Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Archive 12

message: Games have been released for different platforms on odd media before. Final Fantasy XI for the PlayStation 2 came as a hard drive attachment. Sonic & Knuckles came out on one of those weird Genesis cartridges with another cartridge reader on top. It's 99.9% likely that the game will come out on a Wii Optical Disc, but it's not confirmed by anyone. We do not put "likely" information in articles about unreleased products, even "extremely likely" information. It may even come out on two discs, in which case the "media" indicator is also false. Not every single fact in Wikipedia must have its own source, but saying this game will come out on a Wii Optical Disc is completely unverifiable. - Chardish 21:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you heard of Wikipedia:Use common sense and Wikipedia:Ignore all rules? They apply here. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 22:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Shouldn't the part about Ignore all rules be an oxymoron anyway? Taken at face value, you shouldn't follow the "Don't follow the rules" rule anyway :D And besides Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is satirical anyway, but Wikipedia:Common Sense shouldn't be a defense against verification and reliablility. Quatreryukami 02:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where in the Don't Follow the Rules article does it say that it shouldn't be taken seriously?  And it's not a rule, it's a guideline.  I don't see where the big deal is.  If it's coming out for the Wii, then logically it will be on Wii Optic Disk.  If we head differently (yeah right) then we can change it. Joiz A. Shmo 02:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Heh, I picked up on that shortly before reading your post, and wrote a quick essay. Anyway, I think that "common sense" applies for most cases, but since Wikipedia must contain no speculation, I think that even "common sense" speculation requires verifiability. Drawing "logical" conclusions is original research via synthesis, which is also forbidden and non-negotiable. Also, read what I said about the game coming out on two discs - that is a very real possibility. Furthermore, if we're going to allow speculation of any kind as long as it's almost certain to be true, why not start reporting sales figures? I'd bet my life savings the game will sell at least 10,000 copies. - Chardish 02:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Now then, He has a point there in his last sentence. And I also restate the Genesis arguement at the top of the section and add my own little 2 cents: what if some new technology (Blu-Ray Wii?) comes out and they use that instead? Won't we feel pretty stupid? Lets just say undetermined for now, but in updates we'll find out more! *Drool...weekday updates....:p*Quatreryukami 02:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree!(I summmon Miyamoto!) rofl. Really, I don't care either way. Can we just make a consensus? Quatreryukami 02:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless anyone has a strong reason why we should treat very likely possibilities as being equivalent to fact, and why doing so is necessary to improve the quality of the article, I think the speculation should be removed. - Chardish 03:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh hey! I got it! Let's remove the character section because we don't know if they're going to be in the final game. After all, they can decide at any time to remove them releaseing the final game, right? Mario is a speculation character too because we don't know if Nintendo will change their minds. </sarcasm> magiciandude (Talk) (review) 07:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What kind of moron woul think that Super Smash Bros is coming out on something other then a Wii Disc? The previous Smash Bros games didn't break the mould in terms of the medium they came out on (Cartridge for N64 and GC Discs for Melee) so why should it be any different for Wii?
Yeah, ok, there's some crap about no original research. Here's a thought though. If they were going to release it on something OTHER then a Wii Disc, would it not have been revealed by now? You don't look stupid if they suddenly announce it's going to be a cartridge or something, you simply take it into your stride and say; "originally thought to be on a Wii Optical Disc like most other Wii games, is now on a <insert medium here>. The Wii takes Gamecube discs and Wii Discs as it's primary source of media. That's not going to change with what is without a doubt one of the most succesful franchises in gaming history getting a release for a new console.
GOsh, i hope they take the god-awful Camera and Fixed Camera modes out. Those modes were really stupid. 195.195.15.250 07:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Can you find a reliable source that says "all Wii games are on Wii discs?" I couldn't. The bottom line is, no one can prove that this game will come out on a Wii optical disc. - Chardish 12:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's so obvious that nobody has bothered to say it. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 13:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. I picked Thursday, 2007-05-24 11:59 pm as the close date. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm guessing no one read WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. This shouldn't be "binding". Oubliette 04:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about when articles are put up for deletion? I don't know about you, but they appear to be voting when they say keep or delete. Comrade Pajitnov 04:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: articles put up for deletion arent voted on, people give their opinion and then state their reasons for wanting an article kept or deleted. Then someone comes and judges the merit of each sides argument.DurinsBane87 06:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wii Optical Disc, cont'd 

message: Until we have "confirmation" that the sky is blue, let's have a straw poll to see if common sense prevails. Let's consider the result a "binding consensus" so that we don't have to deal with this again. We'll consider it officially closed Thursday at midnight.
; Support "Wii Optical Disk"
# —Disavian (talk/contribs) 13:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw poll

message: Not to close the polls early, and you all can feel free to vote if you have not, but I think the consensus is clear now. Therefore, it's back on the page. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 18:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. I picked Thursday, 2007-05-24 11:59 pm as the close date. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm guessing no one read WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. This shouldn't be "binding". Oubliette 04:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about when articles are put up for deletion? I don't know about you, but they appear to be voting when they say keep or delete. Comrade Pajitnov 04:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: articles put up for deletion arent voted on, people give their opinion and then state their reasons for wanting an article kept or deleted. Then someone comes and judges the merit of each sides argument.DurinsBane87 06:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw Poll Results

message: This debate is not bettering Wikipedia. I'm tired of people vandalizing my userpage   
 as a result of this argument; I think it speaks something about the computer and video game community as a whole. I'm also shocked at the means people have gone to to further their point of view, such as removing my comments  from the talk page. I'm tired of people acting like a "straw poll" is a substitute for discussion and acting like it'll finally stop me from making all those edits I'm not making anymore. I think this debate has been largely fueled by people who do not understand Wikipedia's content policies - one of which is that verifiability supercedes truth. WP:V spells it out as clean as day. I, for one, am ashamed to have been a part of this for so long. - Chardish 03:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not a substitution for discussion.  But you're clearly running against the consensus, and no third party has even supported what you say.  There is a clear consensus to put it on the page; this is a silly and nonsensical argument being held here; I said it once, I'll say it again: this is quite LAME.  --myselfalso 15:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That is no excuse for not answering my questions. I could've revertered your page by those vandals if I didn't feel asleep. Sorry Chardish, but when the whole community in Wikipedia disagrees with you, that's that. I hope you learned your lesson before trying to start another lame arguement. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 15:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Guys, guys. Let's not overkill here. What's done is done. You Can't See Me! 17:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you really are going to piss and moan until you "win" aren't you. Well, I suppose that means you should also head over to the main Wii article and do some editing there. but this is getting ridiculous.DurinsBane87 11:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I wasn't aware that it is considered a personal attack. Well I was being sarcastic, but I'll keep that in mind nonetheless. Thanks. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 17:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I wasn't directing it at anyone specifically, since I've spotted a few of them throughout this whole discussion and I didn't feel like pointing fingers.  Sorry for making it appear as I was reffering to you.  My text had to go after someone else's, unfortunately. -TwilightPhoenix 01:11, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm done here

message: Erm, WP:LAME anyone? Seriously, this shouldn't even be an issue. By default, media for any one single system remains consistent. I'd say that it's more speculative to say that it "might not" be on a Wii Optical Disc than it is to say that it will be on one. You Can't See Me! 06:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments from third parties

message: Should there be a list of the composers that are contributing to Brawl, here or in a separate article? 165.20.104.30 16:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither, instead, we should have a category for it called Category:Super Smash Bros. musicians, but even then I still don't think it'll be worth it. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 16:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any game has musicians, and I doubt those game articles have such lists. Because there's 36 musicians listed there, we're better off linking to that. Erik Jensen (Appreciate|Laugh At) 17:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just thought there should be something, as normally a game has only a couple of composers working on it. 36 composers contributing to one game is unprecedented. 165.20.104.30 22:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No, because it's speculation. — MalcolmUse the schwartz! 22:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The point of WP:IAR above was that overuse of WP:V would hinder us from improving the encyclopedia there. We all know it's going to be on a Wii Optical Disk, but they haven't said so officially. Speculation about characters, on the other hand, is probably best left out-- we're not as sure about which characters as we are about the disk format. however, I could understand a table of music artists, the games they're most known for, and one or two characters that may imply. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 23:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think so, the list is too long, and the information really isn't all that important, at least not yet. we don't have a list of every programmer for the game either. DurinsBane87 08:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: One of the composers of music in some of the Capcom games is working on the music in Brawl. That's all we know at this time. Lots of musicians from lots of gaming companies are helping with the music.  Any connections between this and the inclusions of third-party characters would be purely speculation at this time. Joiz A. Shmo 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The list of musicians 

message: I think it is kind of odd that they have Sega musicians on the list such as Tomoko Sasaki who is well known for the Sonic franchise. Should we add this to the bit about Sonic? OBEY STARMAN 22:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because it's speculation. — MalcolmUse the schwartz! 22:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The point of WP:IAR above was that overuse of WP:V would hinder us from improving the encyclopedia there. We all know it's going to be on a Wii Optical Disk, but they haven't said so officially. Speculation about characters, on the other hand, is probably best left out-- we're not as sure about which characters as we are about the disk format. however, I could understand a table of music artists, the games they're most known for, and one or two characters that may imply. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 23:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think so, the list is too long, and the information really isn't all that important, at least not yet. we don't have a list of every programmer for the game either. DurinsBane87 08:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sega

message: Some body on this page mention that Capcom is working with brawl does that give us any indication on third-party characters? And if it is from Capcom who are likely candidates? Sorry if this sounds like a fourm, I was not sure how to word this. Anubiz 15:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the composers of music in some of the Capcom games is working on the music in Brawl. That's all we know at this time. Lots of musicians from lots of gaming companies are helping with the music.  Any connections between this and the inclusions of third-party characters would be purely speculation at this time. Joiz A. Shmo 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capcom  

message: I'd make the change myself, but I know it will be inevitably controversial, what with everyone so tense about their favorite Melee character's odds of making it in.  The actual translation of Sakurai's comment says explicitly that some characters will definately be removed.  There is no "may" about it.  Sorry.   75.153.231.20 05:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: share proof or it'll be tossed into the "Speculation and Rumors" box. FyreNWater 07:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I definitely remember whatsisname (I can never remember Japanese names) saying that certain Melee characters may not return. I always assumed he meant Dr. Mario, Roy (NOT ROY! GET RID OF MARTH!) and Young Link. COnsidering these guys are basically clones. Almost down to their appearances. Until he's said which ones though, it's not right to say that until it's been made official. It may turn out that all the characters remain. 195.195.15.250 07:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I thought he said this last May on Dojo? OBEY STARMAN 11:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, but the original cast is in (damn you Jigglypuff!!!) Dark Ermac 11:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Where'd you hear that?  Frankly, I think clones were put into Melee because they were so easy and quick to program.  It makes sense that clones of existing characters may appear again, and it makes sense that some of the SAME clones may NOT appear because they've been done, but the theory that a character won't appear because their only reason for existing is "cuteness" sounds like something you just kinda came up with. --Bishop2 14:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not a Pichu fan.  Nobody's a Pichu fan.  But we can't assume why characters make it into the game or don't, and therefore we can't assume who will or won't be in this game.  Which obivously means we can't go onto the article and edit it to say "Well, Pichu is probably unlikely to show up."  I mean, we can't back that up.  On the other hand, if you can back up Pichu being included only because he's cute with an interview quote or something, it might be an interested thing to add to the Melee article, or at least consider adding. --Bishop2 15:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Characters from melee "may" not return

message: The site is there again, although not much new info yet. You guys with actual Wikipedia accounts might want to remove the bit about it being offline though.
It might be awhile befoure we get somthig new. Anubiz 12:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I had to speculate, I'd say give it another one to two weeks. The week offline was probably spent rebuilding the site from scratch, so this second week will be spent rewriting the original info from before. There are new screenshots, so it isn't completely bad. - Zero1328 Talk? 13:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does contain the first stage, though. Battlefield can now be added to the article. The site is also being updated every day with new info, so that's a plus. --Ultima 17:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Site is up and running

message: Most of the sources that link to Brawl's website are currently gone due to the update. Should we remove these sources or find an archive verison? OBEY STARMAN 17:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Until they're reposted, we could use archive.org and cite them that way... —Disavian (talk/contribs) 17:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resource Update 

message: *:Category:Super Smash Bros. fighters has been listed for deletion here.  
* has been listed for deletion here.  
--myselfalso 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A user nominated the template for deletion.  I nominated the category for deletion because a growing consensus suggested deleting the category instead of the template.  --myselfalso 18:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I'd suggest making your opinions known on both pages.  --myselfalso 18:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories listed for deletion 

message: It says on the Smashbros page on gamespot the game is by nindendo and sora. 
http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/supersmashbros/
--Air Head 01:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gamespot ain't Sakurai are they? When the credits are posted on the internet we can find out who it is. Angry Sun 17:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Developer (Again) 

message: Why the heck do we have a "Items and Abilities" section and underneath it a "Confirmed Items" subsection? In accordance to what everyone one else said here, we should not speculate. We shouldn't be listing the item unless it is confirmed. Have a Nice Day :) 18:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had removed it previously...someone decided to add it back I guess. It's gone now. -Sukecchi 19:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

text: But there's info right above it in the "Items and abilities" section, and says nearly the same exact thing. So it's redundant. — MalcolmUse the schwartz! 19:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Item Section

message: Nintendrone recently did an interview with Nintendo, in which information about Brawl was revealed. Said information can be found here. I added the information with a source to the article, but it was removed due to not being "a reliable source". I figured you guys could deside on wether or not it's a reliable source or not. Takuthehedgehog 05:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a blog by a random guy (not a reliable source). He has no actual credentials, so there is no way of knowing if he is actually real or not. TTN 05:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: We discussed this exact blog in the last currently archived talk page. Since it's a blog, no reliability can be assigned to itDurinsBane87 06:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nintendrone

message: The website has officially named those huge-o moves as Final Smashes. And they're activated when you grab a Smash Ball. 84.13.127.26 09:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it was added about two minutes after the update. Gurko 10:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Smash