Talk:Kashmir/Archive 2

message: Why is Aksai Chin referred to as a Chinese "occupation", when the other regions are referred to as Pakistan controlled Kashmir and Indian controlled Kashmir?  The Chinese claim it and just because India disputes the Chinese claim doesn't change the facts on the ground - it is under Chinese control.  Let's try and remove all the bias here so that we can move forward and make the page more comprehensive.  I've already noted several (uncontroversial) places where the page could be expanded as I'm sure have the rest of you.  I like the suggestion of dealing with controversial areas in here.
--4.153.221.221 13:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a version without rants about Indian history, consitution and anti-Pakistan allegations is acceptable. Both terrorism things should be cut short and briefly inserted into one section with both sides of the story. Both "Indian state terrorism" and "Modern Terrorism" in a small section of the article is acceptable but NOT in long sections. When people come to look at the Kashmir article, they don't want 99% anti-Pakistani pro-Indian point of view. They want clear factual information presented in a short neat condition and both sides of the story. Hopefully this helps and ends this edit war. --Anonymous editor 02:58, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Please take a look at all the versions in the history and lets find some common lines that we can keep. Lets first focus on commonalities and then we will have them in the article, remove the rest from the article, and then discuss here. Sounds good? IndiBoy 03:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, Absolutely fine with me as long as they are both small, factual and without POV. Please combine various info in Neutral point of view manner. I think we should start edits as soon as possible because a tagged article is an urgent article. Thanks.  --Anonymous editor 03:35, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest you write a section "Armed struggle by Kashmiri militants" and I write "Human right abuses by Indian security forces" sections. Since we possess diagonally opposite views on these, the versions given will automatically be acceptable to both of us. Ofcourse we will further discuss what actually goes in the article. Contributions, suggestions by other editors are welcome and appreciated. IndiBoy 04:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Dispute 

message: This report does NOT appear to be comprehensive as it does not talk about the dislocated Hindu Kashmiri Pandits forced to leave Kashmir. - 203.94.220.231
I am adding extracts of a UN speech by Mr. Menon on Kashmir (http://www.un.int/india/ind29.pdf).
 
1. The invaders led by Pakistan army continued their march along with Jhelum Valley road towards Srinagar on 22 October, days before Kashmir joined Indian Union. Their triumphant march was
temporarily stemmed at Uri, a town fifty miles from Srinagar, by a demilition of a bridge and the gallant resistance of about 150 men under the command of a Brigadier of the Kashmir Army who was killed fighting a memorable last-ditch battle. The raiders managed to construct a diversion about mile long, requiring considerable engineering skill, since, according to "Dawan" of Karachi of 7 December 1947, it was completed in two days- that is to say, in this invasion the Pakistan appears or engineer regiments-their REME-must have participated. It was not possible for them to do otherwise. These men were resisted only by the national militia, by the local populations. They were not welcomed as liberators. They fought a last-ditch battle; they resisted these people.
2. Independent evidence has been offered by London newspapers which in no way could be regarded as being disposed too favourably towards India in these matters at that time. Alan Moorehead, correspondent of the London "Observer" in Pakistan, wrote as follows: "The Pakistanis lookon this as a holy Muslim war." "I read that deliberately, because that is the position even today. India is threatened by a campaign of hatred and preparation for an aggression against is territory. We shall not fire a shot and we shall not allow a solider to leave our borders, but just the same as anyone else we shall discharge our duty of self-defence. The correspondent wrote: "They look on this as a holy Muslim war. Some of them I have seen talk widely of going to Delhi. "Alan Moorehead motored to Peshawar and the Khyber Pass from where this crusade began. He wrote: "Everywhere recruiting is goingon... This is happening not only the tribal territory....but inside Pakistan itself" (Ibid No/.24). That was at the end of October and beginning of November 1947. There is also photographic evidence. As Associated Press photographer, presumably an American, flew over a section of Kashmir and said that he saw more than twenty villages in flames. The villages, in an area ten miles long and ten miles wide, apparently had been set fire to buy the Muslim invaders who were scouring the valley and moving
in the direction of Srinagar.(http://www.un.int/india/ind29.pdf).
3. Baramula, India, 10th November-The City had been stripped of its wealth and young women before the tribesmen fled in terror at midnight, Friday, before the advancing Indian Army. Surviving residents estimate that 3,000 of their fellow townsmen, including four Europeans and a retired British Army Officer, known only as Colonel Dykes, and his pregnant wife, were slain. When the raiders rushed into town on 26th October, witnesses said: 'One party of Masud tribesmen immediately scaled the walls of Saint Joseph's Franciscan Convent compound, and stormed the
Convent Hospital and the little church. Four nuns and Colonel Dykes and his wife were shot immediately. The Raiders' greed triumphed over their blood lust'. A former town official said: 'The raiders forced 350 local Hindus into a house, with the intention of burning it down. The group of 100 raiders is said to be holding another five, as hostages, on a high mountain, barely visible from the town. Toda, twenty-four hours after the Indian army entered Baramula, only 1,000 were left of a normal population of about 14,000 (New York Times" by Robert Trumbull, dated 10 November 1947)
4. That Pakistan is unofficially involved in aiding the raiders is certain. Your correspondent has first-hand evidence that arms, ammunition and supplies are being made available to the "Azad (Invaded) Kashmir forces" (The Times, 13 January 1948)
Ignoring all these, how can the author say, it is a free movement by tribal people?It is terrorism (so called 'Jihad') by religious extremists sponsored by a military/mullacracy against a secular democratic republic.
--66.185.84.71 06:20, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Human rights abuse

message: I know it's touchy, but how about these 
,
(made by the CIA) -- they seem pretty objective, just with better resolution than ours. Or how about a satellite image,  (by the NASA). dab (ᛏ) 19:18, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: better maps?

message: Pakistan calls the northern region 'Azad Kashmir'. India calls it 'Pakistan occupied Kashmir'. Mention of both would be POV. Arrive to a single term that doesn't offend both sides and remove the POV message --Neo77 11:27, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: The article mentions little about terrorism in Kashmir . --IncMan 15:10, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
::On the contrary, there is a clear mention of three different sorts of separatist groups, and how they are viewed by the Indian government. If more is required, then setting up pages for some of the larger groups, whether militant Islamic - Lashkar-e-Toiba - or secular secessionist - the JKLF - would be a good idea. No need for that on this page. Hornplease 01:04, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrorism

message: There was a massive blanking of most of the sections by . I'm not sure which of his edits are ok and which are just vandalism, but could the regular contributors to this page take a look into the diffs? Thanks --Ragib 21:21, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massive blanking 

message: Please check out the URL : http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/18/international/asia/18stan.html
Quoting from the above news :
" LAHORE, Pakistan, July 17 - The Pakistani military said Sunday that it had killed 17 people, including women and children ... "
Check out the URL http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-436es.html. Quoting from there ...
"It was a result of tactical considerations aimed at limiting the losses that Islamabad would suffer because of the collapse of the friendly Taliban regime in Kabul..."
Wondering what real Kashmiris think about the prospects of turning their current paradise into a Taliban waterhole?
And since London bombings is in news ... Check out the URL : http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Pakistan-focus-of-London-bombings-probe/2005/07/20/1121539035189.html?oneclick=true
Again quoting from above " Britain is pressuring Pakistan's government to clamp down on madrassas - or religious schools - that are suspected of spreading extremist ideology."
QED  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by  24.6.83.184 (talk • contribs)  4:59, 21 July 2005 UTC.
:: For the pseudo-secular Indians: It does not matter whether Pakistan does this or Pakistan does that. The fact remains, that Hindus/Indians have no respect for human life, especially if that human life happens to be of someone who is a Kashmiri. If it's a woman Kashmiri, hindu soldiers cannot help but unzip their pants and attack them wherever and whenever they see an opportunity. It's obvious from the filth hindu Bollywood produces, that a major portion of that hell hole known as India, is sexually starved. So, by full backing of the indian sockpuppet so-called elected government of Kashmir, they rape, and then they rape some more and then they think of how sexy their mommy is, and then they rape even more, day in and day out. But apparently they can never be satisfied. But have no fear: as soon as the messes in Iraq & Afghanistan are cleared up, they will be taken care of, once and for all.
:: How utterly hindu/shameful of you to drag the horrors occuring in London and trying to pin it on destitute people who attend Pakistani madrassahs (madrassah means 'place of learning'). These people, most of whom are mere kids, have parents too broke to send them to normal schools, so they send them to free Pakistani madrassas. They can't even afford a decent meal, and you're telling me they somehow were able to mastermind intercontinental sophisticated, terrorist attacks a world apart? I don't think so. So stop your stupid lies.
:: I haven't seen one shred of evidence that the London Police has any bloody idea who did what or what's going on. Have you seen the suspect pix released today? NONE OF THEM LOOKS LIKE A PAKISTANI. One looks white, the other black, another with the rucksack, positively looks INDIAN and not Pakistani, and the fourth looks like a hindu. I'm beginning to wonder, if these attacks were not orchestrated by bloody hindus? The Village Idiot 22:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  For the Pakistani Sock Puppets, Pseudo-Kashmiris, Fanatics and pseudo Human rights organizations 

message: I was looking into the huge monologue on the "Claims to Kashmir" section, and it looked completely incoherent, and somewhat a dump from various persons. What does Pakistan's internal "prosecution of minorities", "Lowering of minority population" have to do with this section, let alone this article? Also, what is really the significance of the statistics on India, Pakistan and Indonesia's muslim population and rankings? Next, what is the meaning of putting Azim Premzi/Wipro etc there!!! What on earth Mr. Premji has in common with Kashmir? Seemed like someone took a collection of rants/opinions/monologues from the Internet and pasted them here.
As a person not affiliated with either of India/Pakistan, I would propose to present facts and shorten the section only to that: India claims Kashmir for this, Pakistan claims that, and Kashmiri people claim whatever they do. This section really should not speculate why any country's claim should prevail over any other one. For references to terrorist activities, that should be brief, and most content should go to Terrorism in Kashmir. 
How does that sound as a plan? This article is a hot area for a flame war/edit war, so I don't want to touch it without having a big discussion from all parties here. But I guess everyone would agree to the irrelevance of the most of the contents of this bloated section, which is almost completely incoherent at its present state. So, please give your opinions on that. Thanks. --Ragib 22:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon reading the talk page's comments above, I realized that this has been a big issue in the past, and caused huge flames/rants. Let's be constructive this time, and make a balanced, polished section. --Ragib 22:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of content 

message: Too much, or should I say 80% of the current article dwells on history, and accusations of India/Pakistan against each other. I think the article needs to be organized properly, and duplication of content should be discarded. Also, some relevant, but missing sections need to be there. I added stubs for Economy, Demographics etc sections. Other sections may be included. Kashmir is one of the most beautiful places in South Asia, it is a shame that the article is now a incoherent rant/counter-rant ... rather than focusing on information about the land, people and the cultural heritage. --Ragib 07:54, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of the article 

message: Mr. Singh goes to D.C. And what does he do when he gets there? He bad mouths next door neighbor Pakistan. The scene is a lot like a kindergarten playground, where a 5 year old little girl in pigtails runs off to the teacher to snitch on another little girl. Observe the following fictional girl I'll call little Miss Piggy in an all too common scenario in real life playgrounds of the world:
"Teacher, teacher, you know what Jenny just did?" Miss Piggy asks the teacher triumphantly, her face beaming.
"What?" her teacher asks irritated.
"She peed in the bushes again, hehehehe". Miss Piggy diligently points where Jenny is answering the call to nature, as she continues her infuriating giggling.
Expecting the teacher to go running after bad old Jenny, for peeing where she wasn't supposed to, she looks up eagerly at the teacher, her face now flush with anticipation.
"Oh, this is gonna be sooooo goooood!" Miss Piggy thinks to herself.
But instead of investigating Jenny's bad deeds, the teacher pulls out a Colt 45 and points it at little Miss Piggy's face. Just as Miss Piggy tries to open her mouth to say something, the teacher presses the trigger and blows poor Miss Piggy's  fucking brains out. A headless Miss Piggy falls to the ground - as all the surrounding children break out in cheers accompanied by a thunderous applause.
Upon hearing the gunshot, the principal comes rushing out to the playground in a panic.
"Oh my God, what have you done?" He frantically asks the teacher.
"Oh nothing...I just shot Miss Piggy". The teacher calmly replies, smiling to the Principal.
"Oh, Ok. Never mind. Good job. I should've done it myself, a long time ago." The principal says happily and heads back to his office, whistling,
Glory glory Man United, Glory glory Man United...
as Miss Piggy's cold dead body languishes in the playground, a lone bee buzzing over it.
The fictional scenario illustrates this point: Manmohan Singh goes to D.C. and complains about and bad mouths Pakistan. Doesn't he know that the only reason US even spits on his face is because US wants to counter balance China? The US knows EVERYTHING that Pakistan has done and it doesn't care about it. If tomorrow Pakistan launched a preemptive strike on India and erased it from the face of the planet, the US won't give a fuck about it. 
Listen to me Mr. Manmohan and understand this: The US does not give one fuck about India. Your shit country has to live with Pakistan. It has no choice in the matter. Instead of acting with some dignity, you go and prove that you ara after all a bloody sikh, with his head firmly lodged way up his filthy worm ridden ass. 
You also expose your continued slave mentality. And the fact that you do NOT know how to speak English. The world had a much better image of you - UNTIL YOU OPENED THAT BIG FUCKING MOUTH of yours. Next time, have some self respect and don't go to far away places only to snitch on Pakistan, when you know full well, that the US relationship with Pakistan is the strongest it has EVER been in history. Do you know what all those bored white men in congress were silently thinking while pretending to listen to your god awful and incredibly stupid speech? They were thinking, "Oh, shut up, you stupid taliban with your stupid taliban turban." Next time, just keep your trap shut - it'll do you a whole lot of good. Please don't let your ass do the talking for you again. The Village Idiot 04:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Over 50 years after independence, the Indians still have a slave mentality

message: You know I've been reading in these pages on wikipedia the repeated claim that India is a secular democracy. And I couldn't understand that how can an illegal occupier of land in Kashmir ( as judged by the United Nations resolutions), can claim to be a democracy, until I bought the Indian Dictionary of Standard English to find out what the definition of democracy is in India. This is what it says in the Indian Dictionary of Standard English under the defintion of democracy:
:: Democracy: a system of government that publicly characterises its policies or actions in a manner contradictory to the actual purposes and/or effects of those policies or actions. (from Gr. Demo-: to pretend, put on a show + Gr. -cracy: strength, to govern), democracy (noun) An illegal of occupation of land that does not belong to a country. Also see: hypocracy (synonym).
And then I said to myself, Oh I see, that's what they mean by democracy. Now it all makes sense. 
So, from now on, whenver you read, 
::India is a secular democracy,
substitute it with, 
::India is a secular hypocracy.
Hi there,
From your rude interpretation above, I know its next to impossible to change your view on the secular fabric of India. I dont blame you for your thoughts because you have to come and live in India to understand how the system works here.
I am myself an Indian from Chennai (earlier called Madras) which is in Southern India and can be described as the heartland of dravidian culture. We, 'Madrasis' differ from our northern, western and eastern Indian bretheren in ALL aspects of life. We look different, our lifestyle is different, our language is different and in some cases even religion. Will you believe if I said that most people in my state can't understand the National language - Hindi? Yet, we consider ourselves Indian. 
I do not say that India is perfect. We have our own problems. We have had to deal with Babri Masjid, Gujarat, Punjab (Sikh suppression), LTTE (tamil nadu and northern srilanka) and insurgency in our eastern states. But with all these issues, we have stood the test of time. Whenever you point out the negative aspects of secularism in India, the above mentioned incidents are the ones you mention. But inspite of all that, you will find that Sikhs are the ones who are most patriotic in India. Conduct a poll and you will find that almost all Indian Muslims will want to stay in India (even given a chance of moving to pakistan). If the right wing Hindu parties like the BJP tried to infuse communal tension, it was predominantly Hindu-yet-secular India that drove them off power. 
A standing example of the secular fabric of this country is the fact that it has a Roman Catholic woman leading the party in power at the Indian Union with a Sikh Prime Minister and a Muslim President - all the the healm of affairs in Hindu majority India. We love Abdul Kalam, Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi as much as we do Vajpayee (who you must know that most Indians feel is the 'right man in the wrong party').
So, hereafter when you talk of Kashmir, please dont invoke religion. Given the problems India has had from the Pakistan's policy of bleeding India to death followed by Bangladesh - a hotbed of terrorism, LTTE and its suicide bombers in the south all supplemented by an unstable monarchy in the only Hindu kingdom in the world and a an aggresive dragon to the north of it, any person woth the right senses would certify it to be a secular. Again I say - it may not be perfect. But it is improving. 
With your claims on religion, think for a second on how well Pakistan or Bangladesh have fared with an Islamic regime? It is often termed as a failed state that envies the development of its wealthy neighbor. If you need to talk about religion again, talk when your country is doing well and does not depend on America and China for money - all of which it throws in madrassas, weapons and terrorists anyway.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit. :) The Village Idiot 14:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: India is a secular hypocracy (not democracy)