Talk:United Airlines Flight 232

message: I changed "both horizontal stabilizers" to "the horizontal stabilizer," and the "right horizontal stabilizer" to "the horizontal stabilizer," simply because there is only one horizontal stabilizer.
Also rewrote a sentence, about the shrapnel puncturing the lines, to eliminate repetition and the reference to "the right horizontal stabilizer."  EditorASC (talk) 19:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also gone thru the entire article and replaced the word "incident" with the word "accident," where appropriate.  The word "incident" is incorrect nomenclature, whenever there is significant damage or physical injury.  When that is the case, always use the word "accident."  EditorASC (talk) 22:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Chronology Section

message: "In subsequent reconstructions of the circumstances of the accident in flight simulators, no pilot of any seniority has succeeded in reproducing Fitch's achievement of maneuvering the aircraft as far as the runway, generally losing control in mid air."
True? Veifiable? Guinnog 00:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read through the references?? --BACbKA 09:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: When Captain Al Haines came to an Oregon pilots convention in 1991 or 1992, he stated that 'Dozens of airline and test pilots lined up at the simulators programmed for the UA232 scenario.  Not one of them could get within 10 miles of the airport.  They asked if I'd like to give it a try.  I said, "I've already done the one that counts."   — EncMstr 20:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I've edited the article to address this point. Please sign by typing ~~~~. Thanks, --Guinnog 04:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The accident report and the CVR transcripts shows that they had diffucuties making left turn... but left turns were not impossible.When applying asymmetric power, this raised the wing of the side where the power was applied, rolling the plane and thus allowing them to make banking turns. --J-Star 08:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mac Job says, if I remember correctly, that this is because the controls were frozen by the loss of fluid into the right turn they were making when the incident occurred. --Guinnog 19:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know about that. Check he NTSB report for clues. --J-Star 10:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They only made one left turn, and four right turns, including a 360. See  --Guinnog 00:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Impossible to duplicate?

message: This article is informative, but it seems to me the writing could be improved. I hesitate to do this myself, because I do not have sufficient knowledge of the incident or the topic.
Maybe at UAL there is no pilot, but this has been reproduced at other airlines with some success.
:Not sure I understand the last sentence.  In any event, it helps a lot if each post on the talk pages is signed and dated.  If it helps, I am a retired UAL Captain, and I flew the DC-10 for 7 years, as a Second Officer (sometimes referred to as a Flight Engineer).  I have corrected some of the words and phrases in the article and it seems others have done the same.  Looks like it is shaping up pretty good now.  EditorASC (talk) 22:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs cleaning up 

message: Google for Jan Brown Lohr and you find plenty of references to her and her advocacy. Can someone please add one ro the requested citation request? I havn't figured out how to use those pesky ref-tags yet.
--J-Star 13:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jan Brown Lohr 

message: This article desperately needs an image of the fireball and/or wreckage to demonstrate the scale of the crash and the kind of media coverage it received. Abc30 18:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has had images of the crash since September and November 2006! Tim Pierce (talk) 13:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Please see if you can add anything to Dennis E. Fitch which I created today. I have emailed his PR company asking for any additional info like his DOB, and will add it if and when it comes. Thanks. --Guinnog 11:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New article

message: I've tagged this passage as needing a citation; it doesn't seem to make sense to me and I don't see it in any of the references: "At one point Fitch manually lowered the landing gear in flight, hoping that this action would force trapped hydraulic fluid back into the lines allowing some movement of control surfaces"
Also, the very useful transcription of the CVR contains at least one error as it refers to Fitch as "Jumpseat captain" when as far as I know (and according to all the refs I've seen) he was travelling in the passenger cabin. --Guinnog 19:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The landing gear info comes from the mini-documentary made by Errol Morris as an episode for "First Person". In it Fitch was interviewed at length (actually the entire documentary is a Fitch monologue) and he describes trying to lower the gear as a desperate last ditch effort to force hydraulic fluid back into the system. --Bk0 (Talk) 02:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I haven't seen that and I accept your word for it. I've put it back. Obviously, if we could come up with a verifiable transcript of that docu that would be ideal. --Guinnog 15:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More nitpicking, I'm afraid

message: I remember seeing a TV documentary where one of the flight crew said something about the height of the corn as they crashed. Can anybody provide the accurate quote? --Guinnog 02:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here () it says the corn was approximately seven feet tall (in the sixth paragraph).  Is that good enough? — EncMstr 02:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that verifies the height of the corn. The quote (I think probably from Fitch) was something like: "When I looked out the window and saw corn above me, I knew we were in trouble. I knew that corn grows tall in Iowa, but...". Ring any bells? --Guinnog 15:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Plea for quote

message: I've added a link at the top of this page to a peer review, to see how we can make this article even better. Any ideas are welcome. --Guinnog 19:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer review 

message: I think I have improved it somewhat, by adding this new section which denotes similar types of accidents (where structural failures led to the loss of hydraulic control systems), and the results.  The Eastern L-1011 would have been a loss of all SOBs, had it not had an additional 4th hydraulic control system, which the DC-10 did not have.  Same for the Pan Am 747, that had one remaining system with fluid still in it.  That too, saved all on board.   EditorASC (talk) 11:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similar Accidents 

message: On the "Lessons learned" section, it says that the 1 out of 4 kids to die was from smoke inhalation instead of injuries during the accident, this wouldn't have prompted the kid's mother to say what she said to Lohr and the subsequent reaction it had with her lobbying for "every child on a seat" law.
Isn't this a contradiction? Probably just for the benefit of the point against the law thing. Vizoso 21:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the mother's logic was that if the baby had had a seat of his/her own, then the baby would have stayed in the seat and then been carried out of the wreck after the crash. As it was, the mothers that held their babies in their arms lost their grip on them during the crash. The one died from smoke inhalation because it wasn't with its mother after the accident. Shreditor 04:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: One out of four lap children died? That's a higher survival rate that for the crash as a whole. But I quess that's WP:OR. 140.247.242.40 (talk) 20:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "lap Childs" 

message: I've done a lot of editing on this article in the past, but I left it alone and now its become really bloated with tertiary information which disrupts the flow of the article (though the information is good in itself). Someone ought to take on the task of moving many of those odds and ends in to more appropriate sections and restoring the readability of the article. Shreditor 22:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bloated and confusing

message: One of the external link is described as "Cockpit voice-recorder transcript (pdf) (NB contains error)". How are readers supposed to know what part of the transcript is erroneous? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair point. As the editor who added that note, I did so because the ASN transcript linked to mentions "Jumpseat Captain" and "Jumpseat Training pilot" as being two separate people. Macarthur Job and several other authors give them as being the same person (Denny Fitch). I assume it is just an error of interpretation on ASN's part. --John (talk) 05:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You may well be right that there was an error, but it seems to be a different error than the one you suggest. In the transcript, until the top of page 6, there appear to be four people in the cockpit: the captain, the first officer, the flight engineer, and the jumpseat captain. However, originally there were only three people in the cockpit, so I don't know who the jumpseat captain would have been. Then near the top of page 6, Denny Fitch enters the cockpit for the first time and introduces himself, and from then on he is referred to as being the jumpseat training pilot. So the "jumpseat captain" could not have been Fitch, but I don't know who he was. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My reading is that he was not entering for the first time but returning from checking the external control surfaces; when he introduces himself, he has already been talking to them for a while. I don't have the Mac Job book to hand to check, but can do so later. There were definitely only three people there at the start, and four at the end, unless Job is wrong, which would be almost unthinkable to me. I will check though. --John (talk) 05:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon further review, it appears that some of the things that the "jumpseat captain" said were actually things reported to have been said by Fitch according to the NTSB report. So the ASN editors apparently thought that the "jumpseat captain" and the "jumpseat training pilot" were different people, as you suggest above. I am not sure what we should do about this, though, given that the ASN transcript (a) could be a valuable resource but (b) apparently contains a significant misidentification. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link question 

message: The article says: "Of the 296 people aboard, 111 were killed in the crash, while 185 survived". I just watched this story on The History Channel, and they have the numbers nearly reversed: 112 survivors, 184 killed.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ziffel66 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't speak for that programme but it you check the sources listed in this article, like the NTSB Report, you'll find it was 111 fatalities. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also heard "112 killed", referenced MANY times. Captain Denny Fitch, a survivor of UA232, also stated on several televised programs ("Why Planes Go Down" and "Seconds From Disaster") that there were a 112 fatalities and 184 survivors and I've also heard Capt. Al Haynes, reference the same number. 111 initially died in the crash and 1 other person died of their injuries, later on. A documentary on National Geographic also references 112 dead/184 survivors. So, I will change the information and if someone can provide facts stating different numbers, it can be changed back. Here is are three references. The last reference is a YouTube link to the "Seconds from Disaster" program, detailing the crash of UA232. It was mentioned more than once that 112 perished and 184 survived ... http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=07191989®=N1819U&airline=United+Airlines and http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20118288,00.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TVNrwXscrI  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maryland Pride (talk • contribs) 01:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

text: The article was contradictory with some places saying 112 and others saying 111. Based on the "official" NTSB report, I'm agreeing with Redbone that references to how many died in the crash should say 111. I've updated the page, and made sure that the additional post-crash fatality is mentioned where appropriate. – jaksmata 15:18, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Death Count

message: In the article it says Fitch found out how to control the aircraft. However, from the transcript of the communication and from the interview with the captain, I get the impression that the crew had found that out themselves, even before Fitch entered the cockpit. At the end of the interview the captain makes it very clear that his regular colleague "was doing what he was told", but because Fitch apparently could handle the job better, he took over. --Bernardoni (talk) 19:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Captain Haynes was the first to steer the aircraft with the throttles. During the engine failure the aircraft was in a shallow right turn. As the hydraulic fluid bled away, it slowly banked farther and farther to the right. First Officer William Records was flying the aircraft at the time and soon found that even with full left aileron input, the aircraft was still slowly rolling to the right. He told Captain Haynes that he couldn't control the aircraft. Haynes responded by cutting the #1 throttle and firewalling the #3 throttle. Soon after, when Fitch entered the cockpit, they put him on the throttles. It became clear that he had some skill at controlling the aircraft this way and so they left him there. Shreditor (talk) 00:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I also got the impression from reading this article that Fitch came in and showed them how to stabilise/steer the plane, which seemed to contradict this docu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU2mqOLzlfU&feature=related. Based on these comments I've made the paragraph that initially confused me a little less ambiguous. Chris (talk) 09:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Role of Dennis Fitch 

message: "Despite the assumed extreme unlikelihood of such catastrophic failures occurring, other aircraft have lost all conventional control. Of these, United 232 was the most successful by far, as the others crashed with the loss of all or nearly all persons on board. United 232's level of success was not exceeded until 2003, when a cargo jet lost all flight controls after being struck by a surface to air missile but was nevertheless able to land safely."
Philippines Flight 434 landed without any additional deaths for example. PatrickDunfordNZ (talk) 20:45, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  United 232 was the most successful by far paragraph 

message: Flight 232: A Story of Disaster and Survival
by Laurence Gonzales is due out July 7, 2014.211.225.33.104 (talk) 08:48, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  New book 

message: It has been 26 years... Any update?--NewTypeDivision (talk) 14:01, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  26th Anniversary 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: We dont normally list notable survivors in aircraft accidents any reason why we should here? MilborneOne (talk) 16:44, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable survivors

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've proposed have a trivia,which will be put in a new note to make the article look clear.
"However, at the same time, the deaths make the crash the fifth-deadliest involving the DC-10 (behind Turkish Airlines Flight 981, American Airlines Flight 191, Air New Zealand Flight 901, and UTA Flight 772, and (at the time) was the deadliest crash in United Airlines' history. This was later surpassed in the September 11th attacks, when United Airlines Flight 175 was hijacked and deliberately crashed into the South Tower of the World Trade Center in New York City, killing all 65 people on board and an estimated 900 people in the South Tower."
It looks important, but it does look bloated, so I'm not sure if I will add it, but this trivia about DC-10's has been in other articles. Or If you have a trivia that's sounds less bloated, then post it in your response. I'm not going to add this until I get your thoughts. Don't worry, you may take your time. Tigerdude9 (talk) 14:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Current project thinking is that this "my accident is bigger than yours" stuff is not really needed or encyclopedic, it adds nothing to the article. A few exceptions to the most deadliest may be of note but the fifth blue-painted aircraft with yellow spots that crashed is not. MilborneOne (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok then. In that case, I won't add the trivia. But what is that blue-painted aircraft with yellow spots that crashed? Tigerdude9 (talk) 18:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Operated by Air Hyperbole MilborneOne (talk) 19:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wait, you said that the deadliest DC-10 crash should not be in the trivia, but United Airlines' deadliest crashes are those few exceptions? Or, if I misread it (I read closely about how the trivia is unnecessary, don't worry), then what are the exceptions? Tigerdude9 (talk) 13:52, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Exceptions are for example the worst accident for the type. MilborneOne (talk) 16:52, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well in that case, I'll say the same thing but remove the stuff about "and (at the time) [it] was the deadliest crash in United airlines' history" part. UPDATE 11/19/18: I have added it and I made sure it reaches your requirements. Tigerdude9 (talk) 16:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't that line be removed entirely? American 191 happened 10 years earlier and killed more people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191 104.33.210.101 (talk) 16:35, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I misread - "United Airlines" can easily be misread for "United States", because of which I would still argue to remove that line. 104.33.210.101 (talk) 16:38, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed trivia 

message: My theory on how it made that left hand turn towards Sioux City Gateway Airport, was that Dennis Fitch oriented the throttles in such a way that he was able to make a stable left hand turn with out stalling, specifically he put the N.3 engine in about a range of 75% to 85% thrust, and the N.1 in a thrust power level of 25% to near Idle, which in turn pushes the aircraft's right side up and makes it turn left. It probably was difficult for Dennis to make it happen but he managed to do it. Now this is just a theory, Dennis Fitch is dead so we will never know what he did to cause the left turn so if you have any theories put them up. I'd love to hear them.RaydenAG (talk) 14:19, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the Subject of the Mysterious left turn on the Flight track of UNITED 232 Heavy 

message: A lot of attention is paid to the cause of the loss of the engine, but the crash was the result of a total loss of hydraulics, and not enough attention is paid to the primary cause of the crash, particularly to include whatever government or regulatory measures have been taken (or not) to make certain something like this never happens again.  This sentence, in particular, is annoying:  Newer aircraft designs such as the McDonnell Douglas MD-11 have incorporated hydraulic fuses to isolate a punctured section and prevent a total loss of hydraulic fluid. It's very passive, as if the manufacturers have "done something different" and voluntarily, but the large gaping hole in this Article is if the NTSB (or whoever) made certain that this type of total loss of hydraulics in the DC-10 can ever happen again.  The interested Reader, and the interested flyer, want to know this.  They make "redundant systems" for reasons, and when three redundant systems all simultaneously fail, that's a much bigger problem than technical minutiae about metal fatigues and cracks.  It would improve the Article if more attention were paid to that which is most important, vs. that which is comparatively less important.  DC10's are still flying.  It would be nice to know if this problem of a total loss of Hydraulics has been taken care of proactively, and explicitly, particularly before you board one to fly somewhere.Tym Whittier (talk) 23:00, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  More and More Definitive Attention to the Loss of Hydraulics and Remediation 

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message: A discussion has been underway concerning the restored article Al Haynes that some may be interested in. Otr500 (talk) 23:40, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related AFD 

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message: This seems to attach special importance of people's deaths based upon financial status, and it seems like an irrelevant statistical element, so I recommend removing mention of first class passengers from this section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.49.211.216 (talk) 17:43, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the seating chart, I do find it striking that so many deaths were in first class compared to the rows behind them. It suggests something of general interest about the physical arrangement of the plane and/or seats, which only happens to be correlated to financial status. I wouldn't remove those notes but I wouldn't mind someone changing them to break it down by sections of the plane - if there is appropriate terminology that's just as clear. However "first class" may be the easiest and clearest distinction to make instead of more vague or arbitrary sounding terms like "front of plane" "first 4 rows" etc. -jerodast (talk) 03:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreeing with jerodast on this one. It seems clear to me that the intent was to demonstrate the disparity in the casualties, not attach importance to class. Perhaps there should be a bit more clarity in the article to show that? 167.248.90.96 (talk) 06:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: How does having a seat in first class somehow axiomatically correlate with socioeconomic status? Maybe a particular passenger used a frequent-flyer-miles upgrade. More likely, they were on a business trip and their company booked a full-fare, fully refundable coach seat that the passenger was able to parlay into a first-class upgrade (which I'll tell you is a thing that happens all the time). The fact that someone's job involves flying places at the last minute doesn't make them rich or distinguishable based on financial status; it just means that's what their job involves. This is a practically and logically indefensible train of thought. - Julietdeltalima (talk) 04:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Injuries and deaths" distinguishes those who were in first class