Talk:Samira Bellil

message: gaysources. However, removing very large fractions of the article is not the way consensus and NPOV is going to be achieved. Sdedeo 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you changed a few words and did a find and replace on her name. It's still basically blood libel. I'm tagging this as POV. Rhobite 18:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we can get someone from the French wiki (post a message there) to translate for us. I'm sorry you think poorly of my efforts; I made a good faith attempt. Sdedeo 01:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What the French wiki got is exactly the same that I reverted to earlier today. If you can check my user page, u'd find that there's no need for a French wiki translator. Cheers -- Svest 01:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi -- I got into an edit conflict with some while you were working on the article. I incorporated some of my material into what they added (some of the quotes I removed because their meaning was rather obscure, seems it was somewhat clumsily translated.) Sdedeo 02:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: lol! It was me. I'll try to merge yours and mine. Cheers -- Svest 02:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Earlier Discussion

message: Sorry guys for reverting all the stuff before Nov.3. I was in a hurry and wanted to make a point. The problem in France, especially in the suburbs of large cities (les banlieues) is considered a social problem. Unemployment is very high compared to European standards and crime rates have never decreased since early 90's. There is one thing worth mentioning. It's the fact that some young gangs of muslim bkground view girls of their own culture who go out with other guys as a praw. It is also worth mentioning the fact that after she wrote in her book, she got condemned. Her parents threw her out in shame, and her quartier, or neighbourhood, rejected her. "People outside the estates don't know," she said. "And everyone on the estate knows, but they won't say anything." There were years of drug abuse, squats, foster homes, despair"Guardian.co.uk. Apart that, I oppose everything that relates this phenomenon to Islam in wikipedia. The reasons are the following:
* First of all, Islam forbids Zina (premarital sex and adultery like other religions). Rape is definitly worse than that. It also forbids taking drugs, stealing or any thing related to crime. 
* ...Samira was first gang-raped when she was 14, when her boyfriend handed her over to three of his friends.' - Which is true. She wasn't rapped by strangers or muslims as the article suggest. If Islam forbids adultery, than how come the guy befriended her? Those cases happen everywhere, no matter which culture or religion the rappers are affiliated to. 
* ...Pack-rape of white girls is an initiation rite of passage for a small section of young male Muslim youth, said Jean-Jacques Rassial, a psychotherapist at Villetaneuse University. So if white males (of christian bkground who are not practicants) rape a black female, would we say that the were Christians? What if a Muslim (while raiding a Jew shop) kills that Jew? It was because he happened to be a Jew or because of other [criminal] motives? 
* To whoever who understands French, Samira, in an interview, never mentioned that she was rapped by young muslims. 
:Q : Qui sont les garçons qui organisent ces tournantes ? Des chefs de bande, des petits trafiquants ? Who are those people, Gangsters, small street boys?
: R : Souvent, c’est des gamins en échec. Dans mon cas, c’était un caïd, un vrai méchant ; il était beaucoup plus vieux que moi, il avait 21 ans. She answers clearly that those who commit that are considered to be in a state of despair. She says In my case, it was a Caid (captain), a very bad one; he was older than me, he was 21.Interview with Chiennesdegarde.org 
* Most of those young gangsters use drugs, rob, steal, etc... I know of no muslim (that the article refers to as doing all that). They never visited a mosque to be considered literally as Muslims. They are called Muslims because their parents are. That's it. 
* The problem is purely social. Young people in despair as many others around the world who commit those kind of crimes. That is what the Australian or American media can't understand better than the French one in this case. 
* Have a look at her entry in the French wiki (use an online translator if needed). Nothing about this Muslim young stuff is mentioned there French Wiki article. She says Devenue éducatrice en banlieue, elle affirme : « La cité, c'est plein de gens formidables qui essaient de s'en sortir courageusement. Car tous les petits gars de chez nous ne sont pas des violeurs, loin de là». In other words, she says that the problem is purely social. We cannot judge on her place and refer to a thousand miles away reporting. -- Cheers Svest 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverts

message: I revised the article according the talk page and the french wiki version and reliable sources instead of original research and broad journalistic analysis. I hope this version would be fair to Samira and the community accused here in Wikipedia by 2 editors of many horrible accusations. Please check. Cheers -- Svest 01:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry you only blanked out most of the information and set your standard to an incomplete article in the French Wiki. Your changes have been reverted.--CltFn 03:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision according to the French wiki and sources

message: I have NPOVed the article and it is now fully supported by credible sources in the reference section. Take a look at it and if you want to make changes then discuss the specific points in the talk page.--CltFn 23:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisions to the article

message: There are two different versions of this article which are being "flipped" back and forth. I have done a very hasty "merge" of the two versions (one that CltFn is a proponent of, and on that Yuber, FayssalF, Rhobite and I, among others, have been working on.) We should now focus on sourcing and NPOVing this merged version. It is not the best solution to the problem, but otherwise everyone will just be reverting each other to infinity. Sdedeo 23:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks , I think this article is starting to get where it needs to be.--CltFn 23:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: CltFn -- this article requires more sources. In particular, this set:
:According to the testimony of numerous victims, young Muslim women who disobey proscribed Islamic conduct in the neighborhoods such as behaving and dressing in as a non-Muslim, or wanting to live as Europeans or refusing to wear the Hijab have been considered by some to be "fair game" for Tournantes. Young women have testified to having been threatened for acting like non-Muslims and they are told they will face severe punishment.
:The typical scenario that takes place is that the targeted young woman is drawn or lured into a secluded area where she is brutalized and repeatedly raped by groups of men who take turns raping her. The victim is usually insulted for behaving in an non-Muslim manner. Typically the girls are often released afterwards, but rapes are often unreported for fear of reprisals against their families. In nearly every case on record the young victim who do report the crimes commited on them say days later they would again be re-caught by the gang and the gang-raped again.
of paragraphs needs to be sourced, probably to more than one source, in all its particulars. Please note that some of the article is inaccurate; for example, the articles on Tournantes in Australia describe the phenomenon as perpertrated by Muslim men on (ethnically) white women. Needless to say, when you have a controversial statement, and here it seems that anything ascribing the gang rapes to aspects of Muslim culture is going to be controversial, you need to source it and also preface the information by saying "According to source X, blah". Source X should be the name of the newspaper if the claim is made by a journalist, or the name of the person quoted; also be careful to distinguish between journalistic sources and editorial ones. For example, if you use the Sydney Morning Herald article as a source, you should describe it as "According to an editorial in the SMH...", since it appears in that paper's opinion section.
Sorry to be so explicit, but trying to avoid more conflict here.
You should also take out some of the more "colorful" language, e.g., describing a victim of an assault as "unlucky" and so forth. Encyclopedic language needs to be as sober as possible. Good luck, and thanks for tackling the merged article. Sdedeo 00:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes I see what you are saying , I will try to get to this as soon as I can , in the meantime , we can all sleep better at night knowing that the sources are right at the bottom of the page for those hardy souls who can muster enough energy to click on the links .--CltFn 00:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that many of the sources at the bottom of the page say different things, some of them are opinion pieces as opposed to standard journalism, and the bulk of the more inflammatory things are sourced only to one or two articles. The source issue needs to be cleared up right now, and inline sources need to appear like this . I am putting a "sources" tag on the page. Sdedeo 02:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, CltFn, the tag is up. The burden is really on you at this point to directly, and with inline citation, source the bulk of the claims the article makes. The sooner you do this, the sooner this issue will be resolved. As of right now, I am very skeptical of large chunks of this article's claims; furthermore, I anticipate that we will have a couple rounds of NPOV edits; however, we cannot do NPOV until many of the claims in the article are properly sourced. Good luck, Sdedeo 03:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Need for sources

message: Hi CltFn --
The source you cite for this paragraph
:Tournantes, discussed in detail in Bellil's book, are a relatively recent phenomena in Europe referring to collective Gang rapes in predominently Muslim neighboorhoods by youth gangs who target young women that dress as westerners or who do not follow strict Islamic religious conduct like wearing the Hijab.
is a Time magazine article . However, the citation is invalid. In particular, the Time magazine article does not suggest that tournantes ("gang-rapes") are restricted to Muslim neighbourhoods, nor that they are selectively targeted against women who "dress as westerners" or who do not follow Islamic religious conduct.
You will need to find a different source to sustantiate the claims in this paragraph. Sdedeo 03:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disagreed - the article very clearly identifies the areas involved, and very clearly identifies the main social groups ("But specialists and victims' groups say violence against women is especially acute in the banlieues because of cultural attitudes toward women. Banlieue males may adopt the lifestyles of other French youths — pop music, fast cars and pornography — but they also frequently embrace the traditional prejudices of their immigrant parents when it comes to women... Bellil's attackers targeted her because she dressed as she pleased, mixed with males and liked to dance — and had begun a romance with another teen..... Most are first-generation French, the sons of parents who arrived in the 1950s and '60s from Tunisia, Algeria, Spain and sub-Saharan Africa." - If it can be shown that the majority of people in these areas are muslim, then the source is factually valid. However, it may be irrelevant to say they are muslims, one could rather just say that the perpetrators are primarily immigrants, which the source clearly says.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.136.254 (talk) 20:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: More on citations

message: Hi again CltFn --
The need for sources on the bulk of the claims in this article is rather urgent. It is important that wikipedia not leave contentious material "up" and online for very long. You've really been given the "benefit of the doubt" on the article here, and we've worked to keep many of your claims up and online even without the required citations.
However, the article needs to be sourced, and very soon. I'll swing by the article tomorrow (in perhaps ten hours), and I will remove material that I feel is both contentious and lacking in adaquate sourcing. After that, we will sort of "switch"; you are of course welcome to continue to add and contribute to the article, but we will incorporate material from the current version on a "paragraph by paragraph" basis, with each added paragraph containing contentious material requiring adaquate sourcing.
Yours, and good luck, Sdedeo 07:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added more sources and fact checking to the article and there are now far more sources availaible here than many other Wikipedia articles. I have re-read the article and do not see anything that is not easily verifiable in the references. --CltFn 17:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Need for sources is urgent

message: Dans la campagne de stigmatisation des « banlieues » et des populations immigrées, les viols collectifs, ou « tournantes », jouent un rôle central. Ces pratiques barbares, de plus en plus médiatisées, dévoileraient la nature profondément machiste des populations issues de la culture musulmane. Il faut un immense courage pour oser s’attaquer à ces lieux communs, tant est grande la peur de se voir accusé de justifier la violence contre les femmes. C’est le grand mérite de Laurent Mucchielli d’avoir porté un regard sociologique sur ces pratiques.
Les résultats de son enquête sont sans appel : la pratique des viols collectifs depuis vingt ans, date à laquelle ils sont répertoriés par le ministère de la justice, est plutôt en recul, alors que celle des viols « simples » est en croissance fulgurante ; d’autre part, le viol collectif est une pratique ancienne en France (et ailleurs) et a de nombreuses origines, bien éloignées du culturalisme. Mais alors pourquoi ces « dérives médiatiques », pourquoi la place croissante que les médias accordent à ce phénomène ? On pourrait y voir un intérêt nouveau pour la « cause des femmes ». Il n’en est malheureusement rien. Cette campagne fait partie des « nouveaux habits de la xénophobie », de la diabolisation des Arabo-musulmans. Et, une fois de plus, les médias pensent qu’un mensonge répété cent fois, quand il s’agit des musulmans, devient une vérité. -- Alain Gresh
===Translation===
In the campaign to stigmatise the "suburbs" and immigrant populations, the collective rapes, or "tournantes", play a central role.  These barbaric practices, increasingly the focus of media attention, are supposed to reveal the deeply macho nature of the communities of Muslim origin.  One needs immense courage to attack these common assumptions, so great is the fear of finding oneself accused of making excuses for violence against women.  It is greatly to the credit of Laurent Mucchielli to have examined these practices from a sociological perspective.
The results of his investigation are incontestable:  the incidence of collective rapes has been in decline for twenty years, since the time the ministry of justice started to record them, whereas that of "simple" rapes is growing very rapidly;  in addition, the collective rape is a long-standing practice in France (and elsewhere) and has many origins, quite unrelated to culturalism.  But then why these "media scares", why the increasing attention that the media give to this phenomenon?  One could see in it a new concern for the "cause of the women".  Unfortunately, this is not at all the case.  This campaign is part of the "new face of xenophobia", of the diabolisation of the Arab-Muslim population.  And, yet again, the media thinks that, as far as Muslims are concerned, a lie repeated hundred times becomes a truth. --Alain Gresh (LE MONDE DIPLOMATIQUE | avril 2005 | Page 27) 
===Further reading===
For more details, refer to this , w/ 17 notable sources of notable French researchers that totally deny the attribution of the phenomenon to Islam. 
===Notes about the above===
Laurent Mucchielli is a researcher at CNRS, teaching at the university Versailles Saint-Quentin in Yvelines, director of the sociological Research center on the right and the penal institutions (CESDIP, UMR 2190).  Author in particular of Violences and insecurity, phantasms and realities in the French debate (the Discovery, 2001) and the scandal of "tournantes".  Media drifts and sociological counter-enquiry (the Discovery, 2005) and co-director of Crime and safety:  the state of the savoirs (the Discovery, 2002).  This article is been published in the review Sciences de l’Homme et de la Société, n°75 (2005), under the title:  Tournantes. Un incendie médiatique à démystifier.
Cheers -- Svest 22:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Le Monde Diplomatique]]

message: Laurent Mucchielli is a researcher at CNRS, teaching at the university Versailles Saint-Quentin in Yvelines, director of the sociological Research center on the right and the penal institutions (CESDIP, UMR 2190).  Author in particular of Violences and insecurity, phantasms and realities in the French debate (the Discovery, 2001) and the scandal of "tournantes".  Media drifts and sociological counter-enquiry (the Discovery, 2005) and co-director of Crime and safety:  the state of the savoirs (the Discovery, 2002).  This article is been published in the review Sciences de l’Homme et de la Société, n°75 (2005), under the title:  Tournantes. Un incendie médiatique à démystifier.
Cheers -- Svest 22:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes about the above

message: The article is simply reporting that the incidents occured in predominently Muslim suburbs of French cities. We have also mentioned the reports that the pious girls are generally left alone while those who seek to be more emancipated tend to be targeted. we are not making any connection to any of verses in the Qu'ran regarding unbelievers, since we all know that Islam is a religion of Peace. 
Obviously the youths involved in the tournantes could not be practicing Muslim anymore than the ones rioting in Paris these days or the ones involved in Terrorism as even President Bush has said that Islam is a religion of Peace.  And if he said then it must be true, which should be a standard we can all agree on.--CltFn 01:49, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  We are not attributing the phenomeneon of Tournantes to Islam 

message: There are still zero sources in the article for a number of contentious statements. For example, the following passage still has zero sources:
:Tournantes, discussed in detail in Bellil's book, are a relatively recent phenomena in Europe referring to collective Gang rapes in predominently Muslim neighboorhoods by youth gangs who target young women that dress as westerners or who do not follow strict Islamic religious conduct like wearing the Hijab.
...
:According to the testimony of numerous victims, young Muslim women who disobey proscribed Islamic conduct in the neighborhoods such as behaving and dressing in as a non-Muslim, or wanting to live as Europeans or refusing to wear the Hijab have been considered by some to be "fair game" for Tournantes. Young women have testified to having been threatened for acting like non-Muslims and they are told they will face severe punishment.
:The typical scenario that takes place is that the targeted young woman is drawn or lured into a secluded area where she is brutalized and repeatedly raped by groups of men who take turns raping her. The victim is usually insulted for behaving in an non-Muslim manner. Typically the girls are often released afterwards, but rapes are often unreported for fear of reprisals against their families. In nearly every case on record the young victim who do report the crimes commited on them say days later they would again be re-caught by the gang and the gang-raped again.
It has been over ten hours since I last posted here asking for these things to be sourced. They have not been sourced. I am removing anything I consider to be contentious and requiring sources from the article now.
CltFn, you are of course welcome to continue contributing to this article. However, anything you add that is contentious or possibly inflammatory requires sources. If you do not include sources for additions, they will be removed. Again, there is nothing discriminatory going on here; wikipedia rules simply require that sources be provided.
Yours, Sdedeo 01:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm , that is odd , why would you do this despite the long list of credible sources I listed at the bottom of the page? You seem to be overly stressing inline citations and rather than blanking out specific paragraphs that you seem to question, you just blank out 3 quarters of the article. This seems a bit much considering that the infomation you seek is in the references. I am therefore going to revert back to the earlier version and ask you to simply add the  tag at each point you want a citation and then I will add it. --CltFn 02:45, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Still zero sources in the article

message: I think the quote from Le Monde Diplomatique is worth reading, and I've taken the liberty of slightly revising the translation to make it more easily readable. Palmiro | Talk 19:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Palmiro for the note. People at this place use to come running (i.e. User:Karl Meier) (w/o any prior knowledge of the subject - as long as it concerns Islam just to say Ohhh!! Why do you revert all that block of info?. Apart from having no single knowledge, they are too lazy to have a look at better sources instead of the easy propaganda they read about in the regular media that does just the same as they do here. -- Svest 11:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  interpolation 

message: I was asked to comment about this and so I shall.  Most comments will be based on the edit war from this diff.  Karl re-added "The phenomena of the Tournantes" section and I think all of that should be moved to tournante because it completely eclipses the scope of this article.  So, debates about that content can be had out at that article.  I think it is safe to point out that "traditional conduct" there is a meaningless term more or less unless it is defined... when tournante is created there will need to be something about what the Maghrebi culture that is being "strayed from" is.  Some of the redundant information from Ni Putes Ni Soumises could be removed as well I believe.  So, that leaves (I think) the issue of her life.
"wanted to live freely as a French young woman"  -- That has no real meaning, you'd have to get into what is a French (whole issue of secularism in France, etc.) before that statement means anything.  In fact, I think I can safely say you need some sort of footnoting that attributes statements to articles, so it's not a jumble that can't be verified.  Honestly, I don't really mind most of the data (providing it can be cited) but it does read like a sob story, or a story of a hero... and, we really aren't supposed to aggrandize anyone here.  That can be fixed by some language changes but that writing needs to be cited first.
Also, adding Islamic gang rapes to this article was completely uncalled for.  The article doesn't mention Islam and only mentions Muslim once to say that her family didn't practice.  There was no reason whatsoever to add Islamic gang rape and I can see why Yuber would react strongly because things like that really do seem like this is looking for any attack against his (you are Muslim right?) religion.  It's bad enough that half of the articles already seem like they are wars between pro- and anti-Islam parties we don't need another one turning into that.  So, what do you say to my ideas? gren グレン 09:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem started after Nov.3 when an anon added a large amount of info  that was in most biased and suggesting simply that Samira was rapped by Islamic gangs because she didn't follow the Islamic rules, etc... It also, for unknown reasons, translated the title of the book to In Gang-Rape Hell: Life in Islamic France and I don't know from where we got the last part of the title. It also suggested the the tournante phenomenon is a new one in the whole Europe!!! I discussed these points above and also brought an astonishing report about a research done by the prominent French sociologist Laurent Mucchielli, a director from CERN finding out that it is a propaganda about Muslims and Arabs. (see Le Monde Diplomatique ref above). Rhobitte, Sdededo and Yuber both showed their concerns about that as well. So if people are removing the Tournante section, they do so because the phenomenon existed for centuries now. -- Svest 12:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  My comments 

message: :Image:Samira bellil enfer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Samira bellil enfer.jpg

message: :Image:Samira bellil enfer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 04:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Samira bellil enfer.jpg

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Samira Bellil. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050524041051/http://www.hvk.org/articles/0303/115.html to http://www.hvk.org/articles/0303/115.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051123230346/http://www.mariebrenner.com/articles/daughters/daughters.html to http://www.mariebrenner.com/articles/daughters/daughters.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070901055544/http://menewsie.3.forumer.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=151 to http://menewsie.3.forumer.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=151
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051223201324/http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/silenceselectif/bid18.htm to http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/silenceselectif/bid18.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070222181731/http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/trntalb.zip to http://racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/trntalb.zip
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:21, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified