Talk:Leelkase

message: There has been a series of disruptive edits to the article's Notable Leelkase people section, all emanating from USFamily.net, beginning on February 19, 2006 (more details).  Here is a recent example. While disruption may not be the editor's intention, the edits are inappropriate for Wikipedia:
* They do not adhere to the neutral point-of-view policy
* They do not comply with Wikipedia's stylistic guidelines
** The inappropriate use of header syntax is particularly disruptive (i.e. "=This is not recognazed Cheaf acording to the tradition of the reagon===========").
* They include criticism about Garaad Warsame Abdi Haashi's inclusion in Wikipedia. This type of commentary should be added to the article's talk page, not to the article itself.
Note that there is a separate article for Garaad Warsame Abdi Haashi. Any text about this individual, other than a brief description, should probably be added to that article, and not to the list in Leelkase.  But again, the type of edits I have described are inappropriate for either article. Thanks. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disruptive edits 

message: The Leelkase, Akisho, and Gadabuursi articles each claim that Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi (Ahmed Gurey) was a member of those respective clans. None of these articles cite a reference, though. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 04:24, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the Ogaden article states he is from that area. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 21:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the reference to Ahmed Gurey from this article. Please cite a verifiable source before restoring it to the article. See also Talk:Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi#Somali clan?. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 19:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please cite verifiable and reliable sources for everything in this article. --ElectricEye (talk) 02:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahmed Gurey 

message: The Leelkase Subclans section has become quite unwieldy, at best.  I propose we set some kind of threshold of notability.  In its  current state this seems analogous to a list of surnames.  If the list can't be pared down then perhaps it should be spun off as a separate article. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leelkase Subclans section 

message: Though I am loathe to throw the baby out with the bathwater, this article is severely lacking in citations, and there is a large chunk in the middle that is written in Somali. While it could be correct for all we know, it is inappropriate to leave Somali content in the middle of the English language Wikipedia without a translation. --Petercorless 11:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Foreign language section

message: See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Sub-clan articles and redirects. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 14:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Eight Lelkase sub-clan articles that had been redirected to Darod now redirect to Lelkase: Mohamud Ali, Fiqi Ismail, Muumin Aadan, Mohamed Muumin, Reer Haji, Reer Ahmed, Reer Farah, and Suhurre. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Those Eight subclans are supposed to be listed, but i don't understand why the subclans are being redicrected for us only, why don't you do it for all the somali subclans who are made hundreds of articles for their sometimes imaginary subclans. Our article is being honest and listing the importnat subclans of Leelkase[Tanade Darood].  
I feel like our article has been completely been hijacked by competing or envious fellow somalis who harbour jelousy or hate towards us.
Please clarify me on why "Only Leelkase", is being affected on the somali tribes articles.  Also if you wanted to use english names for the Somali tribes, please do it for all the somali tribes. Our legitimate name is "Leelkase" not lelkase, the pronounciation is L-e-e-l-kase, not lelkase.  
Thank you  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taajir (talk • contribs) 23:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see your talk page regarding the motives of other Wikipedia editors.  I have not singled out this clan.  :Category:Somali clans had approximately 150 articles; it now has 31.  I assure you that this affects articles of all clans.  It has nothing to do with bias toward one clan or any clan. It has everything to do with improving Wikipedia.  As for the spelling, I am not going to entertain the "all-or-nothing" argument.  I'm sorry you feel that this article was targeted but, again, I assure you that approximately 120 other articles came under similar scrutiny. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-directed to [[Darod]] 

message: I have found some sources and re-written this article as an attributed stub.  Personally, I think this is a good baseline for moving forward.  Another editor had complained that this article was redirected to Darod, while other Darod sub-clans were not; I explained that the other articles properly cited sources and, as such, stood on their own.  I've been informed that this is an important clan, and ought to have its own article, as well. However, I would point out that an article about an important subject would not languish for 2.5 years without a single attribution, or 3 years without some effort toward cleanup, as this article had done.  In its new state, this article's text and references could very easily be merged into the larger Darod article (making this a redirect, again) but for now we'll simply hope that this article will expand in accordance with Wikipedia policies. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Eight Lelkase sub-clan articles that had been redirected to Darod now redirect to Lelkase: Mohamud Ali, Fiqi Ismail, Muumin Aadan, Mohamed Muumin, Reer Haji, Reer Ahmed, Reer Farah, and Suhurre. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Those Eight subclans are supposed to be listed, but i don't understand why the subclans are being redicrected for us only, why don't you do it for all the somali subclans who are made hundreds of articles for their sometimes imaginary subclans. Our article is being honest and listing the importnat subclans of Leelkase[Tanade Darood].  
I feel like our article has been completely been hijacked by competing or envious fellow somalis who harbour jelousy or hate towards us.
Please clarify me on why "Only Leelkase", is being affected on the somali tribes articles.  Also if you wanted to use english names for the Somali tribes, please do it for all the somali tribes. Our legitimate name is "Leelkase" not lelkase, the pronounciation is L-e-e-l-kase, not lelkase.  
Thank you  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taajir (talk • contribs) 23:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see your talk page regarding the motives of other Wikipedia editors.  I have not singled out this clan.  :Category:Somali clans had approximately 150 articles; it now has 31.  I assure you that this affects articles of all clans.  It has nothing to do with bias toward one clan or any clan. It has everything to do with improving Wikipedia.  As for the spelling, I am not going to entertain the "all-or-nothing" argument.  I'm sorry you feel that this article was targeted but, again, I assure you that approximately 120 other articles came under similar scrutiny. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Un-redirected 

message: The English-language sources that I cited for this article all use the spelling "Lelkase" (one source gives "Lelkase/Leelkase").  "Lelkase" would seem to be the preferred English-language spelling, so I am moving this article to that title. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure that we've reached a consensus about the spelling, Taajir.  So far we've collectively found one source that uses "Lelkase", one that uses "Leelkase" and one that uses both spellings.  In any event, if we decide to move the page we need to do it properly - I can help with this, but don't leave two articles about the same subject, as you did. Thanks. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 14:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Based on this result there does not (at this time) seem to be a definitive English-language spelling.  However, I have moved the article back to "Leelkase" and cited Taajir and my references for the various spellings.  Again, if a page move is neded in the future, ask for help - there is a correct way to do it. Thanks again. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 15:15, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Lelkase 

message: Leelkase is the ligitimate and most used and official name, not lelkase at all.
if you go to google website, and search for 'Lelkase' this is what the results ar:
Did you mean: leelkase shown Results 1 - 10 of about 776 for lelkase    776 ONLY on the misused spelling of 'lelkase'
while the actual and correct usage and spelling of LEELKASE shows you this result on google:
Results 1 - 10 of about 7,450 for leelkase.  that is 7,450 results for name of Leelkase, compared to only 776 for the lelkase search
please let us work together to solve this misunderstanding and total collapse of some of the most valuable information about the Tanade[Leelkase] on wiki.  The original Leelkase wiki page contained all the Leelkase subclans, and had very useful information about the Leelkase subclans and their settlements.
For Example the Leelkase article contained information similar to what the Majerteen article, or Marehan articles contain, their subclans and places of settlements.  Their article is not cited at all, and yet you have not done any changes to theirs.
Please let us be fair "Gyrofrog", i mean it's not like you are a fellow somali who harbours some resentment towards some somali tribes.
Thank You
Taajir  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taajir (talk • contribs) 23:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again: the original page did not cite any sources.  Please realize that verifiability is a Wikipedia policy. The article had been flagged for two-and-a-half years because it lacked references.  For two-and-a-half years, no one bothered to add a reliable source to this article. However valuable or useful you believe the information on Lelkase/Leelkase was, at least the Majerteen and Marehan articles both cite numerous references.  If you are referring only to the lineage/sub-clan listings, then in both of the other articles those sections are already tagged as needing cleanup (as well as in may other Somali clan articles).  I have already proposed deleting any sub-clan list entry which does not link to another Wikipedia article - see my comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Clan lineage.  Also note that as long ago as 2006, I had raised concerns on this same talk page that the sub-clan/lineage section in this article had become unwieldy. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 04:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect name change of the Leelkase[Tanade Darood] tribe

message: i went through the citation 1 you used to support your change of the name Leelkase, and it does not mention anything about Lelkase or Leelkase, it mentions other Darood subclans, but thats all.
Thank you,
--Taajir (talk) 23:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing that out about the first source.  I had cited the wrong source, there are two sources that have been widely attributed in the Somali clan articles, and in this case I had confused the two. Sorry for the confusion.  Anyway, I have made the correction, and this document spells it "Lelkase" (scroll down to page 56).  You are correct that the other source makes no mention of Lelkase/Leelkase - although one might ask, why is that? -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 04:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

text: As for the Google "Leelkase" search results, a large number of them are in Somali, not English.  The other results appear to be mainly Wikipedia mirrors or similar wiki sites, nothing I would use as a reliable source.  I am not denying that the Somali spelling is "Leelkase".  The whole point of using the "Lelkase" spelling is because, thus far, that's how I was able to turn up reliable sources. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 05:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

text: On a final note for the evening, please realize that I was trying to do you a favor by putting the article back.  As I wrote earlier, the attributed information in this article is quite small, and could just as easily be merged back into the Darod article (thereby changing this article back into a redirect).  I am taking your word for it that this is a prominent and important clan, though I am puzzled by its complete exclusion from the earlier "Somalia Assessment 2001" source, as well as its exclusion from this map. I know this is a much shorter article than you would prefer, but I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt by putting even a short version back.  At least it cites some sources now.  If you are interested in improving this article, then I suggest finding more information that you can back up with a reliable source, and add it to the article. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 05:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Citation on Lelkase of the renamed Leelkase page 

message: Taajir has reverted to the old version of the article, the one flagged since April 2007 for no references, and since 2006 for cleanup.  Henceforth I will consider such reverts, or  for that matter any unattributed additions, as disruptive edits.  I have outlined a number of problems with this article on this talk page, going back to 2006.  Taajir has not addressed any of these concerns, other than the spelling issue.  The attributed stub version is intended as a baseline for moving forward; reverting to an unreferenced version that needs cleanup is not helping Wikipedia. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read the comments on my talk page, the various comments here and a looked at what Gyrofrog is doing. I think that Gyrofrog is working his way through all the clan/sub-clan articles and had to start somewhere and no matter where he starts someone is going to complain that he is picking on their clan. At the same time I looked at Marehan, Dhulbahante and Majerteen, and yes they did have large un-sourced sub-clan trees. I have removed them and in place have substituted a clan tree. The clan tree, I feel, works better for the non-Somali reader as it shows the clan links both "above" and "below" and is sourced. Without having the clan structure shown in both directions it is very difficult for the non-Somali reader to understand the relationship. I see no reason why a sourced clan tree can't be used here. However, it is necessary to remove the long sprawling lists of clans and sub-clans. While this may be understandable to a Somali reader it is supposed to be understandable to all editors. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 17:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  October 25 

message: Ogaden and Marehan do not live in Puntland. The document used to support it from the World Bank does not even say so.http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTSOMALIA/Resources/conflictinsomalia.pdf Here's one from the International Crisis Group which shows that they do not live in those regions.http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/africa/horn-of-africa/somalia/B064%20Somalia%20The%20Trouble%20with%20Puntland.pdf  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 26oo (talk • contribs) 14:45, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixed Error 

message: The article resembles a large family tree without context, I'm not sure what information is really useful for a reader. I would prune much of it, but it's referenced so I'm not sure what can be simply removed. Ifnord (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: 89.242.90.110, I appreciate the pruning you've been doing. It's looking more informative now. Ifnord (talk) 21:56, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing