Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 4

message: You say: So this new "Masters" article, which you have invited from me, could also include any additions that you (or any contributor) may feel is essential concerning Chariji, his personal views (e.g., on homosexuality, which Chari himself stated are "NOT Sahaj Marg" as you quoted from a speech
I think that whenever a Master has to be obeyed as in Sahaj Marg, his words become the system and his statements should also remain as Teachings from the Sahaj Marg Material.  When Chari gives a speech, he is teaching.  That is accurate and transparent, and also reflects his tolerance, his acceptance, his compassion and his spiritual "enlightment".  He could have chosen "abnormal" or "not the norm" and it would have been logically acceptable without debate, but he chose "un-natural" and that must stand as a testimony to his accuracy, his tolerance, his intellect and "enlightenment".   
To say that "it is not Sahaj Marg" as an after-thought to at-one for that statement is not like saying that the Catholic Church stand on Homosexuality is not Christ, which we could all agree.     
Christ was compassionate, the Church is not.   But to say that the Pope's stand on homosexuality is not Catholicism, is not accurate.  As long as the Pope has to be obeyed (which power is now severely limited since the Reformation)it becomes Church policy even though it is sometimes "unwritten" or "unspoken" or non-transparent policy.  You are not going to see an "openly gay" Pope in the near future.  We want to see transparency.  The statements of the Master in Sahaj Marg should stay in the Sahaj Marg article and, if you like, also in the Masters of Sahaj Marg page, where and if it is relevant.  The statements of the Master certainly reflect on Sahaj Marg wether Chari says it does or not.  That morality, which Chari calls "being right" is also being "transmitted" by the Master.  And the Abhyasis. who want to be just like the Master, will also think that homosexuality is "un-natural, if they want to please the Master.  And it will be like the Christian "Love the neighbour", and even "love the enemy".  Everyone speaks it, calls it Christianity,  but...then the bombs?? 
--don 06:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the Proposal 

message: May I propose an addition and ordering for the two Wikipedia articles related to the Method, or practice, the Mission, and the Masters, which are three aspects of the Raja Yoga system known as Sahaj Marg?  As I mentioned elsewhere, Sahaj Marg has from its beginning been known as a single system or entity comprised of three distinct but intimately connected aspects - namely, the Master, Mission, and Method - which could be likened to vapor, ice, water, or soul, body, mind.
I suggest expanding the two aspects below thus far given articles to three, adding a separate article about the Masters, Representatives, Presidents, etc.  Naturally, all three articles would be cross-linked. Any and all informed, accurate and preferably cited contributions, including those which are dissenting or critical, should be fully represented according to Wikipedia NPOV policies and traditions:
:(1) METHOD - make more brief with the focused on the "Way" or practice itself, while referencing Mission and Master.
     
:(2) MISSION - Clarify and update MISSION article (which in current form drifts to topic of MASTERS).
:(3) MASTER - add an entirely new Wikipedia article on Chariji and the three (publicly) known Masters in the lineage.  (Perhaps this article could extend to Chariji's recently-named successor?)  All materials in the articles above primarily related to MASTERS could be moved here, e.g., the lineage, how representatives are chosen, their role in the Mission and the Method, any relevant personal views (which may or may not reflect official policy), etc.  This new article and its subsequent discussion page would be the appropriate place for bios, critiques, etc related to any of the the Masters/teachers/Gurus of the system.
:The simple idea of my proposal, again, is that the main reference article remain under the subject-title Sahaj Marg, with only general and brief references to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission and to the Masters. The main subject, Sahaj Marg should focus on the philosophy and technique of Sahaj Marg. (And yes, Don, you're right - there is a philosophy, and always has been -- one of the books by Babuji Maharaj, if I rightly recall, is so titled!)  More in-depth would be the entry (clearly linked from the Sahaj Marg entry) on Shri Ram Chandra Mission.  Secondly, this "umbrella" article on Sahaj Marg would also reference and link to a new article (now dubbed with the working title "Masters").  As proposed, this one will go more deeply into the both the lineage, the biographies, and role of the Masters of this form of Raj Yoga.
With due respect, I feel this proposal is a good one and worthy of calm deliberation in due time. As requested above, it is posted here for others who care to comment or make suggestions.
-- Sakha 09:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Proposal

message: Acceptable to me, for one.  So, with your invitation and kind permission, Mr. Don, I accept and volunteer to write this article in due time and make the changes suggested here.
>Now if you want to add a seperate [sic] article on the "Masters of Sahaj Marg", I agree with you that it would be a good idea and could include the leadership and the different committees etc. (as much information as you can get and keep up to date)...but not at the cost of the other two articles. For the researchers, which I am one, I like the seperation [sic] of the Method (including the Teachings ie written and spoken words of the Masters), and the Organization (political structure, finances and history).
:Okay. This may take a while, since I am moving abroad at the end of the month and have a jillion things to do.  By "a while" I am talking not in days, but perhaps weeks or even months.
>I agree that the 3M's (if there is no conflict with the use of 3M's (i.e. the sticky paper Company) of Chari's Sahaj Marg could be added in the Sahaj Marg page and I will do that.  I will change the heading called: "Gurus and Leadership" to "Masters and Leadership".  Anyone can then add their info on Chari's successor and the other leadership, which I believe should be included.  (there has been some resistance to that in the past).
:Good enough. Changing the heading makes little difference -- to me, at least.
>The page called Shri Ram Chandra Mission, named after Lalaji by Babuji, should remain as such and reflect the history of the Mission founded by Babuji and named after Lalaji.  It is not "Sahaj Marg".
:It is indeed not "Sahaj Marg."  But it is also not simply the lineage and biography of the Masters (see above).  It is or should be, however, about the whole of the Shri Ram Chandra Mission as the associated and legally-required organization (reqistered in some 80 countries), which would include its history, NGO status, current membership totals, structure, etc.
:The article about the Masters, yet to be written, would focus more on the parampara or lineage of the Masters, and add more than is already there.  This does in fact dovetail with the history of the Mission (again my re-arrangement can be "edited mercilessly," by you or anyone afterwards, to use the famed Wikipedia dictum, and is, as are all articles, open to "dispute"!).  So this new "Masters" article, which you have invited from me, could also include any additions that you (or any contributor) may feel is essential concerning Chariji, his personal views (e.g., on homosexuality, which Chari himself stated are "NOT Sahaj Marg" as you quoted from a speech) or any other matters, as long as they are FFR (fair, factual, relevant - see above).
The Five Blind Men and the Elephant
:At this juncture, I confess that I feel like one of those five proverbial blind men, perhaps the one holding the tail of the elephant, who can only describe the animal as being like a snake - and I do bear some battle scars from Shankara-like debates with my elders over the origins of Sahaj Marg and of SRCM! I presume no great authority to write on Masters far beyond my ken, or the history of the Mission, but I do have access to unpublished materials, that eventually, I hope, will go into a book.  FWIW, I've researched this over a period of some ten years, and if you'll kindly indulge a few highlights, I once held satsangh in Lalaji's home in Fatehgarh at the invitation of his disciples and some family members.  I have met and interviewed his Naqshbandi Sufi disciples.  More recently I have corresponded with and later filmed an interview with my respected Sufi colleague R. K. Gupta in Delhi, and studied his two published books (one more is in MS at the time of this writing).  Some things I am not given to speak of, but there is much about the Masters and the Mission that has not been widely known. --Sakha 03:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Agreed: but may take Weeks or Months

message: As well as being unencyclopedic, this section was mostly, if not in it's entirety comprised of copyrighted content from http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Sahaj_Marg .
Sfacets 06:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Q and A section

message: I encapsulated (most) of the quotes - now one can see just how many quotations there actually are, most of the document. 
These need to be replaced with content, and proper headers need to be established for article structure. 
I could do this, but have limited knowledge of the organisation, so my replacements would be limited to 1-2 lines summing up the quotations.
Sfacets 08:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup