Talk:Landless Workers' Movement

message: Added a section concerning the practice of mistica within the MST. This has been done with special regard to the influence of liberation theology, as well as drawing on contemporary examples offered by historians. This has been done as part of a college project, and I am very happy with how it turned out, if there any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Many thanks JWesleyPowell (talk) 18:52, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Added section

message: Hey all, working on this page as part of a college project - specifically looking to talk about the role of Mistica in the ideology of the MST. I have listed some of my planned sources below, and welcome any advice. I am not advanced or well versed at Wikipedia editing, so will try to keep my contributions short, concise and well balanced. Thanks. 
Praxis of Empowerment: Mística and Mobilization in Brazil's Landless Rural Workers' Movement Author(s): Daniela Issa Source: Latin American Perspectives , Mar., 2007, Vol. 34, No. 2, Globalizing Resistance: The New Politics of Social Movements in Latin America (Mar., 2007), pp. 124-138
Mística, meaning and popular education in the Brazilian Landless Workers Movement John L. Hammond Interface: a journal for and about social movements Article Volume 6 (1): 372 – 391 (May 2014)
Liberation Theology's Critique of the Developmentalist Worldview: Implications for Religious Environmental Engagement Author(s): Stephen B. Scharper Source: Environmental Philosophy , Vol. 3, No. 1 (Spring 2006), pp. 47-69
LIBERATION THEOLOGY IN BRAZIL Author(s): Cláudio Carvalhaes and Fábio Py Source: CrossCurrents , MARCH 2017, Vol. 67, No. 1, BLACK RELIGIONS IN BRAZIL / RELIGIÕES NEGRAS NO BRASIL (MARCH 2017), pp. 157-17
The influence of the Pastoral Land Commission (CPT) in the formation of the Landless Rural Workers Movement (MST): brief theoretical-documentary analysis of the role of religion in social conflicts in Brazil (1954-1984)
Again, all the best JWesleyPowell (talk) 19:22, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Future planned additions

message: I've tagged the article with disputed neutrality because the overall article has serious problems concerning cherry picking either in both sides (pro X con). The mere fact the article is listed under an "human rights" issue is disputable, as some of the movement's practices (like stealth organization and lack of institutional statutes and organizations to avoid law enforcement) resemble as much as a criminal gang as a "social action group".
The entire article ended up being a piece where supportive editors pushed law interpretations that are, at best, borderline with mainstream Brazilian jurisprudence, and not-supportive editors picked isolated facts to denigrate the movement. The result is a fractured article, one that needs major rewriting and reorganization, including more data and different views on the legality/criminality of its existence and modus operandi.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Europegrad (talk • contribs) 05:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of members of MST have certainly been charged with criminal acts and that is mentioned several times in this article already (in fact, it is mentioned far more than the repression of MST which I believe is undue weight). That they resemble a gang is of course, your opinion. The notion that MST is a "gang" in the sense of actual organized crime, is kind of silly in my opinion and I doubt you'll find many journalists, even among the pro-Washington-Consensus crowd, who construe them as such. There is obviously a big difference between an organization whose members have been involved in criminal activities, and a "gang" or "organized crime" syndicate. If you find examples that claim the MST to be the latter, feel free to insert them but maintain due weight. In fact, while the article already mentions several of the arrests/charges, the article doesn't take into much consideration the claims of the MST that arrests of their members are often politically motivated. Needless to say, politically motivated arrests of non-criminals has a storied history in Brazil. In fact, I'll go ahead and add a reference to this one specific case: http://www.mstbrazil.org/?q=amorimanalysis ... Another thing -- MST claims the "occupations" to be constitutional, as mentioned in the article (of course, there have been arrests for some allegedly criminal acts (looting, destruction of property) carried out in the course of the occupations, as well as for alleged crimes outside of the occupations). 173.3.41.6 (talk) 20:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, the article is heavily biased in favor of this group. I'm not sure how any neutral observer could come away without feeling so. --72.47.85.22 (talk) 13:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: POV and cleanup + reorganize nomination

