Talk:Nath/Archive 1

message: This article is by a single devotee of an Englishmen turn Swami.  However it reflect little of the reality of the modern Nath Sampradaya, particularly as the sect of said Englishmen was dissolved by him upon his demise.
:Yes, and it says right at the top that it needs historical background. In point of fact, Shri Gurudev Mahendranath's formed a new householder Nath sect which did not dissolve at his death. Only the original Sannyas sect dissolved. Anyway, if you have constructive information to contribute to the article on the subject of the article then by all means do so. If you don't, then do something else. ;-)
:-Adityanath
::The article needs historical context and descriptions of the sadhu Nath sects of India. Please help in adding the same. Thank you, --Gurubrahma 09:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Article has been expanded and hopefully that expansion will continue. Adityanath 15:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to concur that the article doesn't reflect the full historical context about the Nath Sampradaya.  Nath Sampradaya in its entirety is a Diaspora of gurus, sects, monasteries & luminaries reaching back to ancient times. This cannot neatly packaged or cataloged. In general there are no specific rules about who can be a guru and who cannot be a guru. Naths are very free style & open ended.  Perspectives and biases of modern writers does not accurately reflect the ancient origins of this tradition, which is rich with innumerable texts from well-respected gurus and luminaries, rather than modern western pedants.  Hamsacharya dan 04:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requests for expansion 

message: I have added a section on the Nath Sampradaya, which elucidates the history of this tradition, but someone has erased it once again.  Why the politics?
:Please sign your messages! Don't know who this is from. Your addition was not erased because of politics. It was erased because it was taken wholesale from a copyrighted website. Unless you are the author or copyright holder of the original page, you cannot give permission to release it under the GNU Free Documentation License. It is standard policy on Wikipedia to check the web to see if a new addition was lifted from another website. If so, it is removed so that Wikipedia does not become liable for copyright violation. Please see the pertinent section of the Wikipedia Copyright policy. Also, if you are the original author, you will want to be aware of what releasing your work under the GFDL entails - it means that anyone can use and/or change your work for any purpose, even a commercial purpose, as long as they abide by the terms of the GFDL. Is that really what you want to do? If you are not the author or copyright holder, do you think they will appreciate your doing so? -Adityanath 20:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nath Sampradaya 

message: :Today the Nath Siddhas of the Himalayas are called the Siddha Sangh, The Guardian Wall of Humanity, or The Great White Brotherhood. They guide the evolution of the human race quietly in the shadows, and are generally not available to the masses for personal guidance. The only currently known Nath Siddha that is widely available to sincere seekers of the East and West is known as Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath. He gives direct initiation into Shiv-Goraksha-Babaji's Kriya Yoga, and Hamsa Yoga, The Way of the White Swan.
This paragraph contains many POV statements not accepted by Naths in general. For example, I do not believe that the Great White Brotherhood refers to the Naths at all. I also do not agree that Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath is the only Nath siddha available to seekers in the East and West. These are the POV of members of his school and belong in the article Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath which has been referenced under See also in this article. -Adityanath 03:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed paragraph 

message: Aditya - Thank you for you most recent edit.  This is much much closer to something acceptable by me - the only problems are that I have not verified some of your wording of my statement - for example I don't know the details of his initiation by Sundernath - he hasn't classified himself as a Dharam Nathi, but I would be comfortable saying that he is a Gorakhnathi.  I also don't know whether Gurunath would agree with your comment about rarely giving a Nath initiation.  Different sampradayas after all have different understanding of what that constitutes, as we've discussed.  I would rather leave out information that I'm not sure about, since I don't want to mislead people.  You are correct about his birth year.  If you are open to working with me to finalize an edit that is acceptable to both of us fully, I think that would be the most productive thing, rather than another edit war.  Out of respect for your gesture, I will not edit the page, but will instead offer an alternative here, that we can discuss:
Another more recent teacher is Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath (b. 1944), who spent his early years amongst the Nath yogis (who he also refers to as the Hamsas - Supreme Swans) of the Himalayas, in whose presence he was transformed.  According to Gurunath, this transformation culminated with his deep and personal experience with Shiv-Goraksha-Babaji at the age of 23.  Sometime later, he founded the Hamsa Yoga Sangh and is purported by his disciples and devotees to be a modern living master and Nath siddha. His book, entitled Wings to Freedom: Mystic Revelations from Babaji & the Himalayan Yogis was first published in 2004. He gives initiation throughout the world into what he calls Mahavatar Babaji's Shiva Shakti Kriya Yoga.
~Hamsacharya Dan
:Dan, you don't seem to get it. This article is about the Naths, not about Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath. There is no reason to put the information I've italicized above into this article. What goes here is names, dates, initiator, lineage, organization and publication. Life experiences, personal details, etc. should go in the article about the subject. Frankly, we don't need this paragraph or the one I added about Mahendranath to balance it at all. People are smart enough to follow the see also links. In fact, if you're going to keep PROMOTING, I think I'd rather simply remove that section again. —Adityanath 13:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most recent version of Yogiraj Gurunath edit 

message: I want to remind everyone that the NPA policy is non-negotiable. I haven't edited this article at all, so I will be able to exercise adminstrative functions here without a conflict of interest if insults continue. Aren't yoga students supposed to be tolerant, friendly people? --Fire Star 17:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[No personal attacks]] 

message: *Nath ([ history] · [ last edit]) from . 71.116.184.140 07:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a quote. It might be a little long (I don't think so), but it is clearly indicated as a quote and seems appropriate to the context. Matt 02:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in agreement with the reasoning and hence I removed Nath from copyright problems. --Gurubrahma 03:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving discussion from [[WP:CP]] 

message: Adityanath, I hope to give a bit of time in the next months to the Nath entry. I may need to write a few letters to get some input from the Naths in India. The creation story of the Nath Sampradaya as currently told here could benifit by some streamlining, IMHO. 
While Dattatreya is looked upon by many Indians as the "Original Guru" Adi-Guru and Avatar of Shiva- his connection with the Nath Sampradaya is mostly Avadhut and concepts associated with Guru tradition. While Dattatreya is a part of the Nath Stream emanating as an Avatar of Shiva, the connection with the Nath Sampradaya as it is known today, is less well represented. 
I believe this to be the case because Dattatreya is SO ancient. The Avadhuta tradition has always been an important aspect of the Natha Sampradaya, though this influence and the position of the Avadhut has been diluted since the rise of Gorakshanath and his followers. 
Of course the rise of the Gorakshanath was due to the establishment of centers based on real estate and ashrams or dhunis. A concept foreign to the ancient Nathas who eschewed a fixed ashram or home. It was this influence of fixed abode which established a stable basis for the perpetuation of fixed practices and ideas. Some thought this to be an introduced flaw. I remain agnostic on the matter. What happened, happened. I'm confident we will work out the wording to fit with the picture of what transpired in past, present and leading to the future. -Chai Walla 08:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I see what you mean. I've streamlined the Nath Sampradaya section somewhat. What do you think? —Adityanath 20:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sure that would be fine. The source actually equates them, but it is a short chapter in a book primarily about archeological evidence... but maybe 'continuation' would be better than 'offshoot?' That would cover both the reason for identifying them as well as pointing out the difference, and would not conflict with the reference. —Adityanath 01:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References and Possible Modifications