Talk:Guinea pig/Archive 4

message: Ok, we need the pic changed
Here are some candidates (click ont he funyn named ones too, i jsu tlike to mess around with the names)
*:Image:peepeeparty.jpg
*:Image:Guinea_1.jpg
*:Image:August2006pigtures_118.jpg
*:Image:Coronets.jpg
Gerbilfyed4 02:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main Pic changes 

message: Yeah, that attack on the guinea pig page with the first nations people cavies, its from Uncyclopedia
Gerbilfyed4 04:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GRR! 

message: Just wondering if anyone else out there is interested in trying to bring this article up to FA-status. I've been doing some sourcing work on this article, but I've never tried to get an article to FA or main-page status... Chubbles 02:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I do appreciate the work you've done in the last few days to improve the sourcing of this article, to reach FA status, several of those sources will need to be replaced with more  reliable sources; simply citing a web site that makes unsourced recommendations of how to care for an animal is not terribly reliable (if they make a sourced statement, than we should use their source when possible).  In my opintion the article also carries a bit of a "pro-piggie" bent, that I think should really be addressed before it is nominated for FA status.  To get detailed help, check in at the Featured Article Help Desk and they should be able to provide guidence. --Ahc 05:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FA?

message: Just a reminder to other editors, this isn't meant as a discussion forum for raising guinea pigs in general. Random conversation should be moved into its own sections or it messes up the archives. Chris Cunningham 14:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More talk archival 

message: It doesn't present a complete enough summary of the article. Some commentary on their use as household pets etc should be added. Chris Cunningham 08:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh man, I was totally editing that very problem away as you wrote that...Does it need more? Chubbles 09:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Great :) Thanks! Chris Cunningham 10:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro too short 

message: Hi everyone, I have just noticed that the link for note 31, http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-61200-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html, is no longer valid. I am still not sure how to correctly edit notes, so if an experiences editor would do it for me, that would be nice. Thanks. Denial land 02:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm...There doesn't seem to be a link to this site in the Internet Wayback Machine, and I searched the idrc.ca site and got nothing worthwhile. I've been working on getting paper sources for this article; I'll see if I can't come up with a replacement source in the next few weeks. Chubbles 03:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note #31 

message: I've split this to Guinea pigs in popular culture. I'm not a big fan of sections like this, and we're getting a little long to be adding large and indiscriminate lists. Chris Cunningham 09:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular culture section 

message: I've argued for this before, but I really think the list of ailments should be removed. It's a fairly common list of "things which go wrong with rodents" and generally appears to be there for prescriptive value. We shouldn't be encouraging people to use Wikipedia as a first aid manual. This could be put to far better use as a "caring for your Guinea pig" article on Wikibooks. Chris Cunningham 09:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, most of that section is aimed at helping people care for their animal.  I've removed some of the text already (see changes mentioned below) but that list should probably go as well. --Ahc 05:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  List removed. Chris Cunningham 14:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I suppose it's possible, although guinea pigs don't bite very often...but I haven't read anything that confirms that. Chubbles 00:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the plague is contracted from the infected fleas, so biting is not the issue. however, i have been bitten twice, and i thank god it is rare, because it really hurts! the_undertow talk 00:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Health section 

message: I took some time to review this article from start to finish again, and while lots of work is still needed, I think I've managed to remove the worst of the advice and other blatant POV issues.  If you'd like to review all the changes I've made just now see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guinea_pig&diff=114237286&oldid=114123569 .  I think there are a couple sections that could still be removed, either because they are redudent, or because they are badly pro-piggie at the moment. As I've said in the past, let me be clear that some of the advice I've removed I agree with, but I don't think it has a place in Wikipedia. --Ahc 05:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The one real deletion that I wondered about was the section on penicillin. It's rather detailed, but it still seems to me to be worthy of inclusion. As for the rest, thanks! Chubbles 05:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm normally the last one to be saying things like this, but I think some of the removals there were a bit arbitrary. That said, they're always going to be in the article history, so if it helps spur the article onto FA I have no problem with this. Thanks muchly. Chris Cunningham 14:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously I think I was about right, but I'm happy to be corrected.  My sense about the penicillin is that it was too small a detail to be included in an encyclopedia, not that there was a problem in how it was presented (heck it was probably the best sourced content I cut).  The other major section that has reappeared is the part of about housing males and females together; my major problem with that is that I find it poorly worded if we're going to keep.  I'll try to rephrase it instead of removing again. --Ahc 13:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think what was removed was a sentence that said, "The sex of a guinea pig may be determined by looking at the genitals." That's too general - it's true of humans and most other animals. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to add a more detailed description. Chubbles 15:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Chubbles is quite right about why I pulled it.  I don't think there is a problem with the information, I just didn't think that expression of it wasn't helpful.  I would favor a description over an image (since it would be hard to get a good one) if people want to try again. --Ahc 15:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's too general.  With many mammals it's difficult to distinguish the sexes, especially in young animals.  Many rodents come home from the pet store and the owners are surprised to find out the sex later on.  I think that a description of the genitalia, without photos or line drawings, would be useless to anyone but a trained biologist.  This was my second attempt to get the information included and I would appreciate your help rephrasing it rather than a blanket rejection.  Basically, if the article is to mention husbandry at all, it has to say two things: give Vitamin C, and don't breed females after 6-9 months.  The only way to avoid breeding GP's is to know whether you have males or females, which isn't as easy as it sounds. Haber 21:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added a few comments on sexing in the Breeding section. Chubbles 08:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits and cropping March 2007 

message: I'm Peruvian and a great admirer of guinea pig cuisine (Cuyes).  I'm surprised that this listing is so sparse on that subject.  I'd like to contribute some information and photos, but apparently I'm not allow to edit.
:you just made an edit ;) please remember to sign your posts. also remember, this article is about an animal. the fact that it is a food source is only a minor part of its existence. you could start guinea pig (food) if you feel it is notable. read chicken and notice how the article focus more on the biological existence of the animal, and less on the ways it can be deep fried :] the_undertow talk 00:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True, there isn't really much about preparation of the meat or anything...I'll see what my Morales book says about that. Check back in a few days. Chubbles 00:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: I just added a few sentences... Chubbles 00:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i think that going into preparation would really belong on its own food page. after all, the food section of the chicken article is smaller than the guinea pig article. lobster really conjures the image of food to me, but there are but 2 sentences about it as a food source. the fact that something 'can' be digested is really deserving of a footnote on the page about the species. however, as cuyes is notable, i think that it should be found in a page on peruvian culture. just food for thought. <--- bad pun. the_undertow talk 01:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Food 

message: "alfalfa is also a popular food choice but as a legume rather than true grass hay is too vitamin-rich for any but pregnant and young guinea pigs. Hay provides long-strand fiber essential to good digestive function, and a constant supply of hay is a good way to occupy a guinea pig's natural inclination to almost constantly forage."
I want this backed up with a reputable paper source. The only references I can find for this statement are rescue sites; none of the books I have on biology of guinea pigs have anything negative to say about consumption of alfalfa products. Furthermore, many commercial pellets are alfalfa-based. Certainly this appears to be conventional wisdom among pet owners, but out of six resources on biology, diseases, and care of rodents, none of them cautions against alfalfa use. (One of the edit summaries says, "I don't know what books you've been consulting..." - but you do. They're all cited in the references section.) This source  recommends it as part of a diet for "growth, reproduction, and longevity" (p.106). Chubbles 02:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: cited - Alfalfa hay should only be given to pregnant mothers and growing babies. Alfalfa hay has too much calcium and other nutrients which can cause bladder stones in guinea pigs. the_undertow talk 03:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the source I cited above - published by the National Academies Press - is a more reliable source than that website. Guinea pigs have been studied extensively; if alfalfa is bad for them, there will be published studies about it. Please find at least one to support this statement. Chubbles 03:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i see a few problems here. IF something is bad, there WOULD be published studies? that is highly speculative. im sure there are many toxins that have not been researched. second, i see a dichotomy here. if my source (#20, as of now) is the same source as #11, why  did it arbitrarily become unreliable? its either a good source, or its not. the_undertow talk 03:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been trying to find a source to eliminate ref #11 for some time now. I agree with Ahc that rescue websites are not reliable enough for inclusion here. As for "there are many toxins that have not been researched" - well, if they haven't been researched and identified as toxins, then they can't be called toxins on Wikipedia. Encyclopedic content must be attributable to a reliable source - it says so every time you edit. Chubbles 03:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, im quite familiar with the sources hyperlink. since you seem insist of 'a reputable paper source,' i think i will have to insist on which part of this page makes cavy spirit unreliable. and it seems that there is quite a consensus among vets and cavy owners that alfalfa can cause health problems, so im inclined to believe that you are correct, there is a study somewhere, out there, that has been published. until we can find it, i think cavy spirit is reliable the_undertow talk 03:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please find it. Lizabeth Terril's The Laboratory Guinea Pig (CRC Press, 1998) states: "Guinea pigs have a high requirement of various amino acids...Alfalfa is a common source of this protein. An adequate amount of fiber is necessary for digestive tract function in guinea pigs. This requirement is also frequently met with dietary alfalfa" (p. 39). I have now provided three sources in favor of alfalfa consumption by scientific publications. This leads me to believe that the online sources are providing unreliable information - that is to say, their statements are false, so far as I can tell. Chubbles 03:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Constant foraging is already mentioned in the Diet section. Chubbles 04:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: i like the idea of the controversy. it is a good resolve, and quite frankly, one i hadnt thought of. however, 'routinely' following 'published scientific' is pushing it a bit as far as POV goes. the_undertow talk 04:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with the removal of "routinely". Chubbles 04:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you have to be. i already removed it. <----ribs Chubbles in an effort to lighten the mood ;) the_undertow talk 04:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: i really look forward to seeing this article on the main page. ive had this on my watchlist for awhile and have seen the amazing work, especially by chubbles, that has been done. the_undertow talk 04:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Diet edits

message: I think for the benefit of guinea pigs and potential pet owners, we should add a section in external links for state/national guinea pig-specific rescues. any objections? VanTucky 05:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Under "Pet Resources", Cavy Spirit (a rescue/adoption site) is listed. Did you have another site in mind? Chubbles 05:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rescues in EL section