Talk:Ex-Mormon/Archive 3

message: The first paragraph is all anecdotal. The social status - how Exmormons are viewed by members of the LDS church is not. It's actually scripture. Greenw47 16:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it was anecdotal at all, it was the only academic category in the entire article. The psychological part refers to the idea of recovery, which is a sociological and psychological phenomenon. It is also backed by overlapping theories to describe it, specifically cognitive dissonance and cults and mind control. It would suspicious to leave it out and have any psychological case against Mormon culture or need for recovery. 166.70.243.229 16:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Psychological status?

message: The last part of the first section is actually duplicated in the reasons for leaving. Also, it is not cited. Please feel free to put back in with citations. Also, I'm adding internal links (after exploring wiki a bit more) and finding that much of this has already is written and stabilized. Greenw47 03:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Simplifying

message: The scope is getting too broad and we have let Exmormons and Jack Mormons overlap. If anybody has a better way, please let me know. But this is how I understand it: 
* Exmormons - active or inactive - current or former member of record - main characteristic is that they have differences with LDS beliefs. 
* Jack Mormons - inactive - current member of record - no disagreements with church teachings. 
* Cultural Mormons - active - stay for social ties - no disagreements with church teachings.   
In an effort to cover all bases, we now added that a Jack Mormon is somebody who "often, but not in all cases, have no disagreement with LDS beliefs." By definition, a person who is inactive and has a problem with church beliefs would be an Exmormon, since Exmormons can either be members who are current or or former members of record who have differences with LDS beliefs. 
Hopefully, I haven't been too wordy, and my explanation has been clear enough. But it seems very apparent to me that we have an overlap. Actually, if we want to differentiate Exmormons, Jack Mormons, and Cultural Mormons, we could make a table. 
In the alternative, we could take out the definitions of Jack Mormon and Cultural Mormons altogether. No need to reinvent the wheel; just and add internal links. This article is only about Exmormons. Anybody else vote for simplifying? 
For now, I've commented out the extra text, which can easily be put back in if there is a compelling reason to put it back in. Cheers! Greenw47 20:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the links and descriptions must be in there (cultural Mormons have disagreements if they so describe themselves that way, because they are presumed to be attending and not fully Mormon). this is because they serve to delineate the position of the Exmormon much more clearly compared to the options and it is important information. These help understand the compelling social risk involved that the others do not always take (explained in the last sentence, but not explicitly--which I will fix.) A table would be in error, because tables are theoretically absolute and we're just describing tendencies at best. I have no problem with the way it flows now. Anon166 20:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exmormon, Jack Mormon, or Cultural Mormon

message: This article is getting stablized and debate has either cooled down or moved to other articles. Can we remove the NPOV warning yet? Greenw47 17:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose that tag be moved to the "further reading" section, which will denote the section as having a POV offered by church employees, with undue weight and allusions to Exmormons, who are job required to never agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church as grounds for termination. This limits their scope of balance and determines a slant. Anon166 18:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_messages/Disputes
Not sure exactly what you mean. Greenw47 03:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: On second thought, I would leave it in. After we are gone, people will always vandalize this article and it pays to have a standing warning because the article will not stay this way. Everyone normal instinctively knows what it means. Anon166 05:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Placed less severe POV warning as first step to delisting. Anon166 15:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: To suggest there are both sides to Exmormonism is evidence of an extreme bias and opponent mindset (POV pushing). Anon166 17:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary, I'm merely demonstrating that the article still reads like there are "sides" with both Mormon and exMormon apologetics in play. No need to justify anything in the article, just state the facts. the article as you stated, should not have "sides." -Visorstuff 21:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: By the way, Visorstuff, we found the anti-Mormon article that you are involved with, and it appears your self-imposed standards here are insincere as evidenced by the uncited and contradictory disarray you implicitly sanction, or perhaps wrote, over there. I was already suspicious after you maundered on about "paradice" here. Anon166 17:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, personal attacks on my intent are not needed, I'm well aware of the history of the article, having tried to salvage a very POV page prior to its current version. You obviously haven't read much of the history of the article and why itis in the shape it is. If you ever do read the history of Anti-Mormonism article and critisicm of Mormonism, you'll realize the current form of the article was never supposed to become the article. It was merely an outline of topics that were being research and should have been included that was pushed live by other editors. You have no reason to judge an incomplete thought. Similar articles include the "misperceptions" article discussed above, Blacks, Mormonism and Mormonism and Judaism and criticism of Mormonism. They are a mess (as are others), and all involved are more than understanding that they need help. However, as with Exmormons, we haven't found many Anti-mormons who are willing to cooperate to discuss anti-Mormon activism. There are few who keep level-headedness in editing. I don't understand why you continue to attack my intent. You know nothing of me, other than I'm LDS. Your hate for me is ridiculous and unnessessary as you have never met me. -Visorstuff 18:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe the simple fact that you are LDS may be all the reason Anon166 needs to become enraged?  It is not logical, but it appears very real for him.  You know me well enough that I enjoy some personal jousting, but at some point it gets tiresome and I would rather focus on editing the article.  Regardless, at some point it will have to stop.  Storm Rider (talk) 18:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stormrider, apparently you are projecting rage onto me here and it made you tired. Anon166 20:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: In that case, let's bring those up point by point, and iron them out. I don't want a person who has no contact with the LDS church to read this and think either 1) This was written by somebody who left and now hates the LDS church; or 2) This was written by a member who wants to make those who leave look stupid. My dream for this article would be to make it look like this: If a space alien dropped to earth today and observed exmormons, what would he/she write about them? Silly, I know, but it works. Greenw47 13:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I made a few changes and added a line that incorporated Winell's book in the list, as matching the rest of the paragraph, but I wasn't signed in, just so you know it was me and not the other guy. 166.70.243.229 18:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: aka Anon166 18:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Are we NPOV yet?

message: I've removed the section accusing an editor of sockpuppetry from this talk page. It did nothing to contribute to the article and served only as an attempt to defame the reputation of an editor who has contributed positively for months. Please keep discussions on topic and civil. Tijuana BrassE@ 20:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:NPA