Talk:Plautdietsch

message: I put the example of Homer Groening in but perhaps it should go, i'll put it in for now. :)
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P. Stoltzfus
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I am not sure that it should be included either, but I think it is important to mention the stigmatisation of Mexican born Old Colony Mennonites in places like Ontario. I grew up in the midst of it and it was quite severe. I have seen classmates who were Mennonites of Mexican origin deny their culture and language. These are the same forces which helped cause the death of Pennsylvania German in the non-Anabaptist communities of Southeastern Pennsylvania and Gaelic in Cape Breton. 
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P. Stoltzfus
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Is Plautdietsch different from the language used for the Plattdüütsch wikipedia. Is it different from Pennsylvania German language (which claims to be a mennonite language), Hutterite German, Texas German? Thanks. Secretlondon 13:13, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
*As far as I know, Plattdeutsch is a colloquial term used for both low and middle german dialects. My grandparents in Lower Saxony, Germany spoke both "Plattdeutsch" (Low Saxon) and "High German". Plattdeutsch is going to die off. 82.82.117.83 13:24, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: This is late in the game but for the sake of other researchers who stumble by this, Plautdietsch is not closely related to Pennsylvania German (aka Pennsylvania Dutch). That language comes (mostly) out of the Palatinate and is a type of High German. It was indeed the language of Anabaptists but even more so of the "Fancy Dutch" who were mostly Lutherans, Moravians, and the like from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland (and mostly not from what is now the Netherlands). The Pennsylvania German speaking Anabaptists tended to be refugees from places like Switzerland who had initially fled to the Palatinate before winding up in Pennsylvania (PA). Dave  (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 19:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Example

message: The article claims that Plautdietsch is influenced by the Dutch language. I would like to see some kind of source for this claim, as Plautdietsch is an 'East' Low German dialect and Dutch lies on the opposite (i.e. western) end of the Dutch/German dialect continuum. Dutch and East Low German lie hundreds of miles apart. Unoffensive text or character 15:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here you are: *De Smet, Gilbert 1983: 'Niederländische Einflüsse im Niederdeutschen', in: Gerhard Cordes and Dieter Möhn (eds.), Handbuch zur niederdeutschen Sprach- und Literaturwissenschaft, Berlin: Erich Schmidt Verlag, , pp. 730 - 761. Ad43 00:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch influence?? 

message: I have contributed extensively to this article in the last few weeks. I am an average native speaker of Plautdietsch but unlike the most of them, have studied and researched a lot about it, and I though it could be a good idea to share some of my findings with people who might care about this special language.
Lately I have discovered that I have a few "correcters". While I do not claim to have absolute or definite knowledge on the matter, I would appreciate contributions if they are true. Someone lately corrected the article and noun section claiming that there are three different articles in the Singular Nominative and in the Plural as well!!! No Germanic language has three plural definite articles, not even High German which is known as being one of the most complicated languages on the world.
 
Plautmex 21:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three plural articles? 

message: While a more thorough discussion of diachronic Plautdietsch phonology would certainly be a welcome addition to this article, I am a little puzzled by the discussion of "vowel lowering" in the present revision, which appears to assume High German as its benchmark.  If the goal here is a cross-linguistic comparison of these two vowel systems, then this would seem more than alright.  If, on the other hand, this section is suggesting that the present Plautdietsch vowel system has developed from that of High German, then one would seem to run into the problem that Plautdietsch is not descended from High German, nor would Plautdietsch vowels have necessarily "lowered" from any such historical state.
This isn't to say that vowel lowering hasn't occurred in the history Plautdietsch, or even in these particular contexts -- it is insisting, however, that High German shouldn't be taken to be the historical source of present-day Plautdietsch vowels, since no such genetic relationship is generally assumed to exist.  A number of authors discuss historical developments in Plautdietsch phonology with reference to Old Saxon and Middle Low German: cf. the work of Jacob Quiring (1928), J. W. Goerzen (1952/1972), and most recently Larissa Naiditch (2005).
Ccox 18:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Vowel Lowering" 

message: There is an orphan stub called Mundart des Weichselmündungsgebietes. Would it be appropriate to redirect it here? Or does it refer to a historically distinct dialect? — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 14:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  OK to redirect 

message: Would it not be better for the title of this Wikipedia entry to be "Mennonite Low German", and have "Plautdietsch" redirect to it? "Plautdietsch" simply means Low German, in the Mennonite Low German dialect. It would not be surprising to find that there are other Low German dialects, in which "Low German" is called something similar to "Plautdietsch".  I have been working on the entry for Pennsylvania German, and there have been some that have wanted to regularly refer to the language as "Deitsch" in English. In this case, there certainly are other German dialects in which the word for "German" is "Deitsch", or something similar. I believe the practice of referring in English to a language or dialect by its native name, at least in these cases, adds unnecessary confusion. JMCooper (talk) 20:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mennonite Low German 

message: First, I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this article. The subject is fascinating.
Second, I've noticed a small problem in the third paragraph. The final sentence reads:
Many Mennonites migrated to North America — especially Canada and the United States — and Latin America — especially south Brazil, Paraguay and Mexico; most of them live as rural settlers and added some Spanish and Portuguese words to their own language.
''
This sentence implies that Mennonites in Canada and the US have added some Spanish and Portuguese words to their language, which is hard to believe, especially of Portuguese, which does not have much influence in the northern parts of the US or in Canada. Maybe we should add English to the list of influencing languages, or break up the sentence into two pieces? Unless there really are a lot of Portuguese loan words in Canadian Plautdietsch dialects...
Also, in the discussion someone asked about Pennsylvania Dutch (which linguists call Pennsylvania German). This dialect is based on Palatine German (Pfälzisch/Pälzisch or Pfaelzisch/Paelzisch). There is a good Wikepedia article on Pennsylvania Dutch, which has a fascinating history of its own and which developed from a blend of "mountain" dialects from Germany and Switzerland (and  to a lesser extent Austria). Note that although it's called Pennsylvania Dutch in English (and this is what native PD speakers prefer to call it so I use that term), it is a dialect of Upper German not Lower German and consequently its level of mutual comprehensibility with Lower German dialects such as Plautdietsch would be low. In Pennsylvania, by the way, Mennonites tend to speak Pennsylvania Dutch or English, and not Plattdietsch. This is due to the long association with PD speakers, which at one time were about a third of Pennsylvania's population if I remember correctly, and also due to the fact that the original Mennonite settlers in Pennsylvania did not have the same Russian roots but tended to come from the Palatinate. I live in Pennsylvania, and the Amish and Mennonites here speak the same language but go to different churches. The two groups tend to co-exist peacefully, and both have become integrated into the fabric of Pennsylvania's culture while trying to remain "plain".
Another person asked about the relationship of Plautdietsch to Dutch (now called Netherlander or Neiderlander). By looking at a map you can see that the area where Plattdeutsch is spoken is quite close to the Netherlands and to Belgium (and I use the alternate spelling Plattdeutsch because I am talking about a family of Lower German dialects here and not just the Mennonite Lower German dialect). Therefore, you would (correctly) expect the languages to be much closer to Neiderlander (what we traditionally call "Dutch" in English). These languages grew up next to each other and would therefore have a history of influencing each other, besides being closely related from the start. The wikipedia page on German dialects traces this lineage nicely. I would further recommend reading up on Old and Middle Dutch and Old Saxon because those languages spawned most of the Lower German dialects. And I also recommend reading up on dialect continuums and sprachbunds, because the whole business of language classification is a messy one. 
I think the best idea is to just lump all the Lower German dialects together along with the other German dialects, and Scandanavian, English, and Scottish, plus the Germanic languages I've missed, and just call them one language named "Modern Teutonic" or something. It saves a lot of work and from the perspective of a linguist in the far-distant future may be perfectly accurate. (I'm half kidding so turn down the flames to half strength please!)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djkernen (talk • contribs) 16:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence implies that those in Latin America have. In Canada and the US, English has been added. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Couple of Things 

message: There has been ongoing discussion about the status of Plautdietsch (or Mennonite Low German) as a dialect or language. I have reverted a recent edit to the Plautdietsch page to preserve this discussion rather than let it be changed to a dialect only. I think there is value in showing the pros and cons of these arguments. I am sure that some people feel very strongly about one position or another, but this article will be stronger if we preserve these differences rather than edit them out.Lorkoe (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dialect vs. language 

message: There is a lot of interesting information in the article, but I find that one vital question is left vague: The Mennonites of the Lower Vistula spoke a particular form of German; how, in outline, was this Mennonite form of German different from the form of German spoken by Non-Mennonites in the same region? Were the two forms much the same, except that the Mennonite form had a few vocab items of its own? Or were they much more different than that? I think the article should deal with this point pretty clearly at an early stage, because it affects the reader’s grasp of much of the more detailed stuff.Llezsoeg (talk) 08:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly is. But the Annabaptist groups who formed it were from what is currently the Netherlands, and the language was also informed by the languages spoken in delta area of Royal Prussia. All of that is entirely off-topic as Friesland is not even mentioned in this article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to Non-Mennonite German 

message: @User:Walter Görlitz and others, why in External links should't be the link to audio Bible in Plautdietsch (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=56)? I think it is allways useful to have here the demonstrations of the speech - and if you consider that the first EL (http://plautcast.com/?reqp=1&reqr=) doesn't work, my link (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plautdietsch_language&diff=591970416&oldid=591360717) to the Bible would be the only working link to an audio demonstration of this rare language (but even if it would't be the only one, I would be for to have it here...). What do you think about it? --Jiří Janíček (talk) 15:03, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote, "not appropriate as an EL. They are to be educational links, not simply sources." I should have linked to :WP:EL, specifically :WP:ELYES. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:18, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why have you deleted the Bible audios? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm not sure if "low German" keeps getting reverted because the term "literally" is being use (such as here), or because it's unsourced. 
# http://www.mennolink.org/doc/lg/index.html
# https://www.ethnologue.com/language/pdt
# https://www.memrise.com/course/233536/plautdietsch-mennonite-low-german/
# https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Dialect_Literature_and_Speech,_Low_German
Only Gameo here is a reliable source. None of the sources use "literally". However, the language is translated as "low German" as can be seen. "Literally" has been removed since it's clear it's a variety of low German. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plautdietsch 

message: English th = other Germanic languages d -> this is not correct, since Icelandic still has the fricative (actually, as in English both the voiced an unvoiced [θ] and [ð]... Wathiik (talk) 17:38, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: How would you prefer it to be worded? Would "most" be acceptable? I suspect "Germanic languages that use the Latin alphabet" would be too long. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:44, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  th 

message: https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/plau1238 is the code for Plautdietsch. It has three parts in this site.   
https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/amtr1234 Am Trakt-Alexandertal Alexandertal Mennonite Settlement https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Am_Trakt_Mennonite_Settlement_(Samara_Oblast,_Russia) says they arrived directly from Prussia, founding the colony in the 1850s. 
https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Alexandertal_Mennonite_Settlement_(Samara_Oblast,_Russia) says there were Mennonites of West Prussia, who stemmed from the Grosse Werder district east of Danzig, and from the Graudenz lowlands farther up the Vistula River.
https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/nehr1234 Nehrung
https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/werd1234 Werder Sarcelles (talk) 12:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subdivision of Plautdietsch 

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As you read the Bible, test it by asking the following questions:
1
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2. What does it mean?
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who is God. 2607:FB91:1A13:9062:3D6B:9DEA:B31B:B598 (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Study 

message: Once inside this article ():
* Migration history: "They took with them their Dutch, West Frisian and Dutch Low Saxon dialects, which over time they mixed with East Low German dialects: Werdersch, Nehrungisch and Vistulan. As Mennonites they kept their own (primarily Dutch and Low-German) identity, using Standard Dutch well into the 18th century. At the time of their migration to the Russian Empire, their spoken language resembled the dialects of the region with only some few Dutch elements."
* Influences and borrowings > Dutch: "The Mennonites for a long time maintained their old language. In Danzig, Dutch as the language of the church disappeared about 1800. As a spoken language, the Mennonites took up the Vistula Low German, the vocabulary of which they themselves had already influenced. [...] It was this Vistula Low German or Weichselplatt that the Mennonites took with them and kept while migrating to Russia, Canada and elsewhere."
First three varities/dialects are mentioned, and then it's only one, which is contradicting.
Christopher Douglas Cox, Quantitative perspectives on variation in Mennonite Plautdietsch 2015, p. 27f. () mentions the three Mennonite settlement areas, where they picked up the local dialects as spoken language.
BTW, as for the underlined part, Cox p. 26 states: "Mennonites entering the Vistula delta as refugees from northwestern Europe in the sixteenth century were neither ethnically nor linguistically uniform. [..] Mennonites of this group consisted not only of Frisians and Saxons from East Friesland and surrounding areas, but also contained a substantial contingent of refugees from Flanders, as well as a smaller but still significant number of central Europeans."
--20:21, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mennonites in Prussia