Talk:Carolina bays

message: The following citation from the section entitled "Age" needs to be revised:
"During glacial periods when sea level was 3000 meters below present, the water table would have been below the bottom of the vast majority of the bays."
Three thousand meters is 9842.5 feet.  I really don't believe that the Atlantic Ocean dropped that much during the last glacial period.
Jbaker314 00:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sea Level Changes 

message: The paragraph beginning "The cometary theory" is incorrect. It conflates informed opinion from the 1940s with the recent Laurentide cometary impact given in Firestone et. al. PNAS vol 104 # 41, p. 16016 ff. 
This gives the 12,900 date, but does not suggest that the Bays are the result of that event. Rather, they state that the areas they sampled contain remains from the 12,900 event, which would be expected if the Bays were pre-existing features. They give no discussion of the geology which could suggest a creation date for the Bays sampled.
Would someone restore the previous version of the paragraph, which gave a slightly different date, and then add a paragraph saying something to the effect that the presumed impact in 12,900 left evidence in several Bays, but that there was no evidence that it created them. And reference the Firestone paper, which is open access.
Thank you.
John Roth  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.23.85.122 (talk) 18:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two separate issues. One is the age of the bays and the second is their origin. That they are over a 100,000 years old does not preclude them from being of some sort of impact origin. It just means they are not connected with the alleged terminal Pleistocene event.Paul H. (talk) 04:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carolina Bays Comet impact 

message: One current paragraph reads:
 It has been argued that large areas of white sand are due to an immense amount of heat baking the iron, SiO2Fe -> SiO2 + Fe. According to this argument, "baking" of the sand by the impacts literally "burns" the iron straight out and redeposits it into the sand. Instead of being a set of a compound, you have pure sand and iron, which go to FeO later as iron oxide. It is argued that the iron is redeposited as magnetic iron oxides in undisturbed sand dunes near all the Carolina Bays. 
The above argument for the "white sand" being evidence of an impact the result is a completely scientifically bankrupt one, which comes from Firestone's book. The idea that iron can be either burnt or baked out of sand and redeposited by high temperatures is physically impossible. What will happen is that initially high temperatures will bake iron  (oxides) onto the sand and eventually fuse it on the sand at high enough temperatures. Ultimately, if the temperature gets high enough, the sand will melt and the iron will mixed into the glass formed by the melting sand. The "SiO2Fe -> SiO2 + Fe" equation is total nonsense when it comes to what heat does to iron oxides in soils because that just does not happen when sand containing iron is baked.
The fact of the matter is that decent soil science textbook, even decent USDA soil surveys, will demonstrate that the "white sand", which is being discussed above is what is called an E-Horizon from which the iron has been leached out by chemical processes that occur normally in sandy soils. In addition, an examination specific soil surveys will show that the so-called "white sand" occurs throughout the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico coastal plains and is completely unrelated to the distribution of Carolina Bays. The "white sand" should be removed as evidence of impact because it is totally unrelated to any impact processes. I suspect the "white sand" is not mentioned in the PNAS paper because, someone pointed it out to Firestone how silly it is to use it as evidence of an impact. Some web pages to look at are 1. E horizon and 2. Master Horizons.Paul H. (talk) 04:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "White Sand" as Evidence of Impact 

