Talk:Complex event processing/Archive 1

message: *This section has been removed.  Listing of selected companies can be seen as representing bias or endorsing more weight on a few "selected' companies.  It's probably best to continue keeping sections like this out of the article in order to maintain Wikipedia's Neutral point of view Hu12 01:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your point, however I think it is important to provide NPOV lists of major products in an area - it's one of the key strengths of WP. I often use WP for this purpose when researching a product. The list can be improved, but I definitely vote to keep it. Anyone else? Ronnotel 02:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: * As policy states, Wikipedia is not a repository for lists, directories or Advocacy of commercial products and/or websites. NPOV requires views to be represented without bias, this applies not only to article text, but to companies, products, external links, and any other material as well. Although it may have been helpful in the past, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a comprehensive list of companies, products or external links. Hu12 06:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But I believe there is still a way to include examples of the major products in this space that still conforms to WP policy. Quite frankly, excluding all mention of the products makes this article fairly uninformative. Is there no middle ground? Ronnotel 13:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Hu12, I would appreciate a response to my request about middle ground - if we take your interpretation to the extreme, all mention of commercial entities would be stricken from WP. I think it is possible to describe the major products in this space in a manner that is consistent with WP policy. Do you disagree? Ronnotel 15:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sure you can understand Wikipedia's reasons for having these policies. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, its not for individuals or companies to promote products or websites that they have an interest in. However, I'd like to help you by suggesting Yellowikis which can be found www.yellowikis.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page here for something of this nature. Hu12 16:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no particular ax to grind - I have no interest in any of these products per se. However I am interested in the product space in general - and because the space is in large part defined by the available products, I believe it does a dis-service to the reader to exclude all mention of them. There are literally thousands of references to products in WP - do you believe they should all be removed? If not, can you point me to an example of one that does meet WP policy in your view? I'm not saying that the description that was removed was optimal - however I think it is rather narrow-minded to simply assert that no products can be mentioned. Ronnotel 17:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Dissagree. Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, WP:NOT an internet guide or directory. Also these conflict with Wikipedia policy.--Hu12 11:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Here is my opinion (Stanford, English + Software Architect of Options Trading systems)  Hu12 is incorrect in removing commercial references.  Ford and Ferrari are two manufacturers of commercial products whom the Wikipedia's usage admits on a regular basis.  Their products are examined microscopically and enthusiastically.  Stanford and other universities are also commercial institutions full of bias about CEP/ESP  (and I have over 30 years of experience, should scientific data streaming from high energy accelerators and mass spectrometers be considered early examples of ESP.)  More examples abound of commercial products being admitted for discussion and reference.  Wikipedia defines itself as "An encyclopedia, encyclopaedia or (traditionally) encyclopædia is a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge."   "All branches of knowledge" does not exclude some branches.  It is the practitioners, both professional, scholarly and certainly the day-to-day users whose aggregate opinion is what we seek when we consult the Wiki.  Once final example, check out "wine caves."  Scott Lewis is the leading professional engineer of wine caves throughout the Western US.  He gets money for his services.  His article on wine caves is a great contribution to those who are not professional practitioners.  Il.marcuccio 13:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Hans, if you examine the j2ee article, you'll see that it's been flagged for cleanup.  The addition of the product links is against Wikipedia policy, as explained above. Bardcom 22:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Products

message: ATTENTION!
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on a forum, please note that this is not a majority vote, but rather a discussion to establish a consensus among Wikipedia editors on whether a link is suitable for this encyclopedia.  Wikipedia has policies and guidelines to help us decide this.
Nonetheless, you are welcome to participate and express your opinions. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.  Happy editing!
Note: Comments by suspected single-purpose accounts can be tagged using 
 <noinclude>
A rather determined Hu keeps removing the link to www.complexevents.com and cites a number of reasons.
The discussion to date is here: [ Discussion between Hu and Bardcom on the link to www.complexevents.com]
Please vote on whether you believe it is a worthy link to keep in the external links section, or not by editting this section and adding your vote under the correct heading (sign by using four tildes ~ in a row.  Thank you. Bardcom 15:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a reply to Hu, it is more than a blog aggregated results page.  It also contains complexevents.com/?p=149 use cases, [http:// complexevents.com/?p=14 research papers], the (latest version of the) Event Processing Technical Society [http:// complexevents.com/?cat=15 Glossary of Event Processing Terms], links to [http:// complexevents.com/?p=57 Rule Languages], etc, etc.  All of this material is hosted and downloadable directly from the website.  Perhaps you are basing your opinion on solely the News section, which is often busy (especially recently, since the latest EPTS meeting was held on Sept 17th, and Gartners inaugral conference on Event Processing was held on Sept 19th). Bardcom 17:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: There seems to be an ongoing debate about the inclusion of a link to the CEP website , complexevents.net. Mr Hu seems to be under the impression that the site is commercial. It is a not for profit website operating at a loss, and its purposes are well documented in http:// complexevents.com/?page_id=3.
Mr Hu would be well advised to read the following categories on the site:
1. research papers: http:// complexevents.com/?cat=14
2. articles: http:// complexevents.com/?cat=3
3. use cases: http:// complexevents.com/?cat=16, including the presentations at the CEP workshops:
    http:// complexevents.com/?p=149
    http:// complexevents.com/?p=150
Mr Hu would also be advised to note the links to academic research projects on the home page; this will be expanded shortly to include 5 more research projects. In addition, the website is a candidate to become the official website of the Event Processing Technical Society, a newly formed organization and proposed Special Interest Group of the ACM.
If the link to this website is not included, then the interests of completeness of the Wiki entry would dictate including all individual references to research and fielded applications on the site.
I think Mr Hu's opinions are somewhat hasty and ill informed. He should reconsider.
00:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments By Mr Hu  on the Complex Events entry 

message: I propose that product links should be included on this WP page.
I assert that the arguments against these product links are invalid as follows:
1. There is no WP policy banning commercial links. The policy says that they are to be avoided, not that they are banned. If those links add significant value to the information on the page, then they should be included. In other words, if a discussion of CEP is not complete without referencing products, then those product links can not be avoided. In the interest of completeness, they should be included. For example, editors feel that the J2EE page would not be complete without these links.
2. It is wrong to exclude product links only on the basis that they might represent bias. If these links provide significant value to the page, then they should be included but should be clearly marked as being biased. This method of editing is described in the WP:NPOVFAQ .
So the question at hand, as far as I can see, is whether product links provide significant value to the understanding of CEP. I say that these links are crucial to understanding CEP because only through the product links can someone really get a good picture of the capabilities of modern CEP.
Since the product links are crucial to understanding CEP, I propose that they be added back to this page on CEP.
--Hans
Hgilde 20:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal: Add product links back to this page 

message: Mr. Hu,
I have been watching your deletions of technology-related links for quite some time.   You appear to have a special interest in CEP, MOM, middleware and other technology topics, which leads me to believe that you may be a technologist yourself.
I challenge you to visit the Unix or the Linux wikipedia pages and start removing all the commercial links to ATT, GE, HP, Sun Microsystems, RedHat... the list goes on and on.    I don't think you will find your actions accepted there, to be frank.
It is not possible to visit the universe of technology and draw a black and white line between technology and technology implementations and companies; as you have taken on yourself to do in this particular technology domain.
I am glad you finally stopped removing the complexevents.com external link; but your actions over the past few months on the CEP site and others demonstrate that you take a very narrow view of the guidelines; but the same guidelines are not applied to other technology areas that are well written wikipedia pages.
Taathagata 02:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A Note to Mr. Hu on Commercial Links