Talk:Andrew Laming/Archive 1

message: The only article which mentioned the Santoro staffer throughout the entire controversy also mentioned the McArdle staffer and mentioned McArdle by name. This article is not available online but has been used to reference the mention of Santoro in the Laming article.
There is at least one further article which mentions the McArdle staffer by name but does not mention that she was working for McArdle, this article is available online.
By not mentioning the possibility that the McArdle staffer could have been the "disgruntled staffer," this article leaves out some of the important speculation around the genesis of the investigation and in my opinion, unfairly targets Santoro and his staff without considering the other speculated sources of the complaint.
Especially given that the McArdle staffer was mentioned in more than one article and the Santoro staffer was only mentioned in a single article which is not available online.
I strongly recommend including the full details of the media speculation on the genesis of the investigation and who the "disgruntled staffer" could have been.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.75.36 (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:BLP - the claims are original research and can be reverted by any editor, as you have not identified any source by which McArdle has been linked in the media to the business at hand. I have done a thorough search of the archives through Factiva and failed to find anything, even though Factiva has all newspapers for the period in question (Courier Mail, Age, SMH, Australian, West and even local newspapers). It does not "unfairly target" anyone - our job here is simply to report what others have reported. People can then come to their own judgements based on what is presented. Orderinchaos 12:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The same article you used to reference the mention of Santoro mentions the McArdle staffer. It's there in the article.
I'd be happy to send you the article text which I have downloaded from Newstext. If you're genuine in your intention to cover all of the speculation on this issue then you should include this part. If it's good enough to reference one part of an article, it's good enough to reference the rest of the same article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.75.36 (talk) 12:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You've used this article to reference the Santoro speculation - Strutt, Sam. "Why Andrew Laming is John Howard's problem child", The Courier-Mail, 10 March 2007, p. 55. 
The same article talks about the McArdle staffer - why are you practicing these double standards? Don't delete content until the debate is over.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.75.36 (talk) 13:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Speculation does not belong on our biographies of living people.  Page protected for one week.  Unless you can provide a source that states a fact clearly, that fact cant be included on Wikipedia. John Vandenberg (talk) 13:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) As an admin I'm among other things expected to ensure that Wikipedia does not get into legal problems because people wish to add non-peer-reviewed information to it. The article in question is a page 55 opinion piece which openly admits to speculation, and does not mention McArdle (I have the text here). It does mention the same-named person, however, and mentions an additional person (by name) who is, according to the article, a Santoro staffer. It also quotes other unnamed sources saying neither could be the one. My actual source however was the Canberra Times article, which stated: "Mr Howard denied any factional involvement in the case, despite state powerbroker and federal minister Santo Santoro having been linked to the matter." Orderinchaos 13:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's your source then you should remove reference to the other article and you should remove reference to the speculation that the Santoro staffer was the genesis of the investigation. As far as I'm aware, Strutt's piece was the only artcile throughout the affair which mentioned any speculation that a disgruntled staffer under the employ of Santoro was linked to the affair. Instead, if you really wanted to mention Santoro, you could just say he was linked to the matter. Plus, the article I have downloaded from Newstext definitely mentions the second staffer working for McArdle. I'd really like you to consider a reword here because I think it unfairly represents the Santoro staffer and doesn't cover the full range of media speculation (which is what this entire article does, it discusses speculation.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.75.36 (talk) 20:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've included the text of the article I have downloaded from Newstext below (in part). Please note that I have removed the names of the staffers mentioned...
"There are also plenty of theories about just who blew the whistle on Laming. Party sources now claim the woman thought responsible, xxxx xxxxxxxx, a supposedly disgruntled ex-employee, had nothing to do with sparking the investigation. She's no relation to Jeff Williams, and was said to have sparked the raids after a complaint to the Crime and Misconduct Commission was passed on to the AFP.
But xxxx xxxxxxxx, who is is about to take up a position on the staff of state Liberal deputy leader Mark McCardle, is ``not your smoking gun, said one source. ``It's just not her style.
The finger was also pointed at former Laming staffer yyyyy yyyyyyy, who recently left his employment to take up a position in the office of factional chief Senator Santo Santoro, the ambitious federal Minister for Ageing.
No way it was yyyyyyy, says another source. He and Laming are still on friendly terms."
Surely this warrants inclusion of the McArdle speculation or removal of any mention of the Santoro staffer. Instead, we could just mention that there was speculation that Santoro was linked to the affair.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.179.75.36 (talk) 20:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Interesting. The text I have says "a senior Liberal figure". Even so, the above is clearly speculation by the authors of the article. If I saw it in an actual article (as in, not a page 55 opinion piece), I'd be more accommodating. BTW I have modified the wording to "person associated with", as a couple of the sources use such wording. Note the text only makes the assertion that such an allegation was made. Orderinchaos 22:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, I'm aware of some discussion on that topic offline. Studying the evidence, I've concluded we're dealing with the debris of a Young Libs internal factional fight in the Brisbane/Gold Coast area, and it's not just at this article. (This reminds me of some of the early 2007 cases involving schools articles.) Orderinchaos 22:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate the change made. I still don't understand how you've weighted the Santoro mention over the McArdle mention in the same article. Seems unfair. Seems like the link to Santoro's been targeted for reasons unknown while the same level of speculation over McArdle has been avoided. Almost as though you're trying to perpetuate rumours unfairly. I maintain that the speculation over a link to McArdle should be included if you are (as you seem) so intent on maintaining the speculation over a link to Santoro.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.27.180.39 (talk) 09:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I made the change because, on consideration, the source we should be using is the Canberra Times as they staked their editorial integrity on it and put it on page 5 as an actual article, whereas the other one is an opinion piece which disclaims editorial responsibility (although it meets the legal requirements necessary to be published, it's not entirely certain that WP:RS would consider it a reliable source without further backup). Interestingly, the new edition of Political Chronicle (part of a generally reliable academic peer-reviewed journal called the Australian Journal of Politics and History) suggests the raid was led by the estranged wife of someone called Paul Lucas. The plot thickens, it seems. Orderinchaos 10:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Just looked him up, he appears to be a current Labor minister. Will definitely have to investigate further. Orderinchaos 10:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The edits just made to the article were sound (only had citation formatting issues which I've now fixed) - I also added the journal link. I hope this points to how this article is going to progress in future. Orderinchaos 01:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Santoro & McArdle Discussion 

message: "Laming is the son of former Queensland state Liberal MP Bruce Laming who held the seat of Mooloolah from 1992 until 2001 and served as Deputy speaker of the Queensland Legislative Assembly." I doubt if this is lead material. Timeshift (talk) 07:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That sentence is there for the time being out of necessity. I intend it to become part of a paragraph about Laming's early life in PNG and such which will sit above the "early career" section. Currently that sentence does not belong in the lower career sections and would look silly sitting on it's own. It's a factual piece of information sourced to a reliable source and I don't see the problem with it being where it is for the time being. Kthx. Sarah 09:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this really belong in the lead? 

message: While serving as Federal Opposition Indigenous Health spokesman in January 2013, Andrew Laming posted inflammatory remarks on social media site Twitter about racial tensions south of Brisbane. At the time, dozens of police are blockading a street in Woodridge in Logan after weekend clashes between Indigenous and Pacific Islander groups.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-15/coalition-mp-tweet-on-racial-tensions-labelled-disgraceful-/4464988
Mr Laming tweeted: 'Mobs tearing up Logan tonight. Did any of them do a day's work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?'
He repeated the comment on Twitter four hours after the original post. Both Members of Parliament and local Indigenous people  have condemned the comments.
Twelve hours after posting the original comment, Mr Laming sought to "clarify" his statement.
To clarify: Working together to resolve these riots the priority. Training and a chance for jobs are key.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.52.136 (talk) 04:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist Remarks on Twitter 

message: The text about Lamings racist remarks on Twitter has been deleted and reposted a few times now in the lead of the article. The text definitely belongs in the article somewhere and given it is perhaps what he is best known for, would placing it in the lead be appropriate or not? Would other editors care to share their opinions? Hughesdarren (talk) 09:06, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's an improvement, but what about the people who defended him? Nick-D (talk) 09:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: I think we, as contributors, need to bear in mind that Wikipedia is not newspaper; Wikisource and Wikinews are such platforms, but most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion on Wikipedia. As a result of these guidelines, I recommend the removal of the last paragraph of this article's 'Political Career' section as it does not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. If other contributors are not agreeable to this suggestion, perhaps a rewording of the last paragrpah is appropriate. Language like "Twitter gaffe" reads like a newspaper, is not fair and balanced, and is not appropriate language for an encyclopedia. Furthermore, the last half of this paragraph does not invovle Andrew or his tweet, but reports on the whereabouts of the Deputy Prime Minster and former Premier of Victoria. Cheers, BL190426 (talk) 00:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political Career 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In this Facebook comment, he links directly to this page. It may be possible that he is editing his own article.--Senor Freebie (talk) 03:57, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Andrew appears to be very conscious of this page 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110706102310/http://www.baysidebulletin.com.au/news/local/news/general/front-bench-for-laming/1944062.aspx?src=rss to http://www.baysidebulletin.com.au/news/local/news/general/front-bench-for-laming/1944062.aspx?src=rss
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've re-removed the infobox photo (:File:Andrew Laming MP crop 2007.jpg). The Commons record gives this Flickr image as the source. The image appears to be photoshopped - Laming's head looks too large for his body, and is at a very strange angle. As the photo was taken by someone protesting against Laming, it should also be treated with a degree of caution. Nick-D (talk) 00:14, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that some caution should be exercised and the photo isn't great or ideal, but I disagree with the assertion that the image is photoshopped and dishonest. Firstly, there is a lengthy discussion above raised by User:Timeshift9 in 2008 about the use of this image, however the main objection seemed to be that the photo originally included the whole bear costume which was inappropriate for a bio profile, and once it was cropped this was not as much of an issue. Secondly, I analysed the photo in Photoshop and cannot see any evidence of digital manipulation (other than the crop which probably was done in Photoshop and why it appears in the EXIF data, but the RGB channels match up perfectly so if this was photoshopped it is an outstanding job); I also cannot find an original of the face in a reverse image search; the angle is a little odd, but not impossible if he was hugging the bear and facing the camera. Thirdly, this appears to be the modus operandi of the polar bear climate protester—ambushing politicians (including Laming, John Howard, Ross Vasta and Kevin Rudd) at campaign events or their electoral offices and getting photos with them holding a sign asking where they are on climate action—frankly, given recent events it seems like hugging the protester for a photo is the sort of "funny" thing Laming would do—and there are no other apparently photoshopped images which seems to indicate that the uploader isn't faking these photos. --Canley (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: Is Andrew Laming married?  There is nothing in the article about his family (only to say he is the son of Bruce Laming, an ex-MP).  So who is or was, his wife/wives?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.30.15.86 (talk) 23:44, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  IS ANDREW LAMING MARRIED? 

message: I feel this page needs to be updated to reflect today's reporting that the MP has misused (and continues to misuse) Facebook. The report from The Guardian (link below) reveals the MP set up 30 fake Facebook accounts to attack opponents, pretend to be an education institution (but was merely a cover for climate denialism) and fake sites purporting to be news sites. Many of these activities are contrary to rules set out by the Australian Electoral Commission.
This page received semi-protected status today, possibly in order to prevent this information being added.
Protecting this page from updates to include this information means readers/uses coming to Wikipedia do not get a full account of this public figure's behaviour.
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/06/liberal-mp-andrew-laming-used-dozens-of-facebook-pages-to-promote-lnp-and-attack-opponents OSINTer13 (talk) 09:59, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a conspiracy—I renewed the semi-protection on the article over a week ago (on 29 March) due to persistent vandalism and BLP violations, not today to censor or prevent any mention of Laming's latest scandal. I agree, that should be added and I'll do it myself. --Canley (talk) 11:05, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Done by Canley. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 23:52, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2021