Talk:Christian Zionism

message: FYI at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#zionism-israel.com_on_Zionist_history as of 1/1/09. CarolMooreDC (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI after that discussion started someone must have rebooted the search engine because suddenly dozens of uses popped up and there were no more denials it was a reliable source, at least on a case by case basis. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Working on this article now and looking quickly at the page, I think they have an ax to grind in favoring some Xian Zionist groups over others and therefore are not a reliable source for this article. CarolMooreDC (talk) 22:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Zionism-Israel.com being judged NOT WP:RS

message: The article Christian Zionism has failed to include 4 rather pertinent areas, or rather excluded those four areas to produce a POV article.
#why no mention of the first any largest Christian Zionist movement....The Crusaders...a rather large and obvious gap in the article...
#The Christian evangelical messianic movement for the redemption of the Holy land one aspect was the Templars. who ended up as a nasty bunch of racists who most certainly were not pro Jewish Zionism...not the nicest bunch of the evangelical messianic movement but probably the most well known...
#And of course the [Franciscans] in the Holy Land who seek the redemption by settlement and evangelical conversion of the Holy land to Christianity...
#The American Christian evangelicals as in the American colony of Jerusalem.
:missing areas within the article...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 04:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that that information should be included briefly in history - but only where a reliable source identifies them as "Christion Zionism." There doubtless is relevant material in Restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land and I'll check it out. However, there is no doubt this phrase is widely used and deserves its own article. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:53, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Crusades had nothing to do with Christian Zionism, as they did not seek to establish a Jewish state in the Holy Land, but an explicitly (Western) Christian one. They would have opposed anything like the modern state of Israel because that state is not founded on Christianity. In addition the Crusades were not exclusively focused on the Holy Land either (the Reconquista of Spain, which unlike the Eastern crusades was ultimately successful, is also considered part of the Crusades). Most Christian Zionists thus despise the Crusaders and everything they stood for (Read, for example, what the Armstrongites, who were among the most prominent of the Christian Zionists, had to say on the subject); anti-Catholicism (many Christian Zionists including the Armstrongites, Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye are quite strongly anti-Catholic) plays a role as well since the Crusaders were Catholic and following the Pope's orders. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 17:12, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable history presented as fact 

message: The article used the term newspaper exegesis to describe the methods used by Christian Zionists. This is an interesting term, since it accurately describes the unusual practices of several Protestant scholars, who are said to have a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other. ADM (talk) 20:41, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What ever it is, it does not have a source in this article so I have changed it to something more generally descriptive of the contents. Not necessarily final or best option. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Newspaper exegesis

message: The box on top of this page reminds us: consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information. Over next week or two I'm gong to source things that I consider most easily sourceable and remove obvious WP:Original research. Also looks like a lot of duplication in the first two history sections that needs merging, including the English section. Plus a recent theological development section. Things that may or may not be true that are questionable, controversial or don't seem critical to the article and which no one else sources will be removed.  Many but not all of those things I'll tag first as I go. So heads up! The always bold...CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Source info or it may be removed

message: I think this article may be a lost cause - if anyone wants to try to fix it, please do, or it could redirect here. Dougweller (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to clean up this one and then see if there was anything of use additional there. Otherwise merging might be a good idea. Already cleaned up relevant entry on Israel lobby in the United Kingdom. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, it's the same editor who created the CZ in the UK article that you are cleaning up afterwards. He still doesn't understand how to write and source an article. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you mentioned it, yes, it would help if he would thoroughly review WP:Policy. Including the one about discussing things in talk if you expect to have your questionable edits kept. :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Christian Zionism in the United Kingdom‎]] 

message: "Many Christian Zionists believe that the people of Israel remain part of the chosen people of God, along with the "ingrafted" Gentile Christians[Romans 11:17-24] (dual-covenant theology)." 
The citation of Romans 11:17-24 in and of itself is not a citation to dual-covenant theology.  No citation outside of this Bible verse supports this view.  In fact the verses 17-24 themselves make no reference to a  dual covenant.  Romans 11 uses the device of an olive tree.  The Jews being grafted in as natural branches of the olive tree.  There is a mention of a covenant in Romans 11:27.  The article does not mention this verse either in the context of dual-covenant theology, nor does the article mention this verse explaining the meaning of this covenant.
69.246.19.173 (talk) 20:48, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblical reference not appr 

message: I don't know if he belongs in here at all, given that he is a Mormon and Mormonism is not universally considered to be part of Christianity (some Mormons and non-Mormons have recently begun describing that faith as the "fourth Abrahamic religion"). Perhaps a separate article on Mormon Zionism would be worthwhile? It could mention historical parallels with the Mormons' own history (i. e. between Utah and the State of Israel, fleeing from persecution, etc), as these have been discussed in the literature, of course. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 06:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glenn Beck 

message: The two articles overlap with all of the content of the Restorationism article included here already. The differentiation between the 19thC and 20thC movements is tenuous, and importantly was ignored in Nahum Sokolow's seminal 1919 work "History of Zionism", in which he writes:
"In reviewing the gradual evolution of the Zionist idea over such a wide field, I could not restrict the meaning of the term " Zionism " to the Zionist Movement and Organization of the present day. I had to go back to the beginning of this idea, and to extend the meaning of "Zionism" to all aspirations and efforts tending in the same direction."
Combining the two would turn two substandard articles into one good article.
Oncenawhile (talk) 11:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been merged. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to merge Christian Restorationism into Christian Zionism 

message: There is no mention of David Lloyd George who according to himself was converted to Zionism by acetone.
http://www.balfourproject.org/lloyd-george/
Wool Bridge (talk) 00:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You may folloow that link, but you will find no mention of acetone. MrDemeanour (talk) 12:57, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Lloyd George 

message: I am surprised by the paucity of information on  William Hechler, the  Blackstone memorial,  Orde Wingate, given their considerable influence on Zionism and a number of other influential and important Christian Zionists. ‘When it came to mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the death of Theodor Herzl, it was noted by the editors of the English-language memorial volume that William Hechler would prove “not only the first, but the most constant and the most indefatigable of Herzl’s followers”.  See Paul Merkley, The Politics of Christian Zionism 1891-1948,  . Cpsoper (talk) 08:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Hechler and many others not even mentioned

message: Have added references to some prominent Protestant non-dispensationalists, before and after Darby.Cpsoper (talk) 08:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Prominent non-dispensationalists added

message: An author has removed this page from the 'parent category' 'Zionism', this needs explanation before reverting. It is arguable that Christian Zionism is the parent of Zionism, at least according to the eminent secular Israeli historian Anita Shapira (ref in intro in Zionism page).Cpsoper (talk) 18:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The author was me. For the removal, it doesn't really matter whether :Category:Christian Zionism is the parent OR the child category of :Category:Zionism. In both cases, it is redundant to classify this article in both categories, and I suppose that in both cases Christian Zionism would be the more appropriate category to classify this article into. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:26, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, Marco, but please explain why redundant? There will be enquirers who look at this question from both angles - those interested in the question from a question of Jewish and national history, and others who consider the question as a matter of theology or church policy, not to say politics - both are important perspectives, and whilst intertwined and interdependent in a most unusual way for Jewish-Christian relations (I won't expand here now on this but this article and the one on Anti-Zionism outline why), also sufficiently distinct to justify the inclusion in both categories, in my view. If you perceive I'm wrong please explain why. BW.Cpsoper (talk) 22:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: The section titled "Recent political analysis and developments" contains many dubious statements about the importance of the movement in the U.S.  I wouldn't deny these statements, if there were demographic studies or well-researched, unbiased literature to back them up:
In United States politics, Christian Zionism is important because it mobilises an important Republican constituency[citation needed]: fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants who support Israel.
How large is that specific constituency?  It's not even clear that most fundamentalist Christians or evangelical Christians are Zionists.
Almost all of this section needs citation and reads like it was written by someone how would like to overstate the significance of Christian Zionism in the U.S., whatever the case may be.  I am hesitant to remove it entirely, but what what is the alternative?
Zombiedeity (talk) 21:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it needs radical revision, to prune some rather overreaching assertions. Things are changing rapidly, many 'evangelical' bodies (not the same as fundamentalist in the US) are increasingly changing to a more hostile stance toward Israel, many of the PCA constituents and some (not all) amillennial teachers deny any Biblical role for Israel, Kim Riddlebarger, Hendriksen, Palmer Robertson, Gary Burge for example. There has also been significant representation by senior representatives of a number of large parachurch bodies: WEC, Langham PI, various Bible Societies and Missions at the Anti-Zionist Christ at the Checkpoint conference. There has been a blurring of the formerly sharp distinction with liberal churches in this as in many other areas. Cpsoper (talk) 20:34, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is wildly offensive and inaccurate to suggest that those who reject dispensationalism are "hostile toward Israel" or "liberal". Conservative Reformed Christians, Confessional Lutherans, and the entire span of Church history before 1830 held that the Christian Church is the Israel of God. Many Reformed, Lutheran, and even mainline support Israel for pragmatic reasons rather than theological reasons. And yes, conservative Reformed Christianity is growing, along with post/amillennialism and partial preterism. — Confession0791 talk 20:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize for the harsh response, but Covenant theology has been the historic position of the Christian church for centuries -- until relatively recently. Still many CT's support Israel for pragmatic reasons without the theological underpinnings associated with dispensationalism. —Confession0791 talk 03:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overstated importance of Christian Zionism in the United States? 

message: Have added a short section on CoE's support for EAPPI, and subsequent mainstream UK Jewish reaction. Cpsoper (talk) 12:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Anti-Zionist resolutions in the Anglican Church

message: I just added some citations for proponents of Christian Zionism, but as I added a Washington Post reference for Mick Huckabee, I was not entirely sure it would qualify.   In the article it talks about Huckabee's position regarding Israel and while it positively infers he is, it doesn't explicitly call him a Christian Zionist.  Given it is a bit controversial, should we create a standard by which someone can be considered a true proponent?  Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:13, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations for Proponents Section 

message: Along with some helpful changes this edit  has removed several categories, and many similar  links without explanation or discussion. This is a rather broad brush just for a tidy up. Cpsoper (talk) 21:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Please restore any Categories you feel are appropriate. Editor2020, Talk 03:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have done so for, again, BW. Cpsoper (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Tidying up

message: By evangelical Christians in the US as shown in this video by Pastor Steven Anderson: https://archive.org/details/PastorStevenAndersonMarchingToZion 41.146.35.140 (talk) 18:39, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unexpected Criticism  

message: * This source that someone just added has material quite different from the text it was attached to.  A fair report of this source would mention the author's contention that Christian Zionists are noted for their antagonism to Islam. Zerotalk 13:49, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miscellaneous comments 

message: The article is still messy, but there is more referenced text and some opinion sections have been pruned, and unsubstantiated assertions flagged. Others may disagree but I have removed the essay tag, and left the synth tag.Cpsoper (talk) 05:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Essay tag 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: King wasn't a public supporter of Zionism according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Friend  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.115.74 (talk) 18:18, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martin Luther King 

message: The adjective "prominent" is used 9 times in this article to promote the importance of different people. It is not appropriate in an encyclopedia. Nobody who was not prominent in some way should be here at all, so the adjective is not only redundant but amounts to commentary in Wikipedia's voice (including when it is an opinion copied without attribution from a source). Zerotalk 01:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  prominent fluff 

message: This article is a whitewash from start to finish. There isn't a single mention of the rapture or the Battle of Armageddon that are a key part of the thinking of many Christian Zionists. And how about this whopper:  Listen to what Jesus is Coming actually says (presentation edition, 1908), caps in original:
:  (p170)
:  (p174)
And so on. This sort of stuff is not fringe. There is even a good source in the article that makes it clear, but the source is not cited for its main point. Instead, the vision of 2/3 of Jews being killed (other than a small fraction that converted in time) and the rest finally accepting Christ is hidden behind the phrase "inevitable future events". How pathetic. Zerotalk 13:20, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  How do you know that the Rapture or Armageddon inspired political involvement on behalf of the Jews by all Christian Zionists? It certainly is a prominent part of much dispensationalist teaching, as you've cited, but that hardly amount to evidence for motivation. You have quoted Blackstone's writings and the inaccuracy needs correcting or clarifying, I haven't examined this. As Lewis and others have documented, Christian Zionists and Jewish belivers in Jesus were often involved in political activism on behalf of the rights of rabbinic Jews, for example in the Damascus Blood Libel and later in the pogroms in ways that had nothing to do with the Lord Jesus' second coming.Cpsoper (talk) 20:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  ( Sorry, I didn't see your reply until now.) Please read this page which is not the best possible source but there are plenty of good sources that say much the same thing. There is no single basis to all of Christian Zionism, but the Rapture and Armageddon was and is a common part of that basis and that should be mentioned. (I didn't say "all Christian Zionists"; I said it is not fringe.) At the moment it is not mentioned even in cases such as Blackstone where it was a central aspect. Your last sentences ignore human complexity. Despite what Blackstone wrote (as I quoted above), it is absolutely clear from his writings that he was touched by the plight of the Jews he met in Palestine and wanted to help them materially. To a Christian fundamentalist like him, there is no contradiction. Armageddon wasn't something he wished upon the Jews, but something that his religious beliefs told him was going to happen no matter what. Zerotalk 03:17, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   Sorry I didn't alert you to the edit. I agree with much you've written, Armageddon, Gog and Magog and their appalling descriptions do loom large in Christian thought, as it has from Patristic times with Hippolytus and Irenaeus. It's important to distinguish between sensationalist fringe writers and mainstream spokesmen, and as you hint it's not surprising to see a Muslim primary editor apparently cherry picking some of the more alarming streams of expression for effect. I know of Dyer, though regarded him as a minor & rather eccentric voice, but never read of Michael Evans before sampling your quote. Most Christian sources I read don't advocate war, however strongly they support Israel, and take pleasure in peace, even if it spoils their hermeneutic, though there certainly are exceptions. It'd be easy to cite the Brotherhood as representative of Al Azhar or ISIS as spokesmen for Islamists worldwide, and just as erroneous. There are also Christian Zionists, who are liberal, not evangelical, though diminishing in number, Merkley (ref in the article) gives many accounts, and some who are Roman Catholic too. CUFI and the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem are fairly widely regarded sources for the evangelical streams, though both have prominent critics and prominent criticisms of their continuity with historical antecedents, named in the article. I agree reference to apocalyptic events is appropriate, with good secondary sources, but better to use academic sources, without an overtly tendentious Antizionistic or Antiamerican bias, would it aid proper study to caricature a whole movement? My time is limited, but happy to comment and add as able. Cpsoper (talk) 21:34, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The  repeated statements in Christian exponents  about a future Jewish return to Israel from the 19th century onwards certainly, cannot be read by most Jews as anything other than deeply condescending- to use an oxymoron, as sniffish philosemitism, whose declared aims of moving (their) Jews from Europe were props to some self-serving Christian religious purpose and, esp. in English texts, as a means of using 'repatriated' puppets to further England's imperial outreach. This is there from Shaftesbury onwards, and this article is quite deficient in its exiguous use of such abundant sources. Nishidani (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  William Blackstone and other nonsense 

message: I  two sources purportedly supporting the Mennonite publication of an article condemning Christian Zionism, that do not mention Mennonites, Christians or Christian Zionism. I suspect  added these sources (, ) to support the phrase "what is called the ongoing illegal seizure of additional Palestinian lands by Israeli militants", but as the text makes clear that this is the viewpoint of the Mennonite article and not a statement of fact by Wikipedia, it is not necessary to cite sources to support it independently. I am tagging the sources but not removing them outright, because the contributing editor is, to my knowledge, currently unable to edit this page. Ibadibam (talk) 05:56, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mennonite sources