Talk:Richard Wagner/Archive 8

message: First of all, "In 1822, at age 11, Richard was enrolled in the Kreuzschule, Dresden" is false because Wagner would have been 8 or 9 in 1822 (born May 22, 1813). I would edit it, but I'm not certain whether it should read "In 1822, at age 8...", "In 1822, at age 9...", or "In 1824, at age 11...". Furthermore, I read on this website that he moved to Dresden at age seven, but I don't have anything to confirm if this is correct. Anyone have some more reliable sources?
:I have corrected and edited this section so as to deal with these queries. --Smerus 18:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early life, Dresden 

message: An article (or non-article) exists entitled Bayreuth circle. I have posted it for deletion. Do please take a look - Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bayreuth_Circle - and vote (I hope for deletion, but against if you feel you have to!!). --Smerus 21:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Bayreuth circle]]

message: I suppose this request would call for some fairly drastic (albeit necessary) reconsiderations on a number of Wikipedia articles (perhaps most importantly, its relationship to categorization), but I must strenuously oppose the affixation of the term "opera" to Wagner's music dramas. Indeed, there is an acute difference between the contemporaneously prevailing trends in Italian and French styles of opera and those of Wagner's music dramas (also, several of Richard Strauss' works), so much that it rather stifles comparison. Placing the music dramas of the Ring Cycle under the category of "Operas" is not only a misconstruction of its artistic integrity, but also a false predicate. The distinction is not nearly so arbitrary as one might think, and it is not singularly standard to respect the categoric designations of, take for instance, Gustav Mahler's Eighth Symphony (which adheres to a scarcely traditional symphonic structure) as "symphony" and deny Wagner's discrimination between opera and music drama. The abandonment of this intelligible boundary between opera and music drama bodes ill for the categorization of mid-20th Century musicals as well. I would be hesitant to advance any re-categorisation without the mutual devotion from those competent on the subject, so I will wait before editng the relevant articles. A.G. Pinkwater 22:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute over terms 

message: Wasn't Wagner a Marxist Socialist in his younger days? Can anyone confirm that?
--Donnald 00:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was never a Marxist - Marx himself was little-known at the time. He was associated with Michael Bakunin and with the general Left-Hegelian thinking of the era, which often mixed socialist with semi-mystical nationalist ideas. Paul B 01:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Socialist ? 

message: "his pacifism and anti-Semitism, and with Wagner's uncritical followers. In Der Fall Wagner ("The Case of Wagner", 1888) and Nietzsche Contra Wagner ("Nietzsche vs. Wagner", 1889), he conceded the power of Wagner's music but condemned Wagner as decadent and corrupt, even criticizing his earlier adulatory views of the composer."
This is not literally wrong, but for the reference to pacifism, for which I can find no supporting reference and which doesn't tally with my knowledge of Nietzsche. But the whole passage is seriously misleading--the first sentence suggests that Nietzsche was primarily concerned with Wagner's followers, whereas all the evidence suggests that he was earliest concerned with Wagner's personality, which he was coming to regard as histrionic and inauthentic. Second, it is misleading to suggest that he conceded the power of Wagner's music when a great deal of his late writing on Wagner is concerned with understanding what is wrong with the music qua music; there is nothing much "conceded" in these critical discussions other than the danger of its seductiveness. I know of three places where Nietzsche says something positive about Wagner's music in his late (post 1876, the date of "Richard Wagner in Bayreuth") writings (1) in Beyond Good and Evil he praises the overture to Meistersinger, (2) there's a passage, I don't recall the location but could find it, where he says that Wagner wants to make grand music but that his real gift is as a "miniaturist" and depictor of sad moods [I think this is in NCW, which begins with positive comments], and a letter in which he says that musically, Parsifal is the best thing Wagner has done.
Nietzsche objected to Wagner's lack of rhythm, his histrionic aesthetic, his overbearing personality and inauthenticity, his antisemitism, his nationalism, his reactionary appropriation of Christianity in Parsifal, and much else besides. Whether these objections are fair is not my or Wikipedia's concern, but it is worth noting that in the Wagner secondary literature, it is common to distort the character of Nietzsche's objections the better to minimize them, and making the lead objection to Wagner his "pacifism" (something I don't think he ever discusses, and something that is often thought to be praiseworthy, thus playing the tar someone by alluding to a connection to Germal imperialism game in reverse) while tagging on the end that Nietzsche seems not to have had a problem with Wagner's music of course, who could? is to completely misrepresent the relationship between these two unusual men. Nietzsche's personal objection to Wagner was that he couldn't bear to stand in his shadow. Nietzsche's main public objection to Wagner was that his music was bad and bad for us in the same way that opiate addiction was--it dulled our pain without solving our problems.--Agent Cooper 16:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nietzsche 

message: Angela Merkel is a big Wagner fan. She seems to disassociate Wagner's anti-semitism from his so-called music. Is this possible, were one to understand the connection between classical art and science? and then the link between degenerate music and degenerate beliefs?
please write me a note, should you comment here, that I come check this out.
--Ibykus prometheus 22:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "So-called music"? What else do you call it? The claim that there is a link between "degnerate music and degenerate beliefs" makes you sound like the Nazi here. Paul B 22:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merkel & Wagner

message: I've not looked at this article in a couple of months, but this section on the influence of Gobineau on Wagner has been added which is poorly written, very sweeping in its statements and backs them up only with secondary or even tertiary sources. 
*"The influence of Gobineau in Wagner's mature period, even extending esoterically into his art-work, is very strong." - well personally I don't see any influence on Wagner's operas at all, probably because he wrote the stories for most of them well before he ever met or read Gobineau. 
*""On the Womanly in the Human Race" (1883), a recently composed essay found in Wagner's papers after his death" - a recently composed essay? 
* The reference to Waite's book does not consititue a reliable source for what Wagner actually thought. You would in any case have to ask why (if the Grail knights are the Supreme Race) are the Grail knights not the ones who find the Holy Spear? Why do they waste their time in meaningless ritual, waiting for miracles? The opera shows clearly that the person who can win the Spear is an outsider whose prime virtue is that of compassion. I have to say that I think this section should be removed until something better (ie. more accurate) can be written.--Dogbertd 08:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gobineau and the Grail

message: I've changed the order of items in the article. I thought that, as this is an encyclopedia article and not a polemic, it would be more appropriate to focus on his life and works before plunging the article into the murky depths of Wagnerian controversy: Antisemitism, Racism, Religion and the like. I hope this is OK. --Dogbertd 09:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-ordered article

message: Smerus altered the discussion of Judaism in Music with the following edit summary " I don't think the original text of Wagner is in fact 'clear' as to his meaning - that is why there has been controversy; I hope this rewrite is aporpriately NPOV". I don't have any problem with the rewrite itself, but I think we should be clear about what is and isn't clear. It's difficult to see any  ambiguity about what Wagner means in the last two paras of his article, even despite his horribly turgid prose. He says quite explicitly that Jews should follow the example of Börne. Since Börne converted to Christianity, but did not kill himself, it's difficult to see how anyone can interpret this to suggest that "self-anihilation" could possibly imply that Jews should somehow literally murder themselves. No-one would ever have interpreted his comments this way were it not for a tendency to seek prefigurations of the Final Solution a la Goldhagen. However, the fact that Wagner was not telling Jews to literally commit suicide does not make Judaism in Music some sort of unimpeachable liberal text. It's full of gratuitous vulgar insults and derogatory remarks about Judaism, along with more evasive sub-Hegelian comments equating Judaism with alienation and moral corruption. We don't have to pretend that someone is proposing the Holocaust to convict him of anti-Semitic abuse. Paul B 23:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess it is impossible to know what Wagner really meant, but I agree that a Holocaust is not implied in his article Judaism in Music. It is significant that he ends the article with the example of Börne and that he finishes with the exhortation to Jews that they suffer the fate of Ahasuerus - the Wandering Jew. The only way for Ahasuerus to achieve redemption and release from his curse is by accepting Christianity (ie. by converting, as Börne did). My opinion is that this is why Wagner re-published this article later on in his life, when he was very preoccupied with redemption of mankind and proposed a kind of buddhist Christianity as the route to salvation. Personally I think these sections are too big and unwieldy for the main article, and would like to see them spun out into a separate article where the endless bunfights about what Wagner really thought could be kept separate from the very concrete stuff about his musical achievements.--Dogbertd 10:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clear meaning

message: No mention of Wilhelmine Schröder-Dervient? 
In his autobiography My life, Wagner stated that he decided      to became a musician after seeing Schröder-Dervient perform in theatre.  Coral reef 6.11.2006.
: Millington doubts that the performance of Fidelio by S-D (which Wagner claimed was a huge inspiration) ever happened, and thinks that Wagner made this event up retrospectively.  Though he certainly saw her a lot, later in life, and she gave importance performances of his works which helped his career.  Allansteel 03:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It wouldn't be the first time that W had presented a fantasised version of his past to the reader of Mein Leben (and who was it written for? - that greatest fantasist of all, Ludwig.) I think Millington's argument is that W did not see Mme Schroder-Devrient in Fidelio, but that it must have been some other opera he saw her in. Nevetheless Coral Reef has a point - it would be worth including Mme S-D and her influence - which was real, regardless of the exact circumstances - in the article.--Dogbertd 08:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yep, agreed.  Millington thinks that Wagner used a supposed performance of Fidelio to help his "heir to Beethoven" image.  So I just meant that as usual you have to be careful about Wagner's claims for his inspiration, etc., but S-D was certainly very significant in his career, so worth including. Allansteel 12:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original inspiration

message: This article is now becoming quite large and for a general reader includes much material that is quite detailed and probably of little interest, particularly in the Controversies section. Someone who finds the Richard Wagner article may well want to know something about the man and his works, but is probably not really going to want the minutiae of his thinking on racial degeneration, for example. I propose splitting out the controversies section and having a more condensed controversy section in the main article with a redirect. I've begun work on a new article Wagner Controversies, and provided there isn't a huge chorus of disapproval, will redirect those interested in Wagnerian disagreements to this new article.--Dogbertd 09:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the discussion of his Antisemitism should remain as it is an important part of his reputation. As for the Aryanism section, I agree it's rather marginal. Paul B 12:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not suggesting that these issues are removed completely from the main article, simply condensed.--Dogbertd 19:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Split Article?

message: It is ludicriously repetitive to have a long section on "Wagner controversies" and then an entire other article on the subject not much longer than the original.  Somewhat ungracefully, I'm afraid, I've deleted the "controversies" portion of this article, replacing them with a brief mention of the issue and a link to the other page.  A paragraph on Wagner's well-known antisemitism could feasibly be included here with a brief mention of other controversies and a link to the other article, but anything more than that is probably over-kill, especially since compared to the truly disturbing nature of Wagner's antisemitic views questions like the orthodoxy of his religious beliefs seem to be quite unrelated and secondary, truly sharing in common little beyond the fact that both are controversial.  Also, if such a paragraph were to be written, it should probably come before the final legacy portion of the article, which functions as an obvious conclusion.  
(68.198.181.134 08:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but your edits have already been reverted (not by me). Would other editors of Richard Wagner agree to a more condensed form of the Controversies section (ie a paragraph at most)? Personally I don't think the religious views bit adds much and the parts on antisemitism, racism and nazism are now much more fully explored in the Wagner Controversies article. Wagner's antisemitism is already mentioned in Richard Wagner, and links are provided to both Judaism in Music and the Wagner Controversies article, so it's not as if anyone is trying to whitewash this aspect of his personality.--Dogbertd 11:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dogbertd's proposal sounds OK to me --Smerus 10:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: There short be a shortish section on his ideas. Perhaps "Controversies" is not the best title, since not all of his ideas are controversial. Since he wrote the texts of his operas as well as the music, their meaning is importrant. After all, numerous books have been written interpreting their significance, symbolism etc. His religio-philosophical ideas are therefore important. Paul B 11:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. A change of title in this section might encourage more input. I don't even like the title of the Wagner Controversies article, even though i started it! There still needs to be some description of Wagner's ambivalent position on the unification of Germany, his dislike of Bismark, vegetarianism, anti-vivisectionism etc. I also think theree should be a separate article on his contributions to conducting, stagecraft, theatre design and so on.--Dogbertd 16:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies section 

