Talk:1966 FIFA World Cup final

message: Did the royal wedding or queen's jubilee or something overtake it as the most watched event? must've done by now  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.212.193 (talk) 11:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlikely it will be overtaken since viewing figures are a lot less now than they used to be. There were only two TV channels back then compared to hundreds now.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 08:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Most Watched

message: Moved per consensus.  --Pkchan 13:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move for consistency 

message: I'm finding it hard to cite that many people consider the fourth goal controversial. Wouldn't it come under the (admittedly slippery) category of common sense, when viewed alongside the relevant rule that I already quoted? FWIW I have always heard other Scots regard it as controversial; of course, you may not regard Scots as neutrals in this instance! --Guinnog 10:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard of anyone moaning about the last goal. So I'm not suprised you can't find a cite for it, and so the text should be changed or removed. Jooler 13:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: OK. --Guinnog 14:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I suppose you are talking to me, as it was me who wrote that. Which POV are you accusing me of trying to push, exactly? --Guinnog 22:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would rather not get into a slanging match over this. I hadn't even looked at the edit history. I'll depart and let others decide. Jooler 22:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored the info after an IP editor deleted it with an abusive edit summary. The controversy about the third and fourth goals seems not only straightforward but well-referenced to me. Anybody disagree? I'd rather argue it out here than get into an edit war. Thanks --Guinnog 12:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok my problem with the article is that you describe the game which is fine and then you add the "Controversial third and fourth England goals" paragraph which is IMO totally out of order. My problem is not about saying that refereeing mistakes were made. It's the way you seem to be stressing that they were made intentionally (This has definetly never been proven and is at the very least a POV. If it took an Oxford University computer study to determine that the ball hadn't crossed the line then it is absolutely possible that the referee made a mistake in "good faith", the fact that Roger Hunt stopped playing must have contributed to the mistake) and in England's favour (letting the game continue when fans had come onto the pitch was not in anybody's favour, right England scored but the german defenders continued to play, this goal isn't even disputed by german fans). Also if you are going to mention the controversial decisions then you should add the free kick that lead to Germany's second goal. That was an absolutely scandalous decision (to award it). Plus the ball hit a german player's hand before going in (which is just as controversial). If you are going to mention controversial moments you should mention them all not only the ones in "England's favour". I would be satisfied with the article if you moved the part about the Oxford University study to the "Extra time" section and deleted the "Controversial third and fourth England goals" paragraph (the bit about the 4th goal being controversial is already in the "Extra time" section anyway). Most of the content of the article is correct (and I do not dispute it) it's the way it is presented that is dishonest. Also the bits that go along the lines of "in Germany it is commonly believed..." have got nothing to do on Wikipedia.
Thanks for your considered and sensible response. I'll have a think about your suggestions towards improving the article. I may copy them to the article's discussion page as well, so that others can join the discussion. That's how things are improved here in my experience. Thanks again.--Guinnog 16:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Please then name me a few games where the match has been allowed to continue during a pitch invasion. --Guinnog 15:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: So why did you revert the article then? I agree it's beside the point what happened once in an entirely different sport. The laws of football are entirely clear and unambiguous, as the article says. Please don't remove verifiable information from it again. --Guinnog 21:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I thought it was obvious. The "controversial" free kick is an everyday run-of-the-mill we-wuz-robbed incident, such as occurs in almost every football match. England's third and fourth goals were both apparently scored in flagrant breach of the laws of the game. Or, to put it simply, one is notable and verifiable (per WP:V), and one isn't. --Guinnog 13:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: See the laws of the game then. --Guinnog 19:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And as I also said before, if you think the rule is unclear, maybe you can provide a list of a few other major football matches where play has continued during an invasion. I changed the wording though, to give a more neutral appearance. What do you think? --Guinnog 09:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: It seems pretty clear to me. --Guinnog 11:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that I have never heard anyone ever before complain about the 4th goal being "controversial", I would say that the emphasis given to its "controversy" in this article counts as original research. Forget whether it was within the rules or not, the point is is it "controversial"? Has it ever been a sore point over which there has been as much debate as the third goal? If there is no substantial evidence of a controversy arising from the goal, then it is by definition not controversial. Jooler 12:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Also the suggestion seems to be that as soon as the first person put a foot onto the pitch the Ref should have blown up. Well he didn't, and I doubt that any Ref ever has. Jooler 12:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see that suggestion in the article. I would have thought that the straightforward reference to the rule that the ref didn't enforce on the day was evidence enough for controversy, but I will try to find a more specific reference to the controversy. --Guinnog 12:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Law says "stops, suspends or terminates the match because of outside interference of any kind;" - the key word is "interference". - Whether a member of the crowd on the pitch is interferring with play is open to interpretation, but the article says "the laws of the game state that in such circumstances, the game has to be stopped". Jooler 12:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Especially a few seconbds before the final whistle. They key thing here though is about the so-called "controversy". Did the Germans complain about it after the game? Without any evidence to say that they did I can't see how it can be called controversial. Jooler 17:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Jooler, you are looking for a controversy, and you have one now: stop pushing your POV, and don't try again to delete the section on the circumstances of the fourth goal. -- Matthead discuß!     O       10:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Where's the evidence? Jooler 10:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Excuse me - Please find a cited reference for controversy and please amend your tone. I have avoided being dragged into dispute on this page for months, and since I first raised the issue in June (after Guinnog said he couldn't find any citations for such a controversy) no-one has been able to come up with any evidence and several people have objected to the words. Before I deleted it, the para had been considerably watered down (not by me I hasnten to add) so that it said "it is commonly believed that in the spirit of the game the goal was fair. Few Germans dispute the validity of the 4th goal" - that's practically spitting distance from saying there is no controversy. If YOU think that there is controversy over the goal but cannot provide any citations them I am afraid that it is you who are pushing a POV and promoting original research.  Jooler 10:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You want evidence for a controversy? You are the controversy, trying to whitewash the very "lucky" circumstances of England's only WC win. Apart from that, there is no controversy, as it is not disputed that people were on the field. I do not have to prove this fact, you do have to disprove it if you want to delete the section. There is a whole Wikipedia article (They think it's all over) on the issue, Yahoo mentions it, but you try to delete this fact! Is it in the spirit of the game that English hooligans can do in Wembley as they please, and noone is allowed to talk about it? The English media should have paid more attention to it, maybe that would have prevented Heysel Stadium disaster and Hillsborough disaster. There was no point for the German team and the media to make a fuss about the fourth goal, as the third (non) goal had been the deciding factor anyway. Germany had to attack and score an equaliser now, and this opened opportunities for the English, but they couldn't score in 9 minutes with only 11 men on the field. In comparison, Italy was much quicker in nailing the coffin during in the 2006 semifinal. The end of the game was anything but proper, and this fact will not be forgotten nor deleted from Wikipedia articles. Besides, Germans have played in seven World Cup finals, more than any other nation, winning three and losing three fair and square, with the 1966 game being the odd one out. Germans are not as bad losers as the Argentinians, who started to fight after they had lost the 2006 quarterfinal. The 1966 circumstances will remain recorded for posterity. End of discussion. -- Matthead discuß!     O       15:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Matt. Please try to remain calm. I'm a little alarmed that you have decided to rant about hooliganism and Heysel Stadium in response here. There were people on the pitch and Jeff Hurst scored a goal. That in itself does not make a controversy. Did anyone go up to the Ref and complain about the goal? Did the German FA make a protest to FIFA? Did the German media report that the goal should not stand? Did any German player subsequently say in an interview that the goal should have been disallowed? Was there ever been any kind of protest by anyone whatsoever as to the validity of the goal? If the answer to all of these is no then there is no controversy. If the answer to all of these questions is no and you still maintain that there is controversy and the word controversy should be used in relation to the goal then I assert you are generating the controversy and on Wikipedia that amounts to original research. I have absolutely no problem with stating that the goal was scored when people were on the pitch. Everyone in England knows that and as you state we even have an article on it. But I have a major problem with you insisting that those facts alone make it a controversy. BTW the words "The Referee stops, suspends or terminates the match because of outside interference of any kind" are taken from the notes to Law 5 of the current LOTG. Unless someone can prove that these words were the same as used in the LOTG for the 1966 World Cup I don't see how you can justify their use in this article. Jooler 16:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad the article is how it is particularly with regard to this issue. I'm late to the party, but even in 1966, referees were expected to apply Law 18 (Common Sense) and interference has always been taken with that mindset. Unless an outside entity is endangering a player or in the middle of play, you don't stop the game. Forget people and replace them with a dog, if you wouldn't stop play for a dog just running through the pitch, you wouldn't for a person either. I believe those exact words were in the LOTG at the time, there have been few changes over the years in the actual wording. More in interpretations and figure updates. Here is a decent summary of the changes over the years. However, even if those words were in the LOTG, despite what many people think, good referees have always tried to apply common sense and Dienst was the best at the time, that's why he got the final.--Littleman_TAMU (talk) 06:27, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversial third and fourth goals

message: This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it.  Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed.  I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy.  In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright.  If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally.  Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 06:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  YouTube links 

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --22:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:GB World Cup Overprint Stamp.jpg

message: I have removed the reference to Joao Havelange's accusations of match fixing, as there is a general consensus that Goal.com is not a reliable source, and also that Havelange's comments are heavily biased (he seems to think that the only tournaments that were fixed were ones that Brazil didn't win!) – PeeJay 13:58, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joao Havelange 

message: I have no idea how to make pictures on here, but every source I've ever read, and the classic England side on Pro-Evo claims the "Wingless Wonders" as a 4-4-2 formation, not a 4-3-3 formation, the 4-3-3 formation was very common back then. The modern useage of the word "winger" in England is very different to how it is round the world, and how it as in England back then. Nowadays, in England it is used for wide midfielders, rather than wide forwards. It should be more like a modern day diamond formation, but with not so much as a gap between Charlton and Ball/Peters.
Here are just a few sources saying so:
http://www.fifa.com/newscentre/news/newsid=510253.html
http://www.englandcaps.co.uk/AlfRamsey19631974.html
http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/pages/fame/Inductees/siralframsey.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Midfielder
The current picture shows England lining up as a 4-3-3 as follows:
              Banks
Cohen  J Charlton  Moore  Wilson
   Stiles  B Charlton  Peters
      Ball   Hurst   Hunt
But it should be a 4-4-2 more like this:
              Banks
Cohen    J Charlton  Moore  Wilson
              Stiles
       Ball             Peters
            B Charlton
          Hurst   Hunt  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MIR17 (talk • contribs) 14:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was me. God knows what the guy who made the line-up image was thinking though. I mean, the positions were all noted down for him, so why he decided to fabricate his own formations, god only knows. – PeeJay 21:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  England's Wingless Wonder Formation 

message: Just bought the book The Importance of Being Trivial and a factoid says that if the match would have ended 2-2 after 120 minutes the game would have been decided by the toss of a coin. There were several European Cup ties settled that way during the 60s so its a distinct possiblity, however the article says there would have been a replay. Anyone with the match programme or similar source that could clarify? EDIT: perhaps it would have been the replay that would have been decided by coin toss?
Seedybob2 (talk) 20:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What were the rules for a drawn match after 120 mins?

message: Schnellinger's hand never touched the ball in the 90th minute.
The third goal never was a.
And the fourth goal also was irregular.
If someone red this article he may coul think that England nearly won by "4-1" or something like that. That Students say "6cm left for a goal" cannot be... . So Schnellinger's "hand-ball" wasn't controversial too and during the last goal were lots of people on the field.
So I think this article needs to be edited!!!
The best is to wtach this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvxVGMOgmcU 
82.149.182.151 (talk) 17:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The thruth and "wrong article" 

message: As an American I have a personal recollection that would be a worthwhile addition to this article, if someone can verify the details.
I watched the 1966 final in the U.S. on a live satellite feed. I believe it was televised by ABC as part of their "Wide World of Sports" show. As I recall, the significance of this is that it was the first time a sporting event was carried live via satellite on American television. In addition it was the first time a World Cup match was ever shown on American television. What made this memorable for me (I was in high school at the time and had never before seen a soccer match) was that when the game went into extra time, ABC switched to its regularly scheduled programming! As it was later explained in the media, ABC had only purchased satellite time for a regulation 90 minutes of game time. Since no World Cup final had ever gone into extra time, they had not bothered to make (or perhaps could not afford) contingency plans. The result was that "Wide World of Sports" abruptly went off the air after England tied the score 2-2, leaving the audience hanging. In an era when soccer was on the radar screen of very few Americans, I was unable to learn how the Final turned out until seeing the result in the next day's newspaper.
Simdav (talk) 17:06, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  U.S. Telecast of the 1966 Final 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.thefa.com/England/SeniorTeam/History/Postings/2003/09/19772.htm
** In 1966 FIFA World Cup Final on 2011-05-25 03:55:41, 404 Not Found
** In 1966 FIFA World Cup Final on 2011-06-06 13:19:40, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 13:19, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.fifa.com/en/laws/Laws10_01.htm
** In Ghost goal on 2011-03-22 05:26:56, 404 Not Found
** In 1966 FIFA World Cup Final on 2011-05-25 03:55:35, 404 Not Found
** In 1966 FIFA World Cup Final on 2011-06-06 13:19:42, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 2 

message: Hi. There has never been a country named West Germany, i know it was colloquial language in foreign media to call the Federal Republic of Germany "West Germany", but this usage of words is surely no phrasing worthy of an encyclopaedic article, and it also lacks understanding of German history. Since disclosure seems necessary here: I'm from Germany, born in the German Democratic Republic or "East Germany" that is. I will however change "West Germany" to "Germany", because since 1900 until today, the governing body that has declared to represent all Germans in the DFB, the exact organisation that fielded the 1966-team, and the country and its institutions are the same as today, since from the eastern territories that joined the Federal Republic of Germany in 1990 no institutions or laws were inherited. And in the 1966-team - as well as in every other German lineup - men from the eastern territories of Germany were eligible to play, if only they were able to leave the then comunist country. In conclusion: Country is the same, governing body is the same, players eligible the same, name should be the same, and i think nobody thinks the Federal Republic of Germany should be called "West Germany" today. I hope nobody disagrees with this change, but if so, feel invited to join this discussion-posting. Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 00:18, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your arguments, but most sources refer to the team that took part in the 1966 World Cup Final as West Germany. You may view this as incorrect, but it does serve to remove ambiguity, as "Germany" (read in a modern context) could refer to either West Germany or East Germany. Referring to "West Germany" merely removes confusion. – PeeJay 09:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Even now the 66 match is still in the media in the UK - and still refered to as West Germany. Agathoclea (talk) 09:32, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm quite sure, that in 1966 all papers simply referred to Germany.Henrig (talk) 10:10, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Both were used. The comentary on the video I found (colour version shown in cinemas back then) refers to West Germany but later says "Germans supporters" Agathoclea (talk) 11:13, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Too long... But what happened in 1990 was that the former Deutche Demokratiche Republik, DDR (G.D.R. / East Germany) became a part of the Bundesrepublik Deutchland. Today's German nation equals Bundesrepublik Deutchland (just larger). The unformal labels "West Germany" / "East Germany" were very common i various languages until 1990. Boeing720 (talk) 02:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe as East Germany and West Germany were separate sovereign states, it behoves any good historian to recognise the partition that then existed. All the German players were residents of the West, the Iron Curtain was then in force. The German team lined up under the Federal Republic's flag.Cloptonson (talk) 18:09, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germany / West Germany 

message: Way too much British bias is at wikipedia. Time to start cleaning this garbage up.
:Please remember verifiability from good sources when making changes. Statements like 'everyone knows' are unhelpful.--Egghead06 (talk) 11:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This from the guy who demands sources that are littered all over the wikipedia's very own pages? That oxford study has been posted for ages and you know full well it existed. Wikipedia is not a place for your POV pushing waysWhatzinaname (talk) 18:58, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please remember this. Editing is supposed to be fun and something we want to do, not a battle full of accusations and name-calling.--Egghead06 (talk) 06:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  pretty funny when you compare "the hand of god" situation to this wiki

message: It's absolutely disguting this behavior is tolerated on wikipedia. The video evidence clearly shows no handball ever occurred. There are tons of video edits of this game and the various aspects of it  such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvxVGMOgmcU which easily shows no handball occurring. repeating a lie over and over does not make a lie true, nor should wikipedia tolerate blatantly false British propaganda on this site. Any other further fairytales will likewise be removedWhatzinaname (talk) 17:02, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  nonsense about a handball Schnellinger

message: In the describing of the match, I don't think what later technical measuring says really belong. If the Germans protested at the time, that could be noted. But it counted as a goal then, and still does. The referee thought so, and that's a part of the rules of the game. Hence it was a goal ! 
I suggest a separate section for the long time aftermath (within this article, but outside the Match summary). There it can be twisted from every possible angle (but this also applies to Maradonna's first goal in the 1986 quarterfinal). There's always an element of possible human errors - of which offside or not, perhaps is the most common. But England did win this final fair and square by the rules - at the time as well as in the history of Football ! Boeing720 (talk) 02:03, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not like as if West-German chancellor Ludwig Erhard officially declared, "If you don't nullify the two goals, we'll begin bombing London in five minutes." But it was a huge debate in the West-German public, media, and even politics at the time. In fact so much so that West-German President Heinrich Lübke tried to calm down his countrymen by making a public statement that West-Germans should accept that it had been counted as a goal, even if they did personally disagree that it truly was a goal. Even just this plea for acceptance by Lübke was a very unpopular move in the eyes of the West-German public and was considered to be due to his progressive cerebral sclerosis (dementia). --2003:EF:170D:4531:F072:C816:6101:3458 (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "no goal" - not inside the Match summary 

message: What does misheaded mean in this case:
"After 12 minutes, Sigfried Held sent a cross into the English penalty area which Ray Wilson misheaded to Helmut Haller, who got his shot on target."
Google's references generally lead back to this article directly, or indirectly or to casual use in documentation. Stifynsemons (talk) 03:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I would surmise that it's the heading equivalent of "miskicked", where you attempt to head the ball but it goes in a different direction to that which would appear to have been intended. – PeeJay 09:11, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of misheaded 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:1930 FIFA World Cup Final which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 14:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: A German player, possibly Karl Heinz Schnellinger, was offside. Stop the video [3]  at 1 minute and 13 seconds in and, clear as day, the German player at the far post is, according to the offside Law as it stood in 1966, a good 2 yards offside. I have a still of it but copy/paste from my laptop isn't an option. Hence the video uploaded.  
 MadAmster (talk) 14:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't matter. Your observations are counted as original research and would not be admissible on here. Has the offside been reported in any reliable sources? – PeeJay 16:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germany's last gasp equaliser - Offside.