Talk:Benito Mussolini/Archive 1

message: There are two proposals:  and . Mussolini in military uniform or a thoughtful Mussolini in black? Somebody thinks that the uniform version could be seen as pro-Mussolini, somebody else thinks that it's a more typical picture of the man.
:I think there's something in the compliant that the military photo could be seen as pro-Musso. But the Italian wiki uses it. It's not a big deal in itself.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's keep it like it is now (I don't even remember which version it is) with no caption (there was a crazy debate about the caption too...). --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An anonymous user (15.203.137.72) proposes to keep the military uniform picture. Since I don't care and he's been the only one apart from us intervening in this debate, let's be kind to him.--MauroVan 12:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 12:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture (DONE) 

message: In Germany(Partito Nazionale Fascista) or in English (National Fascist Party)?
:Who cares?--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Partito Nazionale Fascista is a redirect to National Fascist Party, so let's use the latter. --MauroVan 12:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Party name (DONE)

message: Should she be called Rachele Mussolini or Donna Rachele Mussolini? "Donna" is not part of the proper name, since it just means "Lady" in Italian, but she was indeed widely known as "Donna Rachele" in Italy.
:This is linguistically important. In English (this Wiki is in English), Donna Rachele Mussolini means: first name: Donna, Middle: Rachele, etc.. The answer is Rachele Mussolini.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. --MauroVan 12:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Donna should be included as it was part of her name and used regularly LiAm McShAnE 19:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wife name (DONE)

message: Should we let the profession field blank or should we write "Elementary schoolmaster" there? Another option could be something like "Head of the Government" but it seems unlogical to put such a "job" in a President template. Another option could be "Journalist".
:He was a "politician"!! --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This makes no sense in a President template! Each President is a politician... That field is of course for the job he had before turning into a politician. Both schoolmaster and journalist could fit. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see. In that case, journalist seems appropriate.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 11:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Profession (DONE)

message: Was he born in Predappio, where he's buried now, or in Dovia?
:I discovered that Dovia is just a part of Predappio. I think we could write "Dovia di Predappio" and everybody should be satisfied. --MauroVan 13:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Birth place (DONE)

message: When WWI broke out, Mussolini took a position at variance with the Socialist Party and he was eventually expelled by the party. He founded the "Fasci d'azione rivoluzionaria internazionalista" in October 1914. Were these Fasci founded "within the Socialist Party" or not?
:This is very important. He was no longer a socialist when he founded "the fasci d'azione rivoluzionari" according to DeFelice.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. He was expelled from the Socialist Party when he wrote about the need for "active neutralism" on Avanti!, since this position was (correctly) seen as a theoretical maneuvre to get closer and closer to nationalist interventism. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fasci status in 1914 (DONE)

message: Was Giacomo Matteotti an Internationalist Socialist or should we just call him a Socialist?
:Who cares.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From Wikipedia: "As a follower of Filippo Turati, Matteotti became the leader of the United Socialist Party in the Italian Chamber of Deputies". Turati split from the Socialist Party because he strongly opposed any contact between the Italian Socialists and the Communist International, therefore it's misleading to call Matteotti an Internationalist Socialist (that's how the left wing of mainstream Socialists were sometimes called because they wanted to find an agreement with the Third International): this anti-Fascist martyr was a member of the right wing of the Socialist movement in Italy. --MauroVan 13:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Matteotti was the Secretary of the United Socialist Party, but wasn't popular with all sections of his party. This is from "Years of Liberalism and of Fascism, Italy 1870-1945" by David Evans. 82.44.185.5 13:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Giacomo Matteotti (DONE)

message: Is it true that "members of TIGR, a Slovene anti-fascist group, plotted to kill Mussolini in Kobarid in 1938"? If it is, why shouldn't we add this information in the article?
:I think this story is true and relevant. The Fascist regime executed many Jugoslav patriots. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Slovene plot to kill Mussolini (DONE)

message: Should we show the picture of Mussolini and Claretta Petacci hanging by their feet in 1945? Somebody thinks there's no reason to put the picture there, but it's a very famous picture.
:Use the Common's version, not the dubious fair use one that was being used previously.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture of Mussolini hanging (DONE)

message: Should we put Mussolini in the list of dictators? Nobody has explained why we shouldn't.
:Now, really!! Anyody who suggests he was not a dictator should not be editing this article.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dictatorship (DONE)

message: Should we put Mussolini in the category Anti-Communists? Nobody has explained why we shouldn't.
:Obviously.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-Communism (DONE)

message: This talk page was blanked some time ago, I'm not sure if a vandal or not (or unintentional) but I got a hold of the old version and archived it because I didn't want to mess up the current discussions. It can be found here. Эйрон Кинни (t) 10:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archived 

message: *"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."  Could someone please cite a source for this quote? - japhyfoo@backword.net
I have spent several months trying to find this quote. It appears to be a very bad translation of a section on corporatism supposedly written by Mussolini for the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), but several English translations do not contain anything like this quote.  Chip Berlet <cberlet@igc.org>.
moved off main page left quote on that page User:Smith03
Berlet: I have tracked down the original 1935 English version of Mussolini's pamphlet, Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "The Doctrine of Fascism." (Firenze: Vallecchi Editore), which is listed as a translation of Mussolini's article in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932). The quote above does not appear. Nor does it appear in a longer booklet which contains "The Doctrine of Fascism" as a chapter: 
Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions." (Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers).
I asked a scholar in Europe to find the quote in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and he said he could not find a sentence that translates into the quote above. Until someone who reads Italian, and checks the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and finds there is a sentence that can be accureatly translated into the above quote, I think the quote should not be listed. Chip Berlet <cberlet@igc.org>.
-----
I went and copied the original article in the Enciclopedia Italiana, in case anyone wants to pick a page it is supposed to be on.  If someone wants to argue this quote exists, please cite the page and paragraph from this or another original document. In the meantime, here are some actual quotes from English tranlations.
:The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State--a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values--interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people. (p. 14) 
:Fascism recognises the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which diverent interests are coordinated and harmonised in the unity of the State. (p.15)
:Yet if anyone cares to read over the now crumbling minutes giving an account of the meetings at which the Italian Fasci di Combattimento were founded, he will find not a doctrine but a series of pointers… (p. 23)
:"It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!... I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism." (p. 24)
:Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. (p. 32)
:The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporate, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organised in their respective associations, circulate within the State. (p. 41).
::Benito Mussolini, 1935, "The Doctrine of Fascism," Firenze: Vallecchi Editore.
:The Labour Charter (Promulgated by the Grand Council ofr Fascism on April 21, 1927)—(published in the Gazzetta Ufficiale, April 3, 1927) [sic] (p. 133)
:The Corporate State and its Organization  (p. 133)
:The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and usefu [sic] [typo-should be: useful] instrument in the interest of the nation.
In view of the fact that private organisation of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production.
:State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when  the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management. (pp. 135-136)
::Benito Mussolini, 1935, "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions," Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers.
Hope this is useful. --Cberlet 04:58, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes

message: I assume his belonging to the :Category:Members of the Italian Socialist Party was deleted with the belief that it constituted vandalism. I have created the said cat in the belief that it should cover people who have been active there at any given time (hence the caption at the top of the cat page). I am a left-winger myself, so I have no special need to slander the socialists (as I assume people using "Roman-Catholic" vs. "Atheist" or vice-versa have had), nor is this connected with the idiotic pretense that state ownership=fascism. Mussolini's activities in the PSI cover an important part of his life, and the controversies he had with the rest of the party are covered only too well here and in other articles - so no one should view this as somehow incriminating the rest of the PSI. However, if I am wrong and this was erased by fascists who want to cover their tracks according to the demands of their own ideology, then I ask them to go and dunk their heads in pools of crap. I am puzzled as to who did it and why because I haven't checked the article in a long while, and I'd have a hard time checking edits version by version. Please, if you see this category removed again, revert to a version showing it or add it to the newest version. Thanks. Dahn 20:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mussolini as a member of the Italian Socialist Party

message: a short-lived Soviet influence was established in Bavaria just about this time. The Bavarian Soviet Republic was founded in 1919, three years before Mussolini would form a government. Intangible 19:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bavarian Soviet Republic 

message: He was a member of the CDU-party in Germany??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.247.27.196 (talk • contribs) .
:I don't think so. The CDU didn't exist back then, the incarnation was the Centre Party and I'm not sure about the membership requirements, but it is highly unlikely. Эйрон Кинни (t) 10:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Especially since he is sourced to be an atheist. Aaрон Кинни (t) 21:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  CDU 

message: It's not in a book or an academic journal, so I'm not quite sure how to use it, but none the less it's quite fascinating. The Jewish mother of Fascism Margherita Sarfatti. Take Care! --Will(talk) 09:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Il Duce's Jewish Mistress 

message: I changed two letters in the photo caption "A portrait of a passive Mussolini" so that it now reads "A portrait of a pensive Mussolini". Hi There 08:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pensive is not an appropriate description, unless Mussolini actually told the photographer that he felt pensive and the photographer noted that somewhere. The caption should not claim to know anything about his state of mind as the portrait was taken. Remember: WP:VERIFY. I don’t think the photo needs a caption at all. It’s quite obviously Mussolini, and he’s not doing anything in the photo, so there’s nothing for a caption to comment on. --Rob Kennedy 08:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo Caption

message: In the section "Early Years" we read the following: "After his return to Italy ... he joined the staff of the "Central Organ of the Socialist Party", Avanti!... Mussolini had a brother, Arnaldo, who would later become the editor of Il Popolo d'Italia, the official newspaper of Benito Mussolini's Fascist Party (November 1922)." The section ends, and the next section, entitled "Birth Of Fascism" has the following "These syndicalists formed a group called Fasci d'azione rivoluzionaria internazionalista in October 1914. Massimo Rocca and Tulio Masotti asked Mussolini to settle the contradiction of his support for interventionism and still being the editor of Avanti!..." Firstly, the line about his brother seems to have no relation to the rest of the paragraph, and is misplaced in that it is out of chronologically out of context too. I.e. we are reading about events of 1910, we then read a mention of his brother and 1922, and then we are again reading about 1914 and Mussolini's attitude towards intervention. The next problem is, that when we left him in the previous section Mussolini had merely joined the staff of Avanti, and now he is the editor; a mention should be made of his accession to the editorship, I should think.Hi There 08:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: When Did He Become Editor of Avanti

message: The last half of the last paragraph in the section "Fascist Dictatorship" contains the following sentence: "But his "axis" with Germany was confirmed when he made the "Pact of Steel" with Hitler in May 1939. Clearly the subordinate partner, Mussolini followed the Nazis in adopting a racial policy that led to persecution of the Jews and the creation of apartheid in the Italian empire. Before this, Jews were not specifically persecuted by Mussolini's government, and were permitted to be high members of the Party. Members of TIGR, a Slovene anti-fascist group, plotted to kill Mussolini in Kobarid in 1938, but were unsuccessful. One of Mussolini's famous quotes is "If I retreat, kill me"".
I have removed this sentence because it is repeated nearly verbatim in the following section "The Axis of Blood and Steel." Hi There 17:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed a duplicated part of the section "Fascist Dictatorship"

message: The statements "Mussolini did not approve all policies of Hitler and in April, 1938, Mussolini privately suggested that the Vatican consider excommunicating Adolf Hitler." really could use more detail! I would expect that anyone reading this article would also be interested to know.  Hi There 18:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably false. I've never read such a thing in DeFelice or anyone else. Source it or remove it.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 18:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This story is a hoax. --MauroVan 09:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for amplication of Mussolini's suggestion that the Vatican excommunicate Hitler

message: This seems undeserving of a section, it seems like a historical curiosity than an important facet of Mussolini's life, unless he says somewhere that this was the love of his life, this should be lessened in importance, given maybe a sentence or two.  Perhaps a better section would be "Mussolini and Anti-Semitism" or "Mussolini and Nazism" Jztinfinity 18:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish mistress

message: To say that Mussolini was 'executed' presupposes some form of legal process, when in fact he was murdered by Communists without trial.  Might I suggest 'killed' or 'shot' as a more neutral term?
White Guard 01:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does it say on the Ceacescu page about the murder of Ceacesucu, for example? Let's be consistent. If it says mudered here, it should say murdered there. If it says executed there, it should say executed here. Period.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tyrannicide (or regicide) is abtually a very controverssial issue, since it is the tyrant himself who abolished the rule of law and put himself above it.
Since there was no rule of law, excpet the dicatates of one man, then I think the word execution is fine. other men decided to take the law into their own hands. At that point, he was no longer the law and they were.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 09:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I know, WG, it's just as old Berlusconi said "Mussolini only sent people on vacations on the islands." And the Holocaust never happened either?? Fascism lives!! Only on the Wackipedia, ladies and gentlemen.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The evidence of his direct invlvement in war crimes and genocide is much more abundant tha anything that has ever been found against AH. just read the article. I've added and documented much of it. There is much, much more where that came from. Ceacessu the Communist, on the other hand, was given a phony trial (why??? couldn't find anything  on him?)  and assasinated by the White Guards of the Catholic Church.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Go ahead. Neo-fascists have attempted to whitewash the histiry on this page many, many times in the past. They have almost always failed in their efforts. For the purposes of the article, please use reliable and verifiable sources for any of your edits. As to the "red Communism", not even close. I'm a moderate social democrat. My grandfather was a member of the Partito d'Azione (liberal/socialist hybrid) whose basic platform was strong anti-fascim, anti-Communism and  anti-totalitarianims of any stripe. You need to study a little bit of Italian history, my friend,  before  you can even begin to the slightest idea of what you're talking about. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine then, we are enemies. Who cares?? You seem to enjoy babbling on talk pages. Please see Wikipedia is not a forum. If you have something to add to the article, go right ahead and do it. Your content will be heavily scrutinized by myself and others who  recogzine my extremely well-established credibility as an exopedian. Period.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS, if you want to take this any furhter, please go to my personal talk page.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PPS. I am deeply anti-religious (particulayrly anti-Catholic) but does that entail communism? Impeccable logic!!--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, the precise technical term in English is "summarily executed". --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 15:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I didn't know until now that it was a crime to be a Communist. I am. So what? Moreover, Wikipedia is not a forum as you should know. Personal opinions of editor Francesco don't need to be discussed here. --MauroVan 07:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Executed or Murdered? 

message: Substituted at 20:23, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment