Talk:Broken windows theory

message: The "Support for the theory" section does not actually offer any support for the theory.  The theory as stated in the opening paragraph of the article implies that aggressive targeting of low level crime prevents higher level crimes from happening.  The "Support for the theory" section merely lists a few cases in which elements of the theory were acted upon.  Actual support for the theory would include a statistical correlation of a decrease in the occurrence of higher level crimes when elements of the theory are acted upon.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:CB02:8BC0:918A:934E:4216:B71F (talk) 06:57, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that section is weak. It boils down to a few cases of "implementation was followed by decrease in crime". This is a classic case of neglecting a fundamental logical principle: correlation does not imply causation. It's fine to cite those cases, but they need to be accompanied by a big grain of salt. I'm going to try to sprinkle more of it in there. According to PBS Frontline, Columbia Law School professor Bernard Harcout has done two major studies, and has found no evidence of a cause and effect relationship. If that Frontline article isn't already mentioned, I'll figure out how to add it. Danielx (talk) 08:00, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Support for the theory

message: Assessed B Class. Dep. Garcia  ( Talk | Help Desk | Complaints )  12:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I have re-cast the section to remove rebuttals.  This is a list of criticisms that have been offered, not a debating ground. Fumblebruschi 21:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have citations for some of this section form some project work. Currently in a source on Antisocial behaviour, but I'm going to be checking the original sources for my work. I'll add these in at that point. Acidsaturation 12:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The theory in action section title either needs to be changed or the section needs to be written more neutrally  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ap4413 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Theory in Action - POV 

message: * ISBN and authors' names.
* Detail NYC crime rates (5% decrease or 25% or what? And in which categories of crime?) or link to relevant page.
** Definitely not a decrease in rape, that's for sure.
--Ed Poor
I haven't read Freakanomics in a while, but I believe they said that the drop in the crime rate was not due to stricter gun laws. I think the third factor was more police on the streets, but I'd have to double check. --Spambi
I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning on the page, but in Malcolm Gladwell's book "The Tipping Point" he refers to this principle a lot, but I don't think he refers to it as the "broken windows theory." At least, I can't recall him calling it that. Kat, Queen of Typos 10:33, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To do 

message: Ironically, Wikipedia works on much the same principle. Articles that are watched closely are hard to damage, because changes that aren't valuable are quickly reverted. Graffiti just can't stay up very long.
But this depends on enough people watching enough articles. --Uncle Ed 16:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. But does the fact that vandalism gets reverted quickly decrease its frequency? Pomte 21:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly not. The timing and method of vandalism reversion is an art, not a science. I guess the point is not to let it accumulate, or stay up too long. But it can give it too much energy if it's removed right away. The idea is to make it too boring for anyone to bother making a concerted effort to mess up pages. --Uncle Ed 22:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, fixing broken windows quickly requires an army of maintenance workers ready to be dispatched on a moment's notice, which can grow to become outrageously expensive.  Yet there seems to be little recognitition of the fact that affluent communities have the resources to fix and clean all sorts of crap, but impovershed areas don't have the money to educate their best students, much less chase around behind the miscreants and clean up their messes.71.191.247.254 (talk) 17:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia's success

message: Propose removing Broken Windows in Software Development -- someone please look at the Google redirection and Wikipedia browsing statistics.  If more than 10% are here on software related matters keep it (and I'll eat my hat).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.188.210 (talk) 06:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove Irrelevant Software References

message: Here is a link to new research published in science: [Signs of petty crime, K. Keizer, S. Lindenberg, L. Steg (2008). The Spreading of Disorder]. The link is to the Research Digest Blog of The British Psychological Society. --Monado
There's already a reference to a secondary source in the article. You could add the above link as a reference if you'd like. Gerardw (talk) 12:38, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New research supports theory 

message: Anonymous (IP) editor added parenthetical However, Lott's own research has not been immune from criticism. without citation. I put a note on User talk:81.159.33.120 encouraging more detail. The line doesn't seem to add a lot of value -- should in be left in or reverted? Gerardw (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critics of the Theory 

message: There seems to be a mingling of these two ideas, which to my mind are not identical. "Fixing Broken Windows" refers to the idea that taking care of minor problems (such as a few broken windows) quickly will reduce further acts of vandalism. "Zero Tolerance" is treating all violations of a law or policy with equal harshness. I suppose that in the case of a kid who breaks a window playing baseball who gets the same penalty as a deliberate vandal you do have some degree of relationship, but whether or not the broken windows get quickly fixed is not dependent on the penalty assessed to the breaker nor on how that penalty is determined.69.29.207.109 (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  fixing Broken WIndows vs. Zero Tolerance  

message: The insert on beehive does not include any references and does not show how it relates to main article. Frankly it reads like a promotional piece for the organization. Gerardw (talk) 12:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  beehive 

message: The broken windows theory itself is what is interesting; the theory is much bigger than that one book. Besides, it was the original article that received the most attention, rather than the book.
Also, at the end there is a section that has nothing to do with broken windows theory itself, but rather discusses the effect of abortion on crime. This section does not belong in this article and should be moved/removed. Koyos (talk) 12:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with the unsigned IP. There is more than one theory about what caused the decrease. futurebird (talk) 13:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is irrelevant to the theory itself but it is relevant to the criticisms of the theory.82.25.0.135 (talk) 14:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to "Broken windows theory" 

message: Hunt & Thomas (1999) describe in their book Pragmatic Programming a similar viewpoint to the broken windows theory, but applied to software development. One of the principles they mention is to have 'no broken windows', as in bad designs, wrong decisions, or poor code. I think this is relevant to this article as well. Van der Hoorn (talk • contribs) 15:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in software development 

message: In the criticisms section we find the line below. All it really says is that someone disagrees with the theory in their 'study' but does not give a citation or what in the study leads them to this conclusion. 'mean reversion' is a statistical term that describes something going back to its normal state, but it doesn't explain why it is its normal state, nor reasons for the extreme measurement. Presumably they are saying that crime went down and now it is going back to normal after Giuliani left office. But they are not providing any reason why, which is hardly a valid criticism. We don't know whether it is because they stopped the zero tolerance policy or some other reason. If this is not cited AND explained better in context, then the line needs to be removed.
:In a 2007 study called "Reefer Madness" in the journal Criminology and Public Policy, Harcourt and Ludwig found further evidence confirming that mean reversion fully explained the changes in crime rates in the different precincts in New York during the 1990s
Theshowmecanuck (talk) 19:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  /* Criminology */  Citation needed on sentence starting "In a 2007 study called "Reefer Madness"" 

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thread_title: Impact of recent student edits

message: This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class review

message: "Before the introduction of this theory by Wilson and Kelling, Philip Zimbardo, a Stanford psychologist, arranged an experiment testing the broken-window theory in 1969." under "Article and crime prevention" - seems wrong, they may have tested something, but they can't have actually been testing the theory since the theory didn't exist at that time.  Also poor English towards the end of the sentence with the date.Auto98uk (talk) 13:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Article and crime prevention

message: The Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought tag is dated more than a year ago, but I see no discussion. I am familiar with the theory and the current article is a reasonable presentation, not an essay. I could probably fix the "cite" tags if there are no current contributors.  FriendlyFred (talk) 12:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: , I've also been a bit surprised by the essay banner and I tend to agree with your assessment. An essay is characterized by content (subjective POV) and/or style (potentially unencyclopedic), but I don't find these problems in the article, at least not to a significant degree. GregorB (talk) 14:21, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on the "Essay" tag? 

message: This is just the press release for the article and not the actual paper, but here.  It's topical, and directly addresses the subject matter, but I don't know how to incorporate it in a way that isn't at least a little bit original research.   Oh well.  i kan reed (talk) 20:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevant article? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: The introduction should make it clearer the theory is mostly disproven and heavily criticized. Just look at the criticism area. It's 95%+ certainty that the theory wrong, and only a fruit of bad studies and flawed interpretations.
Intro should be something like: The Broken Windows Theory is a heavily criticized mostly disproven theory from 1982 that states...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.85.121.233 (talk) 19:38, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: This quote, which is core to the article's opening, does not appear in the original Kelling/Wilson article as cited. Where did it come from? I'd rather reattribute than remove it altogether, if it's accurate. czar 16:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Found it: It's from Fixing Broken Windows, a 1998 book by Kelling and Catherine Coles. Anywikiuser (talk) 08:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Core quote 

message: For possible inclusion in article: "Researchers find little evidence for 'broken windows theory,' say neighborhood disorder doesn't cause crime" (link at bottom of the article to the two journal papers from 2018). Schazjmd (talk) 13:55, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: More recent research

message: The article should not use "criticism" sections but instead cover the research on the topic in an "impact" section. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Impact" section instead of "Criticism" section 

message: The second sentence in the lead paragraph suggests that various "crimes" are targeted, yet the article only discusses addressing fixing the visible signs of crime, such as littering, vandalism and graffiti. Where does this list come from? Citations are needed for verification. As I understand it Police officers in New York did address the problem of of minor criminal behaviour by arresting people for these crimes to remove them from the environment and perhaps prevent the visible signs of crime being caused by these people. One anonymous editor has removed jaywalking with the somewhat cryptic comment "Not worldwide view", but I am uncertain if this means the crime is not one worldwide or not one targeted worldwide. Nevertheless, I have reverted that edit because the anonymous editor did not explain themselves nor cite any reasons for their thinking. I don't know if the theory is even applied worldwide, so there may be no global view about the theory in any case. Since the lead example of implementation is New York, the article should discuss what happened in New York, including the crimes that were targeted. This may be the difference between "Broken Windows" and "Zero Tolerance", so the article should at least explain the difference by the way criminal behaviour is addressed. The peelian principles that crime should be prevented rather than repressed and the absence of the signs of crime, rather than the visible evidence of Police dealing with it was a yardstick that Bratton and others used as a standard to follow. Perhaps it is a misunderstanding of what methods needed to be used to address the broken windows issue that we end up talking about targeting crime in the lead, but what is the evidence that these crimes were, or were not, targeted as part of the "Broken Windows" crime prevention strategy. The real question is: Did targeting these behaviour crimes work effectively? Or was this over-zealous policing that was contrary to the theory? Either way I think the article will benefit from some discussion about this issue both here and in the article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 18:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criminal behaviour that is targeted 

message: The flag indicating that “normally a 10% reduction in unemployment would imply moving from 20% to 10%” is just plain wrong. The writer of this seems to not know about percentage points vs percentages. A 39% drop in crime (as in the article) is perfectly clear and accurate, as long as the source of that statistic is reliable. What even would be a 39 percentage point drop in crime? What is 100% crime? I suggest to remove that flag. 185.11.37.208 (talk) 07:21, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Have removed the tag. 157.157.47.129 (talk) 18:37, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  39% drop in crime clarity 

message: In many countries, "jaywalking" is not a crime, or is even encouraged. Sneezernickel (talk) 02:59, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  US-centric 

message: — Assignment last updated by Jessicacariello (talk) 15:00, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: STS 1010

message: — Assignment last updated by Dmaccartney (talk) 04:10, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Crime and Media