Talk:Neoclassical metal

message: can John Norum be added to this article, The song Aphasia fits in this genre - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmpz6PQwLc4 Thor cherubim (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: John Norum

message: Most neo-classical pickers aren't classically trained. This statement is a self-contradiction: the electric guitar has only existed as we know it today for a little more than 50 years; clearly no classical music was ever written for an electric guitar, so how could there be any such thing as a "classically trained" electric guitarist? In fact, the vast majority of well known shredders (Yngwie, Van Halen) are self taught, or Jazz-trained (Petrucci). Not classically trained! I'm changing this; if anyone disagrees let me know.
: I think you´re forgeting Randy Rhoads. He was classically trained, in fact many shredders are classically trained (Luca Turilli is another example, although I would not classify him as a shredder). The electric guitar can subsitute for an accoustic guitar in (almost) any occasion (the opposite isn´t true), so an electric guitarrist may be classically trained in an electric guitar. Nikolo Kotzev is also classically trained (he was a violonist in the first place). The Great Kat too is classically trained. In fact how can you be sure about the formation of those artists? Petrucci graduated from the Berklee College of Music where he certainly was classically trained to some extent (or to the "full" extent :-). I think there´s no point denying that some (perhaps many) New-classical guitarrists have classical training. Loudenvier 18:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And I also forgot that classical training is not tied to an instrument. Both of Angra´s guitarrists (Kiko Loureiro and Rafael Bittencour) have graduations on classical music composition. Loudenvier 18:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

text: As I have stated below, there is Classical Music specifically written for the electric guitar (if I'm not wrong, even Karlheinz Stockhausen has pieces of the genre). You are wrong when you say that the electric guitar can almost always replace the acoustic guitar. The classical guitar technique of playing has nothing to do with the electric guitar technique. For instance, in the electric guitar you use a pick, while in the acoustic classical guitar you are required to use your fingernails. This limits very much the capacity of the electrical guitar to play counterpunctual pieces written for or adapted to the classical acoustic guitar. In the acoustic guitar, you may use your five fingers at the same time- that is, you have 5 picks simultaneously- what allows you to play base and solo in the same instrument (what is only possible through tapping in the electric guitar), or counterpoint.
We have to decided what is classical training actually.
My best regards,
--200.158.156.160 20:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Influence doesnt make them part of this genre of music. Ley Shade 21:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Still, a quick listen to almost any Symphony X song would reveal that Neoclassical metal is one of the most prevalent styles in their songs.  -Achates 14:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What about adding Luca Turilli (Rhapsody)?

message: I noticed that many Visual Kei bands are featured in here, Neo-classical metal. So the question is: is there any difference between VK and NCM, or is VK a subgenre of NCM? I am saying this because many VK artist have all the requirement to denote themselves as NCM. 154.5.47.4 01:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: VK is not in the same league as NCM. --202.86.204.197 07:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Visual Kei or Neo-classical Metal? 

message: What the hell is Euroforce. Before i saw they in the list i'v never seen the name Euroforce. Please bring only local neo-classical metal-bands into the list. And in the finally. Any reasons for the existence of 
Euroforce. Are they underground-neoclassical metal band? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.112.15.197 (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Euroforce is a band founded by a Greek neo-classical guitarist called Theodore Ziras. Ziras's solo work is neo-classical (in my opinion), but I heard Euroforce belongs to Power Metal but I am not sure since I haven't heard any songs by Euroforce myself. --cheungie 04:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some bands in the list in the back of days 

message: Isn't neoclassical supposed to be one word?--69.118.235.97 21:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "neo-classical" 

message: ::I had completely forgotten that issue. So let me reply to your comments.
1) Due to the nature of the internet, theres no easy way to validate anyones credentials, hence why claims need to be backed up by sources rather than accepted on authority (even if this authority is justified). (...)Even if it were possible to verify credentials, sources would still be necessary so that readers could find out who was making the claims, and to what extent they reflected consensus.
:: I totally agree but your argument is off-topic, as I’m not trying to insert any edits in the name of my authority. So you miss the point if you try to argue about this.  I was just confirming the guy was correct even though I agree he was biased anyway and his wording was inappropriate and so needed to be deleted. On the other hand I care about fairness.
2)This is why I initially distinguished between facts and editorials. What made the section I removed even worse was the extreme use of weasel words ('many people claim'/'some argue'). This is a general wikipedia policy and applies to all articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words
::I agree: the apparent use of a non neutral tone plus the use of weasel words totally justifies your removal. I don’t deny that. So there is no need to insist on that. If you need to insist on that, I guess that’s because you missed my point.
3) In general, I think it would be a good idea to (eg) cite a song when you say something like 'neo-classical pieces often feature X'. It surely wouldnt be that hard to find some neo-classical song which quotes Vivaldi or whatever. A source in this context doesnt have to be an academic paper, it can be a piece of music.
::Yes I could claim that a song  -say “Rise of Sodom and Gomorrah” from Therion - contains a harmonic progression (cycle of fifths) when it is completly wrong. I’m pretty sure no one here would notice it. Because most of the fans of metal generally ignore harmonic theory. 
::So your proposal has its limits.  I’m ok with the idea of  quoting a song as an example as long as people can check the relevance of it. Otherwise I do demand references. 
::Sure I could confirm by my own analysis whether it is correct or not, but as you said in your 1. , my authority is not sufficient for that. Only references are. 
::And I don’t care about that argument “ its unreasonable to expect every single claim in a pop culture article to be referenced.”  Since you are so concerned about wikipedia’s policy you must know that the Wikipedia:Citing sources applies to any article including popular music.  There is no exception about this even if it would suit some.
4)(...) Wikipedia is meant to be an encylopedia, and the casual reader needs some way of determining whether the views in the article are correct/widely held. Is it really true that 'many people' claim such-and-such? Does 'some argue' imply a significant number of people, or is it similar to 'some argue that the earth is flat'? And so on.
:: I agree with all the issues concerning Wikipedia policy. But once again if you need to insist on that, I guess that’s because you missed my point. Alpha Ursae Minoris 09:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editorials (part 2)

message: How come Wintersun are classified as Neo-Classical metal??? Well their music is quite technical and there's a shredding here and there
in their music, but still, fast shredding&sympho-keybords per se do not obviously make the band "Neo-Classical metal"!!!! Neo-Classical
metal bands used the moods and techniques or in genrally saying structures of the classical music rather than melodies and atmosphere wich sympho metal bands do. Actually there are no sweepping shred and music of Wintersun generally lacks of the structures of Classical music, all is based Symphonic Progressive metal with melodeath (guitar melodies and some lower harsh vocal shrieks), folk, viking metal (the clean singin), blackened thrash metal (harsh vocals)  and even some doom metal or gothic metal (Actually these spoken whispers in "Beyond The Darksun", "Battle Against Time", "Beautiful Death" and "Sadness and Hate" sounds like kinda doomy or gothic like the clean whisper vocals borrowed in Tiamat's Wildhoney or some of My Dying Bride's spoken dooming "preachvocals" however), but definitely Wintersun is not Neo-Classical metal. Finally who are called Wintersun Neo-Classical metal?? Any sources (no i do'nt trust the AMG because actually they speak the bullshit from the some bands such as exp. Children of Bodom)???
:But Children of Bodom sometimes do quote Mozart (at least on the first few albums), and are well-known for that. As for Wintersun, I'm not sure if there are any direct quotations from classical music (I remember someone claiming one in "Starchild", but can't remember what exactly; might have referred to one of the keyboard riffs/parts at around three and six minutes), but the music has a baroque feel about it; at least it veers into shred territory enough to make that association. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:31, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wintersun 

message: At present, this article is almost exclusively OR. This needs to be fixed in the very near future or deleted. If it cannot be fixed in a short time frame, it should be deleted and potentially re-created when it has been written to exclude OR. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 01:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed some other blatant OR that you forgot to remove. Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 06:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Or we can just re-stubify it after removing all the original research. --Bardin (talk) 07:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What should we even do?  I like neo-classical metal and it is a real subgenre, but it seems as if there are no sources for it, or if there are, no one is finding them. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 22:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's the genre entry on Allmusic here. That alone should make this article safe from being deleted. It's just the current condition of the article that's the problem. It's probably just best to wipe it off and start the article all over again as Blackmetalbaz suggests, only as a stub instead of delete and recreate. --Bardin (talk) 01:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research

message: No artists list. JackorKnave (talk) 18:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, there should be a list made!  There's a good amount of artists in the genre. I think a list has been delayed thus far because this article itself needs so much work as it is. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 19:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: No List

message: http://neoclassicalmetal.net/ explains neo-classical metal and talks about its origins, etc. We feep talking about how the page doesn't have enough sources and now here's a good one. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 18:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a great find! For too long I've been trying to figure out what this genre was all about because I just know Malmsteen was a very important figure for it but I don't exactly know what makes it "neo-classical metal". I'll add cello rock to the See Also section. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  02:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Also is it just me or is it a fairly new site — the links aren't working... (at least for me) −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  03:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no author identified either so I'm extremely skeptical that it can be considered a reliable source. --Bardin (talk) 08:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finally, a source we can use for this page!!!! 

message: Ummm... the string quartet isn't a musical form; it is a type of ensemble. Jmclark (talk) 07:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not the person who wrote the passage you're apparently refering to.Actually there's a misunderstanding going on here - and it is quite frequent among people that are not very familiar with classical terminology. Actually, it is not wrong to talk of it as a musical form too. Of course, you're right, string quartet is first an ensemble. This is not questioned. But in classical, we also refer to string quartet as a special musical genre or form (if your prefer) dedicated to the above mentioned ensemble. (note the word "genre" has a special meaning in classical, it doesn't mean " style". It refers to musicals format such as symphonies or sonatas). This genre (not the string ensemble) emerged at the end of the 18th century. Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 09:39, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  String Quartet 

message: I think this article should be renamed to Neoclassical metal, because why this sub-genre is the only "Neoclassical" with a hyphen, see the Neoclassicism, Neoclassical Dark Wave, and Neoclassical New Age — Preceding unsigned comment added by GlitterDream (talk • contribs) 07:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I know absolutely nothing about this subject, and only watch this article to prevent vanity additions to it. However, please sign your messages with four tildes like this: "~~~~". Graham87 16:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your answer (sarcasm) GlitterDream (talk) 08:08, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo-Classical metal to Neoclassical metal 

message: I think Michael Angelo Batio and Chris Impellitteri should be included in this article, as they are both notable neoclassical metal guitar players. Thanks Fashionster (talk) 16:54, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael Angelo Batio and Chris Impellitteri

message: I've noticed that recently there has been a trend for solo metal musicians to make metal arrangements of popular music, including both tunes from songs and soundtracks. These musicians generally do not play neoclassical metal in the technical sense, but the scene appears to be derived from the neoclassical metal scene. I wonder if these artists can be considered an extension of neoclassical metal. Ganondox (talk) Ganondox (talk) 22:14, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What do reliable sources say about these musicians?  That's the real question, it doesn't matter if we think they can or cannot be.  - FlightTime (open channel) 22:30, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence on other forms of instrumental metal