Talk:Marie-Chantal, Crown Princess of Greece

message: Marie-Chantal, Princess of Greece and Denmark has her father listed as Robert W. Miller (which I believe is correct, except for the fact that the Robert W. Miller she and her sisters are connected to died about 30 years before they were born.  This could be a problem, no?  I don't know if this is the right place to write this but I couldn't find anywhere else to write it.  I also don't know how to correct this.  Redlady1 (talk) 01:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You think that, but after all that is only what you think. If it is empty and hollow and has no meaning, why are you bothering to dispute it? There is decades, maybe even centuries, of international custom behind according titles to members of formerly reigning families. Her title is one of the kingdom of Greece, not of the republic of Greece, and that is why she can use it. Charles 14:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia does not care what you believe. See WP:NPOV. You could call yourself the Emperor of China for all it matters, but you would not be on Wikipedia because you are not notable. Charles 20:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It does not matter. International convention allows members of exiled royal families to use titles of the family. The mature thing to do would be to leave it alone. It all these millions of Greeks are so offended by it they should just ignore it. Charles 16:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page was already moved there. That's where it is right now. Jtdirl moved it unilaterally because it was unfairly moved in the first place. It has been suggested that it should be moved elsewhere, so a new vote might start soon, but this vote is effectively closed. Kafziel 14:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: *Support As nominator. Charles 16:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The page was already moved there. That's where it is right now. Jtdirl moved it unilaterally because it was unfairly moved in the first place. It has been suggested that it should be moved elsewhere, so a new vote might start soon, but this vote is effectively closed. Kafziel 14:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :See above. Charles 16:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there have been extensive discussions of this in the past. What it came down to was to refer to the person what they are most often referred to. MC is referred to as a crown princess, by various courts and in the media. Charles 16:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are those discussions? Why does she get "Crown Princess" in her title while the actual Queen of Denmark does not? (The issue seems to have been resolved by the above admin anyway, but I'd still like to get better acquainted with the policies and exceptions for future reference.) Kafziel 18:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: She gets it because she is married to a crown prince. It is a standard reference for the wife of a crown prince. A queen obviously can't be a crown princess. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 18:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, come on. You know what I meant. The queen doesn't have the word "Queen" in her title. Just her name and where she's from. So kings and queens don't get that, but princes and princesses do? Kafziel 19:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The highest title held is not used. We don't write President Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, King Albert II as article names etc. But lower titles are used because often there may be multiple people at different ranks with the same name but with different titles. It is standard in biography to say "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom", "Albert II of the Belgians", etc. But it is normal in biography to write "Prince Henri of France", "Princess Mary of the United Kingdom". Biographers know "Mary of the United Kingdom" would be a queen mary of the UK. Lower ranks use Prince, Princess etc, with a crown prince or crown princess using that designation. The only exception is where the prince or princess has a title, in which case the prince/ess is dropped. That is WP rules and normal biographical usage. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 19:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. Being an American, I've never gotten involved in the royalty naming issue (which is why I didn't even vote here). Still trying to understand the conventions. I'm still a little confused, but that's okay. Thanks! Kafziel 19:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You may be surprised, but that ducal title is actually less recognized than the Crown Princely title. Greece under the Oldenburgs never had provisions for noble titles aside from the princely titles used by members of the royal family. The title "Duke of Sparta" has only been used sparingly and, during the time that Greece was a monarchy, presumably only outside of Greece. Marie-Chantal may or may not be a Duchess of Sparta, but if she can hold that title which is used for the heir to the throne, she can hold the title of Crown Princess with a stronger basis. Charles 01:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These persons are so little known anyway... Presumably, their admirers are writing titularies that are not necessarily correct. No proper authority apparently any longer recognizes these titkes. Please kindly show me where in the pre-republican constitution or laws of Greece the title Crown Prince actually is put into use - it may very well be a convenient invention somewhere. Btw, I again read the NC, and the substantive title is actually directed to be used. There also seem to be several examples around WP. On what documented basis do you say that the kingdom did not confer Duke of Sparta to him? Ducal consort title can be acquired by marriage, whereas crown prince and king are frozen in deposement stage (we have the example of Marie-Isabelle de Bourbon-Montpensier becoming Countess of Paris but not Crown Princess of the French). ObRoy 02:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A Greek King stated that the title of Duke of Sparta was to be used by the heir to the throne, however, I believe there were explicit laws stating that titles could not simply be created. The reading of Greek laws would require translation into English, presumably where the title of Crown Prince would come from. Aside from leaving the title in Greek, I don't believe there is any other form that would have been used in English. The Greek Royal Family's website refers to Pavlos as Crown Prince with no mention of the title Duke of Sparta. It also refers to Marie-Chantal as Crown Princess. WP uses the names that people use for themselves that are also the names they are most known by. The crown princely title is extended to Marie-Chantal by the Greek Royal Family and by various other royal courts where the family is most relevant. You are forgetting that Pavlos is the last crown prince... The example of other royals is not relevant until Pavlos dies and his eldest son inherits the headship of the Greek royal house. Regarding Marie-Isabelle though, her husband was born in the lifetime of his grandfather, the deposed French King. Therefore, his father would would have been the last "crown prince", if that title was used in Louis-Philippe's reign. Charles 03:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The crown prince of that France was Prince Royal. And you forget that Philip's father predeceased his own father, already during the reign. Thus, there are sources that mention the young Philip being the Prince Royal of France. Certainly the young Philip also was the acknowledged heir apparent precisely when his grandfather was deposed - it is very easy to find sources to confirm that his accession was even contemplated in the parliament, but by a specific decision, he was "deposed" too. Marie-Isabelle became countess of Paris, the marriage having taken place only after the loss of throne. ObRoy 03:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This all depends on two things: Did France extend the title of Princess Royal to the wife of the Prince Royal, and if so, Marie-Isabelle could only use it if her husband used it. It seems use of that title may have been discontinued with Philip retaining use of the title "Count of Paris". Charles 03:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Greek constitution of 1911: . Relevant portions were in force most of the relevant period - actually, much of its wording lives yet in current constitution. No provision denies the king's power to grant noble titles. No provision says anything about title of crown prince, there are provisions that deal with the successor (whatever is the successor's=heir's title). ObRoy 03:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Duke of Sparta issue arose in 1869, before that version of the constitution. If it wasn't subsequently created, it didn't exist after the constitution was revised. The constitution says nother of either title, but crown prince is and has been used. Charles 03:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Marlene Koenig, an author who personally interviews many royals for her writings, specifically asked Constantine II if Pavlos was Duke of Sparta. Constantine said no. You have to remember, the Greek monarchs were consitutional monarchs. George I simply did not have the "power" to legally grant the title of duke to anyone. The title Duke of Sparta was merely a style, in shaky use, that seems to fallen out of use altogether. The right to grant such titles didn't exist in the first place. Crown Prince is the English style for the eldest son and heir of a Greek king, and as such, the wife of a crown prince is a crown princess. Charles 04:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that this sort of discussion about the issue has been gone through in other places already. However, it is easy to presume that the deposed CII wants to show explicit Greece-titles in each members' titulary, whereas Sparta in his ambition would be too obscure. That does not change the fact that duke of Sparta is the substantive title that has been in use almost 150 years. Btw, when comparing their numbers by google, the fixed "Crown Prince of Greece" got only a number of hits which is in same degree of magnitude as is that of fixed "Duke of Sparta". We cannot say that CrPr is any overwhelmingly more usual... ObRoy 06:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Duke of Sparta gets less hits than Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece. The use of that unofficial title has been discontinued. Charles 15:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: -------------------
erm, she was never a crown princess of Greece. I seriously doubt whether we can endorse this sort of royal pretension here. Her husband apparently retains the title, as he was a recognized crown prince in his childhood, though was deposed. Here, same principle should be applied as is with so-called Queen Anne of Romania. Arrigo 19:31, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: old talks

message: This page contains unsigned edits by user:217.140.193.123 (aka user:Arrigo) 
Further, these unsigned edits appear to have had only a single goal: find a sort of justification for the express creation of double redirects on the Yougoslavian Princess, only hyperlinked from this talk page, and this hyperlink exclusively resulting from his unsigned edit, when Arrigo/217 started the creation of these double redirects, all of these edits and creations on the same day (21 September 2005), see user talk:Arrigo#Double redirects (again) --Francis Schonken 10:02, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Arrigo please stop moving royal articles in general, your actions on wikipedia since day 1 seem to have only focused on that. you have barely contributed anything productive less alone even created a single article. stop moving before discussing it first. Gryffindor 12:43, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Note

message: Please, if you are not stupid you can read this: Greek_plebiscite,_1974. Greece is a republic, democratic and free. We have not princess and princes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.120.8.145 (talk) 02:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've made them. Surtsicna (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

text: It is not "supporting" the monarchy, it is simply recognizing them by the titles they were born with and/or claim.. which is how they are addressed by ALL heads of state besides Greece. It's international policy, and that overrules personal political beliefs. --24.167.189.100 (talk) 04:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

text: They are not "pretenders" (her husband does not claim to be King of the Hellenes, rather he uses his title from birth as The Crown Prince of Greece). They are legally a prince and princess in Denmark. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 03:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Grece is a Republic

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: She's just the daughter of a billionaire that married the son of the ex-king of Greece (Greece is a republic since 1974, so king of Greece no longer exists), how does this makes her crown princess of Greece? 79.167.189.17 (talk) 10:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is she crown princess of Greece?