Talk:Hawaii/Archive 5

message: Would a genuinely bloodless coup be termed "nearly bloody"?--Son of Somebody 02:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be more appropriate to indicate clearly that only one police officer was wounded while trying to stop militiamen from distributing rifles.  No other shots were fired, and no other casualties (deaths or wounds) occured.  I'm open to alternate wording suggestions. --JereKrischel 03:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nearly bloodless coup" 

message: The article lists Mount Waialeale as the third wettest place on earth.  However, when I follow the link, I see only one wetter spot listed (Mawsynram, India).  Does this bother anyone besides me? Derekt75 22:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think its probably better to just say "one of the wettest".  I've seen statistics that vary based on what period of measurement is used (one year, average over a decade, average over 50 years, etc).  Hard to make the claim of "wettest" if we don't get specific on the measurement we are using. --JereKrischel 23:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This just seems like such a cop-out to me.  Sure Cherrapunji has had a year with more rain, but the commonly quoted "average yearly rainfall" seems to be 11,430mm to Mount Waialeale's 11,684.  When I read articles, things like "one of the ...est" bother me.  Why not tell me where it ranks?  As far as the specific measurement criteria, I think the 2nd half of the sentence made it clear that it was talking about annual rainfall.  To address your concern, I tried being more specific, but honestly, I like what I had before better.  Derekt75 12:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mount Wai‘ale‘ale

message: Does Hawaii have railways? Felix 15:02, 27 July 2006
:Yes, Hawaii has two, small, heritage railways, one at West Oahu (see their webswite here) and one on Maui (see their website here. Both are too short (each runs on track that's about 6 miles long), too slow, and too expensive to be used by commuters.
:Most of the Hawaiian islands used to have railroads servicing them regularly. Oahu, for example, had the Oahu Railway and Land Company, which ran around the entire island. The Big Island had the Hawaii Consolidated Railway. Most of Hawaii's railroads, however, shuttered after World War II as trucks became more economical.
:You might have heard that Honolulu is currently planning a mass transit system, which might include a light rail system that would run from Kapolei through Manoa/Waikiki.
:I hope this answers your question. 青い(Aoi) 20:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, could someone take a look at Maglev train and see if the entry for Honolulu should be revised or not?  Thanks. Also, I don't know if anyone noticed, but the Sugar Cane Train on Maui has changed its name to Lahaina-Kaanapali and Pacific Railroad.  Most if not all of the sugar cane on the west side has been replaced with houses (just like Oahu) although you can still see it growing wild (if you have good eyes).  Of course, it still fills the valley on the other side. —Viriditas | Talk 23:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Railways

message: From article "and it is the only state that continues to grow due to active lava flows, most notably from Kīlauea." This is true for only active lava growth, not any land growth as it seems to say. I asked the Alaska Volcano Center and they said Augustine Island has grown due to debris avalanches, not sure how recently. Rmhermen 21:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Like most oddities and extremes, etc. there are always exceptions of some kind somewhere. I'm unclear what the Alaska (Augustine Island) example is exactly, but it is the case in many coastal areas that the land area advances (increases) due to various geological processes.  For example, I suspect that until they started destroying their coastal marshes, the State of Louisiana was increasing in size (and at a daily rate exceeding that in Hawaii) as the Mississippi delta built out into the Gulf at the expense of a lot of soil from the Midwest (but no loss of land area to the sea in those eroding states). So the "active lava flows" part is clearly important to the statement - Marshman 02:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Land growth

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii#Hawaiian_antiquity
Under that section, I noticed someone added that according to recent evidence, the initial settlement was as late as 800 A.D.  So whatever happened to the carbon dating pinpointing it to 400 A.D. from Halawa Valley?  Is that now thrown out because of recent evidence showing a more recent date?  That doesn't make sense to me.  Granted that none of you don't comprehend genealogical reckoning that could aid in the dates. -- Mamoahina 23:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose carbon dating is not necessarily always accurate, and the new findings have addressed that, but I don't have access to the raw study data used for that conclusion.  Although genealogical reckoning could aid in validating the dates, it is difficult to use that as a primary source, given the lack of verifiable records (I'm assuming you're talking about oral histories and traditions). --JereKrischel 01:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hawaiian Antiquity

message: Will information about this be added here?  Northwestern Hawaiian Islands National Monument  Badagnani 12:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a mention in the geography section would be appropriate. 青い(Aoi) 23:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: added --JereKrischel 06:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Northwestern Hawaiian Islands National Monument]]

message: I'm aware that Zora and IslandGyrl are discussing this issue on their respective talk pages, but can the two of you briefly summarize and state your positions regarding the use of the template?  Due to the controversial nature of this template, it may be a bit premature to include it on this page without consensus.  --Viriditas  | Talk 13:08, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am strongly opposed to having the template there. The POV that template represents is an extreme minority POV. If I recall correctly, that POV is well-represented on Wikipedia -- and if IslandGyrl doesn't believe it is, she should write an article that is as NPOV as she can manage and we'll edit it and link it from the main Hawai'i page. I don't want to censor the POV, but I don't think it should be elevated to template status, as if there were really some doubt about the state's legal status. The template makes it look as if Wikipedia were endorsing the belief that there is some such doubt. What else? Templates for every political position in the islands? Zora 00:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your position, Zora.  There certainly is no doubt except in the minds of a very few people who tend to be rather out of touch by hanging out at UH.  I used to go there, and I know how little most at UH really know about the community around them. - Marshman 01:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the template should probably be kept only on the hawaii pages that are directly in the time frame of the dispute - that is, on the Hawaii sovereignty pages, the Kingdom of Hawaii, Provisional Government and Republic of Hawaii pages.  Once we get into the Territory, Statehood, and delisting from UN article 73, the dispute isn't particularly mainstream (one could even argue that the 1874 Morgan Committee Report is the furthest boundary of legitimate dispute).  Perhaps that would be an appropriate compromise.  I think that IslandGyrl's work on the templates has been in good faith, but that the objection to it's universal placement is understandable.  I think that part of the issue is that despite being fringe and unjustifiable, the historical revisionism of the hawaiian sovereignty movement has made great strides when unopposed (i.e., '93 apology resolution, the continuous near-miss of the Akaka Bill).  I think the fear is that giving prominent placement is akin to giving legitimacy - much as a scientist would object to the inclusion of intelligent design or creationism in a science class.  That being said, intelligent design WOULD be an appropriate topic in a creative fiction class (Spaghetti Monsterism), or a social studies class - and I think that for a certain subset of Hawai'i pages, the legal template IslandGyrl has worked on would be appropriate --JereKrischel 18:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Legal status of Hawaii footer

message: Does anyone know the Hawaiian language name of the Humpback Whale found in the state symbols picture gallery on the article?  It would be nice to have that listed.  On a related note for my article on the Cathedral of Our Lady of Peace, what is the Hawaiian language equivalent of the word cathedral?  I used to know it but it has escaped me.  The cathedral is often called by Hawaiians as Malia o ka Malu Hale Pule but its official name uses the Hawaiian word for cathedral not hale pule which means church.  Anyhoo, thanks!  —Gerald Farinas 22:08, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ooh!  Never mind.  I found it.  The word for cathedral is hale pule nui.  The humpback whale is called kohola kuapio.  I stumbled on a great new Hawaiian Dictionary online published by the Native Hawaiian Library of Alu Like and the Hale Kuamoo Center for Hawaiian Language at the University of Hawaii at Hilo.  It has new Hawaiian words formulated by the Komike Huaolelo Hawaiian Lexicon Committee for modern Hawaiian language usage.  I added the link to the WikiProject Hawaii homepage as a resource.  —Gerald Farinas 05:06, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: State symbols gallery

message: I reverted back to the version that included the okina template...it seemed to revert a lot of edits all at once, and at first blush, it looks like the okina template is really useful for readability during edits - Aoi, did you really mean to just get rid of the okina template, and why? --JereKrischel 06:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for reverting me, you caught a major mistake. I guess I wasn't paying attention and I reverted a lot more than what I intended to revert. The only thing I intended to revert was the Template:Infobox U.S. sovereign state back to the original Template:US_state. Reverting everything else was a big accident on my part. 青い(Aoi) 06:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Okina template

message: How do I get the Okina symbol to appear? I'm always getting those boxes, and they are quite irritating. Usually, I just use the "`", that symbol below the tilde primarily. Or, the "'" apostrophe, if it's going straight down. What encoding is used? Or do I have to download something?
:Hopefully it will work (you will see something other than a little box) when you insert ; otherwise the single quote on the right of your keyboard is the best substitute - Marshman 18:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It works for me in FireFox, but no encoding or any other setting in Internet Explorer will get it to show up for me. It's always either boxes or Ê ». If it's not working for me I can't imagine it's working for the majority. I have the most common computer and browser configuration in existence. I say mass-replace the symbol for ` or some other display work around as described in Okina. socalifornia 08:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, maybe if we put a firefox link on the page, we can improve adoption stats and create a new majority (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) :).  Seriously though, I'm really torn about breaking the "real" way to show an okina just to support broken browsers.  Is it possible to build some sort of mediawiki plugin that will allow users to set an "okina" preference, and show it one way for one browser, and another way for another browser?  AgentX mentioned this somewhere before, and I'm not sure as to the feasability (or the slippery slope of all the characters munged by non-standards compliant browsers) of such a preference.  I get the feeling that this argument was hashed over once before, and by the time we agree to anything, IE might have added decent unicode support. --JereKrischel 08:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is telling people they have to use FireFox really practical? I don't see why we can't just use an apostrophe or the ` mark. If an apostrophe is good enough for an online Honolulu Advertiser article about the use of diacritical marks in Hawaiian spelling, it should be more than good enough for Wikipedia. Even in FireFox, ` still looks better to me than the rather bulky-looking symbol. If some future version of IE does support it, it'll still be a year or two before IE6 users fully make the switch to their new version, and when that time comes we can always go back to using the glottal stop then. It's just a matter of mass-replacing text in Notepad -- hardly difficult. Would using a PNG image of the mark in place of text be possible? socalifornia 11:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Okina

message: Please convert the spelling of Hawai[]i to some-thing readable on computers not set to what-ever special settings are needed to convert [] to ' or ` or what-ever it really is . Kdammers 10:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could be wrong, but isn't this a problem with Internet Explorer?  It seems to work fine in Firefox. —Viriditas | Talk 10:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Apparently, since it also works with Opera.  Unfortunately, IE is widely used.  Thus, we should try to make viewable in that system. Kdammers 10:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Okina.  Seems to be a problem with Windows, not this page. —Viriditas | Talk 10:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okina looks okeh in IE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdammers (talk • contribs) 10:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I mean is, read the article.  It explains the problem, which has nothing to do with Wikipedia. —Viriditas | Talk 04:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have two PCs running IE on Windows XP.  One shows the okina correctly, one doesn't.  Both are Auto-Selecting Unicode UTF-8.  The article Okina goes into some rambling discussion of the technical issues of what the best computer character is to represent it, but the article does nothing to explain how to make it look correct.  Clearly IE and Windows XP are capable of displaying an okina.  Wouldn't it be nice to tell people how to do this somewhere?  Derekt75 20:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very interesting Derekt75...do you have any specific information about what version of IE you are running on both computers?  That kind of information might be very helpful in showing people how to make IE render it correctly. --JereKrischel 22:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The one that displays the okina correctly is Version 6.0.2800.1106.xpsp2.050301-1526.  I'll have to check later about the one that has a problem.  I should also have mentioned:  the correct one is running XP Professional (version 5.1 2600.xpsp2.050301-1526 : SP1).  The problem one is XP Home.  Derekt75 20:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreadable orthography

message: In the article, I quoted the relevant portion of Article XV Section 4 which specifies that Hawaiian language is NOT REQUIRED for any state government activity unless there is "law", presumably one in Hawaii Revised Statutes, that specifically requires its use for a specific situation. Article XV was being misrepresented and wrongly cited in the article as absolutely requiring the use of MODERN Hawaiian-language spellings (as opposed to native practice) in all government activities. There is an extremist modern-spelling bias among some Wikipedia editors which is resulting in distortions of the truth. Please check sources in order to avoid making Wikipedia a waste of the readers' time. And don't lie in order to push your political agenda.
Agent X 01:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please remember to assume good faith. I'm not a linguist and I'm not an expert in the Hawaiian language but please don't just assume that any factual errors you find on Wikipedia were added deliberately to push a political agenda. In either case, thank you for clarifying the errors that were on this article. 青い(Aoi) 01:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, I do not "just assume that any factual errors you find on Wikipedia were added deliberately to push a political agenda". What I wrote above, about "an extremist modern-spelling bias" and a "political agenda", is based on specific writings of specific users on specific talk pages, as well as their specific edits which I have observed as recorded on specific page histories. To be relatively polite, I did not address or name any individual user.  Agent X 06:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Constitution Article XV and Hawaiian language

message: As a Hawaiian who doesn't speak the aboriginal language, I found the ubiquitous spelling of Hawaii as Hawai'i to be a bit too new aget and offensive. I don't know anyone who spells it like that.
DKARP
:The manual of style says that place names should be the most common english version and that any other varient should be mentioned only, and not used for general refence.(at least that is how I remember.) HighInBC 14:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:WikiProject Hawaii's manual of style page states "Where appropriate, use of the ʻokina is preferred in Hawaiian words and names used in articles dealing with Hawaiʻi." The manual of style should be followed since it gives all Wikipedia articles consistency. If you feel the okina should be barred from use on Wikipedia, you should open a discussion on the manual of style page to see if there is a concensus (or to try and form a concensus) to have this particular criteria changed. 青い(Aoi) 08:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So can we put the okina back in using the template for now? This template is supposed to fix the MSIE problems, per the Template talk:Okina page. Then it’s just a matter of putting the ASCII text  in where we want it, and people editing the page should see it and follow suit. I myself like to be reminded whether there’s an okina in Lānai or not... — Jéioosh 22:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think that would be the appropriate thing to do. 青い(Aoi) 00:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Okina

message: I contributed the phonetic representations for the various pronunciations of "Hawaii", including both the English pronunciations and the Hawaiian pronunciations. At first, I used  for a certain one of the English variants. However, I soon changed it to the Americanist phonetic notation , with "y" instead of "j". The American style is better since the article is about the 50th state of the USA.
Two users have changed the "y" to "j". Because I am the major contributor of pronunciation transcriptions to the article, other users need to defer to my decision to employ the American style --- "y", not "j". Rather than repeatedly going over this point with individual users who know some IPA and think that they will "correct" the transcription by replacing "y" with "j", I am posting this explanation on this talk page. If I need to undo "y2j" edits in the future, my edit summary will say "See talk page".  Agent X 14:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "y" rather than "j" in {{IPA|[hə.ˈwai.yi]}}

message: The article stands at 62KB in size. It will help to reduce the "pidgin" section, especially since there is a separate main article for that topic. I will kill the pidgin examples, and unkill them in this section, following this post, in case someone would like to transfer them to the Hawaiian Creole English article.
Agent X 14:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reduction of "pidgin" section