Talk:Brazilian jiu-jitsu/Archive 1

message: The purposes of these recommendations are to:
#plan a layout and structure for the article to facilitate orderly and mutually agreed upon development;
#discuss maintaining a neutral point of view especial with regarding to other martial arts;
#improve the quality of the content;
#explain what Aesopian is going to be doing to this article unless someone gives him a good reason not to. ;-)
Note: Obviously, these are just recommendations.
If you disagree with anything writen here, you are in no way obligated to follow these recommendations; this is Wikipedia after all. I do ask though that if you do not want to follow these recommendations that you please leave a comment as to why. These recommendations were written with the best of intentions in the direction of following all standards and policies set by Wikipedia and community at large. Any and all comments on and changes to these recommendations are highly appreciated and encouraged.
=== Outline and Structure ===
Below is a proposed structure for the article. In this first draft, specifics and details were intentionally omitted to avoid overdrawing the scope of these initial recommendations. It is hoped that other Wikipedians will contribute to this outline themselves, adding and subtracting from it until a concensus agreement is reached on which sections are needed and which are not.
Expect this list to be modified and expanded in later versions of these recommendations, and feel free to make these changes yourself.
*Introduction
*History
*Uniform
*Grading
*Techniques
**General strategy
**List of techniques
**Training methods
**Drills
*Competition
**Rules
*Notable organizations
*Notable schools
*Notable individuals
*References
*External links
=== Achieving and maintaining NPOV ===
As with most martial arts, and maybe especially with Brazilian jiu jitsu, comparisons to other arts seem inevitable and cause the most violations of NPOV. The safest approach appears to be avoiding such comparisions, or keeping them relevant and to a minimum.
With our article however, there are several arts we cannot avoid as they have historical significance to the development of Brazilian jiu jitsu. These are judo, jiu jitsu and Luta Livre. Whatever is written about these arts should give their relationship to Brazilian jiu jitsu, any major events involving the two (i.e. major fights), how they differ on a technical level, differences between training methods, the difference of competition rules, etc. Special care needs to be taken to avoid personal statements about the superiority or inferiority of any of these arts.
Comparisons to other unrelated arts such as Tae Kwon Do are not really needed. It is the observation of the author that such comparisons usually serve no purpose other than promoting Brazilian jiu jitsu while devaluating the other art. If someone wants to know the differences between Brazilian jiu jitsu and Tae Kwon Do, they can read the article on one then on the other.
Don't take all this to mean that it is impossible to show that one art is better than another while still maintaining NPOV, but such decisions should be made by the reader after he has been presented with the facts and the arguments on all sides, not by opinionated comments of the authors.
=== Improving quality of content ===
==== Agreeing on a single spelling ====
As seems to be an issue with the word "jiu jitsu" anywhere you go, it has a half dozen different spellings. Within the article on Brazilian jiu jitsu itself, we have it written "Jiu Jitsu", "Jiu-Jitsu" and "jujitsu". Seeing as this is still up for debate in the jiu jitsu article itself, I don't know if we should make judgment on the issue yet, but I thought it would be a good point to keep in mind.
:What spelling would a Brazilian practitioner use when writing in his native language? Brasileira de jiu jitsu or something? Since this is an Brazilian art, I don't think it is important to use the correct Japanese spelling jūjutsu, that I'm advocating for articles related to traditional Japanese martial arts. Several other Wikipedians (see User:Chameleon's writings) maintain that since this is an English language encyclopedia, the most prevalent form in English should be used, but I'm not very keen on that policy myself. Especially in this case, where the supposedly "correct" English version jujitsu (or what was it?) is a historical misromanization. jni 15:18, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recommendations (First Draft)

message: ==== Agreeing on a single spelling ====
As seems to be an issue with the word "jiu jitsu" anywhere you go, it has a half dozen different spellings. Within the article on Brazilian jiu jitsu itself, we have it written "Jiu Jitsu", "Jiu-Jitsu" and "jujitsu". Seeing as this is still up for debate in the jiu jitsu article itself, I don't know if we should make judgment on the issue yet, but I thought it would be a good point to keep in mind.
:What spelling would a Brazilian practitioner use when writing in his native language? Brasileira de jiu jitsu or something? Since this is an Brazilian art, I don't think it is important to use the correct Japanese spelling jūjutsu, that I'm advocating for articles related to traditional Japanese martial arts. Several other Wikipedians (see User:Chameleon's writings) maintain that since this is an English language encyclopedia, the most prevalent form in English should be used, but I'm not very keen on that policy myself. Especially in this case, where the supposedly "correct" English version jujitsu (or what was it?) is a historical misromanization. jni 15:18, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving quality of content 

message: As seems to be an issue with the word "jiu jitsu" anywhere you go, it has a half dozen different spellings. Within the article on Brazilian jiu jitsu itself, we have it written "Jiu Jitsu", "Jiu-Jitsu" and "jujitsu". Seeing as this is still up for debate in the jiu jitsu article itself, I don't know if we should make judgment on the issue yet, but I thought it would be a good point to keep in mind.
:What spelling would a Brazilian practitioner use when writing in his native language? Brasileira de jiu jitsu or something? Since this is an Brazilian art, I don't think it is important to use the correct Japanese spelling jūjutsu, that I'm advocating for articles related to traditional Japanese martial arts. Several other Wikipedians (see User:Chameleon's writings) maintain that since this is an English language encyclopedia, the most prevalent form in English should be used, but I'm not very keen on that policy myself. Especially in this case, where the supposedly "correct" English version jujitsu (or what was it?) is a historical misromanization. jni 15:18, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agreeing on a single spelling 

message: I am trying to add a social networking site exclusively for the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA community that we've worked very hard to build and the link gets taken down? Why? I added it to the LAST external link so as not to be obtrusive as it is in it's earliest stages and doesn't have tons of users or content...yet. The domain is BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.com. I am a practitioner of BJJ and the site has and will provide a lot of value to the community. I apologize if this is not the proper place to post this comment as I am a novice to wiki based communication. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.61.162.155 (talk) 13:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community website

message: These recommendations are entirely open to change and correction. Just have at it or and leave a comment, and I'll be happy to work it out with you. So you know, I am planning on reworking the article myself to agree with the recommendations as they stand now.
Thanks for reading. Thanks even more if you contribute.
Aesopian 04:40, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blame all this on Aesopian 

message: Some important points in the history that are currenting lacking:
*Clear explainations of who Maeda was, what he studied and what he taught the Gracies. More information available at:
**http://www.bjjfighter.com/History/
*Address the issue of Maeda actually teaching a form of judo.
*Clearer explaination of the development of Brazilian jiu jitsu as an independent martial art, such as Helio frailty and inclination towards ground fighting, and its history in Brazilian Vale tudo.
*Helio's fame as a professional fighter.
*Helio's fights against Japanese judoka Kato and Masahiko Kimura. Information can be found at:
**http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm (Near end of article)
**http://www.judoinfo.com/helio.htm
*Contention with Luta Livre
*The Gracie Challenge
*The creation of sport jiu-jitsu rules and competitions.
Aesopian 19:46, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: in the techniques section, the last paragraph says: 
"The main emphasis in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is to dominate the opponent through skillful application of technique and force them to quit (submit). By using the techniques of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, a smaller practitioner, male or female, can control much larger and stronger opponents and actually force that larger opponent to submit."
I feel this information is repeated multiple times in the article, and although pertinent, does not add to the article in its current placement and should probably jsut be removed outright. Shaggorama 13:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You´re are basing your views on sport jiu-jitsu/MMA only. BJJ is much more than that. It´s also a self defense discipline which is taught in every serious BJJ school. It also have strikes and takedowns offense and defense. What you´re are telling is that Judo too is impratical or dangerous as a general purpose martial art. I think you´re missing the point here. BJJ and Judo both give you flexibility and confidence to fight standing or on the ground. Just by being able to avoid takedowns can save your day. In places where there are staircases, if you throw your opponent, well, the fight is over. And yes, you can dig your way to escape with jiu-jitsu if you are not stupid enough to lay down and try to play guard game. But there is always the wrong schools where atemi (stand-up striking), self defense and common sense :-) is not taught! Loudenvier 19:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from inside article 

message: i just added back into the article the recent deletion of the phrase , "also known as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (GJJ)" from the opening paragraph. in the early 90s when i first learned this martial art, it was always called gracie jiu-jitsu. it was not until it started gaining much popularity from the ufc and other ppv events that the more general brazilian jiu-jitsu term came into widespread use (among martial artist and fans anyway). i think it is important for an article about brazilian jiu-jitsu to mention that it is also known to many as gracie jiu-jitsu. at the very least it needs to say that this was the original name because as the article already mentions it was developed by and in the begining thaught mostly gracie family members.  uri budnik 09:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it has grown past this exclusive moniker as other sources have contributed greatly to the development of the sport and art of BJJ. The article already references the Gracies as the originators in the history section. --Malathion 20:01, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  brazilian jiu-jitsu and/or gracie jiu-jitsu 

message: The BJJ article seems to have a lot of information and background on the history and techniques involved but it does not appear to make any reference at all to the competitive element.  There are two elements to this, firstly that BJJ fighters (Royce) made such an impact on Mixed Martial Arts competitions and secondly that there are World Champions in BJJ.  I have raised this here as I am not yet familiar enough with wikipedia to know whether the sport element should be included in the martial art section and I don't want to come into any conflict with a martial arts project template. MLA 11:42, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: well, i think that knowing the subject is more important than knowing the wikipedia. give yourself a little time to get better aquainted with it: the customs, rules, the general way in which this community works and then you can come back and better contribute to this (and other) articles. i recomend you start by reading articles in the areas you are interested in and then look at the talk pages and at this history. its interesting to watch how the articles evolve over time. uri budnik 04:00, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Competition?

message: I don't know if it's wise to include a listing of schools.  Who is to say what is a relevant school and what is not?  I don't believe that Wiki was ever supposed to be as much of an advertising listing.  KingMob 16:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done! CasualFighter 21:07, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  School Issue 

message: A new category for those interested in martial arts has been created at Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_martial_arts. To add yourself, simply copy the following code to the bottom of your own user page:
:
Shawnc 11:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Martial arts category for Wikipedians

message: "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is designed for one-on-one fighting."
What exactly is this line trying to say? That other arts are designed to win agaisnt multiple opponent or something? Or that BJJ will absolutely not work in anything more than 1 on 1? Shardakar 17:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable paragraph in the techniques section. 

message: "The success of BJJ versus the other martial arts has been attributed primarily to the rules of competitions falling in a grapplers favor(example: no hitting the spine)"
In the early UFC's, hitting the spine was indeed allowed. In UFC2, you couldn't even get disqualified by biting, you would only get a fine. I'll change this to "example: no biting" though.
: Vale Tudo fights, which is much more vicious than UFC ever was allowed every kind of hit, including the spine or neck. BJJ was the most succesfull martial art into Vale Tudo, and is one of the most successfull in MMA today. By the way, a grappler would not expose his spine if such hits were allowed, and even while exposed it's hard to land a devastating blow to the spine while defending a take-down. So please, stop adding this kind of nonsense about rules, and saying that BJJ succes has been attributed PRIMARLY to the rules: you are denying history and currenct facts and statistics, and even worse: not citing a reliable source. Regards Loudenvier 22:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you made me laugh. Thank you. You´ve choosen the wrong guy to throw up the Kimura fact in the face: I do not differentiate Judo from BJJ. To me they only differ in training emphasis: Newaza vs Tachiwaza (if you don't know what it is go do your homework). Kimura never fought Rickinson, where did you got that info? A devastating blow to the spine is very hard to deliver. It can occur if the defender is on all-fours, which is a position a BJJ will avoid above anything else. The exposed spine and neck you see in many fights are of clumsy takedown attempts. You never saw Yoshida on such exposes stance even tough he lost a good deal of fights. I was never POV towards BJJ, although I practice it, but you are beign POV against it without providing a reliable basis for your claims. Did you saw the fight of Minotauro against Bobb Sapp? Well, your claim that strikes that couldn't put someone in a coma aren't allowed is at least a litle disputed after you saw that fight. I do also think that this articles needs a rewrite because it is inaccurate and with a tone not proper to wikipedia, but it should be written by unbiased people, not by detractors nor advocates of BJJ. Regards Loudenvier 18:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  UFC Rules in grapplers favor? 

message: Interesting long article here, but pictures of the art in practice would be nice. Colonel Marksman 02:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: This article is one of [ thousands] on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message on the talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material violating someone's copyright. If you are not sure whether the link on this article should be removed or if you would like to help spread this message, contact us on User talk:J.smith/YouTube Linklist. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 00:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  YouTube links 

message: I've seen various version on this can we get a consensus here people support. Was Mitsuyo Maeda a jujitsu and judo expert? I've reverted one edit that said he wasn't as else where in the article it says he was. --Nate1481 09:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was a Judo expert. He was from the Kodokan. He was sent overseas to spread Judo to the western world by Jigoro Kano. In his epoch Judo was a kind of Ju-Jutsu, the Kano Ju-Jutsu. Maeda could use Ju-jutsu as a general term encompasing his Judo. Prior to 1925 Judo was mostly fight on the ground. The triangle choke for example came from Judo (Kosen Judo). All serious sources tell, correctly, that Maeda was a Judo expert, but, since Judo was a school of Jiu-jitsu, he was also a jiu-jitsu expert, get it? Regards Loudenvier 17:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was the impression I had originally so explicitly stating he was not a JuJitsu expert is misleading, sounds like the most appropriate thing to do would be to state that in the article, something like "he was an expert in Judo, which was still being synthesized from various styles of JuJitsu at the time" --Nate1481 01:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  Just read your edits more a less what I had in mind (but better phrased) it might be an idea to mention that the Kodokan curriculum was still under development at the time. --Nate1481 01:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  At that time, Jigoro Kano used to give black belts in Judo for other exponents in other schools of Jiu-jitsu. But Maeda wasn't one of those. He trained in Kodokan Judo almost exclusively. Judo was (and to me it still is) a school of Jiu-Jitsu. Our own sport BJJ is much more like Judo than the old jiu-jitsu schools that Kano used to create his Judo. Randori is the key relation here: old jiu-jitsu schools normally trained with Kata or simulated techniques, BJJ and Judo train with full force in Randori, which is more closely related to real fighting while still protecting its practitioners. That's why the injury rate is so low in both BJJ and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. BJJ enforces Randori even further, here in Brazil we spent 80% of our training time in Randori (BJJ). Regards Loudenvier 12:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I´ve noticed that. The entire article seems a great mess of duplicate information. Currently I do not have much spare time at my work to review wikipedia pages and I am without internet connection at home... Even agreeing completely with you there's not much I could do right now. Perhaps somebody else could merge those sections, or, better yet, put the correct info on each one. Regards. Loudenvier 14:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Put it on WikiProject Martial Arts I'd suggest merge, removing repeats, and splitting under 
*Over view- What it is now, principles etc. 
*History- Maeda Judo> development by Graces
*Vale Tudo- how this affected it
*? - introduction in the states ufc
Done some but needs more --Nate1481 17:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: There should be a section on Competition and the rules of competitions. Patiwat 22:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Competition and Scoring 

message: The article could do with a few pictures to break up the text can anyone help? --Nate1481 17:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: There's great misconception among newcomers (anyone born after the 1970s) about who was the actual "father" or founder of BJJ (GJJ). Actually Carlos and Hélio could share 50% each for this. There's no single founder. Contrary to common knowledge Hélio didn't made a quantum leap and discovered the principles of leverage: the art his brother taught him was Judo, which already emphasized leverage instead of raw power. Maeda itself was an example of a small fighter that used leverage and finesse to win his fights. Carlos role as founder of GJJ is sometimes shadowed by Gracie's marketing/hype itself, focusing too much on the Hélio's family branch. Hélio was a hell good of a teacher and fighter, and he and Carlos were the pivotal forces of early BJJ. I own a book about Maeda from a scholar on the history of judo in Brazil that tells the documented history of Maeda and BJJ on its very beginning. I'll be updating Carlos Gracie and Maeda's article to reflect that knowledge soon but I always wanted to make this "founder" issue clear. Regards Loudenvier 19:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carlos vs. Hélio, who is the father of BJJ 

message: I've rewritten the following paragraph:
:A black belt in Jiu-Jitsu signifies a very high level of expertise and skills. To achieve a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu is typically much more difficult than in any other martial art. This is because that in practically every other martial art, a black belt does not mean that the holder is an "expert" or a good fighter, nor is it supposed to mean that! It is because of Hollywood that the general public holds a misconception of what a black belt means. All a black belt is supposed to mean is that the holder is competent at the basics of that particular art in which they hold the rank in. It is often said that a black belt is really only the begining and the holder is now ready to learn. The Gracies however have elevated the black belt to a level within their own system to such a high level that to hold a black belt really does signify expertise in their system. This helps assure that the art remains strong and that a black belt is a very special and prized goal. Practially speaking, a purple belt in Jiu-Jitsu is about equal to a black belt in other arts as far as skills, competence and time involved to achieve the rank (in their own respective arts).
It's full of nonsense. The purple belt part is what strikes me more surprisingly. Since I'm a BJJ purple belt myself, I can't accept that! I also practice Judo with Medhi sensei (the one who taught Rickinson, Royler, etc. Judo), and I have a hard time with his Judo black-belts on ground fighting (which comprises 50% of his training regime!), two of them simply always submit me many times in a row during rolling. Before you start saying my BJJ sucks, when I was attending the Gracie Centro School of JJ (Rolker Gracie) here in Rio de Janeiro downtown, I never had trouble dealing with the other purple belts there... (although I'd never defeated any of the brown and black belts there) Loudenvier 14:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grading nonsense 

message: :"Submission holds can be grouped into two broad categories: joint locks and chokes."
Should there be a third category for things like bicep and calf slicers?  "Crushing techniques" or some such? Akqjt 15:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Submissions 

message: I noticed that you have been involved in the BJJ page, their is now a wiki just for BJJ at...
http://wikibjj.com
Check it out, i think its a great idea. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.180.71.99 (talk) 06:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  BJJ