Talk:Church Committee

message: This article should also mention that (in the opinion of some) the Church Committee’s activities were a factor that led to the 9/11 attacks. Legislation passed in the 1970's kept the FBI and the CIA from communicating. The Foreign Services Intelligence Act (passed as a result of the Church Committee’s findings) created an additional wall between the CIA and the FBI.
(Moved from article page, but I did not write this & I don't agree with it. Cromis 01:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I applaud User:DJ_Silverfish adding all of the seperate subsections of the book II and III to this page.
PROS:
It makes anyone searching for the church report to find this site on google.
It makes it easy for someone who wants to read a particular section of the report.
CONS:
It seems like overkill and makes the article look crowded. It seems unnecessary to add all the sections here, when a user can simply click on the book 1 and 2 and get all of the section headers.
SUGGESTION:
I say possibly delete it,
OR
Add summaries of each section to make it more relevant for continued inclusion in the article. As mentioned, right now someone can simply click on the:
*Book II: Intelligence Activities and the Rights of Americans (412 pages)
*Book III: Supplementary Detailed Staff Reports on Intelligence Activities and the Rights of Americans (989 pages) links and get all of the subsections.
Anyway, I knew User:DJ_Silverfish spent a lot of time wikifying this section, so I did not want to miff him and simply delete it--what does everyone who is watching this page think? Travb 03:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Underlying the discussion about how to respond to the terror attacks was the mid-1970s investigation, led by Senator Frank Church (D-Idaho), into the government's sordid history of domestic spying. Through hundreds of interviews and the examination of tens of thousands of documents, the Church Committee found that the FBI, the CIA, and other government agencies had engaged in pervasive surveillance of politicians, religious organizations, women's rights advocates, anti-war groups, and civil liberties activists. At FBI headquarters in Washington, agents had developed more than half a million domestic intelligence files during the Cold War. The CIA had secretly opened and often photographed almost a quarter-million letters in the United States from 1953 to 1973. One of the most egregious intelligence abuses was an FBI counterintelligence program known as COINTELPRO. It was, the Church Report said, "designed to 'disrupt' groups and 'neutralize' individuals deemed to be threats to domestic security." Among other things, COINTELPRO operations included undermining the jobs of political activists, sending anonymous letters to "spouses of intelligence targets for the purposes of destroying their marriages," and a systematic campaign to undermine the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.'s, civil rights efforts through leaked information about his personal life. "Too many people have been spied upon by too many government agencies and too much information has been collected" through secret informants, wiretaps, bugs, surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, the Church Report had warned.
The article is refering to the Church Committee, and comparing the information uncoverd by the Church Committee to the Patriot Act.
Please read the footnote first. Thank you Travb 21:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Overkill on listing all sections of book 1 and 2?

message: The citation after "U.S. Army's spying on the civilian population" is not germane; it's about the Patriot Act and has nothing to do with the subject of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.124.131.161 (talk • contribs) .
SIGN YOUR POSTS PLEASE! Travb 21:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Underlying the discussion about how to respond to the terror attacks was the mid-1970s investigation, led by Senator Frank Church (D-Idaho), into the government's sordid history of domestic spying. Through hundreds of interviews and the examination of tens of thousands of documents, the Church Committee found that the FBI, the CIA, and other government agencies had engaged in pervasive surveillance of politicians, religious organizations, women's rights advocates, anti-war groups, and civil liberties activists. At FBI headquarters in Washington, agents had developed more than half a million domestic intelligence files during the Cold War. The CIA had secretly opened and often photographed almost a quarter-million letters in the United States from 1953 to 1973. One of the most egregious intelligence abuses was an FBI counterintelligence program known as COINTELPRO. It was, the Church Report said, "designed to 'disrupt' groups and 'neutralize' individuals deemed to be threats to domestic security." Among other things, COINTELPRO operations included undermining the jobs of political activists, sending anonymous letters to "spouses of intelligence targets for the purposes of destroying their marriages," and a systematic campaign to undermine the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.'s, civil rights efforts through leaked information about his personal life. "Too many people have been spied upon by too many government agencies and too much information has been collected" through secret informants, wiretaps, bugs, surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, the Church Report had warned.
The article is refering to the Church Committee, and comparing the information uncoverd by the Church Committee to the Patriot Act.
Please read the footnote first. Thank you Travb 21:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Patriot act

message: After reading a portion of your footnoted article, it looks good. Nice job. Travb 07:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wow, great article!

