Template talk:Sonic the Hedgehog/Archive 1

message: I'm sorry but this has to be discussed. The new template, as revised by users TBH and Shadow Hog, is just too big. It's clogged up with all sorts of naming and headings which I reckon are supposed to be useful but, in my opinion, confuse the table. Just compare the size of the new table with that of the old one. At least that one used breaks (for starters). Please add your thoughts to this discussion. --Steerpike 00:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are bigger ones, but yes, it is getting out of hand. I prefer the reverted layout (organising the games by type) over the one that arranges them by system. Template:Zelda series uses a show/hide option on the whole tamplate; I'm not sure how to implement it, but perhaps it could be used to hide some of the links to the less notable games? Maybe only have the first three sections (Sonic series, 8-bit series and New handheld series) visible by default - clicking on a "show more" option would then expand the other sections. --Nick RTalk 01:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

text: first of all, the template style used is big in itself. what about this template I designed? (below) --Phil 17:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

text: here is a new one that has the hide function.
Sonic the Hedgehog series
Genesis/CD/32X    	Sonic the Hedgehog | 2 | CD | 3 | & Knuckles | Spinball | Mean Bean Machine | Chaotix | 3D
Game Gear         	Sonic the Hedgehog | 2 | Chaos | Triple Trouble | Blast | Labyrinth | Drift | Drift 2 | Tails Adventures | Tails' Skypatrol | Mean Bean Machine | Spinball
Saturn - Dreamcast	R | Adventure/DX | Adventure 2/Battle | Shuffle
Multiplatform     	Heroes | Shadow the Hedgehog | Riders | Sonic (2006)
Non-Sega Handhelds	Pocket Adventure | Advance/N | Advance 2 | Advance 3 | Rush | Pinball Party | Battle
Arcade            	the Fighters | SegaSonic the Hedgehog
Non-continuity    	Schoolhouse | Music Maker | Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car | SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter
Compilations      	Classics | Jam | S&K Collection | Mega Collection/Plus | Gems
Cancelled titles  	Crackers | X-treme
  
--Phil 00:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes as of January 2006 

message: It definitely should be shortened or split up. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too darn big. 

message: Sonic Shuffle is missing from this template. I'm not sure what order the spinoffs section is presented in, so I didn't want to just throw it in there. - 211.28.82.103 06:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's at least vaguely in order of release date. That's how I've added it! :) --Nick R 19:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sonic Shuffle

message: As explained in Template talk:FinalFantasy series#Italics in titles discussion:
There is currently a discussion re: italics in titles at Wikipedia_talk:Manual of Style (titles)#Italic_in_templates. Anyone with an interest in this should participate in the discussion there. Thanks! —Locke Cole
--Nick R 20:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Italics in titles discussion

message: Why isn't Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine on this template?  -- ChessManXI 09:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine 

message: those games are children's sonic spinoffs. if we keep those, why not add Sonic's Schoolhouse or Tails and the Music Maker? --Phil 13:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's a good point, and if they're not already on the list, they should be. ;P --Shadow Hog 21:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

text: my point is, they are not part of any sonic continuity, but hey, who's counting, right? don't forget CR Sonic, Sonic & Tails Spinner, Sonic Golf, Nakayoshi Chao or Sonic Hopping --Phil 14:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  waku waku/cosmo fighter 

message: I've seen it first in the Template:Final Fantasy series... why not reduce the number of times the word "Sonic" is repeated? I've already started... igordebraga ≠ 17:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Repetition

message: Should the entry for Drift be changed to "Drift 1 and 2", or even listed twice, and the article split, becuase they are two completley separate games (1, and sequel, 2). Shall i also move it to the 8-bit section, or is it in "Spin-offs" because it was not made by Sonic Team?
Raccoon Fox 21:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Sonic Drift]] 

message: I've added Sonic Wildfire to the template under spin-offs as the game was only just announced, and therefore we do not know how it fits in the Sonic Universe. This brings me to me next point; I personally consider Shadow the Hedgehog as the continuation of the main Sonic series (Sonic Adventure 1/2, and Heroes), so I think it should be in the main game series. What does everyone else think. -- VederJuda 21:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Shadow the Hedgehog'' and ''Sonic Wildfire''

message: I added that space because without it, the template often gets squeezed together with the last line of "External links". It just looks bad. I've tried to fix it "in-article" by adding a double space between the last external link and the template but people keep reverting it back! Some discussion on this matter please. --Steerpike 13:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The space 

message: I've added Flicky to the spin-offs. Reply if you have a problem with that. Flicky appears in many Sonic games, not to mention the template Template:Sonic so I think her game deserves mention here. Kidburla2002 18:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flicky 

message: It's a major part of the series. I've added it next to Sonic 2 in parentheses. Tom Temprotran 00:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sonic 2 Beta 

message: Why?  If it fits into any other series, it's not a spinoff.  Advance 3 implies a connection to Battle, but it's not really part of the series, is it?  I don't know, but it definately doesn't belong in both places at once.  -21:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle's listed twice 

message: Someone just completely changed the template and even added an "Adventure subseries" category. I think it's time for a new template. This one has gotten way out of hand, as if we didn't have enough trouble deciding if Shadow is a "main game". Isn't the concept of a "main game" a little dubious anyway? It's a category so opinionated you might as well make a category for "Good Sonic games" and "Bad Sonic games". Anyone have any ideas?
(YAADS 23:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ugh, maybe that person thinks that the different game types in Sa1, Sa2 and Shadow make them unique for their own subcategory.  Since this entire template makes no sense to most people, maybe we should organize the games by platform? Sonic3KMaster(鉄也)(talk) 00:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed, whoever thought that "Sonic Adventure" isn't part of the main series (and canonical at that) needs their head examined.  I'll revert this and add  until we can work out what to do. --DavidHOzAu 07:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's done now. --DavidHOzAu 07:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can anyone explain...? 

message: ...is part of Main Series?
...sign your comments?
But really, yes, they are. Rush definitely is (assuming StH06 is), and the Advance titles do tie in to the main series. SPA...maybe. Hello2112 23:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Advance 1/2/3 and Sonic Rush... 

message: Someone added this article, even though it was deleted for lack of information, and now someone has added it again with nothing more than the same sliver of info that existed before. I don't think Riders 2 should be listed here until Sega make some official announcement of it. -- VederJuda 12:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Riders 2 

message: Chao Adventures (and Chao Adventures 2) are missing. (Stefan2 12:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Chao Adventure doesn't have its own article, it redirects to Chao (Sonic the Hedgehog), so it'd be kinda weird having it on the template for Sonic games. Sonic3KMaster(talk) 21:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chao Adventures 

message: The Pico games, "Sonic the Hedgehog Gameworld" and "Tails and the Music Maker", aren't mentioned here. (Stefan2 10:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pico 

message: Sega Archives from USA Vol. 1, 2 and 3 and various other compilations are missing. (Stefan2 12:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing 

message: I think useability should come first on this kind of template. Its great to squish a list of sonic games down to 1 | 2 | 3 | &K but i dont think a "non-sonic fan" would be able to find their game easily. I decided to design a complete opposite to the current template, putting useability first without worring about making it small.
And here it is... (dosent work in IE yet)
 [ View ]
 
Sonic the Hedgehog series games
Mainstream
Sega Mega Drive (Genesis) and Sega CD        	Sonic The Hedgehog | Sonic The Hedgehog 2 | Sonic The Hedgehog CD (SCD) | Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball | Sonic The Hedgehog 3 | Sonic and Knuckles (Sonic 3 Full Version) and Blue Sphere | Sonic 3D: Flickies' Island (Sonic 3D Blast)                                                                        	Sonic The Hedgehog | Sonic The Hedgehog 2 | Sonic The Hedgehog CD (SCD) | Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball | Sonic The Hedgehog 3 | Sonic and Knuckles (Sonic 3 Full Version) and Blue Sphere | Sonic 3D: Flickies' Island (Sonic 3D Blast)                                                                        	Sonic The Hedgehog | Sonic The Hedgehog 2 | Sonic The Hedgehog CD (SCD) | Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball | Sonic The Hedgehog 3 | Sonic and Knuckles (Sonic 3 Full Version) and Blue Sphere | Sonic 3D: Flickies' Island (Sonic 3D Blast)
8-bit (Sega Game Gear and Sega Master System)	Sonic The Hedgehog (MS) | Sonic The Hedgehog 2 (MS) | Sonic Chaos (Sonic and Tails) (MS) | Sonic Drift | Sonic Triple Trouble (Sonic and Tails 2) | Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball (MS) | Sonic Drift 2 (Sonic Drift Racing) | Tails Adventures | Tails' Skypatrol | Sonic Labyrinth | Sonic Blast (G Sonic) (MS)	Sonic The Hedgehog (MS) | Sonic The Hedgehog 2 (MS) | Sonic Chaos (Sonic and Tails) (MS) | Sonic Drift | Sonic Triple Trouble (Sonic and Tails 2) | Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball (MS) | Sonic Drift 2 (Sonic Drift Racing) | Tails Adventures | Tails' Skypatrol | Sonic Labyrinth | Sonic Blast (G Sonic) (MS)	Sonic The Hedgehog (MS) | Sonic The Hedgehog 2 (MS) | Sonic Chaos (Sonic and Tails) (MS) | Sonic Drift | Sonic Triple Trouble (Sonic and Tails 2) | Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball (MS) | Sonic Drift 2 (Sonic Drift Racing) | Tails Adventures | Tails' Skypatrol | Sonic Labyrinth | Sonic Blast (G Sonic) (MS)
Sega Saturn/Dreamcast                        	SS | Sonic R | DC | Sonic Adventure | Sonic Shuffle | Sonic Adventure 2                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       	SS | Sonic R | DC | Sonic Adventure | Sonic Shuffle | Sonic Adventure 2                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       	SS | Sonic R | DC | Sonic Adventure | Sonic Shuffle | Sonic Adventure 2
NGPC/Game Boy Advance                        	NGPC | Sonic The Hedgehog Pocket Adventure | GBA | Sonic Advance (Sonic N) | Sonic Pinball Party | Sonic Advance 2 | Sonic Battle | Sonic Advance 3                                                                                                                                                           	NGPC | Sonic The Hedgehog Pocket Adventure | GBA | Sonic Advance (Sonic N) | Sonic Pinball Party | Sonic Advance 2 | Sonic Battle | Sonic Advance 3                                                                                                                                                           	NGPC | Sonic The Hedgehog Pocket Adventure | GBA | Sonic Advance (Sonic N) | Sonic Pinball Party | Sonic Advance 2 | Sonic Battle | Sonic Advance 3
Nintendo GameCube/PlayStation 2/Xbox         	Sonic Heroes (PC version) | Shadow The Hedgehog | Sonic Riders                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                	Nintendo DS                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   	Sonic Rush
Spin-offs/Sonic branded titles/Sega Arcade
Mega Drive/Genesis (Meganet and 32X)	Flicky | Sonic Eraser (Meganet) | Knuckles' Chaotix (Chaotix) (32X)                                                                                   	Flicky | Sonic Eraser (Meganet) | Knuckles' Chaotix (Chaotix) (32X)                                                                                   	Flicky | Sonic Eraser (Meganet) | Knuckles' Chaotix (Chaotix) (32X)
Sega Pico                           	Sonic's Gameworld | Tails And The Music Maker                                                                                                         	Sonic's Gameworld | Tails And The Music Maker                                                                                                         	Sonic's Gameworld | Tails And The Music Maker
Sega Arcade                         	Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car (Ride on) | SegaSonic The Hedgehog (S32) | SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter (Ride on) | Sonic The Fighters (Sonic Championship) (M2)	Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car (Ride on) | SegaSonic The Hedgehog (S32) | SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter (Ride on) | Sonic The Fighters (Sonic Championship) (M2)	Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car (Ride on) | SegaSonic The Hedgehog (S32) | SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter (Ride on) | Sonic The Fighters (Sonic Championship) (M2)
Sega PC only                        	Sonic Schoolhouse | Sonic The Screensaver                                                                                                             	PlayStation 2                                                                                                                                         	Sega SuperStars
Compilations and Ports
Mega Drive/Genesis                          	Sonic Compilation (Sonic Classics) | Sonic 2 in 1                                                                                                                                                                    	Sega Saturn                                                                                                                                                                                                          	Sonic Jam
Nintendo GameCube/PlayStation 2/Xbox/Sega PC	Compilations | Sonic and Knuckles Collection (PC only) | Sonic Mega Collection (Sonic Mega Collection Plus) | Sonic Gems Collection (GC and PS2 only)Ports (GC only) | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle | Sonic Adventure DX	Compilations | Sonic and Knuckles Collection (PC only) | Sonic Mega Collection (Sonic Mega Collection Plus) | Sonic Gems Collection (GC and PS2 only)Ports (GC only) | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle | Sonic Adventure DX	Compilations | Sonic and Knuckles Collection (PC only) | Sonic Mega Collection (Sonic Mega Collection Plus) | Sonic Gems Collection (GC and PS2 only)Ports (GC only) | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle | Sonic Adventure DX
Betas, Demos and Unreleased
Sonic 2 Beta (Mega Drive) | Sonic Crackers (Sonic Studium) (Mega Drive) | Sonic X-treme (Sonic Mars) (Sega Saturn and 32X) | Project S (PC)
Upcoming Titles
Sonic The Hedgehog (PS3, Xbox 360) | Sonic Rivals (PSP) | Sonic and the Secret Rings (Wii)
I think this would be much easier to navigate but, come to think of it, its probably a bit too big. Mabey a comprimise between the current template and my template would be good. ROSSYMILES (ロシマイルス) TALK 03:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the idea, but its huge!  Even with the hide button, it'll eat many of the articles alive when openned.  I cleaned it up a bit, (usage of NavHead vs NavContent div styles) and put the [view] button it in.  It works in IE now, too. Sonic3KMaster(talk) 00:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useability first! 

message: How is the Monkey Ball series part of the Sonic series? Other than AiAi appearing in Sonic Riders, which is a cameo, not a marging of two series. -- VederJuda 12:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monkey Ball 

message: *If I'm correct, the Shadow the Hedgehog Video game wasn't just a "spin off". It was crucial to the plot of the Sonic series and closed several plot holes. So, shouldn't this game be added to the template? UnDeRsCoRe 17:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shadow the Hedgehog (video game)

message: I've decided to be bold and hack the new split and appearance here.  Edit it at will and state when you make a change in a post. --DavidHOzAu 12:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just merged handheld with 8-bit.  diff --DavidHOzAu 12:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I just finished adding the  's. diff --DavidHOzAu 12:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that as long as the compilations template stays that small, it would be fine. Hello2112 22:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Re: "Canon".  As "main series" sounds a bit unwieldy, I thought we should put something else there to make it clear that the template doesn't cover all Sonic games.  I couldn't think of an alternative name other than "canonical".  I'm open to suggestions. --DavidHOzAu 08:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Re: Upcoming.  I think the convention about notable upcoming games in a series is to put them in the navigation template anyway. --DavidHOzAu 08:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Principal titles? Combination 13:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: So if we're going to kill the spin offs template, where will Sonic Riders appear?  It is too successful and pretty a game to be considered a spin off.  Strictly speaking, we haven't got any indication that it contradicts earlier or later stories, besides it being a racing game.  And with that picture of Sonic Riders in his article, there might be some comments on FAC about not being able to find the article from the series page.  I'm more inclined to keep it in the main series. --DavidHOzAu 07:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There isn't a series of articles into which the Sonic Riders article fits. We shouldn't be fitting things into templates because we like them; we should fit them where they fit. Frankly, it's not a major part of the series; while it may or may not be a good game (I haven't played it), it's a racing spinoff coming a decade after the series' peak of popularity, and previous experience implies that the characters and ideas introduced likely won't be terribly important ones. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I fixed up the main series template and updated this template with it. I also pulled off the 'canonical' thing and replaced it with 'main series'. i know that that isn't the best header, but it's all I could think of that wasn't really debatable. Oh, and Sonic Riders, in my opinion, should fall under spin-offs, despite the fact that I've seen it listed on the main series article as part of the main series because it was developed by Sonic Team. Change it if you must. Hello2112 23:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created the other templates:     Yes, I know that there was absolutely no consensus on the spin off template, but I used the smaller version of the template that was floating around here; hopefully there won't be a problem. --DavidHOzAu 12:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What the fuck. Who vandalised this template again? This is seriously pissing me off. Hello2112 18:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New versions 

message: Well, now that the important stuff is out of the way, now it's time to discuss the less important stuff. (I'll sign these individually so they can be replied to individually.)
What is the header for this template going to say? Canon games is out (as the story is probably the worst way to organize Sonic games, and Sonic canon isn't strictly defined anyway) and main series is awkward. Ideally, we'd have a place to link the overall umbrella Computer and video games article, as well as making it clear that we're talking about video games. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm...This new template looks good. I like it. Hello2112 01:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Well I still think Sonic 2006 should be there. To put this in context, the game is going to be released next Tuesday. It's a bit conspicuous that the article link isn't there. --DavidHOzAu 05:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. That's probably a good thing to add, then. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Throws the door open to spinoffs again. :/ - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, shared universe and metaseries come the closest to expressing the sentiment of the ideal word (phrase?) to use in the template; however I would still look for a more suitable word than those two labels. --DavidHOzAu 05:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Outstanding issues

message: I don't think this game is part of the main series. The plot of Sonic finding lost pages to The Arabian Nights Story seems irrelevent to the main series. - 15:02 18, November 2006 (UTC)
*We'll have to wait for the game to be released. Hello2112 22:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sonic and the Secret Rings: Main Series or not? 

message: Are TERRIBLE
honestly, there really really bad!!
i dislke them, bring back the one that had
Main Series
Hand held
Spinoff
Upcoming games
All in one box, cluttered it was, but you could find everything you needed.
Sonic the Hedgehog video games
Main Series                    	Sonic the Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic CD • Sonic 3 • Sonic & Knuckles • Sonic 3D Blast • Sonic Adventure • Sonic Adventure 2 • Sonic Heroes • Shadow the Hedgehog
8-bit / Handheld               	Sonic the Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic Chaos • Sonic Triple Trouble • Sonic Blast • Sonic Pocket Adventure • Sonic Advance • Sonic Advance 2 • Sonic Battle • Sonic Advance 3 • Sonic Rush
Spin-offs                      	Sonic Spinball • Sonic Drift series • Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine • Tails Adventure • Tails' Skypatrol • Sonic Labyrinth • Knuckles' Chaotix • Sonic R • Sonic Shuffle • Sonic Pinball Party • Sonic Riders
Upcoming                       	Sonic Next-Gen • Sonic Rivals • Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis • Sonic and the Secret Rings
All games and cameo appearances	All games and cameo appearances
That one!!!
:How about no? This design was agreed on, and it's not going to change because one person dislikes it. Oh, and sign your comments. 69.163.218.160 23:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  These Split game link box's 

message: Okay, someone took out Shadow the Hedgehog and added Knuckles Chaotix, just to let you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.19.141.251 (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Knuckles' Chaotix 

message: Should't be all the canon games included in the main series template eg Sonic Rush and Sonic Rivals. Higglio 19:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need to come up with a definition of Spin-off; otherwise the argument over shadow will never end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by El cid the hero (talk • contribs) 22:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  All Canon Games Included in Main Series 

message: Well, Blue Sphere is a kind of Sonic game and has its own article and all. I just ask you people, what template is it supposed to be in? Gurko 16:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Spin-off. 69.163.222.106 23:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It's a gameplay feature... not an actual game... must belong in Template:Sonic features! —davidh.oz.au 12:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and added it next to Special Stage on Features. It looks like the best move. Gurko 11:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blue Sphere

message: While we have a consensus for leaving Shadow in the spinoff template for the moment because it will avoid a pointless edit war, I think we are ignoring the fact that there was no consensus to remove it in the first place.  What I am going to do here is state clearly what we have always done when it comes to the main series, and hopefully reestablish consensus about how to handle this and similar situations in the future.
Let's look at Sonic the Hedgehog series#Chronology.  If this template was about what games were canon, all of the following games would be in this template:
:*Sonic the Hedgehog
:*Sonic the Hedgehog CD
:*Sonic the Hedgehog 2
:*Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
:*Sonic Advance
:*Sonic Advance 2
:*Sonic Adventure
:*Sonic Adventure 2
:*Sonic Heroes
:*Shadow the Hedgehog
:*Sonic Battle
:*Sonic Advance 3
:*Sonic the Hedgehog 2006
:*Sonic Rivals
:*Sonic and the Secret Rings*
:* ok, so I added this one to the list. work with me here.
Obviously this template isn't about all games which are canon, so let's categorize what sort of game console they were released on:
:
Title                          	Type
Sonic the Hedgehog             	Television
Sonic the Hedgehog CD          	Television
Sonic the Hedgehog 2           	Television
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles	Television
Sonic Advance                  	Handheld
Sonic Advance 2                	Handheld
Sonic Adventure                	Television
Sonic Adventure 2              	Television
Sonic Heroes                   	Television
Shadow the Hedgehog            	Television
Sonic Battle                   	Handheld
Sonic Advance 3                	Handheld
Sonic the Hedgehog 2006        	Television
Sonic Rivals                   	Handheld
Sonic and the Secret Rings     	Television
Taking out the handheld games, we are left with the following:
:*Sonic the Hedgehog
:*Sonic the Hedgehog CD
:*Sonic the Hedgehog 2
:*Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
:*Sonic Adventure
:*Sonic Adventure 2
:*Sonic Heroes
:*Shadow the Hedgehog
:*Sonic the Hedgehog 2006
:*Sonic and the Secret Rings
In other words, everything that should be in the template.
Hmm... that above list looks awfully familiar...
Hence we arrive at our inclusion criteria for this navigational template:
===Proposed inclusion criteria===
* The game must be on a television-based console; and,
* The game references other games directly and/or later games make reference to it;1  and,
* Sonic is the main character or appears in it;1 and,
* The game is similar enough to other games (running, jumping, plus all other stuff that changes from game to game).1
Failing the first of the above:
* Put it in the handheld template if it is a handheld game.2
Failing the any of the above:
* Put it in the spinoff template2
:1 This is the criteria the main article uses.
:2 Note: When a game is not suitable for , I must stress to use common sense when choosing between handheld and spin offs, because handheld is also used for the 8-bit game series.
In tabular form:
X     	Sonic, game, refs	no Sonic	no Game engine	no refs
TV    	                 	        	              	
non-TV	                 	        	              	
By the above criteria, Shadow qualifies because it involves running and jumping.  Sonic Riders does not.  Neither does Chaotix, nor any of your other spin offs.  Would anyone object if we accepted the above inclusion criteria for the template.  It is rather comprehensive. —davidh.oz.au 23:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure about the 8-bit versions of Sonic and Sonic 2 being on the "handheld" template as they did have TV versions. Why not use sections like ? That would take up about the same space, and also solve the problem of games appearing to be missing from a particular template. As an aside I can't find SegaSonic the Hedgehog or SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter on any of these templates, even though both use the spinoffs template. GarrettTalk 03:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We originally did have everything in the same template but A Man In Black changed it as it was against Wikipedia's policy about video game templates, I believe. Gurko 09:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The 8-bit games were also released on the Game Gear, which was a handheld I believe.  Hence that template's full title is "Sonic the Hedgehog series 8-bit and handheld video games", yet is shortened for brevity.  As for SegaSonic the Hedgehog, that should be added to the spin off template since the article is sizable enough.  As for SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter and other minor Sonic games that are stubs, they should probably be merged into an article like List of minor Sonic the Hedgehog games where they can receive better treatment and focus. (Although the "minor" designation may invite NPOV issues, I'd still say go for it, we do the same with "minor" characters anyway.) —davidh.oz.au 06:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shadow III: Son of Shadow 

message: * The game must be on a television-based console; and,
* The game references other games directly and/or later games make reference to it;1  and,
* Sonic is the main character or appears in it;1 and,
* The game is similar enough to other games (running, jumping, plus all other stuff that changes from game to game).1
Failing the first of the above:
* Put it in the handheld template if it is a handheld game.2
Failing the any of the above:
* Put it in the spinoff template2
:1 This is the criteria the main article uses.
:2 Note: When a game is not suitable for , I must stress to use common sense when choosing between handheld and spin offs, because handheld is also used for the 8-bit game series.
In tabular form:
X     	Sonic, game, refs	no Sonic	no Game engine	no refs
TV    	                 	        	              	
non-TV	                 	        	              	
</div>
By the above criteria, Shadow qualifies because it involves running and jumping.  Sonic Riders does not.  Neither does Chaotix, nor any of your other spin offs.  Would anyone object if we accepted the above inclusion criteria for the template.  It is rather comprehensive. —davidh.oz.au 23:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure about the 8-bit versions of Sonic and Sonic 2 being on the "handheld" template as they did have TV versions. Why not use sections like ? That would take up about the same space, and also solve the problem of games appearing to be missing from a particular template. As an aside I can't find SegaSonic the Hedgehog or SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter on any of these templates, even though both use the spinoffs template. GarrettTalk 03:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We originally did have everything in the same template but A Man In Black changed it as it was against Wikipedia's policy about video game templates, I believe. Gurko 09:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The 8-bit games were also released on the Game Gear, which was a handheld I believe.  Hence that template's full title is "Sonic the Hedgehog series 8-bit and handheld video games", yet is shortened for brevity.  As for SegaSonic the Hedgehog, that should be added to the spin off template since the article is sizable enough.  As for SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter and other minor Sonic games that are stubs, they should probably be merged into an article like List of minor Sonic the Hedgehog games where they can receive better treatment and focus. (Although the "minor" designation may invite NPOV issues, I'd still say go for it, we do the same with "minor" characters anyway.) —davidh.oz.au 06:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed inclusion criteria

message: Sonic Rush is pretty popular, is in the Sonic canon, and really, is the best Sonic game in years (and not my opinion - check GameRankings). Sonic Advances 1-3 and Rush really are not lesser Sonic games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Link, I have to agree with you.  Rush should be in here without a doubt.  Heck, Sonic 2006 directly follows it, and the split had it here at first.  Also, Sonic only had four games on the GBA, they were all canon, they should be here.  Can't people connect the dots??:sigh:However, the above inclusion criteria is based on what has generally avoided edit wars with newbies in the past.  Heck, the latest edit war and protection was over an established user reverting an anon.  The problem is that sometimes people come here from the various places on the net and they don't understand the way Wikipedia works.  There seems to be a real stigma against the Advance series and any handheld game in general in the fandom, (try finding any Advance-series fic on fanfiction.net,) and it is a pity that we have to go to such lengths to work around such a bias.—davidh.oz.au 06:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: EDIT: I stand corrected.  Five.  Which I would keep in handheld under a new criteria, as not main series, or spin off, as not 8-bit, depending on the way it's worded.  I'm beginning to want to get another proposed criteria going which is based more on a games' success rather than the more arbitrary one above. (which was based on past practice.) —davidh.oz.au 07:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I can't see removing four games as destroying the template. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Battle?Gurko 21:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Battle's definitely not on the same level. Battle's a fighting game pretty much, and while it has a plot connection, it is not a part of the main series. Advances 1-3 and Rush, however, are not only canon and directly connected to the plot, but also platformers. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, it is clear to me that the proposed inclusion criteria needs to be reworded.  Per this discussion, I am going to include Advance 1-3 and Rush in this template.  Give me a day or so to draw it up, as I have a significant milestone in a uni assignment I need to handle.  (Note: If memory serves, the problem games when the template was unified were Battle, Rivals, and Riders, and choosing where these will be placed will always be the most contentious.) —davidh.oz.au 00:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of Sonic Rush