Talk:Casey Jones

message: IWW version of song, "Casey Jones the Union Scab", might be worth mention. --Jerzy•t 20:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Casey Jones the Union Scab"

message: In the introduction it says he was from Jackson, Tennessee.  in the section about his youth it says he was born in southeast Missouri    Which is it? --98.23.135.127 (talk) 09:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Location of birth

message: In the Beginnings section, Jones's age in 1878 is listed as 15, but I don't think that matches up with his date of birth. I think he can only have been 13 or 14 then. Stu 02:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Age at first employment

message: Maybe one should add that in two pretty well known songs by Gillian Welch there is a reference
to Casey Jones; not necessarily as a hero, but maybe just as someone who moved fast.
=="S" Curve Innacuracy"
The text referenced Casey entering the last part of an "S" curve.  In reality, the wreck location (north switch at Vaughn Siding) was nearly in the middle of a 1.5 mile long, 0'30" curve.  North of this curve, the track is straight for approximately 5 miles to the north back to the curve at Pickens. REB281 (talk) 03:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Casey Jones in Gillian Welch's songs

message: This mentions that Jones possibly saved lives by riding the brake into the accident, but http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/casey.htm notes that once the e-brake is set you don't need to hold it anymore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.173.136 (talk • contribs) 17:46, September 23, 2006.
:The article says "When alerted to the danger Casey doubtless reacted instinctively, pulling on the brakes, throwing the engine in reverse, and dumping the sanders. He knew he had to stay with the engine, and do everything he could to slow it down, which involved continually dumping sand and applying and reapplying the brakes, otherwise lives would have been lost. The air brakes when applied are virtually instantaneous for the 6 car train. But on this night the rails were wet, reducing surface traction and braking ability. If Casey had pulled on the brakes and then jumped, the wheels would have slid along the rails and actually increased in speed like a sled rather than slowing down. With him at the controls, he could apply and release the brakes to slow the engine more quickly, while dumping sand on the tracks all the while, and thus not putting the train into a slide. This puts to rest the myth that Casey could have applied the brakes once and jumped to safety with a clear conscience." What is the source for Jones applying and releasing the brakes repeatedly? He was not driving a car, where it used to be (before antilock brakes) a good practice to pump the brakes. Train brakes do not work that fast.  I have read an account by fireman Webb wherein there is no mention of Jones releasing and reapplying the brakes. Is this text sourced or is it conjecture? See  "The Commercial Appeal" Title: CASEY STORY ALIVE AND CHUGGING \ 100-YEAR-OLD CRASH RECALLED. Author: Bill Dries  The Commercial Appeal ate: April 30, 2000 Section: Metro Page: B1 which quotes a 1937 interview of Webb by journalist Ernie Pyle. Webb just said Jones applied the brakes. If he came around a curve and saw the stopped train, how much time did he have, and how long would it take to apply and release the brakes? Why would the train have gained speed (contrary to Newton's laws of motion) while sliding to a stop? (was it downhill?)Edison 00:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brakes

