Talk:Old Italic scripts

message: Maybe it could be mentioned that, at least to one thory, this alphabet is the source for the runes.
:It's usually the Venetic alphabets that are considered the proximate source for the runes. Old Italic is their source, though. Evertype 23:56, 2005 Mar 1 (UTC)
::OK, thanks. Maybe I could check out some pages to watch the development of the Latin and Runic alphabet more carefully. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/olditalic.htm http://www.proel.org/alfabetos.html http://pedroiy.free.fr/alphabets/
::Can you please cite your source for the Old Italic > Venetic > Runic alphabet lineage? I have not been able to verify this independently. If there is something to back it up it would be an invaluable addition to this article. Thank you. Trollaxor 16:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Image:Latin-Etruscan_alphabet_table.png would be perfect for this article, but it needs to be redrawn. dab (ᛏ) 06:41, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Relation to Runes

message: well yes, please do, explain what you mean. Xi doesn't survive in Etruscan anyway. So the Masiliana alphabet is close to a Western Greek alphabet. Still, if we say that San is directly from Tsade, I don't see why we shouldn't say that Xi is directly from Samek, what's the problem? dab (ᛏ) 15:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would really like to have a photograph of the Masiliana tablet. Maybe the scribe was familiar with both alphabets and wrote the Samek/Xi by mistake, trying to efface it after he realized it didn't belong in the [Western] Greek alphabet? dab (ᛏ) 17:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Xi

message: I'm not too fond of the idea of using example images from different alphabets (Etruscan, Phoenician, Runes) to show what the alphabet looked like, the Raetic Sanzeno alphabet in particular looks quite messy and could surely need some uniformity in style, possibly by redrawing inscription examples in a clearer style. 惑乱 分からん 19:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: very much so, you are more than welcome to the job. dab (ᛏ) 22:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heehee... =S OK, it's easier to complain at others but I'll see if I could find any good inscription examples I could redraw... 惑乱 分からん 00:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not an easy task, I'm stuck with the TITUS page, right now... 惑乱 分からん 00:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabet images 

message: The article links the TITUS page, which is extremely interesting but unfortunately lacks a bibliography. I can also find this:
Ancient North Italic Inscriptions
Unfortunately, none of the inscriptions are a particularly close fit to the alphabet on the Titus page.
I found a few leads in Etruscan News (Newsletter Of The American Section Of The Institute For Etruscan And Italic Studies. Volume 2. Spring, 2003): 
: Raetic And Etruscan Languages. Rex Wallace, University Of Massachusetts.
: Rätisch und Etruskisch, by Helmut Rix. (= Innsbrucker Beitrage zur Sprachwissenschaft: Vortrage und kleinere Schriften 68.) Innsbruck: Innsbrucker Beiträge zur Sprachwissenschaft, 1998. Pages 64.
: ...
: The standard edition of Raetic inscriptions is by Stefan Schumacher, Die rätischen Inschriften. Geschichte und heutiger Stand der Forschung (Innsbruck, 1992). ADDENDA to Die rätischen Inschriften were published by Schumacher in Studi Etruschi 59, 1994, pages 306-320 and in Der Schlern, 68 (1994), pages 295-298, and by Alberto Mancini in Quaderni del Dipartimento di Linguistica -- Università di Firenze, 6 (1995), pages 137-153. Shumacher is responsible also for many of the major articles on the Raetic language published within the last 10 years, including a splendid paper entitled Sprachliche Gemeinsamkeiten zwischen Rätisch und Etruskisch, Die Schlern (1998), pages 90-114.
Several of the books and articles mentioned appear to be difficult to obtain. Does anyone have any further pointers? - emk
: OK, after much searching (and some interlibrary loan) I've found pictures of dozens of Raetic inscriptions. So far, none of my sources resemble the alphabet from the TITUS page. Raetic R typically looks like a Latin D, the Futhark double-triangle shape for "D" is transcribed as š, the Raetic P is written in a fashion similar to Raetic L, etc. Adolfo Zavaroni's page is fairly typical and comprehensive, judging from the smaller set of line drawings in Schumacher's "Die rätischen Inschriften".
: Although many of the letter forms on the TITUS page appear somewhere in an Old Italic inscription, I'm currently unable to find any inscriptions which contain that particular set of letter-forms. I can find many of the individual shapes, but not all in one alphabet, or with those transcriptions.
: Oddly, the helmet on the bottom of the TITUS page shows a fairly typical Raetic inscription, with relatively standard letter forms and a typical transliteration. I'm not sure why the illustration and table don't match.
: Unless we can get more information from the TITUS folks, I don't think we understand their table well enough to be using it, or linking to it as an example of Raetic. - emk
::Yeah, I figured that, too. Btw, here's the Titus link discussed:  惑乱 分からん 22:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for Raetic Sanzeno? 

