Talk:Mythical origins of language

message: I'd like to see an article on this topic, I have a lot of sources, but unfortunately seem to be incapable of organising it into any coherent article. I'd be very grateful of any suggestions. - FrancisTyers 00:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Organisation

message: The Kukis of Manipur, another hill race of Assam, account for the diversity of languages in their tribes by saying, that once on a time the three grandsons of a certain chief were all playing together in the house, when their father bade them catch a rat. But while they were busy hunting the animal, they were suddenly smitten with a confusion of tongues and could not understand each other, so the rat escaped. The eldest of the three sons now spoke the Lamyang language ; the second spoke the Thado language ; and as for the third, some say that he spoke the Waiphie language, but others think it was the Manipur tongue which he spoke. At all events the three lads became the ancestors of three distinct tribes.
From , but not able to be verified yet.
- FrancisTyers 20:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Myths of the Kukis

message: A different explanation of the diversities of language is given by the Kachcha Nagas, a hill tribe of Assam. According to them, at the creation all men were of one race, but they were destined soon afterwards to be broken up into different nations. The king of the men then on earth had a daughter named Sitoylê. She was wondrous fleet of foot, and loved to roam the jungle the livelong day, far from home, thereby causing much anxiety to her parents, who feared lest she should be devoured by wild beasts. One day her father conceived a plan for keeping her at home. He sent for a basket of linseed, and upsetting it on the ground he ordered his daughter to put the seeds back, one by one, into the basket, counting them as she did so. Then thinking that the task he had set her would occupy the maiden the whole day, he withdrew. But by sunset his daughter had counted all the seeds and put them back in the basket, and no sooner had she done so than away she hurried to the jungle. So when her parents returned, they could find no trace of their missing daughter.
After searching for days and days, however, they at last came across a monster python lying gorged in the shade of the trees. All the men being assembled, they attacked the huge reptile with spear and sword. But even as they struck at the snake, their appearance changed, and they found themselves speaking various dialects. The men of the same speech now drew apart from the rest and formed a separate band, and the various bands thus created became the ancestors of the different nations now existing on earth. But what became of the princess, whether she was restored to her sorrowing parents, or whether she had been swallowed by the python, the story does not relate.
From , but not able to be verified yet.
- FrancisTyers 20:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Myths of the Zemi or Kacha/Kachcha Nagas

message: In Australia, one of the indigenous tribes tells the story of ancestral people eating an old person. The tribes that ate the flesh spoke a 'clear' language, but those who ate the internal organs spoke an 'unclear' one.
The Kabyle in Africa recount that people started speaking different languages following an argument between people.
A tribe in Assam tells that languages became confused when three children once chased a rat.
A tribe in the Amazon holds that the god divided peoples, creating disunity (and mutually unintelligible languages) so that they would obey him.
Among Native American languages, the Maidu (California) say that people originally had one language but they began to speak in various ways at a funeral ceremony. The Iroquois believe that the separation of languages resulted from a family quarrel that resulted in the killing of a child.
But the idea that the observed diversity of languages is a curse is not as widespread as we might assume. Many stories around the world simply account for diversity as a natural fact:
In ancient India, the sacred hymn known as the Rig Veda at one point has Vac ('speech') saying that the gods have broken him up and that he possesses many forms.
A people in the Indo-China peninsula speaks of sixty races of people, each with its own language, creeping from a squash.
The Quiché‚ (Guatemala) tell how people lived together speaking one language, until each group chose a god of its own and went off speaking its own language.
The Navajo in the American Southwest have an elaborate creation myth involving, at one point, 'Changing Woman' and the emergence of peoples into the visible world. When they spoke, they were speaking her language. But she also created the neighboring Pueblos, Mexicans and others who began speaking different languages, dispatching them in various directions.
In Islam, the Koran teaches that Adam did not invent names of everything, but was taught them by Allah. The diversity we see is a natural event, a sign of Allah's power. All peoples are able to understand the revelation of the Koran in whatever language it is expressed. 
- FrancisTyers 13:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avenues for further research 

message: Hi.  I inserted the "Duck" story.  I first made a mistake and thought it was a Kutenai tale, but it was actually Salishan, Okanagan I think.  I am just learning Wikipedia, and so need to figure out citations.  It is from "Folk Tales of the Sahaptin and Salishan Tribes", and an online copy of the tale can be found at http://collections.ic.gc.ca/Teit/copy%20of%20book%20a/a.056done.html#Origin%20of%20the%20different%20languages
Blindsay 01:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, thanks for your help :) I added the citation. - FrancisTyers · 02:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Duck story

message: I have passed your request for this article to be part of Wikipedia's Good Articles. This article is in-depth in how people believe language began. It's broad as many beliefs are mentioned, and easy to read. One writing problem was encountered, and I was able to fix it immediately. 
A few suggestions to improve the article to A-status:
* As per WP:LEAD, you should summarize the entire article in the lead.
* It may appear that the article favors the Abrahamic religions' version of how languages began. I recommend listing it in chronological order, oldest belief to newest.
That's about all I can see for the moment. Good luck furthering this article. --LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 19:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, when I started out I really had no idea how to organise the article. Another user came forward and set it up this way, so I left it for the meantime. I will look into re-ordering it, but it might be difficult as some of the myths are difficult to date. - Francis Tyers · 23:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA passed 

message: The tale in Herodotus, Histories of Psamtik's search for the "original" language, surely belongs here: the experiment shows myth developing into proto-science. --Wetman 22:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly, I will see about looking that up. If you have it to hand I would appreciate it if you could add it. Don't feel obliged though... - Francis Tyers · 23:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Herodotus

message: * Frits Staal  "Oriental Ideas on the Origin of Language" . Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 99, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1979), pp. 1-14 doi:10.2307/598944
*Jarold Ramsey "The Bible in Western Indian Mythology". The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 90, No. 358 (Oct. - Dec., 1977), pp. 442-454
* Francis Lee Utley "The Bible of the Folk" California Folklore Quarterly, Vol. 4, No. 1 (Jan., 1945), pp. 1-17
* Stephen D. Peet "American Religions and the Teaching of the Bible". The Old Testament Student, Vol. 7, No. 10 (Jun., 1888), pp. 320-322
* Clarese A. James "Folklore and Fairy Tales". Folklore, Vol. 56, No. 4 (Dec., 1945), pp. 336-341
- Francis Tyers · 14:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Another ref

message: I feel that this article does not reach the broadness GA criteria. 1000's of scholarly sources on this topic and individual mythologies exist, and this article only gives a short lest of examples, with very little discussion of the overall topic. The general comments in the lead also do jnot summarise cited information in the main text, and some paragraphs are completely uncited. The article is also mostly just lists, making it not a disjointed read. I will start a GAR soon, but imo, this article would need a major expansion to retain GA status, as the standards have risen greatly since it was first listed. YobMod 14:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: GA criteria: Broadness, sourcing, writing

message: The quality of references used in this article are just pathetic. 
"A Hindu myth", followed by a text dump of some unreferenced page somebody has googled. This has very little to do with what Wikipedia is trying to achieve. 
Also, what is this:
 PLEASE DO NOT CONVERT REFERENCES WITHOUT DISCUSSING ON TALK PAGE. SEE http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5885 
(cut from html comment in article)
Millions of articles use cite.php without any bother, just what makes this article so special that it cannot possibly use it? Especially seeing that most content isn't properly referenced anyway? --dab (𒁳) 10:34, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: What is the origin of this story? 
I am afraid that there is much fake "Hindu mythology" which was reported on hearsay during the colonial period. See "Elephant on a Turtle".
As long as there is no decent reference for this, it may or may not be such a case. 
Here we seem to have evidence that it was reported in 1891.
The distribution of google hits suggests that the tale was just copied from there as "a Hindu myth" without anyone bothering to check. 
I do not find it in Indological sources. I just find it used as an example thrown in as an aside by authors who do not have any interest in the story itself other than to show that "these myths pop up the world over". 
In other words, this is unsubstantiated as it stands and should be removed pending the presentation of a decent reference. --dab (𒁳) 10:48, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Brahma punishes tree

message: http://www.druidry.org/library/gods-goddesses/ogma-god-speech-language --115.64.47.34 (talk) 02:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Ogma belong in this article? 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Myths of language. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  signed, Rosguill talk 18:17, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Myths of language" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: This page  by  in 2006 with the story of Zeus having taught language to humans before Hermes confusing them and confusing Zeus's direct rule, which culminates in the enthronement of Phoroneus. The source wasn't any good, but the story checks out (see p. 222 of the first edition of Carl Kerenyi's Gods of the Greeks). In 2012,  , supposedly gods of ingenuity, as having taught language to humans. It was one of only two edits this accounts ever did to the main domain. In 2017, John C. Maher released his book Multilingualism: a very short introduction, which in p. 20 cites Philarios and Philarion, although without any references. In the same year, an IP editor  that no mythological dictionary or encyclopedia confirmed the information. In 2018, another IP editor .
This is clearly fake, and the reference is circular. The only other reference to Philarios and Philarion I can find in a credible source is in p. 181 of an article by Patrícia Vieira. The only other published reference is p. 173 of a 2015 book by Nancy du Tertre on ufology, also not quoting sources and also obviously taken from Wikipedia.
That all being said, I am removing these supposed deities from the page. Leefeniaures audiendi audiat 16:17, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philarios and Philarion 

message: I realise the structure of this article needs rethinking, but another bit of grist for the future mill: Cangjie#Legend_of_character_creation Arlo James Barnes 05:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  mythical invention of hanzi