Talk:Pope Pius XII/Archive 3

message: Well, I note that finally you allow reference to Memory and Identity and the criticism of democracy contained therein (according to the newswire) and maybe this is indicative of a change. however the fact remains that you delete and whitewash at every opportunity. Still today you refuse to allow that the Jewish consternation reported on television is allowable . This you delete which puts you at odds with the news editor at Euronews who ensured that the public in Europe were told of this. Of course this is equally not allowed on the relevant Pope's page. The above observations remain relevant – to say that then Hitler was right, even within dialectics, is to invite the observations.
Really I can see nothing further that I need to say: you are not open to the contradiction between Humanae Vitae and co-operation with Nazism nor wish to advise on what should be done. I can only repeat that the present Pope should institute a Court of Enquiry to enable the co-operation to be disclosed. The facts of it are finally admitted in the article so I have achieved something. I can withdraw now saying only read your encyclicals, ye faithful, Dilectissima Nobis and Humanae Vitae, that I regret having to observe your mind and use the terms I did. I think you could leave this open discussion for all to see so people can judge for themselves. Renewed whitewashing will presumably be noticed by someone. A rapid archiving here will signal whitewashing. 
Flamekeeper 08:20, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intervention in Democracy and the Civil Order (Continued)

message: He consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1942.
What does this mean? Marnanel 03:03, May 25, 2004 (UTC)
This might help: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/immaculh.html
Str1977 18:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious Question 

message: A Request for Comments directed me to this talk page as well as a few other pages.  
It is not entirely clear to me without going through multiple archives what the original issue was.  It does appear that the discussion on this page is getting rather tense.  Can we please stay civil and remember the rules of Wikiquette?
Robert McClenon 14:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comments? 

message: As requested , an example fron just one of many pages of |Str1977 censorship/massage for the vatican , and against right thinking free-speech sources etc. This is not for str to lengthen now, he can do that under his arbitration space .
29 March : 199.106.94.229 rem's large sections.Only reg'd action by anons 4 hits
:wasn't me.
0906 20 April: First hit by Str as 24.91.139.250
Again, this wasn't me. (though he's right)
01.39 4 may. Str rem secret clause, christ dictator=rship, danger to democ'y etc (JPII topicality)
:Yes, that was me and I can clearly stand by this edit. What I removed was either unsourced, misleading or just plain wrong.
01.53 " Str massages , 'not explicit enough'
:I agree this change was wrong, as the sentence talked about "fiercely condemned by the press today" and they condemn him for not speaking out. Of course, the truth is different since he did speak out. Hence my mistake.
02.08 " 1) Sts incl Dutch reprisals . 2) rem Chief rabbi conversion , 3) rem 300,000 saved
:1) I included a historical fact and one that is unquestionably important, what's wrong about that.
:alleged edits 2) and 3) do not exist
02.27 " Str rem.  dangers Lib Parliamentary Democ'y(JPII Euronews etc)
:No, I did not remove. I remplaced "who cites it as an example of the dangers associated with Liberal Parliamentary Democracy." with "who cites it as an example of the dangers present even in a Democracy" - because that's what the late Pope wrote in his book. He says that not only dictators can do wrong, democracies can do wrong too. Democracy is no foolproof safeguard.
07.22 Anon only edit on WP rem. Hochluth play as spam
:Wasn't me. Granted I despise the whole work of Hochhuth (please learn how to spell!) because of his untruthfulness, his slander, his condoning of assassinations and also dislike his selfrighteousness and his chummy-ness with one David Irving, but I did not remove this. In fact, I think a mentioning of Hochhuth's slanderous play is actually on-topic and not spam, though the play is spam (no not spam, spam can be eaten).
08.49 " Str rem. 'farce' of  Pius XII bodily remains
:Im removed one paragraph that didn't provide any useful information and was written in a gloating, mocking language. No need to gloat over a dead man's corpse, even if you dislike him.
08.51 " Str rem, Croatia pic
:Because "pictures don't tell the tale" - it was anti-catholic propaganda
08.57 " Str rem. link to  article
:yes, dead link
09.01 " Str rem Freespeechorg link
:another dead link
22.27 " FK rev 'Christ. Dict.'(prev sourcing Wiesenthal Timeline , not accepted, error:was Humanitas)
:no unsourced or rather wrongly (!!) sourced to encyclica "Dilectissima nobis", a document relating not to Germany or dictatorship but to the Spanish government and their violation of human rights (religious freedom, property etc)
22.28 " FK replaces JPII controv.
:no, FK did nothing of the kind
23.05 " str  rem. Christ Dictatorship  Encyclical
:removed wrong things again: unsourced "christian dictatorship" and alleged "countering separation of ...", would have been an euphemism for opression of religious freedom
23.07 " Str rem. Centre & policy of Vatican re same , 
:removed unfounded, untrue, unsourced claims about alleged Vatican policies
5 May  ,Sam Spade highlights Christ Dict (Dilectissima Nobis), Str alludes to  yr 1667
:no, Sam Spade wikilinks to a yet to be written entry on that document - no allusion to anythin by me (or anyone else - what article are you reading?)
01.36 10 may FK repl. 'danger to democ'y-JPII
:yes, one of the world wide famous "Critics say..." quotes
22.58 " Str rem danger controv
:Removed this because I disputed (and still dispute) that this questions "have re-surfaced becaise of the moves toward canonisation for Pope Pius XII, and recent reference to the Enabling Act in the book" FK obviously thinks otherwise, and hence:
23.12 " FK rv
01.26 " 11 may Str rv's , moves  2 pics positions
Yes, no problem with that, or do you? Or do you ?? (and the time is 7.26)
10.29 "  FK rv's , Anon  also rv's pics
:- it's 11 May by now!
23.13 " Str rem. 'Jewish anger'(euronews)
:as I said the sentence "maybe, but off-topic", since this was about the enabling act and not the holocaust or abortion (and remember this about P12 and not JP2)
05.53 "  ret,. Croatia link/pic adds J. Cornwell link 
:Revision as of 05:33, 16 May 2005, User: 24.60.129.139
:for qualification of the first link see above, the second link is from the same website but it is the same link that has already been included further down
22.18 " Str adds POV apparition(POVfaith etc)
:unneeded disclaimer - some people don't believe in such things and will not after reading this. Also the apparitions are fact, but what they actually are, that's POV.
00.56 17? May Str rem. pic PXII in Berlin by rv of positions of the 2 pics
:Date is the 19 May (why can't you look it uo correctly ?)
:I moved the Berlin picture to the section that covers his stint as nuncio during which the picture was made. Hence it belongs there (and if you disagree I can only speculate about the motives, it's sme..). And I deleted the redundant second display of the same picture.
16.29 19 May Str distracts 
There's no edit at 16.29 - and nothing spectacular near the time.
16.32 " Str rem. Humanae Vitae (not FK's)
:yes, I just straigthened the paragraph - the issue was disobedience to "Birth control" ruling - that's still in there, as it should - not need to shout about this.
17.24  ?  Anon  as before 24.170.40.179 repl. Rabbi conversion, saving of 300, 000 of Jews 
:It's 3 August by now
:again not me - though the edit is valid - why should it be excluded
18.11 31 July Str rv's  user DieWiebeRose
:there's no edit on 31 July
:Str1977 20:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Censorship/massage (Pope Pius XII)