Talk:Gertrude Bell

message: Could anyone please provide a reference for the following quote: 
"I don't for a moment doubt that the final authority must be in the hands of the Sunnis, in spite of their numerical inferiority," Bell once said. "Otherwise you will have a ... theocratic state, which is the very devil."
Cheers, --SimmiBoi 12:43, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, found it. The article is still lacking in references, though. --SimmiBoi 15:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creation of Iraq 

message: The claim about her being more instrumental in the Arab Revolt than T.E. Lawrence is surprising; I am not a Bell expert but have read approximately everything by/about Lawrence, and do not believe this contention to be supported by evidence I've seen.  It is certainly counter to conventional wisdom, and as such needs some evidence.   Absent this, I think the claims should be written out of the entry.  Tim Bray 08:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Arab Revolt 

message: Oops ... I appreciate correction regarding GLB not inheriting her father's title, and went too far in interpreting her receipt of a diamond tiara in a package from her step mother in February 1922.  Perhaps she had some sort of entitlement just being the eldest offspring of her father and grandfather.  As a child of a peer of their rank, she'd probably be entitled to have the preface "Hon. (Honorable)" used before her name, at least. I'd like to hear views of anyone who can shed added light on the topic.  According to Wallach book, she wore it, along with her "orders," at her last official function in Baghdad on 25 June, 1926 ... probably just to get in some final fun as "intimidator."  Must add a curious note here; it may be of interest to contributors to this page.  The Mar/Apr, 2007, AARP mag has an article on Helen  Mirren (page 49) which reads as follows: "The mesmerizing thing about Helen is that beneath the totally convincing facade of a perfectly bred English lady of a certain age, there still lurks a coiled animal waiting to spring," says British film director Jon Amiel (Sommersby), who has been courting her for a World War I-era future film project.  
Hmmmm! 
Melizbaker 22:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inheriting Baronetsy Title 

message: I think these English nobility titles (here "CBE") should be spelled out.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.2.203.71 (talk) 17:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of acronyms for nobel titles in Wikipedia 

message: Since GLB was buried on the same day as she was discovered to have died, one wonders how the cause of death had been determined. Was there any story from her maid that she was accustomed to using Dial, or that the pill count in the bottle took a large drop on the night of her death? Dilated pupils would have been an indication of narcotic poisoning, but since this usually happens anyway when you die, what other indication was there that she had overdosed? Hot nights without air conditioning made getting needed rest difficult; sleep inducing aids were just about all there was to help. By July 1926, the heat of Basra and Baghdad for many years (10) had taken their toll on her, not to mention malarial attacks, and possible congestive heart failure (inducing pleurisy and chronic cough) aggravated by stress and years of smoking. While she was home on leave in England in 1925 she consulted doctors about her health. They advised her not to return to Iraq, but the record seems not to show that they found something wrong such as cancer developing. Her letters indicate that she had had a sinking feeling during one of her last ill spells. They also seemed to indicate that she was eating very little at meal times. Her last pictures have her looking anorexic.  A bad spell in the Fall of 1924 that really caused her to lose weight led, probably, to her musing that "an ending was approaching." So, on the night of 11 July, even one Dial pill on top of exhaustion from trying to swim in the Tigris (a swift river at times) could have tipped the balance from life to death. However, it would be characteristic of her to end it all "on her own terms."  She was not one to have been a burdensome invalid for anyone; nor had she any allies (after the departure of High Commissioner Sir Percy Cox) from her fellow "Intrusives" powerful enough to help her continue to fend off mischief makers and factions wanting to make sweetheart deals for oil exploration rights. A former boss of hers, Arnold T. Wilson, who generally disdained the idea of Arabians properly governing themselves and wanted Iraq administrated more directly by British personnel (as was done in India), had been fended off in the past and had lost out and left government service. At the 1921 Cairo Conference, he attended as a representative of Anglo-Persian Oil (eventually BP), and was continuing to hang around Iraq. Also, she was not appreciated by Baghdad's dealers in antiquities,  purloined ones or whatever. She was very diligent in her efforts to make sure as much as possible were intercepted and saved for the Iraq museum. The stress of getting exhibits ready for the June 1926 opening and making sure things did not get "lost" in the process was an added drain on her physical resources.  Supposedly she had recently sent a note to her long time associate K. Cornwallis, adviser to the Interior Minister, asking him to look after her pet dog if something happened to her. Was such a note the reason for speculating that she had taken her own life? Sometimes I wonder if K. Cornwallis was as true a friend to Gertrude as he was made out to be ... I think I read somewhere, possibly in "Churchill's Folly" by Christopher Catherwood, that after he left military service, he returned to Iraq, serving there as Britain's ambassador until 1945 ... which would make him seem very amenable to "going along to get along." Finally, she was running out of sufficient income to maintain her household. Dividends from inherited stocks and savings had diminished as supplement to her quarters allowance and pay from her position as Oriental Secretary. The deepening world financial depression and lengthy worker strikes in England were threatening her family's business and financial status.  Furthermore, she seemed to be losing zest for writing up reports; perhaps she really objected to reporting things as she was asked to do, especially as Britain had less and less to invest in administering their presence there, not only for security forces, but also for social programs that might help people in it's mandated areas. Finally, not really a robust individual to start with, King Faisal's health seemed to be going downhill; he was in Switzerland getting medical treatments for himself at the time of GLB's death. Were these treatments for cancer? Had she learned that he, too, after all the effort to find a prestigious leader for Iraq, was going to have his time cut short! If so, the prospect was mighty bleak indeed! One wonders what T. E. Lawrence thought when he finally heard how she died. Many were very surprised when T. E. L. did not accompany Faisal to Baghdad and support his transition to becoming Iraq's ruler. Instead T. E. seemed to see no way to live down his own perceived failure to be fully truthful with Faisal while yet having to serve Britain in the war, thereby betraying his own ideals by not keeping a knight's oath to tell the truth, always, though it may mean one's death. Instead, he chose to cut himself off with a symbolic sort of death by bailing out of all politics and public activities (and abandoning support of Faisal to Cox and Bell). Gertrude, however, never flinched from the consequences of backing her choices and decisions with her actions. Melizbaker 17:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion of Suicide As Cause of GLB Death 

message: To lighten up a little, I'd like to suggest that, for a lively and credible glimpse of a facet of English "society" when GLB was in her late teens, you might like to check out the movie "Topsy Turvy, Gilbert & Sullivan & Much More" (Rated R ... not for kids). It portrays how a slumping Gilbert & Sullivan revived their popularity by coming up with the "Mikado." Even if you've seen it, it may be worth taking another look at if you've been reading any collection of letters or recent bios regarding Gertrude. For only one small example among many relevancies, see if you can catch how Gilbert uses "pish tosh." Somewhere, in one of the bios of her I think, it mentions that she attended the opening night of the Mikado that is depicted in the climax of this work. It received two 1999 Academy Awards (Best Costumes, Best Makeup) and "Best Film" from a couple of other movie award societies.
Melizbaker
:"Pish-tosh": You have to transpose the vowels and read it backwards. PiCo (talk) 08:33, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Depiction of Late 19th Century English Culture Apropos to GLB 

message: In years of 1915-1916, there were no Turkish Republic(Turkey). Turkish Republic was founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in Oct 29, 1923. At the time mentioned in the article(1915-1916), the founder of the modern Turkey was the commander of the Ottoman Empire as Lt.Col. in Gallipoli campaing against ANZAC's controlled by British which resulted in favor of Ottoman Empire. Arab revolt was against Ottoman Empire at the time and there was no such country called Turkey. Details are here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.167.59.108 (talk) 20:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabs did not revolt against Turkey 

message: This was flagged back in February 2010, but nothing was added to this page about the reason. I have consolidated all of the individual citation needed tags into a section tag so it stands out better, and applied the original date to the tag. I do not have the required knowledge to source material on this subject. I've set myself a note to check in 6 months to see if there are any updates. If it remains without citations I'll remove the non-cited claims.  They can always be restored at a later date if a verifiable source can be found. Help with creating citations. Rjhawkin (talk) 23:39, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I've added some. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:16, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Work in the Middle East (Section) No Citations 

message: I thought that there the female equivalent to Commander of the British Empire CBE, was Dame Commander of the British Empire DBE. Not absolutely certain though. --Jnicho02 17:30, 31 December 2013
:: Her biographer, Georgina Howell, calls her a CBE. Page 356. Probably DBE did not exist at that period. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:42, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can a woman be a CBE or are they a DBE? 

message: The editors are not consistent in the transliteration of names. Thus we see two versions of the same name in this article, Hussein and Husayn. This is a general tendency in all written media and should gradually be overcome by some kind of standardization. SBader (talk) 13:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of "exotic" names 

message: In answering a query on this topic at WP:RSN, I came across some sources that discuss the issue of Bell acting as an unpaid spy/informant/information-gatherer in some detail and with some nuance. Placing the list here in the hope that it helps editors involved with the article (I realize that at least some of the sources are already mentioned in the article or in the discussion above):
*
*
*
Abecedare (talk) 22:53, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "spy" has a specific definition: a person who tries to get secret information about another country, organization or person, especially somebody who is employed by a government or the police. Being an expert on something does not make a person a spy, advising others about the subject they are an expert in does not make that person a spy. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:16, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone but editor Tiptoethrutheminefield seems to believe that Gertrude Bell was a spy. See Gertrude Bell: The Arabian Diaries, 1913-1914, by Gertrude Lowthian Bell, edited Rosemary O'Brien (already mentioned) and The Oxford Dictionary of National biography– though the the latter merely indicates that she worked for "military intelligence".  Rwood128 (talk) 23:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If one works for "military intelligence", isn't one, if not a mere clerk, an intelligence officer? Isn't "spy" a colloquial synonym of "intelligence officer"? CorinneSD (talk) 00:26, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think, CorinneSD, that she was a clerk! See also Janet Wallach . Wallach's is the author of  Desert Queen; The Extraordinary Life of Gertrude Bell (Nan A. Talese/Doubleday, 1996), which has been translated into twelve languages and was a New York Times notable book of the year. Rwood128 (talk) 01:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know she wasn't a clerk. I was just making the point that most people who work for British Intelligence are intelligence officers. Gertrude Bell worked for British Intelligence and was obviously not a clerk. She was an intelligence officer, ie., a spy. I'm glad you're adding additional sources. CorinneSD (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

text: I came to this discussion accidentally, via the RSN, my general observation would be that everybody is getting worked up in a yes she was/no she wasn't argument. Would it be more useful to ask 'WHAT was she doing for Brit intelligence'? In the past it was normal for travellers to submit useful info, legally gathered, to their home country's intell services. This was certainly still normal for journalists/business people/academics etc. visiting the USSR up to the 60's. Yes that makes one an agent/aide of Brit. Intell, but does that make one a 'spy'? I'm not sure. Certainly the label 'spy' without any qualifiers does imply illegal/secretive/hostile info gathering. People employed to read the newspapers/listen to the radio of foreign countries are engaged in 'intelligence gathering', but that isn't what most people would understand by 'spying'. Some human/political/economic intelligence gathering is perfectly legal and not necessarily seen by the host country as hostile. However, regardless, it seems much more fruitful to say WHAT her role/function/actions were than whether 'spy' is the apt label.Pincrete (talk) 23:37, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I must admit to being a little uneasy about this as a non-expert, because Gertrude Bell seems to have been much more than what is usually thought of as a spy. However, major biographical sources call her a spy, and she was employed by military intelligence – though this may have been a brief episode. What this article needs is someone who has read widely about Gertrude Bell, and the editor who objected to the use of the word spy didn't provide any evidence of having done that. Certainly the discussion in the body of the article might address the issue raised by Pincrete.
Rwood128 (talk) 01:35, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I an also not remotely an expert and endorse everything Rwood128 says about use of the most authoritive sources. I was simply arguing for a more nuanced approach from both sides. That GB had a relationship with Brit Intell does not seem to be widely disputed. What the nature of that relationship was seems interesting, but uncertain. I sympathise with Tiptoethrutheminefield only to the extent that if EVERYONE who supplies useful expertise/knowledge/background info to their 'home' country is a 'spy', an awful lot of diplomats/travellers/academics would also qualify as 'spies'. 'Spy' is colloquial and CAN be used for anyone supplying info, but it does ordinarily imply someone acting clandestinely and illegally. Possibly a more nuanced description would be appropriate in the lede if there is any doubt (co-operated with Brit Intell?). Pincrete (talk) 10:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Rwood128 that it would be good if we had a person who really knows what Gertrude Bell did for the British intelligence service to review what is in the article and perhaps add additional information to it. I understand Pincrete's concern that, because the word "spy" is colloquial, it could have a broader meaning than is desirable. I agree that the word "spy" does "ordinarily imply someone acting clandestinely", but not necessarily illegally. What is illegal, of course, depends upon one's point of view and on what legal system is being referenced. In neither the Wiktionary  nor the Merriam-Webster  definition of the word "spy" is there any mention of anything illegal. I don't understand, though, why, if more than one reliable source call Gertrude Bell a spy, there is any problem using the word to describe her. The details of what she actually did are the subject of parts of the article, and there is some mention of her activities. All we need are more details. CorinneSD (talk) 14:52, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

text: I'm certainly NOT arguing against the word 'spy', per se (I don't know the sources so can't). Merely pointing out the dangers of doing so unqualified by info as to WHAT her role/activities were. Since everyone is agreed to expand coverage of this, use or not of that particular word (or some alternative such as 'informer'/'agent'), becomes less crucial. Pincrete (talk) 15:53, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  More sources 

message: The article states that "She was buried at the British cemetery in Baghdad's Bab al-Sharji district", although the quoted reference source does not seem to contain this line.
Does anybody have a reliable, published, source that provides the exact location of Bell's "plain stone tomb" (Howell) in Baghdad?
The closest I can find is a 2006 article in the New York Times (see link) 
which provides some good clues. The quoted journey from the Armenian Church and the building in the background of the photograph allow one to easily speculate where the tomb might be, by using Google Earth satellite imagery. Both church and background building (and thus the likely tomb site within a small cemetery) are easily located in Google Earth, but my own personal OR is not allowed here - so is there a reliable published source that points to Bell's exact grave location? DavidJames21353 (talk) 15:35, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion concerning the exact location of Getrude Bell's grave in Baghdad 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Gertrude Bell. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add  after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://theava.com/04/0526-gertrude-bell.html
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/letters/l1434.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 22:34, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: tweeted at WiRed Victuallers (talk) 16:38, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Happy Birthday 

message: User:Joe Roe I'm not sure why you reverted this. My logic when making the edit was that 'rather inordinate' was vague, almost self-contradicting (= "somewhat excessive"). 
I question whether "inordinate" is actually the best term, since what is being said is that G Bell had a surprising large amount of influence, not that she had too much, (would considerable?/substantial be better?).Pincrete (talk) 11:43, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I meant to revert the edit before yours (that changed the meaning of the sentence from her influence being unusual because she was a woman to being unusual because she was "among the Arabs"). I misread and thought both edits were by the same person. – Joe (talk) 12:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rather inordinate? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Gertrude Bell. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071010051248/http://www.mirror.co.uk/tm_objectid%3D17061225%26method%3Dfull%26siteid%3D94762%26headline%3Dbritish--queen-of-iraq--rests-in-baghdad-cemetery-name_page.html/ to http://www.mirror.co.uk/tm_objectid=17061225%26method=full%26siteid=94762%26headline=british%2d%2dqueen%2dof%2diraq%2d%2drests%2din%2dbaghdad%2dcemetery-name_page.html/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:56, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: NPOV  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.201.254 (talk) 03:56, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hagiography not biography. 

message: User:Berocca Addict  regarding this revert. It is actually AFTER the bit which you restored when she begins to discuss Zionism. The bit you restored is about the medical 'hardiness' of Arabs: " Medical organization is of the very first importance, …  Hospitals and dispensaries are the first things the people ask for, and they flock to them, men and women, and don't hesitate to undergo operations or any treatment you please. Capt. C.E. says the standard of vitality is much higher than in Europe; the people here pull through operations which he would not dare to attempt at home. Their nervous system is much more solid; they don't suffer from shock. The Jews here are much more like ourselves in these respects and contrast ill with the vigorous primitiveness of the Arab". So apart from this NOT being about Zionism, it's Bell quoting/expounding someone else's opinion in a primary source. Though admittedly one which she appears to endorse.
It is immediately AFTER this quote that she begins to speak about Zionism: "By the way, I hate Mr Balfour's Zionist pronouncement with regard to Syria. It's my Bellief that it can't be carried out; the country is wholly unsuited to the ends the Jews have in view; it is a poor land, incapable of great development and with a solid two thirds of its population Mohammadan Arabs who look on Jews with contempt. I think myself that they will ficher themselves pas mal of Zionist ambitions, which it would be an invidious task to try and force upon them. To my mind it's a wholly artificial scheme divorced from all relation to facts and I wish it the ill-success it deserves - and will get, I fancy".
The source incidentally doesn't say either that she thought that "it would be impossible to impose Jewish rule on Arab inhabitants of Palestine." as our text does, and I think a better word than "impossible" should be found. "Unfair" which used to be the word used summarises better the "invidious task to try and force upon them" part of her letter, but possibly no single word summarises this adequately.Pincrete (talk) 17:56, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zionism 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:37, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: USER:Joe Roe regarding the google scholar link you left here only one of the first 5 sources I looked called Bell a 'spy', the other 4 were either using the word to discuss other people, or one discusses whether Bell should be called a spy - concluding that it matters little, as what is known is what she did do, which is send regular reports back that she gathered because she was a trusted figure among locals. No one doubts that Bell helped UK military intelligence, but then so did all diplomats, travellers and military/colonial figures of the time. Unless you claim that anyone sending openly available info to the British govt is automatically a 'spy', it is difficult to see what the word means in relation to Bell.
Further, where is the coverage in the article of any 'covert spying activities' by her - surely the minimum requirement to being a spy is that you are sending info which your hosts wish to protect. I grant that some biographers have interpreted her sending reports as 'spying', but it isn't anything like universal and is hard to understand what it means as most of her info was either 'human intelligence' (assessments of local figures), or cartographical or local cultural info. Pincrete (talk) 07:41, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We can agree or disagree on whether Bell's activities constituted spying, but if as you acknowledge more than one of her biographers describe her as one, that should be enough to support the inclusion of a category. WP:CATDEFINING doesn't require universal coverage and I don't think many of the other categories the article currently includes would survive that standard. – Joe (talk) 08:03, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: CATDEFINING actually says "For example, Italian and artist are defining characteristics of Caravaggio, and so of the article on him, because virtually all reliable sources on the topic mention them." (italics mine). Roughly one in 5 sources describing Bell as a 'spy', even once - (as opposed to some other description of her aid to UK Govt) - hardly meets "virtually all reliable sources". What concers me is that anyone interested in the topic is going to come here and find no coverage of any actual 'spying'. Pincrete (talk) 08:32, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spy?