Talk:Bronx High School of Science/Archive 1

message: :Uh, there is no "probably" in that last statement!  Well, I'm disappointed that you didn't arrive here to announce the deep, dark details of this, but I'm even more disappointed that the Fordham Baldies don't have a wiki article.   I assume the Villa Avenue Gang don't either, nor the Bailey Gang - and if anyone else remembers any of them, leave a note on my user talk page!  Tvoz | talk 22:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: dare I ask the question: who were the Fordham Baldies?  A gang like those from the warriors?--Rocketrye12 20:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Fordham Baldies were a known major gang in the Bronx in the 1950s-1960s, consisting of teens and 20-somethings. They were well-known in the area, and later immortalized in the novel and movie, The Wanderers. See the website "Back in the Bronx" and especially the website, lantern-media.com/LanternBronxGangs.htm, by a guy who appears to have a major hobby of documenting the Baldies and other notable Bronx gangs of the era. For years I thought the Baldies were an urban legend, but these sites have convinced me of their reality. Bellagio99 15:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  P.S. I am sorry, but I didn't answer Rocketry12's question explicitly. The Warriors is a film that documents that era too, but is set in Brooklyn (Coney Island), not the Bronx. The Wanderers explicitly uses the name, the Fordham Baldies, and was filmed in the Bronx. I am especially nostalgic for scenes of Fordham Road and Grand Concourse, including Krums' ice cream parlor. (This may be more than you wanted to know). Of course there were other movies, such as the 1949 "City Across the River" (i.e. Broolyn), based on the novel "A Stone for Danny Fischer" and co-starring Anthony Curtis (originally Bernard Schwartz). We all read the books and watch the movies and learned how to behave;-) Bellagio99 15:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! you went above and beyond.  I collaborate on the article with you, if you want.  Create the page, put some starter content, then drop a link in my talk page.  I'll do some research and do some writeups.  If you want--Rocketrye12 03:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Great!  Leave title  as it is - actually you did it correctly - WIkipedia naming conventions are generally that second and subsequent words are not capitalized, so Bronx gangs is correct. Tvoz | talk 23:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: gangs

message: Can someone check this fact, "No New York City high schools have specific feeder patterns as all New York City public high school students apply to high schools."
Although the SSHSs may not have particular feeder patterns, I'm pretty sure plenty of "local" high schools in the city do have zoned districts they feed from.  
I'd fix it -- but don't feel particularly authoritative on this.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmithy (talk • contribs) 22:23, 6 November 2005
: While digging for some ciations for Stuyvesant High School recently, I came across this as well.  It is apparently true, although "local" schools have a preference for accepting their "local" students.  I can't find the reference now, but I'd start hunting at http://www.nycenet.edu for the definitive info.  RossPatterson 03:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Feeder patterns

message: I can't believe that it seems as though current Bronx Science students are vandalizing this page..... <sigh> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmithy (talk • contribs) 22:27, 12 March 2005
:Indeed. I happened to notice someone left a message when using Wikipedia to look something up for CompSci class. What do I find? Edit blocks, and warning after warning after warning to stop vandalizing pages. But I suppose anominimity gives anyone the courage to egostroke in the most pathetic ways possible.--167.206.203.14 15:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, now that I think of it, it might just be better to ban the IP from editing, to prevent people exploiting the school's internet connection to vandalize wiki pages. If it's a real edit, it can be proposed in the talk page, done through a real account, or just wait untill one is at their own computer.--167.206.203.14 15:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: 1. Why is it necessary to list another the school is near in the intro?
2. The transportation section is sufficient. Why do we need to attack various bus services? Is your word enough to "verify" they are bad services? Isn't this a violation of NPOV? Tfine80 20:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, using anonymous accounts will not help the situation. I'm getting tired of this again. It is not "valuable" to compare different companies, with a bias for one over the other. Also, Wikipedia is not a shopping and advertising service, and this type of section does not meet our standards. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Tfine80 19:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; it is not designed to give partial advice to high school parents. You need to defend why these edits are appropriate in Wikipedia. Tfine80 06:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Listing prices is not Wikipedia's role. You will rarely find this on other pages. Especially about school bus services. This especially important because of the user, perhaps you, who was trying to attack "internal stability" at one of the companies. Tfine80 23:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anonymous editor 

message: This needs expansion. Compare this to the article on stuyvesant. --Shell 02:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion 

