Talk:Nerfing (gaming)

message: That is not the question.   The question is:  "What to talk about in the lead-in section?"
Original:
In computer gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that downgrades the power, effectiveness or influence of a particular game element in the attempt to achieve balance. The term originated as a reference to the NERF brand of child toys, which are made to minimize possible damage. In the same way, "to nerf" describes the action of making something less harmful.
Discussion.
OK, as-is, this is very much an opinion item.  Trying for a neutral PoV, and to be balanced in presenting different interpretations, how about something more like:
In computer gaming, the term nerf is often used to refer to a change that reduces the utility or desirability of any game element, for any reason.  It may refer to an item "They nerfed my Axe of Extreme Coolness!  It now looks just like a rusty axe!", an encounter "They nerfed The Encounter Of Extreme Uberness!  Now *ANYONE* can just zone in and get keyed!  And after all our work in beating the Whatsit Of Doom!", an area "MAN they nerfed the exp in Colossal Plains of Long Running!  I killed 100 zeebaras and got like half a bubble!", a tradeskill, ability, class, or even technical game feature "They nerfed the reconnect thing, and now you have to stay logged out 5 minutes if you /quit out."
There are a number of theories as to how the term entered the gaming jargon.  One idea is that NERF toys are designed to minimize possible damage, and that "nerfing" in computer games reduces the harm done by that game element.  Another is that while it hurts to be hit by a NERF bat, it probably won't cause an injury:  similarly, having one's "Axe of Extreme Coolness" change from a huge glowing axe to a small rusty axe won't injure the player, but it may well "hurt".
There are also many causes for "nerfing".  Developers may find that a feature is exploitable, or it may use too many resources.  They may simply have made an error, or corrected one, with or without knowledge of its impact on one or more players.  It may be the developers' method of correcting a balance issue:  an item or feature might favor a class or style of play, or it might put too much money into a game economy, or it might obsolete future content.
Sinneed (talk) 02:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's all original research. I consider the short version to be much less full of "opinion" than the long one. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Nerf, or not To Nerf!? 

message: No minor improvement is being allowed.  The basic problem being objected to by Thumpy is that the online jargon cannot be sourced, no improvements will be allowed unless sourced.  I am again correcting the lead in.
As an alternative to deletion, I propose changing the article into a stub, containing in whatever format would somehow be acceptable, 3 items:
* nerf is slang/jargon for a negatively perceived change to a game item
* nerf is slang/jargon for *making* a negatively perceived change to a game item
* nerf appears to refer to the "NERF" brand of of toys - though this is not as important, IMO, as the other 2... as it has to do with origin, rather than meaning
If anyone can source usage of nerf, it would be grand to include examples of usage, IMO.
If anyone can source reasons devs and players claim nerfs are good, that would be good, IMO.
If anyone can source reasons devs and players claim nerfs are bad, that would be good, IMO.
All comments, including those made only for effect, are quite welcome.
And, of course, there was no discussion, and no improvement.  Please either stop reversing out my edits or make some kind of improvement. This edit war silliness needs to end.  Reinstating the simple, and not ambiguous, use of nerf as a verb.  Sinneed (talk) 04:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you think the article should be deleted, take it to WP:AFD. Otherwise, please stop repeating yourself ad infinitum on the talk page: creating a new section to repeat what you said yesterday is no helping us to discuss this issue. As for the reverting of your edits, you've been repeatedly told not to insert unsourced material into the article. Rather than spamming the talk page, try breaking your edits down into discrete parts and discussing them here individually. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recommending for deletion. 

message: If you are interested, you may look through the history of a number of terms like nerf, and find that there is much discussion of whether they belong in Wiki at all.
Proposing that if no unsourced changes are to be allowed, and no sourcing is possible, that the article be deleted is not a threat.  It is a realistic alternative, of only 3:
* leave the article as is
* change it
* kill it
I will not leave the article as it.
You will not let me change it.  ( at least not so far )
You will not let me kill it.
If I have missed one, please share it with me.
If there is a way to source online slang, please share it with me, strictly as a courtesy, and I realize I am asking for an unearned favor.
But please, either join in or stop reversing me.  This doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request.Sinneed (talk) 04:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it unlikely that there is not one reliable source for online gaming which makes use of the term "nerf". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

text: (posted and removed)sinneed (talk) 03:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thumperward 

message: "In computer gaming, a nerf is a change, and "to nerf" the act of making a change, that reduces the desirability of a particular game element."
I have been informed that this needs to be different.  I should hope this would be an area that an editor actually interesting in improving the lead-in might contribute.
I think the leadin needs these 3 things to convey what "a nerf" is, and what it means "to nerf" something:
* nerf is slang/jargon for a negatively perceived change to a game item
* nerf is slang/jargon for *making* a negatively perceived change to a game item
* nerf appears to refer to the "NERF" brand of of toys - though this is not as important, IMO, as the other 2... as it has to do with origin, rather than meaning
Sinneed (talk) 04:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a slight edit to the introductory sentence which includes the verb without making the first clause completely meaningless ("a nerf is a change"). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

text: (Added and removed)sinneed (talk) 03:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead-in Version 1 zillion. 

message: It seems the origin of the term has been lost to most, but i was there. Dark Castle MUD circa 1992 (http://www.dcastle.org/). There was a weapon in game called the nerf assault rifle that had a special procedure to automatically cast the spell magic missle on attack. The game's imp increased the damage of magic missle to be based apon character level, which inadvertenly made the weapon vastly more powerful than the norm. The wepaon recieved a significant downgrading to such an extent the weapon was near worthless. Apon further 'rebalancing' of items in the game, the players harkened back to the original downgrading of 'the nerf'. At this time MUDs were pretty much the only games with dynamic content and thus i am fairly certain this is the true origin. Most MMORPG's to date still have identical gameplay mechanics to MUDs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.2.117.153 (talk) 09:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Nerf brand of toys, which probably includes a large number of assault rifles, is certainly much older than 1992.  Your game of highly questionable significance clearly got the name of the item from the toy manufacturer, so your point is irrelevant; the name still ultimately comes from Nerf brand toys.  Even if you had proof, which seems very unlikely, I would still oppose adding anything about Dark Castle MUD to this article.  70.245.237.177 (talk) 18:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed. I'd go so far as to suggest that this explanation was simply made up. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  'is certainly much older than 1992'.. Well, america existed before certain explorers discovered it. Perhaps we shouldn't include the names and dates about them either? Not that I really care all that much about history. And as for 'simply made up', you want proof? I was an eye witness, I'm living proof. Disprove me if you think you know it all.96.2.117.153 (talk) 09:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  "...disprove..." - no, that isn't needful.  One must substantiate one's facts in order to add content.  This is one of the reasons I am very concerned about the sheer bulk of web/gaming jargon/slang that is being dumped into Wikipedia.  Once the article arrives, replete with error, it is very difficult to fix... reliable sources for online slang are scarce.  Thus, despite the "take your marbles and go home" cutesyness, my reasoning in arguing that these simply don't belong in a general purpose encyclopedai.   I can't really visualize a "nerf" article in an Encyclopedia Britannica.  On the "I was there" thing... while I am sympathetic... original research is Not A Good Thing in Wikipedia.  Idea: write your recollections up and see if you can interest one or more of the more reputable web sites to investigate/publish about the history.  It would please me to find some useful citations for this article, even if the overly rude Thumperward is convinced that the term existed before 1992 (but of course Thumperward can't or won't produce sources... but insists that they "must" exist).  sinneed (talk) 14:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: This link died right after I added it, but now it is back.  The link in the text is to the cached version, so this is a note explaining why. Protonk (talk) 17:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: #Rubicite Breastplace Priced to Sell, a whitepaper written by tim burke (not the baseball player), a games researcher.  Talks about nerfs coming down the pike and how they influence player actions.
#Terranova posts Terra Nova (blog) is a games researcher group blog on the subject of virtual worlds.  The blog itself is not RS, of course, but the individual authors are (double check to see, of course)
#Raph Koster's website A dicdef, but Ralph Koster Raph Koster (helped make Star Wars Galaxies) does a lot of work in the field of virtual worlds.
# Owned: Finding a Place for Virtual World Property Rights in the Michigan State Law Review defines and explains "nerfed" in the contest of property rights.  
#Designing Virtual Worlds, page 305.
#Julian Dibbell talks about it in his book, Play Money
#In the New York Times talking about player protests after a nerf in AO.
Presented (Thank You!) by Protonk (talk)
Over on the German version of this page, these additional sources are listed:
# Donna Gibbs / Kerri-Lee Krause: Cyberlines 2.0: Languages and Cultures of the Internet. James Nicholas, Albert Park (Austr.) 2006, , S. 180
# Jessica Mulligan / Bridgette Patrovsky: Developing Online Games: An Insider's Guide. New Riders, Indianapolis (Ind.) 2003, , S. 280-281: "Bug-Fixing versus Nerfing"
Editors who want to contribute may find this list useful.  But even if not, I wanted to preserve the sources in an easy-to-find spot.
The full deletion discussion is archived (I have no idea for how long) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nerf_(computer_gaming)_(2nd_nomination)
sinneed (talk) 00:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources identified in the AFD & rescue processes. 

message: In addition: The term nerf does not apply to corrections made by simple clerical error. For instance 2 new weapons are put into the game. One is a 15th level quest reward and the second is a 30th level quest reward. Upon database entry the transcriber enters the 15th level weapon with the same DPS (damage per second) as the 30th level weapon. An obviuos mistake that is not caught until the weapons have gone live. The developers are made aware of this issue and correct it. This is not a nerf.
1st - this is a classic example of a nerf.
2nd - you'll need a wp:rs to add that.  Yes, lots of stuff here with no source, but just because wp:other stuff exists doesn't mean it is good stuff.  Please dive in and source madly. :)  It is a real challenge with these Internet jargon terms.  I have argued that they don't belong in Wikipedia because they are very difficult to source.  I am in a small minority and the consensus is to leave them in.
3rd - The lead in rests on the rest of the article... it leads in to it.  If you can find sources to add the content you appear to feel strongly about, please wp:be bold and add it to the body.  Perhaps a section called "What is and what is not a nerf".  Then, once it is in and sourced, perhaps it will merit a mention in the lead in (and you can always jsut wp:be bold and add it... but without source it won't stay...and if it is too much for the lead-in it won't stay).  But I am dubious.
Most nerfs are just this sort.  Someone makes a simple error.  It has minor or profound effects that are found only once the change is live.  The change is reversed, and someone objects... usually multiple someones object... to the nerf.sinneed (talk) 14:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is totally pointless anyway. You were right to remove it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well sir or madam, I disagree strongly.  It was not pointless.  It was, however, not encyclopedic, which is what I care about.  Even vandals and editors who name other's work "pointless" have a point.sinneed (talk) 05:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably "sir", and the section was...without much merit.  To say that "nerfs aren't corrections to obvious errors" is both OR and wrong.  A combination like that hardly improves an article. Protonk (talk) 05:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, clearly I agree about the value of the edit as it was created, thus I cut it and it landed on the online equivalent of the cutting room floor.  On the "sir" thing... mmmm, here we are whatever we say we are, within the rules of Wikipedia.  *shrug*sinneed (talk) 06:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ..:)  True.  But chris is probably chris. Protonk (talk) 06:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Offtopicwarning! One of my favorite nerfs wasn't a nerf at all.  Someone changed the lighting in a dungeon.  All the lights in the cities went out.  We jokingly accused them of nerfing light... there was so much squalling about nerfs at the time that our claim was no less reasonable than some of the others.sinneed (talk) 06:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One of my favorites actually was an 'error' on the part of the game makers.  The mosscovered twig was nerfed from being a "mainhand/offhand" weapon to "offand only" because the speed was just absurdly fast (even though the damage per hit wasn't that high).  They never thought about it and people ran around doing some absurd DPS (it wasn't called DPS then, but I forget what) until Verant noticed and changed it. Protonk (talk) 06:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  nerfs and what they mean in the world 

message: The claim that the name was first used in Ultima Online was not properly sourced (and the idea that this was actually the first use is ludicrous).  The first reference says that its first use in online games was on Ultima Online, not that its first use whatsoever was in Ultima Online.  The New York Times reference is only a reference for the origin of the word, not for its first use.  Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You got a bit too extravagant with the editorial hatchet.  The sources speak to the usage.  They can stay and are good sources.  I agree with some of the content cut, and will cut it to the talk page.sinneed (talk) 17:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see, you restored them.  Sorry, was looking at the changes in order. I am good with it, but your title is now misleading. :)sinneed (talk) 17:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad sources 

message: ... to Nerf (Video gaming) - an editor argues that the term "video gaming" is broader than computer gaming.
As the meaning of computer gaming has slowly come to mean desktop computer, rather than computer-in-general, this argument may have merit.  However, computer gaming includes computer gaming for the blind (rare), and all other computer-based games, whether PC, Mac, mainframe, pager, handheld.
I oppose this move, somewhat weakly. - Sinneed 14:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move 

message: deteriorate/deterioration, debuff, worsening, weakening, impairment/impair/impairing... 124.106.142.94 (talk) 04:30, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is a synonym of Nerf? 

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thread_title:  External links modified