Talk:Christine Maggiore

message: The statement "Maggiore instead followed a naturopathic program and had a third Pap test performed by another doctor under an assumed name, which she wrote was normal" uses the words "she wrote" to indicate skepticism. Given that much of the article is based on Christine's statements (even many of the articles written about her are based on interviews with her and thus also based on her statements). I believe that these words should  be deleted unless someone can provide a source giving evidence that they are not true (i.e. that her pap smear was not normal). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DavidRCrowe (talk • contribs) 17:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer to include the attribution ("she wrote"). I don't view it as pejorative per se, but I do think that since Maggiore has an unorthodox approach to medical issues, it's best to indicate on medical matters when we are reflecting what she has written, rather than what is objectively corroborated. For example, regarding her test for HPV, Maggiore wrote that she had never had any sexually transmitted disease, when in fact she has HIV. Of course, HIV is transmitted in a number of ways (not just sexually), but nonetheless her statement reflects her minoritarian view of HIV as harmless, and thus should not be presented unattributed as fact. Similarly, claiming that cervical dysplasia "qualified her for an AIDS diagnosis" is incorrect - only invasive cervical cancer would be an AIDS-defining illness, and that diagnosis is not made by Pap smear alone. Maggiore wrote that "cervical dysplasia and cervical cancer" (emphasis mine) are AIDS-defining illnesses, when in fact only invasive cervical cancer is listed as such - an error, although clearly useful as a rhetorical device. Again, these are reasons why her writings on medical matters should probably be clearly attributed as such. That said, I'll wait to hear from other editors before making a change here. MastCell Talk 18:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "She wrote" is in no way pejorative, and improves the article's accuracy. It's appropriate to source a statement which reports the result of a test performed by an unknown doctor under a pseudonym.  - Nunh-huh 18:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: "Similarly, claiming that cervical dysplasia 'qualified her for an AIDS diagnosis' is incorrect - only invasive cervical cancer would be an AIDS-defining illness, and that diagnosis is not made by Pap smear alone." Indeed -- an HIV test is needed, since the presence of HIV legally defines AIDS in the presence of a host of various illnesses, all of which can sicken or kill without HIV. Eye.earth (talk) 04:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pejorative implications... 

message: The article is unclear. It says she had a positive test, then a bunch of indeterminate tests, and finally says that her husband and son have been tested and are negative. Has she disclosed a subsequent confirming positive test? Whig 05:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead sentence describes her as "HIV-positive". MastCell Talk 19:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it does describe her that way. But then it goes on to say, "However, following some anomalous HIV test results (negative, positive and indeterminate) and subsequently an interaction with prominent AIDS dissident Peter Duesberg in 1994, she began to question whether HIV did in fact cause AIDS. Maggiore came to believe that her positive test may have been due to flu shots, pregnancy, or a common viral infection.[2]" Whig 22:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The report of "anomalous" test results is, I believe, based on Maggiore's own writing. As her daughter passed away from perinatally acquired HIV/AIDS, most people outside the "dissident" camp would conclude that the positive test was accurate. MastCell Talk 23:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maggiore denies that her daughter had HIV+/AIDS, as well. Does she now claim to have or not have HIV positivity? Whig 23:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So far as I know from the sources here, Maggiore has always felt that HIV is harmless and the HIV test unreliable. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to get at, or what part of it is specifically relevant to the article, which covers her history and beliefs in some depth. MastCell Talk 23:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead sentence states a fact which Maggiore contests. If she is presumed HIV positive on the basis of the pathology of her daughter, then that's what the article should state. Whig 23:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: No quantity of reliable sources can cause a fact to be true or false. Whig 00:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

text: We could write, "According to [reliable sources], Christine Maggiore is HIV+." Whig 00:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The bar for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability via reliable sources. This item is verifiable via reliable sources. We don't preface every verifiable item with "According to ..." MastCell Talk 16:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not factually supported other than by the pathology of her daughter. It is not necessary to use the phrasing, but a citation should be placed so that readers know what source they are relying upon. Whig 18:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it's factually supported - it's been reported by numerous reliable sources with fact-checking facilities, and the positive test has been described by Maggiore himself. It's utterly uncontroversial and well-documented, and your focus on this point is baffling. But if you want to stick an extra footnote in there, be my guest. MastCell Talk 23:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have added a ref regarding her primary diagnosis. Her child's death of AIDS is a secondary confirmation of the accuracy of the first diagnosis. -- Fyslee / talk 00:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Christine Maggiore have HIV+/AIDS? 

message: As Wikipedia editors we have an obligation to edit according to policies, inclusion criteria, balance, etc.. That's all fine and good, but it is not enough. We have other obligations not imposed by Wikipedia policies, but by moral obligations and common decency.
We need to be careful when dealing with this and other similar subjects to protect the public and patients. Reckless editing that only looks at what is required or allowed by Wikipedia can mean articles include statements or include omissions that put readers at risk.
We can see from the history of Christine Maggiore how her actions and the actions of other AIDS dissidents have caused actual deaths and no doubt will continue to cause many more by the propagation of their dangerous nonsense. If we edit in such a manner that readers are prevented from understanding the seriousness of this error, they too will be put in danger by OUR editing, and WE will become culpable for their dangerous decisions. AIDS denialism is causing people to refuse treatment and to act recklessly, thus endangering themselves and others.
If there is any doubt, we must err on the side of reason and safety, and this can be done while editing according to policies here. Just because something is allowed by Wikipedia policies does not mean it is necessary or wise to do it. We must make choices, and we should choose carefully when deciding what to include or not to include. I think that the excuse "I was just following Wikipedia policies" will ring pretty hollow when we are confronted with the knowledge that our editing has caused deaths. Careful editing can help prevent them.
Fellow editors, please keep this in mind when editing. Thanks. -- Fyslee / talk 17:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question of whether or not she is HIV positive is being discussed in another section, not here. -- Fyslee / talk 00:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. All that was needed here was a reference, and now two have been added, which is much better. Thank you. Whig 01:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Sure. And let's remember that long after scientists showed that the Earth was round and revolved around the sun, small groups of vocal but ignorant individuals continued to deny those evident facts. MastCell Talk 23:42, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The moral imperative in editing 

message: It is not appropriate to use this as part of a political wrestling match, except insofar as that controversy is properly contextualized. The vast majority of scientists accept that HIV causes AIDS, but this is independent of whether or not Christine Maggiore is HIV positive. Whig 23:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question of whether or not she is HIV positive is being discussed in another section, not here. -- Fyslee / talk 00:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. All that was needed here was a reference, and now two have been added, which is much better. Thank you. Whig 01:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Sure. And let's remember that long after scientists showed that the Earth was round and revolved around the sun, small groups of vocal but ignorant individuals continued to deny those evident facts. MastCell Talk 23:42, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is a biographical article 

message: "her death may have been preventable with proper medical care"
this comment is not scientifically accurate  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.220.101.140 (talk) 05:20, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a perfectly reasonable way to put it. Had Maggiore taken HAART and gotten competent medical care including prophylaxis, she would be alive, not dead. When you postpone a death, we say you've prevented it, even though it's ridiculously obvious the person will still eventually die. - Nunh-huh 14:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. - Trezatium (talk) 20:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, he is right. No treatment exists that would have saved her, she had terminal aids. It could perhaps have postponed it a little. It would be better to say "her early death...". IMHO. T.R. 87.59.77.16 (talk) 17:04, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Really?  AIDS is a terminal disease, but it can be delayed significantly with early treatment.  In some cases, AIDS can be managed chronically with a long-term positive prognosis.  Maggiore's denialist attitude took many years off her life, and that's sad.  OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 17:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what you mean by "terminal AIDS". Even if someone is in the very advanced stages of disease (e.g. extremely low CD4 count or severe opportunistic infections), antiretroviral treatment may still bring them back to health (though earlier treatment is more likely to work). Antimicrobials can both prevent and treat PCP and other HIV-related infections. Trezatium (talk) 19:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

text: You seem to be confusing "stating facts" with "bias". - Nunh-huh 22:58, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's a good point. Our article on Earth is biased toward the idea that it is round(ish). Our articles on space exploration are biased toward the idea that humans have landed on the moon. And our articles on AIDS are biased toward the idea that it's caused by HIV. This is by design, although it's always nice to hear confirmation that we're doing a good job. MastCell Talk 05:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  has medical science cured death? 

message: What's the reason for removing the link to Christine Maggiore's memorial website from her wikipedia entry? I can't understand that decision. The only reason I can think of is bias. Just giving a link to a list of rules is not helping unless you specifically point out which rule you think it conflicts. Otherwise you can claim anything. I don't see any of the rules preventing a link to her website from being added to her wikipedia entry. So..? MastCell, Keepcalmandcarryon? Sadunkal (talk) 05:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The reasons are laid out in the links provided previously. As for "you can claim anything", anyone could also create a "memorial website" to raise money or promote a cause, then place the link on Wikipedia. That's not encyclopaedic, it's not notable and it's certainly not "her" website, since she is deceased. It would be a different matter if the New York Times did a piece on Maggiore and gave substantial coverage to this website, thus establishing its notability and authenticity. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 14:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your arguments are empty. It is clearly not about promoting a cause or raising money. That memorial gives a great opportunity to people for getting to know this woman through testimonies and photos of her. That's much more encyclopaedic than this pathetically biased wikipedia entry can ever hope to be. I sincerely hope that you'll one day be able to stop worshipping artifical authorities like the New York Times. Sadunkal (talk) 14:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I am dissapointed in this wiki article, it is political and dogmatic and poorly referenced, nto to mention extremely biased and partial in it's rpesentation of the (selective) facts.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.202.61 (talk) 02:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Actually, Alive & Well AIDS Alternatives probably falls afoul of WP:ELNO #2: "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research." I'm willing to accept it under the caveat to #2: "...to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints which such sites are presenting", as long as we make clear that it is an AIDS-denialist site to be honest with the reader and avoid misleading him/her. I am opposed to listing the memorial site as it is outside the typical purview of an encyclopedic biography; Wikipedia is not a memorial. MastCell Talk 03:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

text: By policy, content in the Wikipedia must be supported by verifiable third-party reliable sources, and maintain a neutral point of view. Provide information that conforms to these standards and your additions can stay. Being a new editor, you may also wish to reference the Wikipedia policies regarding fringe theories and scientific consensus. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 19:44, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memorial 

message: It would be nice to have an image in this article.  I think a photo of her grave would be a good choice, if anyone's in Van Nuys.  75.61.96.12 (talk) 23:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What a macabre suggestion for a field trip. MastCell Talk 07:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image request 

message: Please note that the generally accepted process is "bold change, revert, discuss", not "bold change, revert, revert, discuss". - Nunh-huh 23:14, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Edit wars" 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Christine Maggiore. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081002035909/http://www.kaisernetwork.org/health_cast/uploaded_files/081306_ias_sat_journalism.pdf to http://www.kaisernetwork.org/health_cast/uploaded_files/081306_ias_sat_journalism.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:23, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Christine Maggiore. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928112905/http://www.aidstruth.org/ejs-coroner-report.pdf to http://www.aidstruth.org/ejs-coroner-report.pdf
*Added  tag to http://www.lacitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/a_daughter_s_death_br_a_mother_s_survival/3887/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:12, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified