Talk:White people/Archive 3

message: People who were Sicilian, Italian, Portuguese, and Greek swarmed United States for immigration. Actually, 5 million Italians immigrated to United States, in a short period of time during the late 1800's, early 1900's. Considering that the United States was racist at the time, dont you think they would have limited migrants from these areas if they were not considered white. I am biracial, of Black, and Italian ancestry.
Italians, Portuguese, and Spanish are considered somewhat non-white in Australia. The reason why they were denoted as Wogs, was because they were of non-Anglo origin. Australians call Polish, Serbians, Russians, Wog too, and that is because they are Slavik, not Anglo. There are 1 million Italians in Australia or 5 per cent of the population, a big number, and we cant deny that Natalie Imbruglia is'nt white, because she is, and she is an Italian. 
In Canada, many see Italian people as tanned skinned, but many realise that northern Italy, have more Nordic looking people, while southern Italians have darker complexions. Some Noridicists think that because North Africa has close proximity with south Europe, they think that they are mixed with Arab groups of North Africa. Has anyone considered that the Arabs of North Africa are mixed with Europeans, giving many with blue eyes, and light hair and light skin, because they are.
America was named after Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci. There is no way that Americans or anyone would admit nameing their country after a non-white. On the website below it shows how the White Australia Policy encouraged Europeans of all kinds to enter the country, because SOUTHERN ITALIANS, and other southern Europeans were considered sunburnt whites. To see, Anglo looking Italians, who are from both the north and the south, see websites below.
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Adrian, January 12, 2006
:It seems to me there are three sorts who are most apt to encourage this idea that dark or ethnic whites (ie. Italians, Irish, Greeks, Spaniards, Near Easterners, etc.) aren't or weren't always regarded as white. The most significant would be the Whiteness studies crowd, virtually all of whom are themselves white males, usually Jewish or WASP ethnically and far to the left politically (though they speak as expert authorities about other communities, such as the traditionally conservative Italian-American and Irish-American, Catholic communities). Why do they promote this incredibly divisive, revisionist anthropology that only the palest of whites have historically been regarded as white (with the absurd exception of the Irish -who are almost certainly THE palest of whites)? I suspect it is to encourage the largest possible percentage of the population to imagine themselves somehow outside the mainstream, disenfranchised and even despised, as this would tend to maximize the ranks of those amenable to left wing ideology. After all, it would be a great coup for the left to manipulate the traditionally conservative white ethnic working class into thinking of themselves as oppressed minorities. The second and less significant source would be a small segment of the black community, which seems to relish the spectre of ethnic whites being construed as 'non-whites', perhaps because they see this as a fragmenting of the white race (which they percieve as their enemy), or because they derive a perverse sense of pride out of identifying with white ethnics. It is telling that so many black rappers should demonise whites in general while praising or emulating white Italian mobsters. One gets the sense that they would rather be Italian than black, but recognize that the next best thing is Italians being considered 'black', or at least 'not white'. The third and least significant source would be a small segment of white ethnics themselves, some of whom encourage the idea that they are something other than white. This is to be expected given such recent social influences as identity politics, political correctness, and the hip hop culture, all of which reinforce the notion that 'white' is a 'bad thing' to be; that whites are generally racist and 'un-hip'.
::Can someone tell me what you two are talking about? Are either of you even Italian or ethnic? Why do you people feel the need to comment on the "whiteness" or "blackness" of other races? I'm sorry, but you don't have that authority, and neither does anyone else. "Limited migrants?" What are you talking about? Hispanics are one of the largest immigrant groups (in other words, not "limited migrants") in America, but they are not considered white. And by the way, the US government DID in fact place immigration laws to prevent Italians from coming to America. All I can say is that dark, Mediterranean Italians, who make up much of the Italian-American migrants today, are not really considered "white" in many middle class, predominately "white" neighborhoods. I know this first hand. Who are you to comment on my ethnicity? Have either of you lived as an Italian? Have either of you been outside of your sheltered little environments? As far as I have seen, in mainstream American culture Italians have never been considered "white." They are swarthy criminals, "guidos," and thugs. You racists accuse African-Americans and different people of trying to "fragment" the "white" race, but you seem like you are just trying to unite what you see as a "white" race by playing on the Italians' racial ambiguity. Do you fear minorities so much that you have to convince Italians to join your "white" race? Do you just not want the liability of having another minority in America? As an Italian, I do not look "white" and culturally, I've had problems fitting in with mainstream "whites." In my personal experience, Italians have never socially or racially been your definition of "white" in America.
I will try to help, friend. May I suggest, if you cannot understand standard American English, copy pasting the words into Alta Vista's "Babel Fish" translator, and choosing "English to Ebonics" translation. Hope helps? :) 
What is your ethnicity this week? You seem black in most of your other posts in other articles (most of which are Afro-American themed). Seems we have another black who "wishes dey wuz Ah-tah'-yin" (Ebonics to English translation: 'wishes they were Italian'). I'm glad you posted this, as at least it proves creatures such as yourself do in fact exist. You're out of your &^$% mind, dude. Being black isn't that bad is it?
The reason you don't look white is because you're not Italian, but some black guy who wishes he was Italian, or at least, that Italians (or "Ah-tah'-yins" as many African-Americans might say) were considered non-white. I know a lot of blackies like to imagine a kinship with Italians, but "you iz ri-dic-ulous" ;) . BTW, where were you when Rudy Guiliani was mayor of NYC? If only you blackies and Hispanics realized he wasn't white, a lot of racial tension might've been averted! LOL.
For the record:(1) I am Greek (2) I guess middle class white Americans just don't realize that  Antonin Scalia, newly  confirmed justice Alito, Rudy Giuliani, Al D'Amato, Mario Cuomo, Geraldine Ferraro..... aren't white. (3) I don't believe for a second you're Italian - you're black. Some blacks have a peculiar fixation with Italians;  they like to imagine Italians as distant cousins of theirs. They look in the mirror and see a dark face, thick lips, and tightly nit hair (featuires which many find attractive) and wish instead they saw a sexy, swarthy dark Mediterranean with thick lips. (4) I googled your IP and you seem African-American. In the future, if you want to claim to be Italian, use a different IP when you post as a black.
:Why do you keep bringing up the whole cope-out "America was named after an Italian" issue?  That has nothing to do with whether Italians are white or not. All throughout America, there are cities, states, rivers, and streets named after Native American tribes. That doesn't make Native Americans white, now does it? America and the world in general has changed very much since America was named after Vespucci. African tribes were once very great, but that doesn't mean black people in America are treated any better. Italians once discovered and named land masses, but that doesn't mean they are treated any "whiter" in America. I'm not trying to force you to sympathize with Italians in America. I could care less. And I'm not saying all Italians are non-white. But most of the Medditerranean immigrants known as Italians are really not very "white" at all. I am Italian and I have brown skin. This is not a bad or racist thing. If you are able to argue over the "whiteness" of a people, then I think they are ambiguous enough that they can be considered at least socially and at most racially non-white. Oh, and, no, I am not African-American, but if I was I would be very proud of my own culture. You are a racist. And that you assume I'm Black simply because of my ideas..well, I won't even say anything.
::Because the country is named after an Italian. Correct; it is understood that European Spaniards are white, and persons mixed with Indians or blacks are not. The reason those areas have Spanish names is because white racist Spaniards got there before white racist Englishman. Both sodomized your ancestors. LOL - The status of Italians has fallen? All sane folk would agree that in any case, their status would have been at it's lowest at the turn of the 19th to 20th century, when they were largley newly arrived immigrants. It has only risen since - even the looniest racial revisionists would acknowledge this. You are in a class by yourself! Imagine a white guy trying to convince American blacks that Jamaicans weren't really black - thats what you sound like. Whites know their own kind - much love - but you're making an ass of yourself, dude. While just 1 in 10 Americans is Italian-American, 2 of 9 Supreme court Justices are Italian-American. Get a firmer grip, my African friend - stop being so envious of other races. Blacks have things to be proud of as well, I am sure.
:::You sound like a white supremacist... even though you are Greek and would hardly fall under that category.- Unsigned
__
:Just because there are Italian on the supreme court does not make Italians white. There are Blacks on the supeme court, too. What is your point? Italians have the third highest drop out rate in America, along ith Blacks and Hispanics, and many Italian Americans live in low-income neighborhoods. I am a Southern Italian. I agree that it is now less of a culture shock for Anglicized Italians to mix with Anglos and whites now, but the same can be said of Anglicized Blacks, Anglicized Hispanics, and Anglicized Asians. Let's face it, Southern Italians and Mediterranean people have not always been and still are not always considered mainstream "all-American" (or "all-Canadian") white. Italians in North America, for the most part, have a unique culture and look that does not always blend in. And that is not a bad thing at all. I feel sorry for other Italians living in North America who are so self-conscious about their identity and appearence that they decide to argue fiercely that they are "white." Real Southern Italians are just as non-white as many Middle Easterners, Northern Indians, and Hispanics. (Oh, and Middle Easterners are legally considered "white" as well, but ask any person on the street whether a Middle Easterner is white and he will most likely reply "no." And what working class, down-on-his-luck, uneducated Middle Easterner or Southern Italian will have the cajones to debate with the government whether he is white? Isn't that the goal in the USA? To be "white?" Wouldn't it be an instant meal ticket to be designated "white"? Despite what they may hope for, no, apparently not. Italians and Middle Easterners may not be considered white in social situations or in white neighborhoods. But why should the government designate them as non-white if the groups are not complaining? That's less affirmative action and minorities they would have to deal with, right?) Italians and Middle Easterners may "legally" be "white", but that doesn't help much in social situations, does it? Since you are not of Italian descent, maybe you do not feel this way. (Nothing wrong with that at all.) But any Southern Italian who is proud of his culture and dark complexion, understands his past, or has had an ethnic slur shouted in his face should agree that he is not "white." 
The definition of "white" is often cultural. There's a significant difference between Latin and Germanic cultures, as there is between European and Middle Eastern/North African cultures; and in a predominantly Anglo society that considers itself characteristically "white", others who are perceived as culturally different, like people of Latin origin, might necessarily be "non-white". Hence, even though there's hardly a consistent pattern of physical appearance that can be observed to distinguish Southern Europeans from Northern Europeans (likewise, in many cases, between Europeans and Middle Easterners/North Africans - see my older post here), a majority culture may reserve one of its most salient self-designations for itself and deny that a group that is physically identical to it yet culturally different also shares that characteristic. In other words, since race is a big deal to most cultures, as it has been to the predominantly Anglo United States and Canadian societies, a group's own self-ascribed racial designation may stop where another's cultural one begins. --Jugbo 04:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italians and Southern Europeans as White 

message: The sentence "Nevertheless, it has been shown that the same individual's perceived skin tone lightens and darkens on the Brazilian census depending on the rise and fall of his or her socioeconomic success. In short, it is proven statistically that money whitens, at least in Brazil" is followed by a reference to footnote 28. However, the footnotes only seem to go to 27. Has the reference been lost in later edits, or has it never been there? Has this indeed been shown, or is this bullshit? Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 10:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Judging by the style, I'd say that's a Frank Sweet sentence. The note has probably been lost at some point. Paul B 10:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be note 27, and the previous one should be note 26. The numbering system adopted here is a recipe for chaos, as passages containing some of the notes are bound to be deleted at some stage, which means the whole system will become increasingly messed-up over time. Paul B 11:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose that I should have foreseen this. On the one hand anything that disputes someone's prejudices is going to be challenged, so the only hope that a smattering of verifiable knowledge survives in this article is to cite unimpeachable sources. (And even this is not enough, since even Oscar Handlin--the greatest historian of Irish-American assimilation--did not survive the idealogues.) On the other hand, paragraphs get moved around, deleted, and reinserted. So, how can anyone cite references without its leading to chaos? Any suggestion or advice will be appreciated. Is there some Wiki trick that will solve this, or do I just insert the interminable footnotes right into the text itself? -- Frank W Sweet 19:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait a minute. I just discovered http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes . I shall try it out. -- Frank W Sweet 20:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It is not bullshit. The finding was reported in the most presitigious peer-reviewed scholarly journal of social history in the United States. You will find the data in George Reid Andrews, "Racial Inequality in Brazil and the United States: A Statistical Comparison," Journal of Social History 26, no. 2 (1992): 229-63. If the topic honestly interests you, and a visit to your local public or college library is inconvenient, then please say so and I will be happy to post here a link to a PDF of the article. -- Frank W Sweet 11:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Footnote 28?

message: Gays, Leftists, students, criminals, and animals should also be considered nonwhite. There is some spiritual evidence to support the idea that these workers are not white, and that 'white' (or more accurately 'formerly white') 'liberals' are actually darker in complexion than their unrepentent 'white' co-workers.
:I see. Thank you for your scientific observations. Please wait for the men with the strait-jacket. Paul B 11:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Quite White 

message: According to the Washington Post article, dated Friday, December 16, 2005, a team of scientists from Penn State University have discovered a tiny genetic mutation that explains WHITE SKIN. 
The newly found gene known as SLC24a5 partially controls skin color, a small mutation in the gene, of just one letter of the DNA code, is responsible for one-third of the pigment loss that made black skin white. This mutation explains why people of European ancestry have different coloring than people of African or Asian descent. 
Leaders of the study, state that the work suggests that the skin-whitening mutation occurred by chance in a single individual after the first human exodus from Africa. That means that light skin arose independently at least twice in human evolution, affecting populations with the facial and other traits that today are commonly regarded as the hallmarks of Caucasian and Asian races.
THIS IS A GREAT ARTICLE THAT WILL HELP EXPLAIN WHERE WHITE SKIN ORIGINATED
White people are declining in number these days.
Due to high standard of living in their nations,immigration,intermarriage,low birth rate ,whites will be extinct in another 100 years or less.
:Yay! - no more white people!  But, seriously, care to support your assertion?  You seem to be fantasizing, here, and anyone endowed with common sense would be unlikely to believe what you've said (especially since you left your claim unsupported).  These aren't imminent threats to the existence of white people everywhere, because they aren't occurences that are exclusive to or extreme in white populations.  They are found everywhere, and no group is going to go "extinct" because of them.  --Jugbo 05:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scientists Find DNA Change That Accounts for WHITE SKIN

message: I think this article is missing one important facet of white people culture: What exactly do they eat?  I tried to do any entr about your average white person's favorite foods but I could find no significant resources on the internet.  All I could find are articles that constantly mentioned how much white people like mayonaise and that hardly constitutes anything. Mosquito-001 21:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And don't forget Wonder Bread, lots of sugary stuff (Barbecue sauce, Root Beer, etc.) --Vizcarra 21:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: White people don't universally enjoy the same foods, guys.  To claim otherwise is what's called a stereotype, and those tend to piss people off.  Claiming that a certain food is among the favorite ones of white people in general is like claiming that Latinos like spicy food, or that black people like watermelon and fried chicken.  These are more traditional foods, which would be a more appropriate term when talking about foods that white people (and everyone and anyone, in fact) eat, like Italian or French cuisine (or "American", which is significantly German with hamburgers and hot dogs).  You're not going to find a reliable source listing the favorite foods of white people because, frankly, no one cares (unless it's of some medical or anthropological significance); and a survey or study would likely bring up varied and inconsistent results.   So to answer your question, Mosquito-001, white people eat food. --Jugbo 05:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: This section made me smile. --66.229.183.101 03:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  White people food 

message: So called white people aren't really white, get a piece of paper and see what I mean now get off your high horses. They’re the same shade as pigs. Now I propose a few re categorizations. Vomit yellow, pink or blue.
:This is mentioned in the article. It's explicitly stated that "...the term "White" is a misnomer, as almost all people (regardless of race) have a skin color which is some shade of brown." The designation isn't about arrogance. It's simply a colloquial term referring to relative skin color, as the people we call "white" are (along with some East Asians) the lightest people, just as the people we call "black" are the darkest, rather than literally black. It's also the most practical term, so it isn't going away, regardless of your propositions. --Jugbo 03:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not really white 

message: By the way you can call me Felix, from Latin Felix, Felicis, "the one who has the protection of the gods", and related to Spanish feliz, or Italian felice, just meaning "happy". With a name like that you will understand that I give a damn how you call me: white, brown, black, blue or dull. But this is not a chat. We are here to propose changes to the article and to support it with evidence. Not to present opinions without a single citation. So, I propose working in the part of the article called Criticism of the Term. As you can see I do not want to impose any changes. I am raising the issue for discussion with a goal. And if you do not like my expression in English you can choose between French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese or German. But I guess you will stick to English, because it is the only languge in which you can write. So, let's stop making this personal and stick to the point.
:I created a new subsection because this one is getting unwieldy. Edit away, but remember WP policy, especially WP:NPOV. It would make discussion a lot easier if you would sign your posts, preferebly by creating a user account, which is very easy to do. That way, no-one can confuse your statements with other anonymous contributions. Paul B 14:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who is this "you" and what has been "erased" or "manipulated"? As far as I am aware nothing has been deliberately erased or manipulated on this talk page apart from a passage that was deleted by Misdra13 and immediately added back by Jugbo. Please make clear who or what you are responding to and please sign posts. Paul B 16:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Addendum. I said I was creating a new section, because the old one was too long and unwieldy. This is common procedure. You have to make the break somewhere and I made it clear that it was me who had added it. Nothing was erased at all, but we now have your paragraph twice over. Paul B 17:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Felix

message: One researcher claimed that 30% of white Americans have on average about 2% Negroid ancestry, while the other 70% have no detectable trace of admixture (Mark Shriver in Sailer 2002). According to Shriver, for the US White population as a whole, the average sub-Saharan contribution is about .7%. UPDATE: Shriver now says "about 10 percent of [the European-American population] have some African ancestry" (Wade 2002) -- much lower than his previous claim of 30%. Incidentally, Shriver is now attributing his own African ancestry to "a Mexican grandmother", rather than to runaway slaves as he had implied in the Steve Sailer article. 
[Important] UPDATE II: As more information has come out about DNAprint's "AncestryByDNA" test (Shriver is affiliated with DNAprint, and his findings mentioned above were made using a version of the ABD test), it has become clear that the ABD test absolutely DOES NOT accurately determine low level admixture in individuals. Thus, any statement from Shriver concerning "admixture" in American whites is meaningless. Recent research on Y-chromosomes and mtDNA detected NO black admixture in American whites (Kayser et al. 2003). 
[Important] UPDATE III: A DNAprint executive now claims "Five percent of European Americans exhibit some detectable level of African ancestry" (ABCNEWS.com, Dec. 28 2003). This represents a third downard revision of the proportion of white Americans claimed by DNAprint to have black ancestry. An amazing lack of consistency (30% -> 10% -> 5%) proves the pronouncements of DNAprint employees on the racial ancestry of Americans are unreliable.
Do you also have information about admixture of other races? Or you think that the only non-white admixture is African American? Do you also have information about the level of white and non/white admixture in African Americans? Do you have information about levels of non-white and white admixture in Native-Americans? The issue is much more complicated than black and white. But sure. White Americans have lived together with other races for hundreds of years, but they have not mixed.
And sure enough, 
Fidel Castro is a brown Cuban and Mr. Bush a "white" American, in spite of the Asian features in his eyes: link
:"White Americans have lived together with other races for hundreds of years, but they have not mixed." Are you serious? I'm not quite sure in this narrative where you are being sarcastic. It would nice if discussions were clear, so many agendas contradict one another. It's true that they - along with other US ethnic groups - have mixed less than elsewhere in the world, but since most "black" Americans are actually of mixed European and African ancestry, it's pretty obvious that they have mixed in fact. Paul B 07:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a funny joke. What you meant to say is that "White Americans have lived together with other races for hundreds of years, but white people of this century fail to acknowledge the fact that they have mixed, and opt instead to just ignore the mixtures, or categorize them as "non mixed variations of Caucasoids" or "caucasoids with admixture" when it suits their quest for cultural appropriation. --Zaphnathpaaneah 12:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Updated information''' 

message: I removed the following paragraph:
In addition, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, one of the most important geneticists of the 20th century, has identified ten genetic clusters in the global population: East Asians, Europeans, Inuit or Eskimos, Southeast Asians, Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, South Asians and North Africans, sub-Saharan Africans, southern-African Khoisan and central-African Pygmies, and Australian Aborigines. It should be noted that the European genetic cluster occurs mainly in Europe but also in some areas of the Middle East. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cavalli-SforzaMap.jpg
If anyone can come up with a page number reference to where Cavalli-Sforza claimed to have found ten such specific "clusters," I would agree with restoring the statement. The map has a valid source reference, but it simply shows that people vary geographicaly and depicts no clusters at all. Indeed, it graphically and clearly depicts the absence of any clustering in human geographic variation. -- Frank W Sweet 13:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You utterly miss the point. Cavalli-Sforza's work is very important, and the book cited is a standard reference. I demanded a page number and removed the paragraph because the paragraph was a grotesque fabrication that reversed what the book actually says on page 19. The fact that I removed someone's lies about an important and valuable book does not mean that I disapprove of the book. Surely, this should not be too hard for you to grasp. Put the paragraph back, if you wish, but I shall remove it again. Just how long do you think you can get away with falsifying such an important book before two or three other molecular anthropologists show up here, who also keep copies on their desk as I do, and join me in stopping such a gross and apparently ideologically motivated fabrication? -- Frank W Sweet 05:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Need for Operational Definitions 

message: Would it be controversial to move this page from white (people) to white people? I don't know what is being accomplished by having the parentheses around (people), other than to make it harder to type. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's now White (people), so it should be moved to White people? And no, the currect title is more encyclopedic, so there's no reason to move it. white people is a redirect to this page, so you can actually use that when writing other articles. AucamanTalk 02:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should try to avoid redirects if there's a convenient way to do it. And I don't know what makes "white (people)" more encyclopedic. "White" as a noun seems to be less and less common, and Wikipedia generally favours "... people" without parentheses, e.g. Korean people, French people, Turkish people. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 02:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to [[white people]]? 

message: Removed the following:
Furthermore, while many South Asians are also anthropologically caucasoid, with varying complexions —and recognized as such by the United States Supreme Court—not only are they also excluded from the popular definition of "White", but US government agencies further categorise them as "Asians", be they Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, Christians or Indian Jews. (See also: Race in the US Census). Even outside the American context, this trend of excluding caucasoid South Asians is almost universal, as is the disregarding of a comparable lighter-complexioned phenotypical presence as discussed for North Africa and Southwest Asia.
The term "anthropologically caucasoid" has not been used in science for nearly half a century. The very notion of "caucasoid" as something apart from the odd U.S. caste system is not replicable or even defineable.
:: Nonsense. The notion of 'caucasoid' is not something peculiar to "the odd US caste system"; rather, the bizarre notion that race is a 'social construct' is something peculiar to the US. In fact, the further one gets from the US, the less controversial such classifications as 'caucasian'.
If the point was to highlight the inconsistencies of U.S. Supreme Court rulings, which waffled back and forth over and over many times, as to whether Arabs, Pakistanis, or East Indians are "White," then I suggest it be reworded thus. 
Perhaps the author could use or or even quote from Matthew Frye Jacobson, Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race (Cambridge: Harvard University, 1998) or from Ian F. Haney-Lopez, White by Law: The Legal Construction of Race (New York: New York University, 1996). -- Frank W Sweet 15:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Arabs have always been classifed as white in the US, so you are either ignorant or dishonest (probably both). I challenge you to provide ONE documented, independently verifable example of a Supreme Court ruling that declared Arabs 'non-white' - or even investigated the question of Arab whiteness. The whiteness or lack thereof of Arabs has in fact NEVER been an issue presented to the supreme court. You are a rather shameless liar.
This is in response to the above unsigned rant. Among the important cases (among the many) where the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on the "Whiteness" of Arabs are the following eleven cases:
*In re Najour. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 174 F. 735. Ruled in 1909 that Syrians are White. Decision based on scientific evidence.
*In re Mudarri. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 176 F. 465. Ruled in 1910 that Syrians are White. Decision based on legal precedent (Najour).
*In re Ellis. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 179 F. 1002. Ruled in 1910 that Syrians are white, despite scientific evidence that they not White. Decision based on "common knowledge."
*Ex parte Sahid. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 205 F. 812. Ruled in 1913 that Syrians are not White, and never have been. Decision based on "common knowledge."
*Ex parte Dow. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 211 F. 486. Ruled in 1914 that Syrians are not White, and cannot become White by assimilation. Decision based on "common knowledge."
*In re Dow. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 213 F. 355. Ruled in 1914 that Syrians are not White. Decision based on Congressional intent as to definition of Whiteness.
*Dow v. United States. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 226 F. 145. Ruled in 1915 that Syrians have always been White. Decision based on scientific evidence.
*United States v. Ali. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 7 F.2d 728. Ruled in 1915 that Punjabis are not White, even the Punjabi in question who was born an Arab in Arabia and simply moved to Punjab. Decision based on "common knowledge."
*In re Feroz Din. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 27 F.2d 568. Ruled in 1928 that Afghanis are not White, even the Afghani in question whose family moved to Afghanistan from Arabia. Decision based on "common knowledge."
*In re Ahmed Hassan. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 48 F.Supp. 843. Ruled in 1942 that Arabians are not White, have never been White, and can never become White. Decision based on legal precedent. (Apparently an attempt to end the debate.)
*Ex parte Mohriez. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 54 F.Supp. 941. Ruled in 1944 that Arabians are White, have always been White, and cannot legally be considered non-White. Decision based on legal precedent. (Another apparent attempt to end the debate.)
The last two rulings are particularly humorous. Please let me know the address to which I can send my invoice for 10 minutes of elementary paralegal research. For a modest additional fee, I shall be happy to email you PDF files of the entire transcripts of these cases. Please have your credit card handy. -- Frank W Sweet 13:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As you noticed, that last ruling seems to have endured to this day. In fact, it has been applied even when a Arab person did not want to be White. For a strange story, see the case of Mostafa Hefny, a "black" African-looking immigrant, actually from Africa, who applied for affirmative action but was rejected. Alhough he is physically "black," the court ruled that since he was from Egypt, this made him an Arab, and so he was legally White whether he liked it or not. -- Frank W Sweet 03:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Africa, Southwest Asia and South Asia 

