Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems/Archive 3

message: The creation of such an article I talked about before, but I would like to discust this first. - Mdd 22:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I seems in the mean time this article is started by User:Stevertigo on 3 May 2007. I added the international links, and a link to the stub-article systems. I think there are more possibities with this article. See for example the German article :de:System (Begriffsklärung). - Mdd 14:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article [[System (disambiguation)]] 

message: Earlier discussion here, see  brought up the idea, that improvements could be made to this article. A talk about this started at the  WikiProject Physics, see . 
Without interfering them to much, we can further develope our own idea's about this right here? - Mdd 22:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article [[Physical system]] 

message: Before we proceed, I propose we take some time, say a week, to gather some more different perspectives and expert opinions on systems engineering and the current article. So I like to invite expert here to give their perceptions on this situation. - Mdd 09:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some more expert opinions 

message: We would improve section within home robots, relating the smart environment in home robotics (communications between robots in a domotic network, for coordinate action). --HybridBoy 06:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we can be of any assistent, please be more specific in what you expect us to do for you. - Mdd 14:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Home robots 

message: Earlier discussion here, see  brought up the idea, that improvements could be made to this article. A talk about this started at the  WikiProject Physics, see . Without interfering them to much, we can further ty to develope some own idea's about this right here? - Mdd 22:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk at the WikiProject Physics is now archived, see  - Mdd 13:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article [[Physical system]] 

message: I don't mean to start an argument here, but since anarchism is in the scope of this project I will utter my question here.
Does the template of anarchism belong on the page Spontaneous_order(along with the template of libertarianism)? I believe it does, since it is a key principe to libertarianism and anarchism. I have discussed this on the Talk page of the article but seem to be denied. It is suggested there that spontanious order is only a key principe to anarcho-capitatism. Could somebody with knowledge on this topic (preferably on both anarchism and libertarianism) supply some key references please?
Also Proudhon one of the key thinkers of spontanious order is a self proclaimed anarchist. Please see the Talk:Spontaneous_order for the entire discussion. Teardrop onthefire 12:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anarchism and Spontanious order 

message: I recently started The Sustainable development Portal and  offered it up for portal peer review to help make it a feature portal down the road. Please feel free to to help improve the portal and/or offer your input at the portal peer review. Thanks. RichardF 16:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Sustainable development Portal 

message: The first part of the explanation of the Systems Theory were it says "systems theory as a technical and general academic area of study predominantly refers to the science of systems that resulted from Bertalanffy's General System Theory (GST), among others" the source reference would be: 
* Mark Davidson, UNCOMMON SENSE – The life and thought of Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Father of General Systems Theory, J. P. Tarcher, 247p, 1983. 
For a short but good review of this book, please refer to the author of the review is Peter Engel, source: Sciences; Mar/Apr84, Vol. 24 Issue 2, p60, 1/3p - Bdiner 23:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I copied this talk item to the Talk:Systems theory, and responded over there - Mdd 08:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systems theory reference 

message: A  template has been added to the article Human systems Integration, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice explains why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy).  You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you endorse deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please tag it with . User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 18:23, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for this warning. I hope the next time it will come a bit earlier, because when I read this tonight the article is allready deleted  and little can be done. - Mdd 21:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Human systems Integration

message: I had deleted a link on the Santa Fe entry to the Bandung Fe Institute (BFI) in Indonesia. Everyone should be made aware that this institution not a true institution in the usual sense, but is run by some amateur college drop outs. It lacks any credibility; one may verify this fact simply by visiting their website and reading any of their so-called "papers". An entry for Bandung Fe Institute was recently deleted from WP due to a Notability issue which I had raised in the former Talkpage there.  A blog entry which discusses the Bandung Fe Institute as academic hacks can be found here.Erik incognito 02:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I have copied this info to the Talk:Santa Fe Institute. Better to discust such things on the article talk page itselve. Good luck - Mdd 10:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Info on Bandung Fe Institute

message: The article Spontaneous_order has been tagged as in need of attention, and it is considered an important article. 
In the past there was a template on it making it a part of the libertarian series. 
Spontaneous order was indeed partly concieved by an libertarian, Friedrich Hayek. But also by an anarchist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.
Also as stated in one of his interviews that can be found on the wikipage of Proudhon.
Another famous quote was his "dialogue with a Philistine" in What is Property?:
So I added the anarchist template making it both a part of the libertarion series and of the anarchism series. The word, "Spontaneous order" is even in the template of anarchism under Theory and practice.
But every time I am denied, and the template is not permitted on the page. After this the libertarian template was also removed, making this article "serieless".
Now I saw an anonymous user also trying to add the template but this ws quickly removed. I am getting demotivated since I feel I am talking to a wall here see my pleads on Talk:Spontaneous_order. According to me both templates belong on the article. Does anybody have the courage to meddle in the pickle? Teardrop onthefire 09:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I've taken a look at the article again and realized that a libertarian or anarchism template can be experience as disturbing. Lot's of the articles we are working on are about fundamental concept, which can be applied in many sciences. If you tag it with one "applied" template, you force the article into a corner, were I personly wouldn't like it. It seems to me however that there is an easy workable solution: Put the article in multiple categories. Good luck - Mdd 10:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spontanious order 

message: I have started a discussion on the origin of the concept of self-organization across the disciplines that use the concept.  If others would weigh in with any high-level information about when the concept became explicit within your particular discipline or area of expertise, that would help us immensely.  Thanks.  N2e 22:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Self-organization]] -- origin of the concept

message: :: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  updated --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I know, I nominated this article - Mdd 10:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for Deletion: [[Scriptnetics]] 

message: :: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  updated --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I know, I nominated this article - Mdd 10:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for Deletion: [[Fibernetics]] 

message: :(also listed in :Category:Systems articles needing attention)
:: --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed deletion: Blind Variation and Selective Retention 

message: : This discussion has been moved to the new WikiProject Systems Engineering Initiative talkpage. On those pages all discussion around System Engineering are brough together. - Mdd 14:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article [[Systems engineering]] 

message: A List of systems engineering books is being developed to get an overview of the more important books written on systems engineering, and it's historical development. If you have any information or other notable lists, please edit the list yourselve or let us know? - Mdd 18:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of systems engineering books 

message: A List of systems engineering at universities is beeing developed to get a better impression of the State of the Art in SE education. If you have any information, please edit the list yourselve or let us know? -Mdd 18:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of systems engineering at universities 

message: In the article Self-organization, the short section Self-organization vs. entropy is currently tagged with "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this section are disputed" and "The quality of this article or section may be compromised by weasel words", as well as multiple "citation needed" tags. -- 201.37.229.117 (talk) 10:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-organization vs. entropy needs attention 

message: Ilya Prigogine is still basically a stub. Can anyone add to this? -- Writtenonsand (talk) 11:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I made some improvements. - Mdd (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ilya Prigogine]] needs expansion 

message: :Copied from User talk:Mdd 
You know about this sort of thing more than, I could you take a look at  the talk page for the article, which someone tried to speedy-delete,--and, inexpert though I may be,  I find it really hard to believe WP doesnt have an article on PPBS. DGG (talk) 03:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Output budgeting]] 

message: The former "List of Systems Biology Research Groups" is moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/List of Systems Biology Research Groups. Anybody can still add there information over there. -- Mdd (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Systems Biology Research Groups moved 

message: Curious to see if any drawings or maps have been made to represent the unassessed systems dimensionsDebMacP (talk) 13:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drawings? 

message: Spotlight                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 	
An article covered by this WikiProject, Artificial sunlight, is currently under the Spotlight. If you wish to help, please join the editors in #wikipedia-spotlight on the freenode IRC network where the project is coordinated. (See the IRC tutorial for help with IRC)	
...... Dendodge .. TalkHelp 12:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spotlight 

message: User:Thorsten1 has recently removed the image of Talcott Parsons from his article, with the argument:
: "remove image - no image at all is still better than this. The colors are hurting people's eyes and it's not even very similar."
I think this is unacceptable. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Talcott Parsons 

message: An IP user has recently added your project's banner to Talk:Universal Product Code, along with several others and other talk page banners. If this article is really in your project's scope, please rate it; otherwise please remove the banner. Thanks! Anomie⚔ 21:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, thank you. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Universal Product Code in your project's scope? 

message: This is a FA article belonging to this project. Michael Kurtz, apparently an author of some of the articles used as source material, contacted me on my talk page and asked me to tag the unreferenced parts of the article. FA articles are currently being reevaluated to see if they continue to maintain FA standards. Hopefully, some editors from this project will update the page and endure that it still meets Featured article criteria. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 16:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Astrophysics Data System]] 

message: Can anyone here help by looking at the article Three-point estimation ... it seems not to have anythink particulary specific about context, but mentions "IS" without saying what this means and also mentions "project management". In all, it is not clear that this is of interest here, but it might be. Melcombe (talk) 09:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent new article 

message: Yesterday I have remove sections of a series of articles, due to possible copyright infringements. I am going to work on that and (in time) can use all the help I can get. I am working together here with people from the people for the Wikipedia:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup and some other editors. At the moment we are still isolating these problems, which occurred in my work.
Some background information first:  
* The initial discussion started Oct 6, 2009 at the see Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism, see here. 
* And proceeded around several article, such as at the talkpage of several article such as Gregory Balestrero (here ), Project Management Institute (here), Arne Sølvberg (here), Management Cybernetics (here), and other article talkpages. 
* A central discussion Oct 7 evolved at my talkpage, see here ; An analysis of my work started by me the same day, here ; Ideas for further action were given de next day, Oct 8, see here.  
* Maybe also interesting is a commitment I made to about this, see here  
* At the Dutch Wikipedia I started a discussion, see here 
Also here I apologize for all inconvenience. Without any doubt I made a series of mistakes (with not citing sources properly, and not rewriting those citations used), of which I also apologize (as I explained in my commitment). I want to work hard to solve these problem, and ask for some patient along the way. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 10:11, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright improvements on systems articles 

message: On October 10 I have removed the work-sections of a series of 90+ biographical articles in the fields of systems science, visualization and enterprise modelling, see below:  
=== Biographical articles ===
Biographical articles Systems sciences : 
* ‎‎Russell L. Ackoff • Timothy F. H. Allen • Kenneth D. Bailey (sociologist) • Walter F. Buckley • Peter Checkland • Harold Chestnut • C. West Churchman • George Dantzig • Melvil Dewey • Richard F. Ericson‎ • Jay Wright Forrester • Charles François • Ralph W. Gerard‎ • Harry H. Goode • Bertram Myron Gross • Jifa Gu • Arthur David Hall III • Debora Hammond • Francis Heylighen‎ • Derek Hitchins • Cuthbert Hurd • Michael C. Jackson • Cliff Joslyn • Karl William Kapp • George Klir • Kyoichi Kijima • Allenna Leonard • Loet Leydesdorff • Gerrit Mannoury • Richard L. Meier • Gary Metcalf • Charles A. McClelland‎ • Mihajlo D. Mesarovic • James Grier Miller • Ian Mitroff • Harold G. Nelson • Linda Olds • J. Donald R. de Raadt • Yong Pil Rhee • Barry Richmond • Kjell Samuelson‎ • Lawrence B. Slobodkin • Stafford Beer • G. A. Swanson • Einar Thorsrud • Werner Ulrich • Stuart Umpleby •  John N. Warfield • Gerard de Zeeuw
Biographical articles visualization 
* Jacques Bertin • Lee E. Brasseur • Maxine D. Brown • Donna Cox • Thomas A. DeFanti •  Michael Friendly • Alan MacEachren • Jock D. Mackinlay • Michael Maltz • Bruce H. McCormick • Otto Neurath • Lawrence J. Rosenblum • Arthur H. Robinson • George G. Robertson
Biographical articles systems -, software - & enterprise engineering/modelling 
* Charles Bachman • Peter Bernus • Tom DeMarco • Jan Dietz • Robert L. Glass • Tom Gruber • Børje Langefors • James Martin • G.M. Nijssen • T. William Olle • Colette Rolland • Douglas T. Ross • Winston W. Royce • Henk G. Sol • Arne Sølvberg • François Vernadat • Richard Veryard • Edward Yourdon • Alain Wegmann
After isolating more problems in the thematical articles, I worked on, I will work hard to get all of those article back, and I welcome every help I can get. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 09:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listing of articles with sections temporary removed 

message: Biographical articles Systems sciences : 
* ‎‎Russell L. Ackoff • Timothy F. H. Allen • Kenneth D. Bailey (sociologist) • Walter F. Buckley • Peter Checkland • Harold Chestnut • C. West Churchman • George Dantzig • Melvil Dewey • Richard F. Ericson‎ • Jay Wright Forrester • Charles François • Ralph W. Gerard‎ • Harry H. Goode • Bertram Myron Gross • Jifa Gu • Arthur David Hall III • Debora Hammond • Francis Heylighen‎ • Derek Hitchins • Cuthbert Hurd • Michael C. Jackson • Cliff Joslyn • Karl William Kapp • George Klir • Kyoichi Kijima • Allenna Leonard • Loet Leydesdorff • Gerrit Mannoury • Richard L. Meier • Gary Metcalf • Charles A. McClelland‎ • Mihajlo D. Mesarovic • James Grier Miller • Ian Mitroff • Harold G. Nelson • Linda Olds • J. Donald R. de Raadt • Yong Pil Rhee • Barry Richmond • Kjell Samuelson‎ • Lawrence B. Slobodkin • Stafford Beer • G. A. Swanson • Einar Thorsrud • Werner Ulrich • Stuart Umpleby •  John N. Warfield • Gerard de Zeeuw
Biographical articles visualization 
* Jacques Bertin • Lee E. Brasseur • Maxine D. Brown • Donna Cox • Thomas A. DeFanti •  Michael Friendly • Alan MacEachren • Jock D. Mackinlay • Michael Maltz • Bruce H. McCormick • Otto Neurath • Lawrence J. Rosenblum • Arthur H. Robinson • George G. Robertson
Biographical articles systems -, software - & enterprise engineering/modelling 
* Charles Bachman • Peter Bernus • Tom DeMarco • Jan Dietz • Robert L. Glass • Tom Gruber • Børje Langefors • James Martin • G.M. Nijssen • T. William Olle • Colette Rolland • Douglas T. Ross • Winston W. Royce • Henk G. Sol • Arne Sølvberg • François Vernadat • Richard Veryard • Edward Yourdon • Alain Wegmann
After isolating more problems in the thematical articles, I worked on, I will work hard to get all of those article back, and I welcome every help I can get. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 09:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biographical articles 

message: ;Systems sciences organizations 
* American Society for Cybernetics‎ • Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences • Cybernetics Society‎ • Dutch Systems Group‎ • International Federation for Systems Research • International Institute for General Systems Studies • International Society for the Systems Sciences • Josiah Macy, Jr. Foundation • Mental Health Research Institute (Michigan)‎ • Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study • Principia Cybernetica • Society for General Systems Research
Update for now. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 23:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organizational articles 

message: ===Mathematical diagram===
In conjunction with this, most of the material at Mathematical diagram has had to be removed pending permission or revision, as much of it was copied verbatim from its sources. Specific details are available at the article's talk page. Since this article is evidently of high importance to this project, I thought to note it here in case members of this project could collaborate in repairing this situation. Thank you for any assistance you can provide. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I will adress to particular articles in a next stage, if this is possible and ok with you. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Specific articles that need improvement 

message: In conjunction with this, most of the material at Mathematical diagram has had to be removed pending permission or revision, as much of it was copied verbatim from its sources. Specific details are available at the article's talk page. Since this article is evidently of high importance to this project, I thought to note it here in case members of this project could collaborate in repairing this situation. Thank you for any assistance you can provide. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I will adress to particular articles in a next stage, if this is possible and ok with you. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mathematical diagram]]

message: Other discussions about detecting copyvio, and futher improvement started on thematical articles like
Management cybernetics,   
Project management, 
Project Management Institute, 
Philosophy of dialogue,
Systemics,  
Systems psychology, 
Systems art, and 
Systems science
and biographical articles 
Thomas A. DeFanti 
Werner Ulrich,
G. A. Swanson,
I might have missed a spot or two. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More specific articles 

message: There is a series of article which in the past have been improved after I started it, aor introduced some mayor imporvement. Examples of those articles are:
Béla H. Bánáthy, 
David Epston, and 
Stuart Umpleby 
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Specific articles that have been improved 

message: Notability tags have been add at 
Timothy F. H. Allen, 
Thomas A. DeFanti, 
Arne Sølvberg, 
G. A. Swanson, 
Alain Wegmann, and
Werner Ulrich. These tags and the questioning of notability are mostly independent of the improvement of the copyvio. This is an other problem, which as well should be handled with great care. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability questioned 

message: The article Management information system could really do with some work. This important article is pretty weak. I just removed a huge copyvio portion that has been there for some time.
Perhaps others could work on it?  Chzz  ►  14:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Management information system 

message: Quantum chaos has been recently edited (diff) by . The edits seem, based on a pattern of editing, to be WP:COI violations: the user adding his own non-peer-reviewed sources to many articles. But I'm not a physicist, and it's possible that I've erred in my judgment. Would someone review this addition?
The article claims itself to be within the scope of your WikiProject and the Physics WikiProject so I left this message there as well as here.
CRGreathouse (t | c) 17:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon edits at Quantum chaos 

message: The fractal article Chaosbrot is being considered for deletion here if anyone wishes to comment.--RDBury (talk) 13:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been decided on deleting the article. Morton Shumway—talk 16:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Chaosbrot]] AfD