Talk:Green Man

message: Hello, I just wondered whether there might be a connection of the "Green Man" with celtic art - especially that of the statue(s) of the "Prince of the Glauberg" in Germany, as to be seen here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg
The "bubbles" around the ears seem to be leaves, which would add to the interpretation of the "Green Man" being a symbol or even a deity of celtic origin. It would imho make sense to depict a prince or a king with signs of authority - of which elements symbolising a deity would be a good example. Alrik Fassbauer (talk) 23:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Connectin to celtic art ? (Glauberg statues)

message: Make a section listing fictional depictions of the Green Man. I know Robert Jordan's The Eye of the World prominently included the Green Man, and I can't believe that to be the only example. --maru  (talk) Contribs 23:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another fictional depiction of the Green Man that might be of interest to mention is the character of Tom Bombadil in J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. -- Sam, 12:50, 22 February 2006
Hard to see Bombadil as the Green Man, possibly Ghan Buri Ghan is closer. GhanBuri Ghan is described as a woodwose or wildman, not necessarily the same thing. There was a novel called The Green MAn by Kingsley Amis, made into a TV movie starring Albert Finney in 1990 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098813/
Pignut 07:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: I have tested the link to Bog Brothers - Beloved Order of the Green Man. This link was found not to work; the address does not function correctly. I could find no other mention of BOG on a search. I have replaced this link with an alternative link to which I believe the author/editor was referring. abdullahazzam
need photos  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.83.169 (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Bog Brothers

message: According to my studies, the Green Man was a pagan deity of the forest.  He was also known as Jack of the Green and was the personification of the greening of the earth with the coming of Spring. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Utahwitch (talk • contribs) 16:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discuss the history of the Green Man 

message: Is that the Christian or the Moorish part of the Alhambra? --84.20.17.84 10:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alhambra 

message: We should add a link to the Lady Raglan who coined the name -- I don't know the correct link myself. 
(I'm guessing that she is the former Julia Hamilton, wife of FitzRoy Somerset, 4th Baron Raglan.) -- 201.19.11.75 12:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lady Raglan 

message: One of the picture captions says: "A medieval Green Man on the capital of a column in an English kjili" - the last word appears to be gibberish. Crypto-vandalism? Smithfarm too lazy to sign in 85.71.124.239 (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it was vandalism from last October or November that had not been caught.  It is now fixed. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 18:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Kjili?

message: I removed the following paragraph from the article and bring it here for discussion:
:The Resurrection theme is present in many of the independent figures linked to the green man. Foliate heads and masks have served as images for Rome's Bacchus, Egypt's Osiris, Greece's Dionysus, Britain's "The Green Knight" and Jack in the in all of these separate artistic representations of foliate heads, with similar death/rebirth themes spanning millennia of time in Europe, North Africa, and Asia. Green Men masks and gargoyles can be seen in London's Westminster Abbey, The Spanish Alhambra, British "Green Man" houses, Moscow's cathedrals, the ancient Egyptian Museum in Torino Italy, New York City's brown stones, and mosques in India. The personified leaf mask has been historically resurrected as a symbol for many western rebirth myths; perhaps due to cultural adoption, or mere chance.
It is a rather long paragraph, which repeats things that have already been said elsewhere in the article, has a speculative and unencyclopædic tone, and has no references for its claims.  And then, it ends on a note of uncertainty as to its argument.  All in all, rather problematic, I would say.  Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 19:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ressurection theme? 

message: Can anyone assist this reader, in his ignorance, by explaining the purpose of the   template in the article? In his browser (which of course may not be representative) it is displacing the "Types of Green Man" section head awkwardly to the right, while leaving the rest of the paragraph aligned to the left. --Old Moonraker (talk) 18:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, it's been a week now: I propose deleting it in favor of the standard table of contents. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Replaced by standard ToC; no longer forms part of the "Types of Green Man" section title. User preferences may be set to default at "Hide ToC" if the excess white space is a problem. Good luck! --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Floating Table of Contents 

