Talk:Antin Holovaty

message: * The PMR in its English language website defines an official ceremonial coin as Golovaty. That is despite Ukrainian being one of its official langauges. ref: n image of a close-up portrait of Anton Golovaty , the ataman of the Black Sea Cossack Army, against the background of a fortress attacked by the group of Cossacks .A circling inscription “Anton Golovaty» in Cyrillic is to the left of the portrait along the edging. A circling inscription «Ataman of the Black Sea Cossack Army» in Russian is to the right of the portrait and a circling inscription “1732-1797” indicating Anton Golovaty’s life years is below the inscription “АТАМАН ЧКВ”. An inscription “Transdniester region, Cossacks’ land” in Russian written on the stylized ribbon along the edging is under the portrait and an image of the Emblem of the Black Sea Cossack Army with an inscription “1787” indicating the year of forming of the Black Sea Cossack Army is in the middle of the ribbon. . Actually this is quite nice to add to the article. --Kuban Cossack 12:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to say that this evidence is rather weak, and in other cases, it would not be enough in a naming dispute. But in this case, I could find only a very limited amount of information on both, in fact these sources provided by Kuban are most of what there is. If someone wants to move the article, please give a good explanation as to why, either by citing the naming guidelines or by finding more sources supporting the other name. TSO1D (talk) 15:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am surprised that such evidence as names on coins (!) and another obscure wikipedia is used to counter other academic sources like the Encyclopedia of Ukraine  in reference to the name of Holovaty. Please refer to WP:V as to what sources are valid in this encyclpedia. Unless there are academic sources to support Golovaty, I second the above opinion to move the article. --Hillock65 (talk) 16:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, as I said before there are not very many sources about this issue, however, at least the sources that Ezhiki mentioned above have an academic character. To use a random PMR website or a coin as a source is probably not enough to counter the other sources. So as of now, I agree, the article should be moved. TSO1D (talk) 16:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

text:  Holovaty is a significant person in Ukraine but in Russia where he is known as Golovaty he is a nobody. Just compare the Ukrainian Wikipedia article to the Russian one. KK should put his effort there. Bandurist (talk) 03:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody? I doubt that. Why is there an Anton Golovaty street in Krasnodar? He played a historical role and he is remembered for what he has done. Here is my proposal for consensus: We move the article to Anton Holovaty. Then we keep Holovaty up till 1775 and in the Taras Shevchenko part. After 1775, when the Host of Loyal Zaporozhians was formed he became known as Golovaty, and until his death we refer to him as such. In the title we do "Antin Holovaty (uk: Головатий) also known as Anton Golovaty (ru: Головатый) was ..." does this compromise suit everyone? --Kuban Cossack 12:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fining with having also known was in the introduction. However, using different names for the same person in one article (and where the issue is not even a name change but an issue of transliteration) seems a bit strange to me. So I support everything in your proposal but that part. TSO1D 13:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is about the academic and valid WP:SOURCES, which overwhelmingly point to Holovaty. Should we twist the sources to suit personal biases? Is the city of Kiev transliterated as Kyiv after 1991 in WP article? He was and is Holovaty, his name didn't change, you are free to add that some Russians spell his name differently, no one objects to this. --Hillock65 13:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no owerwhelming pointing, and the the validy is questionable. Also as pointed out to you before Kiev is an English name, Kiyev is Russian, Kyiv is Ukrainian. English name for Golovaty would be Anthony which I disagree with because it violates WP:CYR unless he is known as such. I proposed to use Golovaty because of his impact in creating one of the largest Russian Cossack Hosts. I don't see a problem with using two names in one article, that has been done before in wikipedia. --Kuban Cossack 15:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The weird thing is that despite the fact that Holvaty spent his final 5 years in what is now Russia, he would have continued to speak Ukrainian with his fellow Cossacks. Indeed, even today in the Kuban, I would estimate that 90% of the population of Kuban would pronounce his name Holovaty rather than Golovaty.Bandurist 18:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I suggest we stop this bickering, the sources speak for themselves, and there seems to be a consensus for the name change. So, let's just wait for the admin's decision. --Hillock65 20:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Exactly.  Even Kuban agreed with Holovaty.  How do we get an admin to come and make a decision? Ostap 20:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask one :)  (I can't do it because I was involved in the discussion).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It would be odd having the Russian corruption Anton Golovaty next to his older brother Pavlo Holovaty. I guess next they'll try to change his name to Golovaty because after the destruction of the Zaporozhian Sich he taken to Moscow and imprisonned and died in Russia. It would be nice to unlock the site and add the information about this monument they put up for him in Odessa, Ukraine  Bandurist 01:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm vaguely involved, although I haven't taken a stance. Would it be inappropriate if I close it? -GTBacchus(talk) 01:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do go ahead. I believe there is a consensus on this page. Read on and make your decision. --Hillock65 02:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, the page is moved. Thanks to everyone for participating in the discussion and getting this question worked out. -GTBacchus(talk) 02:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: The question still stands on particular cases. Can please draw Bandurist, who claims that the person has zero importance in Russia, to this photo gallery . --Kuban Cossack 17:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What a horrible travesty that monument is! Cossacks depicted as praising their enemy, who destroyed the Zaporozhian Sich and even forbade them to call themselves Cossacks! No comments... --Hillock65 17:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very authentic POV, like erecting a monument to an equal enemy that killed quarter of a million Poles? And an equal number of ethnic Ukrainians? Please save that for the Live Journal. Fact is, the Kuban Cossack Host had and has regiments named in her honour. --Kuban Cossack 18:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are free to pervert history any way you want, it is none of my concern. Please stick to the subject matter of this discussion and avoid posting unrelated stuff. This page is designed for issues regarding the improvement of this article not to vent one's POV. Thank you. --Hillock65 18:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, let's have a neutral observer comment on that one, I put a photo gallery of a memorial which clearly depicts that Golovaty is not "nothing" to Russia's history, you respond in exactly the same way I did, yet you call me perverted... Shame on you. Actually wrt improvement why did you carry out a complete revert of my edits, that included messing up the refs and messing up the succession box. --Kuban Cossack 18:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, for crying out loud, read what it says! I didn't call you perverted! Don't make a victim out of yourself!--Hillock65 18:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting monument. But there are a lot of errors. Three cossack leaders in cossack scalp cuts. Holovaty was called chubatyj because he never cut his hair. The blind kobzar is called Hrytsko Nechesa.  That was Poiomkin"s name in the Zaporozhian Sich before he became a nobleman. Catherine sure is skinny here in comparison to her paintings. Bandurist 04:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage of Golovaty in English

message: The text now does not agree with the title.  Can an admin unlock the article, or at least change his name in the article? Thanks, Ostap 02:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's unprotected now. I didn't notice that bit. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I support the unprotection, I disagree with the first edit that once again added a set of contradicting information and removal of refrenced sources. --Kuban Cossack 16:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  request unlock 

message: The Odessa monument image is definite 100% copyright violation. A photo of a 1990s monument cannot be pd-old. --Kuban Cossack 18:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gee, I thought you found "copyright paranoia disruptive" :) Ostap 18:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When it comes to clear violations then yes, there are things that have to be done, what I mean is the first criterion for fair use, when people begin to claim replacible, and when people attack whole licenses, such as PD-USSR. (you can find it in archives) --Kuban Cossack 18:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text:  Well if it is a violation, wait until it gets deleted. It is not for you to decide, though. --Hillock65 18:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no if! Pd-Old means 70 years after the author's death. That tag will be true after the photographer dies and 70 years pass. Moreover freedom of panorama applies here. If the original author of the image agreed to let the image be used, we need correct attribution and permission. Well if it makes you happy I'll wait for it to be deleted. It is a useful image, but it will be very short-lived. --Kuban Cossack 18:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could always file an image request for a free replacement. Someone on Wikipedia must live in Odessa. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: *Bandurist, that image already exists, and it is in the Ukraine article.  Look here: :Image:Odesa monument.JPG.  The copyright information is already there.  Cheers, Ostap 05:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks Bandurist 14:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: There seems to be quite a contradiction on his birth date:  Точная  дата  рождения Антона Андреевича окончательно не установлена. Одни историки утверждают, что А.А. Головатый родился в 1742 г., другие, среди которых и Ф.А. Щербина,  называют 1732 г. Вторая дата представляется  более достоверной,  так как в  противном случае в Запорожскую Сечь, Головатый был принят 15-тилетним, что выглядит маловероятным. Не установлена и настоящая его фамилия, известно лишь, что родился Антон Головатый на Полтавщине в селении Новые Санжары и происходил из козацкой старшинской семьи. also can someone make an article on his birthplace Novi Sanzhary, there is already one at uk wiki: Нові Санжари.--Kuban Cossack 13:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also can I please have some more detailed source information on "zaporozhtsi" refrence, since it does not say anything, and how about a biography infobox? 
The Zaporozhtsi citation is the article about Holovaty by Kvitka Osnovnianenko. It is quite interesting. Aparently Holovaty knew Kvitka Osnovnianko's father (they studied together at Mohyla) and on his way to Petersburg he would stay at their house. Kvitka Osnovnianenko would remember the songs and the gifts they had on the way back etc. An eye openning reference. Bandurist 15:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Birth date

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Was deleted at RFD without the history being preserved; since there was an old merge here, I requested an undelete to preserve the history. Here's the history from before it was deleted:
12 August 2023
   curprev 00:43, 12 August 2023‎ Duckmather talk contribs‎ 444 bytes +43‎ Updating RFD template: discussion was relisted (XFDcloser) undothank
18 June 2023
   curprev 23:57, 18 June 2023‎ Headbomb talk contribs‎ m 401 bytes +335‎ →‎top: RFD undothank Tags: AWB Removed redirect
14 July 2012
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1 December 2007
   curprev 02:46, 1 December 2007‎ GTBacchus talk contribs‎ m 28 bytes 0‎ snapping double redirect undothank
4 August 2007
   curprev 13:03, 4 August 2007‎ Kuban kazak talk contribs‎ 28 bytes −1,560‎ ←Redirected page to Anton Golovaty undothank
   curprev 08:07, 4 August 2007‎ RHaworth talk contribs‎ m 1,588 bytes +10‎ moved Anton Holavaty to Antіn Holоvaty undothank
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   curprev 01:30, 4 August 2007‎ Thijs!bot talk contribs‎ m 1,586 bytes −2‎ robot Adding: ru:Головатый, Антон Андреевич undothank
   curprev 01:29, 4 August 2007‎ Thijs!bot talk contribs‎ m 1,588 bytes +58‎ robot Adding: ru:Головатый, Антон Андреевич undothank
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   curprev 01:12, 4 August 2007‎ Bandurist talk contribs‎ m 1,532 bytes 0‎ ←Created page with 'Antin Andriyovych Holovaty (1732 - 9 (19). ІІ.1797) - (uk lan: Головатий Антін Андрійович) (ru lan: Golovaty, Anton Andreyevych) wa...' undothank
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   curprev 01:07, 4 August 2007‎ Bandurist talk contribs‎ m 1,510 bytes +1,510‎ ←Created page with 'Anton Andriyovych Holovaty (1732 - 9 (19). ІІ.1797) - Holovaty, Anton Andriyovych (uk lan: Головатий Антон Андійович) (ru lan: Golova...' thank
Cheers! Skarmory (talk • contribs) 23:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of [[Antіn Holоvaty]]