Talk:General welfare clause

message: I have begun a new page on this as a general concept, see Talk:Taxing and Spending Clause for discussion. Cheers! bd2412 T 20:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: New page

message: Referring to the Madisonion Interpretation:
:§ 916. Stripped of the ingenious texture, by which this argument is disguised, it is neither more nor less, than an attempt to obliterate from the constitution the whole clause, "to pay the debts, and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States," as entirely senseless, or inexpressive of any intention whatsoever. Strike them out, and the constitution is exactly what the argument contends for. It is, therefore, an argument, that the words ought not to be in the constitution; because if they are, and have any meaning, they enlarge it beyond the scope of certain other enumerated powers, and this is both mischievous and dangerous. Being in the constitution, they are to be deemed, vox et preterea nihil, an empty sound and vain phraseology, a finger-board pointing to other powers, but having no use whatsoever, since these powers are sufficiently apparent without. Now, it is not too much to say, that in a constitution of government, framed and adopted by the people, it is a most unjustifiable latitude of interpretation to deny effect to any clause, if it is sensible in the language, in which it is expressed, and in the place, in which it stands. If words are inserted, we are bound to presume, that they have some definite object, and intent; and to reason them out of the constitution upon arguments ab inconvenienti, (which to one mind may appear wholly unfounded, and to another wholly satisfactory,) is to make a new constitution, not to construe the old one. It is to do the very thing, which is so often complained of, to make a constitution to suit our own notions and wishes, and not to administer, or construe that, which the people have given to the country. [Emphases supplied.]
Upon reading this, and upon reading the Court's language, the resolution to this conflict should be obvious. Esplainin2do (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This section in Story's Commentaries is a refutation of an resolution of the Virginia legislature in 1800 (not to be confused with the Madison-backed Virginia Resolution of 1798). To quote Story's section by itself and to attribute it to Madison alone (who wasn't even in the Virginia legislature), is to take it out of context and change its meaning. Also, as described above, Espy is not understanding that by saying "GWC is not an independent grant of power" is equivalent to saying that "Congress has no power to make general legislation for the general welfare"; i.e., while Congress certainly has a power to spend money for the general welfare, as Hamilton advocated in his 1791 Report, and as the Court endorsed in Butler, Congress does not have a general police power as the states do. -- Foofighter20x (talk) 04:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Justice Story's Conclusion

message: The following is in the page: While the Federalist papers are considered an important contemporary account of the views and intentions of the founders[17], they are widely considered to have had little effect on the actual passage of the constitution.[18][19][20]
Reading reference 18, I do not see the claim that the Federalist papers had little effect.  Matter of fact, I see the contrary claim.  What does seem factual is that the Constitution had sufficient votes to pass prior to New York voting.  However, I don't see this as evidence that the Federalist Papers (and the ideas expressed in them and presented in the convention while published in New York) had little effect.  And there is NO support that this is "widely considered".  I will strike the second half of this sentence unless there is some objection.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.177.43.149 (talk) 18:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Publication of the essays that became The Federalist only very rarely saw publication or reached audiences outside of New York. The people in other states, then, could not in sufficient numbers have read them. Thus, the essays can not be said to have had an effect on how those other citizens deliberated upon ratification. As the New York convention came late (New York was the eleventh state to ratify) and as the essays were almost entirely contained within New York, it's a pretty hard sell you are going to have to make to claim that those essay had any appreciable effect on informing the opinions of citizens in those states that ratified earlier than New York did. -- Foofighter20x (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impact of Federalist Papers 

message: Substituted at 21:42, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified