Talk:List of Veronica Mars episodes

message: Where does the information about the Season 3 episodes come from? Shouldn't we wait to put those up until they've aired, or at least put up a warning that these episodes haven't aired yet? Sarahjane10784 04:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The episode titles and information came from the Veronica Mars page at SpoilerFix.com. I also added the Future television template to the Season 3 section to warn people that the information there is for episodes that haven't aired yet.--HuskersRule 04:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Season 3 already?

message: Episode 3.03 is listed as "Witchita Linebacker" when it should be "<I>Wichita</I> Linebacker," which is a reference to Wichita Lineman, a Jimmy Webb song. There is no Witchita, Kansas, I believe.
User:Alliterator 11:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What i dont understand is where your sources are for "this episode is named after ..xyz.." -- etc, could someone cite this as it could be named after several names. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 07:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also CWTV has it down as: Witchita Linebacker thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 09:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry. IMDb lists the episode as "Wichita," though TV.com lists it as "Witchita." I just think that "Wichita" makes more sense since the song/city is "Wichita." But I think we may have a "Ruskie/Russkie Business" on our hands here. User:Alliterator 08:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMDb is user submited, CWTV is the official website, official wins over user submited, any day and hence CWTV = correct. (-: thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 16:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about the Veoh Video Site, which is partially written by Mike Weiss, script supervisor. I'd say that is pretty official and there, it says "Wichita." But we have conflicting sources, so I don't mind if it stays "Witchita." User:Alliterator 14:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, now we have definite proof that it's called "Witchita Linebacker": the script. So we should leave it like that; however, I still contend that it <I>should</I> be "Wichita." Because I'm stubborn like that. User:Alliterator 16:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 3.03: Wichita Linebacker

message: The episodes have "this episode was named after xxx" with no reference to the source, im going to remove this sort of information soon unless it can be sourced as it seems like fan guesswork aka OR. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 09:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: John Enbom and Phil Klemmer, the writers of "Wichita Linebacker," stated that it was named after "Wichita Lineman" in the offical podcast on the Veoh Video site, so that should stay. I don't see why the obvious allusions to songs have to go (I mean, what else could "Ain't No Magic Mountain High Enough" be a reference to?), but if you want a reference page, you can also use marsinvestigations.net's Cultural References page (they have one for every episode), so it wouldn't be OR. User:Alliterator 14:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Named after songs 

message: I think we should have writers and directors listed on the episodes for this page as well, because it's a bit interesting to just see it all in one place in my opinion. Also, look at List of The West Wing episodes, List of Arrested Development episodes and List of Grey's Anatomy episodes. These articles and more have writers and directors on them. WestWingFan 22:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad someone decided to add a talk page section concerning this as that's why I removed the additions in the first place. I wanted to have people here come to a consensus as whether to include writers/directors on the page before actually adding them to the page(and also since the formatting was messed-up and needed to be fixed anyway). I'm fine with adding them on the first 2 seasons and the first 9 episodes of the third season as they've already aired and we won't have new episodes until the end of January to worry about. My only problem with the rest of season 3 that has not aired yet is it means having to edit the page every time we get info on who will write/direct the upcoming episodes and even at this moment I only have an unconfirmed mention of who's writing the next 2 episodes, but not who's directing also. This is not to say having to edit many times is bad, I'd just rather not have to edit more than is needed. But if more people like having them on there, I'll accept it and just edit whenever it is necessary.--HuskersRule 03:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, since my last comment I looked around and realized that there's a specific template for List of episode pages that facilitates easier editing and setup for the page which was my main problem with changing the look and adding writers/directors to the page in the first place. If we go with that, I would be fine with adding that extra info to the page and now that I know who's writing/directing the next two episodes and will know within a couple days the third, it won't be that big of a problem to me to re-do the setup with that template. And considering the next episode will be on in less than a week, a decision on whether to do this or not might need to be made soon.--HuskersRule 04:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since we are now in the second hiatus of the season and won't have a new episode for another 2 months, I decided to enter in all the info from the current episode list(minus the info at the top since I won't mess with that) into the template I found, adding in the writers/directors from the episodes(including the directors from the rest of the season's episodes) and put it in my Sandbox for people here to look at and decide upon. The obvious things are what green shades to use on the page, considering the talk below on this page, whether to link all writers/directors or to only link to the ones that have pages, the spacing of the cells, but basically anything that you can think of. I mainly copied the setup from the List of House episodes page, save for a couple things, which is why I have the Overview section at the top that I found on there and other List pages. I would also like to know your comments on that, specifically what to include, how big to make it and whether to use green shades like the seasons have or to use colors taken from the DVD sets like the House page and others use, or even whether to include it at all. You can make comments here or on my Sandbox talk page there as I'll see both. I really want to have people give comments on this as I'd rather have a general consensus on what the setup should be, then add it after and not just add it without a consensus and have it be removed or be constantly changed because someone doesn't like it.--HuskersRule 00:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well now that the show has returned and no one responded, I decided to implement the changes I proposed. If anyone doesn't like something that I included on the page, specifically the Overview section, go ahead and fix it or remove it if it's not needed.--HuskersRule 02:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Writers/Directors on this page 

message: Due to recent edits on a couple season 1 episode pages, I'm thinking that we should add character names for the guest stars under the actor's names in the infobox on those pages, like on the Buffy episodes and Angel episodes for instance. I originally thought they shouldn't be included and removed them from one of the episodes, but they were then added again later on the same one and two others. I then changed my mind and thought they might be a good idea with a couple tweaks to the setup and decided to ask here for other people's opinions on this since this is the best place to ask regarding the episode pages for the show.--HuskersRule 04:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Character names on episode pages 

message: Anyone got a citation for "production codes"? Matthew 11:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know for all the Season 3 episodes the production codes are in the press releases given to sites like The Futon Critic(which is where I get my info on who writes/directs the episodes and anything else to do with the specific episodes). Sites like TV.com and others like it probably have guesses for the third season based on the previous episodes since the show's episodes are produced in the order they air, but they so far have been confirmed as the press releases come out for each episode. For Seasons 1 and 2, the numbers are taken directly from the episodes themselves as they are listed in the end credits for the episodes since the press releases on The Futon Critic don't have production codes listed. I hope that answers your question.--HuskersRule 03:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Codes 

message: Whoever made the changes to the format, please re-insert the screenshots. Berserkerz Crit 08:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's nobody's fault here that the images are gone. Apparently the template that is now being used for the page removed the screenshot parameter due to fair use problems, according to the talk page for the template, and now comes up with a blank area since the screenshot part of the template is gone. Since it's looking like it won't be added back in for the near future, the screenshot section will probably have to be removed from the page. --HuskersRule 11:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The screenshots are gone

message: Those interested in improving articles relating to the individual episodes might want to consult sites like:
*Mars Investigations - considerable detail on each episode (the linked page describes cultural references in "Lord of the Pi's", for example)
*CW Episode Guide
*TWIZ TV Transcripts (Seasons 1 and 2) - for reference - I linked to a specific episode because the TWIZ homepage was almost unusable due to terrible redirecting ads; change the ep number in the URL for others.
Hope this helps! Any other links or sources would be appreciated in order to improve and expand the episode articles. Please post them below this message. --SuperNova |T|C| 23:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first is a fan site, so it cannot be used. The second seems to be heavily user edited, so it cannot be used. The third cannot be used as a source, but it seems to just be for writing the plot summaries anyways. TTN 23:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you give an example of a source for episodes of any TV show, ever, then? Mars Investigations seems pretty thorough, and I'm curious what sources you would find acceptable. Obviously, any deep work on a TV series is going to be produced by its fans, so unless you want to restrict this to books (published only for the most famous series, possibly vetted more than a "fan site", but ultimately by a fan for fans) or nothing at all, I'm not sure what's OK to use. TV.com is also user-edited, I believe, as is IMDB, but they are used by numerous articles on Wikipedia. Sources for any pop culture article are bound to be problematic. --SuperNova |T|C| 02:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: DVD commentary, non-trivial articles, critical reviews, ans things like that are good enough. Basically, that would mean anything that is published (a fact checking site with editorial oversight would be fine, but not a fan site). It can be geared for fans, but it needs to fit WP:RS. TV.com and IMDB are only used for certain things on most articles (ratings), and even then, they're really only used as filler. That is the reason why most episodes don't need articles; they cannot be sourced. TTN 15:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The CW episode list is not user edited at all.  The only thing user edited on the site is the CW wiki for the show, and that doesn't really have anything useful anyway.  Rvb_strongbad 04:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever the case, I don't really see anything besides plot summaries on there anyways. TTN 15:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's still a reliable secondary source for plot information (the same goes for the third link). Matthew 16:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Being a fan site doesn't disqualify a website from being a RS. Generally your average Joe fansite isn't a RS, though. Sites with a history of stability, editorial oversight and factuality do count as reliable sources. Matthew 15:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A few here and there may be decent sources, but I don't really see it happening in this case because we really cannot accept critical analysis from a bunch of fans (which they even claim to be). There are certain cases where we could say otherwise, but not in this one. That site doesn't really seem like it would help anyways. TTN 16:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks quite reliable to me. Matthew 16:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: It seems to be pretty much like a blog without the main format. Sites like these are done by random people with no real credentials that I am aware of. Their writing can easily be passed off as pure opinion. They are not fact checking and nothing like goes into making sure that the information is correct (like an editor or something). For these to work as reliable sources, they would need some sort of professionalism in them. You can try asking elsewhere if you disagree. TTN 19:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Single Episode Article Improvements 

message: :Image:VeronicaMarsSeason3DVD.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 01:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:VeronicaMarsSeason3DVD.jpg

message: :Image:VeronicaMarsSeason3DVD.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:VeronicaMarsSeason3DVD.jpg

message: Ok, so I know all the episode pages are going to be merged soon...but still this page absolutely SUCKS!!!! The plot is all wrong, not wrong, but it doesn't have the important stuff. The arc signifiance had bad info, so I changed it (please add or remove facts) and put the real arc sig. stuff. The page needs to be improved....but I guess there really is no point. (Wikirocks2 07:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you dont like the information feel free to edit it and improve on it. Peachey88 (Talk Page | Contribs) 08:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Postgame Mortem 

message: It's a year later, and despite a lot of arguing, little to no effort has gone into improving the episode articles. Time to call the shots and finally "merge" (often just redirect) the articles? – sgeureka t•c 14:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: These should definitely be redirected until such a time where they can assert independent notability. TTN (talk) 15:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't want to redirect the episodes, but I guess I knew this was going to happen sooner or later. I think I can get a couple of episodes up to GA status, namely the Pilot and the series finale, and assume notability for a couple of others. For now, I say redirect, although could we wait for a couple of others until we determine consensus? Corn.u.co.pia / Disc.us.sion 05:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The good thing about redirecting is that articles can be restored without bureaucracy if someone actually wants to work on it. Keeping the pilot and the finale unredirected for a prolonged time is usually not a problem. But from experience, it will be rough to keep plans/promises to significantly improve these articles if you have other wikipedia or real-life joys (I have so far managed 4 GA ep articles in 9 months, one third of my initial plan). This discussion will be open for about two weeks so that everyone can weigh in. – sgeureka t•c 07:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So far, I have been working on this page itself. I will start working on the individual pages soon. Corn.u.co.pia / Disc.us.sion 15:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Gosh, why do you people have to be so uptight about rules and policies? As a fan of the show, I find a lot of useful information in the episode pages, be it the plot outline or arc significance, or even trivia. I think it's more important that content be useful to readers than for it to follow some arbitrary "notability guidelines" and whatnot. And who cares if the arc significance sections are only meaningful to fans of the show? The point is, they are meaningful to some people, and since it does not harm any one to keep them, I see no reason to delete them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.169.128 (talk) 06:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

text: I'll go ahead and redirect (merge if there's something to merge) the season 3 episode articles to Veronica Mars (season 3) now. Feel free to resurrect any articles that you wish to work on (i.e. establishing WP:NOTABILITY or adding so much sourced non-trivial real-world information that they qualify for a WP:SPINOUT). – sgeureka t•c 17:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, since there are usually one or two bullet point entries of unsourced production info, but Veronica Mars (season 3) is too darn good as an article, I'll refrain from merging anything and wait with the redirecting for a couple more days so that people can comment here what should be done with that unsourced info (I can't be sure if it's all too trivial to be merged anyway). – sgeureka t•c 17:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I had been dreading this moment for a while. Oh well, I guess it's all for the best. Anyways, sorry I haven't replied to you for a while; this page accidentally came off my watchlist, so I was unaware that you were leaving messages. I'll try to ressurect a couple of episodes within the next few weeks. Corn.u.co.pia / Disc.us.sion 23:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Is there any particular hurry to this?  WP:TIND, and Cornucopia and I are still reasonably active on this, even though I've been derailed by an RfA for a couple of weeks. :-S Point is, we'll get around to it, one way or the other.  Many of the episodes DO have reviews in reliable sources, that haven't yet been integrated into the episode articles, and I think you've seen both of us take a proactive stand at merging things that clearly don't merit individual articles. Jclemens (talk) 00:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is indeed no hurry, but I haven't been getting any replies here for nearly 1.5 months, so I naturally assumed that people wouldn't care anymore. None of the season 3 articles seemed to be actively worked on either, so I just took action. Should I read your reply to mean that I should wait with the merger/redirection of S1 and S2 and/or leave it to you? I just want to bring closure to this after this one-year merge proposal. – sgeureka t•c 00:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we started in on this improvement effort after the yearlong cleanup started.  I would hate to have you redirect a bunch of stuff, and then us undo it and add to it later.  No real harm, since the articles don't have to be undeleted to be restored, it just seems like a waste of effort.  Note also that we don't have article seasons for 1 and 2 yet, so merging might be messy--I don't want to drop the quality of this article, or of Veronica Mars by mixing it with some unsourced or undersourced stuff from those episodes. Ultimately, redirects or expansions will happen for each of the 64 episodes... but it won't be this week. Jclemens (talk) 00:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd also hate to do stuff that you'd only have to revert in the end to get your kick-ass VM wiki coverage. You two are reasonable editors so I am fine with everything you do, as long as something gets done. – sgeureka t•c 01:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Notability is not a cardinal rule. Keep the articles as they are. Remember WP is not paper.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 23:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Episode notability Part Deux 

message: The lead should summarize the article, not contain information not present anywhere else. It really needs to be trimmed and the stuff about the ending of the series should have its own section at the bottom of the page, with a brief mentioning in the lead (i.e. The series was cancelled after its third season...). The same goes for the reception information.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 03:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I created a new section for the cancellation information, but not for the reception information. I'm not too sure how to deal with it. Corn.u.co.pia / Disc.us.sion 04:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since much of this info is already contained within Veronica Mars, should we just drop it from this article? Jclemens (talk) 04:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, but just the "Veronica Mars appeared on a number of fall television best lists,[10] and garnered a number of awards and nominations" section. Corn.u.co.pia / Disc.us.sion 04:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was asking Bignole's opinion, too.  I'm rather neutral on the matter--Just questioning, not advocating, in other words. Jclemens (talk) 04:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "List of" page are generally pretty trim, but they also usually don't have as much info because the shows have more seasons. But, since you're doing season pages as well, I would drop all of that stuff on each season section of this page, and cut the lead to just the necessity. You could keep the overall ratings for each season, some general reception, and the cancellation stuff here (be more succinct and place it in a section at the bottom of the article...one for reception and one for cancelation). Then I would trim those plot summaries down to either snippets of info, or cut altogether. You're creating season pages so you don't need to rehash the same stuff word-for-word over there as well.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 04:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

text: On second thought about the season average viewership, leave it where it is in the lead and don't worry about a section for it. You could consider that a "summarization" of the viewership ratings for each episode of each season.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 04:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They don't seem to be doing season pages (yet), though. If they were, then I'd also advocate to move the season leads there, leaving a short blurb here. But it's a judgement call to do season pages for a three-season show, or summarize all in one place (as it currently is). – sgeureka t•c 08:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Yeah, we may be trying to do too much at once, but we're too dumb to know any better. :-) I'm not attached to writing each season up separately, but I'm willing to go along with and help whatever--my priority is getting this article to FLC first. Jclemens (talk) 18:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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