Talk:Transhumanism/Archive 3

message: There seems to be an excessive amount of links, attributes, additions and contributions to this article on Transhumanism from the World Transhumanist Association (WTA). It sometimes comes off as an advertisement for the WTA. Please clarify. Dariodario 13:10, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. However, I have removed one external link to the WTA that was in the Overview of Transhumanism section. Loremaster 16:16, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole article reads like a regurgitation of the WTA. Sorry to be honest here and you might want to count the links as there an excessive amount pointing to the WTA. I counted 4 links to the WTA, is this considered excessive? Peace Dariodario 13:49, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has been severely edited over the past few months in order to be less dependent on information coming from the Extropy Institute and the World Transhumanist Association. However, since the WTA is one of the leading transhumanist organizations, I don't think 4 links are excessive. Loremaster 16:47, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What makes the WTA the leading transhumanist organization? Is it the number of members? Is it how much stuff they publish? What makes an organization leading and thus an authority to get 4 links in an article? Please help me to understand this concept. Tchardin 03:51, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said the WTA was the leading transhumanist organization. I said it was one of them. You are free to add more links from other leading transhumanist organizations. The only reason the WTA has four is because it has 1) an article, 2) a manifesto, 3) an organization, and 4) a blog. Keep in mind, I wasn't the one who added these links. I simply defending their legitimate presence in the article. Loremaster 04:05, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Excessive links to WTA

message: Loremaster says, "Old eugenics, racism and racialism are only some of the many views that are incompatible with transhumanism"
This is debateable dude, no offense. Its like me saying, "random arranged marriage, anti-racism and multiculturalism are only some of the many views that are incompatible with transhumanism"
personal opin. only. Reality, this is political BS.
Your arguement goes something like this, eugenics, racism and racialism are incompatible with humanism, thus incompatible with transhumanism. Sorry dude - debateable. We can rewrite "your" arguement to say eugenics, racism and racialism are incompatible with transhumanism. Sorry dude - still debateable. 
Sorry Majority doesnt rule emerging philosophies and science. 
If a bunch of white transhumanists (which 99% of all transhumanists are white) want to preserve the european phenotype vector and create post human europeans that "resemble" japanese cartoons in the human form than so be it, no dispute there. Politics have no place in Transhumanism, the only thing that matters in transhumanism is using science and technology to overcome human limitations, all else opin and debateable. Nothing is more sickening than the self-righteous non-sense that comes out of the WTA by its executive director who describes himself as a trotskyte saying what is and what is not transhumanism. All this nonsense about nazis, commies, yammer yammer yakity yak, its all political BS. Transhumanism is about overcoming human limitations using science and technology. You have no right or authority to tell me or anyone else who wishes to use technology and science to overcome human limitations that we are not transhumanists or believe in transhumanism. I have spent the last 4 years of my life going to every transhuman conference I could afford to go to and all of my closest allies are self-described transhumanists and you have no right to tell me Its in dispute that I'm a transhumanist, because I think the philosophy coming out of transtopia.org is the most radically cutting edge in the transhuman movement. Nor do you have the right to say these sites are in dispute, your opin only. Which is political BS. It took asking you zillion times to finally admit the dispute is over the racial views. Which is the only reason these sites are in dispute, nothing else. Unless your gonna try to pull the secular card out now. Then it would be 2. 
But I can't convince you otherwise, even though you are wrong, so I accept the disputed offshoot listing, even though its total BS politics. Humanism is another BS topic, Ask any two humanists what humanism is and they give you very different definitions. sorry dude, humanism is way to nebulous to be something to try to ground transhumanism in or extend transhumanism from. I see where your going with the humanism thing though regarding transhumanism, i understand where you are coming from. However, dispute is pure political BS. I read those sites, they are 1 billion percent transhumanism, there is no dispute there. Sorry dude, your opin only. If you want to take it out on me, delete the links if it will make you feel better, but it wont change the reality in all this. so ill accept yuor notion that they are disputed, and not fight it any more even though I am right and you are wrong. I dont have the power to change their dispute, you got higher ups here on wikipedia to back you up and they have an agenda - an agenda which is not in question. I hate to burst your bubble but racial, xenophobic and ethnocentric views are not held in the minority, but in the majority of people. Doesnt make it right or wrong, but your politics are def. wrong and it shows - and I love how you say your being generous keeping those links, let me kneel down and grovel, thanks for throwing me a bone - bow wow.  Dariodario 13:15, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dariodario, since you clearly have an agenda, I find it offensive that you keep accusing anyone of having one and therefore will no longer engage you in debate since I have better things to do. You are free to misinterpret this act any way you want. I have said pretty much everything I need to say on this subject but I will say this. The beliefs and acts of a minority of transhumanists does not alter the commonly accepted definition of transhumanism any more than the beliefs and acts of a few radical Catholics alters the definition of Catholicism. So it will be up to others to read everything I wrote as well as transhumanist literature objectively and make up their mind as to what is correct. Loremaster 17:04, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My good fellow, aer you suggesting mob rules? I would object and appeal to your reason we avoid such irrationalism. To see the WTA, just as much as the prometheans, transtopians and cosmotheists who out number the WTA determine what transhumanism means would be a terrible trajedy - one you seem to be working against. Majority should never rule, otherwise in this micro fringe movement we call Transhumanism, the stormfront-collective would be calling the shots if mob or numbers ruled. Something neither of us want. Speaking of agendas, the only people who claim they don't have agendas are intellectually dishonest people. I specifically point my finger to include: daro, slhmvirgin and loremaster. Indeed the vast majority of individuals has an agenda, there is no escaping this human essence. What hypocrisy to say otherwise. What I would like to see is an agenda free Transhumanism article, but what we have is an article which is ball and chained to distinct (left of center humanist) view point which is mildly tolerant of other views. However, despite other peoples criticism of you, your allowing of broad views points on transhumanism (ala disputed section) shows something your enemies would never allow, which is alternative views. Tchardin 04:27, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Debateable

message: Could we get some comments in the article as to why those sites are in dispute? Dariodario 13:40, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since SlimVirgin rightly pointed out that these sites should not even be included in article, I don't think more comments are necessary beyond what is mentioned in the Criticism section. Loremaster 16:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed comments

message: After a very long, drawn out and painful process of asking the same questions over and over and over again, we finally come to the deepest core of the “dispute” on this transhuman article. It wasn't easy, loremaster dodged, avoided, digressed and went tangent for quite some time, with slimvirgin only added to the distractions. We finally got him to come out of the closet, clean and talk straight with us and we finally got to the bottom of it all and to the naked singularity of dispute. It is here where we have hit a brick wall and we need to flesh this one out. This is going to be the greatest challenge as we hit a sensitive truth with loremaster and he wishes to no longer respond. I see this as a sign that we have finally come to the moment of truth in his excusatory agenda of a totalitarian transhumanism which rejects a truly NPOV.  
The dispute is that the transhumanist sites cosmotheism, prometheism, euvolutionism and transtopianism all tolerate eugenics, elitist and group separatists vectors – these sites believe that conscious evolution will occur on many different vectors and specifically support politically incorrect ones. Loremaster thinks that no group of people should be allowed to be exclusive. Groups which practice eugenics, separatism and exclusion are not transhumanists, they are disputed offshoots. 
He is wrong and I will explain why. 
If a group of Jewish transhumanists want to create a transhuman group that only allows Jews as members, and these Jews only want to reproduce with other transhuman Jews, and only use genes commonly found in the Jewish gene pool to genetically modify themselves, and then - Insert your higher technology used exclusively for the benefit of Jews etc… Believing this separatist and eugenic Jewish organization is NOT transhuman because they practice racism, racialism and eugenics.
This is wrong and is a violation of the highest principle in the universe that people should have the total freedom of association; people should have the freedom to choose their allies, friends, associated, political views, and social views, etc... The dispute is that loremaster does not understand that transhumanism will travel along many vectors including ones he DEEPLY disagrees with and these vectors will include politically incorrect ones. Consider that 99% of transhumans are white, it is not a surprise you will find all kind of European based exclusive variations. I would absolutely hate to live under loremasters transhuman totalitarian regime, where as a Transhuman, I am disputed and questioned, to have the right to voluntarily reproduce with and genetically modify myself within an elitist or excusatory group. Wrong. 
Transhumanism is about freedom. Freedom of association for everyone. Equality for all transhumanist vectors. Freedom of thought and freedom of speech. This is what the dispute is about. I want equality for all transhumanists, but loremaster says only multiculturalists can be transhumanists. That is wrong and biased. 
We need a transhuman regime change. No more totalitarianism. We need a transhuman regime that supports freedom of choice, freedom of association and freedom of speech.
Freedom for all transhumanists to exist without this nonsense of dispute. Can I get a witness!
Dariodario 06:54, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The root of dispute on this article

message: User:Dariodario and User:Tchardin make the same spelling mistake with supposed/supposedly (my emphasis):
**How is it that a supposidly fringe organization . . . Dariodario 08:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Touché! Loremaster 15:38, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Same talk pages, same views, same arguments, same spelling mistakes