Talk:Dutch name

message: Please do not reinstate the image which contains only a text table. It forces a font upon the user, and even data that isn't going to change very much should be editable for layout and similar matters. Rex, you are acting unwiki-like. Please stop that. – gpvos (talk)
::I merely reinstated the image once, with the summary "esthetics do matter.Also, this information is unlikely to change in the next 50 years" qne then when you put it back again I did not touch it anymore. Would you please explain what's so "unwiki-like" about that?!
:: Rex  09:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologise, and also for the times I was unpolite to you earlier. You are listening to arguments in this case, so I retract my statement above. Some things that are utterly obvious to me aren't obvious to others; I know this, but it's hard to not get irritated sometimes. I have now browsed around a bit in :Category:Wikipedia image help and related places, and there doesn't seem to be a guideline on this; maybe I should add one. – gpvos (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image with ugly font removed

message: Achternaam doesn't literally mean "aftername"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Äpple (talk • contribs) 
:Not literally, because that would be "nanaam". Achternaam would be "behindname" literally.
:Rex 14:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Surname is the word. Rp (talk) 00:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Achternaam

message: As of 30 October 2006, per WP:WIAGA, I made a speedy failing of this article for GA, because of the following reasons:
# Lead section is not enough, per WP:LS.
# There is no reference in this article. The list in the References section is basically External Links, not citations.
Whenever the above matters are resolved, you can renominate this article again. If you feel disagree with this review, then you can submit this article for re-review. — Indon (reply) — 15:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA is failed 

message: I never understand how to add a query or "new" item... I looked up this article on Dutch and Flemish surnames because I have observed among my Flemish friends a tendancy to use two surnames; to combine the surnames of the father and mother. As I myself live in Spain; I hypothesized that this tendancy might have arisen during the period in which the "low countries" were Spanish possessions. I am sorry to see that the use of the two surnames is barely touched upon and that the possible relation between it and the "Spanish period" of Low Countries history is not addressed; even if only to be discounted as a fallacy. I'll look back in the future and see if anyone has noticed this query, and/or replied to it. Sorry. 81.43.78.61 23:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure you aren' t confusing ' tussenvoegsels' with surnames? For exmaple in [...] Vander Berg, " Vander" is not a surname. Rex 08:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A late reply, but anyway... I think our Spanish friend is referring to Miss Jansen marrying Mr Smit and becoming Mrs Smit-Jansen. In Dutch-speaking areas, this is only common for women after marriage; in the (far) past, Mrs Smit may have been the only socially acceptable choice, nowadays one would see (relatively) more often that a woman keeps her maiden name after marriage, ie. Mrs Jansen in this case. I think the surnames section sufficiently mentions this now. In the Netherlands, this is not commonly thought to be connected with the Spanish times as far as I know; at least, I have never heard people speculate about that. I would like to see references either for or against it before mentioning speculation about such a connection in the article. – gpvos (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: The article states that Van names may refer to something other than a geographical indication, citing Van Bruggen as an example.  I strongly doubt that (e.g. Bruggen is a town near Roermond, in an area where *every* place name has a corresponding Van surname associated with it) so I'd like to see some confirmation. Rp (talk) 00:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. Van Beek (brook) is another example. And there are probably many more. But where is the town Bruggen (bridges) named after?Knillis (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

text: How about "Van den Boogaardt", "Van de Kerkhof", "Van der Vaart" "Van de Munnikenhof"? Try this link Nederlandse familienamenbank De website is of course in Dutch but with the latest version of Google Chrome this is no problem:  highlight a section of the text. Then right-click near, but not on, the highlighted text. A dropdown menu should show that gives the option to "translate to English" (if English is your default language). There should also open up a window after you have done that, that allows you to toggle between Dutch and English. Hope this is useful. Ereunetes (talk) 23:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Van" names after occupation??? 

message: Why there's a space between van and 't (for example in van 't Hoff)?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.22.38 (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Like 'cause it's two words mate, just as in "like 'cause it's two words". " 't " is short for "het" which means "the". C mon (talk) 16:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that's a valid explanation. "Don't", "that's", "it's" are also basically two words: "do not", "that is", "it is", although there is no space in between "that" and "'s", etc...  07:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It actually IS a valid explanation. In Dutch, unlike in English, abbreviated words are not glued to the following or preceding word. So we write `s avonds (not `savonds), maak 't 's effe (not maak't 'seffe). Do not make the mistake of applying English spelling rules to Dutch! - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 07:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

text: ;:It's true about it being two words, but the English example used does not make sense. As you say, English spelling and grammar rules are not the same in Holland.  11:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  True.... But these are personal names. They're in the original Dutch and Dutch does not use two-word contractions. Moreover, the -n't contraction in English refers to '- not'. The 't in Dutch refers to 'het' (it). Not the the same thing. 88.159.240.142 (talk) 18:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Particles like 't and 's are grammatical contractions of the definite article het, and the declension des of de (the other definite article; it is the genitive) respectively. There is a spelling rule in Dutch that says that words starting with an apostrophe (like these examples and also the contraction 'k for ik) are never capitalized, not even at the start of a sentence, but that the next word is capitalized if that is appropriate. Examples: the name 't Hoen, 'sGravesande and this sentence: 'k Heb je lief, maar je weet 't niet Ereunetes (talk) 23:43, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: '

message: The relatively recent introduction of Dutch surnames is a bit of a myth, and unfortunately it is quite widespread even among Dutch people. The reality is that from 1811 is has been obligatory to register a surname with the authorities. However, that does not mean that people didn't have surnames at all before then. Church records and other documents show that most people's surnames go back several hundred years. I did some family research and found that all (okay, in truth I didn't go back all the way to the year 0) of my ancestors - even the most lowly paupers among them - already had fixed surnames a very long time before 1811. The article should probably reflect that the 1811 date refers only to the legal requirement to register a name. I don't really know how to put that in the article in clean English, so if someone can help rewrite that bit I would be grateful. Vlaflipje1982 (talk) 14:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "recent introduction in 1811" 

message: The footballer Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink has an unusual surname apparently formed by a merger of two farming families of equal importance. 'Of' roughly means 'or', so this is like a double-barelled name. Should this practice be mentioned in the article, how common is it?--MartinUK (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is rather rare, so if it is mentioned it should not get undue attention. Arnoutf (talk) 20:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 'of' double-barrelling

message: Can someone whose English is better than mine, edit this section and remove Naaktgeboren?
This name originally was German, Nachgeboren, which means born posthumous, after the father had died.
The Latin form exists too, Posthumus. Barbara Touburg (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an interesting remark. Do you have a citation to prove it? If so, why don't you put it the article, appropriately referenced? Ereunetes (talk) 23:45, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Dutch surnames 

message: In the aftermath of the Huguenot flight from France and southern Belgium, many people took French names into Holland.  The common prefix de in French (meaning "of") could easily be confused with the Dutch de ("the") in many (but not all) surnames.
Many names could be translated --  de la Rue becoming  van der Straaten, de la Montagne becoming van den Berg.Pbrower2a (talk) 02:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huguenot name confusion 

message: I disagree with the naming rules in the section Stability. Genealogical findings among about 4000 of my Dutch ancestors who lived during the 3 centuries leading up to 1945 make it absolutely clear that the rules were:
1. First-born son is named after paternal grandfather
2. First-born daughter is named after paternal (not maternal!) grandmother
3. (*) Second son is named after maternal grandfather
4. (*) Second daughter is named after maternal grandmother
5. (More often than not) Third son is named after father
6. (More often than not) Third daughter is named after mother
7. Subsequent children were often, but not strictly, named after uncles and aunts - there was some liberty of choice here.
(*) The infant mortality rate was high. If a son had died before his next brother was born, this younger brother was more often than not given the same name. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for a daughter.
These rules were applied quite rigorously by my Protestant forebears (who number about 90% of them), which was a great help in tracing many of them. The app. 10% Catholics made it slightly more difficult because they often - but by no means always - gave their children more than one Christian name. (Some Protestants started doing this as well but only in recent times, i.e. from the 19th century onwards.)
The (more complicated) rules as mentioned in the extant text are nowhere in evidence among my ancestors.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collideascope (talk • contribs) 23:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The "precedence rules" you refer to sometimes had unintended consequences. If a grandparent had many children, who also had many children the rules led to a surfeit of people with the same given and surnames. One had to distinguish between them and therefore the custom of giving patronymics developed, long after the use of "real" patronymics died out. So I have had great uncles that had "Gzn" or Hzn" behind their name (for" Gijsbrechtszoon" and Hendrikszoon" respectively). This is an important help to genealogists. Ereunetes (talk) 23:54, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Stability 

message: The extant text reads:
"Combining these "parts" was used when the child was named after family or other relatives. For example the child would receive two parts from different family members, in this way a father named "Hildebrant" and a mother called "Gertrud" would call their son "Gerbrant" and their daughter "Hiltrud"."
This reads as if this name-combining was the usual thing. I very much doubt that. Examples of a contrary nature are easy to find, e.g. the hereditary AEthel- of the kings of England - and their daughters; the wholly male combinations of a.o. Chlodovech, Chil-, -bert, -rich of the early Merovingians; the lists of kings of the Goths.
The example given looks like wishful thinking to me. This manner of name-giving may have occurred, but it was by no means the standard. This text needs a verifiable source, some undisputed historical examples, or deletion.
Collideascope (talk) 16:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germanic period: combining name parts 

message: Please help with a thread in MOS talkpage?
Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Dutch_and_German_surnames_van_.26_von ...JGVR (talk) 03:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: MOS needed

message: For me as a Dutch reader, the text is confusing, partly because the issue of surname prefixes is dealt with twice, and partly because at least three different words are used for them: "prefix", "preposition", and "tussenvoegsel" (which is indeed the Dutch word for elements between a given name and an family name, but which also means "infix"). I suggest using only one good English term throughout the article, with possible reference to and explanation of the other terms, if necessary.Redav (talk) 12:19, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: And that good technical term is Affix, or rather separable affix But your point is well taken. The "van"s were originally, prepositions, but transitioned to being affixes (mostly prefixes, but also infixes, as in Van der Duyn van Maasdam) And "tussenvoegsel" should have been "voor-", "tussen-" and "achtervoegsel". The first and last translate to affix in my Dutch-English dictionary. But if you look into the current text version (March 2023) of Dutch name and Capitalization#Compound name you'll find that the problem has been taken care of. Ereunetes (talk) 00:02, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prefix vs. preposition vs. tussenvoegsel 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Dutch name. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080909094309/http://www.geocities.com:80/namenindekrant/nrc.htm to http://www.geocities.com/namenindekrant/nrc.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A paragraph in the Tussenvoegsels section talks about the order of names, however it speaks of the order of precedence between the family name and the surname, which are the same thing.
AI0867 (talk) 13:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name order in Tussenvoegsels section 

message: Almost nothing about Flemish names and surnames. Xx236 (talk) 11:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite! Why don't you solve this problem yourself? Everybody is entitled to put in well-referenced edits Ereunetes (talk) 00:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no Idea about the problem, so I am asking for help. Xx236 (talk) 08:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is formally that there formally is no difference between "Dutch" and "Flemish" names. But it is of course true that certain names occur more often in the Netherlands than in Belgium and vice versa. This site may give useful information on the relative distribution Nederlandse Familienamenbank. The site is in Dutch but you can use Google Chrome for translation to English (highlight a section. Then right-click on the page. A dropdown menu will appear with an option to translate. Click that and the translation will miraculously appear). This is a sample page for the name "Van den Bossche" ("typically Flemish" in my biased view) Van den Bossche I hope this is useful Ereunetes (talk) 00:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flemish ?