Talk:Cymbal alloys

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While I'm delighted to have information added to this page and corrected, there have been some errors introduced by recent changes.
Things that I'm really glad someone picked up:
*Saluda Glory is now correctly listed as b8, I had said b20. Dunno how I got this wrong, I have only their (awesome) Mist and Voodoo series in my current set and just slipped up somehow.
Things I've changed:
*The wiki link to phases of matter was unhelpful IMO. The usage here is a specialised one of metallurgy, and isn't the same term at all.
*The comment "traditional and brilliant" against Saluda Glory was unnecessary. Many different lines from other makers are also available in optional finishes, but AFAIK the alloy is the same regardless of finish in all cases. So I don't think we want to list all the available finishes here.
*There was one example out of order (Saluda SSX). This ordering is not so much for the reader as for the editor, to make it easy to avoid duplication. Generally people seem to have got the hang of it.
Things I'm not sure about:
*I've left Saluda SSX listed as Nickel-Silver, but I wonder where this info came from. The Saluda website doesn't say. If we don't know for sure, better not to say. The lists are not complete by any means, but they are as comprehensive as I can make them. 
It may well be true, it would be quite revolutionary and Saluda are just the crew to do it.
Andrewa 17:34, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: This 487KB PDF looks a good start. Andrewa 14:49, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

message: Most if not all of the readers and editors of this page are drummers I guess. And we care about our cymbals. Yay team! And we have some varying opinions.
The list of examples is aphabetical. Putting your favourite brand at the front of the list is not NPOV, and will be corrected occasionally.
The other thing is, the list is minimal. There's no call to list for example both Saluda Mist Traditional and Saluda Mist Brilliant as examples of B20 cymbals. If there were Saluda Mist cymbals that were not B20, fair enough. But there ain't.
Don't get me wrong, I love Saluda B20 cymbals. I love my 12" Voodoo China and 10" Voodoo EX China Splash so much that when they first said they might produce a thin trad 12" B20 I committed to buying two of the first batch by return email. These were duly delivered almost a year later and are superb. Put either of them in the same kit as my 11" Paiste trad thin splash and ask which cymbal is three times the price of the other and you'll get it wrong every time (the answer is that the Paiste is the overrated, expensive one - but still a sound I'm keeping, obviously). If you're a really big hitter you will smash them (and the Paiste for that matter) clean in half first stroke, sure, but if you're that big a hitter your handler should buy you nothing thinner than medium thin splashes, and in stronger alloys (;-> ! That's what they're made for.
The point is not what cymbals you like. The point is, Wikipedia is not the place to promote them.  Happy Hitting! Andrewa 17:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Before you add your favourite cymbals to the top of the examples list...

message: I guess that someone doesn't like Saludas. No surprise, I think you either love or hate them. The big cymbal companies hate them, and so do drummers who are big hitters, or believe drum shop jive, or both. Lots of both categories around. 
But we really should cover all brands. I'll fix it when I get around to it. Andrewa 16:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: or remove ones you don't like

message: Hmmm... I'm not quite sure the Australian Government National Pollutants Inventory factsheet is really relevant to this particular article. The bronze article is a better place for this link, and it's there too.
So I'm removing it from this article. If you restore it please give a rationale.  Andrewa 02:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: whats this istanbul secret stuff? its horribly written, looks like it was from someone who had english as a second language, and looks utterly confusing... what gives?74.140.144.112 03:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with above comments - a well-meaning contributor apparently wanted to help readers know what is the metallurgical content of Zildjian cymbal metal, but maybe it should remain a secret. Bigturtle 16:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Um, it's not a secret. The only people who will tell you that it is are jive-speaking sales types, and those they have fooled. But there are lots and lots of both categories around to listen to. Speaking as a drummer, I must confess that we're in general a gullible lot. Andrewa 16:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cymbal Secret Alloy section

message: ===Paiste patent===
The reference to Paiste patent 4,809,581 dated March 7, 1989 has been removed for some reason. This patent is for signature bronze which has several other names, and it's a very significant reference for many reasons. Looking into it; The US patent office database isn't easy to link to!
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4,809,581.PN.&OS=PN/4,809,581&RS=PN/4,809,581 might work.
Or try http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm and put 4,809,581 (commas optional) in the search field.
It makes fascinating reading, is written largely in layman's terms, and covers not only the alloy composition but many details of the heat-treatment, hardness as tested, etc.. Andrewa (talk) 23:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: More on "secret" alloys

message: The reference to Paiste patent 4,809,581 dated March 7, 1989 has been removed for some reason. This patent is for signature bronze which has several other names, and it's a very significant reference for many reasons. Looking into it; The US patent office database isn't easy to link to!
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4,809,581.PN.&OS=PN/4,809,581&RS=PN/4,809,581 might work.
Or try http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm and put 4,809,581 (commas optional) in the search field.
It makes fascinating reading, is written largely in layman's terms, and covers not only the alloy composition but many details of the heat-treatment, hardness as tested, etc.. Andrewa (talk) 23:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Paiste patent

message: It hasn't been possible to keep the composition of an alloy secret for more than a century now! It was once, and many 20th century cymbal company catalogues and brochures and perhaps even websites (I must check the wayback machine) made claims as to secret alloys. But by this time such claims were pure lies. I guess not many drummers are metallurgists or even have a metallurgist for a close relative, but my father is a metallurgist, and I grew up to the sound of his laughter at the absurd claims made in cymbal sales literature.
The problem is that there are now many "reliable sources" that fell for these claims, and I don't have one to quote refuting them. A good research project for someone if I don't get around to it first.
There are lots of secrets in cymbal making. Alloy composition is no longer one of them. Andrewa (talk) 23:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Are there secrets?

message: * http://www.paiste.com/e/about_alloys.php?menuid=314 An interesting rewrite of history by Paiste.
* http://www.drumsetconnect.com/drum-forum/cymbals/8489-cymbal-alloys-explained.html a non-compliant mirror with a previous version of our article... in some ways a better version than our current one.
* http://www.moderndrummer.com/site/2011/10/what-you-need-to-know-about-cymbal-alloys/#.UIHUcG-Sqgs  Excellent article from Modern Drummer.
More to follow... Andrewa (talk) 23:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Other interesting sources