Talk:500 (card game)

message: I'm going to swap terms "left bower" and "right bower" - the original author had them confused. I checked three websites to make sure my understanding wasn't just parochial. The "right" is the jack of the trump suit, the "left" is the jack of the other suit of the same colour. -- Tim Starling
:Note although the German playing card decks have a "B" on the jack or knave card, it actually stands for "Bube" not "Bauer". Group29 (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Incorrect usage of "Bower"

message: I always thought the standard rules for four handed 500 had the black 4s removed not the red. I've never seen it played the other way. Is it an error in the article? - Tobin Richard
I've always played by removing the 4 of spades and the 4 of diamonds.  Then, the 4 of diamonds or 4 of spades is considered trump, if hearts or clubs are trump, respectively.  This rule makes sense, because it ensures that there are always 13 trump, and counting trump cards is an integral part of strategy.  We would similarly play a two person game with 23 cards, including two 7s.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.92.96.23 (talk) 03:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Rule Variations

message: Someone back there said that 500 is a staple of family get togethers; I agree, but this entry does little to facilitate growth in that area. Only a few sentences in, on the "Rules" or "How to play" section (which is for some reason called "Setup" in this article) the reader is confronted by a variation in the number of cards that should be used in a game. Personally I would start losing interest around there.
Now I know that the primary point of an encyclopedia entry is to be informative, but structuring this article such that it can be used to easily learn how to play the game need not detract from that.
I propose opening with a brief history and description followed by, as the backbone of the article, a definitive set of rules. Variations should follow (original rules, New Zealand rules, Martian rules, etc) with each giving some kind of reckoning of it's popularity and also it's caveats. The definitive set of rules that heads up the article should be the most popular version in play today; I believe that's the Australian rules. In my personal experience the Australian rules place an emphasis on highlighting what is different about Euchre and 500 and makes the element of risk involved with the bidding as great as possible (no partner communication is tolerated unless it is in the form of a legitimate 6+ bid). I think if people think the bidding needs to be made easier because it's just to stressy for them, then they should be playing Euchre, but we'll include the variations to keep them happy. While I'm on a roll, other ways in which variations of 500 can be found wanting is allowing a Misére bid before bidding has reached 7 no trumps; once players realise how easy it is to complete such a bid, this can ruin gameplay. Joker play during a no trumps bid can also foul things up.
The article should trail off with a more comprehensive history, along with other snippets, anecdotes and trivia.
John McLeod's page does a pretty good job (http://www.pagat.com/euchre/500.html) has he been invited to contribute?
Thoughts?
...
:John is maintaining his own site which predates Wikipedia. If he opens up his site to allow the text to be copyrighted, he may lose a significant source of revenue. Much of the material in this article clearly has been lifted from his web site (Nullo rules and Granola for example). He would be well within his rights to declare copyright violations. Also, Wikipedia is not a "How to" (see Wikipedia:GAMEGUIDE ). Note that the US Playing card company created the rules, which may or may not be copyrighted themselves. The game rules have been published also in a number of "Hoyle" guides. I would guess that in Australia, the Australian rules are the most popular variant. Perhaps the article should just describe the game and link to John's site. Group29 (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to rework this page?

message: there is no tactical reason for a misire calls before any 7 call...
can a player call open misere imediatly after a 'closed' misere call?
: Since you only get one bid, if you have a Nello hand (what we call misere), that's what you bid, even if you're the first player. On your second question, subsequent players can bid anything they want as long as the bid is higher (except double nello and double exposed nello, which can be bid only if your partner bids nello or exposed nello, respectively). So, one player can bid Nello and the next Exposed Nello. - grubber 15:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsigned Question

message: Those remarks in the article about the Joker being called "the bird" here in Australia seem a bit ridiculous. Never heard it called anything of the sort. And the note about sometimes the Joker card having a picture of a kookaburra - well, I suppose there might be some decks with kookaburras. There'd also be decks with landmarks, cars, naked women and so on. Hardly worth noting in the Wikipedia entry for 500, though, I'd have thought.
I reckon those remarks should either be supported as being particularly true of Australia (which I don't think they are) or should go. MrLefty 02:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On that subject, is there any source for 500 being the "national" card game of Australia? I know some enthusiastic players, but I've also had to teach almost everyone I know because hardly anybody knows it. There are a lot of card games that are better known here. And I'm sure that 500-specific decks exist, but again, they aren't widespread - all the play I've seen of 500 has been on a regular deck with cards removed. 203.217.150.68 (talk) 03:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Coles supermarket sells Queen's Slipper French Decks and 500 decks. 124.170.206.205 (talk) 06:44, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Quaint "Australian" remarks

message: Is there more than one person playing the French Canadian version of 500? How else could someone make the assertion that the game is mainly played at family reunions? 75.32.164.201 02:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, is there any reason at all to include the French-Canadian Version? Especially in its current state, where it somehow deserves its own section and table, and is written in an entirely unencyclopedic tone. Nik-renshaw (talk) 21:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  French Canadian version? 

message: There are far too many WP articles bloated and made confusing by authors’ felt need to cover every variant and exception. As others have noted here, this might be OK for the aficionado, but the novice (and this is who we are catering for) gets confused and bored. There are exceptions and variants to EVERYTHING. The best way to deal with them is to note this at the outset, then present the common, standard case (in this case, the game as played by a majority of players), and briefly detail the variants at the end. If more writers followed this commonsense rule, there would be a lot more vigorous, clean and useful articles in WP. Myles325a 02:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Group variants and list at end (recommendation) 

message: I'm wondering if anyone happens to know about Wikipedia preference of gender in single-person pronouns. This article makes a lot of use of "he" to refer to a player, and I'm aways hesitant to overuse such terminology. Anyone know if there is a preference against this, or of a way to alter the usage? Nik-renshaw (talk) 22:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See the Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language section linked from the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Maybe read this discussion if you want: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (gender-neutral pronouns). Gender neutral is preferred. Thanks Group29 (talk) 18:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Gender Neutrality

message: Does anyone happen to know if the titles of marketed games should be italicized? I have a feeling like they should, but I've done some limited searching and uncovered no mention of it. I've found that specifics of style are always more difficult to find on the internet than in comprehensive scholastic volumes, which I happen to be sorely lacking. Thanks. Nik-renshaw (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italics / Style 

message: Do the following sentences belong in the setup section, or even in the article at all?
"Bower is an Anglicization of the German Bauer, a word meaning farmer, peasant, or pawn. This name is often used to refer to the jack of German games. This is important later in the game, and is usually known by newcomers as the hardest part to learn about the game.
In Australia decks of cards are for sale especially for 500, with 11's, 12's and red 13's included."
I feel like the second may find some place in "History," perhaps, or in the lead, just as a note that decks exist specifically to accommodate the game, but I can't seen any reason for the first section about the history of the word "Bower" to be in this article, especially since this is just a variant of Euchre, which also uses the Bower. If no one responds, I will likely remove the first section and move the second relatively soon. Nik-renshaw (talk) 21:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Setup 

message: I can find 11's, but no 12's or red 13's on Wikimedia Commons. Please upload the missing cards to Wikimedia Commons. --88.78.4.195 (talk) 08:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be here tomorrow............:) ! You know what, too much talk on very little work. This article should already be in a more advanvanced level of development. All card game articles are now being standardised. More important, it's not about writing an article that nobody has ever dreamed of writing, but adding precious information for millions of people who are desperately looking for answers. Dating period card games and trace their lineage should be a common goal. Till tomorrow......:) ! Krenakarore (talk) 22:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  11's, 12's, and red 13's 

message: Best not to colour the headlines, per the style guides adn accessiblity. Rich Farmbrough, 15:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Colour

message: Phrases like "do not do it justice" and "excellent" in the intro don't conform to Neutral POV.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.93.137 (talk) 21:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: 500 is still played by many in NE Iowa SW WI and SE Minn and there are many social card clubs that get together monthly in members private homes to play. It is not commonly played in bars in this region, the card game of choice there is usually Euchre or Bid Euchre  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.174.242 (talk) 07:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background