Talk:Richard III (play)

message: Is "Life and death of King Richard III" its complete title? --Menchi 03:03, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't know what Shakespeare titled it or how his company advertised it when they originally staged it.  Printers added all sorts of verbiage to the titles of plays when the published them.  It's safe to say that plays really didn't have fixed titles.76.236.153.232 (talk) 10:35, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  full title?

message: Is the word "eulogising" correct in there? Methinks it should be "praising", as the alluded person is alive... elpincha 22:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if it is correct, Elpincha, you have the right to change it if you prefer different wording.  That's what this place is all about. Deb 22:40, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was asking because I am not 100% sure. Some people here have English degrees... not me... elpincha 10:23, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Now is the winter...

message: Early in the synopsis section is the phrase, "With little attempt at chronological accuracy (which he professes to despise.)" The "who" is ambiguous. Does Richard despise accuracy or Shakespeare? --Amanaplanacanalpanama 02:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  clarification 

message: It seems like this sentence "The play is sometimes interpreted as a tragedy (as it is called in its earliest quarto); however, it more correctly belongs among the histories, as it is does in the First Folio." might have a POV issue. The emphasis is mine. Unless scholarly debate is closed on the issue, stating where it belongs seems to be adhering to a certain POV. I would like to change the second half of the sentence to something like "however, it is more often labeled a history (as is the case in the First Folio)." However, I have no citation stating that such is the case. So the best I can probably do is "The play is sometimes interpreted as a tragedy (as it is called in its earliest quarto), and sometimes as a history (as is the case in the First Folio). It is a brilliant written play, and is great to wathc at the theatres! i advise you to watch it if you are studying it for SATs."
The sentence immediately proceeding this one may also be statement of POV. "It is a Shakespearean attempt to adapt history into theatre."
Thoughts? - ACodispo 03:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree that the sentence "It is a Shakespearean attempt to adapt history into theatre" is unhelpful.  The categorization of Shakespearean plays into "histories" and "tragedies" is fairly well defined, though, I'd have thought.  It's not a question of whether the history is accurate; none of his "history" plays are. Deb 17:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: regardless - in keeping with numerous discussions on these and other pages, we have adopted the First Folio classifications thru-out.  If you want to change that, please build a consensus at the Shakespeare project page.  Until then, I am reverting the change. (First Folio is certainly a contemporary document - quibbling over the authors date of death aside.)  An equally silly quibble would be that Shakespeare's name isn't even ON the quarto! Heck - why not get into who might have actually wrote these works....but I digress... :) Smatprt (talk) 20:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Seriously - I  am just asking you to do your homework better.  This has been well discussed and is currently outlined on the Shakespeare project page.  Howeer, I think you are also being disingenuous in that you attacked the log, but took it out of context.  The log starts with "We follow the First Folio classifications here" , then went on to explain that a few reasons.  You ignored the first sentence and attacked the second. I don't know if it's just stubbornness or ownership issues that are in play, but I think you know darn well that the Folio classifications are, by consensus, the ones being used on these pages.  Another point regarding the FF - it clearly states that it has corrected and augmented earlier versions, which it labeled as stolen and/or surreptitious versions. I think the editors of the Sh project are simply taking the FF at its word.  So - again - if you want to change the consensus, feel free, but until you do, the FF classifications should stay. Smatprt (talk) 20:27, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks but I was already familiar with these images.  Clearly the wording "Tragedy" is part of the title shown, and just as clearly, the play is classified as a history. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, it is the classifications that we have standardized to, and built a consensus for - a point you continue to ignore. Now, if you know anything about WP it's that consensus is the ultimate deciding factor.  So, as I keep saying, and as you keep ignoring, simply build a new consensus and you will get no argument from me. (Personally, I believe that the FF is full of misstatements and was more of a marketing tool for the profitable Shakespeare corporation of the early 1600's - but it's not what I (or you) believe that is important, it's what the consensus of editors decides. Dems da rules.) :) Smatprt (talk) 02:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: No idea, I just know it's been discussed on numerous occasions - check the archives, perhaps.  Also the talk pages of the plays themselves.  Finally, check with editor AndyJones, as I am pretty sure he has been in on several of these discussions. In the meantime, why don't you just post the debate on the project talk page and get some dialogue going.  It's a good question. (Although I disagree about content disputes not being decided by consensus. I've seen it too many times as the ultimate deciding factor). Moving on now :) Smatprt (talk) 03:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tragedy or history sentences... 

message: Before attempting to move an article as heavily-edited as this one, please go through the Wikipedia:Requested moves procedure (and also check the article naming conventions!). Deb 22:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article moves

message: I removed this text from the article, since most of the information belongs on a page for R.D. McLean (if verified).
R.D. McLean, noted American Shakespearean actor whose real name was R.D. Shepherd and who left Shepherdstown WV in 1911 to pursue a career in the theater in Hollywood, CA, portrayed King Richard III at the Westwood, CA, Theater in 1925. 
Dylan Thurston 04:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think maybe you could have left the image and the name and date of the actor -- since the article includes stuff about other actors. Deb 12:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  R.D. McLean 

message: Honestly isn't a spoiler warning for Richard III a bit odd?
:Richard III is a work of fiction.  There are millions of people in the world who don't know the ending. Deb 11:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which encylopedia were you reading, that had spoiler warnings on other articles but not Shakespeare's? AndyJones 20:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: We certainly shouldn't place these unnecessary warnings on the article, and especially not directly following a heading that clearly says "Synopsis", "Plot", or something else that tells the reader that the plot is about to be discussed.  If for no other reason, then because it would be redundant, and insults the intelligence of the reader. --Tony Sidaway 21:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Spoiler warnings have now been discontinued from Wikipedia--TimothyJacobson (talk) 02:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler Warning?

message: I had not even started reading the article when I noticed the Characters section rudely interrupted the article. Surely this list can be relegated to the end of the article or it can be made into less of a tedious list? Perhaps if it were restructured, the list might observe the niceties expected by readers (division into major and minor characters, for example). RedRabbit1983 16:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea.  Why not do it? Deb 16:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is beyond my capacity. I prefer just to complain. RedRabbit1983 16:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I changed my mind. RedRabbit1983 16:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure

message: I deleted useless sections. Don't worry: no one will notice they're gone. RedRabbit1983 17:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No offence, but the fact that a Shakespeare project exists does not obviate the need to make the article readable, nor does it have any status in terms of forcing editors to comply with a given format. Deb 11:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No offence taken and no one is suggesting that any group can force (or enforce) anything. I hope you join the discussions at the project page simply to avoid having the same discussion on numerous pages. Smatprt 16:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: No, but one would hope that editors would take their ideas and concerns there so we can improve the outline.  As of yet it's still in the works. Wrad 11:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I suggest removing Cultural References from the outline so that we are not forced to endure it here. RedRabbit1983 14:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the best things about the project is the ability to discuss changes and formats that will work for all of the Sh plays. Can we move this discussion there and consider RedRabbit's proposal to delete all cultural references? i think we'd all rather have 1 good discussion instead of 37 individual ones. Smatprt 16:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I noted that the cultural references section is uncited, so I have added citation tags.  Naturally, on a list of individual unrelated things, it is necessary to have citations on each one; it is very easy for rumors, misinterpretations, and so forth to slip in. --Aquillion (talk) 11:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed most of these tags where you are disputing a fact that can only be verified by seeing the primary source, and cannot be proved by a third party citation. Either the stated usages are true or they are not true. To challenge them you merely need to either remove them straight away and see if they are re-added, or request clarification here, or go and check for yourself. Tagging is pointless for these cases. I have left some where additional info would be helpful, such as an episode title or some other clarification. MickMacNee (talk) 12:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions

message: I would like to point out that Shakespeare originally intended the play to be a sequel to the Henry VI trilogy and expected the audience to know who Queen Margaret was, why Elizabeth was unpopular, and what everybody's prior criminal record was.  That's not true for modern audiences, so the play needs to be edited to make some of the background clearer in performance, either by cutting backwards references or incorporating scenes from the trilogy. Thus McLellan's "Fascist 30s version" shows the murders of Herny VI and his son (from the end of the trilogy), and many versions leave out Queen Margeret's scenes.  The famous ad-lib "Off with his head-- so much for Buckingham!" was intended to replace a long speech about Buckingham's guilt in the earlier plays.  It's not just because of length that the play gets cut in performance.
CharlesTheBold 22:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good.  Why not add this to the article? Deb 12:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  why the play is cut 

message: :Image:Richardthird.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 04:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Richardthird.jpg

message: I deleted the suggestion that Samuel Daniel's _The Civil Wars_ might have been a source for R3; Daniel's poem wasn't published until 1595--too late to be a source for the play.  Daniel is usually regarded as a possible source for Shakespeare's later history plays.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.212.61.73 (talk) 03:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samuel Daniel as Source?

message: Language plays a large part in Richard III, as it does in many of William Shakespeare’s plays. What, really? Language, eh! Who'd have thought that about a work of literature? Language plays a large part. Wow! Isn't that a bit like saying wood plays a large part in oak trees? Or that water plays a large part in oceans? What else are Shakespeare's plays made of, except language? I particularly love the idea that language plays a large part in "many" of Shakespeare's plays. Which are the exceptions? Which are the plays of Shakespeare in which language does not play a large part? Did he write anything for mime artists or for the silent screen? Language, oi! 
Joking aside, is there something meaningful in this sentence that I'm missing? I've no criticism of the recent grammatical correction, but a grammatically correct vacuous sentence is still vacuous. Is there any reason I can't remove it? AndyJones (talk) 12:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Language is not language which alters when it alteration finds... Wrad (talk) 18:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language plays a large part in ''Richard III'', as it does in many of William Shakespeare’s plays.  

message: Am I right in thinking this piece has more characters than any other Shakespeare play? TimothyJacobson (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characters 

message: "only Clarence and Richard III die on-stage".  I disagree with this statement.  Clarence's actual death happens offstage--TimothyJacobson (talk) 02:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarence 

message: Should it be made clear on the character lists which characters appear (and in some cases, only appear) as ghosts? --TimothyJacobson (talk) 02:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ghosts 

message: "After Hamlet, it is the second longest play".  Is this phrase tautologous.  I believe the word "second" is un-necessary.  Unless I hear otherwise by the end of next week, I'll remove that word.  (Likewise, if I don't hear otherwise, I will remove the phrase about Clarence dying onstage; see above)--TimothyJacobson (talk) 03:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with both your suggestions. Deb (talk) 12:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks Deb.  I've now made the amendments. --TimothyJacobson (talk) 14:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tautologous

message: The anonymous play The True Tragedy of Richard III and its relation to Richard III might merit a few sentences in the Sources section. BuddingJournalist 21:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The True Tragedy of Richard III 

message: The caption just says that "many key scenes" are depicted. Can someone identify what those scenes are? I was planning to put this as POTD soon and it would nice to have some details. Thanks. howcheng  {chat} 18:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Thomas Keene in Richard III 1884 Poster.png]] 

message: Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that :File:Thomas Keene in Richard III 1884 Poster.png will be appearing as picture of the day on August 7, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-08-07. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng  {chat} 17:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Thomas Keene in Richard III 1884 Poster.png]] to appear as POTD soon 

message: One character in George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire is an obvious (more benevolent) version of King Richard. He's called Tyrion Lannister.
Maybe a new section after the movies section?
188.174.198.210 (talk) 21:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's trivia, really, isn't it? Deb (talk) 12:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Literary Characters that resemble Richard III.

message: We should always bear in mind, when reading SHAKESPEARE's play's that he is mentioning historical figures but is not being true to history.   Reichsmarschal GOERING said it so well when answering his indictment at the Nuremberg Trials that the winners will always be the judges and the vanquished the accused.
SHAKESPEARE can best be described, in my opinion, as a TUDOR boot licker.   
Richard,Duke of GLOUCESTER, later King Richard III { 1483-85 }, was a capable and loyal administrator and soldier for his brother King Edward IV { 1461 - 83 } and no hunchback tyrant.  He and his brother, George, Duke of CLARENCE, married sisters, Ann and Isobel, daughters of their cousin Richard NEVILLE, Earl of WARWICK and Richard and Ann deeply loved each other, unlike as depicted in the play where she despises him.   Richard was distraught when Ann died of Consumption, the same disease that also killed Isobel. 
Richard's and Ann's son, Edward, pre-deceased them, thus leaving Richard with no direct heir. 
The main point of my writing is to correct the error that Elizabeth of YORK, daughter of Edward IV, was Queen Consort to Richard.  She was not. It was suggested to Richard that he marry his niece after Ann died so to take her out of the reach of Henry TUDOR, the future Henry VII, who swore to marry her to back his pretensions to the crown.   Richard did not entertain the ideas however and Elizabeth did become TUDOR's Queen. 
Roger DESHON, Toowoomba, Queensland, AUSTRALIA    Insidivs Fvngvs (talk) 22:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted!  Looks like this error was introduced by User:Bertaut when he redid the character list in April.  I've now fixed it. Deb (talk) 11:52, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  the play of  Richard 111  

message: Can anyone refer me to anywhere in the text of the play that Richard is referred to as a hunchback?  So far I have found 
:bunchback'd
:lump of foul deformity
:Deformed
:Unfinish’d
:rudely stamp'd
but not hunchback. Deb (talk) 13:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This edition calls him a "bunch-backed toad", but this source quotes "hunch-backed toad". It may be that the explanation is in this source, which says "hunched-backed" is in the Second quarto but "bunch-backed" in the First Folio. DeCausa (talk) 14:06, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've put something into the main Richard III article to (I trust) reflect that information.  In due course I can see us having to give this article an overhaul as well Deb (talk) 21:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Hunchback

message: The page currently states:
:The pursuivant is identified as Hastings only in the quartos; in the Folio text he is referred to as "sirrah".
But in my text, the Pursuivant and Hastings have dialogue together. What am I missing?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:67C:2874:10:A534:BE30:42C5:407B (talk) 09:32, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hastings / pursuivant 

message: 'And soon ... Benedict Cummerbach...' needs updating/having definite dates added. Jackiespeel (talk) 09:03, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Television

message: While I suppose it's allright for these items to be an incoherent ragbag rather than ordered encyclopedic text, why can they not at the very least be in chronological order? --Clifford Mill (talk) 11:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adaptations and cultural references 

message: If you look at the first folio it says 'son'. When I edited the page to this effect it was changed back to 'sun'. I'm fairly new to this so go easy.
Hawthornbush (talk) 21:05, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are right. Apparently, the First Folio prints the phrase as "son of Yorke", and the earlier First Quarto has "sonne of Yorke." I don't think the spelling "sun of York" appeared until the much later (Nicholas Rowe) edition in 1709? Personally I think the pun works either way round. But which edition are we supposed to use? Surely, the quote given in the article should have a source. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:33, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a question of "what Shakespeare wrote", because he didn't publish it himself.  The people who edited it for printing were presumably going on what they heard actors say on stage, therefore there is no correct answer to this. Deb (talk) 09:23, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The play was written before the establishment of standardized spelling, in those days people merely spelled words as they thought they sounded therefore "sonne" could mean could just as easily mean a male child (son) or the celestial orb (sun). Reading the full passage in context with the various references to summer, winter, and clouds is seems clear that Shakespeare's intent was that the literal spoken meaning here is "sun", and the veiled entendre of the pun is "son". Therefor the literal spelling is the appropriate one in written text using modern spelling. This has been the consensus of scholars for centuries. Mediatech492 (talk) 18:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  A convincing argument. A similar pun appears in Act I, Scene 2 of Hamlet: "Not so, my lord; I am too much i' the sun." But I still think a source text should be given here. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:22, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - a source would prevent future edit-warring. Deb (talk) 10:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

text: No - but a lot of it did.  Did you see this recent TV documentary? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04gv5zy Unfortunately not available any more, but the page gives a bit of background info. Deb (talk) 09:51, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Didn't Shakespeare write 'son((ne) of York' rather than 'sun of York' 

message: The widely circulating "Now is the discount of our winter tents" is missing at Richard III (play)#"Winter of our discontent" quote. It's certainly more notable than the Family Guy or Red Dwarf episodes. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:26, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What's that?  An advert or something? Deb (talk) 21:52, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: e.g. ., . So kind of an advertisement. Or possibly a cultural alignment of the planets in terms of popular trivia. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:12, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Discount tents

message: The newly added image :File:RichardIII.png is described at the upload page as " Illustration for Richard III by William Shakespeare" and "own work" from "January 2005". Why is this notable? It seems to be just someone's own personal idea of what some kind of abstract advertising poster, for a production that's not clearly set in any given period, might look like. Shouldn't we stick with actual commercial posters which have a sourced connection with well-known productions? There is summary of where this has come from. There is no more at Commons. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Which production did this advertise? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Freellance has kindly now added "2005 production ... at The Cassius Carter Centre Stage in San Diego, CA." I wonder is there any source for that? If so, it might usefully be added in the caption, and/or at the Discussion Page or Description for the image at :File:RichardIII.png. I'm guessing this was the original artwork, as it has no production details on it, perhaps for copyright reasons. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illustration