Talk:Telestial kingdom

message: :The origin of the word "telestial", which does not occur in other contexts, is uncertain, although some claim it means "distant" (since this realm is seen as being further from the seat of God than the other kingdoms), citing the meaning of other words that begin with the Greek prefix "tele-" (such as telephone and television). Another possible source might be the Greek adjective "telestikos", which means "mystical," "consecrational," or "initiatory."
Which "somes" claim it means distant? It should be referenced in the article.
"The origin of the word is uncertain"... Well, I don't know how it can be so: Either Smith said God used that word, or he said "I will call it telestial". Since I'm not Mormon I don't know.
What is certain is that it has zero relation with the greeks.
Did Smith know Greek? Because it's the only possible way the word had any relation with a Greek adjective. Well, if it was God who used the word, then the claim would mean God has his own language derived from Greek... funny. --euyyn 16:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of "telestial"

message: I feel that I must object to the mormon church members voilating the NPOV of the page.  I have attempted on several occasions to add facts to this subject.  They have all been removed by members of the LDS church.  The fact that the information on the subject only address an LDS point of view proves simply that it is in clear voilation of the NPOV.  Allow the posting of non-LDS information to this page and I would support it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewayandthelight (talk • contribs)  19:17, 8 June 2007 
:Thank-you for taking your edits to the talk pages. Facts, verifiability and NPOV are two different things. I would encourage you, again, to read NPOV, as what you are describing does not violate it. People at one time may have thought that the earth was flat, but to say that this was taught or to believe it is not NPOV, but not supported. Spiritual things are always going to be not supported. If you believe Jesus was the Christ, you have four billion other humans who disagree with you. Just because you are in the minority doesn't make you wrong or right. It means you have a different opinion than someone else. That is very different than NPOV. 
:That said here are some issues with the "facts" that you added to this specific article. I will not spam all the other pages with similar comments as you have done, as it is unnecessary. 
:Let's start here. You wrote in this entry:
:*"All of the information on this page is based on supposition and belief. As I do not wish to suppress others writings, I will simply present contrasting information. This page is constantly over written by Storm Rider (talk). Please help this gentleman to know that suppression of information will not be tolerated.
:This is not 1 - relevant to this article. 2 - is not the appropriate place to have this discussion 3 - Any long-term wikipedia editor would have doen the same based on your additions, as they were considered vandalism, not relevant to the specific article and unsourced. 
:*"The United States Government to be overthrown in a few years" 
:This has no relvence to this page. What does this prophecy have to do with the Telestial kingdom. In fact, there is a complete page of Prophecies of Joseph Smith, Jr. that includes this one. 
:*"How can we test a person like Joseph Smith who claims to be a prophet?"
:This introduces opinion, and again, is irrelevant to "Telestial Kingdom" the subject of the article. Wikipedia doesn't make conclusions on controversial topics, it does not lead the reader. It states what others have said on teh topic. Whether or not Joseph SMith was a prophet or not does not affect that Mormonism teaches of the "Telestial Kingdom." It is already history, it was already taught. It is irrelevant. Furthermore, it is vandalism to add this material to multiple pages. 
:*"Joseph Smith's false prophecies in the name of the Lord constitute one of the single greatest objections to his claim to be a latter-day prophet of God." 
:That is your opinion, and an opinion held by many. However, others think differently. Wikipedia policy is not to include opinion or origional research - much of what you introduced. Cite it and stick it where it needs to go. An article on Telestial Kingdom is not the place for this discussion. 
:Is this helping you at all? -Visorstuff 21:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thewayandthelight, I've reviwed your edit history, and I stand by my statements above, and it looks as though I'm supported by at least one other editor, who has been around for a couple years. Sethie - welcome to the article, and hopefully mentoring Thewayandthelight. The issue is that an article on the Telestial Kingdom should talk about the telestial kingdom, not about Joseph Smith as a prophet or a charleton (other than him as the teacher of the doctrine). It shouldn't talk about the united states being destroyed or about cockroaches. It should talk about the telestial kingdom. How can I be any clearer. You will always get reverted if you introduce irrelevatn information to articles. -Visorstuff 22:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I think that it should be presented in this article that Emanuel Swedenborg first stated this concept in his book entitled Heaven and Hell.  Though it can not be proven or disproven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it seems that this book and not a 'vision' was the influence that caused the three degree of glory or kingdoms to be adopted by Joseph Smith for the religion that he created.  Mr. Miller presents a compling arguement in the following article: 
I would appreciate all opinions.
Thewayandthelight 22:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the idea of three heavens, if introduced as part of the article, should be attributed to Jewish culture, Jesus, Paul, Irenaeus, Tertullian,  Eusebius, Hippolytus, Imanuel Swedenborg, Joseph Smith and even Gordon B. Hinckley. The term "celestial kingdom" should be attributed to Swedenborg. The rest of the paper is presented as theory. -Visorstuff 23:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What you need Theway is a source which makes the connection. When Sethie reads, "t seems that this book and not a 'vision' was the influence that caused the three degree of glory or kingdoms to be adopted by Joseph Smith for the religion that he created." it really sounds to him like you are drawing conclusions and wanting to give voice to them here. That is not allowed per per WP:NOR and WP:SOAP.Sethie 00:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to article 

message: The following article shows a compare/contrast opinion on this subject.  Could you review and see if you think that it is conclusive enough to represent my opinion on this matter? Thewayandthelight 22:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: From Sethie's talk page

message: This page, the Celestial Kingdom page, the Terrestrial Kingdom page, and the Degrees of Glory page should all be merged.  Even with them all combined, it wouldn't be that long of an article.  There is a lot of duplication of facts between the four articles.Descartes1979 (talk) 04:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge