Talk:Greater China

message: Since the term is controversial as to its coverage and even legitimacy, I think it'd better provide examples of the usage. I haven't found examples that include Singapore. If there are any out there, please add them to the page. Thank you. --LiuJiageng (talk) 18:09, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples 

message: Thanks User:LiuJiageng's concern. 
WP:LEAD:It should be written in a clear, accessible style with a WP:neutral point of view.
Clearly, current lead written by User:LiuJiageng from China doesn't meet standards of WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reciprocater (talk • contribs) 07:13, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:Lead]] 

message: The island of Taiwan is under the effective jurisdiction of the Republic of China, which officially claims to be the sole legitimate government of the entire China according to its constitution. As such, the phrasing “it gives the impression that Taiwan is part of China” is problematic and awkward. I propose two ways to improve this statement: either change “China” to the “People’s Republic of China”, or to explain the phenomenon that is Taiwanese nationalism that some islanders who do not identify with the ruling Republic of China support. This issue is about political orientation that extends beyond the mere divide of islanders and mainlanders in Taiwan. Morrisonjohn022 (talk) 17:22, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this Constitution was imposed on Taiwanese after 1949 by authoritarian government. People have been forced to accept that. It's not really a Constitution born through a domocratic process. --Reciprocater (Talk) 17:29, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The part on Taiwan 

message: I agree with some of Reciprocater's edits, e.g. changing the reference from news report to academic research. I think it deserves talking about putting them back.--LiuJiageng (talk) 19:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Reciprocater is a troll, but for some weird reasons AnomieBOT just reverted everything to a much earlier version, some of the edits weren't done by Reciprocater at all (we should never rely on the bots). I think we should revert to the last accepted version and manually edit the article if deemed necessary. 2001:8003:9008:1301:ED94:8653:DE31:73A1 (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  It wasn't a bot, but  who did it. I would rather work from when  did not work on the article and pick the non-controversial edits instead. The last few versions was honestly mutilated in my opinion, and I was already tempted to rework the article back to closer to the version before Reciprocater started on this article. See also: Wikipedia:Dealing_with_sock_puppets#Cleaning_up_after_a_sock_puppet_is_blocked robertsky (talk) 14:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Reciprocater|Reciprocater]]'s edits 

message: Of course it will be contentious what images represent Greater China. But we need something, and we need something representative of views of the relevant parties involved. The Wuqiu monument to Chiang Kai-shek has two maps of an ROC conception of Greater China that include Taiwan and Hainan, islands not included on the English language black and white map already on this page. I once tried to make a gallery of images on this page of the Greater China concept, but it was removed. Yeah it's a contentious topic by its very nature, but it's odd not to show any maps or even artistic depictions of any Greater China concept here. Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If I remember the comments you made, I think you once said that this image had some kind of problem. I am of the opinion that an artistic depiction of Mao Tse-tung in front of a map of Greater China (presumably minus Mongolia?) would be equally relevant here. Anyway, I guess you think this image isn't good enough because there's no Singapore. Do we need an image with Sakhalin too? I ask you, is there only one conception of Greater China? Isn't this map a legitimate artistic depiction of one understanding of Greater China on some level, minus the islands not actually controlled by Taiwan or the PRC? Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:08, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  What definition of Greater China are you taking here? In my opinion, since there are at least four definitions of Greater China, there should be multiple images used to depict these different definitions. [1. Claimed territory of the PRC; 2. Claimed territory of the ROC; 3. Countries with Chinese ethnic majorities, i.e. Greater China + Singapore; 4. Chinese sphere of influence, i.e. Chinese-majority countries + Mongolia, North Korea, Vietnam, etc.] The fourth definition seems to already be loosely covered by the article "East Asian cultural sphere". Singapore is not part of China's claimed territory, whether the PRC or the ROC, but it's the only other country in the world aside from PRC, ROC (Taiwan), Hong Kong and Macau with a Chinese ethnic majority. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your definitions are incorrect. Greater China only includes mainland China, Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan (i.e. areas under the administration of either the PRC or the ROC). Southeast Asian countries with a significant Chinese population, including Singapore, the only other country in the world aside from those areas administered by the PRC or the ROC with a Chinese ethnic majority (other notable examples include Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Thailand, Myanmar, and Cambodia) and other Asian countries under significant influence of Chinese culture (i.e. Japan, North Korea, South Korea, and Vietnam) are part of the Sinosphere, not Greater China. I was the Sales Director for Greater China of a Western company and the area under my responsibility only included mainland China, Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan. 2001:8003:9008:1301:91FF:190E:A800:1B4D (talk) 06:05, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

text: That image is a bad example. The map is partially covered by other off-topic objects, so readers can't really see the whole map. And the purpose of the image itself is intended to be used as an example of the landmark of a small groups of islands (its file name is "烏坵嶼地標", which means "Landmark of the Wuqiu Islands") rather than an example of the map of China or "Greater China" at all. --Matt Smith (talk) 01:21, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The maps (there are two, not just the one you are talking about- look "up" in the image) are an artistic representation of Greater China in a mural and are not meant to be scientifically accurate. This is an example of how the concept is portrayed or understood in some parts of Taiwan culture. There's no reason to exclude artistic representations just because one of the maps is sightly obstructed. The point is is that the maps of a Greater China concept are connected with patriotic or nationalistic feeling in this memorial and, regardless of the obstruction, you can clearly see what Greater China is being represented as in these two maps. Just because it's called 烏坵嶼地標 doesn't mean these aren't relevant to this page.  Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:13, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  This article is not for including an off-topic image such as "territories claimed by the Republic of China" which even has some important parts of the territories obstructed. --Matt Smith (talk) 03:02, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are two maps in the image. One is not obstructed. The territories claimed by the Republic of China is one of the conceptions of Greater China, otherwise the other image on this page shouldn't be here. Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  We are not talking about the other image. We are talking about the first one, which is off-topic and is a bad example because it has some important parts of the territories obstructed. --Matt Smith (talk) 08:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are two maps in the image we are discussing- one on the wall, and then one above it, on the globe. Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do you expect all readers to also notice that small one? Also, the ROC has abandoned its claim over Outer Mongolia since 2012 so the maps are no longer accurate. --Matt Smith (talk) 03:05, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  You wrote: "Also, the ROC has abandoned its claim over Outer Mongolia since 2012 so the maps are no longer accurate." Okay, that could be a great point. It's unclear if they can actually drop the claim according to the Constitution, but yeah. Anyway- do we need to ignore their claims before that point? Answer: No. In fact, the historical conception is pretty important to this page. Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  No. It's not an accurate claim and is also off-topic. I disagree with using that image in the article. --Matt Smith (talk) 13:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: All of you are making too much fuss about these, you may present any map with proper explanation, if the issue has history (of course it should not just present today claims, etc.).(KIENGIR (talk) 01:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greater China Map Image