Talk:Blagoevgrad Province

message: There was a move request to "Oblast", but a small majority was opposed. Radiant_>|< 00:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia.
I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. 
My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts.
Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia.
This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia?
Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs.
Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia?
If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!!
Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess.
But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it?
Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians.
Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family.
How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there?
Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito.
Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country.
Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians).
Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled).
Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors).
Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians.
If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed.
Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims.
Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web.
There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia.
The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect,
Igor Šterbinski
Skopje, Macedonia
is@on.net.mk
I AGREE 100% with Igor!! Have a look at this page: http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/stefov1.html
And its a Canadian page, not Macedonian! Arnegjor 11:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This site isn't neutral, but VERY pro-Macedonian. It might be from Canada, but was set up by immigrant Macedonians, and represents a clear point of view, not being neutral at all. So I don't believe it's a useful source, and doesn't even deserve more than mentioning.  → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → Talk 20:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dear all

message: Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article.  Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:Republic of Macedonia#POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article|POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article]] 

message: You all know deep in your soles that you are Bulgarians. The serbs made you "Macedonians" after they failed to make you serbs. I think that Macedonia should finnaly join Bulgaria. It is better for you, not for us.--Gligan 19:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  For the so called "Macedonians" 

message: According to Stoyko Stoykov, one of the leaders of the non-registered ethnic Macedonian political party OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN (abbreviation of United Macedonian Organization "Ilinden" - Party for Economic Development and Integration of the population), the present number of the ethnic Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia is between 5,000 and 10,000:
:EFA and OMO Ilinden – Pirin at a Press Conference in Brussels
 
:29 November 2006 | 18:27 | BNR 
:Bulgarian National radio (BNR)’s correspondent to Brussels Diana Chepisheva comments on the press conference organized in Brussels by the European Free Alliance and OMO Ilinden – Pirin
:Diana Chepisheva: The only MEP that attended this press conference was Bernard Juan, a Spanish MEP from Catalonia, a member of the group of the Greens in the European Parliament. Upon opning the press conference he stated he would talk on a very sensitive issue – that there is a political party in Bulgaria, OMO Ilinden, that it is directly connected to the European Free Alliance (EFA), but unfortunately it is not recognized legally in Bulgaria, and that they take this as a threat to EFA. Otherwise, Bulgaria is viewed as any other European state and that political parties should be able to take part in the political life everywhere. 
:Then the floor was taken by the leader of OMO Ilinden – Pirin Stoyko Stoykov. What he decided to underscore upon starting is that the party he represents is a civil and democratic one, but it has been permanently denied legal registration over the years because it was the only party in Bulgaria that defends the rights of the Macedonian minority. Stoyko Stoykov told about the way laws and rules have changed over the years, that before they needed only 50 people to register a party, then the number had grown to 5000, and later to 5,000, which in his words had violated their right of self-declaring and peaceful organization.
:Then a series of suggestions followed about the real existence of a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. And Stoyko Stoykov defined himself as its representative. He even summoned the audience to go and touch him if someone doubts his words. However, there were no people willing to do so.
:Another participant in this news conference was the co-chairman of the European Free Alliance Gunther Dauwen. He said he visited Bulgaria in September and that he saw that the official representatives of Bulgaria state that there is no Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. Now, after the debates related to the report by Geoffrey Van Orden and the already well-known amendment, he find it completely clear that official Sofia is persistently defending the thesis that there is no Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. In his words, this was foolish because there is just one problem that must be solved and that the Bulgarian authorities have had the chance to solve over the last 10 years but they haven’t done so, and that is why they should not get offended now that someone stands on the side of this Macedonian minority, whose rights are neglected.
:Gunther Dauwen underscored that Stoyko Stoykov is a Bulgarian: “See, he speakes Bulgarian”.
:The other thing he pointed out was that Stoyko Stoykov is not a separatist.
:The press conference was also attended by lawyer Yonko Grozev from the Bulgarian Helsinki Committee. He distinguished himself clearly, at the very beginning, from all possible political reminiscences. He underlined that he is there only in his quality of a representative of a party that has been denied registration, which something that the European Court on human Rights has defined as violation of the right of association. Yonko Grozev, of course, presented the well-known court decision, but did not take part in any way in the political discussion.
:Another thing that I find very interesting and worthy mentioning is that being asked about the number of members of OMO Ilinden, and about the number of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, Stoyki Stoykov said that the membership list of OMO Ilinden reaches about 6,000. Referring to the number of people that define themselves as Macedonians in Bulgaria, he said the no one knows the exact number of these people and it is the government’s fault since during the latest censuses in the country it has categorically denied to give a possibility for such a type of self-definition.
:Radio host: You mean that this type of ethnic origin is not included in the list of possibilities, as the options listed are Bulgarian, Turk, Roma, etc.?
:Diana Chepisheva: Right. That the option Macedonian is not included. The problem according to Stoykov, originates (according to his judgment and data) from that fact that there are between 5,000 and 10,000 Macedonians, while their number had even reached 187,000 during some periods of the history of Bulgaria.
:Radio host: Well, if there are between 5,000 and 10,000 macedonians, and OMO Ilinden has a membership list of 6,000 people, it turns out that more than half of them are members of OMO Ilinden, right?
:Diana Chepisheva: Yes, it seems so. In the mean time it was said that it is not only Macedonians that are members of OMO Ilinden and that there were representatives of different ethnoses. However, I would like to add something more about the figure 187,000 Macedonians back in the history. Stoyko Stoykov said that he was speaking about censuses in the period 1946 – 1956. However, nothing was said of course about this part of our history that is related to the forcefully Macedonization recommended by Stalin. Anyway, this was what was stated here.
:Asked whether he thinks OMO Ilinden stands the chance, if it gets registered, of overcoming the 4% barrier needed to enter the parliament, Stoykov refused to make some categorical comments and added that this is somethi9gn that must be checked in practice, and that if they cannot overcome this barrier on their own, the world has though of coalitions.
:Another thing that I’d like to add is that the co-chairman of the European Free Alliance Gunther Dauwen, asked whether he knows what the ethnic conflicts have caused on the Balkans and who needs another artificial one, he answered that he knows very well the history of the Balkans and that aim of the political formation that he represents is not to cause tension and conflict. The only thing that they would oppose as a European formation is the line of official Sofia according to which there is no Macedonian minority. We are searching for solution, not tension, he stated.
:The presence of media representatives was quite symbolic at this press conference. Although it was held in the main press hall of the European Parliament, it was attended by about 10 journalists, most of whom were accredited representatives of Bulgarian media here. There were also about 10 employees of the European Parliament.
:Els de Groen was not present, which does not exclude the possibility that she grounds herself on this press conference and reanimate the issue again during the upcoming debate on the Geoffrey Van Orden’s report on Bulgaria before tomorrow’s vote in the plenary hall.
Source. - Jackanapes 02:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The number of the so called ethnic Macedonian minority 

message: Ok no problem, I will leave it as it is. Also, as far as I can tell the term was first introduced in the 1920 or 1930s. Will check out my sources. Politis 19:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the name "Pirin Macedonia" isn't occasional as Bulgarian tradition. What Google says: 13,100 results for "пиринска македония" (Pirin Macedonia) globally,  12,300 in sites in Bulgarian language and 10,100 in Bulgarian sites. Note - there are 11,500 for "Vardar Macedonia" and 10,500 for "Aegean Macedonia" for comparison. - Jackanapes 22:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Occasional of not?

message: can remove the automatic redirect when you search 'pirin macedonians'. there is an actual article pirin macedoniansP m kocovski (talk) 21:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE; pirin macedonians 

message: Since less than 1% of the population in the municipality declares Macedonian ethnic self-determination there is absolutely no reason this group of people to be mentioned in a separate paragraph.Sorry to disappoint the Macedonists but there are 2 bigger minorities than the so called Macedonian, so mentioning the presence of Macedonians and their number is more than enough.Furthermore, even to the boldest estimates of the leader of the OMO, the people calling themselves Macedonians are between 1.5% and 3%.  --BulgarianPatriot (talk)
Once again, please stop reverting "information" which is obviously biased and doesn`t correspond to the requirement for NPOW.If you want to add something about the people with Macedonian national sense then do it in "Demographics".The previous version was imposing ideology of Macedonism which obviously is accepted by a very small share of the residents.Furthermore, this region is one of the biggest educational centers in Bulgaria and there are many foreign students, including from Vardar Macedonia which means that the number of the people who were born in Bulgaria is even smaller.Whether you like it or not, it`s from no importance.Just add once again the propagandist text and I`ll contact the admins or probably I should add very detailed information in the article for every single Macedonian municipality about the number of the people who applied for BG citizenship and signed declaration for Bulgarian self-identity.
--BulgarianPatriot (talk) 07:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, actually it's an admin who likes it as it is. It's much better than having an ultranationalistic irredentist article like Pirin Macedonia. You just won't believe what they had written. Btw if you can provide more info on Bulgarian citizens in RoM, you can go to Bulgarians in the Republic of Macedonia - it is in desperate need of attention since I don't have the time cause of the constant POV pushers around here. --Laveol T 16:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm reverting you again because I (and a few others) think it is worth mentioning the different points of view on ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria, which are related to this province. Their share of the total population is a matter of dispute, and that there is a dispute is the main reason for mentioning this ethnicity and not the others in the province. You are right that there is a separate article on this matter, but the text here is only a brief (maybe not brief enough) summary of that article, and quite well-balanced in my opinion. Preslav (talk) 16:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

text: It`s a matter of dispuite, really?According to official Skopie there are 2.2-2,5m ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria.According to official Sofia there are approximately 1.5m-1.8m Bulgarians with pre-dominant family origin from the region of Macedonia.Do you really believe that between 1.5m and 2.5m people(20%-35% of the total population!) are suppressed by the Bulgarian authorities and can`t express their Macedonian self-identity?As one of those presumable ethnic Macedonians, I feel extremely offended by the Macedonist propaganda.Even the political leader of the alledged ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria says that their real number in Blagoevrad region is at most 5.000-10.000.So, even if we accept the most optimistic estimation for the number of the ethnic Macedonians they are less than 3% of the population and remain less numerous than Bulgarians, Turks and Gypsies.Why then do they deserve so much attention?If you check the history of Republic of Macedonia you will find out that this country had never existed till 1944-1945 and all their heroes and kings were Bulgarians and in the Middle Ages the one and only name of the state was Bulgaria.Till the establishment of the Macedonian state not just the Bulgarians but everybody else used to consider these population as Bulgarian.Even they themselves registered in the censuses of the Ottoman Empire as such.In 1874 there was a referendum which church do the locals want to join and it was de facto official census.The options were- 1) establishment of local Macedonian church, 2)to remain part of the Constantinopole(Greek) patriarchate, 3)to join the Serbian church, 4)to join the Bulgarian exarchate.Do you know what were the results?The votes in favour of the Bulgarian exarchate were 97% in the Southern parts and 91% in the Northern parts of what is now Macedonia...And the number of the minorities is issue not just in Bulgaria but in Macedonia as well.Since the fall of the communism more than 80.000 Macedonians signed declaration for BG self-determination and applied for citizenship.Nevertheless, according to the Macedonian authorities there are only 1,400 Bulgarians in the country...Taking into consideration the impudence of the Macedonists to spread their propaganda, I`think that it`ll will be quite fair if in each article for adminsitrative region of Macedonia 30%-40% of the information is about the local Bulgarian minority.And in contrast to the millions of presumable Macedonians in Bulgaria, the Bulgarians in Macedonia are officially documented with their personal signatures.So, after 0.07% of the population in Bulgaria deserves so much attention then what should we do with 4% Bulgarians in Macedonian?
--BulgarianPatriot (talk) 09:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Macedonist propaganda was removed and there is absolutely no way to add it again. 

message: Please refrain from removing relevant information, even if the information is not to your liking. Two times in the last 24 hours, User:Pensionero has removed information about the ethnic composition of Blagoevgrad Province, more precisely by removing the entry about ethnic Macedonians (and grouping them into "others"). For people who are mainly using Wikipedia to get information (and not to promote their own ideas), this kind of information is definitely relevant. The argument "in any other Bulgarian province in ethnic groups of the minorities are showed only turks and roma" is not valid for several reasons. 1: It is not true, since even more detailed information is given for Varna (Armenians, Russians and several others). 2: Even if it was true, that would not be a reason for not mentioning it here, as long as it is relevant information. 3: It is especially relevant to mention the ethnic Macedonians in this context, since the province of Blagoevgrad is in part coinciding with what is called Pirin Macedonia, and it is therefore of interest to see how many (or how few) there are who self-identify as ethnic Macedonians. 4: As the source will show, the ethnic Macedonians in Blagoevgrad Province are the largest percentage of other ethnic groups than Bulgarians, Turks and Roma in any of the provinces of Bulgaria.
And lastly: Please use the Talk page for discussions. This talk page has not been used for a long time. It is better to resolve disagreements here than to make endless edit wars - better for the ordinary user of Wikipedia, that is.
Regards
79.160.40.10 (talk) 19:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There is no reason to remove ethnic Macedonians from the list, as the precedent you have found with Varna Province shows. I also concur that ethnic Macedonians are relevant to this province of Bulgaria. Pensionero's edits have been getting increasingly nationalist...  — Toдor Boжinov — 21:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of relevant information 

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