Talk:Matt Urban

message: There are many questions attendant to Urban's Medal of Honor award and some of his other awards as well. Almost immediately after receiving the Medal of Honor, Legion of Merit and French Croix de Guerre in 1980 - almost 40 years after the actions for which he was cited - he initiated a campaign to be billed as "Most Decorated Soldier of World War II." Assisted by a "military historian" and dealer of military collectibles in Maryland, Urban succeeded in being listed as "Most Decorated . . " in Guiness' for a brief while.
Urban's combat record, however distinguished, doesn't begin to compare with Murphy's. Murphy was awarded the DISTINGUIHED SERVICE CROSS, second in precedence to the Medal of Honor, which Urban never received. Likewise, Murphy was awarded the LEGION D' HONNEUR AU GRADE DU CHEVALIER, France's top decoration. Urban did not. While Urban received the CROIX DE GUERRE AVEC ETOILE VERMEIL (FRANCE) - the French Croix de Guerre with silver-gilt star device - Murphy was TWICE awarded the CROIX DE GUERRE AVEC PALME (FRANCE), the French Croix De Guerre with palm device, the same decoration only in a higher degree or class. Murphy also received the CROIX DE GUERRE AVEC PALME (BELGIUM), the Belgian Croix de Guerre with palm device.
Re unit awards. Although the PRESIDENTIAL UNIT CITATION (ARMY)(formerly Distinguished Unit Emblem) is NOT an individual award, Urban was only entitled to ONE AWARD (to 2nd Battalion, 60th Infantry for action in the Sedjanane Valley, Tunisia in 1943). The only other award he could have been entitled to was for action at Sainte Colombe, France, but Urban was hospitalized in England at the time of that action. Urban's regiment, 60th Infantry, was cited twice in the Orders of the Day of the Belgian Army. This entitles the regiment to the Fouragerre in the colors of the Belgian Croix de Guerre with Palm. However, to be eligible for the Belgian Fourragere, an individual is required to have participated in BOTH actions for which the unit was cited. (Also, there is not, nor has there ever been, a "Belgian Fourragere Medal.") Urban participated in the action at Heer, Belgium, in which he was wounded and evacuated, effectively ending his military career altogether. While Murphy took part in 8 of the 10 designated campaigns for which 3rd Infantry Division was credited, Urban, given his dates of service, could only have taken part in four campaigns - Tunisia, Sicily, Normandy and Northern France. One bronze 3/16" star device for each campaign. Also, these star devices - like the Combat "V" device authorized for certain decorations - cannot properly be considered decorations or even awards. 
A complete list of Murphy's decorations and awards: Medal of Honor, 
Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star (two awards), Legion of Merit with "V" Device, Bronze Star with "V" Device (three awards), Purple Heart (three awards), Combat Infantryman Badge, Presidential Unit Citation (two awards), Distinguished Civilian Service Medal, Good Conduct Medal, Expert Qualification Badge with bar "Bayonet", Marksman Qualification Badge with bar "Carbine", American Theater Medal, European-African-Middle Eastern Theater Medal with 8 bronze campaign stars, World War II Victory Medal, Army of Occupation Service Medal with "Europe" Clasp, Legion d' Honneur au Grade du Chevalier (France), Croix de Guerre avec Palme (France) (two awards), Croix de Guerre avec Palme (Belgium).
A complete list of decorations and awards to which Urban is actually entitled: Medal of Honor, Silver Star (two awards), Legion of Merit, Bronze Star with "V" Device (three awards), Purple Heart (seven awards), Combat Infantryman Badge, Presidential Unit Citation, American Defense Service Medal, American Theater Medal, European-African-Middle Eastern Theater Medal with 4 bronze campaign stars, World War II Victory Medal, Croix de Guerre avec Etoile Vermeil (France). Murphy never wore in excess of eight ribbons - Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star with Oak Leaf Cluster, Bronze Star with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters, Purple Heart with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters, European-African-Middle Eastern Theater Medal with 1 silver and 2 bronze campaign stars (representing 7 campaigns), French Legion of Honor and French Croix de Guerre with 2 palm devices. Urban wore all to which he was entitled (and then some).
A number of individuals' had combat records excelling Urban's. Lieutenant (later Vice Admiral) John D. Bulkeley, who evacuated MacArthur from the Philippines to Australia in 1942, was entitled to the Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Distinguished Service Cross (two awards), Distinguished Service Medal (three awards), Silver Star (two awards - one navy and one army), Legion of Merit (two awards), Purple Heart, Distinguished Service Order (Great Britain) and Croix de Guerre avec Etoile Vermeil (France). Army Air Corps Major Richard I. Bong, the all-time highest scoring American ace held the Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star (three awards), Distinguished Flying Cross (seven awards), Air Medal (fifteen awards), Purple Heart. Except for an additional award of the Purple Heart, Army Air Corps ace Thomas B. McGuire's record of awards was identical to Bong's.        
Bob Powell — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.107.78.249 (talk • contribs) 
Many Answers: Matt Urban's and Audie Murphys awards were corrected and updated by the Army. Matt Urban has more military medals and more "military decorations" (most number of decorations) than Audie Murphy for World War II. The Michigan DAV initiated Matt Urban' MOH inquiry for the MOH that he was recommended for in 1944 by his battalion commander who was KIA. The Army also presented to Urban a few other combat decorations (Bronze Star, V and Purple Heart) the day before he was presented the Medal of Honor by President Carter (WW2 veteran) in 1980. Urban also has the Amphibious Landing Arrowhead (landed on a raft and saved drowning infantrymen on way to the beach)) for Algeria-French Morocco, the French Croix de Guerre with Palm and the French Liberation Medal which Audie Murphy is not entitled to as a Legion of Honor recipient (also for the liberation of France as written on the citation).  
Matt Urban's war record and war-time experiences (autobiography, 1989) come out a matter of Audie Murphy being compared to Matt Urban, not Urban to Murphy when a real and not belittling (selfish) comparison is made of Urban. Audie Murphy (with 2 others) knocked out a tank with a bazooka at night while it was being repaired, Matt Urban knocked out 2 enemey tanks point-blank that were firing on his company (he got crippled by a third tank). While Audie (MOH) held a company position on a tank firing the turret's .50 calibur machinegun, then calling in artillery fire on the enemy, in 1945 -- Matt Urban (MOH) spearheaded his company, battalion, and Patton's troops out of the Normandy beach firing a tank turret's .50 calibur machinegun in 1944. Perhaps if Urban got his MOH back then he would have gotten the Legion of Honor from France. Matt Urban single handedly (WIA) reconned and knocked out Rommel's field communication center through on a platoon of Germans saving countless infantrymens lives in 1943 without a DSC. Urban was shot through the neck on Septemeber 3, 1944 taking out a machinegun spearheading in Belgium. In December 1944, "the Ghost"), appeared in Germany (his 6th campaign star) willing to lead and fight somemore.
Matt Urban was awarded 3 Bronze Star Medals, 2 with valor V's. The V-valor devices (and the bronze service stars; called campaign/battle stars) are not military awards by itself. One needs to be a member of or attached to and serving in a unit that is awarded the PUC to be entitled to the unit citation award. Matt Urban's unit (2/60) was cited (unit decoration) by the Belgium Army for the Meuse River action. Urban was awarded the Belgian Fouuragere and the Belgium Croix de Guerre with Palm (Belgium Fourragere Medal). Matt Urban's 9th Infantry Division was awarded 24 Distinguished Unit Citations for WW2, more DUC's than any other division. 
Matt Urban's was one of the army combat infantrymen (CIB) who were automatically awarded a Bronze Star Medal by President Roosevelt for their tough WW2 service. Captain Urban, a hand-to-hand combat soldier, personally personally took out an English speaking German parachute officer (and other German soldiers) in battle who started commanding and reversing his company's advancement on the enemy in heavy fighting in North Africa (Rommel). Enie Pyle was with the 9th Infantry Division in Europe. The 9th Infantry Division were the European Theater's boxing champs during WW2, coached by Urban.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs) 01:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, you say that Matt Urban has a book? Is this an (auto)biography? Can you provide details such as author, publisher, ISBN number so that it can be cited in the article? Wikipedia policy, especially for biographies, requires that editors provide reliable sources for claims made therein. Thanks. Elizium23 (talk) 05:27, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's great. Can you read Wikipedia:Citing sources and add this reference to any facts you might have included from the book? It would be great to correlate the article and the book in this way. Elizium23 (talk) 21:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Awards

message: Uhh, the photo of the Medal of Honor on the page (as of 3/28/07) is a Navy Medal of Honor!
Lyle F. Padilla
Major, Armor, US Army Reserve (Retired)
lpadilla@voicenet.com
209.158.189.60 14:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it was. I have fixed it now. jwillburtalk 16:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo of Medal of Honor

message: Does anyone know any information about who has these decorations today?  --Cjs56 19:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Decorations Today

message: This section is one large quote that was previously enclosed in  tags. Is it a direct quote of some source? Because if it is, we may have a copyright problem with quoting that much verbatim. Elizium23 (talk) 05:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I re-added it with a reference. As a work of the U.S. military it is in the public domain, so there is no copyright. It's a huge quote, but it describes his actions better than anything else. — jwillbur 22:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section Medal of Honor citation 

message: Wikipedia uses the term Valor device rather than "V-device". I prefer "Valor device" because 1) it's the name of the related article, 2) it's immediately understandable by readers unfamiliar with Army-speak, and 3) Wikipedia has no obligation or desire to use AR 670-1 as its manual of style. Rklawton (talk) 15:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. The "V" device denotes participation in acts of heroism involving conflict with an armed enemy. It is commonly referred to, and known as, the Valor device just as the "V" device. For encyclopedia clarity, the term Valor device should be used. Bullmoosebell (talk) 19:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Dept. of Defense Manual: Army- "V" device. "Decorations and awards" (not "Awards and decorations"). Matt Urban was awarded 2 BSM's for heroism (valor) and 1 BSM for meritorious service (no "V"), not "Bronze Star Medal (Valor) (3)". Urban was awarded the "bronze arrowhead" or "arrowhead" in WW2 (not "Arrowhead device"), the term "arrowhead device" wasn't in use. What is the so called "related article"? Seems you pick and choose what improvement and correction is legitimate to you for Wikipedia and prefer to use any reference containing different or false information as your own ligitimate excuses to undo ligitimate improvement and correction details to "help the articles".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.31.20 (talk) 21:47, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Indeed. By stating "Valor device" rather than "'V' device", users/readers can understand the nature of the award. Leaving the award device as the latter, users must then seek additional information, whereas the former disseminates the necessary information. Army Regulation 670-1 reflects only the description of the device because the device is a "V" (just like "M" for Mobilization, "E" for Excellence, "A" for Atlantic/Axis, & cluster of oak leaves is an oak leaf cluster). The "V" Device is the Valor device. Also, when citing a reference (such as DoD Manual 1348.33), it'd be best to include the information & link to the reference. Bullmoosebell (talk) 02:34, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

text: Will you please get it through your head that the DoD does not dictate our writing style and that you are the only editor wishing to make this change? We go by clarity and common sense. Can't you see that an average reader may well have no idea what a "V device" is whereas "Valor device" is self explanatory? And that forcing a reader to click on another link (not so easy when an article is printed) is simply an unnecessary inconvenience? Please - enough already. You've already been accused of editing for the purpose of disrupting Wikipedia. Your one-sided insistence on "V device" does nothing to disprove this notion. If you continue at this rate, and if it comes to a vote as it surely would, I most certainly will come down on the side of banning you from Wikipedia. Though I would prefer you simply change your approach and contribute productively and collegially. "Signing" your edits would also serve as a sign of maturity and willingness to conform to Wikipedia's editing standards. Rklawton (talk) 01:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

text: So what? Rklawton (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Valor device

message: YahwehSaves (a.k.a. 75.79.31.20), it appears you're trolling quite a few pages & creating edit wars. You've been warned, numerous times previously, about making such disruptive edits. If you wish your edits to take effect, you must: 1) Log in. 2) Follow the policies & guidelines, manual of style, and understand good faith. 3) Adhere to the agreed consensus of the article. As for the confusion with Matt Urban's accoutrements. Here's some clarity.
* Arrowhead device – Displayed at the Institute of Heraldry, IAW section 12 (Wear of Appurtenances), chapter 29 (Wear of Decorations, Service Medals, Badges, Unit Awards, and Appurtenances) of  Army Regulation 670-1 (Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia), "Appurtenances are devices affixed to service or suspension ribbons, or worn in lieu of medals or ribbons. They are worn to denote an additional award, participation in a specific event, or some other distinguishing characteristic of an award. The following appurtenances are authorized for wear on decorations, medals, ribbons and other awards, when authorized by appropriate authority"
:Paragraph f details the specifics of the Arrowhead. It is your freedom to call it an appurtenance, accoutrement, or device. Just understand exactly what those terms are used to describe. Ultimately, the article of the Arrowhead describes it as the Arrowhead device, in concert with the use of the term "device" in Awards and decorations of the United States military & United States military award devices. As such, the Arrowhead is, and shall remain, be described as a device, as is the consensus on the English Wikipedia.
* Croix de guerre – Such stars are for service in various levels of the chain of command, thus known as Service Stars. According to the Institute of Heraldry, "A gold star represents citation by a corps, a silver star by a division, and a bronze star by a brigade/regiment."
:I understand seeking accuracy, but I do not disagree with using the term "service" to describe the device. If the consensus wishes, the proper term can be Citation Star (given TIOH's legal description of the star) or Award Star (given the star is awarded, IAW section 1 of chapter 29 of AR 600-8-22)
* European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal – The Institute of Heraldry displays the Service Star to be awarded to the European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal (as well as various others), IAW paragraph c, section 13 (European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal), chapter 5 (Service Medals and Service Ribbons) of Army Regulation 600-8-22 (Military Awards), "One bronze service star is authorized for each campaign under the following conditions:"
:Campaign stars, though used as slang to describe Service stars, are used to denote US Navy Star Awards (thus the redirection to the specific Wikipedia article).
This is not meant to be degrading or insulting. Rather, I applaud your pursuit to make Wikipedia a greater source of information. Let's get together on this, and other edits that have been viewed as disruptive, and do the right thing. Bullmoosebell (talk) 22:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:DE|Disruptive edits]] by [[User:YahwehSaves|YahwehSaves]] (a.k.a. [[User:75.79.31.20|75.79.31.20]]) 

message: Per WP:EUPHEMISM it is not acceptable to say things such as 'passed away, gave his life, resting place'. Please use the correct term, 'died'. Elizium23 (talk) 12:54, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct, Wikipedia advises that suggestion, but it's not a matter of correct or incorrect. Given the text of the article is to be agreed upon consensually, are there any opinions to using the phrase "passed away" as opposed to the term "died?" Bullmoosebell (talk) 01:32, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I assumed others have used the term "passed away" and you didn't reprimand them. Everyone knows what "passed away" means when its used in the article that away. What's your go by common sence disparity for "aged" instead of age in the Urban box and some others bio boxes? Even cemetery stones (Arlington) don't say "died" (or "aged").  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.31.20 (talk) 08:11, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Passed away" or "passed on" or just "passed" are religious expressions. "Died" is factual, and that's the standard here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:02, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

text: "Aged" refers to an end point or attainment, "age" refers to a constantly ageing thing with a future expiry - someone who is dead has no "age" they died a certain age and the term "aged" specifically means they attained the age stated. Knowledge is not about civility, it is about unbiased truth. "Passed on" may sound pleasant, but it carries religious implications and is also not a term that translates its meaning to other languages, where "died" is the same thing internationally. Proper use of words is not a matter of low standard, which is a speculative and unsupported view. The comment regarding headstones at Arlington Cemetery is a moot point. They may not say "aged" or "died", but they don't use any alternative wording either, which means there's no counter suggestion to offer here, and even then it is unlikely that the entirety of Wiki would follow the practice of one U.S. military cemetery, contrary to WP:ENGVAR practice, the headstones in Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial don't even have a birthdate, so it's hardly a universal standard. An infobox does need labels though, it can't just have dates like a headstone, given that many infoboxes contain more than just those 2 dates. WP:IAR does not apply here, nor does common sense, as has been suggested. This is a WP:MOS standard, which is designed to encourage formats that can be understood by everyone regardless of their level of English. If we start employing colloquial phrases, even via local consensus, the standards of articles would slip. Also, such violations of the MOS would prevent the article ever attaining high standards, such as FA. Why anyone would want to do that is nonsensical. Ma®©usBritish{chat} 01:44, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Euphemisms are not acceptable 

message: His given name was Urbanowicz. 
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/murban.htm
The above site gives incorrect spelling of his former last name. The US Army Silver Star Index, WWII is referenced here for his 2 Silver Stars ("Urbanowitz, Matty L.", HQ 9th Infantry Division  )  YahwehSaves (talk) 18:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surname 

message: Matt Urban appears to have received the most number of individual decorations for combat awarded to an infantryman by the US Army for WWII. Llewellyn Chilson received the most number of combat decorations for valor awarded to an infantryman by the US Army for WWII. Both received US individual decorations for combat in WWII from the US Army after the war:<BR>
Matt Urban received 14 individual decorations for combat (5 for valor) from the US Army.
(MOH, 2 SS, LM, 3 BSM, 7 PH)<BR>
Llewellyn Chilson received 12 individual decorations for combat (7 for valor) from the US Army.
(3 DSC, 3 SS, LM, 2 BSM, 3 PH)<BR>
Audie Murphy received 10 individual decorations for combat (5 for valor) from the US Army.
(MOH, DSC, 2 SS, LM, 2 BSM, 3 PH)<BR>
A foreign individual decoration for combat may be awarded for the same action as an Army individual decoration was awarded for. Murphy was awarded the MOH and the French Legion of Honor for the Colmar Pocket. YahwehSaves (talk) 07:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Legion of Merit has never been awarded for valor by the Army. Therefore it'd be incorrect to list it among valor awards of individuals.Dmanrock29 (talk) 01:34, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

text: A reliable source is the only way to settle this matter. All of our counting and positing really do not mean very much.  EricSerge (talk) 18:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean "combat decorations?" There's no such distinction in the US order of precedence. There are "Personal decorations" which include both awards for valor and service, i.e a soldier receiving the Army Commendation Medal for Valor for a valorous act in combat then receiving a Army Commendation Medal as his decoration for his service for the whole of his deployment. Despite whatever convoluted line of thinking you're following your classifications of awards are obviously disregarding each of these service members "US Military service and training awards" (campaign medals) as well as "Foreign Military Personal Decorations" and state awards (Murphy received the Texas Legislative Medal of Honor posthumously for valor during WW2.) Dmanrock29 (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

text: Again, I restate my prior assertion that, a reliable source is the only way to settle this matter. All of our counting and positing really does not mean very much. EricSerge (talk) 20:51, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Urban, most decorated infantryman by US Army, WWII

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Matt Urban. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add  after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140104212606/http://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/funeralinformation/OrderHeadstone.aspx to http://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/funeralinformation/OrderHeadstone.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 20:53, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Matt Urban. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091231211059/http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/wwII-t-z.html to http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/wwII-t-z.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110722181345/http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf to http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:35, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Matt Urban. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131226041555/http://www2.erie.gov/veterans/index.php?q=lt-col-matt-quotthe-ghostquot-urban to http://www2.erie.gov/veterans/index.php?q=lt-col-matt-quotthe-ghostquot-urban
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131226041555/http://www2.erie.gov/veterans/index.php?q=lt-col-matt-quotthe-ghostquot-urban to http://www2.erie.gov/veterans/index.php?q=lt-col-matt-quotthe-ghostquot-urban
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:57, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)