Talk:Semikhah

message: Semicha is certainly still given, and rabbis are referred to as "having semicha", but the present-day semicha is not identical to THE semicha as given in the times of the Bible and Mishnah. By changing the title, you are suppressing obvious fact, and you will be reverted every time you do this. JFW | T@lk 19:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Given

message: It seems to me that this article is lacking a section on the actual mechanism of classical semicha- how many people can receive it from one person, how many people a person can receive it from, etc. I would really like add this section, but I don't have the time. Any takers? Ayinyud 10:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mechanism of Semicha 

message: Please do not forget that some believe semicha survived the centuries as "The Unbroken Chain of Transmission." In centuries where actual laying on of hands was not performed it is believed semicha continued through rabbinical appointment as well as through the transmission of the teaching of the Torah. Please do not forget the spirit of the Judaic people that has never been broken throughout the centuries. There are a few sources claiming semicha was transmitted privately and in secret just the same as their faith was secretly observed even though pretending to convert to Catholocism, Islam, etc. and while this may be a result of wishful thinking, this certainly does seem to be a possibility worthy of further research.
Dr. C
:"Some" believe anything.  This is Wikipedia, not Uncyclopedia.  -- Zsero (talk) 21:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unbroken Chain of Transmission

message: Who posted this bunch of crock that Semicha was broken? It's this kind of anti-semitism that belongs in Natzi camps! Like was written above, why can the Catholics boast Apostolic Succession, although there are no historically accurate data to back them up, and yet Semicha , with historical backing, can not? 
Remmo (talk) 01:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh lawd, they're all coming out of the woodwork now.  Or is it the same nutter using different names?  -- Zsero (talk) 06:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bunch of Crock!

message: This article is parsimonious in content and fails to deliver a neutral point of view. Rather then barging in selfishly editing I would prefer to civilly discuss this matter further and attempt a joint edit text that we can then propose on the basis of our mutual agreement.
CWatchman (talk) 17:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not going to happen, because the position you are trying to promote is complete bollocks.  It's not even a notable fringe theory.  It doesn't belong in this article.  -- Zsero (talk) 17:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing Needed

message: Remmo, I am assuming from some things you have written that you have read some of my previous material. If so you should know that a pacific approach will win a permanent war 
while an aggressive win will only retain it's victory as long as you persist in protective aggression. You have not won Zsero ...you have only alienated him. If you fail to aggressively guard this article he will eventually slip back in. It may be moments, it may be days, it may be months, it may be years. He will return and make the changes he feels are correct. Revision of history is sometimes necessary but one has to take the rebuttal until it becomes accepted. Yesterdays heresy is today's orthodoxy. Yesterdays revelation is today's common sense. 
Remmo, Zsero, feel free to civilly debate this off-Wiki by writing me at: CWatchman2@gmail.com 
Zsero, I apologize if I have caused trouble. 
You are simply adhering to the majority viewpoint. I am the heretic. I understand that. However, I ask not that you accept my heresy, I only ask that acknowledge you understand it.
Thank you,
CWatchman (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Leave it alone

message: Heterodoxy and Orthodoxy of opinion and historicity notwithstanding, every article on wikipedia, inlcuding this one, must adhere to our guidelines and policies on verifiability, reliable sources, and point-of-view neutrality. As per WP:NPOV#Undue weight, fringe theories are usually not considered appropriate for articles as they stand. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 23:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Depends on context, but usually not. -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Which source is phantom? -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, as the pre-eminent sage of his era, yes. Neutral point of view does not mean a lobotomized point of view. Please read the policy carefully. Thanks! -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia policies and guidlines 

message: Verifiability? Reliable sources? Point of view neutrality?
Are the comments "seems to have" and " likely" verifiable?
:Depends on context, but usually not. -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which source is phantom? -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, as the pre-eminent sage of his era, yes. Neutral point of view does not mean a lobotomized point of view. Please read the policy carefully. Thanks! -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Double Talk

message: Your parsing is MUCH better this time around. 
CWatchman (talk) 23:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bravo, Zsero

message: One of the most intriguing stories ever told is that of the ancient chain of Semicha.
Today it is almost universally accepted that the chain of Semicha was broken around the fifth century AD and was forever lost. Recent research, however, has uncovered at least four remarkable sources of possible intact Semicha.
Semicha is the rabbinical ordination classically transmitted by the laying on of hands. Moses ordained Joshua and the seventy elders through this transmission of authority (Num 27:15-23, Num 11: 16-25, Deut. 34: 9). Their successors in turn ordained others. This hands on transmission  continued until around the fifth century at which time it is believed to have ceased to exist. 
But G-d said Semicha was unto all generations forever. Is G-d not capable of preserving this gift He so graciously bestowed upon his people. Without Semicha there is no succession of  Sanhedrin nor a priesthood. Without the priesthood there is no building of the Temple. Without the Temple to where will Messiah come ?  (Rambam said, “If there is one with uninterrupted semicha, you do not require everyone’s agreement”. Jewish people today believe in the absolute transmission of Torah and Mesorah from Rabbineau Moshe to the present day but believe Semicha ceased centuries ago. But if Hashem preserved the Torah why could He not also preserve Semicha? There are three sources of possible Semicha to consider: (1) A Lost Tribe of Israel (Lemba's) (2) Isaac Ben Luria (3) Remnant in Europe (4) Teacher/student transmission. Today I will give more space to sources one and four beginning with the first source.
(1) A LOST TRIBE OF ISRAEL: THE LEMBA
" I would like to mention that we, the Jewish community are guilty--guilty because we never accepted what the Lemba had always maintained...until [the] genetic proof recently ; that their story was a part of ours. We are guilty because we rejected them. " (Dr. Rudo Mathiva).
Approximately 2,500 years ago, a group of Jews left Judah settling in Yemen populating a city called Senna. Unfavorable conditions compelled them to journey many miles until settling in and around Zimbabwe. Similar to other Jews during the Diaspora they assimilated local customs and genes from the local gene pool. For centuries these people passed down their tradition to their children and adamantly claimed they were Jewish. Unlike the locals they believed in one God, Shabbot, Kosher dietary laws, circumcision, the lunar calendar, Torah, and many other Jewish customs. They not only claimed to be Jewish and of the Cohanim but they also boasted an unbroken Semicha. Academia laughed at these black people proclaiming to be Jews. They were in a delusion...or were they they? In 1997 critical research data indicated that a large proportion of contemporary Jewish Cohanim (those claiming ancestry from the priestly line of Aaron the High Priest) share a set of Y chromosomal genetic markers, known as the Cohen Modal Haplotype, which has been determined to have derived from a single common ancestor dating back to the very time in which the Torah recorded Aaron existed. Scientific calculations which were based on the high rate of genetic similarity of today's Cohanim resulted in the highest "paternity-certainty" rate that has been ever been recorded in population genetics studies. Scientists found that 45 percent of Ashkenazi priests and 56 percent of Sepharic priests have the cohen genetic signature, while in Jewish populations in general the frequency rate is 3 to 5 percent. When they tested the priestly tribe of Lemba they were astonished to discover they had 53 percent! They had unique genetic markers found only in the Jewish communities. Dr. Tudar Parfitt says "It turned out what they are saying about themselves is substantially correct." Geneticist Trevor Jenkins said the tests turned out to "prove consistent with Lemba oral history." Science had conclusively proven the Lemba carried the Priestly genes dating back to the time of Aaron and Moses just as they had always proclaimed. 
Numerous other historical traditions they proclaimed turned out to be true. The unknown city that the Lemba claimed they journeyed from was discovered ("Journey to the Vanished City", Dr. Tudor Parfitt). An artifact they claimed they possessed and lost hundreds of years ago was discovered in a an ancient cave. Dr. Mathiva said, "Old maps of the Holy Land have now revealed that there was a place called Lemba way back BCE." She further stated that the Jewish community was left with a moral dilemma as to their responsibility and future obligations to the Lemba and concluded saying, "Now that we know, can we continue to pretend they do not exist?" 
We have an even GREATER dilemma. If their claims of Jewish origin, Cohanim decent , names of lost cities, etc. proved to be true....what about their claim to possess an unbroken line of Semicha!!! They have persistently claimed an unbroken succession of ordination...the Semicha.
Please keep in mind Semicha has alledgedly been conferred on clans of Lemba that were Cohanim as well as those that were not but were nevertheless considered Jewish. Those recieving Semicha are considered Priests although most are born into into the Priesthood as well as recieving Semicha.
Magdel le Roux says the Lemba still has the priesthood to this very day and the priest traditionally passes his teaching and priesthood on to his son in perpetual succession. He reports the priest said to him:
"The succession is just from our forefathers right up to this generation and it will just continue like that. You see there is just a house of priesthood like in the Old Testament and this priesthood is not something of imposition of something you do to yourself. It was something bestowed to a particular house by G-d." (D:A:4; italics mine).
Would such a Semicha be halackally acceptable? It may be time for us to reconsider what is halackally acceptable transmission of Semicha when faced with dispersion and hardship. Even Elijah when in exile accepted food from non-kosher unclean birds until such a time he could resume a normal kosher life. Rabbi Yisroel Shklover said a dispersed group distant from the rest of Klal Yisroel before certain halachic Rabbinical rules were declared would be exempt from those rules not having accepted nor heard them. 
One thing is for certain...the Lemba and their claims of Semicha are here...and they are not going to just "go away."
(2) ISAAC BIN LURIA
Isaac Bin Luria (ARI) was a mystic whom many felt was a holy man with divine favor. He claimed the prophet Elijah, who had been his godfather in his babyhood, paid him frequent visits, initiating him into sublime truths. Rabbi Chayim Vital said the ARI increased his piety, asceticism, purity and holiness until he reached a level where Eliyahu HaNavie (Elijah the prophet) would constantly reveal himself to him, speaking to him "mouth to mouth," teaching him these mysteries. " According to scripture Elijah was one of two men who had never tasted death. This would not have been a "phantom" but the real Elijah. If this is true then there would be no doubt Semicha continued because the ARI's line is still presently extent. However this is impossible to verify and smacks a bit as being Quixotic but is still an avenue for the mystically minded to explore.
(3) REMNANT IN EUROPE
It is claimed that Semicha survived intact in a remnant of Jewish people in Europe. A small group of Messianic Jews as well as independent orthodox groups claim to have received preserved Semicha from this and other lines. Further research is needed before I can accurately publish the details which I can do at a later date. 
Also we must not forget there have been many laymen "balebatim" who have semicha and are officially "ordained" but do not practice as rabbis at all.
4) TEACHER/STUDENT TRANSMISSION
We must seriously consider the theorem that in times when persecution prohibited the existence of ordained Rabbi’s that the father automatically became Rabbi of the home and passed his rabbinical blessing to his son (or children) until such time the classical form of Semicha was able to be resumed (after all Rabbi does mean "teacher"). Perhaps we need to reconsider what is halackally acceptable transmission of Semicha when faced with insurmountable persecution and threat of death.
It is possible, no PROBABLE, that in time of unavoidable secrecy and threat of death that Hashem accepted the following as transmission of Semicha : Transmission of Torah from teacher to student (or father to son) consisting of Torah teaching, pronunciation of blessing, and the physical embrace and/or kiss. This would have been an acceptable link in the unbroken chain of Semichut until such a time that the classical Semicha could be resumed by Rambam's suggestion of all the sages of Israel coming together, unanimously ordaining judges, and then resuming classical Semicha. This is the most practical and pragmatic approach . If , as many believe, there was an unbroken chain of transmission of Torah, there by necessity must be a teacher to transmit it and a student to receive it, and this done in perpetual succession. 
Consider the precision that the Torah was preserved in and passed on in times of aggressive prohibition. Consider the intricate , detailed, typologies involved in Pesach observance. Consider the multitude of details in Jewish observances accurately handed down from generation to generation of families forbidden to observe such custom even at the threat of death and extinction. Do you...COULD you...imagine for one single moment that some Jewish family or families failed to pass on something as critical as Semicha? The vast interactive, connecting, branching, web of of Jewish culture has spun a geometric weave of cultural preservation in the metropolitans, prison camps, jungles, and villages throughout the far reaches of the earth. To think the anointed, ethereal substance of Semicha came to an end is to strike the very heart of faith as well as the credibility of human potential. Hashem is much wiser then we could ever imagine and what He has established He has the ability to preserve. There are no DNA tests, no historical discoveries, no law in the land, nor religious body that can prove to be as dependable a source of evidence as the way and word of Hashem. He has preserved the Jewish people, their traditions, and the Cohanim in the brutal face of Dispersion, holocausts, prison, and centuries of exile. Hitler could not burn her traditions, Nazi's could not imprison them, and exile could not silence her voice. Through the stygian darkness of night by the candles of Shabbot precious oral history and religious traditions were secretly passed down from generation to generation as her persecutors stalked her doors firing their brutal ammunition over her weary head. When the smoke of historical debates have cleared and skeptics reluctantly lift their heads from the fox holes...before them standing undaunted will be proof of Hashem's perpetual Semicha...to all generations forever.
"THEIR ANOINTING shall surely be an EVERLASTING priesthood throughout your generations." (Ex. 40: 15)
CWatchman (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: In Search of the Unbroken Chain of Semicha

