Talk:First Battle of Bud Dajo

message: I'm proposing this merger for these reasons:
#The Moro Crater Massacre is an alternative name for the (First) Battle of Bud Dajo, or more accurately, it is a name for the final phase of the battle.
#There was a second (and much less bloody) battle fought at Bud Dajo by Black Jack Pershing during his term as the governor of Moro Province. The article over this particular battle should be called the "First Battle of Bud Dajo" in order to distinguish between the two.
I've written a paper for school over this battle, and since it got an A, I'm fairly confident it's not a complete turd. ;-) I'll be using the paper as the basis for a new article, then tweak it and add some material from the two existing articles. After that, I'm planning on doing some revamping on the Moro Rebellion article, then come back here and see if there are any comments. 
Unless somebody objects, I plan on turning Moro Crater Massacre into a redirect to here. I also plan on turning Battle of Bud Dajo into a redirect here, and then turn it into a disambig once we have an article over the Second Battle of Bud Dajo. I might change my mind and just do a disabmig from the start, with the Second Battle of Bud Dajo redlinked. Anybody know which route is standard in such situations? crazyeddie 01:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: Any idea what the copyright status is on this photo?   It would sure be nice to have for the article.
The infobox from the Battle of Bud Dajo gives the name of the Moro commander as "Datu Uti." I haven't found any confirmation of this. Anybody have a source?
Is this Hugh L. Scott the same Hugh Scott as the governor of the District of Sulu?
At any rate, I'm done with the intial copying, pasting, and tweaking. Comments? crazyeddie 04:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

message: I discovered a link (and very nice pd pic) on Hugh Scott . It appears that Scott was governor and military commander at Jolo according to Who's Who in America, 1932. BusterD 00:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Hugh Lennox Scott

message: I took a look over the Byler article. It looks like it agrees closely with the facts I've gathered from other sources, with a slight difference in perspective. I'll have to edit the Moro Rebellion article with it in mind. Some tidbits of relevance to this article:
* "Moros were angered by the killing of women and children -- a result of the indiscriminate firing by U.S. soldiers and the Moro practice of taking their entire families into the cottas when troops moved against them." page 43 (page 3 of 5 on the pdf)
Confirmation of what I said earlier, coupled with a further, less pro-American, explanation. This is referring to American attacks on cottas in general, not Bud Dajo.
*"Hundreds of displaced, fearful, and angry Moros gathered near Jolo's Bud Dajo volcano following an attack on several datus..." (same page)
This appears to be the same as Hagedorns' "the rag-tag-and-bobtail remnants of two or three revolts..." but with a differenct perspective. I like Byler's perspective better, but Hagedorn provides more information. Going to have to find some way of combining the two.
*"The datus were unable to persuade their followers[...] a development the datus blamed on U.S. polices. As they pointed out, the imposition of a new legal code and the willingness of U.S. officials to overturn the datus' judicial rulings had caused an erosion of the datus' authority." (same)
I'm not sure if this had direct causal impact, or if it's just the datus bitching about their loss of status. I get the impression that even in the best of times, although they might be impressed by the Sultan of Sulu, they wouldn't follow the orders of anybody but their own datus - and who knows what had happened to those? Eventually replacing the Moros' fuedalistic, personalistic style of leadership with a more democratic, individualistic society was a goal of the Americans, which was no doubt quite popular with the datus. However, it is a possible explanation of the events, and it isn't our job as Wikipedians to report what "really" happened (which would open up a rather large epistemological can of worms), but what other people said happened. So we need to include this in the article.
*Cites "over 600 dead".
As opposed to 800 or 1000 dead. Byler is probably just being on the safe side though, given the "over" langauge. In general, the Americans didn't keep careful records of Moro causalties, and I think the 6 Moros survivors had more pressing issues than paperwork.
*"Wood had ended the resistance, but at the cost of creating long-lasting Moro resentment."
This is the first mention of the Moro response to Bud Dajo, as opposed to Stateside anti-imperalist responses. The exception to this is one interview with the datus who were the go-betweens during the failed pre-battle negotiations. Their comments were so pro-American that you could practically see Wood's lips moving when they spoke.
I'll also have to track down Byler's sources and see what they have to add to the mix. crazyeddie 18:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Byler

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