Talk:Persecution of Christians/Archive 1

message: "Christians and in particular Christianity have also been persecuted with the arrival of Western Science. Many prominent men have persecuted it, and in return were persecuted by them/it. One prominent example or artifacts are the Inquisition, which the most gruesome torture is to be seen, and Gallieo, who was threatened to withdraw his theory that earth is not the center of the universe or face excommunication, and also Bertrand Russell, who has wrote "Why I am not a Christian" and has been put in jail several times in his life, mainly for reasons unrelated to Christianity." How is the practice of science related to this material, already covered elsewhere? Wetman 20:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Persecution by Scientists"

message: I have made some extensive editions under 'non-biblical sources' for persecutions in the Roman Empire. I changed the heading title to 'Rise of Persecution in the Roman Empire,' because I feel that this title expressed more effectively what the author had been attempting to communicate in the underlying paragraphs (i.e. that persecution became widespread in the Roman Empire through imperial influences, hostility by the Roman public, etc.) I hope this was okay. 
Also, I deleted a paragraph under this heading because it was composed of a statement by Tacitus which was misquoted. I elaborated on the nature of persecution under Nero from A.D. 64-68, beginning with the great Fire at Rome.
I would like to suggest that persecution in the Roman Empire be broken down into the reign(s) of various emperors, simply because imperial edicts and influences bore so much weight on the nature of persecution at this time. 
What do you think?
I hope I didn't take too many liberties with my deletions. 
Sarah20 17:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rise of Persecution in the Roman Empire

message: This is a rather broad statement, but the section on Russia today seems rather non-NPOV (it says that Russians today don't take their religion "seriously").
The article should aslo expain why Christianity was attacked.  For example the Tsars controlled the Church and claimed God wanted them to be slaves. 67.41.186.237 06:49, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet Persecution 

message: I dispute including this:
:According to NT accounts, Judas Iscariot was paid by the priesthood and officers of the Temple to lead them to Jesus when he was alone and away from the crowds (Luke 22:4-6). Jesus was then arrested (Luke 22:54) and taken before the Sanhedrin (ecclesiastical court) (Luke 22:66), who then took him before the Roman governor Pontius Pilate, claiming that he was subverting Roman rule (Luke 23:2). According to the NT, Pilate did not want to give Jesus the death penalty, but Jewish crowds convinced him to have Jesus executed (Luke 23:13-24, 33). According to Matthew 27, Pilate's wife told him of a dream warning him against any dealings with Jesus, could have supposedly influenced his judgement.
as an example of Jews persecuting Christians, because at that time no Jew thought that Jesus or Judas or Peter or anyone was not Jewish.  It is certainly true that by the time of Paul (i.e. not much later) Christianity had emerged as a Jewish sect that Pharisees did persecute.  Good scholarship means avoiding anachronisms: we have to distinguish between Jews whom Christians came to identify with the origins of their religion; Jewish Christians at a time of sectarian conflic among Jews; and Christians, a new religion clearly separate from Judaism. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 18:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While it's true that Christians were not referred to as "Christians" until sometime later in the city of Antioch, Jesus and his followers were deemed outlaws by the Pharasee Jews and clearly persecution of this new faith started officially at the execution of Jesus. However, harrassment of followers of the "Nazareen" began during Jesus' preaching. Soon after the execution of Jesus, the Jews engaged in efforts to find and kill all followers of Jesus, i.e. Christians. Saul, before becoming Paul, was part of this effort. These Jews also asserted to the Romans that Christians were dangerous and must be killed. The Romans fearing anything that could lead to more Jewish revolts, followed the advice of the Jewish leaders and sought out Christians in order to kill. So, keeping the references in that format are appropriate. Jtpaladin 18:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article gives a good view of why the Pharisee Jews were out to kill the Christians. As for Jewish revolts, I would refer you to the Kitos War and Bar Kokhba's revolt. The Romans already considered the Jews a group of people prone to revolts so they needed no reassurance from the Pharisees on that topic. Jesus had been found innocent by the Roman governor and the Romans did not consider the Christians any sort of threat until prodded by Pharisee Jews into action. In fact, Imperial persecution did not exist until Nero burned down part of Rome so he could put up new buildings and blamed it on the Christians. Jtpaladin 14:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  not Christians, but Jews 

message: In addition to cutting the meaningless paragraph discussed above, I also deleted a paragraph suggesting reasons for why Saul of Tarsus persecuted Christians.  The reaons I did this is that none of the suggestions had any citations, and thus seemed to me to be original research.  I know of only one explanation for the persecution.  I added it, and provided the proper source.  It would not surprise me at all that there be other suggestions as to why Saul persecuted Christians and I do hope that other editors will add them to that section -- along with citations. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 17:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent cut 

