Talk:Suicide of Vince Foster

message: IMPORTANT NOTE
This article, and this talk page, is about the death of Vince Foster.
General biographical material on Foster's life go into Vince Foster, and discussion of their editing into Talk:Vince Foster.
An archive of material about the death of Foster, before this split was done, may be found in Talk:Vince Foster/Archive.
:   Editing is all about decision-making, e.g. "Gee, shall i go go back & proofread for subject/verb agreement, or just fail to sign, so that only fanatical colleagues will notice whose literacy is challenged by writing, uh, important notes?" --Jerzy•t 08:15, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I thought Vince Foster's body was found at Turkey Run Park in Virginia on the George Washington Parkway. It appears to have been developed judging by its current website, but at the time had no facilities. It was an old colonial farm as I recall. I used to pull in there to take a leak when I was stuck in traffic. Never anyone around. Pick a tree, any tree, sort of thing. Perfect place to dump a body. D.L. Exelby 9/12/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.117.83.34 (talk) 10:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fort Marcy Park

message: Wasn't his house broken into and/or his office? No mention in the article here. Ikilled007 11:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The FBI stood outside the door while Hillary and/or her staff committed felony evidence tampering during a homicide investigation (there is no such thing as a "suicide investigation").--66.41.95.121 (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Break In 

message: I believe you can find, on youtube and elsewhere, video of Hillary stating that some of her staff people went into his office and took papers. I also think it should be mentioned if this article is to include all that is know about his death. (72.199.219.10 (talk) 08:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The FBI stood outside the door while Hillary and/or her staff committed felony evidence tampering during a homicide investigation (there is no such thing as a "suicide investigation").--66.41.95.121 (talk) 18:39, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Papers taken 

message: This is a very sensitive subject, and I think its impossible not to have some degree of political bias, but in the spirit of representing both sides of this death, can claims like:
Apart from the Travelgate allegations, no credible evidence or charges were ever brought forward in connection with any of these allegations.
Be cited?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.129.94.190 (talk) 02:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some yo-yo put in the bogus "Apart from the Travelgate allegations" qualifier, which in this context meant "Some propose that Foster was murdered to prevent his revealing information derogatory [...] about [...] Travelgate".  I've yanked it.  Wasted Time R (talk) 04:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The two exhaustive examinations of government evidence in the Foster case are the Hugh Sprunt lecture series (Googlevideo), and Failure of the Public Trust (mentioned above, with link, else find yourself); the Failure site also hosts extensive audio commentary from Miguel Rodriguez, the resigned Starr lead investigator in the homicide investigation who has always maintained a cover-up.--66.41.95.121 (talk) 19:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  One connection that is unexplored is Foster's connection to Leo Wanta. Just search for "Vince Foster+Leo Wanta". I am unsure what to make of that, but it does not look insignificant. 121.209.56.202 (talk) 04:18, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Can This Be Cited?

message: This article identifies Rex Armistead as a reporter.  But when I look at the following news article, he is identified as "a private investigator and former Mississippi state law enforcement officer".
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/03/26news.html
Can anyone find clarification on this?  Also, the Rex Armistead article is still as yet unwritten.
CosineKitty (talk) 16:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Armistead

message: I will now reveal the absolute truth, as revealed to me by God Almighty:  Every official investigation has forthrightly proclaimed it was suicide.  They are often vague about the locale.  I conclude therefore that Vince Foster committed suicide in his office in the White House basement.  (You can make it sound more sinister by saying "beneath the White House".)  His body was moved in an attempt to avoid embarrassment.  It seams Hillary and Co didn't realize that covering up a suicide looks like you're covering up a murder, or they just would have taken their lumps with the truth.
I conclude he did it in the White House, because there was mysterious hubbub at the White House that night, before his body was found in the park, including calls to a (supposedly) non-existent phone number.  I conclude it was in his office, because people tend to commit suicide (and murder) in places where they feel they have some control.  He might have committed suicide in his apartment, but I don't know what would need to be covered up, though Foster's blood on Whitewater or Travelgate papers might provide a motive.
The one thing that is sure is that Foster didn't die where his body was found, because he bled out and there was little blood on the ground.  
I'm not editing the article, because I don't want to get in an edit war.  Others may wish to flesh out this "comspiracy theory" in the article.  Randall Bart    Talk   01:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry that's WP:OR Nil Einne (talk) 23:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

text: So, how did Vince Foster get a gun into the White House?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.73.69.132 (talk) 19:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The truth about Foster's suicide 

message: With any suicide it is customary to get the opinion of the state of mind of the victim from those closest to him. In this case, that would have been Foster's wife, Lisa. But there isn't a single quote in the Wiki article attributed to Lisa Foster. How can that be? The FBI interviewed Lisa. I interviewed Lisa. And yet, not a single clue here as to what would drive such a highly successful young man, on the rise politically and monetarily to suicide. Travelgate? That's a joke. When will the truth of all this come out? Another nine years from now when the Waco files are unsealed?
Here:
The actual suicide (if indeed that was the case) was over the 24 children killed at Waco. And his wife said that was the number one issue on his mind. Travelgate? Use logic here. That was a very minor scandal much like that which is faced by almost any administration. I doubt anyone even remembers Travelgate and or if anyone was ever charged or convicted. On the other hand, the deaths of those children were sealed up for 25 years for National Security reasons. Foster was publicly and privately opposed to sealing such a tragedy which occured on US soil. 
This is excerpted from a contemporaneous article which cited the statements given to the FBI by Foster's widow: 
Foster's widow blames his depression on the massacre of the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, according to the FBI. "Lisa Foster believes that Foster was horrified when the Branch Davidian complex burned. Foster believed that everything was his fault," the FBI wrote of their interview with Lisa Foster. 
A strange form of support for that theory comes in the form of a car burglary. The July 14, 1995 News and Observer reported that White House lawyer Cheryl Mills had her car broken into after preparing for a Senate hearing on Whitewater. In addition to her wallet, the burglar stole a gym bag containing Mills' notes on the Foster affair and on Waco. 
During the 1995 U.S. House hearings on Waco, Texas Rangers disclosed that when they were in dispute with the FBI about the destruction of evidence, someone in the Texas Governor's office gave them Vince Foster's phone number to contact. The hearings revealed that the only document found in Foster's Waco file was a memorandum that Foster was forwarding "Waco, the Big Lie" (a videotape charging government conspiracy) to to the Treasury Department. 
Source: http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/politics/corruption/foster.html 
71.154.3.37 (talk) 14:54, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I too noticed no mention in the entry of Vince Foster's wife's statements that the number one issue on his mind before the time of his suicide was his guilt over Waco. Then I came here to Talk and found mention of Waco. Janet Reno is usually quoted as saying the buck stopped with her on Waco, she took responsibility. But Janet Reno was not USAG when the Waco Raid was carried out 28 Feb 93, nor was she USAG in the early days of the FBI siege. There was no US Attorney General in charge at the Dept of Justice when Waco started: the functions of USAG were being carried out at that time by Rose Law Firm alumni Vince Foster, Webster Hubbell and Hillary Clinton. Some of the decisions at that time (for instance, to go ahead with the raid after knowing the element of surprise had been lost) might very well have been on Vince Foster's mind at the time of his suicide. If the fact that Foster agonized over Waco is not acknowledged, how can the questions about his death be answered, one way or the other? Naaman Brown (talk) 16:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lisa foster claimed that the black revolver in Foster's hand was her husband's gun (which was actually a silver automatic); therefore Lisa cannot be considered a reliable source regarding anything. It is reasonable to assume that she was coerced into saying so, and hence has been coerced into additionally speculating other facets of propaganda regarding her husband's mysterious death.--66.41.95.121 (talk) 19:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suicide: Let's hope that our own deaths warrant more scrutiny and respect 

message: I cannot cite a source of a report by Foster's wife that she knew something was wrong because he was so afraid that she had to get into bed with him and  hold him so he could sleep. 
Intense unattributed fear is one outcome of a Subliminal Distraction exposure mental break. The same level of fear appears in the suicide note of Mark Barton, Atlanta day trader killer. Evidence is available that Barton had Subliminal Distraction exposure but no such information exists for Foster.
I would appreciate a head's up if you have the source for her statement. Visit VisionAndPsychosis.Net and use the Contact Researcher link. 
This problem requires a location or locations for exposure so it can be investigated and confirmed or eliminated. It is possible to interview others who worked with him or interview his wife for the information to confirm this.
I am the Copyright holder for information from my site. 
L K Tucker 24.42.213.45 (talk) 23:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: <sarcasm> I gather this "intense fear" had the same origin as that which prompted her to lie about the color of her husband's silver gun so it would match that of the black "drop" piece photographed next to his corpse. <bronx cheer> ...The day upon which future generations deem Wikepedia as finally "arriving" as a credible factual venue outside of purely scientific disciplines will be arrived at when the most odious of blatant contemporary political cover-ups is finally expunged from its pages -- of which Foster's "suicide" is one of the most prominant, and Litmus, examples.--Mike18xx (talk) 11:21, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Intense fear by Foster reported by his wife

message: Three handwriting experts said the note was a forgery. Why no mention of this?  Thismightbezach (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forgery 

message: With no political axe to grind, I added this para to the lede, purely because I felt it needed lengthening:
:Some have claimed that his body was dumped in the park, following either an assassination or suicide in a location that President Clinton did not want revealed. Much of the evidence for these theories was supplied by right-wing groups, and was discredited by whistleblower David Brock, who had been connected with the anti-Clinton propaganda mission, known as the Arkansas Project.
It was promptly deleted by Froglich, who declared it to be a ‘political diatribe’, when it was simply a summary of the material in the main article.
At that rate, Froglich must have classified most of this article as a ‘political diatribe’ (or POV, as we normally put it), and he should start by deleting those parts. He would then be justified in reverting the lede to reflect the new, shortened article. Valetude (talk) 12:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You claim not to have an axe to grind, yet are attempting to smuggle the loaded POV term "right-wing" into the article. Aside from that, your assertions were erroneous anyway, as the main bodies of "conspiracy theory" research into the Foster case stem from the work of Hugh Sprunt, Hugh Turley, and Miguel Rodgriguez (see the rest of the Talk page above). None of these people are "right wing" politically. (Neither, for that matter, is Michael Rivero, the internet blogger who first noticed the discrepancy between the black revolver in an ABC News photo and the silver automatic the man owned.) *Actual* "right-wing" luminaries such as Rush Limbaugh shilled the Starr Report, as did the rank-and-file Republican political establishment (which basically coughed nervously and then leapt at the salacious Lewinsky thing instead). By the way, Brock went on to play an integral part in the socialist front-group Media Matters, so he was hardly "right-wing" either.--Froglich (talk) 14:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracies in proportion 

message: I am responding via a request for third opinion placed on WP:FTN. I believe this edit (originally added July 28, 2015 with this edit) should be reverted. The material reinserted is cited to http://citizenwells.net/2015/04/29/vince-foster-note-fake-alleged-suicide-note-not-in-fosters-handwriting-three-experts-analyzed-christopher-ruddy-newsmax-october-25-1995-flimsy-investigation-into-note-parallels-investigation-of/ which is not a reliable source and http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/09/15/expanding-on-expert-in-cbs-memo-flap.html which violates WP:SYNTH in that it does not discuss Vince Foster. Claims that the note is not authentic and refutations of those claims need to be documented in reliable secondary sources. - Location (talk) 19:56, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Third opinion

message: I just rewrote the 2nd paragraph of the "conspiracy theory" section after reading it and comparing it to the document it's referenced by, so that it now is more clear and congruous.  However after finishing just now, I realized the subject, Patrick Knowlton, is never before or after mentioned anywhere in the article.  And in that paragraph, he is brought up with zero introduction as to who he is or why he's being talked about.  Who the hell wrote this section originally?? -Laced 47.33.95.202 (talk) 22:05, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You raise a good question.  Patrick Knowlton was a Whitewater grand jury witness that had stopped at Fort Marcy Park where Vince Foster's body was found, at the time that Foster was already officially dead.  Knowlton came forward as soon as the news reported Foster died there to report what he had seen.  Knowlton did not got up into the park and see Foster's body.  He did see an old, early 80's brown Honda in the parking lot with Arkansas license plates.   This was important because it was not the newer 1989 gray Honda owned by the Foster family.  Other witnesses also saw this brown Honda.  FBI agents falsified Knowlton's FBI interview report make it appear he saw Foster"s Honda.  He was later the victim of witness intimidation and sued for violation of his civil rights.  Knowlton was successful in adding 20 pages of evidence of a cover-up as part of the Independent Counsel's Report over the objection of Ken Starr.  A sentence has been added to the article to introduce Knowlton.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Olga1518 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Who TF is Patrick Knowlton

message: 1. Relies heavily on documents supporting author's point of view; while dismissing opposing points of view
2. Ignores questions regarding authenticity of resignation/suicide note
3. General tone of article is dismissive of the possibility of alternate points of view
Rfax99 (talk) 18:07, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article appears to violate Neutral Point of View policy 

message: This article, and this talk page, is about the Death of Vince Foster, not specifically 'suicide'. Therefore its title is most peculiar and should be altered  to the Death of Vince Foster  — Preceding unsigned comment added by James spencer moulson (talk • contribs) 16:13, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that it should be titled "The Murder of Vince Foster".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.137.183.192 (talk) 18:09, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

text: That requires evidence, not rampant and absurd speculation, which is all I've seen so far (along with several claims which are simply false if you take a minute to research them). 81.147.89.173 (talk) 23:12, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subject Title 

message: When did he die.  Where did he die.  How did he die.  Why did he die.  This retarded article doesn't even attempt to answer any of these simple, common sense and basic questions.66.25.171.16 (talk) 21:09, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stupid Article 

message: This article is being edited to hell. It now makes zero sense to a casual reader with nothing but loads of conflicting material. Info needs to be appropriately cited and clarified, as in its current state, it's just a pile of hot garbage.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.175.185.226 (talk) 02:08, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been a pile of hot garbage for over eight years. Locking it would just seal in the flavor.--Froglich (talk) 08:28, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

text: BLP does not apply to people who've been dead over twenty years.Froglich (talk) 01:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It may not apply to the general topic but it certainly does apply to the conspiracy theories section. Which by the way I have changed back to say "Conspiracy theories." Per WP:FRINGE we do not give extra weight to nonsense like that and calling the section "Unanswered questions" is completely and totally undue weight. But back to the original topic of BLP. BLP certainly applies to this article as it discusses still living people. It doesn't matter if the main topic is dead, it matters what else is in the article. --Majora (talk) 02:48, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Be that as it may (I don't particularly care what the section is named), it should be noted that WP:Fringe is mainly concerned with scientific analysis subject to proofs, not political mechanizations, and with both the out-of-seclusion ex-lead investigator in the homicide investigation (Rodriguez, who assertively calls the death a murder in audio interviews) and the person currently most likely to become the next US President (who'll be one of the most notable human being on the planet if he wins) both casting aspersions of a cover-up, this genie isn't going to stay in an uncorked bottle.--Froglich (talk) 08:47, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

text: I am inclined to listen to Attn. Miguel Rodriguez, who was the lead investigator on the case.Froglich (talk) 01:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lock this thing 

message: "A book by Christopher Andersen entitled Bill and Hillary: The Marriage claims that Foster and Hillary Clinton were involved in an affair that led to Foster's death.Book reveals Hillary's 'passionate affair' BBC News August 4, 1999"
In Salon, Jake Tapper writes: "Andersen dishes like a catty high school girl holding forth in the lunchroom, with little corroborating evidence for his claims, implied or otherwise."Tapper, Jake. "The Clinton marriage", Salon, August 26, 1999 Entertainment weekly describes the book as "disenguous" and "[w]ritten to make big headlines and fast money, Bill and Hillary is a prime example of a kind of opportunistic celebrity muckraking – sometimes known as selling people out – that has become junky big business ....", noting Andersen "does that insidious, breezy thing of reconstructing extemporaneous conversations he couldn’t possibly have heard.""Bill and Hillary: The Marriage", Entertainment Weekly, August 20, 1999 According to People, "Andersen, clearly no fan of the First Couple, seizes on sleaze too much and with too little attribution. Titillating, perhaps, but in the end the book is merely banal,...""Pics and Pans Review: 'Bill and Hillary: the Marriage'", People, Vol.52, No.8, August 30, 1999  -And this from a publication for which he used to write. Andersen's books sell well, but so do supermarket tabloids; his just have better binding. Mannanan51 (talk) 01:25, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the sources on this article certainly do not meet our WP:RS standards: A hand-written letter from a judge, a self-published web-site about FBI cover ups. Even when we cover conspiracy theories we need to use reliable secondary sources. --Salimfadhley (talk) 20:29, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this is WP:CHERRYPICKING of primary sources at its finest. The issue with sources was also the subject of a recent inquiry at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 229#Suicide of Vincent Foster. -Location (talk) 23:14, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  RS??? 

message: This article says there were 6 official investigations, but the "Vince Foster" page says 5. Anyone know which it is?69.142.70.108 (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many official investigations? 

message: Perhaps someone with more expertise than I will know what to do with the fact that the Link to Note #14 (Lori Leibovich, "Why Vincent Foster can't rest in peace", Salon.com, May 28, 1998.) is no longer maintained on the Salon.com web site. Thanks! Jgmccue (talk) 15:40, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Link Note #14 

message: I am opening this page because the person named in the subject line asked me to, although I do not understand why this is necessary.  The entire "Suicide of Vince Foster" article is nothing short of a journalistic atrocity.  I made the slightest inprovement at the edges, removing obviously unreliable or outright false information, yet my edit was immediately undone, for reasons that escape me.  I explained my justifications for my rather solid edits exactly where I am supposed to, in the box provided for explaining the justification for edits.  I did run out of space to provide more sources, but I think 5 should be plenty.  In that the information I removed had supplied NO sources, are we not getting this backwards? Vcuttolo (talk) 23:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit-warring doesn't help your cause. If someone reverts your edits, the correct response is to discuss them on the talk page, not to repeatedly try to reinsert them. You've been undone by four editors already. "My edits are right" is not a justification. (WP:EDITWAR) TeraTIX 12:24, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volunteer Marek 

message: The current lede reads
:Deputy White House counsel Vince Foster was found dead in Fort Marcy Park off the George Washington Parkway in Virginia, outside Washington, D.C., on July 20, 1993. His death was ruled a suicide by five official investigations, but remains a subject of conspiracy theories.
Is there any doubt it was suicide? As far as I know, that's completely unambiguous, but this phrasing heavily implies that there's some uncertainty. 
I propose eliminating the weasel-wording in favor of a straightforward statement, as well as perhaps adding some context as to why there's a Wikipedia article about it in the first place. --Calton | Talk 05:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede