Talk:Dorothy Kilgallen

message: Today's additions of two Wikimedia Commons files give Dorothy Kilgallen a voice.  Here is what she said reacting to the guilty verdict for Dr Sam Sheppard.  These are her own words.  She is well-known as a wordsmith.  Editors here have dismissed one particular Kilgallen biographer as a conspiracy theorist and his books as fringe sources.  They are right.  Can Dorothy the wordsmith play a part in her own article?  Other Wikipedia articles have digital scans from very old newspapers.  The New York Journal-American article is one of them.  Dorothy wrote for that newspaper.  It's time for her article to include her own words.Waring Waning (talk) 17:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We are not here to promote an individual or provide them a posthumous platform for their writings etc. The front page image is a good find and adds to the article. But this is not an archive for her work. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dorothy's own words 

message: Is a book a fringe source if it is published by PageTurner Books International?  Here is how this publisher’s website describes the company.
Here is the Google Books page for the Dorothy Kilgallen book issued by PageTurner Books International.Brent Brant (talk) 03:44, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The book makes assertions that are widely regarded as fringe. Unless it is reviewed by multiple sources that are recognized by the community as being reliable, that in turn attest to the book's reliability, I would strongly oppose accepting it as a source for anything in the article. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Those reviews will be important.  No one knows whether it makes fringe assertions unless they have read it.  It might not agree with all the assertions in Mark Shaw’s books.Brent Brant (talk) 08:02, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I read a synopsis of the book's claims and they are patently fringe. Unless multiple independent sources recognized by the community as reliable in their own right, (ex the NY Times, Washington Post etc.) endorse the work, I don't see any chance of it being accepted. The synopsis strikes me as straight up tin foil hat nuttery. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this publisher sell only fringe sources?  It has a new Kilgallen product. 

message: There doesn't seem to be much on her personal life. It appears that the Mark Shaw book "The Reporter who knew too much" may cover this if somebody has access. For example the Johnnie Ray article includes:
According to lawyer and researcher Mark Shaw, Ray's relationship with Dorothy Kilgallen produced her youngest child Kerry Kollmar, whom her husband Richard Kollmar disowned after Kilgallen's death in 1965. In two books that Shaw has authored, he claims that Kilgallen remained faithful to her husband for 13 years, ignoring rumors of his extramarital affairs because she did not witness evidence of any of them during that time frame. After years of infidelity, Kollmar became careless, to the extent that in 1953 he brought a male lover into the third-floor master bedroom of his and Dorothy's new home, a five-story townhouse on Manhattan's East 68th Street. After Kilgallen caught the two men in a compromising position, she and Kollmar decided to stay married strictly for business. Their business included a talk radio show they broadcast from home every day that brought them large salaries and that promoted Broadway shows produced by Kollmar. "Dorothy and Dick", as their radio listeners knew them, discussed Ray's singing style on their program, according to a profile of Ray in the Saturday Evening Post edition dated July 26, 1952.
In 1954, Kilgallen gave birth to a baby boy who was photographed for magazines and newspapers with her holding him, never with a father. Decades later, Ray often mentioned Kilgallen to his manager Alan Eichler and remained devastated by her unexpected death in 1965. According to Eichler, Ray never spoke about or acknowledged the rumors that he fathered Kilgallen's third child. Throughout the 1980s when Eichler managed Ray, historians of popular music did not consider Ray important enough to research his private life, so Eichler was not familiar with the eyewitness accounts that Mark Shaw discovered years later, and Eichler did not ask Ray about possible fatherhood.
Some of this should probably be included here.
- SimonLyall (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Many previous discussions on this Talk page have established a WP:CONSENSUS that the Mark Shaw book is not a reliable source: here, here, here, here, here, here, and here, although I might have missed some others. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 23:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Shaw's book has come up so many times here, might it be helpful (if allowed by PAG) to create a banner for this page along the lines of "Numerous discussions on this Talk page have established the consensus that "The Reporter Who Knew Too Much" by Mark Shaw is not a reliable source"? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 11:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal Life and Mark Shaw book