Talk:Horst-Wessel-Lied

message: Perhaps a brief line explaining how Der Fuhrer's Face parodied the song would be in order, as it's not entirely readily apparent when listening to the two tunes. 156.34.221.174 14:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Second that, i can't find any Lied in the film. --Big gun 14:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: "Kälbermarsch" should be added to the parodies because it's by Bertolt Brecht —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.215.119.110 (talk) 06:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kälbermarsch 

message: What's the copyright position? Under the 70 year rule, it's only PD if the author died before 1936. And is the translation the editor's own or copied from somewhere?--Brownlee 12:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the article about the author of the lyrics and putative composer of the melody, Horst Wessel, you will see that he died in 1930. Further, it is now commonly believed that the melody itself is an adaptation of an earlier folksong melody. (See the linked article from International Folklore Review included as a reference.) The translation is another matter. It appears to have been copied from the Wikipedia Nazi songs article, which in turn cites a page of the the Internet History Sourcebook which grants permission for electronic copying. Mapleseed 17:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright? 

message: Is there any reason (such as the German law, though I doubt this has any effect) the original German lyrics are not shown in the article?  ProhibitOnions  (T) 21:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now added them.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 12:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original lyrics?

message: I've reformatted the lyrics and translations; the old version was unreadable. You may wish to fiddle some more with the presentation but please avoid excessive italics. They are very hard to read in big blocks. No need to grind in the fact that they are lyrics or that some are in German, some in English. Okay? John Reid ° 13:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyrics format 

message: A subtlety is lost in translation. The German text contains "Rotfront", which was a standard abbreviation for Rotfrontkämpferbund, who frequently clashed with SA. The KPD idea was Rot Front (written as two words). `'mikkanarxi 18:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Front 

message: In Ruth Lewin Sime's biography of Lise Meitner, the lyrics (IIRC) "when Jewish blood spurts from our knives, we will feel twice as good!" or something very similar are stated to be a part of the Horst Wessel lied. I've seen words to this effect noted in a few other descriptions of the song. But I can't find these lyrics in any official version. Does anyone know how they fit into the song/story of the song? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiserd911 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other lyrics

message: The image :Image:WesselHorst.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --03:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:WesselHorst.jpg

message: I removed an addition of a modern set of lyrics written by George Lincoln Rockwell because the anonymous user said it was "1960s". There are a number of copies of it around , however I cant pin down publication details quickly. I did find that This Time the World (1960) is public domain because it wasnt renewed, but this text isnt in there. John Vandenberg (chat) 00:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  George Lincoln Rockwell edition 

message: I've added a section with vicious Anti-Semitism that encourages mudering Jews. I hope that helps to show that Holocaust denial is unfounded. I've added a quote from someone who thinks it's sickening. Proxima Centauri 2 (talk) 17:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sickening" lyrics 

message: I have heard that the melody to "Die Fahne Hoch" is an old North German marching song. At least one on-line source (Deutsche Volkslieder: www.ingeb.org) attributes, with reservations, the same melody to "der Abenteurer" from the opera "Joseph" or "Josef von Agypten" by Etienne Mehul (1763- 1817). Horst Wessel was from Westphalia in Northwest Germany. The melody itself seems similar to "Erika", written by Herms Niel about 1930 and widely dissemeindted by Josef Gobbels, who also disseminated "Die Fahne Hoch" and who was from the Ruhr, also in Northwest Germany. It is also interesting to note that Mehul was, according to the Wikipedia entry, from the Ardennes (bit west and south of the North Rhein Westphalia area), he studied under a German music teacher in the Ardennes and that the Kingdom of Westphalia was a French sattillate state during the First Empire in 1807 when Mehul wrote "Joseph". There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that suggests the melody to "Die Fahne Hoch" is something traditional to Northwest Germany east of the Rhein and west of Berlin, and not Austria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.13.250 (talk) 18:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the melody is not similar to Erika at all.--2001:A61:260C:C01:D100:4E82:35BA:86 (talk) 18:34, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Die Fahne hoch 

message: It seems to be an outside Sweden seldom noticed fact, that the melody is very similar to the broadside ballad Alpens ros (Rose of the Alp). This is said to be an originally German song, translated into Swedish and published in 1871 by Wilhelmine Hoffman, born in Denmark and the widow of a circus rider. She supported herself and three children as an itinerant entertainer.
A traditional style recording of Alpens ros, speeded up and with some verses omitted to fit a 78 rpm record.
A guitar rock version from 1961
Fairhair45 (talk) 08:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the similarity is obvious, just like oatmeal porridge resembles roast beef. — QuicksilverT @ 16:23, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melody similar to 19th century broadside ballad 

message: I added part of this text to the article here my text starts with, "Another version was". I assume the text by unknown 2nd World War authors isn't copyright but Wikipedians who specialize in copyright issues should check. I have translated the text into English after giving time to sort out the copyright, again my text starts with, "Another version was". Proxima Centauri (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright 

message: "Du Bösen Qb" was in the parodies section of the article. A web search reveals nothing. Does the term mean anything or is it a test edit that got overlooked? An unregistered user added that, the user did only that one edit. I've taken it out but anyone who knows that the term means anything can restore it, please give a reference if you do. Proxima Centauri (talk) 07:41, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Du Bösen Qb 

message: An editor wants to have the title of this section reverted to "Fascist use outside Germany. I think the additional term is both redundant and presumptuous: It should be assumed that anyone (a person or an organisation) using this song would have Far Right political beliefs. On the other hand, we cannot presume to have proof that the users are all of fascist ideology. (The respective Wikipedia articles on the users describe them as "Far Right".) Any opinions? -The Gnome (talk) 09:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling it far right usage looks like a reasonable compromise. There is a section, Parodies dealing with Anti-Nazi versions of the song. Opponents of Nazism also sang versions of Horst Wessel. Proxima Centauri (talk) 10:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Calling it "far right" is downright idiotic. The Nazis were "far left" socialists, in the conventional definition of the term. — QuicksilverT @ 16:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "[[Horst-Wessel-Lied#Use_outside_Germany|Use outside Germany]]" section

message: What happened to the lyrics of the song? It looks like they were deleted, the only lyrics that are shown are just either later additions to the song or parodies. 174.50.171.199 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyrics? 

message: An article about a song and it includes lyrics from parodies but it doesn't include the original lyrics of the ACTUAL SONG, what gives? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.85.63 (talk) 03:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absolutely worthless 

message: The text says that the Nazi salute was made on the first and fourth verses, that are equal, but these verses are not equal, other verses are. Either those were not the verses or it shouldn't be said that they are equal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.136.158.47 (talk) 10:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Equal first and fourth verses? 

message: "The 'reactionaries' were the conservative political parties and the liberal democratic German government of the Weimar Republic period, which made several unsuccessful attempts to suppress the SA."
How the hell is this true? Reactionaries are anti-[what I bolded]. —User000name (talk) 07:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't. The Nazis opposed the liberal democratic government too, of course, but that's not meant with "reaction", of course.--2001:A60:1555:9C01:5889:7CA5:F2F6:EE6 (talk) 19:20, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reactionaries? 

message: Consider revising first two sentences. 
"With the end of the Nazi regime in May 1945, "The Horst Wessel Song" was banned. The lyrics and tune are now illegal in Germany and Austria for any purpose other than educational ones."
The law prohibits the distribution or public use of the song, but there are numerous exemptions for art, civil enlightenment, journalism, research and science. From the  Wikipedia article regarding the Strafgesetzbuch section 86a law:
"(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes. […]"
The second sentence only mentions one of the exemptions, educational. 
Several artistic performances have taken place in Germany including, Karlheinz Stockhausen's Hymnen which contains a recording of the Horst Wessel Song (source: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Courses/154/Hymnen).
This misleading verbiage is also repeated in the Popular Culture section: "...The Horst Wessel Song, which is banned in Germany and Austria..."
Also note, there is no reference for "The lyrics and tune are now illegal in...Austria..." Needs reference to Austrian law.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tor Tiiktok (talk • contribs) 23:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thatthe ban has a limited number of exceptions does not make it any less of a ban.  I have made some adjustments, such as removing Austria.  It can be added with a cite. BMK (talk) 23:42, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Verbiage in Post World War II section

message: In the Far-right use outside Germany section, the French language version is allegated to be sung by the Milice française; however, it seems, given the rest of the lyrics (two versions here and here), and the fact the anthem of the Milice was the Chant des Cohortes, that it was the Légion des Volontaires Français or the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French) who sung this.
--Jean Po (talk) 16:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attribution of the French version 

message: I'm a bit confused by the recent edits. As far as I know "Die Not" can be all kinds of hardship and "äußerste Not" or similar would convey extreme poverty. Pinkbeast (talk) 17:04, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted pending consensus. BMK (talk) 21:39, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that die Not can be any sort of emergency, but "poverty" is a fair translation here. The Communists used the phrase Not und Elend, which means something like "poverty and despair". Roches (talk) 04:01, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the "extreme" bit I was querying - someone edited it in and I didn't think it was justified. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:32, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not == extreme poverty? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article states that "Wessel's funeral was elaborately staged to be as provocative to the Communists as possible". Can somebody elaborate on this? What does this mean? I would like to request some extra information on this funeral, and for someone to add that information to the article. In the meantime, I added a  template. Duivelwaan (talk) 01:11, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Funeral 

message: The lyrics were recently changed and then reverted with an edit summary "see talk". I see no discussion which declares the previous version better. Here is a comparison:
 	Previous	Recent								
      	Raise the flag! The ranks tightly closed!
The SA marches with calm, steady step.	: Comrades shot by the Red Front and reactionaries
March in spirit within our ranks. :|
Clear the streets for the brown battalions,
Clear the streets for the storm division!	: Millions are looking upon the swastika full of hope,
The day of freedom and of bread dawns! :|
For the last time, the call to arms is sounded!
For the fight, we all stand prepared!	: Already Hitler's banners fly over all streets.
The time of bondage will last but a little while now! :|
Raise the flag! The ranks tightly closed!
The SA march with quiet, steady step.	: Comrades shot by the Red Front and reactionaries,
March in spirit within our ranks. :|	Our flag is high! Ours ranks are in formation!
Storm-men press on, in silent, steady step!	: Comrades who fell – shot down by Red Front and reaction,
march on with us, in spirit they live on!:|
So clear the street! Here come the brown battalions!,
So clear the streets! SA is marching by!	: Our flag waves on and bears the hopes of countless millions,
for freedom dear and bread upon each plate!:|
For one last time, the call to arms is sounded!
For one last time, we stand prepared to fight!	:Soon every street will proudly fly our flag unbounded!
The chains wil lbreak, and bondage come to end!:|
Our flag is high! Our ranks are in formation!
Storm-men press on, in silent, steady step!	: Comrades who fell – shot down by Red Front and reaction,
march on with us, in spirit they live on! :|
There is no special imprimatur for the previous version. I think the recent version has a better flow and metre and should be restored. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:59, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the previous version which is a more direct translation. If we are to use a "home made" translation, priority should be to convey the exact meaning, not to have any particular aesthetic or artistic qualities. Especially I find the fact that the proposed "recent" translation omits the originals references to Hitler and the swastika to be highly problematic.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:22, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there no reliable source which gives a translation?  We should not be in the position of having to rely on what are essentially OR translations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:44, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I've sourced the previous version. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:05, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Much preferable then - both sourced and more accurate textually.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:30, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The second translation is, in my view, totally unacceptable. In translating a song, you can choose to translate to prose trying to convey the exact meaning, or you can choose to translate to a song, necessarily taking artistic licence (though still trying to stick to the meaning if possible). What you cannot do is to translate a song which rhymes to a song that fits the metre but doesn't rhyme. No way. And quite independent from the fact that this is the Horst Wessel song. Also, you cannot translate something which rhymes to something which doesn't rhyme but then have one rhyme pair, "founded/unbounded", in its place where it should be, without the others. - Plus the criticism especially that neither Hitler nor the swastika are mentioned by name, though the original does, is valid.--2001:A61:260C:C01:D100:4E82:35BA:86 (talk) 18:41, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: English lyrics

message: The Horst-Wessel-Lied was never the (or a) national anthem of nazi Germany. It was always played after the anthem (on Hitler orders) and is therefore confused, but it only was the anthem of NSDAP. It is correcly described in the main article, but not in the intro above the contents section. Please check and change. 47.71.27.83 (talk) 07:09, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not the national anthem 

message: Removed part about the lyrics being ambigious about whether the "kameraden" got shot by communists/"the reaction" or whether they were shooting them. 
There is no controversy there, since the next line in the song is "march with us in spirit/as ghosts". 
The "SA men are shooting communists/the reaction" interpretation therefore only makes sense, if Wessel believed that the SA men were aided by an army of bolshevik-shooting ghosts. 
I have seen no reference to this belief in any reliable sources.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.137.160 (talk) 20:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored it until there is a consensus here on the talk page to remove it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazi ghostsoldiers shooting people?!? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: , since you wanna discuss. As i commented the reduction: nor text or rhythm allows a parody in that way. the song belongs to the militaria in the third reich as whole.
 The most notable English-language parodyMakamson, Collin (ndg) " 'Der Fuehrer's Face': 'The Great Psychological Song' of WWII" National WWII Museum was written by Oliver Wallace to a similar melody and titled "Der Fuehrer's Face" for the 1942 Donald Duck cartoon of the same name. It was the first hit record for Spike Jones. The opening lyrics give the flavor of the song:
 When der Fuehrer says we is de master race
 We "Heil!" (pffft), "Heil!" (pffft) right in der Fuehrer's face
 Not to love der Fuehrer is a great disgrace
 So we "Heil!" (pffft), "Heil!" (pffft) right in der Fuehrer's face<ref>"Der Fuehrer's Face", songlyrics.com</ref
 Each "Heil!" is followed by a Bronx cheer.
To be clear: I don't doubt the sentences, I just don't see that they are at the right point in this lemma. -- Gunnar 💬 (talk) 13:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong attribution 

message: The Infobox stated: 
 Former co-national anthem of  Germany
 Also known as	"Die Fahne hoch" (English: "Raise the Flag")
 Lyrics	Horst Wessel, 1929
 Published	1929
 Adopted	1933
 Relinquished	1945
 Preceded by	"Deutschlandlied" (as sole national anthem)
 Succeeded by	"Ich hab' mich ergeben" and "Hymne an Deutschland" (by West Germany)
 "Auferstanden aus Ruinen" (by East Germany)
 "Bundeshymne der Republik Österreich" (by Austria)
That's wrong in more than one way. First of all, that song was a song of the SA not Germany or third reich. Also theres no Co-Anthem. Nor it was succeed by any song, since theres different countries. -- Gunnar 💬 (talk) 14:31, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That the Horst-Wessel Lied was named the co-national anthem of Nazi Germany is attested to by numerous sources, and is a fact which is not in doubt. Do not make changes to the article which introduced unsourced information or removes sourced information. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  This song never was an anthem 

message: The city Konigsberg was a german city and region at the baltic sea. The text corresponds that. Which mind accocciates a boat with the time at the beach and can write this (sorry for this) brainfart down and get it in for so long. -- Gunnar 💬 (talk) 14:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The information is sourced. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is the area Königsberg: https://mapire.eu/en/map/europe-19century-secondsurvey/embed/?bbox=2164683.4775006683%2C7260910.270874712%2C2348896.715667943%2C7406599.246786258&map-list=0&layers=158 . Your say that the information that Königsberg with the beaches and the baltic shore is trusty sourced to a boat. Since there's no reference on the textpart, I ask you to show me this the trustworthy source and add it as a reference. -- Gunnar 💬 (talk) 23:51, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's sourced by Mall in the nmz 11/98: "1918 auf die Auslieferung des Kreuzers Königsberg an die Alliierten gedichtet". That may refer to SMS Königsberg (1915). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:00, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Königsberg-Lied is not named by a BOAT 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:16, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Apokrif (talk) 16:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct lyrics: "fest geschlossen" (current article text) or "dicht geschlossen" (picture with lyrics)? 

message: § 86 StGB Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations
Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:
of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;
...
means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
...
Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes.
§ 86a StGB Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations
Whoever:
domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (§ 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in § 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or
produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto.
The exceptions from §86 subsection (3) and (4) apply accordingly.''
Also, please acknowledge that even some Jews payed the third reich actively.
These people abuse their minors, just as well as actual Satanist occultists, other pedocrimers in general and therefore, they should be hopelessly unindexed in the Wikipedia for this reason, if the audio in question is not and never also containing any thoughtful social distancing from this crap.
Crap is crap.
Is it possible please to condone thoughtful unindexation of anything antidemocracy-related without such as sentimenting added up to it here?
Thx in advance here.
--94.134.91.54 (talk) 05:02, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello. Wikipedia is a worldwide project of the Wikimedia Foundation which is based in the United States. German law cannot control Wikipedia content. Wikipedia is not censored. Typing in ALL CAPS is not an effective means of persuasion. Cullen328 (talk) 05:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  should not be indexed in the Wiki anymore due to it (the song in question) BEING ILLEGAL IN GERMANY! 

message: Why is the Austrian anthem listed as a successor? Adrianolusius (talk) 22:47, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succeeded by 

message: Should we include as "Party anthem of the NSDAP", unlike Taiwanese national anthem article. 49.150.0.134 (talk) 13:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Party anthem