Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Macrons (November 2006)

message: First off, let's be civil.  The original post in this thread contains a number of ad hominem attacks. (i.e. Only otaku use macrons, only people who don't know the language use them.)  Those arguments are both untrue and invalid to this argument in general.  
I find entering macrons annoying.  (I prefer using WAAPURO-shiki.) I hate having to look in the little box below to find the macron o and hope that I haven's inadvertantly clicked on the Hungarian double accented o or something. The wikiprogrammers could make out lives a bit easier by giving us a drop down box to choose which language's accent marks we want to use. They also make creating redirects more difficult--seiyū names with macrons require four redirects instead of one. 
However, I also belive in Stare decisis.  This had been decided before. Changing the rules like we change our linnens creates a lot of confusion.  I think that there is a firm and constant standard which stands on a solid historical and linguistic backgrounds.  There's nothing inherently wrong with the current guideline, just a preference in style. We shouldn't make any hasty changes without a good reason. Without a compelling reason to change, it should stay put. --Kunzite 04:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying that it was decided before hides the fact that many of the macron decisions were made quite recently (and contentiously). There was a compelling reason given not to use the macron in all situations, and that was how it hides Wikipedia pages when people use search engines. The issue was never resolved to my satisfaction. I don't wonder where all these voices against the macron were then - it is that many people don't watch this page, but have noticed all of their Japan-related articles being changed over the past month. Dekimasu 05:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That reason doesn't strike me as a powerful one. First, Google does pretty well at finding (for example) "choshu": a few seconds ago, Choshu (i.e. "Chōshū (Redirected from Choshu)") came fourth out of a list of an estimated 90,600 hits. Secondly, even if macron use did confuse search engines I wouldn't be so worried, as I think WP is so well known by now it doesn't need search engines so very much. Thirdly, I don't think that the title or content of an article should be altered to suit search engines unless there's good reason. Incidentally, my own main interest in Japan these days is its photography and the best single work in English I know of about the matter is  The History of Japanese Photography (2003, ), which though published by a university press is not an academic work but yet provides macrons wherever appropriate and also puts people's names in the right order, rather than the WP practice of reversing the names of those born after 1868. -- Hoary 06:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It's certainly true that most of the former don't. But of course WP isn't a news medium. As for the latter, I really don't know. Perhaps you're right. Rather over a century ago, the compositors of that dodgy but justly popular reference work Things Japanese managed to set it up using the Hepburn romanization of the time, complete with macrons wherever needed (and with no exceptions, thus "Tōkyō" etc); I wonder why doing this is so distasteful a full century later. The only newish reference book with lots of romanized Japanese in it that I happen to have with me now is Bocking's A Popular Dictionary of Shinto (sic), which also consistently uses macrons (thus "Shintō", Tōkyō"). The English-language Japan-related book I've bought most recently is Shōmei Tōmatsu: Skin of the Nation: name inverted for some silly reason but macrons retained (other than on the cover of the book and in writing about it, perhaps in order not to alarm librarians and others). -- Hoary 09:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ultimately, this is what I think it comes down to: I consider myself a proper scholar, and I think most of us here on Wikipedia ought to take that attitude. What we do here may be a very enjoyable hobby, but it's not a game. The goal here is to create an accurate, comprehensive, and useful encyclopedia. Mispelling things or misrepresenting them to make it more digestible to the lowest common denominator of Anglophone society is not the goal here. I don't see why there needs to be any difference between a "generalist" text and one that's accurate to the subject presented. While I certainly understand your point, "Julius Caesar" is a poor example, as he's so well known by that Anglicized name in English. Take a look at Æthelred of Mercia, Jan Milíč, Curaçao... editors working in other regional topics seem to have no qualms about spelling things correctly. "Choshu" is as much as word as "Jooleeus Seezar" is. You're simply misspelling it to make it easier to pronounce or easier on your eyes or whatever; it's still wrong. LordAmeth 09:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Wikipedia should have a scholarly attitude in its approach to quality of research and sources, but there is and should be a sharp difference between scholarly and generalist works. Scholars rightly use a different language to communicate amongst themselves. But Wikipedia is here for the masses, scholars included. And no, Chōshū is not a proper spelling because it is not widely used in Japanese. To my knowledge, romaji is not a native or fully naturalized script, whereas diacrits are  are fully part of the script in Central/Easter European languages. If the Japanese were to consistently adopt macrons, I would probably defer. But I doubt they have or will. Setting that aside: Julius Caesar, is an eminently viable comparison: I'm breaking conventional English to closer approximate both the sound and appearance of the original. If that doesn't fly for Romans, why does it fly for Japanese? And why should we not appeal to the lowest common denominator when we have discharged our duty to substance by providing a rigorous romanization at the outset? Your phobia of the LCD is perplexing. While maintaining its standards for quality of research, ought Wikipedia not be accessible, and indeed appealing, to the broadest literate audience? I doubt yielding on the macron issue will lead to our becoming the Springerpedia.--Monocrat 13:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The monobook suggestion is a good idea, and I'll look into it. However, I'm not opposed to macrons in all instances. It seems that the nihongo template pops or could up in most Japan articles, if only to provide the kanji/kana original, so inserting the macronned form there seems reasonable and sufficient from a scholarly perspective. That is what I mean by providing the macronned form at the outset. Reference indicators are annoying, and essential. Macrons are simply not necessary in every instance of a word. Having high standards doesn't mean we have to make things a chore for the uninitiated.--Monocrat 13:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Macrons are simply not necessary in every instance of a word." It may not be your intention, but I interpret this to mean that "it is not necessary in every instance to spell a word correctly". Two quick examples that I often see used incorrectly include "to / too / two" and "there / their / they're". If you do not distinguish them in every instance, it is simply wrong. Same with macrons. That does not mean that spelling mistakes do not happen on Wikipedia. If an editor finds correct spelling "a chore", they are always free to spell it however they wish. As with all spelling mistakes, others will correct it. Bendono 14:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This argument has been played to death and I am still much more against the "macron it because it's right" argument than the "let's macron things" proposal/decision. As has been mentioned ad nauseum, the spelling argument only holds if you view English to have an infinite amount of possible letters. If you want to be consistent and say it has 26 letters, you don't use the macron. ワープロ romanization doesn't result in information loss. Dekimasu 04:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: English does not have 26 letters. English does not even have an alphabet. The most common script employed to write English is a heavily modified version of the Latin script. There are upper and lower case variations of letters. Those alone exceed 26 letters. Historically you will also find thorn, eth, yogh, ash and other letters. Macrons and other diacritics are heavily used in writing Old English. I gave this list before: English words with diacritics. I count a great deal more than 26 letters. The 26-letter English world simply does not exist. Bendono 06:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is populated by words which haven't been fully integrated into the English language. When they are fully integrated they lose their diacritics. Many of the words on the list are just as common without diacritics as with them; when used with diacritics, many of the words on the list are italicized to highlight the fact that they aren't English. My dictionary has 26 sections. Uppercase and lowercase is a shell argument. If you want to call it 52 letters, so be it. A macron is not correct, it is a choice. Dekimasu 07:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I must disagree with your opinion those words are not fully integrated into English. Words are used within a context. When that context is English, those words are just as much English as any other words. Spelling too is a choice. Try this sentence: "To day eye went two too stores and bought to packages of meet witch I will cook to knight." Do you approve of this spelling? Does "correcting" it help you interpret it? Professional, scholarly, academic or not, does this pass here on Wikipedia? And why? This is just as unacceptable for the same reasons as missing macrons. I do not mind people submitting such text. However, I would like the opportunity to fix it. Same with macrons. Bendono 07:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: As Rhialto mentioned, there are many different standards for romanizing Japanese words. Macrons are not required to correctly transliterate Japanese names, although they are required under the current guideline. Jecowa 16:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Language, including spelling, is governed by the conventional usage of its speakers and writers. So, you would be right if there were not numerous standards or if there were one of either: a definitive convention of usage among the Japanese themselves, or in lieu thereof an official ordinance from the Government of Japan for a definitive romanization.  Please point to either of those to establish what is correct. In fact, from the links provided in Hepburn romanization, the Japanese Land and Foreign Ministries seemingly collapse long vowels to single O and U. Anyone know what the Education Ministry says?--Monocrat 16:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you really want an official government ordinance then it would be Kunrei-siki. Notice the differences especially in the t- and s- sounds. Long vowels are distinguished (with a circumflex). Bendono 21:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a lot of different standards one could stick to, and I'd be happy with most of them. But we need to pick a standard and stick to it. I am soooo tired of arguing this. The point is not to push some kind of macronization agenda. The point is to push an agenda of standardization and consistency. Do you have a problem with standardization and consistency? LordAmeth 09:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that response is not targeted directly at me. I think you and I pretty much agree on romanization and macrons. And I fully agree with picking a standard and being consistent. Monocrat asked for "an official ordinance from the Government of Japan" and that would be Kunrei-siki. I am satisfied with Hepburn (which distinguishes between short and long vowels). Bendono 11:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no. I'm sorry. That was not directed at you, that was directed at Jecowa (who I have nothing against personally, for the record). LordAmeth 18:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd never heard of this person by any name or with any spelling. So why are you LOL? One possibility I can think of is the absurdity of (a) bothering with the precision and/or pedantry (if that's how you see it) of using macrons while (b) making the elementary gaffe of putting the name back to front (after all, he's not 力長州 but 長州力). Is this it? -- Hoary 10:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Choshu is a very famous pro-wrestler in Japan. What's funny is that every freaking Japanese person is given a strange macroned name just because some ignorant gaikokujn doesn't know about him/her. Romaji fundamentalism could be really funny sometimes.....  Seriously, if you have no idea about something, just leave its name alone. --61.198.211.5 12:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So what do you have against being funny, then? These things are always negotiable. Wipe 13:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't follow what you're saying at all. Not every freaking Japanese person whose name has 長音 is given a macronned name, strange or otherwise; e.g. I called 十文字美信 plain "Jumonji" as this is how he consistently romanizes his own name. Ignorant gaikokujin though I am, I had nothing to do with the renaming of Riki Chōshū; what makes you think that the person who did it was ignorant of either the man or the pronunciation of 長州? But if what you call "romaji fundamentalism" is "really funny" and has you "LOL", then that's all to the good, is it not? -- Hoary 14:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I know who he is. I am not a fan, but he's on a lot of variety TV shows in Japan. Whether you like it or not, his (stage) name is Chōshū Riki. The macrons correctly reflect how the name is spelled in Japanese. For me, that is the end of the debate and I am satisfied. However, I did not change it. (You can find out who by looking at the history page.) As per the guidelines here, if you feel he is well known outside of Japan in English by another spelling, then you can make that argument and probably get the name changed. I suggest discussing it on the Talk:Riki_Ch%C5%8Dsh%C5%AB page where others familiar with him can decide. Bendono 14:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I thought that macrons couldn't indicate Japanese spelling in cases of "ō" which could represent「おう」or「おお」. Isn't that right? Jecowa 16:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That, in fact, is the only drawback to using macrons, and as other have indicated, those who care about it will be able to figure it out pretty easily. And for the macrons themselves, they conveny the appropriate information to those who care about it, and those who don't will simply ignore them. It's a happy medium. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought that "a happy medium" was why macrons were being used in the article text, but not in the article title, per the brokered agreement that you wrote this spring. Dekimasu 04:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since then, discussion has determined that there is no logical reason to not use them in the titles of articles. As long as proper redirects are created (and in most cases they are), then finding them is not an issue. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I apologize if you didn't like my changes to Riki Choshu articles, but I don't appreciate the intimation that I don't know what I'm talking about. I may not know much about wrestling, but I definitely know that 長州 is "ちょうしゅう" and not "ちょしゅ". Do whatever the hell you want with these wrestling articles; I'm tired of arguing with you people. Just please don't accuse me of not understanding the Japanese language, history, or culture. LordAmeth 09:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary division 1

message: Away for a little while and there it is again. These macron debates are very repetitive and always end the same way. Perhaps at the top of the talk page there should be a link to a "macron FAQ", explaining why we use macros, that yes, your question has been asked before and no, we won't remove them. And apart from all the reasons to use macrons, people should also come to realize that there are a lot of Japan-related articles now, and that changing our romanization style (either to waapuro, non-macronned style, or whatever else) will involve an incredible lot of work. After that is done, there are probably articles we missed, hence still using the style we use now. Net result: no gain whatsoever and loss of consistency. People should be able to put this issue to rest. And I say this as someone who uses a hyphenated waapuro in his private life, so no, I'm not just defending my favourite system. Shinobu 23:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The person who'll write that FAQ deserves a barnstar (or sensu). It won't end the eternal debate but will give it a decent home. Wipe 01:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I started one a little ago. I never made it very far, but if there is interest, then I can try to put at least a rough version up this weekend or next. Bendono 03:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not again...

message: Sorry but permit me to introduce an Extended Hepburn System, a transliteration system of Kana syllabary into Latin alphabet. It is devoid of any diacritical marks but produces good result when applied to the classical Kana script. Please read the following.
::Talk:Romanization of Japanese#An Extended-Hepburn System
:::ja:ノート:ローマ字論#擴張ヘボン式
Kmns tsw 08:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorry but....