Talk:Babak Khorramdin/Archive 1

message: Your reverts are pov. Please do not remove the passages about abu muslim. He was defenitly a very important factor in khorram-din movement's idealogy.
Al khorrami is simply the arabic version of the persian khorrami. Google hits does not prove anything. Although there is nothing wrong with mentioning different versions of the name. please don't remove other peoples inputs.
    Oops, there is no POV - the passage was removed accidentally however during your reversion my linking has disappeared but it doesn't matter. I've recently read that Babek's birthday is celebrated on June 4-5. Is there any reference prooving this? Brand 23:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

message: Hi. I've made a few additions and changes based on at Tabari's History. I've only so far drawn on at Tabari's account of the reign of al-Mu'tasim. This covers only the last few years and the death of Babak. At Tabari may not have as much about the earlier years, but he does have something. I'll check this and add what seems good later. Peace. Gallador 19:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari 

message: The part: Ancient historical figure and modern nationalistic debates is not scientific and I do not think any journal has referred to such a debate.  Indeed it is useless debate since Azerbaijanis have Persian/Iranian heritage as well.  (According to Swietchowski it is harmonic symbosis of Iranian and Turkic culture and Planhol has said the ratio seems to be more Iranian but acknwoledges the other factor).   Babak Khorramdin according to classical sources is called Persian (Ibn Hazm, Vardapet) and also Encyclopedia of Islam, and other scholars.  I don't think that is an issue between historians.  Simply the language of Azerbaijan before Turkification was mainly Middle Persian dialects and also Babak's father was from Mada'in (Sassanid capital of Iraq) according to oldest sources.  Also the article should focus on the history of what babak did.  So I am going to fix this article and make it more encyclopedic.--alidoostzadeh 02:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  He was PERSIAN 

message: I created the article for the movie: Babek (film). Therefore, I removed the movie section of the article, as this article is about Babak the person, not the movie. I'll expand the movie article later.Azerbaijani 17:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Movie

message: Vacio, before inserting POV OR next time, please, provide sources for the claim. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 23:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Turned in for reward

message: His true Name is Papak and not Babak.in the years of the arab invasion the change the p to a b.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RaidenFM (talk • contribs) 13:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the texts it is written as a B, but the Arabic based Persian Alphabet at that time was not well developed at that time and did not contain the letter P. It is now pronounced with a B. We do not know whether the sound shift had occurred at his time or not. Any way it was post-Islamic time, so it seems probable that the sound shift has already happened.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Babak change to Papak

message: I have reverted a rather unencyclopedic edit by a user. Tajik (talk) 18:36, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  RV 

message: I think we need a part dealing with Babak's idolisation as an historically erroneous proletarian and proto-communist Turkic leader in Azerbaijan SSR. The heritage of this idolisation lives on among Azerbaijani Turkish nationalists in the Republic of Azerbaijan as well as Iran. Behemoth (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Idolisation in Azerbaijani SSR 

message: User tajik has changed Babak's birthplace from Iran to greater Iran. This POV edit should be reverted, his birthplace was Iran whether he likes Iran or not, as greater Iran article itself is nothing more than a POV push of the afghan nationalists, saying Iran and greater Iran is not the same, and Iran is just a modern state of greater Iran and nothing more. 
All references to Greater Iran and the article itself should be changed to "Iranian Cultural Continent" which is exactly what Encyclopædia Iranica calls it. The way these editors have made it seem for example by changing the birthplaces of national heroes and scientists is that greater Iran was a country itself which is inaccurate. Iranica is referring to the spread of Iranian culture not to a country of some sort. The same region was called Iran back then and was occupied by Iranians/Persians. Modern Iran is the same as historical Iran, its just smaller.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.159.184 (talk) 19:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Born in Iran 

message: The headline: "Babak and modern nation building" is simply incorrect. None of the sources use the term "modern nation building". And the section is not about "nation building". Its even ironic that the Soviet Union would want to create an Azerbaijani nation within the Soviet Union. I suggest this headline to be changed to "Legacy", it is not only more objective and general but the same approach is done in many other articles.Neftchi (talk) 15:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I made the edit to 'legacy'. Neftchi (talk) 19:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  modern nation building ? 

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations 
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thread_title: File:Babek Opera Azerbaijan.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: An image used in this article, File:Babek monument.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012 
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thread_title: File:Babek monument.JPG Nominated for Deletion

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Babak Khorramdin's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "IranicaOsrushana":
From Osrushana: C. Edmund Bosworth (2005), "Osrušana", in Encyclopaedia Iranica.  Online Accessed November 2010  Quote 1: "The region was little urbanized, and it long preserved its ancient Iranian feudal and patriarchal society".  Quote 2: "At the time of the Arab incursions into Transoxania, Osrušana had its own line of Iranian princes, the Afšins (Ebn Ḵordāḏbeh, p. 40), of whom the most famous was the general of the caliph Moʿtaṣem (q.v. 833-42), the Afšin Ḵayḏar or Ḥaydar b. Kāvus (d. 841; see Afšin)", "The region was little urbanized, and it long preserved its ancient Iranian feudal and patriarchal society."
From Khaydhar ibn Kawus al-Afshin: C. Edmund Bosworth(2005), "OSRUŠANA" in Encyclopædia Iranica.  Accessed November 2010  "At the time of the Arab incursions into Transoxania, Osrušana had its own line of Iranian princes, the Afšins (Ebn Ḵordāḏbeh, p. 40), of whom the most famous was the general of the caliph Moʿtaṣem (q.v. 833-42), the Afšin Ḵayḏar or Ḥaydar b. Kāvus (d. 841; see AFŠIN)", "The region was little urbanized, and it long preserved its ancient Iranian feudal and patriarchal society. "
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 09:57, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Babak Khorramdin]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Right now, the text Iran mentions Iranian all the time Iran at every Iran possible Iranian turn Iran. It's not going to be easy to reformat that what with the citations being heavy and in-text (I tried but gave up because it was a jungle out there), but whoever wrote that: please consider the flow of the text. The reader will understand from fewer mentions that he was Iranian and that this is about a rebellion of Persians against (at least nominally) Arab rulers. Ok, it's lots of things in addition to that, but I'm addressing whoever seems to be worrying that maybe we missed the fact that the guy was an Iranian in what's now modern Iran. "Iranian" itself is a problematic term, since it's been far more prominent in only the past few centuries--when it's someone medieval I'd probably default to "Persian" as his ideas of ethnicity/nationality would've been different to ours. (And that's before we even address the conflict of interest when it's a guy more than one ethnic/cultural group wants to claim as theirs, and the poor self-esteem issues the fights over various historical figures--and whatever camps various groups want to appropriate these people into--always bring out.) In any case, the term "Iranian" doesn't need to be mentioned 40+ times in an article that, with one glance, makes it clear to the reader that this is medieval Persia being talked about. Yes, feel free to mention the fact that he was an Iranizing influence, because he did contribute to that, but it's his life story from a NPOV that should be the point of the article, and the text should flow well. Right now, the lede itself mentions "Iran" or "Persia" seven or eight times, when two or three would do to make the same points, and most of the citations center on the Iranianness of everything rather than the historical events themselves. I came here to read about a historical figure's life and what exactly it was that he did, and get someone constantly yelling "IRAN!" at me when I just want to read the story--a story I already know is about that part of the world. The rest of the article is written in a highly apologetic manner as well, clearly from the POV of someone who values him as a national hero--but that's not NPOV and needs to be changed, with more neutral sources that report the situation from the Abbasid side as well (who would've considered him a fanatic troublemaker and killer). The NPOV is somewhere between these two. Stay on topic, save the debates over the ethnicities for the end of the article.--Snowgrouse (talk) 04:30, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs serious copyediting for style and NPOV 

message: "Babak's uprising showed the continuing strength in Azerbaijan of ancestral Iranian local feelings." My interpretation of this is that during the time of the uprising there was no Iranians living in Azerbaijan but the people living their are the descendants of Iranians. If this is true, Azerbaijan (as in Iranian Azerbaijan) has and always was Iranian, this sentence doesn't make much sense to me. I think it should be re-worded to "Babaks uprising shows today the continuing strength of ancestral Iranian feelings in The Republic of Azerbaijan" because it is the people of The Republic of Azerbaijan (which have adopted the name Azerbaijan for their country and adopted the name Azerbaijani for their ethnicity) that believe they are the descendants of Iranians but not Iranians, not the people of Iranian Azerbaijan. Migboy123 (talk) 09:28, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Wut, this didn't take place in the present day Republic of Azerbaijan, the cities mentioned during Babak's lifetime alone make this quite clear. Also, you can't add something the said source doesn't actually state. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone explain this to me