Talk:Autism spectrum/Archive 7

message: Eubulides, it's good to link to free full text whenever we have it, and PubMed central is stable; you might want to reconsider eliminating URLs.    SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Three of those four citations have DOI links, which link straight to the free full text; surely we don't need to duplicate that work. With the fourth (Yu et al.) the reader can click on the Pubmed ID for the abstract, and click on the abstract for the full text; won't that suffice? The tradeoff for Yu et al. is whether to lessen the maintenance effort (and article size), or whether to give the reader one-click access to the full text. Eubulides 03:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever consensus is on this article is fine with me, but on articles I write, I like to keep in mind that not all laypersons are familiar with PMIDs and DOIs, and they're accustomed to just clicking on an article title for a link to the text, as that is the way most other types of artices (non-medical) are referenced.  It's just an extra help for our non-medical-oriented readers.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks for explaining, I put them back in. I looked at a few other medical pages and didn't find any consensus, so if you want them for cites you edit that's fine with me. Personally I don't think they add much; the browser highlights PMIDs and DOIs the same way it highlights titles, and it's not that hard to figure out that clicking them gets you there. So I probably won't bother for cites I add. I did notice that the pubmed URLs weren't consistent in format so I tried to make them consistent (for the ones I put back in, that is). Eubulides 07:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first link that SandyGeorgia pointed out above actually linked to a full-text version of the article rather than just the Pubmed abstract - that's an even more important link to have.  My thought is to agree with you, a URL to pubmed is redundant to the PMID link, but the full-text links should definitely be there.  WLU 13:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Just to follow up: a few weeks after the above, after the references settled down a bit, I went through and added URLs for every freely-available version I could find, except for URLs that smelled like copyright violations. Eubulides 04:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omitting URLs 

message: Is this two-sentence section going to grow, or can the third-level heading be eliminated by merging content ?  No hurry, just wondering—not a fan of third-level headings for limited content.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My guess is that the 3rd-level heading will go. Should know in a couple of days. There are a lot of papers to wade through. Eubulides 20:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I did a first cut at the mirror neuron rewrite. It doesn't need a 3rd level heading now so I removed it. Haven't finished rewriting the containing section Autism#Pathophysiology though; its first half is still a mess. Eubulides 06:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking good !  (I'm hoping you'll dispose of that parenthetical statement somewhere in there that says what an EEG is by just linking it earlier on.)  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that got fixed in a later rewrite. Eubulides 06:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mirror neurons 

message: Now that Autism#See also has been whittled down to a single invocation of the portal template, the formatting looks bad with Firefox 2.0.0.4: the portal's box cuts into the "Notes" section and the first reference does not flow around it nicely. Is there some better way to format a portal template? I realize the portal template is supposed to go into "See also", but if "See also" is otherwise empty is there a better place to put the template? It seems a bit odd that the portal template is so far away from the "Pervasive development disorders" template and the "Mental and behavioural disorders" template. Eubulides 06:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In terms of WP:MOS and WP:GTL, I don't know the answer to that, but agree with your assessment.  I guess, IAR, and put it wherever it looks best ?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I moved the portal to Autism#External links, next to the other goodies in that section which are actually internal links. Might as well keep the troublesome stuff together. At least the table of contents is one line shorter  now.… Eubulides 15:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, now I'm eyeing that spoken articles link and wondering why we should have a link to such an outdated version; does anyone know policy and know whether we can delete that link?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't find any official policy but the discussions I found suggested that people who rely on spoken articles probably prefer an outdated copy to no copy at all. Eubulides 06:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "See also" formats poorly due to portal 

message: I haven't read through the new article yet (waiting until work is further along), but wondering if two items are covered; differential diagnoses and common comorbids?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *At this point everything but Autism#Characteristics and the lead are pretty much done, so please feel free to review all but those two sections. Hadn't thought about differential diagnosis; will add it to the list of things to do. For common comorbids Autism#Epidemiology has a paragraph on the subject, and the section header refers to Conditions comorbid to autism spectrum disorders for more details.Eubulides 17:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *I have now added a paragraph to Autism#Diagnosis that talks about differential diagnoses and the average diagnosis delay. Eubulides 21:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, on mention of medications (eg risperidone), see discussion and methods used at Tourette syndrome (the issue is one of making the article "global" vis-a-vis trade names on medications in the US -- need to specify generic names, but in a way that footnotes US trade name vs. others).  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Trade names are such a hassle when trying to write articles for an international audience; Tourette syndrome's special footnote on this subject is a symptom of the hassle. If we tried to mention the names in all English-speaking countries we'll unnecessarily bulk up the article with talk about "Risperdal", "Ridal", etc. Is this issue covered in WP:MEDMOS? I'm sort of hoping that it's OK to just mention the generic name here, as anyone who cares to find out the trade name in their locale can do so by following the wikilink to Risperidone. Eubulides 17:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure if MEDMOS deals with it; if not, we should tackle that at some point with Fvasconcellos.  For this article, since only one med is mentioned, probably not worth worrying about, and the wikilink to risperidone covers it.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MEDMOS recommends the generic name for article names. It seems logical to follow the through to article references except where there is a strong country-specific focus to the article. This isn't the case for Autism. I've noticed, with anticonvulsants, that US physicians and patients mention trade names more freely than in the UK. I'm not convinced there is any justification for mentioning trade names in this article on International-English WP unless it is a direct quote. Colin°Talk 22:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having slept on this, I can think of some reasons to additionally mention a brand name. The case is strongest when the drug is still under patent, so only one or two brands exist in English-speaking countries; it is genuinely novel, rather than a me-too; it is widely discussed in the mainstream media using the brand name (e.g. Ritalin). Care should be taken to avoid e.g. a US-centric view. We should really discuss this over at Med/Pharm projects. Colin°Talk 08:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not in favour of listing all the brand names on the drug pages either. Current MEDMOS and WP:PHARM guidelines encourage just listing the initial brand name(s). The brands of generic and non-English versions are too numerous. Colin°Talk 22:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comprehensiveness 

message: Continuing from Causes ... a lot of this is the kind of smoothing out that Tony or Colin would be good at ... the article is quite good, but the prose could still be reviewed to really polish it to a squeaky shine (not my strong point ... but highlighting some areas for attention, feel free to ignore if not helpful):
 ... but in most cases its etiology is not yet known.  It's known for some cases ?  This is perhaps spelled out later in the text, but may leave the reader confused at this stage.  Not sure how to best fix this ...
:Yes, it is known in some cases. Maybe 10–15% if you assume today's bleeding-edge technology (which most people don't use or even know about). One estimate (quoted in the article) is that the percentage will rise to at least 30–40% with near-future advances. Perhaps this can help you suggest a rewording? Eubulides 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps change "because" to "as?" Eubulides 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Suggestions welcome. The point I want to preserve is the serendepity between autism symptoms and vaccinations. Eubulides 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The "overwhelming" phrase comes from the cited source. It might be best to use the same adjective as opposed to trying to paraphrase it, as this is a contentious area. The exact quote from the abstract is "In particular, some have suggested an association between the Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine and autism. Our literature review found very few studies supporting this theory, with the overwhelming majority showing no causal association between the Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine and autism." Eubulides 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, that's good news.  Because this is a contentious area, how about using the quote parameter on the cite template to include that exact quote, lest it's challenged in the future?  (I don't want to suggest rewording on some of the other areas.  Since I don't have the sources, and am not that well-versed in autism, I'd rather leave wording to others.)   SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That quote's a bit long. But if the citation is challenged often enough, it'd make sense to put it in as you suggest. How about if we wait and see? Eubulides 21:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Changed to "Its mechanism". Eubulides 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Suggestions welcome. The two sentences come from different citations which is why they're separate now. Eubulides 20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The cited source doesn't say "learning". It says "Considering the factors discussed in previous sections, such dysfunction could prevent or interfere with imitation, or perhaps more fundamentally, lead to the ‘impaired formation/co-ordination of specific self-other representations’ proposed to lie at the root of the cascade of autistic problems [21]. This in turn could explain the failure to develop reciprocal social abilities including shared/joint attention, gestural recognition and language (particularly the social/pragmatic aspects that Rogers and Pennington [21] note are the most affected), as well as breakdowns in the development of empathy and a full ToM." I condensed this down to "interferes with imitation and leads to autism's core features of social impairment and communication difficulties"; does the fuller quote help you to suggest a better condensation? Eubulides 21:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The source says "patients" but this isn't relevant. I changed it to "individuals". Eubulides 21:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Simplified it to "The underconnectivity theory of autism hypothesizes that autism is marked by underfunctioning high-level neural connections and synchronization, along with an excess of low-level processes." Eubulides 21:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks, I reworded it to explain "systematize". Eubulides 21:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: We need to fix Executive dysfunction at some point, yes. "Executive dysfunction" is supposed to be a theory here. I added some "of this theory"s to try to make the strength comments clearer. All the theories, including executive dysfunction, are broader than autism, but it's fair to say that all of them are closely related to and/or motivated by autism. Eubulides 21:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I rewrote it to get rid of "stage 1" and "stage 2". They are not standard medical terms, and different sources use different phrases. For example, the NICHD flowchart says "Level 1" and "Level 2". I switched to "preliminary investigation" and "diagnosis and evaluations". Eubulides 21:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The previous discussion has been changed to give numerical estimates for severe tantrums, aggression, and self-injury; is that good enough? Eubulides 22:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, the prognosis is what stood out when I read the current version of this article (which is much improved from a couple of weeks ago, BTW!).  I hope this isn't considered "original research," but I took a crack at this.  The subjects of the Howlin et al. study were diagnosed between 1950 and 1979, before intensive early behavioral was available.  Therefore, the prognosis for recently diagnosed children may not be as grim as implied by this study.  The Newschaffer et al. epidemiology review (2007) briefly addresses this issue on p. 237.  NighthawkJ 19:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: oops, Nighthawk, sorry—I added a fact tag before reading the talk page.  Perhaps the statement you added can be better cited to the Newschaffer source?  I don't have the sources, so not sure how to best cite that.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I should have cited Newschaffer when I initially added the statement.  I added the reference.  NighthawkJ 20:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The "Most children with autism" comment refers to autism not to ASD, since the cited reference is about autism proper. NighthawkJ, thanks for relieving the grim prognosis with the Newschaffer citation. I modified it to mention that changes in diagnostic practice also cast some doubt on the grimness of the Howlin study (a point that Newschaffer also makes). Eubulides 22:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I haven't seen any studies that would confirm that theory. There have been several recent prevalence studies, using fancy techniques like capture-recapture and active ascertainment, but nothing I've seen recently indicates less-accurate diagnosis for girls. Eubulides 22:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I changed it to "It is not known whether any of the increase was real." Still passive, but worded more neutrally and accurately I hope, and matches the caption and the lead section better. Eubulides 22:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps remove the "ago, "? That would make it shorter, anyway. Eubulides 22:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Random comments 

message: The current Wikipedia article only describes autism in childhood, but what about later on when this autist child grows up? with and without treatment? I'm really interested.
:The article does focus on childhood, but it also mentions adults half a dozen times. You might want to look at Autism#Prognosis and especially Autism#Cultural references. I'm sure these sections could stand improvement; suggestions are welcome. Eubulides 23:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about later? 

message: Son-rise is a programme first establised by Barry Kaufman which can completely cure children of autism. His son Raun was very severly autistic, with the professional doctors telling Barry and his wife, Samahria, to put him in a home, as they thought he had no hope. Barry and Samahria did not want to put their son in a home. It is quite amazing how they both discovered this treatment, one of Raun's repetitive behaviours was rocking back and forth, and one day Samahria sat down with him and started to rock back and forth with him. For the first time he looked her in the eye - something he previously did not do. Obviously this was a very emotional moment for Samahria, and she and Barry took this to the next level, realising that you shouldn't force autistic children into a non-autistic world, it simply does not work. Instead you should try to copy them, and by doing so, enter their world, so that they know there are people in their life, they know they are not alone. Raun is now completely cured from autism after hours of the 'Son-rise' programme treatment, with Samahria relating to her son, and Barry observing, and therefore seeing what needs to be improved. I saw a lecture of Raun's, explaining his whole situation, and it was so incredible to see how someone who was completely locked in their own world, who could not speak, could now talk and even make jokes. A child who could not socialise in anyway had turned into one of the most sociable people I have ever met. There is no way you would be able to tell he ever had autism. So if that is not a cure, what is?
I removed the unsourced essay above.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, Son-Rise.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced, removed 

message: I left inline comments on a few fractions.  WP:MOSNUM#Numbers in words says they should be spelled out in words, which makes sense, since they display awfully on my laptop monitor.  I didn't fix them all since MOS doesn't say whether fractions are hyphenated.  I left a question for Tony.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I changed the rest to words too. We can add hyphens later as needed. The style guides I consulted disagree about the hyphens. Eubulides 06:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tony mentioned hyphens, so you might want to check that MOS page before going to FAC.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:59, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:MOS#Hyphens doesn't seem to have anything directly on point. Eubulides 08:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks, I fixed that. Eubulides 08:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Image:Autismbrain.jpg has a bad tag that probably will get scrutinized at FAC; if you need help,  is good at Fair Use.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks, I hope I fixed that now, here. Eubulides 01:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice!  (I don't speak images; they scare me to death.)  01:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fractions 

message: In case it comes up at FAC, per WP:SIZE, size is perfect, a bit of room to grow if needed.  Per Dr pda's page size script:
* Prose size:  35 KB
* Ref size:    18 KB  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size check 

message: Early infantile autism was Kanner's name for what is now known as autism. All the material in Early infantile autism is discussed in Autism, and Autism mentions the origin of the term early infantile autism, so the Early infantile autism page is superfluous and should be a redirect to Autism.
Another page Regressive autism can serve as a good home for the issue about whether regressive and non-regressive autism are distinctive subtypes. But that issue is better served by having that one page, not two different pages.
Eubulides 17:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur with merge and redirect; this is one of many examples of autism information that is unnecessarily split into daughter articles and should be merged/consolidated.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks, it doesn't seem to be contentious so I'll do the merge. Eubulides 16:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I got a request to keep the discussion open for a reasonable amount of time, so I undid the merge for now. Eubulides 20:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After two weeks there has been no discussion other than concurrence, so I did the merge. Eubulides 16:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging "Early infantile autism" into "Autism" 

message: New Scientist: Magazine issue 2610 (Abstract)
:Web removes social barriers for those with autism
27 June 2007
Celeste Biever
TO CHAT to Torley Wong is to whirl from one delightfully unrelated topic to the next. Within a few minutes we are discussing the video of him dancing on YouTube, what it is like to be bullied, and his recent joy at finding a clock in precisely the same colours as a watermelon, his favourite fruit.
We are not chatting face-to-face, instead we are typing messages to each other inside the virtual world Second Life. As we type, our animated representatives, or avatars, nod their heads at each other on the screen.
----
Wong has Asperger's syndrome, a form of "high-functioning" autism...
:Hypothesis: Autism will be increasingly understood and provided with adaptive solutions through a reconciliation of Humanity and Technology.
:Method: The combination of approaches taken from the Evolutionary Algorithm, Neural Networks, Lemmatisation and similar Computational Linguistics technquies, empowered through emergent analytical meta model techniques provided by consortium such as the Object Management Group which aim to capture and model complexity, directly applied to a study of the evolution of communication in emergent Folksonomy technologies. They will achieve that because most have someone they know and Love with Autism.
In-Limbo 12:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The original reference would be nice for the info contained therein, but the stuff below the line looks like original research - if you put it together and thought it up yourself, it is not suitable for inclusion.  It's a bit difficult to understand what you would like to happen with this information, could you clarify please?  WLU 17:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, the stuff above the line is already very briefly summarized in the article under Autism#History and the article already contains the Biever citation. This article is not really the place for lots more detail about the Internet and autistic culture; a better place would be Sociological_and_cultural_aspects_of_autism, which Autism#History refers to. Eubulides 20:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hypothesis on Autism 

message: By the way, what is your thinking on GA?  Tim Vickers is the best GA reviewer for this article, and his input could be very useful at this stage.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article is ready for GA review now. The last comment made on the peer review page was Colin's, about 4 days ago. He ended "To be continued…", I guess meaning he would finish reviewing Autism#Epidemiology and then review Autism#History at some point, but hasn't had the time yet. Autism#History does have a "mergefrom" header in it, but that shouldn't affect a GA review I would think, as the merge wouldn't affect Autism itself. With all that in mind do you think we should ask for a GA review now? To some extent I'd rather get this over with while my neurons still remember all 101 references…. Eubulides 20:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's OK to be at peer review and GAC at the same time.  Tim is such a good reviewer that it would be great to get him, so it's a matter of timing.  How can I say this; I'm worried that you'll put it up at GAC and someone else will pick it up before Tim, since there's a GAC contest on right now.  I'm not sure if it's "proper" to ask Tim in advance to pick it up.  Colin, what do you think?  I'm just not aware of other GA reviewers who will give it a going-over as thorough as Tim will; anyone can pick it up and give it a quick pass, since it's clearly GA.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do intend to finish the peer review. Sorry it is taking so long. Real-life, etc. Has it been four days! I know nothing about GAC. Perhaps you can request specific skills/experience from your reviewer (e.g. asking for someone who has experience of reviewing this kind of article, and is aware of the issues/controversies involved). If all you want are Tim's suggestions, then ask him direct for his suggestions, and don't confuse the two. Colin°Talk 22:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good idea; I'll leave that decision to Eubulides, though.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, I asked him for his opinion and suggestions and he has edited the lead. Wow, he's good. I have minor quibbles and will follow up on them. Eubulides 01:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  Hah! I see now that Tim's rewrite of the lead added two "but"s, one of which I had removed in response to Colin's earlier request. Maybe the article's low-"but" diet was too severe after all? I'll wait a bit before jumping back in, in case he's still editing.  Eubulides 01:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The number of reported cases of autism increased dramatically in the U.S. from 1996 through 2005. It is not known how much, if any, of this increase was real.
Not all readers will understand "increase was real"; maybe a few more words that will help the layperson who looks at the image captions.  SandyGeorgia (Talk)
*The intent was "Here's the graph, but we don't know whether this increase was real." I don't know how to make it clearer without making it a lot longer but if you can think of good wording please let us know. On the theory that it might be challenged I added a citation; perhaps that will help. Eubulides 01:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA review?

message: Hey, I made a change to  the "other symptoms" section to the article "autism" by placing a space between "A" and "typical" and someone reverted it. What does "atypical" mean? Sean90 19:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Atypical means "not typical." :) .V. [Talk|Email] 20:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Atypical" is a word invented by those with neurotypical syndrome to describe those who don't meet their perfect standards. If someone finds people not as interesting as objects or animals, they're "atypical". Yes, if animals or objects are the only object of someone's attention then they should be checked out but if they just happen to find these things somewhat more interesting than certain people, "atypical" just goes too far. Scorpionman 23:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  a typical vs. atypical 

message: The lead was just rewritten to add "however"s and "but"s, even though a recent peer review noted that the article uses "'but' a lot, which reads like the text is having an argument with itself". I just now changed the following text in the lead:
:"Many other causes have been proposed, but these proposals are generally controversial. One proposal is that the disorder is due to the exposure of children to vaccines; however there is no convincing scientific evidence to support the vaccine hypothesis."
(which had a "however" and a "but") to this:
:"Many other causes have been proposed, such as exposure of children to vaccines; these proposals are controversial and the vaccine hypotheses have no convincing scientific evidence."
which is briefer and has no qualifiers. Unless I'm missing something (and I may well be) shorter is better in this area. Eubulides 21:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's one example. Tim put in the "However" in the last sentence of the lead, but it appears to me that it's unnecessary now (this may be due to later modifications in this area). Here is the quote: "The number of diagnosed autism cases has increased dramatically since the 1980s. Some of this increase is undoubtedly due to changes in diagnostic practice. However, it is not known whether prevalence has increased as well." How about deleting that "However"? I left it in mostly because of Tim's reputation.… Eubulides 23:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "However"s and "but"s 

message: Why did Derek.cashman move History to the top?  I disagree, per long-standing discussions on the Medicine Project and WP:MEDMOS.  I don't understand his punctuation changes either.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History on top ? 

message: I have passed this article according to the Good Article Criteria.  I feel it is an excellent article, and was also very interesting to read.  It's informative to the outside reader, and I hope that it will continue to be improved further.  Although there are many sources, it might help to in-line cite more sentences.  Usually these are covered by sources cited elsewhere, but it would be good to cite them everywhere a citation might be necessary.  Keep up the good work! Cheers, Corvus coronoides 20:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Passed

message: Hi all. I'm going to be making intermittent copy-edits and try to work my way through the article. I'm not fact-checking or correcting anything, but just trying to make what I understand as the meaning a bit more clear and less technical. Please check this as I go along and make sure I don't introduce any inaccuracies. Thanks Tim Vickers 03:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the help; I made some followup changes. On a related subject I have also been editing Causes of autism, but that's another huge project and it won't be ready for serious review for quite some time I expect. Eubulides 04:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy-editing

message: I find it extremely repulsive that people have to have everyone always focusing on them. It's so selfish! If a person gets preoccupied with color or patterns on an object, somebody finds it offensive because he is not always constantly on the receiving end of everyone's attention! And they call it autism. Someone is not completely focused on people all the time, he's an autistic! They really over-diagnose these things, and most of it's based on egotism. This article (just so you know that this comment is relevant) should stop catering to those who demand constant attention from everyone. Really, it matters little if someone finds an object or animal more interesting than a person. That does not serve as a basis for a diagnosis of autism, that's just selfishness on the part of the person who is not recieving the "autistic"'s attention. Scorpionman 23:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Scorpion; if you have a source for this content, we could all discuss a way to make the text more generalized.  Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  over-diagnosing 

message: Text:  "Autism's incidence is less useful a statistic than its prevalence, as the disorder starts long before it is diagnosed, and the gap between initiation and diagnosis is influenced by many factors unrelated to risk. Instead, attention is focused mostly on whether prevalence is increasing with time. Earlier prevalence estimates were lower, centering at about 0.5 per 1,000 for autism during the 1960s and 1970s and about 1 per 1,000 in the 1980s, as opposed to today's 1–2 per 1,000.[12]"
The first part of that is an unusual statement.  I suspect it is simply wrong, but I don't know why it was written so I've not just changed it.  Epidemiologists are likely to consider both incidence and prevalence as interesting and useful, but in  different ways.  Regardless of the incidence, the known prevalence of a newly noted disease will increase with time, at least until a human lifespan later or unless another diagnosis or division into diagnoses replaces the initial one.  Changes in incidence related temporally to other events may suggest causation, and the planning of future services depends on current incidence, while the running of current services depends on current prevalence. The gap between the start of a disease and its diagnosis does not cause trouble beyond the book-keeping ones, for a disease induced early in life or present at birth the concentration is on birth cohorts (all the children born in a particular period, say 1983).  Prevalence doesn't tell us much about risk, incidence is almost exactly that.  Midgley 04:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct about incidence rates and risk, of course. The text attempted to summarize the following extended quote from the cited source (Newschaffer et al. 2007): "The most commonly reported measures of autism frequency are point prevalence or period prevalence. Incidence rates, despite their theoretical advantages for studying risk, are of more limited utility in autism epidemiology because not only is autism diagnosis distal to disease initiation but also time between initiation and diagnosis is likely influenced by a wide range of other factors potentially unrelated to risk. Cumulative incidence, however, may be informative for descriptive epidemiologic studies of birth cohorts." I made this change to try to clarify the point without going into too much detail. Epidemiology and service provisioning have somewhat different goals, and Newschaffer et al. have little to say about the latter; if we can have a reliable source on the latter then it would be nice to add. Eubulides 05:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to sound too plonking, but "not only is autism diagnosis distal to disease initiation" - I know of no diseases diagnosed proximal to disease initiation.  I'm not familiar with Newschaffer or al but that doesn't seem like an insight.  Many - if not most - diseases are influenced by a range, sometimes wide, of other factors, potentially unrelated to risk also.  A point of studying incidence rather than prevalence is that one can identify those influences.  Newschaffer's an epidemiologist, yes?  Midgley 00:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Newschaffer et al. quote is comparing autism to the likes of (say) strep throat, where disease initiation and diagnosis are separated by a matter of days, as compared to autism where the separation is months or even years. You're correct that this is not a huge insight—on the contrary, it's pretty obvious—but it does help to explain why incidence rates are less useful in autism epidemiology. The Newschaffer et al. "unrelated to risk" remark is about the time difference between initiation and diagnosis, not about the factors influencing disease. To learn a bit more about Newschaffer et al. you can visit its web page. You are correct that incidence rates for autism, if we knew them, would be more helpful for assessing risk, but the point of Newschaffer et al. is that we don't know them. To answer your last question, yes, Newschaffer is an epidemiologist: as Drexel's info page for him says, he chairs the Dept. of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at Drexel, and formerly was in the Dept. of Epidemiology at Johns Hopkins where he founded and directed the Center for Autism and Developmental Disabilities Epidemiology. Eubulides 00:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  usefulness of epidemiological statistics 

message: We discussed this earlier in the development of this article.  There's a proposal to merge stimming and stereotypy (psychiatry).  My understanding has always been that they are subtly different entities, but I don't have the knowledge to explain further.  Any help in resolving/clarifying?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussion at Talk:Stereotypy (psychiatry).  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Stereotypy is apparently purposeless movement, such as hand flapping, head rolling, body rocking, or spinning a plate. Sometimes it is called self-stimulation or "stimming", though stereotypy and stimming are somewhat different notions.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks, I fixed that by removing the 2nd sentence. Eubulides 23:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related content 

message: The recent peer review effort seems to be dying down. The last comment was by Colin four days ago; he's worked his way to the end of Autism#Epidemiology and has only the last section Autism#History left to review (I hope the autism treatment that Luther suggested didn't scare him off…). Wikipedia:Peer review currently lists Autism as 128th out of 147 on the list; at some point it'll fall off the end of the list, but I don't know when that will be. Tomorrow I plan to finish the merge with Early infantile autism as it will have been two weeks since the merge was proposed without any opposition (or even any discussion after the day of proposal). I hope Tim Vickers is still interested in reviewing but I realize his time is quite limited.
I consumed my recent free time cleaning up Causes of autism; it's now much better than it was and it's no longer embarrassing having it be the main article for Autism#Causes so I've now marked it as the main article rather than being "For further information". By the way, the Roberts et al. paper published today is quite the coolest result in years on autism's possible environmental factors but its results are too preliminary to be in the main article so I put it into Causes of autism.
Is there anything else that should get done before submitting Autism as a featured article candidate? Must this wait until Autism falls off the end of the peer review list? Eubulides 17:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's ready.  If you want to remove the peer review from WP:PR, I'll add it to articlehistory here.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it normally just fall off the end of Wikipedia:Peer review? That'd be OK, but if the existence of an outstanding peer-review request would hurt the FA chances then by all means let's move it. Eubulides 18:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, someone has to actually close the review; do you want me to do it and archive it?  Technically, according to instructions at both places, you can't be at PR and FAC at the same time, so it must be closed if you're ready to go.  I'll do it if you say the word.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, please do. Eubulides 20:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: PS, the other you could do if you want is to request an A-class assessment at WikiProject Medicine.  I'd say it's A-class, but I can't assess since I've been involved. A-class isn't a necessary step—only if you want.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the suggestion. How does that work? I visited Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine, clicked on "Article rating", and found that it was a dangling link. How much delay is typical for the assessment process? I noticed you mentioned current efforts on Causes of autism and Heritability of autism on the talk page but so far it's just been you and me editing there. (I hope Causes of autism is passable now, but cleaning up Heritability of autism would be a big project, maybe even bigger than Autism was.) Eubulides 18:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well ... ummmm .... It doesn't work, yet :-)  It's new.  Better to post a talk page message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine requesting an A-class assessment.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks, I did that. Eubulides 20:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Self-nomination. This former Featured Article was demoted on 2006-12-17 due to many  tags, weasel words, undercitation, and lack of conformance to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (medicine-related articles). Since then it has been heavily rewritten to fix the above-mentioned problems, with the goal of making it the best encyclopedia-style reference for autism available anywhere. It has gone through a peer review and reached Good Article status. The article is 72 kb in total size, with 38 kb of readable text.
Comments and/or edits welcome; this would be only my 2nd FAC so I'm by no means an expert here. Eubulides 18:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Be sure to link to the FARC in the nomination, indicating that it's an FFA that has already been on the main page.  (See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Octopus card—this makes Raul's job easier.)  I wouldn't mention evaluation of the daughter articles; that's not necessary.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Strike.  Silly me.  I already set that up, days ago.  Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Autism.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the talk page has reached 80KB, so let me know if you want a month-end archive.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes please, and thanks. And I struck out the sub-article sentence. Eubulides 20:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, archive the peer review, archive the talk page, or both?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both, please. Thanks. Eubulides 20:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for featured article candidate? 

message: Here's a draft for a featured article nomination for Autism.
:Self-nomination. This former Featured Article was demoted on 2006-12-17 due to many  tags, weasel words, undercitation, and lack of conformance to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (medicine-related articles). Since then it has been heavily rewritten to fix the above-mentioned problems, with the goal of making it the best encyclopedia-style reference for autism available anywhere. It has gone through a peer review and reached Good Article status. The article is 72 kb in total size, with 38 kb of readable text.
Comments and/or edits welcome; this would be only my 2nd FAC so I'm by no means an expert here. Eubulides 18:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Be sure to link to the FARC in the nomination, indicating that it's an FFA that has already been on the main page.  (See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Octopus card—this makes Raul's job easier.)  I wouldn't mention evaluation of the daughter articles; that's not necessary.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Strike.  Silly me.  I already set that up, days ago.  Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Autism.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the talk page has reached 80KB, so let me know if you want a month-end archive.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes please, and thanks. And I struck out the sub-article sentence. Eubulides 20:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, archive the peer review, archive the talk page, or both?  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both, please. Thanks. Eubulides 20:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Draft of featured article nomination