Talk:Government Issue

message: Edited article to recount the brief but spectacular return of GI. It was like stepping into a time machine back to 1986, only my mullet was gone. --Sofa King 11:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007 reunion show 

message: Anyone care to write something about 2010 Reunion show that happened a couple of hours ago? It was written about here and most likely elsewhere:
* http://www.riotfest.org/news/2010/aug/20/government-issue-plans-reunion-show-december/
* http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2010/08/government_issu.html
Dasilva (talk) 07:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's already there. Check "Post-breakup activity". --IllaZilla (talk) 14:19, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  2010 reunion show in DC 

message: Terrible article written by people who know nothing about punk. It's ashamed that bands like Government Issue, or most punk bands for that matter, get regaled to a collection of footnotes of critics who didn't understand, compiled by people who understand even less. Things that those people only read about, who now just read about what they wrote, with no knowledge or connection of really happened or even try to understand. Some footnotes to a few opinionated references regurgitated as "facts" is not equal to knowledge or understanding. Try again.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.127.159.83 (talk) 05:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What the hell are you going on about? The article is well-sourced and gives a decent account of the band's history and influence. Half the quotes are from the band members and other musicians (Brian Baker, J. Robbins, Dave Smalley), so I don't know what you're complaining about. All opinions are properly attributed to their authors. If you're looking for some gushing fan-praise or something like that, an encyclopedia probably isn't the place for you. Try again. --IllaZilla (talk) 05:49, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Steve Huey of Allmusic notes that the band "carried the torch for traditional hardcore punk on their early records, but evolved into something more adventurous by adding bits of metal, new wave pop, and psychedelia"' ..this is exactly what I'm talking about. An article based on the "opinions" of people far removed from the facts. Bands like Government Issue weren't "adding" bits of metal, new wave pop and "psychedelia?"...it was the opposite, heavy metal took influence from hardcore punk and new wave was a pop friendly off-shoot of the punk scene. To say originators in the punk scene took influence from styles of music they actually influenced to begin with shows a lack of understanding about punk in general. Your looking at the early punk scene through modern culture. Your referencing the supposed influences of punk bands like Government Issue, and most punk bands on Wikipedia, through what they themselves influenced, not what influenced them. Don't believe me? Just look at the reference to The Damned in the article. "By 1986's Government Issue Stabb was moving in a more melodic direction influenced by the gothic rock of The Damned". The Damned started in 1975, well before the "goth" scene. Later albums from G.I. were influenced by first wave punk bands, not the styles of the era. Most of the references are based on the opinions of music critics who were never there. Someone's personal opinions that are now "fact"? Just because someone got some articles published in some zines talking about Government Issue doesn't mean anything and to base most of the information on a band like G.I. in a supposed definitive article on Wikipedia based on these opinions means even less. I'm not looking for "gushing fan-praise", I just want an accurate article. Don't base your facts on opinions.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.127.159.83 (talk) 09:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Blah, blah, blah...Wikipedia content is based on reliable sources, not original research and the the opinions of editors. Steve Huey is a professional music critic and journalist writing for a longstanding and well-respected music publication, as is Aaron Burges of Alternative Press, who also notes how their later recordings "draw ideas from pop, goth, psychedelia, Middle Eastern music and beyond". And this makes perfect sense, because of course by the late '80s the genres of pop, new wave, metal, goth, etc. were all well-established; it's perfectly logical that Government Issue could incorporate elements of other genres that existed at the time (it doesn't matter if these genres, like hardcore, had origins in punk rock). If you want to write your own history of punk rock and have it published by a reputable publisher, feel free. But Wikipedia's going to continue to hold to its policies, including verifiability and no original research. --IllaZilla (talk) 19:10, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "Wikipedia content is based on reliable sources, not original research". Funny you should mention that, the opinions of Steve Huey and Aaron Burges are original research. It's just their opinions. They don't even give even examples of what G.I. songs their referencing. Steve Huey just churned out articles by the thousands (around 13,000 to be exact) for a website that's more a content farm than respected publication. I would hardly call that a "reliable source". If you agree with their opinions than give me some examples. Anyone can crap out an article on the internet. And like I mentioned before both Steve Huey and Aaron Burges are judging G.I. from a modern perspective. A perfect example is saying later G.I. albums took influence from pop music. What "pop" musicians or bands were they taking influence from? Do you remember what pop music sounded like in the 80's? Or Goth? Please tell me what G.I. songs sound "goth". Now you can definitely hear the influence of bands like Black Market Baby on later G.I. albums, something John Stabb has mentioned in several interviews, but is something that is completely missed in the Wikipedia article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.127.159.83 (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, Wikipedia relies on reliable sources and not on editor opinions. You are entitled to disagree with what the critics/journalists say, but they and their publications are widely regarded as reliable and authoritative in the field of music and they meet Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources. The opinions of anonymous internet persons, however, do not. This is an encyclopedia: we gather information from secondary sources to create our articles, and reflect what those sources say about the topic. Research writing is based on what the sources say, not on the writer's own opinions. If you have access to additional reliable sources that cover Government Issue, and would care to add content to the article and cite those sources, that would most certainly be welcome. But unless you can provide reliable sources that back up your assertions, then the point is moot. As for the pop music influences, today I added quotes to the "Style and influence" section from John Stabb himself where he says the band "moved on from the hardcore world into melodic, well-crafted punk with a decidedly pop edge". Are you saying that Stabb himself is wrong when he says his music took on a "decidedly pop edge"? --IllaZilla (talk) 03:49, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rant 

message: FEBRUARY 22, 2015: The Ottobar, Baltimore, MD
*Lineup: Stabb – vocals, John Barry – guitar, Dwayne Bruner – bass, Karl Hill – drums
FEBRUARY 27, 2015: Fitzgerald's, Houston, TX (Bad Ass Weekend Festival)
*Lineup: Stabb – vocals, John Barry – guitar, Dwayne Bruner – bass, Karl Hill – drums
--Cheapcop (talk) 17:29, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for bringing these topics here for discussion. The main problem here is sourcing. The reason I've reverted your last few additions is that about 6 years ago I rewrote this article to save it from deletion, taking care to ensure that every statement in it was cited to reliable sources. I certainly don't own the article, but I do feel a sort of stewardship toward it in that I believe it's important to ensure that anything added to it is also accurately and reliably sourced. Wikipedia has some guidelines on what counts as a "reliable source", which go along with the policy on verifiability. The sources you list above don't seem to meet these thresholds, as they appear to be zines, blogs, and college radio sites. Not that what they say about GI's gigs and lineups isn't true, we just need sources of a higher caliber in order to keep the article up to verifiability standards. I've done some searching myself, but the only mentions of later GI tours and lineups I could find were sparse and mostly came from BrooklynVegan. I suggest checking out Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources; it's a handy list of music sources that a number of experienced Wikipedians have checked out and agreed that they meet the threshold for reliability. Maybe one of them covers this information and could be cited. It's often difficult to find quality sources to support stuff like this, as this kind of information doesn't tend to get much coverage outside of 'zines, blogs, and local music rags. --IllaZilla (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: 2015 Houston, TX show (Bad Ass Weekend Fest) http://www.houstonpress.com/music/bad-ass-weekend-1-third-installment-lives-up-to-name-6508511 --Cheapcop (talk) 01:39, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

text: 2014 Washington, DC “Legless Bull” reunion show (Damaged City Fest) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/going-out-guide/wp/2014/04/10/8-things-to-do-in-the-d-c-area-the-weekend-of-april-11-13/  John Stabb, John Barry, Brain Gay & Karl Hill --Cheapcop (talk) 05:38, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That Houston Press source does seem reliable. I'll add a mention to the article, citing it. --IllaZilla (talk) 05:30, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Try the The Washington Post article for the 2014 Reunion in DC at Damaged CIty Fest, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/going-out-guide/wp/2014/04/10/8-things-to-do-in-the-d-c-area-the-weekend-of-april-11-13/ as well as the relaible print reference: https://books.google.com/books?id=zrD_CgAAQBAJ&dq=%22government+issue%22+%22Damaged+City+Festival%22&hl=en&sa=X&output=reader&pg=GBS.PA127 Lineup: Stabb – vocals, John Barry – guitar, Brian Gay – bass, Karl Hill – drums. --Cheapcop (talk) 20:37, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I went ahead and added the 2014 reunion show with source and flyer. Before you decide to remove whatever work and research I've done let's first discuss it here. That was the final "reunion" show. The rest up to his death were done as  cohesive group with the intent of continuing for as long as Stabb wanted to. "Government Issue is a group again, and it was so much fun playing Damaged City Fest 2014, we decided to just keep it going" - John Stabb. --Cheapcop (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  2015 shows and lineups