Talk:Creatine supplements

message: This article needs to list side effects, and sources for the list of side effects.
As is, this article would lead individuals to believe there are no side effects. This is not true. 
This is most likely due to Supplement companies contributing a lot of this article, most likely the ones named in the article.
Muscletech is notorious for trolling sites and forums attempting to better themselves and their overpriced products, regardless, within a week or so someone should post the well documented side effects of creatine, or I'll write up a list of the side effects mentioned in documents from the Mayo Clinic.
Chk this:
"Current studies indicate that short-term creatine supplementation in healthy individuals is safe (Robinson et al., 2000). Longer-term studies have occasionally been done, but have been small. One such study that is often cited involved a minimum length of 3 months, but only had 10 creatine subjects (Mayhew et al 2002)."
Robinson et al., 2000/Mayhew et al 2002 is not proper documentation for a wikipedia article. 
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.255.15.9 (talk) 15:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been well-documented that the many scientific studies of creatine have found no deleterious effects or medical risk, and in fact the only side effect from creatine supplementation reported in the scientific and medical literature has been weight gain. Negative side effects are generally isolated anecdotal reports. I don't see how the article is misleading or contains trolling. I'll leave you with this PDF  to read. Yankees76 22:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have any studies handy, but it has been my understanding (and personal experience) that using creatine monohydrate supplements can cause or worsen acne.  In a brief glance at various online message boards, this seems to be a fairly common side effect.  Worth mentioning in the article? KyuzoGator 18:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if it's referenced - try www.pubmed.com for any studies that detail side-effects. Frankg 19:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Your link goes nowhere?  There is no proof?  Does creatine supplementation have an effect on testosterone?  Qewr4231 (talk) 08:09, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Side Effects... For Real

message: This link  needs to be added to the list of references at the bottom of the article. If anyone spots any other studies cited that aren't at the bottom, please add them. Thanks. Yankees76 17:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Someone should add that Creatine is not an anabolic steroid and has no relation to anabolic steroids. This seems to be one of the most common misconceptions concerning creatine in the public that I know of. As absurd as it is. I think it atleast belongs here somewhere.
I agree with this opinion. I had the above misconception.
I found the following article to be an interesting source: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html .
Someone should add the key creatine arguments of about its use as a dietary supplement for research intrests.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.81 (talk) 01:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Someone should add...

message: Can anyone tell me, how long does it take to clear creatine from your system....i.e. can you take it for a brief period and get benefits but not have it show up on drug test for a college athlete. Does anyone know if it is forbidden by the NCAA rules?
:4-6 weeks, but it's not banned by the NCAA, so they're not testing for it. Yankees76 04:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure the question was referring to higher than natural levels acheived from supplementation. After stopping creatine supplementation, muscular creatine phosphate levels return to baseline in about 4 weeks, depending on the users diet and how much they are ingesting through natural sources. And a urine test will not show higher levels of creatine, it will show increased levels of creatinine. A blood test would be used to measure serum creatine. But thanks for your input, even if a bit misinformed. --Yankees76 (talk) 13:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clearance of Creatine and NCAA rules? 

message: The following sentence is unclear: At the time, low-potency creatine supplements were available in Britain, but creatine supplements designed for strength enhancement were not commercially available until 1993 when a company called Experimental and Applied Sciences (EAS) introduced the compound to the sports nutrition market under the name Phosphagen.
The "compound" was not creatine but creatine monohydrate.  If no objection, I would like to change the word "compound" to "creatine monohydrate".GetAnabolics 20:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Creatine Supplements 

message: I did a moderate re-work of the article, took out some POV stuff, unneeded details, product placement stuff, lots of citation templates.  Lemme know if people have any problems.  I also added a lead sentence, I can't think of what else to put in it.  WLU 14:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  re-work 

message: :Image:Phosphagen.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 09:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Phosphagen.jpg

message: From what people have said when they've been on this supplement, some of the side effects are diarrhea, head aches, cramping and aggression. Not too sure how I can list the reference, cause I read it in a magazine a while ago and don't know where it is nor the name of it, something 'health', 'Men's health'?! There is also the lack of study into the long term effects, mainly in the region of the kidneys. Well, thanks for the support Daily Rubbings 16:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Side Effects and Long Term

message: Whilst reading this article, I got the impression that this supplement is safe and there is no harm in taking this. Hopefully this can be balanced, I am unsure whether a banner should be stuck up for neutrality. It should be changed, in google, one of the most popular hits leads to here, and can be misleading for those doing heavy "research" into the matter. Oh please, why won't anyone think of the children? Try the fish, yum mercury, Daily Rubbings 16:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. There seems to be no true long-term (decades-long) safety studies. For example, its now known that coffee consumption over decades leads to dramatically reduced liver disease. For all we know, this is because the coffee is blocking naturally-occuring creatine damage to the liver. That creatine has undetectable adverse effects after a year or two is promising, but meaningless for those of us who plan to live more than a few years. linas 17:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing is completely safe, but I'd bet more people die each year from choking on spinach than taking creatine. There is only so much controversy worth spending the time to talk about. Frankg 03:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There aren't many long term studies used in the article that apply to the general population.  I agree to that.  I also agree with Frankg that maybe we are creating controversy where no controversy exists.  Creatine is designed for athletes to increase performance.  It's not really designed for other things.  Qewr4231 (talk) 22:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV of this article 

message: This should Be included in a criticism section where US Troops died with creatine intake during excersice  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.10.204.56 (talk) 20:16:25, August 19, 2007 (UTC) 
:Need a source.  WLU 00:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ban In US Military 

message: The article states that "In some countries, such as France, creatine is banned". I have not been able to find a reference to any country other than France which has ever banned creatine. And apparently consuming creatine has always been legal in France, you just had to get it from some other country. I have also seen recent references to people who now say creatine is readily available in France. Does anyone have the facts on this? Mmm (talk) 07:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some research is needed on this. France banned sales of creatine in the early 2000's (2002 I think) This 2006 article says it's "outlawed" in France and Ireland . Germany prohibits the sale of Creatine-Ethyl-Ester-HCl, Creatine-Alpha-Ketoglutarate Di/Tri-Creatine-Malate, Di/Tri-Creatine-Orotate, Tri-Creatine-HM-ß, Creatine-Pyruvate, Creatine-Ethyl-Ester(-Malate) to be sold, yet allows Creatine Monohydrate. --Quartet 14:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ban in France and elsewhere 

message: I'm a little disappointed that this article fails to discuss the well recognized research on the effects of Creatine use for people with Poly-Cystic Kidney Disease (PKD).  I recall researching Creatine a number of years ago and this was a common thread.  I tried Creatine for a while knowing this risk but then found out my father has PKD which gives my a 50% chance of having PKD...  Would hate to have not known of this risk.  Please see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11136170 Jponline77 (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  PKD and Creatine use 

message: The para that describes this looks like the author took a study that found one patient with increased compartmental pressure after supplementing AND working out, and extended this finding with an entire paragraph talking of the dire consequences of Chronic Compartment Syndrome and postulating that a number of creatine users may suffer lower leg pain.
This is clearly synthesis, and would welcome suggestions on how to make this more scientific and accurate. HelpnWP (talk) 02:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synthesis in "Chronic Compartment Syndrome" 

message: Hi
i added some stuff, citing the following site as a reference. the site seems reliable to me. does anyone have an idea on how to check its reliability? or how to underline the fact that i'm not 100% sure about it being reliable?
http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Supplements/Creatine.html
Gregie156 (talk) 10:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious Reference 

message: I have been looking througth the articles and can not find anything about what is usually made from: f. ex. slaugtherhouse waste, fish or such.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.220.102.171 (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the above. Creatine is synthetically produced by the manufacturing of 2 chemicals – sarcosine, which is a sodium salt and derivative of acetic acid, and cyanamide. Reacting the chemicals sarcosine with cyanamide in a specific amount of water, inside a glass-lined filled vessel is how it's made. --Yankees76 (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is creatine made from? 

message: These two articles contradict each other as to whether supplementation has diarrhea and muscle cramps as side effects:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine#Supplements:
===Side effects===
* ...
* Potential muscle cramps / strains / pulls
* ...
* Diarrhea
* ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine#Supplements (emphasis mine):
A 2009 systematic review discredited concerns that creatine supplementation could affect hydration status and heat tolerance and lead to muscle cramping and diarrhea.
I don't know which is "true," but obviously, the disagreement is confusing.
Jamiejackson (talk) 18:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Side Effects -- Consistency among Articles 

message: * ...
* Potential muscle cramps / strains / pulls
* ...
* Diarrhea
* ...
</blockquote>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine#Supplements (emphasis mine):
A 2009 systematic review discredited concerns that creatine supplementation could affect hydration status and heat tolerance and lead to muscle cramping and diarrhea.
I don't know which is "true," but obviously, the disagreement is confusing.
Jamiejackson (talk) 18:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Side effects

message: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4469200/
A study on ethyl ester claiming the opposite of what the article says Meel11223 (talk) 13:33, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ethyl ester 

message: Hello everyone,
I added content to "Uses," added citations and content to "Side Effects," and added a "Supplementation Protocol" section. Please review my edits for errors and content!
Thanks!!!
Uses:
A survey of 21,000 college athletes showed that 14% of athletes take creatine supplements to improve performance. Non-athletes report taking creatine supplements to improve appearance. There is little data to show that taking creatine supplements without exercise improves performance. One study observed that increases in maximum leg press strength were comparable between groups with creatine supplementation without resistant training and the resistance training with a placebo; however, the increase in strength was over five times greater for the combined creatine supplementation and resistant training group. Therefore, it is unclear whether creatine supplementation without exercise can considerably change performance or appearance. However, studies have shown that creatine supplementation can preserve lean tissue mass, strength, and endurance, minimizing muscle atrophy in patients with immobilized upper limbs.
Side-effects:
Weight gain due to extra water retention to the muscle
The International Society of Sports Nutrition recommends that high school athletes take creatine only if they are past puberty, eating a well-balanced, performance-enhancing diet, and is involved in serious competitive training.
Researchers have proposed that higher serum levels of creatine may be associated with stress on the kidneys, but it has been shown that athletes, regardless of whether they were CM users have higher serum levels of creatine. This suggests, that having higher creatine serum levels does not imply stress on the kidneys.
--— Preceding unsigned comment added by 13:16, 8 May 2018 (talk • contribs) BetaEdits (UTC)
:You have a mix of unsourced and sourced content. Some of the sources are not OK per MEDRS.  Please don't use primary sources. (See WP:MEDDEF for definitions of "primary" and "secondary" sources) Jytdog (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  New content 

message: Various supplementation protocols have been studied and proven effective at increasing intramuscular concentrations of creatine. The most common protocol called the "loading" protocol involves consuming 0.3 grams/kg/day of creatine monophosphate (CM) for 5 – 7 days and then a maintenance dose of 3–5 grams/day as long as desired. For example, a 100 kg weightlifter may consume 30 grams of CM per day (say, 7.5 g taken four times per day) for 7 days and then 3-5 grams/day thereafter. This "loading" protocol is reported in the literature to increase muscle creatine concentrations by 10-40%. Other loading protocol studies observed that taking CM supplements with protein or carbohydrates or both can not only reduce the duration of the loading stage but also increase muscle creatine concentrations. One study reported a 60% increase in muscle creatine concentrations when  5 g creatine supplements were combined with a 93 g of carbohydrates. Another effective supplementation protocol called "cycling" involves re-loading every 3 to 4 weeks with the traditional loading dosage for 3-5 days. Without this re-loading, creatine levels can drop to basal levels after a period of 4-6 weeks. Other studies observed that ergogenic effects can be achieved without the loading phase. However, the concentration of muscle creatine may increase more slowly as compared with the loading protocol.
Uses:
A survey of 21,000 college athletes showed that 14% of athletes take creatine supplements to improve performance. Non-athletes report taking creatine supplements to improve appearance. There is little data to show that taking creatine supplements without exercise improves performance. One study observed that increases in maximum leg press strength were comparable between groups with creatine supplementation without resistant training and the resistance training with a placebo; however, the increase in strength was over five times greater for the combined creatine supplementation and resistant training group. Therefore, it is unclear whether creatine supplementation without exercise can considerably change performance or appearance. However, studies have shown that creatine supplementation can preserve lean tissue mass, strength, and endurance, minimizing muscle atrophy in patients with immobilized upper limbs.
Side-effects:
Weight gain due to extra water retention to the muscle
The International Society of Sports Nutrition recommends that high school athletes take creatine only if they are past puberty, eating a well-balanced, performance-enhancing diet, and is involved in serious competitive training.
Researchers have proposed that higher serum levels of creatine may be associated with stress on the kidneys, but it has been shown that athletes, regardless of whether they were CM users have higher serum levels of creatine. This suggests, that having higher creatine serum levels does not imply stress on the kidneys.
--BetaEdits (talk) 12:51, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The only source that you cited there was a primary source, which is not OK per WP:MEDRS.  We also don't discuss dosing per WP:MEDMOS per WP:NOTHOWTO and this comes pretty close to giving advice.  Jytdog (talk) 14:22, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Supplementation Protocol 

message: I merged this page back to Creatine. This had been split out from that page, away back in 2007.  In the ensuing 11 years the creatine article blew up to recreate the supplement content there, and the articles developed independently, saying different, partial, and inconsistent things. They also each became shot through with bad content including blatant spam.  
I left a similar message on the supplement talk page.
If folks want to discuss a resplit that is fine, but we would have to be careful not to let that happen again.  Please discuss there, if you want to discuss a new WP:SPLIT. Jytdog (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note - merging back