Talk:Drug abuse/Archive 1

message: Tagged for reasons below and overuse of "most" without adequate citation. I'm not into NPOVing this all by myself. Zosodada 03:27, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

message: Most of this article is composed of nothing but weasel words. --Viriditas  | Talk 11:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasel words

message: Please stop deleting the link to recreational drug use. It occurs immediately under the heading 'advocates of recreational drug use'. It is a relevant link. Guttlekraw 15:36, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The link to recreational drug use has never been deleted.  It has always beeen included in see also.  Please read the article before editing it. --Viriditas  | Talk 20:04, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it has been in the see also section, but it is directy relevant to the section of the same title. There are a lot of links in the article - are you advocating taking them all out and putting them in the see also, or just the ones that don't suit your point of view? Guttlekraw 21:15, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue at hand is your insertion of POV into multiple articles.  In this case, you have distorted the context of this article (like you have done in many other articles).  First of all, you've been asked to cite sources on other articles, so you should start doing that here as well.  Your current additions are not sourced, and may in fact be in error.  The lead clearly states, Drug abuse or substance abuse is the use of any chemical substance...in a way that society deems harmful to the user or others.  You then added, The definition is necesarily controversial and subjective since perceptions of abuse and social norms change over time and place.  That's all nice and good, but you need to provide a reference.  Regarding alcohol abuse you wrote, No comparable term is in common use to describe damaging use of cigarettes. That is clearly false, as it is referred to as substance abuse ("Averaging 10 or more cigarettes a day for a period of 1 or more years, on the other hand, served as the sole criterion for tobacco abuse") in the American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse.  See this article as an example.  Finally, you added back in a duplicate link to recreational drug use in relation to the statement, there are those who advocate strongly that the right to use drugs (see recreational drug use and responsible drug use), even to the point of harming oneself, is an individual right.  While I would agree with this addition, it does not read well, and would be better qualified as an additional sentence that does not break up the text. --Viriditas  | Talk 21:25, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  deletion of links 

message: Can someone else weigh in on this one? Linking the name of a section seems relevant to me. I'd like other's opinions. Guttlekraw 21:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not certain where the controversy is.  What link was removed?  Where was it before?  It's hard to tell from the history. --Thoric 22:06, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In a nutshell, Guttlekraw is on a campaign to remove the term drug abuse from the Wikipedia.  In doing so, he has gone so far as to change direct quotes from medical journals, distort accepted summaries of movies and books, and introduce glaring errors of fact (he claimed that tobbacco addiction wasn't classified as substance abuse).  In waging his edit war, he has shown no regard for the 3RR, nor for the NPOV policy.  He has been consistently asked to cite sources but he shows no understanding of that concept.  He has also changed links that link to drug abuse, even when such links were directly substantiated by references of fact.  --Viriditas  | Talk 22:34, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't we stick to the facts on this article. Viriditas objected to a link to recreational drug use under the sub-heading 'advocates for recreational drug use'. While full of bluster on what he thinks I did on other pages, he now seems to agree that this link is relevant, despite having removed it many times without explaining why. I think this is issue is solved now (see above) sorry to have wasted your time Thoric.  Viriditas - I have added sources, and tried to accomodate your extremely onerous and unusual requests as far as possible, and in trying to compromise have been hounded by your insistance that in trying to propose new versions I am breaching some rule or other. I am reaching the end of my patience with your unreasonable behaviour. Guttlekraw 22:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to have great difficulty "sticking to facts", and your mischaracterizaton of my reasoning and my edits is unjustified.  I have explained on your talk page and on related talk pages what is wrong with your edits but you refuse to take responsibility, instead placing the blame on others.  You have violated mulitple policies in your attempt to rid the Wikipedia of the term, drug abuse.  I do not agree with your edits and I will be changing them.  Unlike you, I adhere to policy, and I'm currently constrained by the 3RR.  I think it's quite telling that you refer to Wikipedia policy as "extremely onerous and unusual requests".  You aren't interested in contributing to an encyclopedia.  Your purpose here is to push your POV. --Viriditas  | Talk 23:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As usual, you have ignored the substance of the content here and instead focussed on your personal attacks. Are you saying that you have changed your mind about the comments you made above about agreeing that the links are appropriate? I do not want to remove the term 'drug abuse', but I want to use it appropriately, as a value judgement made by some people, where possible, citing who thinks the drug use in question is an abuse. Stating that you intend to revert my attempts at compromise as soon as you are technically able is not editing in good faith. Please try to be more constructive, and offer an alternative instead of simply reverting. Guttlekraw 23:10, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You aren't editing in good faith, as you are motivated by a POV campaign to distort the Wikipedia. The number of errors you are introducing into articles increases exponentially with every edit you make.  I intend to revert your edits to remove the errors, nothing more.  --Viriditas  | Talk 23:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As you are well aware, I addressed the one legitimate error (on tobacco name issues), there are no other 'errors' that you have pointed out, aside from the one of not agreeing with your point of view. Once again I would like to ask you to focus less on personal attacks and more on proposing alternatives to individual 'errors' that you are talking about. I am confident that a common understanding can be reached if you will stop your crusade based on the principle of reverting me. Guttlekraw 23:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am especially disheartened by your personal crusade to insert your POV into the Wikipedia at the expense of facts and in violation of known policies and guidelines.  You did not take responsibility for your changes on Sex education, where you changed a direct quote from a scientific study that referenced drug abuse to instead read, recreational drug use.  Changing direct quotes to suit your POV is a violation of policy.  This is a pattern that you have across multiple articles.  When these things are pointed out to you, you blame the person who catches your errors.  Currently, you have still refused to cite sources (perhaps you still haven't read the policy page?) when you make statements like, "the definition is necesarily controversial and subjective since perceptions of abuse and social norms change over time and place".  This is ironic, considering I just pointed out, as an example, the criteria of tobacco abuse, for example, which is not considered distinct from drug abuse (other than the fact that it's legal), yet you inserted your POV that it was.  Again and again, you continue to do this.  I can only conclude that reverting you on sight is the best policy.  --Viriditas  | Talk 23:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: You seem to be missing the point with your usual misdirection and misplacing of blame.  Your changes to the sex education page were identical to the changes you made to this and a number of other pages (A Scanner Darkly, Francis Ford Coppola, etc.) in your zeal to rid the Wikipedia of the term, "drug abuse".  Until you become familiar with policy, I have said everything there is to say about your edits.  I recommend that you study, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Cite sources, and Wikipedia:NPOV.  --Viriditas  | Talk 00:07, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: That is not a reference for what you have written.  How many times do I have to point you to Wikipedia:Cite sources? --Viriditas  | Talk 00:15, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So let me get this right, you want me to reference an external social history of opium? That's easy, although probably less useful to a reader. a timeline showing major events in the history of opium - this shows that major sections of society used opium in the past without considering it abuse. Another history of opium, showing the same thing. Another history of opium with quotes from famous historical figures extolling it's virtues. I could go on. And on. And on. Which of these would you like me to add to the beginning of the article to show that definition of abuse has changed over time and location? How many do you want? Guttlekraw 03:11, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: None of what you just posted has anything to do with citing sources for the content that you have added to this and other articles.  I'm beginning to think that you don't understand the purpose of this article, nor the encyclopedia. --Viriditas  | Talk 04:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment please?

message: This text was moved from the article for many reasons, many of which have to do with lack of citations, weasel words, and POV. Some of this text would be appropriate in the substance abuse article, that has yet to be created.  I will probably move much of this text there after I create the article..  After thinking about it, this type  of content belongs on this page, not substance abuse.  I would like to include the below content (but cited and reworked) in a section on moderation vs. abuse.  I think the main points of this section are important, and should be incorporated into the article with references. --Viriditas  | Talk 23:15, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text moved from main article 

message: It should,  "focus on several important social dimensions, including stress, poverty, domestic and societal violence and various diseases that are spread by drug abuse and addiction." (Qureshi et al.) --Viriditas  | Talk 02:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sociology of drug abuse section needed 

message: I removed some of the more severe pov that you introduced here, I think this new version is ok, except that picking a research paper that says 'drug use is bad' and then claiming that this is undisputed fact is clearly wrong. We must present the diversity of views on this topic, not just your point of view. Guttlekraw 17:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You must be reading an entirely different article.  What paper or section claims that "drug use is bad"? Are you still having difficulty understanding the difference between drug use and abuse? --Viriditas  | Talk 00:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: This page is to be refined and merged as a small subtopic of substance abuse.  Most of the information that is building up here should (and does) exist on other pages that discuss those topics primarily.  Wikipedia articles should stick to the topic at hand, and provide links to related topics with their own page.  This way we can keep the holy wars organized and have a Why Drugs are Good page and a Why Drugs are Bad page, and as long as each page clearly points to the other, people are free to argue their POV in the proper location. (BTW, I was joking about those article names -- I was trying to make my point clear.) --Thoric 19:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to temporarily put the merger on hold as I work out the differences between the terms, "drug abuse" and the clinical diagnosis (and treatment) of "substance abuse".  My medical dictionary defines both differently, and I have placed both definitions on those respective pages; Substance abuse is a clinical diagnosis, and has a specific meaning.  There is of course,  overlap between the two articles at this point, and that needs to be addressed.  So far, the term "drug abuse" appears to be a subset of "substance abuse", however this may not always be the case if for example, one is not diagnosed as a "substance abuser" as stated by the DSM IV.  I would like to continue my research before any merge is completed.  It would also be helpful if we could bring in any experts from the fields of pharmacology and medicine.  --Viriditas  | Talk 00:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly.  The medical difference is that drug abuse is specific to substances legally classified as "drugs"... basically anything in under the Controlled Substances Act, sections I through IV.  Substance abuse would additionally include anything under the CSA sections V and VI, as well as alcohol, nicotine, and just about anything people abuse... besides perhaps food, although that likely should be included.  Beware that much of the medical literature has been stigmatised by legal status and government pressure.  Scientific study shows that while lab rats (and even non-human primates) have little cognitive control over their "drug of choice", humans have quite a bit more "free will" on the matter.  It is well documented that addicts can switch their addiction between substances and onto behaviors with little difficulty (for example from cocaine, to alcohol, to sex, to gambling).  The line between drugs such as cocaine, heroin and marijuana versus drugs such as alcohol, nicotine and caffeine is completely a product of 80 odd years of propaganda, completely without scientific basis.  I think that at the very least, this article should be renamed to "Illegal substance abuse", and have the Drug abuse page as a disambiguation page with links to both Substance abuse and Illegal substance abuse.  --Thoric 00:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We are in agreement with the differences between drug abuse and substance abuse.  Could you modify both articles to reflect those changes?  Regarding the medical literature, I have tried to avoid any politically-motiviated conclusions, choosing to quote from what appear to be neutral studies that help illustrate the issues.  I can't see any reason to rename the article, "Illegal substance abuse" as much of drug abuse is legal.  I would be more interested in clarifying the differences.   --Viriditas  | Talk 00:37, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: True, I just noticed I made a suggestion which contradicts what I stated at the beginning of my paragraph (it's been a long day).  In this case, the Drug abuse entry should be made to include all controlled substances (I-IV), rather than focusing primarily on schedules I and II even if they are the most abused substances (next to alcohol and tobacco).  The drug abuse entry should also be subject to the same definition as the substance abuse page... namely stating that abuse is "A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress".  It is important that non-abusive use does not fall under the same heading as abuse, otherwise the article will be subject to POV Jihad ;)  --Thoric | Talk 00:48, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any issues with your suggestions, although the definitions for both articles appear to be different.  Again, I would like to find a consensus for keeping the pages separate based on different definitions.  I have no interest in including non-abusive use under drug abuse, and would be especially interested in explaining the difference with references.  I would actually like to move most of those discussions to the appropriate drug pages like you suggested, although a brief summary might be fine, with main or related link pointers.  Of coures, this article might have to be merged in any case, so I'm prepared for that if need be.  BTW, if you have any references to non-American citations (in English) that would be a welcome addition to this page. --Viriditas  | Talk 01:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Drug abuse is a subset of substance abuse. I suggest the two are kept seperate. There is a lot of science about drug abuse; much less has been written about substance abuse as a whole (e.g. personality structure predisposing to any addiction). JFW | T@lk 15:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Plenty has been written about substance abuse beyond CSA schedules I-IV.  No drug is abused more than alcohol is, yet "drug abuse" (which excludes alcohol) gets far, far more attention regardless of being a small drip out of a large keg (or cask).  I agree to keeping them separate as long as it is clear in the definition that the distinction between drug abuse and substance abuse is more a legal one than a scientific one.  (BTW, the science in question is based on decades of anti-drug agency funded research... essentially, "we'll give you funding if you can show the negative effects of these drugs, and we retain the right to interpret the data for our own purposes, and suppress any mention of non-detrimental effects").  There's absolutely no question that alcohol abuse is a far larger problem than marijuana abuse (which is CSA schedule I by the way).  --Thoric 21:08, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: #Introduction
##Medical, legal, and sociological definitions
###Problems with defintions
###Issues with abuse potential for listing as schedule I or II (i.e., cannabis does not seem to meet this requirement) (Related article: Cannabis rescheduling in the United States)
###Crime or disease?
#History of nonmedical drug consumption (Main article: History of drug use)
#Basic science, clinical, social issues
##Moderation vs. abuse
##Addiction (Main article: Drug addiction)
##Crime (Related article: Prohibition (drugs))
#Commonly abused drugs 
##Alcohol (Related article: Alcohol abuse)
###General risks (diseases)
###Neuroscience
###Adverse effects on organ systems, from prenatal to adult (Related article: Alcoholic beverage)
###Benefits {Related article: Alcohol consumption and health)
##Cannabis
###General risks (diseases)
###Neuroscience
###Adverse effects on organ systems, from prenatal to adult 
###Benefits (Related article: Medical marijuana)
##Opiates
###General risks (diseases)
###Neuroscience
###Adverse effects on organ systems, from prenatal to adult 
###Benefits
##Cocaine and other stimulants
###General risks (diseases)
###Neuroscience
###Adverse effects on organ systems, from prenatal to adult 
###Benefits
##Inhalants
###General risks (diseases)
###Neuroscience
###Adverse effects on organ systems, from prenatal to adult 
###Benefits
##Other drugs
###Anabolic steroids
###Secondary stimulants
####Nicotine
####Caffeine
#Management and treatment (Main article: Substance abuse)
##Pharmacotherapies
##Other therapies
###Harm reduction
###Acupuncture
###Entheogens
#References
Please make comments and/or suggestions below. --Viriditas  | Talk 12:32, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's an improvement, but why the list of 'commonly abused drugs'? Since you've introduced the multiple definitions above, acording to whom are they commonly abused? What you actually seem to be doing is listing possible effects of drug use, and I think that would be better off in another page. I also think that putting harm reduction in there under treatments is important. Guttlekraw 18:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that section is about the long-term consequences of drug abuse, not drug use.  For commonly abused drugs, see the Handbook of the Medical Consequences of Alcohol and Drug Abuse, Handbook of Psychotrophic Drugs (13th Revised Edition), and the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology. --Viriditas  | Talk 22:47, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do agree that Harm reduction deserves mention as a form of treatment (other therapies?)  Several countries are exploring this option, and a few have been practicing it for a few decades.  Methadone treatment is not all that far off from heroin maintenance.  Needle exchanges exist all over the place.  Canada has implemented safe injection sites that supply clean needles with medical supervision, and are about to start a limited trial of heroin maintenance clinics.  Non-profit organizations also exist which give out clean needles, crack pipe kits and information on how to minimize the harm you do to yourself and others.  --Thoric 23:02, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, although I would like to add the bulk of that content to substance abuse.  --Viriditas  | Talk 23:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: If you agree that harm reduction deserves a mention, why do you keep removing it? Think. Please. Guttlekraw 01:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You aren't fooling anyone with complex reverts. --Viriditas  | Talk 03:18, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Section 1.1.2 is a response to a suggestion by Thoric made further up in the discussion, and pertains to U.S. drug law.  He wrote: The medical difference is that drug abuse is specific to substances legally classified as "drugs"... basically anything in under the Controlled Substances Act, sections I through IV. Substance abuse would additionally include anything under the CSA sections V and VI, as well as alcohol, nicotine, and just about anything people abuse... besides perhaps food, although that likely should be included. --Viriditas  | Talk 05:10, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed outline 

message: There's some good information here if anyone is interested in adding it to the article.
===Neurobiology of drug abuse===
*Knowlton, Leslie. (Feb 1, 2005). "Why Are Drugs Abused By Humans?". Psychiatric Times.
===Opiates===
*Harding, Anne. (March 28, 2005). "A delicate balance: opiates are more common, but more controversial than ever." The Scientist.  v19 i6 pS38(2). 
===Inhalants===
*Wu, Li-Tzy, et al. (Oct, 2004) "Inhalant abuse and dependence among adolescents in the United States".  Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. v43 i10 p1206(9).
--Viriditas  | Talk 13:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content to be added 

message: *Wu, Li-Tzy, et al. (Oct, 2004) "Inhalant abuse and dependence among adolescents in the United States".  Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. v43 i10 p1206(9).
--Viriditas  | Talk 13:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inhalants

message: See Talk:Substance abuse for old content from this article that needs to be cleaned-up, cited, and merged.  It would be nice if someone could work on the rec. drug use section that was removed, and add it back in to this article.  I tried to add it back in, but it needs a lot of work, and I'm about to sign off. --Viriditas  | Talk 14:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content moved to Talk:Substance abuse for merge 

message: You just destroyed two articles, replacing both with stubs that summarize your point of view. Stop this vandalism and discuss these radical controversial changes before you make them. Guttlekraw 14:48, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the resulting article should be developed "offline" so to speak rather than replace the current articles with stubs in progress.  Viriditas agrees, and I'm hoping that you will also discuss your views here, and help us collect references to support them.  I believe we're all pretty much in agreement as to the direction of the articles, just hitting a few minor rough patches.  We must try to avoid butting heads and bruising egos, and remember that we're working towards a common goal.  --Thoric 21:43, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, much of this page has been proposed for merging into substance abuse and is waiting patiently on the talk page for someone to help do just that.  I think that the stub version of my last known edit to drug abuse allows us to proceed along a clear path.  Obviously, we will need to make mention of the information that has been proposed for merge, and I make that clear in the last section of the proposed outline.  While there is certainly merit to what you say about working offline, I was hoping that we could work together online. --Viriditas  | Talk 21:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant offline from the "live" page -- i.e. in a section of the talk page (somewhere not prone to reverts), certainly not "go work on it on your own computer" ;)  Or better yet, how about we work on it at User:Viriditas/Drug abuse? --Thoric 22:15, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's one solution.  We should all be able to work on this page, but Guttlekraw won't abide by policy.  Should I have to change my editing habits to accommadate his learning curve?  I'm going to upload a version of the page that I would like for us to work on, however this is a compromise, because I have attempted to merge this content with substance abuse, but nobody has helped. I seem to be the only person actively working on these pages, with Guttlekraw sitting on the sidelines reverting.  It's one thing for him to be a rude and obnoxious newbie, but it's another for him to refuse to contribute to these articles in any meaningful way except by reverting to unsourced and unmerged versions.--Viriditas  | Talk 22:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just trying to find a solution to the revert war ;)  I'm sorry I haven't been able to be more helpful, but my week has been insanely busy.  Major rewrites are a lot of (often thankless) work, but the result will certainly be worth it.  --Thoric 23:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand completely.  BTW, I've taken your previous suggestions to heart and I've merged the removed content back in for the time being.  Let me know what you think.  I want to add your comments about controlled substances next.  Feel free to add them if you have the time.--Viriditas  | Talk 23:20, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: OK, this is beyond what I can put up with.