message: Someone stuck the "update" tag on the article, but didn't indicate what is out of date about it. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:46, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
: Sorry, I should've mentioned this here yesterday.  On Current events, there is an entry for May 17:
::12,000 protesters march in the Brazilian capital of Brasília to protest the government's slowness in land reform. A 17-day march of the Landless Workers' Movement ends with violence in the capital when the demonstrators clash with the riot police. Over 50 people are injured. (Reuters)
:I was hoping to see some further info here or on the land reform page, perhaps for ITN on MainPage.... -- PFHLai 10:42, 2005 May 20 (UTC)
: P.S. The photo of the march is there already.  -- PFHLai 00:45, 2005 May 22 (UTC)
I added this regarding the MST's meeting with President Lula after their march into Brasilia.
After a two week march into Brasilia from the city of Goiania, several leaders of the MST met with President Lula da Silva on May 18, 2005. The leaders presented President Lula with a list of 16 demands of which included economic reform, greater public spending, and public housing. Afterwards during interviews with Reuters, many of the leaders said that they still regarded President Lula as an ally but demanded that he accelerate his promised land reforms.
Brazil has one of the largest wealth gaps thoughout Latin America and the world. Approximately half of all the country's farmland is owned by 1% of the population.
* BBC article- Brazil Landless Visit President--Jersey Devil 01:31, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update? 

message: I apologize because  I did not came here before. I dont have too much time.--Carlosar 2 July 2005 04:16 (UTC)
I would like to ask you to change the sentence:
The expropriation  process can take years and is often accompanied by violence as fazendeiros hire gunmen to intimidate, and not infrequently kill, members of the MST.
To:
The expropriation  process can take years and  is sometimes accompanied by violence as fazendeiros hire gunmen to intimidate, and not infrequently kill, members of the MST.
I have read the other sentences and I am still thinking about them. But I think that I agree with some of them, so this dispute will finish soon. However I will have to add more information (in a new section)--Carlosar 2 July 2005 04:16 (UTC)
 That is a very reasonable request.  It's done.  Colmenero
So, are we ready to remove the warnings off this article yet? 68.127.184.214 03:08, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute -2

message: Removed "MST It´s a shame to Brazil and the order in Brazil. The movement destroys, kill, and spank people. The government does NOTHING TO CHANGE IT. The army must be used. And soon!
They believe in Communism Revolution, violence and death to get to the power. Definitely, MST its prejudicial to Democratic Repúblic of Brazil." from the section of Vandalism. POV, poorly articulated, largely incorrect and misconcieved.
—This unsigned comment was added by 82.2.173.61 (talk • contribs) 11 March 2006.
: The entire section entitled "vandalism" is poorly written to the point that I don't even think I can copy edit it. "The MST stimulates a large diversity of vandalism acts…Its president, Mr Stédile, greeted the vandals…" If someone knows what this means to say, and can write decent English, please fix it. Otherwise, it should be cut to talk, because it is nearly incomprehensible. - Jmabel | Talk 04:34, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Okay, I've gone over the article in an attempt to make it NPOV. I've removed the following:
''
"The MST’s success lies in its ability to organize and educate. Members have not only managed to secure land, therefore food security for their families, but also continue to develop a sustainable socio-economic model that offers a concrete alternative to today's globalization that puts profits before people and humanity." 
You need to justify that they're succesful with citations, references from non-biased sources, etc. I have put a "citation needed"  mark where these are required. Also, do not remove referenced material. The vandalism section was properly referenced and to the best of my knowlege from the article, accurate. Do not edit out a reference unless you intend to discredit said source. Otherwise, lot's of new information--let's keep it going!--Dali-Llama 13:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits by Fred Douglas

message: This article is biased towards the MST. It makes them look as freedom fighters, revolutionaries, heros, when in fact they are nothing but a bunch of vandals. And when I say vandal, I mean they break  other's things without any reason at all. In my humble opinion, they should be doing something more productive like reforestation. Cuzandor 04:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No matter what your opinion is of who they are, the way to go about it is to keep the article under a neutral point-of-view. If you're really passionate about it, try to find an instance of their vandalism (and we know there are many) and add it to the vandalism section (with lots of citations). Go for it!--Dali-Llama 12:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I´ve never agreed with Cuzandor before, but this article is clearly biased towards MST. I was hoping to read an article consistent with Wikipedia NPOV policies, but found POV everywhere. We must strive to provide all points of view (at least the most important) to capacitate the reader to achieve his own judgments. The MST is a brutal and agressive movement, I´ve witinessed friends of mine being beaten by those so called freedom-fighters when they occupied a road tolling facility on the state of Paraná where I was working on (what the hell they have to do with road toll?)... I do not deny them the right to fight. I´m pretty much on the middle-ground here. The government do little for the poor, and the poor do not achieve anything by lowering their heads, the rich like to stay imovable in place, not to let things change. It´s hard to imagine anything being acomplished without some kind of fight, but I think MST to be more politically driven than ideologically. There are reliable sources that aligns with them, and many others that are against them. I think it would be top-priority to research it and bring a more neutral and balanced view to the entire article (the introduction section even claims that the occupations are rooted on the constitution, which is entirely a personal interpretation, after all, the constitution is a much more reliable root for the right for property not occupation of property). Loudenvier 16:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then let's find citations of what they are and are not. Fred Douglas did a very pro-POV re-edit to the article, as I imagine will most people outside of Brazil. Let's find those "reliable sources" you talk about and put them in here. I've put the "" tag where the POV facts aren't backed up. Unless we want to strip the article of all content, let's find sources, both pro and con, to figure out what the MST is and is not.--Dali-Llama 19:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It´ll be hard to figure it out! The best we could hope is to provide the most reliable sources from the many points of view (POV :-) this matter attracts. Let the readers figure out what the MST is for themselves :-) (By the way I did a few searchs in google, the majority of articles are in Portuguese but since I´m brazilian it won´t be a problem (just a litle copy-edit by english speakers will suffice!!!). Loudenvier 20:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Non-english language sources are okay as long as they are pertinent to the article. There is no "hard" policy against non-English language sources, only that it is "preferred" for sources to be in English. You'll notice all my sources from the vandalism section are in Portuguese. If origin for the source is closely related to the subject matter (IE: A Portuguese source for an article on a Brazilian subject), it shouldn't be hard for us to obtain peer-review of sources).--Dali-Llama 21:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: Violence is a common occurrence in the Brazilian land reform conflict, perpetrated by both government authorities and the MST itself. In a notorious example, the Eldorado dos Carajás Massacre, 19 MST members were gunned down in a massive clash between police and the MST[1]. The MST itself is violent at times, including cases where it has tortured and killed police officers after taking them prisoner.[2]
The ideas written here don't match with the sources that they cite, simple and clear. I don't mean to argue if the MST uses or has used violence.
The problem may be that the sources cited are in portuguese. As for me, portuguese is not my native language, it's spanish, but I understand portuguese. So, I can tell that saying that at the Eldorado dos Carajás Massacre there was a massive clash between police and MST activists is not what the website cited says. The website  is clearly pro MST in the interpreation of the facts happened there and says that the activists defended themselves with rocks and sticks while the police was throwing gas bombs and shooting. That doesn't describe a massive clash in my opinion.
As for the second episode of supossed violence it doesn't match its sources either. It reads cases where it (MST) has tortured and killed police officers after taking them prisoner. The article cited, despite having an opinion that could be considered anti MST, does not say that. It says that at an MST camp one policeman was tortured and another killed, probably, following the article's information, by people who weren't members of MST at the time. MST did condemn this act and argued that the people who did it had been expulsed time before from the movement. In this other website you can learn that. 
:MST is a violent movement. Period. The fact that they condemn such "violence" afterwards is only retoric political speak. The torture of the policeman is a well known fact here in Brazil, as it is the invasion of road-toll facilities and aggression against the press. It will be hard to find english sources for a movement mostly concerned with Brazil´s agrarian reform. Not all sources need to be available online nor in the english language. The fact that you could not read portuguese neither make the cited source correct nor wrong :-) An unbiased portuguese speaker could be "summoned" to watch over this. There are tags that can be put in the article asking for an specialist. Perhaps it applies here. Loudenvier 15:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Source  is from one of Brazil's largest newspapers. They're typically NPOV and the general consensus amongst the population is that Eldorado dos Carajás was pretty much a massacre, regardless of your opinion of the MST. In the second source (the torture case), the article states that the policemen were chasing individuals who called for help from the MST settlement. The police officers were then approached by a group of about 100 workers from the MST settlement, at which point they were taken captive. The follow-up article denies the MST's involvement. Perhaps adding a statement of them denying their involvement would suffice. Overall the violence section is correct. As for the language of the sources, it is typically hard to find foreign press coverage of these issues, at least beyond the headline and two-paragraph blurb. This article is edited by a lot of native Portuguese-speakers, which are able to check the sources. Typically the more geocentric an article (IE: about a Brazilian Social movement), the more relevant is a source in that language. --Dali-Llama 21:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While, all things being equal, English language sources are to be preferred, all things are not equal. Clearly, the most detailed coverage of Brazil will generally be in Portuguese. We should not rely on inferior sources because they happen to be in English.  - Jmabel | Talk 02:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the Violence section 

message: About the sources that we have on the Violence section, they don´t match what the article says in this part. Again, no massive clash in source 1; no torture or killing directly claimed against MST in source 2:
Source 2 doesn´t say "that the policemen were chasing individuals who called for help from the MST settlement. The police officers were then approached by a group of about 100 workers from the MST settlement, at which point they were taken captive."
ACCORDING TO THIS SOURCE (I don´t know anything else about this episode)
The police wasn´t called from MST. "O sargento Cícero Jacinto da Silva e os soldados Adilson Alves Aroeira e Luiz Pereira da Silva foram ao local e iniciaram uma perseguição."
It says that the 3 policemen just went, to chase the suspects, not that they were called from MST camp.
At one moment the supects´ car is stopped  "O Saveiro entrou em uma estrada vicinal e foi parado.", and the policemen get off their car to arrest the suspects; as this happenes the suspects take the opportunity, gear the car and leave "Segundo os policiais sobreviventes, assim que eles desceram do carro para render os suspeitos, a dupla acelerou de novo e fugiu."
A new persecution happenes and at last the runaways stop the car at a part of the MST camp and call for help: "Houve nova perseguição, encerrada somente quando os veículos entraram no assentamento do engenho Bananeira. No local, relataram os policiais, os supostos integrantes do MST desceram do Saveiro e começaram a gritar por socorro."
Then about 100 members of the MST´s camp appear and at this moment 2 policemen are taken captive (source doesn´t say if it was by the suspects or the MST) and the other scapes.
Next, backup for the police shows up and negotiations start. When the police get the chance to enter the camp, one policeman is already dead and with signs of torture. "Ao entrar no assentamento, os policiais encontraram o corpo do soldado desaparecido. Ele foi morto a tiros e, segundo a PM, apresentava sinais de tortura." 
The other policeman, who survives, will say that he was kept captive by at least 6 men and so on...
but it doesn´t say anywhere that "The MST itself is violent at times, including cases where it has tortured and killed police officers after taking them prisoner". That´s what we have on the article, and there is no evidence, at least for me, for saying that from source 2.
So: "Overall the violence section is [NOT] correct".
If most editors in this article are brazilian we should agree on this.
--Ernalve 04:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am brazillian. For me it´s clear that the MST was responsible for those deaths and tortures. The article itself tells it. They were taken captive after the arrival of the 100 MST people. The source doesn´t explicit says the policemen were taken captive by the MST because it´s already implied: They were taken captive after the arrival of the  MST mob. This article does not need to be a verbatim copy of the source, since it would be a violation of copyright. By the way I think the violence section is wrong but not because the MST is not a violent movement (it have shown that it is VIOLENT many times, as is also violent the police when dealing with them). This section is wrong because it´s interpretative in substance. It´s not correct to say "The MST itself is violent at times..." unless you find a source which recognizes it. Reading an article about MST violence does not allow one editor to say "the MST is a violent movement" (although they are, it´s an interpretation that must be left to the reader, not enforced by the editor). Wikipedia is not place for editors to show their conclusions: Let´s say: A source tells that A is Yellow, B is Blue, it´s not up to the editor to conclude that A + B is green. We should only expose the facts from the sources, any intelligent reader will recognize that the MST is violent, no need to keep saying it on the article (on the contrary, in this talk, you are allowed to express your opinion, like me! :-) Loudenvier 14:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an unavoidable degree os interpretiveness in the writing of anything--with the possible exception of a dictionary. It is my understanding that the MST has shown itself to be violent at times, though that is not to say that they inherently violent or criminal. It's a difference between the means and the end: one can say that the MST employs violence at times, though violence is not its main objective. Much like the police, violence is used at times, but that is not its end objective (that's to uphold the law). Conclusions are allowed in Wikipedia, as long as they can be challenged and discussed as much as we're doing now. I'm obviously okay with the way it's phrased, but if there are any objections, edit the section and let's take it from there.--Dali-Llama 21:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I´ve read over some policies and concluded that conclusions are not allowed in wikipedia, because they are original research. "The MST itself is violent at times" can be better written "There were times the MST employed violence", which is not an interpretation, but a depicting of the facts (if it can be sourced, of course). Regards. Loudenvier 22:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems a bit semantic for me, but again, feel free to change the section.--Dali-Llama 23:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After posting it I found that it´s indeed a bit semantic only! You´re right. No need to change anything. Loudenvier 02:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violence Again 

message: I propose to introduce this changes, what do you think?
Episodes of violence have happened in the Brazilian land reform conflict, perpetrated by both government authorities and the MST itself. In a notorious example, the Eldorado dos Carajás Massacre, 19 MST members were gunned down while they were blocking a national rute[1]. The MST has also been accused of comitting violence, including a case of torture and assasination of police officers by people who is debated if at the time they were MST members or not.[2]
Maybe we could rewrite the last section, perhaps it is not readable enough in english. But I suggest to mantain the idea that it is not clear, accourding to the presented sources, if they were or not members at the time.
This was written by ernalve
I'm changing the section according to what I wrote above.
--Ernalve 12:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violence section - a proposal 

message: In Landless Workers' Movement#Crime and Vandalism, there are allusions to destruction at a Monsanto farm, but no mention of what motivated the attack (I'd guess genetically modified organisms, but we should say so). Also, I don't see what "despite the farm having over 600 hectares devoted to eucalyptus growth" has to do with anything: we have not been given the context to see why that is "despite". - Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Despite" is given the typical rationalization given by the MST when it takes over farms because they are "unproductive". Having 600 ha for eucalyptus growth is not being unproductive. You're right, more explanations in that paragraph are in order.--Dali-Llama 04:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime and Vandalism 

message: This section is not a fact, it is a POV.
I do't thinck it should be a section like this at all, instead should be a History section.
It is too controversial to say somenthing like "MST’s actions have in fact played an important role in the strengthening of Brazil’s democratic institutions."
Miguel Carter assertion in the end of the section, despite it is a citation from a scholar, it is his POV; and it is far from being a consensus.
Somenthing else: there are a Violence section and a Crime and Vandalism section. I thinck it should all be together in a Violence section about violence from and to MST.
Davivalle 02:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to make those changes, subject to everyone's subsequent edits, of course. I generally concur with the democracy section being a POV section (especially the last paragraph).--Dali-Llama 02:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  MST and democracy in Brazil 

message: The paragraph about schools financed by the MST, calling them Madrassad that indoctrinate children, is highly polemic and questionable, especially the analogy with Islamic schools in the Middle East. Wikipedia should be more neutral than journalistic magazines that are close to the political opponents' side. --El bes (talk) 05:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Madrassas 

message: These sites: [MST1] , [MST2] and [MST3] have videos about MST.Agre22 (talk) 13:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Brazilian videos about MST

message: It seems this user has a particular gripe with the MST. Though some parts of the edits may have been for the better, I think we can agree that inserting terms like "fallacy" isn't exactly POV either. Darth Viller (talk) 13:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism by Rodrigrap 

message: This section is out of order chronologically. Is it OK if I put it in order?
Alison intheair (talk) 05:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure! WP:BB says to be bold.--DThomsen8 (talk) 17:00, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violent Confrontations 

message: Here's my take, requested by Cerme on this issue, which is clearer than in the Paulo Francis article.
--On Brazilian courts: To me, this seems a clear case of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". One source is not a consensus, and the assertion of bias of an entire judiciary system is pretty extraordinary. Notwithstanding the fact that the article right now uses the same judiciary's decisions as a basis for which to provide constitutional justification for the MST. So in one instance it disqualifies the source while on the other asserting its reliability. For the purposes of this edit, I have to side with RafaAzevedo. Again, I'm not disputing that there isn't a bias--I'm just saying to make that claim you need a lot more evidence.
--On Veja: This is an old argument at the English wikipedia, and one which on occasion I've participated in. As I've said before: Veja's bias is not self-admitted (IE: unlike The Economist which is admittedly liberal or The National Review which is admittedly conservative.) In this case, "well-known" is not justified by the sources presented, but it could certainly be reasonable to say that the magazine is often criticized for having a right-wing bias. I personally have issues with even that criticism, since it's ad hominem and disqualifies the source rather than the information, but I don't think it's worth to stir that up right now. --Dali-Llama (talk) 21:32, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with everything, especially the last point. Recently the same discussion was held in ptwiki, when an editor proposed that Veja should no longer be used as a reliable source for what he claimed was an 'obvious bias', and the proposal was rejected. As Dali-Llama said, these attempts to claim that it is 'right-wing' or something of the sort are usually used to diminish and disqualify the source, many times in order to remove the information it referenced. RafaAzevedo  msg 21:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will answer to Dalillama and see wheter a consensus is to be found:
- On Brazilian courts: I tend to agree, as the sole source so far I have found says that the MST engages in litigation , for other reasons, in order to gain sympathies for its cause from individual judges - something very inportant in a juditial system based on Roman Law where trial by jury is very infrequent. I would say that judges' stances towards the MST usually ranges from empathy to deep seated hostility, active simpathies being rare, and that higher (collegiate)courts are more ill-disposed than individual judges in charge of lower courts - but to state that I would need additional references. 
- On Veja: Brazilian printed midia usually caters for a general readership and as such avoid taking an overtly partisan stance. In the case of Veja, however, there is the particular case, described in the article, of the account given by a reporter about MST public-funded schools being "madrassas". The whole problem is in considering wheter this particular piece of journalism is representative or not of a general stance. If we admit this (as I must say I personally do) then this equation ("MST schools=Madrassas") would offer an evidence of bias, as equating the MST with islamic fundamentalism would be to equate two entirely different movements, in entirely different societies, with entirely different concrete goals. What the two movements have in common would be, at best, their "radical" character. Acceptance of this equation, however, is , AFAIK, common in some milieus in the outer periphery of the Far Right, who tend to think in terms of conspiracy theories that include everything from the Chinese secret service, the secret remnants of the KGB to gay and ecological movements in vast (and vague) conspiracies to subvert Western Civilization. Perhaps we could settle for a consensus if we were symply to estate that the MST considers Brazilian Midia in general and Veja in particular to be biased against it as a movement - for which there is ample evidence we could gather. 
Finally, I would like to say that, though I agree that Wikipedia itself has no opinion and takes always a neutral stance, I believe this should not be stated at every line of the text, as one must not underestimate the readers' intelligence: the mere existence of a footnote appers to me to be evidence enough that the opinion offered is the source's, which, being acessible, can be perused by the reader, who will be left to decide by him/herself. Also, in terms of style, the constant repetition of the line "in the author's view", "in the sources' opinion", etc. renders the text bureaucratic-looking and somewhat indigestible.
Okay, that's itCerme (talk) 17:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Merely presenting the source is not enough when an opinion is being presented not as a quote, but as a fact. An encyclopedic article cannot present opinions and judgments without clarifying in the text who made them; this is not a magazine, newspaper article or blog. As for Veja's supposed partiality, if it is to be mentioned it should also be said that those who accuse the magazine of being partial are almost invariably connected in some way to the Left, either physiologically or ideologically. RafaAzevedo  msg 16:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Cerme and RafaAzevedo's edits 

message: And many who support said magazine's impartiality are connected in someway to the Far Right. So what?Cerme (talk) 17:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really, unless you accuse all of Veja's readers (and it is the most read magazine in Brazil) of being somehow connected to the "Far Right". That it is not a leftist or pro-leftist magazine is something widely known, and the magazine itself never hid it, but to accuse it of being 'far right' (whatever this term may mean in a country like Brazil) is ludicrous. RafaAzevedo  msg 19:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "those who accuse the magazine [Veja] of being partial are almost invariably connected in some way to the Left, either physiologically [sic] or ideologically" 

message: There are many Brazilian policy makers and Media professionals who take an hostile stance towards the MST, by 
(a) Rejecting the movement's modus operandi,which they see as confrontational and unnecessary violent; 
(b) Regarding the problem of landlessness as something that could be solved by banking on the ability of the labour market to eventually, in the long run, turn "peasants" and former small farmers into wage-workers, as historically happened in a number of capitalist countries - e.g. the United Kingdon since the XIXth. Century enclosures; 
However, in these twin cases, there is an awareness that there is an actual problem with access to the land and that it raises a legitimate issue about the landless' plight. In the case of Veja, the popularity of the magazine notwithstanding , what we have is something completely different: an attempt at presenting the movement as "terrorist" (by drawing on the equation MST schools=madrassas)and therefore as a criminal enterprise devoid of any political legitimacy whatsoever. That's something associated with Far Right thinking: an appeal at solving a social question by purely coercive and repressive meansCerme (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Veja is Brazil's largest and most popular periodical. It is slightly right of center, but by no means "far" right. --72.47.85.22 (talk) 13:52, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  At this point of time, discussing Veja's particular ideology is already a non-issue that should perhaps be moved to the magazine's article. What this article say, supporting itself on various quotes taken from Veja's past issues digital archive, is that Veja is profoundly hostile towards MST's activities in general, and that such an hostile stance is reciprocated by the MST's leadershipCerme (talk) 14:43, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Veja hostile towards MST? No. A better word would be critical. --72.47.85.22 (talk) 16:47, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Critical" in my view, would be if Veja acknowledged land reform in Brazil as an actual need, but deprecated the MST's particular methods, instead of describing any attempt at land reform as a criminal enterprise. However, it's hard to understand what is the goal of this discussion, given the existence of reliable sources enough in the article - in fact Veja's own archive of digitalized past issues - that allow the reader to grasp for him/herself Veja's precise stance towards the MST and vice-versaCerme (talk) 17:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is meant by Far Right.  

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Landless Workers' Movement. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061125211634/http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/6236/53/ to http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/6236/53/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 05:48, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I am deleting 
*"Following in the tracks of various messianic or partisan-inspired movements for land reform in Brazil" from the beginning of the second paragraph of the lede. I don't think it adds much, the use of "messianic" is a bit odd to North American years, and the paragraph goes on to say that actually the movement does NOT follow in their tracks and discusses how it differs.
*From the end of the 2nd paragraph in the Historical antecedents section: "Therefore, land reform was understood by many Brazilian Marxist activists and authorsArmando Boito Jr., Estado, política e classes sociais. São Paulo: UNESP, 2007, , page 211; Delsy Gonçalves de Paula,Heloisa Maria Murgel Starling,Juarez Guimarães, eds., Sentimento de reforma agrária, sentimento de República.Belo Horizonte: UFMG, 2006, pages 181 sqq; José de Souza Martins, Reforma agrária: o impossível diálogo. São Paulo: EdUSP , 2000,  , page 43 as a necessary part of a late process of Bourgeois Revolution.Christian Parenti, Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence. New York: Nation Books, 2011, , p. 161" Not sure what this means or if it actually means anything. It doesn't convey any meaning to me.
*from the end of the Sedile quote in the Present section: "and that the MST's future perspectives depended on the political stance of the working class in general." -- seems vague to the  point of meaninglessness. 
Elinruby (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed text 

message: the phrase occurs repeatedly and is meaningless in english unless it is an official accepted translation for a term of art in Brazilian law. I believe this probably means assets in the form of land, and "landed" is a misguided attempt to make land behave as an adjective. Noting the problem and will revise if I find out otherwise as I plow through this stuff. Elinruby (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  landed property 

message: "Since the the movement began in 1985, 1722 activists were murdered.https://www.bastamag.netticle/Le-Bresil-risque-de-subir-l-une-des-plus-grandes-regressions-ecologiques-et?var_mode=calcul"
: Here's the thing. It's hard to know what a reliable source is for an article about Ľa Marxist group, But that reference is questionable and it would be better to get a citation from a newspaper. Most importantly however the source does not support the statement. The article uses "movement" as a not-quite-English description of something that sounds like a pretty hardcore Occupy. A group would probably be a better term, but I haven't tackled that problem yet however. The article, whether reliable or not, says there have been 1722 activists murdered since 1985, total, in the entire country, not, as far as I can see, 1722 MST activist members murdered. This is an important fact that probably should be documented, I agree, but accurately and preferably citing something that will fly as RS.  Elinruby (talk) 09:34, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed text 

message: I believe this is supposedto mean that the constitution upheld this as a value previously defined in Brazilian political life, but we shouldn't have to guess and the phrase is baffling on its face. A pattern is not principled in English. It just doesn't make sense. The clause is also unnecessary to the primary point of the sentence, but I have no objection to a better version of the phrase being reinserted. Elinruby (talk) 09:39, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:   Following an earlier principled pattern 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 15 external links on Landless Workers' Movement. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120902042649/http://www.mst.org.br/node/7703 to http://www.mst.org.br/node/7703
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130719014944/http://mst.org.br/revista/49/destaque to http://www.mst.org.br/revista/49/destaque
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110718162005/http://alainet.org/active/7454%26lang%3Des to http://alainet.org/active/7454%26lang%3Des
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110719081923/http://www.brazil.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/9361/Miguel20Carter2060.pdf to http://www.brazil.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/9361/Miguel20Carter2060.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110501004949/http://www.mst.org.br/node/8926 to http://www.mst.org.br/node/8926
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120316153418/http://www.convergencia.jor.br/bancomonos/2005/diogo.pdf to http://www.convergencia.jor.br/bancomonos/2005/diogo.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120415110046/http://vsites.unb.br/fac/comunicacaoepolitica/AlessandraWeltman2000.pdf to http://vsites.unb.br/fac/comunicacaoepolitica/AlessandraWeltman2000.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111001165107/http://www.unesp.br/aci_ses/revista_unespciencia/acervo/16/perfil to http://www.unesp.br/aci_ses/revista_unespciencia/acervo/16/perfil
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121014181249/http://veja.abril.com.br/noticia/brasil/25-anos-mst-invasoes-badernas-desafio-lei?print=1 to http://veja.abril.com.br/noticia/brasil/25-anos-mst-invasoes-badernas-desafio-lei?print=1
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928233030/http://www.brazil.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/9365/Kathryn20Hochstedler2057.pdf to http://www.brazil.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/9365/Kathryn20Hochstedler2057.pdf
*Added archive https://archive.is/20120713172230/http://portalrevistas.ucb.br/index.php/rvmd/article/view/2511/1529 to http://portalrevistas.ucb.br/index.php/rvmd/article/view/2511/1529
*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/65jsAR3HE?url=http://cienciapolitica.servicos.ws/abcp2010/arquivos/12_7_2010_16_12_50.pdf to http://cienciapolitica.servicos.ws/abcp2010/arquivos/12_7_2010_16_12_50.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120303023154/http://www.mst.org.br/Policia-realiza-despejo-em-acampamento-do-MST to http://www.mst.org.br/Policia-realiza-despejo-em-acampamento-do-MST
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140420112350/http://www.globalwitness.org/library/sharp-rise-environmental-and-land-killings-pressure-planet%E2%80%99s-resources-increases-%E2%80%93-report to http://www.globalwitness.org/library/sharp-rise-environmental-and-land-killings-pressure-planet%E2%80%99s-resources-increases-%E2%80%93-report
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090510085646/http://www.waronwant.org/overseas-work/food-justice/landless-in-brazil to http://www.waronwant.org/overseas-work/food-justice/landless-in-brazil
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:05, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I find many claims in this article to be dubious and seemingly biased, but one in particular is just completely unbelievable: "Many have in fact been killed, although some murders were doctored to make them look like accidents.[165]" The source doesn't link to anything. This is a wild claim to make with no source, let alone a reliable one. Among the many other errors on this page, this section should be removed or properly cited.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.120.242.50 (talk) 19:13, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "doctored" murders? 

message: There are over one billion squatters worldwide and the phenomenon is under-represented on Wikipedia. Join Wikipedia:WikiProject_Squatting to help write articles about squatting in every country, or drop a message on the talkpage about something else you'd like to see covered. This is just one of many ways to counter systemic bias on Wikipedia! Mujinga (talk) 15:18, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:SQUAT]]