Talk:East London line

message: I think it would be a good to say something about the early locos and rollingstock that worked this line, such as The Terriers, The D1s, and later the Buckjumpers. To this end I've just added a little mention of the famous Terriers (after all Stroudley designed them specifically for London suburban work). Would anyone like to add more, perhaps about Stroudley's coachs, or the various other locos that worked the line in its steam days? Skekayuk 11:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Early Rollingstock

message: Intro to the article claims -
: Its history is connected with that of six other railway companies since its opening in 1865.
Very next line -
: The ELR was originally opened in 1869,
And yet none of the stations appear to have opened until 1884.
What's the truth here?
: The opening dates (in versions up to today) appear to have been taken from sources describing the history of the line as part of the Underground network, they are the dates on which Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railway services first used those stations. This is the normal way of describing extensions of the Underground by taking over lines built by "main line" railways but as this article is about the East London line past and future, it should tell the whole story from the beginning. I am about to post some corrections. Gazzzz (talk) 21:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening Date?! 

message: interesting news, but I'm not sure of accuracy, so don't treat it as gospel... 193.62.111.10 09:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting stuff... I don't understand why they'd need to shut the entire line though, given that the work would be done at the far ends? -- ChrisO 10:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had already always assumed that once it became a NR line it would be franchised out, like all the others. Interesting that it will join the North London Line franchise though, definately suggests a move to orbirail MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 10:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The closure of the entire line is needed to upgrade signaling to NR standards. I think they also need to lay new track and change the electrification from four rail to three (with the return current passing through the running rails). Wilmot1 17:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Privatisation

message: The article currently says:
:In phase 2, the line will be extended to run parallel to the North London Line, going through Canonbury and terminating at Highbury & Islington'
I think this is wrong Every piece of literature I can find says "along", not "parallel", and some of the proposed eventual service patterns imply the existing NLL track will be used. --88.110.189.21
:I can't see how it could possibly run parallel to the NLL, considering it's a two-line track in a rather confined space! -- ChrisO 13:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an intermediate; some extra track may need to be constructed to allow overtaking of freight trains. Some parts are already three-track; these parts may need to be extended or a fourth track added along others. However, in either case, ELL trains will still share with NLL services. --Dave A 15:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NLL: along or parallel? 

message: :It will become the first-ever line to "secede" from the London Underground 
what about the Northern City Line?  Morwen - Talk 10:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern City Line

message: I'm going to take a guess that most of the editors here are Londoners, in which case you might get that paper from the mayor. Its got a double page spread towards the middle about the East London Line. Just letting you know. RHB 20:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Londoner

message: The article says the ELL will close from 22 December 2007, and the linked PDF confirms this. But the posters in Canada Water Tube station say it closes from 23 December, not 22. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.240.75.194 (talk) 10:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has caused confusion elsewhere too!!! If I recall correctly the last train will run on 22nd December and the 23rd will be thee first day with no trains!! Wilmot1 17:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closure Date 

message: A leaflet on the forthcoming closure and upgrade is presently (April 2007) available from stations on the ELL.
The links to the "official" pages do not work. Jackiespeel 18:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Leaflets and links

message: According to today's thelondonpaper the ELL is going to be incorporated into a "London Overground" along with the North London Line. Jackiespeel 18:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is also my understanding, If you read anything produced by BBCJV [Balfor Beety Corillian Joint Venture] (East London Line Project team) this seems to confirm. SkippyUK 12:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Future of the ELL

message: The following text from the main article does not sound correct...
"Because of an inability to extend the platforms at the existing Wapping and Rotherhithe stations and make them fully compliant with current rail safety regulations, it was thought that they would be closed, but on 18 August 2004 Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, announced that both stations will remain open, at least when Phase 1 of the project opens by June 2010."
AFAIK the problem is the width of these platforms, the restricted access from the steps, and the lack of secondary exit - even for emergency use. Length is not a problem, not at all. I say this because when there were through services longer trains than now were run. Plus all stations except Canada Water have unused sections of platforms which can be made available for longer trains. The real problem (AIUI) is that the newest station (Canada Water) was built to only accept 4 car trains. Given that the new trains will be longer than the present trains so this will be a very serious capacity constraint. Since Canada Water is such an important interchange station so unless it is going to be lengthened during the closure (not something I've heard being proposed) so potentially it will seriously restrict future train operations.
btw, according to something I read extra emergency exits *are* to be installed at Wapping (using a former entrance which was closed) and at Rotherhithe (using a former smoke ventilation air duct from when steam freight trains used the line). Alas, I do not recall where I read this, otherwise I'd post a link.
In the meantime this discussion thread (which spreads over 2 pages) might be of interest.
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/browse_thread/thread/32c5dc896838fddd/0e1b78f28cf34418?lnk=raot#0e1b78f28cf34418
Citytransport.info (talk) 00:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wapping, Rotherhithe Short Platforms and Canada Water

message: I'm slightly concerned that the articles haven't been updated. It needs to be done pretty soon. Oh, and merry Christmas. Traintoots (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updating the articles 

message: I think this article should be moved to East London Railway and should be written in the style of: 
The East London Railway is a railway currently under construction in London, England and due to open in 2010. The railway is effectively an extension of the East London line of the London Underground which closed on 22 December 2007 and ceased to form part of the Underground as of that date. Once complete, the East London Railway will form a component of the London Overground concession of the National Rail network. The railway was originally opened in 1869 as the East London Railway and runs under the Thames through the Thames Tunnel, opened in 1843.
This may not be the exact wording, just indicative. My thinking is that the East London line has ceased to exist and what exists now is the East London Railway under construction. Naturally the renamed article will contain all the history both during the LU period and before. MRSC • Talk 19:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I should have made clearer that East London Railway is the name that Transport for London have selected for the line, not my own invention. The renaming is intended to reflect official usage.      MRSC • Talk 21:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Notwithstanding the above, "East London Railway" would look very out of place next to the other current and future LO routes: West London Line, North London Line, South London Lines, Gospel Oak to Barking Line, Watford DC Lines.  I don't believe the common name principle would support "Railway" either.  90.203.45.214 (talk) 21:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. But they are known collectively by TfL as the North London Railway. MRSC • Talk 19:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Thinking of ELR as an "extension" of ELL probably isn't a good idea.  It would make more sense IMO to think of LU's "ELL" as a service operated on the tracks of the "ELR", and that the "ELR" is being extended.  I use the quotes, as I prefer the term "Railway" to refer to original companies - in this case, an "East London Railway company" formed for the building of the line, probably owned mostly by the larger companies that operated along it.  I also consider here that we have a significant proportion of our articles about physical railways (as opposed to the railway companies or modern service patterns) are titled with "Line" (capital L) rather than "Railway" - e.g. Marston Vale Line, Ebbw Valley Line, Cross-City Line, etc. which suggests to me that "Railway" would not necessarily be an entirely suitable suffix.  Of course, given that LUL referred to this as the "East London line" (lower-case l), it may not be entirely unsuitable either.  Tentatively opposing the move, though recommend capitalising the L in "Line" to match our practice with other parts of the rail network to which it will then belong, as opposed to that of our London Underground line articles.  90.203.45.214 (talk) 20:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Whilst East London Railway may be the correct *formal* name in use by TfL's press office at the present time I don't see it surviving into actual usage when every other TfL service in London is a "Line", however by 201x it could have all changed yet again, so I'll survive either way! --AlisonW (talk) 00:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm unsure why we should resist the change of name, or put a time delay on it. As it is, numerous articles that refer to this one use East London Railway i.e. the line after use by LU. East London line/East London Line is still there as a redirect after the move. MRSC • Talk 19:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: I think this article should be merged with the overgound one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.89.19 (talk) 21:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with Overground 

message: I don't think the reason/s for the change are clearly made. What are the differences between passenger operations on "Network Rail" and "Underground" lines? 220.253.43.91 (talk) 13:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the shift from Underground to Overground? 

message: It is May 2008 when I write this.  Does anybody know anything about a North Battersea station (on the East London Line Extension phase 2) and where it might be located?  I heard this week that they were thinking of putting in a new station where Culvert Road goes under the train tracks.  There is also a foot bridge going over the train tracks to link up with Eversleigh Road.  This would seem to be a logical place to put a station/the station.  Does anybody know anything?  Also, what is the latest on when the extension to Clapham Junction (one stop further) will take place?  In time for the Olympics?  Thanks in advance.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.146.0 (talk) 10:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Battersea station??? 

message: I also writing this in May 2008.  I was told today that the Phase 2 extension might not dead-end exactly in the current Clapham Junction, but for whatever reason (Clapham already too crowded?, not enough platform space, etc?), that planners were considering having it dead-end about a hundred yards earlier, across Falcon Road, behind the ASDA superstore.  There is certainly disused area there.  I was told that they were planning to have an "arcade" (whatever that is) built there along with what would be the new platform.  I would guess that there would be an above-the-road walkway from Clapham Junction over Falcon Road to the new "extension platform" and arcade (just guessing).  Anybody know anything about this?  Thanks in advance.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.146.0 (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Who on earth told you this? The plan would to reopen Platform 1, which is on the north side of Platform 2, the one used by existing London Overground services. This is much cheaper and easier than creating a brand new platform elsewhere. The track to get to it isn't used by very many services at all (almost no passenger services), so there's no problem with reaching it. --Mr Thant (talk) 21:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Ending at Clapham Junction??? 

message: This has probably come up before, but: shouldn't the article be called East London Railway. That is what certain sources are telling us is going to be the new name when the railway reopens. I know that the East London line (as a historical railway) still needs an article, although there's really no protocol for this: no modern LU line has closed before. Any thoughts, anyone? Kevin Steinhardt (talk) 14:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Asked and answered (and decided) further up this page! Like the North London Line, er Railway, it will be called a "Line" and in keeping with the normal WP practice of using the common name where appropriate, we should continue to do so here. --AlisonW (talk) 15:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers. Kevin Steinhardt (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  East London line, or East London Railway? 

message: TfL has detailed rules about lettering which, I think, include that LU lines have a lowercase 'l' (contrary to NR usage). This article has a capital 'L' and a redirect from the small 'l' version. Shouldn't it be moved and the redirect reversed?  Or is LO different?--SilasW (talk) 11:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It will reopen as a non-Underground line, so "L" in the title should be capitalised. best, Sunil060902 (talk) 15:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "should" does not follow from its being "non-Underground". TfL webpages show both cases with an apparent preference for "l" except for adjectival use, as in East London Line projects (this particular railway's projects) opposed to East London line projects (line projects in East London). It's all up to what TfL decrees, they try for consistency (see their rules about frames around posters for example) but they nod sometimes, see www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/investorrelations/4426.aspx where they wrote of the North London Railway, meaning not the tracks of The North London Railway company but just about everything which was to become London Overground.--SilasW (talk) 17:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, point taken, but think North London Line. best, Sunil060902 (talk) 00:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

text: No matter what re-use is made of the route, the LU line has a lower case "ell". (mainline Lines are upper case). The article is replete with an uninhibited scattering of wrong cases which I cannot change at this moment. I caught a few and have moved the article and its talk.--SilasW (talk) 11:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  First letter of "line" 

message: Sorry to pick the scab off this but ELL and ELR are separate entities and should have separate articles not a false redirect.
The ELR was a railway company even if jointly owned and even if other nearby lines were maybe later grouped under its umbrella.
The ELL, as with other lines, has been a possibly time-variant, possibly operator-variant length of track or service. It was a London Underground line (coloured, as the article says, orange on the tube map) now closed for works to make a longer London Overground ELL. 
Some WP articles have mistakenly used "ELR" for "ELL" when mentioning connections.--SilasW (talk) 10:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can see TfL, which is pernickety in such matters, tries to use "East London line" for the former Underground line (as for all LU lines) and "East London Line" for the line in gestation (as for all other LO lines). "East London Railway" was a different indepedent entity. Each of the three should have its own article. Things with added "extension" should not be.--SilasW (talk) 16:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The confusion arose because TfL initially referred to the new route as "the extended East London line" (pre-LO), then "East London Railway" (IIRC both pre- and post- LO launch) and only recently have they reverted to "East London Line[/line]".  So ELR was used for some time to refer to the new route as well as the historic company. In other words, TfL took a long time to decide what to call the darn thing - who knows, even with months to open, they might even change it again! (unlikely though)--Peeky44 What's on your mind? 00:19, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ELL & ELR 

message: I think this article needs to be trimmed especially in respect of the Extensions section as there is a separate article available. Please see proposal in Talk:East London line extension
Ivanberti (talk) 10:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *OK, so I have now been through the article and have striped out considerable amounts of overlap with this article and the ELL Extension article and have also moved any relevant new content to that article leaving only a summary here. PeterEastern (talk) 08:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Rationalisation between this and the East London line extension article

message: After several journeys on the route, it appears to me that St Mary's Curve no longer can be accessed from the East London Line. Is that really the case? best, Sunil060902 (talk) 11:55, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that the tunnel telephone contact wires have been extended across the throat of the junction. . The stanchions are visible from the train, with something that looked like panelling (but I couldn't really see it) in between. I hadn't realised that they still used the tunnel telephone. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:34, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  St Mary's Curve 

message: Just wondering if anyone knows why the succession template isn't working properly. It shows the station, the next and previous but not the terminus/direction elements (:Template:S-line/LOG right/East London and :Template:S-line/LOG left/East London).- J.Logan`t: 17:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession 

message: I happened  across this long and technical PDF entitled the East London Line Reborn - Major Project Report which has several pages covering bridge construction, track design, and renovation of various historic structures while the ELL was being turned into the Overground.  —Sladen (talk) 09:58, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fresh sources 

message: According to the lead of West Croydon station "The East London line, part of London Overground, was extended to the station on 23 May 2010."  Does this article need to be updated to reflect this extension? -- Timberframe (talk) 10:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you read East London Line#East London Line extension? --David Biddulph (talk) 10:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

text: It could perhaps to with some clarification about when it is talking about the East London Line (the trackwork between New Cross/Gate and Shoreditch), and when it is talking about the East London Line (the present service between Croydon/Crystal Palace/New Cross and Highbury & Islington).  —Sladen (talk) 10:49, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Croydon station 

message: I feel the article would be better if there were an actual date given for the last Underground train - I can see it's 2007, and from LU incident data I know it was in December, but someone must have recorded the last train.
Also there are a lot of dead links in this article. -mattbuck (Talk) 08:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You could try rescuing them out of the Internet Archive, or just tag them as s. Jc86035 (talk) Use to reply to me 16:02, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates and dead links 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've read both this article and the article on the extension - which really strikes me as significantly overlapping this one, but that's a whole other story.  I was curious since the various wiki diagrams on each of the articles doesn't show all of the sidings and such if someone can describe or show in a map where all of the various railways enter and overlap each other in stuff in the junction between the East and South London lines?  For instance, the diagrams show the South Eastern, Brighton and Greenwich lines for the national companies, and then the East and South lines for TfL, but the diagram on the Phase 1 extension, specifically, is quite confusing. 
As far as I can tell, New Cross Gate is on the Brighton/East line, New Cross is on the South Eastern/East line, the Greenwich line comes into the junction from Deptford, the East line comes in from the north, South Bermondsey is on the South Eastern/South line...but what I'm unsure of is how much do the South Eastern, Brighton and Greenwich lines overlap?  Do all three of these continue to London Bridge after they meet in the junction?  Do any of these continue beyond London Bridge? --Criticalthinker (talk) 10:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Does this help? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:06, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because that's the old configuration with the old names.  I'm talking about if someone could label an aerial view of the junction with the names of the current lines, or at least describe it. --Criticalthinker (talk) 10:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  East and South London line junction 

message: I just spotted what I suppose is an error in the Route Map: West Croydon station is marked with both the Tramlink and the Underground Roundel. But Underground doesn't go there, does it? 2A0A:A545:15C8:0:F584:FD99:A503:D7BD (talk) 00:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a London Buses roundel. That wouldn't be wrong in this case but I don't think we should place these roundels at every station with a bus stop somewhere nearby. --PhiH (talk) 07:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm talking about the Route map at the bottom of the Info box. And as the Line template below that shows a Buses Roundel, I guess it's supposed to be one on the Map. (But it's definitely an Underground one in the Map.) – And yes, I concur that a Buses Roundel doesn't necessarily need to be added in. 2A0A:A545:15C8:0:98CE:6B65:5058:D833 (talk) 02:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, yes, that is correct. Unfortunately the file is a PNG so it's not easy to fix that if you don't have the original file. --PhiH (talk) 06:34, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Croydon connections (Route Map) 

message: I've just changed the closure date of the St.Mary's Curve from 1941 to 1939. There are a number of sources that cite the 1941 date, but it turns out that's actually the ending of a service from Uxbridge to Barking. The primary sources for this are the Metropolitan Line Working Timetables and they are clear on the 1939 date. I've cited various places referring to these WTTs. 82.68.24.148 (talk) 22:36, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  St.Mary's Curve closure date 

message: Sorry, the changeset comment in my edit of 31 August 2022 was supposed to be "Reference added". I guess I am still not good enough. Minoa (talk) 18:28, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Watford DC line which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 15:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: :"The current London Overground service is 16 trains per hour in each direction. Northbound trains terminate at Highbury & Islington or Dalston Junction (8tph each). Southbound trains terminate at  West Croydon, Crystal Palace, New Cross and Clapham Junction (4tph each)."
These numbers aren't adding up. I'm confused. Criticalthinker (talk) 06:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Services