Talk:Historical revisionism/Archive 2

message: See the Archive for talk on this article before this time stamp. Philip Baird Shearer 13:34, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Page 2

message: This article contradicts itself.--AI 22:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to explain. Stbalbach 00:43, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradict

message: There is a stream of so-called 'black history' -- I am not referring to the legitimate history of the African Americans -- that tries to imply that Plato, for example, was African, and that Africa was far more culturally advanced than admitted by mainstream history. I don't have references to that, but it would be an interesting subject of this article as well. 
Those kind of things tend to pop up during 'black history month' on college campusses (spelling?)
--80.228.154.61 09:35, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would put Martin Bernal under Historical revisionism (political) Septentrionalis 01:40, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Black History

message: The edit as of 15:13 Nov 19 does not seem to add to the page at all. I will revert it.--droptone 04:28, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: revert

message: I agree there is no reason justifying two different entries, historical revisionism and historical revisionism (political). Of course history is a matter of debate, and the official history is more than often the history of the winners (Napoleon may have said that; so did Marx, Walter Benjamin and many others). That history (as a discourse or a social science) change with time is the subject of historiography. This evolution on the writing of history is dependent on the discovery of new facts, but also in a change of ideas and understanding: the two are very difficult to dissociate, as any change in written history can be suspected of political motives. Henceforth, it is foolish to distinguish between a "good" neutral so-called "historical revisionism" and a "bad" "historical revisionism (political)". Historical revisionism is always political in nature, as is history in itself.
Now, that historians constantly rewrite history (some historians study this: historiography) does not mean that this should be called "historical revisionism". This is plain historical work. Revisionism, if words make sense, refers to the rewriting of history following a policy agenda, and denial of Holocaust is the most famous example of it. A Wikipedia entry on "historical revisionism" should include everything put in "historical revisionism (political)", and all comments about history being in itself a revisionist science, far from being deleted, should be replaced in the "history" article (or maybe "philosophy of history"), as they belong to the day-to-day works of history. Not doing this is simply letting this entry becoming a forum for revisionists. As show the talk-archives, naming David Irving has been interpretated here, by some, to be an act of POV. However, he has been condemned for something that justice calls "historical revisionism", he is therefore a good example of it. Nobody seems to consider that quoting the stupid and dangerous lies of "The Holocaust of Industry" (in the (politics) entry) is a Nazi POV !!! It should be written here that revisionism is condemned by law in a lot of country. Moreover, as someone already said, Japanese historic revisionism should certainly be stated!
Now, if after all this someone still really wants to defend historical revisionism, why not just write something to defend such extremist POV by a more neutral sentence such as: "Advocates of historical revisionism point out that their work is condemned as politically incorrect ?" This is the only NPOV way to defend those extremist POV that i can think off... Kaliz 20:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Historical revisionism is a legitimate scholarly term that has been co-opted by certain parties to give fringe wacko theories undeserved legitimacy. That is why it has been separated to a different article. It's about isolating it so we can have a decent and relevant article about the legitimate term and meaning, as recognized by mainstream historians. In fact "historical revisionism (political)" could be renamed to somthing entirely different, because its really not history at all, its propaganda.  How about we rename that article historical propaganda, because thats what it is, it has nothing to do with legetimate history. --Stbalbach 21:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: You have not given a reason for the POV tag. --Stbalbach 14:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: No matter what you personally believe, the term "historical revisionism" is used, in its legitimate sense as defined here, by some historians and others, particularly in the USA. Are they right? Wrong? That would be original research to comment on. Our job is to report what other people do. Your attempt here to de-legitimize the term, by putting it on equal level with wacko holocaust deniers and others who are involved in political propaganda, is really against how Wikipedia operates. We dont tell the world how things should be, we report on how things are. --Stbalbach 14:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure what ismeant by "in Europe" here. In the UK, the terms "historical revsionist" or "revisionist history of X" are commonly used to refer to a new or non-mainstream model being adopted to explain some historical phenomenon. Paul B 08:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I thought that was the case but was not sure. Will clarify. --Stbalbach 14:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes I'm aware that in Europe the term has negative connotations, that it does not have in the USA. I think the distinction between the two is, one is history revised by historians for legitimate historical reasons, and the other is history revised by non-historians for political or propaganda reasons. Such as your example in France, with French politicians trying to revise history for political reasons. But the term is so commonly used in the USA, in its legitimate sense, im not sure what kind of specific source there is, but will try. I would actually prefer to rename historical revisionism (political) to somthing else like historical propaganda which would solve a lot of problems (but create some new ones with those editors who believe otherwise). --Stbalbach 15:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Two pages? historical revisionism (political) is plain historical revisionism 

message: I put back the POV check because we don't even agree if there should be a POV check or not. The debate on the merge of the two articles (merging with historical revisionism (political)) proves that they are people who object to this supposed "legitimate" sense of historical revisionism (which does not mean that history is not a matter of debate: but this is not the primary sense of historical revisionism, whether among historians or non-historians (or we are not reading the same historians). The questions of historiography and historic debate should be adressed in the historiography entry or in a entry about philosophy of history (there is such a category in Wiki, so why not use it). This article (as written for the time being) is obviously a matter of philosophical and historian debate, not something which can be written as a NPOV, since not all think there really is a "legitimate" historical revisionism. As i allowed myself to write in the other page, some (Marx, Walter Benjamin, Michel Foucault, to name a few) think that any attempt to write history, or to rewrite history, has got political aims. As such, there is no "neutral" historical revisionism: revisionism is political by nature. See also revisionism: it was used by Karl Kautsky and Eduard Bernstein in marxist controversy, then used to refer to irredentism and refusal of actual state-borders, then to the Holocaust denial and other genocides-denial : all of those uses are political uses. Kaliz 14:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No matter what you personally believe, the term "historical revisionism" is used, in its legitimate sense as defined here, by some historians and others, particularly in the USA. Are they right? Wrong? That would be original research to comment on. Our job is to report what other people do. Your attempt here to de-legitimize the term, by putting it on equal level with wacko holocaust deniers and others who are involved in political propaganda, is really against how Wikipedia operates. We dont tell the world how things should be, we report on how things are. --Stbalbach 14:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure what ismeant by "in Europe" here. In the UK, the terms "historical revsionist" or "revisionist history of X" are commonly used to refer to a new or non-mainstream model being adopted to explain some historical phenomenon. Paul B 08:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I thought that was the case but was not sure. Will clarify. --Stbalbach 14:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes I'm aware that in Europe the term has negative connotations, that it does not have in the USA. I think the distinction between the two is, one is history revised by historians for legitimate historical reasons, and the other is history revised by non-historians for political or propaganda reasons. Such as your example in France, with French politicians trying to revise history for political reasons. But the term is so commonly used in the USA, in its legitimate sense, im not sure what kind of specific source there is, but will try. I would actually prefer to rename historical revisionism (political) to somthing else like historical propaganda which would solve a lot of problems (but create some new ones with those editors who believe otherwise). --Stbalbach 15:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge & POV check 

message: Here are a couple articles that show that historical revisionism is a legitimate undertaking, with the term being co-opted by certain history "deniers" for political purposes:
*"What is Legitimate Historical Revisionism?" from The Holocaust History Project, by Gord McFee
*"Historical revisionism is a perfectly legitimate, respectable and necessary approach to historical analysis." by Ben S. Austin, on holocaust deniers.
*"Revisionism is an activity in which all historians engage. In other words, it is a perfectly normal aspect of historiography."
Perhaps we should rename historical revisionism (political) to historical deniers since this seems to be the latest description being used for these types of things, and a more appropriate one. --Stbalbach 15:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep in mind this is the English wikipedia, not the German or French wikipedia. Im not sure what your objection is, other than a cultural linguistic mis-understanding. Also, whats your objection to renaming the historical revisionism (political) article to historical deniers? I mentioned it might be problematic, only because the holocaust deniers might object to it. --15:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legitimate historical revisionism 

message: I'm trying to cleanup the page a little bit, I hope I'm maintaining NPOV while doing so. Changes:
*Tried to make the first section more readable, while perserving the distinction between European and US definitions. First I did a "minor cleanup", which seeks to make the first paragraph more readable, without removing the information about different uses of the term. Then I saved that and did a "major cleanup" which deleted big chunks of the article. These were peices which were poorly written, vague, not NPOV, or didn't seem to offer much to a new reader. I left the lists there, although I think they should be rewritten. Lampros 20:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lampos, the article before was not perfect, but it was not bad. If you had replaced it with somthing better, I would not mind but your revision was really confusing and somewhat inaccurate. --Stbalbach 22:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I guess I disagree, I feel its terrible. But, can we compromise and go with my "minor cleanup" version? Lampros 01:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I rewrote the intro and made it simple. Two meanings. Two articles. Not complicated. The lead section should just be an introduction/summary, with the body of the article containing the real content and explanation. Hopefully that will avoid further confusion in the future. I deleted a section you had wanted deleted in your major edit. --Stbalbach 05:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I changed the first paragraph a little just to try to make it read more clearly. Tell me what you think. I think the "historical revisionism" section contains a lot of opinions ("all history is inherently revisionist") and is generally more analylitical than factual. I'd ask you to consider revising it. Lampros 02:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually, I did make one content change in the first paragraph. I removed "by professional historians". I don't think historical revisionism does not have to be practiced by professionals in order to be legitimate. Lampros 02:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning Up 

message: The term Revisionism leaves me bored and confused: it seems to crop up mostly in newspaper opinion pieces, where the snotty right/left winger is taking on an arrogant left/right winger, over some historical event that plays host to their mutual contempt. Where did the term derive from, where was it first used? historical revisionism (political) should be moved to Historical Propaganda, and Historical Revisionism should be moved to Historical Accuracy. It's difficult enough to tidy up the facts, without this pair of yobs barging in and smashing all the crockery.--shtove 01:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See talk page comments Talk:Historical revisionism (political)#Historical semanticism. --Stbalbach 01:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding changing the names of the articles: these are the terms widely used, so we use them here. We reflect usage, rather than invent better terms. --KM
I'm not inventing terms - just suggesting the use of clear terms instead. Anyway, I spoke out of frustration. Nothing hangs on it.--shtove 18:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why? 

message: During the later phases of the Cold War, and especially just after the fall of Communism in Russia, there were a number of histories which were called "revisionist." For a time, this was the main usage heard, and clashed with the usage of the term by holocaust deniers. Some people, not knowing the difference between a description and a label, were confused. Knowing that "Cold War Revisionists" were on the left, the use of the term by holocaust deniers indicated its use by the so-called right. But "revisionism" is from the "accepted notions," not in any given direction. This is just what seemed most important to me about the term. --Sobolewski 19:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: historical revisionism (political). -- Stbalbach 21:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hey! Where's the Cold War?

message: "Often historians who are in the minority, such as feminist historians, or ethnic minority historians, or those who work outside of mainstream academia in smaller and less known universities, or the youngest scholars, who have the most to gain and the least to lose, by shaking up the establishment." -- what about them all? --Gutza T T+ 13:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, all of them, what about them? 

message: I'm not sure this section is a good example of revisionism. The reason is, the "old" view is still widely held and valid, the US certainly did drop the bomb to end the war quickly - it may have also had other motivations, which are now coming to light, which adds to a more nuanced picture of events. There will always be new perspectives and theories, just like in Decline of the Roman Empire, but these are not really revisionistic. Revisionism, strictly speaking, is where you take an established idea and discount it based on new evidence.  Otherwise it is just the normal process of better understanding the many nuances and complexity of history. So I guess the question is, is there a school of thought saying the US did not drop the bomb because it wanted to end the war early? -- Stbalbach 14:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not the mainstream view. The examples here are showing how revisionism has overturned mainstream established beliefs and are now the new mainstream. I can't comment if what your saying is right or wrong, all I know is that any general history book doesn't say Truman dropped it because of Stalin. People use the term revisionist for a lot of reasons, one is to give their views legitimacy (rightly or wrongly). And he may even be right. It's just too controversial or not well established to be a good example in this article.  -- Stbalbach 15:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atomic Attacks on Japan 

message: * Does this example help to illuminate the issue?
* Even if it does,  is it worth the bother, or will it become one for endless POV wars? --Philip Baird Shearer 11:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Irish history concerning relations with Britain

message: I'm kind of concerned about using the Irish revisionism as an example of revisionism. It looks more like an conscious attempt to change history for a political purposes (ie. Historical revisionism (negationism)), than a legitimate academic discovery of new facts. -- Stbalbach 22:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an ongoing debate here in Ireland, but with no political angle. Deliberately, I quoted Kevin Whelan's work on 1798 as he outlined the various revisions long before Irish independence; before the politics became important. Each revision mentioned / discovered new 'facts' and chose to ignore most previous analyses. Of course one can split hairs over whether something is negationist or not. I have supplied a reference and if you disagree after you have read it, then delete it. Deleting a point before you read a source is just vandalism.Red Hurley 13:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok what got me was this: Since 1970 some commentators and historians have sought or promoted a revisionist approach, often deprecated as anti-national which makes it sound like negationism. I read it more closely and I think I understand what your saying, that there is a school of revisionism trying to overturn the nationalistic scholarship of the past with social, micro, economic, womens, etc.. which would be a good example of revisionism. BTW sorry if you saw it as vandalism, I posted this note and wait about a week or so and didn't hear back so removal of the text was the next logical step. -- Stbalbach 15:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine, thanks. KW analysed revisionism itself - that is why he should be mentioned. I was also guilty of adding in the new scientific analyses as in: " Carbon dating, the examination of ice cores and tree rings and measuring oxygen isotopes in bones in the last few decades have provided new data with which to argue new hypotheses. The new area of 'ancient DNA', recovering partial results, allows scientists to argue for example whether or not humans are partly descended from Neanderthals. The reader must watch out for multi-disciplinary academic papers that end with cautious or generalised results." History no longer derives from dots of ink on a page.Red Hurley 07:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish revisionism 

message: I don't know if this should go here, on this article, or on Historical revisionism (negationism) or Historical revisionism (negationism). But I believe current events and people have been accused of rewriting history, notably both George W. Bush  (On the Iraq war and his terms in office) and Vladimir Putin . I do not know much on these two accusations other then that I know they have been criticized by the media for allegedly changing factual events for their benefits. My intentions are not trying to give a POV, or create crazy conspiracy theories, but I was interested on readying more about these accusations.209.249.65.142­~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.249.65.142 (talk) 21:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request "Accusations of Historical revisionism"

message: I have added the New Historians to the See Also section.  This is an on-going, active and hotly debated historical revisionism issue predominantly within Israel, but with immense wider implications.  It is based largely on Accession of New Data, but has added new dimensions to all other legitimate revisionism influences, particularly Causation, Nationalism and Ideology.   Although this article notes revisionism is a struggle historically, the status quo side of the New Historians debate, to a large degree, has tried to dismiss the new data outright and is currently arguing the interpretation of the data, rather than the facts thereof.  The debate has degenerated to the point where the perjorative usage of the word ‘revisionist’ could be considered a relative a compliment.  
The importance of this debate has massive implications both within the broader historic context and better knowledge of Israeli History, as well as a better understanding of the Palestinian point of view, their struggle for human rights and self-determination.   Similar heated debate within the US has largely been between Jewish historians.  Debating the importance or even acknowledging the New Historian’s data outside the Jewish community has often lead to charges of antisemitism.  This legitimate historical revisionist debate is contemporaneous with, and in part causal to, the development of neologisms such as self-hating Jew, new antisemitism and post-Zionism.  
I believe details of this current debate should be included within the Examples section, lengthy or not. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 15:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[New Historians]] - A New Paradigm 

message: Irish revisionism is not a good example in the context of this article. It would be more suited to negationism. The piece is also wrong and misleading anyway on two counts. Firstly, Kevin Whelan actually argues that revisionism was politically motivated and secondly, what lead to an increase in local economic and women's history was actually an aversion to the messy politicised debate around revisionism. Cliste (talk) 23:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Revisionism