Talk:National Alliance (Italy)

message: Alleanza Nazionale has distanced itself from Mussolini and fascism, especially in the recent years, that it the main reason most die-hards left it, its transforming into a moderate right wing party. Listing it as “neo nazi” is unfair. It is a party in the ruling coallition in an EU country.--GeneralPatton
:I think I added it on the basis of a link from Neo-Nazism, which could probably do with a similar note. Sorry about that - David Gerard 08:08, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added it now--GeneralPatton 11:57, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: It is neo-fascist, not neo-nazi. The two ideologies are related, althoug not exactly the same. --Oddeivind 20:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: AN and Fascism

message: I do not know if it should be correct to be cited here, but a couple of years ago, during a nation wide political campaign they borrowed the Pixar A bug's life character Flik for promotional purpose. It is unclear if Pixar never authorized such an use. ALoopingIcon 14:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It wasn't Flik and the most interesting thing is that AN used the carachter in Spring 1998, while the film was released in November. If someone copied one another, this was Pixar copying AN!!! --Checco 23:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Flik

message: AN should, in my opinion be listed among the Italian Neofascist organizations. Oddeivind 06:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It won't. Indeed there's very little neo-facism in AN, which is a respectable national-conservative party. --Checco 20:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don`t you know that almost all the present leaders, including Fini himself were former members of the Italian Social movement? This is definitely NOT an ordinary conservative party. The former Christian Democrats were conservative, but today the closest you would come to conservatives in Italy is Forza Italia. Note the following sentence in the article: "Former MSI members were however still the bulk of the new party." It is no coincidence that most of the members came out of the MSI. Both the MSI and AN were/are neo-fascist parties. The difference is merely one of political style. Otherwise there is very little difference between the two organizations. --Oddeivind 20:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Italian Neofascist organizations

message: It really comes down to what the sources say. The BBC describes the NA as "post-fascist" and quote its leader saying, "I am a post-fascist and I hope that Italy stops talking about fascism and anti-fascism." CNN calls them former neo-fascists. The Guardian calls them post-fascist.
Now, that's not to say that the "National Alliance = fascist!" POV should dominate the article, but it's going much too far to remove references to fascism entirely. We should describe them neutrally as post-fascist, acknowledge that the party originated as a splinter group of the fascist MSI, and summarize the claims and counter-claims about their current allegiances. The current article is a bit of a whitewash. <eleland/talkedits> 00:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MSI was neo-fascist and to some extent post-fascist, AN is neither neo-fascist nor post-fascist. Fini could have said these things in 1993 or in 1994, but then he even declared in 2003 that "fascism is the absolute evil". Off course AN is the direct heir of MSI, but it not post-fascist from any perspective. Moreover, almost all AN members who called themselves post-fascist switched to Tricolur Flame (1995), Social Action (2003) and The Right (2007). Now, aftere these three major splits, there are virtually no post-fascists within AN. --Checco 02:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, I would like to underline that AN policies are far from fascism of any sort: it strongly supports European integration, the United States and Israel, it is economically (and to some extent socially) liberal... --Checco 02:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further to the fasicsm controversy... 

message: "Distinguishing itself from the MSI, the party has distanced itself from Benito Mussolini and Fascism and made efforts to improve relations with Jewish groups."
How on earth are "improving relations with Jewish groups" a relevent second part of the sentence?  The doctrines of Italian fascism are not antisemitic and there are even such things as Italian Fascist Jews. Non of the newer Italian fascist leaders make antisemitic statements either so how is this relevent at all? - Gennarous (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very relevant that AN became one of the parties which are more closer to Israel. Change the sentence as you feel it would be better. No problem. --Checco (talk) 16:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ideology section

message: I noticed that there is a questionable sentence in the "ideology" paragraph, i.e. : "law and order, especially laws aimed at controlling immigration and promoting national cohesion"
I do not see why "control of immigration" and "promotion of national cohesion" are linked together.  "National cohesion" has (hopefully!) nothing to do with law and order and with the control of immigration, but from a xenophobic point of view. 
Since I hope that this is not the case, it would be better to separate "national cohesion" from "law and order". My proposal is to put the part of sentence about national cohesion somewhere else. I do not know where, because in this moment no examples of "laws promoting national cohesion" come to my mind... Then, I will wait for suggestions before removing the "and promoting national cohesion" part.
FrontalAssault (talk) 14:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we definitely need to separate the two things. --Checco (talk) 14:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I would also say something about punishment in general. --Checco (talk) 14:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I made the change you proposed and I had the occasion to update or fix other sections of the article. --Checco (talk) 07:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ideology: law & order 

message: An anonymous user insterted a section about some statements of two senior members of AN. Although I don't think that this is really relevant to the article as Wikipedia is not a last news website but an encyclopedia, I accepted the good part of the section, including good sources from Corriere della Sera, which published the interview of Alemanno which started the whole thing. That is the best source as it is the only primary source. I don't understand your claims: now the section explains exactly what happened with a lot of references. Then the IP started to change the ideology of the party, which is sourced, with things like "cryptofascism", which is obviously incorrect. I ask to the user to stop editing the article in this way, eliminating sourced statements and including unsourced claims.
A final observation: is that section really relevant for the article? --Checco (talk) 13:56, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Corriere della Sera article is in Italian, is it better practice to use English language sources here as most readers wouldn't know Italian and thus would find it hard to verify. The English language sources here are more than adequate. This is a notable controversy. As has been said here before, the previous version was a total whitewash in favour of this undoubtedly unsavoury political party. --84.65.193.186 (talk) 14:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm very sorry that you continue to call my proposal of compromise as "fascist whitewash" and I kindly to ask to stop insulting me in this way. --Checco (talk) 14:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are also Jewish people in the fascist British National Party, but that does not stop it from being a fascist party, although Nick Griffin, like Fini, continues to deny this. If the Democratic Party leadership started praising the Soviet Union, I would take the same position as here. I think you are naive at best here. --84.65.193.186 (talk) 15:01, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The problems here are two. Firstly, I'm very sorry that you don't see any difference between BNP and AN. Secondly, you probably did not read what Alemanno and La Russa said: they may be fascists in their hearts and liars (as you wrote somehere else), but what they said is a little bit different to praising the USSR or fascism itslef. That is why I have nothing against having the remarks cited in the article, even if a section about this late-Summer turmoil is no so necessary in a Wiki article: in order to let everyone read and make his opinion. --Checco (talk) 15:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: What motivates you to say you are "very sorry" that I "don't see any difference between BNP and AN"? I have a healthy distate for all things far right, unlike you. Somehow, I don't think promoting neutrality is your prime motivation here. You think praising the army of a Nazi puppet state is "conservative" and harmless? Do you take me for an idiot? --84.65.193.186 (talk) 15:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I fairly dislike far right parties, but AN is not such party. Italy had a civil war and also Luciano Violante remembered in one of his speeches the repubblichini in an attempt of reconciliation. La Russa did just that, without praising RSI. Anyway in the article there is the exact remark made by La Russa, so what is the problem? --Checco (talk) 15:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You just contradicted yourself, which proves your dishonesty. You said: "they may be fascists in their hearts and liars" Then you say: "I fairly dislike far right parties, but AN is not such party." The AN is rooted in fascism, and if it had really embraced European Christian Democracy then we wouldn't see skinheads saluting at AN victory rallies, as happened in Rome this year. --84.65.193.186 (talk) 15:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant to say that I don't know if Fini is fascist in his heart or Veltroni still a communist, but that they act as true democrats. That some supporters of AN are nostaligic of fascism and that some Democrats are nostalgic of communism is likely, but this does not mean that the two parties are respectively fascist and communist. --Checco (talk) 16:21, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: If you "don't know if Fini is fascist in his heart", then how do you "know" that the AN is no longer fascist? Again, you have lost your arguments here. The Democrats have not praised the Red Army. However, the AN's acting leader has praised the "patriotism" of the RSI traitor army which fought for Hitler, not the Kingdom of Italy. If that is the position of the leadership then it would not be a surprise to see skinheads congregating at AN events. The only difference between Fini, Griffin and Le Pen is that Fini is a better strategist. --84.65.193.186 (talk) 16:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is your opinion: the big difference has to do with their policies instead. La Russa has not praised the "patriotism" of repubblichini, but simply remembered them, exactly as Violante did some years before. The remarks of La Russa and Alemanno are included in the article, thus I don't see the problem. --Checco (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, I do see a problem. The big problem here is your dishonesty. La Russa said they were fighting for Italy. They were fighting for Hitler. You also deleted the fact that skinheads were openly and freely parading at an AN victory rally. --84.65.193.186 (talk) 17:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Alemanno denies that Mussolini's rule was "absolute evil", contradicting Fini's earlier stunt. Yes, indeed La Russa said "they fought in the belief they were defending their country." They didn't and weren't. Political scientist or not, you have proved here that you are dishonest, a fascist sympathiser and a troll. --84.65.193.186 (talk) 17:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm not insulting you, I am stating facts that you yourself have proven on this page. Judging by the other discussions here, you appear to be in a minority of one. See Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. --84.65.193.186 (talk) 17:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You called me a fascist sympathiser and a troll. They're both insults in my view. --Checco (talk) 18:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: No they are not, because you have proven here that you are both. Describing this party as "conservative" is an absurd whitewash and a lie. Incidentally, the source you have deleted exposing the party is the Daily Telegraph, a British right-wing conservative newspaper. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 16:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You accuse me of being fascist (so please at least stop saying that you're not insulting me), above you will find someone describing me as a leftist. That's good: it means that I'm really neutral. Daily Telegraph is a British right-wing newspaper, Corriere is an Italian centre-left newpsaper which interviewed Alemanno: tell me what is wrong with using a primary source. --Checco (talk) 17:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You have proved your allegiances by your clumsy dishonesty here. The Corriere source is an interview, not an expose of the party, and I don't understand Italian so I can't verify it. If British Thatcherites can't trust the party, then describing it as "conservative" is not credible. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 17:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Oh, really? You are not in a position to decide who is covering Italian politics "correctly" and who isn't. Anyway it wasn't a civil war, the RSI was a Nazi occupation with many Italian collaborators. As I said, there are Jews in the "changed" BNP here and the party is still condemned across the British political spectrum. British politicians are rather less naive than some Italian ones. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 17:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: AN and BNP are simply uncomparable: they propose completely different things; also the old MSI was fairly a respectable party if compared to BNP. I don't know how much you know about RSI, but I can tell you that the people perceived it as a civil war and in fact people joined both the RSI army and the partisan resistance (my family chose the resistance and three of my grandaunts were interned in concentration camps by the Nazi with the help of RSI militants - I'm very proud of them). The fact was described as a civil war also by senior left-wingers in Italy, as I told you. I have no more arguments for you. My impression is not that you are biased, but that you simply don't know much about AN. If you have any other things to say, tell it to Nightstallion, who can definitaly explain better than me why AN is not a far-right party as you believe. I know that you are in good faith, so I apologise you for your continued insults. Have a good evening. --Checco (talk) 18:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Again you take me for a fool. The RSI is defined by Wikipedia as a collaborationist Nazi puppet state, as is Vichy France. The AN, FN and BNP are very similar, particularly on economic policy. Thou doth protest too much. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 18:25, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is another issue. Any as far as I know social market economy is not among the core policies of FN and BNP. Many parties anyway propose similar economic policies (and I don't think this is the case of the parties you mentioned), but this doesn't mean the they are identical also regarding other issues. Take foreign policy: AN proposes a totally different foreign policy from FN, including a pro-Israel, pro-US and pro-European integration stance, support for Turkey to join the EU and so on. --Checco (talk) 18:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, Fini is good strategist. You are wasting your time here. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 18:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right on both things. Take care, --Checco (talk) 18:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You can't polish a turd. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 18:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Take care, --Checco (talk) 18:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You can shower me with as many "good wishes" as you like. As I said, you can't polish a turd. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not. Take care, --Checco (talk) 19:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Don't tell me to take care. You have no credibility with your pathetic excuses for this party and the Nazi puppet regime. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 19:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're short of arguments. Bye bye (if you prefer). --Checco (talk) 19:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: On the contrary. Unlike you, I don't write a load of waffle and condradict myself with dishonest arguments. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 19:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Bye. --Checco (talk) 19:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: You are just making yourself look more and more guilty. --84.70.186.74 (talk) 19:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Register yourself with an account and edit the article: we'll see what other users will say. --Checco (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Quit obfuscating. Other users on this page are unhappy with your whitewashing. Again, see Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. --90.241.186.22 (talk) 12:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An admin classified your edit as vandalism and protected the article. I've nothing more to say. --Checco (talk) 17:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits by anonymous user 

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