Talk:List of people with brain tumors

message: Someone tried to remove the image of Elizabeth Taylor because they thought it was purely decorative.  I added it after reading Wikipedia:What is a featured list?.  That guideline recommends an appropriate image.  The images at featured lists List of Formula One World Drivers' Champions and List of spacewalks and moonwalks served as models here.  
I sought a image under GNU license, preferably of a long term survivor.  Elizabeth Taylor met these rquirements and had the advantage of worldwide recognition.  Other possibilities might have been unfamiliar outside a particular professional field or geographic area.  I believe the caption explains Elizabeth Taylor's factual relevance. Durova 19:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the image 

message: In the wikipedia article naming conventions, the rule about list articles specifically says not to include the words "notable", "prominent", etc., In this respect wikipedia has a single rule: if a person has a wikipedia article, he is notable (or vice versa). While the "definition" of the list reasonably includes the criterion of notability, as I see it, the article title should be List of persons with brain tumor ("patient" is a wrong term as well. Some notable cases were diagnosed BT only posthumously).  Mukadderat 22:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you name any person on this list who was diagnosed posthumously? Durova 22:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, I've been unable to find the article you mention.  Please provide a link.  Regards, Durova 22:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Your points are well taken.  I followed the customs of "people" lists, which often skirt the edges of that guideline (which I suspect is in need of review).  The practical matter is that any extension this list beyond public figures, while possible within WP:V, would dilute its usefulness and enter the realm of questionable taste.  Also, I definitely defend the "patients" designation within the title.  Although I also compiled a larger list of public figures who were immediate family to a brain tumor patient and donated the data to leading brain tumor charities, such information ought to be handled with dignity and care.  I do hope more of those people step forward and lend their celebrity to the search for a cure - but irresponsible broadcasting of their names could be counterproductive.  No one chooses this distinction. Durova 22:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your concerns to only include notable people (as opposed to the relatives of notable people, for example) is quite understandable and correct. This should be true of all medical lists on Wikipedia. To do otherwise would be an invasion of privacy, even if the information was publicly available. I think the "notable" could be dropped whilst keeping the existing entry criteria as detailed in the intro. However, I know that many editors don't read the "rules" so can understand your fears that someone will add "So and so's brother had a brain tumor". As principle editor, I'm happy for your opinion to hold here. Colin°Talk 09:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article title

message: Due to the large number of pediatric cases, parents and teachers may want to use this list to develop innovative teaching approaches.  Examples from this list could familiarize children with brain tumors and put a human face on the subject.  Anyone can appreciate the music.  Suggested selections include The Beatles' "Here Comes the Sun," Johnny Mercer's "Accentuate the Positive," Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough," Bob Marley's "Redemption Song," or Ethel Merman singing a George Gershwin tune such as "I Got Rhythm."  Grade school age children could watch Elizabeth Taylor as a child star in National Velvet or hear stories about figures from their favorite sport.  High school and college age students could write term papers about figures from some field of interest. Durova 18:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Note to readers

message: Medicine does not generally use the term "benign" to describe low grade brain tumors.  Unlike other parts of the body, a slow growing tumor inside the skull eventually kills most patients unless treatment succeeds in removing it completely.  This misleading description may still appear in some older publications. Durova 06:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benign tumors 

message: Why was Convy's name removed; he died from a malignant brain tumour.
Robbie 07:37, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bert Convy

message: Specter's name removed by me b/c Hodgkin's disease (lymphoma) is not a form of brain cancer.
Please contact me if you disagree!!
Thanks!!
Rms125a@hotmail.com 20:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reinstated Arlen Specter.  The claim that he had Hodgkin's disease *instead of* a brain tumor is unsourced.  The reference within the article links to a major news source that quotes him directly as saying he survived a brain tumor.  Senator Specter's case is among the most well documented on this list, with 13,900 Google hits for "Arlen Specter" + "brain tumor."  The National Brain Tumor Foundation identified him in as a well known patient in a press release dated 9 November 2001.   In 2005 he was also diagnosed as having Hodgkin's Disease.  The user who removed the reference seems to have confused these two separate diagnoses for ailments that were diagnosed twelve years apart. Durova 17:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: NP.  It's admirable that he remains in the senate despite it all.  I'm glad he's with us as an inspiration to others. Durova 05:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arlen Specter

message: Featured list status requires a high standard of editing.  Following are suggestions to new contributors:
*Please accompany each entry with an external link to a reliable source.
*Footnote a diagnosis if it takes more than three lines.  Cite an additional reference if appropriate.
*If you have trouble using table format, post to this talk page and ask for assistance.
*Add a link to this list in the See also section of the person's Wikipedia biography.
Thank you very much for contributing and making this list more comprehensive. Durova 16:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding to this list 

message: To expand the information about her cause of death, please create a footnote and a supporting external link citation. Durova 05:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethel Merman 

message: I've started to survey the incoming links at brain tumor for biography articles.  Anyone care to do the same for brain cancer? Durova 05:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research suggestion 

message: I'm not quite sure wether he is "eligible" or not for this list. It seems that he developed cancer in other parts of the body first, and it finally spread to the brain... The nature of his job made this tumor somewhat more dramatic than it already is... Perhaps we can even say it was a notable tumor of a notable person!... -- NIC1138 21:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just state that the tumor was metastatic, as with Lance Armstrong. Durova 21:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  John von Neumann 

message: As highlited by User:Colin, the current title is inaccurate and does not conform to guidelines.
First, the use of "notable" is redundant since the criteria for inclusion in the list is notability. Read Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Lists of people. And second, the word "patient" is inacurate as you are only a patient whilst receiving treatment for that condition by a doctor. So it is hard to see the word applying to everyone in either list. It also implie a medical POV. I'll move the list to List of people with brain tumor if no one will object to the move. CG 13:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I understand some of these concerns, the comment "also implie a medical POV" is puzzling.  Brain tumor is a medical diagnosis.  What other POV could possibly exist? Durova 06:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not everyone with a medical diagnosis would like to be viewed as a "patient" 100% of the time. This generally applies to chronic illnesses (which is why I didn't want the word for the epilepsy list). Doctors view you as a patient, everyone else doesn't - hence the POV. I see "patient" appear often in medical articles written by wikidocs. I think they view everyone without a stethoscope round their necks as a "patient" and it may influence their writing in that they might not consider the whole person rather than just a bunch of symptoms to be cured ;-) Colin°Talk 09:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Within this community I've never seen that objection.  The usual first question when one logs onto a brain tumor chat is, "are you a patient or a caregiver?"  It becomes a self-identification: people who have this condition know that no matter how slowly the tumor grows or how good the location, it will kill them if untreated, and even treatment that seems to be successful could change into fatal news at the next MRI exam.  I suppose I could imagine how an epileptic could manage without medical care and even see advantages to the condition.  If the precedent ever becomes an issue, you could reply that brain tumor terminology is often exceptional.  Technically speaking, primary brain tumors do not fit the definition of "cancer" (although in nearly every way they behave like cancers) and a good number of tumor types are not strictly "malignant" either even though most patients die.  Durova 17:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List rename 

message: It appears that this list is accepting people who have a brain tumor whether this is the original cancer site or just one place that it spread to. It seems to me that this dilutes the value of the list. Some cancers can spread all over the body in the end stages. If someone developed lung cancer, for example, but it spreads elsewhere, they'd still have lung cancer and would probably be recorded as dying of lung cancer. You wouldn't expect that person to appear on a list of folk who had bone cancer just cause it spread to the bones.
I do accept that for many references, all the info we have is that they died of "a brain tumor". I would argue that those who had a different primary cancer, and for whom the brain tumor wasn't the cause of death or notable symptoms, should be removed.
Comments please .... Colin°Talk 14:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I see how the confusion arose.  After the article achieved featured status another editor altered the introductory statement about inclusion criteria.  I've restored the older version, which expresses how the list represents metastases.  Brain tumors and other types of tumors do not bear easy comparison.  Patients who experience a brain metastasis and their caregivers encounter a special set of concerns in common with primary brain tumor patients and radically different from all other types of metastasis.  When this list circulated within the brain tumor community, including major charities, no one objected to noting metastatic cases. Durova 06:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entry Criteria 

message: Can I suggest the references be transformed to be like those on List of people with epilepsy. The anonymous hyper-link style used at the moment is not featured-list quality. In addition, a review of the references may result in a tidy-up of some additions and would be worthwhile in maintaining its featured-list status. If nobody complains/volunteers then I may do this at some point soon. Colin°Talk 14:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  Sounds great. Durova 06:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Colin°Talk 20:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Does anyone have a source for this listing?  I've Google searched "brain tumor," "brain tumour," and "brain cancer" without finding anything.  The entry doesn't have the tone of a hoax, but this list's inclusion criteria state the listings must all be verified.  Posting in the hope someone can supply a printed confirmation. Durova 08:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Uriel Weinreich]] 

message: Now that the references are visible, it is clear that not all can be regarded as reliable sources. I've already removed/replaced some that were just Wikipedia mirrors, or used Wikipedia content (such as some Answers.com articles). Gwethalyn Graham's entry has been removed for now, since I couldn't find an alternative source at present. Two other significant sources are also worth replacing or supplementing:
* Internet Movie Database. According to the Wikipedia article, this contains user-contributed material that undergo very little editorial checking. It doesn't cite its sources or name the authors of the entries.
* Facts about Brain Tumors web site. In my experince on the Epilepsy list, many charities do no fact checking whatsoever. In addition, I believe an earlier draft of this Wikipedia list was circulated to such charties. Therefore the risk of a self-reference is high.
My impression from whizzing through all the references is that not all info in this list can be verified against them. I'm happy to ignore the birth/death dates and the "reason for notability" mini-bio in the comments. But I think the statements regarding their tumor needs to be verified by the sources: What kind, what they died of, how long they survived.
The best sources for supplementary reliable sources are, I think, books, newspapers and reputable news web sites. Biographies and obituary columns would be obvious choices.
As part of auditing the references, and potentially replacing or adding some, I wonder if extra information is welcome. For example, more details on the cancer, operations, personal reaction, public reaction, etc. I think there will be little info for many entries, where the source merely gives the cause of death. But for some, there is extra info. Would it be too morbid to include - i.e. would people prefer a bare list and for that sort of info to be in the person's article only?
Could someone please give extra details on what the "Survival" column is based on. Is it time from diagnosis, time from first symptom, time from initial visit to a doctor, or something else?
Feedback and help with this task would be appreciated. Colin°Talk 20:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The pre-Wikipedia version of this list was also referenced to reliable sources.  When I brought the concept over to Wikipedia I double checked every entry and removed the ones whose reference was no longer a live page.  I think we can trust the National Brain Tumor Foundation.  Unlike some other medical sites, they don't repeat speculative diagnoses of people who lived hundreds of years ago.  Your criticism of the IMDB seems valid.  Also, I haven't done a thorough check on the entries that have been added since FL approval.  With the exception of IMDB verifications, I think the original FL names should all be solid. Durova 16:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audit 

message: The following people are in the "Brain tumour deaths" category but not (yet) in thist list:
*Paul Feyerabend
*John Galsworthy
*Brian Glover
*Richard Greene
*Colin Ingleby-Mackenzie
*Katharina Klafsky – 1911 Britanica has "brain disease". No other source found.
*Peter Law
*Meredith MacRae
*Margo
*Peter May – No source found.
*John Cardinal O'Connor
*Kate Reid
*Ivan T. Sanderson – Possibly false.
*Frances Shand Kydd – "Degenerative brain disease" 
*Bobby Van
*Frank Wills
*Yves Saint Laurent  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metallion (talk • contribs) 00:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible Additions

message: While the current entry is WP:RS adequately sourced for Ray Bumatai, I'm curious to see whether a second source can confirm this information.  Three years with glioblastoma multiforme is pretty remarkable.  Since the news story calls this "brain cancer" rather than the more technically correct "brain tumor" I'm a little skeptical about the numbers. Durova 13:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This news article confirms the 2002 date, and the brain tumour fact. Another source is here. I haven't found any other source for the tumour type. Colin°Talk 15:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ray Bumatai]] 

message: I removed Nell Carter from this list, as the source listed did not saying anything about a brain tumor, nor have I been able to find evidence elsewhere that she had one.  The claim that she had a brain tumor was once on her wikipedia article, but this has been removed from there as well.  --Xyzzyplugh 08:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nell Carter

message: Apologies to the many who put hard work into this article. Without prejudice, and without upset, I would like to see a discussion whether this featured list is actually encyclopedic, as I have concerns whether it is or not.
Hopefully this will be taken in the spirit it is intended - as a simple request for more in-depth thought, and not in any way detracting from its creators who have put work into it. If it is found to be encyclopedic, then good; I'd like to see discussion. FT2 (Talk | email) 07:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD listing 

message: A bot  has added class=FL to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a featured lists.  If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot (talk) 06:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Automatic addition of "class=FL"

message: The famous Australian Opera singer is missing on this list, too. Diagnosed in 1992, died in 1995 (?)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.156.141.116 (talk) 07:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arleen Auger 

message: Better source: Seymour, Miranda. Mary Shelley. New York: Grove Press (2000), 537-538. . I would change the entry myself, but I am unfamiliar with the cite templates. Awadewit (talk) 04:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary Shelley 

message: Von Richthofen was a distant cousin of the German World War I flying ace Manfred von Richthofen, popularly known as the "Red Baron" (who shot down 80 enemy aircraft before being killed in action in 1918), and the baron's younger brother Lothar von Richthofen, who shot down 40 enemy aircraft.
He was 47 at the time and the second-youngest person to be promoted to the rank of field marshal in Nazi Germany, after Hermann Göring (who was promoted when he was 45). Von Richthofen was retired on medical grounds in late 1944. 
He subsequently died of a brain tumor whilst being held in American captivity at Bad Ischl on July 12, 1945.
:::You are absolutely right so it is strange then that this addition has not been added to the list. Disgraceful in fact. But no surprise. The people who edit this page are not really interested in making a meaningful contribution to future generations. Will future readers care about the "rules" that govern this site? It only happened if there was a "reliable reference". But what is a reliable reference? Who decides? The statement is a fallacy. Like this article.
::::::WP:RS the definition of a reliable source is explained there. I share your frustration with the rules, but actually reading them curbed my frustration a little; they are in place with good reason. 143.92.1.32 (talk) 23:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wolfram von Richthofen]] 

message: Moved from main list to talk pending better sourcing. Durova288 18:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anatoli Levchenko 

message: Moved from main list to talk pending better sourcing. Durova288 18:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bob Parent 

message: I've started from the top of the list. Where required I have replaced poor sources with substantially more reliable ones. The following entries were sourced primarily to IMDB, and I have been unable to find a reliable replacement source:
*Pamela Britton | 1923–1974 | Actress who played Lorelei Brown on the television program My Favorite Martian. | 2 weeks 
*Brenda De Banzie| 1915–1981| British actress of stage and film; died during or after surgery on a benign brain tumor.
*Esmeray Diriker| 1950–2002| Singer and actress.
*Olivia Hamnett| 19??–2001| English-born Australian actor.
*Alan Lake| 1940–1984| Actor and widower of actress Diana Dors. Committed suicide.
*Penelope Dudley Ward| 1914–1982 | British actress and socialite; wife of film director Carol Reed
--DO11.10 (talk) 00:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audit from the top 

message: The England football manager died from lung cancer (the primary). A brain tumor was detected and removed in 2006. But that was not the cause of his death in 2009. 
He therefore would count as a survivor. But the way it reads in the table gives the impression that Robson died from a brain tumor when in fact he had it removed three years ago. He succumbed to tumor in the lungs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.153.30 (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just read his article and it says he died from lung cancer!!!! But 18 months later after the above post, this article still suggests he died from a tumour. Ridiculous. Who edits this stuff? Is wikipedia just simply about presenting clear facts? Poor, very poor.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.27.123 (talk) 14:33, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Bobby Robson]] 

message: Well Colin, we seem to have met in the middle. All of the sources used in this article should now be reliable and up to date.--DO11.10 (talk) 23:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audit of sources complete 

message: I came to this page expecting a list of people who were in some way notable because of something related to a brain tumor. (first patient to be cured by surgery, first patient to be cured by radiation, patient with the biggest tumor, patient with the most tumors, etc.)
Instead I find all these actors and politicians with perfectly normal boring tumors. Really, we don't need a list of people with ordinary tumors and their ordinary treatment.
The most interesting I found was Charles Whitman, who might have committed crime because of his tumor.
72.40.152.209 (talk) 11:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Really awful inclusion criteria! 

message: While this article is dubious at best, please at least spend five minutes fixing the sorting of the tables, none of the columns sort correctly.  Or better, just make all the tables unsortable.  Thanks.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table sorting 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of people with brain tumors. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on List of people with brain tumors. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on List of people with brain tumors. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of people with brain tumors. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Obviously there are many people on this list who did or do not have a brain cancer issue. There are lung cancers and pituitary cancers on this list. Why? The credibility of this list is in the toilet, imo. What use is misinformation on Wikipedia??? 71.7.195.233 (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of folks who did not die or have a brain issue on this list. Why????