Talk:Volga Germans

message: This is barely English, poorly organized, and I have a bad feeling about it. It's reminiscent of User:H.J.. Vicki Rosenzweig 21:50 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:Yes, it could be better written, but from the history, people from 2 different IP addresses (clearly not from the same subnet) editted it before I touched it. (And for one of them, English not her/his first language.) And from my knowledge of Russian history, it appears to be accurate so far -- it's clearly a stub.
:If you'd like, Vicki, I'll add it to my watch list & help it along. I'm willing to take the risk that this won't become another point of bitterness here on WikiP. -- llywrch 03:45 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The Article Germans from Russia which is about an American ethnic group has been redirected here, truncated and merged. I think it should go back to being an independent article. The story of the Volga Germans, is also very interesting and can be substantially expanded, but is really a different story as the division between the two groups generally occured before the Revolution. The only contact most Americans of German-Russian heritage ever had was an occasional pitiful letter from distant relatives. Fred Bauder 15:59, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)
: I second that. Let's start from the separation within the current article first. Mikkalai 16:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal observation only, but according to my dad (first generation German-Russian American), Lawrence Welk is indeed a German Russian (grew up in the same area in ND as my dad and is a distant cousin, apparently) and so is Tom Daschle. I'm sure this can be found out with a quick Google--I'm too lazy to do it right now. Katr67 22:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: There was information pasted into the article directly from this source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3345066&dopt=Abstract
It is possible it might fit into the article if it were properly paraphrased and wikified. Katr67 21:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Health Consequences" 

message: This may be another form of the issue raised by FranklySpeaking, but I do not think that the redirect of Germans from Russia to this article properly belongs here. The Germans who settled in the Beresan (near Odessa) certainly are not Volga Germans. Agent 86 03:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Germans from Russia and Volga Germans should stay separate articles. The Russian Mennonites for example are something like Germans from Russia, but only about 1 percent of them used to live in the Volga area.--Wikipeeta (talk) 23:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper redirect of [[Germans from Russia]]? 

message: In Argentina, Volga Germans had settled in colonies, in some specific provinces, wich are mentioned in Spanish version. Therefore, it is not so difficult to identify who is of Volga German descent. Here there are some of them (it's not a complete list):
Andrés Klipphan (journalist), Jorge Gottau (creator of "Colecta Más por Menos", bishop of Añatuya), Gabriel Heinze (soccer player, currently in Manchester United), Enrique Fischer (better known as Pipo Pescador, houmorist, actor), Héctor Omar Hoffmann (better known as Sergio Denis, singer, actor), Raúl Daniel Schmidt (soccer player, Club Olimpo), Claudio Fernando Graf (soccer player, Club Atlético Lanús), Enrique Rau (bishop, well known for his humanitarian labour), Naty Hollmann (also known as Naty Petrosino, elected "International Woman of the Year"- 2006- by the Autonomous Region of Valle d'Aosta in Northern Italy), Carlos Kaspar (actor), Alejandro Guinder (lawyer, founder of "Festival del Folklore de Cosquín"), Juan Eduardo Esnáider (soccer player), Cristian Breitenstein (mayor of Bahía Blanca), Jorge Novak (founder of "Movimiento Ecuménico por los Derechos Humanos"), Víctor "Vity" Zwenger (soccer player), Javier Herrlein (musician, former member of group Catupecu Machu), Mauro Gerk (soccer player), Jorge Mayer (bishop of Bahía Blanca), Romina Mohr (journalist, Canal 9).--Chipppy 03:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some Argentines of Volga German descent

message: The Germans in Bessarabia and in Odessa Oblast were not Volga Germans and it is hard to see how information about them belongs in an article with this title. Is there an article Black Sea Germans? User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger with [[Germans from Russia]]

