Talk:ETA (separatist group)/Archive 2

message: Does anyone wish to integrate , or is it too lacking to have any relevance? Joffeloff 22:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceasefire 

message: According to the Spanish minister of war and Spanish media, the "permanent" word hints of IRA ceasefires but I have not find that word in PIRA's ceasefire communiqués. --Error 05:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Permanent

message: The TV images from the DVD have quality footage of ETA mise-in-scene with the three flags, the hoods and the berets.
Could somebody take a big frame and upload it?
I am not sure if it qualifies for Commons but it would for fair use.
--Error 06:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: User:Chymicus has changed "ETA commandos have teamed with the Breton Revolutionary Army to rob explosives from magazines in Brittany." to "ETA commandos have teamed with the Breton Revolutionary Army to steal explosives from magazines in Brittany.".
Is "steal" a better English word than "rob" for taking them at gunpoint?
--Error 23:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Taking explosives from Brittany

message: User:Thumperward has removed the line 
* Anonymous citizens, some of them children
with "You can't include "and anonymous others" in a list which starts with "amongst others". Until the qualifier is reworded, this is inappropriate".
I had previously reverted him with ""among others" includes non-anonymous citizens like foreign diplomats."
How can we mention that ETA has killed passers-by or unspecific citizens without mentioning every kind of victim?
--Error 00:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They should be listed as collateral casualties. As it is written it seems that ETA aimed specifically to kill them indiscriminately, what is not the case. --Sugaar 12:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: among others

message: By far the most common meaning of ETA is Estimated time of arrival. "ETA" should go to Estimated time of arrival with a disambiguation statement at the top for Euskadi Ta Askatasuna. -DoctorW 22:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would make sense if this were Wiktionary instead Wikipedia. I think the current usage has far more encyclopedic value but feel free to place a request at WP:RQM if you think otherwise. --E  Asterion u talking to me? 00:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Asterion. This is a much more likely thing for someone to look up in an encyclopedia. - Jmabel | Talk 05:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Common meaning of ETA is "Estimated time of arrival"

message: :"While these claims are hard to verify, it should be noted that most convictions are based on confessions obtained while prisoners are held "incommunicado" without access to a private lawyer or other advocate and that these confessions are routinely repudiated during trials as having been extracted under torture."
If I understand this para right, the article says:
*most convictions are obtained from incommunicado confessions, that seems reasonably true
*those incommunicado confessions are repudiated because the judges consider them the fruit of torture. This contradicts the earliar part. If the confessions are repudiated, they cannot be the basis of a conviction. And I doubt that judges routinely declare instances of torture.
It seems that little editions eroded the original sentences. 
--Error 01:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I presume it means repudiated by the person who confessed. You don't normally "repudiate" someone else's words. - Jmabel | Talk 06:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I misunderstood the meaning of "repudiate". Thanks. Inglis díficol. --Error 23:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Torture

message: Hey Asterion, I've seen your personal page and I understand you are a Spaniard yourself. Something tells me that you are not a nationalist (whether Basque, Catalonian, Galician, anywhere: I just don't care, but they are pretty active in the Spanish related stuff) therefore I thought you are the right person to address this question: why ETA shouldn't be described as a terrorist organization? If ETA is not a terrorist group, which one is? I'm asking since I once changed the description myself and it got reverted to the damn "paramilitary" by the usual nationalist. However I see now that someone else changed it and you revert it back to "paramilitary" Is there like a wikipedia list detailing which are considered terrorist organizations and which are not? where? who made it and based on what? Thanks, mate. Mountolive 04:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks mate is not enough for a first contact, sorry about that, actually I meant thank you very much in advance :). Mountolive 04:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I know you addressed Asterion on this, but since you placed it here rather than a user talk page, I'm going to respond, after a fashion. Please see Wikipedia:Words to avoid. I'm not a nationalist of any sort, but I would also revert this. - Jmabel | Talk 21:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much, Jmabel, for your clear up. Yes I posted this in the ETA's talk page rather than in Asterion's implying that I was willing for anyone to reply, as long as they are not the habitual nationalists or other people who don't like Spain, since their view is well known around here and quite biased all the same. 
I have checked the page which you mention (which I didn't know: thanks again). I believe is quite mild, if not tollerant itself, with the terrorism, however I guess there are reasons for that and I won't be the one who tells wikipedia how to do their thing. Following their guidelines, what I will do is edit and put right next to the "paramilitary" thing the fact that the band is regarded as terrorist by the EU and United States, I'll do it carefully in a way that the wikipedia policy in this is observed...however I am quite pessimistic and I expect the nationalists reverting it back again: unfortunatelly looks like they have made theirs this entry. If you agreed with my version, I would appreciate it if you could "defend" it, if only for a while...
Thanks again Mountolive 22:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I've been on and off wikipedia for a while. Apologies if I missed this. Jmabel is spot on with his answer. Also see WP:NPOV for details on wikipedia neutral point of view policy. The word terrorist can be seen as semantically loaded, therefore not neutral. Best regards, --Asteriontalk 17:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, Asterion. I have posted a new version which intends to be final and, to my surprise, is still there (I don't know for how much longer). I know the term terrorist can be semantically loaded but you may agree with me that the absence of the term terrorist can also be very much politically loaded and this is something which wikipedia guidelines seems to forget or just overview. As I said before, if ETA is not a terrorist group then there are no terrorist groups in the world, which unfortunatelly is not true. Anyway, I understand the wikipedia guidelines in this regard and so I have adjusted my last version to those hoping that is good enough. We'll see. Thanks. Mountolive 01:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This is for Asterion

message: Indymedia Barcelona has pictures of the last Gudari Eguna in Aritxulegi that are labelled as Public Domain.
You may want to upload them to Commons.
--Error 22:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: Folks, I'm not really comfortable with the "repression" word. The government action in this regard is called "law enforcement", for example, the government doesn't "repress" thieves, the government just applies the existing laws to thieves.
This is obviously -and tellingly- a literal translation from the Spanish word used by the ETA-friendly boys&gals. I say tellingly because it reveals what was in the menu back in the day of the guy who wrote it.
The word "repression" is biased as it comes from one side of the story.
Anyone out there has an idea of a likely substitute? I'd simply say "action" but I trust you guys have something just smarter than that.. Do you? Mountolive 01:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So? Mountolive 05:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Repression in the Basque Country include not just ilegal actions (GAL, torture), that are or have been widespread, but also repression of political and cultural activities. The recent "legal" trend of repression (using the judiciary to restrict liberties, closing newspapers, prosecuting and pressuring civil organizations, forbidding political acts, etc.) is also repression, even if it is law enforcement: enforcement of repressive laws in an arbitrarily repressive form. The detention and processing of ETA or street fight militants is not the main matter here but the repression against people who is not related (at least directly, and in many cases in any way at all) to them. The detention, toture and liberty without charges after two years in jail is repression. The dispersion of militant prisioners, forcing their families to spend all their weekends on the road, is repression. Some of the repression is legal (because laws have been created to allow it), some is illegal and some is just arbitrary. But "law enforcement" seems to be the simple detention and trial of people involved in criminal activities. --Sugaar 23:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Government repression?

message: There was some talk that the French change of attitude was influenced by the concession to Alsthom of the building of the first batch of AVE trains in spite of the German proposal being better or cheaper.
Is it uncontroverted enough to insert in the article?
--Error 22:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is highly speculative if not neighbouring the usual conspiracy theory, don't you think? Mountolive 02:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: AVE

message: Dont you think this article has gotten too long? I do. 
In my opinion, the "History" section could be heavily trimmed or just made out of the entry while all the info appearing there would go in a more specific, detached, article covering ETA's History. I mention this section as the most suitable part to be trimmed because it goes quite in depth with events happened some 20 years ago, while people may be more interested in recent events. I am not sure whether a historic part is still needed here in the ETA article (for the context and all the other sections are history) or it should go in a different, related, entry, but if you think it was still needed in the ETA entry, then I think it should be really debased for the sake of an overall better article, in my opinion. Mountolive 05:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean those During Franco's dictatorship, During transition and Under Democracy parts. These could be in a different, related, article thus leaving the main entry significantly reduced, much more reading friendly and still very much informative.Mountolive 05:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Move it if you want to History of ETA. ETA (pm), ETA (m) should be merged there. We should have something also about ETA berri. --Error 20:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mhh...believe me: it is not that I am lazy like a Spanish hidalgo, but I am not very skilled nor very familiar with major edits to do this. I am just afraid that if I do this myself I will make a mess with all the frames, etc...would you -like a good Biscayne hidalgo- move the headers I mention above for me into the History of ETA?.. Mountolive 23:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Too long?

message: If you are interested in what kind of people joins ETA, Miren Alcedo "Profesora de Antropología Social en la Universidad del País Vasco" published Militar en ETA  , a book based on interviews with ETA members until the end of the 1980s.
I have not read it, though.
I found an article Experiencias de vida de los militantes de ETA with the disappointing sentence: Es imposible lo que tal vez gustaría a algunos: elaborar un retrato-robot del etarra.; and another, Mujeres de ETA: la cuestión del género en la clandestinidad.
I guess that the modern ETA "soldier" is in some aspects different from the elders: they come from the street violence and are less educated both militarily and politically.
But I may be parroting prejudices.
--Error 00:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Who becomes an ETA member?

message: I've rewritten the terms in which the inccident of Sep. 23 following the letter of the referenced article in the Independent Online, it was somewhat POV-twisted, so I've put all declarations literally as reported by this paper. 
I've also added and referenced the last news on ETA pondering (in Zutabe) a possible end to the ceasefire if no steps are taken by the government. --Sugaar 03:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceasefire section 

message: Does somebody know if these movies are related to ETA?:
*La ETA, 1974
*Perseguidos, 2004
--Error 06:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny :) --Error 21:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Added, thanks. --Error 21:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Movies