Talk:Shabbat

message: Having considered the state of Sabbath articles closely, I think there is still one topic to create, namely Biblical Sabbath. Currently this phrase redirects to the summary article "Sabbath" even though that article includes many other Sabbath adaptations that are not Biblical. A new article would compile the Biblical references to Sabbath in a thorough, orderly way, and give all the main viewpoints and interpretations of each passage (compare creation according to Genesis, figs in the Bible, wells in the Bible, etc.). None of the current articles do either of these, because they are quite rightly focused on Sabbath in this or that mainstream viewpoint. However, the notion of "Sabbath as the Bible describes it, without making judgments in favor of any viewpoint" is a topic frequently discussed but lacking. No need to warn me about POV risks, because I am already on duty policing those. It is just my observation that, very often, a WP editor wants to refer just to that notion, "Biblical Sabbath with essentially no POV", and has no recourse to do so (as noted, the summary "Sabbath" article is not Biblically limited, and the Biblically based articles give only one POV each). Particularly, there are many links to "Sabbath" that should very clearly, in context, be directed to Biblical Sabbath, and permitting the weaker link is suboptimal and easily remediable. Also, many of the IP contributors to "Sabbath" would do better to have such a separate article; and some of the debates about where to put this or that apologetic (if at all) would be more readily solved if there were a central article. I will be happy to move this forward, but I wanted to get a couple more opinions first, to confirm my belief that this is a good division of topics. Cross-posted to Shabbat, Sabbath in Christianity, and Sabbath in seventh-day churches. JJB 05:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Sabbath spinout 

message: We simply must cover the international date line debate, which is highly relevant from various perspectives, and one of the great debates in modern halacha. This should be either in this article or in a separate split-off. JFW | T@lk 13:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  International date line 

message: Can you elaborate more on how the end-of-Sabbath line is drawn? Three stars as end-of-Sabbath - are they specific named stars or just any stars? What happens on cloudy, starless nights? Polar nights? TIA, NVO (talk) 19:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Three stars is symbolic. Shabbat is over when it is dark enough to see several stars. It doesn't matter which ones. Anyway, the rabbis figure out the exact "end of Shabbat" times a year in advance, and all Jewish calendars supply that information, so you don't actually have to look for the stars. And, as you say, it could be cloudy.--Gilabrand (talk) 16:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Three stars

message: Should there be a bit of discussion? for example these beliefs are accepted as historic artefacts from a different era - like those concerning safe eating in the desert, clean feet etc. It would add balance to the article to find references to some discussions on the relevance of this stuff to modern life.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.48.235 (talk) 16:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion??

message: this line Shabbat is the seventh day of the Jewish week and a day of rest in Judaism. Shabbat is observed from sundown Friday until the appearance of three stars in the sky on Saturday night. The exact time, therefore, differs from week to week and from place to place, depending on the time of sunset at each location. 
What are the rules north of the arctic circle, if it is night time always, or conversly day time always. Seems like a dumb question but if there is an actual rule for such a sitiuation it may be informative in the article. I really doubt there is an actual rule for this. Smitty1337 (talk) 22:00, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting question. I found this site that addresses the question rather extensively. From a quick skim, one recommendation is that Jews in those areas observe the shabbat times of the location they were in before traveling north of the Arctic Circle. Equazcion (talk) 22:08, 14 Feb 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious question: not likely worthy of mention in article though 

message: I've removed this para from the article because it's both untrue and unsourced:
The principle of weekly Sabbath has also been adopted, instituted, or modified in other beliefs: compare the Babylonian calendar, the Buddhist uposatha, the Islamic jumu'ah, the pagan sabbat, the Bahá'í calendar, the Unification Church Ahn Shi Il, and the parody-religion Pastafarian weekend.
I don't know about all of these religions, but I do know it's untrue for the Babylonians and Buddhists. Buddhists don't give any particular note to Sundays or to any other day of the week. As for the Babylon, the influence works the other way round - it was the Jews who adopted Sabbath-observance from the Babylonians. The whole thing is unsourced in any case. Either find sources for each of these, or leave it out. PiCo (talk) 02:29, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again. The sources are in the individual articles, of which this is a summary. Your bald assertion of who adopted Sabbath from whom is not backed up by those sources. Further, the Buddhist case is a lunar week (usually 7 or 8 days), also related to early Sabbath. Your statement "I do know it's untrue" is not any more sourced than the text you deleted. Also, please don't repeat your deleting (and imbalancing the POV, toward Judeo-Christian in this case) when another party undoes it: that is contrary to WP:BRD recommendations and is also considered warring. On this article I'll wait to see who else chimes in. JJB 02:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: JJB, the Buddhist cycle isn't based on 7 days, it's based on the phases of the moon - full moon, new moon, and half way between. A 7 day cycle, in contrast, gives exactly 28 days, which means it soon gets out of sync with the lunar cycle (which has 28.25 days). Lunar cycles are based on the fact that the moon is there in the sky - everyone all over the world can see and use it, and they do; no connection with the biblical sabbath is needed, and there's no question of it being an adaptation by one culture from another. As for the babylonian connection, that's in the literature - I think you need to read more widely. PiCo (talk) 03:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You have just said that the Biblical mathematical week was adopted from the Babylonian lunar week, and also that the lunar week is unquestionably unrelated to the mathematical week. You have also just said that the lunation of 29.53+ days is actually 28.25 days. JJB 03:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The situation is more complicated than that. I'll find some sources for you. (And yes, there are 28 and a quarter days in a lunar month).PiCo (talk) 04:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say the article as a whoile looks pretty good - it could do with some more sources, perhaps, but the topic seems to be well covered. Now that the references to the Babylonians and, of all people, Buddhists, are gone I have no problems with it. But I promised you some sources, which you can use as and if you please: The Mercer Bible Dictionary, about p.776 for the entry on Sabbath; the Oxford Bible Commentary p105 has a brief description of history and the Sabbath and seems to say that it's no longer held that the Jews got it from the Babylonians, so it seems I was wrong on that point. It might be useful to use these and similar modern sources to re-do the small section on the history of Sabbath, but that's up to you. Thanks for removing the piece that offended me (mostly the Buddhism reference) PiCo (talk) 05:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Adaptations

message: The entire "Further reading" section is real marginal and perhaps should go; there are probably thousands of books about Shabbat history, practices, etc; what's so special about these? --jpgordon::==( o ) 02:44, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree wholeheartedly. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 03:39, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Done. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 02:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Agree. The important sources should be cited. JFW | T@lk 12:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further reading section 

message: Shouldn't there be some mention of Non-Jews not being permitted to keep Shabbos? And that someone who publicly desecrated Shabbos cannot be counted in a minyan?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.252.3.157 (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  non-Jews

message: What the heck does this mean?
:Unlike on Shabbat day, one can partake in all the suggested activities on Friday night. There is an idea that the Jews who partake in Shabbat should not only have Shabbat, but they also make Shabbat. Through this opportunity to do all the encouraged activities, Friday night often is when a Jew will "make" Shabbat.[15]
:With this idea in mind one might also assert that Friday night is not just a large part of Shabbat, but really is a full half of it.
It doesn't make much sense to me. --194.176.105.147 (talk) 15:24, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever it means, ??????, the footnote "[15]" should be in main text as a bracketed primary source "(Shabbat 119b)" not masquerading as a WP:RS "[15]". In ictu oculi (talk) 00:26, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  That would go against practice in all Judaism-related articles. In addition, where did you dig up such a rule? Debresser (talk) 01:41, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

text: I also don't understand what this is supposed to mean. But it seems to me it was rightfully removed. Debresser (talk) 01:42, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Friday night section 

message: It looks as if this article title may not be following WP naming policy, or WP:RS such as www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12962-sabbath etc? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about the Jewish Sabbath. We have a separate article on Sabbath. Shabbat is a term widely used in English language texts to refer to the Jewish Sabbath and is therefore appropriate here.  See WP:PRECISION.--agr (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Arnold, thanks, yes of course, but "Jewish Sabbath" (hence WP:PRECISION) is English, that doesn't bear directly on WP:EN; is it possible that you or someone else could run a Google Scholar or Google Books advanced search to demonstrate that "Shabbat" is more common than "Sabbath" in English-language WP:RS when relating to Judaism? It may well be that is, but the Jewish Encyclopedia suggests that it isn't, or at least wasn't in 1911. Anyone willing to check this? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:naming conventions (use English)]]

message: In the section "Technology in the service of Shabbat" the article mentions a "resistor network" to store energy from elevators. I get the general idea, but resistor networks don't store energy. I presume what you are talking about here is some kind of big capacitor or rechargable battery, or maybe even an enormous flywheel. This is a point about physics, not Judaism, but it could stand some reconsideration. Rob Burbidge (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resistor Network 

message: I added a link under the 'Prohibited activities' section to the 'Activities prohibited on Shabbat' page because for some reason it took me ages to find that particular page from this one and it also seemed to make sense. This is the first time I've edited wikipedia, so hope that was ok and sorry about having to correct what I was doing a couple of times :=]
118.149.61.13 (talk) 02:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to 'Activities prohibited on Shabbat' 

message: *REQUEST: Please see the centralized discussion about this subject, relating to sources, links, content, etc at Talk:Chayei Sarah (parsha). Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion about the 54 Shabbat parshas 

message: * Could someone correct the Turkish interwiki please. It is linked to a wrong page. The correct one is tr:Şabat. Thank you.--Abuk SABUK (talk) 18:20, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Already done.  After I merged these together yesterday, a bot went and (incorrectly) changed. it.  I guess they're still ironing the wrinkles out over at Wikidata.  StevenJ81 (talk) 18:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  interwiki 

message: Hebrew: Shabbat, Yiddish: Shabbos, English: Sabbath. - Benjamin Franklin 75.74.157.29 (talk) 22:08, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  (English: Sabbath) 

message: Although the Yiddish pronunciation is Shabbos/Shabbis, it is written as שבת‎, the same spelling as in Hebrew.
:Well, yes and no.  In the real Yiddish-speaking world (pre-war Europe, for example, and even modern charedi communities), that's correct.  But according to YIVO standardized spelling rules, it's probably the other way.  I wouldn't bother fussing with it.  StevenJ81 (talk) 21:27, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Both spellings are now in place. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yiddish spelling 

message: so it is on friday-saturday but is the 7th day of the week? i'm confused McTreevil (talk) 11:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Jewish days start in the evening. It's about the most longstanding tradition you can find - check out the first chapter of Genesis, "and it was night and it was day, one day". --Dweller (talk) 11:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: days

message: I moved this content to the article Siddur, as the content was about the siddur, not about Shabbat per se. To the original (IP) author, please keep in mind: I moved the content, I did not purge nor suppress it.
I would add: Content about Shabbat-specific prayer books probably belongs more in the Siddur article than here in any event. But if someone disagrees, adds content discussing Shabbat-specific prayer books broadly, and includes information on this siddur, that would be a legitimate approach. Information only about this siddur in this article would not be. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content on ''Siddur Nashim'' moved 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Shabbat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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replies: text: Checked. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:01, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Netems2050 has twice added material based on an image of a calendar found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, writing that it "reveals" the Essenes celebrated Shabbat on the 4th day. Unfortunately, that novel interpretation does not appear to be supported by reliable secondary sources.
According to Lawrence H. Schiffman's article about the Sabbath in Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Oxford University Press, 2000; Lawrence H. Schiffman and James C. VanderKam, eds.), "The Damascus Document ... had much in common with rabbinic legal rulings, but often it tended to be stricter. Both prohibited talking about business, walking in fields to discuss might be done after the Sabbath, allowing non-Jews to do work prohibited to Jews on behalf of Jews, and preparing on the Sabbath for the following workdays. Both systems required that Sabbath observance begin somewhat earlier than sunset on Friday afternoon, and it is possible that the Qumran sect was stricter than the later rabbis. Walking beyond the Sabbath limit was prohibited, based on Exodus 16.29. The rabbis fixed the limit at 2,000 cubits while the sectarians limited it to 1,000 allowing one to walk 2,000 cubits beyond the settled area only if pasturing an animal. The sect did not allow the breaking of an airtight seal on a jar, or any preparation of food, even the peeling of vegetables that were to be eaten raw on the same day, but the rabbis only prohibited actual cooking." (p. 805, emphasis added)
Surely if the Qumran sect observed Shabbat on the 4th day of the week and not the 7th day, Schiffman would note that significant difference between Qumran and rabbinic observance of Shabbat, but instead he only points out that the Qumran sect likely started to observe Shabbat earlier on Friday afternoon than rabbinic Jews.
Relying on one's own interpretation of primary sources is a bad idea, especially in a topic area as well researched as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Qumran community. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly this is not my own research or interpretation and secondly Shiffman has not answered any questions through you regarding why the Essene calendar shows the first Sabbath on day 4. I have cited The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered by Eisenman and Wise both scholars of note publication date 1991. The Essenes were as perfect as you can get to the remnant church of that day that broke away from the Jerusalem Pharasaic leaders and in fact as written in the Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered though they broke away the Temple heirachy was using their calendars. In Genesis we find the Shabbat happened 3 days after the creation of the moon and in the Essenes who now have shown that the new moon of Abib was the first day and 3 days later fell the true Shabbat the 7th day of Genesis though designated as day 4. This information is so important and needs to be included in the article thankyou. The Shabbat now in existance is a later alienation stemming from the 4th century AD agreement between the leading Sanhedrins and Rome where the Roman calendar took precedent under duress due to the enforcement of the Christian Roman 7th day Sunday. In the beginning there were no day names the Hebrews used number days commencing from the first new moon of the Holy year of Abib. The 4th day as cited by the Essene calendar is the true 7th day thats why the Essenes did it that way. And the evidence from that calendar also showing a Sabbath on day 2 of the second month speaks clearly as to how they proceeded for the remainder of the year. They reveal that a new moon was used to commence the Holy year clock in the passover month and then all subsequent Shabbots after the 1st initial 4th day calendar Shabbot happened every 7 days. This is in contradisticntion to the many false lunat Shabbot theories circulating on the net where ignorant people unwise to what has been revealed in the DSS are telling people to recalculate the new moon each month causing a non 7 day Shabbot to happen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Netems2050 (talk • contribs) 04:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Netems2050, I believe you're citing a photo in The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered. If what you've written isn't your own interpretation, please cite secondary sources that describe it. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:48, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Look, at the moment, even if everything you say is true, the best that can be said about this is that it is a minority or emerging opinion. So don't try to make it more than it is for now. And please sign your posts. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:22, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Netems2050, I apologize for attributing your edits to a photo. I can't access those pages. Relying on your interpretation (including what "we all know") of a translation (a primary source) is still impermissible original research. As I wrote, please cite a secondary source in which a scholar describes what you see in the calendar. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:02, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:NOR|Original research]] and the Dead Sea Scrolls 

message: What is the English plural for Shabbos? Shabbosim? In Hebrew it is "Shabbat -> Shabbatot", but I am asking about the Yiddish-influenced English convention. Debresser (talk) 15:16, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you call it an "English convention" I'd suggest "Shabboses?" But "Shabbosim" works too, I think. Why not? (Disclosure: I myself do not use the "English convention" though. I just use the Hebrew terms.) Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 17:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I use both Shabboses and Shabbosim. The the first sounds more English, the latter Yiddish jargon. But since I do not live in America, I wouldn't know. Debresser (talk) 21:31, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plural 

message: If an editor challenges non-English terms, or words or phrases in non-Latin character sets, per WP:V, must another editor supply a reliable secondary source that indicates the translation, spelling, and orthography as reflected in the article? Elizium23 (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing 

message: There's been some discussion about pronunciation in edit summaries so I wanted to clarify: In colloquial Ashkenazic Hebrew almost every word is penultimately stressed. Because stress affects vowel length, a two-syllable word like Shabbat, which is ultimately stressed in Tiberian/Sephardic/Modern Hebrew, becomes Shobbis. However, this isn't typically reflected in English spellings. So, while I don't think it should be the main spelling on wiki, this pronunciation certainly isn't "local" and certainly is "mainstream". Almost all Orthodox Jews in America pronounce it this way, and about half of Jews worldwide. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That's WP:OR. Please cite sources. Elizium23 (talk) 21:39, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: I think it's significant enough to mention in the lead that Samaritans also observe Shabbat. Synotia (talk) 20:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: All kinds of marginal groups, like Christians who keep Shabbat and Samaritans, are not lead material. The request is probably POV inspired, because even Christians who are keeping Shabbat are not in the lead, and that section is significantly larger than the one short sentence about Samaritans. Debresser (talk) 23:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I do like the "Samartian" spelling in the title. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 00:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fixed. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 01:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Since we're on a talk page, it's alright for Debresser to say the truth about the group. I think it is objectively true to say that Samaritans are marginal(ized) and have been since Biblical days, or "The Woman at the Well" wouldn't make sense, would it? This article is about a topic, but since Shabbat is observed by groups with different interpretations, that makes for different concepts as well. So we need to take the groups one-by-one to compare and contrast their particular concept known as "Shabbat". Elizium23 (talk) 02:33, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim that Samaritans are marginalised is POV, and dismissive. Marginalised in what sense? Reference to stories in the Hebrew Bible doesn't change that. It is not an appropriate statement for wikipedia. I agree with the rest of what you are saying.Pngeditor (talk) 09:09, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're the one who's being dismissive about this. By what POV are Samaritans not marginalized? If you asked a Samaritan (or a Roma or the Uyghurs if they were marginalized, would they be offended or tell you you're wrong? Have you even seen the reliable scholarly sources that discuss at length the way Jews marginalized Samaritans for over 2,000 years??? Elizium23 (talk) 09:30, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Samaritans are a small and insignificant group compared to Judaism. No personal offense intended. Debresser (talk) 11:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Well, there is power in numbers (and by the same token insignificance in the lack of numbers). Now please stop telling me what to say and how to say it, because I don't really care about your supersensitivity here. Debresser (talk) 20:26, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samaritans