Talk:It ain't over till the fat lady sings

message: I have a Theory which i cant back up. But the air sirens in ww2 could in some families been called fat lady and then this saying would be spot on.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.193.2.63 (talk) 20:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

message: This term was indeed coined by sportscaster Dan Cook.
 I wish to insert part of an internet article with additional information on the subject, but your information on additions state that is not permissible.
I was sure I had seen that "saying" in "Catcher in the Rye" when I read it in the early fifties.
 
Found substantiation of its use by Salinger on a page entitled "Mr. Gross' Home Page" at a site named Webdreamer
I hope I am not violating a rule by clicking 'Save page'
I am entirely new to participating.
  Thank you
Franmorris 05:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's copyright if you just save copy and paste. If you can reword it, so this not a generic copy, then its allowed. Have a read of WP:Copyright Brian | (Talk) 06:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the saying is even American in origin. I know for a fact that as far back as the 1950's there was a very similar saying in the former Yugoslavia: "Opera nije gotova dok debela ne otpeva." In English that would be, "The opera is not over until the fat woman has finished singing." Which is actually more concise and meaningful than the American version of the metaphor, although I suspect it may have originated elsewhere.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trac63 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Origination

message: If the phrase occurs before 1978, then it isn't a possible alternate origin. Unless Dan Cook has a time machine, his attribution is incorrect. Professor Ninja 12:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dan Cook and the Time Machine? 

message: The article claims that the originator of the quote was voicing a stereotypical view of opera.  Actually there are two operas that fit the bill: TRISTAN AND ISOLDE and TWILIGHT OF THE GODS, both by Wagner.  Both are very long operas in which the soprano appears at the end, after a long absense from the stage, to sing a powerful closing aria  (LIEBESTOD in the first case, BRUNNHILDE'S IMMOLATION SCENE in the second).  One version of the story is that a bored little boy in the audience kept asking whether the opera was over, to which his father replied, accurately but not very elegantly, "it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings."
CharlesTheBold 03:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  which opera? 

message: Deleted. Who cares? That is, would anyone wanting to know about the saying give two hoots about its use in the Simpsons or Independence Day? What relevance do these have to the actual saying, other than fluffiest trivia? - David Gerard 09:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples? 

message: I heard that "the fat lady" is actually referring to the whistle, meaning that the game isn't over until the whistle is blown signifying the end of the game.  The quote on this article, "The opera ain't over until the fat lady sings" seems to show that this is actually not the case.  I can understand how the whistle interpretation may have been drawn from incorrect knowledge of the saying's origins, but it may be worth further discussion.  Has anyone else heard this before?  Syckls 15:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, and it's pretty far-fetched. The saying refers to opera, specifically the Brunhilde stereotype complete with horned helmet, breastplate and spear. Also, Earl Weaver used to use that expression, and there are no whistles used in baseball. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another explanation I have heard before 

message: Here is a claim with permission that says it is from the Texas Legislature or Texas Republic legislature. The phrase was "it ain't over until the fat lady sings" - the legislature would close with an aria sung by an opera diva, and the saying was used whenever a motion was defeated, meaning "I can bring it up again until the end of the session" - See http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/archives/002189.html which gives permission for use with credit or check it out independently. 
In any case I am pretty sure that phrase was around BEFORE Yogi Berra and we all thought Berra was funny because he was paraphrasing the saying when he said "it ain't over until it's over." Mewnews (talk) 02:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  And Another Explanation 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
Here are some reasons why I believe "till" should be used in the page name:
* Google: ~12,000 hits for the phrase with "'til"  and ~30,000 for the phrase with "till"  (~11,000 hits with "until" )
* Grammar: According to "The Columbia Guide to Standard American English" (1993), " 'Til is a variant spelling used by those who think (incorrectly) that till is a clipped form. At best it looks old-fashioned and self-conscious. Use till instead."  Ulmanor 18:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It seems a little silly to be debating whether "'til" is grammatically correct when the phrase contains "ain't". Dekimasuよ! 05:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 14:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move (old)

message: In my opinion, the name of article is less important so long as the article itself states that variations of this phrase exist, and briefly lists examples of variations. Just a suggestion. GracenotesT § 20:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It seems a little silly to be debating whether "'til" is grammatically correct when the phrase contains "ain't". Dekimasuよ! 05:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 14:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: My father, who was a geordie, born in newcastle in 1909, told me when I was a young boy, around 1955, that the phrase "the show's not over 'til the fat lady sings, referred to the pea in a referee's whistle.  Meaning the match wasn't over til the referee blew his whistle.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.244.182.222 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good fable. Tell us another one. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  the show's not over 'til the fat lady sings 

message: Some people have held that the "fat lady" is a reference to singer Kate Smith, a popular and amazingly talented American singer of the 1940's and 50's, who was most noted for her stirring rendition of Irving Berlin's "God Bless America".  It appears from the above that the reference predates Ms. Smith's era by many years, and most likely originated from the European operatic genre as mentioned above.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.13.28.70 (talk) 16:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kate Smith 

message: Why has this page still not been moved to "It ain't over till [...]"? Irrespective of whether the quotation uses until or till, there is no such word as  'til; at best it is non-standard and makes us look ignorant. — Paul G (talk) 15:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've corrected all  'tils in the article to tills, so now the article title is inconsistent with the contents. — Paul G (talk) 17:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misspelling in title 

message: There's a suggestion that the phrase was originally 'the carnival...' - but since it's citing no evidence I'm going to remove it. Feel free to reinstate if you have convincing evidence. Cooke (talk) 11:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carnival 

message: Eric Idle's "Bright side of life" routine at the 2012 Olympics closing ceremony had a pseudo-Wagnerian lady standing beside him at the end of his routine... AnonMoos (talk) 00:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Visual allusion

message: I'm sure I heard this line in the British comedyseries 'The Morecambe and Wise show', where indeed a big lady sang at the end of the show, and Morecambe said: 'It ain't over till the fat lady sings'. That could be the origin, because it was in the seventies. Later in the Britsh comedyshows of Harry Enfield there was a 'fat bloke' singing at the end of the show, and I thought that was a funny variation / sort of respect for the old Morecambe and Wise show.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.217.27 (talk) 13:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin Morecambe & Wiseshow 

message: The claim attributing the phrase to Don Meredith is vague and has no citation.  Its inclusion has the effect of making the section self-contradictory.  Unless a citation can be found, it seems like it should be deleted. Dansan99 (talk) 06:49, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don Meredith claim 

message: The claim quoting a passage from "A House to Let" by Charles Dickens, et al. is factually incorrect and has no citation. The words "the fat lady of Norfolk had sung her final song" do not in fact appear in "A House to Let," as can be easily verified by perusing the full text of the short story at Project Gutenberg here.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2324/2324-h/2324-h.htm
Like the Don Meredith claim, this claim should be deleted as it appears to be false original research. AlanSiegrist (talk) 23:42, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That appears to be vandalism, introduced in .  That is that user's only edit. I have removed it and warned the user, although I doubt they'll be back nearly a year later to see the warning. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 19:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charles Dickens claim 

message: The article currently states that the first recorded use appeared in the Dallas Morning News on 10 March 1976. However, there's a very similar phrase printed in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram on 3 January 1976 ("Courthouse candor prizes awarded", page 7-A ):
:Commissioner Jerry Mebus, too, took an honorable mention for the quotes he dreamed up and never used.
:Mebus has been waiting almost a full year for the right situation so he can drop one of his best. "Don't leave the church until the fat lady sings."
The 10 March usage that is currently cited in the article has at least one additional source to support that claim. Is it appropriate to add this 3 January citation? —Bkell (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Earlier usage: 3 January 1976