Talk:2005 Atlantic hurricane season/Archive 15

message: i've found this on the unisys weather site. Tell me if this should go up now for public interest. weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atlantic/2005 
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.26.91.5 (talk • contribs) 03:07, November 20, 2005 (UTC).
: I don't think we can use those, those seem to be copyrighted. --AySz88^-^ 03:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The National Hurricane Center releases public domain track maps at the end of each season anyways. --tomf688{talk} 03:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  season summary track 

message: The article lists the death toll as either 2779 or 2854+.  The problem is this value isn't verifiable.  I added a  to this value, but someone removed it claiming the citations were in the Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Stan articles.  Well, they aren't: the values in those articles only add up to about 2400.  The total here comes from so many sources that it is hard to verify; today somebody updaed it from 2779 to 2854 - based on what?  Who knows.  The solution is to make a "deaths from storms" table.  Each entry can be easily verified and the total can be easily added.  The table below is a start - once this is completed it can be added to the article and then I'll stop complaining. Jdorje 22:15, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Added some other storms. Hurricanehink 22:52, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Should they be ordered by death toll or by name?  If by name, then we can add other stuff to the table (like User:Jdorje/table), though eventually it will become large and bloated. Jdorje 23:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The NHC will release death toll summaries at the end of the season.  Truthfully, though, we may never have an exact figure, so this may be a moot argument. --tomf688{talk} 01:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I added Gamma (8) to the list and removed the question marks from the other storms as each of those is cited in its article. -- Cuivienen 02:33, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gamma really should have 16 deaths to it.  Eleven in Hondorus, 3 in Belize, and 2 as a TD in the caribbean.   tdwuhs
Should Maria be added? It was extratropical at the time. Even though it is one death, should it be counted? Hurricanehink 17:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes it should. If they determine that Tammy (or TD22) was the culprit in the flooding in New England, those deaths should also be included. Also should the zero-fatality storms (Franklin, Gert, Harvey, Irene, Lee, Nate, Philippe, Tammy(?), Vince, Beta and the TD's) be included to show the statistics clearly? CrazyC83 06:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death toll 

message: There has been one storm named Delta previously: in 1972. Since it would lead to a forced disambiguation, here is how I think it should be handled:
#Once Delta forms, a disambiguation page, Tropical Storm Delta (disambiguation), should be written with the links to 1972 and 2005.
#If Delta warrants an article, it should go to Tropical Storm Delta (2005) (or Hurricane Delta (2005) if necessary); the date modifier would be required.
#Only if Delta is really a notable storm (would be retired if it is named normally) should it get the main article.
Basically, it should be treated like any other storm that has had its name used. It is unusual to talk about it at this point, but instantly giving it the main article when not required would isolate the 1972 storm. CrazyC83 07:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Jdorje 07:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The problem with arguing disambiguation isn't needed between tropical storms and subtropical storms is that you have to find the line somewhere at which disambiguation is needed.  Is disambiguation needed between a Hurricane and Typhoon with the same name?  What about a Hurricane, a Typhoon, and a Tropical Storm?  What about a Cyclone and a Tropical Cyclone?  Because each basin uses different criteria for naming (and this criteria changes over time), I think the only way to disambiguate named storms is by name, not by type. Jdorje 01:26, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It may become a moot point as it may have to change to Hurricane Delta (disambiguation) soon. CrazyC83 17:26, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to handle Delta 

message: Why are people complaining about the length of the page? There are TWENTY EIGHT tropical cyclones this season. Of course the article is going to be long. Expecting an article about TWENTY EIGHT tropical cyclones not to be long is kind of like expecting water not to be wet. If the 1983 Atlantic hurricane season article was as long as this one, then we'd have a problem. This is not the 1983 season. This is the 2005 five season. There are TWENTY EIGHT tropical cyclones this season. It is a given that the article is going to be long.
Now that that's over with, there are several things that can be changed with zero loss to the article:
*The archive links in each storm section. People don't need their hands held that much. One link in the external links section should be enough. People who are able to navigate this page should be able to use an NHC/HPC/Preliminary Report link page. And Wikipedia is not a web directory.
*The records section. It mentions that Wilma is the fastest-intensifying tropical cyclone on record. Hold on and think for a moment. Does that make the storm notable, or does that make the season notable? I think not. Does Super Typhoon Forrest being the formerly most rapidly intensifying tropical cyclone make its season more notable than any other typhoon season?
*Some repetitive passages. It says at least twice in the article that this is the first season to use Greek letters for naming. Is that really necessary? And the main article link in the storm names section has to go. No other seasons have it.
Miss Michelle | Talk to Michelle 23:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see what I wrote above. The problem is more than the number of storms or presense of additional links.  Instead it is the level of interest in this page, which has made each storm subsection much bigger than those for the previous years.  Compare this page to the 1995 Atlantic hurricane season page.  Note how much breifer the write-up on each storm is.  That is what we need to get back to, but without an excessive loss of content.  You have some good suggestions, the they are window-dressing compared to the more substantial issue of how to organize all the contect that the editors are providing on this storm season. --EMS | Talk 00:50, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The reason for the complaints is that the article is too long.  It doesn't matter how much material it has to cover; articles that are too long need to be split up. Jdorje 08:19, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well that's the debate, isn't it?  Do the articles need to be split up, or do they need to be condensed?   I'm in favor of splitting up, but others want information to be cut out and replaced with an external reference. PK9 21:15, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Splitting it up would be like breaking up a puzzle and calling it finnished, that won't fly. The article is not that long. 66 kb is not that long. This talk page was 150 kb long at one point and no one said a word about that. Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 23:59, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Length

message: The button bar's getting to be a bit long... NSLE (讨论+extra) 00:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see it as a problem until it fills the entire bottom of the screen, which would only hyappen if we have 4 or 5 more storms (highly unlikely). -- Cuivienen 01:10, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm running Firefox with bookmarks constantly open (however squeezed as small as possible). The bar makes the page width grow. NSLE (讨论+extra) 01:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the button bar will stretch the screen with Favorites/Bookmarks open - that's almost a given. However, that shouldn't be a consideration when formatting the article as non-standard screen sizes will always cause problems with Wikipedia formatting. If the button bar stretches the screen when the page fills the entire window, then there's a problem. - Cuivienen 01:36, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I split the row into two; if anyone thinks that's a bad idea (I personally can't think of any reason), then feel free to revert and discuss. --AySz88^-^ 02:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For now it works. It might be a problem if another storm forms. - Cuivienen 03:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Agreed. There's no reason not to use the uppercase forms of Gamma and Delta. Uppercase Delta is far more recognizable than the lowercase form. The lowercase Gamma could be confused with a V. --WolFox (★Talk★) Contribs 05:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right now, there's a one-pixel gap.  There might be a way to make the gap more than one pixel wide, but I can't seem to figure it out, though if anyone knows, it might be a good idea (the same gap should probably also be between the header and the first row, for balance).  --AySz88^-^ 03:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and made the space between rows the same gap as between buttons in a row. --Ajm81 18:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: As for the second row being centered, it might be possible, but I'd wait until January incase a late storm pops up. --Ajm81 18:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Button Bar getting long 

message: The article says the hurricane season offically ends on the 30 November. Is this likely to still be the case given the state of the season this year? Will any formed in December be named from the 2006 list or contiuning along the Greek alphabet? doktorb 07:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They would continue to be named from the Greek alphabet. There have been December storms before, it isn't impossible, but let's hope not. NSLE (讨论+extra) 07:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The cut-off point would be January 1 2006. Any storms after that would follow the names list of the 2006 Atlantic hurricane season. Titoxd(?!?) 08:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  December?