Talk:United Kingdom/Archive 11

message: The article says 
:"Universal state education was introduced for the primary level in 1870 and secondary level in 1900 (except in Scotland where it was introduced in 1696, see Education in Scotland).[82]"
following the Education in Scotland link leads us to Education Act 1696 which says 
:"it allowed Church of Scotland presbyteries to set up a school, funded by a tax on the landowner ... if the landowner failed to do so. ... This law remained the basis of Scottish education until 1872, when education became the responsibility of the state."
To me this doesn't quite equate to "universal state education" but rather to Church regulated schooling (albeit it with the funding possibly coming from the landowner). Now I presume that in England and Wales at this time there were plenty of Church schools funded by the Church of England and others (although I'm sure not one in every parish). It seems to me that the implication from the sentence in this article 'that Scotland had a fully functioning state school system way in advance of the rest of Britain and that it was a secular state school system is perhaps misleading.  Jooler 08:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind the rest of Britain, Scotland had a fully functioning universal primary education system way in advance of the rest of Europe. The Scottish government (and by implication its UK successor) mandated the universal school system in the 1696 act -- and also mandated that it be provided by the Kirk -- so it's not unreasonable to state that it was a state system even though the state tasked a designated NGO with making the provision rather than doing so itself. However, if you think it misleading I would have no objection to the removal of the word "state". To me the important point is that it was a "universal system", not that it was a "state system". -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm beginning to wonder on the accuracy of this whole paragraph. It seems to be a comparison of apples and oranges. The provision of education is one thing, compulsory attendance is another. Here it states that the 1833 Factory Act introduced compulsory 2 hours education for 9-13 yr olds (confirmed on the Wikipedia article) - thus there must have been schools (of one sort or another) provided to educate them which would amount to the provision of some form of "universal education" in advance of the 1870 date given above. The page states that the  1870 Elementary Education Act allowed school boards to insist on the attendance of children between the ages of five and 13, thus the compulsory attendance was in effect if the there was an established board and it had obliged itself of the right to compel a child to attend. The Scottish act of makes no mention of compulsory attendance, perhaps someone can locate information on this subject for Scottish schools. As for England and Wales - it is stated here that in England a survey of "12,000 parishes in 1816, found that 3,500 had no school, 3,000 had endowed schools of varying quality, and 5,500 had unendowed schools of even more variable quality." - a sorry state to be sure. It also states "In 1816, 875,000 of the country's 1.5m children 'attended a school of some kind for some period'. By 1835 (after the Factory Act) the figure was 1.45m out of 1.75m. If this sounds fairly impressive, it should be noted that by 1835 the average duration of school attendance was just one year." - are there any figures to compare this with the Scottish education system of the time? (as an aside does a superior Scottish education system explain the large number of Scottish engineers of the period?) Jooler 17:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes,  the parishes in Scotland had the obligation to provide a minimal education and promising, but poor, students were offered scholarships to further education. Hence many offspring of poor families later became engineers and doctors. docboat 03:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education in Scotland

message: This table seems faintly ridiculous to me and gives unofficial terminology far too much precedence - NI as a 'province' or Scotland as a 'kingdom' is inaccurate and reflects nothing. I'd personally advocate removing the entire 'status' column there.--Breadandcheese 19:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added "status" column according to . If the explanation of the source is not correct, please delete the column. ― 韓斌/Yes0song (談笑 筆跡 다지모) 15:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Administrative subdivisions table 

message: I was just wondering why the opening line has been recently changed from saying the UK is a country, to just saying its a Kingdom, Can someone just clarify this for me cheers.
(INsalford 00:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stating that the United Kingdom is a kingdom is ridiculous.  What next?  The Republic of Ireland is a republic?  I changed it back to country.  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 00:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems sensible. "Kingdom" doesn't describe the modern political entity of the UK well anyway, better to stick with country. Deus Ex 19:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Country 

message: Most of the material in the lead paragraph was removed, without edit summary or explanation, by an anonymous editor on August 24. The material was sourced and relevant, and I don't think the secularization material should have been removed. Viewfinder 18:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, and to describe the UK as a Secular state is just plain wrong. I reverted. Jooler 07:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not wrong at all to describe the UK as being "today a predominantly secular state" as that is exactly what the UK is. Further there is source/citation for this. Christianity is the traditional religion for sure, and this highlighted in the Christianity section.Vexorg 21:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is completely wrong to do so! You don't seem to understand what "state" means. We have an established church in the form of the Church of England, i.e. The Church of England is part of the state and therefore the state cannot, by definition, be secular in any way shape or form! You could argue (although I wouldn't necessarily agree) that there is a predominantly secular society, but the state and the society are not the same thing! Valiant Son (talk) 01:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Vexorg. Until The Church of England is dis-established, the Head of State is no longer also the Head of the Church of England, the Lords Spiritual are removed from the House of Lords, and the Prime Minister is no longer involved in Appointment of Church of England bishops, Britain cannot be described as a secular state. Far from it. What the populace practise is an entirely different matter. Jooler 01:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes your right. It could haev been worded better. Sorted.Vexorg 04:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It is not just the wording but the content that I am not happy about. There is room for compromise, but please can we agree on the wording here before editing the main article again. Thank you. Viewfinder 10:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What in the content are you not happy about? My edits improved the opening paragraph to reflect the current religious climate in the UK. Something which is important for a reader not familiar with the UK. Further you say opposition "among other editors". Just one ( Jooler ) who made a good point about the description of "secular state" which I subsequently improved. There seems to be a more balanced debate here .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom#Misuse_of_.27secular.27 I shall not immediately fix your hasty reversions just yet.  Vexorg 17:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  From what I can see it looks like you have an issue with showing the current secularity of the UK. Vexorg's improvements did not water down the extent of Christianity in the UK at all, but introduced the articles to show how things are in 2007. In both this and the Religion in the UK article, even after Vexorg's edits, Christianity still takes thje starring role. As it should do, given that it's the majority religion. Vexorg's additions were appropriate IMO81.77.54.242 19:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  The words "the UK has become increasingly secular" have been retained and I agree with that retention. Vexorg specifically removed Christianity from the lead paragraph. Viewfinder 19:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Vexorg specifically removed Christianity from the lead paragraph" - I can see you're specifically upset with that judging by your hasty reverts. But why is that such a problem? As 81.77.54.242 has said, Christianity is the major religion and in both wiki pages it rightly takes up the majority of copy. Your reversion simply starts the article with a description of those identifying themselves as Christian based upon a census that's nearly 7 years old. My wording and content in the opening paragraph is much more accurately descriptive as it tells the reader both of the 'theocratic aspect' of the Church of England/Monarch relationship and also tells of the prodominently secular society in the UK today. The is no 'pro-secular bias from a political point of view. It's simply a fact that UK society today is mainly secular and it's important to put that across when describing the extent of religion in the UK. Your reversion also removed some important info regarding the dynamics of religious adherence in the UK. My edits described the Christian adherency in the 2001 census and how things were changing/declining by citing the Tearfund aurvey. I put this in the Christian section becuase that's where it belongs. The opening paragraphs of the articles should talk about religion in the UK in general including secularity and breifly decribe the connection between church and state and the brioadly secular nature of society. And that's exactly what I did.Vexorg 21:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  I would also add that much of what I 'inserted' recently was material that was in the article many months ago that someone had deleted. While I agree this should be discussed with any interested parties, 'hasty reverts' don't help the matter either. Anyway, in view of your comments I have made some adjsutmentsm but will allow more time for comment. Thanks Vexorg 23:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  I've left this for a few days as requested and there doesnt' appear to be any urgency from anyoen else. I've now made some edits for the reasons I've outlined above and also added a mention for Christianity in the first paragraph.Vexorg 02:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text:  What's wrong with the word secular? It descrbes UK society perfectly. i.e one that is largely non-religous in the practising sense and one that is equally accepting of all faiths and non faiths. On the contrary to being a word to avoid it's the most fitting description of UK society.Vexorg 23:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think the word secular should be avoided. BTW I say this as an atheist. So no axe to grind here. Jooler 01:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's no valid reason to avoid the word secular. It's the best term for the UK populace.Vexorg 21:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion revisited