Talk:Cor anglais

message: I think it would be helpful to list the more common abbreviations for the instrument found in orchestral scores, for both readers and writers of scores. TheScotch 08:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: abbreviation

message: I'm a bit dubious that the main reason for the 'nasal' sound etc is attributed to the shape of the bell.  In fact if you played the instrument without the bell on it would sound remarkably similar.  I think it's just a combination of harmonics/bore type/reeds, much more than the bell itself, which has surprisingly little effect.  Or at least I think so.  I don't want to edit as I'm not positive- can anyone verify either way?
I agree with you, most double-reeds, with the exception of perhaps the Oboe produce an almost 'nasal' sound. --Arithmia 02:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I play this instrument and it's my impression that the bell primarily affects the timbre of the lower notes (i.e. with more keys depressed), and amplifies the sound at the same time. Also, the sound of the upper notes is not quite the same, nor is the intonation the same, with the bell off.  Badagnani 19:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: pear shaped bell

message: Hm, now I've written this, I'm not so sure those pieces by Bach and Purcell really are using the cor anglais - I think they might be the oboe d'amore (certainly Bach at least wrote a lot for the d'amore). I'll check up on it. --Camembert
:Nearly a year later, and I still haven't. Sorry, I forgot. I'll do it, honest. Unless somebody else does first. --Camembert
I've taken it out - I looked around, and it seems that Purcell asked for a "tenor oboe", which would've been similar to the cor anglais, but apparently not exactly the same. I've not checked up on Bach, but I think it's a similar situation - the cor anglais stands in today, but isn't necessarily what was originally written for. I've not looked into this very closely though, so if it was right all along (or at least close enough to right to be worth putting in the article with a proviso), then it should go back in, of course. --Camembert
===Editing===
I have done some editing of the section on "Music for the English horn" section.
I have added a few pieces and made some clarifications on pieces which were already listed. The mention of "The Rite of Spring" contained an errant reference to an overture. There is no section of this piece labeled as such. New entries for pieces by Respighi, Ravel, John Williams, etc. have been added. Please do not remove them. EnglishHornDude (talk) 01:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: music for c/a

message: I have done some editing of the section on "Music for the English horn" section.
I have added a few pieces and made some clarifications on pieces which were already listed. The mention of "The Rite of Spring" contained an errant reference to an overture. There is no section of this piece labeled as such. New entries for pieces by Respighi, Ravel, John Williams, etc. have been added. Please do not remove them. EnglishHornDude (talk) 01:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing

message: I'M DOING THIS FOR HOMEWORK AND I CANT FIND THE WRIGHT ANSWER I'M LOOKING FOR...
I CAN'T FIND ANY INFOMATION ON WHERE YOU COULD FIND A COR ANGLAIS
BY JARRYD
:Try a music store, or a seller specializing in oboes.  Badagnani 06:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quit shouting, and spell right... and is this really a homework assignment? --Clorox (talk) 04:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  COR ANGLAIS 

message: I have removed the brief sentence on the pricing of a new cor anglais. This is not suitable for an Encyclopaedic entry, unless there is something notable about this. For instance, the excellent article on Timpani makes no mention of cost. Additionally, it is most likely that prices vary greatly around the world, and this would be difficult to reflect with any reasonable accuracy. Dancarney 13:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pricing 

message: Italics are to be used for foreign words, as well as titles, but not for English-language terms. Please remove the italics on the term "English horn," "bent horn," and "angelic horn," and replace with quotation marks. Badagnani (talk) 08:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italics 

message: The paragraph on reeds is in need of major editing -
"Reeds used to play the cor anglais are similar to those used for an oboe, consisting of a piece of cane folded in two. Although the instrument itself is longer, a cor anglais reed is shorter than that of an oboe, and also slightly wider. Where the cane on an oboe reed is connected to a small metal tube (the staple) partially covered in cork, there is no such cork on a cor anglais reed, which fits metal against metal onto the bocal, in a manner not dissimilar to the bassoon."
The cane portion of the cor anglais (English horn) reed is actually longer than that of an oboe, the difference being that the oboe reed is tied on (the phrase most used by oboists) to a longer metal staple (with cork), whereas the EH reed is tied on to a short metal tube that fit directly to the bocal. In the oboe, the length and conicity of the staple (among other things) are important factors in how the instrument plays; in the EH, the bocal's length and conicity are predominant, because the short metal tube on to which the reed is tied has almost no influence.
I feel the comparison with the bassoon is invalid, because the construction of the bassoon reed is entirely different. In this article, it would be important to stress the similarities between oboe and EH reeds, since the cane portion of both is made (scraped) in almost exactly the same way.
The major difference NOT mentioned here is that EH reeds are usually fitted with a wire. This is done to help the response in the upper register, and to some extent to control the reed opening.
If no one has any objections, I will re-write this paragraph in a few days.Cbrodersen (talk) 12:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cor anglais reeds 

message: How do you pronounce it?  Would be nice to have that at the top of the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.219.45 (talk) 20:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  pronunciation 

message: Not to be naive to the reasons stated above for why this article is called "Cor anglais" but WHY? This is the English Wikipedia. Why use the French Name if the primary English term is "English Horn"? That just seems convoluted to me. When it says "other names", why not include the German, Itallian, and French names? Please advise or else I'm going to move the article to "English Horn". Justin Tokke (talk) 18:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you see earlier discussion (Talk:Cor anglais#Cor Anglais v. English Horn), you'll see that "cor anglais" really is the name used in England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, etc. Badagnani (talk) 19:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. We've definitely been down that road before. Rivertorch (talk) 04:47, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, but why is the title phrased like a disambiguation?  There is nothing to disambiguate, so shouldn't the title just be "Cor anglais" without the paranthetical?  --Jayron32 18:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was, then someone changed it. It occurred to me that maybe there'd be less controversy with the parenthetical. Rivertorch (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: English Horn

message: Yes, I moved this over to simply Cor anglais. Yes, both are equally valid. But as this is a title of an article, one has to be chosen over the other, and as there's no real 'neutral' choice (like Fixed-wing aircraft or Association football), I picked the one that seems to be 'first' and seems to be in slightly greater use (personally I use English Horn myself...maybe the American in me). Unless someone can cite a guideline that says aritcles can be named the old way (which implies disambiguation with more than one type of Cor anglais, obviously not the case), then this title should stay, or it should move to English Horn. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:53, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I, for one, agree with you. It is stupid to have alternative names embedded in the title of an article. This one began life as "Cor anglais", and it is usual on Wikipedia is to retain whichever standard was originally in place, unless a very strong argument can be made for changing it. Bravo, well done.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: Out of curiosity, how do you Brits pluralize cor anglais?  According to English or French grammar?  Powers T 14:36, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the same: "two cor anglais". Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? That follows neither French nor English practice.  How is the plural pronounced -- identical w/ the singular or with a /z/ and the end of "anglais"? --Atemperman (talk) 19:27, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, really! It is pronounced as the singular, though I'm not sure that a slight z sound could be called incorrect. Johnbod (talk) 22:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plural 

message: Much of this talk page seems to be devoted to matters of language. As a baritone player who plays a euphonium (yes, they are actually different instruments, or at least were before 20th century american manufacturers started building conical bore baritones), this seems so trivial. My mother plays and taught English Horn for over half a century and I have never encountered any student/professional/etc. who had any trouble using the name Cor Anglais interchangably. To a musician, poly-linguism should be nothing new. After all, dynamic and tempo variation is usually noted in Italian. Most of us have to read multiple clefs and or transpose on our instruments.
I guess my point is, that if the instrument is the instrument, cannot wikipedia find a way to provide a single comprehensive content for that instrument without offending someone through word choice ? Let us not forget that English came about in Briton as a backlash against the french of the Norman nobility after the conquest, so calling Cor Anglais "British", might offend a thousand year old Briton . . . Hopefully you see my point: The language of the name should not be taking precendence over conveying information to those who seek it. To focus so much controversy on which term is a redirect and which is the article that a redundancey must exist to preserve the peace seems a tragic mis-investment of editorial time and resources that could go into improving the vast array of needy musical instrument articles on wikipedia.--Rwberndt (talk) 14:57, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: Earlier today it suddenly appeared to me that the sentence "the instrument is neither from England nor a horn" was odd, as the cor anglais, with a conical bore and a flared end, seems to fit the definition of an acoustic horn. And people in the 18th century thought it looked like an (angelic) horn. Even if not conical, somewhat curved wind instruments reminded people of animal horns, which is good enough. So, I replaced "nor a horn" with "nor France" but Michael reversed this, referring to the definition at Horn (instrument). Lots of instruments are called horns, only some of which are like the coiled hunting horn and its derivatives that currently occupy the wikipedia page "Horn (instrument)". If in 1971 the society of French horn players decided to officially ban the adjective "French", this did not make all the other instruments suddenly "not a horn".  It would be silly to include in the alphorn, flugel horn, crumhorn, Surma-horn, soccer horn, etc. pages that the instruments have a confusing name since they don't fit the description of Horn (instrument).
I agree that we could say that it is not related to the instrument formerly known as French horn, as I suppose the English horn/French horn name resemblance will lead the novice to think they are related. As an aside, I probably should suggest to move the too broadly named "horn (instrument)" page to "horn (orchestral brass instrument)", or something shorter, but the talk page there looks as if such suggestion will meet resistance. Afasmit (talk) 09:53, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference to "horn" that you removed from the article was linked to Horn (instrument) which defines brass horns. When considering orchestral instruments, most people would first make that association, thus the phrase was in my opinion quite poignant (and the French Wikipedia makes the same point). I agree that the wider definition of "horn" ("a wind instrument consisting of a tube that is wide at the end" as you put it) does indeed include the cor anglais. I also agree with your suggestion to limit the phrase to a comparison with the brass family of horns, but spelling it out like that makes it so bland that it might as well be omitted – which leaves the part "… is not from England." That seems redundant with what follows in the article. Your replacement "…  neither from England nor France" seems a non sequitur to me as no French origin is previously indicated. The only solution seems to drop the complete sentence – which in my opinion would rob the articles of a nice catchy phrase which has quite some currency elsewhere (see here, here, [(blacklisted by Wikipedia) http://www.ehow.com/about_6597553_oboes.html here], and in Orchestration by Cecil Forsyth (1982), p. 220. Maybe we could follow Forsyth and write "… neither 'English' nor a 'horn'" using quotation marks around the words. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume the issue of not being French is because of the name. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That, I think, is a different issue (the "French horn" is not French), yes? None of the component words in either form of the instrument discussed in this article ("anglais", "cor", "English", and "horn") can possibly be construed to mean "French" (or "Italian" or "Bulgarian", "Chinese", "Latvian", etc.) Or am I missing something here?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "Cor anglais" is in French, not that it means 'French'. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly so, except for the fact that "cor anglais" is also naturalized as an English term, hence the title of this article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

text: How about "The term cor anglais is French for English horn, but the instrument is neither English nor related to the (French) horn.", or simply "... nor related to the French horn"? Still catchy (I like the recurrence of English and French), and it has the benefit of being true. Afasmit (talk) 21:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The main thing here is that the term "cor anglais" is not only French, but English (just as are the words "chef", "cuisine", and "aubergine"). It is a term naturalized from French, it is true, just as the name "trombone" is naturalized from the Italian name of an instrument invented probably in Germany, and "flugelhorn" is from the German name of an instrument developed probably in Belgium. The word "anglais", of course, means "English" in French, which is why the point is being made that the instrument is not English in origin, nor is it a horn. Nothing more needs saying, and would only serve to confuse the reader if it were said.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Jerome, you've missed the point of the discussion, which is about "nor is it a horn". Afasmit (talk) 05:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So then, why are you suggesting the word "French" would be a useful clarifying word?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That used to be the official and still is the common way to distinguish the orchestral, coiled horn from other horns. Afasmit (talk) 18:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

text: French horns.
No, I mean, before that... 
__ Just plain Bill (talk) 22:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Not a horn?

message: Hi all. I just want to point out some confusing language in the article opening:
"Because the cor anglais normally lacks the lowest B-flat of the oboe, its sounding range stretches from the E (written B natural) below middle C to the C two octaves above middle C."
For a non-oboe player such as myself I find this description unclear and complicated. For starters it is my impression that the Cor Anglais can play the same low Bb as the Oboe since it is a lower timbre instrument. I know what the sentence is trying to say which is that the Cor Anglais is not a Bb based instrument but do we really need to know that at the outset? Surely there is a better way to explain this? - Random Wiki User  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.28.149 (talk) 13:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are in fact misreading this sentence, and it could easily be improved to avoid your confusion. What this sentence is meant to say is that the cor anglais does not have the extra low B key that most oboes are provided with. This refers of course to the notated pitches, which in the case of the oboe are also the sounding pitches. Because the c.a. is a transposing instrument in F, the low B key, if present, would extend the sounding range to a low E; the lack of this key means that the lowest note is written B, sounding E.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:39, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Low B-flat

message: See Talk:Oboe d'amore
EddieTheOboist (talk) 14:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Range in terms of vocal nomenclature 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved per the discussion below; in addition, this was filed by an IP that has been blocked for socking.  Dekimasuよ! 02:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Cor anglais →  – This title uses English terms (for North American usage), but according to Google Ngram. 112.205.182.144 (talk) 02:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 21 June 2023