Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 11

message: Is it just me or are the repeated attempts to insert information about an American retail store removing Guevara's image from some product or other of marginal relevance to this article? I understand that many editors are from the United States, but - as I have written often on these pages - these additions give the rest of us the impression that we are sleeping with the elephant. Meaning that minor twitches in one corner of the world are magnified well out of proportion. As this "factoid" is of little interest to me, or I imagine the vast majority of people in the world who also know or care very little about American retail habits, perhaps these references are better suited to the Che Guevara in popular culture page.--Zleitzen 12:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't see any record of repeated attempts in the talk pages, but if there's been an edit war going on here, just let me know. I'm anxious to open discussion about it mostly because it is directly tied  into (and even contradicts) the material in that section of the article. The Che Gueveara in popular culture article isn't really appropriate since it doesn't really discuss the implications of any of the appearances and is really just more of a listing of places his name has appeared. I'll agree that the factoid is American-centric, but I don't know how much of the global Che Guevara cult is truly global. It certainly has a large presence in the US. I'm not going to fight for its inclusion, but I was shocked to see that the page didn't mention it. Mikeliveshere 12:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The info had been added 2-3 times before to the article and removed. I would summize that the Guevara legacy is indeed global, and is perhaps at its least potent in the United States for obvious reasons (it was operatives representing the government of that nation that hunted him down}. Within the third world, and especially Latin America, Guevara's political focus is very much alive and contemporary, independent of the opinions of a few Western leftists. One of the reasons I am reticent about the new information is that this truth, Guevara's almost universal popularity in the world outside the US, is barely reflected at all, which places the actions of a US retail store in sharp perspective. Sometimes it seems to me as though we are editing articles about the Dali Llama on the Chinese wikipedia. --Zleitzen 14:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just curious, how would you feel about its inclusion in Che Guevara (photo). I think it's important to talk about the current perception of Che and that this is a good case study of that in America, but I agree that it is only tangentially related to Che and his politics, which means it could be inappropriate for a page that deals mostly with his history. Mikeliveshere 00:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Target

message: It would seem to me that Guevara's tactics were faulty and failed  (thank G-d) for a number of reasons that include: (1) once it was clear that if the military  of each country surrendered as in Cuba they would be executed, thus these militaries fought to the death; (2) Guevara despised and ignored the need for supporting militia (e.g. Escopeteros; (3) the preparation of his guerrillas in Cuba was often faulty (e.g. indigenous languages chosen were often incorrect for the area of action); (4) the personnel chosen were often ("White") or at least not indigenous to the area  of action; (5) weapons and tactics of his opponents changed and improved, especially due to the Vietnam experience and above all his ideology of hate, his insistence on rigid ideological "purity" and a propensity to attempt to solve all problems through executions was alien to Latin American traditions.  Documentation of this will follow in the next few days.  El Jigue 12-28-06
Z:
One of the best references on the bloody failure of the Guevaran approach to guerrilla warfare in Guatemala is:
Le Bot, Yvon 1997 La guerra en tierras mayas (War in Mayan Lands). Fondo de Cultura Económica, Mexico D.F ISBN-10 9681645375, ISBN-13 978-9681645373
or if you prefer it in French:
Lebot, Yvon 1992 La guerre en terre maya: Communauté, violence et modernité au Guatemala, 1970-1992  Editions Karthala. Paris ISBN-10 286537369X, ISBN-13 978-2865373697 
Although this book gives too much credence to Rigoberta Menchú at the time it was written Menchú's little changes to history were not well known.
El Jigue 1-2-07
::Terribly one-sided, as always. Oh, and for your information: I've checked that title with my professors (I am a student of history, Leiden University, Holland), and the author is noted for doing a horribly unprofessional job in that 'work'. Kindly come up with a better example of your slanted views. 82.176.211.33 21:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guevara's Tactics 

message: I posted a few sentences that mentioned Guevara's actions at La Cabana prison and the fact that he created Cuba's prison camps. I also cited an external source. This seems much better than the current statement that he was appointed to various posts in the Cuban government. The current version makes it seem like he was just some innocent bureaucrat.
I don't see why someone deleted my changes, unless you are determined to preserve the hero-worship flavor of the current article.
~Mike W.
::I can't see anywhere in the history of the article where you edited it under your IP number which is how you are currently editing. Perhaps it was not this article. I urge you to get an account which gives you easy access to history and  a watchlist.--Dakota 14:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And that, is a shame. Che Guevara, has faults like anyone else. If backed by excellent sources? 'negative' findings, do indeed belong on this article. GoodDay 21:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While Ché was "responsible" for every trial that occurred in La Cabaña (as every case had to be aproved by him), much of the information regarding it has been wildly exagerated (by several sources, but Ché was mainly demonized by cuban exiles, at least back in the day, even to ridiculous levels, some were exagerations while other down right fabrications), first he did not conducted any trial or execution himself nor were civilians ever executed there (of the two trial houses, house 1 was for militars and police members and executed several of them, the second one was for civilians and it didnt executed any of them). Such events were compared to the trials of Nuremberg by Castro himself when he recieved criticism regarding the executions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.28.199.74 (talk) 05:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It may not always be the case, but the vast majority of the "sources" attached to such comments which other editors have deleted come from decisively anti-cuban and anti-communist webistes who in turn have not provided any sources for their articles. In which case they are far from "excellent sources" and fall foul of the Wikipedia verifiable sources policy. Such comments should be quite rightly deleted unless a verifiable source can be obtained. Canderra 18:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the term anti-Cuban is pretty self-obvious. I never said anything at all to imply being anti-communist was a crime either. It is obviously proof of bias though! Any research done by anti-communist groups should be subject to the same extra levels of scrutiny as that done by pro-communist groups as both are likely to have attempted to 'twist' the facts. Canderra 02:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I see you point that if taken literally the term doesn't quite make sense however it is a common convention to refer to a distinctive regime by the name of the nation. Canderra 18:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why so little mention of Guevara's bad side? 

message: There are six paragraphs about Guevara "disappearing".  This may have made sense in 1965 as it was a secret then, well, it wasn't really, as said later on - "Despite the fact that Guevara sought to conceal his presence in the Congo, the U.S. government was fully aware of his location and activities: The National Security Agency (NSA) was intercepting all of his incoming and outgoing transmissions via equipment aboard the USNS Valdez, a floating listening post which continuously cruised the Indian Ocean off Dar-es-Salaam for that purpose."  The US knew exactly where Guevara was, but that certainly didn't stop Voice of America etc. from spreading rumors that Guevara was jailed by Castro, there was a split in the Cuban leadership etc. Six paragraphs of uncited rumor from decades ago, which has been shown to be baseless conjecture doesn't warrant being in here.  Even if it wasn't cited.   "Castro's critics sometimes say his explanations for Guevara's disappearance have always been suspect (see below), and many found it surprising that Guevara never announced his intentions publicly, but only through an undated and uncharacteristically obsequious letter to Castro."  Guevara announced his intentions not to remain in Cuba before he even landed in Cuba, this sort of thing is quite silly.  Ruy Lopez 07:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disappearance from Cuba section 

message: "Che" is not spelled chê or ché in Portuguese, but as tchê, and only like that. I know it because I'm from southern Brazil and use the expression frequently. The old text and the new one are down here.
"It was during this period that he acquired his famous nickname, "Che", due to his frequent use of the Argentine interjection Che (pronounced ), which is used in much the same way as "hey", "pal", "eh", or "mate" are employed colloquially in various English-speaking countries. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Brazil (where the interjection is rendered 'chê' or 'ché' in written Portuguese) are the only areas where this expression is used, making it a trademark of the Rioplatense region".
"It was during this period that he acquired his famous nickname, "Che", due to his frequent use of the Argentine interjection Che (pronounced ), which is used in much the same way as "hey", "pal", "eh", or "mate" are employed colloquially in various English-speaking countries. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Brazil (where the interjection is rendered 'tchê' in written Portuguese) are the only areas where this expression is used, making it a trademark of the Rioplatense region".
MBhvilar 12:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you have a repeat of your posting? GoodDay 21:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor change in the spelling of 'che' 

message: Editors keep adding the category "humanitarian" to this article. I've removed it once, perhaps other users could better explain why this isn't really appropriate. Indeed Guevara went to work in a leper colony in his younger days, but by the early 60s he had been responsible for making various calls which accelerated near nuclear war, insulted and abused many of his subordinates, personally shot people in the head etc. He was been described as arrogant, brutal and overly aggressive even by his closest confidants. We're not talking about Mother Theresa here. --Zleitzen 17:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Humanitarian

message: On January 16, 2007 anon user 200.28.199.74 removed the section Why is this guy so beloved? on this talk page. Though his methods may have been good-intentioned (and possible correct), should an anon-user have the right to remove other editors postings? GoodDay 00:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite sure what you're saying? Little Joe. GoodDay 18:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The Removing Posts section hasn't been 'erased' (obviously), the Why is this guy so Beloved section was 'erased' on January 16th, 2007 (see 'histoy' of this 'talk page'). My point was & is, should any editors have the right to remove other editors postings. Yes or No. GoodDay 21:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The answer is 'NO'. I've givin' advice to that anon-user (200.28.199.74), not to remove posts again. GoodDay 21:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Not entirely sure what you've said. Contact the anon-user, give him you views. GoodDay 18:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing Posts

message: There is an academic reference at  which supports at least in part what I stated previously about the Che's purges in the Sierra. El Jigue 1-21-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 01:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read Julia Sweig's book and used it as a reference before, EJ. I highly recommend it if you haven’t seen it, as it covers a lot of the Frank País arena. Though I don't remember reading anything about Guevara murdering the non-ideological in the Sierra, nor does she detail any of the rumors you have discussed concerning País's death. Given that Julia E. Sweig is one of the leading historical authorities on the Cuban revolution anywhere, and has written and spoken about events in much detail many times, perhaps you could contact her with these revelations and perhaps, oversights.--Zleitzen 14:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Che's purges redux

message: Usually an executioner is either anonymous (e.g. hooded) or has a background distant from his victims. For this reason foreigners are often given this function.  And it is anomalous for a chosen executioner not to have a previous "kill" before assuming that "job."  When one reads of the preparations to sail in the Granma to Cuba, apparently there were a few executions or attempts to execute in which Guevara played a major role.  In addition, Guevara's record in Guatemala has gaps which might suggest such. Will provide citations later.  El Jigue 1-26-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 15:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks again EJ, more food for thought and this information has been noted. Apparently, the graves of those executed in Mexico remain to this day. I understood those executions to be the responsibility of Fidel's "council" and I might be wrong but at least one of these men was executed by Fidel himself. I'm not sure if Guevara, who was not yet an integral figure at that time was directly involved. This would be an area that I imagine Polaris would have some further details on.--Zleitzen 19:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Was Guevara included among the crew of Granma to function as an executioner?

message: There is a new reference (unfortunately for some in Spanish):
Arzuaga, Javier 2006 (accessed 1-29-07) Complete Radio interview on executions in la Cabaña in 1959 and related topics interviewed by Guillermo Toledo and others on El Programa Radial Magazine Cubano on 12-17-06.  
Transcript from ContactCuba. Com 
This reference has a number of odd spellings (e.g. Autilio instead of Eutimio) however, it contains novel information such as the execution of the killers in the Humbolt 7 murders, an event we know now to have been triggered by a communist party informant ("Marquito" I think).  While the death of Ariel Lima a 16 year old, and anti-Batista resistance activist, who had turned informer to avoid the rape of his mother, was immediate.  This together with such known Guevara acts as keeping BRAC files secret, strongly suggests that the Che was interested in "whitewashing" communist party's colaboration with Batista by informing on other resistance leaders. In addition the previously cited attribution of communist party affiliation (by Fuentes) of Colonel Blanco Rico the head of Batista Military Intelligence (SIM), also detracts from the credibility of details in Guevara's accounts of the war against Batista, and can be taken to suggest the possibility of bias beyond that of an expected military leader's self-serving statements. Another interesting statement found in this reference is the suggestion that partisans of Raul Castro are at present trying (as mentioned before) to burden Guevara with Raul's own actions. There is reference to Arzuaga's new book "Cuba 1959: La Galera de la muerte" which I have not yet read.  El Jigue 1-29-0617:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: new details

message: Guevara is executed and his topless body goes on display. The article then states that "photographs taken at that time gave rise to legends such as those of San Ernesto de La Higuera and El Cristo de Vallegrande", and there is a link to this page, which is in foreign. This sentence has been widely copied and translated across the internet, but what does it mean? What are the legends of San Ernesto de La Higuera and El Cristo de Vallegrande? -Ashley Pomeroy 00:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legends 

message: Che has a family name of Lynch which can be traced back to his grahdmother on his father's side . His grandmother has roots in Co.Galway which is on the west coast of Ireland . His father was quoted one time saying his son has the rebel blood of an Irishman running through his veins . Che had a night out in Limerick on his way from Prague back to Cuba and it was reported he and his men arrived back at shannon airport with bunches of shamrock on there chest (it was close to St.Patricks Day) after having a few pint's of the black stuff . Buts lets not forget the Irish saying "NEVER LET THE TRUYH GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD STORY" . 
His name of Guavaero has its roots in the basque region of Spain which is another region famous for its rebel fighters . If you ask me its no wonder he became the revolutionary icon he is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.134.187.17 (talk) 21:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Che's family history 

message: I was wonder why is there no :Template:Infobox revolution biography with image on this article, like on Martin Luther King, Jr.. It would look like this:
Furthermore can one use the :Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg (the famous Che Guevara photo) on this article under fair use? - C mon 17:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page did indeed have a template such as the above, but someone deleted the picture (albeit a cropped version) yesterday, for reasons that are not entirely clear. Please add your template to the page.-- Zleitzen (Talk) 17:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template

message: An excerpt from WP:IC:
'A number of Wikipedia articles have inline citations, and in the case of Featured Articles (formally "Brilliant Prose" articles), Featured Articles Candidates, Good Articles, Good Article Candidates, and (when applicable) A-Class Articles, inline citations are considered mandatory.'
This is a Featured Article and the information re sourcing provided by the statement included in the text of the article "an interview released by one of his household staff in a History Channel documentary about his life" does not meet the minimal standards set forth in Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Manual of Style; I have therefore removed the material in question. Please view comparison here:  .
Polaris999 23:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inadequate sourcing