Talk:Urdu alphabet

message: I have added a Urdu vowel chart, which was graciously created by Shibo77 on my subpage Urduchart.  Thanks. Mar de Sin Talk to me! 20:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they're supposed to appear on the preceding letter. — kwami (talk) 08:01, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Urdu chart 

message: The history section is at best badly written and at worst horribly inaccurate. The script used by the Sassanid Empire i.e. Pahlavi immediately before the Islamic conquest was influenced directly by the Aramaic alphabet and Arabic was developed from the Nabatean alphabet. Persia was in contact with Mesopotamia and the Levant more than Arabia. The Arab Invasion saw to it to remove as much Sassanian influence from Iran as possible and thus forced the use of the Arabic script on Persians. The only thing Persian about the script is that both Naskh and Nastaliq were invented by Persians post-conquest but those are styles of calligraphy derived from Kufic, not entirely different systems altogether. Moreover, it seems as though the author of that section tried to rewrite history to provide rationale and precedence for the use of a foreign script by giving it an Aryan (Persian) and thus more dare-I-say "Indian" origin. Of course, there really isn't much need for that since most countries use a foreign script anyway. I suggest that someone rewrite this section. Xerces1492 (talk) 14:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: History not accurate

message: I could not find the symbol for a as in aam عام Please tell if ʿain (as on the Article (item no 24 in the table) has two "initial forms"; one as there and another as here in عام (aam = mango/common)?
- Saurabh 117.198.128.110 (talk) 14:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In Urdu ʕɑːm(:meaning common:عام) and ɑːm(:mangoe:آم) are diferrent.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.63.143.111 (talk) 08:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  'a' sound missing 

message: Do the letters in the alphabet table appear correct for anyone?  They don't for me.
I've tried loading the pages from various devices, and they are either not in Nastaliq (when I use Apple products) or don't display correctly (with PC).  The dashes before the characters don't seem to change the letters to their medial or final forms.
Just trying to figure out if this issue is limited to me, or something wrong with the page.
Nastaliq:
No Nastaliq:
ـجـ
Possible solution:  use the zero-width jointer "‍" character instead of "ـ"
No.	Name	Transcription	IPA	Contextual forms	Contextual forms	Contextual forms	Isolated
No.	Name	Transcription	IPA	Final           	Medial          	Initial         	Isolated
6  	sē  	s            	   	                	                	                	
7  	jīm 	j            	   	                	                	                	
If the problem's not limited to me, I'll update the table to look like the above format.
Muldoon99 (talk) 16:04, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice catch... Actually no Apple device has a Nastaliq font built-in, so displaying Nastaliq is impossible on an Apple device. I don't know any other OS which has a built-in Nastaliq font (Android, Linux, Chrome OS). The only devices with built in Nastaliq fonts are devices running Windows 8.x OS and Windows Phone 8.x OS (thanks to Microsoft for adding the font 'Urdu Typesetting'). Another issue is that the Nastaliq fonts available don't allow for separate contextual forms, one reason being that the contextual forms vary greatly in size and shape depending on the surrounding letters. So it is impractical to include contextual forms when there are so many for a single letter.  One solution could be removing contextual Nastaliq forms altogether and avoiding the fuss. Another way to fix this thing for all devices what-so-ever is to create seperate .svg images for ALL possible contextual forms in some Nastaliq font. I am going to start work on the latter proposal. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 16:17, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This is because people shouldn't use the presentation blocks (FB50—FDFF, FE70—FEFF) at all, it is strongly discouraged. These blocks are from the 1990s era and have been added only for compatibility. One should use characters only from the basic Arabic blocks. Most if not all contemporary fonts substitute the presentations forms automatically.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:06, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Using the extension character will be using the presentations forms that contemporary fonts substitute the automatically, it's not using the legacy presentations form characters. Irtapil (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

text: Does the availability of Noto Nastaliq solve the problem on apple devices? I'll try using zero width joiner to fix the ye table. Is there a reason the full letter table no-longer has presentation forms? Irtapil (talk) 22:46, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letters in Alphabet Table 

message: Hello, I was looking for information on the character ہ but I did not find it here. I am talking about the character used in the first part of the words ہی، ہم، ہوں (hai, ham, houn). This character is not displayed the same way for me as any of the he characters displayed on this page. —biocrite {📠Talk • 📝Contribs} 14:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Curious.  That's choti he ہ, but for some reason a previous user removed it from the table.  They seem to have made a lot of...unusual...changes to the alphabet table that I'm not quite certain of (I don't think "ya" or "lalalif" count as letters, though maybe there could be a section for the unusual conjuncts).  I'm going to look for a solid source for the alphabet, since it seems like a lot of alphabet table changes have been done based on personal preference.  Muldoon99 (talk) 15:15, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing ہ 

message: In the subsection labeled "Kāf or Gāf with Alif or Lām", the difference in the forms is not visible to me because the font loaded is Tahoma, or at least looks much like Tahoma. Nastaliq is not showing!
Edit: I think there is already an issue with Nastaliq (1). 3omarz (talk) 07:31, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What system/browser are you using?  I've got windows 8 running, and all the conjucts for laam and alif appear in Nastaliq.  I know some pages load with the font "Urdu Typesetting," which comes standard with Windows 8.Muldoon99 (talk) 23:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

text: I use Firefox with Noto Nastaliq (by Google) installed, and everything looks well (except for "bari ye", is it really equal to plain "ye" at the beginning and in the middle?) If this does not work right, then change your settings (In Firefox: Tools→ Options→ Content→ Fonts→ Advanced→ Allow pages...; and change fonts in the Arabic part)--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:17, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nastaliq not loaded? 

message: Although in the printed texts I saw "bari ye" at the beginning and at the middle written exactly as plain "ye", in most fonts, even special ones like Noto Nastliq Urdu, it is not shown like that. Is it a problem with the fonts or may "bari ye" indeed look like its final form in the middle of words?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:42, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because Unicode only has an isolated and final form for bari ye; the initial and medial forms aren't encoded. In printed works, they use the Arabic yah for the medial form of bari ye. The Old Macintosh (talk) 05:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bari ye 

message: Some questions for  about the recent edits:
# Were the representation forms in the table so useless? I understand that it might look wrong if a reader has no proper font installed and Nastaliq forms are more complicated and numerous than in Naskh, but the table was "fuller".
# The same is about the vowel chart. It was full and detailed, now it is somewhat bare.
# Both ALA-LC and Delacy use "v" for vāo (now wāʾo).
# Rather a technical issue: should we use a macron below (U+035F) or  for kh, gh, sh, zh? ALA-LC says nothing specific.
# Iẓāfāt is rather transcribed as -e not -i/-yi.
# Iẓāfāt with baṛī ye is rather ۓ, not ئے (looks like a roundabout variant).
# Now "Nūn ghunnah" seems to lack an iẓāfāt and has a superfluous -h at the end (ALA-LC advises to retain it, but it's not pronounced anyway).
# Do chashmī are actually two words, why is there a hyphen?
# What's the use of the excessive italics in the table?
--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:14, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some questions 

message: The digraphs section shows uses of several letters with ط appearing over them as an apparent diacritic, but the article doesn't explain this. Shouldn't it? —Largo Plazo (talk) 16:20, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: there's two types of diacritics. The optional vowel diacritics that usually get omitted, and the other type, like that one, which are an inseparable part of the letter, like the dot on English "i" vs the double dot we used to put over some vowels that noöne bothers with anymore. does the current version make it any clearer? Irtapil (talk) 18:03, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  ط 

message: The introduction had blown out into a debate about the whether it's the same language as Hindi (below), fairly board and completely lacking references. Someone else already softened the language a bit, i moved it to the end and tried to adapt it to show it as points if view without taking a side... but it needs a lot of references to fix it, i don't know if that's worth it?
Irtapil (talk) 13:17, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks  but it's back now in the current version. Irtapil (talk) 06:06, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  should this be improved or removed? 

message: you have both said nothing is ever truly lost on wikipedia, so I'm hoping you can help with this.
At some point i lost the full details for two named references  &  can you help me find it? i have most of the info in the notes stored locally on my PC, the one thing i am missing is the access dates.
Is there a way to search the history for when these two first appeared?
Normally i might just fudge it by checking it was still available and putting today's date. For future reference, is that an ok thing to do? But it doesn't work this time, because they are currently not available. As far as i have heard the unicode consortium suffered a catastrophic server failure right when a global pandemic started, so many of their resources are still offline.
Irtapil (talk) 08:31, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is easy to retrieve the last version of your work, but this rather is tedious. I have clicked around in the history, but could not find a version where these references were defined. Maybe you have copied them from a different page without the defining full citation? –Austronesier (talk) 12:06, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   No, not from another page i have a file of notes on my machine with other details, just not the date i added it to the ref list here. Normally i'd just estimate, but since the unicode technical side when off line a bit spectacularly getting that wrong would look bad?  Irtapil (talk) 05:59, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  help tracking changes 

message: I added the edit by  to the draft i am working on. Irtapil (talk) 12:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed now, i just needed to remove some duplicate sections i had a few versions of. Irtapil (talk) 21:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retroflex letters 

message: * I've made several small changes to this page over the past day or two. None of them seem worth starting a thread about. All are relatively minor and i can't see them being very controversial. See the edit history if you are interested.
* Many of them were restoring contributions from other editors from the last few months, between my version and the restored version. I mentioned the editor in the edit comment for these.
Irtapil (talk) 05:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  updates 

message: Restoring an improved version of a table from an old version, now as an appendix at the end. I'll add an improved version in a minute, but restoring original first to keep history. Irtapil (talk) 10:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  adding glossary 

message: Wikipedia:Navigation templates are meant to faciliate "navigation" between articles, a  side-nav temp was created and looks relevant but is being removed with a reason of biasness, which is not apparent to me, I will be restoring the template and will add  and  to address these concerns (though these do not directly link here, I was unable to find a counterpart for Pakistan). Gotitbro (talk) 23:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a strong opinion here either way but the removals do reflect WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You are free to create other nav temps or propose the one created for deletion (WP:TfD), no real reason to remove the ones already created otherwise. Gotitbro (talk) 07:45, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nav temps 

message: BTW my religon is islam so i talk urdu i cant tell the truth میرا نام سارا which means my name is saira  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.137.24.180 (talk) 17:46, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Urdu