Talk:Dog/Archive 3

message: DOGS COME FROM EARLY FORMS Wolfs.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffg1011 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't read as far as the first line of the article, then? -- Ian Dalziel 05:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog Descent 

message: The section on dog communication is longer than the Main Article it links to. What is there is mostly cc'ed. If there are no objections I will move the content to that article and leave a summary here. Robogun 01:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In relation to this, I've gone ahead and removed everything in that section except for the main article link. I don't think it's something that needs a consensus, but please do voice objection if you have them. Tockeg 22:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog Communication 

message: I didn't see ANYTHING in the article mentioning how dogs use scent to mark territory. 71.132.232.118 08:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yeah I had a quick scan and can't seem to find anything either. Something to add maybe... Think outside the box 12:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using Scent to mark territory 

message: I am doing a science experiment about whether most dogs prefer to use their left paw instead of their right to complete everyday tasks for school.I also have to write a research report.I could not find one article about dogs brains or their functions.Consider adding this kind of article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.83.166.28 (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "...whether most dogs prefer to use their left paw instead of their right to complete everyday tasks for school." lol.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.5.225.172 (talk) 19:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  articles needed 

message: Why do pugs stick there tongues out all the time?
:This isn't a classroom or a blog about dogs, but see http://www.doctordog.com/drdognewsletter/tongue.html, http://www.springerlink.com/content/n3u34u4220384846/, etc.
Why do dogs lick their anus?
That is the question.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.28.226.130 (talk) 16:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dogs 

message: For dogs to become ill when eating chocoalte they have to eat at least their weight in chocolate.  *NOTE:  This is an untrue and dangerous statement. Dogs can become ill and die from even a small amount of chocolate depending on how dark a chocolate it is, and on the dog's age and state of health. 
:Actually, according to the article on theobromine poisoning (the active ingredient in chocolate poisoning in dogs and cats), about 10 oz of dark chocolate would kill a medium-sized dog of about 30-35 lbs.
Regarding the health of vegetarian dogs, I found a very appropriate example to back up the information. Please consider adding, after the 6th sentence (or wherever you see fit), the following sentence and citation:
In 2002 it was revealed that Britain's oldest living dog (age 27) ate an exclusively vegan diet typically consisting of "rice, lentils and organic vegetables"
("Vegetable-Eating Dog Lives to Ripe Old Age of 27" Canine Nation. Published: 2002-Sep-18 http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209/articles/020918a.htm)   *NOTE:   Although this claims to be a news story, the The only sources for this seem to be vegan home pages and people's blogs. It would only be worth including if a reliable and verifiable source could be provided. 
Joseph 72.94.198.129 01:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "It often surprises pet owners to discover that for animals, chocolate is poisonous in sufficient dosages. Specifically it is the drugs in chocolate, theobromine and caffeine (of the drug class methylxanthines), that are toxic to pets. Only a moderate amount needs to be eaten by an animal, typically a dog, in order to be poisonous (approx. 1/2 oz. of baking chocolate per pound of body weight and less in some animals)." source:  -- Boracay Bill 01:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diet 

message: The version of evolution/ development of dog species and varieties contained in the "dog" article is factually incorrect. It is based on the earlier "Science" article that proposed multiple origins from wolves. That is now discredited by the same authors in their more recent "Science" article, as summarized in the version contained in the "origin of the domestic dog" article, which should be used instead of that currently in the "dog" article. OccDoc 23:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need to fix origin of the domestic dog

message: I want to explain why I reverted the edit about corn and wheat, since the editor is concerned about why it was reverted before.  The first reason is that I don't think it's necessary to say that corn and wheat aren't inherently toxic - I don't think that there is anyone confused by that.  Second, I wouldn't consider Petyourdog to be a reliable source.  Third, the website seems to suggest that feeding your dog food containing corn or wheat gluten is still a bad idea, so it doesn't support what the editor added. -Joelmills 16:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corn and wheat 

message: Anyone object to replacing the caption on the photo in the Dog Laughter section?  It is not very good at the moment.
66.19.242.87 10:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed it.  Any suggestions on a better caption? -Joelmills 00:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: DOG LAUGHTER

message: I need to know how long dogs usually live.
66.19.242.87 10:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That varies dramatically by breed, as some have much shorter lives than others. You'd probably best consult the page of the specific breed for the average life-span of that specific breed. John Carter 16:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I looked at Dog#Lifespan_and_old_age, which led me to Aging in dogs#Life_expectancy_by_breed. -- Boracay Bill 03:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dog Death

message: Intelligence section could benefit from some scientific and anecdotal examples. One very important and unique characteristic of Canis is its ability to process numbers. Please add that in Aug 2002 researchers determined that dogs have the innate ability to count, an ability which had hitherto been observed only in primates (see article published in New Scientist "Secret lives of dogs" 2002-Aug-03 http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17523542.800-secret-lives-of-dogs.html). To back up this theoretical discovery, it would be nice to reference last month's news report of a dog in China who displays the ability to count, add, subtract, multiply and divide numbers up to 10 (see Canine Nation "Mutt does math" 2007-Apr-27 http://dogsinthenews.com/stories/070427a.php)
71.185.67.169 14:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intelligence

message: The present section has quite a marked pro-neutering bias. This should be corrected. The article Neutering gives a much more neutral view, which should also be adopted in this article.
Also, the phrase "the less developed countries of Europe" is POV, and insulting at that. Are the Scandinavic countries (some of which prohibit the procedure without a proper medical indication) to be considered less developed? What about Germany, Switzerland, the Benelux, France, Italy, Spain? The procedure is considerably less common in Europe than in North America (no argument about that), but this must not be converted into some pseudo-argument about developmental stages.
--130.92.9.58 11:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reworked it a little.  Let me know what you think. --Joelmills 16:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considerably better - thanks. I'll have to find some sources about the frequency in different countries. In my experience and perception though, there is no European country that has as high frequencies of s/n dogs as North America has. --130.92.9.56 16:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV in Spaying/Neutering Section 

message: I think that there needs to be a section about dog grooming within this article.  I also think it's important to update the human companionship section to include the new trends: dog clothes, dog haircare and beauty products, etc.  It seems that these things are becoming as important as diet to pet owners.  Should this be a separate article? 
LLRap 19:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog Grooming and Companionship 

message: I'm not sure how a picture of a Newfoundland dressed up in baby clothes is a proper illustration of working dogs. It's not even a good photograph, much less an illustrative one. Is there not a better illustration available? This is disrespectful to a magnificent breed.
JoKing 14:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Here are some options from Commons...
Image:Labrador Retriever assistance dog.jpg|A labrador Retriever performing assistance dog duties
Image:Finsk politihund.jpg|A Finnish police dog
VanTucky 21:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest replacing picture under Working Dogs 

message: I just added a few fact tags to the recent addition to the spay neuter section.  I don't doubt (and even strongly suspect) that most of those things are true to one degree or another, but statements like there is mounting evidence and now being attributed really need citations to back them up.  If this evidence exists, then it should be easy to give a reference to it.  I did add a reference for the presence of estrogens in dog food that may be high enough to have a biological effect, but I removed the statement:
It is the total estrogen load that contributes to the estrogen-related disorders of mammary cancer and pyometra and spaying simply reduces that overall load.
because that seems to infer that the dietary estrogens contribute significantly to the development of mammary cancer and pyometra, evidence for which I searched Pubmed and came up with nothing.  I also removed the dietary advice, and the phrase perpetual puppy syndrome, because the only place I could find that phrase related to neutering was the contributor's own website.  --Joelmills 03:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent changes to spay/neuter section

message: I've replaced facfailed, oldpeerreview and GA templates with single  template containing all information those previous templates had. But I was unable to find when was this article promoted to Good Article status or the revision id for the PR and FAC versions. Shinhan 12:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ArticleHistory 

message: With respect to the retention of juvenile traits, I disagree with the statement, "This is true of many domesticated animals, including humans themselves, who have many characteristics similar to young bonobos."  First, humans are not domesticated animals, as they have not undergone artificial selection by themselves or any other being (in which case "including" would need to be replaced by "and".  Second, the contention that similarities between human traits and those of juvenile bonobos are linked in this way, rather than being purely coincidental, seems highly speculative (and unreferenced).  I would suggest omitting this sentence altogether.
Sfbergo 07:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Domestication does not require artificial selection nor even human intent, so humans could have, (and many argue, did) domesticate themselves. Speciate 01:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  18.1 Neoteny in the rapid evolution of diverse dog breeds 

message: Experimental evidence suggests that dogs are able to infer the mental states of other dogs and of humans, may thus be aware others have thoughts and mental states.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/03/AR2007060300960.html
--Calypsoparakeet 01:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dogs may infer others' mental states 

message: :Laughter might not be confined or unique to humans, despite Aristotle's observation that "only the human animal laughs". The differences between chimpanzee and human laughter may be the result of adaptations that have evolved to enable human speech. However, some behavioral psychologists argue that self-awareness of one's situation, or the ability to identify with somebody else's predicament, are prerequisites for laughter, so animals are not really laughing in the same way that humans do.
The above section has nothing directly to do with dogs and there should probably be moved to a seperate article e.g. on animal behaviour. Then perhaps a single line mentioning that there's debate whether laughter in animals is comparable to human laughter. Nil Einne 15:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laughter in animals 

message: The sentence "Genetic research has identified 14 ancient dog breeds, with the oldest being the Chow Chow, Shar Pei, Akita Inu, Shiba Inu and Basenji." is just absurd. These are not the oldest breeds known. None of them resemble the wolf in the slightest. My reaction to this sentence is not from anything I've studied or heard from any knowledgeable person-- it's just a matter of logic. As breeds are spun off of the original, the earliest must resemble the original. These Chinese breeds are about as far from wolves as you can get... I hope someone with real knowledge can intervene here. JDG 14:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the oldest dog breed would closely resemble the wolf, but that oldest dog breed probably doesn't exist anymore.  The reason those breeds mentioned in the article are considered the most ancient is because their DNA most closely resembles the DNA of a wolf.  Their morphological characteristics vary widely, but genetically they more closely resemble the wolf than other breeds.  Futhermore, the greater diversity of East Asian breeds supports the origination of the dog in that area.  To quote the article used as a source, , "these data indicate that the haplotypes of clade A in the western part of the world originate from the introduction of a subset of East Asian types, from which the types unique to West have later developed."  --Joelmills 16:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, you make good points, but I wonder if other archeaobiologists differ from your group. It is unusual for breeds to disappear in the way you describe. Usually in the course of the artificial selection process that we call "domestication" and "breeding", milestone breeds (or, in the plant world, strains and cultivars) are carefully preserved while experimentation proceeds with a group of animals or seeds put aside for that purpose. But for dogs in East Asia we are to accept that many, perhaps as many as a dozen, intermediate breeds were allowed to vanish until we reach the time of the Chow Chow, Shar Pei, etc., and then, starting from that point, breeds were preserved. It's possible, but seems a strain... I'll try to find if there's any professional controversy on this. Thx for your input, Joel. JDG 21:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One more thing I'll mention is that it is possible that the earlier, wolf-like breeds may have retained other wolf-like qualities such as a lack of trainability.  In changing this, people may have also changed their appearance (perhaps in their minds linking appearance with personality).  And it was 15,000 years ago, so who knows if the people were thinking that much about conservation of their efforts.  Incidentally, there are other extinct dog breeds, including some like the Molossus that were the basis of many other popular breeds.  It is an interesting question, and on article on ancient dog breeds would be great if we can find any good sources for it.  Oh, there is an article on that, although it's not really what I had in mind.  --Joelmills 21:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well-- after looking for 5 minutes, I see that the question "Where and when was the dog first domesticated?" is still very much an open question among geneticists and others. A 2005 paper in Molecular Biology and Evolution (Mol Biol Evol. 2005 Dec;22(12):2541-51. Epub 2005 Aug 24.) titled Mitochondrial DNA from Prehistoric Canids Highlights Relationships Between Dogs and South-East European Wolves, by Fabio Verginelli, et. al., states "Phylogenetic investigations highlighted relationships between the ancient sequences and geographically widespread extant dog matrilines and between the ancient sequences and extant wolf matrilines of mainly East European origin. The results provide a-DNA (ancient DNA--JDG) support for the involvement of European wolves in the origins of the three major dog clades. Genetic data also suggest multiple independent domestication events."... I don't know if the authors are denying a very ancient domestication event in East Asia, but they are certainly postulating multiple independent events and denying the conclusions of the paper you quote (they reference that paper and comment "Scenarios provided by genetic studies range from multiple dog-founding events to a single origin in East Asia."). So, to peg the most ancient breeds alive today, we would need to know which of these events was the oldest and then see which are the oldest extant breeds from that line, if possible...We obviously need to take a fresh look at all this and overhaul Origin of the domestic dog. JDG 22:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absurd sentence 

message: I recently did some extensive cleanup of the images in this article. Many of the previous images had little or nothing to do with the adjacent subject-matter, were quite poor photographically, or were placed in an odd or cumbersome way. Feel free to drop me line if you have any ideas or objections to the work I've done. VanTucky (talk) 22:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image work 

message: This is just a suggestion and I would like to have some opinions.  Some people use Wikipedia to find out information.  There are also other people who visit this website to find free-licensed photos that cannot be as easily found on Flickr and a C.C. search.  For example, I recently visit an educational website that said they had found all of their photos used on Wikipedia.  So before we remove any more images from this page, can we consider starting a photo gallery at the bottom of the page for the type of people simply looking for a dog image?  
And even if we didn't want to do that, we could start a new Wikipedia page (dog photos, for example) and link to it at the bottom of this page for that type of people. --EvanS (talk) 12:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is exactly what the Dogs Category on Wikimedia Commons already does. It contains hundreds if not thousands of public domain photographs of dogs.  There already is a link to it in the external links section.--Coaster1983 14:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A gallery should exist in an article for a very specific informative purpose and must have a clear scope. A large and indiscriminate gallery of dogs that is there just to provide free images is inappropriate, as Wikipedia is not an image gallery. As Coaster has pointed out, Wikimedia Commons would be happy to have any free images you want to upload. VanTucky (talk) 20:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for Images 

message: It seems odd to me that pictures of mixed-breeds get edited out immediately from this page. I would suggest you put the picture of the mixed breed back in.  It seems there is a bias towards purebreds here. Mister Gallagher 21:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you need to work harder to assume good faith. You're correct that there are more pure-breds here (the image of the dogs mushing is of a mixed-bred team), but I removed the image in question because it is overused. Using a single image in five different articles when there many many other examples of the subject in question is inappropriate. I'll find a different mixed-breed image. VanTucky (talk) 23:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I've added two mixed-breed images. VanTucky (talk) 00:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias towards purebreds 

message: I just wanted to add somethings to it like: in "hadith" is "one man was eating his food and by eating each bite he gave one to a dog az well prophit mohammad saied that God forgave all his sins for this act" and also hitting and bothering animal is strongly prohibited in Islam. Also here is some interesting things;
Unlike other dogs, salukis are not viewed as being "unclean" by the Bedouin. 
While saluki coats come in a variety of colors, the grizzled pattern is the most common and affords the most opportunity for a dog to bear the "kiss of Allah" or a white diamond pattern on its forehead. 
In Arabic countries most dogs are referred to as kalb (meaning dog) but salukis are referred to as salukis; this is because of their royal background and their 'clean' living habits, and is also due to their value (capital and sentimental).
Saluki is an Persian(Iranian)/Egiptian Dog and A study published in the May 21, 2004 issue of Science confirmed the saluki's antiquity through DNA analysis, which identified it as one of the earliest breeds to diverge from wolves.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.242.5.168 (talk • contribs).
i think dogs are awesome!
:The Islam section could use some work, and lightening up. Steve Dufour 19:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and rewrote the section.  I knew almost nothing about the topic and just used the information found in Islam and animals.  I hope that it is at least a little easier to read than before.  (And as I said, lighten up.  This article is about dogs, not the spiritual angst of modern Muslims. :-))  Blessings to all. Steve Dufour 02:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eslam and Dog

message: I have been working on this section.  The picture I added, of Saint Roch, was intended to illustrate the Christianity section.  Obviously, it would be hard to find a picture for the Islam section.  I see the picture has been moved.  On my screen (I am using a Mac with their browser) the picture now shows up next to the Islam section.  Could someone fix this?  Thanks. Steve Dufour 16:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture in religion section

message: We take our airedale terrier out on bike rides in the winter and spring ( temperature 5-15 degrees centrigrade) she can run for and hour and a half without any sign of fatigue or difficulty. What is the evidence that most dogs will be slower than humans in a marathon? DJKG 10:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  sprint metabolism 

message: The organization of topics is scattershot.  (E.g., Why is 'Diet" under "Behavior"?) I suggest all the scattered sections having to do with origins, evolution, and breed development be grouped under a single section, all sections about behavior and intelligence be grouped, all sections about reproductions, neutering, and population control be grouped, etc.  Kelly Cassidy 14:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Overall, I agree with you.  The article still needs to be reorganized and condensed.  The reason that I moved the diet  subsection into the behavior section is that this is the way that FA carnivorous animal articles are laid out (see Bobcat for an example).Coaster1983 17:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization 

message: I've got a question. Whenever i take a flash photograph of my dog, his eyes always turn up green, instead of the usual red in humans. Why is that? --AnY FOUR! 03:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's because most dogs have a tapetum lucidum, a reflective surface that lays at the back of the eye behind the retina.  The tapetum is usually greenish-yellow, and that's what you see reflect the flash.  It's also why you can see dogs' and cats' eyes at night.  --Joelmills 03:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Green eyes? 

message: This is in the first paragraph of the Origins section:
Some research appears to show that dogs were domesticated from wolves as recently as 15,000 years ago,[2] or perhaps as early as 100,000 years ago based upon recent genetic, fossil and DNA evidence.[3]
The citation for the latter claim is just, "Vilà, C. et al. (1997)." Am I missing something or does the claim sound unlikely and the citation flimsy?--24.74.1.139 13:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I have gathered is that the lineage of dogs separated from that of other wolves about 100,000 years ago.  It is not known when dogs began to associate with humans. The first fossils of dogs that show signs of domestication are from about 15,000 years ago. Steve Dufour 03:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins: 100,000 years ago? 

message: I'm surprised that there is nothing about the dangerous dog breed debate or sheep worrying.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.179.158 (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be something about dog attacks and the problem of rabies, which still kills thousands of people in India and Africa. Steve Dufour 16:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog Aggression 

message: Image:Purebredblacklabrador.jpg|Purebredblacklabrador.jpg
Image:Ruskea labradorinnoutaja.JPG|Ruskea labradorinnoutaja.JPG
Image:Female labrador retriever.jpg|Female labrador retriever.jpg
Image:Black Labrador.JPG|Black Labrador.JPG
I propose having a new picture in the textbox. How about these Bobisbob 21:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There doesn't seem to be a reason that the current infobox image is unsuitable in the first place. The first two have dogs facing away from the camera, not so good. One is of a puppy, which isn't desirable when looking for an image to represent dogs in general. The last two are very poor photographically; fuzzy, poorly composed (i.e. too far away), and overexposed or dark. None of these are better either on a technical level or in content. I'm guessing the issue you mainly have with the current might be the person in the background. A sitting dog probably isn't quite as good, but I could live with switching to one of the images below, how bout you? VanTucky Talk 22:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New textbox pic 

message: I just wanted to add to the Dog Onomatopoeia table that the Polish dog onomatopoeia is 'Hau hau'. Unfortunately, I'm a new user and don't really know how to edit this page. SamaraNessa 10:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the contribution. I took care of it for you. Steve Dufour 16:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have amended the French one ("ouah ouah"/"wah wah" is more often used than "ouaf ouaf"/"waf waf") but it's semi-protected.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.148.118 (talk) 10:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I fixed the Indonesian entry Coaster1983 (talk) 05:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog Onomatopoeia 

message: I took out some of the section that discussed dog ancestry but seemed to be about a fringe theory and was uncited.  This is an interesting topic but a general encyclopedia article on dogs is not really the best place to carry on a debate about it. Thanks. Steve Dufour 16:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some wolf info trimmed

message: Hi,
Rather than jump in and put my pic in the article I thought I'd leave it here on the talk page to see if anyone thinks it's worth including... --Fir0002 07:16, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't particularly see a need for it. VanTucky talk 04:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't really show the leash, just the collar. --andreasegde 18:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: It looks like the dog sport section could be expanded on (based on the dog sport page contents). I'm new to this and didn't want to just start editing the article without first making note of it. How should I proceed?Angus77 (talk) 23:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog Sport