Talk:Musical improvisation

message: The article needs to be cleaned up after recent edits and added headings (when it was a section of Improvisation). Notice that under the jazz improv section there is information about classical music. Hyacinth 02:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Its now better. The lead still needs work. Hyacinth 22:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, my edit conflicted with yours. I'll take a look at the differences later and try to reconcile them. Outriggr 23:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed it. Perhaps in the future you could reconcile your edits before making them rather than undoing someone else's work? Hyacinth 23:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will, or likely abort my edits altogether if the other user's change is substantial (I couldn't the extent of your changes, and I was wanting to get off the computer). That's the first time I've encountered this scenario on Wikipedia. I did say I would fix it, and would have, had you not done so already. My original edit may have been an imposition to you, and for that I apologize, but it was not, as you described it in the log, "counterproductive". Peace out. Outriggr 02:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Help:Edit conflict for more information. Hyacinth 02:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I didn't notice a second box with my edit, which this helpfile says will show up. Will look for it next time. Outriggr 02:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I didn't yet realize there had been an edit conflict when I wrote the edit summary, I thought you had actually undone my changes rather than edited over them. Hyacinth 03:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: I'd like to make some edits to the popular music section, namely the pigeonholing of popular improv into the pentatonic scale as is stated in this article.  If anything it's the blues scale that is mostly relied on but saying this alone would be too compact an explanation.  I'm also adding parts about how one of the major tenets of jazz is improvisation.  --Theloniouszen 20:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't say that the blues scale and the pentatonic are a note away from each other (blues scale is 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7 and pentatonic is 1,2,3,5,6).  I think harmonically there is a great distance between the two - the blues scale can be used equally well with major and minor keys and has a certain edge to it from which an entire genre of music has spawned.  The pentatonic scale makes me think of either East Asian music or Duane Allman's introduction to "Jessica".  If you wanted a scale in jazz that is for the most part wholly major, the Mixolydian is a lot more common, becuase the b7 fits in with the stacked chord nature of jazz harmonics.--Theloniouszen 06:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, any scale consisting of 5 notes can be called pentatonic. Pax:Vobiscum 14:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular improvisation 

message: Third paragraph of the section titled "Western Classical Music"
Throughout the Baroque, Classical, and Romantic periods, improvisation was a highly valued skill. J.S. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt, and many other famous composers and musicians were known especially for their improvisational skills. Many classical scores contained sections for improvisation, such as the cadenza in concertos. The preludes to some keyboard suites by Bach and Handel, for example, consisted solely of a progression of chords. The performers used these as the basis for their improvisation.
#4 on the list
http://www.jazclass.aust.com/articles/impro1.htm
Many classical scores contained sections for improvisation. The preludes to keyboard suites by Bach and Handel for example consisted solely of a progression of chords. The performers used these as basis for their improvisation (just like in Jazz). In the scores of to day most of these progressions have been translated into full music notations by various editors.
Clearly, this bit was copied.  The web page indicates that the material is copyrighted.  This section needs a rewrite, or citation.
Thanks very much for showing us this.  This was an older part of the article.  I did not write it. Funny, that I developed that idea later in the article more fully, without remembering its earlier mention, and I had not checked any of the first material for plagiarism.   Sincerely, Chris G. Oct. 12th 68.14.108.62 18:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism? 

message: It seems to me there is an interesting area of improvisation which has been neglected by this article. There are a large number of individuals who pursue what could be called "Personal Improvisation" where the individual creates music on the spot which may derive from one or more idioms, or where the individual creates a new idiom as well as deriving from existing ones. The difference between Personal Improvisation and conventional forms of improvisation such as Jazz and (until the late 19th century) Western classical improvisation is that it doesn't necessarily take direct influence from particular melodies, chord progressions, rhythms or structures of any kind, yet it usually has a familiar sound. The way in which personal improvisation is pursued varies greatly from individual to individual. Some may play in a "new age" style, some may play in a blues or jazz style, some may play in a modern style, some may play in a baroque style, or any combination of any of these styles or a new style. 
One could almost say personal improvisation is "idiomatic free improvisation," in that it doesn't follow any rules, but it has the freedom to IMPORT rules or create new ones. 
Some possible links to articles that support this suggestion:
http://ericbarnhill.wordpress.com/facts-about-improvisation/
William Harris has written a bunch of articles which I think describe "Personal Improvisation" extremely well.
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/classical.improv.html
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/MusicPapers/PersonalMusic.html
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/MusicPapers/baroque.html
This is also a very good point (Chris G.) Oct. 12th.  It sounds like you are talking partly about that classic rock, descending and ascending "I, V, iv" progression that amateur pianists love to play over.  It appears also in that movie The Piano.  It is something, however, which is only just now beginning to be dated, since early this decade.  In a way, I am glad for that--the repetitiveness, and longstandingness of it is overdue for a change, but where we are headed culturally is also uncertain.68.14.108.62 18:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  possible sub-heading article: "Personal Improvisation" 

message: In section 2.1, Current trends, under Western classical music, I find these words:
:There are not yet competitions for this art form, nor is it clear how the different forms will be adjudicated if competitions do arrive.
Wait now. Aren't there competitions in organ improvisation? That topic is noticably lacking from the article, by the way, but at the very least it would falsify the above claim. EldKatt (Talk) 21:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Competitions 

message: This article seems to require expert attention.  A few points:
1)  My own (limited) knowledge tells me Adorno, for example, ought not be cited as a musical scholar.
2)  Much of the article is not cited
3)  The Improvisation in popular music section probably needs to be pared -- the way these things go, it will only grow if not cut down a bitEditor437 (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a matter of interest, why should Adorno not be cited as a "musical scholar"?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Adorno was not a professional music scholar -- he was a philosopher who took a great deal of interest in aesthetics.  He was certainly well-versed in aesthetics, but did not study music per se.  Rather, he used music, etc. to develop his own (very difficult to comprehend) aesthetic theory, which is intimately tied up with his political theory.  One place I where use of Adorno might be problematic, for example, is where he speaks of the "truth content" of Beethoven's music, a term which to my (amateur) mind sounds more like philosophy than music theory.  Perhaps someone versed in music theory can prove me wrong, but I don't think Adorno is a good cite here.Editor437 (talk) 20:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: I just removed a list of uncited, unjustified, unincorporated information that was the only content under the popular music section. This article would be greatly improved by including coverage of the use, meaning, and characteristics of improvisation in popular music. Hyacinth (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing: Popular music

message: ...can be found here: Musical improvisation/sandbox. I've tried to organize it in a chronological fashion, so the fact the classical stuff comes first instead of jazz (which ought to warrant its own article, IMHO) is not because I'm a classical musician. As per the article itself, all I can say is, wow. There must be at least five papers pasted in there. --Blehfu (talk) 05:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've given it a thorough work-over. If nothing else, I think I managed to stuff each paragraph into its own box, and then organize the boxes. Feedback welcome. --Blehfu (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  An effort at reorganization 

message: Could someone get rid of all these  tags? They make the article very hard to read. --↑ɻ⅞θʉɭђɥл₮₴Ṝ 17:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a start. A lot of them were unsubstantiated claims amounting to Original Research, and have been deleted.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: The coverage of the Baroque period seems a bit thin.  Wasn't this the great era of (classical) improvisation?  E.g. Bach improvising on a theme suggested by the King of Prussia.  86.178.80.234 (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. What is there is mostly an instruction manual on how to improvise in this style, rather than an account of historical improvisations. Why don't you go ahead and make a start by adding some of this missing material?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  More needed on Baroque period? 

message: When I look up noodle it shows noodling as a form of musical improvisation but when I click on this page no definition is found. Should that be added to this page since there is a link to it? Maybe something like " Noodling is the annoying thing some musician's do to piss off everybody else in the room" Just kidding, couldn't resist. --Brian Earl Haines (talk) 19:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you meant to say you found no mention of the word "noodling" on this page, rather than no definition of improvisation. Fair enough, the word should probably be (briefly) mentioned somewhere. In all seriousness, the definition you suggest would be perfectly acceptable—provided only that you find a reliable source to back it up.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noodling 

message: Unwikified orphaned stub. References are myspace pages for the ensembles given as examples, not citations. Hyacinth (talk) 04:47, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Instant Composing should redirect to Musical improvisation. --Danmuz (talk) 09:13, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Improvising IS instant composing a lot of the time. It starts the main idea, and then the idea is modified. Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 17:42, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: no objections in a year means it's time for your faithful servant (me) to go ahead and do it. i don't think there's much to merge, really - no sourced material that isn't already covered here. k kisses 09:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge: Instant Composing

message: Isn't it a little disgraceful to refer to music by Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and and Jimi Hendrix as "pop" music forms?
Pop is shorthand for "popular", but "pop rock" and "pop" and "rock" are all different things.
Would it be fine to rename this section as "Popular forms of music" or "Pop and rock" or something more suitable and less misleading?
Thoughts? Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 17:49, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about "disgraceful", but it did seem rather odd. I have therefore been bold and changed the heading. At the same time, I have removed unsourced material dating back a disgracefully long time, and collected some subjects or subcategories together that were scattered randomly through the final part of the article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop rock music 

message: Thunderation! I've been complacently watching this article for a long time now, and it has only just now struck me: is it really the case that improvisation only occurs in "Western" music? I can't believe this is so (especially since I am familiar with improvisational practices in any number of non-Western musics), and so have tagged the article accordingly. Since the large category of "Western" is well covered, I would suggest that corresponding sections on "Eastern" (or "Asian"), "African", and "Australian" traditions be added. Perhaps also "Pacific" or "Polynesian"? What about North/South-American native (i.e., "non-Western") cultures?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree with this comment; it was my first thought when reading this article. I am not a ethno-musicologist, I am a geographer and an amateur musician -- but here are some references from my sketchy reading in this area.  Christopher Small has several chapters and sections on improvisation in two books (Chapter 10 in Music of the Common Tongue: Survival and Celebration in African-American Music, Wesleyan U. Press, 1998 edition;  pp 175 to 180 in Music, Society and Education, Wesleyen U Press, 1996 edition).  Small also discussed the social nature of music in his Musicking: the Meanings of Performing and Listening (Wesleyan U Press, 1998).  Geoliz (talk) 18:31, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I shall have a look at these books. However, with reference to that first title, African-American music is already covered to some degree in this article, in the sections on jazz and popular musics. I hope that the other items may deal with some of the world regions I mentioned last February.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:31, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Globalize