Talk:Raven-Symoné

message: The so-called upcoming fifth album has not seen any action since January, with a fifteen-second sound bite interview on some red carpet event when she claimed she was working on it. Since then, nothing has been published about her progress, she's got a full time job on a TV sitcom, and the album still doesn't have a name. WP:CRYSTAL is policy and says we cannot chase rumors or predict the future. Therefore I think it is inappropriate to herald a section header with "Upcoming fifth album" and it should be reduced to perhaps usefully read "2008–present: Self-titled album and tour". Elizium23 (talk) 13:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: . Maybe in that section we could just say "Symoné confirmed of working on a fifth studio album." and nothing else since there's no update. Also a "Untitled fifth album" should be included in her discography section. AJona1992 (talk) 21:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Upcoming fifth album 

message: Wow, the writing on this page sometimes reads like it wasn't written by a native English speaker.  I don't have any interest in fixing this article, but someone who cares might consider spending some time on basic spelling and grammar.  Wuapinmon (talk) 17:29, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You can request a WP:GOCE - where someone will copyedit the entire article, and also nominating the article at WP:PR - where someone will provide a comprehensive review of what needs to be done. Best, AJona1992 (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrible Writing 

message: Doesn't anyone have a better photo of her to post up in here? The main photo posted makes her look twice her age and other uncomplimentary stuff; she is so much more attractive than that. What's the matter with y'all?70.190.205.226 (talk) 02:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I thought I was the only one who thought so.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.188.93 (talk) 01:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly Thirded, it barely looks anything like her! There's a much better one further down the page, and it's also more recent being from 2011; I propose removing the current picture at the top altogether and replacing it with that one.121.75.135.255 (talk) 03:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you mean :File:Raven-Symoné 2011.jpg then I heartily agree. It's a great picture and would do well in the infobox. By all means let's go ahead with that. Elizium23 (talk) 03:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Done; Much better image.Number36 (talk) 20:17, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What an Unflattering Picture of Her! 

message: This says Raven Symone is an American model, but offers no examples of her doing it professionally. 160.39.56.63 (talk) 19:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed.—Kww(talk) 22:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Model? 

message: Just a little hint, she was born in 1986, not in 1985. Please fix it to 1986. 
--MagiGiruma (talk) 01:31, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Elizium23 (talk) 03:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking through the article, I actually don't see a citation for the year she was born, actually. This Huffington Post article from December states that she turned 27, so, yes, that would mean she was born in 1985.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 03:41, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The MSN biography says 1985. I am not sure how reliable it is. IMDb says 1985 also, but we know that IMDb is user-edited. Elizium23 (talk) 04:09, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The biography link doesn't work, and besides that, I don't believe we're supposed to use biographies for such info.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 04:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthdate 

message: Can this material please be worded to match the citation. she did not announce that she is a lesbian, well not in so many or those words. Thank you.--Malerooster (talk) 03:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am puzzled, have you read this source? The headline reads: "Raven-Symone says she's a lesbian, grateful for legalized gay marriage". The first sentence reads: "(CNN) -- Raven-Symone, who played 3-year-old Olivia on the 1980s sitcom "The Cosby Show," indicated for the first time Friday that she is a lesbian.". It is WP:OR to analyze what she said for yourself. The reliable secondary source clearly says that she came out. As a lesbian. Elizium23 (talk) 03:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I did read it. I think the writer of that piece is actually engaging in OR by saying that she came out. I just think that the wording should be tweeked possibly. The subject of the article has been very careful in the past to NOT discuss her sexuality openly and we usually err on the side of caution until the person self identifies as such. The writer of the piece has taken upon himself to say she has come out, which in all appreances it looks like she did for the most part, without actually saying the words, "I am gay". This might be splitting hairs, just trying to get it right or left or what have you. --Malerooster (talk) 15:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I also removed the categories for now. There is no rush here, and possible the subject will comment further or not. We also might get more reliable sources to discuss this as well and we can use them. We don't have to be the news here. What do others think? Maybe get imput from the BLP board, that always seems useful? --Malerooster (talk) 15:47, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a new section at the BLP board so hopefully others will comment, or not :). --Malerooster (talk) 15:53, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

text: I agree, I think much of the media here is engaging in OR, by calling her a lesbian. She hasn't yet said this. In fact, she could like women, but not identify as a lesbian, strangely enough. I think this source gives her complete statement: http://straightfromthea.com/2013/08/02/raven-symone-confirms-shes-gay-official-statement-now-what/  Note how she still dodges the identity question. She has been clear in the past that her personal life was her personal life. This is a coming out of sorts, but I don't think we're ready to call her a lesbian. She could potentially be put in a LGBT category. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I would not include the category, for now, but if others think it should be added, so be it. I saw one category readded, but will not revert for now. --Malerooster (talk) 19:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not by any means a leap of logic to see that her original comments were were meant to indicate her orientation. It seems she likes to be coy and cryptic on Twitter and leave the public to figure it out for themselves. But on Wikipedia we are not allowed to interpret what she said for ourselves. We report what secondary reliable sources say. The analysis is done by them, and it seems pretty clear what CNN's analysis is. Elizium23 (talk) 19:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but we can't say much more than "CNN speculated that ...". We can't categorize her based on that.—Kww(talk) 19:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: actually, not true. Her statement can be considered a primary source, and there is no issue with using primary sources if a reasonable person can easily draw a conclusion. Esp in the case of identity, the best source is the person themselves - this is a rather special case, and must be treated differently than a self-claim of being the best musician in the world or something.  may have some useful thoughts to add here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Her statement isn't sufficiently direct. Any categorization of her based on that would run afoul of WP:OR.—Kww(talk) 21:35, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Our assertions aren't based on her statement, they are based on analysis by WP:RS. Is Wikipedia based on them or not? Elizium23 (talk) 21:38, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why I said "CNN speculates that ..." or some variation is acceptable. CNN is a reliable source, and CNN's speculations are notable.—Kww(talk) 21:45, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Its actually Michael Martinez who wrote that "Raven says she is a lesbian" when she did not use those exact words. Her representatives clarified that she supports gay marriage. Maybe mention that the media took her statement as a signal of her coming out or some such words, I don't know. Again, again, all I am saying is that we can not say the Raven said that she is a lesbian, because she didn't, in those exact words of course. My head is starting to hurt :) --Malerooster (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

text: gessh, why can't I articulate a point like that, I guess that is why I am a math teacher and not English :) I would agree with what Bearcat said :) --Malerooster (talk) 23:18, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

text: https://twitter.com/MissRavenSymone/status/363360946905153536. You all have something wrong with you. Mentally. Just saying.
Boys and girls, she's a lesbian.  Deal with it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.235.148 (talk) 07:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Not until the word lesbian actually comes out of her own mouth, she isn't. Twitter is never a valid source in and of itself, and that particular tweet (which is exactly what we were already discussing, so kindly spare us the "here's some new information for you" spin) is still too open to interpretation as to what it means. Bearcat (talk) 19:52, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the May 2012 tweet not confirming her sexual orientation, as reported by the CNN article. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:03, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

text: She also rejects the label "African American" - do those categories have to go too (genuine question)?Zythe (talk) 14:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think either of them should be removed. BLPCAT is meant for cases where the news or tabloids report that the subject is in a same-sex relationship but the subject hasn't commented on the matter, not where the subject has stated that it was the legalization of same-sex marriage that made it possible for them to get married if they wished and talked about their same-sex partner. Ms. Raven eschews a number of labels, but not using categories because of that is following the letter of the law at the expense of the spirit and impeding navigation. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Which LGBT related categories should be placed in the category section? I also agree, due to the fact that African-American categories are placed in this page, that LGBT categories should be here as well, but I am not sure which ones.71.233.149.240 (talk) 18:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess it would be categories that are "LGBT" but not "gay" or "lesbian."  The fact that she is in a same-sex relationship makes her LGBT, no matter what labels she does or doesn't use for herself.  But it would be wrong to use a "lesbian" or "bisexual" or "queer" category, because Raven-Symone deliberately refuses to divulge information that would enable her to be accurately placed in such a category.  --DavidK93 (talk) 17:42, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. That's what the community decided to do in the similar case of Jodie Foster, I think. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:12, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, but to use that source to say that she's a lesbian would be drawing a conclusion that the source did not make, something that, as explained at SYNTH, we cannot do. Rebbing 23:09, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coming out 

message: Some people are so famous that a sound spelling is not needed. 0h I cannot stand how insulting this site has gotten lately. What are you people thinking?--24.186.96.236 (talk) 16:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sound spellings? You mean phonetic spelling? Fame has nothing to do with the inclusion of that information. We don't write content with fans in mind, we write content for people who have no idea who the subject is or how to pronounce her name. If you didn't know who the subject was, that pretentious accent over the E would throw you for a loop. The phonetic content will be restored. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:00, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  SOUND SPELLINGS 

message: Does that seem like the best section title? Is the section written with the proper blp tone?
--Malerooster (talk) 00:15, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's a terrible title and I'm glad it has finally been changed.  Thanks.TJ&TheAmericanWay (talk) 17:15, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racially charged public heat 

message: The many [sic]'s during the quotes in the controversy section make the section seem condescending and far from neutral. At the very least, "transracial" should not have [sic] because it is used properly.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.175.63.29 (talk) 04:13, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: - In agreement here. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The [sic]'s in the controversy section 

message: I think we might be getting a little carried away with the depth of coverage of these controversies that the subject is involved in. She, like the other ladies on The View, was obviously hired to be provocative an it doesn't seem sustainable to write paragraphs every time Raven-Symone says something potentially offensive. Thoughts? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I think it's a little out of hand. It needs to be cut down and phrases like "the backlash to Symoné's remarks was swift, widespread and severe" removed and written more neutrally. Melonkelon (talk) 03:24, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha! Fair enough guys! I will cut down the section a bit. AmericanDad86 (talk) 06:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Ok Melonkelon, I have abridged the section astronomically and removed the sentence you took issue with altogether. Hope this helps! Cheers! AmericanDad86 (talk) 06:50, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy collection 

message: Near the end of the personal life section, it talks about Symoné's break-up twice in a row. Please remove the second mention; it's a little unnecessary to talk about the same thing twice in a row.  Thanks. Prhdbt [talk] 19:48, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done I am additionally amused that you said "twice in a row" twice in a row. :) Thanks for the tip. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request 

message: The entire "Controversies with racial overtones" section is extremely concerning. I see from the editing history that the section didn't even exist until a few months ago. I seriously question whether a lot of that content is even important enough to be included in an encylopedia article. Many readers could look at it as a tabloidish, attack section that reeks of WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV, among others. Is someone going to add a new subsection every time she makes a comment regarding race? I should also add that, of the six current subsections, the one about her views on hiring people with "black names" is perhaps the most disturbing because of its extensive length and detail; it easily could have been adequately summed up in just a few sentences. Finally, simply having the words "with racial overtones" in the section heading could indicate to some a motive among those who are inserting all this content into the article. I certainly hope that is not the case. Czoal (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your point is a very good one, Czoal. I notice for instance that Howard Stern, doesn't have much coverage for controversy. And as I've noted two discussions upward on this page, if a person is hired to be controversial, how much effort should we expend to note everything they've done/said that is controversial? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Cyphoidbomb. Your points are very good and relevant. Also, just because a celebrity says something controversial or polarizing doesn't mean it's notable enough to be included in an enyclopedia. With regard to Stern and many others, yes, they have made an endless number of comments in their careers that have prompted short-term media coverage and social media backlashes. But then the incidents are quickly forgotten and have no lasting, significant impact on the person's life or career. And it is that point in particular that should determine if a comment or an incident is important enough to be included in an encyclopedia. I think WP:RECENTISM does an excellent job of explaining the problem with this type of content. The question remains: What should be done about this? Czoal (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think maybe we could wait a moment or two and ping  who did a lot of work in that area. I know he's interested in doing right by the article. , got any thoughts? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:12, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Beyond the problem with the content itself, the fact that six separate subsections were created only increases the prominence of this very contentious information because of the big, bold headings. If it's decided that any or all of these incidents are important enough to be included, then I believe that each of them should only be a few sentences or a short paragraph at most, and all of the subsections need to be removed. Czoal (talk) 22:22, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

text: You have a lot of flipping nerve coming in and deleting that much material without first discussing. Don't ever do it again. You come in and take it upon yourself to remove an entire well-sourced section of material without first discussing like that and you think I am not going to censure you upside down and inside out, you must be crazy. Then you came up with the most asinine objection I have ever heard, that it's not weaved into the rest of the article. No, we do not weave fact about controversies in the career section. Please look up Wikipedia policy. Just because you don't like that the media has been centrally focused on Raven Symone for the last three weeks and would rather not like the information in the article doesn't mean you get your way. AmericanDad86 (talk) 04:51, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

text: *, folks must have been crazy when they made  and me admins; either way, we seem to disagree with you. I think it is a serious BLP violation. And there's two more editors here who disagree. It is best not to restore that section. Drmies (talk) 04:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) AmericanDad86, "well-sourced" content in and of itself by no means automatically qualifies it to be included. The content must also be notable and significant enough to be included in an encylopedia and, if it is, be presented in a balanced manner. This content, in my opinion, isn't even close to meeting those basic standards. Please address the specific concerns listed above by the other editors. Czoal (talk) 05:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: *I have just blocked AmericanDad for comments made elsewhere. Perhaps he'll resume this in 48 hours, perhaps not. Drmies (talk) 05:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea where that crap came from. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:12, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Cyphoidbomb, thank you very much for replying to my intial concerns so quickly and being so willing to help resolve this issue. I had no idea you were an admin until I read Drmies' comments a few minutes ago. And thanks to the other editors for giving your input. Czoal (talk) 05:31, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Comment: Regarding the content in question, which Drmies was the last one to remove, I'm stopping by to state that we do sometimes have criticism or controversy sections in WP:BLP articles, such as in the case of the WP:Good article Kanye West; in cases of controversial figures like West, having the content in the career sections of the article is commonly not the best solution. And WP:Criticism is an essay, which I (and others) have partly disagreed with, anyway. That stated, the content that Drmies removed was presented in a way that is not close to ideal, as noted above. I do think that the content belongs in the article, though, but with better wording and formatting (including cuts where needed), whether it's integrated into the career portions of the article or not. Flyer22 (talk) 16:45, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, true, and that's why I said "disparaged", not "forbidden". Sure there are cases, but I didn't see yet why this should be one. Some of the content may belong in the article, certainly, but not when done in this fashion. Drmies (talk) 17:29, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

text:  Some of that material may make it back, and probably should. But not in a WP:COATRACK fashion, and while avoiding presenting minutiae  as if it was relevant or notable. -  Cwobeel (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

text:  I invite interested editors to look at the sourcing of the deleted material. IMO, 99% of the sources do not meet the threshold for BLPs. So, if any of that material is to make it back, it will require a much higher quality of sources to warrant inclusion. -  Cwobeel (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The primary issue is not about the sources, as concerning as they may be, but rather about the importance (notability) of the content itself. As Drmies appropriately alluded to in his edit summary, it's simply "a collection of factoids chained to the news and twitter cycle". The fact that she makes some random, controversial statements that social media and some media outlets gossip about for a few days doesn't automatically make it worthy enough to be included in an encylopedia. And clearly, as was also pointed out, the content was written and displayed in a highly non-neutral and POV manner, which some could say resembled an attack section. To me, the section header itself, "Controversies with racial overtones," was the clearest indicator of the section's inappropriate intent. Beyond the obvious undue weight issues overall, some of the content was just pure nonsense. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that controversial statements by a celebrity should only be included in their article if they have a significant impact culturally or in the person's life or career, and of course can be verified by high-quality sources. I don't think any of those conditions are met in this case. Czoal (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. Note that I used "if" to precede my argument above. -  Cwobeel (talk) 22:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Controversies with racial overtones" section 

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replies: text: They look like they work to me. Flipped switch to "true". Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: User:184.88.43.62 has repeatedly restored :Category:Americans promising to leave the country if Trump is elected, without offering any justification here or in the edit summary for its restoration (diff1, diff2, diff3).
This category seems to be a fairly straightforward violation of WP:OPINIONCAT, which includes "Avoid categorizing people by their personal opinions, even if a reliable source can be found for the opinions. This includes supporters or critics of an issue..."  The fact that Raven-Symonè's opinion is expressed as a "promise" doesn't strike me as significant enough to make a difference.
If Trump is actually elected, and if R-S actually establishes permanent residence in another country and attributes that fact to his election, then it might be appropriate to put her in a category like "Persons who expatriated themselves because of Donald Trump's election".  For now, however, the category is based on her opinion, and should be emptied and deleted. — Ammodramus (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The category doesn't stand a chance at surviving. I voiced my thoughts the deletion discussion earlier today. I think the editor means well, but it doesn't belong at Wikipdia per WP:OPINIONCAT as you noted. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trump category 

message: The subject is referred to numerous times as "Symoné" as though we're using Symoné as a surname to satisfy WP:SURNAME. Is that right? Shouldn't we either refer to her as Pearman, or as Raven-Symoné if we're observing the mononym? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:SURNAME]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Like me like u please be on life time Nana meinie (talk) 11:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Love hell time 

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message: As Raven came out as nonbinary, shouldn't we change the "women" categories to reflect that?Mcc1789 (talk) 01:47, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Also Lesbian and female categories as well. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:01, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonbinary 

message: Raven-Symoné recently revealed on TikTok that her name is actually pronounced "See-mon-ye": https://www.tiktok.com/@ravensymone/video/7190499674393038126?lang=en 2601:195:C001:2630:E451:37F0:9427:A09C (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct Name Pronunciation