Talk:Christian universalism

message: If "Christian Universalism" is distinct from "Universal Reconciliation" then please write an article on one that is not merely a copy-and-paste of the other. Right now this article is a near-identical duplication of the lede of Universal Reconciliation and should therefore redirect to that article for the time being. Redirecting. Mike R 15:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Christian Universalism is indeed a much broader topic than Universal Reconciliation.  I have written a new article about Christian Universalism and removed the redirect. Shiningdove (talk) 02:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, even just one type of Christian Universalism alone, Evangelical Universalism, made prominent by books like Thomas Talbott's "The Inescapable Love of God" and Gregory MacDonald's "The Evangelical Universalist", cover more than the topic of Universal Reconciliation.(talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 08:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect to [[Universal Reconciliation]] 

message: I much enjoyed reading this article.  But I note that it seems to be entirely USA-centric from about 1700 onward.David.Throop (talk) 22:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In other nations 

message: I came looking for information on New England Universalist beliefs and the Universalist connection to Spiritualism. The article seems to be largely focused on contemporary beliefs at the expense of historical development. Unitarians and Universalists were not always united as they are now, and the historical distinction needs to be made by someone who knows the history. 
MarkBul (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page needs a historical section 

message: Removed 'Scotch' because it's meaningless.  Scotus and Eriugena meant the same thing at the time: Irish.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.64.44 (talk) 03:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Eriugena

message: This article has a major flaw: Universalism is not the same belief as Ultimate Reconciliation; not even from the narrowest Christian definition.  This article blurs the two into a muddy topic.  That is the cause of some of the disagreement I'm reading.  To drastically over-simplify the difference; Universalism means everyone gets a "pass," while Ultimate Reconciliation recognizes that the unrepentant get punished, but all will eventually be reconciled to Christ.  --LanceHaverkamp 17:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "In 1899 the Universalist General Convention, later called the Universalist Church of America, adopted the Five Principles: the belief in God, Jesus Christ, the immortality of the human soul, the reality of sin and Universal reconciliation"
Are you saying this is wrong? Then please present better references establishing what the actual principles adopted were. If it is correct, I don't see how you can argue that Christian Universalism is not characterized by the belief in universal reconciliation? After all, the other four principles, belief in God, Jesus Christ, the soul and the reality of sin is accepted by every Christian denomination I have ever heard of. Thus, principles 1 to 4 make "Christian Universalism" Christian, while principle 5 distinguishes it as Univeralism. --dab (𒁳) 11:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Flaw: Universalism ≠ Ultimate Reconciliation  

message: Sorry, but what is there in this article that does not duplicate universal salvation article? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge? 

message: This article barely even touches on Christian teachings of universal reconciliation before modern times Where are all the pre-modern fathers and theologians that modern denominations build on (Figures like Origen and the Cappadocian fathers, various medievals such as H. Julian of Norwich)? They are not part of this article. As such, it is quite incomplete.
F.W. Farrar's public domain book Mercy and Judgment should be a very useful resource for expanding this article.  74.133.104.185 (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article very limited in its scope 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."81.11.230.198 (talk) 07:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  =thisPROPAGANDA?? 

message: I have begun to work on the section which was titled "Reforming 'hell' biblically through discussion across denominational lines"
I have renamed it, removed some of what seemed like OR and added what I consider a strong citation.
Any input welcome Sethie (talk) 11:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  original research tag 

message: I moved this out, because I don't believe it is accurate- not all universalists believe in theosis, and many demonimations believe in theosis, just not for all people.
"The two central beliefs which distinguish Christian Universalism from mainstream Christianity are universal reconciliation (all will eventually be reconciled to God-without exception, the penalty for sin is not irrevocable at the point of death, i.e. doctrines of everlasting damnation to hell and annihilationism are rejected) and theosis (all souls will ultimately be reconciled and conformed to the image of the glorified resurrected Christ)." Sethie (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belief section

message: I moved out of the article this because I don't think it belongs in the intro- and actually I think it is quite innaccurate- 
"Many in the Universalist camp believe that all human beings are already reconciled to God even if they are unaware of it. We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
I don't know that many believe that at all!
Any input is welcome Sethie (talk) 13:27, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for this. It needs some pruning and resources. Unfortunate to lose anything good but it's necessary for encyclopedic standards. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:01, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the accurate parts of it can be put back in somewhere else...... :) Sethie (talk) 18:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

text: wink wink, nudge nudgeSethie (talk) 18:20, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: intro

message: It would be great to get some quptes from the Bible in this article, a section on Biblical foundations of universalism maybe?... I am working on pruning that section over at universalism] anyones input welcome. 
Also, I found the following inside this article, I have moved it here. It would be nice to put some of the artcle, though I think it would need to be cleaned up quite a bit:
Scriptural support
Christian Universalists claim that Jesus taught Universalist principles including universal reconciliation and the divine origin and destiny of all people, and that these teachings were further developed by Saint Paul, Saint Peter, and Saint John the Apostle.  They also argue that some Universalist principles were taught or foreshadowed in the Old Testament.
Christian Universalists often point to the following Biblical teachings as evidence of Universalismprinted sources and page numbers needed:
*Jesus' prophecy that he will "draw all men" to himselfJohn 12:32. BibleGateway.com.
*Jesus' teaching that God is "Our Father in heaven" Matthew 6:9. BibleGateway.com
* Jesus' teaching that all things will be renewed.Matthew 19:28. BibleGateway.com
*Jesus' teaching that the unforgiving servant will be turned "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed." Matthew 18:34.  BibleGateway.com
*Jesus' statement that human beings are "gods" John 10:34, quoting Psalm 82:6 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's teaching that human beings are God's "offspring"Acts 17:28. BibleGateway.com
*Paul's teaching that there is "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all"Ephesians 4:6 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's teaching that God will show mercy on allRomans 11:32 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's teaching that "from [God] and through him and to him are all things"Romans 11:36 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's prophecy that "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive"1 Corinthians 15:22 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's teaching that "just as the result of one trespass [by Adam] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [by Christ] was justification that brings life for all men. ... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous"Romans 5:18–19 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's teaching that "God was pleased (...)to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross"Colossians 1:19–20 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's statement that God "is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe."1 Timothy 4:10 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's teaching that "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them"2 Corinthians 5:19 BibleGateway.com
*Paul's prophecy that "every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"Philippians 2:10–11. BibleGateway.com
*Peter's teaching that Jesus "died for sins once for all" and "went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago",1 Peter 3:18–20. BibleGateway.com so that they may "live according to God in regard to the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6)
*John's teaching that "[Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world"1 John 2:2. BibleGateway.com
*Old Testament teaching that men and women are created "in the image of God" (Genesis 1:27)
*Old Testament teaching that "[God's] anger lasts only a moment"Psalm 30:5. BibleGateway.com.
*Old Testament teaching that "[God] is good; his love endures forever"Psalm 106:1, 107:1. BibleGateway.com.
*Old Testament teaching that "The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. / All you have made will praise you, O LORD"Psalm 145:9–10. BibleGateway.com. Non-Universalist Christians interpret these Biblical teachings in ways that do not imply Universalism, or point to other verses in the Bible which seemingly contradict Universalist beliefs.  Christian Universalists such as Gary Amirault contend that some key words in the original Greek and Hebrew text of the Bible have been mistranslated to strengthen the traditional argument for eternal hell.Amirault, Gary "Gates of Hell", "Four Letter Word", and "ASW". TentMaker.org.
-->
Sethie (talk) 02:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Biblle Quotes

message: This section was recently deleted, I think the following are significant and have strong enough citation to stay:
The entire section was recently chopped... I think some of it is relevant- here are the ones I think could stay in- input welcome,
"Modern Exponents of Christian Universalism"
 The conversion of Bishop Carlton Pearson to a form of Universalism and his subsequent excommunication by the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops in 2004 caused Christian Universalism to gain increased media attention because of Pearson's popularity and celebrity status. 
In 2007, Eric Stetson and Kalen Fristad gathered a group of thirteen ministers and evangelists from several denominations to found the Christian Universalist Association, an interdenominational organization for churches, ministries, and individuals who believe in Christian Universalism.
About the current state of Christian Universalism, they state: 
"Many Christian philosophers, theologians, writers, and scholars are coming to believe in a Universalist interpretation of Christianity. A rapidly growing number of books are being published on the subject of Christian Universalism. Hundreds of Christian Universalist websites have exploded across the internet over the past few years, run by people with a wide variety of religious backgrounds and viewpoints. It appears that Universalism is beginning to develop into one of the most significant ecumenical movements among Christians of our time." [http://christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/history-of-universalism-part-2/ The History of Universalism (Part Two)
Sethie (talk) 18:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Pearson and the CUA are definitely noteworthy. Of course, the question is do we have the sources? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi! :) I have included the sources in that were used- they look strong enough to me. What do you think of the final quote? Sethie (talk) 19:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that it's a good way of explaining why they exist and what they do. And I also agree with the sentiment personally. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: OK will put the above back in Sethie (talk) 20:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: modern proponents section

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Removed "New Jerusalem" and "Heaven" from lead sentence, while some universalists may have a vision of what Universal Reconciliation looks like, I do not believe that this is a key part of Universalist theology. Maybe we could have a section on universalist vision of what universal reconciliation will look like? Input welcomed Sethie (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead sentence

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I came to believe in universalism and I believe there are many misconceptions. I do not believe all people will be saved without believing the Gospel without a repentant heart. I believe from what I read in scripture that all unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be there until they repent and are reconciled with God. MrLW97 (talk) 22:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The exact mechanics of how reconciliation takes place are non-essential to the doctrine, everyone has their own opinion and there are several archetypes that tend to emerge.  Some believe in instant transformation at death, some think the devil gets saved last and we all have to wait for him before we can enter heaven, etc.  What makes it Christian universalism is the belief in the divinity of Jesus and that He will successfully save every human.  The rest is just details.  I would be inclined to argue that you also have to be orthodox (Nicene Creed) to be a Christian Universalist, but I don't think from a secular view that would be justifiable, as we can simply refer to orthodox Christian universalism if we have the linguistic need to describe those who believe in Christian universalism and are also orthodox.2605:A601:70E2:2500:FDD7:7350:7F41:5CF4 (talk) 03:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misconceptions about universalism 

message: Is there no critique of the idea of 'universalism' from a Christian point of view? There actually should be many, since it is rather misleading and Jesus Christ actually rejected universalism several times. 105.12.1.35 (talk) 09:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: 1.) Your'e wrong. 2.) There can be if you can source and provide reasonable balance, etc. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critical Reception