Talk:Bermuda sloop

message: Is this page about the historical Bermuda sloop or does it include the modern Bermuda rig. There seems to be some confusion....   Egil 23:18 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)
:Agree. I think we need a separate article on Bermuda rig. Andrewa 12:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: ...which I've now done. But the relationship of the bermuda rig to the bermuda sloop still needs to be investigated IMO. Were any bermuda sloops gaff rigged? Andrewa 21:40, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: An email received by the PR department reports that they were gaff rigged, and that Bermuda rigging was introduced later on schooners. --Michael Snow 05:07, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  The triangular sails and raked masts of the Bermuda rig were used on local boats early in the 17th Century, but seems to have been adapted to ocean-going vessels much later. Most Bermuda sloops recorded in pictures at the turn of the 18th/19th Century are gaff rigged, usually with a square topsail, though they are otherwise similar in design to the triangular sailed Bermuda rigged sloops which had certainly appeared by 1830. Two of the images I've added are informative - one is a 17th century woodcut of a Bermudian boat with two triangular sails. The masts seem flimsy, revealing their origin in the Dutch bezaan, a lateen sale whose yard has been fastened to the deck, becoming a mast, but retaining its rake. This clearly demonstrates that the essential part (the image shows no bowsprit or jib) of the Bermuda rig was already being used in vessels large enough to carry two masts by 1671. The other is the oft-reproduced 1831 painting of a three-masted Royal Naval sloop-of-war entering Port Royal, Jamaica, which demonstrates a more-or-less modern form of the Bermuda rig (it has no booms, except that on the aft mast, which are certainly evident in images of gaff-rigged Bermuda sloops). Aodhdubh 07:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: I've removed this statement: Thanks to these qualities, Bermuda sloops could be built with relatively small hulls, making them more manoeuverable and easier to sail in shallow waters (essential in the Caribbean islands). It's bothered me for a while, as it's nonsensical. The Bermudian sloops had, if anything, larger hulls than comparably-sized vessels (broader than Jamaica sloops, deeper than Baltimore clippers). Their small size had nothing to do with the need to sail through shallow waters. Bermuda sits in very deep water, and much of its trade with the West Indies was part of a three point voyage, carrying Turks salt to the American colonies and the (Canadian) Maritimes, and carrying American grain to the West Indies. The ships were small because Bermuda was small, and there was simply no need at the time for large freighters, as there is no need, today, for super tankers. The small size of the vessels probably was useful in shallow Caribbean waters, though the small size of those islands and their cargoes probably were more important in selecting for smaller vessels. In any case, it can be assumed that the requirements of Caribbean sailing had no part in the design of Bermudian ships, optimised as they were for the requirements of Bermudian industry, and rooted in Bermudian traditions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aodhdubh 07:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bermuda Sloops and Caribbean

message: I rearranged parts and reworded quite a bit of the article. This article still seems somewhat muddled, though. It's also very light on citations. Taylolya (talk) 17:16, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Heavy editing needed

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This is not HMS Shamrock, neither , nor . The former was a schooner lost in 1811, and the later was a gun-brig that never visited the West Indies. For more info about this picture see:   Acad Ronin (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Painting

message: When I first happened upon this article, it seemed very narrow in its scope, focussing almost entirely upon historial sailing boats in Bermuda, and ignoring the fact that today the term "Bermuda sloop" is usually taken to mean any yacht or dinghy with a single mast and a fore-and-aft rig with triangular sails.
The word sloop (which is of Dutch origin,sloep, not Bermudan) is normally taken to describe the number of masts and foresails of a yacht; a sloop may thus be distinguished from, say, a cutter, ketch, yawl or schooner. The term "sloop" today does not describe the hull type, or whether it is a seaboat or one that navigates only lakes, rivers and canals, nor does it have a historical association.
I feel that the lead in this page is too long, and anyway should immediately indicate that the terms "Bermuda sloop, Bermuda Rig, & Sloop" have different connotations which should be made clear early on. Arrivisto (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , thank you for initiating this discussion. I take issue with the statement that, "today the term 'Bermuda sloop' is usually taken to mean any yacht or dinghy with a single mast and a fore-and-aft rig with triangular sails." That would be true of the term "Bermuda-rigged sloop", otherwise it's just sloppy speech. This article is properly about a historical class of boat, called the "Bermuda sloop", long before the Bermuda rig became prevalent. I would support the use of a disambiguation line at the top of the page, making the some of the distinctions that you suggest. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 12:28, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , I don't accept your barb of "sloppy speeech"! People do not say "bermuda-rigged sloop", they say "bermuda sloop" (just as people say "gaff ketch", not "gaff-rigged ketch", or "staysail schooner", not "Staysail-rigged schooner". I agree that a disambiguation line at the top of the page would help, but there should also be a short sentence in or near the lede to avoid confusion. When I first saw the page, I couldn't see why it was just about the Bermuda sloop as a historical vessel; and I think a lot of people (not just laymen, but informed boaters too) might have a similar reaction. Arrivisto (talk) 13:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, , for your reply. I apologize for what I see could be taken as a barb. It's hard to base content on what "people say". Instead, we must rely on what reliable sources say. However, I agree that our aim is to clarify, not to enforce linguistic precision. In addition to the DAB line that I put in earlier, I felt that the addition of the word, "historical", in the lede sentence satisfied the intent of what you describe. Does that work for you? Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , I wrote my last comment (above) before I'd realised that you'd already amended the article. In my opinion, your edits are excellent and I am completely satisfied that the issue has been clarified. Many thanks. Arrivisto (talk) 14:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been bothered by this article for a while as it gave the impression that the ocean-going Bermuda merchant and privateering sloops were originally and mostly Bermuda-rigged, which was not the case (see my previous comment above). I have also been bothered by the inclusion of vessels with more than one masts, in the case of naval vessels excused by the designation "sloop-of-war". It is apparent from contemporary sources that Bermudian mariners understood a sloop, Bermudian or otherwise, to have a single mast. Bermudians had a preference for these, though they built many vessels with two or more masts, up to and including the clippers of the 19th Century. The Royal Navy purchased from trade, or contracted for construction, many Bermudian vessels, as is well known, but generally avoided sloops in preference for multi-masted vessels. The most important reason for this was that the sloops required relatively larger and more experienced crews to be handled safely. As the Royal Navy was short of sailors throughout the two decades of war with France that followed the French Revolution, the vessels on the River St. Lawrence and Coast of America and North America and West Indies Station (then the North America Station, which included Bermuda, and the separate Jamaica Station) were generally undermanned with poorly-trained crews as the navy concentrated on ensuring the strength of the crews of its ships-of-the-line in Europe. Bermudians, well-practiced in handling sloops, especially when engaged in privateering, tended to use large crews which could overwhelm the defenders of enemy vessels and be divided to enable the crewing of prize vessels. I digress...the point is that vessels with more than one mast clearly do not belong in this article. There is a separate article on Bermuda rig, but I have long intended to separate some of the material that was in this article into a separate "Shipbuilding in Bermuda" article (and I will create that article when I have time, unless someone else cares to first). The reductions made to this article to narrow its focus to actual sloops is therefore welcome, though some errors have crept in. Bermudians began building ocean-going vessels in the mid-17th Century, despite considerable efforts by the Somers Isles Company to prevent this. Bermuda's initial exports of tobacco (following its official colonisation in 1612, three years after its accidental settlement by the Virginia Company) were very successful, but by the 1620s the industry was running into serious and growing problems: small land area available for cultivation meant more intensive use and diminishing soil quality; Bermuda's tobacco was consequently also of diminishing quality; Virginia's (of which Bermuda had originally been a part) production was increasing, and had vast potential for growth, driving down the price paid for Bermudian tobacco; England was establishing colonies in the West Indies and these were adopting tobacco cultivation as a quick way to achieve returns on investment, further driving down the price paid for Bermudian tobacco. The result of this was that the absentee shareholders (or "Adventurers") of the Somers Isles Company increasingly began to cut their losses by disposing of their landholdings in Bermuda, usually by selling them to the resident managers or tenant farmers. By the 1630s, the tobacco farming in Bermuda was giving way to small family farms that engaged in horticulture and livestock rearing for local subsistence. This was a threat to the tobacco-based profits of the Somers Isles Company and its overseas shareholders and resulted in Bermudians being at odds with the company. As Bermudian food farmers produced excesses, they realised that supplying their excess food to West Indian colonies that had focused on tobacco to the exclusion of subsistence crops was a significant opportunity, but to take advantage of this they needed to get their foodstuffs to the West Indies. The Somers Isles Company was meant to have control over all exports from, as well as imports to, Bermuda, via its periodic "magazine ship", and was unwilling to carry Bermudian crops or cattle to the West Indies. Many Bermudians were already experienced sailors familiar with the west Indies as Bermuda-based privateers (notably of the Earl of Warwick) had hired crew members locally (Bermudians were also said to be heavily involved in West Indian piracy in the 17th Century, but that's another story). Bermudians were also already experienced at building small vessels for use in local waters, which were usually two-masted and fitted with the early form of the Bermuda rig (lacking a boom). They immediately began building ocean-going vessels in order to deliver their foodstuffs, and to seek out other opportunities on the ocean. The Somers Isles company made various attempts to strangle this nascent maritime economy, which led Bermudians to side with the Crown during the Civil War and finally to take their case to the Crown following the Restoration, leading to the revocation of the Somers Isles Company's Royal Charter in 1684 and Bermuda's turning completely from agriculture to a maritime economy. The important details in all of that are that Bermudians likely started building what would become known as Bermuda sloops in the mid-17th Century, that the Bermuda rig, though it does not appear to have been much utilised on ocean-going Bermuda sloops, was being produced and dominant on local boats in Bermuda before the end of the first quarter of the 17th Century, and that starting a history of the Bermuda sloop with the Jamaican sloop is consequently erroneous. Aodhdubh (talk) 22:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bermuda sloop, Bermuda Rig, & Sloop