Talk:Paul Denyer

message: Anyone know why he was denied to wear makeup? Also, who wrote this article? I looked for information on him no less than 4 weeks ago and there was no wikipedia article on him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.176.134 (talk • contribs) 
:I provided what's currently there, though the article is far from finished. The references section may give more information on the denial of his request for cosmetics in prison. I think I can work out why though. Killing three young women, then asking to become one (he also requested information on sex reassignment surgery), albeit whilst imprisoned in a maximum security prison, would pose some serious security risks I'd imagine. -- Longhair 15:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The guy says he kills women because he hates them and THEN wants to become one? If I were a judge, I would deny him the "privilege" of wearing cosmetics too. Come on... ANY decent judge would deny him to wear cosmetics after what he stated.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.60.53 (talk) 05:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Request to wear cosmetics in prison

message: :Image:Thefrankstonmurders.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 03:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Thefrankstonmurders.jpg

message: I deleted the "Online letter auction" section because it was not encyclopedic. Serial killer merchandise is sold all the time. That doesn't make it appropriate for a Wiki article. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. --*momoricks* (talk) 12:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted online letter auction section 

message: "Denyer is a member of the first Australian-generation."
He's a first generation Australian? So what?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.35.144 (talk) 10:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does this mean? 

message: Since she was male at the time of committing the killings, conviction, sentencing and imprisonment, She shouldn't fall under the category of Female Serial Killers. An egg hatches into a chicken, but you wouldn't file an egg under the category of "Chicken Wings"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.185.115.98 (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what Wikipedia's policies say, nor is it how other cases were handled (e.g. Chelsea Manning). 50.235.24.34 (talk) 15:19, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category "Female Serial Killers" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: He has not legally changed his name. He has not transitioned. He is Paul. Period. Rippingbracelet (talk) 16:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: MOS:GENDERID has no such requirements on how we handle her name. —C.Fred (talk) 18:03, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: But WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:COMMONNAME, and other policies tell us to follow the sources.  Virtually all reliable sources refer to this subject as Paul, not Paula.  GENDERID is being misunderstood and misapplied here.  Guidelines operate within, not against, policies.  Trying to use personal interpretations of a guideline to subvert the clear meaning of multiple policies is WP:GAMING.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:19, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

text: - I think that your perception could possibly be the actual intention for this... from what I gathered from reading past discussions, the only sources other than Wikipedia that refer to this person in this manner that Wikipedia does are extreme RIGHT-wing publications. For what agenda I cannot speculate. But this article seems to be a ground zero for subversive WP:GAMIMG activity. =\ Firejuggler86 (talk) 00:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul not Paula. 

message: Denyer's potential availability for parole in 2023 was discussed in the Vic parliament recently. The MP asking the question of the govt (David Limbrick) referred to him as Paul Denyer. In her response, the Victorian Attorney General referred to "Mr Denyer." Facebook video of parliamentary proceedings here: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=876315283247607&extid=NS-UNK-UNK-UNK-IOS_GK0T-GK1C&ref=sharing
Anyone pushing some WP bureaucratic nonsense that Denyer should be referred to as female is putting ideology ahead of what is (a) factually correct, and (b) morally correct. 124.170.120.47 (talk) 17:14, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide specific time-stamps in the podcast where the statement is made that Denyer identifies as male in 2021. We need to make sure they aren't using male pronouns to discuss circumstances at a point in the past. —C.Fred (talk) 03:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Such-change47 please take a read of MOS:GENDERID and WP:BLP. In short, we don't care whether governments fail to recognise someone's gender identity. Many governments do not for a variety of reasons. The thing which matters to us is whether the subject has clearly expressed a gender identity. In some circumstances if sufficient sources have disputed the sincerity of someone expressed gender identity, it's possible we may mention this but even if we do, we still write the article according to the latest expressed gender identity. And even for people who aren't in prison, this generally comes from what reliable secondary sources have reported the person has said. If a reliable secondary source has reported what someone has said about their gender identity, this isn't "speculation". We generally prefer what reliable secondary sources have said about what someone has said rather than relying on what the person said directly per WP:ABOUTSELF etc. Nothing you've said seems to dispute that the podcast is a self published source and therefore cannot be used for claims about other living persons. (Note that this would likely include Sarah Macdiarmid, and of her family and friends who are still alive, anyone involved in the investigation etc who is still alive, and any identifiable people accused of possible involvement in her diappearance who are either still alive or may be still alive.) The fact that the subject of this article may be a horrible person does not affect our policy. While there would be a lot we can say about them which will be very negative and will be included in the article, we cannot include information (positive, negative or neutral) if there isn't sufficient sourcing. This includes about their gender identity. And I never said anything about causing any community harm. I only referred to causing the subject harm. BLP first and foremost is about avoiding harm to all living persons by what we say about them, ensuring it's properly sourced and should be covered. As already mention, this does include serial killers and other not nice people. If you aren't willing to accept that, please refrain from editing any content which concerns living persons. While I find it very wrong that the subject has claimed their gender dysphobia lead to their crimes, when it comes to writing articles I accept I cannot exclude information just because I find it distasteful. What matters is the level of coverage in reliable secondary sources and other issues from our policies and guidelines which dictate what we should cover. Nil Einne (talk) 07:11, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote from the podcast at 1:40 is  Given the questionable reliability of the source, the fact that it's the only source making this claim, and the dearth of actual information given by the source, the best call here is to stick with the most recent reliably sourced gender preference. Firefangledfeathers 14:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - a single source, referring only to unnamed other sources, doesn't meet the burden of proof to make such a significant change. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 18:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nil Einne and Firefangledfeathers I have spent some time reading up on policies today before coming back to this. I do understand now why it would have been better to discuss substantial changes here first rather than just revert the changes. After absorbing the policies about biographies of living persons, and reliability of sources, I would like to know why this source is not worthy of a change, considering that the source listed stating Denyer committed his first murder is the same podcast producer that I cited? Casefile Presents is the source used to cite claims of Denyer committing murder, yet this is considered insufficient to cite something else? Denyer was never convicted of a crime relating to the slaughter of cats in the Claude street residence. The same podcast series which discusses crimes of which the subject was never convicted is cited and this was never removed. Is it the case that if the comments about Denyer reverting to male pronouns occurred in a print newspaper, things would be different? Such-change47 (talk) 07:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Such-change47 (talk) 04:04, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the ping. I would be inclined to remove or attribute other claims made by Casefile, unless uncontentious or corroborated by other sources. I looked around a decent amount for some other source discussing Denyers no longer identifying as female, and found none. The murder of Elizabeth Stevens is plentifully sourced elsewhere.Part of the issue of relying on a true-crime podcast to source so much of this article is that it's written in too much podcast-y detail. I'm mainly here in response to the BLPN notice, and not looking to be too involved in a major cleanup/rewrite. Firefangledfeathers 04:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victorian Parliament 

message: In 2012, Denyer was questioned over four rapes of vulnerable prisoners in Denyer's prison cell. Denyer was accused of offering them a massage before raping them. As they were vulnerable and had special needs it was difficult to get their statements.
Denyer gave evidence about these rapes via video link and refused to look at the camera.1
Evidence at court by a psychiatrist and psychologist stated that Denyer had a 
'Sadistic Personality Disorder' and 
'The applicant obtained much satisfaction from the mutilation, humiliation, and killing of others.'
Sources: 1 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-08/serial-killer-questioned-over-alleged-prison-rape/3998134
2 The Frankston Serial Killer
By Vikki Petraitis
Chapter 37 125.168.228.22 (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2022 

message: For the media section, you can add the documentary "Forensic Investigators Episode 1 Series 1 2004". Paul Denyer https://g.co/kgs/9B31FN Ajthunter (talk) 16:09, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Where and why would it be added? SK2242 (talk) 02:10, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2022 

message: Use correct male pronouns for Paul Denyer 2A01:4B00:A80E:5100:F4D1:953C:6C39:6189 (talk) 05:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: see MOS:GENDERID Cannolis (talk) 06:23, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2022 

message: Denyer is variously referred to as both a male and a female throughout this article. Sometimes the same sentence or consecutive sentences will switch Denver's pronouns. This is confusing for readers.
I understand Denyer's current gender identity is subject to some degree of uncertainty. I do not know what Wikipedia's policy is on post-transition identification. However, there should surely be consistency in the use of Denyer's pronouns. Certainly, when Denyer committed his or her crimes, Denyer identified as a male. 49.179.91.87 (talk) 07:54, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continual switching of pronouns 

message: Change "date apprehended" to 31 July 1993. Paul Denyer was apprehended on 31 July 1993 not 31 March 1994. The date listed at the top of this article is incorrect but is correct in the section titled "Investigation". Source: The Frankston Murders: 25 years on by Vicki Petraitis. Pkcw197 (talk) 23:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Aaron Liu (talk) 02:57, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2022 

message: The first known incident attributed to Denyer occurred in February 1993, when Donna Vanes' Claude Street unit in Seaford was broken into.[10] After an anonymous threatening call, Vanes was fearful of being alone.[9] Vanes asked her boyfriend to take her and their newborn --Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 05:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a stray apostrophe in the name Vanes in "After being out for approximately an hour, Vanes returned to the unit..." 220.240.147.159 (talk) 23:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2023 

message: In the section ‘Break-in and killing of animals’ the last line reads ‘…he’d of murdered her also.’ That should read ‘he’d have murdered her also.’ 
Grammatically, ‘he’d of’ makes no sense and is well below acceptable standard. 106.71.63.3 (talk) 07:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Denyer&diff=prev&oldid=1154103606 Cannolis (talk) 13:36, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2023 

message: Paul Denyer is named in new Victorian legislation...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-31/frankston-serial-killer-paul-denyer-law-prison-parole/103043948 220.240.147.159 (talk) 23:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  New legislation