message: What other composers (before, during or after) Wagner's lifetime romanticised and glorified the Germanic myths? The Most Honourably Great Sir Dr. Robert C Prenic the 3rd, all Adademic Degrees. 07:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Composers on Germanic Mythology

message: Is their a composer/orchestra most respected for performing Wager music and on CD? I have read that the best is Sir Simon Rattle as he "led the first-ever modern performance of Wagner's Ring cycle, featuring the instruments the piece was written for." . Can you get his Wagner stuff? Is their anyone else respected for their performance of Wagners music that can be found on CD? The Most Honourably Great Sir Dr. Robert C Prenic the 3rd, all Adademic Degrees. 09:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I suggest you look at the Wikipedia pages for the individual Wagner operas? These almost always have a section on recordings, and this will give you some idea of the great Wagner conductors (I think it would be impossible to say that there is a "best".) Rattle has not recorded any Wagner AFAIK, but he has performed Parsifal and Rheingold, the latter, as you say, was done with instruments representative of the sound Wagner might have heard. A similar approach was taken by Roger Norrington who issued a CD on EMI of Wagner played using the period style.--Dogbertd 10:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: If you mean the Wagner article, then it is written by hundreds of people from all over the world. For specific parts of the article citations are given. If they are not then Wikipedia is the source. Robert C Prenic 20:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Authentic Music of Wagner

message: I've asked for a regrading of this article. Currently we languish with a B-grade, and I think the work that's been done recently makes it better than that. If not, I'd like to have some clear pointers for ways to improve it.--Dogbertd 09:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Opera project review 2) I agree with Moreschi that this is A-grade. In addition to his comments above, I think a few more illustrations might benefit the look of the article. I'd also suggest removing the infobox. There is a strong consensus developing that they trivialize. (Also isn't the flag of Saxony a modern one? Perhaps Dogbertd would know?) Best regards. - Kleinzach 08:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Ta very much. This gives us some concrete suggestions for improving the article.--Dogbertd 16:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need to get rid of the References section and either add the things listed there to further reading of add them to the notes section as citations.  Having both sections makes it feel cluttered.  We should also make sure that all of the notes are standardized.  I took care of the further reading like this already.  Jvbishop 17:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  B-grade article 

message: Add some information on that neckbeard to the article! Xizer 04:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy crap his neckbeard is EPIC. 

message: I just added a page for the economist Richard E. Wagner.  Obviously far fewer people will come looking for his entry, but I wanted to mention it because I don't know the applicable Wikipedia protocol with regard to disambiguation in such a circumstance, i.e., whether or not the present "Wagner" disambiguation comment is sufficient or if an additional or different notation or a specific "Richard Wagner" disambiguation should be set up.  Thoughts?  Jjb 06:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richard E. Wagner, the economist 

message: This is just a note to explain that I have deleted the Musical Artist infobox as these are no longer being used for composers following exhaustive discussion on both the Compopsers Project and the Opera Project (see Composers page 6.1 and Opera Project 16). Best regards. --Kleinzach 14:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox