Talk:Brecon Beacons

message: The following content has been moved from Talk:Brecon Beacons National Park, following the merger. Blisco 15:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely there is more to put. I think perhaps the problem is knowing how to split material between this page (on the national park) and Brecon Beacons itself. Telsa (talk) 11:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: A recent BBC news story ( 'Amazing' Beacons win top honour (which seems to be about six months late) points to the park authority's page: Fforest Fawr Geopark. There's lots more that could be added, so I leave the URLs in the hope that someone will get around to it before I do :) Telsa (talk) 11:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Geopark

message: Most of the national parks in England and Wales have one article for the NP and the geographical area, so it makes sense to do so here given the paucity of information in both articles. Of course we'd have to make clear that the NP covers a wider area than the Beacons proper. I'd also suggest that once the merger is done, the page is moved to Brecon Beacons; I'm doing it this way round because Brecon Beacons National Park has more information and contains the National Parks template. Blisco 08:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've taken the lack of comment as indicating silent approval, and carried out the merger. Contrary to what I've said above I've moved content from Brecon Beacons National Park into Brecon Beacons, to simplify title issues. Blisco 15:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact it seems to me that there is a case for the splitting of Brecon Beacons (mountain range) from Brecon Beacons National Park since they cover quite different expanses of country.  The national park covers so much more than the range which gives the designated area its name, including of course two completely separate mountain ranges in the Black Mountains and the Black Mountain far to the east and west respectively. Comment welcome! Geopersona (talk) 19:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I agree but the original comment was a while ago :) --Herby talk thyme 19:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it was - it surprises me that nobody has revisted the question in nearly 4 years!  I'll give it some more thought though and see how 2 separate articles might shape up before doing anything precipitately - there are bound to be counter-arguments made and a discussion would be appropriate. Geopersona (talk) 19:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merge

message: I am recommending that separate pages be established for the mountain range known as Brecon Beacons and for the national park which takes their name. The reason for this is that the former extends over just a small area in southern Powys (a few tens of square kilometres) whilst the latter extends over a much larger area including substantial parts of Carmarthenshire and Monmouthshire, extending to several hundred square kilometres. 
The Brecon Beacons National Park is almost alone amongst the British national parks in being named after a small area contained within its boundaries. In the case of the Lake District, Peak District, North York Moors, Yorkshire Dales, Exmoor, Dartmoor, Snowdonia and Pembrokeshire Coast, New Forest and Broads the designated protected area is more or less coincident with the named location.  It is not so in the case of either the Cairngorms or the Brecon Beacons where the name of a single mountain range has been used as convenient shorthand for a number of ranges and neighbouring landscapes assembled into a national park.
In the Scottish example, there are separate articles on the mountain range known as the Cairngorms and on the recently established Cairngorms National Park.  These articles are not without their own issues but the issues are not those of identity of place.
An article which concentrated simply on the mountains east of the A470 road and west of the Talybont – Pontsticill road and which was perhaps titled Brecon Beacons (range) would cater well to the hills.  A separate article titled perhaps Brecon Beacons National Park would do a better job of referring to the wider protected landscape which encompasses that range together with the Black Mountain, Fforest Fawr, Black Mountains and other hills, valleys, moors and settlements between Llandeilo and Abergavenny, between Hay on Wye and Merthyr Tydfil.
Geopersona (talk) 21:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been some debate of a similar nature concerning the Grand Canyon and the Grand Canyon National Park - see the latter article's discussion page.   Geopersona (talk) 04:51, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty urgent to un-merge Brecon Beacons and Brecon Beacons National Park because, primarily, Brecon Beacons are part of the National Park, not the other way around (as it is presented currently). I'm inclined to be WP:BOLD and copy the relevant sections to the redirect. The one big effect it will have is to remove the two sources from the Brecon Beacons article, leaving it unsourced! Sionk (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed divorce 

message: I've uploaded a location map of the Brecon Beacons to Commons (shown to right). I have not created an associated  template, but this can easily be done if desired. 
If this is created, it will enable creation a map of the Brecon Beacons similar to the one under construction at Talk:Dartmoor#Location map, and could be used in related articles (see this example). Hope people find it useful.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location map 

message: I have removed a couple of lines which refers to the mountains as being particularly susceptible to changes in weather conditions and their being dangerous in winter. Whilst these views may be asserted by some contributors, the Beacons are no more or less susceptible to changes in the weather than any comparable area so the text is quite un-noteworthy. Nor are they especially dangerous in winter - hazards there are, just as there are weather and terrain-related hazards anywhere for the unwary - again though it is not a noteworthy aspect of the Beacons.  cheers Geopersona (talk) 09:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dangerous mountains? 

message: I don't find the two sections on 'Towns and villages' of the national park and 'local councils' particularly helpful. Most of the latter are redlinks in any case, at least at present. The former is curiously formatted too. I suggest that they'd be better dealt with in a fashion similar to that on the Dartmoor page where they are contained within an information box at the foot of the page. I may get around to doing that unless arguments against it are suggested. cheers Geopersona (talk) 09:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now made a change. Geopersona (talk) 21:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Settlements of the Brecon Beacons National Park 

message: I removed this inappropriate material (repeated IP details) from the article:
--2.216.86.11 (talk) 16:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material removed from article 

message: I notice that the park is listed under Dark-sky_preserve and that this article is also correctly in the Dark-sky_preserve category - but no mention in the article itself ? EdwardLane (talk) 12:41, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Its International Dark Sky Reserve status is mentioned now. cheers Geopersona (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dark-sky_preserve 

message: More material relating to for example the Black Mountain is creeping into this article whereas there is an article with that name. The problem arises perhaps because Brecon Beacons in the traditional sense extends only across the central range which bears that name ie east of the A470 and west of the Talybont valley. Since 1957 a much larger area has been designated as the Brecon Beacons National Park and since then the term 'Brecon Beacons' has been rather more widely applied, particularly by visitors, to the combination of the (traditional) Brecon Beacons, Y Mynydd Du/The Black Mountain, Fforest Fawr and the Black Mountains. It is often used as shorthand for Brecon Beacons National Park - for which there is that separate article. For myself, I'd restrict descriptions in this article to the smaller, traditional area and not to the wider area. Others will no doubt differ and make comment! cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  What area should this article be about? 

message: Article is briefly semi-protected to prevent an edit-war over pre-eminence for the English or Welsh name. Hoping editors with a view on this topic can discuss here on the talkpage, including appropriate reliable sources. Apologies to any IP editors looking to make unrelated edits: please consider using the edit request function or waiting till the protection expires. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected 

message: It would be helpful to have a map which showed the region's four areas, wouldn't it? Something like the Fforest Fawr Geopark image to the right, although blurred rather than hard boundaries might be better. Am I right in saying that the area boundaries are approximately:
* Black Mountain: everything within the park boundary west of the Tawe/A4067
* Fforest Fawe: everything between the A4067 and Taf Fawr/A470
* Brecon Beacons: everything between the Taf Fawr/A470 and Usk/A40
* Black Mountains: everything east of the Usk/A40, including the Olchon Valley outside the park boundary in Herefordshire
One thing I can't quite work out is whether the range south of the Central Beacons (Cefn yr Ystrad, Mynydd Llangatwg, etc) and the spur of the park toward Cwmbran are considered part of the Central Beacons or not. A.D.Hope (talk) 08:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely missed the above discussion when I was typing this out — @Geopersona and @DankJae, I'm sure you have thoughts and probably know the areas better than me! A.D.Hope (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What you outline @A.D.Hope, is broadly true though I suspect many would associate Cefn Cul with Fforest Fawr rather than Y Mynydd Du/The Black Mountain and might not include Skirrid and Sugar Loaf within the Black Mountains for example. The question of those upland areas in the southeast i.e. Cefn yr Ystrad eastward, is different - they are not readily associated with any of the foregoing but rather with the coalfield uplands to the south though are partly separated from them by the lower ground of the 'Heads of the Valleys corridor'. I'd think most people would view the minor road between Talybont and Pontsticill as the southeast limit of the 'central Beacons' and a southerly limit vaguely around the present day county boundary between the two Taf Valleys. I don't know what sources may have to say on the subject, if anything. Rather than blurred boundaries, just placing the relevant text centrally on the areas concerned might work best. cheers Geopersona (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm quite happy to follow your lead on which exact peaks are within which area, and you seem to have access to the sources we'll eventually need. On central text or blurred boundaries, I think marking the areas boundaries as well we can as we can would be helpful to make it clear that some of them overlap (e.g. Fforest Fawr and the Black Mountain) and that the Black Mountains extend into England rather than stopping at the border. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:00, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know too much about the area tbh, just the names they've used and what for. Happy to help with any map, although can sources be provided for such boundaries? DankJae 10:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Good sources can be provided for the historical area of Fforest Fawr and for the extent of the modern Geopark of the same name. I cannot immediately bring to mind precise definitions of any of the other labels in any references, perhaps partly because these sorts of things are typically ill-defined and vary from one user to another. I'll take a further look though.Geopersona (talk) 10:52, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subdivided area map 

message: I've just switched the infobox over to template:infobox mountain, incorporating the previous national park infobox as a module. I think this allows for more nuance, particularly over names (e.g. if we decide that the national park is now exclusively 'Bannau Brycheiniog' but the range isn't) and the disinction between the beacons range and the national park.
On the latter, should the 'mountain' part of the infobox now cover just the Brecon Beacons range (i.e. Pen y Fan and friends), or all four of the ranges which make up the national park? I can see the argument for either, although for the sake of being BOLD and seeing how it works I've focussed it on the Brecon Beacons range for now. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: When I raised the discussion above I did comment when you converted this article from Mountain range to Mountainous region, what that means. But you edited the article stating that this article is now on the region, then all ranges should be there. I believe in the long term, the range should be split off. DankJae 13:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be easier to split the national park article back off, if that's what you're minded to do. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: We'd end up with five articles – one each on the ranges, and one for the national park. There'd be some work involved to make sure this article didn't include things which don't relate to the Brecon Beacons/Central Beacons, but it's doable. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

text: @A.D.Hope, however I believe this "Mountainous region" is purely because of the national park. Plus if the NP were split off, then it could be under Bannau Brycheiniog. DankJae 14:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the best thing would be to separate the split from the name issue. Move the national park material back to Brecon Beacons National Park, which is where it came from in the first place, then have a separate discussion about moving it to Bannau Brycheiniog National Park. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Still if the two are separate, then BBNP will likely move first at some point. Just stating the possibility. Nonetheless, prefer if these were done through split proposals. DankJae 14:22, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've opened a split discussion below. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: Note: This discussion is about content, not the article name. If the decision to split is made, a separate discussion will be opened on whether to use "Brecon Beacons National Park" or "Bannau Brycheiniog National Park" as the article title. 
I propose undoing my WP:BOLD merge of Brecon Beacons National Park into this page on 9 June 2023. While there is some overlap in content, as the national park covers a much wider area than the Brecon Beacons mountain range it will be easier and clearer to cover the two separately. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the name should follow the April RM, although a separate article is more likely to succeed in a move than this article on the range which wasn't directly subject to the rename. DankJae 23:03, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @A.D.Hope, also as said above, I believe the "region" is conterminous with the national park, this article should be on the mountain range (singular). DankJae 23:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, 'range' would be the word to use if the split happens. This article would be about Pen y Fan and friends, not the wider region. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @A.D.Hope, mind re-wording the heading? DankJae 23:30, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah! Done :) A.D.Hope (talk) 23:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Thanks. But shouldn't the lengthy section about the official name change be deleted from the Brecon Beacons article? It was the official name change for the National Park. Sionk (talk) 13:35, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

text: I've removed it myself. Sionk (talk) 13:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Yeah best at the NP. DankJae 14:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure there's plenty of tinkering to be done, but now the pages are actually split that should be a fair bit easier. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting back into range and national park