Talk:Dumnonii

message: While I can accept the Dumnonii as a Celtic tribe we are relying on the administration of the Roman province of Britain as our source.  In a number of cases the Romans divided or combined local tribes into their administrative civitates.  So, referring to the discussion at the top of this talk page, maybe there is some value in pointing out that we don't know of the Dumnonii as a tribe in the ethnological sense prior to Roman occupation, but do know them as a tribe in the (original) sense of a division, and in this case possibly one imposed from above.  Anyway, just a thought.  Also I've added a big chunk about William Camden.  I am recycling other people's work here, but I found it useful, especially in understanding the 'deep valley dweller' thing, and I have indicated Camden as the source of this because I can think of no one older who would have had a knowledge of Celtic languages (simultaneously removing the citation request, which I hope is OK - I think this pretty much covers that particular interpretation of the name).  Personally I regard 'deep valley dweller' as an example of folk etymology, seeing as Camden himself regards 'Danmonii' as more proper, somewhat reducing the similarity to Duff-neint, and if anything undermining his own assertion.  So I've added the 'people of the land' thing as an alternative, seeing as that was the name of an exhibition of Iron and Bronze Age artifacts in Plymouth Museum when I was a kid, and a more likely explanation of the name in my personal opinion. Stevebritgimp (talk) 01:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celtic tribe 

message: If no rulers are known, that line could usefully be omitted from the infobox, if it were more flexibly constructed (not usually a priority). Can anyone effect this deletion?--Wetman (talk) 00:41, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Disinfobox

message: Large amounts of material are being added to this article by User:Brythonek.  It appears to lack verifiable references, and/or to be original research - contrary to WP:V and WP:OR.  Unless other editors agree that it should be included, I propose that it be deleted.  Comments?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There are already articles on Dumnonia and Kingdom of Dumnonia, with which this article is now made to compete. The assertion of continuity that the new text espouses is a localist ludibrium of "Cornish sovereignty". Deleting, though, isn't editing. Perhaps our energies might be spent in supporting or adjusting statements with further citations and distributing it in the other articles. A statement like "Later history of the region may be found at Dumnonia and Kingdom of Dumnonia" would guide the reader. The blocks of new text could use some cleanup, wherever they go, certainly. --Wetman (talk) 20:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

text: If sources are "obscure" and/or "unreliable", they should not be used on Wikipedia.  This is fundamental - references need to be both verifiable - that is, they can be checked by readers - and reliable - that is, in particular, peer-reviewed in academic journals rather than being fringe theories or only available in self-published documents or websites.  This policy - WP:V - applies generally, but is particularly relevant in a subject area like this where there is (in many senses) a lot of myth-making.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  June 2009 

