Talk:History of Freemasonry

message: Could the above French phrase (meaning brother or fellow mason) be the origin of the term Freemason? Thoughts? Fergananim 24.8.05.
:Interesting point that I had never considered.  Any idea when Frere Masoun was first used?  I have never been entirely happy with the 'Freestone Mason' explanation but have never seen a better one.ping 09:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Frere Masoun

message: This article is puny.  There are better structured history sections in Anti-Freemasonry and Freemasonry.  Can discussion of the whole merger be conducted here? JASpencer 22:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been planning a complete rewrite for a while now... But I keep getting sidetracked to other articles dealing with Freemasonry.  I hope to upload a draft in a month or so (still doing research and finding proper citations).  Topics I plan to expand: Origins: to include brief discussion of other origin possibilities. Sections to be added: Post 1717 England, America, France, and many other nations and parts of the world... IE most of the history of Freemasonry.  If you merge this back to Freemasonry, I will simply have to recreate it when I have finished my draft. Blueboar 00:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would disagree with merging a lot of the historical material from the Anti-masonry page here.  I do agree that you can not discuss the history of Freemasonry properly without mentioning the negative side of things (for example, you can not discuss Freemasonry in 1700s France or 1800s Italy without mentioning anti-clericism), and some of the historical material at the Anti-Masonry page could be incorporated here.  However, I would not support simply deleting the historical material from Anti-Masonry.  That material is a large part of what makes Anti-Masonry a distict phenominon, a "movement" if you will.  It is vital to that article and seperates it from the various "(Name of Group) and Freemasonry" sub-articles that various people have been starting recently.  It is part of what links them all together and makes the Anti-Masonry Article interesting. In many ways the Anti-Masonry article should really be called "History of Anti-Masonry"Blueboar 02:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge Proposal

message: I have merged the material from the main Freemasonry Article in an attempt to more fully develop the History of Freemasonry article and to allow the Freemasonry editors to shorten the history section on the main page.  Because of this, I believe the merge tag can be removed and will do this.  If there are any problems bring them up and we can readd the merge tag. Chtirrell 04:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merged Material from the main Freemasonry Article

message: As I did in the main Freemasonry article, I have deleted statements about the Unity of Freemasonry (in relation to the GOdF / UGLE schism) and citations to the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia used to back these statements.  I have discussed these in more depth at the main article (see that talk page), but as far as this article goes: not only were the statements wrong, the citations didn't back them.  First, one of the references was used to show how there was supposedly a unity in Masonry during World War One... The CE cited to an article in an American Masonic journal dated 1906... well before the war.  The Schism was in full swing at the time, and thus the referenced journal could not be said to reflect the state of relations at the time.  The other simply did not support the statement.  Yes, there was a relaxation in the Schism during the war... but this was a unique situation.  Prior to it, and again after it, the schism was in full force. Blueboar 19:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unity of Freemasonry? 

message: If this is a history of Freemasonry, it should include only verifiable facts, not possiblities, vague theories and speculation.  Otherwise perhaps Origins of Freemasonry would be a better title for a separate page on Freemasonry pre-1717.  Either way, there is an awful lot of unsourced stuff and historically dodgy stuff here.  For example, the formation Of the Masons' Livery Company in London in 1356 is mentioned.  But there is no evidence given for any link between it and Freemasonry.  So why is it here?  There are many other examples...--Stonemad GB 23:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The title is not misleading, the article is just incomplete.  Several editors have expressed the desire to expand this beyond 1717 (tracing the developement of Freemasonry to other parts of the world for example)... but all of them are bogged down in other articles at the moment.  You are correct in saying that there is a lot unsourced things... I can assure you that finding reliable sources is on the to do list.  Feel free to help out.  Blueboar 23:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misleading title

message: This is a very good site full of interesting information, well done to all of those that has contributed and are continuing the effort. In my copy of Lanes Masonic Records 1717- 1894 (the 2000 reprint) I note that there is reference made to The Grand Lodge of All England at York and The Grand Lodge of England South of the River Trent. There is also a list of all the lodges and dates of their consecrations. From a historical point of view I am of the view that there should be mention of these Grand Lodges as they are part of masonic history that we are trying to document. Any views? 
Aquizard 20:50, 21 Janaury 2007 (UTC)
:This may not be the place to do that  yet . check :Category:WikiProject Freemasonry for possibly more apt & needy article, which we can tie into this one? Or not...21:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of the tiny Grand Lodges that you talk about did not long survive or were eventually merged into either the Ancient or Modern Grand Lodges.  I don't think we need to mention every tiny Grand Lodge that was ever formed.  It is important to discuss the Ancients/Moderns split because it had an impact on Freemasonry in general... affecting the growth of Freemasonry in America, and eventually resulting in the formation of UGLE. Blueboar 15:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mention of other Grand Lodges

message: Regarding the date of the Regius manuscript Andrew Prescott of Sheffield University Masonic research Centre dates it to the early to middle 15th century (roughly 40-50 years after 1390), see the Transactions of the Canonbury conference 3. Also the word 'freemason' was used to refer to the trade of an individual for many years after the formation of the grand lodge in 1717, try the national Archives website and you will soon find references to people who were quite clearly stonemasons not speculative craft freemasons from as late as the 1750s - the operative side of freemasonry tends to be utilised to provide foundation myths for freemasonry and the so-called 'old charges' are scoured for evidence of ritual and esoteric content, however what they really represent is evidence in the history of labour relations and it is perhaps time for the reappearance of the 18th century stonemason within the pages of wiki. There does appear to be a gradual movement towards a new wave of transition theories regarding freemasonry, see Mathew Scanlan's article in Freemasonry Today on 'fatal flaws' in scholarship over the Christopher Wren/masonic connections, and the writings of Andy Durr, Andrew Prescott and Bob James all of whom have, in different ways, placed stonemasonry firmly back into the story of Freemasonry  bamboodragon 01:12 19 March 2007 (UTC)
:Again here, what are you getting at?  40-50 years off on something that's over 600 years old isn't that bad, and I have no idea what point you are trying to make with your quoting of sources.  I'm sure there's a Stonemasonry article, and if there isn't, go ahead and make one, I guess. MSJapan 01:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manuscripts and (stone)masons 

message: The reference to Benjamin Franklin has been removed because he was de-recognised in France andrefused his honours because his Lodge in Philadelphia was, in fact, an unwarranted Lodge.  The reference to it being a Moderns/Antients matter is untrue.
:Well, that's news to me.  Do you have a source for this? MSJapan 15:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Benjamin Franklin

message: My Brothers, rather than get into an edit war... can we discuss the pros and cons of both spelling varients, determine what the current consensus is, and agree to go with that consensus? Blueboar 13:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We seem to be having a project wide revert war over whether to use "Ancient" (with a "c") or "Antient" (with a "t").  We need to hammer this out and reach a consensus, and we should do so in one central location.  Since this impacts several articles, I have started a thread at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Freemasonry#Ancients vs. Antients... consensus? to be that central location.  Please discuss at that thread.
Thank you, Blueboar 13:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancient vs. Antient... again 

message: Great section, although it obviously could use some work in beefing it up, but there sees to be one glaring omission:  discussion of the Two Degree system, and how/why those Degrees morphed into the Three Degree system.  I believe Andersen in 1723 is the first mention of the third degree, but I'm not sure.--Vidkun 16:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creation of the Third Degree 

message: The time has come for us to focus on this article again.  As I see it, there are several areas that could use work:
#Expand and improve on the Origins section - this is a "hot" topic in popular culture, and I think it needs more discussion.  I would suggest splitting it off into it's own "Origins of Freemasonry" article, where we can more fully discuss the various origin theories and properly evaluate them.
#Improve the discription of the growning differences between "Anglo" style and "Continental" style Freemasonry during the 1800 (prior to the Schism) - Continental Freemasonry was much more involved in European politics and Anti-clericism than Anglo Freemasonry.  While the split did not officially occur until the 1870s, the two were growing in very different directions. It explains (for example) quite a lot about the historical antagonism between the Catholic Church and the fraternity.
#Start adding material about the growth of the fraternity outside England, the US and France. - in the Intro we mention that Freemasonry is world wide, but we don't mention anything beyond these three countries.  What about Freemasonry in the British Empire or South America, etc.?
I could probably go on, but I think these three items will be enough for now (each is quite a task).  Any thoughts before we begin? Blueboar 13:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving this article forward 

message: We seem to be in a minor edit war over sourcing the Egyptian origins theory... I have had to remove a citation to an essay by Thomas Paine several times. Paine does not say that Freemasonry originated in Egypt and the building of the pyramids... in fact he specifically says that he does not agree with that idea.  Paine states that Freemasonry stems from the Druids.  
I am sure that we can cite the Egyptian origin theory to someone (which is why I have left the statement in the article and only removed the citation) ... but it is incorrect to cite the theory to Thomas Paine. Blueboar (talk) 18:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egyptian origins and Thomas Paine 