message: I have removed the reference to Brazil in the article's second paragraph and I have restored the reference to Chile. I removed the reference to Brazil because its source is flawed. The publishers of the CIA factbook cited have never provided sources for its so-called "ethnic" breakdowns and they have never clarified whether its numbers pertain to genetic admixture or voluntary self-identity (the two differ dramatically throughout the entire hemisphere). Unless we want to turn this article into an outline on how European genetic admixture percentages vary around the world due to colonization, it seems best to stick to socio-political perception (and self-perception) and avoid DNA. In this light, I removed the Brazilian reference because Brazilian literature overwhelmingly employs a rhetoric embracing mixed self-identity and opposes the U.S. White/Black/Indian trichotomy. In the same light, I restored Chile because, again, Chilean literature overwhelmingly claims "Whiteness." Not that Chileans deny Native American admixture--most also claim Amerindian blood as well. But the Chilean attitude resembles the mainstream U.S. attitude, that having some Amerind blood does not stop you from being "White." For anyone interested in the real DNA admixture percentages in Latin America (which, again, are not the same thing as the rhetoric of socio-political self-identity), I recommend the overall survey: Monica Sans and others, "Admixture Studies in Latin America: From the 20th to the 21st Century," Human Biology, February 2000, v. 72. no. 1, pp. 155-157. See http://backintyme.com/admixture/sans02.pdf for a copy in Spanish or http://backintyme.com/admixture/sans03.pdf for the English version. -- Frank W Sweet 14:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second Paragraph 

message: For two reasons, I removed the following sentence: "Yet, this is in contradiction with genetic research, since important areas around the Baltic and Scandinavia fall outside the European genetic cluster, with a high genetic flow stemming from Asia. See Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA) and pre-colonial areas of habitation next."
First (and less importantly), the depigmentation of the natives of the region within 300 miles of the Baltic does not conflict in any way with the early infusion of asian populations detectable via Y (or mtDNA) haplotypes. There is a vast difference in timing between the events. And there is even greater difference between autosomal adaptation and maternal or paternal lineages. Specifically, haplogroup N came into Europe from Siberia around 33kya, before the last glacial maximum. [See Stephen Oppenheimer, The Real Eve: Modern Man's Journey Out of Africa (New York: Carroll & Graf, 2003), p. 375.] The depigmentation of northern Europeans, on the other hand, happened much, much later (just 5kya). Furthermore, this depigmentation is a superficial change in 3-5 genes. It is merely a recent autosomal adaptation to the dietary switch from meat to grains. A close analogy is the adult lactose tolerance adaptation among the same peoples. Lactose tolerance also applies to recent autosomal DNA adaptations of inhabitants of the region, whatever their pre-glacial mtDNA or Y lineages. In contrast to autosomal adaptations, matrilineal and patrilineal lineages are useful for migration tracking precisely because they are adaptively neutral and go back essentially forever.
Second (and most importantly), the place for such discussion is here on the discussion page, not in the body of the article. -- Frank W Sweet 15:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly is it that you disagree with? (1) Do you disagree that the European depigmentation is centered on the Baltic? (2) Do you disagree that Whiteness is traditionally associated with being European? (3) Do you disagree that our species colonized Europe from Asia (which was colonized from Africa)? I cannot answer you if I do not know what you are trying to say. Feel free to just give a number (1, 2, or 3), if this is easier. Please stop reverting until we can sort out just what you are trying to say. I am willing to help you add data about pre-LGM migrations if you think it useful, but I would like to know just why you think that pre-LGM (33kya) migrations have anything to do with the post-aricultural (5kya) depigmentation adaptation. (Also, to sign your remarks, type four tildes.) -- Frank W Sweet 17:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The problem is not that you neglected to explain your points. The problem is that I cannot grasp what you are getting at. Are you saying that the notion of Europeans as the epitome of Whiteness is inconsistent because our species evolved outside of Europe? Is that what you are trying to say? Please, help me out here. (Also, to sign your remarks, type four tildes.) -- Frank W Sweet 19:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay. Go for it. Now that I know what you are trying to say, I might be able to help tweak it. FYI, a tilde is this symbol ~ . Type four of them, one after the other with no spaces after your comments and it will sign and date your comments automatically. -- Frank W Sweet 22:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "White" as opposed to "Light Skinned" 

message: I am very confused as to why some people find it so hard to accept that the definition of white and the history of the "white race" are two different things. Is this because they feel that the "White people" article is the only portion of Wikipedia where their heritage is represented? Why are they so obsessed with claiming the white label as their own and not letting anyone else have it, even refusing to believe that some people they don't see as white see themselves as white and are seen by others as white? DonSiano claims that we can write about the white race without knowing who they are. I guess this is theoretically possible, but we'd also have to write in detail about all the peoples who are or have been called white, because if we don't, a member of one of these groups will come in here pissed as hell calling us racists for excluding them from our definition of the "white race". 
Proposed solution: DonSiano et al should be encouraged to be proud of their culture and heritage, and to contribute to articles directly and unambiguously related to their culture and heritage. In DonSiano's case, this would seem to be European history and culture, though for all I know he might have other influences in his background that he considers significant. For others, it may vary. Since almost all definitions of "white" include, but are not necessarily limited to Europeans (as this article states), we can link to those articles from this page. The article should continue to clearly state that Europeans are considered white by pretty much everybody, even those who also consider others to be white. But I think keeping the definition page separate from a page about ethnic groups would help clear things up. Is this acceptable? If not, please explain why. Thank you. ThePedanticPrick 16:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pro -- If we can figure out how to keep those who want to "contribute to articles directly and unambiguously related to their culture and heritage" out of here, it would certainly stop the constant flaming. I agree to your suggestion. -- Frank W Sweet 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Con -- On the other hand, I have no problem with anyone adding sourced material (or linking to it, either way) about European peoples and their culture. But it must be about European peoples and their Culture not about some exclusive "White race." For example, DonSiano wrote the opening sentence of the "Prehistory" paragraph as, "The prehistory of the White race can be traced by...", despite his knowing full well that NO reputable journal would accept such an opening. NONE. On the other hand, written as, "The prehistory of the European peoples can be traced by..." is perfectly acceptable. More to the point, it makes no difference to me where in Wikipedia such a blatantly racialist statement was written. I would personally hunt it down and kill it no matter where it lurked. -- Frank W Sweet 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The reason that I would hunt it down and kill it is not because "a member of one of these groups will come in here pissed as hell calling us racists for excluding them from our definition of the 'white race'." It is because reifying White racial exclusivity turns Wiki into a racialist laughing-stock among the billions of people who consider themselves "White" because of Western culture (Latin Americans), because of European appearance (North Africans and Middle Easterners), or because they were the original Indo-Europeans (Indians and Pakistanis), or because U.S. anthropologists (Carleton Coon) said they were "Caucasoids" (Somalis and Ethiopians). It is counterproductive to rub U.S. racialist idealogy in everybody's face in a venue that is meant to be educational. It is not mere "political correctness" to accept that other non-Europeans (and other former colonies) have as much claim to European heritage as USAmericans do. -- Frank W Sweet 17:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Analyzing the indigenous inhabitants of Europe from a genetic point of view is an excellent idea, which I support wholeheartedly. But analyzing people who call themselves white is not such a good idea. As I have stated (and footnoted) with tedious regularity, 90% of Puerto Ricans consider themselves White although we average 50-50 Afro-European admixture. They definitely call themselves White but they are half African. To analyze them, we would have to write about the eastward-moving Bantu agricultural expansion, (which was analogous to, driven by the same forces, and had the same impact including the creation of hunter-gatherer enclaves, as the Indo-European expansion westwards into Europe). Does anyone really want to do that in this article? Saying that we want to study the phylogegraphy of people who call themselves white reopens the very can of worms that I am trying to close. Saying that we want to study the phylogegraphy of the indigenous inhabitants of Europe is clean, succinct, to the point, and keeps that particular can of worms closed. -- Frank W Sweet 02:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I am not going to write anything based on linguistics since I am ignorant in the field. My field is DNA (and U.S. history, of course), so I am more comfortable writing about the flow of haplogroups. But I would not object if someone else could shed light on the early Europeans using linguistics in this article. After all, look at Cavalli-Sforza. (Come to think of it, we have the same problem in Africa. "Bantu" is a group of language families, not a cohesive tribe or nation.) -- Frank W Sweet 03:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Attempting to reach consensus

message: FWIW, I happen to agree with 60.226.67.122 that Chileans are almost as obsessive about their Whiteness as Puerto Ricans are, and with a great deal more genetic justification. The problem is that Ethiopians, Somalis, the mixed Boer-Khoisan communities of SW Africa, as well as the people of Pakistan, India, and Bangla Desh also have their own reasons to claim Whiteness. I wish that I could suggest some litmus test that could tell just who has the right to claim the mantle of White heritage, but I regret that I do not. -- Frank W Sweet
This is what I meant by my statement about race being a meme. Everyone is focused on being white when in reality the term is only a concept created to divide the human race into various categories. see (memetic engineering)Everyone in the world is a Negro according to Stanley Poole- author of The Moors in Spain because Africa is where the human race originated. Although climate changes the physical features.--Gnosis 16:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chileans 

message: Devon21 removed a quotation from the 1860 American encyclopedia, saying that it is "unnecessary Irish-hate speech not relevant to 'White'." I suggest that the quotation is necessary to show the virulence of anti-Irish feeling of the time. (After all, the Know-Nothings were at their peak then.) It is relevant to the topic of this article because, along with the accounts of Germans, Italians, Jews, and others, it shows that being from Europe did not necessarily make you immediately accepted as White in America back then. The point of this section is to demonstrate that the cognitive research findings of Kurzban, Tooby, and Cosmides are correct. People are not seen as "other" because they look different. They are perceived as looking different because they are seen as "other." -- Frank W Sweet 02:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  unnecessary Irish-hate speech 

message: FrankWSweet should not have placed his own work as a "source", on a Wikipedia article that he edits frequently.  Furthermore, FrankW insists on pushing exceptions to make his case, and uses dubious ideological/anti-White sources.  
:None of the material that you removed came from my own work, but that of others. All of it was cited quotations from scholarly, peer-reviewed work. If you can cite scholarly peer-reviewed work that contradicts or refutes anything in the article, please post it. Otherwise, your repeated removal of material simply because you do not like it is in blatant violation of WP:NOR and is now approaching vandalism. -- Frank W Sweet 09:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Celts are not northern European unless you think Spain is in northern Europe, since Asturias and Galicia are intensely Celtic and were the place from whence ancestors of the Irish and Scots came. See Galicia (Spain)#History. There is no hatred in revealing what happened in the past. There are only cited, referenced facts. Oddly, none of the sources in the paragraph that you keep trashing cite either Sweet or Ignative. -- Frank W Sweet 09:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have never said that anyone is (or is not) White, neither Berbers, Irish, nor anyone else. I simply insist on adherence to WP:V. Your refusal to abide by WP:V has become outright vandalism. -- Frank W Sweet 22:47, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

text: My citing scholarly peer-reviewed sources cannot possibly be considered original research. -- Frank W Sweet 03:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I never said such things about the Irish. The American encyclopedia of 1860 said them. I was not around at that time. I never claimed that the Irish were not White in 1976 or any other time. An Englisham said it. I was not even there. I am just quoting. -- Frank W Sweet 03:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FrankWSweet's insistence on pushing Irish-hate

message: Frank, you inserted the following:  
According to Jennifer Guglielmo and Salvatore Salerno, "Many Italians arriving in the U.S. in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (when the largest numbers of Italian immigrants came to the U.S.) were not even considered white, but were labeled "dark" or "dark/white."Jennifer Guglielmo and Salvatore Salerno, Are Italians White?: How Race is Made in America (New York: Routledge, 2003) 
......while including nothing to balance off that point.  Can you provide a page number?  How would this reconile with the ENTIRE BOOK, written by Thomas Guglielmo titled "White on Arrival, Italians, Race, Color, and Power in Chicago, 1890-1945"  Why do continually only include data or sources that are one-sided?  data and sources that back up what is obviously a bigoted prejudical viewpoint on the history?
You have to start being fair and honest with the reader, and to be NPOV you have to balanced, not biased.  Italians were White on arrival.  You can find your excpetions, and hostility to newcomers to be sure, but to make the reader believe otherwise is historical revision. I have never seen a person so hell-bent on pushing the idea that Germans, Irish, Italians, and other Europeans "aren't White".  It simply boggles the mind.  Frank, you are biased and selective in your research, you must face it.Devon21 01:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never said that anyone is (or is not) White. I simply report what the sources say. about the attitudes of Americans in the distant past. I encourage you to write something per WP:V that contests or refutes what I wrote. Please do so. If you feel that I am not telling the whole story, then go ahead and tell your side of it. -- Frank W Sweet 04:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have never said that anyone is (or is not) White. I simply report what the sources say. about the attitudes of Americans in the distant past. I encourage you to write something per WP:V that contests or refutes what I wrote. Please do so. If you feel that I am not telling the whole story, then go ahead and tell your side of it. -- Frank W Sweet 11:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FrankWSweet's insertion of bias

message: As recently as thirty years ago, some people sincerely believed that they could spot an Irishman trying to pass for White.
Frank, I'm sorry but this is not worthy of inclusion into Wikipedia.  Are you actually trying to push the belief that in 1976, Irish-Americans were not considered White?  It boggles the mind. Why are you doing this??  Wikipedia is not a place for original research or fringe academia.  What legitimate source do you have for this?  Again, pushing a (fringe) exception as the rule.  Perhaps you could help edit Whiteness studies, that is where you seem to be focused, and it is a more acceptable place for controversial theories and statements.Devon21 07:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never said that anyone is (or is not) White. I simply report what the sources say. about the attitudes of Americans in the distant past. I encourage you to write something per WP:V that contests or refutes what I wrote. Please do so. If you feel that I am not telling the whole story, then go ahead and tell your side of it. -- Frank W Sweet 11:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Frank W. Sweet's continual insertion of nonsensical bigotry

message: The previous discussion show the obsession of Americans with race and whiteness. Being an European, I must confess that I am pretty amazed. I already knew about this but this discussion is really amazing me even more. The problem is that American society seems to present itself as the God that decides who is white or not, with an obvious connotation about what it means to be white. America has a racist history, not so different from countries like South Africa, that invalidates all information that could be contributed on this subject from the point of view of American society. I think that anyone would find unacceptable to introduce the views on whiteness of South African society, or of Nazi Germany, yet people here seem to think that introducing the views of the Americans on race is all right. Well, for people who see it from outside this is quite pathetic. HCC.
:: Look who is talking. Eurabia online.
:It is depressing, isn't it. This is why I said that so many Wikipedia articles on population variation and classificaion are a racialist laughing-stock outside the United States. Wikipedia articles try to explain why some cultures (Americans and to a lesser extent Brits) see some people as White or not. But rather than even trying to grasp this oddity of perception, many USAmericans are obsessively fixated on who "really is White" (or not). They simply cannot help themselves. Leon Festinger's Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (Stanford: Stanford University, 1957) would say that it is because USAmericans know deep down that they are all mixed, because the U.S. has been such a melting pot. So they try hopelessly to convince themselves that they are "racially" pure. Sad. -- Frank W Sweet 14:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You should contribute more to the article, especially in the area of genetic admixture. Your viewpoint as a Brit can shed a different light on the topic. You may not realize just how virulent the U.S. color line is. You have to live in the 'States for several years to get the full flavor. For example, in the UK, Black(BWI) out-marriage with Whites runs 20-40 percent. (See Suzanne Model and Gene Fisher, "Unions Between Blacks and Whites: England and the U.S. Compared," Ethnic and Racial Studies, 25 (no. 5, September 2002), 728-54. ) This is ten times the U.S. rate! Just think about the implications of this to the acceptance or rejection mixed youngsters trying to find a place for themselves in society. -- Frank W Sweet 22:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Americans and their problems with race. 

message: The violent, hostile attack upon Mr. Sweet by Small Victory should not be tolerated.  If it occurs again or with me, I will find a way to lodge a complaint...and I won't stop until I do!  This shows the childishness of Small Victory and the idealogical investment he has with the (non-existent) "white" purity of Italians/Sicilians and Greeks.  Forgive me, but who in the hell does he think he is?  Does he think he has the exclusive right to write the histories of Greeks and Italians?  I think some drastic action is in order to curtail the powers of Small Victory here at Wiki.  I will not put up with any bull from him...AT ALL!  Does he think we'll be frightened off by his violent remarks?  I assure you, I am the wrong person to try that tactic with.  I urge any moderators here to look into this matter at once.  I am very, very familiar with this character. Small Victory a.k.a. Racial Myths a.k.a. Racial Reality is a well-known white supremacist who specialises in proclaiming the "whiteness" of southern Europeans.  Anyone who knows him from his old message board knows very well that he attempts to discredit (without, of course, any basis in fact) any study that doesn't fit his agenda.
There are many markers of sub-Saharan origin in all Mediterranean populations.  Not a single one of the studies showing this has been challenged or retracted save one on Jews and Palestineans (that happens to cross-reference some Greek/Ethiopian relatedness data).  And this one was retracted purely for political reasons, as anyone who bothers to read all the available articles and information on it can tell.  The Arnaiz-Villena study specifically on Greeks and the others that cross-reference the information have not been challenged in any way.  If there had been a true scientific challenge to the use of HLA alleles or specifically the DRB1 locus, all of the studies of Arnaiz-Villena and others using these markers would have been withdrawn.  They haven't...except the one on Jews and Palestineans.  The supposed scientific challenge of the Jews/Palestineans study is a series of straw-man arguments, taking Arnaiz-Villena's comments out of context.  One of the scientists involved in the supposed scientific challenge practically admitted in an e-mail to a political motivation for writing it...because it dares to bring up a touchy issue. Arnaiz-Villena used wording that some people found politically objectionable...and that is the sole reason the one study was withdrawn...after, mind you, it had passed peer review and been published!  Very tacky withdrawal, indeed.  Furthermore, if the scientists really did have a scientific beef with the article, what makes their opinions override those of Arnaiz-Villena, et al., who obviously find no fault with it?  Other scientists wrote in to support Arnaiz-Villena after the article had been pulled, saying the magazine was heavy-handed (and suggesting scientific evidence was being suppressed in the name of politics).
These scientists do not at all even begin to attempt to dispute Arnaiz-Villena's finding of sub-Saharan-specific alleles in Greeks.  Intentionally vague mention is made of the closeness of Greeks and Ethiopians being "disputed," (in the cross-referenced data {tree} in the Jews/Palestineans study) but not specifically the finding of sub-Saharan-specific alleles.  Such hard evidence is irrefutable, and they know better than to try to dispute it.  The claim that the DRB1 locus is under selection is irrelevant, because no quantification was attempted.  Selection can't create markers from a foreign population; only admixture can.  Marc Jobling's words have also been taken out of context.  He never disputed (and can't dispute) Arnaiz-Villena's finding of sub-Saharan-specific alleles in Greeks; only the supposed lack of objectivity when creating a single population clustering chart.  Jobling states that since the population origins (of the alleles in question) were known, it may have skewed the objectivity of this single chart.  But he is admitting that the origins of those alleles were known (to be sub-Saharan in origin)!  He isn't attempting to dispute it.  This is all a sad attempt to Small Victory to discredit valid studies.  This is fraudulent activity, and I will personally take action by e-mailing his words to the authors of the studies.  A similar fraudulent claim was made by him alleging that a study by Semino, et al. (1989) finding a 4.4% sub-Saharan contribution to the Sicilian genepool had been "refuted" by a passage from Vona, et al. (2001).  The Vona study never attempted to refute the Semino study, and more importantly, there is no way it can.  The definite findings of 4 L sequences out of 91 diverse Sicilians is factual and is not open to question.  Similarly, the finding by Arnaiz-Villena of HLA alleles that are specific to Ethiopians and other sub-Saharans is not open to question.  How anyone can argue this is beyond me or anyone with a brain.
The ancestral Y marker E-M78 originated in eastern Africa.  If the sub-cluster of this marker that was found in Greeks and other Europeans originated in the Balkans, this doesn't change the fact that its ancestor, E-M78 itself, originated in eastern Africa.  And its ancestor, E-M35, originated in eastern Africa.  And its ancestor, E3b, originated in eastern Africa.  This shows a direct, albeit ancient, connection that Greece has with sub-Saharan Africa. The idea that these markers originating in eastern Africans are "Caucasoid" (a discarded "racial" term) is ridiculous.  If they were specific to populations displaying a European-type appearance, they would be present in their highest frequencies in such populations.  But they are not.  Furthermore, J.L. Angel reported long ago findings of ancient sub-Saharan-type skulls in Greece.  
But not only do we have this ancient sub-Saharan contribution to the Greek genepool,  we also have the several sub-Saharan-specific HLA alleles found by Arnaiz-Villena.  These are not found in any quantities in other European populations, so their introgression into Europe cannot be from the ancient days of E-M78's arrival there.  In addition to this, there is haplogroup A in a sample of 27 Greeks from Mitilini.  There is the Chromosome 7 marker (showing Greeks are the only Europeans sharing cystic fibrosis mutations with sub-Saharans).  There is the eastern African M1.  And finally, there is the Benin strain of HbS.  This particular strain of HbS originated in sub-Saharan Africa and could only have entered Greece through admixture / gene flow.  (It is also present in Sicily.) Still want to claim Greeks are purely "white," whatever that means?  I'm sure Small Victory will, as all facts are routinely ignored by him (and met with hostile remarks) and always will be.
The ancestral form of Y-haplogroup E-M35, which is E-M35*, is not found in any quantity outside of eastern and southern Africans.  Therefore, its presence in Europeans (such as Sicilians at a rate of 5.5%, reported in Semino, 2004) is an indication of sub-Saharan genetic introgression.  There is no other explanation.  E-M35* did not arrive with E-M78 in ancient times, otherwise it would have a similar distribution.  Furthermore, mtDNA shows L sequenes in Sicily (in almost every study, with one sample, as stated above, finding them at a rate of 4.4%).  In southern mainland Italy, they have been found at a rate of 8%.  And there are sub-Saharan blood proteins. Several of these have been found in Sicily.  These did not appear by magic.
Another claim made by Small Victory is that blood group markers are useless, and he uses a single quote to "prove" this.  Blood group markers are certainly perfectly valid for determining that admixture occurred. Their lack of popularity nowadays is due to the fact that since the decoding of the human genome, DNA can be looked at directly, so there is no need to rely on proteins.  This doesn't mean that older studies using these proteins are invalid.  A protein specific to a population cannot have entered another population other than by admixture.  A single quote doesn't erase decades of research.  And blood protein studies are still being conducted to determine population relatedness.
I urge anyone studying this to do their own research and not to rely on the terribly skewed and idealogically motivated comments of Small Victory either here or on his "Racial Reality" website.  And, for heaven's sake, don't rely strictly on Wiki!
:Thank you. It is hard to ignore personal villification, but it is usually the flamer who looks bad in the long run. -- Frank W Sweet 18:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small Victory is the only person with an agenda...and a huge one!