Talk:Jean Ziegler

message: The Wikimedia Foundation has had a letter of complaint about this article. Having reviewed it, and the article and talk pages, the article has been stubbed.  The removed text should not be replaced.   The article can be worked on carefully and any verified information put back. But this should be done with maximum care and very, very careful wording.  In particular, any sources should be carefully chosen and mainstream.  I'm sorry to be heavy handed here, but this is not a minor issue. Please be quick to remove anything from this article that you think problematic, and slow to add anything new. Thanks all -- sannse (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed text

message: Cb93, thanks for your edits to this article. Some of the stuff you added is very helpful. However, some of your language wasn't exactly what we use here. It would be appropriate for a magazine article, for example, but not an encyclopedia.
As for the Gaddafi thing: can you provide a source that says he wasn't involved in it in any way? Any good source on the subject would be appreciated. It needs to be confirmed or dismissed, or the article must discuss the controversy surrounding claims and counterclaims. IronDuke 03:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edits 

message: Speaking of reliable sources, half of this section is occupied by a citation of a critical comment about the book, coming from the site  http://switzerland.isyours.com, a commercial site run by Micheloud & Co.,
whose activity is well described here:
http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/banking/index.html
As required by sannse, I'll quickly remove this part.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Satanetto (talk • contribs) 20:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Swiss banks and the Holocaust

message: Hi all, UN Watch is not an independent source for allegations. Referring to sannse above, care should be taken to supply this article with *independent* sources (be it CNN, NYTimes, NZZ or whatever). --Mbimmler (talk) 19:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:BLP and UN Watch 

message: Your right. I'll leave that out. However, the revision that was undone was sourced from ABC News. This is an "independent" source. I am reinstating it. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: My last addition was appropriate

message: Ileana Ros-Lehtinen is a notable person - she is a prominent Cuban-American and serves as the ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. In addition the source is legitimate (The Associated Press). I've also placed her comments in quotes and/or made clear that these are her own statements and are not facts. Also, I've added the support Ziegler received from the Swiss Government.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ileana Ros-Lehtinen's comments

message: I cleaned up and formated the refs. These were the substantive changes:
* Many paragraphs were direct quotes from cited news articles, but not indicated as quotes.  Others were nearly direct.  So I converted all those to direct quotes.
* Some quotes were not balanced to reflect what was in the article, so I expanded those.
* The Time quote in the "Khaddafi Prize" section was misplaced.  It did not support the text before it at all.  So I added a quote from the Time article.
* I expanded the "Khaddafi Prize" description, maybe to much.  The list of winners was unbalanced, notably skipping the first recipient, Nelson Mandela.  Ziegler was directly involved with that choice it seems, maybe that should be in the article.
* I removed that assertion that Ziegler's name is still on the Libyan website for winning in 2002, as I looked at it and did not see his name, just "13 writers". In any case, it's not clear he could be held responsible for that.
* On Cuba, among Zielger's praise, he did say one mildly negative thing, so I threw that in (and it's reflected in the title of the cited article, which like most other titles, was missing).
* On the Cuban agents at the press conference in Geneva, I added the AP's account of the UN's spokeswoman's apology.  The other source is an opinion piece in the National Post, "The farce at the UNHRC".
- Colfer2 (talk) 04:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Direct quotes and Cuba 

message: I see that there is a strong urge to highlight ostensible defects in Jean Ziegler's character (I wanted to write "slander" but decided choose a neutral formulation). I don't know whose weak character and flimsy skin cannot suffer any criticism by Ziegler, nor do I really want to.
Anyway, I noticed that all sources supplied to prove the Ziegler-Gaddafi-relationship say Neue Zürcher Zeitung (NZZ) on the surface but actually link to UN Watch, incidentally the very institute that makes the accusations in the first place. I don't think accusations prove accusations. Could anyone please supply independent sources, for example by pointing to the actual "real" NZZ pages? SomPost 18:14, 01 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem here and some other sources is, that it only relys on unwatch (meaning, they say "unwatch reported that: "..."") and then this quotes are cited as if it would be there own information and not just reporting the reader what unwatch is arguing. That's manipulation then to quote that as different sources. --85.176.168.98 (talk) 01:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

text: The source, Weekly Standard, says he won the prize in 2002 but disowned it.  How is it significant that his name is or was "still" on the official web page?  It is not his web page, or is he still on the board or something?  I don't think Wikipedia has to copy every rhetorical flourish of the original article. Another source would be handy here. The Time short article is from 1989. -Colfer2 (talk) 23:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaddafi Price 

message: Look closer at the website - Zielger is on the list as a winner in 2002 - although his name is spelt differently (as "Mr. John Ziter") - I find this to be too much of a coincidence. French Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy is listed as "Mr. Rogeh Jarrodi" which suggests that the spelling is different (or the names were mispelled.)
Look at the following webpage under the 2002 winners (I find it hard to believe that Mr. John Ziter is anyone else) http://www.gaddafiprize.org/WhoEn.htm
(Hyperionsteel (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The source, Weekly Standard, says he won the prize in 2002 but disowned it.  How is it significant that his name is or was "still" on the official web page?  It is not his web page, or is he still on the board or something?  I don't think Wikipedia has to copy every rhetorical flourish of the original article. Another source would be handy here. The Time short article is from 1989. -Colfer2 (talk) 23:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ziegler is on the list - look closer at the website

message: This should be of interest:
:from Le Monde, 23 April 1996, p.12
:Title: ABBOT PIERRE QUALIFIES DENIAL AS DECEITFUL. AFTER declaring his support for Roger Garaudy, now facing civil charges for denial of crimes against humanity, Abbot Pieree attempted, on Sunday 21 April, to calm the passions aroused by his statements (in Le Monde, 21-22 April). In a comunique, the founder of the Emmaus Companions asserts that he views "denial and revisionism as intellectual and moral deception, to be fought at all costs". Abbot Pierre specifies, however, that "to assimilate Garaudy's works, as a researcher and historian, to denial and revisionism would be false".
:For his part, Jean Ziegler, the Swiss writer who signed a letter of support for Roger Garaudy, told us, on Monday 22 April, that he "most firmly condemned all revisionist activity or ideas whose purpose is to deny or to minimize the genocide of the Jewish people by the Nazis". He assures us that his letter of support to Mr. Garaudy, "expressed his respect for the latter's battle against all fundamentalisms -- and Muslim fundamentalism, in particular".
I'm not certain if this is the last word on the subject, but it's enough to cast some doubt on the authors who have presumed a close bond between Ziegler and Garaudy.  And please bear in mind that we're not obligated to chronicle every drive-by smear against controversial public figures.  CJCurrie (talk) 04:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if accurate, the first part of this is a violation of WP:SYNTH and the other sources you're provided are either partisan or unencyclopedic.  There's certainly room for criticism of Ziegler in this article, but we shouldn't turn it into an attack piece.  CJCurrie (talk) 05:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you need to be more specific than that. So far, unpersuasive. IronDuke 03:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Ziegler and Garaudy

message: For some reason, this article is on my watchlist - I may have edited it at some point in the past, though I don't remember when or why, or perhaps I just decided to watch it.  In any event, I know very little about the subject.
My comment is therefore general in nature.  I think that as a stylistic matter (as a minimum!) having a very short biography and then pages and pages of controversy is not a proper way to write an encyclopedia article.  Having no expertise on this particular subject, and no interest in working to acquire it, I won't try to fix it myself.  But I would appreciate - for my broader understanding of the kinds of issues in play in a biography like this, as well as to try to help facilitate you all in finding a better way - a discussion of how we might improve the entry.
I suppose the problem here, at core, is that Mr. Ziegler is mostly famous for having made a lot of fairly dramatic and controversial pronouncements.  Therefore, most of the coverage of him is likely to be about controversies.
But without taking sides at all, I would note that - as an example - his interactions with North Korea, which we include as one of the "Controversies" doesn't sound particularly controversial at all.  He had a UN position relating to the "Right to Food" and he asked to visit North Korea in relation to accusations that the army took food aid.  Sounds like a normal part of his job.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was controversial with the NKorean government, rather than the usual critics in western countries. I would assume... AnonMoos (talk) 01:15, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, but that's not normally a reason to call something a "controversy".  He's a guy involved in human rights work and politics in general - there's almost always something that someone will call controversial, but that doesn't mean it belongs in a "controversies" section.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Jimbo, I would agree that having almost the entire article under the heading of "controversies" is a bad idea. I'm still mulling how to change it, but what are your thoughts about using the word "controversial" to describe JZ in the lead? Certainly, the article as written supports that view. IronDuke 16:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  A general comment 

message: There's a discussion about this article at the Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reorganized the article a bit, but have not removed the POV tag that's been at the top of the article for more than two years.  Since it's been there so long, perhaps it would be helpful if editors who know more than I do about the subject would briefly summarize their views about why this article does or doesn't have a POV problem.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm through for now revising the article.  Most of what I've done is rephrasing, reorganizing, fixing dead links, and the like.  I have not attempted any major substantive changes, and have not used any search engines to see what info generally exists about this subject.  The POV tag was inserted years ago by an editor who has not edited Wikipedia in more than two years. That editor objected to exclusive use of "conservative press" as sources.  Whatever the situation was in 2008, looking over the footnotes now shows a wide range of mainstream news sources.  So, I'll tentatively remove the POV tag.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: BLPN

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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