Talk:Old Testament messianic prophecies quoted in the New Testament

message: Is the title a little POV in that it apparently takes sides on whether these prophecies were about Jesus. Shouldn't a more neutral title be Claimed Messianic prophecies of Jesus or Messianic prophecies (Christian) or something along those lines?--Andrew c 23:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, although I can't think of anything that isn't absurdly long. AdamBiswanger1 00:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like Messianic prophecies (Christian).  How do you change the name of an article? Ramsquire 17:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I moved it to 'Messianic prophecy in Christianity'. Bob A 17:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any reason why it's no longer Messianic prophecy in Christianity?  The current title is extremely POV.RWgirl 21:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: I don't think a merge would be appropriate. A concise summary of this article ought to appear on the main article but this artcile is allready to big to fit into another IMO. Peace. --Home Computer 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: The title "Messianic prophecy in Christianity" where Jewish texts are used as if they were all about Jesus is just as absurd as an article called "Jesus as a prophet only in Islam" instead of the current title Islamic view of Jesus which is NPOV. Obviously, this article would be titled "Christian view of Hebrew Scripture" if Wikipedia were truly NPOV. But I don't expect that to ever occur because the predominant view online is that Christians know more about Hebrew scripture than Jews do and google rules Wikipedia instead of the reality of plain words in their original context. 72.74.110.248 18:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: An article of missionary rants directed at Jewish scripture with the goal of conversion of Jews

message: This article seems to be overly focused on examples of Messianic prophecy in Christianity to the exclusion of analysis of the topic itself (which seems to be relegated to the end of the article).  I propose we split this article into two: one with a list of the "prophecies" and one that focuses on the role Messianic prophecy plays in Christianity and the various viewpoints on the accuracy of the Christian view of Messianic prophecy.  Any thoughts, support, or opposition? johnpseudo 20:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with what you're saying and I think we should implement that plan-however I think we may have trouble with the uncertainty as to what a legitimate "prophecy" is, and the list might be a breeding ground for OR and POV.  We just need to be careful. AdamBiswanger1 21:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we might have a problem finding any kind of "authoritative" source on what "Christians" claim to be a Messianic prophecy, but I suppose it's best to be as inclusive as possible and denote fringe opinions as being fringe. There are plenty of sources for Christian claims of Messianic prophecy, though- even just on the Internet. johnpseudo 21:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmm... I just read the deletion nomination more thoroughly and am having second thoughts.  Perhaps the non-list content of this article can be fleshed out a bit more before splitting. johnpseudo 23:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to split into two articles: A list of "prophecies" and an article about the prophecies

message: While the article with just the "Claimed Prophecies" was definitely POV, it is still POV with the addition of the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies. Just because an article has two unchallenged rants on different sides of the issue does not make an article NPOV. All of the non-fulfilled prophecies can be explained to be explained to have been fulfilled as can all of the fulfilled be explain not to have been fulfilled. The "Christian" prophecies should have Jewish rebuttals under them and the "Jewish" ones should have Christians rebuttals. Currently it looks like the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies should be on the Rejection of Jesus or Criticism of Jesus page or even have there own page as long as it is POV with Christian rebuttals should have Jewish rebuttals. ChrisLamb 19:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not even the New Testament claims that Jesus endorsed most (or any?) of these "prophecies", so this neither fits as Criticism of Jesus or Rejection of Jesus. Psysoph 06:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of Prophecies not fulfilled 

message: I've checked the recently added external link for "All about Jesus - Bible studies" and it doesn't seem to include studies that are specifically relevant to the article. Have the others been checked? - Fayenatic london (talk) 08:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: While this article does have a lot of flaws it just helped me a lot with a paper I had to write. Articles like these (no matter how controversial) are good! Perhaps to keep wikipedia controversial-free there could be a separate page explaining "the other side". But whatever you say these things are truly in the Christian's bible and Christians DO believe it. As long as this article contains facts about someone's beliefs it should be kept up for the greater knowledge of all.Meheren (talk) 02:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't Delete!!! 

message: Are you kidding me? Why was this ever moved to include "claimed" in the title? When it was title "Messianic Prophecy in Christianity" that already demonstrates the "claimed" nature since the whole world is not Christian. Furthermore, why is there a neutrality question? Are we making mountains out of mole hills or what here? This should be moved back to the former title and the neutrality dispute deleted. It goes without saying that something titled, "...in Christianity" is already a claim by those that follow such. Ugh, I guess I'm making it a mountain too, but we are far too PC today, walking on eggshells just because there are differences in beliefs and opinions. Get over it! T geier (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I started Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Claimed Messianic prophecies of Jesus to ensure that the article was kept, as another editor kept PRODding it. The discussion may or may not answer your question... As a Christian, I don't mind the title. The objective is to achieve an objective article, fully referenced, setting out both Christian and Jewish POV on the most relevant scriptures. It still needs work, I know... - Fayenatic (talk) 17:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

text: - the Wikipedia articles are entitled Old Testament and New Testament - the Christian Old Testament is not identical to the Hebrew Bible - both Christian Bible and Christian scripture redirect to the main article Bible - the Christian Bible contains both the Old and New Testaments - the article is about prophecies in the Christian Old Testament, not in the Hebrew Bible - Epinoia (talk) 19:11, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claimed? Neutrality? 

message: I've included this passage but with a note that Jews and Protestants don't consider it Scripture, but most Christians do and it was written by a Jewish author, and thus to exclude it is to give the page a Protestant bias when it is far more explicit than most of the other examples. Maybe not got it completely NPOV but it's use by Matthew is well documented. 82.36.120.66 (talk) 10:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wisdom of Solomon

message: Before any more work is done reflecting a Jewish approach to the article, references to the scriptural citations need to be used. For example, are the references made to the KJV?  If so, its outdated, the discussion should reach some concensus as to which Christian? translation they are going to use, and to please cite it clearly.
The Jewish position is a natural adoption of the actual Hebrew text as the ultimate source, together with the way classical commentators have understood these verses.Dannyza1981 (talk) 22:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bible References

message: Honestly, though, I think the article is more a wikisource article, than a wikipedia article.  Think about it.  Would you expect to find this article in a regular DVD, or in an information portal? I think this is a good way of determining whether these articles are necessary.  The Wikipedia forum is not a place for Christian-Jewish Missionary dialog.  It need not even present every single prophecy.  This is my take - this article needs to be put in a wikisource or portal, rather than an article on an encyclopedia. Dannyza1981 (talk) 22:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Call for placing this article in wikisource

message: I have my doubts about this article. Christian contributors to this article should be very aware of the fact that what they read is with a NT Bias.  And hence the neutrality of the article is heavily Questionable.  For example: consider prophecies for Muhammed found in the NT.  With the Quran as a starting point, you can probably find just as much information and hints to Muhammed in the NT, as you can Jesus in the Christian OT, by using the NT, and mistranslating?! passages.  I'm questioning here the bias of the writers here.  Before you think about providing a source here, what are you trying to convey?  That Christians read the bible in this way?  The Article should really be on Christian Messianism and how it views Biblical Prophecy.
Dannyza1981 (talk) 22:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the last sentence. I'm not so sure about the rest. Peter Deer (talk) 11:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the Christian Bible 

message: This subsection doesn't really make much sense currently. Can it be rewritten? --Dweller (talk) 09:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "In Galilee The Light Has Shined" 

message: This article is way too long, many sections have no citations and are largely original research, and has the same material presented, more or less, three times over - texts that have been cited as messianic; examples of messianic prophecy; table of messianic prophecies. I suggest reducing it dramatically and trying to present it in a more balanced and coherent way. First thing to go, I suggest, is the table at the end which appears to be just one person's original research. --Rbreen (talk) 20:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have gone ahead and removed this as it seems to be mainly a copyvio of this document.
The table is a more complete and condensed version of the content than is found in the text.  The table is also sourced and not original. The pdf at cai.org comes from the Thompson Chain Reference Bible which was one of the sources but tables like this are found in several bible dictionaries and handbooks or could be derived independently.  This article has had redundancies and quality issues.  This article also needs distinctions made between fulfilled and unfulfilled prophecies; between prophecies of a suffering Christ (fulfilled) and prophecies of a glorified Christ (largely unfulfilled).  There are exist public teachings of short term and long term fulfillments where the prophecy is believed to be partially fulfilled with a greater fulfillment still to come. The analogy sometimes given is that of seeing a near mountain with a more distant mountain right behind it and seeing both at the same time. 
Itohacs 02:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

text: The table is the least of many problems with this article. I'm not a fan of littering pages with *unreferenced section* tags, but this article is ridiculous. There are entire sections that rely entirely on WP:OR. I'm sure this could all be referenced, but as it isn't much of it deserves either tags or the axe. I'm going to tag it where appropriate and give whoever wishes a chance to reference it. In it's current state it's entirely unacceptable. DisarrayGeneral 20:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimming this article 

message: There is a popular view among certain Christians that the modern Jewish concept of Messiah actually corresponds to what the New Testament calls the Antichrist. For instance, some have interpreted passages of the Apocalypse in a way that suggests that Jews are awaiting a purely material reign of a false Christ that will serve their own interests. The fact that contemporary Jews want to rebuild the ancient temple of Jerusalem is interpreted as a sign of doom to come. ADM (talk) 06:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Antichrist conspiracies

message: I think this article is still encyclopedic and necessary for Wikipedia. Nashhinton (talk) 09:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't delete!

message: I would like to suggest an addition which would be appropriate for the "External links-- Jewish analysis" section, but may not be best for me to add myself. http://www.teshuvashaminim.com  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teshuvas HaMinim (talk • contribs) 03:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for posting here rather than adding it yourself. It seems to be a thoughtfully compiled resource, but written in the first person without disclosing the author, and still under construction. WP:EL is the relevant policy page here. - Fayenatic (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link suggestion 

message: It is no secret in the discussion that this page suffers from many problems but one pervasive issue which does not seem to be brought up is the frequency with which a position is presented as "Christian" when it is  not at all uncommon for even evangelical/fundamentalist Christians to take a different or more nuanced view of many passages under discussion. In other words, often times a position which is ascribed to "Jewish" or "secular" scholars are held largely or entirely by evangelical scholars when they attempt to explain the plain meaning of the passage in question. Taking this into account would go a long way in evening out the pov issues in my opinion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teshuvas HaMinim (talk • contribs) 05:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you mis-type that? I can't see any objection to adding "some" before "Christians" where applicable. But if you think evangelical Christian views are misleadingly presented as Jewish or secular, please tag them for sources (or just change anything that has patently been ascribed incorrectly). - Fayenatic (talk) 11:52, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: By presenting a view as Jewish or secular when it is shared by many evangelical scholars gives the false impression that the disagreement falls along ideological lines. It can likewise inflate the importance of some arguments which are common in popular outreach literature but not as much so in internal exegesis.--Teshuvas HaMinim (talk) 16:02, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I understand your point now. By all means set the record straight (with citations of course). - Fayenatic (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Christians Believe" 

message: (I have remove the following section from the article, as it was marked as unreferenced, and much of the information seems repetitive or irrelevant. I have cached it here in case any of it proves useful to be reintegrated into the article in the future.)
===Claimed examples of prophecy===
As examples, passages are listed below which many Christians consider to be messianic prophecies that refer to Jesus, who they believe is the Messiah. Moshiach Online has a set of articles on Jewish interpretations regarding the Messiah.
====Ancestors of Messiah====
* Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
* Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.
* Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
* Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it—one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.
====Nature of the Messiah====
* Book of Proverbs 30:4 (NKJV)
: Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
: Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
: Who has bound the waters in a garment?
: Who has established all the ends of the earth?
: What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?
====Personality of the Messiah====
* Isaiah 11:2-5 (2) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him — the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD — (3) and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; (4) but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. (5) Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
* Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it—one from the house of David—one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.
====Activities of the Messiah====
*  Isaiah 11:4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
====Miracles of Messiah====
* Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
* Isaiah 35:5-6a (5) Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. (6a) Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
====How the Messiah will come (style)====
* Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says—the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
====Results of the Messiah's coming (long-term)====
* Isaiah 61:1-2 (1) The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, (2) to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
* Isaiah 49:6 he (the Lord) says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
* Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations (Gentiles)."
Editor2020 (talk) 03:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section removed from article 

message: As examples, passages are listed below which many Christians consider to be messianic prophecies that refer to Jesus, who they believe is the Messiah. Moshiach Online has a set of articles on Jewish interpretations regarding the Messiah.
====Ancestors of Messiah====
* Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
* Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.
* Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
* Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it—one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.
====Nature of the Messiah====
* Book of Proverbs 30:4 (NKJV)
: Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
: Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
: Who has bound the waters in a garment?
: Who has established all the ends of the earth?
: What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?
====Personality of the Messiah====
* Isaiah 11:2-5 (2) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him — the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD — (3) and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; (4) but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. (5) Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
* Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it—one from the house of David—one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.
====Activities of the Messiah====
*  Isaiah 11:4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
====Miracles of Messiah====
* Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
* Isaiah 35:5-6a (5) Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. (6a) Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
====How the Messiah will come (style)====
* Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says—the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
====Results of the Messiah's coming (long-term)====
* Isaiah 61:1-2 (1) The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, (2) to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
* Isaiah 49:6 he (the Lord) says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
* Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations (Gentiles)."
Editor2020 (talk) 03:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Claimed examples of prophecy

message: * Isaiah 61:1-2 (1) The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, (2) to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
* Isaiah 49:6 he (the Lord) says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
* Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations (Gentiles)."
Editor2020 (talk) 03:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Results of the Messiah's coming (long-term)

message: When (and if) I get time, I might add this, but probably will not have time soon. Somebody who is qualified and who can be objective needs to do so. In Islamic doctrine, Jesus is called the Messiah too, and the doctrine of the Second Coming also is shared with Christianity, as is that of the Virgin Birth. Muslims disagree with Christians, though, on Christ's divinity and death but believe He is one of the four Messengers of God, along with an unspecified number of other prophets. In many ways, Christianity and Islam are more similar to each other than are Christianity and Judaism--and also more similar to Judaism than to Christianity. As part of the same Judeo-Islamic-Christian tradition, Islam in many ways combines aspects of the other two faiths. 50.104.198.87 (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic doctrines should be included. 

message: Try 365 Messianic Prophecies --Quarantine Zone (talk) 15:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  365 Messianic Prophecies 

message: As of at least 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Messianic_prophecy&oldid=40382808), when the Messanic prophecy page was updated, and the Revision as of 20:48, 16 February 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jesus_and_messianic_prophecy&diff=prev&oldid=108686013) when it was moved back onto this page, it has stated "This theory is supported by the fact that such a verse exists in a copy of Samuel found among the Dead Sea Scrolls." - this was flagged for a citation in March 2010, and a citation was added in the Revision as of 23:40, 26 July 2015, listing David Keener's 1999 commentary on Matthew (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sWzhEdBZOp4C&q=nazereth#v=onepage&q=nazereth&f=false) - this does *not* refer to any such verses and should not be considered a valid citation for this statement.  The statement may be true, but I have not found any evidence for it so far - for such a difficult passage none of the following mention it; Tasker (1961), France (1985), Morris (1992) Green (2000), Wright (2002), Legg (2004).  Epideme (talk) 04:29, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Existence of prophecy relating to Nazareth in Dead Sea Scrolls 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Jesus and messianic prophecy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080529001843/http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/pdf/EnglishHandbook.pdf to http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/pdf/EnglishHandbook.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Jesus and messianic prophecy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071011083916/http://deism.com:80/paine_essay03.htm to http://deism.com/paine_essay03.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: According to WP:ASSERT we should not label facts as opinions or opinions as facts. It is misleading to attribute the view about those verses to "some scholars, like Bart Ehrman" when it is as objective fact as anything can be an objective fact about the Bible: those verses either aren't prophecies (fact, not opinion), or they make no mention of the word "Messiah" (again, fact, not opinion). The only exception is Zechariah 13:6, which is explicitly about the false prophet. Since there are no Christians prepared to claim that Jesus was a false prophet, Zech. 13:6 obviously isn't (in their view) a prophecy referring to Jesus. Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:29, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asserting facts, not opinions 

message: And the strongest argument about it is that post-Enlightenment historians do not work with precognition. So for historians, all prophecies about Jesus must be bunk, since the writers of the Old Testament had no interest of speaking about him, even if they would have known him. Hint: they weren't Christians.
Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  One reason to trump them all 

message: "Jesus of Nazareth - if a person of this name existed - would be among the many other Jewish messiah claimants." We cannot verify such statement to the citations from Ehrman. Further, Ehrman is not a Jew, so he does not speak in the name of Judaism, he speaks as a mainstream Bible scholar and sought to render the consensus among Bible scholars. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: User:PiCo, where do you get this claim that Immanuel's mother is "standing nearby" as the prophecy is given? Alephb (talk) 02:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: See Horst Dietrich Preuss's entry on eth (of all things) in Botterweck et. al., Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, page 461, where he explains that the correct translation is "Behold, the young woman is pregnant (etc)," and that it applies to a specific young woman known to the king. This is found in many other sources and can be regarded as the standard view, a point made by Marvin Sweeney in his commentary on Isaiah 1-39. As for "standing nearby", the prophet says, "Behold!", indicating that the young woman was in sight - and bear in mind that the "sign" is not the pregnancy nor the birth of the child, but its name and the fact (Isaiah promises) that the threat to the House of David will be lifted before it matures. You can delete it if you wish.PiCo (talk) 05:57, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully buy that it had to be a woman whose identity Ahaz would know without having it spelled out, and having her standing there is a plausible way to read it. I'd imagine it could be read other ways, too -- there's a particular young woman whom Ahaz has reason to believe might be pregnant, or what have you. I'm not going to step in and delete it. Reading hinneh ha-almah as "this young woman here" seems reasonable enough, even if it does go a step beyond what the cited sources specifically say. Alephb (talk) 06:51, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "standing nearby" 

message: The Bible verses are listed alphabetically. Should they be shown chronologically? Some original statements appear to be time-sensitive to contemporary events, and others appear to have been based on earlier ones. Asking for a friend. Mannanan51 (talk) 22:31, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest picking a canon and doing it in canonical order, but I would endorse a chronological order as an improvement over what we have now. Alephb (talk) 23:34, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Format 

message: Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:54, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  When Jews read the Bible 

message: I am baffled that you have removed two of the three sources. The argument is that the methodological naturalism of the historical method does not allow for supernatural precognition as objective historical fact. All those three sources toe this line and you either remove all three of them or none of them. Besides, there was nothing inherently anti-Christian about the article: mainline Protestants and Catholics are not principally opposed to higher criticism. Only fundamentalist Christians play a find the heresy game, wherein they claim that mainline Protestants and Catholics aren't really Christians because they do not reject higher criticism out of hand. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources were stuck at inappropriate places. The sources were NOT stuck at the place where methodological naturalism was discussed, but it was stuck at the place where we said that the prophecies are not prophecies. Again, our wording seemed more snarky than anything, and ignored people who disagree and even sources. Just from my memory, I could remember Dr Richard Carrier citing b.Sanhedrin 98b, which explicitly supports the idea that Isiah 53 was a messianic prophecy. See more of his discussion here. --GoogleMeNowPlease (talk) 18:34, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved them to a new section. Are you suggesting that there are historians who disagree with naturalism? Accepting supernatural intervention as a causative force in history would lead to some very odd results.Achar Sva (talk) 20:06, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I am fine with moving them to a new section. GoogleMeNowPlease (talk) 20:34, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing sources 

message: Since the article is OT prophecy quoted in the NT, it would apparently make more sense to take the books of the NT and discuss the OT quotes they make (because they do make them). Ideas?Achar Sva (talk) 12:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure article 

message: Isn't this an encyclopedia?  The title of this article is clear.  But the contents stray from the title.  
The article seems to have no Bible scholars checking it.  Most significantly is the failure to recognize that a historical event can be both historical and yet prophetic.  
Case in point: Under Debate about prophecy fulfillment, the article states: 
Skeptics say that the Hosea passage clearly is talking about a historical event and therefore the passage clearly is not a prophecy.
However, by doing so these skeptics (which it sounds like the article author is biased towards) are also removing all past historical events from the possibility of prophetic foreshadowing.  Similar dual-purpose events can be seen in historical events like Moses's bronze snake on a pole as described in .  This event is later revealed by Jesus to serve as a prophetic event that foreshadows the method of the Messiah's work, 
 
The same can be said of the Book of Jonah. Whether Jonah is taken as a true historical narrative or allegory, the fact remains that in Matthew 12:40 Jesus cites Jonah's three-day entombment as both a historical event and a foreshadowing of his own crucifixion and three-day entombment. Additional examples include Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son (and ultimately receiving a substitute) as historically described in Genesis 22.  Here Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son in obedience to the will of God serves as a foreshadow of the Gospel narratives as stated plainly in John 3:16, and expounded upon in Romans 3. Christians see the Messiah as a sacrificial substitute to take on God's wrath for humankind's sins. What's more long-standing Jewish ceremonies and traditions are often cited as a foreshadowing of God's plan of salvation, culminating in the work of the Messiah:
So the fact that such a passage in Hosea or elsewhere talks about a historical event does not necessarily rule it out as prophetic in nature. Otherwise, vast portions of Jewish history and religious practices from Genesis to the return from exile and all the sacrifices for sins that took place during those times could not be considered prophetic to the final sacrificial work of the Messiah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:443:c101:c760:2de6:63fe:d49d:9b5e (talk • contribs) 
:That's of course fine and dandy as (conservative) Christian theology, but it isn't history. I have nothing against "the Baptists believe that...", since WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV is used. Attribution is not used for historical facts. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rule out historical events as prophetic? 

message: Prophecies from book of Enoch should be added. It is considered scripture by Ethiopian Orthodox Church. If we are gonna include Deuterocanonical books, we must include Enoch too. There are many Jesus prophecies in Enoch. Jude quoted from book of Enoch in Jude 14. Staraloy (talk) 12:19, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book of Enoch 

message: Søren Kierkegaard does agree that choosing for Christianity cannot be based upon sufficient reason. The truth value of Christian theology is a contingent truth. Meaning science and history could never show that Christianity is true; it isn't thus objectively true.
And no, Kierkegaard was no atheist. He was more fundamentalist than your rank-and-file Bible thumper. He just wasn't stupid, and some Christians are inclined to think that not being stupid is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there is no cogent explanation of why do they consider him an atheist. I have lived to see a fundamentalist Protestant being called an atheist by fellow fundamentalists who want to win an argument through spewing claptrap memes. I mean even Conservapedia does not call him an atheist. So, of all the fake claims I have heard at Wikipedia, this one is fake in a very big way. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "it isn't thus objectively true"? Tuxzos22 (talk) 01:00, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Meaning that according to objective knowledge such as science and history, Christian theology is neither true, nor false. It does not have truth value, except for very rare cases wherein it claims have been either verified or debunked. Of course, nobody could debunk the claim that Jesus is God, since such claim does not pertain to objective knowledge, it is merely a subjective religious belief. The claim that Jesus is God is unfalsifiable, so science and history cannot say whether it is true or false. tgeorgescu (talk)  02:00, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kierkegaard 

message: is true believer's WP:POV, it isn't WP:RNPOV, as our articles should be. See also emic and etic. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  True believer's POV 

message: Who cares about the Jesus Seminar? The Jesus Seminar is WP:FRINGE by design. And they are certainly not representative for mainstream Bible scholarship. At the other extreme, equally fringe is biblical literalism. tgeorgescu (talk)  21:05, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus Seminar 

message: I have reverted vandalism. Most Christians are or would count themselves in the Liberal Christianity camp if they would think it through. Liberal Christianity has absolutely no problem with this article. Wikipedia is indeed biased for WP:BESTSOURCES.
Note that I have WP:CITEd a professor from the Moody Bible Institute ("Bible is our middle name"), who sees the problem only too well.
So, no, Wikipedia isn't anti-Christian. But it isn't WP:CENSORED for the protection of the sensibilities of fundamentalist Christians.
In light of the epistemology of history, our article makes perfect sense: the authors of the Old Testament could not have known anything about Jesus of Nazareth, since they lived many centuries before him. If your divinity school isn't fundamentalist or evangelical, its professors will readily admit this. tgeorgescu (talk)  01:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Who are you talking to? Dimadick (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: To people who seek to ruin our articles. tgeorgescu (talk)  17:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article and most Christians