Talk:Northern Epirus Liberation Front

message: In the article of Chams
* That figure of 5300 cham fighters (if Ruches says 3500 chams volunteers) is a BS story. (see talking page at chams article here )
* In the issue of Italian general Tellini once again Ruches cited here Corfu incident is again wrong (putting blame on Albanians) because if you see the sources on Tellini matter you see that:
1. None is expressed for sure most of them say none knows they were never found here an eg  
2. Pearson here  is favoring Albanians, by saying A) Greeks didn't want a cooperation on inquiry of the murder offered by Albanians. b) Delimitation Commission was deliberately favoring Albanians as accused by Greek newspapers (so no need for Albanians to kill him sic.) c) Albanian government ordered the publication of a Red Book containing two documents which proved that the assassination had been organized and perpetrated by the Greeks.
3. The International commission who made the inquiry on Tellini's murder clearly implies Greece's guilt here
4. Greece accepted to pay reparation (legally accepting the guilt)
I don't want to make any further comment on Tellini murder since sources speak for themselves. What I wanted to point out is that: 
I see that Ruches, in the wiki article of Corfu incident and in Chams article of Greek-Italian war if not miscited again is biased as Anti-Albanian author (at least in these two cases, I had to check his other citations while I strongly doubt in his book he is a NPOV author au contrair) two cases because his cited position is - (Tellini murder-albanians did it(?! see above?!), Chams male population-were more organized than nazi germany?!) that's why I don't see him as a reliable source. 
I see again Ruches used as a reference in Northern Epirus Liberation Front article. Again (if not miscited) he is wrong. 
*The Borova massacre happened in 6th July 1943 after Albanian partisans attacked a German column see Owen Pearson p. 258 here the link  or Bernd Fischer p. 190  here the link  (or see here ) while he put it in October 1943?!?!?! 
*Again he is wrong for the winter offensive which was against Albanian partisans see here Fischer p 195  and Pearson p 319  and none mentions MAVI battles or even skirmishes in both those books, while the article with Ruches as a reference mentions many battles. Please take a look at Pearson and Fischer books to see for yourselves this huge discrepancy.
*RUCHES SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A REFERENCE AS A CLEAR BIASED HISTORIAN WITH VERY CONTRADICTORY CLAIMS Aigest (talk) 11:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruches as a reference 

message: "The villages of Polytsani and Malesiovon were in Epirote hands long enough to establish a headquarters and receive a British mission" Ruches
*Which was this British mission (which british officer was in command of this mission?) cause from the British officers with mission in Albania who have wrote their memoirs none mentions that.
*Do you know these villages are distant from each other more than 25 km in direct air line with a lot of other villages between them and Malesiovon region is a Moslem area while its dervishs are famous in South Albania (Dervish Malëshove is a typical expression in South Albania meaning a very clever cunning person an eg is Sejfulla Malëshova). Apart the dubios fact that MAVI forces (who mentions them?!) had their headquarter in a moslem zone, none confirms Ruches claims for such headquarter Aigest (talk) 14:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polytsani and Malesiovon  

message: Wide-spread action was taken by the Northern Epirote resistance in December 1942, when attacks on Italian-Albanian frontier posts and gendarmerie stations increased.
*Wasn't Cham region put under the governance of Albanian collaborationist government, then why Italian-Albanian frontier posts?!
*No Italian reports confirms the attacks from MAVI forces and no other authors confirm that too. Aigest (talk) 14:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian-Albanian frontier posts  

message: Pogradec battle a pure fantasy. Even if accepted the dubious fact of Poliçani village headquarter why going 200 km away through hostile zone into Pogradec (again moslem area)?!?!? to liberate the city why there was the nearby Gjirokastra (not mentioning the fact that actually Italian forces surrendered themselves to Albanian partisans throughout most of Albanian territory). 
More one reads this article more finds in it pure fantasies. Look man that in this article Ruches can be found 100 times wrong 
Aigest (talk) 15:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pogradec battle 

message: *One of British missions was headed by H.W. TILMAN. It is interesting that this mission base camp was in Sheper (Zagoria region).  You can find his memoirs in WHEN MEN AND MOUNTAINS MEET By H.W. TILMAN here the link  and he not only mentions Albanian communist partisan leader Bedri Spahiu (confirming others see above section) but tells stories in details (being first eye witness) the Albanian communist partisans had the control on all that area and their headquarter (for the First Operative Zone) was in Sheper. Again no mention of MAVI of any kind. 
See the map again (Sheper is between Poliçan and Malëshovë) Aigest (talk) 07:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  British missions 

message: None of the "supposed" controlled zones mentioned by Ruches is confirmed by any historian (see above) au contrair they are claimed as Albanian communist partisans controlled zones Aigest (talk) 10:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zones of Control 

message: ===Zones of control===
I see nothing more than a nice cherry picking research. Actually you prove nothing, you know what guerrilla warfare means, MAVI wasn't a political identity or a state, but a resistance group and is clear that it existed and operated. According to Petiffer (who is one of the most 'rs' authors) [], MAVI: 
fought as a separate resistance group against the Axis in 1943. It was destroyed in vicious fighting with the German occupiers and the Albanian nationalist forces of the Balli Kombetar, and it played no part in the final liberation of the country.
So you want to prove that it was a non-existing group controlling nothing in all the wwii period (Suppose Ballists fought something that never existed). If some (you name 2-3, because Pearson mentions MAVIs activities) authors didn't mention MAVI this proves nothing. For example most of the wwii authors did not mention Cham resistance, even the most detailed ones like Meyer, this doesnt mean that it didnt existed.
===Zones of control===
It's more than obvious that during guerrilla mountain warfare regions changed hands several times. Your arguments seem quite weird to claim that entire sectors didn't changed hands all that years, if a area is mentioned as communist sometime in 1943-44, doesn't mean that it was always communist. Petiffer says that MAVI at the final liberation of the country didn't played part, but it was part of the resistance in Albania.
===FNC-MAVI===
Pearson (p. 257) and Ruches made it clear that there was an agreement between the two, after British proposal. However, the agreement was problematic, some part of MAVI joined FNC, some others fled to Greece and joined EDES. Obviously, MAVI ceased to operate as an EDES branch, sometime in 1944.
Moreover, if a British report says 'communist' this doesn't exclude N. Epirote participation, according to British proposals the two organizations had to be one combined force against Axis. This is quite clear if we consider that part of the Greek minority soon, like Polican, were considered 'communist', sometime from 1943 (that's also clear in the article 'most of MAVI's regions came under FNC's control). To sum up not a single author, contradicts Ruches, everything stays in accordance and fits well.
I see several sources that mention the Northern Epirote resistance, like a U.S. mission that landed in Albania that time: [] (suppose it had lot of fantasy too)Alexikoua (talk) 13:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Arguments

message: Pearson (p. 257) and Ruches made it clear that there was an agreement between the two, after British proposal. However, the agreement was problematic, some part of MAVI joined FNC, some others fled to Greece and joined EDES. Obviously, MAVI ceased to operate as an EDES branch, sometime in 1944.
Moreover, if a British report says 'communist' this doesn't exclude N. Epirote participation, according to British proposals the two organizations had to be one combined force against Axis. This is quite clear if we consider that part of the Greek minority soon, like Polican, were considered 'communist', sometime from 1943 (that's also clear in the article 'most of MAVI's regions came under FNC's control). To sum up not a single author, contradicts Ruches, everything stays in accordance and fits well.
I see several sources that mention the Northern Epirote resistance, like a U.S. mission that landed in Albania that time: [] (suppose it had lot of fantasy too)Alexikoua (talk) 13:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: FNC-MAVI

message: The book was brought as a reference for such claims but it has some discrepancies in it:
*First the introduction part describes events before the American nurses crash-landed in Albania in November 8, 1943. That is a part of Introduction of the book not related with their autobiography (how did they witnessed it?!) and has no historic value for as long as the nurses themselves are no historians they are not a RS for events in which they were not first eye witness.
*Secondly and more important (but also related to that copy-pasted section) if you read all the book (from Crash landing chapter p9 to German strike again chapter p133) you can see that although the american nurses lived among South Albanians for many months they don't mention any MAVI or EAOBH or an kind of supposed resistance by them. But they mention Albanian partisans and Balli Kombetar many times (even describing battles among BK and partisans). How about that, they were in "the middle of supposed MAVI fierce battles against germans" and they saw nothing?. Lol that is hilarious.
*Thirdly the copy-pasted section in introduction (not witnessed by nurses) "In October Germans mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and a fierce fighting occurred between them and Balli, Albanian fascist militia(?!October 1943?!) and Nazis" Yeah sure Rambos in the mountains fighting against everything and everyone (such a pity none witnessed them) see above for that paragraph in detail as a pure non-historic propaganda section. Moreover the author of Introduction of that book didn't even took the time to use the "politically correct" version of South Albania instead of Northern Epirus. Yep pure copy-pasted Ruches propaganda section. Aigest (talk) 08:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  American nurses 

message: Do you really believe what you say? The nurses were in southern Albania from November 1943, its quite obvious that there was already an agreement between FNC-MAVI. I'm really fed up with this childish view, considering every non pro-albanian source as propaganda, proving nothing at all.
*Battle of Pogradec- noonne is contradicting Ruches. The diferrences in the approach are quite reasonable if some authors rely on British or Albanian secondary sources. I told there was an agreement between the 2 organizations (Petiffer say about a Hohxa speech considering the Greek minority members allies- see also Thanasis Zikos battalion) 
*Same with Leskovik.
I say it again 'fierce battles between Germans, Balists and MAVI' also happenned according to Petiffer. What r u talking about? Lots of if's, wp:synth, original research, cherry pickings to make conclusions. 
To sum up your conclusions:
*Ruches is Propaganda
*Nurses book introduction is a lie
*Petiffer is lying
*Pearson says nothing about MAVI resistance.[]
Sorry your conclusions are too weird to be considered reasonable.Alexikoua (talk) 09:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Weird research

message: Alex I am sorry to say but the exact words of Pettifer in the link provided by you   are "During the Second World War, the Greek minority supported the anti-Axis resistance, and when the Partisan campaign was started under Communist leadership, a separate battalion of ethnic Greek partisans (the ‘Thanas Ziko’ battalion) was established.11 During the national liberation struggle in the later stages of the war, the Albanian Communists were able to prevent contact between the Greek minority and the right-wing andartes of Napoleon Zervas (EDES) in southern Epirus, who sought to unite northern Epirus with Greece. In 1946, with Hoxha’s regime already in place, Greece attempted to reincorporate northern Epirus into its territory at the Paris Peace Conference, but failed." page 5 second paragraph 2 article The Greek Minority in Albania In the Aftermath of Communism by James Pettifer 2001 
Now WHERE DO YOU SEE MAVI THERE? In the article are mentioned only Greeks fighting under FNC communist leadership in Thanas Ziko battalion and this is confirmed by Albanian communist history (none has denied it), and other historians. 
As you can clearly can see there is no MAVI fighting according to Pettifer. Aigest (talk) 09:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misquoting Pettifer 

message: Alex claim was "Pearson also confirms Ruches in many parts (like in the Epirote-FNC agreement in Konispol and the Epirote representatives meeting in Memorachi)." Alexikoua (talk) 16:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pearson misquotation 

message: Apart the Greek army fighting Italian invasion 1940-41, the only confirmed no propaganda BS stories were those of Thanas Ziko partisan battalion under FNC command. I have the greatest respect for them and I think that they deserve an article here in wiki. I would be honored to write something about them and if you want you are welcome to collaborate on that topic. Aigest (talk) 10:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greeks fighting axis in Albania 

