Talk:Frank Lorenzo

message: This biography is loaded with one sided and unsourced claims.  Not even close to unbiased or fair. Pburns07 (talk) 12:19, December 12, 2006 
:This is no longer true (05 Jan 2009); too much more detail and this will become a 4mb bio.  The biography appears to be reasonably well balanced, on the basis of historical evidence.  Neither labor nor Lorenzo and his friends will ever be wholly satisfied with it; but it DOES now appear much better.  It is, in my view, an A-level bio.  I have recently reviewed many others with higher ratings that are less salutary.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneranger (talk • contribs) 18:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I love that one ("Lorenzo's critics ARE NOT THE UNIONS.").  Thanks for that----I haven't had an occasion to laugh that hard for quite awhile.  Saying that the UNIONS are not the critics of Lorenzo, is akin to saying that the Democrats were not the critics of George W. Bush.  Back to REALITY: I never heard of any that hated Lorenzo more, than the typical militant Union guy---whether a Union boss or just a rank-n-file type.  EditorASC (talk) 14:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny then that the people who pushed Lorenzo out of the airline business were the Bush 41 Department of Transportation.  And how he was tarred in public by none other than William F. Buckley, that scion of organized labor.  
Here's the link- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n18_v42/ai_8859948/
But if you can't wait, trust me, the opening lines suffice.  "I wish there were an insurance policy one could take out in defense of capitalism. I could imagine that the premiums would have been oversubscribed to an Adam Smith Fund to Retire Frank Lorenzo. Or to a Ludwig von Mises Fund to Protect the Market from Frank Lorenzo."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.86.112 (talk) 12:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: I have added properly documented material relevant to Frank Lorenzo's biography.  I note that user 'Wikilore' undid these edits.  Can any users who monitor this page shed light on why this is?  Please note that I will continue to edit this page to provide an unbiased and accurate accounting of this man's career and impact on the airline industry. Mikewelch7 (talk) 01:38, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikilore Edits 

message: That almost across the board none of the airlines Lorenzo oversaw (or in fact any of the ones his proteges did either) were ever very successful in the business they were operating in (compare People's Express to say Southwest, the collapse of TWA under one of  his proteges, the collapse of Eastern, and the generally poor performance of Continental until it was brought under new management). Most, if not all of the "success" of Lorenzos tactics were mostly in often byztantine and favorable corporate raids and financial dealings, and not in fact, having anything to do with the companys operations at all. SiberioS 06:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  It should be pointed out... 

message: This entry is a inaccurate portrayal of Frank Lorenzo and fails to credit him accurately with the bankruptcy and divesture of Eastern and the subsequent bankruptcy proceedings of Continental, in which the Court determined he was unfit to head the airline.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.190.224.130 (talk) 00:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  It should be pointed out... 

message: I have worked for Continental, Texas Intl., New York Air, as well as other airlines and financial industry firms.  I am personally acquainted with Mr. Lorenzo, in all his moods.  I've gone through this article and attempted, in an even-handed fashion, to elucidate some of the more heavily-contended points cited by previous reviewers.  While it is true that Lorenzo was truculent and inflexible in many of his dealings with labor, it is equally true that, if an industry ever needed rapid change and re-birth, it was the U.S. airline industry of the 1980s.  Lorenzo's sword cuts both ways.  The industry today is, and I am in a peculiarly unique position to know this, far better off in terms of adaptability, flexibility and realistic financing than it was 25+ years ago.  Much of the credit for this innures to Frank Lorenzo.  It is equally true that his roughshod manner trashed the hopes, dreams, and lifestyles of many airline industry employees.  That is a legacy that Mr. Lorenzo appears to have chosen to live with.  On balance, I believe that we as a nation are better off having a resilient and financially-well-grounded airline industry; but that conclusion may be best left to our children or grandchildren to decide. One Lorenzo legacy is indisputable:  whether you like it or not, he, more than any other individual since 1980, has planned, maneuvered, and succeeded in imposing his vision of airline economics and network operating philosophies on the U.S. airline industry--although his goals at the time may have been much more limited.  American (AA), Delta (DL), Northwest (NW), United (UA), US Air (US) and even post-deregulation carriers flying European and Asian skies are direct beneficiaries of the bruises, bumps and lacerations of the Lorenzo era.
As concerns one commentator's remark that, "(the article) hardly mentions the fact that Lorenzo bankrupted nearly every airline he came into contact with", it ought not to need be, but appears to need be commented that Delta Airlines, Northwest Airlines, and United Airlines, all large legacy carriers at whose helm Frank Lorenzo has never sat, have in recent years endured bankruptcy.  Pan Am and TWA, once the crown jewels of American international aviation, both wound up dead, with American having to rescue TWA from the same fate as Pan Am.  Texas International was never a bankruptee; and National Airlines might have avoided its bankrupt fate after absorption by Pan Am if it had preferred a merger with Texas International in 1978--although we will never know.  There are other carriers "untainted" by Lorenzo's brush that have also fallen bankrupt, I cite "new" Frontier to name but one.  Bankruptcy is, in American law, not a bad but a GOOD thing:  it affords companies (or individuals) in difficult circumstances another chance at building a successful franchise (or lives).  What is wrong with that?  "redstoneranger"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneranger (talk • contribs) 01:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  An attempt at remediation and fairness 

message: Sure, Lorenzo did "break the unions" and made sure that a company with the same name as Continental (and whatever other airlines that he led) flew again some day after bankruptcy(or not- i.e. Eastern Airlines). I don't see how he deserves any credit for deregulation.  Deregulation mattered because the companies that came out of it were profitable.  Lorenzo gutted companies of some of their inefficiencies (and some of their profitable units) but never led a profitable airline, or led an airline towards profitability.  The fact remains that Congress, and not Frank Lorenzo, passed the airline deregulation acts.  Rollin King and Herb Kelleher, the geniuses of Southwest Airlines, realized low fare air travel profitably years before Lorenzo was even a chief executive at an airline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.127.86.16 (talk) 06:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious Deregulation Credentials

message: All - I have been making edits as you well know in an attempt to take point of view (POV) comments out of Frank Lorenzo's page. Of course, folks on the other side of the table likely feel the same way about their edits. I urge us all to try a novel approach and stick to the facts and only the facts. I suggest we debate the facts in this discussion board, come to an agreement that excludes all POV and then implement this agreed upon data into the page. If we stick to the facts, I have no problem representing those in Frank Lorenzo's page.
Thus, in following I suggest we tackle the following first: currently the page has a heading that says "Banned by U.S. Department of Transportation." Frank was never banned by the US Department of Transportation. If anyone disagrees, I suggest they provide government documentation to support this claim. The facts are that an application by a company called ATX Inc. was submitted and was declined by the US Department of Transportation under the newly elected Clinton Administration, which is well documented. Frank was a Director and investor in ATX, Inc. He was never banned and such language paints a negative picture. Please provide further factual edits to the following below with a view to posting it once we all agree:
"ATX Inc. Lorenzo was part of a group of executives that formed ATX, Inc., a startup airline, and applied for an aviation license. He was a director and investor in ATX, Inc. Under the newly elected Clinton Administration, ATX's application was declined and the airline folded as a result."
I look forward to hearing others' constructive input and hope we can edit Frank's page with factual data only rather than opinion.  If we stick to the facts, regardless of what they are, I have no problem leaving them on the bio.
Sincerely,
Wikilore  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikilore (talk • contribs) 18:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would caution that we keep in mind that Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. "Facts" can be as slippery as the "truth", so let's make sure we stick to verifiable information from reliable sources.  Frank    talk  18:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Besides, Wikilore, when your changes include putting back the "www.dw" typo at the start of the article, it's clear you aren't even reviewing what your doing.  Get verifiable facts and source them before adding them back. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And another thing we should keep in mind is WP:NPA.  Frank    talk  19:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

text: And would require a citation to be left "as is" anyway. If he wasn't banned, we can't say that he was.  Frank    talk  19:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

text: I certainly support that; a year ago it was a much better article, in my opinion.  Frank    talk  20:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A year ago, this article was still a complete shill for Frank Lorenzo.  It contained tons of completely unsourced claims about Lorenzo's intimate life that could frankly only been known by Lorenzo himself or his very close family.  Used to sell neckties and drive coca-cola trucks?  Please!  Frank, you yourself reverted well sourced additions of Lorenzo's biography to previous edits that were probably done by editors who are in Frank Lorenzo's family, Like Barcelona_wiki.  (Lorenzo is a second generation immigrant from the Barcelona area).  Frankly, Frank, I suspect you and Wikilore don't only cross paths on wikipedia entries.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.86.112 (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I confess I haven't paid such close attention to this article lately, but if you can show the diffs for the edits you are referring to, I'll certainly be happy to be a part of moving this article to more neutral and cited ground. (I'm ignoring the rest, which has nothing to do with building this article.)  Frank    talk  18:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A call for peace and factual debate 

message: In case the same person who used the Airguy account returns to this Talk page, please read the note that was left for you at User talk:Airguy#Your possible use of multiple accounts. If you write down your password there is no reason why you can't use one account consistently. This helps others take your contributions seriously. EdJohnston (talk) 22:05, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note (also posted on Airguy's talk page): I notice I have been named above in error since I don't know Airguy.  I have been doing research on the airline industry after deregulation.  Lorenzo has seemed to play a big role in this evolution, both negatively and positively, which is why I have incorporated some of my findings on Continental and have been looking at the contentious Eastern case as well.  My changes have no bearing on Airguy's opinion.  -DavidDaws  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDaws (talk • contribs) 03:04, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Airguy using multiple accounts?