Talk:Pentaerythritol tetranitrate

message: In accordance with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Drugs naming policy, I propose we move this page to the INN pentaerithrityl tetranitrate. If you have any concern with this proposal, please discuss it on this page. Matt 17:39, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: While this apparantly hasn't been done, I'd say that we ought to do something similar to what has been done at Nitroglycerin, and create two separate pages — one at PETN describing the explosive properties of the compound and one at pentaerithrityl tetranitrate discussing the medical applications. GeeJo (t) (c) • 19:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is quite short. There should be enough with redirect. -Yyy 16:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I know chemists may like this diagram but the casual observer wont see all the elements. Why is this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.154.23.3 (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's called a skeletal formula and is a shorthand that all chemists use. I agree this article covers a topic that will be of significant interest to non-chemists, so I will raise the issue at WP:CHEMS. Thanks for pointing this out. :Ben (talk) 10:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A “casual user” won't understand the structural formula anyway, no matter if the carbons incl. attached hydrogens are shown explicitly. --Leyo 10:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

text: I agree with Leyo, this is a standard skeletal structure. Anybody who does not know how to interpret the structure would not magically understand anything by seeing explicit carbons and hydrogens. saumaun (talk) 07:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diagram of molecule lacks 'C' for Carbon 

message: "Charges manufactured in the future may include other explosives."  Is this line helpful?
 
According to the Financial Times, December 28, 2009, Page 5. PETN "was also used by a would-be assassin of Prince Mohammed bin Nayef, Saudi Arabia's anti-terrorism chief, who was slightly wounded in August (2009) when the assailant exploded a device hidden in his underwear." If someone wants to add this to the main article, then it's fine with me.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eroche (talk • contribs) 17:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main article 

message: What is the specific energy of PETN in MJ / kg or TNT equivalents? Shouldn't this be part of every explosives infobox?--SiriusB 11:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I mentioned on Talk:RDX, the energy value isn't normally measured or recorded.  Detonation velocity and pressure are.  Georgewilliamherbert 18:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have retrieved values for the explosion heat (I guess that is equivalent to the explosive energy) , including reference. Unfortunately, only values for a small number of explosives are listed. There is another table in , but without references. It shows a somewhat higher value (1.7 TNT equivalents), but since also TNT has got 1.1 it might be due to another base used as TNT equivalent (don't ask me why). Maybe, someone knows a more complete source for many other explosives, then we might add it to the explosive infobox (I have no experience in editing these new kind of infoboxes, so I only added the data to the text).--SiriusB 09:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: TNT equivalent is not a pure energy scale-up.  It's a military rough equivalence for use in demolitions, which is a mixture of brissance and heave values.  Those tend to increase with detonation velocity and energy but it's nowhere near that simple.  The TNT equivalent is not 'calculated', it's not a formula, it's an observed utility correlation in required masses to accomplish demolitions type explosives use tasks.  Georgewilliamherbert 19:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I was talking about the energetic TNT equivalent that scales distances at which an explosion of e.g. 1 tonne of an explosive does some effect (e.g. make a brick wall collapse). The demolishing effects you mention depend on the detonation velocity only within very short ranges (comparable to the radius of the explosive charge itself). For long distances it does not really matter if a shock wave has been generated by TNT, fuel-air mixture of a nuclear warhead, each with an explosive force of 1000 tonnes TNT equivalent. Therefore, it is indeed reasonable to take the released amount of energy as the main measure of the explosive effect. For nuclear weapons the blast yield (in an assumed free-air explosion without any Mach effect or refraction) is given by the total yield (the energy released by the nuclear fission of/and fusion) times the energy fraction of blast (among other effects like heat and nuclear radiation). Furthermore, energy is among the most important quantities in physics, therefore I cannot understand why it is often neglected for (non-nuclear) explosives. Comparing the energy yields helps to understand why a recently tested Russion fuel-air bomb of seven (?) tonnes of weight did tha same damage as an air burst of 40 tonnes TNT would have done (but only on "weak targets").--SiriusB 18:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing data: explosive energy 

message: From the article:
:PETN does not occur naturally, so the production and use of this kind of compound can lead to contamination of the environment. PETN is subject to biodegradation in untreated or unpreserved urine and feces.
On the surface, to a layperson, this appears contradictory.  The mere fact that it does not occur naturally does not make it an environmental contaminant.  Elemental calcium for instance does not occur naturally but is not an environmental problem.  If the substance biodegrades readily, one would not ordinarily expect it to be problematic as a contaminant.  Some kind of explanation is needed.  Does it degrade into harmful contaminants?  If so, what?  If not, then what is the problem?  This needs to be stated.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.116.12 (talk) 14:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Environmental Impact 

message: Where in the world is it called pentrite??  Msjayhawk (talk) 23:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pentrite 

message: I removed the following text from the lede, as it is inconsequential and too specific:
Dr. Greg Dicinoski of the University of Tasmania is working on creating a small portable unit that will detect the plastic explosive.
If there's something special about how PETN can be detected or its (non)detectability, this might merit mention under such a heading. 173.70.24.75 (talk) 18:00, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine removing from the lead, but appropriate for the article (elsewhere).--Epeefleche (talk) 22:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think it's appropriate anywhere in the article. This kind of trivia promoting random university researchers who just happen to be working on something related is a pervasive problem with Wikipedia technical articles. Are you going to name the other 500 groups working on this too? In the USA, the DoD is funding anybody with a pulse to do this stuff. If you want to add useful content, discuss the main avenues of research rather than just naming one guy out of hundreds, perhaps thousands. Tarchon (talk) 07:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detection Efforts 

message: It strikes me that this section contains far to much information about the 2010 cargo plane bomb plot.  I motion to delete all the material from "Both packages contained sophisticate" to "identified the bomb either.". NickCT (talk) 16:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and have trimmed the paragraph significantly.  Details belong at 2010 cargo plane bomb plot, not here.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 17:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree in part.  Deleted some of the still-existing info, and restored other material directly relevant to PETN characteristics and detection.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not relevant 

message: "PETN is difficult to detect in terrorist incidents because..." kind of implies that it is somehow not so difficult if there are no terrorists involved. I'm not sure that terrorism needs to be highlighted here, but definitely think this sentence needs to be worded better if it is to remain. Can't think of the best way to do that at the moment, so looking for suggestions. wjematherbigissue 00:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't read it that way.  But if you do, how would you re-word it?  Clearly, whether it is easy or difficult to detect is important in terrorist incidents.  In non-terrorist incidents, detection can be made by reading the labeling of the compound, presumably.  I would imagine, however, that in terrorist incidents security officials probably do not have the benefit of the PETN being labeled.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are making the assumption that only terrorists would have cause to try and evade detection, whereas I do not see it that way. wjematherbigissue 01:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea what you are getting at.  But in any event, I've put the text in the context in which the source mentioned it.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better, and clearer. wjematherbigissue 22:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Great -- I'm happy that you are happy.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detection - reword needed 

message: Under Explosive use, the third paragraph begins
:During the Second World War, PETN was most importantly used in exploding bridgewire detonator for the atomic bombs. PETN was chosen as safer: while it was sensitive, it would not detonate below a threshold amount of energy.
This looks as if it was carelessly edited down from some more detailed text. As it stands, the second sentence is almost meaningless. I see two problems:
#Safer than what? 
#"A threshold amount of energy" is vacuous: Any explosion requires some minimum amount of energy to initiate the reaction. What threshold? A particular value? a high value? We have a blank that needs to be filled in here in "a ____ threshold". 
-- Thnidu (talk) 02:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points.  Agree.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Safer than what? 

message: Bibliography no 15 don't work. 
Google Cache and at url http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/565/5890511956.png is copy  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.160.246.71 (talk) 17:49, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography no 15  

message: Non-relevant. Firstly, its already described in corresponding articles. 
Second, if it has some origin nature, can be motive for creating new article, not overhelming existing.Sanaris (talk) 20:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terroristic use & Detection 

message: Hans Michels, professor of safety engineering at University College London, told a newspaper that 6 grams (0.21 oz) of PETN—"around 50 times less than was used—would be enough to blast a hole in a metal plate twice the thickness of an aircraft's skin".[37] In contrast, according to an experiment conducted by a BBC documentary team designed to simulate Abdulmutallab's Christmas Day bombing, using a Boeing 747 airplane, even 80 grams of PETN was not sufficient to materially damage the airplane's fuselage.
:This suggests that either professor Michels or Dr. John Wyatt (who performed the simulation) is mistaken, but they are probably both right. 6 grams seems a reasonable amount when placed against the metal, much more would be needed in the simulation conditions, since the explosive was in the bombers underpants. 
:I'm not sure how to fix this without WP:OR, other than by removing the first sentence. Ssscienccce  (talk) 19:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also a difference between "just blew a hole in" and "materially damaged".  A small hole is not necessarily going to cause the aircraft to crash or even be in urgent distress.  Also, the detail design and placement of the charge matter significantly.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrepancy between amount needed to damage fuselage 

message: The article states that pentaerythritol tetranitrate was first prepared by Bernard Tollens and P. Wigand in 1891.  I have read the reference that was cited — B. Tollens and P.Wigand (1891) "Ueber den Penta-Erythrit, einen aus Formaldehyd und Acetaldehyd synthetisch hergestellten vierwerthigen Alkohol" (On pentaerythritol, a quaternary alcohol synthetically produced from formaldehyde and acetaldehyde), Annalen der Chemie, 265 :  316-340. — and I found no mention of the reaction of pentaerythritol with nitric acid (although there was a mention of the reaction of pentaerythritol with acetic acid).  
According to these sources:
*  Peter O. K. Krehl, History of Shock Waves, Explosions and Impact … (2009), p. 405.
*  Tadeusz Urbanski, Chemistry and Technology of Explosives, vol. 2 (1965), p. 175.
PETN was first prepared by the German explosives manufacturer Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff A.G. and patented in 1894 (Deutsches Reichspatent 81,664).  I am therefore correcting the article accordingly.  VexorAbVikipædia (talk) 13:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction:  First synthesis 

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thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

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