Talk:Human/Archive 15

message: Yes, the article does need shortening. but removing a whole section without discussion is absurd. I've cut most of it back in, considerably shortening the religion section, cutting much out of the other sections. The following seems to me to be not needed:
Although many species are social, forming groups based on genetic ties, affection, self-defense, or shared food gathering and distribution, humans are distinguished by the variety and complexity of the institutions that they form, both for individual and group survival and for the preservation and development of technology and knowledge. Group identity and acceptance can exert a powerful influence on individual behaviour, yet humans are also able to form and adapt to new groups. An individual may develop strong feelings of loyalty towards such groups.
Sociology is the science that describes the interaction of human beings, while cultural anthropology describes different human societies.
The human individual often develops a particularly strong attachment to a small group, typically including his closest biological relatives: his mother, father, and siblings. A similarly strong attachment may be forged with a small group of equals, resulting in peer groups of individuals of similar age, typically of the size of ten to twenty individuals, possibly related to the optimal size of a hunting party. Group dynamics and peer pressure may substantially influence the behaviour of group members. (See also Asch conformity experiments.)
Larger groups of humans can be unified by notions of common ancestry (tribes, ethnicities, nations) or common geographical location and material interests (states), which are often further divided into social classes and hierarchical structures. A tribe may consist of a few hundred individuals, while the largest modern state, China, contains over a billion. Violent conflicts between states are called wars. Loyalty to a larger group of this type is called nationalism or patriotism. In extreme cases, feelings of loyalty towards an institution or authority can become pathological, leading to mass hysteria or fascism. (See also Milgram experiment, Stanford prison experiment.)
Banno 02:38, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
:I also find it to be POV. Sam Spade 15:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shorten 

message: What does this paragraph have to do with the article? I think it would better fit in the "people" article (though that is a disambiguation page) or perhaps on Wiktionary. It definitely strikes me as an oddity to see it in the "Homo sapiens" article. LjL 5 July 2005 23:10 (UTC)
I agree. I deleted it  It was put back. I encouage others to delete it. Wikipedia is not a dictionary and the "people" defintion section is only a definition. 4.250.168.117 07:22, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word "people" 

message: I am uncertain as to if the majority of people do indeed practice monagamy, and dubious about anyones ability to verify that. In my academic studies, I have seen rather striking evidence that extra-marital affairs are quite commonplace. There are also a large number of singles who play the field, as well as a hearty number of polygamists from Muslim and indiginous backgrounds. Additionally, if we are to take into account the historical perspective, everyone from Christians to Jews to pagans accross the map engaged in polygamy, pederasty, and who knows what else. How about we just leave the emphasis on monogamy where it is now? ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 6 July 2005 20:23 (UTC)
:I think the sucess rate of monogomy is not quite the point. The social norm dictates that monogomy is the most ok, but in a simpler sence, imagining if we were little green men watching from outspace, the majoirty of human beings seem to break off into monogomous pairs. I remerber hearing evidence that even mate for life birds occasionally stray from "true" fidelity and monogomy, but they do still pair in one male one female. I think its worth noting anyway--Tznkai 6 July 2005 23:52 (UTC)
::The problem is, i don't agree that people usually do that. In your culture and mine perhaps, but over all? I'd have to see some mighty evidence. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 7 July 2005 00:39 (UTC)
:::Well, I won't reinstate the edit since my edit summary said "I think this is reasonable" meaning I didn't feel it needed to be supported by a refrence. Since you do, I will not repost it until I have some refrences. As for most, I have very little doubt in my assertion. Approximatly one sixth of the world is Chinese, a fairly secular culture with historical marriage systems involving the transfer of a woman from one family to her husbands. The modern chinese system I believe even has laws against bigomy. Cultures influenced by abrahamic religions seem to be monogomous. Most populated countries are, what? India, Russia, US, Various parts of europe, China, all as I recall have monogomy as a social norm and as I mentioned as individual mating pairs. While I do not doubt that there is plenty of straying (oh gods there is) the primary association pattern is still monogomous. Will dig up refrences when I have time (hopefully within the week)--Tznkai 7 July 2005 01:02 (UTC)
::::Thanks, I'll do the same. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 7 July 2005 15:34 (UTC)
Prior to colonialism, sexuality and gender varied greatly among Asians. Among the Bugis people, now part of the Indonesian nation, a third gender consisting of men dressed in women’s clothes-- akin to the Native-American Berdache--was accepted. The Minangkabao people, also now part of Indonesia, were a matrilineal society. Among the Chinese, polygamy was practiced. Everyone lived in families that were multi-generational. I do not mean to suggest that these arrangements are better, but the situation was more diverse and complex. Homogeneity came with the advent of colonialism and industrial capitalism—and abetted by Protestantism, Max Weber would say—so that today sexuality, and family and gender roles have become monogamous, patriarchal, single-generational, and exclusively heterosexual.
 AMONG MANY PEOPLES OF THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY THE SOUTH CHINESE, POLYGAMY IS FREQUENTLY FOUND. THE PRACTICE HAD ITS ORIGIN IN THE CHINESE CONCERN FOR HEIRS. If a man had no progeny his legal wife, he took another and a third if the second failed to come up to expectations...
Monogamy#Human_monogamy
The myth of monogamy
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Some very intresting resources. Partiucualry martiabachelor which has a horrific format. The myth of monogomy is a great article. I think we need to clarify then if monogomy is defined as a pair-bonding (social monogomy) a primary system (mostly monogomous, with infedelity on the side), or an exclusive system (sex with only one mate, anything outside of that fails to qualify as monogomy. Finally then, which does the social norm refer to?--Tznkai 7 July 2005 16:29 (UTC)
:Well, frankly, I think were on a fast train to some rather brilliant and fascinating original research. Sex being such a.. sexy subject, we could probably even get a research grant. My guess is that since nearly every culture has its own ideosyncratic sexual mores and taboo's, human being probably have very few concrete instincts and objective, non-cultural behaviours on the subject. Obviously the pursuit of intercourse and intimacy, and the desire to protect and nurture ones offspring must be there, or we'd never have gotten so far as we have, but.. beyond that? I'd love to see an impressive, comprehensive study done on the subject, but despite my research (I'm a psyche major, w alot of interest in sociology) I am unaware of one. My thought is to leave the article vague on the subject, or cite some of little research avalable. Maybe I'll put it in the running for my masters thesis ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 7 July 2005 20:47 (UTC)
::The mention that monogomy is the majority probably isn't as important as noting that sexuality seems to be responsive to both social norms and biology. Think we can find a refrence to back that statement up?--Tznkai 7 July 2005 20:55 (UTC)
:Absolutely, and we won't need one unless someone disputes it, which I certainly won't. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 7 July 2005 20:57 (UTC)
Here are a couple of links ,. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 21:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monogamy 

message: Hey Mel Etitis, I'd appreciate a bit more explanation than the above for a revert like . Actually, no amount of explanation would have been sufficient, since it was not a place to revert, but rather to discuss and edit towards compromise. Careful with those guns, the wikipedia is not a place to shoot first, and ask questions never, esp. in regards to reverting multiple editors in their non-vandalism edits. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 15:57, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We've been though this before, which was why I didn't bother explaining.  You know full well that different pantheists have all sorts of beliefs about the nature of human beings in relation to god or the world; your change was tendentious and PoV. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 18:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

text: OK, lets look them over:
*Pantheism holds that human beings, as spiritual beings interwoven into a spiritual universe, are a part of God, who is completely immanent. Panentheism is similar, but holds that God is transcendent as well as immanent. Monism, Animism, Vedic and other forms of Eastern philosophy have related beliefs.
*Pantheism holds that human beings, as part of the world, are a part of God, who is identified with the world (and vice versa). (Panentheism is similar, but holds that the world is God, but that God is more than the world. Monism, animism, Vedic religion, and other forms of Eastern philosophy have related beliefs.
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I obviously prefer the first, but I even more strongly disagree with reverting multiple editors making multiple non-vandalism edits to different sections. Reverting my correction of Omar Khayyám was not a proper usage of the revert function, by any stretch. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 20:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  rv to last edit by RV