Talk:Lewis Hamilton/Archive 1

message: I am planning to complete re-do this page with as much information as possible, Lewis Hamilton is my stepmothers brother so I can receive information from her and also Lewis' mother. Perry 21:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Al Right, if anyone hasn't seen this...then DO SO!!  --Skully Collins 11:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: - but do bear in mind the wikipedia guidelines re. no original work, notability and citing references! regards, Lynbarn 08:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Huge Edit

message: Anyone know what's going on with that hairline of his? Does he shave it?! Damiancorrigan 12:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hairline

message: Someone has changed his POB to Tewin. He was in fact born and bred in nearby Stevenage, but currently lives in Tewin. 
Perry 21:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: His biography (http://www.mclaren.com/theteam/lewis_hamilton_biography.php) says he was born in Tewin. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It now says Stevenage (http://www.mclaren.com/theteam/lewis_hamilton_biography.php) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.140.169.7 (talk) 10:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does. BBC and Yahoo say Stevenage. --Scott Davis Talk 08:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. How do we know which is correct? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 15:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lewis is my stepmum's brother, and while that is not valid proof, I can assure you that while currently residing in Tewin, he was brought up in Stevenage, hopefully some valid information can come through soon. Oh well it doesn't matter really, it's just a shame that so many articles contradict one another. Perry 12:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've cited Stevenage, using Reuters as reference (BBC Caribbean has him "from Stevenage"), since there is no hospital described in Tewin (but the telephone box is mentioned), Stevenage is a more likely birthplace. --Scott Davis Talk 13:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's possible he was born at home. I would have thought the hospital at Welwyn Garden City is closer anyway. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 12:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could be - looking at Google maps, they're all only about 10 km apart - hardly worth arguing over. At the moment the lead says one thing and the detail another, with  next to it, but that's the one that's cited! Anyone from England who can go over and knock on the door and ask? We have reliable references for both, so we might as well pick the right one. --Scott Davis Talk 11:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I live in Stevenage so I could... but it would be original research! And anyway, we already have a bit of original research above! — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have reliable references for two different places of birth - do you know what we're supposed to do to avoid WP:OR in this case? --Scott Davis Talk 02:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. Maybe list both on the article? — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 15:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: His McClaren page (http://www.mclaren.com/theteam/lewis_hamilton_biography.php) and the 2005/6 official site's profile section (http://www.lewishamilton.com/page1.asp) currently give his birth place as Stevenage.Cj the mighty 17:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Place of Birth

message: Is it time to upgrade this from 'stub' to full article? Fasterthansound 01:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A stub is a short article that can be expanded. As it's no longer a short article, I've removed the stub templates. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 03:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stub

message: This article states that Hamilton's parents came to the UK from the West Indies in the 1950s.  I suspect this should read "his father's parents", since Lewis's mother is white. Bretonbanquet 19:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: References are conflicting: Grandfather, father's parents, paternal grandparents, grandfather lives in the western parish of St John's, grandparents emigrated from the Caribbean island of Grenada, parents emigrated in the 1950s. --Scott Davis Talk 08:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: God. Though I think it's fair to say it's clear that it can't have been his parents since his mother doesn't come from there - his father maybe, or his father's parents, but not both Lewis' parents. Bretonbanquet 20:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The dates make it unlikely that his "parents" emigrated, as they would have been toddlers at best in the 1950s, which appears to be the universally accepted date. I've cited BBC Caribbean, but the Reuters reference just before also supports that his father's parents emigrated. Perry, do you know whether his grandfather (your step-grandfather?) moved back to Grenada or never left it (nationnews.com link above)? --Scott Davis Talk 14:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Why would the fact that the mother was white make it impossible that she (or her parents) had lived in the Caribbean? Maybe she isn't from the Caribbean, but her race couldn't be the fact to show this. -*Ulla* 07:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Family History

message: On the table on the bottom of the page, it says the "Final" Standings for his 2007 F1 series is third place. Only one race has taken place, so it is not final at all. Should this be fixed? Downatball5432 13:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final?  

message: I've seen the suggestion on an internet forum that Ron Dennis is in fact his mum's brother, which would explain why such a young driver received huge financial support from a young age. If false, it would be easy to disprove (Lewis' mother's maiden name?) - if true, it's big news. Anybody know either way?--MartinUK 21:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It is definitely false. "Suggestion on an internet forum" is all you need to read to know it's false! 60.241.17.88 12:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related to Ron Dennis? 

message: You lot that are interested and are editing Lewis's article might want to keep close tabs on the Welwyn & Hatfield Times, for this is also the main local paper for Tewin. They will no doubt have a lot of useful information and you can probably contact them for other things like place of birth. Give them questions to ask Lewis, ect. . Govvy 15:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welwyn & Hatfield Times 

message: There have been a number of edits concerning Hamilton's current position (T-1st or 3rd) in the 2007 F1 World Driver's Championship.  Article 7.2 of the 2007 Formula One Sporting Regulations states the following:
:If two or more constructors or drivers finish the season with the same number of points, the higher place in the Championship (in either case) shall be awarded to :
:a) the holder of the greatest number of first places,
:b) if the number of first places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of second places,
:c) if the number of second places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of third places and so on until a winner emerges.
:d) if this procedure fails to produce a result, the FIA will nominate the winner according to such criteria as it thinks fit.
Out of the three drivers who have 22 points, Hamilton is the only one without a win, so he is placed lowest (3rd).  Alonso's one win and one second place beats Räikkönen's one win and zero second places, so they are 1st and 2nd in the WDC, respectively. Please keep this procedure in mind for this and any other situations in which drivers or constructors have the same point total. Majin Izlude talk 23:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I have no strong opinion on the matter - I believe Equal 1st (T-1) etc... is correct as from my understanding the tie-breaker procedures are only applied at the end of the season. So technically he is equal first. However I've not made any edits to this effect as I can plainly see that "If the season ended today" he would be 3rd. -- Rehnn83 Talk 07:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the championship is only awarded at the end of the season! If none of the three scores any more points, Hamilton will be third. I have no strong feelings about which way the position should be shown either - I do, however, have strong feelings about people editing one article and not the other two, so that they are left in a contradictory state. -- Ian Dalziel 15:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007 WDC position after Bahrain is third 

message: Just wondering weather it is possible to have a nicer picture of Lewis as the current one is really clear.MotorSportMCMXC 20:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a photography student myself, all I can say about the title photo is...underexposed, blurred and lacking in the white balance side (too yellowy for non-photography people). Obviously shot by somebody with a diddy compact camera who forgot to switch on his flashgun, although I'm not a flashgun enthusiast myself (make a bright multi coloured photo look dull), but the least I can say is better than a poor quality photo.
For anybody in the UK, if you want to take a photo of him, sans helmet, try this year's Goodwood Festival of Speed as the website has confirmed that he is coming on Sunday 24th June, just get a good photo in the paddock area before the bodyguards and autograph hunters close up on him like they do on all other F1 drivers. Willirennen 15:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: The page http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/whos-who/whos-who-h/lewis-hamilton/ is used as a source in this article, but it appears to be a self-published fan website. As such it may not meet Wikipedia's guidelines for reliable sources. In particular, WP:V states, "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer". --Muchness 19:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That link mentioned above, to a page on f1fanatic has (along with other bio pages) been returning a 404 error for about a week, so it should perhaps be removed until that is fixed, in any case. Regards, Lynbarn 11:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Thanks! http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/f1-information/whos-who/whos-who-h/lewis-hamilton/ 193.243.130.14 08:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I am not disputing the quality of the article, its accuracy or underlying research. However, it is a self-published article on a personal website, and per Wikipedia's verifiability policies, we shouldn't use it as a source for a biography on a living person under any circumstances. --Muchness 21:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry but I don't agree with your point of view. What is a 'personal website' and why is F1 Fanatic one and not, say, the Observer's? Both have multiple contributors, one is just smaller than the other. I'm afraid the distinction smacks of snobbishness. I don't doubt that some people write garbage on websites and then link to it on Wikipedia - but punishing the rest of us for their idiocy is cutting the nose to spite the face. Sorry to force the issue but as I think it's pretty clear I put a lot of work into it and I'm loath to see it deleted on what seems like a very petty technicality, when we've agreed that the material is sound. I've written a lot for other F1 topics on Wikipedia which I think has been decent quality and this does nothing to make me want to continue contributing. 81.154.251.24 20:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: f1fanatic.co.uk as a reference

message: ...on how long it takes someone to "find" evidence of Irish heritage.  ;o) 86.17.211.191 00:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Place your bets now... 

message: It can be proven that he is the second youngest driver to claim his first pole, but given it only took him 6 races to do it (could even be sooner), did he take the least races ever to claim his first pole?TimHowardII 10:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, he's the third youngest (behind Alonso and Barrichello). Villeneuve took pole in his first F1 race. DH85868993 10:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Jacques DH85868993 10:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Carlos Reutemann. -- Ian Dalziel 11:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fastest Driver to claim Pole?

message: Sorry you blokes, but it looks like most of you never learned to write proper English at school. Commas in the wrong place—incomprehensible sentences because of poor punctuation and sentence construction—and so on. 
Does the following sentence mean that his father named him—or both his parents named him after Carl? 
Quote: His mother Carmen, and father Anthony (who is now a successful IT Consultant) who named Lewis after the US Olympic gold medal winning athlete Carl Lewis unquote. 
How about doing this: His mother, Carmen, and father, Anthony who is now a successful IT Consultant, named Lewis after Olympic gold medal winning athlete Carl Lewis? 
Then add: They separated when he was two. (keeping sentences short) 
Otherwise: His mother, Carmen, and father, Anthony, who named Lewis after the US Olympic gold medal winning athlete Carl Lewis, separated when he was two. (you can create a new page for Anthony Hamilton if you wish to expand on his attributes) 
Or try: His mother, Carmen, and father, Anthony who named Lewis after the US Olympic gold medal winning athlete Carl Lewis, separated when he was two. (if you want to indicate that his Dad was the naming agent in the mix) 
I could go on, but this was the bit that was most confusing. If you want to insert the right bit I'll go through and fix the rest of it for you. 
Lin 04:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs huge edit too!

message: Was he signed at age 11 or age 13 to the McLaren driver development programme?  The comments in the Personal & early life section conflict with later comments under the Formual One heading. stan matthews 12:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi I wrote the original line in about him being 13. According to McLaren's press pack issued at the start of 2007 he was "signed by McLaren and Mercedes-Benz to Young Driver Support Programme" in 1998. That would put his age at 13. 86.143.175.202 08:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Signing for McLaren 

message: user:Gdaph recently added the following comment...
But behind this early success, there are people around the F1 that are starting to accuse him of copying two-time champion Fernando Alonso's telemetry. The proof of this would be his good-but-behind-Alonso performances on Friday's practices, after which he would study the telemetry of his teammate to nail it on Saturday's qualifying session. This does not necessarily try to discredit Hamilton's success, but gives evidence that is very easy to start your rookie year in one of the best teams in F1, with probably the best car in the competition and access to a double world champion's telemetry. Hamilton has been very lucky in the first races of the season. Let's just see what happens when pressure and bad times come.
I have removed all but the first sentence, and added a citation needed tag. I don't know where this originated from, but looks rather out of place in an encyclopedia. How can you copy telemetry in any case? - telemetry is the remote monitoring of various sensors, so that readings can be acted upon, often in real time, and alterations made to components on the car.  Seems to me that if the team aren't going to use them to improve  performance, they aren't much use! Any thoughts please? Regards, Lynbarn 19:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Legal is legal and not legal is not. As far as I remember changes between qualifying and the race are now fairly limited, but those that are allowed are legal (by definition). I am bewildered by your insinuation (unsupported by any reference, by the way) that Hamilton is doing something wrong here - the cars are in parc fermé between the end of qualifying and the race, the stewards keep a very close eye on what is changed. Are you suggesting that Alonso is not making changes that he is allowed to out of a sense of honour? Or that Hamilton's mechanics are somehow pulling the wool over the steward's eyes and making illegal changes in parc fermé? 4u1e 08:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would add that Alonso's and Hamilton's driving styles are fairly different - by gross simplification Hamilton is reported to prefer a slightly oversteering car, while Alonso prefers understeer. If true this would make it unlikely that the car settings are simply copied across. 4u1e 08:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Just a comment - IIRC - copying telemetry (from your teammate) is a standard pracice in F1. Teams regularly compare telemtry data (usually to see why one driver is slower than the other). Without the ability to copy (i.e. Share) data there would be no need for Friday's Third Driver. -- Rehnn83 Talk 13:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, Gdaph, a little!  Okay so you can copy it into a simulator, I'll give you that, and I guess he could, by default, feed the same settings into his own car, but in the end, the telemetry can only effect the technology and the mechanics. Hamilton is at the wheel, he is driving the car, and if everything else is the same, then the difference can only be in the drivers. But moving on from that, where is the evidence to support your comment - do you have a reference? Your final sentances sound a bit like a quote from a live commentary, but not one I heard in the UK - is that it?   Ask yourself another question, WHY is he in the best team?, with the best car? and learning from a double world champion?  maybe - just maybe, because they can see something in him that makes it worth their while?  For what it's worth, (a small amount of) my money is on him to win the championship!  Regards, Lynbarn 14:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The telemetry is of use to the driver as well as the car and mechanics - if your teammate is taking a certain corner faster than you, braking later or perhaps in a different gear, it is extremely useful to see what is possible with the same car. It is then easier to emulate your teammate's performance. (edit: Knowing what is possible and being able to do it are quite different things though!) The sharing of data goes both ways of course and is normal practice. Gdaph's comments may be those of someone not familiar with the sport, or may be a garbled repeat of the valid point that Hamilton has access to the full resources of one of the best teams in the business. Which he has (IMHO) earned with his performances in lower formulae. Cheers. 4u1e 14:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  copying telemetry? 

message: The intro claims that "Hamilton has set three Formula One records in quick succession." It then goes on to state two records and two "almost records", and it's hard to see how to get three out of that. The third "record" was originally "first black driver to [do something or other]" but that got deleted I assume. Rather than me wading in, maybe someone more familiar with the history of this material could fix it to make sense? Matt 02:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've re-worded the intro, with more emphasis on the actual records he holds, but also highlighting one (most wins in first season) which is potentially in his grasp. Hope that makes it more appropriate.  Let's see how he does later on today! Regards, Lynbarn 14:33, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done for being bold, although a record "potentially within his grasp" doesn't belong in the lead. I've hidden it for now and have condensed the rest of the information into two paragraphs, rather than six one sentence paragraphs. BeL1EveR 20:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro no longer makes sense 

message: I think the F1 section needs some careful editing, it is turning into a news archive of hamilton's first season. I think essential information should be sufficient to create an informative article, currently there seems to be a lot of waffle and info that could be obtained from the individual race reports if someone was inclined to do so. Do others agree?
: Yes. This is a problem common to many F1 articles and, I daresay, articles on other sports. People like to get in with the updates but editing them into good copy is tricky. Like the above discussion on Villeneuve's remarks, for example. 86.143.175.202 08:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Completely agree. There will inevitably be a degree of updating, and as a general rule this should be treated leniently in the short term (i.e. for the first few days after a race and/or end of season, depending on how notable it is), but longer term there's far too much detail and much of it isn't significant. BeL1EveR 19:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree - although it's usually easier to do somewhat after the event, when the significance (or more likely otherwise :D) of events has become clearer. 4u1e 21:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  F1 Section Trim 

message: I propose that the F1 part has a subsection on records. I haven't been bold and actually done this on the basis that it'd involve a total rewrite of the entire section and because in the aftermath of the race there are a lot of edit conflicts right now. Thoughts? BeL1EveR 20:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there really enough content? Just a thought. Anyway, if you're looking for a precedent, there's  a similar section in Michael Schumacher, so I can see no reason not to have one here. One plea though (after lengthy debates on MS): Please can we have real records, and not the rather strained ones that some people indulge in (i.e. first left-handed driver to finish 5th three times in a row in a leap year ;-)). Ta. 4u1e 21:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The precedent I'd set would be that being the first driver with Afro-Carribean roots doesn't constitute a record, but being the first driver to achieve seven consecutive podiums in his first seven grand prix, or first rookie to win consecutive races from pole, most certainly do.BeL1EveR 21:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that it's for me to judge, but I don't disagree with either of those, they're straightforward enough. Cheers. 4u1e 22:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There were no objections so... done. What does everyone think? BeL1EveR 19:50, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dividing the F1 section?