Talk:Edgar Allan Poe/Archive 1

message: I'm not really up-to-date on the current thinking about how categories should work. I'm just curious--what's the thinking behind putting Edgar Allan Poe solely in the category "Edgar Allan Poe" and having all the categories link to the category rather than the article? Is this the way to go with other major authors with a lot of related articles in WP? P.Riis 18:10, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure--I just copied them from the incorrectly titled "Category:Edgar Allen Poe".  It makes Edgar Allan Poe a sub-category of all the categories it includes.  Linking an article to a category and that category's super-categories is discouraged however, so I removed the ones from the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:22, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
OK, thanks, I get it. There was a pre-existing typo'd category. I'll just sit back and see what other people make of it. (That "Allen" typo gets in everywhere, doesn't it!) P.Riis 20:54, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edgar Allan Poe category 

message: I'm really not too crazy about the "Notable Works" section for a couple reasons--first of all, some of the choices seem kind of arbitrary, and secondly, the articles linked out from there aren't on the whole very useful. Many (most) of them are only a sentence or two, and it doesn't look like anyone's jumping to expand them into useful articles. 
So how do you deal with a situation like this? I wonder if it might be better to take the very short ones and just make them redirects, then put whatever useful information is in these tiny articles right on the Poe page. The larger ones (say ones that are more than a couple of sentences) we could leave. It just seems that people are adding their favorite Poe story, making a link, then creating a not very useful stub. 
For now, I'm just taking out the red links, so people don't feel obligated to create links for each story. P. Riis 00:32, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable works section and stubs 

message: It's just a detail, but in the "Poe's death" section, it is said "Every year since 1949, a cloaked, unknown admirer has left a birthday rose and a bottle of whiskey on Poe's grave"; while in the "Legacy" section, it is said "It has been reported that an man draped in black with a silver-tipped cane, kneels at the grave for a toast of Martel cognac and leaves the half-full bottle and three red roses". Can anybody tell which is correct ? And shouldn't this be mentionned only once? Dom 14:52, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's cognac. The account in the "Legacy" section was more accurate, so I just deleted the one in the "Poe's death" section. PRiis 15:01, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whiskey or brandy ? 

message: An anonymous editor removed the Legacy section in its entirety on 4 March 2005.  I have restored the section and renamed it for better description.  There is much interesting information within it.  If someone thinks it is inappropriate, let's discuss it here.  --Blainster 00:05, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy & Lore 

message: Is there any reason the link to The Raven points to able2know.com, and not the wikisource url for this document?
Mchlax 07:29, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Raven Link 

message: Here are various locations where suggestions have been made to improve this article. The info on Poe's life needs to be expanded, as does info on how his work was perceived in his lifetime and after his death. Thanks in advance if you're going to help out. 
*Peer review
*FAC 1
*FAC 2
*My talk
 07:13, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
===More of it===
#Information on his wife needs to be present, because that feeds into his criticism.
:: His wife was wife in name only. (Go on Google and check) According to the article, she was a "frail thing" and it was only honorable for him to marry her so that he could take care of her. His wife was thirteen when they married. Oh, and there's no proof that that they shared sexual intimacies. And Virginia (supposedly) busted a blood vessel singing. -- Peasantmimiru (Sept. 2005)
#His criticism needs mentioning.  In particular, it is imperative that there be a discussion of the "single effect" theory he had for short stories, and his peculiar understanding of the sublime.
##It would be nice if this were placed in the context of continental Romanticism.
##It would also be nice if this were contrasted with the other fiction writers of America (Hawthorne, in particular).
#His poetry needs a big bump.  While folks read "The Raven," that's not the poetry that was most praised, nor the poetry he considered his best.  In fact, there is reason to suppose that "The Raven" was even a literary joke (although this evidence need not be presented or the case argued).
#In his fiction writing, there are significant achievements for him that should be played up.  The most obvious and glaring one is that he "invented" the detective story ("Gold Bug" and "Murders in the Rue Morgue," as well as "The Purloined Letter").  Further, he developed his own particular style of short story that was distinct from others of the day.  Part of this was for commercial reasons, of course.
#Work in translation:  Arguably, Poe is most important because of the incomparable translations of his work into French.  In French, Poe is not just good; he's an immortal.  Baudelaire deserves a lot of credit for this, and, in turn, the development of late French Romanticism owes a lot to Poe (Rimbaud, e.g.).
#Copy editing and sentence smoothing/combining.
I wish I could offer to supply all of these wants, but the only thing I can really offer is the last one. Geogre 04:29, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He did?  Wow.  I never would have figured that.  It has a Childe Harold quality, I suppose, but I can see signs of parody in it and also had some sources to support me on that.  I would like the citation.  It's not necessary for the article, since we needn't say best, worst, or other about the poem.  It's enough that the poem is terribly popular now.  It's just that I have had my quarrels with Harold Bloom before, and I'd be interested to see what on earth he was doing here.  (I like arguing against "Shine on, shine on/ Harold Bloom.")  At any rate, the article has a lot of needs, and I'm not an Americanist. Geogre 15:45, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I have a copy of Poe's works in which he states in the preface to Eureka that he considered that to be his best work.  So either he changed his opinion at some point, or perhaps he considered the Raven to be his best poem.  But the second suggestion is problematic as well, because he called Eureka a "prose poem".    --Blainster 18:35, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The vast pool of advice 

message: #Information on his wife needs to be present, because that feeds into his criticism.
:: His wife was wife in name only. (Go on Google and check) According to the article, she was a "frail thing" and it was only honorable for him to marry her so that he could take care of her. His wife was thirteen when they married. Oh, and there's no proof that that they shared sexual intimacies. And Virginia (supposedly) busted a blood vessel singing. -- Peasantmimiru (Sept. 2005)
#His criticism needs mentioning.  In particular, it is imperative that there be a discussion of the "single effect" theory he had for short stories, and his peculiar understanding of the sublime.
##It would be nice if this were placed in the context of continental Romanticism.
##It would also be nice if this were contrasted with the other fiction writers of America (Hawthorne, in particular).
#His poetry needs a big bump.  While folks read "The Raven," that's not the poetry that was most praised, nor the poetry he considered his best.  In fact, there is reason to suppose that "The Raven" was even a literary joke (although this evidence need not be presented or the case argued).
#In his fiction writing, there are significant achievements for him that should be played up.  The most obvious and glaring one is that he "invented" the detective story ("Gold Bug" and "Murders in the Rue Morgue," as well as "The Purloined Letter").  Further, he developed his own particular style of short story that was distinct from others of the day.  Part of this was for commercial reasons, of course.
#Work in translation:  Arguably, Poe is most important because of the incomparable translations of his work into French.  In French, Poe is not just good; he's an immortal.  Baudelaire deserves a lot of credit for this, and, in turn, the development of late French Romanticism owes a lot to Poe (Rimbaud, e.g.).
#Copy editing and sentence smoothing/combining.
I wish I could offer to supply all of these wants, but the only thing I can really offer is the last one. Geogre 04:29, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He did?  Wow.  I never would have figured that.  It has a Childe Harold quality, I suppose, but I can see signs of parody in it and also had some sources to support me on that.  I would like the citation.  It's not necessary for the article, since we needn't say best, worst, or other about the poem.  It's enough that the poem is terribly popular now.  It's just that I have had my quarrels with Harold Bloom before, and I'd be interested to see what on earth he was doing here.  (I like arguing against "Shine on, shine on/ Harold Bloom.")  At any rate, the article has a lot of needs, and I'm not an Americanist. Geogre 15:45, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I have a copy of Poe's works in which he states in the preface to Eureka that he considered that to be his best work.  So either he changed his opinion at some point, or perhaps he considered the Raven to be his best poem.  But the second suggestion is problematic as well, because he called Eureka a "prose poem".    --Blainster 18:35, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More of it

message: Why does the article end abruptly with, "He like gay porn."? Even if it's true, can't it be worded more formally? And must it come out of nowhere without any supporting citation?
:Because some 13-year-old who still thinks 'gay' is the funniest word ever invented just discovered the page and had nothing better to do. Just revert edits like that, and don't give them too much acknowledgement; most of them just do it for the attention. --Calair 15:42, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: 1.The article, surprisingly, makes no mention at all of Poe's two siblings (a brother and sister I believe) and what his relationship with them was.
There was a sister, Lucy Ann Poe. Mitch 04:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Things that should be added 

message: Since it was already pretty much divided according to genre, I gave each genre a subsection heading. Hopefully that will help some with the formatting issues. There's still the problem that the paragraphs are too short--someone with greater knowledge of these matters than my own could expand them. They're based on Poe Encyclopedia entries, which are quite short themselves. Wje 23:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Was it an entire album based on Poe's work?  That seems fairly notable, even if most of Reed's work wasn't directly inspired by Poe Pnkrockr 16:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy and Lore Section 

message: I question the addition of Lou Reed's name to the Music subsection of the Legacy and Lore section. The Legacy and Lore section is supposed to be for artists that were directly influenced by Poe, and the influence of Poe can be seen in their works. Though Lou Reed did have one album based on Poe's works, I haven't noticed a profound Poe influence on the body of his works, like one might see with the other artists named. If I'm wrong, let me know. Wje 01:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Was it an entire album based on Poe's work?  That seems fairly notable, even if most of Reed's work wasn't directly inspired by Poe Pnkrockr 16:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lou Reed

message: Just thought those who regularly edit this page might be interested to know that it has come up in this discussion at MetaFilter, specifically beginning with this post. -- ManekiNeko | Talk 00:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The complaints in that discussion are crap. The article says Poe was "the foremost proponent of the Gothic strain in literature". That does not in my understanding imply that he created the Gothic genre--it says only that he is one of the (two) biggest and most famous writers of the Gothic genre, which I doubt anyone would dispute. Who would consider Walpole a more significant author than Poe or Mary Shelley? I don't know why people would want to take that phrase as saying he originated the gothic genre. It obviously says no such thing. The metafilter entry claims the poe article claims that Poe "invented the gothic novel".  Poe didn't even write novels, with the exception of one adventure novel, and the article is very clear on that. Wje 22:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metafilter discussion of the accuracy of this page 

message: Hi,
I couldn't find a reliable source for dating Poe's works. I found  which has dates for all short stories. Do you think this is reliable? Any other idea? Yann 12:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for dates? 

message: Second para of Edgar Allan Poe#Literary and artistic theory has a link Ideality, but that ideality article is about phrenology.  Is that the correct target, or should it be Ideal (ethics), or just unlinked?  I couldn't quite tell (though I did presume it wasn't referring to Ideality in TRIZ. :-) — Kevin Ryde 21:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Poe's definition of "Ideality" was derived from phrenology, so that would probably be the right target, even though his definition was not exactly like the phrenological definition. Wje 06:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideality link 

message: Gravity is the weakest force? Is it not gravity that forms the "degenerate" matter in white dwarfs and crushes electrons into protons thereby creating neutron stars? Is it not gravity that waprs the very fabric of space and time, even to the point of creating the inescapable black holes, thereby conquering the forces that support the nucleus? 
 
It strikes me that referring to gravity as the "weakest" force is misleading. It has the greatest reach and, ultimately, the greatest power.
 
70.116.68.198 22:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the wikipedia page on fundamental forces. Gravity is the weakest by several orders of magnitude. Wje 00:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correct. The measurement of the strength of a force is not based on its range, but on its ability to do work. Gravity is a curvature of space-time, so theoretically its reach is infinite. However, this is not a measurement of how strong the force is, but only of how far it reaches. Even though two of the fundamental forces--the strong force and the weak force--only reach for a very short distance, within the area in which they operate they are much more powerful than gravity. If gravity were stronger than the strong force or the weak force, it would have the power to rip atoms apart, which we know is not true. Wje 20:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Gravity is a curvature of space-time." That explains it. Such dogmatic statements are rare and valuable, because they completely satisfy everyone's curiosity. No more need to think or discuss. Case closed.Lestrade 15:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eureka 

message: Does anyone know how to list an article on the frequent vandalism page?  This is getting out of hand. Nareek 01:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, several of us know how to list it there.  I agree that Poe is heavily vandalized, but it also has a lot of good editors watching it to revert vandalism...including many admins who can take further steps and protect it if it really got out of hand (ala the George W. Bush level of vandalism when we take the semiprotection off). --Syrthiss 12:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's been 15 attacks in the last few days. I reverted one attack that had been up for two hours, and another that lasted for half an hour--it seems to me like an actual problem. Nareek 20:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: You are of course welcome to request protection at WP:RPP, which is a reasonably easy process.  That would, if approved, cause the article to be uneditable by non-logged in users and newer users.  Its just my feeling that it would not be approved.  I can explain more on your talk page.  As for an article more heavily vandalized than this one that also isn't semiprotected, try Cheese. --Syrthiss 16:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frequent vandalism 

message: People, "futurism" does not mean "looking into the future", or id does so only marginally. The person who placed Poe in the cat should have the common sense to look at whatever else is in there. Check out the article: Futurism (art). Dahn 08:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Futurism]] 

message: Since the Poe article is considerably longer than WP guidelines suggest, it seems like a good idea to spin off the more separable parts of the article into their own pages.  I've created an article called Edgar Allan Poe and music, based on the music section here plus a couple of other references, augmented by a little bit of Internet digging. Not only does it give us the chance to slim down the main article, separating the Poe/music material seemed to make it easier to organize it, giving it, I think, somewhat more coherence as an article than it had as a section.  Please take a look, and if it seems like it works as the beginnings of an article, let's replace the corresponding sections here with a "see also" reference. Nareek 12:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work :) --Syrthiss 13:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poe and music