Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 15

message: I noticed edit where JR inside the nihongo template was changed to Jei-āru.  Do we need to add pronunciations for letters and numerals like that?  I know that this question belongs on the template talk page moreso than here; but, there's a wider audience here, and it is not so far out of this page's realm. Neier 08:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fine to do that in the rōmaji section since it's meant to be somewhat of a pronunciation guide for the kanji/kana section. It could be very useful in cases where the pronunciation isn't obvious to someone unfamiliar with the term. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: My gut instinct is that it is kind of silly to have a pronunciation guide for English letters ... but the reality is that they are indeed pronounced differently in Japanese than they are in English.  The Japanese Wikipedia page for JR also has the (hiragana) pronunciation guide.  There seems to be a stronger argument for its inclusion than its exclusion. CES 20:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do we add pronunciation for letters/numbers? 

message: I don't see the answer reading here, so perhaps someone can help. For fictional characters (especially those in Anime and Manga imported to the US), should we follow the Last-First convention ("Son Goku"), the First-Last convention ("Goku Son"), or should there be no hard and fast rule. In this case, the character's name is a Japanization of Sun Wukong. How should this be considered? JRP 02:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the name is either Chinese or Korean, it likely goes Last-First according to the generally accepted formats for those languages. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Names of characters in an originally Japanese work

message: Gene Nygaard indirectly showed me a useful template that I think would be good to use on all articles using macrons in the titles: . This will make sure the article is sorted correctly in all cases, including on stub lists and disambiguation pages. You use it like this: for the page Ōtsuka, placing  on the page will automatically make the page sort correctly on every category it's in. Thoughts? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a very helpful template. Just a reminder that when using this template for Japanese personal names of people born before 1868, the name order should remain the Japanese name order (family name given name) - without commas. So, . Otherwise, confusion will result. Pinkville 23:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I put a blurb in the sorting paragraph of the MoS about this keyword. Neier 22:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catsorting for macronned article titles 

message: The ongoing naming conflict at Talk:Ethnic Japanese is putting me under a bit of Wikistress. Please take a look at it. The issues are:
*Is "Nikkeijin", or "Nikkei people", acceptable under WP:UE and WP:NPOV?
*Is "Ethnic Japanese" acceptable under WP:PRECISION and WP:DAB?
*Is "Ethnic Japanese" protected by WP:ENGVAR?
I find, as usual, disambiguation to be the most important consideration, and the current title is ambiguous. But one way or another, this discussion needs more eyes to establish consensus, and I'm unable to successfully negotiate between the perspectives of the other two users who are most involved in the debate. I neither feel that "Nikkei" is mandated nor that "Ethnic Japanese" is possible. I will cross-post this at the talk of WP:MOS-JP because WP:NC shows deference to it. (originally posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan) Dekimasu 04:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming conflict at [[Ethnic Japanese]] 

message: Back in December, sombody moved TV Asahi → Tv asahi.  The first letter is capital due to technical restrictions only, but it is essentially tv asahi.
Now, according to WP:MOS-TM, you're NOT supposed to have all small letters.
If tv asahi is not allowed, and Tv asahi is not one of the alternate tradenames, I believe we need to move it back to TV Asahi (a more acceptable alternate) after all.  If nobody objects (or is bold enough to move it back), I will initiate a page move back to TV Asahi.--Endroit 17:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I think we can follow the E.E. Cummings and Adidas precedents here. talk to Ytny 17:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Fine by me. Be bold. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:25, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to move Tv asahi → TV Asahi.  But it wouldn't let me.  Admin intervention would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you in advance.--Endroit 11:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. LordAmeth 13:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[tv asahi]]" in all small letters 

message: Modified Hepburn romanization distinguishes between kana for short  & long  and short  & and long  with macrons as ō and ū, respectively, but how does it destinguish between short  & long B ()  (Man'yōgana  lit. "Anthology of Myriad Leaves kana")? For example, 故 (ko  lit. "deceased") has a different pronounciation from 己 (kö  lit. "oneself"). Obviously for short  & long A () 万葉仮名, we can write o and ō and ö for for short B () , but how do we write long B () ? We cannot use both a macron (¯) and diaeresis (¨) on the same character. Should we use Pinyin rules from Chinese? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taric25 (talk • contribs).
:There is no consensus that the 甲乙 distinction is on the vowel. In fact, the general thought for the last three decades has been that it was some kind of glide (/w/ and /y/). There are no short or long 甲乙; Old Japanese did not have long vowels. But that is beside the point. It is far outside the scope of Hepburn romanization. See my articles Old Japanese and Jōdai Tokushu Kanazukai for some assistance. Bendono 01:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MOS-JA says: "People who care about other romanization systems are knowledgeable enough to look after themselves." --Kunzite 01:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transliteration of long '''B''' ({{lang|ja|乙}}) [[Man'yōgana|{{lang|ja|万葉仮名}}]] 

message: I would like to get a discussion on the naming of nobles of the blood and others. I propose format to be "Title, last name, first name", such as Prince Higashikuni Naruhiko. For members of the imperial family it goes by the Household Agency, in that case "Title, first name, of House", such as Prince Tomohito of Mikasa. In case there is no confusion, it can remain "Title, House", such as Prince Hitachi. Can we agree on this? Gryffindor 16:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When it comes to the Princes who are most frequently known by that name, I have no problem. But there's already a great many Barons and Marquis (pl sp?) etc who are already at simply GN-SN, or SN-GN for those born before 1868. I'm fine with your proposal, but if it goes through, I think we should cover all the kazoku, oke, shinnoke, etc under the umbrella of it. I'm not sure where Fujiwara fit, though, as they're not Princes or Barons or Counts. LordAmeth 19:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  naming ōke, shinnōke, Fujiwara clan, kazoku and kizoku 

message: It has been proposed that Suzakumon Gate, which literally means "Suzaku gate gate", be renamed. But are we to move it to Suzaku Gate, according to "use English", or to Suzakumon, according to "use the most common name/term"? Please comment on the talk page of that article (or we can start the discussion here, if people deem it more appropriate). Thank you. LordAmeth 19:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mon 

message: MOS-JP states: "Article titles should omit apostrophes after syllabic n."
Last month this topic was discussed. From the discussion, it seems like a consensus has been reached about at least allowing apostrophes in titles. The remaining question is do we elaborate on the guidelines or simply remove it? I think it should just be removed. I bring this up because of a comment at Talk:Man'yōshū. Bendono 14:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing it should be fine, based on the previous discussion. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. Bendono 05:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article titles and apostrophes (Continued) 

message: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in any of the style manuals (and I'm sorry for wasting your time if it has), but I have a question about non-Japanese characters appearing in original Japanese works/literature. The question is: should such characters have the original Japanese transliteration of their names mentioned on the first line of the article (after the English transliteration, of course), or should the transliteration be in the language of whatever nationality the character is supposed to be? The reason I ask is because someone seems to be systematically deleting the Katakana spellings of Korean characters' names and citing their presence as irrelevant despite the fact that, in most cases, said characters appear in works that were originally created in Japan and written in Japanese.Shabby 00:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small question about fictional works