Talk:Palestinians/Archive 11

message: It refers to Palestinian "resistence", misses no chance in its chronology pages to count "massacres" of palestinians, and from it's chronoloy of 1967 one would think there was no war and Israel spontaneously annexed territory.  It doesn't even substitute militant for terrorist, it calls them "activists". When Palestinians die on Sept 28 of 1996 they are "matyred". And finally, it calls Palestine a country.  It clearly has an agenda. If this source is not reliable as I assert I will remove all "facts" that use this as a reference in a day or two. Smaug 21:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having a POV does not make a source unreliable. There are no objective sources. That said, the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs certainly qualifies as a reliable source on information to do with Palestinians. See also their standards page: . Tiamat 21:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When a website calls people "martyrs", it crosses the line into too partisan to be reliable. Jayjg (talk) 22:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, I see. Because we Palestinians have a word to honor those who die, in Arabic, Shaheed, and we translate it into English accurately and use it, we are biased. This doesn't make any sense Jayjg. It's a cultural practice among Palestinians to call the dead "martyrs". PASSIA is not an American academic institute, it's a Palestinian one, and it has a right to name its fallen as it's community does. Respecting and faithfully representing the culture of the community it comes from doesn't make it biased. Tiamat 22:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  why is Passia.com used as a source? Why is it reliable? 

message: Plenty of false information here on DNA information. No mention of the fact that overall Jews are far more associated with Haplogroup J2, common in the northern fertile cresent and Mediterranean basin, than J1, more associated with Arabs, including Palestinians, which you are trying to portray as the "authentic marker" of "Semitic speakers". Plus, the research on "CMH" is still inconclusive and hotly debated, despite the way you are trying to portray it. There is no credible reason to believe that CMH lies outside of the main Jewish distributions. Shoddy scholarship with a strong political motivation are profoundly evident here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 02:18, 16 July 2007 (talk • contribs).
:Its true that there were problems with this section which I tried to sort out. For one, it misquoted the data from the line below, and left out important information about the relevance of J1 and J2 to the populations in question (relative occurrence among Arabs, Jews; Levantine focus) while including general information unrelated to the discussion about the Palestinians. TewfikTalk 03:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet this keeps getting reverted. Maybe someone knows of a different Semino? TewfikTalk 02:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omissions and distortions concerning DNA evidence 

message: Because I have noticed that there are some editors who are confused about the concept of Arab and the concept of Arabian. I would suggest you to read this . It shows you how Arabs, and ancient Arabs classified themselves into three categories... Only one of them is the Ishmaelites, cousins of the Israelites. But the rest are really ancient Arabs with whom Ishmael whom were in Arabia even before the arrival of Ishmael. There is a good Arabic book about all this stuff, unfortunately I cannot find an English translation. Almaqdisi talk to me 05:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Almaqdisi. Unreliable stuff simply is not going to stay in this article, per WP:V. Please respect that consensus. Jayjg (talk) 12:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Almaqdisi, according to WP:V, you can use a source in a language other then English when no English equivalent is available. It's not surprising that detailed information on Palestinians or Arabs and their geneaology would be more readily available in Arabic. If you can translate the sections you want to use and post them here and cite the source you are using in both Arabic and English, we can use your source for the article. Tiamat 00:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI: Arabs and Arabians 

message: I have moved the section on demography from Palestine to this article. Logically the demography of a people should be discussed in the article on the people and not elswhere. I have made some minor changes to avoid duplications and to facilitate understanding. Benqish 07:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Demography

message: i wonder why it was deemed "no consensus to move" when, according to my count, 6 editors supported the move, 2 against, 1 neutral, and 1 suggesting we move the ethnicity box (similar to support move).
see: 'Consensus building'. JaakobouChalk Talk 13:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:AGF. I think the administrator noticed that many of the people who commented in the section that was above this one that you did not restore had concerns about the move and had not changed their position. Selectively restoring just this section makes it look like I'm the only one who disagreed, when in fact at least three other editors did not support the move as well. I think you should let it die. Tiamat 18:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add the entire debate if you wish, but I see no reason to because all the other debates had similar outcomes.  --GHcool 19:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, after two admins state that there's no consensus, you feel it's ok to revive the part where there was consensus, while the previous section where many objected is "left out". If you feel that you need to restore a debate then the honorable thing to do is restore the whole thing and not just the part that suits you. 65.93.135.181 19:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to restore the whole debate, I won't stop you.  I'm not sure why complaining to me about it is helpful when its just as easy for you to do it as it is for me.  --GHcool 19:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the complaints are not only about the missing material-- they are about your actions.213.6.3.25 00:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  page move 

message: *  Agreed, I suggest we move the article.
--Eternalsleeper 06:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Question Can someone actually explain how "Palestinians" and "Palestinian people" differ and what specifically makes one more preferable than the other? ("Palestinian Arab" is a no go, it delimits the population artificially considering that there are individuals and groups who identify as Palestinian, but not as Arab. And further, most "Palestinian Arab" Jews - i.e. those Jews who lived in Palestine before Jewish immigration from Europe began and spoke Arabic as a mother tongue - became Israeli Jews ... further confusing the use of this terminology.) The advantage I see in "Palestinian people" is that it specifies that its subject are people who identify as forming part of a Palestinian nation - be they in exile (Arab Diaspora) or under occupation (West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem), in a refugee camp or citizens of the state that superseded what might have been their own. Palestinians seems less precise actually. But I'm open to hearing more about why it is. Tiamat 12:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I believe my question has now been answered and my vote is to stay with Palestinian people; in other words I oppose the move to "Palestinians".Tiamat 
*Oppose There was not a consesus in the previous move debate. Why are some editors so determined to make this move that they keep bringing it up again? And I do not really understand the objection to the title Palestinian People. (Uneless we are arguing whether Palestinians are people or some lower form of animal, who only understand force etc. etc.) ابو علي (Abu Ali) 19:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: Tewfik, would you care to join me in discussing the DNA section? This diff:  in particular. I spent hours reading the articles there to come up with a version that accurately and faithfully represented the material there to resolve an edit war with Jayjg over the issue and thought that the matter had been resolved. I find that your version is a little vague and selective in its presentation of the material. For example, you write: "The haplogroup, associated with marker M267, is a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period." This is true, but only partially. It is a marker of Arab expansion in the early medieval period when it is found in North Africa. Not Palestine. It originated in the Levant area. So your version tends to imply that its presence among Palestinians is derived from Arab dispersal of the haplogroup rather than the opposite  which is that the Arabs dispersed it among others. Is there anything in particular that offends with about my version? Thanks. Tiamat
By the way, could you explain why you also restored the old version of the ancestry section in the section devoted to that discussion above? Thanks. Tiamat 19:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I'm glad to see that you've stopped replacing the data with incorrect numbers (where I also spent hours poring over the literature), as I said in my edit summary, a general discussion of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) is very nice, but not relevant to this entry. It certainly should not replace a more specific discussion of the relevance of the J1 subclade, since this is after all a discussion of the origins of Palestinians. As for the specifics, while the Semino study also discusses J1's spread through North Africa, that is in addition to concluding (as is stated outright in the abstract) that it is a marker of expansion from Arabia, citing as evidence the findings in Nebel's Galilee marker. Of course, incivil comments like these are not at all helpful. Do you notice how I manage to edit without attacking you, ever? TewfikTalk 22:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: JI is a sub-clade of J and Palestinians show high levels of both J1 and J2, which are sister clades. A discussion of both is certainly relevant. Is that your only objection to my version? Your comments on the Arabian expansion do not address my concerns above of how this is an oversimplifcation that tends to lead the reader to false conclusions. Tiamat 09:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: There's a problem with this part: 
"Bernard Lewis writes that, "In terms of scholarship, as distinct from politics, there is no evidence whatsoever for the assertion that the Canaanites were Arabs,"[67] and that, "The rewriting of the past is usually undertaken to achieve specific political aims... in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise and possession put forward by the Jews."[67]"
Huh? Claiming that modern Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites has nothing to do with whether the Canaanites were Arabs or not (they of course weren't), so that part is irrelevant to the article and should be removed. Funkynusayri 11:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this sentence misleads the reader as to the views of those who believe that Palestinians can claim Canaanite descent. Other editors like Al-Maqdisi and Al-Andalus have pointed this out before. Unfortunately, there are some editors here who seem to be more interested in proving that Palestinians are not Canaanites, than they are with giving a fair and accurate representation of the views of those who a) make the claim, and b) those who refute it and c) the fact that neither one of these groups can definitively prove their proposition. In the quote above, Lewis is refuting that Canaanites are Arabs, but none of the sources we have for the article (both in my version and the current one) actually make that claim. In fact, Ibn Khaldun and others indicate that Palestinians and other Arabs are descendants of Arabs and non-Arab populations that preceded them (like the Canaanites) that became Arabized after the spread of Arab-Islamic empires from the 7th century onward. Historians do describe the Canaanites as one of the Semitic tribes that emerged from the Arabian peninsula in the 3rd millenium BCE, but this does not mean they were Arab - a term whose use only came into regular currency sometime after the 9th century BCE.  Tiamat 11:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: If you are just removing the Canaanite/Arab part and not the sentence after that, I have no objections. It's non-sequiter to keep it without anyone actually making that arugment. However, the sentence afterward is important to establishing the controversy surrounding the claims and the view of one historian as to why they are made. Tiamat 12:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: DNA Section (two different versions need to be reconciled)

message: Those who are removing material from the article that is sourced, are asked to explain their edits here before or after doing so. These edits: , , ,  remove material without explaining why. The deletion of sourced material without explanation is considered vandalism. Please engage in discussion. Thank you. Tiamat 12:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disappearance of 5,000 bytes of material

message: Hi there Armon. In this edit , you reverted everything I have just restored and new information I had added. I agree with the note you left in your edit summary about how Nakba Day should not be wikilinked in place of 1948 Palestinian exodus (if you notice, I added it alongside the exodus link in the culture section. I think its kind of relevant. I didn;t notice however that it was already there, so I will take it out). I notice that you reverted out of existence some 6,000 bytes of sourced material unrelated to that issue. Would you care to explain your edit? Thank you. Tiamat 15:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Edit conflict) With all due respect, it would be far more appropriate if you instead explain the addition of "5,000 bytes"? You are not only continuing to restore the disputed content discussed in-depth above, but adding misrepresentations of sources, partisan statements, removing citation requests, making sources say what they don't, and pretty much restoring en masse everything that you previously added. Despite your declaration to the contrary, I explained the problems with your version of the DNA above, and addressed your concern about the 'North Africa' bit. Good day, TewfikTalk 16:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No as of this time, you have not engaged in substantive discussion there, as anyone who reads the section can tell. You wrote a lot of words but they didn't address the points I raised. Tiamat 16:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: There's no point in bandying about the term "sourced material"; for literally months in this article you have been inserting material sourced to unreliable sources making dubious politically based revisionist claims, or inserting material that does not properly represent its sources, or inserting original research you've created from sources. I can't repeat this often enough; use extremely high quality sources only, represent their contents faithfully, do not insert material that is unsourced, and, above all, get consensus first. Jayjg (talk) 16:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: No, anyone who seriously reviews the edits on this page will see that your descriptions are unfair and inaccurate. "Taking objections into account" does not mean responding, then reverting in the identical, or near identical material.  True, you have slowly upgraded the quality of your sources, but that's not saying much - instead of citing blogs/personal propaganda sites and romantic accounts written by wives of diplomats in the 1920s, you're now citing book reviews written by ex-CIA analysts/anti-Israel activists, reviewing the works of journalists. And even getting you to upgrade to that extremely low level of reliability took literally months of arguing. Get consensus first for everything. Everything. Your edit history here does not permit anything else. Jayjg (talk) 16:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. What was the point of discussing, for example, the poor Kunstel and Albright source, only to have it repeatedly reinserted? This won't turn them into a good source however many times you restore. What I reverted had been discussed and the problems explained to you at great length, if not by me, then by many others. <<-armon-&;gt;> 16:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Armon. When we discussed Kunstel and Albright, I told you "Find a source that says they are not historians and then we'll talk until then, they are a reliable source per Kathleen Christison, who by the way, is a Mid-East expert, and is likely familiar with literature on the subject. Tiamat 16:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe you should discuss what you want to add and present your sources here first. That way, when it does get put in, it will have support. <<-armon->> 16:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already done that a number of times and I'm frankly offended at the suggestion. I am not a disruptive editor and the sources I am using are not unreliable. I don't think I need a special permit from you to access an article on Palestinian people. I may need one to get to gaza, but not here. Tiamat 16:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, when dealing with controversial topics, you need to always use high-quality sources and maintain a neutral tone. Frankly, you're not doing that. When you do, I'll bet you'll be surprised at who starts defending your edits, rather than reverting them. <<-armon->> 17:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Armon, I disagree. I feel that an editor does not necessarily need to maintain a neutral tone. Is it neutral to say that Israel is the legitimate expression of the Jewish people's legitimate national aspirations? Is it neutral to say that Israel's existence is perfectly viable, and is not intrinsically an offense against the right of local Palestinians? No; those statements are not neutral. They happen to be 110% correct, but they are not neutral. So in much the same way that I admit that statements which i accept and support are not wholly neutral, i am willing to accept that statements describing the Palestinians' views and concepts may not sound neutral, but they may still have a place here in this entry. --Steve, Sm8900 00:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Steve, I think it would be helpful to encourage Users to practice neutrality in their writing, even here. After all, their personal opinion is irrelevant to the article. Yes, non-neutral POV statements have a place in the entry. Nonetheless, POV statements ought not to be statements by Users but rather statements by Sources. Users should neutrally present POV Sources, when suitable, whether the POV happens to match their personal views or not. Do you see what I trying to express? Isn't it our role to encourage editors to be able to write about POV Sources/statements, regardless of their personal views? HG | Talk 19:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert of everything but one sentence without explanation

message: GHcool, you've added this twice now : 
"Khalidi refutes the claim that the Palestinians are an ancient people as a national myth created by "Fateh, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), and others ... in the mid- or late 1960s."Khalidi 1997: 149"
The quote from R. Khalidi on page 149 of his book reads:  ...there is mainstream secular Palestinian nationalism, grouped together under the umbrella of the PLO and represented for the past three decades by a variety of constituent organizations including Fateh, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), and others. These group, which have probably represented the views of a majority of Palestinians since some time in the mid- or -late 1960s, emerge from a relatively recent tradition which argues that Palestinian nationalism has deep historical roots. As with other national movements, extreme advocates of this view go further than this, and anachronistically read back into the history of Palestine over the past few centuries, and even millenia, a nationalist consciousness and identity that are in fact relatively modern.
As you can see, Khalidi is talking about Palestinian nationalism or a nationalist consciousness and identity as not having ancient roots, and not the Palestinians themselves. Like other societies under colonial or imperial rule, Palestinian nationalism and a unique Palestinian identity emerged only in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This does not mean that the people who now call themselves Palestinian were not there earlier or do not have ancient origins. Your formulation distorts the meaning of Khalidi's text. Tiamat 00:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You know HG, I'm all into discussing this. But I gotta go to bed. It's 4:30am here. Go ahead and make some changes. I still have a copy of the diff with the other 5,550 bytes of material that I would like to get around to restoring as well. I'll take a look at what you come up with first chance I get. I'd appreciate if you and others would work to restore some of that material as well, now that  more and more stuff is getting added and an easy revert to restore it will be impossible. Thanks for your interest and help here though. Tiamat 01:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Khalidi page 149

message: Hi. Made a series of small edits to help readers follow the points in this section. Sorry for so many edits, but given the tension here, thought it would be better to disaggregate each move w/edit summary explanations. I tried not to change any information or weigh in on your content disputes. However, I wasn't quite sure how to handle the following two blocks of text:
The PLO was recognized as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people by the Arab states in 1974 and was granted observer status as a national liberation movement by the United Nations that same year.[1][17] Israel rejected the resolution, calling it "shameful".[18] In a speech to the Knesset, Deputy Premier and Foreign Minister Allon outlined the government's view that : "No one can expect us to recognize the terrorist organization called the PLO as representing the Palestinians - because it does not. No one can expect us to negotiate with the heads of terror-gangs, who through their ideology and actions, endeavour to liquidate the State of Israel."[18]
In 1977, the United Nations General Assembly created the "International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People", an annual observance on November 29.[20]
How do these paragraphs speak to the topic of how Palestinian identity originated/developed? Forgive me if I'm being dense. I'm not disputing the content. Maybe somebody could add sentence(s) to tell the reader what to infer from this evidence about Palestinian identity? If not, maybe these need to be omitted or moved to History of Palestine? Thanks. HG | Talk 02:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for responding. What you say about political representation and identity is utterly plausible. But let's make the connection crystal clear for the reader, who may not know how (or want to) draw these inferences. Plus, given the nature of this article, you probably want to find a scholarly source who can say how the political moves relate or express the identity developments. HG | Talk 12:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's a very good point. I will look into more over the next couple of days. I'm sure Khalidi's book has something on it, but we've used him a lot already so it might be nice to get some other viewpoints. The advantage to him is he has written the authoritative work on the subject. But perhaps there's something as good or better out there. I would ask that you leave the material intact until we can find a way to tie it in better, unless you find it wholly offensive and out of place, in which case, you can post it here with the ref so that resinserting with new material later will be easier. Thanks. (PS. Nice first sub-heading!)Tiamat 12:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

text: We basically have only two historians commenting on it, which is not enough to make a claim that "historians disagree" on the topic - it looks like original research. Also, the distinction between a "Palestinian national identity" and "Palestinian identity" seems entirely false; they both mean the same thing, and the latter is shorter. Jayjg (talk) 13:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You make two points I can agree with. First, "historians" may imply a larger debate. However, I think we still need a good contextualization/opening for the reader. Since both guys are cited at length, I infer that probably representative of other views (i.e., not pure fringe) and, at the least, they are making notable claims. So I will propose a revised opening for you to consider. Second, you say the distinction is false. From this I infer that it might be POV to put the distinction in the subheading. I agree and have done so. However, I do not sense that Khalidi agree with you (Jayjg) that the distinction is false. Given his wording, I would like to restore "national identity" to how we explains his argument. Ok? HG | Talk 13:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the difference in meaning, then? I'm not seeing any. And if we use inconsistent terminology, we just confuse the reader. Jayjg (talk) 14:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect the difference is this: Some people claim that Palestinians have some type of identity (e.g., ethnic) before forming a nationalist identity. Khalidi appears open to that claim, so he focuses on the analysis of nationalist discourse. If we omit his wording, then he no longer appears to keep that (non-nationalist identity) option open. Right? HG | Talk 14:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the difference between ethnic identity and national identity, though? Palestinian nationalism is a type of ethnic nationalism. Jayjg (talk) 14:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: HG is totally correct here in his interpretation of Khalidi's argument and the distinction is hugely important. Without it, people like GHcool can insert summaries of Khalidi's work on page 149 (see that section on the talk here) that misrepresent what is under discussion. Tiamat 14:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the difference between ethnic identity and national identity in the context of Palestinians? Jayjg (talk) 14:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This is less a forum for discussing the topic, and more for how to write it up. (Briefly, some trace ethnic identity  to Hellenistic conceptions of ethnos, whereas the national(istic) identity Khalidi discusses is emblematic of modernity.] If we agree that Khalidi finds the distinction relevant, let's keep it in our description of his reasoning, ok? Are we on the same page here, so to speak, Jayjg? HG | Talk 15:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think it confuses the reader to use different terminologies for the same thing. Jayjg (talk) 15:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

text: O.K. Jayjg (talk) 15:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flow of argument/narrative in Origins section 

message: Here' my proposal for a draft copy to work on. There are footnotes in here that are text as well, so take a look at them when you go to edit the page. Comments and sugestions on what to add or remove are welcome: 
Studies in the field of genetics and genetic genealogy make comparisons with the historical record as it regards the populations under study, contributing to scholarship on human ancestral origins.  
Results of a DNA haplotype study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim were reported by Science Now to match historical accounts that "some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times."  Another haplotype study by Almut Nebel et al. (2000) found that: "According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."
Other haplotype studies have explored the prevalence of specific inherited genetic differences among populations allowing for the relatedness of these populations to be determined and their ancestry to be traced back through population genetics. These also suggest that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians — and in some cases other Levantines — are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians to the original Arabs of Arabia or [European] Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.Nebel et al. (2001) report that their "recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool (Nebel et al. 2000)."<ref>Almut Nebel, The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East, Ann Hum Genet. 2006 Mar;70(2):195-206.
More recent studies focusing on haplogroup types have concluded that "Arab and other Semitic populations usually possess an excess of J1 Y chromosomes compared to other populations harboring Y-haplogroup J". According to Nebel et al. (2002), the highest frequency of Eu10 (i.e. J1; at rates between 30% – 62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East. (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001).
Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) (previously known as J-M267 and Eu10) is one of two main sub-clades of the wider Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) group, thought to be the haplogroup of Semitic-speaking peoples in the Middle East.Wells Family DNA Project Haplogroup Definitions JHealth and DNA Haplogroup J Report Haplogroup J2-M127 is thought to be a genetic marker of the Phoenicians, the term used to refer to Canaanites after 1200 BCE. 
Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins exhibit the highest rates of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (Semino et al., 2004, pp 1029) (55.2% and 65.6% respectively),and the highest frequency of the J1 sub-clade (38.4% and 62.5% respectively) among all groups tested.
The J1 (or J1-M267) sub-clade is more common throughout the Levant itself, including Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon with decreasing frequencies northward to Turkey and the Caucasus, while J2-M172 (its sister clade) is more abundant in adjacent southern areas such as Somalia, Egypt, and Oman.  Frequency decreases with distance from the Levant in all directions, reinforcing this region as the most probable origin of its dispersions (Semino et al. 1996; Rosser et al. 2000; Quintana-Murci et al. 2001).
According to Semino et al. (2004), J-M267 (i.e. J1) was brought to Northeast Africa and Europe from the Middle East in late Neolithic times; whereas its presence in the southern part of the Middle East and in Northwest Africa was brought by a second wave, most likely Arabs who mainly from the 7th century A.D. onward expanded into northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002).(See also J1 Haplogroup frequencies:) Tiamat 16:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DNA clues draft

message: "Defines" means they define it now; "defined" means they defined it then. The second part of this paragraph states that the most recent draft of the Palestinian constitution now includes those that weren’t included forty years ago; hence "defines" is wrong and "defined" is correct. Itzse 17:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Defined" or "defines" 

message: Is it just me or is putting in "Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" as a hyperlink in a article about the Palestinian people unnessesary and kind of biast?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddytheceltic (talk • contribs) 15:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not just you. I tried to remove it along with a number of other links that are only remotely relevant to this article, but that edit was reverted. Perhaps this time someone can explain why it (and others) should be included. Tiamat 15:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gilabrand has already reinserted it in this edit. Perhaps he would care to explain how it is relevant or what criteria he is using for the external links section? His WP:OR comment that Palestinians are "proud" of this, is not only somewhat ignorant, but is also an unconvincing rationale. Tiamat 15:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I was the one who added that link among another 30 or more links. I chose all relevant links that I could find without bias, be it good, bad or ugly . I don't see why this particular link should be singled out for deletion. If there are any more relevant links not yet included, they should also be added. Itzse 21:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you have reinserted it again, along with Nakba Day. While I agree with the inclusion of the latter, I don't really see the relevance of Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to an article on the Palestinian people. Is House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict an appropriate article to link at the Israelis page? If the answer is yes, then by all mean re-include it. But I think you will find that that kind of loose criteria for inclusion might result in thousands of articles being linked to this or that page. As I said earlier, I tried to remove a number of irrelevant links earlier. People didn't like that edit. But this is one link that I would to begin by removing, on the way to paring down the list in general. Are you on board? Tiamut 21:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed my comment. Nakba Day is already linked in the main text so there's no need to include it again. Though, on a side note, the article could use a section on commemorative days. Tiamut 21:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: All articles that refer to Palestinians are relevant to this article and I don't think that the link to that article should be omitted. By deleting it, it gives the impression that it is not wanted in this article. I have no problem with including House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the Israelis article. I believe in not censoring any article, even if it says things that I don't like. The only way we can pick and choose which links are relevant is if we can decide on a criterion of what is to be included, otherwise the more the merrier. Itzse 23:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that's a wise approach in that the see also section becomes unwieldy, as we can see here. Take a look at Israelis, it has no see also links. Consider also Armenians and French people, very few links mostly related to identity issues. I don't see why the see also section of the Palestinian people article should be a dumping ground for random links focusing on specific phenomenon that have emerged in its conflict with Israel. Perhaps we should delete everything, start from scratch, and agree on a baseline for criteria. Anything significant enough to the subject of Palestinian people would already be wikilinked in the article anyway (or should be). The endless list of tag-ons is unnecessary. Tiamut 00:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It's fine with me to delete all links, but honestly starting from scratch is inviting a fight for every link included; either all or nothing; I'm for all links but I'll go along with none. We can solve the unwieldiness problem by having them in small script; or other solutions. Itzse 00:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've left only two links in place List of Palestinians and Arab diaspora. I think the baseline criteria for pages on peoples/nations/ethnic groups is that the link be directly related to identity and people and not random political trends and the like. Tiamut 00:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyperlink

message: The recent Genetical studies proved that the impact of Arabs on North africa ( and every where they immigrated to ) is huge ( not to mention the first immigration of the Neolithic period (Phoenicians=semitic language speaking relative of Arabs (The Aramaeans).
Also recent study proved that there is great affinity between Race and Language through genetic studies too.
While Ibn Khaldoun ( a berber impostering as descendent from Arabs) claims that the primacy of the Arabs made occupied countries speak Arabic while the people are descendent from Pre Arabic Stock, this Hypothethis had no scientific proof in the 13th century while recent studies proved beyond doubt that people in North Africa and Palestine speak Arabic because they Are Arabs in Blood. need to delete Ibn Khaldoun ref03:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ibn Khaldoun no longer relevent

message: "in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise "!!!!
This quotation is racist claiming there is a promise? and there is a bypassing? of Israelite existance!! even though archaeological studies failed to prove that Israelites had hegomony on Palestine for a substansial time. Yet this Zionist jewish Louis puting these stupid allegations as corner stones and pillars or tenets of Scientific History.
This guy is old and worthless.
THis statement of his is unscientific racist and insulting to muslims and palestinians about regarding something not existant (the Promise) He wants to impose the interpretation representing 10 million southern babtist and 10 million jews and impose it on 2 billion muslims + 2 million christians and the rest of the world.
Not every thing this old man poke out from his mouth is pearls, they could be goat duns too.
need to cut because racist and defamatory.03:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bernard Louis is sick

message: .
The notion that J2 is a sister clade of J1 is no longer taken. J2 is 8 main clades only one of these clades originated from the mountains north of the Levant (Kurds, Armenians).
The old studies 1996 (stone age in genetic geneology) was ignorant of these subclades.
Over 90% of all J2s is in Europe. The Hypothesis that one of J2 clades immigrated from north of the levant as the Indo Europeans is nor longer taken. It is unlikely that a J2 clade members be higher across the seas than it is origin country. (Semino et al 2004).
You write that Jews have twice as much as j1  ( sounds like twice J1 in the Arabs) and that is wrong.
Need to reformulate that J2 is double J1 of both in Jews.
Also, according to the summary of Coffman study J2 is different ancestries ( each one started way back before History) and Jews have all these subclades of J2. J2 (coffman ) is not semitic.
Only J1 is connected to semitic peoples and semitic languages ( Phoenicians spoke semitic hence they are J1 too)( see Coffman). Need to specify that j2 is composed of different ancestries.
Dear Tianut:
The DNA clues section was about the prevalence of J1 in Palestine and surrounding countries (J1 originated in this area (the only one, while only one subclade of J2 originated in north of the Levant ( remote isolated mountains not considered part of Semitic civilizations).
The addition of J2 to the DNA clues disturbed the irony.
If you are interested still in explaining J2 presence then you have to explain the whole picture about J2 ( that it is 8 subclades only one clade found in Arabic countries that of the Kurds while the rest of the clades are mainly in Europe. You would need to specify the difference between Jews and (Arabic Countries) that Jews have all these J2 subclades ( all not semitic) and Arab countries have only one clade!!.
I prefer to not expand into J2 since it is irrelevant.
In 2000 Nebet ( and Hammer before him) made a study of the suboverlapping of Haplotypes between arabs and Jews ( as if he is not the aware of the existance of Haplogroips by 2000!?) Then in 2001 made an apologistic study that Jews ARE SIMILAR TO NON Semitic peoples in the Middle East than to the Arabs) that came after great criticism from Diekenz Anthropoly blog run by a great genetist.
Either these studies shoulb included or we better get rid of the old (vendicated studies in the article)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.28.120 (talk) 20:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subclades of J2 Haplogroup in DNA Clues

message: (Have removed rant from an editor now blocked, you can find it in history if you're really interested). PRtalk 19:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The truth

message: Are Palestinians really so different from other surrounding Arabs, like Jordanians, to consider them separate ethnic group? After all borders in that area were drawn by colonial powers and almost never properly followed ethnic borders, so is it actualy possible to draw ethnic a line for example between Palestinian and Jordanian? Shouldn't palestinians count as simply part of Arabs? Btw, as we can see wiki article about arabs uses picture of family in ramallah at 1905, which indicates that there isn't any serious difference between palestinians and arabs. Also we do not have articles about Jordanians or Saudi Arabians or Iraqis or Tunesians or Libyans or Omanis as separate ethnic groups(almost all those redirect to articles about states). What makes Palestinians different from these that allows them to be categorised as ethnicity?--Staberinde 09:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you read the article? It does not claim that Palestinians are an ethnic group (though the argument can be made that they are), but rather a nation without a nation-state. There is no article on Lebanese people because they are covered under the article on Lebanon. The article on Palestine does not, however, cover the subject of the Palestinian people. Where do you suggest the subject of this people be discussed? Tiamut 08:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well article is categorized as "Ethnic groups in middle east", if Palestinians are not separate ethnicity then maybe the misleading cathegory should be removed?--Staberinde 16:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it. <<-armon->> 05:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnicity?