Talk:Muhammad/Archive 8

message: Could someone write a short summary about the recently placed RfC? Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈  t • @ 15:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC SUmmary 

message: The article is now 60+ kb, more than the prefered 32 kb. Should we move some of the text in the biography to the sub-articles i created? --Striver 00:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article size

message: Having the Islam template placed at the beginning of this article and not in the "Islamic views" section is in violation of NPOV. Doing this asserts that Muhammad is essentially not a stand alone historical figure, but a mythical Islamic figure. At Jesus, the Jesus template is placed at the top of the article, while the Christianity template is placed in the appropriate sub-section. As with Jesus, Muhammad is a historical figure whose historical existence is verified (or at least widely recognized), and thus is viewed upon by non-Islamic religions, as well as secularists. Until a Christianity, Judaism, atheist, and all other beliefs' templates are placed at the top of this article, it is POV to place the Islamic template accordingly. Please view the Talk:Jesus archives for detailed discussion on the Christianity issue. — `CRAZY`(IN)`SANE` 22:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you give us a better link, can't find want you want us to see.--Tigeroo 09:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have followed that discussion, and i have to say that the consistent thing would be to treat both article in the same way. --Striver 10:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam template -- poses POV threat 

message: Material from http://experts.about.com/e/m/mu/Muhammad.htm has been used without permission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BookwormUK (talk • contribs) 
:Please see the bottom of that page, where they acknowledge they copied it from us, not the other way around.  Dragons flight 02:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright Violation 

message: No, this is nonsense.Peter Agga
Please do not open this title discussion. This title is considered very offensive and does not show respect towards Islam and also towards Our Beloved Muslim Prophet. — Emrrans 13:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was the prophet Mohammed homosexual?  

message: Was Muhammad illiterate? UNSIGNED COMMENT BY User:Peter Agga
:The article says yes. Please stop trolling! -- Szvest 17:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are actually hadiths that raise doubts about this issue. It is no historically established fact, that Muhammad was illiterate. So this definitely can only be mentioned as belief held by Muslims. --124.176.157.61 10:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is written in the Quran that Mohammad was illiterate. Let's see how you can refute that (206.126.82.31 23:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marhaba 

message: I'm currently running Firefox v. 1.5.0.6, and the "Timeline for Muhammed" is conflicting with other objects on the page. I've provided a link to a screenshot to give you a better idea of what's happening. 
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2056/screenshotmuhammadrz7.jpg
My resolution is 1440x900 pixels (widescreen monitor). Just thought I'd throw it out there if someone knows how to fix it.Hanzolot 03:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just checked the page today, the problem appears to be fixed. Hanzolot 20:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting Issue? 

