Talk:English language/Archive 9

message: The ranking is off, here are the Encarta and Ethnologue estimates:
Ethnologue
#Mandarin
#Spanish
#English
Encarta
#Mandarin not ranked by them but all recent estimates agree it is by far 1
#Arabic
#Hindi
#English
I'll correct it from saying "2-4" to "3-4" --Android Mouse
But with en dashes, PLEASE. Tony 01:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ranking

message: I propose that this ugly, useless infobox be removed altogether. Please see the debate [Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Image_V_InfoBox here]. The MoS, in fact, disallows infoboxes that have no pic in the top-right position, it appears. The problem that these ugly infoboxes uncomfortably compartmentalise information, most or all of which is already in the text, is a sleeping giant. It's been brought to a head by the silliness on this page concerning the naming of a cast of thousands within it. I propose to remove it in the next week. Tony 23:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've attempted to improve the infobox by putting all the countries into a drop-down list, which is hidden by default, so it won't look as intrusive as before.(RexImperium 08:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's better, but most people will click the big red "68 countries", which leads to the edit box. I did. Tony 11:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The redlink is now fixed, although this now reveals the inconsistency between our 68 country list and the 74 countries shown in List of countries where English is an official language. -- Avenue 12:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we make a list of the countries that are missing, it should be easy to add them. I've found this list of flag templates []. (RexImperium 15:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Getting rid of the elephant 

message: Why hasn't madagascar been coloured in yet? The country adopted English as the third official language in 2007.
:I just updated the image. —Angr 14:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Madagascar

message: What's with the line in the chart that equates IPA 'x' with "kh, ch, h (in foreign words)"??  The last column says "occasionally ch loch (Scottish English, Welsh English)", which I suppose is true.  But I have *never* heard a voiceless velar fricative in other dialects of English, at least not unless someone was trying to clear their throat.  Maybe in Middle English, but I can't remember that far back...
I would edit that line out, but I'm thinking there must be some kind of history to the decision to say that (but I can't imagine what it would be).  Mcswell 03:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the U.S. at least, some people use [x] in Yiddish/Hebrew words like chutzpah and Hanukkah. And even if it did occur only in Welsh English and Scottish English, that's still reason enough to keep it. Sure, it's a pretty marginal phoneme of Modern English, but since there are native English speakers (even monolingual English speakers) who use it, even if only in a few words, it should stay. —Angr 04:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also used in the Liverpool dialect. TharkunColl 15:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Basic sound-letter correspondence

message: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560661/Brunei.html
http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=ENG
http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_country.asp?name=Brunei
According to some source English is an official language of Brunei. All sources state that there are some native speakers of English in Brunei and that the government uses it for official purposes. What do you think?
* also the more recent ethnologue entry lists English as an official language in Brunei. In it goes. Drmaik 06:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Where's Brunei?

message: The article Singlish describes it as a creole; whether that's accurate or not is for someone else to decide. But the main reason I left Singapore on the list while removing countries where creoles rather than English are the dominant language is that the Singapore source cited identifies the language in question as English, while the sources cited for the others said things like "this is the number of speakers of the local creole", or "this number includes speakers of creole", etc. —Angr 06:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well put, rather better put than my edit summary. Drmaik 07:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see much benefit in discussing whether Singlish is a creole here; our Singlish article says it is, so any concerns on that front should probably be addressed there. What we need to decide here is whether it is sensible to include Singapore in our native speaker table while excluding other countries such as Jamaica. These two countries both have a sizable number of people natively speaking something that I understand is not easily intelligible to an average British or American English speaker (albeit in a continuum ranging through to a more intelligible "standard" variety), so I think that including either of them without any caveat could be misleading. -- Avenue 11:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A major issue here is sourcing. Ethnologue has Jamaicans not being mother-tongue English, but look under Singapore and there are 227,000 speakers listed for English. Encarta lists Singapore as a place where English is spoken, but not Jamaica (but then it also includes Ecuador and Denmark!) (also, that lists seems to be partly derived from the Ethnologue). And as Singlish says, an awful lot of people speak pretty much standard there (inc. my Singaporean niece). It would be nice to find some richer sources, but on these issues what counts as English is generally up to the opinion of the author. But some caveat would not be inappropriate. Drmaik 11:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree any caveat shouldn't be overstated. The Singaporeans I know speak perfectly "good English" to me (although I could say the same about Jamaicans). For sourcing a caveat, would one of these quotes be useful? David Crystal: "Despite its name, Singlish is not easily analysed as a 'dialect' of English, for its admixture of Chinese and English makes it unintelligible to those from a monolingual background." Minister's speech launching 'Speak Good English' movement: "... when English-speaking foreigners come to work in Singapore, initially many have difficulty trying to understand us." -- Avenue 14:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Singlish a creole? 

message: Think before you edit. That "superfluous" remark has the effect of indicating that most spread of the English Language is ultimately down to the British Empire. I don't know if you have some other motive for removing the remark, but the USA is an offshoot of the British empire. It separated, and expanded. Therefore, offshoot. I'll wait for your response,if there is none, I'll re-insert the remark.
:The remark seemed quite of context and frankly irrelevant. The paragraph is about the spread of English around the world; at the time the U.S. gained independence, the British Empire had barely begun; it consisted pretty much of just Britain, Ireland, and Canada. The British Empire didn't really start spreading English around the globe until after the U.S. was already independent. And a parenthetical remark about the U.S. being "an offshoot of the British Empire" in the middle of a sentence discussing the period after World War II is just completely out of place. —Angr 19:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It emphasises the point that the US was a direct consequence of the British Empire, and that the english language's dominance is therefore caused by the British Empire. And the Empire had started spreading english around the globe, when they founded the states. That's why the USA's inhabitants speak the language. A direct consequence of the Empire's spreading the language around the world. Noted at the first mention of the USA during the explanation of the spread of the language. Quantum Burrito 20:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the removal: Whatever truth there may be in saying the USA is an offshoot of the British empire, it is irrelevant in this article. --teb728 21:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Remove superfluous parenthetical remark" 

message: There is a minor mistake in the subdivision of "Constructed varieties of English", in the following sentence: "Some English schools in Asia teach it as an practical subset of English for use by beginners."
Unless, that is, the pre-vowel form of the indefinite article is concept here))Timeastor 18:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor mistakes 

message: Just wanted to suggest the following website which is a great resource for learning about or just learning the English Language:
http://www.usingenglish.com/
(Resources for English as a Second Language)
(Domineaux 01:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User's first edit. "Very good resource" and "great resource" suggest attempts at promotion. There are quite enough external links in the article already; unless it's a citation, we don't need any more – Gurch 10:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very good resource to add as external link 

message: English is an official language of the Olympic games, the european union, aviation, the united nations...
Why are some of these missing from the article. Any other language page such as Spanish would be eager to list them.
: I don't object to any of them being added, but I guess it's because English is not exclusive. To take the European Union, English is just one of 23 official languages. JdeJ 21:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why down play the use of English?