Talk:Ethnos360

message: Their web site states "more than 1,500 NTM missionaries" and lists 16 nations (15 with missionaries "assigned"). Their online database shows 1,690, a sampling of which shows many without recent entries or entries only from their training within the U.S. Not sure what better source there is for a count of active missionaries, or an average active in a given year. Samatva (talk) 20:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers of Missionaries

message: Despite the best of intentions no contact between two widely differing cultures leaves either unchanged. If NTM is to be (justly) accused of transculturization, it must equally be acknowledged that it is impossible for this not to occur, within the stated purposes of the organization. Christianity, itself, is "western" and conservative evangelical doctrine adds a layer of cultural norms and practices upon scripture. Standards of hygiene, agricultural practices, medical care, the sanctity of human life, standards of discipline and punishment for offences as well as what constitutes an offense are all culturally-based practices that the individual missionary inevitably introduces to a foreign culture. It has been my privelege to live in several different countries, each having its own culture, and to have been affected them. Even though I was a NTM MK myself (in the 1950's) and have a sister and nephew as active NTM missionaries, I recognize that from a more liberal perspective there is much to be criticised about NTM practices. The fundamental criticisms differ little from those offered against any fundamentalist Christian organization - it is their expressed intent to impose a set of beliefs on the non-believer. Agilberttx (talk) 08:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agilberttx, what you are saying is very true, but, the NTM Wikipedia Article is not the place to discuss (Christian)(Muslim) (7th Day Adventis) (Whoever else) missionaries impact on the culture of the target group.  According to Wikipedia's policies, we want to state the facts (SoandSo accused NTM, NTM Responded by...), not get into a discussion of why a reader should take a particular fact one way or another.  This is why I am reverting your edits.  This discussion is better said in a transculturization  article, or something of the kind. Or, if we edit some of the more blatantly Non-NPOV / Un-Sourced content ("The history of NTM itself, particularly with regard to the need for the level of preparation of missionary prospects prior to their assignments, demonstrates a degree of self-criticism and recognition of a need for change."), maybe we can put it into a different section, but not under criticism.  Thoughts? Anapologetos (talk) 15:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

text: My thinking is that when the criticism is specifically the impact on indigenous religion and culture, an NPOV requires a balanced presentation of the facts. While I am actually not a big fan of NTM, I recognize that their stated mission in fact is to have a cultural impact. Therefore criticism that they have such an impact is disingenuous. I have seen much good done by missionaries, and some not-so-good also, but fair is fair and if there is a measure wherein such a cultural impact is inherent in the "mission" it should appear somewhere in the article if the criticism is also included.Agilberttx (talk) 19:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously reducing a group of people _from_ being independent and self-supporting _to_ living on handouts and being wracked with disease is not in any meaning of the word that I'm aware of an 'improvement'.  Every culture lives in a homeostasis which has been developed over a lengthy period of cultural evolution.  Disrupting that homeostasis by importing western medicine or western concepts of law or western whatever will cause wide-spread harm and a world of unexpected and disastrous consequences.  This is why a wise man knows that some things should not be done even when they seem like good ideas because they will cause bad things in  the long run.-65.185.154.132 (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Criticism

message: First off, I am really not trying to delete all the criticism from this article--I am just trying to make sure that it is sourced accurately--As for the criticism from Paul Gifford, the source is "Gifford p. 202"--> which gives me no help at all trying to check the sources--Mr. Gifford has written several books, and after doing a Google book search, and am having trouble finding which book it is--Does anybody have any ideas?
Thanks!
Anapologetos (talk) 16:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Paul Gifford's Criticism

message: So I was poking the article today, and as I followed the sources for the Survival International claims, I read the source, , and as I looked at it, all I am seeing is that this organization, Survival International makes some pretty heinous claims about NTM, yet they have no sources that they reference--All it is is "At least five of the 'evangelised' Ayoreo died during these expeditions, as the uncontacted Indians tried to defend themselves from capture. " claims that this is a fact--But they dont quote any eyewitnesses, or anything--How can we use this as a valid source when they don't even have any sources that they quote--  Any thoughts or ideas? Anapologetos (talk) 05:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anybody? Anapologetos (talk) 05:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you could add a statement to the end reflecting that, such as "Survival International and other critics have accused New Tribes Mission of using criminal tactics in their zeal to convert indigenous populations, including armed manhunts, kidnappings, selling them into forced labour, imprisonment in Mission camps, and even genocide, though they have given no evidence for these assertions." That preserves the criticism, but it allows the reader to judge its value more accurately. SU Linguist (talk) 17:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not a bad idea, but it doesn't deal with the main issue: The fact that a Wikipedia article is quoting from a source that itself has no sources, no eyewitness reports, nothing to backup its claims?Anapologetos (talk) 21:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if nobody has any other input, I might remove it completely, and see if that will get somebody else to discuss this issue? :)  Anapologetos (talk) 16:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survival International's Claims

message: I'm removing a POV statement and a dead-link source.  Just look at eco-action's missionary page, nothing could be more POV.--24.174.98.215 03:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User 24.174.98.215, please stop deleting the Eco-Action.org blurb--let's talk about it and see if we can make it more NPOV, rather than just deleting it...  I myself think that eco-action.org is a pretty extremist site to be citing (http://www.eco-action.org/mission/ntm.html)  Esp. since they do not cite any references whatsoever!  (?) Any thoughts on this anybody? Anapologetos 12:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Keep it. —Babelfisch 02:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm game for removing it if we can find something a little more neutral that represents the same viewpoint.  However, I do not see an intrinsic problem with biased sources.  The goal is to keep the article itself unbiased...not the sources that are cited within the article.  If the source does not provide any credible backup, that would bring into question whether or not it is a legitimate source in the first place.  However, this is a different issue than the source's point of view.  I agree with Anapologetos.  This viewpoint does merit recognition in the article, but a more credible source would be preferable.--Son of thunder 01:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that we are looking at two different issues here: 1st, that the article source is quite biased--but I also agree that it is ok to quote biased sources (what source is really NOT biased) The 2nd Issue is the fact that the quoted article does not have ANY sources for it's article (even though it references quite a few different stories, ect) I believe this would be the real problem.  According to Wikipedia Verifiablity and Reliable Sources policies, I belive that the quoting of the article to not be correct--Specifically the point that there is no citing of sources of the claims/editorial oversight/questionable reliablity of website(?).  Thoughts? Anapologetos 01:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anybody? I would like to try and get this resolved in a timely manner.Anapologetos 15:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been a long time since anyone else has weighed in.  I'd say a more academically sound source is necessary.  Go ahead and make the change.  Eco-action does not hold water.--Son of thunder 23:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good--Removing now until we can figure something else out.Anapologetos 11:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eco-action as a source

message: Hello there! I have been lurking around for quite a while now, but I thought I would get involved.  I am currently a student at one of NTM's training centers in MO.  First up, I wanted to apologize for the NTM person who edited this article w/o logging in and discussing such changes.  It was brought to the attention of NTM's leadership, and dealt with.  I am not speaking for NTM, but I do know that they do not look kindly on that kind of stuff.  We wish to be above reproach on everything we do.  Having said that, I would like to take this opportunity over the next while to help provide factual, NPOV, sourced material for this article.  I can point out many such errors right now (The article states that "this training is accredited" (speaking of the NTM training), when in fact, it is definitly NOT accredited.  I have just graduated from one of the 2-year Bible schools this past may, and I have an associates degree that is accecpted at many major colleges (moody/CIU, etc), but it is not acredited.  Things like this, I would like to help clean up--but, I am a firm believer in all that wikipedia stands for, and as such, I will be sourcing/verifying, and discussing all edits. I think that that is all I have to say! Hope ya'll have a great day!
Anapologetos 18:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any help is appreciated.  As for the accreditation issue, I mistook other schools' policies of accepting credits for full-fledged accreditation.  I have already corrected the error.  Do you have any thoughts on the removal of the NPOV tag (see discussion below)?--Son of thunder 01:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well, I have just made a few changes (all sourced) (changed associates to bachelors, for the 4 year training program), etc... I then reread the article in light of pov, and I think that it would be fine to take off the npov tag--I dont see any way-out-there npov, on either the critcal/non-critical stuff... but I may be missing some--anybody else?(Oh crap--I just realized I wasnt logged in when I did those changes! oh well--it was me! :) Anapologetos 15:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Ian, I think you can feel free to correct any factual errors you find.  However, I do think it would diplomatic of you to hold off on any changes to the "criticism" section before discussing them here first, given your admitted bias.  I think you'll be a valuable asset to this article.--Son of thunder 01:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Factualization

message: To balance things a bit, may I tell of friends of mine were missionary students in the Matlock centre here in the UK some years back; it was I who transported them, their kids and all they owned, to the centre in my truck. They were a long-term married couple and had joined with their four young children, after much soul searching. Acting on his conscience, the man confessed, a few months in, to a brief, extra-marital gay relationship, long since over and never repeated, (I must point out that I was not involved in that in any way, I was merely told the details by the man concerned as a trusted friend). His intention was to confess it, put it behind him and be faithful to God. The NTM leadership ,on hearing his confession, phoned the USA and immediately and with no opportunity to revoke it, threw the whole family out onto the street! They had given up everything to join, so were forced to start their lives over. This put a *HUGE* strain on their marriage, obviously, and caused my friend to go through a prolonged period of awful depression which lasted many years; he never really got over it. 
The leaders of NTM acted heartlessly and ruthlessly against a 100% committed Christian couple, and almost wrecked a marriage with many young children involved. They were completely unable to see that the man involved had only been in a temporarily confused relationship which he had wholly renounced, but my main concern is that these people go into tribal cultures and force their objectionable blind puritanism, along with their famed cultural annihilation, on uneducated people. NTM is a dreadful organisation, in my experience, through watching this family be treated like dross by them, and NTM's "witness" seems to be based on appearing lily-white, whoever it damages. The leaders exhibited not even a scintilla of the "spirit of Christ" in this whole nasty incident, which played a most significant part in my own rejection of evangelical Christianity, lock, stock and barrel. To read the NTM-flattering propaganda on the Wikipedia entry here makes me feel nauseated, frankly. NTM is quite evidently nothing other than a dangerous, dictatorial cult. Trevor H. (UK) 03:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC
:: To put this a little bit in perspective: Whenever somebody wants to join NTM, as part of the application proccess, they say whether or not they have been, or are currently, in a homosexual relationship--They then sign an agreement that, among other things, say that they acknowledge that they can be asked to leave if such a thing happens, or has happened. I'm not sure what there is to get upset about(?)  The couple knew the policy, and knew what was going to happen...  Also, I ask you Trevor, if there is anything non-NPOV in this article, as you allude to ("NTM-flattering propaganda"), please by all means, start discussing it! Anapologetos 23:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruthless treatment of students in UK 

message: Intro says that someone says:
:"New Tribes Mission is in the vanguard of Christian missions. NTM sends out trained missionaries; they send them to the most needy peoples and places on earth; and they send them equipped with a missionary strategy that is second to none."
This is not fit for an intro, since it simply tell us nothing, but instead gives us the impression that a fanatic was here and scrawled. They (the mission) might be good, but in the intro it should be substantiated in what way (whether they prepare by learning language, whether they prepare their karate and levitation abilities...), the subjective evaluation indicating "second to none" is a recension, and should be moved to some Public reception or some such. Said: Rursus (☻) 08:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I see what your saying... The point of the quote (from what I can tell), was to quote a well-known guy (in Evangelical Missiology), to say what NTM does.  If we can accomplish the same thing (an intro of NTM), without the quotation, I am all for it. Anapologetos (talk) 19:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It most certainly can be done without it. This is from their testimonials page. Testimonials pages are put to advertise the organisation in question. The quotation doesn't really contain much in they way of actual information anyway; it's just praise. Munci (talk) 17:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

text: NTM's Purpose Statement reads "Motivated by the love of Christ, and empowered by the Holy Spirit, NTM exists to assist the ministry of the local church through the mobilizing, equipping, and coordinating of missionaries to evangelize unreached people groups, translate the Scriptures, and see indigenous New Testament churches established that truly glorify God."
And so?? The statement in itself is quite OK, but it must be followed by something about the method, otherwise it is just citation of a "boast". Said: Rursus (☻) 09:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Retracted. Ignore me on this. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Advertizing Intro!

message: First para in section Mission reads:
:NTM's Purpose Statement reads "Motivated by the love of Christ, and empowered by the Holy Spirit, NTM exists to assist the ministry of the local church through the mobilizing, equipping, and coordinating of missionaries to evangelize unreached people groups, translate the Scriptures, and see indigenous New Testament churches established that truly glorify God."
And so?? The statement in itself is quite OK, but it must be followed by something about the method, otherwise it is just citation of a "boast". Said: Rursus (☻) 09:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Retracted. Ignore me on this. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More advertizing

message: I have no problem with you taking out the unsourced statement about NTM being the 2nd largest, etc.  The problem I have is that you also edited a direct quotation by David Hesselgrave, rendering the resulting quote very awkward, as well as not what he acutally said.  If the article quotes somebody, we can't just go pulling out random parts of the quote.  If you feel for some reason that we need to edit the Hesselgrave quote, by all means, let's hear it, but please don't just randomly edit quotes without written justification on the TP.  Thanks! Anapologetos (talk) 20:47, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: RE: Gromit7859 Edits

message: I converted the GRACE report link to a standard Reference link.  I also removed the links to the Forum posts/Allegations, per the No Original Research policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anapologetos (talk • contribs) 16:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I must strongly object to the naming of the victims in this section. This is highly inappropriate. 122.111.201.124 (talk) 09:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abuse Allegations Section Editing 

message: This article reads like a promotion for the missionaries. The base sections of the article come straight from the organization's own promotional material, rather than third party sources. As such we are left with a very distorted and one-sided perspective on the Mission, and this needs to be resolved. Owen (talk) 05:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promotional article 

message: The section added this year regarding allegations of two Brazilian men keeping nut harvesters in virtual slavery is not actually connected to this group. There is a national mission in Brazil of the same name, but it has existed as an independent entity for more than 40 years. I would submit that this information is therefore irrelevant to this page because one organization cannot be held responsible for another organization's personnel's actions. I propose that section be removed entirely.  Thoughts? --RationalFacts (talk) 21:06, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slavery Allegations not connected to this organization 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Here are a bunch of articles about Ethnos360 in the news over their attempts to contact tribes.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/mar/23/the-isolated-tribes-at-risk-of-illness-from-amazon-missionaries
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/12/fears-uncontacted-tribes-evangelical-missionaries-plan-helicopter/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-indigenous/brazil-prosecutors-seek-to-remove-ex-missionary-from-indigenous-post-idUSKBN2052KY - this one mentions government ties, like the guardian link above.
I'm not sure where they'd go, but they are relevant citations.2A02:C7F:B05A:E100:54C7:200A:E20A:9FD6 (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back in the news over COVID 19 

message: Hi,
Although the part regarding recognition is true, they were recognized by Ministry Watch in the past, it is out of date. Ministry Watch no longer recommends them as a ministry to support. They instead recommend that potential donors withhold giving based on their transparency metrics. Here is the link. https://db.ministrywatch.com/ministry.php?ein=396024926 24.209.148.47 (talk) 22:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recognition