Talk:Lambda Upsilon Lambda

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/history/story/#.VUD_miFViko. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Rubbish computer (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://web.archive.org/web/20050104091437/http://www.launidadlatina.org/. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:50, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This page has been a copyright violation since . I hope it's now completely clear from the changes to the article and the notices on this page that copyright material may not be added to Wikipedia. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:50, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: === Notable Members ===
De la vega is no longer a member.,http://www.launidadlatina.org/membership/disaffiliated-members/ please remove.
=== Infobox Edits ===
Official color for brown is Pantone 1545c. Official color for gold is Pantone 124c.
Official crest is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By4X0S5UZhxoSnBmSS0xdmtEZ1U/view?usp=sharing (slight difference from current one on the page).
Hermanos is not a nickname, it simply means Brother in Spanish. Please remove from nickname section.
=== Name ===
Official name of organization is "La Unidad Latina, Lambda Upsilon Lambda Fraternity, Inc.". See bottom of homepagehttp://www.launidadlatina.org/
=== Article ===
Proposed change to header paragraph:
La Unidad Latina, Lambda Upsilon Lambda Fraternity, Inc. (ΛΥΛ or LUL) is a collegiate non-profit social fraternity. It was founded at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York on February 19th, 1982http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/history/story/, and has 66 undergraduate chaptershttp://www.launidadlatina.org/membership/chapters/undergraduate-chapters/ and 14 graduate professional chaptershttp://www.launidadlatina.org/membership/chapters/professional-chapters/ in universities and cities across the United States.
Lambda Upsilon Lambda was the first Latino fraternity to be chartered at an Ivy League institution.http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/lambda-facts/ It is also the only Latino fraternity to be chartered at all 8 Ivy Leagues.http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/lambda-facts/ While founded on Latino principles, Lambda Upsilon Lambda has been open to men of all races since its inception.http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/lambda-facts/
104.129.204.49 (talk) 16:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Edits 

message: Proposed change to header paragraph:
La Unidad Latina, Lambda Upsilon Lambda Fraternity, Inc. (ΛΥΛ or LUL) is a collegiate non-profit social fraternity. It was founded at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York on February 19th, 1982http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/history/story/, and has 66 undergraduate chaptershttp://www.launidadlatina.org/membership/chapters/undergraduate-chapters/ and 14 graduate professional chaptershttp://www.launidadlatina.org/membership/chapters/professional-chapters/ in universities and cities across the United States.
Lambda Upsilon Lambda was the first Latino fraternity to be chartered at an Ivy League institution.http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/lambda-facts/ It is also the only Latino fraternity to be chartered at all 8 Ivy Leagues.http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/lambda-facts/ While founded on Latino principles, Lambda Upsilon Lambda has been open to men of all races since its inception.http://www.launidadlatina.org/about-lul/lambda-facts/
104.129.204.49 (talk) 16:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article 

message: An edit war has been brewing over this article over several days, at this writing.  Thankfully, an administrator placed a Disruptive Editing block on the article, but while this may cool some edits, it may not resolve the problem.
At issue is whether supporters can remove sourced paragraphs relating to symbolism, and information noting the closure of the Fraternity's Epsilon chapter.  It would be preferable to hash this out here on the Talk page, to reach consensus.
As a longstanding participant in the Fraternity and Sorority Project, my view is that these Fraternity and Sorority articles should list notable symbols in the infobox, and body text ought to, within reason, elaborate on them further. Such articles have no need for an extensive treatise on the nuances of such symbolism and instead should to point to sources for additional reading. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, thus we provide a summary, not the sum total of information about these subjects.  Here, the fact of pre-Columbian symbolism, colors and themes is interesting to the casual reader, and useful in introducing a reader to the style, manner, history and culture of the Fraternity.  If a symbol is visible on the crest or flag, it is reasonable to talk about it in a summary form.  However, in the rare instance that someone publishes copyrighted or esoteric material, i.e.: ritual language, those items may be deleted.  They would constitute unnecessary detail, would possibly open Wikipedia to copyright liability, and are unnecessary for a summary understanding. By including them an editor's actions may constitute bullying.
Now, Wikipedia is not censored.  "Inconvenient facts", such as "Lambda Upsilon Lambda has adopted pre-Columbian symbolism on its crest and throughout its organization structure and program.  Examples include... (with citations)" --This would be fine.  The closure of a chapter, or chapter or member misconduct that lands in the courts or university jurisprudence, and is reported on in reliable sources, these situations are valid to discuss.  But I urge editors to stay within the rails: an article about a 100-yr old national, with 100 chapters ought not be focused on a single-chapter, one-time incident.  This would run afoul of Wikipedia's principle of Balance.  The way we often handle these 'chapter issues' is by mentioning that a chapter is dormant in a chapter list, and noting the reason for it in a reference citation or extended footnote (EFN).  Again, aiming for balance. Jax MN (talk) 21:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you referring to the same issue that's happening right now? ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 20:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, what a mess. I appreciate the efforts of other editors to keep some of the discussion about the symbolism.  I've not had time to dig into the citations, but others have said LUL is not named in some of them; I see several citations are therefore being questioned for validity.  A short exposition on what some of these symbols means, in general terms, would be useful and encyclopedic.  The effort to delete these sections, IMHO, is misplaced. Jax MN (talk) 06:50, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:   As noted in the section below, the meaning of the symbols as intended by their pre-Columbian creators is not the point here. The point is whether those meanings were intended to be associated with LUL when it picked its iconography. There does not seem to be a reliable source that can make that connection. While it is likely to be the case, we can't go on likely assumptions. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Their inclusion, then, may have hit close to the mark, and therefore appears viewed by the group as an "exposure".  I'd favor a brief, one-line description of what those symbols traditionally mean, with WLs to longer articles about the symbols themselves.  (Thus separate from the fraternity article.) Especially where none of the offered citations make such linkage, no more detailed of a description is warranted.  If indeed, the more detailed descriptions of the pre-Columbian symbols has been incorporated into the fraternity's esoteric work (~secrets) and iconography, then adding it here smacks of WP:OR, and should also be removed. Jax MN (talk) 15:36, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:   I still have to disagree. The argument being made is that because some non-official sources (this twitter account of one of their chapters, and this unaffiliated site that sells "Greek stuff") include images that resembler this piece of pre-Columbian jewelry, then LUL . The conclusion is not drawn out by the sources. The current LUL website does not include this image, although it does use a similar image as its "fraternal symbol". If LUL make any associations between its symbols and any existing symbols, they are not being public about it, and that is their right. I don't believe that we at Wikipedia have any basis to say anything about the matter without straying into original research. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi Dan.  For the Fraternity pages, we normally include a list of each group's apparent symbols in the infobox, sometimes with WLs to articles that describe their standard iconography, sometimes not. In decades past, the Baird's reference book would list these, but that reference does not include Lambda Upsilon Lambda, as a more recently formed organization.  The extent to which I would allow body text describing the symbols is simply to note the fact of their unique (or relatively unique) usage by this group, and cite the standard meaning of such iconography, and whether or not the fraternity provides a public explanation of its symbols -  in this case, not. I agree with you that body text that is unsupported by references would likely be OR, and thus subject to deletion.  Twitter isn't a RS, so that reference, at least, shouldn't be used.  As to the edit war, I am providing a contextual statement here, and am not participating in the editing of the page.  I want pages of this category to be consistent. Jax MN (talk) 18:26, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:   The problem, as I see it, is that there is only scant circumstantial evidence to point to the group's "apparent symbols". The official website has only a symbol that vaguely resembles the original pre-Columbian imagery. It may be common on Wiki pages about fraternal organizations to try to explain their symbology, but I believe that is a poor practice unless reliable sources are available. I would discourage the widespread practice of inserting WP:SYNTH into Wikipedia. I believe that you and I are not going to come to agreement here. I'll leave the discussion to others. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:44, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war, October 2022 

message: I'm inclined to agree with  on removal of this material. The sources used to cite the pre-Columbian sources of LUL's iconography do not actually mention LUL. The articles contain images of pre-Columbian art, or images of LUL iconography, and the editor (or editors) who added the material have engaged in original research to connect the two. Without a reliable source indicating that LUL has specifically (and publicly) chosen this pre-Columbian iconography and its associated meanings, we really should not include the information.
:  Inviting you to this discussion as well. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:34, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only sources in that section that mention the fraternity are this one, which amounts to a photo of their patch, and this one, that references a song associated with the group. The rest seems to be very WP:SYNTHy to me. OhNoitsJamie Talk 21:46, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd like to remove it if no one objects. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 00:02, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello all, the symbolism section of this article should be removed. As others have stated, it is an assumption made without a source. La Unidad Latina does NOT make mention of Pre-Colombian imagery or symbolism anywhere on their websites. Sure, the symbols are similar in appearance but that does not mean they are derived from any specific civilization or myth. There is no source associates LUL any Colombian civilization as the article mentions. This is making FALSE claims about the fraternity and can affect those seeking membership. Anon95201 (talk) 15:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research regarding pre-Columbian iconography 

message: remove symbolism. this is not information relating to this organization. Anon95201 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: per discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:13, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2022