Talk:Historical background of the New Testament/Archive 9

message: What follows is a lengthy, & hopefully not too long-winded, comment that does not fit well into what has been said recently; I have been working on it offline, rather than following the discussion here. I submit it here (& not in email to a few) because I beleive it may be of interest to everyone, & perhaps offer some help in this discussion.
From the beginning of this mediation, I have been struggling with one specific issue in the attempt to be fair & objective to all parties: that I know something about the material being 
discussed. I have been fighting the urge to post my opinion to the talk page because in part there have already been too many cooks in this kitchen, but also becaue I said I would was only 
participating in to help in the process, not in the writing of this article.
However, Tuesday I realised that my reluctance was, in part, hobbling my ability to mediate in this dispute. Content & process are mixed together here, & I can't address process without discussing content. So I'm taking a risk here by going back on my word & discussing the content of this article, & hopefully I can make clear exactly what I think is going on here, where the process is breaking down, & how preconceptions concerning the content is responsible for this. There are any number of points I could address, but I am limiting myself to only 4, because each one reflects one of the positions that each of the 4 people in this mediation has taken.
1. CheeseDreams at one point asserted that there were a number of messianic movements in Palestine at this time. The minute I read this, I knew exactly what she was talking about, because there is evidence to support her assertion:
:A. Suetonius, in the Twelve Caesars ("Vespasian", ch. 4), mentions that immediately before the Jewish War, "An ancient superstition was current in the East, that out of Judea at this time would come the rulers of the world. ... the rebellious Jews, who read it as referring to themselves, murdered their governor, routed the governor of Syria when he came down to restore order, and captured an Eagle." (Robert Graves' translation)
:It is hard not to see this "ancient superstition" as a rumor of either Jesus Christ or perhaps a charismatic rival, eager to build on the chilliastic hopes of the locals. And having read a few collections of the non-Biblical notices of Jesus, I am puzzled that this has not attracted any scholarly attention.
:B. To this period, as well as to the previous 2 centuries, are dated a number of apocalyptic writings composed by Jewish, & later Christian, writers. (e.g., The Book of Enoch, Testament of the Patriarch, numerous examples in the Dead Sea Scrolls)
:This points to a wide interest in mystical & visionary interpretations of the Bible at the time. It is possible that these works were influenced by the existence of the first native ruling family in centuries, in which case these works would be a way to indirectly address the policies & issues of this dynasty. At the least, the presence of kings in lands of ancient Israel & Judea would lead to the rise of religious who modelled themselves after the ancient prophets.
:C. Acts (18:24-19:7) mentions a contemporary of Paul named Apollos, who is described as a follower of John the Baptist. (My translation simply states that Apollos was a follower of "John", but the Anchor Bible translation clearly indicates that John the Baptist is meant.)
:This is an intreguing passage, for it demonstrates that there was a sect that followed the teachings of John the Baptist long after not only John's death, but even Jesus. The account in the gospels lead us to believe that after John's death, his followers all flocked to follow Jesus, but this passage indicates that at least some remained faithful to their founder's memory, & it is possible these later became the Mandeans CheeseDreams talks about.
Now I can't say how CheeseDreams came to her conclusion, so I am going to put myself in her place, & explain how I would come to this conclusion. When I read, I often only remember the conclusions that I draw from my reading, & not the actual facts from my reading. To explain, had I read these primary sources 5 years ago, I doubt I could rely on them to defend my belief that there were a number of messianic movements; but I would not be any less convinced that this conclusion was valid. (Fortunately in this case, I had encountered these facts in my reading recently, & had taken useful notes that helped me relocate them.)
Do these facts prove that there were a number of messianic movcements? I don't know. But I would argue that from them that one could conclude that there were, & that if this is not the case, then further research is required. (Here I'll admit that I'm not very well read in the secondary literature, & there may be one or more authorities who have stated their conclusions 
on this question. The movement led by John the Baptist is a mysterious presence that clearly is important to the creation of Christianity, but IIRC the only works that I could find that 
discussed this issue were items like an exhaustive monograph written in German or were otherwise inaccessible to me at the time.)
So what I feel we have here is a case where someone is making a valid objection, yet at the moment of the discussion cannot defend her or his position. Should this objection be dismissed? I touch upon this problem more below.
2. Amigne believes that his opinions in this article are being ignored by other contributors, in particular Slrubenstein. Slrubenstein in response has made the point that the participants 
in this article should have a good working knowledge of the details of the period & the material. I agree with him about this, & can comisserate with him over the anguish at finding myself in a dispute where I have relied on solid scholarly works, while the other parties' sources are far less impressive. However, I am troubled with his insistence that the writings of the New Testament should be approached only as historical documents, & any religious views be ignored. This would mean that any consideration of Form Criticism (developed by Martin Dibelius & Rudolf Bultmann in the later 19th & early 20th centuries) would need be excluded. Form Criticism was an attempt by Protestant scholars to purge the New Testament of myth (what they called the Catholic rituals & mystery) in order to get to what they believed was the truth. While this approach did not achieve the goals they had intended, it is important in showing that the Gospels, rather than being naive accounts of fact, are actually very sophisticated documents that were written with intention & (in some cases) considerable literary style.
Obviously, this concern with NT material is outside the scope of this article; however, it is a case where not understanding the material can trip people up. And yet, this is a case very similar to that of CD above: I think I know what Slrubenstein intends -- avoiding the question, which is rooted in belief & not fact, that God appeared on earth during this period -- yet when his words are objectively & inflexibly examined, he's wrong here. Just as FT2 was wrong about the original form of John, & Amgine was about the terminology of "king messiah" & priest messiah". Thoughtful people are using words inadvertantly in an imprecise manner to express important ideas; St Augustine's dictum "Hold to the idea & the words will follow" is being proven false here.
This period is a difficult topic not only to get every detail correct -- which I think requires you to be a divinity student who has written your thesis on this period -- but also to be NPOV 
-- it is very controversial. I'm not a divinity student, just a guy who has read some books on the topic, but I am aware just how controversial it is. Look at James the Just, & the POVs described there concerning the reliquary that was recently discovered: experts from two different parts of the Israeli government disagree whether the artefact is authentic or not. 
(Personally, I believe that there is some conscious intent to discredit a possible proof in the existence of Jesus, but the abundance of forgeries & inauthentic materials floating around 
that deal with this period argues that one cannot be too cautious in accepting any artefact as authentic.)
So if we all accept the fact that we are not experts on this topic, then we must then admit that each of us will be wrong here some of the time. And when that happens, I feel we should then 
accept each other's admission of error graciously so that we can move on; if that is not part of Wikilove, then it ought to be.
3. FT2 has pointed out that the editing process is going too fast, & that attention is needed to the general shape of the article. This is a point that I am of two minds about this.
Personally, if I think I have a point that is not being listened to but I know is right, I will take time offline to research the matter, & verify that what I believe is right actually is. 
Remember, articles on Wikipedia have no date when they must be -- or are considered -- finished & immutable. There is plenty of time to do things right, & even if you take a break of a few 
weeks from an article, at the least the time gives you some distance from the issue, & perhaps the editor who is opposing you has moved on to other articles to edit.
On the other hand, this article does not seem to address what I, as a somewhat informed reader, would like to find. Let's take the issue of sexuality at this period, for example. (What follows is only an illustration, & not for discussion here; if you want to debate my views, please contact me either in email or on my Talk page.) Personally, I think Paul of Tarsus was a prude, which is why he wrote a number of things condemning most forms of sexuality (IIRC, he begrudgingly condoned sex within marriage, but only in order to produce offspring). Yet because of his stature within Christianity, & the later respect given to his writings, these views were considered the opinion of Jesus, & therefore God, & enforced by the representatives of organized Christianity.
So if someone wanted to debate my opinion, what would this article explain about the views of sexuality people had at that time? It would be nice if it explained how Paul's views either reflected or contradicted those of his fellow Jews, Greek-speaking neighbors, or later Christians. (There is evidence that celebacy or abstinence was praised  if not widely practiced in the early church, & some evidence that this practice was independent of what Paul wrote.) This is a matter no one here has mentioned.
Again, I am not advocating that this topic be included in the article, I am offering an example of what a reader might reasonably expect to find discussed in this article. However, reading it, all I find is a rather detailed although praiseworthy history of Judaism in the last century BC & the first century AD. I feel that this article is covering the expected ground, but without showing an understanding for what information needs to be provided or why.
4. Slrubenstein has argued that this article ought to mention Jesus. I here agree with him, but for reasons I haven't seen him set forth. The most important one is that the material that 
discusses Jesus -- the Gospels, the Epistles, the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and other early Christian literature -- all make use of a vocabulary that is baffling to the modern reader -- who is the person that will be reading this article. Terms like "the Son of Man", "Jesus of Nazareth" (also translated "Jesus the Nazarene"), the claims made that Jesus was descended from David (which would appear to contradict the later belief that Jesus was either the son of God or God the Son).
But mentioning Jesus doesn't mean arguing that he existed: for the writers of the NT, he did, & that should be the end of the matter; Jesus was a personage that they described, & with care & 
intent, with language & ideas that I hope this article would explain. His existence is as much of an issue as the existence of Helen, Achilles or Paris in a hypothetical article Cultural and historical background of the Iliad. Unfortunately, the issues of religion (or the freedom from it) have intruded & distracted everyone from the goal of writing a useful article.
I don't know if these comments help the mediation move forward, especially because it is clear that some movement in this discussion has occured without me. But I felt that I needed to express them, if for no other reason to reveal my biases & remove them as distractions from the task at hand. If these comments have not been at all useful, I would be happy to step down; if they make sense, maybe then my advice at this point would too: let's start with a clean slate concerning this article, archive this Talk page -- my comments included -- without making a summary, & ask yourselves what should this article discuss in order for it to be useful. -- llywrch 06:28, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The mediator's comment 

message: :Some people allege that Paul of Tarsus was a gnostic
:This would explain why
::He hardly mentioned Jesus as a physical real person
::He had disdain for sexuality (as gnostics viewed the body as evil, and where highly ascestic)
:There is evidence of gnosticism in Mark, especially Secret Mark (whose very existance implies gnosticism), constant reference is made to "secrets" and "secret teachings"
:As such, Mark did not necessarily believe Jesus existed. Likewise matthew and Luke. If they were gnostic, they would have had no objection to incorporating material from other religions, thus explaining their non-matching additions (such as genealogies, for example), to a gnostic, history doesn't matter, its the teachings that can be made from the story that is important, not the truth of the story. 
:In addition, the Gospel of John is thought by some to be a forgery by Iranaeaus for anti-heresy propaganda purposes. He uses it extensively to address the issues of his time, and the first paragraph is a direct attack on his arch-enemy Arius. "In the beginning, there was god. And with god was the word" which discounts Arius - so why did Arius hold his opinion, if it was blatantly denied by the gospels, unless it wasn't.
:So, I don't see why we should think that the Gospel writers believed Jesus was real.
:Nethertheless, since the title of this article can be paraphrased as The background that Jesus knew (which unfortunately assumes historicity), I don't see what the importance of Jesus is to the article. CheeseDreams 08:32, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and my claim about the existance of the Mandaeans is due to the fact that "Mandaean" is a modern synonym for Nazorean (they still call themselves "Nazorean). This is pointed out in the summary. CheeseDreams 08:34, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to mediator from CheeseDreams 

message: (editors editing this version article should not edit the others)
/OriginallyFT2
Editors contributing to this version
#CheeseDreams 00:52, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article that was FT2s version 

message: I note that CheeseDreams has changed the heading "Mediator's Response" to "Ex-Mediator's Response".  Does that mean that she has rejected Llywrch as a mediator?  john k 02:15, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Both Amgine, and I, no longer consider Llywrch impartial. Therefore the position of Llywrch as mediator is untenable. CheeseDreams 11:35, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: I find myself particularly troubled by the current trend in the discussion of this article, and the mediation. I have determined it would be in my personal best interests to withdraw from involvement in the mediation, and thus (to avoid possible conflicts) the article and topic on Wikipedia. - Amgine 19:54, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also appalled by this change in action by the mediator, and the lack of discussion by the mediator with me during this mediation. I hereby withdraw from the mediation, as I do not have confidence in the neutrality of the mediator. CheeseDreams 21:29, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation status