Talk:Medical resident work hours

message: There are several peer-reviewed studies on the subject, e.g. in NEJM last year about the quality of care in Intensive Care Units. This is more reliable than some external links. JFW | T@lk 09:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While most residents would agree, the claims of "long, brutal hours", and "poor supervision" are all in fairly POV language and need tracing to a source that has qualified the working patterns as such. I have asked Ombudsman for sources. JFW | T@lk 09:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The points raised by the article are less of an issue with the ACGME 80 hour work week.  What has emerged are issues related to continuity of care that have been brought up by the NEJM article.  I'll put the reference in the article.  Andrew73 12:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It also neglects the situation in other countries. If there is to be a merge it is not a problem, but in Holland and the UK there is a European Working Time Directive which has effectively restricted hospitals from overworking doctors, forcing a shift-system rather than an on-call system and having its own problems with continuity of care. JFW | T@lk 17:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Certainly an issue in Australia 220.253.25.72 (talk) 03:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: There

message: I'm thinking this page would be better merged with residency (medicine).  --CDN99 15:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with merger.  I guess the key question is merge with residency (medicine) v. medical residency.  Andrew73 17:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Talk:Medical residency suggests that Medical residency be merged into residency (medicine) (that discussion is from Oct. 2005), so I'll probably merge everything tonight if there's no objections. --CDN99 18:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree with merger. Those two pages should be merged anyway. JFW | T@lk 17:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect the rv to the original version was accidental. JFW | T@lk 18:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahhh, I was wondering why things suddenly looked different...my mistake. --CDN99 18:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Then why bury the issue?  If the fact was so well known, why hasn't it been dealt with by means more effective than voluntary guidelines that are way too lax and likely not even complied with?  The system is terribly flawed because of the lack of debate, whether or not the fact is neglected.  The matter affects the lives and well being of many, as preventable hospital fatalities are among the leading causes of death in the US.  It is always so surprising to see every last xbox game and romance novelist have their own articles, but when it comes to the chance for a penetrating, in depth analysis of a major issue confronting medicine, the wagons circle, another article is killed off, and the Wiki is handed another disservice.  Hopefully, you will reconsider your hasty plans.  Ombudsman 03:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not "burying the issue," I'm allowing a merge vote to take place.  Is there a source for hospital fatalities due to doctors' mistakes (not due to opportunistic infection, diseases with no effective treatment nor patients refusing care) being the leading cause of death?  So many declare this as "fact," but so few can give a reliable reference. --CDN99 04:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd be for keeping it separate if it were made NPOV and referenced. It's an important subject in the US, at least. As for whether voluntary guidelines have been enough, I'd be interested in any data which suggests otherwise. I know I was working 90-110 some times before and less than 80 afterwards, but obviously anecdotal. InvictaHOG 11:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The votes are now 4 merge vs. 2 don't merge.  I just merged the two residency pages, but I'll leave this for a couple more days to see if anyone else has any comments. --CDN99 16:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I think good articles of each will be/should be (if they are comprehensive and thoughtfully written) too long to be merged. David Ruben  Talk  19:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The narrow US focus is my main problem with this.  As also mentioned by JFW | T@lk under Preview, there is a great deal of legislation and political impetus behind the reduction of doctors' hours in the EU and UK, and I don't think we yet have any articles on this, despite the major impact of several European Court rulings on the issue.  If this article was turned into one about long working hours for doctors in general, that would probably be useful - though it would then have to be retitled since "medical resident" is a US term. --Tobelia 00:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: In the UK it is Juniors' hours, no doubt other countries have other names, but it is the same thing.  Medical working hours would be a better one.  How about lawyers though?  Or troops?  Midgley 16:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask Ombudsman. It was his idea. JFW | T@lk 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not just the title - as mentioned above this is a specifically US-focused article (hence references to interns, the 80-hour work week, etc), although this is also a critical issue in Europe, and is also a matter of concern in Africa, India, Australia and elsewhere.  Before changing the title, I would first ask whether we ought to deal with other countries' long medical working hours in separate articles (which would make a stronger case for merging this one with medical residency), or whether we should expand this one to cover medical working hours in general, which would mean revising its layout somewhat. Tobelia 19:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  bad title 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article's lead does not seem to accurately summarize the contents of the article. Currently, the main points of the article lead include; the reported length of resident work hours, the nature of the work performed during those work hours, the manner in which residents are paid, and that there is evidence of misreporting work hours. From what I've read from the article, I suggest that the main points of the article lead should consist of; the reported length of the resident work hours, the reported effects of those long hours on resident health, and a statement summarizing the general direction of reforms for resident work hours. The currently written statements over the nature of the work performed during those hours and the manner in which residents are paid do not seem to be relevant to the article and should not be mentioned in the article lead, as they may be distracting to the reader. Al R.M. (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Clarity 

message: Under the Section Causes of High Workloads, the statement that some cases of emergency or chronic understaffing may see the disproportionate assignment of work to junior doctors should require some kind of citation. This statement may seem obvious, especially when you consider the information provided with existing links, but a link to some sort of case-study or report providing proper evidence for this behavior would really help to pull this article together. Al R.M. (talk) 19:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, under the Section Causes of High Workloads, the statement that the flexibility of the residency system leade to ease of abuse should include some sort of citation for the same reason that the previous statement I mentioned should be. While the information may seem obvious, it is important that it be supported by some sort of link to a study or report with evidence supporting the claim. Al R.M. (talk) 19:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation Missing 

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*Added archive https://archive.is/20121211093643/http://www.iom.edu/residenthours to http://www.iom.edu/residenthours
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110923160200/http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2008/Resident-Duty-Hours-Enhancing-Sleep-Supervision-and-Safety.aspx to http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2008/Resident-Duty-Hours-Enhancing-Sleep-Supervision-and-Safety.aspx
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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)