Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 70

message: There is a silly debate on the talk page of "TNA iMPACT!", with one editor saying that TV shows/movies/video games/etc. shouldn't have stuff like exclamation points and question marks in their titles (so he would want "Who Wants to Be a Millionare?" moved to "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" for example). Not only do I think he's wrong, but think it would affect a lot of articles. Thoughts? TJ Spyke 07:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Question marks shouldn't be used due to technical restrictions. And if the symbol is part of the article name, it should be fine, as long as it's not for emphasis. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 07:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I have said before, although I believe I'm in the minority here, that the use of superfluous punctuation in names should be avoided. See also this excellent essay by Bill Walsh, copy editor for the Washington Post. In this case, it certainly seems that the exclamation point is used only for emphasis, and should go.--chris.lawson 07:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TV/Movie titles 

message: I think we should expand the section on he use of a colon beyond just "space usage." This would include when to use and when not to use a colon in lists, especially with verb complements. While reading through the various policies (which I'm sure have been proofread numerous times), I have come across several errors involving colon usage. I double-checked my corrections with my grammar textbook (yes, I own one) and I was correct. Then when I check WP:MoS, I noticed it mentions next to nothing regarding proper usage, so I am assuming this is the problem. Are there any comments or suggestions as to the way it should be worded?--Vox Rationis (Talk | contribs) 15:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not the Academie Francaise. Make corrections as appropriate. --Tysto 18:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammatical usage of a colon 

message: Sorry if this the wrong place for this, but I couldn't find somewhere better.
If an article refers to an actual book (the book is not a reference), does ISBN information need to be included? From Download This Song:
:The lyrics of the song are based on the book The Future of Music: Manifesto for the Digital Music Revolution (), by Dave Kusek and Gerd Leonhard.
Is this the proper way to handle book references? I've got a reference for this statement that would go at the end of the sentence, but would the book get its own footnote with ISBN info, etc.? Please advise, thanks! —Daniel Vandersluis(talk) 15:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not exactly sure, but a better place to find this would be at Wikipedia:Citing sources. That page has a lot more information on how to reference various works, and you might be able to ind the answer there.--Vox Rationis (Talk | contribs) 16:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, thanks, I'll take my question there. —Daniel Vandersluis(talk) 16:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inline book references 

message: I would like if it said something about adding excessive HTML for style reasons.  Like bolding text to make headings instead of using the correct sub-heading markup, putting  tags around math markup to make it look the right size in your own browser, etc.  Idiosyncratic markups that aren't carried between articles.  I just want it to say something like
: "in general, stuff like this is frowned upon.  If you'd like to see a difference in the way articles are formatted, pursue it at the software/site-wide CSS level instead, where it can benefit everyone at once".
Ideas? — Omegatron 16:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HTML markup 

message: I've noticed a tendency among some wikipedians to add "general interest" illustrations to articles, that is to say images of objects not refered to in the text. This [[
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gothic_Revival_architecture&oldid=113077320 version]] of the article on the Gothic Revival is a case in point. I would maintain that pictures without context don't have any explanatory value, and so there is a need for a policy on this subject. Namely: illustrations must illustrate the text and that generic images should be confined to commons categories or gallery setions. Twospoonfuls 15:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is harmed by these images? — Omegatron 15:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Meaning is harmed: pictures without context have no meaning. They ought to be explained by the text of the article. Twospoonfuls 15:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Illustrations

message: There is a discussion going on over here on whether an article should be at YUI (singer) or Yui (singer). Any input from additional people would be helpful. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Summary: Fan Wikipedians: "Her press releases always call her 'YUI'." Publishing-oriented Wikipedians: "It doesn't stand for anythig, so it gets treated like any other name." --Tysto 18:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More heads needed 

message: Hi. As someone in the southern hemisphere, I was wondering if there was any style guide to the use of northern hemisphere seasons for upcoming movie, game, etc release dates. I don't find it offensive, as such, but it seems rather biased that just because a majority of the "civilized" world is northern hemisphere based, that those seasons will be widely recognized as the seasons in question. WookMuff 11:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is. Jimp 00:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Thank you :) WookMuff 00:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seasons 

message: There is no mention of the use of exclamation points in the punctuation section! My feeling is that their use is not scholarly and they have no place in formal writing!  I would like to reference the relevant MoS section in my comments as justification to others when I remove them, but currently there is nothing to reference! (If my gratuitous use of exclamation points here hasn't motivated you to add them to the punctuation section, I don't know what will!) --67.188.0.96 09:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, as requested! –Noetica 09:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! --67.188.0.96 21:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Their use after exclamations is perfectly correct and scholarly ... but how often would you have exclamations in an encyclopædia?  Also, of course, if you're quoting text which contains one (whether correct or not), then keep it.  Otherwise, no, don't use them. Jimp 00:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Done! Also similar remark for brackets. −Woodstone 21:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exclamation points 

message: Wikipedia has no guidelines on protocols for writing cost or prices. I ask because over at the PS3 article, someone mentioned that in the price chart US price is pre-tax but all the European prices are post-VAT. Except the US conversions have the VAT stripped out. The whole thing is highly inconsistent. And Wikipedia doesn't seem to have any policy for writing prices or converting cost. If I'm asking the wrong place or there is a policy, let me know. Thanks. Chevinki 20:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is WP:$ but this doesn't really mention whether or not to include tax. Jimp 02:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm actually kinda surprised Wiki doesn't already have a policy in place or that it hasn't come up yet. It's a bit tricky because VAT inflates European prices but it's almost impossible to get around. Taxes in the US vary by state and there are certain workarounds (ordering online). I think all prices should be pre-tax for consistency but that's IMO. Chevinki 17:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Outside of trade catalogues, its virtually unheard of, to see prices quoted without tax, in the UK. Andy Mabbett 10:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed I think it's actually unlawful in the UK to quote prices to the general public which do not include VAT. -- Arwel (talk) 11:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The United States is a mess with regard to pricing because some states don't have sales tax and in other states it varies county by county (some counties levy sales taxes on top of statewide sales taxes).  That's why prices in the U.S. are traditionally quoted before tax and then shoppers are expected to do the math when comparing prices.  Invoices and receipts in the U.S. always show the subtotal before tax, then the sales tax, and then the final total.  If the merchant doesn't collect the sales tax, the merchant then becomes liable for the tax. Occasionally some retailers like Orchard Supply Hardware throw a sale by declaring a no sales tax day (in which the merchant voluntarily assumes the liability for the sales tax).  --Coolcaesar 22:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prices 

message: When a product is discontinued by the manufacturer, like the Nikon D50 camera, should the opening paragraph be changed from "The D50 is an entry-level digital single-lens reflex camera..." to "The D50 was an entry-level digital single-lens reflex camera..."?  There are probably hundreds of thousands of D50s that are still in existence and used daily.  Other camera articles like the Nikon F3 and Nikon F5 say "was".  I noticed automobiles like the Infiniti Q45 say "was", even though many are still on the road.  I have seen this argument come up in aircraft articles; the Cessna 150 hasn't been built since 1977, but it says "is" rather than "was", as does the B-17 Flying Fortress which hasn't been built since 1945.  However, the B-29 Superfortress (also last built in 1945) says "was".  I think we need to have an MoS entry discussing this. I looked, but could not find anything related to this, but perhaps I missed it.  --rogerd 04:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Was" makes it sound like it no longer exists. "The Dodo was a bird from..." vs "The bald eagle is ...". And if I have an 8 track player, although no longer made (to my knowledge) I can still say it is something. I would go with "is". -Indolences 20:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I would go with "is" as well, but it seems that some discontinued products are in the past tense, such as Power Mac G4 Cube. Strad 21:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I am hoping for is a consensus to actually codify this in the Manual of Style as a preferred way of referring to products that still exist but are no longer on the (new) market.  --rogerd 13:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it depends on use, and not production. The construction that seems most helpful to readers is: "The RPB 5000 was a rocket-powered bat suit manufactured by Acme from 1954 to 1957 for use in catching roadrunners and other fast-moving prey. It was discontinued in 1957 owing to a class-action lawsuit stemming from a number of high-speed mishaps." But alternatively, if it's still actively used: "The RPB 5000 is a rocket-powered bat suit manufactured by Acme from 1954 to 1957 and still in limited use today by the Royal Netherlands Air Force." --Tysto 20:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Products - past/present tense? 

message: It would be good if authors avoided the use of summer/spring/winter/fall to refer to periods of the year (as distinct from the climatic sense)
For example "In August 2006, there were widespread rumours of an election to be held in the fall..." (ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_general_election%2C_2007). There are two problems with this:
1. "Fall" is not used much outside North America - mostly people use "autumn"
2. More importantly, the seasons are reversed in the southern hemisphere - when it is winter in the northern hemisphere, it is summer in the southern hemisphere. Thus is someone says "The presidential election will be held in the fall of 2007..." I - as a southern hemisphere resident - think of the March-May period, not towards the end of the year. Using "late 2007" in this case would be much clearer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.170.90.2 (talk • contribs).
:Well, the example is interesting in the sense that it is located in North America. When it's an election for Quebec, Quebec's common speech may be used, such as using the word fall. As for the northern/southern hemisphere part, the time is given for the place where it takes place, instead of, for example, GMT. However, I see your point that maybe seasons should be avoided if possible. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As for seasons, this is covered at WP:DATE. I agree that if the season is not relevant, it's best to use hemisphere-neutral words. I don't see any problem with fall, for the same reasons Wirbelwind gave. It would be an interesting question though in an article that wasn't country-related. In this case fall/autumn is probably 90/10 in Canada and 0/100 in Australia. Do we invoke the "Use words common to all" rule to eliminate what is, in practice, the Canadian word? Then the Canadian word would essentially disappear from non-country-related articles. Joeldl 04:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say no; I think the "universally acceptable language" proposal was pretty thoroughly shot down. "Autumn" sounds distinctly odd in the United States. People know what it means, but it sounds like you're trying to make some sort of point. I think we stick with the current rules about national varieties of English: In articles specific to one culture, use its word-choice/spelling; otherwise go with the first non-stub version of the article and make it consistent within the article. There are nuances, of course, but that's the essence of the current approach, which works pretty well. --Trovatore 16:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I said this exact same thing, just a few pages up, and was given this handy link. WookMuff 10:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seasons (bis)