Talk:Hoi polloi

message: The misuse to mean "upper class" has been mildly challenged.  The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition usage note supports the existence of the common misuse, though is not the source. -- Bitt 00:10, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Could we cite the source for this misuse in the main article? Personally I had never heard the word misused in this way, and thought maybe the author was confused with "hoity-toity." --63.65.27.18 13:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: uh, the three stooges misused it that way in 1935.  And Larry King's use of the term to describe the sport of polo, also discussed in the article may qualify as a misuse; I  think its debatable that such a vox populi as Larry King would not be asserting his i'm-so-common brand aspects by using "hoi polloi" in its popular (three stooges, dammit!) sense of "those who use the term 'hoi polloi' to mean 'masses'"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minitrue (talk • contribs) 01:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see why the occasional misuse of a word should be included in a WP article. Especially since there are no very good references for this. I suggest removing it, and will do so unless there are reasons advanced for not doing so. Cooke (talk) 22:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that "Also, the phrase has at times been used to mean the exact opposite of its originally intended meaning," as the article says now, is sufficient. I've heard the misuse of the term, but the article needn't dwell on anything but the correct use. Alpheus (talk) 20:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Slate's recent article might be of use, including 'hoi polloi' in its list of misused terms http://www.slate.com/id/2290536/ Biasedbulldog (talk) 19:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Misuse to mean "upper class"

message: Would this not be better as a wiktionary article?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.110.86.44 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 6 November 2005   (UTC)
: I agree. I wish i knew how to nominate a page for moving. --Orthografer 01:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe there is enough encyclopedic content here for this to merit inclusion in the encyclopedia. Johntex\talk 01:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dictionary article?

message: Does this article belong in any of these? I can find no phrases borrowed from other languages on those pages. Nor is it listed in the Wictionary idioms category.  meco 17:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question.  To which pages are referring when you say "those pages"?  Thanks, Johntex\talk 18:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks, I understand your question now.  I think a case could be made for :Category:English phrases since the phrase is used in English.  I don't think the phrase qualifies as an idiom since it means pretty much what the Greek words themselves mean.  True, there is a nuance of meaning there that is not neccessarily obvious, but I am not sure that qualifies it to be considered an idiom in the way that "all hat and no cattle" or "a few fries short of a happy meal" would be idioms.  You may also want to post your question to those category talk pages, as I don't think this page gets that much traffic.  Best, Johntex\talk 19:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Idiom list or English phrases category

message: Seems to be a problem with footnotes from #5 onwards. I don't know how to fix them. Nurg 04:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I'll go through and fix them when I have a bit more time. Johntex\talk 14:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Forgot to mention - I fixed them. Johntex\talk 01:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with footnotes

message: Surley A More World Wide Definition Than "Middle America" Would Be Better Understood —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.146.5.172 (talk) 18:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's one of 14 synonyms listed.  They are all supported by the source and listed in the order provided by the source, which seems to best order to me.  Perhaps you would like to consider one of the other 13 in forming your udnerstanding? Johntex\talk 06:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As it's decidedly an unhelpful addition to the article, I'm going to delete it and replace it with an ellipsis. The quotation will just start two words later. --Dweller 15:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle America

message: "Alternative gospel band Hoi Polloi was formed in New Zealand by vocalist Jenny Gullen, her husband, bassist Andrew Horst, guitarist David Ball and drummer Jozsef Fityus. Moving to the U.S., Hoi Polloi performed their first gig at the 1990 Cornerstone Festival and signed to the gospel label Reunion soon after. A restrictive contract, however, forced the band into two albums that overly polished their rugged, rootsy sound, Hoi Polloi (1992) and Spin Me (1993). Ball and Fityus returned to the homeland in 1994, forcing the recruitment of New Zealand native Scott Pearson on drums and American guitarist Troy Daugherty. In mid-1995, Hoi Polloi released Happy Ever After; its single "Tiptoe" spent eight weeks at the top of the Christian rock charts, and the album crossed over to college and commercial-alternative radio. ~ John Bush, All Music Guide"
The section on "Other Uses" contained rather too much detail on the Hoi Polloi band. I removed it, but I'll add it here in case someone decides to create an article on the band and could find the info useful. Galanskov 08:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gospel band 

message: I'm not one to jump on the PC bandwagon in general, but in this case I find the picture to be innappropriate. The reasons that come to mind, once I start down that PC path, include the declaration that they are hoi polloi but the use of "perceived" in "perceived maltreatment" and that they are developing world people rather than westerners, since westerners make up most of Wikipedia's users - I can only imagine the response if the image showed protesting U.S. minorities, assuming someone noticed it. Now, all this hinges on the term being significantly derogatory, as I understand it to be. However, I'm not going to change it since I realize it might not have the connotations I have assumed it does (I suspect originally it was just descriptive), and because I can't think of an image to replace it with, let alone have one to use, not that every article must have an image. Any thoughts? --Fitzhugh 01:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, Fitzhugh, this has nothing to do with minorities.  The people in that photo are in the ethnic majority in the nation where they live.  Hoi polloi is about class, not race. Johntex\talk 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hearing no complaints, I have updated the capture to say, "The Hoi Polloi march in a protest for more rights." Johntex\talk 19:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is an interesting choice to use as hoi polloi.  It certainly could easily be interpreted negatively, as an implicit slight on protesters.  It really depends on the definition in mind, and informs on how those that see protesters in this way understand, or at least are using in this instance, the term.  It could be unintentional and not intended as a slight.  Does hoi polloi simply mean the many?  Clearly, protesters are the many, in that they're common people, not in power (whether or not mainstream --protests can be radical or pervasive).  So it can fit as an example under this general definition.  But, if they were empowered they needn't protest.  The way I've understood the term is more in line with the hysterical, uneducated masses; not the aware thus discontented (and protesting) yet outsider.  Non-hoi polloi, the ruling class, are an elite, insular group.  Those people would view the uppity protesters as hoi polloi.  We can agree that it has to do with status, with socioeconomic class.  I don't think it's the most general, common, or applicable example of hoi polloi, but I suppose I have no severe problem with it.  Opposed, I am not, to a better example, however.  Any use of the term is derogatory whether it be to protests, huge sporting events, or whatever, maybe I'm splitting hairs. Evolauxia 04:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

text: to me, it seems offending against those people. by using this picture, you say that they're "the many" (and hoi polloi is certainly not neutral), so it's like you were saying "look at the masses protesting again" in a very condescinding way. so i think the picture is really not appropriate, no matter what you write under it.  --Jimynu (talk) 12:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the image used insulting? 

message: I've never come across the English pronunciation "ho-ee poll-oo-ee". It's "hoy puh-loy", to rhyme with toy. My dictionary agrees. 143.252.80.100 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And this is exactly what the article says.--   Avg    17:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: How do you pronounce "two Ls" differently from one? Surely there's not a STOP in between. You go into the L sound, and you come out of it, regardless of where it's attached or how many there are.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 02:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  In many languages (though not in English), a double or long consonant is audibly distinguished from a single or short one—not by a stop in between, but simply by being held longer. --Smeazel (talk) 20:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: I was surprised to find so many 19th century usages listed in the article, but no mention of Dryden's use in Dramatick Poesie, which to the best of my knowledge is the earliest use of the term in the English language.
I wasn't sure if it warranted a separate section just for that, so I added a sentence to the end of 19th century section.  If anyone wants to rearrange the structure, be my guest.  The text of Dramatick Poesie is available online.  Follow the link to the wiki article and you'll find a link to the text at the bottom. Go there and search "hoi polloi" and you'll find the sentence in question.  It's in ¶108.  Iglew (talk) 10:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dryden 

message: The article mentions that there's some debate over whether the English article, "the", is redundant or not. Surely a better reference for the debate can be found than a Google Fight? Like, perhaps, a link to a prominent debate? I believe this is well represented by the snarky entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary , but as a better might be found (say, in Oxford), I'll leave off editing.--Rfsmit (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundant English article, "the" 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061025152808/http://kmecholsky.multiply.com/journal to http://kmecholsky.multiply.com/journal
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060225165556/http://www.solharvest.com/cclosers/RAWilson-Prometheus.pdf to http://www.solharvest.com/cclosers/RAWilson-Prometheus.pdf
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20010401145645/http://www.hoipolloi.org/ to http://www.hoipolloi.org/
*Added archive https://archive.is/20120717040339/http://www.agia-galini.com/en/cafe-bars/hoi-polloi to http://www.agia-galini.com/en/cafe-bars/hoi-polloi
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It seems like a deliberate political move to have a one-time statement at the top of a list for common synonyms, especially following "express the same or similar distaste for the common people felt by those who believe themselves to be superior." Obviously Clinton's statement was offensive to many people, and I agree that it fits the bill, but it's not exactly a common turn of phrase. Furthermore, it also ascribes the statement to feelings of superiority, which has certainly been argued by many, when Clinton herself immediately followed it by saying "They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it." At any point, none of us are here to condemn or defend Hillary Clinton, and this seems like condemnation.
Perhaps we could put a link to the "Basket of Deplorables" article in the "see also" section?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flyest nihilist (talk • contribs) 02:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does "Basket of Deplorables" need to be first on the synonym list?