Talk:Australian English phonology/Archive 2

message: I have changed the values of demand and grasp to 99% for Adelaide. I am Adelaide born - I and many of my friends pronouce demand and grasp with an /æ/.
: That's all very well, but (a) adding information based on how you and your friends speak generally counts as unverified original research, (b) those figures are from a (fairly small, I think, looking at the numbers) sample of speakers in the different cities, and the quoted findings are 100% long A for both of those words in Adelaide - we can't change the findings of that study.--JHJ 11:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Variation between /aː/ and /æ/ 

message: The article states "Australian English lacks some innovations in Cockney since the settling of Australia, such as the use of a glottal stop in some places where a /t/ would be found, th-fronting, h-dropping, and l-vocalisation." meaning that l-vocalisation is absent in Australian English. In my experience, it's extremely common ... 122.108.167.147 (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, though it's far from universal. I was private schooled (in Adelaide) where it was thought of as unclean pronunciation, so the habit is corrected at a young age for people in my social group.--121.45.73.208 (talk) 12:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  L-Vocalisation 

message: The table "Variation between /æ/ and /aː/", based on Crystal does not include Perth/WA. Does this reflect Crystal's work, or is it an accidental omission? Grant65 (Talk) 06:15, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
: I'm not sure, but I think my mother has a copy of that Encyclopedia, so I might be able to find out. Other people might be able to find out sooner than I can though. (Given it's an encyclopedia, Crystal probably didn't do the original research, though ;) — Felix the Cassowary 12:03, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Perth? 

message: The table below is of various competing orthographies for Australian English vowel phonemes:
Competing Orthographies for Australian English Vowel Phonemes	Competing Orthographies for Australian English Vowel Phonemes	Competing Orthographies for Australian English Vowel Phonemes	Competing Orthographies for Australian English Vowel Phonemes	Competing Orthographies for Australian English Vowel Phonemes
Mitchell & Delbridge (1965)                                  	Durie & Hajek (1994)                                         	Ingram (1995)                                                	Harrington, Cox & Evans (1997)                               	Examples
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hid
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	heed, happy
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	head
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hair, yeah
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hat, had
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	bad
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hut
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hard, fast
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hot
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	horde, dawn
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hood
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hoon
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	banana, centre
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	heard
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hate
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hide
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	howl
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hope
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	hoist
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	beard, hear, idea
                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	                                                             	tour, pure
I have put this comparative table in this talk page to show some of the competing orthographies for Australian vowel phonemes that have been created by various Australian Linguists (see here for references). – AxSkov (☏) 16:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: M.-D. don't use lenght symbols, do they? At least, the Macq. doesn't, nor do modern publications that use them. — Felix the Cassowary 03:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Good-good, I haven't read anything by them so I didn't want to edit it if I was wrong. — Felix the Cassowary 04:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Competing Orthographies 

message: The golf-gulf merger article is in danger of being deleted. 64.194.44.220 22:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And, User:64.194.44.220, you can save it.  Just find us a reliable source. Jimp 06:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golf-gulf merger 

message: Altered the reference from 'In Victoria..' to 'for some Victorian speakers...' since this merger is far from universal.
61.69.244.153 03:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celery/salary merger 

message: I am aware that in AusEng, "our" is often pronounced as , eg "our car" . But there are two things I'd really like to know:
1) Is this pronunciation used before vowels, eg "our aunt" ?
2) Can the adjective "ours" be pronounced as ? --The Lazar 03:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes (well, I have  in that context) and yes; these are usual. Some people do say  tho, particularly if ‘speaking properly’. If this is a perculiar feature of AusE and doesn’t constitute original research, then it should be mentioned, perhaps along with Australian-specific pronounciations like auction with a short vowel. The pronunciation [aː] and [aːz] like they use in England are unlikely to be heard here, but I have a friend from NZ at Uni who does precisely that. —Felix the Cassowary 08:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can second everything Felix said (except for the bit about having a NZ friend at Uni). Jimp 07:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of "our", "ours" 

message: ...is used in the article but completely unexplained.  What does it stand for?  Why is it there?  Widsith 14:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An anonymous user deleted a considerable portion of this article a while ago. I’ve restored it. Hopefully it explains it adequately now. —Felix the Cassowary 02:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  M.-D. 

message: Does anyone know why Harrington et.al advocate the use
of the symbol ɔ for the vowel in "hot"?
In the IPA, this symbol represents cardinal vowel 6, which is rounded. Now unless my pronunciation is different from other people's, I would say that Oz. Eng doesn't round this
vowel. Wouldn't "ʌ" be more appropriate? 
On the other hand, the sound recordings I've heard of [ʌ] don't sound very close to "o".
Marquetry28 14:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For a phonemic transcription, the less rounding diachritic wouldn't really be appropriate.  There are two things to keep in mind.  One is that low back vowels tend to be less rounded than high back vowels.  Also keep in mind that most dialects of English don't have cardinal , such as RP or GA where it may even be closer to .  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 14:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for  /ɔ/   

message: I posted this at the IPA chart for English a while back but I'd probably get a better response (or a response) here. As far as I can hear in Australian English (Sydney, at least) 'winner' wouldn't end with a schwa but an 'ah'-ish sound, 'win-ah', same with words like 'here'/'near' ('he-ah'/'knee-ah'), same for other examples on this page ('win-tah'). And /ʊə/ in tour is by no means rare, except, again the schwa is more of an 'ah' sound. +Hexagon1 (t) 05:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A/schwa 

message: Since many Australian names are given pronunciations with the generic English conventions of help:pronunciation, but others are linked here, I thought it would be useful to include a conversion chart. I'm not sure about one of the <or> vowels. kwami (talk) 09:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That was right; really old Australian English (i.e. descriptions the 19th century) had a distinct  vowel, but it was by far the first of the centring diphthongs to monophthongise. —Felix the Cassowary 11:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  comparison chart 

message: Everyone knows the stereotypical /аɪ/ in Australian English is [ɒɪ] or something like that.  How common is this realization?  I would like to hear this from an Aussie. Thegryseone (talk) 21:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A proper /аɪ/ sound sounds posh to an Aussie.  The usual pronunciation is /ɑɪ/ (which can sound very close to /ɔɪ/), and the ocker pronunciation is /ɑ:/.  That means that "buy" sounds a little bit like "boy" for some people, and "ice" sounds exactly like "arse" when ocker people say it.  Of course, there is no confusion, because anyone who would pronounce "ice" like that would pronounce "arse" with a strongly fronted /a:/.  — Chameleon 09:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never actually heard anyone's pronunciation of "buy" even slightly rhyme with "boy". Also to take into consideration, the area I live in consists mostly of Cultivated and some general Australian accents. --121.45.73.208 (talk) 11:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The /аɪ/ Vowel

message: Hi I was wondering if anyone can help me, my 5yr old has started pri primary.He has started on phonetics which i do not under stand at all.his teacher has told him the action for the letter p is like blowing on a candle so now he is convince that candle starts with p. Is there any information i can get my hands on so im not left behind  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.221.214.54 (talk) 13:06, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell him that you blow the candle out with a p-p-puff ... no, blowing out a candle is usually more of a [ɸ] (which is a bit like a [f] without having your teeth get in the way).  Is he an ESL learner?  If not, why the hell is the teacher instructing him on how to pronounce these phonemes (sounds)?  You're more worried about connecting sounds and letters be careful, though, since it's not as simple as it could be (one letter or letter combo can correspond to a number of different sounds & one sound can be written in a number of different ways).  Do you have a library near by?  Get some kids' books & read to him. JIMp talk·cont 17:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  understanding phonetics 

message: Hi, this is just a phonetics question (as most of my questions are).  I've seen the Aussie BATH/PALM/START vowel narrowly transcribed as a low front  in several places.  Is it really ever pronounced that way?  Here it shows more of a low central vowel. Thegryseone (talk) 13:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is more central.   instead of  is more of a convenience, just as we often use  for the consonant in ray.  See #Wrong Symbols?. JIMp talk·cont 17:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: BATH/PALM/START

message: Does Australian English have a CLOTH vowel that is distinct from its LOT vowel? Thegryseone (talk) 19:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No. LOT = CLOTH ≠ THOUGHT JIMp talk·cont 17:38, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: CLOTH

message: The article (loosely) states that "en-AU lack some innovations present in Cockney such as the glottalisation of of /t/, th-fronting, and h-dropping".
I can vouch that I've heard all of those innovations in Aussie speech, and the latter two quite often (in fact, I'm pretty sure I involuntarily glottalise 't's after a short vowels, but that's probably just me). So are we sure that there isn't a noticable amount of people who would say 'fink' for think, or 'wiv' for with? And/or who drop off /h/ mid-speech (as in 'look at their new 'ouse as opposed to house)? Because otherwise the sentence
is flawed. En-AU Speaker (T)</span> (C) (E) 05:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Cockney Innovations?