message: *When Mr. Stark left in 2001, Mr. Galasso took over the reins for one term until Ms. Valerie J. Reidy, the target for the famous "Quack" scandal in 2005, and Assistant Principal of the Biological Science Department, was appointed as the first woman principal of The Bronx High School of Science in September 2001.
The "Quack" scandal is not as famous as some writers seem to think. Either it should be explained or removed. -Will Beback 03:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quack 

message: I just started these categories, so that folks can fill them in... my information is rather out-of-date, so it would be best if more recent graduates filled these in...
Gacggt 18:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep!  I split it into three columns.  There are three pieces of wikicode you use: , , .  If you need any more help, just drop a line on my talk page.  Cheers.  -- Merope 20:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Academics, Clubs, etc

message: I just moved the following comment from the top of the article page to here.  I assume Bxsstudent doesn't know a lot about how WikiPedia works, and that it wasn't a malicious act.  RossPatterson 03:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is under development. All comments, ideas, and suggestions are encouraged and welcome. Please e-mail to bxswiki@yahoo.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bxsstudent (talk • contribs) 23:04, 28 October 2006
---------
I am starting to feel not as gracious as Ross was in his post - it is NOT ok to remove someone else's comments on the Talk page.  Ever.  You can disagree, even heatedly - you can complain to an admin if you think someone is being abusive - but you do not remove a comment that another editor posted.   And you certainly don't remove someone's comment and then revert your own change that the other person was objecting to.   I suppose Ross may be right and you don't know a lot about how Wiki works, and you weren't being malicious, but I would recommend that you see how others handle disagreement here and follow suit, because right now it's late and I'm really not feeling so charitable. Tvoz 09:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Under development

message: User:Bxsstudent made a good suggestion - that we include a section called "Research" or something llike that, where information about the school's library could be placed, and any other research resources that the school has.  I removed the heading for now because it has no text - but encourage anyone who ha current information or can obtain some, to reinstate it with some text accompanying it.  Perhaps someone would like to call or go into the school library and get some information, or perhaps some current students or recent grads have this information already. Tvoz 06:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, by the Research section in Student Opportunities, I was planning to post information on the extensive and voluminous original research taking place in such subjects as mathematics, science, and social science. Student projects from these programs are submitted to competitions, including Intel. The library is also an important facet of the school, contributing to the academic resource needs of its students. I am looking forward to allocating that information with an overall expansion of Facilities and resources.Bxsstudent 06:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Bxsstudent - thanks for posting that library info - is it a direct quote or a paraphrase of the article you referenced?  If it is a quote, it needs to have quotes around it, with the reference as well.   I sent email to the library a few days ago requesting information about their holdings, but no one responded.  Tvoz 18:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: And I think that if we get more inofmrtaion about the library we might break it out into its own section, as you suggested.   Tvoz 18:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research 

message: User 168.122.208.138 has repeatedly blanked sections or otherwise vandalized this article today.  Can this be stopped?Tvoz 00:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try Wikipedia:Requests for page protection or WP:AIV.  Probably the latter would be most helpful to stop just that IP user and the former to stop all edits by anons. Cbrown1023 00:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Normally, though, you would add a warning template on the user or anon's talk page first but I just did that. Cbrown1023 00:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated blanking of sections/vandalism 

message: The Science article is not yet ready for featured article candidacy. As suggested by RossPatterson, nomination is a good approach to collaborative development and improvement. The recent featuring of the Stuyvesant on the front page should also grant the Science article extra attention. However nominating it for Good Article collaboration is a better choice for now, and will lead the path to featured article.Bxsstudent 19:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the article isn't ready for featured article status yet.Can the nomination be withdrawn?Tvoz 19:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomination for candidacy 

message: This article has not been reviewed for GA. User:Qazws11 passed this for GA without proper review. Based on inputs from other reviewers in Wikipedia:Good_articles/Review#Bronx_High_School_of_Science, I relisted back this article in WP:GAC for a normal GA review. — Indon (reply) — 09:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relisted back for GA 

message: As has been said earlier on this Talk page (see "suggestions", "Collaborations", etc above), we need information input to make this article more comprehensive - I've talked above about sports, clubs and the "colllaborations" section which are mostly unannotated lists.  I think we need input, details, about these aspects of the school so that we understand their role -someone to take a shot at writing them up - and others will edit and rewrite for style and syntax. 
So for Sports, for example - does anyone know any history here? Sports that Science teams have excelled in (there is a note about girl's swimming and PSAL on the list) in the past, old or recent, or now?  The list  of teams can  be a link, but we need information to turn into prose.
Same for Clubs - although I think the list provides some insight into the breadth of interests, it isn't at all clear if all of these are current or active, and more importantly, what do they do?   I made Academic teams and Publications subheads under Extra-curricular, because that's what they are, and surely those can be fleshed out a bit more.  Again, we need some information input, and then can work on refining and polishing the text which is easy.
And my personal favorite for speedy deletion - I raised it months ago, another editor concurred, asking for information about what these collaborations are.  We have links for universities and corporations to the university's main web page or wiki page.  Totally worthless.  If they have a program with Science, as I assume they must, then can someone provide the information as to what those collaborations are.  If no one comes forward on that I'm removing the ones without info and they can be reinstated easily enough if information is forthcoming.  Maybe the way to proceed on collaborations is to write up the ones we know something about as examples of the kinds of collaborations Science participates in, and then add to it as more information comes in.   If someone can present some facts, that would be a great help. The Science web page, last time I checked on this, was also without details on this.
So - in my opinion, as I have said on this Talk page before, what's most needed to improve the article is more information.  And  more citations and references - those two things should go hand-in-hand.    Tvoz 17:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will do this on Tuesday when we return.  thanks for reminding me.--Rocketrye12 01:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Call for information input

message: This article failed WP:GAC for these reasons: way too many lists, refs are a mess and not in a  standard nor consistent format, solo years do not get wikilinked, several external jumps inside the body of the article, there should not be a space between punctuation and refs and refs come after punctuation, a good copyedit would help, explain things like "feeder patterns", why are the colleges and corporations listed?. Rlevse 17:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some good points, several of which have been made here before (especially the collaborations part which I am going to remove).   But while I'd like to see consistency across an article and throughout the encyclopedia, I hope that the placement of punctuation and spaces is not used to determine the worth of an article. Tvoz 23:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm a BxSci alumni and I became extremely jealous after Stuy was not only an FA but also made the mainpage. I think that some suggestions for improving the page can be:
*Consolidating the lists in the "Features and resources" section. By incorporating those lists at least into paragraph form if not discarding them completely, the text seems a lot more relevant and interesting as opposed to a lot of white space.
*Eliminating the "Representative Electives" section completely. I was looking at Stuy's page and there's no longwinded list like this and I don't think people will really get anything out of such a thing. I think that a link to the current BxSci course guide, available in pdf format on the BxSci website, would be a lot more salient.
*Eliminating the massive list of clubs. Like the Representative Electives bit, if a link was given to the list of clbs on the BxSci website, it would look a lot cleaner.
*Splitting the list of alumni into a seperate page such as "List of Bronx Science people" like other high schools or universities have. Perhaps it would be advisable to keep the initial part of the section where it talks about the Nobel Prize winners and Pullitzer winners but having a link to the seperate page.
*A list of popular culture referrences, I'm sure there are several. I remember hearing once that on The West Wing, one of the characters said something along the lines of "Not every high school can be a Bronx Science." I also remember seeing a reference in Mad Magazine once. There must be several more.
Once again, these are only suggestions but I feel like they would certainly make the article much closer to Good Article or Featured Article status and I'd be willing to lend a hand.Stephen 22:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I've mentioned it before, but anyone who's serious about trying to move a school article to Featured Article quality should take a look at the FA reviews for both Hopkins and Stuyvesant, which you can find from the FA banners of both of their talk pages (or just go to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hopkins School and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stuyvesant High School).  Check out the failed attempts too, which are linked from the tops of those pages.  The reviewers can be (and will be) aggressive and merciless, and you can expect several of the folks who weighed in on those two articles to comment on this one.  For the record, I have to say that the Stuyvesant article is much better for the criticism, even if it was hard for some of the edittors to accept.  You should expect to have to whittle down all the "laundry lists" to just sample and unusual items, come up with a lot more cited sources to back up the text, ditch the Transportation section, etc.  Getting to FA is hard, but if you make it the result is a really nice article - that is, after all, the entire idea :-) RossPatterson 23:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA failure

message: May I suggest writing these out as (for example) 1964 instead of '64? Eventually, the latter will be potentially confusing; already an issue for older institutions. - Jmabel | Talk 00:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: good thought - I'll get on it when I have a couple of minutes. thanksTvoz 00:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Graduation dates 

