Talk:Australian Army

message: Compare Modern equipment and uniform of the British Army. Alphax τεχ 07:17, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
:Hrm, still nothing on the Army website. Alphax τεχ 03:16, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Equipment 

message: To whoever (IP 203.16.225.80) keeps changing the statistics to only 71 Leopard tanks, the ADF has 90 Leopard gun tanks. Or at least the Anzac Steel page on the Leopard thinks so: http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/leopardph_1.htm
As does several other sites such as Defense Industry Daily: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/11/gd-receives-final-416m-delivery-order-for-australian-m1a1-tanks/index.php
and a couple of more important pages like the Australian Army's own newspaper: http://www.defence.gov.au/news/armynews/editions/1060/topstories/story11.htm
and the Australian National Audit Office: http://www.anao.gov.au/WebSite.nsf/Publications/555F03062BE2B6B7CA25700B0077785A see under Section 4 "Track Manoeuvre Systems Program Office" which incidentally also indicates only 59 M1s are being bought.
The ADF has 71 Leopard 1 Main Battle Tanks, the other 19 are recovery vehicles or something. Everything I've read says 71 Main Battle Tanks, not 90. Suck shit.
*Straight to abuse, how nice. Obviously you haven't bothered to read the 4 links I provided. There are 90 AS1 gun tanks, 5 bridge layers and 8 ARVs. Ways 05:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Counting the Leopards 

message: In regards to the bit about recruiting in the main article. Despite the media beatup about falling recruitments the facts are that recruitment is falling in PROFESSIONAL occupations in the Army, like Doctors, Nurses, Dentists etc They are still recruiting the dumb ones ;)
Numbers especially for infantry are that large that the School of Cool, aka the School of Infantry is actually full and that Diggers are getting their IET training directly at the Battalions now. I'd suggest checking this fact out and amending your article :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.167.215.163 (talk) 16:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the article's wrong, why don't you correct it yourself? This is "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" after all. --Nick Dowling 22:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recruiting issues in article 

message: I believe the start class and low importance ratings of this article should be re-evaluated. Especially the low importance rating, considering articles such as Fremantle Prison, 2006 Australian Grand Prix and 2006-07 Australian Capital Territory budget are rated high importance.
Totally agree! The Bryce 11:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article hadn't recieved a rating. I've just rated it as being of high importance. --Nick Dowling 11:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Nick, I actually removed the low importance rating with my edit. I thought it was pretty offensive.RP Bravo 11:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK - my mistake. I wonder why it ever received such a low importance rating ? --Nick Dowling 11:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Ratings

message: "Regular Force" is the templates name given to the link to the basic article "Australian Army" which is misleading; as the article (as it should) gives an overview of both Regular Army and Army Reserve elements.
If some regular member is keen to create an article specifically on the ARA (excluding the reserve elements) in addition to the overall "Australian Army" that would be good.   Linking the entire army, under a reg only link is inappropriate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by TInTIn (talk • contribs) 06:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ?Regular Force?

message: I agree with Nick that the common forms (eg Lt Gen) should be used not the official military abbreviation (eg LTGEN).   I've never seen the latter used in non-military publications. I don't think the argument that the military abbreviation is more correct is valid, perhaps in an article about ranks. Brettr (talk) 06:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a prefix to their names. Proper form should be used of the persons organization. The abbreviations LTGEN and GEN, are no more ugly than say, FM. Conversely, if you would like, we might spell out their rank titles. Which would be more appropriate. --< Nicht Nein! (talk) 06:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The Australian military's capitalisation of all letters in the short version of ranks is not normally used outside the military (for instance, in newspaper articles and books), and as such isn't appropriate here. Wikipedia is not bound by the ADF's style guides when writing about military topics and does not use these capitalisations as they are not generally used. Anyway, Defence generally doesn't use capitalised ranks in its press releases and other publications aimed at the general public (this press release is a good example - the capitalised abbreviation is only used in the bit at the bottom directed at the defence media). Nick Dowling (talk) 08:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I see in the article, I gather you are advocating spelling out their rank titles, good. --< Nicht Nein! (talk) 09:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rank Abbreviations 

message: In the article, size is listed as "26,611 (regular) 15,892 (reservists)". http://www.dfat.gov.au/aib/defence_security.html says this;
[quote]There were more than 51 500 permanent full-time military personnel in the ADF in 2006-07 and over 19 500 Reserve military personnel.[/quote]
That's quite a difference in numbers...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.140.145 (talk) 04:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because those figures are for the whole defence force. --Searle, L. (talk) 03:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

text: Two comments relating to the statement "Military comes from militia". (1) The words "military" and "militia" both come ultimately from the Latin "miles" (genitive "militis") meaning "soldier", but neither of the two comes from the other. (2) When considering what a word means, what matters is what the word is normally used to mean and understood to mean, which is very often quite different from the meaning of another word it is derived from. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:39, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Size of Army?

message: Although a small error, the FN Minimi is actually referred to as the F89 Minimi in the Australian Army, although practically the same thing. 
JTod94 (talk) 01:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect equipment name 

message: I have just finished updating the graphic :commons:File:Australia Land Forces.png to reflect the 2010 reorganization. Two question remains tough:
* are the 21 and 22 Construction Regiments still active or have they been folded into the 19th Chief Engineer Works??
* is the 17 Signals Regiment of the 17 Brigade the same as the 17 Command Support Regiment??
thanks in advance, for answer to these two questions. --noclador (talk) 15:39, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  2010 Reorganization 

message: I have removed the following paragraphs from the article for now, as an article of this prominence is ill-served by the inclusion of un-sourced material. I agree that such information is important as it adds some context to the article, and I am happy for it to be included if reliable citations for it are provided. As a suggestion this could probably be included in a section on capabilities.
The Australian Army is oriented toward low- and medium-intensity operations against symmetric and asymmetric enemies. The Army has traditionally been structured as a light infantry force. This has changed somewhat in recent years, with an increased emphasis on motorised and mechanised forces. In the next few years, two of the seven regular infantry battalions will be mechanised (using the upgraded M113 APC) and two will be motorised (using the Bushmaster). Nevertheless, the motorised and mechanised battalions still train with an orientation toward operations in close combat and have a high emphasis on patrolling and other dismounted operations, thus maintaining the traditional Australian skill set.
Until recently, the main area of operations has been Asia, particularly South East Asia and the Pacific, so the light infantry orientation has not been a hindrance. In fact the Australian Army is known to produce troops and units with a very high standard of jungle warfare, patrolling, ambushing and other infantry skills.
Due to Australia's small population, the Army will always make up only a statistically small role in coalition operations. Successive Australian governments since 1989 have deployed components of the ADF with specific skill sets, so that the Australian contribution is always of greater significance than raw numbers of troops would suggest. Often this has taken the form of the deployment of special forces, though this has changed in recent years, for example in Afghanistan. Australian forces have always trained with and maintained close relationships the US and British forces and are now being equipped to better interoperate with US/British/coalition forces. The defence relationship with US forces is probably now closer than it has been at any point since the Vietnam war, especially at a working level.
Happy to discuss. Cheers. Anotherclown (talk) 13:05, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks accurate, but I agree that citations are needed. There are also differing opinions on these topics which should be acknowledged - for instance, some commentators argue that the Army's infantry battalions are too 'light' to be used in any kind of intensive combat and it's also been suggested that the M113s are now so outdated (even following their upgrade) that the mechanised battalions are ineffective and likely to suffer heavy casualties in open warfare. Nick-D (talk) 23:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree, in fact I had been considering doing the same when I saw it last week but didn't get around to it. Agree also with Nick's comments, the removed text does appear to be broadly accurate, but there are certainly other opinions out there. — AustralianRupert (talk) 23:57, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indeed as you say Nick, a full treatment of the topic would need to consider how the Light Infantry model limited the governments land power options during the 2003 Iraq War, given the concern about involvement in high intensity warfare and house-to-house fighting. Anotherclown (talk) 02:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orientation 

message: While SVG is a preferred format on the Wikimedia projects, SVG images should be the same as the original however this SVG image is not the same is not the same as the original Rising Sun. In the Australian military it is offensive to recreate an historic image which isn't the same as the original and also goes against what Wikipedia is about. Bidgee (talk) 04:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok mate I think you're coming on a bit strong. I'm sure Fry1989 means no disrespect and is only trying to improve the article. Personnally as a serving member I have be staring at a slouch hat for the last five minutes and can find nothing wrong with his addition. It certainly seems to be a clearer image than the current one. Maybe you could actually explain to him what is wrong with it (because its not cear to me). Cheers. Anotherclown (talk) 05:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Bidgee, I'm glad to see someone passionate about the subject, but could you please explain exactly what is wrong with Fry's image? As per what Anotherclown has said, I'm not sure what is wrong with the image that Fry has added. I have served in the Army for five years and difference is not readily apparent to me (I am also looking at my slouch hat right now.) I'm fairly sure that Fry meant no offence by its addition. AustralianRupert (talk) 06:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the SVG (enlarging the SVG shows it well) has random triangles, no white/transplant background above the scrolls of THE and ARMY and the cross on top of the Queens crown is a little larger then it is shown on this "Rising Sun". Bidgee (talk) 06:53, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, yes, I can see the issue with the image not having the transparent background above the scrolls, but the "random triangles" do appear on the real thing (if one looks really closely). They are actually short sun rays/bayonets (depending upon one's take). AustralianRupert (talk) 10:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Bidgee I can see those issues now also. Cheers. Anotherclown (talk) 21:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Would someone be able to upload the SVG file somewhere again? It would be valuable to have it viewable. RonCYA (talk) 13:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rising sun image 

message: I would like to re-open the issue of the recruiting section of the article. From reading the discussion page I surmise that much content that was on the main page has been moved to more appropriate sections, or has been expanded into an article of their own, as more information has been added over time. 
IMO this has made this page informative and concise, providing basic information while acting as a "portal" linking to more specialist pages.
I think that this has left "Current recruiting issues" in the Personnel section as a problem for several reasons:
# The references are starting to get a bit old. An issue from 2006 may or may not be relevant to 2011, but the issues presented (additional recruiting needs, unit de-linking and raising, and a comment volley between (now former PM) John Howard and (now former PM) Michael Somare) are now 5 years old.
# Many of the statements aren't cited or are contradictory. Either there aren't enough recruits or there are too many, but how can there be both? There's no explanation. IMO if the information isn't a current issue then it shouldn't be so prominent (or maybe not there at all).
# Which leads to the final problem, it is particularly over-represented on the main Australian Army page. With all the other sections expanded into other appropriate articles or their own article, this section has been orphaned (in a way) and now appears to take up a disproportionate amount of space on the Australian Army page for what may or may not be an issue any longer. A quick search reveals no active "conversation" on the issue (by which I mean news articles and politician/commentator comments), and those that do reveal that there are TOO many recruits but that there are shortfalls in a few specialist roles.
Although I hesitate to cite the Chicken Little-like incompetence of The Australian on defence issues:
* http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/investigations/swollen-adf-puts-brakes-on-recruiting/story-fn8r0e18-1226065969415
* http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence-missions-in-peril-as-recruitment-drive-stalls/story-fn59niix-1226065198726
I would suggest that the section is deleted and replaced with a smaller one addressing recruiting issues as they are now and not 4-5 years ago. If the information it currently contains is deemed useful if not crucial and needs to be retained, then perhaps a linked article that addresses recruiting and retention issues in the ADF, or even one with a historic perspective (recruiting and retention issues for the ADF is not a new phenomena). This is almost the exact same issue that was raised on the Discussion page four years ago.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113727b (talk • contribs) 20:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, your proposals seem reasonable to me. I've not got much time to help rewrite the section at the moment, though. If you are keen, I'd like to encourage you to have a go yourself, although its probably best to see what some other editors think about it first. If I might offer a suggestion, perhaps you could work on rewriting the section in a sandbox in your userspace and direct editors there to see what you are proposing. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd go further: the current material is hopelessly outdated and no longer relevant. The article should discuss the Army's manpower situation (I recall reading that it's now got lots of infantrymen, but is still very short on technical personnel) but almost none of the existing content is useful for this. As such I've boldly removed the material from the article. Nick-D (talk) 08:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recruiting Issues Redux 2011 

message: When you click on the highlighted text "Forces Command", it links you to the US Army Forces Command page instead of the Australian Army Forces Command page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.137.2.8 (talk) 00:56, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, I've adjusted a point of aim right. I don't think that the Australian version has an article yet. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:56, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forces Command Link 

message: This is the second time I have had to remove the bulk addition of images to this page. Per the BOLD, REVERT and DISCUSS cycle this needs to be discussed BEFORE being added again (see WP:BRD). Whilst I have no issue with adding a few additional images indicative of the history of the organization care needs to be taken not to add too many as it causes overcrowding of the (limited) text. That said my main concern is that several of these images are non-free and need a fair use rationale if they are going to be used. These images are currently used on other articles and have an FUR for that use but not for this article. I believe it would be fairly difficult to sustain an FUR for this article as they are mainly being used decoratively and as such adding them here is only likely to draw the crabs (i.e. image police) and will result in their inevitable deletion and loss to the encyclopedia. Pls acquaint yourself with our image use policy before adding images in the future. Anotherclown (talk) 02:45, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and have just re-removed the images. Nick-D (talk) 06:53, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok still no discussion but I'll continue for the sake of it. With this edit  I restored the removal of an image depicting the Australian Army colours on parade as it seemed far more relevant to the section (entitled "Colours, standards and guidons") than two images of Australian forces in Afghanistan. I am of course happy to discuss this if any other editor disagrees. Anotherclown (talk) 04:30, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of images 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: scale down regular.
ASG.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.225.222.110 (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  2017 changes 

message: The command in chief of the naval and military forces of Australia is vested in the Governor-General as the Queen’s representative.
This should be said clearly that the actual commander is the English queen or king.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.232.161.164 (talk) 22:27, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That's pretty much a paraphrase of Section 68 of the Constitution, which states that "The command in chief of the naval and military forces of the Commonwealth is vested in the Governor‑General as the Queen's representative". As such, the GG is the commander in chief of the ADF, not the monarch. In practice though, the GG exercises no control whatsoever over the ADF, with the elected government doing this. The references at Chapter II of the Constitution of Australia#Section 68: Command of naval and military forces explain this. Nick-D (talk) 03:25, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

text: They're British, not English. GoodDay (talk) 04:11, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commander in Chief: the English royals 

message: I have retooled this section in accordance with the British Army article, with all existing information being moved to the introduction. I may have gone too far by adding specific theatres in the world wars. This is meant to be a summary unlike the dedicated article. Again if anyone wants to revert this fine by me, after all I have haven't provided the sources, it is barebones and anyone will have better editing experience than me. IronBattalion (talk) 04:52, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retooled History Section 

message: i think the rank section needs to be retooled into something like this:
it is much easier to digest than text IronBattalion (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, that would possibly be okay, but wouldn't it duplicate what is already at Australian Army officer rank insignia and Australian Army enlisted rank insignia? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it would, however I would argue this article is supposed to be a summary and legible to read, the current method is not the greatest and the articles you mentioned can go into further detail like different rank insignia for special units and their history. More examples include what the Staff Sergeant did, what ranks were the Staff Officers and what did they do. This is best exemplified by the British Army's page and its resultant rank pages; they still need work as do ours but do you see my point?IronBattalion (talk) 23:05, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, ok, no objections from me, then. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rank retooling 

message: I have a conundrum, recently I have changed the section to include Corps and Regiments. While they deserve a mention in this page, I am starting to doubt that they should be included proper. The current information that I have inserted is as much as I could think to add. Also the references should be either replaced or additional ones added due to the lack of veracity of them. I am hesitant though, any opinions? IronBattalion (talk) 09:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, I wonder if this might be better dealt with in the Structure of the Australian Army article, instead. Thoughts? AustralianRupert (talk) 11:00, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes that would be quite nice, I have already deleted the section (wait for talk posts first before you go through with your plans ... idiot), however due to my relative newness to editing in Wikipedia and the class of the article I am reluctant to do this (he's scared of failure and edits getting rejected ... coward) IronBattalion (talk) 11:36, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, it's all good --  please don't worry too much. It is good to be cautious, but if you make a mistake someone will correct it. I think you have gotten off to a pretty decent start. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert Retooled Current organisation? 

message: I am suggesting that the Aircraft will be merged into the Equipment Section and that the Future Procurement will be transitioned to the Equipment page. The latter would need extra work in transferring the references, we could even merge everything I'm suggesting into that page. This is to reduce unnecessary repetition of sections and provide opportunities to enter the club of 'plunging down Wikipedia's wombat hole' via the potential increase in information.IronBattalion (talk) 10:13, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, yes, that makes sense, IMO. They are all related sub topics of Equipment, so probably should be grouped together. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I'll go ahead with my initial plans then. IronBattalion (talk) 11:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Question, do references transfer if a section is copy pasted onto another page? or do we have to do it Manually? Thanks IronBattalion (talk) 12:06, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, so long as you retain the html/mark up coding they will -- but you need to be careful copy pasting from other pages as copyright is important. For instance, attribution is required per Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I meant from one wikipedia page to another. Thanks IronBattalion (talk) 08:32, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retool Aircraft, Future Procurement? 

message: Hello, I'm trying to add conscription to the Article as a pervasive history throughout the years, and definitely deserves a better mention than being in the 'See also' section. Any thoughts/ideas? Thanks, IronBattalion (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, I'd suggest working it in throughout the narrative, rather than creating a separate section. For instance, perhaps it could be made clearer that the First AIF was an all volunteer force in the World War I section, while in the interwar years section you could mention the changing recruitment policies used to man the Militia. The Second World War section could also contrast the all volunteer nature of the 2nd AIF with the mixed nature of the Militia. Same same in the Cold War section. The current organisation section could also make it clear that the force is currently an all volunteer force. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:13, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Rupert, I'll get onto it over the next couple of weeks IronBattalion (talk) 22:15, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd second Rupert's suggestion here. The tensions between the volunteer and conscript forces are also worth briefly noting (during the world wars, and the post-war periods of conscription). Nick-D (talk) 00:40, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conscription 

message: I'm wondering when does this page come out of Start-class; what issues does it have, if any? This is a) to get me more used to Wikipedia and b) allows me to possibly fix any issues I'm unaware of. Thanks. IronBattalion (talk) 05:25, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day, you can request an independent re-assessment of a military history article's class/rating by posting a request at WP:MHA. I would say, though, that is still currently a start class (albeit close to C-class article). The main issues are that currently there are still a few places needing references (the equipment section mainly and a couple of places I've marked with cn tags). In terms of coverage, the World War I section should briefly mention operations on the Western Front in 1917 and 1918 and the World War II section doesn't really talk about operations in the Pacific after the return of the 2nd AIF divisions (would suggest mentioning Kokoda, Milne Bay, Buna-Gona, Salamaua as part of efforts to blunt the Japanese advance in New Guinea in 1942-43, then detail the shift to offensive operations with Lae, Nadzab, Huon Peninsula in 1943. The final actions in Aitape-Wewak and Borneo should also be mentioned.  Also, I think the interwar years section needs expansion and the point about MFO being a non-UN peacekeeping operation probably should be added to the body (as it appears in the lead currently, uncited).  Technically, also, anything in the infobox should probably also appear in the body of the article with a reference. If all this could be rectified, it would probably be B class, IMO (although I would let someone else assess it as I am too close to the topic). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:49, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is finally complete, Australian Army is finally out of Start–Class.IronBattalion (talk) 21:26, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page's Class 

message: G'day, thanks for your work on this article. I have a few suggestions for further improvements: AustralianRupert (talk) 10:05, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: A couple of suggestions

message: IronBattalion - Not found in any competent dictionary and not suitable for an encyclopedia.  The correct spelling is 'earned'. Neils51 (talk) 23:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The Macquarie dictionary, the official Australian English dictionary (used by the Government) lists both earned, and earnt without qualification. Earnt is acceptable in UK and Australian English. It is perfectly suitable for a page that has the template "Use Australian English" KarmaKangaroo (talk) 05:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Earnt 

message: Please stop the changes to the service numbers outside of the figures listed in the government reports, it's not funny when they're edited to millions of people or "about 7". Thank you Seannie4 (talk) 05:24, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism of service numbers 

message: @Nick-D Can you please explain the revert of rank abbreviations? If this is a page of the Australian Army why are the rank abbreviations not those used by the Australian Army? Currently, it's US Military rank abbreviations. Seems for the purpose of an encyclopedia, and a page about the Australian army should have the Australian Army Abbreviations. KarmaKangaroo (talk) 06:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rank Abbreviations