Talk:Black Stone/Archive 1

message: Is that a real photo of the rock? I thought pictures of it were forbidden.
This article states: "It is the cornerstone...", but  states "In the Eastern corner about 5 feet above ground the Hajar el Aswad (the blackstone) is fixed into the wall."
Can anyone confirm which is true, preferably from personal experience?
:This photograph shows how it is built into the cornerstone.  —No-One Jones 04:52, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo

message: I read that there is a golden cover of the black stone in the topkapi museum in Istanbul, Turkey.
See  Image: 
The golden cover displayed was once the cover of the Hacer-ül Esved stone, the black stone which “fell from heaven” within the Kaaba.
Does anyone know how it came there? Could it have something to do with the Qarmatians that took it for 22 years?
I don't know, but Mecca was governed from Istanbul for 400 years (1517-1916) as part of the Ottoman Empire. So it probably was brought to 'the capital' during that time, after it had been replaced by a new one. Prater 17:04, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cover of the black stone 

message: An anon editor added more traditions re the Black Stone, phrased as if all Muslims believed them. I worked them into the presentation, used English rather than Arabic, and tried to remain neutral between various Muslim beliefs about the Black Stone. Zora 18:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon editor's additions 

message: If "idolatry" is added just a link, without explanation, it is effectively an accusation. Therefore I rewrote the article so that the question of idolatry is put front and center, and discussed from several viewpoints. The idolatry link is found IN the article, not in the See Also list. 
I also added bit re meteorite. I should probably source it. Wouldn't be hard, but I just don't have time to do the research now. I know I've seen it in several sources, not just one. Zora 00:45, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Idolatry 

message: I believe that a link to Idolatry is necessary here, as that article goes in depth covering all aspects of "idolatry". It even points out the views of idolatry in Islamic thought. If there is going to be a paragraph about "idolatry" and the black stone, I think that a link to the article on idolatry is a good thing to get more than 1 religious perspective on it.
: It IS linked, in the article. Twice. As idolatry and as shirk. Zora 02:31, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Idolatry 

message: What do you think that they're bowing to when they drop and turn to the east 5x a day? You have got to be kidding me. Please quit vandalizing the article. I cannot believe that Wikipedia does not even have a proper article on the Black Stone. It is something held close to 800 million people. Zora, you don't "own" this article.
: Muslims are bowing to the Kaaba, not the Black Stone. Anyone INSIDE the Kaaba doing the daily prayers bows towards the outside, towards the walls of the Kaaba, and not the Black stone. People outside the Kaaba face the wall of the Kaaba closest to them, and not the Black Stone. 
: One Islamic site I skimmed had an opinion piece re the Hajj, saying that kissing the Black Stone was a pernicious custom, not to be indulged. The only reason for the Stone, said the article, was to mark a corner so that believers would know when they'd made one full circuit. I don't think every Muslim believes this -- some must hold the beliefs about the Stone absorbing sins -- but it seems as if the site would represent at least one segment of Muslim opinion. 
: A difference of opinion does not constitute vandalism. Zora 10:20, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Re: Idolatry 

message: Just a little query. The article seems to use both 'Black Stone' and 'Stone' after the introduction. Should we just use one or the other for consistency ? ---Mpatel 15:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been switching between the two just so the prose doesn't become monotonous. It's purely a style decision. Zora 18:03, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Stone' 

message: MPatel, you added the bit re disagreement as to who could replace the stone ... in the usual version, followed by a story about Muhammad suggesting that they put the stone on a cloak and raise it jointly. I believe the oldest version of that story is found in Ibn Ishaq, and it reads very much like a folk tale. Various secular historians have expressed skepticism about the tale, saying that a penniless orphan living in his uncle's house was not likely to have been consulted by the heads of all the Quraysh clans in a matter of some political delicacy. I strongly object to that story being inserted in the article as if it were an accepted fact. I'll try to rewrite it. Zora 18:03, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It probably is a folk tale.  I remember my grandmother telling me it when I was younger, along with the story of the old lady who would always through garbage at Muhammad's house ;).Heraclius 18:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Story re rebuilding of Kaaba 

message: The 'Significance of the Black stone' section has many beliefs about the Black Stone. The first one has a citation, but the rest desperately need some. Even some solid external links would be a start. MP   (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More sources needed 

message: Because the picture that we had was removed for possible copyright violation. Someone needs to supply another picture. Zora 18:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kaaba has a picture of the Black Stone so I've added it to this article. Mazer 19:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: looks like the image has been scanned from a publication, though the uploader has tagged it as PD. ITAQALLAH 15:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why on earth is there no picture? 

message: Someone added a statement from a medieval Christian writer claiming that the black stone was the head of a goddess. No one now believes that, and a random thousand year old slur doesn't deserve prominent treatment in the article. Zora 18:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  John of Damascus