Talk:Zyklon B

message: Zyklon B is not a disinfectant and has no disinfecting properties.
The German wartime guidelines and procedure for using Zyklon B was a 2-page double sided document given the document title "NI-9912" in the postwar Nuremberg Trials.  During the war these guidelines and procedures were mass printed and sent throughout German and German occupied territories for them to use for Zyklon fumigations.
There are plenty of copies to google around for;  but this one webpage on Robert Faurisson's blog has both the German copy of the 4 pages and a very good English translation in 6 pages:
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2015/07/a-document-among-others-stating.html
At the very end of the first section it clearly states:
"Bakterian werden durch Blausäure nicht vernichtet"
or in English:
"Prussic acid does not kill bacteria"
Hydrogen cyanide is not a disinfectant and has never been used as a disinfectant because it is useless as a disinfectant.
I am therefore replacing all instances of "disinfect" with "disinfest" in this wikipedia page.
While it is true that there are many persons incorrectly claiming that Zyklon is a disinfectant;  they are all wrong and are quite confused on this matter.  The "disinfecting department" handled delousing in wartime Germany - delousing is NOT "disinfecting" though - and this is probably why so many people incorrectly use the term "disinfect".  It is categorically undeniably incorrect though because neither hydrocyanic acid (liquid) nor hydrogen cyanide gas has any effect on germs (nor cyanide salts for that matter - that handles liquid, gas, and solid ;) ).  I have little doubt that the instances of the word "disinfect" in this article are mistranslations of the German word for disinfest.
I am unable to edit the head portion which states:
"Uses included delousing clothing and disinfecting ships, warehouses, and trains"
"Disinfecting" things would mean scrubbing them with bleach or Lysol or something.  Zyklon is a substrate with HCN adsorbed on to it that evaporates off in use - fumigating the area around it with HCN.  The HCN has no effect on microorganisms but is very toxic to larger organisms like lice, rats, people, etc.  Someone needs to change this instance of "disinfecting" above with "disinfesting".  Zyklon is of course a pesticide - not a disinfectant.
EDIT:  I figured out how to edit that section.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.79.161 (talk) 06:41, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for fixing this. Sometimes one is so focused on certain aspects of an article that mistakes like that one become effectively invisible. Incidentally, if you create an account, you can set your preferences so that a first-paragraph Edit link is displayed. Rivertorch's Evil Twin (talk) 15:24, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "disinfect" vs "disinfest" 

message: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:En-us-Zyklon-B-.ogg 
thanks, guys ThatGirlTayler (talk) 05:32, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: English pronunciation of 'Zyklon-B' was added

message: Here's a RS and proposed outline for a new section to the article (feel free to reformat):
:One system of delousing using Zyklon B consisted of eight adjacent 10 cubic-meter gas chambers with gas-tight doors on each end. Infested clothes went in one end and fumigated clothes came out the clean end. A radiator heated the chamber, a fan inside circulated the gas. Fumigation took 60-90 minutes followed by ventilating the chamber. Source: "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp", Michael Berenbaum, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Indiana University Press, 1998 P 213
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Raquel Baranow (talk • contribs) 01:44, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The passage in that book does not support the proposed addition to the article. RivertorchFIREWATER 03:51, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure how you figure that. This article is about Zyklon, Zyklon was used to disinfest clothing. Here's a source where Zyklon was used by the US government on the Mexican border. Raquel Baranow (talk) 04:00, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It has to do with context. First, you add an image that's purportedly of a Zyklon B canister purportedly used for non-murderous purposes at a death camp. Then you post a comment linking to pages with bizarre fringe content, including Holocaust denial bullshit. Now you source a statement about non-murderous use of Zyklon B to a book about another death camp. Perhaps you see why that sequence might raise a red flag or two. RivertorchFIREWATER 04:19, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are over-reacting, Rivertorch. If I understand Raquel Baranow correctly, she is saying that the Nazis used Zyklon B for disinfestation as well as for killing people, not instead of for killing people so this is not holocaust denial. The quote from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum seems to back up this use for disinfestation. Roberttherambler (talk) 01:59, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:   I found more sources and a new pic showing these are disinfestation chambers. This source shows a disinfestation chamber on page 12 with more info on it's operation, Here's an essay by Harry W. Mazal describing how the disinfestation chambers work, which also shows a close-up pic of the Zyklon B dispenser. Raquel Baranow (talk) 02:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: http://www.rodoh.us cannot be considered a reliable source for use on this wiki. Mazal was a collector, not a historian, so I don't think that's a high quality scholarly resource either. Besides, the point that the Germans used Zyklon B for de-lousing is already covered at the bottom of the "Corporate structure and marketing" section. We don't need a photo to illustrate it, in my opinion. I think it should stay out, as it looks like we are implying that de-lousing garments was all it was used for, which is not the case. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 06:55, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. No one is denying that Zyklon B had nonlethal uses, but those uses have nothing to do with the infamy of the product. Choosing to illustrate the article with the image of innocent disinfestation apparatus at Dachau would be deliberately putting a gloss on both the chemical and the camp, and that's completely unacceptable. (In policy terms, it's undue weight.) RivertorchFIREWATER 16:09, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

text: "I think you are over-reacting, Rivertorch." -- ad hominem "If I understand Raquel Baranow correctly" -- you don't. "this is not holocaust denial" -- it definitely is.  It's what that user does (and part of why she has been indefinitely banned ... not for the first time; she's been at this for over a decade). -- Jibal (talk) 07:30, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zyklon delousing chambers, proposed new section to article 

message: I'm wondering about this change. First, the edit summary says that "pesticide" could be misconstrued, and I'm not 100% sure I understand that. Second, most (all?) products containing a significant amount of cyanide are potentially poisonous, so it seems almost redundant to say. Third, if the original purpose of the product was pesticide, I think it makes sense to say that. Pinging Roy Bateman. RivertorchFIREWATER 12:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello User:Rivertorch - surely the article does mention its original (mostly discontinued) use as a pesticide further down in the article.   I was rather concerned about the use of 'pesticide' in the context of concentration camps: to spell it out, I suppose that the Nazis considered that Jews and homosexuals were 'pests' (and outrageously such people are still around).  Not quite sure about your second point - why is 'poison' redundant? - it is all down to dosage of course (many fruit in the genus Prunus contain cyanide!).  Brgds Roy Bateman (talk) 13:10, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have undone your change. The word "pesticide" is more accurate than "poison". The product was manufactured as a pesticide and put to use to kill people in Auschwitz and elsewhere. I don't think the reader will be led to believe from this that the people killed in this way were pests. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have further edited the first 2 paras. The product was indeed originally manufactured as a pesticide (this is very adequately explained in the 2nd para), but is notorious for being used by the Nazis for genocide, not pest management.  Conflating the two in these circumstances is highly inappropriate I think.Roy Bateman (talk) 16:58, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the word "pesticide" back to the first paragraph. Two people have objected to its removal so it best stay in unless you can get consensus to take it out. Per the WP:BRD cycle, that's what you are supposed to do when your edit is challenged. The product was created as a pesticide and continued to be used for that purpose until production ceased. It was even used as a pesticide for many years in the United States from early days until they were no longer able to get it in that country (1943). — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 18:53, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I can live with that wording Diannaa - I hope you agree that it is an improvement on the original.  Since it is now obsolete as a pesticide, I have included it under 'Chemical weapons' - and propose a new category: 'Obsolete pesticides' (in my opinion, some WP pages on pesticides are also misleading).  What do you think?  Brgds Roy Bateman (talk) 03:07, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I don't think it's an improvement on the original. Here's the relevant diff. The earlier wording stated precisely and concisely what the Zyklon B was, what it consisted of, its original and legitimate purpose, and where and when it was invented, then immediately notes the reason for its infamy. The new wording calls it a "formulation" (true but unacceptably vague), mentions only one ingredient and does so with two unnecessary adjectives and an adverb, then goes on to place the word "pesticide" in the same sentence that introduces its victims, which arguably heightens the objection that you mentioned to begin with: the linking of the idea of "pests" with those victims. (Of course the linkage is there. Can there be any doubt that the Nazi regime responsible for the atrocities involving Zyklon B considered its victims subhuman?) I guess there's almost always room for improvement, but I still don't seen a clearly articulated reason for making these changes. I'm pretty sure we can find consensus here. I think it would be helpful you'd detail exactly what you think is wrong about the earlier wording. RivertorchFIREWATER 18:12, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Comparing the with the new, I agree that the old wording is better, as it contains details not present in the new version, such as the year and place of creation and a complete list of ingredients. I have restored the old wording as there's at present no consensus for any of these changes. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 19:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

text: So Diannaa: having reached what I thought was a consensus 2 edits ago, you appear to have changed your mind!! ... and by the way, having restored repetition of "cautionary eye irritant and one of several adsorbents such as diatomaceous earth." in the first and second paragraphs does not reflect well on your editorial abilities.To answer User:Rivertorch: I found this page via a link from a featured article on concentration camps and, call me over-sensitive if you will, I still think that the original wording with a high emphasis on 'pesticides' could easily be misused in a racist narrative.  However, this misses the main point which is that Zyklon-B has not been used in the 21st century as a pesticide (correct me if I am wrong) and it is notable for its use in the gas chambers.  I have not checked, but I do not dispute the sequence in the 2nd para. - and note that following the original development as a pesticide, it was used for chemical warfare in WW1.  Subsequent development of Zyklon B provided an easier-to-handle formulation of HCN for the Nazis.  Over-use of the word 'pesticide' in emotive contexts such as this, is also very unhelpful for those of us who have to teach modern pest management. Roy Bateman (talk) 04:20, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Roy Bateman, I'm not sure how best to respond. If I understand you correctly, you believe that noting Zyklon B's original purpose in the lead sentence will somehow enable racist narratives. I don't get that at all. If I thought it were true, I suppose I'd support removing it, but you'll need to be much clearer about how that would work. In any event, I have reverted your latest edit, for which there was not consensus—only your preference for it and Diannaa's saying she "can live with" it. I can live with it, too, but I'd much rather not. I expressed some confidence that consensus could be reached, but that will require some patience on your part, and edit warring will not help matters. (Neither will disparaging a fellow Wikipedian's editing skills. Diannaa is one of our most experienced and capable editors, but no one deserves gratuitous criticism like that.) If you restore your preferred version again, I will request full protection of the article. RivertorchFIREWATER 05:39, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Rivertorch - I am not going to waste any any more time here (and certainly won't be edit warring) on specious arguments with a couple of editors, working under pseudonyms, claiming "consensus". Who are you?  Why is it "gratuitous" to point out that (you as well) are restoring repetition in the introductory paragraphs?  You are twisting my arguments - of course I am not saying this "will somehow enable racist narratives": merely pointing out that there is a risk here and that words should be chosen carefully.  Why is "pesticide" so important to you?  I must leave it to your good taste (and I hope the opinions others, in due course) to reflect on these points. Roy Bateman (talk) 07:31, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, I guess. I confess I'm disappointed that you're unwilling to engage in the usual sort of back-and-forth discussion that can lead to consensus, but that's your choice. I twisted nothing, only asked for clarification, in the same way that I asked many an instructor back in the day (albeit not one of pest management, it's true). In most cases, that process was productive and the instructor didn't consider it a waste of time. Is it possible, I wonder, whether the professional activities to which you allude may be creating a low-level conflict of interest in your editing of this article? As for me, I freely confess that I distrust and dislike synthetic pesticides and, many years ago, I advocated for the curtailing of their use. In part because of my past advocacy, I avoid editing in that topic area. I've made an exception here because I really don't think of this as a pesticide article; Zyklon B is not notable because of its original purpose, and it's no longer manufactured anyway. Beyond that, and anything else I choose to share, who I am is irrelevant: like over 90 percent of Wikipedians, I choose pseudonymity, partly because I think Wikipedia works best when consensus is based on the strength of arguments, not on professional qualifications. Britannica uses the other approach, of course. RivertorchFIREWATER 15:38, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pesticide" or "poison"? 

message: the ig farben had a part from degesch, the zyklon b producer...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:7A:4F0D:2400:CDE6:19BD:9459:A8B (talk) 17:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  carl wurster (BASF) produced zyklon b 

message: Hello,
It will add value to highlight the fact that the US Federal government used Zyklon B on Mexicans along the border.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JAMURNIUX (talk • contribs) 20:23, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That information is already present in the article.— Diannaa (talk) 22:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zyklon B Used on Mexicans 

message: This article contains incorrect information. it states that "they used it to kill roughly 1.1 million people in gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, and elsewhere" However, it neglects to mention that most of the Jews that were killed in the holocaust were in fact killed by Carbon Monoxide Gas, not HCN. For example, the gas chambers at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were Carbon Monoxide chambers not HCN chambers, and it appears that the only chambers that were equipped for HCN / Zyklon-B were those at Auchwitz-Birkenau, Stutthof, Mauthausen, Sachsenhausen, and Ravensbrück. Then there was the euthenasia programe and the Gassing vans which didn't use HCN either. I was unable to find documentation that describes the issue in detail with any of the other camps. See https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/gassing-operations as a good starting point, but this needs to be changed because it posits an inaccurate idea given the generally accepted historical consensus. 108.235.248.227 (talk) 03:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The number 1.1 million includes only those killed using Zyklon B. The total number of Jews killed on the Holocaust was around 6 million. The remainder were killed using carbon monoxide exhaust from diesel engines, shot by the Einsatzgruppen, or killed via other methods. I've added a note about the total number of Jews killed in The Holocaust, but to add details of all the methods of killing at all the camps is too much detail for this article.— Diannaa (talk) 10:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, 108.234.248.227, Lublin-Majdanek did use Zyklon-B in its killing apparatus. So, we get 1.2+ million killed by carbon monoxide at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, then 1.1-1.2 million at Birkenau and Majdanek using Zyklon-B (though this total death toll would also include beating, starvation, exposure, disease, and experimentation deaths). Sacxpert (talk) 02:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Information 

message: Zyklon B needs water or heat to be activated ?- if correct  how was water or heat applied in the  gassing killing  chambers  ? Should this precise information be included ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 09:37, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Hydrogen cyanide, a poisonous gas. All they had to do was open the containers and dump the pellets into the chamber for the toxic gas to be released. "After the doors were shut, SS men dropped Zyklon B pellets through vents in the roof or holes in the side of the chamber. The victims were dead within 20 minutes.[42] "— Diannaa (talk) 13:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

text: In fact the boiling point of this chemical is 78 degrees F. The highest average monthly temperature in Auschwitz, for instance, was 76 degrees F. So there is really some confusion about how exactly this was supposed to work from a scientific perspective. Most of the year it is between 30-50 degrees there, so there is no way the pellets would turn to gas. 2600:8800:2918:A600:4C5E:1154:DAF2:B1ED (talk) 07:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exact procedure or mechanism ? 

message: In the first paragraph the article states that it was used to kill 6 million Jews; later on it states 6 million people, mostly Jews.
I propose changing the first paragraph to match the wording of the latter, as it was not just Jews who met this dreadful fate. 82.23.134.170 (talk) 10:02, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't say it was used to kill 6 million Jews. It says it was used to kill 1.1 million people; I'm not sure why we even need the "A total of around 6 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust" sentence; people can quite well click on The Holocaust for a lot more detail about all of the victims. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 15:11, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victims 

message: There are references to Prussian blue as evidence for the use of Zyklon B. This, too, could use an explanation. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 05:29, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: People can click on the link to Prussian blue for the explanation of the chemical reaction. It's too much detail for this article in my opinion.— Diannaa (talk) 15:17, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prussian blue 

message: Suggest removal of the line "A total of around 6 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust" from the first paragraph. While it's correct information, it's not really relevant given what is already stated in the paragraph. 51.6.213.11 (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather not remove it, because to do so gives some readers the impression that only 1.1 million total were killed. i.e. it provides context.  — Diannaa (talk) 14:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

text: Not done for now: This is actually a controversial edit, so you'll need to discuss first with other editors. Please open a new section here and start a discussion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:53, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 June 2022 

message: "A total of around 6 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust."
Why is this in the introduction?  It fails WP:LEDECITE because no citation for this material is given anywhere else in the article.  It fails MOS:INTRO because it's not mentioned anywhere else in the article at all.  It's off topic, because it's talking about people not killed with Zyklon B — whether Jews or not.  Finally, it's potentially misleading, because the reader could infer that all 1.1 million were Jews, which is either erroneous or a huge assertion that would need detailed sourcing to prove that there wasn't a single exception.  175.39.61.121 (talk) 08:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's general background info, a little off-topic. I have moved it to an explanatory note and added a citation. — Diannaa (talk) 12:27, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Jews killed 

message: In fact the boiling point of this chemical is 78 degrees F. The highest average monthly temperature in Auschwitz, for instance, was 76 degrees F. So there is really some confusion about how exactly this was supposed to work from a scientific perspective. Most of the year it is between 30-50 degrees there, so there is no way the pellets would turn to gas. 2600:8800:2918:A600:4C5E:1154:DAF2:B1ED (talk) 07:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Explanatory note D covers this point.  — Diannaa (talk) 11:58, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chemical Properties - Boiling Point 

message: The third paragraph appears to have no citations at all, and mentions that Zyklon B is apparently still sold under the brand name Cyanosil, however, I cannot find any evidence of this product. 2A0E:1D47:8980:9100:5842:74E9:DD6A:E886 (talk) 02:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the entire article. The lead section summarizes the cited content in the body of the article. See the "Legacy" section. Acroterion (talk) 03:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited paragraph making unlikely claims 

message: It says "muder" which should be changed to "kill" or "killed". No perspective can be shown. Luco4212 (talk) 19:59, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: 
1. Supported by the reliable source.
2. WP:NPOV does not require absolute neutrality, but the presentation of all significant viewpoints. We generally switch from neutral forms such as 'death' or 'kill' to 'murdered' or 'perpetrated' when a competent judicial authority has found the perpetrators guilty of the act in question. The Nuremberg trials met this standard. Melmann 13:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2024