Talk:Paul Samuelson

message: In the last paragraph of the introduction is written:
"Samuelson took the liberal, Keynesian perspective, and Friedman represented the conservative, libertarian perspective"
I think this makes sense only to an american reader. In most of the world, the word "liberal" refers to those who subscribe
to economic liberalism, free markets etc., that is, "neoliberalism" or what is called "conservatism" in the USA. So I think
it can be confusing.
I think it should be clarified, but I'm not sure if I should change it, since the statement is sourced.187.23.100.138 (talk) 13:52, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree those terms can be confusing. The NY Times article cited earlier also uses those terms but expands a bit on their different viewpoints, so another cite could be added if necessary. There could also be links to liberal and conservative, for example, if you think those articles would help readers. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Liberal" 

message: The following paragraphs and above heading were deleted from the end of the Paul Samuelson article:
:Former Harvard President and Treasury Secretary Larry Summers is his nephew; according to the book Harvard Rules, Summers's father, Robert Summers, who is himself a distinguished economist, changed his family name from Samuelson to Summers. Robert Summers' wife, Anita, an economist and professor of public policy, is also the sister of renowned economist and Nobel Prize winner Kenneth Arrow.  
:Paul Samuelson also has a son bearing the same name, except they have different middle names. Paul Samuelson has over 20 years of experience in building, managing and representing portfolio strategies and is the founder of Samuelson Portfolio Strategies. Paul has been the Chief Investment Officer, Director of Portfolio Analysis, and Director of Research at several prestigous financial institutions. Paul graduated Phi Beta Kappa (like his father) and Cum Laude from Williams College B.A. and holds a Ph.D. and a M.S.M. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Paul is a principal of Upstream Technologies wholly owned broker dealer subsidiary, Upstream Securities, LLC.
All of those mentioned above are persons of distinction, and the connections are interesting.    But what is the first paragraph doing in article about Paul Samuelson (not immediate family)?  That paragraph seems more relevant to the article for Larry Summers.  
The second paragraph is largely from an online company source.  Very interesting.  But there are only 2 distinct Google hits for:
:"Samuelson Portfolio Strategies" nobel, 
including one regarding class notes.  The prominence of this connection is questionable for the present article.  
 
The current article has a big template at the top calling for Wikifying the article.  Including this 2-paragraph sectiom (on the long side compared to most other sections) may discourage improvement on what is already there.  Perhaps after the article is improved, consideration could be given to mentioning secondary matters.  Interested readers might regard it as a distraction for now. --Thomasmeeks 20:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other prominent family members

message: User "Sadi Carnot" inserted the claim (in the first line of the article on Paul Samuelson) that Samuelson is known "particularly" for his contributions to "thermoeconomics".  This can't be true, since "thermoeconomics" is virtually unknown, whereas Samuelson is one of the most influential economists of the 20th century.
It's true that there have been many fruitful interactions between statistical physics and economic theory,
and physics methods played a role in Samuelson's book "Foundations of Economic Analysis". This is still mentioned in the Samuelson article.
If someone considers Samuelson a "thermoeconomist", maybe this could be mentioned somewhere in the article, but it doesn't belong in the introduction of the article, because it is clearly a minority point of view.  If someone thinks Samuelson actually identifies himself as a "thermoeconomist" or that his contributions can mostly be classified that way, good citations to that effect are needed. --Rinconsoleao 07:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "thermoeconomics" wasn't coined until 1962, however Samuelson was one of the first economists to apply the equilibrium principles of thermodynamics to economics, and he one the Noble prize for doing so.  Samuelson himself credits Willard Gibbs (the founder of chemical thermodynamics) for this.  To elaborate with (references): A noted researcher in the field of thermoeconomics is American Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Samuelson.Samuelson, P. A., “Structure of a Minimum Equilibrium System”, (R. W. Pfouts, ed., Essays in Economics and Econometrics: A Volume in Honor of Harold Hotelling, University of North Carolina Press, 1960), reprinted in J. E. Stiglitz ed., The Collected Scientific Papers of Paul 32, A. Samuelson, M.I.T Press, Cambridge, Mass., 1966, pgs. 651-686.Bryant, John. (2007). “A thermodynamic theory of economics”, International Journal of Exergy (IJEX), Vol. 4, No. 3.Eric Smith, Duncan Foley (2005): Classical Thermodynamics and Economic General Equilibrium Theory  His 1947 book Foundations of Economic Analysis, from his doctoral dissertation, his magnum opus, is based on the classical thermodynamic methods of American thermodynamicist Willard Gibbs, specifically Gibbs' 1876 paper On the Equilibrium of Heterogeneous Substances.P A Samuelson, Gibbs in economics, Proceedings of the Gibbs Symposium (Providence, R.I., 1990), 255-267.K R Jolls, Gibbs and the art of thermodynamics, Gibbs in economics, Proceedings of the Gibbs Symposium (Providence, R.I., 1990), 293-321.Liossatos, Panagis, S. (2004). “Statistical Entropy in General Equilibrium Theory,” (pg. 3). Department of Economics, Florida International University.  Gibbs was mentor to Samuelson and to American economist Irving Fisher and he influenced them both in their ideas on equilibrium of economic systems.  Attempts at neo-classical equilibrium economics analogies with thermodynamics generally, however, go back to Guilluame and Samuelson.McCauley Joseph. l. (2004). “Thermodynamic analogies in economics and finance: instability of markets” Published in: Physica A.329 (2003): pp. 199-212. 
I deleted the section defining Samuelson as the "pionneer" of the field of "thermoeconomics."
User Sadi Carnot insists it is a field, but it is not, as testified by the fact that no academic journal bears this name, and there is no reference to "thermoeconomics" in the leading literature in economics. Therefor, making Samuelson a "pionneer" of this "field" is pointless. (Cf. discussions on the "thermoeconomics" article where user Sadi Carnot makes the same attempts - unsufficently challenged in my opinion - to bolster "thermoeconomics." Seinecle 16:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think Sadi Carnot did a good job of documenting (with references) the role of thermodynamic theory in Samuelson's work, so including a discussion of this seems appropriate. What I agree is inappropriate is calling Samuelson a "pioneer of thermoeconomics", which sounds like a suggestion that Samuelson identifies himself with the field. It's clear that supporters of "thermoeconomics" identify themselves with Samuelson, but I am unaware of any evidence that Samuelson identifies himself with "thermoeconomics". Some rewriting to clarify this would be appropriate. --Rinconsoleao 07:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I also agree that it's not yet clear there is an established field called "thermoeconomics", and the lack of refereed journals in the field is particularly telling (and the thermoeconomics page may have a POV problem). But there are growing interactions between economics and physics. There is a special issue of the Journal of Economic Dynamics and Control, now forthcoming, on 'Applications of Statistical Physics in Economics and Finance'. --Rinconsoleao 07:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I also suspect it's incorrect to claim that Samuelson was one of the 'first' to apply physics to economics. As I recall from Phillip Mirowski's book, there have been attempts for more than a century to do so. If this is not well known, it's largely because the impact of those attempts has in many cases been marginal. But it's true that some of the methods in Samuelson's Foundations came from physics, and it's true that that book has been extremely influential. --Rinconsoleao 07:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Most researchers have tried various routes, sometimes succesful, sometimes crap that got abandoned. Thermodynamics didn't make it and is not part of mainstream economic, thus I'm also against inclusion of the section. BTW, journals like International Journal of Exergy are not exactly respectable sources for economics. Try something like consistent work in real economics journals like the American Economic Review to get credibility for the idea. AdamSmithee 06:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thermoeconomics? 

message: I hope this clarifies things. --Sadi Carnot 00:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most researchers have tried various routes, sometimes succesful, sometimes crap that got abandoned. Thermodynamics didn't make it and is not part of mainstream economic, thus I'm also against inclusion of the section. BTW, journals like International Journal of Exergy are not exactly respectable sources for economics. Try something like consistent work in real economics journals like the American Economic Review to get credibility for the idea. AdamSmithee 06:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: The criticisms section is quite sad, I think it should just be removed. Let me explain why. The Soviet economy collapsing as a refute of his ideas that a micromanaged socialist economy could work is disingenuous at best. Firstly, I can't find this quote from his 1989 textbook "Macroeconomics" by searching through it, that doesn't mean it's not there since book searches aren't 100% accurate, but since no citation exists it's suspicious in my view. Secondly, to say that the Soviet union's collapse disproves Samuelson is an oversimplification to say the least. The Soviet Union did have a flourishing economy for quite some time, but eventually that halted; but it wasn't from the existence of the Soviet economy itself as the presentation seems to imply it was. There were specific internal factors that led to the Soviet Union's collapse.
 
For example, the Afghanistan War and Chernobyl caused people to lose faith in their government. Along with those two issues, the government was also rapidly diverting resources away from industry into solely military production in response to Reagan's policies. At one point, it was estimated that around 70% investment resources were diverted to military. This, in turn, collapsed investment in non-military sectors which naturally led to economic stagnation, especially because they fell far behind in technology (since all was diverted to military). This huge spending and limitations in other areas also damage medical care and the quality of services and goods making a less productive and more unstable economy. The non-military labor force also become unproductive since there was little oversight, management, and investment in that sector since they were worried about the military expansion; which further depressed the economy. They devoted so much to military they had to freeze consumer goods production at 1980s levels. Local governments became so upset they started to hide tax revenues from the central government, depriving them of revenues - alcohol tax decline accounted for a loss of 12% of state revenue alone. These failing conditions also forced the government to "bail out" large enterprises, further depriving them of capital for investment and production. 
And this was just internally. 
Reagan artificially reduced their ability to export natural gas to European countries and kept prices artificially low to reduce revenue to the SU. Carter placed trade embargos on the Soviet Union. Both of those policies led to huge trade-gaps which caused economic ruin. This is especially true since the trade-gap forced people to turn to consumer imports further decreasing the incentive to produce with low capital from the government. 
In short, it wasn't the socialist economy that led to the collapse. It was foreign pressures (primarily the United States) forcing the SU to divert all resources to military spending creating a "bottleneck" of sorts and civil unrest with inside the nation creating displeasure with the government. Furthermore, none of this information was fully available to Samuelson at the time since they attempted to keep it well hidden from the world. In short, the collapse of the Soviet Union doesn't refute Samuelson's observation that a Soviet-style economy can work since it was working for quite some time, it was foreign economic pressures and internal instability the led to it. 
Now, to the Phillips curve comment. It's again a question of oversimplifying the matter in attempts to criticize his work. Friedman did not argue that no aspect of the Phillips curve existed, he merely argued that it was merely a short-term observation, that sustained inflation gets built into prices so inflation does not necessarily drop in correspondence with high unemployment etc. Samuelson even went on later in life to accept that and work on expectations based versions of Phillips curve. In fact, his original work was not incorrect per-say, but rather incomplete.
Regardless, I don't believe a criticisms section should exists for economists about their specific academic ideas. By that standard, every social scientist should have a massive criticisms section about the debate of a specific idea. In my view, that's more appropriate for the article about the concept itself. The only exceptions I could think of are Paul Krugman and Milton Friedman who could just be criticized on their public policy political views in popular medium since those criticisms wouldn't already have an entire topic devoted to it, rather than specific academic work which would already have a page describing the debate among economists.
I'll remove the section in the next few days if there aren't any serious objections. Seelum (talk) 20:43, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's done then Seelum (talk) 03:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed three unreliable references, the best of which looked like an okay academic working paper by a "public choice" institute, but wasn't published. This was paraphrased in a blog, which was the second source. The third was some kind of political organization, "marginal revolution". The latter two are not reliable sources. No matter how weak these references were, what was worse was the gross distortion of the quotes from Samuelson and the summary of the cited authors. There is no shortage of notable economists of libertarian and conservative politics; there is no need to use weak pseudo-sources and then distort them.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (talk) 03:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms 

message: Because I am the proprietor of Quotes of the Day I'm not going to add it myself, but I would welcome a link to "Paul Samuelson quotes at QOTD.org" at the URL http://www.qotd.org/search/search.html?aid=5345
There is currently no WikiQuote section for Samuelson, and I think it would be of value until that is created.Vanhorn (talk) 11:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: Why they have different surnames? 83.31.140.186 (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Most elite universities like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton imposed quotas on Jewish enrollments until well after World War II. Jewish families would Anglicize their names to avoid being barred from admission as well as other social stigmas. Madcoverboy (talk) 05:12, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Princeton had a ceiling on Jewish students until 1973; this ceiling was published in 1987-1988, creating a scandal, if my memory is correct. (Soon afterwords, Harold Shapiro became President of Princeton.)  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (talk) 03:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul Samuelson and Robert Summers 

message: The main article says, "As a graduate student at Harvard, he was the sole protégé of the polymath Edwin Bidwell Wilson, who had himself been a student of Yale physicist Willard Gibbs."  This is almost verbatim what Samuelson claims in his Nobel lecture; Samuelson actually says that he was the sole protégé of Wilson and that Wilson was the sole protégé of Gibbs. THAT leaves me wondering what is meant by "sole protégé".  Wilson was NOT Gibbs' only PhD student or Gibbs' only student of any sort.  Gibbs produced several PhDs.  Does Samuelson mean "sole protégé during a particular time period", that Wilson had only one official student at a time?  I'm not even sure that protégé has an academic definition.  Does anyone know what Samuelson meant and if it is accurate (e.g., Wilson may have been a protégé of Gibbs by some definition but it is unlikely that he was the sole protégé).  
Does anyone know if Wilson had other PhD students in addition to Samuelson?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdderUser (talk • contribs) 21:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sole protégé (of E B Wilson)? 

message: Does anyone know the inclusive dates for Paul Samuelson's weekly economics column for Newsweek? It has been my general impression that there was some confusion between that column and Robert J. Samuelson's economics column for Newsweek, which ran from 1984 to 2011, and also whether there was any relationship between the two men. Milkunderwood (talk) 02:05, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''[[Newsweek]]'' column 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Can I question the appropriateness of this section? It reads to me as if Davidson is being used as a mouthpiece for an editorial excommunication. It seems to me rather contentious. To say that:
Keynes had explicitly denounced Walras's approach [to equilibrium theory, presumably] as "wrong"...
seems to me to stretch Keynes’s meaning. He discussed Walras only in the context of the theory of interest, and the terms ‘nonsense theory’ and ‘wrong’ are applied to the classical theory of interest without reference to Walras (or to equilibrium theory in general).
The further statement that:
Keynes showed... that a less-than-full employment equilibrium could exist... with freely flexible wages...
is also debatable. The language is tendentious: an argument is only a demonstration if it is so compelling that it can only be rejected through incomprehension or bad faith. 
My understanding of Keynes’s position is as follows. In the late twenties he accepted the classical view that unemployment was the result of excessive wages. In the early thirties he moved away from it, adopting the opinion that wages were blameless because they had no bearing on the defects of the demand mechanism which were the true culprit. But as he developed the logic of his position in the General Theory he realised that the classical conclusion was liable to reappear through the back door – the ‘Keynes effect’. This is why in Chapter 2 he categorically denied that wages had any role in unemployment and in Chapter 19 he minced his words in quite a humorous way, eventually (and begrudgingly) accepting that wages might indeed be part of the problem.
In later years he dropped the grudging tone, frankly placing the dividing line between himself and the classics in the mechanism by which wages affected employment rather than in the existence of an effect, writing to Haberler that:
I have always understood that they [the classics] favoured a reduction in money wages because they believed that this would have a direct effect on profits, and not one which operated indirectly through the rate of interest... I await a reference from you to a passage where a classical economist has indicated a theory of wages resembling mine in the above respect. [CW XXIX, p273.] Colin.champion (talk) 08:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the section. Colin.champion (talk) 07:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul Davidson on Samuelson as a Keynesian 

message: Paul Samuelson has shaped many young minds. One of them was Subramanian Swamy who later became Cabinet Minister in India. Swamyarmy39 (talk) 11:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  His Students