Talk:Insane Clown Posse/Archive 1

message: why is there no reference to the pic of the the two guys at the top in the article??? is it meant to be there?
Coda.
:It's called vandalism.  An anonymous user (translation, someone who's too big a pussy to get a userid and hides behind an IP address) keeps trying to vandalize this article with random pictures of gay couples instead of the correct picture of ICP.  It's a 15-year-old mentality we serious editors have to put up with a lot here at wikipedia.  If you're a new user (which I suspect), welcome!  Please help us stop vandals, it's very easy and only takes a moment.  When you see a vandalized page, click on the history tab, use the compare buttons to compare different versions of the page in its history, and find the most recent version of the page where it looks unvandalized.  Edit that page in edit mode, but don't make any changes, just type "revert" or some such in the Edit Summary box and hit Save Page.  This will restore the article to its pre-vandalized state and you'll immediately be a hero and receive a check for 20 million dollars.  Well, I'm kidding about the hero and money parts, but still, try it out.  -Kasreyn 04:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First pic??

message: I listen to ICP, but one thing that has always bothered me is that in their music they stereotype people described as rednecks, hicks, and hillbillies as being racists. I know for a fact that this stereotype isn't always true (though it also sometimes IS).
as far back as the 1920's white blues musicians, who were self-described rednecks, hicks, and hillbillies recorded with black blues musicians. the same has been true ever since. Gringo300 20:41, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: broad generalizations

message: ICP doesn't steriotype all Southern people as racists.  Listen to Rebel Flag, they say "The cool in the South teamed up with the North and blew that bigot off..."  Which basically shows that they know there's cool people in the South, but the racists one's are just redneck, trashy, hillbilly, bigot bastards.
====racist? or misanthropic?====
yes, there are definitely a lot of trashy people around every place in the south i have ever lived (but then again, for all i know it may be the same way in the north, the west, the east, etc., too.) however, i think "misanthropic" may be at least as, maybe more, accurate a term as "racist" for a lot of these people- basically, they hate EVERYBODY, regardless of their race. it reminds me of a quote i heard: "i'm not a racist- i hate everybody EQUALLY." Gringo300 01:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: To Gringo300

message: yes, there are definitely a lot of trashy people around every place in the south i have ever lived (but then again, for all i know it may be the same way in the north, the west, the east, etc., too.) however, i think "misanthropic" may be at least as, maybe more, accurate a term as "racist" for a lot of these people- basically, they hate EVERYBODY, regardless of their race. it reminds me of a quote i heard: "i'm not a racist- i hate everybody EQUALLY." Gringo300 01:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: racist? or misanthropic?

message: Well, aside from the rambling above, i'm adding that they were originally called Inner City Posse, and took ICP and moved to Insane Clown Posse. Crackshoe 03:06, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't include our own point of view editorializing in an encyclopedic article.  Please refer to WP:NOR.  We already mention in the article, if I'm not mistaken, that a track on Shangri-La claims god as inspiration.  But we can't insert an editorial defending ICP; their words and actions are going to have to speak for them.  Kasreyn 22:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Next Header

message: I've just removed this, which was in an extra "Discography" section for some reason (I've deleted hat, too):
:"There was also a mixed album called "Mutilation Mix" on 4/1/1997."
Aside from being wrongly formatted, it's very obscure: what's meant by "mixed album", and what's the release date?  Is it an album of remizes released on 4th January, an album of mixed styles/bands/other released on 1st April, or what?  If anyone knows, could they either replace the information in the appropriate place, or leave it here and I can do it? --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 08:47, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hah, I went to add it, and found that it had been there all along (in the comilations section). --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 12:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mutilation Mix 

message: The article has been pulled back and forth by different editors, mostly anons, who change (for example) "Kickjazz" to "Kickchass" and back, never giving any reason.  Could someone offer some evidence for one of these (and the same for other names being treated in the same way)> --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 18:14, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  names 

message: Juggalo should not be merged with the Insane Clown Posse arcticle, nor should it be labeled as a sub-culture, yet. Juggaloism is more of a sect, where people can be labeled as a Juggalo even if they haven't ever heard of Insane Clown Posse, although only someone who listened to their music would be able to make this distinction. I'm currently in the process of updating both arcticles and I hope I can make them a little clearer and more informative.Juggalicious 01:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub-culture? 

message: Just fixed all the stuff someone put on the site while they were hating on ICP and made it impartial again. look at the older versions
===That'd be me===
I just had to make that known. It's not as though anyone actually cares... about the ICP article on Wikipedia. So... yeah. The seagul is cute.
:The point isn't whether anyone cares about the ICP article in particular.  It's whether anyone cares that Wikipedia should be a trusted source for information.  And as to that, I do care.  I don't mean to bite your head off if you're a newcomer to Wikipedia, but there's really no place here for random altering of articles just for a lark, no matter how unpopular the subject of the article.  -Kasreyn 06:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how this article is false or makes ICP look bad.  You should see some of the defamatory things people keep trying to add, which I (and other hard-working editors like AngelicWraith) have to keep removing.  On the whole, the wikipedia article on ICP is one of the most positive takes on the band to be found anywhere online, excepting the band's own website.  However, a lot of people, for obvious reasons, want to get an objective opinion.  This article on ICP is primary hit #4 on Google for string "insane clown posse", did you know that?  That means we're getting read.  So don't worry about ICP's portrayal.  As long as we keep this article objective and fair - which we will - no one will be decieved.  Kasreyn 22:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who was the jackass who edited this before, today 

message: I just had to make that known. It's not as though anyone actually cares... about the ICP article on Wikipedia. So... yeah. The seagul is cute.
:The point isn't whether anyone cares about the ICP article in particular.  It's whether anyone cares that Wikipedia should be a trusted source for information.  And as to that, I do care.  I don't mean to bite your head off if you're a newcomer to Wikipedia, but there's really no place here for random altering of articles just for a lark, no matter how unpopular the subject of the article.  -Kasreyn 06:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how this article is false or makes ICP look bad.  You should see some of the defamatory things people keep trying to add, which I (and other hard-working editors like AngelicWraith) have to keep removing.  On the whole, the wikipedia article on ICP is one of the most positive takes on the band to be found anywhere online, excepting the band's own website.  However, a lot of people, for obvious reasons, want to get an objective opinion.  This article on ICP is primary hit #4 on Google for string "insane clown posse", did you know that?  That means we're getting read.  So don't worry about ICP's portrayal.  As long as we keep this article objective and fair - which we will - no one will be decieved.  Kasreyn 22:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: That'd be me

message: You only mentioned how Eminem spoke of the faygo-showerings because you knew the lyric in question was a (really good) dis of ICP and you wanted people to go listen to it.  :P  Otherwise it doesn't have much relevance to the faygo-showerings.  Perhaps there could be a section devoted to the rivalry with Eminem?  -Kasreyn 08:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it would be consistent.  The article on Eminem makes mention of his rivalries, including ICP.  Personally, I'm a fan of both Eminem and ICP and the dis tracks are just hilarious.  -Kasreyn 06:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Admit it, AngelicWraith

message: There really should be another section. I smell smoke.. oh wait, that's just Kasreyn fanning the flames. :P
Fr0 01:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it would be consistent.  The article on Eminem makes mention of his rivalries, including ICP.  Personally, I'm a fan of both Eminem and ICP and the dis tracks are just hilarious.  -Kasreyn 06:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Agreed, Kasreyn

message: Can anyone explain what happened to the image ICP_Blood.jpg?  On its page I do not find any mention that it was removed for copyright violation.  Apparently it was deleted from wikipedia *before* being removed from this article.  I can't find a cached copy on Google, and I don't know how to adhere to wikipedia policy in finding a copyright-free image to replace it with.  Does anyone have a cache of the original image or possibly an explanation as to why it was removed?  Was it in fact a copyright violation?  Was this done by the same vandal who was constantly replacing the image with other ones?  Is there some sort of history page for image deletions? -Kasreyn 06:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no record of history deletions, but it was probably deleted for not having copyright data.  Images without an appropriate copyright tag can be deleted without warning or record after seven days. Tuf-Kat 06:19, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, how do I go about vetting a new image to replace it with?  I'm unfamiliar with the procedure.  -Kasreyn 06:42, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, see Wikipedia:Images for all the gory details.  In brief, the best thing to do is go to fansites with photos of ICP, and e-mail the webmaster asking if he owns the copyright to the photos (ie he took the picture himself) and if he'd be willing to freely license one or more.  You could also look around sites like Flickr, which allow users to tag photos as free (usually Creative Commons) and which often includes photos of concerts.  If you can't find anything this way, you can use Wikipedia:Fair use, such as an album cover or promotional photo, but this is generally frowned upon (though still common). Tuf-Kat 06:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing Image

message: >"This guy had problems," said Abbiss, and "anyone going into a bar swinging an axe and shooting a gun ... would clearly have to be insane and out of their mind to do this." He went on, "it's quite obvious that this guy had no clue what being a Juggalo is all about.<
insane...like the insane clown posse? isnt "being insane" what insane clown posse is partially about?
*The point Alex was trying to make was one would have to have severe mental issues to commit such a heinus act on society, and those issues were completely independent of the entertainment provided by Psychopathic Records. - 66.58.196.67 20:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does it matter?  This is an encyclopedia.  We're not here to judge whether what someone says makes sense.  We're here to report on what they have said and let the readers draw their own conclusions.  If what Abbiss said seems like nonsense to you, it might not seem like that to others.  Kasreyn 03:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  someone explain 

message: We've had a higher volume of anonymous IP vandals recently than I've seen in some time at this article.  Can the article be protected from anon edits for a few days until they get bored and go back to putting the littler kids' heads in the toilets and griefing in WoW?  Kasreyn 09:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems reasonable, and needed. Done. Proto||type 10:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admins:  requesting sprotect 

message: Fyrre, I notice you added an NPOV tag to the top of the article, but haven't stated on this talk page your reasons why you feel the article doesn't conform to WP:NPOV.  Maybe you weren't aware, but adding the NPOV tag requires explaining your reasons why on the associated talk page.  Mind filling us in on what's wrong?  Kasreyn 12:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: We still need a copyright-free image of J and Shaggs for the intro section.  If anyone can find an image that meets Wikipedia's standards, please upload it!  Kasreyn 21:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image request redux 

message: There should be more discussion on how hated they are. When there is more info about the group rather than this it is not neutral.
:Information about how much people hate them is not neutral at all. There is no information in the article about people's like for them, either. In my opinion, I don't like this band, but opinion shouldn't be on encyclopedia pages. DakPowers (Talk) 05:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not enough mention of how they are hated 

message: As we try to make an entry with balanced Neutrality, user KASREYN is committed to delete and put back his own "Dark Carnival" mythology and meanings when clearly this is only a page to give the general public a brief history of ICP. No one besides the hardcore ICP fan wants to hear about the fictitious story of the "evil spirits" and "the Ringmaster". What the entry is meant to have in its content is an overview of ICP's history and user KASREYN is clearly committed to omit ICP's negative reputation.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.229.107.247 (talk • contribs) .  
:Accusations of bias are dime a dozen here.  The previous version is not "mine" any more than it is anyone's, though I've certainly done my share of work on it.  The previous version (current version again now) was largely unsourced, something that needed work; your version would be even less sourced, adding a great deal of original research and weasel words.  I'm not saying the previous version was perfect, but we don't need even more unsourced claims added.
:I have nothing against including mention of ICP's bad press, as long as it is fairly represented and reliably sourced.  Please note though that a group that has eight gold and three platinum albums has a not inconsiderable fan base.  It's clearly disingenuous, therefore, to claim that there aren't enough interested readers to make a description of the Dark Carnival notable.  The general public clearly includes a great many people who have bought ICP albums.  This makes inclusion of this material notable, in my opinion.
:Despite whatever you think, I'm not out to own this article.  Reverting an edit is not a declaration of war.  The article needs to be more well sourced, not less.  If criticism of ICP is as widespread as you claim it is, I'm sure you will be able to find plenty of sources.  Best of luck, Kasreyn 20:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. my username is not capitalized.  There's no need to SHOUT.  Kasreyn 20:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: User KASREYN is committed to his version

message: To the editor who has added a great deal of unsourced new material, please refer to WP:NOR.  I will be adding citation needed tags as needed shortly.  Kasreyn 19:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Research