Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (jguk's changes)

message: Because this discussion is so long, it was split from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. Maurreen 07:23, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

message: Because the word "period" is apparently offensive to some people, why don't we compromise on that issue somehow, and restore the differences concerning:
*"U.S."
*Fowler's good guidelines
*serial comma
:Maurreen 16:41, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The amendments to the first and third are a compromise, and they aren't enormous changes either. You seem to object to deletion of the phrase "we prefer it that way", which isn't necessary, and does not correspond with the poll results which showed half of those responding don't prefer it that way. Quite what's wrong with removing the opinion that Burchfield's guidelines are "good", I don't know. Readers can decide for themselves on Burchfield (personally I think some of what he writes is good, some bad). Finally, whether it is relevant or not, I do not know, but there appears to be a clear US/non-US divide here. I would ask US contributors to recognise this and not to try the "US has more English speakers than the rest of the world" argument to force a US POV. jguk 20:13, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: References to numbers for American English were made in response to Zoney's suggestion that it is a minority dialect. Maurreen 16:38, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that it was a minority dialect. The majority dialect being indian english (which follows the UK pattern more, by the way). CheeseDreams 00:12, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise?

message: Because this page is so long, and because the discussion is continued below, does anyone mind if this section is archived? Maurreen 17:17, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: This section is effectively the start of a larger section comprising Jguk's changes, Neutrality,  RfC, Fowler, Period, Serial comma and "U.S.". I would like to continue the "U.S." discussion a bit unless you feel it has been accepted that the whole "U.S." policy should be removed. This is because I can't understand how having "U.S." makes it easier to search for things, particularly in the light of comments already made there. I have no objection to the remainder of the discussions are archived en masse. However, in the light of your query under "Serial comma" and my response thereto, I would oppose archiving the "Jguk changes" section without archiving those other sections. jguk 19:32, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive?

message: A few people here have made comments more or less that they don't see what the big deal is. I can empathize with them to a degree. But in my view, an overblown discussion is at least better than edit wars or revert wars, for one example. I hope this comes across the right way; I mean it only as explanation. Maurreen 07:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Much ado about nothing

message: The rules in this Manual of Style are not set down as permanent, fixed rules. They do not discuss every scenario that you will come across and must therefore be applied with elasticity. As both Wikipedia and English usage continue to develop, these rules will also change with time
I happen to dislike the CMS's quote, personally, since "rock-ribbed law" has also the implications of hoary, old, and hidebound as well. I do not think this quote should be changed lightly, however. As a possible alternative (unlikely to earn jguk's approval however) may I suggest the final introductroy paragraph of Strunk's Elements of style?
:It is an old observation that the best writers sometimes disregard the rules of rhetoric. When they do so, however, the reader will usually find in the sentence some compensating merit, attained at the cost of the violation. Unless he is certain of doing as well, he will probably do best to follow the rules. After he has learned, by their guidance, to write plain English adequate for everyday uses, let him look, for the secrets of style, to the study of the masters of literature.
(or better yet, rule #13 [now #17]: Omit needless words.) - Amgine 18:33, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. I think we should have Wikipedia's own version of the paragraph. There's no real reason why we shouldn't. Perhaps you could either comment on my suggestion, or come up with your own? jguk 22:25, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Amgine's rule #1: Be brief. (tongue in cheek, of course) - Amgine 22:49, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested rephrasing (please suggest other options below)

message: Jguk, because your preference for what you call "neutral language" appears to be at the heart of much of what you do, why don't you have that discussion?
This is not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know. Maurreen 11:49, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Neutrality"

message: Because we are so closely divided, I am listing this at WP:RFC.
The disagreements concern:
#The quote at the beginning of style guide.
#Fowler's "good" guidelines.
#The expressions "period" and "full stop."
#The serial comma.
#"U.S."
Along the lines Jallan has suggested, I am breaking up the discussion. Maurreen 17:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC

message: It appears that jguk is the only person who supports removing the word "good" from the following: "This is the British style. (Fowler has good guidelines for this." 
Does anyone else agree with jguk on this issue? Maurreen 17:10, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, 4 people agreed with all the changes I made (see above). Only 3 people, including yourself, have so far disagreed with this change. jguk 22:35, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: But do they still agree?  If so, why do they agree? This is discussion, not a poll.Again, jguk's removal of the word "good" doesn't make the statement more netural, only less idiomatic. In its context, a sudden note that Fowler discusses the matter implies that Fowler's discussion is "good" just as strongly as inserting the word, otherwise why mention that at all. What is the understood intention of either version in mentioning Fowler in particular as a reference, and as a "good" reference whether or not the word "good" appears? Surely to indicate a place where the reader can go for more information ... even though that is not explicitly stated as its intention. Fowler's discussion is only arguably better than that of other books discussing logical punctuation with quotations. I don't think it is better on worse than others I have seen or have at hand. The reason why the passage mentions Fowler rather than other books is probably 1) because logical punctuation is usually poorly discussed in style guides recommending the alternate method and so it is worthwhile to indicate a particular source or particular sources, 2) because Fowler is later given special status as one of the sources which one should consult when the MoS regulations fail and the only one of those to cover this decently, 3) and because the Burchfield Fowler discussion is far more complete than that in the MoS, and may help in edge cases. I would recommend replacing good with fuller (which indicates precisely the kind of goodness) were it not that the Robert Allen pocket Fowler, the most easily found edition, has reduced the particular discussion to a point where it is very little longer than the discussion in the MoS. Accordingly, either note that the Burchfield Fowler has substantially fuller information, or that this is covered in Fowler and many other British English style guides. Either gives the reader the idea of where they can look for more information. Jallan 23:41, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Jallan. Maurreen 07:01, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarifying where we stand

message: As Jallan suggested, I am replacing the material in question with this:
:"A fuller treatment of the recommendations given here can be found in Fowler and other British style guides, some of which vary in fine details."
:Maurreen 10:31, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Jallan's suggestion

message: Does anyone besides jguk agree with the change made about serial commas, as shown in the beginning of this section? Maurreen 17:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, 4 people agreed with all the changes I made (see above). Only 3 people, including yourself, have so far disagreed with the change about Oxford commas. jguk 19:26, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: I would be happy with the changed text, except that it leaves open the possibility that a bold editor will just change the policy, unchecked by supporting citations. On the other hand, adding a selected set of references just seems to foment argument, so perhaps that's a wash. I think User:Jallan's subpages for references (with accompanying Talk pages) and jguk's suggestion of a subarticle on this frequently contested topic are worth considering. (That wasn't very clarifying, was it? ☺) — Jeff Q 20:52, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series of three or more elements, a comma should be used before the conjunction to prevent the last two elements from being confused as a unit. For example: 'The wires were brown, blue, and green'. (This is recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style and other authorative sources.)
As an aside, the argument about confusion only makes sense since this rule exists. Other languages, such as Dutch and Swedish, do never use a comma in such constructions. Moreover, based on the argument, you would also need to place a comma if there are only two elements. -- Han-Kwang (talk) 21:28, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: The two-element case does not apply, as the rule (no matter which version you follow) specifically states "three or more". English style guides typically reinforce this by explicitly pointing out that there are no commas when the word "and" occurs between each parallel term in the series (e.g., "red and blue and green"). But this isn't really the place to debate serial/Oxford comma usage, just its MoS phrasing. — Jeff Q 22:02, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Then ditch the remark about confusion and write: When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series of three or more elements, a comma should be used before the conjunction. For example: 'The wires were brown, blue, and green'. (This is recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style and other authorative sources.)
By the way, I don't feel that this whole discussion is such an important issue, but I strolled in through the RfC page  -- Han-Kwang (talk) 22:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: Because jguk's change essentially had two elements (removing the references and weakening the style), I'd like to find out where we stand on each of those. Maurreen 07:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarifying where we stand

message: I prefer not to weaken the style, mainly because jguk has provided insufficient justification, in my view. Maurreen 07:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Comma weakening

message: I don't like making discussions like this personal, but I'm really getting tired of jguk's efforts to "fix" or delete a policy that is benign and non-mandatory. When he started a poll to remove it, despite listing arguments for removal but none against, the vote was evenly split. Per Wiki policy, and as Jallan reminded us above, this leaves the existing text in place. Then he started these arguments anew on the MoS and other pages, whittling away at details that are not critical, given the non-mandatory policy. During this, he tried to make the debate sound like a America vs. Britain contest. When other British English users chimed in with their general lack of concern for the policy wording, he claimed this was a consensus to remove the policy ("more people seem to be commenting that it's pointless having this policy in there"), which was the position for which he created the poll. Finally, he continues here and in other MoS issues to misinterpret the idea of "lack of clear majority for current policy" as a reason to remove existing policy, when again Jallan (a Canadian) has pointed out correctly that changing the MoS should not be done without a clear majority consensus. (This is based on the sound Wiki idea that these debates have all been done before, and relatively new Wiki editors (jguk is a 3-monther, according to his user page) frequently wade into repairing many perceived wrongs without researching the histories of these debates.)
As for the matter at hand, I for one am sorry I invested the time to do the research to clarify all this "opinionating". Despite the work I've contributed above, I think that any wording for the "U.S. vs. US" policy that is clear, unambiguous, and accurate is acceptable, with or without references, because this is not a mandatory requirement. The only reason I recommended a citation in the first place was to remove the unsourced and manifestly unprovable claim that any policy is "the more common style in that country". (Google searches and opinion polls are not facts, merely reflections of online usage and interested-Wikipedian enthusiasm, respectively. It is incredible foolishness to think that either represents statistically meaningful data about the entire nation's mass of printed material.) Let's settle on a benign but accurate statement and let it go. — Jeff Q 22:19, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: U.S. vs. US: Enough!

message: Does anyone object to archiving the discussion about the quote at the beginning of the style guide? Maurreen 13:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive about quote?

message: I think we could probably all use a fresh start with this.
My main concern has always been that substantive changes should not be made without discussion. I think they should have appropriate deliberation and consensus. This includes whether there is any consensus to change any given element and how such a change should be worded.
As is shown at least in the comments under #RFC No. 2, jguk's changes do not have consensus. So I am going to revert them again. But I would really prefer to avoid any of us reverting each other. 
I think it would be best for all of us if we can try to work toward consensus through friendly discussion before making substantive changes. I would probably include under "substantive changes" anything that raises much or any disagreement.
If we, as a group, handle our disagreements on the talk page, in contrast to the style guide itself, I will be happy to remove the request for arbitration.
I recognize that views on the handling of the word "period" are more divided. I invite a friendly discussion on the best way to handle that. I would like us to work toward something that is the least objectionable to the most people. Then, if the group decides on a change, and the specifics of the change, we make the change.
But I would like to suggest postponing further discussion about the treatment of the serial comma and "U.S." I acknowledge that Jeff Q and others have raised valid points. My reluctance is based on the recent history. I think that if any change is warranted, it would be easier to have a more friendly and productive discussion after the issues were given a rest for at least two months. Maurreen 13:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Fresh start?

message: I am copying the next section from the main style guide talk page. Some of the comments are already on this page; some are not. Maurreen 10:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copied comments

message: I don't wish to get back into a revert war, but I do have some queries regarding Maurreen's latest changes. I'd be grateful if she would answer them: jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with jguk on this: it's harmless to say "period (full stop)", and, to a portion of the world, it's a useful clarification. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:38, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)
"but I do agree with the deletion, as it seems silly to keep on saying period/full stop. Everyone knows what a period is. While we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid."  Slim 09:40, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC) So if I replace every instance of period with full stop, as everyone knows what a full stop is, and while we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid, you will not object? Did you read Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes)#Period? Philip Baird Shearer 11:37, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: No! ... whilst WP editors may be aware that a period in typographical terms is usually known as a  full stop by many, that would be a very US-centric approach to take for our users. Around the English-speaking world both terms are used (and, probably, both can be mis-understood!) so it would *not* be harmless to drop either in favour of the other. We shouldn't assume people are stupid, but we shouldn't assume that their primary language is US English either. --Vamp:Willow 12:07, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: This is one of those cases that is right on the cusp between two policies, and we simply ought to adopt one consistently. It seems to me entirely appropriate that we adopt the dominant spelling from the country that the name designates. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:41, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)
===Maurreen's response===
I have copied the comments and questions from jguk and Jmabel to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes), and I answered jguk there.
Jguk has suggested on my talk page that he and I "not re-address the issue for a while, and let other Wikipedians add their commments." I am willing to do that. Maurreen 19:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Some questions regarding Maurreen's changes

message: A large number of Wikipedians, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was most, do not use the Oxford comma. This is not surprising. It tends to not be used by those outside North America, and tends to be used in North America. But both using and not using the Oxford comma are permitted by all forms of standard English.  Commonsense would be to keep the de facto status quo of not preferring one permitted form of English over another. My queries to Maurreen, who wishes to require Wikipedians to use the Oxford comma, are: 1. Why? 2. Is she proposing that copyediting Wikipedians should actively hunt out instances where the Oxford comma is not used (which, I'd guess, number in the tens of thousands)? jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Oxford comma

message: Assuming Maurreen recognises that not everyone understands the usage of the word "period" as a punctuation mark, what does Maurreen have against clarifying the word for British and Irish users. Maybe we could try "period (full stop)" if Maurreen does not like the British/Irish English word to go first? jguk 15:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with jguk on this: it's harmless to say "period (full stop)", and, to a portion of the world, it's a useful clarification. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:38, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)
"but I do agree with the deletion, as it seems silly to keep on saying period/full stop. Everyone knows what a period is. While we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid."  Slim 09:40, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC) So if I replace every instance of period with full stop, as everyone knows what a full stop is, and while we shouldn't assume readers of this page are linguists, we also shouldn't assume they're stupid, you will not object? Did you read Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes)#Period? Philip Baird Shearer 11:37, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: No! ... whilst WP editors may be aware that a period in typographical terms is usually known as a  full stop by many, that would be a very US-centric approach to take for our users. Around the English-speaking world both terms are used (and, probably, both can be mis-understood!) so it would *not* be harmless to drop either in favour of the other. We shouldn't assume people are stupid, but we shouldn't assume that their primary language is US English either. --Vamp:Willow 12:07, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing the clarification of "full stop (period)" to "period"

message: I have copied the comments and questions from jguk and Jmabel to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes), and I answered jguk there.
Jguk has suggested on my talk page that he and I "not re-address the issue for a while, and let other Wikipedians add their commments." I am willing to do that. Maurreen 19:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Maurreen's response