Talk:Primary education

message: Despite the length of this article, many important sections and contents expected from any Wikipedia article are simply missing, such as:
* History of primary education and the nature of primary education in different eras and civilizations
* Need and importance, effect on children's development, economic impact
* Different approaches, subjects/skill typically taught in primary school
* Percentage of children without access to primary education etc.
This article is little more than an indiscriminate list of how old one has to be to go to which class in which country. Apparently everyone who noticed their country to be missing in the list felt the need to be "represented". Instead of giving an encyclopedic view of the topic, it is merely a collection of random very specific information. I have visited this page multiple times and it has gotten worse with time. 
Geeteshgadkari (talk) 17:57, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Clean-up Required

message: why "K12"? what does it stand for?
"kindergarten through twelfth grade"
----
The Elementary school section there seems a bit odd - I can't quite tell whether it's basically covering similar ground to the rest of the article, and should be integrated more smoothly; or whether it is something different but the distinction isn't clear enough.  It looks to have been added from a stub somewhere, and subsequently ignored.  I'd try and fix it, but not being American I genuinely don't know what it's talking about.  I'm assuming the system described is that of the USA, although that is currently unclear. Anyone care to lend a hand? - IMSoP 00:02, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Old discussion

message: What's grade school? --Abdull 13:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grade school 

message: Are these really so important and ubiquitous that they need to be linked from here?  Why not link blackboards, calculators and pencils too?  Rojomoke 15:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuisinaire Rods 

message: Besides the overall shortness of the article, I noticed that it never touched on tax dollars paying for public schools.  The blatant disobedience of the U.S. Constitution in modern American society today makes this subject a perfect example.  The U.S. Constitution specifically states that no form or branch of government of the U.S. has any right to be involved in education.  Being a Republican, I take a tall stand on this subject, as it is completely ignoring the Constitution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.54.65.226 (talk) 19:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the Constitution? 

message: The topic of the article can serve as a reasonable marker for where it needs to go, and for many of the concerns voiced above: Primary education is the meta-level topic, while the component parts of primary education, i.e. elementary schools (US & Canada), primary schools (UK, Australia), etcetera, can - and should - each have their own articles. Rather than be facetious or belittling, let's refocus our energy on creating articles that are worthy of their topics. Oh, and one sign of worthiness is attributable-ness. This article, and any developed from it, should be attributable. - Freechild 20:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed solution

message: I deleted the definition of grammar school for the secondary school.  It makes no sense to include it.  I'm sure the article for grammar school already includes this.  This is the elementary school article which should only reflect the elementary part.  
I understand that elementary schools are not as common in other countries which primary schools are preferred which I left in the article.  I just don't like it when it says elementary school or primary school in the introduction.  We should only be talking about elementary school since that's the article.  And then later in the article we should say exceptions to the elementary school.  
The division between elementary and high school is somewhat arbitrary...that just means the same as the transition...i don't understand why that was changed if it means the same.
 
Any comments about my change would be greatly appreciated. (MrsMacMan 17:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have to remember that Wikipedia is an international encyclopaedia not an American encylopaedia. Most of the terminology you've used is completely incomprehensible to anyone outside the US (eg, grades, grade schools, junior high school, etc). Kindergartens mean different things in different countries and in many countries are part of the pre-school system and have nothing to do with primary/elementary school at all. You cannot have a definition for one country and then write the article to make it appear that it covers the use of the words in the rest of the world. High school is also mainly a US term. Other countries would say secondary school or secondary education. The Grammar school page does already provide an explanation of the different uses of the word in different countries so it's probably not necessary to mention anything about secondary schools here. If you want to keep the article in its present form then it needs to be retitled Elementary school (US). If not then the article needs to be rewritten as I suggested with different sections explaining the use in different countries. I'm not sure how many other countries use the words elementary school. If it is only America you must make it clear that the article reflects American usage only. Dahliarose 19:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the previous version was a good explanation of the wide range of usages. There was much more deleted than stated above. The qualification of "I just don't like it" is really not sufficient to warrant such a massive change. I'm reverting back to the previous version pending further discussion of reasons that the introduction should not be as inclusive as possible. Nposs 19:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elementary schools are becoming quite popular in other countries.  For example, Japan.  There's a picture of it on the article.  How can you say that it is only for the US when clearly there is an elementary school in Japan? (MrsMacMan 20:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Japanese will have their own word for such a school which would be translated as elementary school or primary school depending on which country you live in.  You have not answered any of the points raised above. Your version of the article is completely incomprehensible to anyone outside the US. Dahliarose 20:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are making this up...you say elementary school is strictly only for the US and that's not even true.  I visited other countries and they call it an elementary school.  So it's not just for the US.  You still didn't answer my question.  Of course in Japan, they will have a Japanese word..but when it's translated...it would have to be the right word in English.  I still don't see your point.  (MrsMacMan 03:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your description of elementary schools describes the situation in America. You don't seem to be able to understand that all countries have different education systems. Elementary school will have a different meaning in different countries. Look at the page for Secondary school as an example. There are major differences in British English and American English and an international encylopaedia has to accept both versions and cannot use exclusively American English and American definitions. I don't understand which question hasn't been answered. You still haven't answered any of the points made above. If you wish to make changes to a long-standing article against the wishes of other editors you must provide references to prove your points. Dahliarose 07:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: This article was in fact previously a merger of primary and elementary education. Mrs MacMan was the one who thought it best to have two articles. Two separate articles are quite possibly justified, but the different meanings in different countries must be made clear. My Microsoft Encarta dictionary provides the following definitions of Elementary School - 1. US school for early education: in the United States, a school that provides the first four to eight years of basic education.  2. former type of school: a school of a type no longer in existence that was attended by children from the age of 5 until they left at 14. Elementary school was in fact the old name given to schools in the UK in Victorian times, which is presumably how the American usage of the word came into being. Dahliarose 08:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now done some further exploration and I've been able to expand the article by incorporating a section explaining the usage of the term in the UK. I've removed all references to grammar schools and grade schools from the introduction to the US section. As far as I'm aware these terms are only used in this way in the US and it is confusing to have them in the intro. The US section still needs a lot of work. The grades need to be explained - age eqivalents might help. If Mrs MacMan wishes to make further changes perhaps she could focus on the US section and back up her statements with references. Dahliarose 11:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I disagree. 

message: Of course grammar school has two different definitions...In America we have a dictionary, do you think it just has US-centric? no..it provides definitions for all over...that's what a dictionary is.  so in our dictionary grammar school means elementary school and a private secondary school...
In Japan they have elementary schools...of course they will call it differently because they have a different language than America. How do you say dog in Japanese? A dog in Japanese is the exact same meaning as in America.  You can't say that they will be different.  So it's like elementary school.  The meaning in Japan would be the same as in America.  
It all makes sense.  (MrsMacMan 13:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We are talking about what an elementary school is called in other countries. The issue is that in other parts of the world that speak English, elementary, primary, and grammar are all used to describe the same thing. It is worth mentioning this in the introduction because this is not the "American" wikipedia, but simply the "English" Wikipedia. Nposs 15:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And in the "English" Wikipedia, you need to keep everything neutral not the UK- and euro-centric terms.  It's not just the US that calls it elementary school.  In Japan they call it an elementary school.  There's even an image on the article.  How can you say that there aren't elementary schools in Japan? (MrsMacMan 15:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We are already keeping everything neutral by using both the English and American equivalents (eg high school/secondary school and primary education/elementary education). You don't seem to understand that there are sometimes major differences between American English and British English. We have to include both meanings to make everything clear for readers from all countries. Japanese-American dictionaries and Japanese-English dictionaries will translate words in different ways according to local usage. Americans have sidewalks; the English have pavements, etc. Dog has the same meaning in both British English and American English. As I think we have proved here elementary school has a variety of meanings depending on where in the world you live and at what time. There will be no direct English-language equivalent of the name for the equivalent Japanese school. The American translation from the Japanese is elementary school and the English translation is primary school. Dahliarose 15:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  let me clarify it again... 

message: The move was clearly not uncontroversial, and was made arbitrarily.  I have returned the article to its original title (per WP:MOS), and move protected it to allow this to be discussed.  Please do so here. Neil ╦ 16:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is a distinct need for two separate articles. Apart from the American use of elementary school the term also has a historical meaning in the UK. The paragraph which I spent some time preparing to explain this historical usage has now been lost with this present move and doesn't belong in an article on primary schools. It was not the move which was controversial but the re-naming of the previous primary school article to elementary school and the change of the content to focus purely on the US. I've spent a long time sorting out the mess created by Mrs MacMan. My most recent edits to both these articles have now I believe addressed these problems and the new articles are much improved. There is a precedent as there are already separate pages for High school and Secondary school to explain the usages in different countries.Dahliarose 17:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think two articles would be acceptable.  Do you have copies of the two? Neil ╦ 17:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the best version of the Elementary school article which was I believe fairly neutral and had resolved all the issues:
.
I can't seem to access the newly created Primary School article now. Presumably it will still be stored somewhere on the servers and will reappear once the redirects have been removed. It was only quite short and could be redone if necessary. Primary school seems to have a different meaning in the US. I think we really need the two separate pages to make sure that both terms are properly explained. However, just to complicate matters for you Mrs Mac has just created a new article for Elementary school! I hope you can sort out the mess! Dahliarose 17:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page title 

message: That is so unfair! This article is completely not neutral.  Why does the US and other countries have to accommodate for the United Kingdom? UK wants everything their way.  They hate America that's why they have a completely different term.  (MrsMacMan 17:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why should the rest of the world accomodate the US? This  sort of issue has come up thousands of times before, and so it is determined by guideline ... WP:MOS#National_varieties_of_English says "If an article has evolved using predominantly one variety, the whole article should conform to that variety, unless there are strong reasons for changing it". Neil ╦ 17:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well then I think that elementary school should have an article as well.  There are other countries that use elementary schools too.  (MrsMacMan 17:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly think that elementary school should have it's own article...it even says that UK was formerly an elementary school.  Wouldn't it make sense to place that in the elementary school article? (MrsMacMan 19:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  angry... 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support - as nominator.  After the turmoil of recent days I can't help but feel that this article might be better re-worded to suit the namespace Primary education and be located there. The phrase would be slightly more inclusive of elementary & other labels for first-level education. There are several other reasons for my suggestion:
*It would fit better in the :Category:Educational_stages structure between Preschool education and Secondary education
*It would fit the broader sense of the article which refers to several types of primary education
*It would align with common international use, for example the terminology used by UNESCO ()
*It would align with the terminology currently used in the Education article.
*It would allow other nations' sections to be introduced/developed to indicate how primary education is provided within that country.
Folk may also feel that a separate 'Primary school' entry need still be maintained, although I remain unconvinced about that myself at this stage. 
Any thoughts? Tafkam 21:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are currently separate entries for other "xxxx school" and "xxxx education" topics. Just pointing this out; I have no opinion on the matter, really. --- RockMFR 02:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Any additional comments: 
Okay - I'm happy with the suggestion that the two articles should be separate, but I would argue that the bulk of the content on this page would belong on the primary ed article with mostly new info for primary school. Just needs someone to write them, I guess? Tafkam 21:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm happy to sort it out. I agree that the bulk of the content should go on the primary education page (which in fact was what this page was called until all the chaos started). I'd like to create separate pages for primary school and elementary school. I now have some further historical UK historical information to add to an elementary school page. I'm not sure what the procedure is now. Can all the blocks be removed so it can be sorted? As this page was originally called primary education perhaps it might be best to rename the page primary education and start a new page called primary school to preserve this existing talk page on the primary education page.Dahliarose 22:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now done a draft of three separate articles for primary education, elementary school and primary school which can be found in my sandbox User:Dahliarose/Sandbox. The references don't work properly while everything is on one page but if the material is cut and pasted onto three separate pages then they should work in the normal way. There is still plenty of room for expansion. These are all important subjects. What is the procedure? Does an admin now have to approve the changes and all the many related redirects or should I go ahead and make the changes? Dahliarose 11:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've no idea myself, but prefer all your suggested edits to my blunt suggestion of a move. Presumably someone more knowledgeable will arrive soon and abandon the move details. Or can I do that, being the original proposer? Might have to have a look. Tafkam 19:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what the procedure is. Mrs M has already gone ahead and created an elementary school article. I've now sorted out her new elementary school page and incorporated my existing copy to make it more neutral. I'm not sure where we stand with all the redirects. Were they not blocked? Does an admin have to approve the moves? It's all somewhat complicated as this page was originally called primary education until Mrs M's moves and I'm not sure what the best solution is as far as retaining the talk pages, etc. Dahliarose 20:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And also primary school is only for the first three or four grades of elementary school in the United States.  Make sure in the future you add that.  (MrsMacMan 20:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Might be worth putting one of those helpme things on your userpage? Tafkam 20:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need an administrator here...I feel so bad for causing such pain to both of you.  I'm really sorry.  (MrsMacMan 20:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: who's going to put the helpme on their userpage? should i do it? or you? (MrsMacMan 20:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Might be best if dahliarose does it as she has the copy for the new articles. Would you mind doing that, dahliarose? Tafkam 21:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  I was just about to post a help note on my talk page to get some help to get the new articles in place when I discovered that we were back to square one again. I have left some comments on Banno's talk page. I hope we can get this sorted once and for all. I thought we already had reached a consensus to have the three separate articles as per my proposal. If time had been taken to read the proposed new articles it would be quite apparent that there is no problem with duplication. A lot of content on this page will not be appear once the new article is in position. Dahliarose 22:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: I've now updated this page so that it focuses specifically on primary education. I hope that people from other countries will be able to expand the article and fill in the various country sections. I've also created new pages for Elementary school and Primary school. Now that Mrs MacMan aka User:Lanna9013 has been identified as a Sockpuppet and has been blocked from editing, it has been possible to remove the duplicated content from the elementary school page which was previously only there to stop her constantly reverting and redirecting everything. I hope I've demonstrated that there is a clear need for an article on elementary schools. I don't want to create separate articles for US and UK elementary schools at present but if the content does get expanded further then this could be a possibility. I agree that we don't want a forest of stubs. I've incorporated Rosmoran's helpful explanations of the American system in the Primary school article. The article is really only a stub at the moment but I think it is important to have the differing meanings clearly defined on a separate page. The article could potentially be expanded with international equivalents along the lines of the existing Secondary school article. If we had these articles in place before Mrs MacMan came along we wouldn't have had all this mess to sort out as there would have been no dispute over the various meanings. Dahliarose 14:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: All sorted

message: It would be interesting to have maps showing 1.) where primary education is compulsory, and 2.) where primary eduction is available for free from the government. -- Beland (talk) 17:52, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps - compulsory, free 

message: "In most countries, it is compulsory for children to receive primary education, though in many jurisdictions it is permissible for Teehee" - I'd fix it myself but I can't find a version before that - looks like it's been there a while. Jonathan Hall (talk) 01:52, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism in lead 

message: The lists of the ages of students in each grade for each country seems to take up a lot of room relative to their usefulness, IMHO.  Can they be replaced by age ranges, (say start to end of education), and let the readers fill in the middle?
It seems like there should be plenty more to say about this topic; I'll try to find a wikiproject to help, and give it an appropriate expert tag.
--Caduon (talk) 07:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a separate article on Educational stage. The information about all the age ranges really needs to go in there instead. A lot of the ages now included in this article refer to secondary education and not primary education. I think it was also suggested somewhere that primary education should be made into a separate article. I think this would make sense. The article could then be linked from this article and the articles for Primary school and Elementary school. At present editors keep adding the country by country information to all three articles depending on which one they find first and which term they use in their particular country. Dahliarose (talk) 11:07, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists/content 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 8 external links on Primary education. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:15, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is need to focus on education- not the organisations that provide it. I have started, and placed some of the material in a Primary education/sandbox while we work on it. --ClemRutter (talk) 00:25, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major cleanup started 

message: Dropped waivers.Posted from Abel Obile Omale as developer director staff incharge of educations,travels,employments, cultists in terrorisms,hospitals, elections & others in all countries.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 102.88.45.251 (talk) 08:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dropped waivers.