Talk:Eusebius

message: I think we should clarify that the "Eusebians" mentioned here the Arian-leaning followers of Eusebius of Nicomedia, not the followers of the titular Eusebius of Caesarea. --Peter
:"but with the beginning of the Arian controversies he becomes prominent. Arius appealed to him as his protector, and from a letter of Eusebius to Alexander it is evident that he aided the exiled presbyter" said Wikipedia. Bbut Socrates Scholasticus the historian says: "Eusebius in particular was a zealous defender of it [Arianism]: not he of Cæsarea, but the one who had before been bishop of the church at Berytus, and was then somehow in possession of the bishopric of Nicomedia in Bithynia." Thank you peter. So I've removed the italicized bit. Wetman 20:12, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Eusebians

message: *Removed:  He is also supposed to have found in the records of Edessa the letters purporting to be written back and forth by its king Abgar and Jesus. He merely mentions the tradition: see Abgarus of Edessa. My many small tweaks are pretty minor. --Wetman 16:22, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Misinformation

message: Hi Adux. I did not know about that policy about my Britanical link. Can you point me to where it says that a link, such as to Britanica, can not be used unless it's a free link, even though its  available free as a cached on a google search? Thanks. I left this message on your talk page, also. Giovanni33 01:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Link policy

message: The limitations section seems to be mainly about the accusations of dishonesty, which is a pity.  I've augmented this, and qualified the somewhat out-of-context quotes.  I hope that this doesn't upset anyone?  (those quotes in the context that we had are very misleading, if you read the context around them).  I've added a bit on allegations about forged quotations in the Vita, but I don't have a reference.  Anyone? Roger Pearse 20:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Limitations

message: Jerome attacks Eusebius as "prince of Arians" in a letter to a friend. (Could I get a better explanation on this). In Jerome's De Viris Illustribus of Chapter 135 where Jerome gives a short autobiography, he says he is the son of Eusebius; however this article does not seem to represent this. Are we talking about two different "Eusebius" or is the meaning of the word "son" here something different (perhaps 'student' instead)? --Doug talk 14:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eusebius of Caesarea is covered in chapter 81 of DVI.  Jerome is talking about himself in ch. 135, and of course his father was not the same person!  (There are hundreds of people called Eusebius listed in the handbooks).  As for "prince of Arians", this comes from Jerome's "Second Apology Against Rufinus".  But it's a polemical phrase designed to undermine Rufinus, not representing Jerome's settled views. Roger Pearse 16:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship of Jerome to Eusebius 

message: Before I revert, I'd like to see where this compromise is--I don't see anything new on talk. From what I can see above, the version I restored was the long standing compromise that was worked out (with me, yourself (Aldux), and other editors, Wetman, Kennedy.)--and this is what was what was changed unilaterally by one editor. The compromise we reached at that time is preserved in my edits, and I incorporated/kept most of the changes that were made to it, restoring the essential parts which I see no consenses or discussion to remove. Where is this new discussion about any new compromise reached? The material I restored is information that was removed by the editor as not being accurate, but I have now attached a source, Britanica, that supports the fact, upon restoring it.  Unless there are some very good reaons, I will most certainly be restoring my edits later today. If there was really a new compromise worked out, and you are not mistaken, then we need to review this because it can not entail the removal of valid, referenced facts. The organization that was changed has some problems, as well, which is what I have fixed in my latest edit on reorganization. I now flows logically. I am happy to open up any disputes you have for discussion, again. Giovanni33 16:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been a bit rash in the revert, I must admit, even if I have some reservations that the way the pseudos are presented is not fully npov in my view, as there is more than one interpretation possible; anyways, I will not revert your edit if you go back to the previous version. Ciao,--Aldux 21:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Aldux, and no harm done. I'd be happy to have any changes you suggest to make the presentation of pseudos fully NPOV, even this means making clear that there are other interpretations. We only need to find a source that says so. Ciao.Giovanni33 22:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Aldux, what "destoryed compromise"?

message: I can't figure that out, but it looks like it will accumulate various commentaries and present various POV issues. Jacob Haller 18:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What is this "estimate" section and what is it for?

message: The intro described him as "forging unity among orthodox advocates".  But this sounds very odd; he had no interest in this, as his "Adversus Marcellum" makes plain, but in ensuring that the semi-Arian position was upheld against what he saw as the Sabellianism of people like Marcellus of Anycra.  It's worth remembering that he was a marginal figure in his own day.  He had no interest in this sort of thing.  His importance has always been as a writer. Roger Pearse 10:06, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questionable intro phrase

message: Is this Eusebius the same as the author of the Onomasticon mentioned in this link? If it is, should it be included in the article? (I'm well out of my depth here, so apologies for my ignorance). Manning (talk) 11:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He is the same Eusebius. The work was mentioned under Exegetical and miscellaneous works, but the title Onomasticon wasn't used there, so I've added it. EALacey (talk) 13:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Onomasticon

message: It seems clear to me that the Church History is worth an article of its own. Advantages: can then expand, without concerns about the balance of this article; can also be linked to easily (and robustly). Would there be any objections to a split? Charles Matthews (talk) 12:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The first step is to leave a concise version of the section here, with a Main aricle hatnote. Only cannibalizing articles creates problems. --Wetman (talk) 13:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Seems like a reasonable proposal, if more detail is to be added (although perhaps the thing to do is add more detail, then reformat?).  But won't this mean duplicating some of the pro-/anti-Eusebius stuff? Roger Pearse 08:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've split out Church History (Eusebius) now. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Splitting out the "Church History"

message: This is the complete translated text from Church History (Eusebius) on the letter from Jesus:
Chapter 13. Narrative concerning the Prince of the Edessenes.
1. The divinity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ being noised abroad among all men on account of his wonder-working power, he attracted countless numbers from foreign countries lying far away from Judea, who had the hope of being cured of their diseases and of all kinds of sufferings.
2. For instance the King Abgarus, who ruled with great glory the nations beyond the Euphrates, being afflicted with a terrible disease which it was beyond the power of human skill to cure, when he heard of the name of Jesus, and of his miracles, which were attested by all with one accord sent a message to him by a courier and begged him to heal his disease.
3. But he did not at that time comply with his request; yet he deemed him worthy of a personal letter in which he said that he would send one of his disciples to cure his disease, and at the same time promised salvation to himself and all his house.
4. Not long afterward his promise was fulfilled. For after his resurrection from the dead and his ascent into heaven, Thomas, one of the twelve apostles, under divine impulse sent Thaddeus, who was also numbered among the seventy disciples of Christ, to Edessa, as a preacher and evangelist of the teaching of Christ.
5. And all that our Saviour had promised received through him its fulfillment. You have written evidence of these things taken from the archives of Edessa, which was at that time a royal city. For in the public registers there, which contain accounts of ancient times and the acts of Abgarus, these things have been found preserved down to the present time. But there is no better way than to hear the epistles themselves which we have taken from the archives and have literally translated from the Syriac language in the following manner.
Copy of an epistle written by Abgarus the ruler to Jesus, and sent to him at Jerusalem by Ananiasthe swift courier.
6. "Abgarus, ruler of Edessa, to Jesus the excellent Saviour who has appeared in the country of Jerusalem, greeting. I have heard the reports of you and of your cures as performed by you without medicines or herbs. For it is said that you make the blind to see and the lame to walk, that you cleanse lepers and cast out impure spirits and demons, and that you heal those afflicted with lingering disease, and raise the dead.
7. And having heard all these things concerning you, I have concluded that one of two things must be true: either you are God, and having come down from heaven you do these things, or else you, who does these things, are the Son of God.
8. I have therefore written to you to ask you if you would take the trouble to come to me and heal the disease which I have. For I have heard that the Jews are murmuring against you and are plotting to injure you. But I have a very small yet noble city which is great enough for us both."
The answer of Jesus to the ruler Abgarus by the courier Ananias.
9. "Blessed are you who hast believed in me without having seen me. For it is written concerning me, that they who have seen me will not believe in me, and that they who have not seen me will believe and be saved. But in regard to what you have written me, that I should come to you, it is necessary for me to fulfill all things here for which I have been sent, and after I have fulfilled them thus to be taken up again to him that sent me. But after I have been taken up I will send to you one of my disciples, that he may heal your disease and give life to you and yours."
Further accounts
10. To these epistles there was added the following account in the Syriac language. "After the ascension of Jesus, Judas, who was also called Thomas, sent to him Thaddeus, an apostle, one of the Seventy. When he was come he lodged with Tobias, the son of Tobias. When the report of him got abroad, it was told Abgarus that an apostle of Jesus was come, as he had written him.
11. Thaddeus began then in the power of God to heal every disease and infirmity, insomuch that all wondered. And when Abgarus heard of the great and wonderful things which he did and of the cures which he performed, he began to suspect that he was the one of whom Jesus had written him, saying, 'After I have been taken up I will send to you one of my disciples who will heal you.'
12. Therefore, summoning Tobias, with whom Thaddeus lodged, he said, I have heard that a certain man of power has come and is lodging in your house. Bring him to me. And Tobias coming to Thaddeus said to him, The ruler Abgarus summoned me and told me to bring you to him that you might heal him. And Thaddeus said, I will go, for I have been sent to him with power.
13. Tobias therefore arose early on the following day, and taking Thaddeus came to Abgarus. And when he came, the nobles were present and stood about Abgarus. And immediately upon his entrance a great vision appeared to Abgarus in the countenance of the apostle Thaddeus. When Abgarus saw it he prostrated himself before Thaddeus, while all those who stood about were astonished; for they did not see the vision, which appeared to Abgarus alone.
14. He then asked Thaddeus if he were in truth a disciple of Jesus the Son of God, who had said to him, 'I will send you one of my disciples, who shall heal you and give you life.' And Thaddeus said, Because you have mightily believed in him that sent me, therefore have I been sent unto you. And still further, if you believe in him, the petitions of your heart shall be granted you as you believe.
15. And Abgarus said to him, So much have I believed in him that I wished to take an army and destroy those Jews who crucified him, had I not been deterred from it by reason of the dominion of the Romans. And Thaddeus said, Our Lord has fulfilled the will of his Father, and having fulfilled it has been taken up to his Father. And Abgarus said to him, I too have believed in him and in his Father.
16. And Thaddeus said to him, Therefore I place my hand upon you in his name. And when he had done it, immediately Abgarus was cured of the disease and of the suffering which he had.
17. And Abgarus marvelled, that as he had heard concerning Jesus, so he had received in very deed through his disciple Thaddeus, who healed him without medicines and herbs, and not only him, but also Abdus the son of Abdus, who was afflicted with the gout; for he too came to him and fell at his feet, and having received a benediction by the imposition of his hands, he was healed. The same Thaddeus cured also many other inhabitants of the city, and did wonders and marvelous works, and preached the word of God.
18. And afterward Abgarus said, You, O Thaddeus, do these things with the power of God, and we marvel. But, in addition to these things, I pray you to inform me in regard to the coming of Jesus, how he was born; and in regard to his power, by what power he performed those deeds of which I have heard.
19. And Thaddeus said, Now indeed will I keep silence, since I have been sent to proclaim the word publicly. But tomorrow assemble for me all your citizens, and I will preach in their presence and sow among them the word of God, concerning the coming of Jesus, how he was born; and concerning his mission, for what purpose he was sent by the Father; and concerning the power of his works, and the mysteries which he proclaimed in the world, and by what power he did these things; and concerning his new preaching, and his abasement and humiliation, and how he humbled himself, and died and debased his divinity and was crucified, and descended into Hades, and burst the bars which from eternity had not been broken, and raised the dead; for he descended alone, but rose with many, and thus ascended to his Father.
20. Abgarus therefore commanded the citizens to assemble early in the morning to hear the preaching of Thaddeus, and afterward he ordered gold and silver to be given him. But he refused to take it, saying, If we have forsaken that which was our own, how shall we take that which is another's? These things were done in the three hundred and fortieth year."
I have inserted them here in their proper place, translated from the Syriac literally, and I hope to good purpose.
A reference to this was deleted from the Wikipedia article.  Reopening the discussion for inclusion in this article.
Transcript1 (talk) 00:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a clarification, this is the reply from Jesus, taken from the above.  The answer of Jesus to the ruler Abgarus by the courier Ananias.:
9. "Blessed are you who hast believed in me without having seen me. For it is written concerning me, that they who have seen me will not believe in me, and that they who have not seen me will believe and be saved. But in regard to what you have written me, that I should come to you, it is necessary for me to fulfill all things here for which I have been sent, and after I have fulfilled them thus to be taken up again to him that sent me. But after I have been taken up I will send to you one of my disciples, that he may heal your disease and give life to you and yours."
 72.235.14.67 (talk) 01:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Please look at the reason user Wetman gave near the top of this Talk page under the heading "Misinformation".  He removed the following statement from the article 
"He is also supposed to have found in the records of Edessa the letters purporting to be written back and forth by its king Abgar and Jesus."
and then wrote "Misinformation"  "He merely mentions the tradition...".
The original statement in the article was accurate and there was insufficient justification for removing it.  This entry by Eusebius is well documented, and there have been many scholarly evaluations of it over centuries.  
The opinion given that Eusebius "merely mentions the tradition" is contradicted by the opening sentences of the narrative, and is not sufficient reason to delete any mention of this controversial portion of Church History. Claire Perrier (talk) 20:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes!  What was the "Misinformation"? Transcript1 (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I've already said "Once individuals have been canonized, a machinery comes into play that tends to suppress all criticism." The spurious "correspondence" is well-known and needn't be characterised as fraudulent by me. --Wetman Wetman (talk) 03:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well-known?  But still unknown to many people.  It is not my place to characterize it here as fraudulent either, but it will be documented here that he included it in his Church History. Claire Perrier (talk) 06:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Added to the article. Transcript1 (talk) 15:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Letter from Jesus

message: I've removed the following statement from the limitations section:
:Eusebius is often regarded as the first court-appointed Christian theologian in the service of the Constantine Roman Empire, seeing the Empire and the Imperial Church as closely bonded. (Dead ref: http://www.britannica.com/shakespeare/article-67584)
I've taken it out since there is no passage in Britannica that contains this statement or anything like it, and I don't believe that it is true: he wasn't appointed as anything by the court, but remained a provincial bishop all his life.  The caesaro-papist idea in the above seems anachronistic for the reign of Constantine.
There ought to be something about his view of Constantine, but this isn't it; and I'm not sure that his views amount to a limitation anyway.  Whatever we say, it should be referenced, particularly if derogatory.  Roger Pearse 20:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Court-appointed theologian" 

message: Is this Eusebius well known for?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buubuub (talk • contribs) 19:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  which 

message: My reading, from other pages around this matter, seem to indicate that the text as it stands, is incorrect, probably based on the confusingly worded run-on sentence in the Eustatius article. AFAICS, the sequence was that, Eustathius, the anti-Arian, attacked both Origen and Eusebius for "Arianism" and Eusebius layed the counter-charge of Sabellianism against Eustathius, just as Arius had charged Alexander of Antioch. Needs a reference.Helvetius (talk) 16:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accusation of Sabellianism in conflict with Eustathius of Antioch 

message: I see that the limitations section has been quietly worked over from a POV point of view.  I'm going to restore it to something in the form that it used to have; lists of people for and against, and what the general view is.  I also mistrust that reference to Burgess' book; I don't think Richard Burgess holds that view. Roger Pearse 13:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Limitations again 

message: I noticed he was listed as Top-Importance under the Wikiproject: Saints. I could not find him being listed as a saint anywhere in the article, so I was wondering if he is considered a saint in Christianity such as Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Thanks75.73.114.111 (talk) 21:22, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saint? 

message: I went to add a citation to a more recent scholarly work, and realized that the citation style here is overly complex and could use a clean up. Anyone have any major problems if I do a little wikifying and organizing to the citations here? If I hear nothing by Thursday, I'm going to convert all the citations to Harvard citation style. It looks as though the article is already using it, but not via the Wikipedia functionality. ReformedArsenal (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation Style 

message: * In this article, in the fifth paragraph under Early Life: 
"The library's biblical and theological contents were more impressive: Origen's Hexapla and Tetrapla, a copy of the original Hebrew Version of the Gospel of Matthew, ..."
* In the Wikipedia article on the of Matthew, at the end of the first paragraph under Composition: 
"it is generally accepted that Matthew was written in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew."
It seems highly likely that the latter article will have received more expert attention on this issue. I would suggest that this article should be edited accordingly. 
(I apologise if I've written this badly or disobeyed the talk page rules. I do not normally edit Wikipedia, and I have done my best.) 90.213.215.88 (talk) 19:32, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gospel of Matthew 

message: The "Sources" paragraph says...
 "Eusebius' own surviving works probably only represent a small portion of his total output."
The "Works" paragraph says...
 "Of the extensive literary activity of Eusebius, a relatively large portion has been preserved."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.119.204.117 (talk) 03:25, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictory claims 

message: Since the section "Onomasticon" was getting long, and there was obviously much more to say about this important work, it has been moved as a "copy-edit" and placed in an article of its own by the name "Onomasticon (Eusebius)". --Davidbena (talk) 01:21, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The section "Onomosticon" 

message: The saint infobox does not summarize any information found in the article and possibly contains original research. According to MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE infoboxes should contain information already present in the body of the article. 
The given references in the box don't directly support the information. The information in the "Influences" section is contradicted by the Wallace-Hadrill source used in the article. See Keeping the infobox could be misleading to casual viewers about his status as a saint. Perhaps the topic should be covered in a separate section before placing a box. If there is no objection, I will remove it for these reasons.
ThinkHat (talk) 18:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saint infobox 

message: Could his name actually be Joseph pronounced in Hebrew Yossef, and in Jewish-Greek Yussivius or Yussiffus? (and written Josephus) פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could name be a form of Yosefus?  

message: I can not find any information about Eusebius being venerated as a saint by the Syriac Orthodox Church, or any of the oriental orthodox churches.I believe this is misinformation on the editors part for not fact-,checking the Syriac calendar and the patriarchate’s position on Eusebius as a non-venerated but important church historian. 142.181.49.206 (talk) 17:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Veneration  

message: In the Article page of Eusebius there is a part that states he was "deposed" at a synod (because of his Arian views). Would not it be more accurate to state that he was (also) excommunicated from the Catholic Church by Pope Gregory XIII? Danjf (talk) 15:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eusebius "Deposed"