Talk:Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972)

message: The name of this page isn't very vernacular.  Shouldn't it be moved to a more common usage name in line with the likes of Cabinet of the United Kingdom or Cabinet of Canada?Traditional unionist (talk) 16:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm...I think I disagree with you there actually. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Traditional unionist (talk • contribs) 13:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the cabinet of the UK and the PC are different things, as they were in NI too; I could've been an PC (NI) without be in the cabinet. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mea culpa, I see there is; Privy Council of Northern Ireland also... --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about the cabinet, only using its formal and verbose name.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland was the title given to the Government, why change it.--Padraig (talk) 14:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: because if you asked me what it was (aside from knowing it now) I wouldn't have a clue.  No one knows what the Exec Comm of the UK privy Council is, everyone knows what the cabinet it.  It should be standardised to westminster style norms, such as the above examples of the UK and Canada.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Standardised to Westminster style norms, your forgetting one major difference between the British Governments cabinet is answerable to parliament, that was not the case with the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland although it functioned as the cabinet and government it was above the Parliament of Northern Ireland and wasn't accountable to it.--Padraig (talk) 16:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The cabinet in the UK is not answerable to Parliament either.  It is answerable to the Monarch, just as the NI Cabinet was.Traditional unionist (talk) 19:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The page should be moved back the current title just causes confusion with the current Cabinet of Northern Ireland --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 15:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it wasn't know as the Cabinet, it was the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Padraig, the move was premature and should be moved back now.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 01:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Personally I think it should be expanded and moved to Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972) its seems silly to have an article on the cabinet and not the government. --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 18:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The cabinet is the government.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No it isn't government includeds all the departments and civil service the Cabinet is just the senior members of the government. --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 19:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference here is so small as to not make it worthwhile.  Nonetheless, this is an article with a specific place to fit, and its current title isn't suitable.Traditional unionist (talk) 19:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldnt disagree with you more. Barry is bang on - the Government is more important. This should only be a sub article.--Vintagekits (talk) 19:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't see what the problem is here.  Why wouldn't there be a page on the Cabinet of Northern Ireland called the Cabinet of Northern Ireland?  This was one of the most important bodies in Northern Ireland for 50 of the last 100 years.Traditional unionist (talk) 19:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

text: And I have not seen any reason to move it from its proper title to something it was never called.--Padraig (talk) 23:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But that is not a valid argument, given that it is wrong.  Ken Bloomfield was Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, that was his job title!  Several academic works refer to it directly, and never as the executive committee of anything.  I know, I wrote a 10,000 word dissertation on a period of its history.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry it is a very valid arguement, the Executive Council of Northern Ireland and the Executive Council of Southern Ireland where setup under the Government of Ireland Act that partitioned Ireland.  We can't just change proper names and titles because you want to alter what the Executive was, or how it functioned.--Padraig (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So why are there articles called the Cabinet of the United Kingdom or the Cabinet of Canada or ANY former dominion, for the situation is identical.  This article is named in a verbose manner, despite its techincal accuracy, and should be moved to the vernacular.  That will be much more useful.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This has nothing to do with the title of the British or Canadian Cabinet articles, the Executive Council of Northern Ireland was sub-ordinate to the Westminster Parliament and not equal to it.--Padraig (talk) 23:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't matter, an identically system was put in place, just as in the dominions.  Where the order of precedence lies has no relevance whatsoever.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I wouild advise that you concentrate your efforts on creating the Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972) article, or would that be too constructive? --Vintagekits (talk) 00:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I thought the topic at hand was the name of the article and the consensus was that Cabinet of Northern Ireland was no the best title. --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 01:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But we haven't established an adequate rationale for this consensus.  The name is not one recognisable to anyone familiar with the subject matter, never mind those not familiar.  It is and was referred to as the Cabinet, just as compatible bodies are.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. It would cause confusion with regards to the current Cabinet the (Executive Committee) do a search on Cabinet of Northern Ireland and 2. As I said before its silly to have an article on the cabinet but not the Government it would be like having a Cabinet of Scotland artilce but no Scottish Government --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 01:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That google search throws up cabinets of all hues.  While the current executive is a cabinet, just as the assembly is actually a parliament neither are called so officially or in the vernacular.  Silly it may be, but that is no reason to keep this page where it is.  Indeed your argument is a good one for moving this one!  Yes a Government page should exist, but I don't see how that stops this page being moved.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The NI Assembly is not a Parliament and is never referred to as such the Executive Committee is a Cabinet so that is a reason to stop the page being moved also the reason it should not exist is there would be massive crossover between the Government artice and this one. --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 16:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is indeed a parliament to the same extent as the Scotish parliament (ours does have tax raising powers, contrary to popular belief).  On your second point, then why do any of the cabinet articles exist?  You contend above that there is sifficient difference to make it viable, so why contest this move?Traditional unionist (talk) 16:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Having tax powers does not make it a Parliament, and I have already stated why I contest the move. --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 21:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

text: You misunderstand.  This page should be moved, to Cabinet/Gov. of NI. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 12:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is probably enough material for separate pages.Traditional unionist (talk) 13:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're confusing me now! --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  page name 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*
*Oppose No rational is given other than WP:COMMONNAME, and that has not to-date been established. The official title is currently used in the article, why change it. --Domer48'fenian' 20:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks TU for that comment, but having read the two previous sections I still have yet to see the supporting sourses. --Domer48'fenian' 14:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: yes.  My bad.  The books are not to hand right now, and havent been for a while.  Long storyTraditional unionist (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: In case anybody still cares, let me point out that the legal name of the body was never "The Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland". The body could be described as "an executive committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland"; for all I know it may well have been the only executive committee of that particular privy council; but that was never its formal name. S.8(5) of the 1920 act as enacted provided for two executive committees of the Privy Council of Ireland, one to be named the "Executive Committee for Northern Ireland" and the other the "Executive Committee for Southern Ireland". The former  was called into being in 1921; the latter never was. The Irish Free State (Consequential Provisions) Act 1922 created the Privy Council of Northern Ireland and search-replaced "Privy Council of Ireland" in the 1920 act; so the Executive Committee for Northern Ireland changed from being an executive committee of the Privy Council of Ireland (one of two such) to being an executive committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland (one and only?); but its name was unchanged — Executive Committee for Northern Ireland. jnestorius(talk) 17:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Executive Committee for Northern Ireland