Talk:Ma Nishtana

message: There is currently a large section on the page which claims that there are answers to the four questions in the hagadah. I've never seen this text before, and it is certainly not in any hagadah I've seen. If it has made its way into the liturgy, it must be a custom not universally followed. I would like to add something explaining that, but without knowing more I can't. I don't want to simply say "some add the following..." because that would violate both WP:PEACOCK and WP:CITE. However I also don't want to leave something up on wikipedia that I know provides an incorrect impression, and also violates WP:CITE. I've tried Googling a few key phrases to try and find the source of that quote but I can't. Can anyone provide more information on this? Maybe a source? Without that I'm afraid it'll have to be deleted per WP:CITE, and I really hate to do that. --Bachrach44 (talk) 00:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  the answers 

message: As much as I hate to it, I begrudgingly removed the answers from the page. I marked the section as needing a citation, posted the request above, and sent a message to the original contributor and have heard nothing back. I'm sure the text must come from somewhere, but leaving it up as solid fact when it appears to be a tradition not universally accepted is doing a disservice to the readers. I'm pasting the text below to preserve it. If anyone can cite it, please do so. --Bachrach44 (talk) 19:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  the answers (now removed)

message: Undoing most of an IP edit that claimed my transcription was "overly 'anglicized'". The IP's version, however, was inconsistently punctuated and made choices that did not improve readability either "anglicized" or "hebraized". My transcription principles were:
*he should be "h" not null (to indicate its presence, and avoid confusions like "ha-ze");
*kamatz should be "a" not "o" (often not pronounced "o", and Sephardics are more consistent);
*sh'va should be "'" not "e" (often not pronounced "e");
*kaf should be "k(h)" not "c(h)" (to distinguish from heth);
*aleph and ayin should be "'" not null (to indicate their presence);
*yodh should be "y" not null (I favor "i" when initial but will not quibble there);
*qoph should be "q" not "k" (to distinguish from kaf).
Also the word "even" is not in the Hebrew. JJB 22:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Out of interest, can we also get a translation of the Yiddish audio file? He says a lot more. Knowing German, I think part of it is along the lines of "I've asked X things, and would also like to ask thing X+1", but there's to be much more I don't get. 85.7.200.130 (talk) 21:14, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcription 

message: This material is only referenced to a personal web page and therefore does not indicate why the person is notable. -- Bk314159 (Talk to me and find out what I've done) 02:32, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of information about [[WP:N|non-notable]] [[WP:BIO|person]] who uses this moniker 

message: My name is Ron Abileah.  I am the grandson of Ephraim Abileah, composer of the most familiar tune for /Ma Nishtana/.  I have information that may be of interest to add to the Ma Nishtana article.  But rather than try to edit the current content with my almost nonexistent experience I think it would be better to pass the information to more experienced Wiki authors/
In 1956 friends of the Abileah family published a small booklet /Ma Nishtana/ in honor of the composer's widow, Miriam Abileah, 70th birthday.  The booklet is the music score for voice and piano. There are very few copies left, mostly in possession of family.  The family recently scanned a copy into a pdf.  It was done by a professional printing firm to make as clean a copy as possible of the original. The pdf can be downloaded from here: 
http://abileah.com/Documents/Abileah%20-%201956%20-%20Ma%20Nishtana.pdf
I think it would be appropriate to post this pdf for free access to Wikipedia readers.  Does Wikipedia store compete texts?  Feel free to make this pdf a permanent part of the Wiki archives.
On the back of the title page is a stamped copyright, dated 1957. As the heir of Ephraim I see no reason not to allow free posting of this booklet.    In fact the music is widely published, usually without attribution to the composer.  Many people know this composition  only as 'traditional Jewish music.'
The Abileah heirs also recently collaborated on a book of Ephraim's /Freedom Holiday Oratory/.  The Ma Nishtana is in fact part of that oratory, and in this publication fully orchestrated .  The book was published with Blurb.  A pdf version of the book can be downloaded from here:
http://abileah.com/Documents/MusicForJewishFestivities%202nd%20Edition.pdf
The family has no interest in commercial exploitation of this collection. 
Feel free to contact me for further info
Wikipedia user:Abileah  
Better to use email: MaNishtana@abileah.com   
Abileah (talk) 08:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  More information about Ephraim Abileah, composer of the popular tune for Ma Nishtana, from his family 

message: The Ma Nishtanah is recorded in original form via the Talmud, which heavily predates even the beginning of an existence of the Ashkenazi tradition.
Unknown to most Jews or laymen, Ashkenazi tradition is unique in that it permits a lot of changes to historical traditions predating their existence, such as prayer, Talmud, piyyut (chanted 'songs' or prayers), etc in ways that are more distinctive or dramatic than almost all other Jewish communities that were in contact with the 'Jewish World' in history, around the world.
It is of my opinion that the primarily referenced source should be the oldest operating version, or the 'most original', and seeing as a majority of the world's communities recognize the 'alternative' reading, including the original extant Haggadah from the Talmud, this is in fact the 'primary' version, and the Ashkenazi version is truly the 'alternative'. I will change the page in this way to reflect the proper history. Please comment here for further discussion if needed.
Cakiva (talk) 11:11, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ashkenazi by default? 

message: Rv - source says person, and that is certainly the tradition now.  if you happen to have reliable sources on any change that might have occurred from youngest son to youngest person, I'm sure it would be interesting to add. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:09, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Youngest person/son 

message: I just noticed the unattributed mention of "original printed Haggadah"  by  two years ago. Can we get a citation in place for this? Also, is the translation sourced or original to Wikipedia? Ibadibam (talk) 21:29, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that was me. The seder haggadah (as traditionally it was the meal referred to as the haggadah or otherwise called "first night", and the book was the seder haggadah or just a book), originally comes from the talmud. There is no "haggadah" that exists before this, and all haggadot in existence today are directly sourced from the original in talmud. The Ashkenazi haggadot, as per Ashkenazi tradition are based in the minhag of prior Ashkenazi hakhamim, and as such while being originally derived from the original haggadah, there are some prominent changes such as the text of ma nishtana omitting a single word in the final question, and also changing the order of the questions, as was the minhag of whichever Ashkenazi hakham this was derived from. As for my sources, I am a religious Sephardi who studies talmud/torah and most of my information comes from these sources with Ibn Ezra and Maimonides, as well as prior generations of sephardi hakhamim. I hope this helps Cakiva (talk) 17:44, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I made an error; The Ma Nishtana is originally from Talmud, and is very ancient, and therefore has an "original" script as written in Talmud, and so I changed it to that original script (which is preserved in the Sephardi tradition [north africa / middle east]). The Ashkenazi tradition diverges from the original as written in Talmud and so their version should be considered non standard or abridged, as is seen in other instances of Ashkenazi tradition. Cakiva (talk) 04:12, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original haggadah