Talk:Cuba/Archive 17

message: I think this section may need some NPOV changing.  It only mentions the complaints of opponents to the Castro regime.  Other sources, for example, document  unusually good prison environments (better than the US).  I'll be researching this, but if anyone has mroe information regarding the suppression of dissidents and other topics that would be helpful.
Brazzbatch 21:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I made a few edits today. The degree of unsourced info / opinion pieces on there was shocking. Cuba is praised as a defender of human rights by many Latin American nations. I'll be keeping an eye on this article to ensure things come up to par. There's no reason that folks in Miami should use Wikipedia as their personal propaganda tool. Frank Pais 14:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Human rights section

message: One notes that information on expulsion of media correspondents from Cuba: "-  	A BBC reporter is among at least three international correspondents asked to leave. At least three foreign correspondents based in Havana have been told they must leave the country because of their 'negative' reporting. "  This deletion was performed by "Ejercito Rojo" hardly a NPOV pseudonym.  El Jigue (a mythological and ancient pseudonym)208.65.188.149 14:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: news of expelled correspondents deleted

message: 4 Polish and 1 Swiss journalists were expelled in 2005:
*Seweryn Blumsztajn, Gazeta Wyborcza
*Wojciech Rogacin, Newsweek (Poland)
*Jerzy Jurecki, Tygodnik Podhalański
*Anna Bikont, Gazeta Wyborcza
Gazeta Wyborcza is a liberal newspaper, close to the NYT.
Wikinews (Polish)
Xx236 12:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2005 expulsions

message: The economy is communist (or real socialist), not socialist.Xx236 09:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no such thing as a communist economy. Communism deals with politics, such as the rights of the working men, political representation, while socialism with economics and distribution of resources. They are two very different terms. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.110.133.226 (talk) 06:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  not socialist 

message: Why 3900 (not ranked)? 3900 is a CIA quote, ranked there.Xx236 12:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GDP 

message: Recently not only has there been two reported violent incidents of desperate Cuban military recruits trying to escape  .  Cuban-Americans consider both reporter Will Weissert (who recently praised the present Cuban health system citing Fidel Castro's "health" as an example "Fidel Castro may be ailing, but he's a living example of something Cubans take pride in — an average life expectancy roughly similar to that of the United States." ) and the US army source, Frank Mora, a National War College professor who  made a 2006 presentation lauding Raul Castro as a "moderate") to be less than reliable evaluators of the Cuban circumstance.  In addition, there was another incident (two dead) reported today in which "drug smugglers" (this is what the Cuban government is saying and this is not confirmed by drug seizure, but perhaps now that "evidence" will turn up (:>)) . El Jigüe208.65.188.149 19:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Military activity in Cuba on increase

message: 
===Request 1===
Hello,
I would like to edit the following sections:
- "Economy": to give comment about the fact that USA forbids its Cuban population to transfer more than $1,200/year to Cuba, which is the reason why not more than ~1.0 billion dollars are not imported to Cuba annually.
- "Independence": to mention that the "formal independence" wasn't really an independence since USA only won this territory after the war with Spain, when USA and Spain signed the peace treaty in Paris, by which USA got the rights to freely intervene in Cuba whenever its interests are jeopardized, by which USA gets a part of Cuban territory, and after which all of the Cuban presidents were under direct influence of USA government. Therefore, in Cuba, independence is celebrated on January 1, after the January 1, 1959. entrance of Castro's army into Havana.
- "From Batista to Castro": to mention that Ernesto Che Guevara was fighting in Sierra Maestra side by side with Fidel, which should be an interest fact, due to Che's popularity in the world.
- "Marxist-Leninist Cuba": to mention that the reason that USSR placed nuclear missiles on Cuba was that the USA had previously placed nuclear missiles in Turkey and some other countries of middle east, which was a direct threat to USSR. Thus, after Khrushchev and Kennedy made an agreement, both Soviet and USA missiles were drawn back, and USA agreed not to impose direct threat to Cuba in the (near) future.
This request among other oversights, omits the interesting point that the Platt Amendment (which allowed the US to interfere in Cuba when violence broke out) was repealed in 1933. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  several sections to edit 

message: Hello,
I would like to edit the following sections:
- "Economy": to give comment about the fact that USA forbids its Cuban population to transfer more than $1,200/year to Cuba, which is the reason why not more than ~1.0 billion dollars are not imported to Cuba annually.
- "Independence": to mention that the "formal independence" wasn't really an independence since USA only won this territory after the war with Spain, when USA and Spain signed the peace treaty in Paris, by which USA got the rights to freely intervene in Cuba whenever its interests are jeopardized, by which USA gets a part of Cuban territory, and after which all of the Cuban presidents were under direct influence of USA government. Therefore, in Cuba, independence is celebrated on January 1, after the January 1, 1959. entrance of Castro's army into Havana.
- "From Batista to Castro": to mention that Ernesto Che Guevara was fighting in Sierra Maestra side by side with Fidel, which should be an interest fact, due to Che's popularity in the world.
- "Marxist-Leninist Cuba": to mention that the reason that USSR placed nuclear missiles on Cuba was that the USA had previously placed nuclear missiles in Turkey and some other countries of middle east, which was a direct threat to USSR. Thus, after Khrushchev and Kennedy made an agreement, both Soviet and USA missiles were drawn back, and USA agreed not to impose direct threat to Cuba in the (near) future.
This request among other oversights, omits the interesting point that the Platt Amendment (which allowed the US to interfere in Cuba when violence broke out) was repealed in 1933. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request 1

message: I would like to propose the following modification:
from 
At the same time, the administration authorized plans for an invasion of Cuba by Florida-based exiles 
to 
At the same time, the U.S. administration authorized plans for an invasion of Cuba by Florida-based exiles
Otherwise, it is not clear from the paragraph which "administration" is being discussed.
--74.14.18.57 01:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request 2

message: I unprotected the page. -- Samir 01:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotected

message: Transitions of command in communist governments tends to be conspirational in nature.  In a series of reports "La Nueva Cuba" (a significant Cuban-exile news source) documents at least two other attempts of Cuban army recruits to flee and suggests that that there is conflict between Raul and the Cuban Communist Party . El Jigue208.65.188.149 21:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How am I expected to review that source exactly? The onus is on you to translate pertinent excerpts and establish the source's notability. El_C 19:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Friction  between Communist Party and Raul Castro

message: New "revisions" have "bolixed" up page, whole sections have been deleted.  This mess has delayed necessary real revisions. e.g economic conditions in first years of Batista's second regime are  made to seem far worse than reality, especially present reality.  The role of the "mafioso" at this time is exaggerated and not documented.   Attempts to shoehorn complex and significant Cuban history into  limited space results in gross simplifications and distortion. The retrogression of the living conditions and political freedom of the Cuban society during the Castros' rule is ignored.  Acceptance of present government statistics is horrendous El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to be more specific; cite diffs so we know what you're talking about. El_C 19:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New "revisions" have "bolixed" up page

message: While there is no doubt that there were organized crime figures in Cuba during the second Batista dictatorship 1952-1958; the level of these circumstances and comparison to present day situation is not given and is not documented.  El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How does any this relate to the article, specifically, concretely? El_C 19:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No documentation on "Mafia" in Cuba and poverty in Cuba in 1952-1958 period

message: It is a staple of Castro propaganda that "the mafia" were all powerful in Cuba.  It is obvious that members of US organized crime families were present in Cuba.  However, their numbers and influence has been vastly overrated.  For instance I know of no encounter between these elements and rebel forces, before Batista fell from power.  El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need to document extent of Mafia influence in Cuba

message: I was wondering if there is any concrete evidence on the organic food emergence in the Cuban society, The decrease in heart disease associated with an increase in vegetable intake. and such like that. Thank you ++N
++N One can be quite sure there are published statistics fromthe Cuban government pointing this out; and one can be equally sure that these statistics are finagled. El Jigue208.65.188.149 22:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just have to say (even though this is in response to an old comment) that from reading this and other comments on this page, one would think that every other government in the world was upstanding, honest and never fudged facts. Do people really believe the Bush administration is a culture of honor and transparency? Heck, I'm sure even the Canadians and Norwegians and Falkland Islanders are hiding something! ha! Saudade7 18:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organic foods 

message: So they complain and no such case has been documented yet, no international organization visited the prisons? 
What is the meaning of "The neutrality of this article or section is disputed" there? 
Xx236 10:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dissidents complain of harassment and torture 

message: Anyone know why there is a neutrality tag in the human rights section? Seems as though it may have been vandalism or a mistake of some sort and should be removed, no?
Simply listing claims of human rights abuses by human rights organisations is not evidence of human rights abuses.
Also this section in parts fails to cite sources for quite substantial claims for example
"Since 2003, human rights supporters have sent thousands of appeals to the Cuban authorities calling for the release of the prisoners. Sixteen have so far been released on medical parole.
Several of those still in jail suffer from poor health and their conditions have been exacerbated by an unhygienic environment, substandard care and inadequate medical treatment."- no source
The section also only looks at claims of abuses and fails to look at the debates from outside the Cuban government such at the UN declarations (US intimidation), role in the fights against apartheid in South Africa, human rights abuses against cuba (the "blocade"), humanitarian aid to places such as Venezuela and East Timor etc --Chatswood court 11:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality Tag in Human Rights 

message: The US is being brought before International Court over the banning of democracy to the citizens of Puerto Rico.  Basically because they are banned from being able to vote for the US president.
*Puerto Rico voting ban lands US in international court - By Michael Richardson; Date: Published on Wednesday, June 13, 2007
CaribDigita 23:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speaking of voting: Anyone want to write about US being brought before International Court? 

message: The following statement represents a one-sided view of Spanish colonial history. The words "oppressed", "enslaved", and "genocide" reflect a personal opinion, rather than an objective historical account:
"The Spanish, as they did throughout the Americas, oppressed and enslaved the approximately 100,000 indigenous people that resisted conversion to Christianity on the island. Within a century they had all but disappeared as a distinct nation as a result of the combined effects of European introduced disease, forced labor and genocide..." 
May I suggest that this paragraph is revised thoroughly.
"Well the Spanish needed the gold" is not a good excuse. One can make certain distinctions in some Terra Firme areas such as Mexico where the Aztecs ruled a tyranny. however, given the peaceful nature of the inhabitants of Cuba, this argument does not apply here  El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah sure, as long as you've got the 'reliable sources', to back it. GoodDay 16:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubtful neutrality in History Section 

message: Tried to insert a new reference in health section:
Hirschfeld, Katherine 2007 Re-examining the Cuban Health Care System: Towards a Qualitative Critique/ Cuban Affairs Vol. 2, Issue 3- July 2007 http://www.cubanaffairsjournal.org/Content.asp
and as much as a tried the following demographic section ended being messed up.  Having done such successfully many times before, don't know what is happening now cannot even reverse my corrections please HELP!!!! El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help! Help! Help! Gremlin attack

message: Reliable sources are reporting top level talks between US and Cuba military.  It is said that Perez Roque and Alarcon are out since they are not considered loyal to Raul. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Raul said negotiating with US Military

message: Throughout this article, there are a number of misspelled words and grammatical errors.  Someone who cares about editing encyclopedias should really go over it with a fine-toothed comb.
:Get out your comb. Don't complain about errors, if you spot them, fix them. That's part of being an editor. Don't be shy. GoodDay 17:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammatical Errors 

message: As expected mention of the standard expropriation of property of those who leave Cuba was deleted by a somewhat less than impartial commentator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:El_C).  The deleted material was:
"The emigration process could be traumatic." ([www.ajcarchives.org/AJC_DATA/Files/2001_3_SpecialArticles.pdf]) pp. 23-24)  And Kaplan continues with a quote from Marek Schindelman: *It is disastrous—the rich have left, some having foreseen the situation, but these are few. all assets [have been] taken over by the government, the militia, or other bandits who have simply taken over everything which our brothers have left behind after having worked for many years, sacrificing themselves to make their way. . . . Those who remain can do nothing; business is dying for lack of merchandise, and the large industries, as well as the..."
One wonders how the supporters of the Cuban government can rationalize the deletion of mention of a standard measure of the Cuban government.
El Jigue[[[User:208.65.188.149|208.65.188.149]] 20:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Whitewash continues

message: The new additions to the Maine explosion section seem somewhat overwrought and one sided.  They may well need some correction. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Maine explosion additions somewhat overwrought

message: There is a web site:
which shows photos and satellite imagery said to be of the houses of the rich and famous in Cuba.  El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From an anti-castrist site?... am i the only one seeing that many of the sources are downright POV??, the page you are listing isnt even a source, its a friggin forum!.
Agreed only sources approved by Cuban government should be used.  No nonsense published by escaped dissidents should be cited, for that would detract from the glory of the Cuban Revolution (:>)El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Its a site called "cuban secrets"... how legitimate you think the information in that page is?. And yes, theres a major issue if you use those sites, as there is no way what so ever to know if they are legitimate or not, its like using a far right wing site as a source for an article about Islam; its bound to have a POV issues.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.161.198.169 (talk) 01:54, August 20, 2007 (UTC) 
And we are going to find that on the official Cuban news, or from the limited access foreign reporters on the Island ? (:>). When a government such as that of Cuba imposes censures the press, such tends to validate whatever news sources are not under their control. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Houses of the rich and famous in Cuba

message: Miami Rumor: Castro is dead, Raul and Ricardo Alarcon feuding.  Arrests in the department of the Interior ("secret" police), and regular police gathering to prevnt riots. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Miami Rumor Castro is dead

message: There is a weird but apparently officially sanctioned in Venezuela (and seemingly in Cuba), TV interview characterizing Ernesto Guevara as a trotskyite.  It has so much marxist jargon that I could not follow it and got quite bored; however it does feature the not only Celia Hart (Cuban government official?) but also Trotsky's grandson Esteban Volkov. See
http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/celia-hart-interview/
El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ernesto Guevara as a trotskyite?

message: It is said that when something is denied officially it is at least part true. Thus, Hugo 
Chavez's denial of Castro's death might well be an indication that such has occurred. El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ...no, its not. How does that logic work to begin with?. You see, although this all very cute, wikipedia is not either a forum or a place for conspiracy theories and unless CNN, AP, Reuters or the cuban goverment confirms that Castro is dead, he is not at the time. How can i explain this further?, its been 50 years since unofficial sources have states that Castro is dead, remeber a year ago?, everyone was killing Castro because of the operation, did he died then?... why should the rumours be true now?...  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.161.198.169 (talk) 02:11, August 20, 2007 (UTC) 
Dear Anonymous 190.161.198.169: on the Island Castro's health is an official secret.  Thus news organizations cannot report on it from Cuba...thus to state as you do:
*" unless CNN, AP, Reuters or the cuban goverment confirms that Castro is dead, he is not at the time." seems rather oddly impractical. 
Oh by the way nationality (e.g. Cuban) is capitalized in English, although not in Spanish (e.g. cubano); and also "goverment" should read "Government."  Thus, it would appear you are a less well trained native Spanish speaker.  Do I have the honor of "speaking" with a Cuban  Government official? El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: ...you have issues.190.161.198.169 23:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I actually mean it, you have issues, i have no idea if they are psichological or if you are underaged, but it seems you dont accept any type of criticism and dismiss it as a whole with rather childish argumetal falacies; in my first suggestion to stop using dubious sources you replied in a sarcastic tone that we should then use Castro's propaganda (even though i never suggested that; you attacked my modest proposal right away), now that i give a rational answer that perhaps Castro is not death (which btw, time has proved me right), you think im part of the Cuban goverment for no reasson whatsoever (you seriously believe that anyone who doesnt talk crap about the cuban goverment MUST be part of the cuban goverment?, whatever happend to unpolarized?). Am i part of the Cuban goverment?, well only one way to find out! , search me and weep my friendless friend, why friendless?, well i took the liberty of searching you, turns out you do nothing else BUT meddling in Cuban related topics, with a clear partisan agenda. I wonder, why, so suddenly you seem so scary...190.161.198.169 08:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Official denial a sign of affirmation

message: Nuttycoconut Thanks was fixing it when your change came through.  El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good catch on Cuba page

message: Let's get one thing straight: Providing a source for a POV statement does not make that statement NPOV or indeed true. The quote about the Cuban health system is obviously inherently POV - it not only says that the health system is "in shambles", it also contains an attack on people who support it. While this may be an appropriate quote in an article which discusses the health system and details the views of its supporters and detractors, it is completely out of place in this article. Zocky | picture popups 16:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Almost every country in the world provides housing and medical benefits to government employees and certain other people, like recipients of certain awards, war veterans, etc. Those benefits differ by the position in the government or public services or the type of award. How on earth is that specific to Cuba and what makes it a "class privilege"? Zocky | picture popups 18:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FreedomWarrior's changes 

message: I was concerned about referring to Castro as a "prime minister".  According to the American Heritage Language Dictionary 4th edition, a prime minister is " the head of the cabinet and often also the chief executive of a parliamentary democracy"  I don't believe that the island of Cuba can be called a "parliamentary democracy".  Who was the last person to run in an election against Castro?  Or better yet when was the last election?  One could then argue that Batista was a "president" or "prime minister" and not a dictator, as referred to here in the text.  Since he came to power through a military coup and has not held elections in decades I think the term Dictator is more appropriate.  The definition for a dictator is "an absolute ruler".  Also I would argue that there really isn't a Cabinet at all, but instead a military junta of ex-military rebels who hold military ranks and serve at the appointment of the dictator.  Therefore I have edited the text as appropriate.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.19.42.74 (talk) 21:03, August 22, 2007 (UTC) 
:What did you do? Inserting huge bulk of info without any single reference? Please read our core policies of neutral point of view and verifiability plus related guidelines before you add the same material. Thank you. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 21:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PM or dictator → To help you a bit i suggest you read Let the facts speak for themselves if the NPOV policy is too much fro a reading. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 21:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Nonsense. Update your knowledge and don't be tempted by ignorance. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prime Minister? 

message: There are a few citations to "American Policy Failures in Cuba--Dagger in the Heart!" This book is of questionable accuracy and is almost forty years out of date. I recommend the citations be replaced with modern citations that can actually be checked or the statements of the citations be removed.66.41.163.240 14:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad citation

message: One of the most recent reports on Castro's health states:
"Cuban FM dispels rumours about Castro getting worse
Posted: 24 August 2007 1027 hrs
  	
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/295744/1/.html  	
BRASILIA : Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque Thursday said President Fidel Castro was still recovering from his operation last year and was keeping busy, having personally instructed him on his visit here.
While attending the Forum for East Asia Latin American Cooperation (Fealac), Roque, in an interview with AFP, dispelled rumours about the Castro's health taking a turn for the worse since his 81st birthday on August 13.
Castro, who after stomach surgery a year ago handed over power to his brother Raul, "is steady, on track with his recovery, showing discipline, a lot of dedication and a lot of activity, writing, reading and working," Roque said.
Although the communist leader has not appeared in public for more than a year, he has appeared in photographs and eight videos.
The last video was shown June 5.
He continues "in process of recovery," Roque said. "
Such is very far from proving Castro is still alive...El Jigue208.65.188.149 03:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Even Castro's videos are getting old

message: Repeatedly insertions of level of class privilege and the stripping of property from those who leave have been deleted repeatedly, without discussion and/or rebuttal.  These are important official policies of the Cuban Government... El Jigue208.65.188.149 03:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whereas the insertion was done by El Jigue for his pov. You see, it is a double-edge sword,. And of course that section is unlike one that exists in any other country article How about class privilege in the United States article, do you think that would go well? Having billionaires alongside people who eat out of the garbage? But that dosen't fir with your point of view , I suppose El_C 03:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not interested in discussing the political philosophy end of it; just that if it's a topic in this country article, surely it qualifies in others. El_C 03:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not appropriate in other country articles either, because their function is not to "attack" (as you put it) wrongs in those countries and, crucially, because the whole thing is a matter of POV. In one view, what Cuban government does is very different from what US or other governments do. In the other view, all governments don't give jobs to people who oppose the existing political system (in Cuba socialism, in USA democracy) and they prefer to give jobs to members of their own parties (GOP in the US federal government, CP in Cuba). There are articles which are appropriate places for detailed discussion of these subjects, but general articles about countries are not it. Zocky | picture popups 07:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: class privilege and other erasure

message: I deleted
:"His spy in Havana was Carlos Carbonell a Cuban Freemason."
as unclear, 
:"It could not have been a magazine explosion caused by a coal fire because the coal in the area of the damage had been used and fire-walls did not allow this to happen. The keel was bent indicating it had been a mine, there were dead fish on the bay and a hole on the sand below
the ship. "
and
:"The Freemason-s used an 100 kilogram mine."
as unproven. Numerous studies, including one by no less than Hyman Rickover, could not agree on the cause. On another note, I question Maine being called a battleship, regardless what she's commonly called; she was rated an armored cruiser.  Montgomery Scott 03:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: You da [[USS Maine (ACR-1)|''Maine'']]?

message: I don't see it, when Puerto Rico (for instance) mentions it prominently. What did natives call it? Or, if it's from a native name, what does it mean?  Trekphiler 04:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gracias. José Martí 15:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What's in a name?

message: Rumors of Castro's death are increasing , and the US Coast Guard is said to be on alert. Thus the pressure on the Cuban government either to produce a living Castro no matter what condition he may be in, or admit he is dead is becoming overwhelming. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a rumours section in the Fidel article, we dont need one here. When its announced by CNN and the BBC, then we publishh he has died and not before, SqueakBox 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreeing with SqueakBox. GoodDay 23:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I should've kept my mouth shut. GoodDay 17:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumors of Castro's death on increase

message: As "proof" that Castro is living an article said to be by Fidel Castro on Eduardo Chibas has been published.  One should note that Eduardo Chibas was not quite the knight in shining armor some make him out to be, matter of fact in demagoguery he had few equals. For instance he started a fist fight in the Cuban senate, accusing his opponent of corruption, he provoked and then engaged in numerous duels to "first blood" in which he usually fared badly.  His suicide that he staged as public spectacle can be readily attributed to the embarrassment caused by the failure of his charges against an honest public official.  All this is  readily verifiable by a perusal of the US papers of the time. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But the article is apparantly more about Fidel than Eduardo, I hear ! -- Beardo 05:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eduardo Rene Chibas

message: Please see the deletion vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Bahamian Americans. Badagnani 03:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion vote

message: Raul Castro recently returned from a visit to Italy to see relatives there, this is believed related to an official visit .  Since Raul Castro apparently visits Italy with some frequency (see cited article), it is conceivable that he may be seeking to retire there. Reasons for this could include the strength of the recently renamed Italian Communist Party would provide political protection against deportation, and that such a retirement might promote lifting of US sanctions against Cuba, if it were accompanied by free elections in Cuba. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Howabout adding it to the article, since you've got a source for it? That's the proper place for it. GoodDay 18:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Why are you telling 'us' this? if you're not gonna apply it to the article. GoodDay 19:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Raul Castro visits Italy

message: The real story is where is Fidel Castro. for it is clear that the Cuban Government has to either produce him, or report on his death, for that government is rapidly losing any remaining credibility they may ever have had. This in turn completely undermines any and all statements and "data" produced by the Cuban government.  No ranting or raving by Castro supporters can cover this up andy longer. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you telling us this? if you're not gonna apply it to the article. GoodDay 19:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuban Crisis of Credibility

message: Venezuelan paper showing a file foto of Fidel Castro with Chavez calls Castro a "walking corpse of history." . El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again (with clarity)- Why are you 'gossiping' about Fidel Castro's possible demise and Raul Castro's 'future retirement plans'? Why not add these 'events' to the article itself - This isn't a 'gossip page'. GoodDay 18:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, it's your 'gossip page'. You rule, pal. GoodDay 01:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Venezuelan Paper calls Castro "Walking Corpse"

message: Apparently mention of the neo-Taino roots of a proportion of the Cuban population have been removed...However, despite this analyses Cuban mitochondrial DNA will continue to show these "roots."  This appears to be part of a major problem in Wikipedia in which the written word takes precedence over reality as are remarks to the effect that 'Castro is not dead until the media says he is' or 'Castro cannot be referred to as a dictator'... El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about bugging you; afterall this is your 'gossip corner'. Again, forgive my actions. GoodDay 01:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Again neo-Taino genealogical data deleted

message: One notes with a smile that the section: 
"Limits of information on Cuba
In addition to scholarly concerns and disputes among experts on Cuba, a major factor limiting accuracy of information about the Island is the all pervasive censorship by the Cuban Government. "
was deleted after mere hours by "Ejercito Rojo." This "critic" did not leave reason nor comment.
Apparently "Ejercito Rojo" did not realize that by doing such, and removing a well documented source merely she/he/they (after all Ejercito is a collective noun) merely proved the point  El Jigue208.65.188.149 00:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Limits of information on Cuba

message: One realizes with an even wider smile that Lapsed Pacifist has undertaken the task of censoring anything that makes the Cuban government look bad.  Thus he demonstrates that media out of Cuba is subject to censorship on Cuban matters. However, such censorship is strongly pro-Cuban government. El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we should burn him, witch!witch!. Anyways, you see, we need to keep the article neutral, that means we cant either place information that is too pro-cuban or too pro-miami (couldnt came up with a better term there), so that means that what he is doing is right, wikipedia is not indended to be with any political alligiance, i suggest you use Conservapedia for that matter. Anyways, it would be great if you would stop making acusations of every user out there that tries to make this article NPOV, you cant really bully users into not editing pages.Kessingler 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Our very own censor

message: "You cannot assert, as a matter of fact, that the embargo is responsible for Cuba's economic situation.
It is partly responsible.
"Chomsky's criticisms of supposed censorship in the U.S. are not relevant. This is an article about Cuba, not the U.S."
I'm talking specifically about censorship of reporting on Cuban issues, which exists in both Cuba and the US.
Lapsed Pacifist 23:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To the Warrior 

message: I would like to discuss about the user ElJigue, which seems to have hijacked this page for his own personal political inclinations. Currently the page is a mixture of credible sources mixed with sites that have dubious information or credibility, whenever a user tries to revert these changes into an article that is less POV, the user has repeatedly and fervently revert these changes and acused such users of even being a cuban official or downright censors of "the truth", in this case being his political beliefs. The User aparently does nothing else in wikipedia but to discuss and edit articles about Cuba, theres hardly a message in the discussion page that doesnt have a comment of his and yet he does not have either an account or belong to WikiProyect Cuba, while in other articles theres little tolerance for vandals such as he, it amazes me how no one seems to be aware of his little dictatorship here in this article or in the discussion page, which is used by him as a forum to discuss every little gossip he can find.Kessingler 16:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Forget it Kessingler, you haven't got a chance. GoodDay 21:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: El Jigue

message: There is an interesting Chomsky quote at  which reads:
*"C. RELEASE DEMANDED by the Campaign for Peace and Democracy
“We, the undersigned, strongly protest the current wave of repression in Cuba. We condemn the arrests of scores of opponents of the Cuban government for their nonviolent political activities, and the shockingly long prison sentences — some as high as 28 years — imposed after unfair trials. . . We call on the Castro government to release all political prisoners and let the Cuban people speak, write and organize freely.”
Signed by Michael Albert, Stanley Aronowitz, Eileen Boris, Robert Brenner, Noam Chomsky, Joshua Cohen, Mike Davis, Richard Deats, Haroldo Dilla, Manuela Dobos, Ariel Dorfman, Barbara Ehrenreich, Samuel Farber, Janeane Garofalo, Barbara Garson, Susan Griffin, Thomas Harrison, Adam Hochschild, Doug Ireland, Naomi Klein, Joanne Landy, Jesse Lemisch, John Leonard, Sue Leonard, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Nelson Lichtenstein, Michael Lowy, Grace Paley, Katha Pollitt, Matthew Rothschild, Edward Said, Jennifer Scarlott, Carl Schorske, Juliet Schor, Ellen Schrecker, Stephen Shalom, Adam Shatz, Alan Sokal, Chris Toensing, Immanuel Wallerstein, James Weinstein, Naomi Weisstein, Cora Weiss, Peter Weiss, Cornel West, Reginald Wilson, Howard Zinn and others. Published in The Progressive, 2003."
Do not have the complete quote so did not insert it.  El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting Chomsky quote

message: Cuba's mineral exports in colonial times seems deserve a line or two, e.g. 
*Dana, William B.1844 The Copper Mines Of Cuba in Merchants' Magazine and Commercial Review. 11 July to December 1844) New York, 142 Fulton Street XL Digitized version available at http://books.google.com/books?id=DYUEAAAAQAAJ&dq=copper+wales+cuba See pp. 13-14, and 86-91  for regulations in Cuba,  pp. 143-146, other pages 79, 550, also refer to Cuba.
*Reekie, Hugh 2007 The Cornwall  1848 - 1871 - A wooden Barque in the Emigrant Trade (River Thames), and latterly, the Copper Ore and Guano Trades - out of Swansea, Wales - page last modified 29 May 2007 http://members.allstream.net/~max-com/barque.Cornwall.htm
*Skinner, Nick (accessed 9-7-07) Welsh Copper: a currency for Africa. BBC Wales history. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/slavery/pages/copper.shtml “Cuba continued to use slaves in its copper mines until the 1860s - and most of this copper was shipped to Swansea for smelting.”
*Schwartz, Sharron P.  1997-2007 (accessed 9-7-07) Cobre. The Cornish in Latin America. University of Exeter http://www.projects.ex.ac.uk/cornishlatin/cobre.htm
EL Jigue208.65.188.149 00:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba's copper exports in colonial times

message: It would seem that a power struggle between Raul and younger pretenders is underway see:
http://www.cubanalisis.com/ART%C3%8DCULOS/EL%20REY%20Y%20LOS%20DELFINES.htm
El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should add this observation & source to the article. GoodDay 19:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This should also be added at Raul Castro article. GoodDay 20:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: News of Power struggle

message: Chomsky yes, Spanish sources no
Apparently El C feels it his prerogative to delete from any source that he feels is not appropriate and somehow (:>) such deletion of information only helps the present Cuban government maintain its news blackout on its politics. El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with El C. This is the English Wikipedia - specifically aimed at English speakers. Why should readers with less than good Spanish be excluded from the information flow? Tantamount to c!#*!?"&ip, if you ask me! Uh sorry, wrong thread. Anyway it's you in your indolence who aids the Cuban government. If you really want to spread the word, then first translate it! MichaelW 23:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

text: anti Castro elitist you mean. MichaelW 00:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ProCastro "editors" 

message: Some right polarised editor has deemed it necessary to describe Chomsky as "...a committed anarcho-marxist theoretician and thus not an unbiased observer...". Taking this as a precedent I'd like to suggest that all those quotes, references and citations from known anti-Castroites, that some editors use to  support their edits, are similarly labelled, eg "wrote/said [Joe Bloggs] a dues paying member of [insert appropriate organisation] and thus not an unbiased observer". MichaelW 20:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No not banned, just given ASBOs and confined to their place of residence.MichaelW 00:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "ban 'known anti-Castroites,'"? Wouldn't that eliminate about everybody who's contributed to this page? =]  Trekphiler 13:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Exposing the POVs

message: Once again this very important topic was deleted from discussion, thus it would seem that Fidel Castro's origins are to remain a "state secret' in Wikipedia
According to Castañeda Katiuska, Blanco 2003 (accessed 9-10-07). Todo el tiempo de los Cedros. Paisaje familiar de Fidel Castro Ruz. paginas 497-501. Casa Editora Abril. La Habana. 2003.  http://www.xenealoxia.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa
By 1941 Ángel Castro y Argiz (Fidel Castro's father) had fathered five children with his first wife Maria Luisa Argota. These were: Pedro, María Lilia, Antonia María Dolores, Georgina de la Caridad and Manuel, only first two survived to date of this naturalization document (January 2nd 1941). Fidel is not mentioned, this demonstrates that Fidel Castro was born out of wedlock and was still unrecognized at age 13. Raul (although commonly believed not to be a son of Angel) is also not mentioned although he would be about eight at this time.
Of additional interest Angel Castro is said to have arrived in Cuba the third or fourth of March 1899. There is no mention of military service in the Spanish Armed forces in Cuba prior to this date. However, this book was printed in Cuba and thus such things could have been covered up. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I see. When are you going to add this to the article? Having it herer will only cause others to doubt its validity. GoodDay 00:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I see you've been trying to add it. PS- Still though, having it here, won't help. GoodDay 00:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Angel Castro's naturalization certificate becomes "a state secret"

message: A certain chemical engineering student , with no apparent  previous interest in Cuban matters, has taken on to himself to removed citation  to a photoessay on poor housing conditions in Cuba. El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Housing conditions in Cuba censored

message: Recent changes to Cuban history section appear to ignore the considerable influence of the Anexionista movement (e.g. see José Antonio Saco (1797-1879)and its attempts to promote union with the U.S. One could start with CUBA: CLAVES PARA UNA CONCIENCIA EN CRISIS
CARLOS ALBERTO MONTANER
1982 - firmaspress.com http://www.firmaspress.com/Cuba_claves_para_una_conciencia_en_crisis.pdf.  El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anexionista movement

message: --CubanoAmericano 15:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Unofficial External Link 

message: I think that the description of the Cuban independence war leans too much to an US perspective. There is no account of the different wars between the Cubans and the Spanish, etc., etc. --CheoMalanga 15:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuban War of Independence