Template talk:Jew/Archive01

message: Given this division, some of the articles in the template were in desperate need of help.  I got caught up in a wiki-binge and created a number of new articles, modifying the template slightly to accommodate.
*Added Jewish religion link to top of the template, since the Jew-as-ethnicity issue is not as clear in the subpages, and readers may want to find out about the religions
*Jewish Population Centers - Took you to a list of famous Jews by country.  I moved that to a subcategory and created a new article Jewish population with information about current population centers and population changes.  I also created subarticles specifically on History of the Jews in France and History of the Jews in Germany for the population links
*Subcategories of Secular Jewish Culture - Do we need to list several types of Zionism?  I narrowed it down to two, but we could improve further with some other ideas of secular culture
*Jewish History - main article is weak and incomplete, I did some substantial work, including creating new articles on Jews in Italy, France, and Germany, as well as a new Jews in the Middle Ages article.  The categories were also a problem.  2000 years of history is covered by one article, "Rabbinical Leadership," which did not link to an article on the subject.  I added links to  Jews in Islamic Lands, Haskalah, the Middle Ages, and the Holocaust.
*Jewish History/Rabbinical Leadership - I cut
*Schisms among the Jews moved to a subpoint of history
Still needing work:
*Jewish Symbolism - I think that this could be eliminated, as it is religious in nature and covered elsewhere
*Secular Jewish Culture - very weak article --Goodoldpolonius2 04:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Division of template

message: Also, I think we should consider making it clear this is a Jewish national/ethnic template not a religious one, perhaps: Jew_temp_sand --Goodoldpolonius2 03:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, as I think you can see from the articles I authored, I do not believe this is the case, but the article had just such a disclaimer.  I inserted the Judaism link near the top for just this reason.  Perhaps we should make it the same background color as Jew and also label it "Main Article" --Goodoldpolonius2 06:18, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, you convinced me.  Are you okay keeping it where it is? (at the top, not equal) --Goodoldpolonius2 07:07, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: I have not disguised Judaism, IZAK, I was simply trying to make the template easy to understand.  The Jew article begins by explaining it is not about the religious beliefs of Judaism, but about Jews as a national and ethnic identity, which is, granted, entwined with the religion.  If you want, rename the "Jewish religion" section "Judaism," that would be A-OK, it just seemed less clear to have the top two lines be "Jews" and "Judaism" without explanation.  But I will wait for others comments as well. --Goodoldpolonius2 20:36, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish ethnicity and Judaism

message: IZAK, I think we should make the links under this more inclusive.  It is not that the varieties of Zionism are not important, it is just that they do not all need to be listed in the template.  Perhaps remove one or two of the Labor/Zionism links and include a link or two to Israeli culture or klezmer or something? --Goodoldpolonius2 03:50, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the importance of including Zionism, but I would argue that the clear intellectual movements behind Revisionist Zionism and Labor Zionism have faltered in recent years, or at least are not great indications of secular Jewish culture (it is not clear even in Israel that Labor holds to Labor Zionism and Likud to Revisionist Zionism, certainly not in their pure forms).  Similarly, the Russian labor movement is historically relevant, but not as critical to modern Jewish culture.  I would suggest that the links under secular culture consist of Zionism, Israeli culture, and perhaps one other? --Goodoldpolonius2 06:15, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Gee, you are pretty aggressive your replies, no?  I have not proposed adding Madonna, thank you for the mockery, and I indeed think that perspective is what is missing.  I just added several new articles on Jewish history, and edited three or four others, so I am not saying it is worth ignoring at all.  I am arguing that since we have a history section AND we have a culture section, it would be a good idea to give some idea of contemporary, or somewhat contemporary, Jewish culture in that section, not just political movements.  Yes the Israeli culture link needs improving (I didn't write it), but the two Zionist links are stubs also, and hardly seem relevant enough as separate categories -- wouldn't the main Zionism link, which explains both, make more sense?  Also, do you really think that the Bund is a deeply relevant topic?  Anyhow, what would you suggest if you absolutely had to have two links on contemporary Jewish culture (either Israel or Diaspora)?  What if we created the articles if none existed? --Goodoldpolonius2 07:06, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: Point taken on the difficulty of identifying modern Jewish culture, but see the expansions I made to the Secular Jewish culture article as a start -- and there certainly has been a distinct Jewish culture, however, as intertwined with religion as it is.  In any case, I was not trying to list Zionism as purely secular, but simply saying that "top-level" template pages should be strongly relevant.  Thus, one Zionism link would work, and possibly a link to Jewish culture (ill defined as that is), I still do not see why the Bund should be a top-level link. Perhaps we could write a new article on Jewish political movements (the Bund, kibbutz/Labor Zionism, etc.?) and link that, just so there is a starting point for researchers--Goodoldpolonius2 20:36, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Secular Jewish Culture

