Talk:GPS tracking unit/Archive 1

message: I was under the impression that GPS receivers required a clear view of the sky for a fix. General Motors mounts the OnStar GPS under the rear window and below the rear deck in some of their sedans, because the window and rear deck are transparent to RF. Once you pull into a garage, it loses lock. Wouldn't these devices be fairly simple to locate based on the fact that they need line of sight to the sky. My handheld GPS doesn't work indoors, so I'm guessing that if it was underneath metal parts of a vehicle it would be very hard to get a 3d or even a 2d lock. That's part of the reason I've always been a bit skeptical of the need for GPS in cell phones. The person stuck in the trunk of their car excuse never really flew with me, GPS doesn't works too well in the trunk. So if somebody sticks a GPS receiver to the underside of a car, I don't think it would be effective. --Dual Freq 00:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I'd have to see a review or unbiased article about one of these devices. A web search comes up with several of these, but most of them have external antennas. Maybe with plastic bumpers and other parts of cars being plastic this could increase the hiding spots. However, I'm still skeptical of just magnet mounting one of these to the bottom of a car. Maybe multipath could get a satellite or two, but even if it did somehow achieve a lock, the battery life would decrease greatly, because the receiver has to work harder to get a lock. I think this combination of battery life and because it has to have a view of the sky would make these things fairly simple to locate. If someone keeps hiding stuff under your car on a regular basis, you would eventually catch them in the act. I'm not buying it for long term surveillance. As for the GPS jamming, again, GPS is an important safety of navigation signal, if you try to jam GPS, law enforcement really will be after you. Even a low power signal could possible disrupt receiver within line of sight of it. GPS information page, GPS power details basically says that a GPS satellite sends less than 500 watts about 11,000 miles. It seems like jamming it, even with a low amount of power, would be possible since a jammer is much closer than the satellite. This would be very hazardous to safety of navigation and you can bet if interferance is detected, someone will come looking for the source. --Dual Freq 00:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Concealable tracking devices

message: Let's leave the helicopter component apart, for the time being. It has been proven that GPS/GSM (thus not GPS/SMS - explanation below) bugs do exist. And common sense tells you that they can be applied for useful purposes, but also as weapons against you. Pursuing ordinary people considered political dissidents by our powers-that-be through GPS/GSM bugs is probably not the kind of activity we have given them authorization for. And this pursue can be done not only through helicopters, but e g from an office equipped with the necessary technology.
I've done some more research over here. I found a german also interested in this field. Although I wasn't quite sure to what degree he had or has a relation to the state (I asked him directly, but we haven't known each other before so wasn't quite sure what to make of his cautious reply), we did agree upon that there is a huge abuse potential for these devices. Should society's balance of power have existed before, then it has been in a state of constant threat ever since the advent of these devices.
He also drew my attention to the fact that the SMS service of GSM is not the only possible transmitting service (for one's geographical coordinates) to be aware of. It can e g also be done via GSM's GPRS/EDGE data transmission, and maybe better so. This is the reason why I would suggest to rather use the term GPS/GSM bugs. If you find a more neutral term that also included other standards like CDMA/Qualcomm (I assume the same technological effect can be accomplished there), I certainly wouldn't object. If you don't, let me suggest to stay with GPS/GSM bug - they were probably first. Also, in a couple of years, the GPS-competing european Galileo system should be ready - no reason either to rename the devices then, according to my feeling.
We also discussed potential counter-weapons and agreed that a combined weapon would be ideal, i e one that could do the following three things, according to the situation's requirements:
1 record all GSM activies at very close range; at the end of the day, you connect it to your computer and make a print-out of the protocol containing the geographic coordinates telegrammes including the recipient's number, for further evaluation through a state attorney;
2 jam the GPS AND (!!) all four GSM frequency bands at very close range, in order to prevent measurements from being made, as well of telegrammes being sent AND 'silent SMSs' being received and returned (they, too can be used for determining one's whereabouts);
3 help you find the tiny and hidden device, so you can remove it (and stick it to an enemy's or patrol car, if you like).
Would someone kindly update the article correspondingly? You're the native speaker(s) and do have more Wikipedia experience.
PS: I would also deem it useful to possibly include people from the 'civil liberties' section into this discussion. After all, it is civil liberties that are at stake through GPS/GSM bugs, so they ought to be informed too. I am sure they will be able to give much helpful input. I'll try and start with putting an 'ad' at their repective talk page.
PPS: Please also change http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps_tracking#GPS_tracking in a way to indicate that the main article about this subject now is to be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_tracking .
Michael Laudahn 14:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can I make you a suggestion: 

message: (Little has to be a bit more in this case. It just lies in the nature of the matter.)
First: English is not my native language, so I won't correct the article myself. I rely on others to do that for me, based on my suggestions. Again, I am a german dissident and as a man with a technical background, I do not only have years-long experience with most probably driving around a hidden GPS/GSM bug and the consequences of this arrangement. I also have the ability to become aware of it, although I have to rely on many 'strange observations' which after months of further observation and consideration start to make sense, if you explain them the way I have.
I had prepared a comprehensive letter yesterday summarizing the present situation of the article - i e before your recent changes. For ease of work, let me copy and paste it here, erasing only the sentences that have no more meaning at all. The rest therefore is still true, more or less:
First, I'm not quite sure what implications the 'Articles lacking sources'
classification has. There sure is a lot more to say and show about this
subject, but I think it is already now safe to say that we've got a case. So
what about removing it from this kind of probably discriminatory category? I
suspect that presently it looks like a kind of 'crackpot' article and
therefore doesn't really invite others to join. Would there be a more
suitable 'wanted' category?
Second, we do agree that these appliances exist, and that they also can be
abused. Experience tells you, if something can be abused, it also will.
Experience also tells you, that government agencies are no exception when it
comes to this kind of things. What we need are more details about their (i e
the presumed LEC = military version) size, sensitivity (with respect to the
concealed places they can be attached to) and battery life-span (assuming
they're not installed, just stuck with a magnet or some dough-type
fastener). In the discussion, I gave the URL of a leading german maker of
these objects and tried to draw your attention to the fact that their folder
directed to the LEC is password-protected *), while the material for the
general market is on open display. Would that ring a bell with you?
Third, I would like to see several changes in the article. I'll enumerate
and motivate them in a separate message - see below.
Fourth, I'd like to join everybody into the discussion who is interested in
this subject and can contribute something reasonable (or maybe knows someone
who can). My idea is, this is not just an electronic gadget issue, this is a
civil rights concern. Do you see any other faculties involved, besides
electronics and human rights? How do we spread the word among them? Again,
we need to remove all the discriminatory  classifications from the article
for others to join.
*) For your convenience, let me quote that sentence: 'Have you especially
seen my remark regarding the password-protected folder at
http://www.fugon.de/ , expressively directed towards the german LEC ('BOS')?
Wouldn't you agree that this most probably is where all the REALLY
INTERESTING stuff could be found?!? Enigma...'
Third: Desired changes to the article
Foreword: ok
Types of GPS trackers:
I've been informed that they don't necessarily limit temselves to SMS, when
transmitting. Another option would probably be to use GPRS - one of the
wider used packet-switched data transmission modes in cellphone systems.
It is also here that we ought to mention that they are used for tracking
down criminals. I've sent you proof of that. See the discussion page where I
quoted the two media article discussing the german constitutional court's
verdict on GPS/GSM bugs dating back to 4/05.
It ought to be mentioned in that same chapter that there is reason to
believe that there also exist more 'professional' versions for the use
through the military, LEC etc, which are probably smaller, more sensitive
(can be placed 'anywhere' and still work, without external antennas) and
have a long battery life-span.
Potential abuse of GPS trackers:
What is said in the box is basically correct. Could it be re-formulated in a
way to provoke people's interest, rather than stir a feeling for lack of
trustworthiness? Something along the line that 'these are military-style
secrets thus hard to ascertain; anyone from inside this business having
doubts about their ultimate legitimacy should feel invited to help us with
the facts we need', maybe?
Please delete this 'black helicopter' stuff. Instead, just mention that
anyone with the necessary reception gear can (ab)use the information coming
forth from any of these bugs. And if he sits in an office, a patrol car or
ditto flying machine makes no difference, in this context. The present
wording only contributes to make the whole matter unauthentic.
Instead, you could say that if these devices (i e the LEC version) are as
small and powerful as they seem to be, then this would open the way for
ample abuse of them, through state agencies as well as private individuals.
This conclusion would then logically lead over to
Countermeasures against GPS trackers (because now most would probably regard
them justified):
What is said there is not incorrect. However, I would suggest to enumerate
the complete range of options the ideal counter-weapon should dispose of:
protocolling, jamming (GPS + GSM), finding facility. Finally, it would also
have to be emphasized that the jamming capability of the counter-weapon
ought to be designed in a way to have ultrashort-range effect only; in other
words to make sure that in most cases only one's 'own' (enemy-planted) bug
is affected, not the legitimate GPS and GSM devices of other people faring
in the vicinity.
See also/External links:
I feel at this stage not in a position to say something founded on that.
However, my impression is that if the article is less than ideal, then this
collection of links ought to be revised, too. What does make sense are the
last two GSM links, as they show in which countries GSM is available plus
the footprint of the networks in each country.
Michael Laudahn 10:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agent X2: Basically thanks - with a 'little' more 

message: I removed the paragraph "The advent of GPS tracking devices potentially could shift society's balance of power towards that of a police state. It is now much easier for surveillance abuse to be used for political repression or social control, as envisioned by George Orwell in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four." as WP:NOT a crystal ball. Actual verified abuse that has occured, or verifiable warning of future danger from a legitimate published party (shouldn't be too hard to find) would be OK. Herostratus 08:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  not a crystal ball 

message: 68.251.43.232 posted inside the article:
This above information is inaccurate. The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in United States v. Garcia (7th Cir., 2007) 2007 WL 286534, held that placing a GPS tracking device on the vehicle owned by the suspect did not amount to a search.
Ivansanchez 01:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About "potential abuse" 

message: The following entries in "see also" appear to be ads.  do they belong here?  (GPS Equipment companies etc)
Insight_USA
ESITrack
Inrix
Dingfelder 01:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are links to wikipedia articles not to sales sites. GPS Police and OnStar are companies as well. If the articles linked to are bad articles then get those articles deleted. --Dual Freq 04:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: not quite what I meant.  What I was asking is:  These links point to wiki pages for companies in the GPS sector.   Should those pages exist as wiki articles?  or are they themeslves spam? Certainly there are many other major companies in that same sector that are not listed.  I don't see any particularly notable info on those pages, that sets these companies apart from their competitors. Should all major companies in this sector have therir own pages and then be listed here as well?  Adding only a coupld compaines out of many seems subjective at best. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dingfelder (talk • contribs) 22:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: A company should be linked from a wikipedia article if it is really relevant to the content of the article. e.g. if that company invented the GPS modules, or contributed with a major and recognised technological breakout.Ivansanchez 18:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: advertisements

message: I've removed this section. It fills continually with spam and only has one arguable link (the Russian one - which I'll look at including somewhere else).
I strongly suggest that the article simply doesn't need this section. If you are a commercial concern then try not to see this as unfair and deal with it - Wikipedia policy is a clear NO to advertising.--Matt Lewis (talk) 12:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: I feel there is a substantive difference between GPS Tracking and GPS Wildlife Tracking which, as a process, is a branch of environmental biology and potentially conservation management. Should any merge be deemed necessary, I feel it should be into an article on Wildlife Telemetry or Animal Telemetry in general. Steelwool (talk) 05:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merge of [[GPS Wildlife Tracking]]

message: Are there any available references for the material covered in this section? Would  be a better tag? (sdsds - talk) 05:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countermeasures against GPS trackers - original research or synthesis 

message: Caught Spying on Student, FBI Demands GPS Tracker Back
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/10/fbi-tracking-device/
2010-10-07  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.7.141.141 (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here's a recent wired.com article with photo dealing with the issue 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: The GPS tracking devices are dogs units that are used to track them in case of theft or during hunting to know their direction. The best-known GPS trackers for dogs re the Garmin. It has the best collars for dogs like the dc50 collars, alpha 100, Astro 430, etc  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.72.153.221 (talk) 04:10, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  THE GPS tracking Devices for dogs