Talk:Cuba/Archive 4

message: Just restored page.  However, it might be wise to keep in mind that while residual nonsense still remaining (such as the belief that urban gardens can replace all prior rural food production or that it is important to describe the school uniforms) this will cause some to lose patience and  delete the whole thing.  After all there are over a million Cuban exiles in the US most of us have lost all in Cuba, and many have seen relatives and friends shot.  Most of these Cubans unlike those left in Cuba, seem to have computers. El Jigüe 1/30/06
never lose your sense of humor, no?
but why not describe school uniforms? --Ila Plafo 14:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Restored

message: One can clearly see that the politics section, as it stands is so inane, accepting and non- critical that it leaves people very irritated. "For crying out loud" Cuba is a communist dictatorship, or in more polite terms a rigid one party state, can somebody point this out.  If not, I will correct eventually it, but for now it will be for others to fix this very inarticulate protest.  El Jigüe 1/30/06
Of course, only a Miami capitalist gangster would think such a thing. 24.154.226.13 13:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Going bonkers again

message: "Critcs of the Cuban government will compare the human rights record to the Soviet one (under Leonid Brezhnev)." Why you removed that? 
Xx236 14:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuba and the SU 

message: He was a musician, not a writer.
Xx236 13:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simons, Moisés  

message: What about anti-Communist writers in Cuba? Why don't they have the right to print their works there? I believe that some kind of illegal printing and distribution exists, like in it existed in Nazi Germany or Soviet Union. It's very sad, that the censors cancel any information in this text.
Xx236 14:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Present State of Cuban Literature 

message: If one follows the edits of Comandante in a number of places, one can readily perceive that these entries follow the Castro government "line." That, although misguided, is a matter of opinion. The use of the label comandante, which is to those who have escaped Cuba, almost the same as Genghis Khan is offensive, but apparently allowed by Wikipedia rules.
However, Comandante and others including Colle have gone much further, and work to deliberately expell from Wikipedia those with whom they disagree.  Their technique seems to be to declare the targeted person as one who inserts "Vandalism;" find a ally who echoes the same accusation, and then demand immediate suspension of editing access of the their target,
Here is an example of this technique
from  :
"
Colle That is a complement. You are getting your information second or third hand. On the other hand I once fought in Castro's July 26 movements in the Sierra Maestra. There I saw action but also too many bad things, and refused to execute anybody. Later at the time of the Bay of Pigs I was jailed by Castro.....If that does not allow me to say what I believe is factually true, and what I remember ... then nothing does El Jigüe 1/29/06
"[edit]
"
El Jigüe (this was a heading)
What to do . . . Well, first of all, if any of his contributions are vandalism and violate NPOV, he will be blocked. We can even block him per 3RR rule. The continuation of his contributions is damaging to the Cuban related articles, and we must put a stop to it. --Jay(Reply) 18:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unconditional supporters of Castro government proceed to censor Wikipedia

message: As Xx236 so frankly points out, one wonders how long it will be before the "toadies for tyranny" erase for the nth time all mention of "Seguridad del Estado" the collective of repressive agencies of Cuba Jigüe 1/9/06
===In Wikipedia data that contradicts the Cuban governments position appears to be Vandalism=== 
Goodbye censors strike again Lbmixpro (talk • contribs) has once more without reason (even though I have spent most of my access time today inserting data on Cuban music and literature) accused me of vandalism and will cut me off without warning 
:Why don't you look at that last diff? I retracted the vandal warning.  (Thank you I was busy working on my theories of CAM evolution.) Latter addition
Here they go again, citing rules and regulations that seem only to apply to one side.  In Cuba this attitude was know as "la ley del embudo" One side large entry, the other small (excuses to Swift).  The particular technique of inserting extraneous material into the text of others (see immediately below) was know as coletilla, or the use of the little tail (no obscene connotation intended).
One should also notice that this "editor" allows extensive quotes of Cuban statistics taken directly from Castro speaches to stay in place...
:As you can see, I've retracted the repeat vandalism warning to further investigate the edits. As I'm looking through your edit history, I find that you've been blanking the "Present State of Cuban Literature" section. You realize that is considered vandalism if it isn't done by consensus? That's why everybody's reverting it, and that's why you've been blocked. If you really need to delete that section, why don't you explain why, so people could possibly agree with you. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 20:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Toadies for tyranny

message: Goodbye censors strike again Lbmixpro (talk • contribs) has once more without reason (even though I have spent most of my access time today inserting data on Cuban music and literature) accused me of vandalism and will cut me off without warning 
:Why don't you look at that last diff? I retracted the vandal warning.  (Thank you I was busy working on my theories of CAM evolution.) Latter addition
Here they go again, citing rules and regulations that seem only to apply to one side.  In Cuba this attitude was know as "la ley del embudo" One side large entry, the other small (excuses to Swift).  The particular technique of inserting extraneous material into the text of others (see immediately below) was know as coletilla, or the use of the little tail (no obscene connotation intended).
One should also notice that this "editor" allows extensive quotes of Cuban statistics taken directly from Castro speaches to stay in place...
:As you can see, I've retracted the repeat vandalism warning to further investigate the edits. As I'm looking through your edit history, I find that you've been blanking the "Present State of Cuban Literature" section. You realize that is considered vandalism if it isn't done by consensus? That's why everybody's reverting it, and that's why you've been blocked. If you really need to delete that section, why don't you explain why, so people could possibly agree with you. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 20:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: In Wikipedia data that contradicts the Cuban governments position appears to be Vandalism

message: My understanding is that the NPOV policy requires that “the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each.”  My reading of this section raises questions as to the article’s compliance with this requirement.  The section seems to over emphasize human rights issues for which there is favorable evidence of the current government’s compliance (without giving any counter views) and de-emphasize human rights issues where the regime’s record is less favorable.  In those incidences the section strains to give a favorable view of Castro’s government.  For evidence, I point to the following – The section contains a total of 428 words.  156 words relate to the rights of Cuban’s to join trade unions (36% of the section); 71 words relate to an argument that Castro is better than Batista was (16 % of the section); 162 words relate to collectively to torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extra-judicial executions, the death penalty, and prisoners of conscious (37 % of the section). I do not deny that trade unionism is an important human right.  I do question as to whether considering the extreme criticism of Castro by governments, NGOs, Human Rights Organizers as well as ordinary citizens this section represents “all significant viewpoints, in the proportion to the prominence of each.”
Furthermore, in the sections relating to trade unions and Castro’s superiority to Batista there is not a single word indicating a counter view, while the portion relating to other issues presents counter views, most notably the following,  “many argue that only a few thousands of unjustified deaths have occurred under Castro's leadership.”  I point this example out, because of my amazement that the word “only” is used to describe a “few thousand deaths” as evidencing bias.  This would indicate that the “best case” is that Castro has, on average, been responsible for 63 “unjustified” executions per year in a country with roughly the same population as the New York metro area (under the “worst case scenario presented by the article, he is responsible for more than 3000 per year on average). Under either scenario, I would think that a balanced view would focus more on this. Franklin Moore 08:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see a problem with that ratio, the trade unions are very important and influential in Cuba,  it is the main way, other than voting, that people can effect change. I see our point with "only" a few thousand deaths: I changed that in my recent edit.--Colle||Talk-- 09:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it would be interesting to compair the execution rate to a percentage of population and then contrast it against other revolutions (Soviet, Chinese, etc.) This information may help put this into perspective and promote a NPOV Rklawton 01:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That source is not credible.--Colle||Talk-- 02:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Human Rights NPOV?

message: The death toll from Castro has been reported 1959-1987 there have been from 35,000 to 141,000  (table is in thousands) executions. Dividing these figures gives several thousand a year. Were this to occur in the US one could calculate, a non-judicial execution rate of the order of 30,000 to 100,000 killings a year.  El Jigüe 2-12-06
:I think it would be interesting to compair the execution rate to a percentage of population and then contrast it against other revolutions (Soviet, Chinese, etc.) This information may help put this into perspective and promote a NPOV Rklawton 01:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That source is not credible.--Colle||Talk-- 02:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cheese Paring tactics

message: Wow! am I learning a lot Montreal lawyer Arnold August, Canadian Communist Party Member ((Marxist Leninist) is ideally suited to do studies on elections in Cuba.  I really must stop using general citations that oppose his views.  xe xe El Jigüe 2-13-06
The only reason I used August as a source is because it was the only way I could stop the editors from claiming the national assembly had more than 1 candidate per seat68.212.182.237 05:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Montreal lawyer Arnold August, is a Canadian Communist Party Member (Marxist Leninist)

message: El Jigüe
What to do . . . Well, first of all, if any of his contributions are vandalism and violate NPOV, he will be blocked. We can even block him per 3RR rule. The continuation of his contributions is damaging to the Cuban related articles, and we must put a stop to it. --Jay(Reply) 18:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy 

message: Kids, I'm not going to  play in your games. I don't know why are you spreading Communist propaganda. Sooner or later the Cuban system will collapse, all your lies will be recorded here, like those of Sartre, Shaw and other useful idiots. 
Xx236 14:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Censorship 

message: Let's put "possible" before any statement of the government, to make symmetry.
Xx236 15:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible prisoners of conscience 

message: From January to April 2005, Cubans purchased 42.6 percent less food than in the same period in 2004.
Did the agriculture did well in 2005? I doubt it.
2001 profile
http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/agriculture-food/country-profile-46.html
Percent change since 1979-81 -2               World +32
Cuba believes to be wiser than the World.                                                                                         
Xx236 12:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agriculture 

message: My statement about the censorship in Cuba has been removed with the comment "there is censorship in every country". In some countries 99% of the population has access only to censored books and tv, and I believe Cuba belongs to such countries. In other countries people can have any book or tv channel if they want enough, and they don't belong to 20% of the lower class,  like in many countries including my own and the one of my opponent.
The statement " there is censorship in every country" is close to statements "any country commits crimes" (but I believe that certain crimes like the Holocaust are bigger than crimes committed by the government of Switzerland. 
The Cuba article is biased, it presents mainly the point of view of the Cuban government. Noone is able to study the problem of censorship in Cuba, because he/she will be arrested there, but anyone can copy propaganda texts from propaganda pages living in a nasty capitalist system, using nasty freedom and suffering under allegen Swedish or Belgian censorship.
It seems that some of the Wikipedia activists are biased. If the Wikipedia is a leftist project, I will not contribute. Please - tell me where is it written that Wikipedia is pro-revolutionary and pro-Soviet and that the point of view of the victims of the Communism is worse than yours?
I admit, I make many errors. When I see errors of other people, I correct or leave a message to the author asking for correction. I used to live in a system, when activists removed any critics and it's exactly what is going here in many texts - some errors and lies are defended and my contribusions are being removed. 
Xx236 15:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  there is censorship in every country 

message: Pro-Castro and anti-Castro militants fight editing the text. No discussion in the Discussion area. I believe that the article should be frozen.
Xx236 09:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a specific issue you would like to bring up?--Colle||Talk-- 10:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuba article - war 

message: Is there any proof that communist rule and Castro mismanagement (as it says in the test of this article) is responsible for Cuba's poverty? Rather than US trade embargos?
Cuba can trade with whole world including with some restrictions (such as paying cash with the US).  Thus it would seem logical that 47 years of Castro's control over Cuba has some effect.  The watcher
That's a little bit of an understatement. Cuba's trade with the US is a recent initiative and is limited to cash only purchases of certain commodities - food and medicines. The US has scuppered Cuban deals with other countries by threatening those countries with negative economic consequences if they go ahead. The embargo/blockade, or whatever you want to call it, has always been an economic aggression. The Cold War continues between Cuba and the US and the only terms the US is offering for its ending is that Cuba organise its affairs in ways the US finds satisfactory. The Platt Amendment Redux? MichaelW 21:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economics in Cuba 

message: There is Raúl Castro, the second personality in the state, not mentioned in the article. One of many mysteries of the Cuba article.
Xx236 15:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The classified Castro 

message: Is this text really worse than yours?
Xx236 15:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2886.htm 

message: It has not escaped my notice that presumably pro-Castro contributors (That C may well stand for Comandante, which in turn refers to Castro) have eliminated (by moving to an ad hoc attached site) all reference to formal studies in print. And in turn have inserted propaganda from such as that from an obscure pro-Castro solidarity group in Trinidad...  I could easily revert all this nonsense. However, it makes a far better point to leave this nonsense in and thus support the simple assertion that the Wikipedia page on Cuba and those on some other related subjects have given up all pretense to formal scholarship and now are merely pro-Castro sites. El Jigue 3/7/06
I agree, there are several pro castro, communists who edit this page and delete anything and everything critical of the country while putting up nothing but praise. Honestly, I wouldnt be surprised if Castro has hired people to put up information for him...excellent free propoganda... This is the problem with user edited free encyclopedia's...they are easy targets for free propoganda.  I heavily dispute the page myself.  (Gibby 21:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed that section because it was one giant mess, no other country article (thankfuly) has anything closely resembling it. That this move resulted in the red-baiting polemics above is not surprising, however. That is, narrowly focused depth and breadth of contributions. El_C 13:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Who is from Norway? Why can't participants in this talk page stay on topic? Anyway, the sources were not deleted they were moved. Your implication that there was an ideological basis behind this, only serves to confirm what I said above. See also: United States/References. El_C 00:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't have a site. You must adhere to the tag's instructions and facilitate a discussion, or your changes will be viewed as vandalism. El_C 02:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: All References to Formal studies deleted

message: The NPOV tag is not meant to be used to either avoiding a "relevant discussion" nor (when pressed by me to adhere to its instructions), as a pretext to engage in off-topic polemics. Note that I may ban the editor who introduced it from the article indefinitely, as per the ruling of the Arbitration Committee ( ,  , ) at my discretion (s/he is currently blocked for other infractions), though I am not going to do so, yet. El_C 00:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That rhetorical question is a straw man. El_C 01:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: and no its not a straw man, i seriously doubt you even know what that means now!  (Gibby 14:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I can and will, as per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/KDRGibby#Remedies, unless you conduct yourself in accordance with that RfAr's guidelines. If you dispute something, best to bring  references (for ex., sources comparing Haiti's public healthcare vs. Cuba's, etc.). El_C 14:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You have brought it and in a highly inappropriate way. Feel free to request another admin to look into this, but until you explain specifically what you object to, the tag cannot remain, indefinitely. Please do not place it again without bothering to methodically outline these objections. You have failed to do so, thus far. You are failing to do so now. As far as I see, you are disrupting this article. El_C 14:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: None of these are specific complaints. The chronically blocked El J has not offered any, either.  El_C 15:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: They have not; not in any coherent fashion. If you vandalize the article again, the block duration will be considreably more lengthy. El_C 04:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The tag

message: Has ever any candidate been rejected? 
Xx236 15:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Candidates for the National Assembly are nominated by municipal assemblies with one candidate for each seat 

message: It seems that poor Gibby is being blocked again 
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:KDRGibby
"You have been temporarily blocked from editing for "vandalism" (my quotes El Jigue) of Wikipedia. If you wish to make useful contributions, you may do so after the block expires. - FrancisTyers 03:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that I was not the one who blocked Gibby. I received an email from Gibby asking me to unprotect their page, which I did, I then added a block notice as one had not been added by the previously blocking administrator. Just to set the record straight. - FrancisTyers 18:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gibby blocked yet again

message: Do we have any pages on Education in Cuba or Research in Cuba that I am missing? - FrancisTyers 18:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess so :) - FrancisTyers 19:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Education and Research

message: While one might understand El Comandante's extreme leftist bent, still it is not clear why El Comandante constantly erases references to leftist Graham Greene and his famous novel "Our Man in Havana," the slave vessel "La Amistad" and the unfortunate Jews aboard the SS St. Louis.  Weird!! El Jigue 3-31-06
:And note that this diehard commie is systematically deleting sourced material on Fidel Castro page, which I as a liberal and critical wikipedian following NPOV of course can not tolerate. Beware of User:Comandante's actions!--Constanz - Talk 16:56, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: El Comandante's erasures

message: As indicated by its gender, the use of a in the last syllable and the use of the article (la), La Patria, the motherland, is female . The symbol of the republic, La República, is also clearly female . El Jigue 3-31-06
: In Spanish certainly. Not in English, however. (Mátria, or Motherland, doesn't exists also) José San Martin 14:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Patria (v. Patriarchal) is from the latin Pater (which became Padre in castillian)... you have  Father (masc.) -Patr- as a modifier of the noun Land (FEM.) -ia-... that is why Patria (My Father's Land) takes LA... Patria is feminine, but it means Fatherland (from the cojonudos romans, not teutons... you've fallen for the "little dictator" making-fun antics of yankis)... the cuban's "Madre Patria" is spain, not cuba... he dies for his father's LAND, LA PATRIA... o carioca --200.142.180.66 21:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba is the Mother, not the Fatherland

message: Since persons researching Cuba might find this info useful. Esp. those research Int'l politics. I'm not dealing with this anti-Cuba cartel on the Cuba article any longer.
Government and politics
+
In terms of relations with neighboring states, Cuba is a member of the Association of Caribbean States (ACS) of which in 2006 it was re-appointed as the chair- of the special committee on transportation issues in the Caribbean region, Cuba is a founding member of the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, a member of the Latin American Integration Association and the United Nations. Since November, 2004 attempts have also been made several leaders of South America to make Cuba either a full or associate member of the South American trade-bloc known as Mercosur. , . CaribDigita 15:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well I'll post the info here 

message: Recently added to the politics section: "...makes free business or personal property illegal".  Is this true or verifible?  There is plenty of free business, in the street markets, and in paladeres, and casa particulars.  Also, personal property is legal, perhaps you meant to write 'real property'? BruceHallman 19:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed that paragraph as it is unsubstantiated and plain wrong. The majority of Cubans own their homes, and private business has been legal since the early to mid nineties. Perhaps whoever added the para would like to reword it to say what they mean more accurately. MichaelW 21:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I generally agree with you, but: Is it true that the Majority of Cubans own their own homes?  As I understand it, Cubans own most of the rights to their homes, but not necessarily the right to sell their home.  BruceHallman 14:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the limitation has more to do with valuation - points/banding rather than monetary - so exchange is the method of moving home rather than selling and buying. I'm sure someone else knows more than me. MichaelW 19:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Cuban government picks favorates.  There's *some* Caribbean companies who operate as what appears to be 'free' in Cuba.   So long as they pay *dues* directly to the Cuban government for what the government claims is "for the workers' healthcare, and worker's insurance" etc.  Some Canadian and Spanish companies also----- operate in Cuba in what seems to be 'free', I assume the trade off is they have to agree to similar conditions with the Cuban government. CaribDigita 20:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since the mid nineties joint ventures have been sorted out with many foreign firms buying up to 49% in the previously fully state owned enterprise. Meanwhile many state farms have been turned  into workers co-operatives - the Cuban equivalent of privatisation. MichaelW 20:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  free business or personal property illegal 

message: Recently Bletch deleted external links to the Cuban Constitution, with the explanation 'rv'.
To me at least, this edit appears to be egregious POV.  I might be wrong, but would like to hear an explanation why links to the Cuban Constitution do not belong in an article about Cuba. BruceHallman 15:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, that was a mistake, caught up in the "fun" with User:Comandante.  I've restored the links.  PS - the Cuban Constitution should be moved over to Wikisource.  --Bletch 17:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References to Cuban Constitution 

message: The article presently states: "However, the present Cuban constitution states that all print and electronic media are inalienably state property" citing a USA State Department reference.  Could someone, who is more fluent in Spanish than I, please identify which Article and Chapter of the Cuban Constitution is being referenced by the State Department?  Thanks in advance. BruceHallman 16:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Answered my own question, Article 53.  And, I notice that the State Department misquotes, omitting the words 'social property', distorting the meaning. BruceHallman 18:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  print and media state property