Talk:Resurrection of Jesus/Archive 5

message: Part of this article was claiming that puncturing the pericardium (the membrance surrounding the heart) would be fatal. A watery substance can't be found in the pericardium. Indeed, the fluid within the pericardium is viscous and would not flow from a wound like water. The purpose of the fluid in between the inner and outer membranes of the pericardium is that of lubrication. Also the fluid helps absorb heat. Heart surgury (invasive) requires cutting the pericardium to get to the heart. Also, heart function does not require functioning pericardium although the pericardium helps protect the heart from bruising. Clearly the claim that blood and water gushed from the wound is scientifically spurious, as pericardial fluid is too viscous to gush. Also, the amount of fluid within the pericardium is about between 50-75ml. Thats about as much as a large mouthfull. Hardly enough to justify the terms gushing/flowing.86.4.59.203 01:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I read somewhere that the blood and water were probably clotted blood and serum respectively. rossnixon 00:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not quite sure we are on the same track. I was refering to the passage in this article that quotes the gospel of John "The Gospel of John says that a soldier pierced Jesus' side, causing the flow of blood and water". The comment next to this quote claims that the soldier must have pierced the pericardium (to account for water flowing from the wound).86.4.59.203 00:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Gospels don't say that water "gushed", merely flowed - the gush part is from the movies. Lostcaesar 07:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok dude, flowed it is then.86.4.59.203 01:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pericardium fluid

message: I'm going ahead and removing the image of a random spear with the caption that states it's the actual spear described as having pierced Jesus's side, as there's clearly no basis for it.  If there's a reason for it being there, someone please say something.  68.187.225.59 07:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lance of Longinus Graphic 

message: The following template:
has this recent Edit history in the article (including Edit summary where provided):
:04:22, 7 March 2007 Thomasmeeks (Moving, redating, & changing nuclear More-sources template, which is obviously inaccurate as a generalization for the article as whole to the first section where it seems [as 7 March 2007] to apply seriously)
:04:43, 15 March 2007 Sefringle
:16:32, 15 March 2007 Thomasmeeks (More-sources template at top removed (see new sect 17 Talk:Death and resurrection of Jesus#More-sources template disputed in this article; sect. 3.4 (incl. ref.)}
 
The relevant (help) section from that template is a Wikipedia guideline (indented below and followed by a comment):
===Templates===
:The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged by this or any other guideline. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with the other editors on the article.
:Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent and accurate style across articles, while other editors find them annoying, particularly when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and therefore harder to edit. Some templates (such as  and ) now also include machine-readable COinS tags.
:Because they are optional, editors should not add templates without consensus.
There is no consensus on that template.  That guideline should be observed. An objection to the template is stated above in the 04:22, 7 March 2007 Edit summary.  Let me slightly elaborate on that.  The template is unusually distracting in length.  It insinuates plagiarism without substantiation.  The word "may" in the template is the operative weasel word here.  If lack of citations alone is the problem, there are better templates to address that.  The article is replete with citations, reducing the plausibility of plagiarism.  If there is plagiarism, please, let's fix it in every instance.  The ampleness of citation for this article is high.  Imputing or suggesting plagiarism seems gratuitous in the absence of detailed evidence.  --Thomasmeeks 16:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has legnthy sections with about every sentence tagged for citation, I believe this template fits the article at its current state.  All it means is that there is work to do, improvement needed. Lostcaesar 09:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More-sources template disputed in this article

message: :The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged by this or any other guideline. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with the other editors on the article.
:Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent and accurate style across articles, while other editors find them annoying, particularly when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and therefore harder to edit. Some templates (such as  and ) now also include machine-readable COinS tags.
:Because they are optional, editors should not add templates without consensus.
There is no consensus on that template.  That guideline should be observed. An objection to the template is stated above in the 04:22, 7 March 2007 Edit summary.  Let me slightly elaborate on that.  The template is unusually distracting in length.  It insinuates plagiarism without substantiation.  The word "may" in the template is the operative weasel word here.  If lack of citations alone is the problem, there are better templates to address that.  The article is replete with citations, reducing the plausibility of plagiarism.  If there is plagiarism, please, let's fix it in every instance.  The ampleness of citation for this article is high.  Imputing or suggesting plagiarism seems gratuitous in the absence of detailed evidence.  --Thomasmeeks 16:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has legnthy sections with about every sentence tagged for citation, I believe this template fits the article at its current state.  All it means is that there is work to do, improvement needed. Lostcaesar 09:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Templates

message: I have removed:
"Today, there are over two billion Christians worldwide, many of whom openly claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus, and more who testify to the coming of the Holy Spirit; by Christian theology, these are made possible by the Resurrection."
This assumes the resurrection as a fact and is both unsourced and fails NPOV. Whether there was a resurrection is for the reader to decide based on the facts and the concept of  a 'personal relationship with Jesus' is simply unprovable. Also, this para has been inserted out of context with the thread of the rest of the section. BlueValour 23:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal relationship 

message: It seems to me that the fact that it is disputed that the resurrection occurred needs to be included in the lead para. The lead para should summarise the article hence this balancing POV should be included there. I have moved the balancing para up to make it clear at the outset that there are two points of view. BlueValour 23:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I understand the desire, I only took out the section because of problems particular to it, not in regards to the desire to say that some people doubt the resurrection (true enough).  I don’t like the idea of backing up a sentence that says “Jews, Muslims, and Atheists” doubt the resurrection with a quote from a debate where one side characterizes the other (unarticulated side) as wrong.  In other words, I think we just need to be a little less loose with the sources.  I think that source is fine, by the way, but I think its being pushed into saying something that, though true enough in its own right, isn’t precisely what it aims to say, or at least in that context.  Lostcaesar 00:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Overall, the lead does a poor job of summarizing the article. If I find the time, I'll give the lead and this article some attention. If anyone else wants to pitch in an help make the lead summarize the article, I'd be grateful. Jonathan Tweet 01:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead para

message: The deleted material is:
:A disproportionate attention was given the Resurrection by comparison with the consideration given to the cross. About one-fourth of the material in the four Gospels deals with the cross.(fn.: Filson, Jesus Christ the Risen Lord. NY: Abingdon Press, 1956, p. 111) The cross never was considered more important than the Resurrection, but the significance of the cross was more difficult to explain. The death of Christ came as a shock even to his closest followers. To them it was a major problem to faith that Jesus be the Messiah. Paul spoke of the "scandal" of the cross ().Stagg, Frank. New Testament Theology. Nashville: Broadman Press, 1962. 
:However, the Resurrection only had to be announced by those who saw the risen Lord. No elaborate resurrection narrative or defense was required. 
The 1st sentence of the deleted 3rd para. violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view & Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable sources.  It is unsubstantiated by the cites of Filson, p. 111 (at questia) & Paul. The 3rd sentence is plain POV, hatched as obscurity.   The rest of the paragraph is provides neither WP:LEAD#context nor accessibility for the article that follows.  Charitably interpreted, the deleted 1st 2 sentences of the 4th para. seem to refer the end of the previous para. and do not fit the rest of the paragraph either in substance or implicature. --Thomasmeeks 14:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted 3rd para. & 4th para., 1st 2 sentences

message: I can understand wanting to make the LEAD more concise, and to combine the information on holidays/liturgical days into one sentence. However, the sentence in the article now is problematic: These two events are essential doctrines of the Christian faith, and are commemorated by Christians during the liturgical times of Passiontide and Eastertide, particularly during Holy Week. This sentence has a very strong Catholic slant to it. "Passiontide" and "Eastertide" are not the most notable terms for this 'season', and these articles deal with that Catholic/Orthodox position. I think the links to Good Friday and Easter are a lot better. Also, mentioning that every Sunday worship is related to the resurrection is also important. Maybe we could make two sentences. One about Good Friday and easter, and one about the Catholic/Orthodox liturgical seasons. This way, we aren't excluding protestants and other Christian celebrations.-Andrew c 15:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine.  I was just trying to make it a shorter lead.  I didn't really think passiontide and eastertide would slant the lead, but that's just because it seemed the naturally way to talk about it.  If its a problem then please correct it.  Lostcaesar 20:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was coming here to see if anyone agreed with me, and if someone could propose something. I'm familiar enough with Christianity in the US to know that Passiontide and Eastertide are almost never heard, and I hear stuff like Good Friday, Easter, and Lent. And judging by the articles wikilinked, at least the articles are from a Catholic/Orthodox POV where I think we should at least link to some that include protestant POV. But besides that, I'm unsure of a better wording. I'll give it some more thought, and hopefully someone else will comment (or you can take my concerns under consideration and try something yourself.) Thanks for your comment.-Andrew c 21:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we could say something like, "Christian groups that do not employ a liturgical calendar often still celebrate Easter, and Christians consider all Sunday (what's the word... services?) to be a commemoration of the resurrection."  It'd be best if another editor could change the text.  I'm not well versed enough with how non-liturgical Christians would talk about their - eh, liturgies? - so if I reworte it then it would just have the same unintentional slant, if you see what I mean.  Lostcaesar 22:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even Christian groups who employ a liturgical calendar don't all use the terms "passiontide" and "eastertide." The lead should at least refer to Good Friday and Easter. Jonathan Tweet 01:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liturgy 

message: ::I agree that statements about what secular scholars believe about Jesus warrants citations. For example, do secular scholars believe there was a Jesus and that he was crucified? HOWEVER, if I understand Sefringle correctly, what he or she means by "secondary sources" is unwarranted and impossible. There are no authoritative "secondary, non-faith related sources" of information about Jesus. Yes, modern archeology has provided us with some insight into the 1st century: about historical events and how some people lived. However, EVERYTHING we know specifically about "the historical Jesus", his meaning, and mission _ultimately_ comes ONLY through the Catholic Church--a faith-based organization. The Canon of the Bible itself was decided upon by Catholic Bishops and the communities that preserved the writings that compose the Canon were also self-identified as Catholic--under the guidance and jurisdiction of a hierarchy Bishops and a Pope who were also all self-identified as "Catholic." Other ideas about Jesus, such as popular opinions about the "historical Jesus," an idea with roots ONLY in 19th century German philology, are pure fiction, fabrication, and nonsense. The ONLY resource from which one can legitimately gain any information about "the historical Jesus" is the Bible. And the only legitimate "secondary sources" to be had are commentaries about the Bible--of which only those written by Christians hold any water even in the secular academic community (e.g., Raymond E. Brown).
::I would agree that different Christian sects hold varying opinions about various aspects of the Christian faith, but that does not appear to be the issue that Sefringle is raising. Regarding the particular statements Sefringle flagged, as the statements are clearly of a literal nature and DIRECTLY supported by Biblical passages (which are cited), the Bible itself provides more than enough warrant for their inclusion. Regarding the accusation that the statements are POV, since the statements are supported directly by Bible passages that are clearly intended to be taken literally and, furthermore, which are accepted by all mainstream Christian denominations, the POV claim is without warrant. To suggest otherwise betrays a naïve and sophomoric understanding of Jesus studies and the current state of mainstream Biblical scholarship. I would strongly recommend Joseph Ratzinger's recent work, "Jesus of Nazareth," as well as the academic debate it has launched.LCP 16:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Religous scholars can be used to for religous statements. People interprit religous texts, accept parts, and reject other parts, and take parts out of context. They do not make explicit statements. That is why some scholar on Christianity needs to be quoted with the religous statements.--Sefringle 05:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would totaly agree with that. As I had read what you wrote, it sounded like you were looking for secular scholars. That is what I was arguing against.LCP 15:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume that when you say "religious statements," you are differentiating between what appear in texts to clearly be statements of fact upon which all Christians agree, such as a physical death and resurrection, and doctrinal or speculative statements, such as what Jesus intended when he tells Peter, "feed my sheep."LCP 23:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is correct.--Sefringle 01:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Bible is warrant enough for the claims in question

message: :Interesting comments from Hrankowski.
:First, I think it may be possible to find scholarly sources to comment on the fact that there is no record of a corpse or of soldiers being punished. However, I think the “Ressurection of Jesus” section needs to be broken into two parts, one for “Proofs of the resurrection” and another “Arguments against the resurrection.” The statement in question would go into the proofs section. 
:Second, before including statements from the Talmud, I think you'd have to demonstrate why its testimony, as a CE 200-500 document, is credible and accepted by scholars as providing at least some legitimate testimony about Jesus (as opposed to being merely polemical).
:Third, I just Googled “Jesus in the Talmud,” and I came up with the following pages that strongly refute that Jesus of Nazareth is even mentioned in the Talmud: , .
:If you could overcome these issues, perhaps you could add a section (or new page) titled "Jesus and the ressurection in the Talmud." Such a section might be warranted in any case if there are many who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is spoken of in the Talmud. Such an article could go a long way toward dispelling ignorance about what claims the Talmud makes about Jesus of Nazareth.
:LCP 23:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jesus in the Talmud

message: Why is there nothing about the age of Jesus when he died? I wanted to look up whether Jesus died in 33 A.D. or when he was actually 33 years old. I was reading recently that most biblical scholars now believe that he was actually born in 7 B.C.
Anyway, that was my question. I expected Wikipedia to have an answer for it (as I always do) :). Esptoronto 16:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus died at 33 years old or 33 A.D.? 

message: The phrasing of this sentence seems a little weasely to me.  I've never heard the word Irreligionists used before, and "have disputed the historical occurrence" seems like a rather weak way of saying "question whether Jesus was actually resurrected". johnpseudo 19:17, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Other groups such as Jews, Muslims and Irreligionists, have disputed the historical occurrence of the resurrection"

message: This article doesn't actually tell the story of Jesus' crucifixion or resurrection. Wouldn't it be a good idea to include it?--Jcvamp 01:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I imported the text from the main Jesus article that covers this section of the narrative. Feel free to expand it, or expand any of the on-Gospel accounts. -Andrew c 02:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Story 

message: I am removing the sentence below. Apart from being of very little or no importance, there is no citation, Nicolai Notovitch is not a respected historian in this field, and the dogmatic beliefs of "the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement," founded in the 20th century, cannot possibly be of interest to history or archeology.
"Documents found by Russian historian Nicolai Notovitch claim that Jesus was resuscitated and lived the remainder of his life in Kashmir, where there exists a possible tomb for Jesus, under the name Yuz Asaf. This is also the belief of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement."
LCP 22:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether something is personally silly to us or not is not a valid wikipedia criteria for inclusion. We have the NPOV policy. Since the Ahmadiyya Movement is mentioned in the top tier article, Jesus, it only makes sense to mention them in the spin out articles. In fact, more trivial (but still notable) topics usually are pushed out of the main article into more appropriate spinout articles, per the NPOV guidelines. I believe that this POV, regardless how silly it is, is notable enough to be mentioned in brief, as it was, and I would urge placing it back into the article. I will do the legwork in making sure the sentence is sourced, if that will satisfy the concerns of LCP. -Andrew c 23:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That it is personally silly to me is NOT why I removed it. I removed it for the reasons I listed. I am sorry my header confused you. To avoid future problems, I've changed the header to clarify my meaning--that I mistakenly assumed other editors would gather from the reasons I listed. Regardless, I was not aware that the Ahmadiyya Movement was listed in the Jesus article. Granted that, I would support Alexander c's Andrew c's reintroduction of the text if he can find the references, and I would also like to see this and the Jesus article expanded to include the opinions of every other group or source that claims to have knowledge of Jesus: Hindu, Buddhist, Bahai, Branch Dividian, Dan Brown, Peoples Temple, Talmud, Communist, Nietzschian. While these movements are not all of equal stature or importance, historical or otherwise, they, and probably many others that don’t come to mind, all deserve a voice.LCP 23:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure why you altered my username. That said, I am also not sure if your request is serious or not. On the main Jesus article, we already cover the Hindu, Buddhist, and Bahai views, and we cover the Dan Brown/Holy Blood view and the Talmud view in other spinout articles related to Jesus. Communism, being a political/economic ideology seems completely irrelevant here, as does Nietzschian. The Peoples Temple and Branch Davidians seems to be such small sects that their views should be discussed only on articles about those movements, but not on articles further up the tier, per NPOV undue weight guidelines. So if you were being serious, I am going to disagree that every single view needs to be presented here. I also do not believe that groups listed have unique views on Jesus' death and resurrection that are not already covered in the article. If you were being sarcastic, please don't make unserious suggestions to make a WP:POINT. I'll try and source the removed text and edit the article accordingly in a few days.-Andrew c 23:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Along the lines of the “NPOV undue weight guidelines” that you suggest, Nicolai Notovitch has no place in this article. While I can agree with you about the Ahmadiyya Movement, if you insist on including Notovitch, it follows, contrary to your unwarranted assertions to the contrary, that every other imaginable character and sect should also be included.LCP 00:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 
Removal of silliness
 Unwaranted/unimportant claims