message: I do think we need to mention the involvement of Freemasonry in the Paris Commune... but I am not sure that this is a topic that is worth as much article space as we give it.  I think the Paris Commune is a good example of a far more important sub-topic that should be focussed on... the growing involvement of Continental Freemasonry in political affairs during the 19th Century.  This is another factor in the schism between the Continental Branch of Freemasonry and the Anglo-US branch Freemasonry (with the Anglo-US branch adhearing to a strick "no politics" rule).  This politicalization of the fraternity in Europe (and by extension in other parts of the world) also factors into the growing antagonism of the Roman Catholic Church during this era. Blueboar (talk) 14:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paris Commune 

message: I see no problem with the text on the left-hand side of this diff. kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 01:54, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I just think that it is too long and overly detailed for this article, which is supposed to be a broad sweep summary of all of Masonic history.  The material would be a really good start to a more focused article... on, for example,  Freemasonry in the Age of Enlightenment. Blueboar (talk) 02:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Margaret Jacobs 

message: I discovered a box with the FreeMasons emblem on the top. Handcarved. I'ts old. I would like to know were to take it. I don't know if it was crafted or bt who. It appears to be made of wood and it is old.Maybe I am just taking up your time. Sorry if I am. But if you can help me I would be forever grateful. Thankyou. e.mail willowlaniac@aol.com
67.248.10.92 (talk) 02:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This talk page is only for discussing improvements to the History of Freemasonry article. That being said, I suggest you contact a Masonic Research Lodge. --Loremaster (talk) 21:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  finding a.box 

message: I have largely rewritten the introduction because the main point it seemed to be making was that Masonic history gets easy after 1717 because of the wealth of material, and we all know this is not the case. Since a lot of work needs done on the rest of the article, I wouldn't mind reworking the older sections with better references over a couple of months. I hope what I've changed so for reads better and gives a more realistic overview.Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:38, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: So far, I hope I've established a timeline, and included all the topics that need to be included. 
To do:- Mainly tidying and expanding the references. If anybody can see any glaring omissions, please feel free...  Fiddlersmouth (talk) 16:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good Job... my only quibble is that we now give a lot of weight (too much weight?) to what was going on in Scotland during this period.  I realize that one reason for this is simply that more Scottish primary source records exist for this period - and, thus, there is more academic scholarship on what was going on in Scotland than there is on what was going on in England (or Ireland)... but it does skew the article somewhat.  Blueboar (talk) 13:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Logged and registered. As you say, there is more primary material. There is also a distinct absence of Templars, and the Sinclair section was, I felt, useful in clarifying some of the published mythology. It also seems to be the case that the probable origin of entered apprentice, cowan, brother, the "masons word", and the "signs and tokens " is Scottish. Ireland becomes much more important in the second and third quarters of the eighteenth century, and I intend to redress the balance on English masonry in the next section.Fiddlersmouth (talk) 16:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins to Grand Lodge 

message: I have just removed this section, since it hardly said anything, and as such (I thought) detracted from the article. Having said that, the article would probably benefit from having the subject properly dealt with. If anybody feels brave, I've saved the references on the talk page of my sandbox.  Fiddlersmouth (talk) 19:38, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Role of Freemasonry in the Enlightenment 

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thread_title:  Trouble archiving links on the article 

message: There was a secret word, used perhaps only in Scotland, and the word was (drum roll)... "Mohabyn" (likely) meaning "comrade". Source: http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/servlet/org.oclc.lac.ui.DialABookServlet?oclcnum=47805094 or Jasper Ridley's authoratative book on the Freemasons. 108.213.76.24 (talk) 16:29, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing new... this particular secret word was "revealed" several centuries ago (in the 1750s if I remember correctly).    Blueboar (talk) 17:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Ridley seems to have been the only researcher to come up with Mohabyn. There are several versions of the word, starting with Matchpin (Trinity College, Dublin MS, 1712). For several reasons, getting "comrade" from "marrow" is simply arcane, and Ridley is missing the point. The Graham MS (1725) gives there is marrow in it (after pulling a finger from a rotting Noah). There is a more credible Hebrew translation, but lack of usable text, and the differences between lodges, would make any discussion in the article inadmissible original research. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 00:08, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually... this whole thread misses an important point.  The purpose of this article isn't to discuss (or expose) the rituals (as fun as that might be)... the purpose is to give a broad overview of the fraternity's history. So we would not discuss a "secret word" in the article even if we had a solid source for it... it's not really within the scope of the article. Blueboar (talk) 16:32, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Mason Word was an important badge of identity for early Freemasons in Scotland, and is mentioned in 17/18th century Scottish poetry and literature. Stevenson defines it as the whole secret recognition procedure, so it rates a mention. Nailing it down is next to impossible, and Ridley is WAY off the mark. One for the to do list. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 21:57, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - conceptually it is important, but there are no definite details.  On the subject of exposures, though, I've just come across another one which I was unaware of (courtesy of Arturo de Hoyos), so I could see there being enough content and historical significance to talk about such elsewhere. MSJapan (talk) 23:21, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: So, potentially a review here, maybe under 17th Century Scottish history. I note the Marquis de Gages ritual from 1763 has Mac Benac - "The flesh leaves the bone" or "The flesh is rotten". Nobody else has noticed in English papers, and the French seem much more obsessed with the philosophy and inner meaning of the craft. A separate article would probably have to rely too much on primary sources. I'm happy to be proved wrong. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 01:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secret word 

message: Section opened with "In long-term historical perspective, Norman Davies has argued that Freemasonry was a powerful force on behalf of Liberalism in Europe, from about 1700 to the twentieth century." Norman Davies said no such thing - even the pagination in the reference is wrong, so I suspect the perpetrator took it from another source without reading it. Removing material already included in the article left next to nothing. Still needs addressed, particularly the Margaret Jacobs material. Maybe in "Politics and Freemasonry?". Fiddlersmouth (talk) 00:15, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. Anyone can read Davies' full treatment at   Rjensen (talk) 16:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Just read it (again), and it still does not properly support what the paragraph says.  If you want to include Davies’ opinion, I suggest you simply quote his words directly. Blueboar (talk) 17:50, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

text: Yeah, sounds like it needs better sourcing and specifics, as well as clarification.  My general sense is that much of the "politics" was the result of the suborning of Lodges in France prior to the French Revolution, and the reaction of the Pope.  In the case of the overt Masonic connection with the Boston Tea Party, I've only found it anecdotally - it wasn't stated in the minutes (which have been referred to in other sources) that the meeting was adjourned to go down to the harbor, but the impression of such had some impact much later. So some thought in that contextual direction is important as well, as I'm sure there are other examples; those are just the ones that come to mind. MSJapan (talk) 05:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. One of the things we need to remember when writing about the influence of Freemasonry on politics is that there is a lot of misinformation and poor scholarship out there... and not just by the conspiracy theorists.  A lot of misinformation comes from patriotic Freemasons, who perpetuate myths in an attempt to demonstrate how wonderful the Craft is, and how important it was in the formation of their country (whatever that country might be).  The Craft's supporters can be just as guilty of overstating Freemasonry's influence as the Craft's detractors. Blueboar (talk) 13:04, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My own research agrees with both of your assessments. Much is made of the Duc D'Orleans instructing the GOdF to support the French revolution by authors who neglect to mention the same revolution putting his head on a stick. Freemasons fantasise about their past influence, but it is largely chimeric. Non-events are notoriously hard to reference. On the other hand (for example) Frederick the Great (as Crown Prince) attended about three meetings of the Three Globes. That got him Grand Master and the Three Globes became Grand National Motherlodge. He never went to lodge again, but remained Grand Master - sounds more like "I own your ass" than masonic influence the other way. Similarly, the Unlawful Societies Act did a lot to combine the Ancients and Moderns into UGLE. In the absence of as detailed analysis of Freemasonry's almost total failure to influence politics, a paragraph on the impact of politics on Freemasonry would redress the balance, and would be relatively easy to reference. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 22:59, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Derick Jacobi's The Freemasons has a lot of good material on this. Blueboar (talk) 13:11, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Unable to find The Freemasons by Derick Jacobi on Amazon or Google. Do you have an ISBN? Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:17, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: reviewing this almost two years later... I got the author wrong.... for the record, the author of "The Freemasons" is Jasper Ridley.  A good read. Blueboar (talk) 11:33, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Strange, doing same thing. Ploughing through Jacobs' book. It's like a kid showing you a maths or computer problem, and the answer is pretty much right, but the working-out is so bizarre and wrong-headed you don't know how they got there. Good material for a history of Dutch Freemasonry. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 22:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of "Historical political impact" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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