Talk:Federalist Party

message: The overview reads:
: .... one of the party's most influential members was John Marshall, who strengthened the powers of the judiciary while Chief Justice of the United States. Although Marshall never joined the party...
He was either one of the parties most influential members or he never joined the party but he can't be both. I suspect I know what you are trying to say but you have to find a better way to say it. In fact I think I understand what you are trying to say with enough certainty to make the edit myself. Undo me if I have made a mistake. 
Also just BTW, who the hell is John Jay? Please don't tell me his favorite maxim until you have told me who he is. Ryan Albrey (talk) 07:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Joining the party" is an anachronism in 1801. I don't think the Federalists had any formal structure at all; the DRs had an occasional non-binding caucus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Marshall a member or not? Make up your mind. 

message: One of the party ideologies is listed as classical conservatism. I don't think that's accurate; the Democratic-Republican party represented a more libertarian, states' rights platform, whereas the Federalist party was about a strong central government and economic protectionism, a bit more in line with American liberalism. -- LightSpectra (talk) 17:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a quotation from Diggins, making it clear that this was not a European conservatism: In terms of "classical conservatism", the Federalists had no truck with European-style aristocracy, monarchy, or established religion.  Historian John P. Diggins says that: :Thanks to the framers, American conservatism began on a genuinely lofty plane. James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Marshall, John Jay, James Wilson,, and, above all, John Adams aspired to create a republic in which the values so precious to conservatives  might flourish: harmony, stability, virtue, reverence, veneration, loyalty, self-discipline, and moderation. This was classical conservatism in its most authentic expression. Rjensen (talk) 00:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classical Conservatism? 

message: Both the preceding and succeeding parties are doubtful. The preceding party was listed as that figment, the Pro-Administration Party. The succeeding party was the National Republicans; while the two parties shared some philosophy and personnel, it seems perverse to call a branch of the Democratic Republicans the successor to the Federalists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genealogy 

message: "the Federalists, notably Hamilton, were distrustful of the governed,the Republicans, the governed."  The intent of the sentence is unclear; could someone who knows what is trying to be said clarify this?  Skyemoor (talk) 14:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Governed 

message: The article states:
"George Washington is believed to have been broadly sympathetic to the Federalist program, he remained an independent his entire term."
While literally correct, it implies that there is some doubt or ambiguity re: Washington's support of the Federalist program. In fact there is no such doubt or ambiguity.
His support of Hamilton's views on assumption and credit, the Bank of the United States, as well as the Jay Treaty and his suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion are sufficient to remove any doubt re: his sympathy for the Federalist program.
I have therefore replaced "is believed to have been" with "was".
jbarntt 16:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington 

message: The article contains this in the named section:
"The Federalists were dominated by conservative businessmen and merchants..."
This is correct, in that historians do consider the Federalists to have been conservatives, and the Democratic-Republicans to have been liberals. I think this is misleading to a contemporary reader however. To a modern reader, each of these parties have some aspects of both modern liberalism and conservatism, enough to make the use of the words "conservative" and "liberal" regarding them misleading.
I have therefore edited out the word "conservative" in the above sentence.
jbarntt 18:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interpretations 

message: The article contains the following statement:
"James Madison, Hamilton's ally in the fight to ratify the United States Constitution, dropped his nationalism in response to demands in his Virginia district and joined with Jefferson in opposing Hamilton's program."
Madison's apparent change of view is a long standing matter of historical debate. If he did so, and because of constituent pressure, a good citation to the matter is required. It is also dubious that Madison joined Jefferson in opposing Hamilton. As I recollect, the issue of credit and assumption was already before congress when Jefferson returned from France, (diplomatic post), to assume the role of Sec. of State, and that Congressman Madison was already opposed to the plan. 
I haven't edited this part of the article, because I am relying on memory. Nonetheless, it is problematical.
jbarntt 20:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed " dropped his nationalism in response to demands in his Virginia district and" from the sentence in question.  Dropping his nationalism, although I know what was intended, sounds too harsh without clarification.  As far as Madison acting because of "constituent pressure", this suggests a lack of principle on Madison's part that really should not be in the article without a source (as well as further clarification. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Rise of the Federalist Party 

message: I asked this in the prior (now archived) discussion, and as far as I can see it still applies (has not been changed).  Additionally curious (off topic) this page seems to have a ton more vandalism than any other page I have browsed the history of, anyone else notice? Can message me a reply. Thanks folks. --gobears87 (talk) 22:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Question: Regarding the section entitled "Effects of foreign affairs" - Is it just me or is the language (specifically use of term "The Republicans") confusing, or perhaps just plain wrong? I am a historian using Wikipedia only for quick reference and reminders, but I am aware that the term used would lead most average readers to believe it means the modern "Republican" party, whereas that group didn't come into existence until the mid-1800s. At first I thought it might refer to the French "Republicans", but apparently not (some were Francophiles, it claims). If it is meant to refer to the "Democratic-Republicans" it should say so, and not lazily abbreviate and thereby mislead. Hopefully someone out there is interested enough to answer, and hopefully correct this.  --gobears87 (talk) 22:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If people mix up Alexander Hamilton with Ronald Reagan, then they need to read more closely.  The time frame is clear enough. The Jeffersonians called themselves "Republicans," as do most historians. Political scientists in 20th century use "Dem-Rep" terminology because they like to use tables that compare parties over the centuries. Rjensen (talk) 03:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effects of foreign affairs 

message: "Historian Patrick Allitt concludes that Federalists promoted many conservative positions, including the rule of law under the Constitution, republican government, peaceful change through elections..."
Sure a written constitutions, a state not governed by a monarchy, and regular elections were fairly radical ideas in the late 18th century?  What exactly is meant by "conservative" in this context? --Jfruh (talk) 02:34, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Allitt mean the Feds set the standards adopted by most American conservatives ever since. Rjensen (talk) 02:41, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that should be made explicit then, which I'll try to rewrite.  As it is it comes across that the Federalists were conservative within their own historical period. It's always confusing to try to import modern-day political views into the past.  (For the record, I think the broad strokes of this sentence would probably be agreed to by mainstream American political parties of any stripe.) --Jfruh (talk) 15:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed this now though I do find some of the assertions in the sentence puzzling (aren't modern-day conservatives more likely to complain of "judicial activism" than they are to support "judicial supremacy"?) --Jfruh (talk) 15:47, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Like I mentioned above, their conservatism was what we now call Traditionalist conservatism; although the actual revolution didn't occur until the Federalist party was in decline, the core philosophical divide can be seen in the differing reactions that each side had to the French Revolution, and especially in the view of a "natural aristocracy".  Things like opinions on the power of the judiciary or the powers of the Federal government are more transient (and I suspect this is true even today); the Federalists supported a strong federal government when they controlled the federal government, and a strong judiciary when the judiciary became their last bastion of power.  But their real driving goal was opposition to what they saw as populism and a suspicion of what we would now call democratic principles. --Aquillion (talk) 13:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: David Hackett Fischer in Revolution of American Conservatism: Federalist Party in the Era of Jeffersonian Democracy (1965)  makes the interesting point that the younger Federalists after 1800 realized that their elders were too elitist to win over a popular electorate.  The younger Federalists therefore adopted the Republican tactics--and began to appeal and democratic fashion-- in order to build up a large popular base-- although it was never as large as the Republican base.  They took off the wigs, so to speak. In terms of policies, I think their main goal was to build a strong national government, in close cooperation with the financial and business community.  They succeeded in doing that.  The Republicans never liked banks, and managed to close down the First Bank of the United States just as the war of 1812 was starting.  That was a disaster for the government because the Treasury had great difficulty financing the war.  Madison reversed himself in 1816 and sponsored a replacement, the Second Bank of the United States. Calhoun (A leading Republican at this point) followed Hamiltonian policies in 1820 when he rebuilt the War Department. Rjensen (talk) 04:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conservative positions? 

message: Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were not a federalists, but were anti-federalists The American Pageant, Fifteenth Edition, that much can be seen in the introductory paragraph.24.99.80.183 (talk) 00:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Madison was very much a federalist: he, Hamilton, and Jay are considered the primary authors of the Federalist papers. Jefferson was on the line about the Constitution, but was not an anti-federalist per se. Both men became alienated from Hamilton after the ratification fight. Nathaniel Greene (talk) 16:59, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect information 

message: Hey, you guys say that their colors are black and yellow, but then the little boxes next to the words are black and white... Can you do something about that?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3227:4FB0:35B3:A063:B11C:5C34 (talk) 00:54, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colors? 

message: I suggest this be researched, because I think many Presidents have led American military forces, unless it is meant directly into battle.  The only President to directly lead American military forces into battle was President Washington.  President Madison, as Commander in Chief, led American Forces during the War of 1812, but I do not believe he actually led any American forces into battle during that war.
I tried to comprehend whether I needed to sign and date my request, but at 72, I guess my mental abilities have suffered, and I could not determine from the many directions I read whether to or not, so I will sign my legal name, 76.29.143.131 (talk) 03:22, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim that only two sitting Presidents have directly led American military forces. 

message: I'm just curious- where does the symbol for the Federalist Party come from?  How did we decide on the wheel?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.18.240.118 (talk) 22:44, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Symbol 

message: Was this really a color of the Federalist Party? The page in Newman cited to for this proposition does not mention dark salmon anywhere.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjengles3 (talk • contribs) 14:32, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dark Salmon 

message: Since there was a small edit-war over this, maybe we should discuss it again.  Could anyone pull the quotes from the two sources used to cite the current description of them as center-right to right-wing and post them here?  I couldn't find it on a quick search through either, though they're only partially available online.  As a lot of the discussion above concluded, it's fairly complicated given that the left-right divide as we know it today was only just forming.  It's true that they opposed the French Revolution and were broadly more suspicious of egalitarianism than the Democratic-Republicans, but I'd want to see what a source says more clearly. (And most of the discussions above don't seem to have discussed the sources much.)  --Aquillion (talk) 08:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a summary of RS in scholarly journals: 1)  "Conservatives, Federalists, and the clergy stiffened against the threats of rationalism, secularism and disorder"  by Gary Nash --online. 2) Lance Banning (1976): "Republicans viewed the Revolution as a fight against executive tyranny and the destruction of liberty and believed themselves to be engaged in the same struggle against the Federalists." 3) Lawrence Kaplan (1976): "credit for perceiving the dangers of the French influence has often been attributed to the Federalist party which rallied against the French Revolution and Napoleonic imperialism." 3) Simon Newman (2000): "Federalists saw Fries' Rebellion in 1798 and Gabriel's Rebellion in 1800 as parts of a frightening international wave of revolt exemplified by the French Revolution." 4) Benjamin Riley (2001): "Federalists and Democratic-Republicans used the rhetoric of absolute evil and aristocracy to criticize their opponents. "  5) Harlow Sheidley (1991)  "As members of the Federalist Party they [the Boston elite] saw the 1820 state constitutional convention as an opportunity to correct and forestall a rising impulse for democratic reform. Circumstance and shrewd political infighting enabled them to prevail over their Republican opponents."  Rjensen (talk) 09:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are definitely positions I'd describe as being on the right.  Since the most recent dispute focuses on the template, though (which unfortunately doesn't allow much of the nuance that those sources offer), I was wondering if we had clear-cut sources unambiguously describing them as center-right or right-wing.  If not, maybe we should change that template text to something that tries to capture a bit more of the nuance, or just leave it off and let the article cover it in more depth. My intuition is that most sources are more cautious about putting them clearly on the left-right scale because the divide was only just starting to form then (and because the mostly-undemocratic nature of politics at the time meant that parties often didn't have to take ideological positions as consistent as the ones we're used to today.)  --Aquillion (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a recent quote: "From the beginning two sets of ideas would emerge, ideas that would form the basis for...the political Right and the political Left.... Each of the two opposing camps had its champions, with Hamilton (and, to a lesser extent, John Adams) emerging as the chief spokesman on the political Right and Jefferson along with Paine... representing of the ideas of the political Left....The conservatives put their faith in the elitist ideas of statesman, bankers, and manufacturers – the powerful and prestigious – in linking voting to property rights and in gradual change."    Rjensen (talk) 10:25, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That'll do for now, I guess; added to the article.  I'm still wondering about the exact description of "center-right to right-wing", which seems oddly specific, and whether we should tone it down or make it more broad.  I also wish we had a source that unambiguously described the Federalists rather than just Hamilton and Adams, even if they were its most important figures.  (Especially since their grip on the party only really extends to 1800, while the article covers more than that.) --Aquillion (talk) 10:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Right-left politics 

message: Clarification is needed on Federalist and The Federalist Party. 
All Over Wikipedia it seems that these are co-mingled. 
The biographer Joel Richard Paul (who wrote John Marshal biography) was interviewed on CSPAN and he purports that there wasn't a Federalist Party until the election of 1800. Where Jefferson won bc the Federalist Party was divided.
I included a link: </br>
https://www.c-span.org/video/?452890-1/qa-joel-richard-paul (13:30) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bethanyaloha (talk • contribs) 21:50, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the difference between the Federalists and the Federalist Party? This needs to be explained. Display name 99 (talk) 20:12, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference between Federalist and Official Federalist Party 

message: A discussion related to the political position in the infobox is ongoing at Talk:Democratic-Republican Party#Left–right political spectrum. Ezhao02 (talk) 21:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political position 

message: Someone has vandalized the article by replacing meaningful text with the phrase GLEN MAKET in multiple places. Whilst I might correct those instances, I don't have seniority to deal with the underlying problem.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.157.242 (talk) 10:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  GLEN MAKET 

message: Historians of conservatism in USA include it, and it started before Republicans.  See Fischer, David Hackett. "The revolution of American conservatism: The Federalist Party in the era of Jeffersonian democracy." (1965).  Also Prince, Carl E. "The Federalist Party and Creation of a Court Press, 1789–1801." Journalism Quarterly 53.2 (1976): 238-241. Rjensen (talk) 22:14, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  conservative -yes  first =yes 

message: The article is a poorly structured mishmash of topics. I found it particularly difficult to pick out the important subject of the the decline and fall of the Federalist party. I suggest a more systematic, perhaps chronological treatment in which all of the existing topics are incorporated. 209.93.146.110 (talk) 11:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure of article? 

message: Historian Sarah Kreps in 2018 argues the Federalist faction led by President John Adams during the 1798 Quasi-War could correspond to "today’s right-of-center party." Sarah Kreps, Taxing Wars: The American Way of War Finance and the Decline of Democracy (Oxford University Press, 2018) p. 53 and chapter 3.  Rjensen (talk) 10:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Center right faction = Adams 

message: I'm researching a lot of Federalist and Federalism in general and I'm curious if there should be a section with various views from various historians on this article? Like how effective or not effective it was etc? Lincontrain (talk) 15:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Later Years or Legacy