Talk:Richard Pearse

message: When Pearse was writing letters to newspapers he was using a very strict definition of flight - sustained, controlled flight. Pearse did not achieve this to his own demanding standards.
Hence Pearse historians often use the words "powered take-offs" or "tentative flights" instead.   
I think that Pearse's letters were an expression of his own dissatisfaction at having gotten close and knowing what might get him further but, frustratingly, not having the resources to do so.
Dramatic 11:50 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Agreed.   He certainly used a motor attached to something like a plane to get off the ground and travel through the air.    Ping 07:43 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
While not the greatest fan of 'Richard Pearse made the first flight' claims, I have removed the not verified tag as only one citation needed event was noted, and I have supplied references for this.Winstonwolfe 04:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: The actual name of the book you were probably reading is, "The Guinness Book of Records" not, world records, our Americans plagiarism !   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.68.74.173 (talk) 20:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: "Sustained controlled flight" is not a demanding standard invented by Pearse. It is the measure by which inventors had been judging their efforts for almost 50 years. There were many craft that achieved some form of flight, from the 1870's onwards. Pearse did not achieve sustained flight until well after the Wright brothers, if at all.125.236.202.112 (talk) 04:26, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Reverted a major error - which had sat unfixed for 6 months! Snori 11:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not born in Cornwell

message: I do not see ailerons on the picture, were they spoilerons?70.118.142.235 (talk) 05:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Where are the ailerons?

message: an eyewitness is not circumstantial evidence, it's direct evidence.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Romaniantruths (talk • contribs) 15:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Not Circumstantial

message: 1) "Mr Richard Pearse, son of Mr Diggory Pearse, the well-known farmer, of Waitohi, expects to make the trial flight of his monoplane in a very few days now. He has been working on the airship for a long time, and is confident that he has got over many difficulties. The frame is of bamboo, the wings of strong calico, and the motor is of 24 horse-power. The trial flight will be made from a paddock which is in young wheat, but the direction is not as yet been determined upon."
Source, Timaru Herald, Volume XIIC, Issue 14046, 2 November 1909, Page 5, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THD19091102.2.19&srpos=9&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight--
: Pearse himself wrote articles of practical work in 1904 and eyewitnesses observed flights in 1902-03.  The articles quoted in this section of 'talk' are indirect third party evidence.  They are journalists in a faraway town writing about something they heard about on the rumour mill.--Karloss12 (talk) 17:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Pearse was being granted patents and getting locals (i.e. eyewitnesses) to help him with flights.  This is not secrecy.  The journalist is writing as an uninformed third party.--Karloss12 (talk) 17:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

text: Pearse states that he started "practical work" in early 2004.  Witnesses (i.e. direct evidence) were discussing physical flying equipment as early as 1898, therefore Pearse "started working on flight" many years before 2004.  The comment is a mixture of fiction and emotion.--Karloss12 (talk) 17:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: As of Nov. 2, 1909, Richard Pearse had not performed any flight

message: Hello.  I am finding myself repeatedly archiving links on this page.  This usually happens when the archive doesn't recognize the archive to be good.
This could be because the link is either a redirect, or I am unknowingly archiving a dead link.  Please check the following links to see if it's redirecting, or in anyway bad, and fix them, if possible.
* http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6799761/Pearse-flew-long-after-Wrights
* http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/perspective/6901206/NZ-aviation-pioneer-was-the-real-deal
* http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/misc/misc-20081225-1406-Richard_Pearse_-_Crosswinds-048.mp3
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thread_title:  Trouble archiving links on the article 

message: All inventors are motivated by different reasons. The Wrights might well have been considering "industrial development" (whatever that means). But Pearse had his reasons too. I don't think that there is any basis for suggesting that his own lack of interest in industry has "suppressed any recognition of Pearse's achievements". I would suggest that there has been no suppression of recognition, and furthermore that he is now over publicized in New Zealand, usually with false claims as to his "achievements". Speculative and emotive sentences like that last one in the intro should be removed.125.236.202.112 (talk) 04:21, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motivation for invention 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Reliable Source: The Riddle of Richard Pearse by Gordon Ogilvie. 4th Edition (revised)
Published by New Zealand's largest book publisher: Reed Publishing (NZ) Ltd
The most relevant content on the back cover:
* Though the Wrights were clearly the first to achieve sustained and controlled powered flight, the question of whether or not Pearse beat them into the air remains an open issue. He was certainly the first citizen in the British Empire to accomplish a powered takeoff in his own aircraft, probably as early as 31 March 1903.
The end of the Prologue provides the following:
* Pearse's earliest aeronautical experiments almost certainly pre-date the Wright brothers' first flights at the Kill Devil Hills and may have been the most successful powered flight attempts made anywhere in the world up to that time. He was certainly the first person in the British Empire to make a powered takeoff in a heavier-than-air machine. And that is not to mention the farsighted features of his first aircraft's design; nor the ingenuity of his last plane, a convertible aeroplane-helicopter; nor his other assorted inventions. 
:It was not until five years after Richard William Pearse's death (he died in 1951) that the investigation of his achievement got underway. This operation and the startling revelations which have resulted are the substance of what follows.
Page 52, Chapter 7, Aloft:  There is a single "Take off attempt" in which the plane is airborne for between 45-400 metres, which is corroborated by many witnesses.  This is the March 31st 1903 flight.  Ogilvie doesn't use the word "flight" for this event.  Not even in the dictionary sense of the word.
Page 70, Chapter 9, Further Trials: There are many single witness accounts of 'flights', and many witnesses describe the flying machine sitting on top of a hedge for some time after the great snow of mid 1903 (The only snow storm between 1902-1905).  However no accounts of how the flying machine got up there.
In the book, Ogilvie refers to a dozen or so of Pearses experiments as Flights.  He also elaborates on what sub-term may be given to many flights (Powered Flight, Powered Glide etc).  Many of them can be reliably dated to be in 1902 or 1903, however they all only have a single witness account or can not be match with other accounts, and therefore are deemed by the book to be uncorroborated.
A dozen or so datable uncorroborated witness accounts with accurate descriptions of the flying machine make it almost certain that Pearse was achieving flights with his aviation experiments in 1903, however the nature of the flight cannot be reliably determined.  Pearse himself and historians say that Pearse never achieved Sustained Controlled flight.
I like that Ogilvie doesn't use harsh statements such as "a witness claimed" to describe witness interviews.  He takes an interview at face value and tries to corroborate it with other sources.
The book describes how in 1956, George Bolt was the first to take up the task of Researching Richard Pearse.  Three years after Pearse's death and five decades after the flights.
--Karloss12 (talk) 19:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secondary Sources 

message: I am going to develop some article content for the 31 March 1903 flight.  It is currently very brief with only two lines in the article.--Karloss12 (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corroborated Flights/Hops 

message: Re: "Ever since the first aviation experiments, the use of the term 'flight' has often been contentious because it has no universally agreed definition" etc.
Failure is how scientific research advances. Failure is easy to achieve. If progress in pursuit of a great objective is measured in increments, then each small advance is worthy. "Aerial navigation", say to fly at will about the sky like a bird, in a self-propelled heavier-than-air flying machine, was without doubt the problem of the age and project objective of pioneering "aeroplane men". As Pearse pointed out, no one achieved navigated flight with their first aeroplane, but attaining Hargave's "some sort of flight" at that time would have been a noticeable and encouraging first step on the road to it.
If the 1904 St Louis World's Fair aeronautical contest set an acceptable standard for, or a definition of, "aerial navigation" or "flight" in aeroplanes, then perhaps, and as the grand prize passed unclaimed in 1904, no one had "flown", there or elsewhere. Regarding that 1904 event, Pearse publicly stated in 1909: "I did not, as you know, succeed in winning the prize, neither did anybody else."
The article is a biography of Pearse and his achievements. In contemporary context, Hargrave's 1901 comments represent the difficulties common among inventors.PH AKL (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated introduction to "Flight" section, 4 February 2022