Talk:L. Ron Hubbard/Archive 7

message: I took out these items, which were soon put back:
:In Keith Giffen's Justice League International, a robot appeared aptly named L-Ron. In later issues, L-Ron's full programming code, "L-Ron H*bb*rd" was revealed. L-Ron is still a minor character in the DC Universe.
	
:Hubbard was awarded the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize in Literature for "his crackling Good Book, Dianetics, which is highly profitable to mankind — or to a portion thereof".http://improbable.com/ig-pastwinners.html#ig1994
Are a couple of jokes that important that they should take up space in his biography?  Steve Dufour 04:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Steve Dufour I put the Justice League reference back in because it's true. The character isn't a villain, and Keith Giffen didn't appear to be creating the character out of spite. This is one of the claims the CoS makes that is actually true, other fiction writer's included Hubbard. Anynobody 04:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think these items are trivial, which is why I removed them. Steve Dufour 21:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think people interested in sci-fi writing/comic books AND Scientology would find the DC comics info interesting. I'm not arguing for or against the Ig Nobel prize though. Before removing it though I'd recommend explaining more thoroughly why you think it's trivial apart from your opinion. Anynobody 02:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I have to say I'd agree that it's trivial in the way that it's currently presented, though perhaps a case could be made for mentioning it under something like "Impact on popular culture". -- ChrisO 15:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia removed 

message: If we had to boil down L. Ron Hubbard's life to one thing he had, then anyone, whether Hubbard's biggest fan or greatest detractor, would inevitably have to say "He founded Scientology."  How can it possibly be thought irrelevant whether he did so with utmost sincerity or under deceptive pretenses??  Wikipediatrix's edit summary says '"Legitimacy of Scientology as a religion" is off-topic here', but that only shows that the section is poorly titled, because it is all about Hubbard and the evidence that he was merely solving "a problem of practical business" when he founded his own religion.  Quite far from being off-topic. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally, such detailed analysis doesn't go on the article for the guy who created a thing, it goes on the article about the thing. wikipediatrix 00:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the guy created the thing for his own profit at the cost of others time and money THEN tries to create an image of himself as the greatest friend to mankind ever the legitimacy of his "creation" is very relevant. Anynobody 02:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not for you or I to judge that his profit margin or his "friend to mankind" shtick makes questioning Scientology's "legitimacy" more of a must. wikipediatrix 03:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not judging it though, that's for the readers to do. I'd like anyone reading the article to understand that Hubbard's colleagues mention his advice to use a new faith as the vehicle to wealth. Given how much the CoS charges for advancing up the bridge or whatever they call it, the information seems relevant. If they (the readers) want to judge, so be it, if not that's ok too but at least they have all the info.  Anynobody 07:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Legitimacy of Scientology as a religion"

message: I have no doubt that his drug use did have something to do with his stroke, but there is no reference saying so therefore it should be removed. Category:People from California doesn't apply to people from Nebraska. If there is a category for people who lived in California that would be more appropriate. Anynobody 04:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed two categories 

message: I couldn't figure out what to do with Attitudes regarding race, so if anyone has an idea where it should go please be my guest in moving it. The integrated paragraphs will need some editing to make them flow together with the sections I added them to. Anynobody 01:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to remove the Attitudes regarding race sometime after 3 days from 05:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I have stated previously, the portion of the "Attitudes regarding race" section is significant especially because the same lama priests he was mocking in 1928, he would later claim had introduced him to "China’s ancient wisdom that had been handed down from generation to generation", "ancient wisdom" with which he would in turn try to bolster Scientology's appearances of legitimacy. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not saying it has to be banned, just that it needs to be integrated into the article somehow. If it can't be integrated and I remove it, I'm also not saying you can't integrate in later. The Biographical controversies section has to go though. Anynobody 03:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I moved it to the early life section. Anynobody 05:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Integrated trivia and most controversies 

message: Is there solid evidence that L Ron Hubbard was ever an Eagle?  The footnotes are rather unconvincing as are references in his biographies(even the anti-LRon ones), but the Eagle records at the time were so poor it is really hard to tell either way.   Can anyone tell me what council(or city) he received his Eagle?Jerjharris 22:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Washington, D.C., according to Miller. -- ChrisO 22:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eagle Scout? 

message: I saw that the picture in the infobox has been nominated for deletion on grounds of replacability. Are there any pictures of him in the navy that could be loaded on a free license as government works? --Lenin and McCarthy  |  (Complain here) 21:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: I stumbled across this article while looking up some information after talking to a co-worker about LRH, Scientology, et all and noticed a discrepency - how is it that L. Ron Hubbard, who died in 1986 according to the article, could be depicted playing a Nintendo Wii when  the Wii came out in 2006?  The incongruity of image wasn't clear until after I had scrolled back up and I figured out why it had seemed so wrong.  Perhaps a gag image on the article?  216.99.185.50 15:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Later Life''' Picture 

message: No one has come up with a good reason yet why we, or Wikipedia, or Scientologists, or anyone on Earth should care about L. Ron Hubbard's boy scout record. The article says: "Church biographies routinely state that he was "the nation's youngest Eagle Scout" which is based on a March 25, 1930, report of the "Evening Star" and Hubbards Boy Scout Diary of 25 March 1924. Okay, that's already too much information. I can come up with dozens more celebrities who were also in the Scouts, yet we don't mention such micro-minutiae in their article. Even if we had notarized proof that he was the youngest Eagle Scout, who really cares?
But wait, it gets worse: since the Scientologists place so much needless emphasis on this Scout thing, of course the anti-Scientologist editors just have to try to dispute it, heaping counter-trivia onto trivia: "According to the Boy Scouts of America, their documents at the time were only kept in alphabetical order with no reference to their ages — thus there was no way of telling who was the youngest." Whew! Glad that vital issue is cleared up for the record!  wikipediatrix 20:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are bigger problems in this article than Eagle Scout memberships, but I think you showed very well how this article became so big. What do you want to do? COFS 21:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  L. Ron Hubbard's boy scout diary 

message: Someone really needs to archive this page. John Carter 16:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do! --FOo 17:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest bot archiving as the easiest option. My preference is for User:MiszaBot. It's fairly easy to set up, check out User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo or take a look at Talk:Main Page and Talk:Scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming for examples. I could set it up myself, but want to make sure no one opposes first. Nil Einne 20:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would the bot archiving integrate with the archives this page already has? If it does, or if you can make it do that, i'd love to see automated archiving here. Foobaz·o< 20:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Foobaz, you would be able to do that if it was set up correctly. If Nil Einne is happy to do so, I say go ahead :)  Tiddly Tom  20:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As there's been no objection I've added it. The page should be archived when the bot next runs which should be in about 12 hours from now. Also, it's possible for the bot to archive to existing pages. But as the last archive (/Archive 4) is already 142k and for pages with only moderate activity like this one it's generally better to keep them smallish, I set the limit to 125k so it will use the next number anyway 5. The format will still be the same (/Archive X). I've set it to archive after a thread is not updated for 72 days and to keep at least 5 threads and only archive when at least 2 threads need to be archived. These settings can easily be changed if necessary, check out the header at the top. Someone will have to update the date tags as new archives pages are added which is all the manual work that should be needed. Nil Einne 12:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving? 

message: User:Anyeverybody removed a list of references to unofficial biographies of L. Ron Hubbard, with the following summary: "rem unoffical bios... they are all already listed as references". That doesn't qualify as a good reason to remove this important reference material from the list. Raymond Hill 18:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The biographies are already linked in the Footnotes section...see L. Ron Hubbard#Footnotes numbers 2, 6, and 7. Anynobody 01:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, "A Piece of Blue Sky" is not a Hubbard biography. wikipediatrix 04:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-official biographies 

message: As usual, the external links section is packed with extremist kooks and fringe conspiracy crap like the "Ron the Nut" hate site that calls its subject a "raving, lying, lunatic sociopath who fabricated Scientology and Dianetics" and "Hubbard was a petty thief; a wife beater; and sociopath; a drug-addicted, rum besotted schizophrenic"', pretty much disqualifying it as anything but an extremist slander site that can't be taken seriously by anyone who requires information be conveyed by persons who aren't ranting with spittle flying from their mouths and exhausting their Thesaurus for every negative and hateful adjective they can think of. wikipediatrix 04:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  external links 

message: Hubbard is reported as being said to have been an incarnation of Maitreya, an incarnation of Buddha, and is included in the List of Buddha claimants. Maybe not the strongest connection in the world, but a real one. In the event any content related to that does appear, that project would probably best know whether it's accurate or not. If you think the banner inappropriate, of course, feel free to remove it. John Carter 22:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buddhism banner 

message: I was looking at the Scientology section and it occurred to me that we should consider changing the section title to Hubbard and Scientology. The reasons being that the section discusses his relation with it and Scientology itself seems to have changed since his "departure" somewhat. Anynobody 22:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hubbard and Scientology 

message: The article states that he was in college for two years, however, I believe it is actually two semesters that he was enrolled. A judge quoted later in the article confirms that he attended college for only one year (two semesters). Thanks, --75.45.9.196 21:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time in College 

message: I was just going through a bunch of the references in this article concerning Hubbard's early life, and noticed that a lot of them are pictures hosted at http://misou.awardspace.us. I'm assuming it's because Misou was kind enough to provide free hosting for them. Nevertheless, because those are scans, I would suggest a a reference for each to indicate where the scan came from. I know they're not original research, but they'll look that way until they're backed up by a book reference or similar citation. For instance, there's this quote from the article:
The only reference for it is a pair of scans on the above site here and here.
What are other peoples' opinions on this? Does anything need to be done about it? --GoodDamon 16:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In cases where the source is a periodical or other publication, the image itself is sufficient as a reference... but a license, a diploma or other type of printed certificate isn't a proper reference, scanned or not. wikipediatrix 19:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we have a real problem on our hands. We definitely need to get some better references to keep those statements. Almost everything on Misou's website is a scanned certificate of some kind. How in the world did they get past the first time? There are a ton of statements in the article that rely entirely on these references. I know there are better ones out there. --GoodDamon 23:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Online availability of documents is not a prerequisite on Wikipedia. If I remember right at least some of those documents are attachments to the official biography, published in 1977 (and also referenced in the text). I posted something on Misou's talk page (seems to be dozing through the summer again). Shutterbug 01:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha, that'd be nice. Ok, on these docs, yes, they are from a pack (SO ED something with a sh**load of attachments). Any problem? Misou 23:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, yes. If you know the books or other sources those scans came from, references to things like ISBN numbers should be fine, but we definitely can't leave those scans as the only references. --GoodDamon 03:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do I understand this right that original documents are less worthy (as a source for quoting) than a second-hand interpretation? Seems a bit odd. Misou, is that SO ED (Sea Organization Executive Directive, an official, usually internal, Scientology directive (for those who don't know)) online as well? Makoshack 21:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Note to self: Yes, the SO ED is online as well and contained in the article as a reference). Makoshack 20:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, the book/source which these certificates could be attributed to would have to conform with reliability guidelines and verification policies to be eligible for use. (I'm sure GoodDamon meant this as well. I'm just saying it for anyone who doesn't already know). Anynobody 04:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I think the reliability and verifiability of APOBS and the other axe-to-grind-driven publications used as reference material is far more questionable as actual documents are. Makoshack 21:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for Hubbard career and education documents? 

message: The use of this reference seems contrary to our rule about verifiability because there is not an easy way for average English speaking web user to get copies of this document. Moreover, how can we be sure the "she" part is a typo. Besides the guy found not guilty in the scanned article there were two or three others including Ron. Since the court said the others may be pardoned if they appealed it didn't guarantee it and Ron would need to appeal too. Given he wasn't big on dealing with the judicial authorities in foreign countries he could simply avoid returning to it seems doubtful that ever did appeal. Anynobody 06:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: French language source and ''her''...