Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 8

message: I also contend that this page needs to be archived. 
I just don't know how to do it. 
If there is anyone that could help, it would be appreciated by all to release us of some of the clutter...
Rivka 19:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: don't have time now, you can read Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.  leave the last 10 or so sections.   Jon513 20:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving Talk Page 

message: I had to go away for a few months.  I'm glad that the counter-missionaries no longer own the page.  Thanks a lot to the editors who have brought this page into a more NPOV state.  Having said this, there are some issues that might need to be addressed.
The first thing I note is that [Hebrew Christianity] has been redirected here.  This makes about as much sense to me as redirecting Ireland to North Ireland.  I'm not sure why, but the history section has been dramatically cut down, and in doing so has essentially eliminated the historic developments in the separation of Messianic Judaism from Hebrew Christianity.
I'm not certain if there is a relationship to these changes or not, but the overall tone of the article is now very Christian.  There were some real howlers, which I've corrected.  (A bimah is never referred to as a pulpit, and most of Judaism considers writing out any version of the tetragrammaton in this context to be near blasphemy.)  These kind of slipups are not to be taken lightly.  We do the antimissionaries' work for them if we come of as a bunch of Christians playing at Judaism.
The section on theology, is extremely Christian in its form and tone, especially the subsections on doctrines.  The very term escatology is a Christian term, and its is presented as if there has been some great conference to decide them matter.  I pretty much agree with what is presented, but I strenuously object to its being presented as definitive Messianic theology.
The section on holidays is weird at best.  Why not state, "As a self-identified branch of Judaism, Messianic Judaism observes traditional Jewish Holidays, while some individuals continue to celebrate Christmas and/or Easter for various reasons, including family harmony."?
The entry on kashrut is self-contradictory.
NathanZook 01:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Much good, some not so good here... 

message: The section on Christian views of MJ needs serious revision.  As it stands, it is eaisly a MJ POV critique of Christianity rather than a NPOV discussion of how Christians view Messianic Judaism, both positive and negative.
:To anon - I see what the issue is and agree that it is POV. (It's really one sentence that makes it that way)
:I plan to change it as soon as I get a moment; however, please feel free to change it yourself, if you would like to.
:Also, if you choose to update/edit the article, we would appreciate it if you logged in, or created a screen name. 
:This would also be handy in confering here in the Talk Section.
Rivka 21:30, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To anon and everyone else -- I have removed sentence that was POV. Rivka 22:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, to be completely honest, the link to Antinomianism is iteself POV.  Certainly, it reflects our view of Christianity and not the reverse.
NathanZook 04:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Nathan – I didn’t bother to check that link (because I don’t even know what that word means lol). Rivka 15:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Views of Messianic Judaism 

message: I was wondering if we as an editing team could review for NPOV purposes, the list I posted in the subsections Essential Doctrines and Non Essential Doctrines in regards to the beliefs held by the vast majority of those who consider themselves Messianic. There are a lot of beliefs in Messianic Judaism, and the beliefs vary from congregation to congregation, even in the same city, even on the same block. However, I believe it is necessary to the encyclopedic nature of the article to list what the vast majority of Messianics do believe, and also list all other beliefs that the vast majority do not agree on. That was the purpose for the Essential (to salvation/being a Messianic) Doctrines and the Non Essential (to salvation/being a Messianic) Doctrines subsections I created. I felt it was necessary to create them, using a list from several sources (my and other congregations, Messianic Manifesto, and even older versions of this article and their sources). I feel that it would be in the public's best interests for us to work on this list. Perhaps a change in the name of the sections to "Popular Beliefs" and "Not So Popular Beliefs", or "Agreeables" and "Non Agreeables", or "Messianic Essential Beliefs" and "Messianic Non Essential Beliefs" etc. I hope I'm making sense as to my desire for something to this effect. Perhaps if we can come up with subsection headings and agree on the titles, that the content within those subsections will be easy to formulate, based on various sources. So far, I do like "Essential Doctrines" and "Non Essential Doctrines" (KISS principle) and then an explanation within the subsection and what it covers: the beliefs that a majority of Messianics adhere to, and the beliefs that are not as agreeable to the majority. I am also open to the idea that we don't fuss with what is held by the majority of minority in regards to these doctrines, in favor of just a subsection simply titled "Doctrines" with a whole list there (if the doctrine doesn't have a subsection elsewhere in the article, or have its own article, then it would get listed in "Doctrines" if there was a verifiable source for the belief).inigmatus 22:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that what you list as essential and non essential beliefs, represents not Messianic Judaism as a whole, but only the majority American-assimilated branch of Messianic Judaism (This would be like saying that Judaism doesn't believe in a literal Messiah, just because the majority of liberal Reform synagogues in America don't.) For example you list the pagen-christian  trinity doctrine in the essentials; whereas Torah observant Messianic Jews reject such a notion.  And conversly You list Torah observance and non-essential; but that same segment would claim that torah observance is a at the core of the jewish identity and the teachings of Yeshua, and anyone saying otherwiise would be "least in the kingdom" 12.218.150.29 19:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theology: Essential Doctinres and Non Essential Doctrines 

message: I know the article List of Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians already exists, and I don't like to see the duplication of effort. Having said that, after reading and editing the article I can't help but come away with the feeling that this article could use a section specific persons (preferably historical as well as modern persons) who where ethnically Jews, but belived in Yeshua (Jesus): such persons could justifibly be included (regardless of the actual lable they bore in their day). I'm sure His own talmudim (disciples) would make the list, as well as Saul (Paul); some people from the Hashalah (Jewish Enlightenment) period in Europe; and modern-era followers. Between Biblical periods and the Haskalah I'm drawing a (rather lengthy) blank. Dose anyone else here think that a concise, but well rounded section covering notable adherents of Messianic Judaism (and linking to the list for more complete treatment) would be good for the article? Any ideas where the section would start and end? And for my own personal curiosity sake: can anyone think of a Jewish followers of Jesus from the Middle Ages? —Wikijeff
---
At this time, I would much prefer that the matter not be raised, as there is almost no way to create such a list without appearing to be Christian triumphalists.  
I know, I know.  It's normally minorities that try to point out "See all these names you know that are like us".  
But a Jew who converts to Christianity is 1) going from a small religion to a large one and 2) doing something I don't want.
A list of major Jews who accept Yeshua as the messiah and continue to worship the God of their fathers as did their fathers--now that is a list that I might like to see linked.
Starting with Yacob ha Tzadik (ie: James the Just), of course, followed by Paul/Shaul "I have not walked in a disorderly fashion." of Tarsus, and the Shaliach John, who taught his Greek disciple (Polycarp?) to celebrate Pesach.
NathanZook 03:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Adherents of Messianic Judaism 

message: The sections (4.1) Law vs. Grace and (4.2) Law and Grace are both one-liners. It seems to me they could be merged into a single section "Competing views of the Torah", (or whatever) with transitional text between the various view-points. I think that, with some additional content, would improve the flow of the article in that section. On a similar note, are their not adherents to Messianic Judaism who (a) do not observe Torah, but (b) do not hold the Torah in conflict with God's mercy and grace toward men? Or, perhaps I've misunderstood some Messianic litrature from the non-Torah observant camp? —Wikijeff 04:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Law, Grace, and the flow of this Article 

message: I've only spent about an hour looking into this, after bumping into a reference to 'Jews for Jesus'. It seems very simple to me. I would define it as 'Messianic Judaism' as an approach to converting Jews to Christianity by offering them an alternative religion that is at it's core Christian but keeps some trappings of Judaism. A relatively small number of converted Messianic Jews are supported by a much larger number of evangelical Christians seeking to convert Jews. Critics accuse the movement of hypocricy, their main arguments being that that the majority of people supporting the movement identify themselves as Christians, that it is funded by and closely shares most of its membership with Christian organisations who's stated goal is to convert Jews to Christianity, and that Messianic Jewish organisations mislead prospective converts by concealing these connections.
Anyway, good luck to you all in trying to find an NPOV solution to what seems to me, in my humble opinion, an attempt by very ferverent Christians to be dishonest to save souls. If you can fix that, maybe you can take a stab at the 'terrorist versus freedom fighter', 'torture versus fighting terrorism' and 'pro-life versus pro-choice'. :) 
12:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd appreciate more information "I've only spent about an hour looking into this". And, be fair, I never said "secret Christian spy", so I don't think that should be be presented as a quote. In more detail: 1) the messianic Jewish sites I looked at were concerned with converting jews 2) I tracked them down through some what website links to what and who is a member of what and what I found was funding from Christian organizations support from Christians and evangelical organizations who state they want to convert Jews 3) i found plenty of criticism that i paraphrased above, it seemed supported 4) i took a look at the claims of persecution and 100,000's membership and both seemed dishonest. 5) my personal opinion, a more accurate name would be Christians for the Old Testament. Jesus is the crux of your belief, but you downplay him in your public face. From what I read, the claim that you are being dishonest to convert mainstream Jews has merit. But that wasn't my point, I just don't think this can be made NPOV. TRWBW 18:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry my friend, I did not mean to be so angry.  Because you are right in the point of fact that it would "APPEAR" in some elements of our faith that what you described is the case.  Because there is various POVs and opinions among our Messianic faith as well (which the article does seem to cover rather well and SHOULD cover)...  I think in order to keep it NPOV you would need to cover as many POVs in the Messianic faith as possible.  I'm sorry that our faith was misrepresented to you, and I can understand your confusion now.  Yes, I agree it is hard to make NPOV, but with a good coverage of as many angles as possible NPOV can be maintained (I think). For instance, I do not agree by opinion with One House/Jew Only theology, HOWEVER, it exists and SHOULD be included in this article, because I know Messianics who DO believe that.  I would be upset if they WEREN'T added to the article. -FX 65.204.232.77 04:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hard article to make NPOV 

message: I don't know if it's been discussed in the talk archives, but surely 'Messianic Judaism' encompasses more than just Jews who believe in Jesus? Maybe I'm widely off the mark, but I think that the term 'MJ' includes all branches of Judaism who feel that the messiah has already come, including the followers of Sabbatai Zevi, David Reubeni and Jacob Joseph Frank (only one of whom, Frank, believed in Jesus). Ayin/Yud 08:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other forms of Messianic Judaism 

message: I noticed on the main page it says the factual accuracy is debated.  What's debated!?  I've read a lot of this talk page...and it's as if the WHOLE IDEA is debated!  I'm finding this talk page to be a confusing mish-mash of theological whatchamacallit and noise that really doesn't have much to do with ANYTHING that is Messianic Judaism.  If you guys REALLY wanna know what Messianic Judaism, then please please please, go read/listen to Eddie Chumney, Joel Chernoff, Monte Judah, Ralph Messer, Bill Cloud, Brad Scott and a whole slew of others I'm not gonna mention of the top of my head.  Many of them have books, cds, pamphlets etc. that could EASILY be referenced so that people quit questioning this whole thing.  Also, while I'm at it, I think the numbers that were mentioned in the first paragraph (47,000) are low...REALLY low.  Ralph Messer has over 20,000 on his mailing list, want to ask him:  www.simchattorah.tv.  Monte Judah has some 50,000 plus on his mailing list now, ask him: www.lionlamb.net.  Seriously folks, quit arguing your stupid theology on this ALLEGEDLY factual site and do just that STICK TO THE FACTS.  You may disagree with the belief, but it's still a FACT and that's what wikipedia is about!!  So go do some research, shut up, edit, and live free! -FX 65.204.232.77 12:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Factual Accuracy Debated?

message: I took another crack at trying to understand this. It seems a big issue that isn't fully developed in the article are the evangelical aspect of many (most?) Messianic Judaic organisations. This seems to be the biggest source of friction between Messianic Jews and Mainstream Jews. It appears at a few points in the article, but it maybe it should be given a section by itself? TRWBW 00:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  should evangelism/conversion/mission get its own section?