Talk:Felix the Cat

message: Earlier versions of this article included the claim
:At the height of Felix's fame in 1925, an estimated three-quarters of the world's population could recognize him
It would be nice if this could be verified.
It is hard to credit, but it is possible that a neutral, non-talking, cartoon character would be reproduced and distributed world wide. Cinema was available in China and India in the 1920s, but was it only in the cities or were there travelling cinema that could have taken Felix to the majority of the rural population? -- Solipsist 07:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I was the one who wrote that, and it was based on something from one of my animation books. Unfortunately, I'm in Africa at the moment and have no access to said resources. I will say that I can believe it -- I'm in Cameroon, and every little kid here knows the images of Bugs Bunny and Bart Simpson, though if you ask who these characters are, most can't tell you. Amcaja 11:33, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this is old, but I thought I'd chip in anyway. Animator Payut Ngaokrachang saw Felix cartoons when he was growing up in 1930s Thailand (then Siam), so the influence of Felix and his ability to reach audiences in many parts of the world seems to be documented.Wisekwai 19:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 3/4 world claim

message: Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat links back to the same page. Remove redirect and allow Twisted Tales to be a separate page? Chris Wood 13:15, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Made it into a not-so-stubby stub. Noel (talk) 13:19, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Twisted tales self-redirect? 

message: I decided to contribute a bit to the Wikipedia Felix page.  I've added three new images from classic Messmer Felix shorts and some historical information under the "Sound to Silent" section that needed to be fixed.  I also pepped up the titles of each section.  I hope you don't mind.
- Pietro, GoldenAgeCartoons.com
:Nice contributions - thanks. You will probably find several other articles on early cartoons that could use some help as well. I've also shuffled the pictures around a bit. I think it is a good idea if the lead image gives a good view of Felix himself; the title screen with Pat Sulivan's name on it seems best associated with the creation dispute section; and it seems quite nice to keep the technicolor frame even if this isn't typical of Felix's appearances. The main downside is that the images don't appear chronologically, but as several of the images are from 1922/23 that's difficult to achieve anyway. -- Solipsist 14:40, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks fine to me, although the new images need source, attribution and copyright information. I would imagine they should mostly be tagged . -- Solipsist 08:15, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Even better - and now they are tagged that is excellent. -- Solipsist 06:44, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Felix Images 

message: I just removed this line: "In 1991, Felix appeared in his second television series, called The Original Adventures of Felix the Cat." I can't find any reference to this on IMDB, but I didn't search too thoroughly. Is this a real series? If so, it should go back into the article. Amcaja 01:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In all my time of researching, I have never heard of such a series.  It was never mentioned in the Canemaker book nor was it even mentioned in Jeff Lenburg's Encyclopedia of Animated Cartoons.  Pietro 19:59, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The same anonymous contributor has added the information back in on numerous occasions, but I suspect its just malicious vandalism. All we can do is keep the article on our watchlists and revert when necessary. --Amcaja 23:09, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''The Original Adventures of Felix the Cat'' 

