Talk:Meteor Crater

message: What did the first Americans call the Meteor Crater? Two different guides at the Visitor's Center told me they didn't have a name for it, but that's just not possible.--Hugh7 (talk) 05:52, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Indigenous Name?

message: Hi Pharos—you wanted the article to start with "Barringer Crater is a famous impact crater..." instead of "The Barringer Crater is a famous impact crater...", and suggested I look at other crater names. A brief glance at the articles on famous craters finds that most of them start the way I suggested:
*"The Manson impact crater is located..."
*"The Chesapeake Bay impact crater was formed by..."
*"The Haughton impact crater is located..."
*"The Sudbury Basin is the second largest impact crater..."
*"The Silverpit crater is located..."
*"The Rio Cuarto craters are..."
*"The Weaubleau-Osceola structure is thought..."
*"The Nördlinger Ries is a depression..."
Indeed, this is a style employed when talking about the majority of geological formations:
*"The Catskill Mountains are not..."
*"The Rocky Mountains are a..."
*"The Grand Canyon is a colorful..."
*"The Amazon River of South America is..."
...and so on so forth.
Also note that the Barringer Crater website, http://www.barringercrater.com/science/ starts their article with "The Barringer Meteorite Crater is a gigantic hole...". The point isn't whether its name is "Barringer Crater" or "The Barringer Crater", obviously it's the former, but when discussing the Crater and starting an article on it, as in the case of the hundreds of articles on similar subjects in this project, you generally start with "The Barringer Crater".—Asbestos | Talk 13:51, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have taught SAT and TOEFL for 6 years. There is no difference between "The Barringer Crater..." and "Barringer Crater..." except that "the" can emphasize the uniqueness of the proper noun, e.g. "The Empire State Building..." is standard usage probably b/c nobody ever calls it "Empire State Building." Generally speaking, if an article is called for, you must use "the" in this case (unique proper noun). Dudeman1st (talk) 17:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of definite article 

message: After reading about Ivy Mike, I'm a little confused why a 10.4 megaton explosion would eject 80,000,000 tons of soil while this much smaller explosion (2.5 megatons according to the article) "dug out 175 million tons of rock."
Also the size of the explosion seems like it might be off. The crater left by Ivy Mike is 1.6km in diameter and 50m deep; and similarly Tswaing crater is [1km in diameter, 100m deep], and also [estimated at 10 megatons]. Proportionally speaking, shouldn't Barringer Crater also register in the ballpark of 10 megatons? I'm having a hard time believing it was only 2.5 megatons with a radius of 1.2km's and a depth of 170m.
Tswaing Crater: 1.1km 100m ~10megatons
Ivy mike: 1.6km 50m 10.2megatons
Meteor Crater: 1,200m 170m 2.5-6.5 megaton
The math currently works out to about 4 megatons for Meteor crater, because the Nature team downed the velocity from 16 km/s to 12.8 km/s and severely reduced the size of the meteorite.
IE/
For a roughly spherical object:
4/3 * pi * Density * Radius^3 = Mass
So,
4/3 * pi * 3 {tonnes / m^3} * 25{m}^3 = 196,349 tonnes
Kinetic Energy = (Mass * Velocity^2)/2
So,
(196,349 {tonnes} * 12,800 {m/sec}^2) / 2 = 1.608 * 10^13 {tonnes*(m/sec)^2} or 10^13 joules.
and since,
1 kilogram of TNT releases 10^8/25 = 4 * 10^6 Joules of energy
(1.608 * 10^13 joules) / (4 * 10^6 joules) = ~4 megatons
I just find this to be terribly suspect, since we have real world data of what a 10.2 megaton explosion does and the two look virtually the same. Xtraeme 11:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can’t comment on the actual numbers, but Ivy Mike was detonated at surface so most of the energy was dissipated into the atmosphere. In contrast, impact craters are produced by projectiles that penetrate some depth (variable depending on angle of impact, velocity, density, strength of projectile and target) into the earth before exploding, so almost all of the energy is deposited into the earth and therefore should produce a deeper crater with more ejecta for the same energy. The best comparison would be between underground nuclear tests and impact craters of similar energy. With impact craters, the target properties are also quite important. For example I’d expect the same energy yield to produce a smaller crater in the Tswaing area (strong granite) compared to the Barringer/Meteor crater (weaker sedimentary rocks). --Zamphuor 12:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The above calc seems to use a density of 3 tonnes/m^3, but for an iron-nickel meteorite shouldn't that be nearer 8 tonnes/m^3 (thus upping the mass and energy) ? - Rod57 (talk) 07:32, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody knows; explosive power is pretty easy to estimate, but velocity and mass vary with different sources. Here's a university article claiming that the asteroid in space had a diameter of 30 meters or larger. http://uanews.org/printview/2595 UA News Geogene (talk) 16:15, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of meteorite, explosive power, and debris from impact 

message: Let's not overdo the number of images - four images, one per section, is quite enough! Also, please consider what value the images actually bring to the article. -- ChrisO 09:26, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Two of the image captions say that the mass of the meteorite is buried under the crater, while the article says that nearly all of it was vaporized on impact. Another image is captioned "Meteor crater", as if it were some other crater than the Barringer Crater. These captions need work.—Wdfarmer (talk) 01:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: For a subject with so much published research on it, this page is woefully under-cited. If you are the one with access to these materials, please cite at least once per paragraph. The date of human inhabitation is unnecessary and both highly speculative and controversial. Dudeman1st (talk) 18:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cites needed 

message: Hello,
Where can I find a very precise topographic map of the Barringer Crater ?
Thank you ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.37.125 (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Topographic map 

message: If someone were willing to actually visit the Meteor Crater (which I did about a month ago, before looking at this article), a source of good citations would be the museum itself at the Visitor's Center.
Also, at the museum there is a display that challenges the assertion in this article that "Very little of the meteorite remained within the pit that it had excavated." The display shows a significant chunk of the meteorite buried about as far underground as the diameter of the crater, along an angled path from the center of the crater that indicates the angle of the original impact. --Mosher (talk) 16:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citing the museum at the visitor's center 

message: BTW, the article was incorrect in stating that the BM Crater is located "35 miles" from Flagstaff. I was just there 6 days ago and drove there directly to and from Flagstaff. The distance is 58 miles. A simple check of Google Maps will confirm that. Ronstock (talk) 19:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check your google maps again. You're way off. Americasroof (talk) 04:54, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mileage from Flagstaff

message: What caused the square-with-rounded-corners shape of this crater? Other craters are more or less round (circular). And indeed if a lot of energy is released at one point without any explicit directional guidance, one would expect its effects to be non-directional, i.e. equal in all directions, thus producing a circular crater. If the meteor impacted at an angle, I could see how the crater might be elliptical, but this one has a definite square shape. Any explanation? Rennybosch (talk) 02:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Erosion? it is quite big, and subject for lot of tourist attention, so one would think it could be caused by that. any other ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.115.44.58 (talk) 11:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The crater was originally hemispherical but the walls of the crater have slumped over time. The floor you see today is actually a mass of rubble some 300m deep covering the "true" floor of the crater. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

text: A sentence (with ref) explaining this was added to the article in May 2009. The non-circular shape is attributed to pre-existing large-scale faulting at the impact site. Although the explosive force was equal in all directions, the rock strata were not equally strong in all directions, thus a non-circular crater was the result. Piperh (talk) 08:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is it not round? 

message: This seems interesting. If the prevailing wind is from one direction, they may have been trying to climb out the wrong side. If the wind from all directions went toward the center, it had to go somewhere and they should have been able to spiral climb in the center of the crater and escape. Not that pilots don't always think of things like that. The C150 with two people has an abysmal climb rate, of course. The wording of the last sentence could be improved - they didn't continue to fly in the same aircraft while pointing out the wreckage to visitors. 199.125.109.123 (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A ref has been added to a somewhat detailed accident report for this crash. Apparently the plane did not run out of fuel (in fact, it caught fire upon crashing) nor is there explicit mention of downdrafts. My understanding (as a layman, not a licensed pilot) of spiral flight is that the rate of climb will be less than in straight-and-level flight because the lift vector of the wings is no longer vertical. There would be a limit to how tight a spiral can be flown before rate of climb would become negative. A high bank angle combined with low air speed needed for a tight spiral is an invitation to aerodynamic stall -- which is what happened in this case. Piperh (talk) 09:12, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Inability to climb out in a C150

message: The article reads: "He persisted nonetheless and sought to bolster his theory by uncovering the remains of the meteorite"
Just to be clear, Barringer "persisted" and "sought" to make a great deal of money mining iron and platinum group elements from the remains of the meteorite. That was the purpose of his explorations there, it was what he told his investors they were doing, and it's why and how he filed a mineral claim on the crater, which was on Federal land.
There's nothing wrong with smart people making a good living. And Barringer was a very sharp man. But it isn't like he was drilling on an NSF grant or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geogene (talk • contribs) 16:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barringer Crater Mining Company 

message: Someone may want to apply crater template

--YakbutterT (talk) 23:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Crater Infobox? 

message: It seems this crater was known as coon mountain, and is cited as such in some literature. Indeed, the redirect seems to point here, but shouldn't it be mentioned in the article as well? HrundiEuphorion (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should coon mountain be mentioned in the article 

message: You guys got good pictures!
Good job!KF5LLG (talk) 12:23, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy Moly 

message: Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that :File:Meteor Crater - Arizona.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on April 18, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-04-18. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! —howcheng {chat} 17:33, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Meteor Crater - Arizona.jpg]] to appear as POTD soon 

message: What was the actual effect of the strike? So far all this article states is a massive crater was formed by a huge explosion. And? What was the blast radius? Did the strike change global weather conditions? Need more to be done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.145.118.197 (talk) 12:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, there's really not much known about those effects, because they don't leave lasting evidence. We can speculate, based on the size of the crater and the approximate period it happened in, but that's not terribly helpful in the long run.—The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  More work needed! 

message: Back in 2009 a contributor to this Talk page ('rosetta' 17:40, 16 June 2009 (GMT)) asked if the 300,000 tonnes cited as the mass of the meteorite was not possibly a "typo." Many references cite a weight / mass of "30 metric tons" (see www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/... and meteorites.wustl.edu/ as well as the Wikipedia article "Canyon Diablo (meteorite)") for the pre-impact meteor / meteorite. The poster, 'rosetta' never received a relevant response to this question / concern so I thought I'd bring it up again here. This is not my area of expertise but, since there does seem to be some disagreement / some ambiguity, I thought it might be 'safer' to remove the explicit reference to 300,000 tonnes for now since it is not needed to make the point about 1/2 of the meteorite's bulk being vaporized during its descent.
:"...It is believed that about half of the impactor's 300,000 metric tons (330,000 short tons) bulk was vaporized during its descent, before it hit the ground...." 
I hope more knowledgeable editors can find an appropriate reference / citation to add to the article if the mass is to be re-instated. Pugetbill (talk) 17:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total Known Mass / weight of meteor 

message: I'm aware that the meteorite is called "Diablo Canyon", but I can find no authority that the crater was ever so-called. GNIS gives eight variant names, but Diablo Canyon isn't one (Meteor Crater Detail at GNIS).
Also, I can find no support for JP Barringer's (ref 2) statement that natural features are named after the nearest post office. The GNIS policy says no such thing (US BGN Principles, Policies, and Procedures). If it was ever true, I don't know (though I doubt it considering the purpose of the BGN); however, is JP Barringer a reliable authority for this information? The source is merely a transcription of a speech he gave, so a primary source for all intents and purposes.Richigi (talk) 15:52, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diablo Canyon crater? 

message: Is the name "Canyon Diablo Crater" a former (previous) or formal (official) name? DHN (talk) 18:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: According to GNIS, it is neither formally nor formerly called Diablo. I requested a citation for the claim back in November; still haven't seen one. Richigi (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Talking two different things here, the change I reverted was in the caption to the NASA image :File:Landsat Meteor Crater.jpg which now states ...Diablo Canyon for which the meteorite is formerly named . The Canyon Diablo (meteorite) The ref there states: This is an OFFICIAL meteorite name. this reference. It is the name of the meteorite, not the name of the crater. Vsmith (talk) 11:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Vsmith is right, the meteorite is named for Diablo Canyon, currently not formerly. The caption is about the meteorite. I just removed the adjective altogether since a qualifier isn't really necessary. Richigi (talk) 17:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former or formal 

message: The current infobox map shows the location as being in Coconino County, when it should be in Navajo County. Could someone who knows how to adjust these maps please correct that? Backspace (talk) 09:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The crater is in Coconino County per USGS Flagstaff 30x60 quad. Winslow, about 25 km to the east, is just east of the county line in Navajo County. Vsmith (talk) 13:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I just recently edited the article to reflect the point that it is located in Coconino County, but then immediately undid my edit because of a lot of conflicting evidence. All three relevant categories in the article said/say that it is in Navajo County, when I could see by the map (assuming that it was correct) that it was in Coconino County. I have actually been there, and at the time believed it to be in Coconino County, which is the primary reason that I did the original edit. Based upon your assessment I shall have to redo my undo. This will happen forthwith. Backspace (talk) 20:54, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch, I hadn't noticed the erroneous categories. Vsmith (talk) 22:54, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map shows location incorrectly in Coconino County 

message: The “Basket meteorite” that is mentioned in Revision as of 13:44, June 16, 2013 is for real. It is likely not notable enough to be included in this article. However people interested in what the “Basket meteorite” is and how it relates to Meteor Crater can go to and read either Long-lost meteorite comes home to Ariz. by John Faherty, The Arizona Republic, March 24, 2009 or page 7 of Starscan, Johnson Space Center Astronomical Society, Volume 25, Number 4 April 2009 Paul H. (talk) 01:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Basket" Meteorite 

message: The Chesapeake bay crater article mentions that it is the largest impact crater in the US. Yet this article also claims Meteor Crater to be, and refers to a dubious (no measurements listed, nor a comparison) webpage mentioning this fact. However, the size of the two impact craters is so drastically different that it's obvious that the Chesapeake bay crater is the largest in the US, and this article is wrong to claim so. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_impact_crater  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.92.167.159 (talk) 20:44, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not the largest in the US?! 

message: Geologist George P. Merrill found in 1908 that the rock layers underneath the crater are undisturbed, which does not fit the standard bolide impact model.
An electrical explanation of the crater envisions an approaching bolide entering the strongest region of Earth’s electric field and, under prodigious internal electrical stresses, beginning to discharge explosively and to fragment. Before reaching the surface it is likely to have already blown apart, for the same reason that comets have exploded millions of miles from the Sun and the Tunguska bolide exploded high in the earth’s atmosphere. 
The apparent "reverse" stratification of the debris distributed by the event fits an electrical discharge model. A rotating, crater-producing electric arc will work down from the surface through layers of soil, spraying the material across a wide region.  This could mean that the debris field would be laid down roughly in layers that reversed the strata of the surrounding terrain. Barringer himself found that “different types of rocks in the rim and on the surrounding plain appeared to have been deposited in the opposite order from their order in the underlying rock beds.”  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattsileo (talk • contribs) 12:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You're forgetting the high concentration of meteoritic material in the Crater's ejecta field. Citing Merrill from 1908 doesn't necessarily mean the strata really are undisturbed. Geologic survey techniques have gotten more sophisticated in the past 108-years. Why not search out considerably more recent findings using seismic wave mechanics to accurately image the layers?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.223.130.32 (talk) 01:15, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the evidence of electrical discharge event? 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: While the section was added in good faith, and so I'm reluctant to revert it without discussing it first, it has some significant problems. Chief among these are the lack of any supporting citations and the sense that it violates WP:OR.  I'll remove the section if these problems aren't addressed promptly. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 23:12, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  effects of collision 

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