Talk:Prussian Settlement Commission

message: "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category," says the Wikipedia guideline WP:CG.
Anti-Polonism is defined as "irrational fear or malicious hostility toward Poles". A wiki category implies that one thing is part of another, which means that the Settlement Commission had anti-polonistic aims.
I doubt that, for the simple reason that German nationalism is not necessarily anti-Polonism. If you support your team in a soccer match, are you anti-the other team? No, you simply want YOUR team to win. So I highly doubt that Bismarck, who you can judge as so Pro-German that when it comes to deciding whether Germany or Poland should have an advantage he'd prefer Germany, was anti-Polonistic and have therefore removed the category Anti-Polonism since it is at best controversial, at worst a misinterpretation, at any rate a case where the guideline above says it should be deleted.NightBeAsT 14:44, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bismarcks speech was given to you in which he explains his actions are aimed against Poles.Of course you deleted it as soon as it was posted. --Molobo 17:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And an answer to it you can find on Talk:Kulturkampf and on my talk page.NightBeAsT 17:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to allege something in a subtle way: Category Anti-Polonism and what it implies 

message: The precise numbers are 21.866 families, 154,000 settlers altogether. Andrzej Chwalba - Historia Polski 1795-1918 page 461--Molobo (talk) 20:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  21,866 German famiies settled, 154 thousands colonists altogether. 

message: The number of Germans increased, but the Comission failed to Germanise Polish territories as it was not enough.--Molobo (talk) 18:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How / to what extend did the number of Germans increase (source?) Skäpperöd (talk) 20:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

text: How / to what extend did the number of Germans increase ? Skäpperöd (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More precise statement 

message: "In 1912 the first and only four Polish large estates with 1656 hectares were expropriated [5]."
Laws aimed at expelling circa 2,000 milion Poles and Jews to make room for German colonists were prepared during First World War.--Molobo (talk) 18:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laws to expell further 2,000 milion Poles and Jews to make room for Settlers were created in First World War 

message: Clarified Nazi propaganda. 
Blanke doesn't say "only the number of Poles increased" but that there were more Poles then in beginning. He makes no mention if the overall number of Germans increased in that period or not, as wrongly inserted sentence could imply.
--Molobo (talk) 21:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarified Nazi propaganda and made clains precise 

message: Ethno-nationality, Property Rights in Land and Territorial
Sovereignty in Prussian Poland, 1886-1918: Buying the land from under the Poles' feet? by Scott M. Eddie University of Toront
Will expand the article using this.
--Molobo (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting source  

message: "Publications in Nazi Germany made claims that many colonists were German natives from the region. [12]"
If so, finish it. If not, delete it. What is the relevence to *this* article? Bwood (talk) 14:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Rm Skäpperöd (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. Nazi propaganda brought by Skapperod is notable. I will restore information that it presented colonists as natives.--Molobo (talk) 21:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there a point to this sentence? 

message: Sources from German Empire claiming that colonists were natives must be portayed in neutral way as there is question about their neutrality.--Molobo (talk) 19:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do accept that a substantial German population dwelled in the Polish lands since the Middle Ages. You are the only one who disputes that. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Since you agree on the presence of Germans native to these territories, what is your problem to accept that some of them aquired land from the SC under favourable conditions? Skäpperöd (talk) 21:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. They were immigrants and colonists, not "natives". The question is about German colonists sent to Germanise Polish territories. Not about if earlier there was some other influx of Germans into Poland. Third German Empire which was an essentialy racist apartheid state for Poles isn't objective source of information about its treatment of Polish population.--Molobo (talk) 21:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

text: They were immigrants and colonists, not "natives". You are wrong about that. Please keep in mind that there was a substantial German population there since the Middle Ages, some were assimilated ("Polonized" if you like), others were not. You can't call those people immigrants or colonists.Skäpperöd (talk) 20:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The question is about German colonists sent to Germanise Polish territories. Not about if earlier there was some other influx of Germans into Poland. That is what you keep to confuse. They were not sent. The SC bought land (from both Poles and Germans, see article) and offered these lands at good conditions to Germans only, regardless of where these Germans came from. It is not very surprising that, besides Germans from distant areas, also locals took their chance. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Third German Empire which was an essentialy racist apartheid state for Poles isn't objective source of information about its treatment of Polish population. No "Third German Empire" is used as a source here. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Empire's sources 

message: Please explain blanking of the page regarding information about discrimination of Poles in German Empire 
The information is essential to make the reader understand what were the reasons for this situation.--Molobo (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unexplained blanking regarding discrimination of Poles 

message: Are the records of the commission are open to the public? The reason I ask is that my fathers paternal grandparents came to the US in October 1886 from Sztum County. I have always wondered if the commission purchased their land.--Woogie10w (talk) 02:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The records are partly lost, partly in Berlin, Posen or Bromberg. Look here for mor detail (in German): http://www.gsta.spk-berlin.de/schlagwort_posen_664.html Skäpperöd (talk) 08:21, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Records of the Commission 

message: Major expansion:
*Added more on funds
*Added more on resistance of Poles 
*Added more on motivation behind the action
*Added on actvity of SC leaders during First World War
*Added various other details.
*Added map.
--Molobo (talk) 21:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major expansion 

message: The name of the article has been moved without prior discussion or request to move. The current name doesn't seem to be encounterd in English sources besides Wikipedia. The Settlement Commission seems to be the most common name encountered. If somebody wants to change the name please use the discussion page and request for move. Regards,--Molobo (talk) 14:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*
*Strong Oppose The name doesn't appear outside of Wikipedia(original research), a more acceptable name would be Prussian Settlement Commission or Settlement Commission(Prussian Partition of Poland). The proposed name uses German not English name of Poznań so it is not correct translation,  also it is too long.--Molobo (talk) 09:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me Skäpperöd (talk) 16:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Any additional comments: 
The article must be moved back to Royal Prussian Settlement Commission in the provinces of West Prussia and Posen for the following reasons:
:(1) Wikipedia:Naming conventions (government departments and ministers) says: 1) All Wikipedia articles on public agencies/offices/departments etc. and political officials must effectively communicate the name of the jurisdiction involved within the article title. So we would have to include Prussia by adding S.... C.... (Prussia), if there was not: 3) Pre-disambiguation shall not be carried out in the event of the jurisdiction name being a natural part of the subject's name (c.f. [...] Royal Australian Navy, [...]), so we need to title the article with (the English translation of) the commissions natural name.
:(2) The use of "Settlement Commission" only is disambiguous, numerous other settlement commissions can be found at google search for "settlement commission", google books search for "settlement commission" and google scholar search for "settlement commission". Settlement Commission should be made a dab page. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:43, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (3) "Royal Prussian Settlement Commission in the provinces of West Prussia and Posen" is the correct translation of the full German name "Königlich Preußische Ansiedlungskommission in den Provinzen Westpreußen und Posen". The translation of the provinces' names Westpreußen and Posen should be West Prussia and Posen - not Poznan (which is the Polish name of the city the province was named after), as the respective Prussian province was/is known as Province of Posen. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your responce. However it doesn't seem to support the claim to your name which is not effective and actualy counterproductive to Wiki rules. The name you chose doesn't appear outside Wikipedia so it wouldn't be effective. If there will be more Settlement Commission articles we will create a dab page. For now that is not a problem. Furthermore your title is way too long and would have to include double naming for germanised names of Polish Poznań. A Settlement Commission(Prussian partition of Poland) is a better title. But for now that is not a problem since the Settlement Commission is the best known title for that organisation and no other articles of similar names exist. Also if they would be created it would be easier to give those less known commissions their own specific names rather then change this one. Also your title is not found outside of Wiki-it is clear therefore that it would be Original Research. After all the English name of Poznań is Poznan and not Posen, therefore the translation would be different. Regards--Molobo (talk) 19:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the shortened term "Settlement Commission" is widely used, however only in contexts that make it clear which commission is being talked about, that is the shortened term is only in use in works on late 19th/early 20th Prussia and the respective provinces are always mentioned. Here, we have a different case. Another settlement commission that has a wiki article is eg the Foreign Claims Settlement Commission, others might be on wiki already or will come up. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As you yourself noted there are no other articles besides the two. Foreign Claims Settlement Commission is already in existance and has its own specific name, the name you propose is way too long for Wiki, doesn't appear outside of Wikipedia  and uses German not English name of Poznań. More acceptable alternatives are Prussian Settlement Commission or Settlement Commission(Prussian Partition of Poland).--Molobo (talk) 09:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Besides the Foreign Claims Settlement Commission, other settlement commissions are also mentioned in en wiki without (yet) having an own article: Bill Dodd (Tidelands settlement commission) Henry Morgenthau, Sr. (Greek Refugee Settlement Commission) Wollert, Victoria (Soldier Settlement Commission) Skäpperöd (talk) 10:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you-as you can see all of those have short and elegant names. So how about Prussian Settlement Commission,Settlement Commission in Prussian Partition of Poland, Settlement Commission(Prussian Partition of Poland) ?--Molobo (talk) 10:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Ok, I see you agree on the need of a title change because of the disambiguity of the current title. You simply oppose the use of thq=%22settlement%20commission%22 google books search for "settlement commission"] and [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100e English translation of the commission's German name. Yet, as I outlined in reasons (1) and (3) for the move request, we do not have another option without interfering with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (government departments and ministers). Your descriptive proposals could be used for redirect pages. If however your concerns are all about the mentioning of the word "Posen" or the non-mentioning of the words "Poznan" and "Poland", please say so and have this discussion in a separate section. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you didn't understand. Settlement Commission is quite ok with me.  As to German, indeed this is English wikipedia we don't use German language here.--Molobo (talk) 11:33, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Oh, now I see I understood very well. You don't want "Posen" in this articles title, since this is the only term in the English translation of the German term that resembles the German word. If you want to discuss whether or not the English term for the respective province is Province of Posen or not, do that at Talk:Province of Posen and do not have this discussion as a substitute. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry to say you still don't understand. Also the English name of Poznań is Poznan from what I know, and in German Poznań is germanised to Posen. However I guess we already established that your title is nowhere to be found outside Wikipedia and thus Original Research. What can be sourced is The "Royal Prussian Settlement Commission in the Provinces of West Prussia and Poznania" which Scott Eddie uses. Who btw you used as a source, so you should know already. Still that is a very long term, and not as common as Prussian Settlement Commission.--Molobo (talk) 14:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

text: A variety of translations of the commission's name can be found, one being the Eddie term ... Poznania, ... Posen and West Prussia are more common. But since you again made it clear in your last post that the only purpose of this straw man discussion is to introduce your "Poznan" stuff, I will abstain from getting deeper into a naming dispute that in fact is none - "Province of Posen" is the established English name of the former province, and all you add concerning that matter is displaced here. Yet, I am glad that you once again stated your motivation, so now everybody knows. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry but I can't see anywhere outside Wikipedia the title you proposed. Similar title is used by Scott but with Poznania rather then Posen. It seems your title is Original Research. However even Scott's title is very limited in use and outnumbered by other accepted names of the Commission that was to germanise Polish territories. Also please stop personal accusations and focus on the matter on hand. This will improve the quality of discussion. Regards--Molobo (talk) 16:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
--> Move to "Prussian Settlement Commission" requested at WP:RM Uncontroversial Moves following the consensus of the move debate. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: I made several additions. First of all Prussia wasn't 'tolerant' to Poles and pursued Germanisation efforts-this can be easly sourced by multiple sources if desired so. Least to say hundreds of Poles were sentenced to death by Prussia for pro-Polish activities and Duchy of Poznań was stripped of its autonomy very soon, German officials were selected instead of Polish ones to rule the region, Polish university was denied right to operate and so on.--Molobo (talk) 14:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You deleted RS-sourced information that Prussia respected Polish nationality and language before the advent of Kulturkampf. You cannot just do that, and you should know that by now. If you have RS stating something different, read WP:NPOV how to proceed. I reverted to the initial version. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Of a population of ~4 million (PoP+WP) 150,000 of which a quarter was there already before is not really that much, is it. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You would have to lower that overall population number-since it contains German military, officials and previous settlers brought to Germanise Polish areas. But indeed 150,000 is a considerable percentage and is a large number.
--Molobo (talk) 21:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Several additions

message: "Royal Prussian Settlement Commission in the provinces of West Prussia and Posen"
This name does not appear outside of Wikipedia.--Molobo (talk) 20:38, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name does not appear outside of Wikipedia 

message: Ferdinande Knabe, Sprachliche Minderheiten und nationale Schule in Preussen zwischen 1871 und 1933: Eine bildungspolitische Analyse,
Prussia had respected Polish nationality and language.
Where is that stated ? I couldn't find anything on page 118, but perhaps my German knowledge isn't good enough.--Molobo (talk) 22:28, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Couldn't find the alledged sourced text in the book 

message: It will be continued tomorrow, please have patience.
--Molobo (talk) 04:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The update is continuing 

message: Made minor style corrections.
--Molobo (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Made minor style  corrections 

message: Please check :Category:Politics and race, which has sub-cats related specifically to ethnicity. I'm not an expert on categorization at Wikipedia and often times it leaves me scratching my head, but perhaps the question of whether an article such as this is covered by the relevant cats would be better discussed at the category's talk page? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "racism" cats 

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