Talk:Karl Rove/Archive 6

message: Everyone can breathe a breath of fresh air now, BigDaddy is outta here.  If there is anyone who feels that his points were valid, please bring it up now so that at the very least, the small bit of rationality he posessed will be addressed, as once again, this was not an attempt to silence him.  I'm all for including a quote from a conservative group in the 9/11 savagery quote section as per BD.  I look forward to getting back to civily discussing changes to this article and bringing about balance. On a side note, Halle-frickin-lulljah. :) --kizzle 04:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL Yeah as I said all along, his views didn't bother me. His methods did. I have no problem with adding a conservative quote or two in the savagery section. What was so frustrating with BD is that if he behaved, I know he could get done alot of what he wanted to get done. --Woohookitty 05:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not the point. You're missing the point of core of most current Bushism; emotional illness. If people have even the germ of the ability to look rationally at a situation without activating the primitive reptilian threat-defense system, they will have given up on the Bushies by now. Look at the news; even their stalwarts are questioning the administration.Gzuckier 18:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean Slate 

message: I never was involved in the editing of this article...it was more trying to stop BD. So I'll watch from now on, but if anyone needs my assistance, let me know. --Woohookitty 23:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anywho 

message: So far, I've blocked 3 of BD's sockpuppets. This last one was a IP addy beginning with 68. He had used an IP starting with that before. --Woohookitty 09:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's over dude, you got banned.  Go read a book or go out and socialize, or find a hobby. --kizzle 17:52, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warning 

message: I suspect that User:John Henry, who is currently working on this article, is a sockpuppet for disruptive user User:JimmyCrackedCorn, who is probably also using the account User:DEastman.  Just a heads-up for users on this page.  You can see some of his more infamous tactics (particularly regarding trying to insert the "evacuation plan" everywhere) on Talk:Ray Nagin. · Katefan0(scribble) 18:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here we go again with the evacuation plan... 

message: Kizzle et al: Validity is not determined by emotive processes. It makes no difference how anyone "feels" about the points he raised, since validity is based on truth, fact and logic, which BD presented, and which you (sorry) haven't. Since you haven't cleared up your confusion about the fundamental differences between reason and emotion, you, at least, had better stay away from determining the validity of one thing or the other. As far as I can tell, BD was shouted down. You've knocked Piggy off the cliff. Three cheers for you lot. 
"The human race, to which so many of my readers belong, has been playing at children's games from the beginning, and will probably do it till the end, which is a nuisance for the few people who grow up." 
151.205.139.149 22:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, but I never was arguing against the validity of BD's edits. See the intro to the RfC again.  I felt that he had the ability to positively contribute valid edits based upon truth, fact and logic, it was just hard to see it through the barrage of personal attacks he waged against us.  That is also why the very first post I made on this page was a call for anyone who felt similar along the lines of BD to voice their opinion so that the rationales BD brought up on this talk page would not be forgotten along with his tirades.  You are more than welcome to bring up any points he made.  And for the continued interest of volunteer editors here, which is the very lifeblood of Wikipedia and the key to its long term survival, it requires a congenial atmosphere that is conducive to rational and civil debate free from ad hominem attacks, so I do think that there are aspects of significance besides the sheer logical coherence of one's arguments. --kizzle 22:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BD777 did plenty of shouting on his own -- much more than anybody else around here. Shall we discuss content now? · Katefan0(scribble) 22:31, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen to that. --kizzle 22:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  nuisance 

message: Let's not make changes like John Henry made without discussion. --Woohookitty 08:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just did a major reversion 

message: Can we please remove the article-wide NPOV tag and replace it with section NPOV tags, if there are any current NPOV allegations.  
Also, could anyone who feels that a particular section suffers from a POV problem please start a discussion on that section below?  Please list with some specificity your concerns: particular sentences, details, turns of phrase, content ... whatever.  That way, we can address and resolve them in an orderly fashion.  Thank you. Derex @ 18:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. I should add that if NPOV tags are not accompanied by a resolvable complaint, those tags may be removed. · Katefan0(scribble) 19:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Passage: Karl Rove is my hero
----
Discussion:
That is the most NPOV thing I've ever heard. --kizzle 19:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  (insert one line description of passage here) 

message: I'm going to keep reverting the removal of that comment about Rove's divorce being caused by his homosexuality. Need to hear arguments for its removal. Maybe we could find a better source for that information?? The source we use is a bit biased. --Woohookitty 00:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rove and alleged homosexuality 

message: This story sounds like something out of The Onion. Outrageous and dubious. Laughable and damaging to wikipedia's credibility.
I removed the link just because I read the story and it does not mention a link between his alleged homosexuality and his divorce. If someone else can find it, great. Otherwise, it shouldn't be in there. I see people mentioning his possible homosexuality but not tied to his divorce. --Woohookitty 07:53, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homosexual link highly questionable 

message: In the article, after Joseph Wilson's name, it says "(Kerry supporter)" - which while it may be true, I fail to see how it relates to the outing of his wife. It said "(who donated $1,000 to Al Gore's campaign)" or something similar that might be a little better. Honestly, I don't even know if it belongs there at all, but my suggestion above - I think - sounds like a good idea if one is to mention his political leanings. Although, in the interest of fairness, wouldn't it be necessary to mention that he actually met Saddam Hussein personally in the early '90s and that former President George H.W. Bush commended him. Just my two cents.
-- Garden Stater 22:21, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment about Wilson 

message: When watching the movie Bush's Brain, they claim that Karl Rove was fired from the Reagan-Bush campaign for leaking information to Robert Novak. Does anyone know about this, or did the directors just make a mistake with regard to date and campaign? -- Garden Stater
:Hi Garden Stater, welcome to Wikipedia.  To answer your question, here is a verbatim quote from a NY Times piece by Elisabeth Bumiller, dated Aug. 6 of this year, entitled "Rove and Novak, a 20-Year Friendship Born in Texas":  Whatever a federal grand jury investigating the case decides, a small political subgroup is experiencing the odd sensation that this leak has sprung before. In 1992 in an incident well known in Texas, Mr. Rove was fired from the state campaign to re-elect the first President Bush on suspicions that Mr. Rove had leaked damaging information to Mr. Novak about Robert Mosbacher Jr., the campaign manager and the son of a former commerce secretary. Since then, Mr. Rove and Mr. Novak have denied that Mr. Rove was the source, even as Mr. Mosbacher, who no longer talks on the record about the incident, has never changed his original assertion that Mr. Rove was the culprit.
:So, it seems clear that Rove was indeed fired from the campaign.  Whether it was over a leak or not seems in some dispute.  The former campaign manager says yes, and apparently Rove and Novak have denied. · Katefan0(scribble) 15:03, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this actually mentioned in the article?  (I can't recall off the top of my head).  If so these nuances should be clarified. · Katefan0(scribble) 15:18, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rove fired in 1980? 

message: There used to be a section about where and when he was born, his schooling, the College Republicans, etc.  Seems like the politics has eclipsed the biography...kind of embarrassing.  Kaisershatner 15:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's there because I restored it (you can check the edit history if you like), but thanks for the feedback.  Kaisershatner 14:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a biographical article? 

message: "There used to be a section about where and when he was born, his schooling"  -- It is still there.
"Seems like the politics has eclipsed the biography...kind of embarrassing." -- He is a white house insider and career political operative since about, oh, highschool?  What do you think is going to show up in his biography?  Are you equally embarrassed that Dan Marino's page talks about football?Battaile Fauber
:It's there because I restored it (you can check the edit history if you like), but thanks for the feedback.  Kaisershatner 14:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Are you serious?

message: I moved these citations here.  They don't really have anything to do with Rove, they're about the SBVT ads, which have their own wikipedia article.  Also, they don't really substantiate any connection between Rove and SBVT - the third one, a Boston Globe (editorial) critical of Rove, mentions the allegation of his connection, but none of these links actually support the statement "He had professional ties."  There is probably a better reference for that claim (I'm not disputing the validity, just the sourcing).
   Also cut this: "Another ad from SBVT accused Kerry of lying to win his Vietnam combat medals."  Is that necessary in a Rove bio?  Kaisershatner 15:17, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll replace reference 4 - the NY times chart actually does show the alleged connection.  Kaisershatner 15:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  SBVT comments 

message: Somehow I doubt the veracity of the trivia section item that claims that 'Karl Rove was beaten up by a girl democrat.' While this is 'sourced' to Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, I find that using a game show (no matter how intellectual it may be) as a source is highly dubious at best. Best to remain within  the ol' NPOV, so I commented it out. JustinStroud 20:07, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it was from the part of the show where a contestant has to choose which is the true story from among several made-up stories. --206.79.158.100 22:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Trivia Item 

message: Why no discussion of Rove's connection to Jeff Gannon and the stories of the Republican gay mafia?  Rove apparently was having homosexual trysts  with Gannon in the White House, yet no mention is made of that here.
:'Apparently' doesn't mean fact. Show us a pair of assless chaps with a DNA stain on it and Bob's your uncle. -- RyanFreisling @ 15:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rove and Republican Gay Mafia Connection Jeff Gannon Ken Mehlmann et al 

message: Should there be a paragraph or section on the seizure of Kenneth Tomlinson's emails to Karl Rove and the investigation into the Corporation_for_Public_Broadcasting?  SargeAbernathy 18:31, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mmm-hmmm. So many allegations of impropriety, so little time... :) -- RyanFreisling @ 18:48, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CPB Scandal 

message: Though it sounds like little more than insider bluster and innuendo/rumor to me, I added a source to this section, an article written and published by the editor of Capitol Hill Blue, an obviously pro-Democratic web site. I personally do not interpret NPOV policy to mean that the POV of a source in and of itelf invalidates the information involved, but in practice, the use of such a source means that the burden of independent proof for the allegation should be simply that much higher. As such, I consider this '10000 enemies' item to be unsubstantiated and so is likely to be removed until some other source is found. And, unlike most modern reporting, another crucial requirement - one source cannot cite the other as proof :) 
:The article states:
::Spurred by paranoia and aided by the USA Patriot Act, the Bush Administration has compiled dossiers on more than 10,000 Americans it considers political enemies and uses those files to wage war on those who disagree with its policies.
::The “enemies list” dates back to Bush’s days as governor of Texas and can be accessed by senior administration officials in an instant for use in campaigns to discredit those who speak out against administration policies or acts of the President.
::Rove started the list while Bush served as governor of Texas, compiling information on various political enemies in the state and leaking damaging information on opponents to friends in the press. The list grew during Bush’s first run for President in 2000 but the names multiplied rapidly after the terrorist attacks of 2001 and passage of the USA Patriot Act. Using the powers under the act, Rove expanded the list to more than 10,000 names, utilizing the FBI’s “national security letters” to gather private and intimate details on American citizens. 
Thoughts? -- RyanFreisling @ 05:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for 'list of 10000 enemies' 

message: I was wondering how high up on the demonic chain of command is Karl Rove, does he serve the dark lord directly or is merely a relatively unknown underling?  Anyone have any biblical or hindu texts that might give us some insight as too how Karl's career is going?--M4bwav 23:50, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karl Rove's business ranking 

message: Rove's apparent psychopathic hatred of liberals might be explained by the story recounted in the article, wherein he is traumatized at age 9 by a vicious beating from a girl, resulting in possible latent PTSD symptoms, which would nicely explain much of his deviant adult personality and homosexual fetish for Jeff Gannon type prostitutes.  However, the story is unsourced and sounds like a forgery to me:
:In 1960, at the age of 9 years old, Rove decided to support Richard Nixon. According to Rove, "There was a little girl across the street who was Catholic and found out I was for Nixon, and she was avidly for Kennedy. She put me down on the pavement and whaled on me and gave me a bloody nose. I lost my first political battle."
:: I added the story (as part of a lot of other posting about Rove's early life).  The source is cited in a different part of the section where the story appears, but (at the risk of duplication) I've added it immediately after the story as well.
:: I find it helpful, before questioning something unusual, to do a google query.  In this case, using the text "There was a little girl across the street who was Catholic", the third result is to this Deseret News article.  Deseret News is a major Mormon-owned paper in Salt Lake City, and this article is my source.
:: I also don't think that speculation about PTSD is useful - I hope you'll keep it out of the main article, now that the source of the story has been identified.  John Broughton 21:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or at least no more effect on my life than George Bush and his administration and the Republican House and Senate do. No more than that. Gzuckier 19:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Childhood PTSD Reaction Manifesting in Adult Psychopathology? 

message: I am pretty sure Rove's middle name isn't Christian because he's Jewish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mossadian (talk • contribs) .
:No, he isn't. And yes, it is "Christian". JackO'Lantern 06:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to NNDB he is "Anglican/Episcopalian".  Why do you think he is not? --StuffOfInterest 00:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Mossadian, please sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes so we know who said what.  Thanks. --StuffOfInterest 00:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope you got it wrong, he is Karl Christian Rove, and I've never heard he is jewish, though I would admit that it is unusual since most neo-cons are jewish, though they have fundie christian counterparts--M4bwav 07:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He's not Jewish. A lot of antisemite types like to smear Bushites/neo-con types as Jews or 'Crypto-Jews', which is completely false. It's also false that 'most neo-cons are jewish', because a quick look at the  reveals that only about 35% of them are Jews, with the rest coming from diverse backgrounds [Catholics, evangelicals, even some Muslims]. If one were to conduct a poll of who supports Neo-con principles among the general public, you'd likely get fewer positive responses amongst Jews [percentage-wise] than amongst those other groups. --Baltech22 23:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I heard a guy on the radio, who wrote books about Karl Rove, that says he is an agnostic. I was very surprised when I heard this, since most neo-conservatives are usually Christian or Jewish. Rshu 20:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rove's Religion? 

message: There is only one mention of Dirty tricks in the trivia section, whereas in Rove's case it deserves an entire article let alone a single sentence.  e.g. How about Rove's involvement in duping Rather with the Rathergate memos?  I suspect regular sanitizing of the dirty tricks section in this article by some Rove lackey like Jeff Gannon.
:Sorry anonymous person, wikipedia is not a place to list all your outlandish conspiracy theories. --Viper Daimao 22:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dirty Tricks section needed 

message: Is this the guy that spins facts up so that W Bush looks good?
:You're thinking of Bill O'Reilly. This is all covered in the article though. Ashibaka tock 03:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bush's crap spinner 

message: It's the single ugliest thing I've ever seen. Do we really need sub-headings under "Early life", and could the political campaigns section just be ordered chronoligoically under the one heading? If someone is able to take up this labourous task, I thank you greatly in advance. Harro5 08:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TOC 

message: * http://www.newshounds.us/2006/05/13/karl_rove_indicted_on_perjury_lying_to_investigators.php
* http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_jason_le_060513_karl_rove_indicted_o.htm
* http://news.google.com/news?q="karl+rove+indicted"
-- Merry christmas 68.215.134.103 01:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't think too much of it - Leopold's article was out late on the night of the 11th, if I recall correctly. I imagine the poster picked it up on the left-wing blogs. Note that I'm still maintaining a bit of skepticism since it hasn't been picked up by the MSM yet - but it's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Way to spoil a good conspiracy theory ;) --csloat 08:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually that's not true, Leopold's article is dated Friday 12 May 2006 -- see  unless that change was done by leopold himself prior to publishing the article. 68.215.134.103 21:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No - Leopold's story was indeed circling the blogosphere the night of the 11th. As I'm sure you know, dating a story for the next publishing day is a common practice in journalism.. Leopold wrote two articles, I confused them. I agree with the poster above regarding the 2nd article, published May 12. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow. It hit Wikipedia too! that's fast! After more than 8 years surfing the net, I'm still amaze at how fast information spread on the internet. __earth (Talk)
The story is false, although truthout claim they had two independant witnesses saying it was true. 
--Archeus 11:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The story is probably false, but it hasn't gone past reasonable doubt yet, so it's not yet appropriate to categorically state that it's false. -- Jibal 17:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karl Rove indicted on perjury, lying to investigators 

message: I suggest removing when busted link is fixed
* link to alleged amicus curiae brief by news organizations in the Plame matter. Link given is http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/tbl_s10News/FileUpload44/10159/Amici%20Brief%20032305%20(Final).PDF
**I have this mirrored here, can we use a mirror? --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *better a mirror that works than a link that don't. I doubt anyone will sue ;-)  rewinn 00:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Busted Links Needing Fixing 

message: Howard Dean said it was "a sin" (?) to "reveal a CIA agent's name to the public, in a time of war" (paraphrasing from memory). Was this meant to refer to the reporters and editors who published Plame's name - or only to whoever gave the name to the reporters? --Uncle Ed 20:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dean statement on the leak 

message: It appears, according to Novak, that Rove at the least confirmed Plame's ID as a CIA agent. http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/11/cia.leak/index.html  which makes Rove an involved party. Classified information is still classified even if someone else has leaked it. The correct behavior when asked about classified information is to say "No comment". rewinn 16:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Novak's revelation

message: Cut from article:
:After Rove's appointment, the administration was criticized for attempting to shift blame away from the federal government for the failures by claiming that state and local officials had not declared a state of emergency at the time .
Who criticized the administration for blame-shifting? And why?
And why say "claiming that state and local officials had not declared a state of emergency"? Is there a dispute over whether they had?
I'd like to see this as:
*Senator Hyam P. Iztatyu (D, Minn.) criticized the Bush administration for attempting to shift blame onto state and local government over Katrina aid. Istatya said, "It doesn't matter what the governor said or when she said it. Bush should have given New Orleans the help it needed, posse comitatus be damned!"
Note that I made up this quote. We need to find a real spokesman for this widely-held criticism, which should be easy to google up. --Uncle Ed 16:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Katrina blame 

message: I am a George McGovern fan, but in the section regarding Rove's departure for college and work for the National Young Republicans on behalf of Nixon, it notes that he helped paint opponent George McGovern, "a WWII B-24 pilot and hero," as a left-wing peacenik. This is probably true; however, which it is a fact that McGovern was Nixon's opponent and a B-24 pilot, and while common agreement can probably be found that part of the campaign was to paint McGovern as a "left-wing peacenik" (I believe the campaign, and Nixon himself, repeatedly used that phrase), whether or not McGovern was a "hero" is not for us to say. I have thus removed it. Wally 05:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited 'Leaves College' section 

message: I take exception to the link stating that Rove's grandfather may have been a Nazi.  The link is NOT a credible source, the allegation is potentially libelous and therefore does not adhere to the biography of living persons policy.  Not only is it poorly sourced but it is contradicted by the fact that Wikipedia's list of Gauleiters mentions neither Karl Heinz Roeverer nor a Gauleiter of Oldenburg.  That is why I am deleting it.
:I would add that, in addition, the political associations, or even crimes, of grandparents are almost never notable.  rewinn 03:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rove's grandfather a Nazi? 

message: i rewrote the plame investigation section. most of it was merged from the plame affair page as that page is too long and in the process of being edited.  i will fix the references to this section at the end of the day when i have time, unless someone else would care to.  some of the links may be dead. thanks!Anthonymendoza 15:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i finished it. Anthonymendoza 20:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plame investigation 

message: Unless there are objections, I'd like to do a serious copyedit on this article. I found it tonight while doing dab repair and I can't believe what an unbelievable mess it is. I started the copyedit while in the same edit window but it needs more – much more. I promise I won't make the facts or the tenor any worse or better than it already is, except that it will hopefully be a useful encyclopedia article when I'm done. I'll watch the page for responses. BaseballBaby 01:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedit 

message: Saying "he used unorthodox tactics" sounds extremely POV to me, implying he cheated. To cite a noteworthy tactic or a credible source would be one thing, but unsupported bias is not necessary. Looking for citations of this claim, the first reliable source I found claims the opposite. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5481603 says "In high school, Rove was a skilled debater and was elected president of the Student Council." I will remove the reference to "unorthodox tactics." ~Kruck 03:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  High School Student Council 

message: If he wasn't actually drafted is that section actually relevant? Is there something I am missing?
The lack of personal integrity evidenced by evading service, and the hypocritical aspect of pushing for the war in Iraq with his evasion ( and apparently, his child, who is 21, and not in uniform also shares his moral cowardice )  74.70.206.55 00:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draft 

message: Does anyone know the  name/whereabouts of Rove's real father?
: Gzuckier 13:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biological Father 

message: References to Rove's religion as agnostic and the speculation about his homosexual father that cite 365gay.com should be removed.  365gay.com obviously has a political axe to grind here.  Rove's religion is listed as Episcopalian at http://marriage.about.com/od/politics/p/karlrove.htm
and speculation by homosexual activists that Karl Rove's mother killed herself because her husband was gay is pure conjecture and perhaps a bit of wishful thinking. Joel79 21:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is this even in the article? Is it noteworthy? Do we go into other folk's parents sexual orientation in other bios? I agree with the original note above. Anyways, --Tom 15:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion and homosexuality; Marital status 

message: I'm all for full disclosure.  I despise the man.   But I think that the wane of his influence following his hubris in 2006 is verifiable, encyclopedic, and can be written up in an NPOV way.   I've tried to do that, but I'm sure my bias creeps through.   If anyone feels I've fallen short, feel free to improve upon my work, but I ask that you not summarily delete the "2006 election and beyond" material without due discussion and consensus here.   At any rate, I pretty emphatically believe that some post-'06 election material is essential, since that election has done so much to change how Rove is perceived these days.   Cheers, PhilipR 04:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2006 aftermath 

message: Seems like the article has some editorializing, arguing.  For instance, the "but McGovern was a B-29 pilot".   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.130.94 (talk) 00:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment