Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 1

message: Which one is it?:
*That same year, he became the first man of African descent[1] to win election to the United States Senate as a Democrat.[2][3]
*He is not only the sole African American currently serving in the U.S. Senate, he is but the fifth in U.S. history, the third since Reconstruction, and only the second Democrat.
Trovare 07:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction

message: Clarity was also my concern when I suggested this reduced version.  Fully agree that political prominence in the US of a person born to a father of Kenyan nationality is notable, but the forced language of this version (saying first "of African descent"--a confusing designation--, who is not appointed, who is not female, who is not Republican) trivalizes his Senate election as a historical event and will likely mislead the reader into construing a historical first that is not accurate.  Let's keep trying for something better.--HailFire 17:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tried for something better.  I hope it satisfies more than it displeases. Improvements welcome.--HailFire 01:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't have anything to add, other than to say that my thoughts mirror HailFire's. · j e r s y k o talk · 13:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I was thinking to add some neutral text and references about this, and also some other frequently debated topics that don't easily fit elsewhere in the article. --HailFire 09:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added the new section. I think it informs without taking sides. Hope you agree. --HailFire 07:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you serious? Check the discussion further down on the page. Jasper23 03:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: What is your logic? Because his mother is white he is European-american? Demographically? What do you mean by that? What wrong information? Jasper23 03:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Please.  Wikipedia works by consensus, not taking matters into one's own hands.  Try to assume good faith.  I have not closed my ears to all reason.  You keep saying "technically he is not an African-American", then claim that this discussion is "dealing with connotations and not denotations".  It seems you have a well-defined definition of the term that you're using, and it happens to exclude Obama.  Thus, perhaps it is more about denotations than it seems to be? · j e r s y k o talk · 03:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you have any issues with this? · j e r s y k o talk · 03:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: His father is from Kenya (African) and his mother is from the U.S.(American). I dont think we have focused on his fathers heritage, only the heritage of Obama. Does that help? Jasper23 04:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, what is this vibe you speak of? Jasper23 04:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure why not? Race is not an issue in a situation like that. German is German and American is American. Jasper23 04:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I dont know if the article is portraying Obama as anything of the sort. Is it implied or infered? So you are saying he is not part of a black ethnic group? What is the litmus test for that? 100% black blood? Going back for how many generations? Who counts as black? Who decides who is black and who is not? I honestly want to know what you think. Jasper23 04:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, what was that vibe that you mentioned? Jasper23 04:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you answer the questions I posed in my query? I am quite curious as to your reasoning about why he is not black. Here it is: So you are saying he is not part of a black ethnic group? What is the litmus test for that? 100% black blood? Going back for how many generations? Who counts as black? Who decides who is black and who is not? I honestly want to know what you think. I really do want to know why you do not believe he is black. My ears are open. Lets try to get through this point by point. Thanks. Oh, and I didnt revert that part because it wasnt sourced. Please take note of the edit summaries I have left. Thanks. Btw, what is this vibe you speak of? Jasper23 04:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I actually assumed you werent white. Who says you cant be black and european-american. Not me. Jasper23 05:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, Shakam.  Your last comment helped explain your position much more clearly (in my mind, anyway).  In fact, I'm sympathetic to to some of what you're saying, especially #1 above (number 4 is more troublesome to me, but I'll move on).  Perhaps my disagreement with you comes more from the emphasis we put on Obama's self-identification (if he self-identifies as Af-Am, we should ID him as Af-Am here as his identification is not patently unreasonable vs. we should note that he self-identifies as Af-Am because he's not technically Af-Am if he doesn't have greater than 50% African heritage)  Your "non-caucasian" idea is a good thought, but it might cause more problems (it's not clear whether Daniel Akaka, for example, should be included in this group).  Perhaps the best thing to do at this point is to file an RFC?  If no one objects, I will do so soon. · j e r s y k o talk · 13:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First of...

message: Why is it not acceptable to explain Barack Obama's heritage further instead of just leaving it at "African-American"
what differnce does it make? kenya is in Africa.
his father is kenyan, and his mother is white, not sure what nationality, though.
Colorfulharp233 02:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Barack Obama's Heritage

message: No mention of religion. There's a rumor going around that the guy is Islamic - can anyone confirm/deny?
::Not authoritative, but pretty highly suggestive: http://www.suntimes.com/output/falsani/cst-nws-spirit05.html Mgmei 00:13, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Obama is an evangelical Christian (ever since birth) and attends various churches in the southside of Chicago throughout the year to be with his constituents he represents in the Illinois General Assembly.  A smear campaign was devised by various independent bloggers during the primaries mentioning Obama as a member of the Islamic faith hoping that it would damage his campaign.  Obviously it didn't work but the rumor is once again being circulated to try to cut his lead in the polls.  --Gerald Farinas 15:42, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, his father was agnostic, but his paternal side was Muslim. His mother remarried a non-practicing Muslim man in Indonesia, where Obama attended a Roman Catholic school. Later, he began attending the church that he does now. Just wanted to clarify.--C.Logan 22:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The best source on this is Obama himself.  Read his 'Call to Renewal' Keynote Address of 28 June 2006. HailFire 07:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Obama's Religion

message: With Obama looking to have won the vacant Illinois senate seat easily, I've put in some holding edits to reflect a victory, and changed some present tense statements concerning the campaign to past tense. -- Minority Report
Over time, it may also make sense to prune some of the stuff in this article that is very specific to this campaign and this year.
Perhaps we should save it, put it in it's own page? I think it is good information and has historical value. Any ideas? is there precident? Pdbailey 18:43, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Senator 

message: The etymology of Obama's name is irrelevant.  There is no reason to go in depth into where his name comes from, just as other individual's names are not explained in depth, etymologically, or ad nauseum on their pages.  If you feel the need to explain where Obama's name comes from, you should feel a similar need to explain all other names which appear in wikipedia.  Why is the etymology of Obama's name important when, say, the etymology of Arlen Spector's name doesn't even appear on his page? Shsilver 12:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If the etymology is irrelevant, why does your latest edit include it?  Either delete the line entirely or let it be accurate.  I would support either of these options.  Barack does not mean "blessed" in Swahili.  No Swahili word is spelled with a ck.  Obama's paternal family are not even Kiswahili speakers; they speak Dholuo.  The name does come from the past participle of Arabic baraka "to bless" through the intermediary of African languages and spellings, but it is not simply "Swahili".  This type of simplistic etymology is typical of baby-name books, and has no place in an encyclopedia. Satyadasa 22:57, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted. Shsilver 12:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Barack Obama's given name really is unusual as far as the politics of the United States is concerned. No other current U.S. Senator has such an unusual name, and describing the etymologies of unusual given names that belong to prominent figures is hardly unprecedented in Wikipedia. A fitting comparison may be to Condoleezza Rice, whose article discusses the meaning of her highly unusual given name. However, based on what you've said, the etymology of "Condoleezza" appears to be less complicated than that of "Barack", and I agree that the etymology of "Barack" should be either correct or absent. NatusRoma 22:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: True, and etymology if included, and, perhaps, the genealogy, should probably go in a Trivia section rather than in Early Life  Satyadasa 08:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Okay, I like this guy.  But step back, and re-read this article as objectively as you can.  It's tremendously rah-rah.  The presentation of it is that Obama is basically a saint - it could be something issued from his PR. department.
:actually, there has been an ongoing case of senators cleanning up their pages on wikipedia (not personally, that is). Perhaps Obama is one of the many who have been doing it, he has a lot of reassons to do this considering that he is one of the possible democrat contesters for the presidential race.
::Perhaps there isn't a lot of negative stuff here simply because Obama hasn't spent a long time in Washington in which to build a record that can be attacked?  Just a thought. - Jersyko·talk 01:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rah-rah

message: First of all, Folksong, thank you for your edits on the commentary on Obama's convention speech.  You are correct, it was POV.  Your edit, and the edit since then, were both much better than what I had written.
On the subject of calling someone "late", I have long wondered how we decide when to use this term (as well as another term, 'then-', such as 'then-Senator Peter Fitzgerald'.  My thinking is that these terms need to be used sparingly, and only when they are needed to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.  For example, if I were to go into an article about, say, Edwin Stanton, and change references to Abraham Lincoln to say "the late Abraham Lincoln", we would all agree that that was unnecessary.  
Perhaps this is different because US Presidents are more famous than senators?  Then what about Lyman Trumball?  A US Senator from Illinois while Lincoln was president.  If I mention him do I need to say "the late Lyman Trumball"?  Is it a matter of how long ago ther person lived?  Then what about Everett Dirksen, US Senator from Illinois (and Senate minority leader) for three terms, who left office in 1969?  Do I really need to say "the late" when talking about a man who died (I think) around 1972?
I just think that the term is superfluous, except in that rare case when someone might legitimately be confused.  For example, let's say that one was writing a (news) story immediately after Obama's election, and wanted to provide the narrative of his campaign.  We might see the line (and I'm just making this up—I have no idea if this is true), "Senator Obama only decided to get into this race because he was urged to do so by the late Senator Paul Simon", which would be necessary so that the reader would know that this person, who had an impact on something current, had nonetheless died since providing this impact.
I guess (and I'm just thinking of this as I write, right now), that the term "the late so-and-so" probably has almost no place in an encyclopedic work, insofar as it is more of a historical record, than a journalistic one.  
Sorry I rambled so.  But am I becoming clear? Unschool 21:49, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On use of the term "late" 

message: See this Associated Press story for a reference. NatusRoma 21:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Middle name

message: This isn't a troll post.  I could have swore I heard Obama talking about how when he was younger he made a lot mistakes and ended up on the streets using drugs.  Is this true or did I dream him saying that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.35.15.107 (talk • contribs) .
:I certainly haven't seen any source to indicate that. NatusRoma 01:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In his autobiography, written in 1995, Obama talks about his drug use as a teen.  I haven't seen anything about him making a lot of mistakes or living on the streets.  He insists that he has not used any illegal drugs in more than 20 years, however. - Jersyko·talk 03:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wasn't Obama once a drug-using homeless person?

message: The article states...
"As evidence of both the appeal and intellect of Senator Obama on a national scale, former Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton enlisted Obama to join them in New Orleans"
As was pointed out earlier, too much of this article reads like a commercial for Obama. I would like to replace it with "appeal and standing" 
No objections within a week and I'll change it Zleitzen 28 Febuary 2006
:No need to wait, that's a reasonable change, in my view. - Jersyko·talk 02:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appeal and intellect 

message: It seems to me that the "Senate Career" section is getting a little too long to read, but I can't think of a great way to subdivide it.  Can anyone think of a good way?  My first suggestion would be to divide it into (1) Overview, (a 2-3 paragraph summary) (2) Policy positions and votes (stuff like the HOPE scholarship and the estate tax); and (3) Other events (stuff like the middle east trip and magazine profiles).  TheronJ 15:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a fine idea.  Is there precedent anywhere that could be a guide here? - Jersyko·talk 17:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer my own question, sort of, I noticed that both the Ted Kennedy and Bill Frist articles have sections devoted to discussing the Senators' views on the issues (Kennedy here and Frist here).  Perhaps now that Obama has a few votes and public statements on the issues under his belt, it would be appropriate to split off a new, similar subsection here. - Jersyko·talk 18:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Looks good.  Thanks for the work, HailFire. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subdividing "Senate Career"? 

message: To explain why I called this edit "POV" in this edit, Obama didn't "campaign to allow" anything.  Prayer by voluntary public shool groups is constitutionally permissible already per the First Amendment and the Supreme Court's interpretation of it.  It's already allowed.  Also, the use of the word "campaign" is overboard, as he merely made the statement that no one should feel threatened by voluntary prayer groups.  Hardly "campaigning" for them, if you ask me. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 14:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My recent edit