Talk:Tsamiko

message: is this Cham in Albanian?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 02:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this Cham in Albanian

message: I suggest this should be moved back to Tsamiko. For better or worse, these items are much better known in the English-speaking world under their Greek names than under the Albanian. This is no judgment on what is more "original" or which national tradition is more valuable, it just happens to be the case that Greek culture is better known abroad. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the albanian form, it is the English form of the name. It has no sense to bee in Greek, when it is not a originally Greek dance. In google, there are 39.000 hits with tsamiko, which means that this dance is not known worldwide. It should be proper to use the Albanian name, but since this is english wiki, the english name is fine.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  But is it the English form? I have heard "Tsamiko" in English. I've never heard "Cham dance". In fact, checking on Google, it seems that "Cham dance" is the name of something entirely different, some  Tibetan dance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have heard cham dance in english. Tsamiko is just a rewording of "valle çame", the albanian word, so is nonsense to be the name of the dance.Balkanian`s word (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm afraid it is not up to you to decide what is or isn't "nonsense" in English. Leave that to the English speakers. You seem still to be thinking that our usage should reflect what is more "original". It shouldn't. It should reflect what is more common, and only that. On that count, "Tsamiko" beats "Cham" by a very wide margin. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is the margin? valle çame in google has more than 100 thousand hits, tsamiko has less than 40 thousand hits.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  How did you search that? Googling for "valle çame" (in quotes, of course) gives 15,900 hits for me; of the first few, more than half are actually the English word came in connection with some other meaning of valle and have no relation at all with this topic. Among the rest, many are pages in Albanian and thus irrelevant to the question of English usage. Try searching Google books too: Lots of entries for Tsamiko, including academic works as well as others; not a single one for either "valle çame" or "cham dance" (except for the Tibetan ones.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  SO, in your point of view, 39 thousand hits in google, and 35 hits in google scholar are notable, in order to be "the english version"?Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It has nothing to do with notability. Notability is about whether the dance as such is notable enough to warrant an article (which I presume it does). What we are talking about is the name. Since there is no other contender for the "English version" that fares any better than "Tsamiko", yes, of course, that'll be the one. Your proposal of "Cham dance" boils down to simply inventing a name that nobody out there seems to be using. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But tsamiko cannot be the "english version" since there are so little hits, most of which are just translations of greek pages, or videos. What I did in here, was that, since neither the greek, nor the albanian name is the "english version", as asked byt "WP use english", I made it in the english form of the word (which is cham). Tsamiko or Vallja Came is not popular in english, and the google test confirms it. Hence, "the dance of the chams" is normal to have a neme of the article which is "cham (dance)".Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

text: WOH? Google test showen thath they were too little. But try to see the results. The huge majority was youtube, greek pages, and only very few were english pages. This means that this is not the temr english use, it is the term greeks use, when they speak english, it is the same as "vallja çame", or ["cham dance" albania] in google. It is not true that this is the term used in english!Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

text: PS. You can prove it easily, wherever there is a page which speaks about the Tsamiko, it says that "Tsamides" were the creator. Hence, "cham" is the english term, it means that the users of "tsamides" and not of "cham", use even tsamiko, i.e. it is used by greeks in transleted-to-english pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  End of discussion, this is not making any progress. I'm moving back. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move back 

message: Tsamiko is not the english version, as I pointed out in the previous disccussion and the move back by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise is unexplained. I propose moving the page to Vallja çame, or Cham (dance).Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Cham (dance) has been redirected to the real Cham Dance, the Tibetan one. When English speakers say "cham dance", they invariably mean that, and not the Balkanian one. Yet another reason why that title doesn't make any sense for this article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This does not mean that "Tsamiko" is the english version. If neither "cham dance" is the english version, than Vallja came is the most propriate.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are repeating yourself, and not getting more persuasive all the while. Give it up already, this is not leading anywhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Again no answer! I am not giving up, as long, as I have arguments, and as long, as I know that I am right. Let me repeat myself clearly, in case that you have not seen the question: "Google test showen thath they were too little. But try to see the results. The huge majority was youtube, greek pages, and only very few were english pages. This means that this is not the temr english use, it is the term greeks use, when they speak english, it is the same as "vallja çame", or ["cham dance" albania] in google. It is not true that this is the term used in english! You can prove it easily, wherever there is a page which speaks about the Tsamiko, it says that "Tsamides" were the creator. Hence, "cham" is the english term, it means that the users of "tsamides" and not of "cham", use even tsamiko, i.e. it is used by greeks in transleted-to-english pages." Please answer!Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For the millionth-and-fifth time: "cham" isn't the English name, because NOBODY FUCKING USES IT. Grow up. The world is as it is, not as you wish it to be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For the millionth-and-fifth time: I am not asking you if "cham" is the English name, but I am saying that Tsamiko is used by no English-speaker because NOBODY FUCKING USES IT. I am not talking about the "cham", i am talking about "tsamiko", which is used only by greeks, even in english pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is simply not true. "Tsamiko(s)" is used by everybody in the literature who ever has occasion to talk about the dance. By the way, when we were reviewing the google pages, we both forgot that the actual Greek term is "Tsamikos", not "Tsamiko". Add the google results for "Tsamikos" to the others. Again, lots of entries on Google books, from international academic literature not in Greek or by Greeks. As opposed to ZERO hits for either of your versions. Really, show me at least one before you go on here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Albania has been closed and backward for the last decades and greek emmigraton has distributed the greek version of the original dance . Don't you think it is time to put history back where it belongs and give the real history and legend of the dance where it belongs. As a reader inquiring for the dance I would be delighted to have more details and history of the dance in Wikipedia.(Lceliku (talk) 14:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Tsamiko is not the english version

message: There was a consensus on this page about the name. I do not know if Sarandioti has any argument for this redirecting. If yes, please state it. Otherwise it should be redirected to Tsamiko, or to another form.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Usually as a rule of the thumb the name means origin. Example Americans speak English even if you could argument that what they speak is so different from UK English as Swedish is from Norwegian.--Lceliku (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  redirecting 

message: I would have never thought that the Greek National Anthem was taken from a Cham Dance and the Greek National wear and fustanella from the Albanian Chams. Hmm interesting. I will see if I can include the adjustment of Greek Nathional anthem Wiki section in my future projects. For the moment will only try to get some more references.--Lceliku (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Greek national anthem isn't a Tsamiko. It's a tune in the style of a 19th-century Italian operatic march, which just happens to be in 3/4 meter. Its actual rhythm isn't particularly Tsamiko-like, and it's usually played significantly faster than a typical Tsamiko dance, but I suppose that like any other 3/4 tune you can turn it into something danceable as a Tsamiko if you twist the performance a bit – just like you could turn it into a Waltz. Note that the only feature that links it to a Tsamiko is the 3/4 meter – which is exactly the most notable feature that the Greek Tsamiko dance does not share with its native Albanian/Cham counterparts (which are apparently 2/4). Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Thank you it is clear. Just a question; couldn't it just have evolved in time (e.g. like American English to the Original English language but it is still called English and there is no doubt it has originated from UK), so the Tsamiko originated from the Cham Albanians and then developed the 3.4 meter in stead of the 2.4 meter in the Cham counterpart ? I am Canadian and in the French spoken in Quebec I could find as many 3.4 meteres as you want to justify it is not French but another language but we still call it French , if you see what I mean. But anyways I am not an ethnographist or historian and only 40 years old, so I will leave it up to you professionals.--Lceliku (talk) 05:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Surprise

message: I'll add a 19th century painting that depicts some guys dancing Tsamiko, next days. Perhaps posting personal stuff in here isn't a good idea at all.Alexikoua (talk) 14:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: Ok, Alexi I reverted you because you had reverted me in entering the Albania Wikiproject. I'll explain to you why this has to stay in the Albanian Wikiproject. The first sentence of the article is wrong: It is stating that it is a dance of Greece, which means the "dance of the Cham Albanians". If it is the dance of the Cham Albanians, it is used by the Cham Albanians first. Since the Cham Albanians are Albanians, and since there are a lot of Cham Albanians who live in Albania and have spread this dance throughout Albania (I will post some videos of how the dance is performed in Albanian weddings), this has to be covered by the Albanian Wikiproject as well as the Greek one. Hope I was clear. --Sulmues Let's talk  14:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh man, this is frustrating. We've discussed this millions of times. Can't you guys watch a dance and count to three? Watch an Albanian "Cham dance". Count to two. Watch a Greek "Tsamiko". Count to three. They are entirely different dances. Just listen to the music. Listen. Try to dance a "Cham dance" to the music of a Greek Tsamiko. Or vice versa. It just doesn't work. We are dealing with different dances, which share only the etymology of the name (and some elements of the style and posture of the steps). The Greek Tsamiko is named after the style of Cham dancing, but it isn't Cham dancing. It's different. Is this really so difficult to grasp? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I will take your word for it, I thought it was the same thing. Rv myself. So basically I have to start the Cham Dance article and bring my videos there? --Sulmues Let's talk  14:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought Balkanian`s word already created one? Lemme see, it must be somewhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:56, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

text: Yeah, it seems he only created Dance of Osman Taka in the end. BTW, sorry for being so impatient just now, but I really thought you had been following those discussions with B.w. earlier. Our last was here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Under Albania Wikiproject 

message: Is there a way - I can link to the information shared about the dance tsamikos but discuss it's regional differences in execution, improvisation, music styles, etc. As a Tsamikos from Central and Southern Greece is very different from a Tsamikos in Northern Greece, women's variations are different from the men's etc. I want to link these to the research and of course videos of the various versions. Is there a way someone could help me with this - I'm not very wiki friendly, haven't been on here for a while... Greekdancer (talk) 08:05, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. We could certainly include such information, provided the sources you have meet our standards of reliability – i.e. we need book or journal publications discussing these dance styles, not just videos demonstrating them. Please note that I had to revert your changes just now, firstly because the additions were still unsourced and secondly because you accidentally(?) removed all the existing content of the article when inserting yours. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Request