Talk:Design

message: I believe this page is a mess, and it needs a top level view to suceed. For now, it would be useful to separate the "See Also" links into some categories. 
Matt Whyndham 13:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I organized the "see also" section. I'm not married to the category labels if anyone want to suggest changes. Oicumayberight 06:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd rather have a messy article than no article at all. Design (in general) is one of those subjects that many are involved in but very few people profess in. I've put a lot of effort on this page in the hopes of just getting people interested in the general subject. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of takers. What do you suggest would be an improvement other than just deleting everything at the risk of having no article at all? Oicumayberight 18:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the "Design disciplines" section of "See also" is large enough to to it's own article?  I've been hoping to have some time to help here, but I've gotten bogged down in changing Design methods from an essay to something encyclopedic. --Ronz 18:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be better than just deleting material and starting over. Oicumayberight 21:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see a need to start over.  I think the progress that's been made with the article is commendable. --Ronz 21:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Messy page

message: This section was both unfounded and incorrect.  I have removed it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.158.1.32 (talk) 21:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Design Education

message: Why has this article got a disambiguation notice? Above (in this talk) there are some fantastic ideas for an article. If I take off the  notice, is it ok to leave the really long "See also" section, which is useful for readers? Any thoughts are welcome.--Commander Keane 17:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the  tag - it's an article now, maybe it will develop.--Commander Keane 19:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambig? 

message: Defining water and its forms=Design
This discussion about trying to define Design is very good to read. from all the the words from Designers, i would like to discuss in layers. 
Oceans, Sea's,Rivers,Lakes,ponds,Dam waters, tap waters, tank waters and what not? so many names. And names depending upon the states of water, liquid, rain, moisture, dew, ice etc., we try to capture(existing things) and relate it to something (humans).
The properties of water are, it takes the shape and form of the container, it takes the color of the container too.
That is what i think we are trying to do here, trying to define Design. 
The Oceans, sea's ... are based on the context. The state rain,moisture... are things with some purpose(function) for the context. 
From the discussion there is a vague understanding that Desing is transient (thats how it is used individually). The scale and Bandwidth or spectrum is huge and wide respectively.
Depending upon intra personal, interpersonal and societal perception, words do not stand the same. So is Design.
so can we say defining Design = defining Water ? will it stand similar?
:Design is both process and product. Water is mere product. To put it in terms of water, design is to designs what hydraulics is to water.
:If you are saying that design is very broad and general, it's true. I think that's reflected in the "see also" section. It would be nice if there was a little more organization of the list rather than just an alphabetical listing of the broader fields mixed with subfields and redundant alternate terms. However, if you are suggesting that we use an abstract metaphor to describe what could be expanded on with literal words, I don't think it would work well, particularly with the scientific analytical types.
:What's important about this article is the broader definition without going into too much detail of the individual fields and sub-disciplines. The goal is a little more than what you'd get from a dictionary definition, but a little more generalization and inclusion than what you'd get from only one of the many professional perspectives. Oicumayberight 21:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are some very important authors missing from this definition of design: Bryan Lawson, Michael Brawne, Peter Rowe, Peter Downton, J C Jones, Robin Evans, Christopher Alexander, Donald Schon and Nigel Cross (who has contributed to this page himself). Each of these authors offer constructive definitions of design that are not limited to any particular discipline. I hope this is useful to anyone attempting to revise this section.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.95.107 (talk) 04:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Mixing up the above terms detracts from the clarity of what they actually mean, whereas they are all distinct, identifiable and present in all creative activity even the abstract arts. In this context 'signal information' is also in need of a definition which at this point does not appear to be in the encyclopedia. Without going too far along this path I hope that you my appreciate the above description of 'design' (point 1.) is simple, comprehensive and does not confuse the reader with other parts of the creative process. Examples may be appropriate to illustrate the meaning but should not be a necessary part of the definition itself.
Vh mby (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defining Design 

message: What about the history of design?  In some ways, design is not a very old profession; the separation of designer and maker only happened in the past 200 years.  Industry gave room for a person who could outline a prototype or even just design an object on paper and have a factory produce and assemble it.  Unknown user 04:04, 27 November 2006
:Good suggestion. I would imagine someone would have to find the first recorded use of the word "design". My guess is that it originated in the industrial revolution. If I were a historian, I would research and write the section myself. Oicumayberight 04:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History of design

message: The latest edit of the opening section was a major change. I've read it several times, and it's not obvious to me why certain words were deleted and included. Here was the version before the edit:
Design, usually considered in the context of the applied arts, engineering, architecture, and other such creative endeavours, is a homonym, used as both a noun and a verb. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of originating and developing a plan for a new object (machine, building, product, etc.). As a noun, "design" is used both for the final plan or proposal (a drawing, model, or other description), or the result of implementing that plan or proposal (the object produced).
Designing normally requires considering aesthetic, functional, and many other aspects of an object, which usually requires considerable research, thought, modeling, interactive adjustment, and re-design.
Design as a process can take many forms depending on the object being designed and the individual or individuals participating.
In philosophy, the abstract noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose/purposefulness (or teleology). Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity.
and after 23:33, 28 November 2006 Markwiki:
Design is the manipulation of elements to create a functional and/or pleasing product.  It is a homonym, used as both a verb and a noun. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of planning. As a noun, "design" is used for the final plan or final product.  The process of designing often includes research and modeling.
The word is most often used in relation to concrete products, such as in the applied arts, engineering, and architecture.  In designing concrete items, seven elements are commonly recognized.  These are form, mass, shape, line, color, texture and pattern.
In abstract applications, such as philosophy and theology, the noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose. Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity.  The philosophical study of abstract design is teleology.
Is it just me, or is there a lot of odd changes here? 
1) The word "manipulation" often implies a controversial adjustment. A design can be an arrangement as well as an adjustment. 
2) I don't see why the examples in the parenthesis were removed. The sentence may have been a little long, but it could have been divided into multiples sentences rather than stripped of the examples.
3) The word "aesthetics" was removed, a simpler word that could include the seven elements. 
4) The seven elements seem to be too specific to graphic design, which excludes the other forms and disciplines of design.
5) Functional design is relevant, but was deleted. It isn't clear if or where function is included in the seven elements.
6) Design seems irrelevant to theology unless you are talking about intelligent design, which is a theory, not a known discipline of design. Oicumayberight 09:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Odd changes to opening

message: Why all the definitions etc from Dino Dini 'in a talk at Liverpool University'? It isn't anything new or especially helpful - many people have said similar things before, with more authority. Or am I missing something? Somebody could rewrite it more objectively?
Nigel Cross 17:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Be my guest to rewrite it more objectively. Oicumayberight 23:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I doubt there is a school on the planet were one could profess in "genera design" in the broadest scope of the word. I doubt there is a widely accepted authority on the meaning of design. I doubt there will ever be a scientific definition of a design process. Are we suggesting that the section be removed? Oicumayberight 19:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Design process 

message: The Commercial Character Design link under the design disciplines is probably not unique enough to be listed as its own discipline. I'm afraid if we allow that, some will want to list "Greeting Card Design" and every other rare application of communication design. Anyone else with an opinion on this? Oicumayberight 03:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commercial Character Design?

message: I removed the section on "Design Pollution" from the terminology section. It has little to do with terminology. Pollution is not a common term to describe bad design. The section also lacked WP:NPOV by implying that bad design is rarely if ever the fault of the designer. Oicumayberight 19:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed sections

message: Can we start a discussion here about the icons rather than edit-warring?  Please follow WP:TALK and WP:CIVIL while doing so. --Ronz (talk) 15:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. I don't see a problem, with having them. The only 2 users that have had a problem with them are just arguing their own opinions and taste. They can't speak for the millions of readers when they say that the icons don't help visual learning. Even if they seem childish, it snobbish to delete them for that reason alone because children read the wikipedia. I have yet to hear a case for why the icons are misleading. They've been there for over a year with no problem. I'm going to put them back up so anyone who wants to weigh in on this will at least see the icons we are discussing. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:10, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am all for visual learning (I want to see icons on DAB pages for example) but these seem out-of-place. Example pictures of "design in art" or "design and engineering" would be great, I just don't see what a series of KDE application icons have to do with design. Plus, almost all of them picture dividers, so it's unclear how the differ. The dividers all have a Qt logo in their hinge, which is a non sequitur. Furthermore, it's just nonstandard for Wikipedia articles to have icons for each section heading. With all that in mind, I don't see any reason to keep them. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 23:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Icons are pictures. Just because they are illustrated and not photographed doesn't make them any less clear. If anything, illustrations are more reducible. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Confusion is relative to the observer. Tell me what's inaccurate about the icons. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

text:  So, what's the verdict? Only Oicumayberight is in favour, so can we have them removed now? Oicumayberight can't speak (or edit) for 'millions of readers', either. The icons seem to have been put there by someone with nothing better to do. They are just eye-candy, not visual learning devices.  Bristolian46 (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Get rid of the icons. I dislike them. Necz0r (talk) 04:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a Democracy. Get a moderator if you want to get rid of them. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia operates by consensus, and I see consensus for removal.  Only one editor wants them to stay, and that may be a sign of ownership issues.  192.65.41.20 (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A compromise has been reached as treatment of the icons have since been edited by one of the objectors. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Didn't see this before i removed the imaged but as per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(icons)#Help_the_reader_rather_than_decorate .Wiki is a serious encyclopaedia not a children's book. I removed the images and they should not return . They really lower the tone of this very high profile article Gnevin (talk) 19:34, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The icons are for more than decoration, so the manual of style doesn't apply in this case. There is an obvious visual learning association here, and only a complete idiot would not see the association between what is discussed and the imagery of the symbols. As for the tone, that's a matter of personal taste. This article benefits young readers more than old snobbish "expert" editors. If there were less primary colors used in the icons, would you have less of a problem with them? Oicumayberight (talk) 20:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The icon don't add any additional information and thus are decoration. Idiot  and snobbish are a Personal attack. I don't care how many colours are in the icons, they are not need. Gnevin (talk) 22:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No personal attacks were made because "idiot" and "snobbish" weren't directed at any specific user. The icons add visual information to all but the blind.  Face it, it's highly unlikely any professional designer will read this article for any reason other than to get confirmation of what they already believe or know. It's mostly young readers that actually learn from articles like this. This notion that the icons do not help visual learning is baseless. You'd have to interview every person who has read this article to prove that none of them were helped by the icons. It would be one thing if you said that the icons were misleading. But personal taste is no reason to undo the work. There is no harm in them being there even if you don't like them. At least Necz0r gave logical reasons for not liking them and found a positive compromising solution. If you can't do that, then get a moderator if you don't think they should be there. Oicumayberight (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

text: It's not true that there is no support for the icons. After much more reasonable discussion than what's been used against me in this section, Necz0r agreed on this talk page that the icons were useful in the terminology section. But since you two are ganging up on me in an edit war, I'm not going to fight your lack of concern for younger users who are less familiar with design anymore. I've added more photos and captions to the section so they can at least have a visual reference for what is being discussed. Oicumayberight (talk) 01:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The new images you added in that section are significantly more informative—or dare I say "encyclopedic"?—than the abstract icon images.  Thank you for that substantive improvement to this article.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 04:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Allow me to second that. Those images exemplify their topics rather than just being icons. Good work. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 11:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Icons

message: This article has more than one problem. It's not sourced well enough to be making the claims it does, in my opinion. It's not very well structured to give any sort of basic understanding to design. Considering its role as a sort of crossroads leading out into all the various branches of design that may be, it does a bad job at being the tying knot. If people don't mind, I'll go ahead and be bold when possible. Necz0r (talk) 01:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate your contribution and integrated much of it with my last edit to restore text. Please be more specific about what is inaccurate or poorly written. Please do not delete text or links without explanations. We don't want to oversimplify the subject or edit it for the sake of people who already know the full scope of the subject. From my interviews with people, I gather that it's mostly teenagers who benefit from this article. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, I should probably have expanded a bit on that. But I really quite like the resulting new text! However, the introduction of an article is actually the one place where simplification is encouraged in order to better pull in readers at all levels, as the remaining sections of an article is used to expand on all these things. The introduction should never be too in-depth, less so with teenagers. Necz0r (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Design is one of those words that are easy to oversimplify. Most introduction sections define the term and scope of the term. We could have a section titled "what is design"; but that wouldn't leave much for the introduction section. There are many wikipedia articles with long lead sections just because the scope of the term cannot be summed up in a few sentences. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm satisfied with what we have now, at the moment :D Necz0r (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Alright, let me post some of my immediate qualms with this article except from it being unsourced. For one, it's not very well pulled together, it doesn't flow very well. In the section of "philosophies for guiding design", all we see is a definition on what a design philosophy is, although you'd expect that bit of information being right in the section above it, and then one very broad and unsourced sample of one such.  Necz0r (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This article has come a long way. The reason I got involved was because it seem that nobody else was willing to give this article the attention it deserved. This is what it looked like before I got involved in it. True, it lacks sources. However, not everything on wikipedia that should be there can be sourced. There's a fine line between WP:OR and WP:POV stating the obvious. Those unsourced POV statements of the obvious are the glue that holds most wikipedia articles together, especially the ones that involve art. The goal should always be to get sourced information; but unless there is a problem with an unsourced statement, there's no need to remove it. Unsourced information is better than no information. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll spend some time gathering some useful sources. Indeed, some stuff is obvious and does not need sourcing. But I think we could go a while before only having those left. Necz0r (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

text: But I also want to question the positioning of the entire section on design philosophy. Speaking clearly, ones' design philosophy is simply used to decide which parts of the design process would be considered important or less important. Considering the paragraph in the introduction about so much attention being put on the process of design, it would be much better to expand on this basic concept before going into the philosophy section. Necz0r (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If I'm heavily involved in editing an article such as the case with this one, I structure it in order of what I think those less familiar with the subject would be interested in. I may be wrong on this, but I assumed that the first question an aspiring designer or someone who was just curious would ask is why. Philosophy attempts to answer why even if the answers are not correct or expected. Process attempts to answer how. But if you feel strongly that process should come before purpose, we can give it a try. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well indeed! This is certainly the best thing to start an article. But I definitely think that design philosophy is but a performer on the stage of the design process, and so it would be, in my opinion, a more solid foundation to expand a bit on the design process before going in depth with the various philosophies. It would b like trying to explain cooking philosophies without explaining how cooking basically works. And all design basically works by the process. Necz0r (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

text: However, the design process section is not too well put together, either. In the subsection that is meant to define what a design process is, which doesn't really need a subsection because it should be the most basic information of all in this section (and thus should come before subsections), 75% of the text is taken from some talk. The problem is that the definition of a process could probably be found in more than one source. The other problem is that it's badly sourced, the way it's put up. There is no reference to the resource where one would be able to find and verify this information, and it's a Wikipedia editor relaying the information. More appropriate would be to refer to the available resource and then make use of direct quotation. Necz0r (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This again is a case of something being better than nothing. If you have some information that is better, I would suggest you add it to the article. If it's saying the same thing that the unsourced information says, then I would say replace it. However, if it neither contradicts nor repeats what is said, I would integrate it, keeping what is important, regardless of who said it or if it's sourced. It's more important to have a complete story with a combination of sourced and unsourced content than to have a bunch of fragmented but sourced content that doesn't cover the scope of what most people would be interested in regarding the subject. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

text: But after having passed through these sections, it breeds only further confusion that the last section in the article before seeing various disciplines, external links, etc., would be one trying to define the word design again?! "Terminology" - "The word "design" is often considered ambiguous depending on the application." - wait, so this entire article I haven't even been clear what the term means yet? What about the introduction? There has to be a more clear way of relaying the point of that section. Necz0r (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the terminology section to the end because it's the least important. Most of it is semantics. I would probably say that the article didn't need it at all, but "Design" is one of those words that are used loosely so often that most people are rarely certain of what it means, or even the extent of the meaning in context. The section is to contrast the meaning from other terms. The only term I can think of that is used more loosely and is more vague in context is the term art. The wikipedia article on art doesn't start with the terminology dispute. There is a whole separate article on classificatory disputes about art. I don't think that is necessary for design.  But again, this section could precede the other sections if you think it's more important. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's definitely the least important. I am just dabbling on how to improvement, no bids yet, simply stating a problem. Necz0r (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Finally, considering the section "process design" and in the introduction, "More recently, processes (in general) have also been treated as products of design, giving new meaning to the term "process design".", I'm surprised such a statement can be put here by an editor without any sources. We learn that this is a recent development, so where's the obviously existing source...Necz0r (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I made that POV statement because process design was a chemical engineering term long before it was used as an information age consulting business term. A simple google search will yield both uses of the term.  The only reason it's in the article is to make that contrast. The only thing yet to be proven is which came first. If there were an article for business process design, we could just link the term in the design disciplines section. But for now, there should at least be some explanation of the alternate use of the term in the article, sourced or unsourced. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. Necz0r (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

text: This is what I think in general, and I don't like the icons. Necz0r (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What specifically is it that you don't like about the icons? Are they inaccurate, too vague, or too juvenile? Personal taste is not enough of a reason to remove content from any wikipedia article. I'm not completely against removing them, but I'm guessing that they help more than they hurt. Keep in mind that the people who benefit from them will probably not be editors and wouldn't be reading the talk page to know that their usefulness is in question. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I wanted to write that "I think they definitely hurt more than they help. They distracted me more than a few times during reading, pulling away my concentration. They're not useful", but actually, what I mainly don't like would probably be the placement. I think it'd be better to place them close to the headline, not out on the right. The first one appearing in the page, and the next one, simply confused me at first. But they're useful in the terminology section. Necz0r (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Considering the flow of the article, we should probably decide on the last line of the introduction as it can be used to lead into the first section. If the "philosophies" section comes first, it would be more meaningful having this be the last part of the last sentence in the introduction. If we move up the design process section, as it is now would be good :D Necz0r (talk) 09:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the section up. I appreciate your input on this. I would like to see more people involved in editing the Design article. I started the Design Wikipedians category and user box with the hope of getting more people involve. If you browse the edit history, you'll see that I've put more than a fair share of time in attempting to improve this article. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Edited a bit, mainly icons and images. I'll be back in a few days with some books and ideas. Design is such an excellent subject, I believe the overlying article leading out into all the branches of design should be nothing short of excellent and feature-worthy. Necz0r (talk) 15:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems 

message: I am willing and (having just finished my PhD dissertation on Design Science) hopefully qualified to put a lot of work into improving this page. I started by reworking the introduction. I tried to integrate some of the existing text where it fit, but ended up replacing a lot of it. Please leave comments here. I'll give it a week or two, and if no one objects, I will rework another section or two. I think that the major topics that this page should address are: 1) design philosophy, 2) design science, 3) the design process, 4) design methods and method engineering, 5) differences between design in different disciplines, 6) the relationship between design and ethics. Some of these are already here, the others I propose to add. Thoughts anyone? Paulralph (talk) 19:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the rework. Can you indicate where all the references were actually used? --Ronz (talk) 17:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

text: @Ronz, thanks for positive response. The Footnotes section should provide the mapping between the text and the reference list - or have I misunderstood your request? Paul Ralph (Lancaster University) (talk) 22:05, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake. Good work. --Ronz (talk) 23:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Substantial Page Rework

message: Half of this article is written by one person--presumably Dino himself--on what Dino Dini thinks design is. Unless somebody can show the notability of this person in the field of design and how this doesn't constitute original research I'm pretty much going to remove that entire section. Wentomowameadow (talk) 13:56, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha, I was just removing it as you wrote that. Dini, as he stated in his additions, is a video game developer; he is not really enough of a famed design guru to be filling the article on "Design" generally with his opinions. 81.152.72.174 (talk) 14:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was reverted again. I removed the section and asked the editor to discuss it here. This section is unsourced and POV: the only source given is a link which is unavailable. We don't publish original research which this is: WP:OR, WP:V, WP:NPOV all apply. freshacconci talktalk 14:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone can find independent sources demonstrating Dini's views are worth including, then a small portion might be reintroduced, if properly verified, neutral, and without undue weight. --Ronz (talk) 15:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content removal needed 

message: I'd like to open a space to specifically discuss philosophy and design. At the moment the article includes a welcome attempt to describe issues in this area but it leaves a lot to be desired.
In attempting to improve this area I would suggest making a clear distinction between design philosophies (working theories, ideas, attitudes etc that guide the work of practicing designers), and the Philosophy of Design (contesting theories about the nature of design produced by recognised theorists, philosophers, academics etc.). Of course in reality there might be some blurring or fluidity between these distinctions, but nevertheless I think it is helpful recognise that the philosophical study of design is not the same thing as the working conceptual schema of everyday design practice. A useful comparison might also be that of the theories and philosophies embodied in art movements vs theories and philosophies of aesthetics.
Applying these distinctions to what is currently represented in the article, it is not unfair to say that the current content is muddled, speculative, and fails to represent much of what has been published on these topics. The attempts to actually try to give design a philosophical definition in this article are appalling and uncalled for. What is needed is an overview of what key authors/groups have said regarding design, and an account of dominant areas of philosophical debate within the (very young) field. Ideally an additional article on the philosophy of design would be useful to link to.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirrmy (talk • contribs) 02:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Design Philosophies / Philosophy of Design 

message: It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be any discussion of operational design—the relatively new process used by the US military (and others) as a competing process for solving a problem (in simplistic terms). I don't see it as a design discipline at the bottom of the article either. There's been a few dozen books and articles written on this though. Have any other editors here heard of this? --Airborne84 (talk) 00:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operational design 

message: The beginning of this section seems a bit too formal and too cautious. It is not necessary to "posit" anything about the model. The model doesn't exist independently - you won't discover later that you were wrong. Since the model is itself a concept created by a person, it has whatever characteristics designers most often associate with that model. So, you can just move directly to describing it (as the rest of the section does very well).Blcklbl (talk) 22:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Design as a Process 

message: Seems like there could be a (sub-)section on design and the scientific method - specifically the conceptual processes in research design and design of experiments. Perhaps under terminology?--A12n (talk) 20:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Design and the sciences 

message: Experience optimization (contextually - IT domain) can be defined as a symbiotic process between design (Interaction which is outcome research and analysis, editorial, Visual) and technology (implementation process) that work towards achieving the short term and long term business intent.Kumaramanikandan  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumaramanikandan (talk • contribs) 05:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Experience optimizaation 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: I have deleted the broken and blacklisted link and the message from Cyberbot II,  jacksalssome   17/01/2014  —Preceding undated comment added 05:02, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixed the blacklist problem 

message: I removed the latest addition to the definition in the lede of the article. There ae some good points here that need to be addressed . The lede should have a concise definition, while the article body should expand upon the definition and address related issues. --Ronz (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition in lede

message: stub for process Lycurgus (talk) 23:28, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do see 1 problem with clause 'and even methods of design". The given source talks about methodology oriented software development technologies. I sort of expected something about patterns. Pattern construction would have worked. Will wait for overall text review before doing anything. Lycurgus (talk) 23:48, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current tagging 

message: Conceptual design  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.211.110.194 (talk) 11:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conceptual design  

message: Well, my edit has been reverted by Freshacconci. He not only left no comments but also marked his edit as "Minor edit". He anyway violated the rule: "A check to the minor edit box signifies that only superficial differences exist... Examples include typographical corrections, formatting and presentational changes, and rearrangements of text without modification of its content. A minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute". It is clear that both my edit and Freshacconci's edit were not minor at all. So I want to get answer why my edit was reverted and why Freshacconci is violating rules. Евгений Мирошниченко (talk) 18:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: your edit was reverted because your definitions are from very specific domain, namely systems design, while the term is extremely generic. And Freshacconci probably has the default setting to label his edits as minor. He must change his edit preferences unless vast majority of his edits a re minor (types, etc.). - üser:Altenmann >t 23:18, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you but it is you assumption, not his answer. Nevertheless my edit was not vandal and used very reliable sources, so Freshacconci had to substantiate his reversal very seriously. But he left no comments and marked his edit as "Minor". It is not a behavior pattern of an experienced user. As to you argument, well. Now the article is.. very strange, I can say politely. It is actually about systems design so it seems to be a fork for systems design supplemented with some week references to "arts" field ("industrial design") and little-known theory of "The Rational Model". The majority of the "Terminology" section is about systems design: "Design and engineering", "Design and production". The majority of the sources is about engineering, mainly software engineering. And finally the current definition from "the Cambridge Dictionary of American English" is also about systems design. So there is no such a thing, "design" in general sence. There are quite different meanings of this word, and these meanings simply cannot be described in the same article. Cannot be and must not be. This artice should be turned into a disambiguation page providing simple access to different meanings of "design". I don't want to force my opinion and don't want to "fight" for it. So I say goodbye and thank you all. But guys, trust me, this article is actually abominable and you should do something with this. Евгений Мирошниченко (talk) 12:24, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes the article is shit. The subject is very generic. It waits a review by an experienced and involved person. Quite possible there are sources which discuss "design" in very generic terms. May be these sources are already used in the article. Unfortunately I don't care. - üser:Altenmann >t 03:08, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions from ISO and SEBoK 

message: As this talk page is a bit of a dog's breakfast, I think it's important to start this discussion once again. The last attempt was a few years ago. An edit war yesterday necessitates opening this discussion. Design as a topic is, if not a core article, at least important enough to warrant work towards a stable version. Right now it occasionally attracts editors who feel their personal definition is the proper one and set out to change the lead paragraph, usually without consideration of manual of style issues or general guidelines regarding the lede, as happened yesterday. So with this, I will start the discussion. Please read the guidelines on article lead paragraphs and remember that this is an article about design as a whole, not a subset of design. freshacconci (✉) 15:45, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: , : Yes, but . . . The current lead section doesn't comply with Wiki guidelines. The talk page and the whole article (including the lead section) are indeed a dog's breakfast, and the recent edit war is very disappointing to see. Because of this, I am reluctant to get involved, but the insistence on maintaining the introductory 'Design is the creation of a plan or convention' seems mis-guided. How is a design a 'convention'? Please look it up: Convention. It makes no sense to say 'Design is . . . a convention'. Similarly with 'measurable human interaction' - it makes no sense. So, IMHO, the most recent edit by "Knotwood-V" (22 November 2018) seems reasonable and should be maintained: 'Design is the creation of a plan and or schema for the construction of an object, system or behaviour.' Designergene (talk) 16:59, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hey all, I don't actually have much of an interest or stake in the proposed changes to the lede; while patrolling recent changes, I happened upon the IP editing against consensus where there was a previous dispute and figured it might be the editor who was asked to bring their changes to the talk page editing while logged out. cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 17:15, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

text:  fixing ping; I originally misspelled your username; sorry about that! cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 18:26, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: So some of the editing has not been very constructive then. Within a day or two I will make a serious attempt to provide an appropriately revised lead section. I hope it won't be casually reverted. Designergene (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion about the lede and basic definitions 

message: The recent (November 2019) addition of a set of images of neoclassical furnishings gives a dramatic new impression to the whole Design article. I don't find them appropriate or useful additions to the article. They are collectively captioned as 'Various examples of design sketches' but they lack variety and are misleading as to what a design sketch is. They lack variety because they are limited solely to furniture or furnishings, and representing work of one particular historical period or style. They are misleading because they depict finished drawings of design proposals rather than the tentative conceptualisations normally associated with a design sketch. They (perhaps) belong elsewhere as illustrations of neoclassical style in interior design. Here, they convey a very restricted interpretation of 'Design' (the article topic) and do not relate to any of the other content of the article and therefore do not 'illustrate' anything in the article. The editor who inserted the images, 'Neoclassicism Enthusiast', may be well intentioned, and is obviously enthusiastic about neoclassicism, but the images are a misplaced intrusion into this particular article. I suggest that they are inappropriate and should be removed. Designergene (talk) 16:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The above note has been here for over 7 days and has received no comments. Wikipedia Manual of Style has clear guidelines on the use of images. For example, on Pertinence and Encyclopedic Nature: "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative." The neoclassical images are not relevant to the context and are primarily decorative. And, on Images for the Lead: "It is common for an article's lead or infobox to carry a representative image—such as of a person or place, a book or album cover—to give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page." The neoclassical images do not fulfil this function and are actually misrepresenting the page. So I will remove them. Designergene (talk) 16:32, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes User:Neoclassicism Enthusiast (the clue's in the name) usually/always overdoes it. But the article, on a very visual subject, does need more images, per the MOS you cite. Lots more. Johnbod (talk) 16:48, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neoclassical images 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Deſign. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 23:01, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Deſign" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: graphic design  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.177.172.132 (talk) 09:40, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  graphic design 

message: I was reading this article http://purposeandperspective.co/hand-crafted/ while editing the Wikipedia article on the subject, and it reminded me of a concept I'd seen alluded to in other articles but never understood: intentional design. I was thinking of creating a separate Wikipedia article on intentional design and started gathering references and concepts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Greg_Dahlen/intentional_design?venotify=created#Intentional_design. But I would like to know if the current article on Design, the subject of this talk page, already covers it? It would have to be under a different term than "intentional design," since that term isn't in the article. I'm not facile enough yet with these concepts of design approach to say if intentional design is already covered in the Design article and hence I don't need to create a new, separate article.
When it comes to intentional design, I'm thinking generally in terms of product design. Greg Dahlen (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like another name for User-centered design. MrOllie (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't covered here, and I don't think it belongs here. If it belongs anywhere I'd suggest it's within UX design. The sources (blogs) you cite are not reliable, and I cannot understand from them what they intend to mean about ‘intentional design’. I found the blog https://uxplanet.org/successful-ux-design-is-intentional-design-73398a91ced confusing. Designers do normally design ‘with intention’; the blog is something about weirdly designing without purpose and then post-rationalising it. The blog https://fourandthree.com/blog/5-elements-of-intentional-design seems to confuse ‘intentional’ purpose with ‘intuitive’ use of product features. Designergene (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is intentional design already covered here? 

message: The ‘Types’ section now seems out of date and confused. ‘Art’, ‘Engineering’ and ‘Production’ are not ‘types’ of design. ‘Process design’ is already linked in the list of ‘Design disciplines’ as are Engineering design and Production design and Applied arts, etc. So the ‘Types’ section seems to be un-necessary. It  seems to be a kind of limited set of statements of ‘compare and contrast’ design with art, engineering, etc. Why? The opening sentence refers to ‘various fields’ rather than ‘types’, and the section below lists ‘Design disciplines’, which are particular types of design fields or application areas. The whole section is confused and composed of loose generalisations or opinions. It doesn’t add to understanding of Design, which is now sufficiently well-established on its own to not need to try to explain how it is different from art, engineering, etc. I would like to propose that it is no longer fit for purpose and should be deleted. Designergene (talk) 10:15, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Designergene, Feel free to be bold and remove the section in the bold, revert, discuss cycle. Just do whatever feels right to you – you will improve the article much faster this way. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:52, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Types' - proposal to delete section. 

message: say about it 175.100.10.3 (talk) 16:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  home 

message: I reverted the addition of a Charles Eames quote to the lead. My edit summary was: removed quote that is too ambiguous for the lead section: it doesn't make a clear statement about the subject, doesn't adequately summarize the cited source, and, e.g., some problem solving may occur not by design but by trial and error, so it may not be true that the boundaries of design are equivalent to the boundaries of problems as the quote could be interpreted. Please discuss if you disagree. Biogeographist (talk) 22:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eames quote 

message: marketing 102.128.79.60 (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is design