Talk:Guanche language

message: Kintetsubuffalo said:
:→ Are you really sure that the Guanche language (or at least its name) was originally rendered in Berber script? The fact that it was a Berber language does not mean it necessarily made use of its own writing system; it may well have been an oral language. Note that the article says "Early accounts stated the Guanches themselves did not possess a system of writing". It's probably possible to figure out how one can spell the word "Guanche" in neo-Tifinagh, but will this correspond to an actual ancient spelling in any original script? I just wanted to ask the question. (but note that I'm no specialist, so I may be wrong here). Cheers, Womtelo 22:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A very good point, indeed. There are inscriptions found on the some of the Canary Islands that have been identified as the western variant of the Lybico-Berber script; however, these are not clearly associated with the Guanche peoples living on the islands at the time of conquest. Early chronicles indicated that the natives asked the Spanish if they could read the inscriptions. Perhaps the authors of the inscriptions came and left, or they were wiped out or assimilated by the more permanent inhabitants of the islands, and mastery of the script was forgotten. There have been numerous studies on the existing inscriptions and petroglyphs, but I'm not as informed as I'd like to be on the current state of research on it. Twalls 00:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are some decoded inscriptions, according to Canarian philologist and historian Ignacio Reyes García. Actually, I'll improve the article by including some citations, inscription translations, phrases and the reconstructed numbers.--Il Qathar (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I did put a new table with the reconstructed numbers, but it has been deleted for some reason by Kwamikagami, a reason which I ignore. Kwami, could you please use the Talk section to discuss the use of that table instead of just deleting it? It's not that I think I'm  untouchable and that the table was wonderful, but when I take time and effort to do something I appreciate that somebody discusses with me before they simply revert my editing, or at least a mention of why it has been deleted. Thank you --Il Qathar (talk) 23:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's redundant:  We already have such a table.  — kwami (talk) 00:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: kwami It might be redundant, but in any case it's a contribution with the reconstructed phonetics of the original numerals. It helps to understand the possible graphical errors in some of the copies, as the contaminated arabic numbers, which can't be traced to a common Berber root. If you think that it's no use by it's own, why don't you include the contribution to the previous list? At least it has citations, and it works as a cleaned up list as comparison with the others. I still don't think there's a need to just delete it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Il Qathar (talk • contribs) 22:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Berber script

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The lead states that Guanche is . However, the rest of the article lists only individual words. Have any complete sentences actually been recorded, and if so, could some be included? Lennart97 (talk) 15:12, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, actually there are a few, even with hypothetical etymologies through comparative reconstruction. I've been compiling and studying them for years. If considered useful and reliable, I could provide them with some correct contextualisation in a well written section.--Il Qathar (talk) 13:03, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, I forgot to add this page to my watchlist so I'm seeing your reply only now. Yes, that would be great! Please add whatever you think is relevant, as long as everything is reliably sourced of course. Lennart97 (talk) 11:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, I'll include some of the most unmistakably Berber, which have less doubtful reconstructions based on comparison with Berber roots.--Il Qathar (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:   Well here I have a suggestion of what we could include. I include parts of the original texts (contemporary-ish historical records) since they already provide more or less accurate translations, or at least a context and basic semantics (should I translate them to English instead?). What it needs is to adjust to Wikipedia's style and conventions regarding this kind of content - hypothetical reconstructions with meaning. Should I write the translations as literally as possible, as gloss description, or are they fine like that (as long as the citation is provided), translating the author's translation into Spanish?
«¡¡Uh!! Magné Mastáy / Achen tumba Manéy. ¡¡Oh!! Madre del cielo / Madre de la tierra» Prayer to the Virgin Mary during the Candelaria festivity (Tenerife). [Eduardo P. García, 2001]
*Uh! Ma-gnnă, Ma-stăy aše-n tənwa(t), Ma-năy!
“Oh! mother of sky, mother of growth (poetic expletive) of the brotherhood, mother of new.”
«Alzanxiquian abcanahac xerax, que quiere dezir, Lugar del ayuntamiento del hijo del grande» [Espinosa, 1594]
*Als-ənɣ ikiyăn abəqq a-nn ahaẓ Aɣəraɣ.
“Restart for us the roots of the covenant/commune where the kin of Xerax* is.”
 *Also known as Guayaxerax (“he who sustains”), local syncretic form of Jesus during the evangelisation of Tenerife.
aɣər-aɣ = “supports the Sky” (Reyes) | ɣereH = “keep safe, sustain” (Militarev).
Y Yguída, y Yguan Ydafe, que quíere decír: Dice que caerâ Ydafe. Y respondía el otro cantando: Que guerte yguan taro: que quíere decír, dalelo que traes, y no caerâ. » [Abreu, ca. 1590]
_*Id yəwəḍa, id yəwăn, Iḍaf?
_*Kkə gər-t; yəwăn tar-u.
“_Idafe*, does he fall or is he satisfied?
_Go and give (offering); he will be satisfied soon.”
 *Rocky pillar in the center of the Taburiente caldera (La Palma).
Iḍaf = sentinel, guard (Reyes)
«Doramas. Aguay marana en maraguas, ay ha acha Aytimadas ayta, ast au tindana ast chanbeneguer ast bentagayre / Sabiduría. aspe Aramaguadas holdaya / Doramas. adu hi area [...] // Sabiduría. Sabeys que diçe que si esta aqui Autindana, o chanbeneguer, O bentagayre tres Canarios balentisimos por que quiere Luchar Conellos. yo le digo que no estan sino Tres damas hermosas que le buscan que vaje aca y diçe que ya biene [...] / Doramas. Aramera macura aramera macura. [...] / Sabiduría. dice que parecemos cosa del çíelo» [Cairasco 1582: 40r]
_*A way əmărəna n əmărəwas! Ay ɣa ašša i-tămaddas ay-da. As-da aw-tendara, as-da šanbănəger, as-da wa-n-taggayd.
_*Asəbbi ăra-mawaḍ. As ɣol ddăy-a.
_*A ddu-ɣ har-a.
_*Ar amăr am aqqur-a.
“_Lo, the overcomer of hardship! He who comes to the fight is here. Where are you, Autindana/Outindara, Chanbeneguer, Bentagayre/Bentagayde?
_Fair young girls (we are). Come down here.
_Still, I’ll go.
_(You are) even like the heaven."
«Las casas de mujeres religiosas era sagrado para delínquentes; llamabanlas Tamogante en Acoran, que significa cassa de Dios» [Gómez Escudero, ca. 1484]
*Taməggant-n-aqquran
“(Female) Servant of *Acorán.”
 *Celestial god.
Feel free (all of you) to correct this and rewrite it according to Wikipedia's standards. I will work on it anyway. The citation links are there if anybody wants to include it at any point. Cheers.--Il Qathar (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentences 

message: Might be a borrowing of ‘canicula’ and therefore not be of much help identifying Guanche's origin.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 11:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The source text refers explicitly to that word as being Guanche, and there's even a theonym derived from it: Hucancha, a "demonic spirit", likely equivalent to a dog deity of La Palma (Haguanran, where "hagua" also means "dog", the black spirit hounds of La Gomera and the similar tibicenas of Gran Canaria. Even if its a Latin borrowing, that wouldn't be odd at all given that Berber languages (including the far removed Tuareg dialects) contain many words of Latin origin. Il Qathar (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  cancha 

message: Hayward 2000 is a general overview on the topic of Afroasiatic languages and therefore a lousy source for a niche topic like this. The author hasn't published on Guanche before and likely has very little topical knowledge, given his sweeping claim that Guanche is ‘clearly another AA language’ even though most of the vocabulary is a complete mystery and almost nothing is known about its grammar. And too boot, this source is used to support the claim that Guanche is a Berber language but the author doesn't even claim that. It seems even Hayward had enough humility to not commit any further than to Afroasiatic. The other other author he cites writes: ‘But numerous isoglosses connecting Guanche with Chadic and other Afrasian languages to the exclusion of Berbero-Libyan, indicate a divergent development.’ Unfortunately Igor M. Diakonoff doesn't actually show these isoglosses in his text and looking at some word lists I can see no clear correspondences between Guanche and either reconstructed Proto-Chadic or modern Hausa and all the basic vocabulary is completely different. He died twenty years ago, so we cannot ask him for clarification.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 14:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hayward, 2000