Talk:Pomerelia

message: :The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Eastern Pomerania → Pomerelia
Pomerelia is the correct name for the territory per WP:NC(GN) proposals.  In English, eastern Pomerania is not always the same as Pomerelia, the subject of this article.  The term “eastern Pomerania” is a descriptive that is better served by using the actual name of the territory, Pomerelia.  (C.f. Pomesania) This was the named used by the Duchy of Pomerelia as seen in online references below.  The term “eastern Pomerania” is ambiguous and can refer to the eastern part of the Duchy of Pomerania (i.e., Farther Pomerania) whereas Pomerelia refers to the area of subject in this article as seen in these maps (from Muir):
:Pomerelia is marked as such on the following maps:
* Periodical Historical Atlas
* Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd
* Muir’s Historical Atlas: Medieval and Modern. Tenth edition. 1964.
:Pomerelia is noted in the following:
* History Channel UK Encyclopedia – Prussia
* Columbia Encyclopedia – Pomerania
* Regnal Chronologies – Poland and the Baltics
* World Statesmen – Poland
In addition to online sources, a search of print materials on academic search engines such as JSTOR or ABC-Clio Historical Abstracts shows “eastern Pomerania” usually used as a descriptive (with a lower case “e”) while Pomerelia is used on several occasions to describe both the duchy and the region and is the term used in the translation of Polish and German article titles (ABC-Clio).  In many cases “eastern Pomerania” does not refer to Pomerelia but to the eastern part of the Duchy of Pomerania.  Google Books searches (groan!) of Eastern Pomerania and Pomerelia reveal similar results.
As the Columbia Encyclopedia article on Pomerania notes, Pomerania “was split into two principalities. Pomerelia, as E Pomerania came to be known, became independent in 1227, was annexed to Poland in 1294, and was taken in 1308-9 by the Teutonic Knights , who incorporated it into their domain in East Prussia. The histories of Pomerania and Pomerelia after 1308 must be traced separately.”
-  AjaxSmack   18:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
=== Move completed - dab needed? ===
Per the comment in the Discussion section above, Eastern Pomerania should probably be a dab page now.  Perhaps someone more knowledgable than I could go ahead and do that?  I've taken care of the deletion and move, which is the only part that required admin tools. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Done. -  AjaxSmack   07:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support as nominee. -  AjaxSmack   18:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Per the comment in the Discussion section above, Eastern Pomerania should probably be a dab page now.  Perhaps someone more knowledgable than I could go ahead and do that?  I've taken care of the deletion and move, which is the only part that required admin tools. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. -  AjaxSmack   07:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move completed - dab needed? 

message: Actually, these are two different things, confused now in a single article: Gdańsk Pomerania is a contemporary geographical region of Poland, while Pomeralia is a historical region. The recent rename only signifies this confusion. --Lysytalk 22:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do they have any other significant difference than the time?  If they are approximately the same area, and the population basis has not significantly changed in a radical change, they should presumably be the one and same article. After all, all sorts of provonces have articles with their "history" section there. Even Greece is one article, having a today country and its history 2500 years ago. Shilkanni 01:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pomerelia is a distinct historical region and duchy, while Gdańsk Pomerania is a more recent term for a larger area encompassing Pomerelia, Culmerland, Pomesania, etc. Olessi 17:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gdańsk Pomerania and Pomeralia 

message: Re : This change of the section title to include the term "duchy" for the 11th-/12th-century independent Pomerelian entities is inadequate. Loew PO: Danzig. Biographie einer Stadt, Munich 2011, p. 32: 
:"Sambor [...] styled himself 'princeps Pomoranorum,' [...], but not 'dux,' which was the privilege of the Piasts." p. 33: "After Sambor's death [...] his brother Mestwin [...] strove after gaining ever greater independence from Poland. He confidently styled himself 'princeps in Danzk' and expanded southwards. His oldest son Swantopolk (Swietopelk), ruling from 1217 onwards, exploited Poland's fragmentation to acquire independence for his realm; already since 1227 he styled himself 'dux,' 'Duke of Pomerelia.'" 
Thus, "duchy" can not refer to the period prior to 1227. "Principality" would be a proper term refering to Sambor's and Mestwin I's realms, but probably not for the time before, which means that the proper section title is something like "Independent entities and Piast Polish province." Skäpperöd (talk) 12:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is that the term "princeps" or the Polish "ksiaze" has several translations in English - it can mean "prince", "duke" or, as here, "regent" or "castellan". Basically it's roughly equivalent to the English "lord". The difficulty is that most sources refer to these guys as "Dukes" (even though they were not allowed to hold the title "dux") and their realms as "duchies". Volunteer Marek  16:39, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duchy 

message: Why was the "semi-" introduced? When Pomerelia was not a Piast province, it was independent, not semi-independent. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Because that period covers both instances when the area was under strong Piast control and temporary periods when those ties were loosened. Officially through out these centuries, it was controlled by Poland, and this is described as such in sources. It was not an "independent duchy" for most of this period. Volunteer Marek  16:43, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

text: Btw, I believe that the contention that Boleslaw the Generous lost control in 1060's has also been challenged more recently - direct control was not lost until the end of the 11th century and re-established soon after by Boleslaw the Wrymouth. Basically the whole title in your version is POV. Volunteer Marek  16:50, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "Semi-" independent in 11th/12th centuries

message: Hello. I propose to merge this article and Gdańsk Pomerania, into one article under the name "Pomerelia" since both articles are about the same region (they even mention the same names in), just under 2 different article names.Artemis Andromeda (talk) 10:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Support. Unless I donn understand something, it is weird how the two articles developed independently for  15 years. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:09, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: plwiki says that "Pomorze Wschodnie" corresponds to the German term "Pommerellen", favoring the merge. Lembit Staan (talk)
BTW I see territorial mismatches there. Please see the description of the territories:
*From Pomerelia: Pomerelia is traditionally divided into Kashubia, Kociewie, Tuchola Forest and Chełmno Land, with southern part located in the Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship and small parts in West Pomeranian Voivodeship. The region has been inhabited by ethnic Kashubians, Kociewians, Borowians and Chełminians, respectively.
*:pl:Pomorze Gdańskie: w przybliżeniu obejmująca swym obszarem szeroki pas na zachód od dolnej Wisły, tj. centralną i większość zachodniej części województwa pomorskiego, północno-zachodnią część województwa kujawsko-pomorskiegoWedług Wielkiej Encyklopedii Powszechnej PWN, t. 9, Warszawa 1967, s. 267, Pomorze Gdańskie to obszar „na zachód od Wisły”. oraz skrawek we wschodniej części województwa zachodniopomorskiego. Od wschodu Pomorze Gdańskie sąsiaduje z Pomezanią/Powiślem, od południa z Wielkopolską (Krajna), Kujawami i ziemią chełmińską, a od zachodu z Pomorzem Zachodnim.
*From Gdańsk Pomerania: ""Pomerania" in the name of the Pomeranian Voivodeship and "Prussia" in the name of the province of Royal Prussia, which, however, also included other voivodeships with the historical areas of Chełmno Land, Michałów Land, Pomesania and Pogesania."  -- i.e., this text appears to exclude Chełmno Land from Pomerelia.
I hope the merge will be carried out in a non-mechanical, "smart"  way, resolving possible disagreements using reliable sources.  Lembit Staan (talk) 17:25, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: Redirects to "Pomeranian culture" as a synonym.  But the latter article says "The Pomeranian culture developed in Western Pomerania". How to resolve this apparent disagreement? Lembit Staan (talk) 17:08, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Pomerelian Face Urn culture]] 

message: Yet another fanatical Polish propaganda page with hopelessly twisted facts. The crucial thing is Polish-language sources should be excluded from the English-language Facebook, obviously. There are plenty of English-language sources available on this province. 2A00:23C4:B617:7D01:10C1:A3F8:39BB:A773 (talk) 13:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please highlight and list the "propaganda" content. Merangs (talk) 22:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Propaganda