Talk:Administrative divisions of New York (state)

message: This page could stand a great deal more wikification.  There are many terms used here which have adequate free-standing articles and should be properly cross-referneced. 18.24.0.120 05:19, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: (Untitled)<!-- section heading added by JBC3 -->

message: The phrasing "The definitions of the political subdivisions of New York State differ from those in most other states" seems a little strong to me. To be honest, I see very little in this article that is dramatically different from most other states. older≠wiser 03:01, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
:Most states do not have the term "hamlet".  "Villages" in other states tend to be unincorporated, as are "towns" (though "townships", a term not found in NY, are incorporated) (see town and village). In most states, there are large areas administered directy by counties, where there in no lower level of local government. All areas of NY have govt. below the county level. I'm  not saying all states vary, but enough do that some clarification is useful (not to mention for residents of other countries). Also, my rewrite was a rewording without changing the essential meaning of the intro. since the article was created. If you feel there is better wording, please be bold. Nelson Ricardo 03:27, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
::True enough about hamlets, although all states have the equivalent sort of small unincorporated communities. There are quite a few states that do have incorporated villages. NY Towns are the direct equivalent of Townships in other states (although not all the states that have townships utilize them for governmental purposes) and there are other states with Towns in the same sense as NY. I still think the phrasing is misleading in implying that NY political subdivisions "differ from those in most other states". I think that is simply untrue.  There are some minor variations, which are to be expected, but overall the basic scheme is quite recognizable as more similar than different to that of many other states. older≠wiser 12:49, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
:::I know I'm late to the game, but both of the other two states in which I've lived, Iowa and North Carolina, have unincorporated land in the counties.  NYS does not, from https://www.dos.ny.gov/lg/localgovs.html "Every citizen in New York State that does not live in a city lives in both a town and a county."  NYS hamlets are always part of an incorporated local government, usually a town. The old introduction may not be too strong, if correct, a survey of states may be needed. User:JohnMc May 2, 2017  —Preceding undated comment added 21:02, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: Those were both wrong. I have corrected them (although the former does have a qualifier, duly noted).Daniel Case 05:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Largest and least populous towns

message: For lack of a better place to put it: /Disambiguated divisions --SPUI (T - C) 00:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguated divisions

message: The proposed bill recently cited in the Hamlet section will likely not pass on two counts: 1) it is poorly written and uses unofficial terms such as "unincorporated village" (if it's a village, it's incorporated) and 2) hamlets do not have defined borders, so it would be impossible to develop statistics for them.  --Nelson Ricardo 06:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And where is Hamlet "officially" defined in NY State law? --- Skapur 15:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not.  Hamlets have no "official" existence under N.Y. state law.  --Nelson Ricardo 16:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Fortunately, Wikipedia's is designed for the masses, not the elites and should incorporate common usage.  On Long Island, the common usage is village for unincorporated communities as reflected in the name of a myriad publications and the names of a lot of localities.  Examples: Old Bethpage village, Three Villages area, etc. --- Skapur 15:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is here to educate and inform, not to perpetuate popular misconceptions.  If a hamlet is popularly called a village, this can be noted, but we must also note that it is not a village in the legal sense of the word.  --Nelson Ricardo 16:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  Villages are Villages on Long Island. Long Islanders incorrectly call Hamlets, TOWNS (only a non-Long Islander would say Village). Not too many people say their from the Town of Hempstead. Example: "What Town are you from?", People would just say their from Levittown, Merrick or Uniondale, etc. 69.122.197.26 (talk) 16:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think its not only on Long Island. Every citizen of New York call the "places" same as any other American - name of the place is not dependent on the status of the city, but on the size of the place. For example, instead of "village", most people say "town", instead of "hamlet", people say "small town" or "village". The main problem is with people who search for the places in New York State, find the place and see "xyz is the TOWN in xyz county..." - people think its normal town - place which is larger than village but smaller than city. But in fact, "town" in New York is only civil township or district or divison. This is very confusing not only for non-New Yorkers, but for all the people. --Novis-M (talk) 19:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hamlet 

message: I do not understand why this page should not be in the Geography of New York category.  There are two basic types of geography: natural and political.  This article definitely falls under political geography.  --Nelson Ricardo 17:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: This article says "Each of the five boroughs of New York City is coextensive with one of its five counties."   This is generally thought to be true, and it is, but with an exception that makes it not be true:  Theres a small piece of what is geographically in the Bronx, Marble Hill, which is actually part of New York County, and used to be part of Manhattan.   When the Harlem River was re-routed in the early 20th century, this piece of land (less than a square mile) was attached to the Bronx by filling in a canal, but is still part of its old borough.  Capek 21:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Marble Hill belongs to the borough of Manhattan and the county of New York, so I do not understand how that makes the statement incorrect.  The fact that the land is physically attached to the Bronx does not change its legal status.  --Nélson Ricardo 21:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Marble Hill belongs to the borough of the Bronx, but the county of New York.  My understanding is that this is only of consequence to those who commit a crime in this area: apprehension would be by police of a precinct in the Bronx, but prosecution would be by the District Attorney's office in New York County. Capek (talk) 03:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boroughs vs. counties 

message: Can someone please clarify something for me?  The article says that cities are mostly autonomous.  Does that mean that they are not under the jurisdiction of the county?  What I mean is, is a city in New York like an independent city in Virginia, or does the county still have some involvement in operations (like sheriffs and courts)?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jzcrandall (talk • contribs) 06:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: NYC aside, cities are part of a county, but are not subordinate to it.  There are no "independent" cities, as in Va.  Counties provide certain services and levy taxes across all municipalities.  (Again, NYC aside, I believe cities can straddle county lines.  I'm not sure if any actually do.  Villages do; towns can't.)  —Nricardo 11:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: You may want to read http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lgss/pdfs/Handbook.pdf for greater insight.  —Nricardo 11:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: See the 4th paragraph of the "Village" section. --Nricardo (talk) 11:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Also, search for " and " at List_of_villages_in_New_York. --Nricardo (talk) 11:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

text: The village of Saranac Lake, New York is part of 3 towns and 2 counties. To my knowledge, the only city to cross a county border is New York City --JBC3 (talk) 15:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Looks like the city of Geneva, New York is in more than one county. --JBC3 (talk) 16:20, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cities

message: http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lgss/pdfs/Handbook.pdf has been updated.  I'll try to see whether there is any new material of interest.  It may take me a while to turn my attention to this, so if anyone else has an interest, go for it! --Nricardo (talk) 12:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated handbook 

message: A few sentences from the "County" section don't add up:
*"There are sixty-two counties in the state."
*"Five of the counties are boroughs of New York City and do not have functioning county governments."
*"Twenty-seven counties of the State operate under the general provisions of the County Law."
*"Twenty counties have County Charters."
If my math is right, that only accounts for 52 counties.  How are the other ten governed? --Jfruh (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some counties missing? 

message: This subsection (Similarity to New England towns) seems as though it doesn't quite fit in with this article. Even so, the information therein could be folded into the Towns section in some way if it were relevant, I would think... --JBC3 (talk) 23:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and it has simply wrong information or at least outdated. It implies that there are boroughs inside towns in NY but not NE. To the best of my knowledge there are no longer any boroughs in NY except for the five that make up New York city. Often these boroughs were the genesis of future counties from larger countiesThere used to be boroughs within counties (though to my knowledge never INSIDE of a town) such Schenectady was originally a borough of Albany County, then Schenectady County was formed and then the city was formed. In the past there wasnt the rigid structure of towns taking up all the land in a county (except for cities and Indian Reservations or the PC term for them today) and there were "districts" (the town of Watervliet was once a district, today it is the town of Colonie) and "boroughs" and even the Rensselaerswyck patroonship for quite some time had a legal status under the state of New York even though it existed within Albany County (the patroonship even had separate representation to the state convention that chose the representatives for NY to the Constitutional Convention). It also implies that incorporated villages are independent of the town, that is true to an extant and it should be clarified that residents of villages do still pay town taxes (cut by a certain percentage, not the full amount they would if outside the village), villagers often still receive town services depending on arrangements, and town police (if that particular town has a police force) can still patrol issue tickets and respond to calls within the village even if the village has its own police force. Town halls are even sometimes located within an incorporated village.Camelbinky (talk) 05:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similarity to New England towns 

message: Three cities in NY have inner and outer districts, Saratoga Springs, Rome, and Oneida. The outer districts have lesser services and are taxed at a lesser rate accordingly. http://www.nyslocalgov.org/pdf/City-Town_Consolidation.pdf page 3 section heading- Dual Property Tax Zones 
This is often attributed to those three cities being "consolidated city/town governments" (though I cant find citation of it on the web right now, so am going to check actual books next).Camelbinky (talk) 01:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't feel that the information belongs in this article. Special taxing districts exist in several municipalities, not just cities. These districts seem to have more to do with taxing than they do with administration, since both districts are administered by the same government entities and in the same fashion. The only difference, it would seem, is the level of government services each district receives from the administrating governmental entity. This information may be of interest, however, in the articles of the respective cities. --JBC3 (talk) 00:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Rethinking this a little, if I were to put it anywhere in the article, I'd put it under Special Purpose Units of Government. --JBC3 (talk) 00:19, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Okay, if you can find a citation, put it in and see how others receive it. Chances are if it's cited it will be left alone anyway. And I'm not totally opposed to the addition of the separate districts mention if you think it's relevant to the topic. I just didn't think it fit in really. Anyway, let me know what you turn up for a source, and I'll give it another thought then. --JBC3 (talk) 03:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I know you aren't trying to argue or be stubborn. As far as the professor as a source, I don't know that that's passable... not because it would be a COI, but because it's not a verifiable source? But since you brought him up, maybe Hippo43 could give you some insight as to whether it would be acceptable, and if not what alternatives you could pursue. He does seem to be quite knowledgeable about WikiPolicy. --JBC3 (talk) 04:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What section would I put this info in? 

message: New York Law 1886 1:748f is the law that divided the state into towns.148.78.249.33 (talk) 03:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This might be of interest 

message: Anton Nelessen is not a relevant source for a definition of a hamlet. He is not writing for NY, but in very general terms for the entire USA. The fact that one town chose to use his paper to present a boosterish description (not really a definition) of a hamlet does not make his paper any more relevant. The source may be intersteting, but it is used too prominently for a  non-authoritative source --JimWae (talk) 05:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. We should bin it. --hippo43 (talk) 06:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anton Nelessen 

message: Anyone have a problem with removing the Other named places section? Seems rather common sense that places can have names but not be a municipality or hamlet. Thoughts? --JBC3 (talk) 16:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other named places 

message: I don't see why there are villages, what purpose do they serve? I think that'd be worthwhile -- why people want to form them. --AW (talk) 20:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Presumably some local governmental responsibilities which are held by the towns in unincorporated areas are delegated to villages where they exist. It would be useful to note which ones, though. john k (talk) 21:42, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Towns can not do certain functions that a village can. Towns can not make their own speed limits without approval from the state DOT, for instance. A "town court" is actually a state court at the town level, town court is not a part of the town government; a village or city court are separate from the New York State Unified Court System and are part of the village or city government. A village also allows those who form it to have their own zoning and land use regulations and gives them more protection in case of an annexation attempt by a neighboring city (see Menands, New York to read about the incorporation of that village because they were concerned about annexation). In the case of East Nassau, New York it formed because the town was going to allow more open-pit mining and so the people of the three hamlets in that section of town voted and approved the formation of a village to keep from always being outvoted and ignored by the rest of the town. When a village is formed an agreement must be reached with the town on what services will be provided by which municipality, and the percentage of the town tax rate village residents will pay because they still have to pay town taxes but at a discounted rate than individuals in the rest of the town. There is no clear cut "this is what a village does and this is what a town does for the village", it is a case by case decision by the village, the town, and the state which ultimately decides everything. Villagers can and do still vote in town elections and hold town offices.Camelbinky (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This all sounds like excellent material to explain in the article! john k (talk) 02:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the reason for villages? 

message: The sentence in the lead (or lede as some would type) has me scratching my head for an answer, I hope someone can clarify it- "Each such government is granted varying home rule powers as provided by the Federal and State Constitutions." Can someone point to where in the US Constitution home rule powers for municipal governments are "provided" for? The US Supreme Court has been clear in its ruling that municipal governments do not have any inherent right to exist or any inherent rights, "what a state creates a state may destroy" is the quote I learned waaaaaaay back in ps210 State and Local Government (which at the University at Albany the semester after I took it as a first semester freshman it became a 300 level course open only to juniors because of something I did...long story). Am I, and the esteemed justices of the highest court in the land, missing something that the editor of the NYS Municipal Law Handbook knows about the Constitution? As a source it really sucks to tell you the truth, you are always better off looking up the specific laws creating certain aspects of local governance than using the "handbook".Camelbinky (talk) 03:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back to actual gruntwork, no drama please! This is serious question- 

message: What is the purpose of this map, and why the town section?  We cant find or create a proper map of the towns of the state? Though towns are quite small and that might not be informative. Pictures of different types of towns through the section, perhaps some that are unique, like a photo of the combined village/town hall of one of the five towns that are coterminous with their village. Towns are classified by rank, perhaps a photo of a town from each rank. Perhaps a photo of a rural town setting, a suburban town, and an urban town. But please remember downstate is not representative of the entire state, whatever replaces the map should give equal time to the more than 50% of us that dont live in the city of New YorkCamelbinky (talk) 01:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The purpose of this map? 

message: Hello, New York! To defuse the edit war that has started at :Category:County government in the United States, I'd appreciate some additional input on the topic of whether U.S. counties are (1) a level of local government or (2) an arm of state government. Discussion thus far is on my User talk page at User_talk:Orlady#County_government, but we could move it to a content-oriented talk page if desired. --Orlady (talk) 00:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello NY. I am the other side of the edit war. My claim is that although county officials may be elected or appointed locally (i.e. not statewide), the actual county government itself is an arm of the state government. This is consistent with the powers they exercise (elections, law enforcement, etc.). If we could have some academically informed input, I would appreciate it, because the general impression and intuition that people have is that county government is "local government," but to those who actually study political science formally, the difference is known. The compromise that I propose is the persons should be categorized under "local politicians" while the offices should be categorized under "state government." Greg Bard (talk) 00:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Gregbard started discussion of this matter at User_talk:Orlady#County_government. Please don't start a whole new discussion at some WikiProject page. If there is a desire to move the discussion, let's copy the pre-existing discussion to the new location. --Orlady (talk) 02:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  County government in the United States 

message: There is an image in the "Town" section showing a road in Crown Point vs a road in Newburgh. This image caption claims "Towns can vary greatly in many characteristics, as shown here." except this image does absolutely nothing to show how towns can vary in many characteristics, rather it shows the differences in traffic on two roads at the time the images were taken. For all I know Newburgh could actually be a very small town with almost no traffic but was busy one day as there was a quilting convention in town, and Crown point is actually a very busy town that happened to be having a slow day (everyone was at the quilting convention). I don't believe this image adds anything at all to the article and suggest it be removed. 
Potatoj316 (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur. An image of a very built up commercial strip versus a rural farm landscape perhaps? If any town in New York had tall buildings as a pretty cityscape such as Albany, New York, Buffalo, New York, or of course New York City then we could use one of those, but alas, towns in NY suck when it comes to a pretty skyline of tall urbanity.Camelbinky (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unhelpful Image 

message: * Census-designated place: "... comprising a densely settled concentration of population ... that is not part of a city or a village ... but is locally identified by a name."
* Hamlet "a community within a town that is not incorporated as a village but is identified by a name."
So, are differences that a Census-designated place has to be in a densely settled concentration of population, and that a Hamlet has to be with a town (just one town)? --109.53.199.221 (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Census-designated place and Hamlet 

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message: I think there should be a section on electoral districts. Statewide there are congressional districts, state senate districts, assembly districts, judicial districts, and election districts (the basic electoral administrative division). It would also be nice to know how these interact with each other and with other administrative divisions (such as counties and NYC, the administrative divisions around which the boards of elections are organized). In New York City there also appears to be Civil Court election districts. Over time I'm sure more will come up. Int21h (talk) 04:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Electoral districts 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The first paragraph under the "Towns" section states that "[u]nlike most Northeastern states, every square foot of New York is incorporated; all residents who do not live in a city or on an Indian reservation live in a town." (Emphasis mine)
If we are defining the Northeast as the six New England states plus New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, as is almost always the case, then this statement is false. In addition to New York, every square foot of land in New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island is incorporated as well. These account for five out of a total of nine states in the Northeast. I am going to go ahead and change the sentence to reflect this, but I wanted to be clear about my rationale for doing so in case there is a reason for the current wording that I have overlooked. --WhyteCypress 00:46, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading Statement in "Towns" Section. 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090824145435/http://sewanhaka.k12.ny.us/index.php?q=node%2F1 to http://www.sewanhaka.k12.ny.us/index.php?q=node%2F1
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090412162644/http://www.boces.org/wps/portal/BOCESofNYS to http://www.boces.org/wps/portal/BOCESofNYS
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100906102342/http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lgss/ to http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lgss/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050929133314/http://www.state.ny.us/local_acc.html to http://www.state.ny.us/local_acc.html
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:13, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: * Social Services District (New York): Only content is that departments of social services in NY are part of the county, except in NYC. Many government agencies in NY are set up that way, so that's not notable on its own.
* Town supervisor: Largely redundant with the text under .
-Apocheir (talk) 15:56, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding Social Services District (New York), I note that following the above proposal there was an AFD leading to a redirect (to another target; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Social Services District (New York)). So, that seems to have been resolved. For Town supervisor, I support the proposal to merge to Administrative divisions of New York (state) for the reason given. Klbrain (talk) 15:09, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merges