message: On May, 31, 2008, Mr. 24.106.179.86 edited the text of part of the Carolina Bay article to read:
On the basis of 45 OSL dates from and sedimentological analyses of rims of Carolina Bays in Georgia and South Carolina, Ivester et al. (GSA poster, 2007) concluded that a single Carolina bay was actively modified between 12,000 to 50,000 BP; 60,000 to 80,000 BP; and 120,000 to 140,000 BP. These data, however, would suggest that the prevailing winds in these paleo-times were perfectly consistent across the ages. In fact, Ivestor proposes that a single bay was modified over a 150K time period, in multiple "generations," each resulting in a rim perfectly concentric with the last. This would require the prevailing winds over this time to have remained almost perfectly constant. 
There are major errors in this paragraph. First, the statement, "In fact, Ivestor proposes that a single bay was modified over a 150K time period, in multiple "generations," each resulting in a rim perfectly concentric with the last." is false. Ivester et al. (2007) states nothing about the "concentric rims" of the Carolina Bays, which he studied, being "perfectly concentric." That the concentric rims of the Carolina Bays examined by Ivester et al. (2007) are "perfectly concentric" is nothing more than a false assumption made by Mr. 24.106.179.86. For example, among the Carolina Bays, whose rims were dated by Ivester et al. (2004, 2007), is Big Bay in Sumter County, South Carolina. A detailed examination of Big Bay's rims using available aerial photography clearly demonstrates that its rims both pinch and swell and truncate each other. They area clearly not "perfectly concentric" as is claimed to be in the above quoted text. If a person was to examine any of the other Carolina Bays examined by Dr. Ivester, they would find that they are also not as "perfectly concentric" is they are claimed to be.
One mystery, which the above text fails to address is how either impacting meteorites, shock waves, or any of the other proposed impact-related mechanisms can explain the nestling of individual Carolina Bays with rims "perfectly concentric with the last." Regardless of whether the rims were formed tens of thousands of years apart as indicated by optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating or minutes / seconds apart, it is highly improbable that either a "train" of meteorite / comet fragments, shock waves, or other impact related phenomena would follow each other in exactly the same path to create the nested rims seen in some Carolina Bays. The highly chaotic and turbulent nature of such a catastrophic impact event and the widely variable aerodynamics of either any impactor fragments, shock waves, or any other impact phenomena would prevent this. In it also unexplained why the paleowind directions derived by Craver and Brooks (1989) from Carolina Bay orientations are virtually identical to those they derived from orientation of relict Late Quaternary parabolic dunes, which Ivester et al. (2004, 2007) argues to be contemporaneous on the basis of OSL dating.
In the same manner that the "perfection" of the nesting of the concentric rims is exaggerated, the proponents of an impact theory for the origin of Carolina Bays falsely exaggerate the "perfection" of orientation of the Carolina Bays. As demonstrated from published research, individual Carolina Bays are not "perfectly aligned" as they are often claim to be. As discussed and illustrated in Johnson (1942), Kacrovowski (1977), and Carver and Brooks (1989), the orientation of the long axes of Carolina Bays varies by 10 to 15 degrees in any one area. Maps, found in Kacrovowski (1977) and Rasmussen et al. (1955), of Carolina Bays show that within Delmarva Peninsula, the long axes of Carolina Bays become, at best, distinctly bimodal with greatly divergent directions and, at worst, completely random and lacking any preferred direction.
Another error in the text quoted above is that paleowind indicators, i.e. relict sand dunes, and paleoclimatic computer models generally indicate that for the southern and central Atlantic coastal plain, the prevailing winds were consistent in direction throughout the last interglacial-glacial-interglacial cycle (Carver and Brooks 1989, Markewich and Markewich 1994). Relict, Quaternary sand dunes, which have been dated to the same time periods as the modification of the Carolina Bays, all exhibit the same orientation. They prove that the prevailing winds blew in relatively the same direction during the periods of times that Ivester et al. (2007) concluded that the Carolina Bays were modified. Thus, the relatively consistent orientation of the long axes of the Carolina Bays within a 10 to 15 degrees range completely fails to invalidate the conclusions of Ivester et al. (2007).
One notable exception to the consistency of prevailing Late Quaternary wind directions according to paleoclimatic models and relict sand dunes is the northern Atlantic coastal plain, i.e. the Delmarva Peninsula. It is revealing that this region where the prevailing winds would have varied greatly through the last interglacial-glacial-interglacial cycle is the same region where the orientation of the long axes of individual Carolina Bays vary significantly from each other.Paul H. (talk) 03:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments on "Perfectly" Concentric Rims 

message: I will remove the text about current/growing credibility of the impact theory. The Impact Field Studies Group's Impact Database lists the Carolina bays as a scientifically-disproven impact theory.  (See the impact database at http://impacts.rajmon.cz/IDdata.html )  The entry in IFSG's Impact Database has the following info:
Several hundred thousand eliptical depressions on coastal plains of eastern USA with long axis oriented mostly NW-SE and diameters ranging from a few hundred meters to 9 km, typically 1-4 km. A large number of hypotheses have been developed to explain their origin including meteorite impacts. Kaczorowski (1977) showed that the morphology of these depressions is too shallow for an impact structure. Seismic data and rocks show no structural disturbance; magnetic anomalies exist near some of the depressions and not at others; the magnetic anomalies are offset from the depressions and if an iron meteorite was responsible for them, the meteorite would have to be buried many hundreds to a couple kilometers deep and would have to be 165-500 m in diameter. Drilling at at least one magnetic anomaly found no iron. No meteorite fragments were ever found. Basal lake sediment C14 ages at various lakes range from 6 ka to 50 ka (references in Kaczorowski, 1977). Luminescence dating by Ivester et al. (2002, 2003, 2004a, and 2004b) indicates that the depressions formed between 70,000 to 120,000 years ago. Numerous websites can be found on the internet discussing the depressions. Extensive literature overview can be found in, e.g., Kaczorowski (1977) and Ross (1987).
References:
* http://www.westga.edu/~aivester/pr01.htm
* Ivester, A. H., Godfrey-Smith, D. I., Brooks, M. J., and Taylor B. E., 2002, Carolina Bays and inland dunes of the South Atlantic Coastal Plain yield new evidence for regional paleoclimate. Geological Society of America Abstracts with Programs. vol. 34, no. 6, p. 273.
* Ivester, A.H., Godfrey-Smith, D. I., Brooks, M. J., and Taylor, B. E., 2003, Concentric sand rims document the evolution of a Carolina bay in the Middle Coastal Plain of South Carolina. Geological Society of America Abstracts with Programs. vol. 35, no. 6, pp. 169.
* Ivester, A. H., Godfrey-Smith, D. I., Brooks, M. J., and Taylor B. E., 2004a, The timing of Carolina Bay and inland activity on the Atlantic coastal plain of Georgia and South Carolina. Geological Society of America Abstracts with Programs. vol. 36, no. 5, p. 69.
* Ivester, A. H., Godfrey-Smith, D. I., Brooks, M. J., and Taylor B. E., 2004b, Chronology of Carolina bay sand rims and inland dunes on the Atlantic Coastal Plain, USA. The 3rd New World Luminescence Dating Workshop. July 4 - 7, 2004, Department of Earth Science, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, p. 23.
* May, James H., and Warne, Andrews G., 1999, Hydrogeologic and Chemical Factors Required for the Development of Carolina Bays Along the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico Coastal Plain, USA. Environmental Engineering and Geoscience. vol. 5, no. 3, pp. 261-270.
* Kaczorowski R. T. (1977) The Carolina Bays: A Comparison with Modern Oriented Lakes. Technical Report 13-CRD, pp. 124. Coastal Research Director, Department of Geology, University of South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina.
* Ross T. E. (1987) A comprehensive bibliography of the Carolina Bays literature. The Journal of the Elisha Mitchell Scientific Society 103(1):28-42. http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cbaybib.html  
§
While both primary and secondary impact events are easily dismissed due to many factors reviewed above, a recent proposal implicating a distal ejecta blanket of fluidized pulverized rock (sand) is not constrained by the physics of "impact". --Cintos (talk) 16:15, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Contrary to the Cintos, who is the primary person advocating this idea, his claim that a "distal ejecta blanket of fluidized pulverized rock (sand) is not constrained by the physics of "impact"." is completely false. In fact what is currently known about impact dynamics completely discredits his ideas about the sediments and pedogenic biomantle in which the Carolina Bays have developed being of impact origin. In fact, the published research about the soils and geology of the surficial sediments in which the Carolina Bays are developed only discredits any ideas that they are a blanket of impact ejecta. In addition, the "The Saginaw Impact Manifold," the alleged source of this imaginary ejecta blanket is a completely fictional impact crater. What what I have found, there is a complete lack of any credible support among Earth scientists and astronomers, who are experts in impact dynamics and structures, for Cintos' ideas. If anything, such ideas are regarded to be fringe theories being promoted by only a few people. Given that Young Earth creationists (YEC) have published abstracts of their YEC research in the transactions of Geological Society of America (GSA) meetings, his GSA abstracts are meaningless as validation of his ideas.  Paul H. (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  debunking of impact theory 

message: has anyone worked on the relationship and obvious similarity of the carolina bays to aligned lakes in northern coastal alaska? i've often wondered about this both geomorphically and from a sociology of science perspective.  compare for example the bays to a brief look using google earth at lat 75.5 lon -152.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmchaffie (talk • contribs) 13:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Melosh 2011, Planetary Surface Processes, Cambridge University Press, p. 462. characterizes the Carolina Bays as thermokarst or thaw lakes that are often aligned with the prevailing wind.  There is a comparison of the aligned lakes in Alaska and the Carolina Bays in the following web page: Interpreting Carolina Bays as Glacier Ice impacts.  The thermokarst lakes are not elliptical, they do not have raised rims and they are not aligned to radiate from a common point.  The termokarst hypothesis does not explain why the Carolina Bays on the east coast and the bays found in the Midwestern states (Nebraska and Kansas) all radiate from the Great Lakes region.   The elliptical bays can be interpreted as conic sections of slanted conical cavities created by oblique impacts on unconsolidated ground which became shallower through viscous relaxation. Sciencebookworm (talk) 15:05, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  carolina bays and northern alaska aligned lakes 

message: I've formatted some bare url links using ref tags. The bulk of the article uses simple Harvard referencing - so perhaps I should redo. However, it seems the refs could be redone with either ref tags or the rather cumbersome sfn format for greater ease of use. Thoughts? Vsmith (talk) 15:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference format 

message: Shouldn't the article be "Carolina bay" instead of "Carolina Bay?"  The latter makes it sound more like a place name. 68.156.95.34 (talk) 07:46, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup -- done. Vsmith (talk) 13:40, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalizing 

message: See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tatelyle. Doug Weller talk 09:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tatelyle is Ralph Ellis 

message: — Assignment last updated by Environment4992 (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Wetland Science and Management 2023

message: : the orientation of the long axes of Carolina bays systematically rotate northward along the Atlantic Coastal Plain from northern Georgia to northern Virginia; the average trend of the long axes of Carolina Bays varies from N16°W in east-central Georgia to N22°W in southern South Carolina, N39°W in northern South Carolina, N49°W in North Carolina, and N64°W in Virginia. [emph added]
I'd call that shift westward, or counter-clockwise, rather than northward.
—WWoods (talk) 18:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orientation shift? 

message: — Assignment last updated by Humedalez (talk) 14:26, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Wetland Science and Management 2024