Talk:Empowerment (Vajrayana)

message: "The Gelug school requires the practitioner to take a pratimoksha (individual liberation) vow before or during the ceremony." - this implies something that is not actually the case.
Berzin writes:"In the Gelug tradition, practitioners who wish to receive an empowerment or subsequent permission need beforehand to take and keep purely some level of lay or monastic pratimoksha (individual liberation) vow. If they have not done so, they need to take some level of lay pratimoksha vow during the ceremony. The non-Gelug traditions require at least taking and keeping purely refuge vows, which may also be taken for the first time during the ceremony." 
I agree that Berzin's writing appears to make a distinction Gelug and non-Gelug - based on a differentiation between  'lay pratimoksha' and 'refuge vows',  - but there are none, as we can find elsewhere in his website:
"Tibet is to uphold one of the levels of pratimoksha vow – either the five vowed restraints for a lay person or the vowed restraints appropriate to our particular class of monastic ordination as a full or novice monk or nun."  (http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/e-books/published_books/gelug_kagyu_mahamudra/pt4/mm_14.html?query=pratimoksha)
I have no idea why Berzin attempts to distinguish the Gelug initiation based on a spurious differentiation between 'lay pratimoksha' and 'refuge' - but I certainly feel that quoting him on this is particularly unsound.
*Secondly, Berzin correctly asserts on the same page that the Gelug ( but also the Sakya and Kargyu, and to a degree the Nyingma also) entails taking the bodhisattva vows - but this was left off - so the distinction between Geluk and Sakya is not made here.
(20040302 (talk) 07:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gelug school requires the practitioner to take pratimoksha - pulled. 

message: According to June Campbell there is an article by Chögyam Trungpa entitled Empowerment, printed in Vajradhatu, 1976. Does anybody know how to get the article?
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.88.8 (talk) 12:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In vajradhatu sun? that started in 1978 according to this collection of issues:  which is on sale it turns out. i don't have a copy but was thinking of ordering it while it is on sale - probably is out of print. maybe google has scanned it or the editions? probably not - Owlmonkey (talk) 20:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: hmmm, maybe there was a publication that pre-dates the sun though. seems like there would have been. there was something called "garuda" too, not sure how they all relate. if you emailed shambhala shop they could probably tell you what if anything predates 1978. i don't know. - Owlmonkey (talk) 20:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article by Chögyam Trungpa 

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