Talk:The Case for a Creator

message: One criticism noted was that only 3 were scientists, but the book was scientific(or pseudo)/philosophical, so shouldn't that be mentioned. for example William Craig discusses the Kalam cosmological argument which is philosphical not scientific and to be fair that doesn't make it invalid. Then there is Stephen C. Meyer who is discussing the relationship between religion and science meaning a philosopher and scientist  are equally qualified in this area, although he also goes arguing against abiogenesis which the issue comes from the fact that he debates that from a scientific perspective on a philosophical, then there is Robin Collins who is a philosopher of science so, in other words he is delving into a topic he is somewhat qualified for. Anyway,  I was just wondering if it would be more neutral to mention a response to this, or if I'm getting to close to original research. Thanks. 12.220.94.199 03:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

message: Someone has been pressuring to get bunch of citations for this page, which is of course a good idea.  I'm not good at citationing stuff, but all the needed references are already found on the Wikipedia articles on Intelligent Design and Discovery Institute.  Does anyone know what should be done re: the references in this case? King aardvark 19:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  citations 

message: Can we reach a compromise on some of the wording here? I find some of the current text problematic--but I am willing to compromise.
"In the book, Strobel conducts a series of investigative interviews of Christian scholars, all of whom are ID proponents, who attempt to refute natural causes for the origin of universe and the development of life."
This last part about "refuting natural causes" seems loaded and innacurate. In any case, the scholars interviewed dont try to "refute a natural cause," they try to prove that naturalistic explanations/theories for certain phenomena fail (I'm not saying they succeed). To say that someone "refutes a natural cause" is to say that the person had an argument with a natural cause, which is ridiculous. There is no such thing as "refuting a cause" (you refute people, not causes) there is only attempts to refute arguments and theories about causes. But I think a compromise can be reached.
What about this instead? "In the book, Strobel conducts a series of investigative interviews of Christian scholars, all of whom are ID proponents, who attempt to refute naturalistic accounts of the origin of universe and the development of life." Gilbertggoose 15:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great. I will remove the NPOV and make the change. Thanks. Gilbertggoose 16:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV dispute

message: :Critics also point out that, although the book purports to investigate scientific evidence for a creator, of the experts interviewed, only Wells, Gonzalez, and Behe possess graduate degrees in a scientific field.
Is the citation requested for the "critics point out" (i.e., which critics) or "possess graduate degrees in science"?  If it's the former, then maybe the tag should be moved up.  If it's the latter - try clicking on the links to the "experts" higher up the page.  Guettarda 15:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will remove that tag. I agree that the links to the experts should be sufficient. Gilbertggoose 16:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first part of the statement is still a problem though - any idea who these critics are?  If we can't find reliable sources, then maybe just make the statement - after all, the backgrounds of the sources are verifiable.  Guettarda 17:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientific degrees 

message: "Intelligent design is generally regarded by mainstream scientific organizations as pseudoscience.[1]"
While this is legitimate criticism, it makes no mention of address by the author.  Strobel writes, "'But I hear it over and over,' I insisted, 'The National Academy of Sciences said, "Intelligent design . . . [is] not a science because [it's] not testable by the methods of science"'" (Strobel 214, citing Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences).  Behe then addresses the objection with the claim that his research, at least, is indeed falsifiable:  "'. . . [Take] my claim that there is no unintelligent process that could produce bacterial flagellum.  To falsify that claim, all you would have to do would be to find one unintelligent process that could produce that system'" (Strobel 214).  While this does not explicitly address the whole of the book, the principle behind the statement does.  To simply state that the mainstream of the scientific community views ID as pseudoscience without mentioning the objection raised in the book implies that this criticism was overlooked by the author and is therefore misleading.
I realize that there is an entire ID Wikipedia article--I'm not suggesting that the debate be brought to this one--but I think that the above statement as it is implies bias, however unintentional.  A change should be made to preserve neutrality.
--DPahman 07:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Though Strobel does object to their stance, Intelligent Design is generally regarded by mainstream scientific organizations as pseudoscience. Despite ID's fringe status in the scientific community, no anti-ID scientists are interviewed in the book.
wouldn't make any sense.  The point is that Strobel pretends to be a "journalist" in all his books, but only "interviews" one side.  No one is saying that Strobel overlooks the facts - here, like in his other books, he misrepresents the facts.  All his books are equally misleading.  Guettarda 19:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ID=psuedoscience 

message: Some critics also point out that the book assumes the Christian God, though the arguments presented equally hold true for any monotheistic, omnipotent, and omniscient deity concept. [citation needed]
Not all of the arguments presented hold equally true for any monotheistic, omnipotent, and omniscient deity. Many arguments are presented with Biblical references and points, hence the Christian overtone. Darkfuzz 20:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: The last paragraph is useless if the comments are unverified - which organisations are saying that Strobel's critique of Archaeopteryx is flawed? It reads as though it was added by an atheist who doesn't like his ideas but didn't/can't find a website that addresses the issue.  "Some critics also claim..." also needs a citation - otherwise I may as well delete those parts... 
Yoda921 04:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism sections 

message: I'm wondering why there is a criticism section at all.  This article is about a book not a discussion about its validity.  If someone wants to hear an opposing view they can simply go to the ID discussion.  There is not a single reference in the criticism section and it sounds rather vague to me.  It appears as a desperate attempt to discredit the interviewees and author and sway a reader's opinion.  Perhaps deleting that section altogether and allowing readers to form their own opinions would be more appropriate and closer to fair play. Maybe instead of a criticism section their should be links to related articles such as ID, evolution, Charles Darwin, Kalam Argument, etc.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.192.117.66 (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because George Washington comes under the realm of "history." I.e. you see old documents pinpointing this fact. Of course, any events prior to the invention of writing cannot be classified as history; (i.e. "Prehistoric!!"). So, theoretically, any form of theorising regarding our origins could be regarded as "pseudoscience."
Yoda921 08:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism Section 

message: Given that this article doesn't cite a single reference that actually mentions the book, I'm tagging this article for questionable notability:
HrafnTalkStalk 11:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability