Talk:Norman Borlaug/Archive 1

message: Stunning. Congrats & warmfuzzies. You know who you are. –Hajor 22:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent improvement of article

message: To-do for yield impact section
*What year did India become self-sufficient for food production? 1974 for all cereals
*When were they introdued to China and Latin America, how much impact did the varieties have there?
*Should it discuss the no green revolution scenario pdf? Or is that better material for the Green Revolution article?
**Is this denying that there was a Green Revolution, or saying that we don't need another one in the future? --brian0918™
***They are statistical estimates of what the world would be like today (poverty, hunger etc.) if there wasn't a green revolution.--nixie 06:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Throughs on the article

message: The naming of a street after him in Cd Obregón was described as "especially satisfying" -- unless that's a direct quote, it sounded rather excessive in light of the string of other honors below. I had a shot at rewording it. 
I physically cringed the first time I read the quote from Penn and Teller -- the reference to Sagan and his billions is neat, but the words "And most of them were a different race from him" say more about Penn Jillette than about Borlaug. Would replacing that line with ellipsis dots be appropriate?
The World Peace Window in Minneapolis sounded like an impressive piece of art, so I searched for it.  Oh well. Nice idea, though. I suppose stained glass isn't the easiest medium to work in. –Hajor 17:03, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Honors and recognition / Quote

message: A couple of quick comments with a view to the WP:FA drive. –Hajor 30 June 2005 19:16 (UTC)
#Biography  info-box: having an empty space awaiting the date of Dr Norman's demise is ghoulish. Is there a separate version of that template for people who are not yet dead? Should one be created?
#*I thought the same thing when I first implemented it. I couldn't find an alternative, but believe one should be created. --brian0918™ 30 June 2005 19:41 (UTC)
#**I agree. --nixie 30 June 2005 23:25 (UTC)
#***Consciously on my pending list, then, unless someone else does it / offers an alternative. –Hajor 
#***Done. Swapped for a non-template version without date of death. And, when push came to shove, I remmed out the date of birth, too -- I thought it looked tidier like that: nice big pic with a solid title, but without biographical pretensions. If you don't agree, it's trivial to re-include. All three versions can be seen on my user sandbox. –Hajor 1 July 2005 13:13 (UTC) 
#Footnotes: Some come before the punctuation[1]; others, after.[2] I like the footnotes-after-stops style better, but that's not important: consistency is. (Having the footnote calls in superscript also makes a right pig's ear of line spacing, but that's a defect of the footnote template, not this article. Still a shame, though.)
#*I think the rule for that is that if the source is for the whole paragraph, and appears at the end of the paragraph, then the footnote comes after the stop, but if the source is for a sentence in the paragraph, the footnote is before the stop. --brian0918™ 30 June 2005 19:41 (UTC)
#**I have to confess that's not a guideline I've ever heard. If you don't mind, I'll ask the typography mavens on the Manual of Style. –Hajor 30 June 2005 23:45 (UTC) 
#***Finally, fwiw, some comments here. –Hajor 16:11, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fiddly details

message: I heard back from the World Food Prize Foundation:
This quote came from an article in The Atlanticonline in January of 1997.  The actual quote was "The form of agriculture that Borlaug preaches may have preented a billion deaths."  You may want to try this link www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jan/borlaug/borlaug.htm . It was "Forgotten Benefactor of Humanity" by Gregg Easterbrook. Hope this helps.
 
Jan Douglas
World Food Prize Foundation
--nixie 00:11, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Source for the ''billion lives'' quote

message: The bottom of the article looked like a Borlaug web directory, I've moved everything pre 2000 here.--nixie 05:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Old speeches and presentations

message: In the section 'Critics and His Response to Critics': The Green Revolution was not a political revolution. As a result, there have been problems with equality in food distribution.  
I suggest changing this to:  The Green Revolution was not a political revolution. As a result, there are problems with equality in food distribution.  
I think it is important that while the 'Green Revolution' was not a political movement - that if its purpose was to effectively feed the world population equity of distribution is a primary importance.  Certain analyses [] indicate that at the time that the Green Revolution occurred there existed more than enough food for everyone, and that intensification (even if you do not accept Hopfenberg's conclusion) has yielded an even larger surplus today - enough to feed many times the current world population. L Hamm
*The "Green Revolution" refers to his expansion through Mexico and South Asia in the 60s and 70s, so "have been" (ie: in the past) is more accurate. This phrase includes past problems and doesn't rule out current problems. Are you saying before the GR there was enough food for everyone, or after the GR? -- BRIAN0918  13:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critics and His Response to Critics 

message: I deleted the following passages from the article:
:—his three younger sisters were Palma Lillian (Behrens; 1916 to 2004), Charlotte (Culbert; born 1919) and Helen (1921 to 1921)—to Henry Oliver (1889 to 1971) and Clara (Vaala) Borlaug (1888 to 1972) on his grandparents' farm in Saude
:He attended the one-teacher one-room New Oregon #8 rural school in Howard County up through eighth grade; today, the school building, built in 1865, is owned by the Norman Borlaug Heritage Foundation as part of "Project Borlaug Legacy". At Cresco High School, Borlaug played baseball and wrestled, where his coach continually encouraged him to "give 105%."
:Borlaug met his wife, Margaret Gibson, while in college, as he waited tables at a Dinkytown coffee shop where they both worked. They would go on to have two children, Norman Jean "Jeanie" (later married "Laube") and William Borlaug. The Borlaugs currently have five grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. Their current residence is in northern Dallas, although Borlaug is only there a few weeks of the year. His wife, Margaret, who is now blind, has assistance from their daughter Jeanie with such things as reading the thousands of letters they receive through the mail— most of which are requests from around the world for Borlaug's autograph. Jeanie once came across a foreign postage stamp with her father's picture on it that the sender wanted signed. She has said she was surprised at how little of this mail comes from the United States.
(I replaced the latter paragraph with a brief note that he is married and has two children.)  These matters seem like totally nonnotable trivia; they're boring and they have nothing to do with his agricultural work, which is the only reason he's included in the encyclopedia.  What's the need to include the inane slogan of his high school coach and his precise number of grandchildren?  What's the reason to enumerate the names of members of his family if they aren't notable in themselves?  We don't do this for any other famous figure.  The mention of autograph letters just makes the article seem like it was written by a Borlaug fanboy, and the jab at the rarity of greens in the United States is gratuitous and irrelevant. Redquark 13:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Aside from wasting time, I find some of the passages lend a POV slant to the article; they seem intended to present him as an inspirational figure.  That alone is enough to delete the coach encouragement (as well as the grandfather advice following it, come to think of it), which sound like something out of a fawning documentary about a sports hero.  Also, the later paragraph about his receiving the Nobel prize should be cut down in my opinion; it's much the same as that of many other prize winners, and is not particularly interesting, and again seems to have a fanboy slant.  The lists of names I don't mind quite as much.  I'll invite another user to do these edits, though, to show it's not just me. Redquark 15:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *How much of the FAC process have you experienced in only 145 edits??? You should read through the FAC page for this article. As for "wasting time", that's why there are section headers. If people want info on his family, go to the Family section. If they want info on his work, go to the work section. Simple as that. Not all of any article is going to hold the interest of everyone (although several people did say that this article held their interest all the way through, while nobody has said anything to the contrary except you). It is not irrelevent whether something is important to him, because it shows what sort of person he is and what motivates him. Should we remove all references to motivations from the article on Adolf Hitler?  Others have expressed opinions exactly contrary to yours with respect to the coach/grandfather encouragement. They liked that content, and wanted it to remain. Inviting others to make your edits for you is not the point of discussion toward consensus. We reached a consensus on the FAC page where similar discussion was encountered, and reached the conclusion that this content was fine. Until such time that serious debate comes up by serious users, I'm going to default to telling you to read the FAC page for this article. -- BRIAN0918  15:58, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I have no connection with Dr. Borlaug, Redquark, or Brian0918, but just wanted to say that I found the entire article interesting, including the personal and family sections. Far from being "fawning", I found this personal information humanized Dr. Borlaug and made him less of an idealized figure. If you want an example of uncritical fanboy drivel, read the Mariah Carey article, not this. -- Corvus 17:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted personal life trivia 

message: A person does not "repudiate" criticisms that are directed at him. A person repudiates ideas or beliefs with which he may be thought to be associated. It is a misuse of the word to state that he "repudiated" criticisms that were directed at him, and it's very jarring and distracting to read.  I can't believe that wordchoice survived Peer Review. Babajobu 15:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  In all three of my dics (Shorter OED, MW Unabridged, and Encarta), generalized rejection is a secondary definition of the word, and the first (and large majority) of senses of the word entail the  disassociation of oneself from something to which you might otherwise be (or be suspected to be) associated: a belief, a family member, whatever. And I think counting on a secondary and much-less-frequently used sense of the  word is generally a bad idea, especially when it clashes so obviously with the primary senses of the word (he very obviously is not associated with criticisms of himself). I think it reads very awkward. Regardless, you've obviously doen a very good job otherwise on this article, so I'm happy to leave the final (choice of) word with you. Babajobu 16:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *Alright, I'm just going to stick that definition into the article rather than use the ambiguous word. -- BRIAN0918  16:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That reads much, much better. That was exactly the right thing to do. Babajobu 16:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Repudiate"

message: This reference requires a subscription to view. Peoplesunionpro 17:52, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
*That's why I provided a link to a duplicate of that article. -- BRIAN0918  20:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference #15 

message: "On a global scale, this view holds strictly true ceteris paribus, provided that all land consists either of forests or is used for agriculture. Because other land uses exist, such as fallow, savannah, or brush, further research is necessary to ascertain what land has been converted for what purposes, in order to determine how true this view remains. Increased profits from high yield production may also induce cropland expansion in any case, although as world food needs decrease, this expansion may decrease as well."
Is this section in error?  Under land uses are savannah, and brush, but these would seem to be biomes not land uses.  Other land uses would be,  I think more accurately: aquaculture(?), pasture, fallow, and commercial (non-food) crops, urban, and brownfields.  L Hamm 18:48, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Borlaug Hypothesis 

message: IMO, in the wheat yield charts, the vertical axis should start at zero and not at 500, because it might create a wrong first impression otherwise (the same applies to many demographic charts in wikipedia, btw). 193.171.121.30 08:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chart Axis Should Start at Zero 

message: I know that it is taboo to edit a featured article, but there were some unverified (and false) claims here. The previous version of the article stated that agricultural production was lowered in Mexico as a result of agrarian reform. While the team that surveyed Mexico for the Rockefeller Foundation beleived ejidos and other small farms that came out of the (Mexican) revolution to be inefficient, the reason for low agricultural productivity of grains had more to do with the effects of the war and of economic depression than on landholdings. Countless studies show that smaller farms have higher outputs per unit land area than larger ones. The reality is that Camacho was reluctant continue with Cárdenas's agrarian reform, and sought a vision of a more industrialized nation.
Also, the previous version of the article stated that the Mexican government requested that the United States government help them carry out the program, and the US gov't passed the task on to the Rockefeller Foundation. For the most part, this was Henry Wallace's personal project. He had been the Secretary of Agriculture under Roosevelt, and his father started a very profitable maize developing corporation. Wallace spent a lot of time in Mexico, built a personal relationship with Camacho, and personally called a meeting with Rockefeller Foundation officials to try to convince them to adopt some sort of agricultural development program in Mexico. No US federal government policy was actually involved at all at this point in history. Justin 01:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes regarding origins of Office of Special Studies 

message: It is of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
not true for this article, i think i could do with some severe trimming.for example:
* Two of their children, Ole Olson Borlaug and Nels Olson Borlaug (Norman's grandfather), were integral in the establishment of the Immanuel Norwegian Evangelical Lutheran Congregation in the small Norwegian-American community of Saude, near Cresco, Iowa in 1889.[3][4]
* He attended the one-teacher, one-room New Oregon #8 rural school in Howard County up through eighth grade. Today, the school building, built in 1865, is owned by the Norman Borlaug Heritage Foundation as part of "Project Borlaug Legacy".[5] At Cresco High School, Borlaug played football, baseball and wrestled, where his coach, Dave Barthelma, continually encouraged him to "give 105%."
trueblood 18:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  too long 

message: Information on his receiving the medal today: Greatest Living American Ignored (huffingtonpost.com) ... I'll leave it to the expert article-writers here to decide if/when to incorporate this. ~Kylu (u|t)  22:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Article 

message: This seems very wrong, unless there's a side to Norman Borlaug I was VERY unaware of.  Even then, "insatiable jungle fever" is hardly an appropriate term to use, so I'm thinking this has to be vandalism.
74.135.138.255 (talk) 04:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism? 

message: If you look at citation 26, it seems to be using a Wikipedia article (Green Revolution) as a reference. If it is doing this, it should cite the reference directly. If it is not, it should be changed to make it more clear (and a real reference should probably be added). Richard001 (talk) 09:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia being used as a reference 

message: I expanded the infobox and added the Noble Prize image.  Also, Borlaug is one of the six American Noble Peace Prize winners alive today, I think that should be noted somewhere.  Thoughts?   
~G Geasterb 19:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: As it so happens, I've been working with an author writing a biography of Norman Borlaug and he asked me (as a Wikipedian photographer in Minneapolis) to take some photos of where he lived at the U, based on addressed supplied by Mr. Borlaug.  Unfortunately, urban renewal (and the ill-fated 35W Bridge) have claimed all but one building.  I have a photo of it (and the relevant area of the article has no photo), but my only source for its veracity are emails from the biographer (Dr. Noel Vietmeyer).  Since this an FA, I want to be careful not to create a problem.  Would it be useful?  If so, how could we move forward? --Bobak (talk) 22:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of apartment he was living in at University of Minnesota 

message: I would like to change a sentence to read, "Borlaug is one of five people in history to have won the Nobel Peace Prize and been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom and Congressional Gold Medal."
The last two awards are not won, but are awarded or bestowed. I await your thoughts.
129.174.97.34 (talk) 17:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Won and awarded 

message: I'm sorry if this has already been covered - the discussion page seems short for such a great guy, but I couldn't find an archive (maybe I just missed it)...anyway, question is: What about the "billion" figure quoted by Penn on Bullshit!? Where does that come from, and why does the article say 245 million instead? Thank you. Applejuicefool (talk) 16:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billion? 

message: Wow, what a coincidence. The article was de-featured a day after his death, after a Featured Article Review process that's been going on for a while now. — BRIAN0918 • 2009-09-13 23:24Z
:Purely coincidental. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure he didn't see the handwriting on the wall, impending decertification, which caused him to die?  Mrs. Nixon got a stroke and died after reading "All the President's Men".  Farewell, Professor Borlaug. President of Chicago (talk) 04:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Defeatured...