message: From the articles regarding WW2 in Balkan area it looks a clear pattern that ("the supposed nationalist") right-wing movements in Yugoslavia (Mihajlovic cetnics Croat ustashes etc) Albania (Balli Kombetar) Greece (EDES) collaborated with invaders, while left-wing communist forces fought against them (Tito, FNC, ELAS). Aigest (talk) 11:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other thoughts 

message: Who the hell is Nako Stavro there is no person with such a name among FNC leaders. And the general secretary of FNC (there was not a central comitee of FNC) was Omer Nishani. Aigest (talk) 08:38, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nako Stavro? 

message: I would appreciate if you give detailed arguments on the signs you added. The 'controversial' events you already stated (battles etc) are not mentioned. Please give detailed arguments on that.Alexikoua (talk) 09:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Signs

message: *Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism To Communism 1940-1945 by Owen Pearson Edition illustrated, Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 , 9781845111045
Page 237 paragraph one here the link 
February 12, 1943
The "Northern Epirot" resistance leaders began to hold a two-day conference at Theologus Monastery in the mountains. There it was determined that the invaders should be fought with all means, that armed bands should be organized, liaison effected with the resistance organizations in Greece, and funds collected to meet the needs of the struggle. 
AND THAT'S ALL PEARSON MENTIONS
Now where did you get the supposed August 8 meeting and Konispol agreement except at Ruches. Why did you use Pearson as a reference for that, moreover wrongly quoted (no MAVI-FNC agreement and 12February->8August)? Can you please explain that? Aigest (talk) 10:11, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pearson full citation for Theologus Monastery meeting 

message: [] About MAVI:
organisation which fought as a separate resistance group against the Axis in 1943. It was destroyed in vicious fighting with the German occupiers and the Albanian nationalist forces of the Balli Kombetar, and it played no part in the final liberation of the country.
Quite clear the conflicts that Ruches describes. Things are reasonable.Alexikoua (talk) 10:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Misquoting Petiffer again about MAVI

message: A simple example, interestingly one sentence including all tags (but all the article reflects them see my comments above):
Already before Italy's surrender until the communist party prevailed (1943-1944) the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.(9)
Already before Italy's surrender.. 
*factual accuracy->Major offensive in south Albania was mounted by Germans and Balli on January-February 1944 (see sources I mentioned above) while Italians surrendered in 8th September 1943?!
..the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.
*contains weasel words, vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information.->1.Germans and Balli mounted an offensive against Albanian communist partisans (see sources) and no MAVI fierce fighting are mentioned in any historian (except Ruches if it says so see below) 2 Does not contain specific dates names place identifying the supposed "fierce fightings" generally speaking giving impression of supposed MAVI great resistance.
...the Germans together with the Ballists (Balli Kombetar) mounted a major offensive in Northern Epirus and fierce fighting occurred between the MAVI and them.
*Neutrality->Germans and Balli mounted an offensive against Albanian communist partisans (see sources) not against MAVI and the fighting happened between Nazi&Balli vs Albanian communist partisans (see sources above)
Ref 9 in the end
* inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text.-> ref 9 in the end of sentence says Ruches 1965 (no inline)
If you see all the questions I asked you above at Weird research section, could you please answer them? They have a great impact in the article since they are all connected to the tags I put here. Aigest (talk) 10:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags 

message: Ruches position before my intervention in the article  for everyone interested in the article. In the section above you have the sources I mention below
*Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism To Communism 1940-1945 by Owen Pearson Edition illustrated, Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 , 9781845111045
*Albania at war, 1939-1945 by Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999 , 9781850655312
*The Greek Minority in Albania In the Aftermath of Communism by James Pettifer 2001 
*Blutiges Edelweiß: Die 1. Gebirgs-division im zweiten Weltkrieg Hermann Frank Meyer Publisher	Ch. Links Verlag, 2008 , 9783861534471
*Undercover, the men and women of the Special Operations Executive By Patrick Howarth Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 1980 , 9780710005731 
*Special Operations Executive: a new instrument of war by Mark Seaman Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 2006 , 9780415384551
*Lotta armata e resistenza delle forze armate italiane all'estero by Biagio Dradi Maraldi, Romano Pieri Editors Biagio Dradi Maraldi, Romano Pieri Publisher F. Angeli, 1990 , 9788820463243 page 173 (borova case again)
*When men and mountains meet by	H.W. TILMAN Publisher CUP Archive
We began Ruches position with the new entry of ...
===KORÇA REPRISALS CASE=== 
Ruches claim Italians arrested persons connected to MAVI in Korça in March 1943
In March 1943, 160 inhabitants of Korce were sent to concentration camps for suspected underground activities with the Northern Epirote resistance.
Pearson claim Italians arrested indiscriminately Albanians in Korça in March 1943 to use them as hostages after Albanian attacks in Korça region
March 25
A prominent volunteer group of Albanian patriots, supported by a large number of experienced guerrillas, operating in Korçë-Kolonjë area and commanded by Dr. Safet Butka, recently engaged and defeated a whole Italian detachment in the vicinity of Voskopojë, a locality into the mountainous region to the west of Korçë. This same group attacked the enemy headquarters in Voskopoje, where Safet Butka liberated all the political prisoners and he took from the military depots at Ersekë an important quantity of arms and ammunition. ..A new section of this force commanded by Tase Bilushi fought a heavy engagement with an Italian battalion at the village of Gjonomadh, a small provision centre in the Korçë district. The Fascist commander Major Romeo Amedeo, two lieutenants and 21 soldiers as well as a large number of fascist militiamen were killed and the remainder taken prisoners. The guerrillas destroyed all the war material in the storehouses of the village and set fire to the buildings occupied by Italians, but they raided the army grain stores and distributed the crops among the people. They also liberated 12 political detainees from Korça hospital after killing three Italian gendarms Pearson link 
March 30 1943
The Italian army began a blockade of the city of Korçë which lasted for five days and nights. The formal pretext invoked by Tirana regime was that colonel Cripps, a British officer who had served before with Albanian gendarmerie, was hidden in the town, together with 12 other people. The Italian carabinieri did not in fact carry out any searching in the houses that they entered,but just picked up the people they found. The total number of arrest in Korçë amounted to 150, among whom were a great many school-teachers including women; they were confined in the concentration camp called Ostaggio (hostages) built recently in Porta Romana in the vicinity of Durrës. Pearson link 
April 7 1943
A huge demonstration took place in Korçë headed by the Bishop and the women and children of the Albanians arrested during the blockade which began in March 30the. The crowd shouted :"We want back our men and our fathers". When the demonstrators were in front of the Town Hall the fascist militia fired on the crowd in oreder to disperse them. Many women and children were wounded and the demonstration was dissolved. The people who were arrested were hastily put in to military lorries and sent to Porta Romana without being allowed to take any clothes or blanket. They were searched and deprived of all the money they had. The Italians took 145 men and 70 women as hostages. Pearson link 
===POGRADEC BATTLE CASE=== 
Ruches claim MAVI vs Italians (September 1943) 
In September 1943 Italy surrendered to the Allies and her place in Albania was taken by German troops. Epirote groups were able to take the initiative for a short-time period. In Pogradec occurred a fierce battle with the ongoing Italians, but the town was taken after the retreating Italians had burnt a major part of it. (Ruches p.163)
Pearson claim Partisan 1st Brigade vs Italians (September 1943) 
8 September 1943 
The first Brigade, fighting to liberate the town of Pogradec, was called urgently by the LNÇ High Command to go to the region of Tirana. On the way two battalions were taken out to set up an ambush near Librazhd, on the road from Pogradec to Elbasan, in which they killed over 200 German soldiers."  while the area of Pogradec was always under the attack of Albanian partisans during all 1943 period  Not only that but the important cities in the south in that period were controlled by Albanian partisans "The partisans, who were much more active, not only consolidated their hold on much of the southern countryside but also occupied Korça, Gjirokastra, Elbasan and Berat."  along with lesser cities liberated before since july 1943 where you see that "Partisans had already captured the cities of Këlcyrë, Përmet and Leskovik" 
===LESKOVIK BATTLE CASE=== 
Ruches claim MAVI vs Partisans (some months before August-September 1943?)
The British Mission proposed that MAVI and the Albanian communist party, LNC, should collaborate to form a stronger force against the Axis and Albanian collaborationists (Balli Kombetar), and arranged several meetings near Gyrokaster in August-September 1943[4]. However, some months before they fought each other in a fierce battle at Leskoviki and finally their collaborative efforts were only moderately and spasmodically successful.
Pearson and Fischer claim Partisans vs Italians (May 1943)
In May 1943 partisans of Korça district fought what came to be known as the Battle of Leskovik in which the partisans claimed 200 Italians killed and a dozen trucks and armored cars destroyed page 137 Fischer  and page 250 Pearson 
===BOROVA BATTLE AND THE SUBSEQUENT MASSACRE===
Ruches claim MAVI vs Balli Kombetar fight with support of German officers, then Balli Kombetar burned the village (October 1943)
In October a fierce battle was fought between Epirote and Balli Kombetar units together with support of German officers, near the village of Borova (Kolonje District). As a result of the Epirote retreat, 130 people of the village, irrespective age or sex, were lined up and executed and the body of the village priest was hanging for a week. with a ref Pyrrhus J. Ruches. 1965. P. 163 "It was not until October... complete extinction"
Pearson, Fischer, Meyer, Maraldi claim Partisans vs Germans then Germans burned the village (July 6th 1943)
The partisan battalion Tomorri attacked a German motorized column at the Barmash pass on the Korçë-Janina road, in Kolonjë district. The German convoy, which had come from Macedonia and entered Albanian territory on its way to Janina, was taken by surprise in an ambush. The partisans inflicted heavy losses on the Germans, destroying most of the vehicles and military equipment and killing more than 60 men. In reprisal the Germans immediatly sent an armored column down from Korçë, going through both of villages of Borovë and Barmash with flamethrowers. In Borovë the Germans set every house on fire with the inhabitants inside; they then surrounded the village and drove the people back into the flames as they tried to escape. They massacred 107 people -women, old men and childre- and razed the village to the ground. Owen Pearson here  Bernd Fischer here  Hermann Meyer here  Maraldi here  Aigest (talk) 11:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summaring Ruches' stories, fantasies, lies and falsities on MAVI topic 

message: Ruches claim MAVI vs Balli Kombetar fight with support of German officers, then Balli Kombetar burned the village (October 1943)
In October a fierce battle was fought between Epirote and Balli Kombetar units together with support of German officers, near the village of Borova (Kolonje District). As a result of the Epirote retreat, 130 people of the village, irrespective age or sex, were lined up and executed and the body of the village priest was hanging for a week. with a ref Pyrrhus J. Ruches. 1965. P. 163 "It was not until October... complete extinction"
Pearson, Fischer, Meyer, Maraldi claim Partisans vs Germans then Germans burned the village (July 6th 1943)
The partisan battalion Tomorri attacked a German motorized column at the Barmash pass on the Korçë-Janina road, in Kolonjë district. The German convoy, which had come from Macedonia and entered Albanian territory on its way to Janina, was taken by surprise in an ambush. The partisans inflicted heavy losses on the Germans, destroying most of the vehicles and military equipment and killing more than 60 men. In reprisal the Germans immediatly sent an armored column down from Korçë, going through both of villages of Borovë and Barmash with flamethrowers. In Borovë the Germans set every house on fire with the inhabitants inside; they then surrounded the village and drove the people back into the flames as they tried to escape. They massacred 107 people -women, old men and childre- and razed the village to the ground. Owen Pearson here  Bernd Fischer here  Hermann Meyer here  Maraldi here  Aigest (talk) 11:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: BOROVA BATTLE AND THE SUBSEQUENT MASSACRE

message: Ruches claim
The Northern Epirote guerillas were also affected by the Italian surrender. Guerilla battalions under a central command were formed out of the bands that had operated before. This unification was feld throughout the province. Many regions were entirely under Epirote administration and fierce battles took place between ... page 162 Ruches
Pearson, Fischer, Howarth, Seaman, Tilman etc position
1) No records of any kind on MAVI or MAVI headquarter - British mission contacts on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers, and in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)
2) No records of any kind on MAVI forces or units or headquarter on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers and published memories of SOE officers, and in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)
3) No records of any kind on MAVI fightings and their control by headquarter on British mission (SOE) books and published memories of SOE officers, and in historical books regarding Albania (Pearson, Fischer)
My personal observation on Headquarter case 
Morevoer Guerilla battalions under a central command were formed out of the bands that had operated before it looks like MAVI headquarter was formed in September 1943 according to Ruches?! Why Poliçan Dec 1942?!
SUMMARIZE ALL ABOVE DISCREPANCIES, AND YOU GOT A VERY CONTROVERSIAL STORY AND AUTHOR (It is too little to call it controversial giving falsities and propaganda it contains) 
P.S. In this section  there are the still unanswered questions Alex. Aigest (talk) 14:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: MAVI FIGHTING UNITS AND HEADQUARTER CASE

message: It's really a paradox because we have not a single controversy the arguments too weak and complicated, no discrepancies, please stop this nonsense about non-existent events. I will repeat myself:
*Ruches is in accordance with many historians as 'rs' who confirm him: Pearson (author that was a pro-Zogist, that's what the preface says), Petiffer, Costa de Loverdo, southeast Journal of Munich (off course not a bussines one),.
*I'm still waiting what your explanation about Petiffer is: "vicious fighting between MAVI and Balists". Suppose u avoid to accuse him, because he is considered 'clearly pro-Albanian' in general. Or is he beliveving the so-called 'Ruches controversy'?
*Costa de Loverdo: makes detailed description about the activity in southern Albanian and the MAVI role. 
*The German Journal of southeast Europe (a clear historical work, off course not travel guide, that's funny) also makes detailed descriptions about Mavi activities.
*The book on the American nurses mission (it's not an argument to blame someone that believes Ruches) isn't it too much to accuse entire bibilography?
As I said there was an agreement with MAVI and FNC, sometimes both could be considered one force against Axis. Off course the communists finally dealed with an extreme brutal way the Greek minority, especially Himara which lost minority status in 1945. No wonder Albanian primary (communist) sources avoid to mention Mavi.
I will add some other authors (like de Loverdo) on the 1943-44 events, like Nacko Stavro's secred order and some negotiations and conflicts. 
And stop this propaganda capitals, read wiki policy basics. Thank you.Alexikoua (talk) 22:26, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: One-sided controversy

message: Alexikoua, can you source the number of the people that fought under this "Front"? That time overall there must have been 20K Greeks in Albania, so how many fighters could a population of 20K give? --Sulmues Let's talk  22:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many were they to fight the Germans? 

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
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Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

message: In phd of dr. Koltsida page 228, we read that : Sahinis had protest to Italians because they encourage Albanian power against Greek minority. 
If he was in a Resistance group how Sahinis has protest to Italian Occupation Forces?
Istoria1944 (talk) 10:49, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sahinis leader(?) of MAVI

message: We know for sure, all the dead colonels of NAZIs. Who was the killed colonel? In which book except this of 1960, there is the same action?Istoria1944 (talk) 11:31, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: German casuatlies, and colonel of NAZI