Talk:Kundalini/Archive 1

message: The overall tone of the section "Kundalini and psychological distress" veers too much towards the advocacy of kundalini as a verified phenomena (which Western Science hasn't yet realized!!). Rewriting of this section to remove that advocacy is to be desired.
* The criticism is noted and appreciated. The content of the disputed section is now rewritten in order to give it a more neutral tonality. There also ought to be a section on the particular form of yoga called Kundalini Yoga. I will look into that matter. -Hawol
* Thank you. It is much better now. As long as things are properly qualified, I'll remove my NPOV objection. As long as it's clear that how similar the similarities seem depends on the standpoint from which one is looking at them. 65.113.254.188 18:34, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV: Disputed section - Kundalini and psychological distress 

message: Funny this anglopocentric web, the only things disputed are non-western, i would rather say non north-european cultural traditions... i found interesting the article, you might as well erase the big bang article (now found to be a galactic local phenomena, the entire sections of pop/commercial culture, products on sale, and why not as all truths are relative the entire wiki (-:)
The section "Kundalini in the world's religions" needs to be either completely rewritten or perhaps deleted, especially the first paragraph. It takes the position that kundalini is true and that the mentioned concepts/entities pneuma and Holy Ghost are the same as kundalini. This viewpoint would be disputed by adherents of Christianity. --65.113.254.145 20:24, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed section - Kundalini in the worlds religions 

message: It was necessary to delete and rewrite some of the material in this article in order to 
remove some of the semantic confusion and New-Age hermeneutics surrounding this subject.
I hope I have not offended the other contributors in any way, my wish has only been to introduce
more clarity and academical scholarship related to the content of this article. 
--Hawol 10:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding deletions and rewrites 

message: It is uncertain whether these claims arise from genuine concerns about safety, or from particular interests professionals may have in retaining their clients.
I have a problem with this statement. It is not unusual for teachers of meditation and
other professionals within the general clinical field, or the transpersonal field, to warn about
and investigate the possible adverse effects of meditation. Usually the practitioners of a contemplative practice cope nicely but sometimes - if the meditation or contemplative practice has been practised wrongly, or too intensely - serious adverse effects may occur (Shapiro, 1992; Turner;Lukoff; Barnhouse & Lu, 1995; Perez-De-Albeniz & Holmes, 2000).
I believe these warnings are motivated by a concern for the welfare of the practitioner and as a precaution against the phenomenon of spiritual emergency (Turner;Lukoff; Barnhouse & Lu, 1995). As a statement outside of such a context the disputed sentence looks more like something out of a discussion group. That is not to say that there doesn't exist important and valuable criticisms of the client/therapist relationship or the teacher/student relationship, there does, but
the warning against possible pitfalls of a contemplative path, or technique, is in my belief justified. Could it perhaps be possible to formulate an alternative or different phrasing of the disputed sentence?
References:
Turner, Robert P.; Lukoff, David; Barnhouse, Ruth Tiffany & Lu Francis G. (1995) Religious or Spiritual Problem. A Culturally Sensitive Diagnostic Category in the DSM-IV. Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease,Vol.183, No. 7 435-444 
Perez-De-Albeniz, Alberto & Holmes, Jeremy (2000) Meditation: Concepts, Effects And Uses In Therapy. International Journal of Psychotherapy, March 2000, Vol. 5 Issue 1, p49, 10p 
Shapiro DH Jr. (1992) Adverse effects of meditation: a preliminary investigation of long-term meditators. Int J Psychosom. 1992;39(1-4):62-7. PubMed abstract PMID: 1428622 
--Hawol 12:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with recently added statement 

message: I have done some editing in the Bibliography section. The references on medical research on Kundalini Yoga is transferred to the Kundalini Yoga article. Two references (Thalbourne and Ring & Rosing) that are not cited in the original Kundalini article are deleted. They might be brought back in if they can be cited in a proper context.
Hawol --193.214.228.98 17:10, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes in Bibliography 

message: Given the personal tone and orientation of this addition (contributed by user user: 60.234.97.222) I believe that it should be removed from the main page and placed in the discussion-section. I don't see it as qualifying as an encyclopedic entry. Since the contributor does not cite any sources in his overview it is difficult to do a source-critical reading. Remember, the Wikipedia main articles are not dicussion-forums. Within the frame and understanding of encyclopedic additions one can not post articles on a main subject, like Kundalini, in the same way that one posts articles in a discussion group. I don't want to sound harsh and critical, new insights are important, but I also believe that the welfare of the reader is important :)
--Hawol 11:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to "The Kundalini Syndrome", moved from the main page 

message: A roaring noise or other loud auditory hallucination have also been reported, perhaps related to the phenomenon of 'Exploding head syndrome'.
I am removing the information on Exploding head syndrome until we can establish where this symptom has been reported. In other words, we need a reference or a documented study which have reported this symptom in relation to Kundalini- symptomatology. --Hawol 13:02, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exploding head syndrome: statement needs documentation 

message: Thank you for that elaboration, I don't mind the personal orientation of your reply. I also believe that a clearer differentiation between tinitus and different accoustical phenomena (experienced in meditation) is necessary. Kundalini is indeed a controversial and sometimes, confusing subject, discussed by a wide spectrum of meditators, commentators and theorists. Clinical literature on meditation-related problems has been under way for some years now, but the number of published studies is still a bit low. Another problem concerns the import of yogic and buddhistic terminology to a western setting, how are westerners meant to interpret mediation-related phenomena, considering the the great differences between asian and western socialization and culture. These are indeed challenging questions? --Hawol 13:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: Yes, I agree with many of your observations, and I feel that these matters raise many challenging questions, especially concerning the reading of eastern traditions. At this point in Kundalini-research I believe it is fair to say that the concept of Kundalini, or it's related expressions (pranic imbalance, pranic disorder, pranotthana) can be recognized as a meditation-related phenomenon that appears with some degree of consistency and regularity in subcultural settings that include meditation, yoga or other kinds of body work. Not to forget the work of Greyson, which points to the observation of Kundalini-symptomatology among Near-Death experiencers. This means that the concept of Kundalini can be studied with the tools of phenomenology. The main contributions to this phenomenological study have, so far, come from the schools of Transpersonal psychology and Humanistic psychology. The response from mainstream medicine (with the exception of Le Fanu, 2002, See references) has been very modest. Allthough the Transpersonal and Humanistic studies are highly relevant, they do give the impression that Kundalini-phenomenology is something that is discussed in the periphery of the academic world, and in the outskirts of western culture. This is not surprising considering the association of Kundalini-terminology with the semantics of new age and occultism, with mythological hindu religion or with supersitition. These associations have clearly diminished the credibility of the concept. Allthough the traditional understanding of the concept includes such mythological and religious features, it also includes important experiental and transpersonal components that can not automatically be reduced to mythology or religion.  Turner et.al's (1995) article from the "Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease" (see references) might therefore be interpreted as a meeting point between medical and humanistic/transpersonal discourse, and as a possible step toward a rehabilitation of the concept of kundalini as a functional, or descriptive category in psychiatric nosology. That is, as an instrument to detect a particular meditation-related problem, or phenomenon. This is especially relevant in the cases where kundalini-phenomenology is understood to lead to serious mental imbalance or distress. Notice also that a phenomenological understanding of kundalini has the opportunity to remain fairly silent about the ontology of Kundalini (i.e questions concerning how it does exist?.. or why it does exist?). --Hawol 12:40, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: Eye contact during satsang with the guru is also supposed to cause this experience. Within the context of spiritual literature inadvertent kundalini experiences have also been reported to take place when subjects physically contacted powerful gurus, such as Meher Baba, by accident.
I am removing this passage until we can establish documentation for such meetings between practitioners and gurus. --Hawol 12:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meher Baba 

message: I have removed the following passage:
Among those thought to have been victims of a pathological kundalini awakening are the philosopher Nietzsche, and the Zen master Hakuin.
Please provide a reference for this information. --Hawol 07:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pathological Kundalini: Nietzsche and Hakuin 

message: This same phenomenon happens in Qi Gong. Sources on-line point to too many sessions in a compact time frame as the cause. But those sites still claim the existence of Universal Life Forces. 
This problem can be understood but only if you have studied design and Systems Furniture. 
The phenomenon that can cause a sudden dissociative or psychotic episode was accidentally discovered when knowledge workers using the first close-spaced office workstations began having mental breaks, 1960's. Psychologists determined that Subliminal Sight and Peripheral Vision Reflexes operating in the special circumstances created by those too-close workstations had produced the episodes. The Cubicle became the industry standard to stop the mental breaks. 
When either Qi Gong or Kundalini Yoga is performed in groups the meditation and eyes-open concentration create the same level of mental investment that knowledge workers must use to plan, design, perform math calculations, or work with a computer (reading for comprehension). 
When performed in groups the subliminal detection of threat movement due to the movement of others near by supply the same movement in peripheral vision that office staff walking beside a concentrating unprotected worker does. 
When a threshold of exposure in a compact time frame is reached the same mental break happens in all those cases. 
The original publication of papers on this would have been done between about 1964 and 1968/69. Volunteers searching the APA database have been unable to separate papers about Peripheral Vision Reflexes. 
Understanding the cause allows Yogis to plan sessions to limit exposure to safe levels. Other exposure can occur in homes, dorms, classrooms, and small business offices that do not provide Cubicle Level Protection.
We all have exposure to Subliminal Distraction every day. Most of it is harmless until we engage an activity that provides the extra exposure, which will lead to the mental break. 
The noise phenomenon is "hearing voices."
If you wish to help you can reach me by clicking any email link at VisionAndPsychosis.Net.
L K Tucker 05:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned by Greyson (1993; see main article) the relationship between Kundalini-symptomatology and psychosis remains controversial. Although the presence of Kundalini-symptomatology might lead to considerable emotional and psychological distress, the research of Greyson (ibid.) implies that many of these problems have a non-pathological component, and that it is possible to differentiate kundalini from mental illness. --Hawol 16:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pathological Kundalini Awakening 

message: Reiki Tummo - Explaination about Kundalini and shakitipat technique for instant and safe Kundalini awakening 
Although the link has informational value I believe that it is best to reserve external links for academic references. Especially considering the present confusion surrounding spiritual techniques, and the post-modern interpretations of these techniques. Also, according to different spiritual traditions, and the school of transpersonal psychology, the safety of a particular kundalini or shaktipat technique depends largely on the cultural context of the technique, how well-prepared the student is, and whether the student has access to a credible teacher or guide. If these conditions are not satisfied the safety of any such technique might  be disputed. And lastly, the actual Reiki Tummo site contains commercial discourse. --Hawol 09:58, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Reiki Tummo link 

message: I have added this section because I believe it more appropriate to move links deemed inappropriate for the main article to this, the talk page, rather than deleting them entirely. Hawol, I understand your focus on the academic context, but that does not mean that non-academic links are entirely without value, particularly for people seeking opinions outside both the limited Western academic interpretations of Kundalini and the traditional Eastern interpretations. Perhaps after some discussion a separate external links section in the main article could be created for them. Ironwolf 21:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Non-academic links are not without value, I agree, but they can be problematic for the uninformed reader. Therefore I can agree with all of your main points, and I have no problems with moving problematic links to the talk page while we await a better solution. --Hawol 13:02, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, links which contain commercial language or product information will be removed from the main page. --Hawol 09:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links Moved From the Main Article 

message: One commentator (see Revision as of 15:21, 18 May 2006; now removed by another user) has implied that my reply 
to the discussion concerning Exploding head syndrome was rather pedantic, and that it can be understood to explain 
away the roaring sound feature of kundalini-symptomatology. If my reply is understood to be pedantic, then I must 
apologize for the tone, and the academic dryness, of the above reply. My intention was not to kill the topic (as the 
commentator implies) or to provide an exhaustive, or authoritative explanation, for the symptoms of kundalini. I do 
consider such accoustical phenomena to be phenomenological entities that must be taken seriously in any investigation
of Kundalini-symptomatology.--Hawol 12:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on Exploding head syndrome 

message: The section on Historial part said the first book was Hatha Yoga Pradpika. Actually Siva Sutras also mention it. Also, the first Westerner to popularise Kundalini was Sir John Woodroffe, whose books are even now read. Surprised nobody knew that.
3rdly, Kundalini in Hinduism is related to Tantra. I have already written a section on in it the Hindu portion of Tantra. Instead of copy pasting it, I have just given a link to it. Shiva bakta 10:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrected some minor stuff 

message: Just my 2 cents, a lot of the citations in this article need to be changed into Wikipedia footnotes. TheRingess 04:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikify 

message: Basically I replaced all of the citations in the article of the form (Author, Date) with footnotes.  The references are now all listed in the "Notes" section.  I think this makes the article a little easier to read.  I changed the "References" section to "Further Reading" since those listings were not actually used as references in the article. TheRingess 18:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you loook a bit closer you will see that most of the references now placed under the section called further reading are actually used as references in the article, so we should probably try to integrate them under the new footnote-section. Otherwise, nice work! --Hawol 09:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnotes and Further Reading 

message: concerning "side effects": the kundalini syndrom is commonly known among buddhists doing zen meditatio. It can be healed rapidly by taoist methods, which are explained by Mantak. The trick is to bring down the energy from the brain to the lower chakras. It's easy if u know how to. I can't find that in the article. I like Burke's Peerage 12:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mantak Chia]] 

message: User:Hawol seems to have made numerous and repeated excisions of various subjects in this article without evidencing much knowledge about the subject he is butchering.  It seems to me his excessive, if not downright obsessive, fussiness is doing the article and its readers a disservice.
i completely agree. this article has been been overly constricted and academic-ized to the point of complete lack of clarity. a look at other spiritual, 'alternative medical' and philosophical concepts entries that don't suffer this sort of deep constriction would be fruitful. the framing of kundalini within a very modern, western academic and psychological framework, which i assume is the work mostly of User Hawol, is in itself very subjective and  POV. subsections on all known interpretations and uses of the concept of kundalini should be here. i came to wikipedia looking for information on something and once again i find that overzealous editors have pretty much ruined the article...seems to be a systemic problem which, if left un-checked, will unravel wikipedia from within...bummer. 63.105.19.244 00:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What are User:Hawol's Credentials to be the dictator of this article? 

message: I have included the name/concept Kundalini Shakti in the intro since kundalini is offen known as kundalini shakti....the divine mother aspect. Chiron.main 23:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kundalini Intro 

message: Please note that when using American English, there is no such term as "Brahmans", per the article as it stands, currently. Standard spelling for the priestly caste within the Sanatana Dharma (aka "Hinduism") is "Brahmin" with an "i". This spelling helps to avoid confusion, per Brahman, the Absolute, and the distinct (and different from Brahman) "Brahma", the creator deity, who, along with Vishnu and Shiva, comprise the trinity within the Sanatana Dharma. I did not make any edits, however, not being sure if some other form of English (i.e. British English) might consider "Brahmans" to be standard spelling. If this is not the case, I would recommend changing "Brahmans" to "Brahmins", for the sake of clarity.
24.178.118.206 23:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the standard in Wikipedia is Brahmin as the priestly caste and Brahman as the thing that doesn't fit so well into words. --Calibas 05:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar 

message: Is there any reason for the confusing tag to be in the Kundalini Rising section anymore? I don't think it is confusing, but if you think so then please explain why, otherwise I will remove it within a few days. Thank you. Anton H 17:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing tag necessary? 

message: I removed the NPOV tag because I think that the article is NPOV, it presents different viewpoints without laying too much weight on any side. IMHO of course, so if you disagree feel free to re-add it and post an explanation here. Anton H 17:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I restored the tag because the problem I see in the article is that except for the opening section which mentions Hindu sources, all of the rest of the page actually presents Western New Age thinking in an uncritical manner.  Much of that material has nothing to do with the original concept.  A similar organizational problem exists on the article for Chakras which recently has at least had a few sources added which clarify that the "standard" model of 7 chakras and thinking of kundalini as some sort of physical thing is a New Age view.  Both articles need to be revised to step back from their own views and put the recent Western models into better perspective.  In attempting to add some of the Hindu citations I have noticed that some of the Western concepts are so embedded that people have difficultly accepting the original concepts, such as systems in which there different numbers of chakras or different conceptual models of what Kundalini represents.  Buddhipriya 18:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I see what you mean and I agree... Anton H 10:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed NPOV tag 

message: This article heavily violates wikipedia's policy on verifiability, pseudoscience and Undue weight. Kundalini doesn't have a shred of evidence in modern scientific peer-reviewed journals. The majority of the scientific community believes that this is a pseudoscience. 
The article is also filled with Original research, such as
"The body then becomes an effective antenna for the 7.5 Hz frequency, which is one of the resonant frequencies of the ionosphere. In layman's terms, you then pick up information from the air. This might account for repeated descriptions of heightened senses as a result of rising Kundalini, e.g. as described by Yogananda: "The whole vicinity lay bare before me. My ordinary frontal vision was now changed to a vast spherical sight, simultaneously all-perceptive. Through the back of my head I saw men strolling far down Rai Ghat Lane...""
That is a completely false scientific explanation.
59.92.50.34 11:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The part you mention above should probably be taken out. Provide references and we'll mention the modern scientific viewpoint in the article. --Calibas 03:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added totallydisputed tag 

message: I have removed the following material that is sourced by a web site that is not a WP:RS in that it cites no reliable sources.  (http://www.icrcanada.org)  The claims need to be evaluated as WP:FRINGE statements, which require some sort of WP:RS, not a web site for a particular fringe group.  Also see WP:EL which would rule out the use of this fringe web site if it were suggested in External Links.  Can someone cite a book published by a recognized academic publishing house in support of these claims?
Based on the writings of Gopi Krishna, the Institute for Consciousness Research suggests that many historical figures experienced Kundalini awakening. These include Victor Hugo, Johannes Brahms, Thomas Jefferson, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Maximilian Voloshin and Mohandas Gandhi.(referenced by: Institute for Consciousness Research 
Buddhipriya 23:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do believe this has to do with NPOV, one view is : we believe kundalini is a nice religious concept, but no more true than any other belief and never proved. An other view is, we believe kundalini is really working in the body but we didn't really care since it is not directly empirical provable, but it should be investigated. Just my two cents, I will no longer push this matter since there is no support, I also have no other sources to verify this claim, if there are people who can verify this please do. Teardrop onthefire 08:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still don't agree.  The sentence, as written, is more about the ICR and those personages than it is about kundalini.  It does not represent a view about kundalini, therefore it is neither neutral nor non-neutral about kundalini.  Here's an analogy I think is appropriate.  Wikipedia has an article about happiness. Let's say I decide to add the following line:  "Dr. So and So of the Institute for Happiness Studies, suggests that Genghis Khan was a very happy person."  Is that statement about happiness or is it about Genghis Khan?  Is it neutral/non-neutral or does the question of neutrality apply to that sentence? If the institute were real, and Dr. So and So existed, does it belong on the happiness page or on Genghis' page or neither?  Is it informative/encyclopedic?  Wouldn't I also include the statement that Genghis might not have been happy? My point is that the ICR statement, as written is too vague and does not really belong in this article. Neutrality has nothing to do with the statement as written.TheRingess (talk) 14:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Can someone cite a book published by a recognized academic publishing house in support of these claims? The web site appears to be a WP:FRINGE source and I would not support using it to cite anything except claims about the organization itself. If these claims are notable, they will have been examined by some reliable academic source.  If they are not mentioned by any reliable academic source, they are not notable and should be excluded on that basis.  It is time to raise the bar on source quality for this article. Buddhipriya 02:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of web sites that cite no reliable sources 

message: What is the reasoning behind deleting the entire further reading section? It was noted that it was deleted because there was too much spam, but why get rid of the whole section instead of just deleting the spam? There were plenty of excellent books in the section. --Calibas 00:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The further reading section is probably not necessary, given the current brevity of the article.  If those books have material that can be summarized and included in this article, then we should go ahead and include that material, using those books as references.  This article is barely more than a stub, and has too many problems right now to have a further reading section.  That's just my opinion. TheRingess (talk) 00:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the books are excellent they should be used as footnoted sources.  Items that appear in footnotes go into the References section, which is a "list of works cited".  The further reading section in articles gives a vague impression that they were somehow consulted in writing the article, which is unlikely in the case of this article which is soo poor.  Best approach is to have a bulletproof list of citation, which will create a very solid References section.  At present the article is filled with dubious material and the first step should be to purge it of anything that is marginal. Buddhipriya 00:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of further reading section 

message: I would like to add something by Samael Aun Weor, since his view on Kundalini is different on two points. 
1. He says that Kundalini only can be awakened through sexual magic, and not through simply meditating. Those who claim to have awakened it without sexual magic is confusing Kundalini with other phenomena. 
2. He says that it is not dangerous to awaken Kundalini since it only awakens according to one's moral purity and that one is helped in the process; it cannot be awakened by accident. 
What do you think? Anton H 08:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds like WP:FRINGE to me.  Why is this person's viewpoint significant? TheRingess (talk) 12:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I have read through the Fringe guideline and I guess that even though there are schools all over the world which follow his teachings and he is very well known in Spanish-speaking countries, he is probably not notable enough to be included in the article. I don't know of any author in the subject (tantra) who would be considered notable and who have written about him or his viewpoint. Why I thought that his viewpoint should have been included was that it was in contrast with the mainstream theory that Kundalini could be awakened through meditation, and I thought that it could be an interesting alternative. But I see now that Wikipedia should only reflect mainstream opinion, so... Have I understood this right? Anton H 18:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No you have not.TheRingess (talk) 20:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His material is clearly WP:FRINGE as that author is not cited by any other WP:RS that I know of.  I will object to any material sourced from weak sources of this type. Buddhipriya 00:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, if I haven't understood it right, would you care to explain what I have misunderstood? Anton H 07:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samael Aun Weor 

message: I do not think that the term kundalini should be capitalized.  It is generally not capitalized in the sources I have at hand.  Is there some basis for the recent changes that capitalized it?  Note that in cases where it is mentioned in quotations or footnotes citing sources, the capitalization or lack of it should not be changed per the original source. Buddhipriya 00:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since, at least the Hindu sources equate Kundalini with the goddess Shakti. --Calibas 01:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmmmm... most of the Indian newspapers I checked capitalize it, but some don't. --Calibas 01:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sure that there is variation in how it is done.  The issue is not what we prefer, but what usage is standard in the majority of the WP:RS that we are going to cite.  Regardless of which approach the article adopts as a standard, if a citation such as an article title or quotation is made, the capitalization and spelling need to be kept as in the original source.  If we start to watch for this in WP:RS as we go over the notes, we may find a pattern.  I am betting that the new age materials may capitalize it, but the Hindu sources will not, but that is just a guess. Buddhipriya 01:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Hindu sources don't capitalize it, there's no capital letters in Sanskrit. I'm of the opinion that we should use the same format throughout, capital or not, but I'm not going to push it if nobody agrees with me. --Calibas 05:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  capitalization of kundalini 

message: One of the footnotes currently cites the following self-published paper which seems to fail the test of WP:RS : Dr. Udo Szekulics; Mala Rao-Szekulics. The Truth About Kundalini (PDF). Retrieved on 2007-04-16. Unless some reason can be shown why this is a WP:RS I think that it should be removed, and the statement sourced by it should be removed. We need to raise the bar on reference quality. Buddhipriya 01:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one has objected to the removal of this self-published paper, so I will remove it.  It fails the tests of WP:RS and WP:EL. Buddhipriya 18:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A self-published source being used as a reference 

message: The article currently has a footnote to the following publication:  Strassman, Rick, DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences, Rochester, VT: Park Street Press, .  This sounds like quackery.  Can someone justify why this is a WP:RS?  If it cannot be defended I think it should be removed.  The reviews of the book at Amazon.com make it clear that this book is about a psychedelic drug, so I don't see how it is relevant to the article even if the book is found to be reliable on the topic of psychedelics. Buddhipriya 20:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: DMT is not a regular psychedelic but a naturally occurring chemical in the brain and has been linked to mystical experiences. The idea that it comes from the pineal gland or has anything to do with Kundalini is pure theory at this point. This reference should be removed. --Calibas 22:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am moving the disputed reference to here in case anyone wants to discuss it further:
One speculation is that the traditional practices have formalized a method for stimulating the endocrine glands to work in a different mode, causing physiological changes that facilitate altered states of consciousness. These changes are perhaps ultimately effected by stimulating the release of DMT by the pineal gland, which may be analogous to the 'pineal chakra'.Strassman, Rick, DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences, Rochester, VT: Park Street Press, 
Buddhipriya 23:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I've read Strassman's book, and it's a fun, interesting read, but it doesn't support the above statement.  Strassman speculates on the relationship between DMT and mystical experiences, but using it as a reference in this article is definitely original research and fringe material.TheRingess (talk) 15:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible quack reference? 

message: Can someone be a little more specific as to what the
tag is referring to? Seems redundant anyway with the totally disputed tag. I'm gonna remove it if nobody gives any reasons, the article already has 42 citations, more than most articles this size. Calibas 01:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags at the top of page 

message: I think that the following link might be suitable for the "External Links" section. Any thoughts? Kundalini - Psychosis or Transcendence? 71.63.18.205 20:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wont stop you, but it might be more at home in the kundalini syndrome page. If you want to work it into that article, even better. Calibas 03:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest, I just thought it was an excellent publication and wanted to share it via the "External Links". This was mostly a whim on my part and I didn't really consider spending the time on incorporating it into the article, although that's a good suggestion. I'll leave it alone. If someone else thinks it's worth incoporating into kundalini syndrome section then please feel free. Thanks for you input, Calibas. 71.63.18.205 00:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: "according to various teachings": this is too vague: mention what teachings exactly, please.  if there are "a number" of english translations, why only mention one?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.68.231 (talk) 10:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  lead needs work 

message: Is Buddha's Mucalinda same as kundalini?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by N33 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mucalinda 

message: I suggest the ideas in the section named above be put into a new section called '[Other] Eastern Interpretation' since Christianity originated in West Asia, which is still Eastern.  Also, Kundalini exoterically has nothing to do with Christianity, though esoterically it does (see the article 'Christian Mysticism and Kundalini' by Mineda J. McCleave) in ways that this section contradicts.  Also, this section implies the caduceus is Christian, but it is Hermetic.  Of course, esoterically it has to do with it, but Shekhinah (Shakti) on the tree of life has more to with Kundalini-Shakti in Judeo-Christian mysticism (Quabalah) than the caduceus, except maybe some Gnostic Christianity would use both equally.  Of course there are great similarities between the tree of life and caduceus.  I put 'citation needed' in this section because much of it seems to be opinion with some misconceptions and not of great relevance to the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dchmelik (talk • contribs) 07:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone ahead and removed the section, it was original research.TheRingess (talk) 13:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Esoteric Christianity And The Kabbalah' 

message: I have read some people had made links between the two notions/beliefs. The article should maybe look into that. 69.157.239.212 (talk)
::It seems you may not have read the rest of this page, but the article may have mentioned Holy Spirit--at least the article mentioned Judeo-Christian philosophy.  However, for the reasons I stated, TheRingess removed it.  Feel free to look at the article history, and my idea for a citation, and return and better explain and cite the information.  The article I mentioned is difficult, but another source is "The Work of The Chariot," but we should maybe really 1st use an explanation from a Hindu/Indian author, rather than Western ones.--Dchmelik (talk) 10:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy Spirit and kundalini 

message: I would like to see a citation/reference specifically for the statement "Yogis tend to attempt this alone, Tantrics in couples, both usually under the instruction of a guru."
The statement is false, and should be removed if none is provided. 
Bandawg (talk) 05:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yogis and Tantric reference 

message: I would like to add some content to this article from Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati, Yoga Publications Trust, Mungar, Bihar, India, 1984, reprinted 2003.
Rather than try to rewrite or edit the present article, I will submit some proposed content for others to read and assimilate:
Kundalini is a biological substance that exists within the framework of the body. Its awakening generates electrical impulses throughout the whole body and these impulses can be detected by modern scientific instruments and machines. KT page 12
Kundalini is the name of a sleeping dormant potential force in the human organism and it is situated at the root of the spinal column.  KT page 13
Methods of Awakening
There are ten ways of awakening kundalini:
1. By a favourable birth. KT page 37
2. By regular practice of mantra. KT page 39
3. By tapasya, performance of austerities. KT page 39
4. By use of specific herbs. KT page 41
5. By the use of raja yoga. KT page 43
6. Through pranayama. KT page 43
7. By the use of kriya yoga. KT page 44
8. By secret initiation. KT page 45
9. By awakening by the guru. KT page 46
10. By the path of self-surrender. KT page 47  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spingym (talk • contribs) 19:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kundalini Tantra 

message: You should not include the new-age teachers in the article,like Osho and Gurdjieff,it is not academic.But only in additional section,if you have to.The "new-age" become dangerous,because it is modern conceptions in the form of ancient teachings.84.109.46.142 (talk) 13:43, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. This is anti new-age POV. K2709 (talk) 17:21, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Huh? It's not academic to include current information? Do we have to wait 100 years or so to include them? This is ridiculous, Kundalini has as much, or more, to do with modern times than the past. Wikipedia isn't some dusty old textbook, it's a living encyclopedia. Who cares if historians want to live in the past, it's now and what happens now is far more important. --Calibas (talk) 15:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "new-age" 

message: Actually, it's worse than bad. The unnecessary enlargements contained in the first section alone are proof enough. I'm going to delete the tangential spiritual mumbo-jumbo where it sounds proselytizing and is manifestly unrelated to the point in question.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.106.137 (talk) 09:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  As It Stands, A Poor Article 

message: Actually, it's worse than bad. The unnecessary enlargements contained in the first section alone are proof enough. I'm going to delete the tangential spiritual mumbo-jumbo where it sounds proselytizing and is manifestly unrelated to the point in question.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.106.137 (talk) 09:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  As It Stands, A Poor Article