Talk:Hirohito surrender broadcast

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure)  BegbertBiggs (talk) 10:30, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Jewel Voice Broadcast →  – The translation of "Gyokuon-hōsō" as "Jewel Voice Broadcast" is a literal translation of the Japanese that misunderstands the function of the "gyoku." In this context, honorific "gyoku" refers to the emperor. See https://www.weblio.jp/content/%E7%8E%89, in particular, the definition "③天子に関係ある事物につける美称。 「玉音・玉顔・玉座・玉璽・玉体」。" Alan Thwaits (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

text: , What is the name used in reliable English-language sources? According to guidelines (WP:Article titles) this is key. (t · c) buidhe 09:02, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , There are two reliable sources given in the references: (1) "The coup against the Emperor's broadcast that never was" (Kyodo, Japan Times) refers to the recording as the "Emperor's broadcast." (2) "Text of Hirohito's Radio Rescript" (New York Times, p. 3, 15 August 1945) refers to the recording as "Hirohito's Radio Rescript." Just about everywhere else, one finds "Jewel Voice Broadcast." If the title is determined by popular usage, I guess we have to live with the incorrect translation. I would favor "the Emperor's broadcast," as it conforms to Japanese etiquette prohibiting mention of the emperor's name. User:Alanthwaits 15 September 2020
*Relisting note: relisting to allow further input, particularly bilingual.  SITH (talk) 13:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 13 September 2020 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: page moved to alternate suggestion  Andrewa (talk) 02:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Jewel Voice Broadcast →  – Per previous nomination by User:Alanthwaits in 2020. Not only is the translation incorrect, which would be fine if it really was the most common term, but it also appears to be Wikipedia neologism that now unfortunately appears in some reliable sources through WP:CITOGENESIS. This refers to a much-discussed broadcast that happened in 1945 - that there's not a single reference to it as the "jewel voice broadcast" in a single 20th century Google Books search is illuminating. (I tried the search ["Jewel Voice" Hirohito] and there's nothing). Notice also the Google Ngrams for "Jewel Voice" - no data to plot . There doesn't seem to be a particular name used in English for this so I believe a descriptive title is appropriate. Personally I'm not fussed about the exact wording, but I saw "surrender broadcast" used in plenty of hits on Google Books. I think "Gyokuon Radio Broadcast" would be acceptable too. NEOGEO6 (talk) 04:16, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 4 September 2021 

message: I just wanna point out that the German, French, Italian, Dutch and Portugese articles all use the original "Gyokuon-hōsō" as the article title, instead of a rather arbitrary translation thats not really based on anything. jonas (talk) 13:35, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Why not just use Gyokuon-hōsō, which is the name used consistently in numerous scholarly sources (and which predates the Wikipedia neologism Jewel Voice Broadcast), instead of an arbitrary "descriptive" title that is virtually never used outside of Wikipedia? Vissel0126 (talk) 02:50, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  article title 

message: Alright, shortest explanation I can offer as of now:
As you can see above on this discussion page, the article was recently moved to a name that does not include any reference to gemstones or jewels. Given that the article title was changed to fix what users deemed to be a translation error, I see no reason as to why the same logic should not be applied to its content. Furthermore, an attempt to introduce the "jewel" mistranslation in the lede was already rejected once. That edit also was one where the erroneous nature of the translation was addressed, unlike in the two edits by User:Kylewong3310, in which the original was replaced without any commentary or explanation.
I also want to point out that at least Arthur Rose-Inness' Beginners' Dictionary of Chinese-Japanese Characters does not include "jade" as a translation of the term in question, only jewels in general, though of course it could be that some other sources do have "jade" as a meaning as well. However, I also believe that the translation should be based on the most obvious meaning, and between "emperor's voice" and "jade(/other gemstone) voice" the first one is vastly more intuitive; gemstones do not talk, emperors do. --85.76.144.177 (talk) 17:46, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, very well, my apologies. Thanks for the engaging and the explain, carry on. Sorry about making you do the extra work. Herostratus (talk) 21:57, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. I also want to commend you on your ability to talk this through. --85.76.144.74 (talk) 17:26, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation in the lede 

message: I see there's been some discussion about this post-move, as well as changes that were reverted, so starting a discussion. I think the article needs to mention that this is sometimes referred to as the "Jewel Voice Broadcast". Reliable sources use the term widely (e.g. , , many more in both above move discussions). Jewel Voice Broadcast continues to redirect here. It seems likely to be the case that this term came from a neologism coined on Wikipedia, but that doesn't change that the term now exists and is in use; it's no different from a common misnomer or neologism coined anywhere else. It's essential information for a reader that is either looking up "Jewel Voice Broadcast" or reading some of the sources on this very page that the two terms are synonymous. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 21:24, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll also address the statement in  that . I have no problem noting that the phrase "Jewel Voice Broadcast" originated with a mistranslation on Wikipedia if reliable sources exist stating that. I'm not sure there is a reliable source stating that though—I couldn't find one. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 21:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

text: The article does not and must not mention "Jewel Voice" based on on WP:CIRC, which is policy. "Do not use articles from Wikipedia (whether English Wikipedia or Wikipedias in other languages) as sources, since Wikipedia is a user-generated source. Also, do not use websites mirroring Wikipedia content or publications relying on material from Wikipedia as sources." It was decided by vote in 2021 to remove the Jewel Voice mention. I don't think there's any need for further discussion.2001:CE8:147:183A:18F6:39BC:CC70:CD38 (talk) 02:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewel Voice Broadcast in Article