Talk:Michael Richards/Archive 1

message: Is this the same person who was killed in the World Trade Center attacks? If so, it should be noted. If not, we need a disambig page.
Casualties of the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks: City of New York
Paul, in Saudi
:No. Michael Richards (AKA Kramer) has been in the news of late (re: the Seinfeld DVD) and is very much alive and quipping.  chocolateboy 19:06, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: World Trade Center?

message: Where's that "Freemason" magazine picture from?--213.238.212.98 21:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freemason magazine 

message: The character of Kramer is Jewish. I myself was under the impression that Kramer is a strictly Jewish surname (may well be true in real life but not necessarily in the world of make believe). However, in the episode where he arranges the shindig for Jewish singles he explicitly states that he is not Jewish.
Removed this here: "Altough he is famous for playing a Jewish character on Seinfeld, Richards is a Roman Catholic." What's Jewish about Kramer? Is so, why would the reader find this notable? --Wetman 07:47, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, Kramer is just a German occupation name for a peddler. It's easy to Google non-Jewish Kramers. --Dhartung | Talk 20:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misconception?

message: I've removed the sentence about him being a vietnam war veteran, and also the category. He was drafted during the war, but according to the article he didn't serve there, meaning that he isn't a vietnam war veteran! Bjelleklang  -  talk 13:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vietnam war veteran

message: Its hardly so notable as to deserve placement right next to Emmy Award winner and producer! And, looking at :Category:American Freemasons (his category) I can't see from going down the list of other members one other article that even has this in the opening paragraph. Was this consensus from a prior discussion?  Glen  21:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved it down now. It was wrongly placed (and lacked a following comma too, so it read "Freemason writer"). Bwithh 22:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On a different note: Why is "Freemason" in the opening line? 

message: Uh, what's with the censorship of the controversy section (apart from one loaded ethnic slur which apparently doesn't qualify)? (WP:NOT#CENSORED) Bwithh 22:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The censorship has been removed (see also WP:Profanity: "words should never be bowdlerized by replacing letters in the word with dashes, asterisks, or other symbols"). Strom 22:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy censorship

message: I am opposed to tagging this article with the Racism category. If you look at other articles in this category, it's not a list of racist people, it's meant to include articles on the topic of racism. This article is not about racism. It's about a celebrity. There is no precedent for the Racism category to be used on every person in Wikipedia who has ever been documented making racist statements. We also must consider that this article is a biography about a living person (see WP:BLP). While it is prudent to mention the event, this only adds to the needless controversy surrounding the article. Strom 00:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: --Agree. I added the thing below before I saw this. --Macarion 00:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Folks, the category isn't :Category:Racist people, it's :Category:Racism, big difference. The racism category concerns articles that are notably related to the concept. There are plenty of individuals in the category see: Jackie Mason, Mark Fuhrman, John Tyler Morgan, Johnny Rebel (singer),  Joice Heth, and Jack van Tongeren. There's more where that came from. (→Netscott) 00:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When you think about an encyclopedia and its coverage of history, do you really think that it's prudent to declare Michael Richards a notable figure in the history of racism? To say the very least, it's way too early to tell. As you can see above, I was a big proponent of covering this event (earlier, editors had totally removed the section and protected the article). However, that category is clearly underdeveloped, given that Hitler and Martin Luther King, Jr. aren't in it. I just don't think that haphazardly putting an underused category tag that smacks of a libel lawsuit is the right thing to do (again, given WP:BLP). If there was an actively-managed "Race-related current events" category, this article would be a great candidate. Strom 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I think its clear the category is not designed for general use as you intend. Also, if you read those articles, you'll see that those people have their central occupations based around the subject. An actor who makes racist comments for 30 minutes one evening definitely doesnt qualify (no matter how bad the comments were)  Glen  00:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 30 minutes? more like 3 minutes. And by Wikipedia's own definition of Racism, Michael Richards' outburst was not racist. Rather, what he said was just plain old hateful and laced with racial slurs. — NRen2k5 16:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of '''Category:Racism''' 

message: No, he wasn't actually suggesting that the man be lynched. We don't even know if this incident will be remembered at all a few months from now. His remarks weren't any new thing that someone would study if they were studying the history of racism. --Macarion 00:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Racism category.

message: I've already made a number of reverts on this article and so I won't be reverting anymore today but unfortunately this article is suffering from recentism. There's no need for an entire transcript of what transpired the other night on this article (in fact the inclusion of the text is likely a copyright violation). I would advise fellow editors to trim this (currently entitled) "Racism controversy" section down again. Thanks. (→Netscott) 01:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strong agree (I'm in the same position with regard to number of reverts). There is no reason for the full transcript to be included in this article. Also see WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:TE##Undue_weight for discussions on this. A good example of well-written coverage of a celebrity's controversial outburst at a videotaped event is this: Kanye West#2006. Note that the issue is summarized in a few sentences with links to articles that contain the entire transcript and videos (or links to videos). There is no need to include all of this detail within the wikipedia article. Strom 01:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I added this section obviously as the one above was added... great minds think alike :) 
C'mon guys this 
# adds nothing to the article that a synopsis could not and
# Looks ridiculous as it dominates the entire article
# takes advantage of this discussion - editors here who believe this shouldnt be included at all - it seems they have allowed a compromise, but this new section abuses that allowance
I am placing this here to see if there is strong objection, otherwise this addition should be reversed  Glen  01:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Leave the entire script on the talk page until a consensus.  I typed it up from the video as close as I could get.  It is better than some of the other transcripts.  --Kalmia 01:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, sorry, better it be taken down than left up. As caz pointed out, it really "dominates the article" and doesn't really add anything. Anyway, if we decide to put it back in it should be trivial to dig it up from the diffs. — NRen2k5 16:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe Wikisource it if you can't agree to put it in the article.--Kalmia 01:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:Recentism]]

message: :I added this section obviously as the one above was added... great minds think alike :) 
C'mon guys this 
# adds nothing to the article that a synopsis could not and
# Looks ridiculous as it dominates the entire article
# takes advantage of this discussion - editors here who believe this shouldnt be included at all - it seems they have allowed a compromise, but this new section abuses that allowance
I am placing this here to see if there is strong objection, otherwise this addition should be reversed  Glen  01:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Leave the entire script on the talk page until a consensus.  I typed it up from the video as close as I could get.  It is better than some of the other transcripts.  --Kalmia 01:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, sorry, better it be taken down than left up. As caz pointed out, it really "dominates the article" and doesn't really add anything. Anyway, if we decide to put it back in it should be trivial to dig it up from the diffs. — NRen2k5 16:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe Wikisource it if you can't agree to put it in the article.--Kalmia 01:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Including the entire transcript 

message: There should be a mentioning of referring to African-Americans as quote "Afro" Americans...its only right to fathom the situation.
I think there should be some reference to Richards' appearance on David Letterman's show. At times, it appeared somewhat incoherent (some in the audience thought it was a joke at first, with some awkward pauses in Richards' on-camera address, and his use of the obsolete term "Afro-Americans" at one instance), with references to Hurricane Katrina, "black/white tension" and other observations about society.
Jerry Seinfeld (who arranged Richards' appearance) noted Richards' actions at the comedy club were inexcusable but that "[Richards] deserved an opportunity to apologize." By the end of Richards' address, he sounded more coherent, and contrite, and drew applause from the Letterman crowd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.78.40.194 (talk • contribs)  05:10, 21 November 2006
::First, was Jerry Seinfeld actually scheduled to appear on the Letterman show way in advance of the Richards incident or was this a hastily arranged appearance to prevent any long term effect to the sale of Jerry Seinfeld's DVD sales?
::Second, consider that if Richards didn't get Hollywood helping him to get out of this mess, a lot of people stand to lose a lot of money if some Black leader like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or the NAACP decide to boycott Richards and anything to which he is associated. I believe a new season of Seinfeld has just been released on DVD and with the Holiday season upon us, this would be the worst time for something like this to happen. Enter: The Damage Control Spin Doctors!!
::Third, what Richards said, and his pathetic apology that included referring to African-Americans as "Afro-Americans" (Does this guy even know what century we are in?) and recalling "Hurricaine Katrina", was a thousand times worse than the couple of drunken stupid comments made by Mel Gibson. Yet, Hollywood is rallying to Richards defense while it horrifically attacked Mel Gibson in an effort that appeared to be designed to destroy him. Why the difference in the two responses from Hollywood? There's more than one reason but the main reason appears to be money. Jtpaladin 20:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Though Seinfeld was already scheduled to appear on Letterman, this and other points you bring up have nothing to do with making this article better. This discussion page is for improving the article, not discussing Richards or the motivations behind the subsequent events. If a published source makes the above speculation/comments and you have a citation, we can discuss including them. Jokestress 20:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary, this discussion and the points I made are all relevant to the article on Michael Richards. This incident will be a major issue in his life so discussing the relevant details are pertinent. I think we need to explore if and how Richards is able to avoid having his career ruined if in fact Hollywood insiders are pulling strings to keep him from ruining the "Seinfeld revenue stream". Also, can you please post a source that shows that Jerry Seinfeld was scheduled in advance of Richards outburst to appear on the Letterman show? It seems quite coincidental that Jerry appears at the exact moment that he's needed to intervene in this matter to prevent revenue losses. Jtpaladin 20:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is coincidental - Seinfeld was on Letterman to promote the 7th season of Seinfeld, which was being released the very next day. --LeCorrector 00:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Just so you know, I added this to the last sentence of the Letterman paragraph. I think it was quite notable; otherwise, it sounds as if Richards made his outburst, left the stage, and didn't issue any sort of apology until days later on Letterman.
Richards also stated that he returned to the stage to apologize but, by that time, most of the audience had already left. Cale 04:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letterman appearance 

message: While the recent edits say he was permanently, many other articles state things like: "Richards did appear at the club Saturday, without incident, but that was because he had told the club he intended to apologize, according to a Laugh Factory statement Monday." This to me would indicate he's allowed to perform on there on the condition that he apologize, which he has. Given that these two articles seem contradictory, I think any info. on his banning should be removed until it's cleared up if it really is in effect. caz | speak 06:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a reliable source, but Laugh Factory issued a statement on their site that says "We have made it clear that Mr. Richards is no longer welcomed here."  Jokestress 06:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh... how is information about The Laugh Factory from a press release from The Laugh Factory unreliable? --Savethemooses 06:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it's clearly a temporary blurb on their site that will be removed in time and won't be verifiable. See this. I'm sure it will be quoted in a reliable source soon. Jokestress 07:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is ridiculous.  Of course a press release is verifiable.  Why wouldn't be?  Because it's going to be deleted after some time from the internet?  Wikipedia cites all sorts of things on the internet that get deleted, that's one of the main reasons that we use cite.php and link to archive.org.  Just about every single news article on the web will be deleted at some point or another.  To take your logic to its extreme conclusion, books shouldn't be cited because they go out of print eventually.  Wikipedia guidelines are clear: cite online sources, prefereably with cite.php.  If the link is dead, look for an archived version.  If you can't find it archived, make note of when it was pulled offline.  --Descendall 05:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banned? 

message: I moved these here for discussion:
:Kenny Kramer commented that Richards "had a tantrum. Michael is not racist; he is just not a very streetwise performer". Comedian George Lopez said he believed the reason for the outburst was Richards' inexperience in stand-up comedy. "...you have an actor who is trying to be a comedian who doesn't know what to do when an audience is disruptive.... He's an actor whose show has been off the air, he shouldn't ever be on a stand-up gig."Elber, Lynn."Richard Has Angry Outburst at Club." phillyBurbs.com. November 20, 2006. Retrieved on 2006-11-21. Hollywood publicist Michael Levine, commenting that comics often deal with hecklers without becoming unglued, added, "I've never seen anything like this in my life.... I think it's a career ruiner for him. ... It's going to be a long road back for him, if at all."Elber. phillyBurbs.com.
::It may not be very long at all, if the notion of "any publicity is good" holds.  Some people I have talked to believe that agents put fading stars up to do outrageous things just to keep their faces in front of the public eye and ear.MWS 18:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your argument is a tautology. If we just arbitrarily "accept" that the incident deserves a "major presence" here, we're helping to create a self-fulfilling prophecy and making it into a bigger deal than it is. While Richards' rant was awful, it's not even close to deserving an essay-length section. wikipediatrix 17:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not essay-length, but I don't think there's a rationale for cutting out the above. As to how big the incident is or isn't, I guess we have to decide that by consensus. Pablosecca 05:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments by others 

message: Why is the paragraph about Richards being banned from the Laugh Factory with a supporting link keep getting removed?? Can someone please explain! I am getting really annoyed that pertinent information is being removed. Misterrick 17:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Probably because, as you just said yourself: it's a paragraph. It doesn't take an entire paragraph to state that he's banned. Reduce it to a simple sentence and I would support its inclusion. Some editors here are very concerned about the undue weight this incident is being given. wikipediatrix 17:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The article states that Richards was banned becaue he didn't apologize during his preformance the following night.  The source given for that absolutely does no confirm that he was banned after the second night.  When wikipedia is presented with two contradictory sources, the correct thing to do is to mention both of them.  I'm going to edit the article to do that.  --Descendall 05:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laugh Factory Banning 

message: Monk didn't move from ABC to USA. It was always a USA show, they just aired repeats on ABC in season one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evil sausage (talk • contribs) 
:Monk was developed at ABC and moved to USA. See Battaglio, Stephen (August 16, 2002). 'Monk': ABC loss was cable's gain. New York Daily News Jokestress 21:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Incorrect Monk Info

message: Um, the only reference for this statement seems to be a local newspaper article which relies entirely on quotes from anonymous sources for this claim. That plus the fact that this is an article which also leans heavily on Wikipedia as a source for the most of their bio profile of Kramer suggests that isn't a source we should be using as a reference for such a big claim. Bwithh 21:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the claim and the reference, as per WP:BLP - I couldn't find any reliable sources on this claim - just a lot of breathless gossipmongering on blogs based on the one local newspaper article; modifying to reflect official statements by PR spokesman. Bwithh 21:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense, we're supposed to present both points of view per WP:NPOV. Martin Lewis at The Huffington Post says the Jewish Journal's article is "well referenced", which trumps any claim by Wikipedia editors that it's not reliable. Anyway, the bottom line, I can't see any version of this article that doesn't cite the Jewish Journal's article. If you disagree, please get a request for comment or something of that line in here, I'm certainly not backing down. Remember, a publicist is a public relations person who is supposed to do damage control. Publishing their POV when it's challenged is not NPOV. Wikipedia isn't a fairground for Richards' publicist to say whatever he wants. Mad Jack 22:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I saw that Huffington Post blog comment - "well referenced" means "anonymous sources plus Wikipedia" to Martin Lewis apparently. This is frankly, laughable. And yes, I know a public relations spokesman is. WP:NPOV shouldn't apply to obscure rumours - there's nothing to back this claim up reliably - read WP:BLP. And furthermore, I deliberately rewrote the line to emphasize that the PR guy was claiming this. I'll add the Jewish Journal comment as an unconfirmed rumour for now, but it's not acceptable to simply assume that the PR guy is lying and that the local newspaper gossipmongers have got the facts at this point - particularly as noone in the mainstream media has picked this up so far (as of time of writing, there are 3 hits on google news for "michael richards" and "not jewish" - 1 hit for the jewish journal article, 1 hit for a slightly reworded reprint of the jewish journal article in an aussie jewish online news site, and 1 hit for the huffington post.  Bwithh 23:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yeah, btw, I posted about this a few days ago over at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. But of course, no one reponded, because no one cares about this except people who want to make the point that Richards is Jewish and people who want to make the point that he is not, I guess. Mad Jack 22:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Please explain how the Jewish journal is a reliable source, especially when its astounding claim hasn't been picked up by mainstream media sources. Bwithh 23:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I attempted to write a compromise solution that presented both sides most clearly, but since it was rejected out of hand, I'm now tagging the article as having an NPOV problem for excessive reliance on an unreliable source. Assessing the source as unreliable is NOT original research, please see WP:BLP Bwithh 23:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: the Jewish Journal claim was published on the 21st. As of this time of writing, it is now coming to the end of the 24th, and despite much blog gossipmongering, NOONE in the mainstream media has reported this huge claim, ] Bwithh 23:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks to me like we have no solid evidence at present regarding Richards' religion. A statement by a publicist and an article in a Jewish newspaper are not enough to go on. The best we can do is treat them equally for the time being. Note that going back to the Seinfeld days, there are plenty of sources regarding the Jewishness of the other cast members, but nothing on Richards--JJay 00:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be fine with the article presenting both claims as claims (and stating the source of the claims in the main body of the text), without suggesting either is false Bwithh 00:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: That's exactly the way it should be handled for the time being. --JJay 03:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't agree totally with your wording, which doesnt mention that the Journal's sources are anonymous and states its claim as fact. I don't see what the AP news story has to do with the lack of google news hits for Michael Richards not being Jewish (I mean, how to explain this? Mainstream reporters don't read blogs? No, it points to a lack of confidence in the Jewish Journal's unsourced claim. In comparison, the AP news story IS sourced journalism from a major agency ) Reputable sources do not guarantee all articles from them are reliable. Also, Martin Lewis's article says he is primarily a humourist, music journalist, and marketing consultant - and Huffingtonpost is a blog without proper factchecking procedures. Bwithh 08:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of the outcome of this, I think at the moment it should be culled off from early life and placed entirely under the "Anti-semitic incident section". The only info here related to early life is that he was raised Catholic, and since that seems to be in dispute as well it should go from that section entirely. (The publicist's claim is that Richards "IS Jewish", not that he was raised Jewish or his parents were or anything that would be part of early life). I don't mind if my bit reads "citing ANNONYMOUS sources familiar...". However, I don't see what "claim as fact" would do. Isn't every claim "claim as fact"? I.e. the publicist's claim. What do you mean by Google hits for "Martin Richards not being Jewish"? How often do you see Google hits for someone NOT being something as opposed to being it? And what do you mean by Google? In terms of articles published before November 20, none mention his background. The Journal published their article on the 21st. The publicist made his claim on the 22nd and this claim was repeated in the AP story that passed around through 300 or so newspapers across the country. Nothing points to a "lack of confidence" in the Jewish Journal's claim because no one has commented on it! A newspaper publishing an AP story isn't going to verify if the information in that AP story has been disputed and then write a whole article as to what's going on there. Being Jewish or not Jewish is not a huge claim by any means. The only source that comments on the Jewish Journal - Lewis - takes the Journal's word over the publicist's. As for "anonymous sources", btw - a lot of sources for a lot of newspapers are anonymous, so what? Anyway, going back to what I was saying before, are you OK with removing all bits of religion/ethnicity from early life, and putting in the version I wrote above (with "anonymous" added in if you think it adds something) Mad Jack 08:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The following part of the article "In November 2006, a claim based on anonymous sources was made by the Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles that Richards is "not Jewish" and was raised as a Catholic" is complete nonsense and should immidiately be removed, its source is proven to be unreliable and false. Even the wording is ridiculous, someones ethnic origin is not something, you claim based on anonymous sources, its fact and the religion has nothing to do with it. It has to do with your parents ethnicity and its irrelevant if you were raised, atheist, catholit, muslim whatever. Also the article has nothing to do with his early life, november 2006 was not his early life, last time i checked. Geza 09:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree the whole bit doesn't belong in early life, however it certainly should not be removed from the article. Especially since it seems Richards' parents, or at least mother's, ethnicity, as you said, is not Jewish. As for "anonymous sources", one is a director who has known Richards, and who I would take to be more reliable than a publicist who has just been hired to defend Richards against claims of Anti-Semitism and racism. I don't know what "its source is proven to be unreliable and false" is supposed to mean, but Martin Lewis disagrees with you, and that's good enough for me. Mad Jack 09:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've cut it out of early life .... let's see if the version under the controversy section pleases anyone.... Mad Jack 09:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  Jack, Since you asked, it means, that the quoted article in the Journal contains: "A biography of him on the Wikipedia web site lists no religion, but does say Richards is very involved in the Masons."  You simply cannot use a source, which uses wikipedia as a source, its circular. Based on that quite alone i think the JJ is disqualified as a reliable source as per wikipedia policy. More so being catholic or raised as a catholic has nothing to do with this matter, whereas the article clearly treats it as if the question was about judaism, only religion, and being raised catholic excludes the possibility of jewish origin. Geza 09:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't understand what you're talking about. You'd be surprised that a large amount of media sources use Wikipedia as a source. Unlike those sources, this one 1. explicitly mentions that it does, which some of these others don't and 2. explicitly says that the Wikipedia profile listed no religion! So the information taken from Wikipedia in this case has no relevance to this discussion whatsoever. The information we're taking is that he is not Jewish and that he was raised Catholic, and they explicitly do not cite Wikipedia for that. Mad Jack 17:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Uh what? a PR person is going to communicate with their client, especially in an emergency. Bwithh 05:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: More CYA backtracking: Lewis replaces "But if Howard Rubenstein is to represent his client well - he should at least be accurate about his client's religion." with "But given the many conflicting stories currently abounding on the internet - it would be good to get clarity about what faith Michael Richards was raised in." Bwithh 05:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. Then our version currently reflects the confusion over the issue, since it is evident such confusion is present and needs to be reflected in the article, if we're getting into the issue at all. Mad Jack 05:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunno if he's a reliable source, but comedian Paul Mooney also said Richards isn't Jewish...  Mad Jack 05:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since that paper was using wikipedia as a source, maybe they are backtracking due to the "confusion" here. That amounts to a vicious cycle. Wahkeenah 06:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gosh, can we can the whole "using Wikipedia as a source thing" here? I'm sure I don't have to tell you for the fifth time that the Journal did not use Wikipedia as a source for A. Richards not being Jewish or B. Richards being raised Catholic, and these are the only pieces of information we are using the Journal for. What they did use Wikipedia for were the bio details that we still have up and that have nothing to do with this discussion. But, again, you already know that, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up. I agree that "Using Wikipedia as a source" is an absolutely terrific argument, but I'm sure you realize as well as I do that the information they were using Wikipedia for is not the information we're discussing right now. Mad Jack 06:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're taking on faith that they reported their source utilization correctly. In any case, it would be better for this site to not be at the forefront of ongoing news stories, since wikipedia is not supposed to be an "original" source. Wahkeenah 06:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we know for a fact that, unlike other sources, they admitted that they took information for Wikipedia, and they did. They said that they took the information we are discussing from a director who has known Richards and from other sources close to Richards. If they were honest about their Wikipedia info-taking, why would you think they wouldn't be honest about their other sources? And, if you answer that question, we're getting into the area of original research and analyzing and nitpicking where sources may or may not have gotten info from. The LA Jewish Journal passes WP:RS as a peer-edited newspaper (not to mention it's gotten the most journalistic awards for a certain category), and besides, we're not even reporting what they said as fact, but simply that they said it, which IS fact. As for ongoing news stories, we certainly can't stop sources from using Wikipedia as an information news resource. However, it's nice when they admit they do, like the Journal, and not so nice when they do but don't admit it, like a few others I have seen (unrelated to this case). Mad Jack 06:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: So why bother having it at all, then? We can just put "It it unconfirmed if Richards himself is Jewish or not" until we hear from a more reliable source. --Captain Cornflake 22:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't that what we have right now, in so many words? "It is unconfirmed" is kind of original research. Saying one source says yes and the other  says no basically amounts to that anyway, doesn't it? Mad Jack 22:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Too many words. Maybe just 'it is disputed' with the [1] and [2] afterwards linking to the sources. --Captain Cornflake 22:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean something like - first mentioning the anti-Semitic incident - and then stating "It is disputed whether Richards himself is Jewish"? Sure, I guess you should put that in if you want to, I won't object. Don't know about anyone else, but I guess it's worth a shot. Mad Jack 22:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it will be interesting to see how many news articles elsewhere start saying "it is disputed whether Richards himself is Jewish." Then, at least, we might get an answer. Wahkeenah 22:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish Journal column of Nov 21, 2006, on Michael Richards:  reiteration and additional discussion

message: I think the use of the word racist in the links section in regards to Richards' comments biases any potential reader. We can not know Richards' intention when he made the comments and addressing the marks as such seems to skew judgement on them for their own merit, and on his later apology. The references should be changed to Laughing Stock comments, in line with the section in the article. caz | speak 21:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have to agree as well. It takes the kind of "dull mind" Emerson spoke of to not understand that sometimes, in order to properly hurt someone that we want to hurt, one often has to escalate to saying meta-horrible things. We have no idea whether Richards is a racist or not, but we DO know he said some extremely racist things. wikipediatrix 21:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the Term Racist 

message: As a standard practice, many editors automatically revert external links to blogs, youtube, and so forth per WP:EL & WP:SPAM. Remember, Wikipedia is not a link farm. Given the attention this article has received, I didn't want to make any changes without discussion. Both of these links are under External Links.
*Re the YouTube link, note that the link to TMZ.com source (currently reference #12) has a link to the video and TMZ.com is the original source of the release.
*The tvguide.com link is A Blog About Michael Richard's Racist Rant -- there's no reason to link to every blog (or any blogs) regarding the incident. They are not encyclopedic sources and, as said above, WP is not a link farm.
What do others think? --Strom 22:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  WP:EL is quite clear about this. Remove 'em. wikipediatrix 22:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Chop, chop... I've just added some links about the lynching angle... I suppose those could be trimmed to two or three as well (to say just the USA Today, MSNBC, and Canadian Broadcasting Corporation links). (→Netscott) 22:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. TMZ footage is linked in the notes. Leave IMDb external link (and maybe Yahoo Movies). Jokestress 22:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a link to the actual incident caught on film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlrOx6GCFA (WARNING! LANGUAGE!).. Would that be worthy of being linked to at the bottom? Karozoa 12:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  WP:EL is not clear on this at all. There is no proscription on YouTube with good reason given that CBS, NBC and numerous other major media companies are hosting material with YouTube through partnership agreements. I've restored the link to an excerpt of the Richards apology that was released by CBS. --JJay 01:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed removal of YouTube and Blog links 

message: I've seen no source saying the hecklers were from Africa. Black people is a more appropriate link. BabuBhatt 22:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An African-American doesn't have to be from Africa to be that. They have to have African roots and be American. Black implies African roots as well. Black would only be approporate since we don't know if they are from America. Mick65 01:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I do understand why editors would use African American vs. black, the fact is for those outside of the U.S. who are less than familiar with the African American term, they will likely picture an African immigrant newly arrived in the U.S. when this is almost assuredly not the case in this instance. (→Netscott) 01:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mick, i disagree with you, but besides that point Wikipedia should only include sourced material and the source says Heckle Man is black. BabuBhatt 01:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Mick has it right. It's more PC to refer to someone as Black. We don't actually know if the man is American. Sad moments like these can been seen when people refer to Blacks in the UK as African Americans. Yanksox 15:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How does that make Mick "right"? He was pulling for African-American. BabuBhatt 15:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mick was saying that we don't know if the men heckling Richards were American or not. (→Netscott) 15:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the term "African-American" is presumptuous and unclear in that it implies an immigrant from Africa to America, as opposed to a native American or immigrant from another country. Removing it.
I was the original editor who substitiuted African American for Black. I did this because the term African American is the politically correct term for negroids in the United States. Because this is already a racially charged incident, I saw no reason to describe the heckler as "black". This adjective is sometimes seen as objectionable in the USA because it describes skin color, not ethnic identity. For this reason, I saw the use of the adjective black - as a bit inflamatory in the context of the article. Cleo123 05:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm pretty sure the word "black" is only seen as objectionable when it's used as a noun, similar to the word "gay". In any case, using the obsolete anthropological term "negroid" is almost certainly politically incorrect (and possibly inflammatory).24.11.177.133 06:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: During the last few decades, the shifting sands of what the politically-correct label is for dark-skinned African-ancestored Americans has become a subject of both exasperation and ridicule by light-skinned European-ancestored Americans. Wahkeenah 16:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: So sure of yourself you can't even sign your mistaken comment, eh? The difference between the two terms is one indicates the person is an American whose family is from Africa. Not all black people are Americans. BabuBhatt 18:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Black v. African-American

message: Nothing more need be said than:
:The Laugh Factory has since stated Richards is no longer welcome at the venue.  Laugh Factory statement from laughfactory.com
Anyone disagree?  Glen  05:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, it was changed next edit. However, you are making assumptions - and inserting words into their mouths. - read the statement  - no mention of a promise merely an "intention"  Glen  05:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banning 

message: The coverage of this incident is disproportionate compared to everything else in the article.  And do we really need half a dozen references saying the same thing?Djedi 13:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that the coverage of this event has not died down (see CNN's video section) and being that he had to go on national television to apologize about his behavior, I don't think the current size of this section of the article on him is disproportionate. There were other editors who previously were adding an entire transcript from the event to the article and in those cases I totally agreed with what you are saying here. (→Netscott) 13:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it really necessary to have five links talking about what Richards said?  The fact that is said it is not disputed - there is no need for it. Djedi 15:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just cut down the lynching refs. There were five there originally due to the fact that other editors were disputing the lynching aspect of what he said. (→Netscott) 15:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: * I disagree. Needs to be covered extensively in the article or possibly spun out to a new article. This is the biggest thing Richards has done since Seinfeld. It has been covered worldwide. Our job is to report that to the fullest extent possible. --JJay 20:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laugh Factory section needs to be cut down 

message: Why does the page say what it says at the top and yet this clearly newly registered user had his way with the article? BabuBhatt 15:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is possible that the User:Curtisaallen account was registered some time ago but never utilized till today. When such accounts are layed away for nefarious purposes they are usually known as sleeper account on Wikipedia. (→Netscott) 16:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It really took me awhile to find this out but a look at the creation log shows he registered 22:23, 13 November 2006.--John Lake 09:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What would it require for the program to be changed so that users with no edits so far would be treated as if they were brand-new? Wahkeenah 16:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, that's not a bad idea. My recommendation is to post it to: Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). (→Netscott) 16:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I got a quick answer, and I expect he's right: "I'm not entirely certain that the change would be that helpful. Vandals who use sleeper accounts have already shown some degree of sophistication. All it'd mean is that they'd have to make a single superfluous edit before laying the account to rest for a while." User:GeeJo 16:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another user added the idea of requiring a minimum number of edits, maybe 100, before he would no longer be considered a "new" user. At least he'd have to work a bit for the "right" to vandalize. Wahkeenah 21:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like a no-go. I was told that, "There's no way to get an editcount directly within MediaWiki, as the number of edits is not recorded anywhere in the database (that means, there is no editcount table, or editcount field in the user database table). It can be derived through a separate expensive query, like it is done in the Toolserver, but it would be IMO too expensive to make the same query until a certain number of edits are made to the site, and the user gets the autoconfirmed flag." Wahkeenah 02:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's possible the person made the account to start articles on subjects that were deleted. Contributions to deleted articles aren't included in the list. --WikiSlasher 14:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disabled to edits

message: What did the HECKLER said that made Michael Richards so mad. Nobody is asking that question.
*Unless he directly threatened Richards in some way, it's not relevant. Heckling is an occupational hazard for standups, and as professionals they have to find a way to deal with it. Wahkeenah 16:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What does any of this have to do with the editing of the article? wikipediatrix 16:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit/conflict, From following news reports about the controversy what I've heard is that two men were talking disruptively with one of them telling the other that Richards, "wasn't funny"... and that Richards interrogated them and one of them explained to Richards that his friend was saying that he [Richards] wasn't funny. (→Netscott) 16:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It does have to do with editing the article, in that it would be helpful to present some information of what set him off. Neither his reaction nor anything else that happened suggest he was being physically threatened, but merely being ridiculed, which is the chance you take when doing standup. But there should probably be something there, so that readers will be less likely to say, "Maybe he was 'justified' in what he said," as the user at the top of this section seems to be saying. Wahkeenah 16:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The real question is 

message: the laugh factory incident is no longer a current event. Pacman 17:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeing as this is still being reported in the news and seeing how actively this article is currently being edited it is premature to remove the tag. I will not revert though. (→Netscott) 17:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Edit: Never mind, I will not revert. Although, It does seem to heavy of an issue not to be called a current event.
Evilgohan2 19:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current event tag removed

message: The phrase in the article, "...even though many African American comedians use the "N" word all the time," is a monumental example of weasel words. I don't have an account here, but I request that this phrase be deleted. The incident was so far beyond mere use of the word "nigger." 50 years ago we'd have you upside down with a fork up your ass? That's what happens when you interrupt the white man? Black people use the term "nigga" in an endearing way. Trying to equate that use with Richards' tantrum is nonsensical. The phrase I quoted above is unbecoming of Wikipedia and I request that someone delete it. 204.52.215.116 19:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasel Words

message: With the growing size of the incident page (and it will probably only grow larger), casting a disproportionate light against the rest of the article, it may be wise to create a separate article for it. Especially with the hecklers threatening to sue Richards. Trilemma 01:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is very sensible. That would correspond to what was done on the Mel Gibson article with the creation of the Mel Gibson DUI incident article. (→Netscott) 01:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it "could be dropped separately" after the "furor has gone away" then it doesn't deserve an encyclopedia article in the first place. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 03:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not necessarily. The thing about wikipedia is that it's a "living" encyclopedia, i.e. its content changes with the news, as opposed to Britannica, which is a captured-in-stone book. Wahkeenah 13:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Creation of a separate page for Laugh Factory Incident

message: A video has recently appeared of a much younger Richards appearing in a short film in blackface as a blind man with a dog. It was shown on Extra! on November 23, 2006.
Wikifried 07:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From the 1986 film Whoops Apocalypse. Richards' character Lacrobat pretends to be a blind black man named Conway Nitz III.  Jokestress 08:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Appearance in Blackface

message: What's with this page? I tried to add to a section, it took me somewhere else! And when I pressed Edit Page, the section was gone! But I saw it, its there! --66.218.19.101 19:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i'm guessing this caused your problem:
	Editing of this  by unregistered or newly registered users is currently disabled. Please  request unprotection, or create an account.
BabuBhatt 06:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Couldn't edit

message: I certainly fail to see why Richards' remarks would qualify in any way as comedy. Even if there is something like "insult comedy", which I doubt, because comedians habitually attack their public, an equally blatant and stupid insult can never be comedy. If, in fact, Richards' remarks would have been comedy, I guess no one would have complained about them. --82.135.74.252 00:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is in no position to determine what is comedy, including "insult comedy". It would be best to just write that Richards "responded" and then describe what he said. We shouldn't speculate about what his intentions or state of mind were during the incident. Rhobite 05:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides which, it's evident from Richards' later apologetic statements (once he had taken his medication, or whatever) that this wasn't "insult comedy", he simply lost his professional cool and blew his stack. That doesn't preclude the possibility that, in the moment, he thought he was being "funny". Wahkeenah 05:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been removing that original research as best I can... and I encourage fellow editors to do so too if it reappears. The editor who last introduced this original research into the article has been blocked stemming from his edits in this regard. (→Netscott) 05:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Insult comedy"? 

message: An earlier version of this page lists his mother's maiden name as Nardozzi, that's a very Italian name. Well, then, why can't I list this page in the Italian American category? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Richards&oldid=89564371
Andrew Parodi 11:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:V and WP:NOR. Only information that's been stated in reliable sources can be put it in, no assumptions, even very good ones. Mad Jack 16:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Richards is also considered an Irish surname.  It would obviously be ludicrous if someone comes here and add an Irish-American category to this page just because he assumes Michael Richards father must be Irish, similarly one cannot place him in an Italian-American category just because one infers his mother must be Italian.  Not to mention as noted it's against of WP:V and WP:NOR.  If there's a legitimate, trustworthy source (and wikipedia itself cannot be used as a source; nor are the many pages out there that actually got their info from wikipedia in the first place) stating his ancestry, then there would probably be less objections. 69.115.183.11 20:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Italian American category

message: in the text of the recent controversy, we see a paragraph beginning with:
"according to the two niggers who were targeted by the outburst."" Sorry, but this is ridiculous and needs to be changed. I'm going to make an edit, and if someone feels the need to disabuse me of my rationale, or if they need further clarification of why this is prima facie unacceptable, I'd be delighted to go into more detail....
Quigonpaj 05:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: unacceptable verbiage

message: The last paragraph includes: "Fellow comedian Tom Green defended Michael Richards' racial outburst as unfortunate but not indicative of an underlying racial bias, and I think this is much to Tom Green's credit."
It must be exhausting to be an editor on Wikipedia.
: I have to disagree.  e.g. the fact that Green may or may not know Richards well at this point is likewise just your own original research, and even if verifiable it'd nevertheless be irrelevant.  This article should only be based on facts, not about presenting both sides of an argument as _there should be no argument_ on anything since facts are inarguable.  Introducing opinions (which in itself is biased as one can selectively choose to present which sources) risks the integrity of the article.  As we can see from the actions of editors like Kazahpol, there's already to much bias/using this article as a soapbox. Tendancer 20:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More juvenile verbage:

message: I am going to add the comment by Kenny Kramer, in defense of Michael Richards in saying that he wasn't a racist. I think it is important, considering Richards is most famous for his portrayal of Kramer. Stevo D 09:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kenny Kramer

message: I fail to see why this merits an entire section in the article, or even mention.
:It's in the news (please sign your comments in the future). --JJay 02:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is only in the news now (7 months after the fact?) because of the later incident at the Laugh Factory.  On it's own, this incident is not noteworthy in the least (a comic insulting a heckler in a comedy club?  Gasp!  That happens so rarely, we MUST document each and every occurance of it!), and really does not deserve mention in this article.  I fear it's inclusion will only serve to manipulate the reader's opinion of Michael for the negative.  At the very least, I suggest a "neutrality" tag be slapped on this article (or at least the section).Djedi 06:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's mildly newsworthy, but I do agree it may warrant a neutrality tag as the tone and wording of this section seems biased (and I suspect intentionally so, because after I've reworded it for clarity it was reverted by the original person who introduced it, with only comments rvv + maliciously adding a test1 to my talk page [for now I'm in no mood for childish edit wars and have given him a 3RR warning]): e.g. "The publicist Richards hired after fallout from his comments, Howard Rubenstein, confirmed the report."   Howard Rubenstein is the publicist Richards hired after the Laugh Factory incident, but this whole paragraph phrased it in such a way as if Richards hired this obviously Jewish publicist after the Jewish incident.  We do not have to side with/against Richards one way or another--and personally I do suspect him to be a prejudiced human being--but it appears in the heat of the moment many folks are forgetting about WP:NPOV and that this is an encyclopedia. Tendancer 07:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  Some editors do push the Jewish angle, and especially the Referenced article in the Jewish Journal, which cites this very wikipedia article, clearly intrested only in religion, not his origins, and should never be treated as a reliable source. Inculsion of this article is of poor taste in my opinion. Richards clearly stated thru his publicist, that he considers himself jewish. Until there is PROOF to the contrary, we should not include rumors, hearsay, and anonimous directors who 'stayed in touch' with him. Even the Journal's contains the following "article Paul Rodriquez held a press conference at the Laugh Factory, saying that Richards should know better, because the Hollywood community defended Jews against actor Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic tirades.The implication was that Richards, a Jew, should not be launching racist attacks." clearly one guy thinks hes jewish, another thinks hes not jewish and someone puts one of them into the article but not the other. And yes, this whole paragraph is borderline irrelevant, about rumors of an april incident?  Geza 09:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Michael_Richards#Jewish_Journal_column_of_Nov_21.2C_2006.2C_on_Michael_Richards:__reiteration_and_additional_discussion
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Michael_Richards#Is_Michael_Richards_Jewish.3F
Bwithh 15:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Hel-ter that's actually irrelevant here.  The merit of your opinion is not in question, but it's the fact that you feel compelled to discuss it here--the camp that's contra to your opinion is even more fervent, endlessly modifying the article without discussion to introduce their opinion/biases into the article, even if subtlely, and that's what degrading the article and causing all this discussion.  At this point I vote for all references to Richard's "Jewish-ness" or lack thereof be deleted unless something came from the horse's mouth so it'll end all this editing nonsense.  It's obviously at least 50% of the editors are treating the article not as an encyclopedia, but a soapbox for their own opinions concerning the incident. Tendancer 15:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or as a weblog. That's one major flaw with this site, which undermines its credibility. Wahkeenah 18:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: www.wikitruth.info -- what else do you have to know?  anyway, it is certainly funny those two black guys are asking for money now.  typical.
    "Typical" of whom? I think that comment may show more of your views than of the 'vocal elements'.86.140.160.250 05:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on Jews section

message: Tendancer, Geza, and Bus stop are most likely the same person. Thus far both Bus stop and Tendancer have engaged in vandalism on this page. I would suggest watching their edits closely so as to revert their vandalism ASAP. KazakhPol 19:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *There is an easy enough way to find out- Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets. I agree their comments on the talk page are not particularly constructive. --JJay 21:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Here we have a perfect example of one of the "fervent" (to put it very euphemistically) editors. From his history it's obvious he has strong bias with regard to jewish issues, and every edit he has made to the Michael Richards page has been replete with bias--e.g. saying Richard's publicist "erroneously" (where is the proof, has he read WP:V, WP:NOR?) said Richard is a Jew, then furthermore phrased the sentence in such a way to imply Richards hired Rubenstein after the Jewish incident. After dozens of folks edited his biased version (and didn't even delete it as it probably should've been), he reverted it with comments "Do not remove again". Evidently he also thinks (or just want to falsely accuse) anyone who does not think his missive is pertinent to this article is a vandal/same person. 
KazakhPol: I've already engaged you in dialogue on your talk page. To which you've ignored and continued to make reverts back your biased opinions, while making false vandalism accusations at WP contributors and vandalizing my talk page. I once again recommend you reread WP:V, WP:NOR, and especially WP:NPOV. WP:3RR may also be useful as you are on the brink of a block. Tendancer 19:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sockpuppet vandals

message: No, actually I am me, the only one. I am in cahoots with no-one else. Is it now vandalism for me to point out that the accounting of the incident at the Laugh Factory, in the Michael Richards article is biased and unbalanced? I am only pointing this out on this talk page. Isn't that what this talk page is for? Here, by the way, is the link to the reference that I tried to add to the article about 24 hours ago. If the "Jewish" speculation has a place in the article, then inclusion of a link such as this does not seem to be too far afield.
http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2006/11/25/tom_green_defends_michael_richards
Bus stop 20:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppet Vandals? No, it is just me -- no-one else. 

message: Michael Richards went on Jesse Jackson's radio show to try to "face the music" I think. I'm not sure how I think it went for him, but maybe in the interest of NPOV a link to http://www.keephopealiveradio.com/ where they have archived the audio would be useful to add to this page.BHFeller 18:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Richards on Jesse Jackson's radio show 

message: I know this isnt a forum but if you search KKKramer it redirects you here H.E. Pennypacker 01:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the heads up... I've tagged that redirect for deletion. (→Netscott) 01:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted the redirect, as it was clearly vandalism and NPOV, but now we're left with an ugly blank page. Still, the main problem is gone. --Captain Cornflake 04:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not that this matters... 

message: I really don't see why anyone is concerned whether Michael Richards is Jewish or not. If Wikipedia aspires to be an encyclopedia there is no place for rumor mongering. I have removed most of my previous posts on this talk page because I was unfocused until now. The entirety of the November 17 incident at the Laugh Factory comes down to the cell phone video of his rant. A Wikipedia article should not be speculating about alleged anti-Semitic sentiments perhaps expressed months prior to this incident. It is irrelevant whether Michael Richards is Jewish or not, and if the editors at Wikipedia don't know how to write a focused article, they should let other people do so. The approximately three times I tried to alter the section on Michael Richards' "Jewish" identity, my changes were removed and reverted to it's previous state. It is perfectly obvious to me that Wikipedia wants to disparage Michael Richards to the greatest extent possible. That is not hard to do, given the raw material at hand, in the cell phone video of the Laugh Factory on November 17. But the end result of the inclusion of the "Jewish" rumor mongering is that Wikipedia debases it's own standing as a respectable encyclopedia.
Bus stop 07:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are we talking about here? The supposed anti-Semitic incident has been A. confirmed by Richards by publicist and B. commented on very frequently in the media thus C. definitely cementing its notability. The issue of whether Richards is Jewish (now definitively resolved) has also been very frequently brought up in the media. There's really no question that it's of encyclopedic value at this point Mad Jack 07:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rumor mongering at Wikipedia 

message: This is a link to a reenactment of the Michael Richards November 17 incident, performed on November 27: 
http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?mode=1&pmmsid=1778456.
I added it to the article, since others have already described the incident (reenactment), without a link provided to a video of it. But I consider all of this improper, especially on Wikipedia. Numerous threats have been made against Michael Richards, and Wikipedia's coverage is only fueling that. I think Michael Richards is probably mentally unstable. I do not consider him a racist or anti-Semitic. My fear is that he will at some point in the future be beaten up by somebody. And that will be for a medical condition that is beyond his control. That is why I have urged Wikipedia to handle coverage of this incident with restraint and circumspection. Bus stop 21:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is in poor taste for this "re-enactment" to be added to the article. Wikipedia should not be in the business of aiding some entertainment company trying to benefit off of Michael Richards' racial tirade. (→Netscott) 00:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to a Reenactment (Performed by Cryme Tyme)

message: I do not think Richards is a racist. Or an anti-Semite, for that matter. I think there is an underlying undiagnosed mental problem, and I am strongly opposed to seeing him persecuted for a problem that is beyond his control. That is why I strongly feel that the coverage of the incident should be confined to the examination of the video footage of the one incident at the Laugh Factory on November 17. 
My sympathies are very much with Michael Richards. I see this as a medical incident, not a racial incident at all. I think all speculation on Wikipedia's page about an anti-Semitic incident that might have taken place months earlier is entirely out of place. 
I think the paragraph titled "Remarks About Jews" should be entirely omitted. It only adds fuel to the fire that brands Michael Richards as a bigot. The graphic language quoted in that paragraph is unnecessarily inflammatory, especially as this is being only now presented, months after the supposed date of occurrence.   Bus stop 22:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * The comments on Jews are part of the story and again have received world-wide news attention. Thay are now part of Richards' bio. Your "sympathies" may be with Richards, as you state above, but we do not edit wikipedia articles on that basis. --JJay 01:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: * It doesn't matter when it came to light and I haven't seen any "florid detail or fanfare". And I fail to see how you can challenge the factuality of the event since it has been confirmed by Richards and his spokesman. Hence the event is not alleged, but is verified per WP:V and WP:RS. Nothing you can say can change that. Please don't let your "sympathies" get in the way of the truth. --JJay 02:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Well you have repeatedly changed the factuality of the incident by calling it "alleged", both here and in your article edits. The significance of the event is that it has received extensive news coverage around the world. That is not my argument or opinion- it is a fact. Therefore, your speculation about what other comics say on stage really doesn't matter, until what they say creates the same kind of furor as Richards. I'm going to remind you, again, that we build articles here based on sources, not theories or personal challenges or sympathies or users' interpretation of meaning. Find some valid sources that support your ideas and add those to the article. I think the event deserves the coverage in the article. I would strongly suggest that you stop removing sourced sections of the article. --JJay 03:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: * Neither do you. But even you have admitted that there is a: tide of opinion that is presently heaping maximal blame on Michael Richards for all manner of hate. Our article reflects that tide of opinion - not the sympathies of individual users - through press reports and other sources. Mr. Richards and his spokesman have apologized to that tide of opinion. Again, you need to stop letting your personal bias in favor of Richards interfere with editing this article.--JJay 12:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: *My personal bias does not interfere with the article that I advocate for. I mentioned my personal opinion a few days ago, more or less in the interest of full disclosure. I think this is the third time you are pointing out my personal opinion, even though I've made no further mention of my personal opinion. Please stick to the facts, and the issues at hand. "The tide of opinion" is only the most vocal element. You only hear the opinions that are expressed. Yet I think you have even endeavored to suppress those few opinions that take a more moderate approach to addressing the concerns of Michael Richards' November 27 outburst. I am specifically referring to the numerous times you have taken down my mention of and link to the Tom Green article. Tom Green offers a moderate approach to being critical of these events. He is a fellow comedian. He is familiar with the act of standing on a stage and trying to make people laugh, sometimes when people are heckling you. Unfortunately you seem to want to drown out even the voice of Tom Green. Tom Green also has an opinion to express. Why do you seemingly only want to support the tide of opinion that wishes to heap "maximal blame" on Michael Richards for "all manner of hate?" Is there some reason that you want to support the most vocal element of opinion to be found out there, and suppress the minority opinion, which can be found, if only one listens?Bus stop 17:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I think maybe the whole thing should be put under a heading of November 2006 alleged racist incident, then the whole thing can be dealt with in that- the Jew thing only came out as a result of the Laugh Factory incident from a couple of attention seekers and he clearly isn't anti-semitic unless he cunningly managed to conceal his anti-semitic rage all the time he was on Seinfeld. I personally don't think he is a racist towards black people but he clearly doesn't know (or didn't know) that he had really stepped over the comedic red line with the lynching remark as it was pretty much the equivalent of making a joke about Jews being gassed in the holocaust. I'd guess the problem is that he doesn't mix with black people so he doesn't really have an understanding and empathy of what is going too far as he would do with Jews, but hey, that would probably apply to most of white America. Right angle 00:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to clarify, I don't think that most of white America would think it's acceptable or humerous to make jokes about lynching black people, just that most of white America doesn't mix too much with black communities. The thing about Richards/Kramer is his whole attraction was his outrageousness and craziness so he probably felt he had to be offensive and outrageous to fit in with that character but clearly here it just went too crazy. Right angle 00:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: * Rubinstein's claim is not supported by statements from Audience members and the club. All we can do is present the event impartially and with balance. That is now the case and Rubinstein's claim is explict in the article. Nowhere does it say that Richards "hates Jews". Your claims and endless posts here are unfounded, misleading ad growing tiresome. Stop distorting the contents of the article. --JJay 12:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: *The distortion of the article results from giving approximately equal weight to an incident which occurred less than two weeks ago, and which was caught on video, with an occurrence of more than six months ago, and of which no known visual or auditory record exists. My personal opinion is that the fact that the few (two?) eyewitnesses who have come forward with accounts of that occurrence are less than believable. I find them less than 100% credible because they failed to come forward with their account until after the November 17 incident. While other explanations can be found for this, I am reluctant to give equal weight to their account, because of the lengthy delay before they spoke up. I find the distortion to be the seemingly great weight that is given to an incident that I think more properly should be seen as something tagged on to the accounting of the incident of greater importance which occurred on November 17.Bus stop 14:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Strong agree: The remarks about jews part should not be part of the article, if there is one thing we can agree on that is, Richards is not an anti-semite, his whole life is evidence to that. If the remarks were notable enough, they would have generated some kind of attention at the time, six months ago, not just as an afterthought to this incident. I hope this is settled then and no editor tries to inject their bias into the article by bringing the part back.
*One minor change I think should be made, however, I thought I would suggest it first in light of all the editing already being constantly performed on this article.  In the Laugh Factory segment, the (") should be moved to after (he).  The way it is written is confusing because Richards is talking about himself, and then the quote starts with "he", as if he may be referring to a heckler.Joel79 23:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I think the paragraph "Remarks About Jews" should be removed. 

message: It is the conflating of racism with anti-Semitism that bothers me here. That is sloppy writing. In my opinion an encyclopedia encapsulates subjects or puts in place very explicit transitional explanations between different subjects. Clarity is what matters. Strewing lurid quotes about is just inflammatory and does not shed light on the core subject at hand. It is the cell phone video that is the key element in describing the incident at the Laugh Factory on November 17. I find the quoted matter about Jews to be particularly out of place. Certainly links can be in place leading the reader to those quotes. But explicitly strewing those particular quotes across a paragraph, out of context, is poor writing, and unprofessional. Wikipedia can do better than that.Bus stop 15:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflating racism with anti-Semitism 

message: The wording on the article has in the last day or so moved away from reports on this event and the racial angle is being toned down. Having watched the reports from the two men who were on the recieving end of his tirade they stated that they arrived lated in a group of about 20 people and that due to their number they could not help but make a bit of noise. According to what they said Richards made some comment about mexicans and blacks (I believe they said his words were something to the effect of wetbacks and niggers) making too much noise. This is what they said started them down the path towards heckling Richards. (→Netscott) 22:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *It depends on what you mean by "racial." I don't think the Black "angle" has been "toned down." I felt that the anti-Jewish rhetoric had gone way too far. There is little to no evidence Richards ever said anything of an anti-Semitic nature, except in a context that is considered normal for a comedy routine. Richards is seen saying nothing of an anti-Semitic nature on the cell phone video from the Laugh Factory on November 17. As far as I can tell, only two people came forward alleging that Richards' comedy routine in April contained anti-Semitic elements. And those two people failed to come forward with their claim of anti-Semitism in the intervening six months. One is led to wonder why didn't they make any kind of an issue of this for six months. In my opinion that time gap compromises their credibility. I consider it a serious issue to charge someone with any kind of bigotry. That is why I objected to a separate paragraph for an "anti-Semitic incident" that probably never took place. And I felt the inclusion of the (anti-Semitic) quotes was very misleading. They hardly qualified as quotes, for the reason I've already stated. And no visual or auditory record exists, to my knowledge, of the April comedy act. Also, context is very important in determining if something is innocuous or harmful. I felt that Wikipedia should be more responsible than to attribute those ugly remarks to Richards on such flimsy evidence.Bus stop 23:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not referring to the anitsemitism aspect you're referencing here but the toning down (looks like whitewashing to me) of the section on Richards' tirade. (→Netscott) 00:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: *Richards' tirade is quoted. I think the hurtful points are quoted. But I think analysis of the video is important. So, if in your analysis of the video, you see some aspect of it that is being left out, I think you might consider adding it. What particularly egregious aspect of it do you think is not covered well enough?Bus stop 00:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording getting away from facts

message: I call for capital letters starting out the words Black and White. They are names for racial groups. Not in the scientific sense, but in the personal identity sense. 
I recently changed the word "black to "Black." Why did someone revert it to "black?"
Is this not the crux of the issue? The giving of respect? Why provide coverage of the Laugh Factory Incident without learning something from it?
And, when I made that change, I left a note asking for discussion on the talk page. Is there some reason why that was too much to ask for?
Bus stop 18:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know who reverted it, but it wasn't me. I always capitalize Black and White when referring to Racial Groups. I have lower-cased words like "Hispanic" and "Asian" in response to Black and White not being capitalized, but on Wikipedia, I do not lower-case those words, as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. I say captitalize Black and White when referring to the Racial Groups and leave it at that. Acalamari 18:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Have you folks read the WP:MOS??  Wikipedia already has explicit instructions (i.e. use what a group would identify themselves with, if that's unknown then use e.g. "black people", "white people"--do not use "Blacks", "Whites") on what to do in these cases.  If you check e.g. Encyclopedia Britannica, you'll likewise notice it use "black people" in lower case.  "Black" should only be capitalized in very specific cases e.g. "Black History", "Black Americans" etc; not haphazardly to "give respect" and draw unnecessary attention/distraction from the article.Tendancer 22:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black White/black white 

message: Shriker 19:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the article now. Juror 8 04:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I didn't remove it, but I must say if I saw it I would've removed it as well.  I read the EL you guys are discussing, it's written much like an opinion piece with an extremely non-neutral POV that picks and chooses its sources.  One thing many editors still don't seem to understand is this is an article about _Michael Richards_, not people's own opinion of Michael Richards/whether they think Richards is or is not a racist/whether or not they like him/thinks he deserves a break (as this external link being discussed plainly did).  Encyclopedias consolidate facts and let them speak for themselves _without intentionally trying to influence POV_, essay/blogs present opinions to try to influence.  This particular EL clearly falls in the latter camp.  It concerns me that you're basically openly discussing your own POVs and how to work them into the article.  I have my own opinions about Richards too, but I would save them for my own blog if I kept one, I would not deem it appropriate to come here and try to shove it down the throats of others. Tendancer 19:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro-Michael Richards news article (and purge/addendum suggestions) 

message: It is disjointed. It is in argument with itself. It overemphasizes some things, underemphasizes other things. It is not neutral. It is clunky. It is inflammatory. It is petty. It is tedious to read. It doesn't present a "sweeping" enough picture of the entire significance of the event. It gets bogged down in details, which is the result of infighting. I've rewritten an extensive portion of it, put it up, and it was taken right down again, reverted to it's present state. Will everyone please take a look at what I considered to be a better presentation of the material from the time of the Laugh Factory incident? Here is the way I see it:
At the Laugh Factory, in West Hollywood, California, on November 17, 2006, a verbal altercation broke out between Michael Richards and at least two men in the audience. The two men were Black. A variety of racial epithets were hurled back and forth. It was caught on video by one of the members of the audience. The beginning of the altercation was not caught on the video. What we do see on the video is Richards resorting to the use of several racial slurs and references. He refers to the Black men in the audience as "niggers." He makes an apparent reference to the lynchings that were once commonplace in the American South. The Black men in the audience respond to Richards, calling him a "cracker-ass" and a "white boy." They ridicule him for a declining career in the entertainment business. From what is caught on the video it is clear that Richards has gone way beyond his proscribed professional demeanor. While it is not unusual in such a setting for there to be some animated banter of an adversarial sort between performer and audience, Richards' remarks seem considerably fueled by anger, and therefore not what he was hired for. Richards did not regain his composure, in fact he simply turned and walked offstage. It is generally understood that Richards' heated remarks were precipitated by some degree of heckling from the audience. It is not clearly known who did or said what. The range of opinions and speculation on this include merely the making of too much noise while ordering of drinks to outright remarks shouted to Richards. (http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/20/kramers-racist-tirade-caught-on-tape)
Richards became contrite in stages after the incident. He says he tried to find the two gentlemen later that evening in order to apologize to them, but they had already left the premises. Richards claims also to have tried to locate them over the next few days to apologize to them, also unsuccessfully. On November 20 Michael Richards appeared on the David Letterman Show. Jerry Seinfeld was a guest. Richards's presence was by satellite. Richards apologized. Richards tried to explain that he was only trying to be outrageous. And Richards claimed that despite the superficial meaning of the racial epithets that he used, he was not a racist at heart. (http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=242631>1=7703)
The two Black men are seeking legal redress for the verbal assault that they had to endure at the Laugh Factory. They have hired attorney Gloria Allred to represent them. Monetary compensation is reportedly being sought. (http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/157418,CST-FTR-kramer02.article)
The incident has sparked a good deal of discussion about race relations in the USA. An important question concerns whether or not Michael Richards is racist. It is probably not a question that can be answered. There are passionate supporters taking up both sides of the argument. Clearly the overt meaning of the things he said constitute hate speech. But on the other hand, Richards has a history of working with African-Americans. His own show, The Michael Richards Show, had several African-Americans in the cast. And even in the earlier Seinfeld Show, Richards' character (Kramer) is seen in relation to an attorney who happens to be Black, in two episodes of that show. (http://celebs.electronicnewsnetwork.com/michael-richards/)''
''
:This version is downplaying Richards' role in the affair. According the the two men whom he slurred racially the beginning of the affair commenced with Richards making racists comments in response to  noise that the two men's group of 20 was making when they arrived late. Also, it is not "Black" but black... please cease reverting this. (→Netscott) 06:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to make such massive changes to the article then I suggest you include what the two men have reported themselves. I doubt they would have gone on national television and lied about such pertinent details as to Richards responding to the noise their group made (particularly when there were so many other witnesses there who saw what happened). The way your version is, it's downplaying Richards' verbal attack by excluding how it all began. (→Netscott) 06:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm reading it again and your version is soooooo wrong on so many levels.... the whole Richards was "resorting" to racial slurring, like what he didn't have another option?.... so he had to work with all that he had left, which was a racist attack?... give me a break. I'm going to read it closer but your version is chock full of such downplaying nonsense. (→Netscott) 06:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article as it stands is not very good. 

message: Is there any particular reason why this article is so obviously slanted in support of Richards? Not saying the article should lambast the man, but it doesn't properly quote his tirade, making it seem as if his outburst was limited to the lynching comment and a few repetitions of the racial slur. He screamed the word several times over, and only after some time had elapsed did the hecklers respond with any comments. Richards then continued to throw the slur at them, and the topper comment about "that's what happens when you interrupt the white man."
Also, besides the laundry list of celebs who back and support Richards, is it possible to mention the media figures who didnt quite approve of the outburts? And the fact that the Laugh Factory is demanding Richards donate a million dollars to charity for each time he used the racial slur (I'm not sure just how "rich" he is, but that would surely put a dent in his bank account ,if not fully bankrupt him).
I've been editing Wikipedia for quite some time now, and I'm well-aware of the inherent bias towards white American interests and personalities (that's why only a very small minority have written articles on notable black figures, while the "encyclopedia" gushes over with info on white celebrities of equal or lesser importance). But this is really, really too much; an outrage and a travesty. And it shows that not only is Wikipedia an unreliable reference work (something I've know for quite some time), but that the collective efforts of its users aren't much interested in presenting ethically balanced and unbiased world views and factual information (something I've known in my heart, but didn't want to admit to myself). --FuriousFreddy 13:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm inclined to agree with what you are saying here FuriousFreddy, check the talk in the section just above what you've added here. (→Netscott) 13:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hideous bias on the "Laugh Factory" incident 

message: It has no place in the article and is clearly doing nothing but putting forth allegations which have been proven false.  Wikipedia biographies are not the place for weakly sourced, irrelevent attacks on the person. Reasonable doubt1 15:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There is no place in this article for the allegations of two people who came forward six months after a supposed incident (in April) to claim Michael Richards made anti-Semitic comments. Would they have come forward if not for the November 17 Laugh Factory incident? Why didn't they come forward with these claims at any point over the past 6 months? Where are the other people who one would assume heard the same comments? I am in favor of entirely eliminating a paragraph on "anti-Semitism" from this article. It is based on such flimsy evidence that it doesn't bear inclusion. Bus stop 16:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That smacks of censorship. The real problem is that there is no content in the paragraph, just vague generalities, impeaching by inference, in contrast to the recent fiasco, for which his words and attitude are, obviously, documented. If someone can find what was actually said 6 months ago, then it could be posted, and then could be judged by the reader directly rather than it being "filtered" by someone with their own agenda. If the actual or approximate text of what he said is not available, then I agree it's junk and should be deleted. Wahkeenah 16:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Wahkeenah -- A allegation of bigotry is a serious charge. One does not allege what one doesn't have strong evidence for. All that we have are two people who've come forward with that charge, and there has been a time gap of over six months. Please don't tell me that I am "filtering" anything for my "agenda." My agenda is to filter out unfair accusations, in this instance. I have no other agenda. I am showing the same respect for Michael Richards that I would want shown to me. That is an obligation of a responsible editor of an article for a biographical entry on Wikipedia, in my opinion. If someone wants to turn up as much "dirt" on Michael Richards as they can, they can do a search on the Internet and come up with the anti-Semitic allegation. But that allegation should not be perpetuated by inclusion in a general article about Michael Richards in an article on Wikipedia. I am also opposed to censorship. This is an instance where we weigh the good and the bad of inclusion of accusation of anti-Semitism charges against Michael Richards. And in my opinion this is not worthy of inclusion. Bus stop 16:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The allegations of Michael Richards' anti-Semitism probably wouldn't have arisen had the recent incident not happened, so I see no point in putting the anti-Semitism incident in the article. Also, Bus Stop, don't take any insults from Wahkeenah seriously; I don't, as he's been disagreeing with everything I say. Just read "The Hecklers Response." Anyway, I say remove the anti-Semitism part. If that incident was so important, why wasn't it mentioned months ago? Acalamari 16:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You misunderstand. I am not accusing you of filtering, I am suggesting that those two accusers are. If all they have to say was "he was using anti-semitic remarks", that's just their opinion, and we're supposed to somehow take it on faith. NO. If they have stated specifically what was said, as well as the context, then it's worth further consideration. Yes, such an allegation is serious, but without the actual content, it means nothing and could be removed. Wahkeenah 17:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wahkeenah, this topic was abou anti-Semitism, not the Black guys. You should have posted the part about the Black guys in "The Hecklers Response" part. Acalamari 17:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Wahkeenah 17:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Then it should be dropped from the article. Wahkeenah 19:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove the section on anti-semitism  

message: Intro (inc. source 3) says he's still a Master Freemason, yet later (referenced with source 10) the article says that he is no longer involved. When you quit being involved in freemasonry do you lose the Master Freemason title? Or is it just dormant? I was tempted to add "former" to the intro but decided it might be better ot hear from an expert here first. Nach0king 17:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro, Mason 

message: I totally agree with Netscott's last revert as the last edits NEED to be reverted.  Folks how can you say please discuss on talk page bla bla bla, and then go ahead and make this kind of monstrous edit yourself: For instance, that version stated:
"What we do see on the video is Richards resorting to the use of several racial slurs and references. He refers to the Black men in the audience as "niggers." He makes an apparent reference to the lynchings that were once commonplace in the American South. The Black men in the audience respond to Richards, calling him a "cracker-ass" and a "white boy." They ridicule him for a declining career in the entertainment business. From what is caught on the video it is clear that Richards has gone way beyond his proscribed professional demeanor. While it is not unusual in such a setting for there to be some animated banter of an adversarial sort between performer and audience."
This paragraph is horribly, terribly unencyclopedic.  It sounds like a college essay--we see use of the word "we": you should never see first-person perspective used in an encyclopedia, EVER.  Then it's replete with opinions such as 'it is clear', 'while it is not unusual'.  Also, at least a couple folks have pointed out the Manual of Style on the usage of the word "Black" (i.e., don't use it, use "black" in an encyclopedia), why do some stubbornly insist on using it?  You asked for discussion, it was discussed, proof given; and then you ignore it b/c you don't agree with it, why do you insist on discussing it then???  All of that aside, the paragraph also simply doesn't flow.  Some writers on wikipedia are better writers than others, and one needs to be careful on doing massive edits on what others have collectively created/copyedited at this stage of a "mature" article--chances are, you'll make it worse.  Tendancer 00:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive Edits 

message: Because I can't.
"According to Frank McBride and Kyle Doss, the two men targeted.........During their appearance on The Today Show, McBridge and Doss rejected Richards' apology.... [21]"
Is it McBride of McBridge? Thanks.
:It's McBride - thank you for pointing it out! It is fixed now. Nach0king 16:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: fix this spelling please

message: From the back and forth happening on this section I think it is safe to say that a complete explanation about what happened according to witness accounts reported in reputable news sources that led up to the video recorded part needs to be introduced. I'm planning on working on this is my spare time over the next week or so. In particular I think the part of the story wherein the group of 20 people showed up late and Richards made his offhanded comments needs introducing to better explain why he was being heckled. (→Netscott) 22:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've started work on this. More detail is needed though as the intro is incomplete... I've got to source the bit where the heckler said, "my friend thinks you're not funny." that saw Richards subsequently go deeper into the racial slurring. (→Netscott) 01:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "According to Frank McBride and Kyle Doss, the two men targeted by the outburst, they were not heckling but merely ordering drinks after arriving late at the comedy club. " is already in the article, do not try to duplicate this by pushing their version of the events repeatedly into the article every step of the way. Do not write an article where you repeat the hecklers statements numerous times, for POV pushing. Geza 11:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Labeling their responses as "also racially charged" is overkill and a misleading (POV) attempt to equate their comments with his vile language. If you bother to "listen" to what they were saying, you'll see that they are merely calling him a racist (and also reflecting on his manhood). Wahkeenah 11:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

text: *I don't fully agree with what you're saying here Wahkeenah. Calling someone "white boy" in the manner that was done here is certainly in the spirit of racism. (→Netscott) 14:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You've got a point. But it was also in "self defense", is nowhere near the N-word in vileness, and is arguably factual: he is white, and he behaved like a child. What I'm concerned about is the attempt to equate their comments with his to somehow let him somewhat off the hook. If he didn't say what he said, they wouldn't likely have said what they said. Now, if they said it unprovoked, that would be a different story. Wahkeenah 14:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  Fine, then edit the racially charged part out (which by the way was in almost all the earlier versions of this article, most definitely not invented by me), and leave the other parts of my edit alone, especially the redundancy of the heckler's comments. I just checked and you did that exactly, current version seems fine. Also my main concern with the racially charged or whatever part was that in my opinion his comments should be 'explained' a bit as most people outside of the US has no idea that the term 'cracker' was intended as a racist slur. I think some people can have the impression that the heckler merely tried to call Richards stupid or something like that, but he tried to insult him racially back. Geza 12:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know you didn't add it originally. There have been so many back-and-forth edits, I don't know who did. But the term "cracker" is explained via a link, and in the context used, it's a way of equating Richards to a stereotyped white southern racist, which exactly describes his behavior. I also realized their comments were stated twice in the same paragraph, which did seem like overkill for sure. It might have been written that way to add some more links, but if so, someone can do it in a less-redundant way. Wahkeenah 12:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Which Netscott just did, and it looks pretty good now, as it summarizes the entire incident in a paragraph. The one thing possibly missing is Richards' detailed account of what led up to it, as opposed to his vague, general comments on Letterman... if he even knows, as it seems like he went "temporarily insane" or something. Wahkeenah 12:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point there is a key missing part that needs citing and that is what Kyle Doss said that in effect was the "final straw" that sent Richards into the tirade. I'm talking about the "My friend thinks you're not funny." line. (→Netscott) 12:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The notion that having Kyle Doss' explanation of the lead up to the event where it is in the article is "POV pushing" is really nonsense when we consider that the section essentially leads off with describing Richards' behavior with his own word, "rage". Such wording tends to be sympathetic towards his role in the event. (→Netscott) 13:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not quite sure what you're driving at, but the paragraph looks pretty good now, with your fine-tuning of it. Wahkeenah 13:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Describing Richards' tirade as "rage" is sympathetic to him because people generally do things that they wouldn't logically (with thought) do. Rage is an irrational state of anger. (→Netscott) 13:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A complete explanation of the Laugh factory event

message: Bus stop, please source the part about laughing and its significance. The way you've been trying to enter the text about this into the article has just been wrong.  Yes there was laughing intially and I'm inclined to say that people initially thought that this was part of the act (and expected a punch line afterwards, which never came) but without a reliable source talking about this being pertinent to the wider story then we're back to square one and its irrelevance (which I still think is the case personally) as original research. If we read the transcript from The Situation Room the laughing is specified in a closed captioning way "[LAUGHING]" (but not further expanded upon). Can you please find sources talking about this aspect with some relevance? Thanks. (→Netscott) 19:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again no source mentioning it and its significance = irrelevant in the article. (→Netscott) 20:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sorry, that suggestion doesn't pass the ridiculous test. You cannot link "significance" to lack of source. That's completely absurd. It sounds to me like you are just shying away from the real discussion here. I don't particularly agree with where Bus stop is heading, but your argument seems ridiculous in the extreme. Consequently, I will provide you with a cite, and according to your position, that should be sufficient for inclusion of the edit. Bulbous 21:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "While there is some chuckling in the audience throughout the outburst, someone can be heard gasping "Oh my God" and various people "ooh" after Richards uses the n-word". There. Now there is a reliable third-party cite that is beyond your critique. Of course, that a cite would be found was never in doubt. A lot of our valuable time has been wasted on this "sourcing" nonsense. Now that the edit has been sourced, please turn your attention to discussion the relevance of the comments, where this discussion should have been taken in the first place. Bulbous 21:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bulbous, your source is not mentioning the significance of the "chuckling" there's still no established relevance to this article. (→Netscott) 05:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're not already aware of it you might want to peruse, This NOT policy. Specifically the part where it says, "That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia."... again, where's the relevance? (→Netscott) 05:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't personally think there is any relevance. I never did. People could have been laughing because they thought it was all an act, or because they were nervous or embarassed. To read into the laughter is POV. Simply reporting it as sourced is probably not; again, I don't have an opinion on this matter. All I was concerned about was the fuss over sourcing, which took all of about 30 seconds of Googling. It side-tracked everyone from the main argument, which seems to be back on track now. Bulbous 06:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Have you read any wikipedia policies or guidelines? Lack of a source is the acid test for significance here. Without a source, articles can be deleted. Without a source, information can be removed at will. Since Bus Stop can not understand how to cite material, please add that source for his edit. I would like to see the article cover every aspect of the laugh factory event, including the lead-up (i.e. Richards' earlier history of outbursts) and the aftermath. I don't care if we do 10,000 more words on it. But we can not do a proper article if everyone adds their personal take on what they saw/heard on the video. --JJay 21:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Having sourced the edit, I just now wish to see the actual relevance discussed. I don't even personally have a real position on that. My main concern was that the lack of source was drawing too much attention, especially since what was being claimed was not outrageous. Finding a source for what was included should never have proved overly difficult. Although lack of source may imply irrelevance, is the converse necessarily true? Just because a source exists, does that now mean that the point is relevant to the article? Bulbous 22:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: No, the converse is not necessarily true and I'm sure other editors hold strong opinions. My view is that it can be a valid point when sourced. Remember that we are dealing with a fairly aggressive, motivated POV pusher here (i.e. Bus Stop). He has repeatedly claimed that there were "peals of laughter" in the audience. We now have a source that mentions "some chuckling". That is quite a difference. I think a mention is fine if described as such, but also offset with sourced descriptions of the other audience reactions. --JJay 22:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not. We have one user trying to push a POV, another one making strawman arguments--ignoring the numeous comments by Netscott, myself and others already pointing out 1) it's irrelevance 2) its POV-pushing ulterior motives--as if everyone has only been focusing on the verifiability.  At this point I've given up believing their discussions are made in good faith to improve the article, seeing how much disruption was already caused through this nonsense.  Trolls are better left alone.  Tendancer 02:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What constitutes "trolling" is often highly subjective; however, there is one criterion that is fairly airtight: calling someone a troll always constitutes trolling. Bulbous 05:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I've reached your same conclusions independently. I still keep trying to get a non-weaselly answer. But I know from past experiences here that it's unlikely to work. It's basically a game they're playing. Note that that user's almost 100% focus has been on this one article. That's a nearly sure sign of a game-player. Wahkeenah 03:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yep, I was right. Wahkeenah 08:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mentioning laughing

message: Ok, I believe we can move on now. There's only one editor (Bus stop) out of several that is expressing that the laughing is somehow relevant... that is not consensus. Our time now will be better spent discussing other aspects of editing the article. (→Netscott) 15:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bus stop, we've moved on.. you don't have consensus for that content change... please help improve the article otherwise. (→Netscott) 17:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Laughter is certainly more relevant than say any quotes and comments made by Kyle Doss and several other stuff in this article. Say what is the point of mentioning the hecklers by name, what information will the reader gain from this if the hecklers were notable, they'd have their own page by now all of them? Laugter clearly shows that the audience was divided on the issue, it may not the the most relevant thing to this article, but it does have some relevance, certainly more than a lot already included. Geza 20:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, then Kgeza67 find a verifiable reliable source that has covered that aspect in some meaningful (relevant) way. Remember that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information meaning whatever is added needs to have pertinence. Also, you're deluding yourself if you honestly think that what Kyle Doss and Frank McBride have got to say is irrelevant. (→Netscott) 20:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  I dont want to include the mention of laughter in the article, i just think it has some relevance. More relevance than stuff already included, but that doesn't mean i will try to force it into the article. More i really honestly say that if Kyle Doss thinks the Richards apology is not sincere, that has no information value whatsoever. He expects a payout from all of this, what should he say, even if he did beleive Richards feels terrible and was sincere? Should he say: 'I accept the apology, the matter is closed, i don't need money, thank you Ms Allred'. There are HUGE quotes in the article from the hecklers, with little information value or relevance. Geza 21:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I do see your point to a certain extent. I think that the whole aftermath section could do for some serious thinning out in a number of regards. I thought you were referring to the intial mention of what Kyle Doss had to say about how the whole event commenced which very obviously has utmost relevance. (→Netscott) 21:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Irrelevance save one editor

message: I noticed references [3] and [9] are actually the same referring to Richard's Masonic past.  I'm embarassed to admit: I want to merge them to a single reference but actually don't know how to do so and can't find instructions on the reference page.  Does anyone knows the proper wiki syntax to merge references?  Tendancer 17:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate Reference 

message: Just found out that Michael Richards plan two personally apologize to the two hecklers:
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_5784.aspx
70.51.241.207 22:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bulbous 04:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Can I rm my own comments? Bulbous 14:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Wahkeenah 02:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: (r)e(m)ove... Bulbous 00:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know if that's cool according to the rules or not. Bulbous 03:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that you can modify (and presumably delete) your own comments here, but not those of others, unless they are clearly inflammatory and/or off-topic and/or plain old vandalism (like, for example, blanking the page). Wahkeenah 03:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, let's just see what happens. Bulbous 04:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably nothing, unless you go to an admin and log a grievance against yourself. :) Wahkeenah 04:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal Apology 

message: Could someone explain why Reiman's (the body language expert seen on the O'Reilly Factor) statement was removed from "Aftermath"? I see that Tendancer removed it and labeled it as "discussed" - I don't see any mention of it, so I'm not seeing your reasoning of why it has already been discussed. Sure, it was seen on the O'Reilly Factor, which you might or might not think has even political views, but is it not pertinent? Would it not be relevant information? Hopefully someone is making a compromise edit; it looks like it has come under some close scrutiny. I would just like it back in there; would it not add to the article? TechJon 03:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Fluffy is how I was describing it. TechJon, this appears to be your first post on Wikipedia and yet you show more proficiency at it than other more seemingly experienced editors. Under what other names have you edited previously? (→Netscott) 04:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Body Language Expert - Removed? 

message: As per WP:EL, Links to avoid: Avoid Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please do not link to open wikis 

message: Someone's trying to re-post that bit of absurdity again. He's just another actor with another opinion. Should we cite every actor that has something to say about it? Now, if he actually hits him, that's news. Commenting on it is not, it's just National Enquirer stuff. Wahkeenah 04:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A rather tangential and irrelevant bit of information ...  now if Foxx actually attacks Richards then of course that would change the dynamic. I think this as well about the other opinions expressed by the likes of Robin Williams, Tom Green and Mel Gibson (→Netscott) 04:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I see Jamie Foxx's talk as irrelevant is that unless he actually does something about it it's just bravado. (→Netscott) 04:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jamie Foxx 

message: The following passage was previously in the article:
Doss, appearing with McBride on The Today Show[], expressed that, "No, I think that apology was totally fake; it was forced. I feel like that was a career move. It wasn’t sincere." Doss also expressed, "I think freedom of speech should have some kind of limit."
This comes from a direct participant (obviously) in this story and so in that sense it would tend to have pertinence... what I'm curious to know though is whehter there is any sort of a consensus that this has enough pertinence to appear in the article? (→Netscott) 06:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to hear from users Bulbous and Kgeza67. I think Kgeza67 expressed hesitation about the first quote appearing in the article. I agree with you Bus stop about that first quote... I was moreso curious about the second quote. (→Netscott) 06:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. And the Wayans followup makes things interesting. A hallmark of standup is that it's one of the last bastions of free speech. Trying to pre-empt speech might lead to more rebellions. Wahkeenah 06:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm inclined to say that the second quote makes Kyle Doss look pretty bad (methinks of George W. Bush's infamous utterance of, "There ought to be limits to free speech." relative to GWBush.com. I'm inclined to think that it doesn't directly pertain to this article because Kyle Doss isn't that notable and he's not commenting specifically on Richards. (→Netscott) 07:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder what Kyle Doss would say about being lumped with Dubya. Meanwhile, you've got a point about him not commenting on Richards, and maybe just using this opportunity to make optimal use of his "15 minutes of fame". Wahkeenah 07:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  I think what he meant by the second quote was 'there should be limits so the same thing could not happen without the person being imprisoned'. I dont beleive any of these two quotes are that pertinent, the Article already contains the fact that they rejected the apology, the first qoute offers very little new information over that. The second qoute could be pertinent if the laws were to change because of this incident, but not right now. Geza 11:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm actually inclined to agree with Geza that a mere mention of their rejection of his intial apology (there's likely to be another soon) shold suffice.  12:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: We as editors are to do our best to write in encyclopedic, sourced ways and to add pertinent information while doing our best to cooperate with our fellow editors who may share radically different points of views from our own. So long as everyone does that, relative to the spirit fo consensus, the Wiki and its readers should benefit.  20:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kyle Doss' "Limits to free speech" comment

message: I do not see the relevance of this incident to a Michael Richards page.  Imagine the size of this article if every tangential incident related to some random celebrity (and in the cases of some past edits, non-celebrity non-notables) analyzing/reacting to the laugh factory incident is to be cited here.  Either at some point a separate Michael Richars/Laugh Factory page should be created, or this entry should be removed altogether.  I'll await others' opinions. Tendancer 20:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Damon Wayans Appearance 

message: May I ask why the Michael Richards page has been unprotected? I keep an eye on the Michael Richard page, and already Unregistered Users are vandalizing it; as I thought they would. They're putting in crap like "racist," and also slang words. I'm surprised no one saw this coming. It was bad enough when Registered Users vandalized the page. Acalamari 23:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why The Unprotection? 

message: I think it should be noted that in a radio interview, Both Joey Messina and Paul Rodriguez who were at the show told the radio hosts that the only thing they saw wrong was Michael Richards doing what he did as the only reason anyone spoke up was because he had been on stage for about 20 minutes and hadn't had a single laugh throughout his entire routine. Paul Rodriguez said that if he had the same reaction that Richards had, he would take the "Heckling" that happened in stride because "Either you kill, or you don't kill any particular night" and that night wasn't Michael's night, and what he did on video was really uncalled for. I'll look for a link to the conversation that Joey and Paul had on the radio show that day. In the meantime, please discuss whether this is relevant to the article. Raven6247 09:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joey and Pauls POV on the incident 

message: May I ask again why the Michael Richards page has been unprotected? I keep an eye on the Michael Richard page, and Unregistered Users have been vandalizing it; as I thought they would. They're putting in all sorts of things. I'm surprised no one saw this coming. It was bad enough when Registered Users vandalized the page, now we're getting Unregistered ones. I think we should re-protect the page for the time being. Acalamari 23:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree. This page MUST be protected. Vandalism is occurring on a daily basis, some of which is extremely defamatory. Most recently links to photos of Richards dressed in KKK regalia have been inserted. Because this is a bio of a living person, Wikipedia needs to take special care in this situation. Vandalism is not being reverted quickly enough in this case. Some derogatory remarks have remained on the page for hours. Cleo123 23:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: At 21:32 on December 19th, someone vandalized the page, and it was nearly an hour before that vandalism was reverted. These page definitely needs to be protected. Acalamari 23:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: This is a different situation, JJay: most articles on Wikipedia aren't about someone who said something offensive. People are mainly vandalizing the Michael Richards Wikipedia page because of his comments. We are not complaining; we have removed the vandalism when it has appeared. We're just saying that the protection should be reinstated, at least for the time being. The Michael Richards incident only happened a month ago, and lots of people will vandalize this page for a few more months while the incident is still reasonably recent. I still say that it should be protected again. Acalamari 00:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

text: That sound like a good idea. If the notice doesn't exist, what do we do to create or suggest one? It would be a good notice to use on articles that aren't being vandalized enough to get protected, but are getting vandalized to the extent that it's extremely annoying. and changes are continually being reverted. Acalamari 03:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a place to formally request protection:  Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 03:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, but I already know that. I was asking about how to get the notice created or proposed. As for protection, I think a few more people should support it before it's requested again. Otherwise, if anyone asked for the page to be protected again, they could be rejected; and I'm trying to get this page re-protected. Acalamari 04:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The page isn't protected. It's semi-protected. Anyone who wants to edit it can edit it... they just have to log in, first. Bulbous 18:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: No it should not be unprotected; the article was being vandalized by several unregistered Users. I thank whoever requested that the page should be protected again. Acalamari 02:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see some people supporting protection, and some supporting unprotection. Can someone tell me why semi-protection isn't a perfect compromise? Bulbous 03:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Semi-protection is a protection, just a lower version of it. Semi-protection is what I wanted anyway, as Unregistered Users were doing lots of vandalism. I am happy with semi-protection because it means that only Registered Users like myself can edit the page. Acalamari 18:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be good. If I had my way, every article would be semi-protected. Wahkeenah 18:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asking Again About The Unprotection 

message: I pared the aftermath section of the article dowm a little bit. My thought was to dedicate one paragraph to Richards' efforts to appologize, one paragraph to the hecklers' response and one paragraph to the Laugh Factory Aftermath. It seems that other editors are also working towards' paring the amount of article text dedicated to the Laugh Factory Incident down. If anyone objects, I'm glad to discuss the matter. Cleo123 01:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consolidation of Aftermath 

message: * The photographers need to be attributed, that is a requirement of the image licenses and should not be removed (as seen in this edit).
** Attribution can be found on the image page. --Oden 16:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was notable as a writer on his own short-lived show... so it's a bit of an undue weight question to have that in the lead. As far as the rest of your commentary I'm in agreeance save for the fact that occasionally there is legal/licensed content available on Youtube (which WP:EL allows for)... not so in this case though.  16:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He also had to write during his whole career to get anywhere as a comedian, but its true he only produced on his show, which ran for 9 episodes. Also i find the current wording odd, about the role 'earning' him emmys, why not just say he won emmys or something. Also what are the objections for stand up comic, it seems relevant in light of the current incident, why the need to remove so much from the lead, to reduce it to like five words, saying nothing about him except for his role in seinfeld. It can be other stuff, but i really feel that the lead got butchered too much and it really needs to be longer than that. Since the article is semiprotected now, we should agree on the lead and other changes. The "The venue has since stated that Richards is no longer welcome." sentence and references should be in the aftermath section, they dont describe the incident. Anyone objecting to moving them to the end of the Aftermath section?  Geza 17:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: To respond to one of Oden's bulleted points, no one is proposing that "stand-up comic, writer, producer should be omitted from the article" completely. As you can see, I recently added these details to the Biography section, where (IMO) they belong.  The editing controversy surrounds whether these facts are important enought to mention in the lead.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  December 2006 

message: If this is supposed to be the 'people's encyclopedia' then why remove the attempts of free speech?  don't remove other people's posts.  Panda —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.24.42.208 (talk) 03:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no fundamental right to free speech on Wikipedia - see WP:FREE. Bwithh 03:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Panda, vandalism and personal attacks cross the line of editing Wikipedia, and anyone who crosses the line is punished appropriately. If you vandalize or give personal attacks, you will be blocked from Wikipedia. Acalamari 04:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This dumb site 

message: The lead sentence currently refers Richards's famous character as "Cosmo Kramer"?  The first name was not assigned to him until fairly late into Seinfeld's run--and even then, it was more of a joke and a piece of trivia.  Anyone knowledgeable about the show will tell you the character's name is simply "Kramer." 
By the way, from what I can tell, the only reason the Wikipedia article is called Cosmo Kramer is that the Kramer article is already occupied by a disambiguation page.  Between Cosmo Kramer and Kramer (Seinfeld), the former is considered the lesser of two evils.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 20:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's kind of a joke, but once that first name was "revealed" (i.e. created late in the series), he was referred to as "Cosmo" from time to time in later episodes. Now, in real life, everyone knows that "Kramer" originally referred to "Kenny Kramer" or some such, an acquaintance of the show's creator. But although that was the character's inspiration, the Kramer on Seinfeld is his own character, and his creators decided (eventually) that his first name is Cosmo. Wahkeenah 21:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I know.  But the fact that only called him Cosmo "from time to time" further bolsters my argument that his name, properly, is just "Kramer."  The Cosmo thing is trivial.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 21:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as "Cosmo Kramer" is canon in the Seinfeld series, I say leave it in. Acalamari 21:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see that it would matter if it were the very last episode of Seinfeld in which we were introduced to "Kramer's" first name. It is fictional. And the first name assigned to him was "Cosmo." The name Cosmo was obviously chosen because it jives well with the wacky character that we know Kramer to be. It is a creative work. It is not an actual name. Why would you want to shave off the screenwriter's creative input to the character that Michael Richards played? Bus stop 21:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The obvious way to handle this is to spell out his "full name" and then mostly refer to him as Kramer in the article... which would be the standard in any case. For a real life comparison, consider Liberace, whose first name is stated at the beginning although he was, if anything, less known for his first name than Kramer is (and was arguably a fictional character, but that's another story). And Bus Stop is right, the name "Cosmo" fits his quirky character fairly well. Wahkeenah 21:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Kramer is mainly referred to as Kramer, but his first name is Cosmo. Acalamari 22:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Cosmo Kramer"

message: Someone please change "rage" (self descried) into just plain rage.
The scare quotes do nothing but introduce a POV and discredit michael richard's account.KramerCosmo 23:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change rage wording 

message: I'm suggesting that the article be semi-protected again. Ever since it was unprotected, IP addresses have been vandalizing the page again. Voice of All was the one who unprotected it, and since then, there's been almost-daily vandalism. Who else thinks that this page should be semi-protected again? Acalamari 04:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many; I've had to do reverts on pages like this one, Paris Hilton and Fergie (singer) due to anonymous editing. Acalamari 04:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As it turns out, the more pages you edit, and hence the more you're inclined to watch, the more vandalism you then may have to revert. Wahkeenah 04:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protect this page ''again.'' 

message: Rubinstein appears to have no idea what he's talking about, whether it's Richards' "belief in Judaism" or his "not practicing Masonry anymore".  As wityh most organizations, as long as he pays his membership dues, he is still a member, even if he does not go to meetings.  As the incident was big news (Masonically-speaking), there would be a source available if his membership was revoked, and there does not appear to be. MSJapan 06:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. But there is really no way to verify if he stopped paying his dues, is there? --JJay 06:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there is a way.  If he stopped paying his dues, both his lodge and the Grand Lodge of the State where this lodge is located will have a record.  In the absence of such a record we have to go with what the available sources say, and they say he is still a member.  Blueboar 18:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: * I know that the lodge and the Grand Lodge have a record. However, they also don't release that info to the general public. That is the point I was making regarding verification. --JJay 18:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Not a Mason anymore" 

message: The version as it is displaying currently is lacking in details that provide for more complete view of this event that the new Michael Richards Laugh Factory incident (currently) covers. This new article came about to reduce the size of this section of this article.  22:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care whether the breakout article stays or goes.  But it's okay to reference the seperate "Laugh Factor incident" page in this article.  If the breakout article ultimately gets deleted, only then should we remove the link.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 23:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I'm not ignoring the new article. I just removed the factual accuracy tag that wasn't needed. Acalamari 23:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine, but someone else has been removing the link to the new article altogether, which seems inappropriate to me.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 23:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand Netscott's point. He wants people to be aware of the AFD. This seems like a perfect solution. There is only a one sentence difference between the two articles. (That sentence being the one other editors found objectionable.) Now people can accurately compare the "two" articles. This seems like an equitable solution that should be acceptable to all parties. Hooray for the "Fat Man" ! Cleo123 23:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Breakout article

message: Reducing the text covering the Laugh Factory incident in this article increases the need for a separate article which examines Richards' life from the perspective of the incident of November 17, 2006. I think that is backwards. The Laugh Factory incident properly fits within the context of the life of Michael Richards. The life of Michael Richards does not properly fit within the context of the Laugh Factory incident of November 17, 2006. Bus stop 00:48, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The creation of a seperate article has no bearing on this one. Just because a seperate article has been created covering this subject matter is no reason to cease cleanup and improvement of this article. Regardless of the fate of the "breakaway" article, this one needs to be edited for POV and other pitfalls. Bulbous 01:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand what you are saying. I'm concerned, however, that you will do all this work only to have an "angry mob" return to this page and revert all your hard work if the free standing article is deleted. Cleo123 01:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've reverted you Bus stop. I think you got the wrong version there. Bulbous's version more clearly represents the exact point of dispute between the two versions. When Netscott reinserted the "Blacks & Mexicans" quote and was subsequently reverted by Killroy4 he created the seperate article. Cleo123 01:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also. Bulbous if you want to continue making logical POV reductions, I will not revert you. I think you may be wasting your time - but that's your call. Cleo123 01:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  concerning the "breakaway" article