Talk:Emancipation (disambiguation)

message: I put a {citation required} on the "Spiritual" section entry, although it isn't exactly the right tag. A disambiguation page should have short entries leading to articles, not a mini-essay like this, but offhand I couldn't find an appropriate article to direct readers too.  Can anyone think of where "spiritual emancipation" should refer to and replace the text with a link, please? - David Oberst 07:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

message: I've reverted the Emancipation disambiguation page once again.  First, a disambiguation page isn't the place for mini-essays (see MOS:DAB).  More importantly, the use of "emancipation" in your text seems to be somewhat unique - I'm not aware that it is standard usage to consider citizens of countries with proportional representation systems more "emancipated" than those without, for example.  Unless you can provide some standard citations of this usage, I suspect that you have run afoul of Wikipedia's "no original research" requirements (see WP:NOR).  Also (and my apologies if English is not your first language), but some of your wording ("can start to participate as they are without adjusting to the one or two parties in control", or "being able to be as one is") is both difficult to understand, and reinforces the impression that one is reading the writer's personal views, not an encyclopedia article.
Finally, it is considered impolite to cry "censorship" (as you have in both your revert summaries) to simple disagreements over article content.  Regards - David Oberst 23:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Emanicipation does not in mainstream usage include PR, there are many reasons why that is the case and why User:FrederickS' arguments are faulty.  I had started to write these down, and then I realised that it is pointless.  Wikipedia is not a forum for discussing political viewpoints.  Frederick is making the mistake of trying to explain why emanicipation should include PR, this is the wrong place for that.  Argue it in a reputable newspaper and have them publish it, then we can talk about changing this redirect page.  Until then, it's better to concentrate on building an Encyclopedia than it is to try and push particular POVs.  CaptainJ (t | c | e) 01:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Offhand, I see no rationale for including the PR material.  If the advocate for such material can provide references that demonstrate a wide usage of "emancipation" to describe PR, then I and others can take a look at it. —  Stevie is the man!  Talk | Work 01:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proportional Representation 

message: [moved into proper chronological order by User:Oberst]
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On Political Emancipation [] point 2.6
On Political Emancipation [] named in the same breath.
On Political Emancipation []
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On Political Emancipation []
Dear fellow wikipedians,
In case you missed the entrees I provided yesterday, here they are once more. They all provide a clear use of the combination Political & Emancipation. When Googling [|both words quoted together] 62,200 entrees appear. That should suffice to place that combination on the map for good. And they are not all about suffragettes. Among other political forms of emancipation, Proportional Representation can be placed in this context, and some of the entrees indeed deliver evidence for that context.
Since my background is different from yours, I want to let you in on my surprise when I learned that the word emancipation was used in the context of the abolishment of slavery. I was not familiar with the use of the word emancipation in such a context, and I had to reason why one would use the word in such a context. To help you understand my amazement about the word use I have to pull you back to the original meaning of the word. Here is Webster's information: [1615-1625; < L emancipatus (ptp. of emancipare) freed from control, equiv. to e- E- + man(us) hand + -cip (comb. form of capere) to seize + atus - ATE]. As you can see, there is already a conflict in this explanation itself in that one explanation is 'release,' while the words on which it is built are 'hand' and 'to seize.' To seize in one's hand and to be released may end up being one and the same result, but the action belongs to two different sides. To release is done by the master, to take control is done by a person him- or herself. I have the feeling we are battling this word between the real meaning (to take in one's own hand) and the colloquial version you are more familiar with (from the perspective of the boss). Please note that the translation of the root is 'to seize' and not 'to cease.' In other dictionaries I found that part translated into 'to take.'
For me, to help understand why the word emancipation was used in the context of the abolishment of slavery, I had to make two steps. The first step was that it was the title of a proclamation, the second step was that from that moment on former slaves could now start to emancipate themselves (take matters in their own hands). Only then did the combination of the word emancipation with the abolishment of slavery make sense. You will have to apologize me for being European, for I was not confronted much with the results of slavery; Europeans mainly benefited from it, and slavery was something done far away from home (at least in 'modern' times). As such, I was not aware of the word emancipation in the context of slavery. I only used it in the original version: to take control oneself. When women started wearing pants, it was not because they were now released from the restrictions of having to wear dresses, it was because they themselves decided what they should wear. Since they decided that for themselves one can call that emancipation. When women received the right to vote, exercising that right is the actual emancipation. In a political context, staying home and not vote does not make an emancipated women, because emancipation requires participation (indeed, the translation of this word also contains the -cip (to take) aspect. To take part.
The dictionary leaves the actual meaning hanging between what you are familiar with (to release) and what I am familiar with (to take in one's own hand). Even when I consider my explanation to be more accurate (since the power exists on the side of the person who is emancipated), I have no problem when others consider their version to be more accurate. The truth can be known when viewed from many directions.
I grew up with the word emancipation being placed in a socio-political context. The many entrees I provided show-case that socio-political context. The combination between proportional representation and the level of emancipation is not made up by me: it existed already. It is not a novel use of words. 
As a separate argument, since I am not an original English speaker (though I speak five languages), a good number of the entrees found in Google show an internet destination outside of the English language (Russian, for instance), and while I found Proportional Representation in connection with political emancipation with British or Anglo-American entrees as well, in this globalizing world, and with the use of English as a global language, familiarities that may be considered colloquial should all be accepted. I cannot blame you for not understanding the emancipatory effect of proportional representation if you have never experienced it. In Europe, Britain is the only nation that is still a two party nation - the awareness is only slowly growing. Nevertheless, the European elections taking place in Britain are now proportional, the parliaments of Scotland and Wales are proportional. Other former British colonies have changed their system as well, like New Zealand, in 1996. Australia has implemented some changes of proportional nature (though not extensive). As described earlier, five Canadian Provinces are talking about it. Only after implementation will you experience what you have been missing. In this world today, a disproportional number of nations with district elections have British roots.
Sorry, guys, political emancipation and proportional representation are two hands on one belly. I am reverting the wiki-page once more with two reasons on my side:
* The Dictionary
* The many entrees I found for Political Emancipation, with Proportional Representation rightfully one of the subject matters indicating emancipation.
Please, argue your side before erasing the entree again. I am listening, but the argument that you are not familiar with the use of this term in this context appears to belong to you. What do you have, other than your familiarity of the word, with which I have no problem?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by FredrickS (talk • contribs) 2006-06-12 16:25:25
:You need to provide a reliable source that emancipation means those things you say. A new argument by you is not allowed in Wikpedia. See Wikipedia:No original research.Ultramarine 17:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: User:FredrickS whenever I see long arguments like yours on Wikipedia, I switch off.  I checked out the first couple of you references and they didn't even mention Proportional representation (to say nothing about their quality).  please provide two or three good references from reputable news outlets or peer reviewed journals that explicitly say proportional representation is a form of emanicipation.  They should not need any further explanation from you.  If they do, then the references aren't explicit enough.  CaptainJ (t | c | e) 19:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly.  Also, I am unsure of the use of emancipation in relation to suffragette.  I don't think a suffragette is a form of emancipation. —  Stevie is the man!  Talk | Work 20:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Followup by FredrickS