Talk:Elvis Presley/Archive 20

message: I'm not sure about this. We've got multiple citations covering his roots, yet the latest version omits what seems like an equally valid claim that he also had Jewish roots (included in an earlier version). If we keep finding out more, how long are we gonna let the list grow? I suggest, as I actually have done so before, that in the main text, details of his ancestry are limited to the origin of his surname, which limits him to being of mainly Scottish and German roots. Additional details can be put in the Notes. Otherwise there's a danger the article will look very boring right at the beginning. Rikstar 03:25, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the person who says only Elvis' "predominant" ancestry should be included: If you check the sources, his last German and Scottish ancestors were in the early 1700s (and there's no indication that they kept marrying other German or Scottish people over in the United States). His last Cherokee ancestor was his great-great-great-grandmother (whose name was "Morning Dove"; not the name of his grandmother), which is one generation less than his Jewish ancestor, his great-great-grandmother. Thus, of the ancestry listed on the page, the Jewish one is in fact the most recent, not the most distant. If you want to delete all his ancestry, that may be a valid argument. But deleting the Jewish part and saying it's because it is more distant of the ones listed is in fact the exact opposite of being factually accurate. Mad Jack 18:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Can o worms! I tried to undo the bit about "that makes him Jewish according to the Jewish religion" bit. (v  e   r   r .... slow response from the server) Let's leave religion out of it, shall we? I think things were ok until the religion bit was added. Maybe he's entitled to tribal rights, too, but so what? Steve Pastor 21:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, that can be removed - I never said I supported that part of the sentence (about the religion). However, there is zero to no reason for deleting the fact that Elvis had Jewish ancestry, especially since the other ancestry groups listed comprised even less of his heritage. There is even a full book written about his Jewish ancestry - , which does not appear to be the case for his Cherokee, Scottish, German (or other) ancestry. Mad Jack 01:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can be bothered about this issue, the main thing of interest is the origin of his surname. We know his pa was a Presley, but how far back does the name go? Is it Scotland, 1745? Or does the rather unsatisfactory 'Pressler', of 1710, win the box of candy? This is different, admittedly, from listing his most recent (Jewish?) ancestry. BTW, there is a whole book on Presley's Scottish origins - The Presley Prophecy, by Allan Morrison. Whatever people decide, I propose to severely limit prose in the main text about this issue, and keep all references and any discussion/controversy on the matter well out of the way, in the Notes. It needs cleaning up at this moment. Like I wrote above, this is a Good Article that could look quite messy, or boring, right at the beginning, because of multiple listings and references, as if certain races/religions are fighting to 'own' his ancestry. If it isn't resolved, deleting the whole section might be the kind thing to do. Rikstar 05:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm really flabbergasted (spelling?) at the constant removals of this one part of his ancestry. Can't all of Elvis's multiple ancestry groups get along? I actually don't think his last name is that interesting - "Presley" isn't that uncommon a surname, and many Americans are quite far removed in ancestry and culture from what their original surname was. This one sentence also isn't that lengthy or intrusive. But again, I am not necessarily opposed to the entire sentence's removal, just to this odd game of pick-and-chose that seems to be fairly randomly played. Mad Jack 05:26, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I totally agree about all ancestry groups getting fair mention somewhere (main text or Notes); it's either that or nothing at all. I think the bit about him being technically Jewish, according to its customs, is extraneous, and should be in the Notes. As for his name not being that interesting - now I'm flabbergasted! People heard his name in the mid-Fifties and couldn't get their heads round it. Both parts of his name were often mispronounced, notably by DJ Dewey Phillips. Most significantly, people couldn't 'work out' which ethnic group/colour to associate it with, or just assumed that, with a first name like 'Elvis', AND a surname like 'Presley', he must be black. So I tend to feel the name origin is interesting. Rikstar 05:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the ancestry mention entirely. There's no evidence that Presley was "mostly" Scotch-Irish (in fact, I would guess he was mostly English). And there appears to be a disagreement on the origin of his surname, "Presley", because this source says the first Presley was Scottish, not German . Also, I am not quite sure what Tellerman agrees with Ulritz about, since Ulritz simply removed the Jewish part, and not, in fact, Presley's more distant ancestries, i.e. Cherokee and German. Mad Jack 06:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Donald Presley said that Elvis assumed his ancestry was mostly Scotch-Irish, so if we were to put any ancestry, I guess that would be the best. As for "Pressler," what Mad Jack put doesn't really conflict with that trivia. It only says that the "Presleys" were of Scottish origin, meaning the Presley family, not the Presley surname. I think that should be added back. Tellerman 06:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These sources state that Elvis' first American ancestor arrived in North Carolina in 1745, the son of two Scots-people who were married in Scotland in 1713. This source, on the other hand, says that Elvis first American ancestor was Johann Valentin Pressler, a German or Prussian who immigrated stateside in 1710. Clearly, there is a conflict of information here - either Elvis is descended from the Scotsman - or from the German - or perhaps none of the above... As for what Presley assumed or thought of his own ancestry, this states that he "was well aware of his Jewish ancestry" and put a Star of David on his mother's grave "in honour of his Jewish heritage". You could probably find some similar statement for his Cherokee Native American ancestry, which brings us back to the game of pick-and-chose.  Mad Jack 07:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this, btw, his Jewish maternal ancestor was from Lithuania. That is a new piece of info. Mad Jack 07:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Most Southern whites native to the South are of Scots-Irish ancestry - a group that almost entirely immigrated to the USA and most of whom refer to themselves on census forms as American - see the wikipedia related links for the census to confirm. That said - regarding Elvis - he seems to certainly be of Scots-Irish ancestry, with small amounts of Jewish, German, and Cherokee mixed in - seems to be distinctly AMERICAN to me - but that is a caveaut(sic) - Why not compromise here with a mention of all these ancestry in a well worded sentence or two so that it fits with the format of the article?  I have no objections to including the whole lot of them if they are done something like: Presley lineage traces to several ethnic backgrounds being predominately Scots-Irish in origin. His other ancestry's include Jewish, Cherokee Indian, and German. -- Or something better than that. I think we can come up with a worthy compromise here. --Northmeister 23:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Northmeiser, your suggestion about how this should be placed sounds good to me. However, I will note that it is not clear if he actually had German ancestry or not. The story about his immigrant German ancestor (Presler) seems to conflict directly with the story about his immigrant Scottish ancestor (Presley). Mad Jack 08:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think the majority of any details should be in the Notes, with only a brief sentence about his ancestry/origin of surname in the main article. If we stick to mentioning the earliest record of an ancestor with his surname emigrating to the US, which seems to be Andrew Presley of Scotland (1745), we can then include any weblinks to ancestry articles in the Notes. Readers of those links can decide for themselves what his ancestry was predominantly, or whether he was Jewish, or whatever. I don't think we have to (try to) spell everything out, just give people the facts. Rikstar 09:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that the disagreement centers around words' (not the song - lol) such as "Predominate" or the inclusion of some ancestry and not others. The sources seem to indicate that one: Presley is of Scottish Ancestry (Scot-Irish as he assumed per D. Presley and which makes considerable sense considering he was from the deep south); two: Presley is of Jewish Ancestry due to his mothers line (which is factually accurate either way you look at it); three: Presley is of Cherokee Indian Ancestry (Morning Dove is well documented being in his mothers line as well); four: Surname is of German? ancestry. The surname Presley stands for "Priests Meadow" in old English by the way. I really don't see where it hurts that we include Socts-Irish, Jewish, Cherokee Indian as his ancestry as definative in the introductory paragraph or sentence to the Biography. Doing so in a concise way without insisting on which ancestry is predominate would be helpful to the reader who wishes to know something of Elvis' ancestry. Rikstar - I understand your arguments against inclusion - but I really don't think it would be all that bad to include a well constructed sentence mentioning Elvis' origins and staying neutral as to which is predominate or not. The list is simple enough: Jewish-Indian-Scots-Irish (or Scottish) - leave a note on the German possibility in notes. --Northmeister 22:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good argument - I agree with you. Rikstar 02:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Northmeister and Rikstar. Many Wikipedia articles state even more distant ancestry then some of Elvis's, plus, there are books written about his Jewish and Scottish ancestry (probably Native American too, if one looks hard enough) so clearly it is a notable enough subject. Mad Jack 05:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think his ancestry is interesting and the fact (if so) that he put a star of David on his mother's grave is really interesting. That almost makes Elvis Jewish by his own estimation. But having said that, the four part list (Jewish-Indian-Scots-Irish) is probably enough.--Timtak 20:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, but remember that, in Judaism, he'd be Jewish if his mother was Jewish - unless he became a Christian.  So the Star of David on his mother's grave indeed becomes an important clue for geneologists to wrestle with. Does anybody here have enough endurance to sort this out? 66.183.87.254 06:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Presley's ancestry

message: Just done a few edits to ready the article for a Featured Article nomination. Notes still need work, in addition to any other edits recommended by anyone else. Rikstar 19:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll go through the article to see what I can do over the next few days - prob. starting tomorrow. --Northmeister 23:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article looks great. Save the controversy above which I feel can be resolved. Looks like once we work out that issue we might be able to move onto featured try. --Northmeister 23:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you think so ("It's been a long time, baby..."). Rikstar 23:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have done some more cleanup of the Notes, and added some details I thought should be included. I feel like there should be something else (only a Note late in the article so far) about Presley's more cerebral interests - philosophy, religion, and all the reading he did. It should tie in with the fact that he was fundamentally unhappy in some ways, and that he started a kind of 'personal journey of meaning and discovery', not disimilar to the Beatles, Dylan, Beach Boys, et al, even before them. What do you guys think? Nothing too long, but I'm still aware that some other music biographies of featured article status are 100kb in length. Rikstar 18:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We should be careful with the length of the article. Although such information is relevant to the man and of interest to readers I think. As long as the important stuff about his music and music career don't get truncated as a result of including the above - I say give it a shot. It's August already and we should be looking to try getting this article as a 'featured' one. --Northmeister 20:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - nothing should 'spoil' what we've already got. I saw an opportunity in the Hollywood section and gone for it. Like you say, it's the kind of thing that helps to make things interesting, even surprising, to many readers. I think this is the way to go to increase the article's appeal (bearing in mind length). Rikstar 07:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up

message: According to the IMDB, an unreleased Presley/Parker martial arts film was discovered in 2003, along with footage of a Bruce Lee demonstration of martial arts. Sounds notable enough to include in this article if anyone has any other knowledge or sources and info. --82.4.221.60 23:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could be a footnote of interest. The making of a documentary about Karate is fully covered in Guralnick's Careless love. Rikstar 05:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A note on the karate filming has been added to the Military service section. Rikstar 09:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recently-discovered film? 

message: Your statement,  
"Presley was a big movie fan and admired Marlon Brando, James Dean and Tony Curtis. He returned from the army eager to continue - and improve - his acting." is a comment on the thoughts of Elvis rather than a provable fact.Goodpaster 15:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point: the statement is not so much just a comment on his thoughts, but more a valid observation that should have had a citation to support it. I'm sure a citation can be found to support the statement - otherwise it can be edited out and the intro to 'Hollywood years' rewritten. Rikstar 19:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. Rikstar 06:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I see a Filmography section has been added. This simply duplicates what already exists in a wikilink in the Hollywood section. I think the new addition should be deleted. Didn't spot it earlier. Rikstar 21:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the Filmography section and put it in place of the film list in the wkilink, because the new one is formatted better and contains more info. Rikstar 06:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: RogueGremlin has reinstated the Filmography section in the main article. The wikilink to 'List of Elvis Presley films' is now redundant. Needs cleanup or deleting. Rikstar 12:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that the Bob Dylan Featured Article has a separate wikilink for Discography and Film. We need to follow successful formats if Featured status is going to be achieved. Rikstar 17:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollywood years 

message: This article states that Elvis is the only performer to have been inducted into three music 'Halls of Fame'.  However, an article on Wikipedia about Brenda Lee says she has been inducted into three as well. Richnrich04 23:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call. I just amended the article, Presley is in four halls of fame - Rockabilly hall added. Rikstar 10:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  three music 'Halls of Fame' 

message: What's the world coming to? I mean, people don't appreciate good music anymore! I don't feel safe anymore knowing that there's people who would like to vandalize "the king"! I mean, I just can't believe people are that immature to make fun of a music star/legend. Gosh, the guy is DEAD people! Have some respect! 
Well, the racist only became famous because he stole black music. (Daer11 12:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow, I can't believe we have to protect this article from vandalism! 

message: Anyone else agree we need to trim this page? Rikstar 07:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time to archive? 

message: The following originally posted to my talk page Lara♥Love 01:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think that your response to my critical remarks was appropriate. That's why I posted a summary of these remarks on LaraLove's talk page. Significantly, you have deleted LaraLove's contribution, thereby preventing my statement from being discussed. Onefortyone 03:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvements

message: LaraLove: "The following [above] originally posted to my talk page Lara♥Love 01:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to second Rikstar's observations on onefortyone. This user should of been banned long ago for his disruptive behavior and non-compliance with Wikipedia rules of conduct. --Northmeister 14:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Northmeister. Rikstar 00:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Warning: disruptive behavior

message: It's been said that Elvis recorded a song called The Truth About the Jews (or The Truth About the Jew), which was banned due to its anti-semitic nature. I've heard this song myself, and it does indeed sound quite a bit like him (although Elvis' voice is not that difficult to imitate). The lyrics go:
Judeo Christians everywhere,
They think they really care,
As for myself I can't conceive,
All the things that they believe...
My one and only prayer,
Is that some day I'll share,
My hopes my dreams come true,
The truth about the Jews...
None of us can ever know,
How much they hate us so,
My only prayer will be,
Some day they all will see,
But its all only make believe...
My heart and wedding ring,
Jesus is all my everything,
He sets my heart on fire,
To find out who's a liar...
Some of us already know,
How far we have to go,
My only prayer will be,
Some day they all will see,
But its all only make believe...
My one and only prayer,
Is that some day I'll share,
My hopes my dreams come true,
The truth about the Jews...
None of us can ever know,
How much they hate us so,
My only prayer will be,
Some day the rest will see,
But its all only make believe...
However, I can't find any really credible sources to back it up. I do believe this is worth mentioning in the article though, if the proper sources can be obtained. --MosheA 01:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elvis's anti-Semitism is mentioned in Mark Crispin Miller's academic study, Boxed in: The Culture of TV (Northwestern University Press, 1988), p.191. The chapter on "The King" is partly based on accounts by the members of the Memphis Mafia who reportedly spent day and night with Elvis. Certainly these guys must have known whether Elvis had anti-Semitic tendencies.Onefortyone 03:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Have no knowledge of this whatsoever. The lyrics are a reworking of "It's only make believe" by, amongst others, Conway Twitty. Sounds like another smear tactic by those who hate Presley or think he's overrated. Rikstar 16:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying. I've had the song on iTunes for the longest time, and I've always doubted whether it was real or not. --MosheA 17:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elvis and Jews 

message: 135.245.8.34 14:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the first Note in the main article!!! Rikstar 16:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elvis middle name 

message: He is alive in pacific island!! Elvis not dead a doll was used in the burial.
:Please don't leave comments like this in these talk pages, unless you have his current address and we can send CNN or the BBC out to verify. Thank you.Rikstar 16:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That said, the "Elvis is alive" meme should at least be mentioned in the article (see below).  --Hyperbole 07:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elvis is alive!!!!! 

message: I think wiki convention is to use the surname throughout the article, except where it affects quotes and readability (e.g. Tupelo Hardware purchase of first guitar). It may look formal, but it is better than looking biased, as if star-struck "Elvis Fans" have done the editing. Rikstar 18:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Elvis" and "Presley"

message: wasnt he originaly blonde?
:Ash blonde, I think. Dyed hair darker/black from 1957. Occasionally had more natural hair color, army, post-army, in Kissin' Cousins and off screen/stage e.g. 1967. Rikstar 19:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blonde

message: Under The Hollywood Years, Elvis is listed as recording "Suspicion"...maybe "Suspicious Minds"?? I think an artist named Terry Stafford recorded "Suspicion".Tfath 20:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elvis did sing a good version of the Terry Stafford song. Rikstar 21:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Suspicion" 

message: Mark Crispin Miller's academic study, Boxed in (1988) includes several critical remarks on Elvis based on eyewitness accounts by the Memphis Mafia members. In his chapter on "The King", the author writes:
:Elvis gradually became an explosive megalomaniac as his wealth and boredom increased over the years. His body was ravaged by pills. He loved guns, and regularly shot out television sets and light fixtures, sometimes nearly killing various acquaintances. He was obsessed with law enforcement, tagged along on narcotics investigations in Memphis, and was so intent on getting himself a real narc's badge (an honorary one wouldn't do) that he finally went to see another maniac, then this country's president, and got what he wanted. He was cruel to his "friends" (it is hard to find an accurate word for hired companions), intolerant to other performers, anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, and contemptuous of women, causing at least three of them serious physical injury. 
See Mark Crispin Miller, Boxed in: The Culture of TV (Northwestern University Press, 1988), p.191. Similar accounts can be found in the book, Elvis: What Happened? These important details concerning Presley's personal life are not mentioned in the article. Onefortyone 03:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you remember what Northmeister, who seems to be identical with my old opponent User:Ted Wilkes, recommended on 20 May? He said, "I proposed ... that he [Onefortyone] submit his contributions on the talk page and allow other editors to comment or revise before putting them in - thus showing good faith with us that he wishes to help and not obstruct our intentions..." See . This is exactly what I am doing in order to show good faith. That's why I have not yet included additional or alternative material in the article. I am certainly not free from prejudice against some contributors such as Northmeister, but I have watched the article, collected some additional material and tried to make some suggestions on the talk page. However, I am not satisfied with the reaction of the Elvis fans who, in my opinion, still dominate the article. Northmeister has still a biased view. Although I must be thankful that you, Rikstar, have considered at least some of my suggestions, your view is not neutral. As several of your contributions (including "warnings" and attacks against me) show, you are still on Northmeister's side. I have not yet seen you posting a critical remark against this user, though he has a rather dubious contribution history. See his frequent edit wars with, and personal attacks against, administrator Will Beback and other users whose opinions are not in line with his personal view: , , , . He was even blocked several times by different administrators for WP:3RR, incivility, disruptive behavior, etc. in the past. See , , , , , , . See also these comments: , , , , , . In the last arbitration case concerning the Elvis article, the arbcom has clearly confirmed that my "editing has substantially improved" and that a "sampling of edits shows reference to reliable sources without overstating of their content." The arbcom also said that my opponent "has removed large blocks of sourced material from Elvis Presley" and that he "shows evidence of misunderstanding of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view." Therefore he was "banned indefinitely from editing articles which concern Elvis Presley." This should make all Elvis fans think before removing my edits or posting attacks against me and my well-sourced contributions on this talk page. The problem is that most unbiased Wikipedia users are not interested in Elvis Presley, his music and personal life. Query: who is still interested in the singer? It is certainly not the younger generation. It is primarily our grandfathers' and grandmothers' generation who grew up with rock 'n' roll music. When this generaton dies out, EPE will have real problems to make money, that's for sure. Be that as it may, I will contribute additional material to the Elvis article in the near future. But you can be sure that Northmeister will be the first to remove these additions, and it is to be feared that the former edit war will continue. Onefortyone 14:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I do admire your tenacity and patience. With all the knowledge you have, and you keep your contributions confined to the talk pages. Forgive me, Onefortyone, but if we were to make all the changes and inclusions you (and others with similar intentions) have suggested, the Presley article would give the impression that he was a singer and musician who couldn't sing or play an instrument and a gay, Jew-hating, pop-pilling, racist bigot who had sex with his mother, strangers, his Memphis Mafia buddies and for all I know, his pet chimp. And kids don't like him. Try as I might, I have not been able to find - in my vast search of similar 'neutral' encyclopedic-style works on Presley - a single one that comes close to this bizarre assessment. Now why is that? PLEASE don't tell me EPE are behind it; lots of these 'facts' would have come out before EPE started throwing its weight around. Rikstar 15:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, what are you talking about? We are writing a biography. I have contributed much material to most chapters on Elvis's life and career, some of these contributions are still in the article, others have been removed, although they were well sourced. If there are some unpleasant details that deeply affected Elvis's life, then this material should be mentioned in the article, especially if it is supported by several independent sources. For instance, here are some interesting additions I found in Jerry Schilling's book, Me and a Guy named Elvis. Schilling relates that one way to really arouse the wrath of Elvis was to play one of his own recordings at his parties - "Get that crap off," was his reaction on one occasion when someone had the temerity to put "All Shook Up" on the jukebox. Concerning the "prescription" drugs, Schilling says that, as early as 1964, Presley and company were regularly taking Dexedrine, or "speed", to keep them awake at night while driving between venues, then resorting to sleeping tablets to rest up the next day. The Dexedrine, he adds, "was also a diet thing, if he was getting back to making another movie and had put on some pounds". However, he still thinks it wasn't these pills that affected Presley so badly as the painkillers, upon which he became dependent, for chronic complaints such as a twisted colon. He doesn't believe that it was drugs that helped kill Presley at the age of 42, so much as his acute sense of creative disappointment and frustration. The price of being one of the highest-paid performers in Hollywood was the second and third-rate film scripts and other material with which he was landed. "I believe the drugs were just the Band-Aid," says Schilling. "You can't take a genius like he was and just give them the same old stuff." It wasn't until he saw a posthumous screening of a CBS TV special filmed shortly before the singer's death that he realized how much Elvis had become a bloated caricature of himself. "I never, in all the years I knew him, saw him look anything close to that," he says. "I was furious with the Colonel and said, 'How could you have let him even walk on stage, let alone in front of a camera, like that?' Presley, Schilling concludes, "was not about being normal. He was either hot or cold, no in between". Onefortyone 17:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is accepted that Presley was a drug misuser, I've actually gone to some lengths to detail its effects on the singer. I don't know why or how you missed the point I was making about the negative, sexually and gay oriented, mother-loving stuff you have dwelt on before, and which I fear you will return to when you actually do some editing. We are indeed writing a biography - one that it is NPOV Rikstar 17:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I still do not understand what you are talking about. I have contributed to many different topics. It is interesting that you are only harping on the "negative, sexually and gay oriented, mother-loving stuff", although nothing of this was mentioned in the article's long version in May, shortly before Northmeister started removing lots of paragraphs, including the critical "Elvis cult" section. As for the drug sbuse, these are some additional remarks by an eyewitness. Onefortyone 17:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Elvis the "unpredictable monster" (Mark Crispin Miller)