Talk:Horacio Gutiérrez

message: This article has now been protected from IP editing due to the repeated re-insertion of promotional material by Maryphillips1952 and a series of his/her IPs. MaryPhillips, this is your chance to DISCUSS the changes you wish to see in the article. Multiple editors have now told you that your edits are overly promotional and read like an advertisement, not an encyclopedia article. If you're willing to work with us, please list here the FACTS that you wish to see in the article, and we can help you phrase them appropriately. You may not continue creating new accounts or changing locations to just keep re-adding the promotional content to the article. If you want to add information to the article, you must discuss it here and get input from other editors before you put it into the article, since you don't seem to have a good grasp of what is and isn't appropriate to add. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:36, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV edits by IPS/Maryphillips1952 

message: Ok, let's see what we can do here. Mary, you dropped a whole lot of text just above, not all of it clear or comprehensible, so I'm going to try to go through and parse what it is you want. A few points before we get started, though. First, the fact that another article might contain some wording or claims is not a justification for this one containing them. Because this is a wiki, which anyone can edit and which is run by volunteers, sometimes other stuff exists when it shouldn't. Second, please read (if you haven't already) our neutrality policy and this information about "peacock" terms that we try to avoid; they may help you understand why the wordings you're suggesting aren't acceptably encyclopedic. 
# Mary asks to use: (Please insert revision) Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana), is a Cuban-American classical pianist. He is considered one of the great virtuoso pianists of our time..Joan Chissell, Times of London, November 25, 1974Harold C. Schonberg The Great Pianists:From Mozart to Present, Simon and Schuster, 1987 
##Fluffernutter's opinion: No objection to "Cuban-American classical pianist." However, this is an encyclopedia, and we cover facts. Facts are things like "Gutiérrez has won award X" or "In reviews, Gutiérrez has been called 'a virtuoso'." Facts are not things that involve the article presenting an opinion, such as "Gutiérrez is a virtuoso".
#Mary asks to use: Gutierrez was born in Havana, Cuba, the eldest of four children, to Tomás V. Gutiérrez and Josefina Gutiérrez. His mother was his first piano teacher, and was herself, an accomplished pianist. His first formal teacher was César Pérez Sentenat. A child prodigy, he began performing before audiences at four years of age, and at 11, performed as a guest soloist with the Havana Symphony. His life changed when the Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro gained control in 1959. At the time, he was 10 years old. There was political pressure on the family to send him to Czechoslovakia to study piano. Too young to be separated from the family, the family decided to leave the country.
##Fluffernutter's opinion: You're correct that the article could use some biography of him, but you do need to provide sources for this (again, just because other article's don't doesn't mean they're not supposed to), and the wording you're proposing is non-neutral. I would suggest something like: "Gutierrez was born in Havana, Cuba, the eldest of four children, to Tomás V. Gutiérrez and Josefina Gutiérrez. His mother was his first piano teacher, and was herself, an accomplished pianist. His first formal teacher was César Pérez Sentenat. Gutiérrez began performing before audiences at four years of age, and at 11, performed as a guest soloist with the Havana Symphony. When Fidel Castro gained control of Cuba in 1959, the family decided to leave the country together rather than send Gutiérrez abroad alone at a young age."
#Mary proposes: A U.S. citizen since 1967, he lives and works in the U.S., and is married to pianist Patricia Asher, who also studied with William Masselos and Adele Marcus at the Julliard School of Music. Gutiérrez is an avid reader, and a great film and theater fan. His second cousin is renowned Cuban filmmaker Tomás Gutiérrez Alea. Gutiérrez suffers from bursitis and a chronic back injury.[2][3][4]
##Fluffernutter's opinion: I understand your desire to include "interesting" things here, but most of what you're suggesting be added is unnecessary "fluff" - stuff that pads out the article without actually having anything to do with the article's subject. It doesn't really matter where his wife studied unless he met her there; it doesn't really matter whether he likes books or movies (who doesn't?). On the other hand, the mention of his health problems could probably be expanded, because according to the sources those have had an effect on his career.
#Mary proposes: Gutiérrez won the Silver Medal in the 1970 International Tchaikovsky Competition and was soon presented in all major concert venues by Sol Hurok's management, creating a sensation internationally.  His debut in Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto with Zubin Metha and the Los Angeles Philharmonic made critic Martin Bernheimer of the L.A. Times write, “His name is Horacio Gutiérrez. You won’t forget it".Martin Bernheimer,“Horacio Makes L.A. Debut, Los Angeles Times, August 24, 1970 After his debut recital in London, Joan Chissell, critic of The Times of London wrote, "His virtuosity is of the kind of which legends are made." And added at the end of the review ... 'he could become one of the very great pianists of the century."Joan Chissell, Times of London, November 25, 1974
##Fluffernutter's opinion: Again, we're running into the problem of trying to praise him rather than just write about the facts. An encyclopedia doesn't call someone a "sensation." An encylopedia describes facts. In the case of your first sentence here, the facts are that he won the Silver Medal and that he was presented in concert venues; it's someone's opinion whether that means he's a "sensation" or not. With regard to quoting the reviews, what you want to add is excessive. A more encyclopedic approach would be to say something like "Reviewers have generally been impressed by Gutiérrez's performances,Martin Bernheimer,“Horacio Makes L.A. Debut, Los Angeles Times, August 24, 1970 with the Times of London calling them "virtuosity"Joan Chissell, Times of London, November 25, 1974." This does what you want - it brings in the fact that people have called him a virtuoso - without sounding like we're advertising for him. We don't need to quote every review; that's what the references are for. We just need to say what the reviews mean for his career, and then move on.
#Mary proposes: In 1982, he was awarded the prestigious Avery Fisher Prize in recognition of his musical achievements.Avery Fisher Artist Program http://new.lincolncenter.org/live/index.php/prize-recipients
##Fluffernutter's opinion: No problem with this being added.
#Mary proposes: "Gutiérrez’s recordings include..."
##Fluffernutter's opinion: This is also fine, although it could perhaps be more easily expressed as a list instead of a paragraph of text.
#Mary proposes: His most recent recording, “George Perle: A Retrospective”, was named one of the ten best recordings of 2006 by The New Yorker.<Russell Platt, New Yorker Classical Notes Best of 2006, January 15, 2007
##Fluffernutter's opinion: No problem with this.
#Mary proposes: "Gutierrez is best known for memorable interpretations of the Romantic repertoire. However, he's also been highly praised for performances of the Classical style in music of composers such as Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms."
##Fluffernutter's opinion: No, this is the sort of thing that needs to be completely reworded, if it's usable at all. Define "memorable interpretations." Define "the classical style of." And so forth. This is handwaving language that makes him sound nice but doesn't actually add any knowledge to the encyclopedia article. You also absolutely need to cite your sources for this sort of thing. You could probably say "Reviewer X says that Gutierrez performs 'memorable interpretations' of [blah blah]," but you can't just say "he's best known for memorable interpretations," but until you provide some information about what sources you're using to make these conclusions, though, I can't really help you re-word the sentence.
Does this information all make sense to you? Do you understand now why some of the language you were trying to put into the article is problematic? Let's work out the correct wording here before we add anything into the article, and if you have any questions about our policies, please feel free to ask. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Reworking by [[user:Fluffernutter]]

message: Thank you for your help. I incorporated your suggestions and reworded and added additional information for the biography. This is a work in progress. I will try to obtain more information. In addition, I am requesting minor changes in the template headings.   --Maryphillips1952 (talk) 13:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Mary, I've implemented most of your requests, but unfortunately I did so before you updated them just now. Take a look at what I did and let me know if anything else needs changing. Robert Skyhawk (T C) 01:10, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Partly done: marking as such, waiting on user input. Jnorton7558 (talk) 10:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Jnorton7558...while there may be more to do I think we can safely say that the original request has been answered. Robert Skyhawk (T C) 19:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I moved the above section to this page in the interest of centralized discussion. Mary, we'll go over these changes and see how we like them...you seem to have largely gotten the hang of this, perhaps you'd like to start editing the page directly? It's much faster than having us do it. Robert Skyhawk (T C) 19:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit request from Maryphillips1952, 27 June 2011

message: ;Copied from User talk:Robert Skyhawk
Is it possible to add virtuoso to "Horacio Gutiérrez (born in 1948, Havana) is a Cuban-American virtuoso classical pianist." I had another sentence, but perhaps adding the word virtuoso is sufficient and don't need to add "Mr. Gutiérrez is a virtuoso pianist with both Grammy and Emmy awards recognition." Which reading do you think is best?
Please place "He was seen on American television in 1966, on one of the famous Young People's Concerts with Leonard Bernstein, playing an excerpt from Pictures at an Exhibition, by Modeste Moussorgsky. [1]"  from the top section of the biography and insert above , "He currently lives and works in the U.S.  He met his wife, pianist Patricia Asher, while she was studying with William Masselos and Adele Marcus at the Julliard School of Music."[3][4]
Please delete the repeated "He was seen on American television in 1966, on one of the famous Young People's Concerts with Leonard Bernstein, playing an excerpt from Pictures at an Exhibition, by Modeste Moussorgsky. [1]"  with no active links.
Please add this paragraph after "He was seen on America televion...." "On August 23, 1970, Gutiérrez made his debut with the Los Angeles Philharmonic with  Zubin Metha conducting the Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. His first appearance was described by Martin Bernheimer as "spectacular".Martin Bernheimer,"Gutiérrez makes L.A. Debut, "His name is Horacio Gutiérrez. You won’t forget it... Actually, spectacular covers only one facet of his performance."Los Angeles Times,August 24, 1970, 
Performance and awards
Please insert after ….. Barenboim and many others  “In 1982, he was awarded the prestigious Avery Fisher Prize in recognition of his musical achievements."[4]
The sentence “He has recorded for EMI, Telarc and Chandos Records.”  is repeated in two places, please delete from the first paragraph. I added citation requested. ( http://www.seldycramerartists.com/bio_gutierrez.html)
Please add reference source to "He taught at New York's Manhattan School of Music from 2004 to 2009." (http://www.msmnyc.edu/catalog/facbio.asp?fid=1031042084)
Minor edit. Please remove reference, it should read "Mr. Gutiérrez was featured in Harold C. Schonberg’s work, “The Great Pianists: From Mozart to Present. Schonberg, Harold C.  “The Great Pianists: From Mozart to Present”, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1987
Please insert at the bottom of the discography section "Mr. Gutiérrez is a strong champion of contemporary American composers. He has performed works by William Schuman, André Previn, and George Perle." "His most recent recording, “George Perle: A Retrospective”, was named one of the ten best recordings of 2006 by The New Yorker.[8] Mr. Perle dedicated Nine Bagatelles to Mr. Gutiérrez."
Again, thank you.--Maryphillips1952 (talk) 04:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the above section to this page in the interest of centralized discussion. Mary, we'll go over these changes and see how we like them...you seem to have largely gotten the hang of this, perhaps you'd like to start editing the page directly? It's much faster than having us do it. Robert Skyhawk (T C) 19:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Second Batch

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Horacio Gutiérrez. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110723134656/http://www.georgeperle.net/events.html to http://www.georgeperle.net/events.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Horacio Gutiérrez. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101227044651/http://wqed.org/fm/psoradio/pso_audio.php?id=10 to http://www.wqed.org/fm/psoradio/pso_audio.php?id=10
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101227044651/http://wqed.org/fm/psoradio/pso_audio.php?id=10 to http://www.wqed.org/fm/psoradio/pso_audio.php?id=10
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article needs the citations properly moved to proper inline locations, not bombed with ten sources on end of one sentence. There are peacock words that needs to be removed as well. Until then, the NPOV tag should remain up. Graywalls (talk) 03:57, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: GW, it seems that MaryPhillips removed the tag, but I arrived shortly after and have given things a good scrub. The article is starting to resemble something neutral.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 07:49, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: weasel words, clean up

message: The source originally was the blog section of the Tulsa World, then it was reinserted with a book as a source. These sources aren't quite adequate to support an exceptional claim. WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Graywalls (talk) 07:34, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the version before their last set of major edits. Here is the version after which User:Maryphillips1952 inserted contents that is controversial. Even though the blog section of Tulsa World is no longer used, the controversy remains in that reliable sources do not directly support the claim of fact "one of the greatest pianist" that they insist on inserting. Graywalls (talk) 15:15, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

text: , No bias. Please continue further discussion on the article's talk page.  Graywalls (talk) 13:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

text: However, that is your own reasoning. Editors' own conclusions are not to be included in articles, per WP:NOR. So the phrasing suggested by Fluffernutter in 2011 addresses this concern. I'm also getting the attention of  as they commented on this and they are still active on Wikipedia in case they'd like to comment on thisGraywalls (talk) 13:39, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

text: This is not the proper use of the  template... I would suggest discussing the issue via WP:DRN - RichT|C|E-Mail 12:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

text: , well there's already a discussion I've started at NPOV noticeboard well before Maryphillips1952 started the helpme request and left them a notice on their page as required to do so. I felt that was the appropriate way to proceed. Graywalls (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: assertion that he's one of the greatest pianist

message: This one is a wealth of information
https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/04/arts/a-pianist-who-won-t-rush-into-things.html
Graywalls (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Source for later use