Talk:BDORT/Mediation

message: Alrighty, it seems to me that the disputed material is pretty specific to BDORT and the sourcing thereof. So I'll take a moment to address those things, and then get things started.
On sourcing: Everyone has slightly different interpretations of WP:RS, some rather strict, some relatively lax. On these points, it's important to be a little flexible in both directions. What's really important to remember about reliable sources is this: a source has to not just be reliable, but also properly represented. That is to say, a source may be up to the standards of quality for citation on Wikipedia, but not for the issue it is being cited on. If the author of the source isn't an authority on the issue in question, then he, for all intents and purposes, is not an authority.
On BDORT: I'm relatively ignorant on the subject, honestly. I will recommend that everyone (re)read WikiProject CAM's Standards of Quality for guidelines on how they deal with these sorts of issues.
As as I said before, I'd like to really hash out the discussion on this. So go right ahead and list your disputed material below, along with the rationalization, and a suggestion of what ought to be done (whether rewrite, removal, sourcing, whatever). And try and keep in mind everything we've discussed so far.
Did I miss anything? Let me know if there's something I've passed over that you'd like to discuss -- I'm here for you guys, not the other way around. - Che Nuevara 17:34, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Che, thank you for the very clear introduction. Since as I previously mentioned I think the current version is fairly complete and balanced (though not perfect), and since I am well aware that Richard does not feel so, I think it makes sense to let Richard start and present his main grievances and then we can address them one at a time. What I would highly recommend, however, is to try to focus on one atomic issue at a time; my concern, based on past experience in this article, is that by putting too many items on the plate at the same time, we'll lose track of the critical path and drift off on tangents. Thanks, Crum375 17:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Acknowledged. I think that's a good idea, actually. Let's do our best to keep focused -- a chaotic disagreement is less likely to come to consensus than one under control. - Che Nuevara 02:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed material is pretty specific to BDORT

message: OK, I have copied what I started doing and what we started doing in Mediation, a list of contended (and  some decided on sources) and a list of to adds (also some discussed already).
Anyone can pick anyone they want and start with that. If anyone wants to go back on an agreement made in the Mediation please say so now, otherwise I suggest we just repeat the deletions we made from the current version immediately, as simply economy of time and effort.Richardmalter 09:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be helpful if you would give a specific sentence or two on each piece, ie, "This is not a reliable source because X is not qualified to assess Y" or the like. I noticed in the archives that some citations were contested because they were unreliable, and some because they were reliable sources inappropriately applied. It will be important to maintain these distinctions. - Che Nuevara 15:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Che, yes, sorry, will do. Crum, can we first just go over what was decided in mediation, and you say if you now contest what was decided, thanks. Then we can go on to the shinnick paper if you like.Richardmalter 10:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Crum, I see it as respectful to our times not to repeat things. The two citations, a and b, listed below with links to the mediation archive (I have now inserted) were decided as not usable in any way that anyone suggested. You agreed/did not dispute these decisions. Do you now? If so for what reasons? If not they can be removed forthwith. Mediation efforts were aborted, but this does not change the fact that consensus was reached - something you argue for repeatedly - therefore I expect you to follow consensus decisions, unless you have fresh specific arguments to refute what was decided.Richardmalter 12:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Richard, I understand your concern for time, but I think what Crum is saying is reasonable for the reason that, if the issues are already clear and nothing has changed, the discussion ought to go very quickly. It makes sense, then, to start with them -- start on the most common ground ie those which were already basically agreed on, knock those pins over quickly, and then work from there. We've all made a committment to the process now, so we ought to be able to breeze right through the easy ones right on to the stick ones. - Che Nuevara 15:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: General discussion

message: Reuters – You may have heard of them ;-) They are (mostly) actual professional grownups who report things to other people, most of which are based in or at the least inspired by reality and very few of which are about anime or cosplay!!! Try not to be frightened!!!
No one scurrying about playing WikiGames wants WP to become even more of a joke than it's already become – right?
This would make the JimboGod frown and furrow his brow!!!
Try and get it right. Try and keep up.
Helpful Whiffle-Reminder: Concision and Clarity are your Friends!!! Whiffle 22:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Helpful Whiffleminder of the Importance of Precision in Presentation!!!

message: Whiffle finds this discussion faux-earnest, tedious, and non-fruitful and will await the un-locking of the entry in order to make more fruitful contributions. Whiffle 23:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WhifflePoof (ProTem)!!!

message: As promised!!!
Now, remember: Be civil, be nice, discuss, don't edit war, or ... You Will Walk The WhiffleThePirate! Plank of Doom!!! (Sharks need love, also food.) WhiffleThePirate! 05:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WhiffleThePirate! (The Return!!!)

message: G) Published paper. 'Preventive effect of Coriandrum sativum (Chinese parsley) on localized lead deposition in ICR mice. ' J Ethnopharmacol 2001 Oct;77(2-3):203-8 (ISSN: 0378-8741) Aga M; Iwaki K; Ueda Y; Ushio S; Masaki N; Fukuda S; Kimoto T; Ikeda M; Kurimoto M ,Hayashibara Biochemical Laboratories, Inc., Fujisaki Institute, 675-1 Fujisaki, Okayama 702-8006, Japan. -- paper confirms Omura's finding of effect of coriander as mercury removing agent; before Omura mentioned this effect, there is no report of coriander's property in this regard. ie Omura discoverer (via BDORT). Richardmalter 04:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Coriandrum sativum

message: It seems that no one objects to a complete rewrite of the article, which I think is a fine idea. If this is what's done -- and thank you again, Gzkn, for your help -- there are a few things which must be noted:
* The article is about Omura, not BDORT. The consensus of the AfD, as I understand, was to merge the BDORT info into the Omura article. This means that this article needs to be about Omura, with an appropriately structured section about BDORT.
* Hashing out sources before starting work on the article is putting the cart before the horse. There's no use discussing sources that we don't need. I think that a draft should be drummed up first, and then, if there's information from disputed sources that needs to go in, we can discuss them.
In reference to both of the above, Gzkn has expressed the opinion that the BDORT information should be significantly pared down. I agree.
I suppose, Gzkn, the next move is yours, then. I might poke around to see if anyone else is interested in joining the discussion. Thanks once again! - Che Nuevara 06:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (GAH, another edit conflict) With regard to trying to find a consensus on which citations to use, I disagree that that would be the best strategy. Basically, we would be taking time to discuss sources that might not even be useful in shaping the article (as Che said above, it would be putting the cart before the horse). I think a full rewrite would be better. Since no one has objected to me creating a new version, I will go ahead and do so. I will post a link to it when it will be ready for your comments (maybe one or two days). In the meantime, maybe we can all go get some ice cream or something. :) Gzkn 07:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: 'The only emperor is the emperor of ice cream.' TheStainlessSteelRat 07:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: See also the related AfD's Talk page. Crum375 12:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey folks. I will be at my parents' until the end of the week and thus won't be online a lot. Sorry for the inconvenience. I'll try to check in a couple of times. - Che Nuevara 06:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries. Just remember: Death To The Turkeys! (Unless, of course, you're Vegan, in which case the Pumpkin Pies are in for Real Trouble.)  Also, have a good holiday :) TheStainlessSteelRat 06:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm... anyone notice we seem to have a Food Theme going here? TheStainlessSteelRat 06:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Starting over

message: OK, since we can really say that the stub is stable in actual fact (no edit war!), can we go on to discuss other references. I would still like the Shinnick ref taken to the wider community - Che can I request a RfC on it? And in the meanwhile we can go on to the Manaka ref listed above. Please see mediation archives - it was discussed already at length. thanks.Richardmalter 21:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think an RfC would be appropriate. - Che Nuevara 23:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Che, I think you said above, and I agreed, that RfC makes sense only for the complete set of issues that we cannot resolve here. Doing it one item at a time would not be effective. Crum375 02:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Che, I am waiting for your reply regarding the RfC: one item at a time (as Richard proposes) or all the disputed items at once, as you agreed here. Richard, leaving a POV stub instead of a well sourced and well written article while we wait was never agreed to by any consensus that I can find. Crum375 13:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Richard, it seems to me that the version that AntonRojo last edited is the one that is most NPOV and is closest to the post-AfD consensus version. The stub version that was just reverted to by the anon-IP is unacceptable for the reasons I noted above: if it has Omura alone without BDORT, it would violate the AfD consensus, if it has BDORT without the NZ Tribunal reference, it would violate NPOV. And overall, by deleting much well sourced and pertinent material it destroys good encyclopedic content. There is no consensus or agreement whatsoever that I can find for this unacceptable stub version, hence it should be replaced with AntonRojo's last version. Crum375 19:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Richard, I certainly don't want an edit war. The stub version you are reverting to is POV, by mentioning BDORT and omitting the New Zealand Tribunal's report (NZT), which is the main well sourced reference we have for BDORT. Since the NZT reference is fairly negative to NDORT, by excluding it we are moving the balance in a positive direction. Hence the version with this omission is POV. Crum375 23:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessing other citations