Talk:NCAA Division I-A National Football Championship/Archive 2007

message: There is an ongoing debate on the college football talk page that will impact this page.  Please participate there if you have any viewpoints you wish to be considered.--Tlmclain  | Talk 15:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important Debate on [[WP:CFB]] 

message: This table has no headings at the top of the columns.  
Retroactive/research polls     	Retroactive/research polls              	Retroactive/research polls     	Retroactive/research polls
                               	National Championship Foundation        	                               	Table below reflects selections from 1869-1882 and from 1924-1953
                               	College Football Researchers Association	                               	Table below reflects selections from 1924-1953
                               	Helms Athletic Foundation               	                               	Retroactive 1883-1941, Contemporaneous 1942-1982; Table below reflects selections from 1883-1953
Statistical analysis           	Statistical analysis                    	Statistical analysis           	Statistical analysis
                               	Dickinson System                        	                               	Contemporaneous 1926-1940
Media/opinion polls            	Media/opinion polls                     	Media/opinion polls            	Media/opinion polls
                               	United Press                            	                               	Before Bowls
                               	Associated Press                        	                               	After Bowls 1965 and 1968-current
                               	International News Service              	                               	Before Bowls
                               	Football Writers Association of America 	                               	After Bowls 1955-current
2005-Current}}                 	Harris Interactive Poll                 	                               	Used only for BCS Rankings
The Coaches poll, published by:	The Coaches poll, published by:         	The Coaches poll, published by:	The Coaches poll, published by:
                               	United Press                            	                               	Before Bowls
                               	United Press International              	                               	After Bowls 1974-1990
                               	USA Today/CNN                           	                               	After Bowls
                               	USA Today/ESPN                          	                               	After Bowls
                               	USA Today/ESPN                          	                               	Required to vote for BCS title game winner
                               	USA Today                               	                               	Required to vote for BCS title game winner
Presidential Proclamation      	Presidential Proclamation               	Presidential Proclamation      	Presidential Proclamation
                               	Richard Nixon                           	                               	Declaration of championship awarded to winner of Texas vs. Arkansas (a number one vs. number two game at the time)
Without them, what are to make of the columns? Yeah, yeah, I know it's obvious that one column is the year, the next the name of the "poll" (or whatever) and the third is the abbreviation.  But what is the point of the fourth column?  If it's explanatory, it fails, because I find it confusing.  Tables are supposed to organize information to make the infor easier to understand.  This yields confusion.  And what is the reason for having the third column (abbreviation) at all?  This table looks like someone put in a lot of work, but not a lot of thought.  An "A" for effort, a "C-" for result. Unschool 23:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with table 

message: Bama has 12 recognized titles. You have left out 1941. Feel free to check with the university or your own article on Frank Thomas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.59.202.209 (talk) 17:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alabama claims 12 titles. The number of recognized titles varies depending on who you ask. ESPN, for example, recognizes only seven of them, if memory serves me correctly. I don't have their encyclopedia on hand. Dlong 01:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Joeypowell:  Let's look at 1941, which is one of the "Alabama National Titles."  That year, 84.2% of the selectors said Michigan was number 1.  10.3% of the selectors said that Teaxas was number 1.  Three other schools had just ONE selector pick them as number 1: Alabama, Duke and Georgia.  So, if you are saying that Alabama had a national title in 1941, wouldn't you have to agree that Texas (who got 3 more votes) and Georgia and Duke also have a national title in 1941? In light of the overwhelming selection of Michigan in 1941, can any of the other four schools truly state that they were national champions in 1941? That is why many people draw a distinction between "national titles" and claims to national titles.  It certainly can be said that Alabama can claim a national title in 1941 because they were named number 1 by at least one selector, but it is difficult to stretch that to making the claim that Alabama "won" the national title in 1941.--Tlmclain  | Talk 19:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The University of Alabama 

message: A new discussion about the direction of this article is now on WP:CFB at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football#National Titles.  Your input would be appreciated.--Tlmclain  | Talk 22:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New discussion 

message: I fixed someone's "correction" for this year. If you want to include Bama fine but please list what group/organization has stated they were the national champions. Also even if some group considered them the national champions it does not change the fact that other groups (National Championship Foundation NCF, College Football Researchers Association CFRA, Helms Athletic Foundation H  and  Dickinson System D) listed Minnesota as the national champs. So please tell us who considers Alabama as champs for 1934 and please do not delete Minnesota's information Smith03 02:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1934 

message: should this be kept? it one year (1969) Smith03 03:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nixon's Presidential Proclamation 

message: "Table below reflects selections from 1883-1953"
I reverted the addition of 1960 Washington based on what is stated on the article about Helms being used from 1883-53. It seems a bit silly just to add one addtional year (1960) without adding 1954-59 Helms selections. Also why should Helms be extend out to 1960? Smith03 19:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Helms 1960 Washington 

message: I have updated the list of National Champions using the following sources:
1869-1882 - I have used the National Championship Foundation picks ("NCF").  There are few other sources available for this period, and this is the only one "recognized" by College Football Data Warehouse as reputable.
1883-1923 - I have used Helms Athletic Foundation picks.  Although other reputable sources are available, this one, to my understanding, is the most widely recognized list for this period.  
1924-1934 - I have included Helms, NCF, College Football Research Associates ("CFRA"), and the Dickinson System.  Dickinson was a statistical evaluation conducted beginning in 1926, with retroactive analysis for 1924 and 1925.  Helms, NCF and CFRA are all recognized as reputable by College Football Data Warehouse.  Helms selections are listed first as the most widely recognized source.  Indeed, it would be entirely reasonable to omit CFRA, NCF and Dickinson for this period and to list any particularly strong candidate as based on "other" sources.
1935 - I add the United Press poll for this year, the end of season press poll.  
1936 - I add the Associated Press poll.  The United Press poll was discontinued.  AP selections are now listed first as the most widely recognized source.  I continue Helms, CFRA, NCF and Dickinson, although these are far less relevant beyond 1935.  Again, it would be entirely reasonable to omit Helms, CFRA, NCF and Dickinson for this period and to list any particularly strong candidates as based on "other" sources.
1941 - Dickinson results are no longer produced.
1950 - I add the United Press coaches poll.  This becomes the 2nd priority selection.  Helms, NCF and CFRA assist in sorting out post-bowl champions.
1952 - I add International News Service, another press poll.
1954 - I add the Football Writers Association of America (FWAA), which offers the Grantland Rice Trophy to the national champion.  I drop Helms, NCF and CFRA since four contemporaneous sources are now available.  In 1955, the FWAA begins deciding its championship after the bowls, the first to do so, likely in response to the 1950, '51 and '53 losses by the regular season champs.
1958 - UP and INS merge and continue the UP coaches poll as the UPI.
1991 - UPI coaches poll is taken over by USA-Today/CNN.
1997 - USA-Today/CNN coaches poll is taken over by USA-Today/ESPN.
1998 - Coaches poll agrees to be bound by winner of BCS National Championship Game, so champion is now referred to as "BCS".  Since the major conferences have agreed to be part of the BCS and its championship game system, the BCS replaces the AP as the first listed national championship.
In several cases I have included champions selected by "other" sources.  I believe that there are strong cases for each of these.  A similar case could be made for several schools during the 1876-1923 period that I have not included here.  There are many references included below, however, that can be followed to learn more about these.
One championship that I did not include is the National Football Foundation and Hall of Fame's MacArthur trophy.  It is now linked to the BCS like the coaches poll.  It would add only a couple of champions from 1959-1990, none of which, I believe, were widely recognized.
I have changed Ohio State's redirects to redirect to Ohio State Buckeyes instead of the Ohio State University, since that seems to be the standard for most of the list.--Majorpayne27 18:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sam left a message as to why he reverted your changes.  I believe that Texas is the only school linked to the athletics website. Rkevins82 13:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: …and poof; just like that, they're all gone -- KelleyCook 18:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I have implemented standards for list 

message: How about a chart including a breakdown of championships won by conference? The chart would have to include the conference the school was a member of when playing (e.g. Miami's titles count for the Big East not the ACC). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.229.162.185 (talk • contribs) 03:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breakdown by conference 

message: According to news sources, Washington has recently recognized themselves as the 1960 champions.  In 1960, the championship designation was given prior to the bowl games.  So Minnesota was given that honor, despite already having one loss.  They then went on to lose the Rose Bowl to Washington.  Washington ended the season with one loss while Minnesota finished with two.  This should probably be reflected in the chart so Washington can get their due. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.245.75.2 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1960 Champions 

message: I like the list of most national championships since 1901, but have reformatted it to put those who have won the most recent championship first, followed by the second most recent, etc.  This convention is used within each "tally" of wins (e.g., those with 11 national championships, four, etc.).  This seems fair to me and is not meant to offend Tide fans or Wolverines, (or Harvard fans, for that matter).  Also wondering what the rationale is for stopping at four.  Maybe have this list multiple winners (i.e., extend the list to those teams that have won at least two national championships, as defined)? Newguy34 15:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most National Championships 

message: I highly disagree with that statement.  Before the games were actually played you could say Michigan was unfailrly left out, but Florida DID win more games against more 'quality' opponents than Michigan did.  Now, after the games were played, how can you say it's controversial?  Michigan couldn't even win the Rose Bowl against USC, so it's fair to say they didn't deserve to be there, and OSU being in the championship IS justified because they were undefeated. Bio2590 01:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This year's Championship "Controversial"? 

message: Someone deleted USC's 2003 AP national championship.  While I agree that the BCS national champ should be listed first since the major conferences have agreed to the BCS system, the AP championship is widely recognized as legitimate even in the BCS era.  My revision of the list is intended to reflect most widely recognized champions, including co-champions.  USC's claim is better than many included for earlier years and I have restored it to the list. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drewinmaine (talk • contribs) 11:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2003 USC 

message: Sometime soon this article will need to be moved to NCAA Division I FBS national football championship.  The public has been informed of the name change and is becoming more familiar with it, and, more importantly, Division I-A is no longer the official name of the subdivision.  Wikipedia should always have the best and most recent information, and the name change is no longer too recent to ignore.  Several minutes ago I had to undo an anonymous edit which changed the bold text at the beginning on the article, as well as a couple of other references to Division I-A, to Division I Football Bowl Subdivision.  The name of this article is outdated, and people are noticing.  I suggest we move the article to the forementioned page in the near future, especially as the college football season is nearly underway. Iowa13 14:21, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, the page should not be moved.  This is a historical list and it was not called the FBS for 99% of the teams.  It was a stupid politically inspired name change by the NCAA that was ignored by all the major media outlets.  Moreover, the NCAA does not maintain the championships, so they have no say in the matter. Ironically if they ever do take over this function, then they would have to rename their premiere division again. -- KelleyCook 15:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point about the NCAA not maintaining the championship.  Case closed. Iowa13 21:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football Bowl Subdivision 

message: Some have taken offense to the correct punctuation when referring to USA Today's Coaches' Poll.  The plain and simple fact is that USA Today, who owns the poll, refers to it as the "Coaches' Poll", complete with a possessive apostrophe.  I suspect it's because there is more than one coach that votes in it.  If there are other articles that have the same error of omission, shouldn't they be fixed?  76.187.17.173 22:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coaches' poll issue 

message: The NFF national champions have been added to the By Year list.  Those champions are listed as consensus champions in the official NCAA record book, but do they really deserve mention here?  I doubt, for example, that anyone would recognize a national championship for Notre Dame in '64. Iowa13 03:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gone -- KelleyCook 16:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Football Foundation 

message: Can someone fix LSU's most national championships? Iowa13 03:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  These folks are getting silly. Newguy34 04:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most NC's: LSU 

message: This is the “official” NCAA page. I don’t believe that the Wikipedia page (section with championship by year) is complete or accurately reflects the NCAA summary of prior selectors’ selections of national champion for football.
http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/ia_football_past_champs.html
Past Division I-A Football National Champions
The NCAA does not conduct a national championship in Division I-A football and is not involved in the selection process. Since 1998, the Bowl Championship Series (BCS) has conducted a contest between it's two top-ranked teams to determine a national champion. More information on the BCS is available at their Web site.
A number of polling organizations also provide a final ranking of Division I-A football teams at the end of each season. Below is a year-by-year history of Division I-A football national champions as determined by the BCS championship game and these polling organizations. More information on national poll rankings is available in the Division I-A section of the NCAA Divison I-A/I-AA Football Records Book.
<snip>Long copy and paste of teams and their championship years was removed to save space and to avoid copyright concerns - please follow the above link.</snip> 
* Note : Organization chose multiple schools —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wolvve85 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement above is NOT true.  The NCAA handbook reference on pp. 75-78 is NOT consistent with the table in this article.  It is consistent with the other NCAA reference at http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/ia_football_past_champs.html.  At the moment, this table reflects an imagined consensus about which teams were national champions.  Instead, it should reflect reality--the cacophony of voices that have existed through history over this issue.  At some point, if it's not done earlier, I will update the table to reflec the NCAA's own listing--it is the only appropriate source unless there is substantially more discussion and consensus about what should and should not be included.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gvharrier (talk • contribs) 22:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NCAA Official Page Below 

message: I say we delete all poll era championships that aren't AP, UPI, or FWAA. I also say we only recognize the champions of Helms and Dickinson polls from 1883-1935. And yes, we should recongnize USC's 2003 AP title. Finally, for most national titles, we put, in parentheses, next to each team, the number of post-1901 titles each team recognizes. Anthony Del Fiacco 17:40, 9 September 2007
Also.
UGA's 1943 rose bowl championship is not listed  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.103.186 (talk) 03:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's your reasoning on a 1935 cutoff for the Helms poll? From my perspective, we either include a poll or we do not. And if we include a poll, we include every year the poll existed. --Don Sowell 16:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason why the Helms should be used exclusively for the 1883-1935 period, but the NCF carries weight both BEFORE and AFTER that period.  It's pretty obvious that there should be MANY co-champions in the 1883-1935 period because so many teams failed to play each other (especially on opposite coasts for obvious reasons).  The correct method is to choose which ranking systems are appropriate and reliable, and then use those systems THROUGHOUT the chosen ranking period, e.g., the NCF up to a point at which it becomes obvious that it has been deemed less reliable.  I suggest using the NCAA's page which has a pretty complete listing of championships, and to which probably most schools are referencing their listings: http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/ia_football_past_champs.html.  Unless we're smarter than anyone else, we should be relying on this listing in all likelihood.  Gvharrier 21:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: Please give API credit for winning the 1957 NC. API was re-named Auburn in 1960. 'Auburn' has never won a NC.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomli004 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Auburn has won a national championship, just under a different name. I say keep it as Auburn because the average reader will probably be more inclined to recognize "Auburn" rather than "API". Just my two cents on that issue. -- Rbkdan 15:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the fact of the matter is that even when Auburn was officially called API, everyone still referred to it at "Auburn."  Seancp 22:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alabama Polytechnical Institute 

message: I think Georgia should be recognized for 1942. They were consensus champions picked by at least half of the recognized polls. (Recognition by the National College Football Hall of Fame and the Official NCAA Record Book.)
http://www.georgiadogs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=46724&SPID=3571&DB_OEM_ID=8800&ATCLID=526158
http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/sec/georgia/national_champs.php
http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/sec/georgia/all_national_champs.php Failureofafriend 06:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Iowa13 is in the midst of building a new table that will list that and other championships.  The listings will include added info on the level of credibility and whether it was awarded contemporaneously or retroactively.  See the discussion above under Controversial NCs at the bottom. Gvharrier 15:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Georgia 1942 

message: Some want to use "Louisiana State" but I see in the NCAA "Official Division Football Records Book" that it uses "LSU".  Note that the University of Southern California is denoted "USC" despite South Carolina using the same abbreviation.  At least LSU is unique.  We are rebuilding the championship tables which rely heavily on the NCAA sources and uses "LSU". Gvharrier (talk) 19:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using LSU, other abbreviations 

message: We have Michigan's 1947 extra poll tallied both in the overall champioships and in the poll era, but not in the AP subtotal.  As the Associated Press itself does not recognize the validity of this unofficial poll run by the Detroit Free Press, I am correcting the two entries and moving the reference to it's proper spot. Note that the total championships is remaining the same as well as the AP championships. -- KelleyCook  20:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, Madpole.  I'm not sure when that sentence found its way into the article, but it shouldn't be there.  I'll remove it. Iowa13 (talk) 04:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reduce Michigan's Poll Era total by 1