Talk:Polyamory/Archive 2

message: DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between June 2005 and January 2006. Earlier discussion is in Talk:Polyamory/Archive1.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Polyamory/Archive3. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. --Calair 01:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

message: I see Calair that you're very open to having the POV pointed out which I appreciate.  I made some edits here because this section also was definitely written from a pro-poly POV defending against the criticism, rather than a neutral perspective.  I think the section still needs some work and this is actually my first contribution to Wikipedia but I may give it another polish. 
Note that I made the edit before creating a username, but you can definitely contact me about the last change to that section.  Thanks!
-Brian mp30dancer
: Looks reasonable. I think it might be possible to tighten up the wording a bit, but the sense of it is good. --Calair 00:53, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing POV to the "Perceived Rates of Failure" Section =

message: Every single polyamourous person I know is an annoying bastard. Should this be somehow noted?
:See explanation at BoF. --Calair 12:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Annoying Bastards

message: I took the liberty of archiving old content on this page. All conversations from older than about 6 months ago are on Talk:Polyamory/Archive1. Kit 21:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Archiving old content

message: So far as I knew, Robert A. Heinlein was decidedly monogamous despite poly-like features of his fiction. Does he really belong in the list? (Note: an anon just deleted him from the list and was reverted, thus my bringing this up.)  — Saxifrage | ☎ 21:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The comment on the edit where it was added by Baylink  was "Heinlein's been outed formally by Spider in the For Us: The Living intro". I don't have it to check, but maybe somebody here does? --Calair 22:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  My apologies; I just noticed this.  My copy's at home; I'll dig it out tonight.--Baylink 00:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem! Wikipedia doesn't have to always be running at the speed of thought to get useful work done. :-)  — Saxifrage | ☎ 06:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  I was worng.  It was Heinlein scholar Robert James, Ph.D., who wrote the *afterword* to _For_Us_, who outs him.  I don't have the book in the office, so I can't offer an exact quote today, but it's in the context of comparing the book's "public and private sphere" concept to RAH's life, noting that he and Leslyn were the epitome of "moral rectitude" in public, but had an "open marriage" in private.  That's as close as we're going to get, I rather suspect, and while not all poly is "open marriage", I think it's safe to call all open marriage poly, to some degree, at least.--Baylink 17:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me. Thanks for looking this up! --Calair 05:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heinlein 

message: According to several informations I found, the following people probably acted either polyamorous or quite close to it:
Virginia Woolf, Bertrand Russel,  Vita Sackville-West, Harold Nicolson, Clive Bell, Vanessa Bell, Duncan Grant, John Maynard Keynes, Ottoline Morrell, Phillip Morell, Adrian Stephen, David Garnett, Dora Carrington
Sources:
Cite from Bloomsbury Group:
:          " The members strongly rejected the Victorian and Edwardian eras' strictures on religious, artistic, social, and sexual issues, although, as amongst others Angelica Garnett argues       in her autobiographical book Deceived by Kindness (), they never came completely free from these.
:[ ... ]
:The group certainly acted as a kind of safe haven for many        of its gay, lesbian and/or bisexual members: also, almost as    a rule, Bloomsberries had relations with more than one        partner, mostly with partners of both sexes."
::Looks reasonable, and that second cite specifically mentions some domestic triads/vees. If three partners are sharing one home without compulsion that's pretty good evidence for informed consent. Added the Bloomsbury Group en masse. --Calair 23:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[ Bloomsbury Group]] 

message: Seems to have had four families with four different women, and seven extramarital childs. I have the following source which does not discloses whether any of his partners was aware of this and gave consent.
: Charles A. Lindbergh notes in connection with one of those relationships that "Lindbergh had an affair with a woman 24 years his junior, the German hat maker Brigitte Hesshaimer. They had three children together: Dyrk (born 1958), Astrid (born 1960), and David (born 1967). The two managed to keep the affair completely secret; even the children did not know the true identity of their father, whom they met sporadically when he came to visit." This article indicates that Lindbergh's legitimate grandchildren agreed to a DNA test to confirm that the Hesshaimers were related to them, which suggests that they hadn't already been told. These things don't rule out the possibility of a consensual poly relationship, but they don't support it either. --Calair 23:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Charles A. Lindbergh]] 

message: Has been reported to have had numerous affiars and a long-term lover, Anne Pingeot, with which he had a child. It has been reported that she and his wife knew about each other. However, I did not find information that his wife gave consent to the relationship.
: Yeah, I wondered whether we should list Mitterand too. IIRC both Pingeot and Mrs. Mitterand attended his funeral, which suggests that the relationship was at least tacitly recognised. But as you say, hard to know whether his wife agreed to the arrangement or just tolerated it; may well have been a genuine poly relationship, but in the absence of more evidence we should probably be conservative on who we list. --Calair 23:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mitterand|François Mitterrand]] 

message: A user recently added CT Butler, founder of Food Not Bombs, without citation. However, a search for "CT Butler food not bombs polyamory" on Google easily turned up this reference. IMHO Food Not Bombs is a notable organization and it is interesting to know the founder is both public about poly and sees it as a political statement as well. Therefore I think he merits inclusion here. Kit 13:28, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  CT Butler 

message: ====Pretty sure:====
* Bertrand Russell, Mathematican,  Constance Malleson and Miles Malleson
* Vita Sackville-West, Harold Nicolson, Diplomat, and Violet Trefusis
*  E. Nesbit, Hubert Bland, und George Bernard Shaw
* Etty Hillesum, author of a nearly mystic diary, killed 1943 in Auschwitz, and Julius Spier, Psychochirologist, Source:  An interrupted life: the Diaries of Etty Hillesum 1941-1943 (translated by Arnold Pomerans, New York, 1983)
* Book listed in Resources for Triads "Three in Love : Ménages à Trois from Ancient to Modern Times", by Barbara and Michael Foster and Letha Hadady reviews famous ménages à trois in history. They have a pretty broad definition of the term, which literally means "household of three." The authors are a long-term triad themselves. The book covers, among many others, Alexandre Dumas, Casanova, Friedrich Nietzche, Salvador Dali, Anais Nin, Henry Miller, Voltaire, Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt, George Bernard Shaw, Pablo Picasso, Emile Zola, and Greta Garbo. It seems we're in good company!
* William Wilkie Collins, Caroline Graves, and Martha Rudd
: Sackville-West, Nicholson, and Nesbit are already in the article. We need to be wary about including ménages à trois, because a lot of them were forms of 'tolerated cheating' that would not be considered 'polyamorous' by modern standards. For instance, my understanding is that Eleanor Roosevelt was very unhappy about FDR's affair with Lucy Mercer; AFAIK, Eleanor & Franklin's relationship was more of a political partnership than a romantic one by the time Ms. Hickok came on the scene, and I'm not aware of FDR's ever okaying her relationship with Eleanor. Wilkie Collins was on the list at one stage but I removed him for similar reasons (see discussion elsewhere on this page). --Calair 11:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the authors of the book themselves should be added to the list? Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 11:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Poly Candidates 

message: * Bertrand Russell, Mathematican,  Constance Malleson and Miles Malleson
* Vita Sackville-West, Harold Nicolson, Diplomat, and Violet Trefusis
*  E. Nesbit, Hubert Bland, und George Bernard Shaw
* Etty Hillesum, author of a nearly mystic diary, killed 1943 in Auschwitz, and Julius Spier, Psychochirologist, Source:  An interrupted life: the Diaries of Etty Hillesum 1941-1943 (translated by Arnold Pomerans, New York, 1983)
* Book listed in Resources for Triads "Three in Love : Ménages à Trois from Ancient to Modern Times", by Barbara and Michael Foster and Letha Hadady reviews famous ménages à trois in history. They have a pretty broad definition of the term, which literally means "household of three." The authors are a long-term triad themselves. The book covers, among many others, Alexandre Dumas, Casanova, Friedrich Nietzche, Salvador Dali, Anais Nin, Henry Miller, Voltaire, Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt, George Bernard Shaw, Pablo Picasso, Emile Zola, and Greta Garbo. It seems we're in good company!
* William Wilkie Collins, Caroline Graves, and Martha Rudd
: Sackville-West, Nicholson, and Nesbit are already in the article. We need to be wary about including ménages à trois, because a lot of them were forms of 'tolerated cheating' that would not be considered 'polyamorous' by modern standards. For instance, my understanding is that Eleanor Roosevelt was very unhappy about FDR's affair with Lucy Mercer; AFAIK, Eleanor & Franklin's relationship was more of a political partnership than a romantic one by the time Ms. Hickok came on the scene, and I'm not aware of FDR's ever okaying her relationship with Eleanor. Wilkie Collins was on the list at one stage but I removed him for similar reasons (see discussion elsewhere on this page). --Calair 11:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the authors of the book themselves should be added to the list? Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 11:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pretty sure:

message: * Franz Hessel, Henri-Pierre Roché, and Helen Grund. Source (not seen): Manfred Flügge: "Gesprungene Liebe : Die wahre Geschichte zu 'Jules und Jim'". 1. Aufl. Aufbau-Taschenbuch-Verl., 1996. 
* Bertolt Brecht, German playwright has been mentioned
* Carol Queen, sex radical, sexologist
--84.137.161.211 02:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not completely sure: 

message: It appears the NPOV issues has been cleared up... It appears settled, and a finished discussion. I am going to remove the tag, feel free to comment here.
Sethie 18:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV?

message: The RFC issue is cleared up, the controversial piece has been removed, the discussion finished... so I am going to remove the RFC link here.
Sethie 18:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: There is currently a debate about whether the word sapiosexual has enough notability to merit an entry in this encyclopedia. It is currently up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sapiosexual and the debate is quite close. As this is a word many polys use to self-identify I thought some of the editors of this entry might want to get in on the debate. Kit 23:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Sapiosexual]] on AfD 

message: A user from the 66.3.224.* range has been adding what I feel is an excessive number of external links. Wikipedia:Is not a links directory -- see Wikipedia:External links for more. Links in articles should be only to the largest, most useful and comprehensive sources for information on the topic. Although some of the links 66.3.224 added have been useful (see the ones I left in the article), the handful of links we would most want our visitors to read. As such, I do not believe links to primarily commercial pages (poly matchmaker or loving more), individual Yahoo! groups message lists, or short, 1-2 page sites on the topic belong. I do think we should have a link to Polyfamiles, and those academic papers you added look interesting (and should probably be eventually used as References instead!). 
However, I would appreciate it if the editor in question, or other editors, would discuss possible future additions, or any links you wish to put back in the article which I removed, with the group before doing so on your own. Links can quickly get out of hand, and long lists of links belong in the Open Directory Project but not here. Kit 20:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on the commercial pages: if PolyMatchMaker is really significant enough then it should be mentioned in the article, and if it's not significant enough then it doesn't really have a place as a link. Ditto for Loving More, and doubly so for the email groups. I think the short but informative pages should stay, though, as they serve as supporting evidence or references for an otherwise-lightly-referenced article. On the other hand, I grant that the line between it being a "poly resources" link directory and being a collection of external links relevant and useful to the article is a fine one, so I only suggest rather than ferverently argue. :-)  — Saxifrage | ☎ 21:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, the links section was getting rather bloated. Thanks for the cull :-) --Calair 00:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I rather like this one as being informative and representative of common polyamory practices. It also makes a good reference for the article. Any objections to including this in the External links?  — Saxifrage | ☎ 18:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive External Links