Talk:Papua (province)/Archive 2

message: Dear John, I said I have a personal view. I said it was NOT in the article, that the article should ONLY contain facts, NOT promote one agenda over another.Daeron
Jayapura is 1,800Km further away from Java than East Timor and the Indonesian border there. West Papua's only population was Papuan and a handful of Dutchmen; the people of West Papua had never seen a Javanese person before 1961. Like the Japanese invasion of Papua during the Pacific War the Melanesians of West Papua decided within weeks that they wanted these Asian Malay people to take their guns and go back to their home in Java Indonesia.Daeron
I state again, the article SHOULD STATE THE REASONABLY KNOWN FACTS AND nothing more.Daeron
I have no idea what you're arguing with me about anymore.  All I'm saying is that  the article should say that the province of Papua is part of Indonesia, since there is no dispute under international law that it is part of Indonesia, and that we should avoiding referring to it as "Western Papua", primarily, because that is the name applied to it by a separatistgroup, and to use it would be POV.  I have no objection to a frank discussion of the history of the region. john 19:39, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: THat was it? The last time I saw read the article, it did say that. Except I replaced 'province' with 'territory' ; because of the reasons I specified four days before the edit and Nobody commented or objected, so I proceeded with that edit. I think that's about when Wik deleted the article, and he moved it and reverts it and reverts it. and you never know which version he's reverted it to. He reverted again while I was editing. Meanwhile I've got matterial and would like to write the first versions of following parts of the article:
*Tribal & other Regions (I've only just found a map of the Indonesian regions inside West Papua, that's what was hold this stuff up)
*Geography
*Ecology
*Economics
*Demographics
*Cultures
But I havn't been willing to edit it since Tannin kindly came over to give a hand with this Wik silliness. I prefer a rational environment that isn't trying to wind me up. I'm the ASJ that wrote the thing back in 2001. As better information became available I just wanted to return every so often to update the thing. See if anyone else had added to it, to date there hadn't been much. this time I could at last add the Melanesian issue. Driven the Papuans nuts for for years; they say they're Melanesian and get challenged on it. Well at last there's generic tracks on top of the blood work, and at last the people at Stanford have settled that issue. Not only are they Melanesian, but as a race Melanesians definatly came from Papua (the geographic item, the Island, not neither of the two Papua sub-regions) in the first place. So everyone in the Moluccas are correct when they say they are Papuan.Daeron 20:42, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Facts are Facts

message: John said something about "pro-Indonesian (or pro-US, for that matter" , did you think West Papuan Independance is anti-American? It's not, they don't care about 1962, or that the Indonesians were using US manufactured guns at that time. That's just an historical trivial item. I don't imagine anyone at the Whitehouse considers West Papua as a threat to US interests. Their support of Indonesia stems from a steady stream of pro-Indonesia rethoric initiated by the Ford Foundation. By time Indonesia invaded West Papua, the CIA had invested ten years of work on creating a pro-US business elite in Indonesia; not an evil plan; and it wasn't the CIA who thought it up, the RAND Corp. was talked into it by the Ford Foundation which had been involved in flying the Indonesian elite families around the US in 1945-49. Soedjatmoko was a product of the Ford Foundation.
I do wonder what the US President was told in 1962; because the three organisations that gave primary advise about the 'Domino effect', where the same three who had over ten years invested in the Indonesian military Generals. <SMALL>(I don't imagine they would have expected a democratic President would approve of the Ford plan if told of it)</small>. Added to that, any study of the Indonesian elite who formed government and their behaviour before & after, there was no way in hell they were ever going to invite the Soviets in. Meanwhile the business plan which Soedjatmoko had proposed a decade before was still in the works, Ford Foundation records state that their original plan to use the land owning elite was changed in the 1950's because the Indonesian Military Generals were found to be more eager to offer favourable business arrangements in exchange for political assistance. It paid-off when Gen. Suharto took effective power in 1965, at which point he was able to offer sweat-shop factories, the wealth of Borneo, the wealth of Papua which his men had invaded a few years eariler. Put into those terms, isolated from other issues, perfectly good plan.
Why do you think the contract for Freeport was signed in 1967, two years before the "Act of Free Choice"? Because Henry Kissingers company had an assuraance from the Military that the Vote go go their way. And it did, according to the Indonesians 1022 out of 1022 (this number varies a bit according to source 1022-1025) selected voters all voted for the Military to stay in control of their country. An unanimous vote, how often do you see that?
Why did Kissinger advise Pres. Ford to support the Indonesian invasion of East Timor in 1975; some people think that board member of Freport McMoRan Inc. Mr Kissinger didn't want the Indonesian military to get upset and revoke the Freeport License; other people think it was in the national interest of the US for un-specified reasons. Again, we don't know.
Much of the real truth, we can not know, but there are things we do know and do have reasonable evidence of. The document I quoted, the US State Dept. summary of Foreign Policies for S.E.Asia 1962 where the third paragraph says JFK decided to gve West Papua to Indonesia due to the Soviet threat, is also one of those facts. And it helps Americans to understand why their nation apparantly supported the Indonesian invasion at that time.
I would also hope, that if the US President (John F Kennedy) had known of the Ford plans which came to light ten years later, that he would have doubted the validity of the think-tank's alleged Soviet domino threat, and have told the Indonesians to withdraw from West Papua. Nobody said America evil, please don't read that into it; the US Pres. was lead to believe that there was an imminent danger of being run-over by the Soviets unless the Indonesians were made happy with the US. I think that threat was illusion, and it was unfortunate. THat's all.
----
FYI: I have NO intention of any of the above Ford stuff to be mentioned in the West Papua article. It goes outside the scope of an encyclopedia coverage IMHO. Also, I only know of one book where the above Ford Foundation records are bibographed and summarized. I don't imagine the Foundation is ever going to give open access to those records again. And I don't think a single book published in 1970 is enough to base an encyclopedia article upon. That the book was never challenged, that the Ford Foundation then spent years disassocuating itself from the Ford family & companies; Mr Henry Fords personal beliefs from 1915-1947. Are all consistant. I mention it for your information only.I believe it is suitable for personal understanding, just not enough to base another publication upon.
BTW I'm not anti-Kennedy either, in fact it's the Robert F Kennedy Memorial Human Rights Center that's been supporting West Papuan independance and human rights reports for the pass ten years. Both it and and US State Department, are independantly funded.Daeron 10:40, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Explaning Ford Foreign Policy Plans