Talk:BAP (German band)

message: Name of article should be BAP (German band) to differentiate from myriad of other BAPs on disambig page. Also this would conform to terminology already used for BAP (Basque band). Anlace 19:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BAP is neither an abbreviation (in its true sense) nor is it a word in German or Kölsch. Also, Bap does not mean father, although Papp (double-p) means dad, and BAPP (double-p) is certainly a play-on-words on Papp. There is only one correct spelling of the band's name: BAP. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 19:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

text: The official way to write it is in capital letters. Check their official website, they always write BAP. If the band writes in it in capital letters, then they want to be known like that, it's not Wikipedia's business to distort facts.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.94.242.17 (talk) 08:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: Album titles need to be italicized, and song titles need to be enclosed in double quotation marks as per WP:MOSMUSIC. --DAJF (talk) 10:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: Some while ago I tried to rename this article from "Bap (German band)" to "BAP (German band)" in order to correct the capitalization of the band's name. Unfortunately, I was overruled by people pointing to the Manual of Style. Beyond this change in the article's title, I have also been reverted when trying to correct the capitalization of the band's name inside the article itself. And even when I tried to add a note stating that the band's name is officially written "BAP" (which is an undisputable fact beyond any style guide discussion), this gets deleted as well. I consider this a forceful suppression of facts. I assume the motivation to suppress this is to not point the readers to this inner inconsistency of the English Wikipedia with the rest of the world (as in "if we don't point this out explicitly, they may not recognize it"), but by creating the impression the band would be written "Bap" in the real world (that is, outside of the English Wikipedia), I don't think we do the readers a favor.
While I'm all for correct and consistent style (where possible and reasonable), after all these months I am still not the slightest convinced that we should knowingly settle on a false capitalization in the title and the text for the sole purpose of achieving compliancy with the MoS. The constant inflow of other people also commenting on the currently wrong capitalization we use here convinces me, that there really is something fundamentally wrong here - so we should do something about it.
While people are technically correct that the MoS suggests (not forces) a capitalization of BAP as "Bap" in the general case, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy and if rules don't fit and would lead to presenting falsehoods they should be ignored. After all, the idea of this project is to build an encyclopedia and one of its basic principles is to not invent facts and ensure verifiability. Unfortunately, as it stands, the article in the current form does exactly this -- invent facts, that there would be a German rock band named Bap. This is plain false, there isn't. There is only a German rock band named BAP. You will not find a single reliable source where the band's name would be stated as Bap, but you will find thousands of reliable sources (in German as well as in many other languages, including English) where the band's name is correctly written as BAP. This is consistent throughout both printed and online sources (including dozens of books) and has been so for more than thirty years from when the band was founded in the late Seventies up to the present. The band is also covered in articles in other language Wikipedias and is always written as BAP there as well - the only unholy exception is the English Wikipedia (and its derivatives). I think, this is very embarrassing.
Even the Manual of Style clearly states, that, "when deciding how to format a trademark, editors should choose among styles already in use (not invent new ones) and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English, regardless of the preference of the trademark owner." Since there has consistently only one style ever been used for the band's name ("BAP"), it is therefore wrong to use "Bap" inhere. (Someone used "LEGO" vs. "Lego" as an example - this is a very good example for what the Manual of Style discusses in general, however, this is also a totally different case from our's. I too would opt for "Lego" here, given that both forms exist in the real world and have been used as written text as well as in logos. In the BAP case, you will, without a single exception, only find "BAP".)
So, as odd as it is, the Manual of Style, which was created to help establish consistency, is technically abused here to create an inconsistency with the world outside the English Wikipedia. By trying to be technical (mostly) correct, we violate the higher principles and original ideas of this project. No good.
We should stop distributing falsehoods. As I see it, we have several options to achieve this:
The easiest way to comply with reality and move on (and f.e. add more contents to this project) would be to use common sense and consider the underlying purpose of the Manual of Style to create consistency, and then create this desired consistency by switching to the correct capitalization "BAP". I see this even supported by the MoS in the current form (see above), but for other's it may be an exception to the default. However, exceptions are okay, if there are good reasons -- and there are here.
The alternative would be to work on and improve the Manual of Style accordingly, so that in this and similar cases it allows the form BAP more obviously as it (IMHO) already allows it right now. This is more much work, and it may also have consequences for other articles, possibly including some with less obvious cases.
Yet another alternative (which I don't like at all, but still I'm mentioning it just to demonstrate the absurdity created by only technically relying on our rules instead of trying to act with a good portion of common sense and in their spirit) would be to delete this whole article since a band under the name "Bap" does not exist (at least not as a German rock band), that is, notability could not be established for this title then.
I would suggest option 1 since I don't want to waste my and anybody else's precious time on bureaucracy, when, as I see it, there is an easier solution which achieves the goal and does not harm otherwise. I hope we can find a working consensus here. Your comments are welcome. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct capitalization of the band's name: BAP 

message: On 18 January 2014‎ Loginnigol (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (16,950 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Loginnigol moved page Talk:Bap (German band) to Talk:Bap (band): redundancy) except it isn't redundant because there is B.A.P South Korean band I requested a technical move back page Talk:Bap (band) to Talk:BAP (German band) Requested at WP:RM as uncontroversial (permalink)) without seeing the previous RM. However the German article is still at BAP, album covers all at BAP, and Amazon.de at BAP, so not sure what to think now. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:40, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Tried to move back to Bap (German band) as RM result but requires a second tech move request. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:48, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Undiscussed move