Talk:D-flat minor

message: I read with interest the earlier debate about whether to delete this article (at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/D-flat_minor), and felt I could add something to it, were it not long closed.  Because the result of the debate was "No consensus", I suppose the issue could be raised again.  I wish to add a few thoughts here which I hope may be noticed, and count for something, if the debate arises again in the future.
I believe my comments would argue firmly in favour of keeping the article.  I have had a life-long familiarity with classical music, especially from the 19th and 20th centuries, and my arguments are based on extensive personal knowledge.
I believe participants in the debate were getting a bit confused between two issues which are really quite separate:
:1. The key of D-flat minor; and
:2. The key signature of D-flat minor.
A lot of the debate about whether this key really "exists" or not seemed to arise purely because of a failure to distinguish between these two things.
1.
:The key of D-flat minor certainly exists, and that's regardless of whether you're in equal temperament or not - that is, regardless of whether C-sharp minor is regarded as the same or equivalent.  While I do not know of any piece which is wholly in this key, it is not too uncommon to find passages of several bars' length in this key.  They tend to be found in pieces with several flats in their key signature, or in pieces which have modulated very distantly, in a flat direction, from their home key.
:Some composers have a tendency to use extreme flat keys in preference to the sharp equivalent, even when that might be easier.  Examples include Janacek and Albeniz.  Such passages do not necessarily change key signature to reflect such extreme flat keys.
:Janacek's Violin Sonata is arguably in A-flat minor.  (I say "arguably in" rather than just "in", because modal influences in the piece do cloud the tonality just slightly in places.  But it is more in A-flat minor than in any other key, despite not using a 7-flat key signature.)
:Albeniz's "Iberia" is replete with passages that pass through such obscure keys as F-flat major and D-flat minor, complete with thickets of flats and double-flats.  For example, the first movement contains a whole page of music in C-flat major, complete with 7-flat key signature.  (Several bars within that passage are in C-flat *minor*.)  The 8th movement, "El Polo", goes through some very hairy modulations through extreme flat keys, beyond the traditional 7-flat limit.  I don't have the score in front of me, but feel sure this includes quite prominent passages in both D-flat minor and F-flat major.
:I might add that pieces cited as being "in" D-flat minor are almost certainly wrong.  This is certainly so of most of the examples actually cited in the debate.  Amazon is useless as a reference for keys of pieces, because it is riddled with mistakes and typos of all kinds.  In general, Amazon may have some use for finding out of the existence of a book or piece of music (as well as for buying it); but, for bibliographical purposes, *nothing* there should be taken as accurate without corroborating it from other more reliable sources.
:I've noticed that, especially in late-romantic music, there is a tendency in many pieces for chromatic notes (any note with an accidental in front of it) to be raised more often than lowered.  If a particular piece in D-flat/C-sharp minor had a strong enough preponderance of raised notes over lowered notes, it might actually make sense to notate the piece in D-flat minor rather than C-sharp minor (although you would probably not attempt to use an actual D-flat-minor key signature).  Notes that were double-sharps (or "difficult" single sharps like E-sharp or B-sharp) in C-sharp minor would become mostly naturals in D-flat minor, and thus be easier to read.
:In such a case, D-flat minor might become a practical key, not merely a theoretical oddity, although I don't know of an example of a piece that begins or ends in this key.
2.
:It is more debatable whether the key *signature* of D-flat minor exists; but it cannot be ruled definitively *not* to exist, either.
:Certainly it exists as a theoretical construct, and could be represented in either of these ways (using a lower-case "b" here to represent a flat sign):
::Bbb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb
::Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb Bb
:It may not be totally theoretical, for that matter: I have actually seen a score that, for about 8 bars, actually changes to a D-flat-minor key signature.  I can't remember the composer's name or the title of the pieces, but the music was by a 19th-century American composer.  I have a book of music somewhere containing the piece, and I think I have a .pdf file of it too - if I can find either of these, I will come back and add it as a reference.  (The piece is somewhere on the I.M.S.L.P. site.)
:The composer got the key signature wrong, actually: he started his key-signature with Bbb, but also added an additional Bb at the end.  Presumably he was just wishing to emphasize the double-flatness of the B, but the signature he used had the effect of incorrectly triple-flattening it, if you take the signature literally.  Be this as it may, it certainly indicates an intention to notate a D-flat-minor key signature.
I believe these factors would argue quite firmly, if not conclusively, in favour of keeping the article, should a debate arise again about deleting it. M.J.E. (talk) 22:03, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is eight and a half years late, but Max Reger uses such a redundant signature with both B and B for an illustration on pp. 42ff of Supplement to the Theory of Modulation (link). Double sharp (talk) 13:56, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belated arguments for keeping article, if deletion issue arises again. 

message: This article mentioned that "two of Verdi's most well-known operas, La traviata and Rigoletto, unusually, both end very decisively in D♭ minor." However, according to the scores available on the International Music Scores Library Project (IMSLP), both these operas in fact end in D♭ major, not D♭ minor. I believe that this statement is erroneous. Please help verify this. Nishantrvps (talk) 08:36, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at the score of La traviata at Indiana (http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/bhr7293/). There's a key change from A major returning to D-flat major in the finale (on "in^solito vigor"), but it changes soon, on the word "o muor", to D-flat minor. The last chord is D–F-A, clearly D-flat minor. In Rigoletto, the chord under "la maledizione" (sung on repeated Fs which is not part of D-flat major), seems D-flat minor to me (G-B-D-F. After that, it gets chromatic, ending on several bars of a unison D, but the last chord before that is also D–F-A. I think the article is correct. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:57, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major vs. Minor in La traviata/Rigoletto 

message: The infobox places the B double-flat as the first element of the key signature whereas the diagrams in the text place it last.  Which is correct?  Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:05, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The same can be observed at E-sharp minor / G-sharp major. Judging by User:Double sharp's comments in the  of F-flat major, a) there are only 2 works notated with 8 accidentals; b) they use different placements. According to the comments at :File:Db minor key signature.png (used in the infobox), User:Hyacinth created that file with Sibelius, whereas the in-text scale is produced by LilyPond. As Double sharp observed, there is no absolutely correct way. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:57, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this key signature is almost (or even totally?) non-existent in any printed music.  We ought not to allow the inconsistency here to persist, confusing the reader, unless accompanied by an explanation complete with reliable sources.  I propose simply removing the in-text drawings altogether. Feline Hymnic (talk) 14:29, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The depiction of the full scale, done in LilyPond, is part of every article on musical scales. I prefer to keep it here as well. Instead of removing it, the text could explain the notational variations between scorewriter programs and the lack of a standard notation. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:33, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency in diagrams