Talk:Numbers game

message: Why Isn�t the Internet Secure Yet, Dammit? mentions that the math-expert Otto Berman fixed the numbers racket for Dutch Schultz:
:Then organised crime moved in�
:*Dutch Schultz took over from existing operators
:*They weren�t career criminals and were intimidated by explicit death threats
:Dutch hired mathematician Otto �Aba Daba� Berman to fix the numbers racket
:*Ensure that heavily-played numbers never won
:*No-one had ever considered this level of attack
Could you explain what did Berman do?
�Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.250.143.131 (talk � contribs) 20 Feb 2006
* According to our Dutch Schultz article, "Berman was able to mentally calculate the minimum amount of money Schultz would need to bet at the track at the last minute in order to alter the odds, thereby ensuring that he always controlled which numbers won." According to our numbers game article, the winning numbers were generated from the three unit dollars figures in the parimutuel betting "daily handles" from the local racetrack. Now, I am not certain of the meaning of "daily handle", but from some brief googling it seems to simply mean the total amount wagered on each type of bet. If so, this makes Berman's feat impossible unless he knows how much was already wagered, and rather simple otherwise: and I suspect Dutch Schultz' accountant could get that information fairly easily. With knowledge of how much has already been wagered, all that is necessary is to see which result number gives you the best payoff (reasonably straightforward accounting, perhaps made easier if all the street runners had already subtotalled everything), and then select bets of from 0 to 9 dollars for each of the three types (hence, a maximum of $27) to get the result you want. For example, if you wanted the number to be 123 to minimise your payout, and it was currently sitting at 321, then you need to make a $2 bet to win and an $8 bet to show. The exact horse you choose is completely unimportant. Actually, these "daily handle" numbers seem to be a really lousy random number generator. -- Securiger 09:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that Dutch Schultz used his political connections (Schultz had a Democratic Party district leader in uptown Manhattan in his pocket) to get Otto Berman a patronage job as one of the state race track inspectors who look over the shoulders of the people who are adding up the money and calculating the odds as the bets come in. (To make sure they're not cheating, you see...) Because Berman was a lightning calculator he could look over the columns of figures they were adding and see what the totals would be before they had even been added. Then he had time (possibly by signaling a confederate?) to get a final large bet in just as betting was closed. This was a difficult feat to pull off successfully and Berman wasn't able to hit the desired number on the nose every time.  65.88.88.127 (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Otto Berman 

message: The introduction to this article needs rewriting to include details of the country or countries in which �numbers games� take place. I have not come across them in my part of the world. The article refers to �state lotteries� but most counties are not divided into states although many have �national lotteries�. I�m guessing that perhaps this is only a US thing? If so the article should make this clear. Can someone who knows the details sort this out? �The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arthur Clarke (talk � contribs) 21 June 2006.
: Looks like someone provided the context almost immediately after this remark was made. - Jmabel | Talk 15:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insularity 

message: I believe that our article has become confused between two different types of state lotteries. Yes, the major state lotteries with the big jackpots are pari-mutuel, but I believe that in most (if not all) states that offer a "daily numbers"-type lottery the payoff is fixed.
I'm also pretty certain that Pennsylvania is not at all unique in calling this lottery "The Daily Numbers". It's a while since I lived in New York, but I remember that name there as well. This official site bears that out. Also, this page bears me out for the fixed payoffs, at least for New York.
Unless someone can cite something to the contrary for other states in the next few days, I will edit accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 06:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No response. I will edit. - Jmabel | Talk 05:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two different types of state lotteries 

message: I removed "In the 1920s, the "penny ante" game was popular. While long popular in Harlem, only then did it spread; before that, $0.50 or $1 bets were standard." The Lexow Committee report of 1894 talks of penny betting, with a nickel or a dime a popular bet.
In the 1950's bets as low as 0.10 were taken on a number, although usually such a low bet would be made when someone "boxed" their favorite number.  Example - if someone's house number was 409 they would "box" it by betting 0.60 spread among all of it's six possible combinations: 409, 094, 940, 904, 049, 490. If any one of those numbers came out they would win $50. Or they might bet 0.90 on 409 and then also "box" 409 for a dime, meaning they would now have $1.00 on 409 and 0.10 each on its five other combinations. If 409 came out they would win $500, and if it came out in any of its other combinations they would win $50 as a consolation prize.70.20.230.89 (talk) 04:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Penny game

message: There is a pretty extensive history of literature and films that center on the numbers game. Not sure if we want it on this page as such, but I'd like to start accumulating a list. - Jmabel | Talk 18:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I want to see it. It would be good if you gave a summary of how the numbers game is involved in each. I am still compiling a bibliography from the New York Times and the Washington Post. Do you know of any other historical "policy dealers". I just have the few from the Lexow Report, but the New York Times goes back to 1884 with references to "policy dealer" or "numbers game". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular culture 

message: There are several references in the article to the numbers game being 'bad' or 'the worst form of gambling' but no indication of what made it so bad, or the consequences for the victims. How come it was 'bad' when the Families were doing it, but not bad now the state is doing it?206.191.28.35 19:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is it so bad 

message: Someone went to a lot of trouble to explain the situation in Norristown. For years I've seen "Numbers" games mentioned in mob movies but never understood. This explains it well. (Thx) It seems like this person had first-hand experience with the people in this racket. Has anyone written a newspaper article or book that could be used as a more traditional source?  �Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.110.237.188 (talk) 04:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norristown, PA? 

message: This is a continuation of a discussion begun during the AFD for Pea shake. I am opening the discussion here as the closer of the AFD; I am neutral on the matter. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is basically my suggestion. I don't see what makes the pea-shake (originally, from what I can tell, slang for any dice roll, but purportedly involving real dries peas here) significantly different from any other numbers game, of which there are doubtless other regional variants. Probably better that they be handled together. --Dhartung | Talk 04:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested merger: Pea-shake house => Numbers game 

message: In the northeastern United States this game was known as the "Pool", because of its presence in poor African-American communities (see Hailey, Alex. The Autobiography of Malcolm X. Ballantine, 1999, p.90).
I've commented this out until it can be verified and explained. I'll go to the library tomorrow. For example, why would poor African-American communities lead to it being called 'Pool', rather than being (like The Pools in the UK) linked to the pooling of money? -109.155.33.219 (talk) 02:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commented out sentence 

message: " The state's rake is typically 50% rather than the 20%-40% of the numbers game. "
The state didn't run the numbers game--the mob did. Does this mean the mob took 20-40%? Another article I was reading said exactly the opposite: that some prefer the numbers game due to higher payoffs. Is there a source someone could cite for this information? 209.134.115.80 (talk) 03:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  ambiguity 

message: Is it correct to put the phrase "American Mafia" In caps? I mean, Its not like theres an actual orginization going around with that name...Well theres a website with that name but im pretty sure its just a block of ads and code that wouldve tried to install malware on my computer as if it was from 1997.  � Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.28.157.126 (talk) 09:46, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization 

message: This article is too U.S.-centred, since what in U.S. they call "Italian lottery" is the normal "lotto" or "loto" legally organized in many European states. In fact, it is very similar to the American "bingo". There are versions with 90 (the Italian one) and 45 (the most diffused) numbers. Probably, it was invented in Genoa in the XVth century, but it rapidly spread throughout Europe. Lele giannoni (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Lotto

message: The term "nigger pool" needs to be removed from this article immediately. This term is inaccurate, and adds no historical value to the article. The editor of this article has a blatant, obvious agenda and biases, with the intent of being offensive. Notice there is no other ethnic slur used in the article. No ethnic slur was used for Italian, so why would one be used for Black Americans. 
Theoriginalpeople (talk) 05:56, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. The reference in the article currently , explicitly supports the term.    B E C K Y  S A Y L E S  06:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2015 

message: I propose removing the term "nigger pool" as an alternate title in the article's lead section. The inclusion of this slang term does not result in the article being informative, relevant or accurate, per WP:GRATUITOUS, and the mere existence of a slang term does not warrant its inclusion as a title. To draw an analogy, the term "nigger" is not used as an alternate title in Black people. Brycehughes (talk) 23:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The term nigger pool was was a very commonly used term for a Numbers game in Boston. Per ProQuest the term was used by the in a Boston Daily Globe article title 51 times. It was also used at least twice by The Lewiston Daily Sun  . This was a more commonly used term than "Italian lottery", which only appears in three ProQuest titles in relation to the numbers game. The term was also used in Massachusetts General Court legislation . As its usage is not as common as the other alternate titles, I have removed it (as well as Italian lottery) from the lead and relocated it to the body of the article, so that it does not receive WP:UNDUE weight. Hirolovesswords (talk) 03:58, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that it belongs in the body. Brycehughes (talk) 04:12, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Propose removing offensive alternate title

message: The article says that the game is profitable because for every thousand bet the pay out is only six hundred. In fact it is even more profitable because the statement above assumes an equal amount bet in each number. The bettors actually tend to bet on a more limited amount of numbers. These numbers are usually wrong with a large number of players rarely getting it correct. RichardBond (talk) 01:44, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Day to day profitability