Talk:Roguelike

message: Can more information about this group be provided?  I note that it has met in different cities over the last four or five years but I can't find very detailed information about its history/background, event content, attendance, etc.  It would be useful to know who organizes and hosts it, and if it has a public webpage or community forum. If this is an authentic and authoritative body, it probably needs a Wikipedia page as well.  50.54.225.39 (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Roguelike Development Conference 

message: "Spelunky (2008) by Derek Yu, The Binding of Isaac (2011) by Edmund McMillian, Dungeons of Dredmor (2011) by Gaslamp Games, and FTL: Faster Than Light (2012) by Subset Games were all..." - why does the article specify the developers of these games? That hardly seems important, unless the developers themselves are now really big in making roguelike games. Should I remove the "by..." parts? Maplestrip (talk) 09:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Little thing 

message: Can someone please add in references to Omega.  I played it and really enjoyed it. It is like Larn / Moria in that you have dungeons, but you also get to travel around on the surface. When you're on your horse in the wilderness your food goes really fast - so you can die easily.  It also had gods that you had to align yourself with (I don't think Nethack has this). 
Here are some websites that refer to it: http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Omega
http://www.roguetemple.com/2008/02/13/omega-for-windows-updated/
(also http://www.prankster.com/winomega/  and http://www.alcyone.com/max/projects/omega/ )
How important was it in the evolution of Roguelike Games? The first two links indicate that it influenced ADOM. It was released in the late 1980s.
Lehasa (talk) 15:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Omega's in there already (as the first RG to have an overworld), though we don't have a reliable source that connects Adom to it. --MASEM (t) 16:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. 198.2.69.104 (talk) 03:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omega 

message: We need a section to show people that Nethack and Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup are excellent games that are still very popular today. Are there others which many people still play?  Lehasa (talk) 15:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The difficulty is finding a source that says these are still played, even though this is likely true. I haven't been able to find any though we do point out that traditional roguelikes still are developed in the present. --MASEM (t) 16:17, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most Popular Rogue-Like Games Today 

message: I copied the lead section of this article into Role-playing_video_game#Roguelikes. The problem is that I don't know which references back up the content in the lead, since it is missing inline references. Could someone look it over and add the necessary citations? SharkD  Talk  19:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @SharkD, done. --MASEM (t) 19:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! SharkD  Talk  20:39, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copied lead into [[Role-playing video game]] 

message: The article doesn't mention any party-based roguelikes, which are an important departure from the standard development characteristics, IMO. Examples include GearHead, S.C.O.U.R.G.E. and Mysterious Castle. SharkD  Talk  20:52, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the only mention of multiplayer gameplay in roguelikes is in the "Key features" section, if I am not mistaken. "Most are single-player games ..." onwards. Might be something that needs to be talked about in a bit more detail. ~Mable (chat) 22:21, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not talking about multiplayer video games. I'm talking about Party (role-playing games). SharkD  Talk  22:28, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That would basically be the concept of a tactical RPG (controlling multiple characters) with roguelike elements, aka a roguelike-like. The problem is that I don't see much discussion of that in any third-party source as a "important departure" separate from roguelike-likes. --MASEM (t) 15:36, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, they are worth a mention. SharkD  Talk  21:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Party-based roguelikes 

message: Like in theme, Roguelike games mainly at the beginning was characterized by random localisations and incalculable actions which made that type of game very difficult, in past, commonly called as arcade game. Weak graphics in the beginning of computer technology caused that games weak graphics ability. Because of technology there was no possibility to save progress of game, at the beginning when character died that was his permanent dead.
Is today's permadeath mode introduced in today's game the same , and we can say that games from 80 introduced permadeath. I think this is not correct theory. In that way we can notify that first cosmology introduced Indians.--Darek555 (talk) 18:24, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we're saying that roguelikes "created" the concept of permadeath, simply that they used that idea of permadeath, which had already existing in previous games. A central feature, there from the start of roguelikes, was the notion of permadeath, but it wasn't the genre that invented that concept. --MASEM (t) 18:44, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduced roguelike games today's permadeath mode ? 

message: I think it shows lack of clarity and creativity to call any games "Something-like". We don't call Fantasy RPG "Dragon Age Like" or SciFi RPG "Mass Effect Like" or any Fantasy Movie / Novel as "Tolkien-Like". No Single author, or game or creation is a genre of its own.
So Rogue-Like should fall either to "platformer" or "casual games" if it does not have anything unique but lack of save feature ("perma death is not a requirement") 
MMORPG now should be called WOW-Like 
FPS now should be called Doom-Like 
RTS now should be called C&C-Like 
jRPG now should be called Final-Fantasy-Like
Platformers now should be called Mario-Bros-Like 
Sandbox Games now should be called GTA-Like 
~~William 15 Sep 2016
:Video game genres are often based on similarities to other video games, like Doom clone, Grand Theft Auto clone, Metroidvania, and Breakout clone. This is how video game culture works. You can go and try to create a unique word for roguelikes abs see if it catches on like [first-person shooter]], but language is purely cultural, so good luck. We don't name things here on Wikipedia: that's not our job. ~Mable (chat) 07:35, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You are certainly right we want to avoid being Urban Dictionary (and in fact, we have WP:NEO for that reason), but however, "roguelike" is used throughout sources to describe this type of game, and that's what we go by. "Roguelike-like" "Rogue-lite" and all that, those are very diffuse, and you can't find a strong definition for it, for certain, but it is a work associated with "roguelike", and all those variations are used throughout sources, so we're sorta stuck with it. --MASEM (t) 02:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've personally held the belief for a long time that video game genre terms absolutely suck. Roguelike is the least of our worries, honestly. But yeah, none of this really worries me. You should contact influential publications like PC Gamer, Destructoid, etc, if you want to "change" the way these words are used. As I said, we just document whatever catches on culturally. Wiktionary has a definition for bae too. There's just not much to say about it from an encyclopedic point of view yet. ~Mable (chat) 09:17, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Engadget and Destructoid are now using the term roguelike or rogue-lite 2001:569:76D2:AF00:B58D:63CE:566E:39D7 (talk) 22:51, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Rogue-Like really exist or just bad taxonomy? 

message: Shouldn't there be such a separate section? Especially before the genre's resurgence in indie games, there was a small, devoted and almost cult-like community to these games. Example, see what I found from a five-minute search: Gamasutra: "overlap between player and developer" especially Josh Ge's quotations. One current given ref "Where I'm @: A Brief Look At The Resurgence of Roguelikes" says stuff like " For all the supposed elitism of roguelikes, I've never encountered communities which are more welcoming, sharing and friendly..." and goes on further. There's must be more refs too.  Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:38, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Another reason for it would be that most of these games are open-source, thus increasing community participation. But even major longstanding ones without it like ADOM (besides closed source, it's not even freeware anymore I think) and Dwarf Fortress, have active communities. That has been raised with the developers (PC gamer interview) and fans guessing, reverse-engineering it for writing wikis or making mods etc. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 15:13, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

text: Its quite reasonable to create a section for this which I've done, though how much more we can add without going to wikia/etc. might be difficult. --MASEM (t) 15:14, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Community section 

message: Should we create a :Category:Roguelike-like video games category? What games should go in it? SharkD  Talk  21:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that there's a potential OR issue, I think that 1) that cat should be a subcat of :Category:Roguelike video games and 2) it is a non-diffusing sub-cat (a game can exist in both). Once that is set up, then I think it would not be OR to say "this is considered a roguelike, but it clearly looks nothing like what the Berlin Interpretation anticipates, so it is a roguelike-like", as one with Spleunky or FTL." We aren't going to have most sources actually called the roguelike-likes as roguelike-likes; they will still use "roguelike" as a bulk name. This also avoids having to get too far into the weeds of how much the Berlin Interpretation applies, as if we can't easily make a very quick non-analysis decision, it should just remain at the higher level (such as the case with Drawf Fortress. --MASEM (t) 23:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds fine. SharkD  Talk  01:13, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  New category 

message: In this article Jaakko Tapani Peltonen of NetHack: Falcon's Eye talks about some of the positive traits and disadvantages of roguelikes when compared with other CRPG genres. It is his opinion of course. It might be useful for the article though. SharkD  Talk  23:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advantages/disadvantages of roguelikes versus other CRPG genres 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: * Maybe half of the content is inappropriate to an encyclopedic list of features, like how to circumvent them, commentary about them, or comparing features in early and later variations of roguelikes. Either each bullet item should concisely describe a single key feature of roguelike games, or the whole section should be reorganized into article format with paragraphs, which would allow for some of the tangential bits to be included.
* The last line of the opening paragraph states that the list derives straight from the Berlin Interpretation. But the list explicitly includes things from outside the BI, such as rivers, and mentions things which are common to roguelikes, but not specified under BI, like whether they can be multi-player ("single-player" being different from "single player character"). Either the list should strictly conform to BI (perhaps referring to deviations parenthetically?), or the opening paragraph should be altered to reflect that the list does not follow BI, and is merely descriptive of games generally considered roguelike.
* The Berlin Interpretation has a stated purpose and two levels of importance for features. All this must be incorporated into the top paragraph in the section, if reference to BI is kept. And before that, a justification for only using BI definitions has to be made.
--Atkinson (talk) 05:12, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Key features" issues 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: As time goes, roguelike-likes are becoming far more common, and the lack of a separate page and categories is resulting in a lot of miscategorization and misinformation. As of right now, Roguelite redirects to this page, although I've made it at least redirect to the roguelike-likes subsection.
--Asmageddon (talk) 20:27, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is needed. What makes a roguelite is so diffuse with the only consistency being randomness and permadeath that a separate page would not be useful when much ties to the roguelike genre itself. Further, the industry has a whole has yet to figure out where a roguelike ends and roguelite begins (the term is inconsistently used). --Masem (t) 18:29, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should a new page be created for roguelites and roguelike-likes? 

message: I already made a couple minor edits adding this word in but the whole article might need to be reworded for better comprehension.
Unless "run" is more of a modern, roguelite thing and people don't call Rogue games "runs".
The sentence "The identity of magical items, including magically enchanted items, varies across games." just sounds wrong since the meaning can be interpreted two different ways.
Give me your thoughts.
Ben R4m-Z (talk) 17:10, 7 October 2018
:Maybe "runthrough" or "playthrough" - "run" is a tiny bit too informal. Nothing against the change to separate "game" from "run". --Masem (t) 17:21, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "New Game" vs "Run" 

message: I looked through the references, and I couldn't find a single one that used the term roguelike-like. Even the interview with Digital Eel, the only developers who are referenced to have used it, indicates that they dropped the extra "-like" early on and believe that roguelike is the proper umbrella term. Everyone from fans to industry to the press only uses the terms roguelike and roguelite, so the constant use of this term in "Growth of the roguelike-like" smells very WP:NEO.
Based on this article, it appears to now be a joke term.
Perhaps "Evolution of the Roguelike" would be a better section header, and the use of "traditional roguelike" when necessary to refer to the strict "Berlin interpretation" games. --SilverbackNet talk 20:59, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Its's still a term comes up, I think "roguelite" has been the more "preferred" version. But in terms of NEO, we're not using either term to describe these games (eg elsewhere, roguelite are not called that, just "roguelike"). --Masem (t) 21:06, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is "roguelike-like" [[WP:NEO]]? 

message: To the IP editor that keeps adding this: I am well aware that a minority of die-hard, Berlin Interpretation-roguelike players take issue with the use of "roguelike" to describe the newer games ala Spleunky. Unfortunately, we don't have any reliable sources that make this case, and we are required to have those. We cannot just make claims without such sources (that's original research), and its also a minority viewpoint, and so forcing that is against the neutral POV policy. 
If you continue to try to add it without showing sources, you will likely be blocked. --Masem (t) 13:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "co-opting" 

message: Is there a reason this article is still using this term? It is not a term used in any of the major game distribution platforms, news articles, or any relevant/recent sources I can find relating to roguelikes (I believe Nuclear Throne is the only game I can find that even references the term). Can we move to have this term removed (or at the very least mentioned far less) and replaced with the more modern term "Roguelite", which is much more prevalent? In particular "Roguelite" is widely used on Steam, within news articles (both minor and major), in reddit/forum communities, and perhaps most importantly referenced by many developers themselves as a descriptor for their games. Some examples of games directly citing the term include Dead Cells, Noita, Streets of Rogue, Synthetik, and more - all according to their official game descriptions within Steam.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.165.173 (talk) 23:08, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems reasonable to me - I would agree that roguelike-like is rarely seen in relevant external sources TheSLEEVEmonkey (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: "Roguelike-like" still has historical relevance, but I do agree that "roguelite" should be the predominate term. --Masem (t) 20:07, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roguelike-like outdated, unused term? 

message: The article is too repetitive. It's obsessive about permadeath (14 mentions, two of which are in the opener). Is there some way to make it more elegant?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.194.65 (talk) 09:48, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Permadeath permadeath permadeath (on and on) 

message: But this article is filled with bad faith. It is not my fault but a fault on who writes it.
* Opinionated about permadeath and some features that are considered as "must-have" but they are arbitrary.
* What is (or what features must have) a rogue game is a GUIDELINE, not a RULE.
* A lot of arbitrary examples.  Nethack for example, it's right because of their predominancy but most examples are MARKETING and hand-picked.   
* Everything in "Growth of the rogue-lite (2005-onward)" is trash, it doesn't contribute with anything that it was already explained.
* A lot of link-spam. For example, Engadget, why Engadget is here?.
16:21, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assume good faith 

message: This article takes a very narrow view of Rogue-likes, ignoring Eastern titles that helped grow and expand the genre. In particular the Mystery Dungeon and Shiren series of games; Z.H.P. and The Guided Fate Paradox.
These titles (Mystery Dungeon and Shiren in particular) were inspired by the original Rogue and introduced the genre to Japan.
Daigoji (talk) 16:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Important Eastern Roguelikes 

message: "Dead Cells, a roguelike incorporated with Metroidvania-style of platform games;[102] Slay the Spire, bringing roguelike progression to a deck building game;[103] Crypt of the Necrodancer which uses a rhythm game-style approach in a roguelike dungeon;[104] and Enter the Gungeon which establishes roguelike progression in a shoot 'em up.[105] Hades, a roguelike action role-playing game, was built to strongly incorporate elements of non-linear narrative into the game, giving the reason for the player to continually delve into replaying the game, and helped to draw in players to the roguelike genre that otherwise had been put off by its high difficulty level before.[106][107]"
With the exception of Crypt and Hades, these games mentioned call themselves a roguelite or another genre borrowing roguelike elements on their store page. They do not refer to themselves as a roguelike which is being inferred by the above section. Examples:
* https://store.steampowered.com/app/588650/Dead_Cells/ - "Dead Cells is a rogue-lite, metroidvania inspired, action-platformer."
* https://store.steampowered.com/app/646570/Slay_the_Spire/ - "We fused card games and roguelikes together to make the best single player deckbuilder we could."
* https://store.steampowered.com/app/311690/Enter_the_Gungeon/ - "Enter the Gungeon is a bullet hell dungeon crawler following a band of misfits seeking to shoot, loot, dodge roll and table-flip their way..."
And as a point of order, Hades is falsely advertised as a roguelike on their store page, it doesn't have permadeath and is full of meta progression. The whole game revolves around keeping things between runs. Even IGN calls it a rogue-lite: https://www.ign.com/articles/hades-review
This section is named "Growth of the rogue-lite" - can we please keep our roguelike vs roguelite language clean and consistent so as not to be misleading?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.203.96.9 (talk) 16:34, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is still that what differentiates a roguelike from a roguelite is still vague, and as such, they still get classified as "roguelikes". (Hades does have a permadeath mechanic, BTW). We acknowledge that there is this roguelite term, but what that is far to vague to create a genre for --Masem (t) 03:13, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Games that are being called roguelikes in the article, but do not identify themselves that way 

message: Vampire Survivor has none of the traits of roguelikes mentioned in the opening paragraph of the article, it's just an arcade-style game with meta-progression. The article given as a source stating games like it constitute a subgenre of roguelikes only says it has roguelike elements and does not say it is a roguelike game, nor does it claim that there is an entire subgenre of roguelikes with these elements. Given that the game only game out two years ago, I find it extremely unlikely that it has already spawned a distinct genre. Since the claim is not sound and misleads people as to the nature of roguelikes, I believe that claim should be removed. 128.187.116.4 (talk) 01:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It has permadeath (you can't even save during one run) and has procedural elements in terms of the leveling bonuses. RSes call it such. It probably fails many of the Berlin Interpretation traits of a true "roguelike" but absolutely fits into "roguelite" but because there is a huge gray area of these terms, we purposely avoid "roguelite" and call such games "roguelikes". Masem (t) 01:19, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vampire Survivor is not a roguelike 

message: Reference 18, The Berlin Interpretation, is used about a dozen times in the article. However, the link does not work. 178.235.184.97 (talk) 17:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I marked the URL in the ref as dead, now the title links to an archived version.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 18:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference 18 (the berlin interpretation) link is broken 

message: The redirect Roguevania has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Utopes (talk / cont) 20:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:Roguevania]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]