Template talk:Scotland counties

message: The county footers are part of a standard set. Mais oui! has made several changes to this particular template with the following edit sumamries:
*rv anglifications:
:Argyllshire -> Argyll
:Buteshire -> Bute
:Kincardineshire -> The Mearns
:Kirkcudbrightshire -> Stewarty of Kirkcudbright
:Morayshire -> Moray
This has broken a number of the links and is not consistent. The alternative names are listed on the respective county pages and shouldn't be mixed up in this way.
*All counties were abolished in 1975 and restore fact
:These edits have added the text 'All counties were abolished in 1975.' and were also a surreptitious attempt to remove 'United Kingdom'. Points to note:
:*The footer is not the place for such information.
:*The counties were not abolished in 1975. Section 1 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 states:
(1) For the administration of local government on and after 16th May 1975, Scotland shall have local government areas in accordance with the provisions of this section
(5) On 16th May 1975, all local government areas existing immediately before that date, that is to say, all counties, counties of cities, large burghs, small burghs and districts, shall cease to exist
The local government areas referenced by subsection 5 were created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947. Section 1, subsection 1 states: "For the purposes of local government, Scotland shall be divided into counties, counties of cities, large burghs and small burghs".
It can be seen from these two extracts that the 1973 Act abolished local government areas that were created a mere 26 years earlier. This misunderstanding is also the root cause of current edit wars, insults and accusations of vandalism on my talk page.
It should also be noted that Schedule 29 of the 1973 Act also repealed Section 39 of the  Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 that united Ross-shire and Cromartyshire.
Owain (talk) 12:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edits by [[User:Mais oui!|Mais oui!]]

message: The Scottish counties were abolished in 1975. It is an extremely well attested fact. The ongoing campaign to systematically obfuscate this fact is clear, disruptive vandalism. --Mais oui! 13:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you read the legislation? Why are you not responding to the explicit points I have raised above? Just stating "The Scottish counties were abolished in 1975. It is an extremely well attested fact" does not make it so. For local government purposes the counties are no longer directly used, yes, but there are other uses bar local government, just as there were prior to 1890. Your systematic removal of all references to Scottish counties on Wikipedia would be more easily classifiable as vandalism. Getting county categrories deleted with no discussion is vandalism. Removing county fields from Scottish infoboxes is vandalism. Continual reverting of this template to a version that is clearly broken and has your unncessary PoV commentary in it is vandalism. I have clearly pointed out in all my edits on county pages that they are no longer used for local government, but that is clearly not enough for your PoV! You would rather that all the other uses for counties were stopped too. Unfortunately, traditional geographic use can never be stopped and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Having all the information in articles pushes no PoV but allows the reader to choose which piece of information is important to them. You are attemptimg to choose for the reader which piece of information you think is important to them, and that is clearly wrong. Owain (talk) 13:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Counties are units of local government. They were abolished 31 years ago. It really is time that you got over it. If you want to troll about the internet, start a blog.--Mais oui! 14:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again you are making the classic mistake that because local government was based on counties then local government somehow define counties. That is clearly not the case otherwise they wouldn't have existed before 1889/1890. In any case there are many other uses besides local government that counties can be and currently are used for. The Registers of Scotland and Lyon Court both use counties. The Chapman codes and Watsonian vice-counties are based on them. Many current council areas and Lieutenancy areas of Scotland are named after them. They are widely used in postal addresses, and other geographic uses. The Scottish Executive use them quite freely. Look at many Executive press releases that use counties to describe where a place is. Counties were used as local government units between 1890 and 1975, but they have been before 1890 and continue to be used after 1975 for other purposes. What evidence do you have to prove otherwise? Owain (talk) 15:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are deliberatly trying to present the counties as still being in existence. You persistently describe them in the present tense for heaven's sake! They are no longer extant: they are deceased. It is an underhand campaign of obfuscation and deceit. Shame on you.--Mais oui! 16:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Owain. It is impossible to abolish a geographical area. The council administrations that operated within these geographical areas may no longer exist, but the geographical county areas are still in use. Astrotrain 20:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Counties were not "geographical areas". Counties were units of local government which serviced pre-existing geographical areas. Counties came into existence by legislation and they were killed-off by legislation - the names of the areas they temporarily served continue in use, but they were used prior to the invention of counties.--Mais oui! 21:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systematic vandalism 

message: It seems odd that a template for "Subdivisions created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889", covering the period 1889 to 1973, is called :Template:Scotland counties rather than something more accurate, like :Template:Scotland counties (1889-1973). Thoughts ? Explanations ? Precedents ? Angus McLellan  (Talk) 22:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not supposed to be "Subdivisions created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889", that keeps getting added by User:Mais oui! to suggest that counties and shires only existed between 1890 and 1975. If you look at my revision, it has no such notice, and is entited "Counties and Shires of Scotland" just to placate those that think the term "county" was invented by the LG(S)A 1889 (It clearly wasn't as there were "county constituencies" long before that Act). If you think my version is more generic, feel free to revert to it. Owain (talk) 08:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The description "Subdivisions created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889" is accurate, it's the template name that's wrong; it should match that description, not necessarily word for word, but at least acknowledging that these are a C19th introduction. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 11:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The description is NOT accurate. The shires clearly existed before 1890, the only thing invented then was Ross and Cromarty. This is why I removed the text and changed the title to "Counties and Shires of Scotland". Owain (talk) 11:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We know that "Subdivisions created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889" is accurate, because the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 (52 & 53 Vict. c. 50) corresponds with the list. As for it being valid much before 1889, the Statistical Accounts of Scotland and the Register of Sasines and the Vision of Britain site's 1806 and 1812 mapping all suggest otherwise. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 14:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I am fully aware that the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 created a uniform system of county councils with these names on a specific date, but the wording is disingenuous as it suggests that the shires themselves were created in 1890. The reality is that they all have radically different histories and were formed at different times. The 1812 map for example shows them all, 78 years before this wording suggests they were created! Owain (talk) 15:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So why use the 1889 names ? There's no objective reason to prefer Xshire to X when X is (a) shorter and (b) older. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 15:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why the 1889 names?  See Association of British Counties - see  which I believe identifies one Owain Vaughan as hostmaster for the Association of British Counties website. Certainly the same Owain Vaughan has communicated with the BBC in respect of ABC.  So perhaps that explains it. Just zis Guy you know? 20:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: Why not merge this with English and Welsh counties in order to create a counties of Great Britain template? Lofty 09:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be a good idea. There is too much unnecessary regionalism in UK articles as it is. Owain (talk) 09:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be a very bad idea. Not only would it give the entirely false impression that Scots and English counties were in some way related and/or comparable, it would create an excessively large blot on the page. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 09:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Agreed.  The counties issue is even more contentious in Scotland than it is in England. County of Fife my arse ;-) Just zis Guy you know? 10:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I said it would be a good idea, but I knew there was no chance of it happening. UK regionalism rules! Owain (talk) 10:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It won't happen because it would be revisionism. Just zis Guy you know? 20:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Revisionism? Hardly. Listing the same units in the same country on the same template is not revisionism. Notice how there is an Association of British Counties, not separate associations for England, Scotland, Wales, &c. Owain (talk) 20:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow, a pressure group exists!  So obviously we must immediately adopt their agenda. Not. Just zis Guy you know? 20:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No no no, I wasn't saying that at all. I was merely pointing out that there are sets of things called counties across the entire of Britain. Why things need to be constantly split up into England, Scotland and Wales escapes me. Owain (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because their histories have almost nothing in common before 1889. Welsh and Irish counties were created by assorted English governments, Scots counties weren't and have quite different origins. The idea that we should ignore the seven or eight centuries of difference just because there was a period a tenth as long when they were much the same just doesn't fly. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 23:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just so.  County of Fife my arse ;-) Just zis Guy you know? 23:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *consensus knock* to Angus.  Canæn  02:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger