Talk:Hocus-pocus

message: Shouldn't it be Hocus pocus (magic)?  The article doesn't usually capitalize Pocus, so I'm not sure why it's capitalized in the title.  NickelShoe 01:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed it WP:BOLDLY.  Jujutsuan (talk | contribs) 15:37, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Move?

message: "Another phrase from the Bible, possibly misunderstood by Romans who thought of Christians as an incestuous, cannibalistic cult (as described by Tacitus), might be from the holy ritual: hoc est poculum ("this is the cup"), a phrase from the Last Supper, used in Roman Catholic rituals."
This is rather entertaining idea that actual ROMANS could have misunderstood such a simple phrase as "hoc est poculum" pronounced in their own language, and distort it to the "hocus pocus". Another problem with this is that such a phrase distorted in antiquity is unlikely to contain 'h', as 'h' was completely silent in spoken Latin fromt he time of Cicero and in the subsequent Christian period in antiquity, so it could not have been transferred to script and/or modern languages.
The presence of the 'h' in hocuspocus, and popularity of the word in European languages, make the derivation from Church Latin "hoc est corpus" plausible. 82.210.159.30 14:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romans 

message: For example I find online at http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19991007 the following -
Hocus pocus is only slightly less of a mystery. It first appears as a the name of a juggler and conjurer in the seventeenth century. The term was common in juggling and other performances at the turn of the eighteenth century when the cleric Tillotson wrote, "In all probability these common juggling words of hocus pocus are nothing else but a corruption of 'hoc est corpus', by way of ridiculous imitation of the priests of the Church of Rome in their trick of Transubstantiation."
''
I have always been told by magicians that Hocus Pocus is the most famous magician of them all, because everybody knows his name.
:Hocus Pocus Junior in 1634 literally wrote the book on the cups and balls, but I have no idea if this "Junior" fellow and Hocus Pocus were related, or even the same person. There's even a picture of him! See the text online at http://www.hocuspocusjr.com and more about his life here: http://www.hocuspocusjr.com/hocvspocvsjr.htm -- Yekrats (talk) 17:42, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wasn't Hocus Pocus the name of a real magician? 

message: Sources, please. Without sources Wikipedia becomes "rumors". Thanks http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:Judas_Ali-Qu--87.217.43.79 (talk) 22:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Also, following the trail back of earlier sequential edits, I see that the first quotation in the main article, from John Tillotson, did originally contain the offensive words "ridiculous" and "trick", but they have been edited out on at least one previous occasion. I have inserted ellipses in their place, and referenced to this discussion page for the full quotation. Milkunderwood (talk) 22:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Editing these out seems pretty silly. First, "offensive" seems like an exaggeration even for a Catholic; second, the words provide relevant context--Tillotson isn't unbiased; he seems to think Transubstantiation itself is silly "hocus-pocus", making him more likely to like that etymology. 76.31.27.51 (talk) 04:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Hoc est corpus > Hoc est porcus > Hocus pocus
porcus(Latin) = pig, swine   /    corpus(Latin)= corpse, body
Most of the magicians were satanists! Böri (talk) 12:10, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  from Hoc est porcus

message: In Rabbi Joshua Trachtenberg's 1939 book, Jewish Magic and Superstition, (Republished in 2008 by Forgotten Books.), an unusual etymology for this phrase is proffered.  On page 105, Rabbi Trachtenberg (1904-1959) posits that the phrase "Akos Pakos" is the source of hocus pokus.  This phrase in turn is part of a 15th century German-Jewish manuscript that itself was translated into Latin.  Subsequently this German manuscript was translated into Hebrew by Italian Jews and then adopted by German Jews unaware of its origins.  All this is in the frame of reference of how mystical terms in medieval Judasism came into being.  For those with an interest in exploring Jewish Mysticism, I recommend this book.  It is rather dry reading (It was Rabbi Trachenberg's PhD thesis from Columbia U.)
As references Trachtenberg cites various works by authors including Moris Gudemann, J. Perles (Graetz Jubalschrift),Max Grunwald (MGIV, V (1930), E Levy, REJ (LXXXII 1926), and Moritz Steinschneider (Cat. Munich, P. 109)
How convincing this is is hard to say, but It's the first reference to this source that I have ever found, having looked into hocus pocus for some time now.  As with so many mysteries, it is not the dearth of clues that leaves us blind, but rather the multiplicity of same.
Nice to find a little gem in an obscure book now and then.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Postrow11 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  A medevial Jewish source for hocus pokus?