Talk:Somali clan

message: Second paragaph refers to 'recent conflict.' Which one would that be? Obviously not the recent bdefeat of the Islamic Courts as that would not be enough time to change marriage patterns. 
There information that is not true in the article, this article cannot be used as reference.  Correction or Deletion needed by the administration.
Like everything else about Somalia this article is confusing.  We state that there are four clans, then list five.  Under the Subclans heading, we describe six main clans (including Digil).  I don't have the authoritative answer on this but if someone does we need it.  215.65.49.70 08:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let me make this clear for you. There is the Major Clan. The Major Clan (there are 6 Major clans) then has Major sub clans(each Major Clan has a Major Subclan, Each Major Clan ahs Several Major Subclans within it.)... which has subclans (these subclans divided more), and the it continues and continues down to Family names. for example, lets present George Bush a name of a Major clan in Somalia... it would go like this
*George Bush
***3rd son of George Bush
*** .... (this can continue on and on; for example of Geroge Bush had 11 sons, then it would go on till the 11th son.)
now lets look at 1st son of George Bush, he is sons would be the next level of Break up. so it would go like this
*1st son of Geroge Bush
**1st son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (the grandfather is George Bush)
***2nd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)
****3rd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)
All other sons of George Bush would look like that... now let me give you a tree of Everything in one.
George Bush (Major Clan Name)
*1st son of George Bush (Major Sub clan)
**1st son of the George Bush's 1st son (Sub clan)
***1st son of the the 1st son of George Bush (sub clan)
****the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
*****the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
******this will continue on (another subclan on and on until it reaches family name)
Now Imagine that for all the same tree lader for all the sons of George Bush.
To use a real Somali Clan to demonstrate this, I will use the Hawiye. which you can find at the Hawiye Article. ( not to complicate this, I only use a few, if you want the to read further, read the Hawiye Article. )
*Abgaal ( Abgal is Sub clan of the Hawiye) 
*Ajuran ( this is a Sub clan of the Hawiye)
*Baadicadde ( another Sub Clan )
**Subeer ( All the names below are the sub sub clans of the Baadicadde  
**Afgaab
**Maamiye
**Ilaawe
**Xaamud
**Ibrahim Baadicadde
In this Example, The Abgaal, The Ajuran and the Badicadde all have the same father. In other words, The Subeer, the Afgaab,the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde have a common father who is Baadicadde. In this case, we say The Subeer, the Afgaab, the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde are the subclans of the Baadicadde which is a sub clan of the Hawiye. 
I hope this makes it little bit clearer and not so much confusing. when thing I hope not for is to make you even more confused! -- Samantar Abdirisaq 18:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: There is no clear agreement on the clan and sub-clan structures. The divisions and subdivisions as given here are partial and simplified. Many lineages are omitted. Note that some sources state that the Rahanweyn group is made up of the Digil and Mirifle clans, whereas others list the Digil as a separate group from the Rahanweyn. (For a comparison of different views on the clan lineage structures in Somalia see Conflict in Somalia (Worldbank, 2005, p. 56).) Ogayslabe/Ugaaslabe which is called Abdirahman Hassan Hamar Gale is a sub-clan of Warsangeli(Darod).
*Hawiye - 30%
** Abgaal,Xawaadle,Ajuran, Murule, Baadicadde, Jajele, Degodia, Udeejeen, Murusade, Garre, Habar Gidir, Sheikhaal and Gaaljecel.
*Darod - 25%
** Majeerteen, Mareexaan, Warsangeli, Dhulbahante, Awrtable, (Liban gashe) Ogaadeen, Geri Koombe (and Leelkase.
*Rahanweyn - 17%
** Leysaan, Xariin, Hadame, Eelaay, Jiroon, Luwaay, Geelidle, Boqorhore, Gasaargude, Hubeer, Yantaar and Jilible. All of these sub-clans belong to the larger Mirifle clan.
*Dir - 22% 
** Ciise (Issa), Gadabuursi, isaaq, Biimaal, Suure, Fiqi Muxumed, Qubeys, Gurguure, Baadimaal, Gaadsan, Akiishe, Madigaan, Gariire, Guure, Dabruube, Layiile and Wardaay.
**Isaaq 
Habarawal, Arap, (Garhajis, which is split into Eidagale and Habar Yoonis), Habar Toljeclo, better known as Habar Jeclo, Toljaalo, and Ayuub
*Digil - 3%
** Geledi, Tunni, Dabare, Jiiddo, Bagadi and Garre.
* Minorities / Others - 6%
** Tumaal, Madhibaan, Yibir, Eeyle, Yaxar,  Midgaan, Jareerweyne, Reer Xamar, Reer Baraawe and other Banaadiri clans.
To correct the above author, Ajuuraan is not Hawiye. Ajuuran is a clan that is not related to Hawiye.  The problem could be solved if you merely look at the Transitional Federal government and how ever Somali clan is represented as a cluster of one group out of FOUR MAJOR TRIBES/GROUPSh
==The "4.5  Formula"== waa xaaraan sidee qaf haaf looga dhigay 
To correct the poster above, the government actually follows a "4.5 Formula.":
This left out the Isaaq, one of the "Five Clans," which is utterly unrepresented in government, or considered part of the ".5" rump at best. It is otherwise the primary clan of the government of Somaliland. Lack of a set-aside for Isaaq in the TFG government is one of the concerns the Somalilanders have regarding proposals for re-integrating them into a republic with the rest of Somalia. --Petercorless 09:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Major clans

message: Isaaq is represented as Dir. 33 out of the 60 MPs given to Dir is Isaaq. They hold high government posts such as the Foreign Minister, Planning Minister, and Deputy Speaker. Fyi, 
The Foreign Minister who is Isaq by clan speaks out to the secessionist that they should participate the reconciliation.  the News http://www.garoweonline.com/stories/publish/article_7418.shtml
:Right. The way the "4.5" structure is organized, the Isaaq are part of the Dir. However, in other reckonings, such as that cited on the Somali clan page, the Isaaq are listed separately and as far more numerous than the Dir (3 times larger). Also note in the article you cite how the Somaliland government is rather adamant about separatism. --Petercorless 07:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isaq-Dir 

message: The 4.5 formula, is not recognized by the Isaaq clan (the majority population of Somaliland Republic), since they were not consulted in it's make up. A Somaliland leader stated: “Somaliland is a nation independent from Somalia,” citing 14 Somali peace conferences over the past 15 years, none of which the Somaliland administration participated in. Therefore, the ARTA or TFG governments of Somalia are not recognized by Isaaqs and do not represent citizens of Somaliland.  In retrospect, the 4.5 clan concept does not have any real legitimacy, since it was created by warlords and politicians in their attempt to create a clan based government in Somalia that best suited their objectives, without the input of the general Somali population.
It is a well known fact that members of the Isaaq, Gadabursi, and Isaa clans that are currently members of the TFG were not selected by their tribe.  For example, each of the 33 Isaaqs that joined Abdullahi Yusuf’s transitional government were invited and joined for personal reasons. They were not sent by the Isaaq population residing in Somaliland. The Foreign Minister of Somalia and other Isaaqs in Somalia’s government are considered as traitors by clansmen.  This is evident from the fact that none of these so called Isaaq representatives would not dare visit their home cities in Somaliland.
It is incorrectly noted above that Isaaq is part of the Dir clan.  Lineage of Sheek Ishaak (Isaaq) bin Ahmed is well known, there are several tribes in Yemen that are known by the names of his Yemeni sons.  The Arabs of Yemen meticulously recorded his history and to this day have his authored books.  Therefore, Isaaqs of Somaliland are not Dir.  It’s funny and not surprising to see that a commentator above is going out of his/her way to show that the Darood clan is the majority within the Somali population (though this is clearly not the issue at hand), even by dismissing CIA research.  Its sad to say, that’s how it starts with the Darood, by first claiming they are the majority, then it's “we're the most powerful”, and then, “only we should rule and be president”, and unfortunately it ends with murder of others who beg to voice their disagreement.
The correct and most logical position is that Somalis are made-up of 5 major tribes/clans, and a 6th group made up of unrelated tribes.   The 5 major tribes are Hawiye, Isaaq, Darood, Dir, and Digil-Mirifle. The 6th group includes many small tribes and minority groups.  -- Neo1922 21:05, 13 February 2007 (ETC)
:That's my understanding as well, however, one point of politics. In the Transitional Federal Government, and especially in terms of national reconciliation, the "Sixth Clan" is a pan-Somali political women's movement. The other clans would be best classified collectively as the "minor clans," which, of course, might cause some umbrage to people with distinguished and ancient lineages. --Petercorless 00:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Isaaq position 

message: "Somaliland" unilaterally self-declared itself as an entity seperate from Somalia, thus self-appointing its cabinet from its own clan members and building the so called state on that process of clannish foundation. However, that is a clear violation of the Act of Union signed.  For 'Somalialnd' to be considered as a seperate State, it must first get the approval from Somalia. You can't just self-declare as an independent state after the Somali Republic collapsed in 1991 and the whole country descended into anarchic situation, thereby leading to the emergence of other lineage conscious states just as Puntland and Sanag State.  Read this scholarly article. It discusses the Act of Union, which was signed when the two joined together right after independence. Article one of the Act of Union states, "“”The State of Somaliland and the State of Somalia do hereby unite and shall forever  remain united in a new, independent, democratic, unitary republic the name whereof shall be the Somali Republic.”
Source
Let us make up our minds and reach a consensus. We have to agree with what the international community sanctions as legitimate government. The TFG is regarded as a legitimate government of Somalia. And Isaq clan have 33 members out of the 61 members given to Dir. The larger number given to the Isaq indicates their majority status among the Dir confederation.
:Cite sources then, not about the legitimacy of the Somaliland government, which belongs under "Politics of Somalia/Somaliland" articles, but about the demographics of those areas. Don't soapbox here. --Petercorless 02:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the reference. This document shows an overview of the major clans of Somaliland (pg. 5), which is useful in part, but not in full, to answer questions of Somali ethnicity in that state. Also, we cannot use this table as a representative of the population by clan, as we have no guarantee that the percentages of the representation of government actually do follow percentages of civil demographics. --Petercorless 05:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Somaliland" and Isaq 

message: Dr. Barud writes, Ethnically, Isaq belongs to the Dir clan family. Of the four main Dir branches, Isaq belongs to Mohamed Maha Dir. Other Maha Dir sub-clans include Biyomal, Bajimal and Quranyob. The other Dir clan families in the north are the Gadabursi and Issa, who belong to Madaxweyne and Madobe Dir, respectively. The Isaq is divided into three main sub-clans namely: Garhajis (Habar Yonis, Ida Gale and Arap), Habar Awal and Habar Jelo. Garhajis who are the largest and most powerful sub-clan are against secession. Many Habar Jelo intellectuals I spoke with told me that majority of their peoples are not secessionists. 
Hence, the Isaq claim that they aren't ethnic Somalis or have been discriminated against by the south are pity fabrications and unfound hysteria engineered to incite hatred between the peoples of the south and north. In fact, it is in the records that the Hawiye and southern Dir sub-clans had greatly contributed to the formation and financing of the SNM in its very early stages. In his "The Cost of Dictatorship" book, Jama Ghalib (an Isaq) witnesses the contributions paid by the Southern Dir clans and Hawiye to the SNM in early 1980s. If there were no blood ties, then why wouldn't they pay the same contributions to the SSDF, which was Majerteen opposition faction? Source
::What might be best is to come up with comparison charts of the alternate branches, heirarchies and lineages as per various sources. There seems to be a repeated distinguishing between the Isaaq (which includes the Eidagalia, Habr Awal, Habr Holjaala and Habr Yunis) and the Dir:Issa (Ciise). If people can add to the article neutral, verifiable information about the divergence or relation of those two groups, that would be welcome. However, I don't want to see any contributions that smack of partisanship or which constitute original research. Base them on citable references. Avoid mixing political issues with biological and cultural ethnic issues. Don't dogfight or dig. Cite facts and please avoid partisanship. --Petercorless 03:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks much for the suggestion. If you happen to have that book, feel free to cite from it to help improve the article. No major plagiarism, of course, but a good amount of clarity could be gotten if you had such a source. Of course, other people are welcome to refer to that and other sources to improve the article. Yet please, no destruction of data or unfounded, unverifiable, unreferenced claims which wildly swing percentages of population or utterly wipe tribes off the map, thank you. We don't want to practice virtual "ethnic cleansing" via Wikipedia. --Petercorless 05:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DIR 

message: This map is to show how the Warsangeli and Dolbahante clans are so averted to the idea of secession. It first appeared in the Economist magazine.
left|340px| DISPUTED AREA 
Source
:This map we do not have permission to use. There are already maps on the territorial disputes over Sool and Sanaag in their region articles to show the conflicting claims of Puntland and Somaliland. Also remember this article is not about the politics of Somalia. Simply an article of what Somali clans exist. While you can make mention of political alignments, focus more on the demographic information about the clans themselves. Let's leave the drawing of political boundaries for the articles about each of the states, thank you. --Petercorless 01:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just deleted that as a copyvio. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 09:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A MAP THAT SHOWS THE DISPUTED AREA OF "SOMALILAND AND PUNTLAND"

message: Something like half the actual text of the article is an overlong quotation (inadequately marked as such); that probably isn't allowable under copyright law, which allows quotation under certain conditions of length and proportion (as well as use).  Here, we're using the quotation as a substitute for our own text. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 10:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've unprotected the article (though I'll be keeping a close eye on it), and commented out the problem section. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 10:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible copyvio 

message: All the info that I wrote in this section is sourced from Laitin & Samatar, but of course if other, correctly sourced info is added, then that will no longer be true. I therefore suggest that we indicate the source on each paragraph, something akin to my version of 08:59, 25 March 2007. Ok or not? I also think the wording of the second paragraph in that version was truer to the source. Gailtb 22:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for "Heirarchy of clans" 

message: Er, we've got a bit of a mess here. When I started the page, I tried to use Harvard referencing but this has got modified and now we have a mix of stuff. Some of the article, eg the introduction, has Harvard citations, but other parts have footnotes. The footnotes in the Notes section are not full citations, which they should be. And the References section now uses a format which I don't recognise, certainly not Harvard. Please can we reach a consensus, and then edit? Gailtb 22:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that consistency is important (though footnotes areperhaps the least of this article's problems).  Why did you (I think that it was you; apologies if I'm misremembering) delete one of the references, though?  However poorly formatted you thought it, it's better there than not, surely? --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 22:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Ah, thanks for the explanation. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 10:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: Just to explain the rationale for some of my edits: The Wikipedia naming convention is that pages ought to have their common English name rather than the native name. I'm therefore changing some spellings to the most common English versions rather than the Somali spelling. Gailtb 07:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there any genuinely common English versions?  The naming conventions only really apply to cases where there's a version in common use. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 18:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are versions which are commonly used in English. Isaaq, Darod, Issa and Marehan are some of the ones which spring to mind as having a common English spelling which differs from the Somali spelling. (For verification, do a Google search for English language pages with isaaq somalia and compare with the number of hits for isaxaaq somalia.) Gailtb 08:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of clan names 

message: There are a couple of <ref> notes in the article indicating some dispute as to whether :Sheikhaal is part of :Hawiye. As of late the notes have been subject to repeated removal and replacement. The notes probably stem from this statement in the Sheikhaal article: "Some Sheikhals, particularly the Aw Axmed Loobage subclan, claim they are part of the larger Hawiye group, while others, such as the Aw-Qutub subclan, dispute this." There doesn't seem to be any attribution for either claim. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheikhaal dispute