Wikipedia talk:Avoid academic boosterism

message: I've been trying to figure out what's really going on here, and not just here but in general in the whole "seelectivity" business in college guides and so on. Here's what I think: It is not seemly and polite to talk about a college's "mythos," but that's what's going on. One of the important things about Harvard is that "Harvard Aura" and the same is true of other "selective" institutions. You go there, you know you're hanging out with future Nobel Prize winners, or at least with people who can plausibly sound like future Nobel Prize winners. And this is known in the public at large.
So my question is, how can we talk about this in wikipedia? Some colleges have "Wobegon University in popular culture" sections,but these are mostly lists of mentions on TV. Seems to this is the place to mention "aura", and in some cases there's specific examples to bring up: Robert Pirsig and the University of Chicago, Paper Chase and Yale. For smaller schools, not so much. I went to Carleton College, which has the reputation as the highest-caliber college in Minnesota. But there's no movie or popular book that backs this up, and no news outlet wants to tick off alumni of other places unnecessarily by saying things like "Minnesota's top college". Maybe reference here to less-rigorous college guides (like College Prowler or The Insider's Guide to the Colleges) is in order, under the rubric of "How Carleton College is talked about," separate from verifiable stats.
The point is, if we can find some way to talk about reputation that isn't the article defining that reputation, I think that will get at a lot of the underlying issues here. Any suggestions are welcome.
: Interesting point, Natcase. Reputation and mythos are important aspects of a college's image. I dare say it influences a lot of personal attendance decisions. A separate section would be required to describe this. I can see it leading to a lot of controversy, though, because there are at least three distinct views of a college that conflict and compete: internal self-image, external self-image, and image in popular culture. Take Yale for example. It is an elite college for sure. Graduating from Yale confers huge status points (and not just because of superior academics) over graduating from SRSU (some random state university). There are positive aspects to its image: cream-of-the-crop, creates national and world political, business, and academic leaders, etc. There are also negative aspects to its image: old money snobbery, old-boys network, etc. It would be easy to find citations for these things, but I suspect Yale grads would hate the negative aspects and start edit wars.
: I guess the real question here is do editors feel it is within the mission of the encyclopedia to describe these very real aspects of a university's reputation?  I think so. Vantelimus (talk) 20:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would emphasize extreme caution going down this road because as Ventelimus sagely points out that the motivation to present an internal self-image would be overwhelmingly dominant owing to the fact that the only contributors are likely to be alumni and students. The selectively cited sources and authors casting an institution would preferentially find themselves into the articles while more negative perspectives would be preferentially excluded. One need only examine the extent to which "objective" numerical assessments are are made to conform to the POV of boosters writing the article: the negative "rankings" in the Princeton Review inevitably are no where to be found, US News and ARWU rankings are regurlarly parsed (nth best public university) to increase standing, and inconvenient facts such as low freshmen retention, high graduate debt, or 4-year graduation rates are excluded altogether. One should expect that the exact same will happen if we are to dive into entirely unquantifiable mediations on reputation as institutions whose objective quality could never be otherwise impugned are now finding that they're losing the "reputation" arms race because it's become a proxy for "quality". That's why I find this whole sideshow about selectivity to be so farcical - the term has been appropriated on such a large scale and so much weight and consternation invested in it by administrators, students, and editors that it's become meaningless if an institution with an 82% acceptance rate can be verifiably described exactly the same as one with a 9% rate. In addition, it's far too easy to trade on historical developments or notable alumni to draw inappropriate conclusions regarding the state of the present institution. For those tiniest minority of institutions whose reputations increase with distance, discussion of "reputation" may be appropriate within the context of the history section, but inappropriate elsewhere. But once that firewall is breached, you can be sure that SRSU is going to be claiming its reputation compares favorably with Harvard's. The success and seriousness of this project depends upon the checks we are willing to impose upon ourselves to ensure that these articles and the project as a whole remains useful, relevant, and neutral rather than wastelands of astroturf cited to glossy admissions pamphlets. Madcoverboy (talk) 20:52, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mythos / Reputation

message: The Institute for Higher Education Policy, an American non-profit, has just created a Ranking Systems Clearinghouse on their website.  This may be useful to editors concerned with academic reputations and sources that should or can be used in make related arguments.  --ElKevbo (talk) 13:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find! Madcoverboy (talk) 14:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: IHEP rankings resource

message: Another excellent, free, standardized, and open source for college information: College Navigator Madcoverboy (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: US Dept. of Education College Navigator

message: User:Aboutmovies has disputed whether or not the content of this guideline is official policy since User:Madcoverboy may have inadvertently promoted it. Please help us assess whether this proposed guideline represents a standard and documented good practice that all editors and school/college/university articles should follow. Madcoverboy (talk) 18:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *We don't necessarily care who edits what here.  Look we are still just looking for opinions in hopes to reach a compromise (please read below).  We don't require you to be a universities article guru, just a relative understanding of what and why this proposal exists.  No one here needs to blab on about however many contributions he/she has made on Wiki or else I'd have almost 18,000 edits to copy and paste... >.< ::eek::  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 20:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

text: *It may have to come down to merging this into UNIGUIDE.  I'm just not sure if whether after the merge UNIGUIDE as a whole would require another approval by the community again.  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 00:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm not opposed to this as an outcome. However, Aboutmovies' distillation doesn't do enough to acknowledge the fact that (unlike WP:MILHIST, WP:HURRICANE, or WP:HWY where knowledgeable editors needn't have a stake in the articles nor do their WikiProject wonks constantly have to justify their actions to the various fiefdoms continually claiming ownership of their articles) university article are almost always written by editors with clear COI (either as students receiving housing/financial aid from the college/university or as alumni whose compensation is concomitant with the prestigiousness of their degree). Accepting this unmitigatable reality, it needs to be made absolutely crystal clear that the purpose of any college/university article is not to be a monument to the institution's greatness, even in light of the fact that sources exist (and especially in the absence of any consensus on the reliability of university sources) that can be marshaled or recontextualized to corroborate an assertion of its "prestigious", "elite", "super duper awesome", etc. status. In my wildest of pipe dreams, the lay reader should expect that the articles for Bunker Hill Community College or the City College of San Francisco read no differently than the articles for Harvard or Stanford. Madcoverboy (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  This COI passage is quite far-fetched. I understand your concern about swarms of college fans, but take it one bit further, and it's time to disqualify all US residents from editing US-related articles (they do get public services from the government, whether they want it or not). Or call the Pentagon to examine all MILHIST participants for present/past/grandfathers connection to the service. Everyone has something special about their subjects, otherwise they won't be here, there's no need to brand COI on any student, past or present. NVO (talk) 11:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not far fetched at all to assert that alumni absolutely have a stake as I believe you imply (the case of the students should be far more obvious). There are already two separate rankings of university's web presence (Webometrics Ranking of World Universities and Global Language Monitor's online media citations) so it's not at all difficult to see Wikipedia article ratings figuring into the latest/greatest university rankings. These new rankings dutifully parroted and promolgated by the university news offices with the appropriate taglines for unusual usurptions on web pages, news releases, student newspapers, and local media. Ohio Wesleyan University does not figure into most popular "top 10" sorts of rankings, but being one of a handful of university FAs certainly increased its stock, not least of all in my book having read about their international emphasis. What of the fact that the Wikipedia article is almost always one of the top 5 hits on a google search - has that no impact? The alumni of rarely-acknowledged colleges/universities have every right and ability to make the case of the quality of their school here on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is the cheapest sort of advertising - University of Phoenix and Regis University likely both wish they could always figure into the top 5 google hits - Wikipedia is advertising and advertising intentionally mediates our perceptions of value. Maybe I should just take my tin foil hat off, but if there is not a ranking incorporating Wikipedia article "quality" into its methodology published by December 31, 2010, I will pledge my editing services to a randomly selected AAU member article to bring it up for FAC. Madcoverboy (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tying lifetime well-being to the college name? What's right (if right) for fresh graduates soon evaporates; the yearbook may still be a source of helpful contacts, but that's it. I have no interest in current ranking of my alma mater (it was over twenty years ago), why would I? NVO (talk) 12:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I also believe talk of COI is a bit over the top. I was in the 'oppose' camp, and am a consistent editor of University of Cambridge related articles. I went there and like the university, but I can and do edit out people trying to unfairly inflate (or deflate) it, under the pre-existing guidelines and policies mentioned above. Of course every article written influences people's perception of a topic, whether written in a reasonably neutral manner or not. This isn't confined to university articles. There's no right, or wrong, way to create the emphasis other than the building of consensus, which WP has plenty of well defined mechanisms for already. I still come back to the fact that this seems to just be a specific case of WP:NPOV. If you start legislating for this, you're going to need to create similar cloned articles for things like sports teams, political parties, countries with rivalries and so on. Before you know it, it will all be out of control! Mrh30 (talk) 12:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

text:  You can disagree with my perception of COI and the discussion above was a bit of a tangent, but do editors disagree with my central thesis and attendant implications? It is entirely possible to have an article chock-full of peacocked and weasel words describing the gloriousness of University X dutifully citing select sources. Those precious few wonkish editors who actually venture beyond the safe confines of their alma mater's article can attest to the ensuing and all-too-common dance: an edit/article is accused of non-neutrality/boosterism, previous contributors retreat behind the skirt of "Mother Verifiability", a long and predictable discussion about balancing neutrality, verifiability, reliability, ASF, and moralizing ensues (for which NPOV has a very unspecific section) with the neutrality-minded editor being vastly outnumbered by opposing !votes by editors with obvious COI and reduced to crying wolf yet again by canvassing other overworked wonks or appealing to the deafening silence of WP:UNI. The bruised and battered wonk leaves in due course and glamorizing content inevitably rematerializes with better citations but no attempt to address the bias of the article. Strip this of guideline status, and now those editors get to add legitimizing WP essays against accusations of their toothlessness to the repertiore of the dance. Sorry if this comes across as autobiographical, but I've been to a few hoedowns in my years here. Madcoverboy (talk) 19:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the COI clause is too much. You might want to soften it to say "Alumni who edit articles about their almas mater should be especially careful to maintain a neutral point of view.Vantelimus (talk) 23:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Madcoverboy: I too understand the problem and have had the same experiences. But I have had those experiences just as often at non-university pages as well. Further, why is it you feel this being a guideline will some how be more effective than WP:NPOV, a policy. If people are already ignoring NPOV, I fail to see how another guideline would be effective. Which to quote one part of NPOV that is rather applicable to one of your issues: "Concerns related to undue weight, non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited. The two are different questions, and both must be considered in full, in deciding how the matter should be presented in an article." Thus it addresses your "mother verifiability" issue head on. As to COI, it exists everywhere in some form or another. And what is more, as at both my undergrad and now graduate institution, they didn't give me a dime. I or my parents have or will be paying them, so its a lot like going to Target and shopping, just for an education for my personal experience and plenty of others. So does that mean editors should watch what they right on articles of stores and businesses they frequent? Actually yes, but not because there is a COI, but because every editor on every article needs to abide by the various rules. And we have lots of rules, and we have rules that already exist for every situation covered by BOOSTER, so we don't need a re-hash or compilation or greatest hits album. We just need to treat university articles like every other article. Aboutmovies (talk) 07:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see where you're coming from, Aboutmovies.  The purpose of WikiProject Universities is to further standardize articles with guidelines not already set or has not been clearly defined in the specified area.  I cannot say what you quoted cannot be used in university articles - because it can.  However, what Madcoverboy has been saying is that - "look, people are ignoring the policies we have on Wikipedia when it comes to university articles (and other topics too...) - let's further define by combining existing policies into a guideline specifically for university articles!"  I agree it is not as effective as a policy.  But he's trying to set an example here as an addendum to WP:UNIGUIDE.  Coming from this angle, can you blame Madcoverboy for trying?  You two are very passionate about run-ins/hoe-downs or whatever you two want to call it.  It doesn't change a thing.  We have an issue of editors placing COI and POV, PEACOCK...blah blah blah...*insert link dump here*.  WP:BOOSTER... I want to say... encompasses all of those link dumps into something that specifically applies to university articles.  It clarifies what is and is not acceptable in WP:UNI's beliefs and standards.  Now, let's throw in the instruction creep comment here.  Do we really need it?  Actually, we do.  When you get into a situation with a new editor who may not be a wiki-guru... most likely when you link-dump, they'll just TL:DR you.  But if you clearly state what is okay on WP:BOOSTER for university articles, you read one thing it's done - if the guy actually doesn't TL:DR you, he/she'll link on the internal links and read further.  Personally I don't see a problem with what Madcoverboy is doing.  However, once again, let's work out a solution here, siding yourself to one extreme is easy - working towards a compromise isn't.  Let's stop being the immovable object before an unstoppable force comes along ... :)  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 08:11, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That last bit was a weird analogy... >.<  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 08:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop telling me to work towards a compromise. I've proposed two (make it an essay, combine with UNIGUIDE), and all I seem to get is, no let's have this as is. So, I've been working on moving towards a compromise. Aboutmovies (talk) 08:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Assuming this is rejected as a policy or guideline, it would be better as an essay than a redirect to UNIGUIDE.  UNIGUIDE should be tweaked a bit to incorporate some of this material but this would be more useful to me as an essay than a redirect.  --ElKevbo (talk) 17:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the current compromise definitely addresses the points made from both sides of the support and oppose sections (mind the COI discussion directly below the compromised wording aside) it is probably what we'll have to do.  I agree with ElKevbo that we should probably change this to an essay, and then tweak this revised wording into UNIGUIDE.  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 20:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC Policy 

message: * Support as nominator This should be promoted to a style policy/guideline because existing WP policies of WP:PEACOCK and WP:WEASEL are not specific enough or always applicable to college/university articles. Madcoverboy (talk) 18:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Oppose - I fail to see a need for this, as I cannot think of a situation where WP:PEACOCK, WP:WEASEL, WP:AVOID, WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:UNDUE, and WP:LEAD do the trick. This is a classic example of instruction creep that should be avoided. Boosterism is not confined to schools, it is a problem in just about every area (see WP:AUTOBIO and even WP:COI), and we have many, many, many, many, guidleines/policies to address the problem (see the alphabet soup I listed above). Though if it does pass, you need to make changes to "Do not bury the reader in facts" as it starts off saying you can't have these facts, then later its OK to have them but not in the lead. I'm assuming this was meant to be a pure lead specific issue, though WP:LEAD already covers it, thus why it is unneeded. Aboutmovies (talk) 08:19, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *We don't necessarily care who edits what here.  Look we are still just looking for opinions in hopes to reach a compromise (please read below).  We don't require you to be a universities article guru, just a relative understanding of what and why this proposal exists.  No one here needs to blab on about however many contributions he/she has made on Wiki or else I'd have almost 18,000 edits to copy and paste... >.< ::eek::  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 20:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: *i like it in principle, perhaps as a guideline for interpreting how NPOV works in these articles, but determining boosterism still seems rather subjective when you are dealing with universities that are actually great. Ameriquedialectics 20:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *It may have to come down to merging this into UNIGUIDE.  I'm just not sure if whether after the merge UNIGUIDE as a whole would require another approval by the community again.  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 00:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm not opposed to this as an outcome. However, Aboutmovies' distillation doesn't do enough to acknowledge the fact that (unlike WP:MILHIST, WP:HURRICANE, or WP:HWY where knowledgeable editors needn't have a stake in the articles nor do their WikiProject wonks constantly have to justify their actions to the various fiefdoms continually claiming ownership of their articles) university article are almost always written by editors with clear COI (either as students receiving housing/financial aid from the college/university or as alumni whose compensation is concomitant with the prestigiousness of their degree). Accepting this unmitigatable reality, it needs to be made absolutely crystal clear that the purpose of any college/university article is not to be a monument to the institution's greatness, even in light of the fact that sources exist (and especially in the absence of any consensus on the reliability of university sources) that can be marshaled or recontextualized to corroborate an assertion of its "prestigious", "elite", "super duper awesome", etc. status. In my wildest of pipe dreams, the lay reader should expect that the articles for Bunker Hill Community College or the City College of San Francisco read no differently than the articles for Harvard or Stanford. Madcoverboy (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  This COI passage is quite far-fetched. I understand your concern about swarms of college fans, but take it one bit further, and it's time to disqualify all US residents from editing US-related articles (they do get public services from the government, whether they want it or not). Or call the Pentagon to examine all MILHIST participants for present/past/grandfathers connection to the service. Everyone has something special about their subjects, otherwise they won't be here, there's no need to brand COI on any student, past or present. NVO (talk) 11:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not far fetched at all to assert that alumni absolutely have a stake as I believe you imply (the case of the students should be far more obvious). There are already two separate rankings of university's web presence (Webometrics Ranking of World Universities and Global Language Monitor's online media citations) so it's not at all difficult to see Wikipedia article ratings figuring into the latest/greatest university rankings. These new rankings dutifully parroted and promolgated by the university news offices with the appropriate taglines for unusual usurptions on web pages, news releases, student newspapers, and local media. Ohio Wesleyan University does not figure into most popular "top 10" sorts of rankings, but being one of a handful of university FAs certainly increased its stock, not least of all in my book having read about their international emphasis. What of the fact that the Wikipedia article is almost always one of the top 5 hits on a google search - has that no impact? The alumni of rarely-acknowledged colleges/universities have every right and ability to make the case of the quality of their school here on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is the cheapest sort of advertising - University of Phoenix and Regis University likely both wish they could always figure into the top 5 google hits - Wikipedia is advertising and advertising intentionally mediates our perceptions of value. Maybe I should just take my tin foil hat off, but if there is not a ranking incorporating Wikipedia article "quality" into its methodology published by December 31, 2010, I will pledge my editing services to a randomly selected AAU member article to bring it up for FAC. Madcoverboy (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tying lifetime well-being to the college name? What's right (if right) for fresh graduates soon evaporates; the yearbook may still be a source of helpful contacts, but that's it. I have no interest in current ranking of my alma mater (it was over twenty years ago), why would I? NVO (talk) 12:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I also believe talk of COI is a bit over the top. I was in the 'oppose' camp, and am a consistent editor of University of Cambridge related articles. I went there and like the university, but I can and do edit out people trying to unfairly inflate (or deflate) it, under the pre-existing guidelines and policies mentioned above. Of course every article written influences people's perception of a topic, whether written in a reasonably neutral manner or not. This isn't confined to university articles. There's no right, or wrong, way to create the emphasis other than the building of consensus, which WP has plenty of well defined mechanisms for already. I still come back to the fact that this seems to just be a specific case of WP:NPOV. If you start legislating for this, you're going to need to create similar cloned articles for things like sports teams, political parties, countries with rivalries and so on. Before you know it, it will all be out of control! Mrh30 (talk) 12:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

