Talk:List of patter songs

message: There are no sources for any of these songs indicating that they meet the requirements of a patter song.  Not even the G&S songs. I suspect all the G&S songs listed are patter songs, but not every G&S song was.  Gavroche42 (talk) 12:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Old comment

message: I notice that there is a bit of an 'edit war' going on over this article. I have been collecting G&S related material for over 30 years and performing the operas for as long, and I can state that "Rising early in the morning" from The Gondoliers is regarded as a patter song. Please do not revert where there is a dispute without discussing on the talk page. That's how things are done here. Thanks. Jack1956 (talk) 07:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with Jack. A metronome or stopwatch and a representative sample of recordings  would show that "Rising Early in the Morning" contains more syllables to the minute than many of the other patter songs listed in the article, including “Bin Akademiker, Doktor und Chemiker”; “Well, you're a pretty kind of fellow”; “At the outset I may mention”; “When I Was a Lad”; “If you give me your attention”; “Henceforth all the crimes that I find in The Times”; “When I; good friends; was called to the bar”; and “I've wisdom from the East and from the West”. Tim riley (talk) 13:41, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Can we get a consensus on whether any of the other songs on the list should be deleted?  Please see the criteria at Patter song.  I would keep "When I was a Lad", Gama's song and Judge's song, since they are classic "catalogue" numbers that recite the character's rise to power, and they have a steady, sustained rhythm, even though not blazingly fast.  As for "Henceforth all the crimes", I have to disagree: that is super fast if sung correctly.  Also, there are a lot of rather obscure numbers listed here that I have never heard: are they all patter songs at all?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The pre-Savoy ones: the Cornelius, Donizetti, Mozart and Rossini all qualify, in my view. I don't know the Glinka and could very easily be persuaded that the Schubert isn't patter. The Savoy list seems right as it is. Of the post G&S numbers, I am familiar with the Coward, German, Lehrer, and Weill which I think are rightly included. The Fauré comes as a surprise - I must go and check it: he wasn't usually an up-tempo man. I cannot offer any opinion on the others. Tim riley (talk) 17:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: BigHaz: I basically disagree with 1 above, agree with 2, strongly disagree with 3, disagree with 4.  Basically agree with 5, although the two gondoliers are certainly comic characters as well as romantic characters.  6 shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.  Giuseppe is a baritone, and rising early is a baritone song.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so your opinion is that it meets the criteria. Mine is that it does not. At this point, we need sources to include something as a fact, since that's the way these things work. And if you want to repeat that claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, then go right ahead. Given that there is a dispute about whether it's a fact or not, the song shouldn't be in the list. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Cite added.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:47, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems a patter song to me.  It at least marginally fulfils all the criteria cited above (yes, the orchestra does a bit more than in many patter songs, but I don't think that disqualifies it).  And Giuseppe is a baritone.  It walks like a duck, it quacks like same, it is a patter song.  I'm not sure why the dispute.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What is a patter song?

message: If Bruces' Philosophers Song is a patter song, then I suppose Cartman's "Kyle's Mom" song must be as well... though I don't see how either fits the definition given in the Patter Song article... MarcelB612 (talk) 06:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed Bruce's Philosophers Song based on the above.  I imagine there are lots of examples from the "modern" song section that should not be on this list, but I don't know some of them and can't eliminate them without some assistance.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:21, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ruckblick" ?! Its syllabic and fast-ish (but marked "nicht zu geschwind") yes, but it's about as funny as a kick in the teeth. In my terrifically humble opinion this should be cut! Or, if not, given its umlaut on the "u" almost-instinct 21:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Patter songs don't have to be funny.  I'll put in the umlaut.  I agree that it's borderline in some ways, but it does require superb diction, which is, I think, the main criterion.  If we're going to trim the list down, I'd like to trim down the more recent examples!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing bad examples 

message: Oh heck, more deletionitis. Another page catches the bug. How is "Rattlin' Bog" not a patter song? Esperanto41 (talk) 08:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi.  That song is not even described in the The Irish Descendants article.  If it's an important patter song and is referred to by WP:Reliable sources as a patter song, write an article about it, and we'll be happy to add it to the list.  We can't list every patter song, just the well-known ones - otherwise people would not be able to find the important ones.  As you can see from the above discussion, everyone has different ideas as to what to include and what to cut.  If you can get a consensus, or even a couple of other people who think that a particular song is very important, and it is discussed in a properly referenced article on Wikipedia, we will be happy to add it.  All the songs here are, I think, at least discussed in articles on Wikipedia.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleteophilia 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on List of patter songs. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080623031308/https://www.gsarchive.net/gondoliers/html/gn_02.html to https://www.gsarchive.net/gondoliers/html/gn_02.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080515231447/http://www.cris.com/~oakapple/gasdisc/ms_eddy.htm to http://www.cris.com/~oakapple/gasdisc/ms_eddy.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080515231447/http://www.cris.com/~oakapple/gasdisc/ms_eddy.htm to http://www.cris.com/~oakapple/gasdisc/ms_eddy.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060507123637/http://www.cris.com/%7eOakapple/gasdisc/ms_green.htm to https://web.archive.org/web/20060507123637/http://www.cris.com/%7eOakapple/gasdisc/ms_green.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:36, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Recent edits that have been made to this page suggest that the goal of some editors here is to delete any entries that are not well sourced. In response to this, I will make it my goal to thoroughly, exhaustively source any and all unsourced entries in this article. Phantomred (talk) 9:18 7 Feb 2018
:That would be extremely useful.  It needs to be clear from the source that the item is, according to a WP:RS, a patter song.  All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding sources instead of deleting entries

message: Personally, I think this song fits all 6 of the criteria from the main article listed above (it's played allegro vivace, each syllable = one note, has tongue-twister-like humorous rhymes, the only accompaniment is piano which is playing the same notes as are sung, it's a showpiece for a comedian who is also a baritone), but I could only find one source referring to it as a patter song, which isn't really a good source, as it is a song list from a program of patter songs which includes "Ill Wind" along with mostly G&S songs, with a few Tom Lehrer, Noel Coward, etc. songs, which was published by Richard Stuart (a professional singer and "patterman") on his own website as an example of what he might perform in one of his "A Matter of Patter" shows. So, I'm not sure what to do in this situation, I just left it as is. ElfLady64 (talk) 22:25, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you can cite Richard Suart's website, on the basis that he is a recognized expert in patter roles. He actually wrote a book of alternate versions of Koko's little list song. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:02, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flanders & Swann: Ill Wind 

message: I disagree with listing Schubert's "Rückblick" as a patter-song.  Sure, it's fast and wordy, but that is not the point of the song. Similarly, patter is not the point of Flanders and Swann's "Ill Wind"; the point is that the tune is the same as the horn concerto. HandsomeMrToad (talk) 08:38, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Please let us know if you see any other such items on the list. -- Ssilvers (talk) 09:52, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two songs wrongly listed as patter-songs (IMHO) 

message: I separated the section After G&S into After G&S: Selected showtunes and After G&S: Selected popular and classical music. I believe separating these genres makes the list easier to read. I am also trying to increase the representation of showtunes in this article - many widely regarded patter songs are not listed - and reduce the amount of popular music, many of which aren't cited/are not patter songs. Phantomred (talk) 12:47, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rearranging sections and working on article