Talk:Subud/Archive 2

message: An anonymous editor removed what appears to be a lot of text from this article.  (I think it was R.)  While I see a lot of good changes, there are some I don't agree with.  If I had time to carefully compare the previous version with the current one, I suppose I'd want to add a lot more back in, but I don't have time.  (BTW, I do like the "Pitfalls" rather than "downside" terminology.)  Unless I hear a good argument about why to leave out the bit on Crisis, in about a week or so I'll add it back into the article.  I think it's essential.  It's essential because this aspect of Subud is central to understanding what the latihan is.  Purification is very real in Subud, and even though it may be a disincentive and turn people off, we're not here in Wikipedia to present only the good things about Subud.  We have to present the whole picture.  
(I won't argue it here, but, we shouldn't be afraid of including these so-called "pitfalls" because they may easily be re-cast as benefits of the latihan!  This may be fleshed out more in additions to the article.  A section could be added which argues how, ultimately, there are no substantial pitfalls.  But that is further down the road, and, again, would have to be argued carefully so as to remain objective.)
Note that I don't disagree with removal of the text about Crisis.  Certainly, if anyone wants to make suggestions about how to change this text, that's great.  It's hard to respond to the removal of all the text because the editor didn't give any rationale for removing it, he/she just went in and made changes.  (By "didn't give any rationale for removing it" I mean they didn't discuss it on this Talk page first.)  As I said, I'll try to check back here within the next week and see if there's any rationale for not putting the text back into the article.  The text in question is below.
"While very rare, it must be mentioned that spiritual purification and improvement sometimes has a price in temporary lowering of psychological functioning. This rare state is most often termed “spiritual crisis” by Subud members, and can last from a few hours to a few weeks. The person may have challenges carrying out the normal activities of their life. The Helpers are charged with the responsibility of aiding a person in this state, and other Subud members support them as well. Normally, this situation is remedied very quickly. Again, the person affected is always in control of his or her actions, and thus there is no physical danger. This kind of situation is not unique to Subud, as spiritual crisis has parallels in our culture: The mystical literature speaks of the “Dark night of the soul”; in 1978, Stanislav Grof started the Spiritual Emergence Network (SEN) to deal with spiritual crisis; people who have Near death experience sometimes need special help or counseling; practitioners of Yoga and other systems often experience states of ecstasy or increased energy (kundalini) such that interventions are required to help them gain balance, etc."
Aloah, Aliman 03:34, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A Lot of Material Removed

message: There's a new suggestion to simplify the bit on crisis:
"It is suggested that the beginner in Subud only practice the latihan in two one-half hour sessions per week. Doing more than this, especially when one is a beginner in Subud, can create an imbalance in an individual's life that the founder of Subud termed a 'crisis'. Such spiritual crises are not uncommon in spiritual practices that expose the practioner to previously untapped resources for purification and growth."
This will go to the article in a week or so contingent upon any comments.
Aloha, Aliman 05:15, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New Suggestion for Crisis

message: I deleted the new edit:  "or though oher spirtual experiances" under the heading "Becoming a Member."  Not only was there three spelling errors, but I'm not sure about the rationale behind the addition.  First, it would help to have a "person" to discuss this with rather than just a "number," so I wonder if the editor can log onto Wikipedia with a username before they make edits?  Second, I can understand if someone wants to claim that a person may receive the latihan in a way other than a traditional opening (thus the comment about being opened through "other spiritual experiences"), but this idea is too complex to treat with with just part of a sentence, especially given the introductory nature of the article.  I suggest that the editor write another section where this idea is fully explained.  Aloha, Aliman 17:25, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Question about addition

message: There have been no comments from the the person who remomved the material on "crisis" so I'll add a revised version back:  
It is suggested that the beginner in Subud only practice the latihan in two one-half hour sessions per week. Doing more than this, especially when one is a beginner in Subud, can create an imbalance in an individual's life that the founder of Subud termed a 'crisis'. Such spiritual crises are not uncommon in spiritual practices that expose the practioner to previously untapped resources for purification and growth (e.g., the mystical literature speaks of the “Dark night of the soul”; in 1978, Stanislav Grof started the Spiritual Emergence Network (SEN) to deal with spiritual crisis; practitioners of Yoga and other systems often experience states of increased energy (kundalini) such that interventions are required to help them gain balance, etc.).  Aliman 19:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No Comments--I'll make changes

message: I removed the "Latihan/Holy Spirit" link because it is somewhat misleading (although in innocent ways) and is riddled with factual errors.  
First, the latihan is not an exercise embedded in a series of other exercises as the context and structure of the website implies.  In fact, it's best if the latihan is not mixed with meditation and exercises.  (The popular translation of "latihan" into English as "exercise" itself is misleading--the latihan isn't an exercise like pushups or like meditation.  Latihan either "happens" spontaneously without effort, will, and concentration of the mind, or it doesn't happen.  With meditation, one willfully and purposefully sits down and concentrates with the mind and meditates.  Latihan and meditation are two very different things.)
Second, latihan was not introduced in the beginning of the 20th century.  Muhammed Subuh was born in the beginning of the 20th century.  He passed the latihan contact on to friends and relatives in the 1930's, and it became a registered organization in Indonesia in the 1940's, and was registered in the USA in the 1960's (it could have been registered in the 1950's, but I think it was the 1960's). 
Third, Muhammed Subuh was not a Sufi and never claimed to be (nor was he identified by others as one).  
Fourth, his name is misspelled (it's "Muhammed Subuh" not "Mohammed Subukh").  
Fifth, it says that Bapak "...taught this method to Catholic monks and healed with it many diseased people...".  There are three errors here.  One is that there is no "method" to teach.  Bapak didn't teach anyone a method.  As I said above, this is totally spontaneous and no learning or other preparation is required.  In fact, the strength of Subud is that there no teaching or method or dogmatic beliefs required.  Regarding the monks, it's certainly possible that one or two "Catholic monks" were opened into Subud, but it would have been only because they came along with the hundreds of people to Comb Springs and other places that Bapak visited in the 1950's and 1960's to be opened.  If any monks were opened, it had little to do with them being monks per se.  I suspect the Catholic Church would either not condone this, or would be very skeptical of permitting priests/nuns, etc. being opened in Subud.  Regarding healing, Bapak healed very few people (Eva Bartok being one) because the latihan is more of a way of living rather than a tool to be used to discern the future or to heal.  In a few extraordinary circumstances Bapak healed people, but his main concern was that people simply do the latihan for themselves thus enabling them to receive directly whatever they needed, physical healing being only one of many benefits.
Sixth, the webpage says:  "This technique [latihan] consists in addressing the Holy Spirit for help and asking Him to concentrate above one’s head (one needs to become aware of Him there) and then to “shower” Himself down through one’s body as through an empty shell or transparent bottle without a bottom."  This is very much in error, and is utterly antithetical to latihan.  It's entirely misleading.  The latihan isn't necessarily about the Holy Spirit (or even about God), and the latihan certainly does not entail asking anything or anyone above your head to shower down through you!  In addition, the footnote to this paraphrase is to a non-Subud source.  Such a technique is no doubt what the author of the webpage thinks the latihan is about.  The latihan is a subjective experience, and so maybe the author of the webpage is a Subud member and maybe this is how they experience the latihan (although it is doubtful because usually the latihan is different for different people, and more than that it's different each time for each person).  So, such a description of the latihan is entirely misleading.
Seventh, the paragraph that begins, "Having surrendered to the Stream coming through it, the body starts dancing and performing other smooth and harmonious movements…" is again misleading.  There isn't necessarily anything "smooth and harmonious" about it.  Sometimes there is, but a better description is much wider because basically anything can happen in the latihan--sometimes one has a terribly discordant and difficult experience.  The description on the webpage sounds like a "New ager" concentrating on some idealized version of the latihan.  (BTW, Subud also doesn't necessarily have anything to do with New Age.  In fact, most people in Subud are very far from the New Age mentality.)
Eighth, the webpage says "we may try to imagine ourselves… in paradise, under a heavenly waterfall, immersed in the tender sunlight..." whereas in latihan one must put aside the mind totally and does not TRY to do anything.  One should not imagine anything (ironically, one should not try to do anything--not even try to not do anything!)
Ninth, the webpage says "In order for the laya dance (the dance of “dissolution”) to start, being guided by the Holy Spirit, we should stand on the tip-toes and raise our hands..."  Again, there is no "dance of dissolution" or any other such thing associated with the latihan.  In latihan there are no techniques--no standing on toes or sitting cross-legged or any specified actions or comportments.  However, it is recommended that when a person is doing latihan for the first time that they begin it while standing up because sometimes it's easier to "follow" when the body is free because the movements in the beginning may be more difficult for some to feel.  (However again, some people newly opened in Subud feel the latihan much more strongly than those who have been doing it for 20 years or more--again, it's different for different people.) 
Tenth, (and finally, whew!) the official recommendation of Subud as an organization is that one should NOT do what the webpage is suggesting, which is to attempt to do latihan on your own.  The explanation for this is more complex, and I won't argue it here.
All-in-all the authors of the webpage don’t seem to know much about Subud or the latihan, thus it seems like this is not a good link for the objectivity that is required in Wikipedia.  Aliman 22:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Somewhat Misleading Link

message: "Ozielke" made a change to the article.  I agree with the change.  Although, it would be nice to discuss changes here (on this Discussion page) first.  E.g., it's not absolutely the case that men and women do latihan seperately all the time, even when they "practice in groups."  Prio opened a bunch of women, husbands and wives do latihan together (although only with the two partners alone), etc.
Aloha, Aliman 23:51, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: DISCUSS FIRST, FOLKS

message: Under the section "Doctrines and Rules of Subud" it says:  "Bapak acknowledged the divine source of the major religions, and never claimed that Subud is more effective than the alternatives - he is on record as saying that Subud does not have a monopoly on God, and that to believe otherwise is simple arrogance. He did indicate, however, that the latihan may be more expedient in the context of the modern world than, for example, vanishing to an ashram or monastery for months at a time in the quest for inner peace."
I'm a little concerned about Subud being described as an alternative to religion. A person may be involved in the latihan and practice a religion at the same time.
Re. the first part of the first sentence, I suggest something like this:  "Bapak acknowledged the divine source of the major religions, and never claimed that Subud has a special religious or spiritual standing - he is on record..." Unless someone makes a compelling counterargument, I'll make that change in a few days.
There's also been many major changes to the article since I saw it last. These changes weren't discussed. That's fine--there's no requirement to do so, but it may mean many changes and then counter-changes if people don't agree.  For example, the word "God" is used a lot, and because Subud doesn't necessarily hinge on the idea of God, this word has to be used with caution. E.g., Subud is certainly open to practicing Jains, but they are not theists (there's no concept of a creator God).
As time permits, I may be suggesting and making some changes. I'll try to post here first for discussion, however.
Aloha, Aliman 03:20, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternative to Religion?----Too much God language?

message: Let's also look at the appropriateness of this link. Is it written by a harmless disgruntled member, or is it disinformation? I'm leaning somewhat toward the latter. Aliman 03:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-Subud??

message: I just changed one--it hinted that married couples to latihan together reguarly. This isn't true. Another is regarding testing--it says mainly that it's used to "appoint Staff across the WSA."  This is silly. That's like saying a pen is used to write a novel. It's true, but fairly pathetic in terms of communicating, really, what a pen is.  At some point I'll be able to turn toward the article and make some changes. Aliman 03:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The article has changed a lot and has some major flaws

message: Hey Rogerf7777,
I like how you delete the only critical external link. Good show on making Subud appear paranoid about criticism!
Anyway, I put it back, lest this page become some lukewarm attempt at propaganda.
Cheers, dude. See you around.
Ryan
59.120.151.225 07:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of Subud Link 

message: If anyone is still around, I wanted to inform you that I'm going to try to create a category for Subud. There's information about working with categories at Wikipedia:Categorization.--Kineticman 09:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Subud