Talk:1949 Armistice Agreements

message: I removed the "demographic implications" section because it is propagandistic and inaccurate.  The circumstances of the refugees is stated falsely, and the part about Jordan is also false (in fact, Jordan gave citizenship to all the Palestinian residents of the West Bank or Jordan).  Something could be put back, but let's aim for some NPOV.
I also added links to the armistice agreement texts.
-- zero 13:20, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

message: Presently this article shows a heavy bias in the section Violations it does not show the Israeli violations or the resolutions that came out of them. Yet these were far more than the Jordanian, Syrian or Egyptian violations.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 13:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article shows heavy Bias 

message: I don't think it's POV to explain where the various percentages come from, but I certainly don't agree that one could handily take Transjordania/Jordan/Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan out of the equation. The Mandate did include Jordan + present day Israel and arguably at least also the Golan Heights, and nowhere did it stipulate that a Jewish homeland had to be limited to areas west of Jordan. The truth is that the area available to Jewish settlement shrunk with each year, in violation of the original mandate. --Leifern 23:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a question of the appropriate encyclopedic context for the article. The 1947 resolution allocated about 55% of Palestine to the Jewish state and Israel was eventually established on 78% of the territory of Palestine. These figures are not disputed and appear in many standard accounts. The Balfour Declaration, 1917 only promised a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine and not the British Mandate of Palestine, which didn't exist then. The Palestine Mandate of 1922 noted that "the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" and article 25 effectively exempted what became Transjordan from the provisions of the mandate. I think you could say something like "Israel was established on 18% of the land to which Zionists aspired", but then some, including Ben Gurion, aspired to more than Palestine and Transjordan and so the figure of 18% is still somewhat arbitrary. However, I don't think you could argue that Zionist aspirations are the appropriate encyclopedic context. I also don't see a good reason for excluding the standard 78% figure. --Ian Pitchford 14:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I think "Zionist aspirations" and the intentions attributed to Ben Gurion are perjorative, to say the least, and indicative of an anti-Zionist perspective. "Effectively exempted" is a weasel term, and "Palestine" had no firmer boundaries in 1917, 1922, or 1947 than it has now. The 78% number misleads a reader into thinking that Jews were involved in a land grab of "Palestine" at the expense of Arabs, which is surely one perspective; but another equally valid perspective is that of all the land the UK controlled in the original mandate, the vast majority - in terms of area - went to Arabs for their exclusive use. It is not as if Egypt or Jordan were anxious to delineate the boundaries of Palestine between 1949 and 1967.  --Leifern 14:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "Land of Israel" refers to a historical region, in Hebrew "Eretz Israel" - has nothing to do with aspirations. Your version is unmitigated propaganda. Zionist aspirations were to live in a Jewish homeland where they wouldn't be killed for being Jews. This was and obviously still is too much to ask. --Leifern 16:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At the 1937 World Zionist Congress Ben Gurion argued for the acceptance of partition as a step towards securing all the "Land of Israel" or "Greater Israel". That's my point. It's just arbitrary to express the percentage of the land held by Israel in 1949 as a percentage of the British Mandate of Palestine, but it's important as one of the ideological perspectives. The existing version is propaganda because it doesn't place the figures in any perspective at all. --Ian Pitchford 16:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly agree that the figures need to be put into perspective, and this should possibly be a separate paragraph. It is false to lead a reader to the impression that Israel grabbed most of the available land, while it is certainly true that Israel ended up with more land than the partition plan envisioned. --Leifern 16:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It's possible to cover all of this in relatively few words without doing injustice to either/any perspective. --Ian Pitchford 17:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In this light, why not cite both numbers counting/excluding Transjordan? ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that would be best as it wouldn't elevate the perspective of one community above the other. --Ian Pitchford 09:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  I agree with Humus Sapiens (to put both numbers in), as they are equally relevent. :-) 172.138.114.72 15:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

text: This matter is too complex to be treated here in depth.   I once tried to just entirely cut it out of this not directly related article, but it has slowly crept back in.  It is treated in depth in the articles British Mandate of Palestine, Transjordan and particularly Talk:British Mandate of Palestine see about a year ago.  Also see some comments above on this page.  There are at least 4-5 dates that could be considered the creation of Transjordan: Abdullah's autumn 1920 armed arrival there, the march 1921 Cairo conference that added Article 25 to the draft mandate  and the  Jerusalem Churchill-Abdullah talks, the 1922 League of Nations conferral of the mandate on Britain after the Churchill White Paper, the 1923 'independence' of Transjordan and  the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, which is what finally clearly removed the area from Turkish sovereignty.  That is why I left it at "early 20's" in order to not drive the casual reader insane and to not pick any one of these dates.  Because of these complexities one should not use the words "original mandate" because according to the best sources, the original mandate, what Herbert Samuel ruled under the terms of the draft mandate according to his superiors' orders after his arrival in July 1920 did not include Transjordan.  Nor did even what the Weizmann and other Zionists requested at Versailles and elsewhere include all of modern (Trans)jordan.   As I noted inline, this is a confusing matter, and so many, many sources, which usually are not particularly devoted to this matter or written by specialists on this period get it wrong.   I tried to write something about which everyone can agree and that includes both the big and little percentages. Cheers, John Z (talk) 20:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Percentages again 

message: During the negotiations on the island of Rhodes in January 1949, Ralph Bunche used a new method to defuse tension and arguments. He invited each of the delegates to adjourn to a nearby room and shoot pool with him. His best competitor in these matches was Moshe Dyan, smoke curling up from both their cigarettes. 
After a treaty was signed and sealed, Ralph Bunche walked about the room, handing gift wrapped packages to the delegates. Moshe Dyan recalled unwrapping a ceramic plate, made by a local Rhodes pottery and bearing decoration and text to commemorate their treaty. Moshe Dyan realized that these plates had to have been ordered in advance of agreement. "Suppose we had not reached agreement, Ralph?"  "I'd have busted them on your %@#&*@ heads," Bunche answered.  
    
This material came from an interview Ralph Bunche gave to the author of a book about the Nobel Peace Prize, plus Moshe Dyan's memoirs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.29.213 (talk) 16:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting Trivia

message: Exchange of territory: According to Article 6 Israel received a territory in the area known as Wadi Ara and the Little Triangle in exchange for territory in the southern hills of Hebron.[7] In March 1949 as the Iraqi forces withdrew from Palestine and handed over their positions to the smaller Jordanian legion, 3 Israeli brigades manoeuvred into threatening positions in Operation Shin-Tav-Shin in a form of coercive diplomacy. The operation allowed Israel to renegotiate the cease fire line in the Wadi Ara area of the Northern West Bank in a secret agreement reached on 23 March 1949 and incorporated into the General Armistice Agreement. The green line was then redrawn in blue ink on the southern map to give the the impression that a movement into green line had been made.[8] The events that led to a change in the Green line was an exchange of fertile land in the Bethlehem area to Israeli control and the village of Wadi Fukin being given to Jordanian control. On 15 July when the Israeli Army expelled the population of Wadi Fukin after the village had been transferred to the Israeli-occupied area under the terms of the Armistice Agreement concluded between Israel and the Jordan Kingdom The Mixed Armistice Commission decided on 31 August, by a majority vote, that Israel had violated the Armistice Agreement by expelling villagers across the demarcation line and decided that the villagers should be allowed to return to their homes. However, when the villagers returned to Wadi Fukin under the supervision of the United Nations observers on September 6, they found most of their houses destroyed and were again compelled by the Israeli Army to return to Jordanian controled territory. The United Nations Chairman of the Mixed Commission, Colonel Garrison B. Coverdale (US), pressed for a solution of this issue to be found in the Mixed Armistice Commission, in an amicable and UN spirit. After some hesitation, this procedure was accepted and finally an agreement was reached whereby the Armistice line was changed to give back Wadi Fukin to the Jordanian authority who, in turn, agreed to transfer some uninhabited, but fertile territory south of Bethlehem to the Israelis.[9]
...Please use real events and not the myths...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 05:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Exchange of territory Myth

message: Talknic, unfortunately your habit of "touching" talk-page sections by adding semi-meaningless perfunctory pro forma comments to them for the sole and exclusive purpose of keeping them from being moved off into the archives is really not productive or constructive.  In fact, you've been warned about this habit of yours before, and it can seem quite distinctly annoying to other people.  I have half a mind to move this whole section directly to the archives, regardless of whether you've "touched" it or not... AnonMoos (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: <big>TALKNIC, STOP THIS "TOUCHING"!</big>

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://ia301304.us.archive.org/3/items/violenttrucearab006617mbp/violenttrucearab006617mbp.pdf/
** In 1949 Armistice Agreements on 2011-05-25 03:24:07, Socket Error: 'getaddrinfo failed'
** In 1949 Armistice Agreements on 2011-06-04 17:12:15, Socket Error: 'getaddrinfo failed'
--JeffGBot (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 9 

message: It helps to know what you're looking for.
I've replaced a heap of dead links with working links to the documents that were originally cited.
I realize these are all WP:PRIMARY and should be replaced with secondary sources or re-worded per WP:PRIMARY. 
I've done this as a temporary measure so editors can find the relevant text within the primary docs to search for secondary sources and or reshape the content accordingly ... talknic (talk) 16:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replaced dead links to the WP:PRIMARY documents that were originally cited.  

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on 1949 Armistice Agreements. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140525024736/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9EC4A332E2FF9A128525643D007702E6 to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9EC4A332E2FF9A128525643D007702E6
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110726121056/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/E845CA0B92BE4E3485256442007901CC to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/E845CA0B92BE4E3485256442007901CC
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on 1949 Armistice Agreements. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/71260B776D62FA6E852564420059C4FE
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110514030830/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F03D55E48F77AB698525643B00608D34 to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F03D55E48F77AB698525643B00608D34
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151124044947/http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/MFADocuments/Yearbook1/Pages/Israel-Syria%20Armistice%20Agreement.aspx to http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/mfadocuments/yearbook1/pages/israel-syria%20armistice%20agreement.aspx
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120601213903/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/017EEFB458011C9D05256722005E5499 to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/017EEFB458011C9D05256722005E5499
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on 1949 Armistice Agreements. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120609143644/http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85255a0a0010ae82852555340060479d/7b5942522358001885256a76006377eb to http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85255a0a0010ae82852555340060479d/7b5942522358001885256a76006377eb
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080107091244/http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/3dd863c66da0823b052564e3004b10ea%21OpenDocument to http://domino.un.org/unispal.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/3dd863c66da0823b052564e3004b10ea%21OpenDocument
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040604202236/http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/Web%20Search%20Simple2%21OpenForm to http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/Web%20Search%20Simple2%21OpenForm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:30, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please change the entry in the "Further Reading" section from this:
Ben-Dror, Elad The Mediator: Ralph Bunche and the Arab-Israeli Conflict 1947-1949 (Ben Gurion Institute, 2012)
to this:
*
The existing entry is for the Hebrew version of the book, which was published in 2012, but it should be for the English version, which was published in 2016. Also, the ISBN no. is missing. Phillipatracy (talk) 11:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 14:33, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 January 2018