Talk:Today I Am a Clown

message: The situation with SLH not having been neutered is similar to The Unkindest Cut of All episode of Frasier. Is this worth mentioning? --MartinUK (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Similarity

message: Could someone explain to me why this entry: "In the episode Helter Shelter Homer is upset that 1895 is too late to save Lincoln and too early to save Kennedy, and in this episode he fantasizes about doing both." is so important to include?  It seems to be OR to me, or otherwise irrelevant to this article.  Croctotheface (talk) 00:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It reveals a new uniqueness to Homer Simpson. It is only the second mention of his desire to save a president's life. It is the same two presidents mentioned in both episodes. His fantasy in this episode shows that it wasn't a one-off joke in 'Helter Shelter'. The joke in this episode is notable because it made a joke from a previous episode more interesting. There is also a good chance that this fantasy of his has come about because of his days as Quimby's bodyguard. That chance makes it even more notable, because if true it's a full on story-arch.   MJD86 (talk) 02:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand why you think it's interesting, but believing it to be relevant because of these connections that you're making yourself is pretty much the definition of original research.  Croctotheface (talk) 11:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The entry points out strong similarities which occurred entirely within two different scripts. It makes no mention as to why it should be interesting beyond that. Nothing there contains anything that would have to come from original research. MJD86 (talk) 17:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think you should familiarize yourself with WP:OR, then.  The assertion that there are "strong similarities" is certainly your personal analysis of the issue.  Croctotheface (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The entry leaves it entirely up to the reader to determine whether the two things are similar. Is a fantasy of Homer wanting to change two specific things from the past similar to him being upset that he could change the past but specifically not those two things? It's even more similar than that as he mentioned there after that it was not a time machine. If he was aware of this while he made that comment in Helter Shelter than that too was a type of fantasy. One episode features a fantasy about him saving Lincoln or Kennedy and another episode features a fantasy about him saving Lincoln and Kennedy. MJD86 (talk) 02:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just by including them you're inviting the readers to make some sort of connection.  Otherwise, why else mention something that happens in a different episode unless you mean to suggest that the readers should draw the same connection that you do?  You're synthesizing primary sources (in this case, the dialogue of two Simpsons episodes) to make an analysis of Homer's character, motivations, and desires.  It's not our job, per WP:OR, to make these kinds of connections or compile this kind of information.  It's original research and should not be included.  Croctotheface (talk) 03:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no mention as to why it should be interesting! People are certainly free to believe that there is no connection whatsoever. I do not know if there is a connection, no one does. There was no synthesis as these moments were not combined in the entry. At least by anything further than the word "and" which could easily be removed if necessary. I have not changed the meanings of the moments in either of the episodes. Any connection that people can draw from that is due to the writing staff that decided to include Homer's fantasy in this particular episode. Had they not included that we would be deprived of an interesting moment. You are also free to draw a connection with that last sentence. MJD86 (talk) 06:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, if we don't know that it's relevant to this episode, how is it relevant to this article?  This goes back to what I said before.  If we say that we don't know whether there's a connection, then we're just inserting random facts.  If we believe there is a connection, then we're engaging in synthesis, which violates WP:SYN.  Croctotheface (talk) 06:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As I had intended to restate, there is an obvious connection between the content of the scenes but it is unknown if there is any connection as to why they are there.MJD86 (talk) 18:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if it is "obvious", it is still synthesis. I would also note that trivia sections are  discouraged by WP:TRIV. --Asmodeus Samael (talk) 22:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

text:  Homer's friendship with Gerald Ford surely had something to do with his desire to save presidnets lives. Gerald Ford had twice survived assassination attempts. 64.72.6.33 (talk) 18:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is a big part of the story-arch. MJD86 (talk) 22:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Relevant and notable trivia"?