Talk:Crupper

message: The following in-line comment was added by Montanabw|Montanabw in this edit: not sure why the topic of roping horse saddles even came up here. Saddles sliding forward on rope horses is not an issue, saddles flipping up in the back is, the rope pulls down more than forward.
:The rope may pull down when an animal is roped by its feet, but other cases exist.  Eg, pull may be lateral (or up) when a large animal is roped by the head. --Una Smith (talk) 01:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The pull is somewhat lateral in steer roping for the horse that is the "header," but a crupper would play no role there anyway. I cannot imagine a situation where the rope is pulled UP, unless someone is roping giraffes or elephants!  LOL!  I basically just think the whole section on roping saddles should be cut from this article entirely because it comes under the heading of "all the times where cruppers are not used."  Any objection if we just chop those sentences altogether? Montanabw(talk) 03:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How about roping horses?  Anyway, the concern is with any jerk on the saddle that pulls the crupper forward.  Give it a little time, okay? --Una Smith (talk) 03:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll wait on editing until you pull the tag and finish your work (looks like it's an improvement overall, certainly in organization).  I agree that a crupper could cause damage if improperly used.  My point is only that no one would even think to put a crupper on a roping horse anyway, that's all I'm saying.  But if you must say it, then we need to explain why-- it isn't because of the fear of damage to the tail (though I suppose that could occur if some idiot tried it), it's because it isn't needed to counter the kind of pressure put on a roping saddle anyway. Montanabw(talk) 04:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph about no cruppers on roping horses needs to be restored.  It leads from the paragraph re cruppers were customary on cavalry horses and still are used on horses used to work cattle with lances.  Like cavalry and lance horses, roping horses (and polo ponies) also do quick stops and turns, yet cruppers are not used on them. --Una Smith (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it really doesn't.  It's undue weight to mention one of the many ways cruppers aren't used.  Saddles are more often used without cruppers than with them, if we wanted to mention every case of when they aren't used, it would never end...I mean for quick stops and turns on horses that never have cruppers on their saddles, we can include reining horses, cutting horses, show jumpers, polo ponies, cross-country eventers and the list goes on and on...the crupper has no significant effect on this, anyway, it mostly keeps the saddle from sliding forward on a horse with low withers and narrow shouders.  Why the Buttero use them, I have no clue, I can't say I've ever managed a cow with a lance, so why a crupper helps that, or if it's just a holdover tradition linked to some other reason (like going downhill a lot?) I couldn't answer.  The point is that cruppers are used on harnesses for absolutely practical reasons.  But on saddles, the only real need for them, including when trail riding, is when a saddle doesn't properly fit the horse or if the horse has certain types of very poor conformation, particularly mutton withers or a flat, roach back.  Even the mule saddle articles argue that a properly fitted mule saddle that accounts for a mule's flatter back won't need a crupper.   Some military saddles needed cruppers because armies went up and down hills in saddles that were not custom-fitted for individual horses.  Montanabw(talk) 05:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

text: By the way, a bitting rig is NOT used for driving, at least not in the sense of hitching up a cart.  it is usually used on the longe line, and sometimes, with side reins removed, for ground driving, but is not used for hitching -- no breastcollar.  The crupper just keeps the side reins and overcheck from pulling the surcingle forward, loosening the reins. I can clarify that later if you haven't the time to do so.  Montanabw(talk) 04:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When the handler walks on the ground behind the horse, it is called "ground driving" and it is a kind of driving (as opposed to leading and riding). --Una Smith (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but you don't need to put a crupper on a surcingle for ground driving, there's nothing pulling it forward.  The only reason you need a crupper on a bitting rig is if it's being pulled forward due to use of a side reins and/or an overcheck.  Hence, while technically ground driving is "driving," in the context of a bitting rig, which is primarily a longeing tool and secondarily used for ground driving by some trainers who happen to ground drive, it is important to be precise and not leave a wrong impression. Montanabw(talk) 05:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Also, a harness "saddle" is one term for one way of setting up the harness girthing system, the whole rig isn't a "saddle" -- see horse harness, where Richard did a lot of the editing.  For more detail, I dug around and found a couple "parts of the harness" diagrams that aren't too bad, see UK English version here, extremely detailed USA draft horse harness diagram here, and another draft horse harness chart without a crupper.  Montanabw(talk) 05:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  No crupper on roping horses 

message: I edited your latest edit, tried to meld the best of the old and new.  Went to a lot of work to restore footnotes and source everything.  If you are not happy with what I have done, let's discuss details here.  Normally when I edit these articles, I put in a lot of hidden text to explain each of my changes, but I am not sure it will work, so just comment on things you wonder about and we'll sort it out.  Montanabw(talk) 06:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk about newest round of edits

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