message: I sujest the seciton "Trivia" be removed as it contains a Lists of miscellaneous information. Overmind 900 (talk) 14:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't see anything of relevance or value there. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's filling up again: a pop track and two mentions ("quite possibly" referencing the Green Man — pur-lease) in computer games. Views on removing it once more? --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lose it. We lost Jethro Tull's Songs from the Wood, the Wicker Man and the Kingsley Amis BBC film adaptation from this list long ago (all equally valid – or invalid – references). If the editors of the articles on album tracks, novels, films or game characters think their pages relate to Green Man, those pages should link to this page, but probably not vice versa. On those grounds, I think the Amis novel ref (in Further reading) could probably go, as it's the first item on the disambiguation page? SiGarb | (Talk) 21:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of section 

message: I think it is true that the green man is an offshoot of the greek god pan or is very similar, nowhere in the article does it mention pan at all, I think there should be a section with info on pan and other similar dieties. Any thoughts? Wizard 109109 (talk) 21:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Should be in. Here's a source to start us off. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to the God Pan 

message: I corrected (I hope) my original section on Modern Images. I first learned of the various artists mentioned through the work of Phyllis Araneo, whose original thesis on the subject is published online at the Coast Research Database maintained by the University of the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia. I cited this database for anyone who wishes to read her thesis. I have also added external links to the artworks featured in the section so that readers can get a visual sense of the variety of the modern renderings of Green Man. I'm still looking for a couple of them; if I find them I'll add those links too, or possibly a picture in text.
Dgu56 (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, probably, as it's a commercial site, strictly speaking. I should have done that yesterday (story of my life… ;-) ) SiGarb | Talk 10:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Images 

message: I replaced the "Mythical" in the following sentence to "Religous"  ""Religous figures such as Cernunnos, Sylvanus, Derg Corra, Green George, Jack in the green, John Barleycorn, Robin Goodfellow, Puck, and the Green Knight all partake of the Green Man's nature;"". I did this because mythical implies falsehood and contempt toward those who see "The Green Man" as a religous figure, and since people don't refer Christianity on here to mythology, I saw it as insulting to do so with another, arguably older, religion. CelticsFinest (talk) 02:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, "mythical" was the proper term. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing Condecending Tones 

message: Any connection between the Green Man motif and the Roman god Vertumnus? Lily20 (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vertumnus 

message: sorry but Osiris is not a corn diety.  corn developed in meso america; Osiris is an emmer/barley diety.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.114.148.167 (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In UK English, "corn" can refer to cereal grains such as barley. "Maize" is the unambiguous term for the crop native to meso-America. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, Bill. ---RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive 17:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Osiris, corn deity?

message: http://www.mikeharding.co.uk/greenman/green6.html
This is source 12. No such web page.  MathewTownsend (talk) 23:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Replaced. Thanks for noticing, and don't forget WP:BOLD!  All the best.--Old Moonraker (talk) 08:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  bad link 

message: The article's introduction describes the Green Man as "a sculpture, drawing, or other representation of a face surrounded by or made from leaves". This seems to be rather than putting the cart before the horse. Surely the Green Man is a personification of nature found in folklore, just like Mother Nature. I really think the slant of the introduction needs changing to reflect this.Gymnophoria (talk) 11:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't this article about the "foliate heads" originally found in churches and other mediaeval buildings? If so, it seems in order for the lede sentence to start as it does. That doesn't mean that the "mother nature" or English folklore associations couldn't be developed; at present there's more on "Green Men outside Europe"—perhaps failing the WP:TOPIC test—than the actual provenance. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct to describe the Green Man only as "a sculpture or drawing"? 

message: Under the heading Related Characters is a reference to research which is not cited. This line in question is "Etymological research by the University of Wales into the meaning of the names of Celtic gods and goddesses shows that one Celtic deity, Viridios, has a name meaning "Green Man" in both the Celtic languages and Latin". Does anyone know where the research mentioned in the above line can be found? Wirdjos (talk) 14:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know about the research, but I can't help noticing that "vir" in Latin and "fear" in modern Irish and Scots Gaelic mean "man." Something similar could be said for "dios" and "god." That might be more of an opportunity for a play on words than valid etymology, and is nothing more than idle speculation on my part. Just plain Bill (talk) 15:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymological Citation Needed 

message: Twice corn is mentioned in association with the Egyptian God Osiris. Either citation is needed or this needs removed. Corn did not exist in Egypt until the 18th century. There are no mentions of corn in Wikipedia's Osiris article, there are no respected Egyptologists that connect Osiris with corn, and I can find no art associated with Osiris that shows anything that could be definitively identified as corn. He was indeed a god associated with crops and growth, but not maize.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raszoo (talk • contribs) 02:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside Europe 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In a post-apocalyptic southeast England (called "inland" in the narrator's idiom) Hoban's protagonist finds a carved wooden face which he calls "Greanvine". IIRC, it is described as a disgorging head, with foliage coming from the mouth. In context, it is plainly meant to be a Green Man. I could find quotes with page numbers, but hesitate to add what might be construed as original research with only a primary source. If anyone knows of scholarly commentary on this, adding a sourced paragraph to the article would be splendid. Just plain Bill (talk) 22:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Riddley Walker 

message: Starting a talk section to hash out some thoughts before editing. The article suggests in the section titled "Churches" that the green man is not a pagan symbol, or  "superficially appearing to be pagan", because he appears in churches. I'd argue this makes the initial assumption that churches categorically bar any and all pagan symbols. I'd further argue this assumption is incorrect because of the well-documented and rather expansive history of christianity adopting pagan symbols. Evergreen wreaths, gargoyles, and the triquerta to name a few. Christians themselves (some of them at least) recognize that some of their symbols have been "borrowed", to quote catholicexchange.com, from paganism. If the green man is not a pagan symbol, but instead a christian one, what is the christian meaning of the green man and how is it different from the pagan one? Eharrigan (talk) 01:53, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be aware of our policy on no original research.  Your words like "I'd argue that..." will carry little weight here, unless you can back them up with reliable published sources.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: there's no reliable published source (or any source at all) on the article itself where it states "superficially, the green man would appear to be pagan,", which is what i am taking up issue with. It is incumbent upon whoever wrote this to provide sourcing. My saying "I argue" is in refutation to an unsubstantiated claim on this article, a claim which categorically contradicts the pagan nature of the green man symbol. My claim that the green man is pagan, regardless of its appearance in churches, is a claim that does not need to be sourced, as it is already evidenced by a number of other sources already linked in the article e.g. 2, 3, and 5. Eharrigan (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Pagan? 

message: since I first started editing it 3 years ago, and it needs clean up, but not whole scale reversal of referenced content with mere addition of a single new (even if helpful) ref. Wuerzele (talk) 21:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Green man is not a mythological figure, but an architectural motif. Folklorists apparently agree on this point . If academics agree that the green man is not a mythological figure, why then include comparisons to clearly unrelated mythological figures from wildly different cultural contexts as if he is one? Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability_does_not_guarantee_inclusion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree the green man is not a mythological figure and I think that this could be carved out more clearly, as you suggest Hemiauchenia. People come to this article with all the folklore in mind, so it would be good to mention all the unrelated (Jack in the green etc) and speculative things and say they are unrelated! Other articles do this too.--Wuerzele (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

text: The oxfordreference you quoted above, by the way, is completely focused on Britain; yet the architectural motif of a foliated head is found in churches all over Europe, even though the term "green man" does not exist there (e.g. German : https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blattmaske). Also, the term green man hasnt experienced a 20th century revival outside Britain. At least I am not aware of publications about it outside Britain. So this could be carved out here as well. --Wuerzele (talk) 22:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, but the problem is that by its very nature the term "Green Man" is focused on foliate heads as they exist in British architecture, though the phenomenon of foliate heads is obviously not unique to Britain. This paper looks like a useful reference. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What about a WP:SPLIT? This article about the architectural motif, a new article about representations of mythical woodland-dwellers from all countries and periods of history.--AntientNestor (talk) 07:03, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  template placed at top of article to gather wider opinions.--AntientNestor (talk) 10:08, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it would inherently be a WP:SYNTH problem as the idea of the "green man" being a mythological figure is rejected by scholars. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

text: OK, I'm making a start in the next week or so. Going with Green man (spirit of nature)  unless anyone's got a better idea. As this article is only about the architectural symbol, it needs doing.--AntientNestor (talk) 15:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Done--AntientNestor (talk) 15:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article remains a mess...