Talk:Ohlone/Archive 1

message: Very nice map. My applause! — ishwar  (SPEAK) 23:51, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)
: Thanks!  It's available in Arabic too :).  I'm not 100% confident of the Karkin and Chochenyo boundaries, which sources seem to disagree on, so tell me if you spot anything fishy. Saclan was once thought to be Costanoan, but turned out to be Miwok. - Mustafaa 09:26, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: nice map

message: I verified and corrected and copy edited tonight. What it seemed to need the most was softening its position and not sound so absolute if it did not know something for a fact (plus all the added sources).  I think it's much better. I took the initiative to remove the verify flag. I suggest if there are elements that need further verification to enter  on the statements to check, just as I have left one on population. Goldenrowley 09:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Verification complete

message: Sorry all, I think I did get carried away with the points, but this is my vacation and I have more time to think and write. Also I wrote Kroeger, when I meant Kroeber.
Anyhow, I've re-read parts of "Handbook of ..." Kroeber/1925, "The Population ..." Cook/1976, "A Time of Little Choice" Milliken/1995, "Lands of Promise..." Ed. Beebe /2001, all the La Peninsula (San Mateo County Historical Association) articles  about Costanoan (1968/1970/1973/1979),  and tons more... I'm in the middle of organizing the material into folders and notes. All this before I go and look for a reference on village names. Milliken says "Merriam, C. Hart" has village and rancheria names from Mission records, 1968 and 1970 (pg. 343). In any case, if I don't find it I am going to Berkeley on Thursday. I plan to look at the diseños for "Las Pulgas" and "Rancho Raymundo". The last is for my work on Redwood City and Menlo Park Indians.
With that, I note (at this time) my folder names include:
* salmon
* aquaculture and fisheres, San Mateo County
* Redwood City and Menlo Park Indians
* Creek and Streams of RWC/San Mateo County
* Port or Redwood City
The real difficulty is that most historian are clumping together all regional indians into one class and one culture. 
Diverging from that, my main topic of research is salmon. I'm trying to find out if salmon ever ran on the bay side of the peninsula. I plenty of evidence for the coastside, North of SF (San Pablo Bay ), the Carquinez straits, the eastbay (Oakland, hayward, fremont), even San Jose, but the bayside is going to be difficult. Part of the problems is pre-gold rush the missionaries built aquaducts, then post-gold rush includes sawmills, then local gentry estates that included damming local streams, then dairy farms damming, then finally the SF Water hoarding, from 1870 to post-1906 earthquake.
To finish off, I think I want to start putting in tribe names from Milliken, then later village names from Merriam. Then perhaps move on to terms? What do you think?  meatclerk 08:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would be very good Jeremy, if you know more history and more resources, go for it. I wasnt intending to get too involved on this one page.  I just grew up in the Santa Clara Valley and could put it into sections and in order. I'll loko forward to seeing if you guys can expand it.Goldenrowley 03:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand. I believe you said "you did *not* intend to get too involved". If so, that is fine. A reader/reviewer would be awsome as well. Certainly, I get my share of missssplellingsss and auful grammer. On to other things. meatclerk 04:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. By the way, the Miwok and the Ohlone share the following language page: Utian languages. Is that page ok with the Costanoan/Ohlone language experts? if so do we mention Miwok on this page? Goldenrowley 18:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Round Up of Issues 

message: Later tonight I plan to scan many pages and put them up for you to read, including a section on minerals and myths. As per your last question on language, I am reading that Kroeber, who wrote the widely quoted, "Handbook on California Indians", was more than a bit lazy.
In the book Handbook on California Indians, Kroeber writes, that except for a handful of tribes, most of the work was a summary of other works - Bancroft, Powell and others. 
In the book Indian Names for Plants & Animals amoung California and other north west tribes, the editor describes an ongoing silent fued between - J. P. Harrington & C. H. Merriam <-and-> Kroeber. The former two (2) disliked Kroeber so much, they would often follow him around to verify his work - checking on errors. The two (2) were "loaner"s, neither were "ethnologist" or "linguists". Their work was frequently chided as "amatureish", but Merriam was studying as a naturalist, so his work seem difficent to them, but I see issues with Merriam's work too.
Nonetheless, Robert F. Heizer seems to have been caretaker of his remaining, and unfinished work. Hence, much of his work follows Merriam. As such, I'm not sure where Levy, Englhart, Cook and Milliken fit in. 
To answer your original question: Milliken says Utian, via Handbook of North American Indians Shipley/1978; editor R. F. Heizer... See the connection now? meatclerk 05:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addressing Discrepencies 

message: To date, without exception all population estimates (pre-1849) are based on existing Mission records, birth, baptism, marriage and death. The state and completeness of such records vary. In the last section I stated, "In some places, like SF it was great..". Of this, I was speaking about Mission record collection in general.
I should make clear that these statements are based on incomplete readings of Milliken and others. None the less, it is quite clear that early on when Fages and Fonts were at Mission Dolores records were kept quite clear, but as time passed other missionaries were not as careful. They kept detail information, including the village of origin (my interest). However, as time passed other missionaries were not as clear, not as complete. Different factors may have influenced this, including epidemics.
Other Mission, like Santa Clara, only listed regions of origin. For instance, San Bernadino was the area North of the mission, upto San Fransquito Creek and to the ridges of Santa Cruz Mountains, even though groups like the Olpen crossed over. Again this is all in the area of my interest. Other records from other missions vary, but it is said similar problems occur. 
Of course, I did not mention simple clerical errors, like spelling. A large problem for ethnohistorians and linguist has been the varied spelling on different name. Personally I have seen about 6-8 different spelling for the now conventinal Ohlone. Does this help? --meatclerk 20:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree getting the real facts in one article and spelling of names is always going to be an issue. However, a footnote may easily make note of these two identified issues.   Goldenrowley 20:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ohlone Way Book report and response moved to top by Goldenrowley 06:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review of Population 

message: The information is essentially correct. It was one of many reasons I labeled the article as unreliable. At best, the new entry might be labeled citation needed. --meatclerk 01:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert of History section on Oct. 2, 2006 

message: First, yes the page is getting too long, even for me. So I suggest, except for the first section - your booknotes, everything above this should be archived. I think we discussed two or three topics to dead, and at best some notes on the concencess (sp?). Does this sound good?
On the outline, today I went to the library looking for a good source for an outline. The California Historical Society Quarterly (articles from 1922-1961) seems to have a good breakdown, but we might merge a few. The heading relate to all California indians.
Here are the section (alphabeticly):
# appearance and dress
# attacks and uprisings
# basket made by
# battles with
# beleifs of
# boats
# burial, cremations, etc.
# dances
# dwellings
# employment of
# expeditions against
# foods
# horse and cattle thieves
# legislation concerning
# medicines and medicine men
# in the mines
# mistreatment of
# mounds made by
# pictures of
# rancherias or villages
# reservations
# salt journey
# sickness amoung
# slaves and servants
# surround hunt
# temescales (says: see Sweat houses)
# trails
# treaties
# weapons
# as witnesses
# women
Also worth noting
# tribes and groups
# ceremony, myths and religion
# minerals (the book I have now)
# language of (the other book I have now)
# as guides (not directly mentioned by name)
Now, I should say this as an outline would take about 2 years or more, but the benefit is that much of it is already written. True much of it is old, but some (like treaties) we (we being me and the rat in my pocket) may just never get to it. In any case, it's just an idea. Your thoughts?
Lastly, I have no real problem traveling with my bike. The train will get me along the peninsula, then most places have regular bus service, even Half Moon Bay. BART I can catch in Fremont or the SF Airport, if need be. --meatclerk 07:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's archive settled conversation this has reached 11 pages.  I am just not sure how thats done. Maybe I need to go find out. I have Milliken on order now that I know his importance. This list of topics are idea/starting points (but there may already be a list of priorities set by the Native American Wikiproject page for example). Alphabetical won't work for me. I also suggest a "Notable Ohlone people" section at end the main article is called for. If you feel motivated all the power to you. Goldenrowley 19:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Outline