Talk:Incapacitating agent

message: Nothing I have read from military documents suggests incapacitating agents, such as BZ, 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate, render the subject or victim unconscious. They are fully awake but totally out-of-control. There is no way to know just what will be the subject's actions.
If anything a knockout gas could be an incapacitating agent.User:Kazuba 21 Mar 2007
:Col. James S. Ketchum, MD, US Army (ret), in his book Chemical Warfare Secrets Almost Forgotten: A Personal Story of Medical Testing of Army Volunteers confirms what you said.  Dr. Ketchum was the man responsible for human experimentation of BZ and three or four chemical analogues while at Edgewood Arsenal in the mid-late 1960s to early 1970s.  His experience, as related in his book and in  a interview with The New Yorker's Raffi Khatchadourian, "Operation Delirium" was that even after large-scale testing of BZ at a site in Utah (probably the US Army's Dugway Proving Grounds), it was shown that (a) the effect of BZ could not be predicted accurately enough for it to be an effective weapon, and (b) for the use seriously considered, incapacitation of Soviet spy trawler crews in US waters off the coast of Alaska, it would have been impossible to deliver enough agent to the crewmen to incapacitate them all reliably. loupgarous (talk) 00:36, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

message: I know that LSD was researched for this use, but I've never seen anything that indicated it was ever "weaponized", as the article claims. On Thermonuclear War (talk) 23:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The burden for confirming weaponization of LSD falls on the editor making that claim.  It'd be nice if someone could cite a WP:RS-compliant source for that statement, otherwise we may have to remove or revise it to be supported by WP:RS-compliant sources. loupgarous (talk) 00:36, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weaponized LSD 

message: Use of an unconfirmed gas "unavoidably" resulted in the deaths of "fewer than 15%" of hostages? Citing CNN as a reference? Hardly a neutral point of view; apologist for a baldy planned, badly executed operation about which too many questions remain unanswered by the Russian government more like.
:The active ingredients of the gas were identified by residue on hostages' clothing and in the urine of one hostage: carfentanil and remifentanil, according to "Analysis of Clothing and Urine from Moscow Theatre Siege Casualties Reveals Carfentanil and Remifentanil Use", by James R. Riches, Robert W. Read, Robin M. Black, Nicholas J. Cooper and Christopher M. Timperley in the Journal of Analytical Toxicology.  A paper in the Annals of Emergency Medicine, "Unexpected “gas” casualties in Moscow: A medical toxicology perspective" by Paul M. Wax, Charles E. Becker, and Steven C. Curry speculates that since all fentanyl derivatives are lipophilic (tend to be stored in body fat), that enough of the carfentanil and remifentanil used in the Barricade Theater might have been stored in body fat to require repeated doses of opioid antagonists such as naloxone and naltrexone over an extended period of time to prevent deaths from a phenomenon known as "renarcosis".
:As far as your other concerns, the theater was loaded with enough explosives, electrically controlled by the hostage takers, to kill all the hostages.  The Russians could have told medical responders earlier that they were treating hostages for poisoning with highly potent fentanyl derivatives, and asked for supplies from overseas of naltrexone, the specific antidote for carfentanil, but did not do so in time to prevent hostages from dying.  Apart from that, what would you propose they do?  Storming the Barricade Theater with conventional weapons would have given the hostage takers the time they needed to set the explosives off and kill many more people than died from exposure to the chemical agents used.  
:The outcome of this event shows that it's essential if you use strong opioid agonists as a military weapon to subdue rather than kill, you must have - in advance - large supplies of the antidotes for your weapon to treat those people whose deaths are unacceptable. loupgarous (talk) 00:10, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moscow theatre terrorist incident 

message: An opioid gas such as fentanyl has been used in several recent hostage incidents such as the Moscow theater incident and allegedly in Vietnam in covert capture missions. Johnvr4 (talk) 20:09, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The active ingredients of the agent used in the Moscow Theater rescue were identified by residue on hostages' clothing and in the urine of one hostage: carfentanil and remifentanil, according to "Analysis of Clothing and Urine from Moscow Theatre Siege Casualties Reveals Carfentanil and Remifentanil Use", by James R. Riches, Robert W. Read, Robin M. Black, Nicholas J. Cooper and Christopher M. Timperley in the Journal of Analytical Toxicology. As their names suggest, those are chemically related to fentanyl but much stronger.  Carfentanil is used to sedate large animals in the wild.  Its specific antidote is an opioid antagonist called naltrexone. loupgarous (talk) 00:19, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fentanyl or fentanyl-like gas 

message: I believe I saw reference to the potential use of incapacitating agents in the failed attempt to rescue the US embassy hostages in Iran. Johnvr4 (talk) 20:02, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you find the source you saw it in?  It'd be great if you did. loupgarous (talk) 00:36, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iran hostage rescue attempt 

message: Seems to be more of an umbrella term lacking coverage in medical literature. Most information can easily be merged into incapacitating agent — MusikAnimal talk 16:11, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. I went by the source that said BZ was known as "sleeping gas". Whether or not it puts you to sleep, not sure. This is not my field of expertise, nor am I particularly interested in it, I just didn't think the page on this term should be deleted. You claim it's not notable, but I see usage of the term in a wide variety of reliable sources, including the ones I added. It seems to me more like an umbrella term, and in that sense perhaps it's not notable. For instance, I didn't find any scientific or medical literature defining such a term. I think it is most closely tied to incapacitating agent and content should be merged there, in which case we can make sleeping gas redirect, but I don't have to time to work on that right now :/. If all else fails, consider redirecting, not deleting! Best — MusikAnimal talk 17:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: "Merge with incapacitating agent, and redirect" seems our consensus. If I can find the time, I'll learn how to do both, then do them with sleeping gas. It would definitely improve incapacitating agent.  Thanks for your time on this project.  loupgarous (talk) 08:34, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the material on the use of a sedative aerosol spray to subdue 130 women to be raped over a period of four years in Bolivia to incapacitating agent and changed the heading of the section I put it in from "Date rape drugs" to "Rape drugs" to show the phenomenon is wider than just the use of drugs during dates to facilitate the act of rape. The remaining thing to be done is redirecting "Sleeping gas" to incapacitating agent, and I may get to that tomorrow. loupgarous (talk) 01:05, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

text: Klbrain (talk) 14:47, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Sleeping gas]] 

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message: Why are sleeping gas and knockout gas listed separately? They're the same thing. 2601:282:C00:ABB0:C0D1:91D6:DAFA:1FE7 (talk) 15:58, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate sections for sleeping gas and knockout gas