Talk:Superman/Archive 1

message: There was a mention of "Supreme"... maybe there should also be a mention of "Mr.Majestic" from Image comics.
:There are many Superman pastiche characters out there of varying importance. I'm not sure it would be practical to list every single one. Kaijan 04:43, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Supreme character

message: A section in this article specifically for the character Superboy is necessary. Kaijan 03:11, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there's probably enough of the topic to justify a separate Superboy article, actually. —Paul A 06:59, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be right -- I've now written a Superboy section that can easily be turned into a separate article (and added to, of course) if it's justified. -- Kaijan 08:12, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the Superboy section into a separate article, but I think the creation of Superboy as a separate character should be mention in the History section of the Superman article. -- Kaijan 01:02, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Superboy section

message: Has the image copyright? Llull 12:50, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Image Copyright

message: I get the comparison to Moses. Spaceship equals reed basket. I don't get the Jesus comparison. Gbleem 06:23, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Moses, Jesus comparisons

message: FYI: Doc Savage had an arctic refuge first. - Sparky 01:54, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Misc.

message: Here are a few trade paperbacks, available at most bookstores that shed an important light on the character:
*A Superman for All Seasons - w. Jeph Loeb a. Tim Sale l. Bjarne Hanssen
written just a year before Smallville, this book tells the tale of Superman as a young man in a timeless, Rockwellian america from confused lad to superpowered metropolite.  Sale + Loeb are at the top of their form in this book, with an amazing script and gorgeous watercolors beyond compare.
*Kingdom Come - w. Mark Waid a. Alex Ross
A fully painted epic in the style of Watchmen, this is the story of Superman the day after tommorow.  Superman has retired, along with many of the greats of the DC universe and given way to a new breed of reckless, feckless superheroes.  What happens when superman comes out of retirement?
*The Death of Superman/World Without a Superman/The Return of Superman - w. various a. various
The DC stable is out in full force as it tells the story of Superman's death and the world's (and his loved ones') reaction as well as his eventual return.
: Excuse me, but it doesn't say "recommended reading" - that was changed to make it NPOV.  As was mentioned before, there is a lot of good information about other variants of Superman here.  If you don't like them being here, make them into their own, linked articles, but do NOT delete valid, factual, relevant information to the subject at hand.  --Rei
:: Excuse me, but I did move Superman: Red Sun to its own article.  If you don't want to bother to notice something obvious, that is your own lookout.  As for the list, It is partially redundant considering Kingdom Come, and now A Superman For All Seasons already have their own articles and the whole list is more efficiently linked in the What links here section of this article and in List of DC Comics publications and has very little relevance here.
:: BTW what kind of idea do you think NPOV is if you think this quote, "Sale + Loeb are at the top of their form in this book, with an amazing script and gorgeous watercolors beyond compare", possibly qualifies as that?  That line is the primarily reason I removed this list considering it indicated that NPOV was not a serious consideration with the creation of this list
::: The flattering terms should be toned down, but the basic summaries should be retained.  Also, how was I to know that you created Red SON (you misspelled it) when you didn't even link it?  If things like Kingdom Come already have articles, by the way, they should be linked from here.  I have no problem, so long as there are links.  Is this not a reasonable expectation?  Rei
:::: They are, in the What links here section of the article.  Also, I examined the revision history of Red Son and List of DC Comics Publications.  According to the evidence, there was no misspelling on my part and no correction by anyone, including you, at least in those articles.
:::: My error, changing the Red Son title now.
::::: Few people ever click on "What Links Here", because it often gives tons of extraneous references.  How much would it hurt you to just put in the couple of links?  Rei
:::::: How about we compromise and add a separate article for Notable Superman Stories?
::::::: Deal.  :)  Rei
"(Kent is probably a reference to the Earl of Kent from King Lear, who shaves his beard and is no longer reconized, as when Superman puts on his glasses to become Clark Kent nobody recognizes him)"  Actually, I was under the impression that the name "Clark Kent" was derived from the real names of Doc Savage (Clark Savage, Jr) and The Shadow (Kent Allard). -Sean 22:11, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional reading

message: The fatal flaw in Kryptonian cellular physiology is the unique radiation given off by kryptonite. In the most minute amounts, the radiation waveforms and high-energy particles emitted by kryptonite can react catastrophically with the very ribosomal chemical that grant a Kryptonian powers. The briefest contact can strip these powers, and further begin a fatal poisoning that totally shuts down cellular activity in the affected areas.
As kryptonite radiation makes its way through the bloodstream, a Kryptonian becomes instantly weak and ill in its unshielded presence, and prolonged exposure will render him or her unconscious (after 30 minutes to an hour depending on the size of the sample, and the current state of his solar reserves), and will eventually (after two to four hours) reach all parts of his body and bring death, usually as the body's immune system attempts to expel the deadly toxin. However, the rate of recovery once removed from the emissions is as rapid as the rate of damage, and the Kryptonian will be back to normal in under an hour after exposure in optimal conditions. Kryptonite emissions can be blocked by lead and other super-dense materials.
Further, the radiation signature of the red sun of the Krypton system (and similar F-class stars) instantly causes the ribosomal structures to lose their stored energy, reducing a Kryptonian to normal humanoid levels.
I question whether the information regarding Superman's ability to donate blood or sire a child should be better moved out of "weaknesses" and into a more apt heading.  Comments? Dyslexic agnostic 09:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Weaknesses

message: Gosh, if this refers to the main article on which I've been working, and not this discussion page, it's an embarrassment.Sfahey 15:07, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks to me like you've been removing some content, although I'll grant that the article was 45 kb long. Everyking 15:28, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I saw the note asking for shortening when the article was over 50kb, and started whittling. I mostly just condensed the verbiage; now it needs duplications removed, and (most of) whole sections moved out. I'm reluctant to take that second step myself, since I'm a fan, but no expert, on the Man of Steel and contributed little of the original material myself.Sfahey 22:23, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Featured article"?

message: Aiming to streamline and get "Superman under 30kb, I removed some items which were too "far out" for a "lead" paragraph or the "synopsis" section.  Other apparent deletions and de-linkings were, as you notice if you labor through the whole article, redundant material.  The music section probably needs its own page.Sfahey 22:17, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits of 10/18/04

message: Is the "How It Works" section in the main article the offical opinion from DC comics, or is it a fan's theory?  If it is the latter, then that section should mention that the explaination is unofficial.
I had my own guesses, similar to what's given in the "How It Works" section.  I supposed that the environment on Krypton was very harsh; maybe a very large planet close to its sun with lots of radiation exposure, like in the first (1970s) movie.  Superman's powers on Earth are an over-reaction to Krypton's environmental challenges on a planet that doesn't have those challenges.  The high radiation lead to Kyrptonian cells using that radiation as a type of fuel (solar power) and for generating a toughness aura (invulnerability).  The higher gravity gave body densities higher than similar creatures on Earth, further increasing the toughness factor.  The aura also had to help counter gravity in general (flight capable) and tidal forces (precision flight).  The sun had a wider range of brightly-emitted frequencies (wide specturm vision).  A sparser atmosphere made vibration and chemical detection more difficult than on Earth (other super senses).
--69.37.220.12 18:24, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: About the "How It Works" section; Alternate Theories

message: There is still much overlap in the "Synopsis" and "History" sections.  One should be Superman's story and the other should be the story of Superman's story. Any takers? Sfahey 20:22, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Final tuneup?

message: The complete umbrella title for the epic storyline in which Superman dies and is "reborn" is "The Death And Life Of Superman".  What you call simply "The Death Of Superman" is actually only part of the storyline as it is the title of the comic book that "kills off" Superman.
There was a novel version of the storyline also called "The Death And Life Of Superman" that came out around the time of the storyline in the comics.
So "The Death And Life Of..." is what we will call it since it emcompasses the entire storyline of Superman's death and "resurrection".
Hiphats 19:44, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Death and Life Of...

message: This page is still too large. Usually I try to create spin-off articles from sections that are too large within specific pages. But no section in this article is particularly large. Maybe the story of Superman and the story of the story of Superman could be covered in separate articles? The article on the story of Superman could contain the synopsis, his abilities and his weaknesses. The meta-article could contain the history, cultural influences and parodies. What do people think about ways of trimming the article? --Susurrus 03:00, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I whacked this thing down from >50 to 32 kb last month, but it creeps back up. See my previous suggestions re other ideas to shrink it.Sfahey 23:53, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Size

message: I think my version of the history is cached.  I tried to revert an apparent copyvio which was notified, but my edit has done nothing of the sort.  Evidently I either am screwing up or my browser is.  Apologies, this is one thing I will not attempt any more to revert lest I do more damage.  --Tony Sidaway 20:59, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Apology--apparent reversion fuckup

message: I kind of have a problem conceptually with this page. I can't tell if the "explanations" for superman's powers and weaknesses are the official DC line, or if it's a writer or fan's attempt to introduce continuity to decades of stories written by hundreds of different writers.
Factually, I can dispute several points, for example that different colored kryptonite was rectconned out of existence after 1986. Crisis of the Crimson Kryptonite took place just prior to his "death", and the story featured superman losing his powers from being exposed to "red kryptonite".  Other problems are that multiple post-crisis stories state explicitly that Kryptonians are physiologically the same as humans, save that they are denser. Density is the stated reason that kryptonians are susceptible to kryptonite, which has higher-velocity radiation particles that "travel through" normal humans. Ignoring that the explanation is scientific gobbledygook, these explanations have been held up within the last 10 years and dispute the contents of this article.
I probably sound like a huge nerd.  Ironically, this is just crap I remember from the occasional superman comic book I'd read maybe once a year. I don't care which story is "right" or which one is "wrong". But it strikes me as problematic to try to enforce continuity on something that really doesn't have any. DC clearly doesn't have a "Superman steering committee" (ha), they just make shit up as they go along. Maybe the article should be shorter on specific details which change with each new Superman writer. Personally, I find it boring to read dwelling on the excruciating and frankly misleading minutiae of superman's powers this week. I'd rather know stuff like how many languages Superman comics are published in, the types of influences that shaped his creation, his influence on the comics industry, which cannot be overestimated.
--Alan D (haven't been here in a while, just stopped by)
::this newcomer to "Superman" makes several good points, which are among the many things that argue for this article to be removed from "featured article" status. i don't feel that strongly about it, but it would be embarrassing for the current "Superman" to hit the front page.Sfahey 23:28, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: big picture missing?

message: Moved from Wikipedia:Copyright problems
*Superman (old edition) from . From "Krypton, a distant planet so far advanced ..." up to "... proof-reader neglected to correct." - Vague | Rant 08:30, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
End moved text
As Vague Rant reverted the offending addition, I've removed the article's listing. An intrepid admin with the patience to click 600 checkboxes can use the new "undelete revisions" feature to selectively remove the three unwanted revisions if they wish, but it's not considered entirely necessary. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:25, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyvio

message: Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 16:53, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
This follows from this. I'm curious as to where "Siegel and Shuster sold the rights to the company for $130 and 3 free nights at a popular New York brothel." comes from. The brothel detail is certainly not in any history of the character I've ever read, and it's not in Gerard Jones' Men of Tomorrow GraemeB 03:46, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for references

message: Not to pick knits, but why was this line included:
"Superman is a loan translation from the German Übermensch (literally "over-man" or "super-man"), which has a distinct meaning and a more negative connotation."
My specific issue is the "a more negative connotation" bit. I can only assume that we're discussing the Nietzschian Übermensch. A blanket negative characterization of Nietzsche's Übermensch is a bit unfair and highly inaccurate. It is a result of the common acceptance of Nazi propaganda and not Nietzsche's actual writings.  Nietzsche was no more an advocate of racist facisim than Winston Churchill. He was a bit nationalistic in The Birth of Tragedy, but winds up beating on Germans the most in his later writings.
You should read the Übermensch entry. ... and also Thus Spake Zarathustra. It's a great book that's chocked full-o-wisdom... although I disagree with the Wikipedia article. It should be read in order. "The Other Dancing Song" section makes much more sense that way.
Sorry for the interjection.
--Jrbennett 17:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Übermensch negative?

message: I'm not sure why there needs to be any explanation of Clark Kent's effective disguise:
I seriously doubt he's the ONLY black-haired, blue-eyed, 6 foot two athletic guy in a suit in Metropolis.  Not EVERYONE who wears a suit is skinny or fat.  So being tall and strong does not guarantee a puncture in his alter-ego.
My take is that he does just fine with nothing but glasses.  Glasses make the geek.  I'm speaking from experience.
Tom in VA
:The story referenced was a late 70's attempt to explain the "how his glasses disguise" worked---since of course, in reality, anyone would probably recognize someone in glasses vs. the same guy sans glasses. However, it was unpopular enough that it was quickly retconned away/ignored ever since, as, like you said, it didn't *need* an explanation. Hence, my use of the phrase "suspension of disbelief" with this being a comic book and all (just as we can believe that he can fly, that Batman can jump from rooftop to rooftop without breaking his knees, etc.). :-) Anthony Dean 01:24, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
--CDTM 
:You don't think there needs to be any explanation?  Superman doesn't wear a mask, he just wears glasses as Clark Kent.  That "disguise" is unbelievably and unrealistically effective in the DC universe.  In real life Lois Lane would have caught on pretty quickly don't you think?  A "suspension of disbelief" is quite necessary here.  --Wade A. Tisthammer 22:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Suspension of Disbelief"

message: Can we have a source for this? No original research. If this was thought up by one person and others ran with it, or if it is some sort of "hard-core fan consensus" (i.e. fanon), we surely must be able to give external references that confirm this is at least a well-respected theory. I doubt it's canon in any sense, but that's not necessarily a problem—it does have to be pretty wide-spread to be included in an encyclopedia, though. We can't engage in speculation, even plausible speculation. 82.92.119.11 28 June 2005 11:43 (UTC)
--[[User:CDTM|CDTM]  There's one more thing..  The Superman article claims that Superman needs to eat and drink, as stated under weaknesses: " Like humans, he needs food and water to survive."   I haven't seen such examples myself, and this quote from DC editor Eddie Berganza seems to contradict this:
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/inter-action/inter-action.php?topic=ask-eddie/ask-eddie-0704
"
Eddie's Answers
Christina (nrgyzrbunni@yahoo.com) asks:
Okay, compared to all of the other questions, this is rather simplistic but I when asked this question by my co-worker, I couldn't answer it with any degree of certainty. Does Superman NEED to eat? I know he DOES eat but is it a necessity?
Eddie: He derives a lot of power from the sun, so techinically he could probably do without, but since he grew up eating Ma's home cooking, he wouldn't enjoy not actually eating."
Now, maybe once upon a time he did literately "need" to eat, but I'd like to see a reference of this being a necessity.
:I just cleaned up some spelling typos in the "How Superman's Powers Work" section, and I was dismayed at the entire section. First, the attempts to rationalize what are basically magical powers are fairly humorous, but the whole thing reads as one person's speculation, and not something at all that belongs in a Wikipedia article. I agree with the above: show a source, or remove it. Turnstep 23:55, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How it works, again

message: Apparently my post on here yesterday was lost, but no big deal. The words "traditional" and "edgy" are more accurate and less evocative than "liberal" or "conservative". Karmafist 05:14, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Superman and Liberalism

message: An interesting note. Some people have noted that superman is a translation of the "übermensch" concept. Similarly, "Man of Steel" is a literal translation of Stalin's taken name.
EDIT- These are both true, but the term "übermensch" was coined by Karl Marx, not Stalin.
:Actually, I'm pretty sure it was coined by Nietzche.--Solasis 21:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stalin

message: Like the subject headline states and because the change is POV, besides being part of the regular mainstream DC Comics' Superman continuity.
What am I talking about?  Why, Kent/Superman being married to Lois Lane, that's what.  I personally can't stand her for one, unless she is acting in her time honored capacity as Damsel In Distress.  She can be strong, capable and all, but she still has to be reduced, for all that, to a helpless Damsel in Distress...  
Michael 15:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No Change in store for <u>this</u> online document-

message: I see someone has placed an article length warning on the top of the article, as has been done with Batman.  I have yesterday done some reduction to the Batman article by creating subtopic articles for Batman in other media and Supporting characters of Batman, to go with the previously created Enemies of Batman and List of Batman comics.  These changes reduced Batman from 84 to 57 kb, and cut the article by a third.  As far as Superman goes, the same concept should be followed: so far today I have only created Superman in other media.  Superman is still 100 kb long (down from 105 kb with my one change). I do agree with the above discussion that "Clark Kent" should NOT be moved to a subtopic (or at least should only be moved after all other changes are exhausted) Dyslexic agnostic 18:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Down to 88kb after creating subarticles for Supporting characters of Superman and Enemies of Superman! Dyslexic agnostic 21:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure what your point is... the fact that Superman is important is all the more reason to divide his info into subarticles, for an easier read and better classification Dyslexic agnostic 01:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It's not something to vote on, it's standard Wikipedia policy.  Please read Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Long article layout before you do anyhting else. Dyslexic agnostic 01:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Look, Armand, if you have it so nicely saved in Word, then get cracking on the Enemies of Superman page and make it better! Dyslexic agnostic 02:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added a link from List of villains#Superman to Enemies of Superman. Dyslexic agnostic 02:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: T-man, what does it say at the top of the Superman edit page?  It says, "This page is 54 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size."  So, be part of the solution, not the problem.  I managed to carve Batman down substantially, but haven't gotten time to do the same to Superman yet.  Every kilobyte helps.
As for stalking you... what the %^$#?   Dyslexic agnostic 02:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Eddie, I think you need a long vacation... Dyslexic agnostic 04:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The warning on the top of the edit page speaks for itself. The article needs to be shorter, not longer. Lesfer ☎ 13:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Article length

message: A while ago, I saw a t-shirt that was meant to look like a Superman shirt, but instead of a superman logo, it had a handicapped wheelchair logo.  Can anybody help me find it?  --daunrealist 19:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Handicap

message: Ok, so now it´s done. After fighting a guy that was doing a masacretive downsizing, I've turned the page into a regular size "summary article". With several seccions each one serving as an introduction to sub articles, so that the overall thig has like 3 to 4 paragraphs long and thus some justice to all Superman's aspects is made. I did that to every secction except the history section. So you have your regular superheroes page with links of every aspect that makes superman's world biguer than regular superheroes. Personally i thik either that or go back to the full article an say screw you whenever someone, probaly not familiarized with the work, probably without any real "authority" and probably just expresing very own and very screw-able personal opinion either. This page had meny awards in the past and i feel like puting lipstick on the mona lisa. But if we are going to do this, lets do it right--T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 01:23, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Big Change...Unless sombody could please disagree with me

message: Great work on this page, nice to have a fresh perspective - Dyslexic agnostic 17:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes by [[User:Anthony Dean]]

message: I've been cleaning out the external links section and some keep getting added back in so I figure a rationale is neccesary.  There are so many fam pages on the web devoted to Superman that I think it is unfair to choose any one, and we can't list them all, since Wikipedia is not a web directory.  Therefore, as per guidance at Wikipedia:External links, I have added a link to an open directory's listing of Superman related pages.  Since the site is an open one, it is perhaps better practise that people add their links to that project rather than this one.  I also removed a link to a site which appears to violate copyright, as per Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works. Hiding  talk 16:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: It's a somewhat well known fact that superman could not originally fly, but only "leap tall buildings in a single bound." But does anyone know when he actually flew for the first time? I know alot of artwork looks like he's flying but has been stated he was in the motion of jumping. Elijya 16:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to a previous, longer version of the Wikipedia article Superman gained this ability in the year 1942.  --Wade A. Tisthammer 22:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: When did Superman first learn to fly?

message: From the article: "This Superman wasn't seen again until the miniseries The Kingdom, where it was revealed that he had found a means of exiting his dimension, but chose not to at that time."
Where does it mention that Kal-L can escape the "heaven"? I can see from the first couple of pages of The Kingdom #1 what is (presumably) Kal-L attempting to escape, but nowhere do I see anything that states that he could if it he wanted to. Thanks to anyone who can enlighten me. Dlong 03:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have the copy handy, but the narration at the end of Kingdom #2 indicates that he could, "but not today." --Joe Sewell (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i *do* have it handy.  he's pounding on an invisible barrier abovea presumably fake golden age metropolis.  he looks out into hypertime and sees Kingdom Come-Superman, Modern Superman etc.  and he somehow comes to the conclusion he can escape "but not today."  i'm not sure how looking through the sky at different versions of himself helps him suddenly know how to leave, but okay.  Exvicious 06:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Golden Age Supes Question

message: I was wondering what people thought about changing the image of Superman.  I like the Jim Lee pic, but I thought maybe one of the classic Superman, Golden or possibly Silver Age, would be better.
:i'd like to see the alex ross versions on all the comics pages, but that's just me. Exvicious 06:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it matters who draws it, but I'd like an image with a more frontal perspective. We take it for granted that everyone knows what Superman looks like, but the current image is too shadowed for my tastes. --Rocketgoat 07:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: why is Kal-L listed as a relative.  We don't list Golden Age Batman as a "alternate dimensinal version."  we can't list alternate versions otherwise why not mention Superboy-Prime, earth prime superboy, silver age superman, superman-prime etc as relatives.Exvicious 01:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kal-L as a relative 

message: In regards to the edit of this character's "Notable Powers" section of the Infobox, please see revelant topics at Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/templates and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Infobox: Powers section. Essentially, consensus is that the infobox should be kept brief; descriptions of powers belong in the article body text. And in Supes case, he even has a separate article for his powers. If you have concerns, please feel free to discuss them here or at the talkspace in the two aforementioned links. Thanks. dfg 21:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox powers section