message: Given Westinghouse automatic air brake tecnology of 1900, there is absolutely no way Casey would have "pumped" the brakes and he never would have made such a foolish move.  Even if you accept that Flagman Newberry had been properly positioned to flag Casey 3,000 feet from the the rear of Train No. 83, at 75 MPH, Casey would have less than 30 seconds to react.  Initiating an engineer-induced emergency application of the train brakes from the locomotive brake valve would have reduced brake pipe pressure to zero and applied the train brakes on the cars.  In order to "release" this applicatoin, Casey would have had to release the brakes by restoring sufficient brake pipe pressure throughout all six cars to allow the respective control valves on each car to sense another brake pipe reduction.
Further, Casey's speed at the point of derailment is presumed to have been approximately 35 MPH indicating he had been successful in scrubbing off over 35 MPH in a distance of less than 3,000 (even less if you presume he never saw/heard Flagman Newberry).  There would not appear to be any physical way this could have occurred with the train brake being released at any point.
With respect to hydroplaining, contrary to the analogy to anti-lock brakes and depictions of train braking in movies, the weight and braking charastics of 1900 era heavy weight passenger cars would not have slid the wheels when applied in emrgency at 75 MPH.  While they MAY have slid as the speed decreased, releasing at that point would have been the last thing an engineer would have done as there would have been no time to recharge/reapply.  In addition, the atmospheric condition (raining/misting) would have had minimal affect on the braking characteristics.  The head of the rail is only a few inches wide and rounded so it does not hold water as a roadway tends to do.  The wheel treads, while wet, are in centrifugal rotation and do not hold water as an automobile tire tends to do.  At 70+MPH wheel treads would dry almost immediately with an emergency brake application.  While there may be a theoretical reduction in braking capability, without snow, or freezing conditions, it would have been virtually imperceptable on a train consisting of six heavy weight passenger cars--and certainly orders of magnitude less than the braking capacity he would have lost by releasing and reapplying the brakes.
It is far more logical to presume Casey "dynamited" his locomotive, placing the automatic brake valve handle into emergency position, placing the Johnson Bar (reversing lever) into reverse, opening the throttle so that the main drivers reversed, and applying sand.  As the train slowed, it would not have been unreasonable to speculate that Casey may have felt the rate of deceleration was sufficient to make the collision survivable and feeling that remaining in the locomotive cab provided an acceptable condition.  Jumping from a locomotive cab at high speed is not anyone's first choice if there are options.  As he was on the outside of the curve (the engineers positoin is on the right hand side of the cab and the train was operatnig around a long left hand curve), he also may not have known the exact location of No. 83's caboose and felt he had more time/distance.  In the dark, red signals tend to look further away than they actually are.  Once he saw the position of the caboose, he may have felt he was in a better position to brace himself and ride it out than to take the chance of being on the walkway between the cab and tender if the collisoin occured before he had time to jump.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by REB281 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Train Braking Innacuracies

message: The text in the article states:
* Joe Hill used Jones as an anti-hero in his parody song "Casey Jones, the Union Scab", later sung by Harry McClintock and Utah Phillips, among others.  It is this version which contains the line "you got another papa on the Salt Lake Line," which Mrs. Jones found so objectionable.  This version of the song was adapted by Joe Hill for striking shop crews on the Southern Pacific Railroad; he found it a useful source, since the SP engineers had refused to come out in support of the shopmen.  The reference to the "Salt Lake Line," along with references to the desirability of riding the Santa Fe and the Northern Pacific, are unsubtle references to the Southern Pacific's competitors.
Some of parts it (the stricken parts) are flatly wrong. 
The song first gained widespread distribution in 1912 in the Little Red Songbook of the IWW. Here are links:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/casey.html
http://www.newyouth.com/archives/music/joehill.asp
I've heard the Joe Hill song for decades (i am a member of the IWW,) and have never heard the extra lyrics or references mentioned here. 
If anyone questions this information, i'd be happy to put out the word to have someone directly check the original songbook for that year.
Richard Myers 09:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Joe Hill version of song

message: The Jones as folk hero in art section is becoming overwhelming, even with the information that is already split off to Casey Jones (disambiguation).  With a section title like we're using, I would more expect to see a scholarly discussion of symbolism in using the name "Casey Jones" in popular culture rather than a trivia list of everywhere the name appears.  As it is now, this section adds very little to the article itself; the list is already longer than the biography, and is very likely to be a great deal longer as more references to him are discovered/revealed.  
So, I suggest that we split that section out to its own list page titled something like List of references to Casey Jones in popular culture.  Such a title more accurately describes the content and we wouldn't have to patrol the list any more to remove items that are on the disambiguation page. Slambo (Speak) 15:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hearing no objections after six days, I'm splitting the section out as proposed.  Slambo (Speak) 20:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. Slambo (Speak) 21:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So my split was reverted.  Anyone care to discuss the issue here?  Slambo (Speak) 21:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the revert was reverted.  Unless there are any other objections, the split appears to stand.  Slambo (Speak) 21:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: There needs to be a section on at least the song, without which he would be known only to his descendants and extreme railroad buffs. Edison 14:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed split

message: Was that a 2-8-0 engine? Seems like a good place for a link. Here is a possible picture. Also, if anyone knows the configuration of No 382, it'd be interesting to train buffs. John Duncan 01:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Engine No. 638

message: I provided a reference for the statement that Casey Jones is the world's most famous railroad engineer. I didn't feel it was necessary as it is pretty obvious that he is, but two people have challenged the use of the absolute qualifier. If you were to take a worldwide poll as to who was the world's most famous engineer, I think Casey Jones would actually be the ONLY name mentioned. Ask any hard-core railroad buffs and I bet no other name comes up either. Here's what the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson, Tennessee had to say about the centennial of the Casey Jones wreck in 2000: "We have received a great deal of interest in the celebration of the centennial of Casey Jones' wreck from both the media and the general public. We have done interviews with UPI, the Farmers Almanac, The Discovery Channel and the BBC concerning the Casey Jones story and the 100th anniversary. American History magazine featured the Casey Jones story in its December 1999 issue. ABC's Good Morning America has also expressed a strong interest in covering this story. TRAINS magazine, the premier publication for railroad enthusiasts, is planning a major tribute to Casey Jones in April 2000. Railfan & Railroad magazine is also planning coverage of the 100th Anniversary. In addition, the Casey Jones story and anniversary will be the focal point for a major media blitz in the German, Austrian and Swiss travel markets in February 2000. We expect this interest to continue on both the national and international scale."  Has any other railroad engineer ever received such enduring international media attention? No. Has any other railroad engineer been the subject of a classic song that lives on 107 years after his death? No. Can anybody think of any other famous railroad engineers? No? Any other railroad engineers that have *2* museums in their honor? No. Case closed. 206.255.99.165 (talk) 19:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Casey's Fame

message: There's a link to "Casey Jones - Union Scab".  It's a dead link.
The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers did not consider Casey Jones a scab.  Brother Jones was a member in good standing of BLE Division 99, Water Valley, Miss. at the time of his death.. --John Nagle (talk) 20:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Casey Jones - Union Scab"?

message: Do we really need a baptism section in a biography? If so, should we have a section about his first day of school too? —Voidxor (talk) 05:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at the date.  He was baptized as an adult, presumably in preparation for his marriage two weeks later. Maybe it should be merged into the next section. J S Ayer (talk) 17:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Baptism section has been merged with the Marriage section. This seems logical as Jones got baptized preparatory to marriage. 155.76.162.253 (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Baptism section unnecessary

message: This article now says Casey Jones was born in 1863.  This page has a photograph of a stone monument that says it was 1864. Michael Hardy (talk) 15:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I found it; this is covered in the article. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Date of birth?

message: The lasting legacy of Casey Jones -- in popular culture -- was diminished in this article when the sub article Casey Jones in popular culture was deleted in mid 2007.  There was much useful information in it, some of which could be reintroduced into the article on this page.  I've copied the deleted text below, with the hope that some of it can be distilled, brought up to wikipedia standards, and integrated into the Casey Jones article. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 17:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Casey Jones in popular culture

message: There was too much unsourced speculation about the position of the flagman adn what Webb could or could not see. It appears that much was written about this, so editors have to cite RS and add sources in order to expand this section. Other mentions of "some historians" thought this and others that need to be supported by identifying which historians thought which, with cites, or it can all be deleted. No doubt there are sources, so these need to be added to support an expansion of this section; otherwise it sounds like OR - Original Research.Parkwells (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced speculation about flagman

message: This is not supposed to be hagiography. Make more encyclopedic and factual in tone.Parkwells (talk) 17:37, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Edited for more neutral tone

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: And why was it worth more than most of the other cars, almost quadruple the price of the freakin' engine? This is going to bug me forever. Can anyone clarify what IC box car 11380 was? I've tried googling it but all I get is Wikipedia and copypastes of Wikipedia. :( 124.190.207.57 (talk) 17:18, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  What was IC box car 11380? 

message: I do not see how "This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry". Maybe whoever put that claim can provide specific examples. 79.150.173.134 (talk) 13:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Barring that, compare the present article with the June 2014 version that the tag was originally to. Even so, if the present version now has encyclopedic style (did some February 2015 edit fix it?), then the tag can be removed. See what the Template:Story documentation instructions say. See if the original tagger is still active. IveGoneAway (talk) 19:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The Casey Jones#Casey Jones references in music section is misleading: Pete Seeger and Leonid Utyosov both sang Joe Hill’s lyrics. Those three should really be reason enough to spin off the single paragraph about this version into its separate page (as is the case with Casey Jones (song) by the Grateful Dead), but in the meantime, I’m going to try and move things around in the section here. If somebody can find them in a library, sources like "Casey Jones": At the Crossroads of Two Ballad Traditions and On the Wobbly "Casey Jones" and Other Songs might provide a more scholarlike point of view than the current rhetoric of the article. --92.195.91.95 (talk) 10:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon further research, there is already an article for this version, just not with a very findable name: Casey Jones—the Union Scab. --92.195.91.95 (talk) 11:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Songs: the Joe Hill version 

message: The article mentions the site of the crash at "two-tenths of a mile north of Tucker's Creek".  Is there any sort of monument there?   And while we're at it, exactly where is/was the crash site?  I can't find anything near Vaughan, Miss. called Tucker's Creek.  Elsquared (talk) 06:56, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the article on Vaughan, Mississippi, the marker is missing but the original support post is still there, at coordinates 32.816590°N 90.038428°W.  I verified it on Google Earth.  Elsquared (talk) 21:59, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  exact location of crash? 

message: This entire section is ref'd way below our standards, is quite possibly not true, and needs to be removed. I've tagged it for now.  
  
The two refs are a biography by his "biographer and friend" (emphasis added) Fred J. Lee. Whether Lee just got the tale from Jones or elsewhere, I don't know (the book is obscure and long out of print I think), but we can be certain it wasn't independently fact-checked. Here, an entity called LibraryThing (which looks like a legit operation) says "Despite the claim that this is the 'true story' of Casey, it is a work of fiction... Lee [does] not know the difference between truth and fiction". They eviscerate the book at length. That could be some random mook writing, but it's not a good look.
The other ref is a website for what looks to be a pretty amateur-grade and boosterish local museum probably not curated to the level of genuine museums. It's open for two hours on Friday and two more on Saturday... No sub-page is given, and there're too many to check, but a cursory look doesn't find any instances of "child" or "rescue" in the main page, nor any sub-page titles that look likely. Until someone digs it out and maybe finds a pointer to an actually reliable ref (if one exists, which would... astonish me), it's not a good ref. Here is a more current version of the website than what's used in the article. (That website is cited 26 times in this article, but that doesn't make it more reliable.)
  
Sorry. We all like Casey and it's a nice story, and maybe it belongs in some compilation of tall tales or something, but not in an encyclopedia. Absent cogent objection, I propose to remove the section. Herostratus (talk) 00:18, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rescue of a child from the tracks 

message: In the UK there used to be a chain of burger-and-fries takeaways called "Casey Jones" on railway stations in the very late 80s/very early 90s (yeah, you had to be pretty hungry or drunk, and in a hurry to catch your train). By 1994 they had converted into a semi-autonomous chain of Burger Kings, which served the normal Burger King menu but didn't accept Burger King vouchers (one of those slow, phased integrations of restaurant/coffee shop chains, I guess). I guess they became fully integrated Burger Kings after that. Might be worth posting if somebody has a source.
I had no idea what the name meant until I chanced on this article just now while watching "The Fugitive". No such thing as useless knowledge, eh?Paulturtle (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I had almost forgotten (fortunately). A little InterCity 125 trip down Memory Mainline? More delicious detail at Arthur Pewty's Maggot Sandwich. Warning: these sources may not be WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:23, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:    I was just beginning to wonder whether this is the Casey Jones after whom the burger chain is named, considering that my memory is of them being stalls at London railway stations.  The pages you link to don't seem to shed much light, though the second one indicates that it was a British Rail operation and so it's plausible that it was named after a railway engineer.  But ... why would BR have named a business operation after an American engineer, who doesn't (by a quick scan of this article) appear to have had any involvement with British railways?  In any case, it would be good if we could find some more information about this. — Smjg (talk) 09:37, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  British Rail Burgers 

message: I was unfamiliar with this story, and find this article doesn't really explain what was so notable about his life, besides the media venerating him after the fact. The very beginning reads like he was just a railroader who died in a crash, not until the very last sentence does it say "All are agreed, however, that Jones managed to avert a potentially disastrous crash through his exceptional skill at slowing the engine and saving the lives of the passengers at the cost of his own." Reading the details of the story however, it seems like a situation he had caused in the first place by speeding and trying to make up those 75 minutes. 
Maybe at this point in history it would be better acknowledge some of the books, songs and films about him were ahistorical, and to focus this article towards Casey Jones, the pop culture figure whose real train crash spun into a number of tall tales, instead of Casey Jones, the historical figure who may or may not have saved people from a situation he may or may not have been able to avoid. Something like "Casey Jones was a railroader ... whose death in a crash in 1900 inspired a number of songs and films hailing him as a hero, most notably the traditional American folk song "The Ballad of Casey Jones"" Jjollyy (talk) 14:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refocusing the Lead Section?