Talk:Midwest University

message: Everything I can find about this school online, including its own website, claims this is a Christian University: 
:“Midwest University exists to provide men and women with a biblically-based higher education designed to prepare them for success in their careers in ministry and secular service by enhancing their spiritual, social, and intellectual gifts and abilities.”
It is also only be accredited by Christian accrediting agencies.  An employee of the school has apparently been directed to remove this information and make other changes on this page, presumably for marketing purposes. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added a statement quoting the "biblically-based higher education" text above. I'm not sure I care whether "Christian" appears in the article, but I am happy to include "biblically-based" since it's straight from their mission statement. (I've been trying to find secondary sources and I'm coming up short.)  21:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems fine to me. I was advocating for "Evangelical Christian" because until this morning their own description was "Evangelical Christian." Their website suddenly changed after I pointed it out to User:Tbum777, although a google search still returns the original wording. This all seems very strange to me the way they're insisting to change information on Wikipedia before updating their own website. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I find all of the back and forth a bit confusing. If anything, this discussion has raised my awareness of the university. I have this article on my watchlist, though... I am happy to support additional edits to the article.  22:47, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'll hold off on anymore reverts, besides my last. I'd also like to find a source supporting that the student body is nearly entirely South Korean immigrants, that is interesting and unusual. You're right that third-party sources seem almost entirely lacking. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:52, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Christian institution

message: I've reached out to both of the (other) editors active in editing this page recently, but I've only been able to engage with Grey Wanderer. 
: As I mentioned on your talk page, I am happy to facilitate edits to Midwest University in light of your conflict of interest (see 1 and 2). I'm interested in improving this article, and I believe I've done so by adding more relevant information and more citations (including permanent citations through archive.org). You have removed my (and Grey Wanderer's) edits on multiple occasions without giving any reason other than that you are correcting information.
What information needs correcting? What are the sources that support the correction (or removal) of information? You say that you are employed by the university and are being directed by its president to make these changes. Are you complying with Wikipedia policy when doing so? Can I (as an independent editor) help you comply?
Please let's discuss this here or on either of our talk pages. Thank you.  04:06, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits and reversions 

message: here is an article by Korean newspaper Korea JoongAng Daily that calls Midwest University a "diploma mill." It is the only English language source that I can find, but it suggest there are more in Korean.  Institutions such as this present themselves to Koreans overseas as American Universities (perhaps that's why it's called Midwest?) and make a quick buck while rewarding the victims with nearly worthless degrees. I find this practice abhorrent morally, particularly when it comes dressed up with a religious front. I don't generally add this kind of criticism to articles, preferring to give them the benefit of the doubt, unless I catch the schools actively trying to misrepresent themselves on Wikipedia. I felt that they did this when James Song directed User:Tbum777 to add ATS associate membership then a blurb about them being a nationally recognized accrediting agency, despite being unaccredited by them! I also feel that they want to minimize the significance of the Korean student body, because they wish to represent the school as a mainstream American University to potential students overseas. If any of this is way off base, and they are a legitimate institution I apologize, but given my experience that seems unlikely. Grey Wanderer (talk) 23:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your edit. I added some dates and the TRACS withdrawal event for more context. I also moved all the accreditation to the "Academics and accreditation" section. Feel free to edit further or revert at will.  00:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, looks good to me. If I manage to find another "diploma mill" source I may add something to the lead, but until then I think this is the right balance as I would hate be wrong about such a claim, and would really prefer more than the one source, even if it is super reliable. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:11, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. This is purposely written to give the benefit of doubt and time, whether the newspaper's claim is true or not. Regardless, all statements made are verifiable as-is. The more I work with this article, the more curious I am about the organization. Next time I am in DC, I might look them up. :). Thanks for you partnership on this (and in advance through the next several days of discussion on the matter.)  00:14, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! Your level-headed and benefit-of-the-doubt approach rightly stayed my hand for a few days. The article is better for all the work you've done. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Diploma mill

message: If the article is going to emphasize these as academic subdivisions I think it also needs to note that they are unaccredited by the usual agencies that accredit such colleges such as the National Association of Schools of Music and  the International Assembly for Collegiate Business Education. Grey Wanderer (talk) 16:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You know more about this topic than I do. (I’m working on a master’s in education, but higher ed isn’t my focus.) My thought was to have a subsection for each college, listing the programs offered by each one (and eventually more info, like the program history, the construction of the music building and the like). Perhaps there could be statements about individual program accreditations in these subsections?  17:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Grey Wanderer: Be careful of wandering into WP:OR territory. ElKevbo (talk) 17:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

text: Eyer: It may be helpful to review our advice on college and university articles as well as our policy about "due weight."  Articles should ideally be written primarily with independent sources and I'm skeptical that an institution of this size and narrow focus has been the subject of many independent sources so it's very unlikely that it would be appropriate to delve into a lot of detail about its colleges. ElKevbo (talk) 17:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points, both of you. Unless I can find anything, I won’t bother. (And I fear that I’ve already hit my limit of finding independent sources when I searched ProQuest and only found two articles.)  18:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

text: Thanks, ElKevbo, I know I've been flirting with that and probably did cross the line, at least here on the talk page. Do you think any of the content currently in the article is borderline WP:OR? If so I'll remove it. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Colleges of Education, Music, Business