Talk:Theater am Kärntnertor

message: I am guessing that the name of this theater is formed on the following basis:
*"Kärnten" = the German word for Carinthia, a province of Austria
*"Kärntner" = adjective, "pertaining to Carinthia" (an unaccented vowel is dropped, much as in "Zürcher", "pertaining to Zürich")
*"Kärntnertor" = "Kärntner gate" (i.e., in the old Vienna city wall).  Perhaps the road running through this gate led towards Carinthia?
But I'm way too uncertain to put this in.  Can anyone help?  Opus33 16:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think I can answer my own question:  "Carinthian gate" appears repeatedly on the web as an English-language version, particular for older sources.  Opus33 19:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have the date when the Tor was demolished and a reference, it would make a good footnote. --Wetman 20:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: *"most prestigious" was deleted by someone with the edit summary "Hmm, let's just get rid of "most prestigious" for now. If someone finds a source for this surprising claim, it can go back in." Hardly a surprising claim; I think we can just assume that the Kaiserliches und Königliches Hoftheater zu Wien was "the most prestigious theatre in Vienna," until we have an alternative candidate. It would surely be an uphill climb to prove that a court theatre in any eighteenth-nineteenth century Central European city was not the most prestigious. --Wetman 06:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a lot of information available on this theatre - it is linked to many other WP articles or will be - and it will not be a problem to clarify it's importance. There were other theatres in Vienna but we can probably confirm that this was the largest one. If I have time I will try to contribute some info later. -- Kleinzach 08:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That will be great. This is presently little more than a stub: there are many premieres and debuts at the Kärntnertortheater besides Martha. --Wetman 09:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: "Die Burg", wie sie die Wiener nennen, ist die traditionsreichste, einst auch die bedeutenste, deutsche Sprechbühne. Die Bühne wurde 1776 durch Kaiser Joseph II. als "Hoftheater" gegründet, doch mit der Anweisung, ein "deutsches National-Theater" zu sein. Später nannte sie sich "Hof- und Nationaltheater", über dem Eingang steht "Kaiserlich-königliches Hofburgtheater" [translation on request]
This in fact was why I thought it was "surprising" when you nominated the Kärntnertortheater as most prestigious--my natural guess would have been the Burgtheater.  
So my judgment is that unless you find a reference source that says that the Kärntnertortheater was generally regarded as the most important in Vienna, we shouldn't be saying it.  Yours truly, Opus33 15:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your description and link to the Burgtheater, which supplemented the older Kärntnertortheater as Joseph II's all-German Hoftheater, will certainly broaden the article's context. Usually more information gives me a more balanced picture, rather than less, so I'll be particularly grateful. --Wetman 00:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Wetman.  I'm sorry, but I don't think you got my point.  You're doing original research, which is verboten on Wikipedia, so I'm reverting.  Sorry to quarrel with you, but the rules are the rules...  Opus33 17:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A matter of prestige

message: The coin's description currently contains these words: "… opening notes of his mentioned symphony"; that is incorrect. My reading of the scoreBeethoven, Symphony No. 9, Edition Eulenburg No. 411  suggests those notes are the baritone/cello notes at the beginning (bar 5) of the second Allegro assai section of the symphony's 4th movement — the choral theme which is introduced earlier in a rhythmic variation in the first Allegro assai section (bar 92, counting from the beginning of the movement); see also: Symphony No. 9 (Beethoven)#Fourth movement. I suggest to change the wording here and at Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (Austria)#Theater am Kärntnertor to something like "… opening notes of the choral theme from the 4th movement of his mentioned symphony". Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:37, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Michael Bednarek for catching that, I have already changed the two articles and I have also sent a mail to the Austrian Mint so they change their web site, which is also incorrect. Best regards, Miguel.mateo (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the Austrian Mint's description ("… die einleitenden Noten der 'Ode an die Freude'") is wrong. Ode an die Freude (= "Ode to Joy") is what I called the choral theme. Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what is written in English in the Austrian Mint Website "The reverse side of the coin shows the old Kärntnertor Theatre ("Theatre at the Carinthian Gate" which stood near the present Opera House until 1870). It was here that Beethoven's 9th symphony with the "Ode to Joy" was first publidly performed. The opening notes of the melody in the symphony itself and a cameo portrait of Beethoven complete the design." ... isn't that incorrect as you properly mentioned? Miguel.mateo (talk) 03:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Actually, I think it's clear now, they say "... The opening notes of the melody [Ode to Joy] in the symphony ..." not "... the opening notes of the symphony ...".  That tiny change in words must have been lost during the copy/edit process. Thanks for bringing this up! A mail to the Austria Mint asking for forgiveness is in place ;) Miguel.mateo (talk) 03:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Coin description

message: The use of the coin image in this article is a copyright infringement, see Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#Commemorative_coin_images. I hope Miguel.mateo will kindly volunteer to remove it now. --Kleinzach 04:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let the discussion finish first, if it is copyright infrigement, I will make myself the bot to remove them all. But even if what you're saying is right, that does not give you right to remove the image and the prose added in the articles. Miguel.mateo (talk) 04:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm asking you to remove it. Instead you are involved in about a dozen (how many in total?) simultaneous edit wars, see , ,  etc. --Kleinzach 05:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly this non-free coin image fails WP:NFC#Images and must be removed. There is nothing in the use of the coin image that adds to the reader's understanding or knowledge of the topic that is not conveyed by the prose. There is no critical commentary about the coin itself that relates to the topic, so it must go, until such time as this coin comes into the public domain. Sorry Miguel.mateo there is no story here to justify the use of a non-free image. ww2censor (talk) 16:07, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, the Austrian mint's web page says, "The content of these pages is subject to copyright. Any reproduction other than for private use (publication, duplication, distribution to third parties, printing in the media) is dependent on the written consent from the Austrian Mint."  This seems very, very clear, no?  So I would suggest to Miguel:  stop fighting the law and your fellow editors, get out your computer, and write a polite permission-request letter to the Austrian Mint.  Sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 16:56, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Miguel is claiming fair use under American law.  That is a right which doesn't need the copyright holder's permission. But we can only invoke it sparingly, hence the requirement that the image must add something significant to the topic of the article. It's for this talk page to decide whether how the building was represented on a coin is significant.  I would say if it was on mass-circulation banknote, that quite possibly would be significant.  But a postage stamp, or a specialist not-in-mass-circulation commemorative coin is harder to make a case for (though not necessarily impossible in some cases), as they are simply not such significant objects.  Jheald (talk) 22:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright infringement