Talk:British Isles/Archive 2

message: With respect to the author of the first three paragraphs as of writing, I believe that the introduction to this article is in need of avoiding weasel words! To me, they read as if the author is an Irishman displeased with how ubiquitous the term "British Isles" is, and I get the impression that he doesn't want anyone to hear the term spoken without knowing that it's not so popular in the Republic. Highlights are mine:
:The British Isles is a term traditionally given in Britain to the group of islands off the northwest coast of Europe including Great Britain (containing England, Scotland, Wales), and Ireland, and several thousand smaller adjacent islands.
:Although still commonly used, the term is disliked by some, who believe that it implies a continued British sovereignty over the whole of Ireland, or that Ireland is British in some sense. The term often causes offence in Ireland when used as an attempt to signify some common identity of the peoples of the islands.
: In terms of geography the term British Isles is understood in Britain to refer to the whole archipelago, from Scilly to Shetland, containing more than 6,000 islands and totalling 315,134 km² (121,674 square miles) of land.
The introduction spends more time telling us that the name is controversial to some, than it does telling us what it means! The name "traditionally given" implies that the name is archaic as opposed to official and current. We see twice "is understood in Britain", as if to say, "Only Britain even uses this term at all, of course - the rest of us don't!"
As I had always understood it, British Isles was the name of the north-western islands in Europe in an entirely geographical context as "The largest island on which Britain is situated, and the other islands around it". Admittedly it's not so flattering to proud Irishmen who don't like to play geographical second-string to a country who had conquered them less than a century ago, but it's a geographical term all the same and it's one which is far too set-in to see a change any time soon.
Surely it only requires one line to note that the term is disliked by some Irish people who feel it suggests British ownership, and then later expand on this in its own section? --Jonathan Drain 01:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't agree more.  Whilst it may be prudent to say that the term "British Isles" is disliked in some circles, this article is meant to be about geography, not politics.  The politics of the British Isles is (or should be) dealt with elsewhere. Waggers 09:12, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Except look at all the talk on this page. There needs to be something in the intro or we will be inundated with moans about bias and pov. I have made an attempt to trim the intro, however. Robdurbar 09:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree that [i]some[/i] reference needs to be made to the controvercy, but we should ensure that the main thrust of the article is about the islands, rather than the politics.  I think your change to the intro is an improvement, although probably some further refinement is needed.  (For example, I'm not convinced we need the word "traditionally" in the first sentence) Waggers 10:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The term British Isles is not only used in Greate Britain, the German word is Britische Inseln and I guess most of the world calls those islands by this name. The only real alternative would be Anglo-Celtic Isles, but I've never heard of it outside this article. Markus Schmaus 16:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The 'Problems with modern usage and controversy' covers this fine. With the terminoilogy and caveats all over the place, Wikipedia goes more than out of its way to note the problems with this term. Robdurbar 09:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral point of view? 

message: I'm gonna at least question this merge, on the grounds that the Brit Isles terminology is a useful page. I fear that, though there are clearly benefits to a merge, much of the useful content of the terminolgoy page would be lost in such a process. For now, then, Im against it, but could be won over. Robdurbar 16:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BI (T) provides a useful page to direct to that has no other concerns, than recognising different terminolgoy wihtin the British Isles, some of which would not be relevant to a British Isles page. Robdurbar 16:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: With all the concerns about Ireland being confused with the UK the last thing we want is a link to an article about the entire British Ises from the top of the UK article. We need a special article to keep the distictions clear. josh (talk) 17:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Could you explain this one further? Are we (baisically) talking about an extended disambiguation page Robdurbar 19:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes why not? Or maybe combine articles that explain how different names are used to refer to the same region, while clearly pointing out how some terms differ or who opposes the usage of which terms and what alternative terms are preferredn instead. //Big Adamsky 19:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok; then for me a well-done merge could remove the pov issues, whilst the existenece of a terminology article is probably a result of a weakness in this article. A poorly done merge would damage wikipedia. In the end, if it goes ahead and doesn't really work, it can always be undone. Robdurbar 18:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Undoing the merge will be a lot of work if any other editing has taken place during the merging - and there's going to be a lot of that because this is going to take time. DirkvdM 08:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Well given that there has been no comment for a week, and no consensus, I'll remvoe the suggested merge tag.... Robdurbar 11:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: There is apparently a great deal of (largely unreferenced) controversy over usage and meaning of toponyms as evidenced by Traditional counties of the British Isles, British Islands, British Isles, British Isles (terminology), Britain and Ireland, Islands of the North Atlantic and Brythonic or Anglo-Celtic Archipelago. Why not merge articles with quasi-identical content, and then provide mutual links to the articles that arguably and evidently do not mean the same thing. //Big Adamsky 18:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you explain this one further? Are we (baisically) talking about an extended disambiguation page Robdurbar 19:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes why not? Or maybe combine articles that explain how different names are used to refer to the same region, while clearly pointing out how some terms differ or who opposes the usage of which terms and what alternative terms are preferredn instead. //Big Adamsky 19:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok; then for me a well-done merge could remove the pov issues, whilst the existenece of a terminology article is probably a result of a weakness in this article. A poorly done merge would damage wikipedia. In the end, if it goes ahead and doesn't really work, it can always be undone. Robdurbar 18:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Undoing the merge will be a lot of work if any other editing has taken place during the merging - and there's going to be a lot of that because this is going to take time. DirkvdM 08:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Well given that there has been no comment for a week, and no consensus, I'll remvoe the suggested merge tag.... Robdurbar 11:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge and interlink

message: Just out of interest, and not because its relevent here (since this is an English language encyclopedia), but does anyone know what the Irish Gaelic word for the British Isles is? TharkunColl 16:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no term for the archipelago in Irish. Just a made-up direct translation from the English one which is probably apt since the English term is a made-up translation from Latin dating from the ancient times of the 17th century!! It would be Oileáin Breatnacha. Iolar Iontach 17:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would the term Oileáin Breatnacha ever be used amongst Irish Gaelic speakers in the same sense that we use "British Isles"? And how about Scots Gaelic and even Manx Gaelic? All very closely related languages spoken among people who live on the different major islands of the British Isles. Are you sure there is no pre-existing term in Gaelic? TharkunColl 23:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Almost 100% positive. The language is correctly known as Irish not Gaelic. It's Gaeilge in Irish. Iolar Iontach 23:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just googled that term and it shows no results. There may be a term from "Old Irish" but I amn't aware of it. Iolar Iontach 00:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose the term Oileáin Bhriotanacha could also be used as a direct translation from English to Irish. It is used in the Irish translation of the British Virgin Islands i.e. Oileáin Bhriotanacha na Maighdine. I can find no reference to Oileáin Bhriotanacha to mean the archipelago containing Great Britain & Ireland. Iolar Iontach 15:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does anyone know the Welsh or Cornish term for the archipelago?Iolar Iontach 17:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ynysoedd Prydain" in Welsh, but I don't think the term is much used these days Rhion 08:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Irish Gaelic

message: Almost as an aside, it is worth noting that there are many island groups in the world named after their largest/most important island. See Gran Canaria. These are all geographical designations. If language means anything at all, then it means certain things. If we jettison meaning, then we are left with no means of communication at all. TharkunColl 23:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would one consider Great Britain the most important island unless one had a British-centric perspective? By using the inaccurate nomenclature British Isles one is jettisoning the established meaning of British.Iolar Iontach 16:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it's the largest island in the group, perhaps? The term British Isles long predated the use of the adjective for the British state. Why don't you make a fuss about the UK appropriating the term "British"? That would certainly be more logical, and I would have some sympathy with such a stance. TharkunColl 17:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: At last, a voice of reason on this talk page!  Well done, Robdurbar.  I'm sure you and I aren't the only ones that would like to see an end to this pointless bickering.  Waggers 16:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Canaries

message: :"British Isles and Ireland" is sometimes used as a collective term for the archipelago.
This is certainly true, but I'm not sure if it clarifies more than it obscures.  If there's evidence for systematic use of British Isles to mean something other than the headline definition, it would be better to state that directly.  The sporadic use of this seems to me to be more characteristic of it being an ad hoc synonym for "the UK", or "some set of islands I haven't clearly defined even in my own mind".  Alai 20:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think its a misuse. It should be mentioned but you're right, should be explained too. Robdurbar 12:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems more logically placed in that context, thanks.  Lest we end up discussing such favourite RTEisms as "the UK or Northern Ireland", at a certain point we should really be shipping some of this out to British Isles (terminology).  Alai 14:57, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "British Isles and Ireland" can hardly be deemed an RTÉism; it is used on this educational page from the BBC. Iolar Iontach 02:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  British Isles and Ireland