Talk:List of singer-songwriters

message: I've culled a large number of entries from the UK and US sections of this.  The article starts out with a reasonable definition (and one consistent with the singer-songwriter article): 
those singers who write their own material, usually perform solo, accompany themselves on guitar or keyboards, and are known as much or more for their songwriting skills as for their performance abilities.
I've removed names which clearly do not meet many (if any) of these criteria: rap artists, rock acts, disco singers, etc.  I've left many marginal cases as well as names I'm not familiar with and only looked at UK and US; the list could probably stand more culling.  Jgm 14:38, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done a fairly thorough sweep of the two US lists and some work on the UK list. At this point these lists are in fairly good shape, though additional editing is needed. See my comments under Cleanup discussion below. I've retained most artists, but did remove some that the original editors may object to. My criteria for both solo artists and established band song writers was the notability (or lack thereof) of their solo recording and performance work. Allreet (talk) 12:56, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: culling

message: It looks like there's no way to keep this list under control or held to the definition given simply by removing names.  I've split the list into two: a list of singer-songwriters that meet the definition given in the singer-songwriter article, and a list of others who both sing and write songs -- hopefully this can catch the frontmen, rock/soul/country performers, and singers who wrote one or two of their own songs.  I moved the most obvious examples that I am aware of, trying to err on the side of caution; I hope others who are more familiar with some of these acts will move them if appropriate.  Jgm 14:42, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Why doesn't Stevie Wonder belong in the first category? He writes his own songs, accompanies them himself on keyboards with minimal arrangements, and is as know for his songwriting as for his pweformances. --FuriousFreddy 18:34, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Split list

message: Gordon Lightfoot appears as both Canadian and American.  While he did spend a brief period in the US in the 50s, he hardly fits into the American category.
:Gordon Lightfoot belongs as much to the U.S. as to Canada (well, fine.  Maybe not AS much, but it's close).  If you want to split the artists up by birthplace, then that's fine, but trying to separate them by where they're more popular or where they spent more time is going to be an impossible task, particularly with Canadian/American artists.  Canadian and American music are nearly impossible to differentiate.  Maybe you should merge the Canadian and American lists and just put a (C) or (A) behind the name to denote nationality.  --Bayyoc 03:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know I'm six months late with the remark, but can we say "Canadian Railroad Trilogy"? It would have been pretty unimaginable for an American to write that. - Jmabel | Talk 22:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gordon Lightfoot

message: Jeff Buckley but no Tim buckley???
:Taken care of, long ago.Allreet (talk) 02:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Buckley, father and son

message: Are singer/songwriters to be included only if they already have a wikipedia article currently in place? --Duke 53  20:30, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Duke, consider making a link to your userpage in your signature.  My opinion.  Yes, I would try to keep it to those who have articles.  I would also encourage the use of categories so that lists like this can eventually be deleted.  I say this because lists like this tend to grow very quickly attracting all sorts of names and become difficult to maintain this is even more true if red links are allowed to grow.  I suppose the flip side is that red links might inspire articles.  Unfortunately this doesn't seem to happen enough though.  Well, thats my opinion. -MrFizyx 20:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, since you are now an editor of this page, your opinion matters too. -MrFizyx 20:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually I only started adding names of some older performers that the younger folks here may never had the chance to hear, or get to know. --Duke 53  23:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  how's this? --Duke 53   User_talk:Duke53 23:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question for editors of  Singer / Songwriter page

message: Hi all: I was confused about the order of the entries, as some of the country sections list artists in alphabetical order by first name and others by the last name. Most of the Wikipedia lists I've seen thus far are usually by last name. Banzaiboy 08:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to fix this.  This is one reason why categories are much better for this sort of thing. -MrFizyx 21:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have now alphabetized by last name (and fixed a few blatant errors). My apologies if I missed anything, but it is now at least close enough to consistent that it should be easy to keep it that way. - Jmabel | Talk 07:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabetical order 

message: What exactly is the distinction between "traditional" and "non-traditional" singer-songwriters? And are there really people who belong in both sections? I see that Ted Nugent is given as "traditional", Phil Ochs as non-traditional; by my intuition they'd be exactly the other way around. Jason Mraz is in both places, as are Fiona Apple, Tori Amos and David Crosby.
I probably have a lot of knowledge I could bring to this article—I'm familiar with the majority of the performers mentioned, and I don't just mean the English-language performers—but I am not sure I understand the principles according to which it is organized, or even whether they are internally consistent. - Jmabel | Talk 08:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the list is a mess.  The descriptions are poor and many people are listed in the wrong list or both lists etc.  I think the intent may have been to parse out the general definition of singer-songwriter (any performer who writes most of his/her own songs) from what I would call the "contemporary singer-songwriter" which is generally considered to be a sub genre of contemporary folk music--these people are not really "traditional" either, but have their roots in the same types of venues and scenes that sprouted a young Bob Dylan, Tom Paxton, etc. (more modern folk festivals, folk clubs etc.).  The All Music Guide uses two pages to define the two different definitions of singer-songwriter , .  You'll notice that the two definitions aren't really all that different, but the lists of "top artist" for each genre are quite different.  Our own article on "singer-songwriter" doesn't do a very good job with this problem as of yet either. -MrFizyx 22:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I've given up trying to police this page.  It is something of a dumping ground used mostly by IP editors.  Good luck with it.  If you want to merege the lists, or redefine the categories to make things more clear, I doubt anyone would mind at this point. -MrFizyx 19:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Traditional" 

message: Awen is linked as both trad & non-trad U.S. singer-songwriter. The linked article is not even about a person. Any objection to just removing? - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah feel free to clean-up.  I doubt you really need ask. -MrFizyx 19:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awen 

message: I moved Pete to the traditional singer-songwriter list as he is mentioned in the original article as an example of singer-songwriters!  There was a comment about him not being a songwriter, but he has written lots of songs.Cat 03:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pete Seeger

message: Insert formula here
Should Grohl be added to this list. It seems to me that he should be on here. He's written and sung on all of those Foo Fighters songs, so I think he deserves to be on the list.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.104.173.21 (talk) 10:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dave Grohl 

message: Apparently, many people love adding themselves or others into this list; since I have time, and this clutter irritates me, I'm going to google the particular names that aren't notable enough to have Wikipedia links (the ones in red), and any of those random bands that are only known on Myspace are going to get culled. Feel free to revert if anyone can provide information showing the relevance of those self-promoting bands. Geht (talk) 04:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-Promotion 

message: I'm taking a stab at cleaning up the lists, starting with the countries I am most familiar with, namely US and UK. I understand that for a time there was disagreement over who did and did not qualify as a singer-songwriter and that notability also posed a problem. However, in the two years or so that have passed, the lists have pretty much taken care of themselves without any warring of note.
A fair amount of work remains regarding categorization and inclusion. I've already waded through a good part of the US list, using Wikipedia as  source in most cases and checking any uncertainties and questionable entries against Internet sources, such as reviews, charts, radio station artist lists, record companies, etc. Even then, I've had to make some judgement calls, but by large I've been relying on the following criteria as a guideline:
*A "traditional" singer-songwriter writes most of his or her own material and is known first and foremost as a solo performer, whether backup appears on their recordings or not.
*Those who fit into the "other" category are known primarily for writing for and playing with bands, but also have gained recogition as solo performers.
 
Similarly, I've found the following criteria useful on the question of notability:
*In: Artists whose work has had at least some national recognition, that is, either significant sales or reviews in notable publications (which precludes artist/label/fan sites as well as local publications and fanzines).
*Out: Current and former band members who have written primarily for their groups and have had only nominal solo performance/recording experience.
That pretty much takes care of significant artists such as Stevie Wonder, Roger Waters, Kurt Cobain and George Harrison (all of whom fit the "Other" category), as well as less significant sorts, for example, garage band leaders from Detroit or Liverpool who wouldn't be known to more than a handful of people in New York or London and therefore don't belong in either category. I fully realize it's not all as simple as that, but nothing difficult would ever get done if some attempt wasn't made at setting standards and upholding them boldly. Allreet (talk) 05:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: I have cleaned up the US, UK and Canada sections, both "traditional" and "other", to the point where the artists have all been vetted against WP, allmusic and other sources.  At this point, I believe the two templates at the top of the article can be removed. I am basing this on the following grounds:
* Lists general do not require citations since they address relatively narrow matters that are not in contention and, therefore, are widely accepted characterizations.
* Experts beyond the sources I've researched are no more needed here than in vetting any other article.
General acceptance of the criteria I and other editors have used over the past few years provides ample assurance that the list can be maintained with consistency and within WP's standards for verifiability, POV and similar issues. I await input from other editors, but if none is forthcoming within the next two months, I plan to remove the templates. Thanks.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Allreet (talk • contribs) 
:I still see people that would not be considered a singer-songwriter in the traditional sense, such as Björk, Thomas Di Leva, Håkan Hellström, Nanne Grönvall, Dido, Michael Jackson, Christina Aguilera etc. The list is actually quite full of erroneous entries. Erzsébet Báthory(talk|contr.) 22:06, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I was primarily speaking of the US, UK and Canada lists, which at this point have a very low percentage of erroneous entries (the UK more than the other two). I haven't gone after the other countries, and help from editors familiar with certain nations would be welcomed. Björk, however, most definitely is a S/S, though she should be an "other" list for Iceland. Michael Jackson is also a S/S in a non-traditional sense and accordingly he's on the "other" US list. You're correct; Christina Aguilera is not a S/S, and I removed her previously, but someone has re-entered her. If in your opinion, some other artists do not belong, then simply remove them. Check first, however, with their wiki articles, allmusic (whose discographies include songwriting credits) and whatever other sources you want. If you find an artist that has notable songwriting credits but is not a solo artist, then create an "other" list for the country in question if one doesn't already exist. There's nothing at all that difficult about this process, hence my opinion that an "expert" isn't needed. As for citations, just on practical grounds, requiring them is uncalled for. For one, the length of the article would double, since each entry would have an individual citation. For another, most entries from western countries can be verified through one source (allmusic). And finally, as I indicated above, why should citations be required here, if they aren't required in other lists? I'd appreciate feedback on those issues, as well as help with editing out the unnotables. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of citation and "expert" templates 

message: Looks like it is about time to do some pruning... comment? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 17:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Did it. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 03:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

text: I believe there shouldn't be any red links since one of the main criteria is notability. While having a WP page isn't the last word on the subject, in 97 cases out of 100, a search on AllMusic or the full web generally confirms that it comes darn close, at least as far as the Western world is concerned. Artists who don't make that cut have little more than FaceBook, YouTube and the like to offer as confirmation that they even exist, let alone that theirs is more than either a local or small but loyal following. Allreet (talk) 19:50, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red links 

message: There are some singers who I feel do belong in the traditional category, because they mostly use basic instrumentation to write and perform their songs. Finallyunderstood (talk) 13:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree with your examples. Shift anyone from one list to the other if you feel they meet the criteria you mentioned. Allreet (talk) 19:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditionial vs Non-Traditional 

message: An edit made on 11 April 2011 removed or moved the US list of traditional singer-songwriters and may have affected the listings for other countries, in all, a 5,000 byte reduction. On the one hand, that's a good thing; the article is a bit long. On the other, I believe a major restructuring should be brought up for discussion and that this particular one seems to have damaged the article. Since an automatic undo won't work at this point, I plan to manually reinstate the article to its condition before the edit in question and then manually enter any edits that have been done since then. If you have any interest in this, take a look at the edit history, and feel free to offer your comments. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 20:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wholesale removal of material and restructuring of article 

message: I was fairly sure that there are singer-songwriters in France... is there any reason that all the great musicians from there haven't been included? freshmaniac (talk) 11:00, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As with everything else there is to do, editors knowledgeable in the subject are needed. Allreet (talk) 15:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  France 

message: Are you kiddin? Just one (1) German artist? In Germany there are hundreds of Liedermacher, stages are full of them, and a part of our poetry consists of songs. 178.19.226.81 (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  what about Gemany 

message: Would they meet requirements of inclusion if they sing, write, produce in the band?--Lpdte77 (talk) 01:53, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.--Lpdte77 (talk) 05:20, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead singers of bands? 

message: Dear fellow editors, 
I am leaving this message out of courtesy to other editors interested in this article.
I have today cleared brief details added alongside five entries. I am aware that, per MOS:LISTS#Stand-alone list articles, lists . However, the details added to some entries generally do not seem to add much value, as they often duplicate the information already contained in each entry's article, where the same details are elaborated upon more completely. Therefore, it seems to me that these summary details, added alongside list entries, tend to add visual noise to the layout of the present list, with little benefit. I still think there is value in clarifying, for example, that Yusuf Islam once also performed under the stage name of Cat Stevens, because those two monikers would not readily seem connected, at first glance, by readers who do not know this artist.
In any case, I wanted to leave the present message to explain my recent edits and, if anyone disagrees, then by all means feel free to revert some/all of my edits.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 10:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details added alongside entries. 

message: Don Clarke is a South African songwriter
There is no Wiki article for him as yet, so I added then removed him. There is a draft article waiting for review which is fully referenced. I am learning, my main interest is Kris Kristofferson, but I am interested in S A music, too. 
Don Clarke should be on this list, but I am noting here because I don't want to make any mistakes and it seems we need to link to live articles. If interested, I will come back after the article goes live. I have a few others in mind, but I need to check some facts. 
Official Website: http://www.donclarke.co.za/
https://atom.nelsonmandela.org/index.php/za-com-mr-t-0380
https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/the-witness/20190903/281500752928378
https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/cape-times/20100616/281934539197177
https://www.last.fm/music/Don+Clarke
Bloggermelive (talk) 23:46, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don Clarke  

message: Hey there,Please add Navid Biglari and Melody Nayeri to singers list as a Iranian singer Radinkhan (talk) 00:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add artist name