Talk:Ashina tribe

message: Should they be linked from the Japanese clans page?
:No it's a Turkic dynasty as mentioned in the Article--Ugur Basak 11:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the New Book of Tang, the Ashina were related to the northern tribes of the Xiongnu. I also read a translation. If I can find some time I will give Chinese references. 193.140.91.129 06:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It says country Suo, NORTH of the Xiongnu, not the Northern Xiongnu. There is no connection, just Turkish Nationalism.
--173.70.154.203 (talk) 20:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Ashina Turks are extremely well documented by historians.  Chinese and Greek especially.  I agree that the Ashina were not part of Xiongnu.  That theory assumes the Wusun were related to the Ashina.  I don't personally need anymore proof that Xiongnu spoke a proto-Turkish language and that Turks embarked on nomadic empire-building adventures and that the Ashina were a bit like real life superheroes.  If you live in a neo-fascist country that uses history to brainwash you, I'm sorry.  I'd hate to show you some real Turkic nationalism.
ANYWAY in case anyone wonders the Ashinas clan of Japan might be shoemakers?  Their name means "keeping an eye on legs and feet."  Or "observer of reeds."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 02:12, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese clans 

message: "These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history. However the composite of such narrates are broad and the sequel could have been ended one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it. "
These sentences make no sense to me. I would be happy to help put them in comprehensible English if someone could tell me what they are trying to say. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed phrase

message: What is "Xue" in the "references" section? Could you be more specific? --Ghirla-трёп- 18:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Xue 

message: I'm not a native speaker of English, and my language skills are limited. Perhaps it's the reason why I can't comprehend the phrase "These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history, however the probability was large and such sequel could have been one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it". I tried to comment it out, but another editor started to revert war and added another sentence that I can't parse. I seek your opinion, mediation, and/or advice how to proceed in this case. --Ghirla-трёп- 17:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your opinion. This latest edit makes me conclude that the only way to proceed is to file WP:RFC concerning Eiorgiomugini's behaviour. The guy is terribly possessive in that he restores his every edit, no matter how you try to process it. This attitude effectively blocks the articles on the Gokturks and Xiongnu from any reasonable editing or improvement. I will probably pen a RfC tonight. Let other wikipedians judge what measures should be taken in this case. --Ghirla-трёп- 18:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Which articles are we talking about? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem currently revolves around Ashina and Tarim mummies. But it is much wider than that. I think the guy reverted almost every edit I made to Gokturk-related articles today. Since I plan to write more stuff about that part of the world, I don't see how it may be practicable if this pattern of behaviour continues. His current revert-warring does nothing to encourage me (or anyone else) to keep editing those articles. P.S. Check Eiorgiomugini's block log. --Ghirla-трёп- 18:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all your efforts. You may also want to check the ongoing discussion on Dbachmann's talk page. It concerns the best way to spell the word "khagan". --Ghirla-трёп- 06:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ashina]] 

message: You would be well advised not to address your fellow editors with this type of profanity. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Briangotts's complain

message: I think we needs a specific quote about what Togan said on the Ashina, such WP:POV claim needed to be addressed properly (including the reasoning) as well. Eiorgiomugini 02:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop distorting the facts. I don't know whether it's your command of the language or bad will that makes you pretend to see so much difference between "powerful" and "main". You may replace one epithet with another, if you think they are not synonyms. In fact, I fail to understand how a dynasty may be described as "main" if it does not wield actual power. Your gratuitous accusations of "cheating" are not to be tolerated. We are not supposed to quote sources verbatim, as that would constitute breach of copyright. Your point that the Genghisids are not a branch of the Borjigin is very peculiar and needs to be sourced. Since it was me who wrote our articles about Genghisids and some Scythian royals too, I know what I'm talking about. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Most powerful royal house and [[WP:OR]]

message: Now, I had asked this guy named  earlier up for a mediation, but he refused even though our disputes carried on. Is there other way could be done about this? I need several opinions from you guys. Eiorgiomugini 14:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask for a third opinion? Or try a requests for comment on the article(s) in question? Moreschi  Talk 14:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I told you that I'm not interested in Ashina any more. I'm concerned about your systematic removal of references from Suyab now. You are an experienced editor and probably know the difference between this board and Village Pump. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No, I meant request comment on the article(s), not the people involved.  An article RfC as oppposed to a user conduct one. Moreschi  Talk 14:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: moved here from WP:AN/I, listed on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. dab (𒁳) 14:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comments

message: From the article:
The Ashina probably comes from one of the Iranian languages of central Asia and means "blue", kok in Turkic, the color identified with the east, so that Gokturk, another name for the Turk empire, meant the "Turks of the East".
In old turkish the color identified with the East is Yellow. The name of the Yellow Sea comes from Turkish. Blue is the color that identifies holyness and royalty as it is the color of the SkyGod. So, Gokturk does not mean "Turks of the East", it means "Royal Turks". I have to check my books for reference.
That's true - the sun rises in the east.  "Descendants of the sky" or "Celestial born" are good translations as well as "Turquoise Turks".
Ashinas also means "Recognized" in Iranian.  In Japanese it means "leg and foot observer".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 01:01, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  A mistake about color identification 

message: I hope I am not alone in seeing that the "Ashina Ancestry DNA" project is highly speculative.  Aside from ignoring that the Ashina originally come from Xingjiang, it ignores genetic studies done on Xiongnu mummies and the Tarim Basin mummies, as well as ignores that the Ashina, much like the Saka, were not originally Xiongnu and adopted their culture post conquest/absorbtion.  As a historian I find this project to be disconcerting in much the same way that the Davidic Dynasty project has no basis in historical fact.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Turks didn't even mix with the Mongols or any other people like that, there was only a cultural exchange that occured. Xiongnu, on the other hand share the same genes as Xianbei and other people. Therefore,Turks couldn't be the descendents of Xiongnu since they do not share the same genes. 
Also, Xiongnu split into two groups, North and South. Southern Xiongnu integrated with Chinese in Shaanxi province, and Northern migrated westward into Europe. No Turks split off from these two groups. The Gokturks who invaded China hundreds of years later were not the same, and only Turkish nationalists try to claim so (even saying Native Americans are Turks). 
http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_16596591-population-origins-mongolia-genetic-structure-analysis-ancient-modern.htm 
http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_17905712-genetic-analyses-affinities-tuoba-xianbei-xiongnu-populations.htm --Xiaogoudelaohu (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  DNA Project 

message: http://www.google.com/books?hl=tr&lr=&id=8-OilJCX1moC&oi=fnd&pg=PA136&dq=cultural+contacts+central+asia+ashina+turks&ots=PB1tYoVetw&sig=L8Kierke9nLDjx0j2MYlRN97tK8#v=onepage&q&f=false
See the book below pages 142-143
Humanbyrace (talk) 22:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ashina was an east Iranian clan 

message: I did my bit at trying to make this article readable because the topic is highly interesting and the author put so much effort in his job, so it was a pity the average reader would not be able to understand much.
I hope I did not misrepresent anything: if so please feel free to rectify and I will help with the language.Aldrasto11 (talk) 07:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Readability 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ashina clan which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 16:30, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: I know a ton about the Huns, but not enough about the early Turks to rewrite this page. But this entire thing has been corrupted by pseudo-history and nationalism. I recognize most of the "scholars" cited on here from sites like "TurkicWorld" and "HunnoBulgars.blogspot" like M. Zuev, etc. and their work is not accepted by mainstream, Western scholarship at all. MMFA (talk) 01:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  This whole page needs serious rewriting by an accredited expert on the Early Turks 

message: I have rewritten the article which had many errors including puttin two times origin section, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ashina_tribe&diff=prev&oldid=934644256 here is the rewritten version. Some sources were faked and used wrong. All those writers mention it about its etymological origin. I have removed some writers, because they were citing Klyashtorni as well. "This idea is seconded by the Hungarian researcher András Róna-Tas, who finds it plausible "that we are dealing with a royal family and clan of Saka origin" with "Rona-Tas 208" as source was not verifiable. Did try, but did find nothing. Also added language and religion, with more source. The language and religion should not be a dispute anymore. Took this from Peter B. Golden's book "Whatever language the Ashina may have spoken originally, they and those they ruled would all speak Turkic, in a variety of dialects, and create, in a broadly defined sense, a common culture." About the Wusun thing. It is completely fake that he said Ashina might descend from Wusun. Plus he says that Wusun's were Iranians, not Indo Aryan as it was mentioned here. Here is the full text: "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians." Also there was a Russian source, where you can not verify anything, too much text and it is unsearchable even with translate. , , , thoughts? 
Regarding the texts:
* Several historians have pointed out that the origin of the Ashina is from the Indo-Aryan Wusun.[42]
This is not true, this is what Klyashtorni says, from the used source: "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians."
and 
* "Researchers such as Peter B. Golden,[13] H. W. Haussig,[14] S. G. Klyashtorny,[15][16] A. N. Bernstamm,[17] Carter V. Findley,[18] D.G. Savinov,[19] S. P. Guschin,[20] Rona-Tas[21] and R. N. Frye[22] have pointed out that the origin of the Ashina is from the Indo-Iranian Saka or Wusun.[23]"
Let us check one by one: 
* source [13] here "He suggests that it may derive from the Tocharian title arsilanci, stemming, perhaps, from a marital tie of the Türk with the Tocharians of Qocho (Beckwith 1987, 206-208). Shervashidze reads A-shih-na as *Ahsen(a)-sad (< Soghdian: Axsina "blue" + sad, an Iranian title) (1989, 79-80). This Iranian linguistic connection was first put forward by Haussig and Bailey. More recently, Sergei Kliashtornyi has revisisted this theme and, building on the earlier work, suggests that A-shih-na is the transcription of Khotanese-Saka "Asseina/assena "blue" (cf. Soghian *ahsane) or perhaps Tocharian Asna "blue", The Khotanese-Saka form seems closest to "Ashina." This nicely dovetails with the usage "Kök Türk," Blue Türks, found in the Kül Tegin / Bilge Qaghan inscription.
* source [15] and [19] is not verifiable
* source [18] Carter V. Findley says: The linguistically non-Turkic name, A-shih-na, probably comesfrom one of the Iranian languages of Central Asia and means “blue,” kök in Turkic, the color identified with the East, so that Kök Türk, another namefor the Türk Empire, meant the “Turks of the East.”"[Findley, Carter (11 November 2004). The Turks in World History (1 ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 39]
* source [20]: “As a result, the incomprehensible“ Sovereign House of Co ”, indicated as the ancestors of the house of Ashin, turns into the“ Saki Land ”somewhere north of the Hun ... those lands where the Pazyryk mounds and the Ukok plateau "[34]," concludes SP Gushchin. taken from here, a pseudo-source. can't find any info who "S P Gushchin" is. 
* source [24] and [42] here it says: "He suggests that it may derive from the Tocharian title arsilanci, stemming, perhaps, from a marital tie of the Türk with the Tocharians of Qocho (Beckwith 1987, 206-208). Shervashidze reads A-shih-na as *Ahsen(a)-sad (< Soghdian: Axsina "blue" + sad, an Iranian title) (1989, 79-80). This Iranian linguistic connection was first put forward by Haussig and Bailey. More recently, Sergei Kliashtornyi has revisisted this theme and, building on the earlier work, suggests that A-shih-na is the transcription of Khotanese-Saka "Asseina/assena "blue" (cf. Soghian *ahsane) or perhaps Tocharian Asna "blue", The Khotanese-Saka form seems closest to "Ashina." This nicely dovetails with the usage "Kök Türk," Blue Türks, found in the Kül Tegin / Bilge Qaghan inscription.
* source [22], R. N. Frye, here does not even mention Ashina!
I can not verify Rona Tas's content. 
Conclusion, they are talking about the etymological origin as I have mentioned earlier. 
It should be:
* Researchers including Peter Benjamin Golden, H. W. Haussig,Haussig Н. W. "Byzantinische Qullen über Mittelasien in ihrer historischen Aussage" // Prolegomena to the sources on the history of pre-Islamic Central Asia. Budapest, 1979. S. 55–56. S. G. Klyashtorny, Carter V. Findley, Rona-Tas have pointed out that etymological origin of Ashina might derive from Saka or Sogdian languages. Victor H. Mair says that Ashina, were migrants to southern Siberia, northern Mongolia, and are considerable number of Tocharian and Iranian loan words in Old Turkic, although a good number of these may have been acquire, especially Sogdian terms, when Sogdians were subject to the Turkic Khaganate.Victor H. Mair, (2006), Contact And Exchange in the Ancient World, p. 143
* According to Klyashtorny, the origin myth of Ashina shared similarities with the Wusun, although there is a significant difference that, whereas in the Wusun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not as in the case of the Turks. He also adds that Turk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Turk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wusun.
Beshogur (talk) 20:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article rewritten 

message: This statement is false. There is nothing in Petr Charvat's 2010 reference that makes the claim that the Ashina have Turkic origins, much less that "many sources" suggest that they have Turkic origins. -  Hunan201p (talk) 19:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "However, many sources also describe the Ashina as having Turkic origins.[19]"  

message: :*"The early Turks are sometimes called Kök ('Blue, Heavenly') Türks (Orkhon inscriptions, 263-4), a calque of *Khotanese Saka āsseina 'blue', i.e. the Ashina clan. Their origin is unclear; Chinese annals trace their lineage back to the Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu). Certain aspects of Ashina-led Türk culture (eastward orientation, numeral system, some personal names) are not typically Turkic, suggesting a mixed ethnic origin."
:*"Little is really known about the origins of the Türks. Their ruling clan bore the name Ashina probably an Eastern Iranian or Tokharian word" [...] "Bumïn, whose name, like those of many early Türk rulers is not Turkic," [...] "Sir derives from the sanskrit Sri (firtunate, auspicious), and Yabghu may be Iranian. These titles show the wide range of non-Turkic influences in the shaping of Türk imperial culture." 
:*High quality secondary source stating that the original Turks were not a homogeneic entity: https://brill.com/view/journals/inas/19/2/article-p197_197.xml
:Hunan201p (talk) 20:03, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Their origin is unclear; Chinese annals trace their lineage back to the Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu), not "Saka" "Wusun", etymological origin. Ashina probably an Eastern Iranian or Tokharian word, again nothing about its origin, but etymological. "High quality secondary source stating that the original Turks were not a homogeneic entity" so what, this is about Ashina. You disprove yourself. Thanks. No problem, anyway I am going to take this dispute noticeboard soon. Beshogur (talk) 21:11, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statements by Peter Golden and Oliver Nicholson, others  

message: I don't possess any copy of Duan (1988), Xue (1992), Lung (2011) and I admit that my Chinese is very rusty. Yet I don't think Richard L. Davis (with all due respect to him) has accurately translated Ouyang Xiu. Ouyang Xiu apparently classified Tiele, Yantuo, and Ashina as three greatest Western Turkic tribes, not that Yantuo & Ashina were Tiele. This is the Chinese original:
: 當是時，西突厥有鐵勒，延陀、阿史那之類為最大；其別部有同羅、僕骨、拔野古等以十數，蓋其小者也；又有處月、處密諸部，又其小者也。朱邪者，處月別部之號耳
My translation
: During that time, Western Turks had Tiele, Yantuo, Ashina group/kind as the greatest; [as for] their other/splinter tribes [Western Turks] had Tongluo, Bugu, Bayegu, etc. numbering about ten, overall they were all small. [Western Turks] also had all those Chuyue, Chumi tribes, they were also all small. These Zhuxie, another splinter tribe of Chuyue.
:: It's been nearly two years since you posted it, but yes, thank you for noticing this. The historical source does not say that the Ashina were of Tiele origin.
::Predictably, the 'verifiable' secondary sources propose a completely different version of reality than the current Wikipedia entry. 
::Quoting Lee & Kuang (2017), who reiterate: 
::
::So it looks like the Tiele association may be a mistaken assumption. - Hunan201p (talk) 19:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiele origin of Ashina 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ashina clan (Japan) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 00:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: One theory confirms the Mongolian ešin (aš) word for wife in Mongolian.
And the final ending -as is a plural suffix.
—22:59, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mongolian origin  

message: I have few things I want to edit in the physical appearance of this article but currently I am being prevented by Hunan201p to edit on anything. Can anyone out there please give me your opinions. You can check the history I had my edited version on the article of Ashina tribe] since 2nd of June, for a total of 2 months and 3 days.P
Keep in mind I first started this dispute first and replied everything till the end (above this article titled " Correcting some mistakes) Hunan201p 2 months didn't respond and than just decides to have everything removed.
Tell me if there's any problem.
1) Hunan201p used Lee and Kuang (2017) as sources in first paragraph but is not clear enough. It makes no explanation why they are different. I also use Lee and Kuang (2017) to explain further why historical records described Gokturks and Kirghiz so differently.
2) Editing Gokturk Khagans like Shibi Khan (also known as Ashina Duojishi) and Chuluo Khan were the reason for denying Simo from being a Shad for having Sogdian physical appearance just like it's stated in the Qilibi Khan page. 
3) I also want to make it more clear by adding physical description of Kyrgyz from the Old Tang of Book and 11th century Persian historian source no.1 and source no.2
Please give your opinion if you agree.Ghizz Archus (talk) 09:49, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember those edits on Blond, Red hair, Yellow Emperor. Seems familiar to another blocked user. Beshogur (talk) 19:44, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I want to say racism is properly partly involved. Hunan201p who was a blocked user doesn't want the other two Gokturk Khagan listed because they looked different and opposite to Simo ho was Sogdian(Iranian) looking. Look at Hunan201p history through Shinoshijak or through others, he always seems to have a bias in promoting Indo-European and Iranian theories and reject every other.Ghizz Archus (talk) 11:36, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Your most recent addition seems to be relevant to the article and does not seem to warrant complete deletion. It names the specific Ashina members who were suspicious of a certain Ashina member's ancestry in addition to the existing content. And frankly the non-English source does not seem the most reliable. It is in Turkish and has no page number. I have re-added a version of it with citation to existing English source. Qiushufang (talk) 05:26, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

text: A suspicious IP contacted me and alerted me to this page and Hunan's involvement. I had a run in with Hunan on Genghis Khan two years ago related to the physical appearance of the khans and the inclusion of their portraits. They were blocked for several months in the ensuing reports involving several users. Qiushufang (talk) 21:57, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

text: I am sorry I couldn't be more helpful.82.36.220.78 (talk) 13:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I see nothing wrong with 2).  " The Old Book of Tang records that Qilibi Khan was forbidden [ Insert here Shibi Khan  and Chuluo Khan ] from assuming the title of Shad, due to his Sogdian-like physical appearance.".82.36.220.78 (talk) 13:59, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

text: I agree with Qiu.82.36.220.78 (talk) 20:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

text: You are reading too much into things. I added cn tags because I could not find the citations, usually placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph. Citation [67] is not attached to the content with cn tags. Qiushufang (talk) 08:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

text: "The strong Iranian influence among the Turks of Ashina enables V. Stoianov to pose the question: "what if the Turk(yut)s represented a type of Turkicized Iranians,  or what if they, being Turks in the present day meaning of the word,  absorbed Iranian elements as well?"²⁷ This also prompts P.Golden to as quite possible that "religious and attendant concepts of royal ideology came to the Turkic peoples from from Iranian or even earlier Indo-Iranian contacts”.28 Or, put another way, “the allegedly mixed Saka-Altaic or possibly Wusun-Altaic origin of the Turks is reflected in their social structure, preserved terminology and even their appearance”.29
What is your opinion ???Ghizz Archus (talk) 13:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting help to build a consensus 

message: You added CN tags in the genetics section, but that content is already sourced in the inline citation [67].
From Lee (2018):
If it is the word "commonly" you object to, and I'm assuming that's what this is about, see quotes from the following papers:
From Shao Qing-Weng, et al 2021: 
And from Kim, et al (2010):
Also from Lee & Kuang (2017):
By no means an exhaustive list, and they're all secondary in nature, on this specific subject, citing independent sources. - Hunan201p (talk) 07:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You are reading too much into things. I added cn tags because I could not find the citations, usually placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph. Citation [67] is not attached to the content with cn tags. Qiushufang (talk) 08:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

text: "The strong Iranian influence among the Turks of Ashina enables V. Stoianov to pose the question: "what if the Turk(yut)s represented a type of Turkicized Iranians,  or what if they, being Turks in the present day meaning of the word,  absorbed Iranian elements as well?"²⁷ This also prompts P.Golden to as quite possible that "religious and attendant concepts of royal ideology came to the Turkic peoples from from Iranian or even earlier Indo-Iranian contacts”.28 Or, put another way, “the allegedly mixed Saka-Altaic or possibly Wusun-Altaic origin of the Turks is reflected in their social structure, preserved terminology and even their appearance”.29
What is your opinion ???Ghizz Archus (talk) 13:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics re: Qiushufang 

message: This edit was made by Volgabulgari, a sockpuppet. It includes original research(bolded) stating, "This genetic analysis supported the Northeast Asian origin of Ashina tribe and weakened the Indo-Iranian hypothesis.", which is a blatant lie. Said source, Ancient genome of Empress Ashina reveals the Northeast Asian origin of Göktürk Khanate, makes no mention of Indo-Iranian at all. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for finding out! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 18:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing sock edit & [[WP:OR]]