Talk:Prostitution/Archive 1

message: Geisha is not prostitute. "The body is not sold if it sells an art" (芸は売っても身は売らない). Some geishas sell herself and they are looked down as "Daruma Geisha".
So, they denied ask for Recreation and Amusement Association. --Kadzuwo 14:01, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geisha is not prostitute 

message: The verb to prostitute may be used thus: A writer prostituted his talents to write pamphlets supporting a political cause in which he did not believe.  Given that use of the verb, perhaps using the word prostitute to refer to a person selling sex is not NPOV. Besides, shouldn't that more basic meaning of the word be the topic of an article? Michael Hardy 20:39, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV problem?

message: The following are all external links that may be useful for referencing the article. They have been removed from the article per policy. In essense a link is fine if it covers information not in the article if the article were written at a feature article status. The links below would not pass that level but many would be great sources for the article. Banjeboi 11:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible sources 

message: This description of "abolitionism" and "neo-abolitionism" is unreferenced and inaccurate. The established legal situation in France, UK, Canada, etc, is not "abolitionist" and I don't think its ever been described as such. "Neo-abolitionism", a term I haven't heard before, is what's generally referred to as "abolitionism", with the additional definition that prostitution is defined as inherently a form of slavery, which is why it uses a term borrowed (or, critics would say, appropriated) from anti-slavery. I'm unclear what the accepted term is for what is being referred to here as "abolitionism".
Generally, this section is roughly accurate on the 5 legal systems that, with some variation, different countries have adopted in regards to prostitution. "Regulation" is often referred to as "legalization" – if anything, that's the more common term. I think that the New Zealand system is simply a variation on legalization rather than decriminalization, but I'll have to look up in various references how this is treated. "Decriminalization" might be said to more accurately describe the situation in Spain, which has no laws on prostitution one way or the other.
example:
Katie L 
Some fact-checking from strong, verifiable sources is called for here. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 16:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind – I see that there's some clear literature on this, notably Jyrkinen, M. (2005). The Organization of Policy meets Commercialization of Sex. The terminology still represents a relatively recent usage (ie, last five years) and it may not be in wide use, so giving alternate terminology may be called for. I'll add the citation later if nobody else does. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 17:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attitudes and legal issues: Factual accuracy 

message: Could you please use this to show what causes prostitution, why we're still forced to need money?  From "When Corporations Rule the World":
"One of the major challenges faced by colonial administrators was to force those who obtained their livelihoods from their own lands and common areas to give their lands and labor to plantation development, that is, to make them dependent on a money economy so that their resources, labor, and consumption might yield PROFITS to the colonizers.....
"In many colonized countries, the imposition of TAXES payable only in cash was used to force people into the cash economy.....Taxes were imposed on whatever villagers would find it most difficult to do without. In Vietnam, the French imposed taxes on salt, opium, and alcohol. The British in Sudan taxed crops, animals, houses, and households. In their West African colonies, the French punished tax evasion by holding wives and children hostage, whipping men, burning huts, and leaving people tied up without food for several days....."  Stars4change (talk) 01:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That info about forced to need money is the most important info in the history of the world.  A Guaranteed Income &/or Socialism (all people own ALL things) will eliminate money. Stars4change (talk) 01:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

text: The "causes" of prostitution are many, varied, and the subject of a great deal of sociological study and political debate. So, no, I don't think this article should "use this". Iamcuriousblue (talk) 01:43, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cause: forced to need money

message: Prostitution not means only exchange sex for money, but also all the forms which included a recompense- money or products for sexual acts(which is not the same thing with every sexual activity such is masturbation for example).So, porno movies included sexual activities, precisely sex acts, and for this,pornographic actors can be considered, and they must be considered prostitutes.Is not the same kind of ordinary prostitution, but is a very real form of prostitution anyway.I can`t imagine a different right explanation.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.124.100.249 (talk) 09:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What exactly about is prostitution? Who are the prostitutes? 

message: In the politics section there needs to be more on the Sex Workers Outreach Project and Hookers, Escorts, and Masseurs Association SWOP & HEMA and other NGOs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.132.8 (talk) 01:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  outreach 

message: (Note: cross-posting to Talk:Babalon, Talk:Whore of Babylon, Talk:Prostitution)
At present the term "Scarlet woman" has three possible articles:
: Scarlet woman is a redirect to Prostitution
: Scarlet Woman is a redirect to Whore of Babylon
: Babalon opens with Babalon — also known as The Scarlet Woman...
I would propose that both Scarlet woman and Scarlet woman be directed to a page giving links to each of the above articles. If there is no objection I will create the disambiguation page and change the redirects accordingly - does 48 hours seem like a reasonable interval? ElijahOmega (talk) 12:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scarlet Woman 

message: The occurrence section needs to be seriously overhauled -- stating prevalence in Colorado (even if typical of the US) and Amsterdam (which is typical of what, exactly?) does not lead the reader to a more comprehensive understanding of the occurrence of prostitution. The occurrence section should talk about the rates of prostitution globally, illustrating this with case studies which could include Colarado/US and Amsterdam-London (Europe), however these studies should also include prostitution rates in specific areas of S America, Asia and Africa in order that the best overview of the topic can be obtained. Additionally, the global number of people estimated to be engaged in prostitution should be in a prominent location in the article's summary. With thanks,
User:DJCF  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.254.95 (talk) 07:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occurrence 

message: I reverted these edits that replaced citations with original research.--Nutriveg (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting to previous version 

message: I'm taking a class about the history of crime in the US.  Wikipedia is presently very light on 18th century prostitution, but there's a very good book about the subject:  Clare Lyon's "Sex Among the Rabble."  You can read sections of the book at http://books.google.com/books?id=aLeWfe-oamcC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false.  There are also decent academic reviews about the subject--I'll see if I can find any that are open-sourced, as well as other reliable sources for this information.  I'm not asking others to write a section--I'll work on it myself when I have time.  But I started this thread to see if other editors want to work on it, and to share sources.69.94.192.147 (talk) 15:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eighteenth Century Prostitution 

message: Hi, I am a student taking a class on HIV, so I am not the most knowledgeable person writing here. This article suggests that prostitution has a very prominent role to play in the spread of HIV, and while it certainly is a factor, credible scientists and anthropologists have shown that it may not be the largest factor. The book The Invisible Cure: Africa, the West, and the Fight against AIDS, written in 2007 by Helen Epstein, states that Roy Anderson's "sexual mixing" theory, which argues that prostitution is mostly spread from prostitutes to truck drivers and migrant workers and then to the workers' communities, is no longer thought to be the major cause of the spread of HIV in most places. Prevention programs aimed at prostitutes and their clients had little effect. Moreover, Thailand's national HIV infection rate never exceeded 2 percent in the early 1990s, which doesn't make sense considering the number of prostitutes and their clients. Africa, with a much lower prostitution rate, had much higher rates of HIV. The book says that HIV is spread much faster in communities in which having a couple or a few concurrent relationships than in communities with a thriving sex trade. People who see prostitutes are not likely to do so often, and use condoms because of the high risk rate. Because HIV infection is a random process, the infection rate is low among clients who are not repeat customers. But in communities where people have concurrent relationships, there is a much higher level of trust and condoms are not often used. Because partners are having sexual intercourse many times, the likelihood of infection increases dramatically. This provides a breeding ground for HIV. 
I think this article implies that prostitution is by far the most predominant, if not the only, cause of the spread of HIV. The concurrent relationship theory should be mentioned in addition to the sexual mixing theory. Laura Alexander2 (talk) 04:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  HIV and prostitution 

message: My name is Laura Agustín PhD, my book on prostitution is Sex at the Margins, Zed Books 2007, my website is Border Thinking www.nodo50.org/Laura_Agustin . I have published extensively on prostitution and trafficking, am considered an international authority and have no intention of bashing any page on these subjects. There are links and ideas that I believe would enhance some pages; I was just going to start by adding a link to my work on the cultural study of commercial sex, or just my website. Time passes, there's more knowledge, etc. There's a wikip entry for me that isn't up to date but that's not so important. I don't want to do the work to add things if you are opposed.
Manyatlantics (talk) 14:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: - I've added the link as it does look relevant to the topic. However, there is a possibily for a conflict of interest since you are requesting that your own article be added to the list, but I'm pretty sure that it would be added if it were asked by an uninvolved third party. Thanks. 
Set Sail For The Seven Seas 223° 6' 15" NET 14:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request 

message: I'm referring to the picture on the top of the page, with the caption "A modern day street prostitute in Tijuana, Mexico". Do we have ANY evidence that she's actually a prostitute and not just, like, a girl an editor doesn't like?Josh (talk) 20:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly! IMHO the photo needs to be removed.  USchick (talk) 00:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Delete this now!  At the very least it violates WP:BLP.  There are 4 or more comments in the discussion on the photo file page that agree.  It's actually pretty disgusting that this is there.  96.251.96.102 (talk) 01:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "modern day prostitute" 

message: I am currently doing a college project about the ethics of prostitution. In short, My lecturer is adamant that the main reason for which some people want prostitution a crime is that members of the older generation were brought up very differently and wouldnt take things like safety, taxes, fueling crime, endangering prostitutes and making people criminals into consideration as they prefere to be formal/traditional. (how could one cite this? I currently cannot edit this page)
And that younger generations commonly dissaprove of prostitution, but do however see very little benefit in making it illegal. Which probably makes sense in terms of taxes, public order and safety and harm reduction. But of course the main benefit would lie in not having to put people in prison or paying to have them prosecuted etc. so that police time and effort can be spent more appropriately.
PS; any other tips/info on anything ive missed would be usefull.  —Preceding unsignedcomment added by 82.30.229.218 (talk) 01:12, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Reason why some might argue to keep prostitution criminalised/on the black market?

message: Is anyone interested in reworking the intro copy? It's not very accurate the way it is written now.
Prostitution is the act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire.
There are other people who engage in sex acts for hire who are not prostitutes, porn models for example. As an extreme example, doctors perform various "sex acts" including sexual penetration and get paid for it, and their acts are not considered prostitution.
I suggest:
A prostitute is a sex worker who works in the sex industry and provides sexual services for hire. Prostitution is known as the world's oldest profession, dating back to as long as people can remember. In most modern cultures, prostitution is either discouraged or illegal. However, the global sex industry generates over $100 billion in annual revenue.
The next section can be etymology, addressing how the word came about and its metaphor.
I recommend moving human traficking to its own section.
Feel to write your own version. USchick (talk) 02:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this, and I think you're absolutely right about the "human trafficking" mention in the intro. This is unfortunately part of a highly politicized effort to always link prostitution to human trafficking. There, of course, is a such thing as human trafficking for purposes of prostitution, but nevertheless, the two are not the same and should not be conflated. The only thing I would leave out from your suggestions is the cliched phrase "world's oldest profession". Iamcuriousblue (talk) 06:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

text: I changed the definition to one derived from the legal Dutch definition. It excludes sex acts for another person against payment, like in a sex show or peep show.--Patrick (talk) 06:36, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Thank you for your suggestions. I moved the trafficking and terminology to their appropriate sections and changed "against payment" to "in return for payment. "Against payment" sounds like a legal term that's not widely understood. USchick (talk) 19:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

text: I agree. Money is a huge part of prostitution. I say leave it the way it is. Evanmcmike (talk) 04:55, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

text: I have issues with this line too, although I see it as an instance of Ethnocentrism to claim that Western Cultures are necessarily the "modern" ones. Anyhow: To me it is implicit POV to write "In most modern cultures, prostitution is either discouraged or illegal." (my emphasis). "Modern" generally has a positive connotation, similar to "advanced", "enlightened" or "developed" and therefore the implication is created that this is also true for prostitution being illegal or discouraged. It may well be true that prostitution is illegal in most of today's countries (how are the "cultures" in the lead defined and counted, anyway? Is every country exactly one culture? Can several countries share one culture? Can there be several cultures in one country?) but in this case we would have to write it that way ("countries", not "cultures", "today's", not "modern") and need a source for that claim (there is none even further down in the article). Also, the issue would have to be quite one-sided on a worldwide level to justify a strong claim such as this. However, Prosititution is fully legal in (amonst others) Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, Turkey, Greece, Mexico, significant parts of South America, Australia and New Zealand. These examples alone stand for almost 500 Million people. Then there are quite some countries in which prostitution is legal but procuring (i.e. taking financial advantage of prostitutes) is not. It is simplistic to call this a "discouragement" of prostitution. The situation within this group of countries may differ a lot, with some indeed discouraging prositution legally and others just averting the financial exploitation of sex workers by pimps. These countries stand for about another 2 Billion people. I have therefore taken out the statement until it is reformulated in a more neutral manner and there is sufficiant sourcing for it. Janfrie1988 (talk) 00:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro  

message: In the paragraph titled "Other meanings" the quote, "Now he's out in Hollywood, D.B., being a prostitute. If there's one thing I hate, it's the movies. Don't even mention them to me." is followed by "D.B. is of course not literally a prostitute; Holden feels that his job writing B-movie screenplays is morally debasing."
The "of course" in this paragraph is an opinion and should not be included in a encyclopedia. Sry for being picky lol.
Shanyman (talk) 13:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, thank you. sonia♫♪ 23:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Shanyman, 15 July 2010 

message: "See also:
# Köçek, Turkish bath, Bacchá, Hijra (South Asia), Nikah mut‘ah"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gortag (talk • contribs) 22:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the purpose of this? 

message: There is a short paragraph directly under the heading of "Relation to Crime" that states. 
"One of the most serious problems associated with prostitution is the fact that the sex trade is surrounded by illegal, abusive and dangerous activities.[citation needed] One view insists that such situations occur because prostitution is kept illegal and the industry operates on the black market.[citation needed] "
I'm not so sure if these two sentences should even be in there. Especially since  you may notice, there are NO citations for either of these ascertaitions (sp). Actually, the main issue I have is with  the first sentence and the phrasing of,  "....is the fact that the sex trade.... "   If these things are facts, where is the research(or citation) that shows such things. At least change it to "it is believed" or something similar.  But, stating something as a fact(especially in a hotly debated article such as this one), and then not at least provide a citation, isn't right imo.   
The second sentence isnt as bad. But saying, "One view insists...", and then not having a citation to at least let us know who's view it is that "insists" these things, doesn't really make any sense either. 
I  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.179.248.24 (talk) 21:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to Crime section/lack of citations 

message: Surely this paragraph is irrelevent here:
:"During the late 1980s, The Newhall Signal, a weekly newspaper published in Ventura County, California, presented a series of articles about the Church Of The Most High Goddess, founded by Mary Ellen Tracy and her husband Wilbur Tracy, where sexual acts played a fundamental role in the church's sacred rites.[30] The articles aroused the attention of local law enforcement officials, and in April 1989, the Tracy's house was searched and the couple arrested on charges of pimping, pandering and prostitution. They were subsequently convicted in a trial in state court and sentenced to jail terms: Wilbur Tracy for 180 days plus a $1,000.00 fine; Mary Ellen Tracy for 90 days plus mandatory screening for STDs.[31][32]"
It definitely doesn't belong in the Legal and socio-economic status section, and it isn't important enough to be in the rest of the article either. --118.208.114.96 (talk) 09:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *  I agree with you, but we'll let a few more editors pass by and weigh in on this. Crazysane (T/C\D) 17:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

text: *Strongly agree, and therefore I'm removing it. Undue weight to a piece of pretty trivial info, given the topic. If anyone objects, discuss below, and of course it could be reinstated with some consensus. WP:BRD.  Chzz  ►  21:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Unnecessary info

message: whats the matter? no links to capitalism for prostitution? is this website too liberal to challenge capitalism?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4535t43g (talk • contribs) 14:25, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  links to capitalism 

message: Prophet Mohammed had banned temporary marriage, some of what written in this article is based on no fact. The temporary marriage as explained in the article is unaccepted in Islam.Bombastic4ever (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam and temporary marriage 

message: On the map, prostituion is marked as legal and regulated in Denmark. This is not the case. It is legal to sell and buy sex, but it is not regulated as such. Totally different from the forms of prostitution in Germany, the Netherlands, Austria etc.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.113.66.145 (talk) 22:41, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Denmark 

message: While I fully support this subject, why are there none for female sex workers? There should be tons of interesting and suitable stuff to write about this. Just that it hasn't been started? (46.239.122.40 (talk) 17:26, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help and support for male sex workers 

message: Paying For It is a autobiographical book published in 2011 that is all about a person's experience being a "John" in Canada.
As it is written intellectually with a lot of arguments in favor of legalizing it, it should be considered addding it to this article as a reference.
Would others agree? Or does this rather not belong here?
Tempel (talk) 16:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding reference to "Paying For It" 

message: I've heard a lot about pimps or johns being dangerously violent towards these girls, but have there been any cases where prostitutes were violent against one another?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.4.128.166 (talk) 23:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  violent prostitutes 

message: I would suggest deleting the section on consent for the following reasons:
1 It is heavily biased. The two authors cited are well known anti prostitution activists, MacKinnon presented as so (lawyer and activist), but not Farley (psychologist and researcher). No other POV are presented.
2 The use of wording like “vast majority” (MacKinnon) and “she estimates that only 5%” (Farly) suggests that they rely on empirical evidence. They do not, or at least none of the reference links provided come close to help finding such empirical evidence. It is said that “Psychologist and researcher Melissa Farley offers a great deal of research suggesting that very few prostitutes (she estimates that only 5% of women) make the choice freely”. If there is such of great deal of research, a few of them should be cited. Farley’s Internet site on prostitution sometimes says that some of their numbers are “educated guesses”. These guesses, I suggest, are often heavily biased by the ideological POV of their authors and are not materiel for an encyclopedia.
3 Consent is a complex term that may be defined differently by the tribunals, by the psychologists and labour management organisations. The lack of definition seems to permit the citation of a the New York Times columnist Bob Herbert saying “Surveys consistently show that a majority of prostitutes would like to leave the industry.”  That is by no mean a proof that there is a lack of consent. A prostitute may want to leave because of the social pressure, job conditions, money matters, a better project, etc.
4 Prostitution being largely an under world, even in countries where it is legal, it is virtually impossible to get representative samples. Serious attempts to build good and large samples such as those made before and after the Prostitution Reform Act in New Zealand are indeed very rare. When reading the section about avoidance and exiting the sex industry, we find quite different conclusions than the “educated guesses” of Farley and MacKinnon (http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/commercial-property-and-regulatory/prostitution/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrc-report/5-avoiding-or-exiting-the-sex-industry#521). When analysing all the “push and pull” factors explaining entering/remaining/exiting prostitution, it is hard to reduce the notion of consent to a yes or no answer.
5 Some authors conclude easily that there is rarely a true consent based of the presumption that entry in prostitution is at an early age, using average ages as low as 12 to 14 years old. Professor and activist Richard Poulain, for instance, says that the average age of entry in prostitution in Canada is 14 years old, a number inferred either from outside Canada or from small samples of street prostitutes. The New Zealand sample (N=771), a country comparable to Canada in many respects, shows different figures: the vast majority (81%) of prostitutes entered the industry when they were 18 or over. (http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/commercial-property-and-regulatory/prostitution/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/impact-health-safety/4.-socio-demographic-characteristics-of-the-survey-and-qualitative-samples#table41) see section 4.2.3
My first contribution on wiki, sorry if any rule infringement.
Gustave55555 (talk) 01:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consent 

message: What do people think about the See alsos? Currently they are:
* Comfort women
* German camp brothels in World War II
* International Day to End Violence Against Sex Workers
* Köçek, Turkish bath, Bacchá, Hijra (South Asia), Nikah mut‘ah
* Meshimori onna
* Recreation and Amusement Association
* Sanky-panky
* The House of Dolls
* Top (BDSM)
That's a pretty random collection of topics related and tangentially related to prostitution. I'm not sure what a good standard is, and I think inevitably there'll be some POV pushing on what to include or not. Any thoughts? TJ Black (talk) 05:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also