Talk:Executions during the Irish Civil War

message: Great Article - really interesting. A member of my own family was one of the 77 killed after the dump aarms order. I tried to research the details surrounding his death but was told by the guys in the military archives dept that the Cosgrave government destroyed most of the files before handing over power to Dev & co. I've heard anecdotally that quite a number of the unofficial killings were the settling of old scores that may of had nothing really to do with politics. That's apparently the case with the death of my grand uncle. 199.43.14.101 15:44, 20 September 2006 (edit)
   
77 killed after the dump arms order?? I thought that was the number officially executed by the Free Staters during the whole war.
:Thank you for the kind words about the article. It makes sense that local enmities played a big part in who got executed during the civil war, as from all I can see, the  selection of those who were executed seems to have been completely arbitrary. One group of anti-treaty fighters could surrender and be sent to a prison camp, another group could face the firing squads. It is interesting that, apart from Childers, Mellows, O'Connor, McKelvey, and Barret, no other captured republican leaders were shot by firing squad. The vast bulk of those shot seem to have been small fry, so to speak. So how they picked them out may well have been down to local grudges, especially after they "decentralised" the executions in January 1923.
Jdorney 19:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The is a book titled "Seventy Seven of Mine Said Ireland"  compiled by Martin O'Dwyer which gives details on all 77. --Domer48'fenian' 14:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 77 killed

message: I greatly appreciate the value of this page. I believe however, that when studying history, that the value of a given document is in a balanced portrayl of the actions and misdeeds of forces acting in the name of both sides. As far as I am aware, this contribution deals only with the actions of soldiers of the National Army. It does not conclusivly deal with the executions carried out by members of the Irregular side. 83.70.129.153 23:16, 17 October 2006 
Also, great pains have been shown to portray a negitive image of the national army. This includes the opinion that many irregular fighters were shot in the legs as regards the Kerry executions. Finally, it is unlikely that a prisoner would be taken from Kenmare jail (a fictional entity- surely you meant the RIC Barracks) to Ballyseedee woods, a good distance even my modern standards. The man refered to is Seamus Taylor. This detail is not accurate. 83.70.129.153 23:16, 17 October 2006 
::The Irish civil war is always a controversial topic and executions in it are the most emotional aspect, even today. However, to deal with the criticism; firstly this page does indeed detail the anti-treaty side's killings of TDs, senators and their families. Lynch also issued orders to kill hostile judges and newspaper editors, this is also mentioned (though his men did not carry out these orders for whatever reason). Also included here is Bob Lambert's vindictive killing of four National Army soldiers in Wexford in March 1923. The only other killing of prisoners on the anti-treaty side that I have come across is the murder of Tom "Scarteen" O'Connor and his brother after the taking of Kenmare in September 1922. Doubtless there are more examples, but I do not have information about them. If you do please add it to the article.
::Re the killings at Cahirciveen, A Lieutenant MacCarthy of the National Army wrote of it, "There was no attempt at escape as the prisoners were shot first and then put over a mine" (Michael Hopkinson, Green against Green, page 241). Re Seamus Taylor, I can't find right now where I got that information from (yes, I  should have referenced it at the time) but yes it seems more likely he was taken from teh barracks at Tralee than the RIC station at Kenmare.
::Jdorney 23:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: negitive image

message: "Whereas Collins had hoped for a speedy reconciliation of the warring Irish nationalist factions, after his death the Free State government, led by W. T. Cosgrave, Richard Mulcahy and Kevin O'Higgins, took the position that the anti-Treaty IRA were conducting an unlawful rebellion against the legitimate Irish government and should be treated as criminals rather than as combatants." 
After August 1922? I don't think so. The "pact" had kept a sort of peace up to the election in June which led to the outbreak of open war on 28 June, but the government line for months had been that anyone opposing them in arms was a criminal.86.42.227.176 (talk) 20:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable? 

message: Why do we compare 77 executions with the 14 British executions in 1919-21? Shouldn't we compare the 77 with the dozens of IRA executions during the War of Independence? After all, the Prov Govt policy from late 1922 was thought "workable" because the large number of IRA executions had "worked", while the 14 British executions obviously had not.Red Hurley (talk) 14:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Just thinking...

message: ::No PSA on the main list I found here.Red Hurley (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That says something about our historians, doesn't it? More exactly, it is in some of the secondary literature, but is not where it should be in other secondary literature. This is relevant to the legality of the legislation itself. You can take 2 views on that - what was conveniently described as the PSA was an illegal / unlawful process, OR it was so badly needed that the 3rd Dail exercised its sovereign independent right to ignore the usual procedures. Given the government control over the press in late 1922, obviously no commentator wanted to make that point, and they all gave it a veneer of respectability by calling it an Act, and this was taken up by historians without checking. Press support for the provisional govt was naturally amplified after the anti-treaty gang led by Rory O'Connor destroyed the Freeman's Journal presses earlier in 1922, when it had the effrontery to ask and publish some awkward questions. I'll look at DM - not my favourite subject.Red Hurley (talk) 13:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Again, it boils down to which side you were on. The "irregulars" had very little support, except in Munster, and were wrecking the economy. The irregulars felt that dozens of ad-hoc executions since 1919 were legal, so they couldn't logically object to the 3rd Dáil passing a resolution allowing executions. To object would be to rely on English-law concepts of law and legislation that they had emphatically rejected, so they didn't remark on the legality, not even their hagiographer Dorothy McArdle. Why did she ignore it? Perhaps also because Dev had tolerated the IRA in 1932-36, but there was a chill by 1937 when her book was published. Within 3 years Dev himself was executing IRA activists for rather less than his fighters were doing in 1922-23. The prov government had let things slide and then argued for its resolution as fast as possible, dressing it up as an Act in the papers, tying in the other aspects as well (church/press). An Act allowing executions would have been passed by the 3rd Dáil, it would just have taken months longer to go through all its stages. So it seems to me, now, but my opinion is WP:OR and so it can't go in the article.Red Hurley (talk) 09:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

text: From January to September 1922 the prov govt was not legally accountable to any parliament (see this). It was a power struggle, and both sides were executing people. The govt side had to make it appear legal, and they were in a hurry, that's all. Yes, their publicists over-emphasised the legality, but that's what publicists are paid to do.Red Hurley (talk) 09:16, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the Jan 1923 resolution of the extended army council order, with a very interesting debate on the civil war at that time. No mention in there of the September 1922 resolution as an Act or a Bill.Red Hurley (talk) 11:40, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Public Safety Act 1922 / where

message: It's annoying when an anonymous editor scraps the name of the order and says that "the Act was strengthened". There was no Act (see above) but a Dåil resolution that preceded the signing of the order itself. Army deserters were a small part of it, so I am re-editing it.Red Hurley (talk) 08:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Where it says "Those executed were tried by court-martial in a military court and had to be found guilty only of bearing arms against the State." - the point of the 1923 order was that you could now be executed for having a map of army positions or a note for a prisoner about an escape, or a timetable of sentry duty, etc., not just for "being armed".Red Hurley (talk) 08:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Army Council General Order 1923

message: The article states that seven men from Kildare were executed in Dublin. They were actually executed in the Curragh Camp, Co. Kildare. For some reason they are often referred to as being executed in Dublin, any objection to correcting the article?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.114.204 (talk) 12:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the information. If you could also add the link as a footnote, that would be great. Jdorney (talk) 16:05, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Error, often repeated. 

message: Hello? So, the Free State take out four innocent Irishmen from prison, a prison they were in when Seán Hales was killed, and execute them in retaliation for his murder. And this, according to this article, was "arguably" unlawful? "Arguably"? Incredible. Go on, give us the argument for how it could possibly be "lawful"? 79.97.64.240 (talk) 20:34, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Or - give us the argument for how it could possibly be unlawful? This was a civil war pal. We can all play at armchair lawyers after the event.78.17.60.231 (talk) 16:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: "This was *arguably* an unlawful act"

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message: Why do the Tuam executions have their own section? Should we also have a paragraph on, say, the Dundalk executions in January 1923 (four men), or the Curragh executions in December 1922? (Seven men) or the Leixlip flying column members executed at Portobello, Dublin January 1923 (six men). And so on.
I really don't see why the article has so much detail on just one case, particularly as all the names are, or are being, included in last at the bottom of the page. Particularly unnecessary is the detail of possessing weapons, ammunition etc 'without the proper authority' as this was the charge for almost all the death sentences carried out by the Free State in the Civil War. Jdorney (talk) 15:26, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Admittedly the original 'Tuam section' comprised an over much of repetitive detail which needed to be whittled down, however the complete deletion of this otherwise well sourced case was hardly further some. My primary reason for re-inclusion is its sourced links, the article itself relying largely on Hopkinson as a primary source. Apart from the Drumboe case the article lacks similar secondary sources, listing merely 38 out of 77 names. Osioni (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tuam Executions 

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message: and it was widely speculated that seven low-ranking Republicans were shot before Childers so that it would not look as if he had been singled out to be executed.[19]
How widely speculated? In Delhi and Puerto Banus? "Widely speculated by his friends" would be much better, if it could be proved. 
Also all the regrets about the wedding and the gift of a pistol were for the press. There were no such regrets, just more speculation by journalists that became "history".78.18.215.120 (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: "Widely Speculated"