Talk:Jeffrey Satinover

message: Author of 5 books is not notable enough?  Also, I agree that the page needs more work; it'll get done.  Yodaat 18:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled comments 

message: Bravejoints, while I respect the work involved in interviewing Jeffrey Satinover for this article, an unpublished interview is not an acceptable source for Wikipedia, which depends upon reliable published sources (see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources), especially for potentially controversial material about living persons. If you could persuade Mr. Satinover to host the interview on his website, that would make it an acceptable source for non-contentious material provided that "the article is not based primarily" upon it ("Using the subject as a self-published source").
However, some statements in the article cannot be based purely on Mr. Satinover's own statements, whether those are published or not; for example, that one of his books "has been applauded by psychologists, psychiatrists, scientists and Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim religious leaders". Statements like this require independent sources. EALacey 14:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "e-mail interview with subject" 

message: The article says Satinover's writings 'lack the “New Age” features characteristic of most genuine Jungians.' This looks like a biased expression of opinion, and I am going to remove it in the near future unless someone can suggest a good reason why I shouldn't. Skoojal (talk) 23:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: I've overhauled this entry to a far greater extent than I originally intended, so I though I'd post a bit of explanation. It was repetitious, and some of the repeated material was not referenced. I've tried to reorganize it with an emphasis on chronology, admittedly a bias of mine, which I hope will make it easier to improve in future. That means reworking from resume-style "He is past president of XXX" to "He was president of XXX in YEAR," which is normal bio style. I think I've only made 3 substantive contributions: (1) material from his NY Times wedding announcement, (2) his providing commentary in two documentary films, and (3) a re-write of his role in the Thomas hearings, which is well-documented. I've tried to maintain NPOV. The only bit I removed that I imagine someone might care about was an unreferenced statement that his work had been cited in many amicus curiae briefs. Since anyone can submit such briefs and cite anything they choose, it's really of no significance. The day a court decision cites his work, that will be news. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 15:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a violation of WP:NOR to conduct a personal interview with the subject of the BLP in order to give him the opportunity to refute what he wrote in his published book. Jeremy112233's edits should have been left to stand. Furthermore, the fact that Bravejoints2 is doing this sort of thing supports my assertion (below) that s/he is engaged in editing this BLP primarily for the purpose of attempting to whitewash Satinover's actual record. --Branmuffin22 (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edits

message: I plan to remove from Branmuffin22(Branmuffin22), modified?) "Some groups who oppose the expansion of LGBT rights and protections have incorporated his research into their position papers.[19]"  Is there evidence that Santinover has endorsed these groups and ALL of what they stand for? (guilt by association) He is on record for what he does stand for (I have added some of this). Anyone may cite who they want to but not every such site is important and cites may be selected in a bias way. Should Wikipedia group all cites of every living person [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|living persons] or every person? I welcome responses.
Bravejoints2 (talk) 21:18, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems like an appropriate edit. I researched it for about an hour and couldn't find a rebuttal. Sean Egan (talk) 07:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: The edits I made were an attempt to show the manner in which Jeffrey Satinover's work has been used, not just in a few isolated instances, but consistently and frequently. The fact is, Satinover's writings are used pretty much exclusively by organizations that seek to dehumanize and undermine the civil rights and fair treatment of LGBT people. Far right-wing "Christian" groups and others, including some organizations that are classified as "Hate Groups" by the Southern Poverty Law Center, frequently cite Satinover's writings as evidence that LGBT people are "less-than" and should therefore be denied equal rights under the law. For fans of Satinover, this might be an inconvenient truth, but it is, nevertheless, the truth. I have never seen Satinover's writings used by any organization that stands for equality and fairness for LGBT people. Satinover's book, "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" problematizes the very existence of LGBT people. It is deeply, fundamentally, dehumanizing. It adopts a tone of "concern" for gay people, yet it cites outdated research--research discredited by the mainstream scientific community (e.g., the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association)-- to makes a case against LGBT people. It draws on the worst of anti-gay stereotypes: that gay people are diseased, promiscuous, predisposed to pedophilia, and incapable of love. It does all this in an attempt to portray the lives and loves of LGBT people (primarily gay men) as inferior. Satinover argues that LGBT people's very existence is wrong, and that they need to be changed. His service on the Scientific Advisory Committee of the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality ("NARTH") is further evidence of his point of view.
I can understand that people who have a personal fondness for Satinover may wish to whitewash these facts. Frankly, I'm tired of the back-and-forth editing on this. So, Satinover fans: You win. But I do hope that someone else who has the time and energy will step in and continue to try to show the full truth about what Satinover has said and written about LGBT people. And if Satinover, himself, has changed his views since the time "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" was published, then it is incumbent upon him to correct the record in an equally public and academic fashion. But currently, based on the vast body of evidence publicly available, there can be no question that Satinover sees LGBT people as intrinsically and definitionally inferior to heterosexuals.
And speaking of bias, it's interesting that in Bravejoints2's most recent edits, describing Satinover's expert testimony in the Florida adoption case, s/he managed to cherry-pick a handful of quotes that make Satinover appear to be a little less anti-gay. Given the preponderance of anti-LGBT writing and speaking in which Satinover has engaged, the selection of these quotes appears, to me, to be exactly the type of bias of which you have accused me.
--Branmuffin22 (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I would recommend not trying to alter the text of others, and instead to add constructively to the article. If you feel the quotes were cherry-picked, add some additional ones from the case that could balance out the coverage in the article instead of just trying to alter or erase what someone else has written. It sounds like your complaint is that there is not enough material from each side to balance each other out, so if you concentrate on adding constructively to this article on top of what is already here rather than trying to overhaul the entire thing you may end up with a more positive result. Just a thought. Jeremy112233 (talk) 12:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I'm going to stay neutral on this one, but to say that the other editor [Bravejoints2] does have a single purpose user account and seems to know a lot about Wikipedia--which says to me that either he has only ever edited from an IP address in the past, and just now got an account, or the user may be using multiple accounts. It is best to assume good faith, but I do find it suspicious. I have no problem at all with paid editing if that's what it is, however I am against any paid advocacy or the use of multiple accounts as it is breaks Wikipedia policy.Jeremy112233 (talk) 17:16, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "It's entirely possible that Satinover himself, or someone acting on his behalf" Please don't accuse editors of sockpuppetry: it is WP:UNCIVIL.– Lionel (talk) 09:10, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Bravejoints2, the editor who has been primarily responsible for revising this article to whitewash the things Satinover has actually written and said about LGBT people, admits himself that s/he has some tie to Satinover. Bravejoints2 said he has interviewed Satinover for this article (which strikes me as a violation of WP:NOR). Bravejoints2 stated, below, that "In an email I alerted Satinover to what was happening on Wikipedia." --Branmuffin22 (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: RESPONSE to question about bias

message: Why is a marriage notice from the 1980's important? Responses welcome. Bravejoints2 (talk) 21:36, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Satinover has testified against same-sex marriage, and in his book, "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth," Satinover argues that gay people are universally promiscuous and incapable of forming lasting, loving relationships. Some have used Satinover's work to argue that the growing acceptance of same-sex marriage points to the end of the world. The section you recently added describing Satinover's views on gay adoption quotes him as saying that divorce is a "form[] of heterosexual misbehavior." So yes, the fact that Satinover himself is divorced and remarried is very relevant.
--Branmuffin22 (talk) 15:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Branmuffin, your argument is completely against policy. We do not write articles to demonstrate that a subject is a hypocrite. That is original research and violates WP:OR. In the particular case, inclusion or exclusion of his divorce is governed by WP:DUE. The bit about his divorce seems to be a minor fact. Had his ex-wife been notable, or even named, then the item would be a good candidate for inclusion. If you have an argument based on policy, i.e. WP:DUE, then let's hear it.– Lionel (talk) 09:05, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: Sorry for the drive-by tag. This article has POV issues. The most obvious upon intial examination were the frequent use of WP:WEASEL & WP:PEACOCK words, as well as a bit of editorializing WP:EDITORIAL.  Examples:
*" It is written for a well-educated, general readership, but it has been cited in a number of scientific publications"
* "He is known for books on a number of controversial topics in physics and neuroscience, and on religion, but especially for his writing"
* "Most of the book discusses whether homosexuality is biological"
Another issue is the "biography" section, which currently reads like a CV or academic resume, not a prose biography of notable life events.  Bryan Hopping T  04:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Footnote 1 does indeed say Satinover is Jewish Orthodox. The source arguably meets Wiki RS, but has an obvious bias. 
In context that Satinover also teaches at an affiliate of Campus Crusade for Christ, and in view of his many other research interests, how orthodox could he be, really? Does anybody else agree this should be deleted?JerryRussell (talk) 22:56, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthodox Jew? 

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thread_title:  External links modified