Talk:Indeterminacy (philosophy)

message: I hope everyone likes what I've got to say about indeterminacy in philosophy. Please e-mail me tastyummy@hotmail.com for any decent reason.
Tastyummy 02:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's nice to see an expanded article. But I'd much rather see what philosophers and scholars have to say about it, not you. See WP:NOR and other policies. As it stands, it is too informal in tone and very non-NPOV. Aey 06:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'll be more specific with what I mean by original research (or you could read WP:NOR for yourself). This page, for example, talks about Nietzsche, and you make note of this undercurrent about Nietzsche, and yet you haven't sourced any secondary sources that would verify the stance of such an undercurrent. In short, it qualifies as original research because you are making an interpretation of Nietzsche's work -- it isn't sourced to anyone as yet. Please read WP:NOR carefully to see what I mean. "Original" here doesn't mean it isn't new, but that the material formulates a novel interpretation. I'm well aware of what interpreters are doing with Nietzsche, by the way. And I think in your comment you meant "It seems non-NPOV to me too", am I wrong? Aey 07:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, about Nietzsche, I would be more comfortable with someone else's commentary on his work, because Nietzsche's way of writing makes it difficult to make deductions that wouldn't qualify as original research. Aey 07:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Why would I want to remove it? No one would be able to verify it. You miss the point regarding my talk about deduction: any deductions here, that is, in Wikipedia, are original research. It cannot be made any more clear here. I'm aware of the criticisms themselves and how Kaufmann and Hollingdale have made note of them, but they surely did not characterize it as "indeterminacy" -- others have done this. It is these interpreters that must be referenced when discussing Nietzsche. Otherwise, such material amounts to nothing for this encyclopedia. Aey 07:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Per above, I suggest you do not -- at least, until there has been sufficient indication that others have attributed this quotation to the level of "indeterminacy" that the article elaborates. Aey 07:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Per WP:VER the burden of proof lies on you. Do not be combative; the article must meet specific demands, and I am reinforcing them. Aey 07:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Excuse me, there was some slight misunderstanding on my part and in making my self understood. What I mean to say is that if you are to quote N then you must be careful about making any deductions. That is all. I saw the context in which you placed it and it is perfectly fine. Aey 07:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, perhaps by now you will have a clear view of what it means that this article is original research. Due to the nature of a wiki, these problems can always be fixed. For very young articles these kinds of problems are quite common. If you want to look at articles that have been highly rated in the community as sources for comparison, then look here: WP:FA. Aey 21:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: To user:aey:
My grammar is actually particularly excellent. I scored perfectly on the verbal and writing sections of the SAT and ACT tests. You have now produced more grammatical errors in this article than were there to begin with:
1. In changing my formulation to
"[Another example is 'actuality' the first definition for which is 'the quality or state of being actual'; finally is 'actual', and a definition of which is 'existent in act' or '[that which is] EXISTENT'."
you have changed a single example of a single phenomenon into multiple examples of something unspecified in the sentence, which do not by themselves illustrate anything. Furthermore, "and a definition of which" is incorrect because "and" is unneccessary here: the phrase "a definition of which is" is being used to describe a word; your use of "and" divides the sentence into two incoherent statements. Finally, Webster's does not use the phrase "that which is" in its definition, since "actual" is an adjective and in order to be correctly described by the phrase "that which is" a word would have to be a noun. Does "citation needed" ring a bell? I own a copy of this dictionary and replaced only irrelevant parts of the entry with [...].
2. It is not appropriate to place this sentence
"However, within a dictionary, the "meaning" of a term is not absolute; all dictionaries provide guidance for terms' various and particular usages."
in a section illustrating an argument in the opposite direction. It leaves the reader confused as to the point of the entire section. It would be better to place it in the "Criticisms" section.
3. "Upheld" makes less sense than "cherished" where I used it, because to uphold something is to sustain it, and scientists do not need to sustain the quantifiability of their experimental results once that quantifiability is attained. Quantifiable experimental results will continue to be so without assistance. If you think "cherished" is too emotionally-loaded, at least replace it with something that actually makes sense, if you don't mind.
4. "Attempt at associations" should have been plural since multiple attempts are being discussed. I have changed this one back already.
5. "Attempts at associations" should only be used in a description of associations between two or more things. This is irrelevant to the example being discussed. Quantification and association are not the same thing; association is, roughly, relation, while quantification is measurement via a set standard.
6. "would be needed" is also incorrect. One could demonstrate the influence of indeterminate concepts on the social sciences in other ways than attempting to quantify DSM diagnoses.
Please be sure of your own grammar before "fixing" mine in the future, and if you find more "problems" discuss them here before modifying them in a way that makes them either illogical statements or improper English.
Tastyummy 22:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Defend how excellent you feel you are, but statements should be as clear as possible; and since you have to explain them, it is already an indication of their opacity. You might also want to cool down if you think my edits were somehow in violation of your rather up-in-the-sky attitude; again, don't be combative. That is counterproductive. If you cannot stand people mercilessly editing your contributions, then you would be more pleased by not participating at Wikipedia at all. This article has many problems with it, and it would be in your best interest for you not to react this way in the future. Many of the statements still lack clarity and that is the underlying motive for my corrections. As you see, this isn't just about grammar, it's about style as well. Aey 22:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Whether you acknowledge it or not, this article fails on many points (which isn't all that bad: room for improvement will always be there). I feel it is too bad you had to vent your frustrations through a childish diatribe instead of reckoning with the simple facts of the issue at hand -- I do agree that my edits may have been incorrect, but you do not seem to realize how unclear the statements themselves are, and trying to justify this lack of clarity by pointing to indeterminacy itself isn't a good move on your part. If you want people to know what the article is talking about then the article must be written with coherence, not merely perfect grammar, which doesn't go particularly far. It is terrible that you feel, due to such a horrible misunderstanding, you must leave Wikipedia altogether. I will still be here if you decide to return, and I will ignore many of your personal attacks that you (incorrectly) cited in your defense against me in bad faith. Aey 02:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You simply forget this is a Wiki, that is, a community. If someone makes an edit that was incorrect, then change it. No big deal. Be bold states one can make an edit where one sees it is necessary. And at any rate, I do not see much "logical soundness" in the article, which certainly wouldn't vindicate the article's validity anyway, because "logical arguments" have no place in an encyclopedia. WP:NPOV and WP:NOR are two fundamental tenets on Wikipedia, and you simply ignore these most important of points. Since you disagree with the "ethic" itself and wish to be childishly stubborn about the issue (and I've said I agree that some of my edits might have been wrong, but you refuse to discuss these properly), there's nothing more to say. Good bye. The article will become better with or without you, at any rate. Even so, I would like that you stay and contribute however you would wish (as long as you would do so according to policy). Aey 03:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar and style problems

