Talk:Zhou Tong (archer)/Archive 1

message: </del>I am afraid that I don't know the proper chinese characters for his name.</del> (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just found them (周侗). (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 09:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chinese Characters?

message: I realize the section about Zhou Tong's resignation is a little too BIG! But all of the information details the rise of Buddhism, the creation of "New Sect" Buddhism (Ch'an/Zen), the building and dawn of Shaolin, and its downfall under Taoist Emperors, wealthy laymen, and Neo-Confucian Officals, which leads up to Zhou Tong's resignation. If anyone has any suggestions on shrinking this part of the page, please write in. Maybe a separate page should be made and linked to this one detailing the rise and fall of Buddhism in China. I would do it myself, but I'm just too lazy. If someone does do it, however, please make sure all of your info is sound. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I went a head and cleaned up the section. It is now less than half the size, but it still conveys the important stuff. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any Suggestions? 

message: Most of my info about Zhou Tong comes from Yue Fei's biography. However, I have read a seperate history where Yue Fei actually learned spearplay from a master Chen Guang and only learned Archery from Zhou Tong. This same history even states that Yue Fei's father didn't drown in the Yellow River flood, but years later. If anyone has more information on this, please share. This is the first I have heard of this. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to a Xingyi boxing website, Yue Fei, learned Xingyi boxing from a "wandering Taoist...whom had no traceable name". Could this nameless Taoist be Chen Guang?  Better still, Yue Fei's "semi-historical" biography states the "Hidden Immortal" Chen Tuan (871-989) disguised himself as a "Taoist Priest" and forewarned Yue Fei's parents of the immminent Yellow River Flood. Could this Chen Guang be Chen Tuan? Maybe the mythos became accepted as actual fact and over the years, the two got mixed up as separate persons. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yesturday night, I had a chinese friend do some research on the Chinese net and this is what he found, "曾求师于本地箭师周侗和枪手陈广([Yue Fei] was a student under arrow master zhoutong and spear master chen guang)". THAT IS IT! Plus, he was hired by Yue Fei's maternal grandfather Yao Daweng (姚大翁) to teach the young boy spear skills (Thanks to General Zhaoyun of the "Chinese History Forum" for this info). Apparently, this man's life has been lost to history. The only reason we still know his name is because of his association with young Yue Fei. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chen Guang? 

message: The video link file, showing the techniques of Shaolin Zhou Quan Tui, does work, but it is slow. The file comes from a French website. Sometimes it works right away and other times after a few minutes. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have deleted the video link in the paragraph about Shaolin Zhou Quan Tui because it was actually showing a mixture of Tongbei arm technqiues with Chuojiao leg techniques. I also deleted it because I added an actual Chuojiao video from China in the Chuojiao section under boxing. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video link does work, but is slow 

message: As I understand it, Zhou Tong was also a master of Fanziquan among other things and the material he taught was mostly Chuojiao and Fanziquan. (The two form a pair in much the same way that Xingyiquan/Baguazhang and Bajiquan/Piguazhang do.) I'm not familiar with elephant boxing, least of all in the context of Zhou Tong and Yue Fei.JFD 21:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I used some of the material in "Boxing" to create an article for Chuojiao. This is a Wikipedia entry we're writing here, not a thesis, so I retained only that material most relevant to Zhou Tong. For example, if a reader wants to how to write the old name for Fanziquan in Chinese, they can click on the Fanziquan page. That's the beauty of hypertext.JFD 20:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Thanks for making the changes. I sometimes forget that this page is linked to countless others. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 21:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boxing 

message: I certainly could not claim that this article is lacking for length or detail; it even includes Zhou's abbot lineage, and is not lacking for pictures either. Could use a little clean-up grammatically, though. After a little clean-up, I'd love to see this nommed for Good Article status. LordAmeth 01:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've written 99% of this article, so it does my heart good to hear that it is "semi-Good Article Status" material. Please tell me what the grammatical errors are. I'm trying to learn chinese. I guess I should master english before I move on to other languages.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 16:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've fixed the minor grammatical issues I first noticed. The martial arts section, however, I think still lacks some clarity, and could afford to be written more scholastically. Stylistically, it just needs some rearranging, and some further explanation. Without clicking on any links, it is not at all clear from your text here what Taoist sexual practices, qigong or neigong are, and it obscures the meaning of that entire section. Also, there are just some other minor things like the reference to "leg skills", which I'd imagine refers to skills of foot movements, kicks, or the like; 'leg skills' could be better phrased. Also, martial arts are not people, and should not be referred to with terms like "whose". Instead of "Elephant Boxing ... whose seizing, locking, and pressure point strike techniques...", write "Elephant Boxing... the seizing, locking, and pressure point techniques of which..." Anyway, I apologize to be so critical, as I am likely no older or more formally educated than yourself. But I do hope to see this article (and all of our work) reach higher and higher standards. Good luck! LordAmeth 22:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:MilHist Assessment

message: I just recently made changes to the page to show a balance between the Historical and Fictional aspects of Zhou Tong's life. With the help of more superior amateur historians than myself, I was able to find passages from various Yue fei articles that showed Zhou Tong only taught the boy archery. No martial arts are mentioned. How the connection with Chuojiao, Fanzi, and Elephant boxing was made is beyond me. I have found that many martial arts were attributed to legendary people to give them more historical weight. I, however, don't doubt the validity of the connection though. I just can't see how all of these arts were connected with this man without some of them being real. I just need to do more research into original Chinese sources. Don't worry, I cited all of my changes so it wouldn't seem like all of it were my own personal findings.
Again, I would like to split the page up into "Fact" and "Fiction" but it seems there is a lot more fictional material available about him.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact or Fiction? 

message: I moved the page from "Zhou Tong (Shaolin Abbot)" to "Zhou Tong (Shaolin Monk)" because I've only been able to find one source that states he was an "Abbot". The other 99% of the sources say he's just a monk. Also, I deleted about a 3rd of the page because I couldn't back up the "Resignation from Shaolin" section's info with citations. I hate to admit that it was from my own research, but I tried my hardest to connect the info to Zhou Tong with published material. Plus, I've been spending a lot of time on the China History Forum and they have helped me to uncover some of the "Falsities" floating around the net about Zhou Tong. I have no doubt that my information was correct since "Buddhist Persecutions" and "Neo-Confucians" almost succeeded in smothering "Monastic Buddhism" (not the entirety of Chinese Buddhism), but I couldn't link it DIRECTLY to Zhou Tong. If you want the info back, find sources that point back to Zhou Tong. I HIGHLY doubt you will find any.
Also, I’ve learned the differences between the various Yue Fei biographies. Granted most of them are fiction (which many take as fact), but I have been able to derive some historical info from them. One fictional biography in particular states Zhou Tong was Yue Fei’s adopted father. Chinese records do not point to this. I made a note of this in the article. 
The page is still not everything that it could be, but its still the most comprehensive "English" source on Zhou Tong I've ever seen. If you guys see something that is lacking a citation, PLEASE let me know. However, be careful because a lot of my sources are already posted at the bottom. Read through these sources before you give me suggestions. Thanks.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 06:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  HUGE CHANGES: DELETIONS & AN ENTIRE PAGE MOVE!!! 

message: I've recently gone through the page and weeded out several paragraphs that have completely "un-provable" material. For instance, I removed the info for the Shaolin Zhou Quan Tui (Shaolin Zhou Boxing Leg) because, other than the one French website, I have not been able to find it anywhere else. I also removed the info about him being an abbot of Shaolin. I'd say that 99% of the fictional information about him on the net will say he's just a Shaolin monk. I have not been able to find actual historical evidence he was a monk or abbot of Shaolin. Plus, I've tried to rely more on books or internet sites presenting the books that deal with this history. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 02:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weeding 

message: All legendary material says Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk. All historical material says he was just an archer. Why do I keep the page “Zhou Tong (Shaolin Monk)”? Well it’s because the legend of him being a Shaolin Monk is so widespread that people will only search for him as such. If I moved the page to “Zhou Tong (Archer)” then no one would stop to read the page since they are looking for the monk of the same name, despite the fact they are one and the same.
He is usually confused with the Zhou Tong from the Water Margin. But these are two totally different people. And because 3 of the 108 Water Margin Bandits are considered, according to legend, to be Zhou Tong’s students, this makes the division between these similarly named people nonexistent in the eyes of an uninitiated person. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shaolin Monk or Archer? 

message: Is it really necessary to have the long disambig name "(Shaolin monk)"? Seems much simpler and more reliable to have the disambig name be "(monk)". Not all biographical details should go into the title... --Gwern  (contribs) 19:45 15 November 2006 (GMT)
:That's not a bad idea. I'll go ahead and make the change. Thanks. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page name 

message: I just separated the notes and references section. I will add parenthesis containing the citation where needed later. However, this is beginning to feel like a hefty task as I need to change the format on all of my reference books and then cite as said. I may just switch back to the old embedded citations, with a mixed notes and reference section. I know they are supposed to be separate, but it's not worth this much trouble. (Ghostexorcist 04:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I switched it back the other day. Too much trouble. (Ghostexorcist 22:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation of Notes and References 

message: I noticed that I described Zhou Tong's appearance in Yue Fei's "historical" biography, but I failed to describe his in the "fictional" one. I am currently writing a brief paragraph that fleshes his character out. I will also refer to it in the Shaolin and Military sections. Yue Fei's fictional biography only paints Zhou Tong as a former military man and NOT a Shaolin monk.(Ghostexorcist 22:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description