Talk:Lebanon/Archive 3

message: I've altered the first sentance because it sounded like the IDF forces were captured inside Lebanease territory, a statement that wasnt even varified by the sources given! And also was contradicted by the next paragraph. I will include the alternate point of view now.
Note: I have left the original sources for this bar one which was removed as a dead link
--Rick browne 14:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Events 

message: I have deleted some passages that are neither balanced and not relevant (bold has been deleted):
"Initially, fighting began between these Palestinians (referred to as "anti-Lebanese militias" by some) and the indigenous Lebanese "leftists" (the communists and socialist parties). As the fighting intensified, the sides involved became more distinct. On one side was the Christian resistance led first by Bachir Gemayel and later by Samir Geagea. The other side comprised a coalition of Palestinian refugees, Sunni Muslim, and Druze forces who were united in their detestation of the 1943 National Pact. The (so-called civil) war left the nation with no effective central government." --Emirbachir 18:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civil War 

message: I have removed the word "accidentally" in referring to the Israeli bombing of the UN post. The facility was hit 15 consecutive times, so I guess that doesn't qualify as an accident. Also, you should check whether the damage was caused by an air strike. I believe it was ground artillery. Even so, the attack was certainly not accidental, which the next paragraph confirms (if it was a "tactical necessity" then that implies it was premeditated). And even if they were bombing the area close to the place and "accidentally" hit, why didn't they call the UN personnel and warn them to evacuate, just as they do in Gaza where they call people and tell them to get out of their houses before shelling them. Israel was just trying to show that no one can tell it what to do to scare the Lebanese who had hope that the UN wouldn't just sit with its arms folded. LestatdeLioncourt talk 12:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oops?

message: I have erased the "eradicating personal freedoms" part where Syria's effect on Lebanon is discussed. Now I'm not doing this in support of Syria, it's just that I can very well remember many people who spoke openly of the Syrian influence (or domination if you wish) on the Lebanese governemnet and critisized such an invlovement. However, the rights of Lebanses citizens to freely express their ideas and thoughts has been guranteed throughout Lebanon's history, which has certainly been (to say the least) the most deomcratic country in the Arab world. LestatdeLioncourt talk 15:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal Freedom

message: I added the French name of the country, since it is an official language. Take a look at Afghanistan, where the name of the country appears in both official languages.Heja Helweda 04:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French Name 

message: I believe that section is not very accurate, it mentions that the palestinians were pushed out of beirut by the joined syrian-maronite forces, to my knowledge the palestinians continued to control significant areas in beirut until the israeli invasion & seige of Beirut in 1982, I also didn't understand what(Ezzat)stands for.
213.42.2.23 12:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Syrian intervention and consequent occupation of Lebanon

message: I propose that the article be semi-protected (again) but this time permenantly. It has clearly become an arena for political debate and having it open to more and more people is the last thing you want. LestatdeLioncourt talk 09:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Semi-protection was declined a couple of weeks ago. LestatdeLioncourt talk 06:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Semi-Protection

message: I'm just so, so sick with all this debate that's going on around here. Here's what I'm going to do: I will move the "History" section to the end of the article and have all the other (neutral) sections pushed up. I think some of the most important aspects of Lebanon (such tourism and superior education) are being drowned in all the continuous obssessing over whether Christians or Muslims are the majority in Lebanon. If you're truly a patriotic Lebanese citizen maybe you should focus more on bringing positive light and publicity to your country, instead of making it look like it's a country full of politically-OCD people. We're just coming out of a war and Lebanon's tourism has been devestated (knowing that it is the most productive section of the Lebanese economy, along with commerce). Why don't you take a minute off and consider that maybe, just maybe, it'll help your country more to focus on topics like touristic attractions than to ramble politics?
Once I have a decent tourism section ready (everyone is naturally invited to participate and propose ideas here in the talk page), I am going to do the changes I just mentioned. I will also cut down on the History section as much as possible, just providing links to relevant articles. Seperate articles can be written (or already exist) about sensitive issues... maybe the debate can be taken there. 
Anyways, here's my proposed new outline:
#Introduction
#Geography
#Adminstrative Divisions
#Demograhpics
#Economy
##Commerce
##Tourism
##Agriculture
##Industry
#Education
#Culture
#Histroy
#Links, resources, etc... (these remain unchanged except perhaps for the spam links).
By section 4, the reader will have some basic information about Lebanon, like location, area, and     population... no need to start right away with the civil war.
By section 7, the reader has much more detailed and expansive information on Lebanon. Now, the usual symptoms of reading the History section for the first time can be avoided.
LestatdeLioncourt talk 09:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: That's It

message: Since I've noticed that there's been a large dispute over the official langauge(s) of Lebanon, I decided to include French as former official language just so nobody complains. French was indeed an official language, but a consitutional ammendment did make Arabic the only official language of Lebanon. LestatdeLioncourt talk 17:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all guys, I need to remind you to please sign your names. No matter, I'll proceed. In response to the first paragraph, French was indeed an official language in the 1926 constitution. The amendment intoduced in 1943 made Arabic the only official language. Thanks to replier number 2 for pointing that out :)... In response to paragraph 3, I would like to tell him/her that I don't speak French and that I'm not even Lebanese. I only included French as a former official language because there was a very large dispute over the matter, and I thought it would pacify everyone to see it that way (apprently I was wrong). Unfortunately, I don't know any website where you can find the pre-1942 consitution (although it was under French rule, the constitution remains, in official terms, Lebanese). However, I can tell you that if you buy a histroy school book, you will find a consensus on what I just said (that French was an official language in the Lebanese constitution until the 1943 ammendment), which is saying something since consensus is an alien concept to Lebanese history books. I ask you to please leave it the way it is because I really think it seems fair to both parties. LestatdeLioncourt talk 10:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, it's alright. God knows I've made the mistake of being harsh in replying many times. Your suggestion seems right. I must say though that I have seen this form "Arabic, French (formerly)" in a geography book, so it might be a sort of convention. In any case, I want to repeat my request for everyone to do their best to contribute to the other sections of the article (Geography, culture, etc...). Oh and by the way, I do know a little French (not enough to be fluent, but a working knowledge) so I thought I should tell you that it's "La vache qui rit" not "ri" ;). And one more thing, I saw this sort of poll on a talk page for another article, where people post their opinion for or against a suggestion, and I think we might find these very useful here. Look forward for one very soon. LestatdeLioncourt talk 13:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Official Langauge

message: I have moved a lot of the old discussion from this talk page to Archive 2. The talk page was much too large (114 KB), well above the recommended size. A lot of discussion was also old and inactive. And I really think we need more space to discuss future (non-political) changes. I hope every one is OK with this. I also think the To-Do list needs a lot of cleaning-up. Me to the rescue! LestatdeLioncourt talk 18:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived

message: This poll is now closed. Please do not edit.
Please express support for only one of the following options, or add an additional option, with an explanation of your reasoning. Poll closed on September 30, 2006.
===Delete the article, attempt to merge additional info===
#Support - I don't see the point of the article. Changes can be made to the original article, no matter how bold or extensive. There's no need to create a whole new article from scratch. I believe our efforts should be concentrated on one article instead of two. LestatdeLioncourt talk 19:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll #1 - Talk:Lebanon/Temp: To Stay or Not to Stay

message: #Support - I don't see the point of the article. Changes can be made to the original article, no matter how bold or extensive. There's no need to create a whole new article from scratch. I believe our efforts should be concentrated on one article instead of two. LestatdeLioncourt talk 19:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Delete the article, attempt to merge additional info

message: I just went to correct a spelling in the History section, but clicking that section's edit button took me to an article section on sweden.  Weirdest s***.  I'm unable to return to this article anytime soon, so this is just an fyi.  
--Gbinal 15:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History edit button?

message: Editors please note that the abbreviations of the concentrations available to 12th graders are from the French names not the English ones. That's why Life Sciences is abbreviated to SV (Science de la Vie). This is the way the abbreviations are officialy recognized (you can see these abbreviations on www.schoolnet.edu.lb in all three versions of the website: Arabic, English, and French). LestatdeLioncourt talk 13:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Note on acronyms for school concentrations

message: Somebody changed 2006 Israel-Lebanon war to 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah war. To whomever did this, please post here when editing the article (unless it's a minor edit). Still, it's not up to us to decide what to name wars. The events of summer 2006 involving Israel and Hezbollah are now known as the 2006 Israel-Lebanon war, period. I realize you are trying to make a point about Israel targeting Hezbollah only, but Lebanon was directly and invariably involved in the war, perhaps more than any other party, and the widespread damage in Lebanon and Israel bear testimony to that fact. If you change it back, against official conventions, then you'll just be opening the door to all the US-Iran, Israel-Iran, US-Lebanon, Liverpool-Arsenal conspiracy theorists (no offence to any). Let's all just stick to conventions and have a good night's sleep for once. LestatdeLioncourt talk 08:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel-Hezbollah? 

message: To the user who reverted my edit in the Introduction, I just want to say that while I was reading the introduction it felt like too much detail. If someone is interested in finding out how the Lebanese flag is structured there is a whole article for that (plus the picture in the info box). When a reader is just starting to read an article they don't want so much detail right off from the start. Just saying that there are two horizontal red stripes is enough. It's all for the sake of clarity vs. too much information. LestatdeLioncourt talk 11:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag detail 

message: I have removed the following statement:
While his groups attack on an Israeli outpost, its killing of eight Israeli soldiers and its kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers precipitated this present "conflict" it would seem that Lebanon either does not have the ability or the will to disarm Hezbollah and fully reclaim its sovereignity over its territory.
It seems biased, or at least just a matter of opinion. The sentence starts out with a fact (a mutilated one for that matter; four of the dead Israeli died when they passed over a landmine in their tank), but then branches out into a political opinion. The fact can be stated elsewhere (just as is done in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict article), but Wikipedia articles are not the place to voice out political opinions regarding whether Lebanon can or cannot disarm Hezbollah. Also, on another note, the sentence looks grammatically incorrect. LestatdeLioncourt talk 08:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victory celebration 

message: I have summarized the Recent Events section as much as I could, leaving only important facts (although I admit, further summarization may be needed). My reasoning is that a reader coming to this article probably wouldn't be dying to know every single detail about the recent political turnovers in Lebanon. Interested readers will find the many links to in-depth articles about the subject. Now, the Recent Events section just provides a succinct summary of... well... recent events — suitable for the slightly interested passer-by.  At least we've chopped off 3 KBs of the page size, which is closer to the recommended article size. Please understand that I have done my best not to modify the intended meaning of the sentences, but I may have messed up, so if you have any objections please address them here. LestatdeLioncourt talk 18:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Events section summary 

message: I have removed the following two statements from this section:
* The conflict has divided Lebanon into two political camps:  The Pro-Western March 14th Coalition of Christians, Sunnis and Druze and the Pro-Iranian, Pro-Syrian Shiites.
* The Lebanese Broadcasting Company and Future TV reported from the Lebanese-Syrian border and filmed hundreds of thousands of Syrians traveling from Damascus to Beirut to attend the rally.
The problem with the first statement is that it is redundant: this division has been established long before the 2006 conflict. If you insist on keeping it, it belongs rather to the Cedar Revolution section under the Demonstrations subheading. You may also need to modify it a little, because some Christians (those allied with the Free Patriotic Movement) have sided with the Shi'a.
The problem with the second one is a little more complicated. I can't contradict the statement itself because it is partly true (more on that later). The thing is, you're citing two biased references. LBC and Future TV are both great TV channels, but they are not impartial TV channels. It is common knowledge that each TV station in Lebanon belongs to this or that political leader or this or that political party. It is therefore impossible to extract importial, NPOV news from these sources (imagine, for example, what you would have done if I had cited al-Manar TV saying that the rally attracted 1.8 million). I am not disputing the fact. I am disputing the source. If you can find better sources (like CNN or AP) then by all means leave it there. Still, this brings to an even more complicated problem. You see, other TV channels reported that Syrian convoys (certianly not the hundreds of thousands you speak of, and, btw, I was watching LBC and it certainly didn't speak of such high numbers) mainly carried Lebanese people who lived in Syria, just as Lebanese people came from Kuwait and Bahrain to participate in the celebration. If you want to achieve total NPOV in this article, you're going to have to provide all sorts of point of views on the subjects, so you don't upset anybody. This is the main reason why I think we shouldn't talk about these things, because they are just too contrversial to have a place in an encyclopedia (a place for facts not theories). This is only a small section of an article. We can't enter into an endless exhange of theories in it. You might find that the article devoted to the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict is better suited for these needs. 
Remember, I'm criticizing the statements, not you. LestatdeLioncourt talk 08:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statements in 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict 

message: I deleted this sentence: "as well as Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Chaldean, Latin Rite Roman Catholics, Assyrians, Copts and Protestants". I did this because I think it's just way too much to enumerate every single sect there is in Lebanon. A reader who wants so much detail can go to the main article. These sects don't present a majority in Lebanon (with all due respect). I also think only Shia' and Sunni Muslims should be mentioned. By the way, Druze are Muslims, why aren't they mentioned with them? LestatdeLioncourt talk 10:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

message: Hey there Mr. IP 69.172.115.230. I hope you're OK because it sounded like you were having a heart attack when you deleted that image. My advice to you: don't use "extreme" words when editing. 
What I what know is what's so "extremely biased" about the image. I don't remember reading DIE ISRAEL DIE anywhere in there. You should be more specific. However, because you seem to be very offeneded that someone might actually know that there was a war in Lebanon, I am not gonna revert your edit. But I am going to upload another image with the fact box blacked out (which I believe was your complaint). Take a valium and have another look. LestatdeLioncourt talk 11:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image POV 

message: The text in this section was drawing parallels with the French system, which, although initially adopted by Lebanon, is no longer used exactly as it was implemented. English readers are probably not familiar with the terminology of the French education system anyway (the backward progression for example). I have changed it to the layout adopted officialy by the Lebanese Ministry of Education. You can refer to the ninth grade civics book issued by the government. LestatdeLioncourt talk 10:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curriculum in Lebanese high schools 

message: This is still not that case, AFAICT. -- Kendrick7talk 21:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Pact codified in Constitution?