Talk:Monmouthshire

message: I'm wanting to write a brief section of the historiography of the county, as a prelude to doing an article on the Gwent County History itself. I've put it here, under the title "Historiography". It could certainly have a different title, something that more clearly explains it's a history of the histories of the county; and it could probably also sit in Monmouthshire (historic), or indeed in both places. What I'm aiming for is, in summary, a section outlining all of the important histories/studies of the county, gathered in one place. I recognise that it has too-heavy an architectural focus at present, and I'll look to broaden it out; e.g. George Peterken's Wye Valley for the natural history; Rev. Davies' An ecclesiastical history of Monmouthshire etc. and there must be ones on the industrial history, the social history, etc. All thoughts/comments gratefully received. KJP1 (talk) 09:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historiography 

message: Following on from the above, I'm not mad keen on these sections. Places of interest is a bulleted list, with no discernible criteria, primarily sourced to Geograph. I could re-do it in prose, with better sourcing, but I'd still have the criteria problem. Why are Monmouth, Usk and Abergavenny listed but Chepstow not? Why are The Kymin and The Sugar Loaf listed, but The Skirrid not? The Education section seems very odd, given there is nothing in it but a re-direct. What is it trying to cover? Monmouthshire has no universities, as far as I know, - is that unusual for counties? Is Coleg Gwent HE and what sites does it have in Monmouthshire, Usk only ? - so you'd be detailing its major colleges/secondary schools? And why single out Education [see below]? KJP1 (talk) 09:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Places of interest / Education 

message: * 2021 Baseline report MCC
KJP1 (talk) 17:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: thumb|right
*If you're re-doing the article, I'll hold off my efforts like at Torfaen and Vale of Glamorgan of adding three images to the infobox per WP:WLSCOUNTYCOLLAGE. And open a discussion here to choose them unless the current one image should be maintained, unless you already have ideas? If you're local, I'd respect your preference! DankJae 17:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  - Seriously, delay nothing. I have absolutely no strong views on IB images, and would be interested in options for multiples. It's obviously very hard to "capture" a county/area in one. Monmouthshire's Kymin view is beautiful, but it's not the entirety of Monmouthshire. As to whether I'm local - that's a question I've thought about for quite a while. I've not lived there for 40 years, and I now live futher away from it than I ever have. But I spent my childhood/young adulthood there, and for me, it still has the pull of "home". And I do love the "little places of a shy county". KJP1 (talk) 22:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah right, even if not local, you should have a deeper understanding of what best represents it. I just go with a mix of either "most known element/industry" or "geographic representation" (a image from each part of the county and/or if known for hills, show hills, known for coast, show coast etc). I would likely add some image of hills (possibly met with current image) or the Wye Valley as one contender. And ofc, of the best images that can be found. But am slowly doing the valleys ones so it may be a bit. DankJae 22:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @KJP1, note, county flags are also being discussed at UKGEO lol, with arguments being made for their removal from the infobox or the article entirely. DankJae 22:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh dear god. KJP1 (talk) 23:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: And having seen that discussion, it is an good example as to why I'm not keen on RfCs. I think I will just put the flag in and see what transpires. KJP1 (talk) 23:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: ===Railway stations in Monmouthshire===
So, we have:
* Severn Tunnel Junction railway station at Rogiet on the South Wales Main Line. This says it also serves Magor, but I'm not sure that's right. Our Magor article says it closed in 1964.
* Chepstow railway station and Caldicot railway station on the Gloucester–Newport line;
* Abergavenny railway station on the Welsh Marches line.
And what/anything else? KJP1 (talk) 09:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, MCC confirms there are only 4. KJP1 (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Just those for motorways, yes. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Transport questions

message: So, we have:
* Severn Tunnel Junction railway station at Rogiet on the South Wales Main Line. This says it also serves Magor, but I'm not sure that's right. Our Magor article says it closed in 1964.
* Chepstow railway station and Caldicot railway station on the Gloucester–Newport line;
* Abergavenny railway station on the Welsh Marches line.
And what/anything else? KJP1 (talk) 09:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, MCC confirms there are only 4. KJP1 (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Railway stations in Monmouthshire

message: Next question. We (don't) have the M50? I think Junction 4 (its end) is around Goodrich, Herefordshire. Assuming that's right, does that just leave:
* M4 motorway and the
* M48 motorway
Anything else? KJP1 (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Just those for motorways, yes. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Motorways

message: Help! I know very little about sport. I was going to ask User:Kosack for advice but sadly they seem to have left. I can cover Chepstow Racecourse; I can do something on golf courses; although is there much notable beyond the Rolls at The Hendre? I can do something on rowing at Monmouth around Monmouth Rowing Club. But what about rugby, football, cricket? Do any of these have anything really notable to record. We have 
* Abergavenny RFC plays in this league, WRU League 2 East;
* Monmouthshire County RFC - does this actually exist any more? They appear to have no web presence beyond Facebook and X;
* Abergavenny Town F.C.;
* Monmouth Town F.C. which plays in this, predominantly western, league, Gwent County League;
* Chepstow Town F.C. which plays in this league, Ardal Leagues;
* Monmouthshire County Cricket Club - hasn't functioned for nearly a century.
What am I missing, if anything? KJP1 (talk) 13:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the golf course at St Pierre might be notable, as is that at the Celtic Manor? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:24, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: An eagle for St Pierre, but not for Celtic Manor, which DankJae will tell me is in Newport. Remembering Tredegar House, I know you and I can recall the days when Monmouthshire's sway held west of Newport, and north into the Valleys, but we need to get with the programme! KJP1 (talk) 13:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol. If it wasn't for the views of Monmouthshire, no one would bother playing at the Celtic Manor... when I was born there it was the Lydia Beynon Maternity Hospital and it was still in the county!! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: At least if you take in the views of Monmouthshire across the River Usk, you don't have to look at the Celtic Manor. It was almost worth losing Tredegar House, not to have that in the county. KJP1 (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Although, on a notability point, CM does seem to have rather knocked St Pierre into the shade. It doesn't seem to have hosted anything major since the 1990s. KJP1 (talk) 14:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Money talks, apparently... Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  - if you have a little time, you couldn't find me a few music references? I've just added Rockfield Studios to the Culture section, but I need suitable cites for the bands. If you can't find the ones I've chosen, just swap them out with others. You will be a much better judge than I as to who the most notable are. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 14:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a very long list, haha. The person who probably had the most notable connection was Dave Edmunds, who really kicked it all off. But I'll have a look. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Bohemian Rhapsody must be worth a mention. Even I've heard of that. KJP1 (talk) 14:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Wentwood is part of Newport these days?? Is nothing sacred! Martinevans123 (talk) 09:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: And Goldcliff, Newport! Which I think makes you a Newport lad, rather than a Monmouthshire boy! I'd wanted the Mesolithic footprints but have had to resort to a footnote. KJP1 (talk) 11:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I somehow suspect that all of the farms in Nash, Goldcliff, Whitson, Redwick, Bishton, etc. consider themselves to be still part of Monmouthshire, rather than part of Newport. But it's always been a bit marginal, I guess... Martinevans123 (talk) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Wentwood is shared between Newport and Mons - good write-up for Monmouthshire woodlands in Oliver Rackham's posthumously published tome on SE Wales. Geopersona (talk) 19:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Sport questions

message: Use Dorset. KJP1 (talk) 15:03, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Climate 

message: :History
* Prehistoric Wales
* List of scheduled monuments in Monmouthshire
* Monmouth in the Mesolithic period
* Wales in the Roman era
* Kingdom of Gwent
* Norman invasion of Wales
* Monmouth town walls and defences
* Welsh Marches
* Monmouthshire (historic)
:Geography
* Geology of Monmouthshire
:Governance
* Sheriff of Monmouthshire
* Lord Lieutenant of Monmouthshire 
:Economy - Mining (but how best to cover it, esp. as most isn't in "current" Monmouthshire, except Wye Valley/Dean?)
* South Wales Coalfield
* Monmouthshire and South Wales Coal Owners' Association
* Monmouthshire and South Wales Miners' Association
:Transport
* Monmouthshire and Brecon Canal
* Monmouthshire Railway and Canal Company
* Wye Valley Railway
* Ross and Monmouth Railway
* Coleford, Monmouth, Usk and Pontypool Railway
:Culture - Built heritage
* Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire
* Grade II* listed buildings in Monmouthshire
* Registered historic parks and gardens in Monmouthshire
:Culture - Sport and leisure
* Wye Valley Walk
* Three Castles Walk, Monmouthshire
:Other
* Cuisine of Monmouthshire
KJP1 (talk) 07:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles to link 

message: * History needs filling out, when I can unearth the Gwent County History;
* Geology;
* Notable people? Pembrokeshire has it, Carmarthenshire/Ceredigion don't;
* What else?
KJP1 (talk) 12:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Under "Sport and leisure" you might want to mention Otter Hole? (I did it myself "some years ago", and I can confirm it was extremely muddy.) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  - Having read the description, I think I would term it Bloody terrifying, but then I have a strong aversion to enclosed spaces! KJP1 (talk) 13:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not very developed vertically... which is just as well, as otherwise you might get the odd racehorse falling in! But it means you don't need much tackle. It's unique in the UK, I think, as it's possible to also get trapped by the tide! I think it's also the only explorable cave in Monmouthshire; Ogof Agen Allwedd is near Llangattock in Powys. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: In terms of notable people, there was a short dispute at Conwy County Borough, with some added for no clear reason, then was argued that either all notable people should be included or none. So having "notable people" would need some selection criteria, so are there some individuals that are regarded as very important to the entire county not just one place in the county? I believe that is what Pembrokeshire does, somewhat, with sources, but may be too difficult to decide, so may be why Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion don't. DankJae 12:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: / - I should have thought more before starting this discussion in two places! I agree over "Notables" - they can be like school alumni lists, and I think I can weave mention of the most notable figures into the History section. On a related point, I should flag up the Historiography section. I suspect it's the only county survey in Wales or England that has such a section, and it's only there coz I have a nerdish interest in the topic. Is it really warranted, or should I fold it into the Gwent County History article I have yet to write? I like Otter Hole, of which I'd never heard, but think I shall weave that into the Geology section, which I'm hoping to persuade someone else to write! KJP1 (talk) 13:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That someone is up for it - interestingly Otter Hole has been on my radar though am undecided whether to entertain an entry - caves whose entrances remain open at all stages of the tide seem preferable. The excellent Cambrian Caving Council website (CCC is now Caving Wales, I learn) contains all location details for Mons caves at https://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/registry/CCRm.htm Geopersona (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Great source! How many are there? You should definitely give Otter a go, but you might have go at an odd time, to fit between tides. It's not a long trip, just a muddy one. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Fourteen or so in the vicinity of the Wye, then a host of them around the Clydach gorge and Gilwern Hill - perhaps another fifty or so. Of varying lengths though the list does include the likes of Draenen with its 70+km of passage and the resurgence for Daren Cilau. Geopersona (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha. I've done (a very modest part of) Daren Cilau, but had assumed it was it Powys (well Brecknock anyway!) Caves don't respect county boundaries, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: - Many thanks indeed. I’m very grateful for the effort you’ve gone to in redrafting. Although I appreciate it’s a complex area, I think the copyright position should be fine, under the British Gov.s’s Open Licence. That allows use and adaptation. And I am very confident that someone from Commons will tell us if there is an issue. Can I suggest you upload, and we see if there is any push-back? KJP1 (talk) 09:59, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've uploaded a file at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Modern_Mons_bedrock_geology.jpg Open to observations . . . . Geopersona (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: My observation is that it is excellent! I think it will be extremely helpful in helping the reader understand the geological underlay of the county. Having the South Wales Coalfield marked will also help me explain the 18th/19th century history. The 20th century boundary changes which took out much of the NW of the historic county make it harder to explain why coal was so important to Monmouthshire’s development. Thank you very much. KJP1 (talk) 06:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

text: On notable people, I am not a huge fan of those in county articles. Counties are a big area, and would capture a lot of people, especially given the propensity to add people who merely lived in a place for a while, as well as those born there. The list either becomes huge or else it is small editor selection which would represent editor selection bias. If someone does it, I won't revert it, but would like to register that caution. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I should be able to cover the Notables in the History section. A separate section specifically on them would be very subjective, and would encourage the endless, usually uncited, additions you see in other Place/School articles. KJP1 (talk) 14:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's missing?