Talk:Virginia Tech shooting/Archive 11

message: Stalking is a serious issue particularly on college campuses.  The narrative in the section on Cho's motives alluded to his stalking female students and disturbing behavior in the classroom.  The section was probably deleted to make the article shorter, but by making the article shorter it left out valuable information that may prevent further death.  By minimizing the importance of stalking incidents, females do not report the incidents, do not go to court to get a protection order, no action is taken against the stalker (including serious psychiatric intervention) and sometimes this leads to deadly consequences.  In fact, if only a single female were killed by a stalker or a domestic violence incident, there would not even be a reference in Wikipedia.  In some jurisdictions, reports of stalking result in legal intervention and in others multiple reports accumulate and no action is taken. If more follow-up had been done in 2005 when the first complaints were made against Cho perhaps 33 more people would be alive today. Cherylyoung 10:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Although I didn't see the section you're refering, so I can't comment on what was in the section. Can you write something that is relevant, short and sourced into the article? You are very articulate and I believe you can come up with something, making sure there's some type of source too, so it won't be considered your opinion or original research. Thanks! Jeeny 16:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Details about stalking incidents were moved to the article on Cho Seung-hui, which is where it belongs, IMO.Sfmammamia 20:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motives 

message: This section has a number of NPOV violations and a few statements that are mistaken at best, or false at worse (ie, the quote about high-capacity magazines being illegal under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban -- only the manufacture and sale of new magazines over 10 rounds was illegal under the AWB, possession of old ones was perfectly legal, and they were easy to acquire in any gun or pawn shop, or over the Internet).  I'm starting to clean it up, but would like others to pitch in too.  --Tthaas 12:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is what was written in the article - and "clean it up" should not involve complete removal. Sad mouse 16:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: So the government banning murder and rape is code-speak as well? Gregohio 17:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, and people control the government, so it is people control over people. Huh. Anyway, this is original research (well... it is a rant, but I was being polite). Sad mouse 16:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It should not be moved - the shooting did not occur in a vacuum, it occurred in the real world. Therefore how the world responded to the shooting was an integral part of the event. Sad mouse 16:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up Gun Control Debate section 

message: I think that this addition to citation 44 should be removed. There is no evidence that it alludes to Macbeth in any way. If anything, it seems to be a reference to McDonalds:
No wonder your name is McPork - I mean McBeef. While the guys were packing on muscles, you were packing on McDonald's fat, chowing down on three Big Mac's[sic] in three minutes 
 James  Kendall  [talk] 16:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, given focus on pedophilia in the play , I interpret the name as a crude genital reference, i.e., "Dick", "beef", in combination with the fast-food reference.  Haakondahl 04:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The name of the play [Richard MacBeef] is clearly alluding to William Shakespeare's play "MacBeth"." 

message: Does anyone know of any source for the writings where he explains his motives? There are media reports with brief passages in which he explains why he did what he did, but they are very vague.Maziotis 21:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know it's unscientific, but he appears to have just gone batshit. HalfShadow 22:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Some of his 'manifesto' was directed towards the 'rich and hedonistic' but to be honest, not a lot of it made sense or was even coherent. I think he just broke. HalfShadow 22:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That news was inaccurate.  Somewhere in the article it should say that police initially thought that the first girl's boyfriend or ex-boyfriend was the culprit, and were looking for him, but Cho was not that person and had no prior relationship with her (other than possibly stalking her).Chunky Rice 22:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He was supposedly stalking someone, but that's all we know. HalfShadow 22:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict)We have that - it's in the "Perpetrator" section: "Early reports suggested that the killing was the result of a domestic dispute between Cho and previously alleged girlfriend Emily Hilscher, who was later revealed to have had no prior relationship with Cho.[24]". As far as his motives, I'd say it's rather clear that he was crazy, but until that's in a secondary source we can't print it. Personally, since the article about Cho quotes some of his writing, we don't have to point that out - he illustrates his own insanity just fine. Natalie 00:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict)The media is saying, now, that it was not his girlfriend. They said it was mistakenly assumed. Although it's still not clear how he knew the girl and how well, if at all, but doubt it was his girlfriend from what I heard and read from many sources. Who knows why people do this type of horror... there can't be a "logical" reason at all. There is no logic to killing people indiscriminately. I think that's why they call it "crazy" and or "evil" there are no other descriptors to rationalize such behavior. I think HalfShadow's term, "batshit" fits. Who can figure that out? It's so sad. Jeeny 22:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reasons for the shootings 

message: This discussion has been removed. Please see  if interested. --BigDT (416) 03:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clearing that up. Natalie 02:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would anyone have an issue with blanking this section and simply leaving a link to the diff for anyone interested?  I'd hate to have him read this discussion and get the wrong idea. (Keep in mind, also, that WP:BLP applies everywhere, not just in articles.) --BigDT (416) 02:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not just archiving it ASAP. The discussion is pretty much over, and it seems inlikely that he'll be reading the archives. Natalie 02:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if it is archived, it still shows up in search hits and mirrors.  I'm being WP:BOLD and removing it.  --BigDT (416) 03:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holden Hall photo 

message: Ahh, not a fan of the too long box, all of the current efforts aimed at "shifting content elsewhere" are proposed for deletion. -Phoenix 22:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Too long" box? 

message: Ugh. I complained about "heroic actions" yeseterday, and this is the same thing. This is simply not an acceptable name for a section. Remember, Wikipedia is not a memorial. I'm tempted to just delete the entire section. This needs to go. Titanium Dragon 01:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome to the future my friend.. without the cold war to kick reality into people, chances are this is the kind of contnet the masses will want --Jimmi Hugh 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but the masses also want 9 pages of Simpsons trivia and "PENIS!!!!!!" in half the articles. Sometimes the masses are wrong. Natalie 02:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do try and say that policy comes first when most people argue what the masses want, but unfortunately in this case, given it is a wording issue, policy has no case. --Jimmi Hugh 02:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tribute to self-sacrificing behavior 

message: This page and all of its subpages are extremely high visibility right right now.  In the interest of putting our best foot forward, what would everyone think about confining xFD and merge tags to talk pages with a central list of discussions being considered kept here?  Most articles that are up for deletion aren't exactly high-visibility ones.  But these are.  Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to keep the templates out of articles? There are enough people looking at this talk page that getting a consensus shouldn't be a problem ... on anything. --BigDT (416) 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge, TFD, and AFD templates 

message: I've just nuked a completely unsourced, speculative, bullshit section stating that "some have claimed" that this incident was staged to provide a justification for the US to attack Korea. Those "some"... they're always claiming crazy things... Natalie 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I accidently left out an important sentence: on the off chance that someone legitimate has actually been making this ridiculous claim, please reinsert with sources. Natalie 02:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Wow, that is goofy considering Cho was South Korean, and the US's conflict is with North Korea. Gregohio 18:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial theories sections 

message: Curious if anyone can verify the picture inside the classroom is from this specific event. I have not seen it on any other websites or CNN. As stated elsewhere, wonderful work editing. Neutralitybias 02:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See http://www.collegemedia.com/ and scroll down to the "Monday, April 16th 2007 8:19PM" update.  This is the same photo - the photographer released it under the GFDL.  Holden Hall and Norris hall are actually both the same building so even though this class was in Holden Hall, they were near where the shootings were going on.  --BigDT (416) 03:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does this particular photo need to be the first one seen, in the template at the top? Jmlk17 03:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no opinion in that matter.  I'm just answering the question.  ;)  I kinda like :Image:Norris hall.jpg for the infobox as it's more eye-catching, but I'm not picky. --BigDT (416) 03:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: There are reports on CTV today that the number of students killed in Couture-Nowak's French class - where the gunman took his life - may be incomplete.  Out off 22 students enrolled, apparently only 12 are accounted for: 10 killed, in addition to their teacher, and 2 survivors, now in hospital.  The foreign language department head, Richard Shryock, has expressed frustration with his inability to get information about the remaining students and the final moments in that classroom, and fears they may have perished also.  Are there any other reports about unaccounted for students?  Here is the link for the CTV (Canadian Television Network)report "Gunman committed suicide in Canadian prof's class" http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070419/cho_suicide_070419/20070419?hub=Canada wiki-stikler 03:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Victims?  More Victims? 

message: Why no mention of this name that he took on? It was tatood to his arm and was used in the return address for his package to NBC. 
Someone should write this up.
:Read the gunman's article. So far it has no importance in this article. Gdo01 03:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And finger's crossed people will note that he used the Biblical spelling not the Koranic spelling. Sad mouse 16:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ismail's Ax 

message: No, it hasn't really been that many but it seems like it.  Looking at the article, there has been nothing but vandalism for the last two hours and thus I have s-protected the article. I really hate having to protect it, but there has been nothing but vandalism and reverts for a while now. --BigDT (416) 03:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I support the semi-protection of this article. Vandalism levels are more than high enough to warrant it. WjBscribe 04:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea is to give high-traffic articles, as this obviously is, the chance to be unprotected. It is not to be done indefinitely for such articles, hence the constant reprotection. -Phoenix 04:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I prefer the article being semi-protected until the vandalism declines to a controllable level. 450w 19:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected for the 57th time 

message: I've noticed that some of the references no longer link to a relevant article. The TV networks seem to have a bad habit of using the same URL to post different content. --Uthbrian (talk) 06:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a rule of thumb, don't trust a URL of medium length.  Like a blog, the permanent sites of articles have longer URLs.  This doesn't always help--sometimes the article is actually moved to a daily/weekly/monthly archive train, with URL shifts along the way (no way to run a media outlet, for sure).  If the URL contains obvious date information, good.  If it is indecipherable AND LONG, better.  Haakondahl 08:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References to TV networks all messed up 

message: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an online chat forum. As such, it's usually accepted that tributes are not appropriate for talk pages, as seen on talk:Steve Irwin. However, as this article gets an increasing number of search engine hits, users might start posting tributes anyways. The thing is, if we keep removing tributes, people will think that we're pretty insincere. Therefore, I'm thinking about adding the following to the talk page header for now:
	Please note that this talk page is only intended for discussion of changes to the Virginia Tech massacre article.  Off-topic discussions, including tributes, are not appropriate and will be removed from this page. If you would like to post tributes, please use this page instead. Thank you for your cooperation!
Any thoughts on this? --Ixfd64 09:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that if we were likely to see any problem with this, we would have seen it already. Good thought, Ix, but unnecessary in my opinion. A Traintalk 11:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  talk sub-page for tributes? 

message: 12 references for one sentence is overkill. The most prominent threats should be briefly described individually to better organize the section. Noclip 12:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fails WP:Notability, unlikely we will care about copycat threats three days from now. Do we care even now? I propose that the section be removed. Ronnotel 13:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taken care of. I just moved it into a section above. I'm not sure about how appropriate where I moved it was, but I think its fitting enough. It stayed its own section like that for too long, IMO. └Jared┘┌talk┐  14:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm the one who moved it out of the "Other schools' responses" subsection.  The copycat incidents are not schools' responses, they're responses by students or others at or near those schools.  I've since renamed that subsection so I think we're okay.  --ElKevbo 17:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copycat threats 

message: Why is the information about picketing one of the student's funeral on the page? Is this really necessary? Zehly 13:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I removed it. Ronnotel 13:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This has been a frequent topic - for now, the title reflects popular consensus among attributable sources. If a different term for this incident emerges in these sources, WP will change the title. Ronnotel 14:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Westboro Baptist Church?? 

message: People are using this article, esp. in the international media section, to argue for gun control. That is not the purpose of wikipedia. Unless plans are also made to completely end black markets and to close the borders with Mexico, it is not clear such tragedies really can be prevented. Gun-control is a complex topic that should not be merged into this article. We see that making drugs illegal has really kept drugs out of people's hands. This simply is not the forum to discuss such things. Please make this section NPOV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.204.182 (talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:TALK for guidelines on how to discuss changes on the talk page - for instance, it's helpful to add new topics to the bottom of the page and to sign and date your comments by adding four (~)'s. Also, I'm going to move your NPOV tag to the Gun Control section, since it seems your issue is with that one specific area rather than the article as a whole. Hope this helps! Ronnotel 14:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can't we just remove the NPOV tag altogether?  I think that unless you are going to state specific reasons why the article is NPOV, the tag should not be added.  Remember 16:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. User:68.55.204.182, please either i) let us know what specifically you'd like to change, ii) make the changes yourself, or iii) remove the NPOV tag from the section. Otherwise, I suggest that the tag should be removed. Ronnotel 17:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gun Control 

message: Why keep removing the verylong template? Is it because the article is so popular? If people see that it meets the criterion for a verylong article, maybe they will want to contribute to helping us split/prune the article and prettify(tm) it. Zehly 14:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The template is supposed at the talk page, see here: Template:Verylong. --Abe Lincoln 14:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: For the record, I disagree about it needing the verylong template - if you remove the vast amount of references, the page is actually shorter than Columbine High School massacre, for example. I think people are being biased by the page size rather than the actual length. -Halo 17:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verylong template 

message: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
: Only full dates are currently linked.  --ElKevbo 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Image in use is free.  --ElKevbo 16:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: (until more edits are made reintroducing these errors)  --ElKevbo 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: (until more edits are made reintroducing these errors)  --ElKevbo 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree, these are some good suggestions. Especially the thing about dates and the picture in the corner. Zehly 16:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some suggestions 

message: Is this the official motive as believed by law-enforcement? Zehly 17:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motive: Mental Illness 

message: I've removed much of it, as it was a copyvio from  - as such it now needs to be expanded. -Halo 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: uh, really? please ask yourself if it's absolutely critical to include something before doing so. It's already been marked as 'off-topic'. If anything, the section needs a good paring down. Ronnotel 17:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, well, I think the content /would be/ extremely relevant to the section - to show the worldwide media response to the gun control debate - but obviously not something that is a copyvio. I also disagree with your view that it needs cutting down - I even disagree with the implication the article is too long (it's much shorter than the similar Columbine High School Massacre article, for example) - I think people are being biased because the /size/ rather than the /length/ of the article - and it's certainly something that got widespread attention after the massacre -Halo 17:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, it was marked off-topic by you. Out of interest, why do you think that it's off-topic? The vast majority of it is directly related as a response to the massacre - whether background law in Virginia, the University's rules, or the fact it sparked debate and the two different points of view. I also don't see what content could be merged with Gun control, as implied. It's also accurate that it did reignite the debate over gun control - a quick look on Google News finds thousands of articles on the subject specifically talking about Virginia, and to not represent it, IMO, would be ridiculous. -Halo 17:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Showing the "worldwide media response to the gun control debate" belongs in a separate article specifically about the "gun control debate."  The gun control debate has existed for a very long time.  It has no bearing on the events of this discrete event.  The only information that should be presented is what actually happened.  It can be mentioned that this event has renewed interest in the gun control debate, but it is not the beginning of it, nor will it be the end.  Thus, this whole section can be reduced to: "This event has renewed interest in the gun control debate."  Rooot 17:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I utterly, utterly, utterly disagree in every way possible, and really don't understand your point of view at all. It's the /response/ to this debate, the /background/ to the shootings (Virginia's lax gun control laws, the University specifically disallowing concealed weapons etc etc) which are intrinsic to giving an accurate picture to the reader of what happened, and the media's response to it - of which, probably the most significant one, was about gun control. I honestly don't understand how you are arguing otherwise. The gun control debate is /completely relevant/ to this article, because it was a shooting, guns, and specifically gun control laws, were involved and it reignited a long-standing debate and there was widespread press coverage of it. And that's without even going into the fact I disagree that you think it's too long. I completely and utterly fail to see how you can say it isn't relevant! -Halo 18:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, then we need to include substantial sections on mental health, school bullying, violence in the media, child abuse, racism, materialism, etc.  Because ALL OF THESE have been discussed at length in the media as the possible causes of the event.  Singling out gun control as the main focus is biased because it indicates that this is the favored cause.  That is simply not true.  There is no favored cause, but all of these have been identified as potential causes.  If we include one at length, we must include them all at length.  This will make the article far too long.  Therefore, they can all be mentioned, but they should be linked to separate articles that discuss these wholly independent topics.  Rooot 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. IMO what you're suggesting is like in Cho's article putting "He had mental health issues" and then simply putting "Mental health" as the main article - it doesn't tell you anything, as all the /specifics/ and the /background/ that make it relevant are lost. I disagree it's singling anything out either, but it's representing a reignited debate where there was a significant amount of press coverage - as such, Wikipedia can cover it as it is biased towards things with multiple reliable sources that are widely discussed in the media due to the policy on WP:OR. I'd actually agree on significant sections on bullying, racism etc. etc. IF there were multiple reliable sources available with lots of information and press coverage, I'd agree, but this doesn't exist, and there is very little background information, so there are only mere sentences. -Halo 18:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Listing the specific facts is not what I am concerned about.  The inclusion of all the unnecessary analysis and commentary is what is the problem.  List the facts to give background, then link to a page containing the debate so that the reader can make up his or her own mind if they want to.  We should not force this on the reader because it is a secondary issue.  Rooot 18:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then, if you agree with a section about the facts (the "background" section) you have the fact we're discussing over 4 paragraphs of "U.S. media response", one of which covers the viewpoints and the other two support it (which, IMO, is quite reasonable considering the several thousand articles on Google News about it and it summarises it in a tidy way) and an international section. Now, I'd support this being moved to a new article and a summary in the long run, but not now - as it'd inevitably be AFDed, merged and then we're back to square one which would be utterly pointless at this time. -Halo 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But the facts don't need to be restated.  One section of facts, and a link to the gun control page.  All the responses should be put on the linked page.  Just facts should be on this page.  This is not "Time" magazine. Rooot 18:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That is incorrect. If you actually look through the international media response, the commentary on gun control is far far greater than references to mental health, school bullying, violence in the media, materialism, etc. You are misrepresenting the international media to justify removing the section.Sad mouse 20:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your argument is fallacious.  Of course the gun control issue is far greater in the international media response section, as that is the only topic that people are moving into this article because the only sub issue presented in this article is the Gun Control issue.  Either we include all the sub issues (ludicrous), or we separate this out.  Rooot 22:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is incorrect again. The cited examples accurately reflect the content of the international media and have not been deliberately selected to give a biased opinion. I will assume that you have not read much international media recently, rather than you deliberately misleading the discussion. Sad mouse 22:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Assume all you want, the facts have not changed.  This is not a debate forum, nor is it a forum for a pro-globalization agenda.  In the interest of brevity, relevance, and neutrality, the section should be moved or deleted.  Rooot 22:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If the law is the primary story, then the article containing that story should be primarily about the laws.  Such as gun control.  The only relevant information for this article are the events which actually happened.  The policy behind anything is irrelevant to the discrete events that took place, but can be addressed in a separate article.  Rooot 18:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But what actually happened is that this guy, crazy as a loon, bought two semi-automatic handguns.  Didn't steal them or get them on the black market, but from licensed dealers.  And, the reaction to that is actually happening. Gregohio 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And that is all that needs to be said in this article.  The rest of the debate belongs in a different article, which we can link to.  Rooot 18:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree.  Imagine that! Gregohio 18:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Disagreed. Consider the article for 9/11 - more than half the article is about responses to it, because the way it effects society contributes to its importance and notability. The anti-gun debate here should be treated like the anti-terrorism debate there - as an integral part of the event. Sad mouse 22:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I apologise, you have very similar names. -Halo 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Accepted, I can see how one might confuse our names. Ronnotel 18:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "International media response" section was copyvio. 

message: In Cho's videotaped diatribe that he mailed to NBC he made some statements that sounded to me like quotes from movies or books. My guess was that many of his strange statements were excerpts of "hot phrases" he had acquired over the years and not original. One of Cho's raging comments, "The decision was yours" struck me as such a phrase. Upon a Google search I came across a book with a cover that startled me - it shows a small Asian child on a bus being bullied by a caucasian child.  Beside the Asian child's head is a large question mark.  I believe it is very possible Cho came across this book at some point in his life and it may prove to be a key in unraveling the reasons for this tragedy.  Check out my blog about this to see the book cover. - - When the Monster Breaks You - Cho Seung Hui —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.86.138 (talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho May Have Referenced Book on Bullying 

message: There has been a dispute as to whether the 'package mailed to NBC' incident should be mentioned in the Norris Hall attack section. Since the other pertinent actions of the gunman (some of which doubtless have not been revealed yet) are covered in the section on Cho, I do not think it is appropriate to include something that occurred earlier (namely the mailing) under the Norris Hall section.
Thoughts?- Markm62 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it IS important that he used the time between the shootings for mailing the package and should be mentioned somewhere in the section "Attacks". Maybe there might be a better place than the current in "Norris Hall attack". --Abe Lincoln 18:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps there ought to be a section between entitled 'Cho's Activities between Attacks' or something to that effect. Over time there will develop a better idea of what he was doing during the two hours such as gathering the chain and lock, packaging and/or sending the manifesto, etc. Thoughts?- Markm62 18:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon further reflection, the best place for the information is at the END of the first shooting section. Take a look.- Markm62 18:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I don't think we need a whole section, especially considering that all the pertinent information can be conveyed in one or two sentences. Natalie 18:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Great, thanks. --Abe Lincoln 19:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Package Mailing' included under Norris Hall Shootings 

message: In notes 100, and 108 some of the dates are appearing as red links. Can someone who has some knowledge of the ref formating system fix these? Thanks. JoshuaZ 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting 

message: Probably off topic, delete if you wish, but here is a timelapse someone made of the VT massacre page on Youtube -Ravedave 19:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: very cool, thanks. Anyone here want to take credit? Ronnotel 19:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was really impressive. I wonder what time span the time lapse encompassed - looked like it was just the first day. Natalie 20:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was done over a 12 hour period according to the description at YouTube.  --ElKevbo 21:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time lapse of this page 

message: He may have been mentally ill, but surely this is not the motive in itself for the crime? -Phoenix 19:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree I already asked about this above but no one responded. I'm going to set it to unknown. Zehly 19:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should stay unknown until someone in a position to declare such things makes a statement. And by someone in such a position, I mean someone ranking in the Virignia State Police, FBI, or similar, not media speculation. Natalie 20:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: until we can source something, we should leave it as unknown-Threewaysround 20:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mental illness" as a motive? 

message: Anyone thing that this should be included in this article?
:Columbine survivor, Regina Rohde, was a student at Virginia Tech and was on campus at the time of the massacre, making this the second school shooting she has survived.--aishel 19:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a cool piece of trivia, but the "anti-trivial-facts" mode Wikipedia is in right now refutes its addition. -Phoenix 20:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Three ways round; I do not think it will add anything to the article at all. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The fact that she was on-campus doesn't make her a "survivor" anyway.  If she were in one of the rooms of the dorm or of Norris Hall where the killings took place, yet lived, that would make her a survivor. --Yksin 21:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Columbine survivor was at at VT 

message: People keep reverting my addition of Solana's/EU's statement, is not Voice of America a reliable source or what is the problem? -Lapinmies 20:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted your addition when it was about the EU "foreign policy dude" as that smacks of vandalism, poor editing, or simply an addition not becoming of this already-long article.  As to why your edits were reverted after you clarified the person's correct title, I can not definitely respond as I didn't make those reversions.  I would guess, however, that the addition may simply have been judged not notable enough to add to this already-long article in light of the many other international responses already documented.  Isn't there already something from the EU in the article from the current head of the EU?  --ElKevbo 21:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did not notice anything about EU. -Lapinmies 21:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks like someone deleted it again. As far as I know that statement is the only one the EU has made and Solana is not just a high ranking official. -Lapinmies 21:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A general expression of sympathy by a high official who just happened to attend VT is not notable on it's own. Ronnotel 21:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the footnotes includes a statement from Merkel on behalf of the EU. Ronnotel 21:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, it got moved to a footnote.  It's nice to know that my memory isn't *that* bad yet. :)  --ElKevbo 21:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where? I can't find anything about the EU in the article. -Lapinmies 21:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, there. But that is just Merkel speaking as Germany, Solana is the foreign policy head honcho dude and his statements are official statements of the EU. -Lapinmies 21:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solana 

message: The second paragraph of the introduction is devoted to describing the perpetrator's nationality, race and immigration status in the U.S. Are these facts really the most central data about there is? What about gender, his history of psychological evaluations, his secluded situation in school, etc? The nationalistic focus isn't NPOV. — David Remahl 20:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prominence about nationality / immigration status 

message: How relevant, long-lasting, and uniquely valuable is this section? To me, it seems a standout for deletion. Everybody is "responding" to the incident, and this is likely to go on for some time.Sfmammamia 20:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ya this is definatly one of the more irrelevent sections, i vote we just get rid of it-Threewaysround 20:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep ... and just wait until this fall, when we will get to relive the media circus every Saturday during football season and every school on the east coast will have a tribute at some point. --BigDT (416) 20:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there's a great deal of support for moving this stuff off of the page. I'm going to remove that section per WP:BRD; let's discuss re-inclusion here if/when my move becomes controversial. A Traintalk 21:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with it - the actions of a baseball team are really  not going to be very important in the long run. Natalie 23:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly agree - it needs to go.Snorgle 23:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sporting tributes 

message: Ladies and gentlemen, this talk page is moving at a fairly prodigious rate and, although it's not as fast as it was earlier in the week, it's becoming cumbersome to archive well. I made one effort to selectively go throw and archive only threads that weren't active anymore, but it was trying enough that I didn't attempt it again and I don't believe that anyone else has, either. By engaging the services of MiszaBot, we won't have to do the archiving ourselves and the bot will take care not to archive discussions that are currently active. Do we have a consensus to do this? A Traintalk 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but only if we can define what MiszaBot considers "inactive". If MiszaBot comes with a set definition that's too long (i.e. 1 week) then it will be less than useless, as we have accumulated close to 10 archives in 4 days. Natalie 18:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure that's doable - although I'm far from a bot expert, so maybe I'm offbase. I'll drop a note to Misza13. A Traintalk 19:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears to be fairly simple to set up and define the timespan to whatever we need to be.  --ElKevbo 21:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in that case, I think we should go for it, and probably give it a time frame of 24 to 48 hours, for now. By next week or so we can probably lengthen the time it lets discussion threads sit. Natalie 23:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'm going to try and set it up. Cross fingers, etc etc. :) A Traintalk 23:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, I added the script to the page as per the instructions at User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo. The template is visible at the very top of the page if you try to edit it. By all means, any users with more bot-savvy than me double-check my doings and make sure that I haven't just ruined Wikipedia or Western civilization or anything. A Traintalk 23:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments requested: Automatic archiving 

message: Somebody just deleted the picture of him holding up the two guns. I understand why this may have been done because the picture is offensive to victims families. I believe, however, that under the perpetrator section we should have a picture of Cho to the side. Why not put up his student ID photo instead (the first picture that shows up on Cho's article) ? I would but I don't know how to post pictures on Wikipedia. Tocino 5:42 P.M., 20 April 2007 (CST)
:The headshot photo was replaced with the guns photo by an editor who gave the edit summary "less benign version". Then 25 edits later or so an anon removed the gun photo with no explanation. I just replaced the head photo, and have no opinion either way about the gun photo. Someone also just removed the photo of George W. Bush at the convocation because "the Virginia Tech massacre is not a political stage and the article already has multiple relevant photos", according to their edit summary. I think that is not clear cut enough for unilateral action, so I've restored the photo. If people think it's unecessary we should discuss it first. Natalie 23:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whethwer it is or it is not offensive to some people is irrelevant.--Svetovid 23:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho's Picture 

message: Should we protect this page? It has been vandalized several times today. I'm a big believer in "we're a wiki", but this is an article that could be more damaging to Wikipedia's reputation if there was vandalism on it. Just a thought. --Trumpetband 23:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Protection 

message: User User:Natalie Erin wrote in a section above:
:"Someone also just removed the photo of George W. Bush at the convocation because "the Virginia Tech massacre is not a political stage and the article already has multiple relevant photos", according to their edit summary. I think that is not clear cut enough for unilateral action, so I've restored the photo. If people think it's unecessary we should discuss it first. Natalie 23:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (revert - it was a notable event)
My response is that, while the Virgina Tech convocation was notable, George Bush's use of the event as a political stage was not, at least in the context of an article about the Virginia Tech massacre.  The article already has a photo of the convocation, and many more relevant photos related to the topic of the article have already been included.  The reason given in my edit summary is a clear cut enough reason not to have a picture of George Bush in an article about the Virginia Tech massacre. 204.42.27.110 00:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Whether the photo is political is what I was referring to when I said it wasn't super clear cut. I'm not a huge fan of Bush, but I'm not going to be so crass as to say his presence at that memorial was a photo op. I really don't care enough to argue the point about that particular photo though - I think you should have replaced it with a different one. We have some pd photos of the convocation at Commons, so I think you should find another one and put it where the Bush photo was. Natalie 00:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  George Bush photo 

message: I'm looking for the source on the family response quoted to see who specificly said these things and it seems that the source is itself. Could someone please find the real source or elliminate the false circular source and put a 'citation needed' thing there? -youngidealist  68.231.200.13 06:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho's family response 

message: Ok, I think it needs to be decided exactly what image will be used on the top of the page, because the previous image of the campus seemed to be just a randob image that didn't really illustrate the event, but the current cell phone video image of students in the building cowering also doesnt seem right.Rodrigue 23:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first image was there only because no usable free images were yet available, and it's difficult to prove that "no free images are availabe illustrating the same thing", in terms of fair use. The cell phone is at least a live image from within the incident. The article is young, an acceptable image will come along soon enough. -Phoenix 23:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I liked the previous photo. I strongly dislike the current photo as it's just poorly taken (is that the right word?) - grainy, out of focus, and not a very good photograph. I certainly don't fault the photographer as that was a difficult time to concentrate on one's photographic skills but it's not a very high quality photo to use as the topmost and therefore most important or representative photo. If that's the look one wants to go for (similar to a producer's choice of handheld cameras to convey a sense of realism), then I respect that stylistic choice - but I disagree with it in this case. --ElKevbo 23:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with this. While the hallway image is perhaps more relevant, the memorial image is still quite relevant enough and far better on its merits as an image, which is important for the infobox image given its high-profile status. --Kizor 00:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not post a picture of Cho? I'm serious, anytime we see that face we'll think "Virginia Tech", nothing relates to the shooting more than him.  --jmrepetto
Incidentally, it turned out that this was a non-issue: the hallway photo's license requires mentioning its photographer in the caption. The article's now back to having the mourning one on top. --Kizor 11:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article image 

message: The Other schools' responses can be pared down to a few sentences.  Almost every college and university in the United States and many around the world had some kind of response -- a message from the president, a vigil, counseling offered to students, info on how they are prepared to respond to similar attacks, etc.  By singling out a few in detail, it implies that these were the only ones.  This entire topic can be summed up in a few sentences. Crunch 11:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly Agree. I can't find a single notable event. I tried deleting yesterday but was reverted. Ronnotel 13:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I just trimmed the section.  There is currently one sentence noting the responses by many other institution referenced by VT's very large collection of links to those responses.  I left in those institutions that are actually offering physical assistance to VT or responders (counseling services, housing, etc.).  There should probably be a sentence added about the reaction of colleges and universities who are reexamining their emergency response and communication tools, options, and processes but that could be a short sentence.  --ElKevbo 13:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits are more generous than I would have been but it's better. Thanks. Ronnotel 13:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I took a crack at filtering out some of the press release fluff while keeping the salient elements.Ronnotel 13:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good edits.  I think we're in pretty good shape right now.  Like much of the article, this section will need to be watched to ensure it doesn't grow out of control.  It's rather nice to be spending my time on good-faith and well-intentioned edits than blatand vandalism. :)  --ElKevbo 17:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: i concur with Crunch & Ronnotel. it's sort of obvious that a large amount of sympathy would be directed at the students and survivors without having to enumerate individual organisations that sent that sympathy. tomasz. 14:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree  Delete the section.  Rooot 18:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Strongly disagree it is fine how it is. It is relevant, notable, and cited. ⇒ SWATJester On Belay! 22:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Comment. I think you're missing the point, Swatjester. The issue is not that the handful of schools listed did what they did and that what they did was relevant, notable and cited. The point is that thousands of other schools in the US and around the world did the same. But if we mention just these few, it strongly implies that they were the only ones. The |good reference provided to the the Virignia Tech website that talks about the support and response from other schools provides a good summary.  I imagine, in time, we will have more similar references that provide such summaries. --Crunch 23:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, then if that's the specific type of support you are addressing, and only that kind of support, you have to be a whole lot more clear that that's what you're talking about. Right now having a sentence like, "Wake Forest University and Clemson University have offered grief counselors and other assistance" is ridiculous because almost every college in America is doing that. --Crunch 18:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete or severely edit '''Other schools' responses''' section 

message: The way the first line of the section says "Resident Alien of North Korea" right before his name just doesn't sit well with me. That is why I tried removing it twice, but each time I was undid by the same anon. Is it consensus for that to be there? --LuigiManiac 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He was South Korean.  North Korea is a separate country and has been for over 50 years.  He has lived in the US for 2/3 of his life. Gregohio 18:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Fixed -Halo 18:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that looks much better. --LuigiManiac 18:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good lord. I'm surprised so many people don't know the difference between North and South Korea. Natalie 19:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do know the difference...I just couldn't remember which one he was from, and I didn't want to get an edit conflict, so I just picked one and saved the page without double-checking. --LuigiManiac 18:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I should have been more clear - I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the various anons who keep making edits to the article that confuse South and North Korea. The edit you were talking about was just one in a long list of edits that were from people who apparently don't pay too close attention. Natalie 23:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first line of the Perpetrator section 

message: "Kevin Granata left his third-floor office of Norris Hall and went down to the second floor as the second round of shootings took place. Reportedly he heard a commotion and went into the hallway to see if he could help anyone. He was killed there by Cho."
How is this a "scene of resistance"?  It just says he walked into the hallway.  It doesn't fit with the other's actions of barracading the doors...  SGT 18:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is out of a now deleted section called "Heroic Acts". It was renamed since it is not NPOV. --Abe Lincoln 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He left his office and 'tried to help people' and ended up getting killed. See http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070418/LOCAL/704180522/1196/LOCAL Over time more details will emerge.- Markm62 18:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It just seems strange to have 5 bullet points, with 4 of them describing people trying to block or barracade doors and one saying he "walked into the hallway to see if he could help anyone".  I don't have a problem with it, but reading though the article it didn't seem to fit with the others. SGT 19:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I added a word "help" there to avoid confusion.--Svetovid 03:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scenes of Resistance 

message: Can we discuss what should be pruned from this section? I'm not entirely sure which parts people think strays off-topic, so I don't want to just go in and make cuts. Natalie 19:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Virginia_Tech_massacre#Gun_Control_Debate  and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Virginia_Tech_massacre#.22International_media_response.22_section_was_copyvio.  Rooot 19:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hesitate to support point #3 as it seems to be too speculative.  Rooot 19:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: To make sure I'm clear: you're saying you don't think any of the section is off topic? Natalie 20:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the background could be reduced, since much is in the article above, but no, I don't think the gun control debate section is off topic, in fact I can say that easily 95% of all the discussion I have heard about the shooting has been on gun control. Sad mouse 20:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the general idea of a section on the gun control debate is relevant. I originally misread the tag and thought it said that parts of the section were straying off-topic. Having taken a second look I see it says that the entire section is straying off topic, which seems wrong. So I have no objections to just removing the tag entirely. Natalie 20:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The tag says that the section "may stray."  That does not mean that the whole section strays, but rather that parts of the section stray.  By definition, it has to start at the right place in order to "stray."  But, I digress.  There seem to be two people who think that the section is still good: Sad mouse and Halo.  Look at the "Gun Control Debate" discussion section above and the ""International media response" section was copyvio." section above and you will see that they are clearly in the minority on this issue.  I believe that the information may be important, but I do not believe that it is appropriate to include it in this article.  It should be either moved to gun control or to a stand alone article which details the debate on gun control relating to the Virginia Tech incident itself.  Either way, most of the section should be removed from this article.  Rooot 21:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you should look through the history page for the article and you will see that multiple users added to and improved the international media response (I actually have not added to the section except to replace removed references). It is only a few people who want to remove the entire gun control and international response sections for POV reasons. I note that you have already been formally warned (twice) for your actions on this article, so I hope you do not take unilateral action and delete the sections. Sad mouse 23:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The initial part, however, IS unsourced, and if it cannot be attributed to a reliable source, the first two sentences before Gun Control may end up being deleted if they are not sourceable. --AEMoreira042281 15:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's designed to be an introduction, and is supposed to be proven by the following paragraphs, ala a Wikipedia:Lead Section. -Halo 19:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  off-topicness of gun control debate section 

message: This event was not actually "the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history". I changed it to "one of the deadliest..." because there have been several other massacres with a higher death toll. The Colfax massacre of African-Americans by Ku Klux Klan members in 1873 resulted in 105 deaths. Also, the Sand Creek massacre of 1864 resulted in as many as 185 Cheyenne killed. And the Wounded Knee massacre of 1890 resulted in 300 Dakota Sioux dead. Of course, I don't mean to minimize this tragic event, but it was historically inaccurate the way it was originally worded. I suppose one could make the argument that these are not "modern" events, but I'm not sure what the consensus on that term is. Mycota 21:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I made this point more than once, but my edit kept getting deleted, as did the discussion on the Talk page. Hopefully this edit will stick now--it's unfortunate that this phrase keeps being used in a quite sensationalistic way. Efrafra 23:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The modifiers of "civilian" and "by an individual" keep gettting placed and then, for some reason removed.  I don't really know why.Chunky Rice 21:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I put "deadliest school shooting" for now. Gdo01 21:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The current term of "single-perpetrator mass murder" should seem accurate. If it is to be modified, then peacetime could be added to the term. --AEMoreira042281 15:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Any of those sound like accurate descriptors. I wonder why those terms were removed... Mycota 21:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Your comparative examples are arguable, in my opinion, so I deleted them from the media section. I agree that the comparative language by the media is overdone and inaccurate, but I doubt that comparing this incident to military massacres provides any better or more accurate perspective.  Should be in the historical context section anyway.Sfmammamia 22:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Although the first example was perpretrated by civilians, it was a different situation in that it was a mass attack, rather than done by an individual. I put this in the media criticism section since it was a response to media reports, rather than a general comment on historical relevance. Mycota 23:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed a number of times before - see here for the latest. The consensus was mass shooting - not sure I see a reason to change it. Ronnotel 01:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If a consensus does develop that there's a need for a change, I recommend single-perpetrator mass shooting, as the Bath school disaster was a single-perpetrator mass murder that killed more people in the US.  Rdfox 76 18:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically, it amounts to attaching enough adjectives to it to make it "work" and to save face for the short-memory media who went a bit off the deep end with this characterization. Wahkeenah 18:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The current wording was decided by consensus last week after several attempts to get it right.  "Modern" is indeed the qualifier that rules out both the Bath school disaster and Native American killings during the westward expansion.  Also, make sure the archives are checked to make sure you aren't changing something for which consensus has already been met. Scientz 19:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not the "deadliest mass shooting in modern US history" 

message: I think the source of Cho's anger was because of shunning. People stopped talking and associating with him out of fear and anger following his two stalking incidents some months earlier. Also, Cho talked about his "imaginary" friends Jelly (KY) and Spanky (Hand), a jocular figure of speech used by Cho to describe masturbation to his two room mates. This was misinterpreted by his roommates to indicate insanity, they ignored him out of fear and isolated him further.
The attempt at reaching out to the two women, was perhaps the first time Cho attempted to break out of his autistic isolation and emotionally connect with another human being. The result was police knocking on his door and a two-day stay in a mental hospital. This pattern seen in some young adults with autism and Asperger's syndrome, its is called "gaining insight". As autism alleviates, the autistic feels lonely and makes their first failed attempts at forming friendships and relationships. Cho's social skills were very poor, his initial attempts at sociality was met with ridicule, fear and persecution.
Cho's mention of Ishmael (Ishmail Ax), who was abandoned to the desert to die, indicates that Cho's predominant emotion was abandonment. If you look at the picture you can see how Cho might of felt. Diamonddavej 22:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:OR. Gdo01 22:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, but we regretfully cannot accept original research.  Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your information.  Thanks for your efforts, and happy editing!   szyslak (t, c) 23:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice woodcut, though. --Kizor 18:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motive - Feelings of Abandonment? 

message: As suggested in Wikipedia:Article size, I ran a preview of this article with all references removed. Even though I didn't remove all that wasn't "readable prose" (for example, I didn't cut the table of contents, lists or tables), the version without references didn't trigger the longpages warning. Therefore, even though the full wiki text totals out at around 60K give or take a few, readable prose is less than half that, below 32K even. szyslak (t, c) 23:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Woo hoo. I agree with you, I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Once the inital hype wears down the article will get cut to the "right" size, and relevant text will be moved their proper destinations. -Phoenix 01:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is NOT too long 

message: Here we go again. Now we have a bullet list of sporting and other tribute reactions -- this has the same problem with recentism as the sporting tributes section, which was deleted earlier per discussion. This will be going on for days, possibly weeks, could we please refrain?Sfmammamia 02:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other reactions 

message: now that more information is coming out about Cho Seung-hui's earlier life and problems, the order of the perpetrator section is getting a little wacky.  would a subsection under the first sentence or so the deals with the mental/behavorial problems he had through childhood and high school be too much expansion here?Sfmammamia 02:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  new subsection under "perpetrator"? 

message: The Norris Hall shootings section now contains details found only in blog postings -- those are the refs cited.  I've tried to remove them, but they've been reinstated. Other more experienced editors -- what say you?Sfmammamia 04:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Blogs fail WP:RS.  Using blogs to demonstrate a point about blogs violates WP:OR.  If we want to communicate a fact about this event, we need reliable sources.  If we want to communicate a fact about blogs, we still need reliable sources that make the point and not the source material.  In either event, the blogs have to go.  Rklawton 04:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I'm the one who reinstated Saved by the Blood. Guillermo Colman Personal Blog. 21 April 2007 into Norris Hall shooting. At first i was hesitant to include blog, but this blog belongs to Guillermo Colman himself, which is the first hand account of the shooting in the Hydrology Classroom. Please note: It is a direct account from the victim, not an original research. Therefore I think it warrants an exception, and I'd like to flag this blog inclusion in the references as an exception, according to WP:REDFLAG within the clause of Surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known and Surprising or apparently important reports of recent events not covered by reliable news media. Indeed media coverage on Colman's account has been minimal because according to his blog, he has been trying to avoid contact with the media and let himself recover. Nevertheless, the WHSV News and USA Today have included Colman's story from an interview, with content close to the blog entry. However, I still think inclusion of Colman's personal blog in the references section is still necessary, based on the Redflag reason above, and also to provide means for Wikipedia reader to contact Colman directly for cross checking by virtue of emails or blog comments. Chaerani 21:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with Chaerani here. To paraphrase someone smarter than me, the point of forums and blogs being given as non-credible is that their information usually comes from random guys on the Internet making stuff up. In this case the source personality is credible even if the medium itself isn't very. --Kizor 21:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  blog postings as refs? 

message: Just saw http://www.virginiatechmassacre.com/ go up as an external link (some sort of charity/support group site).  It doesn't really seem to fit the content of the other links, safe to remove? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spencewah (talk • contribs) 05:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doh, always forget to sign Spencewah 05:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I removed it because words like heroes and angels in one statement tell me they are either lunatics or just highly biased.--Svetovid 11:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: An article in Slate indicates the gunman went by Seung Cho and that his family used the Americanized form. 209.148.113.42 07:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A seeming consensus on this has been reached on this at Talk:Cho_Seung-hui#Naming_order_POLL_.28again.21.29 --Dynaflow 07:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho Seung-Hui vs Seung Hui Cho vs Seung Cho 

message: Should the current template remain on this page anymore? Not too much more will likely be added, barring a major development. --AEMoreira042281 13:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It should probably stay for another couple of weeks - until traffic dies down.  --BigDT (416) 15:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current anymore? 

message: Cho may have been 23 but wasn't his parents still paying tuition?  And he probably went back home during the summer!  So why weren't they informed that their child was having so much problem at school??  If his parents would have known, they would have pulled him out and none of this killing would have happened.  So for the sake of "privacy", 33 people were killed.  How silly and stupid.  I am quite surprised this issue has barely been raised, but I am quite positive Cho's family are wondering this. 66.171.76.138 14:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that Wikipedia does not include our own speculation or opinions in articles.  This is outside our scope. --BigDT (416) 15:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: FERPA.  --ElKevbo 17:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 'scuse me? tomasz. 18:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FERPA Dirtysocks 18:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: gotcha! thanks. tomasz. 19:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, an adult is an adult, no matter who might be giving them money. I'm 23 and my grandparents help me with my college tuition, but that doesn't mean that school calls them when I miss a day of classes or anything. This has actually been in the news occasionally in the last few years because there have been some suicides at college campuses, and the students were receiving counseling through the school. Then when they committed suicide, the parents got angry because they hadn't been notified that their child was having problems. I think one college may have been sued over this, but can't remember. Natalie 19:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A few colleges and universities have been involved in lawsuits related to the perceived legal responsibility of institutions to provide mental health care or act on mental health issues in particular ways.  It's a messy and evolving area of law but a very interesting one that seems to have few bright lines and clear-cut answers.  --ElKevbo 22:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Privacy 

message: The title of reference 86 is wrong - it's President Bush, not former President Clinton.
The Link of reference 106 is wrong: should be a short hyphen between 2007 and 04. Seems to be a special character actually. Can someone correct this please? I'am not allowed to ...  Daniel.zwink 15:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Bush/Clinton one is fixed.  I can't find the problem with 106.  Can you make sure that the number is still correct and if so, give more details on what should be changed.  Thanks. --BigDT (416) 15:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the meantime its reference 100 - the one with the text "U.S. gun culture costs lives!". It's the hyphen between 2007 and 04 in the URL, that is translated to "%E2%80%93" (at least in my firefox ;-). Daniel.zwink 17:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: The Columbine massacre occurred on a Tuesday of the third week of April, as did this. Have any sources in compliance with WP:RS seized on this yet? --AEMoreira042281 15:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: More notable of a connection is that Cho praised Harris and Klebold for being martyrs. Also notable is the student who attended Columbine in 1999, and also Virginia Tech during this ordeal. I believe both of these facts are noted in the article. -Phoenix 16:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Columbine connection? 

message: As was correctly pointed out above, this was not the "deadliest shooting in American history" as has been reported in the media. However, it was the deadliest shooting by a single perpetrator in American history. The media refers to this, accurately I think, as the "most deadly shooting spree in American history." Shouldn't this language be in the first paragraph and not buried in the article?--Mantanmoreland 16:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Incidentially, I was looking into other school disasters and found the following, horrific, incidents: Collinwood School Fire, New London School explosion, Our Lady of the Angels School Fire, Aberfan, Schoolhouse Blizzard. I'm not sure whether to be reassured or not by the implication that weather, fires and explosions are still more deadly than human-perpetrated killings. Carcharoth 16:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will add as follows to the lead paragraph: "It was the most deadly shooting spree by a solitary gunman in U.S. history."--Mantanmoreland 17:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some would define a shooting spree as solitary by nature, but let's not get into that, as there are two well known cases of pairs: 1 and 2 (huh? one of the killers there has been released from jail!). I would also avoid convoluted wording. Keep it simple, and split into two sentences if need be. Carcharoth 17:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes I think that is fine. You do need some sentence in lead to indicate the historical significance.--Mantanmoreland 21:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical character of shooting should be in lead paragraph 

message: Somebody on /b/ made a post about killing people at vtech and changed the date to make it look like it was from before the incident. This shop then appeared as fact in a major Swedish (I think) newspaper.  This is a pretty big piece of misinformation, maybe it could go in the "false reports" article or something?  In b4 some wikifag says "it has something to do with 4chan and is therefor unworthy." -Anonymous
:Congratulations.  That last sentence completely undermined what was a fairly decent argument by revealing you to just be another /b/tard out to glorify his pathetic little den of nastiness by linking it to a tragedy.  (And before anyone yells at me, in case you didn't know, "/b/tard" is the name used by readers of 4chan's "/b/" board, the one that produces such lovely things as stupid memes and this sort of hoax.)  Rdfox 76 18:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, yes, but please try to keep yourself calm. There's no point in being uncivil. Anyhow, a section about the role of new media is in planning, and this might be worth mentioning there since it is, after all, a pretty big piece of misinformation. I'll get back on that in time. --Kizor 18:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: it's not unworthy cuz it has to do with 4chan, it's just not that much of a story. there's a good deal of discussion about it in the archives. tomasz. 18:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one said we couldn't discuss it because it was on 4chan - anons were claiming that it wasn't a hoax, and we were using the fact that it was on 4chan to keep it out of the article because it wasn't real. There's a big difference. Natalie 20:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  4Chan Troll 

message: I don't think the amount that where killed at the VT shooting should include him. I would state my reasoning, but I'd rather let you figure it out. To put it very, very, very nicely, he is a piece of crap. The template should be changed to Victims and Shooters or something else.
Nwbeeman 20:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But he was killed in the shootings.  It's an objective fact.  --ElKevbo 20:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yup; it's not something that's up for discussion, there have been plenty of worse incidents in the world of mass murder by one guy and they are always counted in the fatality total. -Phoenix 22:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're letting your feelings cloud your judgement. That decision is not for us to make. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.148.28.80 (talk) 22:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Fatality = dead.  Seung-hui Cho = dead.  Seung-hui Cho = fatality.  It's pretty simple math. --Dynaflow 23:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's logic you are using there, not maths... Carcharoth 00:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I dont think he should be counted in fatalities 

message: I think this idiotic claim by NBC and ABC and a few other sources should be added to the innacurate media section. For whatever 'railing' should mean, the videos themselves have shown Cho to be someone who likens himself to Jesus, not one who hates Jesus and those who follow him. Religious propaganda like this is damaging and only furthers hate reactions to this incident. Even if Cho is condemning Christians on videos not yet released, his ramblings are either incoherant or only in the sense of the "not true Christians" typical argument. There are other huge propaganda methods being used by major media sources to identify him as a muslim well before that can be known. I haven't heard of a video where he mentions infidels or Muhammad either and Just as well I have never headr of Muslim evangelists being in South Korea. Maybe we should create a "false media page of the virginia tech massare" and add a link here to it, since so many people validly argue that this one page is getting long as it is. Whatever happens we should not sacrifice any valid information entirely. -youngidealist edited:209.129.85.4 21:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this may belong on his article rather than here but anyway, yes I have seen no specific quote of his that supports that he hates Christianity or that he is Muslim. This probably stems from the Ismail thing. Gdo01 21:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I haven't seen the video nor do I care too, but keep in mind that we don't go for novel syntheses of facts here. If the media is characterizing his rants as anti-Christian, it's not our place to call that claim inaccurate unless we can attribute that analysis to other secondary sources. That doesn't mean we should include something if we know/believe it to be false, but, rather, that we publish other attributable claims, not our own conclusions. --BigDT (416) 21:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can understand if this is already established in the wikipedia guidelines, but I gotta say, I think it's a dumb rule. If censorship of the internet ever increases, this will only serve as a harbor for what would eventually be just anothr conservapidia if you make it clear that no obvious or self-observable points can be made.-youngidealist 209.129.85.4 21:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh?  Wikia, among plenty of other websites, offers free Wiki hosting where you are free to setup a website that holds any POV you want or draw whatever conclusions you want.  But Wikipedia's goal isn't to make a political statement or any such thing.  We can reconsider that policy if and when the internet becomes an Orwellian environment. --BigDT (416) 21:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It is dumb, but it is not a rule, even though many people seem to think it is. Wikipedia is under no obligation to present as true information for which we have independent evidence saying it is false, and in fact we should actually actively search and remove such misinformation because it goes against the fundamental principles of an encyclopedia. If you see statements that do this, please don't believe the argument that it is the wikipedia policy. Sad mouse 22:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: We don't go for novel synthesis of facts, however since we have the primary sources we can use them to verify secondary sources. Primary sources always take dominance over secondary sources, and if a primary source shows the secondary source to be incorrect we do not include the secondary source (unless it is noteworthy in itself, in which case it should be presented in the context of the correct primary source). Wikipedia is not a place to just repeat any claim made in the media. Sad mouse 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So if someone wants to take a primary source (NBC) and note that it contradicts itself between the video shown and the verbal statements made by the news casters, then that can be put in the article right? So, all someone needs to do is quote NBC's anchor that said it and quote Cho straight from the video to make this point, right? Would anyone mind doing this? I think it's really important to point out these false assumptions to the best of our ability in the article. Youngidealist 17:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems valid and worthy, if you have the time that would be a good contribution. Sad mouse 17:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I added it. Let me know what you think. I'm a bit new to contributing to wikipedia so I'm not sure if there's anything I missed. The second reference is NBC's videos of Cho. I would have used the same report video that falsely claimed Cho as "railing against Christianity", but I don't like how they are practically telling us what he's saying right before he says it, and some people who look at it will possibly be confused by hypnotic suggestion. Also, I might have tried youtube for a video that will likely remain in place, but I'm not sure if that's prefered on Wikipedia. Youngidealist 17:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Railing Against Christianity 

message: is this taken into account? --Striver - talk 21:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The Bath School disaster is mentioned in the article. Thanks for the link. Carcharoth 21:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A blog of someone with a bone to pick isn't a great source. News reports generally refer to this as the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history, not the deadliest massacre or school incident. See Virginia Tech massacre#Historical context. Phony Saint 21:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Accurate news reports will use deadliest shooting is modern US history. However, I've seen many drop the modern and thus leave out many of the 19th century massacres from Utah, etc.. :( Hopefully, more reporters will start checking here first. Ronnotel 00:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not worst 

message: According to the picture "Aerial photo showing location of Norris and West Ambler Johnston Halls." in the first part of the article, would it be possible to locate the post office where the packet to NBC was sent? Also, where was Cho's dormitory? It would give the picture about what distances he had to make between the first shooting and the masacre. (It would give a better insight to the situation, I mean how many more people could spot (and stop) him before he started the killing spree, maybe some police office on the way in between, ect.)  Merewyn 21:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that would be a great addition to not only the article, but the picture. --wpktsfs 22:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: "spot and stop him"? Don't be silly. He had guns on open display? I presume he had them hidden under a coat, or something. Carcharoth 22:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, but highlighting the post office would be great. Carcharoth 22:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In his biography, at least, it is mentioned that his dormitory was "just west" of the dorm where he shot the first two people, and other sources have said it was Harper Hall. As to where the post office was, I have no idea. Natalie 23:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From memory, top right of the picture. Some news website will be bound to have it highlighted, and failing that, Google Maps is your friend (look up the Post Office address). Carcharoth 00:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That expression, incidently, was the result of media sensationalism after one violent incident by a post office worker. Natalie 23:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the expression soon gained the public's stamp of approval. Wahkeenah 01:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  ZIP it. HalfShadow 01:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post office 

message: Right now the lead says 17 were injured, and the infobox says 29. Which one is right? Natalie 23:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The discrepancies stems from the fact that people were injured jumping out of windows and what not.  I suppose seventeen were actually shot. -Phoenix 23:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. Would anyone mind if I changed it to "shot 49 people, killing 32 and injuring 17, before committing suicide"? Natalie 23:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems reasonable, as long as it's true and sourced! └Jared┘┌talk┐  23:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, there is more confusion: the "Victims" section states: "Excluding the deceased gunman, there were 61 people shot: 32 people were killed, and 29 were injured." Yargh. Natalie 23:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So perhaps seventeen were injured indirectly, such as jumping out of windows? -Phoenix 01:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I think someone misread a source somewhere - some of the news websites had information on how many wounded people went to various specific hospitals, so someone may have read "17 wounded were transported to Memorial Hospital" or whatever, and thought that was the total number. Or I'm just totally wrong. I'll hunt around on the internet. Natalie 01:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  injured number conflicts again 

message: Articles on several of the victims have been created, and every single one of them has been nominated for deletion.  This is starting to get counterproductive.  Let us resolve this in a more practical manner: hold a single discussion on whether or not those people would merit separate articles — and this includes the point of whether or not any information that might surface in the next few weeks should be enough to merit a separate article (or should it just be included in this one).  If anything, make it two separate discussions: one for the students and another for the faculty.  As far as the students are concerned, the situation is rather similar: they were not notable prior to this incident, and have become notable solely in connection with it.  This clearly makes it possible for a single decision to be made that would apply to them all.  Once this is done, we would be able to apply it immediately — if it is decided that those articles should exist, then any AfD on them would be speedly closed on sight; if it is decided that they shouldn't, then all entries created would be deleted (possibly with any relevant information added being merged into this article).If we don't do that, then we will end up having to go through +30 AfDs, all with the exact same merit.  Redux 03:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno.  Michael Jordan's father got an article, and he was only famous because of his son and his murder.  Rklawton 04:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: While I would agree, the student articles should be treated as a group (altho from what I can tell, the Emily one is the only one left), I would disagree for the professors. Firstly, for I think 2 of them, a consensus has already been reached that they are noteable per WP:PROF. The other two are still being consider per WP:PROF and perhaps other criteria. However the key thing here is because they are different people with different histories we can't consider them together. Each has to be considered with it's own merits. In fact, even Emily should probably be treated seperately from other students. Altho I don't think there is any merit to keep the article on her at the current time, given the fact that she was the first and there are rumours she may have been targetted, it's better to consider her seperately. For other students, if there is nothing that makes them that unique in terms of notability, they should be considered in bulk (but since there doesn't appear to be any, this is peobably unnecessary) Nil Einne 13:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Emily Hilscher isn't the only one left - Waleed Shaalan has an article (currently in AfD). I agree that the professors need to be considered separately, since there is a good chance they may have met the notability standard. But I doubt that we will find our that any of the students met the standard, so any articles on them would be inappropriate. Natalie 15:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I largely agree. Waleed Shaalan and I just noticed Partahi Mamora Halomoan Lumbantoruan appear to be similar to Ryan C. Clarke earlier, cases where it's claimed the people were somewhat heroic. Those 2 can probably be considered together and likely should be deleted. Some degree are 'heroism' is IMHO simply not enough to merit an article, it can be adequetly covered here. If they are awarded a medal or something of that sort then possibly although that should probably still just be covered in their articles. There are [erhaps some circumstances which could lead to some of the deceased students becoming noteable in the future but as I often say, wikipedia is not a crystal ball and we wait for that to happen not anticipate it will happen Nil Einne 16:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeing as it was going to happen anyway, I put Partahi Mamora Halomoan Lumbantoruan on AFD. Evil Monkey - Hello 22:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Optimize decision-making process 

message: Is it too early to discuss the lead of this article before rewriting it, or are we waiting for the article to stabilize?  Perhaps we should consider developing a brief outline here on the discussion page, summarizing the key points, etc.  I'd also like to suggest simplifying first sentence.  In my opinion, the present sentence tries a little too hard to cover everything in one go.  Something along the lines of "The Virginia Tech massacre occurred on April 16, 2007, on the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University campus in Blacksburg, Virginia" or similar could be a good start, and subsequent sentences further develop the entry.  Anyway, the idea here is to discuss the lead in some detail before any edits are made. JordanSealy 08:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, In case it's changed it currently says "The Virginia Tech massacre was a university shooting that unfolded as two separate attacks approximately two hours apart on April 16, 2007, on the campus of the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia, United States." I've just woken up, so I'll recuse myself for a while. --Kizor 09:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Lead - discussion 

message: The photo to the right has been released under the GFDL.  Basically, the PSU student section made a large VT at their college football spring game.  --BigDT (416) 13:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo from PSU tribute 

message: I'll leave it to others to determine whether they want to try and make use of some of the initial details here  at this time, or wait until the full reports are released and digested by the press. W.C. 22:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autopsies completed 

message: Two of Cho's plays can be found at this url:
http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001
209.212.89.242 17:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. This would bring more unwanted attention to this sad human being which would have only helped get his point accross. I think the article on him is big enough as it is as well as the media attention. Let's keep it the way it is. CharlieP216 18:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The comments in the video and the manifesto provide insight into the motive. If we took a moral position not to address the rhetoric of evildoers Wikipedia wouldn't have articles on Hitler or Hussein.TimB 05:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Tim and the creator of this section. The above quotes from Cho and more are important quotes that are worth taking from the video to expand upon. The least we should do is post his quotes separately from the article so that people who want to can reference them. -youngidealist68.231.200.13 04:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: "This would bring more unwanted attention to this sad human being which would have only helped get his point across"
Which is exactly what must be done. How can we deal with madmen if we don't know what's going on in their heads. Lunatics generally show warning signs or fixate on certain things, it's how we identify them early, and what better way to spot a lunatic than by being aware of their lunacy so that we know it when we see it.
The foreign media is making something of the fact that he felt (rightly or wrongly) that he was outside of the American Dream, and that people inside it were mocking him, so they think that it's important.
perfectblue 09:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Could someone please transcribe the full text of the known video clips and put it somewhere (maybe Wikisource)?  Readers don't want to go to an external web site and install unwanted software to sit through drivel by a madman, but we might skim.  More importantly, right now it is easier to justify this as "fair use" and NBC probably would still be embarrassed to claim copyright on the text (maybe?).  Also, the statements that "most" clips were released make me wonder what the rest were about - a scorecard of what's out and what's been suppressed would be nice.204.186.20.241 22:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  You also might want to add 

message: I take Psychology course in high school we are on the chapter of psychotic illness so after this occured my teacher asked us to figure out what kind was the killer suffering from. i have reached the conclusion of Paranoid Scrizophrenia. But i am still surprised because what would aggrivate him so much that he would do this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Missionimpossible (talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look up ASPD Spencewah 03:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The anon has been warned.--Dynaflow 22:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: How about finding a more reliable source than a person who writes about past lives and mind control? Phony Saint 19:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe this: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/4/19/194210.shtml?s=lh
or that: http://www.healyprozac.com/ 201.19.199.254 14:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, no. The first barely mentions Cho, let alone it speculates based on media reports; the second doesn't talk about Cho at all. Until a reliable news source writes specifically about Cho confirmed to be on a specific type of drug, we shouldn't mention it. This isn't the place to speculate. Phony Saint 14:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychotic illness 

message: In the portion of the article mentioning that Cho was bullied in high school, I think it might be relevant to note that his classmates said "Go back to China."  The reference about the high school bulling does mention it.  Why is this relevant?  It just shows that certain segments of the population cannot tell the difference between a Chinese, Japanese, or a Korean.  Recall for instance, that several news coporations at first claimed that the perpetuator is a Chinese national.  I also remeber WWII posters produced by the US government that tried to let Americans to determine the difference between a Japanese and a Chinese.  The main point is that there are racial stereotypes involved, but we don't need to promote this POV except to say that Cho's classmates told him "Go back to China" even though he was for all practical purposes a Korean-American. 61.229.182.23 15:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only problem with what you're saying is that this is not an article about racial prejudice in the United States, it's an article about a shooting that occurred at Virginia Tech. I'm not disagreeing with the point you're trying to make, but the fact of the matter is that it is entirely irrelevant to the article, as it is not directly related to the article itself. Unless it's shown that the shooter acted specifically because people mistook him for being Chinese (which I sincerely doubt), the material is irrelevant. Remember, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. 96.224.58.54 23:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um...you would think if racism was an issue Cho would have volunteered that information in his 1,800 word rant.  Kransky 01:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that this might be irrelevant, but somehow bias might have contributed to Cho's anger, so please describe this possibility. 24.131.202.186 05:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I for one feel that it is a very, very big part of Cho's history, and should be included in Cho's article, not in the VTM article. It is relevant to the shooting though. --wpktsfs 06:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Go back to China" 

message: Just wanted to congratulate editors who worked on the international reactions section. The John Howard part in particular is IMHO a lot better. As I've mentioned before, the CNN characterisation of it as an attack on (decrying) the negative gun culture of the US was clearly inaccurate as if you see what he said (and consider the upcoming election), it's quite obvious what he's trying to say. Nil Einne 16:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I suggest that you give your reasoning for why the international reactions section should remain in the article or be removed, in the straw poll above? It has been proposed for deletion. Sad mouse 21:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Howard 

message: Should we list the statuses of the victims? I know 27 were injured. Just by looking at the list you don't know if they are the ones that were killed , injured, or if the list is a combination of both.ShadowWriter 17:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the injured people's names have been released, so all of those people on the list are people who died. I can make sure it's clear who the list refers to. Natalie 17:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Many of the names have been released, but a partial list deleted from the List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre page a while back. I'm unsure whether to put them back. -Halo 14:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victim Status 

message: Does anyone know why so many of the dates are redlinked in the ISO format (for me, anyway)?  I assume this has to do with the changes recently made (and undone) to the cite web template but I don't know what this would be happening given my (very limited) knowledge of that template.  Anyone know what's going on?  It looks quite ugly and seems indicative of a larger problem (but perhaps one limited just to me).  --ElKevbo 02:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it's linking the whole date, including year - the difference between 23 April 2007 and 23 April 2007. That's the only thing I can think of that would do that. Natalie 04:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: i fixed a few of these yesterday. looks to me like someone's replaced the hyphens in dates (e.g. 2007-20-04) with – ndashes. tomasz. 10:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redlinked dates in references 

message: I changed the formatting for the list of victims so that victims are organized by classroom. WhisperToMe 05:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes in formatting for victim list in the "List of victims" article 

message: It seems inappropriate to have a sub-topic like this, I've removed it. It was only one sentence which couldn't really be expanded on and was purely related to gun control which appears later on, at length, in the same article. There was also no need to have a large video thumbnail for such a tiny subtopic, and the link seemed to lead to various videos that had nothing to do with gun control (perhaps spam?). If anyone disagrees with this removal, feel free to reverse, but please reply with a reason :-) Mentality 13:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Smells spammy to me.  I concur with its excision.  --Dynaflow 13:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree, i almost removed it myself, at the least extremly POV in relation this article. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Online video response 

message: For now, I have reverted the title change back to Virginia Tech massacre. This type of change needs to be discussed, first I think. More importantly, it needs to be attributable. I believe the most common usage in the media is Virginia Tech massacre, hence we must use that term as well. I'm open to counter-arguments, but please cite policy when you do so. Thanks. Ronnotel 16:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know google hits is a stupid metric, but FWIW, virginia tech massacre gets 2.5M hits, while virginia polytechnic institute massacre gets exactly 4. Ronnotel 16:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The legal name is "Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University".  The common name is "Virginia Tech".  Their logo uses "VT" - an abbreviation derived from their common name.  It makes little sense to use the organization's legal name in this context.  We're not writing legal documents here.  We're writing an encyclopedia article, and the key to good writing is clarity.  Rklawton 16:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No one ever refers to it as Virginia Polytechnic Institute. Even my grandparents say Virginia Polytech or VPI. You're way off. --Haizum    μολὼν λαβέ 16:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you mean by "You're way off" when you're all agreeing -Halo 17:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, this is rediculous.  I have changed all VPI references back to VT.  Whoever made the change just did a blind search and replace.  They changed it in interwiki links, the Commons link, and references (in other words, misquoting the source).  There is no way that any such change was made in good faith. --BigDT (416) 17:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Side issue, but 'good faith' is a loaded term. Let's just say the changes were a bit on the bold side of the BRD cycle. Ronnotel 17:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Has whoever made this unilateral change been approached? I'd much rather tell them now why what they did isn't correct than have them show up in a few days and re-make the change. Natalie 23:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virginia Polytechnic Institute massacre??? 

message: Visit the website here "After the VA Tech Massacre" for photo's that are being added to show more about the campus around VA Tech and the beauty there along with the sadness. Debbie M. 24.254.6.200 18:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you be willing to contribute photos that you personally photographed from your collection to Wikipedia?  If so, please make an account and see Wikipedia:Fromowner.  In order for Wikipedia to use an image, it has to be released under a free license - either under the GFDL or into the public domain - so nothing from your site can currently be used here, but if you would like to contribute one or more photos under a free license, they would be greatly appreciated. --BigDT (416) 19:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Website set up for Pictures around VA Tech after the massacre.. 

message: There's an article on Max Karson, a university student expelled for comments on the massacre, at the University of Colorado. IT's currently at WP:AFD (Articles of Deletion), and some people say it should be merged here. Please leave your opinion. 132.205.44.134 22:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Max Karson 

message: Why is it necessary to mention the shooter's nation of birth in the lead of this article?  It doesn't seem to be important enough for this article.  --ElKevbo 19:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree.  His nationality (not birth) is important for two reasons.  He is not an American citizen, but the shooting is characterized as an American shooting.  Secondly, there were false media reports that the gunman was a Chinese national (as detailed later in the article).  Cho was also teased to "Go back to China" as a high schooler.  Thus the confusion over his nationality is very real and should be clarified at the first mention of his name.  The fact that he is a permanent resident of the US means very little, Seung-Hui Cho has no voting rights in the US and could have faced deportation to South Korea had he committed a less atrocious felony and not killed himself. --Naus 19:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, until very recently, all school shootings in the US had been perpetrated by middle class white students, and the media regarded it as a suburban phenomenon. The Red Lake High School massacre was the first US school shooting where the gunman was white and poor. Granted, we can't point all of this out in the article, as it's original synthesis, but we can point out that the gunman was a South Korean national. Natalie 20:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh?  We can't state something but we can insinuate it?  --ElKevbo 20:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What insinuation?  That this massacre was not committed by a middle class white American? It wasn't.  --Naus 20:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Placing one solitary fact in the lead of this article to attempt to provide our own "balance" and "prove the media's theories wrong" is not what we do here.  We don't engage in original research or opinion-making directly or subtly.  --ElKevbo 20:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: i tend to agree with Three Ways. tomasz. 20:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not at all about "remembering up to age 8," it's about fitting in as a young immigrant and being teased as a result of this ("Go back to China"). Seung-Hui Cho did not magically know how to speak English once he arrived in the US at age 8. That Seung-Hui Cho is a South Korean national is an important encyclopedic fact as discussed above. --Naus 20:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That all seems like speculation verging on OR.  --ElKevbo 20:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, you should tell HtcWiki that as I was addressing his speculation.  My position is what I wrote in my first response to you above.  You want to tell me what is OR about that? --Naus 20:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both of the statements, yours and HtcWiki's, appear to be OR to me.  One or both could be true as I haven't closely followed the media reports about the shooter in the past few days; apologies if my knowledge is out of date.  --ElKevbo 20:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This is not a sufficient argument to keep it. It was reported in our media to the Korean government, not generated from -- this story has already been construed as some kind of a international situation when it is purely domestic. Seung-Hui Cho developed his mental issues and inabilities here in the United States and under the influence of American culture and the English language. Regardless of "early warning signs" or supposed autism, the true manifestation of his psychology happened on U.S. soil and society. This is all very clear and clearly now, the news has decided to stop talking about him as a South Korean national. Also we know he grew up middle-class and particularly in a wealthy area, he is not merely a young immigrant and we have no right to judge the situation or place it in a perspective that is not the facts themselves: middle-class family who happened to be Asian. Ie Harris isn't a British American and McVeigh isn't a Scottish American. Wikipedia is an international product, right now we are white-ing it out by inducing the topic of race and nationality when NO connection has been established yet. Davumaya 01:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In response I refer you back to what I originally said:  Keep if for no other reason than the Korean government and public made it an issue.  Your comments about Seung-Hui Cho developing a mental illness due to the influence of American culture sound a bit loopy (if not insulting).  Why not say his Korean background made it unbearable for him to be in the shadow of his Princeton graduate sister?   Kransky 13:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Korean background?" Please save me the disgust of having to call you out as a racist. If it's the judgement of the Wikipedia community to white-out this incident as a case of "that poor immigrant" then I guess I can't stop racism in its tracks. No one speaks about Dylan Klebold's Jewish ancestry being a laughable irony with his Nazism. The Asian American Journalists Association did issue a press release urging the media covering the tragedy to “avoid using racial identifiers unless there is a compelling or germane reason.” I suggest someone place that in a useful spot to soften the slander we're commiting. Davumaya 07:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow...talk about somebody with issues (and you stalking around my User:Kransky page was a bit creepy).  My original point was complementary of the Korean government and people for going any responsibility they needed to take for Cho.  Then you said that Cho's actions were due to American culture; I was just raising the stakes in this pretty tawdy argument.  It is you who is making Wikipedia a soapbox. Kransky 10:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  I am going on media reports from international and Korean sources (BBC, Korea Times).  I also don't think the Korean people needed to feel ashamed for the actions of one person, but that is the way many felt.Kransky 10:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shooter's nation of birth in lead? 

message: The New York Times has done an article on this page. Good work everyone, all 2,074 of us! -Ravedave 06:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We have been mentioned a few times in coverage of the role of new media, but an article dedicated to this page is another thing entirely. Good work, folks. I'd be obliged if someone with a paper copy could scan this and link to it here - it'd go a long way towards explaining what I've been doing to my course instructor. --Kizor 14:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ) --Kizor 20:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The account used to contact me made its first and only edit in doing so, though it was registered in January. No reason to think that he did, especially not when the point of his article is trying to make sense of Wikipedia's process from an outsider's perspective. --Kizor 20:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, see that, thanks. Ronnotel 20:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you not have email set up, Kizor? I got an email from him instead of on-wiki contact. Natalie 23:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I do. I got both, the contact slightly before the e-mail. This might be because I'm special. Incidentally, excellent work there. --Kizor 09:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, specialness. I have to remember to pick some of that up next time I'm at Target. :) Natalie 13:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NYT article on this page 

message: Arguably one of the most mitigating factors along with his mental illness.  Why does the article make no mention of this? DutchSeduction 07:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How is being enrolled in a class a "mitigating factor"? What about everyone else who was enrolled in that class? Wahkeenah 07:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of Cho's school records could lead to mitigating factors. If there is a valid source for this information then I think that it is a reasonable point to make, that at least Cho might have learned the first names of the Columbine shooters and felt that he understood them as well as the unibomber by being influenced in this class. It would make a great argument to not allow students who show a history of violent or threatening actions to be a part of abnormal psychology courses. I think the fact is a good one to point out if only for that potential speculation. Youngidealist 09:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does not speculate.  Wikipedia records fact, nothing more.  At least, that's the idea.  Some articles speculate, but that does not mean they are correct in doing so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.64.3.68 (talk) 11:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can report on the speculations of others, of course, if this is mentioned in an editorial by a prominent pundit or something of that nature. Even in that case, though, I think the information would be a better fit in Cho's article than in this one. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 21:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho was enrolled in a VA Class on Horror Films and Serial Killers 

message: Currently the top infobox says:
:Motive: Hatred against specific classes, revenge for prior bullying
I see these as gross assumptions. I'm still somewhat new to wikipedia and am finding it difficult to search the discussion archives for this topic. Was this motive arrived at through discussion? I note that the article on the Columbine shootings still says, "Motive: Unclear".  Other views?Sfmammamia 20:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are absolutely right Sf - we should not be listing a motive until it is sourced. I have changed it back and would suggest that any unsourced changes to the motive be reverted. Natalie 23:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather than debate his motives (to what end, I wonder?), I have simply removed the tag from the infobox. I assert that nothing of value will be lost. Ronnotel 21:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  motive: current phrasing in infobox 

message: An editor (perhaps more than one) keeps inserting a reference to Kangalert.com in the middle of the "Law enforcement response" subsection.  The editor who has most recently inserted this link wrote on my Talk page that "i just came accross the link a few days ago in the news and thought it was pertinent there. I know it could appear as linkspam, but i figure people's lives could be at stake in the future if we DON'T include it."
I object to using this article as a means of advertising this or any other product.  I have removed the reference several times and I ask editors to (a) cease from inserting this material and (b) remove it if it inserted again.  Unless there is a clear connection between this company and this incident, it should not be in this article and certainly not slapped in the middle of that section.  If there is such a connection that I have missed, I apologize.  But right now it looks like old fashioned spam and unwelcome advertisement that has no place in this or any other encyclopedia article.  --ElKevbo 20:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely.  While the service may be legitimate, it'd be like posting a link to Geico on the Princess Diana web page.  It's completely in poor taste.  If your service is legitimate and useful there are more appropriate ways of getting the word out about it.  Most obviously would be simply calling campuses and talking with administrators about their concerns. SteveRyherd 20:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I sent Spicynugget the gentlest possible warning about spamming.  If the link continues to show up, escalate accordingly.  --Dynaflow 21:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It showed up again today.  We have our own bot-assisted spam list somewhere that we may need to put it on. --BigDT 14:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kangalert.com 

message: I respecfully disagree with ElKevbo, for I am in law enforcement and part of the problem that the Virginia Tech Administration and campus safety faced was there inability to communicate with the students in real - time.  The kanga link does look like spam at first - but there are a few reasons it is not:  I think there was something like a two hour delay before the students got an EMAIL.  As editors of wikipedia it is our job to ensure that pertinent information is delivered to our readers, ESPECIALLY if it could save lives.  We are not even sure that this incident is completely over, threats continue to surface nationwide .  
Editors should insert the kanglink because:
  - students have a right to know about this type of company
  - law enforcement personell have the right to know about about this type of company
  - its not linkspam if we include other companies like kangalert who can notify students in the event of a crisis.
  - there is a clear connection between this company and the incident
its a bit like trying to talk about the world trade center incident without mentioning Guilianni.  If we try to censor out Guilianni from 9-11 we have done our readers an injustice, just as if we try to censor kangalert.  I am not saying that kangalert is the 07 equivilant of a Guilianni, I am saying it just looks suspicious when ElKevbo perhaps wants to supress information that could help.--65.214.112.56 20:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally disagree.  Your comparison is completely arguable.  Guiliani has a place in an article about 9-11 because he played a central role in the aftermath as the mayor of New York. A "right to know," as you put it, does not extend to including, discussing, or referencing companies who provide related services. That's advertising, and wikipedia does not do it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sfmammamia (talk • contribs) 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree, widespread WP policy is to remove references to commercial products, especially when they could be seen as an endorsement. I see nothing suspicious in ElKevbo's behavior, most Wikipedians are pretty aggressive about stomping on spam when they see it. Ronnotel 21:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the anons logic we should have links to smoke detector companies in fire, for life jacket companies in boat, and for helmet companies in motorcycle. Natalie 23:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Keep Kangalert. The main difference between Kangalert and ads for fire and smoke detectors is that people know about fire and smoke detectors and use them with religious fervor.  University Administrations and Student advocate groups have no clue that Kangalert exists and can notify students on their cell phones instantly in the event of a crisis.  If we fail to mention Kangalert, we have become so extreme in our anti-commerce view that we are threatening the lives of young people trying to learn.  The more appropriate question probably, then is not whether or not to include Kangalert, but whether or not we as responsible editors should include, discuss, or reference companies that really could save lives.  People already know about smoke detectors. People don't know about kangalert, and that is one of the reasons this crisis was so horrid.  If we choose to taboo a company - just because its a company - it seems like a grave judgement error, and the blood of future students could be on our hands. Widespread WP policy is to remove references to commercial products, especially when they could be seen as an endorsement - that should be the case - in every case except for this case.67.184.156.250 14:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can do without the spam. Mentioning the company by name in no way, shape, or form, is necessary to get the idea across. --BigDT 14:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is relevant information in the cited article, such as the fact that VT police had been investigating a text messaging system at the time of the incident. However, there's no mention of Kangalert by name, nor should there be in the article. Ronnotel 14:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made a request to have Shadowbot blacklist this domain. That should take care of it. --BigDT 15:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good deal. We should still look out for mentions of the company sans links, as the IPs agitating for its inclusion have yet to demonstrate any direct connection to this event. Natalie 15:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit not Censor 

message: recently, MyDeathSpace.com posted a list of the victims, including Ryan Clarke. the link is here. do you think we should post these? Nocarsgo 22:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. The victims' personal web pages are not relevant to this article. Phony Saint 23:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MySpace links are generally frowned upon, particularly in an article which is about an event that involved many people. The only situation I can think of where MySpace links might be okay is individual bios/band articles, but I'm really not sure if those are even considered acceptable. Natalie 23:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A diary on MySpace is acceptable under the same circumstances as other blogs: If we're attributing a direct quote or opinion voiced by the writer of the blog, it's OK for that purpose, but if it's used as factual verification, that's not kosher. Since all of these people are dead, it's a moot point in this case (but for example, if Cho had posted an online diary before the shootings, we could pull quotes from that and say, "Cho said, "X.") -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 21:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  victims myspace pages 

message: The reference for the following paragraph doesn't support the statement (about the Korean car accident involving the US military vehicle):
:There was later criticism of the Korean government's overly defensive posture, and some commentators contrasted the lack of a backlash in the U.S. to the Korean public's passionate response when a U.S. military vehicle in Korea accidentally killed two girls."Fears of Backlash are Misplaced", The Korea Times, April 20, 2007
--Anchoress 03:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it does.  Scroll down to the paragraph that starts "Consider: in 2002, when a US military vehicle ran over two girls in a street, Koreans came out en masse to hold candles in protest outside the American embassy." Kransky 07:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it does now. ;-) But that wasn't the article that the link opened to when I posted the question. Anyways, fixed now. Thanks for notifying us. Anchoress 07:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference issue with Korean reaction 

message: The photo with 2 guns looks like a movie. Do we want more "stars" like this? I don't think we should participate in mass murderer's self-promotion. Even sensationalist media outlets that showed his video had second thoughts. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My first reaction was it looked like a video game character. Considering the discussion surrounding our supposed culture of violence, I think it's extremely appropriate. 66.57.224.66 03:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Anybody who sees that photo as a glorification while knowing who is portrayed in it is messed up in the head.--Svetovid 11:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is not universal thing seen as glorifying, nor do we know what he would have considered glorifying, so I really don't think we can remove anything that may possibly be seen to be positive in any way. I, for one, think the photos he sent to NBC are really embarrassing, but that's just me. Natalie 13:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glorifying the murderer 

message: Does anyone know if indeed the guns were purchased legally? I ask because I heard somewhere Cho lied on his background check about whether he had mental health issues.  If he lied, the purchase was not legal.  Might be a technicality, but even minor details are important in cases like these. 66.57.224.66 03:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This New York Times article says that he should have been inelligible, but it sounds like it was a mistake on the part of the state of Virginia. Apparently there is a mismatch between Virginia law and federal law on what constitutes "adjudicated as a mental defective" and his court-ordered outpatient treatment wasn't registered in whatever database they check for gun purchases. They don't mention whether or not Cho lied on the application, but I'm guessing that he didn't given their focus on the missing information in the database. Natalie 13:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the questions on the form 4473 asks if the purchaser has ever been "committed to a mental institution".  Answering in the affirmative means the dealer will decline the sale, so Cho therefore must have replied "no".  I'm not sure what the process is for purchasing a firearm in a case where you'd have to answer "yes" to a question (like "have you been convicted of a felony") but the restriction no longer applies (like you have been pardoned).  scot 13:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, but being ordered to undergo outpatient counseling and being committed to a mental institution are different things. Apparently, though, the federal law specifies having been "adjudicated a mental defective" and would have considered the judge-ordered outpatient counseling as such. The Virginia law, OTOH, didn't register that required counseling as an adjudification (word?) of mental defectivity, so he didn't show up when they checked their databases. The question on the form doesn't seem to cover all of the law, which is odd. Natalie 15:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Legal purchase' 

message: under other media responses, it notes that the CV claims other school shootings
ended abrubtly when armed citizens took action, however going thru the records
of all shootings to occur on college campuses, there has only been 1 such case.
I think if Wiki is gonna echo this agendaed claim, we must also provide an accurtae
portrayl in order to retain credibilty.
:The article specifically attributes that quote to CV (though it should attribute it to Platt), and it specifically states that "All the school shootings that have ended abruptly in the last ten years were stopped because a law-abiding citizen—a potential victim—had a gun." There were two such incidents: the Appalachian School of Law shooting and the Pearl High School shooting. (2 out of 22 is a bit small to be making conclusions, however.) Phony Saint 01:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two of them did, as I said. (Did you look at them?) I took my count from school shootings. Abruptly ending is a vague term, though. Phony Saint 02:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Why an admin? They don't quite have the final say. The CV is about as POV as the Brady Campaign above it, and the governor makes a statement (just below those two paragraphs) about how they're both insensitive for using the incident for their own purposes. I think it can stand for now. Phony Saint 20:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Conservative Voice 

message: An Opinion Dynamics poll recently found that 76 percent of Americans believe stricter gun laws would not help to prevent shootings like this in the future. Since this constitutes a very strong majority, in light of the gun control debate presented in this article it might be worthy to mention this somewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk) 13:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it merits inclusion.  This just tells us what one set of Americans had to say in a particular poll on a particular day.  But whether or not Americans believe stricter laws would prevent such shootings has no bearing on whether laws would actually have an impact on shooting sprees.  It's just an opinion, taken from what may be a very fickle group.  Including such a factoid without an attempt at synthesis wouldn't help the article, and would constitute the inclusion of "indiscriminate information," but any attempt at synthesis, or to interpret such a poll, without a verifiable and reliable source for such synthesis, would constitute Original Research.  It's better left out entirely. zadignose 16:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd also like to mark reservations about the source - Opinion Dynamics have been known to report statistics that seem to be biased towards the right in my experience. -Halo 17:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I would say a cautious yes, but only if the group who did the poll is a respected neutral pollster. The public opinion is valid (and I am saying this as someone who disagrees with them). Sad mouse 20:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think it's worth including.  First off, I don't see this garnering significant public attention.  Second, the particular question ("Do you think tougher gun laws can help stop things like the Virginia Tech school shooting, or do you think the people who commit these kinds of acts will always find guns?") is a false dichotomy and thus a very poor question for a survey.  Finally, I don't feel this is important enough to justify lengthening the gun control section(s) in this article; they're already way too long and off-topic, IMHO.  --ElKevbo 22:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, biased question. Turn my cautious yes into a strong no. Sad mouse 02:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: summary, most (two thirds) Americans want more gun control, but only a minority (one third) want a complete ban. And roughly the split was - extra gun laws would help (about a third), concealed weapons would have helped (about a third), neither extra gun laws nor extra concealed weapons would have helped (about a third). But the poll also shows this is pretty much the same as before, so we should not go into details in this article beyond saying (at the most) "the American public's opinion on gun laws remains as divided as prior to the event" or something. Certainly the poll above should not be used, because it only asks a pro-gun question, rather than the NYT which asks both a pro-gun and anti-gun question (and finds that a strong majority of Americans come against both) Sad mouse 02:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I wouldn't include it. Let people make up their own minds about whether access to guns is good or bad. If every gun disappeared tomorrow, would there be no murder? If every person had a gun tomorrow, would there be no murder? Etc. Ikilled007 11:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The American public's stance 

message: Congratulations to those who have contributed to this article as your efforts have given significant credibility to Wikipedia:
*Wikipedia serves as Internet news source on the Virginia Tech shootings
*Link by Link The Latest on Virginia Tech, From Wikipedia
*The Latest on Virginia Tech, From Wikipedia
*Wikipedia proved reliable in tragedy
*Wikipedia makes news
-- Jreferee 15:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Multiple reprints of the same story reach different audiences and increase the fame/importance of the covered topic. The cited stories are recognition of efforts by the Wikipedia editors of this article that resulted in increasing the believability and trustworthiness of Wikipedia and that recognition has been spread to various geographic areas by multiple reprints of the same story. -- Jreferee 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just want to say... I haven't done any editing on this apart from the odd vandal revert, but I've been watching it closely.  I think people don't give Wikipedia the credence it deserves in cases like this... the article is extremely well referenced and a real credit to all those who worked on it.  I'm glad Wikipedia is finally getting some (deserved) positive attention in this case.  Wikipedia isn't all about vandals and nonsense being added to articles and this article proves it. PageantUpdater User Talk  Review me! 00:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Do you think it would be a good idea to include this information in the article? Christopher Connor 00:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if coverage of our coverage is newsworthy in itself, yet, but there is a talkpage template to acknowledge use of a Wikipedia article in the news media. I suppose this would qualify. Anchoress 01:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Why? Do we not have faith in our product? --Crunch 00:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all, but we don't ever reference ourselves in articles if at all possible. It's policy. A Traintalk 01:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean "It's guideline"? ;o But it's still bad to add any of this to the main article unless it comes under significant press coverage. Phony Saint 01:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Congratulations! Wikipedia proved reliable in tragedy 

message: An editor has repeatedly inserted text into the "Responses from other educational institutions" subsection about the reaction at Ohio State University.  Other editors have repeatedly removed that text.  The most recent version of the text in question reads:
The Ohio State University President Karen A. Holbrook released a statement that is linked from the university's homepage since the day of the shootings and that was sent out in a campuswide email to students and faculty on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 shortly before campus cable networks began practicing new emergency broadcast tests. She asserts that "Ohio State stands ready to provide any assistance to Virginia Tech that they may identify in the days to come.""Statement by Karen A. Holbrook on the Tragedy at Virginia Tech" Furthermore, OSU police released information on their preparedness for dealing with similar situations that featured local news coverage and front page newspaper coverage.Tim Hoffins, "OSU police prepared if shooting occurs," The Lantern 118 (Tuesday, April 17, 2007): 1
I am one of the editors who has removed the text (twice, I think) and I have asked the editor who has inserted the text to please discuss this here on the Talk page.  I assert that OSU's reaction is not sufficiently different from the reactions at hundreds of other institutions to warrant inclusion in this article.  It is not enough that the president of OSU has offered to provide assistance as many other institutions have done likewise.  Further, as OSU has not actually provided material support, it does not warrant inclusion along with other institutions who have.
I recognize that the inclusion of the Penn State tribute may be seen as contradictory to my position and I acknowledge the perceived disconnect.  That material has already been considerably shortened from its original form but I would not object if someone were to remove it completely.  That there is a very nice GFDL-licensed photograph of hundreds, perhaps thousands of PSU students actively participating in the described events makes it an attractive addition to this article.  --ElKevbo 21:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed this material more than once as well, although I did once attempt to paraphrase in line with the other material out in the interest of compromise. However, nothing I see in the cite seems noteworthy. I would also ask that anyone who wants to reinsert it please state your reasons for doing so here first so we can understand what it is that you think is noteworthy. Ronnotel 22:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The other universities listed are worded as if they offer support, which OSU HAS DONE!  Thus, I kept the following:
The Ohio State University has offered "to provide any assistance to Virginia Tech that they may identify in the days to come.""Statement by Karen A. Holbrook on the Tragedy at Virginia Tech"
The above is uniform with the other universities there, but as the person above me stated, OSU also appeared on the front page of USA Today and had various other events, discussions, activities, etc. that make the university's response more than minor and at least notable like those others mentioned.  --Horace Horatius 03:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: While OSU being listed on the front page of USA Today is notable, OSU is also one of the largest universities in the United States and has been in the news alot lately due to the success of their athletic programs.  Unlike the other universities listed, OSU has not offered any actual support.  Every other university has provided some sort of physical support.  OSU simply has not and should not be included.  The only thing OSU offered was a very strongly worded statement of support.  140.254.47.113 04:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see how one can compare a statement offering assistance with the actual assistance given by the institutions listed (Penn State excluded).  It seems like an inappropriate excuse to promote OSU.  --ElKevbo 12:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And on that note I removed OSU, Wake Forest, Clemson, and UVA's offers of support.  I thought there was something in there about Wake, Clemson, and UVA actually providing support (i.e. sending counselors instead of just offering them) but I was mistaken.  As we find citable evidence of institutions actually providing support, more info should be added.  It seems like there are many institutions setting up special funds and collecting money to be donated to VT (similar to the already-documented pledge at ECU) and those should be documented in some manner, even if it's just to mention a few prominent examples.  --ElKevbo 12:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reaction of one of the largest univerisities in the country is relevant and notable.  --164.107.223.217 14:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But there are 20 schools on the order of an Ohio State (Michigan, Texas, UF, etc).  The PSU tribute is something phenominal ... and the ECU donation is significant given the size and that we are traditional rivals.  If OSU's tribute is significant in and of itself ... ok ... but the size of the school doesn't alone make it significant. --BigDT 15:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but today, the local newspaper had a FRONT PAGE article about how one of the professor victims is an OSU graduate.  --164.107.223.217 23:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ohio State University reaction