Talk:Szabla

message: There are nice pics (like this) at Polish wiki version of this article, but my melee-weapnons military terminology is not good for theri translation :( Help needed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Captions to translate

message: Shouldnt etymology ultimatelly derive from the Hungarian szablya? (pronounced /sabja/) After all, Hungarian szablya can easily be derrived from Hungarian szab-;szabni (to cut). The same is listed on the article saber Druworos 15:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that szabla came from the Balkans, it is likely - but a reference would be nice.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is plainly stated in the article saber, in the first few lines. Though I have no idea where they got *their* references. Druworos 16:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: I am quite puzzled by the image. This is a French Navy officer sabre of the beginning of the 19th Century. It is plainly said on the description of the image, and I really wonder how one could say things like "Late 17th century szabla". I am removing the image. Rama 11:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: In the History section, I see some dubious speculation in the form "Although by early 16th century such weapons were used both in Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldavia-Wallachia and Hungary, in most cases these were but examples of captured weapons issued to peasants and serfs in case of a dire need. As such, they were considered plebeian weapons unworthy of the nobility. The higher classes and the knights at that time still preferred straight-bladed swords, much like their western European counterparts."
Take a look at the relatively contemporary painting Battle of Orsza.  The painting is from the 16th century and depicts early Polish hussars.  Note how all hussars carry curved swords (as well as lances and in some cases bows).  Muscovite cavalry is also using curved swords.  This would contradict "in most cases these were but examples of captured weapons."  Entire class of soldiers (the hussars) was equipped with sabres, by 1514.  There is also this, an example of a 9th-10th century Kievan Rus sabre ("Heribert Seitz, in the book Blankwafeen volume I pages 183-186, notifies that the origin of the sword is South Russia."). Please find better sources and rewrite the history section, since it's very misleading and appears to be based on erroneous speculation.
174.117.103.189 (talk) 08:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Early use of the sabre in Eastern Europe

message: It turns out next to nothing here is referenced, and the content we do have is very poor and mostly based on misunderstandings. 
It is hard to even merge an article if it has no verifiable content. 
So I suggest we base this on the summary of Zablocki (1989) posted here which is at least some information. 
The distinctions of types made by Zablocki are:
*The Polish military sabre with a "closed hilt", known also as the "hussar's sabre"
*The Polish military sabre with an "anatomic" grip in the form of an eagle head, known also as a combat karabela
*The Polish military sabre with cross-like quillons and almond-like pommel, known also as the Hungarian type
So three subtypes sufficient for a list of types of the early modern sabre in Poland in the main sabre article. 
I don't see that we have much more to go on at the moment. 
--dab (𒁳) 12:06, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice job finding a reliable English source, I will note it is based on (a summary of?) a Polish book that is 350 pages long (). I have no objections to moving any unreferenced content here, and rewriting this as a stub. I will see if I can help improve it when I have access to the Polish book in the summer. PS. I was able to obtain a PDF of the even better 'dzieje szabli w polsce' book. Time permitting, I may be able to help more, but I will wait for when you are done with your cuts/version. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Zablocki (1989)

message: From the article: "An example that bears a considerable resemblance is the famous British 1796 pattern Light Cavalry Sabre which was designed by Captain John Gaspard le Marchant after his visits "East" to Central and Eastern Europe and research into these and other nations' cavalry tactics and weapons. Poland had ceased to exist as a separate nation by this time but their other co-nation from previous centuries, Hungary, was still an existing nation, and as this was the source of all things "Hussar", it was the Polish-Hungarian szable of 150 years earlier rather than the oft quoted Indian tulwar that were the main source of inspiration for the first "mainly cutting" sabre in the British Army."
There are a number of inaccuracies in this section. One thing is correct, the 1796 LC sabre does resemble earlier Polish and Hungarian sabres in its blade shape, but a causal connection has not been verified. Le Marchant never went to eastern Europe, he was in Belgium (then the Austrian Netherlands) on campaign against the French. When he was there, he examined the swords of the Austro-Hungarian army. He definitely examined the sword patterns then in use by the Austrian troops, but it is extremely unlikely that he would have seen swords dating from a century or more earlier. So while some earlier Hungarian and Polish sabres did have the characteristic expansion of the blade width just before the tip seen in the 1796 LC sabre, contemporary Austro-Hungarian hussar sabres definitely did not. However, some contemporary tulwars did have this feature, and the British army had far more contact with India than it had with any part of eastern Europe. The tulwar connection does have some limited scholarly mention, but the 17th century Polish-Hungrian hypothesis does not. Urselius (talk) 15:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Le Marchant