Talk:Rosalind Franklin/Archive 1

message: Watson and Crick stole Franklin's work, at least according to the witnesses that PBS's Nova interviewed. The entry should say more in that direction, if PBS is to be believed.
"Without her knowledge, another Randall research associate, Maurice Wilkins, showed some of her X-ray diffraction photographs of DNA to James D. Watson, whereupon Watson, with Francis Crick, succeeded in determining the molecule's structure, and published in Nature magazine on April 25, 1953 an article describing the double-helical structure of DNA. Articles by Wilkins and Franklin illuminating their X-ray diffraction data supporting the findings of Watson and Crick were published in the same issue."
Not enough. If PBS is to be believed.
In fact, (again, if PBS's Lynne Osman Elkin is to be believed):
1. Despite the urging of Wilkins, W + C kept putting the hydophobic bases on the outside.
2. Wilkins even had to help W + C interpret stolen information.
3. W + C stole the Franklin's MRC report too, at which point W + C finally gave in to Wilkins' urging and put the hydrophobic bases on the inside.
Don't take my word for it. Take PBS's Lynne Osman Elkin's word.
According to Brenda Maddox it was Crick who suggested that they try the phosphate on the outside (although Rosalind Franklin had told them this when she spotted the error in their previous model). Watson's reaction was that it was too easy (too many possibilities with the phosphates on the outside), Crick suggested trying anyway. Wilkins also told them the dimensions of one full turn of the helix (34.4 Å) and showed Watson the famous photograph No.51. Crick and Watson got hold of a copy of the MRC report, but it was not stolen, it was not private or confidential, though it was really only meant as an internal report to the funding body, so they could check their money wasn't being wasted. Crick and Watson got important information about the type of space group (fundemental unit) the crystal was composed of from the report, and worked out from this that the two strands run counter to each other. I think it more accurate to say that they were more like confidence tricksters than thieves. They provided a shoulder to cry on for Maurice Wilkins, who then rather naively gave more information to them than was wise. Of course anyone with any integrity would not have exploited the situation in the shameless way Crick and Watson did. Of course Wilkins was also amply rewarded for his duplicity, sharing in the Nobel prize.--Alun 18:35, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Watson and Crick stole Franklin's work. 

message: The BBC film 'Life Story' (1985/7, starring Juliet Stephenson) was a detailed and sympathetic exploration of Rosalind Franklin's role in the discovery of the DNA structure. My recollection is that in the film Franklin plays an important role in correcting a significant cock-up in the first version of the Watson-Crick  model (not enough H2O groups?  or is this a convenient film-simplification of the hydrophobic groups issue mentioned earlier as being raised with W+C by Wilkins?). Linuxlad 12:03, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Crick and Watson's first attempt at a model was wrong. They invited the King's team to Cambridge to see it as a courtesy. Rosalind Franklin took one look and said that the phosphates should be on the outside, or it wouldn't be able to hydrate. Franklin was a chemist  and spotted the mistake immediately. Interestingly the Linus Pauling model made the same mistake early in 1953. Crick and Watson continued to try to put the bases on the outside, ignoring the advice of someone with far more chemistry. So the BBC drama was accurate.--Alun 18:16, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Life Story

message: This page, at the moment, puts far too much emphasis on the DNA part of Dr. Franklin's career. For example in the text DNA is discovered in 1953, then Dr Franklin dies in 1958, so we are lead to believe that she made no meaningful contributions to science after this date. She worked on DNA for 2 years in a career spanning from 1943-1958. I think more emphasis should be placed on her world class contributions to the studies of coal/charcoal/carbon and her later studies of plant viruses. Here's a woman who acheived excellent discoveries in three scientific fields, but who only seems to be remembered as someone who nearly discovered the structure of DNA, or as someone who had their results plagierised. A lot of this page also seems to be a justification for the way Crick and Watson manipulated information from other peoples hard work which allowed them the time to formulate their model. I removed the comment that Crick and Watson's model was largely their own work as it is self evident that the model could not have been built at all without access to the King's MRC report (which showed Crick and Watson that the chains were antiparellel), Franklin's photograph 51 (which proved a helix for 'B' DNA), Jerry Donohue's comment about keto- and enol- forms (see above) or Dr. Maurice Wilkins' loose tongue. This page is also not the place to make a defence of Crick and Watson, make that on their own pages please, this is about Dr Rosalind Franklin and not about them. I think I'm going to try and find some time to extensively edit this page over the next few weeks.--Alun 10:17, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Too DNA centred

message: The recent additions are welcome but the article is in danger of getting POV and also speculative. I don't think we should have sympathetic asides on her politics for example, unless it is either known fact or _directly_ relevant to what she did. Most people will come to the article for the DNA connection. Clearly we need her other work referred to, but this is not a festschrift (sp?). We all know many university professors who produced a considerable body of fine work but who do not have (and may never have) an entry in WP. Linuxlad 10:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Getting POV??

message: Do we really need the full text of that Royal Society attribution?  It seems from my cursory readthrough that it duplicates much of the information of the article itself.  Perhaps if it exists on the web on the Royal Society pages then a link to it would be more appropriate?  I don't want to diminish any honors due to Franklin, but it just seems redundant to me.  --Syrthiss 12:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Syrthiss. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, I don't think it is the purpose of an encyclopedia to reproduce obituaries. I think friendship between Aaron Klug and Rosalind Franklin is not relevant in deciding if this is an appropriate place to put an obituary. The question Syrthiss is asking is perfectly reasonable and not at all stupid. Personally I think that if you want to put a reference to the Royal Society in the Recognition section, then you can do so without including the whole obituary. The person who removed the reference to the Royal Society was 195.92.168.168, who was also the person who added the obituary in the first place, see the history tab at the top of the page. I think this needs to be removed.
*Martin, you can sign your name by using four tildes (~), assuming you have an account Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Also this sort of post is close to a personal attack, and you are certainly not assuming good faith. Have a look at these wikipedia policy and guideline pages Wikipedia:No personal attacks,Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, and Wikipedia:Assume good faith.Alun 20:35, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Martin, This information is still irrelevant. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an archive. It doesn't matter where the obituary comes from, who wrote it, wheather they knew RF personally or even if they were in her will. Can you give a proper reason for inclusion of an obituary in an encyclopedia article? At the moment all you are giving is personal opinion. It is is not usual practice to include obituaries in biographical articles on Wiki as far as I know.Alun 05:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Heavy handed?  Thats interesting commentary from the person who said that my polite question was STUPID. --Syrthiss 23:04, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

text: One other thing Martin. You must consider copyright when including text written by other people. It is not permissible just to include any text you find and consider relevant, there may be ownership and usage issues. The obituary may still get deleted from wikisource if it is deemed in breach of copyright by someone.Alun 05:18, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Royal Society Attribution? 

message: What's with the weird dates:
"25th of July, 1920 - 16th of April, 1958"?
Why not just July 25, 1920 - April 16, 1958 like virtually every other bio article on Wikipedia? I think it looks stupid the way it is now. Ben davison 16:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: These dates are not weird, they just aren't written in an American way. You are displaying systemic bias. This is how dates are written in the UK. You have the right to think it looks stupid, but bear in mind that this is an opinion and others will disagree. I have changed them to conform to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)Alun 19:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dates

message: Substituted at 20:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment