Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 13

message: So, now that we've gone over the city names over and over again, the various things called "中央" seem to have falled through the cracks. Are we deciding to keep all of them as "Chuo" and not "Chūō"? I mean, I admit it might look kind of weird to have semi-macronned names like "Chūō, Tokyo" and "Chūō, Osaka", and I do understand the Train project argument that the non-macronned "Chuo Main Line", "Chuo-Sobu Line" are the official Anglicized names from the company or whatever. But that still leaves half a dozen other Chūō-ku in other cities, along with the Chuo Expressway. What's the consensus? LordAmeth 13:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see no solution to this problem holding a middle ground. The fact that Tokyo and other major cities stand out as exceptions against the current implementation of rules complicates everything.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  00:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd use macrons by default, because "Chūō" can be translated into the English word "central".  And it would be difficult to prove any extensive usage of "Chuo" with or without macrons, in the English language.  I already created one article called Yokosuka-Chūō Station WITH macrons.--Endroit 00:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I remember once seeing a bumper sticker that read "Yokosuka CHEW-OH!" In fact, there are two Google hits. So there's an alternative to the macrons (I'm joking!). Fg2 04:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chuo

message: I ported the English-language school IP notice for an IP address used by Shinjuku Yamabuki High School on Wikipedia-JA: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%88%A9%E7%94%A8%E8%80%85%E2%80%90%E4%BC%9A%E8%A9%B1:221.114.251.157
I would like for someone to translate the notice :) WhisperToMe 02:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked through about 300 vandal pages on jaWiki, but it doesn't seem that they are using such IP notices there yet, probably because AOL doesn't exist in Japan and thus they don't have such a big problem with single IPs there. Translating into English is one thing, but you'd be best to ask at chatsubo to see if someone will translate it into Japanese for you. I don't think they'll want to translate the part about contacting the school if there's problems, though. Wikipedia isn't exactly that well known in Japan.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? Whenever I go on at school, my students call out "Wikipediaや!" with enthusiasm. Dekimasu 04:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: AOL does exist in Japan, though I don't think they have as huge a problem with it as we do. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, I have never even heard of it here. And they didn't even bother to change the name to JOL. Dekimasu 04:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AOL is fairly big in Japan, and the "AOL" name is even used in "old Europe" (as populated by cheese-eating surrender monkeys and the like). I think there's not so much of a problem with vandalism in Japan as the percentage teens (of all ages) who are obnoxious twits is lower in Japan than in the more populous anglophone nations (though I can't immediately provide factual evidence for this). Plus Japanese kids don't use computers: they use phones, and writing "Eric is a fag" (in any language) requires an irritating number of thumbstrokes. -- Hoary 09:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it must be a regional thing, because there is never any hint of AOL in this area. And I like Japan just fine, but I don't find your lower percentage comment to be true either. The last comment is sure true... but it's never stopped me from editing Wikipedia from my cell. Dekimasu 10:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The notice has been translated :) WhisperToMe 01:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks WhisperToMe. I was getting worried this thread might get nominated for WP:LAME. Rhialto 01:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: School IP notice

message: I understand the macron debate. I personally feel the macrons make the English-language Wikipedia harder to use and overall less useful, but I also see the advantages. In particular, however, I note that a number of martial arts titles have been changed so that the main article is at -ryū rather than at -ryu (e.g. Isshin-ryū, Uechi Ryū. In my opinion, in the martial arts media, ryu is widely accepted and used; it's what's commonly seen in all the major martial arts magazines, for example; in the Yellow Pages ads; and on most English-language web pages. Right now a search on "isshin ryu" goes to the page Isshin-ryu which is a redirect page, but doesn't automatically redirect. 
So, IAW Romanisation 11 (which cites Sumo as an example), I'd like to suggest that "ryu" be considered sufficiently common that it does not need a macron. For evidence, pick up your phone book and look at the Karate schools under Martial Arts. JJL 18:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It all depends on context and commonality. If, in the English language, something is more well known in non-macronned form, then that's how it should be listed here (except in the rōmaji section of the Nihongo template used to introduce the term). Examples of this include Tokyo, Osaka, and many others. In fact, this is listed in the Manual of Style as an exception to the rule, so I don't know why people keep bringing this up over and over unless it's because they don't bother reading it. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems like the vast majority of the time a word is more widely used in the non-macronned form then the macronned form. Are you saying that if I find something much more common in the un-macronned form than the macronned form I can go ahead and change it to the un-macronned form without bringing it up for discussion? Jecowa 08:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, no, Jecowa. Your examples are a different discussion altogether (above). And Google is not necessarily a good way to determine commonality. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How is the Google test not a great way to determine commonality? The Google test is the first method given by the naming conflict guideline for identifying the most common names used for a subject. It says to do an advanced search, to search for only English language pages, and to exclude the term "Wikipedia" from the search. I forgot to do that last part though, so it should be un-macronned search and macronned search. The macronned form of Hokkaido is relatively rare. The ratio of the macronned form to the un-macronned form of Hokkaido is 1 to 1336. Jecowa 18:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I said it wasn't necessarily a good way to determine it. And I was referring to your bringing the Hokkaidō/Hokkaido discussion down here when it's being discussed elsewhere. Please keep the various discussions separate to avoid confusion. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for mentioning Hokkaido in the wrong place. By the way, when you said, "If, in the English language, something is more well known in non-macronned form, then that's how it should be listed here," did you say that in favor of "Ryu" or "Ryū?" I think it was okay for JJL to ask for permission to move the page first, so he could make sure before he made a possibly controversial change. Also, where else is Hokkaidō/Hokkaido being discussed? I don't see it here or on Talk:Hokkaidō. I'd like to join it. Jecowa 08:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, on Talk:Hokkaidō. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The reason I bring it up now is because some Karate pages were moved to the macronned form within the past week (e.g. Uechi Ryū on 12 Nov.). I'd like to move them back, but since macrons are the default I was looking to see if there was support for my contention that -ryu is, like Sumo, common and standard. JJL 14:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: "Sumo" (technically sumō) is well understood by native English speakers, even those who have never seen a match. However, I really doubt that many native speakers understand "-ryu / -ryū". I would be interested to see a survey: "Do you know the word sumo? Do you know the word ryu?" I do not have access to native English speakers though. Sure, martial arts is popular and there are various magazines. The use of either -ryū or -ryu becomes jargon, technical vocabulary for that context. It is not general and should not be expected to be well understood, if even at all, by ordinary speakers. Bendono 20:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that it could be considered jargon, but I do think that many people have heard or read about (something)-ryu from time to time. A Google news search on +ryu karate turns up a fair number of hits from newspapers; a search on ryu alone turns up more, including the character Ryu from the Street Fighter video games, but also false positives (e.g., the Korean name Ryu). The Ryu page here shows that the word has many appearances in English--in martial arts, manga and fantasy, and music. (I'm not sure those are all derived from the Japanese ryu.) It appears that way on the web and in print ads. So, while I agree that Sumo is better known, I think ryu is reasonably familiar, as it appears in numerous contexts and various media. JJL 21:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ryu" may be fairly well-known as a Street Fighter character, and in various other pop culture references. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a bastardization and misrepresentation of the original term. As I've written someplace else, "りゅ" is not a word at all, while　"りゅう" (ryuu or ryū) is. Depending on the context, it can refer to either a dragon　(竜) or a style or school (流), such as in karate. The fact that kids learning karate at their local strip mall might not care to learn anything about Japanese language or culture doesn't change the fact that "karate" and "ryu" are Japanese words, not English ones. I'll fully accept that karate, like karaoke and sushi has fully entered the mass consciousness of Western society; but "ryuu", in most contexts outside of video games and anime has not. In fact, I'd imagine that the vast majority of people who study other forms of budō, such as iaidō, kyūdō and kendō will be fully aware of the long vowels in ryuu and dou and would agree with me on this. The web, print ads, all of these sorts of things are of no significance in determining the accurate spelling of such terms. I suggest you look to scholarly works, or to any sensei of the Japanese/Okinawan tradition; they will surely agree that "do" and "ryu" are not accurate representations of the Japanese/Okinawan words. LordAmeth 20:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ryu vs. Ryū 

message: What is meant by "figures?" E.g. Historical figures, Modern figures. Does this term only refer to politicians, revolutionists, and mythological characters or does it include everyone? Jecowa 08:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A "figure" is any person. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  figures 

message: Ah, the lovely Talk:Hercule (Dragon Ball) debate involves two groups - One who prefers the name (in the original Japanese version) Mr. Satan, and one who prefers the U.S. dub name Hercule.
There have been two move requests from Hercule to Mr. Satan - One filed about a week after the first one failed.
WhisperToMe 22:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Hercule debate

message: There's a very curious discussion on-going at Talk:Asashoryu Akinori#Requested move, where this guideline is being quoted as if it overrides the general principle of common names, or indeed that its application would in any way justify the current article title.  Surely any sensible application of the naming conventions would conclude that wrestlers should be either at their shikona as it's actually used, or else at their actual, legal "real" names (if one is going to ignore convention, and appeal to "encyclopaedic accuracy" in the abstract).  No-one would ever use their "shikona first names" to disambiguate between Takanohana I and Takanohana II, and the current scheme just leads to tortuous piping to get a more reasonable style in article text (see the first article for an example of same).  These are not actual Japanese family and given names, and to insist on using them in article titles as if they were (in either classical or Westernised style) seems to me misguided.  Alai 23:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rikishi "names"