message: Aey I really don't see what you are talking about.  Throughout the discussion of this page, to my way of thinking, you have't been able to substancate your claims. You seem to be saying the same thing over and over again, namily, that what Tasty is doing is 'just bad somehow.' Furthermore, the way you have changed some wordings is questionable.  Please clarify your problems with this page, and not just by saying "it dose not conform to WP:THIS or WP:THAT, but by saying why a particular typr of change should be made, using real terms.  Max18well 03:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree, in fact (well, not with how you characterize it). However, I no longer agree with some of the stylistic changes I made (as I said). But the areas needing citation is mainly where I'm coming from (hence the misunderstanding). Please look at them in the body of the article. It has also come to my understanding that Tasty has made this into a problem requiring mediation, which I think is rather drastic: Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-08-16_Indeterminacy_in_philosophy. It is drastic because the problems are in fact in the article. Aey 04:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a palpable example in the section on Nietzsche that I've left there as an editorial note: "Like the Foucault section, this could be improved by describing these occurrances and sourcing them. Other commentators on N's criticisms must be cited here. As it stands, it can just as easily be argued that N isn't making statements about indeterminacy here." This isn't a trivial issue, and I have pointed it out, but I suppose I didn't make myself clear here; the problem is stylistic as well as fundamentally original research and non-NPOV. I understand it must be frustrating to have someone talk about flawed work, but I am (and have been) trying to discuss it. Besides this, arguing for "logical soundness" (contrary to policy) is not a particularly beneficial venue to take, like User:Tastyummy does. Additionally, the first three paragraphs of "The problem of indeterminacy" are entirely unsourced -- hence the article again violates policy. It is my assumption that if someone noted policy while editing, then such problems would never have cropped up, but, as it seems User:Tastyummy has given up on fixing what he has produced, others will have to deal with them. It is trebly because of these issues my post of the notices at the top of the article is justified so that others will be aware of the need to correct such problems. Unfortunately, User:Tastyummy has taken these on a very personal level (so it seems) and disagreed with their placement in the article as shown at the Mediation page I cited above and in our recent discussion. Aey 04:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeterminacy, in philosophy, refes to concepts or ideas which lack a known cause or which, beacuse of thier vagueness, cannot be adiquitly discribed or distinguished.
Max18well 05:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not care for dictionary definitions -- they hint at usage and not always philosophical usages and definitions of terms (it goes without saying). What I want is what philosophers, and scholars, have explicity talked about this subject, and not by implying that they have done so. Aey 20:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: My talk about "unclear, illogical, or original" is not one subject as you would have it -- I have pointed out that the whole of the article is based primarily on your original research, and it is a fact that you continue to deny. Yes, people "know" what N wrote, but that doesn't validify what you have written concerning such indeterminacy as my editorial note points out, which you have ignored. Not only this, the first three paragraphs of "The problem of indeterminacy" are unclear, and I apologise for not pointing this out, which I meant to do: starting with a generalized paragraph as it does, it gives the impression that the article is opening into its own thought experiment, and then it jumps senselessly into dictionary definition (i.e., usage), which makes little sense on its own, because dictionaries do not define anything, as the contrary is commonly believed. At this rate, I'm really inclined to delete these misplaced paragraphs (I have blanked them) to open the way to a sensible initiation of the article that in fact should have been placed at the very top of the article -- this would suitably introduce the reader to what will be discussed in more detail, and any dictionary definitions must be avoided, unless some other source makes a similar example that would adequately fit into the structure of the article, and not by way of original research as it does. Aey 20:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, thanks for you commentary at User:Noetica's talk page, about matters entirely unrelated to him. Since you feel it is necessary to resort to personal attacks and the like, I see no reason to contribute to discussions any further, even though the article is OR and POV. I suggest that in later times that you be more mature when dealing with people rather than trying to be a dick and a child without end. Thanks for the valuable experience you have given me; now I know not to waste my time with children on Wikipedia. Aey 06:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Tastyummy, believe it or not, the problems are there for anyone to look at, and I have pointed these out as well as I can and with the time I have. My points are valid and not merely "personal" as you seem to have it. Ask anyone who has been around here, they'll tell you the same things I am. I understand you are trying to keep it non-original, and those were my aims thus far. (And about my almost consistently bad grammar: my mother tounge isn't English, so I do apologize for that.) My reference to you being a "dick" wasn't a personal attack; all of your recent discussion has been filled with verbal attacks (one was an outright diatribe that was deleted on sight by an administrator), and none of mine have. Please to do not try to make the situation an equal one -- so as to justify your truly horrendous and childish behavior (noting behaviors is never a personal attack) -- by way of indemnifying my acknolwedgement of your poor conduct. I see no reason to continue here. Someone else can take up the effort to school you on these matters. I will not. So, in a way, I am pleased that you contacted someone, but you would be better off contacting someone more experienced on Wikipedia, which User:Noetica is not, as shown by his/her contributions, rather than someone you think would be easy to convince in bearing your flag. I harbor no hard feelings though. I wish the best for this article. (You might also want to get some healthful sleep -- it would be bad not to do so.) Aey 07:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One last note: do not remove requests for citations. They are there for definite reasons whether you find them agreeable or not. You might also want to consider sound advice from someone who isn't merely passingly familiar with Wikipedia rather than being recalcitrant. Again, I leave this to others. Good bye. Aey 07:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I have tried to make this extremely clear to you, Tastyummy, and it hasn't worked, which is terribly unfortunate. Every request for citation is rooted in these principles: WP:CITE, WP:VER, WP:NOR, WP:CN, WP:NPOV, among others. Just because I have left one for, as you mention above, the scientific method doesn't mean it is somehow "untrue" ("truth" is more or less meaningless on Wikipedia); it means only that it must satisfy the demands of Wikipedia. And referring to the article on the scientific method doesn't accomplish anything unless that article has a citation on the very same statement within it (and if it does, then you are obligated to use it that same citation in this article). These are the underlying problems with the article -- statements must be directly sourced, and if you think some source fits, then cite it! You can use these ref tags to cite them:  (see WP:MOS for more details). There are more statements needing citation in the article, but I leave that to your faculties to assess (e.g., the section on Nietzsche as I have indicated from first to last, etc.), and featured articles are excellent sources of inspiration. So you see, posting those notices at the top of the article was the very best thing to do, for then people elsewhere would become more aware of the article so that it can be improved (but you took this very differently). I do not, at any rate, wish to participate here any longer. You have my best wishes. And do get some sleep. Aey 08:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: It's because I have high hopes for the article. Why else would I invest my time and effort on it to point out flaws for others to improve? As for my "personal attack": any third party would reach a similar assessment about your actions toward me, and would more or less agree, even if "horrendous" isn't a term used to describe it. Personal tastes aren't at issue here, but they are only insofar as I no longer have any interest in collaborating with you, and my knowledge base is more extensive than you might assume. I believe this will have been our last correspondence for a great deal of time. Best, Aey 08:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recap and Request

