Talk:Combat shotgun

message: in one of the sections there is a large space of blank. has someone been blanking off pages? (Gooly 20:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism? 

message: I'm removing the table from this section since http://www.frfrogspad.com/ is far from being a reliable source. 
Plus I'm in the military and my primary weapon is a shotgun, and if that's all the hits they could get at 50 yards, then they obviously can't shoot or don't know how to handle the weapon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.252.4.21 (talk) 07:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effectiveness 

message: I intend to edit this article to add some information I came across while reading a book on warfare in Gallipoli (which references many other sources); it turns out that an Australian Major was using a sawn-off shotgun as a trench gun during the fighting there, and it made a "terrible mess" including taking one man's head "clean off", and it turns out the Turks submitted an appeal based on a UN convention and the Australian or British higher-ups confiscated his "toy", to which he was bitterly disappointed. So yeah just letting you know the statement that only the Germans protested is inaccurate and I will make some cited edits tomorrow when I get a chance.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.23.200 (talk) 15:47, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccuracies/omissions. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The statement about M1987 shotguns being capable of "slam firing" is factually incorrect. The cited source is also incorrect and simply having statements and opinions published by a publisher focusing on weapons/firearms/guns does not make a person a reliable source. Current "facts" that are demonstrably false by simply testing the actual firearms to see if the state "facts" are or not true doesn't meet any standard of "proof" accepted by the so-called experts who have believed in the facts despite never have personally tested them because it cannot undo decades of misinformation, published "facts" that are actually lies, and the accepted "expert" status of those that manage to have their incorrect or false statements published. Winchester 1897 shotguns can NOT be slam-fired and the major reason Winchester released the slightly redesigned 1897 only a few years after the 1893 was that the 1893 WAS capable of being slam-fired both intentionally and inadvertently. John Browning modified the design slightly and slam-firing was made a physical impossibility in the 1897 because the hammer can not and will not strike the firing pin with sufficient force to ignite the primer if it is "riding the bolt" as the bolt goes forward into battery. By definition, a "slam fire" occurs OUT OF BATTERY which is what makes it a dangerous phenomenon. 
Even with no "trigger disconnector", the hammer of an 1897 can not fall until the bolt is "in battery" and if it falls at any point prior to the bolt being in battery, it will not strike the firing pin with sufficient force to ignite the primer and the firing pin itself is not long enough to reach a "floating" cartridge only being pushed ahead of the bolt until the shell is chambered with the bolt in battery behind it. When the trigger is held to the rear, the trigger sear is held from engagement with the hammer sear but the hammer is still held reward by an internal "safety sear" that only disengages to release the hammer once the bolt is in battery. When the trigger is held rearward and the slide or "pump" is cycled, the internal movements are obviously invisible and the human eye is not fast enough to see the bolt stop its foward motion - and thus be in battery - a fraction of a second before the hammer drops. There is also a "quarter-cock notch" in the mechanism that prevents the hammer from dropping fully against the bolt even if the hammer is held to the rear intentionally by the shooter and released prior to the bolt going into battery. 
As I said, these changes were made to "correct" a non-existent "flaw" that was exposed when 1893s were intentionally or inadvertently "slam-fired" by inexperienced users attempting to duplicate "speed shooting" demonstrations made with the then-new shotguns as promotional events produced by Winchester. The demonstration shooters were both using "trick" ammo with low pressures and recoil and were allowing the trigger to reset after a shot while appearing to hold it rearward during cycling of the action and letting the forward motion of the slide mechanism and shotgun itself pull the trigger back forward against their finger to fire another cartridge. Even if their timing was off and the result was an cartridge fired "out of battery" there were no firearm failures due to the low pressures and high-quality, brand-new firearms. When inexperienced shooters loaded shotguns and particularly used shotguns previously used FOR such demonstrations with conventional, "full power" ammunition and fired it in large volumes and also unknowingly fired the then-new 2 3/4" loads in 2 1/2" chambers, the result could be a "slam fire" and a catastrophic failure since the bolt and shooter's strength were usually not capable of completely jamming in the longer cartridge to the point the bolt was fully locked forward. A catastrophic failure was therefore possible for multiple reasons in multiple situations but with the usual result being the bolt was ejected out of the receiver and into the shooter's face. 
John Browning's insistence that Winchester fix what Winchester regarded as an operator error situation by modifying the original design to incorporate both safety features to prevent slam-fires AND the ability to perform "rapid fire" shooting by holding the trigger rearward and cycling the action SAFELY resulted in the 1897 shotgun. And unlike the 1893, all 1897 shotguns have 2 3/4" chambers so the pressure spikes resulting from a 2 3/4" shell (paper cases at the time) being jammed into and fired in a 2 1/2" chamber simply could not occur. 
The article itself is factually incorrect even referring to the mechanisms within "modern" pump shotguns that prevent trigger-rearward "rapid-fire" as a "disconnector" since disconnectors are used in concealed-hammer firearms to disconnect the trigger from the hammer with the bolt or slide CLOSED so that another release mechanism trips the hammer for firing. In any repeating or semi-auto firearm disconnectors are used to prevent triggers from firing the gun altogether with the bolt or slide in battery. A magazine disconnector prevents firing without a magazine installed, for example. A "trigger safety" is another type of disconnector that prevents the actual trigger from firing the gun until a small safety lever within the trigger itself is pressed rearward to engage the trigger disconnector or more accurately trigger connector. 
The only firearms that use a "trigger disconnector" of the style its implied 1897s are flawed for lacking are SELECT-FIRE firearms capable of both semi-auto and full-auto fire. In that case, when the firearm is in semi-auto, the trigger is connected to the hammer sear at all times and "slam firing" is theoretically made impossible by a "floating" firing pin that should not be able to strike the primer with sufficient force to fire the cartridge unless the bolt is fully in battery, the cartridge is properly headspaced and the hammer falls its full travel distance to strike the rear of the floating pin. 
In full-auto "mode", the "trigger disconnector" keeps the trigger sear from engaging the hammer as it travels rearward, the hammer is instead held rearward by the auto sear and as the bolt travels back forward and into battery the bolt itself triggers the auto sear to release the hammer, allowing it to fall and strike the firing pin. Even if the trigger is partially released during the natural recoil and forward and rearward movements of the firearm firing full-auto, the trigger disconnector prevents reset until the trigger is fully released and the auto sear continues to be the only sear engaging the hammer sear as the bolt pushed it rearward and disengaging to release the hammer as the bolt travels forward into battery.
Difficulties and misunderstandings are natural and inevitable with so many different firearms and designs in existence, but the article, the author of the passage claiming 1897s can "slam fire" when only semi-auto and full-auto firearms are capable of a TRUE slam-fire and the fact 1897 itself exists because great effort and expense was put into fixing what was only a problem for inexperienced, inattentive or ignorant shooters are all true "facts" and well-known by the types of "experts" who spend the overwhelming majority of their "gun time" using, building, repairing, servicing, maintaining and handling firearms and very little time WRITING about them. I earlier stated that there are many cases of the "facts" widely and steadfastly believed and communicated by even "acknowledge experts" and "reliable sources" being completely false, and I will give another example simply to demonstrate that an "unreliable source" like the "anonymous" Wikipedia editor I am has virtually NO CHANCE of ever communicating the FACTS that automatically prove the conventional wisdom of "experts" wrong. 
Here is my example: 
In almost any and in almost every published "reliable source" of information on U.S. M1 "Garand" rifles (technically speaking there is no such thing since the U.S. military "adopted" Garand's eventual "design" after he and others made the required changes but not his original design and designated the "adopted" rifle "91st line) U.S. RIFLE (2nd line) CALIBER .30M1")_the author or speaker "aka reliable source" will claim that a fundamental "flaw" of the "M1 Garand" was/is that the rifle  can not be "topped off" once a full en-block clip is inserted and rounds have been fired from it, creating what is considered a "partial clip" or "partial magazine", and that the rifle can NOT returned to "full capacity" or a "full magazine" or "full clip" condition by adding additional loose cartridges to or inserting them into the partial clip or magazine. No doubt this completely false claim results from someone looking at the design of the rifle and the "mechanical feed" function or appearance thereof where the magazine "follower" in the rifle itself appears to be mechanically linked to and dependent on bolt-cycling as the bolt and mechanism is either manually operated by hand or automatically operated by the gas system during firing. 
Conventional wisdom appears to be that since there is no separate "follower spring" and there are some small parts involved the actually connect the follower to the OPERATING ROD SPRING and also enable the clip ejection function when the last round of an en-block is chambered and fired, then the follower itself must be "mechanically driven" BY the operating rod and gas system, which would preclude pushing it down once the rifle has chambered and fired a round from a fresh en-bloc. That is completely and totally false. The "follower" IS provided spring tension to allow it to elevate cartridges BY the operating rod spring but it at no point is every mechanically locked in any position and can be pushed downward against spring pressure to allow additional rounds to be inserted into a partial en-block just as the magazine follower of any other repeating rifle with an integral or removable magazine can be. That is considered "topping off" a firearm and the "experts" and "reliable sources" seem to unanimously agree that its impossible. I believed it impossible for quite some time until just thinking about the firearm and studying my OWN rifle and disassembling and reassembling it and finally TESTING THE CLAIM revealed to me that just as I'd already convinced myself by thinking and observing alone, I could "top off" my Garand or any other simply by treating it just like any other bolt-action rifle. 
It is a slightly different process since the "bolt latch function of the M1 Garand only locks back the bolt when there is NO en-bloc in the rifles internal magazine and no external lock button or release exists, but by using one hand to hold back the bolt with an en-bloc inserted, the other hand can be used to inert additional rounds directly into the en-bloc to "top off" the clip, magazine and rifle. That is cold hard fact and in fact at least one YouTube video exists demonstrating it, but the "experts" will still and will probably always will claim that "topping of a Garand" is impossible. Just like the "reliable source" that got his b.s. claims about Winchester 1897 "slam fires" is only considered a RELIABLE SOURCE because somebody copyrighted and published his fake "facts". 
I don't know all the Wikipedia rules about "primary sources" and "reliable sources" but I know that "original research" is NOT considered a "reliable source" so even if I made a video or got a book published with my CORRECT facts published and copyrighted, what I learned through thought and theory and experimentation that disproves the "fact" and render it a lie in EITHER CASE doesn't "count". Which seems like a pretty RIDICULOUS want to provide facts from reliable sources and create not just an "encyclopedia" but a REFERENCE PUBLICATION that should contain either PURE FACT or NOTHING with the "source" completely IRRELEVANT. The guns are what they are because that's how they were designed. That somebody or a whole "community" of somebodies believes what they hear or read instead of picking up the gun that may be in their own safe or on the bench in front of them just feet or inches away doesn't make something a "fact" and the "reliable sources" aren't sources of anything but fiction. 
And as long as Wikipedia editors are more interested in being "civil" than in being RIGHT and would rather "compromise" or "reach a consensus" than stand up and say HEY! THIS RELIABLE SOURCE/NO OWN RESEARCH THING IS BULLSH!T BECAUSE VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING EVER CREATED BY MAN IS THE RESULT OF THE ORIGINAL RELIABLE SOURCE THAT INVENTED IT USING HIS OR HER OWN ORIGINAL RESEARCH TO DO SO!, then Wikipedia will continue to be plaything for those who apparently have nothing better to do than obsess over and write about and when necessary delete the hard work and "own research" of others who DID have better things to do. 
So, there's my take on just one of MANY complete farces of encyclopedic articles on firearms. I'm sure any attempts I made to actually edit them with the truth would be "vandalism" or unacceptable because I have no reliable source to disprove a lie, since lies can not be disproved being unproven to begin with. Which brings up another interesting aspect of Wikipedia. If I publish a YouTube video of me demonstrating the operation of my M1897 Trench Gun or topping off my M1 Garand and cite and link and use those as my "primary source", are they inadmissible and unacceptable because they're "original research"? Or was my "original research" actually conducted as I read what I thought sounded like b.s. claims and did the experimenting that led to my own "discovery" of the actual facts?
That SHOULD be a good topic for what SHOULD be many pages of theoretical discussions and postulations in an attempt to reach "consensus" given the thousand-word essays supposedly intelligent, educated, sophisticated and well-spoken "editors" and "administrators" need to communicate a very simple analysis and their opinion on very innocuous things like whether or not two people with different "facts" are "edit warring" when each believes in his or her "fact" and has a "reliable source" to cite as "evidence of it". Not to mention the multi-paragraph explanations people will write to communicate what isn't an opinion at all because they made no actual decision or judgement as they "decided" to "support" or "oppose" some "community action" that requires not a VOTE but a "consensus". 
Are encyclopedias supposed to be democratic? Would Albert Einstein be able to get his articles past the Wikipedia fact firewalls as they exist today? 
Anyway, if you want to block me again for the umpteenth time simply because I don't play by the "rules" I don't think anybody ever voted on when they first started creating this "open source reference" that relies entirely on publicly-owned and PUBLISHED resources but is controlled completely by a handful of private citizens. So I guess what I'm saying is that I reject your "rules" just like you reject my research. And since my research proves facts and disproves lies and your rules result in lies being published and facts being deleted, all I have to say is I'm right and no amount of blocking or length of time is ever going to change that. 
Have a nice day, Wikipedians and especially fearless Administrators and selfless and obsessive reviewers and critics and judges of all edits all the time.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.234.100.66 (talk) 18:21, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect information on U.S. military trench shotguns 

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