Talk:Richard Dawkins/Archive 6

message: I was thinking... perhaps a "Selected essays" sub-section isn't such a good idea. Dawkins has written so much that we can't come close to listing everything, and there seems to be no objective way of selecting only some. 
I don't feel particularly strongly about this; what do the rest of you think?
Mikker (...) 21:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Selected essays makes sense to me.  I find it useful.  Midorihana(talk)(contribs) 05:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Selected essays 

message: It seems to be an update. Use info as you will. I am pressed for time at the moment. : Albion moonlight 08:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins_Foundation_for_Reason_and_Science_officially_deemed_a_charity Wikinews article] 

message: I've protected the article.  Please try to work this out on the talk page.  Let me know if it works about before three days time.  If the editwarring continues after expiration, I'll be handing out userblocks to prevent disruption.  Regards, Mercury 17:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place."
I read that Dawkins said this. Is this true? Should it be included in a criticism section? Seems he is saying Jews run the US foreign policy. Imbrella 19:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really fail to see your logic. Why should it be in the criticism section? ...not to mention your POV interpretation of the statement.--Svetovid 21:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why shouldn't it be? I find the reason for it not being complete unconvincing, considering on Wikipedia quotations are rarely provided entirely in their context. The real reason for keeping this up and locking the article is to preserve your pro-Dawkins POV and you know it. StaticElectric 02:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Abe Foxman, director of the ADL mentioned Richard Dawkins' antisemetic outburst saying, "This is classical anti-Semitism. Just because it's wrapped around an issue of atheism doesn't make it any less virulent, anti-Semitic and dangerous." This is definetley notable, he should be charged with hate-speech. --RucasHost 05:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find that amusing. Is Foxman saying that the Jewish lobby has been unable to to influence American foreign policy regarding Israel? Wonder how that would go down in the next fundraising letter to raise money for lobbyists? In any case Dawkins makes it clear he is commenting on religious Jewish actions, which is quite a different thing from commenting on Jews as a "race". Dawkins is well known for his attacks on all religions, is Foxman expecting the Jewish faith to be exempt because of the racial background of the majority of its adherents? I do say in Foxmans defence he does have a right to be defensive, but there is nothing here to suggest Dawkins is anti-semetic. Bringing it back into context, these are selectively mined quotes by POV pushers. --Michael Johnson 06:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Foxman is being ridiculous, but at this point when the head of the ADL is commenting it makes this much more notable. We may wish to reconsider mentioning it. JoshuaZ 15:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: *Foxman is presumably using Dawkins's comments as what would be described in wikipedia as a coatrack, to increase the profile of his organization. He cannot seriously believe that Dawkins is being anti-semitic. Anyway, the whole thing is (IMHO) a storm in a teacup. Recentist junk. No need to do anything with it. Snalwibma 15:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the ADL particularly needs Dawkins help to raise their profile, though I agree, it is rather a storm in a teacup mostly stirred up by right-wing religionists.  – ornis⚙ 15:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The concertn that this is recentism seems to be the best argument against keeping it in. Let's reevaluate in a few weeks. JoshuaZ 16:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the ADL are plugging this then we know why and it has nothing to do with Dawkins. With respect to Dawkins the ADL and the various shrill Blogs are a fringe view as they are as irrelevant to Evolution or Atheism as you possibly can and thus they are irrelevant to Dawkins unless we can show that Dawkins does in fact have a Political studies background and has published material that has been peer reviewed about politics. Else we're just pushing Dawkins cruft into the article. What next ? - food critic review of what Dawkins had for breakfast ?. Ttiotsw 17:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: By your own definition what you say too is also irrelevant so no, it *is* relevant what editors think as that is how we derive consensus: The references to date are trivial and really unrelated to Dawkins' field of expertise. Dawkins isn't a notable political commentator AFAIK so comments about politics are really quite trivial mentions. It works both ways - every time Dawkins mentions 'x' we don't simply stick into the article a mention of 'x' (the Out Campaign is a case in point in that it just isn't notable). Ttiotsw 16:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dawkins on Jews: 

message: I'm exhausted 2RR, so I'm done reverting for the night.  I find the recent edits by  distressing, to say the least diff.  To take a quote so far out of context is clearly inappropriate, and skirts our policy on biographies of living persons.  Even if the quote were included verbatim in its entirety, it doesn't belong.  Just because the Anti-Defamation League wants to get all wound up about it, doesn't necessarily mean it warrants mention in our article.  They can have a ball taking his quote out of context, but until reliable NPOV sources pick the story up, it has no place here.  Ynetnews clearly does not fit the bill here.  This is a scholarly encyclopedia article about Dawkins's life and scholarly work; it should not degrade to "Richard Dawkins: Thursday before last to present".
I hope that the admin who inevitably becomes involved in this content dispute later today will consider addressing the behavior of the POV-pushing edit warriors, rather than protecting the page only to see this cycle repeat itself.  ➪HiDrNick! 06:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having an unused "3RR" quota I removed some of the references to third-party quotes, while leaving the reference to the Out Campaign, but I agree completely with Snalwibma: unless the new movement establishes itself it shouldn't be included at all.--Old Moonraker 06:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually in this case, 3RR doesn't apply to removing this material, in fact those trying to add it can be blocked for doing so.  – ornis⚙ 07:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I agree ( pretty sure I've said that before ), and have performed the necessary cruftectomy.  – ornis⚙ 07:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My error: removal of contentious or poorly sourced material is not limited by 3RR in biographies of living people. Thanks Ornis and StaticElectric. --Old Moonraker 08:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is extremely relevant, the ADL is a notable and important organization and the fact that they have commented on the matter suggests that it is relevant. If Dawkin's doesn't believe what he said is anti-Semetic he should clarify what he said and then we can post that here to. Until then, there's no good reason to remove this. You just don't want any criticism for Richard Dawkins (that's why the article -- as of yet -- has no Criticism or Controversy section). --RucasHost 16:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Criticism is in the text, just not in separate sections. We've been over this before. JoshuaZ 16:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-protection edit war, ho! 

message: Richard has added links to products on his online shop...as much as I admire his work I don't think it is correct for him or anyone else for that matter to do so? Teapotgeorge 11:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the links to the end of the article as a temporary measure.  If there is a place for the links, it's not inline in the article, that's for sure.  :)  ➪HiDrNick! 11:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An editor with the name User:RichardDawkins has added links here and here to material that can be bought from the Richard Dawkins website. This falls within Wikipedia:conflict of interest (especially, financial and self promotion in the Examples section) and thus should be removed. The first edit was modified by User:HiDrNick, but both promotional links still exist in the footnotes. Northfox 23:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah all the links he altered made them dead (except the last one). I also suspected a hijacked account. Maybe someone can email Dawkins and confirm he made those edits like last time. Spellcast 05:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll nix waiting until tomorrow afternoon to email him. I'm typing up an email right now. Pingveno 07:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I just sent it off. Pingveno 07:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the commercial links are still up. No other controversial edits have been made from by User:RichardDawkins, so it seems that the account was not compromised, after all. Northfox 11:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still suspicious about the edits. There could have been any number ways someone could have gotten a hold of Dawkins' account and any number of reasons why no additional edits have come from the account. I haven't gotten an email back from him yet, presumably because it was the weekend. Sit tight, the reply should clarify what happened. Pingveno 16:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to Richard Dawkins online Shop

message: I came here because the edit war was at such high pitch, both sides were sending WP:AIV block requests about parties on the other side. By protecting the page, I wanted to get discourse at the talk page instead of discussion-by-edit-summary.
Here's what I've observed:
# Established consensus is that there is not a separate criticism section; criticism is woven into the article.
# No new arguments for a separate criticism section were successfully put forward, other than to include a specific criticism.
# The majority opinion is that the specific criticism (involving the ADL) is given undue weight by its inclusion, and/or suffers from recentism or bias in the originating source.
# That the arguments presented by some editors make it appear that instead of acting in true good faith, they may be on a path of tenditious editing..
I think the community of editors here is clear that the ADL quote is not to be put into the article. There may be compromising wording that can be found to include it, but compromise can only be reached by reasonable discussion here and not by edit warring. Those who feel strongly about the inclusion of the quote should find a way to work with the rest of the editors here about a middle ground and not against them.
I am unprotecting the article, but I would caution all editors involved to weigh their edits carefully, especially in regard to edits relating to this specific area. —C.Fred (talk) 22:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Conclusions

message: i can't believe this is a 'good' article. i cant understand why there's no 'controversy' section!!!!! if so many people on the discussion page want one why cant u put it on there. i am very disappointed in wikipedia, i thought it was suppose to provide unbiased information. you guys suck.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.131.226 (talk) 16:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just removed the NPOV tag placed on the article by this anon editor, to whom I say simply: If you have any reasons for placing such a tag (other than "there is no separate crticism section", which is extensively discussed above, passim, and on which the consensus is clear) please explain here. Snalwibma 16:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An article does not need to tag criticism explicitly as such to include it. This article is built with the criticism woven inline with the article, and that issue has already been discussed here. In the absence of new concerns, the  tag is not needed on the article. Please discuss here why the tag should be replaced before you replace it. —C.Fred (talk) 16:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

text: By whom and related to what issue(s), specifically? —C.Fred (talk) 17:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  very disappointed 

message: No criticism, no controversy section.
Any attempt to add anything critical about Dawkins, such as his recent anti-Semetic outburst and the ADL's comment, is stopped by a gang of pro-Dawkins editors.
--RucasHost 05:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed per the conversation above. Care to expand further? Gscshoyru 05:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

text: My twopence-worth: Dawkins recently drew a parallel between atheists and the "Jewish lobby" in America. Whether or not it betrays any anti-semitism (one perfectly valid interpretation is that it was a pro-Jewish comment - see Jewish lobby), the ADL and a few right-wing commentators have chosen to twist it to serve their own ends. If the little controversy it has created belongs anywhere it is at Anti-Defamation League. Even in that context it is recentist cruft which addds nothing substantial to the subject. In the context of the Dawkins article it's not only that, it is also irrelevant. The more general complaint, that there is "no criticism allowed" in the article, is obvious nonsense. Just read the article. And the suggestion of a "gang" defending the man at all costs is equally ridiculous. By "stopped by a gang of pro-Dawkins editors" I think you mean "deemed irrelevant by those who know about the subject". GNUSMAS : TALK 07:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the first time I've heard the ADL described as "right-wing", then again it's also the first time I've heard someone consider anti-semetic conspiracy theories to be complimentry. He said, the Jews control US dominate policy, the same thing neo-Nazis have been saying for years. --RucasHost 02:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read what I wrote, and you will see (if you understand basic English grammar and syntax) that I did not say the ADL was right-wing. And where on earth is the "anti-semetic [sic] conspiracy theory" in what Dawkins said? GNUSMAS : TALK 06:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He actually said "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place." He did not say "the Jews control US dominate policy". He does not even say if it is good or bad. And trying to associate it with neo-Nazis is a nasty trick. In fact if you talk to Australian foreign affairs officials they will tell you how hard it is to draw US attention to other parts of the world, such as Asia, because of this focus on the Middle East. --Michael Johnson 05:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Anyway, regardless of how it's "interpreted" it can't be interpreted at all if it's not in the article. It's very notable (because the ADL commented -- regardless of whether or not you agree with their comment -- and it got a lot of press) and belongs in the article! --RucasHost 02:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it got a lot of press, then there should be a link to the Times of London, New York Times, etc. article available to use in a citation, no? —C.Fred (talk) 03:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No mention at all here in Australia. Probably just a US thing. --Michael Johnson 03:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added 2 citations before it was removed by the gang of Dawkins fans. Here are some news articles on his outburst. YnetNews, Spectator.co.uk, The Jerusalem Post, The Guardian, etc... You can find many more easily. --RucasHost 03:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Other than the YnetNews link, those are all op-ed pieces. —C.Fred (talk) 03:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the YnetNews link is, well, YnetNews.  ➪HiDrNick! 04:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a non op-ed one from the Guardian. Anyway, what do you have against YNetNews? --RucasHost 04:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And a very nice article it is too. Puts everything into perspective. No mention of the ADL though. --Michael Johnson 04:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Irony aside, the article is approaching a hagiography in it's lack of criticism. 192.43.227.18 06:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dawkins is known for his written words rather than his saintly actions and it is there that the criticisms of his works need to be placed rather than ad hominem attacks here. To a scientist, a critical review of their work that identifies flaws in their arguments is a much more catastrophic attack than any ad hominem attack in the press. The bar is set high to reflect the relative difficulty in the editing required and so far few editors are up to the task. That is not a deficiency in the article but it reflects the shallow approaches of the editors who criticise the article for its lack of criticism. Cast far and deep and then come back. A soundbite from Southpark or the ADL means you've got stuck on the mudflats. Ttiotsw 06:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Rucahost et al. are not interested in "stuffing the article with every little reference to Dawkins in the media"... only the negative ones.--Svetovid 15:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, that is an issue - Rucas is clearly POV pushing. But the basic argument has some validity. The anti-semitism accusation has received a large amount of press at this point (I also don't see what's wrong with Ynetnews). The accusations at this point seem stupid but notable. A two or three sentence mention might not be unreasonable. JoshuaZ 19:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed - but equally, it should not be stuffed with every trivial positive mention. On which note - does anyone know anything about the Deschner Prize, which RD has apparently just been awarded? It was added to the article today. I edited it down a bit, but it might be for the chop altogether. Anyone? Snalwibma 16:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The article cited by Rucas was quote mined.  The same article quoted a counter opinion.  As such the citation cancels itself out as an argument without a resolution, much like this one. Jok2000 19:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two points. Firstly all sources quoted misquote Dawkins, effectively making his statement look worse than it is. Secondly the only source that approaches reliability, Ynet, includes a counter opinion from another prominent Jewish leader, in which he says he cannot tell if the comment was antisemetic or not. Interestingly I cannot find a press release, or even mention of Dawkins on the ADL website, so I wonder how seriously they take it. Accusations of racism in any form are very serious. If this one is to be included it should include Dawkins full quote and Malcom Hoenlein's opinion, as well as Foxman's accusation. I'm not convinced it justifies that space. --Michael Johnson 22:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV complaint 

message: From the intro of Ynetnews: "Ynetnews is an English language Israel news and content website operated by Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel’s most-read tabloid..." (emphasis added). Given the definition of tabloid at the linked article, I'm having trouble seeing how this can be used as a reliable source. Does anybody have evidence to the contrary about the site's reputation? —C.Fred (talk) 21:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reliable source that says this self described tabloid is not in fact a tabloid? hehe Certainly, if we are to include this point it must come from only the best and most reliable sources (remember BLP concerns apply here), and then probably more than one source is needed, along with some balancing material for NPOV. And, unless this accusation is made from a few notable organizations, I don't think it merits inclusion into his bio article.Giovanni33 22:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Quoting the article tabloid "A tabloid is a newspaper industry term which refers to a smaller newspaper format per spread; to a weekly or semi-weekly alternative newspaper that focuses on local-interest stories and entertainment, often distributed for free (often in a smaller, tabloid-sized newspaper format); or to a newspaper that tends to emphasise sensational crime stories, gossip columns repeating scandalous innuendos about the personal lives of celebrities and sports stars, and other so-called "junk food news" "(emphasis on the or added). YA is more in the first category, not the second. The self-identification is occurring in that context. JoshuaZ 22:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And it is listed at List of newspapers in Israel. After another editor dismissed it in earlier discussion, but it got used again in a cite, I wanted to open the question of how reliable a source it is. —C.Fred (talk) 02:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Both of you are relying on other WP articles to support your points. That doesn't count. WP does not really on itself as a reliable source of information. :)I'm sure if the allegation is notable and accurate, we could find sources that no one would question, and we need at least two of those, I think, to include these rather serious allegationsGiovanni33 06:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussing whether Ynetnews is a reliable source, and the precise nature of a "tabloid", is really beside the point. The issue is - What do you want to use it as a source for? Dawkins mentioned "the Jewish lobby". A few people have predictably seized upon the opportunity to call him anti-semitic, regardless of the evidence. Sure, it's a news story for a few days. But we are dealing with an encyclopedia article here. Does this little incident add anything meaningful to an understanding of the subject of the article? Rather less than the fact that Dawkins was parodied on South Park, actually. Snalwibma 07:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well the concern really is whether enough reliable sources have discussed the matter that we should discuss it. If, for example, we had 10,000 reliable sources that had discussed Dawkins and South Park it would be hard to argue against discussing it also. So whether Ynet is a reliable source is relevant. JoshuaZ 15:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, JoshuaZ, for making the better point along the path I started. A single article in the Times of London would not really make the event notable. However, coverage across multiple newspapers and, IMO, multiple days would demonstrate that the story has gotten significant coverage and should be mentioned in the article. —C.Fred (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Does it really matter how many sources carry an unfounded accusation?  If we need reliable sources, then John Cornwell, and reviewers of Darwin's Angel, already made it quite clear that Dawkins is an antisemitic hate-monger. This being biography of a living person, one should include such accusations of racism, only if it comes from a reasonably impartial source. In short, the statement by User:Michael Johnson yesterday is still true today: this isn't worth the space required for a fair treatment.  --Merzul 19:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ynetnews as a source 

message: I can't believe the above discussions are still going on...  Anyway, in the next couple of weeks, I will occasionally click on a random redlink on this article, and then I'll do my best to write something. The first, which was simply the longest redlink, wasn't exactly encouraging: Medal of the Presidency of the Italian Republic. At some point, I even suspected it was a hoax, I mean the motivations signed by Mikhail Gorbachev are extremely exaggerated, and not just for Deepak Chopra, who received the price for being, and I suspect Dawkins wouldn't quite agree, "one of the most lucid and inspired philosophers of our time" :) --Merzul 14:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Be careful what you redlink 

message: I have read in several places that Dawkins claims he has been 'duped' by creationists several times. The 'stumped' video and now he says he was tricked into being invovled in the expelled movie. Should this be mentioned in the article?Dontletmedown 14:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it has gathered enough attention to be included, nor has it been reported in any reliable sources.--Svetovid 21:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He wrote about that in A Devil's Chaplain. 84.136.206.216 19:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please quote the specific language and cite the page. Thanks. Finell (Talk) 20:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't know, if this will be useful, and whether it is important or not, but Joan Bakewell's review of the God Delusion begins with a fairly sympathetic account of one such duping. This information could be useful, and maybe will be more noteworthy as the Expelled movie is release. I think I've seen such "doubt scenes" on YouTube and wondered what was going on. But is this notable enough to be included in a biography? I'm not sure. --Merzul 21:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dawkins duped? 

message: I have added a line under the religion section. I have the source in The Economist (a very reliable source) 
I am not if it is in the best section, so please feel free to amend it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.238.67 (talk) 23:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check the previous few discussions.  We've been over this recently.  While the Economist article is interesting, the mentions the Dawkings quote only in passing, and in the context of an article talking about people being misquoted and taken too literarly to begin with.  It illustrates very well the reasons why we choose to leave the quote out of the article to begin with.  Cheers, ➪HiDrNick! 23:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments about Jews 

message: The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on Creationism by Michael Ruse, first published Sat Aug 30, 2003; substantive revision Mon Oct 29, 2007, mentions "a new crop of very militant atheists, including the biologist and popular writer Richard Dawkins (2006) ... who are not only against religion but also against those — including non-believers — who do not share their hostility. ... In The God Delusion , Dawkins refers to Ruse and Scott as belonging to the "Neville Chamberlain" school of Creation fighters... Ruse and Scott respond that they were better known as the "Winston Churchill" school of Creation fighters..." Worth a look, and perhaps a brief mention... dave souza, talk 10:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A little ruse

message: Recent addition (and not for the first time): "He gained a second-class BA degree in zoology in 1962...". Yes, it's accurate. But is it worth including? I suspect the motives of those who from time to time insert these words - it looks like yet another attempt to denigrate Dawkins (he only got a second-class, i.e. second-rate, degree). The fact is that the vast majority of degrees from Oxford in the 1960s would have been "second-class degrees". Only a handful of particularly outstanding and/or lucky students got a first. My inclination is to delete the class of the degree, on the grounds that it adds nothing of value and could be misinterpreted. Snalwibma 09:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would using a piped link to British_undergraduate_degree_classification#Second-Class_Honours help the position? Old Moonraker 09:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if that's indeed what he got, then that's what should go in (although preferably using "2.1" or "2.2" or "second-class honours"). However, the citation is his CV from which I see no mention of the details of his degree. So I'm changing it to simply "graduated" until a source is supplied. ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 10:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see how mention of the second-class degree can serve a rhetorical purpose. However, that is no reason the exclude it. On the other side of the coin, I find it interesting that someone who was not obviously the brightest light on the tree went on to do work that was so important. I would not suggest that D is a genius, but I would point out that it is common knowledge that Einstein was not a stellar student. I second that it should be included.LCP 16:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But it seems we don't in fact have a source for the class of his degree - so I suggest best leave it as elegantly reworded by Ajkgordon, at least until the facts can be established. Snalwibma 16:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Sorry I didn't add the caveat.LCP 17:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I suppose that amounts to what we call “magna cum laude” in the US, yes?LCP 23:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly appears to be. In Australia at least an Honours degree is (or was, there is more flexibility these days) required to progress to post-graduate (Masters or Doctors) degrees. --Michael Johnson 00:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Would still be great to have a source. ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 09:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Second-class degree

message: Quick, someone take a free picture of him where he looks even more evil and demonic! If that's possible--Bernard Marx (talk) 22:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, yes! Even Conservapedia have a more gentle picture of him. And they really do think he's a demon. AJKGORDON«» 22:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seriously, guys, this same picture () is used in a lot of articles on Wikipedia, and the picture is just awful. I wonder if it's intentional. --Bernard Marx (talk) 23:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main picture 

message: The history page shows a great deal of vandalism almost daily, maybe we should semi-protect this article. What do you guys think? --Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so. The article is watched by many people and there's little chance of any vandalism sticking for long. Also, there's not enough of it to be genuinely disruptive. Metamagician3000 (talk) 22:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for Semi-protection 

message: Each edit should be treated on its merits and I can see little wrong with the latest, cited quote from Dawkins, that he is a "cultural christian". It is wrongly formatted, and probably could do with a little more context, but User:NBeale's "nice try" might be worth consideration, this time. --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, you're right. I have had a go at reintroducing it with a bit more context. Snalwibma (talk) 11:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quoting RD in TGD: "We can give up belief in God while not losing touch with a treasured heritage" might help for context. --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:24, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cross posting of the latest edit in the article and my suggestion above: The revised edit stands very well as it is: no need for support from TGD. --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The original is at 43mins 10secs into the recording. It's well worth a look, but it doesn't cover much new ground. Go to the reference and follow the links. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of "Cultural Christian" 

message: The last para of "religion" says: Of "good scientists who are sincerely religious", Dawkins names Arthur Peacocke, Russell Stannard, John Polkinghorne, and Francis Collins, but says "I remain baffled . . . by their belief in the details of the Christian religion".[60] Dawkins writes, "There's all the difference in the world between a belief that one is prepared to defend by quoting evidence and logic and a belief that is supported by nothing more than tradition, authority, or revelation."[61].  However ref [61] is a quote from something written 10 years before ref 60 (TDG) and has no connection with the scientists named or with "good scientists who are sincerely religious". Furthermore the 4 people named are well-known for having written books which seek to defend their Christian beliefs "by quoting evidence and logic" - and although (obviously) Dawkins finds their arguments unconvincing he doesn't deny they make them. So I think we should either delete the 2nd sentence or at minimum reverse the order. NBeale (talk) 12:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless anyone objects I'll make the edit suggested.  Comments anyone? NBeale (talk) 18:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good scientists who are sincerely religious 

message: Someone (not me) has placed a Neutrality Dispute tag - we'd better have a discussion about it. There is a somewhat adulatory tone. For example "earned him the appellation" - well he's also called "the high priest of atheism" by The Times but I've a feeling that this might get a slightly different reaction.  Are there ways in which we could, or should improve the neutrality? NBeale (talk) 12:12, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ummmm... suggest a new wording and we can discuss it. I can't think of a better way of putting it. Mikker (...) 13:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My Wikipedia experience is limited, but in my opinion it's almost a given that all articles about controversial figures or concepts will always be considered non-neutral by a significant number of people. In other words, I don't see that Neutrality Dispute tag as being something one needs to worry about. Just consider it to be a permanent part of the article. (This is probably not official Wikipedia policy, though.) --RenniePet (talk) 15:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feeling a bit silly - I wrote the above before seeing that the Neutrality Dispute tag had been added by a hit-and-run anonymous IP user, and that the tag has already been removed. --RenniePet (talk) 15:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look we can't just remove the Neutrality tag without discussion. I'm not keen on anonymous edits (indeed I think WikiPedia would be better without them), but I believe that research shows they tend to be no less accurate than signed ones. Let's have a proper discussion.  Can anyone make the case for non-neutrality, or shall I try? (PS seems to have been a visitor from Japan so may be less familiar with WP conventions and argument styles) NBeale (talk) 15:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion about article's POV repeats regularly and you have contributed in these debates before. So acting like it's something new and like you just came here and discovered that leaves a strange feeling.--Svetovid (talk) 16:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi NBeale - and a happy cultural Christmas to you! "We can't just remove the Neutrality tag without discussion"? Oh yes we can, given that it was anonymously applied with no reasons given. But if you want to give reasons why you think the article is not neutral, go ahead - though I think it's been argued over ad nauseam previously. But I'm not quite sure what you propose to do with the description "high priest of atheism", or what "slightly different reaction" you predict. Do you mean you want to include it, but think that the Dawkins acolytes will reject it? Seems a pretty good description to me, from a good source, and perhaps it should go in alongside the Darwin's rottweiler tag. Snalwibma (talk) 17:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort. Teapotgeorge (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, NBeale. None of these four points is an issue of POV, though they do suggest some improvements that could be made to the article. (1) The "adulatory" tone is a matter of opinion. Coming from your POV I can indeed understand why it appears so. Others would, I think, describe it a reasonably balanced biography. (2) Let's add the "high priest" comment. Done. (3) Yes, the language used (e.g. argue vs. suggest) could probably be tidied up to advantage. (4) Yes, there is probably too much flim-flam (though it's nothing in comparison to the flim-flam from the anti-Dawkins lobby that gets added from time to time!). Let's work on tidying it up. I must add a comment, though, because I am genuinely puzzled - Why do you find Dawkins so threatening? If he is so clearly absurd, and his arguments so self-evidently wrong, why do you bother to devote so much time to trying to counter them? Why not just leave him alone and rest on your certainty in your christian god (who, by the way, is surely far a more absurd figure than Dawkins!)? Snalwibma (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Snalwimba. I didn't originally insert the POV tag - but out of courtesy to our Japanese visitor I do feel we should give the issue a fair consideration. As the policy states "if there is a dispute about POV then there is probably a dispute" and we REALLY should give people (say) 5 days to make some comments.  WikiPedia is not a Private Members Club.  Thanks for your edit on "high priest" though Svetovid immediately reverted it.  I'll make one big edit to restore this and deal with the argues issue, but I really think we must as courtesy and policy leave the tag in for a few days. To answer your question - why do some Christians bother to refute Dawkins' ideas?  Because (a) he does mislead a lot of people, esp if they have no grasp of philosophy of religion or physics (b) some of us feel we have a "calling" to philosophical apologetics.  Hewish didn't bother to address Dawkins until the wife of a friend said she had been persuaded by TGD to stop attending chapel. NBeale (talk) 19:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "(a) he does mislead a lot of people, esp if they have no grasp of philosophy of religion or physics" - no facts, just your opinion.Again, you just proved you are interested in your limited POV and nothing else.--Svetovid (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi Svetovid. How or why does being clear about one's POV (in response to a questions from Snalwibma) "prove" that I am "interested in [my] limited POV and nothing else"? The whole point of NPOV is that everyone has a POV, and together we get the articles to be NPOV. NBeale (talk) 08:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any "third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" to support your POV? That is the only point.--Svetovid (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Asking for reliable sources to support a POV is completely different from claiming "you are interested in your POV and nothing else" - so I take it that you are withdrawing that assertion.  There are a huge number of people who consider that Dawkins is misleading when he strays out of his field, and I don't have time to go through all of them!  But I found this at the Royal Institute of Philosophy by Mary Midgeley which is very interesting, even though it's not the strongest example. NBeale (talk) 18:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You only insert things that you like and not something you disagree with or does not support your stance somehow even though it's factual.That article, written by a moral philosopher and full of metaphysics and semantics, does not support your claim that "he does mislead a lot of people.""There are a huge number of people." Where?--Svetovid (talk) 20:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not a democracy. You need to show why a nickname from a single newspaper editor is notable.--Svetovid (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW (though I'm not going to fight over it) I think the "High priest of atheism" label fits well in the intro, as an example of the kind of label applied these days to Dawkins. It's not in itself particularly notable, but it is a good example of a type. Dawkins is known for two things: (1) evolutionary theory, and more recently (2) atheism. Both these aspects should perhaps be reflected in quotes in the intro. That's why I think it's quite a good idea. Snalwibma (talk) 19:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seriously, we're including the fact that one journalist once called him "the high priest of atheism"? If you do a Google search on "Darwins' Rottweiler" you'll find numerous sources labeling Dawkins as such. "High priest of atheism" is not a common label and just POV pushing. Dawkins is a very outspoken atheist for sure, but a high priest? Should we also include in the intro that Dawkins is wholly misguided, because one source claims him to be so? mensch • t 18:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Times is still considered the newspaper of record in the UK, and if The Times says Dawkins "has become the high priest of Atheism" this is more than one journalist calling him so.  There are over 1k ghits on this phrase and at least 80% of them are about Dawkins from what I can see. It seems there are actually fewer ghits for "Darwin's Rottweiler" Dawkins (despite it having been stated in WikiPedia as an "appellation that he has earned" and none of them is in a paper as authoritative as The Times. NBeale (talk) 18:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: NBeale - I don't know where you get these spurious "ghits" figures from! For the record, there are 10 times as many google hits for "darwin's rottweiler" dawkins as for "high priest of atheism" dawkins. And as for the crazy notion that the Times is the "newspaper of record" - well, that piece calling RD the HP of A was an opninion piece and in no sense an official record. Stop arguing from authority! I still think it's not a bad example of the kind of thing Dawkins is called, and I'm not averse to seeing the phrase used an an illustration (and actually the "priest" metaphor is also quite a good example of the sort of nonsense it's an example of) - but I utterly reject the particular arguments you trot out in support of including it! Snalwibma (talk) 19:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi S. I now get 849 for HPoA Dawkins and 973 for D's R Dawkins - though when I looked earlier it was from memory c 745 (?odd).  And The Times piece (actually The Sunday Times) is a news item by 2 leading ST journalists. NBeale (talk) 22:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality Dispute 

message: I've not been around for a while... and it seems the ELs have deteriorated substantially in that time. I restored a version of them from June, which I think is much much better. Please let me know if this is somehow controversial. Mikker (...) 13:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ELs 

message: Dawkins insists that he is opposed to racialism and implies that he is a British patriot when he says that 
his father was in the war-time British army. His publisher speaks of his fierce intellect. British 
patriotism leads logically to Teutonic supremacism and white racialism. Dawkins is self-contradictory.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.51.240 (talk) 12:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a fine example of a slippery slope fallacy and reductio ad absurdum. For a greater effect, it should have ended with Dawkins eating babies.-Svetovid (talk) 13:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. Or with Dawkins being the anti-Christ. But, fun as this is, 217.41.51.240, please see WP:NOR. Mikker (...) 10:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictions 

message: The comments by Martin Rees and Robert Winston were deleted on the grounds that they were "repetitious me-tooist criticism".  Rees is the President of the Royal Society and Winston is probably the UK's best-known doctor. Their views on this are extremely relevant. If anyone else is quoted as saying the same thing in the article (which I can't see) then their comments should be considered for deletion. NBeale (talk) 22:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted, NB - I didn't think I'd get away with that deletion for long! (Though I hope you noticed how I reversed the order of the two sentences at the end of the Religion section, as you suggested.) But the use of those quotes from Rees and Winston in this article is indeed "me-tooist", in the sense that they were tacked on to the end of the section with no particular relationship to the flow of the "story", and for no particular reason other than that someone found them and saw them as more sticks to beat Dawkins with. The fact that they are both distinguished scientists is irrelevant. What matters is whether they said anything significant about Dawkins, and preferably anything which has not already been said and reported in the article. I reckon they add little or nothing of substance. I have had a go at reorganising the section, but I have retained all your precious distinguised commentators. How does it work like this? Snalwibma (talk) 22:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Much better. FWIW I don't make an argument from authority that they must be right. I merely think that the reader should know that some of the most distinguished scientists do not agree with his approach (in fact the vast majority of world-class scientists who have commented on Dawkins do not agree with his approach - but that is "OR" and not suitable for the article.) NBeale (talk) 22:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Points by Martin Rees and Robert Winston