Talk:Padania

message: Don't know who wrote this article but I'm Italian and actually from north Italy and no one use Padania to mean north Italy. Padania is a political term use from Lega Nord Party but is not use from population.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.192.196 (talk) 16:24, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern Italy synonymous????

message: Article should have country like layout, with all possible data like population, GDP, GDP per capita and everything else that is possible to find and is usually included the table that country articles have. Or alternatively article should be split to one that just mentions the term Padania and another one that is about proposed new state and has state article layout.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4rdi (talk • contribs) 00:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Layout 

message: These recent anonymous edits include some useful material worth keeping, but there are (1) major removals that I think should be reversed (especially, there is a decrease in emphasis that this term is closely associated with the politics of the Northern League and (2) the addition of a "precise" definition of the boundaries of Padania that gives no citation, and that I doubt has a solid basis, since from what I can tell, Umberto Bossi has repeatedly used the term in different senses. I'll give at least 48 hours for others to weigh in before I do anything to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radical rewrite 

message: Pampas Republic and Volkstaat were recently added as "see alsos", I'm guessing because they are also would-be separatist states backed by right-wingers. This seems to ask for a category, not for see-alsos; I'm not sure what exactly that category would be, since the difference from, say, the independence movement in Chechnya is a bit hard to put one's finger on. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was I who added those related articles links, with the common denominator being that they all constitute movements with a (more or less serious) secessionist agenda that are based in economically advantaged regions. I don't think that a special category is necessary for that, it is merely meant as otherwise unrelated examples of a quite similar scenario. Yes indeedeeyo. //Big Adamsky 01:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The thing is, adding them as "see also" links without comment is more or less an Easter egg for anyone who doesn't already know what is the relationship. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also vs. category 

message: I am sure there is interesting material here which could be incorporated into this article and/or the article on the Po. Once, that is, it has been turned into English.
===Origin and previous existence of the name===
The term derives from the name of its more important river. In the antiquity the Po was indicated with three names: two - Bodincus and Padus - of aboriginal origin and one of foreign attribution, Eridanus. Bodincus (or Bòdenkos) is from Liguria name of origin characterized from the idronimic radical retoligure bod that it would be for "ditch" which the identical celtic term is connected also bod meaning "alveo/profondità" (R. Chevallier, Geography, Archaeology and History of the Gallia Cisalpina, 1988). Bodincus would be therefore to mean "deep water course", "river lacking in bottom" (G.B. Pilgrims, Italian Toponomastica, 1990).Il radical bod would be a apofonica shape of the celtico pad of analogous meant that it is to the origin of the Padus term. That would mean a substantial identity between the two denominations (tried also from the Greek badus, "deep") that they would have had an overlapping employment and - second some students - also they would have been used in order to indicate two parts of the course of the great river: Bodincus that advanced and Padus that inferior Per the term Padus (or Paudus) has been also assumed an other origin: according to Metrodoro of Scepsi the name derives from the fact that the source of the river was encircled from pines of a type that the Celts called Padi, from the Gaulish term of pades that it meant "resin" (P. Boselli, Toponimi Lombardic, 1977). The Padania term is by now of normal running use and has replaced the ancient Gallia most recent Cisalpina and Lombardy and Italy Superiore or Settentrionale.Ne makes text also uses teatrali like the Giuann Padàn of the prize Nobel Dario Fo, the systematic employment on authoritative historical banns like Middle Ages, or of geopolitics like Limes (that it has quite published a monographic number named "Italy between Europe and Padania") or of art, like Po, sottotitolata "Notebooks of Po" and published culture from Frank Maria Curly. For some years (1991-94) review of "Society has been published from the Italian branch (office) of the prestigious publishing group Hyde Park Group one, atmosphere, economy, traditions", titolata Padania. The term today is systematically employed from all the daily paper (also foreign), finds in the title it of numerous books of various editrici houses (Sugarco, Larus etc) and has entered in the running language. In 1992 the Foundation Agnelli has published a most famous named study: "the Padania, an Italian region in Europe", than, to part the adjective (end) too much possessiv, renders the idea well
—Ian Spackman 21:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section Moved from Article 

message: The term derives from the name of its more important river. In the antiquity the Po was indicated with three names: two - Bodincus and Padus - of aboriginal origin and one of foreign attribution, Eridanus. Bodincus (or Bòdenkos) is from Liguria name of origin characterized from the idronimic radical retoligure bod that it would be for "ditch" which the identical celtic term is connected also bod meaning "alveo/profondità" (R. Chevallier, Geography, Archaeology and History of the Gallia Cisalpina, 1988). Bodincus would be therefore to mean "deep water course", "river lacking in bottom" (G.B. Pilgrims, Italian Toponomastica, 1990).Il radical bod would be a apofonica shape of the celtico pad of analogous meant that it is to the origin of the Padus term. That would mean a substantial identity between the two denominations (tried also from the Greek badus, "deep") that they would have had an overlapping employment and - second some students - also they would have been used in order to indicate two parts of the course of the great river: Bodincus that advanced and Padus that inferior Per the term Padus (or Paudus) has been also assumed an other origin: according to Metrodoro of Scepsi the name derives from the fact that the source of the river was encircled from pines of a type that the Celts called Padi, from the Gaulish term of pades that it meant "resin" (P. Boselli, Toponimi Lombardic, 1977). The Padania term is by now of normal running use and has replaced the ancient Gallia most recent Cisalpina and Lombardy and Italy Superiore or Settentrionale.Ne makes text also uses teatrali like the Giuann Padàn of the prize Nobel Dario Fo, the systematic employment on authoritative historical banns like Middle Ages, or of geopolitics like Limes (that it has quite published a monographic number named "Italy between Europe and Padania") or of art, like Po, sottotitolata "Notebooks of Po" and published culture from Frank Maria Curly. For some years (1991-94) review of "Society has been published from the Italian branch (office) of the prestigious publishing group Hyde Park Group one, atmosphere, economy, traditions", titolata Padania. The term today is systematically employed from all the daily paper (also foreign), finds in the title it of numerous books of various editrici houses (Sugarco, Larus etc) and has entered in the running language. In 1992 the Foundation Agnelli has published a most famous named study: "the Padania, an Italian region in Europe", than, to part the adjective (end) too much possessiv, renders the idea well
—Ian Spackman 21:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin and previous existence of the name

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://vec.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxèna_prinzsipałe
** In Padania on Mon Jul 17 15:02:49 2006, Non-ASCII Characters in URL: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe8' in position 14: ordinal not in range(128)
** In Padania on Thu Jul 27 00:39:49 2006, Non-ASCII Characters in URL: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe8' in position 14: ordinal not in range(128)
----maru   (talk)  contribs 04:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: Why does this classify German as a 'minor' language it Italy? South Tirol is almost entirely German speaking. Ameise -- chat 02:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm… because South Tirol is a small and relatively sparsely populated part of Italy? - Jmabel | Talk 00:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So it is undeserving of proper statement? Ameise -- chat 01:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything deserves a proper statement. But what would that statement be? —Ian Spackman 12:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it a political unit of Italy? Check. Does the majority of the population in that political unit speak German? Check. Hence, it is a major language. Ameise -- chat 13:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I am sure I didn’t need to follow up any of your checks. (As a hitch-hiker I was given a lift there in 1972 by a German-speaking—and back then I could speak a little German—driver who was very amused at my puzzlement that he was addressing me in German, and continued to explain the situation with some vigour but without a hint of bigotry.) But I still cannot quite (or at all) see how German could be described as a major language of Italy. A significant language, obviously. But major in Italy as a whole? I repeat: what would the statement be exactly? —Ian Spackman 13:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article does not cover Italy as a whole, it covers 'Padania' or northern Italy, of which South Tirol is a much larger part than Italy as a whole (I would estimate 50% more important). Instead of stating "major and minor" languages, you should state what languages are official languages in certain areas, and then minor languages that are not. Ameise -- chat 05:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: 50% more important? Yes, from an utterly tiny piece to merely a tiny piece. And I say this even as someone with a friend from Camporosso, Udine. - Jmabel | Talk 03:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  But tis' a piece never-the-less. Ameise -- chat 06:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure. So it is mentioned. As minor. - Jmabel | Talk 02:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tirol 

