Wikipedia talk:Village pump (proposals)/Sidebar redesign/Archive 03

message: The following is a complete, in order list of what lives in the monobook toolbox.  One items is disabled entirely on Wikipedia.  Others are very rarely seen (such as the RSS feeds that appear only on Special:Recentchanges and a few other places).
*What links here
*Related changes
*trackbacklink - disabled on Wikipedia
*rss atom - for pages that that have feeds
*User contributions
*Block user
*Email user
*Upload
*Special pages
*Printable version
*Permanent link
*Cite this page - an extension, must come after all normal items
*... any future extensions
The order of these is determined in PHP and would require a developer to change.  Further, such a change would reorder all toolboxes on Mediawiki sites using Monobook (not just the English Wikipedia).  Such changes might be made, given a good argument, but they are less likely to be made than changes which only affect the English Wikipedia.  Similarly, moving items from navigation to the toolbox is unlikely because of the effects on others sites and skins (e.g. does every mediawiki want a "random articles" link in their toolbox, probably not).  I'd suggest you presume you can't move between the main sidebar and the toolbox unless a developer explicitly agrees to implement some work around, because it is very nontrivial to do that in a way that won't mess up other sites/skins.  Dragons flight 01:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe a workaround would be simply to suppress (or switch off) some toolbar links for the English Wikipedia, and then duplicate them somewhere else? For example, the Special:Upload and Special:Specialpages links are just links, nothing else. They are not page specific, and could easily be implemented in another box, like the one that Rob says is possible to insert above the toolbox. Then you just switch them off in the toolbox, and you have effectively moved the links. Carcharoth 04:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Hi Rob, nice to meet you.  What about:
* Having 2 links on a line in a menu box?
--Nexus Seven 12:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to distract from the more important query above (about 2 links on a line), but the two "toolbox" links I suggested suppressing are not context sensitive (unless I'm mis-understanding what Rob said). Special:Upload and Special:Specialpages do not change according to page you arrive from. I think this is what others are calling "global" links. The context-sensitive links are the "What links here", "Related changes", "Printable version", "Permanent link" and "Cite this article". Can someone pin down the terminology and give these two sort of links names: (1) Just a static link; (2) Link that dynamically changes according to what page you are on. Carcharoth 14:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the two words you are searching for are "fixed" and "contextual", respectively. --DavidHOzAu 05:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toolbox 

message: One of the objectives we were trying to achieve here was making the link line on the Main Page obsolete.  The line between the header and the first two article boxes.  The line with the following links on it:  
Overview ·  Searching · Editing · Questions · Help	
Categories · Featured content · A–Z index
That's why the headings became linked (to help make room for these).  If this line is completely covered in the sidebar, then it can be removed, which someone insisted would improve the Main Page's design.  The only link we are missing from above is Searching.
--Nexus Seven 04:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The link line on the Main Page 

message: Use  or  to reference pages on wikipedia in any sidebar tests.  /w/index.php?title= could break one day.  In theory, however,  should always reference Article's history. I changed version 15 to this.  You will find most major templates use this, like  (aka )  See Magic words on meta for info about the fullurl.  I'm not up to speed on if this matters when its implemented or not, but it can't hurt to use a fully working external linking format. --Kevin_b_er 06:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links that point to wikipedia (technical) 

message: To portlet or not to portlet... that is the question. Would the search box be best off having its own box, or should it remain in the navigation box?
Why it should have its own portlet (add your own reasons or rationale here, or respond to others):
*Increases clarity
*Catches the eye sooner rather than later
*Removes the need for a horizontal ruler, which some (many?) people find ugly
*Search navigation is different from "browsing" navigation; this warrants its own portlet (Carcharoth)
*Removing its portlet will be too big a change for most people (Carcharoth)
Why it should not have its own portlet:
*Increases compactness
*It is a navigational element, so why should it not be in "navigation"?
*Removes visual clutter by having fewer portlets
So what is your call? —msikma <user_talk:msikma> 10:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think leave it in its own box. It is a navigational element, but it should be distinguished from the browsing links. Browsing is a very different mindset to searching. Also, the general principle to not change established practice too much. People are used to links like "Community portal", "What links here" and the layout and placement of the search box. Some change is good, but too much will disorientate people. Carcharoth 11:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is interesting that you note it will be too big a change for a lot of people. I've added those reasons to the lists. I agree too: I think the search bar should be in its own portlet. —msikma <user_talk:msikma> 11:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Leave in its own box/portlet. --Quiddity·(talk) 20:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Search portlet 

message: Should be "Wikipedia help" rather than "Wikipedia Help" as far as I am concerned. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume that this was a typo.  I've corrected it.  —David Levy 04:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "Help" with big "H"? 

message: I and many other users still use this resolution. It's not a matter of lack of good monitor or video card, It's a matter of preference. I have a new 19" LCD and I still use 800x600, it's just easier for me to read.
Wikipedia's width looks like it's designed for 800x600, and it's good to keep it this way. To this point, I'd please like to request that whatever the new version is, the search box (together with its buttons) should be visible without having to scroll down. People use the search box more often than they use all other links put together, and I don't want to have to scroll down every time I visit a new page.
In other words, if the text size and structure design of the sidebar does not change, and "search" is in a separate box, then "navigation" (the only section above "search" should not have more than 9 items. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.119.191.2 (talk • contribs) .
:I totally agree. This was brought up at the very beginning, and is being kept in mind :) --Quiddity·(talk) 20:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  800x600 

message: Were it not so narrow, I would suggest placing the article TOC in the sidebar, perhaps under the 'navigation' box. Has this ever been considered before? thepromenader 09:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia's been around for very long, so I think that the chance of someone having suggested that before is very realistic. On-topic, I'd say that it is completely against the nature of this site design to do such a thing. The content and navigational elements have been clearly separated, and placing the TOC in such a location would completely break that model. Also, like you mentioned, it's too narrow anyway. —msikma <user_talk:msikma> 13:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I knew the idea could never fly, but thanks for your consideration all the same. Perhaps I should open a TOC discussion. Thanks for the reply, and Cheers. thepromenader 15:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TOC in sidebar