Talk:Diabetes/Archive 7

message: The article starts of saying "Diabetes mellitus is a metabolic disorder...", then the very next line this "It is a disease". Is it a disease or a disorder? A local hospital here claims that Diabetes is not a disease but a disorder. Idleguy 17:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have thought the two terms are synonymous. So, Idleguy, could you give us a definition of these terms? Google gives 59,000,000 entries for "Diabetes disease" and 4,800,000 for "Diabetes disorder", so let's scrap the "disorder", never mind the local hospital (you did not give us a source for that).  Andreas  (T) 14:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is definitely as metabolic disorder. I called it a disease in an essay recently and was told by an expert that it was wrong. SenorKristobbal 14:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It is something like HIV and AIDS. Recently everyone is classifying/calling it as a disorder. The hospital I was referring to is MV Diabetes, Chennai, (well renowned hospital) which says "Diabetes Mellitus is a chronic metabolic disorder." It does however lead to other diseases that affect the organs etc. Idleguy 15:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who was that expert? We need citable sources. Maybe the term metabolic disorder is a special term, as opposed to disorder alone. In any case, according to ICD 10-14, diabetes belongs to the class of "Endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases", so it is definitely a disease. Medline plus writes: "Diabetes is a life-long disease marked by high levels of sugar in the blood. " Similarly for emedicine. Only Britannica writes "a disorder of carbohydrate metabolism". Britannica: disease: an impairment of the normal state of an organism that interrupts or modifies its vital functions. [Britannica dictionary] disorder: an abnormal physical or mental condition. According to Britannica thesaurus, disorder is a synonym of disease. Imho just leave the opening phrase as it is.  Andreas  (T) 15:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, I really think it doesn't matter too much. I've checked some thesauruses and dictionaries, and disease and disorder are fairly interchangeable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.113.126.198 (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I think disease isn't P.C. much like you can't call people "diabetic" anymore its "people with diabetes". Disease suggests people are having a bad time of things which isn't necessarily the case. Disorder suggests there is a problem but its not going to have a huge effect on you. Stupid I know but thats how P.C. works we'll have to call it something else in a couple of years. SenorKristobbal 20:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has already been some back and forth on the question of diabetic vs people with diabetes. Please see prior talk (probably archived by now). It was resolved to the current article terminology. ww 06:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  contradictory opening lines. 

message: Note 1 has some cretinist vandalism, but I can't figure out how to delete it. Someone with some more familiarity with the mechanisms should correct it. Too bad the irresponsible and childish are ever present. ww 22:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see anything, but I've been removing a bunch of other vandalism.  I patrol this page from time to time.  Is it there there? --Mdwyer 02:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see it now, so someone must have removed it. But I don't see the edit. Mysteries of WP, eh? ww 01:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: vandalism in footnote requires removal

message: Transfered from the article:
:There is a major missconception that good management and proper treatment for this disease will not lead to a happy healthly life style. Constant checking of blood sugar level's and eating the right diet can help lead to a better lifestyle. Better treatment is coming very soon and ways to help manage your blood sugar levels are already here.Tarrom 09:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Misconception of health

message: I can find no reference saying that Harvard coined this term, but LOTS of references to the fact that "Shape Up America"  has tradmarked it. That being said, it really doesn't add anything to the article. NipokNek 19:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you've ever worked in a diabetes clinic you will find that there are many type II diabetics who are not obese at all. There is clearly more than just obesity to that fascinating condition. "Diabesity" is a nice neologism, but it is not useful in this article. JFW | T@lk 20:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought WP:V was one of the key deciders of article content not what one editor's evaluation of "useful" is...  Cburnett 21:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, Cburnett, I was addressing an additional problem. Even if the concept exists, do we need to mention it as a matter of course? JFW | T@lk 22:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I can easily verify who won the Super Bowl last year, but it wouldn't necessarily belong in an article about making footballs. NipokNek 21:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Please consider moving this to Diabetes mellitus type 2. JFW | T@lk 22:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, please don't add this anywhere. This kind of victim blaming isn't what people need. "Diabetes mellitus type 2 is presently of unknown etiology" which means that medical science has yet to figure out what causes it. Without some pretty stunning verification, statements like "...obesity is not the only cause of Type II but it is the leading cause" will not add anything of value to the article. NipokNek 15:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diabesity 

message: A user has tried to add this link twice.  I'm not convinced it is notable so I have reverted it twice.  Can anyone else assert its notability?  Mdwyer 18:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability of TexasDiabetesInstitute.com

message: It is rather disturbing to see no reference to people actually having been cured of diabetes. It is a fact. Patients I have and have had using 20 to 40 units of insuline a day have been monitoring their blood and as they changed their diet, had treatments with cadmium a precursorfor the enzyme that creates insuline, and acupuncture treatments, some using Alpha Lipoic Acid, saw the reduced need for insuline and lowered their intake accordingly. I requested they do so under the insulin prescribing doctor. Does chemical medicine have a monopoly and that is why research is not being done on alternatives. (user:michael)14:10 19 Feb 2007. HTW§§§§
:I would submit to you that a "reduced need for insuline" doesn't actually qualify as a cure, just a different form of treatment. NipokNek 17:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  By the way, I reverted this text because I'm apparently incapable of telling the difference between a talk page and an article page.  I'm very sorry for that, and I appreciate the other editors catching my mistake. --Mdwyer 18:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is common for people in the early stages of type 2 to achieve a remission of insulin needs after a period of better glucose control by using insulin, or by losing weight and doing other things to improve insulin sensitivity. This is certainly healthy and to be desired and (contrary to your conspiracy theory) is the first thing that doctors tell their patients. Unfortunately, it is difficult to predict the duration of improvement, and over time most people have continued loss of beta cell function. Calling this response to early treatment a "cure" is foolish and misleading, as is accusing doctors of prescribing drugs instead of letting their patients in on the "secret" (which you probably think is being closely guarded by the drug companies) that healthier eating and increased exercise might greatly improve their pancreatic function. PS: Acupuncture works for diabetes only if the needles contain insulin. alteripse 12:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No reference to Diabetes Cure (text moved here) 

message: At the risk of bloating the intro again, I have reinserted the important message that diabetes control is not just about the sugars and the HbA1c/glyco-Hb but equally at preventing end-organ damage through blood pressure control and weight management. In the prevention of nephropathy, BP control is more crucial still than glycemic control.
I have also added that diet and tablets are also treatments, to remove the impression that a diagnosis of diabetes means one is sentenced to subcutaneous insulin. With the incidence of DMII so much higher than DMI on the Western World I think this is a justifiable change.
There's probably still a lot of work to do, but the present format of the article is really not all too bad. Is there any hope of getting this MAJOR health topic up to WP:FA? JFW | T@lk 14:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we're near that point. it has been more or less stable for a while, modulo random bits being added now and then. You want to propose it? Now, DKA on the other hand is a very very long way from any quality levle... ww 07:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: I'd just like to point out that the treatment/management section of the article says absolutely nothing about insulin or other anti-diabetic drugs.
:I'll take a look. ww 10:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treatment/management 

message: I removed this paragraph:
:Currentley, there are several well researched herbs and nutritional supplements used for both the treatment and prevention of Types I and II Diabetes. Gymnema sylvestre, known for its bitter taste, has been shown to suppress glucose uptake, stimulate beta cell production in the pancreas, and improve insulin sensitivity in Type II Diabetes (source needed). Chromium, Biotin, Bitter Gourd, Vanadium, and Alpha Lipoic Acid (Thioctic Acid) have also been shown in clinical studies to significantly improve sensitivity in diabetics, lower serum cholesterol and tryglyceride levels, and improve HbA1C (source needed).
Aside from difficulties with the language and formatting, this makes claims which are not actualy supported by research. Any of which might well earn the discoverer a Nobel, there having already been 4 related to DM already. There are currently no cures for DM (save pancreas transplant for Type 1) The other claims for the listed products are also not credible per current research. In fact, this reads more or less like an advert for a 'natural' rememdies sotre. Problematic edit, so I pulled it. Anyone care to comment? ww 10:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed paragrah 

message: This edit, perhaps from the same poster -- I didn't check -- was also removed and for essentially the same reason. See wikitext comment left in its place. 
--snip--
There are natural treatments that exist for Type I and II Diabetes. Gymnema sylvestre leaf has been used by natural clinicians in India for centuries to support healthy blood sugar levels.29,30 In India, it has a common name Gumar, meaning 'destroyer of sugar', perhaps because the taste of the Gymnema plant suppresses the ability to detect sweet tastes.31,32 The important plant constituents of Gymnema are the saponins, especially the gymnemic acids.32 Gymnema extracts containing an appropriate amount of saponins (gymnemic acids), help maintain a healthy pancreas. This supports healthy pancreatic function and the normal production on insulin in the body. Gymnema may do this by supporting the integrity of the pancreatic beta cells29 (These beta cells produce insulin. Insulin removes glucose from the blood and helps with the storage of glucose (as glycogen and fats), thereby helping to regulate the supply of energy.)
When combined with a balanced diet, Gymnema supports healthy blood glucose levels within a normal range29 As well as supporting the pancreas, Gymnema also promotes normal absorption of glucose from the intestine and a healthy metabolism.33 
While supporting healthy glucose metabolism, Gymnema may also help maintain cholesterol and triglycerides in the blood within a normal range.29 A healthy diet (low in saturated fat and refined carbohydrates and sugar) combined with regular exercise and healthy cholesterol and glucose levels, helps maintain metabolic and circulatory systems.
Gymnema supplements are sold throughout the world. Standarization of the herb is important in determining the dosage (usually 100 mg gymnemic acids per 400 mg of Gymnema leaf). Typical doasage ranges from 400 mg- 6g.
Other supplements that may aid in preventing insulin resistance, Syndrome X, or other diabetes-related complications include Chromium, Biotin, Niacin and Thiamine, Fenugreek Seed, Vanadium, NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine), and Bitter Gourd Extract.source needed
Alpha Lipoic Acid (thioctic acid) has also been immensley helpful in treating diabetic neuropathy. It also enhances glucose uptake in non-insulin dependent diabetes and inhibits glycosylation.source needed
Phospatidylcholine (PC) and other 100% pure, GMO-free sources of phospholipid complexes have been shown to improve diabetes related dyslipidemia.34 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ww (talk • contribs) 18:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: a much longer removed edit

message: That eschewing the remote control would lead to more exercise sounds too obvious, even silly. Besides, walking to the television and back doesn't make a big difference - the reader should read the whole article on exercise instead. Mortsggah 11:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And besides, I defy anyone to properly control a modern day cable box or TiVo without using the remote control. :) NipokNek 22:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Eschew the remote control" deleted

message: I would like to add these links to the "External Links" section, but I am having some resistance...
*Diabetes Life Lines
*Your Guide to Diet and Diabetes
*Recipes for Diabetes
*Flavor Fiesta - Traditional Hispanic Recipes for People with Diabetes
Moved the links to Diabetic_diet#References, seems like a more suitable place for them after comments from Nbauman. 
Alessandro Bellina 02:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alessandro Bellina, why don't you add those links to Diabetic_diet#References instead? They cite several books (most of them British), but they don't have any on-line references. Hispanic recipies are particularly useful, given the epidemiology of diabetes in the U.S. Nbauman 03:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: It has been said that red wine and help prevent diabetes type 2, can any 1 comfirm this
:Whoever said this is less informed than would be ideal. Alcohol (ie, ethanol, as there are lots of different kinds of alcohols, at least one frankly poisonous (methanol)) is generally a toxin and is as well a central nervous system depressant. In addition, its metabolites are also toxic. So, in more than moderate quantities, the damage alcohol does is well known. Not so well known is that alcohol interferes with the liver's processing of glucose (storage as glycogen, conversion from glycogen and putting deconverted glycogen glucose back in the blood). This is one of the causes of heavy drinkers systemic health problems.
:There is no observed credible evidence that alcohol prevents or cures or alleviates Type 2 diabetes. In fact, there is no known benefit of alcohol save some calories and perhaps some social lubricant, except for the French paradox. This is not well understood, but the effect is clear. Small quantities of alcohol (some claim red wine is especially helpful, whtout solid grounding) lead to reduced rates of cardiovascular disease. Since the French have eaten a high fat diet for a long time, their rates of cardiovascular disease should be higher than they have been. It seems that small, but steady, alcohol consumption may be the reason for this. The mechanism remains unclear. BUT, this a dangerous approach for the difference between beneficial doses and damaging doses is quite small. Anything more than a drink or two a day (depending on body size) causes more damage than benefit. Thus, sixpacks of beer should last a week or more at a helpful consumption rate. 
:You might want to consult the most recent edition of Bernstein's (poorly named) Diabetes Solution. It is by a doctor with type 1 who was an electrical engineer before medical school; the approach is less anecdotal than most such books, and yet is not opaquely technical for most readers. 
:However, note carefully that Wikipedia is 1) not a source of reliable medical advice (faddists/enthusiastists/snake oil peddlars are sometimes not easily distinguishable from the knowledgable for many readers, perhaps especially in medical matters), and 2) such questions should be directed to the Reference Desk in any case -- not here. ww 06:06, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wine 

message: I'd like to add a link to Diabetes Wiki -- it's a Wikia-hosted site for people with diabetes to share their information and stories. The information on Wikipedia is often very technical; the idea of Diabetes Wiki is that the writing is more accessible for people with diabetes. Still, the site's just starting out, and it isn't an official/authoritative source. Would it be okay to add this link? -- Danny (talk) 21:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, nobody seems to mind, so I'll add the link. If there's any problem with it, then please let me know. Thanks! -- Danny (talk) 19:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Diabetes Wiki link

message: I want to add the external link www.mountain-mad.org to the wiki site, but am having no luck!!!! MAD is the global resource site for all tings related to diabetes and mountains, and we have an extensive list of academic and other references with regard to this. We hold an annual symposium with www.IDEA2000.org members, called MADiDEA, which is this year being held in Montana. We are not a commercial organisation, but purely funded by passion and enthusiasm. Pease help.
:Links of this type would bloat the article beyond recognition. Could you think of other ways to advertise your organisation's activities. JFW | T@lk 10:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mountains for Active Diabetics 

message: If  that amount of vandalism happens more ofthen as is doing in the past day or so, may a semi protection thing be added? petze 01:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. JFW | T@lk 10:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Semi protect

message: indicates that even slightly raised blood sugar levels predispose for cardiovascular diseases. I'm not sure if it needs to be included here or elsewhere.... JFW | T@lk 09:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sugar is bad