Wikipedia talk:Etiquette

message: ----
* Project page renamed from Wikipedia:Wikiquette -St|eve 23:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

message: WP:EQ states that a user should (1) keep biases in check and (2) act to improve wikipedia articles.
If these two guidelines are violated, what is the recourse?  For instance, if an editor goes systematically through articles putting fact tags on pro-homosexual statements, or deletes them, but never contributes to articles, and appears to never make good-faith attempts to find sources to support and improve articles, that author is clearly failing to keep biases in check, and is motivated more by an agenda than an interest to improve articles.  Some may argue that this strategy, in the end, improves articles.  Maybe that's true, but it doesn't deny the fact that the WP:EQ principles are being violated.
In these cases, what is the proper recourse?  Should individual edits, which are in themselves reasonable but on the whole clearly violations, be reverted?  That seems likely to cause an edit war.  Otherwise, what is the procedure?
--Thesoxlost (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Means of addressing violations of WP:EQ 

message: On 1 January 2009 a string of 8 edits were made by an anonymous editor using IP address 71.155.232.61. The worst of these edits were false ("The system is based on the presumption that a popular position is a correct position") and the least bad were simply not on the topic of etiquette ("Write succinctly. Omit needless words.") Some of these edits have already been reverted, the rest I am reverting. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unhelpful edits by 71.155.232.61 

message: It is a nuisance that Wikipedia readers propose mergers of articles or lemmata, who definitively do not have the lingual capability of a native speaker in the repective language nor of any expertise in the topic. Who on Earth has set the idea that an encyclopedic database will grow on mergers? Could all those who like to find options for mergers think about the possibility that there are other views but one of two? Anyone who proposes mergers should be willing to contribute to additional stuff, but not just to save server capacity. Any objections that I might understand?Wireless friend (talk) 15:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unhelpful merger proposals 

message: I propose adding a point of etiquette to this guideline as a subsection of "Wikipedia etiquette", probably at the bottom of that section.  The text would look something like this:
I don't think this point of etiquette is formally stated elsewhere on WP but a review of project namespace and article talk mention of the term "scare quotes" appears to indicate that the above notion already has consensus behind it.  Also IMO this principle is genuinely good etiquette advice and very much in the spirit of the Wikipedia community's ethos.  But I wanted to propose this here before attempting to add it to the article, in case my impression of existing consensus is wrong or I'm wording it poorly or missing a significant aspect of it - so please let fly with comments and (explicit) criticisms!
To be clear, I specifically want to add this to the etiquette guideline because I really think it should merely be etiquette advice like the other things mentioned in this page: my intention is not to formally prohibit or proscribe this form of communication, rather to indicate that communicating in this way is not entirely polite or considerate and hence ought to be avoided in favor of explicit criticism or ought to be accompanied by explicit criticism. (I would also hope that when editors genuinely trying to follow WP:ETIQ stop to consider how to rephrase their indirect criticism into explicit criticism they might decide to just not be critical at all and achieve goals in other ways, in situations where that's appropriate - but I think that kind of behavior must simply be encouraged because it can't be enforced in any practical way.) --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 09:41, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for a point of etiquette: "Avoid indirect criticism" 

message: It is a fairly common mistake among people new to editing Wikipedia to use talk pages for general requests for information on the subject of an article or project page, rather than for discussing proposed changes to the article or project page. In the case of the Etiquette page at least the following sections are general requests for information (not always even on the subject of Etiquette):
*Is it a policy violation to make accusations of sockpuppetry on article talk pages?
*Getting my wikiquette questions answered
*Question about red links
*Question
*Unhelpful merger proposals
Also it is not entirely clear to me that the following sections are proposing edits to the project page:
*Why does this policy protect the extreme right? (And particularly smart trolls)
*I think.
Furthermore, all but one of these sections has been dormant for over a year, most for several years. My own preference in such a case would be to delete the sections, as being out of place and unneeded, but I know that there are many Wikipedia editors who think that past discussions should not be completely deleted, no matter how inappropriate they may be, so I would settle for archiving them. Any opinions? JamesBWatson (talk) 12:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I generally feel it's only necessary to delete posts that have no plausible connection to the subject (i.e., the guideline and/or the general subject of etiquette).  Tell you what: I'll just archive everything from before 2009, except for the "Register an account" thread, since it is active.--Father Goose (talk) 19:51, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

text: .  Howzat?--Father Goose (talk) 19:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Personally I feel that leaving in posts that shouldn't really be there sets a wrong example to people new to Wikipedia, and my own preference would, as I said above, be to delete them. However, archiving them deals with that problem. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that if they're totally off-topic, they can be nuked.  But if there's any indication whatsoever that the poster is making a comment in response to something on the article page or project page, it's best to leave it in place.  IMO.--Father Goose (talk) 08:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to remove off-topic material 

message: While meditating on the true difference of processing between WP:BLP and the others articles and why the others politics are applied more striclty in those cases. It became obvious for me that the true root of this was here in WP:ETIQ. While it's also obvious why this page is axed toward others wikipedians, there is no raisonnable reason why we should act disrespectfully toward anybody. I'm wondering if we could find a way to tell it on that page, just briefly. --Iluvalar (talk) 14:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLP 

message: Why do "civility, maturity, responsibility" appear in s at the top of the page?  The quotation marks make it sound like we're quoting something.  But the words maturity and responsibility (or variations thereof) don't even appear anywhere else on the page.  And it's not a quotation of anything.
Can't we render it ... like ... any other way?  Andrew Gradman talk/WP:Hornbook 02:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I quite agree. The quotes seem to be just a way of emphasising the words, which is not a good use of quotes. There are various other ways that could be used for the purpose if there should be consensus in favour of doing so (e.g. a box, bigger font,...). However, I don't see any good reason of emphasising them; they are quite prominent enough at the top of the page anyway. In the meanwhile the quotes have now been removed. Actually I personally don't see the need for the motto at the top of the page at all. It was introduced in June 2008 without discussion by a user who has since left Wikipedia, and so can't be asked about his reasons. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  why are we using the {{tl|cquote}} template for the motto? 

message: I don't dare edit a guideline page so I'm posting here.... the link to Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention should probably not be linked to from WP:Etiquette considering the notice on top of Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention. Right? :)
Reliefappearance (talk) 03:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite true. ("The notice on top of Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention" is the statement that the page is now inactive, and retained only for historical reference.) I have now removed the link. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ok 

message: Is there even any reason not to do so? Jeffrey Mall</font> (talk • contribs) - 20:08, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, I think the statement is just to add humor to this page, why can't we have a not strictly encyclopaedic page for once eh? but I see your point. ;) Microsofkid (talk) 19:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any reason to do so? 

message: Shouldn't mention of Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts be up top for people who run into this page when having problems they might want to get advice on? THanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:17, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Link now added. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts

message: If this is not appropriate, then you have permission to remove it!
I can't post a thanks on everyone's user page, but thank you to anyone who contributed to the Wikipedia: articles!
Microsofkid (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds pretty appropriate to me! Good to see a bit of Wikilove every now and again. :-) Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 11:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks to Everyone

message: I would say that I am a middling-experience editor with approaching a 1000 edits. For my first few years I worked on non-contentious articles where "gentlemanly conduct" was all that was needed to work on articles.  Then I had the misfortune to get involved in a couple of controversial articles. This topic does not directly relate to these, but to a issue that I can across in my editing on them.  The more experienced editors would often cite WP:RS, WP:V, etc. as a brief explanation to overwrite or undo an edit, and also resort to such shorthand in attempts to discuss the issues.  So my response here was to read and understand all of the frequently cited policies and guidelines, so that I could respond using an informed and evidence based argument. 
Now I have a different problem (I have seen dialogue where other editors experienced this also).  My knowledge of policies and procedures is fresh whilst some the editors sometimes work on stale and wrong recollections. When I point out that their edit fails WP:V because the relevant section says  X, or that  WP:MOS doesn't support their claimed position what it actually says is Y, they often dismiss the question, decline to respond or simply reiterate their first response.  This sort of attitude makes it impossible to have a negotiated discussion towards consensus.    Yet the very first section of WP:ETIQ includes the statements
* Do not ignore questions.
* If another disagrees with your edit, provide good reasons why you think that it is appropriate.
* Concede a point when you have no response to it, ...
So could we add another shortcut WP:ANSWERQ or something similar so that we can easily remind editors that this conduct is a basic requirement of Wikipedia ettiquete. -- TerryE (talk) 02:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduce WP:ANSWERQ or equivalent 

message: Is that really wikiquette?  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil  13:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think so.  If you don't sign your posts you force other people (the ones who even realize your comment isn't part of someone else's) to go rummaging through the page history to figure out who said it.  But if someone didn't do it I can't think of any really good reason to try to make them do it (insofar as anyone can even be made to do anything on Wikipedia) so it seems like it's a matter of etiquette. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 15:16, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Signing and dating posts 

message: The following seems like a dubious responsibility to place on editors: talk pages are said to be "a good place to comfort or undo damage to egos." I'm inclined to say that "Wikipedia is not therapy". Talk pages may be a good place to offer encouragement and tips to newcomers whose still-shaky skills have been displayed in the article space, but the encyclopedia is surely better off if we leave our egos at the log-in door. Ego only gets in the way of WP:NPOV and examining the scholarship dispassionately. Seems odd to hallow damaged egos with a guideline saying they must be nurtured like fragile chicks. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not seem to me that this is a responsibility placed on editors, it's rather saying that if someone is being an obstinate idiot the talk page is the place to kiss their ass with etiquette and validation (if you want to deal with their obstinacy in that way.)  Note that the next bullet point says "if your ego is easily damaged, then Wikipedia is probably not the place for you." --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 20:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ego massages 

message: Evidently, there is a proposed new process board for WP:Etiquette or WP:AGF issues, which I stumbled upon by following links at this guideline this morning. I don't see that this has been widely publicized and felt it might be of interest to those who monitor this guidelines. Please see Wikipedia:Antiquette. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've marked it as failed, as there appears to be no chance of this being approved (no support, strong opposition, bemusement at the reason for this). Fences&Windows 19:53, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Notice

message: San Rafael is still the highest airport in the world: How some one can remove it and replace it with an airport that is 60 meters lower in elevation is not reasonable. The standards are not the highest most commercial, most passenger, it is simply the highest airport in the world.
San Rafael has been a certified public use airport since 1981 and is service each week by ATSA a Peruvian airline.
Yes, a new airport when, finished will be higher, but presently San Rafael is the highest airport in the world and the Bangda airport is not.
DlwargiDlwargi (talk) 01:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... Is this somehow relevant to the Etiquette page? Gekkey Mathews (talk) 19:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Highest airport in the world 

message: Rajeshsng (talk) 14:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please Undelete page  

message: Please clarify in the text of the page. While discussing an issue if I use profanity will it be, should it be considered as a civil behavior? If not, what should be the remedy? There is an ANI thread and there one editor is repeatedly using the vitriolic f-bomb. I personally don't find it entertaining. One admin blocked him in good faith to cool him down, others came in and disapproved of that block. What is the solution to such behavior? Should we go to user conduct notice board every-time a user uses profanity (as a sign of deep disrespect) while talking to an admin? Mr T(Talk?) [ (New thread?)] 06:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is cussing in discussion on ANI regarded as civil behavior? 

message: :"Argue facts, not personalities."
I get that. The purpose of Wikipedia is generating good content for readers, not social activity. The focus should be on the content, not each other.
But what do you do if a previous disagreement follows you on to other edits you make? I think it's called Wikihounding? All I know is that I'm an IP now because with my previous username, a fellow editor basically tracked my contributions and challenged every one of them. Sorry for not being specific and naming names but this happened over a year ago and I'd just like to put the ordeal to rest (not dredge it up again).
Why I mention it here is that sometimes the facts or content are not the point, they are just a hammer being used to hit another user over the head. What if, for some people, it has become personal? All of the noticeboards I've seen are about resolutions of disputes over content, not harassment. Where should I have gone to resolve this situation when it happened? 69.125.134.86 (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is called Wikihounding, and no, it is not acceptable to harass users. There's info here on dealing with it, and WP:ANI is probably where you should've gone. — Reatlas (talk) 05:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  What to do if it IS personal 

message: Wikipedia: Etiquette was originally a policy, but was recast as a guideline in 2005. The explanation for that decision appears to have been lost, but the guideline's status was confirmed in 2006, as shown below.
===2005 change===
I just changed the notice from "policy" to "guideline".  For my rational, see Category talk:Wikipedia official policy. Isomorphic 05:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ComSpex is new as of March 2006 and I don't see any evidence that this page went through any discussion or policy-proposal procedures. So I figure they were just being bold, and I've changed it back. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I have plans to shorten the tons of bulletpoints.Forbidden User (talk) 17:10, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

text: Proposal:
Forbidden User (talk) 17:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

text: Guidelines tell people how to put policies into action.  This page does that.  For that reason, I see nothing good coming from demoting it.  It serves the exact purpose of a guideline.  --Jayron32 15:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future of WP:EQ 

message: I just changed the notice from "policy" to "guideline".  For my rational, see Category talk:Wikipedia official policy. Isomorphic 05:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 2005 change

message: ==== Policy? ====
I notice that User:ComSpex changed this page from a guideline to official policy (); where is the discussion about this (very significant) change? It may have stemmed from a question to the help desk () but that doesn't seem like consensus to me.Ziggurat 02:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ComSpex is new as of March 2006 and I don't see any evidence that this page went through any discussion or policy-proposal procedures. So I figure they were just being bold, and I've changed it back. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2006 discussion

message: I notice that User:ComSpex changed this page from a guideline to official policy (); where is the discussion about this (very significant) change? It may have stemmed from a question to the help desk () but that doesn't seem like consensus to me.Ziggurat 02:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ComSpex is new as of March 2006 and I don't see any evidence that this page went through any discussion or policy-proposal procedures. So I figure they were just being bold, and I've changed it back. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policy? 

message: WP:EQ seems redundant, and might be better suited as an essay in its current form. Due to the heated etiquette-related discussion happening at the RFC on word choice and cross-cultural sensitivity, I'd rather not debate demotion at the present time, but I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for shortening WP:EQ. It mainly discusses WP:CIVILITY, the WP:NPOV, WP:TALK pages, and not biting the WP:NEWBIES and might function well as a collection of nutshell summaries of the relevant policies and guidelines. The current miss-mash of bullet points and prose is lengthy and not particularly well formatted. G. C. Hood (talk) 21:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have plans to shorten the tons of bulletpoints.Forbidden User (talk) 17:10, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

text: Proposal:
Forbidden User (talk) 17:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Future (threaded discussion)

message: With the aforementioned RfC at Wikipedia talk:Talk page guidelines having ended, I am now proposing that WP:ETIQ be demoted to a WP:WPESSAY. As I mentioned before, WP:ETIQ mainly discusses WP:CIVILITY, the WP:NPOV, WP:TALK pages, and not biting the WP:NEWBIES. It seems redundant to mark WP:ETIQ as a guideline. G. C. Hood (talk) 16:49, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Guidelines tell people how to put policies into action.  This page does that.  For that reason, I see nothing good coming from demoting it.  It serves the exact purpose of a guideline.  --Jayron32 15:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Demotion (threaded discussion)

message: I've posted a new essay, Wikipedia:Maintaining a friendly space, which is based off of the WMF IdeaLab's friendly space policy. I would consider it a supplement to this guideline. I would in time like to see Wikipedia adopt a friendly space policy resembling this, but for now we have the essay. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Harej (talk) 06:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:FRIENDLY 

message: The WMF is on its way to impose a Universal Code of Conduct on all projects, obviously done by R&S, the people that managed FRAMBAN so gloriously. Looks for me like some kind of retroactive justification process for their botching of that and Superprotect and such. Grüße vom Sänger ♫  (talk) 17:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:m:Universal Code of Conduct]] 

message: Is it ever acceptable behavior online to revert a message left by a Wikipedian on a third Wikipedian's talk page? I was certain it was in Emily Post, but I can't seem to locate the page. If it is acceptable, what extreme and emergent circumstances would require such rude behavior?  Bearian (talk) 21:36, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I say it's acceptable when done to remove abuse or vandalism. HiLo48 (talk) 21:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting somebody else's talk page 

message: Are we using American English or British English? I see both cases being used.
″Do not intentionally make misrepresentations. Apologise if you inadvertently do so.″
″Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we had not. Say so.″
--Techmite (talk) 12:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apologize vs. Apologise 

message: A paragraph under How to avoid abuse of talk pages says:
"Do not label or personally attack people or their edits.
*Labeling editors or their edits with terms like "racist" or "sexist" make people defensive. [...]"
While I agree in principle, I find the phrasing misleading.
Misleading in sofar, because the refered to Wikipedia:No personal attacks lists under What is considered to be a personal attack?:
"*Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based on race, sex, [...]"
So I would propose, in order to reflect what Wikipedia:No personal attacks says, to rephrase the paragraph in question.
E.g.:"While its valid to criticize text as for example racist or sexist, such labeling though can make people defensive. ..." Nsae Comp (talk) 03:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph about labeling misleading? 

message: The article uses ego as a concept to explain the issue at hand.
While I understand what it tries to highlight I think the tone is scaring editors off, particularly editors who allready face outside-world discrimination or are not established editors.
E.g.:"If you are not prepared to have your work thoroughly scrutinized, analyzed, and criticized, or if your ego is easily damaged, then Wikipedia is probably not the place for you."
The tone in such examples sounds like:"If you dont have the balls to be scrutinized, then Wikipedia will not want you."
The tone should in my opinion be more like:
"Wikipedia lives from being scrutinized, that said being scrutinized, or rather ones edits, is a tough thing to get into. Wikipedia tries to invite users to edit as much as scrutinize. So in order to accomodate both things, not wanting to scare editors off, but also enable quality scrutinizing, editors should take care of those two basic needs and create a conduct between each other that accomodates the needs of editors as humans, and particularly underrepresented voices, as well as the crucial and at times heavily critical scrutinizing."
PS: Thank you all for working on Wikipedia as a communal project. Nsae Comp (talk) 04:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rough tone (e.g. use of "ego") & Wikipedia inclusiveness 

message: I read Wikipedia:Etiquette#Avoid indirect criticism in its entirety and could not for the life of me think of a single situation or encounter or conversation to which it would apply.  Could we have at least one example of what is meant by "indirect criticism" to clarify what exactly is being disapproved there?  – Athaenara  ✉  19:55, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indirect criticism example please 

message: Hi! This article seems like a good candidate for protection. Many Wikipedians treat this article as a semi-official social policy, and it's one of the first places where brand-new Wikipedians learn about our culture, and how to act in our community. I believe that it should remain fluid, in order to reflect how our community's etiquette may change over time, but I believe that some measure should be taken to preserve it as well. ^-^ 
Atomic putty? Rien! (talk)  (talk) 14:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Nominate for Protected Status?'''