Talk:Morris dance

message: Also On 2 Jan 2006, User:82.44.68.11 added the following paragraph:
:The Lichfield "tradition" has little tradition associated with it. In the 1930s and 1940s Morris sides were started at the two major collegiate UK universities of Oxford and Cambridge. The membership of these clubs were some of the brightest of the day (in later years Cambridge could field a side of six Fellows of the Royal Society) who, in common with many such people, had an affinity for intellectual practical jokes. The Lichfield tradition was their invention; as with all the best jokes it gathered so much momentum that the truth could never be openly admitted. Lionel Bacon knew the truth, and was delighted to perpetuate the story.
It seems highly unlikely - I have been around the Morris for twenty years and know plenty of people] whose acquaintance is much longer, and I have never heard a breath of this idea. It seems much more like a post-modernist joke. But I can't rule it out.
I can however rule it inadmissable in Wikipedia on ground of verifiability so I removed it about 3 hours later. 
Today, User:129.67.116.93 has added a weaker version of the same claim: 'Research has shown that the Lichfield tradition may also have been devised in the mid 20th century.', but still with no references at all, so I removing this as well. 
If somebody out there has evidence for the claim, please reference it. If not, the claim even if true has no place in an encyclopedia. SeeWikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability.2C_not_truth--ColinFine 22:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a reference: R. Judge, "The morris in Lichfield", Folklore, vol. 103, no.2 (1992), 131- 159.  Judge calls into question the authenticity of the source materials.  Some researchers believe it's more or less proven the Lichfield dances were created by one individual in (if I recall correctly) the 1950s; others still dispute this.  I find Judge's article interesting but am not fully convinced one way or the other.  In any case the above claim that Lichfield was invented as a joke that Bacon and many others were in on is very different from the case Judge makes, so if there's any truth to it, evidence would have to come from another source. -- Rsholmes 17:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lichfield claims 

message: The capitalization needs to be made consistent in the article.  Unfortunately there is disagreement on the subject.  Many people like to capitalize the word "morris".  I fail to understand why; it's not a proper noun in this case -- though I think it likely it derives from a proper noun ("Morisco").  The OED entry has it uncapitalized, though many of the examples it quotes capitalize it, and I would advocate following the OED.  In any case, this article is about the only place I've ever seen "dance/dancing" capitalized ("There are English records mentioning the Morris Dance...").  At the very least I believe "dance/dancing" should be uncapitalized. -- Rsholmes 17:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly won't object if you make it consistent!  ColinFine 17:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The common useage around the San Francisco Bay Area is to always capitalize Morris.  I don't presume that such local usage is necessarily globally correct, but it is a data point.  Georgewilliamherbert 19:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here in Michigan, I always see Morris capitalized. Kestenbaum 19:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Are you sure it's not a proper noun?  It seems to be a clear and distinct thing.  It's a subset of dancing, but I think that even the articles Swing are consistently upper case, flamenco is mixing upper and lower, disco is consistently lower other than at the start of a sentence.  Is there any info from the Dance article improvement project on preferred caps scheme?  Georgewilliamherbert 22:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had the exact argument over English Country Dance some years ago on Wikipedia. Some people think it's essentially a proper noun, some don't. But we all know that everyone who uses "it's" as a possessive is simply wrong ;-) Greg 04:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization 

message: I removed this:
:Hoberdidance or Hobbididance was the name of a bad sprite associated with the morris dance. Its name is from Hob, an old name for the Devil.
for two reasons: first, it doesn't belong in the "styles" section, and second, it needs verification -- I've never heard of this sprite, in or not in conjunction with morris dancing. -- Rsholmes 18:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoberdidance 

message: I have added a link to my video of Morris at the Sweeps festival 1997. Should there be a section on Festivals of Morris dancing like the Sweeps?
Szczels 14:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morris Festivals - Contemporary forms 

message: Hey there. Do you know that something resembling morris dancing to the point where coincidence is quite implausible occurs in Miranda do Douro in Portugal? It's called Pauliteiros 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=czBkkTuA1dM  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.22.78.249 (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pauliteiros de Miranda 

message: Someone just added a link to the Project Gutenberg version of this book.  I suggest removing this link.  This book is extremely outdated, presenting a theory of morris dancing that is now thoroughly discredited; and (unlike e.g. Sharp's Morris Book) is not a significant enough contribution to the morris literature to merit mention. -- Rsholmes 03:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  From Ritual to Romance 

message: Hi, there are some mistakes (in terminology really) over the developments of traditional Northwest Morris into what gets called here "Pom Pom dancing"  (erroneously).
These teams are often described as "Fluffy Morris" a term that seems to be accepted by some, but disliked by others.  Another common term is "Carnival Morris".  They took up the use of pom poms in their kit, but I have never heard or seen an instance of them describing themselves as "Pom Pom Dancers".  The term is quite definately "Morris Dancers".  A brief trawl around the web would quickly confirm this. It is not confined to a few older people; "Morris" is a term invariably used to describe the tradition.
The term "Pom Pom dancers" would seem to be a term used to describe American style cheerleader dancers at sports events etc.  This is probably where Morris Dancers "borrowed" their pom poms from.
Try these web pages:
http://dmoz.org/Arts/Performing_Arts/Dance/Morris_Dancing/Carnival/
http://www.morrisdancers.net/troups.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/nemdco/
Be prepared for some websites as colourful (!) as their dance costumes though :-)
Ecadre 01:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's been a while, and I'm now back to change the details here.  I'm going to change the wording to reflect the fact that these Morris teams still overwhelmingly refer to what they do as Morris Dancing (not pom pom) Ecadre (talk) 21:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fluffy/Carnival morris

message: I'm pleased to see Train guard's addition about North west, but it exacerbates a problem we already have: the article is full of unsupported statements. I started putting  tags on the new material, but realised there would be loads of them; then I contemplated putting a  tag on the whole article, but the problem is not that it doesn't cite any sources, but that it contains so many claims that are not supported: some of them are doubtless verified in some of the works cited, but there aren't particular references; others, I'm sure, are supported in none of the references. I was thinking of this in particular for some remarks in the new North West material (eg the picture of the Eccles Wakes, the uniqueness of the Britannia's, and the 'It is said' about the role of Cornishmen). 
This is not just in the new section: I have perpetrated plenty of stuff in this article from my own knowledge; but as it stands this is really not an article of any sort of Wikipedia standard. 
Anybody got any suggestions how we can turn it into a good article? Or is it in fact that much of the stuff we want to say in it actually unverifiable? I don't know. 
--ColinFine 23:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Verifiable (more generally)

message: Changed the name "Royal Britannia Cocoanutters" to the correct name "Britannia Coco-nut Dancers". See http://www.coconutters.co.uk/
Ecadre 02:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Corrections

message: How accurate can a discography on a type  of dance be? We don't have a discography for ballet, rhumba, or disco, so why for morris dancing? Bifgis 04:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the discography is fairly useless.  Perhaps if there were a separate article on morris music (and why not?) some mention of some of the most important recordings would be appropriate, but inevitably these things degenerate into midden heaps of every recording ever made. -- Rsholmes 14:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: For Cotswold there's a useful resource at http://www.themorrisring.org/more/Tunes/index.html and also at http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/morris/music/abclib.html -- Alec.brady 12:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Necessity of a Discography? 

message: I inadvertently deleted a video of Morris dance from my camera. Can anybody provide such for Wikipedia? Cheers. – Kaihsu 15:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've uploaded several to YouTube, if that's of any use.   Can be found here (men dancing), here (women dancing) or here (a mixed dance).  --Tailkinker 16:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still have the original footage as well, if YouTube isn't of much use.  --Tailkinker 16:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And how is that achieved?  --Tailkinker 17:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Does having uploaded it to YouTube prevent me from uploading it there as well? --Tailkinker 19:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I have now added a video. – Kaihsu (talk) 13:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  video? 

message: I'm reluctant to steam in and alter anything - I've only just signed up here - but I thought I'd raise these points/observations.
1. As far as I know, the only Morris dance involving tobacco pipes is Bacca Pipes which involves dancing over the pipes rather than "wielding them" as "implements". If that is actually the case (hopefully someone here can confirm or deny it) that sentence will need revising.
2. "There are claimed to be English records mentioning the morris dance dating back to 1448, but these are open to dispute."
The records being referred to here are I assume these:
1. Item to the Moryssh dancers (from the accounts of the Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths (London) 1448.
2. An inventory of Caistor Castle in Norfolk dated 13th of October 1448 describing a tapestry that depicts a "Morysk" dance.
Both of which are mentioned in the postscript to John Cuttings 2005 book History And The Morris Dance. How far open to dispute these references are is itself debatable. The variant spellings of Morris/Moresco/Moorish would, if this is purely a case of uncertainty over the words, render most of the early references to Morris similarly debatable.
Prior to their discovery, the earliest reference was believed to be found in a will from 1458 (describing silver cups decorated with "moreys dauncie"). This still makes the assertion that there are no references to Morris before the "late fifteenth century" unsatisfactory. Perhaps "mid" might replace "late"? 
The way that the paragraph on the Moresco dances reads in light of the above seems to suggest that Morris began in Spain in 1492 - some 40 odd years after it had been recorded in England. That might need looking at!
There is also a theory (proposed by Cutting and quite persuasive given the variety of activities covered by the term in Spain, Portugal, and England) that Moresco/Morisco itself was merely a colloquialism imported to England meaning "traditional" and applied to already existing dance forms and activities (such as mumming) rather than a specific dance. Given the uncertainty of the origins of Morris it might be prudent to offer this theory - alongside any other alternative theory - alongside the "Moorish dancing" theory.
Emperor Of Lancashire 15:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introductory paragraphs 

message: Just saw this news article about morris dancing and thought I would pass it on to folks here. Use it as you see fit. -- Low Sea (talk) 12:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  News article on morris dancing 

message: I have removed the following very amusing para on the assumption that it's a joke!
This variation on the classical theme involves the participants chasing barrels of cheese as they run, often a fine brie, due to it's weight and consistency. It was perfected in World War I, when poor villagers would chase rats in cheese, whilst they were participating in Morris dancing. They continued to do it after rationing ended and remained popular right into the late 1980's, where they would instead chase car tires. The traditional regalia was a green 'Hulk' suit, due to the fact that the cheesing goes late into the night and participants must be able to see each other clearly. Although the popularity has declined in recent years, Cheesing remains a well loved and classic variation of Morris dancing that will forever be remembered as unique and enjoyable.
Adrian Pingstone (talk) 17:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cheesing

message: What shall be the criteria for including links to specific sides' sites in the 'External Links' section?  Please note, I am not (yet) objecting to the in/ex-clusion of any particular side so far, but absent any guideline [above and beyond 'notability' -- but how shall that apply here?] there seems to be nothing to stop it becoming a directory of all Morris sides in the known Universe. Zero sharp (talk) 14:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I quite agree, and was going to raise this very same concern after seeing two more links were added recently.  I am in no position---either geographically or in terms of knowledge---to say which sides are notable and which are not, but surely some standard must exist by which to make such a judgment.  Otherwise, as Zero sharp has quite correctly stated, the external links section runs the risk of "becoming a directory" of all the sides in existence.  This cannot be allowed to occur. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 23:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links Section 

message: In the pursuit of balance I would look to amend this section. Shropshire Bedlams were both the innovators and leaders of the border resurgence in the late 1970's and should be recognized as such. I have never heard the term "neo-border" used has anyone else? Unless a forthcoming authoritative reference is produced I will amend. John Lewis (talk) 19:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Border section 

message: It might be an idea to link to the Spanish Wikipedia article http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baile_de_bastones.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.46.108.163 (talk) 23:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baile de bastones 

message: I just added a page on Icknield Way Morris Men, it'd be great if the Morris experts here could review it and improve the page :-). Thanks,
Iamleeg (talk) 08:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article on Morris Dancing 

message: The largest Molly Dance event is the Whittlesea Straw Bear Festival, established in 1980, held at Whittlesey in Cambridgeshire in January. 1980? I think not. It was revived in Whittlesey in 1980 having died out some time in the early 20th century. --Ef80 (talk) 00:30, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Molly dancing 

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thread_title: File:MorrisDance.ogg Nominated for Deletion

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Morris dance. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://archive.is/20120711015157/http://dawnsio.com/en/dances/nantgarw-fair-dances/easter-course-address-english/ to http://dawnsio.com/en/dances/nantgarw-fair-dances/easter-course-address-english/
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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: not enough sourcing for the JMO as a standalone article - makes better sense in the context of UK morris dance organisation. Ingratis (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , support. From a brief Google search, there does appear to be some coverage, so perhaps it'll be ready for its own page someday, but for now it's better to redirect it here and build up this page.  talk 18:14, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Klbrain (talk) 10:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge of [[Joint Morris Organisation]] into [[Morris dance]] 

message: , please have a read of the lead to blackface and also the section Blackface#United_Kingdom (and for that matter note that WP:BRD only has one "R" in it).  The lead states that: "The term is also used in reference to black makeup which is worn as part of folk traditions and disguising, not all of which [emphasis added] are perceived as or originated as racial stereotypes of black people" which I would suggest makes it clear the subject is not simple.  Turning now to the detailed section:
* § 50.21.1 ¶1 – Refers to blacking one's face as a disguise for poaching.
* § 50.21.1 ¶2 – Disguising for rioting.
* § 50.21.2 ¶1 – OK, here is a racial steroetype, a Turkish slaver.  In the current climate I doubt that many would object to a slave-taker, slave-trader and slave-master being portrayed in a bad light by the descendants of his victims.
* § 50.21.2 ¶2 – Mentions a spurious controversy.
* § 50.21.2 ¶3 – Disguised dancers and mischief makers.
* § 50.21.2 ¶4 – Coal miners have black faces (hint: coal is dusty and black).
* § 50.21.2 ¶5 – Ancient (at least 1500 years old) pagan festival, with it is to be noted a 19C corruption, now expunged.
* § 50.21.2 ¶6 – If you climb up inside sooty chimneys you end up covered in soot.
* § 50.21.2 ¶7 – Medway Sweeps Festival, see preceding.
* § 50.21.2 ¶8 – OK, here at last is a genuine example of "targeted racialized practice", but it was abandoned three years ago, well before the current protests.
* § 50.21.2 ¶9 – Insensitive political correctness.
So, I make that 3 cases of disguise, 3 cases of blackening due to the nature of labour, 1 case of oppression remembered, 1 case of ancient tradition historical unrelated to race (but with added overtones expunged).  That leaves one solitary case of racial stereotyping, since discontinued.  To describe this collection as "targeted racialized practice" is frankly laughable. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 06:57, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the lead of blackface, it begins  It's only after that, in a  mention, that we come to the part you quoted. I still just don't think there's enough of a connection between morris and blackface for it to be a useful see also link, and the fact that it's already discussed and wikilinked in the body is a further argument against a see also link. Additionally, I think the discussion of black face paint in this article is probably given WP:UNDUE weight as is—it shows up more because it's a fiery controversy that's been covered in the media, but it's not actually a huge aspect of the morris tradition.  talk 07:07, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You're quite wrong.  Stand in the street and watch a large morris/folk festival and a significant minority of the sides are blacked.  There was an attempt a few years ago by Medway Council to ban blackface using the same faulty logic you propose, but fortunately facts and tradition won out.  Yes, the situation is "fiery" at the moment as you put it, but that is all the more reason to step back and check facts, not rush on deleting anything not conforming to the fashion of the moment. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 07:22, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also link to [[blackface]] 

message: The New York Times just ran a feature about morris dancing, which would be a high-quality source if anyone is looking to improve/expand this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/15/arts/dance/morris-dancing-english-folk-tradition.html
Cheers,  talk 16:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good source 

message: Currently the section on styles is rather confusing: it begins by telling readers that there are "six predominant styles", and then lists eight (Cotswold Morris, Northwest Morris, Border Morris, Yorkshire longsword, Rapper, Molly, Ploughstots, "a similar plough monday tradition from the east midlands"). But in the main text of the section, it only discusses five styles, lumping rapper and longsword togther into a broader sword dancing tradition, adding mumming, and discussing molly dancing and ploughstots (but not the east midland plough monday traditions) alongside Stave dancing, the Nantgarw dance tradition, and the Abbots Bromley horn dance in a section on "other traditions".  So how many, and which, are the predominant styles, and how should they be organised?  
My feeling (based on my own exposure to folk dance traditions rather than backed by any reliable source) is that the current predominant styles are Cotswold, Northwest, and Border Morris, Longsword, Rapper, and Molly. I don't know enough about the sword dancing traditions to have a strong view on whether they are usefully grouped together as something like "northern sword dance traditions" or treated separately, but my impression is that they are generally considered separate. The other plough Monday traditions are as far as I know not currently "predominant styles" and could either be treated in a discussion of "other traditions", or mentioned as alternative plough Monday traditions in a discussion of Molly dancing. (And mumming I would not consider a form of Morris so much as a related tradition which is often performed by morris dancers and/or incorporates morris dance; again I do not see that it should get its own subsection as one of the "predominant styles of morris dancing")
Any other thoughts? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 13:25, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Styles