Talk:James Cook

message: I am hesitant for the lead to end on a note of controversy as I don't think that is Cook's principle characteristic or legacy. I think it would make sense to combine this sentence with the bit about memorials to Cook. Will Thorpe (talk) 09:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just done so. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 09:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There are abundant reliable sources which state that Cook's legacy is controversial. Let's see what others think. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 10:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: A big chunk of that controversy comes from misunderstandings, or people simply believing falsehoods about what Cook did. Every year around every Australia Day here in Australia we see claims about him that are just plain wrong. Many people seem to think he brought the First Fleet here to establish the first British settlement. There are other "misunderstandings". I am certain some of this is due to deliberate misinformation. His legacy IS controversial, but not for good reasons. I don't know how we should handle this. HiLo48 (talk) 10:47, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need to be careful about what is the topic of this article and what is not. The article is about James Cook. Any legacies and controversaries should relate to what he did, not what others did afterwards (in which he was not involved). He left a legacy of cartography of the east coast of Australia, he had interactions with Indigenous people which might be controversial (e.g. the eating of turtles at the Endeavour River which the local Indigenous people regarded as their turtles). But "controversial as an enabler of British colonialism" is going well beyond the topic of this article. Yes, British colonisation is controversial. But Cook wasn't involved in colonising Australia (or anywhere as far as I know). Those were decision of the British Government later on, and some people may have played a large role in each of those decisions but not Cook. The word "enabler" is a classic "weasel word". True, exploring the east coast of Australia led to colonisation, but that's like blaming a poisoner's parents or teachers for the murder because they were "enablers" by bringing a murderer into the world or teaching them that certain chemicals are deadly. Yes, we should mention the damage to statues and so forth, but I think we describe this as a protest against colonialism rather than against Cook. Maybe we should phrase it along the lines of "As Cook's explorations sometimes resulted in the establishment of a British colonyn, statues of Cook have become targets for vandalism by those who wish to protest that colonisation. For example, [list of vandalised statues etc]." Kerry (talk) 05:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. That's very much the position I believe this article should take. HiLo48 (talk) 05:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Cook claimed the east coast of Australia for Britain and there would have been no British colonisation but for this. His statues state that he "discovered this territory". Surely this is part of his legacy. Protests against this legacy are therefore relevant to the legacy section. Indeed, the protests, and the recent scholarly reaction to the narratives of discovery, are probably the most culturally dominant aspects of his legacy today. Whether we as editors think this is misguided is irrelevant; we simply follow the reliable sources. I think the current balance of the legacy section is about right, as there is much more material on monuments etc. than about the reaction against them. As for "enabler of colonialism" being "weasel words" it is a quote from a prominent recent critique of Cook's legacy. It was originally in the lead as a quote with a source. I would prefer if this version were restored as it would show that the expression wasn't just some editor's weasel words. However, the current wording in the lead was the result of a compromise with other editors who preferred stronger language. (The relevant discussion will be in the arhives somewhere.) The Legacy section of the article explains that it was mainly Banks who advocated the penal colony at Botany Bay and it explains the context of the "enabler of colonialism quote." As I said, I think the legacy section is currently about right and I don't see how Will Thorpe's suggested change improves the article or resolves any of the issues you raise. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Cook didn't discover Australia. Obviously not from an Indigenous perspective, but not even from a European perspective, as the existence of some land mass in that area wasknown by Europeans before they dispatched Cook to take more a detailed look at it. It could be argued he "discovered" the east coast (from a European perspective). Which of the citations are you referring to as  "a prominent recent critique of Cook's legacy" and can you include the extract in context if it is not a publicly-accessible source please? Thanks. Kerry (talk) 06:40, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said he discovered Australia, I was talking about the inscriptions on his statues. If you go to the Controversy section, read the sentence on "enabler of colonialism" and click on the reference, you will see the article I mentioned. I can also recommend Proctor's book as a stimulating but wrong-headed discussion of Cook's legacy. The broader point is that in many cases a person's legacy is more about their enduring place in the cultural memory of a society. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I already did that. There are two citations. The first is plainly an opinion piece in a newspaper, and it is not presented as such here on Wikipedia as per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. It is not even written in temperate tone but uses quite emotive language. Not exactly scholarly. The second is a book that I don't have on my shelf so I would like to know what it says. Kerry (talk) 08:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's obvious to me that the problem is nothing to do with anything Cook did, but with what some idiots wrote on statues. That's NOT Cook's doing. SO it doesn't belong in his article. HiLo48 (talk) 09:54, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Nay, sir.  We have an article on Cook because what he did is important now. It is important to different people in different ways.  A public statue of Cook is to some a public commemoration and to others a public insult.  Both that disagreement and the modes of its expression should be acknowledged. Errantios (talk) 21:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, it's not the statues alone that have caused the problem. It's the iditiotic inscriptions on them. Very few of those to whom it's a public insult have valid reasons to see Cook as the problem. Cook didn't build those statues, nor did he write the inscriptions. We could validly say that a problem has been created by the existence of the statues, and worse, the inscriptions, but saying that Cook himself is the problem is wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 22:37, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

text: I think it is worth doing that this discussion has veered entirely from what I started it for. Will Thorpe (talk) 05:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy 

message: there is some errors in false information and i want to help and edit it Skyskysun (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: ok Skyskysun (talk) 21:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Liu1126 (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2024 

message: The long held belief that Captain Cook’s son James, died without issue has in 2024 been disputed in a new book. “The Untold Story of Captain James Cook R N”. by author and researcher  Colin Waters. (Pen & Sword books – ISBN 978-1399056960 ). Verifiable evidence based on the discovery of a newly discovered 18th century government document discovered in the  British National Archives reveals history changing  facts about the family of James Cook senior, including compelling evidence that there are indeed direct descendants throughout the world via his son James junior.­. The book presents not only a full transcript of the Naval enquiry into the supposed drowning of James junior, but also evidence of an orchestrated cover-up of the incident and genealogical evidence to support the theory that James may have deserted his post and returned to his wife and son in North Yorkshire. Mr Yorky (talk) 09:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a fringe theory. WP:Fringe When it is taken seriously by a significant number of experts in the field we can consider incorporating it in the article. At this stage, the claims of "an orchestrated cover-up" rings alarm bells. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

text: I'm just following policy. It's not me you need to convince, it's a significant number of experts in the field. When this happens we can incorporate the theory. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. M.Bitton (talk) 00:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024