Talk:Black Flag (band)

message: Surveying the source section for this article, I see that most of the sources are not contemporary to the period when Black Flag were originally active; that is, people have used sources mostly written after 2000, sources that are conveniently access by Internet. As a participant in the "punk" or "hardcore" scene since 1983, and as some one with a graduate degree in history, I would like to suggest that this article needs more sources written and published at the time the band were still active, especially band interviews, and fanzine reviews of that time. The use of "Get in the Van" by singer Henry Rollins is good, but more like that is needed.
Another improvement would be to minimize the use of reviews and analysis written by non-participants, written long after the band broke up. To understand Black Flag or anything else from the past, one must begin with "primary sources" - here, that would be band members, their friends, and people who participated in that scene. For that reason, I think there is an over-reliance on the Allmusic website or Rolling Stone rock history articles, which are retrospective, and a lack of reviews from that time. Also, I would suggest deleting most of the references to, and summaries of, Azerrad's "Our Band Could Be Your Life." While that book is good for its use of contemporary sources (same time as Black Flag were playing), it is terrible in that it applies a marketing perspective, and MBA/commericialism perspective that is very much at odds with both the goals and values of many of the band members, and also very much at odds with the values and perspective of the Black Flag audience of the 80s. A much better source is Stevie Chick's "Spray Paint the Walls," because Chick was a participant in that scene, and understands the band the way they understood themselves. That is a more appropriate starting point. As an older punk, I find Azerrad's perspective horrible and insulting.
I realize that I am asking for a lot, and offering little in the way of elbow grease, but a) I don't really understand the wiki formatting very well, and b) I know there is some one here who cares about this enough, and is a good wiki contributor, to improve this entry. The leading magazines ("zines") of the time - the insider view - were not Rolling Stone or Spin. You want to look for Flipside, Forced Exposure, Maximum Rock'n'Roll, Jet Lag, Grey Matter, Gerard Cosloy's Conflict, and a million other little zines from the time.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.53.199.71 (talk) 00:27, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Improved Sources

message: Is it really appropriate to simply label Black Flag hardcore punk?  Most hardcore bands, today and in the eighties, have only a superficial connection to a group like Black Flag.  Henry would probably just say they were a rock band, that's good enough for me, but it's certainly misleading to label them hardcore punk.  I have a problem with the way labeling is used in general but I think alternative rock or indie rock (it was used back then) may be a more accurate context to place them in considering their relation to other bands in America at the time. Jonas.E.B. 06:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have at least 8 books on punk and alternative music sitting on my shelf which call Black Flag "hardcore" and describe them as one of the first and most important bands in hardcore punk (alongside Minor Threat, Circle Jerks, and others). They experimented with other styles later in their career, but "hardcore punk" is, if anything, the main genre they are associated with and should probably be the first one listed. To suggest that labeling Black Flag as hardcore punk is "misleading" is completely incorrect. In fact every single source I have that discusses Black Flag discusses them in the context of hardcore, as they were one of the originators of the style. --IllaZilla (talk) 06:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying Black Flag had NOTHING to do with hardcore punk whatsoever and that it should be removed entirely, I just think it's absurd to only label them hardcore punk as it currently stands.  By that logic, we should only have glam rock listed on David Bowie's page.  Jonas.E.B. 06:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They're definitely a hardcore punk band, but I think Black Flag is also a noise rock band. See their Allmusic Guide entry and Azerrad's book. They also have definite and documented connections to punk jazz. The My War album is also seminal for grunge, sludge metal, metalcore, and mathcore, but that probably shouldn't be addressed in the context of the genre box. Aryder779 (talk) 03:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with IllaZilla and Aryder. While later they might be considered other genres, this band throughout most of their career is practically the definition of "hardcore punk", particularly "Los Angeles Hardcore Punk." To say this band is not punk is grossly inaccurate and doing a disservice to readers. --Oakshade (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: First, no one said they weren't punk.  Second, "this band throughout most of their career is practically the definition of hardcore punk"?  It's well documented that the hardcore crowd hated what they did after Damaged.  The "scene" rejects Black Flag yet they still demand that Black Flag simply be considered a hardcore band?  Everything after Damaged isn't hardcore (that's half of their career).  They produced far more material that isn't hardcore.  Black Flag, Husker Du, and Minutemen were a part of something much bigger than hardcore (which, like its parent punk, just became a generic brand name for unoriginal music.)  Everyone knows Black Flag pioneered hardcore music, that's why hardcore punk should remain, but they did so much more after that.  That's what's misleading. Jonas.E.B. 05:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I think you would be hard-pressed to find sources describing Black Flag as "alternative metal". Yes, many sources talk about how the band moved further and further from hardcore over the course of their career, from the sludge-y B-side of My War all the way through the instrumental jams and spoken word etc., and some sources note their influence on other fusion genres/subgenres. But in my reading of a number of sources none of them actually placed Black Flag themselves in any specific genres that weren't some variation of punk rock. And of course the term "alternative metal" didn't come along for well over a decade after Black Flag's breakup. Of course if you want to build a "Style" section in the article and draw from different sources describing the band's musical evolution (and cite them, of course), that'd be fantastic. The infobox is supposed to summarize details from the article itself, so as long as the infobox reflects the (referenced) content of the article body, I'd be satisfied. Ultimately it's up to the sources and what they say. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Genre

message: Looks like someone made an error. Keith Morris was only credited as "Johnny 'Bob' Goldstein" on the Nervous Breakdown EP, and Ron Reyes as "Chavo Pederast" on the Jealous Again EP; they were credited under their real names on Everything Went Black. --71.173.14.251 (talk) 19:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're wrong. I'm holding Everything Went Black in my hand right now and it credits "Johnny 'Bob' Goldstein" and "Chavo Pederast", not Morris or Reyes. While Reyes was credited as Chavo Pederast on Jealous Again, Morris was credited by his real name on Nervous Breakdown. See for yourself the back covers of Nervous Breakdown (on which Chuck Dukowski is credited by his real name, Gary McDaniel), Jealous Again, and Everything Went Black (as well as the original cover of EWB, released when the band was legally not allowed to release anything under the name Black Flag so they instead simply put their names on the cover...the image is small but it says Goldstein/Pederast, not Morris/Reyes). --IllaZilla (talk) 08:23, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Credits on ''Everything Went Black?'' 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Black Flag (band). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130911081830/http://www.exhibitagallery.com:80/blog/2010/05/metal-of-honor-interview-henry-rollins-former-lead-singer-of-black-flag/ to http://www.exhibitagallery.com/blog/2010/05/metal-of-honor-interview-henry-rollins-former-lead-singer-of-black-flag/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 10:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Standard hardcore punk really isn't the only genre that Black Flag go under. I have two sources that consider Black Flag a post-hardcore band and Black Flag were credited with starting post-hardcore by one of these sources or even both of these sources. I do consider Black Flag post-hardcore as the band mix elements of punk/hardcore with elements/influences of genres like math rock, heavy metal, jazz, etc. I think post-hardcore should be added. There actually is quite an amount of Black Flag songs that aren't standard hardcore punk or even hardcore punk as a whole.
EuropeanSwedenAmerican2222 (talk) 01:49, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  adding (a) genre(s) 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Black Flag (band). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928010337/http://www.knac.com/article.asp?ArticleID=3153 to http://www.knac.com/article.asp?ArticleID=3153
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150215171759/https://musiclegends.ca/interviews/dave-lombardo-interview/ to http://musiclegends.ca/interviews/dave-lombardo-interview/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:11, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Black Flag (band). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060309012754/http://www.laweekly.com/ink/01/31/2001%3A-babcock.php to http://www.laweekly.com/ink/01/31/2001%3A-babcock.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141018034220/http://www.joyfulnoiserecordings.com/journal/top-50-by-nirvana/ to http://www.joyfulnoiserecordings.com/journal/top-50-by-nirvana/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061106054925/http://www.operationphoenixrecords.com/suburbanvoiceblackflag.html to http://www.operationphoenixrecords.com/suburbanvoiceblackflag.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061106054533/http://www.operationphoenixrecords.com/flipsideblackflag.html to http://www.operationphoenixrecords.com/flipsideblackflag.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:07, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Black Flag (band). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080213210508/http://swindlemagazine.com/issueicons/raymond-pettibon/ to http://swindlemagazine.com/issueicons/raymond-pettibon/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:36, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified