Talk:Child pornography/Archive 2

message: Should we really have examples of "keywords" while they may not be illegial to have on the page they could aid in committing a crime and it seems to serve no legitimate purpose to have examples. Wikipedia should be an ethical encylopedia and there is more to that than simply not breaking the law.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.236.25.84 (talk • contribs).
:The above was written by meTimothy J Scriven 09:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One legitimate example I can think of is in order to filter these keywords in one way or another, from traffic through ones site or from search results (for example, while searching for legitimate/legal pornography, avoiding things that include these keywords). I agree that this information could aid criminal actions, but those who would perform them would know/find other sources for the information. --71.198.23.38 02:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Keywords" 

message: Since January 20, 2006, Council Decision 2004/68/JHA apply in all 25 member states. This decision define a "child" as a person under the age of 18 and "child pornography" as a real child or a real person appearing to be a child or a realistic image of a non-existent child engaged in a sexual explicit conduct...
As all Council decisions, this one is binding... 
Maybe one of you would like to write a section about child pornography in E.U. legislation? I could write it myself, but my english is not as good as it seems. --Sam67fr 13:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Child pornography in E.U. 

message: "On July 29th 2005, Fox News ran a poll asking if child pornography should be treated as art and therefore legalized. Out of 76,984 who responded, 79% were in favor, 5% opposed, and 16% undecided."
Proof?
:"Available studies show that the majority of viewers appear to be male adolescents, and many of them are minor adolescents themselves." Is this proof? since child porn is mainly underground and hard to find (except Japan) I'd say the people seeking it out are not minor adolescents themselves. I accidently deleted the Fox news discussion. If anybody has a backup plz restore it sorry :( --Unknown
::Perhaps the studies referred to those searching for child porn rather than those able to view it? Furthermore, it's not really that underground, one accidentally finds a lot of that stuff on kazaa, and I'd assume programs like that would be the main medium rather than secret websites which sound like honeypots so I'm sure most adult pedophiles would ignore them. --Tyciol 19:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fox news poll

message: Some people point out that allowing computer-generated child pornography may contribute to advancement of computer rendering.
Is that true? If so, are these people different from those who wrote the above sentence? Any pointer whatsoever to anybody who ever offered this argument? It seems to be braindead on its face, since computer rendering is already quite advanced by ordinary Holywood movies. --AxelBoldt
:It sounds like a BS argument to me, and moreover a deliberate attempt to be provocative. Indeed, from what little I understand of the topic, clothes are *much* more difficult to realistically simulate than naked skin.  --Robert Merkel
::I agree.  It sounds like nonsense.  The only way we could include it is if it is true that "some people" claim this, and if those "some people" are in any way important people, as in activists, or lawyers notable in this area of criminal law, or what have you. --Jimbo Wales
There are actually many countries up in Europe that do not allow child pornagraphy yet still do it. I was surfing the net for dating engine thingies, stumbled appon a porn site that didn't sound like a porn site, and was bombarded by about 30 or so adds. While I was closing them they maximized and stuff and around 8 of them were EXPLICIT child pornagraphy. All of them from some country in Europe. --Unknown
:Yes, and this proves that... people break the law! Even so, I'm surprised you stumbled upon it so easily, usualyl it's hidden or a honeypot by feds, perhaps it was simulated instead? Tyciol 19:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Computer-generated child porn advancing the art of computer rendering?

message: Nice to see that some people have taken a rational approach to defining 'child porn'. Sadly, most people don't even want to discuss it. If we are understand ourselves and justify our morality, then object and clear definitions are needed. Still, in this article, 'child' is taken as a monolithic notion.
Most people would agree that a 2 year old and a 17 year old are not necessarily equivalant. In Australia, I believe that the law on child abuse does take into consideration the age of the victim. I think that a similar aproach is taken to child pornography (the ages 14, 16 and 18 spring to mind).
The interaction between notions of 'consensuality' and what should be illegal is interesting. In at least some of the countries mentioned, the age of consent for intercourse is lower than the age for 'child' pornography. This would create the interesting situation whereby a couple could take pictures of themselves having sex which would be illegal for them to possess.
I find the argument that child porn is wrong because it normalises or encourages child abuse to be dubious. We allow graphic violence and depictions of murder, perhaps this should also be banned. This leaves the argument that child porn is wrong because it requires the abuse of children (what then of simulated child porn, or images of consensual sex between, say, 16 year old Australians ie people above the age of consent).
From a moral point of view (and I love these knotty moral issues), I have always wondered what the position would be of someone who took pictures of themselves in a sexual state (masturbating perhaps) when they were young, and then wished to distribute these pictures (perhaps later in life, as an adult).
:The issue of showing video tapes of murder and stuff is a relevant one, and one can show videos of simulated rape as well. I just want some uniformity in the law. If that means outlawing murder films, so be it. At least classed together it will draw more attention for serious discussion rather than being shrugged off discriminatorally Tyciol 19:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer your question, a minor photographing himself masturbating is a crime in the United States. Notwithstanding the fact that a) the act of masturbating is not illegal and b) the photograph was created of his own volition for his own personal use, it is a felony for any person to create or to possess an image depicting a minor in an actual or simulated sexual act. To be accurate, child pornography laws in the U.S. are not particularly rational and therefore cannot be rationally defined. --Rkrause 04:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Rational Approach to Defining Child Porn (at last!) 

message: This page very much needs the pictures so i may understand this topic more fully.
:Just what kind of "pictures" are you proposing? I might like to see a pic with the caption, "is this a kid in the bath/beach, or porn?" But it would have to be unquestionably legal. --DanielCD 18:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it was a joke.--24.190.122.122 11:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is exactly the problem. If you really want to know about the subject, you have to see child porn pictures. But if you are doing so, you are acting illegal and you will be punished (if you are caught).194.25.108.84 07:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needed Content 

message: :(moved from Category talk:Pedophilia)
* ASHCROFT v. AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
Held: COPA’s reliance on “community standards” to identify what material “is harmful to minors” does not by itself render the statute substantially overbroad for First Amendment purposes. The Court, however, expresses no view as to whether COPA suffers from substantial overbreadth for reasons other than its use of community standards, whether the statute is unconstitutionally vague, or whether the statute survives strict scrutiny. Prudence dictates allowing the Third Circuit to first examine these difficult issues. Because petitioner did not ask to have the preliminary injunction vacated, and because this Court could not do so without addressing matters the Third Circuit has yet to consider, the Government remains enjoined from enforcing COPA absent further action by the lower courts. P. 22.
* ASHCROFT v. FREE SPEECH COALITION
Held: The prohibitions of §§2256(8)(B) and 2256(8)(D) are overbroad and unconstitutional. Pp. 6—21.
* RENO v. AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
Held: The CDA's "indecent transmission" and "patently offensive display" provisions abridge "the freedom of speech" protected by the First Amendment. Pp. 17-40.]
* Miller v. California
* New York v. Ferber
:Can you give us an indication of what the connection is between these court cases and this category? Thanks, - Willmcw 23:10, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is interesting information, but it should be placed at talk:Child pornography, not here. I'll move it. -Willmcw 23:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Supreme Court Desisions (links)

message: I'd suggest that the links right at the top of this section should be categorised like the others in subsections. Also, I'm not sure the Nudist/Naturist Hall of Shame link is appropriate for an encyclopedia. 
Regarding the links to the 3 news stories (one BBC, two Guardian), unless these are directly referenced somehow (in which case put them in references) I'm not convinced they're worth linking to. If we started linking every article in the media regarding child porn we'd have hundreds of links, and these don't look to be particularly in-depth or original. At the least they should be clearly dated. WhiteCat 09:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links organisation

message: :"Available studies show that the majority of viewers appear to be male adolescents, and many of them are minor adolescents themselves."
That is a pretty serious claim to make for it to be left so vague.  I would like to see a mention of which "available studies" show that or at least see some resources cited for that statement. 24.93.151.25 03:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I found the statement to be a bit confusing too, I don't know how they'd gather data for any such studies. I'd agree with it, I looked for child porn when I was younger, because I felt that it wasn't wrong since I was the same age or younger than a lot of the girls in the pictures. Ah, to be young again, now that I'm 19 I must restrict myself to hand-drawn manga :( Actually... they're sort of better, probably because most children in child porn are being abused or are being unethically influenced, which is definately wrong. Tyciol 17:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You may want to retract that. Admitting to such behaviour could get you into a whole lot of trouble, even if some years have passed. Looking at child pornography is not legal nor viewed as any more acceptable just because you are younger yourself. Also, note that your hand-drawings are illegal many places too, such as in Canada and Norway. Clayboy 22:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, perhaps it was a mistake to mention it, but you can't very well retract anything on Wikipedia so I may as well leave it. Actually, to be honest I had just typed in stuff like 'teen sex' which isn't necessarily bad (since 18 and 19 are teen yet legal). I'm really not sure what age everyone was, they did look more on the old side. The stuff where it was visibly bad was immediately deleted out of paranoia, and you can't be faulted for people who misname videos :p So wait... hentai manga are illegal in canada? But I thought they sold them in stores and stuff... or do you just mean the hentai manga that infer younger people or state an age below 18? Tyciol 07:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I assumed you meant hentai manga depicting minors, which would indeed be illegal in those places. If the "actors" aren't minors, there obviously aren't any victims, since the hand-drawn ficticious actors chose to participate of their own free will. Clayboy 10:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Read more, judge less.--24.190.122.122 15:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adolescent Audience?

message: The article says that the Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition ruling allows for simulated child porn.  But what about this:  ?  Sure he had real stuff on his computer, but he also got nailed for the mangas as well.  Explanation? ----talk to me crimes against humanity22:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect that he was tried under a new law, passed since the Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition ruling, known as PROTECT Act of 2003. The new act also criminalizes simulated porn but has not been challenged in court yet (so far as I know). He may well have a case to throw out the animated child porn charges  but with the additional actual child porn possession conviction I don't think he would be able to escape a lengthy jail time. --Cab88 21:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Simulated

message: The following information is based on a story in the national Algemeen Dagblad newspaper in the Netherlands. It's all over the news in the Netherlands today. I'm wondering if it should go into the article (as the second sentence in the keywords para of the Commercial production and distribution section). There's no telling if anything will come of it, or how far it will go. Just dropping it off here for others to decide:
:In 2006, the Dutch KLPD police service started an investigation of Google's Adwords Suggestion Tools in response to allegations that the service was providing such keywords.
AvB ÷ talk 09:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dutch police investigate Google Adwords Suggestion Tools

message: There is a strong negative stigma associated with child pornography[citation needed];
You need a CITATION that there's a stigma attached to child porn!? lol. Can't somebody even write that lawnmowers cut grass without needing a citation?
I was going to say something about that, the 'citation needed' really needs to be romoved. --70.53.99.166 23:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ? 

message: from the article:
:Texts are not considered child pornography in USA, because, legally, any text has artistic merit...
I'm pretty sure that the "artist merit" of written materials isn't involved. Such texts are protected under "freedom of speech", right? 70.20.147.17 16:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Supreme Courts justification for excluding child porn from 1st amendment protection was that it involved the abuse of children in it's production. Since text "child porn" does not involve the abuse of children in it's creation, it would likely be ruled protected by the 1st amendment. Since no federal or state child porn laws have ever covered text so for as I know, the courts have never had to address the issue. --Cab88 12:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. From what I've seen in the news lately, most of the hard core child pornography has long since been eradicated, and all that remains to fuss over is "fringe" areas. In those areas, which are by nature difficult to define, it seems courts are making personal judgement-calls rather than professionally applying the law (or not). Some of their judgments are questionable, but others not so much. In the latter case, they really need new laws before new judgements, otherwise it's just kind of a big guessing game as to what will happen next. I've spent enough time observing cases in a courtroom to be really unnerved by the awkwardness with which these cases are sometimes handled. Since most of the obvious problems involving hardcore pornography and unquestionable abuse have already been greatly reined in, the courts are now busy exploring new territory that clearly is not well-understood in a consistent manner. The fact that this article is a complete mess seems to be a reflection of the actual state of affairs. From an article writer's perspective, this is a toughy since the subject matter is about as vaguely defined as can be. That's partly intentional (on the part of the law), since we're all talking about things we're not allowed to see. To be perfectly honest, I'll be surprised if this article EVER makes sense. We might as well be writing an article on alchemy. Qwasty 03:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The reason reallife child pornography is especially icky, is because it depicts commiting a crime. It is not the equivalent of watching a violent movie and becoming a violent kid. It's the equivalent of a beheading/terrorist video, the equivalent of following around a gang of youngsters and witness how easy it is to steal stuff. There's no punishing the criminal in the end, no "crime doesn't pay", no out-of-daily-experience motive for violence given or an advisory about the difference between fiction and reality. -Ados 05:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  freedom of speech 

message: It would be great if this article could explain this inconsistency. If virtual child porn per the statutory definition (depictions of a minor, whether real or imaginary, engaged in a sexual act) has supposedly been "proven" to contribute to the act of child sexual abuse, then why does text describing the very same acts of sexual exploitation with a minor not have a similar psycological effect?
Was some government-funded evaluation performed to determine if inducement to engage in a criminal activity is relieved when it is experienced in textual rather than visual form? 
What about auditory child pornography. Is that protected by free speech? And what about a role-playing fantasies whereby an actor molests a blow-up doll of a child in a stageplay. That would appear to encourage child sexual abuse. However, in this scenario there is technically no visual depiction of a minor involved because it is a live stageplay which itself has artistic merit. Is this also protected by free speech?
Clearly, the U.S. law in this respect still has a lot of loopholes and inconsistencies that need to be remedied.
--Rkrause 03:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. From what I've seen in the news lately, most of the hard core child pornography has long since been eradicated, and all that remains to fuss over is "fringe" areas. In those areas, which are by nature difficult to define, it seems courts are making personal judgement-calls rather than professionally applying the law (or not). Some of their judgments are questionable, but others not so much. In the latter case, they really need new laws before new judgements, otherwise it's just kind of a big guessing game as to what will happen next. I've spent enough time observing cases in a courtroom to be really unnerved by the awkwardness with which these cases are sometimes handled. Since most of the obvious problems involving hardcore pornography and unquestionable abuse have already been greatly reined in, the courts are now busy exploring new territory that clearly is not well-understood in a consistent manner. The fact that this article is a complete mess seems to be a reflection of the actual state of affairs. From an article writer's perspective, this is a toughy since the subject matter is about as vaguely defined as can be. That's partly intentional (on the part of the law), since we're all talking about things we're not allowed to see. To be perfectly honest, I'll be surprised if this article EVER makes sense. We might as well be writing an article on alchemy. Qwasty 03:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The reason reallife child pornography is especially icky, is because it depicts commiting a crime. It is not the equivalent of watching a violent movie and becoming a violent kid. It's the equivalent of a beheading/terrorist video, the equivalent of following around a gang of youngsters and witness how easy it is to steal stuff. There's no punishing the criminal in the end, no "crime doesn't pay", no out-of-daily-experience motive for violence given or an advisory about the difference between fiction and reality. -Ados 05:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where does free speech truly end? 

message: There should be a section on enforcement ( i.e sting operations, international cooperation etc.)
Signed Timothy Scriven
: I agree. Sting operations (online in particular) are becoming far more prevalent by law enforcement for tracking down people in possession of child pornography (as well as tracking down people who solicit minors for sexual acts). --Rkrause 22:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enforcement section

message: Word selection in various sections reveals POV i.e "Most people are prosecuted MERELY" ( capitals added). Merely carries connotations that this treatment is unreasonable and/or that their crimes are minor.
The content tend's to favour child pornography ( or at least a more liberal attitude to it) quantitively. For example placing a few ancedotes about unreasonable reactions to the threat of child pornography would not be POV but almost the entire section on the social perception of child pornography is constituted by this. Quote's given in the article are almost all the sorts of quotes that would be cited by those who are libertrain towards child pornography and those in favour of child pornography.
Sorry I forgot again. The above statement is signed by Timothy Scriven.
: these edits by  seem to introduce further POV to the article.  The new sections are fairly well written and have a few references, but overall take a very anti-current-state-of-affairs tone.  Cleaning it up is a big job that I don't have time for, unfortunately, but I wanted to point it out.  Powers T 20:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the compliments on my writing. If you could go into more detail about what you think needs to be revised, I'll take a stab at fixing it, though I'd rather move on to polishing older sections of the article first before I begin rewriting new material. Qwasty 03:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's just it -- most of it needs to be revised wholesale.  The quality is not the issue, it's the POV it displays in sum.  I can't point to a single sentence and say "This sentence is not NPOV"; it's the whole thing taken together.  Powers T 13:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think there's a few phrases that could use a cite or be slightly revised, but I don't see a wholesale Point Of View problem. The new sections contain very detailed and very clear primary-source references straight from the courts themselves. It doesn't get much better than that. Qwasty 14:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, you're confusing having reliable sources with maintaining a NPOV.  Powers T 15:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As far as I know there's no source more authoritative than the courts. If you think that something else needs to be added to balance the article, you'll have to be specific about what it is. Qwasty 17:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: About the usage of the words "mere" and "merely" - They seem to be the de facto standard terminology when referring to possession offenses ("mere possession"), and maybe more things that I haven't bothered to search for yet. I don't think the word downplays the seriousness of the offense, it's mostly used to indicate that possession is the only requirement for a conviction. Qwasty 20:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reasons for NPOV dispute tag

message: "As with all cases, courts must interpert the law and apply it to the specifics of a case.  As such, the final decision as to whether an image is pornographic is made by a judge.  Since the context of the image may indicate the sexual nature of the image, the nature or even name of the website on which it is displayed may be considered ."
*I guess this is OK, although (1) Of course judges interpret the law; that's what judges do (2) shouldn't it be judges or juries? Not sure. Otherwise OK, the last sentence is good and useful in my opinion.
"There have been instances where images have been ruled to be pornographic, even when there was no nudity involved ."
*It's very clearly pointed out in the immediately preceding section that nudity is not the only or even the primarly indicatior of whether images fall under the law. Rather lascivous intent etc. is used. So this sentence is redundant as well as  polemic and must go.
"Free speech protections do not necessarily apply to child pornography."
*I think it safe to say the sole purpose of this sentence is polemic. Free speech protection has never been absolute and has never applied to state secrets, libel, incitement to crime, etc. -- and not to pornography as defined under the law. Sentence has to go.
"Even in nations where the burden of proof is ostensibly on the prosecution, rather than the defendant, there are still many child pornography rulings that are made without proving the critical issue of the age of the person depicted in the images."
*I think this is bullshitting. Of course it's not possible to prove the precise age of the person depicted. To do that, you would have to track down the individual (who may live in Russia or wherever, and of course be deliberately anonymized and hidden from investigators) along with verifiable birth information. Should prosecutions that are unable to do this be dropped? That is clearly the unstated message of the sentence. But that would result in the dropping of almost all prosections, effectively legalzing the practice, which would thwart the intent of the legislation. Therefore prosecutors and judges make good-faith best efforts to arrive at the most likely age, duh. Anyway for these reasons this sentence has got to go.
While some laws seem to exempt prosecutors from being required to prove the age (and hence, the identity) of the person depicted (Utah Code, Title 76, Chapter 05a, Sexual Exploitation of Children (USA)), efforts are made to identify victims to bolster a prosecution .
*See above. Much as the person who wrote this obviously believes and wishes that prosections could be made almost impossible by this horrible lack of requirement to prove age, this ain't the place to go on about it. Removed.
When the law prohibits the distribution of child pornography, the evidence of the case may be largely inaccessible to the defense, and specifically unavailable for publishing to as-yet unknown individuals who may be able to identify the depicted person.
*WTF? As far as I know no evidence my be presented in any case in the US where the defense is not permitted to examine the evidence. (An exception is being claimed for state secrets regarding terrorism suspects, I'm not sure what the status of that is right now.) It's just not clear what "publishing to as-yet unknown individuals who may be able to identify the depicted person" means here. What does "yet-unknown" in this case? I think the person is saying that there have been one or more cases where the defense was not allowed to show the images to persons who might have been able to identify and therfore help determine the actual age of the person in the image. That's possible, I guess. If so it needs to say that. Removed pending rewrite and, especially, citation.
OK that leaves the first paragraph only. Herostratus 07:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I heard someone say once that "all criticism of the government is child pornography". In keeping with that spirit, the cites you're looking for have already been removed. Qwasty 16:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you sure that person didn't say, "All criticism, of anything, is by nature POV and has no place in a Wikipedia article"? DanB†DanD 17:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  One man's facts is another man's criticism. Qwasty 17:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not really, no. DanB†DanD 19:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitional Issues section 

message: I heard somewhere that in the United States, they were revising if anime, or drawings of children, should be considered Child Porn. I was just wondering if Shotacon and Lolicon have been dubbed illegal or if this accusation is true.
: It is not currently clear. The supreme court recently struck down a law that would have criminalized such "art", but many states still have those laws, and they're adding more. Just to err on the side of caution, I would consider any such depiction of a child illegal until those laws are repealed or clarified. It seems that for every law struck down, there's many more to take it's place, and the overall trend is towards much tighter restrictions. There's a lot of debate going on about parents taking pictures of their kids at school, for example. I don't know of any recent instances where someone has been arrested for Japanese cartoons, but some laws allow it, and so if you're not 100% sure, it should be considered illegal for now. Qwasty 16:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're looking for advice on the law to guide your actions, you may want to consult a lawyer.  Another place to ask questions is Wikipedia:Reference desk, since talk pages are mostly for discussing changes to the aritcle.  Thanks and welcome to Wikipedia!  --TeaDrinker 16:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I have edited the phrase "certain council-owned properties" to read "public swimming pools" under the "Social Perception" section. The article cited clearly states that the photography bans applied to pools, which is noteworthy considering how little clothing is worn by the athletes involved. I think it would be dishonest to not make this distinction in the text of the article. 67.80.230.158 11:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Council-owned properties" 

message: There's lots of language here that asserts a particular point of view is supported by "studies." It would skirt POV even if it were sourced, but without sources it's even more so. In a couple days, I'm going to be cutting stuff left with a fact tag. DanB†DanD 02:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To chime in here, I tend to think we should move the unsourced statements to the talk page, but delete from the article.  Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this big task.  --TeaDrinker 03:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Make with the cites, plz. 

message: I stumbled onto the word "hussyfan" and came to wikipedia for triyng to discern his meaning, but it redirects me to the child porn page. I searched for this word, but it seems it isn't even mentioned in the entire page. Why a word redirects to an article that not makes mention of it? I still not know what or who "hussyfan" is exept that it aparently has to do with kiddie porn. If the word redirects here, don't should it be mentioned at least once with a minimum explanation of his meaning? I guess a single sentence saying "convicted child molester" or "raided child porn website" or whatever will sufice. Or if because the delicate nature of the subject, the meaning of the word cannot be explained without risking legal problems, should'n be the redirect removed? It seems odd that a word takes you to a page where you cannot find information about it.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.59.34.38 (talk • contribs) .
: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Child pornography search terms contains the relevant discussion.  You may have a good point, though.  Powers T 00:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "hussyfan" redirects here? 

message: The following material was just added to the Germany section:
*"In reality, child nudity and what in other countries would be considered child pornography is widely accepted and tolerated in Germany. Such images often appear in German mainstream media, in cinema and on TV. To mention two internationally known examples: The Guenther Grass novel "Die Blechtrommel" (Tin Drum)and Oscar winning movie by the same name contains several scenes with child sex (leading to the latter to be banned in Oklahoma). The bi-weekly mass magazine for teenagers "Bravo" (and its official website http://www.bravo.de) has had quite explicit nude photographs of minors in sexual situations since 1965, in its "Dr Sommer" section, all in the interest of sex education, and accepted by the public, the educational establishment, the German government and even the churches. The nude models on and in their general interest mass illustrated weeklies are frequently under 18, as young as 12."
I fact-tagged the heck out of this, and I find it dubious in the extreme. Is it true that laws mentioned in the Germany section are basically ignored? If true, that should be made clear. The Bravo web site looks like it publishes magazines similar to Sixteen and Tiger Beat in the USA - material about various teen-oriented pop stars and so forth. It would seem odd to me if this magazine also published child porn, but who knows about Germans. Is the "Dr Sommer" section a health section, or a how-to sexuality section for preteens and young teens, or just prurient, or what? What about other "mainstream media" and "TV" mentioned? Do they really show on TV what would be considered child porn in most countries? Or is the poster confusing child porn with depictions used for medical and health reasons, or what? Herostratus 18:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I clicked around the site, and it certainly wasn't porn. It would raise eyebrows in the U.S., but didn't seem at all unusual for most of Europe or Latin America. I can't imagine it leading to prosecution anywhere. DanB†DanD 00:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I actually stumbled upon some Bravo magazines in our school once, and it's not child pornography. It's children posing all nude (showing genitals and all). The pose in question is usually just standing up, arms crossed, or something like that. The poses are all done with parental permission. I don't know if that would be legal to have in youth magazine in the USA, but that's what it is anyway. Hardly what at least Europeans associate with child porn anyway. Not more porn than what you may see on a European beach. I can't really see the poses for "medical reasons" though. I guess it's part done to see what a fellow kid may look like (the mag is at least officially sold for kids), and part because although not sex, nudity sells. -- 213.114.118.22 17:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germany 

message: (FyiFoff 22:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that's kind of disturbing and the first time I hear about this Tanner scale. I thought they needed age proof for these things, at least if it's not blindingly obvious from e.g sex development. With 100% genital shaving down to the last straw and the occasional slim AA cup model, you'd wonder what use that scale would be of anyway. -- 213.114.118.22 17:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tanner Scale