Talk:Guthrie's Memorial, Isle of Man

message: I removed two references from the article which had been placed after the first two words in the article ( "Guthrie's Memorial" ).  The references may well have good information, but references are to be used to support statements.  If they aren't used to support any statements in the article, yet one wishes to recommend them to readers or future editors, then a different way to include them is by including them a "Further reading" section.   Or they can just be noted on the Talk page, as being available for future editors to use, perhaps. The references removed are thisIsle of Man Green Final page 3 29th April 1939 "Jim Guthrie Memorial" and this.TT 100 The Official Authorised History of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Racing page 25 by Mick Duckworth (2007) Lily Publications Ltd  – "....The entry to Guthrie's is three kinks taken as one - and fast. It took me years get them right, so you have a good squirt at the right hander....It has a bump in the middle and you avoid running wide coming out where the camber will hide-side you.... The Mountain Course. A lap of the legendary circuit accompanied by the record holder John McGuinness.
Misplacement of references as was done here appears in many Isle of Man articles. --doncram 04:39, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Missplaced references removed from article

message: I have just removed text suggesting significant differences between the Snaefell Mountain Course (SMC) and other Isle of Man courses, because that implication is apparently incorrect.
Explanation: In the lede of this article and 30-50 other articles on "named corners", there have been statements suggesting the Snaefell Mountain Course is one of several racing courses on the IoM, including the Highland Course and the Four Inch Course (FIC), which presumably are or were different courses.  Based on their repetition and assuming good faith, I believed the implication of all these statements, although I did not myself understand exactly how the courses are different.  AFAIK there is no map at any IoM article showing any two or more of the courses to compare them.  It has seemed to me that the reader was perhaps supposed to read all 30-50 named corners articles and figure out, from whether each one is stated to be on some/all of the courses or not, where the differences are.  Towards helping readers, at List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course I began to make an effort to clarify which corners of the SMC corners were/are included in the other courses, all in one place.  However, I've recently been informed by an editor in this diff with edit summary "Removing confused non-relevant section. removing poor written English (Four-Inch Course and Snaefell Mountain Course are the same course" that at least the FIC is the SAME as the SMC.  
That is essentially the case, I understand now.  Per the Four Inch Course article (permalink to latest version, the FIC is virtually the same as SMC.  This is despite the implications of the named corner articles and the fact that the FIC and SMC have different articles.  The FIC article's first four sentences seem to imply that the FIC is a different topic than the SMC, then the 5th sentence says it is the same, and later in the article it is clarified that the current SMC course is slightly different than the original FIC due to a small change of route of the SMC in 1920 that added .25 miles additional distance.  The change involved turning differently at Cronk-ny-Mona and must have dropped one or more corners and added one or more others, but is nonetheless minor.  
Also, I basically understand that any "other" race courses are not very different. (Sure, apparently very early on the motor-cycles could not climb hills that autos could, so motor-cycles went a different way on part of the course, for a few years, still not a major difference.)  SO...I have now removed the following text passage from this article:
Its placement in the lede of the article, especially, suggested it was important to make the distinction between the Highland, FIC, and SMC courses.  It is better to state simply that this corner is part of the SMC, and allow the reader to learn at the SMC article about early history of its use, and about any small differences amongst early versions of the SMC. --doncram 14:47, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a ridiculous and facetious assertion. The auto racing course and racing was a very large part of the development of the TT Races.  Removing the paragraph removes the link to the auto races and also the TT Races which the reader has to go to the third section to find the information.  Use common sense that the article has to provide the same information for a reader looking at just only one article and not necessarily wanting to look at all the articles to find the information or having to look at article history or talkpages. It is a case of providing constancy and addressing problems of article notability. The auto racing Highlands course was a substantially different course. The motorcyles transferred to two different courses before technical developments allowed them to the same course used by the autos. The auto Four-Inch course led to the development of the Snaefell Course.11thmilestone11thmilestone (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of text suggesting significant differences between SMC and other IoM race courses

message: ===Present title===
I am not convinced this article should be titled as Guthrie's Memorial instead of what I would expect - Guthrie Memorial
The familiar, informal contraction would be Guthrie's, as Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man could be referred to as Kate's, Sarah's Cottage, Isle of Man could be referred to as Sarah's, and Governor's Bridge, Isle of Man could be referred to as Governor's. 
===Renaming of article(s)===
This article was renamed in April 2015 (diff) from Guthrie's Memorial to Guthrie's Memorial, Isle of Man.
There is no other article named as "Guthrie's Memorial". Wikipedia Manual of style advises using WP:COMMONNAME (where there is no need for disambiguation). It's not common usage to include ", Isle of Man" on the back of Guthrie's Memorial. This appears to me as an attempt to rename articles - with no Talk page discussion - as a way of using Wikipedia to promote the Isle of Man name without justification.
I will now start to collate other articles that did not need renaming for disambiguation purposes, starting with: 
*Kate's Cottage renamed as Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man in March 2015 (diff) (no other article named as "Kate's Cottage" on Wikipedia)
*Creg-ny-Baa renamed as Creg-ny-Baa, Isle of Man in March 2015 (diff) (no other article named as "Creg-ny-Baa" on Wikipedia)--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 02:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title 

message: This article was renamed in April 2015 (diff) from Guthrie's Memorial to Guthrie's Memorial, Isle of Man.
There is no other article named as "Guthrie's Memorial". Wikipedia Manual of style advises using WP:COMMONNAME (where there is no need for disambiguation). It's not common usage to include ", Isle of Man" on the back of Guthrie's Memorial. This appears to me as an attempt to rename articles - with no Talk page discussion - as a way of using Wikipedia to promote the Isle of Man name without justification.
I will now start to collate other articles that did not need renaming for disambiguation purposes, starting with: 
*Kate's Cottage renamed as Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man in March 2015 (diff) (no other article named as "Kate's Cottage" on Wikipedia)
*Creg-ny-Baa renamed as Creg-ny-Baa, Isle of Man in March 2015 (diff) (no other article named as "Creg-ny-Baa" on Wikipedia)--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 02:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming of article(s)