Talk:National Armed Forces

message: The NSZ struggled against the new regime, while allegedly continuing to murder Holocaust survivors, whose as NSZ believed were the base for communist government. This material has been suppressed by a well-known vandal. Wetman 05:09, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Old stuff (section heading added 1/6/2012

message: And it really depends on which one you're talking about. Basically the organization kept splitting with more moderate wing coming into the AK in 1944. But I'm pretty sure that NSZ-JK also split (into "Group Szaniec" and the rest). From what I've read the history becomes really murky at this point with a quite real possibility that the group was infiltrated by either Soviet or German agents although basically "who knows". The defining characteristic of the more moderate faction was its anti-Sovietism ("Soviets are as much enemy as the Nazis" compared to AK's stance on Soviets' as "an ally of our allies") while the more extreme splinter groups (and it's also important to keep in mind that for conspiratorial reasons the leadership was very decentralized which meant that a NSZ partisan group in one region could be pretty ideologically different from a NSZ group in another region) being characterized by extreme nationalism, chauvinism and antisemitism. So yes, many of the accusations directed at NSZ are true, many are pure fabrication and communist propaganda and it also depends which NSZ you're talking about.radek (talk) 09:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: There were actually several NZSs

message: This article states "At the maximum strength it reached about a total of 70,000-75,000 members, making it the second largest organization of the Polish resistance" while the article on Bataliony Chlopskie states "At its height, the organisation had 175,000 members.". Obviously 175,000 is more than 75,000 making BCh the second largest organization. Part of the confusion comes from comparing the two organizations at different points in their history and whether or not one counts the parts that merged with AK as part of "mother" organization or not. The way it is written at the moment counts at least a major part of BCh as part of AK while counting all of NSZ as a separate entity. But of course a good chunk of NSZ was also absorbed into the AK. An even handed comparison would count both groups based on either pre-AK merger numbers or post-AK merger numbers, but the definition should be applied consistently. Either way I think BCh would come out ahead (which is what the numbers in the respective articles indicate) - which would also make sense given that SL was a larger party, with a much broader base of support right before the war. So I propose changing "2nd" to "3rd" (with a "after AK and BCh"). Thoughts or objections? radek (talk) 10:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second largest - NSZ vs BCh 

message: The following sentence "Reportedly, communist partisans engaged in planting of false evidence like papers and forged receipts at the sites of their own robberies pointing fingers at NSZ.[citation needed] " does need a proper citation but at the moment I can't find anything "scholarly" (not very many books in English go into detail on the NSZ). However there is this post on an internet history forum: .
(by Bielszyn, slightly more than halfway down the page). It provides an account of a murder and robbery of eleven Jews by a partisan unit. This account was retold in a book by the Communist era publicist Wladyslaw Machejek (Polish Wiki: ) who presented it as a crime committed by a NSZ unit under the command of Wladyslaw Kolacinski (ps. Zbik). As it turns out the account is taken almost verbatim from a statement made by one Tadeusz Maj (ps. Lokietek), in fact a leader of an AL (Armia Ludowa - communist) partisan unit made after the war in which he is actually describing his own crimes. Other noteworthy aspects of this story are that Machejek himself was a member of GL/AL during the war, and that Maj, despite his freely admitted to crimes, became the chief prosecutor working for the Communist security apparatus in Lodz after the war.
Normally I wouldn't consider an online historical forum a reliable source but the author of the post does cite the specific Machejek book in which the story is misattributed to NSZ, as well as the original statement by Maj (in "przesłuchania Tadeusza Maja z 20.5.1953 zdeponowanego w Archiwum Akt Nowych (AAN, PG, t. 21/99, k. 99). Informację tę podaję za za "PPR - Droga do władzy 1941-1944" Piotra Gontarczyka, str. 347").
So there is one instance of communist partisans falsely pointing fingers at NSZ for their own crimes (much more serious than robbery. In fact the account cited makes one nauseous). Would it be alright to cite Gontarczyk on this (though I do not have the book myself)?
Of course none of this is meant to deny that some NSZ units did murder Jews.radek (talk) 07:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is beyond belief that unsubstantiated rubbish in this article is actually published on Wiki and masquerades itself as an “encyclopedic” entry about NSZ.  In fact, it is unconscionable that (and I hate to call many of the suppositions here outright lies) are publically displayed for all to see without any editorial oversight before this “masterpiece” ever found its way on the Wiki pages.  If one was to seriously take the nonsense published here as a “historic” gospel, and the NSZ is to be labeled as " a right wing, anti-communist, anti-semitic paramilitary organization" prominently featured in the "WikiProject Fascism"project, than I suppose, one could also make an equally outrageous assertion that all of the members of the Polish security apparatus were Jews.  Both arguments are of course, absurdly inaccurate.  Bare in mind that I am descendant of Nazi concentration camp survivors, and as such, please don’t try to play the “anti-Semitic” card - It “ain’t” going to work.  The uncomfortable truth is that some Jews joined the UB, and killed Poles and Jews.  Some members of the NSZ killed Jews and Poles, but not because they were Jews, or because they were Poles -they were killed because they were members of the repressive communist security apparatus, caused deaths, inhumane torture, or imprisonment of members of the democratic underground units, or their families.  The “ethnic cleansing” statement is perhaps the most troubling as it equates heroes with barbarians.  I hope it was not the intention of the authors, but unfortunately, it is exactly the way it reads.  If there was any doubt that Wiki is of doubtful scholastic value or has marginal academic credibility, this "creation" is perhaps  the perfect example of what history research is NOT! This article should be removed and rewritten with some editorial oversight.  Best, Robert. Doomed Soldiers (talk) 02:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Robert, I'm somewhat sympathetic, especially as regards the more moderate parts of NSZ (which were there), or many of the individual soldiers who joined simply because they wanted to fight Germans and found themselves caught up in an ideological struggle, or the fact that many (though not all!) of the crimes they were blamed for were not true or were committed by others (like the AL, per above). But a good portion of NSZ, especially NSZ-ZJ and its leadership, was most definitely anti-Semitic as its own publications (by Grupa Szanca for example) or other verifiable sources (even very pro-Polish ones, like Lukas) state (and I don't think you're disputing they were right-wing and anti-communist). And an encyclopedia is about gathering together existing knowledge - based on verifiability and reliable - not generating new knowledge (so you're right - this is not history research, it's not supposed to be). Having said that I do agree that NSZ does not fall within the scope of "fascism" (at best it fulfills 3, maybe 4, of the criteria listed on project page, wheareas to qualify it's got to be 6 out of 7). Also if DS is your webpage then got to say, nice job.radek (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Robert, a lot of that may be true. But the purpose of an encyclopedia is to compile existing knowledge, not carry out research. As a result information that's included in the article has to be referenced to reliable (secondary) sources. For example, the "anti-semitic" claim is cited to Richard Lukas' "The Forgotten Holocaust" . In a similar manner, the fact that despite the fact that a portion of NSZ was anti-semitic, "a number of prominent members of the NSZ made personal efforts to aid and hide Jews" is cited to Jan Marek Chodkiewicz's book. Now, as somebody associated with the Doomed Soldiers website you should probably have access to many sources which are harder to obtain for other editors and it'd be very welcome if you used these sources to expand the article. But in each case the source, the author, the title etc. should be provided (and unfortunately, the website itself does not count as a source). For example, you could add something about Andrzej Kiszka to the article. The article could also use more info on the Communists falsely blaming the organization for their own crimes and the like, again, based on reliable sources.radek (talk) 22:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cite for blaming NSZ for Communist crimes 

message: This will need careful rewriting for tone. "One article asserts...", the antisemitism not in the lead paragraph, etc --Relata refero (disp.) 04:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tag 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on National Armed Forces. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,310528_Cala__Polacy_jako_narod__nie_zdali_egzaminu_.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 10:48, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The NAF may have been far right - I have no idea - but as it is the article simply states this and implies that opposition to communism makes it far right. Is there any objective evidence that it was far right or even right wing?Royalcourtier (talk) 07:04, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Far right? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on National Armed Forces. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://trybuna.eu/alina-cala-nsz-zabily-wiecej-zydow-niz-niemcow/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,310528_Cala__Polacy_jako_narod__nie_zdali_egzaminu_.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071219051422/http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/specjal_041002/specjal_a_6.html to http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/specjal_041002/specjal_a_6.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:27, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Almost half of this article is taken up by "NSZ And the Jews". What's up with that? Not saying it shouldn't be covered, but its clearly taking up too much space. Coverage is out of proportion with the importance/relevance of the topic. 192.38.139.170 (talk) 21:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. Xx236 (talk) 12:11, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's with the Jews? 

message: I removed this, as Libionka is not in the cited source. Furthermore an op-ed by a then-phd student in a newspaper is rather UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: GhettoInvestigator: I take your point that the scholarly article does not use "war crimes". It does use "crimes against national minorities" (page 452, 453, 455, 468) and "crimes". I will modify to that term would be used. The Polish Wikipedia:  as a section on crimes.JoeZ451 (talk) 15:59, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  
Crimes against national minorities
 

message: I request REMOVING the last two National Armed Forces#External links, namely 
* (in English) The Doomed soldiers - Polish Underground Soldiers 1944-1963 - The Untold Story
* National Armed Forces Historical Brief
Reason: These are private sites linking to each other (so one would be enough in any case). Both promote conspiracy theories of the Kaczynski crash (among others) in the sidebar. The second immediately starts by denying the existence of anti-semitic tendencies in the force that is the article's subject. K. Oblique 13:49, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey @Karl Oblique, it makes sense to ditch at least the first one. While the sidebar yells "conspiracy", the content of the second doesn't (to me) make me think it's inappropriate. The supposed quote from Stalin and the paragraph () are bad, since there are citations backing up the anti-Semitism claim. Is the content of the site also unreliable? I wonder if this was published during a time it was reliable, but then over the years became more conspiratorial. My background in this is non-existent, so I wanna double check. The Polish Wikipedia doesn't have these links, but it also has strange section titles about anti-Semitism (e.g.  / , so idk. I would appreciate more insight into the issue. Thanks! SWinxy (talk) 21:51, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

text: Waiting on . SWinxy (talk) 19:34, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 June 2022