Talk:Martin Luther/Archive 3

message: This is not a duplicate category. And it has not already been debated. The only related debate has been on the failed POV claim of another antisemtism category.  A key difference is that this category is not a list of Anti-Semitic people.  It is a list of people whose works have been influential in the history of Antisemitism even if that was not their intention.  It allows the WP user to quickly identify and link to the history of the ideas and people related to Antisemitism. For example, Martin Luther is one of the most widely cited theologians among Nazis to justify their anti-Semitism.  Luther was even cited as a defense by Nazis at the Nuremberg trials.  Therefore, Luther is important in the history of Antisemitism.  This category allows the WP user to track the relationships among the history of ideas and people related to anti-Semitism.  Those that claim this is a duplicate category are merely making a straw man arguement to push their own POV.Doright 19:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Category Antisemitism (People)

message: Does anyone have documentation for this section? I've not heard much of it before and doubt it to be true. --CTSWyneken 18:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of objection, I will delete it. --CTSWyneken 20:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luther's Economic Views 

message: I couldn't let this pass without comment. Luther did not insert the word "sola" into the text of Scripture. That was a marginal note that he made in his own notes. He was confessing his faith in the Scriptural doctrine that a human being is saved by God's gift of grace without works. I have seen those with the alternative view deliberately add things into the bible in order to support their view. This is my POV, but it is NPOV to remove the last edit. drboisclair 13:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning the anonymous addition of Luther's inserting anything into Paul's Letters 

message: I have edited this paragraph as needed, but I feel that in order to retain it in the article there needs to be some support from primary sources. I wouldn't be opposed to its deletion. drboisclair 13:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Any objections to removing the section? --CTSWyneken 17:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martin Luther's Economic Views 

message: I have done some work on this paragraph, which needed some work. I wonder if this paragraph is needed here. Luther did not advocate any new action against witches. He shared the common superstitions of his time. His opposition to witches was connected to his view that witchcraft was satanic. Luther did not have the more detailed information that we have in the 20th Century. drboisclair 02:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, Luther never had an encounter with people accused of witchcraft. In this case, it is simply Luther repeating his opinion of the meaning of a scripture verse. Not that it is a sterling moment in his career, but just a continuation of previous policies. I also do not know of it referenced in any biography of Luther. Does anyone know of such a passage? --CTSWyneken 14:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually this came up last year if you remember.  The discussion was here  Sumergocognito 03:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: "The persecution of witches and warlocks took place in Protestant as well as in Roman Catholic countries in Middle Europe during and after the Reformation. Not only Luther but John Calvin supported this persecution as well. They felt it to be in accordance with Exodus 22:18."
Sumergocognito 00:56, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The topic came up, but only in reference to whether or not Luther commented on witches at all. YOu have found a statement by him. But it doesn't get to the point: I have yet to see one Luther scholar who has thought the matter significant enough to mention, much less an encyclopedia article.  I deal with Luther's work almost daily in my job and until the WA reference was mentioned I was unaware that he commented at all. To me, that still argues against inclusion in a short essay like ours. BTW, can you cite the source of the above quote? --CTSWyneken 02:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The lines I quoted are from the article itself.  The are a prolouge to the actual Luther quotes but I think they create a misleading context and don't really have anything to do with Luther's opinion of witchcraft, that's why I think we should delete them from the article. Sumergocognito 05:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luther and witches 

message: This paragraph needed work as well. What is problematic is that F.L. Cross in his ODCC says that Luther's doctrine could be called "Consubstantiation." This is surprizing in a work that is considered an authority in Historical Theology. drboisclair 14:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You've done nice work here, David, keep it up! You could always do the two opinion kind of text: "some non-Lutherans theologians say..." (reference) Lutheran theologians point out... (reference) --CTSWyneken 14:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luther and the Lord's Supper 

message: Because of the new "main article" Luther Bible, this paragraph here can be abridged to a greater degree. As it stands now it is simply a copy of what is in the Luther Bible article. All that needs to be said, in my humble opinion (IMHO), is the dates for the translations (1522 and 1534) along with the Brecht quotation that translation of the Bible was a lifelong discipline of Luther's. The standardizing of modern German by Luther's German Bible could also be mentioned. I will also be adding to the bibliography the book Luther's German Bible, which can aid further reference if it is accessible. As we know it is OOP after having been printed in the Concordia Historical Series. drboisclair 18:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luther Bible 

message: The following emendations were made to this article within past days:
:Martin Luther (November 10, 1483–February 18, 1546) was a German theologian, an Augustinian monk, and an ecclesiastical reformer whose teachings inspired the Protestant Reformation and deeply influenced the doctrines and culture of the Lutheran and wider Protestant traditions. Luther's call to the Church for ecclesial, sacramental, and theological reform, particularly around questions of the source and means of Christian salvation, led to the formation of new traditions within Christianity and to the Counter-Reformation, the Catholic reaction to these movements. His contributions to Western civilization went beyond the life of the Christian church. His translations of the Bible helped to develop a standard version of the German language and added several principles to the art of translation. His hymns inspired a renewed empahsis on congregational singing in Christianity. His marriage on June 13, 1525, to Katharina von Bora helped give validity to the burgeoning practice of clerical marriage which is now common within many Christian traditions. 
:Soon terms like penance and righteousness took on new meaning for Luther, and he became convinced that the Church had lost sight of several of the central truths of Christianity taught in Scripture—the most important of them being the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Luther began to teach that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received through faith. 
The reason for the change on the history page was that the initial paragraph was historically overstated. The initial paragraph is not overstated. The emendation implies that Luther had a programme of reform, and that he set out to accomplish an agenda. This is inaccurate historically. Luther's intention was to deal with what he saw as error through comparing church teaching and practice with the Bible. This idea was already conveyed by the introduction. As to congregational singing: through the Middle Ages that was largely done by a "choir": the congregation merely stood by and watched. 
As to the emendations of the Theology of Grace paragraph: Luther emphasized by grace alone, through faith alone. The paragraph should have been left as is. drboisclair 22:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emendations made to initial and Theology of grace paragraph 

message: In order perhaps to satisfy someone's concern about POV here we could emend the initial paragraph to read:
::Luther's call to the Church to return to what he believed to be the teachings of the Bible led to the formation of new traditions within Christianity and to the Counter-Reformation, the Catholic reaction to these movements.
drboisclair 23:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually Luther did call for a return to the teachings of the Bible. We do not need the additional phrase, though I do not object to it. --CTSWyneken 12:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed emendation to initial paragraph 

message: This paragraph was cut from the article for work here:
:It is worth noting, anecdotally, that Luther was subject to a very strict and sometimes harsh upbringing by his father, and the Augustinian monestary he entered was as well very strict and conservative.  It is this environment which may have contributed to Luther's rumination and obsessive worrying.
Brecht (Luther, vol. 1, p. 6-7): "Little is known about the relationship of the young Luther with his father and even less about that with his mother. Yet repeated attempts have been made, principally from the side of the psychological disciplines, to explain Luther's personality and its development on the basis of these relationships. At that time, the rearing of children in home and school was strict. Parents expected strict obedience from their children. ... [Brecht then mentions an instance of his father punishing Luther and another instance of his mother punishing him] Besides these two references, there is nothing known about Luther's strict upbringing. This is hardly enough evidence to make a diagnosis of childhood emotional damage. Yet Luther has repeatedly been interpreted in this fashion, and these attempts at explaining him have also been favorable received. ... But where sufficient data is lacking, not only the historian but also the psychologist must recognize his limitations. It is improper to draw too far-reaching conclusions on this basis. Interestingly, there is never a mention of a failure to live up to anything expected by his parents or, correspondingly, of any exceptional demands placed upon the child." 
It is my view that this paragraph should not be added to the article. drboisclair 16:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luther's strict upbringing 

message: I'm rather new here so I don't know the procedure for this.  Anyhow, one of you guys with more authority might want to take a look at/block user 63.227.172.108 (spam statements, also his first edit was a deliberate mispelling). John Sheu 19:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd appreciate it if you could do that then.  I'll watch and learn.  66.68.65.182 06:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Young Brother Martin Luther fully dedicated himself to monastic life, the effort to do good works to please God and to serve others through prayer for their souls. He devoted himself to fasts, flagellations, long hours in prayer and pilgrimage and constant confession. The more he tried to do for God, it seemed, the more aware he became of his sinfulness.--CTSWyneken 14:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current

message: The demanding discipline of earning academic degrees and preparing lectures drove Martin Luther to study the Scriptures in depth. Influenced by Humanism's call ad fontes ("to the sources"), he immersed himself in the study of the Bible and the early Church. Soon terms like penance and righteousness took on new meaning for Luther, and he became convinced that the Church had lost sight of several of the central truths of Christianity taught in Scripture—the most important of them being the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Luther began to teach that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith.
Later, Luther defined and reintroduced the principle of the proper distinction between Law and Gospel that undergirded his theology of grace. Overall, Luther believed that this principle of interpretation was an essential starting point in the study of the Scriptures. Luther saw failure to distinguish Law and Gospel properly as the cause of the obstruction of the Gospel of Jesus in the Church of his day, which, in turn, gave rise to many fundamental theological errors. --CTSWyneken 14:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current

message: ===Current===
In addition to his duties as a professor, Martin Luther served as a preacher and confessor at the Castle Church, a "foundation" of Frederick the Wise, Elector of Saxony. This church was named "All Saints" because it was the repository of his collection of holy relics. This parish served both the Augustinian monastery and the university. It was in the performance of these duties that the young priest was confronted with the effects of obtaining indulgences on the lives of everyday people.--CTSWyneken 14:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Much of this lay in the future. Luther was an academic, wrote exclusively in Latin, and confined his cogitations largely to a community of scholars. But a turning point was at hand" may mislead in giving the impression that Luther had a large body of written material in 1517 that he was circulating in the academic community he lived and worked in. Luther was still evolving as a theologian at this time. He did not have it all down pat and written down in Latin in 1517. He developed in his theology through the indulgence controversy. It is true that Luther did not intend for his 95 theses to be widely published since they were written in Latin. This might be brought out later in the paragraph on the indulgence controversy. "Cogitations" should be emended to "ideas" for simplicity's sake. drboisclair 13:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The indulgence controversy

message: In addition to his duties as a professor, Martin Luther served as a preacher and confessor at the Castle Church, a "foundation" of Frederick the Wise, Elector of Saxony. This church was named "All Saints" because it was the repository of his collection of holy relics. This parish served both the Augustinian monastery and the university. It was in the performance of these duties that the young priest was confronted with the effects of obtaining indulgences on the lives of everyday people.--CTSWyneken 14:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current

message: Much of this lay in the future. Luther was an academic, wrote exclusively in Latin, and confined his cogitations largely to a community of scholars. But a turning point was at hand. In addition to his duties as a professor, Martin Luther served as a preacher and confessor at the Castle Church, a "foundation" of Frederick the Wise, Elector of Saxony. This church was named "All Saints" because it was the repository of his collection of holy relics. This parish served both the Augustinian monastery and the university. It was in the performance of these duties that the young priest first came across effects of obtaining indulgences on the lives of everyday people. --CTSWyneken 14:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Much of this lay in the future. Luther was an academic, wrote exclusively in Latin, and confined his cogitations largely to a community of scholars. But a turning point was at hand" may mislead in giving the impression that Luther had a large body of written material in 1517 that he was circulating in the academic community he lived and worked in. Luther was still evolving as a theologian at this time. He did not have it all down pat and written down in Latin in 1517. He developed in his theology through the indulgence controversy. It is true that Luther did not intend for his 95 theses to be widely published since they were written in Latin. This might be brought out later in the paragraph on the indulgence controversy. "Cogitations" should be emended to "ideas" for simplicity's sake. drboisclair 13:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Worthington's Proposal

message: I believe this article is way too narrow to stand on it's own. We should create a summary paragraph on On The Bondage of the Will here, hitting the highlights of this article and documenting it, along with a general description of the work. --CTSWyneken 21:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The article is problematic in that it refers to the Holy Spirit as Holy Ghost. The title also makes no sense: is Luther the rhetorician or is God the Holy Spirit the rhetorician? Along with the summarizing paragraph we could have a special article on The Bondage of the Will. I notice that there already is an article on On the Bondage of the Will. Perhaps the material could be merged with that article and a summary paragraph put into the main article.drboisclair 21:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luther’s View of The Holy Ghost (God) as a Rhetorician in Bondage of the Will 

message: A helpful editor removed "Bondage" and "hard on" from the article using the popup software. These were replaced with multiple "#"s. I have dealt with the use of "hard on" in this article, but I'm afraid that "Bondage" remains. I would ask editors to allow some latitude with this term as it is unfortunately the traditional English rendering of Luther's "De servo arbitrio". "Bound choice" is better, but our hands are tied by Cole's 19th Century translation of this treatise. Just because the word "Bondage" has taken on what is perceived to be unsavory connotations is no reason to banish it from common use. drboisclair 17:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A matter of concern re: editing with "popups"