Talk:Mount Lebanon

message: A Lebanese friend recently told me that, during World War I, half the population of Mount Lebanon died in an artificial famine orchestrated by the Young Turk.  This is recognized by Lebanon but denied by Turkey.  This is apparently intertwined with the same politics associated with the Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide, burning of Smyrna, etc.  However, I don't know much about this, and know of few materials on the subject, but it sounds like something important to mention. - Gilgamesh 16:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide 

message: This article should be split to 2
- Leave this article only refering to the "Mount Lebanon" as a mountain range
- Create a new section "Mount Lebanon Province" and move the part which talks about the "Mount Lebanon" as political entity there. BlingBling10 21:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  House keeping

message: I removed the following section for Saadallah Howayek, and feel it might be useful here:
=== Administration of Mount Lebanon ===
In 1861 the Ottomans separated Mount Lebanon from Syria. They reunited the geography under a non-Lebanese Christian mutasarrif (governor) appointed by the Ottoman sultan and who had approval of the European powers. 
The mutasarrif was assisted by an administrative council of twelve members from the various religious communities in Mount Lebanon:
* four Maronites
* three Druze
* one Turk (In the Ottoman Empire, Turk often referred to any Orthodox Sunni Muslim, regardless of ethnicity (as opposed to Ottoman non-Muslims) 
* two Greeks (Orthodox)
* one Greek Uniate (Melkite, or Greek Catholic)
* one Shiite
The members were elected from the seven districts  or Aqdya, 
* Batroun, one Maronite
* Keserwan, one Maronite
* Jezzine, one Maronite, one Druze and one Sunni Muslim
* Matn, one Maronite, one Druze, one Shiite and one Greek Orthodox
* Chouf, one Druze
* Kura, one Greek Orthodox
* Zahle, one Greek Catholic
SADADS (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Governance 

message: In 1861 the Ottomans separated Mount Lebanon from Syria. They reunited the geography under a non-Lebanese Christian mutasarrif (governor) appointed by the Ottoman sultan and who had approval of the European powers. 
The mutasarrif was assisted by an administrative council of twelve members from the various religious communities in Mount Lebanon:
* four Maronites
* three Druze
* one Turk (In the Ottoman Empire, Turk often referred to any Orthodox Sunni Muslim, regardless of ethnicity (as opposed to Ottoman non-Muslims) 
* two Greeks (Orthodox)
* one Greek Uniate (Melkite, or Greek Catholic)
* one Shiite
The members were elected from the seven districts  or Aqdya, 
* Batroun, one Maronite
* Keserwan, one Maronite
* Jezzine, one Maronite, one Druze and one Sunni Muslim
* Matn, one Maronite, one Druze, one Shiite and one Greek Orthodox
* Chouf, one Druze
* Kura, one Greek Orthodox
* Zahle, one Greek Catholic
SADADS (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Administration of Mount Lebanon 

message: We're going to need a better source for the "heart of god" statement than a website by Mislav Popovic. I'm not able to verify anything about them, making this an unreliable source. ← George [talk] 10:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that Lubb, Lebb and Leb means heart in Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew so the "Heart of God" idea is at least not totally made up regardless who this Mislav Popovic is. I am sure I can find proper academic sources for it. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 12:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do. I don't speak Syriac, so a proper academic source is necessary to confirm it. ← George [talk] 18:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lebanese traditions" by Mislav Popovic 

message: I saw recently that an editor had listed this discussion on the WP:3O page requesting a neutral opinion.  I would be happy to offer such an opinion.  I am glad to see that both George and Ibrahim4048 are enthusiastic editors.  While I do not have as extensive a background in this matter as you both do, I hope I can be of some help.  I would appreciate it if one or both of you could clearly explain the two differing proposals/viewpoints in under a paragraph.  I have read the above information, but I find that it helps to simply and briefly state the main points of both proposals.  Thank you both again for your hard work. Matheuler 22:37, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Matheuler, thanks for stopping by to help out. My initial reaction to Ibrahim4048's insertion of the Syriac name was to remove it, because it seemed to be a language no longer used in the area; a historical name. After reading through Wikipedia's geographic naming conventions, I realized that it was probably okay to include the name as one "used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". The problem with including it in the lead is that there are many such historical names for the area because many groups conquered or controlled the area. These languages include Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Aramaic, Turkish, Arabic, and French, and possibly others. Not wanting to have a long listing of such alternative names for the region in the lead, I created the Names section, adding the Semitic root, Ibrahim4048's Syriac, as well as the French, and marking it as needing expansion (since I don't know all the historic names of the region). I think we were mostly in agreement up until that point, but then our content dispute arose. My preferred wording for mention of the Syriac was: In Syriac, a language used locally from the third to the thirteenth centuries (and by some Maronites until the late seventeenth century), and the liturgical language of the Maronite Church, the area is called ܛܘܪ ܠܒܢܢ (Tur Lebnon). I cited a book titled History Of Syria: Including Lebanon And Palestine for this timeline, which states that "Syriac, the langauge of Edessa, became with local variations the language of the churches of Syria, Lebanon and Mesopotamia and was used from the third to the thirteenth centuries, when it was displaced by Arabic." Later, the same source states that "Maronite Lebanon put up a desperate and prolonged fight until the late seventeenth century. Indeed Syriac is still spoken in three villages in Anti-Lebanon: Ma'lula, Bakh'ah, and Jubb'adin." (The Anti-Lebanon mountains is the name of the mountain range between Lebanon and Syria, which does not include Mount Lebanon, the topic of this article.) Ibrahim4048's version is: Another theory, by among others Lebanese Bishop George Saliba, is that the origin of the word Lebanon is from Syriac (Middle Aramaic dialect) Lebnon, "leb" is heart, (a)non is God, which can be translated as "the heart of God". The area is called ܛܘܪ ܠܒܢܢ (Tur Lebnon) in various modern dialects of Syriac. Classical Syriac is the liturgical language of the Maronite Church and the Western Aramaic dialect of Syriac was the original spoken language of the Maronites before it was displaced by Arabic. Western Neo-Aramaic, which is the sole survivor of Western Aramaic, is still spoken in a few villages of the Anti-Lebanon Area. The source cited for the first statement is Zinda Magazine, which is a service of the Zinda Corporation. I don't consider it to be a reliable source, and am unable to verify the claim from any reliable sources. The second statement is completely unreferenced, and strikes me as original research to a large extent. Furthermore, it discusses in detail things unrelated to the topic of this article, Mount Lebanon, that I view as more appropriately mentioned in the Maronite or Syriac articles. ← George [talk] 23:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for that comprehensive summary.  I agree with George that it would be beneficial if more independent secondary sources could be found if Ibrahim4048 wishes to include the contoversial statements.  But I will wait to hear from him regarding whether he feels there is any addition points that should be brought up.  Thanks again to both of you for your work. Matheuler 20:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just following up. Since it's been two weeks since this conversation went stale, and since the user hasn't bothered to join the conversation to defend their addtion, I'll probably be reverting their edits shortly. ← George [talk] 09:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found this page from the Third Opinion template on the top of the article page.  FWIW, I agree with Matheuler's view on the dispute.  I've removed the template, however will leave it to George to update the article accordingly (mostly because I am editing from work, and do not have the appropriate language packs installed to see the foreign characters). PGWG (talk) 14:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've actually reverted back a ways further, back before this user's insertion of material. After reviewing their edit history, it became pretty clear that they are a SPA that solely goes around eulogizing and promoting Syriac nationalism. I believe their initial edit was added due to this personal bias, and the user as dropped out of this discussion. ← George [talk] 02:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Opinion