Talk:Kaiser Permanente

message: I have created an archive of the old discussions.  There were no current discussions about improving this article, and the talk page was really long.  In case anyone needs to know in the future, I used the Move Page method.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Kaiser Permanente.png

message: "One of the most dubious ventures of the Permanente Company is Kaiser Permanente Ventures, a venture capital firm that invests in emerging medical technologies.[4]"  Why is this dubious? Magmagoblin2 (talk) 02:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's weasely at best, and likely just a random editor's opinion.  I suspect the editor that inserted it may find it "dubious" that a not-for-profit health plan has a for-profit investment arm, but it's unsourced and ought to be removed.  jæs (talk) 18:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious? 

message: In reading through this article, it appears to have a flavor more like a polemic antipathetic to Henry Kaiser and appears editorial and very POV in nature, especially in the HISTORY section. I would suggest the following: 1) if there is serious evidence that Henry Kaiser's re-involvement with the organization caused problems, then remove judgmental words like 'micromanaged' and cite sources with hard numbers, ie show with properly footnoted citations that revenue X1 and membership X2 went to some lower levels Y1 and Y2.  2) while some of the language used here may be quoted from footnoted sources, it is still clearly judgmental in nature and needs to be toned down to meet the NPOV criterion "Prefer non-judgmental language"; 3 Follow the NPOV standards throughout the article... I see from a preceding post here that much of the editing here has been done by a former KP employee with an ax grind... perhaps a more neutral editor who has access to the mentioned and footnoted sources and to other citations on the subject that balances the OPINION shown here can come up with a reasonable re-wording L. Greg (talk) 03:33, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is neutral; you're reading too much into it.  I drafted most of the first part of the history section, which was based on a history of Kaiser Permanente that was done with KP's cooperation (but was not sponsored by it) and was clearly pro-KP and pro-HMO.  There was a LOT of detail in there about how Henry Kaiser came in and along with the hapless Garfield nearly ran KP into the ground until Clifford Keene took over.  But I didn't have the time or energy to put all that in, plus 90% of people aren't interested in reading all that tedious detail (this is an encyclopedia, not a compendium).  That's why I wrote that section the way I did, to summarize the content of the book so readers interested in the gory details can go pursue them if they need it. --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article not NPOV 

message: with 35 medical centers (hospitals), i think we should have them included in the article. any of them which offer Emergency Services should have their own articles, esp. if they have high trauma center ratings.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:16, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Medical centers

message: Greetings. The "Governance" section is a bit outdated and I would like to add a listing for Kaiser Permanente's current Boards of Directors and national leadership. I have included URLs for each leader's executive biography from Kaiser Permanente's corporate news website; in addition, this URL can serve as a third-party citation for this data: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/people.asp?privcapId=173830
The suggested addition begins below. Thank you for your consideration.
Board of Directors
Bernard J. Tyson Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
		
Christine K. Cassel, MD, MACP
Thomas W. Chapman, MPH, EdD
	
Jeff Epstein
			
Daniel P. Garcia, JD Senior vice president and chief compliance and privacy officer
William R. Graber
J. Eugene Grigsby
Judith A. Johansen, JD
Kim J. Kaiser
Philip A. Marineau
Edward Pei
Meg Porfido, JD
Richard P. Shannon, MD
Cynthia A. Telles, PhD
Kaiser Permanente National Leaders
Bernard J. Tyson Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
		
Jack Cochran, MD, FACS Executive director, The Permanente Federation, LLC
Gregory A. Adams Executive vice president, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan; Group president, Kaiser Permanente Northern California and Mid-Atlantic States; President, Kaiser Permanente Northern California
Benjamin K. Chu, MD, MPH, MACP Executive vice president, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan; Group president, Kaiser Permanente Southern California and Hawaii; President, Kaiser Permanente Southern California
Patrick Courneya, MD Executive vice president, Hospitals, Quality and Care Delivery Excellence; chief medical officer, Medicare Advantage, Cost and Prescription Drug Plans
Philip Fasano Executive vice president and chief information officer
	
Kathy Lancaster Executive vice president and chief financial officer, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan
Donna Lynne, DrPH Executive vice president Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan, Inc.; Group president, Kaiser Permanente Colorado, Northwest and Georgia; President, Kaiser Foundation Health Plan of Colorado
Arthur M. Southam, MD, MBA, MPH Executive vice president, Health Plan Operations
Anthony A. Barrueta Senior vice president, Government Relations
Raymond J. Baxter, PhD Senior vice president, Community Benefit, Research and Health Policy
													
Chuck Columbus	Senior vice president and chief Human Resources officer, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals and Health Plan
										
Amy Compton-Phillips, MD Associate executive director, Quality, The Permanente Federation
															
Chris Grant Senior vice president, Corporate Development, Care Delivery Strategy and Venture Investments
													
Scott Young, MD	Associate executive director, Clinical Care and Innovation, The Permanente Federation, Senior medical director and executive director, Care Management Institute
				
Mark Zemelman Senior vice president and general counsel
	
vggolla (talk) 23:05, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a section for the board of directors.  I didn't find Wikipedia bios for any of the directors.  I'm not sure the rest of the org chart would add much to the article.  Given limited resources, keeping this sort of information up-to-date is a challenge for Wikipedia.  It might be more useful to direct users to an official Kaiser website where they could find this info. Best regards,—Stepheng3 (talk) 00:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding Board of Directors and National Leadership 

message: Hi. Vince from KP here. I’ve noticed that there’s an awful lot of editorializing that has crept into this article within the last week. More specifically, the section “Grossly Inadequate Mental Health Care” strikes me as very non-NPOV. 
  
As I look at the article more, it also looks like someone copied the veterans section from a KP source. Most folks in my position probably wouldn’t complain, but I want to make sure we do right by Wikipedia just as much as we might seek fair treatment here. 
  
Anyone willing to help here? Alternatively, I can author suggested text in my Sandbox for you all to evaluate. Let me know, and thank you. vggolla (talk) 00:12, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd love to hear from Kaiser's current drug purchasing manager  about why the Kaiser pharmacy charges 5-10 times as much for some generics compared to, say, Target.  --Elvey(t•c) 14:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NOTFORUM. Jytdog (talk) 14:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you follow the link I added?  There's some encyclopedic content there.  Certainly enlightening (in conjunction with the for-profit/not-for-profit split info) that Kaiser charges 5-10 TIMES as much <sic> as for-profit Target does to provide the same generic drug.  Anyone willing to help flesh out some encyclopedic content about that?--Elvey(t•c) 19:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  what is the content you are proposing? Jytdog (talk) 00:06, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Jytdog Clarification regarding what parts of KP are/aren't for-profit, such as Kaiser's labs and pharmacies. Information I don't have access to, but Vince may.--Elvey(t•c) 00:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a different question.  In any case, an answer from the drug purchasing manager posted here would not be a reliable source from which to create content. Jytdog (talk) 15:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You really frequently misinterpret/misrepresent - I didn't imply Vince was the drug purchasing manager or a RS.  Rather, I said Kaiser's drug purchasing manager is discussed here: .  It's not a 'different question'. It's not a question at all. Again you misinterpret/misrepresent.  Please stop doing that.  If you have nothing constructive to say, please be quiet! --Elvey(t•c) 17:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

text: You say that you don't know what more there is to say. Just keep your mouth shut when it comes to commenting about what I do or don't do or say or think or want.  Please. I'm sick and tired of you really frequently misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I've said.  I didn't imply Vince was the drug purchasing manager or a RS.  Period.  Now you try to tell me why I started this thread, when I didn't start it at all. Vggolla did.  Please. Don't. Reply. --Elvey(t•c) 19:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-neutral POV content? 

message: Example: I noticed that the section “Grossly Inadequate Mental Health Care” seems to have been removed from the article entirely.  Seems hard to see the imposition and unappealed payment of "a $4 million fine against Kaiser for not providing adequate health care to its customers" and a strike over the care failures as entirely unworthy of mention.  The section above suggests a possible COI issue. User:Jytdog, please comment on your edit and suggest  solution.   --Elvey(t•c) 07:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: i don't know if you are aware but there is a labor dispute between Kaiser and some of their staff.  One of the union's arguments is that Kaiser is hurting patients by not providing enough staff to give adequate care.  That content was clearly driven by that conflict and clearly violated NPOV. Jytdog (talk) 14:58, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Addressed/resolved. Discussion is here.--Elvey(t•c) 09:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Still a lot of whitewashing needs remediation.  E.g. no longer any mention of the $20-30 Billion in reserves KP has stashed away. http://www.marinij.com/health/20150319/california-drops-hammer-on-blue-shield-tax-exempt-status/1 says "Kaiser Permanente ... has $21.7 billion in cash reserves, more than 1,600 times the amount required by state regulations."--Elvey(t•c) 15:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: are you for some reason unable to edit the article? Jytdog (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Again: The WP:DR POLICY states, "always explain your changes in the edit summary." and "If you are reverted, continue to explain yourself". Will you agree to start honoring that?--Elvey(t•c) 23:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whitewashing 

message: The source code of the page that is the #1 hit at https://www.google.com/search?q=kaiser+for-profit+pharmacies includes the text "for-profit, retail pharmacies filled 73% of U.S. prescriptions in the first half of 2011, and many have to answer to shareholders. They’re more focused on turning a profit than helping you reduce your pharmacy costs." but the web page does not include that content.  It appears to be invisible and appears backward when in-page searching is used. Screen shot. --Elvey(t•c) 07:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What does this have to do, with the content or sourcing of this article? Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: See blinders.--Elvey(t•c) 00:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Please comment on content, not contributors.  Thanks.  Jytdog (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Black hat SEO - search engine optimization 

message: Greetings - Vince from Kaiser Permanente. We've just released our new annual report and all of the demographic data in the first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry is significantly out of date. Could I offer this URL http://share.kaiserpermanente.org/static/kp_annualreport_2014/) as the basis to change these items? Below is the data in the current entry, followed by the updated data in our most recent annual report.
9.1 million members   >> 9.6 million members 
174,425 employees >> 177,445 employees 
17,425 physicians  >>   17,791 physicians 
49,778 nurses ((new data, would offer that the audience would likely be interested in this specific measure)) 
38 medical centers  >> 38 medical centers 
608 medical offices >>  620 medical offices 
$53.1 billion operating revenue >> $56.4 billion operating revenue 
$2.7 billion net income   >>   $3.1 billion net income 
While I recognize that some will see an annual report reference as NNPOV, I would offer that this merely replaces out-of-date data with the most current annual report data we have available.
Alternatively, as User:StephEng3 suggested here on 00:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: please make those simple, factual updates yourself and update the source. I will check when you are done. Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, that was good. Jytdog (talk) 03:58, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updating annual report data 

message: Greetings. Vince from Kaiser Permanente here. Thank you for your assistance one year ago in updating the basic data for our organization via our annual report. Our latest report is now out - 
https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/static/kp_annualreport_2015/
https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/static/kp_annualreport_2015/#numbers
and I would like to update the basic information in the first two paragraphs of this page, and the callout box in the right margin. We've recently had a journalist hit this page and ask about the differences in the data; thus, it would be helpful to update this as soon as convenient. I'm also happy to make those basic edits and ask user:Jytdog or others to review, as I did 00:14, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Annual Report; New Topline Data 

message: Sept. 6, 2016 - I do not understand this "Talk" section or how it might relate to improvement of the master document on Kaiser Permanente - wkipedia; that  is missing all of the
following:
1. in 1997 after budget shortfalls related to the Balanced Budget Act, the Permanente physicians staged a coup in Oakland where they presented the Permanente Federation as the new, central MD organization with an MD to sit permanently near (same floor of the Ordway Building) the KP charities CEO, created the Kaiser Permanente Partnership Group (KPPG) with Dr. Crosson as the lead "co-chair" that met monthly for ten years under Dr. Crosson and told the public, charity boards - Plan and Hospitals - what to do;  as Dr. Crosson dictated for the KP Oral History at the Bancroft Library, the charity Boards followed the KPPG advice "99 %";
2. The purpose of the physicians demanding more control is that since 1960 in the KP Medical Service Agreement - copy in Library of Congress - Article K - there has been a profit
split of 50:50 between the Plan and the MDs which comes out for each of perhaps 6000 partners over $5000 a month in delayed income, and the MDs explained in the Permanente Journal that if the money dipped this created for KP "near death" situations - the clear implication was that if there was no massive MD profit and the partners would quit;
3. This KP Wikipedia article (we are "talk"-ing" about) tells many fibs, e.g. that the MDs are still primarily regional in governance (No) and that they are only "salaried" (No), - the latter "salaried" term misses the whole profit split; that profit split was called in 1956 the "Tahoe Agreement," reflected in every MSA and regional derivatives (Kansas Courthouse), and was updated after the coup to become "Tahoe Two" though "Kaiser" Public Relations has tried to hide or minimize the profit split ever since;
4. Any attempt to "edit" the main KP-Wikipedia document lasts less than 24 hours without explanation - so it is than really just another Public Relations document for
Kaiser Permanente fooling the readers in the first half and then  losing the readers in the second half with minutia about less global contests;  even their the large renal
transplant debacle fine is not mentioned - perhaps $5 million (though Kaiser has many ways to pay such things through shifting charity donations);
5. The Kaiser Health News is the main product of the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) the latter which is closely related - despite protestations - to the Kaiser Permanente three headed organization, e.g. Kim Kaiser was on the KFF Board as trustee and is now on the KP Board (there is always a family member); KHN in Washington, DC has swallowed up many of the best health care reporters who previously would report both sides of real issues;  
6.  The Affordable Care Act - Obamacare - has created a Blue Ribbon Panel called PCORI - Patient Centered Outcome Research Institute - which is
controlled by Kaiser through CEO Joe Selby, MD and Board Member Sharon Levine (both of which are at risk like all current or past MD partners with having their
huge vested retirements withdraw because they are "alienable" or removable if loyalty to KP is ever disputed);  Dr. Selby was with Kaiser for 27 years and Dr. Levine (plus her MD husband Dr. Crosson) for 35 years - of these three only Dr. Levine is still there in the number two position - The Associate Director of The Permanente Medical Group with the Director always being Dr. Mark Robert Pearl.
So, who is the TALK "editor" and how long will this short note last on "TALK"? Even the "save" step can be hard to find.  I do not expect this Talk note to survive 24 hours - so I 
dated it.  I picked "Archive" so it might be read and improve the reputation of Wikipedia to properly inform the public.
Gator, MD  Gator.MD (talk) 04:05, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for writing here!  Please see your Talk page: User talk:Gator.MD. Jytdog (talk) 06:28, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: comments

message: Greetings. Vince from Kaiser Permanente here. Group Health Cooperative is now Kaiser Permanente, and Kaiser Permanente now serves more than 11.3 million members. I would like to update the first two paragraphs of the entry with this simple, factual information, citing articles such as this one:  http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20170213/NEWS/170219979/kaiser-gets-lift-from-group-health-acquisition-solid-2016-earnings 
Would that be OK? Thank you for your consideration. vggolla (talk) 21:35, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't just update the lead, ever. The lead just summarizes the body of the article.  Jytdog (talk) 00:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would Like to Correct to Reflect Our Acquisition of Group Health; OK? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Shouldn’t there be some mention of the acquisition (if that’s the right term) of Group Health?
(I see one earlier mention of doing so here on the Talk page, from 2017, but it didn’t get implemented.) Rob Cranfill (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Group Health acquisition 

message: This is the only entry under "see also" --
"Heather O'Rourke (1975–1988) – child actress who became ill in 1987 and was misdiagnosed by doctors of Kaiser Permanente Hospital. She died on February 1, 1988, and a lawsuit followed shortly thereafter."
Isn't that a little random? Is that the proper use of the "see also" section? 
Maybe it's appropriate. I'm just bringing it up. 
Middleground1 (talk) 19:35, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriate "See also" entry? 

message: The section on controversies concludes with a substantial paragraph about the measures being taken by the firm to address the union's issues. While it does contain some easily-verified statistics, such as the number of individuals involved and the timeframe of negotiations, much of the paragraph is dedicated to promoting Kaiser as making substantial changes very much in favor of the company. The fact that there is no citation but the is a direct link to Kaiser's Labor Management Partnership website leads me to believe at best this is an irresponsible addition and at worst a press release added in bad-faith. In either case until a citation is added I believe everything after the fourth sentence needs to be removed. TenantSea (talk) 01:03, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The section was challenged FOUR years ago. I removed it.  cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 01:32, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Labor Unions Conclusion