Talk:Edinburgh Castle

message: The lead of this article begins with:
Edinburgh Castle is a fortress which dominates the skyline of the city of Edinburgh, Scotland, from its position atop the volcanic Castle Rock.
However the lead image that is currently there does little to support these statements and has some technical issues. Despite this it is stilll quite a nice capture but shows only a small portion of the castle in isolation. Perhaps better suited to the body of the article. I had suggested a recent image I had taken as it was hi-res, technically sound and highlighted (literally and figuratively) that the castle dominates the city skyline. It was reverted upon inclusion in the article for not what i would consider good reason. To avoid any hint of an edit war, I am submitting the two images for community consideration.
What are the community's thoughts on this change? Saffron Blaze (talk) 23:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your photo, but most readers don't click on the lead image: of some 28,000 views last month ~1,500 clicked on the image, thereby seeing it at a larger size. So we need to assume that most readers will only see the 300px thumbnail. Looking at the current lead image again, the house on the left hand side is a bit distracting so it might be worth cropping the photo, but even at 300px the part of the castle shown is still pretty clear. While the image you've shown very effectively puts the castle in context I'm not sure it's suited to be a lead picture because it's not very clear at 300px. To be honest, it's going to be like that with any image showing the castle dominating the skyline. You can't show that and have the castle's main features distinct at 300px and if it were up to me I'd choose the latter. That said, it would be a shame not to use it in the article. Nev1 (talk) 23:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good points. The current image does eliminate any desire to expand but I wonder if those stats would change if the lead images were swapped and people would then be encouraged to click through? However this may detract from the purpose of a lead image. I looked in the Commons for something stellar but unfortunately it does not yet exist, which suprises me somewhat. Saffron Blaze (talk) 01:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Alternatively, here's a plain view of the Castle in isolation (without clutter as on the present image, but no skyline in evidence. Could be shown minus caption, because 'skyline' ref. is in main text.). This view has the merit that it would be the way the Castle was normally seen before the draining of the Nor' Loch and laying of Princes Street. I realise it may not be bright enough for some. Kim Traynor 11:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Was thinking along the same lines with another suggestion. Similar perspective to the first but taken when more sunlight was on the city and with a tighter framing on the castle. Saffron Blaze (talk) 11:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

text:  Would you know from where this was taken? http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/77/91877-004-6C287169.jpg Saffron Blaze (talk) 14:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would guess this has been taken from the roof of the hotel on the south side of the Grassmarket, or possibly from a window or the roof of the Central Library. Kim Traynor 16:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

text:  I feel that the current photo is the best option at the moment. If you really want one of the castle that 'dominates the skyline of the city of Edinburgh' I would suggest one from the West End/Castle Terrace area. NotMiserable (talk) 19:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Trouble is, a view from the West End or Castle Terrace would not be typical or iconic of the Castle, as it would not include the Half Moon Battery which gives the main impression of its robustness as a fortress. Also, it would not involve any skyline, only sky behind the Castle. Kim Traynor 19:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Had another think and you are right, perhaps something from Inverleith Park then? Something similar to this http://v7.cache2.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/25281339.jpg?redirect_counter=1 but perhaps a wider angle to show more of the skyline? NotMiserable (talk) 20:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

text: That's a really interesting pic, only it's from such an unusual angle that it doesn't really say "This is recognisably Edinburgh". Inverleith and Warriston are both places where the Castle can be seen on the skyline;perhaps also the traditional view from the Calton Hill. Kim Traynor 23:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

text: I think all these images are equally good, its hard to pick a 'winner' for the lead.  I personally think the current lead image is fantastic, as it does demonstrate how the Castle dominates the much smaller and lower Grassmarket buildings. Though I can see the point about them being distracting also. The "Alternative" shown is better in this regard, but somehow doesn't have the drama of the current image. I do think its very important to have an 'overview' image in the article. The "Suggested Replacement" picture is very good in this respect, and I think it deserves to be in the first part of the article, as it shows how the Castle Rock stands above its surroundings. I would support the previous replacement of the Princes St Gdns image with this one. There are currently two images from the gardens in this section (though one has a distracting pink tree in the foreground).  The problem is that though the Princes St view is the most commonly seen, I dont think it tells you much about the castle because all you see is a jumbel of walls. A view from Calton Hill may be better for showing the Castle/New Town relationship. Another possibility for a lead image would be the view from the National Museum roof garden; I've tried to get a decent shot from there before but the light wasnt right. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 11:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

text: * It will be tough getting good light from that side of the Castle, especially this time of year, because you will have the sun in your face. A shot, potrait style, from a similar perspective as that Britanica shot linked above would be lovely mid-morning on a clear day. Saffron Blaze (talk) 13:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The view from the National Museum roof garden looks west to the castle, so would be OK in the morning. In fact its a similar angle to your Salisbury Crags shot (you can see the museum roof in the lower left of the shot). Here is an example; here is another (not saying either is brilliant). The Britannica shot is definitely from the Apex hotel in the Grassmarket, so not sure how accessible that would be. Incidentally, we don't seem to have a really good shot of the main approach to the castle, looking across the Esplanade to the Half Moon &c. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

text: That one's not bad actually, at least there are no buses parked in the foreground. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 09:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

text: * That's because Nab82ba has added several images to various "Scotland" related articles for the purposes of increasing traffic to a particular website. As an interim measure I have gone through all his images and removed the link and submited his photos for deletion as I suspect they are copyvio. I don't think there would be any issue with RV his/her contributions. Saffron Blaze (talk) 14:18, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Well spotted Saffron. It seems that commercial considerations are lurking behind the newly posted image. Some people have no shame. Kim Traynor 15:21, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

text: No need to apologise, editors are encouraged to be bold. I do think that while your photo has an interesting angle, one I don't think the others have offered, the colours are a bit washed out for me. Nev1 (talk) 21:47, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks dude! I was tempted to add it before but was being stingy with my castle love lol, I know what you mean though about the colours, not only that I felt that there was a lot of green going on too but it was nicely offset by the viewpoint itself (I hope). I also appreciate the other images too, I think the standard and the level of choice is fantastic. Thanks for your input, its much appreciated! BrotherDarksoul  (talk) 22:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: p.s. on this discussion. At a later stage someone appended the above pic labelled Alternative to an article by none other than King Alex. See this link I never knew before that the castle was a symbol of Scottish independence, given that at various time in its history it has been garrisoned by the English (hence demolished by Bruce) or, after 1707, by the British Army, and hence a symbol of the Union. Kim Traynor 14:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead image 

message: I am suprised to read here that Edward I removed the Scottish national records from the castle when negotiating a successor to Alexander III. I don't know the source being cited, so I don't know on what evidence the claim is based. I do know that Edward met the Scottish nobles at Norham on the border. I was under the impression, though I can't recall where I read it, that the archive was removed after the dethronement of Balliol and Edward's occupation of Scotland. That strikes me as inherently more likely unless he had removed the records, e.g. land charters, beforehand so that his lawyers could examine the relative wealth of the Scottish nobles. If anyone has evidence in print that disagrees with the Salter reference and supports the other contention, I would suggest that the reference be changed. Kim Traynor 23:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems you are right, I checked in McIvor, Edinburgh Castle, and though he states that the paying of homage to Edward "probably took place in the castle", he also confimrs that the records, treasure &c were taken following the siege of 1296. I'll update accordingly. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edward I's removal of the Scottish national records 

message: While not wishing to detract from what probably constitutes the greatest single feat of bravery in the first War of Independence, I would question the ready acceptance of the story from Barbour's Brus that suggests Randolph and his men scaled the northern face of the Castle Rock. That is a probably a dramatic fiction to heighten the achievement, rather than historical fact. William Francis was a soldier who was said to know a way to sneak in and out of the castle to visit his girfriend in the burgh. Common sense suggests that he probably knew a pathway along the side of the rock that circumvented whatever gatehouse arrangement existed at the time. It's hard to imagine him descending and ascending the northern rockface, unless the girl's charms were exceptional. The idea that Randolph and his men would start at ground level (tactically a very dangerous position to put themselves in), climb the northern face of the rock and still have enough energy to scale the walls and defeat the garrison, places them in the league of supermen of a kind only encountered in legend and comics. The taking of the castle was certainly a remarkable accomplishment, but I think the page should be careful how it describes this incident. The word 'reputedly' springs to mind.  Kim Traynor 23:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Barbour's Brus states that Wm Francis lived in the castle as a youth, and sneaked out via a cleft in the north face to visit a girl, which he subsequently led Moray to. This story is accepted by MacIvor, Edinburgh Castle, GWS Barrow, Robert Bruce, and Andrew McCulloch Scottish Saga: The Kingship in Eclipse (1286 - 1328), among those I was able to check.  There is such a cleft in the north face, it leads up behind the ruin of the well-house tower (you can see it on the extreme right of this aerial image. Unlike the rest of the north face, it doesn't look that challenging (though I've not tried it myself!). More importantly, no matter how fanciful Barbour's account may be, there is no firm evidence to contradict him either. I think it would be quite wrong to change the story based on the supposition that it is embroidered, particularly given its wide acceptance. I suggest the article should retain the story as related by Barbour, but could be amended to make clear its origin also. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm aware of the possible 'ladder' in the rock formation behind the well-house tower, but I can't see Francis climbing all the way down to the Nor' Loch, then climbing all the way back up the slope to reach his girl in the town (unless she lived at the bottom of a close bordering the loch!). Of course Barbour's story of Randolph's feat has been accepted down the generations without being questioned, because exaggerated history feeds the popular appetite. I wasn't suggesting changing the historical record in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. I was merely suggesting a cautionary note should be sounded when relating an heroic exploit that seems far-fetched, as does so much Scottish history. Kim Traynor 17:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thomas Randolph's exploit 

message: OK, lets sort this out:
File:EdinburghCastle.jpg|Option 1 (the status quo)
File:Edinburgh Castle from the south east.JPG|Option 2
File:Edinburgh Castle from Portsburgh.jpg|Option 3
File:Edinburgh Castle Rock.jpg|Option 4
File:Edinburgh Castle Morning.jpg|Option 5
My first choice would be Option 2 for the lead, with 1 or 3 used in the section on the rock. Any advance? Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 13:05, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Option 2 would be my first choice, with option 3 my second. Nev1 (talk) 13:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Thanks Nev, and done. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 13:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Another option. A tighter crop on the castle:Geni (talk) 00:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead image again

message: What a great article! I really enjoyed reading it. Thanks to those who wrote it. --John (talk) 05:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article quality 

message: The Esplanade of Edinburgh Castle, in Scotland, legally is part of Nova Scotia in Canada. Charles I declared it to be Nova Scotia territory so that Nova Scotian baronets might receive their lands there. The decree has never been revoked.
Source: Facts About Scotland http://www.rampantscotland.com/didyouknow.htm and http://newscotland1398.ca/hist/nshistory01.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.157.53.111 (talk) 19:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This is in fact nonsense: no part of the castle was ever decreed to be part of Nova Scotia.  What actually happened is clearly set out in the article, see the third paragraph under the heading "Nova Scotia and Civil War".  Neither of the works referred to above rate as reliable sources. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 12:37, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fully agree with preceding assertion. The fiction that a part of the Esplanade is Nova Scotian soil is an entertaining myth perpetuated by tourist guides. Kim Traynor (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esplanade is Canadian territory 

message: Strikes me it would be quite easy to take this to Good Article status. Any interest among regular editors? --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Actually I was recently thinking of another attempt at A class review - the article failed its [review last year], but most of the points raised then have been dealt with.  The article would need a thorough copyedit and review of refs, but yes I think its not far from either GA or A class. Would be happy to input into an improvement drive. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 11:57, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Now finally nominated for GA. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 13:35, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving this article 

message: I'm all for Scotch pride but, even leaving aside the fact that "Harry Potter" (o_O) confused a plural genitive with an adjective, it is dubious to the point of  that this Maiden Castle out of all the other ones derived its name from its supposedly unvanquished reputation into distant antiquity. Leaving that as the conclusion of the paragraph with an opining "simply" gives the dubious proposition  status, particularly when it seems much more likely all these Iron Age sites simply preserve some Brittonic name ending with -dun ("rock"/"fortress"). I just happened to find this 19th century source to that effect but surely someone has mentioned this more recently. In any case, we shouldn't be substituting new touristy legends for the old religious ones. — LlywelynII 21:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Castellum Puellarum 

message: Would it not be appropriate to make this very informative plan larger as it is hard to see at it's current size. If it were to be centred and doubled in size with the key to the side or below, it would be far more usable.--Nozzer71 (talk) 12:36, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plan of castle image 

message: I've amended the Garrison Commander, which previously showed Maj Gen (retd) Mike Riddell-Webster.  He is the Governor of Edinburgh Castle, not to be confused with the military position of Garrison Commander.  The current Comd is Lt Col Douglas J Mackay. // Steve 82.39.77.162 (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garrison Commander updated 

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thread_title:  External links modified I 

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thread_title:  External links modified II 

message: This article was very interesting. In particular, the history section is very detailed and documented. I enjoyed reading it and I have a few comments.
1. "Meanwhile, the royal family began to stay more frequently at the Abbey of Holyrood".
Is it really possible that a royal family would stay inside an abbey?
2. "Prior to the Lang Siege, the tower was recorded as being 59 feet (18 m) high, and the remaining portions stand up to 49 feet (15 m) from the rock."
A photo should be added for illustration purposes.
3. "Edinburgh Castle remains the most popular paid visitor attraction in Scotland, with over 1.4 million visitors in 2013."
This should be updated as necessary.
ICE77 (talk) 06:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! As to the first point, see Holyrood Palace#12th–15th centuries – "by 1329 it may already have been in use as a royal residence. ...... The early royal residence was in the abbey guesthouse, which most likely stood on the site of the present north range of the palace, west of the abbey cloister, and by the later 15th century already had dedicated royal apartments." . . .dave souza, talk 08:40, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions and comments 

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thread_title:  Featured picture scheduled for POTD 

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