Talk:Indian summer

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thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Time/Assessment|WikiProject Time assessment rating]] comment 

message: The Old Farmer's Almanac claims that a true Indian Summer Day can only occur between November 11th and the 20th, citing a proverb: "'If All-Saints brings out winter, St Martin's brings out Indian summer.' Accordingly, Indian summer can occur between St Martin's Day, November 11th and November 20th." But All-Saints Day is November 1st. What gives? - Brigham
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This article seems to suggest that the term only applies in North America - it ain't so, the term is used in the UK and for all I know other parts of Europe too. This might help shed some light on its etymology, it may in fact long predate US colonisation (???). Quite often in England there is a late warm period, usually in late September or early October (which at such latitude is normally heading well into autumn), and this is commonly referred to as an Indian summer. GRAHAMUK 10:18, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: In Germany the term is also wellknown as a fact of tourism to Canada and Vermont, but it is different to the german expression "Altweibersommer". --Herrick 10:30, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

text: In July–October 2004, the article did indeed mention this possibility. User:TheGrza removed that speculation, though, saying it doesn't make sense, because "summer is being given AGAIN". But to me, it seems the summer that is being given is so short-lived, it is as if it is a gift that is taken away right away, hence it's just like "Indian giver"; the use of "Indian" carries the same general connotation of deceitfulness. It also seems unlikely that the qualifier "Indian" would've been used benignly by European settlers in the 1780s. — mjb 06:34, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

text: It seems to me that an etymological speculation should not be removed just because it doesn't make sense, unless there was no evidence for it at all. In any case, it is clear that the phrase has a long history in Europe and, to me, this invalidates the US etymology since a US phrase is unlikely to be so prevalent in Europe (things such as this didn't spread so easily in those days). Of course, it is possible that the same phrase could develop in two places independently, and so would have two different etymologies. Davidmaxwaterman (talk) 01:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: I added another definition for indian summer.  Where I'm from (southern United States) it is often used to describe dog days or the hottest days of the year.  I also added a link to the dog days article as I think that term is much more common.  I'm trying to find a citation for this but it's hard to find a reputable one for what is essentially regional colloquial slang :)
Donald Antonini 14:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In England there used to be a "little summer of St Luke", whose feast day is 18 October. Poshseagull (talk) 17:34, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

text: Just thought I would add ( yet another ) take on this term. Where I grew up in Michigan, we often used this term to describe a particular, unexpected, surreal, and sudden warming of the weather. [ Similar in idea to the "unexpected blooming" definition. ] However, in our sense, the comment was not merely an idle one, but rather to put others on notice, since this kind of weather might produce a tornado. 71.126.10.33 (talk) 03:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  another definition 

message: We've used that term to refer to the warm spell in February. 67.188.172.165
>Could you give a location for that usage? Robina Fox 13:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: February

message: What names are there for periods of warm sunny weather in the spring?  They certainly seem to be common here in Britain. -- Smjg 17:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't remember which, but, there was a Stephen King novel which called it a "strawberry spring". --198.49.180.40 (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

text: I grew up in New England, like Stephen King, and we called it a false spring. Another Editor (talk) 04:27, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The other half of the year 

message: "Indian summer also has been referenced as the first 3-day warm period following falls first hard freeze(referenced as "squaw's winter"). Not a part of native folklore. Used by early settlers.
: As a senior Canadian we were also told that this period always fell after the first snowfall or hard frost. Most of the article is written as if the US is the only country involved. In 2010 this mini-season is currently falling on November 7-15th.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.149.54 (talk) 15:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could do with a rewrite 

message: Are there any references for the absurd claim that it has to be in a particular month with particular leaf colouration and temperature? Turkeyphant 17:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have brought the definition back in line with the reference. Bridgeplayer (talk) 18:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's what the ref says it's still ridiculous. Indian summers have nothing to do with frost or a particular temperature. All it means is an unusually warm late summer. For example, see the OED: (http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/94406?redirectedFrom=indian%20summer#) Turkeyphant 01:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridiculous definition 

message: The 1853  novel Villette by the British author Charlotte Bronte uses the term Indian summer (p. 137 of the 2007 Dover edition) in 
:About this time [in September in France] the Indian summer closed and the equinoctial storms began; ....
This usage is different than what is mentioned here in the "in Europe section". Duoduoduo (talk) 20:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: In France and Britain in the 1800s

message: ... what is wrong with you people? Nature of the thing, there is no Indian summer in the desert southwest; there is no such thing as Indian summer, in Los Angeles. A late autumnal, early winter rebound of unseasonable warmth, a function of temperature regression ex post the first autumnal killer frost, Indian summer does not (NOT) occur in Mediterranean biomes. Indian summer is not (NOT) an unseasonable warmth in early autumn. There is no (NO) such thing as an Indian summer, in early autumn -- QED, asj.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.89.240 (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess the answer is that this entry is about how the term Indian summer is used and variant descriptions of warm spells in other climes, not the definition you've supplied, which seems to be far narrower than the usage. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 16:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  ... Indian summer does not occur in a Mediterranean biome ~ 

message: "On the Indian subcontinent, it's referred to merely as 'summer'."
I'm removing this, because it's abundantly evident that the word "Indian" in the phrase has nothing to do with the Indian subcontinent, and I strongly doubt that anyone anywhere calls a period of unseasonably warm weather after a period of more seasonally appropriate temperatures just "summer".  I assume this was added because someone thought it was funny.216.70.243.82 (talk) 14:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unneeded Snarkiness 

message: This article is about a term of US origin describing a phenomenon primarily affecting the United States, and the definition given is from the United States National Weather Service. Does it not make more sense, then, to put the US measurement system BEFORE the international one? I suggest the following revision to the intro paragraph:  The US National Weather Service defines this as weather conditions that are sunny and clear with temperatures above 70 °F (21 °C), occurring late-September to mid-November.68.112.148.213 (talk) 18:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Wikipedia policy agrees with you that non-scientific articles should use the local measuring system. However, I checked the reference and the US NWS does not mention any temp. so the question is moot. Temp removed. PS for the record the term Indian Summer is also widely used in Canada where no one under the age of 60 really grasps °F. --Cornellier (talk) 02:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fahrenheit versus Centigrade 

message: Hello - 
I've added a section on controversy, and added five separate citations to support the addition.  My intention is to to address what appears to be a fairly common question regarding the potentially pejorative nature of this phrase in a way that looks toward genuine analysis.  I agree with the above that this article overall needs more citation and work, and intend to continue working on this article (both the existing content and the controversy section). I hope to eventually be able justify the removal of the references needed tag.
Please let me know if you have questions or concerns.
Thanks!
EvanClifthorne (talk) 19:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Evan. This article is not the right place for a discussion of the nuances of the term Indian, since it's not proven that the etymology of the term Indian summer relates to racism towards Native Americans in the United States. --Cornellier (talk) 11:52, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The "controversy" edits are excessively biased: They refer to sources such as a web site titled "put that shit on the list", the edits cherry-pick certain speculated negative connotations and rephrase them originally into Wikipedia's article, thereby omitting all the positive connotations throughout history that are mentioned in these and already existing more neutrally written references. There doesn't appear to be a controversy other than an inflammatory and provocative agenda by above-mentioned web site and the "Philadelphia News an Opinion" (from their "opinion" section); both these agitators generate their revenue by attention rather than correctness. I see no basis for encyclopedic interest. I like William Deedler's article (from the U.S. weather service), but that was already there before this weeks edits. Since the edits are so excessively slanted I suggest reverting and then attempting to put this marginal topic into a footnote maybe, or a small paragraph at the end. 199.72.62.66 (talk) 19:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is a fair assessment of the situation. Reverting these edits is the right thing to do. --Cornellier (talk) 20:05, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

text: Look at this agitator, lel. 2601:989:4300:20B0:7419:8BF3:8EB3:BFE (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added Section on Controversy 

message: I would like if we could directly cite the letter and the essay referring to it. Anyone know if copies are available online? Can we find any earlier references? 64.228.90.179 (talk) 18:42, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: 1778 and 1996

message: I don't think "Indian Summer" mean the same thing in English as it does it other languages. In some other languages, the term is commonly used to refer to what would be considered "Fall Foliage" in North American English. --207.38.206.45 (talk) 05:36, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation 

message: In Northwestern Quebec in the early 1900s, the term Indian summer was certainly used to describe this unseasonably warm period in the fall. This is how my father, a trapper in his young age who had an assigned "hunting territory" alongside natives' territories, described it to me in my youth: it is that period, after the first snow(s) has(have) melted, where the hare's fur has changed to white, and until (approximately) the next snowfall. During this period, the hare is vulnerable as it stands out against the once-again dark background. This is not a scientific determination but an anecdotal one, and the one I would always use then, when hunting rabbits. As I recall, however, and contrary to what is depicted in the photograph in the main page, leaves are mostly gone by that time. 142.113.241.23 (talk) 02:45, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Été indien 

message: Hello everyone. I added a section to the intro about how the American Meteorological Society no longer uses this term. Since this section has already been removed once by an anonymous editor, I figured I'd leave a note here in case anyone wanted to discuss it. Whether or not you agree with the AMS's stance, this commentary on the term by one of the leading US meteorological groups seems noteworthy enough to include in the article. I'm not married to the idea of having it in the introductory section, and would be fine if it was moved to the "Usage" section if that was the consensus. Parliament of Owls (talk) 19:06, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  American Meteorological Society discouraged use 

message: It likely had more to do with the middle and upper classes in Britain (and Europe), referring to the fact that (much of) India doesn't really have a winter. Since merchants, military personnel, officers, Viscounts, Aristocrats, civilians, were, as a whole, on regular journeys to India, or knew people who were, they would use it to refer to an extra long summer in England. Brits didn't use to easily take up American terms (they do now) - and 100 years ago, Canadians tended to take up British phrases, not American ones - so the American source for longtime widespread British usage is unlikely.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.186.105.0 (talk) 16:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:   India 

message: I always capitalize the names of the seasons. I am not sure if this is correct. BookeWorme (talk) 19:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should "Summer" be capitalized?