Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (U.S. schools)/Archive 1

message: Following discussion at WT:NC(S), I have created a new proposal for naming conventions solely for US schools. Hopefully this will allow for consensus to form more easily. The version I have created is a draft and I welcome some input on getting it to guideline status. I am going to alert all relevant WikiProjects and the village pump to this new proposal. WP:NC(S) will remain a separate proposal for now, which will hopefully one day replace this as a guideline. Camaron1 | Chris 17:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New proposal

message: It seems a little excessive to use (City, State) if only one disambiguator is needed. 
I think the order of disambiguation should be:
# Country
# State
# City
# County (I know there's at least one state in the USA with two towns with the same name)
Thoughts? shoy 19:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the full city and state is more uniform, easier to link to and much less ambiguous. The way it's written now is both consistent and easily applied in the vast majority of cases. While there may be two cities with the same name, are there identically named schools in the two identically named cities in the same state? This has also been argued before. Adam McCormick 23:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The current (Municipality, State) setup is inherited from WP:NC(S), where it was generally voiced that double disambiguates are the best option for US schools; as it can be easily applied - the problem comes when you try and apply it to schools outside of the US. This proposal might need to be expanded a little for special cases, but the current version is OK for most cases and is simple. Camaron1 | Chris 12:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the current proposal is good, but I would clarify that it should be used in all cases where there is obviously likely to be a conflict, not just where one already exists. DGG (talk) 18:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  We around the block on that point for a month at the parent guideline. There is significant resistance to any such connotation. Nice though that would be preemptive disambiguation is generally discouraged. Adam McCormick 23:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation

message: :The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. 
This is only a summary guide to help see where consensus on the issue of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (U.S. schools) stands; and to clearly see what areas of the guideline are problematic. Please do not explain your reasons in this section. Create a new section heading or join one of the existing sections to discuss the issue. Thank you
===Support the proposed guideline===
*Dbiel (Talk) 17:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please include a very short statement to identify the problem area here, then start or join into the discussion of the specific issue in a separate heading
*for the generic names very likely to be duplicated, as "Schools of arts and Sciences", the location should be added initially. Otherwise, the name sounds over broad and is confusing--people expect the articles to deal with schools of arts and sciences in general--and in some cases, that seems to be intended.DGG (talk) 00:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
OK, I have edited the proposal to try and address the concerns - though it might need reviewing. Any feedback would be appreciated. Camaron1 | Chris (talk) 14:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for addressing even my small concern.  I believe I'm happy with the naming convention. (Great job, Camaron1 | Chris on all you've done for this proposal.) --Hebisddave (talk) 22:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it looks good the way it is now. When can it become a policy? --Dan LeveilleTALK 01:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Guide to help determine consensus 

message: *Dbiel (Talk) 17:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Support the proposed guideline

message: :Please include a very short statement to identify the problem area here, then start or join into the discussion of the specific issue in a separate heading
*for the generic names very likely to be duplicated, as "Schools of arts and Sciences", the location should be added initially. Otherwise, the name sounds over broad and is confusing--people expect the articles to deal with schools of arts and sciences in general--and in some cases, that seems to be intended.DGG (talk) 00:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.</div>
OK, I have edited the proposal to try and address the concerns - though it might need reviewing. Any feedback would be appreciated. Camaron1 | Chris (talk) 14:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for addressing even my small concern.  I believe I'm happy with the naming convention. (Great job, Camaron1 | Chris on all you've done for this proposal.) --Hebisddave (talk) 22:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it looks good the way it is now. When can it become a policy? --Dan LeveilleTALK 01:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Have issues with the proposed guideline

message: Should schools like Rochester High School (Washington) be named Rochester High School (Rochester, Washington)? That seems a bit redundant. But the guideline doesn't state anything different. There should be some clarification because many schools are named "[City] High School". --Dan LeveilleTALK 11:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I will add it as a exception in the proposal that if a school has the municipality or state name in the schools name, it does not need to be repeated in the parameter. Camaron1 | Chris (talk) 12:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oooh, I'm not so sure this should be an exception. I think I prefer the redundancy for the sake of uniformity. There could be a Rochester High School somewhere else in Washington, but the current title seems to imply that this is the only Rochester High School in the entire state of Washington.  Obviously the (fictional) other school could be disambiguated with the name of its city, but I think the point of the guideline is to establish some across-the-board uniformity that is now lacking. SlackerMom (talk) 15:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have put it in for now as I would have included it in this proposal originally, as my interpretation of longterm past discussions is that the parameter added should not repeat the schools name, though that exception can be removed if necessary. The original proposal called for ultimate uniformity with all school articles been disambiguated regardless of if it was needed or not, that was rejected. This proposal does try to keep redundant disambiguation to the minimum. Rochester High School (Washington) would only need to be further disambiguated if it is actually found that there is another high school in Washington with this name, in which it could be necessary to add more information to the guideline on what to do in this event. Camaron1 | Chris (talk) 17:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I doubt there would be schools with the same exact name in one state, since there are obviously not going to be two cities/towns name the same. Even if this would happen, then both schools become Rochester High School (Rochester, Washington). I doubt we would ever run into that - the government would have more problems with that. --Dan LeveilleTALK 02:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I retract my last statement. I just found Jackson High School (Jackson, Ohio) and Jackson High School (Massillon, Ohio). I guess I do agree that the town should be included in all cases. There are some high schools with the same name as a town in the city, and someone who sees Jackson High School (Ohio) may not know which. Camaron1, could you remove that from the proposal, I disagree with my original claim. --Dan LeveilleTALK 03:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dan, in most cities the highs schools are not named after their location (my city is named Rochester, but the only school in the entire city with that name is an elemntary school named after the found of the city Nathaniel Rochester). TJ Spyke 05:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In many cases in New Hampshire (where i'm from), there are quite a few that are named after their location. But if you read the above conversation, I do agree that it should always be City High School (City, State). If we don't be consistent, it'll get confusing. --Dan LeveilleTALK 09:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My bad, i've never lived anywhere else so I don't always know how things work in other places. Not that it matters, I agree with you about how they should be named (especially if it is a generic sounding school name, the high school I went too is not likely to have to have a disambiguation due to it's length). TJ Spyke 09:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  City High School (City, State)?