Talk:Hari Singh Nalwa

message: There are contradictions within the two references. While one states that Hari Singh was killed "dishonorably" from behind, the other source says that Hari Singh died due to internal wounds from an Afghan cannon ball launched by Dost Mohammad Khan's army. So what are we to believe?
Please State The References Vibhuwastaken (talk) 13:35, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Someone with more expertise than me needs to review the edits by User:24.108.182.49.  All the other edits from this user are nonsense or vandal.  The text inserted sounds authoritative, but its hard to tell.  --Vees 03:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:24.108.182.49]] 

message: We need to work on this article with info for this famous and great general. 
No offence, but he was very feared and loved, but none of his exploits are fully mentioned or acknowledged. 
We need some more info on his background. 
He was a powerful Khatri warlord.
--Mein hoon don 14:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tidy up tag added

message: Okay I also believe he was amazing, but we need to cite some references with the quoted material or else people are going to question its authenticity. Whoever put up that amazing quote from the British newspaper needs to also give the source so that it validates the article more. Without citing references, the article will lack strength.
Also, I am going to contact his descendants (the Nalwa Family) and see if they can furnish any additional info. I should be in Punjab this April-May, so I'll pay them a visit.
Gorkhali (talk) 03:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nalwa article

message: Please do not delete references from this article as you have done  twice already for no assignable reason 
* Instance 1 of Deletion of references by British Raja 
*Instance 2 of deletion of same references again on 8 February 2009 by British Raja
Please do not delete these references a third time .
Intothefire (talk) 06:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: now that the khatris have had our lands stolen from us in western punjab even our history is being stolen from us. congratulations. 38.64.185.51 (talk) 21:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandal deletions of ref by user [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:British_Raja British Raja]

message: I think we need more sources for the Kashmir claim, also this edit is a little messy. Pahari Sahib 15:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Gurjranwala or Kashmir

message: We have a new vandal, so be prepared and keep a keen watch on Harisinghnalwa  a chap who has shown up as of today April 6th and has begun their vandalism.
It boggles my mind why do people do this.
Gorkhali (talk) 05:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: VANDALISM

message: Can someone please explain to me why http://www.harisinghnalwa.com satisfies WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to have some good books cited in their, but I'll leave it to you. SH 23:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We could always use those books directly, rather than relying on the website as a tertiary source. The main problem is that it is effectively an advocacy group, established to preserve/promote his memory - such things are usually only reliable as sources about themselves, as has been pointed out time and again at the reliable sources noticeboard. - Sitush (talk) 00:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

text: That does not answer the question that I posed. It is possible for there to be two reliable but differing opinions, for example. I have previously explained this to you. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

text: I am going to remove the citations that use this source. As noted above, if there is any useful info there then it should be possible to obtain it from other sources. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Website sourcing 

message: Why is Duggal -  - a reliable source? His book contains no footnotes, no indication of his authority and a very worrying preface where someone says that Duggal has fixed some common misunderstandings relating to Singh. Nothing wrong with him offering his opinions etc, of course, but without any indication of his authority it causes me to query whether we should use him at all - we do not know whether he is a fringe theorist or mainstream, for example. - Sitush (talk) 15:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: KS Duggal is an OK source as far as I can see. He's been cited in other articles to do with Sikh figures. SH 23:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean that he has been used in other Wikipedia articles or that he has been cited by other historians? Who is he? - Sitush (talk) 00:51, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Cunningham and Griffin are too old, and they were British Raj writers who had peculiar and discredited outlooks. They should not be used except very occasionally in extremis. This is not such a situation. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

text: You did not cite them, and so I did not remove them. Are you saying that you have listed them in among all of your comments above? You see, I could not even be bothered reading every one of those because of the ranting that was going on. I'll happily do so if you point them out to me, but that was a classic case of you generating "more heat than light". - Sitush (talk) 01:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Well, if you have only seen snippet view then that is not acceptable here. Ever. - Sitush (talk) 02:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duggal source 

message: Library on the Nalwa Sardar. I will start going through it and posting them for you to sift through Sitush. Thanks SH 23:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's see what turns up. Best to be open-minded. - Sitush (talk) 01:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hari Ram Gupta is an excellent scholar. SH 08:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Cunningham and Griffin are serious last resorts - too old. - Sitush (talk) 08:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I have been looking at this book Hari Singh Nalwa Champion of the Khalsaji by Vinit Nalwa, which seems to be the most comprehensive research. It states that Diwan Mokham Chand lef the attackmon the Attock. As for the Kohinoor, there is mention of Ranjit Singh but not Harin Singh or Diwan Mokham Chand. It should be noted that the above mentioned HariSinghNalwa website is also linked to this book. The book is very well researched. What it does say id Hari Singh was sucessful in pushing the Afghans from this side of the Khyber pass and conquered Peshawar (the second Afghan capital). It also notes that Afghan women still put their children to sleep by saying "be quiet or Haria (Hari Singh Nalwa) will come".SH 11:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ignoring the stuff below (I cannot even be bothered reading it properly due to the ranting), that book seems dodgy to me. Look at the publisher's name. - Sitush (talk) 11:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Manohar Publisher are good as far as I know. I have used several of their books in my own work as references. The Hari Singh Nalwa foundation is a legitimate organisation. On top of that I spent a few hours going through the book. It is well researched with some excellent illustrations maps. It's up to you Sitush, but I went through several other books and found this to be one of the best. Best Wishes SH 18:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

text: I've also looked into Vanit Nalwa. She seems ok to me. Thanks SH 18:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  I Have an extensive.... 

message: http://books.google.co.in/books?id=vOPb4SnrsWAC&pg=PA140&dq=diwan+chand+multan+1818&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FLEqT9quOY7SrQfr4u3tDA&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=diwan%20chand%20multan%201818&f=false. 
Both these important places were conquered by Hindu Diwan Chand not a sikh---http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Q0ABAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=diwan+chand+multan+1818&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aLIqT6ipOMTTrQfxvZn2DA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=diwan%20chand%20multan%201818&f=false
It is obvious that the web of myths which sikhs have made around that they protected HINDUS , hahahahaha Hindu dont need protection we were the one Maratha Empire which first attacked Mogul Empire capital Delhi in 1737 that is 2 years before nadir shah, similarly nadir shah never proceeded further from delhi it was the advice of sadaat khan who knew that all his baggage and cavaran will be looted by Maratha. Similarly it was a Hindu Rajput Lacchman dev who founded the first sikh kingdom, it was two hindu general diwan mohkam chand and diwan chand who completed destroyed the strength of Durrani Empire and also send a message to sikhs that the INVINCIBLE Pashtuns are not only weak but can be routed in full fledge battles. In battle of Attock in 1814 Diwan Mohkam Chand defeated Wazir Fateh Khan(Governor of Kabul) and his brother Dost Mohammad Khan(later become the Emir of Afghanistan) in an open pitched battle it was this battle which marks the beginning of Afghan decline and Indian Upsurge .  
To celebrate his victory he made a Ram temple in attock but unfortunately before temple was completed he died in the same year(1814). 122.161.111.128 (talk) 16:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Multan and Kashmir belongs to 
Hindu Diwan Chand
 [[Ranjit Singh]]

message: don't show me all this muscle...i'll stick it in...
come...net sessions...coach is calling....  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.199.110.80 (talk) 11:36, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  really 

message: Someone has been adding a lot of information recently. It appears mostly to be unsourced, and those bits that do have a footnote are citing "Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa Published by SIKH MISSIONARY COLLEGE (REGD.) Page 4". What is this book? Who wrote it? Why is it reliable? Where can we get a copy? Why is there SHOUTING in there? - Sitush (talk) 10:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the source linked o above by Marwahasaab is certainly not reliable and this is for the reasons that you give. Any objections to removing it? - Sitush (talk) 17:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

text: I am finding this section very difficult to understand. However, in response to , I'd appreciate more information regarding the Singhia point. That source is used only in the infobox, which is itself odd because stuff in infoboxes should usually also appear in the main text (infoboves are summaries just as much as lead sections. Did Singhia write the entire work or was he editor of contributions made by others? If the latter, is the contribution for Nalwa attributed to someone? Finally, do we have any sources (plural) that contradict Singhia's claim that Nalwa was Governor of Multan? - Sitush (talk) 08:55, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious sourcing 

message: Sorry because I know that people have raised the issue of Vanit Nalwa before, but how the heck can she be a reliable source? Someone above actually went to the trouble of linking to her profile and what is clear is that she has absolutely no relevant academic expertise at all, and does have a considerable self-interest in the subject matter because of her role with the Trust. All statements sourced to her should be removed or re-sourced. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've opened a discussion at WP:RSN - see here. - Sitush (talk) 09:14, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

text: Please see WP:OSE. - Sitush (talk) 08:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vanit Nalwa 

message: Madan, Zutshi, Schofield's input would be more appropriate under 'Sikh rule' rather than here. According to Sandhu, Hari Singh Nalwa was "...entrusted with the Government of Kashmir" and was "...one of the most able and popular Sikh governors which the Sikhs have had." Sandhu is quoting the British political agent, Wade (in a letter written to the Governor General dated 13 March 1831). Ref: Bengal Political Consultations Range 126, Vol 25, India Office MSS Records, (see Sandhu p. 20). Help please help (talk) 05:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hari Singh in Kashmir 

message: The Popular culture section shows quotes from hagiographic poets of the 19t century etc. Are there no views from the other side, ie: his opponents? - Sitush (talk) 08:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Erm, those whom he fought against. And their successors. I didn't mention Sikhs - please do not put words into my mouth. - Sitush (talk) 08:53, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know what you mean? Hari Singh Nalwa had friends and enemies amongst the Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Afghans, Yusafzais, Afridis etc...His name finds mention in a Pashto verse reported by a French author. His first biographer was a Muslim poet [this information was deleted by you]. There are more Hindu poets who sung his praise [deleted by you] than members of the Sikh fraternity! Though he was against the British, they eulogized him....in Tit-Bits [again information deleted by you]... British Raja (talk) 12:47, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  ... "had friends and enemies" - so where are the opinions of his enemies? We do not show just one side. - Sitush (talk) 10:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

text: Done British Raja (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight in Popular culture section 

message: Any chance of us standardising on one citation style or another? At present, we use at least three and that is not how we are supposed to do it. Has anyone got a preference? - Sitush (talk) 10:31, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation style 

message: User:Ghatus has changed,,;
*"For the Muslims, Sikh rule was the darkest period of the history of the place, while for the Kashmiri Pandits (Hindus) nothing was worse than the Afghan rule. The Sikh conquest of Kashmir was prompted by an appeal from its Hindu population. The oppressed Hindus had been subjected to forced conversions, their women raped, their temples desecrated, and cows slaughtered.", to; 
*"For the Muslims, Sikh rule under Sikh and Dogra generals were the darkest period of the history of the place, while for the Kashmiri Pandits (Hindus) it was a welcome move as they had to face various difficulties during the 67 years of Afghan rule." and in the process removing this reference, Sufi, G. M. D. (1974) [First published 1948-1949], Kashir Being a History of Kashmir From the Earliest Times to Our Own 2 (Reprinted ed.), New Delhi: Life and Light Publishers, page 750. AND, not explaining how his change of the referenced sentences are supported by this source, Sandhu, Autar Singh (1935), General Hari Singh Nalwa, Lahore: Cunningham Historical Society, page 13. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:47, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing of referenced information 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Weak sourcing and unverifiable claims do NOT serve to make a stronger case for someone, they only *dilute* and weaken the claims that are strong.
The “Popular culture” reference to “one of the Greatest conquerors in the History of the world” needs to either be fixed, or deleted.  
The current citation is worthless, it just claims that “In 2014, Billionaires Australia” made this claim.  I can find no reliable evidence (anywhere on Google or Bing) of the existence of any publication called “Billionaires Australia”.  I can only find a couple of sources that just repeat the unsubstantiated claim that some publication made that claim: 
here - https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sikh-warrior-hari-singh-nalwa-tops-list-of-top-ten-world-conquerors.393349/ 
and here - https://barusahib.org/general/hari-singh-nalwa/ 
but neither of them provide any link or actual evidence that “Billionaires Australia” actually exists!  
At this point it has no more credibility than a completely made up claim.  It is not authoritative unless some real substantiation can be found which is possible for researchers to actually read... if not, it needs to be deleted.  
DKEdwards (talk) 21:34, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unverifiable Sourcing  

message: The edits are not unsourced, in fact they come from the same source that was linked previously. I simply expanded on them. Please refer to Vanit Nalwa (13 January 2009). Hari Singh Nalwa, "champion of the Khalsaji" (1791-1837). Manohar, New Delhi. p. 21
Page 21 contains all the pertinent information. Kindly refrain from undoing the edit until further discussion on talk.
Abh9850 (talk) 00:28, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. Though I recommend that you mention this in your edit summaries in the future so as to avoid such misunderstandings.Alivardi (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: Unsourced 

message: Plz add this image in the infobox image of Hari Singh Nalwa
You can also redirect from below -:
 2409:4065:21C:1CF7:1A79:B683:45A8:E373 (talk) 06:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not going to use an enormous digital art piece with a watermark in the infobox. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2021 

message: The hari singh was killed in jamrud not in Khyber pass.. Khyber pass and jamrud are two separate locations ,
Khyber pass is approx 30 kilometers away from jamrud fort. The clear location where hari singh was killed, was jamrud fort.. only jamrud fort not Khyber pass. 39.40.89.113 (talk) 19:51, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 00:12, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2023 

message: Please add the  next to the listing for the Battle of Jamrud (1837) where he died in battle in the Battles/wars section. 49.185.149.109 (talk) 15:24, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. ThethPunjabi (talk) 21:49, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing part (Semi-protected edit request) 

message: please tell Punjab lovers (talk) 05:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should we not write [[Military Campaigns of Hari Singh Nalwa]] instead of all wars 

message: shouldn't we add Military campaigns page link on battles/wars section? Punjab lovers (talk) 16:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military campaign  

message: This non-scholarly and non-independent source is authored by Vanit Nalwa, who is a neuropsychologist and hypnotherapist by profession. This is non-independent source, as she is a relative of the subject. So this is not reliable for Sikh history. For historical details, please cite scholarly sources authored by historians – see WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:HISTAR.
 NitinMlk (talk) 23:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vanit Nalwa 

message: Reverting all repeated disruptive edits WP:DE by @Truthfindervert on the caste of Hari Singh Nalwa. There is uniform academic consensus that he was from the Uppal Khatri caste. Citing academic sources below. @Truthfindervert has been reverting years-long standing consensus on this page and is carrying out a lot of disruptive editing.
1. Brill Encylopedia of Sikhism, 2017, Khatris and Aroras, Hardeep Singh Syan, ‘Hari Singh Nalva (1791-1837), who was an Uppal Khatri
2. Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Politics, Society and Economy, 1984, Fauja Singh, pg 283
‘Hari Singh Nalwa (an Uppal Khatri)
3. The Sikh Lion of Lahore, Hari Ram Gupta, The History of the Sikhs, 1978, pg 503
‘Hari Singh Nalwa (an Uppal Khatri)
4. The Campaigns of General Hari Singh Nalwa, Gurbacharan Singh, 1995, pg 77
’Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa, an Uppal Khatri’
5. International Journal of Research, 2014, SN Mishra, pg 2, ’Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa was born in 1791 CE to Sardar Gurdial Singh of the Uppal Khatri clan’
6. Historical Developments of Sikhism, RN Singh, 2003, pg 194, ‘Hari Singh Nalwa was born in the Uppal Khatri clan to Sardar Gurdial Singh’
7. Glimpses of Sikhism and Sikhs, Sher Singh, 2009, pg 206, ‘Nalwa of Khatri Uppal sub-caste’
8. An Encylopedia of Sikhism and Sikhs, 2009, Joginder Singh Sahi, pg 62, ‘Uppal Khatri family’ Abh9850 (talk) 09:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Vandalism/Disruptive Editing 

message: he was from jat background why did you remove it 2409:40D0:E:98FD:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2024 

message: Hari Singh Nalwa was born in A Khatri Uppal Family not in Upaal Jat Sikhs Family 103.77.41.53 (talk) 10:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. User:CanonNi (talk • contribs) 10:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2024