Talk:Canadian Chinese cuisine

message: Why are there different pages for American and Canadian Chinese food - it's pretty much exactly the same dishes. When I go to New York it's the same food on the displays and menus. Chinese Dumplings are very main stream in Toronto now...I go to Canal Street in Manhattan, in the small back streets...there are small hole-in-the-wall take-out places and that's pretty much all they serve. 
The fortunes in the fortune cookies are probably different.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.154.230 (talk) 03:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the big diff between Canadian/American Chinese food? 

message: As the original poster Swingbeaver noted, cuisine is indeed highly variable across Canada in "Chinese" restaurants.
I removed his regional references to Calgary and Vancouver in the interests of representing all of Canada, also a comment that "sweet and sour" is non-existent in Canada, since here in Ottawa it's universal.
I'm not convinced that there is a black&white difference between American-Chinese and Canadian-Chinese chow mein. (See Buwei Yang Chao's fulmination against the 'dry brittle kind of noodle'.) So, I extended the main article on chow mein and combined the Cantonese and 'regular' chow mein here.
I welcome discussion here to make this representative of all Canadian Chinese takeouts, and perhaps we should retitle it to that to separate it from the many other Chinese cuisines that are appearing so rapidly across Canada. There is a similar suggestion at the American Chinese page.
I propose to (slowly) make the list of dishes encyclopedic with regards to non-English terms in takeouts.
There is lot of relevant discussion at Talk:American Chinese cuisine JohnSankey 13:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of regional references 

message: The Smiling Buddha, now closed and stripped of that wonderful neon (preserved at the Vancouver Museum in Vanier Park, as I recall), was a nightclub, not a restaurant; another picture should be found, perhaps of Vancouver's Pender or Keefer Streets at night.  "The Buddha" had its last days as an operating club during the heyday of the punk movement in the late 1970s and early 19080s.Skookum1 03:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Smiling Buddha pic not appropriate

message: There's a comment in the article that this term is rare in Canada; it's anything but in BC, but unlike other Chinese cuisine here, which dates back to before the railway, I don't recall seeing it on menus (except in the then-rare Beijing-cuising joints) until the influx from Hong Kong in the 1980s.Skookum1 03:32, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Being a Kung Pao fan myself, I've never had any trouble finding it either in Toronto, Kingston, or St. John's, Newfoundland. I think this assertion of rarity either needs a citation or should be removed. SigPig 10:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Removed. - Cybergoth 23:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fer pete's sake, how do I cite the content of menus in "Canadian Chinese" restaurants (aka "Chinese and Western") in the 1970s and back?  Get a bunch of menus from 1965 and 1957 to prove my point?  Perhaps the issue here is what "Canadian Chinese cuisine" should be referring to; types of Chinese cuisine available in Canada, or the kind of adapted Chinese cuisine long common in Canadian towns; specifically Canadian towns in the West, where the style developed, and especially in BC.  And the fact of the matter is that the style of cuisine in question evolved from Cantonese, and partially (only partially) from Szechuan.  Mandarin cooking styles were UNKNOWN to "Canadian Chinese cuisine" restaurant-goers.  Kung pao may be in St. John's and Toronto NOW, but to me it's not part of the style/format of what made "Canadian Chinese cuisine" distinct from Chinese cuisine; nor did I ever see it in "Chinese and Western" restaurants anywhere in BC up until the late 1970s (at the earliest).  This shouldn't be about Chinese food as available in Canada, but about the crosscultural Chinese-Canadian cuisine which is distinct (and as much Canadian as it is Chinese).Skookum1 07:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. However, the article made the point that Kung Pao isn't (present tense) widely available; to reflect the thrust of your statement, I'd say re-insert it to state that it wasn't (past tense) widely available until the advent of Ho Lee Chow et alii. And I agree with your premise: this should be about the unique Chinese-Canadian fusion cuisine. I assume it is analogous to some of the stuff I see on "Iron Chef" as "American style": Trout ice cream? What the h-e-double-hockeysticks were you thinking?!?", as opposed to "Big Mac, hold the pickle". So, go ahead, reinsert the Kung Pao stuff, but change the tense. Reversion is a wonderful thing, when done without rancour to a good-faith booboo. SigPig 08:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I've put Kung Pao chicken back on the list, without comment on it's availability or origin.  I hope that makes up for the booboo. - Cybergoth 18:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kung Pao common in BC

message: I moved the more obvious and truly Chinese-Canadian dishes to the top of the list, added some of the English names most commonly used, as well as of course the soups.  A lot of what's on the list currently, now moved lower down, do not seem to me to be the kind of thing you'd find in a "Chinese and Western" restaurant, nor do I recall seeing them on the elaborate menus at more truly Chinese eateries like the On Lok or Gain Wah (my habitues when I'm in the mood for some chicken and black bean sauce).  The ones moved farther down seem like specialty dishes as opposed to common features of Canadian-Chinese cuisine; as opposed to authentically Chinese food as it is served in Canada (abbre A-C for these comments).  Chow mein, chop suey, won ton, S&S pork, garlic ribs (ginger beef is a new thing in C-C, formerly A-C only but now possibly to be found in C-C restaurants) are all familiar; Lo Mein maybe.  Also deep-fried prawns.....hmmmm....trying to remember what else was common in such places....
Another aspect to this article should be how Chinese cuisine has influenced the indigenous cuisine of especially British Columbia; both in homecooking, normal eating habits, and also in influence in the development of "West Coast Fusion" cuisine.....Skookum1 19:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Toronto's Chinatown might not be the biggest in the world.  However, to say that it is a common Torontonian boast about most things editorializes too much.  Thanks for your contributions though. Cybergoth 21:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Staples section re-arranged 

message: I was not aware that there was popular misconception in the US that Canadian Chinese food is simply the addition of Canadian bacon to American Chinese food.  I think that part should be removed. Cybergoth 01:22, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Canadian bacon?

message: I took these out:
* Ho-Lee-Chow — Locations in the Greater Toronto Area.
* Manchu WOK — Familiar sight in mall food courts nationwide.
* The Mandarin Buffet — Huge buffet well-known throughout southern Ontario.
* Wing's Food Products — Large supplier to Chinese food industy in Canada
I was surprised to see overt advertising for specific food chains and suppliers here.  This is not appropriate, especially since those mentioned are explicity CHAINS, not just classic restaurants or famous mom'n'pops (like the Totem Cafe in Lillooet - best Chinese smorgasbord in the Interior.  Chinese and Western, that is, not transplanted mandarin high cuisine like you might get in Kelowna.....anyway, overt ad-links are not supposed to be valid, so I took them out.  Esepcially because, hmmm, could it be that Wing's Food products has a business relationship with Ho-Lee-Chow or Manchu Wok?  Listing Vancouver's famous historical restaurants (the Pink Pearl, the Yuen Lock, the Ho-Ho) has a relevant point; promoting mall-court food chains does not.  Mentioning a chain well-known in ONTARIO when the history of Chinese-Canadian cuisine is near-entirely based in British Columbia, plus a touch of the Prairies (as opposed to Chinese cuisine in Canada, which is what the new "mandarin buffet" kind of thing is about; actual Chinese-style Chinese food for Chinese buyers; not Chinese food as adapted to Canadian culture, which is what "Chinese and Western Cuisine" is ALL about. Skookum1 02:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think these were put in blatantly as ads or spam.  They might be of interest to non-Canadians visiting this site.  While a chain restaurant based in Ontario might not be as historic as an older mom-and-pop one in Vancouver, it is an indication of the impact of Canadian Chinese cuisine on the larger, contemporary Canadian culture.  I propose that these links be moved to a new section near the bottom of the article.  Feel free to add the names and websites of famous Vancouver restaurants too. Cybergoth 23:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey I like/loathe mall food like anyone else, but the fact is, these chains exist and they serve "Canadian Chinese food".  I think this article should be more inclusive to the whole range of Canadian Chinese cuisine, and not exclude elements which we might consider inauthentic or unpalatable.  This article shouldn't just be on historic Chinese food in British Columbia.  Please add in the names/websites of restaurants that you think are significant. Cybergoth 00:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I've removed all commercial links from the External Links section (i.e. I removed the whole section). See WP:EL. Kla'quot 03:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ad Links Removed 

message: Do you think egg rolls should be on the list of staples?  They've been on pretty much every menu that I've noticed.  I remeber making them in my uncle's restaurant in Southern Ontario in the 70's. - Cybergoth 18:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egg Rolls 

message: Like most Canadian Chinese history pages, there's a lot of over-simplification here, some interesting details missed, and some covert prejudices built into the story (prejudices against non-Chinese history, that is).  The role of camp cooks and also Chinese house servants needs respectable mention, as does the Chinese-Canadian effective lockdown on marketing gardening and wholesale produce throughout BC's history (from day one, in fact, to present), which meant that, among other things, non-Chinese cooks have been used to using bok choy and gai lan in their own cooking for many, many years.  Also the opening dwells on the railway; even though the true beginnings are in the BC and California gold rushes;  the railway helped spread "Chinese and Western" cookery eastwards; but the tradition of Chinese cooks catering to non-Chinese had been established good twenty-five years before the railway came along, and didn't really have to do with the railway workers as such...but cherished mythologies are cherished mythologies, aren't they?  I.e. they don't have to be true to be believed; but that still doesn't make them right/true.....Skookum1 18:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Today Canadian Chinese citizens are the largest visible minority group in Canada, and Chinatowns are in every major Canadian city, with those in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto and Montréal being the largest.
The whole paragraph this sentence ends with is of dubious relevance to cuisine, even without the Toronto brag I already took out; something more relevant to the new influx's impact on Chinese cuisine in Canada would be "the introduction of new forms of Chinese food...etc...and the redefinition of Canadian Chinese cuisine now re-interpreted to mean any Chinese food served in Canada; which is a moving of the linguistic/cultural goalposts.  The newer forms are more distinctly/truly "authentic Chinese".  Point is that there's an "authentic Chinese and Western cuisine" that the new definitions seem to be deliberately blurring; there should be TWO separate sections here because of this; Chinese Canadian cuisine as it developed in isolation from China and in interaction with non-Chinese customers/palates, and the "New Chinese Canadian cuisine", which includes a lot of stuff never heard from before, and which are not part of the restaurant-going experience of joe-blow Canadians; except those with tastes in haute/exotic cuisine.  It's a long way from egg foo yung and egg rolls to most of the things that have been listed overleaf, that's for sure.Skookum1 00:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, there is ambiguity between the "classic" (for lack of a better word) Can/Chinese cuisine and the "new authentic Chinese Canadian" cuisine in this article.  Two separate sections in the History section is a good idea.  Please keep in mind that even some of the "classic" restaurants seem to have some newer menu items, perhaps in an attempt to look more "authentic" to reflect evolving Canadian tastes.  Perhaps a paragraph in the Restaurants section can address the current range of Chinese restaurants, from the classic mom-and-pops to the fast food chains to the new authentic ones?  I think that would tie-in this article nicely with the whole Chinese Cuisine series of articles. - Cybergoth 13:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section needs rewrite 

message: i.e. in order that the many articles which refer/Wikilink either to Canadian Chinese cuisine or American Chinese, such as Chinatown patterns in North America, Chinatowns in North America, Chinatown and no doubt quite a few others, have a common page to refer to; been pondering this for a while, partly because "Chinese and Western cuisine" is not only a specific which avoids the ambiguities of Chinese American cuisine and Canadian Chinese cuisine, as discussed in the previous section, but also because it's by far the most common restaurant sign that I can remember, at least here in Canada and as I recall also in Washington State; not sure about California.  The idea is not a merge between the two American/Canadian cuisine articles (which really discuss much the same thing...), but something a little more than a disambig page commenting on the unique menu of the frontier-west and its incursions into urban/suburban life before the new era of immigration and the growth in "authentic" cuisine offerings in North America.  Especially on the Chinatowns in North America page and the Chinatown patters in North America page, currently the link is only to Chinese American cuisine, which leaves the Canadian side out; and there's really not much difference, especially at the "classic" level which IMO "Chinese and Western" describes so much better.  And myself, I like the dried noodles; but I was raised on the Chun King canned stuff, like many "westerners", and all the Chinese restaurants we went to used them also (including the immortal Prawn Garden in Mission, British Columbia, still there and still excellent after all these years; and still "classic" despite, as you note in the previous section, the introduction of new, more authentic dishes as well as new Chinese and Western dishes like spicy beef (invented in Calgary, as I recall).  I'll dig up some "Chinese and Western" sign-pics if you want; I think one of the shots on my http://www.cayoosh.net/goldmile.html has a sign vislble, I'll have to look; 1898; but it may only say "Chinese food", I can't remember.Skookum1 01:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like you are describing a History of Chinese and Western Cuisine article, or perhaps Chinese and Western Cuisine (1898-1959)? - Cybergoth 04:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Something like that; the dates are more like 1848-198x, though; I don't think the "History of..." is necessary or apt, considering that it's as much an intercultural/social page, given the role of smalltown Chinese restaurants, and Chinese camp/cannery cooks through the West Coast/BC Interior/Prairies/North; 1848 being the onset of the California gold rush, and the institution of Chinese and Western cuisine lasted well into my high school years (grad 1972) and beyond.  The impact on non-Chinese palates of "authentic Chinese" cuisine didn't really begin, even in BC, until the 1980s.Skookum1 06:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I recall being able to get authentic Cantonese food in Toronto's Chinatown in the late 70's.  Anyways, it sounds like a good page - I'm looking forward to seeing it. - Cybergoth 13:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there's certainly an overlap - as there continues to be today, in fact.  The Yen Lock on Pender Street in Vancouver has been serving quality dim sum since the 1960s or earlier, and authentic authentic-Chinese food (to coin a hyphenation) has always been available in Vancouver's Chinatown if you knew where to go; and most places had a Chinese and Western menu as well as an authentic menu; often with the latter only in Chinese; the Ho-Ho, the New Diamond are old standards.  Outside of Chinatown, places like the On Lok (1 blk E of Victoria & Hastings) have dished up authentic-Chinese food well back into the '60s, maybe before (I'm too young to know when they started up; the On Lok was already established when I was first taken there in '72; it's been a favourite with non-Chinese customers because of the ample portions, cheap prices, wide variety and that it's open until 4 in the morning or so and doesn't mind serving drunks, and/or white drunks ;p ).  But the overlap continues, especially in the farther 'burbs which haven't been much sinified yet - although non-Chinese palates definitely have, and any of the Chinese and Western places in the Lower Mainland will generally tilt towards authentic nowadays; quality of ingredients and range of items much greater than before, though not the complexity or range of an authentic-Chinese restaurant; although most will still offer the classic menu items, as they're expected (BC-style chow mein, chop suey, egg foo yung, and of course fortune cookies, which AFAIK are a North American innovation - are they in the article, BTW?  No classic Chinese and Western meal, sit-down, delivery or take-out, would be complete without them).  Also, within the Lower Mainland, many small cafes which serve Western-style food for the most part, but are Chinese run, tend to offer the Chinese and Western items; "greasy spoons" but not all were greasy.  These were ubiquitous in Vancouver in the same way Chinese corner groceries were (until the advent of 7-11 and Mac's); and Chinese home-cookery was also common in non-Chinese homes, generally the canned/packaged variety like the Chun King brand I mentioned; most Lower Mainlanders learned to use chopsticks almost as young as they'd learned to use knife-and-fork; not very well, perhaps, and without the appropriate etiquette concerning the usage of the sticks, but still remarkable in terms of "intercultural fusion" or whatever you want to call it.  But outside the Lower Mainland, other than in major centres like Kamloops or Kelowna or Greater Victoria, Chinese and Western places - or Chinese cooks in Western-menu restaurants that also serve some Chinese dishes - are institutions in most small towns, and in fact something of a social anchor-point; and all of them often have a house specialty of one kind or another; not sure if deep-fried ice cream fritters are a Chinese dish or not (dairy, so probably not, huh?) but there was this one place in Yale that made them to die for.  I could rattle off twenty towns or more where I know there's a Chinese and Western-style restaurant, with or without the sign, or where an otherwise-ordinary restaurant or hotel cafe has as much of a Chinese-food menu as it does burgers, liver and onions, hot turkey/roast beef sandwiches and the usual smalltown/trucker fare etc. And the only Chinese in town may be the cooks and their families, in fact; the Chinese smorgasbord in Lillooet is a classic as is the institution of the Chinese smorgasbord, although in recent years in Vancouver the smorgasbord name - another bit of intercultural fusion dating to the founding of Vancouver, where Scandinavian loggers encouraged the Chinese cook to put out steam tables so they could eat Scandinavian-style - has become "Oriental buffet" or "Asian buffet" for the most part.  But smorgs are pretty common throughout BC, as are small eateries serving the "classic" menu, and not much in the way of "authentic" - So Chinese and Western is very much alive, even today.  I'll post a note on Chinese American cuisine before I launch this though, referring to this discussion; I'm curious as to the best way to reference the page, i.e. to lay out the definitions at the start of the page; and I'd like to dig up a restaurant sign or two for illustration....Skookum1 16:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, fortune cookies are uniquely "North-American Chinese".  I'm pretty sure they were invented in the US.  The Chinese smorgasborg is interesting, and I'm glad you put it in the Canadian Chinese cuisine article - it really is uniquely Canadian/British Columbian.  How the restaurant business has changed!  Nowadays, a lot of the "Japanese" and sushi restaurants in Toronto are run by Chinese and Koreans!  I don't know how you want to start off the article.  A picture of a restaurant/sign would be nice. - Cybergoth 17:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Might have to take a trip to the Valley - the Fraser Valley - to find one; if the Golden Pagoda in Langley City is still there that's what its sign used to say; also the Prawn Gardens in Mission but it was rebuilt after a fire recently and I don't know what the new sign says; the old Valley Inn there is gone, I think.  Otherwise it's more likely farther afield in the Interior or over on the Island; I may go to Quesnel, way up in the Cariboo, later this week, and I'm sure I'll see it somewhere en route, so I'll keep a camera handy (film, not digital, so would have to wait for cash to do the processing...).  Might be able to dig up an archival one somewhere, we'll see; that sign is almost as vintage as "Men's Entrance" vs. "Ladies and Escorts Only" on beer parlour exteriors.  About the Japanese places - I remember when all there was in Vancouver was Koko on East Hastings (still there), Edo and Fuji in Japantown (Powell St; I think Fuji's still there) and Kobe Steak House (still there); the emphasis at Edo and Fuji was on teriyaki, tempura and sukiyaki, with sushi not so pushed on western customers though likely fully available for Japanese guests (they're right near the docks); never been in Koko (means, AFAIK, "this place" in Japanese).  All of a sudden KA-BOOM and there's sushi everywhere, as well as teriyaki and robata houses, sometime in the mid-early '80s; but it wasn't until the 1990s that Chinese restaurateurs got into the act, and Koreans are relative newcomers to Vancouver in general (other than completely assimilated Korean War-era refugees); but in general I would NEVER eat in a Chinese-run sushi joint (on the advice of a close Japanese-Canadian friend - sansei I think  is the term; his parents were nisei -, who was horrified when we walked in on a Chinese-run sushi place in North Van in the late '90s; sure enough the sushi was not quite cold and we did get sick; while some of the Korean places can be quite good; still not up to par with a Japanese-run place but also generally cheaper; not to be found in the "Little Ginza" off and around Robson St, though, which is all high-end (Kamei and its blue-plate twin Kamei Royale and Tsunami are two of the best-known/highest-rated); but you can sushi as bar-food in nightclubs here, so it's a pretty wide range.  A new "Kimono Restaurant (Japanese food)" as its sign says, with the parentheses being the subtitle on the sign, just opened next to my gym at Hornby & Smithe, downtown-nervous-central; it's completely Chinese-owned/staffed, but looks to be good for teriyaki, et al. There was a time when "Oriental food" on a sign meant only Chinese; now it can mean anything, although of course the prejudice now is to use "Asian food" or, more commonly, "Asian buffet", as it's usually those places that have cross-over menus incorporating Thai, Korean, Japanese, Chinese etc.  The first Indonesian restaurant here, BTW, Rumah Bali on Main, was the first palce in Vancouver to get a five-star Michelin rating; small, dingy, but great food, still (I first ate there back around 1981).Skookum1 18:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal for [[Chinese and Western cuisine]] page

message: After reading these two articles, I think, due to the countries' close culture link, results in significant overlap in content. Anyone up for a merge? SYSS Mouse (talk) 17:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's why the phrase "Chinese and Western Cuisine" or "Chinese and Western Food" was brought up a while back (these being name formats seen on restaurant signs, still today)...but that's a ref to the authentic style developed in North America, the greasy spoon-truck stop-corner cafe variety plus the burgers  and liver/fries etc other-side-of-the-menu, rather than Chinese-from-China haute cuisine as it is now produced/consumed/available in North America as a result of large-scalle immigration on the one hand and the trendiness of gourmet food and gourmands on the other.  That issue has to be resolved, as well as maybe a merge of the two being needed, the name of the merged article is a problem.  "North American Chinese cuisine" isn't right either....Skookum1 (talk) 17:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is the "the greasy spoon-truck stop-corner cafe variety plus burgers  and liver/fries etc other-side-of-the-menu" part that overlaps. (I  have a COI issue on this as I am employed in that industry. I would not elaborate any further) SYSS Mouse (talk) 15:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It may overlap, but it's the original context of the terms; and I don't think COI applies in this case ;-).  This isn't about your restaurant, it's about the cuisine.Skookum1 (talk) 16:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I think they should be merged. The content is 99% exactly the same as the American Chinese article. Kwertii (talk) 20:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, but given the nature of the content and the older meaning perhaps Chinese cuisine in North America would be more accurate for what these articles have become; an article on the "Chinese and Western Cuisine" concept seems needed, separately, but is much harder to cite.  BTW just wondering about the currency of the term "Chinese smorgasbord" - as with Skid Road, both Gastown and old Seattle lay claim to the origin of this term/concept, whcih resulted when Scandinavian loggers asked a Chinese cook to lay things out smorg-style; this is now usually called "Chinese Buffet" or "Asian Buffet" but it remains common in "Western and Chinese" restaurant offerings, and at one time was a common neon sign in Vancouver on the Dragon Inn drive-in chain.....smorgs remain common in small BC towns, e.g. teh Totem Cafe in Lillooet for one.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian and American Chinese cuisine 

message: Hello.  This article has been tagged as unreferenced since 2007.  That is far too long.  Just now, I've added an OR tag.  Please find references and add them.  Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 06:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple issues 

message: Canada has Tibetan and Uighur restaurants. Should these be included here; are they notable enough for their own articles; or are these essentially the same as the recipes served in their native lands? 142.122.150.221 (talk) 09:25, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tibetan and Uighur cuisine