Talk:Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein

message: Wittgenstein really cannot have been shot down by a Mosquito. He was in the bomber stream at the time, and Mosquitos never flew in the bomber stream because the bombers would fire on any twin-engined aircraft. They were not 'escort fighters' in that sense. Instead they acted as pickets, many miles from the bomber stream, or else they patrolled near German night-fighter bases to catch the enemy taking off or landing. Alfred Price, in Battle Over the Reich, Ian Allan 1973, , p.109, quotes Wittgenstein's radar operator Fw Ostheimer: 'Yet again I had a target on my search equipment. After a few directions we again sighted a Lancaster and after one attack it caught fire in the fuselage. The fire then died down, and we moved into position for a new attack. We were again in position and Major Wittgenstein was ready to shoot when, in our own machine, there were terrible explosions and sparks. It immediately caught fire in the left wing and began to go down. As I heard this the canopy above my head flew away and I heard on the intercom a shout of 'Raus!' [get out!]. I tore off my oxygen mask and helmet, and was then thrown out of the machine. After a short time I opened my parachute, and landed east of the Hohengroenerer Dam, near Schoenhausen.' 
Dr Price continues (pp.109-110), 'Two of the returning bombers reported having shot down Ju88s in the area of the target, and it is possible that one of these was flown by the Prince... There were four German aircraft lost that night, and these link up with the three aircraft claimed by the bombers' gunners -- the two Ju88s already mentioned, and a Messerschmitt 110. The fourth aircraft the Germans lost could not have appeared in any British victory claim: Hauptmann Manfred Meurer, the third highest night scorer with sixty-five "kills", had fired a lethal burst into a Lancaster from below but his victim had then rolled over and plunged into his He219 fighter; locked together, the two aircraft spun out of the sky taking the trapped German crew to their deaths.'
Schoenhausen, where Ostheimer landed, is roughly where the British bomber stream made its 90 degree turn south-west for the 35-mile run-in to Magdeburg, the target. Zero hour was 23.00 (Price p.107) and the leading bombers made the turn at about 22.50. Wittgenstein had joined the bomber stream near the Pathfinder route-marker TIs about 20 miles south of Hamburg and, by Ostheimer's account, made interceptions at 22.00, 22.10, 22.25-30 and 22.40 (Price p.108), over the 120-mile run from the route marker to the final turnpoint. The fifth interception, during which Wittgenstein was shot down, was therefore probably after a similar interval at about 22.50, and he was certainly shot down near the 90-degree turnpoint in the Stendal-Schoenhausen area. That is a good 30 miles from the area 'south of Brandenburg' where a 141 Sqn Serrate Mosquito claimed a Ju88 damaged well after 23.00, so the article is wrong to state that the Mosquito claim tallies exactly with the time and place of Wittgenstein's death. It doesn't. In addition, the Mosquito crew's target had its navigation lights on, which Wittgenstein's aircraft, being in the midst of the bomber stream, obviously would not have done; and the Mosquito crew only claimed hits on the cockpit, whereas Wittgenstein's aircraft immediately caught fire in the port wing and started to go down (and an attacking Mosquito crew would tend to notice a little thing like that).
So: Wittgenstein was shot down while in the bomber stream; no Mosquito ever flew in the bomber stream; no Mosquito crew claimed a German night fighter shot down that night; the only Mosquito claim made was for a Ju88 damaged, while flying with its navigation lights on, many miles away from the site of Wittgenstein's crash and many minutes later; and three RAF bombers did claim German night fighters shot down, and these claims tally exactly with German records. 
So Wittgenstein was shot down by a bomber. Martin Middlebrook, in The Berlin Raids, Viking 1988, , p.231, mentions that Flt Lt TR Thomson, rear gunner of a 156 Squadron Lancaster, claimed a night fighter shot down that night on its second approach -- and only three RAF gunners made claims that night, and these claims are consistent with German records, and Wittgenstein was shot down on his second approach. And it isn't physically possible that he was shot down by a Mosquito. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:15, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Hinchcliffe provides an account of his death. You can't delete that since it's sourced, but you can add the info from Middlebrook, et al., as an alternative account.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:47, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now dealt with that matter. I am not terribly happy that Hinchliffe is cited in German translation. Presumably the book in question is The Other Battle, which I have not had sight of. I wouldn't want to disrespect Hinchliffe, as he was apparently a Bomber Command navigator in 1944, but he really should have known better than to suggest that Mosquito fighters ever went anywhere near the bomber stream, which for blindingly obvious reasons they never did. They did *not* operate like Mustangs escorting US day bombers, and instead mounted pickets well clear of the bomber stream. There is no chance at all that Wittgenstein was shot down by a Mosquito. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:58, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally, Martin Middlebrook & Chris Everitt, in The Bomber Command War Diaries, Midland Publishing, Leicester, 2000, ISBN 1-85780-033-8, p.466, say that there were five Serrate Mosquito patrols that night, not three as the article currently states. There were no claimed successes and, as C. Martin Sharp & Michael J.F. Bowyer say in Mosquito, Crecy, Manchester, 1995, ISBN 0-947554-41-6, p.289, no Serrate Mosquito in 100 (Bomber Support) Group -- as opposed to Serrate Beaufighter operations the previous summer by 141 Sqn when it was still part of Fighter Command -- ever scored a success until 28 January 1944, when 141 Sqn's HJ941 shot down a Bf 109, oddly enough without using Serrate, just the old AI Mk.IV set, since 109s and 190s operating as Wild Boars did not carry radar. On 30 January 169 Sqn's HJ711 shot down a Bf 110 west of Berlin, the first Serrate kill by 100 Group. Serrate operations proved disappointing, though, for reasons that the RAF did not realise until 13 July 1944, when Unteroffizier Hans Mackle, having mistkenly flown a reciprocal compass course and run short of fuel, landed his brand-new Ju 88G at RAF Woodbridge, Suffolk, in the early hours, thinking he was somewhere near Berlin. http://aircrewremembered.com/captured-ju-88-radar-nightfighter.html At this point the RAF discovered the relatively new SN-2 radar set, in use since late 1943, which Serrate could not detect. (Serrate IV was soon developed to take account of this, and meanwhile the Window chaff dropped by the bombers was, within days, cut to the SN-2's wavelength to jam it, and the Piperack electronic jammers carried by 100 Group's Forts and Liberators were tuned to jam it as well. By then NF.XIII, NF.XIX and eventually NF.30 Mosquitos with the latest AI Mk.VIII and Mk.X radar, instead of the old F.IIs with AI Mk.IV, were cleared to fly over enemy territory, which was very bad news for the Nachtjagd.) Khamba Tendal (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death 

message: The article incorrectly quotes the Foreman, Matthews & Parry 2004 book, Luftwaffe Night Fighter Combat Claims, 1939-45. One such example is 'victory' number 62, in which the time is written as 21:10 when the book in fact states the time to be 20:35. I suggest someone check each claim and correct the article accordingly.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.190.115 (talk) 21:23, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out, I double checked and believe to have corrected. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:28, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect source quoting