Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/PUNKNYC

message: *==Response from PUNKNYC==
Look guys, unless one totally obsesses with Wilkipedia 24/7, you need a road map to meet the criteria for all the steps to going into arbitration and disputing vandalized pages by posters who are hell bent on distorting the history of hardcore punk with opionated views with not facts or sources to back them.  I offered importants facts on Pat Duncan, Tin Sommer, Ben Manilla, The Mob,  Bob Sallese and Jism in relation to early support and notable achievements in hardcore punk.  User Auto movil and Spylab continued to delete or in the case of Auto movil, post blatant lies to dispute the facts that were provided with notable citations.   At first they removed all references to Sallese, Duncan, Sommers, The Mob and Ism.  Later they continued to removed references to Sallese & Ism.  Let the record stand that Mr. Sallese produced the first hardcore compilation in NYC, with the first commercially aired hardcore song in the NY metropolitan area which boasts the biggest listening audience than anywhere in the world.  Let the record stand that this led to the first commercially aired hardcore music show in the New York metropolitan area which was hosted by Ben manilla.  Let the record stand that Mr.  Sallese produced one of the only chart topping albums by Ism which debuted on Progressive radio's Top 100 while also producing one of the most successful commercial hardcore punk singles by Ism which hit # 6 on CMJ's new music composite.  The facts and citations with references to exact dates have been posted both in the article and on my talk page.  The fact is that Auto movil has posted blatant lies contradicting the facts with no citations backing his contradictions.  In contrast, I have supported all my claims with direct citations to specific sources of the materials used for reference.  Since today, I have been in contact directly with Mr. Sallese and Ism handlers and they have told me that they are more then willing to fax actual copies of any sources that have been cited to any party requesting them.  Meanwhile, all references to Sallese, Jism and Ism have been omitted without a single link noting these important moments in the history and evolution of hardcore.  Auto movil notes that there are seperate articles in references to these players but fails to point out that all links in the article have been removed by himself or spylab.  Furthermore, he claims that I have posted multiple links to Sallese while I have posted only one.  There were only two links to Ism...one noting chart topping moments in hardcore and the other establishing Jism as a member of Ism.  Auot movil's allegations against me are without cause.  In addition, both Auto movil and spylab have made numerous personal attacts against Mr. Sallese and false allegations damaging his reputation and have failed to remove these personal attacks upon request.  All personal attacks and false allegations have been forwarded to Mr. Sallese and Ism handlers.   I'm afraid that your rules are too involved for most of the other posters that have left an accurate account of the history of hardcore here and had it vandalized by the likes of Auto movil and friends who have made this article a vanity article with the efforts of promoting their own small clique of friends; who they have not demonstrated an importance to the history and evolution of hardcore by backing up most of their writings with verifiable facts, sources and citations. 
If you are most interested in creating an accurate article about hardcore punk, then you must start to listen to the facts and not a bunch of vanity posters who are just a few who have obseessed and mastered your complex rules to posting here.  Are you interested in anal retentive rules or having an accurate account of history?  If the ladder is not of most importance, I am afraid the future of Wilkipedia is in jeopardy.
User:PUNKNYC
----
Okay. I'll run through this again. I see that there are a number of new arguments here that are very different from the old arguments. Rather than quitting my job and severing all meaningful relationships in order to devote myself full-time to untangling these claims, only to be met with further waves of them, let's just focus on notability. 
I do not wish to respond to charges of personal attacks and/or vandalism, and/or what seem to be legal threats in the above response by user:Punknyc, except to note a tactic in which an individual will accuse others of his own actions in order to create a 'smoke screen.' If such charges continue, I will cite the record and invite Punknyc to do the same, to the disadvantage of user:Punknyc. 
On notability:
* The article Hardcore Punk is a broad survey article that must cover many locales, topics, figures, and events. 
* Big Apple Rotten To The Core was a notable early vinyl compilation, released by Bob Sallese, and I have maintained a reference to this album in the 'other notable early records' section, including a link to an as-yet unfinished article about it (which user:Punknyc is free at any time to edit and expand). That article would be a good place for this information. New York is only one of many relevant North American cities which produced such compilations, many of which were vastly more important. They are also not covered in detail in this article, and cannot be. 
* The important and influential early New York compilation is not Rotten to the Core, but New York Thrash. Those unfamiliar may check the track listing of the one compilation against the other. New York Thrash includes the Bad Brains and Beastie Boys, while Rotten to the Core includes no bands widely considered important or influential, either currently or at the time. It's nice that it exists, and it is of genuine regional interest, but there's a reason why even experts haven't chronicled it. 
* ISM was a Long Island hardcore band managed by Bob Sallese who released a single and album in 1983, on Sallese's S.I.N. Records. They are one of perhaps a hundred hardcore bands who released records that year, and are now known primarily via this article. Even if the above claims are true (which is possible but unproven), Ism were not even the most accomplished and mainstream-successful hardcore band in New York, let alone nationally or worldwide. (An out-of-print 1990 CD collection is subtitled, 'The Hits That Missed.') One example should suffice: Kraut, another Long Island hardcore band, had two EPs out by 1981, opened for The Clash, were played on MTV, and had Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols playing lead guitar on their 1983 album. Kraut would also have appeared on alternative-radio charts, almost certainly at a higher position. (A Kraut CD collection was released in 1995, and remains in print.) While interesting and relevant for an article on Kraut or New York Hardcore, this material is also not covered in detail in the survey article on Hardcore Punk. This is because the article cannot be tens of thousands of words in length, which it certainly would be if every notable band in every city were given such coverage. 
* If I may put this simply, the attention that Ism has received on this page represents a significant percentage of all material devoted to Ism on the Internet. There is apparently a book for which Sallese was consulted, in which he recounted stories involving the band. This citation does not increase their relative importance or notability.  
* The claim that Bob Sallese was in some way responsible for inventing, introducing, or popularizing the term 'hardcore punk' has changed several times since it first appeared. The latest version is that Sallese used the term in mid-1981, in New York, and that it was picked up by a writer at a college newspaper. If true, the claim reduces to this: Bob Sallese was partly responsible for popularizing an already-extant term in the New York area. This is interesting if true, but does not represent a key historical event. This is a canonical early citation of the term. It is a Vancouver album recorded in 1980, released in early 1981. It is checkable and well known. 
* If I have missed any points of fact in the above response, regarding notability, I would like to reasonably suggest that further claims and assertions about the historical importance of Bob Sallese be judged according to the ones detailed above. If, for instance, it is asserted that Bob Sallese was the first man to walk on the moon, that he wears the Hope Diamond on his pinky ring, that Bob Sallese invented water and can turn the world on with his smile, I would ask that such claims be provisionally discounted until compelling evidence is furnished to support them.
At this point I think the discussion can reasonably turn to the actions of user:Punknyc in repeatedly inserting unencyclopedic material into the article, despite warnings and in violation of several policies.
Auto movil 15:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)