Category talk:Venerated Catholics

message: The :Category:Christian saints is the primary category for the Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints. The project is working with all those parties who are canonized or non-canonized, in the Catholic and other Christian faiths. As many of these "non-canonized" individuals from Catholicism may well qualify as saints under the looser definition used by the Orthodox faiths, it would be somewhat discriminatory to not include them within the scope of the project as well. John Carter 17:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So now you have a situation in which :Category:Catholic saints is a subcat of :Category:Venerated Catholics which is a subcat of :Category:Catholic saints! I can understand why :Category:Venerated Catholics should be a subcat of :Category:Saints, but not of :Category:Catholic saints, which doesn't cover Orthodoxy. A cat should never be a subcat of itself. I should also point out that categorisation and wikiprojects are two completely different things. The former is a formal part of the actual encyclopaedia, the latter just an informal group of enthusiasts. Categorisation shouldn't be dictated by the convenience of project groups. -- Necrothesp 18:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right about the flawed nature of the current categorization. However, the previous categorization structure was just as unconnected as the current one is over-connected. I am in the process of constructing the Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints/Articles list which can be used as the basis for using a function to check on all of the changes in the any of the articles on the list, which will thus be able to focus greater attention on those articles, particularly when it comes to reverting vandalism. As soon as I finish adding the individuals included in the Lutheran calendar of saints to the Lutheran saints list, I will work to revise and clarify the entire categorization structure of the :Category:Christian saints. While your comments are accurate, I think the day or two until the categorization is resolved is probably less of a problem than the previous disconnection of all the categories. And, if you want to fix categorization, there are bigger concerns out there. I note someone has already indicated that all of the :Category:Jainism is a second or third-generation subcategory of :Category:Jesus, which is frankly ludicrous. Maybe you could expend some of your effort in some of those completely inexcusable gaffes, rather than trying to micromanage well-intentioned works in progress as soon as they're started. John Carter 20:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I merely tried to fix something that I found utterly confusing. I did a considerable amount of work on categorisation of saints some time ago, but have been otherwise occupied since and haven't looked at it. When I came back to it today (not particularly intentionally, but by following a link) I was frankly shocked at how disjointed and confused the categorisation had become. If you're in the process of sorting it out then I'll leave you to it, but please don't bite someone just because they're not involved in a particular project and remember that editing rights on topics are not restricted to members of said projects. -- Necrothesp 22:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you had done work on the categories before, as you had stated, I thank you for it. I have just recently started trying to sort them out for the articles list, and have noticed myself how somewhat disjointed they have become. I am now trying to sort them out so that they become a bit more coherent, leaving all the categories of Catholic saints as subsections of the :Category:Catholic saints, and so on. Also, eventually, I am hoping to try to create article lists for each of the categories, particularly the bigger ones, so that people can avoid going through several pages of category to find specific names. Unfortunately, I acknowledge that some of the categorization, including some I have done, is still somewhat random, and am working on it. However, given the proliferation of projects dealing with individual faiths, it seemed to me that we might be better able to improve some saints articles by letting members of the appropriate project more easily see that someone is honored in their specific church, and, possibly, helping improve that article on the basis. I personally would love to find out if there is some group out there (other than stub sorting) who specifically works on trying to clarify some of the stranger categorizations, but somehow doubt there is one or doubt they have sufficient manpower for the task. Also, personally, I only joined the project after I had started to create some of the missing articles from the Catholic Encyclopedia, so my apologies if I took too arrogant or condescending of a tone earlier. Like I said, I'm kind of new here and am frankly stunned by the complexity and convolutions of categorization here. John Carter 22:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's okay. I understand how frustrating it can be when you have a vision of how a categorisation system should work and then someone comes in and disrupts it. It's happened to me. Categorisation can get horrendously complex sometimes, frequently far too complex with too many unnecessary categories which just confuse things. Keep up the good work. -- Necrothesp 00:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusion in Saints category