Talk:Salting the earth

message: Pasting discussion from Talk:Carthage I think it could be useful. Ericd 19:55, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the story about salting the land around Carthage true? I have also read that is more of a legend than truth...they actually just threw a handful of salt on the ground to symbolize that no one would be allowed to live there after it was destroyed. (Now I'll have to see if I can find where I read that...) Adam Bishop 00:35, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no reference about it but it's not impossible after all lake Tunis is a salt lake and it's not that far. Ericd 10:19, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: I have no special skills in history. If there is no source before the 19th is probably mythical. For what I know about the geography the region I think is that the economic argument as presented on that page [] is a wrong view. The only valid question to see if that was possible is how many people, how many chariots and how many time to carry free salt from lake Tunis? You know there is an article Salting the earth maybe we could incorporate this debate in? Ericd 06:23, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article mentions Pope Boniface VII who salted Palestrina in the 13th century, whilst referring to Carthage. Why does the article say that the first sources were then in the 19th century?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.235.227.194 (talk) 20:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote (translated) "I have run the plough over it, like the ancient Carthage of Africa, and I have had salt sown upon it...." is ambiguous as to whether the "like the ancient Cathage" refers just to the plowing or also the salting. Abby Kelleyite (talk) 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Carthage

message: Part of the Roman ritual for founding a city was to plough a furrow, the pomerium, around the city limits. There were some things one could and couldn't do within this city limit, e.g., no burials within, only outside. The city gods were only responsible to bless up to this line, etc. Think of it as an ancient zoning ordinance. The pomerium would have to be renewed and the city purified every five years. This is called lustration.
There was a variant of the lustral ceremony for revoking a city's status and part of the ritual was to plough salt into the pomerium. Sewing salt wasn't to sterilize the land, it was to destroy the city and its connection to its tutelary deities. I imagine this is what the Romans had in mind in Carthage. And when they refounded the city a few years later, no doubt they ploughed an inaugural furrow for the occasion. --Fulminouscherub 02:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salting just the pomerium 

message: Why are the salts that poured in the streets after a snow doesn't kill plant life?
Cause there's asphalt there. Also, weeds are pretty hardy.
It does, less salt is used for example, on bridges over shallow waterways, to prevent plant damage 76.255.10.142 (talk) 19:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does. See ‘Lake Wobegon Days’ by Garrison Keillor, and ‘The Great Salt Debate.’  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:3020:1C00:515A:BD84:433D:A0FF (talk) 07:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are the salts that poured in the streets after a snow doesn't kill plant life? 

message: ===Stone memorial of the Aveiro's shame===
One point is unclear. Does the monument contain English text, or is the text presented a translation? The sentence just says, in parentheses, that it is in English. Maybe I'm just missing the obvious. I assume it's a translation just from common sense, but it's a little unclear. 08:30, 22 May 2006 65.24.138.72
:It's a translation. I translated it. The original can be seen in Duke of Aveiro, and it says: Aqui foram arrasadas e salgadas as casas de José Mascarenhas, exautorado das honras de Duque de Aveiro e outras condemnado por sentença proferida na Suprema Juncta de Inconfidencia em 12 de Janeiro de 1759. Justiçado como um dos chefes do barbaro e execrando desacato que na noite de 3 de Septembro de 1758 se havia commetido contra a real e sagrada pessoa de D.José I. Neste terreno infame se não poderá edificar em tempo algum. The Ogre 14:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is fascinating, I wonder if this belief derives from 2 Kings 2:21 ?  (While looking this up I found a bonafide reference in Judges to sowing a rebellious city with salt, that I just now added to the article!) ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's interesting. But, not doubting you, what are your sources? The Ogre 14:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Book of Judges 9:45.  ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, sorry, I guess you were talking to Psyllis... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep! The Ogre 14:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, that is funny, but to order a sentence of "natural death by hanging" actually makes sense; it means to hang a person and let her die slowly. That is, the person would be suspended by the neck at shallow height and left to suffocate gradually, instead of the more "humane" and common method of hanging, which breaks the neck after a short free fall into the gallows, bringing about a quick demise. Therefore, a sentence of "natural death by hanging" is a particularly severe and cruel punishment.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.64.199 (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portugal 

message: One point is unclear. Does the monument contain English text, or is the text presented a translation? The sentence just says, in parentheses, that it is in English. Maybe I'm just missing the obvious. I assume it's a translation just from common sense, but it's a little unclear. 08:30, 22 May 2006 65.24.138.72
:It's a translation. I translated it. The original can be seen in Duke of Aveiro, and it says: Aqui foram arrasadas e salgadas as casas de José Mascarenhas, exautorado das honras de Duque de Aveiro e outras condemnado por sentença proferida na Suprema Juncta de Inconfidencia em 12 de Janeiro de 1759. Justiçado como um dos chefes do barbaro e execrando desacato que na noite de 3 de Septembro de 1758 se havia commetido contra a real e sagrada pessoa de D.José I. Neste terreno infame se não poderá edificar em tempo algum. The Ogre 14:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stone memorial of the Aveiro's shame

message: Portuguese tradition of slating the Earth, is mainly in a view to expel evil and not to destroy plantation per se. It was very common to do so in houses suspected to be haunted. Psyllis 16:19, 21 Septmeber 2006 (CET)
:That is fascinating, I wonder if this belief derives from 2 Kings 2:21 ?  (While looking this up I found a bonafide reference in Judges to sowing a rebellious city with salt, that I just now added to the article!) ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's interesting. But, not doubting you, what are your sources? The Ogre 14:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Book of Judges 9:45.  ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, sorry, I guess you were talking to Psyllis... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep! The Ogre 14:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Salting to expel evil

message: The article text states that "the last known event of this sort was the destruction of the Duke of Aveiro's palace in Lisbon in 1759." It may have been so in Portugal itself, but in Brazil - then a Portuguese colony - part of the punishment imposed on Tiradentes, considered the leader of the failed seditious movement called the Inconfidência Mineira in 1789, consisted of salting the earth where his house had stood.
This was ordered in a 1792 document called the Autos da Devassa (very loosely translated, "Investigation Report," though it was actually the final sentence of the rebels' trial), and it is not an obscure scholarly subject: all Brazilian children learn that at school in their History classes.
It is not clear whether the salting was actually carried out (maybe not, because at that time salt was very scarce and expensive in the far-inland mountainous area of Minas Gerais, where the events took place), but this shows that the practice of salting the earth of convicted traitors' property was at least considered current in the Portuguese empire three decades after the Duke of Aveiro's former palace property was salted.
As a quick off-topic humorous side note (OK, maybe black humor...), in the curious language of the time, the Autos da Devassa also sentenced Tiradentes to "die of a natural death by hanging" (que morra de morte natural na forca) - which of course makes Brazilian schoolchildren burst into laughter when hearing that... :-)
--UrsoBR (talk) 10:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is funny, but to order a sentence of "natural death by hanging" actually makes sense; it means to hang a person and let her die slowly. That is, the person would be suspended by the neck at shallow height and left to suffocate gradually, instead of the more "humane" and common method of hanging, which breaks the neck after a short free fall into the gallows, bringing about a quick demise. Therefore, a sentence of "natural death by hanging" is a particularly severe and cruel punishment.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.64.199 (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tiradentes' prosecution in Brazil

message: Someone care to explain how the Assyrians are the predecessors to Rome?  Their sphere of influence never extended to Italy...  look at the web page for Assyrian.  Anyone have a problem if I reword it to just say that it was a practice used by the Assyrians?
Vargob 17:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote that, because as powerful Empire the Assyrians were certainly predecessors of the Romans, as well as in the strictly chronological sense, without having had to cover the same geographic ground.  The meaning of the word predecessor usually refers to time, not space. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did a double-take when I saw "predecessors" as well. I move the Assyrian section up in the article because the first example given shouldn't be one that is now thought to be fabricated. Plus, they seem to have the earliest example of the practice (1290 BC). Tocharianne 14:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman predecessors, the Assyrians?? 

message: Didn't Josephus mention the Romans salting the area around Jerusalen when it was sacked? Banaticus 22:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews Book 5, Chapter 7:4 mentions the salting of Shechem, but I don't believe he mentions any other episodes of salting cities. Do you have a cite? --macrakis (talk) 16:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Josephus]]

message: ...Shouldn't it be "poured onto the land"? --Scyrma 19:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "poured into the land" 

message: How long would it take for the land to be viable again? I don't recall the exact sources, but I think I heard somewhere that some places that were salted in wars 5,000 years ago are still unviable. Not all, I'll grant it's possible for the salt to be washed away under the right conditions, but...not everywhere might have those conditions.
: In my experience, admittedly in a humid climate with about 8-900mm of rain per annum in England, salt is washed out of the soil fairly rapidly. Where road salt has been dumped in heaps next to the road vegetation has grown again within a year.
In a drier climate it would take longer, but I cannot imagine it would take that long. Booshank 21:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This whole idea is absurd.  According to Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2698/did-ancient-conquerors-punish-their-enemies-by-sowing-captured-fields-with-salt) it would require about 31 tons of salt to render an acre unusable.  Given this estimate, it would require about 200,000 tons to render a ten square mile area (6400 acres) unusable.  According to the wikipedia article on salt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt) the entire annual world production of salt is 200 million tons/year.  That means that in order to spoil an area of ten square miles, you'd need .1% of the entire salt production for an entire year!  Can you spoil an acre of farmland?  Yes.  Could you realistically spoil even a small farm?  No way.
I dont want to look smart but what is the annual production of sea water?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurorebel (talk • contribs) 04:23, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salt dissipation 

message: For the benefit of those of us who do not have immediate access to your source, would you please share exactly what you have that so conclusively demonstrates the story of Rome salting Carthage was unheard of until the 20th Century???  I bet I even have some 19th century history books in my collection right now where I could find it mentioned.  The previous version of the article said the story first appears in the Middle Ages, so it just seems like a dramatic shift to suddenly proclaim that the case is closed on the strength of one new author whose words aren't quoted.  What exactly does this source say that you found so convincing? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Source on Carthage? 

message: I have added several sources to the article and reorganized it a bit.  --macrakis (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Carthage etc.

message: The sentence featuring the current footnote 8 claims that the first reference to the Roman salting of Carthage began in the 19th century, but the sentence of footnote 11 (citing the pope in 1299) specifically refers to the Roman model of salting Carthage.  This is inconsistent, and should be resolved if possible. (unsigned)
:The cited document says that he ordered Carthage plowed 'following the old example of Carthage in Africa'; 'and also salted' ("ipsam ... aratro subjici ad veteris instar Carthaginis Africanae, ac salem in ea etiam fecimus seminari ut nec rem nec nomen aut titulum habeat civitatis.") Whether the salting was part of the "old example of Carthage" is unclear at best (but there must surely be better Latinists on Wikipedia than me).  It's like saying: "Give me a vanilla ice cream like Ann's, and lots of chocolate sauce"; did Ann's have chocolate sauce? --macrakis (talk) 14:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Inconsistency

message: The article reads this:
"Various modern sources claim that the Roman general Scipio Aemilianus Africanus plowed over and sowed the city of Carthage with salt after defeating it in the Third Punic War (146 BC), sacking it, and forcing the survivors into slavery. However, no ancient source mentions this; the first references to the Roman salting of Carthage are found in the late 19th century,[8] making it likely that the story is a later invention, modelled on the story of Shechem.[9] The ritual of symbolically drawing a plow over the site of a city is, however, mentioned in ancient sources, though not in reference to Carthage specifically.[10]
When Pope Boniface VIII destroyed Palestrina in 1299, he ordered it plowed "following the old example of Carthage in Africa", and also salted.[11]"
If Pope Boniface VIII ordered it plowed "following the old example of Carthage in Africa" and salted the land, wouldn't the salt story be more than a 19th century legend?  Would that not mean that this legend was around in the 13th Century, if not earlier?  There's something being overlooked here.  Either Pope Boniface VIII never said that, or Carthage was actually salted.  In any case, one of the two things need to be removed.  Either the part about the legend, or the part about the pope.
:-CaradocTheKing (talk) 00:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Boniface clearly believed (following ancient texts) that Carthage was plowed.  But it is unclear whether he believed Carthage had been salted, or just that he ordered Palestrina salted in addition to the plowing a la Carthage (presumably following the Biblical example of Shechem).  Our reliable sources don't interpret this as meaning that he thought Carthage was salted. --Macrakis (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction? 

message: Guys, IMO this section reads very poorly and has remained without any sources backing it up since 21-Nov-09.  That's just too long, and I believe this section should be removed in its entirety.Tgm1024 (talk) 00:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Punishing traitors" section has been without citation for 7 months. 

message: "The story is a later invention, modelled on the story of Shechem." This is cited, but I think we should say "According to Ridley, the story is..."; I agree it is a later development, but how can we -- or Ridley -- possibly know that it is 'modeled on the story of Shechem'? It seems likely that it's a misinterpretation of what Boniface VIII said about plowing Palestrina "after the example of ancient Carthage in Africa" and sowing salt. 165.91.189.35 (talk) 23:58, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can tell, there is no dispute in the scholarly literature that the story is a later invention.  True, "modelled on the story of Shechem" is not as firmly established, so I've added a "probably" -- what do you think?  As a general rule, I think it's a bad idea to mix source attribution with substantive narrative, except of course when there's substantive disagreement, which as far as I can tell there isn't. --Macrakis (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: A later invention?

message: On an episode of The Simpsons Homer salts the earth of his neighbor Flanders. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 08:57, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simpsons 

message: According to a study by UN University, about 62 million hectares (20%) of the world's irrigated lands are already affected of salty soil, up from 45 million hectares in the early 1990s.  In the Indo-Gangetic Plain, home to over 10% of the world's population, crop yield losses for wheat, rice, sugarcane and cotton grown on salt-affected lands could be 40%, 45%, 48%, and 63%, respectively.--Neurorebel (talk) 04:17, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all interesting and important, and relevant to the article on soil salinity, but not to this article, which is about an ancient ritual practice. --Macrakis (talk) 18:26, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a clear relation betwen both articles not being mentioned, article should apport technical data about why salting the earth is pernicfious and how long last its effects --Neurorebel (talk) 22:49, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: As natural phenomenon

message: My addition of a current incidence of salting departs from the historic nature of the page. Was a "public property" heading the right way to go? Or is something like "Modern times" better? KarenJoyce (talk) 15:35, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is specifically about "the ritual of spreading salt on the sites of cities razed by conquerors". Other uses of spreading salt on the ground, like keeping sidewalks ice-free, vandalizing garden allotments, etc. are not relevant here. --Macrakis (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I considered the vandalism to be an act of desecration of a site used to feed the poor, calling back to this ancient ritual. It sounds like we aren't even in agreement that the act is a desecration and not some sort of blessing. KarenJoyce (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure that the modern vandals intended to hurt the fertility of the land. The ancient ritual was apparently not about salting agricultural land to kill its fertility, but about symbolically salting cities to curse their re-inhabitation. None of the ancient sources mention agricultural fertility. It's not whether we (you and I) are in agreement -- it's just following the sources. --Macrakis (talk) 21:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern cases