Talk:E. Lee Spence

message: Note that User:Dr. E. Lee Spence signs as "HunleyFinder". —Quarl (talk) 2007-03-07 04:42Z
The Wiki note is correct, this page is autobiographical. I would actually prefer it not to be. I have tons of documentation and will start assembling and adding the sources for everything stated on this page. I had based the tone and format on what I had seen on some other pages but I now see they have also been updated to conform to policy. I have reread the guidelines about bias and neutral statements and will be removing the fluff. I am sincerely sorry, HunleyFinder 15:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still have concerns about the level of autobiographical self-aggrandizement in this article. I'm not sure what you mean by "it is no longer what I would write about myself."  I mean, it is what you've written about yourself. janejellyroll 23:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I completely appreciate all of your points and I really appreciate your willingness to discuss this in a civil way.  The main reason that Wikipedia tends to be wary of autobiography is the idea that if you are notable enough, you won't have to write an article about yourself . . . somebody else will write it for you.  In this case this hasn't happened.  But just because you wrote it yourself doesn't mean that there is a de facto problem with it.  I'm just not comfortable with removing the autobio tag while the article is in the present state. You're right--I'm not biased or jealous at all . . . in fact, I know nothing about underwater exploration!  That makes me, I suppose, both the best and worst person to be looking at this.  The very fact of your investment in this article (after all, it is about you) makes me extra-wary, but I'm assuming good faith on your part as well.  Let me look over the article tonight and I'll leave some detailed suggestions.  I'm going to try to find articles for people who are similar to you in profession and impact and see what details they have included.  Right off the top of my head, one of my main concerns is the length of this article.  It seems very, very long.  But I do appreciate that you're trying not to use this article as a soapbox for your personal issues.  I'll post again tonight or tomorrow night.  janejellyroll 00:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Autobiographical

message: http://joeccombs2nd.com/2012/08/26/spence-vs-cussler-who-found-the-hunley/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.143.44 (talk) 19:33, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Excellent article on Finding of Hunley

message: Okay, I just edited the article and will provide reasons for everything I removed/changed.  Please let me know what you think about these changes.  I'm committed to keeping this article and getting the "autobio" tag removed and I know we can find a common ground.
1.  I removed the 2nd paragraph of the lead.  I think your accomplishments speak for themself without having to include references to you as a real-life Indiana Jones or comparing you to Heinrich Schliemann.  Again, if somebody else had added these edits, I'd be more flexible.  But it just seems a bit odd in an autobiographical article.
2.  I left this section untouched, but I'd like to see some references attesting to the notability of the International Diving Institute beyond the organization's own website.
3.  I changed a few words in the "Hunley" section.  When I wrote that you "claimed" to discover the "Hunley" in 1975, please realize that I don't mean it as a pejorative or dubious statement.  I think it is a good way to frame an issue that is clearly contested.  And I think the rest of the language in the article clearly states your case without taking sides on this issue.  If this isn't acceptable to you, let's try to think of different replacements together.
4.  I'd like to see some references to the claim of $50,000,000 in lifetime discoveries beyond something written by you (unless I missed another source, this was from a book of yours, right?).  
5.  I removed the paragraph on legal judgments because I wasn't clear on what it was supposed to illustrate other than the fact that a lot of money is tied up in these discoveries.  
6.  I removed the section on literary discoveries.  I'm incredibly flexible on putting this back in with proper context and citations.
7.  I removed the section on your books while leaving your bibliography.  I don't like having both.  I think the bibliography adds more to the article.
8.  I removed your quote.  Having just one notable quotation seems a bit odd.  It wasn't even about your speciality.
9.  I removed various bits of personal information, including the cardiovascular board membership, the membership in MENSA, and the honor society memberships.  They are all unnotable and they seem to strike a note of self-aggrandizement that really should be avoided in an encyclopedia article.  I also removed the section on your personal life and family.  The point of a Wikipedia article is to show what is notable about you, not everything about you.  If you were more of a public figure, then I can see including the names of your children.  As you are notable mainly for your historical discoveries, I don't see the place for it.
Please let me know what you think about these changes.  I think I also made a couple of changes and removed phrases like "award-winning" when the award wasn't specified.  janejellyroll 05:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 

message: This page continues to be self-serving, egotistical nonsense. Whatever achievements Dr spence has  managed in his life are brought into question by his need to publicise them in this absurdly immodest manner. I suggest he deletes the whole miserable charade and has the good grace to wait for someone else to praise him. OhNoPeedyPeebles 23:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-serving Twaddle 

message: I personally believe that anonymous attacks are cowardly and I have found that they usually reflect low self esteem on the part of the attacker. So I wonder, who is Wikipedia Editor OhNoPeedyPeebles? And, what are his personal and professional accomplishments and qualifications? The only things I know about him so far is that he is someone who doesn't like me (E. Lee Spence) and he has little or no respect for Wikipedia. Both facts are obvious to anyone checking the history of the page on me. The changes  made by OhNoPeedyPeebles to the E. Lee Spence page on 22:03, 10 January 2007 were childish vandalism. Vandalism is against Wikipedia's policies. I suspect that OhNoPeedyPeebles' attacks on me somehow make him feel better about himself. If his animosity against me is sincere, I suggest that it comes through ignorance and that he contact me directly so we can meet. I think it would be great if we learned enough about each other to find sufficient common ground to respect each other's point of view and achievements. I certainly don't have any reason to respect his views or anything else about him right now. If OhNoPeedyPeebles doesn't want to meet with me at my office and take the opportunity to view the tens of thousands of pages of my professional work, perhaps he could create an editor or member page about OhNoPeedyPeebles so Wikipedia's readers can properly judge the value of his editing contributions. It is my position that your attacks are unwarranted and I demand that you stop. So, Mr. OhNoPeedyPeebles if you actually think your attacks have any merit, please take this opportunity to identify yourself and let the readers judge us both. HunleyFinder 16:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So are personal debates, as Wikipedia is not a bulletin board. Considering that you have written far, FAR too much of this article, it's kind of hard for someone to comment upon it without it seeming like a personal attack. But that is the can of worms you opened by doing so. RoyBatty42 18:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is OhNoPeedyPeebles? 

message: I was alarmed to find that Wikipedia currently lists E. Lee Spence as the person who discovered the Hunley. I was the city editor of The (Charleston) Post and Courier from 1997-2002 and on several occasions assigned reporters to examine Spence's claims in lengthy detail. Those reviews of the evidence never provided any compelling argument in support of Spence's version of events, and instead argued strongly against him. 
The most detailed examination of Spence's claims, which I edited, was not published. 
It should be clearly stated that the Navy, the National Parks Service and the S.C. Hunley Commission all credit Clive Cussler with the discovery, and that Spence's legal efforts to compel others to recognize him as the finder of the Hunley proved unsuccessful.
Mr. Spence clearly has experience as an underwater explorer, but his history does nothing to inspire confidence in his credibility, and I would strongly recommend that editors reject his repeated claim to discovering the Hunley.
DanConover 21:53, 21 December 2008 (EST)
I think it is a sad commentary that the person discussed wrote the majority of the article, even vain perhaps.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.247.100.130 (talk) 16:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair to Dr Spence, I quite like the bits where he tells us how clever and handsome he is. --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 18:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims found to be not credible 

message: (1) It is reasonable to assume that any person whom had made such an important discovery would attempt to take at least one picture of it. Even if it was of poor quality/ blurred, murky, etc. 
(2) ANY person (even a non diver) could have claimed that they located the submarine and then list the Housatonic wreck as its location. The National Park Service document cited simply suggests searching "600 yards" around the Housatonic wreck.
Consider this- according to this article, the Hunley was found 100 yards away from the Housatonic wreck. Therefore, ANY person who had claimed it was near the Housatonic would have been correct within 100 yards!
Is it possible that Dr. Spence found it but could not manage to take a picture of it on, as he claims, at least three visits to the site? 
Yes- but hard to believe.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.143.44 (talk) 15:46, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim of finding Hunley 

message: In this Youtube clip, Dr. Mark Newell, when asked how the Hunley was found, states that they had to search "50 square miles" of ocean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Por80M2_H40
If true, this would refute any claim that Dr. Newell was supplied the location and went out to "verify" it. One would assume that if the location had been given to Dr. Newell, he would not have searched 50 square miles in order to find it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.143.44 (talk) 17:41, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr. Mark Newell comments on finding Hunley 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on E. Lee Spence. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/aug/23/cussler_ends_lawsuit_over_finding_hunley51831/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://hunleyarchives.org/Beasley112095.jpg
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.hunleyarchives.org/McConnell092195.jpg
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081120091525/http://www.coxwashington.com/reporters/content/reporters/stories/2007/06/06/BC_ODYSSEY_ADV03_COX.html to http://www.coxwashington.com/reporters/content/reporters/stories/2007/06/06/BC_ODYSSEY_ADV03_COX.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello - 
I added a note in to an external link:  
* The Hunley.com website dedicated to Hunley (link fails, 12/14/2021.)
I came to this wondering if Dr. E. Lee Spence is descended from the Spence family in Mobile, Alabama, and would welcome any pursuing of that. 
Marty Mangold (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link Failing - Spence Genealogy 

message: Would love to chat 2601:742:8000:130:C411:97C:E5D1:C3A2 (talk) 06:48, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victor Hayward