Talk:Rudolf Hess/Archive 1

message: The Olivia Newton-John page states that Hess was arrested by Brin Newton-John, but without a source.  Anyone here know anything about it? 159.92.30.108 16:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arrest

message: Can somebody please confirm are the following information regarding Hess reliable?
- "[the journey] was actually a scheme conceived by James Bond author Ian Fleming". What other sources are used other than the book? Isn't this the "official" british version rather than a fact? (just wondering)
- "He degenerated mentally and apparently lost most of his memory". How about this, where has the information came from? Who else was allowed to speak to imprisoned Hess other than his son (i.e. reliable source)?
*I can't confirm or deny the other claims (I didn't write any of them), but I believe I heard this one on the history channel. If I recall correctly, the guards did talk with Hess on occasion. He was struck with a terrible case of amnesia. The guards were not sure whether or not he was faking though. --Raul654 10:45, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt it Janne, the Russians originally wanted Hess to receive the death penalty, the Americans and the British didn't hence the life imprisonment. PhilipPage 23:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable information sources? 

message: Is anyone familiar with the theory that the man who flew to Britain in 1941 claiming to be Rudolph Hess was in fact an impostor? I came across some book in a used book store a few years ago about this; now i'm sort of wishing I'd bought it. I don't remember the details, but I did a quick google search and got some hits. I don't suppose there's any truth to it, but is it worth addressing in the entry as a conspiracy theory?     -R. fiend
:Not without a source, I'd think. (First I've heard of it!) If the man who flew to Britain wasn't Hess, then who was locked up in Spandau? - David Gerard 18:30, Mar 30, 2004 (UTC)
I believe the book I glanced at years ago may have been "The Murder of Rudolph Hess" by Hugh Thomas, who I guess was a doctor who examined Hess and found some descrepencies. The point of the book was that Hess wasn't the man in Spandau either. I guess maybe he even could still be on the loose somewhere. I doubt the argument is terribly convincing, and this theory may well be too obscure to warrant inclusion in the article, but I thought I'd mention it. Somewhere I came across a description of Thomas's book as a "bestseller", which would perhaps imply that the theory was somewhat well known for a time, however since it seems very difficult to find a copy of this book now that description may have been quite a hyperbole. In any case a google search of Rudolph Hess impostor does lead to a few sites that mention this theory, mostly based on Thomas's book I would guess.    -R. fiend
:Well, I think there should be added some more facts about Hess first, before we start discussing all the conspiracy theories about him. IMHO there are enough speculations and absurd theories in the article right now. And yes, I think you're right and it's the book by Hugh Thomas, I came across with it a while ago, but it was too absurd IMO. Captain-c 16:08, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hess impostor? 

message: re "...became focused on the generals, Hermann Göring, Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler."
A minor quibble, but was Goebbels a general?  I'm aware that there was some blurring of military and civilian roles in Nazi Germany, so this is certainly possible. Even the article on Himmler doesn't use the term 'general', but perhaps "Reichsführer" connotes an equivalent rank. --Rapscallion 03:09, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "General" Goebbels? 

message: The article does not specifically (only generically) state why he was convicted in the Nurenberg. Someone should add details, e.g. he was proven to have raped six jewish girls, hanged three rabbies, burnt seven synangogues, skinned gays, etc. Without specifics the nazi will continue to say he was condemned in a pre-arranged trial.
*What a load of crap. And if rape was a war crime, they'd have to have sentenced 3/4 of the Russian and 1/4 of the western allied army to death.
:: Please sign your posts and there is no need to be rude.  I think the writer above was simply using these as examples...not as facts.  --Maustrauser 11:52, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is similar to a question I had. Why did this man, who obviously left before the full force of the Final Solution and with some sort of peace in mind, get tried for crimes against peace and imprisoned for life? Why was everyone else released and him left the sole inhabitant of the prison?--Prosfilaes 18:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why exactly he was found guilty is not specifically stated. 

message: Both Rudolf Hess and Wolf Rüdiger Hess mention claims about Rudolf Hess being killed by the British SAS. The German articles, however, claim it was the British SIS. Which one is correct? Ini 19:43, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  British SAS vs. British SIS 

message: I don't think a reference from a band not listed on Wikipedia is worth including in the article. I will say, however, that including it in an edit that stripped links and added purely POV text, and then readding it in a message that accused those deleting it of being Zionists was the perfect way to convince me of its value.
On a cross note, Katherine Kurtz's Adept series included a reference to Rudolf Hess in The Lodge of the Lynx; in this fictional universe, his goal in flying to England was to carry a torc of great mystic power away from Hitler's hands. I tend to dislike a huge list of pop culture references, though, so I leave it to someone else to make the decision to add it. --Prosfilaes 04:58, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto, absolutely agree regarding the first paragraph. chowells 14:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final War's Tales of Honour 

message: What's the source for this "Eye-witness accounts of Hess' landing"? Lupo 07:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Landing 

message: I reinserted the information on him because it is from a recognized academic source that conforms to Wikpedia policy. Karl Schalike 19:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not a recognized academic source, it is dismissed by serious historians because the inference it draws in relation to AH is wholly unsupported by the documented record. Wyss 20:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rudolf Hess's sexuality

message: Karl Schalike is attempting to insert wholly unsupported "tabloid" type material into Adolf Hitler, Eva Braun, August Kubizek and Rudolf Hess. This includes categorizing AH as homosexual. The sources he cites are not based on verifiable documentation and are not recognized by historians. In one or two cases I have reverted this material as straight vandalism - disinformation.
I am adhering to my scholastic principles and believe I am editing within WP written policy. Some admins will agree with me but others may not. A request on my talk page (User_talk:Wyss) from an admin will be sufficient to stop me from reverting this material as vandalism. I will respect any such request and if it is received, following WP policy I will then take this issue to the RfC level instead. Thanks. Wyss 20:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: My reverts

message: Could someone please provide a reference for the quotation from Hess and the one from Churchill? Thanks. Camillus (talk) 22:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Wyss. I think the article should be edited to show where the quotations come from, as is normal in WP articles. As you provided the citations, could you edit the article to give the references? Camillus (talk) 01:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Wyss 02:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation request

message: It fair to say that the 'Hess' double' theory detailed in Hugh Thomas' book has been satisfactorily and totally discredited by now. So much so that Thomas has moved on to pastures new (though just as  lucrative) claiming it was a double of Himmler that comitted suicide in custody in 1945. Harryurz 17:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Doppelganger theory''' 

message: The first line of "Trial and Life Imprisonment" ("Hess was detained by the British for the duration of the war, then was a defendant at the Nuremberg Trials for crimes against peace and given a life sentence.") is over simplified and incorrect as a result. Hess was of course a defendent against all four counts (I-IV) and found guilty of two (I&II). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials#The_main_trial . Plus as the war had already started when he was captured he wasn't detained for the duration of it. I've edited it to something more correctly informative. ## I  wrote this not looged in so I've now logged in and come back to sign it... PhilipPage 22:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Economical with the actuality''

message: From the article: "Hess had attempted suicide at least twice before, in 1941 at Mytchett Place by flinging himself from a balcony, and in 1977 by cutting his wrists with a table knife. He was buried in Wunsiedel, and Spandau was subsequently demolished to prevent its becoming a shrine." 
However, Albert Speer writes, 1959-11-27, in his diary from Spandau (translated from my copy in Swedish): "This morning I managed to see Hess. He was laying on the bed with a thick bandage around his wrist. When I came he looked up tiredly with a wax-yellow face. Yet, he seemed like a child who had managed a surprise. Almost excited he began to tell: 'When you were in the garden yesterday and there was no guard nearby I broke my glasses quickly and cut an artery with a shard. For three hours no one noticed anything', he continued almost happily, 'I lay in the bed and was to bleed to death and it was quite nice. Then I would forever be rid of my pains. I had already become all feeble and comfortable. But then I suddenly heard a noice that seemed to come from far away, it was this disastrous man, the soviet supreme doctor on his round. He saw me lay here and immediately sew together the cut'"
I figured someone might have an opinion on this, hence why I didn't add it immediately. Feel free to do so yourselves if there are no objections from anyone. --Ojan 16:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suicide attempts 

message: I just added a thumb for Rudolf Hess's picture, I thought it might be good to have some consistency because the Hermann Goring article also has a thumb - I didn't realise K-UNIT had taken away the thumb. So should the thumb be there or not? Typhoonchaser 02:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thumb or no thumb?

message: This whole section is an appalling mess, a collection of half-baked arguments and ill-thoughout assumptions.  It is speculative in the extreme and simply deserves no place in an article on the life of Rudolph Hess.  Anyone who knows anything about military planning and logistics will understand that complex timetables are not to to be altered by sudden small events.  The suggestion that Hess' flight to Scotland somehow stopped a Soviet invasion of western Europe totters on the verge of intellectual lunacy.  
White Guard 23:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: White Guard is using the word "meretricious" with its standard modern usage - superficially attractive. I've never heard anyone use it to refer to a prostitute ("That woman on the street corner looks a bit meretricious to me"). Anyway, ther fact is that this whole section has almost nothing to do with Hess, nor is any reason given why Hess's flight would have stopped these supposed Russian plans. Analogies with butterfulies and hurricanes are not just metetricious, they are nonsensical. The point is that the effect of the butterfly cannot be measured, but when added tio a vast number of other variables may be one determinent of a storm. The argument - or rather the unargued assertion - here is that Hess's flight can be specifically identified as the cause of Stalin's alleged decision to stand down. This would require some rational explanation. We are not talking about tiny events having unforseen knock-on effects. Even if this argumernt were notable it would not require an entire section unless it were full of specific detail about the role of Hess's flight. But as it is Hess is barely mentioned. Paul B 09:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barbarossa 

message: I've now had a chance to look into this question a little more deeply, and am now in a position to report what I have found.
On 5 May 1941 Stalin and Zhadanov attended an assembly of army officers in the Great Kremlin Palace.  Stalin gave a speech, at he conclusion of which he posed a general question about the German army, asking if it was unbeatable.  There are no invincible armies in the world, Stalin continued, and if "Molotov...can delay the start of the war for two or three months, this'll be our good fortune."  At the conclusion of the ensuing dinner he proposed a toast "Long live the dynamic offensive poloicy of the Soviet State!"  
That's it.  But on the basis of this-and other very thin evidence-Victor Suvorov publised a paper in June 1985, arguing that Stalin was about to attack Hitler because he ordered a partial mobilisation and because Zukhov produced a plan for offensive depoloyments.  This whole thesis has been completely discredited.  The actual view of the General Staff was that it would be necessary for the Red Army to withdraw deeper into Soviet territory.  General Vasilevsky suggested that airfields and infrastructure be moved as far east as the Volga.  Offensive war was only ever raised in broad ideological terms, as a morale booster.
There is another point to consider in this regard.  General officers will always work on offensive possibilities, usually for educational and illustrative purposes; this does not imply an intention to act.  Who knows what one might find if a state is torn up by the roots, and its secret archives opened up to general scrutiny?  I dare say there is even a US 'plan' somewhere, detailing dispositions and resources needed for offensive operations against Canada and Mexico!
Now what about Hess?  Stalin learned of his 'mission' on 10 May.  It did not lead him to 'cancel' non-existant invasion plans.  Instead he gave permission to his generals on 12 May to strengthen the western borders, and allowed the call-up of another 500,000 reservists; but he still remained terrified of antagonising Hitler.  He even refused to believe that Hitler knew of the reconnaissance flights over Soviet air-space, and on 24 May stopped all further defensive preparations.
The speculation about Hess and Soviet military plans in this page are thus nonsensical in every conceivable sense.  More than that, they have no bearing whatsoever on the life of Rudolph Hess, and thus needs to be removed.  It is, as I have said, crank history; I am sorry if this view offends; but it is, after all, no more than the simple truth.  If anyone wishes to know how detailed war preparations work in practice I suggest that they look German military logistics for the war against France in 1914.  There came a point of no return, beyond which even the Kaiser could not call a halt.
White Guard 00:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just finished reading the two volumes of Ian Kershaw's Hitler, and a 'counterbalancing' edit based on that book, would mean the removal of this section for it is nonsense. However, a compromise would be to largely trim the speculative section in this article, and put up a link to the Meltyukhov article for further reading. I agree with WG that most of the text in this section doesn't belong in an article about Rudolf Hess. Is this an acceptable agreement for you Will? We should work towards a solution... --Citral 13:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: You have an unfortunate way of expressing yourself.  The above contribution is quite fatuous. White Guard 23:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   The Suvorov Thesis-or Barbarrossa part II.