Talk:Whitewashing

message: User:StanZegel and Drboisclair are both stalkers that are reverting my contributions on wiki.  They, along with other self-identified Lutherans are engaged in whitewashing and censoring here and On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies and everywhere else that scholarly research exposes their coreligionists connection to the history of antisemitism.  If anyone knows how wiki attempts to control these fully documented rogue editors, please let me know.Doright 05:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This statement is patently slanderous and without foundation, and it should be deleted at once. drboisclair 19:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Without foundation?  How about the foundation provided by Dr Robert Michael [] that User:StanZegel and Drboisclair deleted?  It said:  "Luther scholars who defend, censor, or try to tone down his views on the Jews, ignore the murderous implications of Luther's antisemitism. Like the Nazis, Luther mythologized the Jews as completely evil: they should not be treated as humans and should be cast out of Germany. They could be saved if they converted to Christianity, but their demonic hostility to Christian society makes this inconceivable. There was a strong parallel between Luther's ideas and feelings about Jews and Judaism and the essentially anti-Jewish Weltanschauung of most German Lutherans throughout the Holocaust."  Reference - Abstract of Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars and the Jews." Encounter 46 (1985) no. 4:339-356 in Annotated Bibliography of Antisemitism (BAS) [Database Online] Jerusalem: The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, SYSNO [0016087]. Doright 10:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Allegations against editors

message: The intrusion of this  alleged instance of whitewashing is not factual or supported in sources outside of Wikipedia. The editor adding this intrudes his POV into this article, which is contrary to principles of WP:NPOV and WP:OR drboisclair 19:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The carefully chosen instance of whitewashing 

message: Your claim: "Not factual or supported by sources outside of Wikipedia."  Well, how about this source?  Abstract of Michael, Robert. "Luther, Luther Scholars and the Jews." Encounter 46 (1985) no. 4:339-356 in Annotated Bibliography of Antisemitism (BAS) [Database Online] Jerusalem: The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, SYSNO [0016087]. It says:  "Luther scholars who defend, censor, or try to tone down his views on the Jews, ignore the murderous implications of Luther's antisemitism. Like the Nazis, Luther mythologized the Jews as completely evil: they should not be treated as humans and should be cast out of Germany. They could be saved if they converted to Christianity, but their demonic hostility to Christian society makes this inconceivable. There was a strong parallel between Luther's ideas and feelings about Jews and Judaism and the essentially anti-Jewish Weltanschauung of most German Lutherans throughout the Holocaust."Doright 10:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Luther scholars who defend, censor, or try to tone down Luther's views on the Jews whitewash his antisemitism

message: (cur | prev)  15:42, 27 July 2010 TheRealFennShysa (talk | contribs) (9,683 bytes) (Reverted 5 edits by Nemogbr; You want to insert it all? as multiple editors have contested it, YOU make the case on the talk page. (TW)) (undo) 
Incorrect statement. These multiple editors have supported my original edits:
(cur | prev)  22:19, 26 July 2010 Silvercell2 (talk | contribs) (15,509 bytes) (Undid revision 370599460 by TheRealFennShysa (talk)) (undo) 
(cur | prev)  04:48, 27 June 2010 72.83.66.125 (talk) (21,587 bytes) (Undid revision 370310937 by TheRealFennShysa (talk)) (undo) 
(cur | prev)  05:14, 26 June 2010 Kiriemarie (talk | contribs) (21,176 bytes) (→Casting controversy: The Last Airbender) (undo) 
(cur | prev)  16:44, 22 June 2010 Schmooey82 (talk | contribs) (18,711 bytes) (Added more detail to body of text) (undo) 
I left this article alone to see how it would progress, but with the obstruction of TheRealFennShysa and preferred version, the page has not progressed and improved.
Nemogbr (talk) 15:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions by   TheRealFennShysa 

