Talk:John of Brienne

message: If John was born around 1148, then he would have been nearly 90 years old by the time of his death around 1237. It is noted that his grandfather, Walter II, Count of Brienne, had a son named Jean de Brienne who was the abbott of Beaulieu from 1156 to 1192 and may have been confused with John of Brienne, the King of Jerusalem, Especially on the presumed birth-year of 1148. King John of Brienne was probably born in 1170 or 1175, as he was one of the 5 children of Erard II, Count of Brienne. Sundehul 18:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  John's year of birth is probably 1170 of 1175 

message: After now 5 requests for a source supporting this claim that J. de Brienne has been titled "duke of Philippopolis" (i.e., a source that indeed DOES support this claim, not a source that is vaguely related to the subject), User:Vagrand has again reverted to the unsourced version without 1)providing the needed source 2)answering the request on his talkpage. I ask a 6th time: is there a precise quotation from a reliable source supporting this claim?--Phso2 (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: See bg article: "Under the accord signed on April 9, 1229 in Perugia between the Latin Empire and the former Jerusalem King Jean de Brienne, the latter takes possession of the Duchy of Philippopolis and became Duke of Philippopolis for the period 1229 to 1237." (notte 22 given in bg.wikipedia.org: Проект на договор между Латинската империя и ерусалимския крал Йоан от 9 април 1229 г., в: "Латински извори за българската история", том ІV, БАН, София, 1988 г., с.36) and Tresor de chronologie, d'histoire et de géographie pour l'étude et emploi des documents du moyen-age.--Vagrand (talk) 18:34, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: At last...The first source is a compilation of primary sources with a few commentaries, and neither the primary source nor the commentary appear to support the information that Brienne became duke of Philippopolis; this seems merely to be the personnal interpretation of the original Bulgarian WP contributor, and this interpretation is contradicted by published sources. Moreover, the primary source is a draft treaty which was amended in its final form of april 1229 (the one published by Buchon) and which safegarded the rights of G. de Stroim on the duchy; so without another source about this matter one cannot conclude that Brienne and his heirs (which had carreers in the West and never returned to the East after childhood) were ever dukes of Philippopolis.--Phso2 (talk) 16:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Having looked over the primary sources, I tend to agree that Brienne was never duke of Philippopolis. The text of the treaty of Perugia is given on pp. 21–22 of Buchon's Éclaircissements in the notes; as best I can make it out, it seems that when he turned twenty, he would be invested with the Kingdom of Nicaea and the lands of the Empire "ultra Bracchium" (across the Hellespont, in Asia Minor), with the exception of the Duchy of Nicomedia. John's heirs might choose either the lands "ultra Bracchium" or in Europe (including the duchy of Philippopolis) and do homage to Baldwin and his heirs for them. But the treaty seems to recognize Gerard as duke and notes that it doesn't intend to infringe on existing rights-presumably the difference is that Gerard would now be doing homage for his duchy to John's heirs, rather than directly to the Latin Emperor. (Think of the way the Angevins spun off the suzerainty of Achaia from the Empire in the Treaty of Viterbo. At any rate, John's heirs don't appear to have made any claim to their (fairly worthless) rights after his death in 1237. Choess (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duke of Philippopolis