Talk:Apostasy in Judaism

message: The article is baseless intolerance because it narrowly defines the definition of a Jew to one who practices Judaism (presumably Orthodoxy) and ascribes a pejorative term (Apostate) to that individual who doesn't meet the narrow definition.   Unlike a Christian who can in fact become a non-Christian (an Apostate if you will), a Jew who ceases to practices Judaism (e.g. an Agnostic) is still a Jew although they might considered to be non-observant by observant Jews depending on the background of the particular Jew making the observation.  If the author wishes to retain the article, than the definition of a Jewish Apostate should simply be one who claims to longer be a Jew.  If the author wishes to state that according to a particular sect of Judaism (e.g. Orthodox), an apostate is..., that's fine assuming the author has an appropriate citation to make the claim.
*Hi, Firstly, why have you not signed your named with the four tildes ~~~~ which will automatically produce your user name? Secondly, while your reaction is understandable, nevertheless Judaism itself does contain within itself an internal set rules that have been in effect for thousands of years that do define the nature of any of its adherents' abandonment of Judaism itself. Thus historically, there have always been and still are Jews, who, because of certain factors have either placed themselves or have been place into the classic status of being "apostates" (apikursim, minim, kofrim etc) these facts of Jewish history cannot be ignored. Finally, yes, according to Orthodoxy the term "apostate" has more potency and meaning, but even if the term is relegated only to the Orthodox domain, it is still a very important notion. IZAK 18:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Apostasy Nonsense

message: ...is not a reliable source. The bias is just as apparent as in CE 1913 and Britannica 1911. There's no way we can base an entire article on this "source" of outdated scholarship. If additional sources are not provided to expand the article fairly soon this may as well be merged into Apostasy. Moreschi  If you've written a quality article... 17:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Older articles do have to be read carefully, but age alone does not make a source outdated or unreliable. If you have more recent articles that update the historical work upon which the JE article is based, by all means update the content of this article and add footnotes.  Egfrank (talk) 05:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fully agree with Egrank, just because its old does not mean its not a reliable source.  JE was written by people, while not particularly observant, were recognized as academic scholars in the field. Epson291 (talk) 05:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The [[Jewish Encyclopedia]] 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
====Support====
* Support as nominator. Epson291 (talk) 05:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: The Greek is somewhat irrelevant to the task at hand, but Apostasty means "renunciation of a religious faith" in English, and this article is talking about  "renunciation of a religious faith" in a particular religion, which in this case, is Judiasm. Epson291 (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And I want to point out this article was moved to its current location yesterday (from Jews in apostasy without so much as discussion here. Epson291 (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: * Support as nominator. Epson291 (talk) 05:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: The current title is the one that is grammatically correct.  Apostasy (apo + histanai=stand away) is always a defection from something, hence "apostasy from Islam", "apostasy from Christianity", "apostasy from Judaism", "apostasy from Torah", etc.  If other titles use "Apostasy in ..." they need to be changed. Egfrank (talk) 05:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: The Greek is somewhat irrelevant to the task at hand, but Apostasty means "renunciation of a religious faith" in English, and this article is talking about  "renunciation of a religious faith" in a particular religion, which in this case, is Judiasm. Epson291 (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And I want to point out this article was moved to its current location yesterday (from Jews in apostasy without so much as discussion here. Epson291 (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: After describing the forced conversion of Iberian Jews, the article has the following sentence:
:The apostasy of these conversos provoked the indignation of the Jewish communities in Spain.
Epson291 added a reference that seems to say the exact opposite of what the article does.
The history book in question, by Salo Baron, says that rabbis publicized two letters from abroad "demanding severe punishment for any Jew reminding a repentant converso of his former transgressions and calling him a 'renegade.'" Baron also says that such behavior had previously been outlawed in the 10th century, and that the Jews of Candia enacted a similar rule in their own name.
To me, what this says is that Jews recognized that some of their fellow Jews had to convert to save their lives, but if they returned to Judaism when the danger had passed, they were never to be reminded of their conversion. That is the complete opposite of "indignation" over "apostasy" — that phrase would suggest that Jews were outraged that their fellow Jews had betrayed them by converting to save their own lives, when Baron shows that the opposite is true.
Despite the brevity of his Wikipedia article, Baron was one of the most pre-eminent Jewish historians. Unless somebody can find another source that suggests that Jews in Spain were indignant that their fellow Jews had become "apostates" by converting under force, or if somebody can reconcile the sentence in the article with Baron's history, I think I'm going to delete the sentence from the article. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 09:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have modified the statement consistent with the source, the use of epithets by Jews towards conversos was the reason for these demands. Epson291 (talk) 03:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The apostasy of these ''conversos'' provoked the indignation of the Jewish communities in Spain. 

message: I have cleaned up the very minor edits this article required, and have removed the notice
Chasnor15 (talk) 10:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: clean up

message: Isn't it out of place? This article is about a group of religious practices and attitudes, not about perceived abuses or controversions potentially resulting from them. There isn't even a 'Controversies' or 'Criticism' section, where it would be more understandable. 37.190.158.177 (talk) 13:48, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Criticism of Religion" template was probably added because it includes a link to Apostasy. Be bold and remove it if you don't think it belongs here. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:44, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 'Criticism of religion' frame 

message: I changed the reference their to the one in Exodus which refers to apostasy.  the previous reference was in reference to an ENTICEMENT to apostasy, not apostasy itself. Allonyoav (talk) 07:41, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing "In the bible section"