Template talk:Numeral systems

message: 1) Someone seems to be using brackets to put 'Hindu' next to the Western Arabic family. This makes no sense so please stop unless you have good evidence and reason for doing so.
2) Someone has put brackets around Tamil. Again not sure why. Tamil like Thai, Burmese, has a system based on the Hindu-Arabic system, but also has its own system (see article). It is standalone, and there is no reason to put brackets around it because the same would apply to all systems (Thai, Burmese) under the Hindu-Arabic family.
--90.215.129.236 (talk) 13:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes 

message: I've just made it a bit worse, adding two more non-standard systems. Perhaps we should instead remove all the non-standard systems from the template, except for the link to Non-standard positional numeral systems? But I think at least Unary would still deserve a link of its own. Perhaps it a bit too much that we have:
Three categories:
*:Category:Numeration
*:Category:Positional numeral systems
*:Category:Non-standard positional numeral systems
Four articles, including a list:
*Numeral systems
*Positional notation
*Non-standard positional numeral systems
*List of numeral system topics
And a template:
*:Template:Numeral systems
Here's a suggestion: The categories are fine, the List of numeral system topics is redundant at can be deleted, the template should be divided into three (all of which should include links to the other two):
#:Template:Numeral systems in practical use (systems in real use outside of recent mathematics and computer science, most listed by culture)
#:Template:Standard positional numeral systems (listed by base)
#:Template:Non-standard positional numeral systems
E.g., Babylonian numerals and Tally marks would be listed on template 1, Sexagesimal on template 2, and Unary on template 3.
If no objections appear here - or suggestions of better names for the templates - I'll probably split the template as indicated one of these days.--Niels Ø 06:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: The template was far too long anf too wide, I had to remove it elsewhere. And then (I hope) fixed, it's now in a "works for me" (non-CSS) state. Add CSS as you like, but please leave legacy align/width/colspan/etc. alone unless you can test the effect without CSS. For the suggestion above maybe adding a link to the relevant category is good enough, but on the other hands all affected pages should already be in this category, and there's a link to the list with more related topics. I've removed some esoteric stuff like base 11, anybody interested in such oddities will find them without this template. -- Omniplex 14:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tweaked it a little, does it still work for you?  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks to user:75th Trombone for following up on this - it looks good to me now!--Niels Ø 08:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixed (?) 

message: As it now stands, without direct links to non-standard positional numeral systems, should we remove the template from those articles (e.g., Bijective numeration, Balanced ternary, etc.)? They will still be connected to the other articles through their categories.--Niels Ø 07:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of template 

message: Why aren't the various numerical systems placed into alphabetical order? Has there been a consensus against that? ktr (talk) 18:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabetical order 

message: In these edits, the links to the mathematical articles in the section on positional numeral system are reordered in a way I do not understand, and the link to Unary is moved to a section on cultural numeral systems. As Unary is a mathematical article rather than a cultural one, and as unary arguably belongs with the positional systems (see here), I think it should be moved back. So, unless the IP user behind these edits explains herself, I'll revert both edits.--Noe (talk) 18:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The link to unary under "positional numbering systems" seems inappropriate as units can be randomly rearranged or shifted, adding a space, without changing the value and use of a radix point does not allow representation of non-integer values.  It seems that a link to "non-standard positional numeral systems", which includes unary, would be more appropriate.  I will try these changes. Bcharles (talk) 16:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Unary numeral system is NOT a positional notation. --StanContributor (talk) 22:42, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent reordering of positional systems by IP user 

message: Please see Category talk:Positional numeral systems#List of positional systems by base.--Nø (talk) 10:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of positional systems by base 

message: For those who don't understand that the unary numeral system is NOT a positional notation: please stop adding or moving it to respective block of template! --StanContributor (talk) 22:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Unary numeral system" in "positional notation" block of template. 

message: Currently, the top of the box says "Numeral systems by culture" in large font. Near the bottom there is a header in smaller font saying "Numeral systems by base". Clearly this is inappropriate: "by culture" and "by base" should be headers at the same level. Can someone fix this?--Nø (talk) 16:35, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: fixed. Frietjes (talk) 16:54, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of headers Suggestion 

message: Double sharp, what is it that makes unary a "non-standard" positional system? I personally don't see anything that would make it different from other standard systems. Mvpo666 (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This is answered in Non-standard positional numeral systems#Base one (unary numeral system) - in a positional system, position is expected to affect the value of a digit; this is not the case for unary. I a standard positional system, each digit position may assume the value zero - again, this is not the case for unary. On the other hand, unary fits nicely into the group of bijective numeration systems, all of which (arguably with unary as an exception) are positional systems. Really, this is a compromise between editors who are convinced unary is NOT a positional, and editors who are convinced it is.--Nø (talk) 19:24, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I see now, thanks for letting me know. But now I have another question: can't we add a subsection within the "positional systems by base" section, called "Non-standard positional systems" and include all the "nonstandard system" articles there? Mvpo666 (talk) 19:53, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a section for non-standard positional numeral systems, including more examples (including unary). Double sharp (talk) 11:21, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, that's better. Thanks! Mvpo666 (talk) 15:41, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly, I think this is overdoing it in this template - I'd like it to be shorter. For the record, I originated the article Non-standard positional numeral systems (as well as the neologism "Non-standard positional...) and I think I wrote more than half of it; I think it's interesting. But considering which articles use the Numeral systems template, I think listing the rather exotic non-standard systems in the template is giving them undue weight.--Nø (talk) 07:25, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno if most of them are undue weight: the bijectives are reasonably common, and so are mixed radices (which we even do today in today's sexagesimal notation for time, which is essentially alternating between base-6 and base-10 columns). Balanced ternary is common, and negative bases were already here. And the non-standard articles like golden ratio base and quater-imaginary base already used this template, so I personally think all of them are all right. Just my opinion, though. Double sharp (talk) 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As I expected when specific examples of non-standard systems were recently added to the template, the list will grow, and grow, and grow, the someone will cut the most obscure ones away (according to that editor's taste), then it will grow again as various editors add their hobby horses, etc. I think the sensible and reasonably stable solution is to include the link to the article on non-standard systems, possibly link unary (and/or tally marks), and nothing else.--Nø (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unary 

message: Can anybody explain how to get an image into an article so that it somehow overrides the image from the navbox in the popup tooltip preview of the article. An alternative question is how to mark the navbox image so it is discouraged from being used (this could possibly be true for every navbox, not just this one).
The problem I am trying to fix is the misleading result for hovering over arabic numerals. Due to cropping the image actually does not show them, and contributes to the continuous misconception that this term means "base 10" (rather than the correct meaning of the 10 glyphs that are very popular for writing numbers). There is an image on that page (shown here) that I would like it to choose instead.
Spitzak (talk) 17:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fixed now. The correct name for the feature which makes popup previews is Page Previews. That feature in turn uses a rather complicated heuristic embedded inside mw:Extension:PageImages. To wit, Further down it states that  So, long thin images, or tall thin images, are not allowed, with images around 0.5 being preferred. I uploaded a new image that fit all the criteria to score highly, :File:Hindu-Arabic numerals.svg. I then replaced it in the article. But so that other editors would be unlikely to revert due to the larger margins of the new image, which while being not unpleasant to my eye, might in any event cause complaints, I took the extra step of using :Template:CSS image crop to remove the margins when viewed by a human, but they are still visible to the computerized PageImagess extension and within the Page Preview itself. Psiĥedelisto (talk) 01:39, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

text: By the way, that is the only way to fix this currently. Unfortunately you can't just simply mark an image as not to be put into a Page Preview, unless it's undocumented. Psiĥedelisto (talk) 01:42, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixing the popup preview of articles using this box 

message: This template should be a navbar at the bottom of articles, not a sidebar. Reasons:
*The top right corner of the article should have an interesting image related to the topic of that article.  Instead this sidebar wastes that precious space with a picture of several other number system, that distracts the reader but adds nothing to the article it is in.
*Even if the sidebar is placed below a useful image, it still steals precious screen space from the head section and from the first section, which are usually the most important parts of the article and read by most readers.  Wikipedia's frames, menus, and banners already waste 30-40% of the readers's screen space; the sidebar steals another 10-20% of what remains, on the initial screen that reader sees when he get to the article.
*A reader who gets to an article with a navigation sidebar may want to do many things next; but one thing he will surely not do is jump immediately to an article about another number system -- just because he saw its name (and no other info) listed on the sidebar.  Therefore there is no reason to put those links to other number systems at the top of the article.  They should be at the end of the article, like the "See Also section -- and for the same reasons.
*Any article belongs to several general topics.  For example, the article on Etruscan numerals is not just in the topic "number systems", but also in "history of Italy", "history of the Mediterranean", "history of mathematics", "Etruscans", etc. Clearly it is not viable for the article to have a navigation sidebar for each of those topics.  So -- for the sake of consistency, fairness, and peace among editors -- there should be no navigation sidebars at all.  (Multiple navbars at the bottom of the article, on the other hand, can coexist without much inconvenience.)
*In fact, it is very unlikely that a reader will use the sidebar (or even a navbar) for anything.  The typical readers is much more likely to leave the article either by clicking to a link in the text (which, most likely, will not be an article on another number system); or by clicking the back button.  
*Even readers who are interested in number systems in general should, and probably will, go to the article on that general topic, which should have an organized and annotated list of links; and use those links to get to specific number systems. (Since all browsers have tabs, he can keep that article open while he reads those other articles; thus getting all the possible benefits of a sidebar, minus the inconvenients.)
In fact, the time and energy spent creating, maintaining, and inserting a navigation sidebar like this one is worse than wasted.  That effort should be better spent on writing or improving the number system article.All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 09:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please make it into a navbar rather than a sidebar 

message: Back in 2014 (with this edit), "Other historical systems" was changed to "Former", and I feel this should be changed back to simply "Historical systems". I came to notice this due to the inclusion of Kaktovik Inupiaq numerals (Inuit) in this list. While the Inupiat have used base 20 for ages, the written numeral system was invented in 1994 (and since refined) and has entered wide use within the community. — Huntster (t @ c) 11:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording change request