Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 20

message: I am being told by an admin, User:Jossi, that he can re-introduce challenged facts without providing a citation as long as the facts are "verifiable", as in can be verified. I moved the info to the talk page at Talk:List_of_Romanian_actors#Work_log for others to find citations for them. But he insists on keeping the uncited information in the article itself saying "Moving it to talk, simply removes any possibility from the occasional editor to come and add a source". My opinion is that moving it to talk prevents readers from reading potentially false information.
he says to me "You are misinterpreting WP:V". Is this true? Why doesn't the policy say this? Where have I gone wrong in interpreting this policy? Are uncited facts really allowed to stay even after being challenged because they are "verifiable"? I want to follow the rules here, but what are the rules? Until(1 == 2) 04:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I am not a she, I am a he. I have invited you to contribute to the project by finding sources rather than deleting material because there are no sources. It took me less than 20 minutes to find sources for the most of the entries in List of Romanian actors that you deleted. We are here to build an encyclopedia, and we do that by collaborating: one editor adds material, another editor adds more, and another finds a source. If the material is not sourced, you can add a  tag, and wait. If no source is forthcoming, you may delete, if you wish, or better do some basic research if you are inclined and find a source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You say "I am interested in others opinions on this matter." My opinion is that User:Jossi is 100% right on this. Read all his comments in this thread (section). WAS 4.250 12:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How typical, established editors 100% supporting each other against new ones. Of couse Jossi's wrong. The burden of evidence is always on those who want to keep the claim, and the first pragraph of this policy page says it literally: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material.". "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page." In other words, moving to talk is the natural reaction to complaints like Jossi's, but he can't demand anything else. The use of the  tag instead is recommended, but not obligatory - it's up to the challenging editor to decide whether the risk of disinforming readers is too high. Jossi has no right to re-add anything.--Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: On the contrary. I do appreciate your contributions. Moving content to talk is deleting content. The application of policy needs to be done in context. An unsourced controversial claim in a biography of a living person can be deleted on sight, for example. For non-contentious material such as a list of actors, we give some more leeway. If an entry is not sourced, hopefully someone will add it at a later point. Wikipedia articles are work in progress and there are tens of thousands articles without sources. You may want to join one of the Wikipedia projects to help with finding and adding sources to such articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You may want to read WP:CITE#Dealing_with_citation_problems where this is explained. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The key here is whether the information is harmful to the article (as outlined in WP:CITE)... since listing someone as a Rumanian Actor is hardly harmful (to the article or the person), the correct approach is to add a citation request (a  tag) and leave it in the article.  If, after a reasonable period (I would suggest at least a month), a citation has not been provided, then you can delete it or move it to talk.  Blueboar 11:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course any wrong information is harmful to the article. But the fun thing is that we now have three established editors supporting each other against all reason and policy. It's getting cooler and cooler. --Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: If I as a reader(remember the reader?) look up Romanian actors, and add some to my report that are not Romanian actors because WP put uncited information back in(after another editor challenged it veracity), that is harmful. Unreliable information is a detriment to an article. This is basic academic responsibility, show your work. Until(1 == 2) 13:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: All I can do is follow policy. I think any incorrect information is harmful to the article. I would appreciate it if this vague advice I am being given is explained in more clear terms in policy. Because it seems that there is a set of rules, but when I follow them I am told there is another unwritten set of rules. Perhaps an addition to the policy would clear this up. I for one am confused. I have no reason to believe that the entries on the list really are actors, really are Romanian, and really have a significants that justifies an entry in an encyclopedia. How can I know this if all this is true without a citation? How do I know we are not just passing on false data that some guy added one day after school? Why does it say I can challenge uncited facts I am unsure about when it seems I get in trouble when I do? I am not trashing the place, I am citing what I can and moving what is not to the talk page. The article is for the readers, the talk page is for the editors. I don't see why editors should keep notes about "what might be citable" in the article space. It is very hard on new users when the policy says one thing and the mob says another. Until(1 == 2) 13:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: What you folks are all telling me, is it in a policy that I have not read? That would explain a lot. For example, where is it written in policy "The reqirement is that it is capable of being sourced(sic)"? Until(1 == 2) 14:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair to both sides, I am not aware of this shift-to-talk being a current policy or practice. However, thinking about it, it seems that it could be sensible anyway. If there's content that an editor honestly can't tell the truth or falsehood of, is uncited and has been marked as such for some time, I can see how it might be appropriate to do this. I have no idea if that's the situation in the cases referred to, it just strikes me that there could be cases that it applies to. SamBC 14:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia:Verifiability says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability". Note that it does not say "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is an inline citation to a reliable published source." Citing is how we demonstate verifiability when a claim is challenged. Wikipedia:Verifiability then says "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. Quotations should also be attributed. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it. Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the fact template, or tag the article by adding Not verified or Unreferenced. Leave an invisible HTML comment, a note on the talk page, or an edit summary explaining what you have done. Be careful not to go too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people." Clearly, we are not supposed to go around deleting every uncited claim. Clearly, how we deal with uncited claims is a matter of editorial judgement. There is no rule to be used blindly on every uncited claim. But editorial judgements will vary. So when you feel that some list items should be moved to the talk page then maybe they should. When someone else disagrees then maybe they shouldn't. It is all a matter of editorial judgement. See WP:IAR for our most important rule. If it make wikipedia better then it is ok to do. WAS 4.250 14:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. The policy clearly supports Until. You are supposed to delete every uncited claim that you think needs to be deleted. The burden of evidence is on the one who restores it - i.e. the one hwo restores it without evidence is wrong. If you abandon this rule, you only have anarchy and edit warring left. Which some people like, I'm sure. --Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That seems to support my position that once removed a citation needs to be provided before re-adding. I have just learned the policy is supposed to be "descriptive" of consensus, not "prescriptive". So it appears the problem is not with me misinterpreting policy, but the policy misrepresenting the community consensus. In order to move forward instead of just going in circles I will attempt to draft a policy change proposal to include the communities opinion on these matters. Expect it within a few hours. I am willing to follow the rules, but it needs to be made clear what the rules are. Until(1 == 2) 15:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If your proposal succeeds, I'm leaving this project.--Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not a good way to react to other editors. Wikipedia has dispute resolution processes you can use instead.  Jehochman  Talk 20:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you slightly misunderstood my statement and the context. That aside, I see no other adequate way to react. And DR has nothing to do with this. --Anonymous44 20:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I would like to point out that WP:V defines "Verifiable": ""Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." It does not mean "Capable of being verified", it means it needs a citation to a reliable source that any editor can check. Until(1 == 2) 15:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifiable information 

message: Sourcing is new to wikipedia. Articles written for wikipedia in the early years were typically not sourced. There remain many thousands of excellent article in wikipedia from those years that remain to be properly sourced. Do not delete any data from wikipedia that you believe to be both true and not harmful regardless of whether or not it is sourced. Sourcing is an improvement and only a requrement if someone honestly believes it is either false or harmful (per WP:BLP or WP:LIBEL for example). The reqirement is that it is capable of being sourced. It only fails this requirement if people actually look online and in libraries for a source and can't find one. It does not fail this requirement just because a question on a talk page goes unanswered. WAS 4.250 12:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All I can do is follow policy. I think any incorrect information is harmful to the article. I would appreciate it if this vague advice I am being given is explained in more clear terms in policy. Because it seems that there is a set of rules, but when I follow them I am told there is another unwritten set of rules. Perhaps an addition to the policy would clear this up. I for one am confused. I have no reason to believe that the entries on the list really are actors, really are Romanian, and really have a significants that justifies an entry in an encyclopedia. How can I know this if all this is true without a citation? How do I know we are not just passing on false data that some guy added one day after school? Why does it say I can challenge uncited facts I am unsure about when it seems I get in trouble when I do? I am not trashing the place, I am citing what I can and moving what is not to the talk page. The article is for the readers, the talk page is for the editors. I don't see why editors should keep notes about "what might be citable" in the article space. It is very hard on new users when the policy says one thing and the mob says another. Until(1 == 2) 13:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: What you folks are all telling me, is it in a policy that I have not read? That would explain a lot. For example, where is it written in policy "The reqirement is that it is capable of being sourced(sic)"? Until(1 == 2) 14:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair to both sides, I am not aware of this shift-to-talk being a current policy or practice. However, thinking about it, it seems that it could be sensible anyway. If there's content that an editor honestly can't tell the truth or falsehood of, is uncited and has been marked as such for some time, I can see how it might be appropriate to do this. I have no idea if that's the situation in the cases referred to, it just strikes me that there could be cases that it applies to. SamBC 14:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia:Verifiability says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability". Note that it does not say "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is an inline citation to a reliable published source." Citing is how we demonstate verifiability when a claim is challenged. Wikipedia:Verifiability then says "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. Quotations should also be attributed. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it. Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the fact template, or tag the article by adding Not verified or Unreferenced. Leave an invisible HTML comment, a note on the talk page, or an edit summary explaining what you have done. Be careful not to go too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people." Clearly, we are not supposed to go around deleting every uncited claim. Clearly, how we deal with uncited claims is a matter of editorial judgement. There is no rule to be used blindly on every uncited claim. But editorial judgements will vary. So when you feel that some list items should be moved to the talk page then maybe they should. When someone else disagrees then maybe they shouldn't. It is all a matter of editorial judgement. See WP:IAR for our most important rule. If it make wikipedia better then it is ok to do. WAS 4.250 14:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. The policy clearly supports Until. You are supposed to delete every uncited claim that you think needs to be deleted. The burden of evidence is on the one who restores it - i.e. the one hwo restores it without evidence is wrong. If you abandon this rule, you only have anarchy and edit warring left. Which some people like, I'm sure. --Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That seems to support my position that once removed a citation needs to be provided before re-adding. I have just learned the policy is supposed to be "descriptive" of consensus, not "prescriptive". So it appears the problem is not with me misinterpreting policy, but the policy misrepresenting the community consensus. In order to move forward instead of just going in circles I will attempt to draft a policy change proposal to include the communities opinion on these matters. Expect it within a few hours. I am willing to follow the rules, but it needs to be made clear what the rules are. Until(1 == 2) 15:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If your proposal succeeds, I'm leaving this project.--Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not a good way to react to other editors. Wikipedia has dispute resolution processes you can use instead.  Jehochman  Talk 20:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you slightly misunderstood my statement and the context. That aside, I see no other adequate way to react. And DR has nothing to do with this. --Anonymous44 20:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I would like to point out that WP:V defines "Verifiable": ""Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." It does not mean "Capable of being verified", it means it needs a citation to a reliable source that any editor can check. Until(1 == 2) 15:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced data

message: ----
