Talk:Wolfeboro Pioneers

message: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wolfeboro Pioneers. Johnleemk | Talk 11:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed AFD 

message: I changed the text, because what you wrote in August was unencyclopedic garbage. You are welcome to discuss why you feel the need to editorialize on the talk page, here, not in the article. Chris 03:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then write it in an encyclopedic manner, and until you can do so, leave it as it is. Chris 03:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the protection, Bduke. (unfortunately you protected it after bad copy was reinserted) I have now found two published sources, which in the Wikipedia world have far more weight than the spurious "based on my knowledge of Mt. Diablo-Silverado Council and Ut-Selica Lodge" claim. These links are:
*http://usscouts.org/honorsociety/wolfeboro.asp and
*http://usscouts.org/clipart/scoutdoc/scouts-l/honororg/honororg.pdf
and when the article is unprotected, (unless you can do it now) I will put them into the article, where I will continue to revert word-of-mouth hearsay editors. Chris 04:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tkopechief

message: First, let me say that I thought I was protecting the last version from Chris as both of you had made 3 reverts. I had not realized that Tkopechief had slipped in a 4th revert. That was seriously against policy, WP:3RR. Please learn and never do that again.
Let us see if we can progress. The second reference given above by Chris shows that the Wolfeboro Pioneers existed in 1996. The first reference states that they still exist (the copyright date is 2002 - 2007) and that it co-exists in the Council with the Order of the Arrow. The statement in the current version "In the 1930s, the Order of the Arrow absorbed many of the small Boy Scout honor societies that had thrived during Scouting's first two decades. This happened in 1944 in Silverado Council and 1952 in Mt. Diablo Council." does not therefore appear to be correct. Also it does not seem to be supported by the reference given in the current article in the light of the new evidence that the Wolfeboro Pioneers cover one camp and the OA covers three other camps in the Council. In the light of all this, Tkopechief, could you explain here in some detail why you think the Wolfeboro Pioneers no longer exist. It seems to be false that they ceased to exist in 1952 and it seems clear that they existed up at least the last few years. If they have ceased to exist, it has to be very recent from the sources now provided. If you have direct evidence, you should be able to talk to people whose connection with the camp goes back further than yours and who should also be able to point to sources. --Bduke 06:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tkopechief and you are who??, I could contact Clint Takeshita who is a member of the National OA Committee who resides in this Section.  I will state that even my own council has a pre-OA honor society, the Order of the Silver Marmot.  I could copyright this name today but it would mean nothing, only Chief Seattle Council can control this name, not myself.Tkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Tkopechief Can you provide proof, or is this just a sockpuppet.  Yes, I would like the Order of the  Silver Marmot to exist again at Camp Parsons but can you prove it.Tkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Tkopechief Then it should be deletedTkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why do you say that. Non-internet sources are perfectly acceptable provided they are available and reliable. --Bduke 07:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Tkopechief This is meaningless, unless you know people in Pleasant Hill, CA or other towns in Mt. Diablo-Silverado CouncilTkopechief 07:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving forward

message: Tkopechief and Kintetsubuffalo, I haven't had time to read the above chat yet, but I did look at the article history. Bduke, an admin and Scouting project mediator, made a good call here protecting the page (I am also an admin and ScoutingWikiProject coordinator). You're both lucky he didn't block you for violating WP:3RR. I'm asking him as our project mediator to continue assisting in this matter. I'll be available to help too. From what I know right now (true I have not had time to read the above chat yet) its seems the bottom line is does this organization still exist or not? That needs to be determined. More later.  — Rlevse • Talk •  10:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I've read the above posts. Bduke is doing an excellent job of handling this and as a non-American, he's totally impartial. I suggest everyone continue down the path to resolution.  — Rlevse • Talk •  12:49, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I am pleased with the copy Bduke has written, and I want to thank you, as well as Rlevse and Mokgamen for your reasonable tone. I should have got an admin long before I got to 3RR, you know how it is, I had been trying all day to clean it up because, even if it doesn't exist any longer, it is a piece of early BSA history to be preserved, and it kept being reverted to the unencyclopedic version, and I got hot, to my discredit. I stayed out of the fuss for the last 48 hours, to step back and let my case speak for itself, on its own merit. This talk page is now three times the size of the article itself, and I am pleased with the direction of the article and of the research done in that time. We don't need another AfD bid, which would likely happen ceteris paribus. It still needs work, and I would favor unlocking the article to see what happens. If not, I would only suggest that the subsection name ==The Duties of the Wolfeboro Pioneers== is cumbersome and would look better as simply ==Duties==. People reading the article will already know whose duties these are, based on the topic. Again, thanks, and my vote is to keep on present course and add new info as found, without unsourced reversions. Chris 08:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I am going to unprotect the page. I would however urge all editors to not make major edits to htis page without first seeking consensus on this talk page. Let us have no more revert wars. --Bduke 08:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit war

message: Reading this makes me ashamed to be a past member of Scouting and past treasurer and historian of the Wolfeboro Pioneers. Shame on all of you. 
206.210.161.13 00:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then step up, register and sign in as a user, and address what specifically your grievances are. Venting your spleen does no one any good. Chris 05:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hoooly cow...

message: Reading through the above discussions is a bit painful, but it appears to be whether or not the Wolfeboro Pioneers  still exist, so lets look at this first:
*Absence of evidence does not mean the group does not exist; by comparison, there are any number of districts without websites and little mention on the council site.  There three councils without a website.
*One troop states they inducted two Scouts in 2005. 
*There is a Wolfeboro Pioneers group on Myspace that was last updated in 2006.  It does discuss a 2006 reunion.
*There are enough Google hits that persuade me that  Wolfeboro Pioneers existed, and has had a very recent presence.
Regardless of all that, the Wolfeboro Pioneers have existed for quite some time and have had a impact on a number of Scouts.  Even if the group had folded over the last year, none of that would change.  Interested editors need to focus on improving the article based on the information at hand.  If and when information on their status is found, then the article should be updated.  --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk -  12:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well said, Ed. I think the myspace link could be added to show existence at least to 2006. --Bduke (talk) 20:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Given that yours is an anonymous IP, and this is your only edit, you'll understand that we totally ignore your false claim. Chris (クリス) (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Of Course   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.62.232.153 (talk) 01:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do the Wolfeboro Pioneers still exist? 

message: I was feeling nostalgic tonight and wanted to look up Wolfeboro. A camp that I attended as a kid and had many great memories of. One of them was getting elected into the Wolfeboro Pioneers. I went there many times and Can't remember what year I was elected in but it was in the mid 80's. The ceremony described was how I remembered it and it was nice to be reminded of it. What is the big deal with finding proof online, I understand the importance of authenticity but you have several members in this chat verifying it. I didn't bother wasting my time reading this entire rant but can't someone pick up a phone. This is a ridiculous argument and this page should be left alone for those of us who were elected into the group and like to look back on these great memories. Leave it open to whether or not it still exists and if it does someone can add to it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrawnw (talk • contribs) 09:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! Please register as a user on Wikipedia, find some current document that we can use as a source and put this non-issue it rest. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I think most of us are quite clear that it exists. However, if you have an independent source that talks about its existence, please add it to the article or ask me to do so. It does not have to be available on the internet, but it does of course have to be available somewhere public. --Bduke (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Found another sockpuppet! We seem to keep collecting these! This one also vandalized the Tribe of Mic-O-Say‎ article. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move on! 

message: My son has attended Wolfeboro for 4 years straight, but per guidelines you must be 1st class for 2 consecutive times to be considered.  His best friend received his Pioneer last year and he will be getting his this year.  What could I have him bring home for proof?  Also, my brother-n-law - who is 55 years old, will be going back with my son because HE is a pioneer and still has his scarf, etc.  I was just searching for dates to enroll and came across this sillyness.  You can't see me, but i exist.  And will happily try and get any documentation you need to settle this.  Let me know what vaidates proof.  Lisa K  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.69.117.22 (talk) 23:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think most of us are quite clear that it exists. However, if you have an independent source that talks about its existence, please add it to the article or ask me to do so. It does not have to be available on the internet, but it does of course have to be available somewhere public. --Bduke (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Found another sockpuppet! We seem to keep collecting these! This one also vandalized the Tribe of Mic-O-Say‎ article. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: My son receives his Pioneer this year