Talk:Kaiser Family Foundation

message: This is a really important health publisher in addition to whatever other philanthropy it does.  I'll add this to my watchlist and improve the article with reliable sources, but please give me some time.  Notability is totally not in question here.  This might be the biggest AIDS-related charity in the world. --JayHenry 17:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Righto.  It would be good to have some references which weren't from the Kaiser Family Foundation. Gillyweed 22:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability

message: It appears that the organization advocates the methods of reproductive health, which include contraception and abortion. This should probably be added to the article because those things are still controversial in many parts of the world. ADM (talk) 10:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Where do you see this? Zach99998 (talk) 01:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reproductive health

message: As a communications officer employed by the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation (also known as the Kaiser Family Foundation or KFF), I am raising the issue that numerous edits made by ChuckPhillipsMD in late August 2010 do not adhere to Wikipedia’s standards for “Neutral Point of View.”  Much of the contributions are conjecture and lack any citation.  In many cases, we believe the edits are inaccurate and misleading, particularly in the way they seek to connect our organization, the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, with other, unrelated entities that share the Kaiser name.  While we are named for a common ancestor, our Foundation is not in any way affiliated with Kaiser Permanente, Kaiser Foundation Health Plans, Kaiser Industries or any other Kaiser enterprise.   
It appears as though Dr. Phillips has a history with Kaiser Permanente and is trying to associate the Kaiser Family Foundation with Kaiser Permanente.  Since 1985, the two organizations have had no association at all, as is cited in the article on footnote 3.  
The edits show malice and intent to prove a relationship between the two organizations.  The tone, spelling mistakes, incomplete sentences and lack of citations suggests more of a rant than a neutral presentation of facts and history.
I have included below a response to each of the contributions in question.
Introduction:
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: The Foundation states that it is a "non-partisan source of facts and analysis for policymakers, the media, the health care community, and the general public."[1]
:Rsidel comment:  It is not necessary to say, “the Foundation states…” since there is a reference showing that this information comes from the Foundation’s website.   As written, it implies that this information is not true, but is stated as such by the Foundation.
History:
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: Often the Kaiser Permanente tripartate organization - Plan, Hospitals, and Permanente physicians - turned to the Kaiser Family Foundation for grants (no payback needed) and loans. This is discussed by Dr. John Smillie in his book called in secondary title The Story of the Permanente Medical Group. This included various startups including Hawaii. And there has always been a member of the Kaiser family on the Health Plan/Hospitals Board; most recently Mr. Henry Mead Kaiser resigned and Mr. Kim Kaiser took his place. Mr. Kim Kaiser's resume on the KP website shows that he was also at one time a Kaiser Family Foundation Trustee (no dates supplied).
:Rsidel comment:  Most of this (if accurate) would be more appropriate for Kaiser Permanente’s article.  Why is it relevant to the history of the Kaiser Family Foundation that Kaiser Permanent turned to the Foundation for grants? There is also conjecture included in the comments.  There is information that doesn’t make sense, such as “This included various startups including Hawaii.”  Lastly, there is no citation provided for much of the information.  A book is referenced, but is not properly cited.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: This was a loss to Oakland, although the KP organization is still centered there at One Kaiser Plaza.
:Rsidel comment:  The location of Kaiser Permanente’s offices is not relevant to our article.  In addition, the characterization of the “loss to Oakland” is conjecture, not fact. 
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: The composition of the Kaiser "family" is as private as is the KFF's history (very short online). Apparently, the "family" would mostly represent the descendants of the three children Mr. Kaiser had with his first wife Bess. These family members were apparently surprised that Mr. Kaiser's second wife was Ale Chester - Bess Kaiser's nurse (and often present with Mr. and Mrs. Kaiser in thier residences like in Lake Tahoe). Mr. Kaiser announced his plans to marry Ale two days after Bess died and the marriage took place within a month - in Santa Barbara. (This is discussed in the book Henry J. Kaiser Western Collosus on page 366-368.)
:Rsidel comment:  This information (if accurate) is not relevant to the Kaiser Family Foundation, perhaps more relevant to the article about Henry Kaiser.  Proper citation is not provided.  A neutral point of view is not presented.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: When Mr. Kaiser died in 1967, Ale got half the estate; the other half went to KFF. Ale sold all equities, moved far away, and remarried. Mr. Kaiser's children got very little directly but had the authority to run the Kaiser Industries businesses and the Kaiser Family Foundation. Thereafter, it is hard to follow the family influence - no online list of KFF trustees year to year, etc. Clearly the Kaiser businesses - other than Kaiser Aluminum - did not do well without Mr. Kaiser, Sr. and without President Roosevelt's need for private solutions
:Rsidel comment:  Proper citation is not provided.  A neutral point of view is not presented.  The information about Kaiser businesses (if accurate) is irrelevant to the Foundation’s history.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: According to the Washington Post 2009 article "Health Care? He's got it covered," CEO Drew Altman started in 1990 with KFF and directed "a complete overhaul of the Foundation's mission and operating style." In the reporter's words - reporter Lois Ramono - he changed a "sleepy grant-making organization" (some $30 million a year interest on the $400 million endowment) into a primary news source organization. "Altman concluded it would have to trade in information - not money."
:Rsidel comment:  Proper citation is not provided.  Contributor appears to be quoting an article, but is actually paraphrasing content from that article.  As written, this contribution fails to accurately portray the Foundation’s goals and functions.  A more detailed description of this is available on our website. 
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: The article does not map out the progression into trading in information, but KFF has progressed from funding polls through Harvard-Washington Post "partnerships," to giving reporters in health care awards, to funding reporters with "fellowships," and to finally hiring many of them full time to run the Kaiser Health News.
:Rsidel comment:  Proper citation is not provided.  A neutral point of view is not presented.  As written, it fails to accurately portray the Foundation’s partnerships with media organizations.  A more complete and accurate description of this aspect of the Foundation’s work is available on our website. 
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: The launch of the Kaiser Health News (KHN) in 2009 meant that KFF could through the news outlet tell people - in side to side comparison - what the two political parties were saying on health topics. And the legitamacy of KHN was and is to be assumed because the reporters were coming from former jobs at national newspapers (often the same ones that had contracts before like the Washington Post, the USA Today, etc.).
:Rsidel comment:  Proper citation is not provided.  A neutral point of view is not presented.  More information about the mission of Kaiser Health News can be obtained from these sources:  Kaiser Health News website, column from Drew Altman, president of the Kaiser Family Foundation,  New York Times article: Foundation Starts Health Policy News Service, and American Journalism Review’s Capital Flight.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: But the website did not and does not describe the previous and current "partnerships" with newspapers. Clearly the Kaiser name gets out with each article. The implication of a any poll involving KFF, Harvard University, and the Washington Post would be "trust" as if they came together in neutrality rather than the article being a KFF pay-for-view. 
:Rsidel comment:  Inaccurate.  Proper citation is not provided.  A neutral point of view is not presented.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: Also, unmentioned is the permanently funded professor chairmanships at UC Berkeley, Stanford University, Harvard University, and Johns Hopkins University. These are Henry J. Kaiser Professorships. The same four universities have experts who often show up in newspaper articles supporting the Kaiser Permanente (Health Plan) organization.
:Rsidel comment:  Contains irrelevant information.  The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation does not support any professorships.  The details of any such professorships and what academics say about Kaiser Permenente has no bearing on the work of the Kaiser Family Foundation.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: In one blog article (without a bibliography) called the "Legacy of Henry J. Kaiser" written in 2008, the author suggests that the original purpose of the KFF was to support the "medical plan." Also, there were comments that Mr. Kaiser had accumulated $2.5 billion. One blog responder to this was a KHN editor - Mr. Fairhall - who countered a comment that the KHN reporters seemed to lean Democratic in polotical donations - by saying that the Kaiser Health News was, in fact, "an editorially independent part of KFF."
:Rsidel comment:  Contains irrelevant information.  Proper citation is not provided.  A neutral point of view is not presented.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: In the end, salary dependence and editorial independence become the question of every media organization. Certainly any lead group that controls information going both to the politicians and to the voters has a lot of power over this large area of the state and federal budget. Moving the reporters inside KFF took almost 20 years of planning by CEO Altman. But the "Kaiser" brand name does get an "overhaul" as promised by him.
:Rsidel comment:  Contains irrelevant information.  Proper citation is not provided.  A neutral point of view is not presented. Contributions are conjecture.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution: Despite the continuous assertion that the Kaiser family only "started" the two separate organizations - KFF and KP - (same Washington Post article), the announced profits of KP ("excess revenue") of over $2 billion a year (Fitch bond analysis of the 2007 year) suggest that the parallel efforts of KFF and KP on the "Kaiser" brand name has money consequences way beyond just family name legacy. At the same time, the online KFF budget has over the years become less transparent and history shorter.
:Rsidel comment:  Contains irrelevant information.  Proper citation is not provided.  Information is irrelevant to the Kaiser Family Foundation history.  A neutral point of view is not presented.  Contribution includes conjecture.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution:  Those newspapers that might wish to explore these topics know that the Kaiser Permanente Thrive (health plan) organization spends $45 million a year in ads. There is an excess of silence as noted by the Wikipedia invitation (at the beginning of this article of KFF) that someone should try to explain more.
:Rsidel comment:  This is not relevant to the Kaiser Family Foundation.  A neutral point of view is not presented.  Contribution includes conjecture.
Policy Research & Analysis:
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution:  The Foundation publishes research and analysis of health-care issues, and states that much of its research especially concerns persons with low income or those who are otherwise especially vulnerable to health-care cost, such as the uninsured, those with chronic illnesses, or Medicaid/Medicare recipients.[4] For example, KFF formed the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured (KCMU) in 1991.
:Rsidel comment:  This is repetitive of the paragraph below it on the article page.
References:
:Rsidel comment:  The following two contributions to the reference section resemble citations, but are confusing and are not written in the proper citation format.
ChuckPhillipsMD contribution:
John G. Smillie, M.D. "Can Physicians Manage the Quality and Costs of Health Care? - The Story of the Permanente Medical Group." 1991 - Thanks on page "xi" under "Acknowledgements" were extended to "The Board of Directors of The Permanente Medical Group" ... and "the Kaiser Family Foundation." At one point - according to "About the Author" within the book - Dr. Smillie was the "government relations representative" .. and "liason from all the Permanente medical groups to the Central Office of the Kaiser Foundation Health Plan in Oakland, California." KP Web site: "2nd printing. Oakland, CA: The Permanente Federation, Inc, 2000. The Permanente Federation has reprinted and makes available this book for $2 per copy. Minimum order is 40 copies. Please arrange bulk purchases through Permanente Federation Communications at 510-271-5955."
Albert Heiner "Henry J. Kaiser: Western Colossus" 434 pages - Halo Books (August 1991) - Product Description - "Through a good portion of Kaiser's career Al Heiner was there - as a public relations officer for Kaiser Steel but also as an eyewitness to mainy of the events ..."
--Robin Sidel, Kaiser Family Foundation 15:51, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Several Contributions Lack Neutral Point of View 

message: I had talked with  from Kaiser Family Foundation on the phone and gave this person a little tour of Wikipedia. Rsidel wanted to develop this Wikipedia article, and I told them that there was a lot of ambiguity about Wikipedia policy in developing articles about one's own employer. The issue is the bias which comes from conflict of interest. Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide is one popular piece of guidance. I also said that editing the article directly is an option, and that I would review the article if they did edit it. Here is a round of edits from May 2015. I will review this version below. 
The lead seems fine.
The first paragraph in "Policy analysis and research" is without a third party citation. If this information is important to include, then it ought to come with a citation per WP:V. If there is no citation then it should be removed. Currently this is backed with a promotional citation back to the KFF's own website and their own presentation of their brand, instead of a presentation of how a neutral third party sees the brand.
The last paragraph in that section says "Kaiser is well known for public opinion research... often in partnership with major news organizations". The claim about being "well known" is without a reference so is WP:PEACOCK language and should be removed. The citations to verify the partnerships are considered self published sources, because KFF is a coauthor of these pieces. Organizations routinedly have partnerships, and they become notable enough for mention in Wikipedia when some third party - meaning not the organizations coordinating the partnership - mention it.
In the "health news and information" section it says "The Foundation also sponsors training and site visits for health care reporters". One citation for this is to KFF and the other is to a passing mention of someone receiving a fellowship. Wikipedia fact checking is brainless in this in that it is simply supposed to reflect what is said, and not draw conclusions. To add information about the Foundation's sponsorship of training, someone needs to have covered the program critically or in the spirit of journalism. A passing mention is not a reliable source for establishing that the program is significant enough for Wikipedia coverage.
There is a mention about KFF's support for HIV/AIDS awareness and this goes with citations to the CDC and the World Economic Forum. The precedent on Wikipedia is when a large organization mentions a partnership with a much smaller one, like government partnership with a private organization, then citing the government page is appropriate as is mentioning the relationship on the page of the smaller organization. There is no citation for KFF's support for Global Media AIDS Initiative and actually, if anything happened to draw attention to the Wikipedia article for that project, it would likely be examined for deletion due to lack of citations. Consider the stability of that article and its relationship to this one.
The history section is without citations but that is a legacy from other editors. It could be trimmed.
If I were to summarize all criticism, it would be to say that ideally a Wikipedia article should have every sentence backed with a citation to the source of information from which it is derived.
In my opinion this article is a fine submission to Wikipedia but it is likely than when it is reviewed (which could take years, or be triggered if KFF ever gets in the news) then everything without a citation is likely to be cut and the remaining citations will be considered against the model at WP:RS. 
Cool article! Good job! It reads well and is an improvement over what was there before.  Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:42, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updates from KFF staff 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: NOT moved. not PTOPIC (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 09:35, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: pages with content, such as KFF, are ineligible to be proposed titles in move requests unless they, too, are dispositioned. ":KFF → " was added to this request to meet that requirement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 19:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 15 June 2023 

message: Is the KFF a Think tank?  It seems to be quite similar to the UK Health Foundation which is categorised as a Think Tank, in which case it should be added to :Category:Think_tanks and List of think tanks in the United States Philh-591 (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: KFF is not a think tank. According to Wikipedia's definition "A think tank, or policy institute, is a research institute that performs research and advocacy concerning topics such as social policy, political strategy..." and KFF does not perform advocacy. KFF is a unique information organization "an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism." Rsidel (talk) 15:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it a Think Tank?  Wikipedia category and appropriate list 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. While it appears there is a suitable case that the article needs to be moved (as it is no longer a foundation, as described in the lead) the responses here do not indicate a preference for a move. Another RM should probably be opened with either an alternative suggestion we can agree with, (such as KFF (American organization), which was brought up but not mentioned by another reply) or suitable evidence that this topic is the WP:PRIMARYprimary topic for the abbreviation "KFF", which might be difficult as there are probably multiple condenders. (closed by non-admin page mover)  ASUKITE 19:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Kaiser Family Foundation →  – Apparently, the organization rebranded itself to KFF in May 2023 (I can't find a source for exactly when, but Rsidel, who works for the organization, requested the rename in June 2023 and cited some sources from May). Since then, it looks like independent sources have adopted the new name, making a page move appropriate per WP:NAMECHANGES. 
Here is a selection of articles from after the rename. I've made sure not to include articles written by KFF (since a lot of them do get republished by reputable sources), and I've quoted the first mention of KFF. It's hard to search for independent references because of all the republications, but in my own search I did not find any counterexamples.
* "Virginia lawmakers advance bills aiming to protect contraception access", AP, 16 Feb 2024: "Thirteen states had enacted some kind of legal protections for the right to contraception as of October 2023 and more were pending, according to research from KFF, a nonprofit that studies health care issues."
* "Are you in the wrong Medicare Advantage plan? What to review now", AP/Nerdwallet, 13 Feb 2024: "Many people choose Medicare Advantage plans without exploring their options or noticing what changes their plan may have made, according to research from KFF, a health policy nonprofit."
* "Governments can erase your medical debt for pennies on the dollar — and some are", Missouri Independent, 15 Feb 2024: "Americans owe at least $195 billion in unpaid health care bills, according to a 2022 analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data by KFF, a health policy research organization."
* "Faceoff between Anthem Blue Cross, UC Health shows hazards of industry consolidation", Sacramento Bee, 16 Feb 2024: "A KFF analysis found widespread evidence that consolidation of health providers leads to higher health care prices for private insurance."
* "Most people have problems with their health insurance but like it anyway" , CNN, 15 Jun 2023: "Some 58% of insured adults have had at least one problem in the past year, according to a survey from KFF, formerly the Kaiser Family Foundation, released on Thursday." (shared by Rsidel previously)
* "More Options to Pay for Medical Care, but Some May Be Costly", New York Times, 12 May 2023: "The average annual deductible — the amount patients are responsible for before insurance pays — is almost $1,800 for an individual with job-based health insurance, according to the nonprofit health care research group KFF." (shared by Rsidel previously)
* "How to Fight Back When Your Health Insurance Won’t Cover Treatment", Wall Street Journal, 15 June 2023: "Most consumers experience problems with their health insurance, according to a survey released Thursday by KFF, a health-research nonprofit." (shared by Rsidel previously) 
Neil Shah-Quinn (talk) 23:09, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Organizations has been notified of this discussion.  ASUKITE 03:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 16 February 2024