Talk:Igoumenitsa

message: I have edited the formerly cham inhabited places with albnaian names in the lead, along with their greek form. The reason I edited them is WP:NCGN which states that "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted". The sources we have shows that there was a minority in the towns and villages, so there is "a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". It is the same reason that the names are used in Vlora, Berat, Durres, etc, were no greeks live, but there was a ancient greek colony in there. So we shopuld start a disccusion in order to find a solution, avoiding double standards. balkanian (talk) 12:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Cham presence is not sufficiently notable to include the Albanian toponyms here per WP:NCGN.  The Chams were a minority in all these places, never a majority.  Also the wording is very Albano-POV.  If you say "The area was home to Cham Albanians that were expelled" 1) That creates that all the inhabitants were Cham, when in fact the Chams were a minority in all these places, and 2) it creates the imperssion that they are innocent victims, which is Albanian POV.  If you are going to mention that the Chams were expelled, you HAVE to mention why they were expelled (collaborating with Nazis).  Otherwise, you can't mention that they were "expelled".  --Athenean (talk) 13:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, firstly lets start a conversation about the name. The sentence about their presenced I agree that should be reworded, but lats discuss that later. About the name, in parapotamos, igoumenitsa, maragiriti and parga they were the majority, please see the reference of miranda vickers. But, even if they were a minority, WP:NCGN, does not state that they should be majority in order to add their name. Secondly, there still lives a population in Epirus (see Helsinki Report), which speak albanian (they call that shqip not arvanitika). so the name should be added.balkanian (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

text: [www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html the greek helsinki committee raport]balkanian (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

text: It is the same as Himara,Vlora, Berat etc. If you do not put the Albanian name, than we should take off the Greek names on the Albanian cities.--Taulant23 (talk) 21:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Greek names in those articles are mentioned in the history sections anyway. It's simple, provide reliable sources that there was a significant presence of Albanians, either in size or of historical importance in general, in the places in question and add the names. What don't you understand ??? I am repeating, Ioannina, Epirus (region) etc already contain the Albanian names, we can't just add them everywhere cause of your claims.--Zakronian (talk) 00:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I didn't make my self clear, in those articles even if the Greek names weren't in the lead they are mentioned in the history section cause they are a known part of those places' history. Even if someone removes them a passing-by editor might re-add them while reading the history section. Now the articles in question are very limited in general, anyway, in your quoting there is no mentioning of Igoumenitsa, Parga, Parapotamos etc, no specific mentioning of these places, how do we know where they were concetrated ??? From what publication is the Ktistakis figures ? --Zakronian (talk) 19:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

text: You still don't get the point about wikipedia's name policies, "can be used" or "permitted" is different from "should be used". This is determined by editors. You said it, Thesprotia and Preveza are (large scale) regions, modern prefectures of Greece, Igoumenitsa, Parga, Paramithia etc are cities and towns. There is no conclusion from the sources that their presence was notable in these historical centers. Most of the Cham historiography thing is pushed by Cham organizations the past 15 years or so. Not much to work with, much to be suspicious of. The last website you presented uses the names of these towns to denote the whole geographical zones that Cameria consisted of. There is also a mention of an undetermined number of civic estates, if there were 10 houses in Igoumenitsa that belonged to Chams for example, is this enough reason to add an Albanian name in the city's article ? What we know is that there was a Cham minority spread in Epirus and especially in western Epirus, we also know they mostly occupied themselfs with agriculture, the articles that represent these areas are Epirus, Thesprotia, Preveza Prefecture etc. For more specific places you have to provide more specific sources and numbers.--Zakronian (talk) 23:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

text: You see the problem here i guess, only Albanian or Greek sources so far. Nothing neutral and reliable. I will only bother with the latter, one by one:
in igoumenitsa.gr only Graikohori village is specifically mentioned to have a decreased population due to the leave of Chams. In the demographics archive it is clearly stated that Igoumenitsa's population increased while the whole of Thesprotia saw a decrease by 31%, all these from 1913 till 1951. Note that the decrease is not and cannot be attributed only to Chams, many leftists left for bigger cities to avoid persecution and discrimination after the civil war.
in sagiada.gr before the paragraph you copy-pasted here it says : "Το 1943 οι Γερμανοί μαζί με τους Αλβανοτσάμηδες του γειτονικού μουσουλμανικού χωριού Λιόψη, έκαψαν το χωριό και οι κάτοικοί του σκορπίστηκαν στα χωριά προς τα βόρεια ενώ όταν τέλειωσε ο πόλεμος οδηγήθηκαν από το στρατό στην Κέρκυρα για την περίοδο του εμφύλιου. Γύρισαν λίγο πριν τη λήξη τους αλλά δεν τους επέτρεψαν να κατοικήσουν στο παλιό χωριό αλλά σε καλύβες στην παραλία."
From the two paragraphs we understand that the old village was destroyed by the Germans in collaboration with the Chams that inhabited the nearby village of Liopsi. The new village was created near the sea and a part of the land used was fields owned by Chams. So no Cham village existed in the new location, only plains, and we know that because of their religion they had the biggest and best pieces of land from the Ottoman period although they were an overall minority, a part of their land was confiscated before WW2 but anyway, i just mentioned it as a hint.
in parapotamos.gr : we can conclude that the village was inhabited by Chams, and they probably were a majority.
There is no article for Sivota, the site states that in 1850 it was a small Cham village. Should we link Sivota with some other place ?
To my understanding only Parapotamos should have an Albanian name in the lead, funny, it's the only name that's completely different, all the other are clear transliterations or are closely connected with the Greek ones. I refrain from any further changes to the names for now, if you find any serious book about the issue please mention it here. I don't think the name additions you propose will stand for long. --Zakronian (talk) 01:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

text: lol, i was wrong both for Parapotamos and Syvota, the articles are for the modern municipalities, not the villages from which they took their names, have you heard of the recent "Kapodistrias plan" ? where  e.g. 10 villages are "united" in one municipality for practical reasons. Syvota municipality has another village as its administrative center, Plataria. Now for Igoumenitsa, no, the only positive conclusion about notable Cham presence is in Graikohori village which is not part of the town. From your quoting there is nothing to conclude, it speaks about the area not the town, which btw was an insignificant group of settlements untill the end of the first half of the 20th century, besides this there are NO figures connected with the phrase you claim as proof. As for Sagiada yes it is a rebuilt village, neither the new village nor the old one is linked with important Cham presence, the only thing it says is that there was a nearby Cham village named Liopsi, from which the Germans got help, and that some Cham owned land was used after Chams had left, not Cham houses, just fields. So you're free from me to make new articles about Graikohori, Parapotamos, Syvota and Liopsi villages and add any Albanian names you have. If you still can't accept the fact, then ask help from an administrator. I believe i am fair with the intepretations, ofcourse the ideal thing would be to have sources that don't need any intepretation, hard to understand when you have passed the OR limit. --Zakronian (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Hammond is a worthy source, i will be able to verify it. For the rest about Parapotamos i can't explain better than i already have. What's the new arguement about Igoumenitsa ? That a sizeable minority lives there now ? or that a mentioning of a modern Albanian speaking group is proof of a notable Cham presence in the past ? You can't derive any of the two.  --Zakronian (talk) 04:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes i believe we can use it as source, it would be helpfull if you quoted whatever text you think is relevant in the page the phrase above is mentioned, as i said i will be able to check it myself in the near future, be sure you mention the right page number in the reference. For Parapotamos it would not be accurate to add an Albanian name to a modern municipality that wasn't created from a single village, if you knew about the "Kapodistrias plan" you could understand better, my village in Ioannina for example belongs to a new municipality which took its name from an ancient city, the area it existed is more than 15 kilometers from my village, more or less the same distance seperates it from other villages of the same municipality. You can enrich the article and add it while mentioning Parapotamos village. Lastly, in Igoumenitsa i know for certain that if it really exists the Albanian speaking group is limited, probably some elderly people from the area's villages, you can't in any way connect this mentioning with a current or past notability without speculation. You can always request a third opinion on these matters. --Zakronian (talk) 01:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry but i can't follow you anymore, how can it talk about a municipality when there wasn't any municipality, it is tiring to argue about every tiny margin you find to make speculations. Same goes for Igoumenitsa. You'll have to ask for help from an administrator who is interested or something, if you insist. I have nothing else to add for these sources.--Zakronian (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: The book's topic is not closely related to the matter but i think Rodogno is a reliable source, the statement is clear and i might be able to check his primary sources also. No problem with adding the reference from me. As for the other link, well, what should i say about it ? --Zakronian (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Having read the discussion, I am still not convinced that the Albanian name should be included per WP:NCGN.  I have yet to see a source that says that the Cham presence in the city of Igoumenitsa is notable.  While there were Cham villages in the area, Igoumenitsa to my knowledge has always been a Greek city.  For those villages where Chams used to be a majority, we can include the Albanian name.  Otherwise, if the Cham presence was minor, as is the case here, it should be removed.    --Athenean (talk) 16:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

text: These two , ?  You must be joking.  The first is a book that is completely off-topic, and the second is a total joke.  You will need better sources than that to prove there are indigenous Albanian speakers in town.  Sources need to be reliable, and verifiable.  A cursory search of "albanians igoumenitsa" on google books is not a reliable sourcing.  --Athenean (talk) 17:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Per my reasoning at Talk:Preveza, I would like to think this issue has been settled once and for all.  Moved it to the history section, since it has some relevance, but too few sources use for it to be placed in the lead.  I really hope this is the end of it.  Athenean (talk) 05:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not the same so your reasoning isn't appliable to it. You should stop focusing on the name of a minority and do something to improve the article rather than causing disruption over the name.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike you, I have improved the article in the past.  Seems like the one who is obsessing and being disruptive is you.  I suggest you find a better way of spending your time.  Athenean (talk) 06:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The name issue

message: I gave you the necessary sources for the story at 17:44 what else do you want, to give you? The articles are not copy-pastings from books especially the books you like. They have also logic and indeed I will go to the Cham Albanians article I have already inform you about that. Now are you going to answer my question so to close the issue here?--Factuarius (talk) 19:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, wikipedia, is about citing books, not about truth. Please familiarize your self with WP:RS, WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, WP:What Wikipedia is not.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would prefer a link to Cham Albanians rather than to Expulsion of Cham Albanians, as I feel the first article, being a GA, is more reliable than the expulsion article, which is somewhat inbalanced.  The expulsion and the reasons behind it are discussed in the lead of Cham Albanians anyway.  The remaining issues can be discussed in Talk:Cham Albanians --Athenean (talk) 20:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think there is any problem with Expulsions article, as it is refd with the same authors.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

text: The problem with linking to the Expulsion article is that it is an underhanded way of saying they were expelled without explicitly saying so.  Linking to the Cham article is more neutral and uncontroversial.  I will also remind everyone that the expulsion article only has about 50 edits or so, almost all by Balkanian (with most of the remainder being copyedits).  --Athenean (talk) 01:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, as you wish my response here is it. A minority of Chams collaborated, why would they all leave Greece? Did Greeks leave Greece, because some of them collaborated? Secondly, the ones who collaborated - which was a minority - why would have to leave Greece? Their sons may have became prime ministers of Greece!Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: If you continiue with Wikipedia:IDONTHEARTHAT, I will not answer to your questions any more. The collaborators were a minority, per Mazoparticularewer, Vickers, Kresti, Manda, and all the sources we have. If you do not like it, than go somewhere else to discuss about it. Please bring sources that they were not a minority, and stop assumpitioning.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Since you asked for sources and mention Manda as such: 
«η παμψηφία σχεδόν των αρβανιτάδων Τσάμηδων της περιοχής είχε ταχθή ανεπιφύλαχτα με το μέρος του κατακτητή και ωργάνωνε δολοφονικές επιδρομές ενάντια στα ελληνικά χωριά» Manda--Factuarius (talk) 16:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Did you forget something? ...τοπικά στελέχη που ανέφεραν στις εσωτερικές τους εκθέσεις τις οποίες παραθέτει η Μαντά oti "blablabla oti aneferes". For english users, the above sentence is in Mandas book as "internal documents of topical Greek fighters", aka EDES. It is not Manda saying that.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations and Links 

message: With lies upon lies nobody can expect to go far. Except you. No, as the other half of the Manda's phrase you don't want to mention, indicates, this report is not from EDES but from the friedly EAM. For the english users you are trying to mislead so shameless, this is her complete phrace: 
:"For this reason the EAM's tactic was not understood by the local Greek population, NOR FROM ITS OWN OFFICIALS, WHO REPORTED IN THEIR INTERNAL REPORTS that «almost unanimously Albanian Tsami of the area, prescribed unpreservedly with the part of the conqueror and organized murderous raids against the Greek villages.». This is what Manda said and since you mentioned her for a second time you can wait for more.
:"Για αυτόν τον λόγο η τακτική του EAM δεν έγινε κατανοητή ούτε από τον τοπικό ελληνικό πληθυσμό ούτε από τα ίδια του τοπικά στελέχη που ανέφεραν στις εσωτερικές τους εκθέσεις τις οποίες παραθέτει η Μαντά ότι «η παμψηφία σχεδόν των αρβανιτάδων Τσάμηδων της περιοχής είχε ταχθή ανεπιφύλαχτα με το μέρος του κατακτητή και ωργάνωνε δολοφονικές επιδρομές ενάντια στα ελληνικά χωριά»".
--Factuarius (talk) 07:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your policies are shameless, first you mention Manda about "minority", then you lying about what she said, then you dismised her declaring her POV. I wander: don't you have any shame inside you? There are people waching you, you don't feel uncomfortable about them?--Factuarius (talk) 07:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Factuarius, your citation from Manda is a valid one, but I feel this matter would be best discussed in Cham Albanians, not here.  I think the issue here has been resolved.  And don't let Sarandioti provoke you into overracting.  His post is an example of what we call trolling and is solely designed to get an angry reaction out of you.  Just ignore him when he says things like that.  --Athenean (talk) 23:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Again it is null! EAM local officials reported that bla bla bla. The question is does Manda endorse that the majority collaborated? NO! OVER!Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

text: LOL. first of all the phrase in brackets is just inline of the report of EAM. Manda does not endorse that position! Also, please take a look on Talk:Cham Albanians consensus: no Greek, no Albanian source, on World War II issues.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

text: She is not used in WWII section, but as I said: the phrase in brackets is just inline of the report of EAM, not her position.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem in discussing them, unless you have no problem to include in the article material from Arben Puto, Maksim Kollozi, and other albanian historians. THis was why we avoided both povs, and relayed only in Mazower, Kretsi, and some other non-ALbanian, non-Greek guys, on that section. But, as I said, the problem is not if we use her or not, *which I still think that we should avoid, for the above reasoning* the problem is that the phrase in brackets is just inline of the report of EAM, not her position.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I told you, even if it is (which is not), if you use it on WWII issue, I will use Puto, Kollozi, et al. We had a consensus not to use Greek and Albanian authors, exactely because they present a strong POV, even when we talk on numbers, being unreliable.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

text: There is a consensus proposed by me, that every one accepted, on not using Albanian and Greek authors on the WWII issues of Chams. If you do not like it, I am willing to accept your idea, and to start puting on that page:Manta, Puto, Kollozi, et. al. Its quite simple. The article has 23 greek sources, not on the WWII issues, except of Manta that you put in! In every case I do not care; propose something NPOV and reliable, and then go on. Not using your imagination and putting on Mark Mazowers mouth that all Chams collaborated.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Did YOU forget something?

message: I removed the propaganda which I never heard about Chams burning their own city, The city was burned by zerva's troops in 1944 who came to terrorize the population there which were Ethnic albanian chams and ethnically cleans the city but whole part of Southern Epir (Chameria) please if anyone wants to make propaganda against poor innocent people that got nothing to do with nazi germans go in some other sites not in Wiki which is supposed to be a serious site not a HATE site.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.99.251.53 (talk) 17:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted the recent deletion of sourced material. Please take a look at wp:whatiswikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 19:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which who burned the chams or Greeks igoumenitsa (Gumenica) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It's weird to claim that a person was born in this settlement while the correspondent article does not cite this fact.Alexikoua (talk) 20:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Native born person

message: The name section appears in need of corrections & upgrades since the current text isn't supported by the available inline refenrence.Alexikoua (talk) 02:40, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way the world of Greek origin "γράβα" should not be misspelled with the Albanian "γκράβα". Alexikoua (talk) 04:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: About the alternative names I just remind that wp:NCGN it is recommended to have a name section if there are at least three alternate names. Well since there is one I wonder why there should be a selective mention on the first line of the lead.Alexikoua (talk) 23:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, what about Delvina, Saranda, Gjirokastra? No double standards. AlexBachmann (talk) 12:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: All of those cities have large, living Greek minorities in them. Igoumenitsa is different. There are no double standards whatsoever. Khirurg (talk) 15:09, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Igoumenitsa has an Albanian minority. In case you haven't noticed, there was a big discussion above this section about that. Since that it has freezed. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it doesn't. Not a single sources says there is an "Albanian minority". The Chams were expelled 80 years ago, and that's that. Time to move on. Khirurg (talk) 00:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Pettifer, James (2007). The Albanian question: reshaping the Balkans. Miranda Vickers. London: I.B. Tauris. p. 238, Elsie, Robert (2010). Historical dictionary of Albania. Lanham: Scarecrow Press. p. 173. I think it's time for you to refresh your recollection and see who has actually to move on and who doesn't. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Where do they state there is an "Albanian minority" in Igoumenitsa? You tried the same thing at Ioannina and it went nowhere, the only thing you managed was to waste everybody's time and yours. Same thing here. Khirurg (talk) 00:09, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants" WP:HUH? AlexBachmann (talk) 12:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all. Even those people that still speak Albanian (and there aren't many nowadays, mostly elderly), no longer identify as Albanian, but as Greeks. See this source:  Totally different situation from the Greeks in Albania, who identify as Greeks. Khirurg (talk) 15:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: "Not at all"? So you just say the source is false without any reason? How they identify is irrelevant, they speak it and use the name. Just for the record: We've agreed to put the Albanian name on cities/villages with an Albanian population in Epirus. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Where did I say "source is false without any reason"? The "Not at all" was directed at the accusation of WP:DIS towards me. How they identify is critically important. If they identify as Greek, they are Greek, not Albanian. If I identify as Greek but speak English, does that make me English? And no, I don't recall that we have agreed to put the Albanian name on cities/villages with an Albanian population in Epirus, besides the fact that Igoumenitsa does not have such a population. I would also like to remind you that the Greek name is missing from Gjirokaster, despite the large Greek minority there. Khirurg (talk) 18:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't found about Gjirokastra until now. The WP:HUH? was because you wrote "Where do they state there is an "Albanian minority" in Igoumenitsa?" even though the sources say they speak Albanian. But all right, if Gjirokastra is like that, Imma let this go. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Name section