Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive 8

message: You clearly don't understand the concept of Wikipedia and WP:NPOV. Familiarize yourself with TRNC, Abkhazia or South Ossetia.--Eupator 23:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So should you -- let's compare all those pages against NK and see. --AdilBaguirov 00:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It already has been compared, revert war stopped over this and concessions were done. Fad (ix) 00:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arguments

message: "...clearly points out an Armenian majority in Karabakh, Lachin, the western half of Agdam, and some other nearby areas. It's dated 1995". Golbez, the fact it has Armenian population in fact  shows almost nothing. The majority doesn't always prove anything. Although 1995 map is outdated a bit I think. --Brand спойт 23:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was solely in response to Adil's statement of: "Furthermore, the statement "NK cannot occupy itself", in addition to the above point, contradicts not only international law, but defies logic -- first, because "NK", as well as 7 regions (which had 99% Azerbaijani and Kurdish populations, no "sizeable Armenian population") had Azerbaijani population as well" 99% Azeri and Kurdish? the CIA disagrees. That was my only point in posting that map. And I now see that I have been drawn into a completely irrelevant fight by Adil. He's good. --Golbez 23:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, but check out your another previous suggestion: "there are also census data from 1989 and 1979 and all other decades, showing how many Armenians lived in Lachin and Kelbajar and other regions. So not very clear what you mean by showing this ethnolinguistic map - what's the point? Note how many Azerbaijanis live in Daghestan and Iran -- should we append them to Azerbaijan then?" According to your logic Armenians should merge to Armenia Lachin and Kelbajar the way Azerbaijan should merge Daghestan and Iran :) --Brand спойт 23:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have me mixed up with someone else, I never said that. --Golbez 00:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right, I wrote this, and indeed, you are too selective in what you want and don't want to appear - if you think that your point with ethnolinguistic map is right, then you should modify apprpriately bunch of pages, such as the Iran page, the Daghestan-Russia page, etc -- because the ethno-linguist map you like shows Azerbaijanis in majority on many of those territories near the border with Azerbaijan. Also, since you like the map, you must adopt Khankendy as the main and primary name, and place Stepanakert either in parenthesis or remove completely. Still, you might want to look at the official census figures as well as reports from OSCE about the true size of population of Armenians on the occupied territories. But then again, introducing this map (and asking to ignore the name of the city but not something else) to support your resistance to change map, drop double standards and make the NK page in full accordance with Wikipedia's other similar pages, still doesn't make any sense, as neither does it prove much, nor is the status and spelling of Lachin and Kelbajar districts being discussed here. . --AdilBaguirov 07:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will not have you put words in my mouth. You have twisted my statements, and it is pissing me off. What the hell do I have to modify in those other articles? The map is mine to change, I have made no recent resistance, I just happen to not have done it yet. It takes time. Oh, and what about the UN map saying they have no opinion on the names and borders? I must do nothing, I do not take orders from you, sir. --Golbez 08:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you joking? Where do I twist a single statement of yours? Perhaps you should take a hard look at your word usage since you are making a lot of baseless accusations. You brought in one irrelevant and outdated map, and one completely outdated one -- in at least the latter case you were selective, since you obviously knew about the newer map and plus it was available at the same site you got it from -- and of course, I've given you a bunch of them too. It's OK -- if it takes time to redo the map, then take down the current one. And this is not an "order" from "me" - this is the requirement of an encyclopedia which requires veracity and objectivity and NPOV. The current map is a total POV. --AdilBaguirov 08:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I explained the ethnolinguistic map issue further above in my last edit. My accusations are not baseless at all. And there is no newer map of Nagorno-Karabakh alone, only of the whole of Azerbaijan. I tire of this fight. I explained the ethnolinguistic map in my previous edit, please read the explanation and let me know if it is satisfactory. --Golbez 08:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will just count this as a genuine misunderstanding, since the CIA map conveyed the wrong impression upon you and my post didn't explicitly say that the 99% estimate was from before the war. Let's forget it and leave this map out. There is a newer map, but I don't have it. I have non-CIA map about births and population decline, and that whole occupied area is marked in white, meaning it is pretty much empty -- which is true, the whole occupied area outside of NK proper has maybe about 20,000 Armenian resettlers. --AdilBaguirov 08:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: THANK YOU, that's what I've been trying to get us to do, to "forget it and leave the map out". --Golbez 16:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Return 

message: A proposal to merge this article with my recently-created Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast has been made, by someone not me. I can see the merits in a merge; however, I note that many other Soviet entities - two relevant ones being the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and Azerbaijan SSR - have articles. I'm of the mind that says we should have articles on all the old Soviet entities, even if they have perfectly corresponding present-day ones, just because of the current standards and the history behind it all. Comments? --Golbez 01:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Meh, I don't think it's necessary.  I turned the article into a redirect for the Nagorno-Karabakh page and I've redirected the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast page to the article on South Ossetia.  After all, aside from the conflict that arose in the late 1980s, there really isn't much to the history of Karabakh under the Soviet Union. It's different for say the Armenian SSR or Azerbaijan SSR articles where the history of those republics can be detailed. -- Clevelander 20:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: This article really needs a section on Nagorno-Karabakh's economy, which I'm sure is very stunted due to the war, but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised. --Golbez 16:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And yes, I actually have high hopes this could become a GA or even FA. Barring possible POV issues, it's really shaped up quite well, though it still has a ways ahead of it. --Golbez 23:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hi Golbez. There’s absolutely no way this article can make it to GA or FA status. The current intro, introduced by you and Tigran without discussing it with other interested parties reflects exclusively an Armenian POV, and articles with POV problems cannot have a featured status. I’m restoring the POV tag, which was repeatedly removed without any explanation. You cannot remove the tag until the dispute is resolved. And its not just me opposing your changes, Adil never supported them either. Also I have a question to Golbez. Would you be so kind as to explain why you reverted the original intro, which was restored by EI C? That intro was made by a consensus of the users, the current one has no consensus, still you repeatedly revert to it. You say that you are impartial, if so, why do you support one of the sides of the dispute and completely ignore what the other side says? Why do you oppose to restoring the status quo and agreeing on changes before making them? Thanks in advance for your answer. Grandmaster 15:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no "exclusive Armenian POV" here. You keep saying that, without explaining why. Is it the controlled vs occupied bit? Or the lack of "self-proclaimed" everywhere in the article? Or what? I hope I'm not repeating a question that's been answered, but I hope you can understand with the volume of talk on this page that I may have missed an answer, but can you cite a specific POV issue you have with the intro? I would say I am far more impartial than you. --Golbez 21:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I’m not saying that I’m impartial. But you removed the fact that NK is a region of Azerbaijan. It’s a fact that was in all the versions of intro. What is your problem with that? Grandmaster 21:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One, it matches the other regional separatists articles. Two, if you accept that the region is de facto independent (which I think most of us do), then how can it also be "a fact" (i.e. "de facto") that it is also part of Azerbaijan? --Golbez 21:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is de-jure part of Azerbaijan. I hope you are not going to argue with that? Grandmaster 04:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I'm not. --Golbez 07:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why then this cannot be reflected in the intro? De-facto and de-jure normally go in conjunction. Grandmaster 07:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well put, there is disagreement, therefore there is no consensus. QED. --Golbez 21:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: QED, quod erat demonstratum. It's a phrase used to show in mathematics that the result required for a proof to be complete has been attained; in other words, it's when you prove a proof. There is no consensus because there is disagreement, the statement proves itself - you can't disagree with consensus, because by the existence of the disagreement, there is no consensus. I probably used QED incorrectly, but I liked it. ;) --Golbez 03:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economy 

message: Golbez, I think the Shahumyan paragraph should state, in one form or another that "the Shahumyan district, in a joint decision with NKAO, declared its independence from Azerbaijan and the establishment of the Nagorno Karabagh Republic on September 2, 1991, joining the NKR." Otherwise, it sounds like NKAO first declared its independence, then claimed an outside territory.
See, for example http://www.nesl.edu/center/pubs/nagorno.pdf (the analysis by New England law school, mentioned in the Int. Status section): "the joint decision of the NKAO and Shahumian district to declare the establishment of the Nagorno Karabagh Republic on September 2, 1991"--TigranTheGreat 00:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact the whole mentioning of former Shahumyan should be removed as advised before -- it was neither part of former NKAO, nor were there any legitimate basis for that claim (or for "NKR" declaration of independence for that matter), nor is it occupied by Armenia, nor did that region have a Parliament or even council. There are many declarations of independence in absentia - for example, the Republic of Goycha and Zangezur . --AdilBaguirov 03:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ooh, we should have an article on that! --Golbez 07:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The source is dubious--I mean we don't even know whether they declared it while in Armenia, or outside--the page says "it is claimed that it was declared." It's not an official site of this "entity."--TigranTheGreat 08:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, based on the links helpfully proviced by Tigran, we really should mention it, though I'm not yet sure how. However, Tigran, I would really love links other than that singular declaration. I have no proof, for example, that anyone from Shahumian was actually involved in that (according to the ethnolinguistic map (uh oh), that region should be majority Azeri, so I don't know who is joining NKR here), and I would like ... not a verification, since that does appear to be an official document, but ... an independent telling of events? I guess what I'm saying here is, the only source I have for the Shahumian thing is the NKR declaration of independence - I'd like a separate report/document/story about it. --Golbez 07:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I read the second one, it seems rather tilted towards the Armenian side. Perhaps with cause, perhaps not, I'm just saying. As for the first one, that's useful, thanks. --Golbez 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that's established by the text; I'm also considering adding the official Line of Control to the map. Sigh. --Golbez 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Right, but it wasn't part of the NKAO, hence part of the current confusion. --Golbez 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Golbez, you still have not answered, why the intro does not mention NK being de-jure part of Azerbaijan? And also, the dispute has not been resolved, why did you remove the tag without even asking our opinion? Grandmaster 09:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "De jure" goes with saying "independence is not recognized". Now, the difference is, when we say "independence is not recognized," that means it's de jure part of Azerbaijan, but it says nothing about its de facto status - it could be both de facto and de jure part of Azerbaijan. Which is why we then need an additional comment on the de facto status. Making a further comment about the de jure status seems to be doubling up - "It's unrecognized, AND it's part of Azerbaijan!" Put the notice back if you like, I removed it only in good faith, but I must insist specific complaints be made. I thought the de facto/de jure issue had been resolved, I apologize if it had not, you can understand that this talk page is long and convoluted. --Golbez 09:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem, that’s why I asked you. I have no doubts you did it in good faith. Please see the way BBC describes the status of the region: Status: de jure part of the Republic of Azerbaijan, unilaterally declared itself an independent republic in 1991.  Now I think the first line should reflect the current status, de-jure part of Azerbaijan, de-facto under the control of separatists and Armenia. Grandmaster 09:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition, here are some interesting news related to de jure recognition of NK as Azerbaijan's: Amnesty International: PUBLIC STATEMENT AZERBAIJAN: Journalist detained in self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh Republic -- a blow to freedom of expression. Thus, anything negative that happens in the occupied territories, also gets placed in Azerbaijan folder, which however unfortunate, shows responsible approach taken by such a well-known NGO consistent with international law and obligations. --AdilBaguirov 11:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shahumyan 

message: I seriously get the impression from your chats that you would prefer if all mention of the NKR were removed from this article, including its self-declared independence. Am I correct? --Golbez 19:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Golbez, I do not mind any mentioning as long as it's balanced. Why do you think it is fair to mention "NKR" 10 times, but precede it with "so-called/unrecognized/self-styled" only once? While I am not asking tit-for-tat, but if there was at least some symmetry, i.e, 3:1. The article is about Nagorno-Karabakh, and that's a land, which belongs to all people who have been born or lived on it, and which is historically part of any one country. Thus, why should it ignore all that and please only Armenian POV? Why can't it say de jure, occupation, ethnic cleansing, if that's accepted and correct terminology? Nothing of what I am asking -- I emphasize, nothing -- is based on wild unsusbstantiated claims. Everything is based on precedents, consistency, and international law and acceptance. That's how I approach all the other conflicts too -- such as Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, Transdniestr. --AdilBaguirov 00:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Why do you think it is fair to mention "NKR" 10 times, but precede it with "so-called/unrecognized/self-styled" only once?" Because once we've defined it as such, we can trust the reader to remember what he read earlier in the article. --Golbez 00:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Golbez, it's a lengthy article and some people would read only certain parts of it. Also, what if we reverse the argument, and say, OK, let's define "NKR" only once, and use NK authorities, since we can trust the reader will remember and make the right judgement? --AdilBaguirov 00:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand what you mean about reversing it. As for people who only read part of it, that's not our problem, we cannot constantly repeat definitions because we're worried people will skip parts of the article. --Golbez 00:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Adil, under Wiki policies, we use self-names instead of outside names when it comes to organizations or entities. There is a whole example of "skinheads" in Wiki policies. People call them skinheads, but we use "white supremacists." Same goes for your "separatists" objection--TigranTheGreat 05:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tigran, what is the "self-name"? A self-name is what people of the land can call it, and did it occur to you that those people are not only ethnic Armenians, but Azerbaijanis. Per your white supremacists/skinheads example -- the official designation used in official government reports is generally "white supremacist groups". Since I advocate using the official language, your example is in agreement with the right way of approaching NK page, that is the official, internationally-recognized and applied terminology. --AdilBaguirov 08:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adil

message: I met an Armenian girl in Oslo, she was from Baku, but left with her parents shortly before the collapse of the USSR. She doesn't speak Armenian, but she speaks Russian, Azerbaijani, Norwegian and English. She was telling me how she had an Azeri girlfriend but they split up. Interesting world it is. - FrancisTyers · 11:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Typical story of NK war. There are hundreds of thousands of people with similar stories on both sides, many of them lost their friends or family members. Such is the world we live in. Grandmaster 11:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Aye, very true Grandmaster :( - FrancisTyers · 19:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are up to 30,000 Armenians, according to US State Department and other diplomatic sources, living in Baku, Sumgait, Ganja, Sheki, etc., even today, with them and their children working in good places, from media to science, from oil to government (there are no Azerbaijanis left in Armenia or occupied territories of Azerbaijan aside from a few old people from mixed marriages). There are many joint ventures and businesses between the two peoples in countries like Russia. Thus life continues and people value relationships and human qualities. If there wasn't military aggression, occupation and ethnic cleansing, it would have obviously been far better. --AdilBaguirov 15:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, many Armenians don't make themselves known that they are Armenian in Azerbaijan. They too are the result of the mixed marriages. Also, Francis, the reason she doesn't know Armenian is because they were never taught Armenian. I spoke to an Armenian women from Baku, Azerbaijan in the United States and she too only spoke Russian with me because Armenian was never taught in Azerbaijan, much less Nagorno-Karabakh.--MarshallBagramyan 16:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You've been greatly misinformed. Perhaps that woman became a US citizen/resident by claiming unexistendpersecution and has to keep on doing that all her life unless she wants to be criminally charged for lying to INS/BCIS. Armenian language was taught, Armenian radio was and still is available, newspapers were published (e.g., Sovetakan Karabakh in Armenian), and in case of former NKAO the whole teaching process was in Armenian in many schools and at university, not to mention other details, like the head of NKAO was Armenian, many ministers were Armenian in Azerbaijan SSR. Some of this info you can read at the NKAO article in Great Soviet Encyclopedia . In Baku and other cities today everyone knows well who is Armenian - so how would those Armenians make themselves unknown is not clear. Meanwhile, no Azerbaijanis remain in Armenia, all are refugees, none were allowed to occupy any prominent government posts, there were no schools or universities teaching Azerbaijani, much less conducting the whole teaching process in Azerbaijani. --AdilBaguirov 22:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Kindly provide sources for your mythological insinuations, actually show me one, just one Armenian that currently lives in Baku... Here's an Azeri in Armenia named Felix Aliyev . There are many others. I thought you said there are no Azeris in Armenia? I guess that was just like evrything else you claim.--Eupator 23:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By now, everyone should have realized that I never make any mythological insinuations - I leave that to others, who never cease to amaze me. I will show you not one, not two, not three -- or even a dozen or so ethnic Armenians I know myself in Baku -- but up to 30,000 that I already mentioned! Here's the US State Department: "Ethnic Azerbaijanis have fled areas of the country controlled by ethnic Armenians, and mosques in this area not already destroyed did not function. Animosity toward the Armenian population elsewhere in the country forced most Armenians to depart, and all Armenian churches, many of which were damaged in ethnic riots that took place more than a decade ago, remained closed. As a consequence, the estimated 10,000 to 30,000 Armenians who remained in the country were unable to attend their traditional places of worship."  I hope this satisfies the genuine curiosity arising from massive misinformation and misrepresentation about Azerbaijan that you and Tigran and Fadix, Marshall, etc., have been subjected by some unidentified Armenian women. --AdilBaguirov 23:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Same source: Some Armenians and persons of mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani descent complained about being unable to register their residences, find work, and get access to medical care and education due to their ethnicity. The approximately 30,000 citizens of Armenian descent complained of discrimination in employment, schooling, housing, and other areas. They also complained of workplace discrimination and harassment and of the refusal of local authorities to pay pensions. Most shielded their identity or tried to leave the country. Some changed their nationality, as reported in their passports. Authorities revoked some Armenian widows' permits to live in Baku. In September, the Government denied entry visas to three foreign citizens of Armenian ancestry on the grounds that the Government could not guarantee their safety in Baku. Some persons of mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani descent continued to occupy government positions. Public figures whose parents reportedly were of mixed-Armenian and Azerbaijani marriages, or had such marriages, were attacked publicly by colleagues in the press.  
So it appears there aren't any Armenians after all. There are some of mixed descent and those that are Armenians hide their idnetity!--Eupator 23:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting conclusion - it says 30,000 Armenians, yet Eupator says "it appears there aren't any Armenians after all". also note that "Some persons of mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani descent continued to occupy government positions". As of the rest, it is a human rights report -- it obvously will list violations and allegations. This is just 1% of the report. The rest 99% talks about violations of rights of ethnic Azerbaijanis in Azerbaijan - because once again, it is a human rights report. Same as in Armenia, where same violations occur everyday, and indeed more, as Parliament speaker and Prime Minister with others get gunned down in the Parliament building in the middle of the day, or Presidential bodyguards beat an Armenian to death in cafe Poplavok for shouting at President Kocharyan. So there are up to 30,000 Armenians, and they experience the same problems as their non-Armenian neighbors and friends. Which can't be said of Armenia -- where aside from a hundred token Azerbaijanis, who are all old, there is no one left. --AdilBaguirov 00:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Opression GSE will not show, but GSE will reveal various facts that are being supressed or twisted nowdays, such as the fact that Armenian language was taught, newspapers, radio was available, etc. And that's what was questioned. Not a single Muslim Kurd remains in Armenia -- all were expelled and had to run to Azerbaijan along with 200,000 Azerbaijani refugees. Is that the respect of rights of Muslim minorities? --AdilBaguirov 23:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You've been greatly misinformed. Perhaps that woman became a US citizen/resident by claiming unexistendpersecution and has to keep on doing that all her life unless she wants to be criminally charged for lying to INS/BCIS. No, don't make unsubstantiated charges without knowing what you're talking about. She has been living in the United States for only a brief time, her English is near non-existant and she legally immigrated from Russia. Her Armenian is non-existant because she wasn't taught Armenian while living in Baku and Karabakh. And she, among a few others I have met who are from Azerbaijan, can only say a few broken fragments in Armenian until concluding our conversations in Russian. I mean, what do you think were the major complaints by Karabakh leaders in 1988? They were that they weren't taught, like Armenians living elsewhere, the Armenian language and alphabet, that there was no Armenian television broadcasting. Implementing all these for Armenians living in the NK were one of the concessions offered by Gorbachev in an effort to compromise with Armenian leaders.--MarshallBagramyan 04:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In Baku back in Soviet times everybody spoke Russian, including Azeris. I myself finished a Russian school. There were Armenian schools in Baku, but they were not popular with Armenians, who preferred Russian language. And it was not only Armenians, many Azeri people also preferred Russian, because without good knowledge of Russian you could not make a career in the Soviet system, so people tend to send their children to Russian schools. Grandmaster 05:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This week

message: Since some members want to get official and use the term de jure in the intro for this article then we should also use the term occupation instead control, that is also official but yet not accepted here on wikimedia? If term de jureis added anyways and the term occupation is left out then this is nothing else then just a double standard against Azerbaijan. Baku87 18:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You probably misunderstood. NK is de-jure, i.e. legally part of Azerbaijan. The intro was correct. Grandmaster 18:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official words? 

message: Let's chart things.
# 	Question                                              	Azeri POV    	Armenian POV            	Neutral POV
1 	Who owns Nagorno-Karabakh?                            	Azerbaijan   	The locals              	???
2 	Who is in control of Karabakh?                        	Armenia      	Karabakh                	???
3 	Is NK under control of occupation?                    	Occupation   	Control                 	???
4 	Who is in control of the 7 rayons?                    	Armenia      	Karabakh                	???
5 	Are the 7 rayons under control or occupation?         	Occupation   	Occupation              	Occupation
6 	What matters more, de jure or de facto?               	De jure      	De facto                	???
7 	Whom the NKAO secede from?                            	Azerbaijan   	USSR                    	???
8 	Was it a legal secession?                             	No           	Yes                     	???
9 	Where is NK?                                          	In Azerbaijan	Surrounded by Azerbaijan	???
10	Is it internationally recognized as de jure Azeri?    	Yes          	No                      	???
11	Is it internationally recognized as de facto Armenian?	Yes          	Yes                     	Yes
12	Is it internationally unrecognized?                   	Yes          	Yes                     	Yes
If anyone can think of other questions, please ask them. The two I filled in are the ones where, in my perception, all sides agree, and seems to be the neutral and factual statement. My thoughts:
#We don't say who owns Karabakh - this is the neutral statement, to put out the claims and facts.
#We state Karabakh is in control of it - most of what I'm seeing says it's the local NK army (with substantial Armenian support).
#We state that is control, not occupation - you cannot occupy yourself. If it is the Armenian army, then we say occupation. 
#We state that Karabakh is in the 7 rayons - does it have to match? Can Armenia be in the 7 rayons, but the NK army in Karabakh?
#We state Karabakh (or Armenia) occupies the 7 rayons - you can, however, occupy others.
#De facto matters much more than de jure long-term (and fifteen years is more than long enough). After while, de jure just fades away. 
#The NKR says it seceded from the USSR, that's good enough for me
#Whether or not it could legally secede from the USSR is up in the air, so I have no answer for this one
#This is the most complex question and the one that's caused the most strife, so no answer at the moment.
#I don't think so, as this requires an active acknowledgement. We cannot say "every nation recognizes it as part of Azerbaijan" without having quotes from every nation.
#I think even Azerbaijan acknowledges they have no control over the area, and have not for the better part of 15 years.
#No nation has acknowledged it, so yes, it is internationally unrecognized.
Thoughts? --Golbez 06:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There’s a difference between the words "universally recognized" and "internationally recognized". NK is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, UN does that, other organizations and leading countries of the world do. Opinions of small countries don’t really matter in this world. Grandmaster 07:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, they do. They have just as much a vote in the UNGA as most of the big ones. And so do big ones - Can you cite me where Russia (being the local heavy) has de jure recognized Nagorno-Karabakh? I would say they de facto recognized it by having them as a party at the cease fire agreement. According to diplomatic recognition, there is a useful difference between de facto and de jure recognition. But OK, I'll change it to internationally. One more thing - we need citations here. Can you cite me someone saying "NK is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan"? Not saying "the NK region of Azerbaijan", but specifically saying that international opinion is that it's part of Azerbaijan? (and yes, it's an opinion) --Golbez 07:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Russia recognized NK as part of Azerbaijan, as did all other major players. I think we have opinion of Russia in the archives. So did France, US, UK, Germany, etc. And see Atkinson quote below. Grandmaster 09:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The problem is that removing the fact that NK is legally is part of Azerbaijan is a violation of NPOV rules, as it supports only Armenian POV, which is that NK is not legally part of Azerbaijan. But there’s no other country or international organization in the world, who says so. So if we don’t mention it, we support only a certain POV, which is a view of minority, which we cannot do according to the rules. Grandmaster 07:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Golbez, see my above quotes from UN et al -- Azerbaijan "owns" Karabakh no matter what, and that's the NPOV. NK and other regions are occupied by Armenian forces, not merely "controlled". The area was ethnically cleansed from Azerbaijanis and others. The regime in NK and other occupied regions is separatist. It is not a government, but an "authority". USSR, Azerbaijan SSR and any other legitimate authority such as UN never accepted Armenian claim about "NKR succession", and that works much better for me than "NKR"s claims. Every nation -- such as Tuvalu -- is irrelevant in this respect. UN had a membership of perhaps 189 nations in 1993 and they both through the General Assembly and especially in Security Council (which had 15 members) recognized NK as part of Azerbaijan -- and in case of UN SC, that's automatically an international law. And as I've shown to my opponents, even Armenia inadvertedly or not, recognized the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan both in General Assembly and by sighning an EU document. --AdilBaguirov 07:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How can you own that which you do not control? Does the People's Republic of China own Taiwan? --Golbez 07:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Also, Golbez, you have in your chart only Azeri and Armenian POV, how about reaction of international community? Grandmaster 07:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Adil has a habit of calling the international community neutral, clearly whatever we determine to be neutral will match the international community. Right? And I would say generally the international community agrees with Azerbaijan. Recognized nation-states agreeing with recognized nation-states. No surprise there. --Golbez 07:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So? NK is legally part of Azerbaijan, until is recognized otherwise, isn't it? Grandmaster 07:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Legally"? There is no world court here, nor a world lawmaking body. Only treaties between sovereign nations. You two keep saying "legally", but legally according to whom? Either the secession was legal according to Soviet law, or it wasn't - I don't think any other legality enters the fray. And, finally, did Armenia ever recognize the NKAO as being part of the independent Azerbaijan? --Golbez 07:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I wrote this, then realized that I'm probably being too demanding, needy, or specific. There are generic considerations of legality at work here. --Golbez 07:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The country becomes de-jure (in accordance with international law) independent, when it is recognized. If it’s not recognized, then it’s still a part of another country. So far not a single country stated that it does not consider NK to be a part of Azerbaijan. Also, Atkinson in his report to PACE stated that “the borders of Azerbaijan were internationally recognised at the time of the country being recognised as independent state in 1991. The territory of Azerbaijan included the Nagorno-Karabakh region”.  PACE is a serious organization, do you think that Atkinson lied to the Parliamentary Assembly? Such lies are easy to catch in such an organization, but no one disputed this statement, even Armenian deputies. We don’t dismiss reliable sources of information in Wiki. Grandmaster 07:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Western Sahara is neither recognized as part of Morocco, nor an independent nation, by the U.S. State Department. It's not recognized, but is it part of another state? No. And yes, so far as I can tell (I welcome being corrected), Armenia has said they do not consider Nagorno-Karabakh to be a part of Azerbaijan, but they have not recognized its independence. I don't think Atkinson lied, no, and your statement borders on a logical fallacy. Please do not be confrontational. (I was starting to become such, which is why I issued my retreat above) I think this whole section was a mistake, it's much better to deal with each issue individually rather than in a big chart. If no one complains, I'll just archive this now. And I'm not saying dismiss Atkinson - but don't post his word (or anyone's word) as gospel, either. Say "Atkinson said". --Golbez 08:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Western Sakhara is different. It was a former colony, occupied by Morocco, and has a special status with UN. NK has not. And I’m not being confrontational, I was just wondering why such a serious source as Rapporteur of PACE is being dismissed without any serious reason. No one has ever proved his bias. Even if we consider it as his opinion, he’s still a person, who knows the conflict very well, as it was his job to research the background of it. Also, I always presented it as his words, and nothing else, but please note that UN refers to NK as a region of Azerbaijan, which means that it still is, because it is a collective position of its members (General Assembly and UNSC). I understand your sincere desire to help resolve the issue, but this case is better compared with similar cases on the territory of former USSR. The issue we should reflect is that while NK is a de-jure region of Azerbaijan, it is de-facto controlled by Armenian separatist forces. It is exactly the same in Abkhazia, S. Osetia and Transnistria. I think that we cannot ignore neither legal, nor factual aspects of this conflict, because if we do, then we breach neutrality. Grandmaster 09:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Btw, there was an interesting outside view in our previous RfC, which was endorsed by others. See  Grandmaster 07:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Golbez, man, this is really becoming surreal - you are questioning the authority and applicability of the international law and specialized international institutions, despite this being unconstructive, nihilist and not in line with the obligations of any country on which Wiki hosts its pages, primarily servers in the United States. The authority of UN and world community and international law are well-known and affirmed and taught at any International Relations 101 class in any college. --AdilBaguirov 11:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I don’t think anyone can be removed from discussion here. People have a right to express their opinion, and it does no have to match opinions of other people. We just need to find a way to reconcile different views on the situation. But anyway, I think the intro is quite good, it takes into account all aspects of the situation, both de-jure and de-facto. Grandmaster 19:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but there are ways to disregard the extreme POV of certain users - my favorite is User:Haham Hanuka on Adolf Hitler, who comes along every few weeks attempting to get the "6 million Jews" line removed from the intro. It never sticks. He never gives up. We tolerate him. Adil has every right to express his opinion (so long as he does not become disruptive), but that does not mean his opinion will get in to the article. --Golbez 21:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "we are making a legal interpretation to which experts in international law may or may not agree." Can you site an expert who disagrees, though? And I didn't like "declared independence from Azerbaijan" because I'm still confused, did they specifically declare from Azerbaijan or from the USSR? Note my section below. If I can put "declared independence from Azerbaijan" without any ambiguity, then that would likely remove the need for 'de jure'. --Golbez 23:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Tigran, can you cite an expert from any international organization, such as UNO, PACE, etc, who would say that NK is not legally part of Azerbaijan? Private law schools don’t have the same authority and can be hired to state a certain opinion. Grandmaster 04:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A chart. 

message: I don't know if I will add this to the war article, but I just whipped this up (It's as much a test of new mapmaking skills as anything, I haven't made a map as complex as the N-K ones before), and I thought I'd whore it out for opinion like the last one. Any comments? Except that it's kinda huge. :| --Golbez 06:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The base map is simply my Azerbaijan rayon map zoomed in, so if the borders are distorted, then they are in all of my maps; please check them.  was one of my sources for the line of control; other sources say the whole of Jabrayil is occupied, so I discarded that. --Golbez 21:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: How about I change it to "or"? I don't like assuming that people know Armenian can mean Karabakh, at least in that context. --Golbez 22:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: My feeling on this has never wavered - while the NKR declared independence, or what not, the other rayons of Azerbaijan did not, nor have they been annexed or abandoned - that sounds like military occupation to me. Wikipedia does not shirk from using the word "Occupation" where appropriate - Occupation of Iraq timeline, etc. However, since it is not listed on List of military occupations, it would be contradictory to add it. And maybe there's a reason it's not on there, some subtlety I'm missing? Hrm. --Golbez 22:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: But when you say Armenian, you mean ethnic Armenian; when I hear "Armenian forces", the first thing that comes to mind is "military of Armenia" - which you said isn't involved. --Golbez 22:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Occupations are not necessarily bad, they're just drawn that way. For example, following WW2, several belligerent countries were occupied, but almost no one says France, the USA, etc. did anything wrong there. (The Soviets, maybe) --Golbez 22:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: For the hell of it