Talk:Byzantine Empire/Archive 3

message: I think it's lovely that you contributed sections on minorities to the main article on the Ottoman Empire. What I can't understand is why you removed the references to the same from the main article on the Byzantine Empire. My contribution was not, in my admittedly prejudiced opinion, poorly written. It merely held closely to the text of the sources to avoid the inevitable accusation of mis-reading; hardly worth the effort, since the accusation was raised in any case. But again, I would like at least to see the section that existed before my contribution returned to the main article (Ahrweiler's formulation from "The Europeans" + the "Sun King"). Is that agreeable? --Javits2000 15:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved it because we had already agreed to remove that section of the article and not to expand it with irrelevant information within quotes. I removed later one paragraph on cultural minorities for the same reason that I would remove similar information from an article (or section) dealing with "Ottoman identity" aka "Ottomans" aka "Ottoman Turks". But you can restore it, within context, in Byzantine Empire or a separate article anytime you want. I don't know how many more times I'll have to explain that. Miskin 16:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks for your kind leave. Not to sound peckish, but you'll understand if I'm reluctant to have another go at present. The good faith gesture would be -- well, but if you have to name it, it's not good faith anymore, is it? --Javits2000 19:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am glad the question of Byzantine identity has been hotly debate. The arguments presented reinforced my idea that Empire was not Greek but multi-ethnic. I lament the offensive tonne some of you use. Let's keep the debate on ideas base not personal offences.
tupinambah 21:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Byzantines

message: I thought I'd best remind everyone that the maps of this article are being improved and replaced, according to the agreement that was made beween Flamarande, Varana, Dryzen, Geuiwogbil and myself on this talk page with regard to maps some time ago. Today I aim to have all my big Byzantine Empire maps replaced with newer versions which include the cities of Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch. At the time of writing, I have added 3 new improved maps already, and will shortly be adding 2 more as I complete them. 
If you have any ideas or questions about the maps of this article, or would like to make a request for a new map, feel free to ask here.  Bigdaddy1204 16:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Choosing between the two maps above I would choose BigDaddy's map; 1st) it has the cities (major point), 2nd) the name of the seas are written down (Black S. and Medi S.). But to be truly honest, I think that an inclusion of the WRE is also worthy. BUT DON'T improve your map yet, depending upon the colour issue below and the results. If the majority agrees with purple, then you (and anyone else who is willling and knows how to do it) may have to change the maps (from pink to purple). But hey, if this is too much work we can keep pink (I like purple better, but then I am not doing the work here as I don't know how to improve maps :). Flamarande 18:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Well I sugested that change :), but my reasons are sound: Ravenna simply lost its importance around 850 AD and Venice slowly gained in importance and power until becoming a regional power of major importance. Flamarande 16:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ongoing changes to Byzantine Empire maps + change from pink to (Imperial) purple

message: As part of WikiProject Former countries, we have developed Template:Infobox Former Country for use by all former entities: for anything from empires to colonies. I have made a Byzantine version of the infobox based on what you have done here. The infobox also automatically assigns the page to a number of categories. For further information about the infobox, please see the Instructions.
If you have any questions or comments about the infobox (it is still in development so some features are a little sensitive), please ask. Since you have made a dedicated infobox for this article, I decided to set up a draft infobox rather than just replace what you have done - I'll leave that up to you. 
I see that there are other specific infobox templates for other Empires (Roman, West Roman, etc.). New infoboxes using the Former Country Infobox can also be made for these. - 52 Pickup 10:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed new infobox 

message: I couldn't help but notice the error in the timeline - "Death of Basil II - decline of Byzantine empire begins". This is not true. The Byzantine empire went on to conquer more lands in Armenia, in northern Mesopatamia (Edessa) and the empire did not decline until the crushing defeat at Manzikert. That was the decline. Although the Byzantines lost a great emperor, it was not the end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.227.129.254 (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so too. In fact, if i am not wrong, most historians and important figures (e.g. the late Pope) did/do consider 1204 the year after which the Byzantine Empire began to decline. The other dates that have been proposed at different periods, are marked by important events, but none of them was as important and had so deep in time and disastrous for the empire effects. Hectorian 21:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Granted Romanos did not lose the empire's status overnight. But it wasn't from the day Basil II died, because the empire made a few territorial acquisitions afterwards. On another note, there wasn't really a Palaiologi restoration -its a matter of one weak empire (Nicaea) overthrowing an even weaker one (Latin empire).  Tourskin 04:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistake at 1025, & was the restoration under the Palaiologi a 'dead cat bounce'? 

message: Legacy section of this article contains a major POV. Although the Byzantian Empire influenced the Ottoman Empire heavily, the article fails to mention that but it claims it influenced the "European civilisation", an influence I gather, not as well documented as the influence on the Ottomans. BTW, the term "European civilisation" seems to me a bit vague, see Culture of Europe Filanca 12:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This strikes me as an interesting point. In architecture, at least, the Ottomans, alongside the Tsars, could be seen as the most important successors of Byzantium. I'm less well versed in Ottoman administration and economy, but I recall that Hendy was able to reconstruct quite a bit of the Byzantine system by reading back through Ottoman records, which would seem to imply some significant continuity. As for Byzantium, "the only stable state in Europe during the Middle Ages": is that not both hyperbolic and geographically inaccurate? --Javits2000 15:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By 'successors' you must mean 'influenced cultures'. Byzantine art and culture were based on the Eastern Orthodox (later Greek Orthodox) faith and not on a political independence. In Greek Orthodox tradition, Byzantine art never fell out of use. Miskin 20:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, yes, the importance of late Byzantine scholars in transmitting Greek literature to Italy & beyond is indisputable, and a fascinating story. I have no problem with the idea of a significant Byzantine influence on European culture and society. The point is rather that there was also a significant influence on the Islamic world. There one could begin long before 1453 -- for example, with the Abbasid translation movement, which seems to have relied at least in part by texts acquired from the Byzantines. --Javits2000 18:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy section

message: right|400px
Having been underwhelmed by the level of interest in this topic earlier, the time has come for a different approach. 
Flamarande has proposed that the Byzantine Empire be changed from pink to purple (see image, right) in all the maps of this article. I invite you all to Support or Object to the proposal now, in the hope that some of you are willing to help us improve the article in a constructive way, instead of endlessly arguing over the 'names of the Byzantines' and other such things. 
Supporting and objecting
If you support Flamarande's proposal, write *Support followed by your reason(s). If you oppose the proposal, write *Object or *Oppose followed by the reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with ...) rather than removing it. Contributors should allow others the opportunity to do this themselves. To provide constructive input on the proposition without explicitly supporting or objecting, write *Comment followed by your advice. 
Once again, I beseech you, please take the time to vote. Without your comments, it is starting to feel like this page is dead... Bigdaddy1204 13:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I tend to agree with Future Perfect at Sunrise. It would be better to have the imperial colour for the empire in the map. I suppose the lighter one would be perfect. IMHO, the darker one would be ungly, compared to the yellow-like for non-byzantine territories, i mean it would immediately attract readers' attention, focusing on the Byzantine territories, instead of looking at the position of the Empire on the map. Hectorian 04:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Everywhere I look, I see the Byzantine Empire in purple. Maps inside of books, computer games (e.g. Rome Total War Barbarian Invasion), book-covers, etc. Even in this article; the main colour is purple (or am I somehow seeing things?). As far as I know that colour had strong Imperial conotations. Only the Emperor could clothe himself entirely in purple. Those who were born in the Purple chamber, etc. And somehow that colour became the colour of the BE. I think that any shade of purple is a better colour for the BE than the current ("My little Poney") pink. Flamarande 16:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Here's a rapid coloration testing using ArcGIS 9.1 software, the colour is 102,2,60 RGB or Imperial Purple with 35% transparentcy. I tried to mimic the backgroound colour but not knowing its RGB composition I got a rough equivalant. Considering I only digitized the Byzantine empire itself and anot the suround topogrpahy the hydrograhy is missing. It does though give us an idea of waht we can do depending on software. With a little trial and error work on the transparency I htink it will work out fine. Maybe a little work on the background coloration as well...--Dryzen 14:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The colour seems a bit diffrent (softer) from the samples above. But please, try putting a name inside your map. Will the name still be visible without difficulty? If it still is then your colour is fine by me, if not... Flamarande 01:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's one with the basic label option. The transparency is only placed on the Byzantine empire layer, therefore the names shouldn't be affected. This later fucntion is why the colour is softer than the base 102,2,60.  This was simply to show that with transparency implaced we can keep imperial purple and still have an auxialiary map that dosen't steal our attention or is harsh on the eyes. I dont have the time to redraw the maps, nor do I think it necessairy, Bigdaddy1204 and varana have a done great jobs. An other minus is that since this is geomatic software I'dd have to digitize or build from scratch every layer of information and have keep these topologicaly correct. --Dryzen 14:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote on Byzantine Empire Maps (please)

message: A few days ago I added the med. Arabic name ("Rum") for the empire to the intro paragraph, on the principle that if the Latin name is relevant, then so is the Arabic; Gk., Latin, and Arabic being the three major languages (politically and culturally) of the medieval Mediterranean. Since then there has been some toing-and-froing btw. various other editors as to whether this ought to be included. I think it better to discuss the subject here than to re-insert it again, which was my first impulse. On what grounds could the Latin name be relevant, and the Arabic name not? --Javits2000 11:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because Latin was an official language of the Empire and Arabic wasn't. However the Arabic name is interesting from the perspective of the discussion of the name of the Byzantine Empire so I have no problem with its inclusion. Roydosan 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's important for various reasons. Done. Miskin 23:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - Latin and Greek have to be there because they were the official languages of the empire. However, I do think it would add value to include the Arabic name, although in a separate field - perhaps a separate section of all names of the empire in different languages? It's interesting to note that "Rum" is also used by the Turks, and it is also the word the Turks use to identify modern Greeks. Biz 11:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I've had a look, though I couldn't really say I've read it. On amazon.com it's only 20$, but in the British museum's bookshop it was at 60 pounds. Miskin 00:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've recently ordered it and hope to delve within its knowledge in due time, as with all the other Byzantine ressource I've aquired of late. --Dryzen 18:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic name 

message: The Second Arab siege of Constantinople took place in 717–718. The Bulgar khan, Tervel, came to rescue and dealt a decesive blow to the Arabs. He is said to have slaughtered some 22,000 Arabs in that battle. I would like to pose a question: What is the significance of this battle? Many of the Greeks I have asked have never heard of it, whereas in Bulgarian history, this is recorded as a major event. Perhaps even more so, because of the Bulgaro-Byzantine alliance, which is a rare occurence in itself :))) Apparently Tervel and Iustinian II enjoyed a somewhat friendly relationship, at least to the point that politics allowed it. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tervel
It could be regarded as an underrated contribution, such as in the case of Poland and the Battle of Vienna. In case you're interested, there was another Greco-Bulgarian alliance that checked and destroyed the Latin force responsible for the 4rth crusade. Miskin 23:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khan Tervel and the siege of Constantinopole 

message: First let me tell you that I am quite impressed and very satisfied with the recent improvements. But some (minor) things can (and should) be done to improve the maps even further. On the other hand it is ungrateful work which requers a lot of time and patrience. If I knew to improve the maps I wouldn't be asking, but alas... 
*Please place the city of :Syracuse inside the maps. It seems to have been the local provincial capital (I might be wrong here) and the center of Byzantine power in that area.
*Please divide the empire in the first map (with the Byzantine Empire in light purple, and the Western Roman Empire in blood red). With the death of Theodosius the Great in 395 AD the division of the old Empire was made permanent (by the way that was the original reason for this date).
*Please replace the map inside the infobox (violet and green) with a map which follows the agreed colour schema ("light purple" + (please choose a good contrasting colour)). Don't forget to include the World locator map. 
*Please replace :Ravenna with :Venice in all the maps after 750 AD. As per the article :Exarchate of Ravenna Byzantine power over it ended around that date, and Venice slowly rose in power and importance into becoming a major player in the Mediterranean Sea.
*Please replace :Carthage with :Tunis in all the maps after 700 AD. Per both articles Carthage was conquered by the Arabs and lost its importance/was replaced by Tunis.
*After all these improvements the "map changinging box" at the end of the article could be then be improved with the light purple maps.
Flamarande 20:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it a rather understandable delay, with the Holidays and the such at this time of year. It is as well the primary reason why I've been abscent these passed days. --Dryzen 18:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further impovements of the maps (feel free to add  your own improvement proposals - only serious ones please :)