Talk:Circumcision/Archive 16

message: 1.  The main article is too long, but potential medical benefits are listed and detailed as though they are particularly relevant to the decision to circ.  They are not, but they are detailed again in the medical aspects main article.  They are listed again in the CPS statement.
The following sections should be summarized in the main (circ) topic, and then detailed in the "main article" (Medical analysis of circumcision) should be combined with the main (medical aspects) article ... 4.2 HIV 4.2.1 Studies 4.2.2 Methodology 4.3 HPV 4.4 hygiene 4.5 Infectious and chronic conditions 4.6 Penile cancer 4.7 Phimosis and paraphimosis 4.8 Urinary tract infections.
2.  The medical association opinions have been edited to reflect their full (unbiased) statements, hopefuly not ... but watch it be reverted.  I hope the current verson makes quote accurate, and removes biased edits of the actual text.TipPt 15:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the article length, there was a consensus a few talk archives back to develop this page fully, and THEN spin-off sections like medical to the proper articles, as it was too daunting to try and fix them all. So now, this article looks humongous, but it will overwrite much of its daughter articles, and be reduced, once it has been properly vetted. -- Avi 15:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully, thank you.  In the meantime though the same information is added again (again) in the CPS statement.TipPt 15:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV added 

message: Possibly some of the literature coming out of this conference needs to be addressed. I should think that it's all quotable for Wikipedia purposes. Stephen Lewis of the UN has suggested that getting as many African men circumcised as possible and as soon as possible is a vital first step in the fight against HIV/AIDS. I wonder if there is any literature coming out of that conference to the contrary.Masalai 07:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recently concluded HIV/AIDS conference in Toronto

message: Please compare these two sections.  One is forced by Nand and Jakew, but contains edited (to be biased) quoted text.  My version is unedited, and is therefore not biased.
Jakew calls it NPOV ... but mine is ALL from the text, unedited!TipPt 16:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  We shouldn't edit quotes to become biased. 

message: Is there something we can add to this article on the foreskins of non-human mammals?  Is there a literature on the subject? Would be interestiing to know if all these medical "advantages" of circumcision in humans are observed in other mammals or not. How is it that mammals can be perfectly healthy and uncircumcised? Is there something different about the human penis from a medical viewpoint? Are there any recorded instances of zoo animals needing a circumcision for medical reasons? bunix 11:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question, Bunzil.  Anybody? --Nigelj 18:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I recall reading a report about the circumcision of bulls. I do not however, remember where I read it or what it concluded. As for the difference between a human penis and that of a non human, the prepuce of a human may or may not retract during an erection or intercourse, hence the name foreskin; the prepuce of an animal must retract during erections and during intercourse. Basically the only time a penis might require circumcision is because there is scarring to the preputial sphincter, causing permanent phimosis. More conservative treatments exist for all other indications. I would say that the important difference here is that humans *like* cutting off parts(or all) of each others genitals. Christopher 04:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mammalian Foreskins

message: ===Hygiene===
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics 1975 statement "A program of education leading to continuing good personal hygiene would offer all the advantages of circumcision without the attendant surgical risk."   Studies in Denmark indirectly suggest that "good hygiene with regular washing may be just as effective at preventing the diseases treated by circumcision.”.  One researcher concludes that access to clean water and regular washing “should all but eliminate the risk for foreskin-related medical problems that will require circumcision.” 
Circumcision reduces the amount of smegma produced by the male. Smegma is a combination of exfoliated epithelial cells, transudated skin oils, and moisture that can be left to accumulate under the foreskin of males and within the female vulva area. It has a characteristic strong odor and taste, and is common to all mammals—male and female. While smegma is generally not believed to be harmful to health, the strong odour may be considered to be a nuisance or give the impression of a lack of hygiene. In rare cases, accumulating smegma may help cause balanitis.TipPt 19:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  And onto hygiene (adding a paragraph, and "be left to")   

message: According to the American Academy of Pediatrics 1975 statement "A program of education leading to continuing good personal hygiene would offer all the advantages of circumcision without the attendant surgical risk."   Studies in Denmark indirectly suggest that "good hygiene with regular washing may be just as effective at preventing the diseases treated by circumcision.”.  One researcher concludes that access to clean water and regular washing “should all but eliminate the risk for foreskin-related medical problems that will require circumcision.” 
Circumcision reduces the amount of smegma produced by the male. Smegma is a combination of exfoliated epithelial cells, transudated skin oils, and moisture that can be left to accumulate under the foreskin of males and within the female vulva area. It has a characteristic strong odor and taste, and is common to all mammals—male and female. While smegma is generally not believed to be harmful to health, the strong odour may be considered to be a nuisance or give the impression of a lack of hygiene. In rare cases, accumulating smegma may help cause balanitis.TipPt 19:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hygiene

message: But I was at a coctail party Sunday night ... met this lively educated Brit lady.  I was careful ... "are Brits and Americans the same in bed?" ... little bias.  Her answer was essentially:
American men are faster (sooner and quicker when they do) to penetrate, frantic when they do, and seem to struggle for pleasure, relative to British men.  She volunteered that it might be the lost prepuce (that's what they call it).  Only then did I talk about this circ topic.TipPt 00:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not that anyone cares... 

message: "In 28 percent of our pediatric population undergoing elective circumcision we have demonstrated a previously undescribed ventral chordee of the glans, the result of a tethering effect of an unusually prominent frenulum ... Twenty of the 70 boys (28%) demonstrated a ventral glandular tilt (glandular chordee) due to an unusually prominent frenulum ... Persistent frenular chordee after circumcision may result in deformity of the penis on erection making sexual intercourse difficult or uncomfortable."
AS. Griffin and RL. Kroovand, Frenular chordee: implications and treatment, Urology 1990 Feb;35(2):133-4
So, frenectomy is quite common
(the frenulum is torn from the corona by the application of the bell, the remnant is removed by the operator at the end of the circ)
Frenectomy can be avoided if the surgeon observes the frenulum before applying the bell, and performs a frenoplasty if the above is evidenced.  The circ will then be performed without complication (accidental tears of the frenulum is the primary cause of beeding)TipPt 14:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frequency of frenectomy