Talk:Stepan Bandera

message: @HanKim20, I don't see any explanation for these reverts . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: ManyAreasExpert, did you remove "Category:Ukrainian collaborators with Nazi Germany" with the motivation "Article says it's propaganda"? Bandera's collaboration with Nazi Germany is not questioned in the article. Mhorg (talk) 15:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Bandera's collaboration with Nazi Germany is not described in the article. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: May be try searching for "Nazi" in the article? Ymblanter (talk) 08:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is anything specific why don't quote it here. The best I can find is that "Ukrainians from the East condemn him as Nazi collaborator". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:35, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Really, I am not sure how you are going to convince anyone that the article does not describe Bandera's Nazi collaboration at this level of argument. Everybody here can read, and it is trivial to see it does. Ymblanter (talk) 13:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The article body includes 11 mentions of "collaboration" in various forms. One is mentioned in a message above, then followsBandera collaborated closely with Richard YaryAt the congress, decisions were made to stop any open collaboration with the GermansBandera later denied in conversations with the CIA that he had been involved in the formation of these organisations or any collaboration with Germany Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations was founded, with which Bandera also collaboratedZP UHVR, collaborated with the US intelligenceneither the OUN nor the UPA can be viewed as only ‘fascist collaborators’Post-war Soviet history propagated the image of Bandera and the UPA as exclusively fascist collaborators and xenophobesmillions of Ukrainians were killed but some collaboratedPro-Russian activists claimed: "Those people in Kyiv are Bandera-following Nazi collaborators."used rhetoric that was similar to Soviet era policy of equating the development of Ukrainian national identity with Nazism due to Bandera's collaborationThe last sentence cannot be found in source, and I'm going to correct it. edit: found the needed sentences in the sourceWhat of these you find the best supporting the question raised? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This one does the job even if nothing else were in the article (and there is quite a lot of other things): On 23 June 1941, one day after the German attack on the Soviet Union, Bandera sent a letter to Adolf Hitler arguing the case for an independent Ukraine. On 30 June 1941, with the arrival of Nazi troops in Ukraine, the OUN-B unilaterally declared an independent Ukrainian state ("Act of Renewal of Ukrainian Statehood"). The proclamation pledged a cooperation of the new Ukrainian state with Nazi Germany under the leadership of Hitler. The declaration was accompanied by violent pogroms. Ymblanter (talk) 15:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are facts. And it's not up to us to conclude that these mean Bandera was, or was not, and to what extent, and on what time period, a Nazi collaborator. The article also says Nazis imprisoned him in a concentration camp, does it makes him any less collaborator?Now, Liebe's book has the whole section titled "Collaboration" something. It's not like the article should reject this. It's just as of now, nobody cared to put a clear description of a problem into the article.(I scrolled the section, meanwhile, got an impression it's mostly on the OUN, not Bandera himself). ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Bandera was the head of the corresponding section of OUN, and if he was collaborating with Nazi he was clearly a Nazi collaborator. It is just a plain fact. I do not see what needs to be discussed here. Ymblanter (talk) 16:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Note also that this is not the Russian Wikipedia, and edit-warring in articles on contentious topics (WP:CT) can result in a swift block. Ymblanter (talk) 13:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Ymblanter the user removed all (Israeli) sources claiming that Bandera is a collaborator. In addition, he added the opinion of Maryna Shevtsova, a Ukrainian researcher who is an expert in the LGBT field. Mhorg (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, what she wrote here borders fringe territory. Mellk (talk) 03:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

text: @Mhorg, regarding your last edits. WP:NEWSORG Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. You need something more reliable then news articles for such a strong and at the same time vague "During his collaboration with Nazi Germany" claim.Moreover, the lead should summarize the article body, and there is none of such in there. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest unexplained reverts