Talk:Saul

message: Does anyone know why the first king of the united tribes of Israel was chosen from the tribe of Benjamin. The twelve son of Jacob (Israel) and not from the tribe of Reuben. Jacob's First son?
I believe he was either chosen by Lot, or because he was very tall (not Goliath tall) and stood out from the crowd when Samuel picked him.
The tribe of Benjamin was centrally located between the north and south, and was small and politically unimportant compared to the larger tribes. The tribal leaders were used to the old order of tribal federalism, and were maybe somewhat fearful of a monarchy. A hero from the tribe of Benjamin seemed less of a possible threat (the tiny tribe of Benjamin wasn't likely to dominate the other eleven), yet at the same time the stature and charisma of Saul was deemed sufficient to lead them in war against the Philistines--and they needed that. It seems they needed a leader who could unite the people and recruit a large army from all of the tribes--but yet they were probably being cautious in their choice.Firecircle (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They chose Saul because he was God's choice when they wanted a king, and in the usual tradition of God in anointing this that is considered insignificant by humans, God's choice was of the most unimportant tribe and of one of the most unimportant men -- all according to the Bible.  All other ideas are just speculations by people who do not want to accept what the Bible claim and should only be mentioned if there are any significant scholar or a significant number of scholars that hold on to it.--KMA "HF" N (talk) 19:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  First King of Israel 

message: Saul may have been bipolar:  --Max 05:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bipolar? 

message: There's a need to distinguish the holy from the secular act, as is the customary distinction made.
--151.202.69.175 14:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[Anointment]]" vs. "[[Appointment]]" 

message: I don't particularly like the current title.  It's a weird way of disambiguating.  My preference would be to treat him as a primary subject, and have him at Saul, with the current Saul page at Saul (disambiguation), as we do for David and Solomon.  Alternately, I think he should be at Saul (king) or Saul (king of Israel). john k 14:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There is really no other "Saul" which could ever be expected to be referred to without some qualifier. Srnec 00:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does anyone disagree? john k 00:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: Just for clarification, there is no confusion or discrepancies in the Bible as to who the parents of Saul was. His lineage comes from his father, Kish. I and II Samuel clearly state that Elkanah and Hannah bore Samuel, not Saul. 
I Sam. 1:19 - 20 "And they rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before the LORD, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah: and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the LORD remembered her. Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, [saying], Because I have asked him of the LORD." 
Samuel was the priest that annointed Saul as king of Israel and is found frequently in the story of Saul, up until God had had enough of Saul's disobedience and informed him that he would not remain the king for long, because he had instructed Samuel to annoint another king. This was of course the now familiar David. It would be several years before God brought an end to Saul's reign and instated David as king.
Droverthecowdog 02:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please give a reference to where you read that Agag was a parent of Saul?  I know that Kish was the father of Saul, it is stated many times, but Agag is usually the name of the king of the Amalekites, whom Saul was supposed to kill but was let alive.  Agag was then killed by Samuel.  The evil Haman in the Book of Esther is by some traditions or interpretations said to be a descents of that Agag.  But I cannot remember that I have ever read that Agag was the name of Saul's mother. --KMA "HF" N (talk) 16:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saul the son of Agag and kish!!! 

message: The article states:
'The text explains that Jonathan and a small group of Hebrews left the Israelites and sneaked into the Philistine camp to attack them from within, without the Israelites noticing the absence; many scholars of biblical criticism regard this as simply being an editorial excuse to justify the Hebrews' initial presence among the Philistine army [citation needed]. It would appear that the Hebrews betrayed the Philistines and changed sides, the text adding that Jonathan had started attacking the Philistines from within their own camp, causing panic. When the Israelites noticed the chaos, Saul consulted the Ephod for advice, and then decided that the Israelites should join in the attack on the Philistines.'
However, verses later in 1 Samuel:14 clearly state Jonathan's intent:
- Then Jonathan said to the young man who was carrying his armor, "Come and let us cross over to the garrison of these uncircumcised; perhaps the Lord will work for us, for the Lord is not retrained to save by many or by few'. (14:6)
- But if they say, 'Come up to us', then we will go up, for the Lord has given them into our hands; and this shall be the sign to us. (14:10)
The God of the Hebrews (or the Israelites) would not work for Jonathan to be against the Israelites.Calbookaddict (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michmash and Jonathan's Defection 

message: I just changed the entire section about enmity of David to present tense because most of it already was, but I just noticed most of the rest of the article is past tense. Is Saul meant to be considered as a character in the Bible/Torah or a person in the past tense? At some points in the article it's phrased as if it suggests the former, which would mean present tense, but I think most would consider him an actual person who lived, which means it should all be past tense. Any input anyone?Dan Guan (talk) 01:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  tense? 

message: The Reference section now has two types of references. Do you think those which are unnumbered should be put in a separate section with its own title: such as "further reading" or some such? Firecircle (talk) 04:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of References 

message: fairly sure there is no such thing, this is some kind of joke. Please find correct Biblical source and change back. J, E, D, P. There is no R that I'm aware of in Biblical redaction studies.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.41.146 (talk) 22:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Republican Source?

message: Saul opposed to killing the children because he viewed it as evidence of God’s distrust in Israel’s faith and dedication to performing God’s will.  (Children were not considered worth killing by themselves but Saul was disappointed that God was afraid that Israel would fail to kill some of the men if they were told to kill only the men.)
Saul opposed the killing of the cattle because he thought he would need the cattle for an offering after killing the men, as prescribed by the Torah.  He thought that the offering would be necessary because the men to be killed were innocent.
The paragraph is trying to attribute Saul’s actions to humanitarian motives, which is an anachronism.
--Yecril (talk) 12:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merciful? 

message: The idea that the Israelites were led by a man named Jonathan is simply an ethnology - indicating that the Hebrews were a branch of Israelites (and distinct from the others), rather than that they were led by a son of the Israelite King.
I can't figure out what this means. 151.200.120.52 (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huh? 

message: An earlier version of this article gave different dates depending on the authority. The current exact dates, given without references, are probably too exact, and not verifiable without the sources. Generally, few dates of around 1000 B.C. can be given to the nearest year. JMK (talk) 08:07, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Dates of life and reign

message: Why is Samuel put in double-quotes in the Witch of Endor section? Is the New World Translation considered the definitive source for Wikipedia? This is the only translation that I know of that portrays Samuel in double-quotes.--¿3family6 contribs 01:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Witch of Endor and "Samuel" 

message: Is Saul considered a historical figure? The article doesn't touch on this question at all, merely presenting the Biblical account as fact in its leading paragraph. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 20:45, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I could find one reference that called the entire existence of the Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) into question; from what I read earlier about the origin of the biblical stories, they don't contain verified historical accounts until ca. the Babylonian captivity, 7th century BCE. The rest of the article still seems to present the biblical account as a credible source with no backing from serious history or archeology, which is reason enough for a  tag. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 00:51, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

text: Newmancbn has been blocked for nonconstructive editing, but for the record, I'll answer. There being no disproof of Saul's kingdom/kingship/existence does not mean religious texts are suddenly reliable sources for historical events. The archaeological evidence pertaining to other events/persons is purely circumstantial. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 11:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historicity 

message: "He was marvelously handsome; and the maidens who told him concerning Samuel (cf 1 Samuel 9:11-13) talked so long with him that they might observe his beauty the more (Ber. 48b)."
"To tell" is a transitive verb; it requires a direct object. In the sentence quoted, "maidens...told him", there's no thing that they told him. I'm not sure what meaning was intended; perhaps the sentence is out of context, and there was something said earlier indicating what Saul was told. Perhaps the maidens simply discussed Samuel with Saul. Funfree (talk) 08:35, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they did. "To tell" can take a prepositional phrase, as in "tell me about it". No direct object there. I'm not sure if "telling somewhere concerning something" is proper English, though. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 09:22, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: To tell

message: Saul was an Israelite king in his lifetime not a Muslim king, he was retroactively labeled a Muslim prophet in the 7th century CE, nearly 1700 years after he is thought to have lived. The historical data regarding his life is from the Tanakh, not the Qur'an. Islam did not exist at the time of Saul, and would not exist for another 1700 years, so how can its religious texts be an authentic source of information on his life? The article said the historical sources are to be found in the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an. What an absurd statement. While there are certainly scholars who dispute the veracity of the account of Saul's life in the Hebrew Bible, there is not a single scholar in the world, at least not a single secular and non-Muslim scholar, who holds that the Qur'an is even in the slightest, most remote way, a credible source of history on the life of this Hebrew king from the 10th century BCE. I will remind you the Qur'an was written in the 7th century CE, nearly 17 centuries after Saul was thought to have lived. Many extra-biblical myths regarding Saul's life are to found in the Talmud, but the article does not say the historical sources for his life are the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud. So why should it say the Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an? If any other religious texts of late origin are to be mentioned, shouldn't it be the Talmud, since Saul was a Jewish king? Or what about the New Testament since Christianity is the world's largest religion? He is mentioned in the New Testament as well, should the article say the historical sources for his life are the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament? Of course not. Why? Because the New Testament and the Talmud are not authentic historical sources for the life of this Hebrew king from the Tanakh. Neither is the Qur'an, written a full 6 centuries after the New Testament, and 4 centuries after the Mishnah. What is this great 'historical source' for the life of Saul we are to find in the Qur'an anyway? He is briefly mentioned in Sura Al Baqara by name in a total of 2 verses, where an ultra-simplified version of the Hebrew text is retold, it says: "And their prophet said unto those elders: "Behold, now Allah has raised up Saul to be your king." They said: "How can he have dominion over us when we have a better claim to dominion than he, and he has not even been given great riches?" The prophet replied: "Behold, God has exalted him above you, and endowed him abundantly with knowledge and physical perfection. And God bestows His dominion upon whom He wills: for God is infinite, all-knowing." It then goes on to give a shortened, and slightly confused, retelling of the story of Gideon and the test of the 300 soldiers, but the Qur'an conflates Saul and the 12th century Hebrew ruler Gideon into the same person, applying the story of Gideon in the Hebrew Bible to Saul. Wow, how staggeringly revealing, Muhammad truly had some amazing extra-biblical information that completely illuminates the entire life of Saul in an all new way. Lets compare this to the single mention of Saul in the New Testament, in the book of Acts it says: “After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years. After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’" This is roughly equivalent to the few half-researched verses thrown Saul's way in the glorious Qur'an. We know the authors of the New Testament and Muhammad were quoting from the Hebrew Bible regarding the life of Saul, they had no authentic extra-biblical sources. Christians and Muslims may believe their texts are divinely revealed, this however is a ruthlessly objective encyclopedia, not an interfaith dialogue and reconciliation conference. Our duty is to provide information objectively, even if that may offended the religious beliefs of some. I find it most offensive indeed, that a secular, unbiased, and non-religious encyclopedia would favor a single religious text beyond the actual sources, the original texts from antiquity, in order apparently to placate to one religious group. The Qur'an is already given its own section on Saul under 'Saul in Islam' it does not need to be falsely claimed this religious text of late origin is seen by scholars as some kind of authentic source for the life of Saul. The Qur'an is no more of an authentic source used by archeologists and scholars examining Saul's life than the Talmud is, or the New Testament, or Bahai scripture, or the Book of Mormon, or Druze texts are, I'm sorry.--Newmancbn (talk) 17:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Qur'an is not considered by secular scholars to be a credible source for the life of Saul 

message: I removed the infobox today in this dif wiht edit note: "remove infobox.  Saul is a quasi-fictional character; there are not "facts" about him we can put in an infobox.  starting a discussion on Talk".  So here it is.  We cannot present facts about Saul in exactly the same way we do about Elizabeth II or Charlemagne or even Ghengis Khan.  The lead itself says " The historicity of his kingdom has been called into question by historians"   If there were some series of infoboxes called something like "Kings in the bible" so that the context was clearly literary/religious and stated as actual history, that would be a different story.   Happy to discuss. Jytdog (talk) 09:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of ancient kings have very little evidence to support their reign, but have infoboxes on Wikipedia (I'm not saying that this automatically means Saul gets one, rather I'm merely establishing precedent). The "literary/religious" distinction as opposed to "actual history" is a false one, as "history" as we consider the term was not around then (arguably the Roman Empire is when a discipline that resembles modern history begins). Many ancient texts combine king lists, history (including what we now call mythology), and more literary-type passages together. See Yarim-Lim of Alalakh, Enlil-nadin-ahi, Ea-mukin-zeri, and Mar-biti-ahhe-iddina for examples of kings who are poorly documented yet have infoboxes.--¿3family6 contribs 13:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: hmmm I cannot disagree with you more with regard to "The "literary/religious" distinction as opposed to "actual history" is a false one".  This basically says a) history is actually not a scholarly discipline and b) Wikipedia is not a scholarly effort but we just throw whatever crap we can find in the blender and hit "spin".  That is so offensive that I have to stop writing now.  Will come back later. Jytdog (talk) 14:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not at all what I am saying. I'm saying that often, ancient texts involve multiple genres. The modern discipline of history is based off the written record, which by definition excludes literature. Ancient histories have no such standard. What this means is that you will find documents with written records and literature intertwined. Furthermore, even purely "written records" might have references to deities and mythology. This doesn't mean we should discount everything recounted in the document. As for Saul, I don't know what you find in the infobox that is very speculative or unsupported. The history given in the Hebrew texts is mostly written record - if you want to argue that most of it is fabricated, then that's fine. But that's different then claiming that it's literary in genre. Even if you discount most of the story written about him in Hebrew texts, the infobox has very basic information about his lineage, time of rule, and the like. If you notice, the infobox itself lists "possibly Gibeah" as his birth place, as this info is unclear. Finally, that historians question the existence of his kingdom is different then them questioning his very existence. If you can find that the vast majority of historians doubt that he even existed, then taking out the infobox might be a good idea.--¿3family6 contribs 20:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: am very very aware of ancient histories and their genre (did about half of a PhD in hebrew bible). so you don't have to explain that.  point is, there is zero extrabibical evidence that saul existed.  zero. (if you are aware of any extrabiblical evidence, please provide the source)  historians of ancient isreal build assumption upon assumption to posit potential dates when biblical figures (if they existed) may have been active.  historians of ancient israel keep the "subjunctiveness" of these dates and figures clear and don't slip over into speaking factually, in the indicative.  the flat factual statements in the infobox have no place in any reasonably scholarly text.  No place.  I could live with the infobox if there were more of the "possibly Gibeah" type of subjunctiveness in it (including Saul's historicity), but again, making this infobox exactly parallel to the one for Elizabeth II is ridiculous and has no place in WP.Jytdog (talk) 20:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

text: None of the "basic facts" are established using the appropriate standards, which are those of modern historiography. Odysseus doesn't have an infobox that states he was king of Ithaca, succeeding Laertes. Besides, even if Saul's existence were verified (which it isn't, at least in the given sources) but his kingship were not, then he shouldn't have the monarch infobox. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 20:47, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, , for that example. That's the type of thing I was looking for - precedents on how ancient kings for whom there is little historical evidence outside literature are treated on Wikipedia. , I'm not an expert on Biblical history. The above section, Talk:Saul#Historicity, provides a reason for why he should be treated as an historical figure. Whether the infobox is kept or not, we should be consistent and remove it from all the Israeli kings for whom there is no extra-biblical evidence.--¿3family6 contribs 22:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: i'm good with removing it from all, but this is the only one i am watching.  so - we are all agreed to delete it here? (I don't want to be hasty) Jytdog (talk) 22:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be good for some other editors besides us three to make that judgement.--¿3family6 contribs 22:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The question that I think should be answered before we agree to remove is, "is there any reason that, per current historical consensus, that the information conveyed in the infobox is historically inaccurate or not accepted as factual?"--¿3family6 contribs 23:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

text: btw Newmancbn who provided the very long answer above was active here for about three days before he was topic banned from all things religious for being a completely out of control, disruptive editor. he did not understand anything about how WP works and what he wrote is entirely discountable. Jytdog (talk) 23:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  infobox 

message: The phrase "hence the phrase" appears twice in the text of the article.  What is meant by it?  The phrase "Saul among the prophets" originates from this bible verse?  Or that one?   What does the phrase mean today, anyway?
--192.114.88.248 (talk) 13:59, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:08, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hence the phrase" 

message: , I'm not sure if this revert does what you intended. The text said "not universally accepted", which is actually a weaker claim than "not generally accepted". QVVERTYVS (hm?) 06:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Source doesn't state "generally", I read page 171.--Averysoda (talk) 07:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, "universally" is better. sorry.  most scholars accept that Saul probably existed and a few don't.  i think many details are not "generally accepted" as historical and it would be good to add something about that. Finkelstein supports that at the top of 172. Jytdog (talk) 12:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The article should mention historicity, but "The historicity of Saul's kingdom is not universally accepted.[1][3] The notion of a United Monarchy of Israel and Judah is probably a later ideological construct; statehood in Judah is thought, on the basis of archaeological evidence, to have emerged no earlier than the 8th century BCE.[1]" don´t seem to be a summary of anything in the body. How about making it a section there, like in Solomon (but shorter, at least for now)? Saul is clearly stated to be a biblical figure, so it may not be necessary to have historicity in the lead. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:13, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

text: Ooops, old discussion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I do think historicity deserves a separate section, to be summarized in the lede. I just never got round to writing a full section about this. Finkelstein discusses the matter at length, and his treatment of the subject can be used as a basis. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 08:47, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello! If you have the sources and want to expand "historicity" I support that 100%. Summary in the lead is ok too, David has it (sort of), Solomon don´t. I get the feeling that there is more written in sources about historicity of David, maybe because of the Tel Dan Stele etc. For now, I´m boldly moving the lead text to "historicity", I think it´s an improvement until there is something expanded to summarize. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:00, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Universally vs. generally accepted 

message: I'm only part way through the page, made a lot of changes for readability. Hope it meets with approval. SereneRain (talk) 01:59, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good work, thank you! – Fayenatic London 07:52, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Readability 

message: Went through the main body of the text and re-wrote it for readability. Hope it meets with approval. SereneRain (talk) 23:58, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Readability 

message: Ref recent revert. Why don't we say that Sul was king of the historical Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy), and according to the Hebre Bible the first king of Israel (direct to Land of Israel, which is a religious construct)?Maureendepresident (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Just follow what a reliable source says - any commentary on 1-2 Samuel should be ok.PiCo (talk) 09:03, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  King of Israel 

message: I propose that Talut be merged into Saul. Since they are both talking about the same person using different names in different cultures.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by CerberuS (talk • contribs) 07:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: I did this edit  and asked for input here . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:42, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: I am an Arab Christian, King Saul should not commit suicide, in fact, was King David murder! --Raif Badawi (talk) 13:04, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you're asking. According to the books of Samuel (2 Sam. 31:4) and Chronicles (2 Chron. 10:4), Saul did commit suicide. Whether he should have done so is a different issue. - Lindert (talk) 13:35, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I know the history of insider, King Saul is not committed suicide, but by King David murder! --Raif Badawi (talk) 15:07, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Were you there when it happened? What is your source for claiming that David 'murdered' Saul? - Lindert (talk) 17:28, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Suicide?

message: Since there are indications of Talut being Gideon, I propose shifting it to the article of Talut.
That is, the main information. Leo1pard (talk) 07:58, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Shift of Islamic information

message: The final paragraph of the section (1.1) House of King Saul states "The only male descendant of Saul to survive was Mephibosheth, Jonathan's lame son (2 Samuel 4:4), who was five years old at the time of his father's and grandfather's deaths. In time, he came under the protection of David (2 Samuel 9:7–13)." This contradicts the previous paragraph, which states "The Gibeonites told King David that only the death of seven of Saul's sons would compensate them for losing their livelihood after the priests at Nob were killed by Saul (2 Samuel 21:1-6).[5] David accordingly handed them Armoni, Mephibosheth, and five of Saul's grandsons (the sons of Merab and Adriel son of Barzelli)[6] to the Gibeonites, who killed them (2 Samuel 21:8–9). The Gibeonites killed all seven, and hung up their bodies at the sanctuary at Gibeah (2 Samuel 21:8-9)."
From the limited research I have done (reading verses from 2 Samuel), it seems that originally David had protected Mephibosheth, but later handed him (with six others) to the Gibeonites, who executed all seven (and the chronology of verses supports this). But the way the material is presented, the final paragraph contradicts the previous one. 
EDIT: Somehow, I missed the fact that there were two Mephibosheths! One being Saul's son, the other being Saul's grandson (son of Jonathan). I was wondering how nobody caught this "error" before! That's what happens when you try to make "corrections" in the wee hours of the morning!
73.59.111.130 (talk) 13:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death (survival?) of Mephibosheth 

message: I found this quote in the "Classical Rabbinic views" section:
In Sheol, Samuel reveals to Saul that in the next world, Saul would dwell with Samuel, which is a proof that all has been forgiven him by God (Er. 53ba).
I don't know what "Er. 53ba" means. There's no reason to abbreviate the names of books or references to such an extreme degree. This makes it difficult for people who don't know the name of every single piece of Rabbinic literature, and the References and Bibliography sections aren't really helping. It would be wonderful if somebody more knowledgeable could spell out the names of all referenced books so that it's easier to find the references. It should not be challenging to follow a reference. --Señorsnazzypants talk 05:49, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear attribution 

message: The first reference given is to a (as always very interesting) article from Israël Finklestein, where he is suggesting that the death of Saul could have happened at the time of the invasion of Pharao Shoshenq around 925 BCE. I wonder how this article has been received in the archaeological community. Anyone has anything on that?
Personally I think it is reaching a bit to far, given the fact the invasion by Shoshenq was clearly an major event that lived on in memories. It was used by the writers of the Deutorological history as a means to explain how al the wonderful wealth of Solomo had disappeared (clearly not historical, if true it would have been the major prize of this campaign and in the Egyptian report of the expedition Jeruzalem is not even mentioned as a place of interest). Also the difference between being killed by Phillistines or by Egyptians seems a bit unlikely.
 
But at a somewhat earlier point in time, say right in the middle of the 10th century, the plot might work out very well, with Phillistines still going strong and probably opposing Saul's expansion to the north, putting pressure on their trading routes from Megiddo via Bet Shean to the east. David and Saul would then have been contemporary 10th century tribal leaders of proto-kingdoms, with the early Israelite kingdom of the north somewhat later taking advantage of the power vacuum left by the Egyptian retrait after Shoshenq expedition (having destroyed many Phillistine settlements). A power struggle in this area (disrupting the important old trade route between Egypt and Mesopotamia) might even have triggered the Egyptians to move in to restore the peace.  
So a Phillistine intervention to end the expansion of Saul's proto-kingdom could all in all be historical, which would make the parts on Saul's war in the north and David's raids in the south maybe the only historical relicts between the highly fictional stories of the united kingdom of David and Solomo.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Codiv (talk • contribs) 17:20, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dating Saul's death to the 10th century Shoshenq invasion? 

message: The page when I found it claimed under the subsection 'Saul and David' that:
Saul's son Jonathan and David become close friends. Jonathan recognizes David as the rightful king, and "made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul."
I wanted to provide some more information by changing the line too:
Saul's son Jonathan and David form an immediate bond, a connection held by the Church to be completely platonic. Progressive analysts, however, point to the story of David and Jonathan as one of homosexual lovers. Jonathan recognizes David as the rightful king, and "made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul."
My edit was undone on the grounds that, "this section is for the literal meaning of the biblical narrative, not modern interpretations."
Isn't close friends an interpretation as well, just older? Is there a way to rephrase this? I think the existence of the separate Wiki page on the relationship between the two justifies the extra information given
Taurterus (talk) 04:48, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  David and Jonathon's relationship? 

message: I'm trying to keep the Kingdom of Israel infobox consistent with the text, but am reverted because of the dating of Saul, which in any case shouldn't have an exact date yet also say ". His reign, traditionally placed in the late 11th century BCE,". Doug Weller talk 12:20, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dating of [[Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy)]] vs dating of [[Saul]] 

message: :Greetings, There have been 1,302 editors and 306 watchers on what I am sure is a very visited page. If someone could take the time to visit the last five paragraphs of the "Saul and David" subsection and the first paragraph of the "Battle of Gilboa and the death of King Saul" subsection. There are unsourced sentences, paragraphs, and content added after a citation which is unsourced. 
:The beginning of the "Biblical criticism" section states, "There are several textual or narrative issues in the text, including the aforementioned conflicting accounts of Saul's rise to kingship and his death, as well as plays on words, that biblical scholars have discussed." This is unsourced and begs "which" biblical scholars. 
:The "Name" subsection contains "In explanation of the name, exegetes such as Tha'labi hold that at this time, the future King of Israel was to be recognised by his height; Samuel set up a measure, but no one in Israel reached its height except Ṭālūt (Saul)", that is unsourced. 
:These issues directly affect the B-class criteria #1. Thank,  --  Otr500 (talk) 20:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced content 

message: "The historicity of Saul's kingdom is not universally accepted" [Ref: ] - But Finkelstein supports his historicity: "I believe that the evidence resulting from these four considerations proves the Saulide regime to be historical in its main framework, though not necessarily in details" (Finkelstein 172) - Eroica (talk) 07:39, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finkelstein on the Historicity of Saul 

message: If Saul isn't known for sure to be historical, why the infobox with the exact dates, etc? Yo bailaba (talk) 13:00, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Solid point. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the infobox 

message: We should be on the clear on this issue by now, and significant article such as this should be edited by following WP:LEADIMAGE as explained in WP:PORTRAIT. ౪ Santa ౪99° 08:35, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a long-standing consensus to include an image in the infobox in this article. StAnselm (talk) 19:20, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Follow clear guidelines