Talk:King Crimson

message: This is an English Fusion band ( circa 1970's), from England, where the english language was developed. Maybe using the form, "the band has" isn't too much to ask for. This simple gramatically correct use of their language could go far in the credibility Wiki deserves. Could it not?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.64.173.104 (talk) 02:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I recommend you read this wikipedia article, which explains why "the band have" is correct British English.--Gorpik (talk) 18:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

text: that doesn't explain it!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.241.206 (talk) 00:22, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subject/ verb disagreement. i.e. "the band have".  

message: This article really needs to be edited for grammar, specifically there are several subject/verb agreement issues throughout the article.
Examples - in the first paragraph:
King Crimson are<<this should be "is" a rock band founded in London, England in 1969. Often categorised as a foundational progressive rock group,[1] the band have <<<has incorporated diverse influences and instrumentation during their history (including jazz and folk music, classical and experimental music, psychedelic rock, hard rock and heavy metal,[2] new wave, gamelan, electronica and drum and bass). They have been influential on many contemporary musical artists and have gained a large cult following, despite garnering little radio or music video airplay.[3]
Though originating in England, King Crimson have <<<has had a mixture of English and American personnel since 1981.
Between 1970 and 1971, King Crimson were<<<was an unstable band, 
Since reforming for the second time (in 1994), King Crimson have<<<has blended
This type of grammatical error is made pretty consistently throughout the article, however, there are exceptions, where subject/verb agreement is correct as in this example:
King Crimson's existence has been characterised by regular periods....
In any case, the entire article should be reviewed for consistency.
Ronb1224 (talk) 19:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Such changes could help. However, English English apparently allows plural verbs for a singular group of persons when the individual members are emphasized.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This has already been discussed before. See British/American Grammar and Subject/ verb disagreement. i.e. "the band have". above.--Gorpik (talk) 09:40, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

text: I agree. I have just made an attempt to improve the wording for that bullet.--Gorpik (talk) 09:39, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs to be edited for grammar 

message: The lede called KC a British band. Since the 1980s, the only new members have been Americans, so it is crude to call the band "British (full stop)". 
The band started c. 1967 in Southwest England and moved to London, before being recognized commercially and artistically in 1969. The members were predominantly from Southwestern England.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:36, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "British"?---Adrien Belew, Tony Levin, Trey Gunn, Pat M., Gavin Harrison

message: There is at least one legitimate grammar issue here, and that is the last bullet point (on Japanese musicians influenced by KC) under "Influence on Other Artists". That point is currently a single run-on sentence that doesn't make sense, especially toward the end. Someone more familiar with this music than myself (I've heard of most of the bands but don't know their work in depth) really should edit that into two or three simpler sentences, with special attention to clarifying the stuff about Boris et al toward the end. 50.72.201.97 (talk) 21:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I have just made an attempt to improve the wording for that bullet.--Gorpik (talk) 09:39, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Last bullet point under Influence on Other Artists

message: It has been mentioned in Sid Smith's book that David Cross was voted out of the band (by 2 to 1 to be annoyingly accurate!) However, the booklet that comes with the boxed 4-CD version of "The Great Deceiver" tells a different story. Apparently, after they played the last gig of the tour at Central Park, NYC, on 1st July 1974, Fripp said to the rest of the band that he had pencilled in another tour of the USA. When he heard this, Cross' heart plummeted and announced then and there that he was quitting the band, Not only was he feeling 'musically isolated', but he was fed up with touring.
Taff Hewitt (talk) 22:33, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: According to WP:PRIMARY, we better stick with Smith's book as a source. I also remember having read that when Cross left the band, Fripp said that "he was the weak spot in my heavy metal band". In any case it looks like all sources agree that Cross and the rest of the band had drifted away from each other, even if the details of the actual breakup vary somewhat.--Gorpik (talk) 09:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  The exact quote from page 61 of the original "Great Deceiver" box set's book is: "The frustrations of touring were getting me down and when yet another USA tour was pencilled in to follow the recording of Red I decided not to go.  The others decided to record the album without me."  From Fripp's 1974 journal entries on page 19, we learn that Wetton thought Cross should go, Bruford thought he should stay, and Fripp "regret[ted] that he must leave".  Later notes on the following page clarify that this vote discussion was held before the Central Park show that night, but that Cross wouldn't be told until later.  Cross's statement doesn't make clear whether he got around to informing anyone of his decision before he was told about this, or even when the next tour was first planned.  Cross being told of the decision as the first actual communication on the topic is consistent with all accounts. Ixat totep (talk) 06:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The departure of David Cross 

message: I've seen their line-ups divided into sections like Mk. 1 and Mk. 3, but it's not clear how the boundaries are determined. For example, the album "Lizard" is attributed to #2, even though the only musician who played on both it and the first album is Fripp. Only two musicians were replaced going from "Lizard" to "Islands", the sole album attributed to #3. How is it determined that Lizard belongs in 2 rather than 3? TGGP (talk) 02:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question. I admit that In the Wake of Poseidon may be attributed to lineup #1 since there was no definite KC formation at the time, but Lizard had one, even if it was short lived.--Gorpik (talk) 18:48, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Instead of trying to work this out ourselves, we should look to reliable sources. What do they suggest as the key changes over time? Bondegezou (talk) 21:07, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, but I don't think the current division in the article is sourced. It strikes me as just a way to divide a long section. Anyway, better look for reliable sources rather than making this up ourselves, for sure.--Gorpik (talk) 14:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Based on what you say, just a mention somewhere that those two line-ups are considered transitional by Fripp, along with the appropriate source, might be enough.--Gorpik (talk) 14:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enumeration of lineups 

message: The Personnel section and timeline have been updated with the news of the new Crimson line-up. However, I am concerned that both section's updates have made presumptions about what instruments everyone will play (e.g., the timeline says Collins will play keys). Apart from Jakszyk being on vocals/guitars (as confirmed on his website), what everyone else is doing is not clear and is not supported by reliable source citations. Most of the presumptions seems likely, but not all of them (Collins/keys). Bondegezou (talk) 22:15, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this is a far fetched shot; nevertheless, once Fripp publishes his new diary entry everything may become clear, so I don't think there is a hurry to straighten things up.--Gorpik (talk) 22:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Personnel

message: Conspicuously absent from the article are any details as to why Belew is conspicuously absent from the new line-up. Belew was keen for King Crimson to play together during the years that Fripp had the band on hiatus. Did he quit? Was he ousted? Was the decision mutual? Joefromrandb (talk) 04:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, Fripp just did not include him in the new lineup. Belew wrote in his FB page that Fripp called to tell him he would not be in the new incarnation of the band. I don't know of any other public details.--Gorpik (talk) 08:59, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that Adrian's article makes note of this. Perhaps it should be mentioned here? (I don't know if Facebook is a reliable source.) I would think the sudden departure of the band' front-man since 1981 is worth a mention, but it's quite possible I'm reading too much into it. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:49, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree much. You don't really need to point out that Belew is not in the next lineup; this is clear for anyone reading it. And, as you say, if you want to know more about Belew's situation, you can just go to his article.--Gorpik (talk) 08:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belew 

message: Due to events surrounding the new band lineup and Adrian Belew's current activity with the Crimson ProjeKCt (plus the status and significance of ProjeKCts in general) I've been making some changes to the band history sections. These are intended to better represent Jakko Jakszyk's journey towards becoming a King Crimson member, the manner in which ProjeKCts inform and support King Crimson music, and the several ways in which that music has been maintained and represented in the past decade. 
This means a more prominent representation of several spinoffs and ProjeKCts, most particularly 21st Century Schizoid Band and the Crimson ProjeKCt. Since 2002, we've had a tribute-band-cum-reformation involving significant former bandmembers who revived old Crimson music and eventually provided the main band with its new frontman; a band with a significant proportion of current and recent members including the longest-serving (and, until last year, current) frontman continuing to perform the '80s and '90s material, with Fripp's blessing; and a situation in which King Crimson is never entirely inactive due to consistent ProjeKCtwork. I think it's now appropriate to integrate ProjeKCtwork and 21CSB history into the main history, so long as it can be done without too many extra complications. I welcome further discussion on this.
Also, I've been reworking the intro paragraph. With the new lineup established, it was time for this paragraph to go back to being a full historical overview and the "new" news to stay at the end of the history section. - Dann Chinn (talk) 13:31, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Towards the 2013 lineup

message: I was reading the discussion above on associated acts, and I was surprised to see that ELP didn't come up at all.  Although ELP and King Crimson did indeed have only one member in common (Lake) and ELP would therefore seemingly not meet the criteria for associated acts, an exception should be made here because ELP was a supergroup and supergroups tend to be rather strongly associated with the groups their members came from.  ELP should therefore be included as an associated act.  Esszet (talk) 22:38, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Had ELP been a parallel group or a spin-off, this could be analysed. But Greg Lake just left KC to join ELP and from that moment on both bands went completely separate ways, so I fail to see why we should make an exception here.--Gorpik (talk) 08:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Associated acts are meant to have at least 2 members in common, although that rule is frequently not applied. I would argue for ELP's inclusion for the different reason that Peter Sinfield, a former member of Crimson, was effectively a 4th member of ELP. He contributed lyrics to ELP on Brain Salad Surgery, Works Volume 1, Works Volume 2 and Love Beach. Bondegezou (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, Sinfield helped Lake with a few lyrics, but saying that he was a fourth member of ELP is overstretching quite a lot. He didn't have a say on what the band did, unlike what happened during his tenure in KC. But OK, I'll admit that a second ex-KC collaborated with ELP.--Gorpik (talk) 08:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're interpreting (and the ‘Associated Acts’ guidelines are using) the term ‘associated acts’ too narrowly.  You (and the guidelines) are using it only to include professional associations when it sounds as though (and it's apparently frequently interpreted to include) strong associations in general.  I would therefore argue that ELP should be included as an associated act because the association between them and KC is rather strong for the reasons listed above.  If you'd like to get the guidelines changed before we add them, we can do that as well. Esszet (talk) 01:32, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What you say about supergroups in your initial comment might be relevant if a link between both bands had been kept, but that was not the case. I have no notice of any collaboration of any kind between KC and ELP after Lake switched bands, apart from Lake himself recording vocals for ITWOP when he was leaving. Then he sure asked his former bandmate Sinfield, already out of KC himself, to help with some lyrics but, once again, there is no indication of Sinfield interacting at all with either Emerson or Palmer; just Lake. This is not a strong association between both bands in my opinion (I'd agree with adding Sinfield as an associated act for Lake, on the other hand, due to their continued association).--Gorpik (talk) 07:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel describing the situation as merely "Sinfield helped Lake with a few lyrics" feels inaccurate. He was the lyricist on multiple ELP songs and also worked directly with Emerson on Love Beach (with the much under-rated "Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman"). Bondegezou (talk) 21:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The association between KC and ELP is much more a popular one than a professional one.  If you're talking about how ELP was a supergroup and you know where the members came from, you'll say something to the effect of: ‘Yeah, Keith Emerson was from The Nice, Greg Lake was from King Crimson…’.  The association would be much weaker if ELP hadn't been a supergroup (e.g. the association between KC and Yes isn't particularly strong just because Bill Bruford was a member of both bands), but because ELP was a supergroup, the association is much stronger than that between other bands who had only one member in common.  That is the basis of the association between ELP and KC. Esszet (talk) 12:49, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I did, a while back, add in a section titled "Supergroup" that covered all their members' associations, but it was removed even though this group definitely meets the definition of supergroup with how many members, who would have fame before/after joining" rotated through. I'd say we restore that, but IDK how to source something like that. Moline1 (talk) 15:50, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I added back in the Supergroup section and added a link to it in the associated acts section. Moline1 (talk) 16:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  ELP as an associated act 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello,
can we agree to throw out "post-progressive" from the genre list? As far as I know, no other source uses this term to describe King Crimson. It's not even an established genre, but a concept that appears in three or four books on progressive rock; no bands are commonly described as post-progressive. I tried removing it myself, but an editor keeps restoring it without addressing my concerns. Chilton (talk) 18:52, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-progressive 

