Talk:Sacrament (LDS Church)

message: The way this is worded makes it sound like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints use of water is an exception, but this seems misleading since they dwarf all other LDS denominations in size. Its accurate, but the COFCOLDS is the only Restorationist sect most people have heard of (maybe the Community of Christ. To say "most denominations use grape juice except, well, those guys in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints" when thats who most people know/care about. I would say it should read something like "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the largest Mormon denomination, uses water, but most of the smaller groups in the movement use grape juice". Or wine, if they do, but do any Mormons use wine? Carolynparrishfan 16:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: From a historical and doctrinal perspective, I'm not sure I can agree in good conscience. From 1830-1912, the church did administer wine (some congregations as late as 1922). That is about half of the LDS church's history. In addition, of the 20 million or so adherents to the Latter Day Saint movement, about 13 million (a little over half) only use water today (the LDS Church). The rest predominently use "wine" of some sort. So your point may be true TODAY, but it wasn't a hundred years ago for sure. And the revelations don't state water, they state wine. Historically and culturaly, water is an exception to the rule. In addition, this article is about the sacrament within the Mormonism movement, so the reading has to be broad enough to cover all sects in the movement. If you'd like to create a specific section in the article about the sacrament in the LDS church, go for it. The article is in much need of a clean-up anyway. Just try to keep the LDS/Mormonism distinction clear. -Visorstuff 17:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there really 20 million people in all the Latter Day Saint movement? That number surprises me. Where does it come from? Does it include Mormons who believe but aren't members of any of the denominations? COGDEN 21:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The number is an estimation of all LDSM sect members PLUS cultural mormons and those who have left mormonism, but were a part of it at one time. 13 million LDS, 3 million of other Latter Day demoninations and about 3 million cultural mormons, born mormons, or exmormons (about a million a piece) For example, those who go inactive and their children never get baptized, but were blessed they would be included in the estimation. Those of other denominations who've left the movement would be included in this list. As the COC has decreased significantly in the past 20 years, this would account for them. I can break down farther if you want? But does this help? -Visorstuff 22:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't think you were belittlign other denoms in the broader movement at all. I think you have a good point that the article needs to address. If you can take a stab at a specific section in the article about the sacrament in the LDS church, i think that would be great. I just wanted to provide the context on the distinction. Will you edit? -Visorstuff 22:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exception? 

message: I recall, but cannot confirm that the use of leavened bread as opposed to unleavened (use of yeast) is symbolic of christ having risen.  I.e. prior to the ressurection, at the last supper, they used unleavened bread, but now it is proper to use leavened (risen) bread.  Is there any validity to this?  Also, given the article about using any food including potatoes, it seems to me that this may not be the case. Bytebear 04:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are hundreds if not thousands of symbols - God teaches in symbols, but the church does not elaborate on such, except in generalities - the bread represents the body, the water the blood of Christ. leavened or unleavened, it is up to the adherent to see teh symbols and receive the revelation tehy need during the ordinance. -Visorstuff (talk) 04:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Leavened Bread?

message: This is a very confusing article. It is titled "Sacrament (LDS Church)", yet refers to other denominations in the LDS movement. Either the name of the article needs to be changed, or this article needs to be edited so that it solely refers to sacrament in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Kristmace (talk) 18:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch; I deleted the material for other denominations, but the article still needs work. Thanks. --StormRider 02:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple denominations 

message: I've changed the wording in the article to "has" and the footnote to "hath".  The wording in the Doctrine and Covenants is the more recent wording the Church has been directed to use.  I figured I should mention it here in case anyone wants to discuss it. Kcowolf (talk) 20:32, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blessing for the bread -- "has" versus "hath" 

message: I've changed the following:
:* Until the late 1890s or early 20th century, the entire congregation generally knelt during the sacramental prayers. Modern practice, against 2 scriptural witnesses, D&C 20:76 http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.76?lang=eng and Moroni 4:2,http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/4.2?lang=eng and with no further revelatory scripture, is that only the individual giving the prayer kneels while congregants remain seated.
to
:* Until the late 1890s or early 20th century, the entire congregation generally knelt during the sacramental prayers, consistent with D&C 20:76http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.76?lang=eng and Moroni 4:2http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/4.2?lang=eng. More recent direction from church leaders only requires that the individual giving the prayer kneel.http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings?lang=eng#20.4.3
Regarding the reference to Moroni 4:2, Moroni 4 is describing ancient practice, while D&C 20 is direction about how it is to be performed in modern times, so it doesn't seem right to say that the church is acting "against" Moroni 4.  It could similarly be said that the church is acting "against" 3 Nephi 11:25 by not using that wording in the baptismal ordinance, however the wording the church uses follows the commandment given in D&C 20:73http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.73?lang=eng#72.
Regarding the reference to D&C 20:76, I agree that there is "no further revelatory scripture" (emphasis mine) -- that is, nothing has been added to the Standard Works -- saying that the congregation doesn't need to kneel during the prayers.  However, the newest version of Handbooks 1 and 2 was stated to be "the most current interpretations and procedural directions of the Church’s highest authorities", and the church leaders claim inspiration while writing and approving it.
I wasn't able to find anything on the church website stating when or how the practice changed.  More research into that might indicate how or to what extent revelation was involved in the decison, even if it didn't result in "new scripture".  Kcowolf (talk) 03:22, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kneeling during Sacrament prayers