message: This page doesn't load correctly in Opera v9.10 or Safari 2.0.4. In Safari, the contents wind up under the image of the grave marker, and in Opera, they wind up displayed over the image. Also, this discussion page has no ToC... is that on purpose? Anyhow, just thought I'd let folks know.  — gogobera (talk) 06:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with the page layout / CSS? 

message: There seems to be some confusion over this. Was the Cumaean alphabet an Old Italic alphabet? A western Greek aplhabet? Is Old Italic the same as Western Greek?... FilipeS (talk) 21:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Old Italic versus Western Greek alphabet versus Cumaean

message: Etruscan alphabet redirects here, yet the page has nothing to say about it. Why? FilipeS (talk) 21:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except Semitic alphabetic scripts (abjads) such as Phoenician and Paleo-Hebrew do not have vowel signs, so they are clearly not "the same bloody thing". The reappropriation of several unused characters for the marking of vowels is a Greek invention (matres lectionis are a precursor, but not as consistent). The Etruscan alphabet and its descendants, the other Old Italic alphabets (including Latin – you are right that Etruscan is the original Old Italic script and the others are derived from it), clearly owe their structure and phonetic readings to the Greek, not the Semitic model. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Etruscan

message: :Image:Masiliana tablet.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Masiliana tablet.png

message: Etruscan alphabet look like closely with Old Turkic alphabet. see Old Turkic script. and should be classify with non-Indo european languages, like Mongolian or Turkic.
:Writing systems have different genetic relationships than languages do. The Latin script is also "non-Indo-European" by your argument, as it derives from Phoenician. -- Evertype·✆ 13:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similarities between Etruscan and Old Turkic 

message: Etruscan alphabet - classical time:
"... mostly written from left to right."
JUST THE CONTRARY IS TRUE. - Cf. the image "Comparison of West Greek alphabet..."
Nuremberg Sept. 17th  BY: angel.garcia2001@googlemail.com 87.156.176.37 (talk) 16:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Writing direction Etruscan 

message: Unless the section is referencing a totally separate custom of Oscan writing from what is otherwise attested from different sources, it has some major errors. Í and Ú were not introduced as long variants; they were introduced as slight differences in vowel quality, both are phonetically lowered relative to the unmarked letters. Ú came to be used to represent Oscan /o/. U was used for /u/ and also historical long */oː/. The article gets this backwards. Jackwolfroven (talk) 03:14, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy in Oscan section 

message: This article could make sense if it described how the alphabets derived from or influenced each other.  As it is now, it is just a pastiche of separate stub articles about writing systems of languages that had little in common except being on the Italian peninsula. This material should be more useful if moved to the articles on the respective languages.  And there is already a separate article about the Old Italic (Unicode block). --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 03:40, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should exist, but agree it needs continued improvement to be more useful. The Unicode block is its own thing, and is probably less confusing to have its own article which can go into Unicode specific issues. I'm surprised that there are no links between Italic languages and this article. Even though they are related they should provide non-overlapping information, this should be solely about the scripts and the relationships between them. Perhaps acting as a landing page to dig deeper into a specific script. I think at least historically the different scripts were often treated together, and this could be a place to clear up confusion and list real similarities and points of difference. Salpynx (talk) 07:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this article exist? 

message: The Etruscan Alphabet tables ("archaic" and "new") are copied from the Omniglot page.  However, that page has two mappings for each glyph.  One is apparently a proposed transliteration system, that does not seem to be the one used by Etruscologists ("𐌙" is transcribed as "χ", for example, not "Ψ").  The other is the presumed phonetic value of the glyph (which for "𐌙" is [kh], not [ps]).The table in this article copied the first item, which is misleading, and omitted the second, which is the important one. I will ty to fix that for Etruscan, but the other alphabets should be revised too. --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 03:49, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second line of Etruscan table 

message: Howard from NYC (talk) 04:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  not visible, table in section "Unicode"