message: Please stop deleting the Nazi section. It's pertinent. At best, your claim is controversial, so include a paragraph about why some would think Nazism counts as a Christian sect. [edit: Sorry about the multiple entries. Had a lag problem.]--DNicholls 05:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revolucion 

message: *Section entitled "Nazi-Fascist persecution" should go under "Persecution of Christians by other Christians"
Support:
#Revolución 23:13, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal #1

message: *Section should not be moved
Support:
#Ritchy 24 July 2005
#--DNicholls 03:53, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal #2

message: I'm a bit lost as why this is disputed. Islamic persecution undoubtly existed just like Christian persecution of Muslims also exists. The biggest problem with the section is that it is way too modern. What about the Arabian empires persecution of Christians.
:I know the feeling. Just like Christian Persecution against homosexuals undoubtly exist, but there will always be those who try to white wash and minimize such things.--Lucavix 23:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This section should not be disputed. It should be expanded. There have been a couple of news stories in the past month about Christians fearing imprisonment and execution in Egypt and Afghanistan simply for being Christians (this and this come to mind). It makes sense that the section has a modern slant, because modern Islamists are responsible for most of the persecution Christians have faced in Muslim countries. Ecto 04:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The disputed label for this section should be removed, seeing as there is no justification for the NPOV dispute posted, contrary to Wikipedia policy ("How to initiate an NPOV dispute"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute Panzer101 20:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islamic persecution of Christians

message: This isn't under NPOV but this section is way too short. Persecution of Christians in China has existed for probably a century and 1/2 at one point even eliminating Christianitys existence in Eastern China. It needs to be expanded.(The house churches could use a bit more info too)
:Don't forget about allegations that in modern China christians are treated unfairly by authorities, issued greater fines and harsher sentences simply because the Police there often discriminate. --Lucavix 23:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Persecution in China

message: I understand why this is disputed because of little documentation coming from these countries on this type of info.  
Christian persecution is known to exist, in North Korea, Cambodia, Laos, Lebanon, and discrimination in the Maldives.(not sure about persecution).  Vietnam is likely. Now I'm not familiar with Sri Lanka, Bhutan, or Afghanistan but Nepal should be mentioned as it is likely far more notable than these three. I believe North Korea, Nepal, and Lebanon all merit there own sections (possibly Cambodia). The others probably don't need to be mentioned. If the others are kept to keep NPOV it should be mentioned that some believe persecution has taken place in the following countries. Falphin 21:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't understand why killing missionaries is persectution??? If killing people because of their religious ideas is not persecution then what is? In truly free countries Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and any other faith should be able to both practice and propagate their ideas, as they are in most Western counties. If they can't, then it's persecution. Paul B 12:25, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Christian Persecution in Other Countries

message: I've taken out the word "murder and enslavement" and replaced them with "persecution" because I think they are too emotional. I also added some of the context of the Darfur conflict so that points out some of the other deaths and possible causes. I think that the article has to be neutral if it's goin' to be taken seriously and at the moment it isn't very neutral. 
I also added "alleged Islamists", because the government of Sudan is officially secular and portraying the army as "Islamists" presents a very simplified view of the conflict, which deniers of the genocide in Sudan could use to discredit opposing views. I've also made a few changes to the other sections including changing the titles from "murder and enslavement", because once again I think it's too emotional. 
I didn't really look at the "persecution in Indonesia" section and it seems to me someone needs to take a look at that, too. 
XYaAsehShalomX 13:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sudan and other conflicts 

message: I understand that, at least in the early days of Christianity, it was legitimately persecuted.  But the modern day examples are simply random incidents of hate crimes, i.e. one missionary getting killed by "Hindu nationalists".  Yeah, whatever.  I don't see how that makes it notable.  By this reasoning you could make an article on "Persecution of X", where X is any group whose members have been treated differently because of some characteristic of X.  For instance, you could write an article on "Persecution of Redskins fans" because wearing a Redskins jersey at a Cowboys game can get you beaten up.  --Cyde Weys 2M-VOTE 21:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the purpose of the later sections in this article? 

message: I found the following at the end of this little peice of info:
" I love you."
I simply erased it because it had no pertinence to the subject.--Brandeis 21:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Persecution in other Eastern Bloc nations

message: The following was found directly in the text of the article after the statement that in WWII prodistants were persectuted becuase of percieved ties to the west:
"That's not really true - my grandfather was an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army in the 30s and 40s and had no problems."
This kind of material belongs on the Talk page, and has since been removed from the text of the article itself. Thanatosimii 03:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese persecution 

message: There has been some serious vandalism by Maintenance who has deleted the content of the Historical persecution by Christians article and replaced it with content from this article, then renamed it as persecution of Christians - leading to the absurd merger suggestion between articles that are supposed to refer to opposed concepts/events (though of course there always was some overlap because much persecution of Christians has been by other Christians). Ideally we should have identical titles for these articles - both "Historial Persecution...", or both just "Persecution...". I have tried to reverse things, but have, sadly created a bit of a mess myself by cutting-and-pasting, leading to some pretty chaotic redirects and loss of edit histories.Paul B 14:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: vandalism by [[User:Maintenance]]

message: I deleted this:
"...one of the biggest in terms of number of victims, and was a direct inspiration for Hitler's Final Solution.  However, it was often ignored or given little significance by many Western governments for most of the 20th Century, due to political pressure from Turkey, one of the West's few allies in the Middle-East.  And although Western governments have begun recognising the genocide in the past few years, Turkey still officially denies that it took place. However, Turkey has begun to debate the genocide in public as a result of pressure from the EU, recently (September 2005) holding a conference to discuss it."
First off, this is a history of the debate about Christian persecution in the Ottoman Empire, not a history of the persecution itself.  It's irrelevant.
Second, the Ottomans' massacres of the Armenians and other groups during the Great War and War of Independence were not a direct inspiration for Hitler's final solution.  To say that is to absolutely misunderstand Hitler's character and the nature of European anti-Semitism, and it's insulting.  There is one quotation attributed to Hitler talking about the Armenians--that's hardly proof of a direct inspiration.  Europeans had been killing Jews for years, and it's simply atrocious to make this claim.
If anyone wants to discuss what the Ottomans and Turks did to Christians, fine, but if we can keep the issue focused and historical, that would be best.  Hashshashin 16:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Persecution in the Ottoman Empire

message: Besides the recurring issues of POV and factual accuracy, this article has begun to suffer from many, many edits that result in a poor layout and choppy flow. I propose reorgainizing it so that it flows better and presents the subject in a more logical progression. I'm posting this as a heads up that I intend to start working on this in a few days, and want to make sure that my edits don't offend anyone. At this point, I don't intend any major content edits, but just a reorganization. That said, I will try to add sources where I can, and relate the references directly to the statements being made (this is what everyone involved with this article needs to consider doing...there's a huge "references" section, but it's not footnoted to specific statements in the text, and for a subject this sensitive, such direct referencing is really essential). 
As I reorganize, though, I will be looking at individual sections that are tagged as POV or neutrality problems, or are otherwise disputed, to try and see how this can be resolved. My goal here is to produce a high-quality article. Whether individual readers dispute the reality or not of persecution is not a subject for the article itself, but for this talk page. Persecution of Christians is a documented problem in this world, just as much as persecution of other ethnic and religious groups. Therefore, in the interest of studying the problem and its causes and ramifications, a high-quality, NPOV article is essential for the integrity of the Wikipedia project.
Lastly, about tags: several sections are tagged with dispute or neutality tags. Each tag, ideally, should have a corresponding discussion - or at least a statement by the tagging editor - on this talk page as to why that tag is there, what the specific problem is, and a proposed (if possible) solution. Tags without corresponding talk page entries are essentially vandalism, because they denegrate the section without being justified. Consequently I will be removing them. If you've added a tag, please add a section to this talk page. 
Oh, one more thing...once this talk page gets to 30 subjects, I'll be archiving it, as well. Thanks, and please let me know any suggestions you may have. Akradecki 15:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: revamp and cleanup needed

message: I have reverted the edits by an anonymous user.  If you wish, we can discuss the changes here, but I saw them as POV.  LawrenceTrevallion 13:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have gone ahead and taken it back before the anon, as the anon editor was not only inserting POV material, but material that should have been in a different article. It focused on how Christians persecuted others, which, though a valid subject for discussion, should be in the article Historical persecution by Christians. That's why there's a directory box on the right of this article. The subject of persecution can quickly get out of hand if not carefully organized. The focus of the article here is Persecution of Christians, and we need to focus on just that here. Akradecki 18:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits by Anon user

message: Just a question about the use of the New Testament as evidence of Judeo-Christian persecution; is it entirely plausible to use a single document, particularly one as controversial as the Bible, as the basis for such an article? It seems particularly ironic that the use of the New Testament is unquestioned, whilst the general Wikipedian consensus is that if you haven't acquired a suitable, recognizable, and above all demonstrable source, your additions are stricken and you are lampooned by the rest of the community. 
The only way to resolve this inconsistency appears to be to remove the Biblican evidence of the persecution of Christians, and instead rely upon the latest historiographical evidence and theories. -- Australia, 22 October, 2006
*Whoa, hold on. It's definitely not a bad idea to back up Biblical sources, and perhaps it should be expressed these are NT sources, but the amount of controversy over Biblical sources vary. Without it, one would have a very shattered view of the early church. 74.137.230.39 00:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question about Biblical sources

message: Note:  This is not to be anti-Semitic, but to in the end understand why the conflict other agressions between Christians and Jews arose
I have not read numerous martyrdom accounts from the time of the early Christians, but in the martyrdom account of St. Polycarp circa 160, there is a line (13:1) in which it mentions that the Jews also participated in gathering wood for the fire.  I thought a mentioning of such would show the continuity the Jewish persecution of Christians after St. Paul and the book of Acts.  I took a college course of the Early Western Civilization, which in it we were told that there were not very many direct persecutions of the Christians, i.e, Roman soldiers going out and looking for Christians, but citizens (and not infrequently Jews) reported them to officials to have them tried.  I don't know if this is the most correct, but if it is, I believe there should be a mentioning of how it was not uncommon (nor unreasonable) for Jews to help in the persecution of Christians.  I say not unreasonable, because from their perspective we can assume it was like Sauls, viewing Christianity as a heretical offshoot.  Please tell me what you think, about adding this in under "Jewish persecution of Christians."  Also I don't fully think it describes the motives of the Jews, to say they only persecuted the Christians becuase it was "seditious" from Rome.  It really was a differing view between two different groups, each considering the other incorrect or inferior.--Francis419jn655 22:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: St. Polycarp, martyrdom and Jewish participation

message: Thats stupid. Persecution means "persistent mistreatment of an individual or group by another group". "Other christians" are obviously not candidates for christian persecution... Fresheneesz 06:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are groups within Christianity that have persecuted one another. For example, Protestants have persecuted Catholics, and Catholics have persecuted Protestants. Both Protestants and Catholics are Christians, but if you're a Protestant, you belong to one group of Christians, and if you're a Catholic, you belong to another, and there can be persecution between these groups. So yeah, Christians can persecute one another, because there are these smaller groups within Christianity as a whole. Ecto 13:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However, Persecution of a religion implies that it is being done on the basis of the religion itself. When one denomination has persecuted the other, it has been on theological intra-faith grounds. To apply the term "persecution of christians," one must have evidence that the persecutor thought to himself, "This person is a christian, and for that reason I shall persecute him." What's being described in this section is somthing more along the lines of christian schisms leading to violence, which did contain persectuion, but not systematic persecution of Christians on the basis of their christianity. Thanatosimii 16:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are different versions of the Christian religion (some people speak of Christianities rather than Christianity), and these religious differences between these versions of the religion gives cause for religious persecution. The only diffference is that the person thinks, "This person is a certain kind of Christian, and for that reason I will persecute him." The principle is the same, just more focused. Ecto 22:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because that's not persecution of christians, it's persecution of a sect which happens to be christian, and there is a difference. In this context, persecution clearly means persection ipso nomine, not inter-religious schisms. Persecution wherein the persecutees happen to be christian is not necesarrily persecution of christians. Thanatosimii 01:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In what context? Not including the persecution of Christians by other Christians is ridiculously POV Lurker oi! 14:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persecution of christians by christians?  

message: I am somewhat amused to find that "Christian Whining" redirects to "Persecution of Christians".  While it doesn't bother me much, I figured I should bring it to someone's attention in case it was something that needed to be removed.--Raguleader 12:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Christian Whining" 

message: The article will benefit from basic copy editing and fact checking.  I have started to do so and could use assistance. Majoreditor 22:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are the NPOV tags still needed for the sections entitled Discrimination and persecution in other Arab and Muslim nations and for Jewish Persecution of Christians, or have NPOV issues been resolved?  Please comment and explain why they are still needed or why they should be removed.  Thanks. Majoreditor 15:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs cleanup 

message: There's an edit war going on over the content of the India section. Will the involved parties please attempt to resolve issues through discussion on this talk page?  Thanks, 23:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on Persecution In India 

message: Every body should chill a little bit especially with regard to the anti-conversion laws in India paragraph.  Remember the three revert rule.  I think it is time to discuss whether that paragraph should be in or not.  -- Selket Talk 13:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR warning 

message: Under "Persecution of early Christians by Romans", "Persecutions narrated in the New Testament", there is a reference to John the apostle as the "writer of the Book of Revelation" which should be deleted. The author of Revelation could one of several people as that article says. If there is no objection that phrase will be deleted.  Chrisbak 05:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alert to description of apostle John as "writer of the Book of Revelation" 

message: How about persecution by secularists, e.g. persecution against Rocco Buttiglione and Ruth Kelly? Hammer1000 09:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are these cases of persecution or opposition? Majoreditor 21:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I suggest the information be moved to Anti-Christian prejudice. --Kevinkor2 12:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persecution by secularists 

message: Substituted at 21:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment