Talk:Baltic Germans

message: Why prussian german are not counted as Baltic-german?
: There is a difference between the Old Prussians (natives) and the Prussians in the modern sense, but neither of them are Baltic German, as they simply lived in a different area. Clossius
As i understand only germans that lived, in what is today Latvia and Estonia, counts as Baltic-germans, am i right?
: Yes, you are.  Lithuania was not considered Baltic for a long time (until into the 20th Century), and it was certainly outside of any Baltic German sphere.  "Baltic" in that sense were only the Russian provinces of Estonia, Livonia, and Couronia. Clossius 11:12, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: again

message: I changed the sentence saying that the Baltic Germans were impoverished after Estonian and Latvian independence; at least in Latvia, they were the wealthiest ethnic group and extremely organized politically (with the highest per capita representation in the parliament, for example). Also, I tried to underscore the extent of their cultural autonomy -- highly educated, they had their own school system prior to 1934 (even including a higher education institution, the Herder Institute). The school board basically ran their cultural projects for a time. In Estonia, their cultural autonomy was even more extensive. Their designs on Latvia after WWI, e.g. support for Niedra's puppet government and the Bermondt-Avalov episode (for which reason Latvia actually declared war on Germany on November 15, 1919), should be mentioned. Their departure should also be detailed (the agreement between the Latvian and German governments, for example) -- as should the fact that the main Baltic German organization was taken over by local Nazis in the late 1930s (Nazism was rather widespread, especially in the younger generation). A good source is http://www.roots-saknes.lv/Ethnicities/Germans/German_Migrations.htm Pēteris Cedriņš 12:21, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A small change, and suggested changes...

message: Just as an observation, the article, as of now, really reads more like "the history of Baltic German nobility", and not "Baltic Germans as an ethnic group". Despite a popular misconception, which the article also seems to reinforce, the two (Baltic Germans and Baltic nobility) were nowhere near to being identical phenomena. In fact, throughout most of the history of the Baltic Germans (and the German-speaking population in the Baltic area) the majority of them did not belong to aristocracy, but were merchants, craftsmen, clergimen, soldiers and other laypeople. --3 Löwi 15:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, but better if it were integrated into the article! :-) The emphasis on the nobility may be correct in a history of the Russian provinces etc., but not when discussing the ethnic group, which is what this article is about. Clossius 16:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Baltic Germans vs. Baltic German nobility

message: Should this article be at Baltic Germans instead? Carpathian Germans, Danube Swabians, and Transylvanian Saxons are at the plural ending. OTOH, Ethnic German, German-Brazilian and Volga German are at the singular ending. Olessi 20:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good observation! The inconsistency probably irises from the fact that, in English, words ending with -ish or -ese are used in all these meanings, and so people or language have to be added. But an ethnic group name ending with -an in the singular will most often redirect to a disambiguation or to a language or dialect whereas the plural is more likely to redirect to a group of people. I would prefer seeing the plural form in the title, since the content of the article will invariably still use the plural of the noun (if not a derived adjective). But maybe it's nitpicking, really... ;] /Big Adamsky 21:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Even better: "German Balts" should be used as they call themselves (Deutsch-Balten). Likedeeler 19:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a good idea, since the English language follows a different logic than German. If you say "German Balts", an average English-speaking person will think of people of Baltic origin living in Germany. "German-speaking Balts", on the other hand, would be a possibility. Monegasque 23:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: Hello,
WikiProject Ethnic groups has added new assessment criteria for Ethnic Groups articles.
Your article has automatically been given class=start and reassess=yes ratings. [corrected text: --Ling.Nut 22:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: -->How to assess articles
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thread_title: New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

message: I assume their presence today is really tiny but it would be interesting to make a mention of their numbers and places where there may be still communities nowadays. It would also be interesting to note -if true- whether there were certain areas of present day Germany with a remarkable higher Baltic Deutsch population as a result of a coordinated migration. Mountolive | Talk 07:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Today

message: I added  tag to the article, as quite a lot of it seems to be unreferenced - and some possibly original research. There are no references at all and external links don't seem to cover all the claims in this article. Feel free to remove the tag, if you think that it is unwarranted. DLX 08:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreferenced

message: The term "minority status" refers to a certain legal rights minorities have in the modern EU. At the time back then The Baltic Germans were minority exactly as much the British colonists were in India later on. Therefore the talk about minority is misleading. The article claims that the Germans started to settle in the region  before the Northern Crusades. There is no evidence for any German settlements in the region before the crusades, instead the German merchants were trading in the area but never settled. The security of these traders was one of the reasons the crusades started in the first place. so only after the local people were subjugated, the German settlers, read colonists followed. The reason the citation tags are there is due to someone keeps edit warring by adding such claims to the article. Since removal of those claims has not helped, I've tagged it. In case clear references are not provided within reasonable time frame, these statements are going to be removed again. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS.Once I’m on it, there are other considerable inaccuracies in the article. Such as during the Swedish era the Baltic Germans lost most of the privileges including their estates that became Swedish state properties. Also the Swedish Law protected the native peasants. After the Northern War in 1721 Baltic Germans got all what was lost during the Swedish era back and more. The peasants fell into complete serfdom without any basic rights. That was the reason the majority of Baltic Germans always supported the Russian Empire. So basically, the so called minority ruled the territories backed up by the arms of the Teutonic order until the Livonian war and from the Great Northern war the arms of the Russian empire did the job.   
Finally there was a split between Germans during the Enlightenment era where some started to advocate for the rights of the native peoples. And finally the lost Landeswehr war that ended the Baltic German rule in Estonia-Livonia for good that was enforced with the land reforms by the Republic of Estonia and Latvia later on by redistributing the Baltic German estates that ended the 700 years of colonization of the lands. Basically it's the same story like the British in India or the French in Africa etc. just that in a different time frame. So, the point is the article needs some adjustments and it's going to be done ASAP according to published sources, instead of an essay like article that doesn’t cite any direct refs like it is written now. That is the reason the article bookmarked with the general ref tag at the moment.--Termer (talk) 21:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Dear Termer, I agree that the article contains much that is inaccurate, biased or simply wrong. My points are only about (a) the arrival of Germans and (b) their numerical minority.  As to their arrival in the second half of the 12th Century, take a look at History of Riga, for example. And as to minority -- I don't believe the article claims or insinuates that these ethic Germans had "legal minority" status; it says that there were a minority, and that can hardly be disputed (although, as the article and you agree, this minority lorded over the majority.Cosal (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Please read the article. It says Baltic Germans quickly came to control all the administrations of government, politics, economics, education and culture...despite always remaining a minority ethnic group in the Baltics. There is nothing about "numeric minority" there but just a misleading claim. As the fact is Baltic Germans quickly came to control all the administrations of government, politics, economics, education and culture after military conquest and colonization of the lands was completed by the Teutonic Order cooperating with Danish crusaders led by Valdemar II. 
The first time the Baltic Germans became "a minority ethnic group in the Baltics" was after the Baltic republics were established and the Germans were granted cultural autonomy according to ethnic minority laws. And the table you provided shows that Germans were "numeric majority" in Riga at least up to the year 1881 contrary to the claimed "numeric minority". Its only in 1897 when the Germans became so called numeric minority in Riga. And thats the time when they started to loose the influence as well due to the Russification policies of the Russian Empire. -the administrations of government, politics, economics, education etc., German was replaced with Russian language at that time. --Termer (talk) 23:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: First, I had changed that sentence you keep citing to "numerical minority", but you changed it back. Second, being a numerical minority is not at all contradictory to being in control of pretty much everything; world history is full of examples of minorities (ethnic or otherwise) lording over others.  Most of Africa during the colonial times comes to mind, for instance, or South America during the rule of the Spanish and Portuguese. As you said earlier: "At the time back then The Baltic Germans were minority exactly as much the British colonists were in India later on." Indeed, they were -- a minority and in control. Third, you don't seem to have much of a clue about just how many ethnic Germans there were in the Baltics; these were not millions but a few hundred thousand.  Fourth, your definition of "majority" is astonishing; it's the first time I see anybody claim that less than 50 percent constitutes a majority. Fifth, what do EU legal norms on "minority status" have to do with any of this? I could go on, but you seem to prefer lecturing over discussing. Cosal (talk) 00:56, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

text: So, what's the point? When needed, this "vast majority" became quickly unarmed minority against the military forces whoever was the ruler at cities, either Teutonic Order or the regular army of the Russian empire.  Mahtra War on WP is just one of the examples of what this "majority-minority" thing was all about. So is the text in the article suppose to say that:they quickly came to control all the administrations of government, politics, economics, education and culture thanks to the military support of Teutonic Order and later Russian Empire? --Termer (talk) 08:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Amorfati00. For security reasons the Baltic Germans were the majority in their cities while the other populations lived in the rural areas.--BurtReed (talk) 17:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Minority status of Baltic Germans

message: What do we do about the historic Lithuanian German minority? They are not generally considered "Baltic Germans" in the German-speaking world, but on the other hand, they shared many of the same experiences during WWII (including Umsieldung). Should a brief note be added to this article about the different status of the Lithuanian German minority. After all, most English-speakers assume "Baltic" means "Baltic" (EE, LV, LT) or, perhaps, "Baltic" (LV, LT, Old Prussian, etc.). —Zalktis (talk) 15:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lithuanian Germans

message: Does anyone have any information on surnames among Baltic Germans besides what's already in the article? I'm wondering why/how Alfred Rosenberg had the last name he did but apparently wasn't Jewish. Historian932 (talk) 03:22, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The article Rosenberg (surname) may answer your question. --Nug (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baltic German surnames? 

message: In the chapter on ethnic composition, what is meant by the term Germanic Dutch?
Rsmelt (talk) 19:57, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germanic Dutch 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Lettic Germans. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 29#Lettic Germans until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Ingratis (talk) 03:06, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lettic Germans" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]