message: Oral and written descriptions are readily accepted by all traditions of Islam, while Muslims differ as to whether or not visual depictions of Muhammad are permissible[citation needed]: Some Muslims believe that to prevent idolatry and shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah, visual depictions of Muhammad and other prophets of Islam should be prohibited. Other Muslims believe respectful depictions should be allowed [citation needed]. Both sides have produced Islamic art — the aniconists through calligraphy and arabesque, the pictorialists through book illustration and architectural decoration [citation needed]. Negative portrayal of Muhammad, whether spoken, written, drawn, or filmed, may be taken as a great offense by Muslims, see Muslim veneration for Muhammad.
I have not seen any Muslim scholars that say it is good to represent Muhammad. There might be few black sheep. But if you still want to write above misleading claims. Than provide each line with multiple references please. Otherwise do not make huge claims without giving a single reference. ---- Faisal 18:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Faisal, I believe User:Zora was the primary author of that text on the Depictions of Muhammad article (that text is the lead there). (→Netscott) 18:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It does NOT matter who is the author. I will still like to see proper references. Am I wrong in asking for them?? I do not believe that main stream scholars says that it is okay to have pictures of Muhammad (may be very few might say so). If above claim is true than I would have found at "least a single picture of Muhammad" in the houses of thousands of Muslims I met (from Indonesia to Africa). But I have never seen a single picture in Muslim house or Mosque. It is an extremely extra ordinary claim hence where are references.   --- Faisal 18:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Gentlemen what Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani has to say may surprise you then. (→Netscott) 18:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is an impossible task for me set by you. That if I have to correct Muhammad article than I should correct other articles first. I have really less time these days to fulfill such a task. However, I will try to fix this above text with lots of references from Sunni and Shai scholars. That will be still a difficult task but I will give it a try. But remember that burden of proof lies on you as you have added the text. I have the right to remove that unreferenced text otherwise give proper acceptable references. --- Faisal 19:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: that's right, and I'm not defending the text; I'm just saying, if you're going to edit it, maybe adding  tags, why not do it at Depictions of Muhammad at the same time? It the text is objectionable here, it is just as objectionable there, and so far, that article wasn't graced with any warning tags. (ᛎ) qɐp 20:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just cited Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani who made a fatwa in reference to films, television and theatre that said, "If due deference and respect is observed, and the scene does not contain anything that would detract from their holy pictures in the minds [of the viewers], there is no problem." (with respect to portraying Muhammad). That one line goes a long way towards verifying the text in question here, does it not? (→Netscott) 20:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I understand that... but Faisal's tagging up the text as though there's no basis of truth to it and I'm showing that there is indeed basis for truth in it. The other issues are sill left unaddressed. The majority of the above text was arrived at by User:Zora and User:Joturner two rather highly respected Wikipedia editors who tend to focus on Islamic topics. (→Netscott) 20:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen your reference, Netscott. I think it is still undisputed that aniconists are a clear majority. I do not know if "an-aniconists" should be described as a "sizeable" minority, however, but you certainly established that the position has notability. (ᛎ) qɐp 21:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if Shia Muslims represent 10% of the Muslim population (and you surely know they tend to go by what Sistani is saying) then we're talking about ~ 150 Million individuals which is certainly "sizeable" in the context of Wikipedia. (→Netscott) 21:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, it is not obvious that this is the "default" Shia position. It is true that Shiites don't seem to care too much. Maybe their default position is something like "strictly speaking there shouldn't be any images, but whatever man, this isn't the 7th century" (and cheers to them if it is). The question is, does your average Shia Muslim accept Sistani's position? (ᛎ) qɐp 21:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When the man is a Twelver Marja his word is what goes (save for perhaps 20% of the Shia population). Did either of you need more proof? (→Netscott) 21:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so we'd arrive at a minimal estimate of some 8% of Muslims. That's not a "tiny" minority, but I don't know if it should be described as "small" or "sizeable". (ᛎ) qɐp 22:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  1.5 Billion x 8% = 120,000,000 that's equivalent to more than 1 in 3 of the population of the United States. That is a sizeable population. (→Netscott) 22:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: that's not the point. the question is the position's relative notability within Islam. If it was just Shia, it would have to be briefly mentioned on articles on Islam in general, as a minority position, and treated in greater detail in Shia-specific articles. (ᛎ) qɐp 22:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree but the point of this discussion was to show that there was a significant population of Muslims who based upon the fatwa of Sistani would have no problem with an image portraying Muhammad (which BYT and Faisal seemed to have doubts about). (→Netscott) 22:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let the only active Shi'a clear things up: Not all Shi'a belive in the consept of marjas, but the great majority of them does. The others simply view the marjas as learned people. The people that do follow marja, start by choosing one, the one they view is the most knowledgeable (not popular or anything else). Then they view themselves as being obliged to follow any verdict that marja gives, for as long as they choose to follow him. Sistani is one of the biggest Marjas, and holds a huge power. He singlehandidly thwarted the US plan of having a a great Shi'a-Sunni war by vedicting that "we will not fight, even if you kill the last one of us". Thus Shi'a refused to swallow the false flag US bait, not even when they blew up the al-Askari shrine. That much for Sistanis power. So now you have it: Those who follow marja, follow their verdicts, and Sistani has a large amount of followers. Those who do not follow sistani dont care for his verdics, in theory.--Striver 22:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't get it; what do you mean by "the US plan of having a a great Shi'a-Sunni war" and "they blew up the al-Askari shrine"? --The Hungry Hun 19:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Godwin's Law? So soon in this discussion? Personally, I would not compare Hitler to Muhammad (even in this type of a context). (→Netscott) 23:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I was very careful not to fall foul of Godwin's Law. Hitler is a perfect analogy insofar as he is the founder of a movement that has been hated by many, but loved by some. TharkunColl 23:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Even if every Muslim on earth objected to us having a picture here, it should still cut no ice. This is the English language Wikipedia, and every single English-language speaking country on earth has an ancient and unconditional tradition of free speech. This means that we should be able to include whatever picture we like to depict the written content, whatever the consequences. TharkunColl 23:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, really, is that so? --Striver 22:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Austria isn't an "English-language speaking country", so your argument isn't that sound. --The Hungry Hun 19:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Faisal, I tend to have a bit of faith when it comes to the edits of User:Zora and User:Joturner on Islamic topics. But perhaps my faith is misplaced? (→Netscott) 23:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I suppose the above text is a bit weasel worded. While maintaining such language it would be more accurate to say most Muslims subscribe to an aniconistic view when it comes to portrayals of Muhammad but some do not. Or, ~92% (90% Sunni and 2% Shia?) of the world's Muslims subscibe to an aniconistic view when it comes to portrayals of Muhammad while 8% (Twelver Shia) do not (based upon a Fatwa by Ali Sistani). (→Netscott) 23:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: something like that. But keep in mind that these numbers are just pulled out of our sleeves. I would recommend a wording like "large majority" for the aniconistic position. (ᛎ) qɐp 10:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Netscott, that quote from Sistani is actually very very vague on what that means there was a movie called the message and as well as an animated movie done as well on the life of the prophet that can easily fit the bill here or what he could be referring to, and they did this by not showing the prophet at all. There maybe another ruling by him granting allowance, but that's too vague to work off. So while there may be pictures representing him around, they would likely be there inspite a concensus agaisnt it. I think the sentences should be altered to reflect this, unless ofcourse you can source a clearer notable allowance.--Tigeroo 10:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, The Message strictly avoided showing Muhammad - but no matter how large the concessions, it's never sufficient for all: In 1977, stirred up by this very movie, Hamaas Abdul Khaalis - interestingly enough a former Seventh Day Adventist - still considered it an abomination, even without directly depicting Muhammad, and together with a dozen fellow Muslims he seized three buildings in DC and took 120 hostages (one of them being Marion Barry). Several dozens were hurt, Jewish hostages were abused and one reporter was killed. Lesson learned: There's never enough enough appeasement to appease everyone. If you say “Okay, we won't show him”, there will still be some embarrassed by the overall representation. --The Hungry Hun 16:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Netscott, I do not like to believe blindly on any person when its come to Islam teaching. As anyone could be mistaken. I do not believe on Imam-of-Kaba, Or Imam-Hanfi or Imam-Malik etc. I wish to know different people reasoning that they had given according to Islamic text (Qruan/Sunnah/ijma) and then choose one that I feel is more convincing (based on its sources). That is the way I want to find my way out being a Muslim. So even if Zora and Joturner are good people and I like/respect them. But I want to know how they have written what they have written. I want to know there sources. --- Faisal 13:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes that is understood but the way you've tagged up the above text as though it coudln't possibly be true is why I wanted to show you that yes indeed it is true. You've seem to have taken what I was saying into consideration which is good. I suggest you and BYT both try to learn more about the Shia faith. (→Netscott) 13:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it could be improved and MIGHT not be very "true". The text read like the two groups are of equal sizes. I do not know Shia offical position but still think that above text might not represent Shia's offical position. In case it does not represent two groups offical position then it is a big blow for above text. --- Faisal 18:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes dab and I pretty much came to the same conclusion about the lack of propotionality in the wording. As far as the Shia view you might try posting a question over on User:Striver's talk page, I think he's a Twelver. (→Netscott) 18:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freaking Propoganda 

message: This may be a level of detail that should be worked out at Talk:Depictions of Muhammad. Then summary style can be used to frame the section here. Right now the section has the Persian miniature of the Miraj. Are there any big objections to that? Tom Harrison Talk 22:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary style

message: From http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=establish&x=0&y=0
Establish:
#       to found, institute, build, or bring into being on a firm or stable basis: to establish a university; to establish a medical practice.
#	to install or settle in a position, place, business, etc.: to establish one's child in business.
#	to show to be valid or true; prove: to establish the facts of the matter.
#	to cause to be accepted or recognized: to establish a custom; She established herself as a leading surgeon.
#	to bring about permanently: to establish order.
#	to enact, appoint, or ordain for permanence, as a law; fix unalterably.
#	to make (a church) a national or state institution.
#	Cards. to obtain control of (a suit) so that one can win all the subsequent trick
Muhammad's involvement with Islam falls under defintions #4 and #5.
: Encyclopedia of Islam writes: "...Also, he is regarded not as a “founder” but as one who confirmed and restored the true, ancient monotheist faith that was established by the prophet Abraham." --Aminz 10:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Establish vs. Founded

message: Isn't anyone interested in the proposed merger of Islamic view of Muhammad and Islamic views of Muhammad? For example, in the first one, the section The birthday of Muhammad (Mawlid) says,
Most Muslims celebrate Muhammad's birthday with elaborate festivities. Cities and homes are illuminated with colorful lights and candles, parades and processions are carried out, and conferences on the life of the Prophet are held.
Perhaps because I've only been a Muslim for 25 years, and living in America, I've never been invited to one of these celebrations (Mawlid lists the dates through 2021), but who am I to contradict the assertion "most" without proof?
Anyway, the stuff in those two articles looks like a Much Better waste of time than this tiresome debate. --Dennette 18:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just adding gasoline to the fire ... 

message: It appears User:FayssalF has locked the page due to the edit war. While I have no problem with this, I am concerned about the specific administrator who locked the page. The page lock states, "Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version." However, FayssalF himself was involved in the revert war, reverting at least twice from the previous consensus version. And rather than locking the page outright, he reverted once more to his desired version before full-protecting the page. I think this is a clear endorsement of a version and a sad expression of the cabalistic way in which this article is controlled/censored. —Aiden 14:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not directly related but I keep hearing talk of "the previous consensus", and yet I have been unable to spot it. I would very much appreciate it if somebody could point this out to me. (Please take this as it is intended, that there may well be one, and I'm curious, rather than something less in good faith). LinaMishima 15:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I am glad that you appear to agree that the protection was not an issue in it's own right, and perhaps helpful. I agree with you on your points about the initiation of the lock, an unbiased admin should have been asked for. Although it is always a very tough choice as to which version to lock - it wil always be the wrong version no matter which one is chosen. I don't think that removing the lock is the best solution, but rather to work towards a definate understanding of consensus, be that a new one or the old one. LinaMishima 15:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See archive 7. —Aiden 15:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aiden. An administrator has the cabability to judge the behaviour and the nature of contributors. Involving in an edit warring since someone's first edit is not a good sign. I reverted the edit before locking it for that simple reason. Refer to Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. There's no cabalistic consp theories envolved here. You may call it a previous concensus but it is not. -- Szvest 16:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: See archive 7… well, it's a start, and thank you for being the first person to give some assistance with this. It is really appreciated. However archive 7 is pretty large, so any assistance in narrowing down the relivant parts would be appreciated. LinaMishima 16:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm working my way through all the archieves, as this issues actually extended far further back than that, and I have seen some rather disagreable activity happening in archive 7's discussion, from the first part at least (namely shoutings about reliable sources in contradiction to the article). I'll get back to you on the prior consensuses reached once I'm done looking at them all. With respect to FayssalF, now that this issue has been taken up on a more formal level, it would be prudent to stop dicussing it here. LinaMishima 21:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerning the page lock

message: I wanted to add this to the section but it was protected. 
Slavery existed in all the ancient civilizations of Asia, Africa, Europe, and pre-Columbian America and had been accepted and even endorsed by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as other religions of the world, Lewis states. Lewis however states that Islam brought two major changes to ancient slavery 'which were to have far-reaching effects. One of these was the presumption of freedom; the other, the ban on the enslavement of free persons except in strictly defined circumstances.' The position of the Arabian slave was "enormously improved": The Arabian slave 'was now no longer merely a chattel but was also a human being with a certain religious and hence a social status and with certain quasi-legal rights.' The practice of slavery in the Islamic empire represented a 'vast improvement on that inherited from antiquity, from Rome, and from Byzantium.' Bernard Lewis, Race and Slavery in the Middle East, Oxford Univ Press 1994, chapter 1 
I suggest having sub-sections within the "Muhammad the reformer" section. --Aminz 22:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to "Muhammad the reformer" section