Category talk:American people convicted of murder

message: Should this category be "American convicted murderers" or similar?  At the moment it seems slightly ill-defined, leaving open the possibility of POV additions. TSP 00:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think so.  We don't want to open the "generally believed to be guilty of" can of worms. -  Che Nuevara:  Join the Revolution 23:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. An even better name might be "Americans convicted of murder," in fact, since "convicted murderers" refers to a a specific sort of murderer rather than a specific sort of convict. --Ian Maxwell 06:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree as per above. – Morganfitzp 12:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I also agree.  Americans Convicted of Murder is more precise and neutral, with perhaps a different category for Americans Accused of Murder.  Just my humble suggestion, for whatever it is worth.  Zahir13 16:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that "Americans Convicted of Murder" would probably be a better name for a category... "American murderers" sounds somewhat pejorative.  ekedolphin 10:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: I don't think this category is very large.  If subcategories are added, I don't think this category should be depopulated.  If there are no negative comments, I will remove the very large tag in a few days. -- Samuel Wantman 20:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very large? 

message: Some who were included in "Category:American murderers" were known to have committed murder without ever having been convicted - most commonly because they died before ever being discovered or prosecuted. --Dystopos 19:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. And others were convicted of something less than murder, but "Americans convicted of involuntary homicide" (etc) doesn't have a dramatic ring to it, and readability may trump factual accuracy (in the minds of some editors, not mine). See my comment two sections ago. -- Hoary 23:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone could have suggested "Americans convicted of killing" when it was up for renaming.  The problem with broader categories (outside of "convicted of") is that a conviction is verifiable; it is not verifiable whether or not someone is a "murderer."  Ultimately I think there is a deeper problem here, which is that a category such as this is simply not all that useful or encyclopedic. csloat 05:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't notice that it was being renamed. All I saw was that the new category had been misapplied to Tom Neal: hapless, unpleasant and homicidal, but not convicted of murder. -- Hoary 06:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (re: sloat's comment) The determination of whether or not someone is a murderer can certainly take into account sources other than a legal conviction. You can have confessions, biographical analyses, objective reports, etc. Where there is no controversy (i. e. Seung-Hui Cho) it is clearly enough to cite reliable sources. Where there may be controversy (i. e. Aaron Burr) it is best not to be categorical. --Dystopos 12:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not unreasonable. However, when there's been a homicide and a suspect has, in a generally respected legal system, either been found innocent or been found guilty of lesser charges, and hasn't confessed (etc), then I don't think it's right for WP to announced that the suspect is a murderer. ¶ What do you think of this character? The article tells us that he's been charged with murder (and that prosecutors are seeking the death penalty). But the categorization says that he has already been convicted of murder. I think that this is wrong; indeed that it's the kind of thing that's a stain on WP. Come to think of it, I'll remove the cat right now. -- Hoary 16:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe I already said that where guilt is uncertain or controversial, it would be better not to categorize. --Dystopos 19:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

text: This is the reason the category name was changed.  Whether someone was convicted of murder or not is an objective question easily determined by observation, and about which there can be no "controversy."  Whether someone is a murderer or not, however, is a subjective question about which there can be a lot of controversy, even after a successful conviction (see, for example, Leonard Peltier, which is the page that got me interested in this category in the first place).  It's perfectly reasonable to consider him an American convicted of murder, but there is a lot of controversy about whether he actually is one.  He clearly fits the current category name.  And it is true that there are a lot of probable murderers who have not been convicted -- rather than try to deal with all those sticky questions in a category, we should keep the category simple and verifiable (and keep people who have not been "convicted of murder" out of the category). csloat 18:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And that is the reason the name change introduced inaccuracies. There are numerous cases of uncontroversial identifications of people as murderers. The court system is not the only verifiable source for that identification, but it is the only source for a conviction. Where shall we put those murderers who were not convicted? This is a separate question from the issue of controversial claims. --Dystopos 19:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: * In my opinion the distinction between your proposed categories is unclear and the tendency to multiply categories is unpromising. In the interest of simplicity, I again propose that the category be maintained as "American murderers" and cases where it would be POV to apply the category should be left uncategorized. --Dystopos 20:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Rambone, please stop edit warring.  The name of the category is "Americans convicted of murder."  This should not include people who have not been convicted of murder any more than it should include non-Americans.csloat 17:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit warring by Rambone