Talk:Gesso

message: Yes; but what IS it? Graham 07:28, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have researched Gesso for about eight weeks, not being an artist, but a Catholic engineer with artistic inclinations.(?) I studied not organic chemistry in college, but polymer chemistry - which some would say is an overlap - but I say not. Anyhow, inorganic chemistry (the table of elements) and polymer chemistry showed me many things now that intrigue my interested in gesso. 71.218.255.101 (talk) 07:06, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The above description is inaccurate.  Rabbit skin glue contains no fat whatsoever.  It is derived from the collagen in the skin itself and is a substance akin to gelatine. Artemis-Arethusa (talk) 15:03, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Composition

message: I still don't understand when do you use gesso for priming, how do you use it, do you use gesso only, and where can you buy such a thing? Also how long does it take to dry.
young artist
Google is your friend - look for technical manuals in online bookstores. This is an encyclopaedia (or supposed to be ...).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.118.231 (talk) 13:05, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  gesso in art 

message: "Gesso" is pronounced "JEH-so."  "JEH" like in Jerry.  "So" as in so. :-)
Where to get gesso... Googling for "Easy Gesso Mix" and "real gesso" will bring up some hits for where to get real gesso.  So-called acrylic gesso is available at just about every art supply store and web site.
Gesso and acylic gesso both dry very fast.
Real gesso is for panels, not canvas.  Acrylic gesso is frequently used on canvas.  Inexpensive pre-primed canvases are (almost?) all primed with the acrylic stuff.
Canvas has to be sealed against the oil, which will eventually rot the canvas. Yep, linseed oil (made from flax) will rot linen (made from flax).  Strange but true. The sealer is called a "size."
The traditional way to prepare canvas is to size it with rabbit skin glue, to seal it against the oil, and then coat it with an oil based ground.  Lead white paint, with or without chalk or whatnot is a traditional ground. Canvases prepared with lead white are best after they have dried for six months or more.
If you put enough acrylic gesso on a canvas, it will be sealed sufficiently.  The question is how much is enough.
The traditional way to prepare a panel is with gesso (Italian for "chalk"), which is a mixture of glue, chalk, and frequently white pigment.  Many people consider real gesso to be the gold standard of panel grounds. See comments below.
Now the comments.  
Some of this entry reads like a polemic favoring acrylic "gesso."  There may be better, modern alternatives to rabbit skin glue for sizing canvas, (I could not say), but acrylic gesso is by no means the only option.  There's nothing here about the lingering concerns some have that the oil paint will eventually delaminate from an acrylic ground. (There are no three hundred year old paintings on acrylic gesso.)  There is also no mention of two draw-backs: 1) Acrylic gesso stains immediately, making some kinds of underpainting methods impossible; 2) Acrylic gesso is hard and rough.  It is next to impossible to sand.  It wears on the brushes very badly.
:: This has now gone from a polemic favoring acrylic gesso to one against it.  It is no means an established fact that oil paint will eventually delaminate from acrylic gesso.  I would think it probably won't.  I am removing that part.
Jive Dadson 08:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, in fact I have re-added the portion about the negatives of using acrylic gesso. I have referenced "The Painter's Handbook" which mentions this. If you have been painting in oils on acrylic gesso, I pity your paintings in 100 years. When you read about the mechanism for this, it becomes quite clear why a lot of painters are going to rue their decisions--or rather the next owner of those paintings is going to reject that. Please do not remove this material, as it is based in fact.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curmudgeon99 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay, I just did a little bit of googling on acrylic gesso delamination and I found people who had experienced the delamination. Also, this link: http://forums.studioproducts.com/showthread.php?t=28610 describes a conversation with a senior curator at the Smithsonian who clearly rejected acrylic gesso for oil paint and extolled the long-term virtues of Rabbit-skin glue. To quote the relevant passage:
"The main reason I switched was a conversation I had with Dr. Marion Mecklenberg of the Smithsonian. In his research on older oil paintings he found that the original canvases had lost their tensile strength and it was the RSG that was basically supporting the aged,brittle paint films. He has been acting as a consultant for various enterprises trying to develop modern sizing materials. As of our conversation of a year ago he said none of the new materials as currently constituted ( PVA sizes, acrylic fabric stiffeners, etc. ) could match the strength, and as I understood it combination of body and 'good' stiffness of RSG and so provide the support to ageing oil paint films that RSG does. He felt that the support provided by RSG was much more important than the fact that it is somewhat hygroscopic. The hope is that new stuff will come along that can match RSG's support capabilities without being hygroscopic, but evidently we're not there yet."
So, folks, if you remove this information about the negative effects of using oil paint over acrylic gesso, you are distributing damaging misinformation.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curmudgeon99 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some answers and comments 

message: Does anyone know how Margaret Macdonald made her gesso panels?
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Is it just me, or do these lines at the end of the 'Acrylic gesso' section sound more like an assault on canvas manufacturers and an advertisement for books than an encyclopedia entry?
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Well, the tone of that passage is intended to counter the unsupported claims of persons who wish that acrylic gesso did not cause the delamination. I would be happy to restore that passage in a neutral form but then you will have the harpies coming to eliminate the passage. It is a pretty well known fact that the Smithsonian's curators prefer Rabbit Skin glue over acrlyic gesso to go under oil paint. If we can assume that this issue is done, then I will favor putting in non-defensive text on that point.
"Of course, manufacturers of pre-gessoed canvas will deny this delimination takes place. Unfortunately, the science is pretty clear. Please refer to "The Painter's Handbook" for details. Also, another textbook "Artist's Manual" also refers to the negative effects of using oil paint over acrylic gesso."  —Preceding Curmudgeon99 comment added by 71.178.237.51 (talk) 06:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Margaret Macdonald Glasgow Four 

message: I came to this page looking for something on the use of gesso in hand tooled leatherwork, but found nothing. Room for expansion of the article by some knowledgeable person, I hope. 87.114.166.36 (talk) 05:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leatherwork 

message: rm this revision to talk for integration because text presenting one claim should not be replaced by an opposite finding, it should be added on so both are presented. Also a commercial website article/claims (goldenpaints.com) are not WP:RS. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Did a cleanup and tried to merge material. Source http://www.ndt.net/article/art2008/papers/166Maor.pdf and source http://qspace.library.queensu.ca/handle/1974/1487 is a study of oil and alkyd paints, not acrylic gesso. Ended up removing all that material and trimming back the para for WP:NOTHOWTO. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 03:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia does not present "either/or" balance. It presents material based on reference (see WP:V and WP:NPOV). I have reworded accordingly and some other edits. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:00, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

text: "If some texts said so" we cite it. We don't interpret it, guess why artists used something else, or throw in our own opinions on the matter. If there are things well documented in many textbooks then that should be cite, probably in a sub-section titled "Controversy". I have reworded to cite directly what a single text said. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:21, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Gesso at its basic form is an absorbent chalk like ground. Acrylic gesso is a plastic and therefore incompatible with many techniques that require gesso, such as ink and water medium under-painting, egg-tempera, gold leaf base, etc. So it is correct that "acrylic gesso is technically not gesso at all".  Acrylic gesso could be called similar to an oil ground, replacing an oil binder with an acrylic binder, but that is another story. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Per "ever used acrylic gesso", yes, I have used all the mediums above except for gilding. Please do not remove material referenced to (multiple) text books just because you disagree with them (see WP:V). Also do not miss-represent sources re: "Basic Gilding with Acrylic Gesso" By Madame Elizabeth de Nevell simply gives recipes for gilding and states "Modern acrylic gesso is made for priming canvases and other surfaces, but should NOT be confused as a substitute for the type of traditional gilding base", "USING XRF FOR SEMI-QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS IN A STUDY OF DELAMINATING PAINT" is not a longevity study of Acrylic gesso, it is "an investigation into the cause of paint delaminating from the ground in some modern paintings". Claim "The 60 year time test of acrylic gesso ground has not revealed any delamination owing to such claimed miss-match so far" has no reference. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:23, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

text: "Acrylic gesso is the most popular ground" to "Modern 'acrylic gesso' is a widely used ground"?... that is because of WP:PEACOCK. Is it a "popular ground" or is it just there? All we could say is its there.... everyone may hate it but can't or won't use the alternative. Per other edits... thats all part of the Wikipedia Core Content policies. You are sort of missing the point since Wikipedia is nether a textbook, a school essay, or a PhD thesis (see WP:NOT). Its an encyclopedia that simply reports things from other sources, like the ones I just restored. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:09, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acrylic gesso claims 

message: It might be useful to add something about the uses of gesso as a low-relief modeling medium. This seems to have rather fallen out of favor today, but was reasonably widespread in the past. (See, for instance, the December 1919 issue of 'School Arts' magazine, which covers the subject in depth, including two recipes for gesso.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.243.132.128 (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modeling Uses 

message: The section on soy-based gesso has been quoted and pondered on a few discussion boards, and the general consensus appears to outsiders that the section is written like an advertisement by Marshall Carbee or someone at his company. The information may all be factual, but I couldn't find reliable sources from third-parties to back up the claims.
More info on Carbee and his gesso (which will probably trip the spam filters):
* http://www.marshallcarbee.com/
* http://www.investorideas.com/news/2013/renewable-energy/05134.asp
* http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20090724-BIZ-307249997
* http://www.linkedin.com/company/carbee-eco-art-products
Additionally, the Website where you supposedly can go to research and/or purchase this product is no longer available, and it never made it into The Internet Archives.
Excluding Carbee from search results, I find general interest in the idea of soy-based gessos. I also find many references and quotations of this Wikipedia article (and therefore assertion that the product exists, since it's in Wikipedia, it must be true). However, I cannot find any other manufacturers, nor can I find any third-party support for the claims made in the section, other than the ones related to Carbee's product and probable press releases.
If anyone can locate any other sources, that would be very helpful. If not, the article needs to be updated to somehow indicate something like alternatives, such as soy-based gesso, may be available but are not widely used. But even that innocuous claim should be substantiated. —Willscrlt ( Talk  com  b:en  meta ) 19:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Both this section, "Soy-based gesso", and the next, "Sculpture", completely lack references.  I have accordingly flagged them so that readers are aware that the claims made there are unsubstantiated.  Lest anybody believe that this is just "drive-by tagging", let me state clearly that I've searched for suitable references but can find none.  There was a relevant discussion on WetCanvas forum in 2010, where the consensus supports the old saw that: "exceptional claims require exceptional evidence", none of which has yet appeared.  yoyo (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soy-based gesso 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Gesso. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150603155459/http://books.google.com/books?id=o23u0SuRLxsC&pg=PA321&dq=%22Italian+gesso%22&hl=en&ei=vxWqTKYIxZuWB4yr7YAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCQ to http://books.google.com/books?id=o23u0SuRLxsC&pg=PA321&dq=%22Italian+gesso%22&hl=en&ei=vxWqTKYIxZuWB4yr7YAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22Italian%20gesso%22&f=false
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140122103955/http://books.google.com/books?id=o23u0SuRLxsC&pg=PA64&dq=gesso+mixed+with+oil+ground&hl=en&ei=9RKqTOz-HYP7lwfcn_H0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA to http://books.google.com/books?id=o23u0SuRLxsC&pg=PA64&dq=gesso+mixed+with+oil+ground&hl=en&ei=9RKqTOz-HYP7lwfcn_H0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=gesso%20mixed%20with%20oil%20ground&f=false
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150603155459/http://books.google.com/books?id=o23u0SuRLxsC&pg=PA321&dq=%22Italian+gesso%22&hl=en&ei=vxWqTKYIxZuWB4yr7YAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCQ to http://books.google.com/books?id=o23u0SuRLxsC&pg=PA321&dq=%22Italian+gesso%22&hl=en&ei=vxWqTKYIxZuWB4yr7YAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22Italian%20gesso%22&f=false
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 10:29, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: That's only half-true, since it contains chalk and the acrylic replaces Renaissance materials with modern ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.118.231 (talk) 13:02, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Kind of like saying "gasoline technically not water at all" is not true because both are liquid. Acrylic "gesso" is unusable for most applications Gesso is used for. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: "Acrylic "gesso" ... is technically not gesso at all"