Talk:Amin al-Husseini/Archive 3

message: The introduction is not accurate and due to this, poved.
Indeed :
* introduction could make people think Husayni had stopped his activity after 1945 while he is the most known for its activity during 1948 war;
&& He is well known for being an antisemite, colaborator with the nazis, he came up with the idea to kill the jews in the holyland and exported it to Germany - we should add all this as well. Zeq 12:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Suggest an alternative. Hornplease 09:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have written this on your talk page. Alithien 10:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I remove the tag. Alithien 10:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pov flag 

message: Fascism made certain inroads in the 1930s among secular elements in Egypt, Syria and Iraq. It should be recalled that Haj Amin al Husseini the Mufti of Jerusalem spent the war years as Hitler's guest in Berlin. But in retrospect there are doubts with regard to the depth of Haj Amin's religiosity. He requested for instance the bombing of Jerusalem by the German air force. It is unlikely that a truly pious Muslim would have acted this way.
"The origins of facism: Islamic Facism, Islamophobia, Antisemitism", Walter Laqueur, Oxford University Press, 25.10.2006  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kitrus (talk • contribs). 
:I think it is more a pov from Laqueur on Islam and religiosity than on Al-Husseini.
:His point is less that Mufti was not pious than people that would bomb a city are not good Muslim.
:Alithien 08:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Walter Laqueur]] on Al-Husayni's (lack of) religiosity 

message: It looks like someone really did not like the image of the Mufti and Hitelr Zeq 13:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. I don't know how to get it back and who deleted it. Alithien 18:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The file was hosted on the Wikimedia Commons, but the uploader could never prove his assertion of "having permission", so it was deleted as a fair use violation.  You could try again here, but given the image's history, it'd have a pretty high hurdle to meet in order to remain, given its past issues. Tarc 19:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it was hosted on commons, it is not strange it was deleted. Other will soon follow. Fair use is not authorized on commons. Alithien 06:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: *What you think should be fair use does mean that it actually is fair use.  It is a messy, ugly subject on the Wikipedia right now, as images are being deleted en masse across the spectrum.  If you want to dive in, then head on over to WP:NONFREE. Tarc 14:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no "cabale" against some images. All wiki has forbidden fair use and on commons they have started a chase against any image that is not 100% free. They go too far but I will not try to put me in front of the administrators group performing this job. THey don't discuss much and block very fast. Alithien 19:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images deleted 

message: Would the following sentence be relevant for the introduction ?
:Until today, Al-Husayni has been seen as a hero by the palestinian nationalist movement and pictured as a virulent antisemite by Israeli historiography.
Alithien 15:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal that could "close the case" ? 

message: :"Afterwards, he lost most of his remaining political influence and died in 1974."
That's a major oversimplification at best.  Non-Arab governments weren't really interested in anything he had to say after 1949, but he still remained the undisputed single most publicly-prominent leading Palestinian Arab political personality down to 1964 (when Nasser elevated Ahmed Shuqeiri to a position of leadership). AnonMoos 02:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is possible but then the information should be first added in the article... Alithien 06:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-war influence

message: why do people who don't read the article's of anything serious about the subject matter insist on making edits? i think this edit is an error.
"Greater Syria was to include territory now occupied by Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel" -  
this is from the article, obviously, there's room to expand, but if you don't know the material don't have the right source, why force false information in? JaakobouChalk Talk 00:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i'm still contesting this, but i'll take my time before i collect proper citations for evidence and represent my reservation. JaakobouChalk Talk 11:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ian is an editor in good standing in Middle Eastern related articles, and from what I have seen is quite knowledgeable on these subjects.  These are obviously contentious issues, but accusing long-standing editors of not knowing anything about it or of inserting false information just because their views happen to differ from your own is not helpful.  I suggest you reexamine your attitude here. Tarc 12:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: some editing to tone down the language, thank you for the serious comment you had a good point. JaakobouChalk Talk 14:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: A source of what exactly ? On what do you complain precisely ? I only read 10 books about that war and there is no problem to discuss about the ambitions of Abdallah on Great Syria but this article is about Al-Husseini. What is your point ! Alithien 16:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: this revert is unreferenced. if you have a good reference for it, then our argument would probably end. JaakobouChalk Talk 22:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: What is the reasoning for the :Category:Palestinian terrorist incidents in Europe add?  I am not seeing a fit here at all.
Tarc 21:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This must be a mistake. Alithien 17:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  odd category addition 

message: A flag was added at the top of this talk page to warn people to discuss here any modification of the article before they proceed to this. Zeq, could you please respect this policy (5th request) ? Alithien 06:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warning flags at the beginning of the article 

message: The introduction must reflect the relevance of each information with its due weight. This is currently the case. Alithien 14:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of relevance 

message: RFC template corrected to use actual section name. DMcMPO11AAUK/Talk/Contribs 01:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: While the RFC is specifically about the lead of this article, I would like to point out an issue that should be of concern to both parties in this disagreement: While the article quotes many people about what they thought of the Mufti, al-Husayni is himself never quoted.  The only POV relevant to this article is the POV of al-Husayni, and it is never represented.  From the little I know of the man, I know that he spoke extensively, was never reticent or apologetic about saying what he thought, and would certainly want any biographical article about him to use his own words as much as possible. Was he antisemitic, or only anti-Zionist? Let the man speak for himself, and let the readers decide.
I personally have a problem with the term "antisemitic".  I know that in common usage it has come to mean anti-Jewish, but in this context I find it odd, since al-Husayni was first and foremost a Semite.
*note by Zeq: The fact that Arabs are semit has nothing to do with the term "anti-semite". Antisemitic is being against the jews. Was Husseinin against the jews ? I think the answer is self evident. Zeq 12:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC Comment

message: It was very difficult to believe that, in spite of its own doubts, to which M. Van Rees had just referred, and despite the delicate manner in which those doubts had been expressed, the Commission had been able to conclude that there had been no premeditation or organisation of the disturbances on the part of the Arab leaders. It was even more surprising that the Commission should have extended this conclusion to cover the Head of the Supreme Moslem Council, the Grand Mufti Haj Amin El Husseini, referred to in several quarters as one of the principal organisers of these disturbances.
On page 71 of its report, the Commission stated that the Mufti had been implicated in the troubles which had occurred in the month of April 1920. The accused had been condemned
in his absence by the Military Court to a very severe term of imprisonment. The Commission also quoted a letter dated August 22nd, 1929, on page 75 of its report inciting the Arabs in unequivocable terms to take part in the attacks on the Jews which were to begin on the following day. The Commission observed in this connection (page 76) that this incitement to attack the Jews had been wrongly attributed to the Mufti. It had confined itself, however, to that declaration and had refrained from stating whether the origin of the
letter quoted had been made the object of serious enquiry.
On the other hand, the Commission noted on page 77 that the Mufti had not scrupled to
bear false witness. The Commission, however, had drawn no conclusion from this.
Account should also be taken of two facts which M. Van Rees thought particularly
significant.
According to a secret letter from the Chief of Police at Jerusalem dated August 23rd, 1929, a facsimile of which had been forwarded to the Permanent Mandates Commission,3/ a black list had been drawn up as a result of a conference of police officials held on July 2nd, that was to say, a little before the outbreak of the disturbance. The first name on that list was that of Haj Amin El Husseini, the Grand Mufti.
In the British Parliament, the attention of the Government had been drawn to the fact
that the Mufti had, on April 17th, 1930, sent a letter to his colleague Sheikh Mustapha Ghalaïni, President of the Moslem Council at Beirut, urging him to incite the Arabs in Syria to rebel against the French authorities.
Zeq 12:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More quotes from the British report