Talk:Athens/Archive 1

message: I consider this photo that Adam put up to be very beautiful. I think this should head the Athens article until my request to Optim can be filled out. WhisperToMe 16:09, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Parthenon pic 

message: <Vicious]> Oh
<Vicious]> That of that Omonia Square
<Vicious]> Yea, Adam Carr REALLY wants Omonia Square first
<Head> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Parthenon temple at the Acropolis Athens in 2004.jpg  that's a bitmap, not a jpeg!
<Hadal> Vicious]: then tell him to get a better picture of it. Something that isn't poorly scanned from a newspaper.
<Vicious]> Also, he objected to having the Parthenon first in the Athens article 
<Vicious]> Look at Toronto, Paris, Tokyo, New York, Moscow, Sydney, etc 
<Vicious]> The most recognizeable building is first in all of them 
<Vicious]> So, should I go ahead and move the Parthenon pic up? 
<Hadal> I would say so, at least until he gets an improved Omonia Square image. 
<Vicious]> Ok 
WhisperToMe 19:27, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In Ancient Greek Athens was called Athinai (Αθήναι, plural for Athena),
As for the relevance, it helps us understand the "difference" between "Athina" and "Athinai". I would have asked, "What is Athinai? Is it some weird alternate spelling of Athina?" - Now that I know, I think it should be in there. No, this isn't an article about Greek etymology, but that specific piece of info is needed for people to "get" why Athina and Athinai are different. WhisperToMe 03:50, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for moving Omonia down 

message: Anyway I think that the whole article is puzzling. In the infobox, the authors give details only of the Athinaion Municipality, and not the Athens Capital District (Lekanopedion Athinas) with 54 municipalities and communities, all of which consist the capital of Greece, Athina or Athens. But in the pictures there are even places from Marousi, another municipality of the capital district. Anyway, there is no a single governent for the Capital District but the most near governmental entity is Athens Prefecture (Nomarchia Athinon), nor Athinaion Municipality, nor the Attica prefecture.
I think that it should be explained on the header that Athinai is plural for Athina, but it can be done in a more "compact" way.
:In Ancient Greek Athens was called Athinai (Αθήναι, plural for Athena),
As for the relevance, it helps us understand the "difference" between "Athina" and "Athinai". I would have asked, "What is Athinai? Is it some weird alternate spelling of Athina?" - Now that I know, I think it should be in there. No, this isn't an article about Greek etymology, but that specific piece of info is needed for people to "get" why Athina and Athinai are different. WhisperToMe 03:50, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Athinai" explanation

message: Are there any skyscrapers in Athens? --Dara 13:22, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
No.The area has a pretty high earthquake risk, and the makeup of its terrain makes it hard for large scale construction work( without very high costs).--Jsone 17:38, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a list  from google search results. +MATIA  ☎ 18:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skyscrapers? 

message: If the official population numbers are 3.9 million, that leaves around 7 million people in the rest of Greece. Let us say 1 million in Thessaloniki. Now we have 6 million left. Where are they all living? Certainly not on the islands. Thrace is near empty. Macedonia is underpopulated. Epirus is for lovers of solitude. Peloponnese delights with its vast empty landscapes and Thessalia is a kambos. Finally, Larissa, Edessa, Patra, Heraklion, Volos do not number more than one million between them. Things make sense when you attribute to Athens a great, big, fat taliron: 5 million.Politis 18:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The figures here are grosely inaccurate (as we know Athens really HAS to be atleast 5.5 Million people) but census in Greece simply cant be accurate because Athenians move back to thier home villages to be counted inorder to obtain better funding by the government. 
In short, they are luckily trying new methods to count the population but Athens is certainly a hell of alot bigger than this. (Giorgos 03:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The urban population of 2.6 millions which is refered is not the population of the agglomeration of Athens which includes the greater area of Piraeus. The population of the urban area is 3.130.841. The 3.7-million thing is the population of Attica (metropolitan area), not Athens Sthenel 18:06, 3 January 2007
Yes the population of athens is definetely closer to 5 million. Especially if you add all the immigrants that have moved in recent years, a lot of them illegal and therefore not registered and aren't counted in any census. Alefbetac 14:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population has to be 5 million 

message: What's the city's info? I mean like where is the Palace (if one available), and what's the Athenian army like, etc.
**eeeeeeeeeep! Druworos 15:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''City Info?'' 

message: There  should be an economy section for the article that describes what type of buisness takes place in Athens.
I agree. Athens needs this section, including major economic sectors and important companies
(Energon 16:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economy section 

message: The phrase "The Athens Mass Transit System is currently one of the most modern and efficient systems in Europe" is totaly unjustified. Anyone who lives in Athens could assure you the contrary: athens transport system is inadequate, if not terrible. There are many improvements within the last 5 years, but it's still far from being "one of the most modern and efficient systems in Europe".
I am afraid I have been going every year of my life to Athens for 20 years and the statement you have just made is totally fabricated.  Greece has EASILY one of the most modern transport systems in the world and the Athenians do know it.  The trams, trains and buses are totally adequate and it has NEVER at anystage been inadequate since the Olympics.  If you knew anything the problem has simply been convincing Athenians to leave their cars at home and trust the underground and trams which now they are begining to use in droves.  Not only is the system one of the most efficient and modern in Europe, it is also easily one of the cleanest. If it is hard for you to come to terms with, I am sorry, but Greece does have one of the best transport systems in the world, to say 'terrible' shows you know absolutely nothing. Reaper7 08:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is forbidden but everyone does it =/= it is not forbidden --5telios 12:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  terrible transport system 

message: The article mentions that "In the 19th century, this name was formally re-adopted as the city's name." What was the city called before readoption of the ancient name? --5telios 12:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of the name of Athens 

message: The article mentions that Lykavittos is the tallest hill in Athens. It is not - Tourkovounia is the tallest hill - hence my edit. --5telios 12:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hills 

message: Means no offense, I lived in Athens for 4 years and loved the experience. But this entry, in my opinion, does read like what you would find on the tourism pamphlet--sounding like advertisement, or destination promotion or something. May be we can change the tone of the article a bit.
:Totally agree, even I was born, raised and lived most of my life in Athens. This article needs serious editing. --   Avg    01:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article reads a bit like Greek Tourism Authority's pamphlet 

message: Mayor does not change until the first of January, no? --5telios 22:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mayor 

message: Just removed this link:
titania hotel in the heart of Athens!!! http://www.titania.gr
Remember this is an encyclopedia not a travel guide!
--DimTsi 15:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: Wild guess here - Greece's main industry is Tourism - Athens is the Capital Greece.  Therefore maybe Athens is geared towards tourists and the city in many ways is built for them to a great extent. Just a wild guess. Reaper7 15:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The city per say wasn't built for tourists, but the way it evolved has lead to the tourist city feel somewhat. The Greek Government poured money into fixing the Ancient sites of the city (Acropolis, Temples, Agora) rather than the infrastructure of the city like Mass Transit. Tourism brings in more money than all those infrastructure projects. El Greco 16:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article reads a bit like Greek Tourism Authority's pamphlet 

message: In response to the request for a third opinion I looked at the discussion here and at El Greco's talk page.  The gallery seems to be a reasonable soulution, but I too have experienced problems with maintaining a good gallery.  So frequently these become targets for spam photos etc.  Some people think that all galleries should be at commons, but I don't agree, and there is no firm policy or guidline.  I am also a fan of lots of images within the text, but that can be overdone too.  Perhaps you should experiment with the gallery and remove it if it becomes a problem.  Removing it in anticipation of problems may be a bit drastic.  Cheers! --Kevin Murray 23:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But see, that's the problem! You remove the gallery and the IP user comes and puts it back and doesn't bother to talk about. There are already photos in the article. Here the thing, I want to try to make this page and FA article, but when you look at all FA City articles, they don't have a photo gallery, so I'm trying to remove the gallery, include relevant photos in relevant sections so that the article is up to status with all other FA city articles. Look at New York City, you could have a gallery that enormous, yet there is no gallery and the relevant photos are incorporated into the article. I'm not against having photos, but as you have seen in the talk page, some users think the article reads like a tourist guide, (i.e. more photos). Personally I feel, the article doesn't need the gallery, if the pictures are incorporated in a nice manner into the article. If you look at the article itself and ignore the gallery, there are plenty photos already in it. El Greco(talk) 00:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It seems that you should be more concerned about what conveys the most information in the best manner, not achieving glory with featured article status.  Also it seems that you are taking personal ownership of the article, at least to an extent.  As far as discussing whether there should or should not be a gallery, I don't see a significant consensus either way at the talk page, and you are the only one voicing an objection, with one person proposing it in 12-06 and another reverting your removal of it.  I do have more respect for choices made by registered users, but there is no official policy on that.  It seems that you were bold in removing the gallery, but were reverted.  You should try to develop a consensus for removal while you continue to improve the article in other ways.  --Kevin Murray 00:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  When was the gallery added and by whom?  It seems to have been first proposed in 12-06 by Kshitijbansal   --Kevin Murray 00:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Either it was me, or it was already there and I merely removed a bunch of photos from the body of the article and stuck them into the gallery to ease the reading and organization of the article. It was probably around that time that User Kshitijbansal first proposed it. Would you say keep the gallery the way it is then, or trim it down? El Greco(talk) 01:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  My feeling is that if the gallery represents the recent status quo, then the onus is on those wanting to remove it to demonstrate consensus for the change.  If your preference is to improve the galley, maybe a good idea is to establish a "sandbox" page as an extention of this talk page and get a group together to develop a superior gallery there, and then post the finished product at the article.  I'd be happy to help however I can.  Cheers! --Kevin Murray 04:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Third opinion

message: I can see the problem, but perhaps you could settle for a compromise (not that I have been part of this discussion, or indeed of adding any images, before). Perhaps a photo gallery is acceptable in itself (many other city articles have one), but we could try to influence its content to make it less touristy and more informative? Some general views of the city, its facilities, beauties, uglinesses, typical features beyond the trite (i.e. the odd neighbourhood kafeneio instead of Caryatids, much as I love them) would be an acceptable solution? Let's represent Athens as it really is and should be seen, warts and all, as Cromwell said. athinaios 00:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Three point fifth opinion

message: Thanatos666 20:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''kekrops''' you were right about the circumflex.sorry ,it slipped.but I would have eventually noticed,so please don't get nasty :-) 

message: One thing I casually removed from the infobox, and which has now been restored, was the "nickname" entry. I find it silly. The very idea that cities have nicknames strikes me as slightly bizarre; even in the few cases where they genuinely do, it really hardly ever is central enough for inclusion in an infobox; and as for the phrases listed in this case ("cradle of democracy" and "City of Athena"), whatever they are, "nicknames" they are not. A nickname is something you use routinely in lieu of the real name, in casual speech. Now, when did any of you hear for the last time: "Hey Niko, what'cha gonna do this weekend?" - "well, guess we'll just go to the cradle of democracy, for bouzoukia and ouzo". Sounds slightly odd? That's because these expressions are descriptive phrases and/or conventional epithets, but not names, let alone nicknames. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, what about the City of Lights, the City of Brotherly Love, or the Big Apple? Do you not know which cities those are describing? Granted the Cradle (Birthplace) of Democracy is not as common as the City of Athena, but it's still a nickname. Athens is the City of Athena. Athens got its name from the Goddess Athena. Look at how Athens is pronounced in Greek - Athena. El Greco 22:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read more closely. I didn't deny those phrases exist, and I didn't deny they are conventionally associated with Athens. I doubt that "nickname" fits what they are. "Philly" for "Philadelphia", that's a nickname. "City of Brotherly Love", well, it's an epithet - much more conventionally fixed than either of the two you give for Athens. Can you actually cite a few examples where these phrases for Athens are used, as names? I googled for "City of Athena", and the first few pages didn't show a single example. Lots of pages talking of entirely different places, lots of instances where somebody is just using "city of Athena" as an etymological explanation of what the name "Athens" supposedly means; some few instances where it's used as an epithet, in apposition to the real name. No nickname. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, in fact the only nickname I have heard used for Athens is "tsimendoupoli" which means cement-city. And this is by no means well established and used like "the big apple" with regard to NY. There simply isn't a well established nickname for the city. Alefbetac 14:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "nickname" in infobox 

message: Domitius in editing wrote 
who has been trolling this article? please see the "origin of name" for prior versions and do not dismiss the mainstream transliteration scheme of modern Greek (used also by Britannica) as "Greeklish"
trolling? ok Domitie,if you say so,trolling,...
so for the  ,edited-written by neohellenes, part of the english wikipedia,
correcting errors and adding concrete data and information to the encyclopaedia is obviously wrong. dystychos anamenomenon.
I won't bother anymore with you guys.
Simply ανεπίδεκτοι μαθήσεως . 
Νεοέλληνες με γειά σας ,τα καινούργια σας τα στέκια ,χάρισμά σας!
Thanatos666 22:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "trolling" 

message: What about this new infobox? Only the municipality's and metro area and population are included which means that we mention only the center of Athens and after that whole Attica. Where is the urban area and population of Athens which is the most important part and show the real size of the city? - Sthenel 17:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As nobody cares about this, the "metropolitan population" now in the infobox represents the population of Attica while the "metropolitan area" is the Athens urban area, two different things in the same category, because of this ambiguous section of the box - Sthenel 13:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New infobox 

message: I think that the way I have edited this page, by removing many pictures from this unnecessarily long, ugly picture gallery and placing in the article itself makes it look much better. The way it was previously put was aesthetically poor. This is more or less how the articles of the rest of the major European cities resemble!
:Why don't you sign your posts next time? You delete relavant pictures in the article for what? To spam the article with all the pictures from the gallery? If you don't have anything to contribute from text, stop contributing pictures, cause that is the last thing this article needs, is more pictures! El Greco 14:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say we remove the gallery and also 50% of the pics on page. Greek articles are really bugging me at the moment because they look trashy. Athens is one of the worst Euro city articles on wikipedia. This is mainly because of all the photos...though its other things as well. Like El Greco said, the last thing we need is more pictures.
We need to get it straight and pick a handful of the best pictures that represent Athens and use them. I also don't like the infobox picture of the parthenon...but thats a different story. --Giorgos 13:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which ones do you think need removing? Certain ones, like the Athens Metro and the airport, and the government ones are very useful and relevant to the section at hand, the others with the exception of a few are there for show. El Greco (talk · contribs) 01:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Edit 

message: An IP editor added Tokyo and Athens to each other's lists of sister cities. Tokyo's official web site does not list Athens as a sister. If a reliable source establishes that Tokyo (not one of the municipalities within it) has a sister-city relation with Tokyo, the information, together with the reliable source, will be valuable additions to the articles. Fg2 11:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tokyo and Athens 

message: If Thens is the largest city in the balkans - so it should be stated. Secondly why is Olympiakos listed as a football club of Athens when it is belonging to the city of Piraeus like Ionikos and Ethnikos which are not listed either. Reaper7 18:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I kind of concur with the second point, Olympiacos is mentioned both in Athens and Piraeus, a choice has to be made right?--   Avg    20:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest city in the balkans and Olympiakos? 

message: Omonia, Psirri and Gazi(why is this the second item?), Syntagma, Plaka, Monastiraki and Thissio, Kolonaki are mentioned which is fine although that is a list of the tourist centers of Athens. Where are Kypseli, patissia, victoria, exarcheia, sepolia and ampelokipi? To avoid this reading like a tourist pamphlet these are should be mentioned. Alefbetac 15:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Central Athens 

message: I got nothing against Athens, but how is it that Sparta owns them and Sparta gets destroyed?
*Wikipedia is not a place for questions, consult a forum.--NightRider63 23:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  how did 

message: It's getting a bit tiring to see User 62.38.216.95 constantly revert the article to the way he likes it, without giving any indication of why his version should be better, or any chance of discussing his changes, only to have them undone by people like El Greco. Might it be time, 62.38.216.95, that you register to wikipedia and start telling us on this page why these changes might be desirable? athinaios 08:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Athinaios. El Greco(talk) 15:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's still happening. Can the IP user perhaps enter a discussion on this topic? If no agreement is found, this page is going to go back and forth relentlessly and indefinitely, by the looks of it. Surely, there must be better things to do on wikipedia, and surely, Athens deserves better than this? Once again, how do other editors feel about the amount and distribition of images? athinaios 22:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now the user is: 87.202.13.198 El Greco(talk) 15:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear 62.38.216.95, it's nice to see that you try at least to give an explanation for your latest revert ("undid unnecessary revision" etc). But if you compare the article before and after your renewed interference, you will see that you have not only brought the images back to the way you like them (I assume that's your main concern?) but also undone several useful changes to the actual text, including corrections of grammar or spelling, slight differences of content, improvements of formatting, and internal links. If you're so concerned about the images, can you not at least change them one by one without spoiling the work of others? athinaios 09:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: So you "have practically made this page"? That's very nice, but would be easier to believe if you had a username. And you "will not (...) touch the text as long as" others "leave the pictures alone"? Well, everytime you revert, you do touch the text. Do you actually look at anything but the images? Wikipedia is not a picturebook, it's an encyclopaedia. And not one that you own (nor me). athinaios 15:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Posted notice to WP:AN3 El Greco(talk) 20:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  User IP 62.38.216.95 

message: Greek photography, if you check previous discussion on this page, you'll find that the inclusion of large amount of photos has been cause for controversy in the past. Whatever one's opinion on the topic, the edits you just made have the unpleasant effect of breaking up the text of the "Athenian neighbourhoods" section, making it look ugly and disorganised. You should ponder putting your images in the gallery near the end of the article, or alernating them between position on the left and the right. athinaios 18:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek photography 

