Talk:Man in the Iron Mask

message: According to the French Wikipédia article, the identification with Vivien de Bulonde is just one hypothesis among others and lacks consistency in several respects. (I know nothing about the matter and have no opinion one way or the other. But perhaps the view that is upheld here should be sourced.) - Mu 21:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vivien de Bulonde

message: What are the sources for this article? - Kevingarcia 03:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources? 

message: IP address 199.224.119.180 had did some minor vandalism to this article. I don't know where/how to report, but if anybody cares to, go ahead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.14.205.2 (talk) 01:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: This is definitely an interesting item of history because of what is implied by the elaborate precautions. The prisoner must have been someone easily recognizable by a large number of people for the mask to be necessary at all. A valet, or even the envoy of a foreign power, would be known by so few people, especially in pre-photographic days, that the odds of his ever being recognized would be close to nothing -- and that recognition itself would be meaningless. The sight of someone's valet being hustled along by gendarmes from one prison to another would not cause major political repercussions.
On the other hand, whoever the prisoner was, he would have to be someone whose life Louis XIV valued, since if he was dangerous enough to Louis' interests to merit such enormous precautions, then his quiet liquidation would be the safest bet. Ruthless, yes, but few rulers have ever been squeamish about such matters. A nobody who knew too much would have been buried in the fortress ditch before nightfall.
This suggests to my mind at least that he was either a very close relative of the King's, whose claim would be superior to Louis' own (Louis' older brother) or who would make Louis' claim to the throne suspect (Louis' father).  This is, of course, assuming that the precautions were ordered by Louis. The theory that the prison governor created this charade to make himself seem more important seems very plausible, as well, and is probably more likely. Monomakh 04:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, he can't have been a well known person, because there's nobody unaccounted for! Therefore, he must have *looked like* a well known person, which makes the "close relative of Louis" theory stronger.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.151.84 (talk) 14:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The identity of the Man in the Iron Mask 

message: There are too many "some say..." stories without any specifics for who said them, or if there is any attribution, it's unclear where this can be verified.  I hope this spurs some research on obtaining citations and not some deletionist to remove the ones I have labeled . patsw 15:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cited and uncited. 

message: * This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence. 
I have modified the offending sentence to one with a coherent meaning. patsw 15:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  rm Wiki-nonsense, but it had a point

message: This article says that the prisoner was held at the Chateau d'If, but the article on the Chateau d'If says he wasn't.  Someone is mistaken - anyone know who it is? --Andersonblog (talk) 03:47, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Chateau d'If?

message: So what is the history of how the detail of the iron mask came to associated with this personage? This article is heavily revisionist, that the reader has no clue about the version it is revising. I don't believe that this fault is intentional -- nor is it unique to this article; there are many articles on Wikipedia that are as heavily revisionist as this one is. -- llywrch (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the Iron Mask? 

message: One source I read pointed out the difference between a mask of velvet - keeping the person unknown - and a mask of iron - a prison within a prison.
How practical would it be in medical terms, to be wearing an iron (or metal) mask for extended periods of time?
People might be recognised beyond their immediate circle - see the story about Louis XVI's capture at Varennes.
Jackiespeel (talk) 18:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  heavy metal poisoning would result. An "Iron Mask" is a metaphor. In reality, the mask would have been cloth if the prisoner was worth keeping. As metaphor, the mask refers to the Inquisition, general repression, and abuse of power by nobles. Europe learned a lot from the Inquisition. Which is the more appealing for a title if you want to sell a book?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.80.189 (talk) 15:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The prisoner never worn an iron mask-that is just a detail invented by Voltaire. The mask was velvet. --A.S. Brown (talk) 02:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Velvet and iron

message: Does the author mean that the entrance to the cell had multiple doors or that the cell had more than one door in different places? For the life of me, I don't see how its having doors in different places would make it harder for people to listen in. Could someone please explain what the author meant by this?
Utipossidetis (talk) 23:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A cell with multiple doors 

message: I have not studied on the man in the iron mask much, but the one book I have read (Le Secret du masque de fer by Marcel Pagnol) did not talk about Chateau d'if. However, it did go through the prisoner's life step by step. Does anyone know more? Or should this be a potential change. --Marcelpagnol (talk) 17:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove chateau d'if or not? 

message: The introduction states that the prisoner was constantly masked.  In the body of the text, it is implied that he may have been masked only on certain occasions -- e.g., when being moved from one prison to another.  The latter is certainly more consistent with the account presented in a recent History Program documentary, but no doubt others will know the sources better than I do. Nandt1 (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Inconsistency in article -- constantly masked or not?

message: My own theory is that Eustache Dauger could have been a spy for Louis XIII; his occupation as a valet would have made him an ideal choice to act as a King's Agent.  I assume that Dauger's true identity was so secret that when the King no longer had any need of him, he was locked up under the identity of a deceased prisoner for his own safety, since the King had powerful enemies who would have tortured a spy to death for what he knew.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glammazon (talk • contribs) 04:52, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could Eustache Dauger have been a spy? 

message: Dumas was not the first. I saw a reference in a Catherine Gore novel from the 1830s, I think it was The Cabinet Minister.  It said the man in the iron mask was a way of disposing of a twin king of France.  I wish I had the page number but the novel is available on archive.org.
4.249.63.229 (talk) 11:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Earlier reference 

message: I found a contradiction in the section on Bulonde; it stated that "The dates of the letters fit the dates of the original records about the man in the mask." There is no citation, and I have removed it, since the dates don't seem to fit. The article states that Dauger was first heard of in July 1669, and the Bulonde's crime occurred in 1691. If those two dates are accurate, than some mention must be made of how Bulonde could possibly be considered identical with Dauger. 97.124.200.49 (talk) 17:22, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulonde 

message: Substituted at 22:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: According to the present text:  "That would have allowed the queen to be left alone with her midwife who would have given birth to the second child."  I know that midwives play an important part in the event, but not that important!  I think the appropriate word is 'delivered'.86.174.78.17 (talk) 19:53, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Midwife 

message: In Viscount Mahon's The Life of Louis, Prince of Condé: Surnamed the Great (or at Archive.org), he asserts that Voltaire tells us he wore a mask of velvet & springs. 
Also here's the required citation from Chamber's Miscellany for the Bastille episode, if helps:
"Thus, the statement of Voltaire, and all those who have followed in his 
wake, about the extraordinary respect paid by the governor of the 
fortress, and even by the Marquis de Louvois, must be considered in 
the light of an unsupported, if not an invented, accessory to the 
romance of the incident A manuscript journal kept by M. Dujonca, 
lieutenant of the Bastile, first quoted by the P^re Griffet, is the only 
authentic document extant upon the subject of the prisoner, apart 
from the official correspondence to be hereafter mentioned, inasmuch 
-as the register of the Bastile copied in the work called La Bastile 
Devotee, or * The Bastile Exposed/ is judged to be merely a com- 
pilation from Dujonca's journal so far as concerns this particular 
case, as all the pnncipal records are known to have been destroyed. 
This journal records that, * at three o'clock on the afternoon of 
Thursday, the i8th September 1698, Saint-Mars arrived from the 
Isle de Sainte-Marguerite, bringing with him, in a litter, an old 
prisoner, whom he had had at Pignerol, whose name was not 
mentioned, and who was always kept masked. This prisoner was 
put into the tower of La Baziniere until night, when I myself 
•conducted him at nine in the evening to the third chamber of the 
tower of La Bertaudiere, which care had been taken to furnish with 
all things necessary. The Sieur Rosarges, who likewise came from 
the Isle de Sainte-Marguerite with Saint-Mars, was directed to 
wait upon and take care of the aforesaid prisoner, who was fed by the :governor.' 
In the same journal, the death of the prisoner is mentioned under 
date of the 19th November 1703, in the following terms: *The 
unknown prisoner, always masked with a black velvet mask, whom M. 
ide Saint-Mars had brought with him, and had long kept under his 
charge, feeling slightly indisposed after attending mass, died to-day 
at ten at night, widiout having experienced any considerable illness : 
he could not have suffered less. M. Giraut, our chaplain, confessed 
him yesterday. Surprised by death, he was unable to receive the 
sacraments, and our chaplain exhorted him for a moment before he 
died. He was interred on Tuesday. 20th November, at four in the 
afternoon, in the cemetery of St rauL His interment cost forty 
livres.* " --Lmstearn (talk) 13:11, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voltaire Misunderstanding? & Citations 

message: At the moment, the "Disgrace" section (which needs supporting citations) begins: "In April 1659, Eustache [Dauger de Cavoye] and Guiche were invited to an Easter weekend party at the castle of Rossy-en-Brie." "Guiche" is not mentioned elsewhere in this article. Is this person (?) somehow relevant? If Guiche's presence contributes something, then some some introduction or explanation is appropriate. If not, can Guiche be dropped? Why not simply "In April 1659, Eustache was invited to an Easter weekend party at the castle of Rossy-en-Brie." --Jdickinson (talk) 06:02, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just about to add this. It either needs expansion or deletion. Spiel (talk) 15:03, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who was "Guiche?" 

message: This is just a theory, but could it be that the Eustache Dauger de Cavoye, was only interned on paper, and not in actuality?
If this asylum was generally recognized as a place to send black sheep or familial outcasts, then couldn't it be possible that a family pretends to intern a relative into this asylum as a way to save face or save the family's honor?
Like, they can talk him to the asylum, bribe the warden to get paperwork saying that he was accepted into the asylum, and then just tell Eustache to leave and not show his face around there. So, they get the benefit of appearing to have dealt with their problem, but without the guilt of knowing they willingly imprisoned their son/brother.
And if they bribed the warden properly, then anyone else inquiring about Eustache will be told that he is indeed staying there, but can't be seen by visitors. It seems plausible to me.
And, it would also explain how a man with the same name would be imprisoned for an unknown reason, and have his identity obscured so as to not reveal that he isn't in the asylum where he's supposed to be.
Although, a notable hole in my theory is that I have no idea why Louis XIV would want to keep this information private. If he discovered that Eustache Dauger de Cavoye was not in asylum as his family claimed he was, then he would probably make an even louder example out of him and his family, not the reverse.
Unless revealing Eustache Dauger and his crimes would somehow negate the coverup he did on behalf of his mistress. If acknowledging Eustache's crimes would also expose his mistress, this this theory might be plausible.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.226.238.106 (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eustache Dauger de Cavoye Theory 

message: This story really reminds me of the story of Uday Hussein's body double.
He was essentially a prisoner was was kept to look exactly identical to Uday, and basically not allowed to go outside or speak to anyone when not performing his duties as a body double.
It could be that Eustache Dauger looked identically to some VIP, and his existence needed to be kept secret, hence the mask and communication rules.
Although it would be awfully hard for him to perform his job without the warden being informed of this in the correspondence. Perhaps he was a body double who had become uncooperative, and was being replaced by someone who would do the job better. Or, perhaps even more likely, he successfully performed his role as a body double and was targeted for assassination, but somehow survived. If the body double was attacked and survived, but disfigured, then he would need to be replaced, but you wouldn't necessarily want to execute him because he did serve you faithfully.
Being a body double means witnessing things which are probably classified, as well as simply knowing way too much about the heads of state (or whoever). So it makes sense that they can't let him return to society at large.
Actually, it's very similar in theory to the "spy" theory posted here, but with a more significant reason for wearing a mask. Because, he would be instantly recognized and mistaken for whichever VIP (possibly even the king), and just the simple act of looking at him would expose who he is and what his job was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.226.238.106 (talk) 19:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Theory: Body Double? 

message: Dear fellow editors,I am leaving the present message out of courtesy to other editors watching this article.I have added the Further reading section just now (diffs), and am planning to expand it with several books, most of them in French, that address the subject but have not yet been used as sources. For example, the 1952 book by Georges Mongrédien is important in two ways: 1. because, as a professional historian, he wanted to assemble and review all the sources and theories available at that time, and 2. because he was not favouring any particular candidate, unlike most other authors on the subject.I am hopeful that the books added in the new section can then be used as sources by any editor(s) who wish to make the article more complete. In the near future, I will first address the current need for more sources, as indicated by the existing templates. Also, in my future edits, I will be able to add notes on translation from French into English, per WP:HOWTRANS. Finally, I am happy to work in collaboration with other editors interested in this article. Thank you.With kind regards;Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 17:09, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Further on from the above, I have now created a List of candidates for the Man in the Iron Mask, and inserted a link to it via a  template placed at the top of the Candidates section. I would now like to re-structure the article using the same chronological order of appearance, while also keeping in one section all the candidates supposedly related to Louis XIV. If any other editor(s) would like to participate in this effort, then I will obviously be happy to work as a team. I will wait for a week or so before starting the rewrite in a sandbox. Thank you.With kind regards;Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 17:09, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding sources and expanding the article 

message: Told by Elizabeth Gray and Ian Robertson 196.159.21.124 (talk) 23:18, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  English