message: This table stacks up really ugly with the other tables on articles such as Romaniotes and Bene Israel on higher resolutions. You should probably fix this.
Also, isn't it a bit over-zealous to try to include all Jewish history, ethnology, linguistics, etc. in a single table?
Last, did you forget to include the Italkim] among the other ethnic groups? Etz Haim 03:39, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the table actually works quite well, even if it is long, it helps tie together the many articles in the subject. IZAK, I think that the "English" versions of the ethnicities are confusing, it would be better to let the article speak for themselves - calling Sephardic Jews "Spanish" and Ashkenazic "German" for example, seems to oversimplify.  It also creates confusion with the population cetners in the next section.  Your thoughts? --Goodoldpolonius2 05:09, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with the template 

message: See discussions about possible alterations to this template taking place at User talk:Alkivar/Jew. IZAK 02:59, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk: Possible alterations to template at User talk:Alkivar/Jew 

message: Can you try making it wider?  Also Zionism and the Bund are not Jewish culture, they are Jewish political movements. Jayjg  | (Talk) 03:14, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Wider?

message: Please leave the link there, so people know what they are discussing, until an agreement or alternative is reached.
It took me forever to figure out how to edit a template.  I embedded a link to the template page in the template itself, for newbies.  The idea occurred to me when I saw that many other templates do the same.  The link was recently removed with this reasoning: "Template is long enough. Those who want to, will get to it in any case."
The second part of his statement is a valid argument, which is why I've restored the link, and opened the topic up for discussion.
The first part of his statement, though, in my opinion — is his opinion.  Free access, and being able to contribute edits, are fundamental principles of Wikipedia.  Every document is a living, and ever-changing document.  Input should never be limited solely to an elite group of Wikipedians.
Please, let's discuss.
— <TALKJNDRLINETALK> 23:06, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually agree with (I think it was IZAK's) his remark, on both counts.  I'd actually like to see the template split up, so that there's one template that goes across the bottom with "Jews, Judaism, Jewish denominations, Jewish languages, Israel, Israelis, Jewish history" etc. with links in it to the main articles for each separate group of articles, each set of which would have its own smaller template to go on the right hand side of the main article and the set of related articles.  You'll find tho, that there are some pretty fierce defenders of status quo, vis à vis the current state of this template. Tomer TALK 05:24, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
I was trying not to use names :)
There is a difference between staunchly defending work you have already done, and preventing others from contributing - by blocking new paths for them to get here.  Even you suggested changes you would like to see.  So long as the Wikipedia is not an archive, this Template will never be a static document.
Thank you for sharing your insights.
— <TALKJNDRLINETALK> 14:15, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to Template 

message: At least three lines of the History section are where Jews are subjects of a larger empire (I'm thinking Bab/Grk/Rmn Empires) and think that they should be combined.  To this end, I created Jewish Nation Under Foreign Rule.
Perhaps it would be better to discuss?
— <TALKJNDRLINETALK>       21:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While I appreciate the impulse, I personally think the simplification doesn't help -- there weren't a lot of similarities between these periods, and they aren't usually grouped together in any histories of the Jewish people. Also, given the nebulous definition of nation this title makes it unclear when the Jewish nation wasn't under foreign rule between 576 BCE and 1948. --Goodoldpolonius2 22:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Grouping