are repeatable exactly. For example masses are never measured precisely. So events themselves don't have to be repeatable as long as the model can still be tested. Stephen B Streater 22:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The non repeatable events you are mentioning are related eachother. Scientists insert into their theory, experiment and measurement the possibility of a statistical error, and this error is expected to be below a predefined percentage. As long as the error in measurements are not above this predefined percentage, then the theory is considered to be correct. But in that case we are not talking about non repeatable events, we are talking about related repeatable events that may differ eachother just a little bit, and we define how little this bit may be. Could you please give me an example, where scientific method deals whith non repeatable, unrelated eachother, events? I dont think so. The method requires for the events to be repeatable, or almost repeatable. Faaaa 23:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Newtonian dynamics. Almost identical initial conditions can lead to widely divergent outcomes, for example with double pendulums. Chaos theory predicts this behaviour, which can be tested, but no event is repeatable enough to exhibit the same or even similar positions over time. Stephen B Streater 23:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let me doubt a little bit that Chaos theory is able to predict Newtonian dynamics. It predicts, but always under the possibility of a statistical error. Even in the case that accurate predictions can be made by Chaos theory, scientific method still assumes that space-time is homogenous, in order for the Chaos theory to be valid in all space and time, and thus beeing able to predict the Chaotic behavior of Newtonian dynamics.  Faaaa 23:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Plenty of citations. Search about space-time homogeneity, space-time isotropy, or Cosmological Principle. Scientific method assumes that principle, and I think we should mention it. Faaaa 23:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, the citations should be here, not in other unlinked articles; secondly, what you propose is a contentious issue in philosophy of science, not a verifiable part of scientific method. At the least, you need to provide citations, and move the material to the correct secton. Banno 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There is also the issue of organization of content in the article.  The intro is already slightly too long, but it was decided to live with it.  More will need to be a central aspect that runs the gamut of variations in method for different fields of inquiry, as well as be concise and accurately stated. ... Kenosis 00:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed material

message: The ball lighting which killed Georg Richmann was observed by Sokolow, his engraver. cites are Clarke, Ronald W. Benjamin Franklin, A Biography. Random House (1983) p. 87 and Physics Today, vol. 59, #1, p.42. --Ancheta Wis 10:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ball lightning citation 

message: JA: Being, I'm guessing, the only person or even quasi-person here with a degree in "Mathematical and Philosophical Method" (BA MPM, JMC, MSU, 1976), I feel quasi-qualified to say something on the nature of method, scientific method in particular.
JA: The first thing to know about any method is that it involves a voluntary limitation.  So when you say that a method is limited this is just a tautology.  It is the limit that makes it a method.  The question is whether the limit that you are talking about is the one that is built into the method from the start, or perhaps some other limit that was not intended.
JA: When it comes to scientific method, the limit that defines the method was identified some time ago by Aristotle.  I will comment on this after I finish my coffee.  Jon Awbrey 12:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: On the nature of method

message: JA: I have corrected a slight overstatement of the status of causality in science.  I think that my qualifications are a fairer summary of the literature, and it's easy to come up with many citations from the likes of anybody from Peirce to Heisenberg if anybody feels the need to do so.  Jon Awbrey 20:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my estimation, this is an apt correction you made in the callout box, which has my support.  I appreciated your qualification of falsifiability which covers the appropriate base about Popper and modus tollens. ... Kenosis 21:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the not so fundamental status of causality 

message: I'm surprised so little is mentioned on the role of probability, in several areas:
1. Precision of measurement and importance of including it in calculations and results.
2. Weighing of the (estimated) probability of the truth of a hypothesis with the effort involved in resolving it further. Failing to do this well is one of the main hindrances to scientific progress. For example, there was a time when the vast majority of doctors chose not to spend 30 seconds washing their hands between patients because they assigned an unreasonably low probability to the validity of the microbe hypothesis, or were simply too lazy, or both. It seems a true scientist would at least be willing to try it for a few months to conduct his own experiment. We must be careful to consider ourselves part of the "enlightened age of enlightened thinking"--those doctors probably felt the same way.
3. Philosophy: nothing can be totally proven and nothing can be totally disproven (only seat-of-the-pants probabilities can be assigned) because the laws of a universe cannot be proven consistent from within that universe. Yes, we've even learned "logic" by observing our universe.
-QZ27, Aug 13, 2006
:Thank you for your contribution. This is covered by the references to Bayesian inference. --Ancheta Wis 19:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the role of probability 

message: Just posting to say my first impression of a quick look through the article is a really good one, and I especially like the bit unorthodox way of merging the DNA examples into the article to exemplify the topics that could otherwise be a bit abstract. I haven't seen the method in much use in Wikipedia, but I think it works really well. :-) -- Northgrove 22:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your kind words. --Ancheta Wis 23:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice article! 

message: Stanislaw Ulam in his autobiography Adventures of a Mathematician recommended Poincaré's Science and Hypothesis to all. A link to an e-print of this classic is listed in the bib. of the article. --Ancheta Wis 21:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Science and Hypothesis

message: I've removed the following sentence from the first paragraph of the intro, for further consideration as to its accuracy and relevance in the intro.  Perhaps it was an attempt to explain the concept of a theory?, which is already introduced elsewhere. Also, there were previously some concern about whether the statement "All such evidence is collectively called scientific evidence" belonged in that paragraph, so I've removed that pending a clarification on whether it's needed in the lead paragraph. ... Kenosis 16:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call I think. --Chris 22:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed sentence from intro

message: I've removed the large section on Peirce's theory. There does not appear to be a good reason to single him out for a special place in this article. Banno 21:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peirce 

message: I know that we never seem to get further than the introduction, but here's a thing. We say in the second sentence, "It is based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning." In the citation, Newton uses the work 'rules' rather than 'laws'. I notice that this is normally the case as in Descartes' Rules for the Direction of the Mind, Popper's "rule of thumb". Bacon, despite being a lawyer, calls his New Organon, "true directions concerning the interpretation of nature". I suggest we change the sentence to read "rules of reasoning". --Chris 21:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. --Ancheta Wis 21:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rules or laws 

message: First I want to thank Banno for his recent edits which I believe were an improvement. It's only a shame that the demarcation section had to go, although I understand why it had to. A lot of work is required on the demarcation article itself. Once things start to shape up there, maybe we can re-introduce the section. --Chris 20:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Demarcation section gone

message: I've just reverted an anon user's contrubution from the intro, specifically one which replaced the longstanding second paragraph of the lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientific_method&diff=84756426&oldid=84514984 implemented here).  Because it appears to be an explanation that could be of potential future value in the future, I'm placing it immediately below for futher reference. The removed material is as follows: ... Kenosis 04:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed paragraph from introduction

message: I'm surprised that this is not a featured article yet. What's the holdup? Sr13 07:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scientific method

message: These ideas were skipped over by Isaac Newton with, "I do not define time, space, place and motion, as being well known to all." 
This is not right.  He doesn't skip over them.  Newton is saying that he is not defining what is popularly understood as these things and immediately goes on to define each of them in detail in absolute and relative terms. The text is at http://pratt.edu/~arch543p/readings/Newton.html 
-Pepper 150.203.227.130 05:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: misquote

message: I made some changes to the first 3 paras. I find that in most of this,that too much the "results of" and/or "the management of" science, it's experiments and it' "useful paradigms and expectations" (e.g. that hypotheses will get broader, more accurate, etc., or that they must be made by the "rules of logic" which themselves have yet to have a fully acceptable foundation, as is the same with math, that measurement is indirect "obervations usually based on a theory", etc., etc., is all only an observation that hypotheses agglomerate into theories, that these so very often are expressed in math terms, that so much of physics can be based on Lagrangians, etc., etc. I vote  to keep it to the bare 3 steps. Any more is as yet untested, unhypothesized "observations" on our proceedings to date with the three steps. We may call much of it meta scientific method or emerging philosophy and separate, but not all that is put forth here is really needed, or I believe really is in sci meth. 129.24.141.64 23:32, 25 November 2006  LekLiberty
::I changed it back to the earlier approach, arrived at by consensus of a number of editors in the Spring of 2006.  The consensus is not inflexible, but should be discussed interactively before making any major changes to the approach. ... Kenosis 03:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Experiment is part of scientific method. That is the reason I reverted the latest contribution. Although I agree with an edit which champions scholarship and research, there is a problem with not designing research with an experiment in mind. The issue is that the concepts in play need to be out of the hands of the researcher. That is the role of the experiment in the protocol of the method. Otherwise, it is too easy to play games with the steps and to confuse what is known with what is unknown. When an experiment is designed, the outcome is unknown; the researcher may have hopes, but no control over the outcome. That is what keeps the method free of games. --Ancheta Wis 02:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Experiment is part of the methods used by experimental sciences, not by science in general.  Science in general uses something like "real-world corrective feedback" of which experiment can often be a part.  Perhaps physicists would like to define "science" as meaning "experimental sciences such as physics."  Such things are disingenuous.  Paleontology is not an experimental science.  Neither is Astronomy.  Both are sciences, since they make and break theories by feedback from the real world.  But there are more forms of feedback besides performing an active experiment with control of variables, etc. --Wjbeaty 03:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disturbed at Distortion

