Talk:South Buffalo, Buffalo

message: Most of the current contents of this section probably should vanish. I just wandered in here while reverting spam, so if anyone who is more familiar with the article and the topic would like to review what's there in light of WP:EL, that would be great. Rivertorch (talk) 18:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: After reviewing all of the links, one was dead which has been removed, and the others all seem to fit the sense of the article and are appropriate. I feel that the number of external links is justified because the article is about a geographical area which by its nature has many diverse aspects. The links help to detail many of these aspects. Therefore, I removed the tag.Roesser (talk) 04:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Before starting the nitty-gritty process of proposing actual text, here are some general thoughts about content:
* Aside from defining South Buffalo (saying what and where it is), the lead section should summarize the main points of the article. For this reason, it may be helpful to revise the lead last, after the rest of the article has been revised.
* Ethnicity is a valid topic to discuss in the article, but (1) any claims must be well sourced and (2) there should be something especially significant to the claims vis-a-vis South Buffalo (i.e., every city/region/community has an ethnic makeup—so what?). Otherwise, the topic really isn't important enough, except for maybe the briefest of passing mentions.
* Items of strictly local interest should be avoided (including local celebrities). One way to draw to line is to check if the person, place or event has a Wikipedia article. If so, it probably should be mentioned. If not, we can consider other criteria (e.g., has the subject received mainstream press coverage outside the Buffalo area).
* Even if it means paring the article down to little more than a stub, it's better to omit rather than include statements that we don't have reliable sources to back up. There's absolutely no rush: if the sources exist, they'll still exist next month and next year.
Unless someone else goes first (and please feel free), I plan to go section by section and draft proposed text here beginning today or tomorrow. Rivertorch (talk) 14:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: In general

message: Current text:
To many, the neighborhoods of South Buffalo are defined by the particular main street to which the side street in which they lived off of was located. Seneca Street, South Park and Abbott Road are the three major streets in this section of Buffalo. For many Roman Catholics, the neighborhoods within South Buffalo are often identified by the parishes of the Catholic Churches in the area. The parishes, St. Ambrose, Holy Family, St. Agatha, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Martin, St. Teresa and St. John the Evangelist stretch from the lake front to the West Seneca border south of the Buffalo River to the north and Bailey Ave. to the west. 
South Buffalo has various educational opportunities to offer, from Public Elementary and High Schools, to Elementary Charter Schools and even Catholic Elementary and High Schools. Also, there is the presence of Trocaire College.
Recently, the South Buffalo Catholic Schools have consolidated to form one school, which is called South Buffalo Catholic School.  This school has three campuses: Trinity Catholic Academy  located at St. Teresa's Parish, Notre Dame Academy located at St. Martin's Parish and Ambrose Catholic Academy located at St. Ambrose Parish. These schools continue to struggle financially because of the high cost associated with operating private education. The 2008-2009 school year closed with a $340,000.00 operating deficit. The schools continue to see a decrease in enrollment, as families can no longer afford the high tuition expense in such a poor economy. Also, the area continues to see a drop in church attendance which has caused many parishes to close. The City of Buffalo has been ranked by the U.S. Census Bureau as the third poorest city in the nation. The latest census figures also shows a steady decrease in the population of Buffalo and its surrounding suburbs.
The Public Schools of South Buffalo continue to flourish in population. Public Schools in South Buffalo include Hillary Park Academy, Southside Elementary, Lorraine Academy and many charter schools. The City of Buffalo has launched a program which has invested millions of dollars into the renovation of each of their schools. South Park High School saw over 40 million dollars put into their building which included the rebuilding of an entire wing of the school. Hillary Park Academy just completed their renovation and Southside Elementary is undergoing a renovation in the 2009-2010 year.
South Park High School is the neighborhood's only public secondary school. The two remaining high schools in South Buffalo are Bishop Timon - St. Jude High School for boys and Mount Mercy Academy for girls.
Comments:
The section starts out with a phrase that fits the definition of weasel words: "to many". I understand that it's probably quite true, but for our purposes it's vague and needs attribution of some kind. Surely someone can find a book or web page that will suffice to link main streets to neighborhoods.
The section continues with the phrase "for many Roman Catholics" and offers church parishes as an alternate way to define neighborhoods, which raises the question: does the unspecified "many" in the first sentence refer primarily to non-Catholics? The implication is there, anyway. I wonder whether something like this might not work better:
The neighborhoods of South Buffalo often are defined either by proximity to certain thoroughfares—notably Seneca Street, South Park and Abbott Road—or by the Catholic parishes of St. Ambrose, Holy Family, St. Agatha, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Martin, St. Teresa and St. John the Evangelist.
The part about the parish borders may be problematic because it's not clear whether they correspond with the general definition of where South Buffalo begins and ends. I have removed the internal links since they correspond to articles on historical figures and not parishes.
The next paragraph has multiple issues. Rather than enumerating each of them, I propose replacing the wording with something like this:
South Buffalo contains a variety of public, private, and charter schools, as well as the two-year Trocaire College.
It's simple and neutral, anyway. If all the private schools are Catholic ones, that might be specified.
The third paragraph is a little weird. First, it seems to contradict the previous paragraph (as it stands now, not my proposed replacement above), which mentioned multiple Catholic schools, by saying there's now only one. That should be easy enough to verify. Somebody with a nice fast modem want to find the link? Assuming we do have a source for that, let's find another for the part about the financial woes of the Catholic schools. To be continued... Rivertorch (talk) 06:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I will try tp pull some info. together that might help with this section. I am Catholic, but, I don't think that the neighborhoods are really defined by the Catholic parishes. The various signs say things like: "Welcome to Seneca St. Neighborhood - Downtown South Buffalo." Since there are so many non-Catholic churches, I think that might be misleading and subjective. I like your wording on the schools because I think that previously it sounded like a laundry list and I did notice some other schools were missing. There are public, private non-Catholic and Catholic. Rivertorch, the schools in South Bflo. are pretty much just elementary and secondary and then the college. Our suburbs have middle schools, but not here. As for the third paragraph, I think again we're off on a tangent. Enrollments have more to do with the schools than So. Bflo. itself. I don't think all the explaination is necessary. Most of the schools don't seem to have any link that I could find, except for the college and Timon and Mercy. On the fourth paragraph, I agree with you entirely. Now another point is that Mercy Hospital is located in So. Bflo. Since it is the largest business/institution - should it be mentioned? Also, should we have a link to its webpage? Good work! I'll do some leg work by the end of the week. Any input from So Blo Rules or Bad Knees would be helpful. Or was it just your thing about nationalities in the first paragraph?Swisher1 (talk) 23:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your input, Swisher. Based on what you said, I guess we'd definitely want to see reliable sources re parishes defining neighborhoods; otherwise it should go. Agree with you about the enrollments. Yes, if the hospital is the largest employer, it deserves a mention. Let me think about the link . . . too tired at moment for anything more substantive. I hope to tackle the next section tomorrow (today GMT). Rivertorch (talk) 04:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Section: Neighborhoods & schools

message: Current text:
South Buffalo [had] one of the largest concentrations of Irish Americans Buffalo Memories Gone But Not Forgotten, George Kunz, pub Canisius College Press, 2002,  west of the Hudson River outside of Chicago, many of whom settled in Buffalo after the completion of the Erie Canal, as well as the coming of the railroads and the industrial revolution later in the nineteenth century.  Nevertheless, unlike many other American cities with large Irish-American populations, Buffalo, New York's southside Irish came to the USA relatively late when comparatively speaking.  By far the largest concentrations came from the Irish Counties of Clare, Cork, Mayo and Wexford.  Indeed, most were post-famine arrivals who were recruited to work the burgeoning steel mills, petroleum refineries, foundries, flour mills, automobile factories, and machine shops sprouting up in this highly industrialized city. Many more of South Buffalo's Irish would wind up working in the ranks of the protective services for the Buffalo Police Department and Buffalo Fire Department. Others found jobs in the various unionized Building Trades, such as in the labor unions representing the Carpenters, Bricklayers, Iron Workers, and Operating Engineers.
Youth ice hockey is huge in South Buffalo.  The Cazenovia Chiefs hockey program provides recreation for hundreds of children in the neighborhood. This program has produced such hockey talents as Patrick Kane, Tim Kennedy, Peter Ratchuk, and Mike Ratchuk.
The neighborhood plays host to the Goin' South Irish Feis every year, an event that is extremely popular among young people. It features food, fireworks, and live music, including Jackdaw, a neighborhood favorite act. Because South Buffalo also has a number of Italian Americans, it hosts an Italian Festival each summer. Another popular event which takes place is the annual Seneca Street Car Show, which draws many people into South Buffalo.
With its Irish roots there are also a few traditional Irish Dance Academies in the neighborhood area of South Buffalo, such as O'Sullivan Academy, Rince Na Tiarna, Woodgate-Shamrock, and Clann Na Cara.
A number of newspapers, publications and websites keep residents up-to-date with news, events and announcements including The South Buffalo News print publication put out by the Front Page Group and available at local stores, The Greater South Buffalo Chamber of Commerce newsletter that is sent out regularly to members and by request ( ) and the website South Buffalo & Southtowns Online news ( http://www.SouthBuffaloOnline.com ) .
Comments:
For starters, the first paragraph of this section doesn't seem to belong here. It deals with the history of South Buffalo, and its connection to the rest of the section is tenuous at best. However, it needs some work wherever it ends up, so here goes. In the first sentence, the footnote is in an odd place. If the source supports that it is (or was) one of the largest concentrations west of the Hudson outside of Chicago, then the footnote should be after that statement. If anybody here has access to that book or wants to check if Google Books has the content online, great; a page number would be helpful. (As to whether it's still true, perhaps the source mentions a year?) The next sentence has grammatical problems. I think it could be combined with the remainder of the paragraph in a more condensed form, like this: Buffalo's southside Irish arrived later than Irish immigrants in other major U.S. cities.[Is this true? A ref would be nice.] Most were post-famine arrivals who were recruited to work the burgeoning steel mills, petroleum refineries, foundries, flour mills, automobile factories, and machine shops sprouting up in this highly industrialized city. Many wound up working for the police and fire departments, while others found jobs in the various unionized building trades, such as carpenters, bricklayers, iron workers, and operating engineers.
Next, we have the abrupt transition to youth ice hockey. I would suggest rolling it all into one sentence:South Buffalo's Cazenovia Chiefs youth hockey program, which provides recreation for children, has produced several professional players, including Patrick Kane, Tim Kennedy, Peter Ratchuk, and Mike Ratchuk. 
The next paragraph refers to the "neighborhood". Which one? The article already mentions multiple neighborhoods in South Buffalo. Other problems can be addressed by removing modifiers such as "popular" and "favorite" and removing the cause-and-effect statement about the Italian Festival.
Next paragraph, I don't know whether the existence of traditional Irish dance academies is worth mentioning, but I see no good reason to mention any of them by name unless any of them meets notability guidelines for an article of its own. Free advertising shouldn't be a feature of the article.
The last paragraph seems superfluous. Its two links are already there in the External links section, and that ought to be enough. 
Individually, this section's text is pretty easy to fix. As a whole, however, it doesn't hang together coherently. The structure of the article needs to be reconsidered. Rivertorch (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Section: Society

message: Current text:
Also within the area are two parks designed by Frederick Law Olmsted.Olmstead parks in Buffalo These parks, Cazenovia and South Park, are connected by wide elm-lined streets. McKinley Parkway and Red Jacket Parkway are two of the remaining parkways that created a greenway throughout the city in the early 1900s.
Cazenovia Park is the larger of the two parks. It contains two baseball and two softball diamonds.  The baseball diamonds and one softball diamond reside in an area aptly referred to as the "Bowl". The second softball diamond is situated a little further away and called the "Hidden Diamond".  The park also contains a nine hole golf course, a wading pool, playground, basketball & tennis courts, three soccer fields, as well as a casino, typical of the era when the park was designed.  The road running through the park was named after South Park High School Alumni Warren Spahn in 2004.
South Park is located along the border of Lackawanna. It also contains a nine hole golf course, as well as two softball diamonds. The Buffalo and Erie County Botanical Gardens is also in the park.  It is a favorite summer time habitat for Canada geese..
Hillery Playground, located in the Seneca Street neighborhood, is a main recreational area for the residents of the Seneca Street area of South Buffalo.
The South Buffalo area is serviced by the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority buses on Seneca St. (No. 15), Abbott Rd. (No. 14), McKinley Pkwy. (No. 19) and South Park Ave. (No. 16).
Comments:
Even more than the others, this section is crying out to be renamed. 
First paragraph: "Also within the area..." Another non sequitur. Grrr. Olmsted was a major figure. It would be nice to find some info about the topography and layout of these parks. In the meantime, this section mostly needs copyediting and some judicious trimming of adjectives. WP articles don't need to list bus routes, either; that runs afoul of WP:ISNOT and may change frequently enough to make any accuracy impossible to maintain. Enough said. Onward. I guess I'll deal with the last section tomorrow, rearrange things a bit, rewrite the lede, and try to patch it all together into something approaching coherent. Other than Swisher1's helpful observations and kind offer to help, this seems to be turning into a solo endeavor. I would be glad if the three editors who were so heavily involved in the flurry of changes last week would offer some input on my comments and proposed revisions. Rivertorch (talk) 04:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Section: Geography

message: User Sportslogo has inserted many "citation needed" tags. I'll attempt to fulfill some of them, but others refer to passages that are already cited. (e.g., Chestnuts, Spoonley the trainman, steel companies, Moe Talty Franz walk, and famous natives. Roesser (talk) 22:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed tags 

message: Kaisertown is a distinct and separate neighborhood from South Buffalo, and should have its own page. Clinton St. is not a part of South Buffalo, and nobody from either neighborhood would disagree. As mentioned above, that there is more than one neighborhood in South Buffalo mentioned...South Buffalo is only one neighborhood. Yes, there are certain distinctions made, such as street or parish, but they do not imply a separate neighborhood.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.229.193 (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Create a new page for Kaisertown 

message: Is this a neighbourhood fan site or an encyclopaedia article? Needs a thorough cleanup, removal of trivia, insertion of encyclopeadic information and improved referencing. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What a mess! 

message: A new page was created for the Greater South Buffalo area including all of the neighborhoods and not just a small section, which seems to be alluded to here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luvbug59 (talk • contribs) 08:01, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Page Created for South Buffalo/Southside