Talk:Conversion to Judaism

message: This page is a double duplicate. It should be merged with either Religious conversion or the exclusively Jewish Ger tzedek. JFW | T@lk 23:21, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplicates

message: This section is awfully confusing. It seems completely redundant with the general topic of conversion, but then it talks about the notion that all Jews are Jews by choice in this day and age. I'll try to clean it up, but don't want to do so without giving notice on this page. --Leifern 16:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not many would agree with the notion that all Jews are Jews by choice.  This is a modern concept for which I have seen no widespread acceptance.  It is a perspective held by some Reform Jews, however.  --Geofferic (talk) 21:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jew by choice" 

message: Sorry, I was editor IP 88. Thought I was signed in. My remark on the article history page was unnecessary, I apologize for that. --Yodamace1 10:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IP 88.152.3.199

message: There are significant differences between Orthodox and Conservative Judaism on these issues -- will try to address --Shirahadasha 07:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthodox/Conservative differences 

message: I am shamanist. Can I join the Jewish?
Teşekkürler, iyi çalışmalar. XD kızılsungur 20:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This really has nothing to do with the article... I recommend you see your local, or closest, rabbi.  You cannot converto to Judaism, however, while still believing in and practicing shamanism.  Tomertalk 00:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ? 

message: The webcomic One Over Zero starts as a pointless for-the-sake-of-it webcomic and grows into some kind of philosophical examination of metafiction in self-aware comic form. At one point a golem character, Zadok, expresses interest in his originating faith, but since his fictional universe consists largely of a couple meters of desert and a handful of artificial people, he has no way of fulfilling the rituals required to convert. He is literally incapable of Judaism.
This may be the amiable brain-sprainer kind of thought, or just a dull self-evident statement to those with more than casual knowledge of the matter. Let's hope it's the former. --Kizor 01:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Random but amusing point 

message: *This section needs to be rephrased and/or rewritten because it claims that renunciation can be achieved after the age of majority by "declaring the commitment to remaining a Jew." This, obviously, makes no sense, seeing as this is consistent with adherence to Judaism and would not extricate one from the faith.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Absurdatheist (talk • contribs) 19:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre-adulthood Conversion

message: One possible reason for undergoing a conversion to Judaism would surely be to be eligible for immigration to Israel under the Law of Return (for example if you self identify as Jewish but still "not Jewish enough" for the Israeli authorities granting the right of return). Why no section on this?--Soylentyellow (talk) 20:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Law of return

message: Hi all! I have not read the arguments so far but I will in half an hour (have meeting to attend). I have checked the BBC reference and would say this (initially); it does not say who the author is, nor does it give its sources. As such, I'd say that it is not the best reference that could probably be found, but it may technically meet WP:RS. I think it would be better to find a second party source that states the author and/or states its references. Using a primary source is perfectly possible here as long as you can show that primary source referenced by a reliable third-party. Back soon. :-) fr33kman t - c 17:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps starting with this search at Google Books? fr33kman t - c 17:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found another source (here) that I believe would be considered reliable as well. --132 17:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Without speaking of the relevance of the content, this source is reliable and can be used. fr33kman t - c 18:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I've also found an official statement from an official source about this: here. I will add the two new citations to the article, with the official one listed first. --132 17:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *However, this one is an official source from someone with a vested interest in conversion and therefore looks primary to me. Whilst it can be used to support arguments, it can't be the only reference to support that argument (which ever that is). It would be better if a source can be found that references it, then we can use it, and the primary source. Wikipedia, can't be the first place to quote a primary source, we need  quote the person who quoted it (if that makes any sense). fr33kman t - c 18:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Have reviewed it more. It can be used for Reform Jews, the organization behind it has a widely respected reputation (checked). :-) fr33kman t - c 18:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the help! I really appreciate the clarification and the source reviews. --132 19:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 3O opinion

message: The bnet article is by far the most definitive thing found so far, however I don't think the business network is exactly a RS when it comes to Jewish law. As for most of the other sources you've found, (including the "fly fishing rabbi"), they all say the same precisely what I've been saying, which is that they would NOT turn away a convert 3 times. In fact, the Reform site you found says exactly what the reform site I originally posted said, which is not to do that. 
Anyway, I think we're close to a resolution here, so let me take a stab at a proposal that I think will make us all happy (or unhappy depending on your view of compromise :-)) - it's based largely on the changes you've already made. Let me know what you think:
A tradition holds that a prospective convert should be turned away three times as a test of sincerity, though most rabbis no longer follow the tradition.<bbc><bnet?> Neither the RCA nor the Rabbinic Assembly, the leading American Orthodox and Conservative organizations, mention this action in their conversion policies<RCA><RA>, with the CCAR and URJ insert something here actively opposing it's practice.<ccar><urj>
Where I say "insert something here", a line should be added explaining who exactly those two orgs are. (I'm not sure exactly how to describe them). Frankly it's not ideal from my point of view, as I would think that a Jewish law or tradition should have a Jewish source to cite, but I'm willing to compromise. Thoughts? --Bachrach44 (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Change "mention this action" to "suggest taking this action" and I think that would be fine. Remember that I never said it was a common practice or that it happened all the time, just that it did happen, which meant that it wasn't an urban legend as you claimed it was (because an urban legend would be that it never actually happened, which is quite far from the truth on this subject). As for the "insert something here," I think links to the appropriate articles might be sufficient. --132 21:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Either sounds quite neutral and generic to me. Someone should just go ahead and make the changes perhaps? fr33kman t - c 01:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Whether or not something happens does not make it a tradition. Judaism has an extensive legal system, known as halakha, which comes with it. Conversion is one of the things which would be covered by halakhic rules. Tradition is also carefully defined in Judaism, in part because tradition can become law. To say that there is a Jewish tradition of X, or that X is required, should require a halakhic source. Google searches, blogs, and BBC reports do not decide the halakha. My initial challenge was to find a halakhic source for this "tradition". (As a side note, there is no halakhic source for this, however I can't prove it because I can't prove a negative). I could stick to my initial position by insisting on a RS, but then it would escalate into a massive wiki-argument and frankly I've already spent far more time on this than I'd have liked. I'll go make the changes we've agreed upon above and keep my eyes on the halakhic and academic literature - if someone publishes "the origins of the myth of turning away a convert three times" I'll reopen discussion. :-) --Bachrach44 (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems reasonable. Thank you for doing so; you show yourself to be a good editor and someone others could work with by doing so! :-) fr33kman t - c 01:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

text: In the name of full disclosure I also changed the phrase "A tradition holds" to "There is a tradition". I simply felt that the word "holds" isn't usually used that way by most people, and I wanted the phrase to be easily understandable to all people. --Bachrach44 (talk) 02:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine. Also, I thought I'd let it be known now that we've settled on something that I converted through Orthodox standards and I was, indeed, turned away three times. This is why I was so adamant about not completely removing the statement, but I knew my personal experience wouldn't count as a source. ;-) --132 17:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it would have been OR :-) I think this is a good solution. I've heard of it in the past as well and I'm Christian. It does sound like an interesting idea; whether it is done a lot or not, religion should need a commitment! :-) Take care guys and Happy Editing! fr33kman t - c 17:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

text: If you're still in touch with the rabbi who converted you, it might be interesting to ask him why he did that, and if he had a source or was just doing it because it seemed like a good test. --Bachrach44 (talk) 18:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: sources so far, proposal

message: I have made a number of alterations to this section and I am considering expanding it a good deal, but I will wait to see if I get any feed back first.
Halakah, by definition, is not settled.  Statement removed.
Removed incorrect inline reference to Shabbat 137a, replaced with citation to print source with correct citation to Shabbat 135a.
Added clarity to a sentence (started with "This view..." when two views were in the previous thought, and the later view of that thought was not the view referenced).
Clarified a section purporting to support the necessity of circumcision for converts, but actually referencing a discussion about the necessity of conversion for Jews by birth.
Added cited reference supporting the opposing view that circumcision is not necessary.
Replaced dead link to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities Book 20 Chapter 2 with a newer link.  Not real comfortable with my citation format, any corrections would be appreciated!
Geofferic T•C✡ 09:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section: Early debate on requirement for circumcision 

message: Can anyone explain what is the difference between Hitgairut and Gerut please? Thank you very much :) 81.103.121.144 (talk) 01:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Gerut denotes "conversion to Judaism" as a legal concept (laws regarding the process, the legal status of people involved etc.) whereas Hitgairut denotes the actuall act of going through the conversion (the nominalization of the reflexive verb lehitgayer, "to undergo a conversion"). Dan ☺ 23:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitgairut verses Gerut

message: I've been making a few minor edits this evening to try and clean up some language and otherwise improve the tone of this entry, and this section as a whole strikes me as very problematic. The entire tone of the third paragraph and beyond seems to be far from objective and quite biased against the views and actions of the Chief Rabbi. That said, I'm really not sure how to FIX this problem. If anyone else can think of better wording that might get the information across without sounding as confrontational or biased perhaps you could take a crack at improving this.  
Mrspock08 (talk) 06:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It had a number of citations, not just one - please don't remove it in its entirety again. Jayjg (talk) 00:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you blind? it has 2 one of which is a news article i specifically wrote about. The BBC one , which you obviously did not even READ, is a false citation which says nothing about the line it is cited in in that section!!!!!!!!!! It does not say anything about differences between Orthodox views. PLEASE READ BEFORE making a fool out of yourself. let go of your pride this is an encyclopedia, just admit being wrong. You didn't even apologize for making a false claim about the first revert.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.213.8 (talk) 07:34, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I will add to this that a Badatz (Not "Rabbinical Supreme Court") has no authority in Israel. The Rabanut, which is the religious authority, did rule the exact opposite which is that those conversions are fine. This is all stated in the 1 valid news reference, you also did not read! 84.108.213.8 (talk) 07:41, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I now removed irrelevant citations, missing citation and fixed the last paragraph. Do not revert with out having a basic claim, thank you. 84.108.213.8 (talk) 07:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I had the same revert again while i DID put a reason for it!! what the hell? this is what i wanted to write (and fix later) http://pastebin.com/4dL4u9b5 I will not edit this further when this "missing reason" claim keeps repeating it self after i had a reason there. 84.108.213.8 (talk) 07:57, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with Section: Intra-Orthodox views 

message: I saw this because of a related change to a template on my watchlist. Moved to Talk to try and help.
:Gezel HaGer
:One of the Twenty-four kohanic gifts, gezel hager is paid in the event the ger passes on without issue. Thereby, the possessor of the ger's property is obligated by mitzvah to pay the amount to the kohen. This mitvah is listed as one of the ten kohanic gifts applicable even outside the Land of Israel. 
The English on this article as it stands is in good English, if it is to have a paragraph like this it would need cleaning up to the same standard as the rest of the article. And a WP:RS source. And checking that the language and spelling used in the paragraph is the same as other WP articles and more importantly as mainstream sources. See WP:UE, also where use of foreign language terms in italics is appropriate, the ideally foreign term ("meaning in English") would be helpful to general readers. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:09, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Help with English needed

message: A mohel named Schochet Tzodex performed a circumcision for a dead man. Is there any precedence for Circumcision by Proxy, or any halaka or talmudic justification for the practice? Should this be mentioned in the article on circumcision? Prsaucer1958 (talk) 15:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circumcision by Proxy (Circumcision for the Dead) 

message: This      'Conversion to Judaism (Hebrew: גיור‎, giyur) is a formal act undertaken by a non-Jewish person who wishes to be recognised as a full member of the Jewish community'   should really say a full member of a Jewish community. (Change in bold).  Since not all branches of Judaism recognise conversions carried out by other branches, then it is not correct to imply that an individual convert will be accepted by all religious Jews as Jewish.  Any comments before I make this change?Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 17:53, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conversion 

message: This    'A Jewish conversion is both a religious act and an expression of association with the Jewish people.' is not correct. Rather it should say that  A Jewish conversion is normally a religious act and always an expression of association with the Jewish people, (change in bold.)  Since it is possible to convert to Humanistic Judaism which requires no statement of an individual's religous belief, this change should be made. I will then add a section on the requirements for an individual to convert to HJ.  Please do not bother telling me that HJ are small in numbers, that is irrelevant. Nor is it relevant that their conversions are not accepted by some other branches of Judaism, as this applies to lots of branches of Judaism.  Indeed the biggest branch of Judaism is probably Jews who are not Jews according to some other Jews.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: A section on conversion to HJ sounds interesting. But I have a question, where is the demarcation between HJ and those G-d Fearers who accept most of Judaism except for circumcision? Prsaucer1958 (talk) 19:50, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conversion to Humanistic Judaism 

message: Whilst undoubtedly true this section 
This mistranslation has had profound effects on the status of converts to Judaism even today in the English speaking Jewish world.
Marc Angel writes:
"The Hebrew ger (in post-Biblical times translated as "proselyte") literally means "stranger" and refers to a non-Israelite who lived among the Israelite community. When the Torah commands compassion and equal justice for the ger, it is referring to these "strangers." But Rabbinic tradition interpreted the word ger as also referring to proselytes..."[10]
Angel's explanation of the literal meaning of "ger" as alien is borne out in biblical verses such as Lev 19:34:
As a citizen among you shall be the ger (the resident) who lives among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were gerim in the land of Egypt—I am the Lord your God.
As Jews were not converts in Egypt, but rather residents, the verse is an indication that the meaning of ger is "resident". There is no place in the Hebrew Bible where the term "ger" is clearly used to refer to a convert to Judaism. The closest thing in the Hebrew Bible to a conversion process is the circumcision undergone by the male stranger ("ger") before eating the Passover offering (Exodus 12:48). Another passage which may be relevant to a process of conversion involves non-Jewish women captured in war who could be adopted forcibly as wives (Deuteronomy 21:10–14).
is not relevant to conversion to judaism.  There is too much information here, and it is not relevant.  it may belong in an article about the status of converts, but not here.109.145.12.91 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 19:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I realize that this is a six-year-old comment, but with respect, the editor making it errs in one regard. He states, "There is no place in the Hebrew Bible where the term "ger" is clearly used to refer to a convert to Judaism." This is not entirely accurate. In Leviticus 19:34, the Septuagint translators clearly use the word προσήλυτος or proselytos as the translation for the word ger, indicating that they understood that the meaning of the Greek word was related to the Hebrew word. The English proselyte is a transliteration from the Greek. 47.138.93.197 (talk) 01:43, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ger 

message: The Wikipedia article about Tiberius claims that during the emperors reign around 17 AD, Jews were actively trying to convert Romans, an act which made him suspicious. Is this true, and if so, when did this practice stop (since Jews no longer actively proselytize, as this article states)? LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 00:27, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Active proselytizing in the past

message: Declaration that all "mainstream" divisions of Judaism accept conversion is both false and offensive.  Especially since the largest Jewish organization in the world refuses converts. There is infact an officially Jewish state called Israel which gives rights based on being Jewish that does not recognize conversion as legitimate.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.131.31 (talk) 02:36, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: "Conversions of Children Spur Debate Over Who Controls Jewish Law in Israel"
I leave this source for myself and for anyone else who sees how to use this New York Times summary within the context of the already worthy explanations on this Wikipedia page.  Rednblu (talk) 16:32, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible NY Times summary of contemporary "Conversion" issues and interpretations 

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message: Just a heads-up to those who watch this article...I edited the Bnei Anusim to combine paragraphs 3 and 4, since they largely were duplications of each other. Feel free to reverse this edit if you have strong objections. I also added a citation needed tag, as there are numerical claims being made about this subgroup, claims that really should have a reliable source cited per Wikipedia standards. 47.138.93.197 (talk) 01:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit to Bnei Anusim section 

message: We need to address the fact that under 1st amendment law in the U.S., anyone may convert to judaism without needing to fulfill any requirements. Whether a U.S. residents conversion/adoption of Judaism is recognize by established Judaist denominations varies of course. More conservative jewish denominations would consider there to be a key distinction between a mere practitioner of Judaism vs a true convert. While U.S. constitutional law may recognize anyone's ability to identify as a practitioner of Judaism, conservative and orthodox jews would not consider them "converts", a distinction not considered relevant under the 1st amendment, accept in so far as it relates to whether a particular Jewish denomination/synagogue/organization chooses to recognize a person seeking membership as validly jewish, for their purposes, since these groups have the "right of free association". --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 18:21, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need to have a section dealing with the general inapplicability of constitutional law to private law within United States law. Creating such a section would then require similar sections dealing with the constitutional/private law interactions in all major legal systems. This would not be relevant to the broader topic and would be off-topic. Île flottante (talk) 20:50, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  jewish conversions in the United States as related to the 1st Amendment of the Constitution 

message: Doug Weller talk 18:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian Jewish News on the politics of conversion 

message: The article currently states that "Converts can become rabbis" but the examples that it gives are of decedents of converts rather than converts themselves. Specifically the part that says "For instance, Rabbi Meir Baal Ha Nes is thought to be a descendant of a proselyte. Rabbi Akiva was also a very well known son of converts." and "In fact, King David is descended from Ruth, a convert to Judaism". It also mentions "The Talmud lists many of the Jewish nation's greatest leaders who had either descended from or were themselves converts.", so maybe it would be a good idea to mention said "Jewish nation's greatest leaders" that "were themselves converts" in that specific paragraph.
I think that it makes sense to mention famous decedents of converts but it should probably be done in another paragraph for clarity. Linuxuser9876 (talk) 17:05, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Converts