Talk:Alexander Nevsky Cathedral, Warsaw

message: Alex, looking at the references in Polish I read that the there were proposals to turn the cathedral into a Catholic church, which would have preserved the building, but they were never carried out. Besides, if the bulding did start to function as a Catholic church in any serious way, I doubt that it would have been demolished. The Germans during their occupation in 1915-1918 used the cathedral as a garrison church, so maybe it was then that the alterations you are mentioning were made.  Anyway, let me know what sources you are using to add the information about use as "Cathedral of Saint Henric".  Balcer 00:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great job. In the referenced you looked at, did you by any chance find any clue to the 'what is the oldest Orthodox church in Warsaw' question, raised at Talk:Warsaw Uprising (1794)?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: We could also use a reference for the claim that stone from the altar was used in Pilsudski's tombstone.  At this point I am not claiming this did not happen, but it seems to me somewhat controversial, and could really use a credible citation. Balcer 02:02, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The burialplace of Pilsudski is shown in this photo.  As you can see, it is a very simple affair, and I do not see where the jasper columns from the cathedral altar would go.  Furthermore, my Google searches turned up no confirmation of the claim.  So, for now, until solid references are provided, I am removing the relevant sentence. Balcer 04:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Jasper columns used for Pilsudsky burial are mentioned in a few articles on different sites of the Russian Orthodox Church like [] or Labyntsev-Schavinskaya article in the reference section, etc. Frankly, I would not bet my life based on these sources. It might be a legend.  And indeed there is nothing resembling these columns on the photos of the Pilsudsky thomb. The jasper columns seems to be a common feature of altars of the contemporary rich Orthodox Churches. They were also a part of the altar of the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow and the Kazan Cathedral in Saint Petersburg, etc. Incidentally all seems to be stolen or lost or misplaced. abakharev 05:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Old talk

message: I shall restored blanked information as soon as possible.
Many facts have been deleted, for example the date of founding, the fact where it was placed etc. As usuall information about Russian imperialism is being deleted.
--Molobo 08:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Molobo, even with my terrible Polish, I read that the article speaks about the year of tsar's approval and not the date to be picked for an anniversary of partition. Should the tsar have waited a year just to avoid a coinsidence? What else is deleted? --Irpen 08:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: And what did I get wrong. The whole year was a centenial anniversary. If Aleksandr signed the approval on exactly January 21, 1893, that would have been notable. Otherwise, there is nothing notable in a particular year. If the tsar gets a proposal, he approves or rejects it. That's all. He doesn't wait for the whole year just because the year is centennial. --Irpen 09:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Blanking

message: Due to blanking and discussion I added tag to indicate that the current state of article isn't considered by some editors as neutral. Especially deletion of information about the placement of the building, the date it was founded and how it was perceived by Polish population is worrying as to neutrality. As to the building, it was simply a building that was badly constructed, obstructed the architecture of the city, and was build as symbol of Russian domination. That it had something to do with Orthodox faith was the least important factor, especially as Orthodox Russian population left together with Russian occupation of Poland(or if you prefere Irpen's sources "the benevolent rule of glorious Tsars" ;) )
--Molobo 08:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tag

message: Plese find objective resources, the site you quote can't be seen as objective as it represents Orthodox Church, and we need to cross examine its claims, as it is known Orthodox church is quite paranoid towards Catholicism and its statements could be biased. Can you find an non-Orthodox source claiming the same fact ?
--Molobo 09:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reliable sources

message: It's so interesting that I am providing a partial translation below..  It shows well the point of view of the inhabitants of Warsaw at the time.
May, 1920
About the church on Saxon Square
There has not been among us an affair which generated as much discussion as the case of the cathedral on Saxon Square.
To demolish it, or to leave it?
Not effective were the voices of realists reminding that Poland surely has a thousand problems more important than this small detail of public life.  The discussion went on and goes on today, attracting ever new supporters and opponents of the demolition.  This heated discussion is entirely understandable.  The cathedral on Saxon square, built in our capital by Russia, strikes directly at Polish feeling.  The government of the partitioner constructed the church not for real religious reasons, but to annoy Polish national ambition.  It constructed it to make explicit its state power, to give Warsaw an oriental branding.  It purposely built it to such great height and in a central location of the city, so that its size and placement would squash the Polish-European appearance and character of the city.  The church came from an evil feeling.  This evil feeling, locked into the church's stones, generates a yearning for revenge among Polish masses and individuals.  
The discussion so far about the cathedral accepts only two radical methods of solving the issue: 1) leave the cathedral in its entirety, in its current state, or 2) demolish it completely, saving only exterior and interior mosaics, as works of art.  The supporters of the first point of view call upon reasons of economy, as the demolition of this colossal building would supposedly cost tens of millions of marks; the supporters of the second aproach use arguments involving our national pride and esthetic.  It cannot be denied, after all, that the cathedral, as a work of architecture, is ugly, especially in its upper parts, and it not only is not an asset to the city's appearance, but in fact it is a disfigurement of Warsaw.
[The article goes on to discuss the compromise solution of reconstructing the building and turning it into a Catholic church, after removing many of the offending architectural features]Balcer 16:38, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder what is the copyright status of pictures in a Polish magazine from 1920 (hence published 86 years ago). Any experts out there? Balcer 17:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair use in is certailny a good option for now.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:19, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Molobo, I know of your views as you already said so. But please do not unnecessarily annoy other editors by this nonsense that Russian is somehow not European. We all already know exactly how you view it and what you imply by it. So just  keep it to yourself. It's not a point in the argument anyway, so no need to shout such nonsense for an upteenth time. --Irpen 17:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I am enjoying your constructive and enlightened contributions to this discussion (this one in particular).  Keep them coming. Balcer 18:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if we get into architectural terminolgy I would love for someone to define what is European and what is not? The cathedral is a form of 19th century modern Ampire style, - massive scale buildings vivedely decorated with a theme (in this case Russo-Byzantine) likewise in Britain similar grand structures were built only with a Gothic theme. (Take the House of Parliament building). Ampire saw itself in the United States, in China, in what remained of Persia and the Ottoman Empire, each with their own destinct decoration. In that sense Ampire is neither European nor Asian but a world-driven style which dominated the architecture until merging into the ar-deco in the first half of the 20th century and in the USSR eventually lagged on the longest to form the Stalinist architecture. BTW Molobo, what do you make of Pałac Kultury i Nauki? --Kuban Cossack 17:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I only translated the article to illustrate the POV of Warsaw inhabitants at the time.  From the article, it would appear that on the whole they did not consider Russian Orthodox architecture European.  Now, we might mention this in the article, solely to indicate what the feelings were about the church in Warsaw of the time, not making sweeping statements about Russian architecture in general.  I would caution everybody from reading too much into that article, as it is only a snapshot of feelings in a particular place, at a particular time.Balcer 17:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1920 article from Tygodnik Ilustrowany

message: Balcer, I consider you the most neutral Polish editor (no offense to others, please. Myself for one isn't the most neutral Ukrainian editor either), and I am saddened that you reacted to my edit so harshly. My edit included a mistake in that committal of PL to Christian ideal being mentioned in the constitution and when you linked the constitution, I removed it. It amazes me that not everyone agrees that it is correct to call Poland a Christian country. This is a fairly neutral statement and does not require a fundamentalist government. In a similar way, Italy or Mexico are Christian countries or Turkey is a Muslim country. Soviet Union even in early stages when most of its population still self-identified as christian was never a christian country because the government was explicitly and militantly godless most of the time.
In this respect, it is peculiar that the government of a christian country orders a demolition of the christian church, even though (or perhaps especially because) the country is predominantly catholic and the church is orthodox. I've seen refs about many orthodox churches destroyed in the interwar Poland, even the village churches. This is described in the academic literature in English and I may bring it up to WP some time but I had no intention to bring this to this article. This article is about a particular magnificent cathedral and the uniqueness of this part of the context of its destruction deserves to be mentioned in the intro. 
As I explained, you can find easily how the fact that crusaders on the mission embraced by the Pope, a self-claimed leader of an entire christian world, ransacked Constantinople, one of the cradles of the Christianity of the time, is notable exactly despite (or especially because of) Constantinople was Orthodox. So, while my addition could possibly be improved, I don't agree with its deletion. 
And I never said that the article should be hidden from users. I said that your fast hand announcement brought a couple of rabid reverters and now, the article's history will be growing with a page per day speed with no use. Anyway, if you disagree with my edit, just talk. I will listen. --Irpen 18:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's just get back to the contentious point

message: I'd suggest all the contributors to visit WP:TEA. You are all doing a good job, and the article is improving constantly. I have two questions for you: 1) what was built in place of the Cathedral 2)  what are the other famous Orthodox Churches in Warsaw? Which one is the oldest, and are there any today? This info may be useful for the article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, the church in Wołomin was built in 1938. Currently the community has some 20 members altogether - the paroch included. //Halibutt
The St. Mary Magdalene's Cathedral in Praga picture, is quite beautiful. Thanks. Dr. Dan 04:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we should start a separate series of articles: Orthodox Churches in Warsaw. --Kuban Cossack  19:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or even a broader one: Treatment of the Orthodox Church in the interwar Poland. I have some references written just on the subject. But, perhaps, Halibutt would agree that such important topic should not be a separate article but a section in History of Poland (1918-1939) similar to his masterpiece section "Treatment of Polish citizens by Soviet occupants" in the History of Poland (1939-1945). I will try start this section once I can put aside some time for that. --Irpen 19:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Irpen, given that your recent POV edit has been totally discretited (even you have not bothered to argue in its favor anymore), don't you think it would be a good time to reconsider your strategy?  At the very minimum, could you at least acknowledge that you were in the wrong here, and that your edit might have been, just possibly, biased and non-neutral? Would it really be a good follow-up to this fiasco to start a brand new POV article so that we can have a similar discussion all over again, just on a slightly different topic?  If that is your plan, please reconsider.  If I was in your shoes (i.e. introduced controversial changes into an article on a divisive topic and have been proved wrong), I definitely would. Balcer 20:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Kuban Cossack suggestion is a good one, but Irpen's reeks of POV pushing, I am afraid. But perhaps instead of Orthodox Churches in Warsaw we may just start Churches in Warsaw with a subsections on various Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and other churches? Alternatively Places of worship in Warsaw may be better, including synagogues and other non-chruch-like temples.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Irpen, for an umpteenth time let me remind you that this is not article about History of Poland but about something else. I have stated several times that the probelmatic section should be copied to a subarticle and only a summary version should be left there. As far as this argument goes, I find myself supporting Balcer, I am afraid. I will welcome your expantion of my knowledge, but I'd really, really, really apreciate it if you would use sources other then Russian 19th century historiography.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I simply gave up and started calling your actions by their proper name. Which of course if OT for this discussion. //Halibutt 08:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On a lighter note, I started an article on Places of worship in Warsaw. Feel free to add more to the list. //Halibutt 16:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relax and take a deep breath 

message: One more thing: currently the article states that Eastern Orthodox churches have the altar oriented to the East, and Roman Catholic churches have it oriented to the West, the reconstruction transformed the old altar into the pipe organ room, and led to other significant alterations. Frankly, I doubt this was the reason since... Catholic churches usually have their altars oriented to the East as well. The very word (oriented) makes it pretty clear, not to mention hundreds of thousands of churches in the world. This is true both to the St. John's Cathedral of Warsaw (medieval) and my parochial church (built some 5 years ago). //Halibutt 11:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not sure about this one as well, but did not want to remove it as it did not seem impossible.  I will remove this sentence now. Balcer 13:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, the orientation is not as closely observed in modern churches as it used to be until 18th century, but still. //Halibutt 15:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orientation 

message: What a shame... Satanic Vatican and his servents... Tipical for nations which changed their religion...
--Boris Godunov (talk) 22:40, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: !!!

message: Primary problem: needs more citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:42, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not B-class

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thread_title:  External links modified