Talk:Golden Dawn (Greece)/Archive 3

message: "Article (by, from, in) X newspaper"? Please tell me so a I can fix that in "footnotes" section. Mitsos 09:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. If an article appears in a newspaper you should say "article in The Times", not "article by The Times". This is because the article is not written by the newspaper itself, rather it is written by a journalist and then published by the newspaper. --SandyDancer 13:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Not really relevant. --SandyDancer 13:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is grammatically correct? 

message: For one thing, Eleftherotypia is not leftist, Rizospastis is. And for another, the political orientation of the reporting paper is completely irrelevant. It would be relevant if we were discussing what comment Eleftherotypia published about HA, not what "E" published as a reportage about something that happened. I'm putting this here instead of reverting as this article has seen a lot of edit warring recently. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 22:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you - but as you, say - lots of edit warring. I was willing to see Eleftherotypia described as "left-leaning" in the end because Spylab presented that as a compromise, and also because the WP article on the newspaper describes it as such. But as you say, we don't describe the political orientation of newspapers elsewhere so why should we here? Seems to me the insistence of doing so by Mitsos is an attempt to imply the matters of fact they were reporting were somehow untrue due to biased reporting - so in other words, as I originally said, the "left-leaning" bit is a POV qualifier from Mitsos. I have removed it. --SandyDancer 00:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Eleftherotypia is not only Leftist but exceptionally so.  One would have to be quite far to the Left in order to characterize it as simply "Left-leaning".  Eleftherotypia's ideological biases are quite explicit, as is the newspaper's hostility to ideologies outside of the Left.  This explains Leftist extremists' preference for Eleftherotypia when they commit a terrorist act and want to get good publicity for their group to the Greek public.  They don't have to worry about Eleftherotypia condemning their actions.  As far as I know, the Guardian does not have a policy of refusing to denounce Leftist terrorist acts.  The fact that Eleftherotypia is mainstream (i.e. widely circulated and read) is irrelevant in regards to how serious or credible the newspaper itself is.  The Village Voice, for instance, characterized Eleftherotypia as a "left-wing tabloid".  Also, the fact that Eleftherotypia refuses to debate ideological adversaries by refusing to publish their letters (or excluding the parts of substance of their letters in the rare instances when they are published) seems to indicate that political orientation does indeed get in the way the facts are presented by this newspaper. Critias 02:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The political oreintation of Ios, yes. But you are labelling the whole newspaper! --Michalis Famelis (talk) 10:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not me. It was Spylab and SandyDancer that did not want there to be a reference to "Iospess journalist team". You can put it back if you like, however  "left-leaning" has to stay. Mitsos 10:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: And anyway, Eleftherotypia is left-wing. Mitsos 10:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newspaper alignments 

message: I'd to remind you, Michalis, that it was you that proposed to have in the article the political orientation of Ios, in a discussion we had. I see you forget easily. Mitsos 10:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The political oreintation of Ios, yes. But you are labelling the whole newspaper! --Michalis Famelis (talk) 10:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not me. It was Spylab and SandyDancer that did not want there to be a reference to "Iospess journalist team". You can put it back if you like, however  "left-leaning" has to stay. Mitsos 10:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: And anyway, Eleftherotypia is left-wing. Mitsos 10:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copying and translating from mine and Mitsos talk pages

message: I'm proposing the article on Nikolaos Michaloliakos, former leader of Hrisi Avgi, be merged into this one. Three principal (and interlinked) reasons, in descending order of importance (as I see it):
#Duplication - most of what is said in the article about the man is already in the article about the party - and correctly so.
#Verifiability - a lack of third party, reliable sources which meet Wikipedia's standards. Next to nothing in English. See Google search here - as you will see, excluding Wikipedia itself, most of what you get are blogs and self-published websites. There doesn't seem to be anything much we can verify which can be included in a biography. This makes the argument on duplication more compelling - because this article isn't therefore going to grow (he is a figure of the past, so new sources are unlikely to emerge), the situation on that front will not improve.
#Notability - query whether this person is notable enough by himself to justify an article - refer again to Google search here. Do we really think an article would be necessary, even if we did have more to say about him which we could verify (which we don't and won't)?
On the basis of the above, the merger would be extremely easy and neat - we'd need perhaps a small section on Michaloliakos, and the photograph of him could be ported over -  but that would be it. Much of the content is already in this article. --SandyDancer 00:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe not the right place to discuss this, but he is not notable at all as a writer. And as far as Patriotic Alliance is concerned, when talking about such small, fringe parties, even the leader having an article on his own is much. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 10:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know he is not notable as a writer, but he is notable for being the leader of HA. The sources are fine (none is in english but the sources are neutral, except from the HA ones), and there is diferent information about him on his own artice. I totaly oppose. Mitsos 10:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mitsos, you haven't really addressed my points. Adn the argument of "X has an article, so why shouldn't Y?" never, ever, ever works on Wikipedia - and rightly so. In all honesty I didn't expect any other response from you other than to oppose this proposal - you have said your piece, as you are entitled to do. Now please let others comment. --SandyDancer 12:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nikolaos Michaloliakos - Merge Proposal 

message: Ios is not a serious source. For example, Ios claims that HA has links to the Greek Police. There is evidence for the opposite, such as the arrest of 48 members of HA. I have seen also other evidence, and you must see them too . I 'm not going to add this to the artice, but I want you to know the truth. Mitsos 12:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As time goes on, you seem to get more, not less, unreasonable. Mitsos - saying that mainstream media can't be used to reference statements of fact, but that a neo-nazi party's website is OK, is a total non-starter. --SandyDancer 12:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Ios isn't the source. The newspaper is. The newspaper is mainstream. --SandyDancer 16:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Ios claims 

message: Please merge the following per an AfD discussion. Cbrown1023 17:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge per afd 

message: I find it odd that this article about a fringe neo-Nazi party that got 0.07% of the votes cast in the 1996 Greek election (and which supposedly broke up in 2005) has an article that is a lot longer than the articles for the mainstream parties that sit in the current Greek parliament. See List of political parties in Greece. Much of this article was written and edited by an admitted staunch supporter of the party (who has been banned from Wikipedia several times, including for his actions  related to this article). An overwhelming number of the references are from the party itself or close allies (or in Greek language and filtered by the above-mentioned supporter of the party). A lot of the article seems to be free advertising for the party, such as the huge Ideology section, which merely copies and pastes the party's views word-for-word. I haven't seen a similar section in Wikipedia articles about other, much more important, political parties.Spylab 02:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not made changes to the "compromise" on the ideology section suggested by Mitsos. I have made other changes and identified them in detail in edit summaries. In particular I think the claim made by the party leader about it "entering the political mainstream" needed to be taken out. I don't see what purpose it serves other than to make the suggestion that somehow this is true, particularly due to its placement in the article. --SandyDancer 00:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Mitsos' response to my edits (accusing me of "spite") is a breach of WP:AGF, and in any case he doesn't even address my fully explained edit. I am removing the claim about the party being in the political mainstream because, although a quote, is in fact an attempt at editorialising by the back door. I am also going to change "devotees" back to "supporters" as it's simply a more appropriate word. --SandyDancer 20:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article seems to be free publicity for the party

message: In the context used, they were pretty much the definition of weasel words,
the sentence refers later to 'left-wing students'; the attempted link is obvious.
Plus, the newspaper is referred at least four more times in this article without
this words. Why here then?
If anyone seriously disputes the factual accuracy of the newspaper's report, then
do it in a proper manner.
If you plan to revert the edit, please explain first. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Treiskaitetarto (talk • contribs) 05:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I removed the words 'left-leaning' 

message: In the last weeks of January, many changes occured in the Greek nationalist movement. It seems that Patriotic Alliance was disbanded, after Hrisi Avgi broke away from it. In the 2007 march for the anniversary of Imia, Hrisi Avgi was said to be the organiser of the march, and no mention was made to Patriotic Alliance. The same happened in a recent march in Ioannina. This article must be edited. Hrisi Avgi sources:      Indymedia source:  Mitsos 21:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Up until now you - and the sources you've quoted - have said that Hrisi Avgi has been disbanded? --SandyDancer 02:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hrisi Avgi is re-startirting its activities

message: It says: "Hrisi Avgi ran in the 1994 European Parliament election, gaining 7.264 votes nationwide, 0.11% of the votes cast." what those 7.264 means, I belive it is "7 264" and not (oviesely) "7 point 264". Correct? Growner 06:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that we have a US vs. EU misunderstanding here. "One Thousand Three Hundred Five and 3/4" to the US is: 1,305.75  to the EU it's: 1.305,75  :)  -Kimontalk 12:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The number in 1994 election?

message: Here users are encouraged to say their opinion about the section that describes the party's ideology, and keeps geting removed by Spylab. Mitsos 12:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideology section 

message: Maybe Chrysy Avyi is the correct name in greeklish, however I wonder if the page could be moved to GOLDEN DAWN, which makes more sense to than both greeklish names. Any opinions? Mitsos 15:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's commonly known in English by that translation. The transliterated Greek form is fine (although, following our usual ELOT norms, I'd preferred "Chrysi Avgi"). Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page name 

message: Added a picture of Michaloliakos, with the explanation that he considers himself to be a White person and also added links to the EYP payslip and the aledged outing of several GA members as closeted homosexuals.Xenovatis (talk) 15:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in your "source" we see a "top secret" ineligence document on an anarchist website (!!!!!!!!), which says that Michaloliakos is an EYP agent. Below there are various accusations against him (gay, half-Turk) all in highly offensive language. I do not consider this a source. Here H.A. claims that a trial took place and the jury decided that the document is fake. About the picture, Michaloliakos is white, despite what you or any anarchist say. Mitsos (talk) 18:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if the nazis claim it is fake that should be included as well not the source removed. I never commented on him being white or homosexual or otherwise. I merely posted a picture and added the explanation that he considers himself white all of which is factually correct and per WP requirements. I also didn't claim that all golden dawn nazis are homosexuals but again added a link to statements claiming that they are, which is again according to WP rules. Also you will not revert the lead again untill you have some sources backing your claim that GA approached 1%.Xenovatis (talk) 19:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added picture, links 

message: I suggest that the term "allegations" be removed from the main article paragraph title in view of recent video and audio recordings proving without the shadow of a doubt that the forces of political repression in Greece tolerate if not openly endorse joint action with HA members during repression action targeted mainly against the Greek Left. I further suggest visitors are directed to the relevant YouTube links of said videos and the title be re-written to that aim, perhaps by changing it to proof of clientelist policies and links with the Greek police State.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.83.30.208 (talk) 00:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  HA links to EL.AS. 

message: What about the allegations that he was/is a member? Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 08:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Epaminondas Korkoneas]]

message: the source that you have that "prooves" that chrysi avgi has connections with the political party laos is totaly subjective . the source is from a Fyromian ( which fights everything that is in support of greece-because of the name dispute) site that does not refer any proof and just refer their opinion about chrysi avyi. furthermore the article has missunderstanding results because it points in the beginning that xrysi avyi has connections with laos  and at the end of the article points that chrisi avyi is against laos and other right political parties.
chrisi avyi many times has accused laos and it never support it, thus it has no relation and it is not connected with it, as many times mihaliolakos( the president of chrysi avyi)  has claim.here is an article ( in greek ) that accuse laos and their president giorgos karantzaferies for helping the gypsies in greece.
http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/%CF%84%CE%BF-%CE%BB%CE%B1-%CE%BF-%CF%83-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF-%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B5%CF%85%CF%81%CE%BF-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B9%CE%B3%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%89%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%B5/
for the above reasons i think that the opinion in the article  that these two political parties are in connection with should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.141.31 (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  connection chrysi avgi with laos 

message: The article says "Chrysi Avyi has only reached as high as 0.5% of the vote in a national election," but at  Nikos Raptis says that they "have managed to enter in the Greek parliament as an acceptable political party with a percentage of 3 to 4 % of the votes in the parliamentary elections." Is he wrong? - Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Degree of electoral success 

message: I noticed IndyMedia sites being cited as sources in this article.  I was rather under the impression that IndyMedia was not considered a reliable source.  Does anyone know if I might be mistaken about that, or what? KevinOKeeffe (talk) 21:05, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not considered a reliable source by whom, and why!? Any source is unreliable to some extent, especially so when dealing with political issues, but I don't think any source can be dismissed as unreliable a priori! 82.119.193.179 (talk) 09:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  IndyMedia as a source? 

message: I think both "Chrysi Avyi" and "Khrysē Aygē" are totally non-standard romanizations. The "correct" Modern Greek romanization according to the ISO 843 international standard is "Chrysī Augī". The customary informal romanization used in Greece would be "Hrysi Avgi", and the customary Classical Greek romanization would be "Chrysē Augē". 82.119.193.179 (talk) 09:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanization