Talk:2006 Lebanon War/Archive 26

message: ===Title again===
I am motivated by The Economist's cover article to yet again raise the point that this conflict should be a war. The 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict is a conflict. This is a war under ceasefire. Can we finally join the large number of media outlets who describe this as a war and finally call it by its name?--Cerejota 09:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support "2006 Israel-Lebanon war". A Google News search finds considerably more stories referring to the "Lebanon war" than the "Lebanon conflict". Also, I think we need to distinguish it from the "background noise" of the ongoing cross-border clashes that preceded the 12 July casus belli. Some in the Israeli media seem to be referring to it as the "Second Lebanon War", but we'll have to see if this usage catches on. -- ChrisO 19:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Your suggestion is consistent with the Military History Project's naming convention, which would suggest something like "Israel-Lebanon conflict (2006)".  TheronJ 22:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about the name of the article

message: I am motivated by The Economist's cover article to yet again raise the point that this conflict should be a war. The 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict is a conflict. This is a war under ceasefire. Can we finally join the large number of media outlets who describe this as a war and finally call it by its name?--Cerejota 09:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support "2006 Israel-Lebanon war". A Google News search finds considerably more stories referring to the "Lebanon war" than the "Lebanon conflict". Also, I think we need to distinguish it from the "background noise" of the ongoing cross-border clashes that preceded the 12 July casus belli. Some in the Israeli media seem to be referring to it as the "Second Lebanon War", but we'll have to see if this usage catches on. -- ChrisO 19:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Title again

message: I find the format "2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict" as used in the page names of many current events articles to be absolutely appalling in terms of readability. It would be far more encyclopaedic to use a format such as Israel-Lebanon conflict of 2006. The existing title is fairly meaningless in the English language, while my suggestion is at least a proper English language construction.
zoney  ♣ talk 22:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your suggestion is consistent with the Military History Project's naming convention, which would suggest something like "Israel-Lebanon conflict (2006)".  TheronJ 22:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of year in article title 

message: Almost half of the size of this article consists of references, and there are often several references in a paragraph that cover the same thing. Please remove any such double references you see. And when changing the text because of additional information in a new reference, replace anny old references with the new one, if the new one equally well covers what the old ones were reference for.  Thomas Blomberg 22:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference mania

message: Many newspapers covering this conflict, among them New York Times and Daily Star in Beirut, very quickly move their web news articles to their pay server, thus making it impossible to for anyone to read them unless you're willing to pay money. Please have this in mind when selecting references. Thomas Blomberg 22:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Avoid pay-site references

message: Something should be done with this article, because somebody is trying to plant there some "information" he would not be able to plant here. Flayer 12:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What infromation? ehudshapira 00:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Zar'it-Ayta ash-Shab incident]] 

message: I question the relevance of including Amnesty International's concerns about the health detriment caused by depleted uranium. They seem poorly founded. The lead of normal bullets is just as toxic as uranium, and any residual radiation will be low enough to be insignificant, due to the fact that the uranium is depleted. Removal of this part would also help the length problem. TBSchemer 23:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you should read up on depleted uranium, starting with a short piece in Jane's: Depleted uranium: the health debate, and from there move on to The Guardian: Scientists urge shell clear-up to protect civilians. The health hazards surrounding DU-tipped shells are controversial. Politicians, the military and the manufacturers originally assured everybody that they were totally harmless to anyone except those hit by them (although US Army at the same time produced information videos warning its soldiers about the hazards when handling DU material, see ). However, slowly but surely there are more and more scientific reports that question this statement, linking the usage of DU weapons to Gulf War syndrome and the enormous increase in cancer cases among children in Iraq after the first Gulf War to DU weapons. This in turn has caused some of the initial supporters of DU-tipped shells to have second thoughts. Considering that DU-tipped shells have only been in use for 15 years, and that use has been rather limited compared to the use of conventional shells during the period, we should be careful to dismiss concerns about their possible environmental effects. Thomas Blomberg 01:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Environmental consequences

message: "Kidman condemns Hamas, Hezbollah":, not news, but still: Israel set war plan more than a year ago Strategy was put in motion as Hezbollah began increasing its military strength --Striver 04:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't know what your talking about (do you ever?). Any reasonable country has a plan of action in case of war with a possible enemy, it doesn't mean anything. The United States probably has a plan in case they go to War with Russia, it doesn't mean that they are planing to or they want to fight them, it just means they don't want to be caught off guard if relations go sour really fast. Israel had an enemy pointing thousands of missiles at its northern border that was launching raids every few months into its territory, it would have been both irresponsible and simply stupid if they didn't have an action plan for a possible wider conflict.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is enough to take a look at his user page to see what motivates him. Allek "Illuminati" with Magen David. I'd rather say that he eagerly awaits Mahdi to come, though not necessarily wants to stir up world chaos manually with dropping nukes on everyone who is not in a dhimmi state in the Middle East in order to hasten his return (like Ahmadinejad wants), but note that his user name is just an English translation of "Mujahid" مجاهد --Aleverde 12:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stick to the topic, or exchange MSN if you want to bad mouth me. --Striver 01:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "topic" is just another conspiracy theory of a far-left, Islam-ignorant, cherry-picking journalist, on how the evil Israel was "anyway" planning some super duper attack, even before Hizballah's provocations. It is not even an frontpage article - it's an opinion section. And it is well known that Muslim mind is addicted to conspiracies - from Jews to the West and back to Jews (and I am not generalizing, just read the Arab/Iranian press). I could say in the same manner "Israeli incursions stem from Hizballah raids" and go back all the way to 2005 and 2000 kidnapping raids, to 1982 and from there to PLO shellings and so on. On your user page you are clearly alluding to the Jews as some worldwide conspiracy order, by the essence of your statements and declarations - your "Illuminati" with Magen David says it all. And how about "sons of pigs and apes" in some ancient book whose name I've just forgotten (oops)? Or "do not take Jews and Christians as awliya, they are only awliya to one another"? Talk about racism... So don't cry if you are get paid by the same coin. --Aleverde 09:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any admin reading this? --Striver 17:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any admin reading your saying that Israel is an "illegitimate" state (and that you support the stance of Iran, i.e. open threats to physically annihilate it), and your readiness to desecrate the memory of the Israeli dead by cursing them, is more than balancing here. See the apes thingy and the awliya thingy, and another one, and another one. And here's some juicy sahih hadith regarding Allah's policy with Jews. --Aleverde 18:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I know about freemasonry, and believe me, any freemasonry reference in the Muslim world is just an euphemism for Jews (much rarely for the West itself). I come from Eastern Europe where the same tendency prevails (aka "zhido-masonian conspiracy"). And that's why there is a thick allusion on that pic. Now Shi'a Islam is particularly hostile to the Jews (not Israelis or other stupid euphemism), so yes it is obvious. The main difference between me and Striver is that I am an atheist  and do not believe in imposing my views on others (though I do retain my right to live in a nation-state, like any other nation), and he is a "mumin" that would like to see Islam dominating the whole world - a doubtful concept, I'd say. I personally would like to see the two-state solution, but for muminin like Striver that's unacceptable. You may read the Quran and the Hadith and see in clearly. Remember Khaibar? --Aleverde 18:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I also understand why my sentiments are not good-looking here and look unencyclopedic. But, you see, I came to this page only for one matter: to debate about the politically-correct "capture" euphemism for Hizballah's abduction (and I think I have clearly proven that it is not a regular military capture). And what I see? A talk page flooded by politically-correct (and not factually-correct), and sometimes openly hostile comments with good portion of conspiracism, no consensus achieved on "captured" and still this stupid euphemism keeps on appearing; so yes, it is natural for me to react this way. Especially when there is more than one attempt to portrait Israel as an agressor in this clash, which is clearly not the case. I have been living under sirens over a month, and now I see people making up fantasies about how the Joos were planning some attack anyway! Now that's something that is pretty pissing off, isn't it? --Aleverde 18:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: News

message: Under Results of the War, somebody has listed Iran as an Arab country!! This kind of silliness lends little credibility to the article. Within the population of Iran, 3% of the people are Arab. In other words, it would be similar to stating that the USA is, first and foremost, a Chinese country. Andrew Riddles 10:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As of 2005, overall Chinese investment in the US was close to $650 billion.  再见. —Viriditas | Talk 10:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Er... thanks for that. I was talking about the population proportions within a country and how the article looks when wiki expertise lists Iran as an Arab country.  Andrew Riddles 12:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course Iran is not an Arab country. 80 percent of population are Iranian-speaking peoples (Persians, Kurds, Balochis). --Aleverde 12:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed, Iran is not an Arab country.  Whenever simple errors such as these are spotted, it's best to rectify them on sight. MLA 14:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iran is listed as an Arab country

message: Returning to Tewfik's post - archived after only 8 hours (Mr lorek85 sir, how is that helpful to the discussion? Some of us have lives and contribute less often than every hour!) :
:How does the story change the timeline - do you/does he contend that it the conflict didn't start due to Hezbollah action? In any event, we don't include speculation, however famous its collector, as part of "what really happened," but just uncontroversial, widely reported facts. My repeated resistance stems from my concerns about the article's quality and size. Assuming that the passage still deserves a mention, it wouldn't be in the main article, but rather in the subarticles. Cheers, TewfikTalk 16:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Hersh article (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact) is now fairly widely reported in western media, and warants inclusion. Tewfik, which subarticle would you not object to it being put in? Fig 15:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hersh article is an anti-Israeli conspiracy theory with no solid proofs whatsoever. But well, we already heard that Joos were behind 9/11 on Al-Manar, so why bother. --Aleverde 15:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I did not say this, I said that this article is nothing more than another conspiracy theory. And such it is. Also there are clear examples of Western press that are not so different from al-Manar when it comes to Israel/Joos. Al-Guardian for example. --Aleverde 18:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Be it a consp theory or not is not the question. The stuff is widely reported as per Fig. -- Szvest 18:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course but as far as I understand he wants to change the timeline of the conflict according to it (i. e. the evil Israel was planning some super duper attack even before), not just report it - and that is wrong. --Aleverde 18:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Aleverde, it is relevent to the timeline since it could represent preparations. Exactly where it goes, I'm not sure, which is why I asked Tewfik (who seems to object strongly) where he wouldnt object to it going. Keep your own hysteria ("Evil Israel", etc) to yourself, it isnt required here. Fig 22:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh and I thought that hysteria is a trait of those who compose conspiracy theories. Anyway, it does not belong to the timeline bacause first, it is not proven in ANY way, and second, Hizballah officials themselves stated that they were planning the attack for 5 months. To remind you, consp theories are also not required here. --Aleverde 09:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aleverde, you obviously have a POV problem with this. There is a difference between investigative journalism and conspiracy theories; It seems that your problem is that anything that you dont like is labeled as "conspiracy theories". Strangely enough, that's what a lot of people said about the My Lai massacre and Abu Ghraib prison when Seymour Hersh exposed them aswell. Problem is, he is one of the best investigators in the world, and he turned out to be right in both cases - that is why he is a Pulitzer Prize winner, and why the story warrants inclusion. As I suggested to Tewfik, perhaps you should read those links and understand this. It's becoming perfectly obvious that both sides had been preparing for this confrontation for some time, waiting for a cue to trigger it. If that conflicts with your desired story for the course of events, then perhaps you should take a break from editing it until you come to terms with it. PS Hersh is Jewish and has no anti-Israeli agenda. Fig 10:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know who Seymour Hersh is. Winning a Pulitzer for exposing My Lai does not mean that the present article is an "investigative journalism", and not another lefty anti-Israeli hysteria with a clear flavor of conspiracy theory. Nothing is "perfectly obvious". Israel had more than enough "pretexts" to invade Lebanon since 2000, including the killing and kidnapping of 3 soldiers plus Tannenbaum, then foiled kidnapping attempt at Ghajar not a long ago. "Strangely enough", it preferred to sit behind the border for 6 years and let Hizballah arm itself with new long-range weapons. Also, you saying that Hersh is Jewish and has no anti-Israeli agenda is not correct at all. Homsky is Jewish too, but he is clearly a lefty self-hater exactly as Seymour Hersh is. Second, when Hersh brings us some valid (and not speculative) reference for his allegations, then we might deal with it and call it "exposure". Till now, NOTHING has been proved and NOTHING has been "exposed". It remains just that - an allegation, nothing more. On the other side, Hizballah openly said themselves that they have been planning that raid for a long time. You say: If that conflicts with your desired story for the course of events.... You see, I think that the true situation conflicts with YOUR desired story for the course of events, and that's why you want to push this unproven allegation into the timeline so desperately. You know nothing about what Israel establishment is and how it behaves; all you get from your lefty media is nothing more than a overblown pre-1967 image that has faded away long time ago. If you lived in Israel you'd know how lousy its political establishment is (that does not include army though), how irresponsible it is and how truly "Levantine" it is. It is so laughable when anti-Israeli guys try to present every conflict that Israel participates in as Israel's fault, even if the aggression was clearly done by another side! You are so desperate to "prove" it that you will push here anything that might support your point of view, be it Hersh's allegations or any other allegation. As long as it remains "allegation" it has no place in the timeline. Had Israel "prepared" properly for this war, the situation wouldn't look like it is now. --Aleverde 11:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aleverde, you've painted your opinions in primary colours there. Ranting about "lefty anti-Israeli hysteria" and "lefty self-hating" Jews shows us all where you are coming from. I see from your Talk-page you have a history of that kind of stuff, and much worse too, so you'll have to forgive me if I dont take you too seriously. Fig 14:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, apart of you being unable to prove absolutely nothing about this allegation, there is nothing new here. Where do I come from? Well not from Southern US as you might think. I come from Northern Israel, my "serious" friend, and I know many things that you don't, first-hand. I was expieriencing fierce anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe since age of 3, when I even did not know what a "Jew" is, and then came here; so you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your pathetic, lefty, conspiracist rants too seriously. Especially given the fact that you come from a country that has contributed greatly to Israel's creation - no, not by Balfour's declaration, but by refusing to bomb death camps and by closing its doors before Jewish refugees in WWII (the only refugees that the world has never carried about). Yes I have a chip on my shoulder against Europeans in general and Spaniards in particular, but then who are you to judge me from your comfortable ivory tower? --Aleverde 14:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: PS. Don't even pretend you know something on Jewish self-hatred. This topic is too complicated for someone who hasn't been there. Continue to feed on al-Guardian and al-Independent with regurgitated blood libels till you learn something real. --Aleverde 14:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seymour Hersh allegation 

message: Now that the latest ceaserfire has been broken, we should consider moving the July-August portion of the conflict to a new article. Then we can have an article here summarizing the full scope of the 2006 portion of the conflict, from the April Tel Aviv bombing, to the May assassination, to the July raid and subsequent month long conflict, to the current late-August attacks, and whatever comes next. Otherwise, this article is confusing, is going to get too long, and the scope doesn't make a lot of sense. -- Kendrick7 00:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite the violations it appears to still be holding. And what April-May? ehudshapira 00:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the point -- shouldn't this article cover all of 2006? -- Kendrick7 00:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no. There were clashes since 2000, but nothing as big as this. This is definitely a matter that should stand separately. And I don't think there should be any mention of "previous six week ceasefire" -- any temporary calmness before was just one in a long series of ups and downs, i.e., nothing notable.How's the TA suicide bombing related? Also, I think the history section should be much more minimal, or even perhaps just a link to another article. ehudshapira 01:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, when you say "as big as this" you are talking about the July-August conflict right"? I agree it should be a separate article. Either way, the previous cease-fire should be in the lead to provide context for a reader who might not be aware that the July-August conflict is, like you say, just "one in a long series of ups and downs". -- Kendrick7 01:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that the Lebanese Daily Star newspaper is calling it the "July War". Have any other names emerged for it so far in the media? -- ChrisO 02:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think this article should be "Conflicts between Lebanon and Israel during 2006", but the specific conflict (which took place in 2006) between the Cross border raid in July and the ceasefire (if it holds) and the cessation of hostilities (if it doesn't). Smaller skirmishes can either have their own article, not be mentioned, or go somewhere else. The may ceasefire isn't really that notable, IMO, and it's mention in the history section is more than enough. Iorek85 02:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so by what definition do we date the conflict to 12 July? Just by the Israeli response? -- Kendrick7 08:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the cross border raid by Hezbollah. It is what sparked the current conflict, and, as you say, the Israeli response. The may ceasfire isn't directly related, nor is the capture of that person in Gaza as some others have claimed. Iorek85 08:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: well, that's lame. -- Kendrick7 10:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Temporal Scope of Article

message: Malaysia and Indonesia has pledged a batallion each for the UN mission but Israel object. Should we add the fact here? __earth (Talk) 14:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the Israeli editors would let it last long. Interesting fact, though. Got a reference? Iorek85 23:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can tell you that Malaysia and Indonesia have a lot of fighting going on between religions in their countries. Jemaah Islamiyah, Abu Sayyaf Group etc, Muslim militant groups that basically take over half the island. I would like to see a source though to see the reason given. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zer0faults (talk • contribs).
If this is sourced it should be included somewhere (I'm not sure such a factoid should be in main article though - maybe ceasefire sub?). TewfikTalk 15:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  United Nations force, Israel, Malaysia and Indonesia 

message: I think we need to change the section head "Results of the conflict", as this conflict is far from over yet. I agree that having the section is valid, but its head needs to be changed, as we're talking about initial reviews of the conflict after the ceasefire - so I'll change it to that. Thomas Blomberg 15:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This conflict as a whole is not over yet. --Aleverde 16:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Results of the conflict"