Talk:Hubris/Archive 1

message: the contemporary bit seems like it isn't necessarily referring to the same phenomenon (Anon)
:I'm sure it is - deliberately turning the concept upside down, making hubris a virtue for retorial effect. However, I don't think it belongs in the article anyway.--Niels Ø 10:09, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
I still think the modern hubris section doesn't add much, excepting perhaps the Larry Wall quote, though that would need more explanation. It seems too much like speculation (and by wikipedians, not by someone we're reporting on), is overly general, and I don't think you can make it specific ("examples of hubris are.." heh, watch the row erupt :). Martijn Faassen 21:08, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: contemporary hubris (Larry Wall quote)

message: The article claims:
Military organizations have long realized this and many take great care to build in organizational structures and procedural controls to limit its dangers. Such restraints are less likely to be found in other fields.
Is there any actual evidence for this, or is this just speculation? There are plenty of instances of military dictators with hubris that their organizational structures ("built with great care") were unable to suppress, after all.. Some more details would be useful, otherwise I'm going to remove that. Martijn Faassen 3 July 2005 17:03 (UTC)
:Since nobody spoke up for it, I've now removed that section. Martijn Faassen 21:28, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that was a good edit.  Thanks.  Nandesuka 23:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military hubris management techniques? 

message: Can anyone give me citations showing that any of the characters in the list of hubristic characters are actually described as hubristic?  The suitors in the Odyssey definitely are, but Odysseus, for instance, in the Odyssey is definitely not.  How much of this stuff is based on the great 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica article?  We really shouldn't be relying on something that old. Charlie 16:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hubristic Characters 

message: The summary of Aristotle's quote near the top was poorly done. It makes it seem like there was no motive for the shaming except pleasure. "In Aristotle's view, a hubristic act is one that inflicts undeserved shame on the victim for the gratification of the perpetrator." This leaves out the most important part of Aristotle's quote, the explanation of why this type of act caused pleasure; it was for greater honor. It was a kind of sum-zero game, played in the arena of honor. To say it was done merely for self-gratification, inaccurately portrays the Greeks as ruthless barbarians. (Note: I am not saying it was ridiculous nonsense.)
: (Note:  Here begins a new comment on the unsigned comment directly above.  This comment regards the alteration of the *summary* of hubris in general found at the very top of the article, and not the summary of Aristotle's definition.)  
:  In my opinion the article as it stands now is innaccurate.  The fact that Aristotle gives a definition is significant and noteworthy, but that doesn't mean it's the be all and end all of definitions.  The general summary for the Hubris article was meant to reflect the conclusions of Fisher and McDowell and others (of course incorporating Aristotle as well).
: The remark about "ruthless barbarians" vs. honor-loving Greeks is an unsupported personal opinion.  In any case, the idea that committing hubris is essentially about gaining honor fails to take account of prominent usages of the word (and this is not my original research, but culled from scholarly sources).  Aeschines' Against Timarchus springs to mind.  Or the suitors' behavior in the Odyssey: there, there is no suggestion that what is foremost in the suitors' minds is a desire to gain honor; they just want to have a good time and won't let any social boundaries hold them back.  (One could go on.)  The conclusion of recent classical scholarship seems to be that an act of hubris involves--at least--someone acting on his impulses in violation of a recognized social boundary between him and a person of equal or greater social status, an act which by its nature results in dishonor for the victim.  The summary definition--which has now been altered--was written in the first place to reflect this conclusion.
: I'm not going to revert the changes, but this is something that should be discussed further.  Generally speaking, I think it would be nice if people posted a comment to the talk page *before* making changes to the article itself. Charlie — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campbel2 (talk • contribs) 15:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better Summary 

message: What is the "hubris cycle" in all of this? I have looked high and low and can't find it other than in college syllabi.  Is it similar to the aristeia in Homer's work?  It seems there is always a little hubris in those  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbayer50 (talk • contribs) 23:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hubris cycle"