Talk:Demographics of Ukraine

message: Do we have such information?  If not, how can we find it? Kevlar67 05:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lingusitic demographics by oblast 

message: According to this article there are only 12711 people of Korean ethnicity in Ukraine.  In the Koryo-saram article about Koreans in post-Soviet states, it lists 198,000 Korean residents in Ukraine.  From what I know of the Korean diaspora and from other sources, I would trust this second figure more.  Any thoughts? 71.58.71.191 (talk) 16:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Very hard to believe the second figure - something like three times as many Koreans live in Ukraine than Australia.  Better to go for official statistics of the country where the people are  Kransky (talk) 10:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Koreans in Ukraine 

message: I'm doing a project and I am reading an old NYT article on Ukraine from 1994 that says the number of ethnic Russians living in Crimea was 70%. How did it drop so drastically to being the minority? 65.32.206.250 (talk) 14:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened?

message: Regarding this sentence: "Donetsk and Dniproptrovsk oblasts in eastern and central Ukraine have the country's highest rate of abortions." - I have to ask, what's the purpose of this sentence? What use is this fact on its own? I'm often finding that when someone adds something new to that particular section on regional differences, they're more concerned with abstract statistics merely showing the differences, rather than going into why these regional differences occur, which is, in my opinion, the only part that matters. It just seems like these entries only serve to prove that "western Ukraine is awesome and the Eastern regions suck, just look at these statistics!" --why not help expand the section, using your own sources, to explain the situation? For example, to the person who just added the above mentioned sentence back, why did you leave out this part from your source: "Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk Oblasts are located in the southeast, boasting the highest economic potential, high levels of economic activity, and high population density. They are highly industrialized and urbanized oblasts with environmental degradation." It goes on to explain the situation and why these demographic differences occur. Considering you took the abortion stats from the very same paragraph you obviously read this part as well. And this does seem relevant to the section, doesn't it? The same goes for the abortion info in general. Why did I have to go back add context to your arbitrary statistics? Okay, the western regions have lower abortion rates than the other regions. But do you suppose the why is important? Or are we to just assume that the people in the Western regions are inherently better and healthier human beings due to some genetic difference? LokiiT (talk) 23:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I re-added that sentence without going back and reading the source because it had been removed when you made your edit (otherwise your edit was a good one). I think that listing the oblast with the highest abortion rate is relevent and notable.  I didn't go back to read the original source now. The info about being highly industrialized and with environmental degradation might not be relevent to this demographics article, although population density and rate of urbanization would be and ought to be included. I appreciate your addition of context and would likely have eventually gotten around to adding more from that article. Thank you for doing so.Faustian (talk) 23:55, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facts taken out of context 

message: I suspect the official statistics about emigration could be significantly manipulated, so as to underestimate the emigration. If somebody wants to register that he/she moved out from Ukraine to a foreign country, there is a complex and costly procedure to go through. Most people probably won't bother to do this unless they need it for a good reason. So they remain registered as living in Ukraine.
I understand that this is not encyclopedic material, but I thought to write it up here on the talk page in case somebody is doing research into the topic, and will be interested to investigate further. --Ukram234 (talk) 16:31, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statistics manipulation on emigration? 

message: If you add up the charts of Ethnic Ukrainians and Ethnic Russians by oblast according to the 2001 census, several oblasts add up to more than 100%. At least one of them (or maybe both) must be inflated for several oblasts. 82.136.225.137 (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic charts are not adding up 

message: Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please use French academic sources 

message: This page contains mostly numbers. Shouldn't the numbers be explained? I know the context, but many readers don't.Xx236 (talk) 07:29, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Almost no text 

message: No explanation here since February 2014, so I'm removing the template.Xx236 (talk) 07:30, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The neutrality of this article is disputed. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have copied value from the infobox to the subsection, I don't know the source of it.Xx236 (talk) 09:59, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Net migration rate 

message: Please explain.Xx236 (talk) 10:01, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ukraine Urban]] 

message: There is no mention of the obvious fact that the official figures of the population of Ukraine is overestimated by... a lot (something like 1 million people or maybe even 2 millions). The mechanism is extremely simple : there has been no census since 2001, and after that there has been a massive emigration. The official figures count the immigration, but instead of estimating emigration like others people do (it's people who leave the country and don't come back), they only count a fraction of the immigration (maybe counting only people who declare their emigration at the consulate, or something like that). There are a few articles out there mentioning this falsification. For example this post in Nate Silver's blog mentions the work of Björn Schwentker https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ukraines-other-big-challenge-is-a-demographic-one/.
It seems quite laughable to publish without any comment those figures claiming that there is no mass emigration from Ukraine when everybody can see hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian newcomers in Poland and in Russia. Also, Russian statistics give the details of the country of origin for the main countries with population exchange, and, well, it doesn't match with the official net Ukrainian immigration : Between 1997 and 2015, the total net movement between Russia and Ukraine was 1,227,134 people moving from Ukraine to Russia according to Russian statistics. Hundreds of thousands more moved to Poland, Canada, USA, and many other countries. The official figures claiming a net immigration simply don't make any sense. Н Француз (talk) 14:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:SOAP and WP:NOR. Yes, there are anomalies in the article, but you are suggesting developing the content by creating our own WP:SYNTH according to calculations taken from primary sources, dubious sources, and content by someone who is, essentially, a blogger. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:20, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely not. I'm pointing out the elephant in the room and suggesting something should be done about it. The -0.54% figure contradicts the rest of the data. If the biography of someone mentions he was born in the year 1800 in the intro and then the rest of the text mentioned his year of birth as 1880, obviously it wouldn't be left with that obvious contradiction because of WP:SYNTH. Also, the source I was pointing to is some Max Planck institute research, which you are calling dubious. Obvious falsification is obvious, but whatever. Н Француз (talk) 08:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

text: I finally found two sources explicitely stating that real figures of emigration are much higher than the official figures : "По информации Государственной службы занятости в прошлом году через посредников выехали на работу за границу 76 884 украинцев, из них в Польшу — 3 075 человек. В реальности эти цифры выше в сотни раз" (РИА Новости Украина) http://rian.com.ua/analytics/20161215/1019665062.html and " Сопоставление этих данных с данными по эмиграции из Украины показывает, что реальные цифры депопуляции гораздо выше официальных [...]При этом к официальной статистике возникает множество вопросов..."  http://www.rubaltic.ru/article/politika-i-obshchestvo/050816-ukraina/. Many articles in English do mention the huge emigration figures (to Poland, Czech republic, Italy...), but I didn't find one which pointed out the obvious contradiction (apart from the Max Planck Institute journalist), so those 2 are the best sources so far. The author of the latter article is a journalist and analyst from Kaliningrad, he mentions UN figures of Ukraine refugees to Russia and Belarus. The former is from a very famous news agency. Н Француз (talk) 09:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK thank you  for your message on your discussion page, let's discuss this article here. I hope you can use the sources I mentioned to improve the article. It may be useful to add the net emigration figures (both the official immigration of ~10,000 per year and the estimated ~200,000 emigrants per year, to confront them). I don't know where the -.54% estimate is from (UN documents and CIA factbook only quote the official figures, see https://esa.un.org/miggmgprofiles/indicators/files/Ukraine.pdf), it would be nice to find out. If you're up to it, you could show the official figures of migrations between Ukraine and Russia from Rosstat (110105 from Ukraine to Russia for January-November 2016, 146131 for 2015, 94370 for 2014,  then much less, 28,012 per year on average for the 16 previous years, making a total of 1.34 M people in total for 1997-2016...). Also, the Migration Services of Russia point to 1 Million people who moved from Ukraine to Russia in 2014-2015, I'm not sure how this difference is possible. Maybe it's because they were officially just "visiting", not immigrants. Maybe , who also showed an interest in improving this article, could find the equivalent for Poland? Now emigration from Ukraine to Poland is more than to Russia. Those huge emigration figures (and maybe the UN figures about refugees, about 1 million) confronted to the official figures claiming net immigration (from where ???) could illustrate the falsification and give at least a rough understanding of the real situation, which is the best we can aim for as nobody really knows for sure what is the current population of Ukraine. There's also this IOM document which gives figures of EU residence permit of Ukrainians http://www.iom.org.ua/sites/default/files/ff_eng_10_10_press.pdf.Н Француз (talk) 10:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

text: http://www.newsweek.pl/biznes/firma/ilu-ukraincow-pracuje-w-polsce-i-jak-duzo-zarabiaja-,artykuly,403027,1.html says 1 000 000 Ukrainians visited Poland in 2015 (mostly worked), they exchanged so at one moment about 500 000 were in Poland. Xx236 (talk) 10:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

text: http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/ukraincy-w-polsce-raport-jak-wyglada-ich-sytuacja-na-rynku-pracy/x754s3x detailed report for any województwo.Xx236 (talk) 10:49, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction in the emigration data 

message: Which one?Xx236 (talk) 10:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  leaving aside Poland, for which there is conflicting data 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article mentions twice that there are 49,817 Koreans in Ukraine but they are suspiciously missing from the table of ethnic groups, which lists all groups numbering 30,000 and more. There are supposedly three sources for the number of Koreans, but they don't really confirm it – quite on the contrary. First source is simply the main page of the Ukrainian Statistical Office website, which obviously doesn't contain any relevant information. Second is an article which mentions estimate of "about 30,000" – a different number than the specific one used. Third, in "Languages" section doesn't work anymore, but it was based on census results – the same ones used in the "Ethnic Groups" table, which are confirmed by sources like this one that clearly show that the number of Koreans is smaller than what the page currently claims. In earlier versions of this page the number of Koreans, sourced by my "third" link, was different (12,711 total with 700 using Ukrainian as first language, with other numbers the same as in current version of "Languages" table). It seems that at some point someone changed numbers to ones contradicted by sources. They should be reverted to an earlier version. Barcival (talk) 19:57, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Koreans 

message: Even if you assume they are no longer part of Ukraine, then they are part of the newly founded Republics, not of Russia itself. Chaptagai (talk) 07:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @Chaptagai To my understanding the population of the DNR and LNR are not included in the Demographics of Russia page as their populations are not collected by the Russian census authority so I don't know why it says that. Crimea however is because that was formally annexed into Russia so maybe that sentence meant that? Feel free to remove that part. Tweedle (talk) 10:12, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, thanks. I removed it. --Chaptagai (talk) 12:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is the "anti-terrorist operation zone" included in the Demographics of Russia? 

message: I think it's correct not to count Crimea after 2014, but could we make a note that says it was militarily occupied and annexed by Russia and that the annexation is internationally recognized only by a handful of countries?
I think we should also make a note that regions partly occupied and annexed by Russia in 2022 are still included. Chaptagai (talk) 09:57, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I included a note on Crimea to avoid the impression that the inclusion in Russia's data is arbitrary or an endorsement of the annexation. With respect to the newly annexed territories of 2022, I made no note as the data stop in January 2022 anyway, so this question is moot for the time being. Chaptagai (talk) 10:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-inclusion of Crimea 

message: So the population has doped by 2% but the births by 95% and the deaths deaths by 90%. For sure. I mean that birth drop while war. OK. But a mortality drop by 90% in the middle of a war? I do not try to do own research and add things that everybody who travels near the border (west or east) can see but no "reliable source" would ever dare to write. But at least removing the years after 2019 of the State Statistics Service of Ukraine should be a beginning its WP:PRIMARY, when numbers do not add up any more would be really good. I'm not a big fan of WP:PRIMARY because sometimes they are the best sources available and there is often no reason for doubts. This is clearly not the case here. --2001:9E8:2DD3:2600:DA5E:D3FF:FE0E:3424 (talk) 21:33, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove obviously false numbers 

message: I would suggest adding here for explanation that Crimea was annexed by Russia and that this is not widely internationally recognized and that Crimeas Population is not counted because the Ukrainian Census has no way of making a count in Russian-controlled territory. Chaptagai (talk) 08:31, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note: Data excludes Crimea starting in 2014.[41] 

message: This article is titled 'Ukrainian Population Estimated Between 28 to 34 million' and dates from this year.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/15533
45.74.78.11 (talk) 01:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  a more up to date population estimate 

message: Demographics of Ukraine#After WWII year 2023 Crude migration rate/Fertility rate have reversed numbers:CMR number should be FR number and vice versa.--Bornsommer (talk) 22:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: As it seems likely that you are correct - the numbers are misplaced - you could just make the change yourself. It would be best if we had a reliable source for these numbers. Since I don't see one, I'm not going to make the change based simply on the optics. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 17:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Add ping . — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 17:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It should seem obvious that it is physically impossible to give birth to a negative number of children, as it now states, and the number of children born has fallen from 1.16 children 2 years earlier to 1.00 child in 2023. I tried to make the change, but my edit didn't work (see View history (of the article). As I don't seem to be able to edit this obvious typo/error I ask for other persons who can edit to do it. I might add that I follow European demographics articles regularly.--Bornsommer (talk) 18:48, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just reverted the edit in question (See View history). It seems this editor has wrecked havoc not only on this page but also other pages. Should be blocked.--Bornsommer (talk) 19:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers for 2023 reversed