Talk:Klaipėda Region

message: I support a move of this article to Memelland for this region, as the German name fittingly describes it as the region on the northern bank of the Memel river up to the town of Memel, which is 50 km away from the river, thus equalling both "Klaipeda region" and "Nemunas region". As Lithuania acquired the Memelland forcefully from Germany in 1923, the use of Lithuanian terms (which seem to be a little confusing, see above) is not really NPOV.--Matthead 19:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article clearly covers the region which was disputed between the wars, and not any Subdivisions of Lithuania as these were/are different in any time and covered in separate articles. For the interbellum time, the Versailles treaty and the Vote on Danzig/Gdansk applies, which means Memelland and nothing else is the proper name for this article. If the content here would be changed to something else, a separate article named "Memelland" would be necessary to tell the 1918/1923-1939/45 story. Besides, people from Memelland are still alive today, so much about "archaic"! --Matthead 18:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lithuania violated the Treaty of Versailles, the French didn't bother do oppose this, neglecting their duty. Does that justify that the Lithuanian name is to be used rather than the one in the treaty - which happens to be equal to the German, for some reason, as there was no other as it belonged to Prussia for a very long time - well over 85 years? In historical contexts the historical names have to be used, not POV-pushing modern names. For the lower section of the river, within East Prussia, Memel is the correct term applying for several centuries, including 45% of the 20th. Same applies to the city, and most of all, to the Memelland between the wars.--Matthead 18:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point about historical usage. I'm not pushing any POV. My only question is, did the region, with the same name and borders exist as a subnational division after the creation of the Lithuanian SSR? heqs 20:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I understand, they did not keep it as a unity, but have splitted it: After Klaipėda region was acquired, it was divided into 3 apskritys (Klaipėda Apskritis, Šilutė Apskritis and Pagėgiai Apskritis). Todays structure does not resemble to any of the non-natural Memelland borders, so a "Klaipėda Region" does not exit (and Klaipėda county  is very different). I assume that the century-old border intentionally was "erased from the map", or "the wound was healed", whatever POV one takes. Anyway, the name Memelland prefectly describes the area in question, marked by the Memel river in the south and Memel city in north-west corner - and that might be one of the reasons why other references to Memel are "under attack", as it is tried to limit its meaning to the city only, see Talk:Memel (disambiguation)and also Klaipėda Revolt. A possible other description for the area with other terms would be "Nemunas-Klaipeda-Region". --Matthead 16:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that the Danzig/Gdansk case applies here, because the seizure/occupation/annexation/whatever of Memelland/Klaipeda region was recognized by the "great powers", whereas the Free City of Danzig persisted as constitued by ToV throughout the interwar period. For that reason, I think using the Lithuanian name for territory that has basically been a part of Lithuania from 1923-present is appropriate. Memelland should only be used when dealing with the pre-1923 period. heqs 17:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The question posed was what the article name should be. Not what it was or was not called at different points in the past. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine... we had an interesting and relevant discussion about historical usage... heqs 21:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Then Klaipeda region implies Lithuanian supremacy? Or do you just mean "under Lithuanian control"? When no conclusions should be made in the article name itself, why not using the term applied in the Versailles treaty that separated and baptised the region in the first place? --Matthead 17:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your idea would be very logical if there were a permanent conflict between Germany and Lithuania for the region between the two World Wars. But Germany recognized Klaipėda Region to be an autonomous part  of Lithuania. Also other European states did (although it wouldn't be necessary for our case). All sides, at least officially, were content and satisfied then. Or, perhaps, you recognize Nazi occupation as legal? If not, what difference is with current situation then? Klaipėda is part of Lithuania as it was before WWII. So what difference do You see between today, to call the city Klaipėda, and that period, not to call? By the way, Your demographic arguments are not valid for this case. Even if 0 percents of Lithuanians lived in Klaipėda then , this fact doesn't imply, that it couldn't be a part of Lithuania. National purism is a very nice-looking idea but very unpleasant practice. By the way, memellanders did't mean mere Germans. Memellanders were German-educated people with different mother tongues, including both German and Lithuanian.--Linas Lituanus 14:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memelland 

message: Is Memelland a borrowed word in English word or should the area before 1945 be called "Memel Territory"? It was called Memel in the English version of the the Versailles Treaty
:MEMEL.
:ARTICLE 99.
:Germany renounces in favour of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers all rights and title over the territories included between the Baltic, the north-eastern frontier of East Prussia as defined in Article 28 of Part II (Boundaries of Germany) of the present Treaty and the former frontier between Germany and Russia. Germany undertakes to accept the settlement made by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers in regard to these territories, particularly in so far as concerns the nationality of the inhabitants.
Unless there is a mention of it under another name in a latter official English language document "Memel Territory" seems like the English name to use for the period up to 1945 when the English speaking nations recognised the Soviet's (de-facto) administration of the region. That is of course unless there was/is another common name used in English language books and journals to describe the place between the two World Wars. This is exactly the same situation as with other places like Danzig (the next article (art 100) in the Versailles Treaty). It does not matter what the locals called it, in this encyclopaedia what matters is the common English name for the place in other reliable sources. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I started the convo on Talk:Battle of Memel because it was specifically about what to call it in the WWII period (ie. the article should possibly be renamed to Battle of Klaipeda, as the Nazi annexation of 1939 and all other Nazi annexations from 1937 on were officially illegal). What I've said on this page is, that Klaipeda should be used from 1923 on - because the Lithuanian annexation of 1923 was recognized by the great powers in the interbellum. The ToV was rendered null as it regarded Klaipeda in a series of conventions up until 1932 at the Hague ("settled" if you will as provided for in the Treaty). I am sure that its name in the official English documents by then was Klaipeda, I do not have any at my disposal right now. There are many English sources that refer strictly to a Klaipeda region, such as U.S. Dept. of State. It's not exactly the same as Danzig as you suggest - as I said above the Free City of Danzig remained as constituted in the ToV throughout the interbellum - there was no recognized annexation by either Germany or Poland. heqs 21:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A quick search of "klaipeda region" on your favorite search engine reveals that the term has wide contemporary use, whether it is referring specifically to the area contained within the pre-annexation borders of the region, or just the general area around the city, I'm not sure. See also "klaipeda area". heqs 21:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The problem is such, that Lithuanian WP users directly translate Klaipėdos kraštas to English as Klaipėda Region, forgetting that during interbellum years (when this region existed) this historical region was named as Memel Territory or simply Memel like in Time (1935) --Tarakonas (talk) 11:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Memel Territory

message: I've added election results, and an alternative 1925 census result that distinguishes between Lithuanians and those who declared themselves as Memellandish. --Matthead 08:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elections and Census 

message: Two users have made total reverts 
 recently. Each time, sourced elections results and census data were deleted. This was either done unintentionally due to carelessness, or intentionally to deny facts which do not suit their POV. --Matthead 19:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Matthead, your German nationalistic POV-pushing is all too obvious and I'm not interested in engaging in a revert war with you only because you refuse to discuss your edits first. Calling me a vandal is abuse of the term and nothing less than a personal attack. You are also already in violation of 3RR. I'm not reporting you because I believe you had not noticed it and it's not my intention to have you blocked. I request that you revert to the undisputed version prior to your edits and explain your grievances here, before making any further controversial edits. --Lysytalk 22:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I support Lysy position. M.K. 22:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Too much change for a contriversial edit. It would be much better if you (Matthead) were to make small incremental changes, giving people a chance to agree or disagree with the change, also if there is a particular statment on the page now which you think is contriversial and does not have a proper citation please use the template , and give people a chance to come up with a citation for the information, or move the sentence  to the talk page for discussion --Philip Baird Shearer 08:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverts 

message: current version:		
:The Klaipėda Region (German: Memelland or Memelgebiet) or Memel Territory was historically a part of Prussia and the German Empire. Following World War I and the Treaty of Versailles in 1920 it fell under the administration of the Council of Ambassadors and was occupied by French troops.
new version by Matthead:
:The Memelland (also German:Memelgebiet, also referred to as Memel Territory or Klaipėda Region) was for over five centuries a part of Prussia and the German Empire.
It has been wildly agreed in articles to use the current name of a place unless, unless there is a traditional English name which is still used to describe the place, Eg Vienna. I would argue about whether the "ė" in "Klaipėda" should have an accent, but that is a separate issue. So placing Memelland first is no more acceptable than calling placing Danzig ahead of Gdansk on that page. Further AFAICT Memelland is not a common English word Post World War I the region tended to be called Memel Territory.
I also think that both version have too much history in the introduction. For example the Calais article does not mention in the introduction that for centuries it and the surrounding area was a English parliamentary constituency,  Something which is commonly mentioned in English history lessons is that  Mary I of England under who's watch it was lost, is reputed to have said "When I am dead and opened, you shall find 'Calais' lying in my heart" (Holinshed's Chronicles, IV, 1808).  History is left to the history section. Now if a town and a region (originally know as the Pale) as in the expression "beyond the pale", that was for many centuries English is structured that way, then for an article on a region that is very obscure to most English readers there is no reason to push history to the forefront. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well put, Phillip. Dr. Dan 16:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Ditto. --Lysytalk 22:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: It's quite strange to call Duchy of Prussia, Brandenburg-Prussia, Kingdom of Prussia not a single political entity. State of Teutonic Knights was in Prussia too. Changes of status don't change country. When France became republic, later monarchy, more later once again republic and so on - it still was France.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vulpes vulpes (talk • contribs) 
:Well, I'm using "political entity" more in the sense of a polity than a nation or body politic, so in France's case the revolutions and coupes certainly created different entities. Back to the subject at hand, setting aside when Prussia actually became Prussia or whether the various phases of Prussia as a "political entity" were continuous or singular, I actually reverted your edit because clearly, "the area" was not "always part of a single political entity until..." - the world didn't start in 1252. As for the list, which I think provides a useful summary to the reader, it might as well include all those sovereign powers which ever controlled the territory, which, as far as I know, it currently does. heqs 10:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, if You are using term in such sense, when a tribe becomes a political entity, then, of course, area not always been within single entity. But I don't agree that Kingdom of France, French Republic (No.1, No.2 etc.), French Empire (No.1 etc). is not the same France. If you say such phases of France were not the same political entity - France, then whole Wikipedia should be rewritten. For example, Corsica belongs to France not from 1768, but from 1958 because today's France is French Fifth Republic and other phases of France were not a France at all... --Vulpes vulpes 07:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Within Prussia

message: The Lithuanians in the Memelland spoke a Samogitian dialect, although not considering themselves as Samogitians, "klaipedischkiu kalba", "Memler Dialekt" or "burisch" and called themselves "burai" (peasants), other Prussian-Lithuanians were "Lietuvininkai".
Lutz Szemkus
:Don´t forget curonian north od river Minia/ Minja/ Minge (curonian name as well as Dange/ Dane) up to Nimerseta/ Nimmersatt and prussian languages! In 1569 a "confusion of languages" was noticed. -- Kaubri (talk) 10:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Regional identity based on dialect

message: It seems that one contributor trying to remove one of images, by providing arguments like "POV pushing" etc. Several contributors already noted that such approach is wrong, I only can repeat that picture illustrates monument in the region which belongs to Lithuania and it is the fact. And another fact is that till present day part of this region which belongs to LT is called Klaipėda region. Do not see any reason why it should be removed. M.K. (talk) 12:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: The writer of the article included the following sentence which I have deleted:
the Treaty of Versailles which had been perceived by the German-speaking peoples as humiliations. The Allies and neighboring countries had granted no concessions to the democratic German governments which had struggled for over a decade in the Weimar Republic; but when the hardliner Hitler took charge, these countries undertook a policy of appeasement of Nazi Germany.
It was deleted for a number of reasons, but largely because it is an outrageous oversimplification of an ongoing historical debate. Other reasons include the fact that it is merely confusing to talk of "concessions" without some context for the discussion. Concessions over what? Concessions for what purpose? (One might argue too, that under Stesseman, the Weimar Republic actually did achieve some "concessions" from the Allies; and when one considers that the amount of reparations was continually diminished, and after 1923, never really hoped for, then those too, become concessions which were indeed granted.) Moreover, to say that certain countries (un-named) undertook a policy of appeasement the moment Hitler became Chancellor, ie, from 1933 onwards, is not only absurd, it's demonstrably false. Appeasement properly refers to the deal Hitler and Chamberlain did over the fate of the Sudeten Germans in late 1938. By spring 1939, when Hitler seized the rump of Czecho-Slovakia, appeasement was dead, and recognized as dead by all the major powers. Perhaps worst of all is to describe Hitler as a "hard-liner" as if he were simply a slightly worse version of the German rightist nationalists who had helped him achieve power. The sentence not only adds nothing to the article, it is poorly thought out and presented, and contains errors.
And what are the precise sources of the census and voting data? The footnote leads only to a website that is devoted to the Deutsches Reich, the German Empire. Who attests the website? Just asking.
Theonemacduff (talk) 05:15, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Versailles Treaty  

message: Found here: D. Willoweit. Memel-Klaipėda im historischen Bewußtsein der Deutschen und Litauer in Annaberger Annalen 1998, p.S. 193:  "... daß Litauen seit seiner Union mit Polen, genau genommen also seit der Union von Lublin 1569, keinen eigenen Staat mehr bildete. Das litauische historische Denken kann daher für den Zeitraum
zwischen 1569 und 1918 litauische Geschichte nur als Geschichte des litauischen Volkes verstehen. Dann aber ist Litauen dort, wo Litauer siedeln. Daher ist auch die fünfhundertjährige Grenze zwischen Preußen
und Litauen, danach Preußen und Litauen-Polen und schließlich Preußen-Deutschland und Rußland, deren Bedeutung von den Deutschen so sehr betont wird, für Litauer in Wahrheit keine echte Grenze"
And p. 194: "Deutsche denken, wie Engländer oder Franzosen, wenn sie ihre Geschichte betrachten, in erster Linie an die Geschichte ihres Staates … .Die Geschichte der Deutschen in Kleinpolen oder an der Wolga wird kaum ein Deutscher als Teil der deutschen Geschichte begreifen, weil diese Gebiete stets außerhalb der deutschen Grenzen lagen. Diese Fixierung auf die Grenze als Ort, an welchem die Geschichte eines Staates und zugleich Volkes beginnt und endet, ist den Litauern - so mein Eindruck - weitgehend fremd." 
(Short translation: Because Lithuania had no own state, their thinking is so that they understand Lithuanian history only as history of Lithuanian people. In this case is Lithuania everywhere, where Lithuanians live. That´s why the 500 year old border between Prussia and Lithuania is no real border in Lithuanian understanding." ... Germans think like Englishmen and Frenchmen when they look at their history at first at history of state. .... A German would hardly see places in Poland or at river Wolga as a part of German history because these places are outside of the borders of the state. The specification on a border as a place where history of state and inhabitants begins and ends seems to be strange for Lithuanians") -- Kaubri (talk) 10:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: About Lithuanian Point of View

message: In the article is written: "Memel Territory nor returned citizenship and property to former inhabitants[dubious – discuss]." This information is correct. I am a former citizen of Memel prior to 1944. My father was a Lithuanian stemming from Central Lithuania (the area of Kaunas). My family owned two houses in the center of Memel.  In 2014, I wrote a letter to the Lord Mayor to return my family's properties to me as the single heir - the houses where I lived with my parents before the end of the war. He answered to me that he only can do it if there is a verdict of a court. However, a court solely can decide in favor of Lithuanian citizens pertaining to this matter. I lost my Lithuanian citizenship by the turmoils of the war.  I.e., no properties become returned if the concerned by nature or incident are no Lithuanian citizens, even today. 
84.15.182.133 (talk) 05:41, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: About the Return of Properties

message: I deleted the last paragraph ...
The former Memel Territory is of continuing vital importance to Lithuania, acting as an important harbour, as well as an industrial and agrarian region.
... because, 1) it sounds like it came from the Lithuanian Chamber of Commerce, and 2) it is erroneous in that the city of Klaipėda (ex-Memel), not the former Memel Territory as a whole, is an important harbor; the "entire territory" is otherwise composed mainly of farmland and small villages. 
Sca (talk) 22:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "Harbor"

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is reference in the demographical census table, a reference to three different groups, the Germans, the "Klaipėdan" (Memelländers) and the Lithuanians. Who were the "Klaipėdan" or "Memelländisch?" A blend of Germans and Lithuanians?Dogru144 (talk) 23:14, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: "Klaipėdan" or "Memelländisch," people without article

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion