Talk:Odette Hallowes

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: I have just read the book by Jerrard Tickell and there are a few differences between it and this article.  How factually accurate would you say the book was? Ponty Pirate (talk) 22:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Jerrard Tickell

message: Nancy Wake was also awarded the George Cross (while alive), so I removed the following:
::"She remains the only woman to have received the George Cross whilst alive, all other female GC awards to date being posthumous." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuntable (talk • contribs) 05:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: George Cross

message: According to her birth certificate, Odette Hallowes was born Odette Marie Léonie Céline BRAILLY, the daughter of Florentin Désiré Eugène BRAILLY (31) and Emma Rose Marie Yvonne QUENNEHEN (25). She married Roy Patrick Sansom on 27 October 1931. Archives communales et communautaires d'Amiens, "Les fonds d'archives" > "Registres numérisés" > "Registres d'Etat Civil" > "Naissances" > "1912 [1]" > "vue 150/531".
According to the "Mémoire des Hommes" website, Florentin Désiré Hairien (?!) BRAILLY (born in  	 Ivry-sur-Seine on 26 February 1881) was killed in action at La Butte du Mesnil (Le Mesnil-lès-Hurlus, Marne, France) on 26 September 1918. Mémoire des Hommes, "Conflicts and operations" > "First World War" > "Those who died for France in the First World War".
Lomkimarsh (talk) 07:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a transcription of the birth entry in the Amiens records: "576 Odette Marie Léonie Céline Brailly : L’an mil neuf cent douze le vingt-neuf avril à onze heures du matin pardevant Nous Joseph Edouard Louis Delasalle Chevalier de la Legion d’honneur Adjoint et délégué du Maire de la Ville d’Amiens faisant les fonctions d’Officier de l’Etat civil a comparu Florentin Désiré Eugène Brailly, trente-un ans Employé de Commerce, demeurant à Amiens rue des Corroyers, deux cent huit. Lequel nous a présenté un enfant du sexe féminin né en sa demeure la vielle à une heure du matin, de lui comparant et de Emma Rose Marie Yvonne Quennehen, vingt cinq ans, modiste, son épouse et auquel enfant ils déclaré donner les prénoms de Odette Marie Léonie Céline. Les dites présentation et déclaration faites en présence de Eugène Brailly cinquante-neuf ans, retraité les Postes demeurant à Amiens rue des Corroyers, deux cent vingt et de Florent Duvauchelle, cinquante-huit ans, sentier, demeurant même trente-deux. Et après lecture, le père et les témoins ont signé avec . . ." and written alongside that entry: "Mariée à Boulogne-sur-Mer (Pas-de-Calais) le vingt-sept octobre mil neuf cent trente et un Roy Patrick Sansom." GreyHead (talk) 09:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: French vital records: who's Gaston Brailly?

message: First, we are told that she could not prove that she had been tortured. Then, we are told that she could. There is some doubt about this and always has been.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by G6934 (talk • contribs) 09:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Other aspects of her story are hard to believe, as well. I want independent evidence.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by G6934 (talk • contribs) 10:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The names of the eyewitnesses are not given.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by G6934 (talk • contribs) 10:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure of your point in the above, but the fact that she was tortured is well-established. A new biography provides further details. Coretheapple (talk) 18:53, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: ===== Introduction =====
The page title is Odette Hallowes yet the introduction is Odette Sansom Hallowes which is inconsistent, and she was not known by that name. Generally, women are listed under their married name (unless best known by their maiden our stage name) and their maiden and any previous married names are listed within the document. In her case it is shown that she was also known as Odette Sansom and Odette Churchill, (and Internet searches of either of these names redirect to 'Odette Hallowes'.
The description Allied intelligence officer is perhaps misleading and she would be better described as a Special Operations Executive agent, which is both more accurate and is consistent with the articles on other SOEs agents.
===== Superlatives =====
The sentence: She was the first woman both to be awarded the George Cross (on 20 August 1946), and to be appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur.  does not tell the whole story, which is: She was the first woman to be awarded the George Cross, the only woman to be both awarded the George Cross and appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur.
The statement and most decorated spy of any gender during World War II would seem to be incorrect on several counts. Ignoring campaign and service medals, and civilian medals awarded after the war, Nancy Wake received more medals for bravery, but at a lower level, the George Medal being lower than the George Cross. Nancy Wake would seem to be the most decorated female during World War II, but not the most highly decorated female. Forest Yeo-Thomas was more highly decorated than Odette, and Gunnar Sønsteby would seem to have been even more highly decorated. It would seem to be accurate to describe Odette as: the most highly decorated woman during World War II.
=== Proposed rewrite ===
The first two sentences would then read:
Odette Hallowes  LdH (28 April 1912 – 13 March 1995), also known as Odette Sansom and Odette Churchill, was a Special Operations Executive agent during the Second World War.
She was the first woman to be awarded the George Cross, the only woman to be both awarded the George Cross and appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur, and the most highly decorated woman during World War II.
Comments? MrArmstrong2 (talk) 09:55, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction and superlatives 

message: The first two sentences would then read:
Odette Hallowes  LdH (28 April 1912 – 13 March 1995), also known as Odette Sansom and Odette Churchill, was a Special Operations Executive agent during the Second World War.
She was the first woman to be awarded the George Cross, the only woman to be both awarded the George Cross and appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur, and the most highly decorated woman during World War II.
Comments? MrArmstrong2 (talk) 09:55, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed rewrite 

message: Looking at the List of George Cross recipients (and without looking very thoroughly) I found two women who got the George Cross before WW II. Thus, it seems that the statement that she was the first woman to receive the George Cross is wrong.  Possibly she was the first woman to receive the George Cross for work during WW II.  I'll make the appropriate change in the text.Smallchief (talk) 12:47, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: First woman to get the George Cross?

message: Based on her group as displayed after her death, and in photos of her taken over the years wearing her medals, (e.g. one, two: (1965), three, four and five), the medal group worn by Odette Hallowes consists of:
UK    		George Cross
UK    		Member of the Order of the British Empire (Civil)
UK    		1939-45 Star
UK    		Defence Medal
UK    		War Medal 1939-45
UK    		Queen Elizabeth II Coronation Medal
UK    		Queen Elizabeth II Silver Jubilee Medal
France		Legion d’Honneur (Chevalier)
This is at odds with the medal ribbons Hallowes' wears on the portrait at the top of the article, which shows her with a Military division MBE, the France and Germany Star and no Defence Medal. That this portrait contains errors is suggested both by her post-war photos and by:
*Her Civil Division MBE is confirmed by the London Gazette entry. As an officer in FANY, she may not have been eligible for the military division.
* The France and Germany Star was "granted for operational service between 6 June 1944 and 8 May 1945". Being a prisoner of war did not count as 'operational service'. Although a prisoner, Samson was not held as a POW. This could have led to confusion as to whether her imprisonment counted as 'operational service', with an initial view that she qualified, rescinded later. Other SOE agents who received the France and Germany Star – like Violette Szabo – were only captured and imprisoned after 6 June 1944.
* The ribbon bar for the 1939-45 Star is worn backwards, a clear error.
Does anyone have any further evidence of Hallowes' medal entitlement?
Hsq7278 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medal entitlement 

message: Or perhaps it's Rävensbruck? 2A02:AA1:1605:BCCC:44FA:EEEE:9948:4951 (talk) 21:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ravensbruck? Ravensbrück?