Talk:Maronite Church/Archive 1

message: This is not an ethnicity but a language. The Lebanese, regardless of religion, share the same genes with the rest of the Levantines and are mainly Cana'anites(Phoenicians)ethnically speaking.
:Ethnicity and language are largely intertwined, and have little to do with genes. Aramaeans in antiquity were regarded as a distinct people from Phoenicians/Canaanites.
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Ethnicity is far closer connected to genes than language, a German-American who speaks English is till German by ethnicity, that is an indisputable fact.
The Aramean speakers in Lebanon were not Arameans by ethnicity, just like they aren't ethnically Arabs today. 
Recent genetic studies have proven that Cana'anites/Phoenicians/Lebanese are the same people regardless of language and religion, so the same goes with the Maronites. It would be very appropriate to change this: "they are mainly Syriac-Aramaeans with a mix of Phoenician, Crusader, and Greeks." As it should really deal with ethnicity. And the crusader/Greek admixture is neglible as best.
The Wikipedia articles on Lebanon and Syria should also be changed.
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I would like to give you crach course of the identification of phenocians, the truth is that there is no ethnic group called phenocians. Phenocia is a geografical term that was invented by the greeks. Canaites is a term that is not used in greater extension as an identification of a group, but rather the land of the canaites. And there have not been any evidence of canaites when the greeks came to Beth nahrin//syro-mesopotamia, the truth is that the canaites was aramaized long time before the greeks arrived . The "phenocians"(that is people that lived in phenocia) are ethnically arameans. Suryoyo 23:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Syriac-Arameans" 

message: Both Maronites and Maronite Catholic Church now redirect to Maronite. In my opinion, this article should be split, with Maronite serving as a disambiguation page. -Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 17:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? Seems to me that that's unnecessarily complicated. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it would be convenient to have an article about the Maronite church, and one about the Maronite people. I assumed there would also be secularised or non-Catholic Maronites. But I could very well be mistaken. ---Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 22:34, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I was a bit too hasty adding the {Split}} tag to this article. Any input about the matter is appreciated, though. For now, I'll remove the tag. ---Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 09:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You should try to read a bit about ethnic, national and religious phenomenons in the Ottoman Empire and in post-Ottoman countries: Maronites are not an ethnic group separated from their church, they are'nt either "Syriacs" or "Arameans" or whatsoever. --Pylambert 00:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: I think people discussing here should have a look at the doings of some anti-Arab Christian activists at the Assyrian-related articles. They even designed a totally inaccurate and propagandist Syriacs box, mentioning Maronites and Melkites as "Syriacs", thus non-Arabs, which I proposed for deletion here. Pylambert 23:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  non-Arab Middle East Christians 

message: "Maronite Rite" (Wild Wolf's change) is not the most suitable title for this article.  "Maronite Church" would be better.  "Rite" requires disambiguation.  "Church" is easily understood. "Maronite Catholic Church" would be tautological.  The previous simple title "Maronite" may well be quite enough, but Wild Wolf is probably right in thinking there should be indication that the word concerns a Church rather than a nationality or the like.  Lima 05:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He really should've proposed the page move here first, before just going off to do it.--KrossTalk 07:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If nobody, even Wild Wolf, objects, I will in a few days' time, move the article to "Maronite Church" Lima 13:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: This phrase needs an additional explanation. For years I have been under impression that there were FOUR original patriarchates (see the article). -Idiotoff 01:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Five original patriarchates 

message: This article suffers from a serious lack of citations; in particular I would like the claims regarding Mamluk and Ottoman ethnic cleansing to either be substantiated or removed.لقمانLuqman 17:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of Citations 

message: I know everyone would rather bicker over whether Maronites are Phoenicians, and whether Phoenicians were black, but I still feel the need to mention that this article would benefit from some photos of contemporary Maronite life, such as  a congregation in queue for communion, or the current Patriarch. 70.22.212.107 21:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures.    

message: In the "History section" there is an anachronism.  The Orthodox church did not exist until at lest 1054AD during the East-West Schism.  The bottom line was that Papal recognition infered recognition by all Christiantiy because the Pope represented Western as well as Eastern Christianity which I thinke is what the author was trying to point out.
"Correspondence concerning the event brought papal and orthodox recognition of the Maronites which was solidified by Pope Hormisdas on February 10, 518."
Today Eastern Christianity in that part of the world is represented by both Greek Catholics in union with with the Pope and preserving their traditions separate from the Latin(Roman) Church, and the Orthodox Church which in essence hold nearly all the same traditions as Greek(Byzantine) Catholic, except that they are not in union with the Pope as they were during the time of Marion in the 6th century. 
This error continues throughout the article
"The chaos and utter depression which followed led the Maronites to elect their first Maronite Patriarch, John Maroun, in 685. This however was seen as a usurpation by both the Orthodox and Catholic rites. "
That last sentence should read "This however was seen as a usurpation by both the Eastern rite church as well as the Latin(Western) rites of the (pre-schism Church). 
Micael 01:47, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need for correction in the History section of this article

message: i have noticed that the headline "Population" is also in the page "Maronite people".
*The articles should be merged. Why should there be a separate article for Maronite people? Funkynusayri 23:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reason I can think of as relevant is the particular treatment of Maronites under the constitution of Lebanon, giving them a particular legal status, identified with but independant of their membership in the Maronite church. oknazevad 22:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Same article, two places???=

message: There are many examples of extreme POV recounting in this article, especially in the section on history. For instance:
Thus, at a time when Islam was rising on the borders of the Byzantine and a united front was necessary to keep out the Islamic infiltration ..
Now in a state of harsh occupation under Arabic rule after the Muslim conquest of Syria, the Maronites relationship with the Byzantine Empire improved. The imperial court seeing its earlier mistake .. 
I might wish for a less POV treatment, but the article, as it stands today, really does do a good job of recounting not just Maronite history, but Maronite sentiment as well. So, perhaps, it should stand as is?
--Philopedia 00:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say go for it if you have some alterations. I think the history section begins a little odd as well "It was in Antioch that" etc., sounds kind of un-encyclopedic. Funkynusayri 09:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistently Heavy Point of View Recounting 

message: In the "History" section it is stated that the Crusader states were "ethnically cleansed". I'm not sure that this is accurate. The Muslims were expelling a European occupation force that had invaded their territory. To say that this expulsion was ethnic cleansing is not accurate. If the author(s) insist that "ethnic cleansing" (which is often code for genocide) did occur there needs to be a citation because that is a very serious charge. This discussion augments the "Consistently Heavy Point of View Recounting" discussion below.
Wikifan79 11:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnic Cleansing

message: This article says that there are between 8 and 9 million Maronites.  While I very much would like for this to be true, I did check the source listed here (cnewa) and they only list uder 4 million.  This is a big difference.  Where are the numbers for the other 4 to 5 million coming from.  The cnewa list the statistics for the entire Maronite Church including their diocese in the Americas.  I just do not see where the numbers came from.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.127.251.137 (talk) 01:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Population Numbers

message: Please don't move the infobox down, they are always top right in Wikipedia articles. Also, it messes up the layout. Funkynusayri (talk) 14:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is titled Maronite Church and so the box on the people itself, goes next to the section of population. See also the article on the Roman Catholic Church, also putting it the way you put it, offsets the entire articles layout, where it pushes the pictures into sections where they're not supposed to be. Thanks. - Gennarous (talk) 14:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But the article is titled the Maronite Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria has that article and then one of Copts, perhaps Maronites need their own breakoff article for the people Maronites rather than just one for both the religious organisation and its people. - Gennarous (talk) 14:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be completely ignorant of the fact that the Maronite Church is a religious organisation in communion with the Catholic Church. Under what basis would we "not need" an article titled Maronite Church for the religion that most Lebonese around the world follow? - Gennarous (talk) 14:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm aware of who the Maronites are, what you don't seem to be able to understand is the Maronite Church (which this article is titled) is a specific religious organisation with a layed out hierarchy, a partiarch Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir and it is in full communion with the Catholic Church, making the Maronite Church highly notable. Look at the articles on other Christian organisations and then see what the standard is. You seem to be confusion articles with an ethnic group title, to articles with a religious organisation title. - Gennarous (talk) 14:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we need to change the title of the page to Maronites. Chaldean (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the majority of the information in this article is of the Maronite people. I think we should first move this article to "Maronites"... and then create "Maronite Church" as a seperate article with some of the information from this one moved into it. They certainly both need their own articles, however small they begin, articles can grow. - Gennarous (talk) 16:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: The population of Maronites in Cyprus according to their official website stands at 6000. Not 16 000. That number is obcenely high. http://www.maronite-heritage.com/html/maronites_of_cyprus.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteMagick (talk • contribs) 17:51, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyprus Population 

message: Does anyone have a source on the claim that Ralph Nader is a Maronite.  It is cool if he is but since any Catholic running for office gets attacked about it I just figured I would have heard something about it.  I tried to look for it myself on the net but haven't found anything.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.13.27.206 (talk) 03:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nader

message: The history section seems to move to the 10th century and flit back to the 6th century. Anyone with some knowledge on the history could tackle this, if deemed necessary. I am also interested in relations between the Maronite Church and the Crusaders who passed by. Was there mutual respect, any doctrinal bullying by the superior force etc or perhaps they were all united in having a perceived common enemy? Any comments by anyone who could shed any light on this would be very much appreciated. --Another berean (talk) 15:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: If anyone has a suggestion for some, put them here. But let's not overdo it, pick the most notable ones, both male and female, so we don't end up with something like this. FunkMonk (talk) 08:06, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable people for infobox? 

message: Christian Lebanese are "Syriac people", other use the word  "Syriac-Maronite" too, booth are right. They are most members of the Syriac Orthodox Church or members of the Syriac Maroite Church, there language i originally "Syriac-Aramaic" this is a dialekt of Aramaic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.195.63.229 (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So what exactly is the definiton of "Syrac people"? FunkMonk (talk) 08:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Lebanese are Syriacs 

message: Arab christians? arabs are MUSLIMS, everyone knows that! and 9 million of them? i think the rest of the arab world wouldve noticed if 9 million arabs converted to christianity…  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.251.26.19 (talk) 23:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't feed the WP:TROLLs! Of course some Arabs are Christians. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 14:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a joke??? 

message: In accordance to other Christian ethno-religious groups in the Middle East and Churches, the article about "Maronite Church" should reflect the faith history and scope, while "Maronites" article should reflect the demographics of Maronite people. Examples: 
:Assyrian people vs Assyrian Church of the East and Chaldean Catholic Church
:Copts vs Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
:Greeks vs Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, Greek Church of Alexandria
:Arameans vs Syrian Orthodox Church and The Jacobite Syrian Church
:Syrian Malabar Nasrani people vs The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and Syrian Churches of Kerala
In the same manner "Maronites" article should be created to reflect demographics, while this article to concentrate on religious aspects.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't big enough to warrant a split. Those examples you posted had to be split due to size. Add to it, then you can split. FunkMonk (talk) 16:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A better example would be Chaldean Church and Chaldean Christians. I support such a split if both articles get extra materials for example a section about Marada and the civil war of 1860 and more information about its dioceses especially its spiritual centre in Qadisha valley. On the other hand the article is tiny compared to the Arabic version.--Rafy talk 12:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article split to "Maronite Church" and "Maronites" 

message: Hello, I am new to wikipedia, but I am a Maronite.  I was reading this page, and saw an incorrect Scripture passage.  Above the population listings, it says:
"The saying "The glory of Lebanon was given to him"(Isaiah 2: 35) has been applied to the Maronite Patriarch."
This is incorrect.  The correct passage is Isaiah 35:2.
I'm not sure how to go in and edit this information myself, so if someone who is a little more wiki-friendly could please do so, thank you.
God bless.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkhael (talk • contribs) 20:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Scriptures 

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thread_title: File:Maroun04.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: The richest person in the world, is a Maronite from Mexico.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.93.16 (talk) 07:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carlos Slim Helu 

message: According to the article, it stated the 9th century. However, the Maronites of Cyprus arrived there in the 7th centry and already had Arabic as their community language (of course, Syriac was the liturgical language). In fact, Cypriot Maronite Arabic is still spoken by Cypriot Maronites. The population itself, according to ethnologue, consists of 6,240 people, of which only 140 (all elderly) can still speak it due to forced community displacement, divided resettlement, and forced adoption of Greek and Turkish.
I have editted the article to say "9th century o earlier" until a source can be found. Al-Andalus 12:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: When exactly did the Arabization occur?

message: A friend of mine mentioned the quality of this page, and specifically referred to the Monothelitism subject. As an outsider with no knowledge of the subject, I must say, there seems to be a lot of recurring statements of this Monothelitism subject throughout the article, even though it's controversial.
The subject is notable. But I feel it is refereed to too many times, and that it's not informing, rather, just trying to push a POV down someone's throat, when it isn't even proven to be completely true or false. 
Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Nomardll769 (talk) 06:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recurring Controversy  

message: "Due to a long-term understanding with their Latin counterparts in North America, Maronite priests in that area are expected to remain celibate." But according to a link off of the website for the Brooklyn eparchy (http://www.stmaron.org/The%20Priests,%20Vocation%20and%20Formation%20by%20Archbishop%20Youssef%20Bechara.pdf) The Maronite Synod of bishops took notice of this situation and a few years back made a decision that will preserve the tradition while taking in consideration the new developments. It decreed that the one who chooses marriage should not be ordained before the age of 35 and after many years of married life during which he had found a suitable source of income for his family and managed his household. 
If this is the current case, it sounds an awful lot like the situation for permanent deacons in the Latin Rite.AloysiusZimmerfloss (talk) 04:22, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Celibacy requirement for priests in North America?

message: I think that we should remove this section 'Identification / definition'. This Phoenician and so on stuff is extremely debatable (and debated, but I won't go into this). Moreover it points to rather aggressive sources (this is always easy to find such 'news' websites spreading all possible opinions). I am neither Maronite nor Lebanese but I used to live in Beirut and know plenty of Maronites which are strong believers and involved in the Church, and at the same time plainly consider themselves as Arabs. I know also plenty who think differently, but this article is about the Maronite Church, not these ever lasting debates. I plan to remove this section and the related sources, just waiting a bit for your opinions.
Mbaudier (talk) 10:42, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Identification / definition

message: Forgive me, but isn't it quite anachronistic to talk about the Maronite Church (as distinct from the Maronite ethnicity) before  John Maroun? Of course the people who became the Maronite Church existed for many centuries before this, but the formation of the Antiochene rite all began with John Maroun did it not? It seem this article has failed to distinguish between Church history and ethnic history. F.Tromble (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maronite Church before John Maroun 

message: This article is saturated in historical revisionism fabricated in the last century (e.g. "monophysites slew 350 monks" - the very idea that the Syriac Orthodox are monophysite and therefore do not believe in Jesus being both fully God and man is revisionism). These "facts" needs to be reviewed and cited to something other than websites that just endlessly cite other websites that ultimately derive their histories from folklore and revisionism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.75 (talk) 04:39, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Revisionism 

message: Moved this from the lede since it wasn't really discussed in the text, and may be more appropriate in the Maronite article rather than the one on the Church.
"The members of the Maronite Church are part of the Lebanese people, who are the present day descendants of the Phoenicians, a Canaanite people. The cultural and linguistic heritage of the Lebanese people is a blend of both indigenous Phoenician elements and the foreign cultures that have come to rule the land and its people over the course of thousands of years. In a 2013 interview the lead investigator, Pierre Zalloua, pointed out that genetic variation preceded religious variation and divisions:"Lebanon already had well-differentiated communities with their own genetic peculiarities, but not significant differences, and religions came as layers of paint on top. There is no distinct pattern that shows that one community carries significantly more Phoenician than another."  A number of Maronite historians assert that their people, along with their non-Christian countrymen, are also the descendants of the Arameans, Ghassanids, Assyrians, and the Mardaites; though they have, over time, developed a distinctive Maronite character, this has not obscured their Antiochene and Syriac Christian origin." Mannanan51 (talk) 03:29, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maronites 

message: Having slogged my way through a large chunk of Moosa's The Maronites in History, I'm forced to agree with his conclusion that most of the stories are just wrong; we really don't know the history of the Maronites. The question is whether Wikipedia should continue to report the founding myths of the group as is (because they are important myths), emphasis they are probably not true, or refuse to mention them. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moosa's critique of ALL the sources!! 

message: This section (like the entire article, unfortunately) has a definitive biased for presenting a narrative in defense of how Maronites are not Latinized. There is an abundance of claims without citations, as well as clearly biased language (e.g. "venerable anaphora of Sharrar;" what makes it factually venerable and the title isn't even officially Sharrar). I initially created it, as well as have edited it from time to time, only to have such edits removed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.195.188.22 (talk) 13:32, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latinization Section Bias 

message: This article is biased in so many ways ... Article titled "Maronite Church" should be used as disambiguation pointing to two different churches: Ancient Maronite Church (that existed originally in middle ages) and Maronite Catholic Church (that exists since early modern times to the present day). This article is written from the perspective of Maronite Catholic Church and therefore is obviously biased. For example, one of the main issue is not even mentioned: for centuries (13th-18th) Ancient Maronites resisted the attempts of Roman Catholic Church to force them into accepting the Filioque interpolation and doctrine of double procession of the Holy Spirit. Numerous papal decrees have been issued demanding from Ancient Maronites to accept Filioquism. Why is this article treating that issue with silence? There are many scholarly works and discussions on the question of introducing Filioque and other foreign doctrines and practices among Maronites. In spite of all that, some modern Catholic Maronites are still avoiding to acknowledge the fact that Ancient Maronites were not Filioquists and the present state of this article reflects such biased views. Therefore, Wikipedia should have a separate article on Ancient Maronite Church, simply because IT EXISTED in history, and it is not the same as modern Maronite Catholic Church. Sorabino (talk) 17:04, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maronites and the Filioque 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Catholic Church)#RfC: should this page be made a naming convention that may be of interest. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:51, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic Church naming conventions RfC 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Are there any other small churches claiming descent from Maroun? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 14:20, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other churches. 

message: What was the reason for the revert at ?  It looks like it's a legitimate attempt to add Wayback Machine (not some weird service) archive links to references.  Granted, some aren't dead (yet), but considering the speed with which some web pages disappear, it seems reasonable to have archive links available. --Closeapple (talk) 04:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, adding archives may be a reasonable course of action, but adding archives to every link is usually counter-productive. It makes the text more difficult to edit, and it drowns links that do need an archive in a sea of links that do not. My edit here was part of a series of undoing a series of actions by  facilitated by an automated tool. After I explained my rationale, he agreed. I have no opinion on which particular links in this article would need an archive, and I do not intend to further intervene. — JFG talk 06:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted archive links 

message: Hello, I needed to remove some of the foreign-language translations here, because they have been changed and nobody changing or adding them has provided a reliable secondary source that we can verify their accuracy. When adding translations, please provide a citation to a reliable source. Elizium23 (talk) 07:58, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foreign languages removed: unsourced