Talk:Pottery/Archive 2

message: *Where is the oldest pottery in the world? In Japan, where some of the pottery dates back right into the last Ice Age..., Current World Archaeology 
*It therefore astonished archeologists to discover that the world's oldest known pottery was made in Japan 12,700 years ago. For the first time in human experience, people had watertight containers readily available in any desired shape., Jared Diamond 
*The earliest known pottery comes from Japan, and is dated to about 10,500BC., The Times Atlas of Archaeology (ISBN 0723003068)
*Clay figurines are known from the earliest human occupations, but clay vessels, pottery vessels used for storing, cooking and serving food, and carrying water were first manufactured at least 12-13,000 years ago., Ceramics Today 
*The oldest fired pottery so far discovered dates from Japan's Early Jomon period, which began about 12,700 years ago. , Peter Lane , Contemporary Studio Porcelain (ISBN 0812237722)
*The earliest example of ceramics so far discovered dates from 27,000BC and is a 'Venus' figure found at Dolni Vestonice, Czech Republic. Pottery (ceramic vessels) date from 10,700BC..., Norris McWhirter's Book of Historical Records (ISBN 1852278943)
*The earliest pottery known so far appears in Jomon. Remember that the technology of fired clay artifacts was known, since people made figurines in the Upper Paleolithic, perhaps 25,000 years ago. But then it disappeared until earthenware vessels appeared in Japan., Introduction to Archaeology, Nancy White 
*As a result, this earthenware in the Fukui third layer has become the earliest pottery in the world., Minnesota State University 
*Jomon means "cord pattern," for these people designed cord patterns on their pottery—the oldest of its kind in human history., Richard Hooker, Washington State University 
*The earliest pottery appears in the Mesolithic Period in Asia, specifically in the early Jomon Period of Japan, ca. 10,000 B.C., Ervan G Garrison, Techniques in Archaeological Geology (ISBN 354043822X)
*Pottery is radiocarbon dated to about 12,700 b.p. in a good cultural and stratigraphic context at Fukui Cave,...So far, it remains the earliest well-dated pottery in the world, Barnett and Hoopes, The Emergence of Pottery (ISBN 1560985178)
*Jomon of Japan: The World's Oldest Pottery (ISBN 0710304757)
Hopefully, this puts this issue to rest. --Sean Brunnock 18:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're saying that archaeologists are not experts in ancient pottery? I don't think you get to decide who is an expert on pottery and who is not. Furthermore, I don't believe it is your decision to determine which references are "strong" and which are "weak". --Sean Brunnock 21:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Hate to shake ya!! In Archaeology -- nothing is ever put to rest.  I was taught years ago that Jamon was the earliest culture to produce functional clay items, and I am generally comfortable with that assertion and most of your references above.  At the same time, I am academicly excited to examine new finds, new assertions and new theories.  And I am willing to examine them -- as critically as my education and experience allows.  Our Wiki article should reflect the generally accepted opinion plus the fact that archaeological research continues and that new material may eventually supersede the established theories.  So I would support and, help write as time permits, a section about new discoveries and theories.   WBardwin 00:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Archaeologists have had plenty of time to evaluate Venus figurines. They're not pottery. --Sean Brunnock 12:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jomon pottery is the oldest yet found 

message: See Talk:Ruins in the Gulf of Cambay for details. --Sean Brunnock 20:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pottery" from the Gulf of Cambay is not pottery 

message: Well Brunock. The matter for the earliest pottery in the world found in Gulf of Cambay is not closed for me. Although I accept that proves are solid on Jomon pottery, it does not mean that future works in Gulf of Cambay could not shed more light. The discussion on Ruins of Gulf of Cambay is not over. I think you try to put on the screen only solid findings as it is Jomon. I understand. But in Cambay there are many aspects that have to be discussed. I would suggest an international team, maybe from UNESCO that could take part in underwater exploration and maybe excavation. There are many features that NIOT put into consideration, only one of them is pottery.
:Wikipedia only reports, not researches. Rmhermen 23:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why to stop discussion on Gulf of Cambay ancient pottery? 

message: Hello all,
Just found this:
“Beginning sometime after 14,000 B.P., technology was adopted allowing the efficient use of lower ranked resources such as seeds, signaled by the appearance of grinding tools and pottery in southern Siberia, Mongolia, and China “ The paper gives six references for these finds
:Reference: Microlithic Technology in Northern Asia: A Risk-Minimizing Strategy of the Late Paleolithic and Early Holocene by R.G. Elston and P.J. Brantingham published in Thinking Small: Global Perspectives on Microlithization Archeological Papers of the American Anthropological Association 2002
Regards,
Andy
: 14,000 BP = 12,000 BC. Cheers. --Sean Brunnock 17:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yet another 'oldest' pottery!

message: Dear Brunnock,
Please could you correct your references as how you have listed some of them is incorrect, for example: 
*Kamaki & Serizawa 1967
*Ashmore and Sharer 2000: 247
Proper citations are needed, which include the journal or book from where they are taken
Regards,
Andy
: I don't think I ever cited them. --Sean Brunnock 13:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh that. I was quoting a webpage at the University of Denver. I provided a link to the page which has a full citation. --Sean Brunnock 14:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Who are Kamaki & Serizawa? In the main article, I cited Discover and Current World Archaeology. Both citations adhere to Wikipedia:Citing sources. --Sean Brunnock 14:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Doesn't the word pottery come from "pot", i.e. a vessel? Etymology clearly expresses the core meaning of the word. That's kind of common sense. Of course the usage of the word pottery may sometimes be extended (as happens with many other words) to define the material type (as a sort of ceramic), or objects made of a similar material (one often sees the expression "pottery object"), but that's a rather abusive usage. Shouldn't the definition be something like: "The word pottery first and foremost refers to pots (i.e. vessels), but may sometimes be used by extension to define various objects of the same material." PHG 13:38, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: Recent efforts to place information on what appears to be a brand or commercial pottery venture from Vietnam have been reverted.  However, the material may have some merit as a beginning of a Vietnamese pottery article.  Does the anon contributor have more information?  WBardwin 04:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vinapottery

message: Hello 213.42.21.75,
Thank you for your recent contribution ‘Evolution of Glazing technique’, I think information on the development of lustres is important. However I would like to make a few suggestions:
1.) It seems too long on a single subject to be included in a general article. Could you cut the length of the text in the pottery article, and then link it to a newly created article which includes all your current text
2.) Include other significant contributions from the Islamic world such as turquoise glazes and decoration using calligraphy & geometric patterns
3.) Include some references
Regards,
Andy
:I agree with all of the points Andy makes, especially with number 1.  It would be better to create a new article named something that is more descriptive of the actual content, like 'Muslim Contributions to Glazing Technique,' and link to it from the revised section, 'Evolution of Glazing technique.'  In the revised section it would be nice to hear a little more about Asian (and other group's) early contributions to glazing techniques so that the article is more well rounded.  By the way, it is kind of refreshing to hear about some positive historic contributions by Muslims.
Sincerely,
Berneegirl 21:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evolution of Glazing technique

message: I've just deleted the following links from the Pottery article, for the reasons stated.
Indian Blue Pottery (commercial link).
Pottery list (links to page that has no obvious pottery content. Also appears to be written in the Czech language).
Glazed pottery manufacturer (commercial link).
How sanitaryware is made (very little of pottery interest here).
pottery school UK (commercial link).
pottery school germany (appears to be a commercial link to a German-language site).
Discover a Hobby: Online guide for learning about Ceramics / Pottery (links to a page with significant commercial content).
Regards, Nick. Nick 17:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commercial and other links deleted 

message: There are a tremendous amount of links. Are these all necessary or useful as it does make for a untidy looking article? Also what is the policy on linking to commercial sites as recently this one, http://www.justartpottery.com, has just appeared.
ThanxTheriac
Hello Theriac, the Wikipedia policy on external links is here: Wikipedia:External_links. The justpottery link that's recently appeared can be blown away, pronto. I've recently destroyed a number of commercial links that have found their way onto the Pottery pages, see above. Regards, Nick. Nick 17:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Nick, Thanks. If you have an interest in ceramics you may be interested to join the debate that's going on at Talk:Ceramics(art)Theriac 18:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: Hello Nick, I have slight modified some of your recent edits, including
*Clay -> clay body
*heating -> heat to high temperature
*harden -> induce reactions that lead to permanent changes that include an increase in strength
* Jiggering and jolleying 'semi-skilled' is more representative of the operatives (though I note manual operativs can be highly skilled)
* Flat & hollow ware can be made by roller-head machine
*Sanitaryware is not made on RAM presses
*Some internal links on the list of decoration tchniques
*Capitalise RAM as its a company & trade name
Theriac 13:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tweaks

message: Hello Everyone, before changing I would like to comment about the statement “When glazing, it is always necessary to make and fire a tester, because the glaze turns to a very different colour when fired: e.g., forest moss looks brown unfired but actually turns green after firing.
1. This may be practiced by some but it is not by all. It far too dictatorial to suggest “it is always”
2. “Tester” is not a universal recognised term. Changing to test piece would be better
3. “Forest moss” is a poor description. I assume it refers to a glaze rather than a type of moss but this is not clear from the text. A rewording, such as to note fired colours can be different to unfired, would be better. ThaxTheriac 20:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tester