message: I did not know that laughter (hahahaha), which I have never done before, explained the scientific method. Hey everyone! Laughter is the best way to solve and conduct an experiment! 67.86.24.40 00:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To the anon. contributors: When we update the article, we typically give rationales. So if you have something to contribute, please say it here first. --Ancheta Wis 23:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laughter 

message: 1. Experiment is part of "Observation" and/of of "Testing of Hypotheses" which is part of SM. Experimentless observation/testing is possible and allowed, required some might say when a discipline is very new, cuz at that time there is not enuf "known" to even think of hypothesizing or testing! So Experimentation is not the top level part of the SM definition; Observation and/or Testing is and they includes Experimentation as subsets.
2. The problem mentioned is better stated "there is a problem with desining experiments without a Hypothesis in mind". And research is a synonym for either SM or literature review/search!
3. The research is necessarily in the hands of the researchers, with errors, ignorance and even game playing if "so unethical". Replication of any of the three steps of SM I suggest is it's definition, Observation, Hypothesis and Test, catches all these: errors, ignorance and even game playing and unethical practices.
LekLibertyLekLiberty
:: Well, if anyone is able to arrive at a definition for "The Scientific Method" which the experts can agree upon, then finally we also can define the word "science," and the long standing demarcation problem is solved.  But it's far more likely that these problems will attract false "solutions" which try to make the problem appear simpler than it actually is. --Wjbeaty 03:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distubed Cont'd 

message: To Wjbeaty and anyone else out there:---
:Your comments and suggestions appear to me to be an infinite regression:
How do you define, and get a list of cooperating members for us to querry, experts in science, without a definition of science? And how do you get them without a definition, and get a list of cooperating cooperating memebers for us to query, of  experts? This progression is essentially an infinite regression and won't terminate.
Agree, getting a definition of SM gets us to a definition of science. Still I submit the majority of practitioners (experts if you must) will ultimately agree that the SM is only the Three Steps of Observe, Hypothesize, and Test. All other suggested components are essenially only management and dissemination and "commercialization", I submit!
There will be discussion, because, today there are few Renaissance science experts to get at due to extreme specialization. And there will be a need to distinguish the active practice of science, the verb, and the body of knowledge that presently considered true (which only means it has not yet been disproved), the noun(s).
I'd like to see my definition presented to your experts, etc., cuz I think most all of the stuff I've read misses the mark. And in so doing, ya'll are allowong the very distortions you speak of to exist and procreate. And, some of that will get to less than expert in science funders who will then waste and abuse.
I don't want the job of "expert", but neither can I claim ignorance and unfamiliarity. FYI, and not to be bragging, or one upsmanshipping in any way, I've got 30+ years in RDT&E, Academia, Industry, Gov't Scientific Advisor positions, and BA, BS, MS, PH.D., post doc, and secondary ed theough grad school teaching on all this. I really fear for it being "gotten wrong".
Please advise me how I can get "reviewed", "critiqued", etc.---LekLiberty 1/4/07
:There are at least 4 steps, at the base: Observe, Hypothesize, Deduce (i.e. Predict) and Test. You have to have an unknown that you are hypothesing about. No fair predicting a 'known', unless you are building a case for your 'unknown', and are trying to gain confidence in your 'hypothesis'/'prediction'.  'Observe' may not apply; in that case 'Imagine' or 'Question' or 'Inquiry' can be the placeholders. But you must genuinely not know what will happen, and be willing to take the risk to your reputation should your prediction fail. Good luck. --Ancheta Wis 00:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe your four steps are actually three, as is practiced. Your last two, are ususally combined under the term of Test. The idea is that one is testing a Hypothesis, and to do so one must make a (new as you state) prediction (that has not already been covered/tested) and then test that hypothesis with either an experiment or an observation. It can be also that the observation is an "old one", catalogued and known as an observation, but not one "explained" by a hypothesis/theory" that is "new".198.175.175.107 18:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a mental thing. Call the steps C H P T. When something is unknown, no one knows, including you. But if you understand H well enough to predict something logically, then you can marshal physical resources for the P step. i.e. lift a finger, whereas you can just imagine H in your head. Now once you have the resources to perform P infront of others, including your physical statement in front of others, then you have just put your reputation on the line. Remember, T has not been performed yet. Then you have an expectation (P) and a test T all lined up. You perform the steps, open up the box, pull out the result, in front of others. Either you have predicted correctly or your H is wrong. And as the article states, even if your T is as expected, H has just not been disproven yet. Good luck. --Ancheta Wis 22:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Define Experts then please 