message: This section was made by another, but is not a section showing other films race-bended from white to non-white be appropriate? 
Please state why it should be deleted.
Nemogbr (talk) 15:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverse Whitewashing

message: | 2004 || Legend of Earthsea || Shawn Ashmore as Ged|| A loose adaptation of the award-winning Earthsea novels by Ursula K. Le Guin. It premiered as a two-night television event on the Sci-Fi Channel in December 2004. Le Guin was not involved in the development of the material or the making of the production and has written a number of responses to the mishandling of this adaptation of her works, including "A Whitewashed Earthsea"http://slate.com/id/2111107/%20%22A%20Whitewashed%20Earthsea and "Frankenstein's Earthsea"http://locusmag.com/2005/Issues/01LeGuin.html.
|-
Why was this example deleted from the page? It has links to an open letter written by the author complaining of the whitewashing of her characters? 
Nemogbr (talk) 15:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Legend of Earthsea]] deleted by TheRealFennShysa

message: |-
- 	
| 2008 || The Forbidden Kingdom || Michael Angarano as Xuanzhang renamed as Jason Tripitikas || One of the recent films where "whitewashing" occurs. The Asian character is changed into a White character. In this case, an all-American Caucasian kid saves ancient China, helped along the way by Jet Li and Jackie Chan.
|-
We have the example of Kar from Bulletproof Monk who was originally of Tibetan origin and then changed into a white american protagonist. This fact has been established from graphic novel.
The Forbidden Kingdom is a film about a white teenager saving Ancient China. The name change from Tripitaka to Triptakas is pretty much blatant.
I'd really like to find out the reasoning.
Nemogbr (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The Forbidden Kingdom]] deleted by TheRealFennShysa

message: From what I can see, the entry keeps getting deleted and other people are not being given the chance to find more links. 
Nemogbr (talk) 15:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The Last Airbender]] deleted by TheRealFennShysa 

message: |-
| 2008 || Speed Racer || Emil Hirsch, John Goodman, Susan Sarandon, Paulie Litt, and Scott Porter as the Racer family; Christina Ricci as Trixie; Matthew Fox as Racer X; Kick Gurry as Sparky; Nicholas Elia as Young Speed; Ariel Winter as Young Trixie|| Film based on the Japanese Anime, in which the family was originally named Mifune, Trixie was named Michi Shimura, and Sparky was named Sabu. 
|-
This film is based upon the JAPANESE Anime.
Please state reasons as to why it should not be an example.
Nemogbr (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Speed Racer]] 

message: | 2008  || 21 || Jim Sturgess as Ben Campbell || Please see above.  
|-
There are articles about the whitewashing of this film based upon mostly Asian-American characters and replaced with a white caucasian cast and one asian couple as secondary characters. Asia Pacific American groups like MANAA have complained about the production. 
Please state as to why it should not be an example. 
Nemogbr (talk) 15:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casting controversy : 21 deleted by TheRealFennShysa 

message: ===Australia: The Legend of Billy Sing===
A television mini-series based on the book, The Legend of Billy Sing, is in post-production as of 2010.Mini series on our Billy Sing Whitsunday Times (2 July 2009). Retrieved on 26 May 2010. The production has attracted controversy due to the director's decision to cast actors of European ancestry in the roles of Sing and his father, since Sing's father was Chinese.Callick, R. (2010): Director slammed for 'white-out' of legendary Gallipoli sniper Billy Sing The Australian (6 May 2010). Retrieved on 26 May 2010.Bryant, N. (2010): Chinese Australians angry at Gallipoli TV casting BBC News (8 May 2010). Retrieved on 26 May 2010.Australia-China Youth Association: Media release regarding the legend of Billy Sing (13 May 2010). Retrieved on 26 May 2010.Dunn, M. (2010): Sing film under fire The Great Southern Star (18 May 2010). Retrieved on 31 May 2010.Malkin, B. (2010): Row over 'whiting out' of Chinese hero in new TV show Telegraph (6 May 2010). Retrieved on 4 June 2010. Federal Queensland Liberal MP Don Cameron stated it was "tragically wrong" to have the bi-racial Chinese Australian played by a white person.http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/director-slammed-for-white-out-of-legendary-gallipoli-sniper/story-e6frg6nf-1225862770626
===France: Alexandre Dumas===
French Black actors and anti-racism campaigners were upset that the white star, Gérard Depardieu was cast as Alexandre Dumas, the country's biggest national hero with mixed blood. The blonde, blue-eyed Depardieu French star darkened his skin and wore a black wig in L'Autre Dumas, directed by Safy Nebbou. The producers made it clear that a big name white French actor would attract more cinema goers than a lesser known mixed race French thespianhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1252278/Gerard-Depardieu-sparks-race-row-darkens-skin-wears-black-wig-play-mixed-race-author-Alexandre-Dumas.html Dumas's paternal grandmother was a former Haitian slave. His father, a Napoleonic-era general, was deemed to be a Caribbean "negro". In his lifetime, the novelist was mocked for his African features and he called himself "un nègre".http://timescorrespondents.typepad.com/charles_bremner/2010/02/dumas-movie-starts-row-over-black-depardieu-.html
EDIT conflict or deleted?
Nemogbr (talk) 16:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: International Examples

message: French Black actors and anti-racism campaigners were upset that the white star, Gérard Depardieu was cast as Alexandre Dumas, the country's biggest national hero with mixed blood. The blonde, blue-eyed Depardieu French star darkened his skin and wore a black wig in L'Autre Dumas, directed by Safy Nebbou. The producers made it clear that a big name white French actor would attract more cinema goers than a lesser known mixed race French thespianhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1252278/Gerard-Depardieu-sparks-race-row-darkens-skin-wears-black-wig-play-mixed-race-author-Alexandre-Dumas.html Dumas's paternal grandmother was a former Haitian slave. His father, a Napoleonic-era general, was deemed to be a Caribbean "negro". In his lifetime, the novelist was mocked for his African features and he called himself "un nègre".http://timescorrespondents.typepad.com/charles_bremner/2010/02/dumas-movie-starts-row-over-black-depardieu-.html
EDIT conflict or deleted?
Nemogbr (talk) 16:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: France: Alexandre Dumas

message: The above talk entries attempt to discuss why this or that film should be included in the article, but I think that is going at it backwards. Wikipedia articles must be built from the bottom up, from reliable, verifiable sources. I propose that the sources which have been brought to the article be examined for suitability. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You read the answer wrong. This was *before* the film aired. This was December 2009. He *assumed* that they would find young Asian actors for the parts and *not* alienate the fans. So in another words he didn't think it *would* end up in white wash, but it did.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Actually, if the source is deemed to be well reported upon, then the source is deemed reliable. In this case, he is put in Newspapers quite a bit... so he counts. Check before shooting it down.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

text: He does, line 1: "Asian Americans, I hear your agitation. For the past few weeks, you and your allies in ethnic correctness have clogged the blogosphere with complaints about the casting in M. Night Shyamalan's live-action movie version of the Nickelodeon animated series Avatar: The Last Airbender."
Wikipedia does not require the "word" used in the article for it to count. I think you mistake that. Rather a demonstration of the definition. This is definitely a demonstration of the definition.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion of references

message: *http://www.mcgilldaily.com/articles/20762
Who is Hannah Freeman, the author? She appears to post only occasionally at McGill Daily. How reliable can this work be; how expert the author? Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: McGill Daily

message: *http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=ANSWERMAN&date=20091223
Ebert answers a direct question, posed by a reader, about whitewashing in The Last Airbender. Ebert says it is wrong, as there are many Asian actors who could have satisfied the expectations of the Nickelodeon TV show's loyal fans. He does not say that the film is a whitewash. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You read the answer wrong. This was *before* the film aired. This was December 2009. He *assumed* that they would find young Asian actors for the parts and *not* alienate the fans. So in another words he didn't think it *would* end up in white wash, but it did.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Roger Ebert

message: *http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/21mitblackjack.php
No author = unreliable, unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Chasing the Frog

message: *http://www.asianweek.com/2008/04/11/asian-celebrities-jeff-ma-linkin-park-supermodel-spitting-mad-naomi-campbell/
*http://www.asianweek.com/2008/04/07/21-film-ben-mezrich-cards-las-vegas-not-the-first-film-to-%E2%80%98whitewash%E2%80%99-our-history/
My computer does not like these sites. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Asian Week

message: *http://tech.mit.edu/V125/N43/43vegas.html
Brief mention of Asian characters switched to white ones by film producers. No mention of the word "whitewashing". Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: MIT's ''The Tech''

message: *http://www.enterprisenews.com/entertainment/x1565506635 
"Page not found". Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The Enterprise

message: *http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/27/DDQEVM8MQ.DTL
No discussion of whitewashing. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: SF Gate

message: *http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2008-03-25-jeff-ma-21_N.htm
No discussion of whitewashing or race. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: USA Today

message: *http://www.manaa.org/twentyonedvd.html
This unsigned press release can be used in a limited fashion, to describe the position taken by MANAA that they consider the film 21 to have been subject to whitewashing. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Media Action Network for Asian Americans

message: *http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_movies_blog/2010/06/working-the-refs-protestors-pepper-critics-re-last-airbender.html
Unreliable blog entry posted by "otownrog". No good. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Orlando Sentinel

message: *http://io9.com/5512941/who-sent-out-the-last-airbender-casting-call-asking-for-caucasian-actors-producer-responds
Author signed only "Meredith"; unverifiable. No discussion of whitewash, though she mentions racebending. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: io9.com

message: *http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2008/12/10/shyamalan-casts/
This article does not discuss whitewash. No relevance. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Hollywood Insider

message: *http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2009/02/02/slumdog-star-dev-patel-joins-jackson-rathbone-for-the-last-airbender/
This blog entry by Elisabeth Rappe does not discuss whitewash. No relevance. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: MTV

message: *http://www.latinoreview.com/news/exclusive-a-look-at-the-live-action-akira-remake-akira-part-1-5678
Article is by "El Mayimbe", an unverifiable author. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Latino Review

message: *http://www.whitsundaytimes.com.au/story/2009/07/02/mini-series-on-our-billy-sing/
Anonymous, unreliable and unverifiable. Worse yet, it has nothing about whitewashing. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Whitsunday Times

message: *http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/director-slammed-for-white-out-of-legendary-gallipoli-sniper/story-e6frg6nf-1225862770626
This looks reliable to me. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The Australian

message: *http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8670531.stm
This looks reliable to me. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: BBC News

message: *http://www.acya.org.au/?q=node/351
This story is signed by the Australia-China Youth Association, presumably one or more of its executives. It can be used in a limited way regarding Billy Sing in the TV miniseries about Gallipoli. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Australia-China Youth Association

message: *http://www.thestar.com.au/Public/Template2/ThreadView.aspx?tid=31491
The article here was posted by somebody calling themselves SiteAdmin. Unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The Great Southern Star

message: *http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/7685247/Row-over-whiting-out-of-Chinese-hero-in-new-TV-show.html
Writer Bonnie Malkin of Sydney finds that the story of Billy Sing in a TV miniseries on Gallipoli was subject to "whiting out" by its director. This looks reliable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The Telegraph

message: *http://www.coldfusionvideo.com/archives/guyver-the-1991/
Nathan Shumate, the reviewer, is not a reliable source. He has no notability. In discussing The Guyver, he does not use the term "whitewash" or even "white", so what he says cannot be extrapolated into this article. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Cold Fusion

message: *http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/103238761263493.htm
Anonymous, unreliable, unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Comics Bulletin

message: *http://locusmag.com/2005/Issues/01LeGuin.html
Of course, Ursula K. Le Guin is an expert observer. She notes that her characters were not all white, but were played by mostly white people. However, she also says that her characters are from a fantasy world in which there are no Asians or Africans or American Indians, etc. Her characters have different colors but they are not members of identifiable Earth races. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Locus

message: *http://slate.com/id/2111107/
*http://slate.com/id/2111107/%20%22A%20Whitewashed%20Earthsea
These two URLs result in the same article, a reworking of Le Guin's Locus article, intended for Slate. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Slate.com

message: *http://www.racialicious.com/2008/09/10/samurai-girl-premieres/
This post is written by somebody calling himself "Angry Asian Man". Unreliable and unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, if the source is deemed to be well reported upon, then the source is deemed reliable. In this case, he is put in Newspapers quite a bit... so he counts. Check before shooting it down.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Racialicious

message: *http://blog.mtviggy.com/2009/08/03/king-of-fighters-another-white-actor-plays-an-asian-guy/
This post is written by somebody calling himself "Angry Asian Man". Unreliable and unverifiable. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: MTViggy.com

message: *http://www.drunkduck.com/The_Weapon/index.php?p=280260
This URL is a copyright violation of an image, and has no textual content except for follow up posts. Unreliable, unverifiable, anonymous. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Drunk Duck

message: *http://www.channelapa.com/2009/09/asian-american-character-weapon-played.html
Anonymous post, unreliable and unverifiable. Out it goes. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Channel APA

message: *http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/herocomplex/2010/05/racebending.html?cid=6a00d8341c630a53ef013481788b0d970c
*http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/01/entertainment/la-et-air-bender-20100701
I couldn't access the second URL, but the first is by Chris Lee, and is a longer version of Lee's article which appeared in the L.A. Times Calendar section. Lee discusses the organizations that are accusing The Last Airbender of whitewashing and racebending. This source does not say the film is a whitewash, but it supports his observation that organizations exist which do call it that. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Los Angeles Times

message: *http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,2000996,00.html
Author Richard Corliss does not mention the word whitewash in his bashing of the film The Last Airbender. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He does, line 1: "Asian Americans, I hear your agitation. For the past few weeks, you and your allies in ethnic correctness have clogged the blogosphere with complaints about the casting in M. Night Shyamalan's live-action movie version of the Nickelodeon animated series Avatar: The Last Airbender."
Wikipedia does not require the "word" used in the article for it to count. I think you mistake that. Rather a demonstration of the definition. This is definitely a demonstration of the definition.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Time

message: Based on the above, I'd restore, Le Guin, probably discount Ebert (get quotes from *after* the date), count the Angry Asian Man (I know he's shown up in the Los Angeles Times. So he's considered reliable--blog or no. Like Huffington Post is considered reliable despite being a blog.) Double check your discounting. Avatar should be restored. A source is considered good if it's reported on. Double check that. Wikipedia rules do not state that one has to have _the word_ in the article for it to count in examples. It has to instead, show examples of the definition. For example, if you are debating the Bible, if the person calls it the Holy Book, then it doesn't count? If one talks about birds and mentions a hawk specifically, and doesn't mention that it's a bird, does it not count as an example. Please try again.
Actually submit Ebert: 
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100630/REVIEWS/100639999
:"Shyamalan has failed. His first inexplicable mistake was to change the races of the leading characters; on television Aang was clearly Asian, and so were Katara and Sokka, with perhaps Mongolian and Inuit genes. Here they're all whites. This casting makes no sense because (1) It's a distraction for fans of the hugely popular TV series, and (2) all three actors are pretty bad. I don't say they're untalented, I say they've been poorly served by  Shyamalan and the script."
If you couple that with his belief that they *wouldn't* whitewash the film and corrected himself here, it's a clear example. You just have to expound it correctly with the dates. (See he retracted his belief here.)
--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reup the sources