Talk:Croatia/Archive 1

message: Someone anonymous seems to insist that Croatia is not located on the Balkan. Can anyone dig out any proof for this claim, or other way round proof to convice the anonymous? -- andy 13:31, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, the country does have three distinct geographical, historical and cultural influences, so I've updated the opening paragraph to include all three of them, not just one (and one that is the most negative at that). --Shallot 12:20, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Balkans

message: Following reference moved from article: olivier 11:56, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: CIA reference

message: I am looking at things that I know intimately to try and gauge the worth of this enciklopedia. Gathering from this page about Croatia I must say that if the rest of it is like this, then it's on the verge of useless crap written by people who's only purpose is to further their POV... full of crap...
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.236.52.93 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 14 August 2003.
:Then why don't you step forward and list the points which who think are POV, so we can discuss them? Or change them directly if you are sure it will be more neutral afterwards. This site lives by constructive criticism, not from complaining. -- andy 11:32, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: User from 67.39.198.184 wrote: National, endemic flower is kockavica, (Fritillaria meleagris), whose checkered surface is part of the national symbol.
: Where is the proof of such a connection? At least I never heard of the flower being the reason for the šahovnica. --Shallot 02:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Fritillaria

message: Also, who is Ivan Schwarz and what exactly do they have with the invention of the airplane? Google can't find me any answer on this whatsoever... --Shallot 15:58, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Schwartz airplane

message: I've removed the adjective "small" from the first sentence because it is too relative to be of any value. You'll notice that Slovenia, Slovakia or Bosnia don't have the adjective. Even Luxembourg doesn't have it! That said, I think this is a good page and I'm going to use it for the Croatian version. -- Zmaj 13:50, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO that's only a reason to fix the .si, .sk, .ba and .lu pages, but hey, if no one else complains... --Shallot 14:01, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "small"

message: Note that I've listed Italy not just because it's accross the sea but because the territorial waters touch off the Istrian coast. (This is regardless of how the border is drawn in the bay of Piran, too.) --Shallot 23:16, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The territorial waters "touching" is part of the border dispute (Slovenia claiming access to international waters) so I added disputed in brackets. edolen1 14:26, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's noted in the appropriate place, History of Dalmatia, which has three sentences about it. It's too short, of course, but you can add the information you have. There are many more details in the Istria article, which has eight sentences - a whole paragraph. So you see, Wikipedia has noted that fact. Maybe you could even start the Esuli article. --Zmaj 07:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Italy as neighbour

message: Marco V, would you please explain what makes this link of yours more worthy of listing than other such pages? The official such page (the one from the tourist board) should suffice. I was not under the impression that Wikipedia was a link repository. --Joy [shallot] 14:49, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  kroatiehrvatska link 

message: anon wrote in commit log: Before Yugoslavia it was a Part of Austria-Hungary , 1000 Yars ago a part of Rome...;-) It´s not importand what it was before.
: Perhaps not, but this is recent history and it's a standard for former Yugoslav republics on Wikipedia for this to be mentioned in the lead section. I will rephrase it a bit, though. --Joy [shallot] 08:40, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: early .yu mention

message: Neutrality, that data is rather obsolete, it doesn't account for the last census that was held in 2001 (!).
On a more general note, there's little need for that much expansion in here... perhaps I'm trying to simplify, but the exact percentages are in the Demographics of Croatia article. --Joy [shallot] 10:04, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  demographics data 

message: Okay, Cantus, what part of my log message did you fail to understand?
Your version says:
* Official languages | Croatian; Italian also spoken in Istria county
And, no, that's not the meaning, Italian is not only spoken but a co-official language there. Languages aren't official because they're spoken, they're official because they're made official by law. Many other languages are spoken elsewhere in Croatia, but they're not official.
The previous version:
* Official languages | Croatian (with Italian in Istria county)
This avoids the extra verbiage and makes it obvious that Italian is additionally official in that county. And that's all it needs to say.
And, by the way, it would help if you read the WP Countries page. Namely those parts that say "Not all countries are the same, and not everything can be pushed into a framework in the same way", and "This structure is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question". --Joy [shallot] 03:11, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  official language thing 

message: I am a victim of the evil Ustashi war plans in 1991-1995. I don't know why you don't mention any of the ethnic cleansing activities that Croatia did to the Serb Borderlander population. You only mentioned "four years of bitter fighting against the Serbs" and "rebel territories". I lost my sister and several other siblings in the war, as well as my home and ALL material ownership. I am now forced to live in Serbia and Montenegro, struggling to survive (since I have no apartment, but have to rent a private one). A stranger now lives in my apartment, my two houses were ruthlessly burned to the ground and my estates destroyed. My grandfather's sheep were used as practise targets; and the area spanning my mother's parents, the place where my close family lived and my father's parents is huge, meaning that those actions were forced all over Croatia. I can't return to my homeland, since there is no more a place to return to. When we payed a visit to the man living in our apartmant, it was VERY rough... he threatened to call the police if we would ever return. You MUST add at least something more about it. I hate to see that unjustice will rule EVERYWHERE.
:I see it only fitting that you put something in the article or AT LEAST, respond to me. (P. S. I have been waiting for quitte a long while)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 147.91.1.41 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 11 July 2005.
: I'll skip over a few of the issues I've already responded to in your comment at Talk:Republic of Serbian Krajina - 'evil Ustashi war plans' and such.
: Four years of bitter fighting and rebel territories is a summary. If you click through to History of Croatia, and then on to History of modern Croatia, you can see much more information, including the 550K/300K refugees during the early stages of the war, and the 140K at the end.
: If you click through to Demographics of Croatia, there's a discussion of population movements and a fairly long description and history of issues facing the refugees from Croatia.
: We can't afford to get into the gory details of various important events because that would likely evolve into a point-of-view-related flamewar. Instead, country articles summarize, and rely on the readers to click on the links to read more.
: --Joy [shallot] 19:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: OH, OH

message: OK, the article History has some unnacurate info, for Austro-Hungary had existed from 1868/1867 (depends how you look upon the events) until it was dissolved in 1918, after the First World War! Who wrote that info?
:See: Austria-Hungary. Also, new comments go on the bottom. El_C 12:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. You can still sign your name with four tildes without being registered (though registring is better; has advantages). Now, as per your claims, you should submitt a scholarly source in support of these. At the event, 1867–1918 is noted in the Austria-Hungary article. El_C 22:39, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Austro-Hungarian Empire

message: Who keeps deleting the History info on Croatia? It's really annoying, so just say what's wrong in the discussion page. That's what it's for, after all!
Me, and others (you could tell who by the page's history), and not the history, just your changes to it. Briefly: 1. As I already said above, new comments go on the bottom. 2. Please sign your name at the end of comments (by typing ~~~~. 3. Please review WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR policies. 4. Please try to copyedit your changes prior to inserting them into the article space. 5. Please make judicious use of edit summaries.  Thanks, El_C 22:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'll do my best, and I did read them, but I hope that you stop deleting useful info now. 22:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That was a fast read(!) Please adhere to these policies and I will cease deleting info (arguments of usefulness or lack thereof notwithstanding). You may find it instructive to submit your changes on the talk page first. El_C 22:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree in complete about the History part, but the Army of Croatia was involved in the fighting against the moslem Bosniaks. Should I delete the info about the last offensive against the Bosnian Serbs too? ('cause that too was fighting on the soil of Bosnia and Herzegovina) Emperor, 1:06, 15th July 2005 147.91.1.43 23:07, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's true, but all the intricate details still belong to the history article, we can't stuff everything into the summary text. I've added much of this text over there now. --Joy [shallot]
Thanks forever, Joy, I think that wikipedia should be proud to have a user like you. You are, by far, the smartest and most truthful person that I have ever seen on this discussion page. Emperor 147.91.1.43 23:17, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Why thank you :) While I'm at it, could I interest you in picking a username and logging in? That way you'd still be anonymous, but would have some uniform name (you currently use two IP addresses so we can't really address you like that either). There are other benefits too, such as having a watchlist etc, and all it costs is a couple of web cookies. --Joy [shallot] 09:05, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: The external links section in this article is huge. Can someone who knows the subject check and trim the list? See Wikipedia:External links for criteria. Rl 13:07, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *Excellent. Thanks. Rl 21:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: Ok, we settled these facts (I find kindah releived, we have been arguing for weeks). And I think that there should be a link to Serbia and Montenegro due to the fact that two countries' connection in the history. And, do you know how we learn medieval History in here? 
1. the Serbian Principalities (Raška, Bosna, Zeta (Duklja), Travunija sa Konavlima, Paganija (Neretljanska zemlja) and  Zahumlje (Hum)
2. the History of the Macedonian Samuilo's Empire
3. the first Bulgarian Empire
4. the History of Grand Moravia
5. the History of Carinthia
6. the History of Croatia
7. the Byzantine History
8. the History of England and France
9. the Holy Roman history
10. the History of Hungary
11. the Spanish Reqonquista
12. the Crusade Wars
13. the History of Dubrovnik
14. the Russian Principalities
15. the Normans
16. Second Bulgarian Tsarinate
17. Serbia from Stephen Nemanja to it's fall to the Ottomans
18. New Byzantine Empire
19. Ottoman History
As you can see, we engulph ALL of the peoples on our lands (not undermining the uniqueness of the Ragusians) and YET keeping the History of our COUNTRIES as they REALLY ARE. In fact, seperating Dubrovnik from the History of Croatia (as well as other cases) show more RESPECT to those peoples. Emperor
: But how relevant are all those suzerainties and vassalages to the history of Dubrovnik? You really feel a need to stuff all that into this summary? --Joy [shallot]
:: Absolutly not, just the factions in which Ragusion (Dubrovnik) was originally their part (i. e. Byzantium (Rome), Duklja (Serbia) and Venetia)) And yes, I concider the articls about Croatia too small. It reffers to the recent war ages like it is entire Croatian history, barely even mentioning the great Kings Zvonimir, Tomislav.... etc. the articles are far too short. And also, a link to Serbia, and if possible, Montenegro, is needed. HolyRomanEmperor 16:53, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hm. Apparently I mistook you for User:Sargeras, and left a message at User talk:Sargeras#New_replies. Please see there first. --Joy [shallot] 21:19, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Where did I mention that? It depends on context. Overall, many more did. --Joy [shallot]
And I am considered unregistered again? 212.62.33.4 09:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Just log in at Special:Userlogin. --Joy [shallot] 11:27, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  OK, Joy 

message: Croats came to the Balkans when the first wave of Slavs came...they lead the way
The origin of Croats is traced in Poland and Ukraine and prior to that somewhere in Iran\
This is known and can be traced.....
The origin of Serbs is unknown, so can they be Croats too who came later to the Balkans under  a new name.....
This view is backed by the simple fact many common surnames such as Markovic, Pavlovic,  Petkovic etc... can be found in both countries in large numbers.
Both speak almost the same language.
Both took on religion much later after settlement in the Balkans. 
The hatred between the two only started when two brothers Radic of Croatain origin were shot in Belgrade ..before this the two were very close.....this stareted teh whole tit for tat eye for an eye hatred
Bosnia was first settled by Croats, when the Turks came they converted the large number of Croats into Muslims (now called Bosnians)...some Croats fled to Dalamatia while vacated house were occupied by Serbians....all 3 can live together and did for many years.
Croats have a large number of people who left Croatia to live in eg USA, Australia etc... names surnames got changed hence numbers are never 100% correct...What is know that behind the Irish Croats are 2nd most migrated people in the world and can be found in almost any country in the world.  
Eg New Zealand have the Croats as 2nd highest migrant group.
The link between Serbs, Croats and Bosnians is often hidden because of ethnic hatred of late esp 100 years or so....
There is proof that they are the same poeople and are very mixed over many years
DNA test would prove this..who is game to try after all both sides dont like the theory of ONE PEOPLE nor would they welcome any concrete proof  
In WW2 only a small number of Croats called Ustasi backed the Nazis...in fact most Croats were with Tito (also a Croat himself) and fought against the Nazis.
 
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.111.75.195 (talk • contribs) 05:55, 31 August 2005.
:I don't think so, my friend. The Serbian lineage is well-known.
:Tito was half-Croat and half-Slovenian HolyRomanEmperor 18:05, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments from 203.111.75.195

message: I am filing a request here that the Serbian language should be added next to the Italian in the list of regionally-spoken languages in Croatia. HolyRomanEmperor 18:05, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly, the list doesn't include regionally-spoken, but only official languages. In other words, neither Serbian nor Czech nor Hungarian nor any other language can be included because they're not official in any counties, like Italian is. I agree that it makes Italian stand out, but that's how things are. --Joy [shallot] 17:39, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian 

message: This needs to be spelled out - Croatia has no official national motto. Unofficial sayings don't count. --Joy [shallot] 17:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  motto 

message: Neoneo13, please convert :Image:Croatian_Flag.jpg and :Image:Croatia_coat.jpg into PNG format and upload them named :Image:Croatia_flag_large.png and :Image:Croatia_coat_small.png, respectively. That way, history is preserved, link from templates use the new images too, and the format isn't ludicrous (using a lossy compression format for a largely vector graphic is gratuitous). --Joy [shallot] 18:56, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  flag and coat