Talk:Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma

message: "Her conversion to Catholicism meant that she had to renounce her right of succession to the Dutch throne"
That is not correct. There is no impediment for the monarch or a person who can inherit the throne to become a Catholic or a member of any other religion. Irene lost her right to the throne because she married without there being a law to give her permission. Carlos claim to the Spanish throne was the central issue of the controversy. I'm changing this to "She lost her right of succession to the Dutch throne because the government refused to enact a law permitting the marriage, and her mother could not even go fetch her because the government advised her against it. The issue that prevented the government from making a law permitting the marriage was Carlos claim of the Spanish throne. The Dutch government saw international political difficulties arising from a possible heir to the Dutch throne holding a controversial claim to the throne of a foreign state. Also the Dutch Constitution does not allow the monarch to carry a foreign Crown.".Gerard von Hebel 20:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irene's right of succession to the Dutch throne 

message: Baptized Hugo Xavier Marie Sixte Louis Robert Jean Georges Benoît Michel, he later took the name Charles (Carlos) before all his baptismal names.70.161.208.216 13:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Redundancy deleted

message: "He was baptized Hugues Marie Sixte Robert Louis Jean Georges Benoît Michel. On 28 June 1963 he was officially renamed Charles Hugues, by judgement of the court of appeal of La Seine, France."
This suggests that the names "Marie Sixte Robert Louis Jean Georges Benoît Michel" were dropped in 1963. AFAIK only the name "Charles" was added, so after 1963 his full name would be "Charles Hughues Marie Sixte Robert Louis Jean Georges Benoît Michel". Känsterle 15:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: As the heir of the Bourbons, he's the pretender to France as well as spain. Benkenobi18 (talk) 12:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he is not. The ultimate heir to the House of France is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. Spain and Parma were/are held by junior branches of the House of France. Charles 19:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He is a direct descendant of Charles X, though. —194.46.248.76 (talk) 11:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

text: There are at least two pretenders to the throne of France, the other being the Count of Paris; whether Carlos Hugo is a third depends on what he pretends, not on our opinions of the validity of the pretence. All Spanish claims to the throne of France were renounced by the Treaty of the Pyrenees, but he may well ignore this - many do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Pretender to France

message: VegasWikian, there was no consensus for the move Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma → Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma. An administrator moved it back to Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma and relisted the move to see if there would be consensus. You performed the move Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma → Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma yet there was no consensus for that in the first place... Can you please move it back to the original title, not the one which, right now, has no consensus and was closed prematurely? Thank you. Seven Letters 02:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: After the last edit of mine I reread the discussions and looked at the external links. I believe that there is consensus for the move that was done. The previous discussion was very hard to follow since everyone did not indent their replies. If you really believe that there is a consensus to leave the page where it was, feel free to renominate for a move. But as I said, in rereading the discussion, there is a consensus to move supported by external sources. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You did, however, go over another administrator. There was no consensus for a move. A margin of one with no discussion does not result in a move now, does it? Seven Letters 02:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Oh my...

message: To my knowledge he never claimed the Throne of Parma, I could not find sources of that… Is there some Parmesan movement to restore the defunct Throne of Parma? He only claimed to be the Head of the House of Bourbon-Parma. And what he indeed did was claiming the Throne of Spain with the Carlist movement. However, they still have/use the Parmesan titles, which is not the same as the throne. It was quite common during the time of the Holy Roman Empire that when a duke or prince lost the throne or sold his territory, he continued the use of the title. The title and throne are two separate issues. This 'de facto' tradition is still continued, however there is only no 'de jure' basis left for it anymore in Italy. I have a question: could the letters patent of creation of the title still be in existance and be in possession of the Bourbon-Parma’s? Who was by the way the fons honorum that created the title Duke of Parma in first instance?
Additionally, it occurs to me that Heads of former reigning royal houses use their titles as a some sort of "courtesy title"? Or am I wrong?
Diodecimus (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The fons honorum, as I understand it, was the Pope.  The first duke of Parma was Paul III's illegitimate son. john k (talk) 13:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Throne versus Title 

message: It doesn't seem clear that there's a consensus to move back to Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma (although it's worth noting that the article on his son is now at Carlos, Duke of Parma).  But would anybody really object if we moved to Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma?  That would at least be in line with other members of the family. john k (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't opppose that, though I wouldn't oppose moving back to Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma either. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 15:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd prefer Prince Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma so as to include princely title which some want; and the ducal title which others want. This is also supported by naming conventions (WP:NCNT#Royals with a substantive title). If not I'd rather see Carlos Hugo, Prince of Bourbon-Parma over Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma. - dwc lr (talk) 16:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But would that be correct? Didn't he cease to be "prince of Bourbon-Parma" when he became "Duke of Parma"? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 17:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe he kept the princely title, the death notice on the official Bourbon-Parma site lists princely and ducal title. . - dwc lr (talk) 17:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn’t you all notice that the serious and official sources describe him with his princely title and his ducal title as well, thus Prince Carlos Hugo (of Bourbon-Parma), Duke of Parma and Piacenza? Or is this an imagination of me? It's rather strange, since he was the Duke, why was he (himself) still using his princely title also? It makes more sense if you see the ducal title of today as a substantive title or courtesy title, what dwc lr said before. Royals with a substantive or courtesy title are also described with their princely title or their other title, or both together. Titular dukes are not the reigning dukes anymore; they are merely described with this title out of courtesy, so maybe it became a courtesy title? I know, it is not entirely the same, but the eldest sons of British peers are also described with their courtesy title, although there is no de jure basis for this, it is a merely a de facto custom, which is commonly practiced and accepted internationally (and at Wikipedia as well). Diodecimus (talk) 18:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

text: I do wish you would have been bold and moved it back to the original title. CH is being referred to as Duke of Parma (and Piacenza). Seven Letters 22:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it was sitting happily at the original title for many years without any bother. - dwc lr (talk) 01:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid I must very strenuously object to this move, for several reasons. First, it repeats the problem which has prolonged this process inordinately, and inflamed it to the point of wheelwarring: On July 25th, one administrator addressed another, "...please revert your closing of this requested move as it seems to me that the move was premature to close it particularly as without the IP opinion there was no clear consensus, and the person who made the move was involved in the debate." So now we once again have a move made by someone who was involved in this debate, yet again prompting any who disagree to challenge the process. Second, July 25th was also the last time anyone expressly objected to inclusion of "Duke of Parma" for this man's bio -- that's a month ago, when he was still alive. Thirdly, on August 14th I summarized, "Clearly, there's less consensus here for either 'Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma' or 'Carlos Hugo, Prince of Bourbon-Parma', than there is for 'Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma' -- which is where this article was until July 12th, and where most of us who've expressed themselves in this discussion are comfortable seeing it restored." I don't see in subsequent discussion that anything has changed on use of the ducal title. But I do see re-iterations of the clearly-stated view that if the article were to be moved, "Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma" is not our first preference. So why has it been moved to a title which evoked less support than the pending move, given that there's no rush to act without consensus? This really feels unfair. FactStraight (talk) 03:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If people want to continue to discuss the location of the article, that's fine.  I moved on the basis that Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma has no discernible support.  john k (talk) 04:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

text: I'll add that I'd be perfectly happy with moves to Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma and Xavier, Duke of Parma, but in the interim, I see no reason to rest at a completely stupid title when there's a perfectly reasonable title available.  Does anyone actually prefer Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma to Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma, or are you just objecting because I didn't move to Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma? john k (talk) 04:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in favour of a move to "Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma". That is in accordance with naming conventions and with common usage for this individual. Noel S McFerran (talk) 22:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree that the page should not be moved while the page name is still under discussion. I'm not fussed what the page name is providing reliable sources support it (and BTW I don't think that most of the websites alluded to higher up this section are reliable), but I also think John that you are digging a hole for your self here. If this page is at Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma, then why not incorporate Prince, King, Queen, at the front of all such pages ... ?  -- PBS (talk) 22:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I’m not sure how much more discussion will take as a lot has been said already; I see support for restoring the title Duke of Parma though. In the naming conventions only kings/queens/( excluding HRE and German)emperors do not have the title at the front name, or anywhere. The majority of princes/dukes have the title before the name, unless they were a ruler, or head of a princely house when it is given after the name. The old name (Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma) for this article was never supported by naming conventions. I really think we should restore the ducal title to this, and his fathers articles now, and bring this mammoth discussion to a perfectly reasonable conclusion and all move on. - dwc lr (talk) 01:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I understand what PBS is getting at.  "Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma" is the title format followed for most members of this family.  See, for example, Prince Sixtus of Bourbon-Parma and Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma.  If these gentlemen, who never headed the house, get the honorific, I don't see why Carlos Hugo should be at Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma, without any title at all.  "Prince X of Y" is, in fact, a very common way to title articles for people holding royal titles that are not unique to one "head of house."  Carlos Hugo was head of house, but "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" was not a unique title that only he held, and was not, indeed, his title of pretense, so it would be inappropriate to use Carlos Hugo, Prince of Bourbon-Parma.  I tend to slightly prefer Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma to the current title, but I thought Prince Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma was better than Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma, and when I proposed the change there didn't seem to be anyone who particularly preferred the latter title, so I moved it.  As I said, we should continue to discuss whether to move back to Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma.  The Telegraph obituary provides a pretty solid instance of English language usage of that form.  Many other sources use the current title.  I didn't move because I thought this should necessarily be the permanent title, but just on the basis that it was a better title than the one the article was then at, and seemed likely to not be particularly controversial, because it's basically the same (note that Carlos Hugo's father is currently at Prince Xavier of Bourbon-Parma, and nobody seems to care.  I moved it there a couple weeks ago from Prince Xavier of Parma, which seemed ridiculous to me; PMA had moved the article some time before from the previous location, Xavier, Duke of Parma.  It certainly makes no sense to have all these heads of the house of Parma at so many different titles; we ought to come up with a single standard and figure out what it is. john k (talk) 03:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: All heads of the House of Bourbon-Parma use the title Duke of Parma, all of the heads should be at “Name, Duke of Parma” which the majority are, with the exception of Carlos Hugo and his father, which should also be moved back as there was never a discussion to change from “Xavier, Duke of Parma” in the first place. - dwc lr (talk) 17:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Look PBS, to say it bluntly: this page should never had been moved earlier to the "Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma" in the first instance. There was certainly no consensus for that move and that was a clear violation of the Wikipedia guidelines. The fact that someone unilaterally changed the page name (under the false assumption that there was a consensus, which was clearly not), and than blocked any possibility to let it be changed back by others, because they considered it a violation of the Wikipedia guidelines (but the move was backed by an absent-minded Wikipedia administrator), that made me very angry. I really don't understand why a Wikipedia administrator allowed that move anyhow. And subsequently, the people that liked the original title "Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma" and opposed the first move, has to defend why it should go back! Wow, that is the world like up side down! In my opinion, to have a fair debate and to obey to the Wikipedia rules, we have to restore the title to it original one, before the first move (on 12 July, falsely made by Cusio) that sparkled this whole discussion, thus back to: Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma. And that should be the starting point in the discussion to see if there is a consensus to change that title. In my opinion: I think that that "Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma" is the correct name.  Diodecimus (talk) 03:17, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name again 

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