Talk:Sheets of sound

message: Sorry, I'm turning into one of those people who carps on talk pages instead of editing, but I find myself reading articles on subjects to which I'm not qualified to contribute. In the hope that someone more knowledgeable than I can pick this up, then, here are some thoughts for improvement.
I'm not convinced by some of the assertions in para 2. Did Coltrane really learn multiphonics from Monk? It seems unlikely, since Monk was a pianist; more likely he heard them being played by blues saxophonists and the hard bop players who were influenced by them. Does Coltrane attribute his long solos to Monk? Maybe Monk encouraged it, I'm not sure, but very extended solos certainly aren't typical of Monk's own style. We need some quotes from interviews or books that support and clarify these statements.
I'd also like to see one or more musical examples here. I don't understand what it means to 'arpeggiate three chords simultaneously' (unless it means 'play a scale', or use a Slonimsky-like pattern to build arpeggios on the notes of another arpeggio). I'm also not sure what the 'three-on-one chord approach' is, unless it's the old ii-V-I substitution.
I think it's also worth discussing the relationship between the style that's generated by playing substitute chord sequences on top of each chord, as described in this article, and Coltrane's late style which dispenses with chord changes but retains many of the same features. It's common for 'sheets of sound' to be applied to the later music too, although the harmonic motivation has gone, or at least changed dramatically. Ornette 09:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Coltrane claims that Monk was one of the first to teach him multiphonics, and apparently Porter was amazed enough to add "surprisingly" in his biography of Coltrane.  I don't understand why you find this unusual; examples of musicians influencing each other on different instruments can be found throughout music history.  Saxophonist Charlie Parker was known to have influenced pianist Bud Powell.  Pianist Ran Blake claims saxophonist Ben Webster as a huge influence.  And, according to trumpeter Miles Davis, the revolutionary guitar solos of Jimi Hendrix were influenced by John Coltrane's "sheets of sound" technique, and Hendrix's playing, in turn, influenced Davis.  It is not a coincidence that Davis was recording Bitches Brew while Hendrix was playing Woodstock, as both musicians were playing with each other on the side at the time.  The influence of Hendrix on Bitches Brew is unmistakable.  Who do you think Davis was referring to on "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down"?  I think your skepticism of the influence instrumentalists outside their field have on one another is misplaced.  As for the influence of Monk on the longer solos, Coltrane says that Monk "got me into the habit of playing long solos on his pieces, playing the same piece for a long time to find new conceptions of solos.  It got so I would go as far as possible on one phrase until I ran out of ideas...He gave me complete freedom in my playing, and no one ever did that before." Viriditas (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Ornette's criticism, I've added tenor saxophonist John Glenn to the list of people who influenced Coltrane's use of multiphonics. Viriditas (talk) 10:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I strongly suggest that the whole major-third key relation thing gets kept to a side-thing in this article, unless there is some strong indication that this type of harmony is central to the style. I have always thought that sheets-of-sound is more a textural thing, and can be used by sax players in any variety of harmonic settings. I agree that a musical example would be good.Jazzzguy (talk) 07:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

text: If I understand correctly, a perfect example would be the first 6 or 7 bars of 'Trane's 2nd chorus of "On Green Dolphin St." on '58 Miles.Jazzzguy (talk) 07:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Porter recommends the 1958-09-09 solo in "If I Were a Bell", which can be found on  The Complete Columbia Recordings of Miles Davis with John Coltrane.  Without mentioning the term "sheets of sound", Bill Cole also speaks highly of the solo in his book, John Coltrane. Viriditas (talk) 11:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Great example, thanks! If I have the right idea, that solo was mostly sheets of sound, with bop vocabulary/melody. Later like on Love Supreme he played with the same ryhmic and texture concepts, only with the poly-tonal stuff- still sheets of sound, but with different harmony.Jazzzguy (talk) 09:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some suggestions for development 

message: Ornette asked about the three one one approach.  Here's Porter quoting Coltrane: "In fact, due to the direct and free-flowing lines of his [Davis's] music, I found it easy to apply the harmonic ideas that I had.  I could stack up chords-say, on a C7, I sometimes superimposed an E#b7, up to an F#7, [resolving] down to an F.  That way I could play three chords on one..." (Porter 160) Viriditas (talk) 09:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But is that central to "sheets of sound?" Clearly not all instances of these rapid lines involve this type of harmony.  Again, I think this article needs to distinguish the density (alot of fast notes) and range aspects of "sheets of sound" from the various harmonic concepts that 'Trane was exploring at the time.Jazzzguy (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It might make use of many harmonic ideas or none at all depending on how it was used.  Porter himself says this on p.161. Viriditas (talk) 21:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

text: YES! Thank you, finally. But his is not clear in the article! I'm starting a new section below about the "Modal approach" section, which I find to be very confusing (and not because I'm unfamiliar with the topic area.)Jazzzguy (talk) 05:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Three chords on one

message: Discussion moved from Talk:Giant Steps
I have put forward the arguement ( at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sheets_of_sound ) that sheets of sound is a rhythmic and textural thing.  "Countdown" is all eigth notes, no sheets of sound in there.Jazzzguy (talk) 08:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "What Gitler was hearing was Coltrane's way of superimposing or stacking up chords." (Porter 133).  I've already quoted Coltrane on this in the sheets of sound article.  Coltrane and Porter make it clear that he was emphasizing "harmony rather than rhythm". Viriditas (talk) 09:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Coltrane says it twice in "Coltrane on Coltrane" and Porter confirms it: "What Gitler was hearing was Coltrane's way of superimposing or stacking up chords."  Coltrane writes: "In fact, due to the direct and free-flowing lines of his [Davis's] music, I found it easy to apply the harmonic ideas that I had.  I could stack up chords-say, on a C7, I sometimes superimposed an Eb7, up to an F#7, [resolving] down to an F.  That way I could play three chords on one.  But on the other hand, if I wanted to, I could play melodically." Coltrane goes on to say: "I even tried long, rapid lines that Ira Gitler termed "sheets of sound" at the time. But actually, I was beginning to apply the three-on-one chord approach, and at that time the tendency was to play the entire scale of each chord. Therefore, they were usually played fast and sometimes sounded like glisses.  I found there were a certain number of chord progressions to play in a given time, and sometimes what I played didn't work out in eighth notes, 16th notes, or triplets. I had to put the notes in uneven groups like fives and sevens in order to get them all in.I thought in groups of notes, not of one note at a time. I tried to place these groups on the accents and emphasize the strong beats--maybe on 2 here and on 4 over at the end. I would set up the line and drop groups of notes--a long line with accents dropped as I moved along. Sometimes what I was doing clashed harmonically with the piano--especially if the pianist wasn't familiar with what I was doing--so a lot of times I just strolled with bass and drums."  Porter commented on this quote: "Notice the emphasis that Coltrane places on harmony.  He explains the sheets of sound as well as the complex rhythmic groupings from the point of view of harmony. Both aspects of his music unavoidably resulted from the rapid superimposition of several scales over each chord.  This suggests an emphasis on harmony rather than rhythm" and Porter confirms that with a quote from Coltrane.  Coltrane's solos focused on third relations, and according to Porter, the "effect of this 'stacking' device is that we hear Coltrane getting further and further away from the tonal center of a passage, and then returning.  It is a technique of enriching static harmonies that he continued to use in the 1960s, though his rhythmic approach then was much more direct." Porter concludes: "His 'sheets of sound' in 1958 were sometimes composed of all these harmonic ideas" but "at other times he simply played his diminished-scale patterns at incredible speed."   Gregory Dudzienski on All About Jazz writes: "As he progressed through the 50's, he was becoming more and more interested in harmony. Instead of being mainly concerned with the chords associated with the changes to a tune (although he never lost interest in this aspect of harmony), he was becoming more interested in the related scales. This led to his incorporation of these scales into his improvisations. Many times, the harmonic rhythm of a tune was such that in order to "fit" the entire scale in it would have to be played very fast and often with an uneven metric feel (seven or nine notes over two beats, for instance). This practice resulted in a very cascade-like effect. In 1958 a reviewer, Ira Gitler, termed this type of playing "sheets of sound." For an example of this, listen to "Russian Lullaby" from the "Soul Trane" recording. Another recording that illustrates this type of playing is "Lush Life". It was also during this period that Trane recorded one of his first masterpieces, the great Blue Note recording "Blue Trane." This is some of his very best early work. Check out "Moment's Notice" from that recording to hear some very inspired change playing." Viriditas (talk) 02:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Coltrane specifically says that he was experimenting with harmony, not rhythm: "I haven't experimented too much with time; most of my experimenting has been in a harmonic form."  And, Porter specifically describes the sheets of sound as "Coltrane's way of superimposing or stacking up chords", a "way" that Porter refers to as a "technique of enriching static harmonies".  Ashley Kahn writes: "...he explored harmonic pathways at will, applying the ingrained scalar patterns he had been studying incessently.  His solos became bursts of virtuosity, slaloming through chord changes.  He began to layer notes together in clusters in an effort to pronounce full chords.  His sound became so distinctive that critic Ira Gitler coined a new name to describe it..."  Kahn refers to the sheets of sound as "harmonic flurries".  Martin & Waters in Jazz: The First 100 Years (2005), describe these flurries as a method that utilizes "rapid-fire execution, irregular groupings of notes, unusual phrasing, and technique of inserting several harmonies over a single chord."  Other sources emphasize the method as an improvisational device that "liberates" harmony.  Gates & Appiah in Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African and African American Experience (1999) observe the overall effect: "he combined his astonishing technique with a set of innovative harmonic devices, developing what critic Ira Gitler famously termed 'sheets of sound'." Viriditas (talk) 12:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've responded to what you have said each time.  We have to be very careful not to engage in OR, which is why I've relied only on sources, not my opinion.  Do you have any objection to me moving this discussion to Talk:Sheets of sound?  I want to free this page up for discussion concerning how to improve the album only. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 21:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

text: If you have access to the 1958-09-09 solo in "If I Were a Bell" why don't you upload a sample of it for inclusion on the page?  If you don't know how to do that, go to WP:SAMPLE and follow the links.  It's actually quite easy.  Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheets of sound 

message: OK, I removed the stuff about multiphonics, because that was totally out of context and irrelevent to the article. I also checked your citation and found nothing about "sheets of sound" being inspired by Miles or Monk musically in any specific way, so I deleted that part.  Think of the lyrical way Miles played at the time, it's like the exact polar opposite of "sheets of sound."Jazzzguy (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Porter is referring to  "Coltrane on Coltrane" where Coltrane attributes the development of his harmonic ideas he used in the sheets of sound to the "direct and free-flowing lines" of the music of Miles Davis, especially his "multichorded structures".  Peter Lavezzoli talks about the influence of Monk on Coltrane in the same way in The Dawn of Indian Music in the West (2006).  In both instances, the influence of Monk and Davis are in the context of contributing to the development of the sheets of sound style/period.  Eric Nisenson's Ascension: John Coltrane and His Quest (1995) makes the same point, and other writers have picked up on it.  Paul Haidet cites Nisenson and writes: "Through his interactions with mentors such as trumpeter Miles Davis, pianist Thelonious Monk, and others, Coltrane’s improvisations went from unexciting interpretations of his era’s predominant musical forms to explosive flurries of patterns at speeds so great that the notes seemed to blur together, an effect that fellow musicians and critics came to call sheets of sound..."  As for multiphonics, according to Porter, Coltrane "eventually [integrated] it into his improvising", and several examples are given in relation to his improvisations which include "torrential accumulations of notes", particuarly one at Paris's Olympia Theater, so one can say that his use of multiphonics and sheets of sound during live performances was one aspect of his improvisational soloing style, a style he used later to increase "his control of multiphonics so that he could better sustain a combination of them as a 'chord', or, on the other hand, he could inject them into fast patterns.  Sometimes he produced the effect of two lines weaving at once." Viriditas (talk) 21:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And the original source and content you removed was correct: "Coltrane credited Monk with providing the proper setting for his musical improvement." (Porter)  The sheets of sound is in the context of this "improvement" as the preceding text makes clear, and this is echoed in many other sources. Viriditas (talk) 13:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

text: There's no confusion.  "Sheets of sound" was used alongside extended techniques such as overblowing and multiphonics.  Coltrane used these techniques to extend his range and experiment with harmony.    Baraka's essay on Coltrane talks a little bit about the use of overtones in addition to the sheets of sound, but stops short of mentioning overblowing and multiphonics: "The seeming masses of sixteenth notes, the new and finally articulated concept of using whole groups or clusters of rapidly fired notes as a chordal insistence rather than a strict  melodic progression.  That is, the notes that Trane was playing in the solo became more than just one note following another, in whatever placement, to make a melody.  They, the notes, came so fast and with so many overtones and undertones, that they had the effect of a piano player striking chords rapidly but somehow articulating separately each note in the chord and its vibrating sub-tones...Coltrane's reaction to the constant pounding chords and flat, static, if elegant, rhythm section, was to try to play almost every note of the chord separately, as well as the related or vibrating tones that chord produced.  The result, of course, is what someone termed, "Sheets of Sound" or, more derogatorily, "just scales"."  (Baraka 1998)  Coltrane injected multiphonics into his solos alongside the sheets of sound:  "He increased his control of multiphonics so that he could better sustain a combination of them as a "chord," or, on the other hand, he could inject them into fast patterns.  Sometimes he produced the effect of two lines weaving at once." (Porter)  Regarding "If I Were a Bell", Porter writes that Coltrane "explores the lowest register of his instrument, purposely producing an aggressive honking sound, and extends the upper register as well, reaching up to an altissimo a during the second chorus." During this sheets of sound period, Nisenson acknowledges that Coltrane was using multiphonics in his solos while playing with Miles Davis: "[Coltrane] was still using, now to brilliant effect, some of the harmonic devices he had discovered during the "sheets of sound" period.  But his harmonic, vertical approach was perfectly melded with his melodic attack...one of the things he was working on was multiphonics-trying to play two or more notes on his horn at one time.  In some of the solos he tries for minutes at a time to create multiphonics, fascinating to a student of the instrument but to others an example of "practicing on the stand..."  During a night off from working with Davis around the same time as he was using the multiphonics in his solos, Porter described a solo from "I Mean You" with Monk at the Five Spot: "Coltrane builds furiously until he is beyond double-time, into his sheets of sound, honking, shouting, playing in fast flurries, at one point working his way up on the saxophone, then stopping, then trying it again, going higher."  Porter makes sure to note that "Coltrane was to continue working on multiphonics, eventually integrating it into his improvising".  In Stir It Up (1997), Gene Santoro calls the sheets of sound "notes piling up to suggest stacked harmonies".  Porter said the same thing, observing the effects of these stacked harmonies which took Coltrane away from and back to the tonal center of a particular passage.  While "Harmonique" is  a good example of Coltrane's early use of multiphonics, Coltrane didn't stop here, and by the 1960s, he was "playing with longer cycles that became progressively more removed from the central harmony, leading to further cycles of multiphonics and overtone screams." (Hasse 2000) Coltrane's use of multiphonics took root during the sheets of sound period, and blossomed during his Avant-garde/second quartet period (1965–1967), and as such, are highly relevant to this article in terms of their use, and in the broader context of the overall evolution of Coltrane's style and technique.  No encyclopedia article exists in a vacuum; This article exists in a continuum between the Hard Bop of the 1950s and the Avant-garde jazz of the 1960s.  It is perfectly acceptable to discuss the influences of Monk and Davis on the sheets of sound, and the increasing use of Coltrane's multiphonics.  The sheets of sound represents both a technique in and of itself and a period in Coltrane's career when this technique was used in conjunction with other harmonic explorations.  All of these topics are relevant to this article. Viriditas (talk) 13:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision of "Style" section 

message: Should this be it's own section? "Sheets of sound" was not used solely on modal compositions (e.g. "If I Were a Bell" wasn't modal). This section needs major clean up. It just brings up a bunch of concepts and doesn't explaiun their relevence. I vote for the alternative heading "Harmonic considerations," because thats what is talked about here mostly. I could go on...Jazzzguy (talk) 05:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The modal underpinnings are pretty clear and supported.  The section is supported by various sources in addition to the current ones, including Litweiler, John. (1990). The Freedom Principle: Jazz After 1958. p. 88. and Martin, Waters, et al. (2005) Jazz: The First 100 Years, p.283. Viriditas (talk) 12:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: After reviewing the literature, several authors suggest that this period best represents Coltrane's "vertical" approach.  The modal period is usually defined as 1960-1963, so I've changed the heading to avoid this confusion. Viriditas (talk) 14:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Excellent criticism.  Although the referenced source answers your questions, when I have some time, I'll try and fix it to address your points.  I think Kahn's Kind of Blue: The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece might clear up some of the issues, but feel free to jump in. Viriditas (talk) 11:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Looks good.  I'll be checking in and out for the next few days.  Once I finish the newsletter for WP:HAWAII, I'll jump back in. Viriditas (talk) 10:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Modal approach" section 

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