Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive 8

message: Hello, I know you do not trust anonymous editors... But I have Asperger's so I know... And this is what my psychiatrist told me...
Think it'd be appropriate for a talk page archive now?  I don't think we've touched some of the top half in a pretty long while now and the page is just getting enormous :3  --Keyne 13:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was ready to suggest that sometime yesterday, but Zeraeph has initiated some admin action against me, and has referred to this talk page as reference for his claims of my "abuse".  If you don't mind, I'm afraid we'll need to leave it up for a few days, until admins can comment on his allegations of my abusive behavior.  Sorry :-(  Sandy 13:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is completely incorrect as, however the page is archive, any admin who wished could still find the references in moments. --Zeraeph 19:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: When we do archive, we should figure out if we're finished with items 8 and 9 in the TOC above.  (I'm pretty sure we're done with 1 - 7?)  There are a lot of resources still listed above that I'm not sure if we've used or are going to use?  Sandy 14:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks, Francis!  Sandy 17:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk cleanup? 

message: *So I don't forget where I put the automated bot peer review:  Talk:Asperger syndrome/peer review
*Asked someone to run a bot cleanup.
*And, I added the ref about above-average intelligence to the lead, leaving the other ref Zeraeph mentioned.  RDos, I fixed some of your refs in Causes and Treatment (there were some conflicting dates), so please check that I didn't mess them up.  Sandy 17:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Brought forward from archive

message: This is a one-sentence paragraph, that was commented that it needed to be expanded:
:Some people seem to be at the extreme end of the temperament scale.Hepburn SL, Stone WL. Using Carey Temperament Scales to Assess Behavioral Style in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders. Retrieved 19 July 2006. 
The wording is vague "Some", "seem to be", and the thought needs to be expanded or incorporated into another paragraph, to avoid stubby paragraphs. Sandy 23:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the study, and reworked the wording a bit.  Sandy 02:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: This section mainly reflects the views of Attwood, Gillberg, and Wing on the most important characteristics of AS; the DSM-IV criteria represent a slightly different view.
What is "slightly different" in the DSM?  Sandy 23:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More cleanup comments found in text

message: The article doesn't have much to say about the various diagnostic instruments and procedures that are in use in clinical practice. It would be good to see this aspect expanded -- perhaps to say a little bit more about (a) diagnosis in children, (b) diagnosis in adults and (c) self diagnosis. I get the impression that the latter is likely to be somewhat contentious though: as far as I can tell, the medical establishment tends to caution against it, whereas the autistic community seems to encourage it. Cat Fish 23:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur that this information needs to be expanded, and that more information relative to diagnosis in children is needed.  Sandy 23:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we say a bit more about diagnosis? 

message: There are some terms I can’t find any equivalent links for, couldn't find, or wonder if anyone can think of anything to search on:
*diagnostic screen or screening instruments
*Under Speech and language peculiarities, using a far more formal register of language than appropriate for a context. Should that be Register (linguistics) or Tone (linguistics).  Sandy 00:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikilinks

message: Aside from various reorganization and wordings, we really need a lot more information in the "Research" and "Treatment" sections; diagnosis discussion also needs more information, particularly diagnostic info and procedures.  It could probably be something as simple as addint a line or two regarding the studies mentioned, but something does need to be done; they both look weak, despite good references.  Could some ref-reader buffs assist in expanding these sections, please?  --Keyne 03:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm done for the day.  I can look at them tomorrow if no one gets to them.  We could grab something from that emed link in the infobox, or from the NINDS.  Sandy 03:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I just did a size check to see where we are in terms of content addition.  Overall size is 55KB, prose size is 32KB; both of those are respectable, and we have some room to grow.  30-40KB prose usually results in a comprehensive article, without being overly-long.  WP:SIZE WP:SS  The older restrictions on 30KB were based on technology limitations, and with current referencing requirements, it's not unusual to see FAs with up to 125KB overall size, and 50KB prose.  Sandy 21:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Need'' content additions 

message: It really isn't appropriate to toss out the phrase "Asperger's Disorder" as though it were a known and universal synonym for AS when referring to the DSM classification. Especially when you also say "This section mainly reflects the views of Attwood, Gillberg, and Wing on the most important characteristics of AS; the DSM-IV criteria represent a slightly different view.".
The DSM equivalents of a lot of well know conditions are not exact synonyms, or undisputed, and when they are it is best to use words like "equivalent" or "corelates" to be exact. In the intro it is better to specify the name change if only for the benefit of anyone who wishes to do a plain text search relating specifically to DSM criteria.
It really isn't appropriate to state that Hans Asperger specified AS as a "personality disorder". In some countries and contexts this error might even be considered pejorative, let alone POV. Under UK and Irish judicial and some psychiatric definitions "personality disorder" is used as a synonym for "criminal psychopath", "psychopathy" in German, only meant "mental disorder" (quite different in definition to a "personality disorder", as far as I am aware there was not any German equivalent for "personality disorder" in 1944), so it is vital to be very careful of the language used around Herr Doktor Asperger...best not to advance any distortion in translation unecessarily. "Disorder" (without misleading wikilinking to "personality disorder") would also be ok, but "condition" seems, of it's nature, to be far more neutral. --Zeraeph 12:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Two small changes

message: Is mediation still sought in this case? Torinir ( Ding my phone My support calls E-Support Options ) 23:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Torinir, but since requesting mediation I have has reason to recognise that it would be inappropriate and impossible in this particular case, see more details here: Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-07-19_Domineering_Editor_on_Asperger_Syndrome --Zeraeph 23:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem. I just signed up for MedCab and saw a backlog. I guess the case can be locked, then. Torinir ( Ding my phone My support calls E-Support Options ) 23:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MedCab case 

message: Where are we on these?  Should we try to pound something out on the talk page?  Looking at the FA criteria, prose is good, references are now good, NPOV and stability concerns seem to be gone — so, if we can nail down those two remaining areas, comprehensive will be covered, and that should do it.  Wondering if Dubhagan is still working on it, or if I should try to put up a sample something here on the talk page.  Sandy 01:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Still working on reading through the PDF file, I'll let you know when I'm done that.  --Dubhagan 05:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Dubhagan.  Sandy 05:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Treatment, Research and Causes

message: I think remarks like this "A five-year-old child with this condition may regularly speak in language that could easily have come from a university textbook" should be taken out, as they may lead an lesser educated reader in a dead corner. A university textbook is something that everyone can image just as well as a 5 year old....neurological development forbids something for this to happen. Even a student won`t speak university textbook style. Speaking implies an active process of understanding. This may be meantioned in the paper but should still not be included in wikipedia. Lemme know how you feel and edit accordingly after some more replies.Slicky 18:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep.  Ironically, "Speaking implies an active process of understanding." is precisely what that passage indicates.  That, "Even a student won`t speak university textbook style." is mostly true indicates why that particular line is an important differentiation from "the norm."  Effectively, it means that the child is speaking at a "university level" (in some respects). --Keyne 22:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exclude 

message: The links section needs to have some standards. What's the point of linking to a bunch of link directories? We should link to the most relevant sites and maybe link to one relevant directory of links. The link directory should have the sites we'd link to in the article. I saw someone reverted a link because it was included in a link directory. that makes no sense. Perl 17:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it makes sense, per WP:NOT and WP:EL.  No one editor can determine what are "the most relevant sites"; if there is a directory, it gives a start.  I reverted a link that was already included in the references, by the way.  Sandy 17:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem reverting a link that's already included in the references. I did note that someone took out WrongPlanet but it was added back. The rationalization for its removal was that it was included in the directory. That's what I had a problem with. Perl 18:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was/is talk page agreement on the external links; please review.  Sandy 18:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes there was. And I seem to remember the outcome being different. Adding links to support groups is not a problem. If something changed since then, there should have been more time. Some people don't have time to go to wikipedia each day. Perl 18:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: That's also the conclusion I thought we came to, and that Wrong Planet didn't need another separate link.  Sandy 19:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  links 

message: Ok, it is obvious that we no longer have consensus on this. So let's discuss it again till we do.
The initial problem was that User:SandyGeorgia wanted to dispense with links altogether and just link to the DMOZ category, that so happens to be (along with selecting any replacement editor) under the sole control of one of the most biased, agenda driven, anti-wikipedia, NT individuals on the net, so THAT wouldn't do, now would it?
Personally I would be happier to see DMOZ gone altogether and give just a small selection of the best links, and one of the remaining directories - any other ideas? --Zeraeph 16:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately different people will have different ideas as to what the best links are (Wikipedia does not like a lot of links).  Personally, I'd prefer favoring link directories (incl. DMOZ) over individual links, since there are so many links out there.  I like DMOZ, there are a lot of good links on it, even though many consider it biased.  --Dubhagan 02:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: DMOZ has issues, but in this case, we haven't seen evidence of important links left out.  And, we have to consider Wiki's policies and guidelines, in WP:EL and WP:NOT.  The current links look fine to me; if anything, I would question the external link to a book publisher as an inappropriate commercial link.   Sandy 18:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't seen what I am wearing but that doesn't mean I am naked. --Zeraeph 19:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are naked [under your clothes]!  :)  Can you substantiate a claim against impartiality v. DMOZ links (and those left out)?  --Keyne 13:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes I can but not publicly...and just because YOU are all naked and unseemly under your clothes, don't assume everyyone else is...some of us have STANDARDS ;o) --Zeraeph 11:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS Apart from the obvious fact that even wrongplanet is missing from the actual AS category...haven't you ever asked yourself why this Wikipedia article is missing? --Zeraeph 11:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I don't understand is why we refuse to link to the largest Asperger community. Such a link is very helpful and very relevant. There was a link to an Aspies for Freedom article and the link to Wrong Planet was removed. Aspiesforfreedom is a very small group comparitively. Also, the quality of the article seems to have gone down hill since I stopped working on it (other old school admins left as well). Perl 12:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two simple answers (AFAIK):  Wrong Planet has its own entry in Wiki.  Internal links are always preferable to external links on Wiki (can't remember where I read that - maybe WP:EL).  At one point, I had made a new template, which included *every* See also in the AS and autism articles, so that we'd have them all in one place.  Someone objected (can't remember who), so I speedy deleted it.  I could re-do it if wanted.  But, Wrong Planet has its own link; hence, doesn't need an external link.  Links which are already included in Notes, References, or See also don't need to be in External links (I believe the idea being to help conform with WP:NOT).  On the DMOZ (Wiki missing), AFAIK, DMOZ requires submissions from webmasters.  Who is the "webmaster" of a Wiki entry ?  I'm not sure if DMOZ includes any Wiki entries. Sandy 01:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Excuse me? Dmoz requires WHAT??? Where in this  does it say: "DMOZ requires submissions from webmasters"? --Zeraeph 02:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: At the request of Zeraeph (;D) I'm participating in the discussion...I added this link last week, and it has since been removed. I don't mind. I just thought it was an intersting article, but if the guards of the AS page think it's too unprofessional, then by all means, keep it removed. --HantaVirus 14:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You may not have noticed that the Wired article is already specifically mentioned in the article and included among links already provided.  Per WP:EL and WP:NOT, we are trying to avoid a link farm; sources which are already included in directories, in the body of the text, or in references or citations need not also be included in External links.  Sandy 14:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Part 1

message: ::::::Meh, what I do is highlight the PMID article title and paste it into the google search engine.  I consider PMID a starting point.  --Dubhagan 19:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I do, or google the names of the authors...to me it's just a good crib list...but there are a few articles fully accessible and when PMID was being so blithely chucked around as "superior" citations, in favor of which all others must go, without other links to the articles, my fevered brain had assumed that the full articles were on PUBmed...--Zeraeph 20:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, there is some variance, as Dubhagan pointed out, and Zaraeph mentions some of the range.  Personally, I am approaching 20 and may be at a turing point in my sexual experiences, and have been making significant progress for the past frew years.  I do have some fear of touching, but they may in part be related to something disturbing that happened to a loved one and the negative stimuli I have gotten back sometimes from misreads and (if I may say so) a politically correct, third-wave feminism-affected society (I live in L.A.) that favors women when in doubt.  So naturally my fear of rejection and some maybe irrational fears are magnified, but the teenage years are typically rough, if rewarding too, and I have not experimented enough to reap as many of the benefits.  But I definitely have sexual interest, and staunchly disapprove of the "never had, never miss" attitude said above.  Perhaps my Asperger's is on the less severe side of the spectrum, and I may be more willing than some to change, even if fighitng and kicking; I cannot thank some of my neurotypical friends enough and I may be in a position to "assimilate" (while staying true to self) and play the social games with the rules better than many Aspies.  I did score a 41 when I took the AQ test yesterday though.  I thank Sandy for that research, even if its results are not uplifting (but commonly reported): Socially and sexually, Aspies are more likely to be depressed, anxious, and unsuccessful.  Higher rates of suicide have resulted.  But it is even worse for Auties.  Not very heartening for me, but perhaps it should put my stuggles, failures, and successes in better perspective.  Almost since UCLA diagnosed me in late 1999, Flowers for Algernon has been my favorite story for the cognizance/education v. ignorance battle that concluded ignorance may indeed be bliss (hasn't stopped me from learning more about the condition and the world).  What do you think of the Aspergers social guides recommended above for sexual situations and/or just social ones?  Perhaps I speak for other Aspies when I say self-help may not go as far in the sexual aspect.  And sorry for making this so personal, but the information here would I hope not just help me but other Aspies and people reading this, and may bring up some things to add to the article (this topic REALLY should be in it.  It mentions greater realtionship problems, but does not talk about sexuality and internal battles raging in Aspies. Minutiaman 18:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From my heart I agree with every word you are saying...--Zeraeph 19:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We actually had a talk about this subject about a month or so ago.  Unfortunately there is nothing concrete either way on this subject nor is there much research going on in this subject so it's really tough to include this subject in the article without major objections to what gets said.  --Dubhagan 19:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Four things: 1. Dubhagan, can you be more specific about that conversation (the name or closer to when)?  If not, it is probably easy enough to locate.  2. Zeraeph, did that last compliment refer to what I said?  If so, thank you.  3. I was thinking that this article may not deserve featured article status, not to the fault of its editors, but to disagreements in the medical, psychiatric, and whatever other communities over this fairly recent but important subject.  It is glaringly missing some elements that would make it sufficiently comprehensive, but as Dubhagan and disagreements over where to find related information suggest, this article may best reflect the unresolved nature of the topic by adressing what it can (which it does well) and earning near-featured article status (or whatever it is called).  4. Beyond that they are more likely to struggle with relationships, to what extent is the Aspie sexual life spectrum known - including roughly about what percentage (maybe not that precise, but vague words like "many" mean little) of Aspies are lifelong virgins, or get married (I doubt anyone has documented the health of those marriages)?  "Many" obviously fall between, but those were examples and at opposite ends of the spectrum.  The 40-Year-Old Virgin probably disproportionately describes a minority of Aspies' sexual lives, or something similar, as well. Minutiaman 21:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer #1:   --Dubhagan 02:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: (Had to shift comment again so as not to lose contexts) As you can see, not exactly a full and balanced discussion of this important topic that arrived at any conclusion or consensus, it was left, and archived, very open ended. So it seems a good idea to re-open now with some more editors around to discuss it? --Zeraeph 05:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Part 2

message: Is there general agreement to whether Aspies benefit from befriend or dating or marrying another Aspie as opposed to a neurotypical person?  I see many blessings in Aspergers but personally have had more problematic social relationships with Aspies or near-Aspies than others; I do not like being reminded of the disorder's problems or talking about related issues with them too much.  One person would not stop badgering me about not conforming enough in his mind and the other admired me and looked to learn from me a bit too intensely and annoyingly.  Obviously in general non-Aspies are more at ease communicating, but I of course would expect Aspies can connect better with people they have much in common with, like Aspies.  I imagine Aspies can ease into dating more with another Aspie, but I don't know the effect on the success of the relationship.  But problems may remain at the relationship's stability and productivity.  Is my question more philsophical than legitimate?  My guess is it's a matter of personal preference, but anything else?  Minutiaman 04:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Think it is a BIG mistake to think of Aspies as a kind of "counter culture" or "subspecies" who relate best to each other, share a common language etc. Aspies relate and can identify with each other's DIFFICULTIES better, and support each other through that, but, in their spare time, they are human beings with diverse and often vastly different belief systems, tastes, interests, personalities. I suspect that, just like anyone else, Aspies benefit from befriending those people they most like and share common interests with an marrying people they love, who love them back, whoever they may be. --Zeraeph 08:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: From what I understand, Aspie or not, it really depends on the individual.  --Dubhagan 18:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Big mistake to underestemate our POWER!!! Eh, I think that we are better humans than the 'normal' ones. We could rule the world, but it dosnt work that way. Oh yes... I would prefer to have a girlfriend that also has Aspergers, but I dont mind if she has it or not.--Eiyuu Kou 19:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What utter rubbish.  As an AS "patient", I find this whole "Aspie" "ND pride" stuff utter nonsense.  It's yet another pointless exercise in labelling that ignores who people actually are.  People with AS vary as much as people without.  We're just wired slightly differently.  I'd have absolutely no problem dating a non-AS person, although some aren't tolerant of the condition, and I'd do so much more willingly than with someone like Eiyuu Kou, or anyone with AS spouting such separatist/supremacist nonsense.  Yes we have problems with relationships that people without AS don't have, but that doesn't mean that we're any more drawn to each other.--Graius 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the utter rubbish is all on Graous and Zeraeph. The lesser problems are not related to shared "difficulties", but to shared preferences and communication style. --Rdos 14:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aspie-Aspie social and sexual relationships 

message: This article, especially to be featured, should expand on attitude and treatment and include accomodations beyond the autistic rights movement; I felt like the movement's lobbyists or sympathizers get their hands on the article, given its imbalance of the movement's philosophy versus reasonable accomdations. It needs a section before "Shift in View" that mentions things like self-improvement, assimilation, and accomodatins as things Aspies should undergo or have. For example, what about Individualzied Education Programs, testing accomodations (I have one for my brain's slower processing of some information and possibly my natural? tendency to answer beyond merely satisfying the questions), more on therapy (the article delegates too many of the details of some things to concentrated autism articles, but AS's differences I think warrant more mention here; ideally one day AS will have its own concentrated Wikipedia articles - or does it already?), and job accomodations. I am pretty sure there is a debate as to whether people with Asperger's, certainly austism, qualify under the Americans with Disabilities Act or whatever else in the U.S. The article's exceptionally long talk pages reveal so many issues yet to be addressed, but again this is largely because there is not enough agreement over them; certainly the article has attracted dedicated editors. Minutiaman 01:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support expansion of the article in those areas, for the purpose of making the article more comprehensive – as long as information added is backed by reliable sources (not personal websites). Sandy 01:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Absolutely. I'm not much of a research-hound, myself, but so long as we add in reliable passages, additional good information is quite welcome. The sections in question are pretty bare-bones (read: need expanding), but should pass any criteria for FA status, however. --Keyne 13:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addressing Aspergers: Attitude, Treatment, and Accomodations 

message: I put cite tags on this, but nothing happened, so I'm copying it to here to see if anything can be done with this text:
The original anon editor inserted:
:Also worth noting, is the gender-specific diagnostic trends some clinicians and researchers are prone to practicing, such as depression being more commonly diagnosed in females, where as, anti-social personality disorder is more stereotypically defined as a male-dominated personality disorder of the Cluster B type.  
:Any scientist would tell you that causation does not equal a correlation, therefore, it would be extreme to conclude that no men suffer from depression. Conversely, that no women meet the criteria for anti-social personality disorder. 
:What's significant here is that the same could be said about the 10:1 ratio of boys versus girls being diagnosed with AS, and the disorder even being characterized as "extreme maleness." 
:Yet, where diagnosing female patients with AS is concerned, other comorbid disorders might include post-traumatic stress disorder, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, the spectrum of dissociative disorders, and borderline personality disorder which has been gaining in popularity recently. 
I attempted to re-word it to a form that could be referenced:
:Gender-specific diagnostic trends result in depression being more commonly diagnosed in females, and anti-social personality disorder more stereotypically defined as a male-dominated dramatic-erratic personality disorder of the Cluster B type.  Since causation does not equal  correlation, it would be extreme to conclude that no men suffer from depression or conversely, that no women meet the criteria for anti-social personality disorder.  The same could be said about the 10:1 ratio of boys versus girls being diagnosed with AS, and the disorder even being characterized as "extreme maleness."
:Yet, where diagnosing female patients with AS is concerned, other comorbid disorders might include post-traumatic stress disorder, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, the spectrum of dissociative disorders, and borderline personality disorder which has been gaining in popularity recently.
Maybe something can be referenced and used.  Sandy 21:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Under the 'comorbities' section, someone has added this: Schizophrenia is also linked, but not comorbid, with AS.[75][verification needed]. The source given does not support the claim in any way. In other words, this is totally irrelevant *and* unsupported. I'm therefore removing it. Again. Garrick92 12:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Schizophrenia is neither linked, nor comorbid. The presence of schizophrenia excludes the diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome, cf. the DSM-IV criterion F, which states "Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder, or Schizophrenia". Any edit to that effect is meaningless; as AS is a diagnosis, not currently based in a specific etiology, the information presented must not conflict with the criterion for said diagnosis, as set forth in DSM-IV and ICD-10. Zuiram 09:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreferenced text from Comorbidities 

message: The prevalence of AS is not well established, but conservative estimates using the DSM-IV criteria indicate that two to three of every 10,000 children have the condition, making it more rare than autistic disorder itself.
While I do not doubt the fact that this is indeed what conservative estimates indicate, I think that the conclusion that AS is "more rare than autistic disorder itself" is entirely erroneous. The fact that it is rarely diagnosed does not make it more rare.
Indeed, commonsense would indicate otherwise.
If we accept autism as a spectrum disorder, then the spectrum goes from the least autistic to the most autistic. 
*Those people who are only a little autistic are regarded as a "little odd sometimes" and escape diagnosis.  
*Those people who are a little more autistic and keep to themselves, study hard, get good grades and become accademics or computer programmers or research assistants escape diagnosis. 
*Those people who are a little more anti-social and have loud conversations about eletrical insulators with people in the street, sing too loudly in church, forget to use deoderant and take out their dentures on the public bus are regarded as real jerks but generally escape diagnosis. 
*A nine-year old who listens to "Question time" on the parliamentary broadcasts, ALWAYS carries an umbrella (in Sydney?!), begins every second sentence with "Excuse me, but I think you'll find that you're mistaken..." and cannot pass an automatic cash machine without screaming "Autobank! Autobank! Autobank! Autobank!"...... is not diagnosed as having AS. The diagnosis is "He has a tendency to internalise things! It's the result of being in a single-parent family! 
*A kid only gets a diagnosis of AS when it has banged its head black and blue, alienated its fourth class teacher and been set upon on the school bus every afternoon for a year.
If a child is seriously disruptive in class, then maybe you get the diagnosis, the funding, the teacher's aide, the special program. But not unless.
It is my opinion that that perhaps half my family is on the autistic spectrum. One of us has been diagnosed and has had some appropriate help at school. The rest of us just make the best of things, often coping with depression, social rejection and so on.
The point that I am trying to make here is that there are thousands of people out there who are undiagnosed Aspies.
Now that I know what I know, I look around at the people that I meet and I understand their personal condition so much better. That man who is so crazy about trains, that totally excessive marine biologist, that odd person who analyses tombstone inscriptions, that other person who has twenty photograph albums full of pictures of high-voltage transmission towers, that man who obsessivley collects valves from old radios. All these people are regarded by others as odd, weird, eccentric and so on. They are all adult. None of them has a diagnosis of Apergers, but several are regularly treated for depression.
It must be obvious to anyone who thinks about it, that a mild to medium form of autism is going to bbe far mmore prevalent than the full-on, withdrawn, non-communicative, socially-crippling disorder. The difference is that full-on Autism is comparatively easy to diagnose.
And doctors, until very recently have said "Oh, no, Mother! Your child doesn't have autism! Autism is a SERIOUS condition! You can't have mild autism. There is no such thing!"
Then there are the loving parents of the kid who never shuts up, never sits still, flaps continually, and does an almost non-stop impersonation of Stephen Hawking. They say "There's NOTHING wrong with our little Johnnie." 
But kids with Aspergers are very good at recognising other Aspies. You can't tell them that Johnnie hasn't got AS because they know he has. 
I overheard the following interraction in a cafe. 
 
Girl, at 120 decibles to a total stranger "That's beer you're drinking! It says beer on the label! Kids aren't allowed to drink beer! Why are you drinking beer?" 
Boy, at 120 decibels "Ha! Ha! I know what's the matter with you! You've got Asparagus Syndrome! That's what's the matter with you! Ha! Ha!" 
Girl at 200 decibles "Mum! How can that boy be so dumb? He said it's Asparagus Sydrome!" 
Boy at 200 decibles "Mum! How come that girl with Asparagus Syndrome says my ginger beer is beer?"
--Amandajm 11:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to review the published medical literature to see if there are updated prevalance estimates, and adjust the text according to reliable sources.  A good place to start would be Google scholar and PubMed's search engine.  Sandy 12:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: At the rate it is diagnosed, it is more rare than autistic disorder. The phenotype might not be more rare, because AS is probably missed more often, but the article refers to diagnosed cases. This was even true in the latest study by Fombonne out of Canada. He found a prevalence of 20 in 10,000 for autistic disorder and 10 in 10,000 for AS, if I recall correctly. There are probably cultural shifts in the boundaries between the sub-conditions as time goes by. In any case, it is notable that AS is more rare than autistic disoder, because people would generally assume the opposite is the case. Neurodivergent 15:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epidemiology 

message: User:64.236.128.14, can you please explain why you keep adding an external link to a website that has its own entry, and is already mentioned in See also ? Thanks, Sandy 23:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: See also and External links

message: === Glenn Gould? ===
Glenn Gould is suspected to have had Asperger Syndrome. Should we add his name to the section that says "Some AS researchers speculate that well-known figures, including..."? --DearPrudence 19:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but only with a reference.  --James Duggan 19:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, added. --DearPrudence 01:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Rowan Atkinson should not be identified as having Asperger's unless there's substantial proof, per WP:LIVING. Let's avoid the temptation to assume someone has AS just because they're weird. szyslak (t, c, e) 22:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Right, but given what "experts" would say, would any (or have any) ever suggested that he might be AS? Personally, the thought never crossed my mind, and I was kind of surprised at the idea. To me, what he describes wouldn't really be sufficient if that's all he has. And who knows what the diagnosis was like when he was 12 - the world of ASD diagnosis was quite different back then... -- Tim 12:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The math is definately weird, though it wouldn't be uncommon for someone of that timeframe to be labeled schizophrenic or autistic in AS' place.  However, it's still very sketchy.  The only thing he mentioned (fascination) isn't so much an AS thing as it is an OCD-esque thing (which I'm aware is quite comorbid w/AS).  That said, I don't put much faith in what was said insofar as AS goes; Tourettes?  Possible/probable.  But then, that's just my opinion, and that is definately OR.  It's still very fishy, and I'm not sure if we should include something that isn't a tad more iron-clad.  --Keyne 13:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I went ahead and removed him from the list. It really looks like the evidence isn't compelling enough to justify him being there. -- Tim 14:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Cases 

message: Glenn Gould is suspected to have had Asperger Syndrome. Should we add his name to the section that says "Some AS researchers speculate that well-known figures, including..."? --DearPrudence 19:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but only with a reference.  --James Duggan 19:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, added. --DearPrudence 01:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glenn Gould? 

message: I recently noticed an online discussion in regards to the possibility that the comedian and actor Rowan Atkinson may have AS. After reading it, I think it might actually be the case. I'm uncertain if, and in what way, it should be included in the article, but I did want to alert you to it for possible inclusion.--24.47.147.176 03:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rowan Atkinson should not be identified as having Asperger's unless there's substantial proof, per WP:LIVING. Let's avoid the temptation to assume someone has AS just because they're weird. szyslak (t, c, e) 22:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rowan Atkinson? 

message: I noticed today that someone listed Dan Aykroyd as a notable case. From my understanding, this information came from a single interview where he stated that he is AS because of his fascination with law enforcement. Is this the only thing he's got going for him? Is there any other info out there? -- Tim 16:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, but given what "experts" would say, would any (or have any) ever suggested that he might be AS? Personally, the thought never crossed my mind, and I was kind of surprised at the idea. To me, what he describes wouldn't really be sufficient if that's all he has. And who knows what the diagnosis was like when he was 12 - the world of ASD diagnosis was quite different back then... -- Tim 12:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The math is definately weird, though it wouldn't be uncommon for someone of that timeframe to be labeled schizophrenic or autistic in AS' place.  However, it's still very sketchy.  The only thing he mentioned (fascination) isn't so much an AS thing as it is an OCD-esque thing (which I'm aware is quite comorbid w/AS).  That said, I don't put much faith in what was said insofar as AS goes; Tourettes?  Possible/probable.  But then, that's just my opinion, and that is definately OR.  It's still very fishy, and I'm not sure if we should include something that isn't a tad more iron-clad.  --Keyne 13:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I went ahead and removed him from the list. It really looks like the evidence isn't compelling enough to justify him being there. -- Tim 14:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dan Aykroyd? 

message: If anyone posted modifications in the last few minutes, I think I may have accidentally removed them. I had the entire article open for editing, and hit submit, and it seemed to stall, so a few minutes later I hit submit again. Any modifications in that time period are probably gone, so you might want to check.
:Looking at the page history I believe you're safe, no one else appeared to have edited at the same time.  --James Duggan 06:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whoops 

message: I think I will use parts of the causes section in my future article. After all, I've researched lots of the links there. I need a background on the state-of-the-art of autism causes research. Just to let you know :-) --Rdos 11:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The state of the art in autism causation is this: "We have no freaking idea". Actually, a cultural construct resulting from various forms of neurodiversity is most likely to account for what is termed "autism" IMHO. Neurodivergent 15:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it would offend editors to much to proclaim that "we (other professionals) have no freaking idea"? Yes, neurodiversity is a good term, but it's origin must still be explained. --Rdos 17:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: There is some work being done on the work being done on the causes, which is in some ways more interesting than the work on the causes itself. Essentially, some researchers have indicated that an incorrect (or, at least, non-orthogonal) classification complicates research with regards to causes. Grouping AS, Autism and AD[H]D together as a single condition with two comorbidities: one leading to autistic features, the other leading to hyperactivity, with the rest of the differences being attributed to personality differences that would be variant-normal within the new condition. If you are doing work on the causes underlying these conditions, you might want to review this material Zuiram 09:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My work will group Autism, Asperger's, Tourette, OCD, ODD, Prosapagnosia, Bipolar, Schizophrenia, ADD/ADHD, Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, Dysgraphia and probably some more conditions under a single category, with differences in personality being responsible for all the other variation (for instance, ADD/ADHD - AS is on the extrovert-introvert axis). Other things like learning disabilities / intense focusing are on the ability-disability axis. Yet other axis include differences in non-verbal communications, which is the key in Tourette and ASDs. --Rdos 14:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using causes section in a peer-reviewed article 

message: It is more frequently referred to as Asperger's Syndrome. Ideas? Perl 12:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Has something changed since this was last discussed?  --Keyne 12:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of COURSE something has changed, new people have raised the issue is what. Actually the article should rightly be called the same thing as the condition, which is, correctly and grammatically "Asperger's Syndrome", the only argument against it is the cumbersome scripting syntax that would inevitably occur in the page URL. --Zeraeph 18:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a technical problem per se, just an awkwardness with the URL as the inverted comma has to be coded. --Zeraeph 21:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know, I always thought it was more frequently referred to without the apostraphe - but whatever - it is a minor point. Just make sure the person who moves it does it properly, because when I last did it it was a pain and took a while. RN 18:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: In Norway, at least, it is referred to as "Asperger's Syndrome", but sometimes shortened to "Asperger" or "Asperger's". I think the form with the apostrophe would be the most correct and appropriate. Zuiram 09:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asperger's Syndrome 

message: Some anon put the cleanup tag on this article.  Considering that this article recently passed an FA review, without any major changes to the article since, I reverted, as there was no reason given for adding that tag, nor is there any obvious reason.  --James Duggan 15:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks safe enough to me. Like you say, it is a featured article, the last edit to this talk page before yours was saying that it is still included in Version 0.5. This article, as far as I am concerned, really is one of the best on Wikipedia. Cleanup really isn't necessary. --Dreaded Walrus 16:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup? 

message: I don't know how to pronounce Asperger's...hard 'g' or soft 'g'?  Where's the stress?  If someone knows the correct answer for a fact (perhaps with evidence from the etymology?) could they add a pronunciation guide to the article, like there is for a lot of other articles on less-common words?
:Hans Asperger was German, so it's probably a hard 'g'.  --James Duggan 18:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation? 

message: :Strip-lighting, and computer monitors at low refresh rates (either of which may often be encountered in schools) can be very disturbing visual stimuli for AS people, contributing to otherwise inexplicable headaches, bad moods and agitation.
I left this snippet in the article for a while, but it still hasn't been sourced so I moved it here for discussion.  Would anyone happen to have any kind of source for it (or similar)?  --Keyne 12:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't think of any sources off the top of my head, but that may just be down to my monitor having a low refresh rate. ;)--Dreaded Walrus 12:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other differences - Sourcing a snippet 

message: I have asperger's syndrome and thanks to your article I am made fun of in school now with people calling me autistic psyycho. Why couldn't you rephrase it better and explain the terms properly. Aspergers are not "psycho". You could have tried to be more sensitive. 194.83.157.3 14:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true, there is nothing "psycho" about it. Sorry about your classmates being insensitive and mean about it, but that's the term that was used back when Dr. Asperger first came up with it. It really has to be in the article because it's a part of the history. Nobody says "autistic psychopathy" anymore, though. In psychology terms way back then, "psychopathy" didn't mean "psycho" like people use it today. It was just another way of saying that something weird was going on in the brain. But since some people are misunderstanding it, let's see if we can clear the terminology up a little bit. -- Tim D 15:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually some aspies do hace similarities with psychopaths (not that the two are in anyway relatd). For example I have never felt what most NT's would refer to as guilt. Symmetric Chaos 12:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose this is unfounded (hence it's just here as a comment), but something I've noticed is that some of us apparently don't know what emotions are, specifically. I'm sure they (and you) still feel them, but it's difficult for some to identify what the actual process is and associate that process with a word like "guilt" or "happiness". -ADoS —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.64.235 (talk) 04:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I know that I have no concept of the idea of beauty (partly because my facial recognition skills are sub-par) but the suggestion that Aspergers people cannot feel emotions is incorrect. Aspergers people can be very affectionate, because we don't really think about another person having a negative reaction before we, eg, hug them in public. That's lack of empathy for you. THAT'S where Aspergers people traditionally fall down, not in the emotional department. 86.17.163.37 00:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Autistic Psychopathy

message: This article has been copied to http://www.digital-dust.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=38 , Is this an appropiate use for this content?
:Well, they credit Wikipedia, but they need to have a link to the history and explictily say that the text is available under the GFDL. Hbdragon88 00:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copying of This article

message: I can't remember: was this article supposed to be cast in British English, or American English?  I'm seeing many edits that seem to mesh the two together, and the article would benefit from one or the other tense.  --Keyne 13:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been American spelling up until now as far as I've seen. I made adjustments to a recent British addition, but I may have missed a couple spots. -- Tim D 13:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes. If you (for example) are able "get on with someone", you are able to be friendly with them. I don't know if the phrase is not used in the US or elsewhere, but I know that the former is probably more used over here than the latter, at least in my part of the country.--Dreaded Walrus 11:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Context: English

message: i'm trying to find a group of AS people on a myspace group, i just have hard time finding the group. i know it exists it's just hard.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.143.134.102 (talk) 
: Here's a start -- Tim D 00:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myspace group 

message: Over on a third culture kids talk page a discussion has arisen that relates to Asperger Syndrome.  Somebody made an uncited reference that people who have Asperger Syndrome are also known as Third Culture Kids.  Before we deleted this, I wanted to check with you guys to see if this was a known use?  If this is something you've heard or can validate, could you respond on Talk:Third Culture Kids ThanksBalloonman 20:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Third Culture Kids]]

message: Can someone please rephrase that section because its tone of writing will insult people on wikipedia who has AS. Stuff like. regarded by teachers as a "problem child" or "poor performer" or such as a teacher may well consider the child arrogant, spiteful, and subordinate. That really insults people because I have a close friend that actually has AS, and he has been complaining that wikipedia is insulting his disablity because of that section--Jimmysal 03:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Echoing agreement with the below:  Pointing out teacher's perceptions (and other authority figures, however misguided they may be) is a rather essential point regarding AS' realities.  It isn't intended to be insulting, but more often than not, such examples are the norm (regardless of the AS' individual's intentions).  Explanation within the article as such goes to show that said examples aren't accurate, and such disclosure if very important and relevant.  To that end, it is both useful and needed within the context of the article.  --Keyne 18:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I can take a look at the section. Pointing out teachers' perceptions (however inaccurate) is important, but the language in doing that can be a little touchy. Looking at it briefly, it seems like the section can use some work in general. -- Tim D 04:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always felt the whole Non-clinical Perspective section could use some expansion, but I just couldn't find anything to help me do that.  I see we have several new editors dedicating themselves to this article since the FA review back in July.  Fresh perspectives are always good.  --James Duggan 04:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have of late actually added quite a lot to the Social Impact section myself.  I added it in the knowledge that it can be reality for people with AS, and that the opinions people may have of people with AS are reality.  I have AS myself, and if anything I added it to raise awareness of the reality of how hard life can be for an Aspie.  Feel free to tweak some of the working, and if it helps I'm going to add a preamble basically to say not all the possibilities in the Social Impact section will happen for ALL Aspies. 
Another couple of suggestions while I think about it:
* I think perhaps Social Impact for people with Asperger Syndrome deserves its own page (in turn the section in the main Asperger article could be shortened).  This is because I feel strongly about the awareness side of things.
* Whether it gets its own page or not, more about positive social impacts, as Asperger's is not just a disabling condition.  It's also enbaling in many ways.
Keeno 14:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, back in July a split was proposed, but it was decided it was best to keep it in one article.  You can view the discussion at Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive07#Splitting the article.  If you feel you have something new to add to that discussion, feel free to continue it in this thread.  --James Duggan 04:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: To be honest, as defined, AS is technically all about social impacts (to simplify: defecits--yes, I know it's much more than that), so I would chime in that any such inclusions should probably work into this article, rather than split the article into less sensical subsections (of itself).  --Keyne 18:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rephrasing the Social Impact section 

message: The descrpition B.O. gives of his grandfather matches perfectly behavior of someone w/ AS. 136.165.88.39 15:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am curious to read that description. Could you provide a link to that, if you don't mind? Thank you.Bearpa 20:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barack Obama Grandfather had AS?

message: Does premature birth increase the likelihood that the child will later on display the symptoms of AS? Can preterm birth be a probable cause? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Waux J.V. Trident (talk •
: I don't think so. There might very well be a small correlation between premature birth and AS as well as with ADHD, but I doubt this have any causative effect. More likely the other way around. Premature birth is more often triggered by ASD-genes. In Aspie-quiz, both premature and "induced" seemed to be correlated with high Aspie-score. --Rdos 19:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, so it's vice versa? The ASD-genes increase the likelihood of premature birth? Or it's not all that simple at all? - Waux J.V. Trident 16:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Probable Causes? 

message: Recent changes create the impression using a small number of references that the existance of the condition known as AS is a matter of serious debate in the mental health community. Dr. Szatmari is a well known expert in the feild but he does not speak for the field. Among mental health professionals there is little doubt the condition exists. The question is whether it should be considered a disorder or lauded as neurodiversity. Of course the same is said of all autistic spectrum disorders and even of autism itself. Dr. Szatmari himself it might be added DOES believe the condition exists and has in fact prodcued a screening criteria. — Falerin<talk>,<contrib> 12:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problematic Sections 

message: A first comment from a wikinovice. Helpful comments appreciated.
Is the heading "autistic culture" generally accepted to be less rigorous than science based resources? Is there research behind the Wired article "The Geek Syndrome" The Geek Syndrome? I have looked and not found any cited and little mentioned. Also, the article contains the cited information only in the article's subtitle, which I see as simply a journalistic hook conjectured just to get the reader to read further.
I mean, this might be OK if cultural references are the only criteria for verifiability here. But a further read of the article makes no further claim nor any argument for or against the claim of this lead-in subtitle. The article is quite decent as a short expository of the newly emerging awareness of AS but doesn't reach the level, to me, of verifiable with regard to the information paraphrased into the wiki article.Bearpa 20:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wired article in "autistic culture" heading 

message: If anybody wants help from somebody who has experience with this, I have it.--Merry Christmas! CJ King 20:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few helpful comments 

message: This page states that "antisocial" tendencies are a core feature. Now, it may be a language barrier issue, though that doesn't explain why antisocial redirects to antisocial personality disorder, but APD "light" is what I read the word antisocial as meaning, which is very definitely not a core feature according to the people I've talked to, and I would remove it as vandalism if the rest of the article wasn't so uninsightful about the condition. 8 years living with one, meeting several, talking to the leading expert on it in my country (20+ years of research) and experiences from support groups does not support the meaning you get by internally linking the words.
Could someone please add an inline source to that statement if this actually means what I think it does, or clarify it if it means something else? Zuiram 23:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antisocial? 

message: I agree that the condition itself is not life-threatening, but the suicide rates are above baseline, ranging from 20% to 60% depending on the source and the timespan of the study. The 20% figure was from a childhood-to-adulthood study, while the 60% figure was a lifetime prevalence estimate (ISTR the CDC was the source). Does anyone have some good sources we could cite here to clarify? Zuiram 23:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I'm sure Zuiram can and will give a better accounting for these stats. This is something I know I saw mentioned in some of the guidelines --statistics. I'm of course not certain, but the references are probably to the rate of increase from the baseline. In other words (and this, you'll see, is why we should all use caution and diligence when using statistical derivations), if the rate of suicide is 5 per 1000, then a 20% increase translates to 6 per 1000 (5+20% of itself, the rate, or 5+1=6). Likewise, a 60% lifetime rate increase if the lifetime rate is, say 20 per 1000, would be 32 per 1000, that is, 20+(60% of 20), which is 20+12=32. Statistics can confuse. They can confuse unwittingly by their undisciplined use, but far worse is the confusion caused by those who wish to deceive. The hard part is figuring out the difference before damage is done. I'm sure this was not the intention here: in fact the author may not have understood the difference, or, more likely, that others would misunderstand the distinction.Bearpa 22:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not life-threatening? 

message: Do you have any references to the numbers you were just quoting- they seem inordinately high!  I have no problem believing that Aspies have higher suicide rates but those rates are astronomical!  I and my son both have AS and neither of us is going off the deep end very soon... :-)   Alex Jackl 07:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I'm sure Zuiram can and will give a better accounting for these stats. This is something I know I saw mentioned in some of the guidelines --statistics. I'm of course not certain, but the references are probably to the rate of increase from the baseline. In other words (and this, you'll see, is why we should all use caution and diligence when using statistical derivations), if the rate of suicide is 5 per 1000, then a 20% increase translates to 6 per 1000 (5+20% of itself, the rate, or 5+1=6). Likewise, a 60% lifetime rate increase if the lifetime rate is, say 20 per 1000, would be 32 per 1000, that is, 20+(60% of 20), which is 20+12=32. Statistics can confuse. They can confuse unwittingly by their undisciplined use, but far worse is the confusion caused by those who wish to deceive. The hard part is figuring out the difference before damage is done. I'm sure this was not the intention here: in fact the author may not have understood the difference, or, more likely, that others would misunderstand the distinction.Bearpa 22:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matter of opinion