Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels/Archive 2

message: :I have moved in the main page talk page content as most of this is Project wide discussion. Leaving that for page related discussion. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 10:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved in main talk

message: I'd like to attempt a fresh start and reactivate the Wikiproject Novels. As I see it, the focus should be on content rather than form: We should lay emphasis on (1) creating new articles on individual novels old and new; (2) expanding existing stubs; and (3) making sure all articles on novels are appropriately categorized and also added to the author, "year in literature" and List of books by title pages.
As an incentive to create new articles, a page (similar to, say, Kingturtle's reading list) entitled Wikipedia:The novel I am reading at the moment (or, more generally, Wikipedia:What I am reading at the moment) could serve as a source of ideas and also provide contributors with a forum to briefly describe, not necessarily in a NPOV way, novels they feel should be included in Wikipedia and which they do not want to, or for some reason cannot, write about themselves.
Only once this is under way should we discuss if greater uniformity of articles on novels is a desired goal and if any templates or whatever should be used.
The whole thing is no big deal, and if nothing happens no harm will be done either.
As a first step I'm going to remove the  sign and add my name. Any comments? <KF> 03:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I didn't respond earlier, but I think this is a really good idea, and one that could really take off (on top of the inevitably smaller Book Club). If you create the page, I'll try and plug it on IRC some. Ambi 00:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No more inactive? 

message: Think all the interesting good books have been covered? You might be surprised what books are missing.  I have created a list of notable books (critically acclaimed or best selling) that may not be covered in wikipedia as part of the Missing Encyclopedic Article wikiproject.  The goal ultimately is to reduce the list to nothing, creating articles or redirects for redlinked movies and removing valid blue links in the list.  For a comparison, you may want to see the companion lists, notable albums and  notable films.  Any area where you can help would be awesome.  Thanks!!! --Reflex Reaction (talk)• 01:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/List of notable books|List of notable books]] 

message: I've created a new template for tagging novel articles, especially those that need additional work. It's almost identical to the WikiProject_Films template, and should be placed at the top of the article's talk page. | Klaw ¡digame! 15:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Template

message: If this an active project can we have a go at sorting out the confusing - "Book stubs" and "Books related categories". With particular attention to genres and sub-genres of fiction / novels and also guidance for editor to know how to use the relvant stub and cateogries. For instance what is the difference between a "spy fiction" and "spy novel" category and when in the hierarchy should this fix. Then how should they be used. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 12:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: expanding existing stubs

message: I have just created this Userbox for our use - I think it will begin to raise the profile of this project if still active. What do you all think.  :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 14:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject Novels Userbox

message: Sections:
#The title (when it needs explanation)
#Plot outline
#Major themes
#Allusions/references to other works
#Literary significance & criticism
#Allusions/references from other works
#Film adaptations
#Sources, references, external links
Just a thought. Most articles won't have all of these sections, of course, but the best articles will probably have all of them. | Klaw ¡digame! 19:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A better template for structuring novel articles

message: While we are here I think we need to talk out the issue of what is a novel and what is not. Personally I tend to use the definition of a fiction book of reasonable length! However I know many use more subjective notion of literary merit to denote "Novel" as distinct from a Fiction book. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 15:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think this is important. It's unlikely that someone will label a nonfiction work a novel, and I don't want to get hung up in debates over whether "Heart of Darkness" is a novel or a novella. If someone wants to call it a novel and work on improving it, that's fine with me. | Klaw ¡digame! 16:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fiction / NonFiction wasn't what I had in mind. Rather qualitative issues e.g. is an title like The Eagle Has Landed a "Novel". Personally I would say yes, however clearly not of the same literary quality as the one you cited. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 16:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, that's definitely a novel. If we start to try to draw qualitative distinctions between good and bad novels, we'll never get anywhere. My interest is more in classics, but if someone wants to attack pulp/mass-market fiction using these guidelines, I would encourage them to do so. | Klaw ¡digame! 16:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good on you, I think much the same way. I tend to read Genre based fiction. But occasionally dip into the classics a bit myself. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 17:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Wikipedia needs help in just about all novel-related areas except possibly science fiction. It's weak in the classics, weak in non-Western lit (including postcolonial), and weak in several genre fiction areas. So I say the more the merrier. | Klaw ¡digame! 19:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second Klaw, we do not need to discriminate between types of novels. They are all one and the same. What we can be picky about is types under the heading of novel. A.K.A. (genres) and catorizationEagle (talk) (desk) 21:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question of what is a "Novel"

message: :This discussion refers to the proposed article outline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate
Okay, I had the idea that was the genral idea, but with an aim of raising our game a little. Did you have some changes particular in mind or did you want to start an article on a specific title with you ideas in it. Should be have a go at a book we have book access to and ideally already both read. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 16:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The outline now resembles the way I structure any novel article that I do heavy work on. I think the two critical things are: 1) project members stick to the template as closely as possible and 2) that we put the  tag on the talk page of any novel we work on to try to get more people involved. | Klaw ¡digame! 16:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely, did you want to adjust the project page to enphasise these or should we do that more when we have worked this up a bit more? Or are we now that confident? :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 16:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the way the outline looks right now. Since User:KF hasn't chimed in, I think it's fair to add the outline to the project page. | Klaw ¡digame! 16:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Just added it with a basic surrounding text. we can rename it later if needed :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 17:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: resemble some of the better articles

message: We need a template similar to {infoboxneeded}, this will allow the category infobox incomplete to be sorted and maintaned by wikipedia. (in terms of table of contents,sorting,and removal of articles when the template is removed from it). This will allow us to keep track of the infoboxes that are not complete in the same manner that we keep track of articles needing an infobox.Eagle (talk) (desk) 16:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: {infoboxincomplete}

message: As of now I don't see this in the active list. How much longer??Eagle (talk) (desk) 21:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to be in a rush but we need to raise awareness to the general community on our templates and methods. ect.Eagle (talk) (desk) 21:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Active??

message: I am regexing for novels that are marked in the book stub.These will be showing up in the novel stubs category.
*This is a simple regex for the word "novel" or "Novel". If it matches those words, and is really about a book (I a human decieds that}, then I am putting it into the novel stub category. I or others can sort them from there.Eagle (talk) (desk) 02:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Novels in book stubs

message: Over the weekend, with the approval of Kevinalewis, I created a temporary template for detailed discussion of fictional characters. I've been a few character articles on Wikipedia, most notably articles on some of the characters in Pride and Prejudice, and found them incomplete. They had little more than plot summaries.
At least one user, Eagle, has questioned the need for such templates. My reply: You wouldn't have to use such a template at all, especially if you didn't want to write about a character. But how can the original novel article possibly do justice to every character in it? Particularly when that character has become a popular archetype for a particular observed attitude--like Seth Pecksniff as an archetype for a unique combination of hypocrisy and unction? Or the incomparable Ebenezer Scrooge?
Not to mention that many novels written in the centuries before the twentieth had many, many characters, so many that they did not, properly speaking, have "main characters" at all. Modern novels are much more tightly written, of course--publishers won't dare risk publishing anything much longer than 100,000 words. But that doesn't apply to many of the novels in a typical "Western Civilization" canon.
Bottom line: articles about characters will be a requirement--and such articles ought to have enough consistency that anyone can find out what he needs to know about them. --Temlakos 18:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is possible the we might be confusing the idea of two different types of templates. The type I think we are discussing here is an article (pattern) template. This provides a standard stucture to article writing and gives prompts to an editor to consider various aspects of the novel before writing it. It also provides a reader friendly format and hopefully logical flow to the subject matter. The other type of template is a wiki (substitution) template. This takes common text, markup and formatting and adds this to the article, talk page, etc at the time a reader is surfing. This means that large numbers of articles can see the same 'information', in the same way in many difference places. It also means that that template can be changed "once" and affect all places where it resides at once. An example of the first type is our ../ArticleTemplate and of the seond type is our . To slightly confuse, some projects use a "template" of the substitutionary type to populate a brand new article with formating of the pattern type mentioned earlier. For example WikiProject main page includes , what this does when placed on a new project page is populate a startup project with a typical layout as a starting block for further amendment. Trust that is useful. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 10:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Depending on what the template is, I have no problem with them. As long as they stay true to the goals of this collaboration (which are really not all that specific). In my view, I say GO FOR IT!!!Eagle (talk) (desk) 19:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible other article templates

message: I think we need a few ideas flowing. This mnight largely be for the new members. We need to get us all envolved and if possible working with each other. All ideas welcome. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 12:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice idea, but as of now we are talking about so many articles that could be targeted. What would be first??? Our project really covers a large range of articles. If we can make this work that would be excellent!!Eagle (talk) (desk) 21:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What Novel would you fancy working one, I'll be happy to work with that!. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 22:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, good one, How about the list of categories on the project main page is it complete, do any need renaming, how should we deal with genreal novels. Personally I see no problem in categorising with two or maybe even more novel genre, as situations suit. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 22:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ideas Factory

message: I am mainly active at Wikisource, but through my interest there I tend to have a lot of "looks" at novel articles.  And I would like to help you out by marking the artcile with appropriate categories and/or stubs.  My questions are as follows.  Do you still recomend the Category structure on the project page?  How about the template, would you like me to put that in any appropriate articles I come across?  Is their a particular stub template you would like me to use so you can locate novel stub easier?  Anything else you would like me to do when coming across random novel articles?--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 19:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, thanks for your input, yes we recommend that structure currently; if there are revisions to make please discuss those on the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Novel_categorization forum. The template :Template:NovelsWikiProject should go on any "Talk page" of a novel article that you think deserves to be included in our efforts. If one still needs an Infobox add the  template (also on the talk page) or if one is present but needing more content add . The stub templates go on the article itself (you probably know that!) and the various ones per genre are on the Heirarchy section of the main project page. Also the /Worklist page could be amended by adding / amending entries for each Novel we are currently working on. That will do for now. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 10:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I would like to help

message: There are mainly two types of plot descriptions in WikiPedia, either a plot teaser (usually taken from back cover or Amazon) or a full plot description. I propose that both of these be included in a article about a novel, as in Prey (novel). This way a reader has the option of reading only the non-spoiler teaser o the full plot. Thank you. Loom91 09:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good suggestion - although if I understand you correctly this is how we see the "Plot Introduction" and "Plot Summary" parts of the pattern template article being used. Hence the spoiler waning at the start of the "summary". So I would recommend that we use both and work that way. Thanks for the input. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 10:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Suggestion concerning plot descriptions

message: could some of you have a look at this article: The Illuminatus! Trilogy to try to bring it up to line? i like the idea mentioned above of trying to arrange it as per 8 defined sections, but cant see how all the existing text could be restructered in that way. it should also be infoboxed etc. p.s. there is a peer review going on at Wikipedia:Peer review/The Illuminatus! Trilogy/archive1, feel free to comment. Zzzzz 20:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[The Illuminatus! Trilogy]]

message: for the year in literature, are we supposed to add EVERYTHING published that year, or only notable works?Gizzakk 04:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry not sure that I understand what you are refering to where is this "year in literature" that you refer to. I'm just being dense I'm sure. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 07:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  oh sorry about that i was referring to this:  List of years in literature  --Gizzakk 04:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Having had a look , my view would be most notable i the summary list and more notable in the individual year list. But no not everything. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 07:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm totally opposed to the policy of Notability, so if you ask me I'll say most notable in summary and everything in the complete list. Yes, I said EVERYTHING you know. Loom91 10:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is how I thought it should be done, but I suppose it should be taken up on the talk page over there. -- Gizzakk 18:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Year in Literature

message: Considering the success of the Xanth novels, I'm marginally surprised that there has been almost no work done on the articles regarding them.--Vercalos 06:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be right but you or someone needs to fill the breach, not familiar with them myself. Please consider joining the project, contributing and joining the process. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 07:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Xanth 

message: Hi all,
Please give feedback on how can I improve writing for articles for novels. You can view two of my works at:
* One Night @ the Call Center
* Shock (novel)
You may give the feedback here as I have this page under watch. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 15:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please Give Feedback

message: Thanks for you input here - for feed back
*remove the () at the begining of the article - I know a lot add this here but it should not be mentioned so early in the article, in the infobox anyway.
*input the ==Caracters in "Shock"== section - if you can (even if with partial list).
*include a  at the end
*include a :Category:Science fiction novels with the others.
*prefer to italise the character names rather than bolden them.
*inclise the project notice at the top of rht _talk page 
I think that will do for now - and thanks for the input :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 17:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shock Feedback

message: Many of the same things apply to this article.
*Main difference being missing a plot summary section and some of that type of material is dispersed in the Character section (good to see it) and the Main Themes section.
Great input - keep going :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 17:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: One Night @ the Call Center Feedback

message: Gnome bot is a bot programmed in C++/CLI. The bot is capible of running any regex operation, making it good for working with stubs and categories, as will as anything else that requires something added, or removed, or changed.
:As of now I propose to use it to help sort WP:NOVEL stubs.
::I believe that the matter is a bit urgent as some people are beginning to delete WP:NOVEL stubs, (the articles are there, just someone needs to actually do it) If you want to see for yourself look at WP:SFD---right now 3 are up for deletion.
:The bot already has a page, will put this stuff up on there, 
:It can be shut off by posting a message on ITS talk page, NOT MINE. 
::The code looks for <new message, in the html. 
:The bot will run for as long as it takes to go through the Novel and Book categories. For the purpose of the Debug, I will do far less than the proposed actions. 
:The bot is automated, and running with very strict regex formula's. (for the debug, I will be on hand to make sure that it does as I say it does)(I can manually tell it to skip an article if the regex is wrong)And than go and fix the regex:-).
:I hope I hit all of the points, scream at me if I did not :-) Eagle (talk) (desk) 05:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Gnome (Bot)]]---Proposed on [[WT:BOT]] 

message: I know WP permits them but I'm not sure I've read a policy articulating why.  Is there one?  Someone was asking over here: Talk:The Crying of Lot 49#spoiler purge.  Thanks.  Esquizombi 09:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoilers

message: At the moment, it seems that the majority of novels are categorized simply as novels, hardly any subcategories.  Obviously, this has created a huge list at:Category:Novels, and it seems rather ridiculous.  I was thinking that perheps we could divide this up into subcategories, such as novels by year, genre etc.  I was also wondering if this has been brought up before anywhere. --Gizzakk 03:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It has. If you look at the "hierarchy section of the main project page there is a formal set of agreed categories (all genres) for novels to be sub devided amongst. Also a set of stub notices that can be used. We are seeking currently to review the book-tubs that are really novels and place them in as correctly as we can, if general novels placing them there or if a genre stub exists place them there. There is a list of these being worked though on the announcements template at the top of the main project page. Also you might like to see the categorization discussion page that can be reached from our navigation template seen at the top of this (and other project pages). Hope that is clear. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 09:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note if you want to find a specific type of novel...That you feel that there are many of, feel free to ring my bell and I will get [[User:Gnome (bot}]] on the task...It was the one that tabulated the Book->Novel list. (As you see pretty accurate)Eagle (talk) (desk) 05:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it be possible to simply use this on the :Category:Novels page or even the novels stub lists to help sort things into genres, years, etc?  the genre would probably be a little more difficult, but I expect years would be fairly easy, and would only require monr tweaking to look for the different years.  Actually I dont know how useful this would be, seeing as how everything is right there in the category anyways; but its a suggestion as there are somewhere around 550 articles in the category that need to be sorted into subcategories. -- Gizzakk 02:30, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Novel Categorization

message: Where can you get legal covers of book? Which website? Skinnyweed 22:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I understand it the book world sees Book covers as a form of advertising and do not object to the use of small pictures of the cover (without change) used to illustrate the book in question. i.e. fair use. So any web sellar of book will use book covers and using those should not cause a problem. The use is limited to illustration of the book in a book related context though. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 07:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book covers