Talk:Plaid Cymru

message: User  IP 131.251.134.131 has added Regionalism as an ideology for PC.  I don't think the party considers Wales a region, so I think it's incorrect.  The same user changed the Politics of Wales article so that 'Constituent countries of the UK' was changed to 'regions of the UK'.  I think it's a blatant POV and reverted changes in the other article, but haven't done so here in case others had different views.--Rhyswynne 10:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw that too, and was wondering whether to change it back (I don't know enough about Welsh politics to comment!)  I've tagged the IP with  for future reference: it's a Cardiff University machine, according to WHOIS ("University of Wales College of Cardiff").  BencherliteTalk 10:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I've undone the changes, as there's no way of asking the unregistered user for reasoning behind the changes and he/she hasn't left any here either.--Rhyswynne 12:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree that it's not a fair description of PC's ideology (though they did have the briefest of flirtations with describing Wales as a "National Region" in the European context - this oxymoron was soon dropped). Neither should Wales be described as other than as a nation in the Wales page. Normalmouth 18:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the same edits were coming from the same IP on three occasions, I've left a message about this discussion on the IP's talk page in the hope that it is a relatively static IP and that editor might see it.  BencherliteTalk 20:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Regionalism' as an ideology?

message: I've just started an article for J. Gwyn Griffiths, as far as I can tell, an important member of the Plaid Cymru movement in the 1950s, which I would like to categorise, but can't seem to find a slot. Is there a category for those who fought for the party but did not become a politician? Thanks, FruitMonkey (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you fight for a political party you are a politician. 213.121.151.174 (talk) 17:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category for Plaid Cymru members that are not politicians 

message: I have tried corrected the info box to show that Dafydd Iwan is the Chairman/ President, however it shows on the edit page, but not on the article page. Can anyone with a little more expertise at editing info boxs sort it out please? regads Ijanderson (talk) 08:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dafydd Iwan in the info box

message: I know Plaid Cymru uses the slogan The Party of Wales, but wouldn't a more accurate English translation be Welsh party, or something like that? YeshuaDavid • Talk • 22:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "(Adjective) (Object)" and "(Object) of (Noun form of adjective)" are fairly interchangeable forms for most translations as well as in English and translation is not an exact process, especially on such subtleties. If there is a difference what is the direct translation of "Party of Wales" in Welsh? Timrollpickering (talk) 23:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

text: As I understand it it's not a slogan, their official name is "Plaid Cymru — The Party of Wales" --Killing Vector (talk) 09:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: IIRC, I believe historically the name always was Plaid Cymru, but there was some Parliament act or change which stated that there had to be an English translation in the name too, and IIRC they simply added 'Party of Wales' so that they were in compliance with the English name in elections. ♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 14:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My recollection is that it was actually a branding decision in the late 1990s designed to make Plaid more attractive to non-Welsh speaking voters in south Wales. This was around the time of the party registration act, but it was certainly billed as being for other purposes. Timrollpickering (talk) 15:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Plaid Cymru actually means (The) Party of Wales anyway. "Welsh party" would be "Plaid Cymreig". -- Arwel Parry (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  English translation 

message: I've removed the 'drive-by' neutrality tag which says “please see the discussion on the talk page”. As there has been no discussion it is unclear as to what the dispute involves. I have also removed the word nationalist from the first line of the intro, on the basis of WP:BRD. The day before a general election is hardly the time to add WP:POV edits and then complain about neutrality. Daicaregos (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Too right! Deb (talk) 16:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Drive-by' tagging 

message: Discuss the issues here please people, don't edit war on the main page. And please remember, on Wiki its the quality of the points you make, not the numbers involved that decide the outcome. Thank you.  - Galloglass 09:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Discuss the issues, is it? What are the issues? How can we address any concerns relating to the POV tag if the editor who placed it there refuses to engage? Please self-revert. Daicaregos (talk) 09:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If no-one notes the nature of the POV issues here I will remove it. Daicaregos (talk) 09:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

text: The issue appears to be whether or not Plaid is a Nationalist party or not Daicaregos. It would be useful if the involved parties could address this point here, rather than conducting edits wars on the main page. From my position (which is I don't have a view either way on this issue) none of the editors here so far has even tried to engage the other parties involved to find out the reasons for their views. That needs to change.   - Galloglass 09:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the Tag, you really need to ask the person who placed the tag there why they did so before removing it, without knowing those reasons. Thats of course only common courtesy, but its always a good idea to be polite to editors with whom you appear to be in dispute.  - Galloglass 09:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is only one editor trying to push the 'N' word, Galloglass, and s/he has been involved in multiple edit wars elsewhere, as noted on his/her talk page, ANI and the 3RR noticeboard yesterday. I requested that the editor engage on the talk page, but the only response was bad faith edit summaries. What do you suggest if the editor refuses to engage, as in this case? Should the tag stay there in perpetuity? It is not necessary to define Plaid Cymru as a nationalist party. The Conservative party is not defined as a unionist political party, despite their full name being the Conservative and Unionist Party. That is because they have other policies too and it would be giving undue weight to the fact that they are a unionist party, which would lessen its NPOV. The same is true of Plaid Cymru. The following sentence says “It advocates the establishment of an independent Welsh statewithin the European Union.” Therefore noting them as a nationalist party is redundant anyway. Daicaregos (talk) 09:53, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm not disputing that Plaid Cymru have a nationalist policy. However, the point is that there is no reason to say they are a nationalist political party and then say that they advocate an Independent Welsh state etc in the following sentence. And their ideology is noted as Welsh nationalism in the infobox. Daicaregos (talk) 11:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just about independence though it's also about "cultural" and language politics. It's nationalism. If you don't like the word, maybe you shouldn't go around blindly following identity politics instead of Orwellian hiding mentions fo the word. --Kittins floating in the sky yay (talk) 11:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to let you all know I've stuck 24-hour protection on the article, for obvious reasons. Deb (talk) 12:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good move. Daicaregos (talk) 12:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: i can't see any objection to the word, but its unnecessary when immediately afterwards the Party's intent for independence is made clear.   Its certainly not an NPOV issue anyway, its a style one.  Also placing a tag and not explaining why on the talk page is not acceptable - under those circumstances anyone is in their rights to delete it--Snowded TALK  12:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

text: And call the Lib Dems British unionist then if it makes you happy... --Fishshaw (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The BBC refers to Plaid Cymru and SNP as the Welsh nationalists and Scottish nationalists respectively. Welshleprechaun 22:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Personally I think that nationalist is accurate and non-perjorative, like any political creed or ideology it has negative and positive examples in history.  However there have been debates on the article on Nationalism as some editors want to paint it in a negative light.   Given the ambiguity I think the balance of the argument comes down in favour of the current wording which makes the nationalist policy clear.  --Snowded TALK  18:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationalist party? 

message: I assume the bit about drugs and free love is vandalism.... even if not it has typos. Can someone with a bit of knowledge sort it out? Epeeist smudge (talk) 13:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited it out for now as it isn't cited and thus should not be there/is vandalism, and rephrased the segment, but I am no expert in the field, thus if anyone else has a better version of the text to use in the article please post it here. --Taelus (talk) 14:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 1970s

message: Daniel Pickford-Gordon here. Use Encyclopedia Britannica etcetera. Has popularity been decreasing? At what rate? It has a number of MPs, and demands more devolution type things, so it needs to be discussed. I have an amount of information, on the Topix United Kingdom Forum, i've made a number of posts: List Of Posts http://www.topix.net/forum/world/united-kingdom/T367RKHF7P0991G1C  62.249.253.113 (talk) 09:53, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, this isn't a place for discussion of the party, only for discussion of the article.  Blogs and forums are not generally considered reliable sources. Deb (talk) 18:18, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Needed 

message: Changes to the Ieuan Wyn Jones' position in the Assembly are a bit previous. According to the BBC, he “... is to stand down from his Ynys Mon seat.” He has not done so yet. According to Betsan Powys “He'll start his new job in July but won't stand down as an Assembly member until his successor is elected.” The recent changes have been reverted. Daicaregos (talk) 15:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: When I made the edit, the BBC article read "...with immediate effect" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22990696 obviously there seems to be some contradiction between the BBC article and what Betsan has heard. However the National Assembly webiste no longer lists Ieuan Wyn Jones as a member http://www.senedd.assemblywales.org/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=PARTY&VW=LIST&PIC=0 and http://www.assemblywales.org/memhome/member-search-results.htm?constituency=40 . So I think he has stood down and maybe Betsan's information is out of date?  --Welshsocialist (talk) 21:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The situation does seem a little confused. However, if the National Assembly no longer consider him a member, then I guess that's that. I'll reinstate the changes now. If anyone finds more recent evidence showing he remains an AM, please share it here. Daicaregos (talk) 15:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ieuan Wyn Jones 

message: The article currently describes Plaid as a "centre-left" party.  I am wondering what the metric for "centre" is in this context.  I think the truth of the matter is that there are both "centre-left" and more stridently "left" factions within the party.  If anything it would seem that the "left" faction is ascendant: Leanne Wood, the party leader, has participated in "Communist University" events, and recent Plaid adverts have described their desire to build a "co-operative Wales," i.e. shifting ownership of the means of production within the country.  Thoughts on how this can be better reflected in the article?  aliceinlampyland (talk) 17:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Centre-left" vs "left-wing" 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Plaid Cymru. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091112091335/http://www.south-wales.police.uk:80/fe/master.asp?n1=8&n2=253&n3=504&n4=846 to http://www.south-wales.police.uk/fe/master.asp?n1=8&n2=253&n3=504&n4=846
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 10:55, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: As the party colour was changed to yellow should the meta/color be updated? I'd do it but I don't know how and I suspect it probably shouldn't be changed without some discussion first. --Boreas74 You'll catch more flies with honey 16:19, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find any mention of the party declaring that its primary colour had changed. I know BBC changed it for Election 2016 and I expect they'll keep it that way for Election 2017 but I don't see the party itself mentioning that the colour had changed. Green is still heavily used in party branding. --Cake8325 17:56, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plaid Cymru/meta/color 

message: Would someone who understands IPA syntax please look at the pronunciation given in the Lead and check against the source (OED). My attempts to amend this were not an unqualified success. The OED gives Pronunciation:  Brit. /ˌplʌɪd ˈkʌmri/ , U.S. /ˌplaɪd ˈkəmri/ , but the article seems to have confused the two, giving a Welsh pronunciation as plaɪd ˈkəmri and an English pronunciation as plʌɪd ˈkʌmri. In my view, we don't need to provide a US pronounciation here. Thanks. Daicaregos (talk) 07:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The lede has clearly been changed since Dai wrote the above as it now gives "plaɪd ˈkəmri" for the Welsh pronunciation and "plaɪd ˈkʌmri" for an English pronunciation. Is the second one really valid? In my experience most Welsh people speaking English don't differentiate between the "ə" of "ago", "focus", and the "ʌ" of "bud", "gun". (I've got the examples from Help:IPA for English.) If I've understood "ʌ" correctly it's more of a southern English thing, and therefore, I should think, a mispronunciation of a word in the Welsh language. On Newsnight and else I've often heard "ˈkʊmri" (i.e. the vowel of "foot", "good"), which is certainly a mispronunciation. Ham II (talk) 18:23, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Gwynfor Evans was a councillor in 1949. Was he the first Plaid councillor?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.81.58.141 (talk) 11:48, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Council representation 

message: :The UK is leaving the EU, due to the UK's EU referendum. Plaid accepts this and has given no indication it rejects the referendum result or wishes to keep Wales in the EU post referendum.
Vote Plaid Cymru for successful Brexit, says Leanne Wood. Published 14 May 2017. Retrieved 21 May 2017.
Helper201 (talk) 21:22, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Their position seems to be "Well I guess Brexit is happening so we might as well get on with it and deal with the damage" not that they are suddenly anti-euApollo The Logician (talk) 11:12, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is they aren't opposing it, nor are they saying if an independent Wales is achieved it should re-join the EU. Whereas the article currently specifically states that the party wants an independent Wales to be a member of the EU, through use of old, outdated sources, before the EU referendum was even announced, let alone concluded. Helper201 (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no evidence to suggest that they are suddenly anti-eu membership.Apollo The Logician (talk) 20:01, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither is there any evidence that post Brexit they wish to stay in the EU or reverse the referendum decision. I'm not trying to say they are Eurosceptic, just that the claim of them wanting an independent Wales to be in the EU has no proof post EU referendum. Neither is there any evidence of them giving any pro-EU sentiment post referendum. Therefore these claims should be removed as they don't represent the party's current stance. I'm not advocating they be replaced with anything. Helper201 (talk) 23:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Only because they believe "the people have spoken" and the referendum result was clear.09:14, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The reasoning doesn't matter, the points I made still clearly stand and I see no way in which you have disproved them. Helper201 (talk) 18:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

text: The problem is that Plaid have a clearly stated policy, that they would wish an independent Wales to be part of the EU. You have failed to produce a citation to show that this policy has changed, instead you infer that Plaids policy has changed. But inference, even a reasonable one, is not enough. It would be entirely possible for Plaid to have one policy if Wales independent, and another if Wales in the UK. So if you can find a statement by Plaid that the policy has changed, well then fair enoughDaithidebarra (talk) 22:30, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

text: The source provided above does not state that Plaid have stated they aren't pro-EU. They unlike some are just honest enough to accept that that is will of the majority of people in the UK and are willing to work to get the best Brexit for Wales. That doesn't mean they aren't pro-EU. So the removal is not merited without an actual statement from Plaid stating such. Mabuska (talk) 00:08, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro-EU should now be removed 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:53, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: I think we should probably remove the ideology of democratic socialism from the infobox unless we can get at least one fairly recent reliable source to support it. The citations given for this claim are quite old (one from 2000, and two from 2006). 14 years is a long time in politics and the party has gone through new leaders since then. I haven't seen anything to which points to the party being currently democratic socialist. I was wondering what other editors’ thoughts on the matter are. Please leave your thoughts below. Helper201 (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that "democratic socialism" is anywhere appropriate as a description for the party's ideology. The Infobox should be limited to just three ideologies for this party, Welsh nationalism, regionalism and social democracy (in that order).--Autospark (talk) 14:45, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with limiting it to three ideologies (unless valid reasons can be presented on a case by case basis for why other certain ideologies as well as democratic socialism should be removed) as I think it’s clear and easy to understand and read. Helper201 (talk) 15:43, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

text: Comment. I admit I'm not a member of Plaid Cymru, so not an expert, but certainly the word "socialism" needs to be in there somewhere, since it's actually mentioned in the constitution. Deb (talk) 09:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

text: *  - Leanne Wood certainly thought it was a democratic socialist party,  and Price has described himself as being a socialist before he was a nationalist,  although it is interesting that the Independence Commission appears not to actually mention socialism. KJP1 (talk) 09:57, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

text: The party's constitution says "decentralist socialism", whatever that is. If we go on what a party says about itself, then it should be "decentralist socialism" rather than "democratic socialism". Though my understanding of things was that they got rid of Leanne Woods as leader, because her interest in wider social issues was distracting from the nationalist argument. Plaid are surely a nationalist party first and foremost. Sionk (talk) 16:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "decentralist socialism" is just a simple combination of decentralisation and socialism. The thing is as far as I'm aware there is no Wikipedia page for this as a specific concept in of itself. I think democratic socialism is preferable over decentralist socialism if we are to use one, as democratic socialism is a widely recognised concept. More importantly it is claimed the party follows this by third-party sources, which are preferable over a first-party source of how the party self-describes. I agree that they are nationalist first and foremost. Helper201 (talk) 15:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether or not there are too many ideologies is subjective. We can discuss it if you want but I see no disadvantage to the amount that is currently included, it’s perfectly legible and understandable. Reducing down the number would be too reliant on the opinion of editors over what the party values more than others. In other words, our selective opinions should not influence what we show or do not show in the infobox as long as claims are supported by reliable sources. To limit the amount of information we give, especially in a simple and quick and easy to understand list format would not be beneficial to the reader. The ideology claims are supported by reliable sources in the infobox, so we can copy these over to the main text and expand upon them there. Helper201 (talk) 18:41, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE tells us . Listing the party's ideologies as Welsh nationalism, Welsh independence, civic nationalism and regionalism is not good writing, imagine it in prose! I'll spend some time in Google Scholar and get back with an evidenced proposal for how to cover the party's ideology in the article, and how to summarise it for the lead and infobox. Ralbegen (talk) 20:00, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Welsh nationalism and Welsh independence are core ideologies of the party and should be kept. Civic nationalism describes the type of nationalism they espouse, so I suppose that could be dropped from the infobox as its complementary. As for regionalism, this is true in a UK wide context/perspective as Wales can be viewed as a region of the UK. Perhaps this could be dropped from the infobox and just mentioned in the main text as well, although it was kept in the infobox on the Scottish National Party page. Helper201 (talk) 13:53, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: A “socialist” party which completely ignores traditionally non-Welsh speaking minorities i.e Chinese people in Wales? Plaid only give a toss about the “White” Welsh. At the least they’d insist people of Chinese descent sideline their ancestral culture and language for the sake of conformity. There was literally an official report about how the Welsh language and in turn national identity is teeming with white supremacism!2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:5948:DC5B:70B7:C3A4 (talk) 22:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is it? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:28, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible removal of the ideology of democratic socialism

message: @Number 57, @Helper201, @Autospark, @Checco, @Vacant0, @Braganza, @Yakme: I propose that the number of ideologies be reduced in the infobox. I propose only the following remain: Welsh independence, Social democracy, and Democratic socialism. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 11:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "Welsh nationalism" should also remain, that is a more relevant ideology than Social democracy and Democratic socialism IMO. DankJae 12:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

text: maybe Welsh republicanism, Social democracy & Left-wing nationalism? Braganza (talk) 12:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

text: pinging those who particpated in the above discussion also on ideology, unsure why they were left out. DankJae 13:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Can see the sense in trimming - Conservative Party currently has 3, Labour 2, but I wouldn’t drop Welsh nationalism which is ideologically central. Does it not also encompass Welsh independence, Welsh republicanism and Regionalism? For the others, I’d also chose Democratic socialism, which arguably covers Social democracy and Left-wing populism, and, if one wanted a third, Environmentalism. I’d agree these are choices, and sound arguments could be made for others, but I certainly wouldn’t drop Welsh nationalism. KJP1 (talk) 16:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I’d go with Welsh nationalism and social democracy. Regionalism if there has to be a third. (Again, Welsh nationalism, not Welsh independence, which is a policy goal, not an ideology.) Democratic socialism no, as they aren’t really (unless one considers that term a synonym for social democracy).— Autospark (talk) 17:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

text: We should rename the Aims section to Ideology or Positions Braganza (talk) 20:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reducing Ideologies