Talk:Catholic University of Leuven (1834–1968)

message: I strongly oppose the merge as suggested a few days ago (without even an edit summary!). Per the above reasoning, this article is about the unified University. Linking it to the French one (or to the Flemish one) would exclude half of its descendants, and duplicating the info would be overkill. What's wrong with the current situation? Fram 12:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: Hi everyone. When I stumbled upon this merge proposal, I checked out what was the situation on the french Wikipedia.
Even though some articles are still stubs in other languages, I think Lenthe's suggestion should be adapted in this fashion:
* Catholic University of Leuven: Becomes disambiguation page
** Interwiki: :fr:Université catholique de Louvain
* Catholic University of Leuven (Leuven): Page with the common history, alumni, etc.
** Current: Catholic University of Leuven
** Interwiki: :fr:Université catholique de Louvain (Louvain)
* Catholic University of Leuven (Louvain-la-Neuve): Modern French University
** Current: Université catholique de Louvain
** Interwiki: :fr:Université catholique de Louvain (Louvain-la-Neuve)
* Catholic University of Leuven (Katholieke Universiteit Leuven): Modern Dutch University
** Current: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
** Interwiki: :fr:Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
I believe the Dutch Wikipedia currently has only two pages:
* :nl:Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
* :nl:Université catholique de Louvain
Following this example, I believe the four pages suggestion should provide the best interwiki template to preserve neutrality.
So this is my take on the question. Hope it helps : )
Stéphane Thibault 01:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Because of that, I think the main article should be Katholieke Universiteit Leuven; Université catholique de Louvain should mention the common history in a stub section, with a  label.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 17:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, it seems this has not been implemented yet? It is actually very difficult to find this page, because there are no links from Louvain, the present Flemish or the present Walloon university.--Pan Gerwazy 08:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interwiki Examples 

message: I added Antoni Baranowski to the alumni list, and beacuse of the initials noticed that Aster Berkhof was second in the list, although the list was supposed to be chronological. Whoever added that one without a birth date (I think Aster is still alive) has made us face the problem that people have been adding additional alumni without specifying dates of birth and death. I do not really feel like solving all this mess on my own, but anyone adding his pet author or scientist should specify these dates, and put him or her in the chronological order according to birth. Undated alumni should just remain at the end of the list.
I will delete any alumnus/a added without these dates. Since this University no longer exists de facto if not de jure, any non-Belgian alumnus/a added should be notable already, and have a Wikipedia article on them. I will delete any alumnus/a who is not notable.--Pan Gerwazy 08:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alumni list 

message: This article needs sections about student life, like in TCD and Harvard
Bogger 20:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kots, KAPs, Cercles, AGL etc. 

message: I've cleaned up and slightly extended this as the pre-1968 article and edited :Université catholique de Louvain and :Katholieke Universiteit Leuven as post-1968 (hiving off the pre-1968 history and the alumni they claim, for instance, with a reference to here as the article on the historical university).
Help sorting out the links would be nice :) I've done most of them already, but there are still 100+ linking to :University of Leuven (which has become a disambiguation page instead of a misleading redirect to Katholieke Universiteit Leuven).
"University of Louvain" now redirects to the disambiguation page (there are still about a dozen links to there that need sorting out)
:Leuven University and :Louvain University have also become redirects to the disambiguation page; they each still have one link (both alumni I can't place).
I've rewritten the 1968 split and I'd appreciate a check for NPOV: I work at the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven but can't stand the place (I do have happy memories of being a guest lecturer in the Université catholique). I don't know if that cancels out of not ...
--Paularblaster 00:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation / Clean-up / Disambiguation 

message: Since this is supposed to be the historic English name, shouldn't it be the Catholic University of Louvain? I've always seen the French name of the town in historical sources. Accounts of the burning of the library in WWI, for example, use "Louvain". The Dutch name doesn't seem to have become common until after WWII. kwami (talk) 17:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Current English usage is to prefer the language spoken in the place in question; pre-WWII English usage for Belgian placenames was to use the French version, regardless. So we have a situation where present-day historians (such as Craig Harline, for instance), are using placenames that their not-so-distant predecessors would not have used. Because the Dutch name is current usage, I think we should use it (we are, after all, writing now, not 50 years ago); but because the French name was common until relatively recently, we should certainly keep "Louvain" as a redirect and an alternative in the lead (where I'm glad to see you've added it). Back in the day that there was a notable English presence in Leuven, in the 16th/17th centuries, it was often called "Loven" in English, but I hardly think that this being a "historic English name" is an argument for moving the page to "Loven", or even (it being so very historic) for introducing "Loven" as a redirect. --Paularblaster (talk) 22:43, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic University of Louvain? 

message: Why is that phrase annotated as being French, when it's not... AnonMoos (talk) 10:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you tried clicking the link? --Paularblaster (talk) 09:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Walen buiten?

message: This article is concerning the Catholic University of Leuven founded in 1834, but it makes a confusion with the two others Universities established in Louvain: the Old University of Louvain (1425-abolished in 1797) and the State University of Louvain (founded in 1817 and abolished in 1835). The list of notable alumni makes also a confusion between the students of those three universities! This article should be amended in accordance with the historical reality. --Bruxellensis (talk) 12:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic University of Leuven founded in 1834

message: Someone recently went over the existing three articles and added a fourth "Old University" one, arguing (in broken English) that the existing universities were founded in 1834 as imposter successors to the 1425 institution.  This hardly seems like an NPOV reading of history, and is at best gives the wrong impression about how KULeuven and UCL understand themserves, as the big "1425" on the university seal makes clear.  Besides grammar fixing I think that the articles should present the universities as they are generally viewed first and then confine any criticism of this common understanding to a "criticism" section.
As it stands now it looks a bit like it would if someone went over all the pages on British monarchs and re-wrote the intros from a Jacobite viewpoint.
--194.98.58.121 (talk) 13:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This seal with the date 1425 is not an old medieval seal, it is created in the year 1909! The seal of the Old University of Louvain, abolished in the year 1797, was a Saint Peter with a book. And what are you doing with the State University of Louvain, a laïcal, neutral and non-confessional University, and with it's 8000 students who are the founders of Belgium? Nobody can say that they are alumni of the "Catholic University of Leuven". The historical reality is complicated and it is bether to describe this reality than to create an historical fiction.--Bruxellensis (talk) 14:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved this section to the bottom of the page to restore the chronological order. I fully agree with IP 194.98.58.121. This discussion has since long been going on in the French Wikipedia and even for some time in the German Wikipedia. User:Bruxellensis seems to be on some kind of mission to rewrite all articles related to the Catholic University of Leuven from his own viewpoint. This opinion is however only supported by a minority of historians and certainly not conform with the self-conception of KULeuven and UCL. Such views should only be presented in a "criticism" chapter, as IP 194.98.58.121 pointed out. I will therefore revert the changes made by User:Bruxellensis. -- Athenchen (talk) 20:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. But I hope that an other person than I will remake this article  in concordance with the historical facts that everibody can read in the historical articles. They ware three different Universities at Louvain. The Old University of Louvain, the champion of the Jansenismus in Europa, than the State University of Louvain and than the Catholic University of Louvain founded at Malines in 1834 without any links with the Old University, all the historians know that. Your version is nothing other than an historical fiction. Four a German the history of the State University of Louvain is very interesting, because that was the only exemple of a pacifical expension of the German culture in Europe... and it is a pity that you will erase the memory of this university, according with the faultif "official history". The catholic university founded in 1834 (that had provocate severe riots in Belgium) is founded in Malines without any links with the Old Alma Mater. All what I have writen in this article is historicaly exact and accurate. I considere this article as an historical hoax.--Bruxellensis (talk) 13:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  So now we have four articles? 

message: This sentence is incorrect:
*"After the disruptions of the French Revolutionary Wars, it was refounded in 1816 as State university of Louvain
*and converted into the Catholic University of Leuven in 1835."
Indeed the founders of the State University have never claimed to be the successors or refounder of the Old University, you dont have the right to accuse him to have make this untruthfulness, they have declared that this new university was founded in 1817.
The old University was not an episcopal University but as Oxford and the other medieval Universities, not a "catholic university" but an "university in a Catholic world". It was abolished in 1797 and nobody hat the right to say that it  was converted into the Catholic University of Leuven in 1835": that's an exemple of an historical construction... The introduction has to be modified so:
The Catholic University of Mechlin, which then becomes the Catholic University of Louvain (in Latin, :la:Universitas Catholica Lovaniensis, in Dutch, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven ) is a Belgian university, founded in Mechlin November 8, 1834 by the bisshops of Belgium and formally installed on 1 December 1835 in LeuvenWe remind here this ruling of the Cour de Cassation of Belgium of 26 November 1846: "The Catholic University of Leuven can not be regarded as continuing the old University of Louvain", in, Table générale alphabétique et chronologique de la Pasicrisie Belge contenant la jurisprudence du Royaume de 1814 à 1850, Brussels, 1855, p. 585, column 1, alinea 2. See also: Bulletin Usuel des Lois et Arrêtés‎, 1861, p.166.
Thank you four our attention .--Bruxellensis (talk) 14:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples of historical errors

message: Good morning, you write that it is a majority (a consensus) against the modifications of the historicals errors of this article! But history is not a lottery! You have to read the French, Dutch and Latin articles and you wil see that this version of the english Wikipedia is an "historical hoax". You make a confusion between the three Universities who have had her seat at Louvain. The public hat the right to now the true history of the tree differents Universities of Louvain. It is also absurd to see the names of old students of the State University of Louvain with names of students of the Catholic University.--Bruxellensis (talk) 07:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but your position is clearly a minority viewpoint. The Catholic Encyclopedia , KUL , UCL  and Britannica  all give 1425 as the founding date and identify them as the same institution. In the top 30 Google hits, there's nothing that says otherwise. At most, there should be a short paragraph in the article explaining that some historians believe they should not be identified as the same institution. This is in accordance with WP:UNDUE. Oreo Priest talk 20:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also sory but what I wrhite is not an opinion it is only the description of the historical facts. All the historical sources and serious historians now this facts. You have mentionned an article of the Catholical Encyclopedy of 1910, but this article don't speak of the "Catholic University of Louvain" but of the "University of Louvain" and make a difference between those two differents Institutions, the lecturer can see that it is no continuation between those two different institutions. The other sources are only publicitarian sources. I am also supprised that you have censured the decision of the Supreme Court of Belgium Court of Cassation (Belgium) of 26 November 1846: "The Catholic University of Leuven can not be regarded as continuing the old University of Louvain", in, Table générale alphabétique et chronologique de la Pasicrisie Belge contenant la jurisprudence du Royaume de 1814 à 1850, Brussels, 1855, p. 585, column 1, alinea 2. See also: Bulletin Usuel des Lois et Arrêtés‎, 1861, p.166. The Englispeaking public hat the right to now the very history of the three Universities of Louvain and nobody had the right to offense not only the ruling of the Supreme Court of Belgium but above all the verity of the facts. With regards (sorry for my pitty English).--Bruxellensis (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "No continuation between those two different institutions"? The Catholic Encyclopedia uses the word "restored", while Britannica uses the word "reestablished". And these, I'm afraid, are mainstream sources. Let me be clear, the article should mention your points, but they should not dominate it. Also, it looks like you're right about the State University not being part of it. Oreo Priest talk 14:38, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is an amelioration! but the words "restored" and "reetablished" are utilised only "motu proprio" for the first time in 1909 and don't correspond with the reality of the facts! The Catholic University of Mechlin was founded by the bishops without any material link with the Old University. None of the professors of the Old University have tought in the Catholic University, but in contrary several of him have tought in the State University! The Old University was not closed in the "troubles of the Revolution" (1789) but had continued in the time of the Revolution! It is officialy supprimed by the Directoire after the Traity of campo Formio when Belgium was officialy a part of the French Republic (the Emperor had given the Souvereinity of Belgium to France). The French, Latin and Netherlands Wikipedia give a correct historical vision, and I think that the English reader have also the right to have similaries articles. Thank you four your (little) modifications, it is a good beginning.--Bruxellensis (talk) 15:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

text: I recommand you the lecture of this book: *R. Mathes, Löwen und Rom. Zur Gründung der Katholischen Universität Löwen unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der Kirchen-und Bildungspolitik Papst Gregors XVI, Essen, 1975. --Bruxellensis (talk) 15:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's assume for the moment that everything you claim is strictly correct, despite the mainstream sources saying otherwise (as may very well be the case). If it is conventional to identify them with each other, then that's what we should do. So here's what I propose: you add a section in the article saying that they were strictly speaking different legal entities, and that some dispute this identification. Cite appropriately. But we're not breaking apart the article because mainstream sources certainly don't. What do you think? Oreo Priest talk 21:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

text: (Edit conflict) I'm sorry but I'm really quite fed up with this discussion. Bruxellensis, you have made a mess of this topic in the French, Dutch, Latin and now the English wikipedia. You have created endless kilobytes defending your minority point of view and bloated the histories of all the articles concerned by endless reverting and editing. While in the beginning I blamed your assumed inexperience for your annoying behaviour, this can no longer serve as an excuse. Your edits clearly don't contribute to the quality of this encyclopedia and I would kindly ask you to refrain from further deteriorating these pages. Even so it will take a lot of time to clean up the chaos you have created. There is no need to repeat your theories once again and to cite historians that support your view. It has been explained to you by several users on several projects that these views are not "banned" from the article, but that they have to be presented in the proper place, such as a "criticism" chapter. I hope that this puts an end to a discussion that has already since too long been going on. -- Athenchen (talk) 22:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

text: I see that you now very good the aristotelican logic! (Asserit A negat E verum generaliter ambo: A people as the Greeks have an historical continuation, secundum leges naturae, we are here speaking of an institution created by the men not by the nature, secundum leges hominum.). I think that the principal here is that the public can have a complete historical dossier, with all the parameters so that he can self have a good vision of the succesive universitarian life in Louvain. I think that now the article can remain so, because he don'nt give the impression that from 1425 to 2010 the same University is remained without interruption. The reality is respected. The reality is always abundant and varied. Thank you four your ameliorations, the public can now have a good informed opinion. I give here my historical opinion: for me the Catholic University of Louvain is a new gregorian university and not a medieval university. The biginning of an institution is very important, because it is it's "genetical code", Pythagoras said that "the beginning is the half of the all", and ideed the beginning remains determinant. An institution of the XIX century don't have the same genetical code that an institution of the middel age.--Bruxellensis (talk) 12:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of [[Catholic University of Louvain]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Consensus would be needed for any major change to the lead. Undiscussed pointy edits are not helpful, especially when they have poor syntax. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It is clear the 1425 university was a distinct and separate institution from the current one founded in 1834. But this article seems to mention this quite correctly. PCC7500 (talk) 09:33, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Any article can be improved and none can be considered definitive. The introduction of the article gives the impression that there is continuity between the old University of Leuven and the new Catholic University. She says : "The Catholic University of Leuven founded in 1425 in Leuven as the University of Leuven" and that the same university was "transferred to Mechelen as the Catholic University of Mechelen in 1834 and returned to the town of Leuven in 1835". This introduction is ambiguous and gives the impression that it is the "Catholic university" that was founded in 1425. In addition the introduction ignores the existence of the State University of Leuven, where many professors from the old university have taught (why this « damnatio memoriae »). The modification of this preface is necessary so as not to mislead the reader. In addition it is a personal point of view to claim that it: "is considered the largest, oldest and most prominent university in Belgium". The two oldest universities in Belgium that exist without interruption are the Universities of Liège and Ghent founded in 1817. The true story of the old University of Leuven is still ignored and taboo. There is no historical work dedicated to it despite the fact that its archives are part of Unesco's heritage, as someone wrote: « Although the archives of the old University of Leuven have been recognized as world heritage by Unesco, it has remained taboo in its history. Until today there is no complete history of the University of Leuven. The history of the old university has so far been described primarily subjectively and fragmentarily. Mainly due to the fact that this history clashes with the official but largely artificial historical story that the Catholic University of Leuven has given of itself to the public, as the continuation of the former University of Leuven (1425-1797)». Another question, why remove the reference to the Treaty of Campo Formio by Jules Delhaize ? Best regards.--Viator (talk) 20:29, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If you skip enough text, you can read it indeed in an ambiguous way. But that is the nice part of the full text: it is clear. The removal of the valid source is also strange. Why was this done? The Banner talk 20:52, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I mishandled the source. I have reinstated it, but moved it a bit. The sources (or at least the given quote) is only about the treaty and says nothing about the university. In the present form that source is useless for this article. The Banner talk 21:05, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  1425 

message: History does not depend on a vote or a consensus, but on the evidence of the facts. The current introduction was introduced recently on (cur | prev) 20:36, 4 January 2019 Huguespotter (talk | contribs). . (24.166 bytes) (+164). . (undo | thank). This text deceives the reader because it makes believe that the Catholic University of Louvain was founded in 1425. This is an example of protochronism and distortion of history. In the name of historical truth it is necessary to put back the old introduction. Example of errors of the preface: It is wrong to write that "The Catholic University of Leuven was founded in 1425", since it was founded in 1834. It was not founded as University of Leuven, closed by the French Republic in 1797. It was not transferred to Mechelen at the Catholic University of Mechelen, but was founded in Mechelen in 1834. It did not "return" to Leuven in 1835 but was established in Leuven in 1835.--Viator (talk) 07:35, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but consensus is also not based on editwarring and POV-pushing. The Banner talk 08:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The only thing I suggest to change is replace "transferred to Mechelen" with "refounded in Mechelen" le something alike. From what I'm aware, not much was physically transferred from Louvain to Mechlin, as both the universities of Louvain (State University) & Mechlin briefly coexisted. The state university closed and the Catholic University of Belgium moved from Mechlin to Louvain. From there on, a lot of continuity is noted between the Old University of Louvain, thé State Uni and the Catholic Uni which directly continued it. Many links can be found between these institutions, from the buildings used and the professors & staff to the welcome by Leuven's city council itself, the city's development around the University, etc. Most notably, the contribution of many, many encyclopedic and historical sources stating continuity between 1425 and the Catholic Uni must not be ignored. "Returned to the town of Leuven" is thus an acceptable way of putting things.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PCC7500 (talk • contribs) 20:37, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The private Catholic University of Louvain is not a "refounfing" of the Old University suppressed like all the universities of France by a law. The territory of the current Belgium was part of the French Republic in international law after the Treaty of Campo Formio (just as Ireland was part in international law of the United Kingdom) and so it was French law that made law and not the so-called "revolutionary forces". The city of Louvain was the seat of three different universities: the Old University (university founded by the civil powers of Brabant), which became "the Jansenist Rome" with Jansenius, Stockmans, Van Espen, Febronius etc.), then the State University of Leuven, a liberal and free-thinking university, where many professors from the old university taught, and then the new Catholic University of Mechelen, a private Gregorian university, which has no institutional or personal ties to the previous ones. Not any professor from the Old University wanted to teach in the catholic university, but they taught at the State University. Moreover, the judgments of the Belgian Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal since are clear. Several rulings of the Belgian Courts, Cassation and Appeal, forbid the identification of the Catholic University with the Old University: Arresten van het Hof van Cassatie van 26 november 1846: "De Katholieke Universiteit van Leuven kan niet worden beschouwd als de voortzetting van de oude Universiteit van Leuven" "The Catholic University of Leuven can not be considered as continuing the old University of Louvain (General Alphabetical Table and chronological of the Belgian Pasicrisie containing the jurisprudence of the Kingdom from 1814 to 1850, Brussels, 1855, page 585, column 1, paragraph 2. See also: Bulletin of the Laws and Decrees, 1861, p.166.) See also the ruling of the Court of Appeal of 1844: Belgique Judiciaire, 28 July 1844, No. 69, p. 1: "Brussels Court of Appeal Second Chamber The Free University of Louvain does not legally represent the ancient university of this city". As someone wrote : although the archives of the old University of Leuven have been recognized as world heritage by UNESCO, it has kept its history in the taboo sphere. There is no complete history of Leuven University to date mainly due to the fact that this history clashes with the official but largely artificial history story that the Catholic University of Leuven has given of itself to the public, as the continuation of the former University of Leuven (1425-1797). Therfore, the Catholic University of Leuven is not allowed to use the seal of the old university.The former University of Louvain, founded by the civil power of Louvain, was not a "Catholic University", but, like Oxford, Cambridge, etc., an University in a Catholic country --Viator (talk) 19:53, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Viator, you keep repeating the exact same thing with the exact same quotes on every Wikipedia discussion page which has ever included the word Louvain in it. What you may not understand is that we understand the arguments you are bringing forward. Time goes on. The French-speaking Université catholique de Louvain isn't even considered as a private university anymore, controlled under decrees of the French Community. Yet you keep mentioning a sentence that a Belgian court said 175 years ago. The Universities of Louvain have celebrated their 595th birthday in 2000, their 500 years in 1925 and are already busy with the 600 party of 2025. And of course, they celebrated their refounding in 1885. Please, stop pasting the complete quotes everywhere and offer some constructive proposals to reach that consensus. Please stop pasting the entire judgement of 1844 again on this page. By the way, I've only just noticed that this article only starts in 1835, leaving the 1834 university in Mechlin to a seperate page. This is helpful for clarification and I think makes the current introduction (or the one proposed above) relevant and meaningful. Please stop quoting that tribunal thing from 1844 everywhere. PCC7500 (talk) 21:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

text: This is looking very WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Please just stop. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 21:42, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid your intervention might only have encouraged the monomania. I note that now we are being told that the Belgian bishops had no intention to claim any continuity with the past, simply to found an entirely new university, while a few hours ago we were being treated to angry polemics about how their evil scheme was to usurp the name of the previous institution. There is in this a certain incoherence. It's almost as though any stick will do to beat a dog. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 22:17, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, you comments also sounds rather pointy and POV... The Banner talk 22:28, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: My only point and POV is that this kind of axe-grinding editing is bad for content and a colossal waste of time for all involved. Yes, it irritates me, but that's why I'm stepping away from this one. ;) --Andreas Philopater (talk) 23:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Andreas Philopater I must apologize, I was unaware there was a discussion. On the other hand, whether or not anyone has an axe to grind, I think it's important to stay factual. Modern perspectives are certainly pertinent, but we should ensure none of the language is false. Language along the lines of "In 1834, the Catholic church opened a university as a "refounding" of the older institution, though secular society protested what they viewed as an unjustified usurpation of the older institution's legacy." would be ok with me. -Oreo Priest talk 18:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus