Talk:Chaldean Catholics

message: There's been a big mistake, not necessarily religion can trace their ethnicity. This is an error which unfortunately today is causing wars in the world and we see a repeat of that here unfortunately.There are followers of the  Chaldean Church who are Assyrians(generally those who come from villages in the Nineveh plain where there were tribes Assyrian), the Chaldeans are the ethnic  that the descendant of the Babylonian people who also live in their villages and go to the Chaldean Church. Just as there are Arabs who are Christians and attend the Chaldean Church, some of these cities generally  Mosul was inhabited by tribes in its founding of the Kingdom of Araba who were Arab tribes who founded the city of Hatra under a Parthian empire and were in Mosul and Iraq before Islam, as Manathera, Taghlib, Tayy and others who certainly have christians descendants in the major cities of Iraq. We can also mention that some Armenians Chaldean church goers. In this same way the church you attend does not trace their ethnicity, just as there are Muslims who are not Arabs. Even the followers of the Eastern Church and the Assyrian Church, not all are ethnically Assyrian, there are Arabs, Armenians and other ethnic groups. we will be debating that our whole life? We the christians, we have pray to a better world.
The reality is we are all Semites and one people by faith, or Chaldean, Assyrian, Arabic and so are all of the Chaldean church and defend our belief that the world is peace and love. This type of discussion serves to divide rather than enhances our people. So let's save our strength to unite our people and do our best Iraq. 
God Bless all Brothers  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salim1187 (talk • contribs) 20:32, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please brothers of Religion, we need change this discussion 

message: On that article, it is said that Chaldeans speak Syriac. I assure you that this language is long gone. Chaldeans and Assyrians speak Neo-Aramaic languages.  I was reverted when I removed it from the language list. I didn't want to have a edit war, so I came here to start this very important discussion (or rather question) - Why is Syriac listed there when it doesn't exist anymore? Not to mention, shouldn't it be Chaldean Neo-Aramaic instead? That's what Chaldeans SPEAK after all. User:Meganesia (talk) 27 February 2015 (UTC)
:Theoretically, all Assyrians/Chaldeans speak Syriac considering that their Neo-Aramaic dialects all originated from Syriac. Syriac, the old and first dialect itself, it still used by the respective Assyrian churches as well; so theoretically, they do use Syriac. ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 19:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "Syriac language"

message: Neither in this article nor anywhere else do I see a serious source for "Chaldeans" to be a distinct ethnicity. Every serious academic source I know of describes the term "Chaldean" for contemporary people as an invention by early modernity European missionaries, to denote those ethnic Assyrian people who were willing to convert to the catholic church they had set up under that name. I recommend that the entire article be radically re-written. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the history needs to be rethought. I didn’t know anything about the Chaldean people until today. I saw ancient Chaldea and the Chaldeans, or should I say Babylon and the Babylonian people in a dream I woke from. In my dream the Chaldeans were black people elaborately dressed and they had black people as slaves. History into 600 BC does suggest that the Chaldeans were initially black. In fact, Nebuchadnezzar II king of the Chaldeans and Babylon did enslave the black Israelites after conquering them. This history is also written in the scriptures. As a matter of fact, in Daniel 2:1-23 the Chaldeans are mentioned by name. 2603:6080:4800:5E3F:8D10:EC7F:4762:EBB2 (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

text: The Iraqi Constitution is by no means a source for your fringe theory. You delete huge amounts of well sourced mainstrem academic material, to replace it with unsourced fringe theory stuff. Stop it. If you have issues, go through the mainstream version section by section and say what issies you have, or improve yourself where you have sources. I am reporting your account now for edit-warring. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 22:55, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

text: The central claims of your "Chaldean nationalist" fringe theory version of the article have ZERO serious sources. Any relation of "Chaldean Christians" of today with the ancient people of the same name, that disappeared from historic records 2000 years ago, has ZERO serious sources. The entire "Chaldean nationalist" historic narrative you invent has ZERO serious sources. And your infobox has no sources. Your version of the article is plain inacceptable for Wikipedia. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 23:52, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

text: Your claim that the adherents of the Chaldean Catholic Church "are the same Chaldeans who brought down the Assyrian empire" is exactly the core of your fringe theory, on which you base your Chaldean nationalist version of the article, and for which you have ZERO serious sources (and for which you do not even try to offer any sources). -- 2A1ZA (talk) 00:28, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  There appears to be no single serious source for "Chaldeans" to be a distinct ethnicity 

message: This  speech is intended to manipulate the history of Chaldeans. Assyrian advocates are rewriting their history under false pretense, desperate attempts by Assyrians who are originally Chaldeans turned Nestorian. The Chaldean name is in the constitution of Iraq as a  nationality. This speech is false.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin matti (talk • contribs) 06:33, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Please address the article and its sources in substance. There are plenty of good sources for stating that the Chaldean Catholic Church emanated from and its adherents by every measure are part of the ethnic Assyrian community. If you have doubts about that, you have to present sources. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 09:50, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  We are not assyrian 

message: Can someone create an article like List of Chaldean settlements? 207.38.84.181 (talk) 00:19, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Area of settlement 

message: Recent edits by an IP user(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2602:306:31B4:1C10:FDD8:D71B:A0BB:984E) to this and several other pages consistently make Chaldean Christians their own ethnic group rather than being Assyrian. I don't know enough about the subject matter to know if this is correct. However, similar past edits were reverted, and the current edits also make claims beyond what is in the cited sources. Thus the placement of the flags int he hopes they'll attract someone more knowledgeable. 2601:401:502:320A:44E6:16AF:15FF:6799 (talk) 03:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Edits prompting the tags 

message: Let's not make this more complicated than it has to be. Let's merge Chaldean Catholics with Chaldean Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:18, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: But I think it is more complicated than what you assume. I think the separate article Chaldean Catholics has merits on its own and discusses the Chaldean people more extensively to make the continuity of its article and further development essential in my point of view. In the Middle east in the absence of the ethnic minority entities, religious-related communities have truly political, social and cultural significance and relevance, far away from the strictly religious-related matters and affiliations. More clearly  Chaldean Catholic ia not strictly an eastern Christian but also a separate social and cultural entity worthy of sovereignty and consideration. So Chaldean Catholic Church can handle mostly Chaldeans as a Christian religious community, whereas Chaldean Catholics is far wider than that and includes the history and present of a Chaldean "nation", a culture of language, literature, music, geography, sports, political representation, political parties and movements, Chaldean diaspora, human rights and aspirations etc, far beyond the srtict religious affiliation. In the same breath, Syriac people and culture in the Middle East is more than just the Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic Churches. Same for Assyrians and the Assyrian Church and the Ancient Church of the East. Same for the Armenians of the Middle East and Armenians of the Ottoman Empire and the present Turkish Republic as more than just the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Armenian Catholic Church. Of course we know Assyrian nationalists would oppose the notion of the existence of a Chaldean nation as such, but Chaldeans consider themselves a nation and we should respect that and not subject ourselves to an aggesive and systematic Assyrian "fundamentalism" in this very crucial and sensitive issue pertaining to Chaldeans. I strongly oppose this proposed .merger and suggest even further  expansion of Chaldean Catholics article perhaps with a merited change of title. But that cam be dealt with later in a separate discussion. werldwayd (talk) 19:41, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

text: Support - Just as there is no page for "Catholics" (or adherents of each of the 23 Eastern Catholic particular churches), there should be no page for "Chaldean Catholics". It's redundant, and its contents rightly belong in the article for the church itself. (To be clear, one of the Eastern Catholic churches has a separate pages for its adherent—Maronites—but I think that should be merged into its main page as well.) natemup (talk) 19:35, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Chaldeans are not an actual ethnic group they are well known to be Assyrians, and since the page Syriac Orthodox Christians (Middle East) was erased a few years ago and merged with the Syriac Orthodox Church article and Assyrians article, I also propose this entire article be erased and be merged with Chaldean Catholic Church or Assyrians. If this page exists while Syriac Orthodox Christians (Middle East) remains erased, there is a bias that makes Chaldeans seem superior to other Assyrian ethnic groups since they continue to have their own page. HurryHurrian (talk) 10:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with [[Chaldean Catholic Church]] 

message: Hi, regarding your removal of the term "Assyrian" in the introduction, see naming conventions regarding Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs on Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac)#Name of the ethno-religious group as a whole and that the two first sources that were used clearly states that Chaldeans are part of the Assyrian continuity: Nisan 2002, page x:  and Travis 2010, page 238: "Although this usage is controversial among some Chaldean Catholics, it accurately conveys the fact that Nestorian, Syrian/Syriac, and Chaldean are religious denominations whose members are descended principally from the inhabitants of ancient Assyria". AntonSamuel (talk) 09:50, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Answer to the post on my talk page: Here is a link to the passage from Travis 2010 I quoted: , The first source is of a treatise that deals with the history of Oriental Christian denominations, quite relevant for the case regarding adherents of the Chaldean Catholic Church, Hannibal Travis has written several internationally authorative works on the Armenian/Assyrian/Greek genocide and its relation to international law and human rights, so I wouldn't dismiss it or him because of his main profession being an expert on international law, the third source is an academic article from Simo Parpola, a professor of Assyriology, so I would hardly label the article as "bias from political assyrian journal". AntonSamuel (talk) 10:28, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Answer to the second post on my talk page: The issue of Assyrian continuity itself is a larger one, and not the main source of contention here, there have been countless objections by editors on both sides of the argument on Wikipedia whether Chaldean Catholics should be referred to as Assyrians or not, and while the various modern identity labels that are used by people should be presented in a neutral and respectful manner, the fact of the matter remains that the majority of scholars today consider Eastern Neo-Aramaic speakers of the various Syriac Christian denominations in Northern Mesopotamia to be part of the same ethnic group, which is standard on Wikipedia to collectively refer to as Assyrians as I stated above. You've repeated the same arguments as before, but if you do have credible sources of contemporary academics that argue that Chaldean Catholics do not constitute part of the Assyrian continuity you're welcome to reopen that larger debate, however I doubt you will find many or this issue wouldn't have been settled in the manner that it currently is on Wikipedia. AntonSamuel (talk) 10:53, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: Can anyone confirm the veracity of the 1996 lecture? If so, can a YouTube video be used a source? (see below) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGKkG3xrSP8
In a 1996 lecture entitled "Chaldeans in the 3rd millennium," the prelate Sarhad Yawsip Jammo, who today claims a Chaldean identity, was quoted as stating:
"When they gave us the name 'Chaldean,' they did not mean, did not mean, did not mean that they are from people of Babylon. No! No! No! Don't be dumps, all of us, including me, to think that my forefathers didn't understand that the once living in Tel Keppe and Alqosh, they didn't know that they were Assyrians. Our forefathers when they said 'Chaldeans,' how someone living in Tel Keppe doesn't know this Nineveh in front of his eyes that he is not from Babylon? It's not meant in that way. Our forefathers searched for a comprehensive title, not only for one time or one period, but the entirety of the people, all of it." 
Herengracht005 (talk) 23:35, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments of priest on the naming dispute 

message: The user is adamant on including: “Chaldean Catholics, while being ethnic Assyrians”...”are distinct from Assyrians in the sense of adherents of the Assyrian Church of the East”. This is a redundant and fallacious statement.
1. The ecclesiastical difference is the entire purpose for this pages existence. 
2. The statement positions the “Assyrian” label uniquely to followers of the Assyrian Church of the East denomination, which is untrue and not supported in the pages of the included citations. Ninnyçizzy (talk) 13:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Let us hope that bringing the question to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard will be helpful for us.  Bealtainemí (talk) 16:19, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , I have never had much involvement with this article, and I don't plan on doing so any time soon, albeit this subject area is something I am moderately familiar with. I did worry you were one of the droves of POV users who advocate either Syriacs, Arameans, or Chaldeans are not Assyrians, but you clearly are not one of them, thankfully. I'm certain you're a decent editor, so I have no issue with your choice of wording in future. Mugsalot (talk) 21:09, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , warm thanks for your very kind words. I'm sure that you and people like you are able to resolve problems even as heated as this.  Bealtainemí (talk) 21:21, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , truthfully these problems only get resolved when the other user gets banned, e.g. the disagreement on Arameans which resulted in seven users getting banned in only two months. I would encourage you to pursue disciplinary action to save yourself the hassle of arguing with them endlessly. Mugsalot (talk) 21:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insistent redundancy from user Bealtainemí 

message: I see that my revert was restored again. My suggestion is to revert back to the lead in the edit above, per the discussion above, and based on the fact that the term added to the lead now is not supported by any source. The current source is obviously not referring to this group. Shmayo (talk) 13:45, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: Why does this page claim they are ”ethnic assyrians” when the clearly aren’t also majority of chaldeans dont make that claim as does their church. Also assyrians/nestorians used to be termed as ’Chaldean Nestorians’ or ’east Syrians’ (Arameans) and not ’assyrians’. 83.250.115.18 (talk) 15:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assyrians? 

message: I didn’t know anything about the Chaldeans until 05/22/2024. I woke from a dream about black Chaldeans being the slavers of black people. The dream was so vivid. I woke to research just who were the Chaldeans? Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Chaldeans and of Babylon. He enslaved Israel. The Bible tells the story of Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. However, in my dream the Chaldeans were black but recent photos of them show that they are white. My research into 600 BC history of the Chaldeans does suggest that the Chaldeans were black people. So, who are the white Chaldeans and where did they come from? 2603:6080:4800:5E3F:8D10:EC7F:4762:EBB2 (talk) 13:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Chaldean were black?