Talk:Israel Shamir/Archive 1

message: Concerning the article on Israel Shamir: the text is a deadbeat, as there clearly is discerning views about Shamir and his allegiated anti-semitism. So is there for example on Chomsky or Avnery, although I hope no one accpets them viable anymore, at least for an encyclopedia article. I'm not saying that Shamir is a credible as the two mentioned, but the current etxt is simply ridiculous. Shamirs publications should be listed, and links to few debates of his should be added. Possibly a section about antisemitism and criticism should be added, although I do not think there is enough evidence to build on those. Safer to just give a short biography and few links outside of wikipedia.
-A.J.
I propose, whoever writes or edits this page must reveal whether he is entitled to Israeli citienship. That will make the case clear. Shamir
I am or was "entitled" to Israeli citizenship but I renounced the "honor" on my weblog.- Weixel
Before anyone attempts to delete my changes as a copyright violation, I have contacted Shamir by email and obtained his permission to use the material. Charles Godwin 13:18, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Encyclopedia article 

message: This seems to be a good place to defame a person, for there is a full-time ADL overseer who immediately reverts this page to their ugliest lies. Last revert - in two minutes flat. Indeed these guys are in total control. Conspiracy forsooth!
Shamir
:Go look at the Wiki page on me, Chip Berlet and you will find that it contains criticisms. There is no conspiracy. I was working on another article when I noticed this page had been edited. I was curious, and looked at the page, and saw that all criticism had been deleted.  I reinserted the criticism, then cut some of it as unfair, and rewrote some other points. There is no ADL overseer. Can we now add conspiracy theories to the list of criticisms?--Cberlet 13:51, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, why would you imagine that there is a "full-time ADL overseer" on this page? Jayjg (talk) 14:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: That is incorrect. Individual members of that project may be contributing here, but no mention is made on that WikiProject of the existence of this article and its obvious problems. Please do not cast silly allegations. JFW | T@lk 12:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What sort of Encyclopaedia is that? 

message: Since Israel Shamir simply speaks the truth about Zionism and Talmudic Judaism, this offends Zionists and Talmudic Jews.  The Jewish attacks against Israel Shamir are designed to help hide the ugly reality that drives modern Talmudic Judaism.
Bill Watson (unsigned comment by 24.224.233.125 16:07, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  comment by Bill Watson 

message: This is ridiculous, stop editing and reverting so we can at least discuss this amicably. Shamir is not a public figure and the entry should at least reflect this. I imprudently violated some wiki rules in my edits before I had read them. For this I apologize. But some issues need to be pointed out. I am acquinted with Shamir, and have witness incredible ad-hominem attacks against him. Clearly some of the entries here violate clearly defined rules here at Wikipedia.
The entire piece is replete with criticisms of Shamir and in the main derives from one source – Roland Rance, who writes in the  ‘Socialist Viewpoint’ Magazine  about content circulated via private email amongst primarily Jewish Socialist anti-Zionists. ‘Socialist Viewpoint’ is a political magazine produced with the purpose of presenting a particular POV. In his article, Rance makes some outlandish claims.
1.  Here is the background to my hostility towards Israel Shamir, who also writes under the names of Schmerlin, Robert David, Vassili Krasevsky and Jöran Jermas. I cannot vouch for which of these is the real Israel Shamir:  - I have search high and low since this article first appeared, and nowhere can I find any verification of this claim. The quote is simply unverifiable to date. Such outlandish claims require more than just this dubious source. If the editor wishes to retain this quote, he should be required to verify it from a reliable source. The quote should be removed.
2.   Shamir is apparently a right-wing Russian journalist, who pretends to be an Israeli Jewish leftist.  It is an innocent enough observation, but a POV nontheless. Shamir ‘pretends’ to be a leftist? He might also be pretending to be heterosexual. Roland might be pretending to be an anti-Zionist leftist. Who Knows? It is speculation and the rest of it is too. 
Roland has an axe to grind and is not an unimpeachable source, his remarks should be stricken. There are more legitimate sources for this material.
The following quote  According to Swedish authorities, Shamir lived in Sweden from 1984-1993, when he emigrated to Russia.[5] [6] is unfortumately pregnant with false impressions, and the sources themselves are of dubious value. Shamir himself is not on record denying these ‘allegations’. ‘Swedish Authorities’ are not involved at all, and it is not alleged that Shamir is in violation of any laws.  Someone, somewhere, has consulted the Swedish Census to ascertain this information. It is on the public record. Expo is a Swedish language version of the ‘Socialist Viewpoint’, part of a ring of Sister publications linked to the Socialist International. English speakers are unable to verify the quotes attributed to it.  ‘Searchlight’ Magazine is also affliated with the Socialist International. Both are magazines devoted to propagandizing particular political viewpoints that are at odds with Shamir's views. They are not reliable sources for Wikipedia.
The ‘disputed’ facts appear not to be ‘disputes’ at all. None of the details in Shamirs biography are disputed. The main bone of contention appears to be the ommission in it, of Shamir’s links to Sweden. Shamir would have some reason for neglecting to mention it, but none of the speculations of his critics suggest he did anything illegal; they just feel they were entitled to know. The brouhaha sourounding this issue is unbecoming and I suggest that we simply insert the line:
 Ommitted from Shamirs official biography is the fact that he is also a resident of Sweden, where he appears on the census since 1984. He also obtained a Swedish passport under the name Joram Jermas in 2001, indicating that he changed his name, and obtained Swedish citizenship.
That, at least, as far as I can tell, is not in dispute; and eliminates a major bone of contention. 
The quote sourced from Indymedia can thus also be removed. 
Lets settle on resolving the biography issue first. – Joh Domingo
:Let's be clear. Shamir is a public figure, he is controversial, and he apparently (at least an editor using his name) has attempted to sanitize this page repeatedly. Searchlight magazine is also controversial, but it is an appropriate source for Wikipedia when properly cited. The material from Expo was translated into English, who can't verify it? As for Shamir's claims about being an "Israeli Jewish leftist," it matters because a number of well-known Israeli Jewish leftists had never heard of him before he popped up in the United States and briefly became a minor celebrity on the political left by claiming he was a well-known "Israeli Jewish leftist" who opposed Zionism. The biographical ommissions matter.--Cberlet 14:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  stop the vandalism and flame War