Talk:Kilogram/Archive 3

message: :*P.S.: I know you didn’t place the word (far from it; you advocated its deletion), but I deleted the second (and last) instance of deprecated from Kilogram after researching its definition. All official definitions and common usages for its meaning are entirely unlike the one implied by its use here. I think the most likely reason it was used here on Wikipedia is that a single author initially used it and others simply copied the term without looking up its true meaning. It actually means “to have been belittled or diminished” or in computer or technology fields, “To be invalidated or obsoleted by removing or flagging the item.” Greg L (my talk) 22:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Improper use of the word “deprecated”

message: I've reverted the table back to its Wiki table form. That is, after all, what Wiki table syntax is for: creating tables. Whereas templates are nice tool to have (thank you for creating the template) when creating new articles or brand new tables, they can not serve every need for every article. The main disadvantage of templates is that templates can be deleted at a later date and this would delete the table, would it not? Attempts to do precisely this—delete a table-generating template—have been attempted in the recent past after certain users objected to the very existence of SI tables. Further, notwithstanding the truism about how “beauty is in the eye of the beholder,” the original table looks better than the template-generated one. Greg L (my talk) 22:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Further, I think that the table template violates the longstanding rule that "Templates should not masquerade as article content in the main article namespace" (in Wikipedia:Template namespace). —RuakhTALK 22:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: And I later noticed the connection that this particular contributor lead the prior effort to delete the SI table-generating template by nominating the SI table template for deletion. In that nomination topic, his argument started out as follows: “This template adds redundant information to articles that can be looked up in the SI prefix article.” See also Talk:Metre (where he announces his nomination) and Talk:Kelvin (where he made telling, passionate arguments as to why SI tables have no value). So he has apparently had a 180° change of heart, which I welcome. However, the template has a goof in it (heading titles are screwed up), it doesn't meet special needs of the individual articles, doesn't look as attractive, and shouldn't be used to replace existing tables. Greg L (my talk) 23:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The table template should simply be fixed to address the concernsl Greg L has with it (at least some of which on cursory examination do appear to be valid), and put back in here.  Templates exists for reasons, and keeping article code simple is a major one.  There is no reason for this table in this article to be different from what would appear in the template, which can have useful application in other articles.  Another way of putting it, instead of protecting the "sanctity" of this magical article from heathen template influences, recognize wiki tools for what they are and help build and maintain them, eh? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 19:50, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I modified the table template to address GregL's technical concerns. Yes, I still have my doubts whether this table should be this prominent and list all obscure prefixes up to 10^24, but if this table is there to stay, it had better be consistent among different articles and also not clutter up the wiki source with huge amounts of wikitable and xhtml syntax. Han-Kwang (t) 11:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All the prefixes should be here because all the formerly separate articles on this and other units with most prefixes have been changed to redirect to the article about the base unit.  For example, teragram and zeptogram redirect here. That way, if someone gets here by using a link through one of these redirects, we do have the information that explains why they are here. Gene Nygaard 04:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: SI table via template

message: I hope there isn’t going to be a fight over this; there shouldn’t be. Somewhere in all of this work in settling on syntax and formating and markup and whatever, values like 6.626 068 96 × 10–34 J s got turned into barbaric strings like 6.62606896 × 10–34 J s. Long strings of digits like this are really hard to parse. The SI delimits digits to the right of the decimal point with spaces and so too does the NIST. Where possible according to SI writing style, this is done with narrow spaces, as is disclosed (and demonstrated) in the sixth, left-justified bullet item in SI: SI writing style. Greg L (my talk) 04:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Delimiting numeric equalities

message: Hankwang: It looks like you’ve done a lot of good, hard work on your template. I am truly impressed. Ruakh: That’s the combined hits on both. To all: I've had royal battles on the picture size with someone who has a 640 × 480 screen. You have to consider appearance for a range of monitor resolutions. Most Web work assumes a minimum screen size of 800 × 600 but that won't assuage the “640 × 480 crowd.” I use a 1440-pixel-wide monitor myself and usually have my browser window set to a width of 1070 pixels. As the SI table layout was set a few minutes ago, it didn’t look good on either small or big resolutions. On 640 × 480 monitor, the text to the left was way too crowded. At 1070 pixels, the table ran off the bottom of the section and encroached into the next section. White space isn't bad. It's a well-used technique in page layout to make presentations look friendly and gives the eye a rest.  Greg L (my talk) 15:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'm happy that we seem to have resolved our disagreement now. I'm fine with the current layout, but I'm not sure whether catering for 640x480 should really be a primary concern as of 2007. Clicking some site statistics on this site (statistics icons on the right, then "This site's stats -> Technology" on the left - damn the unbookmarkable AJAX sites)  shows that 640x480 has a market share of around 0.3-0.8% (compare with 800x600: 5-15%). And it's not like the page would be unviewable on extreme monitor sizes, it's just a bit less lined up. On the other hand, mobile internet-capable devices have even smaller resolutions: 240x320 or 480x320, but most mobile web browsers will rearrange floating objects anyway. Han-Kwang (t) 16:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: SI table position

message: According to Wikipedia:Footnotes, Resizing references: “Some editors prefer references to be in a smaller font size than the text in the body of the article.” There is no “preferred” method of doing this—even for expansive lists of notes.
The above-quoted text discloses a good rational why reduced-size text sometimes makes good sense. Sometimes the “Notes”, or “References” sections are nothing but long lists of citations, such the references section for Psycho (1960 film). In citation-only References sections like this, all you get is a highlighted citation when you click on a footnote. Small text is adequate for this purpose.  In other cases, like the Kilogram article, the notes section is truly a Notes section, where points are sometimes expand on (in addition to providing citations). Especially on some computer systems with high-res monitors, reduced-size text is too small for comfort so normal-size text in situations like this is the better option.  Greg L (my talk) 19:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes-section text size

message: So far, I've been editing text in the Kilogram article for accuracy without questioning any of the information's fundamental validity. I went in search of a citable reference to support the “Electron mass” section and could find nothing. After reading what I could about electron mass, the watt balance, and how all this ties to the kilogram, I deleted the section titled “Electron mass” after concluding that there likely (it is impossible to prove a negative) has been no reputable proposal to define the kilogram in terms of electron mass. It appears that either a Wikipedia contributor misinterpreted an NIST press release regarding the watt balance, or read an amateur-level science Web page, or someone misinterpreted Towards an electronic kilogram: an improved measurement of the Planck constant and electron mass, Metrologia 42, 431–441 (a paper often cited in articles on the watt balance). One of the byproducts of fixing the Planck constant (as would occur with the watt balance) is that the uncertainty in the electron mass would be reduced by a factor of ten. If the Avogadro constant NA is fixed (as has been proposed in atom-counting approaches) then electron mass would be precisely fixed (Redefinition of the kilogram: a decision whose time has come, Metrologia 42, 71–80) . But again, this would by a byproduct of an entirely different approach to defining the kilogram. I can find no source suggesting that the kilogram should be defined in terms of electron mass. Greg L (my talk) 15:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of “Electron mass” section

message: I am concerned about revisions, both on this page and on the main page, between User:Greg L, 207.190.198.130 and User:Swatjester.  There appears to be a very strong difference of opinion between Greg L and Swatjester, but does this disagreement does not make either person's actions vandalism.  All three users have, in edit summaries, tagged edits by the other user as vandalism.  This is not okay.
Personally, I do not think using the image of the watt balance on this page is appropriate under free use restrictions, but I can easily see how this is a matter of interpretation.  How much does the image actually contribute?  Is the kilogram substantially equal to one possible future way of defining it?  My answers are "not much, because it's just a complicated looking contraption and a face seen with a fish-eye lens" and "the two are very different" but having different answers to those questions does not make a user a vandal.
Swatjester, please stop calling Greg L's copy and paste of your comments vandalism.  Greg L, and 207.190.198.130, please do not continue to add to this page posts that User:Swatjester made on User_talk:Swatjester.  Enuja  (talk) 00:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will call it what it correctly is. It is incivil, it is a violation of the GFDL's requirement that attribution histories remain intact, it is a violation of WP:MULTI, and it is disruptive. That equates to vandalism. As for the image itself, it does not meet our fair use restrictions. I am not the only one who thinks so. See WP:FUR. In fact, everyone I've discussed this with believes that the image does not qualify as fair-use on this article. To continue to reinsert it is to violate Wikipedia policies, to attempt to intentionally harm the project by potentially allowing copyright infringement, and it is fundamentally against the idea of what Wikipedia stands for. Greg L has been shown to have ownership problems before with this article. It will not stand. He's been warned about this, and if it continues, he'll be blocked for disruption. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane.  —Preceding comment was added at 00:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is incivil, it is problematic with the GFDL license, it could be a violation of multiple account policy (although an investigation that Greg L = 207.190.198.130 is necessary before being certain of this), and it disruptive.  However, I strongly believe that, with these edits, Greg L and 207.190.198.130 are trying to build a better encyclopedia.  By definition that isn't vandalism, no matter the actions.  Enuja  (talk) 01:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we'll see what checkuser has to say about the IP's and Greg L. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 02:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit wars and the watt balance image