Talk:Tenebrae

message: The following text was incorrectly in Tenebrae (software):
:The Office of Tenebrae or Tenebræ is the name of prayer services conducted in the Catholic Church on Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday, in preparation for the celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus, or Easter.  The word means "shadows." It is also observed in the Anglican and Episcopal Churches as a single office during Holy Week, usually on the Wednesday of Holy Week.  The chief feature of this office is the successive extinguishing of candles until the church is completely dark.
:The Office of Tenebrae in the Episcopal Church
--Mrwojo 14:03, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Roman Catholic tradition (prior to the reform of the Holy Week services in, I think, 1956) the Mass of the Lord's Supper was held in the morning - for reasons (related to the Eucharistic fast) which no longer apply. Tenebrae was celebrated in the late afternoon and was the Matins of Good Friday, brought forward to the Thursday evening. If your church doesn't observe those traditions then the statement that Holy Communion is never given at Tenebrae doesn't apply. Alec.brady (talk) 10:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: From software article

message: I'm suggesting we might want to move this page from it's current namespace of "Tenebrae (service)" to the namespace "Tenebrae (liturgical)".  The term "service" is vague and does not denote the specifically religious subject of the article.  Not only would "Tenebrae (liturgical)" also make it clear that this is an article on a religious subject, it also follows the usual naming convention for other Christian liturgical terms.  For example, the Mass is Mass (liturgy) and octave is Octave (liturgical).  Dgf32 (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Move

message: Someone from ip 71.253.52.145 (since you dont have an account yet I can only ask questions here) added this, just removed by another editor:
...and it continues to be observed at the University of Notre Dame (and possibly other traditional Catholic churches),...
which makes me wonder if this is under some indult and whether indeed a few non-'schismatic' Catholics might still be able to observe tenebrae (I would love to find a loophole for the parish I work at!).   What are the conditions at ND? Sparafucil (talk) 01:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is also celebrated at St John Vianney Seminary, in the Archdiocese of Denver. I will change the article to reflect this, as there is no ref for it being defunct. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In my humble opinion, the statement that the liturgical celebration of this services is no longer part of the liturgy is not correct. The form and the time changed with the reform of the Holy Week ceremonies by Pope Pius XII, but the Book of hours indicates solemn matutins at Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Good Saturday. In Germany, these are called Karmetten.--Turris Davidica (talk) 10:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The German Wikipedia implicitly says Karmetten is celebrated in the morning: it says tht Karmetten is celebrated on Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, not on the eves of those days (the evenings of Wednesday, Thursday and Friday).  Perhaps, like the German Karmetten, the other cases mentioned above also refer to morning celebrations in daylight of the Liturgy of the Hours, not to anticipated celebrations after dark (= tenebrae), as was the custom, when, before Pius XII's change, Mass, even the Easter Vigil Mass was also anticipated to the mornings.  Lima (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Catholics may take part in them if they find some. This is not Holy Mass which is ruled by the ritual. Even if some ritual may have disappeared from the Ritual or from anywhere else, that does not lead to an acceptable form of devotion being illegalized.--91.34.251.64 (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: present status in Catholic churches

message: I'm unclear on Episcopal observances and whether they differ from Anglo-catholic.   The external link shows a Wednesday service identical to that of the Liber usualis, which suggests there is nothing particularly protestant about them.  In any case the header "Roman Catholic" ought to be "catholic" to reflect the lead paragraph, or perhaps even "traditional". Sparafucil (talk) 02:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Episcopalian" is a denomination.  "Anglo-Catholic" is not - it defines the practices of a subset of Episcopalians and Anglicans.  Episcopal and Anglo-Catholic observances might NOT differ.  Many Anglo-Catholics are Episcopalians.  The Church of St. Mary the Virgin, in NYCs Times Square, is called "The Cathedral of Anglo-Catholicism" and is an Episcopal Church. Carlo (talk) 04:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Episcopalian Tenebrae services are based on the Book of Occasional Services, which replaced the 1940 "Book of Offices" in 1979 and has been updated from time to time since then.  I don't know about Tenebrae in other Anglican churches, but would guess that it probably exists in at least some of them.--Bhuck (talk) 11:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Anglican practices

message: Thanks you for your response and, yes, that was a great quote!
I will be sure to contact Vanguard Press, however, John Morrow has announced that they are planning a Colletta book for 2010 or 2011. Of course it won't be nearly as complete in either biographical details, number of assembled quotes or subject photographs as mine. And with John Morrow, you never know, he may be more interested in publishing a book dealing with controversies than one of substance.
Franklin222 (talk) 03:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vince Colletta 

message: In many mystical circles, tenebrae, Latin for darkness, is used to refer to what St. John of the Cross referred to as the Dark Night of the Soul. This is a period understood by many in many different ways, but it is basically a time when one must face the darkness within himself, understand it, and overcome it. Those who tread a Shamanic Path refer to this as the Shaman's Death. There are many periods of this in one's Spiritual growth, and those who come out on the positive side of it are the Spiritual giants, whether they are known or not.
Charles Henry Kropf, MSS  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.164.121 (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tenebrae 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Tenebrae. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110714031444/http://www.mapc.com/html/03_worship/PDF/2008-03-21b-GF-Tenebrae.pdf to http://www.mapc.com/html/03_worship/PDF/2008-03-21b-GF-Tenebrae.pdf
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Does (or: did) a service called "Tenebrae" exist in Eastern Catholic Churches? --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:51, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:   Tenebrae in Eastern Catholic Churches 

message: In A Modern Catholic Dictionary John Hardon defines Tenebrae as: "The public singing of part of the Divine Office, on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday evenings of Holy Week, anticipating Matins and Lauds of Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday. A custom that went back centuries, it acquired the name because of the mourning ritual surrounding the ceremony, which included a triangular stand with fifteen candles. These were put out one by one until, after the last candle was extinguished, a prayer was said in darkness, one candle was lighted, and the assembly dispersed in silence."
In The Catholic Encyclopedia Herbert Thurston says: "Tenebræ is the name given to the service of Matins and Lauds belonging to the last three days of Holy Week. This service ... is to be anticipated and it should be sung shortly after Compline ... about three p.m. on the eve of the day to which it belongs. ... Lauds follow immediately on Matins, which in this occasion terminate with the close of day".
Thus anticipation to the previous day of the Matins and Lauds of Thursday, Friday and Saturday is part of the specification of the Tenebrae service.  Service books (of pre-Pius XII times), such as Officium Hebdomadae Sanctae (Venice 1765), p. 105, also insist on the anticipation to the previous day. "With the prohibition of the anticipation of Matins and Lauds, the practice was suppressed following the Holy Week reforms" (James Monti, The Week of Salvation);  "The evening service of Tenebrae, in which the Matins and Lauds of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday were chanted on the preceding evenings, is suppressed" (Frederick McManus, The Rites of Holy Week in the Extraordinary Form); cf. Peter M.J. Stravinskas, The Catholic Answer Book, p. 227.
No official book of the Catholic liturgy now speaks of extinguishing candles in the course of the (morning) recitation of Matins and Lauds of Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, even in the 1961 ("extraordinary") form. Not even the 1988 document Paschalis solemnitatis of the Congregation for Divine Worship, which recommends "communal celebration of the Office of Readings and Morning Prayer on Good Friday and Holy Saturday", an Office that it says was formerly called "Tenebrae".  Lúnasa (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition (Catholic Church use) 

message: I do not understand the past tense "was" in the first sentence of this article. 
There is nothing 'past tense' about Tenebrae. It is still observed in numerous churches around the world, including normal, mainstream, Roman Catholic churches, not schismatics or 'indult' of any kind. I could give a list of churches that celebrate Tenebrae right here in New York. The article itself, once it moves past the badly written and confusing preface, is quite accurate. If the Roman Catholic church abridged the service and suggested or demanded celebrating it on the morning of the day instead of the evening of the day before, that is a change, not an abolition of the service itself. 
In New York Anglican churches tend to celebrate an abbreviated form of Tenebrae, for Maundy Thursday, on Wednesday evening. So do Latin Mass Catholic parishes. Other Catholic churches tend to celebrate one or all three on the morning of the day itself--one normal, mainstream Catholic church in Morningside Heights chants tenebrae for Good Friday and Holy Saturday on the morning of those days--with the gradual extinguishing of candles (which is rather pointless at ten o'clock in the morning, but...) 
Thus it does not make sense for the first sentence of this article to read "Tenebrae was" as if the thing had been formally abolished or as if nobody observed it today. 
Nor does the second sentence of this article make any sense:
"In the 21st century the term is in practice applied also to a Holy Week evening service other than of matins and lauds accompanied by gradual extinguishing of candles or even to a service at other times of day commemorating the Passion of Jesus."
Such a passive voice sentence is more confusing that it's worth. There may well be people who do things other than matins and lauds and call them 'tenebrae', but who are they? All the churches I know that celebrate something they call tenebrae are indeed celebrating tenebrae: matins and lauds, whether according to the old or the new breviary, whether in full or abridged.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.178 (talk) 21:34, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is, not was