message: Please voice your views on the "Creation" section as it stands now. - Pietro Shakarian 14:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What was wrong with this version? —Amcaja 15:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I meant to link this version. —Amcaja 15:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I think I've finally cleaned up the controversial material in the "Creation" section. "Thomas Kat" is brought up in the second paragraph because many are still not sure that "Kat" was the first Felix cartoon.  Whether Sullivan or Messmer created Felix, I'm sure everybody can agree that "Feline Follies" was the short that really launched the series.  For the record, I know for a fact that there were no other cartoons made between "Kat" and "Follies" that involved any other potential Felix precursors. - Pietro Shakarian 17:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I know nothing about who originally created the character, but from a general style perspective it seems best to start the section with a discussion of the first defining film (apparently "Feline Follies" of 1919). Then move on to a discussion of the competing sides of the controversy with comment on any of the earlier contenders, such as "The Tail of Thomas Kat", as part of that discussion. The current version seems to do this well and partially cites sources for the stated opinions (although I'm not too convinced that an ABC-TV documentary is a particularly reliable source - is there not a better one?). -- Solipsist 17:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: John Canemaker's book and recent research uncovered by animation historian David Gerstein (who I co-maintain the Classic Felix page with on GoldenAgeCartoons.com) are both very reliable sources.  They both point to Messmer as the cat's creator.  Other notable American animation historians such as Jerry Beck, Michael Barrier, Mark Kausler, Milt Gray, Donald Crafton, Cole Johnson, and even Jeff Lenburg draw the same conclusion.  Despite this, there is (and probably will be) dispute on the character's creation.  - Pietro Shakarian 18:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, Charles Solomon supports Messmer as well. Not sure about Maltin. As for the current revision, it looks pretty good. I would remove the line about Sullivan's estate suing people, though. The line seems to imply that Sullivan and his heirs tried to cover up Felix's true creator. That may be true, but implying as much is POV. —Amcaja 18:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Also, I just checked Of Mice and Magic and Maltin supports Messmer's claim too. - Pietro Shakarian 18:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I have four main objections to the present wording of the "Creation" section. First of all, a full-rounded cartoon character is a character, i.e. the product (in part) of writing in addition to drawing. Therefore it is not necessarily the product of one animator; it may instead be primarily the product of one or more scriptwriters (witness the decline of Asterix after Goscinny died). And while we're on the subject, who were Felix's scriptwriters? Alternately, a cartoon character may be considered to have been the product of an auteur like Disney (who, as Canemaker admits, did not do much drawing either). Or it may be a collective effort. A viewpoint on Felix by someone from an animation perspective will tend to be overly biased against Sullivan.  Second, none of us knows what Thomas Kat looked like. Therefore any speculation on Messmer's contribution to his appearance is just that, i.e. speculation on his appearance. It seems bizarre to associate Messmer with the "familiar black body" and say "he found solid shapes easier to animate" and then add as an afterthought: "The fur color of the earlier Thomas Kat has not been definitively established."  Third, the transcript of the ABC-TV documentary, (which was linked in the article until some kind soul removed it), uses interviews to present a balanced argument. It draws attention to the facts that no one challenged Sullivan's ownership until 34 years (count 'em) after his death and the fact that Canemaker (et al) have overlooked Thomas Kat. It does not "state outright that "Thomas Kat" was an even earlier Felix prototype". Fourth, was Sullivan's estate actually people in Australia? I don't know, and I haven't been able to find out one way or another, which is why I deleted that statement. Grant65 | Talk 00:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The stories of the Felix shorts were not scripted, nor were they storyboarded.  Rather, they were drawn out by the animators.  That is, the animators would come up with the situations as they animated the short.  This is how most animation studios in the 1920s worked.  When the phrases "familiar black body" and "he found solid shapes easier to animate" come up in the text, they aren't referring to "Thomas Kat", rather they are referring to Master Tom of "Feline Follies".  Perhaps it would make more sense to move the subsequent line about "Thomas Kat" from the fourth paragraph to the second?  The Sullivan estate was indeed in Australia.  I replaced "stated outright" with "suggested" in reference to the ABC documentary and I restored the ABC link. I appreciate you specifically sounding off your concerns with my edits and I'm always open to new ideas on how the Wiki Felix article could be improved.  I do hope we can work something out.  Thanks! - Pietro Shakarian 01:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, Grant.  I do appreciate your contributions to the Felix Creation section, but I feel the wording of the last paragraph is just fine.  Also, there is no connection between Krazy and Felix (save for the Winkler Krazy shorts which began in 1925 under former Sullivan staffer, Bill Nolan).  Whoever created Felix, whether it be Sullivan or Messmer, I'm almost positive that they would have not inspired by Krazy.  The personality and mannerisms of both characters are very different.  It is a nice thought, but there really isn't much fact behind it. -- Pietro Shakarian 23:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creation dispute 

message: Is there anywhere we could re-insert a mention of Inky and Winky, Kitty, and Skiddoo? —Amcaja 20:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we could mention them in the "Unprecedented popularity" section (maybe to start off the fifth paragraph), stating that since Felix was so successful, the Sullivan crew decided to introduce more characters into the series, etc. - Pietro Shakarian 20:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silent-era costars 

message: [Moved from middle of page]
------------------------
Please discuss the changes you wish to make to the Felix the Cat page on the talk page. If you continue to revert without explanation, I will consider it vandalism, which could lead to a block. Consider this a warning. —Amcaja 00:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary, when that picture is unverified, unsourced, and lacks copyright information, it can most certainly be considered such. I repeat: Please discuss this. Why do you prefer this picture? Where did you get it? —Amcaja 12:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me add: Your behavior earlier marked you as a vandal: You were repeatedly changing the page to an image of questionable copyright and ignoring requests that you discuss first. However, the fact that you have posted here leads me to believe that your changes are being made in good faith and are not intended to "compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia". Still, I urge you to discuss this. Two editors have disagreed with your addition of the poster. Convince us it should be there. —Amcaja 12:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Felix images

message: We need to cite all those animation historians in the References section if we're going to say that they support Messmer in the creation dispute. Likewise, the Sullivan quote should be cited. — Amcaja 23:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animation historians 

message: Simply quoting a few lines from the song falls easily into fair use, so I reverted the recent cut. — Amcaja 13:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Song lyrics 

message: According to http://www.earlytelevision.org/felix.html , the Felix doll used for early television tests was made out of wood, not papier mache, as it states here. --Jeremy Butler 19:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Papier Mache or Wood? 

message: Is the character already in the public domain? --Error 01:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Public domain

message: Why isn't anything mentioned about the banned episode of Felix floating around Youtube?
:Who banned it? Do you have proof that it is banned? The fact, though, is that Felix cartoons are not regularly shown in theatres nor on television, so they're all out of distribution. The fact that some random user labeled one cartoon as "banned" and stuck it on Youtube doesn't seem all that relevant here. — Amcaja 12:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Banned Episode?

message: I removed:
:Felix has also been adopted as the official mascot for the British Army Bomb Disposal unit in Northern Ireland, 321 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron. They adopted Felix as a mascot due to his 9 lives and ability to get out of scrapes with his bag of tricks - which was not unlike the early bomb disposal operators. The Squadron is the most highly decorated unit in the British Army despite being less than 100 strong. However, since 1969 there have been 20 operators killed by terrorist bombs in Northern Ireland and Felix has become an iconic figure throughout the Province. The original Felix cartoon has since been redrawn by the Squadron and the insignia it uses is now quite different, but it's heart and soul lies with the original upbeat, loveable cartoon cat.
This needs both a source citation and a serious copy edit to remove the extraneous, off-topic information. Pending these, I place it here. — Amcaja 22:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  321 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron 

message: I'm going to go ahead and begin adding inline citations to this article to keep it up to the current standards of WP:FAC. I don't own all of the books listed in the References section, so help from others monitoring this article would be much appreciated. — Amcaja 01:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inline citations 

message: I'm not sure when or where, but is it true that Felix the Cat was the first cartoon ever made?
Pece Kocovski 06:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there were several cartoons that preceded any of Felix's outings. See, for example, Gertie the Dinosaur. — Amcaja 09:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Cartoon? 

message: I believe this article should mention the famous Kit Cat Klock, which is apparently based off of Felix's character. I was going to make it a separate article, but I think it would be better as a section here instead as a stub on it's own. If anyone wants to write up about it, put on :Image:Kit Cat Klock.jpg too, a picture of my clock which I made public domain. -- Reaper  X 04:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Felix: The Kit Cat Klock

message: Isn't Felix famous for a catchphrase... Zzzzap! Shouldn't that be mentioned in the article? 
--158.234.250.71 16:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catchphrase 

message: Can we have citations for the new information that was added today? I'll leave it be for now, but without source citations, it will be removed. -- Amcaja 02:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New info 

message: Paul Whiteman was a band leader ("Paul Whiteman and his Orchestra") not a singer. Look up the Wikipedia. His band did do a song in the 20's called "Felix the Cat". I have a copy of it as it features jazz great Bix Biederbex. There's a lot of meowing on the disc by the band so maybe Mr Whiteman did one of his few vocals on that cut. The best known Felix songs would be the TV Theme and the 1923 song "Felix Kept on Walking" (Words: Ed. E.Bryant/Music Hubert W. David). A hit in England during the Twenties.
Matthew Bateman-Graham 124.168.65.93 10:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Paul Whiteman

message: The article is misleading in suggesting felix as an influence on Krazy Kat, animation or otherwise. The newspaper strip was highly successful and influential from its inception in 1913, the influence on Felix would more likely be true. Nice article otherwise - deserves to be FA. ☻ Fred|☝ discussion|✍  contributions 19:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is ancient by Wikipedia standards, and it was granted FA almost four years ago, so there are doubless some statements that need updating or sourcing. Unfortunately, my books are all in America (and I am not), so I can't help on that front. However, if you have references and can help out, please be bold and do so. The Krazy/Felix connection might be one place to start! :) — Amcaja (talk) 22:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Krazy 

message: From what I've read, Felix was originally a comic created by Messmer. If anyone could find some evidence of this I think it might settle the dispute of who is Felix's creator, based on comic dates and such. Or at least who the origianl comic artist was that all the felix cartoons are based off.
:-_____-; did you even read the article? The entire first section covers that issue, and there are even a few in-line references you can check out. And as for Messmer being the creator: Sullivan came up with the original concept pf Felix the Cat, and thus created him. Messmer was later put more-or-less 'in charge' later on, and is responsible for the evolution of Felix's personality, but Felix is still Sullivan's creation. To quote from http://www.abc.net.au/tv/rewind/txt/s1229985.htm:
::
:--Marshmello 20:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  question of origin 

message: The intro makes mention of "a redesigned, 'long-legged' Felix".  It would be nice if there were a picture of long-legged Felix somewhere in the article (or if one of the pictures in the article *is* long-legged Felix, that pic could be referenced as such).Originalname37 10:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "long-legged" Felix 

message: I am suggesting that Poindexter be merged to Felix the Cat and that the page be redirected to Poindexter (disambiguation).  This is partially based on Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) and partially based on the list of notable people at Poindexter (disambiguation) that include an Astronaut, a Admirals and a Governor. Jeepday (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge Poindexter

message: :Image:Tv-felix.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 02:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Tv-felix.jpg

message: :Image:Felix-canemaker.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 19:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Felix-canemaker.jpg

message: thhis cartoon was on LSD paper  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.107.113 (talk) 07:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: felix the cat on LSD blotter paper

message: Someone keeps adding things about a Live-action/animated film called Felix the Cat to be released in 2012. I've removed it about 4 times now from this page and from the Felix the Cat template; I have not seen anything confirming this. Can anyone confirm something about a supposed movie coming out, or can we get this article and the template at the bottom protected from IP's so this guy goes away? --jonrev (talk) 06:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  2012 Movie 

message: Are there "Felix the Cat"-references in the movie Batman Returns or is it just a very big coincidence, that there are "Felix the Cat"-lookalike clocks on the outside and faces on the shop-windows? --93.135.50.219 (talk) 17:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Most likely a coincidence, if there were any hidden cartoon references I'm sure it would've been Looney Tunes characters (Batman Returns and the Looney Tunes are both owned by Warner Brothers).--jonrev (talk) 07:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman Returns 

message: I see the words "It is believed that Naoto Ōshima looked to Felix the Cat as inspiration for the design of Sonic the Hedgehog."
WHO believes it and why? Without any evidence straight from the horse's mouth, I would myself be FAR more inclined to believe that Sonic's character inspiration came from the Tazmanian Devil. They both share the conjoined eyes, and ol' Taz is famous for nothing else than moving so fast as to resemble a living tornado that annihilated even trees in his path.
174.25.84.93 (talk) 18:21, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  weasel words in cultural legacy 

message: Who voiced Felix in 1930s? Was it Mae Questel as article was saying a while ago or Walter Tetley as i see now? No citation on both! --Igel B TyMaHe (talk) 16:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Most probably Walter Tetley. A number sources say so. 99.9.158.56 (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voice of Felix 

message: How is it that the editors of this page are so bias towards the lies of Otto Messmer & John cainmaker. ? 
How is it that Cainmaker & otto messmer can lie & claim that Otto Messmer created Felix the cat, & wikipedia just goes along with these lies. .... Only After Pat Sullivan died did Cainmaker & Messmer lay claim to Otto messmers creation of Felix the cat. 
& to claims their claim' thay claim ( without any proof ) That the 1919 Felin follies film was created by Otto Messmer & not Pat Sullivan. 
Messmer & Cainmaker claim that because otto messmer claims he drew the animation for the very first felix film ( felin follies ) that is proff that Messmer was the creator of felix the cat. .... 
& then .... & only after Australian animation historians disputed John Cainmakers' & Otto Messmers Claims lies. Lies that claim otto Messmer created Felix in the year 1919. & a claim that whats us all to believe pat Sullivan had nothing to do with the creation of felix the cat. .... Then several Animation historians ( Who support Pat Sullivans century old unchallenged ( while he was alive ) claim to be the creator of felix the cat. & after Pat Sullivan was long dead did Otto Messmer & John Cainmaker make their trumped up claim that Otto Messmer created Felix the cat in 1919 when the film feline follies was made. 
Otto Messmer & John Cainmaker claim that Otto Messmer created felix the cat when in 1919 Otto Messmer created the first Felix the cat film in Feline follies in 1919. 
Fact 1: Otto messmer has been exposed as a fake. 
How did Otto messmer create the very first Felix the cat film in 1919, When the Supporters of Pat sullivan proved that the first Felix the cat film was made in 1917, by Pat Sullivan & copyright & trademarked by pat sullivan in 1917. ( evident by the US library of congress documentation )   
Fact 2: In 1917 Pat sullivan was in the USA as he served a six month prison sentence in the USA, While Otto Messmer was drafted into the army & was not even in the USA between 1917 & 1919. As evident by his U.S., World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918  
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=MIL_DRAFT&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=Steve&gsln=Messmer&msdpn__ftp=WA&so=2&geo_a=r&geo_s=us&geo_t=us&o_xid=62916&o_lid=62916&o_sch=Partners
Also ... An unemployed 23 year old' Otto Messmer was drafted into world war 1 in 1917 & did not return to the USA until late 1919.
In late 1917 Pat Sullivan was released from a U.S jail & made the 1917 film ( tail of Thomas the cat 1917 ) While Otto Messmer would be in Europe throughout 1917-1919.
Felix the cat was an evolution of the pat Sullivan creation' felix the cat/Thomas the cat character. & As is the case with all animation. ... E.G Micky mouse started off as steam boat willy, & Smithers from the Simpons started of as a straight black man.  It's called Character evolution. 
Pat Sullivan created Felix the cat, Pat Sullivan had the original idea, Pat sullivan Draw & filmed the 1917 film the tails of Thomas the cat. 
Many more Animators & Historians support Pat Sullivans ownership Than there are supports for the lies of John cainmaker & Otto Messmer. 
Fact, John Cainmaker & Otto Messmer are yet to provide any explanation ( while they where alive or from beyond the grave ) as to how they explain the fact that Otto Messmer & John cainmaker have claimed that Otto messmer created felix the cat in the 1919 film feline follies. ( with the un-named cat in feline follies )  Yet Pat Sullivan has already made an earlier 1917 film that both Otto Messmer & John cainmaker where unaware of. How do they account for the 1917 film & it's impact on Otto mesmer & cainmakers claim that messmer created felix the cat in the 1919 film?
LINDSAY FOYLE: Messmer never made the claim that he'd created Felix...until 1967, which was 34 years after Sullivan was dead and long after everybody else that worked in the studio was dead. So you know, anybody can make a claim back then.
How does/did Otto Messmer & john cainmaker explain the changers to their story AFTER the discovery of the 1917 pat Sullivan film? 
JUDY NELSON: I did write away to the Library of Congress wanting to find out the earliest films they had records of. And the copyright office sent me this record here. The film is called 'The Tail of Thomas Kat', 1917. It was half a reel of film, and they actually give a date - 3 March 1917 was when it was registered for copyright in Pat Sullivan's name.
CHRISTOPHER ZINN: Importantly, the Library of Congress document confirms Sullivan's ownership of the film. It premiered many of the cat's trademark characteristics like his removable tail, which would become a feature of Felix three years later.
JUDY NELSON: So to me, that's perfect proof. They just didn't know about that, otherwise they would've taken over possession of that information. 
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/rewind/txt/s1229985.htm  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.251.181 (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  To many Messmer assumptions & erroneous facts in article.  

message: Pat Sullivan created Felix the Cat & there is much historical proof to back that up. ... The article even mentions the the first Felix the cat film came out in 1919. Yet there is also a 1917 movie in the library of congress by Pat Sullivan with Pat Sullivan copyright dated 1917.
Otto Messmer claims he invented Felix the cat in 1919. yet both he & John Cainmaker have been unable to explain how, Two years before Otto Messmer claims he create Felix the cat, Pat Sullivan Created, Drew & Filmed the 1917 film. The !917 film is a felix the cat film ... John Cainmaker claims that the cat in the earlier 1917 film is not felix because that cat loses his tail & never gets it back, H
( Funny ) .. John cainmaker is grasping at straws ..... Nowhere in the 1917 film does it say that the cat will never get its tail back.
For example ... In the cartoon' southpark. kenny dies in every episode .... yet know-where does it say he will comeback to life in the next episode. ( & yet he does) It's a cartoon .... 
If all Otto Messmer & john cainmaker have is that Thomas the cat is not Felix the cat because in the 1917 film by Pat Sullivan the cat did not be seen to get his tail back ... Then their claims are still lacking any proof to their claims that otto messmer created felix the cat & they need more proof. 
Fact is ... their lies have been exposed by the discovery of Pat Sullivans 1917 film. 
Wikipedia should enforce its own rules & Guidelines & require John Caninmaker & Otto Messmer to produce their evidence in the form of early art works or films that pre-date Pat Sullivans 1917 film in the library of congress. 
Does anybody really believe that one day in 1919 Otto Messmer just woke up one morning' & created & drew Felix the cat & then filmed the 1919 movie all on the same day on the back of a spark of inspiration. just days after he returned from fighting world war 1 in Europe. One day hes blowing peoples brains out & the next day hes drawing cartoons ... Please. ...... 
Pat sullivan made the 1919 file tails of Thomas the cat .... & Pat sullivan also has/showed his earlier Dawings, Sketches & other works on Felix the cat. Including his 1917 film ... A film Cainmaker & Messmerwhere unaware of. How was the 1919 film the first as they claimed when we now know about the 1917 film. 
Every artist has a portfolio & a chronology of their art work over the years & decades. Pat Sullivan produced his in the form of his old drawings, His sketches with his writing, & his signature .... Pat sullivan also has the 1917 film made & copyright protected Two, count them ... two whole years before pat Sullivan & Otto Messmer had even meet one another.& indeed' Even two years before Otto messmer returned to the USA from fighting in the U.S army in Europe, during world war one. 
As i said ....
Wikipedia should enforce its own rules & Guidelines & require John Caninmaker & Otto Messmer to produce their evidence in the form of early mesmer art works or films that pre-date Pat Sullivans 1917 artwork & film in the library of congress. 
Fact is John Cainmaker & Otto Messmer have no proof that Messmer had any involvement in the creation of Felix the cat. & as such Wikipedia should Enforce its rules & regulations' regarding unsupported claims, lack of evidence & the Burden of proof & facts based on hearsay & double hearsay.  
This page / article should reflect the fact that Pat Sullivan is the one & true creator of Felix the Cat (( unless & Until )) John Cainmaker & Otto Messmer can produce Evidence & facts to Support their' as of now UNSUPPORTED CLAIMS. & we all know they will never be able to produce any evidence as their claims where & are a lie. & a total fabrication.  Messmer & cainmaker thought the 1919 film was the first ... Long After Pat Sullivan had Died they layed claim to being the creator of the 1919 film. ( they did not know about the 1917 film ) & that where caught out in an act of fraud & deception. & to this day they have been unable to explain how they created Felix the cat in 1919. When Sullivan created the 1917 film two years earlier & his drawings even earlier than 1917. 
Oh & can somebody explain to us all, how otto messmer could claim to create Felix the cat in 1919 & yet not know about the 1917 film ... I mean if Messmer is to be believed then should he not have know about the earlier films & artwork pre 1919.
Otto Messmer & John Cainmakrs claims are based on hearsay & double hearsay & their claims lack any evidence or supporting facts & under the rules of Wikipedia they entire argument is tainted with self interest & fabrications. & as such all mention of Otto Messmers claims & John Cainmakers UN-supported views & lack of proof/supporting documentation, should be removed / struck from the Felix the cat page & from Wikipedia. 
Too keep the lies of John Cainmaker & otto messmer in the Felix the cat article is to taint wikipedia & lessen the integrity of the Wikipedia Project. 
Wikipedia own rules should be enforced & Otto Messmer & john Cainmakers Now proven lies should be removed/deleted on the following grounds/Wikipedia rules. & Pat Sullivans rightful place as the creator of Felix the cat restored. 
Wikipedia aims to be a neutral compilation of verifiable, established facts.
This means:
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Original ideas, interpretations, or research cannot be verified, and thus are inappropriate for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a primary source; it strives to be a tertiary source.
Facts
Wikipedia documents facts; it does not offer editorial opinions. Articles state the important views which exist, and who holds them ("facts about opinions"). 
- not contradict each other. The community's view cannot simultaneously be "A" and "not A". When apparent discrepancies arise between pages, editors at all the affected pages should discuss how they can most accurately represent the community's current position, and correct all of the pages to reflect the community's view. This discussion should be on one talk page, with invitations to that page at the talk pages of the various affected pages; otherwise the corrections may still contradict each other.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.249.15 (talk) 19:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pat sullivan created Felix the cat. So Where is Messmers proof? 

message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q498UYOFxhc
(Dec,2010) Recommended at full screen. A demonstration of Pat Sullivan's work on Feline Folliies, This is to support Pat Sullivan as creator of Felix, Otto Messmer. An animator who worked at the Sullivan Studio, claimed emphatically about 40 years after Sullivan's death that he created Feline Follies (1919) all by himself at home away from the boss's studio. (He thought this is where Felix first appeared under the name Tom not realizing that Sullivan had produced The Tail of Thomas the Kat (1917). Messmer and Canemaker excluded Pat Sullivan totally from the creation, but it is here for the world to see in this clip that Sullivan was fully involved, suggesting he was writing the story and calling the shots not Messmer, but as you can see from the evidence here their story now looks extremely thin, based on Canemaker's hearsay evidence, he took the word of a couple of Otto's buddies who worked with Messmer around the mid 1920s not when Felix was being created.
Taking the word of buddies is not an exact science for example, Argentinian soccer legend Diego Maradona was backed by his whole team for his hand of God soccer goal but confessed 22 years later it was his hand ball. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/20...
Note lettering within the animator's drawinigs (JAM) is a perfect match to that of Sullivan's letter formations also the art mannerisms are that of Sullivan. The art of is now being matched with success, poignantly despite the attempts to exclude Sullivan from the creation of Feline Follies. It is now a farcical situation after claims that Feline Follies was entirely Otto Messmer's work to discover that it is entirely Pat Sullivan's work! At the heart of his claim he claimed a work of Pat Sullivan (Feline Follies) as a work by himself.
Why Sullivan named his cat Felix
Australian Cartoonists' Association archivist Lindsay Foyle has written the story of Pat Sullivan in Inkspot the ACA magazine.Here is why Sullivan called his cat Felix ..." Writing in The Sydney Mail on July 1, 1936 Australian cartoonist, Kerwin Maegraith - a friend of Sullivan's - quoted him saying it came from Australia Felix the name of a Henry Handel Richardson book. Richardson, who in reality was Ethel Florence Lindesay Robertson, had been working on the book in Australia in 1912 and had completed it in London in 1915. It was published in 1917 with quite respectable sales.
The term had first been used by Major Thomas Mitchell, when describing land he explored in central Victoria in 1836. It was also used in Richard Howitt, Impressions of Australia Felix in 1845 and in the name of Australia Felix Monthly Magazine in 1849.
Maegraith also quoted Sullivan saying he drew Felix in solid black after the boxer Peter Felix who had fought for the NSW heavyweight championship the year Sullivan left Sydney. He always appeared in black, frightened children and apparently left an impression, as heavyweight boxers can." http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing... (Sullivan had a great interest in boxing, when he arrived in New York he boxed for prize money)There are two versions by Messmer on how Felix got his name on Otto Messmers official site it says Messmer returned From the American army during World War 1 and rejoined Sullivan with a great idea for a new character named Felix The Cat. Here we have the gang that can't shoot straight, besides claiming of the cat at the wrong time and blissfully unaware of Sullivan's lettering throughout Feline Follies, this is a direct contradiction and must challenge the veracity of other claims in John Canemaker's Felix book, for Messmer is quoted again as saying the name Felix was coined by Mr King of Paramount Magazine...he suggested the name of Felix, which we kicked around a bit and decided this was it. Think about it, why would a distributor be naming the Sullivan studio's cat? They did not know of the strong resonance the name had with Pat Sullivan, that was the best Otto could come up with.
Further information http://www.vixenmagazine.com/News.html
Note ' Vixen' Australian registered Trade Mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q498UYOFxhc
Please add this link to the main article ( in some form ) & also add to the reference section as-well.
Thanks.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.168.240.99 (talk) 16:57, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Felix The Cat -Evidence that it was Pat Sullivan's creation HQ Version  

message: I think Messmers racist past' & his racist felix the cat films should be included on this page ..... If Otto Messmer is going to be portrayed as the creator of Felix the cat. Then His Racist Hatred for Black people should also be included in the over all story,of Otto messmers & felix the cat.
Felix The Cat - Uncle Tom's Crabbin (1920-1929)
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZpjeGHUimIU/hqdefault.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hilishi.com/Crabbin%27&h=360&w=480&tbnid=-bqU1nNJodi-_M:&docid=9J_kwcfTs-VlaM&ei=rew-VpW9Kai3mwWEvpiIDA&tbm=isch&ved=0CGYQMyhAMEBqFQoTCNXHtLeagMkCFajbpgodBB8GwQ  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.187.200 (talk) 06:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  If Messmer created felix. Then that makes Messmeer a Racist & full blown KKK sympathizer  

