Talk:British diaspora in Africa

message: *small point: in the vernacular 'soapie' can also mean a bottle of beer with a shot of spirits in it
*Removed message. The main article page is not a place for messages - if an editor has a message for other editors, it belongs on this page, the Talk page. 
*Removed linked images to external sites - no longer allowed on Wikipedia. 
*Removed first person narrative and informal tone - this is an encyclopaedic article, not a personal web page.
*Removed non-working external link
*Removed bias towards South Africa/Zimbabwe
*South African history - removed a mass of POV/original research irrelevant to this article. I have replaced this section with a brief summary relevant to the article's subject.
Also removed unverified refs to:
*Network AA - I don't seem able to find this organisation on Google, which infers that there's not a lot of point mentioning it in this article
*British South African - does not appear in Dictionary of SA English, inferring that it may be a neologism
*Canadian settlers - surely not a significant minority, if so a reference would be useful
*Reinstated ref. to rooinek = sunburnt neck; this is the explanation given in the DSAE, so a verifiable and authoritative reference otherwise would be useful
It might be helpful if someone could come up with an image less politically charged than the signing of UDI to illustrate this article - this is an encyclopaedic article, not an apologia for white minority rule.
Humansdorpie 11:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: "they can be of any ancestry including French Huguenot, Jewish, Portuguese, Spanish, German and Italian."
Really? Surely they should be considered as separate "anglo" specifically refers to England (though is inclusive of the whole of Britain in a modern sense).
They are saying that Anglo-Africans include people of these heritages, I am an English speaking South African but have Dutch, French Huguenot, Italian, German, English, Scottish and Irish ancestry. In other words it is the same case as with Afrikaners being descendant form multiple groups, This is a result of the diverse immigration to SA --Scottykira (talk) 06:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestry 

message: I think it is great with the new pics and text, put the article should be clean up, it is  a little confusing and messy . Dr.Poison 18:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up! 

message: What parties want to form an independent state like Quebec? I've never heard of parties wanting to do that Joziboy 15 May 2006, 11:10 (UTC)
:More of Luke's personal opinion, I'm afraid. The Sons of England were not an independence movement - they were an early-20th century Friendly Society. The "British African Front"/"The English African Front for Liberty" was a one-man movement (known in the trade as "green-inkers") that never progressed beyond posting a manifesto on a web site and designing several flags. Humansdorpie 13:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It makes good sense to change the focus of the article more closely to English-speaking white South Africans - there is already a corresponding article on Whites in Zimbabwe; and White African, which deals with European colonists in general. Perhaps Whites in Kenya and Whites in Zambia will appear a couple of years down the line. My only caveat is that the name of the article might need to change to reflect the limited geographical scope - maybe English-speaking white South African is too long! Humansdorpie 08:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That makes really good sense. I see the DSAE lists South African English as a collective term for English-speaking South Africans, so it's a recognised expression. Maybe that's the answer? If I can work out which account Luke J is using at the moment I will drop him a line and ask him to post his views, as he appears to be the originator of the page. Humansdorpie 13:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Hi Luke, User:Joziboy and I are having a discussion on the Talk:Anglo-African page about maybe renaming the page to reflect a closer focus on white South African history and culture. As you are the originator and one of the main contributors, it would be very constructive to have your views. Humansdorpie 13:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your message - I've copied it to the Talk:Anglo-African page to try to keep the conversation in one place. It would be very helpful if you could explain there why you think it's a stupid idea. (If you type four ~ symbols after a comment (~~~~), it automatically signs the comment - it's a good habit to get into!) Humansdorpie 12:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Independence

message: Luke, it would be really helpful if you could discuss on this page some of the edits that you are making. I have removed some of them today for a variety of reasons:
*Factual inaccuracy - there is no such thing as a "Rhodesian dialect"; the white Zimbabwean slang term "mush" does not come from Shona.
*Stylistic - I assume that you are not using the word to make a racist point, but the word Bantu, when used to refer to a black South African person, has strong racist connotations and in modern South Africa is viewed as a deliberately offensive term. 
*Notability - I have removed the reference to the "English African Front for Liberty" - not only is there no evidence of its notability, but the Wikilink you provided leads straight to a copyvio notice.
*Personal opinion - e.g. "The phrase Kaffir became common among Anglo Africans". It isn't a phrase; it's a word. If you're going to make sweeping statements like that, you need to provide a reference. Without a reference, it is nothing more than your personal opinion. 
Humansdorpie 13:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is good that this article has been edited! I am just wondering, which flag is that on the article? Dr.Poison 18:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Today's edit 

message: During the Apartheid years in South Africa, many Anglo-Africans considered themselves to be more moderate than their Afrikaner compatriots, and generally supported the United Party rather than the National Party which established Apartheid in 1948.
*Didn't many Anglo-Africans also vote for the National Party? Should this not be noted also? Dr.Poison 17:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: United Party

message: Is the the number of Anglo-Africans that high? 4 million? In South African, there is about 2million and in Zimbabwe maybe 70 000? But are there over 2 million outside Africa? If somebosy would have a source for that number? ���Dr.Poison 14:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Anglo-Africans 

message: 2001 census  reports that 8,2% of South African people spoke mostly English at home. At that time the whole population was 44,819,778, so we have at least some 3,650,000 Anglo-Africans in South Africa.
Incorrect, this number includes pretty much all the Indian South Africans (who number +1,000,000) and some 20% of the coloured population (who number +4,000,000). Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:24, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Again about the number

message: "Anglo-African" is also used (e.g. Daniel Brown, "Songs of Slavery", Index on Censorship, Volume 36, Number 1, 2007, p. 138–140.) to refer to people in England of African descent. This article should at least have a hat text indicating where (if anywhere) the appropriate article for that topic would be found. - Jmabel | Talk 21:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Term 

message: :Image:Johnny clegg.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Johnny clegg.jpg

message: The analogy to North American Rednecks is incorrect.  
Specifically, in modern outside usage, "Redneck" refers to certain segments of the rural poor-to-working class people of any race (usually white, although many Southern US Blacks consider themselves Rednecks) in the US and Canada, usually indicative of ignorance, xenophobia, or lack of class.  The term can be used by Rednecks to describe themselves as proud of their rural working-class background without any of the negative stereotypes.  In this article, it is argued that "Redneck" refers to "lower class Americans".  I am going to amend the sentence if no one objects. 
Secondly, in North American usage, "Redneck" was not derived from sunburnt necks, as is argued in this article.  Specifically, "Redneck" referred to rural Appalachian mountain-folk, usually miners, laborers, and their families, who wore red cloths around their necks to signify their opposition to Labor  Union-led development of transportation lines through their communities.  It was actually a large movement that led to several deadly battles in US history.  I will also amend this sentence.  
It is important to clarify that they are different, but both the analogy and explanation are incorrect here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theboondocksaint (talk • contribs) 20:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference to Rednecks 

message: "An idiosyncracy of Anglo-Africans is that should you ask them where their family is from, they will generally answer "Norfolk" or "Hampshire" or "Aberdeen" as the case may be, rather than "Mombasa" or "the Eastern Cape" where they grew up, even if their families came to Africa a century ago." 
I have never in my life heard a South African born 'Anglo-African' describe their family as coming from anywhere in England. I personally have no clue where my family may have originally immigrated from when they came to South Africa. 219.164.140.125 (talk) 11:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation? 

message: I have never heard a white English speaking South African (born and raised in SA for generations so not including recent immigrants from the UK) use the term Anglo-African to describe themself.
If one looks at the term itself, them by analogy with Anglo-Indian and other similar terms it would seem to indicate a person of mixed racial/ethnic heritage - British and (black) African. 
Another issue is that English speaking South Africans (and most likely also English speaking people from other African countries too) are not all white and many have no British ancestors at all. 
The term simply stinks of the jingoistic imperialism of Rhodes and Kichener - "I say old chap, we're British, not heathen savages!"
Roger (talk) 20:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The term "Anglo-African" is problematic 

message: Please correct me if I'm wrong but how can there be a 'Jewish' race in South Africa? From what I understand, 90% of Jews in South Africa are of Lithuanian decent, so surely the correct word would be more along the lines of Lithuanian decent? And can Jewish South Africans be classed as 'Anglo-African'? Albeit they are English speaking whites, they practise Judaism, and is that one of the 'symbols' of Anglo-Africanism? Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish? 

message: I don't think the inclusion of Hugo Weaving, JRR Tolkien and Richard Dawkins in the infobox is appropriate. When an British couple went out to the colonies, had children in Africa, and then returned to Britain, that did not make their children Anglo-Africans. To be included in that term I would suggest that a person must either (1) be born to a family that had permanently settled in Africa, or (2) themselves be permanently settled in Africa. - htonl (talk) 12:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree with you, but I also find the concept of Anglo-Africans being a separate ethnic group in South Africa somewhat bizarre. I never heard the term until I saw it recently on Wikipedia. Whites were separated from non-whites during apartheid, but there has been a lot of mixing within that population group and nowadays across all population groups. I am still trying to wrap my head around these "ethnic group" articles. Helen (talk) 16:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is definitely a fuzzily-defined group of English-speaking white South Africans who share a common language and ancestry and generally a common culture. So it does fit into the general idea of an ethnic group. - htonl (talk) 21:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I will give it some more thought, right now I have some difficulty with the terminology and the concept and I see from the comments above I am not the only one. As it stands, in my mind an AA would be a person of British parentage born in Africa, not an English-speaking South African with mixed European ancestry (and just to confuse matters I am both of those). This does contradict your point, but I am not anywhere near ready to put my head on a block about it. Helen (talk) 08:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am curious why you kept William Boyd (who I had never heard of before)? Helen (talk) 08:20, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

text: I swapped William Boyd for Graeme Smith, assuming the idea is that they still have a strong connection to Africa. I also swapped Sharlto Copley (who is not that well-known) for Charlene Wittstock, who is a female and born in a different African country to SA (to provide some balance). Helen (talk) 09:19, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I hadn't noticed William Boyd, but I agree with the removal (both for the reasoning I described above and because he's not that well-known). I'm happy with the other change as well. - htonl (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

text: I went through the whole list in the AA category and very few well-known people who still have a strong SA/Africa connection have a decent WP photo if one at all. I am open to adding another row/three if we can find decent pics but I would like to keep the ones we have now. Helen (talk) 09:45, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Rob Davies for a contemporary politician? His photo's OK. Or Helen Zille, of course; she may be German by descent but is definitely ESWSA herself. - htonl (talk) 10:06, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we know for sure Rob Davies has significant British ancestry? (His pic is good but his article is not great.) I don't think Zille is "British" enough for this article, and there is also a more relevant page namely Jews in South Africa. I will also look for others in List of South Africans. Sorry to be contrary, I'm not trying to be difficult. Helen (talk) 11:24, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Other suggestions: Alan Paton, Richard Leakey, David Livingstone. Helen (talk) 12:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Choice of people in the infobox 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Support. "Anglo-African" is, as demonstrated throughout discussions above, a problematic term. It does have historical use to describe British colonists of a particular time period, but I'm not aware of any significant number of us identifying with the term today. I'm not entirely happy with the term "British in Africa" since I don't think most of us identify as "British" today, so maybe the article will need to be reorganised to focus on the colonial period when people still considered themselves "British". Content about the contemporary situation will perhaps need to be moved into White people in Kenya, White people in Zimbabwe, White South African, etc., and maybe a new article on English-speaking white South African, which is AFAIK the most common contemporary term. - htonl (talk) 09:48, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: I have started tentatively to clean up this and related articles. They are broad topics. There might be some major changes. I won't always get it right. I appreciate feedback. I am posting this to pre-empt any hostility. If there are any major issues with my editing (I am not talking about copy editing or the odd fact), please bring it to the talk page. Helen (talk) 08:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made a few more changes since the move (to lede and templates), but will not have much time for editing this week. I hope to focus on this article next week. Helen (talk) 06:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In the background I have been updating numerous backlinks – primarily in the main namespace (note that those linked via templates won't update immediately), and have proposed the merging of :Category:Anglo-African people with :Category:African people of British descent. I still have to tackle the main article text (eish). HelenOnline 11:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have started tackling the main text and will probably have to be ruthless removing unsourced/unsourceable material. HelenOnline 09:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am done cleaning up, thanks to those who helped. I will be watching the page and revert any new unexplained and/or unsourced edits like this one. HelenOnline 08:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

text: I know, but edit warring is wearing me down. :( HelenOnline 14:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

text: I don't think we have a clear grasp of the scope of this article, then. I mean, "diaspora" is not the same as "expatriates". There are people in the "diaspora" whose families have been in this country for generations (1820 Settlers etc.) and are not "expatriates" in any sense of the word. If this article isn't about White Africans whose ancestry is principally British and Irish, then what is it about? - htonl (talk) 14:59, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think diaspora includes expats such as retired Brits living here, but semantics can be subjective. I was primarily concerned with only including people whose WP articles indicate British ancestry with sources – even if I had to find them and add them myself. Most of the latest additions would not qualify and I am not going to hunt for any more sources. :) HelenOnline 16:55, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Late to the discussion, but I think this use of "diaspora" stretches its original meaning to meaningless. It has historically been used for populations that were expelled by another, majority population, such as the Jews from ancient Israel, Jews and Moors from the Iberian peninsula, or taken in slavery, such as sub-Saharan Africans taken to other areas by Arab or European traders, or fled because of famine and economic distress, such as the Irish from Ireland during and after the potato famine. Why not use "History of British immigrants in Africa"? (which appears to included assimilation and identification with the country they settle in) Or "Migration of British to Africa"? Populations migrate for a variety of reasons, but to put the effects of colonialism and imperialism under "diaspora" seems to distort the meaning. Or is all population movement now to be referred to as "diasporas"?Parkwells (talk) 13:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi  it seems to me like you are conflating "diaspora" with "refugees" or some other type of forced emmigration. A diaspora is not neccessarily the result of forced migration, it simply means a population outside of its "homeland". Aiui, the long struggle about this article's title and terminology is about what to call English-speaking white people in Africa who do not have recent direct connections to the UK and reject being labelled some type of "British". In South Africa that basically means non-Afrikaner whites, except for small numbers of Greek, Portuguese, German, etc. speakers and actual immigrants from the UK. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up 

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