Talk:Dubay v. Wells

message: : 'Although the two discussed adoption, Wells ultimately decided to have the baby'
Surely that should say 'abortion', not 'adoption'? 81.149.205.130 (talk) 21:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: no, they discussed putting it up for adoption 24.59.148.187 (talk) 05:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Adoption?

message: : The standard format for referring to legal cases in the US is to have the case names separated by a v. rather than by a vs., and also to have the entire name in italics. For this reason, I redirected User:HalfDome's article from Roe vs. Wade for Men to Roe v. Wade for Men.
:Problems with my redirect: The original article had nothing on the discussion page but it did have four items on the history page, all showing edits made by HalfDome. I hoped that the redirect was going to redirect these pages, but that didn't happen. Did I do something wrong? Is there a way to redirect the history page? Interlingua  talk email 18:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reasons for Redirect 

message: People on both sides seem to get hung up on the mechanics, and it shows in this article and the links it references. This may all be my POV, but this article is not NPOV either.
Whether a woman has the right to abort or not is not in question. It is whether men share the same rights, the popular position seems to be not. Beyond that things get murky quickly, NOW argues that this is a nefarious attempt to control women, and Mens rights groups argue that the current state is exploitive.
The Dubay case seems to be a poor test, but there are scenarios that I am sure would draw better consensus. If a man and woman agree to have sexual relations, and agree that they do not want children, and she agrees that in the event of a unintended pregnancy she will abort, why should a man not be allowed the same right? for the same time frame? To maintain the original agreement. While physically she can choose to continue the pregnancy, why should the man not have the option of "aborting" his rights and obligations. I do believe the key is there, for this to be gender equal a man who aborts responsibilities and obligations must be simultaneously aborting any rights in regard to the child.
This is not at all about whether the woman can keep the child or her rights in regard to it.
As the law current stands a woman can intentionally deceive a man, become pregnant as a result, and the man become obligated to care for the child for the subsequent 18 years.
In short this article needs no more POV from OhSusanne, or probably as likely myself. The article may however benefit from being more tightly scoped to the subject of rights and not actions. Evengrift 20:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  It is about Rights not Mechanics 

message: This article's former title, "Roe v. Wade for Men," is an informal name for this case. Its actual name is Dubay v. Wells, and, thus, I have changed the article's title to main consistency with the titling convention of other articles in :Category:United States case law. -01:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article retitle

message: Okay, so the United States Court of Appeals decided to dismiss the case. Does this mean the case is over? If that is the case, then the beginning of the article should be changed from "Is a legal case" to "Was a legal case". Addressing the case in present tense implies that there is further action to be taken. I don't have a very intimate knowledge of court procedure, so perhaps someone who knows more about this sort of thing could shed some light on the situation?  Scorpio3002 (talk) 20:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Case dismissed... okay, now what? 

message: From the sourced court decision: "The Fourteenth Amendment gives no succor to a disgruntled sexual partner who
fails to reach accord over these important matters, nor even to one who is misled by the actions of
a private party." (Emphasis mine.)  The issue is not whether the woman intentionally misled the man, the issue is whether a misled man has the rights demanded by the plaintiff.  Blackworm (talk) 18:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Misleading" 

message: Er, what? This takes far too many of the plaintiff's arguments at face value. It is they who claim that this is an issue of laws being applied unevenly - to write "The specific legal challenge in the case is based on whether Michigan's child support laws apply to men and women equally. If not, then it is argued that they violate Equal Protection" is begging the question. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:00, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, my reading is that that is a true, encyclopedic statement about what the legal challenge was and what the plaintiffs argued and which does not beg the question.  Maybe you could further clarify your thinking, though.  71.240.252.226 (talk) 23:12, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: This article has been tagged since 2009, due to reference issues. 
When I stumbled upon it, the article was mostly referenced by articles from a Men’s Rights website, specifically the Men’s Rights group that sued on Dubay’s behalf, and from court documents.  The Men’s Rights info could maybe be used as Men’s Rights opinion on this case, but only if supplemented by reliable neutral secondary sources.   Court documents should not be used in accordance with WP:BLPPRIMARY and WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE. While it could be argued that Matt Dubay willingly became a public figure when he went public with his cause of “financial abortion for men” his ex-girlfriend and the child in question are not public figures.  I removed the name of the ex-girlfriend and the initials of the child. I also suggest the article title be changed to something that does not include his ex-girlfriend’s last name due to BLP concerns.  None of the reliable sources I could locate specifically named the lawsuit “Dubay v Wells”.  While the court documents show his lawsuit was in fact named “Dubay v Wells”, the lawsuit was dismissed and was not named as “Dubay v Wells” in the reliable sources.  In reliable secondary sources, this case was described as a child support dispute filed by Matt Dubay that was being dubbed by Men's Rights activists as “Roe v Wade for men” so I think the article name should be changed to “Matt Dubay child support case”,  to avoid BLP concerns regarding identifying the ex-girlfriend by referring to lawsuit with her last name and the last name of the child in question, neither of whom are public figures and who are not named in reliable secondary sources found online.
Here are the reliable sources I was able to find still available online regarding this case:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11731580/ns/us_news-life/t/mens-activists-launch-roe-v-wade-men/#.U5PcOZRdXBc
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-08-fatherhood-suit_x.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4789090.stm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/03/14/right-cause-wrong-approach/
--BoboMeowCat (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Because no one has voiced any objections and the previous title appeared to constitute a BLP violation, title was changed to "Matt Dubay child support case". --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:34, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

text: This idea of removing the names of parties who are not public figures does not appear to be followed in the articles of any other legal case. This is my objection. --Jacob's Crackers (talk) 18:26, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Because consensus is not reached on the issue, I will revert the edits and the move. I hope this is OK with everyone. --Jacob's Crackers (talk) 16:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference concerns, BLP concerns, and proposed title change:  

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Matt Dubay child support case. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100527132809/http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/Opinions/lawsonpdf/06-11016.pdf to http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/opinions/lawsonpdf/06-11016.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110807050149/http://www.elle.com/Life-Love/Society-Career-Power/The-Parent-Trap-Paternal-Rights-and-Abortion to http://www.elle.com/Life-Love/Society-Career-Power/The-Parent-Trap-Paternal-Rights-and-Abortion
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060826000911/http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=local&id=3981352 to http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=local&id=3981352
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081219193158/http://www.reproductiveequality.com/ to http://www.reproductiveequality.com/
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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)