message: Walt Disneys biography even mentions Felix the cat & pat Sullivan.long before otto mesmer was even on the scen or back from fighting in Europe during world war one. Otto messmer was not even on U.S soil at the time Pat Sullivan was working as an Animator in the USA around 1914-1918 when Felix the cat was created in 1917. ...
Pat Sullivan, an animator who had also worked with Raoul Barre, inventor of the peg system, and Henry "Hy" Mayer, a well-known cartoonist. 
Pat Sullivan had been cartooning and animating for a few years by the time Messmer came to see him. Born Patrick O'Sullivan in Sydney, Australia in 1885, Pat Sullivan's early years were described as "a damned hard struggle." He had had a few comics published, and at age 20 left for London. The years there were even harder, so to make ends meet he often performed on the stage. He was not as successful there, either, and so in 1909, on a job tending mules being shipped to America, he jumped ship in New York. After a brief career in boxing, Sullivan landed a job with the McClure Newspaper Syndicate as assistant to cartoonist William F. Marriner and his Sambo and His Funny Noises strip. After Marriner's death in 1914 Sullivan continued to draw Sambo, but it was dropped by the end of the year. In 1915 he was working at one of the earliest animation studios, Raoul Barre's Animated Cartoons, Inc., where he worked with the now universal peg and cel system.
Now on his own (no longer leasing space from Universal's Fort Lee studio), Sullivan had contracts with Efanem Film Company and Edison for advertising and split-reel entertainment shorts. He animated the Sambo character, calling him Sammy Johnsin to avoid copyright infringement, and produced nine shorts between March and December 1916.
In 1916 Sullivan received a commission from Universal for a two-minute prologue to their Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea called Twenty Thousand Laughs Under the Sea. As Sullivan grew increasingly busy with business.
up until Otto messmer was drafted into the u.s forces & sent to fight in world war one in Europe, Messmer worked for Hy Mayer.
Messmer returned to work for Hy Mayer. But in early part of 1917 otto Messmer was drafted into the armed forces and fought in Europe until his return home May 28, 1919. In the meantime, Sullivan, who had been released after serving nine months, had returned to the studio and announced his return to "Cartoon Making." by late 1917 while otoo messmer was fighting a war in Europe, Pat sullivan had created a black an white cat who loses his tail .... Pat sullivan then used said cat as the bases of his next project.
by the end of 1917, Sullivan had created & drawn, filmed & copy-right protected' & filed the film' Tails of thomas the cat i& it was then stored in the united states libery of congress ... All two long years before otto messmer would even return to the usa in late 1919. 
And thus in 1917 by the hand of pat sullivan ... Felix the Cat born. Originally Thomas the cat, by the third film he was Felix, a combination of feline and felicity. A good-luck cat, Felix brought good luck to people in trouble, a theme upon which the series was based.
Sullivan signed a two-year contract with Famous Players-Lasky for one Felix cartoon a month. 
When Adolph Zukor decided to close down Paramount Screen Magazine because it was too costly, Sullivan realized with a shock that the copyright to Felix now belonged to Famous Players-Lasky. According to Sullivan, in a drunken stupor, he went to Zukor's office and, after urinating on his desk, demanded back the rights to Felix. Disgusted, Zukor phoned his attorney and arranged the transfer.
(( Foot note )) Again all this is going on in 1917 ... & there is no mention or involvment from otto messmer beecause messmer is fighting in Europe for the last 2 years & the next 3 years untill his return in 1919. 
But now back ti 1917/1918
In 1921, Sullivan tried to interest Harry Warner in distributing the Felix series. While Warner was uninterested, his secretary, Margaret J. Winkler, was. On December 15, 1921, she and Sullivan signed a contract, making her the first female producer and distributor of animated films. In February of 1922 she left Warner's and set up shop as an independent distributor, with its cornerstone the Felix the Cat series. But M.J. Winkler demanded better quality from Sullivan, and got it, in the form of improvements in story, photography, and animation.
Felix Saves the Day was the first film to be distributed under the new arrangement, and by April of 1922, Winkler had created a PR bonanza, securing distribution to 60% of the country, including Canada. In 1922 Sullivan and Winkler released Felix All at Sea (May), Felix in Love (June), Felix in the Swim (July), Felix Finds a Way (August), Felix Get Revenge (September), Felix Wakes Up (September), Felix Minds the Kids (October), Felix Turns the Tide (October), Felix on the Trail (November), Felix Gets Left (December).
Despite their simple titles, the Felix cartoons were full of visual puns, imagination, and other humorous details. Felix was the first animated character that was intelligent, in that he contemplated problems and found solutions unique to the world of animation, where the impossible reigns supreme. On September 12, 1922 Winkler and Sullivan extended their contract and Winkler negotiated for international distribution through Pathe.
With a contractual obligation of double the output of 1922, the studio doubled in size, moving to 47 West 63rd Street. The studio also hired Bill Nolan, formerly of Barre's staff and considered "one of the fastest animators who ever lived." In order to save time, Nolan made changes to Felix, including rounding some of Felix's angles and eliminating his snout. The resulting kitty was more cuddly and more sympathetic and, more importantly, easier and faster to draw.
In many of his films, Felix got to spoof the movies, and in Felix in Hollywood, he is the pet of an out-of-work actor. Once in Hollywood, he ditches his owner to pursue his own career at Static Studio. Here he meets Gloria Swanson and is taught to cross his eyes by Ben Turpin. Hearing a cry of help from Douglas Fairbanks, who is being attacked by giant mosquitoes, he takes a gun from William S. Hart and kills the insects, delighting Cecil B. DeMille who signs him to a contract. At one point Felix detaches his tail and performs a pantomime of Charlie Chaplin.
The public loved him, and Felix's output continued with Felix Revolts, Felix Strikes It Rich. In 1923 he became a comic strip, running until 1943. Despite his film popularity, the strips were never as popular as the cartoons themselves, perceived as "advertising" for the films. With the release of the films in Europe through Pathe, Felix became world-famous, even hitting the music charts with 1923's song Felix Kept on Walking.
Felix continued to fly high, with his picture emblazoned on everything from stuffed cats to the side of an F-3 fighter plane. He continued his popularity throughout 1925-1928 with Felix the Cat Trips Through Toyland, Felix Trifles With Time, Felix Finds the Rainbow's End, and a parody of Chaplin in Felix the Cat in the Cold Rush, Eats Are West, Felix in Two Lips Time, Felix Shatters the Sheik, Felix Hunts the Hunter, Felix Trumps the Ace, Felix Dines and Pines, Pedigreedy, Felix Hits the Deck, Flim Flam Films, and Comicalamities.
However, as sound began to creep into films, noticeably Walt Disney's new Mickey Mouse cartoons, Sullivan hesitated, taking a "Why change?" attitude. When he finally decided to add sound to some old and new Felix films, the work was sloppy, compared to Disney who carefully analyzed, frame by frame, the marriage of sound to action. By 1931 Felix's prime had passed, replaced by a new king of cartoons and character licensing: Mickey Mouse.
Sources: The 50 Greatest Cartoons as Selected by 1,000 Animation Professionals, Jerry Beck, editor; Felix: The Twisted Tale of the World's Most Famous Cat, by John Canemaker.
So you see ...... the claim on the main page that sez & i quote.
Animation historians back Messmer's claims. Among them are Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon.[12] No animation historians outside of Australia have argued on behalf of Sullivan.
Well the above quote is just wrong on several counts.
for a start many animators outside Australia have & do support/credit pat sullivan as the only true creator of felix the cat .... upto & including Walt Disney ( see his biography ) ... also i should point out the Hypocrisy of the above quote. I have already pointed out severy world renound animators from outside Australia have credited Sullivan as the true an only creator of felix the cat.
(copyright 1917 )  including Walt Disney .... 
But also the Hypocrisy of the claim that no animator outside Australia supports Pat Sullivan ..... & then have the article go on & list several animators who support Otoo Mesmers claims over Felix the cats creation in late 1919 after he returned from world war 1. 
Only to leave out the fact' that all the animators listed on the main page who are said to support Otoo messmers version of events. are ALL U.S Animators.
Animation historians back Messmer's claims. Among them are Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon.[12] No animation historians outside of Australia have argued on behalf of Sullivan.
John Cainmaker, Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon. are all U.S animators or lack any supporting evedance to back up said claim that they support Messmer  ... 
I would very much like to see/hear what they in-fact' do think or dont think. Given that pat sullivan created Felix in 1917 when Messmer was in Europe fighting in world war one. how do the explain that & what evedance do they have to support their views .... After all .... History will judge them & their UN-suported claims.
I know of atleat two more books being written about this topic & i can assure you the likes of John Cainmaker, Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon. will have their credibility & life works reviewed & judged in the public domain. 
So if they would like to clarify their position on this mater. Before they are humiliated for being hacks, fraudsters & counterfeiters of history. & so remembered forever as being on the wrong side of the facts, of history & of the truth.
I look forward to them all putting their names to the claims made in the main article, & cant wait for them to explain the inconsistency in their, & otto messmers storys.
Pat sullivan created his first film in the usa on U.S soil in 1917. ( See U.S library of congress ) 
Otto messmer was fighting in ww1 on European soil' between 1916 & 1919. (( are we all meant to believe that otto messmer just left the war in Europe & popped back to the USA for a day trip where he drew felix, filmed felix. & then the next day he went back to fight the Germans in Europe for the next 3 years until he returned to the usa in mid to late 1919.
Please ..... Otto messmers story is full of holes & John Cainmaker & his cohort of U.S animators fail to provide any evidence to back up the dubious claims. 
& for that reason ... this unsupported statment  on the main page,
'Animation historians back Messmer's claims. Among them are Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon.[12] No animation historians outside of Australia have argued on behalf of Sullivan.
Should be removed ... or edited to state that NO animator outside the USA supports Messmers claims.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.243.183 (talk) 14:19, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The claim "no animator outside Australia backs Sullivan" is wrong. Walt Disney worked with Sullivan' As did many other U.S animators'  

message: Substituted at 15:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: From 1994 to 1996, Felix the Cat replaced Fido Dido on their CBS Saturday Morning bumpers on shows like Garfield & Friends.
View that link:
 (skip to 10:47 and ended at 12:57)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C8:C003:1DE0:58AE:44B5:EDE3:E26E (talk) 01:58, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saturday Morning 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It was Bill Nolan who gave Felix his current design not Joe Oriolo plus I don’t think people who have redesigned characters should be in the creator section Controlrabbit (talk) 18:03, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gave credit to someone who didn’t give a character it’s current design 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:22, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: In which case the two articles should link to each other in some way.  Have left a note on the other talk page too. Romomusicfan (talk) 08:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely their mascot was inspired by cartoon Felix but we can't write this without a proper source. Kazachstanski nygus (talk) 17:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Felix from the [[Felix (cat food)]] advert - Is it the same character? 

message: Why and how is the title italicised? This is erroneous and should be changed (the page refers to a character rather than a piece of media) but I'm not exactly sure how to remove it. I can't find an ITALICTITLE or DISPLAYTITLE template in the source code so... If anyone else could change this I would be greatly appreciative! Loytra (talk) 13:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind, I figured it out. 😅 The title was italicised because of a comic strip infobox deeper in the page. Disregard the previous message! Loytra (talk) 13:14, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italic title