Talk:Whitechapel murders

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: While closely examining this image of Whitechapel, I noticed there is a Buckle Street under the "A" in WHITECHAPEL. Is anyone aware of a person connected with the Ripper case who lived in Buckle Street? A long shot, but maybe the Ripper was giving a clue when he wrote "till I do get buckled". Akld guy (talk) 19:16, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buckled 

message: Given that the work of Hallie Rubenhold has shed considerable doubt on whether some of the victims were prostitutes at all, should this be reflected in the article? Beginning The Five with the idea of focusing on the most famous sex workers in history, Rubenhold was shocked by what she found while searching through coroner inquests, medical, workhouse and police records, and sensationalist newspaper reports – or rather, what she didn’t find. There was no evidence that three of the women – Polly, Annie and Catherine – were sex workers at all. Instead, Polly and Catherine had worked as domestic servants or in laundries, and Annie was supported by her husband, who worked as a private coachman. (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/01/hallie-rubenhold-jack-the-ripper-victims) Sheila1988 (talk) 15:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Fringe theorist. This work has not been vetted and does not have any acceptance among scholars. She doesn't want anyone else speculating (reliable sources have placed it in print) but she is free to engage in "She was unmarried and pregnant – probably by her employer". This needs to be reviewed by academics before it would be suitable here. "At times, she had to stop writing as she was “so upset and furious” at the ways society had failed the five." Red flag. She equates a so-called lack of evidence that some were prostitutes as meaning it never existed. Much of the records were destroyed in WWI and WWII from fire and The Blitz. While this book is being marketed but not yet vetted by academics, it should not be included. — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly a fringe theory. Virtually all other sources, and we're talking hundreds if not thousands of sources, say they were prostitutes. It's undue weight to alter the article on the basis of one ill-researchedcontroversial book. DrKay (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Hmmn. But it is not really in doubt that the victims were sex workers. I suspect praise for her work comes more from focusing attention on the victims and away from the killer, and treating them more roundly and fairly. Looking at the lives of ordinary people rather than extraordinary ones is not something attempted by most popular history. She's right, in my personal opinion, in criticizing the lack of any real documentation and the over-reliance of Ripperologists on newspaper reports that most professional historians would treat with skepticism. It's like trying to write a history of Obama's presidency by only looking at the Daily Mail. However, even given all that, you've admitted yourself that "Ripperologists ... attempt to discredit the work". That's our point: the book has received criticism from what wikipedians would consider reliable sources in the topic area. Wikipedia does not choose between opposing viewpoints: it represents all viewpoints with their due weight in the relevant literature. Her view is not yet the consensus view of the relevant literature. DrKay (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: So, if the consensus view was sexist or racist (for example) that would stand, and you would prevent someone with research pointing to something that contradicted that from having their work discussed because racists and sexists disagreed with it? Why not allow a contradictory view to be expressed, especially if that contradictory view has been widely applauded by scholars? New theories will always be challenged by those attempting to maintain the orthodoxy - it doesn't make the orthodox position expressed correct, however, if you prevent any discussion of those new theories, you are upholding what may be incorrect information and preventing the free-exchange of knowledge. The Five is controversial because it challenges the assumption that the women were all prostitutes. The author puts together a very convincing argument to the contrary based on the legitimacy of sources and their contexts which are often misread by Ripperologists who are not historians and do not have professional training.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  'Fringe theorists' are exactly the ones who win prizes. Nobody gets a prize, or even published, for agreeing with conventional thinking. Rubenhold admits in Hallie Rubenhold on her Battle with the Ripperologists to excluding evidence she thought was unreliable. This is obviously subjective an based on her personal opinion of what of the existing evidence is reliable. This makes the book a personal opinion rather than an authoritative work. --John B123 (talk) 16:35, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  'non-expert' and 'non-academic'? I presume that's directed at someone else? You appear to have conflated me with another editor (or two). DrKay (talk) 16:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

text: Look at it from our side: the far more likely scenario (and one that arises frequently) is that someone somewhere says something racist, sexist, or ignorant; an editor comes along and tries to shoehorn those views into wikipedia. We use our policies of verifiability, neutrality and consensus to ensure that those fringe opinions are not represented with anymore emphasis than they deserve. We must have these rules to protect the encyclopedia from those who would use it to push an agenda outside the mainstream. DrKay (talk) 16:52, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Push an agenda outside the mainstream? You mean to offer an alternative view which is not misogynist? It's rather interesting that in this entire article, not a single female author is cited about a series of crimes which were all about the murder of women. Writing on Jack the Ripper is dominated by male authors, it's all written from a male point of view and focused on the murderer. Are you suggesting that until there is a massive groundswell of women writing books about Jack the Ripper which are accepted by a group of amateur, predominately male hobbyists with no qualifications in history, that a woman who has written an award winning, best selling nonfiction book on the subject which has been described by as groundbreaking by the academic establishment, will not be allowed to have her work mentioned on any pages concerning Jack the Ripper? That's called sexism.    — Preceding unsigned comment added by Year1 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't know what gender I am. Perhaps you should examine your own assumptions and prejudice? I am not going to converse with you anymore. I warned you about your confrontational, rude and abusive comments. You've continued them. DrKay (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   Which makes make the perspectives established before the records were destroyed far more credible than those compiled later based on only part of the evidence. --John B123 (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

text:  It's got nothing to do with her being a female, it's to do with the content of the book. --John B123 (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   Nor can you disprove an existing theory when much of the evidence it was based on is no longer available. --John B123 (talk) 18:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   I strongly advise you to read and understand WP:CONDUCT. Making things personal because people don't agree with you isn't acceptable. --John B123 (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

text: In answer to your question: a huge amount. There is a vast literature, in both the popular and scholarly fields, such as Richard Davenport-Hines and Alex Werner, curator at the Museum of London, both of whom are cited in the article. DrKay (talk) 18:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Rubenhold appears to think of prostitution as a formal job description, which, particularly in the context of the times, is a misunderstanding. Mary Kelly, the youngest of those concerned, may have earned a professional living in that line, but most of the others (and there were just five -- the article is misleading in attempting to corral obviously irrelevant cases into the main case) had simply fallen on hard times for one reason or another and in a couple of instances there are accounts that they were only on the the streets at the time because they didn't have the necessary threepence for a night's lodging, so presumably they had to earn it somehow or sleep rough. Rubenhold's emphasis on the five women -- as opposed to the unknown murderer, who was simply insane, and either killed himself or was committed to the asylum shortly after the last murder, giving the Metropolitan Police a clear shortlist which they were too incompetent to work through properly -- is just, but she doesn't appear to understand social conditions in Victorian London or the significance of losing caste and falling through into the depths, which could easily happen to a lot of people and which, in the case of women, would often result in prostitution. Khamba Tendal (talk) 20:05, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not happy with this latter-day revisionism. Prostitution is the acceptance of payment or gifts for sexual favours, no matter whether it's a career choice or a choice to do so because of hardship. Virtually all of these women blew their earnings on alcohol, making hardship a lame excuse. Akld guy (talk) 22:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  you state that "she doesn't appear to understand social conditions in Victorian London or the significance of losing caste and falling through into the depths, which could easily happen to a lot of people and which, in the case of women, would often result in prostitution." Have you read the book? what brought you to this conclusion? Having read the book, I think she took incredible care to show how easy it was to fall and lose everything, in fact a lot of these women did at one point or another, which she documents very well.  you state "these women blew their earnings on alcohol, making hardship a lame excuse" is a rather obtuse way of looking at their situations. At least one, Annie Chapman, was an alcoholic, and the others suffered immensely given the time and social classes they were born into. I would caution you against being so glib, since addiction is more complicated than that. --Lcrawfish (talk) 13:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

text: Have you read the book? ...and what info can you give us from that book that may be valuable to the JTR articles other than the controversial claim concerning prostitution? — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:04, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

text: I have read the book, and indeed there is a lot of information about the lives of the women that can, and probably should, be used, as well as other information about that time that could add additional information to other articles. A few examples include the fact the Nichols' lived on Stamford Street, which was one of George Peabody's tenements. What so interesting about these tenements is that Peabody, having no spouse or legitimate children, decided to contribute £150,000 towards building low-cost dwellings in London, which in the end was actually closer to £500,000, which, according to the book, would amount to about $60 million dollars today. These tenements were very nice for low-cost housing of the day and carried many stipulations. Perhaps this is not specific to the JTR articles, but is nevertheless could help provide more info to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Peabody#Philanthropy Additionally, related to Nichols, according to Rubenhold, she was allowed to attend school until the age of 15. This was very unusual for the time, although it was not necessarily unusual for children whose families where in the printing trade, because literacy would have been important. Also Mary Ann Nichols' marriage may have dissolved because their neighbor, Rosetta Woolls, who had been left by her husband and had to live with her mother and siblings, who ultimately married Mary Ann's husband after her death. Would this information be classified as valuable for the articles, in addition to her claim that some of the women may not have engaged in prostitution? --Lcrawfish (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

text: It does appear to pretty much be only her opinion which goes against over 100 years of research. That pretty much means its wp:fringe.Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

text: Lets wait till the DR is over.Slatersteven (talk) 11:11, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

text: Using scare quotes calls into question the term prostitute itself which we should not do in the voice of Wikipedia. Or we should simply use a term we don't need scare quotes for, "sex workers". —DIYeditor (talk) 07:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

text: The DRN case has been closed as "failed", refer to the RFC section that will come up in a few moments. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 23:30, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Prostitutes?

message: How is the idea that history mislabeled these women as prostitutes a fringe theory? I believe the sexism and classism of the time (as well as today) is well documented. Rubenhold takes great care to uncover the details of these women's lives, and calling into question these assumptions isn't "fringe" but rather an important and critical look at history and how it's been told. Furthermore, her stating that ""At times, she had to stop writing as she was “so upset and furious” at the ways society had failed the five." why is that a red flag? Doing research on the time would make any woman upset about how these women were failed, as so many at the time were. I think it is more of a red flag that so many of you criticizing Rubenhold's work haven't seemed to actually read it. --Lcrawfish (talk) 13:42, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It does appear to pretty much be only her opinion which goes against over 100 years of research. That pretty much means its wp:fringe.Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

text: Lets wait till the DR is over.Slatersteven (talk) 11:11, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

text: Using scare quotes calls into question the term prostitute itself which we should not do in the voice of Wikipedia. Or we should simply use a term we don't need scare quotes for, "sex workers". —DIYeditor (talk) 07:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Con'd 

message: A discussion on this subject has been opened at the Dispute resolution noticeboard. --John B123 (talk) 16:00, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The DRN case has been closed as "failed", refer to the RFC section that will come up in a few moments. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 23:30, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute resolution noticeboard

message: Users involved
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Dispute overview
Any mention of The Five; the Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper (2019) by Hallie Rubenhold is being systematically edited out of every page concerning the Whitechapel murders, as well as the biography pages of the five victims; Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, Mary Jane Kelly. The Five has won the 2019 Baillie Gifford Prize for nonfiction and is shortlisted for the 2020 Wolfson History Prize, the two most prestigious nonfiction awards in the UK. Wikipedia editors are banning any mention of it from Wikipedia pages claiming it is 'fringe'. The work has been universally recognised and applauded by some of the country's leading historians for its pains-taking research and thorough reevaluation of existing source material, but is considered anathema by amateur 'Ripperologists' who disagree with the argument put forward in the book that not all of the women killed were prostitutes. The author has been the victim of misogynistic trolling and on-line abuse as a result. The Wikipedia editors of these pages wish to uphold the so-called 'consensus' view maintained by Ripperologists by banning Rubenhold's book and thereby excluding any mention of this important work within the canon of books on the Whitechapel murders, while also claiming they have to be impartial. To date, no scholarship by any woman is mentioned on any of the wiki pages discussing the Whitechapel murders, a brutally violent series of murders of women. This does not offer balance or impartiality and appears to be a deliberate act of sexism. 
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Require these editors to allow fair mention and discussion of other theories, information and scholarly works, especially when those works are recognised as legitimate mainstream works vetted by academic professionals outside of the circle of hobbyists (Ripperologists) who wish to control public discourse and exclude women.
==== Summary of dispute by DrKay ====
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
There is no evidence of any misogynistic trolling, online abuse or sexism at the Whitechapel murders page or any other wikipedia page related to Jack the Ripper, and none has been presented here. The opening party has an undeclared conflict of interest. If the book under discussion is "universally recognised and applauded" then in time it will be incorporated into the articles as it gains credence and support. The opening party should follow the advice at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. DrKay (talk) 06:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summation 

message: Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
There is no evidence of any misogynistic trolling, online abuse or sexism at the Whitechapel murders page or any other wikipedia page related to Jack the Ripper, and none has been presented here. The opening party has an undeclared conflict of interest. If the book under discussion is "universally recognised and applauded" then in time it will be incorporated into the articles as it gains credence and support. The opening party should follow the advice at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. DrKay (talk) 06:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary of dispute by DrKay 

message: Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Rubenhold's book disagrees with the raft of previously accepted WP:RS sources over whether the victims were prostitutes. The "systematically edited out" is in fact resistance to the opening party changing the article to reflect Rubenhold's views, dismissing all other sources.
The book has been applauded by some but dismissed by others. Claiming those who support Rubenhold's theories are "country's leading historians" and those who dismiss it are "amateur 'Ripperologists'" is a gross misrepresentation of the books reception. Literary awards are give for "good reads". They are not the same thing as academic or scientific awards that are based on content not writing skills.
Rubenhold's book has been discussed on Talk:Whitechapel murders previously and the general consensus is that its not a WP:RS. The only "dispute" I can see here is that the opening party is not prepared to accept the principles of consensus, which is one of the fundamentals of Wikipedia, and WP:DUE weight. 
I would add to 's comments above that it matters little what sex an author is, it's the content that counts. To infer other editors are exhibiting sexism when they disagree with you is totally unacceptable. --John B123 (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary of dispute by John B123 

message: *I was not involved in this previously but from my reading of the dispute and statements here I think this is a question of WP:DUE, WP:LEAD and WP:FRINGE. The initial attempt at including it was quite unacceptable by Wikipedia standards. It attempted to phrase a tiny minority view by one expert as the predominant view and go into too much detail of this theory in the lead (where it should probably not be included by DUE). From DUE quoting Jimbo Wales:  I don't know how to qualify extremely small minority in this case nor am I sure we apply exactly that standard. One person tends to be a very small minority but in some topics one person might meet the threshold for a notable theory I guess. Doubleday is not an academic imprint and this is not a book targeted or vetted as academic history but the author can considered an expert with an opinion. I am not experienced in applying FRINGE in a situation like this, but my impression is that we don't always do a careful analysis of just how representative an expert with a novel idea is before mentioning the new theory in an article. My gut instinct would be to include it briefly in the individual biographies to be fair to the subjects (even though not BLP) and since included there give a very brief mention of a new theory in this article. I would not include it in the lead at all. At most I would soften the phrasing "were prostitutes" to "were believed to be prostitutes" but I don't know that we have enough for that. The allegations of sexism are way out of line from what I can tell. —DIYeditor (talk) 01:32, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I promised I wouldn't do this, but: Rubenhold's case is a lack of evidence (which is WP:V relevant), and the identification as sex workers was a lazy assumption in the press and from afar. For while this matters, if, as she suggests he was attacking women while they slept, that does put a different light on the profile.  Now, her book is the place for such things, wikipedia isn't, but her contribution to the field needs to be considered as does her plea to show more consideration for the victims as humans, if only by checking the facts.Red Deathy (talk) 09:40, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rubenhold's case, in regard to prostitution, isn't supported by other academics. Kate Lister et al sit on the fence, they don't dismiss Rubenhold theories, but they stop short of saying they are correct. Drew Gray dismisses Rubenhold's claim as the "central argument is unconvincing" and that "we cannot simply ignore sources that do not fit our particular view of the past". Having read the relevant parts of the book (keyword searches on Google preview), I find Rubenhold's reasoning flimsy. For example, "On the nights they were killed no one came forward to state they had been solicited." Whilst that could mean they were not prostitutes, it could also mean that men who they had propositioned were afraid to come forward in case they became suspects. What Rubenhold considered the "final word" is that in 4 out of the 5 case they were not recorded as prostitutes on their death certificates. This ignores that usual practice in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that a husband's name and occupation were recorded under "occupation". Any text book on social history will confirm occupations on women's death certificates during this era are of little value. Florence Nightingale (d 1910) had her occupation on her death certificate as "daughter of William Nightingale", but this is no argument that she wasn't a nurse. --John B123 (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're mischaracterising Lister et. al a little "Maybe these women did sell sex, although as Rubenhold demonstrates the evidence for this is far from certain.", "Greatly expanding on the research of genealogists and amateur historians, she thoroughly and poignantly reconstructs the lives of the five working-class women, and is able to trace four of them back to their childhoods. She demonstrates how historians might reconstruct details of working-class women's lives through their interactions with the state.",etc.  the critical comments mostly relate to it being popular history and questioning the claim of finding "truth", which I suspect, per Rubenhold's reuttal of Gray she wouldn't demur over.  one of Lister et al substantially challenge Rubenhold's credentials or her method.Red Deathy (talk) 08:54, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Even Rubenhold says she was a sex worker. There is no justification for removing information when all the sources agree on it. Indeed, something that all sources mention should be in the article. DrKay (talk) 09:00, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you mean to reply here or to my other edit?  I don't mention removing any information at all, nor am I advocating it?  I'm a bit confused now about what you're talking about.Red Deathy (talk) 09:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

text:  Lister et. al's "Rubenhold demonstrates the evidence for this is far from certain" isn't the same thing as Rubenhold's "there is no evidence". Lister et. al are generally supportive of the book, as is Gray, but this is irrelevant to the area under discussion here. As an aside, I have followed Lister on twitter for years (@WhoresofYore) and find the snippets she posts about prostitution in bygone times fascinating. --John B123 (talk) 10:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur, with slight note that rubenhold says "no substantial evidence" in her reply to Gray, which is cutting fine shades: thanks for Lister's twitter handle, I'll have to take a look.Red Deathy (talk) 10:40, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: leading to sensational reporting of the crimes and claims that the victims' trade made them "easy prey".
=====Support=====
Please also give a reason.
*Support This seems a reasonable compromise and explains why (and briefly) the significance of their trade.Slatersteven (talk) 18:33, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not what we do, we are not a bibliography where fringe theories are given the same weight as mainstream ones. Also see wp:soap.Slatersteven (talk) 13:59, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposes new text

message: Please also give a reason.
*Support This seems a reasonable compromise and explains why (and briefly) the significance of their trade.Slatersteven (talk) 18:33, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Oppose The "sensationalism" was largely directed at the extreme brutality of the murders. The victims' lifestyles and the circumstances as to why they were as they were are covered in the penultimate lede sentence (which may need expanding to include the context of the proposal).--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:21, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: Please make alternative suggestions here (with reasons)
We have talked about this ad nauseam, can we please lust have one actual decision? Not more of the same arguments?Slatersteven (talk) 09:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not what we do, we are not a bibliography where fringe theories are given the same weight as mainstream ones. Also see wp:soap.Slatersteven (talk) 13:59, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternative suggestions

message: *The Criminal Investigation Department was then just starting the investigation into the Jack the Ripper murders, which he thought were grossly over-sensationalized. Almost immediately after being promoted, Anderson went on an extended holiday in France on vacation on doctor’s orders, leaving the Metropolitan Police leaderless during the biggest challenge in its history. He was called back after a month because of increased bad publicity over the Ripper murders. About which, he later wrote, “When the stolid English go in for a scare, they take leave of all moderation and common sense. If nonsense were solid, the nonsense that was talked and written about those murders would sink a Dreadnought.” He also wrote that the victims “belonged to a very small class of degraded women who frequent the East End streets after midnight, in hope of inveigling belated drunkards, or men as degraded as themselves.” He did not lead the Metropolitan Police to capture the killer.
*
* .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 09:26, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a reliable source. jack-the-ripper.org clearly says Switzerland, which is what Evans and Rumbelow, and other sources, also say. DrKay (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Robert Anderson (Scotland Yard official)#Jack the Ripper investigation]] conflict