message: Any new users would do well to read through WP:ATTACK, as well as other important wikipolicies, before beginning to edit or create articles. PLEASE end the personal attacks so that progress can be made. Repeated personal attacks are grounds for getting a user banned.
Tasty, please acknowledge WikipediAhimsa: "Remember that NPOV is a collective goal, not individually achievable". Also note Assume Good Faith and Hanlon's razor. Please keep discussion content-based, rather than "That's it, I'm never coming back. Never. Really. I'm serious this time." Congratulations on a nice-looking article.
:Rashad9607 18:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal Attacks

message: This section gives the impression that all forms of indeterminacy are linguistic in origin:-
: "The problem of indeterminacy arises when one observes the eventual circularity of virtually every possible definition."
IMO this is a problem of indeterminacy (albeit a major one). However, this is not the source of "indeterminacy" as in the "Heisenberg Indeterminacy principle (more usually called the uncertainty principle). It is also quite debatable whether it is the source of thing-in-itself issues.
I suspect that the first three paragraphs of "The Problem of Inderminacy" would work better as a separate section, e.g "Indeterminacy of meaning".
In the same vein, the "Indeterminacy in new physical theories" section treats conceptual/semantic indeterminacy as interchangeable with causal inderminacy (chaos, the Uncertainty Principle). These themes should be distinguished from each other, IMO.
1Z 02:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Occam's razor always eliminates "things in themselves" from functioning models of quantifiable phenomena"
is very debatable.
1Z 03:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "The Problem of Inderminacy" and "Indeterminacy in new physical theories"

message: According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style the initial "p" in "philosophy" in the title should be lower-case, and consequently two articles now exist:
* indeterminacy (philosophy)
* indeterminacy (Philosophy)
That's what happens when Wikipedia's conventions are disregarded as when this article's title was chosen.  The material from this incorrectly titled article should get merged into the correctly titled one. Michael Hardy 21:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is incorrectly titled 

message: I am going to make some edits. 
# The article needs restructuring, there is no logic to the current layout.
# There are some egregiously misleading statements.
# The lead needs rewriting.
# Issues like indeterminacy of translation need to be covered properly.(There is a separate artcile)
1Z 14:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes

message: I have removed this.
A similar problem in the modern concept of insanity is the concept of the "thought disorder": since the thoughts of another human being are entirely unknowable and can only be assumed, with an unknown degree of accuracy, from that other person's behavior, there is no way to quantify what a thought disorder is in a general sense, although it is possible, for example, to statistically analyze patterns of quantifiable human behavior and to draw conclusions about the normality of particular behaviors therefrom. Given this view, a "thought disorder", such as schizophrenia, would be better termed a "behavioral disorder".
This is very POV and has little to do with the article. There are plenty of ways of discerning someone's thoughts: one can ask them, for instance, or give them problem-solving tests. Schizophrenics are considered to have disordered thinking because they are bad at problem solving.1Z 15:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Thought disorder

message: Richard Dawkins, the man who coined the term meme in the 1970s, described the concept of faith in his documentary, Root of All Evil?, as "the process of non-thinking". In the documentary, he used Bertrand Russell's analogy between a teapot orbiting the sun (something that cannot be observed because the brightness of the sun would obscure it even from the best telescope's view) and the object of one's faith (in this particular case, God) to explain that a highly indeterminate idea can self-replicate freely: "Everybody in the society had faith in the teapot. Stories of the teapot had been handed down for generations as part of the tradition of society. There are holy books about the teapot."
 
What has that got to do with indeterminacy? Dawkins doesn't mention it. I suspect the memetics-indeterminacy link is OR.1Z 16:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mmemetics and indeterminacy 

message: This would seem to attempt to make direct use of the indeterminacy of the object of one's faith as evidential support of its existence: if the object of one's faith were to be proven to exist (i.e., if it were no longer of indeterminate definition, or if it were no longer unquantifiable, etc.), then faith in that object would no longer be necessary; arguments from authority such as those mentioned above wouldn't either; all that would be needed to prove its existence would be scientific evidence. Thus, if faith is to be considered as a reliable basis for knowledge, persons of faith would seem, in effect, to assert that indeterminacy is not only necessary, but good.
This looks OR-is and isn't a very good argument. If faith is necessary because of the regress argument,then a proof of God (or whatever) doesn't effect the argument, because the proof will itself ultmately rest on something that cannot be proven.1Z 16:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Faith 

message: "The proposition that indeterminacy has a definite effect on observable phenomena (such as on the wide influences of Platonism and Kantianism) is based on historical evidence rather than on scientific experiment; however, it is nevertheless not an untenable position in modern philosophy if it does not treat indeterminacy as a "transcendental cause" but as a phenomenon or process which can be precisely characterized and which is evidenced by other observable phenomena."
This passage confuses indeterminacy qua vague definition with indeterminacy as a metaphysical issue.1Z 16:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Indeterminacy and consciousness

message: ..could probably go into separate sections, since the only link is the "memes explain qualia" theory,
which seems to be OR. 1Z 17:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dennett and Dawkins 

message: When you get the merge to Indeterminacy (philosophy) done, be sure to change the title at the Indeterminacy disambig page.  I saw that that page was a proto-article instead of just dab, and it linked to four articles.  After doing a search on the term, I found and linked 11 more articles, some of which overlap. Plus there are a few more which are obvious merge candidates (will list them on the dab talk page). --Blainster 20:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Indeterminacy disambiguation

message: ::"things-in-themselves  because they are related to indeterminacy in that they are sometimes held to be outside of causal chains altogether in terms of observable effect,"
::But not by Kant.
:You're right, but this claim should be substituted with information on Hegel's critique of the thing-in-itself.
:From <http://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/existents-hegels-critique-of-the-in-itself/>:
::"Hegel’s critique of the Kantian thing-in-itself is of particular interest. David Gray Carlson does a nice job recounting this critique in A Commentary to Hegel’s Science of Logic.
::According to Hegel, both Being-in-itself and Being-for-other are intrinsically bound up with one another. This portends that the ::inner is outer. The in-itself as isolated, however, is Kant’s noumenal thing-in-itself, of which Hegel is a sharp critic. “[T]he ::proposition that we do not know what things are in themselves,” Hegel complains, “ranked as a profound piece of wisdom” (SL, 121). ::Things are “in themselves” if all Being-for-other is purged. We perceive in a given thing only its Being-for-other, “the ::indeterminate, affirmative community of something with its other” (126). Therefore, Kant insisted, we can have no idea what the ::thing-in-itself is. Hegel strongly disagrees.
::Things are called “in themselves” in so far as abstraction is made from all being-for-other, which means simply, in so far as they ::are thought devoid of all determination, as nothings. In this sense, it is of course impossible to know what the thing in itself ::is. For the question: what? demands that determinations be assigned; but since the things of which they are to be assigned are at ::the same time supposed to be things in themselves, which means, in effect, to be without any determination, the question is made ::thoughlessly impossible to answer, or else only an absurd answer is given. (SL, 121)
::The thing-in-itself is absolute, and furthermore, it is one. That is, once appearance is abolished, but there is but one ::thing-in-itself in its indeterminancy– not many: “What is in these things in themselves, therefore we know quite well; they are as ::such nothing but truthless, empty abstractions” (SL, 121). In contrast, Hegel’s analysis has shown the thing-in-itself is concrete. ::It is the same as being-for-other. (Carlson, 75)
::In the Phenomenology, Hegel shows that the distinction between the unkowable thing-in-itself as conceived by Kant and appearances is itself a distinction of understanding, and therefore a product of thought (paragraphs 145-148).
SL, in the above quotation, is, I think, an abbreviation for Hegel's Science of Logic, of which I've now obtained a copy. You were right that I had been mistaken to attribute that opinion to Kant. For Kant, the noumenon was, at least, a descriptible thing.
By the way: I apologise for all the anti-psychiatry, which was, indeed, mostly OR and/or irrelevant to an encyclopedic article on indeterminacy. I hadn't planned to write non-NPOV statements, but did recognise later that I had done so, intended to change them. This was a personal issue for me; I have recently been informed by a medical official that I probably have Asperger's syndrome and have been diagnosed and treated by many "mental health" professionals for various and sundry "thought disorders" in the past many times. Things called "insanity" or "mental illness" are not known to be causally indeterminate, and my argument that their definitions were linguistically/semantically indeterminate is inappropriate for articles or sections on linguistic or semantic indeterminacy as well.
I will research the history of the word "indeterminacy" and prepare a section on its use in the history of philosophy, if it is agreed such a section might be appropriate in this article, being of some importance, for example, in the history of the philosophy of science. It appears that the term has been used extensively in continental philosophy.
I also suggest that the article be removed from WikiProject Atheism. I don't know whether it belongs in any wikiproject at all. If a section on Derrida's use of the term is included, it might be relevant to postsecularism, on which there isn't yet a Wikipedia article. (I'm still trying to read Derrida, and it's quite difficult read quickly, for me, anyway.)
Thanks, 1Z, for all your help. I am going to read about the use-mention fallacy and may end up responding to some of your arguments with possible reformulations of sections. I hope this, if it occurs, will be helpful as well.
The link to the "Quantum Nietzsche" site should be removed as well, since it appears to be quantum mysticism.
Tastyummy 04:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-Original and Original Research

message: The relation of semantic indeterminacy to "memetics" and memes in general is discussed in this paper.
:"The set of problems centering on definition and meaning is serious but hardly limited to memetics. The empirical study of semantics tells us that various modifiers in different contexts subtly transform the definitions and meanings of most words. As our language becomes more distant from direct physical experience of the physical world, it builds upon itself to create and use abstract, general concepts. The core meanings, the constants diminish; contextual parameters gain heavier weight.
:This semantic indeterminacy is true for words such as `reason', `validity', and democracy for example (Beer, 1997; Beer, 1994 ; Speel, 1997). It is not surprising, and should not be that the word `meme' is similarly multivalent. The general nature of semantics leads us to expect no less."
The paper quoted above does at least provide a link between memes and semantic indeterminacy (it's billed as a commentary on this paper, which seems mainly irrelevant to philosophical, linguistic, or semantic indeterminacy.
A real problem for me is differentiation between these types of indeterminacy. If someone uses the word "indeterminate" to mean "of indeterminate meaning" or "of indeterminate definition" (or "semantically indeterminate" (?) ), he or she might say "the meaning of the term X is indeterminate". I am beginning to see that this observation might be made more often in linguistics than in philosophy,  but am far less familiar with linguistics specifically than with philosophy in general.
The argument that memes explain qualia was not the product of my own original research; I took it from Dennett, who made it in Consciousness Explained, in which Dennett devoted an entire chapter, "Qualia Disqualified", to such an argument. The paraphrasis "memes explain qualia" seems fair to Dennett, since he argues earlier in that text that
:"[...]the human mind is itself an artifact created when memes restructure a human brain in order to make it a better habitat for memes."
The information on memes, qualia, etc. was intended to illustrate a philosophical treatment of indeterminacy. It wasn't OR, but probably quite POV.
Tastyummy 17:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Memes and indeterminacy

message: I've also run into the wikipedia article sememe.
:"Sememe (Greek semaino - mean, signify) - semantical language unit of meaning, correlative to morpheme.
:A sememe is a proposed unit of transmitted or intended meaning; it is atomic or indivisible. A sememe can be the meaning expressed by a morpheme, such as the English pluralizing morpheme -s, which carries the sememic feature [+ plural]. Alternately, a single sememe (for example [go] or [move]) can be conceived as the abstract representation of such verbs as skate, roll, jump, slide, turn, or boogie. It can be thought of as the semantic counterpart to any of the following: a meme in a culture of ideas, a gene in a genetic makeup, or an atom (or, more specifically, an elementary particle) in a substance."
This makes a lot more sense than the meme as part of an argument for semantic indeterminacy, in my opinion. I am not an expert in linguistics, and do not have access to any text on formal semantics. This article or a related one may need expert attention eventually.
Tastyummy 17:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sememes

message: The headings and organisation of this article need work. E.g. why is there a main heading 'Indeterminacy in philosophy' when that's what the whole article is meant to be about?
The 'Current work' section is a mish-mash (Dawkins etc.) and the heading is unhelpful as some other parts of the article are still current (i.e. still very much under debate).
Also I added a stub section of indeterminacy of meaning & translation, which are major topics especially re the work of Quine & Davidson. 93.96.236.8 (talk) 17:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Headings

message: This article has some good elements within it, but overall needs a reconstruction really. It has cherry picked some sources, and missed many others, but overall a "new user" would not be educated by this article..... One day I may get to work on it, but in the meantime it can not really be relied upon, although it is an important topic in my opinion.... sigh... History2007 (talk) 01:58, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Quality

message: The end of the introduction states a very simple and unsatisfying point. It is assumed that any philosophy that defines truth on the basis of 'popular sentiment', or common use of language, or behaviour,(notably logic positivism) ultimately fails against the very weak counter argument presented. This, of course, is very POV and it should at least be noted that the point made is not definite. The article presents. "arguments that delusion is determined by popular sentiment (i.e., "almost no-one believes that he or she is made of cheese, and thus that belief is a delusion") would lead to the conclusion that, for example, Alfred Wegener's assertion of continental drift was a delusion since it was dismissed for decades after it was made." - Would they really? Please reformulate this in a less biased way, acknowledge the existence of philosophers with very different takes on this and mention/link philosophical concepts like logic positivism to make the article less one-sided.
Thanks
95.175.156.40 (talk) 20:22, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  delusion as determined by popular sentiment 

message: but in a very vague form. Both terms refer to quantum indeterminacy, etc. 85.193.218.221 (talk) 05:11, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  It looks like (well defined) [[indeterminism]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)