Talk:Harghita County/Vote

message: This poll is now closed. Feel free to add comments, but please don't edit the Votes section below anymore.
===Votes===
Voters please indicate which of the reasons below you vote for, or if other reason pls specify.
Options:
*Provide the names of Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the names of Counties of Romania in Transylvania. Reasons:
::#Hungarian-speaking locals in some of said counties use the names of the former KoH administrative divisions to refer to the counties of Romania. (Applies to counties where the Hungarian name for the current RO county is identical to the name of the former KoH comitatus, and significant ethnic Hungarian population exists.)
::#The geographical area covered by some of said counties is identical to the geographical area of a former KoH comitatus. (Applies to counties where such similarity between former KoH and current RO administrative units exists.)
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*Don't provide the names of the Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the names of the Counties of Romania in Transylvania. Reasons:
::#no criteria, total mess - Administrative divisions of Romania are not "former Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary". there is no continuity or "legacy" between the administration of the Kingdom of Hungary and the administration of Romania. 
::#trespassing international conventions and Romanian sovereignty - present-day Romanian official names of Counties of Romania don't have Hungarian alternates. Nobody in the world uses the name of a county of the Kingdom of Hungary from 1900 when referring to a county of Romania from 2000 ... even if it is in Transylvania except irredentists
::#interference - providing the names of the administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary in the leading paragraph as alternates for the names of the counties of Romania from Transylvania attaches the message Transylvania is Hungarian to those articles..
::#not encyclopedic - Britannica doesn't provide the hungarian name of the administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the romanian names of the counties of Romania. see Mures county in Romania in Transylvania.
::#irredentism - propaganda for the claim "Transylvania is Hungarian", the real reason for providing the names of the counties of Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the names of the counties of Romania in Transylvania.
::#no relevance, no logic - what's the relevance, what's the logic in providing the name of a county of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternate for a county of Romania from Transylvania ? other than "Transylvania is Hungarian" ?
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#don't provide - all reasons above -- Criztu 13:05, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Survey: about providing or not providing the Hungarian names of [[Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary]] as alternates for the Romanian names of [[Counties of Romania]] in [[Transylvania]]''

message: Voters please indicate which of the reasons below you vote for, or if other reason pls specify.
Options:
*Provide the names of Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the names of Counties of Romania in Transylvania. Reasons:
::#Hungarian-speaking locals in some of said counties use the names of the former KoH administrative divisions to refer to the counties of Romania. (Applies to counties where the Hungarian name for the current RO county is identical to the name of the former KoH comitatus, and significant ethnic Hungarian population exists.)
::#The geographical area covered by some of said counties is identical to the geographical area of a former KoH comitatus. (Applies to counties where such similarity between former KoH and current RO administrative units exists.)
-------------------
*Don't provide the names of the Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the names of the Counties of Romania in Transylvania. Reasons:
::#no criteria, total mess - Administrative divisions of Romania are not "former Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary". there is no continuity or "legacy" between the administration of the Kingdom of Hungary and the administration of Romania. 
::#trespassing international conventions and Romanian sovereignty - present-day Romanian official names of Counties of Romania don't have Hungarian alternates. Nobody in the world uses the name of a county of the Kingdom of Hungary from 1900 when referring to a county of Romania from 2000 ... even if it is in Transylvania except irredentists
::#interference - providing the names of the administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary in the leading paragraph as alternates for the names of the counties of Romania from Transylvania attaches the message Transylvania is Hungarian to those articles..
::#not encyclopedic - Britannica doesn't provide the hungarian name of the administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the romanian names of the counties of Romania. see Mures county in Romania in Transylvania.
::#irredentism - propaganda for the claim "Transylvania is Hungarian", the real reason for providing the names of the counties of Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the names of the counties of Romania in Transylvania.
::#no relevance, no logic - what's the relevance, what's the logic in providing the name of a county of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternate for a county of Romania from Transylvania ? other than "Transylvania is Hungarian" ?
--------------------
#don't provide - all reasons above -- Criztu 13:05, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Votes

message: I have removed the survey listing in Criztu's absence. We had originally decided on a 2-week poll, which should therefore have ended on 1 August. (However, as all of the above votes were cast before this date, this is not a problem.) I see no reason to consider any of the votes invalid, which means that "provide" has a majority of 71.4%. This being above the 60% limit that was initially suggested (and not objected to by anyone), my reading is that consensus is reached. KissL 14:42, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Evaluation

message: * Where is this survey? I can't find it.
*:I think those in favour of providing the names of the administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary as alternates for the names of the administrative divisions of ROmania should present their reasons, so the voters could understand both parts -- Criztu 11:22, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Anittas, Criztu is talking about county/judeţ names, not city names. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 14:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: names of rivers/lakes/mountain/etc. entirely in ROmania should be designated by their Romanian name. names of rivers/lakes/mountains/etc. shared by Romania with its neighbours are designated by the name known in the country where the river/lake/mountain/etc. has a more consistent presence, and the name by which the river/lake/mountain/etc. is known in the country where it has a lesser presence is offered as alternate. See Tisza(Romanian: Tisa) and Somes(Hungarian: Szamos) rivers. Lake Saint Anne (Romanian: Sfanta Ana) is entirely in ROmania. therefore the hungarian name of the lake (Szent Anna) should be provided in the Magyar Wikipedia not in the English Wikipedia. -- Criztu 18:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Jmabel, the "Lake Saint Ann issue" is about Lake Sfânta Ana. It is a lake, as Criztu says, entirely in Romania, but to my knowledge, there has never been a Romanian majority population in that area, at least not in the last one thousand years (see also Băile Tuşnad or just Harghita for current demographic data). I think that in such a case, although the Romanian name is the official one and therefore it should be used as the title of the article, the name used by the local majority population deserves mentioning (if for no other reason, then because an English-speaking tourist will find it much easier to get along with the locals using that name). You can see Criztu's opposing standpoint above. KissL 07:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: KissL and everyone, one more thing I don't understand is this recurring "english speaking tourist issue". Do we write the encyclopedia for them? Is their best interest the main criteria to organise/add/delete content? I think most of the users of these pages are non-english natives. Personally, if I invest time and contribute, then I expect to be served on my turn; I hope that my voice doesn't count for less than that of an "english tourist" in deciding what matters and can stay and what is to be deleted. And if you all are working on this english encyclopedia, it's surely because English is a federating language allowing knowledge from different sources to be put together - that will certainly never be the case with Hungarian, Romanian or any other language. Without meaning to offend, I thing Hungarian (or French or any "other" language) encyclopedia is a joke - written by people who don't speak English or are too blind/nationalist to realise the importance of English, or perhaps people who want to keep knowledge for their own community instead of sharing with the world. (Ok, i exagerate; I also wrote once or twice into those "other" encyclopedias. But always things that were already in the English one.)  Akiss 08:12, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I said "English-speaking tourist" not "English tourist" (and also, "if for no other reason"). I think we write the encyclopedia for those who understand English. I'm not into discussing the importance of other encyclopedias in this thread. KissL 08:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course, "English speaking" I meant. And sure, the point was not discussing the importance of other encyclopedias. That "if for no other reason" was that I thought some might interpret as informing the "tourists" may be more important than preserving knowledge. Anyway the point was, are we writing for ourselves, or altruistically for others? To answer those who try to show us the door with "go away and write things that concern only your people into your people's encyclopedia". Akiss 09:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh right. Well, the Hungarian name remains "knowledge" only as long as many Hungarians live there, in which case the "tourist" analogy also applies; but, admitting that the English language encyclopedia is the most likely to attract worldwide interest (which seems to be disputed though I agree with it), your argument for the same thing is also valid IMO. KissL 09:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: discussion from [[Talk:Harghita]]

message: Wouldn't this survey be better placed on a more visible page, similar to the Talk:Gdansk/Vote page? The majority of contributors interested in the subject probably will not know about it when it is only on the Talk page for Harghita. Olessi 21:09, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey Placement

message: I suggest two separate statements, to be voted on separately (that also shows my position, but everyone knows it by now anyway):
#"In articles about geographical entities (including administrative units) in Romania, provide also the Hungarian name of the entity in question, if that name is used by over 20% of the local population."
#"In articles about administrative units in Romania being geographically at least 95 percent identical to a former administrative unit of the Kingdom of Hungary, provide also the name by which the former Kingdom of Hungary administrative unit was known." (This kind of resembles what Criztu wants to vote on.)
KissL 16:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What is the statement people will be supposed to "Support" or "Oppose" in the poll?

message: I suggest we decide the statement first, then write our arguments up, and then summarize. KissL 16:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: In what form shall we present the supporting and opposing arguments?

message: I suggest 2 weeks. KissL 16:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How long shall the poll last?

message: well, i;'ve listed the survey over at Current Surveys page, waiting for 2 weeks see what people think -- Criztu 12:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey listed in Current Surveys, waiting 2 weeks for results 

message: i have opened a case regarding the naming convention of administrative divisions of Romania at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-17 names of administrative divisions of Romania Criztu 16:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good.--Eliade 14:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Those hungarian words will be deleted.--203.109.33.34 08:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: dispute resolution