Talk:Alex Higgins

message: Alex Higgins, as a cistern BRITISH, but because the Irish government confers Irish nationality on anyone born on the island of Ireland, including Northern Ireland, he is also an Irish citizen. "Northern Irish" is NOT a nationality! A "BRITISH CITIZEN" is anyone born anywhere within the United Kingdom of which 4 countries are a part, namely England, Wales, Scotland and Norther Ireland. Similarly, anyone born in Scotland or Wales are NOT "Scottish" or "Welsh" by nationality, they are BRITISH.
However, this is slightly different for citizens of Northern Ireland. As already mentioned, they can be either BRITISH or IRISH by nationality, or indeed both, should they so wish. In other words, anyone born in Northern Ireland is a "dual citizen".
:You have to elect to be given the second nationality you are entitled to. Whilst not political Higgins is from the unionist tradition and if there is a suggestion that he has Irish nationality it should be referenced. Otherwise he is from Northern Ireland, with a British passport. --194.125.109.86 07:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. There's a strong tradition here (imported from actual British culture's usage) that Northern Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English are indeed nationalities, within the "supranationality" of British.  Ranting here on a random article's talk page won't change that consensus.  Anyone with a problem with that issue should probably raise it at the Village Pump.  The issue affects thousands of articles, not just this one. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 15:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The Northern Irish snooker players category clearly states Higgins' country - Northern Ireland. And it's a sub-category of Category:Northern Irish people. Stu ’Bout ye! 08:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: There are some errors in the article:
1) The score for the 1982 world championship was 18-15, and not 18-16 as listed in the article.
2) In 1976 world championship final, Higgins not conceed early before Reardon had "reached the winning post". Reardon won the frame he needed to win the match 27-16. However, Higgins did conceed several frames early when he could still have techniclaly won them.
3)While it is correct that Higgins was ranked number 2 on two occassions (since the ranking list was created in 1976) it is worth noting that for the 1982 / 1983 list, Higgins had two ranking points deducted for misconduct. Otherwise he would have been ranked number one, based on tournament performance.
The article does not list many of Higgins' tournament victories. I would suggest adding:
* 1972 Irish Professional Champion (beat Rea 28-12)
* 1973 Men of the Midlands (beat Reardon 5-3)
* 1975 Canadian Open (beat Pulam 15-7)
* 1977 Canadian Open (beat Spencer 17-14)
* 1978 Benson and Hedges Masters (beat Thorburn 7-5)
* 1978 Irish Professional Champion (beat Dennis Taylor 21-7)
* 1979 Irish Professional Champion (beat Patsy Fagan 21-13)
* 1979 Tolly Cobbold Classic (beat Reardon 5-4)
* 1980 British Gold Cup (beat Reardon 5-1)
* 1980 Padmore / Super Crysalate International (beat Mans 4-2)
* 1980 Tolly Cobbold Classic (beat Dennis Taylor 5-4)
* 1980 Pontins Professional Championship (beat Dennis Taylor 9-7)
* 1981 Benson and Hedges Masters (beat Griffiths 9-5)
* 1983 Irish Professional Championship (beat Dennis Taylor 16-11)
* 1984 World Doubles Championship (with Jimmy White; beat Thorburn and Thorne 10-2)
* 1985, 1986, 1987 World Team Championship (playing for Ireland)
* 1989 Irish Professional Championship (beat Jack McLaughlin 9-7)
Tim Sandle
:Hi Tim,
:You are correct about the 1982 final: it was def. 18-15 and updated accordingly. As to the 1976 final, I recall seeing Higgins shaking hands with Reardon and hearing the commentator (Ted Lowe or Jack Karnehm) say in total surprise that he had conceded the frame in progress (and the match) early although not entitled to do so [those words ring fairly clear]. It's also my understanding that the final session of that match (in Manchester) was not played. Can you check your sources and post a reply?
:Unfortunately many of Alex's victories were in events that would be regarded a mickey-mouse today. True, those were all that were available but I think only his two B&H Master's titles stand the test of time and should be added to his article. I've a feeling that he also won one or two other major tournaments and will check this out. Patrick
Patrick, 
As can be seen, Alex beat Ray Reardon in 3 different finals, Reardon is a multi world champion. He also beat Spencer and Taylor in other finals. Surely the standards of these competitions were high with this level of finalists. Competitions became more prominent in the 80's with no small part due to Alex so its unfair that he is not added these titles. You might give them a seperate description, but if I beat Rerdon in a final I would be very aggrieved if my name was not there.
Higgins reached the 1994 Worldchampionship first round http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_World_Snooker_Championship and his determination to get back the cruciable at that stage of his career deserves mention and inclusion in his record section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.254.1 (talk) 09:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Errors

message: I'm tagging this particular paragraph:
: His unorthodox brilliance is best encapsulated in his break of 69 against White in the penultimate frame of their World Professional Snooker Championship semi-final in 1982. Experts and players continue to cite it as one of the greatest ever breaks under pressure. Higgins was 0-59 down in that frame and probably one ball away from going out, but managed to compile a clearance that almost defied belief. He was scarcely in position until he came to the colours. In particular, one pot will live long in the memory: a three-quarter-ball blue into the green pocket with the cue-ball screwed off the side cushion towards the top cushion. Dennis Taylor considers that the shot could be played 100 times without coming close to the position Higgins reached with cue-ball (he actually went much too far for good position on his next red).
Its language isn't formal enough (actually, it's not formal at all), it is POV, and at the very least it should be presented as a third-party's opinion, and should be sourced.
# Who decided that Higgins' "unorthodox brilliance is best encapsulated in his break of 69 against White in the penultimate frame of their World Professional Snooker Championship semi-final in 1982"?
# Who exactly are those "experts and players" who "continue to cite it as one of the greatest ever breaks under pressure"?
# Who thinks that the clearance that he managed "almost defied belief"?
# Who thinks that the particular pot described "will live long in the memory"? In whose memory?
I think that the problems are obvious, and that  should stay. ---Vladimir V. Korablin (talk) 09:52, 18 
December 2006 (UTC)
::I have reverted your edit and explained why on your talk page bigpad 18:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, I won't revert it back, to avoid engaging in an edit war, but you seem to be missing the point. It's not about whose knowledge of snooker is deeper (I'm pretty sure yours is), it's about how the articles must be written. My comments are not pedantic; they are based on official policies and guidelines of the English Wikipedia. See WP:V and WP:RS.---Vladimir V. Korablin (talk) 06:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: VladimirKorablin is right, on every single point.  This entire article, like so many of them on this topic, is riddled with POV aggrandizements, unsourced claims of what "everyone" or "most people" think, unverified assertions of fact, uncited quotes, etc., etc.  It reads like a magazine piece.  Rather than slap  on it, I've inline-tagged some of the problems (just in that paragraph; I could do that with the entire article, but that would make an unreadable mess of it, and might be considered a :WP:POINT.  I think the real point should get across with the minimal tagging I've done so far. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 12:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there, that paragraph has been edited but some of your insertions need explaining. You will see that I have said "arguably brilliant". If use of "arguable" is prohibited in Wiki, we're all done for. It was brilliant, since commentators then and since described it as such, even if these comments are often in video format. Patrick bigpad 14:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood; I've explained them with HTML comments and links to the relevant policies and guidelines.  To summarize here: "arguably brilliant" means that someone has sourceably made that argument (otherwise it is forbidden "original research", i.e. a Wikipedian simply asserting this because he/she has personally found it to be true but can't demonstrate it with sources: WP:NOR).  Wikipedia is not in a position to label him brilliant (WP:NPOV), and if we present the alleged fact that he has been labelled brilliant by third parties, that fact needs to be reliably (WP:RS) sourced (WP:V/WP:CS), just like any other fact.  The apparent fact that commentators then and since have said this or that also needs to be sourced (this can probably best be done with snooker magazines and reliable websites on the topic, unless you've recorded broadcasts and can cite them as to date and other details), again just like any other asserted fact.  Wikipedia isn't "done for" if we can't say aggrandizing things about players without sources.  See :Irving Crane (a Good Article) and :Walter Lindrum (which just missed G.A. status because most of its source citations are general and at the end instead of inline and citing specific facts). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 18:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: {{tl|tone}} 

message: Why was the above introduced? bigpad 08:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As discussed in user talk, this article (among many other snooker ones, and sports and other fandom articles in general - I dont mean to single this one out especially) is riddled with peacock language and weasel words.  It is written like a magazine article not like an encyclopedia article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 19:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: The figure quoted is a bit of a back of an envelope calculation. It certainly is not his career earnings from prize money. There are between 20-25 players who have earned £1 million + by this way. Higgins does not feature on this list. --194.125.109.86 07:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is a press estimate on what he earned through snooker, not his winnings. Text updated accordingly bigpad 22:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I doubt it, in the 70s there was only basically the World Championship and the Masters, and towards the end of the decade the UK Championship that were staged by the WSA.  He probably didn't even break £100,000 in recorded prize money in the 70s, but could earn £500 a night playing an exhibition.  Betty Logan (talk) 23:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Earnings

message: The text says he compiled a 16-red break, but goes on to list 17 colours. Surely a 16-red clearance would consist of either 16 or 22 colours, as the initial "red" doesn't count as a colour? BeL1EveR 15:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does make 'sense', actually: 16 reds requires 16 colours + the last six colours (once each) = 17 colours! bigpad 08:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No it doesn't make sense. The final series of colours yellow to black is irrelevant. The first ball is not classed as a colour as it has a value of 1 point, and so it should not be counted. You have 16 one-point balls, each potted with a single colour to follow, which means 16 colours (then the other six). The article specifically lists "1 brown, 1 green, 5 pinks and 10 blacks" - which is 17, and would therefore require 17 reds. It needs correcting. 81.96.161.52 17:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Having revisited the source of this info, it is clear that they always cite the first 'red' in their description of the break. In this case it is clear that the first two balls were brown (1 point); green (3 points); then reds and colours as normal. Consequently I have clarified the wording.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MegdalePlace (talk • contribs) 18:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sixteen red break 

message: Sources say he had the disease for more than a decade? Seems like he kept it in remission for a very long time. Was it cancer that caused his passing then?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.19.161 (talk) 19:14, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: More than likely, I bumped into him a few weeks ago and he looked a very ill man indeed. But as for cause of death until there is something to reference that as the cause we can't say that in the article and I doubt that will be confirmed until after an autopsy. --Wintonian (talk) 19:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was in remission for years. However, during the past couple of years he lost a huge amount of weight and aged very rapidly. This strongly indicates that his cancer grew and spread, causing his death. Jim Michael (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cancer 

message: Can we keep a close eye on this please.  Already there is a paragraph saying he was addicted to cocaine (whereas the source merely states he admitted using it) and that he died from cancer (the source doesn't say that, and comments he had recently suffered from pneumonia), so can we please make sure we stick to the facts please. Betty Logan (talk) 22:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The BBC source cited in the lead states he died of throat cancer. That is what this article should state, unless there are other reliable sources giving another cause of death for him. He was hospitalised with pneumonia in April this year, but there is no evidence so far that it had anything to do with his death. Jim Michael (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: While much of what is written in the third para. of the intro. is correct, it needs referencing. For example, a journalist is cited as an authority of Higgins having been an alcoholic. I accpet that alcohol played a big (and terrible) part in his life but how does that person know he was an alcoholic? Did Higgins ever admit it or was it diagnosed? bigpad (talk) 20:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still not completely happy about the cause of death.  The current reference says he did die of throat cancer, but how would they know this without an autopsy.  As far as I am aware Higgins was in remission and Jimmy White alluded to the fact that malnutrition was the cause.  It seems to me some of the sources have made quite a few assumptions, and we need to be careful to separate opinion from fact. Betty Logan (talk) 20:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A fair point so I've modified the last line of that paragraph a little to mention the cancer but not attribute death definitively to it until it's confirmed. bigpad (talk) 22:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The intro reads better now. "Heavy binge drinking" was not only tautology but incorrect. If you knew Alex, it wasn't that he drank for hours and hours but that he drank a fair bit relatively quickly and then ofen got into rows. bigpad (talk) 09:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crud seeping in 

message: Please can we find a valid photo of Alex in his prime.  At the moment there's an old b&w one when he was a boy, and one from when he racked by cancer. Earthlyreason (talk) 02:19, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately there is no other image about him uploaded. Armbrust Talk Contribs 20:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

text: What Dennis Taylor image? David Taylor is on the picture. Armbrust Talk Contribs 20:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: He had two children by his second wife there seems to be no dispute about that. After that it becomes a little more problematic. In his last autobiography, the one ghosted by Sean Boru, he half denies being the father of his first wife's daughter. They would get on, row and spend time apart sometimes one would be in the UK and the other in Australia. He states by inference that neither were faithful to the other and that at around the time the first wife became pregnant he had not shared a bed with her for months. This is all plausible and can't be set at naught by one Daily Mail article which is now not at risk of being held up for review in a defemation action. It seems probable that he hit his first wife, who may have come from a monied background and there is a reference in the Telegraph obit to him saying something like we had a nice 5 years and her saying he was mad and hit me. So did she decide to keep her life in Australia, raise her daughter on her own and as she was from a monied background could cut him out of her life? If the latter there may not have been a blood test and Higgin's half denial may not be contradicted by scientific evidence. Likewise it seems that 6 years ago someone sold a story to the News of the World saying that they had had Alex Higgins' son in 1975 and/or maybe the story was from the son himself. There is no link to the story but the Daily Mail article seems to be based in part on the News of the World story. However what was Higgins' response in 2004 ? The mere fact that people say that Higgins was their dad or father of their child doesn't make it true. The fact that he is now dead and can't sue also doesn't change the fact that these things have to be stood up.             —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.21.151 (talk) 08:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Legally he is the father of three children so that is what the article should go with.  It's irrelevant who he biologically fathererd, if his name is on the certificate he's the father; if he's not then he isn't unless it is legally challenged. Betty Logan (talk) 16:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Ronnie O'Sullivan was forced to have a paternity test after denying his love child, and now has to financially support it.  Cara's daughter was born within the marriage so presumably his name will be on the birth certificate since he would have to take legal action to have it removed, which is unlikely. The later claims are hearsay at best. Betty Logan (talk) 22:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The last part of this is all speculation- unless you are being modest about your qualifications in mid 1970s Australian family law. There is just no online interview available anywhere with the now 65 year old Cara Hasler or with her mid 30s daughter- try it: search online and try and find one. Unless they break silence in the next week or two it seems in this case safe to speculate and say that they want to live a private life. Higgins effectively denied being the father of Cara's daughter. He said by inference that they both slept with different people during the marriage and were often 1000s of miles apart. --109.78.96.177 (talk) 00:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's true, than you should provide a reliable source in which Higgins makes this statement. Armbrust Talk Contribs 00:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Even if she is someone else's biologically, the fact that she was born within wedlock makes him the legal father. Ultimately his two marriages produced three children regardless of the biological paternity.  Betty Logan (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In answer to Armbust- In his last autobiography, the one ghosted by Sean Boru. Secondly the suggestion that 'the fact that she was born within wedlock makes him the legal father' is again a purported interpretation of mid 1970s Australian law without any obvious source or qualification to do so. --109.78.96.177 (talk) 05:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Children

message: There is a reference on the main page which says something like not normally known for his charitable work. In the huge amount of press coverage that followed his death I read a quote from Len Ganly the former referee who in fact suggested that Higgins did considerbale charitable work but without publicity. I will try and find a link. --109.76.66.46 (talk) 07:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Charity work

message: If anyone wants to add to this, this is Alex's record
Masters
1975 - Quarter-Finalist
1976 - 2nd Round
1977 - Semi-Finalist
1978 - WINNER
1979 - Finalist
1980 - Finalist
1981 - WINNER
1982 - Semi-Finalist
1983 - Semi-Finalist
1984 - Quarter-Finalist
1985 - Quarter-Finalist
1986 - 1st Round
1987 - Finalist
1988 - 2nd Round
Professional Players Tournament - Grand Prix
1982 - 2nd Round
1983 - 1st Round
1984 - 2nd Round
1985 - 5th Round
1986 - 5th Round
1988 - Finalist
UK Championship
1977 - Semi-Finalist
1978 - Semi-Finalist
1979 - Quarter-Finalist
1980 - Finalist
1981 - Quarter-Finalist
1982 - Finalist
1983 - WINNER
1984 - Finalist
1985 - 5th Round
1986 - Semi-Finalist
1987 - 5th Round
1988 - 4th Round
1994 - 1st Round
NORWICH UNION OPEN
1974 - 1st Round
1975 - Semi-Finalist
Scottish Masters
1981 - Semi-Finalist
1982 - Finalist
1983 - Semi-Finalist
1984 - Semi-Finalist
1985 - 1st Round
1986 - Finalist
1987 - 1st Round
INTERNATIONAL OPEN
1981 - Semi-Finalist
1982 - 2nd Round
1983 - 1st Round
1984 - Quarter-Finalist
CLASSIC
1982 - Semi-Finalist
1984 - 1st Round
1985 - 2nd Round
1986 - Quarter-Finalist
1987 - 4th Round
1988 - 4th Round
1989 - 4th Round
BRITISH OPEN
1980 - WINNER
1985 - Semi-Finalist
1986 - Semi-Finalist
1987 - 3rd Round
1988 - 3rd Round
1989 - 4th Round
1990 - Finalist
GOYA MATCHROOM TROPHY
1985 - 5th Round
KIT KAT
Semi-Finalist
BCE BELGIAN CLASSIC
1986 Semi-Finalist
BCE INTERNATIONAL
4th Round
BCE CANADIAN MASTERS
1986 - 1st Round
1988 - 3rd Round
FIDELITY INTERNATIONAL
1988 - 3rd Round
EUROPEAN OPEN
1989 - 4th Round
INTERNATIONAL OPEN
1994- 1st Round 
Irish Masters:
1983 - semi-final
1984 - semi-final
1985 - finalist
1986 - 1st Round
1987 - 1st Round
1988 - semi-final
1989 - WINNER
1990 - quarter-final 
Original Source: http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=21307&highlight=wikipedia+alex+higgins#ixzz16IznwWx5 
TSF - TheSnookerForum.com  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.165.165.178 (talk) 14:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid that some of this information is wrong--Якушев Илья (talk) 14:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And by the way the Snooker Forum is not a reliable source either. Armbrust Talk Contribs 02:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Performance timeline

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thread_title: File:Alex Higgins mural.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I'm pretty sure he played high profile pool in the USA. I've seen film of him playing with Jimmy White against top American players. Can anyone add something?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.136.54 (talk) 00:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pool 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Pymgate Lodge Hotel, Styal Road, Gatley.
Rumour abounded at the time (late 80's early 90's) that 'The Hurricane' was a permanent guest / resident of this pleasant little hotel.
An obituary in the Guardian http://theguardian.com/sport/2010/jul/26/alex-higgins-genius-snooker would appear to confirm this.
Oneself never clapped eyes on him ever - despite living in the vicinity of at least two of his abodes (he lived in Cheadle, Greater Manchester at the time of his '82 World Championship Win).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.248.127 (talk) 22:35, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  So near yet... 

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message: His daughter was wrong. Throat cancer was the primary cause of his death. (86.147.59.139 (talk) 17:45, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cause of death 

message: A new article about Higgins (I would call this writer a subject-matter expert when it comes to cue-sports media):
* 
The upshot is that there have been at least  film/TV documentary productions about Higgins, from 1972 to 2010, and they are catalogued here, with fairly detailed reviews for the works that have proven accessible.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Docus