Talk:Illyria

message: IP 70.69.175.56 seems to have added this fragment to the article both in Illyrian kingdom and in "In the Bible". It's not related to the Illyrian region, has typoes and throws in some strange uncited claims, so I moved it from the article to here and added back the periods in the sentences just before the additions. Those wiser on the topic can probably figure out what this is all about? Kataja (talk) 00:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Strange repeated text fragment removed

message: Quote from the article: "The Albanian transliteration i lirë translates to a free person."
Albanian "i lirë" has nothing to with the Illyrians.
"Lirë" is a term borrowed by the ancestors of the Albanians from Latin "liber"="free". ("b" between the vowels disappears on Latin words borrowed in Albanian, just like in the word "horse" lat. cabalus -> alb. kalë.)
The name of Illyria was used long before the Romans came in the Balkans. Bogdan | Talk 17:41, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  i lirë 

message: I expanded the list of tribes and I think its so long it should become its own page. Anyone against this idea? freestylefrappe 07:27, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
: Well, will we ever say much more about them than merely list them? If it's going to remain this way, it might as well stay... --Joy [shallot] 12:41, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Page for Tribes 

message: I removed a number of tribes that were not Illyrian tribes: Maedi were Thracian; Triballi were Thracian; Scordisci were too mixed up with Celtic and Thracian to be considered Illyrian; Paeonians were Paeonians, a distinct ethnicity; Liburni are by most scholars not considered to be real Illyrians; and so on. I'll check the rest later. Decius 10:45, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Illyrians 

message: I see that someone had listed the Veneti as an Illyrian tribe. Actually, the ancient Venetic language and people are considered distinct from Illyrians (though very probably the languages were related, even closely related, though the close relation of Venetic to Illyrian is very much disputed by scientists). Read this:Venetic language. Read that Venetic sentence. You can see that Venetic was so close to Latin (Italic) that some classify Venetic as an Italic language. If you want to say that the Veneti are the same as Illyri, then you are saying this: the Illyrian language has nothing at all to do with Albanian, and the Illyrian language was in fact close to Latin. You cannot have it both ways. Decius 04:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Veneti 

message: User:Freestylefrappe lifted that erroneous list of Illyrian tribes from this website: . The homepage is . This is a pseudo-historic website (a crank site) which is known to be full of untrustworthy information. Next time, instead of just assuming that all those listed are correctly listed, try checking the homepage and doing some extra research. Decius 05:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Check your source 

message: I really wish people would stop posting the ridiculous tribe list from such a propagandic source. </br>
Confirmied Illyrian tribes are the following from this source ;
(latinized)
Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, Perrhaebus, Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei,Autariatae, Dardanians, Partheni,  Dassaretii, Darsi, Autarieus, Pannonius,
Scordiscus, Triballus 
These were presented by Appian.
Tpilkati 7 July 2005 05:04 (UTC)
:Thanks Tpilkati, that is much better than a propaganda site. But even Appian's list is rightly disputed: the Triballians and Maedi are more often acknowledged to have been Thracian. Decius 7 July 2005 05:07 (UTC)
::Tribal names should be given in the plural, either in Latin (e.g. Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei, Autariatae, Partheni, Dassaretii, Darsi) or in Anglicized forms (e.g. Dardanians), but with some consistency. They are never given in the singular, so I find it truly odd that most names in Tpilkati's list are given in the masc. sing. form, e.g. Encheleus [same as Enchelei], Autarieus [repeated twice, and the same as Autariatae], Dardanus [same as Dardanians], Maedus, Taulas [same as Taulantii], Perrhaebus [same as Perrhaebi], Pannonius, Scordiscus, Triballus. Perhaps those masc. sing. names refer to the mythological eponymous ancestors of each tribe (like Romulus for the Romans). When this list was first started, it was a list of ancient tribal names, given in their modern Albanian forms. Over time, different contributors have been adding the original classical names for those tribes, but many modern Albanian forms still remain, e.g. Dalmat, Mesap, Japyg, Labeat, Taulant, etc. They should be taken out, because they are totally irrelevant and as derivative as the English ones. Since this is the English Wikipedia and not the Abanian Wikipedia, one expects to find either the English forms or, as is customary, the original classical forms, given in Latin. Perhaps Decius will find the time to clean this up.  Pasquale 00:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illyrian Tribes 

message: If we call the Thesprotians and Mollosians "Illyrian tribes", then we may have to call the Macedonians an "Illyrian tribe". Strabo in his Geography (Book 7.2) writes:
"Among the Thesprotians and Mollosians old women are called Peliai and old men Pelioi, as is also the case among the Macedonians."
---Peliai and Pelioi meant "Pigeons" in ancient Greek, and comes from pelos, 'dark' (PIE *pel-,'pale, gray, dark'). Other similarities are known between the ancient Macedonians and the tribes of ancient Northwestern Greece. It seems to me that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi and the Macedonians were perhaps kin (speaking similar languages or dialects?), perhaps forming a semi-Hellenic branch (or on the other hand, they were just "backward" Hellenes). Unless very strong evidence exists that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi were Illyrian tribes, we should remove them from the list. I removed them from the list for now. Decius 18:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Peliai and Pelioi for old women and men seems to be more related with the Albanian word plak/plakë (pl. pleq) which means old man/old woman. It is very ridiculous to call an old man or woman pigeon, even if you want to respect or offend them. --Getoar 20:06, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Read this: . The Pigeons idea is from Strabo himself, and he was not far off. The ancient Greeks named their pigeons after their dark/pale grayish color, and the Greek and Macedonian and Mollosian/Thesprotian words come from PIE *pel-, "pale, gray, dark". That Albanian word comes from the same root (PIE *pel-) yes, but any linguist will tell you that the ancient Greek form is closest to the Macedonian, not the Albanian. The Albanian form has a very close correspondance in Lithuanian however: pilkas means "gray" or "old" in Lithuanian (don't remember exactly which one). The Lithuanian word is also from *pel-. The Greek and Macedonian forms have pretty much the same form, but altered meaning or altered application. ---Decius 02:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NW Greece

message: History of the Balkans is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. If you are interested, support the article with your vote. --Fenice 20:25, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement drive

message: So who is this magnificent, antediluvian Illyrian king Hyllus, and what classical sources mention him? He's mentioned all over the net (mostly in Wikipedia mirror sites and crank sites), but it is quite mysterious that nowhere is a classical reference given for him. Perseus mentions a number of figures named Hyllus (including Hyllus), but none match the description. ---Decius 05:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyllus

message: The delineation of ancient Illyria can pose a problem to historians, since before the Roman conquest the Illyrians were not unified into an Illyrian kingdom, and Illyria's borders before Rome are not always clear. For example, the Dalmatae, though classed as an Illyrian tribe by language, were only subject to the kingdom of Illyria for a short time and soon defected during the reign of King Gentius.
Was there or was there NOT a king of Illyria? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.184.151.157 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction contradicts itself 

message: This map must ber cut from oricum/oricius and above to be correct.
"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"
"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."
Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer
Megistias (talk) 08:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Borders of illyria and greece 

message: Or this map
Megistias (talk) 15:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illyrian peoples map 

message: This university offers this map of Pre-roman conquest illyria.
 Megistias (talk) 17:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not Illyria on the map. That's an area populated with Illyrians. I's written there - "Illyrians". Illyrians didn't have such union. Illyria was much smaller and in present south Croatia, Montenegro and Albania. Zenanarh 23:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not saying its a union its just showing where they were.This is for illyria not illyricum or any of their ancient states that were fluid and changing anyway.Illyria was not only present south Croatia, Montenegro and Albania.PAnnonia and Dalmatia are included as they were illyrians thus illyria.This isnt about a part of it but all of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Megistias (talk • contribs) 23:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ilyria proper map 

message: I just wanne add a website, maybe will help you with some clarification regarding Illyrians
http://www.geocities.com/protoillyrian/index.html </br>
I also wanne mentioned that I noticed many of the Towns and People names will and up with "um" and "ae" if the source is Roman and with "os","es"or "is" if the source is Greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vini78 (talk • contribs) 07:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Website (www.geocities.com) 

message: Albanians and Illyrians = No.Slavs and Vlachs=YEs
"The Illyrians, like the Celts and Thracians, dissolved in the sea of latter conquerors, simply for the reason that during the long period of Roman rule they had lost their native culture and were unable to utilize their language to a political life of their own...We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's (Alexiad 4)."
John Wilkes, "The Illyrians", Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, 1992
John Wilkes: "The Illyrians", Oxford Press, 1996:
(1) "..A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro [around Plyevlya and Priyepolye, p.84] and western Serbia [Sanxak]". p.75
(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to moderAlbanians." p.219
(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: - Pannonians are tall and strong, always ready for a fight and to face dangerous but slow-witted." p.219
(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invadors are testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220
(5) "In sum, the destructive impact [of Bosnia-centred theory] on the earlier generalizations regarding Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40</br>Megistias (talk) 19:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanians and Illyrians = No.Slavs and Vlachs=YEs 

message: The following modern countries are on illyrian soil so they take part in the illyrian "heritage".They must be included in all Illyrian projects and since Wilkes points out that among Slavs and the Vlach population of the Areas true illyrian ancestors are found they must be posted and Quoted.This Albanian exclusiveness is arbitrary and irrelevant as most of illyria is part of other countries and other peoples have such ancestors.
ALBANIA (about half of albania) </br>
MONTENEGRO </br>
SERBIA </br>
CROATIA </br>
BOSNIA & HERSEGOVINA </br>
SLOVENIA </br>
HUNGARY</br>Megistias (talk) 15:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern countries on Illyrian soil 

message: Illyrian (Ilir in albanian) means the free in Albanian.</br>
The Illyrian king Bardyllis name means white star in Albanian.</br>
The province of Dalmatia means "land of sheep" in Albanian.</br>
The city of Ulqinj means "land of wolves" in Albanian.</br>
The Illyrian capitol Lissus (Lis) quite simply means tree in Albanian.</br>
Dardania means land of pears in Albanian</br>
The name oh the illyrian tribe Thesproti means Bringer of sacks (bags) in Albanian
In exception for a few borrowed words from Romance, Turkish and Slavic, Albanian is modern day Illyrian.
Bardhyll, Genc (Gentius in Romance) Agron, Teuta are a few examples of Illyrian names that are still and only used by Albanians.
This obvious affinity can not continue to be denied. Confirm this with an Albanian interpreter or do you wish to keep your eyes closed.
Conclusion:
If Serbs where a little bit freindlier to their Albanian neighbours they would gladly explain this long before any misconceptions could be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Durim Durimi (talk • contribs) using the IP  21:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, keep in mind that per our verifiability policy "[t]he threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." To be included in the article, the claim of a close affinity between the Illyrian & Albanian languages would need to be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Otherwise, such content would constitute original research on our part. - Best regards, Ev 00:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: So, how does the above exactly prove that Albanian is simply modern Illyrian ?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 13:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To proove anything with my keyboard and mouse is very hard but as i havesaid earlier, confirm this with an albanian interpreter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Durim Durimi (talk • contribs) using the IP  13:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Albania is has a Thracians language affinity and not an Illyrian one.,The Thracian language, An ancient language of Southern Balkans, belonging to the Satem group of Indo-European. This language is the most likely ancestor of modern Albanian (which is also a Satem language), though the evidence is scanty. 1st Millennium BC - 500 AD.Megistias (talk) 14:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linguistical similarities between Illyrian and Albanian 

message: this article is not true. the editor dont mention the albanians which are the direct discendents of illyrians. this is not an historical article but an article written for nationalistic reasons  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tolaci (talk • contribs) 06:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are a disruptor and a troll.Megistias (talk) 11:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: who pay you to do this thing, to write all this articles about the history of albania.to create lies about albanians and to ignore or cancell tha name albania in your articles. tolaci —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tolaci (talk • contribs) 04:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Yeap its sad and wrong but scholars are getting involved now,so in some way this nazi way of reasing the history of the Albanian people will smash their face with shame.We all know that wikipedia its not the place to get ur info,read the books and articles see what they say about Albania.The truth will find her way!--Taulant23 (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The albanian language has thracian affinity  An ancient language of Southern Balkans, belonging to the Satem group of Indo-European. This language is the most likely ancestor of modern Albanian (which is also a Satem language), though the evidence is scanty. 1st Millennium BC - 500 AD.The illyrian languages are larglely unknown and many of the "illyrian" tribes spoke non illyrian languages.Veneti were not illyrian indeed they were italic tribes.Epirotes-Macedons were GreekNW greeksin ancient even par few exceptions that go with insults hurled at spartans,thessalian and others that Athenians did not like.Pelasgians are on the same case Greeks,not illyrians but in ancient texts Greeks in all but very few exceptions or they may not have existed.On illyrians and albanians once if ever the language gets discovered we may find out but up to then will still wander.Albanian nationalism demands to include non illyrians as illyrians(all ancient hellenes). Megistias (talk) 11:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Stop trolling .We have posted sources.Megistias (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

text: You misquote "Plint the old??" among other things.Epirotes were GreekNW greeks.You write irrelevant stuff.We dont know the Illyrian language and MODERN historians dont link albanians to illyrian and use the connection as a conventional euphimism because of the Albanians geographic location.Stop trolling and posting irrelevant stuuf that only spam.Your language is a Thracian language and not Illyrian An ancient language of Southern Balkans, belonging to the Satem group of Indo-European. This language is the most likely ancestor of modern Albanian (which is also a Satem language), though the evidence is scanty. 1st Millennium BC - 500 AD.Megistias (talk) 20:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Primary sources on Epirus Hellenicity and Secondary sources on Epirus Hellenicity.Megistias (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  greek nationalistic propaganda agains albanians 

message: I am thinking on starting a wikiproject IllyriaI would like to know if users support this and if anyone is ready helpthank you--Cradel 19:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in.I have made many articles and referenced a great number of the already existing ones.Megistias (talk) 18:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Illyria 

message: Someone remove last edit Megistias (talk) 12:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone remove last edit 

message: How about Iliria the Albanian spelling of the topic. So many people on here discredit, the widely held view may i add, that Albanians are the modern ancestors of the Illyrians. It's a lot of bullshit to be honest.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.100.249 (talk) 23:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about ''Iliria'' the Albanian spelling of the topic. 

message: If the Slavic migrations in the Balkans is mentioned in the article, then according to that rationale, Albanians should also be mentioned? (Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So what, then it's 4 centuries instead of 5.  dab's point still stands.  And this is the article on the land inhabited by the Illyrians, not the Illyrians themselves anyway.  --Athenean (talk) 00:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

text: read facts about the iliryians and albanians here and read facts about south slavs who occupied ballkan hereLindi29 (talk) 00:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: ::Can someone tell Stavonc to stop adding things blindly? Special:Contributions/Stanovc Megistias (talk) 08:03, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stavonc 

message: Removed this , which is unsourced folk etymology at its worst.  Its placement in the Mythology section is even weirder.  This is precisely the sort of folk etymology we need to avoid in this encyclopedia.  For all we know, words that sound like "Illyria" could mean something in Urdu and Udi, but we wouldn't be including them here, would we?  Athenean (talk) 18:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folk etymology 

message: After an Afd, it was decided by consensus that the article named Illyrian history be merged. The obvious target articles for the merger are this one, and Illyria. I have already begun implementing the merger. Some sections of Illyrian history were cut-and-paste from this article, so I simply removed them from Illyrian history. That was a no-brainer. However, the remainder of the merger is non-trivial. Much of the Illyrian history article is unsourced. Is there a point in merging massive amounts of unsourced text? We must be careful not to duplicate info, but also not to lose info that is sourced but not already in this article. Athenean (talk) 00:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, at a first glance I agree with you guys, but there is new information in the current article different from Illyria. There is no information (when sources correctly) what should be deleted (am I right?). So, until we agree on what to delete and what to keep we should not make any hasty move. Also, we have to see whether this article deserves to be kept, it is different from Illyria as it is focused only o the history of the people, while the first is focused on the territory. —Anna Comnena (talk) 20:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Alex, I read the AfD comments. The article has been agreed to be merged with Illyria. I was a bit bothered by both your and Atheneans insisting on "redirection seems the only way". Why would you still insist on something that was disregarded just a few days ago by many neutral editors? —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article will not be kept but merged with Illyria per afd. This discussion is to make specific suggestions on what should be moved from Illyrian history to Illyria. Since the article 'Illyrian history' appears completely or and fringe I can hardly find something worthy.Alexikoua (talk) 18:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Aha! That is another way of saying I don't care what AfD concluded. Just because YOU DON'T LIKE the article doesn't mean anything. I will come up with some suggestions briefly. —Anna Comnena (talk) 10:13, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger with Illyrian history 

message: What is this map on this article? Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia of self-made maps, which are constructed according to someone's view and opinion? Why the map I brought is not valid, and deleted by user Athenean, and the self-made map is valid? (Edvin (talk) 09:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Who made that map of Illyrians?

message: This map is full of mistakes. I'll mention some:
1 Dassareti are located by historians in Albania, between Vjosa river and Prespa lakes (roughly Korça basin). In the current map they are placed some 300 km in north, somewhere in Kosovo near Mitrovica.
2 Labeates are located by historians around Shkodër Lake in Albania and Montenegro (even Shkoder lake was called Labeatis lake in Ancient times). In the current map they are placed some 200km away in Kosovo around Gjakova.
3 Amantes are located by historians in Albania, Vlorë district, south of Vjosa river in Plloçe village (15 km east of Vorë city). In the current map they are placed some 200km away around Lake Ohrid. 
4 Bylliones are located by historians in Albania, in Klos region close to Vjosa river. In the current map it is placed much norther around Shkumbin river
Could be more mistakes. I've just mentioned some. The map should be corrected or replaced with a new one. Aigest (talk) 09:34, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: actually the map is a kaleidoscope of tribes which existed in wholly different times periods. So irrespective of whether the locations are correct, it is chronologically non-sensensical. Eg tribes which existed in the 4th century BC and then disappeared (eg Autariatae) are mentioned with tribes which first appear  after Roman conquest Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific on that (i.e. name the tribes).Alexikoua (talk) 10:12, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been superseded by 2 SVG translatable files and a simple png. Two are rather simple.with tribe names, approximate extent
regions  — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaryroseB54 (talk • contribs) 13:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map issue (many mistakes) 

message: What is the scope of the article? Does it only discuss pre-Roman Illyria or all phases of Illyria up to late antiquity Illyricum?  --Maleschreiber (talk) 23:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope 

message: I noticed something curious about a new article at Talk:Illyrian kingdom. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illyrian kingdom 

message: the Labeatae should be placed on today's Albania-Montenegro border. Where currently are the Labeatae should be placed the Pirustae. The Dassareti should be added to the map. The Amantes (tribe) and Atintanians also should be added but with a different colour due to being disputed as either Illyrian or Greek. The Pannonian tribes are not placed well in northern Serbia and southern Hungary - though I can't provide a better picture at the moment. In any case, a much better map is needed, hopefully someone will make one some day. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:24, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have sources for the location of the Labeatae and the Pirustae? Regarding the Amantes and Atintanians, since they are disputed, I think it is best to avoid them. For the Atintanians in particular, their location is unknown, so there is no way to include them. If I included them in a map of Epirus, you would probably remove the map on those grounds. Khirurg (talk) 02:49, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The non-inclusion of the Amantes and Atintanians in the map is a serious issue as it implies that they were certainly Greeks. In all maps, be of Illyria or Epirus, they should be included with a different color from both Illyrians and Greeks. The location of the Atintanians being unknown is not an issue, because many of the tribes in the map have their precise location unknown: the placements in the map are mostly locations in the general area where the tribes are thought to have been. I will soon post RS for the Labeatae and Pirustae. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:07, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, again, do not forget the Dassareti. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:09, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: How can the location of a tribe whose location is not known be added to a map? That is an unreasonable demand. Not showing a tribe on the map does not imply they are "Greek" in any way. If the Dardani were not shown on the map, would that imply they were Greeks? Of course not. Khirurg (talk) 15:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map issues