Talk:Pan (god)

message: ===Reference to Pashupati===
Pashupati does not appear to have horns and there is no resemblance to Pan whatsoever (see this image for example: http://redlotus.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Shiva-Pashupati.jpeg). Unless I'm missing something, I propose that the reference to Pashupati is removed from this section. --94.209.127.141 (talk) 10:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Neopaganism section

message: Pashupati does not appear to have horns and there is no resemblance to Pan whatsoever (see this image for example: http://redlotus.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Shiva-Pashupati.jpeg). Unless I'm missing something, I propose that the reference to Pashupati is removed from this section. --94.209.127.141 (talk) 10:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference to Pashupati

message: Can/should this article mention Caesarea Phillipi, where I have heard there was a temple dedicated to Pan's worship which was visited by Christ at the time when he said "I will buld my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her"   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.8.190.54 (talk) 15:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You may find the connections to "pantophobia" are as tenuous as the connection between Pan and Horned God. Sounds like a Christian university. --Wetman 10:31, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Stupidity in it's best

message: All I know about the subject is what's at the current stub article, but what's there doesn't look like it warrants a merge - the only connection between Panes and Pan is that they look very similar. Are there any other connections between the two? Bryan 17:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Panes was a redirect.I redirected it here, with the added notation "Pan could be multiplied as the Panes --Wetman 22:30, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops. It was a redirect because this morning I moved Panes to Pane (mythology), and neglected to update the merge notice. I'm reverting your edit since it doesn't make sense to me to pluralize the name of a singular god, and the issue of the Panes as a "species" still remains. Bryan 00:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merge of "Panes"

message: It may be fashionable to be dismissive about the God Pan - but there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that He was far more than a naughty God of Shepherds. Macrobius, for example in his "Saturnalia" describes Pan as an important "solar" diety who comprises the light of the sun, everything that the sun shines on, and the sun itself. Then there is this prayer from Plato's "Phaedrus": "O beloved Pan, and all ye other Gods, who are residents of this place, grant that I may become beautiful within, and that whatever I possess externally may be friendly to my inward attainments!   Grant, also, that I may consider the wise man as one who abounds in wealth; and that I may enjoy that portion of gold, which no other than a prudent man is able either to bear, or properly manage!" A thorough treatment of the cult of Pan as a serious Religious phenomenon can be found in Philippe Borgeaud's "The Cult of Pan in Ancient Greece".  User:Durruti36 Tue Jul 11 10:53:35 EDT 2006
::Pan was indeed very important, but waning by the time of classical Greek culture. Although I take issue with him being considered 'solar' - he is clearly an earth spirit. --Kelt65 (talk) 16:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The cult of Pan was a serious Religious phenomenon 

message: Should this article be moved from :Category:Sexuality in the classical world to its new subcat :Category:Ancient Greek eros? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds pretty clear to me that Midas' ears are the ears in question, but I could just have a different way of processing paragraphs than most people.  Anyone have a third opinion? Aeonoris (talk) 08:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see how it could possibly be interpreted as anyone other than Midas' ears. I don't see the paragraph as unclear, in fact. Fuzzypeg★ 23:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorization 

message: Why is there continued vandalism on this entry? Symkyn 06:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: "Boujeloud is a CD by the Moroccan Sufi trance musicians Master Musicians of Joujouka." The Wikipedia article Boujeloud is essentially a flyer for this CD. A purported connection to Pan (mythology), insisted upon by User:Opiumjones 23? too slender to be a "See also" link here: it's simply a poster advertising the CD. Wikipedia is a reader service: a link to a CD from the article on this mythological figure doesn't aid any reader. --Wetman (talk) 11:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  An unhelpful "See also" poster 

message: "It is likely that the demonized images of the incubus and even the horns and cloven hooves of Satan, as depicted in much medieval and post-medieval Christian literature and art, were taken from the images of Pan."
It may seem intuitive that this be the case, but Pan was hardly the only mythological figure with horns and/or hooved feet.  This really needs a source.141.154.48.254 (talk) 03:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Satan 

message: === Rustic Music? ===
The introduction mentions that Pan is also the god of "rustic music". What is rustic music? I find no reference to it on the web. --Coching (talk) 05:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Rural music, pastoral music, peasant music etc. There's also a song called "Rustic Raver" by Squarepusher. ;) —85.178.95.4 (talk) 17:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Link now added. —85.178.95.4 (talk) 17:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  On musical issues 

message: The introduction mentions that Pan is also the god of "rustic music". What is rustic music? I find no reference to it on the web. --Coching (talk) 05:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Rural music, pastoral music, peasant music etc. There's also a song called "Rustic Raver" by Squarepusher. ;) —85.178.95.4 (talk) 17:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Link now added. —85.178.95.4 (talk) 17:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rustic Music? 

message: A common superstition in the Middle Ages was that goats whispered lewd sentences in the ears of the saints. The origin of this belief was probably the behavior of the buck in rut, the very epitome of lust. The common medieval depiction of the Devil was that of a goat-like face with horns and small beard (a goatee). The Black Mass, a probably-mythological "Satanic mass," was said to involve a black goat, the form in which Satan supposedly manifested himself for worship.
Moved this replacement for the better sourced text here, restoring the former text. Nothing re: "goat whisper Saint" could be detected at JSTOR. Anything in the above to return to the article?--Wetman (talk) 21:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Restored original text

message: In the section named 'All the Pans', there's material that was inserted long ago by RammsteinViking in this diff.  Is there a source for this?  Dionysus battled the Indians?  I'm not a greek scholar by any means, but I wasn't aware there was significant contact between Greece and India. Thanks for any insight you can provide. Syrthiss (talk) 13:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't know this myself, but it's true. Overview and sources at theoi.com: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/PanesPaneides.html —91.64.51.196 (talk) 15:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "all the pans"? 

message: I suggest addition of the following image to the article: 
'Young satyr making love to a herm of the god Pan' Bas-relief on a marble sarcophagus from late 2nd century CE. Originally part of the Farnese collection, now in the Archeological Museum, Naples."
http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/gay-art/gay-rome-art/imgSuper/bacchanalia.jpg Israell (talk) 09:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Go on then. Rainbow Shifter (talk) 18:38, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan  

message: ...means fear with hysteria. No sane connection to the god Pan.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.120.224 (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The English word panic is from the Greek πανικός, meaning "of or pertaining to Pan".  It was believed that Pan was the source of the sudden, unreasoning fear that sometimes gripped people or animals.  So yes, there's a direct connection.  P Aculeius (talk) 21:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Panic"? 

message: Pan is the God of the Wilds and of war, he's a stratiton, the wilds require a great deal of knowledge of war and planning, please stop removing this edit. 71.89.245.71 (talk) 05:25, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide reliable sources for the edit. --‖ Ebyabe talk - Repel All Boarders ‖ 17:10, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Although it is true that Herodotus reports a widespread rumor claiming that Pan aided the Athenians in the Battle of Marathon, Pan was not principally a war god and to call him the "god of war" is not an accurate statement. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  God of War 

message: Hello all, 
I noticed a distinct lack of citations in the category "all of the pans," how would I mark that? 
Cahmad25 (talk) 15:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I used Template:Unreferenced section.  See the template documentation for more information about how it works, and how to use it in situations like this.  If you can find suitable sources, feel free to remove the template.  P Aculeius (talk) 16:22, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

text: On second thought, changed to Template:More citations needed section, since Nonnus is a perfectly good source for the first paragraph.  Not all citations need ref tags; here it's attributed to Nonnus in the text.  The other statements in the section are probably correct, but ought to have a source.  I bet there's some useful material (and primary source citations) under Pan's entry in the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology.  P Aculeius (talk) 16:31, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  All of the pans 

message: Some or most of this seems weak, uninformed, poorly sourced and a stretch. "Time to pay the piper" might as easily have come from the fairy tale The Pied Piper of Hamelin, wherein they refused to pay the piper for ridding the city of rats, to their woe; or, a similar permutation goes, "if you want to dance, you have to pay the band," which is not explicitly about pipers, but merely a truism. Furthermore, a glance at a dictionary tells the etymology of the word "pandemonium," a combination of "pan" and "demon," where "pan" is Greek for "all," which I take to be a mere homonymic coincidence -- nothing to do with the mythological Pan, whose name was actually a contraction of "paon" or "pasturer." Thus, "pandemonium" meant "abode of all demons," to which we converted it for use as "all hell breaking loose." To iterate, it is merely a prefix, the same as in words like pandemic or panoply or panacea ("cure-all"). Another point made was that traditional depictions of the devil show a beast-like, horned form. Nothing singular or surprising about such a depiction, given religious histories and patterns going back millennia. Lastly, Aleister Crowley is not a scholarly source: he was obsessed with the occult and seemed wont to equate everything including the kitchen sink to satanism. I am aware that some of my objections are presented more strongly than others.MacheathWasABadBadMan (talk) 03:45, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that some of this short section appears to be irrelevant or patent nonsense.  I've deleted the opening part about Jerome—if he was referring to a human king, then what he said wasn't relevant to the identification of Pan with the Devil—and the Jews not identifying the serpent in Eden with the Devil; there's no clear relevance to Pan.  You're also correct in that "time to pay the piper" seems unlikely to be related to Pan; if it could be so related, a source ought to be found.  And of course while "pandemonium" in the metaphorical sense seems logically related to Pan, etymologically and as a proper noun it refers to "the abode of all demons", and not to Pan.  Perhaps the writer was thinking of "panic", which is supposed to be derived from Pan's name.  You're welcome to add something to the article about the etymology of "Pan", but it should have a reliable source.  Crowley is, as you say, not really a "scholarly source", but as his writing was quite well-known and influential, the fact that he noted similarities in depictions of Pan and the Devil has some relevance.  I've reworded that to make it sound less like the novel discovery of an expert in mythology.  P Aculeius (talk) 04:10, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: "Identification with Satan" section

message: Can someone please remove the image of Pan having sex with a goat. Wikipedia is accessed by children. 
Even as an adult I did not want to see that. 109.150.40.85 (talk) 20:54, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it's not a particularly nice or pleasant statue by modern standards—and it might not be the best choice to illustrate the article, but if so then it's not because it's "not suitable for children".  Wikipedia isn't censored, and chooses images based on their suitability to illustrate relevant themes in an article.  Pan is certainly associated with bestiality in some traditions, even if that's not what he's mainly associated with in Greek mythology, or in modern times.  The image might be appropriate to illustrate that, in which case it can't be removed just because children might be exposed to it or adults might not like it.  Whether it gives undue attention to a minor point, or is a poor or unnecessary means of illustrating it, can certainly be debated here.  But it shouldn't be removed solely because some people find it offensive, or worry that it'll harm children (and it probably won't—you don't protect children by pretending that sex or distasteful things don't exist, or trying to shield them from ever finding out about them; and attempting to do so does a disservice to readers looking for honest and uncensored information).  P Aculeius (talk) 17:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Modern standards vary so much (cf the Florida row over David). You used to need the King Of Naples' permission to see Pan and the Goat, now it travels the world and has been featured by such as the Telegraph, TLS and BBC, and in the British Museum's book of their 2013 Pompeii exhibition at which it was not hidden away. NebY (talk) 18:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of bestiality needs removing - not suitable for children!  

message: — Assignment last updated by Mythgirlie23 (talk) 03:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: HUM 202 - Introduction to Mythology

message: Here's another recent source: Robichaud, Paul, Pan: The Great God's Modern Return (2021) . Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 09:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Might help if you indicated precisely what it's a source for.  It's an extensive article with lots of sources, ancient and modern, so general sources aren't really needed.  If it says something about a specific fact or set of facts that aren't already adequately covered or cited, feel free to cite this in the article itself.  P Aculeius (talk) 11:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another source