message: The timeline figure is getting very complicated. Trying to show this many different colours is not practical. I cannot make out what's going on, and I know the band's history well.
Most timeline figures on other articles do not go into this degree of detail about who plays precisely what. I suggest a simplification is in order. The text, and other articles, can show the details. The timeline should be clear and you achieve clarity by being simple.
So, how about we drop "backing vocals" entirely; combine drums and "custom percussion"; and combine bass and Chapman Stick? Bondegezou (talk) 11:07, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's perfectly fine for me. KC's dynamics are unlike most other bands, let's not make that even more complicated.--Gorpik (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd like to combine Chapman Stick and Warr Guitar as both are brands/variations of touch guitars.  The distinction is not worth the lack of readability.  And for that matter, the chart gets the point at which Gunn switched from Chapman Stick to Warr Guitar wrong by several years anyway. Ixat totep (talk) 22:31, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

text: I have no recollection of Tony playing "Keyboards, Synthesiser, mellotron" in the 90's incarnation. Removing. Is the same true of Trey playing bass? Did he ever play anything but a "touch-style guitar?"ZildjianLudwig (talk) 18:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

text: Totally agreed. You may make distinctions in the article, or in the list of members, but the timeline graph should be kept simple if we want it to be useful.--Gorpik (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline chaos

message: The lineup chart now appears to show a 2011 King Crimson lineup consisting of Jakszyk, Fripp, and Collins, plus those KC members who appeared on the album as session musicians (Levin and Harrison).  However this is not King Crimson, as is made clear all over the official materials and the DGM web site.  If the chart is tracking the ProjeKcts, then it should also have P6 from 2006.  And arguably "The Crimson ProjeKct".  And should track the different ProjeKct lineups during 97-99.
I propose that if we want a chart of the ProjeKct lineups, that it be put on the ProjeKcts page.  The KC chart should stick with KC proper.  Alternatively, the chart could do what the List of Yes band members timeline does and add color notation for alternative versions of the band (ABWH and Yes Featuring AWR).  But I think that that clutters the chart too much, particularly after the nice simplifications that were recently done.
Ixat totep (talk) 00:20, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed -- should be removed. And thanks for your other edits. Bondegezou (talk) 13:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  2011's "Jakszyk Fripp Collins (A King Crimson ProjeKct)" is not King Crimson 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The photo being used at the top of the page looks blurry and doesn’t show the current lineup of the band. Are there any photos available of the current lineup or of higher quality, and how could I go about replacing the current photo with one of these? SomePersona (talk) 20:09, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The most recent photo on the Commons is this one. It's still blurry, though. To change the current photo, you'll need to change the entry under '| image' in the infobox part of the source to the name of the file you wish to change it to. If you have a better photo that you have the rights to, you can upload it to the Commons under an appropriate licence and it could be used on the article instead. Hope that helps! Ralbegen (talk) 11:21, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Band photo  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I added a new photo to reflect the current lineup (most of it, at least). The old photo was blurry and displayed a lineup from over ten years ago (it said performing in 2003). The drummer was even hidden in the photo. The photo I used has 7 of the 8 current members (doesn't have Jeremy Stacey). SomePersona (talk) 02:32, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  New photo 

message: Apparently Allmusic changed its naming system, so now we need to update all the links. It's also an opportunity to check if the sources support the contents of the article (for example the Discipline link doesn't support it). --Ihaveacatonmydesk (talk) 14:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I updated the links, although I haven't checked if the statements were supported. Cheers. --Ihaveacatonmydesk (talk) 18:37, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  AllMusic links are all dead 

message: there should be some mention of how the band has very strict control of how there image is used (For example; the popular music website Last.fm has a blank image for their albums and band photos "due to
certain legal restrictions imposed on last.fm by King Crimson's Management.". They're also one of the very few popular acts not to have music on streaming services. RF23 (talk) 08:03, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Added info

message: I removed the sentence "The album was no more of a success than the singles and was even disparaged by Keith Moon of the Who in a magazine review.[1]" from Formation because: 1) The source cited contains no reference to Keith Moon nor any quote by Keith Moon, and 2) The substance of the sentence, viz., the lack of success by GG&F releases, was described in the remainder of the paragraph. Count Robert of Paris (talk) 15:39, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Extraneous Sentence and Keith Moon Reference 

message: Re: "Although initially considered a seminal force in progressive rock (a genre originally characterised by lengthy compositions featuring extended instrumental sections)..." Progressive rock did tend to involve lengthy pieces--or tracks--(lengthy, that is, compared to most pop songs, certainly not lengthy at all compared to most classical pieces or jazz improvisations) "with extended instrumental sections", but so did most of the music of most rock groups in the late sixties and early seventies who weren't trying to have top-40 hits (and quite a few who were). If this were all it took to be progressive, then Derek and the Dominos Live and the Allman Brothers's "Moutain Jam" would be progressive. No, progressive rock was characterized, rather, by harmonic and rhythmic complexity (often involving odd meters), instrumental virtuosity (especially the flaunting of which), and references to classical music (especially twentieth-century classical music). That might be a bit much to sandwich into a parenthetical aside, but I question why we should be attempting to define a genre within a parenthetical aside in the first place--such that I am deleting it. TheScotch (talk) 18:37, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Progressive rock definition 

message: If I read Tony Levin's tour diary correctly, King Crimson is no more. Of course, there is no official confirmation on this, but I suspect that there is some truth. Tuxman (talk) 17:58, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be that the current incarnation of KC has run its course but in the absence of any official statement, it's speculative. Then again, it would be naive and foolish to dismiss the strong indications from people such as Sid Smith who in a tweet from 8th December, announces in his view that the last live gig has just taken place. Some perspective from Robert Fripp's diary entry of the 23rd November. Going by this, it appears that major changes are afoot, such as an end to KC as a touring entity. Stroness (talk) 19:14, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added some text using three reliable secondary sources. Bondegezou (talk) 10:25, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Fripp has been known to say such things, only to reform the band shortly afterwards. He isn't the most reliable source on whether his career is over, rather hilariously. Daemonspudguy (talk) 04:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impending dissolution of King Crimson? 

message: King Crimson has many associated acts and many members joined these bands, which also means they can be considered a Supergroup. I have added a list of the members that have moved through the ranks as well as the bands they are associated with. I've also added Many others to the associated acts section that links to this new section. Moline1 (talk) 17:55, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're going to need a reliable source for that. The section you added has no sources whatsoever, and is original research. You also have no explanation, sourced or otherwise, for why King Crimson would be considered a supergroup retroactively because of the groups later members took part in after they departed the group. Much of the section you added is redundant to the history section of the article. Looking at your talk page, it seems you have been notified or warned multiple times by other users for adding uncited original research essays to articles. I recommend you read the guidelines at WP:NOTESSAY, WP:OR, WP:CS, and WP:NPOV.  Doc StrangeMailboxLogbook 19:50, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Associated Acts/Supergroup 

message: Not sure what source could be usable, but the IMDB page is here. Mapsax (talk) 23:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  2022 documentary by [[Toby Amies]] 

message: A ticket announcement, on April 3, 2024, in the NY Post ("King Crimson announces 2024 ‘BEAT Tour’ with Steve Vai.")  See...
https://nypost.com/2024/04/03/entertainment/king-crimson-with-steve-vai-tour-2024-where-to-buy-tickets/
... would seem to indicate some type of reformation.
According to the NY Post, the *new* — or at-least heavily modified — lineup ("sans Fripp and Bruford") is about to tour.  The new lineup is said to incorporate guitarist Steve Vai and drummer Danny Carey.
Personally, King Crimson, "sans Fripp", is not King Crimson.  I realize that, in this day and age, "branding" rights of once great products, services, or bands is often transferred to the highest bidder, specifically designed to mislead the consumer.
In any case, I came to Wikipedia hoping to get some answers.  But alas, none are to be found.  Sigh.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:6FC0:0:3CBB:DA26:2B5B:D22E (talk) 12:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reincarnation - 2024 lineup?