Talk:Dura, Hebron

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101210081942/http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_PCBS/Downloads/book1487.pdf to http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_PCBS/Downloads/book1487.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hmm, I am not very happy with seeing LaMar C. Berrett used extensively in the article...he basically just use the Bible as it is a proven history. I suggest we take it out, possibly put it into the Adurim article, Huldra (talk) 23:16, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have moved the more speculative stuff to the Adurim article, Huldra (talk) 20:41, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I returned the article to the older version, because I think that the newer version leaves out important context. A possible compromise solution would be to edit the portions of the text that you have a problem with to be more encyclopedia like. However, the link between the two places, whether based on archeology or popular conception, is noteworthy. OtterAM (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You are now inserting your religious myths into an article as if they were historical facts. I consider this quite outrageous. (AFAIK, there is considerable discussion among archeologist if people like Rehoboam, Solomon, David or Noah actually ever existed....). Huldra (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

text: I've fixed it. Berrett's minisacule snippet, aside from her weak qualifications, is not necessary. One thing to clarify is where Jewish tradition set Noah's burial.Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Nishidani..Thanks, btw LaMar C. Berrett was male, and reference no. 9 doesnt look too good? Huldra (talk) 21:15, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Gender confusion is now normative these days! I've castrated the other berrett ref with a further surgical strike, having overlooked it last night. :) Nishidani (talk) 08:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[LaMar C. Berrett]] 

message: Presently, we have in the article:
"Mukaddasi, writing around  985 CE, noted that Dura was famous for its vineyards and a type of raisin called Duri. The city locality is in the Vale of Mamre mentioned in the story of The Twelve Spies who brought back to Moses large grapes of Eshkol as recorded in the Book of Numbers."(Mukaddasi, 1895, p. 69)
Alas, Mukaddasi only wrote that Dura was celebrated for its raisins...the rest is commentary from the translator, Guy Le Strange. Now it is all sourced to Mukaddasi, and not to le Strange. (And who the heck said we should include every speculation which were made by the Victorians in the late  1800??) Huldra (talk) 21:26, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Mukaddasi goes so far as to mention the "types" of raisins that are found in Palestine, the two most prized being ʿAinūnī and Dūrī, both named after their places of origin. What is the problem, Huldra? There is no "falsification," but rather two independent statements. I will try to cite the source for the first statement.Davidbena (talk) 15:05, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made a slight revision in the text, to make it more conform with what is actually written in Mukaddasi's work, A Description of Syria (Including Palestine).Davidbena (talk) 15:28, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, it is still a falsification. The sentence "The city locality is in the Vale of Mamre mentioned in the story of The Twelve Spies who brought back to Moses large grapes of Eshkol as recorded in the Book of Numbers" is sources to  Mukaddasi....when  Mukaddasi wrote no such thing. His translator, Guy Le Strange added that. Huldra (talk) 20:06, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know who wrote this second clause in this Wikipedia article. If Strange says it, it should be cited in his name. Otherwise, to reject it without premise would border on your own WP:OR. If Strange does not say anything of the kind, feel free to delete the second clause.Davidbena (talk) 21:50, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is obviously not Mukaddasi who wrote the second sentence...as there is no mention that he had any specific knowledge about Christianity or Judaism (except for Christian and Jewish figures which also appear in Islam, of course). Also, in the "Palestine under the Muslims", p. 16 the same part about the Dura raisins is mentioned...without anything about the  The Twelve Spies etc. Again, I assume that part if from  Guy Le Strange. And I cannot see that WP:OR is  relevant here...is is WP:DUE which should count here, Huldra (talk) 22:06, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess if the text is attributed to Guy Le Strange, there is no danger of falsification then. Infinity Knight (talk) 10:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Right,...except it belongs in the Adurim article, not in this one, Huldra (talk) 21:12, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falsification