Talk:Robert Latimer/Archive 1

message: See WP:REF for details on the correct way of giving the sources of information you add. Rosemary Amey 04:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please give sources!

message: The anonymous 70.66.189.60 deleted the words "he believed" in the sentence "Robert Latimer claimed to have ended his daughter's life because he believed she was in incurable, excruciating and almost unrelenting pain." This is unacceptably POV as it asserts that Tracey really was in incurable, excruciating, and almost unrelenting pain. That is an opinion or conjecture, rather than an undisputed fact. It is an undisputed fact that Robert Latimer believed that Tracey was in incurable, excruciating, and almost unrelenting pain.
Also, the anonymous user 70.66.189.60 changed the word "much" to "most" in the phrase "bedridden much of the time", however, this is not supported by the reference given, which says "much". Please see R. v. Latimer, [2001] 1 S.C.R. 3, 2001 SCC 1, I 6.
Also, don't forget to sign your name when you comment in the talk page by typing 4 tildes (~~~~), which Wikipedia will automatically change to your name and the date. Rosemary Amey 21:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My reversion of anon's latest edit

message: Please see WP:V. According to this page, which is official policy on Wikipedia, "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it." Rosemary Amey 21:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to #8 (Latimer = only mercy killer to get life sentence in Canada)

message: This is a request for comments on two issues in the Robert Latimer article: 
# Should the article state that Tracey Latimer was in incurable, excruciating and almost unrelenting pain, or should it state that Robert Latimer believed she was in incurable, excruciating and almost unrelenting pain?
# Should the article describe the killing of Tracey Latimer as a mercy killing, or should it state that Latimer and his supporters consider it to be a mercy killing. 22:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comments

message: Comment by Rosemary Amey
# The nature, severity, and in particular the incurablity of the pain Tracey Latimer was in are subject to debate. Wikipedia should remain neutral on this question, rather than asserting that the pain actually was incurable, excruciating, and almost unrelenting. Putting in the phrase "he believed" in the sentence "Robert Latimer claimed to have ended his daughter's life because he believed she was in incurable, excruciating and almost unrelenting pain." conveys Latimer's reasoning without taking sides on this question.
# It is subject to debate whether this actually was a mercy killing. The very phrase is POV. Therefore Wikipedia should not refer to this killing as a mercy killing, though we can safely say that Robert Latimer and his supporters consider it a mercy killing. Rosemary Amey 22:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Statements by editors previously involved in the dispute

message: I won't address all of Anonymous's points 1 to 9, as the key ones are already being discussed, but wish to offer the following:
Tracy's condition is not as rare as Anonymous (and many news reports) suggests. I have worked with many children with the same kind of cerebral palsy as Tracy had, involving the same surgeries, etc., which is why I have taken an interest in this case and why I take exception to the oft repeated negative and dehumanizing language and stereotypes about Tracy and her condition (and the pejorative judgments made by Latimer and others about the value of the lives of people who live with these disabilities). In 2001, Dr. Richard Sobsey from the University of Alberta estimated that there are about 8,000 children with this kind of cerebral palsy in North America - here is a segment of an article of his:
Across North America, approximately 8,000 children have severe cerebral palsy like Tracy Latimer had. Between one-quarter and one-half of them experience dislocation of one or both hips sooner or later. The amount of pain experienced with these hip dislocations varies greatly, but when pain is significant, treatment is recommended.
The treatment normally recommended for this problem is surgery, not carbon monoxide poisoning. Several different surgical procedures are used, but the one recommended by Tracy Latimer's own physician is often used for children who cannot walk or stand because the removal of bone in the hip makes a recurrence of dislocation impossible. (from http://chealth.canoe.ca/channel_health_news_details.asp?news_id=1080&news_channel_id=155&channel_id=155&relation_id=4006 )
THE SUPREME COURT did not characterize Tracy's mental capacity as that of a three to four month old baby - they stated that she "was said to have the mental capacity of ...". Some judges involved in this case did state that they felt Latimer acted out of compassion. They also called his claims and justifications into question and they rejected all of his appeal arguments, including the arguments of necessity, cruel and unusual punishment, etc. No-one can know Latimer's motives. All I know is that he was not convicted of mercy killing, he was convicted of murder, so I see your final sentence (the one I deleted yesterday) as unfounded, biased and sensational.
Your point in #9 is misleading. Only you have referred to Nazis. I made specific reference to the so-called euthanasia program advocated for and implemented by German doctors during World War 2 - I referred to this program because they used the same method as Latimer (gassing) and gave the same excuse (mercy) for killing people with disabilities. Those acts were judged to have been murder, despite the perpetrators' claims. What is important for people to understand is that the idea that killing children with disabilities is a kind and merciful act has been around for a long time and continues to be proposed. Those who have promoted this idea during the past century have usually not been political idealogues - they have been academics (Binding and Hoche in 1920's Germany), doctors/psychiatrists (Karl Brandt and Gerhard Wagner in 1930s Germany, Foster Kennedy and others in the American Psychiatric Association in the 1940s) and more recently, bioethicists (Joseph Fletcher in the 1960s, Peter Singer and others currently). All have argued that killing such individuals is not wrong, that it is for the good of society and merciful for the individuals themselves. Fortunately, civilized societies continue to reject these arguments and people with disabilities themselves continue to refute and disprove others' negative assumptions about them. Phred07 01:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to anonymous

message: I've just made a quick reading of the article. 
At present it reads as "the trial" of Robert Latimer rather than the "biography" of Robert Latimer.
Granted - the trial created the notability -but might be handled a little differently in the overall biography.
His background etc needs to be expanded.
Personally I would "report" the "facts" of the trial, rather than diverge into ethics via the biography, with reference (and links) to the debate on euthansia. 
Perhaps if you flesh out the bio and article first it will be easier to deal with the trial.
I'm working on another article that is part of what is referred to as an "essentially contested concept" and they are difficult to manage. 
I'll try and contribute where I can. 
Tintina 18:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  additional general comments-scope and focus of biography