Talk:Borscht

message: This article combines 3 separate themes: 
* barszcz ukrainsky and its Borscht Belt adventures;
* a whole family of traditional борщ Slavic dishes;
* a way to cook a modern beet soup that's neither exact barszcz ukrainsky nor belonging to the family of traditional борщ.
Hope this helps. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quite right.  As I recall from more than a decade ago, it started as a pretty straightforward look at Ukrainian beet-based borsch and its life as Jewish diaspora "borscht" in English-speaking countries (primarily the US).  Then a certain group of editors objected to the "t" and started including anything that was souplike in the Slavic world that had a name that was etymologically related to the Proto-Slavic form without regard to its ingredients or historical relationship to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht".  Then everyone wanted to include grandma's version.  One idea for cleaning up the mess is to 1) drop grandma's recipes, 2) make a separate article for Slavic soups in general, and 3) restrict this article to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht" via the Yiddish-speaking Jewish diaspora to America.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to think of this idea for 30 minutes and all I can say is comme si comme ça. Back to my actual job... 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

text: This article is high-importance for Slavs already; Therefore it should be the other way round: move the mid-importance stuff in a separate entry. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

text: This explains the consensus. A decent ground to stand at, honestly. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 06:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Concerning this article, it is the English language article, so the primary focus should be on the beet-based varieties called "borscht" in English.  The topic may well be of high interest to Slavs, but we have to always consider the primary audience of this version of Wikipedia to be English speakers of the countries where English is the primary language.  A second article can focus on matters of importance to Slavs, namely the range of soups that are labeled with a modern cognate of the Proto-Slavic form *bar... (whatever the correct form is), but since most Slavs are not native speakers of English, that is of less importance to the English Wikipedia.  Still very important to certain communities, but not as important to the particular community that the English Wikipedia is focused on.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 00:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I do believe you deserve to use the word "varieties" in all its varieties :) 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:F1B7:B1BF:19FC:3C5E (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

text: [UPDATE] Welcome back.
* Long story short: they do make several smaller articles in place of a big one in a similar situation. 
* As for the details: Making a "Happened before" section. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a quick heads-up. 

message: The origin-related issue with a similar ground took place in the article on holishkes; as those, apparently, are also referred to as "golub". 
* As for now, there are a separate entries for holishkes, for golabki and - to cover every other similar dish, such as "голубцы" - an entry for cabbage rolls in general 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Happened before 

message: Honorary mention of a, so-to-say, linguistic overlap... Even though they only drink it in Japan now; Zima (drink) from 1990's: the word has a basic meaning in Slavic languages all while it also has an interesting meaning in Hebrew.
* The former is somewhat relevant to the drink, which pretty much looks like a bottle of vodka-based drink (also, see 1998 ads with "A few degrees cooler" slogan)
* The latter is... also relevant, given it's a sweeter-than-beer alcoholic drink (and not just a kid-friendly fizzy pop)(also, see early Zima ads) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honorary mention of an overlap of applicable meanings for a name for an [[alcopop]] 

message: Is there any evidence that the beet (red) version of borscht originated in Ukraine?
Beet versions of borscht can be found in Russian Empire’s cookbooks published in Moscow.
For example:https://search.rsl.ru/ru/record/01002989045 1816
or https://archive.org/details/druk-02/page/n9/mode/2up 1779
176.99.249.99 (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The sources are listed in the text.  And even when the earliest sources state "russian empire" they localize the origin to the region of Ukraine.  We use modern names for locations, so when it says that the origin was in the "lower Dnieper River Basin" (for example), that's Ukraine in Wikipedia.  This has been discussed before so look it up in the archives of the Talk Page here.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Also, if you're going to use non-English sources, they don't count and we can ignore them unless you provide a translation into English here.  You can't expect any of us to know russian.  Some might, but most of us don't.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Apologies, its 1AM here. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Well, they do count. We prefer sources in English, but sources in other languages are fine too, especially if they're higher quality than any English sources we can find. But yes, we do need some way to verify, which typically means we need someone to translate. And IP, you might consider creating an account. It has many benefits both to you and to other editors. For us it means we know whether we're in conversation with one person or many, it means we can WP:PING you, leave messages on your talk page. For you it means you can develop a reputation -- for instance, for translating accurately. Valereee (talk) 16:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Apparently, the article was made for the borscht Yiddish speaking immigrants used make in Borscht Belt; not borschts in general. That's ridiculous, but it is what it is, the Slav soups are now described "variants" of the soup Yiddish-speaking Americans have brought to the agglomeration of New York. That's a bit of stretch, though. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:1994:C636:2E70:1067 (talk) 00:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Hey, IP. Not sure what you're meaning with this? Valereee (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Valereee. The borscht "as served in America" variant is currently overshadowed with the variants that have stayed in [continental] Europe. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:A50D:7CEB:384E:98D0 (talk) 13:17, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, anon IP, beet-based borscht as found in America because this is the English language Wikipedia, so items that are more important in the English-speaking world should be expected to overshadow things that don't occur commonly in the English-speaking world.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The overshadowing isn't reflected properly in the article, to be honest. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:344E:20E2:348A:D3EA (talk) 18:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly misread your first comment, I think.  I agree that all those "varieties" need their own article because they are overwhelming the beet-based borscht that should be highlighted in this article.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 10:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of beet borscht 

message: From the mobile device, there are excessive blank lines at the end of some paragraphs; for example, this one: Borscht#Novel ingredients: beets, tomatoes and potatoes. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks2A00:1370:81A2:4024:72DE:1715:61B6:2595 (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive lines 

message: It would be of great help to replace the "variation" word with something else. Borscht qua borscht is one thing, any similar but different dish is be another. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 06:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request to get rid of the "variations" word 

message: >but since most Slavs are not native speakers of English
I disagree; but support the idea to split the article into "Y.-sp. Am." soup" and "Slav" soups" to avoid further mishaps and disagreements. The "native speaker" status may mean... well, something; but, due to globalization, a lot of Slavs use English to communicate *with other Slavs*. Why? Short answer: False friends such as čerstve pecivo (the pic in the article). 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:17D:97E4:7818:6F0D (talk) 00:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because a lot of Poles and Serbs and Ukrainians use English as a SECOND language (not, by definition, "native") is not relevant.  "Borscht" is the normal English word for the beet-based soup in native-speaking regions of the globe, especially the Americas.  When I lived in Ukraine (and now that I'm back in the US with a Ukrainian wife), I used "borsch" even when speaking English, because that's the word that the native Ukrainian and Russian speakers recognized and used in their English.  But the "native" English word has that lovely "t" at the end.  However we agree on one thing (and I suspect even without polling that the majority of editors here will agree with us), that this article needs to be split into an article on the beet-based soup that is commonly known "avec t" in English as "borscht" and an article on other Slavic (and Slavic-adjacent) eastern European soups that are not beet-based, but are called by a name "sans t" in the local language.  That will also solve the pesky "variants" problem.   --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I'm having a hard time following since this is being discussed in more than one section. @TaivoLinguist, is your point that there are two distinct dishes with similar names, and that they could both be supported from reliable sources as notable dishes? Valereee (talk) 12:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Valereee.  In Proto-Slavic there was a word *bar... (something or other) that referred to "sour soup".  That Proto-Slavic form then naturally changed over time into a word in most (if not all) modern Slavic languages that still refers to some sort of sour soup in that culture.  Those various sour soups in the Slavic world should have their own article.  In Ukraine, that particular sour soup is called "borsch" (in the Ukrainian language) and is based on beets.  It is that particular soup (and not any of the other Slavic sour soups) that was brought to the US by Yiddish-speaking immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries and was called, in Yiddish, "borscht".  This particular sour soup, called "borscht" in English and based on beets, is the subject of this particular article.  Thus there are two articles that should exist in the English Wikipedia--this article about "borscht", the beet-based soup that most English speakers associate with the word, and a second article on Slavic sour soups in general whose names in the local language usually derive from the Proto-Slavic word for "sour soup" and that are not derived from beets and whose names are not, literally, "borscht" (with a t).  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @TaivoLinguist, I'd love to see us create Slavic sour soups! Can we simply spin off from this article, are the sources good enough? I think we'd need to see three sources using the term 'Slavic sour soups' (or whatever) and giving sigcov. Valereee (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Like maybe just spin off the entire Namesakes without beets section? Valereee (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "Slavic sour soups" may accidentally grab kapustnica and some other non-borscht sour soups. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:2D93:F9B0:7994:441 (talk) 20:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not a problem. Those soups can be linked, don't have to be merged unless there's scant support for independent notability for a given one. Valereee (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Still, it sounds like a good idea to make this little spinoff. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:2D93:F9B0:7994:441 (talk) 20:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please do not discriminate English users for not being "native speakers" because reasons