Talk:Chinese Democracy/Archive 1

message: I don't want to make the edit myself because I know wikipedia doesn't like people talking about themselves, however the blurb about the recent leaks having nobody coming forward needs to be fixed. My stunt with the offering of thousands of dollars and then leaking several songs is a legitimate piece of information that should be included in this article.Mistersaintlaurent 10:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Leaks

message: I've reverted the previous edit, because the "Use Your Illusion"-era refers to both UYI1 and UYI2, not just to UYI1, which is only half the era.SoothingR 09:07, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverted previous edit

message: Is this the longest Wikipedia article on an album yet-to-be released?
:I guess so, but the most albums that still have to be released don't take ten years to go through the production stage ;).—♦♦ SʘʘTHING(Я) 07:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Longest article? 

message: Under the "Sound" subheading, the article refers to Nine Inch Nails as synth-pop.  NIN is industrial rock, which sounds nothing like synth-pop. Is the new sound similar to NIN or synth-pop? Berserkeley 05:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NIN is synth-pop? 

message: It is quite likely that by the time the album is released the name of the album could be an actual fact rather than a political oxymoron. --mitrebox 03:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming 

message: Axl Rose and producers said there would probably be no warning when the album (CD)hits the shops. Although the producer gave a hint which has made people believe the 21st.
21st of wat month, has this been superseeded or is this new info?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.162.190 (talk) 08:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Press release 

message: I don't think Guns N' Roses started recording this album in 1994 because their original members Slash and Duff McKagan were still in the band at that time. They didn't leave the band until 1996. Read part of Chinese_Democracy#Production_and_collaboration. Screamin' Johnny 04:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't really matter what you "think" (no offense intended, but it's the truth). Wikipedia only wants information that is verifiable, so don't go changing dates to something you "think" is correct. You don't have all your info correct anyways - Duff didn't quit until August of 1997. And according to this article in the New York Times, Axl began recording in 1994.. Thanks Yankees76 07:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Supposedly, but as per WP:VERIFY the threshold for inclusion of material to Wikipedia is verifiablity. If you can find a reliable source that says all of this, then we're on to something. Until then the starting year of recording is 1994. Yankees76 05:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at the source for the date beside "This I Love" - it's a fan site that is loaded with speculation, and would certainly not pass as a reliable source by Wikipedia standards. Since the NY Times article has been quoted for other "facts" about this record (such as the $13 million dollar recording cost), I find it amusing that you're challenging a recording date that is pulled from the same article. --Yankees76 04:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm assuming you've read the article from the Times - it looks like the writer conducted extensive interviews with Tom Zutaut. I have not seen another reliable source (only fan sites, blogs and other less-than-reliable homemade websites) that says anything definitive - and when I've asked for something from some of the editors above, I only get "I don't beleive" and other personal opinion, which is mostly based on rumours. Remember, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true. --Yankees76 02:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Present a source which states recording started in 1997 and it can go in the article. (And I'm removing your personal attacks.) Funeral 19:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recording date 

message: I'm dropping Silkworms, because unless there is a link that is verifiable as Sanctuary or Geffen Records 100% then Silkworms is still off of the tracklisting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.61.4.60 (talk) 15:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Silkworms WON'T be on the album. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.89.165.170 (talk) 21:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silkworms 

message: I think Chinese Democracy with the D capitalized should redirect to the album instead of the Chinese democracy movement because when a second word is capitalized it always means that it's a title of something so it's more likely that when someone searches for Chinese Democracy that they're looking for the album article. Chinese democracy should still redirect to the Chinese democracy movement though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Megadeth186 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese Democracy should redirect to the album 

message: I know there are several torrent sites that have albums labeled "Chinese Democracy - Guns N' Roses" and they have the same track listing.  I'm not going to download it but has anyone else? Real? thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.237.195.219 (talk) 09:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this leaked?? 

message: Ron Thal didn't say the mixing was completed on April 2nd. He was misquoted by a magazine.
Here is a link to the interview if anyone would like to hear what he really said. http://maximumthreshold.podomatic.com/ or you can listen to the other interviews at http://maximumthreshold.net also on the Maximum Threshold website you can post in the http://maximumthreshold.net/forum forum about Bumblefoot in the "interviews" section. Here is the link to the show, it will automatically download for you; http://maximumthreshold.podomatic.com/enclosure/2007-04-02T06_24_53-07_00.mp3 .  Please go there and report your comments. You will have to register on the site, but it only takes a minute and is very fast, no need to worry about recieving an email from the site.
Bumblefoot did an excellent job of covering the tour and what he expected and discussed the recording process between he and Axl. He stated that he has laid down over 100 solo tracks for the record and it is almost finished being mix.  He also said that he has been working on bringing the "sleeziness" back to the music the way the "Appetite for Destruction" record sounded. He also stated that he would do solos and call Axl and have him listen to them.  That is interesting, especially at a long distance. --Domonic Rini 11:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bumblefoot interview

message: They've been saying it's coming for years, but until it actually comes it really ought to say "if released," not "when released." In the sidebar, the release year ought to say "Unreleased," not "2007," or "2006" as it said last year or "2005" as it said the year before. Yes, we want it to come, but until/if it does, there is no reliability that it will, and as time stretches on the credibility of those making it diminishes to non-existence. Hoshq 15:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Retailers genereally fail to meet Wikipedia reliable source criteria anyways. Yankees76 19:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, they said it was going to be out on the 6th of March... - Brooza 23:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The letter originally offered a release date of Mar. 6, but then they changed it. Really, what's so hard with understanding the idea that it's "unreleased"? That's the only real fact we have. Hoshq 15:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If you look at many other articles that are of films / books / CDs that are to be released in the future, they have the year as the release. Maurauth 17:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Meh I suppose that's an okay third option: when released and to be announced. Maurauth 11:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You're reverting it to 'if released' and 'unreleased'. When released and TBA would probably be a better middle-ground solution. (No need to insult me either, I thought you gave up on that last time after vandalising my user page). Maurauth 12:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think you'll find you're wrong there, but it's nothing to do with the discussion, so stop talking about it. Maurauth (...)
No i won't stop, and you are wrong; you're just an ignorant vandal. Here,, i changed "unreleased" to "TBA". Here,, i changed "If released" to "when released". In the future, when you try to start an argument at least know what you are arguing about. If you look above, you'll see that you agreed that my edits are correct. End of discussion. Bucketheader 15:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You're the ignorant vandal, insulting me on my talk page, and writing things on my userpage, also following me from article to article reverting my edits. You have at least once reverted one of my edits, and then it was left as if released. Now, the discussion is over, if you want to talk about it use your talk page. Stop wasting the space on this page. Maurauth (...) 15:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  It really ought to say "if released" 

message: Why are these two songs in the table "Confirmed for Chinese Democracy"? The source is "Set List Picture" but that's not a source for them being on the album, just that they were options for the North American tour. Rocket Queen is on that setlist but that's not confirmed for Chinese Democracy. Also, "If The World" probably isn't the songs full title, "Welcome to the Jungle" is just called "Jungle" on the setlist, If The World is probably just an abbreviation of the songs full title. If The World & Prostitute  should be in the confirmed titles table. Bucketheader 19:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Much of that table is original research - I've tagged it as such so that other editors can look for sources. Yankees76 19:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Good stuff, those songs are pretty much common knowledge as being on the ablum. It's some of the other songs listed that don't have sources. Yankees76 20:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it. --Yankees76 20:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There must be articles where industry writers quote Bach. Yankees76 23:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think so, the site looks alot like Pitchforkmedia. See what others think too - after all Wikipedia is a consensus right? Yankees76 19:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "If The World" & "Prostitute"

message: added the following unsourced statement to the article(diff). I removed it and left a message on his talk page. If you can find a source, please add it.
On May 28, 2007, Guns n' Roses manager Alan Niven had announced in a press release to the disapointment of many fans that Chineese Democracy would never be released. Mr. Niven was quoted as saying:
"Let me first start off by thanking the fans for all of their support throughout the years. Without the love and support of Guns fans, nothing would have been possible. Secondly, I would like to thank Guns n' Roses for giving us two decades of legendary music. Axl Rose's vision, dedication, and leadership have taken the Guns from an obscure band out of L.A. to the one of the greatest rock bands in history. It is with great sadness that I announce that the Chineese Democracy project has been cancelled, and the album will not be released. Axl and the gang have put 15 years of blood, sweat, and tears into this project; to put it bluntly, they worked their asses off. However, despite all of the hard work, and the tremendous talent of Axl Rose, the band has come to the decision that the album will not be released. The decision to not release the album was not one that was made lightly. During the final editing of the album, it was realised that Chinese Democracy could not match the creative and musical qualiy of Appetite For Destruction and the Use Your Illusion albums. It is one of the most difficult things in the world for an artist to admit defeat, and I give Axl all of the credit in the world for having the guts to take action rather then sit idly by and let an album be released that is anything but perfect. Axl has made it clear to myself, to the rest of the band, and now to the rest of the world that nothing is more important then preserving the legacy of Guns n' Roses. Guns fans have come to expect, and deserve nothing less then the very best. Be advised that Guns n' Roses are comitted to completing the Chinese Democracy world tour, and none of the dates will be affected by this announcement. Once again, I apologize for this sad news. I truly believe that the fans will understand that this was done with their best interest at heart. Thank you."
:: –Sebi ~ 07:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, there is a quite a lot of unsourced rubbish being added to the article. I can't really revert it much, or risk WP:3RR, but if others could help by removing the unsourced content and contacting the users on their talk pages as to why it was removed. Thank you, –Sebi ~ 08:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can tell, you don't have to look much further than the GnR page... "The band fired their manager, Alan Niven, in May 1991, replacing him with Doug Goldstein." First rule of a good hoax; research. -- Xinit 09:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement by Alan Niven 

message: I think it is wrong that it is described as the "long overdue" album because technically the only release date the band has ever given out was TENTATIVE and was march of 2007 which means it is not that long overdue. Just because the album has been in production for 13 years doesnt mean that it is overdue because Axl has only admitted to the album existing. All the other release dates were unofficial and were given out by others who did not have Axls consent. It should read "Chinese Democracy is the long awaited..." not "long overdue" for the reasons listed above.
The album was originally scheduled for, or before, 31 December 1999; just because the only public "release date" issued was the tentative date of March 6 doesn't mean that was the band's only targeted release date. Bucketheader 22:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening paragraph

message: Kitty & the Kowalskis released their own Chinese Democracy album in 2006, why isn't that mentioned under 'Title conflicts'? Doofuz 01:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Chinese Democracy by Kitty & the Kowalskis? 

message: Why would adding this be considered "vanadalism"?  There are no 'valid' sources indicating what will for sure be on or not on, let alone any of these sources cited in the article.  Until other valid sources are included for the other songs, removing CITR would violate wikipedia's editing codes and not to mention fair contibution rules relating to not taking one contributors 'opinions' as valid and factual over anothers.
:Firstly, adding CITR would violate wikipedia's guidelines - it's never been confirmed for the album.
: Source for "The Blues", "There was a Time", "Better". 
:If I remember correctly, Axl confirmed "I.R.S." will be on the album during his interview with Eddie Trunk in May 2006.
:Source for "Sorry". 
:Now show me a source to show "Catcher in the Rye" will be on the album. Funeral 00:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How are the citations questionable? Axl Rose said his favourite songs on the album are "The Blues", "There was a Time" and "Better" in an interview - do you think that's questionable? Sebastian Bach is one of Rose's closest friends and has toured with the band, he's confirmed numerous times that "Sorry" will be on the album - do you find that questionable too? Funeral 22:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catcher in the Rye 

message: Please note that some of the sources listed in the article do not qualify as reliable sources by Wikipedia standards. Sources that link to message boards like http://chinesedemocracy.com/index.php/topic,32541.0.html and http://www.gnrdaily.com/news_detail.asp?id=565 do not qualify as "Reliable publications with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight" as is outlined in Wikipedia's content guideline WP:RS. For now I've simply tagged the References, but will, over the next while begin removing non-compliant "sources". --Yankees76 22:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the chinesedemocracy.com reference for now; when the magazine Bach spoke to publishes the interview on their website, I'll re-add it with a proper reference. Funeral 22:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References