message: This article seems very theoretical: is there data showing to what extent the scientific method is actually used by actual, practicing scientists or by non professional scientists ?
Do you really mean theoretical or are you meaning abstract and still not understandable? It's an important distinction for those of us who are trying to get it all right. The street English expressions along the lines of "the thoretical" verses "the practical" have no use in this effort and may be part of where you are coming from. If so, don't worry, you have much company, and if ever we converge to an agreed definition of the "Scintific Method" and "Science", hopefully it will become more clear.
::I mean theoretical in the sense that it is not clear if the SM, as described, is actually used by practicing scientists (I assume that we could find people whom most of us would agree are scientists).
If there is no DATA to show that scientists use the SM described in the article, then the SM is in and of itself, non scientific - not quite sure how to deal with the sort of recursive questions that this raises. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.60.137.141 (talk) 02:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Galileo(1638),Two New Sciences for the example upon which scientific method is based. --Ancheta Wis 05:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are not seriously proposing that a single scientists work from the 1600s is "data" which validates how the majority of all scientists who ever lived (those in the latter part of the 20th century) actually work ?? let me clarify what "data" is" something that shows how most scientists, most of the time, work. I'm sure all scientists use the "sm" as protrayed in the article, at least once.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.60.137.141 (talk) 15:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone had to start the huge stream of knowledge. A trickle has broadened into a torrent; Galileo is that start, unless you care to dispute that. The initial data aside, the encyclopedia shows that the steps are parsimonious. If you throw out one of the pieces, such as 'destroy a scientific community', then the method fails, as shown clearly in the history of science. It should be clear that the method is fundamental to progress. See, for example Needham's Grand Question.  Awaiting your contribution, --Ancheta Wis 16:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

text: You may enjoy historiography of science which collects more critiques of science etc. --Ancheta Wis 16:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theory Vs. Data

message: I've made some comments on Scientific Method and Peer Review in these discusssion sections and have read it all. In my opinion, and I am a practicing "scientist", and I don't think what we have here is  "correct" or shows any sign of "converging to anything" near to correct. FYI on my "concerns" are that I see the base SM missed and over defined, and added to it a bunch of subsidiary issues such as propagation of "results", management of SM activities, validation "types" for SM, old historical views from the early days when it was part of "natural philosophy", and such that is basicly confused and confusing to "students and teachers" (cuz they took me to task and told me so!!)
I suggest that if you guys need to get your "verifiable" needs met and get "practitioners of science and peer review" definitions, that you/we ask for them from: scientists, scientific organizations, science funding agencies, and the same types for history of science sources, philosophy of science sources, and any others you feel you need for your verifialbility requirements. I do feel it's presently wrong enuf to worry about. I suggest you start as Wipepedians "formally requesting inputs" and would suggest you start with the Society of Sigma Xi, which is "the" non-denominational honorary science society. Their publication "American Scientist" would I'm sure receive a letter along these lines and probably publish it in one of their publications. I am a memeber, and would do it for you; but, I think the "formal Wikepedia", whoever/whatever that is, should do it!!  LekLiberty
:Here's an idea for a way forward. One problem with scientific method is that there really is no accepted definition. There are common notions of what scientific method is, which although similar enough to find some commonality are, nevertheless, different enough that any attempt to address all of them in one go is doomed; Abstracting away to preserve only that which is common will produce something completely banal. Doing the opposite and trying to retain every detail, I have difficulty even to imagine.
:This is the main reason I started the history of scientific method article; taken individually the different ideas about method are intelligible and interesting.
:What I’ve noticed while researching for that article (which it woefully incomplete I should point out) is that there are some themes that are really worth expanding on. Take for example Bacon’s eliminative induction which is almost, but not quite, identical with Mill's Methods and remarkably similar to Popper’s falsificationism. All three of these developed methods that value negative instances over positive: basically deductive reasoning, but very different to syllogistic reasoning which we might also mention.
:Something I still have to look into is the development of inductive method. Some great minds have tried to supply induction with the force of deductive logic, including Jacob Bernoulli, Thomas Bayes, Laplace and Rudolf Carnap. If they don’t have something interesting for us, I’d be very surprised. --ChrisSteinbach 22:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Proposal We're Circling in Gridlock