Talk:Islamic views on anal sex

message: Blank Space in Arabic & English Text with three dots in Bukhari Hadith http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.050 is for Anus and is written in all translatons.
"It means one should approach his wife in his anus".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rana Ammar Mazhar (talk • contribs) 17:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Blank Space in Arabic & English Text for Anus

message: The three images of pages of actual books are concrete proof of the issues, do nor remove images.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rana Ammar Mazhar (talk • contribs) 17:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Images as Evidence of Issue

message: Article is extensively sourced. Deletion should only take place after discussion at AFD. If some scholars disapprove, then the subject IS controversial, & so seems noteworthy.
Rana Ammar Mazhar 18:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article is extensively sourced

message: Answer by Rana Ammar Mazhar 18:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anal Oral Intercourse & Shia Site

message: Hi, I just tagged this article with contradiction, POV and cleanup tags.  It's a bit of a mess right now and reads more like Islamic literature or propaganda, rather than an encyclopedic entry.  Here's my reasoning:
===Contradiction===
There are a couple of places where an author has added a statement to "correct" the previous statement. This means we now have two conflicting statements. Some consensus needs to be achieved, or we need to find some other way of expressing the two differing without blatant contradiction.
===POV===
Ststements like: "The wife has to resist this evil action and refuse to respond to her husband's desire to have anal sex." are completely POV. There are plenty more like this too.
===Cleanup===
There are various bolded paragraphs, which I believe should be avoided.  There are also confusing statements, such as:
However, there are Ahadith which allows (anus, in Arabic Dubur: “ فِي الدُّبُر ” ) sex, one in Sunni sect and two in Shia sect. In Sunni sect, a high rated Hadith Book Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60: Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet), Hadith No. 50, [6] allows it, its authenticity and anal sex concept is conformed by a Hadith of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11: Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Hadith Number 2159 [7], whereas the said Hadith itself disapproves along with many other Ahadith in other books except Sahih Bukhari.
Straussian (talk) 04:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added tags 

message: There are various bolded paragraphs, which I believe should be avoided.  There are also confusing statements, such as:
However, there are Ahadith which allows (anus, in Arabic Dubur: “ فِي الدُّبُر ” ) sex, one in Sunni sect and two in Shia sect. In Sunni sect, a high rated Hadith Book Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60: Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet), Hadith No. 50, [6] allows it, its authenticity and anal sex concept is conformed by a Hadith of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11: Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Hadith Number 2159 [7], whereas the said Hadith itself disapproves along with many other Ahadith in other books except Sahih Bukhari.
Straussian (talk) 04:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: Most sources in this article are primary, and hence likely violate OR. I ask users to provide secondary sources for the material, and to source all material.Bless sins (talk) 15:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not fond of the sources provided for the Sistani position. What's the deal, exactly? The websites linked to quote him without themselves providing a reference. Mrbluesky (talk) 14:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've removed the sources and added the  tag there. Hoping someone will come up with something on the statement in Anal Sex and Shia Islam InshaAllah. Peace 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 05:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I've got another thing to say about Sources, this one's for Imam Maliki View. There are four sources there, of which the first leads to a website named tolueislam and the second to ourbeacon. TolueIslam is a site about the views of a certain G.A.Pervez (A highly controversial person who denied the Hadith i.e. the teachings of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH. See Ghulam Ahmed Pervez on Wikipedia; besides, Imam Maliki and Imam Bukhari were both renowned Hadith scholars). Quoting Pervez, (who himself denied these two scholars' authenticity of Hadith,) on their views about this topic simply falls under the category POV. OurBeacon too seems POV because of the fact that it is run by someone called Dr. Shabbir; his personal views on this topic cannot be taken to be those of Islam; MOREOVER the PDF reference from his website for the second link (i.e. for Imam Bukhari) leads to a HTTP404 Page. The third reference (i.e. the one next to (eelaaj) is licit.) too leads to a 404 Page. The last reference is from a site called TheModernReligion () however the article it refers to doesn't provide any references of its own and more importantly it DOESN'T mention Imam Maliki's name anywhere at all! It says "Hanbali books mention that it is lawful for a husband to < suppressed to save space by elAzeez >. They also mention that while anal sex is absolutely unlawful, it is lawful to place a finger on the anus as long as it does not penetrate.". I am thus removing the section in its entirety until someone comes forth by with some reliable sources for these claims. (InshaAllah) Peace. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: There is a lot of unreferenced material, The section "Ijma & Bukhari Hadith" has a reference that forbids anal sex. Similarly, "Quran Commentators View" section has a reference that is opposite to what the content states. Section "Anal sex and Tafseer Tabari" rests on the last two words of the arabic script:فِي الدُّبُر, meaning "in anus", but the joke is that these words DO NOT appear EITHER in the Arabic text, or in the Arabic section of the Urdu translation. Similarly "Anal Sex and Tafseer of Sahih Bukhari Hadith" and "Anal sex and Hanafi sect" simply refer to the some funny image where there is Urdu translation of the Hadith. Having Urdu translation of a Hadith is an interesting way of proving legality of anal sex. Imagine being presented with an Urdu translation of, say, Romeo and Juliet which states (in Urdu) that Romeo was the woman, and Juliet was the man. If you have access to the original material, you can verify it. These sections will be removed. The original Arabic Hadiths are pretty clear, I think. Unflavoured (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Blank space is a blank space... reverting. And you should place ur comment at the bottom of the talk page. Unflavoured (talk) 09:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the... 

message: This page has recently had the cleanup it needed. The English was crap and there were swathes of POV and non-English quotes that did not add anything to the understanding of the topic. I'm by no means against improving and expanding the text but please no wholesale return to the rubbish version that was here originally. Let's not have and edit war and pester admins please, can we discuss changes/additions on here first? Cheers Akerbeltz (talk) 11:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: I have just removed the first reference (dead link) and also replaced the translation of the ayah with that of PICKTHAL found in the given link because it wasn't accurate --41.234.7.23 (talk) 03:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: changes

message: This article have a lot of incorrect information.
In Islam, Anal sex is prohibited among all Muslim scholars.
So, I don't know what is the exact procedure to do that, this article need a significant modifications.129.74.162.158 (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: <sigh> I'm taking this article off my watchlist, too many POV pushers and too much of a who-cares topic. Sorry folks. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In correct article. 

message: This article shouldn't merge with that oral sex related article, because, anal sex isn't an oral sex anyway. It's a penetrative sex, though a toy can use sometimes. But it's not Oral.T@nv!r_ (Talk | Contributions) 03:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge issue 

message: The verse 2:223 is very clear it talks about allowing virtually any POSITION of vaginal intercourse,and NOT any form of sex. 
The  heart of the debate on this subject of verse 2:223 all centered around the meaning of the  "word  حرث harth commonly translated as tillth" For anyone who has even a basic understanding of the Arabic language and its basic vocabularies would know that it refer only to the vaginal intercourse where offspring's production can only be possible to take place, and that is only in the female’ reproductive organ.
Verse 2:223 meaning that Women like the tilth of the soil that has the proper structure, and nutrients to grow and incubate  healthy offspring from a fertilized egg by the male sperm.
:I can't comment on the subtleties of Arabic but from an anthropological POV, there are tranditional belief systems that hold that vaginal intercourse is not the only way of getting pregnant (e.g. the belief that rectal intercourse can lead to blood babies). These of course are "myths" but when analysing an old text, I'd suggest caution in applying what we now think of as "common sense". Akerbeltz (talk) 16:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I added OR tag to the article because many of the sources are primary sources, notwithstanding , this is a very relevant hadith: "Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who has intercourse with his wife through her anus is accursed." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Number 2157  Sole Soul (talk) 09:54, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refuting the Controversial claims about verse 2:223 

message: "QURAN allows only and any position of vaginal intercourse, "Your women are tilth for you (to cultivate/to bring offspring) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him."(PICKTHAL translation)"
I can't see that the quote from the Quran actually does permit only and any position of vaginal intercourse - it tells good Muslims to have sex with women, but it doesn't say that this is the only sex allowed. Something better than this is needed. 
Because this passage is so weak a reference to anal sex (in fact it doesn't mention anal sex at all), I've added two extra paragraphs which do go into the matter, both in terms of the relgious teachings and actual practice in the contemporary Islamic world. I suggest that the passage above be deleted in favour of these paragraphs.PiCo (talk) 05:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes sense. The quote above seems to be against the spirit of WP:PSTS. Gabbe (talk) 07:43, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this passage logical? 

message: I've semi-protected this for a week. If anyone disagrees, if they are an Admin go ahead and unprotect (so long as you put it on your watchlist of course), if you're not, let me know on my talk page. Dougweller (talk) 17:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Doug, maybe this'll make the vandal find something better to occupy his time.--SKATER Speak. 17:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected for a week 

message: I know from my time spent living in the ME (Iraq) that men there practice anal intercourse with women quite frequently, as part of pre-marital (or extra-marital) sex (it avoid pregnancies). Even in brothels, it seems, anal sex is more common than vaginal - the reason in that case seems to be that the experience itself is preferred to vaginal intercourse, although again there may be a desire to preserve vaginal virginity. But no books! Does anyone know of any sources? (By the way, the experience I'm referring to here was entirely what I was told by various Iraqi and non-Iraqi Arab friends - I never did this myself!) PiCo (talk) 03:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need sources for heterosexual anal sex in modern Islamic society 

message: I've removed this long section. It's normally a no-no to delete large amounts of text, but in this section I think it would be difficult to make a case for keeping it - it's just about unreadable. It looks as if it was written by someone who's doubtless a good Muslim and even well-read in the hadiths, but there's no attempt to condense the material into a normal narrative - it's just a jumble of A said this and B said that. As things stand the lead has the best treatment available right now.PiCo (talk) 02:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted section "References for and against" 

message: Is it about Islamic views on anal sex, or is it about Western views on anal sex in Muslim countries ?! Because I feel the recent edit by IP to remove the second paragraph is rather justified. Unflavoured (talk) 09:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't define Islam as meaning shariah law - Islam is a culture, not a law-code. PiCo (talk) 04:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Islam is a religion, not a culture. Unflavoured (talk) 06:55, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Islam is both. The separation between religion and culture is very much a post-Enlightenment, European, one. In India, Israel, Thailand, and practically everywhere outside Europe and America, there's no distinction between the two. Even in still-traditional parts of Europe, such as rural Greece or the Italian south, this is true. PiCo (talk) 07:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So a Muslim from Brazil, a Muslim from Morocco, a Muslim from Turkey, a Muslim from Sudan, a Muslim from Indonesia and a Muslim from Afghanistan all have the same culture ?! Heh. No. Islam is a religion, not a culture. Unflavoured (talk) 08:30, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your concepts need refining - what do you mean by "religion", by "culture"?PiCo (talk) 09:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really interested in becoming your dictionary. Feel free to discuss something else that is more likely to help improve the article at hand. For example: Is this article about Islamic views on anal sex ?! Or is it about Western views on anal sex in Muslim counties !? Unflavoured (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the point you made at the top, and it's an important one. I wouldn't frame it in those words, though - more like: is this article about attitudes on anal sex as reflected in Islamic jurisprudence (Quran, hadiths, and later fatwas and opinions), or is it about how Muslims themselves practice (or do not practice) anal sex? Is Islam more than a law-code? I think it is. PiCo (talk) 10:51, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article 

message: I only just became aware that  exists. Given that it does, I can't see any reason for this article - so I suggest it be merged (anything worth keeping cut/pasted into the other article, and this one made a redirect). Views? PiCo (talk) 08:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: But this article is regarding anal sex, which can be considered different from LGBT issues. Unflavoured (talk) 10:03, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Because anal sex can be heterosexual - and apparently often is. Yes, that's true. PiCo (talk) 10:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is what I was saying. The third paragraph in the article, for example, illustrates this. Unflavoured (talk) 10:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: How about changing the title to Anal Sex and Islamic Culture? I'm trying to get away fro the very narrow focus on Islamic law - talking about Islamic culture might cover that. (What got me started on this was the article Anal sex, which has a set of subsections on various cultures - I think it goes wrong in treating religions as if they were somehow separate from cultures - they are in the modern West, which is secular and multicultural, but not elsewhere). PiCo (talk) 11:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is, there is no such thing as Islamic culture. Allow me to explain: There are various Islamic traditions that are common to most Muslim countries, that is a fact. However, as far as culture goes, most countries have their own distinct culture, sometimes even coming to conflict with Islamic laws. Thus you can have two Muslims from two different countries with completely different cultural backgrounds, traditions, etc etc. To get a rough understanding of this, take a look at the hijab article. Some countries prefer wearing dark plain hijab, some countries have a hijab that cover part of the chin, some countries have hijab that covers the face, and some countries have hijab which shows half your hair, etc etc. I would suggest a compromise solution: Several sections in the article. A main section describing the status of anal sex in Islam, of course taking into account Sunni/Shiite differences, etc. Then add several other sections for each country, or maybe for each region. The cultural views regarding anal sex are quite different from country to country, and as such you could elaborate. Currently the article's main source of information are sources that specifically study Morocco, yet the implication is that these cultural norms are applicable in all Muslim countries, when the truth is that they are much more likely to be exclusive to Morocco. I hope you get what I am trying to say. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 12:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge this article with LGBT topics and Islam? 

message: Ok, let's agree to leave the title. Let's look at how to improve the article. Let's leave the very first sentence (it's just a single para at the top of the article) and come back to it later. Looking at the first sentence of the second para, I think it's begging a question. It talks about shariah, but what happened to the Quran and the hadiths? Those need to be set first. Do you agree? PiCo (talk) 12:26, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a specific verse in the Qur'an regarding this, but of course, there are multiple POVs regarding the verse. The verse is . There is no place in the Qur'an that explicitly states: Anal sex is forbidden. That is one POV. The majority POV, however, is that the verse clearly says no sex during menstruation, and menstruation does not affect anal sex, and thus anal sex is forbidden. As for hadith, you can see the most mentioned hadiths regarding anal sex here: , but please note that Shiites generally do not follow Sunni hadith unless it is endorsed by a Shiite marja'. By the way, shariah IS Qur'an and Hadith, (as well as ijma' and qiyas, of course), so by explaining shariah, you are explaining the Qu'ran and Hadith regarding the issue, and vice versa. If you have no objections, I believe one way that may help to improve readability and open the way for improving the article would be to add a couple of sections. The first sentence can be the lede. Then you can add a new section: "Anal sex in Islamic law", and a third section: "Anal sex in practice." That way, in the Islamic law section, you can fully explain the shariah POV. In the "practice" section, you can explain how many modern Muslims simply do not follow the law, and proceed with the Morocco example, and so on. Unflavoured (talk) 13:20, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

text: I made a small sandbox on my user page to illustrate what I mean: . I just copy/pasted and put the relevant paragraphs in relevant sections, so this is not a comment on the content, just a suggestion for the re-structuring of the article. Unflavoured (talk) 13:24, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your proposed restructure looks fine to me. I still think there's a need for a new paragraph specifically on Quran/hadiths - maybe you don't disagree with that. But the surah you direct me to is problematic - it doesn't mention anal sex, and seems to be entirely about menstruation. Of course, it would be fine to say that some scholars interpret it as being about anal sex. But surely we need to cover the Lut story and it's interpretations. That would seem to cover the Quranic side. Then there's the hadiths. Anyway, I'll have a look later and see if I can make a proposal. PiCo (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with the new paragraph on Qur'an an hadith. As for the verse regarding menstruation, I linked since it used in Shariah as an argument against anal sex. The argument goes something like so: If anal sex is allowed, then why must a couple refrain from sex during menstruation ?! But that is what I recall reading here and there, so if you do not want to add it until I find a source that specifically explains this, that is fine by me. Unflavoured (talk) 04:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a revision based on your sandbox. Only two sections, one on law, the other on society. The one on law is divided into 3 subsections, on Quran, hadith and shariah. Society is only a single paragraph. PiCo (talk) 07:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That is good. I would like to request that this sentence: "Thus one says that "inverts" were common in the Prophet's own tribe and that he was much amused by their wit; others, however, recommend the death penalty" be taken out, unless strong evidence is presented for its authenticity. I believe that there was an incident in Medina when two men were caught practicing sodomy, and the Prophet had them stoned. I will look for it and add it if I can find a source. Unflavoured (talk) 07:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to edit. Surely the incident where the Prophet ordered stoning is itself a hadith? PiCo (talk) 08:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A Hadith is something said by the Prophet. In Arabic, the word "hadith" literally means: "Talk." So if it is an action, it may not be in the Hadith. Unflavoured (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Revising article

message: This article should also include information about Islamic views on pegging (a woman anally penetrating a man using a strap-on dildo). Does anyone know how Islamic jurisprudence views such an act? Ganiasam (talk) 10:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does Islam say about pegging? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Islamic views on anal sex. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120112024143/http://www.wefound.org:80/texts/Ideal_Muslims_files/herhusband.htm to http://www.wefound.org/texts/Ideal_Muslims_files/herhusband.htm
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090215054251/http://www.islamonline.net:80/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547172 to http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547172
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120426091440/http://svis.info/Recordings/Salim%20Morgan/Tafsir/Baqarah_222-223.html to http://svis.info/Recordings/Salim%20Morgan/Tafsir/Baqarah_222-223.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This whole article is just about what the rules of Islam say -- the sacred texts and the scholars. But in practice, many Muslims ignore this. The article ought to address this issue. 2.223.184.219 (talk) 19:51, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many Muslims actually take this seriously? The article ignores this.