Talk:Names of Jerusalem

message: Removed Cudsembarie or whatever it said. There is no such name. That word structure isn't even Turkish.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.142.205.220 (talk) 20:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: A few 19th century writers transliterated the Turkish name as Coudsheriff (Kudüs şerif?) or Cudsembaric (Kudüs mübarek?) --ארינמל (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkish name

message: === TNK,Bible,OT,etc. ===
Instead of using a multitude of terms, why not just use the term "bible"? It's the most nuetral, and most commonly used, term.--Yoshiah ap 21:59, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I considered that too.  But I realized that "Bible" means different things for different religions.  To Samaritans, it's the first five books.  To Jews, it's what makes up the Tanakh.  To Christians, it includes the Tanakh along with the New Testament.  But if I say "Book of Genesis", no one is too confused. :) Either someone knows what it is and knows what I'm talking about, or they don't know what it is and have no clue about most of these words anyway. :) - Gilgamesh 01:56, 17 June 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, there aren't that many Samaritans, let alone Samaritans that surf English websites. I think an honest estimate would be 10 Samaritans check out English websites reguarly. Jews recognize when someone says "The Bible", they are generally talking about the Christian Bible. The word "Tanakh" is used excuslively when speaking of a Jewish Bible, and the phrase "Old Testament" to refer to a Christian translation of the bible.--Yoshiah ap 03:33, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There might indeed be only ten Samaritans that check English pages but that does not mean we can ignore them. I think Wikipedia, being an international effort, must avoid anything that can cause cross-cultural confusion. It is best to stick to specific terms, rather than using ambiguous terms. Just saying 'Bible' is confusing for Turks too, as they would mostly assume that what's being referred to is the New Testament but sometimes it is used for OT plus NT. Let's not confuse people :) -- EnginGunduz 16:37, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I think that distinction goes to Bethlehem. - Gilgamesh 02:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: It would have been easier to answer the first question before I returned 10-12 books on the subject to the library a few months ago...  The Jewish Encyclopedia lists Phenoecian and Egyptian appearances, and I know there are South Arabian and Mandaic appearances but I can't give a reference immediately.  Shalim's twin Shahar has even many more appearances (dozens).  The Armana letters are also taken as an appearance by almost everyone.  I can find a modern source if you ask (it would take a few days).  As for the Armana letters, the issue is not whether the letters can also spell "peace" (I recall "safety", which is similar) but whether that is seen as a reasonable translation in context by the Amarna experts.  I do not recall seeing that even once even though I looked in a large number of journal articles and texts.  I might have forgotten some, but I'm quite certain that the consensus is that it refers to the god.  I'm also certain that the consensus on the "salem" of "Jerusalem" is that it refers to the god.  We should not be making our own arguments here but rather quoting named scholars.  --12:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Jewish Encyclopedia article is badly dated, its suggests "City of Shalim" and then says compare with the Assyrian god Shalman, mentioned in Egyptian as Sharamana etc etc. This doesn't make sense, the Ugaritic "Shalim" means "dusk/sunset" and he was the counterpart of Shahar (dawn). Shalman on the other hand was the Assyrian god of peace. Perhaps ultimately the words are related both coming from an original root sh-l-m meaning "complete" but Ugaritic Shalim is not the same deity as Assyrian Shalman nor do they represent the same concept. Also, don't confuse the god Sahar (s-h-r) Arabian god of the crescent moon with Shahar (sh-ch-r) Ugaritic god of dawn, the names are unrelated but happen to look similar in English transliteration. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article should reflect what the consensus is among relevant modern scholars.  Are you going to quote any?  --Zero 11:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure there is a consenus. What I have been taught is that the explanation involving "yerush-" + "shalem" is considered the most plausible, where shalem is simply the original name denoting peace. I don't know of any academic references to the god Shalim outside Ugarit (as opposed to Assyrian Shalman obviously found in any text mentioning the emporer Shalmaneser whose name contains it). Kuratowski's Ghost 14:19, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Ir Ha-Qodesh means "City of the Holiness", Ir Ha-Qedoshah is the "The Holy City", Qedoshah being the feminine adjective. This is what the article originally had but someone changed it to the odd Qdoosha nonsense and everyone was too lazy to change back. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Deriving "Jerusalem" from the god Shalem is not an old crank idea at all, but the consensus of modern specialists.  I know this because I spent several days in a university library looking at the journal literature and recent research texts. This issue will come back, with sources...  Zerotalk 05:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Might be useful to list them in the article and expand on them. Amoruso (talk) 09:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Interesting. Leo1pard (talk) 08:11, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names from [[Shaam]]i languages 

message: Instead of using a multitude of terms, why not just use the term "bible"? It's the most nuetral, and most commonly used, term.--Yoshiah ap 21:59, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I considered that too.  But I realized that "Bible" means different things for different religions.  To Samaritans, it's the first five books.  To Jews, it's what makes up the Tanakh.  To Christians, it includes the Tanakh along with the New Testament.  But if I say "Book of Genesis", no one is too confused. :) Either someone knows what it is and knows what I'm talking about, or they don't know what it is and have no clue about most of these words anyway. :) - Gilgamesh 01:56, 17 June 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, there aren't that many Samaritans, let alone Samaritans that surf English websites. I think an honest estimate would be 10 Samaritans check out English websites reguarly. Jews recognize when someone says "The Bible", they are generally talking about the Christian Bible. The word "Tanakh" is used excuslively when speaking of a Jewish Bible, and the phrase "Old Testament" to refer to a Christian translation of the bible.--Yoshiah ap 03:33, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There might indeed be only ten Samaritans that check English pages but that does not mean we can ignore them. I think Wikipedia, being an international effort, must avoid anything that can cause cross-cultural confusion. It is best to stick to specific terms, rather than using ambiguous terms. Just saying 'Bible' is confusing for Turks too, as they would mostly assume that what's being referred to is the New Testament but sometimes it is used for OT plus NT. Let's not confuse people :) -- EnginGunduz 16:37, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I think that distinction goes to Bethlehem. - Gilgamesh 02:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  TNK,Bible,OT,etc. 

message: From what I know of Aramaic's methods of adapting loanwords, I find it difficult to believe that this particular title would have entered Aramaic in a form that could generate "al-quds" any more than it could have entered Arabic in that way. Can you cite a reference in support of this claim? - Mustafaa 02:12, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References for Ha-Qedosha? 

message: I see Gilgamesh has replaced the pronounceable names with direct transliterations of Hebrew spelling? I don't see how this is useful to anyone, surely proper words that can be pronounced make more sense than this? Also do we need this Tiberian vs Standard Hebrew stuff? Kuratowski's Ghost 15:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew spelling transliterations instead of pronounceable name? 

message: *We agreed that Ir Ha-Qedoshah "The Holy City" is different to Al Quds / (Ir) Ha-Qodesh "(City of) the Holiness/Holy Place", so it should be listed as a separate name.
*City of David is indeed used for Jerusalem so we need it as well.
Kuratowski's Ghost 15:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  More names 

message: My addition that the god Shalim is not mentioned outside Ugarit as well as my statement that the name in the Amarna letters is identical to the word used for peace were commented out by Zero0000. Can you give a reference for Shalim outside Ugarit? As for the meaning in the Amarna letters, I am looking for a good online copy of the text as a reference. Kuratowski's Ghost 10:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would have been easier to answer the first question before I returned 10-12 books on the subject to the library a few months ago...  The Jewish Encyclopedia lists Phenoecian and Egyptian appearances, and I know there are South Arabian and Mandaic appearances but I can't give a reference immediately.  Shalim's twin Shahar has even many more appearances (dozens).  The Armana letters are also taken as an appearance by almost everyone.  I can find a modern source if you ask (it would take a few days).  As for the Armana letters, the issue is not whether the letters can also spell "peace" (I recall "safety", which is similar) but whether that is seen as a reasonable translation in context by the Amarna experts.  I do not recall seeing that even once even though I looked in a large number of journal articles and texts.  I might have forgotten some, but I'm quite certain that the consensus is that it refers to the god.  I'm also certain that the consensus on the "salem" of "Jerusalem" is that it refers to the god.  We should not be making our own arguments here but rather quoting named scholars.  --12:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Jewish Encyclopedia article is badly dated, its suggests "City of Shalim" and then says compare with the Assyrian god Shalman, mentioned in Egyptian as Sharamana etc etc. This doesn't make sense, the Ugaritic "Shalim" means "dusk/sunset" and he was the counterpart of Shahar (dawn). Shalman on the other hand was the Assyrian god of peace. Perhaps ultimately the words are related both coming from an original root sh-l-m meaning "complete" but Ugaritic Shalim is not the same deity as Assyrian Shalman nor do they represent the same concept. Also, don't confuse the god Sahar (s-h-r) Arabian god of the crescent moon with Shahar (sh-ch-r) Ugaritic god of dawn, the names are unrelated but happen to look similar in English transliteration. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article should reflect what the consensus is among relevant modern scholars.  Are you going to quote any?  --Zero 11:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure there is a consenus. What I have been taught is that the explanation involving "yerush-" + "shalem" is considered the most plausible, where shalem is simply the original name denoting peace. I don't know of any academic references to the god Shalim outside Ugarit (as opposed to Assyrian Shalman obviously found in any text mentioning the emporer Shalmaneser whose name contains it). Kuratowski's Ghost 14:19, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shalim outside Ugarit? 

message: The Bible calls the place Y-h-w-h yir'eh. (The apostrophe is a glottal stop, spelt as an aleph) I know that modern Jewish custom orders Adonai ( 'aðōnay) to be said instead; but this rule arose long after the time of Abraham. Anthony Appleyard 16:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jehovah-jireh , Yahweh-yir'eh, Adonai-jireh 

message: In Hebrew, both Qodesh and Q'dushah mean holiness, while the prior may also denote a holy place, whilst the latter refers more to the state of separation from impurity. I'm not sure what is meant by Ir haQdoosha - Ir (city) is feminine, therefore "Holy City" would be Ir Q'doshah would refer to the city, but Ir haQ'dushah would mean "The City of Holiness". Personally, I have not heard the latter expression, while in religious cirles Jerusalem is always called ירושלים עיה"ק "Yerushalaim Ir haQodesh", which is usually translated as The Holy City of Jerusalem, and "Jerusalem, City of Holiness" which is the literal translation.
:Ir Ha-Qodesh means "City of the Holiness", Ir Ha-Qedoshah is the "The Holy City", Qedoshah being the feminine adjective. This is what the article originally had but someone changed it to the odd Qdoosha nonsense and everyone was too lazy to change back. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is meant by Ir haQdoosha 

message: [Discussion transferred from User talk:Kuratowski's Ghost]
You censored my addition regarding the possible Canaanite origin of the word Shalem. This seems extreme to me, considering that the idea already existed in the article (as well as in the Hebrew Wiki) and I was merely adding other Biblical examples (all from other Wikipedia articles). Why is the theory okay for Beit Shemesh (see Wiki for Bet Shemesh) but forbidden for Jerusalem? Even if you have somehow disproved this theory (which I doubt), I think it should at least be mentioned, and you may freely add your rebuttal or criticisms. What happened to freedom of thought? Wouldn't you say blanket censorship of this sort is paternalistic? Why not let the reader judge for himself Yabti, from Jerusalem
Its a old crank idea that was criticized and rejected long ago. Shalim together with Shachar were Ugaritic minor gods representing dusk and dawn and were always invoked together. No mention of these minor gods is found outside Ugarit and moreover the root sh-l-m did not carry the same meaning outside Ugarit. As a rejected idea from modernist pseudo-scholarship it doesn't deserve mention. Moreover the name of the city is not Beth Shalim which is what one would get if it was derived this way. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Deriving "Jerusalem" from the god Shalem is not an old crank idea at all, but the consensus of modern specialists.  I know this because I spent several days in a university library looking at the journal literature and recent research texts. This issue will come back, with sources...  Zerotalk 05:49, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Shalem" - Possible Canaanite Origin 

message: al-Balāṭ, a rare poetic name for Jerusalem, from Latin palatium "palace".
This is not necessarily correct. In Arabic, balāṭ literally refers to a flat paving stone, and thus idiomatically a path or road. al-Balāṭ would be trivially translated as "the path". In this case it probably refers to a "path of holiness". --76.217.92.82 20:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  etymology of al-Balat 

message: Zion isn't mentioned here. It is one of the most used names in the Bible I can find.
Should it be added? LOOKIE MILK! (talk) 23:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zion? 

message: I remember the article used to list more names.  The list compiled that I referenced include the following names in Judaism:
אבן מעמסה , אפרתה , אריאל , ארמון , אשת נעורים , בית תפלה , במות , בעולה , בשן , בתולה , גבעת הלבונה , גולה , גיא חזון , גילה , גלעד , גן אלהים , דלתות העמים , דרום , דרושה , הר גבוה , הר המור , הר מועד , הר הקודש , הר מרום ישראל , חדרך , חפצי בה , טבור הארץ , יבוס , ידידות , ה ' יראה , ה ' שמה , ים , יער הנגב , יפה נוף , ירושלם , ירכתי צפון , כלה , כלילת יופי , כיסא ה ', כרמל , לבנון , מגדל עדר , מוראה , מוריה , מנוחה , מצודה , מקדשים , מרום , משוש כל הארץ , נחלה , סורה , עדן , עיר דוד , עיר היונה , עיר הצדק , עיר ה ', עיר לא נעזבה , עיר שחוברה לה יחדו , עקרה , ציון , קריית מלך רם , רבתי בגויים , רבתי עם , רחל , רמה , שגל , שדה יער , שלם , שרתי במדינות , שם חדש אשר פי ה ' יקבנו .
:Might be useful to list them in the article and expand on them. Amoruso (talk) 09:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  72 names in Jewish scripture 

message: This article doesn't say what bibilical scholars / etymologists sugggest the etymology of 'Jerusalem' is. This is the reason I came to the article, so it was a bit of a dissapointment. Tibetologist (talk) 08:28, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology of Jerusalem 

message: The limestone inscription in the mosque of Omar in Bayt Nuba also refers to Jerusalem (or possibly the Dome of the Rock) by this name. The inscription reads: “بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم، هذه الضيعة نوبا بحدودها وأطرافها وقف على صخرة بيت المقدس والمسجد الأقصى اوقفها أمير المؤمنين عمر ابن الخطاب لوجه الله تعالى” --ארינמל (talk) 23:32, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. Leo1pard (talk) 08:11, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bayt al-Maqdis 

message: I have removed the section claiming that celestis was a title for Jerusalem:
:In a drawing discovered beneath the ruins of King Solomon's temple, Jerusalem is referred to as Celestis.(ref)Rand Flem-Ath and Colin Wilson, The Atlantis Blueprint, (/ref)
I have removed it because:
*Its anglicised latin; latin would be caelestis. English (and Anglicised latin) isnt a classical language
*Latin is an odd language to be used in this way by people who view the romans as a destructive force to be fought (cf First Jewish Revolt etc).
*The Temple of Solomon, has, as far as I am aware, never been found; indeed its very location is a matter of controversy. How anything could have been found under ruins that have never themselves been found needs quite a bit of justification.
*The reference supporting it is a piece of scatter-gun pseudoscience (according to numerous reviewers) seeking to prove a thesis concerning Atlantis.
In essence, I feel that the claim is extremely dubious, the source for the assertion even more dubious, and essentially backed up by virtually no-one.
I will be happy to add it back in if someone can produce a reputable source for the assertion. --User talk:FDuffy 15:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sky 

message: We have: "The Greek form Hierousalēm with the rough breathing (h sound) not derived directly from the Hebrew pronunciation, indicates a reinterpretation of the first syllables as the Greek hiero meaning holy." and for this we have a citation "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume" by Kittel et al.  However, that source does not support the text.  What it says is "For Jerusalem the LXX has Ieorusalēm (hē is the article), but the form Hierosólyma also occurs and Hellenistic Jews prefer it because it echoes hierós."  This is not the same thing at all.  It doesn't indicate this as the origin of the form but only that it is preferred because it is similar to something.  So a reference is still required.  According to Smith's book "Jerusalem" (Vol I, p260): "In the Septuagint and the citation of Josephus from Clearchus the light breathing should probably be prefixed to Ierousalem; but in any case the rough breathing came early into use : Hierousalem.  This may have been originally due to the effort to express the consonantal force of the first letter; but more probably arose from--and was at least confirmed by--the fashion prevalent in Western Asia from the third and second centuries B.C., of Hellenising proper names."  On the same page Smith also calls Hierosolyma the Hellenised form.  Smith's book is quite old (1908) but Kittel's work is not recent either (Kittel died in 1948). Zerotalk 05:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek form 

message: Problematic text:
: In the Amarna letters, Urušalim (URUšalimum) is used for Jerusalem and is recognized as being a cognate of Hebrew Ir Shalem - city of Salem. In the language of the Amarna letters, the term šalim has the meaning of "peace". The letters thus corroborated the traditional understanding of the name and overturned earlier speculation amongst scholars that attempted to link the name Salem to the name of a god of dusk Shalim found in Ugaritic writings.
This carries no citation and is wrong and/or fringe. In fact Urušalim does not appear as  URUšalimum in the Amarna letters (here URU is a determinative that indicates a city name is following).  It appears either as URUurušalim or as urušalim without a determinative.  The statement "cognate of Hebrew 'Ir Shalem' - city of Salem" might be true in some sense but it is misleading given that the Amarna letters long predated the Hebrew language.  The rest of it ("peace" etc) is entirely contrary to mainstream scholarly opinion, which supports the connection to the god Shalim over other alternatives.  Zerotalk 07:28, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amarna letters 

message: There is currently a request for comments open about the lead section of the Jerusalem article, and all editors are welcome to give their opinions. The dispute over the lead section is one of the oldest on Wikipedia, dating back to 2003, and focuses on whether or not it is neutral to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The discussion was mandated by the Arbitration Committee, and its result will be binding for three years. The discussion is located at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jerusalem, and will be open until 22 June 2013 (UTC). — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 13:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jerusalem lead RfC 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Leo1pard (talk) 08:11, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page views 

message: I removed a claim that Beth-Shalem appears in the Amarna letters, for the following reasons: (1) although it does appear in the source, the source fails to mention the consensus on urusalim nor any other checkable information, making its reliability dubious; (2) I checked several academic articles specifically on Jerusalem in the Amarna letters and Beth-Shalem is not mentioned at all; (3) This source explains that Beth-Shalem is J. Lewy's 1940 attempted reconstruction of an ancient name, based on the (challenged) appearance of Beth-Shalem somewhere other than the Amarna letters. Zerotalk 03:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beth-Shalem 

message: Moved over here from the article the following:
:Similarly [to the Greek Hierosolyma, "holy..."] the Old Norse form Jorsalir (plural; genitive Jorsala) exhibits a re-interpretation of the second element as -salir, denoting a hall or temple, common in Old Norse toponyms.
An Old Norse-related sentence in the middle of the Greek-related paragraph, with a dead link as a source and presented in a weird form (source in the middle of the sentence; suggests that it only covers the name as such, while the commentary is the work of the editor[s]) is not acceptable. The language of the source isn't indicated, the title is not translated, no access date, nothing. I have no idea what the source is supposed to be beyond the website's name, which might or might not be connected to Johan Ludvig Runeberg. Shame, maybe there was something interesting there.
From the edit history: the etymology of Jorsalir was introduced by a once very active former editor (here, on17 April 2005):
:The Old Norse form Jorsala indicates an interpretation of the last syllables as the Old Norse toponym ending -sala denoting a hall (sometimes a temple hall).
Another (anonymous) editor, , who only edited in 2019-20, added the source in the middle of it on 26 January 2020, and then changed -sala to -salir.
This all looks possibly legit and interesting, but is hard to keep in the article w/o a proper source as some minimal way to check that what's written there has any base in reliable research. Once it's been sorted out, I'd be happy to have it back in, in a place of its own. Arminden (talk) 17:43, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Norse 

message: Like the Hebrew articlehttps://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D#%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA and the Arabic Jerusalem articlehttps://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B3 this article should mention أورشليم القدس Ūršalīm-al-Quds used by the Israeli Governmenthttps://www.gov.il/ar/departments/bureaus/licence-bureau-jerusalemhttps://www.taasuka.gov.il/ar/About/EmploymentOffices/pages/jerusalem.aspx, Jerusalem Municipalityhttps://www.jerusalem.muni.il/ar/search?q=%D8%A3%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%B4%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%85%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B3, and other organisationshttps://jerusalemfoundation.org/ar/%D9%85%D8%A4%D8%B3%D8%B3%D8%A9-%D8%B5%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%82-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B3-%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%AC%D9%87%D9%8A%D9%86-%D9%86%D8%AD%D9%88-%D8%A3%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%B4%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%85-%D8%A7/https://jerusaleminstitute.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/PUB-2020-%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%A0%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9A-%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA.pdf in publications road signshttp://worldofsigns.com/signs/2649/jerusalem/ and on tv and radiohttps://www.makan.org.il/item/?itemid=125984. Mcljlm (talk) 05:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israeli name in Arabic