Talk:Human rights in Cuba

message: In order to be less POV, the section should precise how you can go out of Cuba, which needs some papers (basically, invitations from strangers, familly...) but isn't impossible at all.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arnsy (talk • contribs) 14:53, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Emigration

message: I read through it quickly, and failed to find any obviously biased statements. Where are they, if they really are biased, why are they not just reformulated? Or can we remove the POV warning? --Regebro 21:10, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The following quote is the best I have ever read in response to the absolutely nonsensical assertion that Cuba has a "track record of success in certain areas":  "Wherever there is a jackboot stepping on a human face, there will be a well-heeled Western liberal there to assure us that the face enjoys free health care and 100% literacy."     Another ridiculous assertion from the above poster is the assertion that the Black Book of Communism has been thorougly debunked.  Sorry, but that is a falsehood, unless of course by debunked you mean the outcry from communists "academics" wbo don't like the fact that a thorougly-documented work of scholarship has laid bare the horrors of communism for all to see.  And exactly what "context" can explain away the fact a legitimate election has not been held in Cuba in over a half a century?  The very fact that Raul Castro "succeeded" his brother tells you all you need to know.  And there is a vast difference between penal labor and "forced labor" and your attempts to assert otherwise are pathetic.  Being sentenced to hard labor in the United States is not even remotely the same as being sent to a communist gulag or laogai.  There is a reason Cuba is portrayed as a vast gulag: it is one.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.154.101 (talk) 15:54, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV? 

message: People don't seem to understand that 'human rights' are a capitalist charade, what Cuba is doing is not 'human rights abuses' but class struggle! Who says capitalist scum have rights? NEXT IN THE FIRING SQUAD I SAY!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.39.158 (talk) 12:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is pretty obvious that the commenter is trying to parody those who are defending Castro.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.154.101 (talk) 16:04, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalist Human rights? 

message: I find it pretty strange that, in an article about human rights in Cuba, no mention is made of the Bay of Pigs attack by the US. I mean, it's one of the things, along with the embargo, that made Castro more paranoid and thus triggered more repression from the regime.
Yes, its all the U.S.'s fault. (Sarcasim intended). --Tenric 20:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, it is all the US's fault (sarcasm also intended).  Because an "embargo" by the US (note I didn't mention any other countries)is the only reason that Cuba is a hellhole.  It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Castro is a communist dictator that has run Cuba into the ground, can it?  I get so sick and tired of people who try and claim that Cuba's atrocious human rights record is somehow the fault of the US.  By the way, the US didn't attack Cuba during the Bay of Pigs. In fact, the Bay of Pigs failed because the US support promised by Kennedy didn't materialize, thus the people of Cuba have been consigned to living as slaves for past five decades.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.154.101 (talk) 16:00, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We actually do hold partial responsibility. We made Cuba a dictatorship when we stole it from its Spanish conquerors and added it to our colonial holdings (along with Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.). If we had given Cuba a democratic government rather than a fascist one its oppressed people would never have turned to communism. Communism only ever preys on the oppressed. --TheSapient  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.10.53.28 (talk) 22:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bay of Pigs anyone? 

message: The article seems to cover only human rights abuses between 1959 and the present.  Does this imply that there were no human rights abuses in Cuba before 1959?  The first sentence says that since Castro came to power, there have been allegations of human rights abuses.  Is this intended to mean that there were no such allegations before he came to power?  That's what it appears to mean, and yet I don't remember Batista being a model democrat... -86.134.55.144 19:34, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree. Why has this not been done, yet? Also why is there no section giving the other side of the story, i.e. the justifications and explanations for why Cuba feels it must restrict certain democratic freedoms such as the fact that the US/CIA has been meddling and trying to sabotague the society since the revolution? And the arguments about what yard stick to use to evaluate human rights (there are more than one, such as the economic one). This would give the article some balance and make it at least appear more nuetral. Right now it reads like a pro-US anti-Cuba propganda piece. 171.65.82.242 (talk) 21:57, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba before 1959

message: There is no word "Censorship" in the article. 
Xx236 10:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Censorship 

message: What about free elections in Cuba? Do they exists, as made to believe in Cuba?
14:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a can of worms.  Your first question cannot be answered without agreement to the definition of  'free'.  This is commonly a source of disagreement in discussions about Cuban elections.  Arguments go like this:  
#How can elections be 'free' without freedom of speech for campaigning?  
#Or, How can election campaigning be 'free' when (corporate) money (which buys a bigger bullhorn) has a legal equality with human speech?  
BruceHallman 19:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elections 

message: Unfortunately, this article suffers from systemic political bias and is not written from a neutral point of view.  It is not possible to quickly itemize all the examples of this bias, but for instance, the first paragraph fails to acknowledge that human rights in Cuba exist in the context of of a socialist society, and the article in general appears to be written from a capitalistic point of view as if the capitalistic point of view is an absolute universal baseline of values.  Why is article 62 given bias but not "Article 53: Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society. The law regulated the exercise of those freedoms."?  BruceHallman 16:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: '...the article in general appears to be written from a capitalistic point of view as if the capitalistic point of view is an absolute universal baseline of values Give me a break. Stop conflating capitalism and liberalism. Liberalism refers to the belief that government should aim to preserve individual rights, including speech, assembly, movement, and press. Capitalism refers to a form of economic organization based on commodity production and private ownership of the means of production. Human rights is a liberal concept. The subject matter here is not directly related to capitalism or socialism. 172 | Talk 11:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Go for it. I say every time he utters pseudo-philosophical bullshit like "human rights in Cuba exist in the context of of a socialist society," make an edit he finds politically unpalatable. It can be kind of like the logic of a drinking game. 172 | Talk 12:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dude, thats one KICK ASS DRINKIN GAME! :) Torturous Devastating Cudgel 00:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: There is clearly a relationship. No one can doubt that the institutionalization of private property is a necessary condition for a liberal political system. Still, the subject is very complicated, and I'm sure that way past the foreseeable future there will still be graduate seminars in political theory debating the exact nature of the relationship between capitalism and liberal democracy. But that's neither here nor there. The reason I felt compelled to distinguish the terms was because of my sneaking suspicion that Bruce did not really understand the relationship, but was advancing a crude Marxist "base determines superstructure" argument. 172 | Talk 16:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of me in the third person and calling me names is not constructive.  If you would like to collaborate with me (and other editors) please let us know.  BruceHallman 17:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  neutrality dispute 

message: Wikipedia usually states the perspective of the main issue first, and then states the perspective of the critiques. This article contains the U.S. governments, Miami Cubans, and others, usually conservatives’ perspective first, and throughout most of the article. I humbly suggest the following addition of the Cuban government’s perspective first to serve as the introduction of the article: 
Cuba’s human rights values stem from the Vienna Declaration and Program of Action, adopted at the World Conference on Human Rights in 1993. According to Cuban statements on human rights recognizes the “universal, indivisible, interdependent and interrelated character of all human rights.” At the same time, Cuba understands that no single model of “political, economic, social and cultural” exists. Cuba holds as fact that “human rights, civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights, including the right to development, should be treated in a global form, in a fair and equal way, in an equal footing and giving the same importance to all” of the different rights. Cuba also understands the need for “respect for national and regional particularities, as well as for the diverse historical, cultural and religious heritages.” Cuba advocates all three generations of Human Rights. 
Moreover, “Cuba promotes and defends the principles of objectivity, impartiality and non selectivity in the treatment of issues related to human rights, and the refusal to use them with political dominance purposes.” On the other hand, “Cuba rejects the growing trend of countries in the North,” which set themselves “up as judges and censors of all that happens in countries in the South.” These countries in the North “hide the countless human rights violations that take place in their own territories plus others derived from the unjust international order they are imposing in their own benefit.”  
Cuba has contributed “Draft Resolutions” to several human right documents. Cuba supports and “contributes with its positions and initiatives, to the progressive development of the international system of promotion and protection of all human rights for all.” Many developing countries support and imitate Cuban human rights policies. Cuba, and Cuban citizens, has had their human rights violated by the United States for over one hundred years. The first sixty years as neo-colony, followed by a half century of “low intensity war” by which thousands of Cubans have died. 
The United States government, Miami Cuban emigrants, and others, usually conservatives decry the Cuban government and its socialist Constitution because it violates the human rights of its citizens. Since 1851, the United States government has condemned the Cuban political system under Spanish rule. When the United States neo-colonized Cuba in 1898, criticism shifted from the government to the people of Cuba, especially the color people. United States government criticism changed again in 1959, and has continued to the present. [Cantón Navarro, José. (1996). Historia de Cuba. La Habana, Cuba: SI-MAR S. A. ISBN: 959-7054-12-4].   
The difficulty in understanding Cuba’s human rights policies objectively comes from a prolific 47-year negative propaganda campaign funded by the United States, the human rights values of the observing nation or individual, and that Cuba’s different political-economic system is foreign to the capitalist social structures. Unless one places, Cuban human rights within a historical, cultural, socio-psychological, political-economical context [Pollis, A. and Schwab, P. eds. (2000). Human Rights: New Perspectives, New Realities. Boulder, CO. Publication: Lynne Rienner. ISBN: 1-55587-979-9]  one cannot possibly understand the present day Cuban three generations of human rights’ policies. Cuba’s distinctive social, political, economical, and cultural structures and procedures in many cases do not have a corresponding structures or functions in a capitalist society. This poses a problem explaining Cuba to someone unfamiliar with socialism. In other words, many human right goals carried out in Cuba could not occur in a capitalist nation, and vice-versa, making analogies difficult. Finally, nations that support universal human rights do recognize that each nation is different and value judgments enter into the decision of which human rights take precedent over others.[ Pollis, A. and Schwab, P. eds. (2000). Human Rights: New Perspectives, New Realities. Boulder, CO. Publication: Lynne Rienner. ISBN: 1-55587-979-9]. 
Daniel 
Oneofshibumi 04:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow.  --TJive 05:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fontova is an admitted historical revisionist -- he believes that the "true story" has been obscured by the communist-sympathizers in the US government! In short he is an idiot. Anyhow I like the original post in this section. Cuba's POV on this is not really included in the article. The book "The Cuban Exile Movement" by Hernando Calvo and Katlijn Declercq shows very clearly that many human rights campaigns against Cuba have been historically bankrolled by the far-right exile community (many members of whom have gone from being human rights violators themselves, such as the Abdala terrorist group, to being folks that have put down their guns and instead are now banging the drum of "Cuban Human Rights" -- mind you, these are terrorist groups that have shown blatant contempt for civilians: the Alpha 66, Omega 7, and CORU attacks on Cuba and on American citizens are nothing if not blatant acts of terrorism in violation of human rights... but sure, I suppose these folks in Miami have a lot to tell us about human rights abusers... in Cuba!). It lists all the groups known to have received very large donations from these millionare white-Cuban exiles (again, many of whom have terrorist backgrounds that make them egregious human rights abusers themselves). I suggest y'all read the book I'm talking about, it features interviews in which many of the exiles and human rights activists outright admit to this stuff (not to mention extensive citations from all over the place, with enough balance to feature citations of Alvaro Vargas Llosa and other "right wing" or "anti-Castro" sources). Also, btw, I just added a section to the article detailing the hypocrisy the US is accused of due to their resolutions on Cuban human rights (in light of their support of severe human rights abusers in the governments of Guatemala, El Salvador, and currently Colombia). This is a critique of the US that has been raised not only by Cuba but also Noam Chomsky and even by some anti-Castro exiles who admit that Cuba is criticized so often for human rights because the Cuban government is "stubborn" and not as tactful as, say, the Colombian or Israeli governments (who find ways to "negotiate" a wink and nod towards their abuses from others at the UN). 96.246.39.61 (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, and while we are at it, let's make sure we present Kim Jong Il's point of view on the article concerning North Korea's human rights abuses, Pol Pot's point of view concerning the millions he killed in Cambodia, etc.  When you say "Cuba's point of view", you actually mean "Castro's point of view" because the people of Cuba, during Castro's regime,  have NEVER been able to vote in legitimate elections in order to choose those who represent them.  I guess more than 50 years without an election is just a figment of the "anti-Castro right-wingers" imagination too, right?  The fact that Cubans have no right to a trial by jury, freedom of speech, assembly, the press, etc. etc. is just something completely made up by "anti-Castro" forces as well, right? As are the imprisonment and execution of thousands of dissidents under Castro. Give me a freakin break.  But by far the most hilarious and pathetic part of the comment directly above this one is the fact that the commenter dismisses Fontova as a historical revisionist and then actually puts forth, no I am not making this up, Noam Chomsky as a supposedly unbiased, dispassionate commenter. You know, the above comment, in its ridiculous attempts to explain away or debunk the literally thousands of stories of Cuban humans rights abuses, sounds just like Chomsky and his pathetic attempts to claim the West invented the the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge in the 1970s.  Yeah, guess who ended up being right on that issue.  HINT: It wasn't Noam Chomsky.  Sorry but Castro's crimes are just too numerous and well-documented to attempt to explain away as lies perpetrated by "right-wing ant-Castroites".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.154.101 (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba’s Point of View

message: There is still much work to be done on this article before the Neutrality tag should be removed. At present I contest the article's neutrality for many reasons. Not least the age old problem of referring to incidents from the distance past used as examples of the present. Rather like saying "the US discrimates againsts African-Americans and it is illegal for them to sit at the front of a bus". If you get my drift. Cuba changes at the same rate as any other developing country.--Zleitzen 17:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Failure to reflect the Communist Party line does not make an article POV. Argyriou 07:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Failure to adhere to wikipedia citing policies and the inclusion of original research is against policy. Who said anything about "the Communist Party line"? Actually on that point, failure to include an opposing point of view would make the article "POV" but that is not relevant to my points above. See my latest sections  Freedom of expression and Acts of repudiation sections for guides to how to present material and follow WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:POV policy here. --Zleitzen 13:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality Tag

message: Please site the reasons for the inclusion of this tag. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See above.--Zleitzen 17:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fact Tag

message: Here's what's going to happen. I'll be removing a paragraph a week unless users provide international sources justifying their inclusion. And simultaneously inserting material directly sourced to Amnesty. This page has been in the doldrums for too long. --Zleitzen 15:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amnesty is not the only organization that comments on Human Rights abuses. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Give me an idea of which groups you believe are not acceptable sources? I'd be interested to read your parameters. My parameters are that sources from private and public interest groups from a declared "enemy state" (one whose methods of communication and propoganda concerning Cuba are self declared and well documented) should be attributed accordingly - If used at all - Given that there are plenty of statements about Cuba from international groups - UN, OAS etc.--Zleitzen 19:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why not Rand? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Please provide the correct quotes from the source itself and attribute it to Rand. I'll knock up another section dealing with the alleged repression of journos, and so on, taken from Amnesty, to give users another example of how to present such material when I have a moment later. --Zleitzen 19:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing material

message: The article currently says:
"every citizen must carry an Identity Card. This passport-like I.D. includes a complete personal history, showing present and past addresses, work history, marital status, and number of children. Castro's critics cite this as a form of oppression."
1) The ID cards are platicised photocards, not passport-like.  
2) I'll check, but I don't think they carry that sort of detail.  
3) ID cards are required by many countries - are they commonly cited as a form of opression ? 
-- Beardo 17:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's soemthing on my list to investigate in cleaning up this page. You'd know a lot more about the cards than me, Beardo and I can't find anything about it, let alone anyone who "cites this as a form of oppression" - although I'm sure people do. Unless we can find notable sources that do cite it as oppression then it'll face the chop.--Zleitzen 00:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The ID cards for under-16s are still small booklets, which therefore show the child's history - but I don't see that as particularly relevant.  -- Beardo 03:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ID cards 

message: This section needs to mention the Cuban Adjustment Act.
The article says that 1.2 million Cubans left for the US between 1959 and 1993, and contains a link to a US census page which, as far as I can see doesn't mention numbers. It is not clear if that is supposed to include the undocumented number who left Cuba but never got to the US. http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/23.pdf says that there in 2004 there were 1.44 million in the US who identify as Cubans - 912,686 born outside the US, but that includes those who moved before 1959, as well as after 1993.  -- Beardo 18:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I note that the main Cuba article refers to 1 million leaving including all other countries. -- Beardo 16:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe this dispute has been doing the rounds for some time. I may spend a moment gathering various sources - so a reliable figure can be presented on the numerous pages which mention this, no doubt they all carry different figures.--Zleitzen 16:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emigration 

message: Would a section on Cuba's CDRs (Committees for Defense of the Revolution) be appropriate here? The CDRs being a primary system to report statements counter to the revolution to local authorities seem to belong in this entry as the committees themselves could be considered grave violators of human rights. Adding the entry in an unbiased manner would be sticky however. There is of course an entry on Wikipedia already concerning the CDRs, perhaps a link? An article on Human Rights in Cuba without mentioning the practices of the CDRs seems lacking. Opinions? Options?
:The article does mention the CDR's - in the Acts of repudiation section, detailing the allegations of involvement in beatings etc. Beyond that; reporting statements counter to the revolution is not really viewed as a human rights issue by international human rights groups. Anymore than US citizens reporting suspicious behaviour to Homeland security authorities etc.--Zleitzen 20:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should there be an entry regarding CDRs in this article? 

message: I've removed this paragraph to talk.    
The highest estimates are given by R.J. Rummel, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Hawaii. He gives the number of 73,000 as the mid-point estimate of victims of the alleged democide by the Castro administration. His low and high estimates are 35,000 and 141,000 respectively.  
What is Rummel considering here? The source isn't clear. Are we including wars? Migration casualties? And so on. The figures are extraordinary and bear no relation to other academic studies. In fact the source seems to be citing various accounts such as "Thomas" (I presume he means Hugh Thomas, the chief English language historian on Cuba) whom I guarantee makes no such claims - a page number would be helpful for me to check. Could Ultramarine clarify what that table in the source signifies, and how the figures given in our article 73,000, 35,000 and 141,000 relate to the table (which also isn't clear). --Zleitzen 08:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rummel has published an academic books, citing numerous sources. Cite academic criticism if disagree.Ultramarine 12:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, that isn't an answer. What is Rummel considering here? What is he attributing these deaths to?--Zleitzen 12:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He clearly lists his sources.Ultramarine 12:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try again, what is Rummel considering here? What is he attributing these deaths to? If you are confident of your edit then surely you would be able to answer this question.  --Zleitzen 12:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is his lists of sources  which he mentions here  when he calculates his estimates. Regarding the definition of democide, see the article or his books.Ultramarine 12:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, we have a better overview of the sources which we can look into later, and this "democide" definition will have to wait as well. But where do the figures 73,000, 35,000 and 141,000 presented on our page come from. I can't see them on the little table in the source. --Zleitzen 12:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Line 848.Ultramarine 12:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Or swimming or killed by the military trying to escape. As states in his notes, this is based on estimates by other researchers of how many have died compared to those that have managed to escape.Ultramarine 13:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RJ Rummel

message: I have deleted the first sentence of the "Polical Persecution" section..
: "Various estimates have been made to ascertain the number of politcal executions carried out on behalf of the Cuban Government in Cuba since the revolution. A variety of sources show that there were about 550 executions"
..which was effectively repeated immediately below.
1Z 22:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundant sentence 

message: "The Cuban Healthcare is one of the best system in america and the world."
Not only is this statement unsourced, it is obviously an opinion and not an objective fact.  On top of all this it isn't even particularly well written so it's sloppy as well.  Basically this sentence is everything that a wiki should not be so I'm removing it.
SBoyce 17:53, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unsourced it was, and probably a bit coloquial (it wasn't me BTW), but Cuba's healthcare system ranks with the ones from the so-called Western World and not with the rest of the Americas. The latest repost I was able to find was this one (http://www.who.int/whr/2004/annex/topic/en/annex_member_en.pdf), where in both infant and adult mortalility Cuba is the the Tier A, joined by Canada and the USA. The WHO has many resources, unfortunatlye they hae stopped putting them in easy to see rankings, but is someone has enough patiente it's all there. Cuba's healthcare is one of the best in the Americas easily. and one of the few were people from all over the world go to get treated (eyes and fisioterapy are common in Europe). --Bellum sine bello 19:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that supposed to be an actual opinion or are you just venting? We should drop indicators from the WHO because, acoding to you, Cuba provides falsa data and doesn't have basic drugs? That's rich, quite NPOV.--Bellum sine bello 14:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Your link points to the WP article. In any event this is a discussion with a dead-end: there are articles with a different view than the one you quote(and bear in mind that that quote can be applied to many hospitals in richer countries BTW, unless it's systemic (not saying that they would be  "better" than yours, but that's a judgement call), and the official stats are dismissed because they are said to be manipulated and falsified. Also falsified are apparently the death registries in the entire island, unless Cuban inhabitants are genetically so resilient that they manage to live longer and die less without healthcare than everyone else in the world. So, to sum it up, in this article we should drop official stats and base the description of Cuba's healtcare on press accounts (but not all of them, only those deemed "good" enough that reflect the "known" truth). Seems like a vicious cycle to me, but what do I know?--Bellum sine bello 17:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Healthcare deficiencies and low medicine supplies are much the result of the US embargo as well as the embargo's effect on the Cuban economy. The embargo has been faulted and deemed "inhumane" by numerous human rights and trade groups for this reason among others. Effects of the blockade should not be included in this article. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 01:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Unsourced, Non-NPOV Statement 

message: :Image:Time-magazine-machado.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Time-magazine-machado.jpg

message: This thing needs massive clean-up; it looks like a laundry list of various observations that shed no light whatsoever on the "debate" mentioned in the opening sentence. For example, "Educational and cultural policy is based on Marxist ideology by law, and The Code for Children, Youth and Family states that a parent who teaches ideas contrary to communism can be sentenced to three years in prison." Okay? Where is the evidence that this has been identified as a "human rights" issue or has sparked any debate? People in various places can be arrested for all sorts of things. I'm of the opinion that Americans are thrown in jail for all sorts of harmless offenses regarding drugs and sexuality, but I couldn't just list these in an article about "human rights" without some sort of qualification. Either the connection between these observations and "human rights" concerns needs to be elucidated, or the observations need to be removed entirely. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:11, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't the only original-research issue with the page. Just look at some of the citations outside of those coming from human rights groups -- highly dubious. For instance the article should not quote, as it currently does, the CANF's "estimate" of how many people have been "executed" by the Castro government, as the CANF is the furthest possible thing from a reliable source on this matter. We should only be looking at sources such as reports by human rights groups, and also taking into account the possible bias of several of these groups given the large recorded donations they've received from the CANF, the NED, and other rabidly anti-Castro organizations. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 01:51, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is a big ball of original research 

message: This article does need revising completely, it makes assumptions based on concepts alien to the capitalist society. One example of this, it consistently mentions that the private sector are not allowed to do this or that...note, there is no (or very little) private sector; the idea is so that everyone has the same right. Additionally, much of the evidence presented is outdated, many references made to the 60s and not to the year 2008, at least. Finally, where is the evidence for all these claims? 
One point, the blockade (or the US. embargo) actively hinders any country that wants to deal with Cuba, meaning that Cuba does not have access to free trade and therefore what little it has, it has to be divided evenly amongst everyone. It is also worth noting that there is no one dying of starvation, the crime rate resulting in death is almost non existent, everyone can afford medical treatment (state run), every one has free education, every one has the basic food basket; can this be said of other developed countries in the north or Europe?
I have been on a culture study in Cuba for a year and it is in my opinion that this article is out of context.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.97.21 (talk) 01:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agreement with the last entry 

message: Плохо обснована, не объективна. Советую удалить!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Лев Фернанд (talk • contribs) 15:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Предложение об удалении статьи 

message: From both ends of the political spectrum there seems to be much desire to alter this article to suit user's political agenda, however I would like to point out that political POV has no relevance on Wikipedia, or Academics in general. What is this, Conservapedia? I recommend that those editing this article mature a little. I'm pro-Cuba however I realize that the negative aspects of Cuba's society must be recognized. This does not mean that it's positive aspects be ignored. For this article, sources are more important than ever, so I believe anything on this article not sourced should be deleted. Is that a reasonable request? --Mike Oosting (talk) 04:14, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For this article, sources are more important than ever - No, they are exactly as important as for other articles, and there is no reason to treat this article differently from others. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed, however just suggesting how to clean up this article as it is very biased, with most statements based on opinion instead of fact. --Mike Oosting (talk) 04:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You take one statement that you think is based on opinion, and either fix it so it's not, or add  tags or discuss it on the talk page. And then when that issue is done, you find the next statement you think is based on opinion, and so on. Start from the top. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  politics aren't relevant here  

message: Find one example of a tortured persion at Cuba the last 20 years! Torture is banned by Cuban law. It have been since the early 1960s The torture under Fulgencio Batista was a main argument for the revolution! Find other sources th an newspapers from the West - especially in the USA! I've found an article in New York Times where it stays about that the US government pays journalists all over the world to pay non-true articles. I'm sure that Cubans aren't being tortured on Cuba. But I know that the USA torture Cubans and pay Cuban dissidents to do terror on Cuba! Between 1959 and 2007, nearly 3500 people (can't remember the exact number) have been murdered by dissidents that have been sent to Cuba by the USA. And that's what the USA call "political prisoners"!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.168.251 (talk) 14:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed -- allegations of torture are dubious at best. Really, we need to at least qualify these allegations as at most, torture in Cuba has existed on a very limited basis, with only a few allegations (mostly uncorroborated), and clearly on a level far below the widespread (and actually documented) torture that has occurred in many other (mostly US-client) states in the region, such as close US allies Colombia, Honduras, and Mexico, and historically in states of US allies such as El Salvador, Chile, and Argentina. The few uncorroborated quotes on the page that purport to "exemplify" torture should not be included, as they are just that: uncorroborated quotes from a few individuals. Torture in Cuba is, as far as I know, limited to allegations that Armando Vallardes was "tortured" because he was supposedly deprived of medicine and a wheelchair, when it turned out his claims to being permanently confined to a wheelchair were fraudulent (as, on his release from Cuba, he skipped off the plane in perfectly good health, leaving the "human rights" activists in the receiving audience stunned at having been defrauded by the claims that they were working to free a "paraplegic poet"). In general the page is highly biased against Cuba -- allegations are over the top, and aside from prisoners of conscience, all other "human rights abuses" alleged here are uncorroborated and clearly not large-scale episodes -- especially allegations relating to torture and supposed "extrajudicial" executions. We should balance the page -- we should, for instance, mention and cite the document that was leaked from the US interests section ten or so years ago, where US officials there complained that evidence of "persecution" among those claiming political refugee status was very low and that most supposed "political refugees" were (in the eyes of these US officials of the US Interests Section) really only economic refugees attempting to flee the economic conditions on the island -- this document complained that the US state department was attempting to make a "business" out of becoming a "dissident," leading to unsubstantiated allegations of political "persecution" by people who simply wanted a way out of the economic troubles of the island and had in fact not experiened persection (and in many cases had never even participated in dissident activities). I can find and cite this document and commentary on it. The page also could note that the human rights situation in Cuba, while problematic, is in terms of urgency a far cry from the human rights "crises" of the region, as the only large-scale issue in Cuba is the problem with prisoners of conscience (whose status as "independent" dissidents is questioned anyhow in light of the funds received by many of them from the NED and Miami groups), while in contrast, there have been forced disappearances in Colombia, Honduras, and Haiti in recent years, mass forced displacements in Colombia, and many (verifiable) cases of torture in these US-client states. The issue with "prisoners of conscience" in Cuba, while important, is not nearly the same sort of human rights crisis as what's been happening for years in those countries. I mean, even the USA has come in for allegations of serious human rights abuses as part of the "war on terror" -- in fact, just about all verifiable cases of torture in Cuba that I can think of, have happened at Guantanamo Bay at the hands of the US government (btw since Guantanamo is in Cuba, maybe this should be mentioned).  173.3.41.6 (talk) 01:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Torture 

message: The title for the first section is 'Communism'. However, that isn't a good title for the article so could someone change it? Also Cuba existed before Castro came to power, and there were human rights violations back then too, so someone should also add those. 
Czarcalvinsk (talk) 19:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The history of pre-Castro human rights abuses is accounted for in the article. It takes up a small portion because A: it is not the modern, contemporary government, and B: the "human rights" movement actually surfaced mostly in the 70s, and although the Batista/Machado/Spanish governments were guilty of mass human rights abuses by the modern standard (much moreso than the Castro government), the fact is that they weren't really referred to as "human rights" abuses back then, nor was there a "human rights" movement to protest them. In light of the fact that the abuses under Castro pale in comparison to, for instance, those of the Batista years, the article includes a section about Batista and other pre-Castro governments, but like I said, it's limited for the reasons I just gave. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 02:52, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That point is true, but Communism still makes no sense as a title. It should be something like: Post-revolutionary Human Rights. Czarcalvinsk (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 06:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Communism 

message: The phrase "El Paredón" should not be associated with the alleged extrajudicial executions, as the phrase refers more to the "revolutionary trials" where the worst of Batista's policemen along with proven CIA agents were executed immediately after the revolution's triumph -- those executions, often accompanied by crowds chanting the phrase "Al paredón" ("To the wall"), were hardly "extrajudicial" as they not only involved trials with extensive evidence presented in each case, but the trials were also were televised. Meanwhile, the allegations of "extrajudicial" executions, such as the one Raul Castro was accused of carrying out in the early years, are unrelated to the public executions associated with the phrase "Paredón."  I'm going to just remove the reference to the phrase, and keep the general statement that Cuba has been accused of extrajudicial executions. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 02:48, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  'a.k.a. "El Paredón"' as "extrajudicial execution" is misleading 

message: Refugees
Following to the US government, some 1 200 000 Cubans (about 10% of the current population) left the island for the United States between 1959 and 1993,[26] often by sea in small boats and fragile rafts. Nevertheless, this is disputed.
perhaps i'm missing something obvious, but what is meant by 'following to the us gov't'? does it mean according to u.s. govt stats or cubans fleeing the repression of communism to the west? 76.168.169.86 (talk) 05:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  refugees section 

message: This is an amateur web page and is not a reliable source. All citations to it will be removed, particularly because a lot of literature exists about the article's content. 
Black Book of Communism is not a serious source, but is a work of pop-history from a commercial publisher - a work that's been extensively criticized. The focus of the book is not Cuba and therefore does not belong in this article. SadSwanSong (talk) 14:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Anybody have a thought on the use of this as a source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/message/46114 ? It's used several times throughout the article but it links to an article from a magazine posted to a yahoo group. I can't find the original article on the website http://www.areitodigital.net/ . 70.90.87.73 (talk) 17:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: As the discussion for the POV section template is long dormant, I've removed it per #3 in the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
::#In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
I'd encourage editors to continue to revising to correct any issues they see, however. -- Khazar2 (talk) 17:06, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV template 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It currently reads: During Spanish colonization, the oppression of the indigenous populations was chronicled at length by clergyman Bartolomé de las Casas. The subsequent transportation of African slaves to the island, which lasted over 300 years, led to British military intervention and a determination "to put a stop to these abuses"
:When was the Spanish colonization, when was it chronicled by this guy, what was the starting and ending year of African slaves being brought over, when the did British military intervention happen?  Dream Focus 12:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why aren't specific dates listed in the opening? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article states Cuba was "officially atheist" until the 1990s. This is not true. The only officially atheist state in world was Albania under Enver Hoxha. Cuba is a secular state. 129.63.183.117 (talk) 18:44, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Officially Atheist

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why have my statements about this OUTRAGEOUSLY biased article been blocked from publication on here. Is Wikipedia really a complete pretense? Only one-sided agendas (American-only) will be allowed. Sounds like what you're saying about Cuba!
Please stop using the bigotry against gay people like me to advance the ideological strait jacket being imposed by American policies and general hypocrisy 2407:7000:8402:B200:8DA6:AE74:9111:8217 (talk) 03:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Is this article's description of LGBT rights in Cuba not accurate? Jarble (talk) 22:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia using people of my sexual orientation for propaganda 

message: It's hard to know where to start. The most obvious issues are with the links to "Óscar Elías Biscet" and the "International Committee for Democracy in Cuba." First off, there's nothing in the Oscar article about what he was actually protesting, or even if his protesting was political or anything. He's pro-freedom or something? Is he a prisoner of conscious? That entire article manages to avoid any purpose for anything. Why did the cuban government care about him? Nobody using wikipedia knows, so this link is useless. 
The name "international committee for democracy in cuba" should have immediately set of alarm bells. I went to their actual website "http://www.icdcprague.org/" Turns out, not only are they the oldest, whitest 8 european dudes you've ever seen, but some of them are dead. The website hasn't been updated since 2008 and one of them died in 2011. Clearly this is not a cite-worthy group.
Anyways, the first three references in this article are from 1) human rights watch, a notoriously pro-american NGO, 2) Organization of American States, not even notoriously pro-american so much as venomously pro-american, and 3) someone opening a lawsuit against Cuba in 2005 over alleged torture. So what happened with the suit? Who knows.  
I could keep going but you get the picture. The issue is this article is highly political, and Wikipedia is not equip to handle outside influences at this magnitude.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Methadonecliniccynic (talk • contribs) 08:02, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article's intro is terrible