Talk:William Shakespeare/Archive 4

message: Just a query, but wasn't Shakespeare born and didn't he die on the same day years later? Thanks Walters1 22:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one knows his birthdate. Only his baptismal date. The same day thing is just something made up out of whole cloth. - Nunh-huh 23:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The only book I have with any major biographical info on Shakespeare points out that 
Shakespeare died on the 23rd (which is also the feast of Saint George, England's patron saint); this makes April 23rd so tempting a birthdate as to be suspicious. See Norrie Epstein's The Friendly Shakespeare.  — AnnaKucsma   (Talk to me!) 17:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth 

message: In the authorship speculation section, shouldn't a new paragraph start when it says "Christopher Marlowe" ? It seems to me like the two theories shouldn't be lumped together like that, plus it sounds abrupt. Coppelia 03:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Authorship section

message: I sincerely think the article should be more candid in its opening lines. At least a qualification on the "the world's preeminent dramatist" is in order. Especially so since citations given for this assertion are not particularly well suited to back up this claim.
Indeed the citations given are more careful in this assertion. I would suggest you either use a phrase like "by some as the world's most.." or "the English speaking world's most preeminent dramatist". Otherwise it tends to give an impression of "the best dramatist", which I think is not only very simplified, but also somewhat unworthy of an otherwise very good article.
::As has been stated before on this talk page, you would be correct if these statements were being applied to any other writer and dramatist. However, that is the actual critical consensus on Shakespeare. And you are not correct that the citations are more careful in this assertion. The Britannica citation specifically states that he is "considered by many to be the greatest dramatist of all time." The Columbia cite states "He is widely considered the greatest playwright who ever lived." MSN Encarta says "recognized in much of the world as the greatest of all dramatists."
::All of those cites support this article's statement that he is widely regarded (notice we also use that term) "as the world's preeminent dramatist." How can you state that they don't back that up (we even gave three citations to back up the statement)? However, all of this is, to one degree, irrelevant. The overwhelming consensus on this page has been to keep this exact statement. Since this statement is supported both by the references and by consensus, it should stay as it is.--Alabamaboy 14:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In regard to the open sentences 

message: Is the evidence for the "Shall I Die" poem not consistant enough to warrant mention on Shakespeare's article? Since it's allegedly the most recent work of Shakespeare discovered in hundreds of years, it might be worth mentioning. Granted, the arguments of wheather it's an actual Shakespeare work is debated, but it appears significant enough that a television show I'm watching right now is covering the issue the story. - Throw 10:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Shall I Die" poem

message: Shouldn't this page be better protected? The amount of vandalism is ridiculous! Smatprt 19:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the page is still protected.--Alabamaboy 23:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Protect this page please!

message: I would appreciate if anyone can correct my addition of the Influences and influences section in the infobox.
Exiledone 21:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks ok to me, unless you wanted to sort them. What about Petrarch? Was Holinshed an influence or a source? --Old Moonraker 21:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Influences and Influenced

message: I was alarmed to read this in the peer review: "Watch the long sentences. Most American's read at a 6th grade level, your writing style is at the 12th grade level." I hope this is not the consensus. 211.28.215.68 16:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a long discussion about this here. No consensus, though! --Old Moonraker 16:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case, I don't find the requisite reading level too high. I am not a specialist and I don't find any of the content difficult. The prose can be made more elegant, but simplifying it is tantamount to dumbing it down. Long sentences are not difficult as long as they are warranted and well-structured. RedRabbit1983 15:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and I'd discount that statement about reading levels.--Alabamaboy 16:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe the reviewer confused this with the Simple English Wikipedia? Anrie 19:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can read Shakespeare this article is peanuts. Mandel 22:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer review

message: I've proposed a Shakespeare Wikiproject to deal with Shakespeare articles. Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Shakespeare I've considered that it might be better as a task force under Wikipedia:WikiProject Elizabethan theatre though I think a project could easily stand on its own.  Curtangel 03:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! Good work. RedRabbit1983 06:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Full support.Mandel 16:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Support and look forward to being involved.--Alabamaboy 14:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shakespeare Wikiproject

message: Carlos Fuentes raised an intriguing possibility in his book Myself With Others: Selected Essays (1988) noting that, "Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date, though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further stated that perhaps both were the same man. Cervantes's debts and battles and prisons were fictions that permitted him to disguise himself as Shakespeare and write his plays in England, while the comedian Will Shaksper, the man with a thousand faces, the Elizabethan Lon Chaney, wrote Don Quixote in Spain. This disparity between the real days and the fictitious date of a common death spared world enough and time for Cervantes's ghost to fly to London in time to die once more in Shakespeare's body. But perhaps they are not really the same person, since in the calendars in England and Spain have never been the same, in 1616 or in 1987." Out of all of the potential candidates, Cervantes' life spans that of Shakespeare's. Indeed, he is the only candidate to have died in the same year as Shakespeare. Miguel de Cervantes would have had the experience and the knowledge of Italy and other geographic areas that appear in Shakespeare's plays. Furthermore, the story of The Taming of the Shrew predates Shakespeare's play and originated in Spain. Likewise, the story of Romeo and Juliet originated in Italy, also predating Shakespeare's play. Cervantes' candidacy rests in large part on his knowledge and, equally so, on his extensive travels. One other intriguing piece of evidence, that may shed some light on the authorial connection between Cervantes and Shakespeare lies in the pages of Don Quixote itself. The name Cid Hamete Benengeli (that of the author or translator of the story according to Cervantes) can be translated as Lord Hamlet, of England. It is also worth noting, that one of Shakespeare's lost plays, Cardenio, was based upon the stories of Cervantes' great novel, Don Quixote. 
The Spanish word berenjena means eggplant. I realize this. The suggestion that has been made by certain scholars is that one can translate Benengeli as Ben (which would mean son) and engeli(which could mean England). Cid or Cide does in fact mean Lord. And Hamete is one letter away from the name Hamlet. I am simply putting forward what other scholars, in particular Francis Carr. Francis Carr is a proponent that Francis Bacon was the author of Shakespeare's plays, and that he also authored Cervantes' Don Quixote. My opinion is that Miguel de Cervantes took the pen-name William Shakespeare. I do not subscribe to Carr's belief that Bacon was both men. However, I direct you to the following char Carr compiled with textual similarities: http://www.sirbacon.org/links/carrtable1.html. The English translation of Don Quixote has many more textual similarities with Shakespeare's plays than either do with works written by Bacon. This does much to explain the substantial amount of gaps that appear in Carr's chart between Cervantes and Bacon and between Shakespeare and Bacon.
Carr's own assertion is that: "It is brought to our attention that the name of the" real author" of Don Quixote de La Mancha is Cid Hamet Benengeli, an Arab historian. This is completely fictitious, no author by that name ever existed. Not only does the author put forth this name as the real author but it's mentioned thirty-three times. Why should someone keep on repeating and repeating a name if he does not want you to take that name seriously? It's a very odd name, Cid Hamet Benengeli. Cid translates as Lord, Hamet - Hamlet, Benengeli--ben means son, engeli can mean of England. So we get Lord Hamlet, son of England--Francis Bacon." (http://www.sirbacon.org/carrinterview.htm) User: Lad2000
::Carlos Fuentes was speculating without any evidence. Until I see another scholar embrace this idea, I say leave it out. The most this theory deserves is a mention in Shakespearean authorship question, not here in the main article.--Alabamaboy 01:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always assumed that Hamete was version of the name Ahmed. "Ben Engeli" could be ibn something or of somewhere. Paul B 15:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Case for Cervantes 

message: There appears to be debate over the Authorship section. The current section (as seen in Smatprt's edits at ) is essentially the consensus version we've had for a number of months (with the exception of a statement that Smatprt inserted with the support of myself and other editors, which says that "it is well accepted in academic circles that Shakespeare's plays were written by William Shakespeare and not another author."). However, since two editors have questioned having this much info on the authorship debate, we should see if consensus exists to keep the section as is or change it. The change would be to Nunh-huh's version at .
Personally, I believe we should keep the original version. While I don't believe in these theories, they do have some academic support and should be mentioned here.--Alabamaboy 14:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I much prefer the shorter version. I admit that's partly due to an aversion to "alternative author" theories; I think too much space gives too much credibility to these ideas in what is the main Shakespeare article. But I also think that the details are covered in the existing alternative author article, which even has its own sub-articles on Oxford and Bacon. Paul B 15:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the shorter version also, in an article of this length. WP:NPOV requires that we don't give undue weight to fringe theories. All of this material is covered in considerable detail, just one click away. AndyJones 17:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There's no "academic support", which is why the section is so notably devoid of any citations evidencing it. You appear to have confused "self-deluded nut jobs" with "academics". The short version is the only one which does not privilege this fringe POV thorough undue emphasis, and therefore the only one consistent with our NPOV policy, and the only one which does not mislead the reader by suggesting that this is in any sense disputed by anyone they need take seriously.  - Nunh-huh 19:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: No, there's not academic support, and you have evinced no references to academic journals that might indicate that there is. This is not about "sides", it's about not misrepresenting facts by suggesting they are disputed by someone significant. They aren't, and it's wrong and misleading for our article to suggest they are. "Self-deluded nut jobs" is an apt description of those who initially "found" the "codes" that "prove" that Shakespeare "wasn't" the author, and an apology is neither necessary or forthcoming. - Nunh-huh 23:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: First we should discount Nunh-huh's behaviour, and therefore his opinion. Uhhhhh. No. that's not how things work. So if somebody came by here and said that only nutjobs believe Shakespeare really wrote his plays then we should discount his opinion just because he said something other people didn't think was polite? So one bad comment means nothing anybody says has any merit, and anyone agrees with him must also be ignored? Nonsense. And on top of that, just because he has strong opinions it doesn't mean the edits he is proposing end up slanting the article. He's not suggesting the article say that all those people are nutjobs, and nobody else is either.   DreamGuy 01:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It's probably right next to the section where it condones misrepresenting fellow editors' statements. - Nunh-huh 00:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S.S. Unless someone comes up with some names of those "number of reputable scholars", the NPOV page will have to come up with a better example. - Nunh-huh 00:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You're the only one here commenting on a fellow editor. - Nunh-huh 01:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe we should keep this discussion open for a few more days. At this point, though, consensus seems to be to go with the short version. I'm going to insert that version for now. If consensus changes, we can revert to the original version. Best, --Alabamaboy 01:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be hesitant to bring over someone's comments to this discussion without that editor doing it himself. The discussions on the two article's talk pages differ. This discussion is about whether or not to include more or less info on this subject in the main article. The other discussion is about NPOV and other concerns with the authorship article. --Alabamaboy 01:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That comment doesn't apply here anyway... How on earth can anyone be suggesting that having a whole big article on the topic, and apparently with other offshoot articles (unless those got redirected at some point), is "ignoring the opinions"? Ignoring them would be erasing the article completely and not mentioning at all. Ignoring them would be to have an article saying that they are nutjobs. Pointing out what they say, but included much-needed context that it is no way a widely accepted opinion by Shakespeare scholars is NOT ignoring them. Sheesh. DreamGuy 01:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wrad has already quite clearly stated (on this very page) that he favors the short version. Let's let him speak for himself instead of applying his comments on one subject to another entirely.  - Nunh-huh 01:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If you feel that strongly about it, we can leave the discussion open for a few more days. Is everyone ok with that? --Alabamaboy 01:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Nunh-huh is right: the Anti-Strafordian nonsense is given undue weight. The subject already has separate pages, and we shouldn't muddle the general reader with poorly supported conspiracies. RedRabbit1983 02:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone inclined to take the NYT story seriously needs to check out the thread "Are you now or have you ever been..." at Shaksper. AndyJones 20:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It shpuld be noted that the "Dr. Roger Strittmater" referred to in Smatprt's comment is not an established academic but an ideologically committed Oxfordian who signed up for a PhD with the express intention of proving that the so-called "Oxford's bible" was evidence of links to Shakespeare. The PhD consists of lists of verbal connections and commentaries. Its acceptance was quite controversial at the the time. Professor Daniel Wright is rather more important. The circumstances and content of the NYT questionnaire are so obscure that its findings are vitually unintelligable.Paul B 09:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It's a largely meaningless list, most of whom are not specialists in the field. Being an academic in 'Management Studies', 'Biology' or any other non-Elizabethan field of research has no relevance to expertise in Shakespeare studies, and some of these titles are clearly virtually meaningless. A "visiting assistant professor" is basically someone who does a few part time lectures now and again. What is a "clinical associate professor"? Clinical? It seems to be a job title used in Nursing  and yet this person is listed as a literature professional. Paul B 07:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I don't knw why he has the weird title of "Clinical associate professor" but he does appear to teach English, but is clearly a bit of an oddball judging by his webpages  Paul B 07:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: We have to accept that there is a hierarchy of experise here. The real experts are specialists in Elizabethan history and literature. Generic Eng Lit lecturers are of less worth as supporters, and well also have to take into account their positions in the scholarly hierarchy (job titles and status of institution). Excluding all the non-Eng Lit people, whose qualifications are irrelevant, we have a list of 11 names, one of which appears to be the same person mentioned twice (Dr. Joseph E Riehl, Ph.D.; Joe Riehl, Ph.D.). Of course in reality - if you include anyone who lectures anywhere ("community colleges" etc) and even part time lecturers - there must be hundreds of thousands of people in the English-speaking world who could be eligable for a list such as this. How many of these are specialists in the Elizabethan period? Patrick Buckridge appears, according to his CV to be a specialist in Australian literature . He appears to have published one essay of Marsden. Michael Delahoyde appears to be a professional maverick. Ren Drya works in a community college and does not appear to be Renaissance specialist, but rather a drama teacher. Warren T Hope is a part time lecturer at "The University of Sciences", which does not suggest a strong Eng Lit relevance. Raymond Thom Hunter has no affiliation, and I can find no evidence of any publications (that may just be because of the way the name is written). William Leahy is a genuine writer on Renaissance topics . His website says he is "very interested in projects dealing with Shakespeare and Authorship in some way", which does not make his position very clear. Joseph E Riehl appears to specialise in the 19th century writer Charles Lamb. So apart from Wright, there appears to be only one person on this list who can be said to be specialist in the area, and that is Leahy, whose own position remains unclear. Elsewhere he describes himself as an "agnostic". Paul B 11:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the debate will never end.  But more on the page itself.  My feeling is that this short version will inevitably re-swell in size after some time.  Give them some meat and satisfy them at least. Mandel 16:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you are not making sense. The portrait is a work of art innit? The arguments about the picture are purely art historical, but art historians are not experts on Shakespeare authorship. The points I am making about the picture are simply that art historians don't see anthing strange about it, not that they use it to prove Shakespeare was Shakespeare. Experts on Shakespeare and the law would be people who have published in peer reviewed journals on the subject, presumably they would specialise in Tudor/Jacobean law. Again, though, that's not in itself an authorship issue. Paul B 22:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: No, this conversation is taking place on the talk page of the article concerned, and on this page only. The only question to be addressed is whether the short or long version is to be preferred, and it seems the short one (the one inserted at least once by Alabamaboy, though later removed by Smatprt) is the one which most—indeed, nearly all—prefer. - Nunh-huh 17:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nunh-huh is correct. As I've said before, this discussion is only about whether the long or short section on authorship questions is included in this main article. This discussion is totally separate from the other discussions on other pages. I agree that sufficient time has passed for consensus on this issue, which is to go with the short version here.--Alabamaboy 23:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh dear, I thought we were there: Nunh-huh inserts a short, well-balanced and nicely readable version, seemingly in accord with the consensus. It didn't last the morning (sorry, I'm using UTC). Please don't start this all again! --Old Moonraker 08:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Your change restored links previously deleted. The place for detailed discussion about the popular "debate" about Shakespeare's authorship is in the subarticles, not here. - Nunh-huh 14:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus on authorship section 

message: As an aficionado of the immortal Bard, the Swan of Stratford-upon-Avon, I commend to all the commemoration of the 391st anniversary of the decease of the greatest dramatist of the English language! April 23, 1616-April 23, 2007--Drboisclair 15:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ya know, i'm quite sure he died and was born on the same day,April 23. Someone should change that.--69.114.152.243 23:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one knows when he was born. The article gives the date of his baptism. AndyJones 21:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  391st Anniversary 

message: Thanks for assuming bad faith in your edit summary, Smatprt. Are you really going to put up a separate fight to retain the ugly and illogical use of  "term" on each of the involved pages? After there was 100% support for my rewrite at Shakespearean authorship question,, I was hoping you'd have the grace to let it go when I inserted the same changes here.  May I ask what exactly it is you suspect me of? My changes at  Shakespearean authorship question were intended as neutral stylistic improvements; everybody else thought that's what they were; but you keep implying I have some evil agenda (and therefore keep reverting me). What is that agenda, exactly?  Can't we try to assume that we're all trying to improve William Shakespeare and it's subarticles?  Bishonen | talk 15:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it bothers me? Well, yeah. I'm kind of disappointed to encounter this kind of behaviour at a page like this. Try reading what you revert before going into automatic mode. Since you've violated the WP:3RR despite being warned on your own Talk, I expect you'll get some time off to reconsider your editing practices.  Bishonen | talk 15:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Your sarcasm is charming. I "avoid" the question because it's nothing to do with me. Why don't you check the history to see who actually removed the Oxfordian theory? Since you make such a point of it, I expect they'd tell you why, if asked directly and in person. Bishonen | talk 04:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Exactly what part of "don't revert five times" don't you understand? - Nunh-huh 18:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Bad assumption. There's no reason to discuss the merits of any particular "alternative" theory in this article. And once again, discussions on other articles have no bearing here. - Nunh-huh 04:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Do try to focus on improving the article rather than trying to score debating points. This article is not the place to discuss the merits of the various "authorship" theories, and you seem to be the only one who wants the "Oxfordian" link. And stop placing more than one link to the authorship manual in the article. It gets one link, not multiple links, per the manual of style. - Nunh-huh 06:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Try to be civil. God is not an elected position. The place to discuss the various "authorship" theories is in the article on them, which is linked to here. And false accusations and hyperbole about the "strength" of Looney should guide those who will assess your ability to weigh evidence in a neutral way. - Nunh-huh 23:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Smatprt, do you think you could retain a modicum of relevance to debates on actual pages in your responses. The pun is not and  -I think - never has been referred to on this page. It is referred to on the Authorship page, so don't add comments here about it here. And the alleged "POV deletions" I am supposed to have made here have nothing whatever to do with me. Your comment is rather rich since you have just deleted material on the Authorship page simply because it contradicts your POV. It is not, BTW, presumptuous. You know it because you have already been informed of the fact in the past. Paul B 14:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "What was cleverly inserted instead"

message: I think that they should be cleared of his works (except a few) and focus more on his life in this article.  Right now there are tons of links for his works, and only a few for his life.  Links to his works would do better on Shakespeare's complete works page. Wrad 02:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Nunh-huh is completely misquoting the MOS, saying it prohibits the same link appearing more than once in an article.  His recent edit is, in fact, against the MOS that recommends linking in opening paragraphs, as well as elsewhere in the article - just not in the same line or paragraph. Specifically:
"These links should be included where it is most likely that a reader would want to follow them elsewhere; for example, in article introductions, the beginnings of new sections, table cells, and image captions. Generally, where it is likely that a reader may wish to read about another topic, the reader should not have to hunt for a link elsewhere in the page.
and:
"A link for any single term is excessively repeated in the same article, as in the example of overlinking which follows: "Excessive" is more than once for the same term, in a line or a paragraph, because in this case one or more duplicate links will almost certainly then appear needlessly on the viewer's screen.
Misquoting the MOS to conduct continued pOV harrassment is surely unacceptable. Eventually some neutral editors are going to become aware of these antics. Smatprt 00:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't misquoted; rather, you have misinterpreted. The MOS doesn't mean all links need to be in the introduction: that's ridiculous. The place the reader is MOST LIKELY to look for a link to the authorship "question" is in the section devoted to that question, and not in the introduction. - Nunh-huh 01:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Fine, wait and see if others agree with your analogy. - Nunh-huh 02:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet you don't wait. - Nunh-huh 03:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Addressing the portion of your comments I can make sense of: Not before you make an edit. Before you revert one. Yes, you've been recruiting, and it doesn't alter the fact that you are attempting to falsely depict a fringe view as more mainstream than it is. And lighten up on the labeling. - Nunh-huh 04:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Labelling: Oxfordian, Stratfordian. Do as you wish, then, and you will see what progress you make. - Nunh-huh 05:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Internal links

message: The words "particulary in the Oxfordian theory" were deleted, eliminating Oxfords position as frontrunner among the anti-strats, a point that has been acknowledged on other pages, and in the last major consensus, for some time now.  I'd like to see where we stand on this, since it was never addressed in the original discussion. Can the editors of this page please explain this deletion and if there was consensus on this, please show where?Smatprt 05:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to add this, you should first find a citation for it in a reliable source. Agreement between Wikipedians at another article is not a reliable source. And then we will discuss where this "valuable" information belongs; I believe you will find that mostly everyone but you feels the authorship article is the place for it, not here. - Nunh-huh 05:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please explain the following edit

message: Shakespear is totall awsome in my eyes!  He writes the best best best plays in the world and he will always be the best ever!
That's a fact!
If you disigree don't even talk anymore!
O.K!
O.K!70.88.101.209 16:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Best Ever

message: The phrase, "...had a brief affair with a woman during a performance of Richard III"
perhaps should read, "had a brief affair with a woman during a production run of Richard III"--otherwise, he'd only have had time for a tryst, not an affair!—Preceding unsigned comment added by  69.243.32.188 (talk • contribs) 14:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Manningham's anecdote was indeed about a tryst and not an affair: WS was supposed to have impersonated the actor (Burbage, from memory) playing King Richard, after a woman from the audience had arranged to meet the player after the show. The story ends with WS quipping to Burbage "William the Conqueror came before Richard III!" as they met on the stairs. Too much detail, perhaps, for a short encyclopedia bio so I've just changed in line with the previous IP editor's suggestion.  --Old Moonraker 21:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Twas sex with a groupie. Call it an affair, a fling, a bang or whatever, Manningham doen't make it clear. The story's discussed in more detail in Sexuality of William Shakespeare. Paul B 22:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  minor edit for clarification 

message: I've once again removed the categorization, because there is no obvious connection between Shakespeare and the Rosicrucians. Categories should not be added to pages on which there is no information that would enlighten a reader as to why they are present. The category is sufficiently mysterious and, apparently, controversial, as to require prior discussion on the article's talk page before you should even consider re-adding it. - Nunh-huh 03:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lusitanian has recently added the following utterance to the introduction to the Rosicrucian article: "Also, it becomes clear that this holy Order initiated and shaped the whole Renaissance movement of the western world through the works and cooperation of evolved individuals in the fields of arts, literature, religion and science since the 14th century, under the auspice of those Compassionate Ones in charge of mankind's evolution." This is way beyond mainstream thought. Paul B 06:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shakespeare the Enlightened Rosicrucian 

message: It seems that Bob Bearman, Archivist at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, has "conclusively" disproved any connection with Shakespeare (which is disappointing, but there you go). His article Was William Shakespeare William Shakeshafte? Revisited appears in the Spring 2002 issue of Shakespeare Quarterly (Johns Hopkins University). This is a subscription-only product, so I can't read it, let alone cite it. Does anyone have access?
While we're in this paragraph: re "asseted nexus". "Asset nexus" (the ambassadorial connection) would be a neat way of describing the supposed introduction from Shakespeare's schoolmaster, Cottam, to his old master Hoghton. As far as I know, "asseted nexus" means something else. Is it a typo? Can anybody put me right?
*Thank you, Celithemis, for putting that right.
--Old Moonraker 21:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have online access, but not from here! I'll have to wait till tomorrow. What do you want, a summary? Paul B 23:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the offer: it's just that I am slightly in awe of the definitive and certain "and is now accepted wisdom" in relation to the sojourn as a schoolmaster in Lancashire. Bearman's conclusions seem to undermine this and might be worth including for the sake of balance.  --Old Moonraker 23:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Well I had to wait till the library opened, since the online text does not reach back to 2002 due to "moving wall", apparently. Anyway, the gist of the argument is that Shakeshafte was a common name in the area of Hoghton's influence - Preston. There are several recorded William Shakeshaftes from local Shakeshafte families, and the size of the bequest suggests that Mr Shakeshafte was probably a middle aged man, not a youth. There is no "conclusive proof", but Bearman argues that it is unlikely that Shakeshafte was the bald bloke from Stratford. Paul B 10:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[William Shakespeare#Early life|The Hoghton Will]] 

message: :This reverence has provoked an unforeseen negative reaction in the youth. In the 21st century most people in the English-speaking world encounter Shakespeare at school at a young age, and there is an association by some students of his work with boredom beyond comprehension and of "high art" not easily appreciated by popular culture; an ironic fate considering the social mix of Shakespeare's audience.
This sounds like somethig written from personal experiance, so I think that this needs a source as lots of things encountered in the school room on a hot summer's day brings "boredom beyond comprehension". Also I think some mention should be made in this section of the connection between rap and hip hop and Shakespeare:
*Douglas Lanier Shakespeare and Modern Popular Culture Oxford University Press, 2002
*:Various rap and hip-hop artists, too, have parodied Shakespeare, forming a rap Shakespeare sub-genre, although in some venues, Lanier points out that "the street culture of the modern Bronx is not that different from that of Elizabethan London." He also notes the stylistic similarities between rap and Shakespearian language: "both are poetry designed for performance, not the page; both feature language delivered against a strong metrical beat and display a mastery of rhythmic effects; both use what is for mainstream speakers of English a largely non-standard vocabulary, dense in allusions; both are self-consciously virtuosic in their wordplay. Rap's stylized qualities... provides an analogue for how Shakespearian English strikes the contemporary ear."
* http://arts.guardian.co.uk/edinburgh2002/story/0,,781676,00.html — http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3051527.stm
* http://artsedge.kennedy-center.org/content/3656/
* http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/shakespeare/60secondshakespeare/watch/midsummer_rap.shtml
--Philip Baird Shearer 14:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reputation