Talk:Lance corporal

message: Ive restored the reference to the Middle Ages rank origin.  I have read this in numerous military history textbooks.  Note, the article does not say this is 100 percent confirmed, but rather it is a possible origin of the rank.  The other origin with the Italian rank could be just as correct. -Husnock 21:49, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle Ages reference 

message: :From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:
::lance corporal 
  
::NOUN: 1. abbr. LCpl A noncommissioned rank in the U.S. Marine Corps that is above private first class and below corporal. 2. One who holds this rank.  
::ETYMOLOGY: From lancepesade, from obsolete French lancepessade, from Italian lancia spezzata, superior soldier : lancia, lance (from Latin lancea; see lance) + spezzata, feminine past participle of spezzare, to break to pieces ( Latin dis-, apart; see dis– + pezza, piece, from Medieval Latin pecia, piece, from Vulgar Latin *pettia).  
:From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
::Main Entry: lance corporal
::Function: noun
::Etymology: lance (as in obsolete lancepesade lance corporal, from Middle French lancepessade): an enlisted man in the marine corps ranking above a private first class and below a corporal 
:From the Online Etymology Dictionary:
::lance  
::c.1290, from O.Fr. lance, from L. lancea "light spear" (It. lancia, Sp. lanza, Ger. Lanze), possibly of Celt-Iberian origin. The verb meaning "to pierce with a lance" is from c.1300; the surgical sense (properly with ref. to a 'lancet') is from 1474. Lance corporal (1786) is from obsolete lancepesade "officer of lowest rank" (1578), from O.It. lancia spezzata "old soldier," lit. "broken lance."
:From Dictionary.com:
::lancepesade
::\Lance`pe*sade"\, n. [F. lancepessade, lanspessade, anspessade, It. lancia spezzata a broken lance or demilance, a demilance roan, a light horseman, bodyguard.] An assistant to a corporal; a private performing the duties of a corporal; -- called also lance corporal.
::Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. 
:From the MSN Encarta dictionary:
::lance corporal 
  
::lance cor·po·ral (plural lance cor·po·rals) 
::noun  
 
::1. Marine rank: a noncommissioned officer in the U.S. Marine Corps of a rank above private first class
 
::2. rank of noncommissioned officer: a British Army or British Royal Marines noncommissioned officer of a rank above private
::[< obsolete lancepesade "officer of the lowest rank," via French < Old Italian lancia spezzata "broken lance"] 
:From the FAQ of Leatherneck (Magazine of the Marines) :
::I enlisted in 1940. What is a lance corporal? 
::There were no lance corporals in the Marine Corps when you served. The rank, which falls between private first class and corporal, has been around since the 1830s when the Corps also had lance-sergeants. It went out of use sometime after 1930 and was reinstituted in 1958. Reference: "Handbook for Marine NCOs" by Col Robert D. Heinl, USMC (Ret)
::According to the 1979 edition of the handbook, the term "lance corporal" results from a marriage of the French word lancepesade and corporal. Lancepesade means "broken lance." Therefore, the term lance corporal can be translated as "an old soldier who has broken many a lance in combat."
:From the USMC Customs and Traditions page of the Marine Corps Brotherhood's site:
::Lance Corporal results from a marriage of the French word Lancepesade (literally meaning "broken Lance" and hence an old soldier who has broken many a lance in combat) to "Corporal." At first, the rank was simply lancepesade, but soon became Lancepesade-Corporal, from which the present title comes, being first recorded in 1611. The Marine Corps has had Lance Corporals (and, for a time, Lance-Sergeants, too) since the 1830s, although the rank went out of use between 1930 and 1958, when it was re-established.
:The OED gives a similar etymology, but I don't have a copy to hand.
:Searching on Google for "corporal of lance" or "corporals of lance" turns up only mirrors of this article, plus one page in Croatian that I can't translate.
:What's your source for this derivation? — Franey 10:48, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My primary source is a textbook called "Introduction to Naval Science" which is used in US Naval ROTC.  In the "origins of rank" section, it talks about the Middle Ages reference.  There was also a rather large segment about this rank on the show Mail Call, where the MA origins was talked about and the Armed Forces Network did a history show in 1999 where they spoke of it as well.  There were also at least two other U.S. Army Institute of History Books that talked about this.  I think we're getting confused on the issue, in that noone is saying that the above info, posted by Franey is untrue.  It is simply possible that both origins have some merit.  I see nothing wrong with rewriting the intro to leave the Middle Ages reference in but state clearly it is the more ambigious of the two origins, if that has not been done already. -Husnock 12:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you quote the relevant part from Introduction to Naval Science? I'm not being awkward, I'm genuinely curious, as I can't find another reference to corporals of lance anywhere (apart from that Croatian page). I also wonder why corporal of lance would become lance corporal when corporal of horse didn't become horse corporal (Corporal of Horse, as I'm sure you're aware, is still a rank in the Household Cavalry regiments of the British Army.) — Franey 12:00, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Sweden: according to the Swedish Wikipedia the rank was reinstated in 2008 but there is a note for missing reference. According to other sources the new rank system started 2009-01-01.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.227.15.253 (talk) 13:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Most of the opening paragraph refers specifically to UK usage.  Most of that info appears under the UK heading also.  Remove it from the first paragraph? –Maxrandom777 17:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundancy 

message: The entries for Australia and the United Kingdom both state that a common nickname is "Lance Jack". That's not in dispute, e.g. this page on the British MOD's website has it right at the top. But it would probably be best to delete the duplicates, and move the information into the introduction, and say something along the lines of "in Commonwealth nations, and others which have had links with British military tradition, a common nickname for Lance Corporal is "Lance Jack"". The problem is that (a) which nations use Lance Jack? and (b) where does it come from? I assume Jack is generic, as in Jack Tar. It seems to also be used in Canada, as per this website, albeit that it is also a Wiki. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 01:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lance Jack 

message: Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 18:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 

message: ...the Lance was the smallest fighting unit, for instance a knight, a sergeant (man-at-arms) and a page, and perhaps with some mounted archers, crossbowmen and harquebushiers. It was a tiny group of men under a knight. In Italy the leader of a 'lancia' was called 'capo lancia' o 'caporale', that is to say, corporal. See Condottieri.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:14, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The article Lances fournies discusses this usage of "lance" for what today is commonly called a "squad." Given the earlier hoopla some years back about citing this as a possible alternate origin for "lance corporal," I'm just going to add a See Also section with that reference. --Eliyahu S Talk 16:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the late Middle Ages... 

message: In France, the equivalent of a Lance Corporal is a Caporal not 1st class private, which is given to a private as distinction and not a rank and doesn't give any particular authority over another private, whereas a Caporal is team leader in a fireteam. Blastwizard (talk) 13:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  France 

message: The rank of lance corporal has existed in the US Army since at least 1802, as the US Army Institute of Heraldry documents its first occurrence in an “unofficial journal” dated in that year. The first official use of the rank of lance corporal is documented in the General Regulations for the Army, or, Military Institutes, (Articles 18 and 20), authorized by an Act of Congress on March 2, 1821 and published by the War Department in July 1821 and again on March 1, 1825.
In the General Regulations for the Army of the United States (Article XVI, Paragraph 64), published on January 25, 1841, and again in the 1847 edition (Article XIII, Paragraph 121; Article XIV, Paragraph 134; and Article XLIX, Paragraph 818) the rank of lance corporal and lance sergeant are authorized. (Lance corporals were to serve as assistant squad leaders.) Again, in the Revised Army Regulations of 1861 published on August 10, 1861 and in the 1863 edition “With An Appendix Containing the Changes and Laws Affecting Army Regulations And Articles Of War To June 25, 1863” in Article 40, Paragraph 971, lance corporal and lance sergeant are authorized. Lance corporal and lance sergeant ranks are authorized in Regulations of the Army of the United States and General Orders In Force on the 17th of February 1881 in Article LV, Paragraph 812 and in Regulations of the Army of the United States 1895 Article XXXII, Paragraph 257.
In the edition of 1901 “With Appendix Separately Indexed And Showing Changes to January 1, 1901”, in the Appendix, page 331, in Headquarters of the Army, General Orders, No. 42, June 30, 1897, Part II, the lance corporal is authorized to wear “…a chevron having one bar…”. In Regulations for the Army of the United States 1904, Article XXX, Paragraph 263, “…no company shall have more than one lance corporal at a time, unless there are noncommissioned officers absent by authority, during which absences there may be one for each absentee.” This proscription appears again in Article XXX, Paragraph 272 of Regulations for the Army of the United States 1910, and the editions of 1913, and 1917 “Corrected to April 15, 1917 (Changes, Nos. 1 to 55)”.
In 1920 the former lance corporal insignia of rank was assigned to private first class in War Department Circular No. 303, dated 3 August 1920. However, the Institute of Heraldry states that some US Army Tables of Organization and Equipment (TOEs) still authorized lance corporals until circa 1940. In February 1965 the US Army announced that effective September 1, 1965 that pay grade E-3 would be re-designated as lance corporal. The rank insignia was the pre-World War II specialist grade 6 insignia of one chevron above one arc or “rocker.”
Apparently, (admittedly based on conjecture and anecdotal evidence) due to a presumed shortage of general availability of the “new” rank insignia as well as a general dislike in the Army of the “new” rank title, partially because it may have been viewed as a “Marine Corps” rank, most commands and installations did not use the title. It appears that in practice, the Army (in some units and locales) had both E-3s and E-2s wearing a single chevron with both being called private first class (PFC) until 1968 when the “old” PFC insignia of one chevron became private E-2 (PV2) and E-3 became PFC using the “old/new” specialist grade 6/lance corporal insignia.
As the US Army was heavily involved in combat operations in Southeast Asia during the 1965-1968 time period, it is very odd that there appears to be no award citation or casualty listings (i.e., KIA or MIA) for Army lance corporals. Also, I have researched the list of Medal of Honor (MOH) recipients from 1866 through 1920 (there are so many for the Civil War that I have not completed it) and I cannot find a single Army lance corporal mentioned. (Perhaps any lance corporals, or lance sergeants, for that matter, so recognized were automatically meritoriously/ posthumously promoted to full corporal or sergeant, respectively, concurrent with the award of the MOH.
 
According to an email I received from the Institute of Heraldry re an inquiry on the history of the US Army lance corporal rank, I was told that the Institutes History of U.S. Army Enlisted Ranks page is “not all inclusive” and that “we do not have a lot” in regards to historical files on the rank. The Institute provided me with a copy of illustrations of US Army Enlisted Rank insignia from THE PENTAGRAM (sic) NEWS, Washington, D.C., Page 13, entitled “Army Changes Enlisted Insignia” dated February 25, 1965 that shows PFC (E-2) with one chevron, Lance Corporal (E-3) with one chevron over one arc, and two Army E-9 ranks that are different than the current ones. The current Sergeant Major insignia (for a short while known as Staff Sergeant Major) is listed as Chief Master Sergeant (same as the current USAF E-9 rank) and the current Command Sergeant Major (with a slightly different star and wreath pattern) is simply Sergeant Major. Additionally, the Institute provided a copy of an article from the ARMY TIMES, Page 22, entitled “All About That ‘New’ Lance Corporal Rank” dated March 3, 1965, which corroborates the existence of the US Army lance corporal rank. This article includes citations in Farrow’s Military Encyclopedia of 1885 (page 174) and The Encyclopedia Americana (Volume 8, Page 1, 1829-1953 and 1963).
If anyone has any definitive information to add to the above, please share it. The history of US Army enlisted rank insignia is extremely complex and rather confusing, and even the Army’s Institute of Heraldry admits that its information is somewhat sparse and not “all inclusive.”CobraDragoon (talk) 05:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Army Lance Corporal Rank 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: the article has forgotten that the word Marine(s) is to be capitalized 192.55.60.34 (talk) 00:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. This has been discussed ad infinitem and it has been decided that "marine" should not be capitalised on Wikipedia, any more than soldier, sailor or airman should be capitalised. It's merely an affectation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marine