Talk:Sun Tzu

message: Lost History-Sun Tzu & The Art of WarTokarski21 (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sun Tzu Link Suggestion 

message: Well, if the dates of birth and death are unknown, it would probably be appreciated if there were approxamate times of death.--Archeopteryx (talk) 02:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree; done. Gary King (talk) 22:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

text: His dates of birth and death are unknown because he did not exist. He was a made up person based on Sun Bin and Wu Qi. See my post under "History Created Myth, Myth Became History".--VimalaNowlis (talk) 02:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates unkown? 

message: Are there any accounts or supposed accounts of his military conflicts? I was looking for perhaps people who may have been his rivals or greatest enemies. --Cyberman (talk) 15:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no accounts of his battles because there was none because he did not exist. He was a combination of Suen Bing and Wu Chi. See my post under "History Created Myth, Myth became History".--VimalaNowlis (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  His battles and wars? 

message: The conclusions and views of Mark McNeilly are questionable. I particularly like the statement how Norman Schwarzkopf practiced Sun's principles. While uncertain (as I'm not a military officer) I certainly believe that most officers (Schwarzkopf too) read and study The Art of War besides many other manuals of strategy and tactics. They study the campaigns of all major warlords like Hannibal, Napoleon, Rommel, etc. However Schwarzkopf mentioned (praised) Hannibal and not Sun Tzu. 
IMHO McNeilly seems to be seeing what he wants to see and the influence of The Art of War upon modern China seems to be exaggerated. Flamarande (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of our personal opinions, we simply report what reliable sources have said about a topic. --Vassyana (talk) 13:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

text: "Both deceased rap legend Tupac Shakur and NFL star Plaxico Burress have reported having read The Art of War during their prison sentences. This contributed, in part, to Tupac's Makaveli alter ego, as well as Burress' cultivation of a love of reading which he credits with providing him the balance he needed to successfully return to the NFL."  I deleted this from the article, both were reported to have read The Art of War, not verified or linked.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.144 (talk) 21:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As well as being dubiously notable or relevant (cf. wp:undue)... — LlywelynII 13:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems 

message: I suggest removing the sentence about General Schwarzkopf practicing Sun Tzu's principles until a better reference can be found.  McNeilly offers no evidence that Schwarzkopf actually looked to Sun Tzu's teachings when developing his strategy; he just infers it (he also spells Schwarzkopf's name wrong).  The military principles of "deception, speed, and attacking the enemy's weakness" existed in Western warfare long before anyone in the West had ever heard of Sun Tzu.  Just because someone implemented those principles, which are pretty general, doesn't mean that it had anything to do with Sun Tzu. Ketone16 (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Ketone16. Mark McNeilly doesn't seem to claim that Schwarzkopf looked to Sun Tzu's teachings. He merely blabbers that Schwarzkopf used the same principles. Let me offer a comparision: Shaka Zulu used the same principles as Hannibal (basicly the 'Horns of the Buffalo' is the same as the 'Cannae tactic' - "Surround the enemy force at the right and left, leaving no space to manuever, and then destroy it"). Flamarande (talk) 09:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are probably correct that the book makes an untenable claim, but it is published by Oxford University Press and so is a reliable source.  That said, I don't think it needs a paragraph-long plug in the Legacy section (WP:UNDUE), and its conclusion about Schwartzkopf doesn't have to be stated as fact if there is a dispute about it (WP:NPOV).  RJC TalkContribs 15:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schwarzkopf and ''The Art of War'' 

message: Chinese were very serious about history. They kept very detailed records. There was no comtemporary reference of Suen Wu (Sun Tzu). There were, however, records and contemporary references of Suen Bing and Wu Chi. Both were famous military strategists and wrote treatises on military strategies. They were sometimes referred to in combination, as Chinese often do, by their family names as Suen Wu. It is well known that Ching Shih Huang Ti burned all the books except religious and medicinal books and killed all the scholars except the Legalists. Some old books were hidden and later rediscovered during the Han Dynasty. It seems likely that, during this rediscovery, someone got confused and created a new person and name him Suen Wu and combined the remenants of Suen Bing's and Wu Chi's treatises and created the Art of War.  --VimalaNowlis (talk) 02:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The contention that early records don't mention Sunzi (/Sun Wu) is not true: he is mentioned in both the Spring and Autumn Annals (of Wu and Yue) and in the Shiji (scholars generally give credit to Sima Qian as having very reliable sources).  Please provide evidence for the creation of the Art of War via the synthesis of Sun Bing's and Wu Qi's work.Ferox Seneca (talk) 01:12, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  History created Myth, Myth became History 

message: From the Team Fortress 2 "meet the soldier" video. It mentions Mr. Tzu. (in a quite misinformed manner)
Soldier: "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money...
[The Soldier unhooks two grenades from his belt, one in each hand.]
Soldier: ...to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat...
[The Soldier demonstrates by using the grenades, moving them in a walking motion.]
Soldier: ...and then he beat the crap out of every single one."
[The Soldier bangs the two grenades together repeatedly.]
Soldier: [Laughs to himself] "And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a 'zoo'! ...Unless it's a farm!" 
Not exactly relevant, but entertaining nonetheless. 72.77.81.188 (talk) 23:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Team fortress 2 (game) interpretation 

message: I'm no expert on Sun Tzu's life but the occupation cited in the box seems... rather implausible. Is someone aware of something I'm not, or is this a sad attempt at stealthy wiki vandalism?Paireon (talk) 15:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occupation: Middle class prostitute? really? 

message: I'm guessing that the note about Sun Tzu being a Chinese name and therefore the first part being a family name was added by a Bot? At any rate I don't think it's very helpful as in this case it's not correct - the term Sun was an honorific applied to many of the great Chinese scholars of the period and translates (more-or-less) as Master. 
Unless someone objects I propose removing it and replacing with a more useful statement explaining the general case that the family name comes first and the specific that here it is an honorific.Chris J M Bartlett (talk) 15:18, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it is time for a separate name section... Sun is his Chinese name and Tzu is the honorific. — LlywelynII 13:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese name advice incorrect in this case 

message: If anybody here reads Chinese and is willing to update this wiki page, please look at this site: 
It has good info, but I can't read it...xD
--Fuzzyhair2 (talk) 19:20, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Got Info! 

message: I guess it's probably similar to the "middle class prostitute" - if not, the meaning should be clarified somewhere. I searched the history, and this changed back and forth a few times. However, neither when it was introduced nor when it was removed, the revision comment showed any insight into that particular entry. 188.23.188.92 (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe that listing 'The Universe' under influences is necessary or beneficial, seeing as everyone is influenced by the universe.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.80.154.51 (talk) 04:15, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's (admittedly rather cute) vandalism. Just fix it as it comes in and alert the mods to block the guy's IP if they come by. — LlywelynII 12:28, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influences: The universe? 

message: Per WP:ERA, this edit established the usage of the page as BC/AD pending any strong consensus to the contrary. The lack of consensus above means the use should kindly be maintained. 
[If this post starts another discussion of the point, my vote is against adding an extra (distractingly POINTy) letter to the dates. Regardless, kindly avoid edit warring over the issue until a new consensus has been established.] — LlywelynII 11:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:ERA

message: (a) Personally, I think this is already well-covered by the article and my addition of a Chinese infobox may have fixed the problem, but people still seem to not quite understand how this name works. It's not a western name; it's not a Chinese name, per se; and it's not a well-formatted Wade name. (That would have been Sun-tzu). How do people feel about having a Name section to walk people through this?
Turns out his Old Chinese title was basically identical  *sˤun-tsəʔ (Sun-tsuh)  but his personal name changed quite a bit: from an original *sˤun *maʔ (Sun Mah) to Sun Wu and from *traŋʔ *C.qʰraŋ (Trang Krang) to Changqing. Since the infobox currently can't display that, a name section would give the info some place to park.
(b) Since his personal and style names are so relatively unimportant, I'm going to move them down to the history section from the lede, where including them seems to violate the spirit of WP:UNDUE.
(c) I generally deplore pronunciation guides here instead of at Wiktionary entries and anyone trying to get it seriously right is going to figure out the pinyin anyway, but shouldn't we include an English IPA to get across the basic idea that it should be Soon instead of Sun?
(d) Do any of the sources disputing his existence make the point that his name (Sun Wu) is literally "Martial" / "Warrior Grandson"? Sure, it's a fine Chinese name, but it also reads pretty close to a style name/alias given what his subject matter is. — LlywelynII 14:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Just wanted to point out to the powers-that-be that there has been vandalism on this page recently. I can't figure out how to delete that box unfortunately.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.177.60.51 (talk) 19:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for flagging it. Now resolved. Span (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sponsored content vandalism? 

message: The Science of Strategy Institute site evaluates several translations of Sun Tzu's Art of War.  Is the site worth referencing in the links section?--2606:A000:7D44:100:6080:AD2C:D25B:8337 (talk) 00:38, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Science of Strategy Institute worth mentioning? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello Sun Tzu editors,
I am new to Wiki. I have produced a revision of The Art or War, called The Revised Art of War (naturally).
For full details see this link: <https://keiranproffer.weebly.com/the-revised-art-of-war.html>
A revision has been produced in Chinese, I understand, but mine is the first revision in the English language.
I have been told I may not add this information to the Sun Tzu wiki page myself. Is it acceptable to ask any other Wiki members to do it?
Cath Writer (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Revised Art of War 

message: Back on 19:27, 3 March 2020‎ Sonshi.com was removed "Removed 2 commercial links (Sonshi.com) that sell Sun Tzu books if you click on them. Wikipedia is not for selling your editions of The Art of War to the readers." and yet victoryoverwar which also has its own version editions of The Art of War to sale to readers is retained.  
The only real differences are Sonshi.com allows an option to buy a hard copy of their FREE online version while victoryoverwar directs you to a book store AND is far more "commercial" offering "Keynotes for meetings and conferences Workshops, from half-day, full day, two day, Project-based consulting and One-on-one counseling and coaching".  As far as I can see there are few to no quotes from the Art of War anywhere on that web site.
Since the IP is effectively anonymous it could have come from someone who prefers victoryoverwar's version over Sonshi.com (or worse someone who worked for victoryoverwar; we simply don't know).  If a link is removed for "commercial" reasons then ALL sites that do the same thing should be removed at the same time.  Otherwise it gives the appearance of someone pushing one "commercial" site over the other...especially when the one retained doesn't offer any free versions of their work.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 10:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: On a side note I have checked and Sonshi.com is working fine.  If anyone has problems it is thanks to their ISP and not the website.  This can be confirmed via Is it down right now and/or Is Your Website Down Right Now?  I have also removed victoryoverwar for its blatant commercialization (if Sonshi is removable on those grounds then victoryoverwar is as well. We can't play favorites)--174.99.238.22 (talk) 07:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Again Sonshi.com provides a FREE online version of their translation and assess (not sales) other translations excluding their own in the interest of impartiality.  The only commercial aspect of the site is a plain text print version of their online free translation, an Autographed hardcover version, and a full year program going over 351 lessons in the the Art of War.  Everything else on the site is free.  For those three things we exclude this site?!?  Get real.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 17:29, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: For some reason the link is going to Google's main page and Internet Archive doesn't have a back up.  Thankfully archive today does have a backup.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 14:16, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sonshi.com has been bought by someone else.  The archive today link is the only valid reference.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 05:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Victoryoverwar and Sonshi.com

message: Or if you must use words like "historicity" then please define them the first time you use them.
I had to look this word up, and it means "actual existence". Is that what you meant by it?
Because that is very difficult to extract from the context in which is it used. 2601:200:C000:1A0:B091:A3C7:A63E:212 (talk) 04:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's MUCH better to write for the general reader instead of for scholars 

message: Shouldn't there be at least some reference/elaboration upon how Sun Tzu is frequently falsely quoted to troll people/as a joke? There's literally a generator available online to do this: https://suntzu.noahvdaa.me/ Socialworker2022 (talk) 06:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fake Quotes