Talk:Steeve Elana

message: Hello,
User:Ortizesp repeatedly  categories about an alledged Guinean descent for Steeve Elana, which I believe is not acceptable seeing the status of this information and our current guidelines, specifically WP:BLPCAT and WP:EGRS.
Here's what the sources linked in the article say:
* https://www.afrik-foot.com/guinee-la-naturalisation-de-steeve-elana-a-capote (hardly a reliable source):
** Title:  Rough translation: Guinea: the naturalization of Steeve Elana has collapsed!
** Lede:  Rough translation: Tours goalkeeper Steeve Elana was unable to prove his links with Guinea, which led to failure of his naturalization.
** Abstract relative to ascendancy:  Rough translation: [Elana] did not manage to prove his links with Guinea, which made his naturalization collapse. ″On my mother’s side, I have ties to Guinea. It goes back to great-grandparents… But I didn't look any further to find out which city or region I am from,″ recently explained the former Martinique international (a selection not affiliated with FIFA, which allowed him to play for Guinea) to the centpourcentfoot.net website. ″Elana did not know which part of Guinea his grandmother came from,″ confirmed Cellou Tata Diallo, the BBC correspondent in Conakry, explaining that the goalie therefore left for France without a Guinean passport. This is a big blunder for the Guinean Federation (Feguifoot) which visibly got carried away by summoning a player without having first carried out the usual administrative checks.
* http://www.foot224.co/2019/03/14/syli-national-les-23-de-paul-put-pour-affronter-la-centrafrique/ (hardly a reliable source either): no sentence found about Elana's ascendancy or ethnicity. This earlier article (14 March 2019) is about the list of players called to play for the 2019 CAN Guinea football team, which names Elana as a newcomer. This information will then be denied in the other article.
All which that leaves us is Elana's own declarations, which makes it a primary source.
This information (i.e. both the claim to Guinean descent and its invalidity) is worth being mentioned in the article, but it cannot justify placing Elana in a "Guinean descent" category, per the standards set in our guidelines. Specifically:
*  (WP:BLPCAT):
:
* Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality (WP:EGRS):
:
:
 
On a side note, the word Guinea used to describe the entire region of West Africa, so the claim isn't even very clear geographically speaking.
I therefore think that these categories should be removed. I'm leaving a note on WikiProject Categories and WP:BLP/N in order to have additional input. Place Clichy (talk) 09:34, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This article does not disprove he is of Guinean descent. The relevant part: "On my mother’s side, I have ties to Guinea. It goes back to great-grandparents… But I didn't look any further to find out which city or region I am from,″ recently explained the former Martinique international (a selection not affiliated with FIFA, which allowed him to play for Guinea). In fact, this is a reference that proves he is of Guinean descent. However, to play for a national team you have to abide by the Grandfather rule, and this is where Elana failed - he could not prove his grandmothers place of birth. Regardless, he is of Guinean descent, he just can't play for the Guinea national football team as it stands. And the categories are relevant to the page because of this whole ordeal.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  If the article does not prove or disprove anything, and we are left with the subject's own comments, then this is unreliable information. It can be mentioned in the article's body with all the disclaimers and modifiers that allow for it, but it cannot be featured in categories for the policy reasons stated above. Place Clichy (talk) 15:00, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree completely, we have confirmation from the subject himself that he is of Guinean descent. This is affirmed by the Guinean FA in the article, which in fact confirms the policy reasons above. The only debate is what town his grandmother was born in, which doesn't change his ethnicity.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You wrote it:  There is nothing else. This makes the information unreliable. The policy is therefore clear that the article cannot be, at this step, included in these categories. Place Clichy (talk) 23:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

text: We have an article where he himself says he is of Guinean descent, and the fact that he was called up to the Guinean team. That is all that is needed. The article itselfis the primary source, not the fact that the player says it. Added additional reference to his ethnicity.--Ortizesp (talk) 00:03, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Self-identification by living people is the gold standard for BLP. If President Donald Trump goes on the Colbert Show and says he is a woman born on Mars and has green blood, we use the appropriate pronouns and place her in :Category:Martians with green blood. If Elana claims he is of Guinean descent, then who are we to judge? We categorize him accordingly and cite our sources in the article. Elizium23 (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories about Guinean descent