message: The article doesn't mention any argument used for (or against) secession, as if being Nothern(/Southern/Eastern/Western/Central) Italy is sufficient and implicitly understood reason for independence. The article should be changed to stub. Transpadane Republic could be also mentioned. Pavel Vozenilek 04:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguments? 

message: Is the languages map correct?
I found some inconsistence:
* Some province boundaries are obsolete, and there are some missing province (that's not important here, but some reference lines can be helpful)
* Some dialect are wrongly assigned to regions/province, instead to proper historical influence.
For example, the "Piedmontese" is not so "The language of Piedmont" and not so extended: Novara dialect is Western Lombard (and has almost nothing to deal with Turin: It's essentially like Milanese, apart some use of wovels)
Silimarly Verbanina and Ossola have dialects similar to high Lombardy (Como) and Switzerland (Tessin) with some enclaves of Germman/Walser. Piemontese starts from Vercelli towards Turin. 
Similarly, Tuscan is not for the whole Tuscany: it start from Massa going to south. Carrara and northern are still Ligurian.
Emilian is not spoken in Piacenza (They are like Lodigian, similar to Milanese: essentially Western Lombard)
Verona is more Esat-Lombard than Veneto (That strongly start in Vicenza).
Again, Calabrian Greek dos not go down to Reggio (that's similar to Messina - although no-one in Reggio will admit :-) ) and Sicilian should be distinguished in Eastern and Western.
Can this be corrected ?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.68.115.230 (talk) 10:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  languages 

message: Where does this statement come from?
Quote
alternative name for Po Valley, historically also known as Lombardy
Unquote
The Po valley is not equivalent tto Lombardy, Lombardy is a big region lying between the Alps and the Po valley, however the Po valley is in the teritory of: Piedmont, Lombardy, Veneto, Emilia-Romagna, Trentino, and even a bit of Marche.--Biopresto (talk) 08:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, Lombardy in the sense of "a political entity belonging to the Italian state" (i.e. "Regione Lombardia") only dates back to the early 1970's. For many centuries before that the name Lombardia/Longobardia" referred to the geaographical (and in some cases politico-geographical) area now known as the Po Valley, and after which the italian region was named. It may be wise to clarify this earlier on, or perhaps separate "Lombardy" from "Regione Lombardia"? --Dakrismeno (talk) 12:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Po Valley = Lombardy?

message: Wikipedians, pls don't let yourself be fooled around by the quoted "authorities" like Gianni Brera or such as basis to uphold the concept of "Padania" as historically and intellectually founded. We can find a few academically recognized intellectuals (not just journalists as the one above) who will subscribe the past/present existence of Atlantis and Utopia. This doesn't make such places historically founded (and yet they have surely more valid literary and cultural ground to be discussed and studied than Padania). 
There has never been a Kingdom of Padania, a Confederacy of Padania, or a Padanian identity that anyone with some authority, inside or outside, recognized as unitary and homogeneously distinct from the rest (eg in the way we distinguish Switzerland and Austria from France or Germany). Padania is a superficial 1980s gdp based construct that ignores its own immensely different regions. Let alone the Tirol / Trentino, which is related to Lombardia exactly like Lombardia is to Euskadi or to Bohemia... even considering the other regions We never had any linguistical or cultural unity in the zone.  
We had the Serenissima Repubblica, the Regno di Savoia, the Repubblica di Genova and the Ducato di Milano roughly in the place of the current Veneto, Piemonte Liguria and Lombardia, yes indeed; but as anyone who isn't ignorant of his own history will tell you, they were as much different between themselves as they were with the Stato della Chiesa or with the Regno di Napoli or with the Signoria di Firenze, and never, since the Gothic Wars, under any circumstance (until after the Napoleon occupation) - they were part of the same entity, forming a single kingodom and separated from the rest of the Peninsula in any unitary and independent "padanic" form. 
On the contrary, Milan and Venice have been extremely bitter enemies when independent countries, and Milan (OMG) was part of the Spanish Empire alongside Naples and Sicily. Same is about the alleged economic unity of the region (eg Padania related to Switzerland or to Germany rather than to Rome or Naples because of strongly related economies).... USA, China and Saudi Arabia due to oil, exports, imports and investment have massive economic relationships, but this doesnt make them a single sovereign country nor their interdependence makes sensible and reasonable any attempt to see them as a single nation.
So we don't have 1 Padania - neither in history nor in culture. We've 20 regions with 20 histories and one common national interest in EU context. Any claim of "Padania" historically, ethnically and sovereignly differentiated from the rest of the country is fiction (even the inconsistent and extremely temporary episode  of the COmuni - so much quoted as if the other 800 years following them didn't matter more- doesn't involve the whole territory vindicated by Padania and it was characterized by a random alliance to preserve municipal privileges, rather than by a conscious desire of "unity").
Padania is an artifical myth, although I am sure there is a public in the area willing to buy and vote the fable. The facts on the ground are that the term is a populist political invention of the last 20 years, with limited currency out of Lega Nord and a quite imaginary history (eg they fundamentally claim to be descendants and related to the CELTS). Pseudo history that needs to make a wikipedia page about itself to prove it exists. If citations are needed I am sure we can provide plenty.... Right today even some of the political allies of the proponents stated that Padania doesn't exist... http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/News/Politica/La-Padania-Fini-ce-solo-lItalia-Bossi-10-milioni-pronti-a-battersi_579069713.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.26.253 (talk) 20:04, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you read the article? I'm not sure about the subject of your claim. Does the article say that Padania is a state, or does it say that Padania is the name proposed by Lega Nord for an independent Northern Italy?--Grasso83 (talk) 17:45, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Misrepresented as academically recognized

message: The most important thing ,here in a Padania's article, would be show numbers about fiscal imbalance between the Italian state and Padania.
:I agree with you: that would matter a lot. Can you write something about it? --Checco (talk) 20:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. This page is about a political/geographical term, and not about a country. For economic imbalance between the Italian regions, use Economy of Italy.--Enok (talk) 00:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no doubt at all that at least 7% of Padania's GDP is taken by Italian State without any devolution. That is forbidden in Germany by federal law: Karlsruhe Court allowed only 4% of each land's GDP for inter-regional solidarity  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.4.120 (talk) 10:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Write this in the article Padanian nationalism or Lega Nord#Ideology. :-) --Enok (talk) 11:07, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not talking about ideologies, but about facts.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.4.120 (talk) 11:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're right. I didn't say that.--Enok (talk) 11:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

text: The IP user (83.38.4.120) is perfectly right and what he says can be said about the next talk. This article is not about Padanian nationalism, a limited ideology, but about facts. Padania is a much broader concept that what Enok thinks and I am strongly worried about what he has done to this article. I respect everyone's opinion and I preferred not to tell it before, but it must be recalled that Enok is a well known edit-warrior and that he often lacks a neutral point of view: this is why he has already been permanently banned from it.Wiki. I ask the IP user both to take a look to the edit I made yesterday, which was promptly rollbacked by Enok today, without any respect for other people's work, and to edit the article by adding economic data. Padania is definitely not a country, but it is both a proposed country (which will never exist, in my view) as it is a broad political, cultural, economic, etc. concept. The article should reflect this, Padanian nationalism is a different kind of thing. --Checco (talk) 12:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: On Wikipedia I was banned permanently on my request, you can read the whole story here. Do not try to shame me to be right.--Enok (talk) 13:24, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not the whole story and you know it, but it is better for everyone if we stop here. I didn't want to attack you, but you will understand that a total rollback is not a good idea to start with. I assume your good faith and I respect you and your views. Let's talk only about the article. Let's continue in the talk below. --Checco (talk) 13:52, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not the whole story and you know it. If you want to explain me this sentence, my talk page is at your disposal. Otherwise, avoid talking about things that you do not know.--Enok (talk) 14:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiscal imbalance 

message: The "country infobox" added by an ip editor  to this page regarding an alternative name for the Po valley which has been adopted by a political party as the title of a hypothetical state covering a much wider territory  is grossly misleading and, imo, wholly inappropriate. Will revert. —MistyMorn (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: This morning User:Enok came back to this page and made huge edits, without consulting anyone and against previous consensus. He also moved Padanian nationalism to Padanian independentism. I would like to express my disagreement with the content and the method of the afromentioned edits (see 1 and 2).
Let's start with the article's move. I agree with Enok that there is no "Padanian nation", but, as an independent editor of this encyclopedia, I have to say that it is a fact that there are people who believe there is a Padanian nation and who campaign for it. We might disagree with them, but they exist. "Nationalism" is the term which is universally used in en.Wiki in reference to movements who proclaim the existance of a nation. Secondly, "indipendentism" is macaroni English. I will also remove the section named "In popular culture" because that has nothing to do with the movement and it is instead related with the term "Padania" itself.
Regarding the edit done by Enok to this page, I have to say that it is not consistent with the consensus of this talk page and can be described as unmotivated removal of encyclopedic material. As said, we may not agree with Padanian nationalists on the concept of Padania (as said, that's my case), on its very existance as a nation or on its independence, but we can't ignore that "Padania" has been mentioned in popular culture and that there have been opinion polls on Padania's independence. Finally, I think it is proper and appropriate to explain in this article what Lega Nord means (or has meant) when it talks about Padania. The title of the section Enok removed, "Lega Nord's Padania", is quintessentially NPOV. I will thus revert Enok's edit to this page and invite him, once again, to discuss.
I'm very open and interested in improving this article, whose consensus version is not Holy Grail to me. I thus reccomend Enok to leave aside unilateral edits and to discuss in this talk page his proposed edits. I'm sure we both dislike edit wars and that, despite our disagreements, we can do our best to profitably work together.
--Checco (talk) 09:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you to use the Padanian nationalism's article to push your POV.--Enok (talk) 16:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Information about the independence movement can easily fit on this article, and it's clearly relevant. The article only has 17kB of prose after all, hardly too much. CMD (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Not even Scotland, Catalonia or Bavaria have opinion polls about secession in their articles (and they are real nations). --Enok (talk) 05:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. You'll note also that even with the secession polls, this article is far smaller than any of those. CMD (talk) 12:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

text: I agree with CMD. Enok shouldn't dismiss arguments like mine with simplistic and unconditional comments as "I suggest you to use the Padanian nationalism's article to push your POV". Also, total rollbacks are not reccomended. There is a clear consensus on the inclusion of the infos Enok wants to delete. Finally I would like to point out again that it's unrelevant what we personally think about an issue (in this case both Enok and I agree that Padania is not a nation): we need to be neutral as much as we can, and the infos Enok wants to delete are clearly relevant to the article. --Checco (talk) 14:51, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

text: I don't want to delete nothing. I want to move informations about Padanian nationalism in Padanian nationalism's article. --Enok (talk) 19:19, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That information can still be retained here. Article's overlap. CMD (talk) 22:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Moreover, what Enok says is not true. A lot of stuff he repeatedly removed (-9,456 bytes) from this article was not included (only +1,550 bytes) in Padanian nationalism. And all the stuff he deleted is inherent with Padania not the nationalist movement. --Checco (talk) 09:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Padania and Padanian nationalism 

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