Talk:Philadelphia English

message: No mention of dropping the a from “day” as in Fridy instead of Friday  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.39.115 (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

message: There's an error, Goin down the shore is STRICTLY across the river; no one from philly would ever say somethin like goin down the shore, that's straight jersey trash right there
:I'm from Philly--Delaware County suburbs, actually--and I remember people saying "down the shore" all the time when I was young.--65.96.170.119 07:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved to the Philly area from DC about 10 years ago. I'm familiar with the expression (mostly from the local news and humorous newspaper columns), but I hardly ever hear it actually used. Most of the time, people seem to say "to the shore" or "at the shore," just like they would anywhere else. (Except, of course, that it wouldn't be "the shore" in many other places - it would be "the beach" or "the ocean." Calling it "the shore" seems to be a NY/NJ/PA thing.) Then again, I work at Penn and live in KOP, two of the rare places in this area where there are lots of non-natives, so maybe I'm not getting the fully Philly effect. 68.83.140.156 02:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Error

message: I lived in Philadelphia (Germantown and Mount Airy) for about 20 years, and the expression "Going down shore" or "going down to the shore" are definitively used in Philadelphia. Especially the first example, omitting the preposition, is a hallmark of the Philadelphia accent. JesseRafe 02:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Going Down Shore 

message: Come on guys, wudder 72.144.103.202 05:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, he's right; all I get is flack down here in Florida for saying "wudder".  It should be noted...and said with pride ;-) EaglesFanInTampa (formerly Jimbo) 16:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like it was mentioned here before but removed as unsourced. I'd say it's probably the most notable quirk of the Philly accent and should definitely be mentioned, finding a suitable source to cite for it may be a problem though. (And I agree, I too go out of my way to say it with pride as often as possible when out of town). Krimpet 18:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've discovered this problem with wikipedia before. How exactly do you source that? It's like finding a source for the fact that rain is wet (because it's wudder) 68.215.50.127 16:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Water 

message: Very accurate article, especially the generic NY accent. The movie "Invincible" was ruined for me by the ridiculous brooklyn accents at the South Philly bar where they hang out.
My favorite Philly accent words: Towel, Hotel, Vote. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.178.8.81 (talk) 16:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Invincible" 

message: The article states that in Philadelphia, "on" rhymes with "dawn" instead of "don". In my experience (though I live in the suburbs, not the city) all three words are pronounced using the same vowel sound. --SodiumBenzoate 17:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Philadelphia is definitely not one of the cities where don and dawn are pronounced the same. AJD 21:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second this from my own experience, and my own accent. This is also backed up by the well-sourced information at Cot-caught merger, which firmly identifies Philly as not having the merger. Krimpet (talk) 21:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph is not about "don" and "dawn", it's about "dawn" and "on".  I've lived in the philly burbs my whole life, and am surprised this was marked for citation.  "On" is almost always pronounced with the "aw" in "dawn".  It's one of the dead givaways of a philly accent.72.78.153.62 (talk) 04:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm from the burbs and my sister and I pronounce the word "won" as "wan". This seems to run counter to the "on"/"dawn" claim. Is this perhaps some form of hypercorrection? Has anyone else observed this?--Redscarf (talk) 21:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean you pronounce it the same as the word wan, which means 'pale' and rhymes with Don? Or you mean so as to rhyme with ran and began? In the former case, it's presumably a spelling pronunciation. In the latter case, it's a nonstandard inflection that has been reported by Labov; I don't know if it arises from analogy with begin or if it's a holdover from an older form. In any case, it doesn't have anything to do with don, dawn, and on. AJD (talk) 01:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  On/Dawn/Don 

message: I'm from Philly, and this article doesn't get the accent right. Here is my list of complaints:
:mad and sad don't have different vowel sounds.
:"eight and eat, snake and sneak, slave and sleeve"--these words aren't confused, so I don't know what that paragraph is talking about.
:"Both long -e and long -a sounds are shortened before -g. Eagle rhymes with Iggle [ˈɪgɫ]. League rhymes with big [bɪg]. Vague and plague rhyme with Peg (pronounced [vɛg] and [plɛg], respectively). For some Philadelphians, colleague and fatigue also rhyme with big (pronounced [ˈkɔlɪg] and [fətɪgˈ], respectively). However, these are words learned later, so many use the standard American coleeg [ˈkɔlig] and fateeg [fətigˈ]. " --this isn't true for my accent, and I don't think it's true for most.
:"Many Philadelphians use the dark l for /l/ in all positions"--the "dark l" is used a lot, but definitely never at the start of a word.
:"The word water is commonly pronounced /wʊdər/ (with the first syllable identical to the word wood, so that it sounds somewhat like wooder.)[1][2] This is considered by many to be the defining characteristic of the Philadelphia accent."--most people don't say it like that(although it is heard sometimes), so it is hardly the "defining characteristic"
:"In words like gratitude, beautiful, attitude, Baltimore, and prostitute, the i may be pronounced with a long ee sound [i], as in bee."--this isn't true
There, I'm done.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by I don't have a username idea (talk • contribs) 21:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you from within the city limits of Philly?  If not, then how far are you from Philly?  Don't claim Philly as your home if you're from two hours out of the city.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 19:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yeah, and also, everything you said is original research.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Attytood" is the way most philly speakers pronouce "attitude".  That guys OR is just wrong.  Same with "Byooteefull" for beautiful.  The others I'm not so sure of.72.78.153.62 (talk) 04:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article has a lot wrong

message: I'm surprised this was marked for citation.  This is something I here all the time.  I'll try to find a source, but I thought this was a feature of philly, jersey, NY, etc.72.78.153.62 (talk) 05:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Using an "a" sound instead of a long o sound is very common in Philly and South Jersey. But some people are sticklers for citations.Callmarcus (talk) 01:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I say Patatos and Tamatos, from Andorra, live in Francisville and serve in local government. 2600:4040:7A1B:7500:7CE7:A5DB:E53F:B9F4 (talk) 10:17, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tomatos, Potatos, Windows Citation Needed? 

message: I found a source regarding the mad/sad debate.  It's a little erudite for my taste, but there is a paragraph in red text which illuminates the issue.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Fall_2003/ling001/English.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.153.62 (talk) 05:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mad/Sad 

message: I removed the following item from the list of features of the Philadelphia accent:
*Philadelphian accents often drop consonents and even syllables. Examples range from h-dropping, such as "had" being pronounced "'ad" (or " 'ed") to "Philadelphia" being pronounce "Fluffya", "Philluffya," or "Phil-dull-fya.http://phillytalk.com/funny-stuff/philly/philly-slang_3.html
I removed it for the following reasons: (1) "often drop consonants and even syllables" is vague enough to be meaningless as a characterization of the Philadelphia accent. (2) Dropping the h in "had" is not per se a regional feature of Philly; it happens in most dialects of English as far as I know. One of the three citations is not a citation, and one is to a book which, as far as I can tell, does not mention this supposed feature of the Philly accent; this makes me suspicious of the third. Callmarcus, can you provide quotes from those books which say that this is a Philadelphia feature in particular? (3) The stereotyped pronunciation of "Philadelphia" as "Fluffya" is, for one part, a consequence of L-vocalization, which is mentioned elsewhere in the article, and for the other part, the result of the universal tendency that frequently-used long words are more likely to be shortened, and so not really regional. But the "Fluffya" stereotype probably should be mentioned in the article, so I'll put it back in where it belongs. AJD (talk) 02:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Drop consonants and syllables" 

message: Doesn't the nuclei of [i] relax and become less front in Philadelphia?  This is like what happens in the South. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe... that rings a bell. If I get a chance I'll look in Labov (2001) and see if I can find it. AJD (talk) 14:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: ''See'' and Other Words

message: The way English is spoken and words are used in Philadelphia is a dialect, not an accent. The article title should be adjusted to reflect this, as should any article pertaining to an "accent" of American English unless a distinctly different language is present in the English of that region (such as in Louisiana with the Creole influence).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swcrowe (talk • contribs) 04:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the same thing. "Dialect" also brings it in line with some other articles on the subject. I've taken the liberty of performing the move. --Fru1tbat (talk) 16:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage of "Accent" 

message: I'm sure someone else realized this, but using the "Dark L" in all positions isn't a feature that's specific to Philly.  That's common in all parts of the U.S. Some people are highly tuned in to the use of Dark L as it can hit the ear as a mispronouceation rather than a dialect affect. Former NJ governor Chris Christie is highly afficted with use of Dark L at every occuranc of the letter in all words.Thegryseone (talk) 07:06, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right; that item should have been about l-vocalization. I've fixed it. AJD (talk) 15:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dark L in all Positions

message: As a Philadelphia native, I can confirm that the positive anymore is prevalent in the region. I don't have a notable reference, unfortunately. And I would expect to hear "Anymore, Jimmy's hoagies taste different." rather than "Jimmy's hoagies taste different anymore." by the way. I'm not sure which one is more common, but the former sounds "right" to me. --Fru1tbat (talk) 16:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm from Andorra and live in Francisville. Grandparents are from Philly. We say anymore in a positive meaning at the end of sentences 2600:4040:7A1B:7500:7CE7:A5DB:E53F:B9F4 (talk) 10:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  positive "anymore" 

message: What about the extra "a" in certain words, such as "AKK-a-me" and "Real-a-tor" and even "Buck-a-nell" Street? I don't know how to describe these words in  a technical sense, so a linguist is needed to add this information.--DThomsen8 (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure pronunciations like that are somewhat common elsewhere as well.  For example, I often hear "ath-uh-letic" from black Americans in particular, but other Americans might pronounce it that way as well.  You can hear this pronunciation in London, England as well.  I'm not sure that the process that leads to that pronunciation of realtor is the same as the process that leads to those other two pronunciations, however.  Hopefully someone else will respond to this.  Thegryseone (talk) 15:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm from Andorra, live in Francisville, and serve in our local government. My grandmother said acame and realator, and so do I Alexcasperphilly (talk) 10:26, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extra "a" in some words 

message: Pursuant to discussion at WP:Articles for deletion/Philadelphia slang, I have merged content from that page's lead section, 'see also' section, and categories to this page. I also merged the discussion of the lexical items hoagie, grinder, and yo, along with references, to the section 'Lexicon'. Note that these three were the only lexical items supported by reliable sources that specifically discussed (as opposed to simply using) the words. Cnilep (talk) 16:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from Philadelphia slang 

message: Why no mention of the quintessentially Philly word "jawn" as documented at http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jawn ? 96.235.153.115 (talk) 19:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Philly history is only Irish and Jewish people 96.241.196.48 (talk) 14:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jawn" 

message: I question whether this is still live slang. I have lived in the Philadelphia accent area since 1971 (Urban West Philadelphia between 1976 and 1983) and never heard it.
Eric S. Raymond (talk) 21:18, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I grew up in the Philly suburbs (born late 70s), and I've always known sprinkles as "jimmies", or at least heard/used both terms interchangeably. --Fru1tbat (talk) 12:40, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I still use 'jimmies' --Fleker (talk) 06:41, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Yes jimmies is used for all sprinkles, chocolate jimmies, and rainbow jimmies. But other regions say it only for chocolate sprinkles. People made up a story of it being named after jim crow laws. but its named after sprinkle company Just Born's first sprinkle machine operator James Bartholomew https://www.boston.com/food/food/2015/06/21/is-it-racist-to-call-them-jimmies/ Alexcasperphilly (talk) 10:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jimmies" 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Philadelphia English. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080422175131/http://www.philly.com:80/inquirer/currents/15153756.html to http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/15153756.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080323161534/http://phillytalk.com:80/funny-stuff/philly/philly-slang_3.html to http://phillytalk.com/funny-stuff/philly/philly-slang_3.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 04:49, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This came up in the phillydev Slack (from a native Philadelphian who was surprised to learn not everyone was familiar with the term). http://www.waywordradio.org/sliding-board/ calls it a New Jerseyism, and (in the program) says it's popped up in Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Kentucky, so I'm not going to add it. But anecdotally it seems to be Philadelphian - if anybody runs across a better source, add it in. 73.215.157.183 (talk) 20:29, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I use this or have used this term, but I'm not sure whether the source is NJ or PA (I have influences from both). I haven't yet found a reliable source for either, though - a newspaper article I found uses the term in a discussion of PA dialects, but ironically with apparent obliviousness to its peculiarity. The article here on playground slides cites this page to support the inclusion of "sliding board" as a Mid-Atlanticism, but I don't know how reliable that source is. --Fru1tbat (talk) 20:46, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sliding board" 

message: geez, can someone please put more female examples of speakers? It's overdone with all the males that are constantly added Andynphillips (talk) 00:12, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Something needs to be done about this. I noticed that poster wolfdog goes around adding numerous examples of males but disincludes females. This has to change. it's odd to have 90 percent of the people listed be males. Bradhill87 (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

text: not many black examples, no mention of Will Smith or Common.. 96.241.196.48 (talk) 14:38, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

text: It's not a troll. And the comments were made nearly a year apart. Despite being at the bottom of the talk page for a year, it was unfortunately never addressed. The founder of wikipedia Jimmy Wales has even stated that he was dissapointed that wikipedia doesn't have more women representation. And yes, when and overwhelming majority of those is male without female represnetation, it is a problem. I'm sure Jimmy Wales would feel the same way. Are we going to try and fix this? Or discount this as trolling? I'm sure deep down you know the answer to this, and what the right thing to do here is. I'm not calling for 50/50 representation here. But having about 90 ercent of the listed be male without proper female represnetation is a problem. So let's please look at this problem. And it needs to be brought up and something needs to be done about it. Bradhill87 (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  more female examples 

message: [This moved from User talk:181.222.159.214, cut and paste style. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm ok with using thick. I think either heavy or thick would be better than "marked." I'm willing to agree with thick. What are your thoughts ? 181.222.159.214 (talk) 16:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Drmies is exactly correct here and in the edit summary. Read the article on markedness to get a grasp on the concept. Now, imagine that you hadn't. You're both removing the opportunity to learn more about linguistics for the general reader, while also making the article less scientifically sound by using a generalized term for the perceived benefit of the layman. There's no middle ground as every putative reader would fall into one or the other group -- knowing what "markedness" means or not -- and both groups are negatively affected by choosing to remove the valid and correct term and the link to the article that describes it. I'm making a compromise edit on the page now; I think it will satisfy all three of our concerns without making the sentence too clunky. JesseRafe (talk) 19:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thick or heavy or whatever 

message: I think it would be useful to merge Mid-Atlantic American English to Philadelphia English. The content of the two pages is virtually the same or overlapping, and the city of Philadelphia is the hub of the Mid-Atlantic American dialect, as defined by the ANAE. Moreover, the one other well-studied variety that is a sub-type (Baltimore) already has its own page: Baltimore accent. We may as well merge the two broader articles. In terms of the name, "Philadelphia English" would also by far be the better one, per WP:COMMONNAME. Wolfdog (talk) 15:22, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you mean, but I think they should actually be distinguished, rather than merged. MAAE should be all that's common to BE and PhE and some short distinction between the two, and the two sub-regional pages be kept specific and more detailed. JesseRafe (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'll just reiterate that the article Mid-Atlantic American English is essentially a clone of Philadelphia English but with simply less material; it brings nothing new or unique to the table, which to me shouts "merger!" Also, the Mid-Atlantic label is really only used by Bill Labov and colleagues as well as in the work of Cynthia Clopper. Again, "Philadelphia" is really the more common name for the entire broader regional dialect. Wolfdog (talk) 21:45, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

text: @Wolfdog I support this, there's plenty of duplication and they're not that clearly distinct. Reywas92Talk 17:10, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: I'm surprised there's no mention of his work, non-professional as it may be. OR isn't an issue since he's been interviewed by RSs including the Inquirer but the material may be redundant. Further reading/EL? Mapsax (talk) 01:37, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sean Monahan 

message: Should this article include black people or should black philly accent be a separate page? 96.241.196.48 (talk) 14:35, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will Smith, Common, etc 

message: We need a section for how people speak at the market and preparing foods. For example in south philly in the italian market. Many foods are called different things than they would be outside of the city and region. For example prosciutto is brahzhoot, capicola is gabagool, soppressata is superset, calamari is galamad, riccota is rigawt, mozzarella is mozzarell, tubetti is tublini, manicotti is manigawt, cavitelli is gabigilisy. kielbasa is said as basi or kielbasi, tomato sauce is red gravy, a sub is a hoagie, pork roll instead of taylor ham. https://hiddencityphila.org/2015/07/market-talk-exploring-south-phillys-italian-dialect/ Alexcasperphilly (talk) 10:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Market talk 

message: There are also words for describing people of certain age and genders. An elder is an oldhead for example and a young male is a buhl or youngbuhl if they are a child. Mommom and Poppop are common for grandparents around here. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 10:53, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldhead, Buhl 

message: Aight I had to bring up this topic cuz none of yous have done it yet. A person with a turkey has a big butt. and a male genital is sometimes called a bird. Alexcasperphilly (talk) 10:57, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Private parts