message: It is unclear what value the "Rumsfeld and the Church committee" section has. Does it actually say anything at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorenbr (talk • contribs) 
:Rumsfield was very opposed to the results and recommendations of the CC. Maybe I should write this better, sorry it isn't clearer. Travb (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumsfeld section

message: This statement:
:The Church Committee investigations have become somewhat controversial, particularly after the September 11th attacks, as investigations are blamed by some for reducing the ability of the CIA to gather human intelligence.
...bears a striking resemblance to this statement, which was removed from Frank Church after discussion on Talk:Frank Church:
:Frank Church has become a controversial figure, particularly after the September 11th attacks, as his 1970s investigations are blamed by some for reducing the ability of the CIA to gather human intelligence.
This is a weasel-worded attempt to blame Church for September 11, and violates the Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words guideline. "Some" are largely controversial figures themselves (e.g. Kissinger) who clearly have political axes to grind. Moreover, the claim, as written, doesn't make sense. The beef would be with the laws enacted after the Church Committee hearings, not the investigations themselves. -- RobLa 23:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This entry should be reworded to include the name & party affiliations of the 3 pols involved, plus an acknowledgement of Kissinger's direct involvement in some of the illegal activities. Knott's published works are not highy regarded in academic circles and have not generated any "controversy" thus far. In fact, if you read, 2 of the 4 articles cited, the American Prospect and Zmag articles, are highly critical of these dubious accusations. Here is another article which categorically rejects the accusations:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010921224410/http://slate.msn.com/pol/01-09-18/pol.asp
The other citation is not a critical examination of the merits of the case, just Sununu's accusation. I do not think the accusations of 3 pols and one secrecy promoting scholar constitute a controversy; they are just accusations. The sentence should be modified accordingly.
One charge, that the Church Committee prevented the recruiting of human rights abusers is ludicrous. Church left the senate in 1980 & died in 85, the CIA guidelines prohibiting (without approval!) the use of agents who work inside foreign governments if they are connected to human rights violations, narcotics trafficking or terrorism, according to administration and congressional sources was from 1995, so not very believable in terms of the Committee hindering HUMINT.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/09/bushlet0920.htm
The one piece of legislation enacted, that I am aware of, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, did set up a court that approves surveillance. If you are going to argue that this court allowed 9/11 to happen, shouldn't you have to produce a rejected appeal in order to have a reasonable arguement/controversy? Cronos1 19:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Controversial figure" 

message: RE:  tag added. I think that a sentence that has four references is not a weasel sentence. Adding all four authors would make the sentence sound bulky and awkward. 68.91.90.91 22:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because there is a bunch of references, that doesn't exempt it from being a weasel sentence. Split it up into several sentences to actually clarify the point being made, rather than having a sloppy and inaccurate summary of the situation. -- RobLa 04:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: weasel

message: "After years of stonewalling FOIA requests, finally a limited release on May 23, 1997 provides abundant evidence of this. On a page called The Guatemala 1954 Documents available at the National Security Archive of George Washington University, we read:
"Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed. Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians."
"
This is misleading. The quote is not from an official document but from a non-governmental organization. Nor do the quote accuse the US of being responsible for all these deaths. Finally, democracy in Guatemala by the end of the 1960 was as good as that before 1954, according to Polity data series rankings, so difficult to accuse the coup of things happening in the 70s or 80s.Ultramarine (talk) 07:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is also plenty of evidence of CIA's ongoing involvement (post 1960) at http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB32/vol2.html in various "counter-terrorism" initiatives. Cronos1 (talk) 22:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Guatemala 

message: I've removed the polity series data as not very useful or relevant to the article. What value does it add? It's just one measure of democracy, a particular quantitative model--and disputed one--out of many others. There is no need to promote this one here, esp. not without critics of it. To do so is in effect having WP give it a stamp of endorsement. That is POV. It adds no value to a discussion. I also removed the telegraph piece that makes a false argument, a straw man fallacy by saying the US can not be blamed for all the deaths, which is very is silly: No one does so. It would be relevant to include only if there is a claim that the US is blamed for all the deaths. Upon further examination it is not actually from a close historical examination of Guatemalan history. It is from an op-ed piece specifically directed at the Nobel prize acceptance speech of Harold Pinter. One of Pinter's comments about Ferguson's article, supported by others, was that "Ferguson distorted the whole bloody thing." This op-ed quote has no place in any scholarly article about any subject matter except perhaps about Ferguson and his issues with Pinter, or vise versa, as that is its polemical context, not an historical study, or scholarly paper in anyway. WP has to have better standards than to include straw man fallacies not repeated by any reliable source.Giovanni33 (talk) 01:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Polity is widely used in hundreds or thousands of studies so a notable source. Ferguson is a professor of history. "One of Pinter's comments about Ferguson's article, supported by others, was that "Ferguson distorted the whole bloody thing."" Sounds interesting. :) Do you have a source? The article is not more off topic than the article about the coup which is not about the Church Committee. How about we remove all the material regarding the Guatemala which is not the topic here? Ultramarine (talk) 04:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Reaction from Pinter about the Ferguson article can be found here...[]. Ferguson's article is clearly not relevant to the Church Committee report, is directed at Pinter, or maybe stretching it someone who says that the U.S. is responsible for all the deaths. I can't see that claim being made in this article. You do not have consensus, so why not wait for other editors to pipe or take to a request for comment? BernardL (talk) 04:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Guatemala material is not on topic. Nor presented neutrally. So removed.Ultramarine (talk) 04:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not entirely sure why anyone would claim the Guatemala material is not on topic. It clearly refers to/and rebutts the preceding statement: ""They were very specific about their effort to destroy American intelligence [capabilities]," remembers Robert Ellsworth, a U.S. diplomat. "It was Senator Church who said our intelligence agencies were 'rogue elephants.' They were supposedly out there assassinating people and playing dirty tricks and so forth...Well, that just wasn't true." Rumsfeld and Ellsworth prevented the committees from dismantling the CIA and other intelligence organizations.[4]" Please identify what you believe is not neutrally presented!Cronos1 (talk) 23:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: NPOV requires the views of both sides. So restored material presenting the views from the other side.Ultramarine (talk) 08:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the Nat Sec Archive quote a view 'from the other side' of the Ellsworth quote? Should your edit remain, will some editor need to dig up a 'view from the other side' of Ferguson, etc? I don't think the scope of this article on the Church committee needs to expand beyond Accusations vs Rebuttal of Ellsworth.Cronos1 (talk) 21:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the Guatemala material mentions the Church Committee. If we include a discussion on Guatemla, then the views from both sides regarding this should be presented.Ultramarine (talk) 21:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Guatemala material rebutts the specific claim made by Ellsworth, that the CIA wasn't "assassinating people and playing dirty tricks and so forth" and is therefore relevant to this article. If you want to make a case that Guatemala wasn't so bad, why not address in the appropriate article?Cronos1 (talk) 21:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The given sources does not mention Ellsworth or the Church Committee. There is another problem. The Elmsworth quote is from 1977. The Guatemalan Civil War lasted until 1996 with the worst atrocities taking place in the 80s. Incorrect to cite what may have happened after the Ellsworth's quote as evidence that the he was wrong when making his statement! As such I must change my objection to that the civil war material should simply be removed.Ultramarine (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that the source does not mention Ellsworth or the Church comittee, but it provides evidence that Ellsworth's characterization of the Committee's conclusions was not accurate.Cronos1 (talk) 21:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How can it do that when it discusses things taking place much later than 1977? Regarding the 1954 coup, that is on the other hand much earlier. Would need a source regarding conditions during the 70s if criticizing this quote.Ultramarine (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No you wouldn't. Ellsworth did not qualify his remarks as being subject to time limitations (The Church Committee's investigations weren't - specifically see wiki on Operation Mockingbird and note the presence of Arbenz! ), he flatly stated that the CIA was not a rogue elephant and rejected the notion that the they were assassinating people which the Nat Sec Archive material contradicts. I am sure the Ferguson material may be relevant to an article on Guatemala, but it is not relevant to the Church committee. A specific charge was made regarding the findings of the committee and evidence refuting that charge is appropriate. If there is specific credible evidence which says that the specific charge is true (post-Nat Sec Archive) or that the Nat Sec Archive documents are not genuine, then I definately see a poinnt to modify, but the Ferguson material is a General comment about the overall condition and does not touch with any specificity on the Ellesworth accusation, the Nat Sec Archive documentation, or the Church committee and should therefore be removed. I would not have a problem with a link to an Wiki on Guatemala where Ferguson's views may be relevant.Cronos1 (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Assassinating people" seems to be easy to disprove. Just cite some of the assassination attempts against Castro. Ellsworth obviously did not make a prophecy about the future to material later than 1977 is irrelevant like atrocities in the Guatemala Civil War in the 80s. The 1954 coup is not a €god example since assassinations was not the primary objective.Ultramarine (talk) 23:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Assassinations are never the primary objective. I suggest you read "Document 1, "CIA and Guatemala Assassination Proposals, 1952-1954" at the National Sec Archive. Ellesworth's assertion is rebutted. The paragraph which deals with Guatemalan history interpretation is not a "balance" to the rebuttal of Ellesworth's statement and should be removed from this article. I believe Ultra and I have discussed this paragraph long enough, time for other editors to chime in.Cronos1 (talk) 14:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Church Committee caused a ban on assassinations so it is probably that this is what Ellsworth was referring to. Would be better to include material the Church Committee actually investigated like assassination attempt against Castro. The CC never investigated Guatemala so less relevant.Ultramarine (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Spare me the ad hominem. "The Guatemala material addresses the specific claim made by Ellsworth about his assertions of the CIA." The source never mentions the Church Committee. If we despite this mention Guatemala we must follow NPOV regarding this topic.Ultramarine (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: False premise that it needs to mention the Church Committee, in order for it to be logically relevant. Its that latter criteria that is the standard, not the former. By that standard, your material does not follow logically, and therefore it should not go into the article. An explication of these logical connections, and your materials lackthereof, have already been explained. Lastly, there is no ad hominen (unlike many of your posts, I might add).Giovanni33 (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Double standard to argue that US critical material can be included despite not mentioning the Church Committee while excluding supporting on the same grounds. Also, what has "Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." to do with assassinations? Ellsworth in 1977 certainly did not state anything regarding what the Guatemalan army did later in the 80s. Ultramarine (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: With respect, this article is not about "US critical material" vs (I suppose) US un-critical material. It is about what the facts relevant to the Church Committee activities.Cronos1 (talk) 22:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. To twist this into something else, makes the error of either being off topic, or if its claimed to be "on topic' classic OR/SYN violations.Giovanni33 (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Church Committee did not investigate Guatemala. The source for Guatemala does not mention the Church Committee. Also, what has "Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." to do with assassinations? Ellsworth in 1977 certainly did not state anything regarding what the Guatemalan army did later in the 80s. The Church Committee caused a ban on assassinations so it is probably that this is what Ellsworth was referring to. Would be better to include material the Church Committee actually investigated like assassination attempts against Castro. The CC never investigated Guatemala so less relevant.Ultramarine (talk) 22:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Before I continue, I have to ask: why is it you insist on editing in a very strong, matter of factly manner, article which you know very little about? Usually when one is ignorant about a subject matter, they are not so bold to argue matter of fact. When that does happen, as it does in your case frequently, the result is not positive. If you knew much about this subject, you would have known that the Church Committe did investigate Guatemala. I highly recommend you educate yourself about an article's subject. Interest alone, and a POV, is not enough. It seems that you are only looking to make any kind of argument you can to push a pro-US govt. POV, no matter if you even know what the arguments about the actual subject matter is about. This, I think, is not what editors are supposed to do, and not why WP is here for.Giovanni33 (talk) 23:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

text: "The Church Committee did not investigate Guatemala." Yes, it did. As has already been discussed, operation Mockingbird http://www.heart7.net/cia_info.html#45 & http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1169&relPageId=60Cronos1 (talk) 22:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your source have section on this. Why are you not citing this instead? Also please answer my other points.Ultramarine (talk) 22:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

text: "www.heart7.net" seems somewhat dubious as a source. Is it an official doument or someone's personal summary of the report which was several volumes long? The text have a section on Guatemala without listing any sources.Ultramarine (talk) 23:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it cited in the article? No. It is not a "source" but is an example of more than one instance where Guatemala is discussed relative to the Committee's activities.Cronos1 (talk) 00:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

text: What human rights view expressed in which Church article? Why are you citing Montt's regime in the 80s as evidence against Ellsworth's 1977 speech? The Church Committee caused a ban on assassinations so it is probably that this is what Ellsworth was referring to when speaking about assassinations. Would be better to include assassinations that the Church Committee actually investigated like assassination attempts against Castro.Ultramarine (talk) 08:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "What human rights view expressed in which Church article?" Are you serious? Why don't you read the article and your own posts above?Cronos1 (talk) 14:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, why are you citing Montt's regime in the 80s as evidence against Ellsworth's 1977 speech? You cannot possibly accuse him of lying by citing what happened after he made his claim.Ultramarine (talk) 14:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No one is "citing Montt's regime in the 80s as evidence against Ellsworth's 1977 speech". You are the one who has cited the polity series as evidence that the quote you find objectionable is not accurate. Yet, when one looks at the polity series ratings and report, one finds that their is no real basis for claiming that it contradicts the quote! Cronos1 (talk) 15:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You just cited statements regarding Montt above. Again, atrocities during the Guatemalan civil war, most taking place in the 80s, are not relevant for the truth of a claim made in 1977. The Polity material does not mention the Church Committee. Atrocities by the Guatemalan army are not assassinations or dirty tricks by the CIA at any time. Why is this statement included "Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." Are you arguing that this is assassinations by CIA proxies? That would be OR which is not allowed.Ultramarine (talk) 15:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "You just cited statements regarding Montt above." I cited statements from a source you represented as contradicting the views of human rights groups; the source does not contradict the views of human rights groups. "Again, atrocities during the Guatemalan civil war, most taking place in the 80s, are not relevant for the truth of a claim made in 1977." You are correct and that is why no one has attempted to say that they are relevant to the claim in 1977. All the Pre-1977 evidence contained in the Nat Sec Archives is relevant though, if you can admit this and that no one is trying to introduce Montt, etc. about a claim in 1977, we can continue. Otherwise, you have failed to establish a consensus which would allow your off-topic edit to remain.Cronos1 (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So you agree we can remove ""Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." from the article?Ultramarine (talk) 08:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing at a time. The issue under discussion is your edit which a concensus says is off-topic. You have claimed that it is necessary to maintain balance; it is not. You have not been able to explain how the edit is informative to either the subject of the Church Committee, Ellesworth's statement or the rebuttal of that statement. Once this issue is resolved, you may wish to discuss issues you have with the article.Cronos1 (talk) 15:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." is the principal statement I oppose. OR to argue that the Guatemalan army was CIA proxies. Just absurd to mention what happened after 1977.Ultramarine (talk) 19:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Some changes

message: It says: " A precursor to the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the committee investigated intelligence gathering for illegality by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) after certain activities had been revealed by the Watergate affair."
Which committee? It is unclear whether the subject is the Church Committee, or the Senate Select Committee.  Also, the lead seems incomplete, see: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section)  --68.127.92.76 (talk) 22:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear writing, Lead section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is surprisingly little on text and links to find in the article concerning key aspects of the relevations: no link to Cointelpro, a one-liner mentioning on influence operations abroad and at home, no mentioning of drugging US citizens uner MKULTRA.
This makes it seem as if the Church Committee solely uncovered opening of mail and surveillance of US citizens.
212.203.51.95 (talk) 17:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  one-sided: make's it seem as if the CC were only about surveillance