Talk:Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4

message: This article should really mention the error that Neversoft did with Mike V in THPS4. If this isn't believable than watch this URL I posted. YouTube - Mike V pissed about THPS4   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.198.208 (talk) 02:57, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mike Valley Error

message: How come they dont remake levels from this game like they do thps3 is it because it wasnt as popular or didnt sell goood? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.26.22 (talk) 17:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unpopular? 

message: I'll add a section if I ever get time... http://au.ps2.ign.com/articles/375/375225p1.html Iciac (talk) 07:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception 

message: Some people keep removing the sound track (not just from this but the whole series). For no aparent reason at least explain why you are before you do it please.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.217.46 (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, i am restoring it right know.---djsiniestros (talk) 00:42, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop removing the soundtrack 

message: Skateboarding and music go hand in hand. Anyone who has seen any skate video or any extreme sports video can tell you that they set 
all the action to excellent music (debatable), and the Tony Hawk Pro Skater games and a few other games (Matt Hoffman's pro BMX, 
etc.) capture the visual and aural aesthetic. I agree that just adding the list is a little dull and can make the article seem oddly 
edited, so i propose that I should add some notes/blurbs (starting with the first game), to not only convey the points I've made here, but to also give the articles some form of cohesiveness. looking forward to any feedback Magicianbink (talk) 07:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello. Unfortunately, that music and extreme sports "go hand in hand" in not a good enough reason to include a list of songs in the article (the same rationale could be made with FPS' and guns, but no FPS article will have a list of guns - see WP:GAMECRUFT). If you want to include a list of songs, the best idea is to get the list of songs from an officially released soundtrack, formatted appropriately - Mario Galaxy is a good example to follow. Thanks! Fin©™ 10:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

text: The rules say what they say. Remember, Wikipedia isn't a democracy - It's based on censensus, and the consensus here is that this list is inappropriate, and we've pointed to the relevant guidelines, mainly WP:GAMECRUFT. Eik Corell (talk) 03:14, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Look, an arbitrary list of "songs that are in the game" will never be appropriate. It's ok in a music game (like Guitar Hero), it's ok if the songs are from a soundtrack (per my Mario Galaxy example) and it's ok if just a few are mentioned ("The game includes music by A and B"). If you want to work on it (and it'll take more than a few minutes), then the best idea is probably create a temp page in your own user space and go from there. Thanks! Fin©™ 09:25, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Also, to say "i'll have it ready soon" is not a valid reason to keep it - like I say, if you want to work on it, create a page in your user space, or even just make one huge edit with your changes. Thanks! Fin©™ 09:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

text: You don't seem to be listening to what I'm saying. If you wish to develop the list over a long period (two weeks), the article itself isn't the place for that - use your user namespace or, in the worst case, a saved .txt file and notepad. Not sure why you're linking to WP:GOODFAITH - I don't deny your intentions are good, but an arbitrary list of songs contained in a game simply shouldn't be in an article, unless covered by the exceptions I've noted above. Thanks! Fin©™ 11:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

text: You're still not listening to what we're saying. Please stop re-adding the list - The soundtrack is not notable enough for inclusion. The same goes for first-person shooters for example - Lists of weapons will be deleted per the WP:GAMECRUFT policy, unless they are somehow intrinsically linked to the gameplay itself, one example being Quake, where the rocket launcher helps players to navigate the map. How does the soundtrack to this game stand out? Has it received any notable third-party coverage? In order for something to be included in Wikipedia, it must be supported by reliable sources. That's from the WP:V policy, one of the most important guidelines of Wikipedia. Eik Corell (talk) 00:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

text: As I've said above, and as Eik alludes to, your best bet is to include a list of songs from an officially released soundtrack. A list of the songs contained in the game simply isn't notable. I've given you several options, please at least discuss these before simply reverting. Thanks! Fin©™ 20:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Your argument about users "muscling in" doesn't hold much weight - I could say exactly the same about you - muscling in, deciding what is right etc (though I don't believe that's what you're doing, good faith and that). Why does there need to be a reason outside of policy? But since you asked, here are a few reasons: it would clutter the article; it's not useful to the average reader; it's rather arbitrary; it's WP:GAMECRUFT, it's an indiscriminate list of information. For what I think is the fourth time add the officially released soundtrack if you wish to convey the "audio image" of the sports. Don't just add a list of the songs. This is the third time I've told you that if you want to improve the article, don't just add the information and say "I'll fix it later", create a page in your namespace and work on it there. This isn't about you being a new user, I've read what OutOfTimer has said, a lot of it is total crap. If you added songs from the official soundtrack as your first edit, I've no problem. When you constantly revert, ignore policy and don't discuss it outside of "it needs to be in the article because music is a big part of the sport", that's when the problems arise. Surely the skating locations and skaters themselves are as big a part as the music? They're not included as a list though, as they're WP:GAMECRUFT. Thanks! Fin©™ 21:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

text: No, how many times do I have to say this, there is policy. This is not personal. This is not about you or me. Policy says not to include them. This isn't about people agreeing or wanting the songs included. Some people might want to see a list of all the cars in Forza 3, but that list is not on Wikipedia. Seeing as this is a bit more wide-ranging than I thought (you've edited all the Tony Hawk articles), I think I'll bring it up at WT:VG. Thanks! Fin©™ 21:39, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Another way of looking at this: A list of music in the game is not appropriate, since this is merely WP:LISTCRUFT. If instead you wanted to add a section about the general relevance of the soundtrack in the game, or series as a whole, you would need a reliable third-party source you could cite for this, otherwise it would be original research. WP:OR deals with info that is possibly only derived from the reader themself, i.e claiming that some part of the game is or is not very important -- There's simply no way to tell whether this is worth mentioning unless an expert within the field has written about it. I'm not that well-versed within this field, but I'd say if you can find something from, say, skateboardermag.com or another recognized authority that directly supports the significance of the soundtrack, that would justify it. Eik Corell (talk) 07:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And just to clarify, a recognised expert writing in a source recognised as reliable and verifiable. If an expert contributes to wikipedia with knowledge not backed up by sources, that's still original research. Thanks! Fin©™ 09:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

text: How about this - I'm formating the soundtrack list to a drop-down menu, as it would optimally be anyway, so all it takes to make it appear is to click Show next to the soundtrack section. It's still there in its entirety, but doesn't clog up the article. Eik Corell (talk) 12:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

text: I think this is the best way to go alright - a paragraph describing the soundtrack, with a few example tracks. Thanks! Fin©™ 13:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soundtrack Lists (deleting/editing) 

message: The PS2 version of the game also had a Demo of Wakeboarding videogame included. This should be included in the article, possibly a mention in the game modes section. Otherwise a link to an article, if one exists, in a see also section should suffice.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.218.144 (talk) 03:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro Wakeboarding game demo 

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thread_title:  External links modified