Talk:Joseon/Archive 1

message: I totally agree that the information provided needs to be checked carefully, and verified  They are NOT facts, merely rhetoric, conjecture, propaganda, and fiction, with little basis in reality -- but, apparently, enough to get some people to give Yi some credence. The information provided in this entry is clearly biased, or propagandized, with many, many inaccuracies that are sprinkled with a few facts, many of which are blatantly slanted. And, it smacks of the work of Yi Seok, a pretender to the throne. Yi is NOT the crown prince. Crown Prince Lee Gu is the officially recognized and rightful heir to the Korean throne, and would be king if the royal house were to be reinstated. Prince Lee returns to Korea about four times a year to fulfill his duties as the last and only rightful Joseon/Choson Dynastic heir, crown prince, and official Lee family head and representative, and attend official functions, such as the Royal Shrine ritual. He lived, essentially, in exile in NYC, NY, in the 1950s and early 60s, where he worked as an architect. He returned to Seoul with his parents and family in 1963, at the invitation to live in one of the royal palaces by then-South Korean President Park Chung Hee. He remained in Seoul until his father, the king, died in 1970, whereupon the prince moved to Japan. His mother, the queen, remained in Korea, to to do work that would benefit her adopted country and people, whom she embraced wholeheartedly and with sincere commitment, and to be buried alongside her husband upon her death.  She died in 1989. Prince Lee returned to Korea in 1996, in hopes of staying permanently; but, for whatever reasons, ended up leaving again., and taking up residence in Tokyo, where is is supported by a modest stipend from the Lee Family Organization and living somewhat reclusively. He avoids political involvement and publicity, but takes his royal obligations seriously, and continues to hold great affection and loyalty for Korea, despite his residential status.  Japan is not responsible for renaming or referencing the Choson Dynasty as the Yi Dynastry. Yi Seok is the one who inaccurately refers to the Choson or Joseon Dynasty as the Yi Dynasty (probably as part of his efforts to establish himself as the rightful heir), and has waged a campaign to re-establish the monarchy, and establish himself as heir to the throne. Unfortunately, Yi has managed to get his inaccuracies published as fact, because articles have not been properly verified or substantiated, Yi has been successful at posting false information all over the Internet. Some of his information is laced with facts... however, his accounts are clearly racially-biased and antagonistic toward Japan.  Such propaganda fosters Japan-bashing and feeds hatred toward the Japanese, which also contributes to Yi's campaign to steal the title as crown prince.  It seems wrong for Yi to be able to use Wikipedia as a tool for spreading lies, historical inaccuracies, racism, and support for his campaign to steal the throne and reinstate the monarchy, with himself as king.  Yi lives out of his car, a has-been pop singer, former lounge singer. He is not supported or recognized as a royal heir by the Lee Family Organization, which tells you how much credence his claims have. Unfortunately, many Koreans, particularly young Koreans, do not know who the rightful heir really is, which serves to help Yi accomplish his goals.  Moreover, because Yi is constantly playing on and feeding old negative sentiments and resentment toward the Japanese and Japan with his special brand of slanted "facts," biased so-called historical accounts, and propoganda, he is engendering racism, contributing to and fostering anti-Japanese attitudes and feelings, and nursing antagonism toward Korea's neighbor, despite the official attempts to mend relations between the two countries and its people. It is time to forgive, forget, put away old resentments, and work toward positive relationships that will help the world communities, instead of serving one man's personal agenda and desire for wealth, title, and power.
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Since everyone knows this dynasty as the Yi dynasty maybe a redirection page could be offered?
: Not everyone knows this dynasty as the Yi dynasty. I've done the redirect now. diwiki 23:07, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Anybody can set up an account and edit Wikipedia: that is Wikipedia's beauty.  If you see an inaccuracy, you can fix it yourself.  Nevertheless, there is a response to the issues you have raised at the bottom of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean) page.  --Sewing 17:31, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: I removed this note from the article section:
:"Note: This section is historically inaccurate and gramatically problematic. For example, there was no said-alliance with China, the Mongols never really annexed Korea, and the word superlative is used inappropriately. Furthermore, Yi Seongye's coup was not a Chinese backed coup-- in fact, Ming-Joseon relations would be strained until the early 15th Cenutyr. Someone please fix this article. I will when I have time if no one does it. --thevizier 21:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed [[Joseon Dynasty#Beginnings|Beginnings]] section 

message: I have removed this comment from the article:
:Note: Half of what is in this section has no direct relevance to the topic at hand.  It should be under the Russo-Japanese War if anything.  This does not explain the reasons for the decline of the Joseon dynasty at all- --thevizier 21:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional comments from article 

message: I removed this section from the article. This material can be covered in Yi Seok. The following comment really belonged on the talk page, not in the article text, so I preserve it here:
:(Note that there has been debate here on succession issues, as in all monarchy based sites in the 20th century and now; there are still claims of Stuart succession invalidating Queen Elizabeth and her heirs; as well as similar battles fought on other websites; a link will be added on this forthcoming setting forth arguments on succession issues from a variety of historians and legalists.) (The discussion below is extraordinarily unbalanced, and blatantly wrong in a number of places. The Korean Crown Prince and Head of Household is Yi Ku, not his cousin Yi Seok. Yi Ku is the son of the previous Crown Prince, Yi Wu and his wife Yi Pangja. Yi Ku has not named a successor, so as yet there is no heir. While Yi Seok's efforts at cultural preservation are praiseworthy and worthwhile, his claims to be the heir are not really controversial - they're simply wrong. Reference: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Korea/korea9.htm)
I don't know who made this comment. Some of this section referred to the family, not Yi Seok specifically, so I left it, but have not yet edited or attempted to improve on it. Demi T/C 00:05, 2005 May 6 (UTC)
Demi - the parenthetic note starting "(The discussion below..." is mine. Not sure how to email you, so I'll note here. Without getting into specifics of legitimacy, it appears that Yi Seok has hired an agent or some such, since there's been a recent proliferation of articles around the net, very similar in content as someone noted above, but factually distorted. --Danstr 20:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The [[Joseon Dynasty#The current Crown Prince Yi Seok within the context of the Republic of Korea|Yi Seok]] section 

message: Joseon rulers did not refer to themselves as Emperors until 1894, after the establishment of the T'ae Han Cheguk.  Calling Sejong, Sonjo, Yongjo, etc Emperors is inappropriate and is not practiced in Korean historiography.--68.160.255.149 15:30, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Comment 

message: Joseon seems to have information in it not strictly related to the dynasty but to the use of the term in a more general sense; however, I don't know enough about it to really judge. What is the motivation for the proposed move? Demi T/C 22:49, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
*As of now, the move has not yet been listed on Requested moves; the move proposal was made by 69.212.70.138. Demi T/C 22:58, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
**Since two months have gone by without anyone expressing support for this move, or the reasoning behind it, I will remove the template.  -- Visviva 23:27, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move 

message: There's no mention of how North Korean history regards Joseon. Somehow they still use the name today... Kokiri 16:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Korean POV 

message: A previous anonymous edit states that Ming China refused to aid the Koreans. This contradicts the information in Imjin War. --Pravit 02:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ming intervention 

message: There seems to be a technical issue with this section.--ThreeAnswers 12:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: there's a problem with this article's title, since the subject is the korean state that existed from 1392 to 1897, when korea's name was joseon. 
# it's not really about the ruling dynasty of the period, which conceivably could be a separate article (e.g. South Korea & President of South Korea). 
# it's potentially ambiguous, since Joseon could refer to gojoseon or north korean, both of which could also theoretically have "dynasty" articles. 
# it's inconsistent. all other articles in the korean history template refer to the state, not the ruling dynasty. if this article is to be about the ruling family, then we should have a separate article about the state & its history, and that latter article should go into the history template.
"dynasty" was probably intended to disambiguate, & is often used informally, but it creates the above problems. i'm not sure what the accurate, consistent, simple, & unambiguous title should be, though. the korean wikipedia link goes to "joseon," and says it was the state name used by the dynasty that ruled the peninsula 1392-1897. Appleby 19:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  title of article 

message: *longest-lived dynasty in East Asian history  
*perhaps the longest-lived actively ruling dynasty in East Asia 
*one of the longest periods of domination by a single dynasty in world history 
*one of the world's longest continuously ruling royal families  
Appleby 00:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the language may seem conservative, but it also borders on weasel.  The problem lies with the definition of these criteria, i.e. "domination", "actively ruling", and "continuously ruling".  But again, sicne these criteria and the language are all somewhat vague, or conservative if you like to call it, they can't really be disputed.  I disagree, however, with the first assertion, "longest-lived dynasty in East Asian history".  The imperial house of Japan clearly predates and outlives the Joseon Dynasty by a large margin.  The page you sourced gives absolutely no support for this. Uly 21:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: longest dynasty

message: I added a section on the brutal caste system employed by the Joseon dynasty, which wasn't even mentioned before.  The role of the 1983 Donghak slave rebellion in toppling the Joseon dynasty should also be mentioned. Jpatokal 15:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Caste is same with Caste of India, I believe Caste is not an appropriate word for describing hierachy system of Joseon era. Yangban has a hereditary right to be a  noble man but it is not that restrict system actually. Joseon Dynastyshould describe more NPOV for this issue. --Alf 14:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rose-tinted view 

message: The name of this article and any emglish word of "Joseon" is wrong. This doesn't make any sense, and its been bothering me for years. Why name Josun "Chosun??" Its ridiculous. Somehow now I've been seeing a lot of "Joseon." Joseon?? What the heck is Joseon? Its a terrible spelling, and any foreigner (escpecially European) would pronouce it "Joe-see-on" This is common sense everyone. Wouldn't it be better to spell it "Josun??" Some one should start a poll on what the name of "Joseon" Dynasty should be. Oyo321 18:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Revised Romanization of Korean.  See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean).  Jpatokal 03:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever is head of Revised Romanization did a horrible job. Oyo321 21:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm native Korean. I have to agree with Joseon is horrible romanization. 'Jo' of George and 'Sun' of the Sun. --Alf 14:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: JOSUN??

message: The 1895 date for King Kojong's abdication contradicts the wikipedia article on Kojong - and is incorrect. He was forced to abdicate in 1907. --Dan 21:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kojong's abdication 

message: I see no reason to put 'dynasty' on the end of the article nane. Can we establish a poll here?K14 02:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposed ove?