Talk:Back to the Future timeline/Archive 1

message: Near the end of BTTF I, when Marty runs over to the mall, sees the Libyans shoot Doc, and hears the other Marty hollering at the Libyans, should it yet read "Lone Pine Mall"?  Marty hasn't gone back into the past yet, so he hasn't gone back to cause the changes. One might think that the change in the sign wouldn't happen until after the De Lorean disappears and the Libyan van hits the photo stand.  The director could then have taken a long shot, showing Marty looking at Doc then running over to him, with the mall sign in the foreground then changing before our very eyes.
On the other hand, the fact that Marty arrives in 1985 11 minutes earlier, then comes running over to the mall about a minute or two before his departure, gives "assurance to time and space" that he will, in fact, undertake the time trip exactly as the week-older Marty now can remember.
Does anyone else have opinions to share about this?
It is a good thing that Marty didn't run down and show himself to the younger Marty, thus affecting younger Marty's actions and thoughts while he was in 1955, or even before he drives fast enough to hit 88.
GBC 03:55, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point considering they showed the newspapers and stuff changing in BTTF II & III,  maybe they realized their mistake...Dannybu2001 22:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a mistake. It's consistent with the way they set up the rules of time travel for the movie. Basically, they didn't show the sign changing at the beginning of the movie because they wanted to leave it as a surprise joke for the audience at the end of the movie. Exactly when it becomes likely enough that Marty will travel back in time and create an alternate timeline with a "Lone Pine Mall" is deliberately left ambiguous for moviegoers to discuss after the movie.  The discussion board at www.bttf.com is a more appropriate place to discuss this at length. GUllman 20:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The change causing the sign already occurred at an earlier point in the movie, it is not contingent on Mary McFly Version 2 going back, Version 1 already caused the change. Doc's theories on the result of paradox is wrong, because if he was right the photograph from part III would have caused a destruction resolution. Because Marty in 1955 wouldn't have taken the photo and gone back to save Doc from being shot. I frown on causality errors in BTTF because they assume allot about the nature of time travel. --68.109.92.47 09:17, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Twin Pines Mall / Lone Pine Mall - time ripples

message: When referencing Marty Jr. being tried, convicted and sentenced in a short period of time, Doc says, "The justice system works swiftly now that they've abolished all lawyers." He doesn't say when, but perhaps this fact could be listed as an unknown date?Dannybu2001 22:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lawyers 

message: According to the Bob Gale, Biff didn't return to 2015, he would have returned to 2015A. The area just hasn't changed at all. --68.109.92.47 09:17, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: More specifically, Biff did return to 2015 (not 2015A) so the DeLorean could be returned to Marty and Doc. Then, (from Marty's point of view, as it is throughout the movies) 2015 fades into 2015A as Biff erases from existence. GUllman 03:06, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 2015A

message: I noticed my blurb about the unlikelihood of Diana becming Queen, even if she had lived, has been removed.  Does it work differently if a male has the throne?  I mean Philip is currenlty the Queen's Consort, not a King.  (EmiOfBrie 23:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Prince Charles will still the Queen's son, isn't he?  His official website states that he holds the position of "Heir to The Throne". GUllman 20:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Prince Charles were to become King, then his wife would become Queen, as is the way it goes. If a Queen becomes ruler (like Queen Elizabeth II), her husband would not become King, as King out ranks Queen. That's just the way they do it. JQF 21:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Prince Charles would become King (whatever name he chooses, that's the right of the monarch - George VI was called Bertie by his family before he became King in 1936). In the alternate time line of BTTF, Diana was still alive and still his wife, so she became "queen consort". Charles succeeded his mother Elizabeth II, who was "queen regnant". There evidently is no such title as "king consort", but who knows how things could change in the future. Elizabeth II's mother, who was Queen Elizabeth when George VI was King, would have obtained the title "queen dowager" when George VI died, but she rejected that title and became the "queen mother". So, possibly in future, if a daughter inherits the throne, she might decide to let her husband become "king consort". Just not expected to happen at this time. But in BTTF2, the Queen Diana is merely the consort of the reigning king Charles. GBC 01:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Queen Diana?

message: Since this page is being vandalized with alarming frequency, it needs to be protected from editing for a little while. --Dynamite Eleven 01:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: ===UPDATE: Comment on the timeline “at this site”. ===
This presumably fan-developed BTTF chronology is demonstrably incomplete, and also bears copyright dates of 2002 prominently (abandoned, or buried waiting to be picked up in the future?). A flaw I spotted very quickly in its 1885 section regards the arrival of Clara. The excerpts below are as they appear, with ellipses (plural?) to show material omitted(don’t involve Clara):
SEPT 3 THU
...
The Mayor reminds Doc that he needs to pick the new school teacher up from the train station tomorrow----PART 3	
  	
Doc and Marty try to get horses to pull the De Lorean up to 88 miles per hour----PART 3
SEPT 4 FRI
QUOTE  	Doc Brown: "Damn. We blew the fuel-injection manifold."----PART 3
10:04 AM 	
As Marty and Doc look at the railway map at the station, Clara can clearly be seen standing in the background waiting to be picked up. The clock for the clocktower is also waiting there.----PART 3
...
 
SEPT 5 SAT
...
QUOTE  	
Doc Brown: "Alright, Marty. Once more, let's go over the entire plan and layout. I apologise for the crudity of this model -"
Marty: "Yeah, I know, Doc. It's not to scale."----PART 3
This recalls a similar scene in 1955 with another model - how to get Marty back to 1985.----PART 1
...
QUOTE 	
Clara: "Hello? ... Emmett?"
Doc Brown: "It's Clara. Quick, cover the Delorean." 	----PART 3
It strikes this writer as very odd that Doc and Clara’s accidental but providential meeting is omitted from the timeline at this old website, and the backstory that Marty carries around about Clara Clayton and the ravine for whom she is named is also omitted. Otherwise how does Clara know who and where “Emmett” is in the above entry? It is illuminating that Doc ought to have met Clara along with the clock’s arrival at 10:04 (is it already running?), and doesn’t because he changed his mind, only for providence to bring them together anyway.
I think it’s valuable to realize that at the end of Marty’s incredible experiences in BTTF, he has three sets of memories about “Clayton Ravine” (the name he has known until the autumn of 1985):
# It’s called Clayton Ravine, named for a schoolteacher who never got to teach because she was killed the day she arrived in Hill Valley;
# It’s called Shonash Ravine, because Clara wasn’t killed (or so he thinks the case will be before he returns to 1985);
# It’s called Eastwood Ravine because he pseudonymously (soo-DON-uh-muss-ly) ran a loco into it and vanished without a trace.
Doc also is aware of the alternate histories he must have lived through, living or dying, finding love or remaining alone, because he has glimpsed fleeting evidence of it with his own eyes. How else to document it but with a sequential list of alternate histories?
(end of update)
----
Just a brief comment while I take a break from my real job (I’ll amplify later on by editing this comment):
I don’t have the trilogy (on DVD or otherwise) at hand, as I write I’m relying on my recollection of the rich BTTF saga.
===About Ritchy’s TL===
I enjoy it more, of course, but it’s not for the faint-of-heart. Ritchy’s POV is that of the privileged observer. I would entitle his chart (or list if you will) “BTTF Implied Alternate Timelines” because while some alternate outcomes are not directly depicted in BTTF, they’re implied by remnant or anecdotal evidence. It seems to me that Ritchy’s Timeline 1 continues to the right with a dead Doc Brown and a missing Marty, because Marty departs TPM (sic) parking lot at 88+ mph and never returns, and the dead Doc has no foreknowledge via a note from the past, and no vest (as I seem to recall). It nevertheless fades away because it’s overwritten by a “later” timeline. It’s a valid timeline in the storytelling at that point in the narrative because from Marty’s POV, that’s the situation as he believes it to be as he’s suddenly departing 1985 (the very first time). He hasn’t yet taken actions to change the future he just left.
===About D. XI’s TL===
This timeline is better ‘glued’ to the film as it is, and moves forward in time just once, and more slowly, accommodating the alternate outcomes in italics instead. All well and good, but I would entitle this chart or list “BTTF Depicted Timeline (and Alternates)” because it seems to minimize alternates that are only implied by remnant evidence. It seems to be incomplete, however, regarding the alternate (i.e. “patched-over”) 1955 that results (and is depicted) at the conclusion of BTTF Part II. By this I mean the “1955A” (if I may) with Part II Marty nearly undoing Part I Marty’s efforts as he strives to remain hidden from his slightly younger self.
:I don't see why Einstein's trip one minute into the future in timeline 1 creates a separate timeline, while Marty's trips to the future in timeline 2 and timeline 8 are not. In these movies, the act of travelling to the future shouldn't change the timeline at all (since Marty and Jennifer can still see themselves in the future as if they never left), but it inevitably does. If 1985 Biff's knowledge of a flying DeLorean disappearing in timeline 2, and the townspeople losing their hero Clint Eastwood in timeline 8 are not enough to create a new timeline, surely Einstein's trip which was conducted in secret would not affect history. GUllman 00:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you could say they create new timeline every time they do anything (step on a bug and create a new timeline!); they just check the current status of their actions whenever they visit a new time period and look around, or watch a newspaper or photo changing. GUllman 00:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, there are many more than eight alternate timelines depicted in the movies. (For example, the timeline after Dave fades from the photo when Linda is the oldest in the family; the timeline after Linda fades and Marty is an only child; the timeline in part 3 in which Clint Eastwood's tombstone replaces Doc's in the cemetery; ...)  GUllman 20:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: After much thought, I've realized that the premise for the timelines system does make sense, even the reason why Einstein's trip to the future is a separate timeline but not Marty's trips. It would take too long for me to explain the reason in this space. I did, however, add a mention of the two additional timelines that were created and reverted. GUllman 22:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ritchy vs. D XI: comment 

message: This timeline is better ‘glued’ to the film as it is, and moves forward in time just once, and more slowly, accommodating the alternate outcomes in italics instead. All well and good, but I would entitle this chart or list “BTTF Depicted Timeline (and Alternates)” because it seems to minimize alternates that are only implied by remnant evidence. It seems to be incomplete, however, regarding the alternate (i.e. “patched-over”) 1955 that results (and is depicted) at the conclusion of BTTF Part II. By this I mean the “1955A” (if I may) with Part II Marty nearly undoing Part I Marty’s efforts as he strives to remain hidden from his slightly younger self.
:I don't see why Einstein's trip one minute into the future in timeline 1 creates a separate timeline, while Marty's trips to the future in timeline 2 and timeline 8 are not. In these movies, the act of travelling to the future shouldn't change the timeline at all (since Marty and Jennifer can still see themselves in the future as if they never left), but it inevitably does. If 1985 Biff's knowledge of a flying DeLorean disappearing in timeline 2, and the townspeople losing their hero Clint Eastwood in timeline 8 are not enough to create a new timeline, surely Einstein's trip which was conducted in secret would not affect history. GUllman 00:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you could say they create new timeline every time they do anything (step on a bug and create a new timeline!); they just check the current status of their actions whenever they visit a new time period and look around, or watch a newspaper or photo changing. GUllman 00:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, there are many more than eight alternate timelines depicted in the movies. (For example, the timeline after Dave fades from the photo when Linda is the oldest in the family; the timeline after Linda fades and Marty is an only child; the timeline in part 3 in which Clint Eastwood's tombstone replaces Doc's in the cemetery; ...)  GUllman 20:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: After much thought, I've realized that the premise for the timelines system does make sense, even the reason why Einstein's trip to the future is a separate timeline but not Marty's trips. It would take too long for me to explain the reason in this space. I did, however, add a mention of the two additional timelines that were created and reverted. GUllman 22:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: About D. XI’s TL

message: D. Eleven’s list is easier but less fun, for me at least. The difference in POV here I think highlights the basic problem in time travel storytelling where the flow of the narrative is so disconnected from the flow of chronological events. It’s hard to have it both ways.
Or can you? This is Wikipedia, after all. What does Doc tell Marty & Jen at the very end of the story?
Like I said, more later...in the Future.   ;)
Schweiwikist 16:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: General Observation

message: Doc wasn't supposed to have been shot at the festival and killed.  He was shot in the back by Buford on Monday September 7, which killed him instantly.
RobertCMWV1974 20:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he was shot by Buford at the festival. If Marty wasn't there to stop it (which was the case in Timeline 7), the shot was going right into Doc. Buford said that someone shot with that kind of gun took two days to die, and that was two days before the date indicated on the tombstone. That isn't a coincidence - that's how Doc died the first time around -- Ritchy 20:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Buford was facing Doc when He shot at him at the festival.  He could have just grazed him then.  The gravestone said He was shot in the back.  Clara may have danced with Buford originally too.  RobertCMWV1974 23:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doc thought he was safe at the festival, since he told Buford he was "early", until Buford tells him that his bullet would cause death in two days. Then, he thought he'd be safe if he dared Buford to shoot him while facing him, since Marty showed him the tombstone photo that said he was shot in the back. In the previous 1885 timeline, he didn't know enough to turn around and was shot. GUllman 00:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite possibly, given Doc's cavalier, confident attitude towards Buford's threats during the hanging scene, he didn't give much though to Buford's talk of shooting him during the dance the first time around (without Marty), but given the information that he had, in fact, died during that scene, gave him reason to react to Buford, while the last time, he may have acted less confrontational, and simply tried to walk away from Buford's taunts, like he always tried to tell Marty to, thus getting him shot in the back and dying on Monday, two days later. --X 0 04:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: When Doc Got Shot

message: The timeline illustration is missing Doc's solo visit to 2015 at the end of Part I. It should be a two-headed arrow on Timeline 2, since Doc went mainly as a spectator and the visit had no real effect on the timeline. It therefore wouldn't have created a new one. --Zpb52
:It wasn't just one trip to 2015.  Doc made several trips to 2015 to pinpoint the point on the timeline when Marty's family went wrong, the arrest and conviction of Marty's son.  There were also the many trips that he had made to get the hovercar conversion, the Mr. Fusion and all of the cash that he had in the briefcase.  All that we can say is that he made one trip to 2015, several indeterminant trips, then returned to 1985 (presumably from its future). Val42 03:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doc alone to 2015 

message: Since Doc had one of the walkie-talkies with him in the delorean, and then left it in the delorean for 70 years, then how was the 70 year old walkie-talkie able to still work?  RobertCMWV1974 03:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who said he left his walkie talkie in the DeLorean for 70 years? My guess is he kept it in his blacksmith shop, and didn't bury it with the time machine. So it was only 9 months old when he was using it in 1885. -- Ritchy 15:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Young Doc handed Marty both walkie-talkies with fresh batteries before Marty headed to 1885.  It was obviously left in the time machine.  RobertCMWV1974 21:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright then. Maybe they were a new pair of walkie-talkies? Marty realised how useful they were to keep in touch in Part II, and anticipated that they would not have any means of communication in 1885, so he went out and bought a new set of talkies before leaving. -- Ritchy 21:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The radio shack archer walkie talkies wouldn't have been available in 1955 to buy.  If they had been, they wouldn't have needed huge cat-9 batteries strapped to them with tape.  One was with Marty as the delorean got struck, so that one was only a weeks old, but the other had been with doc and is now over 70 years old.  Since the dry, subterranean mine preserved the electrics of the delorean itself (with the exception of the pre-burnt flight control chip and time control chip) it's not out of the realm of sensibility to think that it would have also preserved the circuitry of the radio for this long. --X 0 14:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: They're identical in Parts II & III. And it's yet another a visual joke made by combining items from two time periods -- small 1985 walkie-talkies taped to oversized 1955 batteries. GUllman 05:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Walkie Talkies