Talk:New Historians

message: :Although the new Historians's represent a variety of views, in generalization they present Zionism as a less innocent movement,
Er, less innocent than what?  Than other historians say?  Which other historians?  Than another movements? This article assumes a lot of context... djk
: Yes, going back to it, that's probably not clear enough. I'll try to change the wording. --Uri
::Thanks, much better. djk
---
Why is this article's neutrality disputed?  Or is the statement at the top of the article in reference to the above, and can now be deleted? Tokerboy 22:31 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)
Ok, I just need a little clarification.  When we say "new historians", who precisely are we talking about?  Many times I hear of them mentioned as synonomous with the post-Zionist scholars, anti-Zionist scholars, etc.  But Zero0000 points out that three people named, so far, in this article, deny being anti-Zionist. (And I know that Benny Morris isn't anywhere near as pro-Palestinian as he used to be.)  Would the following Israelis not be considered New Historians?  Dan Bar-On (Dept. of Human Behaviour, Ben Gurion Univ.; Bejamin Beit-Hallahmi, Psychology, Univ. of Haifa;  Uri Ben Eilezer, sociologist as Univ. of Haifa; Neve Gordon, political science teacher at Ben Gurion Univ.; Baruch Kimmerling, Sociology at Hebrew University. Would these people be better classified as not New Historians? RK 02:13, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  "less innocent"  

message: I'm sure this does belong in the article, but it was sufficiently incoherent that I couldn't copy edit into coherence; let's fix it first and get it back in.
* Teddy Katz versus Alexandroni Brigade In 1998, Teddy Katz, a Meretz activist and student of Ilan Pappe, presented a research for M.A. diploma which claimed that the Alexandroni Brigade commited a massacre in the Arab village of Tantura. The veterns of the brigade sued Katz for libel and won in court. The court found that Katz fabricated tesitmonies and twisted quotations. Following the trial, the Haifa University disqualified his work. It was later revealed that the PA has founded Katz lawyer in the trial. (see [6])
Issues:
#"a research for M.A. diploma". "Research" as a noun in this context makes no sense. Is this "a Masters' thesis"? "a research paper in a course at the M.A. level"? or what?
#I can mostly fix the spelling issues, but one word I can't guess: "has founded Katz lawyer"? One cannot "found" a person. Perhaps "funded"? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:11, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
: Thanks. You are right, of course.
:# Yes, I meant to his Master thesis work.
:# Of cource, I meant "funded". What a shameful typo...
: MathKnight 19:52, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Teddy Katz]] versus [[Alexandroni Brigade]] 

message: "fleeing of their own choice" is an oxymoron. One "flees" out of DANGER not "choice". Sentence needs correction. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.24.152.36 (talk • contribs) 16 August 2006.
:It beggars belief that anyone should still be claiming that the Palestinians were anything other than ethnically cleansed. Nobody reading this would abandon their homes in the fashion described, other than in severe fear of their lives - why would the Palestinians have done so? And so what if they had, they'd still have an absolute legal and moral right to return there! PalestineRemembered 21:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  fleeing of their own choice? 

message: This anonymous uncommented edit strikes me as little more than a hatchet job. I have restored a paragraph that was removed without comment (the one that begins Benny Morris versus Norman Finkelstein and Nur Masalha). I'm inclined to revert every bit of this, but figured I would allow at least 72 hours for comment before acting unilaterally. - Jmabel | Talk 18:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have actively solicited comment from several people who have edited this article in the past, and also posted to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Arab-Israeli conflict. - Jmabel | Talk 18:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Clearly you were right to restore that paragraph and undoing even more of that edit would have been appropriate.  I'm doing that now. I'm also removing a later addition: Indeed, Benny Morris himself admitted to not using much of the newly available archival material for the writing of his book - "[W]hen writing The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-1949 in the mid-1980s, I had no access to the materials in the IDFA [IDF Archive] or the Haganah Archive and precious little to first-hand military materials deposited elsewhere."This was presented as if Morris admits to having been wrong, but in fact he claims that the newly available material strengthens his case and shows the Zionist side in worse light than he previously thought. --Zerotalk 11:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hatchet-job edit 

message: This article gives no dates on when the New Historians' publication history began. I think it was some time between 1982 and '85, but I didn't first encounter their work until maybe '88, so I could be wrong. Does someone have something solid on this? - Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rapoport  points to '88 for multiple publications and (apparently) Tevet(h)'s invention of term. Says Shlaim was influenced to take an interest in Israeli history by Pappe's Dr.thesis ('84?) -- dunno if he had any journal pubs before his '88 book. And I haven't looked at Morris yet. Reading this page for the first time a year+ after your question... but it went unanswered? Andyvphil (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates 

message: a government narrative?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.180.40.212 (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  what is the official version?? 

message: I won't change myself the title of the article but I'm shocked that it is limited to the Israeli new historians: the concept exists in other countries as well, e.g. in Turkey (Halil Berktay, Erdogan Aydin, Masis Kürkçügil, Ayhan Aktar, Cemil Koçak), Belgium (Anne Morelli) etc.  The common characteristics is the "deviation" from official State-approved history, this is not peculiar to Israel, the more scientific term is Historical revisionism (nothing in common with negationism). --Pylambert (talk) 19:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The topic of this page is the Israeli new historians (or at least new historians of the israel/palestine region).  The problem you identify is about the title of the page rather than the content.  Changing the title to better reflect the content might be a good idea. Zerotalk 10:12, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's what I meant. Let's wait till I add an article New historians (Turkey), then there will be an homonymy page New historians (why is there a capital letter for historians ?), and this article will probably become New historians (Israel-Palestine). --Pylambert (talk) 17:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the title ought to be more specific.  Deipnosophista (talk) 19:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel-centered article 

message: Michal Ben-Josef Hirsch is a female academic. Can you please correct the reference to her gender from He to She? Also, her correct last name is Ben-Josef Hirsch (and not Hirsch as appears in the text). Can you please correct this too? Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.114.124 (talk) 00:39, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:49, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michal Ben-Josef Hirsch 

message: 3 poorly phrased bulletpoints under "Criticisms" subheading "Benny Morris". They neither fit as "criticisms" nor conform to Wikipedia article standards. Can this be rewritten or removed PhearOTD 23:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole article is pretty messy, but I agree this is the worst—no other historian gets their own bullet list.  I’ll remove the text and dump it below in case anyone can be bothered working it into the body of the article.
===Benny Morris===
*The "Old Historians" lived through 1948 as highly committed adult participants in the epic, glorious rebirth of the Jewish commonwealth. They were unable to separate their lives from this historical event, unable to regard impartially and objectively the facts and processes that they later wrote about.Benny Morris,Making Israel, University of Michigan Press, 2007, pp.14–15.
*The "Old Historians" have written largely on the basis of interviews and memoirs and at best made use of select batches of documents, many of them censored.
*Benny Morris has been critical of the old Historians, describing them, by and large, as not really historians, who did not produce real history: "In reality there were chroniclers and often apologetic",Benny Morris 1948 and after; Israel and the Palestinians, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1994. . p.6 and refers to those who produced it as "less candid", "deceitful" and "misleading".Benny Morris 1948 and after; Israel and the Palestinians, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1994. . p. 2
⚜ Moilleadóir ✍ 05:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  3.2 does not meet Wikipedia standards 

message: *The "Old Historians" lived through 1948 as highly committed adult participants in the epic, glorious rebirth of the Jewish commonwealth. They were unable to separate their lives from this historical event, unable to regard impartially and objectively the facts and processes that they later wrote about.Benny Morris,Making Israel, University of Michigan Press, 2007, pp.14–15.
*The "Old Historians" have written largely on the basis of interviews and memoirs and at best made use of select batches of documents, many of them censored.
*Benny Morris has been critical of the old Historians, describing them, by and large, as not really historians, who did not produce real history: "In reality there were chroniclers and often apologetic",Benny Morris 1948 and after; Israel and the Palestinians, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1994. . p.6 and refers to those who produced it as "less candid", "deceitful" and "misleading".Benny Morris 1948 and after; Israel and the Palestinians, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1994. . p. 2
</blockquote>
⚜ Moilleadóir ✍ 05:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Benny Morris