message: Just a quick question , for all editors who know Athens. I live about 10 minutes from Omonia, and I have a feeling that "vibrant and multicultural" is a bit of a euphemism, not to say misleading. After all, this page is not a tourist brochure. Any thoughts? athinaios 17:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I know about Omonia is that it's filled with weird people and foreigners hang out there. I mean it's a tourist hotspot (ie. multicultural) and there is always something going on (traffic, people, tourism, etc.). I don't know how else to rewrite it, "Omonia is a busy and tourist filled part of Athens"? El Greco(talk) 21:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: El Greco, it's not a tourist hotspot. It's the only of the main squares that all recent urban reorganisations have failed to relieve of massive traffic. In fact, it does not operate so much as an urban square (or, in fact, circle), but rather as a traffic island. It's, admittedly, full of non-nationals, but very few of them are tourists. It's actually a place that most tourists are warned of. It's a place where temporary labourers hang around in case they find someone to employ them; where anything illegal is available, and where shops and kiosks specialised in, well, very special things or publications, tend to accrue. Don't take me wrong, I am not a xenophobe and I, personally, enjoy Omonia (most Greeks and foreigners most certainly don't), but "vibrant and multicultural" makes it sound like something it isn't. Maybe "lively" would do? athinaios 23:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well tourist hot spot or not, many tourists still go through Omonia on there way to the Archeological Museum or Monastiraki or Syntagma, and it is the intersection of two Metro lines. Personally, I liked Omonia when it was still a circle, instead of this traffic divider. So, "Omonia is a busy and lively part of Athens"? You know what I spent 5 minutes looking at the Omonia section saying to myself, 'Where's this vibrant stuff?', and then I glance over to the image and see it there. Here I thought it was in the Omonia section and not an image caption. I'll remove it, something like that should be in the body of the article, not the caption of an image. El Greco(talk) 01:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's much better now. Sorry if I sounded terribly negative yesterday. I must have been in a bad mood. "Vibrant" is hard to define anyway. I personally find my very own Plateia Exarchion vibrant, but know that many Athenians think it's a dump... But in any case, I think we agree that the pictures here must be treated carefully, to prevent any tourist-brochure impression or tone. athinaios 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omonia 

message: First, I'll Setup archiving on talk if nobody objects.
Second,  has some photos that are licensed under creative commons.
Sincerely, Compwhiz II 23:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Archiving sounds fine, but please no more photos. The article's got enough, and most of them if I'm not mistaken are PD and avaliable on Wikicommons. El Greco(talk) 23:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops! Forgot about this, will get right on it!  Compwhiz II(Talk)(Contribs)  04:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Archiving should start in the next couple of days.  Compwhiz II(Talk)(Contribs)  14:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving talk and some pictures 

message: There is an inconsistency in the article concerning the population of the Athens metropolitan area. In the text it says: "Urban area" of Athens - pop. 3.37 million (2005), area 412 km². In the box, I read: "Metropolitan area" of Athens - pop. 3,761,810, area 411.717 km². Together with the number for the "larger urban zone" (3.89 million), this is very confusing and needs to be checked. Moreover I have the feeling (I may be wrong) that the population of 3.8 million refers to a much larger area, rather 4000 km² than 400 km².134.60.4.181 (talk) 15:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the intro now, does that make more sense? El Greco(talk) 16:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: As the guy above correctly said, the 48.7C is FALSE.
I have personally been in touch with the men in charge of the Hellenia Institute of Meteorology, they checked carefully the Tatoi highest that day and it was 48C NOT 48.7C.
I got the official confirmation, so the link to this website points to a website with fake data. I corrected it,please don t change and disinform people furtherly.
Maximiliano Herrera -climatologue
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.13.79.130 (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? El Greco(talk) 21:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Link or some sort of hard reference? Where are you getting what you're stating. I don't care if you heard it from the Hellenic Institute of Meteorology, I want a source/link something that backs up what you say. A telephone number doesn't prove anything. If what you say is true then it must be posted somewhere on their website, or some source to back it up. El Greco(talk) 21:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Highest temperature. 

message: What is with the claim that the tap water in Athens is better than mostly everything in the US and Europe?  There is no source for this information, and it isn't clear if this "fact" refers to subjective characteristics like taste or something more objective like pollutant levels.  Would anyone complain if I deleted this for now?  It has remained unreferenced for a while now. Dwr12 (talk) 20:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead. Besides, people from the Greek countryside seem to think Athenian tap water is shit compared to theirs and full of chlorine. So I'll go out on a limb here and say it's prolly not all that good after all :P Druworos (talk) 22:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  excellent tap water 

message: Athens is dominated by concrete modernist appartment blocks - all virtually identicle - called polikatikies (plural for polykatikia, aka multi-appartment building in Greek.) They are everywhere and are the undenyable image of the city and should be atleast mentioned (the Greek word)as that is what most of Athens consists of. Besides this it is also obvious that more then 4 million people live there.
::Agree Reaper7 (talk) 19:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''polikatikies''' 

message: Quote from Britannica: Athens aricle Modern Greek  Athínai,  Ancient Greek  Athenai,   historic city and capital of Greece. Many of classical civilization's intellectual and artistic ideas originated there, and the city is generally considered to be the birthplace of Western civilization.
I guess Britannica is also doing a disservice. Dr.K. (talk) 17:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But by the way it is worded, no. "The word encyclopedia comes from the Classical Greek "ἐγκύκλιος παιδεία" (pronounced "enkyklios paideia"), literally, a "[well-]rounded education," meaning "general knowledge." You will also note that it does NOT state a fact, but makes it clear using the words "... generally consider ..." An encyclopedia is merely a starting point for a well-researched article, and Wikipedia surpassed the Britannica long ago in that regard. The article makes it clear that Athens if the Cradle of its own civilization as well, Classical Civilization, the other name of Greco-Roman Civilization. Perhaps that gets confused with Western Civilization, as the Greeks may have called themselevs Western in contrast to their Eastern enemies? Maybe we should stop using "Western" if it confuses two entirely different cultures? Jcchat66 (talk) 20:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely that Britannica does not do any disservice. In fact it verifies the claim that Athens is the cradle of Western civilisation. I was just referring to my answer above (diff) and this is why I put disservice in quotations. I was answering your specific comments: but you do a disservice using words like cradle, which means origin or beginning. Clearly, Athens is not the origin of Western Civilization. I made an invalid claim (I guess Britannica is also doing a disservice) as a means to demonstrate how illogical the "disservice" claim is, by using the reductio ad absurdum method. I don't think there is (or has ever been) any confusion about the status of Athens and since now we have WP:RS citations about the claim this discussion should be over. Dr.K. (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If this had been used as a citation to begin with then there would not have been discussion. What really irks me is that "Western civilization" is not defined ... Western from the Greek perspective of being West of Persia, or some other mysterious context? Hopefully now the article will be improved? I desist. Jcchat66 (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the Britannica citation was needed. As far as the definition of Western civilisation I think the reason nobody bothered to define it is that Athens is in Europe. Europe has historically been the West. The West then expanded to North (and South) America and there you have it. I am sure what Britannica means by West is not the relative location of Athens with respect to its neighbours or other relativistic geography but rather the simple fact that the Western world is generally considered to have originated within the European boudaries. Dr.K. (talk) 18:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Western Civilization got its name from being in Western Europe, from the legacy of the total collapse of the Roman Empire, which Eastern Europe did not experience, and continued on with Byzantium and Russia. That is a recognized historical definition, so I disagree. It is NOT a substitute for all of Europe. Where have you ever heard of Russia or Byzantium being part of Western culture? So I recognize the confusion, but in the academic world of historical research, this confusion does not exist. When we speak of civilization, we are speaking of cultural identities, history, world views, etc. Not merely architectural achievements or philosphy, for neither is enough to establish a culture. Culture, the long accumilation of experiences unique to a people, establishes architecture and philosophy, not the other way around. We only know of Athens and its ancient philosophers through Christian monks that preserved their work, and they only preserved it because they could use it to promote Christianity. Does that make Aristotle or Plato Christian? No, it does not. Likewise, merely being in Europe does not make Athens Western. It is arrogance to give so much credit to one city for all that other cultures have achieved without any help from Athens. Far better to have simple stated the facts, for no matter how many citations you might find to support "Athens is the Cradle of Western Civilization," it is still an opinion, not a fact. It is not even the cradle of Classical Civilization for which it belonged, for it was never mentioned by Homer. If you look of "Cradle of Civilization" in wikipedia, you get a discussion of the or oigins of ALL civilizations, and no one city is ever given credit. Such a notion is simply ubsurd. Jcchat66 (talk) 02:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't know that being mentioned by Homer, a fictitious person afterall, was a criterion for being considered the cradle of anything. Anyway aside from Homer and the various definitions of "Western civilisation" and or "cradle" thereof, and not to make such a fine point of all this, let's just agree to disagree. Since this point is a widely accepted designation for Athens and it has been properly cited I think that this matter should end here. Wikipedia's criterion is verifiability not truth according to WP:V. This criterion has been satisfied and that should be recognised even by the most extreme of skeptics. Dr.K. (talk) 02:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

text: It might be helpful to have a look at Western world. You probably choose the narrower modern definition.--   Avg    02:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Avg. These definitions are really mercurial stuff. I guess they are like clothes. You pick the one that suits you best. "However the contribution of Athens to all these possible definitions of Western World has been both undeniable and substantial." Dr.K. (talk) 04:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "However the contribution of Athens to all these possible definitions of Western World has been both undeniable and substantial." That has never been denied, as three fully new civilizations emerged from Classical, Western, Eastern, and Islamic (yes, even the Muslims owe much to the Greeks and Romans). The problem is the definition of the term Western Civilization. So far, I've only heard of two, one for Western Europe, the other for all of Europe. Most of you content that the later is the most dominate, as it appears to used in a general sense. It is also well established that Western Europe is culturally separate from Eastern Europe, and in this regard the term is well known. So what would you have us do? Use Western European Civilization to distinguish that people from Classical Civilization? Do you also wish to contend that Athens exceeded all other Greeks in their contributions? No one has denied my scathing remarks on the absurdity of giving so much credit to one city, rather than to the whole of Classical Civilization. By this, you insult so many others that have contributed. What about all the other contenders for being the Cradle of Western Civilization? Mesopotamia, the Minoans, the Egyptians, Ireland, Rome, Greece (instead of just Athens), and even the Hindus! They all use the general definition of "Western Civilization." So why is Athens claims any better than the rest?
Here's and interesting quote, one of many: "The concept of “The West,” Hitchens argued, is one shaped more by philosophy than by geography: Athens, widely considered to be the cradle of Western civilization, is physically closer to Cairo than it is to London, yet it is the latter which has been an heir to the Greeks’ cultural and philosophical achievements." http://www.campusreportonline.net/main/articles.php?id=131
Irish contender: http://earlywesterncivilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/is-west-extension-of-old-roman-empire_08.html
And on and on this can go. Who was the first person to write such a claim, exactly? I know we've met the standards of Wikipedia, but that does not mean it cannot be exceeded. The claims has no merit, period. Jcchat66 (talk) 06:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britannica's "disservice" 

message: does anybody know what is the format to put as an audio .ogg file the native term of Places/Subjects in articles? CuteHappyBrute (talk) 00:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media 

message: I think I know the answer, but I really have to ask:  Why was the centuries of Ottoman rule, and all that has happened in that period was so diligently avoided in this article?  It does not even get a single sentence.  Where are their mosques, schools, buildings and heritage and legacy?  How can the history section of such an ancient city be so short and dry?--Murat (talk) 00:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ottoman Past 

message: Please discuss your edits before hand. You are reverting to an older version of the page and that is undoing good edits. May I also remind you to read WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not a dispository of images, that is what Wikimedia Commons is for. El Greco(talk) 21:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  User:85.74.146.154 

message: Hi all, I think this entry urgently needs a city infobox to comply with common wikipedia standards for city entries!
As for Skyscrapers, there is the "Athens Tower" and the "Pireaus tower", the former of which was the tallest building in the Balkans at the time of completion (1971). The latter is said to be on hold due to structural stability problems. All in all though, these two buildings hardly constitute skyscrapers worth mention by any global standards. --alx_bio 11:41, 23 August 2005 
In any case, despite whatever beautiful sights the city offers at street level or the nice views of the mountains surrounding the city (making up what is known as the "Attika plain"), the lack of a world-class highrise skyline even on location away from the historic center is nowadays notable and does not add to the city's image and future aspirations as a regional metropolital and financial center, in contrast to other neighbouring cities in the region like Istanbul or Belgrade.    
(UTC)
The lack of skyscrypers is due to post-military dictatorship belief that no building should be taller than the acropolis which stands 150m from the sea level.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.129.151.225 (talk) 11:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox! 

message: I have already done two reverts with a single purpose account regarding the removal of maps and replacement of these maps with street pictures. This user has started to edit war. As my limit of WP:3RR is approaching I will not do any reverts. This user seems to have a beef with El Greco and in his edit summary he mentions that El Greco is the only user who does not like his pictures. I disagree. The pictures this user is edit-warring about should not replace the maps at the sections concerning the geography of Athens. Geography means maps not street pictures. Dr.K. (talk) 19:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And to further expand Tasos' edit. Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files, so just because they (pictures) exist, doesn't mean they should be included. Furthermore, Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, or textbook and as such, including every possible images of the city within the article makes the article act more as a tourist guide and less encyclopedic, which is what Wikipedia aims for. I understand that Athens is a nice a beautiful place, but you can't show the extent of the political and geographical influence of the city if all you include is pictures of Kiffisias Ave., which only a small part of the road that is actually located within the city. El Greco(talk) 21:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You threw the book at this guy. Awesome. Tasos (Dr.K. (talk) 00:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of maps and replacement by street pictures 

message: Will the IP user who continually is changing the metro population of the city of Athens, please stop. The metro population of Athens IS NOT 3.8 million, which is the exact same population as Attica. Furthermore cities like Lavrio, Rafina, Vravrona, etc. are to far away to be considered part of the Athens conglomeration. The Metro population of Athens is more clearly like 3.2 million. And we are not going by the LUZ. El Greco(talk) 20:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metro population 

message: In April, I took this photograph in Athens. It shows a building with a prominent Norwegian flag in front of it, accompanied on the left by flags of Greece, the European Union, Azerbaijan, Luxembourg (I think), and one other country, maybe Portugal. Does someone maybe know what building it is? I do not think it is the Norwegian embassy because of the other flags and the coat of arms on the wall that doesn't look like the Norwegian one at all... Greetings, Belgian man (talk) 19:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question for connoisseurs 

message: I believe there is a mistake regarding the extreme temperature ever recorded in Athens metropolitan area.The highest temperature ever recorded is 48C in Tatoi and Eleusina according to the national weather service and it was recorded in  July 1987 and July 1977.There is a link of the national weather service.Most people believe that the record was the temperature we had last week.IT IS A MISTAKE PLEASE CORRECT IT.
: (Please sign and date your comments so that phrases like "last week" make sense.IT WAS A MISTAKE IT HAS BEEN CORRECTED.)
: However, the citations  given for the record temperatures do not support the records claimed in the article.  All they say is that, at some point between 1955 and 1997, Elefsina hit 48°C and, at some point between 1955 and 1997, Nea Filadelfia hit –5.8°C.  They do not state that these are record temperatures; other places may have been hotter or colder over the same time period, these or other places could have been hotter or colder before 1955 or since 1997.  The article also contradicts itself by saying that the Technical University campus and Mount Penteli have been colder than the record low temperature. Dricherby (talk) 13:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistake on the extreme Athenian temperatures. 

message: There seems to be a minor war going on here over population figures. The best way out is right here on the talk page: what figures should be used for city, metro and urban population?
What can we agree is the authoritative source, and what happens when figures change over time? For instance, the infobox currently say "Population statistics (as of 2001)". Those are figures from the national census so they're authoritative, but the numbers are also seven years out-of-date, which is not good for an online encyclopedia.
The question then is: what updated figures are acceptable? Those provided by the central government, even if they're estimates? Provided by the regional government? The city government? Other groups that provide the most-recent figure (which could be an estimate)? Which is more important, authority, accuracy or recentness?
Establishing a consensus on this would help to prevent constant changing of infobox figures. I'll also note that the people who change infoboxes often don't take the time to also update the same figures in the article body itself. Franamax (talk) 14:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population figures / infobox 

message: The urban area of Athens officially consists of the prefectures of Athens and mainland Piraeus (land 412 and population 3,130,841). Since the municipalities of Acharnes, Voula etc belong to the rest of Attica, they are not part of the urban but the metropolitan area. If we don't use this way to make the disaggregation, then every user can add Acharnes, Voula, Paiania, even Elefsina in the urban area. Besides the road maps of Athens include only the municipalities of Athens and Piraeus prefectures. See also the official website of Vrilissia municipality. - Sthenel (talk) 17:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the urban area of Athens being defined as by either you or the IP user, because the metro area has been defined and so any urban area must be smaller in both population and area? Some recalculation might be necessary so before any editing occurs on the article page this has to be dealt with here on the talk page. As far as I recall, the 412 km2 included the Athens prefecture and mainland Piraeus prefecture. So would the IP user like to discuss where the 747.8 km2 came from? El Greco(talk) 22:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Okay so, 412/3.1 million for urban area, and maybe 3,808/3.7 million for metro area? I really don't like that the Metro pop and area are the whole population and area of the periphery of Attica. Plus, how do you justify that Kythira is in the metro area of Athens? El Greco(talk) 00:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Sounds Good. I'll go ahead and put it in the infobox. El Greco(talk) 18:05, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Athens urban area 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Athens's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "population":
From France:  
From Tokyo: 
From Pakistan: Feeney and Alam, 2003
From Bratislava: 
From Romania: 
From Scotland: 
From Vienna: 
From Kiev: The most recent Ukrainian census, conducted on December 5, 2001, gave the population of Kiev as 2611.3 thousand (Ukrcensus.gov.ua - Kyiv city URL accessed on August 4, 2007). Estimates based on the amount of bakery products sold in the city (thus including temporary visitors and commuters) suggest a minimum of 3.5 million. "There are up to 1.5 mln of undercounted residents in Kiev", Korrespondent.net, June 15, 2005. 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: None of those links are used in the article. Unless I'm not following what you're asking. El Greco(talk) 18:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Athens]] 

message: I don't understand it. How could someone possibly make an article on one of the longest lasting cities in history, and include a one paragraph historical section of it, with a few references to some famous philosophers? The rest of the article has at least three subheadings under just about every heading- but history has almost nothing? I'm just shocked.
 75.69.54.192 (talk) 23:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Athens 

message: Wikipedia is not an image repository. Therefore the continual inclusion of more photos is not allowed. If you want to add photos add them to the relevant Wikimedia Commons page which is an image repository. El Greco(talk) 21:51, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a tourist guide either. Add relevant pictures to relevant sections. El Greco(talk) 15:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Again please take note this is not a tourist guide nor an image repository. El Greco(talk) 23:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: A street map would be a great addition.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.237.252.227 (talk) 12:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Street Map? 

message: i posted an external link to a street-maps/ points of interest site for athens, but it got removed.. i dont understand which rule i violated...
maybe they thought i was spamming because i did the same thing for thessaloniki, patras and heraklion.. any ideas?
Fotismerakos (talk) 14:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Was this a photo gallery? If it was it was removed because links to photo galleries are not allowed under WP:EL. El Greco(talk) 21:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  street maps not allowed?