Talk:Jim and Mary McCartney

message: In the film A Hard Day's Night Wilfrid Brambell plays the character of Paul McCartney's grandfather. The other Beatles express surprise and say that this isn't Paul's grandfather, who lives with him; Paul replies that everyone is entitled to two grandfathers and this is the other one. The article presently identifies this character as Owen Mohan, citing IMDB (which just describes him as "Grandfather"), but when I watched the film on the television the other day I thought I heard the him refer to himself as Joe McCartney. Can anyone clarify? Opera hat (talk) 11:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The film was totally fictional, even though it featured The Beatles as themselves. Brambell was only acting the part of McCartney's grandfather, and his role had no connection with McCartney's real parentage.--andreasegde (talk) 23:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, yes, I know. I was just wondering whether either of McCartney's grandfathers did live with him, and if so which. Opera hat (talk) 10:25, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Thank you! Opera hat (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul's grandfather in ''A Hard Day's Night'' 

message: It's plainly clear that they don't deserve their own article at Wikipedia.  Kith and kin of famous people are nothing, if they have no merit by their own lives.  Sorry to shit on your fantasy, Beetle brains.  Catterick (talk) 01:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the respectful comment to editors who've worked hard here.  By the way - you might have noticed that this has been classified as a "Good Article" above.  Any idea what that means? Tvoz/talk 07:23, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

text: McCartney's childhood doesn't need its own article and if it was about him, then the title would reflect that.  Useless fancruft.  A Merry Old Soul (talk) 12:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

text: You have no concept of what makes a person the way they are. It is their upbringing and genes. McCartney's parents had a direct influence on their son, which is what made him the person he is. Are you not like your own parents? Think about it. --andreasegde (talk) 21:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

text: You obviously don't like your parents much. :) --andreasegde (talk) 15:55, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

text: You obviously can't answer my question  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.144.10 (talk) 22:07, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't know about formatting replies.--andreasegde (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-notable biography 

message: The same discussion was started in 2011 but wasn't resolved, so I figured that it should be restarted. Yeah, I think it is very clear that the context of the article in non-notable, we can't just say that the family of an influential figure  is notable by itself. And yes, the article has GA status granted in 2007, but that doesn't have to affect the discussion on its notability, as the subject was never resolved. So, I think that the article's GA status should be cut off and the article placed in AfD, because as I said, it lacks notability and interest. - Phill24th (talk). 09:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bringing back discussion on the article's notability 

message: Hello. Since Mary's maiden name was changed by her father before her birthday, when he was in school, her maiden name was Mohin not Mohan. The introduction needs fixing. 174.3.185.67 (talk) 10:11, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction is inaccurate but can't be directly edited 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071020174240/http://liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/exhibitions/mccartney/home.asp to http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/exhibitions/mccartney/home.asp
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:51, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: This article has in the last little while been submitted for Good Article reassessment (kept - closed by me) and deletion (no consensus). There is currently some edit warring on whether it should be merged into Personal relationships of Paul McCartney. The merge itself has already occurred here, so it is more a case of whether this article should redirect to that section. I can see arguments both ways, so am pretty much neutral at this stage. AIRcorn (talk) 22:14, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Support merge - seems a good compromise out of the AfD result. I think I've set everything I need to about the article there. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:17, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Support merge - clearly the only reason these two have any claim of notability is through their famous son. If Paul McCartney was a rubbish collector in Liverpool, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Virtually every source is a book on either Paul, or the Beatles. Onel5969 TT me 23:58, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Stop Redirect → The merge doesn't so much as provide a synopsis of Paul McCartney's parents — his mother Mary isn't even mentioned! Mozart's mother, father, and sister each have separate articles devoted to them. The U.S. congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. has a separate Wikipedia article for his father. In fact, the father of John Lennon has a separate article with a designated Wikipedia GA rating. In essence, for those users that want a more detailed account of McCartney's parents, the full article should be kept available. Engines On (talk) 00:34, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we get those editors, that helped to develop the article, engaged in this discussion? Unfortunately, some major contributors have either retired from Wikipedia or are henceforth unavailable. I had no input in it, but I found the article fascinating. It would be a disservice to the Wikipedia community to only have a merge — it's obvious that a merge would decimate the intriguing contents of the original article — whereby this rush to a "search and destroy" mission is unwarranted. Engines On (talk) 17:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Well let’s see... the first thing we know about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, besides the fact that he was Austrian, is that his father Leopold was a notable teacher of his era, who also taught him as a child. Obviously for that reason, there are many historical references about his life and compositions that are not substantiated upon the life of Wolfgang. Same with Adam Clayton Powell Sr. who has historical records for himself including United States archives. You’d think common sense was common but sadly it’s not. Many of his family members do not need articles because their notability is inherited, such as his mother Anna Maria and his mother-in-law Cäcilia Weber. That’s why Alfred Lennon’s article was merged to John Lennon’s early life... rightfully so. What did they do that was noteworthy in their lifetime besides be related to a famous musician? That’s what you all don’t seem to get. Wikipedia is not for what people want to know about the family memebers of famous people just because they’re family members. This is not a fan site. If you’re “fascinated” by a random smattering of anecdotes then maybe take a trip to Liverpool. Trillfendi (talk) 01:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I deduce that you're not on a "search and destroy" mission for the loads of prominent figures whose parents and obscure siblings are given individual articles. Alfred Lennon did have a separate article until April 11, 2019, in which I inadvertently gave a heads-up to  for a merge to John Lennon. That action was reckless as well. Anyway, you mentioned on another occasion that Jimi Hendrix doesn't have a separate article for his parents, quite frankly, they merit one too. The Jackson 5 — less noteworthy musicians than either Paul McCartney or Jimi Hendrix — have multiple comprehensive articles about their family, individual articles for both the mother and father and even one afforded a prosaic sibling (talk about a merge). Outside of music, there are individual articles for the mother and father of the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin. I could go on with others like Einstein and his family, but you get the picture. Engines On (talk) 05:33, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s almost as if... Joe Jackson was their manager (and to a lesser degree in the early years so was Katherine.) Judging by Hendrix’s article, the only remarkable thing about them was that they were slightly multiethnic which doesn’t make an article. Al’s military career wasn’t exceptional. And still, everything known about them comes from books about their son. See the pattern. Trillfendi (talk) 19:48, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points, Miss. Leopold Mozart had a remarkable career, although the finest contribution to his legacy was his son. Adam Clayton Powell Sr. is historically significant in his own right. Mr. and Mrs. Jackson, having played active roles in the musical careers of their kids, certainly are justified in getting separate articles — the justification for a Randy Jackson article is a puzzlement.  Managers such as The Beatles' Brian Epstein and Led Zeppelin's  Peter Grant have their Wikipedia articles. I noticed that golfing great Tiger Woods has a Wikipedia article for his dad, but not for his mom. Colonel Woods introduced and taught golf to his son, which was significant enough, but he had a distinguished military career also. Mick Jagger surprisingly had no individual articles reserved for his parents. But — you had me thinking — merely being the progenitor of an extraordinary person, may not necessarily qualify somebody for recognition. A father could be a bum and his fame would be parasitic on his son's reputation and achievement. Conversely, is it fair to suggest (as I did below) that if a luminary doesn't have individual articles for his parents, that it's somehow dimming? Absolutely not! Which renders my argument below, concerning the necessity for  an illustrious figure to have separate parent articles, as dubious. However, there's a natural inclination for wanting to know more about those responsible for procreating a genius like Isaac Newton or a stunning beauty like Grace Kelly. We care to know about the parents of a hero, because we care about the hero. Engines On (talk) 05:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. So we go and buy a biography or two about our hero(es) and read to our heart's delight ... Job done, without interfering with the integrity of the encyclopedia. JG66 (talk) 09:18, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, , but don't you think that a musical genius, beloved and revered worldwide for over a half of a century, a force of nature — not just an immense influence, should be an exception? I say absolutely yes!!!! The public wants at its fingertips access, now and for posterity, to information about the ingredients that brought about the great Paul McCartney. Engines On (talk) 02:09, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No. JG66 (talk) 08:08, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

text:  That's not how any of this works. That's beyond illogical—it's nonsensical. Stupid even. Trillfendi (talk) 16:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Miss, you're responding to an earlier post dated: 05:33, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Most of the articles seem to have principally been the work of now retired . More recent Beatles work has been done by (sadly) now retired , JG66 and me, amongst many others. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:20, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Good point. It's often assumed that WP:N is a WP:GA? criterion, which of course it is not. ——SerialNumber54129 07:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, that's stupid. Of course a good article has to be notable, how on earth can the article be completely verifiable to reliable sources otherwise? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Wot. ——SerialNumber54129 15:31, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Have you seen all the GA articles on roads? If it is not notable then they often can be failed for lack of verifiability or even broadness. Notability and quality can be mutually exclusive and we have separate processes to deal with notability. Conversely being a good article should not impact whether an article should be merged. AIRcorn (talk) 18:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Although I've written a few highway / transport GAs such as Dartford Crossing, A82 road, and A303 road, I wrote them because I felt they were notable in their own right - the A303 in particular covers environmental issues, traffic and safety, so even Swampy (who I am reliably informed hates roads) wouldn't mind reading it. But yeah there are plenty of "good articles" like "Iowa State Road 666 starts at Podunk and travels north north eastwards for 14 miles before a junction with state road 678 at the former mining community of Gabble Rachett, oh my god I'm so excited I might just die" that really should be sent to AfD, but last time I tried that a lot of people got mightily upset. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:40, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: While there are definitely roads that are notable, I too have participated in road deletion debates for some of the more mundane ones. The general keep argument is along the lines of wikipedia also being a gazetteer, which is helpfully enshrined in WP:5P. A long time ago I had a bit of a clash with some of the road editors on GA issues. Mainly that it was a bit too in house with the wikiproject imposing a lot of style guidelines that were not covered by the criteria and the overuse of primary sources. To be fair they were very pleasant and are usually quite willing to merge non-notable roads together. Doesn't really help the primary source issue, although I do recall an argument that maps are not primary sources which I struggled to follow. And don't get me started on the impact sport specific notability guidelines or fan obsession with pop songs has had on GAs. Once a single sentence stub of a baseball player was nominated (thankfully it failed). Anyway this has already digressed too much. Lets just say this is far from the worst article I have seen that has been classified as good or better with questionable notability (Wikipedia:Featured topics/Australian cricket team in England in 1948 for extreme specificity). Sometimes it is easier to just shrug, be happy that editors want to add content and move on to other issues. AIRcorn (talk) 11:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exactly, I don't see the harm to the integrity of Wikipedia by maintaining this page for Paul's parents, especially considering some of the junk pages that abound in Wikipedia. I think the McCartney parents page is fine and should remain. Engines On (talk) 03:10, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

text: That is pretty unambiguous. Please don't do that , it only weakens your case and the !vote of any person you ask to comment here. I added a talk page notification at the Beatles wikiproject when opening the merge discussion and that should suffice in letting any interested people know. AIRcorn (talk) 18:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I was pushing the envelope, so I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted as recalcitrance. Engines On (talk) 00:55, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

text: To dismiss this article as frivolous is unfounded. The McCartneys — before there even was a Paul — led engrossing lives. The page has material that explores the McCartney family tree which included upholsterers, plumbers, and painters originally from Ireland. We learn that Paul's dad was involved in the production of armaments during World War II and endured air-raids in Liverpool from German bombers. We learn, sadly, that Paul's mom didn't live to witness her son's phenomenal success. Engines On (talk) 22:18, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Definitely the images must remain. If this article redirects to an inadequate section of the Personal relationships of Paul McCartney article, then how does that benefit the Wikipedia community or the public at large? It doesn't! The contents of the debated article contain easily accessible absorbing information. For example, you alluded to the impetus for the song "Let It Be" — learning how happy Paul was to "visit" his mom again in a dream, he had a dozen years after she died, was quite moving. Engines On (talk) 21:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

text: " The second pillar, however says " Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:50, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

text: This right here is the problem. Beatles mania should never blind logic. Trillfendi (talk) 20:17, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

text: *Engines On, you quite frankly are trying way too hard to get this page kept. Please give it a rest already. You need to view this from an objective and professional perspective, not through the eyes of a fan. The quote "The McCartneys are a dynasty, therefore that status legitimizes the need for an individual page for the forebears of that dynasty" is quite a stretch, and so is calling this article a "valuable resource" when all of the material of encyclopedic value is already included on Paul's page and/or the article on his relationships. Just because Paul is hugely famous doesn't automatically mean all of his family members are. We're not supposed to be a Beatles fansite or a family history site. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 06:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

text: Every irrelevant Beatles family member (who isn’t Stella, Sean, or Julian) vehemently require reassessment, deletion, or merging by now. Period. It’s endemic. What in God’s green earth did Julia Baird do to get a "good article"? What did George Smith do besides, in "Mimi Smith"'s words  (John)? It’s a shameful abuse of BLP, my goodness, why do we need pictures of these dead people’s houses? <S>Oh but when I point these things out it’s "pointism"
 It’s the most unreasonable, preposterous, and stupid thing I’ve come across on this website. Beatles memorabilia with some Google maps! Trillfendi (talk) 16:45, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: "... who isn’t Stella, Sean, or Julian". Er, there are a few more, you know – Dhani Harrison, Zak Starkey. JG66 (talk) 17:23, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It’s implied. Those who have established careers are notwithstanding (the Georgia May Jaggers, Liv Tylers, Wolfgang van Halens, Zoë Kravitzes of the world). Other than that this family cookout going on has to end. Trillfendi (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge discussion