Talk:Five-Percent Nation/Archive 1

message: ...I'm Allah Universal, standing member of the Nation of Gods and Earths...If anyone has serious inquiries regarding what we teach, what we do and don't advocate, what we strive to achieve in this world, or even if you're just curious, you can reach me directly at universalliving@gmail.com, or allahuniversal@betarecords.com...Please be sure to leave our name, so that I can respond to your appropriately. No inquiry will be rejected, and all will be addressed respectfully.  All questions will be answered to the best of my ability...Peace...Allah Universal
64.139.234.199 07:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peace... 

message: What a bunch of racist retarded bullshit. Be honest that you hate white and Jews, you smarmy retards. The most important thing is a lot of popular rappers follow this racist nonsense. Whenning 04:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First off, not all that many "popular rappers" follow the Nation of Gods and Earths. A few rappers, who aren't all that popular anymore (Wu-Tang Clan, Busta Rhymes, and Big Daddy Kane. Second, I don't know where Jews came from here, but only the idea of white supremacy is the only thing really attacked. As for smarmy, no, these are good people in the same vein as Orthodox Jews and Shia Muslims. By the way, "retarded"? "Retards"? What is wrong with you? ReverendG 07:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your response is amazingly intellectually dishonest. Wu-Tang Clan and Busta Rhymes aren't popular? It's far more than that, as well: Rakim, Brand Nubian, and many others. Wu-Tang has sold millions of albums; just because someone isn't currently on the Top 40 charts doesn't mean they aren't successful. Where Jews come in is that it's well-known that typical people drawn to this ridiculous pseudo-religion/quasi-cult that you ascribe ridiculously grandiose titles to are anti-Semitic and racist. That's why at the recent New Black Panther Party protests in response to the shooting of Sean Bell people were encouraging other blacks not to patronize white-owned businesses. I'd ask what's wrong with you, "reverend". Whenning 23:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is bullshit 

message: Instead of arguing over whether or not one agrees with 5% ideology, what can we do to get this article NPOV?  It would be nice to include a section on the 5% take on the "white devil" issue, but research is so scant on this topic that it's hard to determine.
Also, the "in-depth scholarly article" is not so in-depth, as I've discovered in my own research, so I've changed that.  While the information is good, he glosses over some stuff. Knittatron 00:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there anyway to request moderation on this article from the greater Wiki community? I have attempted to make substantive changes to this work over time and feel constantly thwarted by a small but dedicated band of 5% apologists. Ason Abdullah 03:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty new to WP, so any suggestions you have would be very helpful. I'll try to request moderation. I think that it is helpful to have Fiver Percenters work on this article, but the article needs to reflect the most objective presentation of NGO.  This is hard for this article due to the sheer lack of scholarly sources on the topic, all of which treat NGO as a culture/way of life/political movement OR a religion, but not both, for whatever reason.Knittatron 17:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The official website has virtually no information.  This seems like a futile task.  How do you document something that has less documentation than the latest failed video game?Deathwish238 00:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing POV tag?

message: I added this tag because while there is some good info in this article, there are no sources whatsoever.  I am currently overwhelmed by work and school, but I do have some sources as I have done research on this topic. It may take me awhile to dig them up. Knittatron 17:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Added Unreferenced Tag

message: The offical website looks like it was made by amateurs....and it contains little information!  If you can't learn about The Nation of Gods and Earths from their offical website where can you?  It seems like it has more advertisments than anything else.
Check it out if you haven't already: http://www.allahsnation.net/ 
The only thing it has is a page called What We Teach...and it even has a dead link at the bottom. ---Deathwish238 16:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  website 

message: I will be updating the article main space shortly with sourcing for all that I am adding, please be patient. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent expansion

message: I removed the PoV tag, please place any pov based issues here for discussion. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 20:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: PoV

message: The youtube video it pointed to is no longer available.
*Five Percent Buddhist Nation  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.212.105.219 (talk) 19:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed the Five Percent Buddhist Nation Link

message: Can someone explain the OR violation here?  I get why the one section is OR (comparing 5% to mainstream Islam; no sources and it looks like an original essay), but most of the rest of the article seems pretty consistent with what is published about these folks. csloat (talk) 05:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  OR 

message: Uh, per the presidential unit citation page, only military units are eligible for the presidential unit citation. Mr. Smith couldn't have received it, though he could have belonged to a unit that received it. 216.98.233.245 (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Problem 

message: What does it mean to "punitively liberate?" Is this a term used by the organization itself? This would seem to mean that the organization "sets people free while punishing them," or "punishes them by setting them free."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.192.211 (talk) 20:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  Not a single Five Percenter I've ever known or any writing I've come across has used such a term.  Where it could have possibly come from is beyond me.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of Five-Percent title Section 

message: Hello. Just letting you all know I changed some of the occurrences of the word "Allah" to the name Clarence as, outside of the sect, he was still being referred to as Clarence and not "Allah." Now, I may be wrong about this, and maybe he legally changed his name to Allah and people used that to refer to him even outside the sect, and if that is the case, feel free to revert my edits as needed. The only other edit I made was what seems to be a spelling error. I changed "adapt" to "adopt" in the line "he adopted the name Allah." Again, if I am wrong here and it should in fact say "he adapted the name Allah (as in adapted it to his own preference)", then again, please feel free to revert my edits as you see fit. It appears in the history that I made three edits but really it was just one....that I happened to do in three sections. lol. Either way, yeah. Just letting you know. Take care all! (^_^) --Ksskimaan 01:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You got kinda carried away.  The two schools in New York City are genuinely referred to as "Allah Schools."  This is clearly marked on both buildings.  I made the appropriate edits.Kuahmel (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Explaining edits

message: While I do not see there being any official 5%er or Nation of Gods and Earths website (because they have no centralized leader or location) the Allah Team's main website should be included as the first of the links because it gives us the best scholar like views that are widely held by most Gods and Earths. The site is much less dogmatic than that of many 5%er websites. I have, also, yet to see the site crash like the site that was previously first.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As addressed above, the Nation of Gods and Earths has never taken a position of agreeing wholeheartedly with Allah Team claims.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

text: What exactly is your interest here?  This article is not about the Allah Team.  If one doesn't exist already, start one yourself.  Also, Wikipedia is not a general discussion soapbox, but a place to summarize reliable, accurate information about a topic.Kuahmel (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New external link added 

message: I took the opinion (wherein it states Clarence 13 X calling himself God is the same as Father, Divine) off because George Baker (Father, Divine) did not declare himself to be God, his followers did. Clarence 13 X did it himself. This is a great difference, otherwise that would would need two citations to be a fact and I have yet to see such. I added a citation from a non-5%er based site to provide less of a one sided opinion and view, and in that sense it should not be taken off.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  I deleted an entry to the article and added a needed citation 

message: Both the Math and Alphabet have many conflicting versions within the Nation, where some numbers and letters have different principles attached to them from other versions.  Hence, to post exhaustive lists of any one version as the gospel source makes no sense.  Besides, it's generally OR as there is no reliable source in existence, and in many cases people who post them don't even spell a lot of them correctly.  This is why I scrubbed off both full listings in favor of examples. People reading this article can still get the point.  Without protesting too much, I think this is the way both should stay.Kuahmel (talk) 03:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I will concede that I question your agenda in saying such things. (Personal axe to grind, maybe?) Maybe you're better served taking that up on a site where Gods and Earths congregate. For the record, they're official enough to have plenty of readily available material written on them.Kuahmel (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is some really sad shit :( 72.228.177.92 (talk) 00:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supreme Mathematics and Supreme Alphabet 

message: The first time this phrase is used it hyperlinks to an article about Vikings; later in the article it seems to refer to people with dark skin, 'black' people.  Which is it? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Blackman" 

message: I really think the section that explains the difference between the NGE and traditional Islam should be restored. Also, there should be some reference to the acceptance and membership white Five Percenters such as Barkim. Peace. (MuzikJunky 06:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs a source for the comparison or it is just original research which is not permitted. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section had been there for the longest until just recently. It's a very relevant section since the NGE is most frequently compared to Muslims. And there are writings in print and electronically on the subject. If no one else gets to it first, I'll restore it and cite works soon enough.Kuahmel (talk) 23:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened to...?

message: This comment is to the people, moderators, editors, creators, sponsors or what have you, who maintain the wikipedia site for information viewed by the world. In regards to the Nation of Gods and Earths definition that is presently being discussed by wikipedia and Born King, wikipedia should know that Born King is an active member of the Nation of Gods and Earths. He has been with this Nation for over 25 years and has fought for us in the courts in numerous trials to establish our legitimacy. I myself have been a part of this Nation for over 25 years as well and do agree that our definition needs to be right and exact for the people to see. Please review the matter being discussed as we come to the wikipedia site in all humbleness  and concern to correct this matter. 
As has been stated the present definition is not who and what we are about overall. Our story should be told by us because if you want to know about a person or what that person represents then you should go to the person and ask him; not others who are seeking to destroy who we are and what we represent. This is a matter that is very serious to us, which is why we take the time as well as the patience to explain what we mean to those who don't know us such as wikipedia. Everything that needs to be said has already been said basically. I think wikipedia needs to take an unbiased look at the talk and allow us to define ourselves so that there won't be any misunderstandings to anyone as to who and what we are. Thank you and Peace.
Intell29 (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, that's not how Wikipedia works. What's presented on these pages need to be based on outside articles, or books like Knowledge of Self, In The Name Of Allah, and others. A man proclaiming that he's part of the 5% and simply typing in his experiences is considered Original Research and not verifiable, even if it is true. If that same man were to type up his experiences and post them to a dedicated website that meets the criteria or they came up in a periodical like Time magazine, or even The Five Percenter or Word newspaper, that's verifiable, because anyone can go back and fact check that. The system here is made to prevent random people (including those who are NOT 5%) from just writing whatever all willy-nilly.Kuahmel (talk) 00:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment by Intelligence 

message: There's only one online source...and it's mostly ads.  Nice. Deathwish238 09:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A book would probably be your best way to get a look at the situation of the Nation of Gods and Earths. I too was surprised by the lack of online sources. However I feel some of the books cited are very good in their examination. I will attempt to expand further depending on how recent events unfold. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that the reason for lack of online information on the Nation of Gods and Earths, is that the publication of those lessons to the internet is said to be taboo.  Reasons behind this is that some Gods believe that a person seeking lessons should have to put forth the effort to find a mentor to learn from.  A boastful trait of among members of the Nation is to be able to trace his lineage in the nation back to the Father or one of the First 9 born, thereby validating the correctness of his teachings.  Publishing the degrees online would spawn an unnecessary number of phonies giving out innacurate or disinformation due to ingenuine intrest in the group and enable people to cause harm or confusion to innocent people honestly seeking enlightenment.  That is the reason why the truly best way to find out about the NGE, is to go to a gathering or, if physically possible, visit Allah's School in Mecca. --MaKebA 01:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: There is not a lack of information about the 5% Nation online. The problem here is the article is named: "The Nation of Gods and Earths" when this is the name of an organization within the 5% Nation of Islam. There is no proof that Clarence 13 X Smith named the group this. This name came up long after he was murdered. The greatest sites to use as references are theblackgod.com and allahteam.com respectively. They have a host of articles on that site that one could use to make this less of an opinionated entry.--CHAY IBREE ALLAH (talk) 00:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, "'The Nation of Gods and Earths'...is the name of an organization within the 5% Nation of Islam" is a position argued chiefly by the Allah Team, a group that openly disagrees with the NGE at just about every turn.  The Allah Team cannot consider itself an innocently objective group, as most of the positions they take are matters of dispute.  That aside, when it comes to the public at large, the terms "Nation Of Gods And Earths" and "5% Nation" refer to the same body of people.Kuahmel (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Your personal feelings about the NGE and the Allah Team are irrelevant here.  The bottom line is  Allah Team publications are not a reliable source for any information regarding the Nation of Gods and Earths, as they are about putting a political spin on the facts, similar to if one was reading the Weekly Standard or The Nation.  The Allah Team only represent their own group's position and that's it.Kuahmel (talk) 20:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only one online source? 

message: I would like to know why you undid my recent edit of the NOGE lede page and other edits. you posted nothing on the talk page and i had to search around even find out who deleted my edits.  The NOGE was not founded by clarence 13X.  Clarence 13X has only a 31/2 year history. from the time Clarence entered the mosque and recieved the 13x to the day he was excommunicated out the mosque 3 1/2 years later and dropped the X.  i dont know what wikipedia's policy is in regard to the name Allah.  Mayor lindsey called him Allah and gave him a scholl that still exists at 2122 7th ave. Everyone called him Allah because that is his name and not a title for him or for the NOGe.  The family name or surname for the NOGE is Allah. Wikipedia has simply been mis informed and and has bought into the false paradigm that Clarence 13x is somehow the true identity and Allah is a non existent entity or simply a nickname of sorts  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bornking7 (talk • contribs) 17:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The first sentence as given by you was "The Nation of Gods and Earths, sometimes referred to as NOGE, the Five-Percent Nation, or the Five Percenters is a God Centered Culture founded in 1964 in the Harlem section of the borough of Manhattan in New York City by Allah." According to WP:COMMON NAME we should use the most common version of a name. That's not always easy to be clear about, and a figure such as Clarence 13X is known by several names including his "real" name of Clarence Jowars Smith. However the article on him is called Clarence 13X, and that seems to be the most widely used form of the name. Calling him "Allah" would simply be confusing, and of course, to many readers it would be false or even blasphemous. You use the expression "God Centered Culture", which I have already added in the section below with an explanation. To include it in the opening sentence would simply confuse the reader, as the phrase means nothing to most people. However, it could be added with clarification in the lead section. Paul B (talk) 18:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Allah

message: I started putting "citation needed" tags into certain places in the article where the lack of support is particularly glaring, but there are so many uncited statements in this article, it would take a while to tag each one.  The article cannot keep a statement like the one about Mayor John Lindsay "giving" a school to NGE without offering support for the statement. The vagueness of the term "giving" aside, the article must include support for factual statements.  If this particular statement is indeed true, there will be some sort of documentation: news article, MOU (Memorandum of Understanding)--a document often used by the NY Board of Ed, or even just a letter from the mayor.  Let me remind the writers of these statements: without supporting their statements, anyone could write anything they want. Thus, unsupported statements should either have citations added to them or they should be removed from the article.
Moreover, I want to second the concern about the dearth of internet sources.  This information has to be online somewhere.  For example, Google's online books??Btaylor0000 (talk) 02:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations Needed 

message: I think per the neutrality dispute it would be good to get some citations for the artists mentioned as current and former Five Percenters and "Associates" of the NOGE. It would also be good to define what constitutes an "Associate" since this is nebulous- artists that ran with the same groups as other artists who actually were Five Percenters? Rappers who have occasionally referenced something to do with the NOGE but have otherwise never indicated membership? There's a lengthy list of artists who definitely were affiliated with the NOGE in some form, especially during the 90s, and given that they were generally fairly vocal about this (Rakim et. al.) it shouldn't be too hard to find citations for these artists. Everyone else is speculation unless they've confirmed it somewhere, and I don't think a single reference to the Supreme Alphabet  in one verse on one track in an album from 1994 constitutes an "association". Those references belong in the "Influences and interactions" section, yes, as the influence of NOGE language and concept on 1980s/90s hip hop discourse is interesting, but they don't belong in a list of adherents. I've started by cross-referencing the artists' pages and have noted, for example, Busta Rhymes who no longer identifies as an adherent of the NOGE. Pending citations for other artists being found, names should be removed per Verifiability in the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. 124.148.183.223 (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to those who helped provide citations for the Notable and former members and associates of the Five Percent Nation section. I'm untagging this section for Citations Needed as there's only one outstanding. The language has also been cleared up, so I suggest a removal of the Neutrality tag as well since I don't feel that any of the information left violates any of Wiki's policies on Neutrality.124.148.157.133 (talk) 10:09, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations for notable current and former members and associates of the 5% 

message: Apparently they have at least one notable white member, Michael Muhammad Knight. In addition, the article about Knight claims that the group has or had a white elder. It'd probably be worth mentioning as this article currently gives the impression that NOGE is solely an all-black group. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 02:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous members

message: This talk page is now as long as it is years old. Quite unwieldy at this point. Can someone archive it as Archive 2 and start a new one? 
On a side note, the constant editing to note all this silly Hip-Hop stuff and for Five Percenters to slather OR all over the place and call it "truth" got out of hand a long time ago. Kuahmel (talk) 06:16, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to archive this talk page

message: Leaving the archiving to someone else; however, someone had put "anal beads" for number 7 and "butterfingers" for number 11.  Found this link: http://www.blackapologetics.com/fivepercentfaq.html and corrected based on that, removing number 11 and setting "God" as 7. ProfMontgomery (talk) 03:00, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Supreme Mathematics corrections

message: The very first paragraph explains the 5% etymology... but it's unclearly written. It says 10% know the truth, and that those people want to hide the truth from the rest... then it references another 5% that know the truth and want to share... however that makes a total of 15% of people that know the truth, meaning the first sentence is contradicted.
But I can't really think of great way to word it, so...
Ijmitchell (talk) 22:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yakub didn't do his stuff in a lab somewhere. It was on the isle of Patmos. Paul B (talk) 13:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Awkward math/explanation in very first paragraph.

message: Ijmitchell, Basically it works like this. 85% of the people are the blind who don't know the truth, and will eventually destroy themselves because of their ignorance. 10 percent are the people who know the truth, but deceive the masses (the 85%). This includes Christians and orthodox Muslims, and ...the white devil.
Of course, since Black people are collectively God, White people are collectively the Devil. It only makes sense. So basically, according to the 5%er, If you are of European descent, you are EVIL, no buts about it. Sorry my fair-skinned fellows. You ARE THE DEVIL. This belief is not unique to the 5%ers, though, it is carried on from the Nation of Islam. But its okay, they justify the generalization quite effectively.
You see, about 8,400 years ago, in order to put an end to disobedience, Allah allowed Yakub to graft/create the devil (white man). According to both the NOI and 5%ers, white people were CREATED BY AN EVIL 150 YR OLD SCIENTIST NAMED YAKUB . You really don't know how bad I deeply wish I was making this up. YES, THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT. AN EVIL SCIENTIST CREATED THE EVIL RACE OF WHITE DEVILS IN A LAB SOMEWHERE. 
The five percenter's goal (or to them, inevitable accomplishment) is to teach the 'truth' and save the 85% from destruction. 
Now I give props where props are due:
5%ers are generally very very articulate, and usually have very well developed oral skills.
They're also usually very well mannered, except when they get around white people.
They usually respect women, despite the fact that they believe that women are utterly inferior to men.
They generally have a great deal of self worth and self respect. They ARE God, right?
But other than that my elite friends, YOUR RELIGION IS STUPID. Sorry for being juvenile. And I know some kid out there probably thinks my ideas are just as stupid, but I disagree, and I don't care.   Topbookclub ✉ Aug 8, 2013
:Yakub didn't do his stuff in a lab somewhere. It was on the isle of Patmos. Paul B (talk) 13:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "What up, God"

message: Kuahmel, the problem with sourcing the Five Percent Nation is that they are intentionally secretive about some of their policies, beliefs, and practices. There is no way of accurately writing a section in the article that will lay out the specifics of the whole black gods and white devils controversy because they will be very careful to avoid it, or may even delete the section. While it is true they associate with whites it is common practice and doctrine to consider them to be permanently at a lower status. This article does a very poor job at addressing this issue. No other group considered to be in the realm of religious discussion would get a pass from answering these questions. To maintain their image in a positive light, their views of white people, which are documented in the "120 Lessons" are intentionally left out. (View 120 Lessons at this website http://www.ciphertheory.net/supremewisdom.pdf). Make no mistake, the Five Percent nation does believe and teach that white people are the devil created by an evil scientist, or as they often refer to them as, "savages" who can be taught the "supreme wisdom", but will never be able to be a "GOD" because they are not black. This is their essential philosophy concerning this issue and is at the forefront of their ideology, doctrine, and inner discussions. To openly say or promote this ideology would be unwise of them as they would be publicly labeled as a hate group and it would be hard for them to impress their ideas onto new members. Again, writing an article on the Five Percent Nation is very difficult as certain aspects are secretive. Imagine if the KKK were to allow black into their group, treat them kindly, but still believe and adhere to their white supremacist ideology. Well, that's how the NGE operates. They truly believe they are supreme to whites, and no amount of semantics and article doctoring is going to change that. If you are a white member of the NGE you are basically considered as their wild pet who needs to be trained, but they will never consider you to be on their level of understanding. Similar to the human/dog relationship. Harsh words, but essentially true. Good luck to anyone trying to add or edit this article. You have your hands full.  Topbookclub ✉
:Not sure how long ago you wrote this, but hey, make no mistake, many 5% have an anti-white grudge, and likely came to the Nation liking the idea of sticking it to white people. Make no mistake also, many 5% hunger for Black supremacy or a religious ideology supremacy (as opposed to equality). Many 5% speak extremely to the effects you and I have laid out. As with Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc., the 5% also has a sizable cache of more pragmatic, equality-minded folks. While Wikipedia isn't a place to get into speculation, opinion, or any general discussion, the theology is ever-evolving, as all do. Anyways, I'm all for this article reflecting what's out there and verifiable. If one item doesn't please an ideologue 5%er while another doesn't please someone who thinks the 5% are the greatest threat to white people, that's their problem. Kuahmel (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 120 Lessons 

message: Please read WP:RS. Just making assertions backed to NGE publications is not helpful nor is it even at times clear what you are saying. It's fine to say that the NGE calls itself a "God centered culture", but since that's a rather obscure phrase, we would need clarification of what it meant in NGE theology, and please don't write in ALLCAPS. It's not appropriate. Paul B (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Please use reliable sources

message: The Five-Percent Nation of Islam has been called a racist ideology. However, this is equal to calling Christianity racist because of the Catholic Church's relationship with Nazi Germany. Though many of its member have outwardly spoken out about their racist views, the religion itself is not racist ideology.
"Some[who?] have said the Five-Percent movement is a conflux of ideologies and practices embraced by rappers seeking popular appeal or "street credit" to sell albums to the audiences of hip hop and rap music. Rappers and black celebrities like Jay Z frequently reference Five-Percent teachings and symbols in lyrics describing the plight of persons in poverty who are forced to join gangs and sell drugs due to the subjugation by so called "white devils". Others[who?] have argued that the Five-Percent is simply a means of manipulating the masses not unlike other religions but more primitive given the recent origins as the Five-Percenters combine racist ideology with the positive message of self reliance achieved through cooperation among blacks to exclude white males for gaining positions of power in societies controlled by the "white devils" where the power structure of the United States and other nations is rooted in racism from slavery and discrimination dating to colonialism and imperialism.[31]"
This was written and it uses http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/04/06/ny-post-jay-z-blinging-it-black as its only source and though they have a quote there, from one racist self-proclaimed Five-Percenter, it can not be used as evidence for the religion itself being racist. You should not allow the only source being an online (racist?) newspaper with nothing more than a quote from some random guy who wrote two books. Please delete more of this type of nonsense on your website. 213.112.243.249 (talk) 13:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist ideology 

message: How many followers have been part of it and how many current followers does it have/do sources claim it has? 92.229.0.52 (talk) 23:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many followers? 

message: Shouldn't it also be noted that Lord Jamar is an actual Five Percenter?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.196.231 (talk) 05:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Popular Culture 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: title  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.230.231 (talk) 21:38, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: so official tax exempt recognized religion in usa or not?

message: When I first heard this lunacy mentioned on a daytime talk show and read the wiki page, I was concerned. This seems very "final solution" Nazi ish to me. Upon reading some of the comments, namely from intell and bornking7,  I realize I've wasted time worrying about the effects of this "political movement, " because as the moderators have explained, non supported claims of grandeur are just that. 
This page is horribly offensive to blacks and whites alike and should be taken down, although I'd hate the idea of limiting free speech, even this kind. But it should definitely be flagged as uncorroborated and/or hate speech.  Texaseliz (talk) 02:40, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not censored and the majority of the content on this page is sourced, so definitionally not "uncorroborated."  Cheers. Dyrnych (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time well spent 

message: Upon further review it seems this topic is exhausted. If the NOI isn't listed, why would an extreme spinoff be? I wish I hadn't landed on this empty shell of an article today. Sheesh, what a can of worms. Malik, it's intuitive there exists an allegory that refutes your opinion that a source doesn't exist; in fact, black supremacy is a racist ideology. The Five-percent Nation holds black supremacist views based solely on the fact that their core tenet dictates that the black man is god (supreme being), and ought to be added to the list of groups that hold such views on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_supremacy ev (talk) 00:44, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black supremacism 

message: The Nation of Gods and Earths are not in anyway Islamic. Saying that they are Muslims is like saying those who do not believe in Jesus are Christians. 
How is the Nation of Gods and Earths Islamic when Islam is strictly monotheistic? So there couldn't be an Islamic sect concerning gods?
Because the 5% adhere to Islam. Gods refers to every righteous descendant of the Asiatic Blackman, but the Original Nation is Allah, as a whole. There is but one Allah in that sense, though we each form a part and thus, retain traits and characteristics and styles of the whole and can achieve that. Signed, Ruler Born Loony  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.183.88.100 (talk) 09:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides the wobbly terminology about "adhering to Islam," I'd agree with this statement.Kuahmel (talk)
No, the 5% do NOT adhere to Islam. They dont belive in the quran or in Muhammad the prophet of the islam. And "mainstream" muslims
reject they as such. 5% are not really a relligion it is more a social movement and way of life. They have almost nothing to do with mainstream muslims. They are just 5%.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.195.43.203 (talk) 19:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Muslims 

message: Please do not re-add contested material without gathering consensus. See WP:ONUS. As multiple editors have suggested, citing reliable sources would go a long way toward establishing that consensus. Innisfree987 (talk) 03:57, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need for a source. I haven't introduced any new information. The 5 percent nation clearly believe in the Black Race and the supremacy of the Black race. Essentially, my source is already on the 5 Percent Nation page.       Packierooney123 (talk) 04:39, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia policies of WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:No original research mean that you do need to cite a source other than your own interpretation. This is particularly true when other editors have raised questions about the legitimacy of your addition: Wikipedia works by WP:CONSENSUS, and providing sources is by far the best (perhaps the only) way to persuade others of the legitimacy of what you'd like to add. Innisfree987 (talk) 04:44, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seeking consensus and providing reliable sources 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "In the Name of Elijah Muhammad: Louis Farrakhan and The Nation of Islam" By Mattias Gardell, Duke University Press. "The name, Five Percenters, is derived from the NOI lesson that teaches that 85 percent of the African Americans are still asleep. Ten percent have gained knowledge but sold out to the white devils, that is, the “talented tenth” of W. E. B. Du Bois reevaluated. Five percent are the poor righteous teachers, missioned to preach the redeeming black Gnosis through which Lazarus will awake." 
Dirt McGirt(his article should mention his membership but doesn;t) wrote an ode to the Five Percent Nation meant to be called "The Black Man Is God, White Man Is the Devil" but that was thought to be too incendiary.
[[Sping (magazine}} has an article saying that both blacks and whites can be devils. That's echoed by Lord Jamar in a 2012 interviewbut in 2014 he said something quite different:""Yep," answered Jamar when asked if the group holds to the teaching of the white man being a devil. "But now with that being said white people come from the black man. And the original devil, the strongest devil is a black devil. So, are the white people devils by themselves? No. They come from a stronger version of the devil, which was the original black man."
This book by Supreme Understanding says "I let him know that we teach that the Black man is God. He looks at me and says, “So if the Black man is God, does that mean the white man is the devil?” I looked this man - the white creator of the show - right in his eye and said, “Yes it does.”
At first, it was silence.Then, he responds, “I like it, I like that.” He liked it. That was the defining moment, because anybody else who wasn’t sure of themselves, or sure of what they’re dealing with, or just plain nervous, thinking, “Damn, if I say the white man is the devil that means he’s not going to give me the job.” Not me. I looked the top dude in his eye because he’s no bigger than me. Not physically, but as a person. I’m God so there’s no higher than God. Just because you’re the creator of the show doesn’t make you more supreme than me. I said, “Yes, it does mean that the white man is the devil.” He says, “I like it.”He put me in as Supreme Allah, a name I suggested" and "About eighty-five percent (85%) of the people on this planet, regardless of their race, color or creed does not know the true knowledge of the devil (or whiteman) because he’s hid it from them, and deceived them into believing his lie -that the devil is some creature wearing a red suit, with a long tail, two horns protruding from his head, carrying a pitch fork around, and living deep beneath the earth’s surface surrounded by everlasting flames of burning hellfire. And when the Nation of Gods and Earths reveals to them that the white man is the living devil who was grafted from Black people, they reject it at face value as being some kind of mendacious fairy tale, even with all the evidence that is available to prove it." It also says ""TheNation was not pro-Black nor anti-white, but pro-righteousnes and anti-devilishment, meaning they championed the cause o any person doing righteous acts and they were against an; person involved in negativity. Race was not an issue." 
As for "Gods", the belief is that whites cannot be gods. Doug Weller talk 11:06, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gods and Devils 

message: I've tagged this page for NPOV, and have raised this issue with the neutrality notice-board. I'd suggest interested parties make posts there to explain your positions. 
*Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Five_Percent_Nation
Harizotoh9 (talk) 10:47, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality notice board