Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

message: When is it useful or encyclopedic to say something like "he died seven and a half weeks before his 93rd birthday" instead of "he died at age 92"? I might be convinced to allow something like "she died one day before her 100th birthday", but where do we draw the line? Chris the speller yack 18:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Chris the speller, I see no point in including that sort of content. The age at death should be sufficient. Eddie Blick (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

text: At a minimum, I would expect a reliable source to mention it, establishing some significance.—Bagumba (talk) 19:32, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to you both for the response. There are hundreds of these, including some like this: "exactly two weeks before his 95th birthday". What precision! But what good does it do for any reader? I will nibble away at this pile of excessive drivel. Chris the speller yack 20:41, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Chris the speller, a related point is that in many cases where such expressions appear the date of birth is unsourced. Therefore any expression of a span before or after a birthday would be unsourced, also (unless the span is stated in the obituary or has some other reliable source). Eddie Blick (talk) 00:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

text: While I agree that a line should be drawn, if the detail is reliably sourced, I don't see how it benefits the reader to provide a less precise range rather than a more precise one. The fact that such references commonly occur in reporting suggests that it is a detail likely to be of interest to readers, and I would generally be opposed to any sweeping campaign of removing these details, absent a lack of sourcing. BD2412 T 23:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If the specific date of death is provided, can't the reader determine for themself how much of a "partial year" of age they had at the time of their death? I don't really see any need to include something extraneous like that, especially when it's already there for anyone who actually is interested. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

text: I find such details to be excessive, with the damage being distraction and undue weight.  Birthday anniversaries just aren't (usually) that important.  It is appropriate in some nonencyclopedic writing that is trying to add some color to the story, but Wikipedia should stick to plain facts.  I think some editors would even reject this as analysis of the sources (assuming the sources just give the birth and death dates).  Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 03:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Since 99.7% of our dear departed did not die on their birthday, for uniformity we should either specify the proximity to their birthday or omit it. If everybody gets the birthday mention, who's going to pitch in and add it to the hundreds of thousands of articles that don't yet have it? Easier to remove it from the relatively few articles where the subject's niece or nephew added this unencyclopedic trivia. Chris the speller yack 04:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am sure that newspapers have some rule for this. It is very common for news reports to indicate this proximity where it is close (within a few weeks). Taken to the opposite extreme, why do we say of someone, "he died at age 92" rather than "he died in his 90s"? BD2412 T 04:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In my first post at the top of this discussion, I asked "where do we draw the line?" To me, "until his death three months before his 56th birthday" is only slightly less preposterous than "until his death ten months before his 56th birthday". Chris the speller yack 05:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  YMMV. Depending on where and when, some are satisfied if it's verifiable (or even via WP:CALC), others may get into whether it's WP:DUE.  Ultimately, there's the WP:ONUS policy: —Bagumba (talk) 05:34, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Saying that someone died weeks before their birthday is more informative to the reader than merely stating their age. Within two weeks is probably a reasonable cutoff, unless we are talking about some milestone (100th birthday, for example), perhaps for which celebratory plans were already in the works (see, e.g., Betty White#Betty White: A Celebration (2022)). BD2412 T 20:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think if a reliable source deems it important enough to mention, so should we. GiantSnowman 21:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

text: I agree with BD, we certainly do not need any campaign to remove all such mentions. We are writing for the facts, yes, but that does not mean we should strive to make this place completely devoid of colour (anyone else still running Vector 2022?) We are not robots, but if anyone wants a rule, then yes, it seems silly to mention a birthday if it was more than a month out, and removing that seems fine to me. Beyond that, personally I wouldn’t  such detail without it being closer than a week on either side, but to remove it is more of a waste of time than many,  other things you could be doing instead. — HTGS (talk) 22:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unimportant age details at time of death 

message: Disabilities are almost never mentioned in first sentences, just nationality and occupation. See :Category:Deaf actors for examples. However this article (Kaylee Hottle) seems to be breaking established status quo. 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: *The first sentence should highlight attributes that the subject is most notable for.  Which attributes should be mentioned is very subject specific. Sometimes an attribute is crucial to a person’s notability (ie the person is notable because of that attribute), while the same attribute may be trivial to the notability of another person. Blueboar (talk) 13:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Does WP:SELFID come into play at all? How does the subject of the article consider themselves? An actress who is deaf, or a deaf actress? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not for the opening sentence. That should be based on independent sources. Blueboar (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

text: When it is central to the subject's notability, it should be mentioned. When not, not. An example where it is central and mentioned is Chieko Asakawa. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I gotta be honest, in both of the articles mentioned above I would make sure the disability is in the lead, and maybe the second sentence, but I wouldn’t put it in the first sentence as they are. Most people should be regarded for their work first, then their disability. The fact that they are deaf or blind is not the primary reason these people are notable, but it has clearly had a strong impact. — HTGS (talk) 06:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If nationality is there, then I don't see why disability can't be (as long as it's important to their notability). Zanahary (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: We can’t load everything into the first sentence.  Which attributes/aspects to put in the first sentence depends on the specific person. There is no single way to do it.  Even nationality (which is usually presented in the first sentence) can be presented in a later sentence if there are other aspects of the person that are deemed more relevant to notability. Blueboar (talk) 00:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the first sentence should include the primary things which made the person notable. For Helen Keller, that probably would include her disabilities; that was a crucial part of her notability. For Ray Charles, not so much—he was primarily notable for being a musician, not for being blind. So, there's no "one size fits all" solution there, it has to be done case by case. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This whole quandary of trying to put all the notable things a person is known for in the lede sentence, against the need to write neutrally and dispassionately about a topic is a long standing problem. The lede sentence dies not need to full encapsulate the person, that is the purpose of the entire lede. More notable factors should be mentioned earlier but that doesn't necessarily mean the first sentence if that creates awkward tone per NPOV. This sometimes means that was a person is most notable for may not be mentioned in the first sentence but in a sentence or two later as to give context to why that notability exists or came about. — Masem (t) 20:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus on adding disabilities (blind/deaf) in biographical article first sentence? 

message: Either there isn't any guidance or I haven't been able to find it, but I've not been able to find any guidance on how aristocratic names are treated in infoboxes or other box lists. I have included Lord Rosebery's infobox as an illustration of the issue. According to MOS:SURNAME the first use of an aristocrat's name should be in full, or using the title that they held at the time they held office. Additionally Wikipedia:NOPIPE suggests that piping the link from 'Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery' to the Earl of Rosebery isn't the right approach. I also don't think simply listing the title without the holder's name is particularly effective, given that a father and son might hold the same office and this might be easily missed by readers. Ecrm87 (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There's been sporadic, recurrent dispute about this. The upshot is that editors largely concentrated in the wikiprojects WP:PEERAGE and WP:ROYALTY have decided on their own, in what amounts to a WP:FAITACCOMPLI action, to repurpose various fields of  and derivatives of it, to shoehorn aristocratic titles into the  (or sometimes other inappropriate) parameters, and have just gone and done this to tens of thousands of articles, despite this not being consistent with the templates' own documentation of the meaning of these parameters, or with MOS:BIO regarding such titles (covered in various subsections of MOS:PEOPLETITLES. In short, we have a disputed mess in which the infobox of, say, Margaret Thatcher claims that her  is "The Baroness Thatcher", which is obviously badly incorrect. That title belongs in one of the other parameters, . To make matters worse, the  parameter (intended for things like "Duke" and "Dame") has been widely misused to insert a form of  that would be used only when writing a letter to such a person or perhaps when introducing them at a formal engagement, but which is not how they are normally referred to in writing by anyone ever. (The most common of these misuses is "The Rt. Hon." or "The Right Honourable".) And even the baroness part should not have "The" on it (that's used when describing the title in a stand-alone manner, not when used directly with the person's name). For the Thatcher case, the obviously solution is: , and this is what agrees with the lead of the article. Another potential solution is one or more additional parameters, e.g. for gentry/peerage titles, and possibly for formal address, though the latter is arguably not encyclopedic information (much less infobox-level core information), and is better covered at the article on the general class of title (i.e., it is "how to address peers of particular ranks" and "how to address knights/dames" and "how to address Scottish lairs and clan chiefs", and "how to address judges", and "how to address members of parliament", and etc., etc., etc. information, and not particular to someone's bio. A simpler solution is to just remove the address string, and put the aristrocratic titles in the extant  parameter; there's something to be said for such simplicity versus making a complex template even more complex without there being a clear reader-facing benefit.Anyway, there have been several abortive discussions about this at various places, but nothing has resulted in action, and this might have to be resolved with an RfC, perhaps at WP:VPPOL since it has implications for a large number of articles. I've had other projects going on which absorb most of my time, and this is why I've not bothered RfCing this already. It definitely does need to get resolved one way or another.PS, on the matter of link-piping with regard to such a person in other articles: It would depend on the context. If it's clear in the sentence that "the Earl of Rosebery" is in reference to a specific person known by that title at the time, then the piped link is not necessarily problematic, but only if the actual name of this person has been given previously in the same article. Far too often I run across piped links of this sort in a  manner, seemingly put there by British editors who are personally familiar with who the subject of the link is, without considering that even many other British readers would not be and that virtually no one outside the UK will be. So, at least at first occurrence, using Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery, will be more appropriate. It might simply be Earl of Rosebery, in a later occurrence, since depending on the context we might take advantage of the new standard (since about a year ago) of linking once per major section yet also consider who the person is/was already adequately explained in a previous section. There's a bit of a tension between those two ideas. In various cases, such a title should just be left off, when it's not contextually pertinent and/or doesn't match typical RS usage; e.g. Christopher Guest is not normally referred to as [5th] Baron Haden-Guest except in reference to his brief stint as a parliamentarian, or in other peerage-pertinent contexts, but not as a actor-director-writer (where even the "Haden-" is almost universally dropped, at his own preference). On the other hand, any time the title is being referred to as the title itself, or in the plural, it should link to the article/section on the title not the present title-holder.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s even worse than User:SMcCandlish’s explanation of this issue. See for example the infobox for Selwyn Lloyd, where the reader is informed that Lloyd’s successor as foreign secretary was one “The Earl of Home”; his time as leader of the house was under the PM Alec Douglas-Home. The casual reader is left unaware that these are one and the same person, whose status had changed between positions. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see this as a problem. Home was known by different names at different points in his life. The infobox should reflect that. Atchom (talk) 00:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That’s unhelpful to readers and serves no useful purpose. Cambial — foliar❧ 05:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just an assertion without evidence. If you are reading about 20th century British political history, you should expect a degree of specialised vocabulary. And titles are very much part of that. Atchom (talk) 13:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: ”Our readers ought to be better informed” -type arguments are not serious. This is an encyclopaedia. The purpose of the infobox is to reflect key facts for the page. That Lloyd’s successor as foreign secretary and the prime minister while he was leader of the house are the same person is relevant to facts about Lloyd. By no stretch of the imagination is Alec Douglas-Home changing his name a key fact for the article about Selwyn Lloyd. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:48, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, the name of the predecessor or successor is pretty important to get right, as a matter of basic respect as much as anything else. How would you like it if someone else butchered your name? Atchom (talk) 17:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The purpose of the website is to best inform the reader. It’s not to honour people with styles of address. To answer your question; if I’d been dead for 30 years I doubt I’d give much, if any, thought to my name being "", tortured a description as that is of using someone’s common and given name. Cambial — foliar❧ 18:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "Earl of Home" is common name. You're like the Jacobins over at French Wikipedia who insisted everyone had to be known by their "normal names" which led to stupid article names like "William Temple" for Lord Palmerston. Atchom (talk) 19:22, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You needn’t worry about boxing shadows fighting revolutionaries dead for two centuries. But their malign influence, and community consensus, has evidently determined that Alec Douglas-Home is the common name, hence the article title there. Cambial — foliar❧ 20:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Technically, Douglas-Home was still a peer when he succeeded to the premiership, but given that he disclaimed his peerage as quickly as possible in order to continue in office, I think it makes more sense to use his name as a commoner than to be technically correct (the best kind of correct). Choess (talk) 01:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Oh, I see I misunderstood the locus of the dispute. He was Earl of Home when he succeeded to the foreign ministry, and would have been referred to as such in the contemporary press. The peerage isn't an irrelevancy here—his article devotes a few sentences to Labour's objections to a peer in that position. This is to some extent a question of taste, but I don't think the benefit of consistency in imposing a single "common" name throughout the article outweighs the benefit of using the names a reader would find in an outside source, contemporary or otherwise. Ultimately infoboxes simply don't have the bandwidth for this kind of subtlety; the reader confused by the nuances of Douglas-Home's career will have to read the lead of his article rather than skimming the infobox of his predecessor. Choess (talk) 01:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

text: You're right, this needs to be clarified but doing so would have a big impact. I don't have the knowledge or time to open an RfC myself. Is there anyone who is willing to do so? Ecrm87 (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I don't know the answer. But concerning Selwyn Lloyd & all other Speakers of the GB/UK House of Commons? I'm curious as to why the prime minister is included in their infoboxes. The speaker doesn't serve under the prime minister. Same thing with the leader of the Opposition, who also doesn't serve under the prime minister. But, I guess that's another topic. GoodDay (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I would remove PM as well for these things. Atchom (talk) 17:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia:NOPIPE has four bullet points, none of which is relevant to the example given. Rosebery's full name appears at the upper left of his article; English is conventionally read from left to right, making that the "first use" specified by MOS:SURNAME. Father-to-son succession as hypothesized is so rare that I don't think it's worth altering general practice. I don't really think the infobox should be cluttered by a complete series of offices—those have been sensibly placed in templates at the bottom of the article since Wikipedia began, essentially—but it's rather late to expect people to use good judgment and discretion about infoboxes. Choess (talk) 01:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Officeholder aristocratic titles 

message: When we can write "[Name] was an [actually historically correct demonym] [occupation/role], from [historical place], now in [modern place]", or even "[Name] was an [occupation/role] of [historical place], now in [modern place]" without a demonym at all – or using any equivalent wording like "today in [modern place]" or "in modern-day [modern place]" – then we not only have no good reason to write a grossly misleading "[Name] was a [history-distorting and reader-confusing anachronistic demonym] [occupation/roles], from [historical place]", there are also many good reasons to not do it.  I think that this needs to be covered more explicitly in this guideline, probably using concrete examples along the lines of the generics I just wrote.
Multiple discussions, with unclear resolutions, have archived away here and at other pages. This classic example of the anachronism dispute is describing Christopher Columbus as "Italian" and even his voyages as an "Italian" endeavor, a viewpoint pushed especially by Italian-American interests as a matter of ethno-nationalistic pride. The problem is that Italy as anything like a nation-state did not exist in his period, and the Italian penninsula and mainland consisted of a number of independent states (typically with their own Italic languages, many of which still exist as minority languages; the one we today call Italian is actually Florentine). Columbus was Genoan, not "Italian", and his voyages were a Spanish project (and Spain actually was at least  unified into a single nation by that point, unlike Italy).  But there are many such disputes ("Chinese" is another fairly frequent one, and can be problematic for multiple reasons, including completely different ethno-linguistic groups in the region, and often multiple competing kingdoms/empires and other polities within the bounds of what today is mainland China).
Usage of modern-day national labeling of historical figures and group is (at least in the cases about which I've seen recurrent dispute) rarely based on much actual evidence rather than opinionated assertions and personal (often diasporic) preferences. Even much of the evidence presented tends to be OR distortion. E.g., it is easy to find RS using  the term "Italian" in reference to someone like Columbus or Dante, but only as a shorthand  the author has explained where they were really from, Genoa and Florence respectively, and that these were independent states; or using the term with a particular cultural-geographic regional sense particular to the material in question and already laid out in detail in that work. Either of those is very distinct from the modern nation-state sense that WP would imply to almost all readers by saying "Columbus was Italian". But proponents of this wrongheaded anachronistic labeling in WP articles ignore the sources' highly contextual usage (when it can be found at all) and claim they can simply apply "Italian" to any such figure "because RS do it", despite our lead sections having no such clarifing prior contextual material or special in-context definition that has been explained. Plus, various sources about such figures are not actually reliable historical, ethnographical, or other works, but are lionzing biographies written too often by Italian (or Chinese, or whatever) Americans with a promotional slant (often, in the Columbus case, also promotional of Catholicism and of socio-political conservatism, and revisionism in support of that conservatism, especially against criticism of Columbus, the Catholic Church, and Imperial Spain as colonialist and violently exploitative).
Here's a point of evidence about historical English usage with regard to "Italians" in particular that is worth consideration:
* . Full-text access to this is available (unusually, for JSTOR) since it's an open-access work.
In summary, the immigrant merchant and labourer populations in England from the late medieval to early modern periods were recorded distinctly as Venetian, Florentine, Genoan, Lucchese [Tuscan], Lombard, Milanese, etc. While "Italian" was sometimes used in this period (perhaps when it was known that the person was from somewhere in that region without more specifics being available), it clearly was not the default way to refer to such people in English, even historically. Rather, it has only become one in the modern era (and especially among Americans) after the Italian unification in 1871. It's interesting that "German" (sometimes "Teutonic") was more used in these English records (with more specific terms being rare, though "Saxon" appeared a few times), surely owing to the fact that the Holy Roman Empire was already using this term (and  and cognates in the German langauges) by this era. Similarly to the German case, "French" was usually used instead of more specific terms like "Picard" or "Gascon", owing to it being a largely unified nation by then. But the Netherlands were not, and terms like "Fleming", "Zeelander", "Hollander", and "Gelderlander" appeared frequently along with a more generic "Dutch" (MidEng "Doche"); the Netherlands didn't exist as a unified country until the Batavian republic in 1975; while the United Provinces of the Netherlands dates back to 1579, and is sometimes mislabled "the Dutch Republic", it was actually a conferation of independent states, though it at least provided a then-extant rationale to begin lumping them all together as "Dutch".
There's a lot of other material like this available about demonyms and their historical usage in English, though much of it is paywalled and needs a The Wikipedia Library account or other institutional access means to get at the full text.
Anyway, the upshot of this is that we have no reason to use misleading anachronistic labels like calling Columbus "Italian" when we can say accurately that he was Genoan, from a city in present-day Liguria, Italy. As I pointed out before, we would not refer to King Bridei V of the Picts (r. 761–763) as a "Scottish" ruler, but as Pictish and based in Fortriu, in present-day central to north Scotland. (The unification of what today is Scotland, merging Pictland with Gaelic Alba, didn't happen until 843; and inclusive of Strathclyde/Alt Clut, not until around the beginning of the 12th century).  WP is  pretty good about this sort of thing, but there is a bad habit among certain clusters of editors of engaging in particular forms of anachronistic ethno-national labeling. "Italian" and "Chinese" are the most common I've run into, though I've also seen it done with "Spanish" before the unification of Spain, and with "Russian" as inclusive of places that were not at the time part of the CIS, or the USSR, or Imperial Russia. There are probably many other cases I've missed, in subject areas I don't wander into as often.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisiting the issue of anachronistic demonyms being applied to historical figures 

message: biography Binfajnr1 (talk) 11:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you want done? Can you be more specific & include some citations if you think Bulus is notable? Peaceray (talk) 13:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hon Prince Vincent Venman Bulus 

message: I see the following:
"Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise."
I do not understand the reason that it holds for any phase of the person's live unless they indicated a preference otherwise.
I want wikipedia to be a source of reliable information.
I find it ridiculous when you write about some non binary in wikipedia
"Nemo began their interest in music at the age of three"
I think the reader who want to know the facts want to know that everybody considered Nemo as a male at that time and from the value in wikipedia people cannot know the facts when they read wikipedia because of the rules that this holds for any phase of the person's life. אורי בלאס (talk) 05:37, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender identity rules 

message: :::I created a draft Draft:MOS CONTEXTBIO with:
:::* an introductory statement about whether content should appear in the article, since WP:ETHNICITY redirects to this section. - removed per 
:::* integrated examples with the guidelines, using the format from MOS:BIRTHDATE for consistency and with focus on the example. 
:::* updated verbiage a bit about the examples, like to provide a second sentence example where a person's birth country is notable or defining importance. 
:::* simplified the Native American information, per the comment and discussion about citizenship and because the information is incorrect or simplified for Canada, for instance, it does not consider the Indian Act which does not require citizenship. Of course, this information can be expanded as needed.
:::* removed the link to the WP:NDNID / WP:NATIVE-IDENTITY essay, which was said at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Patricia_Marroquin_Norby that the discussion of self-identity and the document as a whole needs to be reviewed.
:::I look forward to your responses. There is a place to provide comments in the draft.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I just made a change to the draft to group Nationalities, residency... and Other into two sections. There are no new guidlines, the major change is linking the examples with the guidelines, as is done in other MOS guidelines. I ran a compare pages here. You need to go down to "Context" and then it helps to remember that the examples are integrated and nationalities information is grouped into one section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I took out the two section headings. It seems to have disturbed the flow, as discussed in "Additional restrictions".–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a new topic, would you please add a new subsection at the bottom of this section? It makes it so much easier to track the conversation. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Draft

message: ::::  
::::Well… we’re not off to a good start.
::::Just to make we’re on the same page, this section is about making sure that the context for an article’s lead stays on-topic, with regard to what makes the subject notable. It is not a set of rules for talking about ethnicity. The shortcut MOS:ETHNICITY (etc) leads here because it is a common shortcut to use to inform people about the guideline. I use it a lot myself in edit summaries because it’s a common error that needs correcting; this does not mean that the Context section is about ethnicity in biographies. — HTGS (talk) 07:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I removed it from the draft.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:40, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Use in the article

message: In reviewing , I wonder:
* Should regional identity go in the intro?
* If so, it seems that this statement could apply to regional identity in any country. For instance, "Use the regional identity that reliable sources use most often and with which the subject identifies."–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:35, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I made an edit here to try a universal statement on for size. The complete sentence is  How is that?–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Regional identity

message: I changed "Native American and Indigenous Canadians" to "Indigenous people" to be universal here for the parenthetical / phrase part. (I am sure more will come about Native Americans and Indigenous Canadians).–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Does that make sense? It seems to, for consistency, but it may be adding a guideline that doesn't make sense for other countries.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Indigenous people

message: Could we add guidance to MOS:JOBTITLE that recommends consistent capitalization for comparable job titles in close proximity? I'd say a sentence like  would be stronger with a capitalized "Prime Minister". The temptation I see in other editors is to rewrite to enable capitalization while complying with current guidance, going with something like "Prime Minster Collins of the UK", which is an undesirable outcome. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. We should capitalize things based on what they are, not based on what they're next to. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

text: I agree with David. —Eyer (he/him) If you reply, add  to your message. 18:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  JOBTITLES near other titles