Talk:List of Jewish messiah claimants

message: Except for the intro and the paragraph about Jesus, all the material was in the Messiah article in a section titled Other historically significant Jewish Messiah claimants. It reached the point where it constituted most of the article and people basically stopped contributing.
These are intended as overviews and not detailed descriptions. If you want to add information about a particular person included, please add to the related article and not here.
REMEMBER NPOV! This is not the place to get into religious debates about whether Jesus is the Messiah!
The source article did not contain references for the information.
:RickReinckens 08:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split from Messiah article 

message: BS"D
When did The Arizal Hakodesh or his talmid R' Chaim Vital claim to be the Moshiach???
I have never heard that and don't belive it to be true. 
Could somebody please clarify that for me?
Thanks,
Shaul avrom 18:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does anyone read this talk page any more???? Its been a month since I posted my question.--Shaul avrom 22:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to be the only one who looks at this talk page and knows Jewish History. R' Chaim Vital was a talmid of a talmid of the Arizal HaKodesh. --Shaul avrom 15:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should remove the Arizal from the list temporarily unless someone can show that the arizal declared himself as the moshiach. The wikipedia page on the ari has no mention of this and I have not seen such a teaching in various jewish textbooks. If someone finds a source to the contrary than they can put his name back in.Sagtkd 07:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When did the Arizal hakodesh claim he was the Moshiach?? 

message: Care to explain the logic on this one?  A Jewish messianic claimant could be someone Jewish filing a claim in court in the manner of a Messiah (whatever that would imply).  "People who have claimed to be a Messiah in Judaism" would be perhaps the most precise title, but it's also long and unwieldly.  The original title seems the best option, to me.  SnowFire 17:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeing no response, I'm moving it back.  I don't know; maybe the page should be at Jewish messianic claimants, but without a reason to go on...  SnowFire 05:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent move 

message: Removed the following from the section on Asher Kay:
:Not much is know about his Reincarnation, but most believe he was reborn in Columbus, Ohio in 1988.
no cites, no references, and a highly speculative and dubious claim - have removed. (forgot to log in before making the edit tho - apologies) --Black Butterfly 18:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asher Kay 

message: Before I put it in I was wondering if there was a logical reason that Jesus isn't on the list. Eno-Etile 05:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was sure this had been discussed but evidently I'm wrong (either that or the discussion was on another article.) I'd be in favour of putting it in tho with a "Main article: Judaism's view of Jesus", due to this article focusing on the Messiah from a Jewish perspective rather than looking at the more general concept (see Messiah). --Black Butterfly 08:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, well I'm just going to put the name on the list, since Jesus meets the list's criteria. Someone else can make it a link since I'm not sure what would be most appropriate. Eno-Etile 08:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made it link to Jesus. --Black Butterfly 09:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus... 

message: ever claimed to be the messiah.  Their followers believed it and made the claim, but they did not endorse it.  They both refused to rule out the possibility that they might be the messiah - how could they? - but I don't see how that makes them "claimants".  I'm not sure either should be in this article. -- Zsero 20:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you were there? Or did you find their journals? I don't who "LR" is. But since a religion was founded on the idea that Jesus claimed to be the messiah, the son of God, and God himself it seems a bit presumptuous and insulting for you state that he never claimed to be the messiah. Especially since there is no Jesus journal in which he stated that he wasn't the messiah and since there are records kept by his closest followers that say that he made these claims. Eno-Etile 01:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't leave out the most famous of all of the people who claimed to be the Messiah. Including Jesus on the list shouldn't offend Christian sensibilities (It doesn't offend mine.). The list doesn't make any comment on the veracity of Jesus' claim, it just says Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. And by all accounts, Jesus did. Jsc1973 (talk) 05:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Listing Jesus as "Yeshua" is revisionist, as he is never called by a Hebrew or Aramaic name anywhere in the Greek writings about him known as the "NT".  Furthermore, the closest actual Hebrew word to "Yeshua" is y'shu'ah, which is feminine.  The male name which is a Babylonian-era shortening of the name Y'hoshu'a is Yeishu'a.  And while Menachem Mendel Schneerson may have things claimed in his name he surely never made the claim himself.  He shouldn't be on the list.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.17.146.166 (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeshua was a common Hebrew name in the late 2nd Temple period.   And no, Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah.  If you think he did, please cite your source.  -- Zsero (talk) 22:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Jesus claimed to be the Messiah according to John 4:25-26 - "The woman said, 'I know that Messiah' (called Christ) 'is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.' Then Jesus declared, 'I, the one speaking to you—I am he.'"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.67.6 (talk) 14:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Neither Jesus nor the LR

message: If this is a list of 'Claimants' and he was never a claimant I don't see the validity if including him and I have taken him off the list.
--IDTboy 11:13, 5 September 2008 
:See above.  Nor did Jesus ever claim it for himself.  -- Zsero (talk) 22:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we remove the Lubavitcher Rebbe Please? 

message: I removed these two because they belong in a separate category.  They are not messiah claimants in the way Jesus of Jacob Frank were.  They were actual kings - in their cases, "messiah" means only that they were annointed.  But they were actual kings, not eschatological claimants.  If we include Cyrus, we may as well include David, Solomon, etc. and all the high priests.  They were all annointed too.  My point is, this article should be about people who claimed that they should be annointed king.  Not people who actually were annointed king and actually reigned as king. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 18:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyrus and Alexander 

message: Why is "messiah" capitalized here, when it is uncapitalized elsewhere? Is this due to some qualitative distinction between the Jewish concept and any other?-Stevertigo (w | t | e) 01:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Usage in WP:RS varies a little but does tend to capital M with "the", but yes "a messiah" wouldn't be. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization 

message: Almost the entire section for this figure is a copy and paste from this. That site claims copyright, so I don't think it's been released, but I might be wrong. 140.247.141.165 (talk) 01:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. Thanks for pointing it out. Tom Harrison Talk 12:19, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moses Guibbory copyvio 

message: It seems POV to leave out the fact that Jesus was killed like the other Messiah claimants such as Judas of Galilee and it is easy enough to source it is in the bible  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.168.137 (talk) 02:38, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why this is POV, but feel free to add that he was killed. At least he was Jewish. Debresser (talk) 12:57, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is it not explaind that Jesus was killed by romans ? 

message: In using the text 'another false messiah', an opinion of validity is given.  Anyone claiming to be a messiah is no different than any other.  I would either ask that 'false' be added to all claimants, or removed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.178.54 (talk) 23:26, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds fair enough. Since the messiah hasn't come yet, all were false. Debresser (talk) 12:57, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Absolutely agreed. "False messiah," "pretend messiah," and "pseudo-messiah" are all value judgments and should be eliminated. The claim that "the messiah hasn't come yet" is another value judgment, considering that there are no objective and universally accepted standards for determining messiah status. Adding "false" to every instance would simply multiply the value judgments, since some past messiahs (notably Jesus and Sabbatai Sevi) are still accepted as such by some people, though there are those who do not view such people as still Jewish (note: this too is a value judgment, albeit one that I happen to share). --Potosino (talk) 15:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is the term 'false' used 

message: Haile Selassie is considered by the Rastafarian Catholics to be the Messiah.  It is still practiced today, and he is the most recent.  He never made such a claim, and never denied it either (kind of like the Jesus character).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.178.54 (talk) 23:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is for Jewish Messiah claimants. Debresser (talk) 12:56, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Haile Selassie I 

message: I don't know if Judas Maccabeus ever claimed to be the messiah but a lot of people thought he was. He was the only military leader in Jewish history to successfully lead a revolt against an occupying force (the Seleucid empire of Antiochus IV Epiphanes). Futhermore, some Messianic prophecies from Daniel were fulfilled during his lifetime. Daniel chapter eight contains a prophecy where Daniel has a vision of a ram and a goat. The chapter has two parts: the vision and the explanation of the vision.
Part of the prophecy, contained in verses eleven through fourteen, says "It [the last horn to grow on the ram] set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground. Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?” He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."
The explanation of this part of the vision is given in verses twenty-three through twenty-five: “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power."
Antiochus sacked the temple, outlawed Judaism, and banned temple sacrifices in 167 BC. Judas Maccabeus led a revolt and defeated Antiochus' general Nicanor in 160 BC, about six and a half years or almost exactly 2300 days later. Considering the amazing parallels of these events to the prophecy in Daniel seven, many people considered Judas Maccabeus to be the "Prince of princes" in verse twenty-five. While Judas Maccabeus was able to secure complete autonomy from the Seleucid empire, the peace he obtained was only temporary and people soon stopped considering him the messiah because he failed to bring in the "everlasting peace" promised by the messianic oracles. 
I'm going to add him to the list but I'm putting this in the discussion page so that people can see all my reasons for adding him and can debate his inclusion
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.75.24 (talk) 18:07, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Judas Maccabeus be on the list? 

message: Although he was arrested in Israel and renamed himself as a savior in hebrew there is no indication that he is Jewish.   Ratzon is originally from India.  http://www.apologeticsindex.org/1272-goel-ratzon --Lfrankbalm (talk) 22:25, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many Indian Jews, see History of the Jews in India. He lived and was active in Israel. Debresser (talk) 18:16, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: *whatever Ratzon is has to be cited as fact.. saving citation-proof it cannot be included here.Goel Ratzon - Needs a factual basis or citation --Lfrankbalm (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: *The words in the source you cite, taken directly from a Jerusalem Post article, are "he learned while traveling in India ... . “He was in India for years.” ",https://www.jpost.com/Israel/Inside-Goel-Ratzons-cult not that he is originally from India. According to the English and Hebrew Wikipedia articles based on a Yediot article he was born in south Tel Aviv to parents from Yemen. Mcljlm (talk) 03:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goel Ratzon 

message: What happened to using BC and AD. When did BCE and CE over take this. Is this revisionist history.24.112.198.11 (talk) 23:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In Judaism-related articles BCE and CE is preferred, but see WP:ERA. Debresser (talk) 17:07, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  BC and AD 

message: The article is misleading, Cyrus and Alexander were not Jewish. --YB ✍ 15:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyrus and Alexander 

message: *Suggested edit:
Ben Ammi Ben-Israel, born Ben Carter, October 12, 1939 – December 27, 2014. Ben-Israel was revered as a messianic figure in the community, his picture adorning at least one wall in every apartment. In an interview, Ben Ammi described his status as a prophet and spiritual leader:
:"My anointing did not come until after we had arrived in Israel. The Father sent a prophet to anoint me and to let me know the further off or great portion of my mission...At the time he anointed me...I received the name Nasi Hashalom [The Prince of Peace]...Later on this same prophet came again to tell me according to the word of God that at a later date someone would be sent to anoint me to sit on the throne of David in the spirit and to fulfill the prophecies of he that was to sit on the throne of David. The words of a true prophet, they certainly came to pass, and it took place just as he said. Afterwards, from Nasi Hashalom my name was changed to Rabbey and Adoni Rabbey [My Lord and Master].
*Dispute against this addition: 
 16:20, 19 December 2017‎ Wiking (talk | contribs)‎ . . (32,777 bytes) (-1,182)‎ . . (Black Hebrews are not Jewish (nor consider themselves Jewish)) 
*Counter-argument:
Black Hebrew scholar Andrew Esensten: "more radical Hebrew Israelite groups claim that they are the authentic Jews and that 'white' Jews are nothing more than imposters."
*Conclusion: This is a strong enough link to include the idea of their messianic claims into a page about Jewish messianic claims.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikifan925 (talk • contribs) 19:29, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Israelites 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: According to the introduction, this is a list of people ‘of notable people who have been said to be a messiah, either by themselves or by their followers’. This doesn’t include people who have been said to be a prophet (by themselves or by their followers) or a forerunner of the Messiah. --81.92.17.129 (talk) 16:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prophets