I would just like to say how infuriating the ambiguity of this policy is in the degree to which editors can misinterpret the reasoning behind it. "Reliable, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking" is obviously meant to be a requirement for controversial claims which are surprising or significant. Less controversial claims, such as the notability or even the existence of a website, can be reasonably verified with LESS reliable sources such as forums or blogs (especially because it's something the reader can verify by exploring the site in question him or herself). This is not a complex concept. I believe that WP:V and/or WP:AS need to be rewritten to emphasise what does require "reliable" sources and what kind of claims can be supported with less reliable sources such as blogs or focused websites with a dedication towards the topic and no reason for bias. (Example, using a pokemon website to support claims made about events in the game/series is acceptable, even tho that website would not be said to have any kind of of independent review i.e. not "reliable" in the traditional sense.) Please make this clear in these editorial policies. I apologize if my comment has gone in the wrong place, please move it if there is a more appropriate location for it. 74.61.41.118 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I was tightening up the wording in the section on self-published sources in articles about themselves in WP:ATT so that it matched what was here in WP:V, and I noticed an extra criteria, which was along the lines of "that the article is not primarily based on such sources". (See last criteria in left pane of this diff). This sounds like a reasonable restriction, and I would have added it here but for the prot. Can we get some consensus to add this into WP:V, and have an admin add it? - Crockspot 17:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:ATT

message: I have a strong objection to this being added to the article. I reverted, was reverted, and the reverter was reverted. I saw no discussion of this above, and I would guess that consensus would be against this addition. There are statements that contradict the source that is cited, and conflict with the previous paragraph. There was a similar change attempted to WP:BLP yesterday, which was de-fanged and watered down in a compromise that caused no actual shift of burden, or weakening of the policy. The same arguments apply here. - Crockspot 00:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have a strong objection to removing it. Without it, it lets any troll or zealot start asking for sources that Washington was the first President. (I exaggerate only slightly.) We need to concentrate on finding sources for the immense amount of unsourced controversial or partisan material in WP. diverting attention to challenging parts of articles or articles over trivial matters is not constructive, and does not contribute to building the encyclopedia. when getting rid of junk, the best strategy is to start with the worst & most damaging junk. Questioning the dob in every BLP is not productive--looking for biased assumptions and wording is what is really needed. DGG (talk) 02:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Trolls are dealt with in other ways, and should not be the ones that drive policy. That statement is superfluous. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objected addition 

message: Can anyone point to a consensus or guideline regarding the accuracy/verifiability of IMDB biographical information cited as a source? Having a WP:BLP problem with actress' date of birth on Minka (porn star) (the article subject is complaining). Videmus Omnia  Talk  15:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is my understanding that the IMDB is a resource to which readers can contribute data. Whether these additions are subject to oversight or verification before or after their publication is a question whose answer really determines whether it is a sufficiently viable source or just a repository for the readers' imaginings. In this case, since there has been some form of complaint raised by the subject of a BLP, I believe that there is some provision for the removal of the doubtful material, if you can reasonably describe the source as insufficiently reliable. I would not recommend changing the D.O.B. to whatever the subject herself may provide, since that could be considered to be original research using a primary source. Outline the removal on the talk page, with a rationale, just to keep onlooking editors happy and in the picture, and make a request for a more reliable source.  Adrian M. H. 21:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that's essentially what we did. I was just curious if there a previous consensus on this, as this is not the only time I've run into this situation. In this particular case, the subject declined to give the real date, they just asserted that the date we had was wrong. I think this person's issue is now resolved. Videmus Omnia  Talk  21:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two cents: I've always considered IMDB refs interesting to have right up to, or until, the info from there is contested by someone.  Once that happens, a reliable source needs to be found.  R. Baley 22:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not seen anything written anywhere, although that is not to say that it may not reside in an archive of VP or RS discussions.  Adrian M. H. 22:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not reliable. "While every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of the database IMDb gives no warranty as to the accuracy of the information contained in the database." You will find similar disclaimers on individual pages. Marskell 05:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifiability of [[IMDB]] info 

message: Wikipedia_talk:Lead_section#Lead_citation raises the question: must an article's lead contain citations, or is it OK to have the lead summarize the body, with all citations in the body? This topic comes up over and over again, and one can easily find high quality examples either way; for example Johannes Kepler has inline citations in the header but Climate of India defers all inline citations to the body. (Both of these examples are recent Featured Articles.)
My feeling is that WP:V allows the lead to summarize the body, deferring detailed citations to the body. But SlimVirgin feels strongly that articles like Climate of India do not conform to WP:V, and SlimVirgin has removed all my attempts to modify WP:LEAD to address the question. What's the consensus here? Does this issue require any changes to WP:V for clarification? Eubulides 06:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:V doesn't require inline citations at all, certainly not in the lead.  Inline citations are recommended but not mandated by policy. JulesH 08:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (They should be, but that is another debate). With regard to citing statements in leads, I see no problem with leaving them out as long as those statements are mirrored (in meaning) elsewhere and cited accordingly. Statements that are not repeated should, of course, be cited as required. Adrian M. H. 22:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:V indicates that statements should be sourced; it doesn't indicate how that sourcing must be implemented. If inline sources are applied to the main body of an article, and the lede is just the summary of a properly-sourced section, it is proper referencing. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 22:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing here that says leads are special, and they're not. All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, including contentious BLP edits, and all quotations, needs a source; and as a matter of practice nowadays that means an inline citation. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 19:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A unique thing about leads is that they usually contain general statements, and it can be difficult to cite any single source to support a general statement. For example "XXX's career was characterized by YYY." When the whole rest of the article supports that general statement, with scrupulous citations at every step, it doesn't necessarily make sense for someone to say that the general statement in the lead should be supported with a citation. A usable citation no doubt exists out there somewhere, in the introduction chapter to a biography, for example. But the fact is that the person asking for a citation in the lead may be asking for something that already exists, spread out over the body of the article. RedSpruce 21:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Must citations appear in the lead? 

message: Either you are trolling or you haven't even read whar [sic] you are objecting to
:Please refrain from unfounded statements and unsubstantiated accusations. Everything I responded to I have either: 
:* 1) already read (quite closely in fact); 
:* 2) requested it be re-written; or 
:* 3) explained why it is beyond the scope of the discussion and therefore irrelevant.
:Note: This is your second blatantly incorrect statement about my involvement and familiarity with the relevant issues here. You will do a lot to enhance your declining credibility by refraining from easily-disproved accusations, and sticking to the issues.
It makes clear that "immediate" is not to be assumed.
:I repeat: immediate removal is sometimes appropriate. You yourself just cut-and-paste the language from Jimmy Wales relating to WP:BLP violations. That policy states in relevant part:
   poorly sourced contentious material ... about living persons ... 
   should be removed immediately and without discussion (emphasis in original)
:As I said previously, I am attempting to help you. If this policy is to maintain the highest standards of credibility, clarity, and authoritativeness, it will be necessary to *at least* ensure the policy language is self-consistent. That has been my point from square one. How can this be any more sensible? How can I make this any more obvious?
You say that (appropriate time) needs to be further specified
:I think you misunderstood my (and others) points, I said it "begs the question". I also said I would defer to ≈ jossi ≈'s proposal: "in due course " here (after it had a chance for discussion per my remark). Nowhere did I ask that you reduce "appropriate time" to an exact number of seconds, hours or days; I was giving you a chance to prove you realize that there is no fixed exact number of seconds, hours or days. This is precisely why "appropriate time" begs the question.
Are you trolling me?
:Nope. I don't even know you. All I know about you is the substance of your contributions. Improve them, or at least do a cogent job of advocating them, and I will applaud your efforts; even if I disagree with you. I will respect any good-faith demonstration of intellect, integrity and credibility. I am not here to pick on you personally, I am here to help ensure in whatever small way that this policy is well-constructed and makes sense. Period. dr.ef.tymac 14:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] on "appropriate time" 

message: ≈ jossi ≈ had already added a proposed clarification, which I reverted, but agreed was worth supporting, though it seemed it just needed more input. I still stand by this, and support ≈ jossi ≈'s original proposal ... this horse has been beat to death, and other (less helpful) "clarifications" seem to be just muddying up the issue. dr.ef.tymac 00:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any chance of a reminder of what this proposal was? The edit history is quite... full, now, so it's hard to find which edit you're referring to. SamBC 11:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ≈ jossi ≈'s proposal: "in due course " diff here. dr.ef.tymac 14:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support for clarification by [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] to allow time for adding references 

message: Can the editors watching this talk page tell me whether I'm correctly interpreting the relationship between Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not? The former says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth", while the latter says "merely being true or informative does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia". My interpretation of this is:"Wikipedia's verifiability policy is not saying that anything with reliable sources should be in Wikipedia. It is saying that anything in Wikipedia must have reliable sources. In addition to this, our "What Wikipedia is not" policy is one of the policies that keeps unencyclopedic material out. Verifiability alone is not enough to keep unencyclopedic material out of Wikipedia."
Is this interpretation correct? I ask because I fear that it is too easy for people to misinterpret "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability" as "the only threshold for inclusion is verifiability", and from that to conclude that anything verifiable can be included, which is obviously wrong. Is there any possibility that the text here could be edited to make it clearer that this is not what is meant? Carcharoth 21:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The correct use would be "one of the thresholds for inclusion is verifiability". In the context of the longer sentence, this should read: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. (For other exclusionary criteria see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not)" ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: C: you're right. WP:V talks mostly about the content of an article, and WP:NOT is more about the overall types of articles that we do or do not have. If there is no way to write a verifiable article, then we can't have one. But even verifiable material may not make an article that fits into our mission. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think Carcharoth is right, I hope that bringing this issue up will be productive. Until(1 == 2) 17:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship between WP:V and WP:NOT 

message: Please see:
Wikipedia:Requests for verification
A proposal designed as a process similar to  to delete articles without sources if no sources are provided in 30 days.
It reads:
This page has been listed in :Category:Requests for verification.It has been suggested that this article might not meet Wikipedia's core content policies Verifiability and/or No original research.  If references are not cited within a month, the disputed information will be removed.
If you can address this concern by sourcing please [ edit this page] and do so. You may remove this message if you reference the article. 
The article may be deleted if this message remains in place for 30 days.
If you created the article, please don't take offense. Instead, improve the article so that it is acceptable according to Verifiability and/or No original research.
Please help [ improve this article] by adding citations to reliable sources. (help, get involved!)
Some editors see this as necessary to improve Wikipedia as a whole  
and assert that this idea is supported by policy, and others see this as a negative thing for the project with the potential of loss of articles that could be easily sourced.
I would encourage your comments in that page's talk or Mailing list thread on this proposal  WikiEN-l: Proposed "prod" for articles with no sources
Signed Jeepday (talk) 13:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:Requests for verification 

message: Alternate proposal: M. H. and SamBC have suggested what seems like the only rational course for resolving this perpetual-motion round-robin of abortive clarifications on "appropriate timing", "due course", "due process" or whatever else you want to call it.
I propose these issues be addressed in an Essay that gets linked from the policy text with a footnote, indicating there are differing views on how this should be handled. This kind of resolution has been done before on core policy pages (See e.g., Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Article_structure). If a pre-existing essay is not already out there, whoever wants to can take leadership on putting it together. If the essay takes sufficient shape, it can be proposed as a guideline.
Thoughts? dr.ef.tymac 17:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great idea, I have started gathering information already, User:Until(1 == 2)/Removal of uncited content. Feel free to edit that one, or just use the content, or even just replace it with a redirect to whatever you folks come up with. The essay is a wonderful idea that is truly needed. Until(1 == 2) 17:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's wise to say we're documenting the difference between policy and practice; that sounds like we're documenting what people do wrong. In this case, it's more to do with documenting details of common practice as guidance on the interpretation of policy, where policy does not, cannot, and will not give more specific guidance. SamBC 17:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I only gathered the differences between practice and policy because policy should be descriptive, no prescriptive. It is not the case that practice is a valid subset of policy, it actually seems contrary. I am not saying which is right or wrong, but they are clearly not saying the same thing. Until(1 == 2) 17:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I've put together a skeleton of what I see as a good shape/tone for the essay, at User:Sambc/wip/Removal of Uncited Material. This is largely for illustration/comparison purposes, but I'm happy for development to carry on there if people think this is the right tone/direction, and I'm happy to take a lead in developing it, as long as there's reasonably wide support and participation. SamBC 17:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I absolutely think this draft is in the right direction. With all respect to Until(1 == 2), it seems unlikely that momentum and consensus for a permanent link to this policy will materialize if the overall structure and tone is any more complicated than what SamBC has put forward here. dr.ef.tymac 18:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it's worth including the language regarding the decision being a judgement call in the policy. This clarifies that the policy is neither immediate removal nor always waiting, clarifies that it's a matter of judgement. I think there's a measure of consensus for this, but wanted to ask the question directly and without adornment to make sure. SamBC 17:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks like a very good starting point and it is the right direction for us to take, I think. I broadly agree that we should associate the procedure with an editor's judgment, following this up with whatever guidance we can give – per your proposed layout, I think – to assist in the decision making. Adrian M. H. 18:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My main concern as you move forward with drafting something is that it not weaken the ability of editors to remove unsourced material immediately if they feel it is appropriate to do so.  In actual practice, I generally do use a "shoot on sight" policy for obvious nonsense.  If something is just dubious, as opposed to patent nonsense, I usually fact tag it and wait a day or so before removing it.  In effect, I would say something like: "Unsourced statements may be removed or challenged at any time.  The burden of proof is on the editor putting material into an article, not on the editor taking out unsourced material."  And then emphasize that the place to work out content disputes is on the talk page for the article, not via edit wars on the article itself.  Buddhipriya 19:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The intent here, I believe, is that the policy say largely what it does right now, but with the addition of some material suggested before (the whole 'judgement call, people may disagree' thing, without the 'ask respected people' thing), and eventually point to guidelines elsewhere (once we have consensus guidelines) as to what sort of time is appropriate for what. The article already says basically what you say in terms of burden of proof, I believe. SamBC 19:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is also a discussion on timing as it relates to the deletion of unreferenced articles at Wikipedia:Requests for verification stop by and comment. Jeepday (talk) 01:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  I've fleshed out User:Sambc/wip/Removal of Uncited Material a lot more now; there's still a lot of gaps, and I'm sure it needs a lot of polish. Please, guys, tuck in. SamBC 03:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text: This entire part of the guideline makes sense only, if it is used sensibly. Most WP articles are sourced very generally by their references. From today's featured article Canon T90 " The form of previous cameras was largely dictated by the required locations of mechanical controls on the body, such as the film advance lever, rewind crank, shutter speed dial, shutter release, etc." Suppose I ask for documentation for each element of the list? DGG (talk) 01:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it's worth considering ways to re-word things that make that clear. SamBC 03:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  An attempt to move forward 

message: A link was added as a seealso to Wikipedia:Verifiability/Removal of Uncited Material. I've removed it due to several concerns.
*The essay is in a very unfinished state
*The essay appears to be (based on) an unnoted copy-paste from User:Sambc/wip/Removal of Uncited Material, the talk page for which does not note this copy/paste either. 
*Relating to the first concern, I am worried that people will give the essay undue wait, despite the essay tag.
I'm all for getting more discussion and contribution to the essay (which I've not been able to work on for a few days, at least, but was about to return to), but this is not served by a spurious link from a policy page, nor by forking the page. SamBC 16:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is an opinion piece and give a message with a spirit which is confusingly contrary to policy. I don't think it reflects the existing policy well enough to be linked here. Nor has there been a demonstration that there is a consensus for these opinions. Until(1 == 2) 16:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, which version are you referring to, and what are those points arguments for/against? SamBC 16:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I am sorry, I see now that the current essay is significantly different than the version I was thinking of. I will read the new version more carefully before I make comment. Until(1 == 2) 16:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It looks a lot better than its previous incarnation. Not sure I agree with the part about CSDs, but there seems to be two camps on that one in general. I think it has the germs of a good essay and will be very helpful to new users. I agree it may be better to wait until it is in a more finished state and then perhaps propose linking it to the policy here and see what people think. Until(1 == 2) 17:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd also like to see some discussion on the copy-paste; it sounds like I'm being precious and claiming ownership, I know, but that's not what I'm trying to say. I don't care where the essay is in terms of namespaces. I just don't see why it benefits wikipedia for it to be forked, and losing edit histories is generally considered a no-no, I thought. I would suggest moving the one in the project namespace aside, moving the one from my userspace to WP, and then posting to its talk page each of the changes made to each version for discussion. We'll need WAS 4.250's input to find out if there were any changes from the version in my userspace made during the initial copy-paste, as they can't readily be traced (unless  someone wants to copy out the sources onto their machine and diff them, of course). SamBC 17:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: SamBC, please delete the page I created and replace it using move. My edits were just to clean up the in-progress notes and blank sections and such. WAS 4.250 17:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The points brought up in the "What Counts as a Reference?" section are interesting, a reference in a form other than footnotes is still a referenced, it just needs stylistic improvements. Until(1 == 2) 17:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What also might need clarification is the process of verifying references.  It seems that things have been shifted such that the current reference system is inadequate when a reference is called into question.  If someone adds a citation, are they obligated to provide the original relevant text, or is the duty of the person questioning the references to obtain access to the publication in question?  Articles are not generally filled with cited quotations, but instead paraphrased information followed with a bibliography of supporting references.  If that paraphrased information becomes contested, an opposing editor may decide to remove it outright saying that it is "unsourced", even though it may have several appointed citations.  --Thoric 18:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I felt it was pretty clear; WP:AGF would imply that, if a source is provided that you have no access to check, you assume it has been used appropriately. This can go into the essay if someone works out how to word it, and it'll stay in if consensus is that it should. SamBC 18:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: While I (personally) agree with Thoric, the essay needs finishing (the how long to wait section from the original is something I believe should be there, it just needs someone with insight/inspiration to work on it), and then going through a reasonable process of consensus. It should never, IMO, be part of the core WP:V policy, but be sanctioned as an official guideline. SamBC 17:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Humble request: Even though the terms of the essay are still under development, can someone at least resolve the "fork" and then come back here and post the link to the "authoritative version"? ... or else blank one copy and make it a redirect to the other? I personally don't care what namespace it's in, just let there be only one copy. dr.ef.tymac 18:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm trying to sort that out - I'm putting back some removed bits from the WP namespace version, then I'll redirect the one in my talkspace. Hopefully no-one else is trying to do the same or the opposite at the same time, but that's why we have edit historis. SamBC 18:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case I will tag both as "in use" and request that everyone except SamBC refrain from editing them till this is resolved (just to make it painfully obvious if it isn't already). dr.ef.tymac 18:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Now that's done, everything is reasonably settled in terms of the fork, and we can get on with collaboratively writing the essay and turning it into an official guideline. The only version to be edited and worked on now is at Wikipedia:Verifiability/Removal of Uncited Material, with the last version that was there before the juggle being at Wikipedia:Verifiability/Removal of Uncited Material/old - or it was until it was deleted by SlimVirgin. SamBC 20:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to removal of unsourced material essay 

message: I think this discussion would be more productive with an example (note this example is not an active dispute).  I was directed to this example some time ago from someone who came to this talk page complaining about this policy being used disruptively.  I tried to help out, I did save some of the material, but I eventually found the task to difficult and moved on to other things.  In this case the material had reference provided for it, but had not been done with citation style.  There was no reason to believe the reference was given in bad faith or that the original contributor used it in a sloppy manner, however the dispute related to what qualified as "unsourced".  The reference was not a common book, I was able to find a copy at a local Jesuit university.  However it was an original edition, which means it was not the published English translation used by the original contributer, but the French version.  I was able to verify much of the information to the limits of my French skills and time (I do not have check-out or computer privileges at this library), I am certain the rest could have been verified by someone with greater skill (or the copy of the book in English).  This is the most solid example of disruption I have ever seen from this issue.  However I do not know how much fault lays with this policy, or that the issue should be clarified here.  However I think Talk:Marcel Lefebvre#Request for Comment shows that it is an issue that need some clarification somewhere.--BirgitteSB 16:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: An example: (starts at)[[Talk:Marcel Lefebvre#Removing uncited material]]