Talk:Armenian genocide/Archive 10

message: To dismiss everything that does not fit the Zoryan Institute version of events as 'Genocide Denial' is absurd. Denying that the events fit a particular label is NOT to deny the events occured. To dispute the accuracy of the Dadrian's version of events is NOT to deny the events.
Dadrian's work has been picked apart and he has been shown several times to use selective quoting, elipsing and paraphrasing to mislead. This has been empirically demonstrated by historians such as Professor Guenter Lewy and, for those of you who will just call Lewy a 'denier', even those who Dadrian relies on as citations like Hilmar Kaiser.
A search on any engine for distinguished Middle Eastern historians using whichever choice of words you wish will time and time again bring up Professor Bernard Lewis as the man regarded by his peers as the foremost authority. And you know what the conclusions of his studies on this are.  
The 69 Western scholars of Ottoman history who disagreed with the accuracy of the Armenian claims enough to write to congress to oppose the bill, and God knows how many more would have but for the terrorism being perpetrated against such individuals, are sufficient proof that the likes of Lewis, Lewy, Mango etc are not just a few contrarians.
There is a legitimate dispute here. So DISPUTE, not DENIAL. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.145.232.205 (talk • contribs) .
: If I am not mistaken the scholars who signed the newsprint rejecting the genocide thesis did it back in '85, which was when Armenian terrorism was at its peak. That explains why many more didnt come forward. Standford Shaw once explained how he was threatened by Armenian fanatics because he was going to lecture on the deeds of Turkey during WW2. This was whilst he was lecturing at UCLA. Lutherian 15:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please stay away from strawman arguments like "denial" 

message: I wanted to mention that I have gotten permission to use the Wegner photos on Wikipedia under the conditions they specified on my talk page.  You can use the copies off of Armeniapedia.org, or if you have better copies can use them. --RaffiKojian 18:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armin Wegner photo usage 

message: I have read all the discussion pages and saw that the there is enough evidence to show that this "genocide" is "at least" exagerated. But the final version shows it as a fact and shows the opposing views as unimportant propaganda. actually it will not be fair to say that the opposing view is there at all. if you read the previous discussion pages you will see that there are several people who are there for 2 years. despite the fact that many of their claims and resources are shown to be false by another contributer they always come up with a simmilar page. this is obviously an unethical act showing that these people are here only for the sake of propaganda. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neurobio (talk • contribs).
:There can be no discussion on a fact. A fact of is a Fact.  The fact that the Genocide happenned cannot be disputed. There can be questions about the reasons and the number of deaths, but not the actual fact of Genocide. Did you, by any chance, use deductive reasoning to come up with your "conclusion" that the fact of "genocide is at least exagurated"? It seems like you have... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.72.211.36 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 13 May 2006.
Sorry but really, who do you think you are? Have you travelled back through time and seen the Genocide happening? Your overconfident speech is as though you have. Turkey has very strong evidences regarding the fact that it was NOT a genocide yet you can claim that it is an inarguable fact. I am sure that you didn't even bother looking through the evidences of Turkey, though. Since you seem to be fond of the "the genocide is a fact" statement.
: Its a matter of fact that the individuals of that tragic period in history who accuse the Ottoman Turkish government of giving explicit orders to exterminate the Armenians are liars of the most vile kind. Most of the so called evidence comes from individuals who lacked integrity and frequently were racist. These included the so called missionaries well scattered in the Eastern parts of Anatolia and who totally disregarded human life except those of the christian faith. Others were shown to be gamblers, thugs, criminals, drunkards. This topic is a disgusting attack on Turkishness. It is high time to bring the real truth out into the open. The one about how the Armenians betrayed the Ottomans especially considering that the Armenians enjoyed a highly privilaged status as a community in the empire. It is clear in my mind that this site is racially motivated! 85.0.33.235 17:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  unbeliviabely vandalised and biased page 

message: This topic is turning out to be another source of pure Armenian propaganda! So much for encyclopedic objectivity that Wiki strives for! Whats next? Maybe that the Turks engineered the 1988 earthquake? After all we need to feed the voracious appetite of the Armenian propaganda machine to keep the money flowing! Right fellows? Lutherian 17:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its of a very bad taste and rather offensive to make fun of Turks on the discussion section of such a highly charged topic as this! You should know better! Lutherian 18:13, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Withdrawn. ;) —Khoikhoi 18:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, the constantly wheeled out "objective"/NPOV argument. I find this amusing, because normally whenever someone complains, "Waaah! This isn't NPOV!", it's when they're trying to stop a discussion about something they disagree with or limit its impact. Well, you know, the fact is that the Turkish government did bad things. To complain that this article is all propaganda shows your own bias and lack of neutrality. John Smith's 23:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well sir, the fact of the matter is that every government/country on this planet did bad things and yours has a particularly naughty history! The point is there is a world of a difference between doing bad things and committing an act of genocide but you seem to be keen on blaming the Turks despite the clear lack of proof! Maybe you should read more from the opposite view before blindly jumping on the accusation bandwagon! Lutherian 05:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Yep, talking of... A. Lalayan, A. Alayan, then there is also the 'I killed Azeri by every means possible. There is also the other version, 'I killed Turks by every means possible.' And so on. Serdar Argic fabrications are still alive in the psychi of revisionists. Fad (ix) 16:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Are you surprised that this site is being hijacked by racists? Here is an transcript of a letter written by an Armenian which I think very much summarizes their feelings towards Turks. And yes, I am generalizing here!
[off topic and uncivil comment removed - FrancisTyers 22:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Ruzgar, there are only 243 countries... —Khoikhoi 14:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Big FARCE 

message: I dropped the "totally disputed" tag and then added the POV tag as a compromise but that is weaselly. It seems that there is enough hashing things out in here and enough editing that the POV tag can be removed totally?? I am new so I need to admittly research this more. This topic is defineately contriversial but hope folks can keep it civil for the sake of this project and ALL of are sanities.--Tom 15:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was agreed that the neutral tag should have been left there and removed after some issues are addressed. But with the number of edits this article gets from unregistered users and newly registered users it is very difficult to keep track of anything. Fad (ix) 16:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag/tags in general to this article 

message: The Casualties section where Halacoglu's interview on CNN Turk is — in this context, the word purportedly should appear here — reported simply does not read as English. Parts of it I can guess at, but others are completely incomprensible. If I can't follow it, how can non-Anglophone readers be expected to understand it ?
*"When the Ottoman grand totals are compared to details, he says there is a discrepancy of 26,064 which he locates on the of Halep." 
*"between 09/06/1915 and 08/02/1916" 
*"However, he also claims that subtraction of this group can not be substantiated over the grand total ..."
*"He states that Armenians were not treated as prisoners, which gave them chance to respond to local populations during the migrations (deportations)."
*"He claims that there is no record on the initiation of the local conflicts with Armenians, but just around 5-6 thousand in Dersim, and grand total of this category in all areas reaches to 9-10 thousand." 
Also problematic, the citation is for a television interview, and Halacoglu's work is said to be unpublished. Where can interested readers find an English-language transcript of the interview ? Angus McLellan  (Talk) 16:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Scratch a little bit more and you'll find out why I had trouble with Karabekir additions. This is an example. This should even not be there in the first place, the most relevant thing about Halacoglu I already added. I propose removing those and replacing them with Kamuran Gurun, Turkaya Ataov etc. Halacogly published one notable work, a booklet, which most relevant conclusion I already added in the article, I had trouble with expending his research and wanted rather including those of other Turkish authors who by their publications are considered more notable. Fad (ix) 17:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  While were at it lets at Faurrison et al to the Holocaust article eh? --THOTH 18:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Halacoglu's findings 

message: You guys should check out the topic on the Armenian Legion where a couple of Armenians and their sympathizers are trying to whitewash this criminal group of racist thugs. They are claiming that the Nazi collaborating Armenian legion saved Jews. LOL, its  probably the joke of the century and a prime example of their attempt to distort history and mislead readers. Also, surprise, there is no mention of the murderous Armenian legion of the French Army, those convicts dressed in French army uniform who massacred thousands of moslem men, women and children from 1919 onwards! Lutherian 16:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No relevence to the Armenain Genocide article....though everything else you post is fictional - so why not just make up anything eh? --THOTH 18:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Legion 

message: Please can we try and get this article to meet WP:NPOV. Let's discuss this frankly, without personal attacks. If we work together, we can make this a good article. --Sunfazer | Talk 21:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The page history (diff here) shows that the above comment was made by 85.178.46.152 (talk • contribs) who may or may not be Neurobio (talk • contribs). Angus McLellan  (Talk) 23:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Should I be surprised ? Another user who forgets to log in and finds it difficult to type ~~~~. Let's pretend that I am. The downside of forgetting is that suspicious people, those who might suspect you or Lutherian, among others, of using anons for sockpuppetry or avoiding WP:3RR, would now know what IP address ranges — 85.176.0.0 - 85.182.127.255 for you and 85.0.0.0 - 85.0.223.255 for Lutherian — your ISPs are allocated. This would make any future forgetfulness very obvious, and someone would almost certainly remind you, or perhaps an admin, of your memory lapse. It might be for the best if you didn't forget again. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 23:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit warring 

message: I propose forming a new article under the name; armenian massacre hoax
Where us, opposed to nearly every sentence in this article can state our own point of wiew, keeping a back up of it against the certain vandalism it shall recieve, edit it together and eventually get it locked by some administrator to prevent future damage.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tmr5555 (talk • contribs) .
:Good idea, but that would be a POV fork. —Khoikhoi 00:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell you what - why don't you and David Irving get together on this one - perhaps you can draft a combined article. --THOTH 13:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NEW ARTICLE PROPOSAL 

message: Please work out your disagreements here. · Katefan0 (scribble)/poll 22:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Dear Wikipedia contributors,
Wikipedia is a rapidly growing encyclopedia, where people express their views and the knowledge and in particular on historical subjects,  which may or may not be correct. I am a reader and decided to take a look at the material regarding the Armenian genocide and since it is being disputed I just wanted to see the opinions. Well, it looks like a mess, NOT readable, crossed views and personal attacks, etc. I think it is not supposed to be in the form of a Forum, which it obviously turned into. 
The point basically comes down to whether the events can be called a genocide or not. In my opinion, it does not really matter which tag we put on it, especially that the lives of people cannot be returned. 
Shell we think about what happened to the people? How did it happen that the huge Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire greatly reduced in numbers? What happened and how? Simple questions that need thinking and critical approach. Let's understand this, think about it, read the available sources and then argue. Once we are more or less sure about the numbers (of people before and after the mass killings) then we can think how to call it. I think one can be as simple as this. At least it may help more than just endlessly arguing and attacking each other. 
Vahan Senekerimyan Vahan Senekerimyan 21:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all genocide is the correct term. There is no real dispute in using this term. This is the term whereby these events are known and it is the term that has been defined that exactly describes what occured to the Armenians. This is proven and is indisputable. As for the numbers and as for argueing and presenting sources and such - well I think that if you peruse these talk pages from the beginning you will see that a preponderounce of evidence and sources has been presented which indiputably corraborates the postition of genocide and the events and corraborated eyewitness testimony to prove such. What the Turkish side has primarily countered with here is opinion and personal attacks. Most of the counter assertions presented are laughable and unsupportable in any type of scholarly sense. What has occured here from this has been argument, vandalism and unproductive obscuration of the relevant facts by persons with a very specific agenda to do so and to sheild others from the truth of this matter. Sure - the article itself is incomplete and poorly written and organized with undue emphasis on certain aspects and incomplete or missing information (such as a whole section on eyewitnesses and how the knowledge concerning the Armenian Genocide is known). There also needs to be a seperate and very specific article on Turkish denial of this genocide. This talk page should be for discussion of these things - including discussion of environmental and circumstansial issues. But fundementally to be getting wrapped around the issue of whether or not to call it a genocide and to question whether or not the CUP/Ottoman Turkish government committed such against the Armenians is arguing non-issues and wasting time and space - exactly what the deniers want BTW. --THOTH 14:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See, even a fellow Armenian disagrees with you although if you ask Fadix, the poster is probably a Turkish nationalist in guise of an Armenian, LOL Lutherian 19:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Use of the term "genocide" as part of the title of or as a description of the Armenian Genocide is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of correct a prioper usage of the word. Thus its use in this context is established. --THOTH 19:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Relevance of this comment? Seems to me you are talking about Turkish - Armenian State relations. I for one an not an Armenian citizen...furthmore the subject here is the Armenian Genocide. And besides - I thought it was for historians to decide...oh sorry - that was last months evade/excuse...--THOTH 13:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A comment of a reader