Talk:Basilica of Saint-Denis

message: I am not sure if the material that was used to cover the body of Louis XVI is indeed called " Quiklime", meant is the same substance that was used in British prisons, " the shroud of fire" that Oscar Wilde mentions in " Ballad of Reading Goal".
Source: Stefan Zweig. Marie Antoinette.
It was the quick lime that made it possible to locate their remains. Other headless victims were just interred.
Robert Prummel 22:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The royal burrials 

message: It has been argued (most recently by architectural historian Dan Cruickshank in "Britain's Best Buildings" for the BBC) that Durham Cathedral, as well as being a superb example of Romanesque architecture, also contains the first evidence of Gothic design. The nave at Durham contains pointed traverses and pointed arches while flying buttresses in the form of quadrant arches are concealed over the aisles - the main elements of Gothic, 20 years before this style was seen elsewhere in Europe. 
I just moved this reference from the article. There is a sort of querie above, about the relative significance of Durham and Saint Denis, which I'll attempt to answer. There seems to be a sort of simplistic "either/or" being played out here. 
*No-one, not Dan Cruikshank, not any reputable art historian, ever cited Durham as the first Gothic building. An no-one claims it was built "in the Gothic style". This is the product of fuzzy thing. It isn't "in the Gothic style". Specifically, it has certain engineering features which were to later become standard features in Gothic architecture. Durham is most definitely in the Norman (or Romanesque) "style".  The proof that this is not about "style" is the fact that the buttresses are hidden in the aisle roofs. In the "Gothic style" they are a decorative architectural feature, as well as a feature of the engineering. 
*Saint-Denis is said to be "the first Gothic building". This doesn't mean that pointed arches, big glass windows, galleries over the arcade and flying buttresses were all invented at Saint-Denis. They weren't. 
All these things had been used at other places. 
#Pointed arches had been used in the arcades of the Romanesque cathedrals of Autun in France and Monreale in Sicily. But pointed arches alone don't make a Gothic building. 
#Some other buildings, like Durham, had vaulted roofs which had both round and pointed arches in the ribs. This usually happened for structural reasons. Later architects could see good reasons for using pointed arches for every rib. It made it easier to vault spaces of different shapes, while round arches really only worked well over square spaces. Pointed arches also looked good. So in the Gothic period they were used for "style" even when round arches would work fine for structure.
#Big windows are a feature of Gothic architecture. But the use of big windows had begun in Norman architecture, particularly in England where the sun was not so bright as in France. The first style of Gothic windows were a plain shape just like a Norman window, but pointed at the top instead of round. Later in the Gothic style, tracery was added. 
*Abbot Suger collected all these new features and put them together in a single building. It might be said that he "invented the Gothic Style", because, prior to this, although the features had existed, no-one had put them together in a single building. 
:This is why the choir of Saint-Denis is regarded as the first building "in the Gothic style".  
:Amandajm (talk) 11:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Durham and Saint-Denis

message: Reasons:
It is customary to refer to widely-known towns, heritage sites and buildings by their English name, particularly where the use of that name has been long established. In English, we do not hyphen the French saint's names. We do not use Basilique. These two non-English forms make the article harder to find. The building has always been called, in English, the Abbey of Saint Denis, and more recently the Basilica of Saint Denis. I cannot imagine why it was moved to the French name on the English page, but it was inappropriate to do so. I have attempted to move the article myself, but find that there is already a page of that name so I am unable to do it, so have requested move. 
Note:Cologne Cathedral, St Peter's Basilica, Florence Cathedral, Chartres Cathedral 
Also: The Basilica of Saint Denis is not usually called "Saint Denis Basilica" 
The title "Cathedral" is usually linked with a place name, eg. Chartres Cathedral, Chichester Cathedral etc, unless in a place where there are two cathedrals in the same town. Then it uses its saints name. St. Andrew's Cathedral, Sydney. Except in a few instances like "St Paul's Cathedral", which everyone knows means London. 
However, Basilicas are called not by their town name but by their saint's name. eg The Basilica of St Anthony of Padua, or St Mark's Basilica. The order is traditional and is not the same in each case. So while one speaks of St Peter's Basilica, one does not usually speak of St Denis's Basilica, or Saint Denis Basilica. It's called the "Basilica of Saint Denis". It is also written of as the "Basilica of St Denis". 
Either "Basilica of Saint Denis" or "Basilica of St Denis" will do. Amandajm (talk) 12:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  I'd go with the written-out "Saint" rather than "St" (with or without a period).  A lot of instances of the written "St Denis" are abbrevations, which may be appropriate in the body of the article but not as its title. --Atemperman (talk) 17:15, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the title should be Basilica of Saint Denis in recognition that this is an English article.Cgoodwin (talk) 01:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

text: People who set up conventions on wiki often do it in ignorance of the usual practice. We get, for example Lists and Wiki Commons categories that refer to "Cathedrals in Country Name". The English convention among writers and art historians for the last 200 years has been "Cathedrals of Country Name" eg "Cathedrals of England", "Cathedrals of France" and so on. 
*I'm happy to with "Basilica of St Denis", or "Basilica of St Denis". I am not happy to go with "St Denis' Basilica". 
*If we use "Cathedral" The it must be "Cathedral of Saint Denis" ie. the place not the person. However, the French seem to refer to it as a basilica rather than as a cathedral, so I think we should respect that. Amandajm (talk) 00:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Amandajm (talk) 00:37, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: This drove me crazy trying to figure out which 3 kings are NOT buried there. (as opposed to were not buried originally and moved). It appears to me
that vague touristy comments were "snagged" from other articles on the web, and no one bothered to find out this information :)
The answers (sources cited, to avoid OR issue)
Philip I - Saint-Benoît-sur-Loire (Wikipedia source)
Louis XI - Basilica Notre Dame de Cléry (Wikipedia Source)
Charles VIII - Basilica Notre Dame de Clery (Had to google for this one) www.nndb.com/people/856/000093577/
Otherwise, indeed every French Monarch from Hugh Capet (d 996) - Louis XVIII  (except Napoleon I) is buried there in some fashion. Post Louis XVIII  none (Charles X, Louis Philippe, Napoleon III) are. --64.142.36.76 (talk) 06:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad that I'm not the only one who, immediately upon reading "all but three," wanted to know which three! PurpleChez (talk) 19:59, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dont know if this belongs in article =

message: Although it is universally known as the "Basilica of St Denis", actually the temple does not have officially the title of Minor Basilica granted by the Vatican. See here: Basilicas of France.--83.44.54.87 (talk) 20:18, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a Basilica 

message: I would like to make some changes to the organization of the text so that this article resembles those of the other cathedrals. Following the history section, I would like to create separate sections on the different elements of the cathedral (west front, nave, choir, crypt, etc.) and move the description of the present cathedral there rather than in the history section. There will also be a separate section on art and decoration. Each section will have a separate gallery of images.  I think this will make it easier to find information about the different parts of the cathedral, without having to read through the entire history.  Comments and suggestions on this are of course welcome. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 07:36, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization of text - new sections  

message: "According to Suger, the original entrance on the north did not have sculpture, but mosaic, which Suger replaced by sculpture in 1540"
This doesn't work as written as Suger died in 1151 2A01:E34:EC79:6990:6948:6C13:F707:DA8B (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abbot suger