Talk:Turkish language/Archive 1

message: Vowel chart and discussion of vowels.
Vowel chart added. Apokrif 16:10, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Michkalas, for creating the table. I did my best to complete it, also providing examples. I also changed the entry of close central unrounded vowel (IPA: ) to close back unrounded vowel (IPA: ), which, I think, is a more correct rendering of the Turkish 'ı' sound and is also compatible with the existing vowel chart in the section. I hope there are no serious mistakes in this judgment of mine and the IPA renderings of the examples I provided. To the best of my knowledge, there are no diphthongs in Turkish, and I also added this fact into the section. Regards, Atilim Gunes Baydin 20:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vowels

message: Description of important sound changes in the history of the language. (Maybe this should go under history?)
:It would be redundant to have a special section for historical sound changes. This belongs better to History of the Turkish language.--Michkalas 10:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical sound changes

message: This section should contain a discussion of any special features of the vocabulary (or lexicon) of the language, like if it contains a large number of borrowed words or a different sets of words for different politeness levels, taboo groups, etc.
:Article on Turkish vocabulary added, though the "special feature" that it covers is mainly the kinds of new words that can be built up from old.  David Pierce 12:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vocabulary

message: The information (relating to Turkish) in the T-V distinction article on should be included and expanded here.
:This is now given briefly in Turkish grammar. David Pierce 12:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also in the present article.  David Pierce 07:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[T-V distinction]]

message: What about düşman, 'enemy'? It's known to be a word that entered Turkish from an Indo-European language (see ancient Greek dusmenes, 'enemy'; Sanskrit durmanah, Persian etc.). It's a compound from PIE *dus (=bad) and PIE *men (=mind, will), 'of ill-mind'. But I'm not sure what IE language it entered Turkish from (Persian?). Decius 06:29, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the enormous number of Persian loanwords in Turkish and the perfect correspondence (given the usual loanwords sound shifts) to Persian doshman, I would take its Persian origin for granted. I suppose Kurdish might be worth checking, but most Iranian words in Turkish are Persian. - Mustafaa 06:33, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loanword 

message: Decius, I agree that the other languages belong in Turkey, not here.  Should probably be merged into the demography section, but that might be contentious.  Currently, ethnic groups are listed in alphabetical order, which doesn't make sense when some are very large (Kurds) and some very small (Greeks). --Macrakis 16:14, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Other languages

message: Despite the expulsion of numerous Arabic words, Turkish still has a substantial number of Arabic loan words that are used in the language today. However, some words have gone through phonetic changes in Turkish in order to accommodate the vowel harmony. 
* Some Arabic loan words are:
Word in Arabic 	Word in Turkish       	English meaning               	Remarks
ve             	ve                    	and                           	
hayr           	hayır            	favour                        	
teşekkur       	teşekkür         	thank                         	
marhabā        	merhaba               	hello                         	
sīfr           	sıfır       	zero                          	
zāmān	zaman                 	time                          	
kitāb     	kitap                 	book                          	
īzn       	izin                  	permission                    	
cerrāh    	cerrah                	surgeon                       	
cedvel         	cetvel                	ruler                         	
cesāret   	cesaret               	courage                       	
imhā      	imha                  	nuke                          	
hāreket   	hareket               	motion                        	
havz           	havuz                 	swimming pool                 	
seyl           	sel                   	flood                         	
nukta          	nokta                 	period (in punctuation)       	
niyyet         	niyet                 	intention                     	
dūnya     	dünya                 	world                         	the Persian-origin word cihan was used until about the 1940's
kutb           	kutup                 	pole                          	
tesellī        	teselli               	condolence                    	
beyāz          	beyaz                 	white                         	the Turkish word ak is also used, but not as often as beyaz.
tehluke        	tehlike               	danger                        	
imdād          	imdat                 	mayday                        	
tehdid         	tehdit                	menace                        	
tacīz          	taciz                 	harass                        	
nufūs          	nüfus                 	population                    	
mezār          	mezar                 	grave                         	
cenāze         	cenaze                	funeral                       	
miza:h         	mizah                 	humor                         	
mute:ahhid     	müteahhit             	contractor                    	the new suggested Turkish word is üstenci, but this word is seldom used.
resmī          	resmi                 	formal                        	
ciddī          	ciddi                 	serious                       	
kināye         	kinaye                	sarcasm                       	
iltifāt        	iltifat               	compliment                    	
iltihāb        	iltihap               	infection                     	
fikra          	fıkra            	anectode                      	
iflās          	iflâs                 	bankruptcy                    	
ikrām          	ikram                 	offer, give                   	especially used when offering guests something to eat as courtesy
itirāf         	itiraf                	admit                         	
itibār         	itibar                	impression                    	
iftirā         	iftira                	blame                         	especially used when blaming someone else for what the person has done.
fāre           	fare                  	mouse                         	
fark           	fark                  	difference                    	
hazīne         	hazine                	treasure                      	
hāzīr          	hazır            	ready                         	
hayvān         	hayvan                	animal                        	
derece         	derece                	degree                        	
hafif          	hafif                 	light (the opposite of heavy) 	
mevsim         	mevsim                	season                        	
temyīz         	temiz                 	clean                         	the word temyiz is also used in Turkish, but in the meaning of objection to a court's decision
temsīl         	temsil                	represent                     	
dikkat         	dikkat                	caution                       	
cezā           	ceza                  	punishment                    	
cevz           	ceviz                 	walnut                        	
cumhūriyyet    	cumhuriyet            	republic                      	
fazla          	fazla                 	many, too                     	
hīle           	hile                  	cheat                         	
lezzet         	lezzet                	taste                         	
dāire          	daire                 	circle                        	
fahişe         	fahişe           	whore                         	
hevāa          	hava                  	air                           	
sāhīfe         	sayfa                 	page                          	in Arabic, sāhīfe ("pages") is the plural of sūhūf, meaning "page." In Turkish sayfa is used as singular.
iknā           	ikna                  	persuade                      	
sufre          	sofra                 	(laid) table (to eat)         	
iāde           	iade                  	return                        	
resm           	resim                 	picture, painting             	
sākin          	sakin                 	calm                          	
kirmizi        	kırmızı	red                           	the Turkish word al is also used, but rarely
lutfen         	lütfen                	please                        	
matbah         	mutfak                	kitchen                       	
tecāvuz        	tecavüz               	rape                          	
merkez         	merkez                	center                        	
merāk          	merak                 	curiousity                    	also means "being interested in"
masdar         	mastar                	infinitive form of verb       	
manzara        	manzara               	scenery                       	
mādde          	madde                 	material                      	
mācerā         	macera                	adventure                     	
hisāb          	hesap                 	calculation                   	
hikāaye        	hikâye                	story                         	
mendīl         	mendil                	kerchief                      	
meşgūl         	meşgul           	busy                          	
ders           	ders                  	lesson                        	
hakāret        	hakaret               	insult                        	
kūfr           	küfür                 	swear, curse                  	
abdāl          	aptal                 	stupid                        	
zevk           	zevk                  	pleasure                      	
zaif           	zayıf            	thin (used for persons)       	
zevāl          	zavallı          	pathetic(adj)                 	in Turkish the suffix -lı is used to derive adjectives from nouns
zarf           	zarf                  	envelope                      	
zekā      	zekâ                  	intelligence                  	
zekī      	zeki                  	smart, intelligent            	
zarār     	zarar                 	loss, damage                  	
sāniye    	saniye                	second (as in time)           	
sanāayi   	sanayi                	industry                      	
san:at         	sanat                 	art                           	
zātu'r-rie     	zatürre               	pneunomia                     	
tāc            	taç                   	crown                         	
inşāāt         	inşaat           	construction                  	
irk            	ırk              	ethnicity                     	
intihār        	intihar               	suicade                       	
redd           	ret                   	reject                        	
kabūl          	kabul                 	accept                        	
itirāz         	itiraz                	objection                     	
insān          	insan                 	human                         	
muhendis       	mühendis              	engineer                      	
sikāyet        	şikâyet          	complain                      	
işgāl          	işgal            	occupy (a country as in a war)	
itfāiyye       	itfaiye               	fire station                  	
---
Maybe I'm just uninformed, but I'd like to know what kind of Arabic this is, because i know in modern standard, "and" is not "ve", rather "wa"; "busy" "maşģūl" (ģ being the voiced velar fricative, often transliterated as "gh" as a single phoneme) not "meşgūl", and yeah. there are some more. not only in the Arabic section that i'm questioning, but also in the persian one, like for "window", i know "pancere" not "pencere" for the word in Farsi.  anyway... just wondering if anyone else noticed these potential errors... cullen 04:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic loan words

message: As it was inappropriate to refer readers to this page in the main article, I have placed the first list above on it's own page at List of replaced loan words in Turkish. I suggest that the other lists also be placed on their own pages, or on other wikis. JPD (talk) 14:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists 

message: Hi, could someone please help me out.  There is a place on the Mediteranean coast of Turkey called "Bençik", and it is also the surname of several people in that area.  I was wondering if anyone could please tell me if this is the correct spelling of the name, and how do you pronounce this name properly.  I would really appreciate it if someone could please tell me.  Thanks. 82.92.119.11 5 November 2005 12:34 (UTC)
:Don't know if it's the correct name. However, if it's pronounced as spelled, it's something like English ben-cheek or Spanish ben-chic. For place names, the stress is often on the second-last syllable, but I don't know if that's the case here. kwami 01:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The stress is on the first syllable for two-syllable place names like BUR-sa, IZ-mir; for three or more syllable place names it is not that simple: ex. is-TAN-bul, AN-ka-ra, ZON-gul-dak, KAS-TA-mo-nu, gi-RE-sun, di-YAR-ba-kir, SA-lih-li, de-NIZ-li etc. "Bençik" is pronounced ben-chick it sounds turkish but doesn't really mean anything.
*That's interesting.  Because if "Bençik" is pronounced "ben-chick", it could be related to the Hungarian name "Bencsik" (pronounced "ben-chick"), which I have been told is originally a Slovak name.  I think in Slovakia they spell it as "Bencik", but the pronunciation is probably the same as the Hungarian version.  As for the meaning, I'm not sure.  I went to a translation site and typed in "Bencsik" and translated it from Hungarian to English and the result that came back was the word "benedictine".  Does anyone know if all these names are the same?  Any comments? Kchishol1970 12:15, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Turkish Name Pronunciation 

message: User 193.140.63.162 recently deleted the expression "Estağfurullah" from the table, with the comment "Arabic expression deleted".  Of course, many common words and expressions in Turkish are Arabic, including many others in the table, e.g. merhaba, teşekkür, şey, (maybe even "rica"?) etc.  If the expression is commonly used (I really don't know one way or the other), the fact that it's of Arabic origin shouldn't exclude it from the table.  WP is not in the business of enforcing linguistic purism.... --Macrakis 21:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of "Arabic expression"

message: If <a> is back, isn't the IPA symbol supposed to be  or  rather than ? To my ear, the pronunciation sometimes sounds like one and sometimes like the other (stressed syllable, maybe?).
Mats 14:25, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vowels in IPA

message: Turkish is spoken in France too, there are many Turkish families speaking Turkish in France. It should be added to immigrant part. CrashMex 12 Jan 2006 18:06
Please find good information and add it.  I think it would be nice to have something like
:There is a large Turkish-speaking population in Germany (1.8m), and smaller groups in France (0.7m), Belgium (0.3m), .... 
Of course, I am making up the numbers and the reference.  The list should not be exhaustive, but cut off at some reasonable level. --Macrakis 18:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it specifically states that the number for Iran is Azeri. Also, although not stated, the numbers in Europe count Kurds as well as Turks. Kurds are overrepresented abroad compared to their population in Turkey, as they have higher emmigration rates than Turks. kwami 21:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish is spoken in... 

message: The vowel chart is certainly much prettier than the previous vowel table.  It has the disadvantage, though, that you can't link the individual symbols to their articles, which I think would be handy.  What do others think? --Macrakis 17:14, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vowel table vs. chart

message: There's nothing about how lexical stress works in the article. In general, it's hard to find information about this anywhere.
According to http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~inkelas/Papers/TurkishStressFinal.pdf,
a lexical unit (word or suffix) either has stress definied to a certain syllable or undefined. For a word that only contains units with undefined stress, the stress will go to the last syllable. A suffix may also make the previous syllable stressed. The above article describes what happens when a word contains more than one unit where stress is defined, more or less.
:I suggest you add this information, and a link to the source.  That's how Wikipedia improves! --Macrakis 17:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lexical stress

message: The article talks of how Turkish has used much fewer Arabic and Persian loanwords. But recently in popular culture one finds an explosion in the usage of such loanwords. Partially this is political as Özturkce (pure Turkish without loan words) is very Ataturkist, and partly this is just people rediscovering their heritage and playing around with words (because words are cool). Maybe we should add something about this phenomenon? 129.199.224.169 23:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Return of Ottomanisms 

message: Just to let everyone know, the ɯ represented in the image above is an incorrect transliteration into IPA in regard to the vowels of the Turkish language. ɯ is the unrounded counterpart of u. The ı is better represented by the IPA symbol ɨ which is a unrounded high central vowel. Either way, the ɯ is still misplaced as it articulated in the same fashion as u save for roundness, and thus should be placed in conjunction with the u. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ctreddy (talk • contribs) 05:57, 25 April 2006.
:Unrounded vowels tend to be further front than rounded vowels, so <ɯ> is a better match than <ɨ>, though neither are perfect. kwami 07:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [No Title] 

message: I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Turkish. Thanks, --Soman 15:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help with translation 

message: I'd like to note a good number of speakers live outside of Turkey at places such as Germany. The total number of speakers however must be sourced rather than a large range (being off by several million people is an unnaceptable margin of error). --Cat out 18:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I agree completely. Indeed, in Germany alone there is some estimated 2.5 million Turks - of whom the big majority probably has Turkish as their native language! The total number can however, unfortunately, not be better than estimates, as Turkey doesn't register speakers of minority languages. Bertilvidet 18:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of speakers.