Talk:Kelly pool

message: The sentence at the end of the 2nd paragraph, "Thus, multiple-time world champion Steve Mizerak explains that behind the eight ball cannot derive from the game of eight ball as 'the phrase predates the game ... by at least 20 years.' seems to contradict the rest of the paragraph.  If the phrase is traceable to 1919 (also there is no citation for this statement that it is traceable to 1919) and "the game that would ultimately be named eight ball was invented shortly after 1900", then this statement makes no sense without further explanation. Mckayje3 (talk) 14:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: When citations appear at the end of a sentence they are for the information contained in that sentence. I have two citations at the end of the sentence. Moreover, I even named in the beginning sentence, in text, the two sources where the information comes from. Accordingly I have no idea what you could mean when you say that the 1919 information is uncited. As for the contradiction you find, there is none. Please read the paragraph again. The form of a game that developed into what would ultimately be called 8-ball was invented or began being played around 1900, but that precursor game didn't use numbered balls—there was no numbered 8 ball, and it wasn't called 8-ball for good reason—again there was no physical 8 ball used. The game of 8-ball, called that and using a physical 8-ball came much later. Mizerak is referring to the modern game called 8-ball and using an 8-ball, as occurring at least 20 years after "behind the 8 ball", as a phrase, was used.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:26, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have tweaked the language slightly to more clearly highlight the distinction between the precursor game's invention and the later, named game, using the physical 8 ball it is named after.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:51, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Except that the leaps in logic are not mine, but come directly from the secondary, independent sources I cited for the material. (Nor are they a tiny minority view, but: i) are the main sources discussing the origins; ii) cross-corroborate each other; and iii) are from leading-light, subject matter experts [it doesn't get any better than Mike Shamos, Bob Jewett, Billiards Digest, the Billiard Congress of America, et al.) Your edit summary, that the material is "not actually supported by the sources" is wrong; that is "rests on an obscure rule variant" is wrong (unless you're just talking about "Kelly Rotation" which is just a tiny side note, instead of as you imply, a global issue, properly descriptive of the majority of the removals); that it is "only claimed by one weak source" is wrong, and "therefore is not collaborated" is wrong.Your note reads exactly as it should, and what I would agree with, if what was at issue were citations to primary sources and the proponent editor was synthesizing them to come his or her own, original research, conclusions. Since contrarily, the secondary sources verify this content directly (regarding what I would argue is absolutely fascinating material—and, at an editorial judgment level, is probably more important to include than the content on the game), your removal because you are dubious about the underlying logic is essentially a form of I-don't-like-it, "reverse" original research.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:03, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification on Behind the Eight Ball section 

message: This article gives no information about how to determine what order the players shoot in. Determining who goes first, second, third and so on is a very important part of the game. I have been playing Pea Pool for many years, but our rules are quite different and more complete than what was described in the article since our rules define the order in which the players shoot and can account for why you get 16 peas in a set. To play Nor-Cal rules Pea Pool; 2 to 8 players can play. All 16 peas are placed in a cup and the players each choose 2 peas without looking. The players then place one of the peas on the table, which determines the order they shoot in and the other in their pocket. The pea in their pocket represents which billiard ball they either need to hit in to win or will knock them out of the game if another player hits it in. If a player picks the #16 pea they must place that pea on the table, and the other in their pocket. This player will shoot last. The rest of the game is pretty much the same as the articles rules. The balls need to be knocked in in order, and if you knock your own ball in, you win, and if another players knocks your ball in you are out of the game. Wikipedia needs to do some more work with this defenition, since it is missing 2 major elements of the game; the order in which the players shoot, and the 16th pea. Stew Padasso (talk) 18:35, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: We can only include in the article maters that are discussed in reliable sources that verify what we seek to add. Do you know of a reliable source that verifies the information you assert here?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Determining player order

message: This is pretty much how I learned it, except that 16 was considered the "lowest" pill for determining order of play.  Also, of the 2 pills chosen by each player, the lower must be used to determine order and the higher is the secret ball.  This has the effect (on average) of keeping the game from ending quickly or a player be eliminated very early in game.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.126.251.245 (talk) 18:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to Fuhghettaboutit on Player Order

message: In the very last sentence of the article, there's a problem with the citations for the Lewiston Evening Journal. The articles cited are dated 30 years too early; they're from the 1940s, not the 1910s.--Eric (talk) 00:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No they're not and the links to the actual newspaper pages are not behind a pay wall but actually viewable here and here; drag the newspapers to the top of their respective pages and you will see the dates, being March 20, 1917 and October 16, 1916.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I'm wrong, you're right, but I'm totally stumped. Both newspapers have dates listed as the dates I provided above, but then they're talking about President Truman and other anachronisms How bizarre. I have removed the section until and unless I can find other sources.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just a case of bad scanning, which probably happened when they were put on microfilm god knows how long ago.  If you look closely at the image of the first one, you can tell that it's really a '4' not a '1'.  Someone at Google made a mistake in typing in the date on one of them, because they did not look closely.  In the future, probably history books written by AI computers will be telling us that Truman was president in 1917.  --peter (talk) 03:04, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Date problem?

message: I found this article surprising as the only variant to this game I've ever seen and played is where players draw numbers then try to keep them on the table. Drawn numbers become the player's lives, and eliminating all opponents from the table becomes the object. Flexibility, and hence usefullness for any number of players (2-15), makes this an option where an odd number of players wish to compete.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.113.103.230 (talk) 09:44, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's cutthroat (pool), though which numbers you are is often determined by shooting, as explained at that article, rather than by drawn lot. Maybe the two articles should link to each other with a note about their being similar in some respects? — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 01:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Variant 

message: Substituted at 21:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Someone recently added (without a source):  Does anyone have the BCA rulebook handy, to verify this?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable additions 

message: Also, in the picture, one of the peas clearly has no number, but is marked with a castle. What’s that about? 31.94.17.166 (talk) 17:38, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a castle, it's the all-caps word "NINE", and is used along with "SIX" because "6" and "9" would be hard to distinguish.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:07, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture question

message: How do you gamble with this game? And why is it so much more liable to gambling that many places thought they needed to ban it? More info needed.31.94.17.166 (talk) 17:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Gambling