Talk:Wushu (term)

message: Hello, all.  New to the game.  I've been lurking for a while in areas that interest me, and have found that there's a fair amount of wrangling going on re: Kung Fu versus Wushu, etc.  I would not presume to just start editing, but I thought instead to join in here in order to clarify a few points.
First, Kung Fu (more properly, Kung Fu Wu Su) and Wushu are not the same thing, and, therefore, a merging of these topics areas would be in error.  Kung Fu Wu Su translates to "the disciplined techniques of the arts martial" - a reference to both armed and unarmed combat, strategy, the movements of a single man, or an entire force.  Contemporary Wushu is a performance art that teaches technique, but not application.  As Ai Ping Sifu -- a 3 time World Wushu Champion -- would say, "I do not teach the 'chi' ('ki', J.; 'prana', I.).
Secondly, the reference to martial technique as 'Kung Fu' was a misinterpretation on the part of Christian missionaries.  When these individuals saw people practicing Tai Ch'i and Chi Kung in the parks, they asked, "What is that?" and the reply came, "Hard work." -- the response was intended as a joke, but it's subtlety was lost and, hence, the nominclature was born.
Also, all due respect to Kennethtennyson -- he speaks of the legend of Bodhidharma and the origin of hand-to-hand combat in India, both.  These two topics are intertwined...  Martial arts as a discipline was likely first codified under Hu'ang Ti, the Yellow Emperor, and this was, again, likely, the Mongolian Wrestling known as Shan Sou (Three Throws) and what is now referred to as Spring Leg or Muslim Kung Fu Wu Su -- the art of the guards of the Forbidden City.
The Shaolin Temple was ordered constructed in 496.  Records (specifically, 'The Lives of Venerable Saints' scroll) show that Bodhidharma arrived in the North around 490.  It is likely he gained entrance into the Temple as a teacher around 480.  
Shaolin was a refuge for brigands and former military, as well as a place of worship.  It is likely that what Bodhidharma brought to Shaolin was Hatha Yoga (the discipline of breath and body) and an Indian martial art called Kaliripyattu (When The Body Becomes All Eyes -- a reference to the Goddess Kali), as well as his particular form of Buddhist practice (Ch'an, C.; Zen, J.).  The Muscle Changing Classic attributed to Bodhidharma is clearly a dynamic version of Yoga asana (postures), and the Marrow Washing Classic derives, also quite clearly, from Kriya Yoga practice.  The 18 Lohan Ch'uan (18 Hands of the Enlightened Ones) is likely a derivative of Kaliripyattu, if not a foundation form.  Kaliripyattu has its roots in Yoga.
Finally, all this confusion over soft arts, hard arts, animal forms, martial forms...  There is no difference between hard/soft/internal/external, as is professed in the West.  All arts, traditionally taught, start hard and end soft; start external and end internal...this is a gauge of progress and proficiency, not a classification system.  Animal and Nature styles are generally Taoist in origin.  Combat styles (like Chin N'a) have a specific application/intention (e.g., close quarters).  Displine techniques (Iron Robe, Iron Fist, Copper Palm, etc.) also have a specific intention.
Just my 2 cents...
mjformica 0830 EST 05 Dec 2005
I see that a lot of updates have been made to this article, which is always good. However, it seems that a lot of the newest additions would fit better in Chinese martial arts. Right now we have a general history and explanation of styles in both Chinese martial arts and wushu that look very similar to each other. This kind of duplication should be avoided.
As mentioned before, the idea of this article has been that it would explain the term wushu and how it's being used in various contexts, and that we would put the information on Chinese martial arts in its separate article. We have also been planning on separating contemporary wushu from this article, but have been too lazy.
This has been the general idea for a while, and following this I think much of the newly added information should be moved from here and merged with Chinese martial arts. If you do not agree, please do say so.
Another thing: how can we make it more clear that the main information on Chinese martial arts is placed in its own article? This could be good to clarify in the kung fu article as well.
-Wintran 11:08, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wushu]] vs [[Chinese martial arts]]

message: Hello, I am a martial arts student studying Shaolin (K/G)ung fu, and I have come into contact with a number of Wushu and traditional Kung-fu students. Just to complicate the issues you underlined above, there is a bit of a debate in the martial arts community over if wushu should be grouped with traditional fighting styles. It seems to be a sport first, that has martial roots, where the main focus isn't fighting proficiency. This is the kind of topic you bring up in the martial arts world if you are itching to start an debate. Keeping them as seperate articles is probably a good idea, but with cross linking and some sort of statement on how they differ.
tiggerthemad 04:45, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I think the wushu article should be as neutral as possible in this subject and explain the many ways this term is used today. Thus it should not take for granted that people want to directly associate wushu with contemporary wushu, as the latter could be considered more of a style or system within wushu (as is Shaolinquan, which has its separate article). Feel free to move the current section about contemporary wushu into either contemporary wushu or modern wushu. / Wintran 10:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Contemporary wushu

message: On Chinese language, Wushu(武术) = martial arts = kung Fu, or Wushu Special Chinese martial arts--Shizhao 15:55, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wushu=martial arts 

message: From my understanding the term Wushu 武術 refers to any martial art, although usually implying Chinese in origin since it is a Chinese word. Sometime in the mid 1900's, in a surge of nationalism, the nationalist Chinese government decided to call it Guoshu 國術, meaning national/country art. When the communists took over mainland china, the term was reverted back to wushu. The old nationalist government fled to Taiwan, where the term Guoshu is still widely used. 
It seems that in the US, wushu implies contemporary while gongfu implies traditional. However, this distinction seems to only be a pecularity of american popular culture. While training in taiwan, the terms wushu/guoshu were used interchangeably and implied the traditional martial arts, not contemporary. Instead, the terms chuantong, xiandai, or xin 新(new) had to be used to denote contemporary since very few people practice contemporary in taiwan. 
I don't know that I've heard gongfu used to denote martial arts in Chinese, but I have heard the phrase "da gongfu", used to mean practice martial arts, used quite frequently. which is strange because people don't understand you when you just say gongfu. hmmmm.
The use of the term "wushu" in the U.S. to refer to some contemporary styles of mainland martial arts probably stems from the current fad for something that I regard as a kind of "performance art" in China, the kind of martial arts that seems to be designed for operatic productions, etc.  Many people in the U.S. had never heard the term "wushu" until they saw the lustrous silken garments, the high production values, etc., etc., and that kind of performance was described as "wu shu."  The classical meaning of wu shu is broad enough to include all martial arts, but, in practice, books in Chinese about wu shu tend to confine themselves to the martial arts known in China before there was much cross-cultural transmission of fighting arts.  
The term "gongfu", as used in Taiwan, is not generally regarded as a formally correct term with a strict definition.  It gets used casually in many different senses, but I suspect that if someone ever tried to pin a speaker down on just what s/he meant by gongfu, an alternate term with a clearer definition would be offered.  "Tade gongfu hen hao," "Ta hen hui da gongfu," "Ta gen mou mou laoshi xue gongful," etc., etc. all seem possible to me. The Guo yu ci dian published in the early years of the Republic, has no definition of "gongfu" that pertains directly to martial arts. Neither does the Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Chinese Language, published around 1970.  
When I was in Taiwan in the 60s and 70s, "gongfu" was used informally, "guoshu" was much more formal, and some people who worked in a store at Ximending that sold martial arts supplies were insulted when I pointed at a white karate outfit and said that I wanted to buy a "guoshu" uniform. If one wanted to be more specific than "gongfu" or "guoshu," one spoke of, e.g., "shaolin quan," "xingyi quan," tanglang quan."  Those were the names of real "things," whereas "gongfu" was much more vague.  P0M 01:32, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  武術=國術 wushu = guoshu

message: Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
Why isn't Bruce Lee mentioned?
:Because, unless Wikipedia exists in the afterlife, Bruce Lee is not a Wikipedian. (Sorry, couldn't resist) Shawnc 13:20, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself! 

message: I just went over this stuff once, in regard to the article on gongfu.  Somebody has copied historical misinformation from one place to the other. Start with "Huang Di". He was not a Zhou ruler.  See Zhou_kings.  Please take a look at the Kung_fu article and its talk page. I'll change things after I give whoever wrote the original stuff a chance to clarify what s/he intended to say.P0M 23:27, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical mistakes 

message: Please post some comments about the categorization of wushu articles at Category talk:Chinese martial arts. Shawnc 03:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wushu categorization

message: (moved to Talk:Kung Fu Shawnc 09:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "gong fu" as a phrase 

message: Inspired by Talk:Chinese martial arts#External links out of hand I find that the same applies to this article, so I'm removing the current external links section. If you don't agree, please object. Wintran 19:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing external links