message: As noted above in Edelville murders by Rocketrye12, the text at  is an almost verbatim match to much of the History section of this article.  Since BXScience.edu claims a copyright on the page, this section needs a major re-write or needs to be deleted. RossPatterson 23:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Ross - I noted that above earlier today. This was the text when I started editing the page a few months ago  - have to now go back and see how it got here. Tvoz 00:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Seems to have been introduced in May 2005 - by a user who is not currently an active editor under that username.  Some of History is not lifted from there - I did a lot of editing over the last couple of months on this article, and what I wrote, I wrote - but it likely still needs a rewrite, which I will take a stab at.  I don't understand why it's so hard for people to distinguish research from plagiarism - I hope it was not a Bronx Science student who posted the copied material.  Tvoz 01:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am confused.  What do you mean by "it's so hard for people to distinguish research from plagiarism"?  maybe you should discuss at an earlier hour, Tvoz :-)  Are you suspecting that bxscience.edu pulled from wikipedia, or the other way around? --Rocketrye12 23:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you're confused about,  Rocketrye12, so I'll say it again, hopefully in a clearer way.  I mean the other way around: I highly doubt that whoever maintains bxscience.edu lifted text from here; I suspect that whoever posted the original history section in May 2005  on Wikipedia simply copied it from the Science web page, which is plagiarism, not research.  I find it disheartening when I see plagiarism, and especially so if I think there is a possibility that a student may have done it: it's pretty simple, really.  Put text in quotes if you want to use it verbatim, and give citations.  Or, re-write it based on the information you've gleaned from your research, in your own words.  I'm not directing this comment at any specific individual, as I don't know who is responsible - I hope it isn't a Science student (or alum or faculty member!) because I hope that a Science education includes being taught how to distinguish plagiarism from research, and how to write without copying.  I hope this clarifies what I was saying.  Tvoz 00:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright violation

message: To keep the page factually accurate, I deleted the sentence asserting Bronx Science having more than twice the number of finalists as any other high school. It is probable that Stuyvesant caught up quickly after the new building and the accompanying take of primacy among the Specialized High Schools. Bronx Science's web site itself is currently undergoing major revisions. In any case, according to [60 Years of Science] page 73, Stuy ranks second with 92 finalists. Bxsstudent 08:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: glad you checked that Tvoz 09:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intel finalists 

message: I did a rewrite of the history section- and then lost it as my browser crashed while I was attempting to save the text here.  I am not happy.  Will try to recreate my deathless prose, but not tonight. Tvoz 09:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds great, Tvos.  Sorry for your lost effort!  It may be better to type long entries in notepad first.  
I have been taking some pictures of the school these past few days, and I will be adding them to various sections  I want to expand on some 'special projects' or 'special stories' that really define science.  the stuyvesant article has some things about their 'cyclotron.'  I heard some things about other projects at science, a while back.  I'm going to check on those.Tvoz 05:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

text: yeah, me too - but  do others agree with me that we should wait before nominating it again?  the article  has been proposed prematurely before, and we seem to lose momentum when we get shot down - in my opinion, it's not ready for prime time yet, although it's getting there. anyone else?  Tvoz 05:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  history 

message: I recently added a picture of the Survey publications room in the publications section.  I am afraid it's formatting has gone haywire, and i am unable to fix it.  Can someone help?  maybe its too close to that picture on the left 'artificial resistance to penycillian'?--Rocketrye12 00:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it actually didn't look too bad on my mozilla browser, but I moved things around a bot to try to get a better overall visual look for the page Tvoz 05:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i'm using mozilla as well, but i have a widescreen----1440x900.  that might have thrown things off.  anyhow--  You're version look much better.--Rocketrye12 23:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: help with image formatting!

message: someone added the robotics team as an academic team.  I removed it, because I don't think it belongs there.  So, because it is not featured as prominently, i added a robotics section.  take a look.--Rocketrye12 02:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: robotics team.   ACADEMIC TEAM?

message: see it here
:I don't think it will fly - we haven't had enough vandalism here to justify sprot, is my guess. Tvoz | talk 06:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Declined Not enough activity to justify protection. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 22:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: thank you.  I need to fact check, but i think you're right.--rocketrye12 talk/contribs 17:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: request for protection