Talk:Selbstschutz

message: The two types of Selbstschutz are so different that they need to be organised in two separate articles, maybe prefaced by a disambiguation. Trinitrix (talk) 09:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the term in German is very broad and different organisations must not be grouped into one article only based on the name. Only the ones which are legally connected to each other (successors, branches), should be together. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 09:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Selbstschutz and Selbstschutz

message: I added an POV tag because of statements such as:
"In the Silesia region Selbstschutz militia engaged in attacks against Polish activists and newspapers, and harassed the local Polish population. Its organised units fought against the Polish national liberation movement in the Third Silesian Uprising aimed at abolishing German rule over Poles."
now come on, "National Liberation Movement", "abolishing German rule over Poles", LMAO, that is some of the most blatant POV pushing I have ever seen.
"Poles imprisoned in those camps (consisting of men, women and youth) in the majority were murdered in cruel ways"
Okay, seriously, what other type of people are there besides men, women and youth? unless Poles have an extra fourth type of human that no other group does(sarcasm), why is that which is in parenthese needed?
:In the Polish version of this section, there is a more detailed description: "The Poles who were imprisoned in those camps, including women and children, were mostly murdered in a cruel way. Those who were shot were finished off with spades, sometimes they were buried alive. Before being shot to death, women were raped and forced to put their children in the digged pits." Therefore, in my opinion the form of the sentence in question is not the reason of POV, but lack of more detailed information. The paragraph simply informs how each of the mentioned groups was treated. To avoid NPOV accusations in future, maybe we should add the phrase I translated. --Oronárë (talk) 00:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: After adding this section, i realized it may have been a bit trivial, and being a Mennonite, i wouldn't be the one to judge that.  If anyone has any strong opinions, feel free to voice them or make changes.MennoMan 23:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is trivial, but I do think it is misleading. For example, there were atrocities against the Mennonite population, but they came months after the Selbschutz had been founded. See http://libcom.org/history/makhnovists-mennonites-war-peace-ukrainian-civil-war 72.66.63.221 (talk) 01:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This should be incorporated into the main article.  Other articles about the Russian Mennonites also advance that opinion, based on Smith, despite the research by Libcom.
Given the nature and character of the Russian Civil War, it would be  wrong to suggest that had the Selbstschutz not existed, that atrocities against  the Mennonite population could have been avoided. This conflict was brutal against all civilian populations and it is naïve to assume that Mennonites could have avoided this if only they had not formed a Selbstschutz. The reality is nuanced. In many cases, the Selbstschutz may well have saved civilian lives; in other cases, actions of the Selbstschutz may well have provoked retaliation - such is the sad reality of civil war.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.14.56 (talk) 16:22, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mennonite Groups 

message: I believe this suggestion was made before - it does seem like this article could use a split into two (or more) separates ones; one on the post war civil defense organizations used in cases of natural disaster and the second on the historical para-military units responsible for mass murders and war crimes during WWII committed on Poles, Jews and Czechs. A third possible article is on the Mennonite units of the same name active during the Russian Revolution in the Ukraine - there's some overlap here with the early forms of Selbstschutz of WWI (it might make sense for this also to be separated out), since these were organized with German backing, but I think the Mennonite organizations were distinct enough to have an article of their own. The vast majority of sources under the subject matter "Selbstschutz" are either on the WWII organizations and their role in the Holocaust, or on the Mennonite one. The stuff on civil defense and even the WWI version get scant coverage. Thoughts?radek (talk) 04:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: Honestly it is awfully chaotic, and I guess maybe splitting it would improve understandability too. Clearly one thing written about here are the first para- then military groups of Germans living in Poland, and that could be one article. The other meaning(s) need another article.
The article doesn't seem to stick to any kind of chronological order either, making it difficult to follow.--109.196.118.133 (talk) 01:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  I suggest a complete re-write is needed 

message: As noted since, 2010 this article is a mess because it combines several organisations that share the name Selbstschutz. They are clearly not the same thing or have any relationship to one another. This article should be a disambiguation page to the separate articles. 86.160.110.186 (talk) 12:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another request 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I propose that this article be split into multiple other articles that would have a clearer scope:
Selbstschutz (Mennonite),  and Selbstschutz (World War II), although the latter could be merged into the Volksdeutscher Selbstschutz. Actually, Selbstschutz itself should be about :de:Selbstschutz, which apparently is civilian self-defence against natural disasters and such. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting proposal