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011 
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thread_title: File:VictoriaKanasaVolgaGermanStatue.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: It may be true that there were Volga Germans who resettled in the Jefferson Park neighborhood of Chicago, but I see no reason for why the photograph of the current Copernicus Cultural and Civic Center be shown in this article. The building was originally constructed as a movie theatre in 1930 by an American firm. It later was turned into the Copernicus Center, which is in honor of the Polish community that has a very large influence and presence in the Jefferson Park neighborhood. 
The building has absolutely nothing to do with Germans, whether they were from Volga or anywhere else, and including it without an explanation in this article is misleading. If someone was to select a photograph to represent the Jefferson Park neighborhood, I would suggest choosing one of the Jefferson Park Branch of the Chicago Public Library, or of the actual Jefferson Park. Although the Copernicus Center is a prominent landmark in Chicago, it just simply has nothing to do with the Volga Germans, and should be removed from this article, in my opinion. --Saukkomies talk  02:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo of Gateway Theatre/Copernicus Center is irrelevant

message: Deutsch speaking migrants were not settled in Russia but in territories conquered by Russian imperialism, i.e. that didn't have any native Russian population or Ukrainians. Thereby, they were the first to urbanize and develop territories, something that is not criticized when done by Anglos, and Zionist even have birthrights in Western culture. They were used by Russians to conquer Muslim territories in the grasslands of southeast Siberia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.149.128.119 (talk) 18:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  text misleading inconclusive and philosoviet 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 11 external links on Volga Germans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: === Vandal editions by user Mellk ===
There is no doubt that it was a genocide what was done against Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia (also known as Russia Germans). And it is a gross and outrageous violation of Wikipedia rules that all those references continue to be vandalized by the Russian user Mellk (see, for example, here and here), who already has a history of vandalizing references and creating disputes on Wikipedia after editing many articles with an ideological bias in favor of the crimes carried out by Russia.
User Mellk has been vandalizing all the references in this article, but also in Russia Germans (see, for example, here), Saratov (look how he removes the word "genocide", which is abundantly sourced, under the false accusation that such information would be an "unsourced commentary" here, then he continues "pruning" with the conscious objective of hiding the sourced information here, the Russian government forbids talk about genocide, but he hides that information against WP:COMMONSENSE here, the Russian user is not satisfied and finally removes all references in that article as well, which of course is vandalism, here) and others, in which he simply removes all the information and references that he doesn't like.
Therefore, the phenomenon of this vandalism must be treated as a whole, since it is being carried out by the same user and in more than one article that addresses the same dark chapter in history.
=== Genocide and the application of logical reasoning ===
To say that precisely the version of scholars and experts in the history of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia is not reliable (as said user writes every time he vandalizes the references), would be like saying that to learn about the genocide of Jews you should not consult any source provided by the Jewish community, but only read the version that the Nazis admit.
It is precisely the organizations that represent the victims that have an interest in denouncing what has been done to them, while the perpetrators have an interest in hiding it. This is completely obvious and logical.
In any case, for a person to join this interest in covering up such a crime, the only thing it reveals is their ideological affinity. And also their moral quality.
Applying the criteria of the Russian user Mellk, who says that the information and testimonies provided by the organizations that gather the victims and relatives of victims of genocides is not reliable, for example, we should say that a victim of a robbery cannot report the crime to the police, since it is the thief himself who should determine if he stole or not. As you can see, this reveals a deeply cynical way of seeing reality... Or as cynical as it is interested. In any case, of course, it is the most unethical thing imaginable.
To say that ethnic Germans were decimated, deported, enslaved, that they were forbidden to speak their own language, that they were forbidden to be educated in their own language, that many had to emigrate en masse to save themselves and that so many others were killed, that today the survivors and their descendants live scattered all over the world as a result of that, but that that is not genocide, it is as absurd as describing a robbery avoiding saying the word "robbery"... For example, someone admits that a man entered someone else's home, that he took money that did not belong to him, that he did so by threatening the resident family with a firearm, but: he refuses to use the word "robbery"... Completely absurd, right? Or interested and cynical...
The genocide of Germans from Russia has been very well documented by experts from various countries who call it for what it was: a genocide.
Therefore, it is completely false to say that there is a "debate" about that term, just as the Russian user says in his vandal editions. 
All the experts on the subject call it genocide, and even many books about the genocide of Germans from Russia have been written. The only one that does not call it genocide is Russia, something that is not surprising, since in the same way, Russia goes to the extreme of denying absolutely all the genocides that it carried out. But denying all these genocides seems to be one more way of provoking the victims, of re-victimizing them, of showing that an attitude can never be unabashed enough, that someone can always redouble the bet and be even more evil.
=== References to the genocide of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia===
It is also false to imply that the only book that has been written on the genocide of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia is Kaiser, D. Philipp (2014). Moscow's Final Solution: The Genocide of the German-Russian Volga Colonies. ISBN 9780615157801, as implied by the Russian user Mellk, who does not mention the rest of the references that he vandalized.
Many other books and other studies have been published calling the genocide of Germans from Russia for what it was: a genocide. For example: 
Sinner, Samuel D. (2000). The Open Wound: The deportation of West German Ethnic Minorities in Russia & the Soviet Union, 1915-1949 - And Beyond. ISBN 1891193082.
Also: Maier Schwerdt, Héctor (2009). Deportación a Siberia: el genocidio de los alemanes del Volga; memoria de la supresión de la República Germana del Volga en Rusia y de la deportación a Siberia de todos sus habitantes, el 28 de agosto de 1941. ISBN 9789870565536.
Also: Conquest, Robert (1974). Stalins Völkermord: Wolgadeutsche, Krimtataren, Kaukasier. ISBN 3203504855
The Journal of Genocide Research also considers the genocide of the Germans in Russia for what it was: a genocide. Examples: 
Pohl, J. Otto (1 June 2000). Stalin's genocide against the "Repressed Peoples. Journal of Genocide Research. 2 (2): 267–293. doi:10.1080/713677598
Eric J. Schmaltz and Samuel D. Sinner. 'You Will Die under Ruins and Snow': The Soviet Repression of Russian Germans as a Case Study of Successful Genocide, Journal of Genocide Research (2002), 4 (3), pp. 327-356.
On the other hand, the website volgagermans.org, initially created in 2009 by Concordia University in Portland, Oregon, also calls the genocide of Germans from Russia for what it was: a genocide. See: https://www.volgagermans.org/history/genocide
In Argentina, each town also remembers the genocide of Germans from Russia, even with the presence of its mayor (See, for example, Act for the 80th anniversary of the deportation and extermination of Germans in Siberia and other regions of the USSR). It is totally absurd that the Russian user wants to make all this look like an international whim.
As you can see, the reason why absolutely all experts in the history of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia agree that what was done to Germans from Russia was genocide leaves no room for doubt: because it was indeed genocide.
The United Nations is very clear on this. In fact, the definition of genocide given by the United Nations Genocide Convention is practically a description of what was done to the Volga Germans and the Germans from the rest of Russia:
"acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly".
=== Genocide of Germans started long before WWII ===
While it is true that the genocide carried out against Germans from Russia reached its peak in 1941 (and that this is a very representative date of hatred since it even implied the suppression of the autonomous republic of the Volga Germans), it is false that this genocide began with World War II or the invasion of Russia, and that falsehood is denounced by history experts.
On the contrary, later, WWII was used as a pretext that tried to justify all these genocidal policies that destroyed an ethnic group, because Russia was afraid of being judged.
In fact, policies aimed at destroying this ethnic group and even deportations of Germans began long before World War II:
Korn, Robert. Ungesühntes Verbrechen.
Kaiser, D. Philipp (2014). Moscow's Final Solution: The Genocide of the German-Russian Volga Colonies.
Therefore, the vandal edition of the Russian user Mellk, who tries to show that the genocidal policies against the Germans in Russia began with WWII, is completely false.
It is enough to see that at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, many Germans from Russia had to emigrate to Canada, the United States, Argentina and Brazil as a direct consequence of the aggressive policy of Russification imposed by the government, in addition to the killings, confiscations and even deportations. However, the vandal edition of said user suppresses those reasons, showing that the mass emigration of Germans from the Volga to the Americas would have been due to a simple "whim". This is a completely intentional concealment of history. 
Of course, all those persecutions and killings worsened in the pre-revolution stage and of course also in the post-revolution stage.
=== Other vandal editions by user Mellk ===
Among other vandalized information, the Russian user insists on editing that Americans and Argentines of Volga German descent are Volga Germans themselves, which is obviously false.
That can be seen in the "Notable people of Volga German descent" section, which he repeatedly changes to "Notable Volga Germans", even though the names listed there have clear descriptions in which it can be seen that most of those people have other citizenships. In fact, of the 28 personalities listed there, only 2 were born in the Volga region. That is yet another vandalism that clearly shows user Mellk's repeated editions to be arbitrary and completely without foundation.
Regards.--Creamb (talk) 12:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please familiarize yourself with WP policies first. Vandalism has a specific meaning and in this case this is a personal attack. I am not going to bother reading all of the walls of text but an IP editor recently added sources (actual scholarly sources rather than self-published books) about a debate on the label so your claim that  is bullshit, sorry. Mellk (talk) 12:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Also, the content I removed was all what you yourself added. For example in this edit on Saratov you add a whole paragraph just adding your own commentary without any references. This is basic. Mellk (talk) 12:20, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Well considering you immediately attack me by falsely accusing me of having  and repeatedly accusing me of vandalism, as well as making assumptions about my background, why should I bother to engage with you? You did not bother with WP:AGF and went straight to personal attacks. Now you say I am a . I have already alerted you about WP:CTOPICS so be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot. Mellk (talk) 17:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: And another editor who started the discussion on this said the same thing. So unless you also want to call them a . Mellk (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Also the mentions of genocide are still there, your unreliable self-published sources (PLEASE just read WP:SPS) were removed and your edits do not follow WP:NPOV. Mellk (talk) 17:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide and repeatedly vandalized references by Russian user 

message: Among other vandalized information, the Russian user insists on editing that Americans and Argentines of Volga German descent are Volga Germans themselves, which is obviously false.
That can be seen in the "Notable people of Volga German descent" section, which he repeatedly changes to "Notable Volga Germans", even though the names listed there have clear descriptions in which it can be seen that most of those people have other citizenships. In fact, of the 28 personalities listed there, only 2 were born in the Volga region. That is yet another vandalism that clearly shows user Mellk's repeated editions to be arbitrary and completely without foundation.
Regards.--Creamb (talk) 12:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please familiarize yourself with WP policies first. Vandalism has a specific meaning and in this case this is a personal attack. I am not going to bother reading all of the walls of text but an IP editor recently added sources (actual scholarly sources rather than self-published books) about a debate on the label so your claim that  is bullshit, sorry. Mellk (talk) 12:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Also, the content I removed was all what you yourself added. For example in this edit on Saratov you add a whole paragraph just adding your own commentary without any references. This is basic. Mellk (talk) 12:20, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Well considering you immediately attack me by falsely accusing me of having  and repeatedly accusing me of vandalism, as well as making assumptions about my background, why should I bother to engage with you? You did not bother with WP:AGF and went straight to personal attacks. Now you say I am a . I have already alerted you about WP:CTOPICS so be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot. Mellk (talk) 17:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: And another editor who started the discussion on this said the same thing. So unless you also want to call them a . Mellk (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

text: Also the mentions of genocide are still there, your unreliable self-published sources (PLEASE just read WP:SPS) were removed and your edits do not follow WP:NPOV. Mellk (talk) 17:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other vandal editions by user Mellk 

message: Maria Theresa wasn't Empress of Austria and Hungary.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.154.225 (talk) 10:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maria Theresa 

message: What is the intent of this section? Pamela Anderson was removed for having only one Volga German grandparent in reliable sources, but it looks like others listed are also only of partial Volga German descent. Should this list be pruned? The mismatch may be due to the section title change by Mellk. 166.198.252.18 (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Volga Germans list