Wikipedia talk:Deletion of user subpages

message: This vote is now closed. 15 voted in favour and 13 against, and IMO there is no consensus. Andrewa 03:11, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The vote

message: # Andrewa 17:53, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Accept

message: # -- orthogonal 14:20, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Reject

message: #Michael Snow 16:30, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral

message: This is a proposed policy.
The procedure I suggest is as follows. We will edit this page as a proposed policy for two weeks, to get it as good as possible. We will then freeze (but I hope not need to protect) the project page, and have a vote here on the talk page as to whether the policy is to be adopted. At this stage the notice at the top of the page will be updated to reflect its status. 
If consensus is reached in another two weeks, we will consider the policy adopted, and then (and only then) will make corresponding changes in existing policy pages. At this stage the notice at the top of the page will be removed.
It may even be that this page is eventually merged into other policy pages, although I doubt it. But that's fine. The goal for the moment is to develop and authorise this particular policy. Once this is done the work of integrating it with existing policies etc begins.
Please think carefully about any changes you make. Trivial edit or revert wars are not a good idea. Page moves in particular can create a real mess. Let's discuss such things here before doing them. But on the other hand be bold in editing the page as well. Just be prepared to take it gracefully and come here to talk if someone reverts you.
It's now August 22, so the project page freeze takes place on September 5, and the vote concludes on September 19. It doesn't matter what time. These dates are also subject to discussion at this stage, like the page name and everything else. And it doesn't need to be me who does this. If I get under a bus or just sleep in and you think this process should happen, please go right ahead and do it. 
As a discussion page, this page should be edited in thread mode, using indents and signing contributions, with a few exceptions such as adding a wikilink to see also below. As a policy page, the project page itself should be edited in document mode, leaving a neat and integrated result. Andrewa 20:27, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I was using the term "evidence" to mean "indicative".  I probably misused the term.  In any case, it seems like you're saying this is merely a straw poll.  anthony (see warning) 13:42, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Process

message: Anthony asked What is to be considered evidence of consensus? 100%?  80%?  51%? (see here for why I repeat this text). In reply, may I say that all of these might be evidence, but even 80% is not proof, and all of them might also be evidence that consensus has not been reached, but again not proof. Obviously 51% is better evidence against consensus, pretty close to proof in fact but even then I'd want to look at other factors.
There is room for discussion of whether consensus has been reached after the vote closes, and this is what will probably happen. I think it's worth a few days' delay to do this, but it does depend on the vote, and not just how many people vote and how they vote but lots of other things too. 
The Uniting Church in Australia, to which I belong, has been using consensus decision making for some years in most of our formal decisions, particularly in business meetings at state and national level. But here I'm feeling my way a bit. I'm very interested in what will happen, and also what is already happening and has already happened. Andrewa 06:40, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I was using the term "evidence" to mean "indicative".  I probably misused the term.  In any case, it seems like you're saying this is merely a straw poll.  anthony (see warning) 13:42, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Consensus

message: Initially based on Wikipedia_talk:Votes_for_deletion#Deleting_user_subpages
Until recently, user subpages to be deleted were listed on VfD. But this has never worked terribly well. There's a slightly different procedure required, as the user should always be approached first and asked to correct the problem. If they don't, then that means there is a dispute, so perhaps mediation or arbitration are a more logical next step. 
But whatever the next step, it should not be VfD. The three user pages recently listed have very much lowered the tone of cooperation and focus on the goal that generally makes the whole VfD system workable, and which is essential if the current system is to keep working as Wikipedia grows. 
These discussions should take place somewhere else. There is no hope of making them less traumatic or more focussed, they will stay long, prone to personal attacks and bad language, and a magnet for those wanting to radically change or even destroy Wikipedia. 
The skill set and mindset required are significantly different to that required for VfD. VfD mostly calls for detailed hard work unearthing obscure facts. User subpages call for diplomacy, a thick skin, a generous nature and an exceptional dedication to the project goals. 
Angela suggested using RfC rather than creating a new page and procedure for this. This suggestion has been strongly supported. It's far better if we don't need to create a new page. A new page needs a crew of people to support it. 
I don't think it has ever been really clear whether or not user subpages qualified for VfD. We have done it, I've even nominated a few myself and I've voted to delete several, but that's more because of what the policy doesn't say. 
One advantage of the RfC solution is that there's already a procedure in place requiring two people to have attempted to contact the user before listing, and these two are required to provide details of their attempts. In several debates recently, there had been no attempt to contact the user before listing the page for deletion.
To implement this, we need three things:
#A section for user subpages in RfC, with a clear procedure to be followed if the consensus is to delete.
#A note in the Wikipedia:deletion policy and a couple of other places to say that this is how user subpages are to be proposed for deletion.
#Possibly a new policy page. 
I've created a short policy page. It was harder than I thought it would be and needs work still. We will see how it grows. I think it can be a useful way of approving the policy even if it stays short and is soon merged into other pages. We don't want more or longer policy pages than we need, and IMO we have far too many policy pages many of them far too long already.
One outstanding matter that I know needs work is the business of copyvios, but I've done all I can for the moment. I'll get back to it in the next few days. Andrewa 21:20, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rationale

message: There is nothing in this proposal that is intended to in any way undercut the more general proposals that are also under debate to reform VfD. I support these discussions. This is just a first step and IMO a relatively simple (!!!) reform. 
Nor will it be set in concrete if it is accepted. There is a potential problem in that if this is approved by vote, it will be more difficult to change it without another vote. But IMO more minor changes to the RfC process could be still authorised by consensus on its talk page, without another formal procedure with preannounced dates and all that. This isn't a court of law. 
As for a renaming or restructuring of VfD, I think that should go to some sort of vote in any case, and this proposal has little impact on that anyway. Andrewa 19:47, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A more general review of deletion

message: How will we spell out what is unrelated to Wikipedia and what is not? Perhaps we should be evaluating this based on the user's conduct as well — if it's clear the user is not acting in good faith in their edits, then that should be a reason for deletion, presuming they create an page unrelated to Wikipedia in their user space. Otherwise, trolls could put up a lot of interesting pages for deletion based on this criteria. Comments? Johnleemk | Talk 16:55, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I'm happy to leave this vague at present, and clarify it as needed. I agree that a user's contribution record is relevant, and that we should take account of it, and I think we already do and will continue to do so. If you'd like to have a go at spelling this out by all means do, but I think you'll find it very difficult. IMO spelling things out that are already well understood in the community risks giving the trolls more weapons to use, for little if any benefit. Andrewa 20:00, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of abuse?

message: After some thought, I've decided not to try to make a template for this for the moment. I don't think it will be common, and we can proceed on the basis of common sense when it happens. In fact in general, there isn't a need for a standard notification or flag to go onto the page. These are user pages, the user is already involved in the discussion, and every case is likely to be significantly different. Trying to fit them to a template sounds more trouble than it's worth. Andrewa 20:07, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyvios