Talk:Christmas Oratorio

message: So does it consist of 6 cantatas or various chorales, ...., and cantatas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.159.182.51 (talk) 21:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Six cantatas, each containing several chorales (and choruses). Michael Bednarek 12:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: I am very dubious about several assertions in this article.
*written in 1734? Rather: written for the Christmas season of 1734/35.
*text by Picander/Henrici? That's true for two other passions of Bach's, but not this one.
*Everything in the section Music is either wrong or superfluous.
*Wrong:
**The music of the Weihnachtsoratorium (Christmas Oratorio) consists of various chorales, arias and cantatas.
**... and recitativos and choir pieces and one sinfonia.
**Every sung text is accompanied by the chorus, contrary to the St. Matthew Passion.
**Most recitativos and solo arias are not accompanied by the chorus.
**There are also no big chorales in the Weihnachtsoratorium.
**What's a big chorale? A chorale is a strophic hymn and is never very long. All chorales in this work are set in counterpoint, fully instrumented, sometimes elaborately so.
*Superfluous:
**Bach used many previous works in the Weihnachtsoratorium. He used at least 19 previously written pieces, for example BWV 213, 214 and 215.
**This has already been mentioned at the beginning of the article.
*It's not First piece but Part 1 or On the First Day of Christmas. If it only cites the German text of the first recitativo (with errors), this section might as well be omitted - less is more. If more is wanted, look at :de:Weihnachtsoratorium (Bach).
Michael Bednarek 12:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article needs a lot of work

message: What the heck does this mean?
:In any case, a key and time signatures for a recitative are merely musical notation.
As opposed to...? —Wahoofive (talk) 08:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've rewritten a little (the given keys need a more thorough checking) but am finding this more and more interesting.  Recitativo secco is customarily written without key signature, as in Mozart & Rossini operas or Haydn's Creation. Bach's practice here and elsewhere is to use the key signatures of adjacent music, and Handel does this too, for example in Messiah but also in the early Aci, Galatea e Polifemo as well as Acis and Galathea, at least if Chrysander's editions can be trusted.  Sparafucil (talk) 09:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music notation? 

message: thumb|Libretto title
To my knowledge,there's no original title "Weihnachtsoratorium",- any source for that? The first page of the libretto has this, Oratorium / Welches / Die heilige Weihnacht / über / In beyden / Haupt-Kirchen zu Leipzig / musiciert wurde. / Anno 1734" (Oratorio which has been performed over the holy Christmas tide in both main churches at Leipzig). That can be summarised to "Weihnachts-Oratorium", but we should not suggest that it was Bach's title.
A melody used three times is Vom Himmel hoch, - please see the talk of that article for arguments against a lead image with a too Italian feel (which I don't share any more - I remember I did when Botticelli was introduced here - however, it came up). The libretto title should perhaps go somewhere in this article, perhaps even as lead. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: The Botticelli was removed a while ago, and after waiting a bit, I inserted Bach's first page instead. I believe it has more to do with the composition, but Boticelli is there again. Thoughts? (signed later) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it appropriate that an article about the Christmas Oratorio should show a picture of the nativity. There's an obvious spot for the autograph in the "Music" or the "Instrumentation" section. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:37, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not sure, because Christmas is in the title, so no surprise it's about the nativity. I'd like to hear what others think. As it is, it looks like an article about a painting - to me. If a nativity scene, perhaps not an Italian one but one that Bach may have seen? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like the nativity image whereas BWV248 Autogrpah looks great to illustrate this page; our readers can see it is about Christmas from the title and the Christmas season link. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 13:33, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead image 

message: Bach may have called this an oratorio for lack of a better title. However, as a collection of six cantatas, intended for performance as part of the church service for six days in the Christmas season (from Christmas Day to Epiphany) this is not an oratorio by the strict definition. An oratorio was not performed in church, except for the earliest oratorios c.1600 in Italy, which were performed in the oratory (prayer hall--It. "oratorio") of a church, but not the main sanctuary. By the 17th-century, it was performed in a concert hall (which did not exist until the 1670s or so), hence in a secular location. So let's call this work "The Christmas Cantatas of Bach" as a better title. Other than that, this is an excellent article. Professor Emeritus of Musicology (talk) 10:26, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't name works, but use the so-called "common names" which are often wrong. Some terms changed meaning over time, - Bach didn't name (most of) his cantatas "Cantata" but "Concerto", and what was an "Oratorio" for him, isn't in a more modern meaning. Concert programs will say Christmas Oratorio, and will be recognised. The Christmas cantatas would included many more than these six, see Christmas cantata. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is an oratorio?