Talk:Nancy Wake

message: The article states "Wake and the members of her team accompanied groups of maquis in a three-day 150 kilometres (93 mi), retreat eastward to the village of Saint-Santin.[25]" However, the linked Saint Santin lies to the west of Mont Mouchet. Rvosa (talk) 23:47, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Geography

message: Citation #9 makes no reference to Wake's alleged response “Don’t give me that French shit" when a resistance fighter complimented her. I'm not sure where that information came from. Unless it can be verified it should be removed. I just read her autobiography which also references the same situation but she attributes no such comment to herself. 74.140.165.205 (talk)
She was formally known as a cheek.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.89.178 (talk) 03:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: “Don’t give me that French shit.”

message: Why is Wake not on This list? Dunc|☺ 14:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Um. Cos she didn't win the GC. That might be a good reason. Wallie (talk) 11:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  George Cross 

message: I have not been able to find on wikipedia, any detailed accounts of the resistance actions, howmuch they took German attention, during the war, any anti-resistance missions the germans sent etc. which I think would be interesting, because it gives a feel for life under occupation and how that related to the allied war effort. I'm not an expert on this, but are there any decent pages onwiki that do exist?
:No, there isn't much detailed information on the operations of the French Resistance on Wikipedia.  I suspect there's probably a pile of it on the French-language Wikipedia though. --Robert Merkel 00:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: questions

message: Nancy Wake is clearly a New Zealander, particularly as she was born there. However, as there is some dispute as to whether she calls herself an Australian, which has yet to be proven, it may be best to leave her nationality out of the article. Most artciles about Nancy Wake (other than those originating from Australia) simply mention she was born in New Zealand, which says it all, really. Wallie (talk) 18:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is certainly worth listing Australia as one of her allegiances, and I have added it; she did spend much of her life living in that country. I am unsure whether she ever became an Australian citizen. She stood in Australian federal elections; if Australian law prohibits non-citizens from becoming MPs (as New Zealand law does) then that would be a reasonable indication that she was a citizen.-gadfium 20:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Answer me one question. How come she possesses a New Zealand passport? (I don't know much about MPs, but I always thought that you needed to be a citizen before you are issued with a passport.) Wallie (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Why did you stop reading there? If you'd read on you'd have also noted this listed in the reference section, . Ernest the Sheep (talk) 22:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was refering to Wikipedia articles in other languages. You are quoting an Amazon commercial in French. There is even an American article which says she was born in Australia. People will say all sorts of things! Wallie (talk) 17:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I realise that you were referring to Wikipedia articles in other languages. I was merely pointing out that you had quite clearly failed to read the French article properly. The book I referred to was the French language version of Nancy Wake's autobiography. I would guess that the reason a lot of articles only mention she was born in New Zealand is that they have used the NZEdge article as their source, indeed if you had studied them a little more closely you would have observed that many were in fact reprints of the NZEdge article. If you perform a google search the NZEdge article turns out to be one of the first hits to be listed. It appears to have become something of a standard reference. This serves as an illustration of how easily misinformation and propaganda can be spread using the internet. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: I'd be happy with the compromise version of the article which begins 
:Nancy Grace Augusta Wake AC, GM (born August 30 1912) is the Allies' most decorated servicewoman...
::Comment: Is she the allies most decorated servicewomen of WW2? I would doubt it. A Soviet would probably hold this honor. I note that they have removed a similar comment about Audie Murphy, even though he probably is the most highly decorated American. Wallie (talk) 09:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: However, to state she is Australian in the lead paragraph, despite her birth in New Zealand (which doesn't appear to be disputed), and her keeping a New Zealand passport and considering herself a New Zealander (sourced by the NZEdge reference), appears to be POV. Clearly she has a connection with Australia - she lived there for most of her life. As discussed above, it is unclear whether she became an Australian citizen. She is notable for her actions in Europe, not Australia. Her actions in Australia alone, as a failed political candidate, would not warrant an article in Wikipedia.-gadfium 20:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Normally nationality is associated with a place of birth. Einstein is considered to be German, as he was born there. He does have a Swiss and American passport, having been made a citizen of these two countries, and living there. However, I have never heard of Einstein being described as a "Swiss". Nancy Wake should not be described as an "Australian", just because one person is determined to describe her as such. Indeed, this person appears to be able to conduct edit wars, and at the same time describes others who disagree with his approach as "vandals". To me calling her an "Australian war heroine" is deeply offensive. Even people like Alvin York and Audie Murphy are not described in this extreme way. Wallie (talk) 09:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would just like to say that evidence suggests Wake was in fact an Australian citizen. You must be a citizen to run for Parliament in Australia, and Wake was awarded a Companion of the Order of Australia; if she was not a citizen the AC would have been an hononary award, which it was not (see ). Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's good enough for me - I'll remove the tag. I note that Peter FitzSimons suggests that the reason Australia didn't give her any honours before this was simply because she had not fought with the Australian armed services - see Nancy Wake: A Biography of Our Greatest War Hero page 284.-gadfium 20:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: What is the purpose of the statement that: "She witnessed the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement, and witnessed the violence toward Jews, Gypsies, blacks and protesters on the Paris streets and in Vienna." Is this meant to be a general (though rather POV) reference to the background, or was she involved with this? It also rather implies Hitler came to power in Paris and Vienna rather than occupied those cities.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 20:33, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious

message: C'mon. Have a look at this about Noel Chavasse. . The guy to my mind did far more than Nancy Wake and is not described as a hero. Another is Wallenburg. . Again, he did more, to my mind, and yet he is not a "hero". Please save this term for fictional people like Batman. It has no place in this sort of article. Wallie (talk) 08:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe “hero” is a word that might easily be used to describe Chavasse. You are of course entitled to disagree, however I don’t think you’d need to look that hard to find instances when the word is used as a description. It’s POV I guess. However in the case of Nancy Wake, who was a civilian at the beginning of the war, I believe it to be appropriate. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I would agree with you that both Chavasse and Wake could be described as "heroes". My point is that this is a word that it not usually used in an encyclopedic article. The reader can look at the person's achievements and judge for themselves. Similarly, persons who you or I may consider as such are not described as "villains". Wallie (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is so much about the present Wikipedia Nancy Wake article that is not encyclopedic, I wouldn't worry too much about this one little thing. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

text: No words that make unmeasureable value judgements should be in an encyclopedia. This is important, as it's the sort of thing that will generally degrade the quality. I'm sick of hearing ingnorant ludites critisize Wikipedia; I'd hate for their critisisms to be true! --110.175.196.92 (talk) 04:16, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Heroine

message: This is highly debatable. Woman like this one are more highly decorated. . The are quite a few other alled, including Soviet women who did far more than did Nancy, and were more highly decorated, some even earning the "Hero of the Soviet Union" award, which is their highest and equivalent to the Medal of Honor.  Wallie (talk) 17:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair point. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 21:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. There are links all over the place that suggest that she is. I am unsure about this, and rather think she is probably not. There were a lot of women who took part in WW2, and to qualify the value of the medal collection to come up with number one would be a big ask. Wallie (talk) 17:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Most Highly Decorated Allied Servicewoman in WW2?

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:GeorgeMedalRibbon.jpg

message: She is clearly New Zealand and maybe others. As these others cannot be established, then leave it out! Wallie (talk) 10:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: This relates to the Service/Branch. This is clear: France and United Kingdom. Wallie (talk) 10:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Allegiance

message: Can this be added to the article?  Her story inspired Sebastian Faulks to write his 1999 novel Charlotte Gray, which was then turned into a movie of the same name. BBC obituary reference with this information: . 81.156.125.251 (talk) 11:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Her story inspired a novel 

message: Some obituaries which might be incorporated into the article:
* The Independent
* BBC
* The Guardian  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.23.85.168 (talk) 08:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obituaries 

message: In the Wartime service and Special Operations Executive section I read that:
* In 1943 she was the Gestapo's most-wanted person.
* In December 1943 the network was betrayed and she wad to flee Marseille.
* On 16 October 1943 Gestapo executed her husband.
Reading, it seems that her husband was killed before she departed. Or not?
: This confused the hell out of me too, especially since I don't have the original source to hand.  The Guardian and Telegraph obituaries don't clarify this either, so I've removed the confusing dates. --  23:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timing 

message: In my opinion, it's not essential to mention someones official nationality if instead you can say "Wake was born in NZ and lived in Australia" or some such. Or mention the dispute. Otherwise this thing will go on forever without a resolution.
Wake probably considered herself as much French and British as NZ or Australian!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronsdavis (talk • contribs) 04:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality YAWN 

message: IP 49.2.10.185 added a nice external link today, this one which is Nancy Wake interviewing Nancy Wake in 1997, but published yesterday on the website of a highly respected Australian caricaturist Mick Joffe. Moriori (talk) 04:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the obit in the Economist that states 500km not 500 miles http://www.economist.com/node/21525845?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/nancywakeobituary
--174.50.65.152 (talk) 12:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Nice link added today

message: How does the sentence "The Germans had an English spy, Sergeant Harold Cole, working for them" have context within the "Wartime service and Special Operations Executive" section?  It seems like a random statement, as Cole is not mentioned anywhere else in the article.  Should it be removed?  78.26 (I'm no IP, talk to me!) 13:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harold Cole 

message: The article gives the impression that Wake and her forces only fought Schutzstaffel forces. Did the Schutzstaffel even have 22,000 troops in the Auvergne? What about regular German troops? What about the Milice, the Carlingue, and the Special Brigades?
At a glance, 22,000 combatants is a crazily high estimate for SS presence.  It would be a pretty reasonable number for total Axis forces, though.  The linked source just says "German storm-troopers", which can imply SS but is far from a guarantee, so I'm going to change it accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.59.132 (talk) 17:12, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all. Waffen-SS units would have been there in these numbers.50.111.50.145 (talk) 11:16, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wake only fought the SS? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Nancy Wake served with the British but neither New Zealand nor Australia in the Second World War. This article describes two of the five awards she received for serving with the British as United Kingdom awards and three as Commonwealth of Nations awards. All five are Imperial (British) Honours which both New Zealand and Australia were full participants until the 1990s. If the GM and four campaign medals had been issued by Australia all the campaign medals would have been named. Australia was not involved with SOE France and would have no reason to recommend decorations for a person who had grown up in Australia but left more than ten years before the war and never served in the Australian forces. However, that did not stop suggestions from time to time being raised in the Australian media that her wartime work had been ignored by Australia which resulted in her characteristic blunt response to the question if offered a medal by the Australian Government. Anthony Staunton (talk) 01:31, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imperial (British) Honours  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'd not edited or even looked at wikipedia for many years but was still surprised to find that the previous agreements made concerning how the nationality of Wake should be described have been ignored. This is especially disappointing since many of the editors I debated this with back then are still active. The fact is that Wake is an Australian citizen, and identified herself as Australian throughout her life, whether in France or back home in Australia. I can find no evidence that she considered herself a New Zealander before Australian, although she did acknowledge both nationalities in the introduction of her autobiography. To misrepresent her nationality is actually very disrespectful to her memory. She was clearly a proud Australian, first and foremost, who happened to be born in New Zealand. I'm willing to compromise on this, but it is essential that her Australian identity is acknowledged.Kiwi Les (talk) 23:28, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You might solve the problem by describing her as a New Zealand-born Australian. Smallchief (talk) 00:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

text: She "proclaimed to the New Zealand Press Association in Sydney (Evening Post, April 30, 1994)  that she was still a New Zealander and reminded the press that she had kept her New Zealand passport, despite her 80 year absence from the country." NZ Edge - Warriors - Nancy Wake-gadfium 01:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  That NZ Edge article from which you have pulled that quote was mentioned in the previous debate on this topic, when we supposedly arrived at a consensus. I believe you actually participated in that discussion, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have simply forgotten. The NZ Edge website is obviously very parochial, which is to be expected. Problem is it is also misleading.Kiwi Les (talk) 02:34, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprofessionalism of my fellow Kiwi editors