text:  You can disagree with my perception of COI and the discussion above was a bit of a tangent, but do editors disagree with my central thesis and attendant implications? It is entirely possible to have an article chock-full of peacocked and weasel words describing the gloriousness of University X dutifully citing select sources. Those precious few wonkish editors who actually venture beyond the safe confines of their alma mater's article can attest to the ensuing and all-too-common dance: an edit/article is accused of non-neutrality/boosterism, previous contributors retreat behind the skirt of "Mother Verifiability", a long and predictable discussion about balancing neutrality, verifiability, reliability, ASF, and moralizing ensues (for which NPOV has a very unspecific section) with the neutrality-minded editor being vastly outnumbered by opposing !votes by editors with obvious COI and reduced to crying wolf yet again by canvassing other overworked wonks or appealing to the deafening silence of WP:UNI. The bruised and battered wonk leaves in due course and glamorizing content inevitably rematerializes with better citations but no attempt to address the bias of the article. Strip this of guideline status, and now those editors get to add legitimizing WP essays against accusations of their toothlessness to the repertiore of the dance. Sorry if this comes across as autobiographical, but I've been to a few hoedowns in my years here. Madcoverboy (talk) 19:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the COI clause is too much. You might want to soften it to say "Alumni who edit articles about their almas mater should be especially careful to maintain a neutral point of view.Vantelimus (talk) 23:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Madcoverboy: I too understand the problem and have had the same experiences. But I have had those experiences just as often at non-university pages as well. Further, why is it you feel this being a guideline will some how be more effective than WP:NPOV, a policy. If people are already ignoring NPOV, I fail to see how another guideline would be effective. Which to quote one part of NPOV that is rather applicable to one of your issues: "Concerns related to undue weight, non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited. The two are different questions, and both must be considered in full, in deciding how the matter should be presented in an article." Thus it addresses your "mother verifiability" issue head on. As to COI, it exists everywhere in some form or another. And what is more, as at both my undergrad and now graduate institution, they didn't give me a dime. I or my parents have or will be paying them, so its a lot like going to Target and shopping, just for an education for my personal experience and plenty of others. So does that mean editors should watch what they right on articles of stores and businesses they frequent? Actually yes, but not because there is a COI, but because every editor on every article needs to abide by the various rules. And we have lots of rules, and we have rules that already exist for every situation covered by BOOSTER, so we don't need a re-hash or compilation or greatest hits album. We just need to treat university articles like every other article. Aboutmovies (talk) 07:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see where you're coming from, Aboutmovies.  The purpose of WikiProject Universities is to further standardize articles with guidelines not already set or has not been clearly defined in the specified area.  I cannot say what you quoted cannot be used in university articles - because it can.  However, what Madcoverboy has been saying is that - "look, people are ignoring the policies we have on Wikipedia when it comes to university articles (and other topics too...) - let's further define by combining existing policies into a guideline specifically for university articles!"  I agree it is not as effective as a policy.  But he's trying to set an example here as an addendum to WP:UNIGUIDE.  Coming from this angle, can you blame Madcoverboy for trying?  You two are very passionate about run-ins/hoe-downs or whatever you two want to call it.  It doesn't change a thing.  We have an issue of editors placing COI and POV, PEACOCK...blah blah blah...*insert link dump here*.  WP:BOOSTER... I want to say... encompasses all of those link dumps into something that specifically applies to university articles.  It clarifies what is and is not acceptable in WP:UNI's beliefs and standards.  Now, let's throw in the instruction creep comment here.  Do we really need it?  Actually, we do.  When you get into a situation with a new editor who may not be a wiki-guru... most likely when you link-dump, they'll just TL:DR you.  But if you clearly state what is okay on WP:BOOSTER for university articles, you read one thing it's done - if the guy actually doesn't TL:DR you, he/she'll link on the internal links and read further.  Personally I don't see a problem with what Madcoverboy is doing.  However, once again, let's work out a solution here, siding yourself to one extreme is easy - working towards a compromise isn't.  Let's stop being the immovable object before an unstoppable force comes along ... :)  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 08:11, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That last bit was a weird analogy... >.<  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 08:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop telling me to work towards a compromise. I've proposed two (make it an essay, combine with UNIGUIDE), and all I seem to get is, no let's have this as is. So, I've been working on moving towards a compromise. Aboutmovies (talk) 08:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Assuming this is rejected as a policy or guideline, it would be better as an essay than a redirect to UNIGUIDE.  UNIGUIDE should be tweaked a bit to incorporate some of this material but this would be more useful to me as an essay than a redirect.  --ElKevbo (talk) 17:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the current compromise definitely addresses the points made from both sides of the support and oppose sections (mind the COI discussion directly below the compromised wording aside) it is probably what we'll have to do.  I agree with ElKevbo that we should probably change this to an essay, and then tweak this revised wording into UNIGUIDE.  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 20:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: An option would be to redirect this to UNIGUIDE and shorten it to something along the lines of this:
Articles on academic institutions are prone editing and the usage of terms to place the institution in a favorable light. This boosterish editing detracts from the quality of those articles and should be avoided. To achieve this goal, articles on academic institutions should abide by all Wikipedia guidelines and policies. These include:
*Avoid the use of imprecise weasel words; non-neutral peacock terms and phrases; as well as other words that are clichéd, derogatory, ambiguous, and the like. The lead section should be a generalized summary of the subject.
*Articles must be written neutrally and the information must be verifiable.
*Although anyone may edit an article, conflicts of interest should be avoided.
This solves my problem, as it prevents additional proliferation of guidelines that are simply repetitive. But it allows you to have a quick summary of the problem you find. You can change the shortcut to the new section and then cite BOOSTER to your hearts desire (though technically simply citing guidelines is discouraged). I didn't mention this before, but saying the article must be "honest" is really over the top. It would be like saying the article needs to make sense. Its a duh, and its covered by the verifiablity policy, in that if you are dishonest then it is not what the source said, thus cannot be verified. But this is the type of solution that would address my issue. Aboutmovies (talk) 09:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not opposed to this as an outcome. However, Aboutmovies' distillation doesn't do enough to acknowledge the fact that (unlike WP:MILHIST, WP:HURRICANE, or WP:HWY where knowledgeable editors needn't have a stake in the articles nor do their WikiProject wonks constantly have to justify their actions to the various fiefdoms continually claiming ownership of their articles) university article are almost always written by editors with clear COI (either as students receiving housing/financial aid from the college/university or as alumni whose compensation is concomitant with the prestigiousness of their degree). Accepting this unmitigatable reality, it needs to be made absolutely crystal clear that the purpose of any college/university article is not to be a monument to the institution's greatness, even in light of the fact that sources exist (and especially in the absence of any consensus on the reliability of university sources) that can be marshaled or recontextualized to corroborate an assertion of its "prestigious", "elite", "super duper awesome", etc. status. In my wildest of pipe dreams, the lay reader should expect that the articles for Bunker Hill Community College or the City College of San Francisco read no differently than the articles for Harvard or Stanford. Madcoverboy (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  This COI passage is quite far-fetched. I understand your concern about swarms of college fans, but take it one bit further, and it's time to disqualify all US residents from editing US-related articles (they do get public services from the government, whether they want it or not). Or call the Pentagon to examine all MILHIST participants for present/past/grandfathers connection to the service. Everyone has something special about their subjects, otherwise they won't be here, there's no need to brand COI on any student, past or present. NVO (talk) 11:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not far fetched at all to assert that alumni absolutely have a stake as I believe you imply (the case of the students should be far more obvious). There are already two separate rankings of university's web presence (Webometrics Ranking of World Universities and Global Language Monitor's online media citations) so it's not at all difficult to see Wikipedia article ratings figuring into the latest/greatest university rankings. These new rankings dutifully parroted and promolgated by the university news offices with the appropriate taglines for unusual usurptions on web pages, news releases, student newspapers, and local media. Ohio Wesleyan University does not figure into most popular "top 10" sorts of rankings, but being one of a handful of university FAs certainly increased its stock, not least of all in my book having read about their international emphasis. What of the fact that the Wikipedia article is almost always one of the top 5 hits on a google search - has that no impact? The alumni of rarely-acknowledged colleges/universities have every right and ability to make the case of the quality of their school here on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is the cheapest sort of advertising - University of Phoenix and Regis University likely both wish they could always figure into the top 5 google hits - Wikipedia is advertising and advertising intentionally mediates our perceptions of value. Maybe I should just take my tin foil hat off, but if there is not a ranking incorporating Wikipedia article "quality" into its methodology published by December 31, 2010, I will pledge my editing services to a randomly selected AAU member article to bring it up for FAC. Madcoverboy (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tying lifetime well-being to the college name? What's right (if right) for fresh graduates soon evaporates; the yearbook may still be a source of helpful contacts, but that's it. I have no interest in current ranking of my alma mater (it was over twenty years ago), why would I? NVO (talk) 12:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I also believe talk of COI is a bit over the top. I was in the 'oppose' camp, and am a consistent editor of University of Cambridge related articles. I went there and like the university, but I can and do edit out people trying to unfairly inflate (or deflate) it, under the pre-existing guidelines and policies mentioned above. Of course every article written influences people's perception of a topic, whether written in a reasonably neutral manner or not. This isn't confined to university articles. There's no right, or wrong, way to create the emphasis other than the building of consensus, which WP has plenty of well defined mechanisms for already. I still come back to the fact that this seems to just be a specific case of WP:NPOV. If you start legislating for this, you're going to need to create similar cloned articles for things like sports teams, political parties, countries with rivalries and so on. Before you know it, it will all be out of control! Mrh30 (talk) 12:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

text:  You can disagree with my perception of COI and the discussion above was a bit of a tangent, but do editors disagree with my central thesis and attendant implications? It is entirely possible to have an article chock-full of peacocked and weasel words describing the gloriousness of University X dutifully citing select sources. Those precious few wonkish editors who actually venture beyond the safe confines of their alma mater's article can attest to the ensuing and all-too-common dance: an edit/article is accused of non-neutrality/boosterism, previous contributors retreat behind the skirt of "Mother Verifiability", a long and predictable discussion about balancing neutrality, verifiability, reliability, ASF, and moralizing ensues (for which NPOV has a very unspecific section) with the neutrality-minded editor being vastly outnumbered by opposing !votes by editors with obvious COI and reduced to crying wolf yet again by canvassing other overworked wonks or appealing to the deafening silence of WP:UNI. The bruised and battered wonk leaves in due course and glamorizing content inevitably rematerializes with better citations but no attempt to address the bias of the article. Strip this of guideline status, and now those editors get to add legitimizing WP essays against accusations of their toothlessness to the repertiore of the dance. Sorry if this comes across as autobiographical, but I've been to a few hoedowns in my years here. Madcoverboy (talk) 19:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the COI clause is too much. You might want to soften it to say "Alumni who edit articles about their almas mater should be especially careful to maintain a neutral point of view.Vantelimus (talk) 23:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Madcoverboy: I too understand the problem and have had the same experiences. But I have had those experiences just as often at non-university pages as well. Further, why is it you feel this being a guideline will some how be more effective than WP:NPOV, a policy. If people are already ignoring NPOV, I fail to see how another guideline would be effective. Which to quote one part of NPOV that is rather applicable to one of your issues: "Concerns related to undue weight, non-neutral fact selection and wording, and advancing a personal view, are not addressed even slightly by asserting that the matter is verifiable and cited. The two are different questions, and both must be considered in full, in deciding how the matter should be presented in an article." Thus it addresses your "mother verifiability" issue head on. As to COI, it exists everywhere in some form or another. And what is more, as at both my undergrad and now graduate institution, they didn't give me a dime. I or my parents have or will be paying them, so its a lot like going to Target and shopping, just for an education for my personal experience and plenty of others. So does that mean editors should watch what they right on articles of stores and businesses they frequent? Actually yes, but not because there is a COI, but because every editor on every article needs to abide by the various rules. And we have lots of rules, and we have rules that already exist for every situation covered by BOOSTER, so we don't need a re-hash or compilation or greatest hits album. We just need to treat university articles like every other article. Aboutmovies (talk) 07:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see where you're coming from, Aboutmovies.  The purpose of WikiProject Universities is to further standardize articles with guidelines not already set or has not been clearly defined in the specified area.  I cannot say what you quoted cannot be used in university articles - because it can.  However, what Madcoverboy has been saying is that - "look, people are ignoring the policies we have on Wikipedia when it comes to university articles (and other topics too...) - let's further define by combining existing policies into a guideline specifically for university articles!"  I agree it is not as effective as a policy.  But he's trying to set an example here as an addendum to WP:UNIGUIDE.  Coming from this angle, can you blame Madcoverboy for trying?  You two are very passionate about run-ins/hoe-downs or whatever you two want to call it.  It doesn't change a thing.  We have an issue of editors placing COI and POV, PEACOCK...blah blah blah...*insert link dump here*.  WP:BOOSTER... I want to say... encompasses all of those link dumps into something that specifically applies to university articles.  It clarifies what is and is not acceptable in WP:UNI's beliefs and standards.  Now, let's throw in the instruction creep comment here.  Do we really need it?  Actually, we do.  When you get into a situation with a new editor who may not be a wiki-guru... most likely when you link-dump, they'll just TL:DR you.  But if you clearly state what is okay on WP:BOOSTER for university articles, you read one thing it's done - if the guy actually doesn't TL:DR you, he/she'll link on the internal links and read further.  Personally I don't see a problem with what Madcoverboy is doing.  However, once again, let's work out a solution here, siding yourself to one extreme is easy - working towards a compromise isn't.  Let's stop being the immovable object before an unstoppable force comes along ... :)  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 08:11, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That last bit was a weird analogy... >.<  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 08:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop telling me to work towards a compromise. I've proposed two (make it an essay, combine with UNIGUIDE), and all I seem to get is, no let's have this as is. So, I've been working on moving towards a compromise. Aboutmovies (talk) 08:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Assuming this is rejected as a policy or guideline, it would be better as an essay than a redirect to UNIGUIDE.  UNIGUIDE should be tweaked a bit to incorporate some of this material but this would be more useful to me as an essay than a redirect.  --ElKevbo (talk) 17:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the current compromise definitely addresses the points made from both sides of the support and oppose sections (mind the COI discussion directly below the compromised wording aside) it is probably what we'll have to do.  I agree with ElKevbo that we should probably change this to an essay, and then tweak this revised wording into UNIGUIDE.  - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ guestbook ♦ contribs 20:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise proposal

message: I'm going to demote this to essay per the consensus from the RfC above. However, I am going to encourage all editors to go to WP:ADVOCACY which is also a proposed guideline. ADVOCACY appears to address the issues many of the supporting issues raised while also being sufficiently general to speak to the justifications for several editors' opposition. Madcoverboy (talk) 16:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I made some substantial changes to the essay to address issues and inconsistencies that editors pointed out. If you don't like them, I'm sure we can discuss it ad nauseum but since this is a non-binding essay now, it has no real teeth. If you're categorically opposed to everything this essay stands for, then I encourage you to go write the Wikipedia:Embrace academic boosterism essay! Madcoverboy (talk) 22:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus 

message: Could someone please take a look at Marquette University Law School. I have neither the time nor the patience to deal with it. Thanks.  --Sift&Winnow 18:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done some trimming/ce/reorg, but it still needs independent sourcing and probably one more pass to get all the POV out. I've also left a friendly message with the primary (recent) contributor to point out some of the key parts of this essay. Karanacs (talk) 19:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marquette University Law School 

message: I realize that the list of universities down the right is ultimately for a sardonic purpose. But it does seem odd that, even half-jokingly, the best university of every kind (even what are in my view silly kinds) are all from the anglosphere (and perhaps all from two countries). 
I start with the first one, the oldest. I'm amazed to read that Oxford was the oldest; I'd thought that this honor (for what it's worth) went to University of Al-Karaouine. True, that wasn't really a university -- but then for much of its history neither was Oxford.
(Ah, but then Talk:List of oldest universities in continuous operation is vigorously policed by editors who have defined "university" as of European origin. Whence the didactic last paragraph of the introduction to the article on Al-Azhar University.)
For a bit more variety, one might add the University of Tokyo, for its importance to (the grip that its old boy network has had on) the government of a nation. (Check the percentage of Japanese cabinet members who have come from there. Oh, and I do mean boy: sexism has been as blatant as cronyism.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The short answer is, I created the images & captions and I exclusively edit U.S. institutions, so I'm necessarily biased thusly. It's certainly the case that universities that are "consistently highly ranked" are in the anglosphere, thus these are the universities that have the more pervasive problems of boosterism. Whether this preponderance of ranking of anglophone universities is an artifact of anglophiles primarily creating the ranking systems (ARWU being a notable exception) or anglophiles being hung up on their relative position in the hierarchy is left as an exercise for the reader. Madcoverboy (talk) 15:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  For what it's worth, I used to think the University of Bologna was the oldest, but I'm not surprised to find that that claim is challenged. Of course, it's not so clear what counts as a "university" nor what counts as "oldest." Dpbsmith (talk) 23:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnocentrism

message: They are measuring the reputation of universities among other universities and top employers. It's not boosterism to note the fact that a university is consistently rated highly -- in the top 10 nationwide, let's say -- by peers and Fortune 500s. It's a plain fact. I think we should allow rankings (from mainstream/reliable sources, such as Forbes, USNWR, and so forth) to be placed in the lede. Steeletrap (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Mainstream rankings are not entirely subjective

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Academic boosterism. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  –xenotalk 12:56, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Academic boosterism" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A discussion relevant to this article is currently taking place on WT:HED (section) on the wider picture of WP:BOOSTERISM across university articles. Please see the relevant section if you wish to contribute, as any consensus made there may end up impacting this article, and it would be sensible to get involved earlier rather than going through any discussion it again if it affects this page. Your views and input would be most welcome! Shadowssettle(talk) 15:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevant discussion on [[WT:HED]] 

message: I genuinely can't tell if it's a joke or not, but on the side section which goes through sardonically pointing out the "best" academic institutions, MIT is listed for its prevalence in popular culture. MIT in popular culture is not an existing page. I just think it's funny, and wonder if that was on purpose. Trogdor314 (talk) 13:02, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  MIT sideblurb