Talk:Han van Meegeren

message: Any info on what became of van Meegeren's paintings? They still must be something to look at, if they fooled the experts, and certainly they are a terrific historical curiosity. -R. fiend 01:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Where are they now?

message: The sentence "Christ With The Adultress was found in the Austrian salt mine by Allied forces, and led to Van Meegeren's arrest" should state what crime van Meegeren was arrested for.71.224.204.167 15:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that you are right. The provanance of the Cavalier at Wallace proves that their painting could not be a van Meegeren forgery. I have edited the page to reflect this. --DO11.10 17:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving the article 

message: You could add that there exist two recently published books
1. Han Van Meegeren Masterforger by Frederik H. Krerueger (in Dutch, but translation in preparation)
Amsterdam 2004   
2. The Deception (in English) by Frederiik H. Kreuger
A novel which follows Van Meegeren's life for 95% and ends with a short history on his real life
Rijswijk/De Haag 2005    
This remark added by the author, F.H. Kreuger.
:Dear Mr. Kreuger, I can't find your first book on Amazon or anywhere... if it has pictures, I would like to see it :( Ashibaka tock 15:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Van Meegeren 

message: I am working on an English translation of the fabulous German article on Han van Meegeren. I expect that this translation will vastly improve this article and provide a much more comprehensive look at his life. I expect to complete the translation shortly.--DO11.10 19:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvement and Expansion 

message: This article, overall, is superb.  However, if there is one thing that needs to be improved, it is that the introduction is much too long -- it does not need to go into so much detail, since that is what the article is going to do. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: DO11.10 deserves a round of applause for an excellent job cutting the introduction down while keeping it informative and readable.  Nice work, DO! -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aw shucks, thanks. I have changed several other things within the article, as per the suggestions of peer reviewers. Do you have any other suggestions?--DO11.10 03:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  condensation of introduction 

message: I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have quick-failed the article due to a lack of inline citations. The article is very comprehensive, which is excellent to see. There are a few inline citations found throughout the article, but a lot more need to be added due to the amount of information and the length of the article. Entire sections throughout the article are not referenced. Go through the article and for every statement you think that may be questioned about its verifiability, then add an inline citation after it. Once you have addressed these issues and looked over the other criteria, consider renominating.  If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate review at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 18:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA failed

message: After misinterpreting the inline citations due to use of Harvard referencing, I am reviewing the article again. Please address the following issues and I will pass the article.
#"was a Dutch painter, and art-restorer," I think the comma should be removed after "painter". 
#"He had masterfully replicated the styles and colours of the artists he copied..." "Masterfully" may be seen as POV, please reword. changed to "had so well"
#"These crimes threatened the death penalty; and so van Meegeren fearfully confessed to the forgery, he then sought to exonerate himself by painting another “Vermeer” from his jail cell." Move the semicolon to after "forgery".
#"On 12 November 1947 van Meegeren..." Wikilink full dates. The next occurrence is in the next sentence. Go through the rest of the article and wikilink the rest (including the infobox).
#"Korteling had been greatly inspired by Johannes Vermeer". "Greatly inspired" doesn't seem encyclopedic, consider rewording. removed "greatly"
#"Unfortunately, his father did..." Don't use "unfortunately". 
#"In the summer 1914 van Meegeren moved..." "In the summer of 1914"
#"He completed the diploma examination at the Royal Academy of Art in The Hague, receiving his diploma, in drawing, on August 4, 1914." Remove the comma after "diploma" and "drawing". 
#Add a wikilink for his salary of "75 guldens" to Dutch gulden. 
#"Although he had not passed the portrait-painting section of his diploma examination in 1914, he now dedicated himself to portraiture, as it served to earn him the most money" Add a wikilink for portraiture. 
#"Van Meegeren felt that his genius had been misjudged," In prior occurrences where sentences started with his last name, "van" was not capitalized, but it is here. I don't know what the exact rule is for capitalizing "van", but choose which one is best and stick with it. You may have to go through the whole article to see that it is uniform. The next instance I noticed was two paragraphs later.-I did some checking, apparently with the first name it is Han van Meegeren, but when used alone the name should be Van Meegeren, I have changed this to be consistent throughout.
#"Vermeer had not been particularly well-known until the beginning of the twentieth century, his works were both scarce, only about 35 of Vermeer's works have survived, and valuable." Add a semicolon after "century". 
#"Another factor that may have influenced his choice of Vermeer was that during WWII most of Vermeer’s actual works were in protective storage and were unavailable for comparison with van Meegeren's forgeries." Add an inline citation for this. 
#"for 550,000 guilders ($300,000 or about $4M today)." Spell out million. 
#"In November 1944, van Meegeren moved to Amsterdam, where he took up residence in the exclusive Keizersgracht 321 (Boissevain, 1996:233)" This sentence is missing a period. 
#"He used this money to purchase a large amount of real estate, as well as works of art, and to further his luxurious life-style." There shouldn't be a hyphen between lifestyle, unless you are using another region of English (I'm using American). If you are, ignore this suggestion.  The article is written in British English so it should probably remain.
#"Niedl later sold it to Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering for 1.65 million guilders ($625,000 or $7 Million today." Million shouldn't be capitalized. 
#"Göring wasn't too concerned about the money, however, since he paid in counterfeit currency." Is the Bailey reference in the next sentence covering this statement as well? If not, add an inline citation. (Removed sentence)
#"Several experts were wary of van Meegeren’s tale of the "Vermeer", so between July and September, 1945, in the presence of 6 witnesses; a Vermeer expert, a photographer and four police officers, van Meegeren painted his last forgery, Jesus among the Doctors." Reword to "Several experts were wary of van Meegeren’s tale of the "Vermeer", so between July and September 1945, in the presence of 6 witnesses (including a Vermeer expert, a photographer, and four police officers), van Meegeren painted his last forgery, Jesus among the Doctors." 
#"Over a two year period," Add a hyphen between two year. 
#"The urn will remain at the cemetery until at least 2008." Add an inline citation for this. Also, why until 2008, is it going to be moved somewhere else? (removed the bit about the urn, it was in the original German without citation, but I couldn't verify, I did find a cite his burial place though)
#"When Coremans refused, van Beuningen sued him, alleging that Coremans’ wrongful branding of The Last Supper II diminished the value of his “Vermeer” and asking for compensation of £500,000 (about $1.3 Million or about $10 Million today.[3])" Million shouldn't be capitalized. 
#"It is difficult to accurately describe the life of Han van Meegeren because, by definition, he led a conspiratorial life." This statement doesn't seem encyclopedic, but more an ending sentence in an article. Consider rewording, unless you think it should remain. I've removed the sentence entirely. 
#"His hero like status" Maybe reword, might be POV. If not, add a hyphen between hero and like. changed to "new found popularity"
#"A Dutch opinion poll conducted in October of 1947 placed Han van Meegeren’s popularity second in the nation, behind only the Prime Minister's." Add wikilink for the Dutch Prime Minister.
#"Han van Meegeren remains one of the most ingenious art counterfeiters of the 20th century." If this sentence is going to use ingenious, then it is going to have to be immediately followed by an inline citation.
#"So, in an amusing turn of events, not only have some “Vermeers” been forged by Han van Meegeren, some “van Meegerens” have actually been copied by a new generation of forgers." Add an inline citation for this.-removed, couldn't verify.
Most of the above suggestions are really easy to fix, and there are some requests for adding inline citations. Please fix the above issues within seven days and I'll pass the article. If you have any questions or when you are done, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 22:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA on hold

message: I have passed this article according to the GA criteria. A few minor things that still need to be fixed:
#"In 1907 Van Meegeren, compelled by his fathers demands", add an apostrophe for "father's"
#"75 Dutch gulden" For this I meant 75 guldens; sorry, I wasn't clearer.
Other than this, the article looks great. Again, I'm sorry for failing the article the first time, as it turns out it was quite a mistake! Keep improving the article and make sure that all newly added information is properly sourced. If you have the time, please consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the current drive to remove the backlog. Each new reviewer helps to cut down on the waiting time for nominations. Keep up the good work, the article was an interesting read! --Nehrams2020 04:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA passed

message: It is extremely unlikely that Van Meegeren "owned nightclubs" when he was arrested. Before the liberation of Holland there was a curfew where nobody was allowed in the streets between 10 at night (sometimes 8 o'clock) and 4 in the morning. And people were starving. What use of nightclubs? After the liberation nightclubs soon appeared but Van Meegeren was arrested within two weeks after the liberation. Moreover, Van Meegeren was extremely rich after all his forgeries, so why exploit a nightclub? The only explanation I can think of is that among the many houses Van Meegeren owned (he invested his capital in houses, stocks, diamonds, etc) one was used after a while as a nightclub. The refence to a nightclub is by Schueller: but this gentelman wrote a study about recognizing the fakesof Van Meegeren, he didn't make a study of the life of Van Meegeren. The other reference is by Godley who did excellent work when writing his biography. However he never met Van Meegeren personally, so a remark about a nightclub can easily have come to him by way of rumours. The remark on owning a nightcub shall thus been deleted I'll wait for an answer for some time, if none is coming I'll delete this passage.==
--Primasz (talk) 09:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You've made some good points. I don't have a problem with removing nightclubs statement.--DO11.10 (talk) 19:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Van Meegeren owned no nightclubs

message: I’ am the Dutch biographer of Van Meegeren, Frederik H. Kreuger. Recent research has shed new light on the arrest of Van Meegeren and subsequent events. I published the results in 2004 and 2006 in Dutch and recently in English in "A New Vermeer, Life and Work of Han van Meegeren", 2007, publisher uitgeverij@quantes.nl in Holland. I’ll try now to correct the details of Van Meegeren’s arrest in the article about Van Meegeren. As a newcomer to Wikipedia I tell this in order to show that I’ am not vandalizing the article but genuinely try to correct it.
If after a while the Wikipedia community has recognized the honesty of my intentions, I’ll have some more corrections to make, partly because I know the country and the language of Van Meegeren somewhat better, partly because I have found more new sources. Could an experienced Wikipedia-user reply to this entry or does Wikipedia not work in that way? Primasz 14:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First off, I very much appreciate your approach here. I essentially translated this article from the German wiki-article, but based some passages on  several English language sources. I was also the one who reverted your prior changes. Not because I thought you were vandalizing the article, but because you removed cited passages and citations and inserted some POV statements. Clearly you know a lot about the subject here, and I would welcome a discussion of changes. These cannot be based on original research, but since you have published the material it should be okay. Can you include the new information without removing current sources? Also, I have not read this book, and I cannot seem to find it anywhere based on the ISBN, I would love to read it though. It would be immensely helpful to me to know what kind of information you plan to include or exclude. Cheers from a fellow VM buff!--DO11.10 00:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your reaction, for me as a newcomer to Wikipedia it is difficult to feel my way around. I would much appreciate to have a discussion with you via e-mail, there's a lot to discuss about the results of my research and the correct to enter these in the Wikipedia article. Please mail me at primasz@freeler.nl and we could start. Primasz 14:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

text:  Further answer to DO10.11, I lately made a survey of the primary and secondary sources of the know-how contained in the books about Van Meegeren. I would like to send you this; at what e-mail address could I do that? (I didn't yet receive mail yet). Or could you mail me at primasz@freeler.nl? Primasz (talk) 11:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: new information on Van Meegeren's arrest

message: The article states that Van Meegeren "was released on bail" after which he continued to paint.
However, "bail" does not exist in Holland, so the words "on bail" shall be omitted. I'll do that within a few days, unless anybody protests.
Primasz (talk) 18:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bail

message: I just noticed a series of articles in de NYTimes about VanMeegeren:
,
 and
.
It gives some new insights as, apparently, he adored hitler. I am not an art contributor, so I leave it to someone else to look into this. --VanBurenen (talk) 20:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New insights 

message: ====A contradictory report by a Dutch expert on the alleged dedication of Van Meegeren to Hitler:====
(according to the cited interview of J. Lopez by E. Morris in New York Times)
The book Teekeningen 1 by Han van Meegeren (1942) is said to have been found by the journalist Jan Spierdijk, correspondent of the Dutch Communistic Journal De Waarheid (Waarheid is Dutch for Pravda). It would have been found in the completely bombed and burned down Chancellery of Hitler in Berlin. The dedication to Hitler was, according to Spierdijk, written on the fly-leaf of the book Teekeningen 1. The circumstances of this find have, however, never been cleared and have raised many questions.
The first publication of this find was in De Waarheid of 11th July 1945, called “Once the pride of Berlin, now a ruin”. The second publication was in De Waarheid of 6th November 1945 where an alleged photo-reproduction of the fly-leaf and cover of this book were added. The book itself, however, had vanished and was never seen again. It is thus impossible to have an impartial and critical judgment of this question.
An unknown hand-writing expert is quoted to have judged that the (detached) letters of the dedication were written by one and the same person who would have been Han van Meegeren. 
Van Meegeren denied that the dedication was by his hand. He told that about 150 copies of his book had been sold with his autograph on the fly-leaf and that any Nazi-friendly buyer could have added a dedication.
The “Ereraad voor de Kunsten” (Purging Council) who commanded the graphologic investigation has never pronounced a verdict against Van Meegeren. From the minutes of this Council it follows that no indications were found that Van Meegeren would have been politically incorrect. Moreover, a written report of the hand-writing expert is missing.
In the judicial process of Van Meegeren (on account of his forged paintings) a dedication to Hitler, or other possible political mistakes, were not mentioned. This follows from the text of the recently (2009) retrieved sentence, hearings of witnesses, reports of experts, etc. of this process (A.H. Huussen, Cahiers uit het Noorden XX, Zoetermeer, Holland 2009. A copy has been sent to the Library of Congress).
Or to quote an English source: Lord Kilbracken, the first biographer of Van Meegeren came already in 1967 to the conclusion that there was no truth in the allegation of a Führer-dedication by Han van Meegeren (Van Meegeren Masterforger, New York 1967, page 160) .
Conclusion: from an uncertain dedication like this, no far-going conclusions may be drawn regarding the political views of Han van Meegeren. The arguments given by Lopez in the interview are biased and not well documented, but based on talk from hearsay.
Zoetermeer, Holland, 25th July 2009
Professor A. H. Huussen, historian
Emeritus professor University of Groningen
====Consequence for Wikipedia====
It is clear from the above that the section “Teekeningen 1 discovery” about an alleged Führer-dedication in the Van Meegeren article is highly controversial. This is not in accordance with  the principles of Wikipedia. The section shall therefore, I’m afraid, be deleted.
What are the opinions of other Wikipedians?
Primasz (talk) 08:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial section: ''Teekeningen 1 discovery'' 

message: It is clear from the above that the section “Teekeningen 1 discovery” about an alleged Führer-dedication in the Van Meegeren article is highly controversial. This is not in accordance with  the principles of Wikipedia. The section shall therefore, I’m afraid, be deleted.
What are the opinions of other Wikipedians?
Primasz (talk) 08:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Consequence for Wikipedia

message: Did he ever claim any of these paintings were actually Vermeer or did the buyers simply assume they were based on the style of the paintings?  Does that make him a forger or the original artist?  Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 05:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  His "Vermeers"