Talk:Alexander the Great/Archive 9

message: A Man in Black, if we're going to the Socratic method, can we have a new section every so often, like this? (change it if you don't like it) --Akhilleus (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A catgeory such as "Chinese people" clearly implies that the person who is the subject of the article is Chinese. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, do you want the category you propose to imply that Alexander was homosexual, something that is not proven?--Yannismarou 17:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the question at hand. The question at hand is for how categories are used in general. Do you disagree that categories of the form 'Category:Foo people' are for people who self-identify as Foo or are overwhelmingly identfied as Foo? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The function of "Category:Foo people"

message: The extensive disquisition on whether or not the term is used for people who self-identify or not, or  anything else whatsoever is an unauthorized tresspass into territory we have no right to tread. It is part and parcel, unintentionally I assume, of the endless debate which has no place here and merely postpones the conclusion. It is a debate in which users have tried to disqualify sources on the basis of their presumed sexuality, palpable nonsense of course since then we would have to seek sources which were neither heterosexual nor homosexual. We are not here to do gender studies, we are here to categorize Alexander, not to praise him, or to blame him. We have to follow standard practice in the scholarship. That has been demonstrated to have placed him in the center of discussions on homosexuality in antiquity. Thus, as of right we are entitled to place him in "LGBT history." But we have been trying here for a very long time, in the face of focused abuse and deception, to accommodate users uncomfortable with the LGBT monicker. So let's leave the inappropriate and ultracrepidarian gender studies discussion aside and let's try to find an accurate wording for a category that will not be custom-fashioned to accommodate a single purpose, and let's get on with our lives. Haiduc 17:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an argument about categories, which are not only general, vaguely-defined contexts but also specific tools on Wikipedia with a specific use. (I'm glad everyone has a sense of humor, though. Socratic method? "Not to praise him, or to blame him"? Heehee.) I think the overuse of certain specific problematic example categories are doing much to muddy this discussion already-contentious subject, so I want to eliminate those problematic categories, or at least narrow the discussion to be able to discuss their specific merits or failings. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I definitely don't agree with Haiduc's analysis. And I definitely don't want to categorize Alexander somewhere he does not belong to. And this discussion is not a favor for those who are "uncomfortable". Alexander is already categorized in a series of categories. The problem here is if the proposed categories are 1) accurate, 2) necessary, 3) if they have anything to do with Alexander.--Yannismarou 17:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  We are not here to play boy-academics 

message: Just to make sure I didn't miss anything glaringly obvious that makes this all moot, has Alexander ever self-identified as homosexual or bisexual? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, not!--Yannismarou 17:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only he never self-identified as homosexual, but he indeed identified himself as a person who regards sex with young boys as immoral!--Yannismarou 18:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only did Alexander not self-identify as homosexual, the concept of "homosexuality" as an identity would have been completely alien to him.  I appreciate the work that AMIB is undertaking in leading this meandering discussion, but I hope that he will take into account the concern posed by Akhilleus and Haiduc: the search for a category that will accomodate not Alexander, the man, but Alexander, the subject of extensive scholarly research into homosexual activity in the ancient world.  We now return you to your previously scheduled Socratic dialogue. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Getting self-identifying out of the way

message: a sentence in the lead paragraph currently reads: "conquering most of the world known before his death; he is regarded as one of the greatest military strategists and tacticians who ever lived." What this means, of course, is that he conquered most of the world known to the ancient Greeks. There's been a few edits/reverts on this sentence. Is the phrasing "conquering most of the world known to the ancient Greeks before his death; he is regarded as one of the greatest military strategists and tacticians who ever lived." acceptable? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: -) If not even Ancient Greeks had an idea about the rest of the world, then we can imagine what the other Ancients thought! In any case, the addition "to the ancient Greeks", although not disagreeable, is a wordy pleonasm, because of the exact following 3 words: "before his death", which signify both timeframe (before, ie also ancient), and ethnicity (his, ie Greeks, as he was their leader, and self-identified as a Greek). The wikilinked Ptolemy world map (c.500 years later) is also illuminating in this, should anybody have further unjustified doubts. •NikoSilver• 12:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that before his death sufficiently clarifies the previous statement.  Your rephrase is much preferable, Akhilleus. siafu 15:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: To address the pleonasm, how about this: "Alexander the Great (Greek: Μέγας Ἀλέξανδρος,[1] Megas Alexandros; July 356 BC–11 June 323 BC), also known as Alexander III, king of Macedon (336–323 BC), was one of, if not the most successful military commanders in history. Before his death, he conquered most of the world known to the ancient Greeks; he is regarded as one of the greatest military strategists and tacticians who ever lived." --Akhilleus (talk) 15:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see both your point now. You mean in case before his death is not taken as descriptive of the words known world, but instead of the word capturing. In that regard, I like Akhilleus' second proposal better, as it splits the sentences in a more readable way (which is what mostly annoyed me in the first version). •NikoSilver• 15:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll make this change, but now things seem repetitive--"was one of, if not the most successful military commanders in history." and "he is regarded as one of the greatest military strategists and tacticians who ever lived." are very similar statements. I think this requires some further attention, but at the moment I can't think of a better way of phrasing. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the "known world" 

message: Wow, I leave to go back to work and there's all this. Some of the tangential discussion is jumping a couple steps ahead on me. I do want to point out that I'm going to remove personalization of this debate on sight, however; it isn't relevant if an editor is interested in Greek history, homosexuality, or people whose name begin with A, clearly everyone has the best interests of this article at heart.
So, we've established that "Category:Foo people" is only for self-identified or overwhelmingly identified as Foo, and that Alexander the Great is definitely not self-identified.
I want to ask this question in the most narrowly-construed way possible: is Alexander overwhelmingly identified by the historic community as homosexual (or bisexual; whether he had heterosexual relationships isn't relevant to this)? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, in the sense that he is not identified as having a homosexual sexual orientation. In fact, almost everyone who studies ancient Greece would say that no one in the ancient world can be called homosexual (or bisexual or heterosexual); ancient Greeks didn't use these categories, and their conception of sexuality (most historians say) was different than ours. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Okay, back again for mediation - Is Alexander ''overwhelmingly'' identified as homosexual?

message: Since there seems to be good support for this category, I went ahead and created it--a bunch of redlinks should have gone blue. Right now it's empty--it has no members, no parent categories, and no subcategories--so if changes need to be made (including a name change, or even a deletion) it should be easy. Since discussion about the category is no longer specific to Alexander, may I suggest that we continue discussion at Category talk:Ancient Greek eros? --Akhilleus (talk) 14:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Still red? Who will do the deflowering? •NikoSilver• 22:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I started doing it myself, but changed my mind, as I was an active part in this debate. As this consensus appears to be final, I suggest that the mediators Keitei and A Man In Black, make a summary of the debate and a conclusion in that page, so as to initiate further discussion on details. I was also going to post a question regarding the capitalization of Eros, but that can wait. •NikoSilver• 23:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second NikoSilver's suggestion, if Keitei and AMIB are willing to make such a summary. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me too. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me too!--Yannismarou 15:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I have done the deed — for this article, anyway.  Other articles can and should be added as appropriate. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Ancient Greek eros]] created

message: Has anyone every discussed Alexander and his place in Dante's Inferno? Though many people both ancient and modern are very awed at his accomplishments he gets placed in a pool of boiling blood and gets shot at by centaurs. Dante cites the reason because of his excess of blood letting but I don't see a reference in the actual article, just a question. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maverick62289 (talk • contribs) .
:Dante put so many people in there so it's impossible to mention them all. Also, his opinion is restricted by his time. Remember which three people he let Satan chew in his mouth? Judas, Brutus, and Cassius. We immediately know the author is a pre-renaissance Italian. It's only his partial judgement, so far from notable enough to be included here.
:mmm... I think its better to leave that out. If every refrence to Alexander the Great in the last 2350 odd years were put in this article it would be long indeed. What Dante thought of Alexander might be more relevant to an article on Dante than an article on Alexander. Thebike 21:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It belongs in the article Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great, but not in the main article. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alexander in the Inferno