message: Although it is not yet known if indeed they are one of the Ten Lost Tribes, the Nasarini's of Malabar are said to to indeed be of Hebrew heritage . (Ref. Dr. Asahel Grants' 'The Nestorians or the Lost Tribes of Israel' ). Known as the Syrian-Malabar, or Saint Thomas Christians, they follow a Hebrew-Syriac Christian tradition saturated with many Jewish elements. They are some of the earliest people who joined Christianity in India and also with many Malabar Jews from the pre-Christian Diaspora as well as the post Christian Diaspora (40 AD to the fourth century after which it is claimed Semicha ceased). The Saint Thomas Nasari 's themselves have a consistent tradition that their church was founded by the very early original Nazarene Church, most specifically by Saint Thomas. Many Pharisee's also converted to Christianity and joined the early Nazarene Church.
The Syrian-Malabar Church can allegedly trace it's ordination succession person by person all the way back to the original Church. I have seen these ancient documents and have spoken with Greek Orthodox scholars who insist these Syrian records are are historically accurate. If this be so then, considering  those who already had Semicha when becoming part of the Nasarini, this  would be another unbroken chain of ordination going back to Moshe.
Although Rabbi Yisroel Shklover said that under certain circumstances certain groups would be exempt from the halachic Rabbinical rules I am aware that no Orthodox Torah observant Jew would consider such a Semicha as being even close to being  halachic but it would be a very interesting research for a messianic observant Jew to explore.
CWatchman (talk) 04:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Messianic Nasarini's

message: There are communities making claims, some with DNA tests backing their claims, of descent from the lost tribes and keeping Torah the whole time: Jews of kurdistan, gruzia, mountain Jews, and most notably : the Habbani Jews from Yemen as well as other Yemenite Jewish tribes. 
I have also been told that they do not necessarily have to even know it as "smicha" because any permission to judge dinei knasot or nefashot would be sufficient.
One Rabbi is checking out sources of European Rabbi's with traditions surrounding them of an unbroken chain of Semicha.
I just find it incredible that there is no serious research into this. We now have access to research tools unavailable to Rabbi Yisroel Shklover and his associates who were so willing to risk their lives to search for an unbroken Chain of Semicha.
CWatchman (talk) 03:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unbroken Semicha in Yemen?

message: The correct transliteration of the word is Smicha, without the "e."The name of the article should be changed accordingly--Gilabrand (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it isn't.  It's a sheva na`.  -- Zsero (talk) 18:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The word is pronounced "smicha." Anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know Hebrew.  --Gilabrand (talk) 19:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is a sheva na`; end of story.  -- Zsero (talk) 05:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: I reinstate the unanswered objections of Avi from above. As of this diff, there seems to be a serious POV problem that happens to exist in an uncited state, particularly in the section "Not all present-day rabbis have semikhah". Statements like "Orthodox Jews do not see Conservative or Reform Rabbis as being "Rabbis", and are usually careful to quality the title with the movement from which it originated." or "A "Rabbi" without qualified is assumed to be Orthodox, and hence, legitimate."  might not reflect reality. I don't think that these statements, uncited, could continue to exist. There are Orthodox Jews of various opinions and I've talked to Chabad Rabbis who acknowledge the legitimacy of Rabbis of the Conservative movement and don't attach modifiers to them. Anyway, Shavuot Sameach.  Valley2city‽ 17:37, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tagging on "Not all present-day rabbis have semikhah" 

message: added the following, based on a 1950 source and using an editorialising style ("it is from this angle that we can start to understand"):
:In Jewish law, however, owing to the idea ot theocracy which is the basis of Jewish religion, law and religion are identical, with the result that the adjusting of disputes was not only a legal matter but also a religious one. This identification of law with religion meant that judges must not only posses legal knowledge and aptitude but also spiritual qualifications, and that the appointment of judges was not merely a civil ceremony but also a religious one. This idea lies at the root of Semikhah, and it is from this angle that we can start to understand the full significance of it. Julius Newman: Semikhah (ordination). A study of its origin, history, and function in Rabbinic literature. Manchester University Press. Manchester 1950, "Introduction".
:The first reference in the Bible to the appointment of Hebrew judges is found in Exodus where Jethro proposed to Moses a plan for relieving him of the unbearable onerous task of acting as a judge every day from dawn to dusk, in the people's civil disputes. Julius Newman: Semikhah (ordination). A study of its origin, history, and function in Rabbinic literature. Manchester University Press. Manchester 1950, "Chapter I"
Can I suggest a rewrite with more recent sources? JFW | T@lk 08:47, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Semikhah. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.ateret.org.il/uploads/filebank/pdfeng_0224_OntheAir78.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080918133426/http://www.daat.co.il/daat/english/ten-daat/bleich2-1.htm to http://daat.co.il/daat/english/ten-daat/bleich2-1.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150507164019/http://www.jtsa.edu/H_L_Miller_Cantorial_School_and_College_of_Jewish_Music/The_Cantorial_Program.xml to http://www.jtsa.edu/H_L_Miller_Cantorial_School_and_College_of_Jewish_Music/The_Cantorial_Program.xml
*Added  tag to http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=102198
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified