Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 4

message: The whole neurological section is byfar the largest covering of a single topic among effects, yet it is perhaps the area with the least prominence in the literature, and many results are quie debated and new. There is simply too much weight here. I recommend that we either sum it up with less text giving the main ideas sofar in research and also work towards adding more on positive and neutral sources (which are about 50% and should thus cover about that much of the text). V.☢.B 10:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be more productive to balance the article by adding information instead of taking it away. IMO, the only parts of it that might be better removed are the "Teicher et al. (1993) used the "Limbic System Checklist-33 ..." paragraph (already summarized in the opening) and a few of the weird general statements in the last paragraph ("that traumatic stress, including stress from sexual abuse, is associated with notable changes in brain functioning and development," "children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development") -Jillium 18:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, the effect area lack overall structure and balande, not to mention focus. BUT I will leave it, I came here for damage control and I will stick to that. Thanks for the comments. V.☢.B 19:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Undue weight issues

message: Content in question:
:Offenders are more likely to be relatives or acquaintances of their victim than strangers.Fergusson, D. M., Lynskey, M. T., and Horwood L. J. (1996). "Childhood sexual abuse and psychiatric disorder in young adulthood: I. Prevalence of sexual abuse and factors associated with sexual abuse." In the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 35(10), 1355-64. 
:Historically, most researchers have claimed that men have a virtual monolopy on child sexual abuse (Finkelhor 1986).  The percentage of incidents of sexual abuse by female perpetrators is usually reported to be between 1% and 4% (Denov, (2003).  However, in a study of sexual misconduct in US schools female sex offenders have been reported at rates as high as 43% by several credible researchers in what is a direct contrast to the earlier studies data (Shakeshaft 2004).  In studies where students are asked about sex offenses, they report higher levels of female sex offenders than found in adult reports (Educator Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature, p22). 
:For female perpetrated sex offenses, there is the myth of innocence: sexual scripts and the recognition of child sexual abuse by female perpetrators. The Journal of Sex Research, Vol, 40, No, 3, 2003: pp. 303-314.</ref>, though this low figure may be distorted by under-reporting of sexual contact between women and minors.Knopf, M. (1993): Sexuelle Kontakte zwischen Frauen und Kindern - Überlegungen zu einem nicht zustandegekommenen Forschungsprojekt ("Sexual contacts between women and children: Thoughts on a research study that failed"), in: Zeitschrift für Sexualforschung ("Journal of Sexuology"), no. 6, 23-35. This under-reporting has been attributed to cultural denial of female-perpetrated child sex abuse.Denov, Myriam S.  (2004) "Perspectives on Female Sex Offending: A Culture of Denial".  
I tried to add and clean up content as shown above in the Offenders section but was unable to edit this article.  I used Charol Shakeshafts authoritative (2004) USDE report entitled Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature here.  Could someone explain why I am unable to edit this section?  The content I added is hidden beneath the original content in a very strange way.  Please try editing this talk page section to see what I mean and to see the changes I made to the content. 128.111.95.12 01:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You left a ref tag open after 1 and 4%. -Jillium 01:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Please follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Footnotes to cite sources instead of using Harvard references. -Jillium 02:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your help.  I intend to use the correct citations as soon as I better understand how to.  (Miller, E: "The Sun.", page 23. Academic Press, 2005.)  Please be patient as I clean this up.128.111.95.12 03:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Offender section edit problems, please assist me

message: I added content from a USDE report entitled "Educator Sexual Misconduct" (online) which shows student sex abuse by educators...a new scandal that seems to rival the Roman Catholic sex abuse cases in terms of prevalence rates.  Charol Shakeshaft made number of good points here that could be helpful to us as we develop this section.  I for one would like to see data on incidence for the whole population that mirrors what Shakeshaft did on the school population...eg occupation, sex, age and same-sex offender statistics.  Does anyone have sources for this.128.111.95.12 03:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Prevalence rates can vary alot depending on how the research is conducted. I suggest we use literature reviews rather than single studies because there is too much room for political bias otherwise. V.☢.B 09:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Offender section

message: I suggest we break out the legal section and dedicate a new article to the laws on CSA. With time, almost all nations will add their laws to the article and the situation will become unmanagable, we should act proactively and make new article already so we can focus better on all issues involved. Another benefit is that other articles who wanto referens to the law only then can do so much more easily. V.☢.B 15:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Strong oppose. Get some consensus before doing this. The article is not too long and by removing this section we make the article more pro paedophile POV, SqueakBox 17:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop acting like a child please, you didn't complain before and now you got one edit voted down and want to get back. Seriously, whats going on here? V.☢.B 17:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please remain civil and cease the personal attacks. Child indeed! Another one for the Rfc, SqueakBox 17:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On a more serious note, I gave several reasons for why it should be split, any problems with them? And how on earth is separating two different issues into their real articles making the article more pro pedophile POV? It makes no sense at all. V.☢.B 17:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do take civility and NPA seriously. I can see no reason to split this article as it is short. If we were to greatly expand the legal section it might be arguable but not currently,so yes, when it becomes unmanageable we shoul;d split but not before. If readers have difficulty reading finding stuff in articles thwey should use the search button on their web browsers, SqueakBox 18:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is not short by any standard. Let laws be in articles about laws, its pure logic. V.☢.B 18:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly oppose breaking out this section.  Information and a chart about laws does belong here...see, for example, the article Adoption, which does this quite well. DPetersontalk 18:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a main issue since it doesn't concern damage control but rather a sense of aestethics. Can someone please spend some time on the section if it is to remain, it is in awful shape at this point. btw, I Strongly agree to breaking outV.☢.B 18:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The adoption article points to other main articles in their sub section, and I think this is wise. We should apply the same approach here. Feel free to write about the legal status in a summary and then point to the main article. This is a compromise which should make all partys happy. V.☢.B 18:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Breaking out Legal sections

message: User:SqueakBox. Your behavior is getting more and more strange and it seems that you are holding some deep beleif that other editors have an agenda, could you please speak it out clearly and let us know exactly what you are thinking. It seems pointless to keep up these petty "wars" and I would you to let your heart out so we can clear any missunderstanding. V.☢.B 17:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please direct personal comments to my talk page. I bet you cant find one concrete example of my behaviour being strange. All I want is NPOV articles on this subject and as we arent close to getting that I feel impelled to keep editing a subject I find distatsteful to say the least of it. After 2 and a half years plus on wikipedia I have learnt to edit what is important rather than just what I like, SqueakBox 18:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an issue for the whole article so I think it should be here. I gave you a concrete example earlier on the breaking out part. Can you tell what is NPOV here, can you for example tell us the rates of positive/neutral and negative cases in the literature? If not, then how can you judge the balance of the article? V.☢.B 18:12, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not an issue for the whole article. Please focus on the issues not the editors. IMO paedophilia articles which activelty promote a pro paedophilia viewpoint or fail to reflect how society currently views these issues (ie common usage) is POV, SqueakBox 18:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "activelty promote a pro paedophilia viewpoint" Where does the article do this??? V.☢.B 18:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the positive and consensual cases section, that is why I tagged it. Here is another being removed by DPetersen ,  SqueakBox 18:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any specific examples? You haven't shown anything of the kind sofar. V.☢.B 18:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Huh? I just gave 2 specific examples. Nuff said, SqueakBox 18:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You only claimed it was POV, but provided no proof of any kind to prove your point. V.☢.B 18:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have completely lost me now. What do you mean proof? SqueakBox 18:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, the stuff you use to back up your claims. Its quite popular these days. V.☢.B 18:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please avoid Personal Attacks and do Assume good faith and avoid making arguments about editors.  The discussion should remain focused on content and material.  The comments directd toward SqueakBox are not called for or relevant to a content dispute.  DPetersontalk 18:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Likewise. V.☢.B 18:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? DPetersen is doing nothing of the sort and certainly has not created a section intended to discuss any of the editors here, SqueakBox 18:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: IMO the whole section should be removed as an extreme minority viewpoint failing notability, and if not then follow Will's idea of merging it, SqueakBox 18:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You fail to understand that the section is not a 'viewpoint'. The section refers to what Rind and others have established to be a large proportion of the incidents being described by the title of our article. That some shriek, disagree and attack the researchers is irrelevant, as their conclusions have been reached via the use of non clinical, non legal samples, and backed up by peer review. As long as some once 'abused' adults who celebrate or show indifference to their experiences exist, so should this section. βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 19:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm more interested with talk page formatting than this discussion, but while I'm here I'm going to point out that it is isn't very good to proclaim someone else's "failure" to understand something, nor is it good to characterize their mute text as "shrieking".  Please everyone keep your eye on the dove at the top of the page (and help me with the archive box at the top if you know how to fix the formatting.)  Peace... Joie de Vivre 19:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why shouldn't I point out where someone fails to understand what I see as a fundamental ethic in editing an article without subjective bias? The term is in wide use, as a pointer to misconceptions. And no, I did not characterise anyone's opinions as 'shrieking'. My point relates to the unpopularity that SqueakBox was claiming to merit consideration. βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 19:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oooook then.  It's not that you shouldn't point it out, it's that you shouldn't attack people and be rude.  You did certainly use the word "shriek", saying "that some (people) shriek... is irrelevant", it's not hard to figure out what you meant.  Good luck and please calm down.  Joie de Vivre 19:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon our frustration, having to deal with this stuff on a daily basis consumes alot of energy which had been better spent on the article instead. I just wish people would stick to the areas where they have knowledge so we could avoid the endless disputes which are based on ones sides unfounded beleifs vs another sides facts. V.☢.B 19:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lets just make this clear - at no point did I accuse SqueakBox of 'shrieking'. Pointing out nonexistent infractions and telling others to calm down when all they did is use one misunderstood term of common usage and one reference to social hysteria, is far more likely to lead to conflict. βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 20:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:CIVIL  20:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: V?B, I can understand that editing can be frustrating if the same issues come up again and again.  However, WP:NPA does not say "Comment on content, not the contributor... except if you are sick of discussing the same thing over over and over again."  If you find yourself annoyed from repetitious discussion, it's still every editor's responsibility to remain civil.  If a given editor cannot do that for whatever reason, it is their responsibility to step back.  Joie de Vivre 20:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Joie de Vivre here.  Please keep comments on content not editors.  The conduct of VoB and V?B is not conducive or helpful here and does not adhere to Assume good faith or Avoiding Personal attacks.  Let's stay focued on content. DPetersontalk 21:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quality of editing

message: It's getting clogged. 
You what? I have no issues in the theory of evolution but I am certain you cannot source that pedophilia anywhere in the world has the mainstream acceptance of creationism in America. Your comment is a bit off to be honest. Can you source that pro pedophilia is in any way mainstream? as your claim re Rind bering mainstream is not proven. If you can please do, if not please can we begin to create an NPOV article re this subject, SqueakBox 23:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its about fact vs opinion. The opinion part gets less than 1/7th in that article, so we should have the same ratio here for consistency. Psychological Bulletin is mainstream, google it if you must... V.☢.B 00:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The source is from Psychological Bulletin, by American Psychological Association. It's as good as it gets since that's the #1 journal in the field. Try find a better source :) V.☢.B 00:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The opinion is utterly fringe and so should have no part in an NPOV article here. Please stop trying to use this article to promotr your fringe pro pedophile views, SqueakBox 00:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Based in Washington, DC, the American Psychological Association (APA) is a scientific and professional organization that represents psychology in the United States. With 148,000 members, APA is the largest association of psychologists worldwide. Seriously, this is getting silly, can't you just admit you where wrong? V.☢.B 00:12, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You just claimed that APA was not mainstream, this is like saying the earth is being flat. This is no longer about POV but about you having no knowledge in this area but still have very strong opinions. I don't really see how you can make any judgement at all in this area if you don't even know about Americal Psychological Association. V.☢.B 00:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. I am claiming your pro pedophilia views are not mainstreeam which is something different altogether. I am not American so if I show an ignorance about that country, well that's me, SqueakBox 00:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just showed that the source used was published by the journal from the largest organisation for psychologists worldwide. This source also completely proved you wrong. This also means that you consider APA to publish pro pedophilia views which is highly remarkable and very dubious opinion. Now tell us, what source do you cite that beats Psychological Bulletin? V.☢.B 00:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The article states no opinion about pro pedophilia or changing any laws. What the **** are you raving about? V.☢.B 01:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have to agree with Jmh123 on this one.  I won't repeat those cogent statements.  DPetersontalk 01:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Me too, SqueakBox 01:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Its the worst strawman argument I have ever seen, he sets up over 3 positions which I do not support and which does not exist in the article and then attacks them as if they did. By far the most blatant rhetoric attack I have witnessed on wikipedia sofar. Why can you guys get away with accusation of pro pedophilia activism? Seems like a very serious offence to me, please explain. V.☢.B 01:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i can imagine these guys actually doing a cursory review of the literature (as opposed to fox news) and then launching a schlesinger-esque attack on the "pro-pedophile conspiracy" which the majority of sexual abuse researchers must belong to. even dallam would be attacked for conceding that child sexual abuse is not always harmful in his critique of rind et al. perhaps they should begin their libel there, at the source --science-- instead of sjooting the messenger here. blah.Kinda0 01:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You sound sane, please stick around. V.☢.B 01:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Its not a threat since I clearly states that its apparently completely acceptable behavior here so stop trying to claim it is. It is very disturbing that you  all the time accuse your fellow editors of being pro-pedophile, this is  very wrong and an attack of very low form. Do you wanto win at all costs despite being wrong factually? Do you wanto chase away opoents so you can remove facts as you please? I can't spend all days here just fighting with you, I can't spend all days with people who are ignorant about the most basic facts in this area. Is this how you want it to end? You alone, with a bad and biased article? V.☢.B 01:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not interested in winning, merely in NPOVing this set of articles. I absolutely am not ignorant about this area neither are the great majority of people on this planet, especially the majority of parents. I do know about life and am just applying common sense. If you want to claim you know more about life than me I would suggest you are blowing against the wind. Given your failure to clarify what kind of an offence I am talking about I need to contemplate on where we are going with your rfc, SqueakBox 01:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So now you are making threats yourself, how appropriate. You claimed one i 10000 had positive experience, this is showing complete ignorance of the subject you are discussing and editing. Common sense simply means common beleif, and this has included the world being flat and other less than brilliant ideas. Create a section of popular opinon and stick to it, you can roam free there, just keep out of the science parts cause you obviously have no clue at all in that area. V.☢.B 01:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Huh? I aint making no threat. That is ridiculous and shows you dont understandd the power of judiciary (or perhaps you do) let alone of the arbcom. How you can compare your possible legal threats with wikipedia stuff is beyond me (all the arbcom can do at worse is ban someone, hardly disruptive to a life path). Please let me know whether you are making a legal threat or not? We overcame the world is flat theory when Columbus discovered where I am living right now, and while it took us a bit longer to figure out paedophilia I think we have mastered the subject as a human race in 2007. I'll ignore your advice about how to edit the article for what I hope are obvious reasons. You were asked a while back about your alleged expertise in this area and we still await your answer, ~~ SqueakBox 02:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You've lost it. I will work under the assumption that you are ******* ******* ****** V.☢.B 02:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: What have I lost (he says grabbing his wallet and keys). Please work under the assumption I want an answer to what exxactly you meant when saying "Seems like a very serious offence to me", SqueakBox 02:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Positive cases part 2

message: Elsewhere on this talk page several editors are debating the weight that should be given the pro-pedophilia point of view.  That's all fine.  Undue weight should not be given to a small-minority point of view.  However, we have a major problem:  We cannot measure how small that point of view is due to the realpolitik surrounding pedophilia.  If you read the literature over the last 20 years since the Day care sexual abuse hysteria and particularly since the Roman Catholic sex abuse cases of a few years ago, it will appear that the pro-pedophile minority is very small indeed.  However, the political consequences of taking any position other than the orthodox one of "sex with children is always bad, 100% of the time, and anyone who says otherwise is promoting evil" has had a chilling effect on research and publications that might suggest otherwise.  Authors and publishers of publications such as the Rind Report (1998), Harmful to Minors, and others have suffered harm to their professional reputation and threats of funding cuts for daring to speak anything other than the party line.  In the case of the University of Minnesota Press and the American Psychological Association, lawmakers got involved and threatened sanctions.  With this kind of chilling effect, what may appear to be a very very small minority opinion may actually be a very small minority opinion or even a small minority opinion.  The fact that it is a small minority opinion is not in dispute, the dispute is over how small and what defines WP:UNDUE. Of course, we could throw up our hands and declare that Wikipedia's sense of UNDUE is a reflection of the larger community, and if the scientific community is chilled then Wikipedia should reflect that.  Dfpc 01:10, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument is not over positive cases really but about causality. At any rate, this is getting  out of hand, some serious sect feelings here. If science isn't good enough, then we are all doomed. V.☢.B 01:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The political poison of non-orthodox positions on sensitive subjects and its impact on [[WP:UNDUE]] 

message: The removal of the entire positive section is nothing but censorship. If there is any sane voices left, speak up now. V.☢.B 02:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Censorship

message: The edit war between SqueakBox, DPeterson, Herostratus, and others(?) on one side and Voice of Britain and others(?) on the other is getting out of hand.  Before anyone reverts it let's hash it out here and get outside input if necessary.  For those of us who aren't following the debate above closely:  If you have an opinion on why this section should stay, be deleted, or stay with changes, please concisely state your position here.  Thank you.  Dfpc 02:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: rind et al.'s 1998/1997 studies are cited in a fair amount of child sexual abuse literature actually, though sometimes with caveats. (for example Angelini 1998, Padayachi 2000,  Oellerich 2001, Carballo-Dieguez 2002, DeLamater 2005) paolucci et al.'s meta-analysis even oddly cites the ideas of pro-pedophile activists brongersma, chiswick, and sandfort before most other opinions. i do not support excluding certain studies or opinions which have been included in much of the other literature, and the editors for doing so have not provided a satisfactory argument to support their position.Kinda0 02:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It has become blatantly obvious that some people here have no interest whatsoever in creating a NPOV article, and censoring facts seem to not be beyond them. Anyone with a sane mind should take this fight here and now, we are facing ignorance of the worst kind and as our ancestors we should fight for the freedom of information. V.☢.B 02:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I have protected the page for an hour. It will give you all time to discuss the issues here. From your friendly neighborhood uninterested in the topic 3rd party.--Kungfu Adam (talk) 02:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing to discuss, we either follow facts or we don't. It comes down to that, how do we speed things along? V.☢.B 02:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No sociology Wikipedia article includes all available research.  It's simply an impossible task.  Even when there is a good faith effort to have NPOV, minority opinions and obscure papers are rarely included in any encyclopedic sociology article.  Despite appearances, Wikipedia is not unabridged.  The question is not "should we include all the facts," the question is, how significant does a fact have to be before it is worthy of inclusion.  This is a matter for legitimate debate.  So, let's debate. Dfpc 02:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Its impossible to debate factual issues with people who ignore facts. That is why this is pointless and should be speeded up to whatever instance needed to get it resolved. Is 20-50% of all children relevant or not? To me its obvious but I'm only following facts and logic, so what do I know? V.☢.B 02:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Kungfuadam, if the edit war continues, I'd be OK with re-protecting the page until the dispute is resolved or several days pass and it becomes obvious it never will be without outside help.  If that happens, it'll be time for outside experts, mediation, arbitration, or other intervention.  Dfpc 02:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the high emotion of some people here in the last hour, I think Wikipedia would benefit if we all slept on it.  A 12 or 24 hour lock won't kill anyone and we will all be cooler-headed tomorrow.  I hope.  Dfpc 03:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you took my 24 and raised me 48 more.  They say Jesus rose from the dead in less than 3 days, so that should be enough time to at least agree on how to solve the problem.  Dfpc 03:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Dont think it;ll do much good but it certainly wont do any harm. The resolution of this one is likely to take more than just a break, SqueakBox 03:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Positive and consensual cases edit war getting out of hand 

message: Come on people, come to some consensus, and stop edit warring... (i.e., the edit war that is going on 20 May)--Kungfu Adam (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They ignore and delete fact. What we do? Please tell me. V.☢.B 02:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: READ THE BLOODY RESEARCH! We have provided a shitload of sources, take some time off and actually read them. Jesus... V.☢.B 02:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: give me a break. is accusing your opponent of having a 'pro pedophile agenda' your only mode of debate? this article should be a complete mosaic of the fruits of science, and although this has not yet been accomplished, your obsession with deleting facts well-known to child sexual abuse researchers isn't helping us get there. oh, and nice accusation of criminal activity there, hypocrite. Kinda0 02:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, everyone read Wikipedia's policy on revert wars- WP:3RR. Even if a position is blatantly wrong, the answer is not a revert war. The proper way to handle disputes is on the talk page.--Kungfu Adam (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Please stop the Personal attacks and watch your language...I can appreciate your frustation being a minority view that is not fully accepted, but please, let's focus on the issus, not personalities.  DPetersontalk 02:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: funny that you directed that to me and not squeakbox, who just freaking implied anyone who disagrees or with him (anyone mildly familiar with the literature) is a child sexual abuser. hmm. definitely not an attack there. Kinda0 02:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is that you deleted facts. Go figure. V.☢.B 02:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: me?Kinda0 02:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, DPeterson, you have acted as a hero sofar. V.☢.B 02:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: KindaO.  I am sorry, my comments got put in place in the wrong seqeucne and were directed to Voice of Britain's use of "shitload" etc...not to your comments or thoughts.  I appologize if I was unclear and offended you.  DPetersontalk 02:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit warring 

message: Unless someone gives me a darn good reason not to, I'm going to add  sometime Sunday or Monday.  Maybe if we get some more real sex experts in here we can make a better article.  It might not be a bad idea to have Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality or a similar group oversee this article.  Dfpc 02:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead, whatever happens I want to get a result. It is pointless to waste my time arguing with ignorant people, I'd rather win or lose everything fast so I can get something useful done instead of this madness. V.☢.B 02:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is about the sexual abuse of children.  Relevant experts would be in Psychology, Child Welfare, and Social Work.  DPetersontalk 02:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Psychotherapy helps too. Exoperts arent lacking here, SqueakBox 02:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And witchcraft aswell, that surely will be the icing of the cake. On a serious note, a real researcher with a strong sense of justice and beleif in fact over fiction is all that needs. His area is not important. V.☢.B 02:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text:  DPeterson, I found Wikipedia:WikiProject Psychology but didn't find anything on Child Welfare or Social Work.  If you could find something related it would help.  The expert-subject tag works best if there is an active WikiProject to put after the {{expert-subject| Dfpc 03:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Find someone who is not recomended by one side of the argument... That much should be obvious? V.☢.B 03:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd be more comfortable with an expert or better yet experts that aren't already invested in this article.  I'd prefer at least 3 "fresh blood" experts, with at least 1 each with "pro" and "anti" personal opinions but excluding anyone who is incapable of setting aside their personal opinion when editing articles. Dfpc 03:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah but trying to find a pro expert is like the proverbial needle in the haystack. We absolutely do not lack expertise here, the only problem is pro child child abuser activists destroying this article by any means with their pro pedophile POV. As they have promised us they would do on their boy and girl chat sites, something the wikipedia foundation is aware of, SqueakBox 03:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: who here is a "pro child abuser activist?" Kinda0 03:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At least one "Pro-child-abuser activist" I mean self-admitted pedophile got banned from Wikipedia, in part or possibly in full because he dared to say he was a pedophile on his user page.  As a consequence, any other pedophile will be gun-shy about admitting it.  In effect, there's a "don't ask don't tell" policy on pedophiles editing Wikipedia right now.  I know some pedophiles who happen to be experts on this subject matter.  I have faith that they can edit with NPOV.  However, I doubt they will be willing to mediate or arbitrate what will look to them like a pissing match.  Personally, I hope we can all get some sleep and come back tomorrow and sit down and have a nice cup of tea.  Dfpc 03:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: i would appreciate if we could do that, yes. but you seem to reply to any argument with personal accusations against the author. please stop doing this. Kinda0 03:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I am not sure that is the case. I have endlessly explained arguments here. Child sexual abuse is illeagal and most human being s really hate child sexual abuse which is why we punish perpetatrors harshly. This needs to be reflected in this set of articles but instead we find endless POV pushing that gloriofies, glamifies etc pedophilia and abusing children. Wikipedia is more or less now claiming that actually pedofilia is fine and most children benefit from being abused in spite of this not being a mainstream belief but that of a tiny minority, mostly of convicted criminals so hated they have to be protected from other prisoners. Our job is to interpret life in an encyclopedic way, it is not to promote an extreme minority belief that most users wont touch with a barge pole (as many have made clear to me) because of the shame that pedophiles have to endure (and rightly to my POV), SqueakBox 03:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: as many of the researchers (berlin, finkelhorn, rind, etc.) who acknowledge the full spectrum of consequences of child sexual abuse have articulated, lack of harmfulness does not imply lack of wronfulness. reflecting the current state of scientific research is hardly equal to claiming that child sexual abuse is ethically ok, and neither our article nor any of the research supporting it glorifies child abuse. if you want to add the media's opinion that being molested slays one's soul or whatever nbc is saying today, go ahead. Kinda0 03:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "but instead we find endless POV pushing that gloriofies, glamifies etc pedophilia and abusing children." You couldn't even refrain in one of your posts? Impressive. V.☢.B 03:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Squeakbox said Child sexual abuse is illeagal and most human being s really hate child sexual abuse which is why we punish perpetatrors harshly.  This needs to be reflected in this set of articles....  In many parts of the West up until the 1970s, the same thing was said of homosexuals.  It still is in some countries.  My point is that illegality and social unacceptance do not necessarily match what they should in a perfect world.  Now, should Wikipedia try to match the world as it is, or should it try to match the world as the editors of this article think the world should be?  If it is the latter, how do we handle differences of opinion?  To put it another way, if this were 1950, and this was an article about homosexuality, should we strive for an article that accurately reflected the 1950 opinion of homosexuality, or should we give "undue weight" to minority-opinion valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence, evidence that is widely accepted 57 years later?  This is not an easy question and has no right answer.  Perhaps other controversial topics have dealt with this very issue and we can follow Wiki-precedent.  Dfpc 03:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Black/white mariages like mine were illegal in South Africa till recently (in my lifetime) and in America until not so long ago so please assume myu awareness of this fact. But murder is as hated as ever. Why? Because one person victimises another. Same with child abuse because there is nop consenting. And uterly different from mixed race marriages or homosexualityn where consenting adults are involved, SqueakBox 03:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We should follow the facts, the majority of the population in the world do not beleive in evolution, should we follow their opinion or facts? V.☢.B 03:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolute rubbish though wikipedia does give ample space to creationism which is far more mainstream than either pedophilia or wanting to kill people (whioch some people glorify, eg Mara Salvatrucha. So we should indeed follow consensus and not glorify murder, child abuse or other horrific crimes, SqueakBox 03:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a difference between glorifying something and not vilifying it.  VoB wants scientific evidence to be presented.  Assuming the evidence is valid, it should be presented unless there are WP:UNDUE considerations.  Whether WP:UNDUE is triggered is the very question we are debating today.  Dfpc 04:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: VoB, I think you hit the nail on the head.  However, with Wikipedia, the answer may very well be that we follow popular opinion.  A few minutes ago I asked what the Wiki-precedent is. Dfpc 04:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Of course I believe in facts. The fact is our socities put child abusers away for along time and are repulsed by them, SqueakBox 03:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard not to insult you when you act this stupid, but I will refrain from it this time. V.☢.B 03:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: then add that! it is not contradictory to the facts already included in the article. maybe we need a section about perception of child sexual abuse.Kinda0 03:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Good idea, SqueakBox 04:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calling for an expert 

message: I suggest mediation and if it doesnt work we probably need an arbitration case because this one isnt going to get sorted tonight, SqueakBox 03:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Arbitration right away, mediation is pointless. Its not like people like you are going to stop unless you get banned or forbidden to edit anymore, or you manage to ban oponents... V.☢.B 03:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Self-fullfilling prophecy?  If a key party such as yourself won't participate in mediation, then 1 of 3 things will happen:  Everyone will "see the light" and join you, everyone will ignore you for refusing to participate in mediation, or mediation will fail and it will go to arbitration.  I can all but guarantee that the first won't happen for you or your opponents.  If we can't get this thing sorted on our own, please give mediation a chance.  Dfpc 03:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mediation can only work if SqueakBox starts to absorb the facts that exists on this subject, and this will never happen. I will never back down from facts or logic, so the situation is impossible. No point in wasting any time. If you convince SquakBox to remove himself from here then I will gladly mediate with the others. V.☢.B 03:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mediation is very unlikely to work if any editor is inflexible.  This means you too Voice of Britain.  Dfpc 03:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very flexible, but there is no point in mediation if SqueakBox is included. V.☢.B 03:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: VoB, you said I will never back down from facts or logic, so the situation is impossible. If the consensus is that small-minority scientific evidence should be ignored based on WP:UNDUE provided that the vast majority of scientific evidence contradicts the small-minority evidence, would you go along with deleting the small-minority evidence?  Let me give an example:  There are several scientific theories on the best way to treat a child with attachment disorder.  Some of these theories are very fringe.  However, that doesn't mean the science behind them is invalid.  It may mean that the results are a statistical fluke that won't hold up under repeated experiments.  Or it may be that their experiment hasn't been repeated enough to convince the rest of the scientific community.  In an article on the subject, should Wikipedia give any space to these fringe scientific studies, and if so, how much?  Remember WP:UNDUE.  As it happens, there is an article dedicated to one of those fringe treatments and it is locked due to a content dispute.  Dfpc 04:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Its obvious that you are a lost cause. As long as you are here there is no point in mediation. If you dissapear then perhaps there is some possibilites to mediate with the others. If you remain, no hope at all. V.☢.B 03:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Check my contribs and go figure. But please reconsider, SqueakBox 03:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mediation usually (always?) must be attempted before arbitration.  I'd suggest just moving to filing a Mediation request and giving it a try.  Either all involved will agree, and that can move forward, or there will be some who will refuse, and then the next step in dispute resolution will occur.  If all agree to Mediation and it produces an agreeable result, 'great.'  If it fails, then the next step in the dispute resolution process can be taken.  In any event, moving to filing a request for Mediation may be the best next step to take. DPetersontalk 14:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: We need to wait till VoB is unbanned and I will make the request next Saturday, SqueakBox 16:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, we must wait. It's the fair thing to do. Dfpc 18:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation

message: Voice of Britain is blocked for a week, see User talk:Voice of Britain and User talk:H.
With that in mind, I think we should semi-protect the article, re-protect it shortly before VoB's block expires, then resume the debate we started a few hours ago.  If VoB promises not to edit-war then re-protecting or semi-protecting may not be necessary.  Dfpc 04:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Semi-protection is only used in instances of heavy vandalism, which I haven't seen recently on this article. Wikipedia:Protection policy#Semi-protection. If everyone agrees to stop reverting the admin who protected the article might agree to lift it.  ·:·Will Beback  ·:· 07:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have unprotected the page. Let me stress again, since I was accused on my talk page. I have no opinion or care what revision is on the page. I took action only to stop the edit warring. The version that I protected by no means stated my opinion, I am not supporting either position. I am still your friendly neighborhood uninterested third party.--Kungfu Adam (talk) 12:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Admins always lock to the wrong version, SqueakBox 16:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voice of Britain blocked for 1 week 

message: "However, other more recent studies do find an increase in cortosol levels among victims of child sexual abuse and trauma and damage to various parts of the brain"
please cite the studies that found this. also one of the books you cite is from 1999, four years before mcnally's book. Kinda0 16:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The second text is 2007. DPetersontalk 16:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: studies please? Kinda0 16:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The text by Dr. Bruce Perry was published in 2007 and includes a variety of verifiable material...I'm not sure what you are asking for? DPetersontalk 16:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the studies he references to evidence the claim that that sexually abused children tend towards increased cortisol. i would like to include these in the article, preferably with a little information about the subjects/methods as i did with king et al... kinda 16:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The text presents a lot of studies; some Dr. Perry's work, some that of others.  I just thought the basic reference for the one line would suffice here.  DPetersontalk 17:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: at least one study published in a peer-reviewed journal would be nice. is perry's book a primary source? kinda 17:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr. Perry's book includes his original work, cites his published studies, and studies of others.  I just don't have the time to research a journal article...the book lists a number though. DPetersontalk 19:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: can you give me one of the citations? kinda 20:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't have the time to do that...The book is readily available though. DPetersontalk 20:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: cortisol

message: The Rind study does a lot of heavy lifting in this entry, and I wondered if it was at all controversial.  There is a Wikipedia article specifically on the Rind study, but it also is tagged for NPOV issues.  A search of the American Psychologist and the Psychological Bulletin databases indicates that there have been a number of articles, statements, debates and so forth within those pages regarding this study.  (I'm not talking about outside controversies--there are those too--but controversies with the professional scientific community.)  I wonder why this entry, which relies so heavily on Rind, does not mention that the study is controversial, or present arguments specifically opposing that study. I'm confused by those here who have debated on the basis that the study is science and therefore incontrovertible.  The suggestion of such statements is that the science is unopposed.  It appears, as is often the case, in science as in other fields, that there is not a single, indisputable point of view on this matter.  Unfortunately I don't have access to the full text articles.  Here's a link to some of the abstracts that came up in my search:  abstracts concerning Rind research.  Obviously if psychologists are debating these issues amongst themselves, we will not be able to resolve that debate here.  The Rind study was published.  It is controversial.  It says + Opponents say = NPOV.  No?  -Jmh123 18:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good information.  I'd not realized how controversial the Rind material was.  I agree that stating it is controversial and then stating what each side says is NPOV and would be consistent with Wikipedia policies and practices regarding controversial subjects. DPetersontalk 19:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rind?

message: where? ~kinda 00:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a whole section devoted tot his. In this context positive is a weasel word and is huighly disputed, as you klnow, SqueakBox 01:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the relationships are positive by evaluation of the victims. is this not clear? ~kinda 01:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Allegedly. But that's not the issue. Far more children suffer than dont and yet we are claiming in a weasel way that its all just great. Thus positive is hugely weasel in this case, and indeed the section should be removed, SqueakBox 01:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: please point out where we make such an absurd claim. as far as i can see, we just state that a minority of abused children reflect on their abuse positively. this fact is hardly disputable. ~kinda 01:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In an utterly POV way by giving it far too much prominence when it is so obscure it shouldnt be here at all as unnotable. When the weasel word title is removed it is quickl;y reverted and until this gets sorted the weasel tagg is required. We are trying to build an encyclopedia and this means neutrality,. These tags are for disputes where neutrality is disputed and this giving fake prominence to the alleged positive impacts of serious criminal offences is weasel. Its the kind of input we would expect from pedophiles and convicted sex offenders not neutral encyclopedia writers, SqueakBox 01:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yet again with your idiotic implications. is david finkelhorn a pedophile and convicted sex offender, hmm? i guess every author of the dozens upon dozens of studies that have found a portion of children loook upon their abuse positively is part of some VAST PEDOPHILE CONSPIRACY that wabts to legalize child sexual abuse. as for weasel words, you still haven't explained how anything on this page violates the guidlines at Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. if anything, undue weight is the only issue, but i don't think that's the case because i personally feel 10-20% of child sexual abuse victims make up a notable percent. they shouldn't be made 'unpersons' just because they don't comply with your prejudices. ~kinda 02:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Please read the Wikipedia article on weasel words.  In this article and context, positive is a weasel word, as I read the Wiki description of the term weasel.  The tag belongs and should stay.  User:kinda0 disputes this, and so the tag belongs because there is a dispute regarding the neutrality of the article.  Once consensus is reached the tag can be removed.  On this I have to say that to try to build a case that illegal activity is postive is a real problem.  I suppose I could argue that bank robbery has some very positive effects for the robber, if the robber is not caught, but I think we'd all agree that is a weasel-type statment per the wiki article and general consensus and just plain common sense.  DPetersontalk 02:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i did, but the positive claims are properly attributed so there should be no conflict. also, i'm not trying to argue anything. i believe 10 to 20% of molestation victims make up a minority significant enough to be included. ~kinda 02:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: weasel words?