Talk:José Antonio Aguirre (early Californian)

message: Whatever Don Antonio was, he was NOT an industrialist. Let's think of a different title for him. He was a merchant, a rancher, a Californio, a San Diegan. The title does need a disambiguation since there are already a "politician" and a "boxer" by the same name, but let's make it something that conveys who he actually was. I think I would favor a move to José Antonio Aguirre (San Diego). Anybody got any better ideas? --MelanieN (talk) 02:14, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The purpose of the disambiguator is so that someone looking for a given topic can distinguish it from the others listed on the dab page.  I agree industrialist does not accomplish this.  What about settler?  Wouldn't most people looking for him know he's a settler (and not a politician or boxer)? --Born2cycle (talk) 19:46, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Settler" is not very descriptive. It could mean a settler in Kentucky, or Australia, or anywhere. And he was not exactly a pioneer; the cities he lived in were already well established. I have the same problem with "land owner", that it could be anywhere. "Merchant" doesn't really describe him either, although it is what he is called in the lead. "Rancher" is a little closer, although he did not live on his ranchos or work them personally, as you would expect from the title "rancher". Are "Californio" or "San Diego" too far afield from naming norms to use? Or how about "(California)" since the other two namesakes are Spanish and Mexican respectively? --MelanieN (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Disambiguators are only supposed to be specific enough to distinguish one use from other uses of the same name.  "Settler" is no less specific than "politician" or "wrestler" (it could mean a politician/wrestler in Kentucky, or Australia, or anywhere.  Of the three, this is the only settler.But if settler is inaccurate, how about, early Californian?  --Born2cycle (talk) 22:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

text: There is title precedent for the use of landowner: James Irvine (landowner) so José Antonio Aguirre (landowner) would not be inappropriate.  A more accurate (bad word in title discussion) descriptor would be José Antonio Aguirre (California don) or better yet José Antonio Aguirre (Californio don) as that is what these kind of guys are referred to as. , ,  --Mike Cline (talk) 21:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't know if Mike was done with that comment or not. In any case, here's my take. "Settler" is no more or less descriptive than "politician" or "boxer" - they also give no idea where those people are from. But I agree that it's not the most accurate anyhow, as San Diego and Santa Barbara were fairly well established by the time he came around. I could go for "landowner", or even the boring but accurate "(1799–1860)". We do use dates to disambiguate fairly frequently in wiki-land, even when other people get word disambiguators (see Winston Churchill (disambiguation) as an example). Dohn joe (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, since we are talking about the Californios and their use of the title "Don" (this guy was called Don Antonio), I just looked at your signature and read it as "Don Joe"! --MelanieN (talk) 23:10, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad you did - it's sort of an intentional pun. A reversal of John Doe as a play on the anonymity most people want on WP, and also granting myself the honorific. I was pleased with it, and glad you noticed! Dohn joe (talk) 17:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I had caught the "John Doe" reference, of course, but I didn't catch the double meaning "Don" until now. Congrats, great username. --MelanieN (talk) 18:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

text:  Don is clearly an honorific translating to "gift" to reflect the gifts of Spanish and Mexican landgrants in California to specific individuals. --Mike Cline (talk) 23:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, it is. Although modern writers sometimes refer to the "California dons", it was actually an honorific, not a noun, much less a job title. Nowadays the word "don" is also used to mean a crime lord, so I would not favor using "don" here. --MelanieN (talk) 00:06, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Done! Thanks for your input, everyone. --MelanieN (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Need a different title

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message: Contrary to WP policy, there was no discussion on this talk page prior to the recent page move/retitling. Even worse, the new title is not accurate. As explained on the Californio page, Aguirre was not a Californio--he was born in Spain. His children were Californios. WCCasey (talk) 03:35, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There was consensus on this page in 2012 (see above) to name this page "José Antonio Aguirre (early Californian)". Unless a new consensus is reached by October 1 in favor of the recent non-consensus page move/title, I will move the page back to the previous approved title. WCCasey (talk) 03:21, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Move back to consensus title completed today. WCCasey (talk) 02:42, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  No consensus on page move