Talk:Air (video game)/Archive 3

message: Now that this article has become a Good Article, I am going to initiate the process for the article to be peer reviewed so that perhaps it might gain Featured Article status. Please place any comments on the peer review page, linked at the top of this page.---- (十八) 02:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer review 

message: Due to official artwork such as this and this, taken from the OP of the original game, I am changing Minagi's surname to Tohno.---- (十八) 10:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minagi's surname 

message: "The first versions of the visual novel are criticized for its inclusion of these scenes, which are thought to be out of place and detract from the actual plot of the visual novel. For this reason, Key released subsequent editions of Air without the erotic content."
I believe there is a lack of foundation in this statement, and would require citation.  If one considers the primary audience of visual novels, it is hard to believe that the inclusion of H-scenes called for significant criticism.  In fact, I believe one of the greater criticisms of Clannad, was the lack of H-scenes.
I believe the correct explanation of why subsequent releases of Air removed the scenes was because they were released on consoles, which are much more restricted as far as pornographic content goes.  In fact, the DVD re-release of Air included the H-scenes.  I understand that such scenes do draw some criticism, but as it is stated now, i believe that it is a misrepresentation of the true state of affairs.  I believe this may have been brought up before, so I am merely asking for a citation or better proof. Pifactor 10:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Note on Criticism

message: While I understand I might have waited too long to bring this up, but why is the title Air (series) when Air is not a series? (ie. there is no succession, no prequels and sequels, etc). At best, it is a franchise. I propose to move this page to Air (visual novel) or similar, since the TV anime and the movie have their own articles, and all adaptations originated from the game anyways. Please discuss. _dk 16:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I do agree on the point that the article should have been renamed a long time, I disagree on what should be the designation. At WikiProject Anime and manga, it is listed here which states that for a game related article, the designation should be as follows: Game related - title (game). I do realize why you chose to use the visual novel designation for One (visual novel) though I believe due to this convention, it should go back to simply (game). As such, I also would like to see this article renamed to Air (game) like it was so many months before.--(十八) 21:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me. _dk 06:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't really see anyone finding a reason to disagree with this, so I've tagged Air (game) for speedy delete so we can move this article to that title. -- Ned Scott 07:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All done. -- Ned Scott 08:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I still believe that the category, though renamed to Category: Air (game), should be kept; if nothing else, there's a multitude of images still there. Also, thanks of the page move.--(十八) 10:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether we choose to rename it or delete it, we'd still have to put it on WP:CFD. Let the community decide what to do with it there. _dk 11:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could see this easily being speedied for the same reason the page move was. Doesn't matter to me, though. -- Ned Scott 08:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Series"

message: I moved the article from Air (game) to Air (visual novel) since that Air (computer game) article really kinda screwed with the old name(s) and the use of "(game)" has been/is being phased out for video game articles. Anyways, there are a number of other possible namespaces we could move it to if where I moved it to troubles anyone: Air (2000 video game) or Air (Key) to name two. However, considering how visual novels are only barely even considered "games" in the first place, I rather prefer to use (visual novel).--SeizureDog 07:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But just going off WP:Anime#Article name, shouldn't it be (game) like it says there?--十八 07:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: New suggestion: All right, we can start using (visual novel) to denote visual novel related articles that conflict with common names, like Air. To do this then, shouldn't the convention at WP:Anime#Article name be renamed, or at the very least have a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual novels where we can write in the convention ourselves?--十八 07:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Being phased out? Eh? Wikipedia:Disambiguation says to only disambiguate when necessary.. Naming conventions generally should be discussed on Wikipedia-wide talk pages, too. I can't help but think that (visual novel) is being pushed simply because there is now a visual novel WikiProject. -- Ned Scott 08:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved it back to Air (game) for now, since it was less work to do that than moving talk archives, updating their double redirects, and fixing the left-over double redirects from the main move itself. Something about this just seems needless to me, so I think we should take this to WP:RM. -- Ned Scott 08:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, (game) is being phased out, usually to (video game) or (computer game) (e.g. Black (video game), Black & White (computer game)) but that doesn't work here anymore since it conflicts with the other computer game named Air. I don't really care if it's (visual novel) or something else, but (game) is just horribly unspecific for any video game article, I think it's especially bad here since visual novels are only "games" in the loosest sense. The standard for multiple games of the same title is a little less consistant, so we don't really have anything to follow there. Ghostbusters (video game) goes by company, but the other Air game wasn't even made by a company, so that might not be the best choice. So basically, it's either (visual novel) or (2000 video game), but not (2000 computer game) since it got ports and also not Air (video game) because a computer game is still a video game (and would thus conflict with the other article. The year format goes along with how films are handled, but I simply prefer the (visual novel) since that is how the lead identifies it. Also sorry that I missed the discussion directly above this one.--SeizureDog 08:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I'm now pushing for Air (2000 video game). Film articles handle themselves by year, so I guess video game articles should be as well. The '(game)' most certainly should be switched to '(video game)' in some way though, as the Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games has stopped using that for quite a while now. In any case, I hate moving a page more than once, but I'll probably do so until discussion pops up here again.--SeizureDog 06:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, after thinking about it.. visual novel or any of the others suggested seem fine. Whatever works. I don't think the year is required, though, if there is only one video game / novel/ whatever by that name. -- Ned Scott 05:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I think Air (visual novel) is best, though. _dk 22:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: lol, damnit, only after I convince myself that an alternative should be used you guys support my original idea? Such a tease. Moving back to (visual novel) since Ned Scott was the one that objected in the first place.--SeizureDog 04:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All right, glad a consensus was reached. Now all we need to do is move :Category:Air (series) to :Category:Air (visual novel). Additionally, I added to the article naming conventions at WP:Anime#Article name to include visual novels.--十八 06:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would :Category:Air (series) need to be moved? The category is used for all mediums. --SeizureDog 06:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I guess you're right.--十八 08:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, Air is no series. _dk 11:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I guess you have a point there. "Category:Air (media franchise)" has a odd ring to it, but I guess that's what it technically is.--SeizureDog 11:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: The theme section seems to be discussing motifs rather than the themes of the game itself.  Keep in mind that a motif is a recurring symbol, and that a theme is what the symbols represent.  The discussion of "air, skies, and wings" for example merely gives examples of how those particular symbols appear throughout the game/anime; therefore, they should be called "motifs," not themes. If one was to say, for example, the air represents the characters' desires for freedom, then "desire for freedom" would be a theme.  Keep in mind that wikipedia is not for original research, so making any such conclusions would require a citation.  Also, I haven't seen this anime/played this game so I have no idea what themes it could really be trying to get accross; I just used the "freedom" thing as an example. Anyway, someone who knows what they're doing should fix this.  Maybe rename the section to Motifs and/or find citations for possible themes.  75.60.182.129 06:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, a theme and a motif are near syntonyms. It's rather stupid and confusing, and I wish that the articles had some actual sources to back themselves up. Both words have multiple meanings depending on the context. My dictionary says that a 'theme' is "subject or topic on which one speaks or writes", while a 'motif' is "a usu. recurring salient thematic element or feature (as in a work of art; esp: a dominant idea or theme". Basically, I've always thought of a motif as the most important or reoccuring theme in a work. But I dunno, is there something official we can look at to clarify the difference?--SeizureDog 22:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe he's talking about theme (literature) rather than the general sense of the word. _dk 00:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is, which use of 'theme' applies to Air? I mean, the visual novel is very literature-ish obviously, but the adaptations certainly aren't.--SeizureDog 03:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To delve into the literary themes would be OR unless we could get some staff interviews, so I don't think we can write about that. _dk 03:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theme vs. Motif 

message: ===Images===
I find it slightly amusing that, apart from the infobox image, the only image in the article is that of cameo characters from another series. Shiroi Hane 09:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well. Article is at its premature stages. Every character and episode has their own individual artcles and related images, or at least they will have once I am done. --Cat out 18:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I haven't seen any information about the blu-ray, but I'll try to find something.--(十八) 04:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, the average income is higher in Japan.  However, anime/video game companies tend to charge more over there because of the crazy otaku fanbase that will buy absolutely anything, no matter how expensive.  Anyway, the Blu-ray discs of Air seem like a waste of money to me; other than the new OP, none of it is actually HD.  It's just upscaled, which is quite lame. Moogy (talk) 19:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved from Air (anime) merger

message: I find it slightly amusing that, apart from the infobox image, the only image in the article is that of cameo characters from another series. Shiroi Hane 09:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well. Article is at its premature stages. Every character and episode has their own individual artcles and related images, or at least they will have once I am done. --Cat out 18:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: The Dream arc is up to episode 7, not 6. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.231.13.169 (talk) 11:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dream Arc

message: Air (TV series) → Air (anime) — In accordance with Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga#Article name I propose to move this page to Air (anime).---- (十八) 23:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: =====Survey - Support votes=====
*This seems non-controversial enough to qualify for a speedy. I've tagged Air (anime) with a speedy delete tag for a page move, WP:CSD#G6. -- Ned Scott 00:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: *This seems non-controversial enough to qualify for a speedy. I've tagged Air (anime) with a speedy delete tag for a page move, WP:CSD#G6. -- Ned Scott 00:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - Support votes

message: *Oppose - see WP:TV-NC--Sig0 01:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - Oppose votes

message: *Wait a second, isn't it conflicting to have both Air (anime) and Air (film) articles? The film is still an anime after all.--SeizureDog 22:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: Jesus Christ, $250 for one season? There's no way that's going to fly in America. Japan sure gets screwed in the electronics department. Anyways, can we get some information as to if the blu-ray version sold well? --SeizureDog 03:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't seen any information about the blu-ray, but I'll try to find something.--(十八) 04:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, the average income is higher in Japan.  However, anime/video game companies tend to charge more over there because of the crazy otaku fanbase that will buy absolutely anything, no matter how expensive.  Anyway, the Blu-ray discs of Air seem like a waste of money to me; other than the new OP, none of it is actually HD.  It's just upscaled, which is quite lame. Moogy (talk) 19:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The blu-ray

message: Any word on if this anime will be in English one day? I think it'd be nice to mention it in the article, too. ;) Vael Victus (talk) 04:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The anime's license is already mentioned in the article, though mainly in the Anime sub-section of the Adaptations section. The anime was licensed and released in English not too long ago.--十八 04:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, Vael seems to be a bit behind the times. "One day"? Psh, entire series and film are already released in English. Dub isn't half bad either from what I've seen. "GET AWAY FROM MY RAMEN".--SeizureDog (talk) 07:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Anime

message: I have delisted this article from GA status. There are many unreferenced statements, including almost all of the Setting and themes, Movie, Music, and Gameplay sections. This badly fails criteria 2a and 2b of the Good article criteria regarding verifiability and factual accuracy. There also seems to be an excessive amount of plot (nearly 2 pages in word, and almost 850 words not even counting the character summaries). When the referencing issues are fixed, and the plot sections tightened up, feel free to renominate.AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA delisting

message: GA review in accordance with the GA criteria
#Well written?: Article looks to be well-written and follows Wikipedia's manual of style.
#Factually accurate?: Article is well sourced and sources look to satisfy Wikipedia's guidelines for reliable sources
#Broad in coverage?: The articles covers the standard subtopics I'd expect to see in a video game article and then some.
#Neutral point of view?: The article does not seem biased or to push a specific POV.
#Article stability? Article appears stable; no edit wars.
#Images?: Image use is not excessive and all images have appropriate FUR
The most pressing issues were addressed. All others are minor details and not enough to withhold GA status. All in all this is a good article and a good model for other visual novel articles. Good job and keep up the good work. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA pass

message: FYI- The VG Project article guidelines have been revised, and part of the guidelines (WP:VGSCOPE) pertain to prices in articles. The specific part cites Wikipedia's WP:NOTCATALOG as the rationale behind it. Discussions and questions pertaining to the guideline can be directed to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prices in article 

message: I have started this thread per the removal and reinsertion of the image :File:Air TV DVD Vol 01.png.
As far as I can tell, the image meets fair use criteria. The similarity between the game and the DVD in art styles is not, in and of itself, reason to remove one of the two images, as they depict two different adaptations in two different mediums entirely. I found this while looking for oversized images to shrink, so I will not be monitoring the conversation, only ensuring that it takes place before the image is deleted. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The image does not have a proper fair use rationale. The image is used as a cover image for this article, and fair use policies only allow for one cover image unless the second cover image received significant response. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 09:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image inclusion discussion: File:Air TV DVD Vol 01.png