Talk:Hugo Chávez/Archive 6

message: The template with the list of all the presdients' names that is at the bottom is very wrong. Many of the name are not listed well. Let me explain a bit first and for this lets use the example of Chavez. As we know his name is Hugo Rafael Chavez Frias. When talking about him by a single name, we use Chavez. Now, lets asume he didn't had a middle name or just decided not to use it and thus people would know him as Hugo Chavez Frias. He would still be Chavez. You wouldn't call him Frias or write his last name as Frias in the template. Well, exactly this is what has happened with the names of many presidents in the template. I assume this is because in the anglo-saxon world people are used only to first name, middle name and last name. Whereas in Venezuela people -though the legal name will always have both parents names) they can use any combination of first name, middle name, last name (father's) and second last name (from mother) when it comes to telling people how they want to be called. The only two that are always used as a minimum are the first name and the father's last name. Thus Chavez could have made himself known as any of these: Hugo Chavez, Hugo Rafael Chavez, Hugo Chavez Frias, or Hugo Rafael Chavez Frias. But regardless of that he would always be Chavez. In some cases, you have to list the second word of his name and in others the third one to capture his last name. Now, in the template many names appear wrong. For example: Antonio Guzman Blanco should not be Blanco but instead Guzman or Guzman Blanco. Luis Herrera Campins now appears as Campins and that is wrong. It should be Herrerera or Herrera Campins. The same happens in many more cases. A few that are also wrong: Perez Jimenez, Lopez Contreras, Medina Angarita, and a bunch more. Surprisingly, whoever made the template got Carmona right and didn't put his name as Estanga. --Anagnorisis 09:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am the one who made that template. Other than the few examples you pointed out, I do not know which other ones are wrong. So, you should go enter "Template:VEpresidents" into the search box and take a few seconds to correct them. Then you will know how to edit other templates. Meanwhile, I will put an edit link into the box. Saravask 00:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I will try doing it tomorrow. Yes, it is difficult for anyone who is not used to the names in Venezuela to know which is really the one last name to use, as some people like writing both their last names (often when the father's is very common, like Perez). Thus for those from overseas, it is difficult to know for sure if the last word in the name (when using 3) is the father's last name (if using the middle name) or the mother's (if not using middle name but using the mother's one following the father's). --Anagnorisis 04:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I just added the edit link. I'm sorry I havn't been putting in many changes into this article. I've just become numbed down with theHugo Chavez and his politics. Let me know also if you want to include the information on his middle name origins (I know you've been reverted at least twice now for some reason). Saravask 05:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Anagnorisis. I see you've corrected the problems. Saravask 05:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I did all. But not sure. Did it in a bit of a rush. I shorten some from the way they were normally referred to in spoken language locally to keep it to 4 rows: for example Lopez Contreras is rarely called plain Lopez and Perez Jimenez is never called Perez. As to Chavez name, I do not care so much about it, but I think it is a good way to bring into the article the fact his father was a supporter of the Caldera and the COPEI party (the father even got to be the local hot-shot for his state at the ministry of education during one of COPEI's governments). Otherwise people have no way to read about the political inclinations of his family. Now, I think it is really relevant to emphasize him being raised all his childhood by his frandmother and his attachment to her, in detriment of his mother. --Anagnorisis 06:02, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Template of presidents is wrong

message: (I wrote this below thinking of posting it in the article's discussion page. But thought that maybe better to leave it here - or else people may think I am now criticizing the article. I may now try to make some of the changes I mention)
Although the article has (in my opinion) a slight pro-Chavez slant, I think it is difficult reducing it without then giving it a slight anti-Chavez slant. Why? Because given the recency of the events mentioned and the passions that Chavez generate, at some moment or the other, the people writing the article will have to assume as true what either the supporters or the detractors of Chavez claim. For example, the Bolivarian missions. What are they really for? What have they really achieved? Depending of who you ask, you will get different responses. Now, having said this, I think the following is to be done to correct some factual errors and reduce a bit the pro-Chavez slant and some factual errors (I am not sure yet if I will try to make these corrections myself - would inform here if I do):
# Mention in the first sentence where it is said what Chavez is known for, that it is also due to his folkloric (or peculiar, or coloquial, or whatever else you want to call it) public speaking style.
# Delete "... and numbers among the mestizos and mulattos of central Venezuela's llanos." as it was not as relevant to him being first elected as now the chavista movement wants to make it look. Venezuela has had mestizo leaders before Chavez. Prior Venezuelan governments didn't discriminate in any way against mestizos (most of the population is mestizo anyway).
# Though it is true that his house was built with 'palms' (which was not uncommon at the time in the area), it was not a "hut". It was a proper "house."
# Chavez was not the only brother to move to live with his grand mother (as the article now says). He moved along with his elder brother Adan.
# Where it says that he was 8th in his class, mention that the class size was of 75 people.
# I do not know of Chavez being decorated in any way beyond what is normal. I would remove the sentence "Chávez was heavily decorated throughout his military career.[12]" Besides, the source is from his official bio in a government website, and it only mentions what he was awarded but it doesn't say that amounts to a lot. Thus they could even amount to less than what his peers got.
***I'm going to remove the word "heavily", so that it will read "Chavez was decorated throughout his military career". Saravask 05:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: * Hmmm ... I think that doesn't amount to saying much. I cannot think of a single military guy that hasn't been decorated in one way or the other for something. All the military always carry some colorful stuff in their chests. --Anagnorisis 06:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess. Makes sense. I removed the whole sentence. Saravask 06:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Comment: Please note that the fact that some of the missions make payments to is enrollees is not in dispute between the opposition and the government (as it sounds now in the article). It is a well known fact. What is in dispute is the motivation, the effectiveness and basically the whole philosophical rational behind those payments as a way to improve the life of the poor in the long run. Of course, the poor are very happy, but critics claim this is a short lived stop-gap measure for the near future as the missions are not programs that pay the individual over long periods of time. Some fear what happen when the missions run their course as people get used to receiving easy money for just attending some classes. --Anagnorisis 05:42, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Corrections that need to be made (suggested by Anagnorisis, and first sent to Saravask)

message: Silence, there you go again. What a twisted ego and how convenient you apply double standards. Your wikiname certainly is an attempt at ironic humor. Instead of Silence, your prose brings to mind the Energizer bunny. Keeps going and going and going. Funny how you get annoyed and when others missunderstand what you say you were clearly saying, while claiming it is not your problem they do not understand you. While on the other hand being presumptious enough to correct and give your "correct" interpretation of what it is others were saying. With such a duplicious style, there is no point in even trying to have any kind of semi-smart debate with you. So go ahead, retort now with another of those diatribes. I have better things to do than keep wasting my times with a self centered egomaniac that has blinders in his brain and instead of listening to a criticism (however sarcastic or ironic it may have been initially), because his ego is not able to handle it, then resorts to escalate the disagreement and digresses and turns it into a semantic tango with no end in sight. One thing is certain: you are a smart guy, but that aside, I hope you are also fairly young, as you are not showing the mental maturity that only years of experience teach people with great intellects in regard to how to handle their own ego. Some never learn how to do it and become brilliant minds with a style that does not allow them to relate well with society. Hopefully you are not there yet, and there is time for you to learn and not turn into one of those cases already. If you are already past the age to learn how to handle your ego, then any further discussion is a waste of time. Either way, I am not wasting more time with you. From now on you will get SILENCE from me. Besides, it will also be nice of me stop enticing you to reply as we should try not forcing this silly tango to readers who want to discuss here the Chavez article instead of this silly ego sparring about whose dick (sorry brain) is bigger. Go ahead, you can have the last word (which I won't bother reading -like I just did with most of your last retort-, but that I am sure the fans you think you have here await with anticipation). "The higher you fly the smaller you look to people on the ground." Oh, one last comment, changing the position of my signature to follow after text written by you, is highly unethical if done on purpose (to put it mildly). I hope it was an honest mistake (which I dount it was).  --Anagnorisis 22:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Energizer bunny

message: Yada yada ya. You seem to be going for some kind of record; is it the higher ratio of words in rthe reply to words in text replied to? Gosh, you really are like the energizer bunny. BTW, as I reminded you earlier, this page is to discuss the article. It is not intended to be used as practice for your next session at the school debate club. Debate by the sake of debate over the debate itself is very much digressing from the page's topic. And as said before, I will not debate anything with you. What is the point? Besides, I am not even reading what you writing. Just that diarrhea of words is too much to even glance at. So I wonder to who you are addresing all that? Do you have a fan base that anxiously awaits to read your witty diatribes (oh no! this will just elicit now another long retort - sorry guys, but he cant help it- Silence likes being loud). Silence, you can have the last word. Go ahead, gives us another 3 or 4 pages of your beautiful prose ...... Hmmmmm, but now that I think about it, .... it is starting to be amusing to see how easy you can be baited: bait, sink and ..... hooked. Yes!! Lets do it one more time. --Anagnorisis 05:34, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  .... going and going and going ....