message: Right, I have spent the whole evening put references to the King List on the page. The main source in English is http://www.britannia.com/ 
However I have checked the latter's sources for the period in question and principally we have all the texts and traditional sources we would expect:-
*Gildas De Excidio Britanniae
*Nennius Historia Brittonum
*The Annales Cambriae
*Anglo Saxon Chronicle
*Fordhum University Medieval Source Book at
*William of Malmesbury  Gesta Regum Anglorum
*De Antiquitate Glastoniensis Ecclesiae
*"Llyfr Du Caerfyrddin" (Black Book of Carmarthen) 
The problem with sourcing here is that many of these manuscripts are in Old Welsh or Latin. Such as the following, some of whose names are pertinent to this article. When dealing with this period of history in Britain we have to accept the difficulty in sorting legend from fact or when legend and fact awkwardly ovrlap! For this reason I have avoided Arthurian references, other than one speculative link to Uther Pendragon in which it is also stated that this is a legendary link.
*Boneddy y Gwyr Gogledd Peniarth MS 45
*Urien son of Cynfarch son of Merchion son of Gorwst Lledlum son of Ceneu son of Coel.  
*Llywarch Hen son of Elidyr Lydanwyn son of Meirchawn son of Gorust Ledlwm son of Keneu son of Coel. Llywarch was not only a chieftan, but is credited with several poems in both the Red Book of Hergest and the Black Book of Carmarthen. 
*Clydno Eidin & Chynan Genhir & Chynuelyn Drwsgyl, Cynfawr Hadgadduc & Chatrawd Calchuynyd, are the sons of Cynnwyd Cynnwydyon son of Cynfelyn son of Arthwys son of Mar son of Keneu son of Coel. 
*Dunawd & Cherwyd & Sawyl High-head are the sons of Pabo the Pillar of Britain son of Arthwys son of Mar son of Keneu son of Coel. 
*Gwrgi & Peredur are the sons of Eliffer of the Great Retinue son of Arthwys son of Mar son of Keneu son of Coel.  
*Gwendoleu & Nudd & Chof the sons of Ceidyaw son of Arthwys. Gwendoleu was the pagan king defeated by Maelgwn Gwynedd, Rhydderch Hael, Aedan macGabhran and Peredur at the Battle of Arthuret. 
*Trychan cledyf Kynuerchyn a thrychan ysgwyt Kyrtnwdyon a thrycha wayw Coeling; pa neges bynhac yd elynt iddi yn duun, nyt amethei hon honno-.
*Rydderch Hael son of Tudwal Tudelyd son of Kedic son of Dyuynwal Hen.  
*Mordaf son of Seruan son of Kedic son of Dyfynwal Hen. 
*Elffin son of Gwyddno son of Cawrdaf son of Garmonyawn son of Dyfynwal Hen.  
*Gabhran son of Aedan Uradawc son of Dyuynwal Hen son of Idnyued son of Warlord Maxen.. 
*Elidyr Mwynuawr son of Gorust Priodawr son of Dyfynwal Hen 
*Huallu son of Tudfwlch Corneu, prince of Cornwall, & Dywanw daughter of Amlawdd Wledic. 
Well, that is about all I can do for one evening. I am working on bringing as many differing sources as possible, as soon as possible- So please do not delete any more links. All this informaation, as well as the links and sources are to be found on my talk page.
Brythonek (talk) 19:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am removing this from my watchlist. Someone else will have to bring this into line with reality.--Wetman (talk) 11:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've asked the library to get me The Kingdom of Dumnonia: Studies in History and Tradition in South-Western Briatin AD 350-1150 by Susan m Pearce -- whether they can or not, and if they can, when, I have no idea. Dougweller (talk) 18:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dumnonian edits 24.06.09

message: Reality or otherwise, why isn't all this stuff in its proper place? - we've had a merger proposal, and in general there was a consensus that we kept Dumnonii and Dumnonia separate.  Stuff about kings of Dumnonia should surely be on the Dumnonia page for a start. Maybe then people with Dumnonia on their watchlist will at least see this stuff. It's as if the other article has been ignored.  I have sympathy with the continuity view, but I'm among those opposed to merger.  On the reality issue, wikipedia does have standards of reliability, and unless the material is explicit that so and so was king of Dumnonia according to so and so in this book, and preferably this page or section, it isn't reliable.  Interested and accepting as I am of a lot of the internet-based stuff, it doesn't hit me as academic - and just giving a list of sources and saying that is where the material comes from isn't specific enough. A lot of those links don't even have a source in situ. Stevebritgimp (talk) 13:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why isn't this on the Dumnonia page? 

message: There's an old proposal (October 2008) to merge the articles on Dumnonia and Kingdom of Dumnonia. There's not been much input so if anyone interested of with knowledge of the period could chip in at Talk:Dumnonia#Merger proposal - Kingdom of Dumnonia that'd be great. Happy editing, Nev1 (talk) 14:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for input

message: "The Cornish Elements in the Arthurian Tradition" Susan M. Pearce Folklore, Vol. 85, No. 3 (Autumn, 1974), pp. 145-163
"of the idea that Arthur's exploits should have Cornish connections. It is necessary now to turn to the whole problem of the Dumnonian king-list, and Arthur's connection with it. I have suggested elsewhere (20) that the literary sources relating to this king-list give reason to suppose that the earliest names on the list were figures of South, probably South-East, Welsh connection, rather than South-West British, and equally that it was in South-East Wales that most interest was shown in cherishing and developing the traditions of the figures named on the list and of their associations. The Dumnonian pedigree is preserved in connection with the genealogy of Glamorgan in a part of MS Jesus College 20 which certainly relies on South-East Welsh tradition. Three early, probably historical, figures on the Dumnonian line, Eudaf, Cynan, and Adeon, appear in tradition only in Welsh contexts, and the last two, since they are intimately connected with the Breton migrations, are most likely to stem from southern Wales, like all the other colonists' leaders." Dougweller (talk) 16:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What Susan Pearce has to say about the king list 

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thread_title:  External links modified