Talk:Narayana Guru

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thread_title: File:Narayana Guru.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I am planning to cut this article back massively unless some citations of reliable sources turn up soon. As things stand, the majority of it is hopelessly unencyclopedic. I'll hang off for another 2 or 3 weeks but after that, well, my editorial red pen will be taken to pretty much anything that is not cited. - Sitush (talk) 23:57, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing 

message: Throughout most of this article, Narayana is referred to as "Guru", which, if I understand correctly, is a title, rather than a name, and adds to the hagiographic tone of the article. Per WP:HONORIFIC, I think he should be called only by his surname, after the first mention. Would that be "Nārāyana"? (I ask only because I am not very familiar with Indian naming conventions.) More generally, the article strikes me as more reverential than encyclopedic. Using his name, rather than "Guru", will not fix that, but it seems like a good start. Peter Chastain (talk) 07:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name, title, NPOV 

message: Can someone explain why Guru- The Social Philosopher of Kerala this is a reliable source? I note that the home page does not even function correctly, there is no indication of authority and the dedicated nature of the website concerns me - hagiographic etc. - Sitush (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We now have a heap of citations that are clearly based on a dependent (rather than independent) source. This needs to change and it needs to changes pronto, otherwise the cites are likely to be deleted. - Sitush (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious source 

message: You reverted to your revision on Narayana Guru undoing ~6 editors and ~20 edits done over ~30 days. I see that you have re-inserted one of the two content addition I had done. Is this content and reference (from academic book published by Oxford Univ. Press) not to be retained? Particularly when that article is in need of reliable sources! Thanks. --AmritasyaPutra✍ 14:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a way to do it without breaching WP:NPOV then of course it can be retained. I was just about to try to find a copy of the book. What you cannot do is state as fact something that is disputed by reliable sources, and that is what had been done. - Sitush (talk) 14:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and you need to abide by WP:CITEVAR also. - Sitush (talk) 14:25, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  That book is secondary reliable source from academic publication. Can you please provide the reliable source it contradicts? I will abide by WP:CITEVAR. Thanks. --AmritasyaPutra✍ 18:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  This discussion belongs in the thread I opened at the article talk page. As far as d.o.b. is concerned, there is already a reliable source that contradicts it, specifically pointing out that the suggested dates vary. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The edit made no changes to d.o.b. I will respond to the other concern raised on the talk page. Regards. --AmritasyaPutra✍ 00:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

text: I cannot see the source, either, so it may be that we'll need a quotation if the significance can be proven at all. - Sitush (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  It conveys a simple/ordinary peasant. If 'middle' is not clear we may simply write "a peasant". It does not say that being the son of peasant influences his following of Vedanta and his decision to teach, that itself is an inference. In fact, with that edit I deleted the dubious "He appears in turn to have" clause that was not sourced inline, that has been put back when this content addition was reverted. Do you want me to provide a quotation (the content and reference stands deleted as of now)? It is referenced to a secondary reliable source of Oxford University Press and it does not contradict any other reliable source like you said before. Regards. --AmritasyaPutra✍ 00:55, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will add the content without using the "middle" word as discussed here. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutraT 04:25, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:   --AmritasyaPutraT 04:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I missed these replies - got into stuff elsewhere. I'll take a look now. - Sitush (talk) 15:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I tweaked it a bit and then looked to add an authorlink to the citation, which is when I spotted Jean Drèze. That guy has no training in the subject matter at all, from what I can see. As such, he is not reliable for this material. - Sitush (talk) 15:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay, no problem about that, but it does come from a publication of good reputation, he is an exceptional scholar in his field and no blemishes as such. Isn't that sufficient enough for a simple non-contentious addition? I know you have been around longer and perhaps know it better too. The intention is not to "argue". --AmritasyaPutraT 17:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I am concerned about it because, even today, literacy is an concern in India. Although there certainly were some educated poor people, the idea of a peasant being educated in any meaningful sense back then seems remote. I'll have to check on this, though, as I know that the Brits did encourage at least some education for some people. Can you read Dutch? I'm wondering whether  might be able to help with a translation, just to make sure of the term that Drèze is using. - Sitush (talk) 17:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

text: *Thanks, . There are, as so often, lots of problems with the article but as far as the Dreze source goes, I can't see it at all and the citation had "lang=nl" in it. Looks like I may have wasted your time, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 20:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: *No apology necessary, Sitush. Good luck keeping Scotland--if you want it, your third-to-last colony. (I'm not counting Milton Keynes, of course.) Drmies (talk) 22:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:   , Jean Dreze and Amartya Sen are the editors. "Dutch" was a mistake, it is in English. The content I had added falls in Chapter 4 titled "On Kerala's Development Achievements" written by V K Ramachandran. --AmritasyaPutraT 01:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah, now we are getting somewhere. The citation should read . I'll add that now and try to track down stuff on/by Ramachandran. - Sitush (talk) 10:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:   thanks. --AmritasyaPutraT 12:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd phrasing 

message: I reverted here in part because a tourism website was introduced as a source. Such websites are not usually considered reliable for history and indeed they quite often take material from Wikipedia itself. - Sitush (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that the source is not just another tourism website, but the official government website. Kindly consider whether your content removal has actually left the article any better than it would have been without it. BudChrSch (talk) 18:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Official government websites, particularly those in India, are not good sources. Political interference in historical revisionism, for example, is common. - Sitush (talk) 17:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: True indeed. However, what is in question here is such information as (1)the given name of our subject, (2)the names of his parents, (3)the number of his siblings, and (4)the names of some people in his life, such as his uncle and his teacher. The content removal is justifiable if any other sources is in disagreement with regard to these. Other points like what our subject may have studied as a student may be disputed. Also, there is a disagreement among the sources regarding Narayana Guru's year of birth. As such, it is improper for the article to proclaim that he was born in 1854. BudChrSch (talk) 17:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says that there is uncertainty about his birth year. As for the rest, just find a reliable source: it is difficult to believe that only a government website carries that information, and it is highly suspect if that is the case because it would tend to suggest that they've grabbed info from earlier versions of this article (that is not uncommon with that particular site, by the way). - Sitush (talk) 17:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, agreed. I was wondering whether the biography by Moorkoth Kumaran would be considered a reliable source? BudChrSch (talk) 16:21, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing against using a source just because it is written in some non-English language, although see WP:NOENG for important info about how we handle them. That said, much has been written about Narayana Guru in English and we do generally seem to prefer English sources when they are available. I'd be wary of any biography that is effectively published in a hagiographic style, regardless of the language, and that appears to be likely in this specific case: Kumaran was no historian but he was a follower of Narayana Guru etc, which makes it pretty dodgy. - Sitush (talk) 16:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Which means what exactly? Is the book acceptable, or not? BudChrSch (talk) 15:01, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly do you want to use it for? - Sitush (talk) 09:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: To reinstate the aforementioned pieces of information.BudChrSch (talk) 13:41, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Who is the publisher? When? What is the ISBN? - Sitush (talk) 14:17, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

text: It should not surprise me that you are demonstrating yet more lack of clue. Take a look at my contribution history for 11 April, take a look at my general contribution history, and consider WP:DEADLINE. If you want to act like a petulant teenager, please do so somewhere else. - Sitush (talk) 08:15, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tourism websites as sources 

message: I have reverted this edit. I myself had made such edits on a number of pages recently, whereupon I was enlightened about the problem with WP:INDICSCRIPT by User:Redtigerxyz thus:
:"There was no binding consensus about removing Indic scripts on Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism articles. WP:INDICSCRIPT is WP:Local consensus of Wikiproject India. Wikiprojects Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc. were not consulted; also other countries/region like Nepal, Bengal, Bangladesh wikiprojects also need to be consulted. FA articles of both Hinduism and Jainism articles Anekantavada, Ganesha, Ahalya, Vithoba, Iravan use scripts and had them at the WP:FAC."BudChrSch (talk) 14:05, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't give a damn what Redtigerxyz says: everyone else has been applying it to this type of article. Now stop your edit warring, please. - Sitush (talk) 14:08, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep your issues out of here. No one cares if you like the rules or not. And, I don't edit-war, for I have better things to do.BudChrSch (talk) 14:31, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think those ancient Hindu deities etc are a different ball-game. I've never seen anyone remove scripts from those, although I'm not terribly familiar with them. - Sitush (talk) 14:54, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "A different ball-game," you say? Now that's some good argument. This inconsistency in applying a policy is ridiculous. BudChrSch (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a policy. - Sitush (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Perfect. We've come full circle. BudChrSch (talk) 16:39, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:INDICSCRIPT 

message: QOUTE: 
Gurudevan, as he was known by his followers, led a reform movement in Kerala, rejected casteism and promoted new values of spiritual freedom and social equality.[1] END OF QUOTE
The article quality is quite bad, as is more or less the quality of most article connected to Kerala and even India. 
As to the claim that it was 'Gurudevan' who led a reform movement in Kerala, it is just nonsense. There was no Kerala during his time. North Malabar and South Malabar were quite unconnected to Travancore, and more connected to Madras Presidency. Even the language of Malabar, especially that of North Malabar, was not Malayalam at that time period in history. 
Even between North Malabar and South Malabar, social issues were different and quite apart from those in Travancore Kingdom. In Malabar, social reform spontaneously came with the English rule. In Travancore kingdom also, most of the social reforms can be attributed to the English pressure exerted from Madras, and due to the changes imposed by Colonel Munro during his brief Dewanship in Travancore. 
As to Narayana Guru, it is quite surprising that his name is not seen mentioned in either Travancore State Manual written by V. Nagam Aiya or in Native Life in Travancore written by Rev. Samuel Mateers. This does not mean that he was not involved in actions pointing towards social leadership. However, there is always the possibility that he was not acknowledged by a vast section of the society. Inside his own follower group, he would be a great personage. However outside the domain, he will literally be a nonentity. 
That he or his team did built a temple (Jagadhanadha Temple) in Tellicherry has a content of deceit. In that some of the cunning social leaders of the local Thiyya community tried this as a diversionary tactic to lead the Thiyya youngsters from following English systems, which they might have feared would have allowed them to develop beyond the control of their caste leaders. 
There is no doubt the Narayana Guru did have a following, mainly among the Ezhavas, and that he had some followers from other castes. However, that does not make him a leader of the Hindus or of any other castes. If such claims are made, they will be repudiated by others. Whether even the Shanars of South Travancore accepted him as their leader is not known or seen mentioned in the article. 
As to the claim that he has promoted 'social equality', how can that be when he more or less spoke Malayalam, which is literally full of inequalities, and pejoratives to followers and subordinates?  These are just empty claims with no basis. If at all any semblance of social equality was enforced in Malabar, it was by the English rule. 
The main article has the quality of such article as Nayanar, Gandhi etc. which are all mere fan versions, all with tall claims to exclusive rights to events, historical and social. All of doubtful quality. 
Apart from all this, on this Talk Page one busybody is seen dictating terms and sort of appointing himself or herself to self-appointed leadership, unilaterally. Who is this guy?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.29.46 (talk) 09:03, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  CORRECTION! 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I wonder how people misguiding this wonderful site
 Sreeretnan (talk) 18:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have merged your above three statements into one section - no need to start a new section for each statement when they refer to the same thing. As for your concern, well, this page is for discussion of improvements to the article but you are being so vague that no improvements can be made from the information you give. Please see WP:V and WP:RS. Oh, and note that (a) one cannot libel the dead; and (b) Wikipedia is not censored. - Sitush (talk) 06:08, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Narayanaguru 

message: Adding the link here for reference
www. Sreenarayana.in  Sreeretnan (talk) 07:50, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 07:56, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  sree Narayana Guru 

message: I would like to know whether anybody can identify the exact year of birth of Sree Narayana Guru by citing reliable sources.Adithyak1997 (talk) 17:00, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because reliable sources differ and we have a policy of neutrality. - Sitush (talk) 17:06, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would like to know whether any of the following sources can be considered as reliable:
a)https://missionldc.blogspot.com/2018/03/sree-narayana-guru.html
b)https://divyum.com/category/geography/kerala/kerala-renaissance-important-leaders/sree-narayana-guru/
c)http://www.realbharat.org/sree-narayana-guru-the-revolutionary-social-reformer-398/
d)https://books.google.co.in/books?id=p2JgDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT234&lpg=PT234&dq=20+august+1856+%22guru%22&source=bl&ots=4KV86WFKnl&sig=mJJIq6Vx7I3nDZAG8bGxNu_-8oA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjMqZzWzOrdAhVacCsKHdSiAC8Q6AEwB3oECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=20%20august%201856%20%22guru%22&f=false
e)http://www.snaofna.org/
f)https://www.thefamouspeople.com/indian-philosophers.php
If none of these sources can be considered as reliable, please do revert this edit done by me. Sorry for not including names for each of the link instead of their hyperlinks.Adithyak1997 (talk) 15:40, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

text: Almost entirely, No. And we do not need more sources anyway - we already have the evidence that the date is uncertain and nothing is going to change that: sources disagree and that is what we say. - Sitush (talk) 15:49, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Year of Birth 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: I am seriously thinking of reverting this to how it was prior to the mass of edits by Tachs around April 2019. Well-intentioned I am sure they were but they really haven't helped matters. I've already removed loads of poor-to-terrible citations etc but there comes a point when it is simpler just to wind it back. - Sitush (talk) 15:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert? 

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thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: Narayana guru has no religion , even though he is born to hindu ezhava . he said he did not belonged to any caste or religion 
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/pm-modi-hails-contributions-of-sree-narayana-guru/article65356290.ece
https://www.mangalorean.com/sree-narayana-guru-said-one-caste-one-religion-one-god-but-never-asked-naming-circle-in-his-name/
http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Narayana_Guru 173.66.121.55 (talk) 02:54, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  No religion  

message: ==== Aruvippuram Shiva Prathishta====
As narrated by shivalingadasa Swamikal who had witnessed the event.
 Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  In my view, no. It’s not encyclopaedic. It’s anecdotal. And it’s greatly excessive in length. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 06:21, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification admin. Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can i add this ? - Aruvippuram Shiva Prathishta 

message: As narrated by shivalingadasa Swamikal who had witnessed the event.
 Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  In my view, no. It’s not encyclopaedic. It’s anecdotal. And it’s greatly excessive in length. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 06:21, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification admin. Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aruvippuram Shiva Prathishta

message: i need to add some contents as well as images, but fear that it would be termed as 'excessive'
But if you see this wikipedia page Swami Vivekananda , you can see even his relative's , and other family pics too.
May i add some pics which is aligning with the format of Wikipedia article too this page ? Also need to add some sections with proper references.
 can you please help me here? Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Ningalonnichpovuka, I hope you are fine. You can’t use another page with an excessive gallery as grounds for adding them all here again too. It’s too much. This is an encyclopaedia, not a fan site. Sorry. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 13:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  'excessive' ?  

message: I observed a new change in philosophy of narayana guru to vedantha. Yes i agree that he was a advaitha vedhanthin from his work athmopadesha shathakam , but he also supports for duality as seen from his first verse. he never explicitly said he support any philosophy but it can be seen from his works. I too oppose the idea of putting 'one caste one religion one god' as his philosophy because it is just a low level philosophy/thought when taking his work as a whole.
Also one thing shold be mentioned here is that he also said ' my religion is also bhudhism' , so putting vedanta as his philosophy , i dont thing it is apt.
I know narayana guru was from siddha tradition of rishis , his work from suppport advaitha and daitha in some place also, he even told in the last verse of athmopadesha shatakam than the universe or brahman along with out athma is so complex and cannot be explained by words or human understandable ideas.
What do you think here  Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 16:29, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Either keep that empty or add all philosophies. ChandlerMinh (talk) 07:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philosophy 

message: Hi,
Sree narayana guru is the father of Kerala renaissense , a spiritual orator and  a saint . However a court order regarding a land dispute is used as a definition of sree narayana guru . Considering the language I am pretty sure this is done by haters to degrade him . The statement goes like this : 
" There was a rumor about Narayana Guru that he is a god, but in reality, he is not a god. He is an Indian social reformer. The statue of Narayana Guru cannot be treated as a deity, the Kerala High court observed.<ref>{{Cite web |title=Narayana Guru Not An Avatar Of God: Kerala High Court . " 
There are millions of God in India itself and there is no proof of them being god , god is not science but a belief . The high court ruled that he cannot be considered as an avatar of Vishnu as claimed by some ,since avatar is a Hindu concept and his statue cannot be considered as diety . This had nothing to do with anyone being god or not. As I said gos is a belief of a group of people. This sentence is twisted to define a great person that too as a defining paragraph . I have moved this to a subsection.  please resist such hate spewing attempts Wannabesomething123 (talk) 18:14, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism -Controversy as a defining speech 

message: I have noticed that a certain paragraph regarding this person being worshiped as or seen as equal to god or not , and an indian state high court order regarding the same is being pulled into the main section .
The reason why it do not fit there , 
1) The definition of god changes from religion to region , every religion tends to devalidate others god being god ,doesnt mean that they cannot worship whatever they want . Noone can impose anyones religious ideology on others. In south asia aninals to naturak resources are considered as god. Also the sources are from indian news portals , it says that he cannot be considered as a hindu avatar or a hindu diety. It have nothing to do with the concept of god outside hindu concept nor it devalidates it.also these rulings have limited validity in a global perspective . Hence you cannot use it to prove anyone being god or not or the existence of god. Regarding the court ruling it seems well acknowledged in the section . 'In popular Media '. Bilgiljilll (talk) 18:23, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Constant Revision  

message: The name is Sree Narayana guru and not Narayana guru.
A just a google results will reveal this.
These are references from leading news articles from India on the name Sree Narayana guru. Infact the organizatiosn like SNDP and other organziations formed under his name has this 'sree'.
1
2
3
4
5
6
Requesting to change the name of the article. Afv12e (talk) 23:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change 'Narayana Guru' to 'Sree Narayana Guru' 

message: The article is missing many reformations done by sree narayan guru. 
Most of that is incidents or events rather than a movement. 
Most of the references are in Malayalam language and is from Sree Narayana Dharma Paripalana Yogam sites. Just wondering those sources can be taken here.
If else someone please add sources and mile stones here , so that we can discuss and add those. Afv12e (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article missing many reformations done by Sree Narayan Guru