Talk:Jewish deportees from Norway during World War II

message: Wikipedia in Norwegian might be able to keep the list. After all, they do have a list of all Norwegian soldiers who have died after World War 2 - something which aint going to happen on Wikipedia English anytime soon.
The place to ask on wikipedia in Norwegian, would be here, . The question in Norwegian can be simply put as: "Er det plass her til denne lista over jøder som ble deportert fra Norge under den andre verdenskrigen"?
Here is a link to the last previous version of "the deportees of Norway" list, .
--85.166.141.237 (talk) 19:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The list has been put on another project at wikisource:List of Jewish deportees from Norway during World War II.—Ryulong (竜龙) 19:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

text: I accepted this suggestion from Ryulong in good faith, but it apparently was not offered in good faith, as he know thinks the list shouldn't have been in commons, either. --Leifern (talk) 06:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not my fucking fault the list was deleted from WikiSource because they have different standards. It's been moved back to Wikipedia and it's located at List of Jewish deportees from Norway during World War II. I don't understand why it's so important to have a list of the names of every Jewish person deported from Norway during the German occupation.—Ryulong (琉竜) 10:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions for having the list rescued and thereafter possibly used as an external link or other type of non-reference

message: Below I have quoted text that has been formatted as references, which I have removed because they seem to be discussions (or something else) rather than citations/references.
(If two sources have different numbers (or recounts) on issues, than we have ways of citing each notable source.)
"Some discrepancies about the numbers remain. For example, German documents related to the transit of prisoners on the Donau indicate that 530 were deported from Oslo, whereas the list compiled by Ottosen (1992) indicates that 534 were on board, but this includes Helene Johansen and Mirjam Kristiansen, who were deported on the Donau, but on another date. Kai Feinberg, who was a prisoner on the Donau, was ordered to compile a list of prisoners at the time, and his recollection was that there were 532 on board. Mendelsohn allows that some individuals may have been counted twice, others may have been omitted. The list provided here is based on Ottosen's list, with annotations where these are available. It has been checked for possible duplicates based on name and date of birth. In most sources, the number of survivors is commonly cited as 26; Ottosen (1992) lists 26 individuals as survivors, but omits Harry Meyer, who was captured in the context of the Kvarstad incident, and Robert Savosnick, probably due to an error on his part; as Savosnick is listed as a survivor in the master of list of deportees. This list includes all those who the Nazi authorities considered Jewish. A few of these did not consider themselves Jewish. None of the available literature seeks to ascertain which of the victims were or were not Jewish according to halacha."--85.166.141.237 (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am reviewing all your edits to this article, most of which seem to be attempts at Holocaust revisionism. These are explanatory notes that are entirely appropriate in references. Leifern (talk) 08:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Complying with WP:IINFO in my opinion is not Holocaust revisionism. He is not stating that it never happened. He is not downplaying what happened. He has simply removed an entirely unnecessary (by English Wikipedia inclusion standards) list of the 700 plus men, women, and children who were killed in the camps.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Notability guidelines do not apply in this context, and WP:IINFO restricts "indiscriminate" collection of information. Such a list is not indiscriminate. The anonymous editor has made other edits that make it clear he/she is a Holocaust revisionist. Leifern (talk) 11:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This list is indiscriminate. It lists every single person from Norway who was sent to the death camps. The only thing that is not indiscriminate about it is the fact that you restrict it to only those who fall under the umbra of this subject.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That makes absolutely no sense. "Indiscriminate" means "not marked by careful distinction." If you are going to delete this list, then you have to delete every mention of a murder victim who was not notable for any reason except being a victim. Look at any article on mass murderers, and you will see that the names of their victims are mentioned. What seems to cause a problem for the two of you is that there are so many that it takes up so much space in this non-paper Wikipedia. Leifern (talk) 11:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The English Wikipedia is not supposed to be the Norwegian Holocaust Memorial. Homocide victims are notable. However, individual genocide victims are not. It is most certainly indiscriminate information by Wikipedia's count to list every single Jewish person of Norwegian citizenry who got sent to the death camps.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:43, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

text: That is not indicative of any sort of practice on Wikipedia, while WP:IINFO is a policy. Russavia gave you a good option on your talk page to place all of the names and other minutae about the Norwegian Jews sent to Auschwitz and the other camps to the WikiSource project instead.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  References/citations 

message: The following first sentence is non-informative,  unencyclopedic, non-notable and POV ("relatively complete") — therefore removed from article:
"Because the Norwegian police and German authorities kept careful records of these victims, researchers have been able to compile relatively complete information about the deportees.Some discrepancies about the numbers remain. For example, German documents related to the transit of prisoners on the Donau indicate that 530 were deported from Oslo, whereas the list compiled by Ottosen (1992) indicates that 534 were on board, but this includes Helene Johansen and Mirjam Kristiansen, who were deported on the Donau, but on another date. Kai Feinberg, who was a prisoner on the Donau, was ordered to compile a list of prisoners at the time, and his recollection was that there were 532 on board. Mendelsohn allows that some individuals may have been counted twice, others may have been omitted. The list provided here is based on Ottosen's list, with annotations where these are available. It has been checked for possible duplicates based on name and date of birth. In most sources, the number of survivors is commonly cited as 26; Ottosen (1992) lists 26 individuals as survivors, but omits Harry Meyer, who was captured in the context of the Kvarstad incident, and Robert Savosnick, probably due to an error on his part; as Savosnick is listed as a survivor in the master of list of deportees. This list includes all those who the Nazi authorities considered Jewish. A few of these did not consider themselves Jewish. None of the available literature seeks to ascertain which of the victims were or were not Jewish according to halacha."
(A note that is attached to this text: )
My comment: That Norwegian police and German authorities maintained records is not notable.
That these records exist to a certain degree, is not notable. (History books and articles about history are written using sources like those mentioned.)
That there is notable info in these records, I find highly likely. In those cases, there are/will be instances where these can/will be used as citations in our article. If it is accompanied with text that demonstrates notability.--85.166.141.237 (talk) 11:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "relatively complete information about the deportees" 

message: Is the following name more appropriate than the current? 
*Deportation of Jewish individuals from Norway during World War II
*Deportation of Jews from Norway during World War II
*Deportation of allegged Jews from Norway during World War II--85.166.141.237 (talk) 11:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming 

message: I have moved som text out of the lead paragraph, because I feel that the text belongs in a different section. (It is not possible to put the whole article, into the lead paragraph!) 
:Well, here's the thing: the introduction is supposed to summarize and set the stage for the article. You have been deleting section after section that you didn't like, and then you complain that the introduction is too long? Leifern (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving text out of the lead paragraph

message: [Text written by user:85.165.229.54: "And please be aware that even if there is a reference, there is no one particular article text that is "the one and only correct article text".]
:What does that mean? You're not quoting me here. Leifern (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: What does that mean? You're not quoting me here.

message: Leifern has a good picture from the  Akershus pier (Akershuskaia) in Oslo — the article needs more pictures relating to the article's subject. --85.165.229.8 (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The most famous picture from the deportations is by Georg Fossum, but it is under copyright. The picture I uploaded to the commons was also taken close to the time the Donau left the pier. It is relevant to mention that it at least is taken late in fall and in the evening to give the reader a sense of approximately what it looked like there. It's notable for that reason, not because it's an anniversary. But we might as well mention that it is taken on that date. Certainly, the commons wants a precise date and time. Leifern (talk) 19:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures — more are needed; the wording of text under picture from the Akershus pier (Akershuskaia) in Oslo 

message: The following text needs improvement,
"View of the pier in Oslo where the deportations took place, taken 26 November 2009, 67 years after the largest deportation"
What about saying 
*"View of the pier in Oslo, taken 67 years after the deportation". (The exact date of your taking the picture is not notable enough for the main article, I would say.)
*"View of the pier in Oslo, where the deportees were transferred onto ships during 1942-1944. (Picture taken in 2009)"--85.165.229.8 (talk) 13:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The most famous picture from the deportations is by Georg Fossum, but it is under copyright. The picture I uploaded to the commons was also taken close to the time the Donau left the pier. It is relevant to mention that it at least is taken late in fall and in the evening to give the reader a sense of approximately what it looked like there. It's notable for that reason, not because it's an anniversary. But we might as well mention that it is taken on that date. Certainly, the commons wants a precise date and time. Leifern (talk) 19:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The wording of text under picture from the Akershus pier 

message: ==="Between 28 and 34 of these survived"===
Did only "Between 28 and 34" survive the deportation? 
Or did only "Between 28 and 34" survive WW2 ?--85.165.229.8 (talk) 13:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited the text to make it abundantly clear. But it was pretty clear to begin with. Leifern (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text that aint good enough for an encyclopedia 

message: Did only "Between 28 and 34" survive the deportation? 
Or did only "Between 28 and 34" survive WW2 ?--85.165.229.8 (talk) 13:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited the text to make it abundantly clear. But it was pretty clear to begin with. Leifern (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Between 28 and 34 of these survived"

message: Opinion pieces, even good and well-researched ones like Aslak Nore's, are not generally reliable for historical facts if there are other sources to rely on. In this case, Norge got his information from sources that are available to us, and may even have included this article. As it is, there are three points to keep in mind:
* The J stamps were in the individuals' identity cards, and in some they were also forced to accept the middle names of "Sara" or "Israel" to indicate that they were Jewish
* The J stamps were one in a series of measures against the Jewish population in Norway, that all escalated to the point of the deportation. 
* In fact, the Norwegian police were not ordered to arrest anyone with a J stamp in their identity cards but rather everyone on their lists of Jews and suspected Jews. 
All this well documented in several sources, including the Norwegian governmental commission on restitution, research done by the Holocaust Center and other researchers, Mendelsohn, etc. 
Leifern (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: J-stamped passports and Aslak Nore's op ed

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Jewish deportees from Norway during World War II. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928081504/http://www.hvitebusser.no/Webdesk/netblast/pages/index.html?id=117729 to http://www.hvitebusser.no/Webdesk/netblast/pages/index.html?id=117729
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120315115128/http://mediabase1.uib.no/krigslex/h/h6.html to http://mediabase1.uib.no/krigslex/h/h6.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:21, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified