Talk:Empress Jingū

message: In the Korean Samguk Sagi, there is very little mention of Goguryeo or Baekje. This is because the author, Kim Bu-sik wrote the record as that of the successor state to Silla, a traditional rival of both Goguryeo and Baekje. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that some bias has taken place in the Samguk Sagi with regards to the two other nations, and this is an example of bias in historical documents, and it is not the only bias.
The veracity of the Book of Song is disputed because of its missing sections and the tone with which it is written, as well as its treatment of surrounding nations and ethnic groups. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Song In addition, at the time when the record was written, the Liu Song dynasty was on friendly terms with Baekje only; when it established ties with Yamato Japan, the nations listed (except for Baekje) are diplomatically unknown entities. http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi5-5.pdf
Egami notes in 1964 that it may look very strange that the names of six or seven
states listed in the self-claimed titles included Chin-han and Ma-han which had
preceded, respectively, the states of Silla and Paekche. Perhaps the King of Wa had included the names of six or seven south Korean states in his title merely to boast of the extent of his rule. But Wa Kings could not have included the names of nonexistent
states. One may then conclude that the remnants of Chin-han or Ma-han
existed as other members of the Kaya Federation by the time Wa Kings sent their
embassies to China in the fifth century, because according to the Samguk Sagi, Silla established the first contact with the Southern Chinese Dynasties in A. D.
521 by sending an envoy to the Court of Liang along with the Paekche envoy.http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi5-5.pdf
In Nihongi book 1, page 263, in the 16th year of Ojin's reign, King Ahwa (same as King Asin) died. King Ahwa reigned in Baekje from AD 392-405 (i.e. he was in his 14th year when he died), so this means Ojin's reign begins in AD 390 (two years before King Ahwa of Baekje, although because of Nihongi's time system Ojin's reign is listed as starting in AD 270, exactly 120 years, or two 60-year cycles, before it actually began). In that record, Emperor Ojin sends Baekje Prince Työnchi (Cheonji) back to Baekje, saying to effect: "return to your country and continue the royal line." Then Ojin granted the prince the territory of the Eastern Han. This record indicates that Ojin formally renounced all claims to Baekje territory. This record also shows that Yamato Japan and Baekje were very close.
Aston says about Nihongi: "Even so late as the beginning of the 5th century the chronology can be shown to be wrong in several cases by no less an interval than 120 years.... The first date in the Nihongi which is corroborated by external evidence is A.D. 461, but the chronology is a little vague for some time longer. Perhaps if we take A.D. 500 as the time when the correctness of the Nihongi dates begins to be trustworthy, we shall not be very far wrong." 
In addition, Tsuda Sokichi wrote that when writing of matters related to Paekche, Silla and Kara, they (referring to the authors of the Japanese histories, in this case Nihongi and Kojiki)
applied the writing method of uplifting the current authority in the fashion of Chinese and Confucian ideologies. Tsuda states that those were the authors’ ideologies, and had nothing to do with realities.http://www.ml-shopping.com/wiki/Yamato_period.html It is possible that they were written in this way because of the tensions between Silla and Yamato at the time they were written.http://www.ml-shopping.com/wiki/Yamato_period.html
All of this shows that historical texts and what they say must be considered carefully and what they say, especially in the print versions (as they were all written by one or a limited number of individuals) cannot all be taken as literal truth.
# "Book of Song." Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Song
# "Five Kings of Wa." Baekche of Korea and the Origins of Yamato Wa of Japan. http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi5-5.pdf p.255
# "Five Kings of Wa." Baekche of Korea and the Origins of Yamato Wa of Japan. http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi5-5.pdf p.256
# Nihongi: Chronicles of Japan from the Earliest Times to A.D. 697, translated from the original Chinese and Japanese. W.G. Aston. http://books.google.com/books?id=1IJrNAKBpycC&dq=aston+nihongi&pg=PP1&ots=MHQwccyV_A&sig=R1mo5I2d7VSgLrkEcrJNxdkEejQ&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Aston+nihongi&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR16,M1 p.xvii-xviii
# "History Texts." ML (Machine-Learning) Shopping. http://www.ml-shopping.com/wiki/Yamato_period.html
# "History Texts." ML (Machine-Learning) Shopping. http://www.ml-shopping.com/wiki/Yamato_period.html
Ecthelion83 (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grounds for caution 

message: ** Chinese History Record Book of Sui, Vol. 81, Liezhuan 46 : 隋書 東夷伝 第81巻列伝46 : 新羅、百濟皆以倭為大國，多珍物，並敬仰之，恆通使往來 "Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country, with many rare and precious things; also [Silla and Baekje] respect and look up to them, and regularly send embassies there." 
http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/suisu/sui_081.htm
http://www.chinakyl.com/rbbook/big5/25/suishu/suis81.html
------------------------------
that translation was definitely wrong and POV forking. Japanese wikipedia user depict as "Japan was Great than Korea". but, it was a definitely wrong. Check full text http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/24shi/suisu/sui_081.htm , 
*"安帝时，又遣使朝贡，谓之倭奴国。"
: On Emperor An of Han period, They sent envoy to han China, and tribute to Han China, Japan called as "Slave state" [by China].  
*"无文字，唯刻木结绳。敬佛法，于百济求得佛经，始有文字。"
:Japanese learned characters and buddhism from baekje, this is the origin of characters in Japan
*"有如意宝珠，其色青，大如鸡卵，夜则有光，云鱼眼精也。新罗、百济皆以倭为大国，多珍物，并敬仰之，恆通使往来。故大业三年，其王多利思北孤遣使朝贡。"
:有如意宝珠(Japan have treasure things)，其色青(color is blue)，大如鸡卵(size as egg)，夜则有光(bright at night)，云鱼眼精也。(it called as 鱼眼精) 新罗、百济皆以倭为大国，多珍物，并敬仰之，恆通使往来 (Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed it(many rare and precious things), and regularly send their person there." 故大业三年，其王多利思北孤遣使朝贡。(On 大业三年 period, Japan's King tributed to China)
::敬仰(jìng yǎng) highly esteemed http://us.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddictbasic&wdqb=%E6%95%AC%E4%BB%B0&wdrst=0&wdeac=1
'Japan land' have some treasure things, so, Silla and Baekje want their treasure things. [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed treasure things. This is not mean, Japan is stronger or great country than Korea. Previous edit was definitely wrong translation.Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 22:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Pushing 

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
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Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 02:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

message: I couldn't help myself. I went to my local library after work today and checked both the 3-volume (around 1,000 pages) Chikamatsu Monzaemon-shū in Shogakukan's Nihon Koten Bungaku Zenshū and the 2-volume (a little less) Chikamatsu Jōruri-shū in Iwanami Shoten's Nihon Koten Bungaku Taikei. To the best of my knowledge these two series are the best-regarded printed Japanese editions of most works of classical Japanese literature, and tend to be used by western translators as their source texts. However, the former 3-volume edition did not include the play in question at all. The latter did include it, and surpisingly enough it indicated (on page 40) that the name was pronounced "Jingū" instead of "Jingu". So basically I'm stumped. Right now I'm convinced that either the translator was working from a different version of the text (there must be more than one, even for a relatively obscure work like this that was completely omitted from the Nihon Koten Bungaku Zenshū), or he deliberately spelled her name the way it is officially pronounced according to several Shinto shrines and prefectural shrine bureaus. However, that's not all Shinto shrines, and it's being used in one translation of an obscure Chikamatsu play where she's barely mentioned, but both names still exist and so we need to distinguish them, and choose which is to be the main article title. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: So as you pointed out in your preface, there are multiple sourced spellings in English and Japanese sourcing. I can live with either but would still lean towards Jingū. One sticky wicket though is per the last rfc and my understanding of it, we should not have both spellings in the prose of the article. If we rename it "Empress Jingū" we aren't supposed to have it spelled "Empress Jingu" anywhere in the article. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thing is, the article actually wasn't updated when the page was moved, because at that time it was assumed that they are just variant romanizations of the same name, and the title was at the most basic form (i.e., the one people can type on their keyboards). But the problem now is that it seems these are also the same romanization system's way of spelling two different variant names (most Shinto deities have a large number of different names). Honestly, if no one can find an actual reason why she is sometimes called "Jingu", or a source that specifically discusses both pronunciations, I don't really mind the reference to "Jingu" I added to the opening sentence being removed. But this is getting frustrating. Trawling through an 18th-century jōruri play in the original Japanese to find a very specific passage, and then being disappointed by its failure to answer the question as to why the translation spells her name the way it does, was a weird experience (to be polite). Now I'm just hoping someone eventually finds the answer. BTW, this is a separate section because it has no real relation to the above RM; we should definitely not be using an obscure variant pronunciation as the main title of the article. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chikamatsu's ''Twins at the Sumida River'' and Empress Jingū 

message: This article is in many ways a mess. It has become a series of arguments in favor of and against the historicity of Jingu's invasion of Korea. This in turn has been reduced to whether or not you support Korean or Japanese nationalism. As such this article is not written from a neutral point of view, it is written from tendentious and biased points of view.
The section "Controversy" misses the main point. The crux of the controversy is not whether or not Jingu was real or whether she invaded Korea. The crux of the controversy is that Jingu's alleged conquest of Korea was used as justificiation for the Japanese colonization of Korea in the early 20th century. Therefore, the story of Jingu has become politicized. The historical accuracy of the story takes second place to arguments over the justification or lack thereof of the Japanese annexation of 1910. 
We need a separate section in this article that presents the historical context of the debate over Jingu, explicitly mentions the twentieth century conflict between Korea and Japan and situates the controversy over Jingu squarely within that context. Otherwise readers of this article cannot understand the reasonings behind the way this article has been developed over the years.
Specific problems with the article include:
1. ″No firm dates can be assigned to this historical figure's life or reign. Jingū is regarded by historians as a "legendary" figure because there is insufficient material available for further verification and study.″ Here we are told in sentence 1 that Jingu is a historical figure, and in sentence 2 that Jingu is a legendary figure. The second sentence must be removed or modified. Some historians believe Jingu was historical, some legendary, so at the very least the word "some" must be added, but even then the sentence requires references. It is best removed as biased, unsupported, and tendentious. "Insufficient material for verification and study" is a clearly false description of the actual situation, there is an abundance of material and research on Jingu is ongoing.
2. The section entitled "Legendary Narrative" does not provide any such thing.
3. "Some believe that Empress Jingū's conquest is only based on the Gwanggaeto Stele", no references, tendentious and argumentative language.
4. "The Chinese Book of Song of the Liu Song Dynasty, written by the Chinese historian Shen Yue (441–513), notes the Japanese presence in the Korean peninsula. However, the Liu Song dynasty, as a southern Chinese dynasty of ancient times, had little contact with northeast Asia and most historians in Japan, Korea, and elsewhere believe that this dynasty most likely treated Baekje, Silla, and Yamato Japan as one and the same. It is unlikely that this error was committed with regards to the Sui Dynasty and Goguryeo because they were major powers at the time."
No references. No references for relations between Liu Song and northeast. Statement that Liu Song couldn't tell the differene between Korea and Japan is unreasonable and needs to be removed. "It is unlikely that this error was committed with regards to the Sui Dynasty and Goguryeo because they were major powers at the time" assumes the truth of the prior statement that the book of Song must be mistaken. No Chinese court would fail to understand the difference between Baekje, Silla, and Japan, much less a court based in the mercantile center of Jiankang. This is an example of what I am talking about, there is no good reason to doubt the book of Song here, except if your point of view is dedicated to rejecting any notion of Japanese presence in Korea.
5. "most historians in Japan, Korea, and elsewhere believe that this dynasty most likely treated Baekje, Silla, and Yamato Japan as one and the same" Completely false statement that must be removed
6. "She led an army in an invasion of Korea and returned to Japan victorious after three years. However, there is no evidence of her rule in any part of Korea"
Here the article references the Cambridge encyclopedia, but in my opinion this is misleading. 
Further research shows following:
ISBN listed,  0521223520, leads to 1993 edition of Cambridge History of Japan, not 1998. Article was by Okazaki Takashi, not John Whitney Hall. What Takashi actually says is that the Nihon Shoki and Kojiki portray a Japanese colony in Japan, but Korean sources don't substantiate this. However Japanese presence in Korea at that time "whether a colony, a tributary state, or an ally" (actual quote, page 308) is unquestioned. 
It would also be nice to have the actual "legendary narrative" as promised by the header, if anyone can actually summarize what the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki say about her, that would be very helpful.
The article should begin with the summary of Kojiki and Nihon Shoki, continue with a list-form, completely neutral presentation of evidence outside the legends, and include a frank discussion of the context of the controversy, before listing arguments within that controversy, clearly identified as arguments rather than facts.
Jroo222 (talk) 15:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: From the page for Chuai, it seems like the Niohn account doesn't explicitly identify Korea as the destination of the conquest, that's just conjectures.  What if it was actually in the opposite direction?--JaredMithrandir (talk) 16:29, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with this article 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071214195526/http://www.imes.boj.or.jp/cm/english_htmls/history_18sub.htm to http://www.imes.boj.or.jp/cm/english_htmls/history_18sub.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified