Talk:Brett's law

message: The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- 85.210.40.164 13:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: I took the extreme step of completely reverting Britbarb’s edits of 17:57, 25 July 2006 and 18:42, 26 July 2006. There may be some merit in some of the points made, but overall it seems rather thinly disguised POV. - No objection in principle to the addition of more supporting the argument that Salvia divinorum perhaps did have something to do with Brett Chidester’s death, but Britbarb’s entries are not cited, do not seem Wikipedian in spirit, - and in some places seem to contradict themselves.
Some examples:
Britbarb took the initial bullet point starting “It has not been alleged…” and switched it to say “It has been alleged…” (my italics) - reversing its meaning without including any citation or further reference.  The point as it originally stood did not require citation as it’s effectively claiming that there haven’t been any reports.  If this is not true and it’s to be reversed then there needs to be a link to something that backs that reversal up (e.g. a report). I’ve read many news stories about the Brett Chidester case and find it hard to believe if Salvia divinorum had been found on or about his person at the time of his death that this would not have been picked up and reported (many times over) in stories following his death.
Britbarb claimed that Brett tested negative in monthly drug tests required by his work in a retirement home. - And claimed that one of these tests was done without Brett’s knowledge or consent. - How would Britbarb be aware of this? Where is the source? Is this original research?
Contradicting the above point was Britbarb’s added claim - “He was smoking pot occasionally and this in now known to cause depression in teens.” - How did Brett pass his alleged drug tests in this case? 
Other points were made, again, perhaps some with some merit, but not a single one was cited. Claims such as those suggesting Brett’s writings were analysed by “medical experts” and concluding that his death was probably Salvia inspired need to be referenced.
These were Britbarb’s first ever Wikipedia contributions, - understood, it’s an emotive subject, but suggest perhaps a read of Wikipedia’s policies and guidelines would be in order before further submissions. 
--SallyScot 21:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  25+26 July 2006

message: Despite the discussion entry above, Britbarb did pretty much the same thing again on 17:11 and 19:12, 27 July 2006. Some minor differences to their previous edit, this time choosing not to include the point about Brett smoking pot with their contradictory claim about his negative drug tests, but still without a single citation.
Gary followed the first of these Britbarb edits with requests for citation, but I’ve chosen instead to basically revert again, then to allow some less contentious wording changes, making them myself on top of the reversion.
In summary these are:
:Changed the initial bulleted point “It has not been alleged…” to “It has not been reported”. – If Britbarb wants to reverse this to “It has been reported...” then it needs a link to at least one report. I don’t think it’s acceptable just to reverse the meaning, especially given that Britbarb’s hasn’t responded to the original discussion (or even included an edit summary) to justify their point.
:“Contrary to some news reports, Brett’s suicide note did not mention Salvia...” - To this I’ve left Britbarb’s addition “In his earlier writings he wrote that Salvia made him realize our existence here on earth is pointless.” I also added “Further context is lacking however as his journals have not been fully published.”
:“Brett's parents have conceded that he had anyway been suffering from depression.” Britbarb’s rewording of “had anyway” to “may have” seems reasonable.
:I added a new point...
::There have been no other reported cases of Salvia related suicides anywhere else in the world.
Apologies once again if I’ve removed points which turn out to be of value, but they do really require further reference.  I think they should be added in a more considered manner, maybe one or two cited points at a time so it does not look like sabotage.
Britbarb’s claims are suggestive of inside knowledge, from sources close to the family. In fact, their edit of 19:12, 27 July 2006 closed with the comment “His close friends, family, and girlfriend […] continue to mourn his loss. This composite group will continue to monitor this listing and will make corrections that state the actual facts, not suppositions, conjectures, falsehoods, and detrimental information regarding the life and death of Brett Chidester.”
While such points of view may otherwise be of interest, Wikipedia is not the place to announce them.
 
The following is quoted from Wikipedia:No original research “The fact that we exclude something does not necessarily mean the material is bad — it simply means that Wikipedia is not the proper venue for it. We would have to turn away even Pulitzer-level journalism and Nobel-level science if its authors tried to publish it first on Wikipedia.”
If Brett Chidester’s close friends, family, and girlfriend want to create a memorial website in honour of their loved and lost then I honestly wish them all the best with that, but it should be clear what it is and who it’s by, and somewhere else first please, not Wikipedia.
--SallyScot 22:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 27 July 2006

message: Thanks to Xoloz we now have the old history prior to Jul, 30 2006 which had been lost after the article deletion. - Unsigned Char72 10:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History only undeletion

message: Sometime before the 7th September 2006, possibly on the 6th, the message on the Brett Chidester Memorial Group website to which the main article had referred in the context of Brett’s alcohol use was removed .  A copy of the message as it was originally posted on the memorial website a couple of days after Brett’s death can be found here. The memorial message deletion followed repeated deletion of reference made to it in the main Wikipedia article. The article deletions were made by user Britbarb - identifying herself as Brett’s aunt.  A full history of previous edits to the main article and discussion pages currently remains as we would expect.
--SallyScot 18:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of memorial message

message: Do we really need so much information about his alcohol use? Alcohol doesn't cause people to commit suicide. People likely to commit suicide just drink alcohol.
-- Gary 23:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The relationship between alcohol, suicide and mental disorders is complex. A Northern Ireland study found, for example, that 89% of suicides with alcohol dependence had at least one other co-morbid mental disorder (Foster et al. 1997, cited in Foster 2001). This suggests that, in such cases, several mental health factors may influence suicide.
This seems to indicate that the link between alcohol and suicide is too complex to blame Brett Chidester's suicide on alcohol. He probably had other mental disorders besides alcoholism, if he was even alcoholic in the first place. It looks to me like people likely to commit suicide drink alcohol to drown their sorrows.
I think that people see a tragedy like Chidester's suicide and immediately search for an explanation, an answer for why it happened. They jump to all sorts of conclusions - whether it is Salvia, alcohol, or something else. The truth is that so many people have used alcohol and Salvia that you have to ignore reality to say that either one was the direct cause of his death.
--Gary 17:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Document's summary points previously listed here now posted against the main article.
Don’t get me wrong. I actually agree with you about people tending to jump to conclusions. Reality is more complex, and I’m not saying that alcohol was the direct cause of Brett’s death. I’m just presenting evidence suggesting that there may be a relationship. - One that’s been largely overlooked so far in Brett’s case. 
--SallyScot 18:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: TMI?

message: I’ve removed the reference to British Medical Journal’s article . The actual quote from BMJ was: "We have had no deaths among patients taking minocycline, but five patients have committed suicide because of depression associated with acne; a further 51 patients have been admitted to hospital with a drug overdose due to depression." - Thus the original point about acne having a general association stands, but particular association with minocyline doesn’t.
--SallyScot 15:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure how to interpret that sentence; the problem with the BMJ study is that since majority of patients had been treated with minocycline, any statement valid for "acne" is also valid for "minocycline". What I mean is that the phrase "depression associated with acne" automatically implies "depression associated with minocycline". Anyway I'll investigate more, if I remember well, there was  a comparative study between accutane, minocycline and other acne drugs. - Unsigned Char72 17:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Acne

message: As usual more untruths about the life of Brett Chidester. I will continue to edit this article for untruths, suppositions, hearsays, or possibilities. We, as his family, want the FACTS of his life published. Once again, as stated before, Brett had several drug tests performed in the last 6 months of his life. ALL, repeat ALL, came back negative for drugs. As for depression, his family assumes he must have suffered from some type of depression in order to take his life. Did he show signs of depression? Absolutely not. Two psychologists who have reviewed his suicide note, medical records and notes found with his schoolwork (he kept no journal as stated in this article) have stated that his death was drug related, not depression related. They have both concurred that depression severe enough to cause suicide WOULD not be possible to be hidden from his family, his friends, his teachers, his co-workers or most importantly, his girlfriend. He had never been treated for any medical condition, in his life, other than measles and acne. He was NEVER treated for depression because there was no evidence of depression.  He was a normal, happy teenager, with many devoted friends and family. He started exploring things that he read about that interested him, including absinthe and salvia. Exploration in the teen years is normal and no one ever expected his love of life and zest for knowledge to be his demise.
We have no problem with the facts, as hurtful as they sometimes may be, being profiled on this article. We do take issue with people who obviously did not know or care about Brett Chidester, posting untruths about him. Brett was very much a believer in truths and he deserves so much better than the fiction that is being posted here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Britbarb (talk • contribs) 20:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I question whether these psychologists have the first clue what they're talking about.  It is probably the most common thing I hear around suicide amongst young people -"But they seemed happy", "They were acting normal", and so on.
===You know Brett Chidester? I doubt it.===
I find it amazing, and frankly quite puzzling, that all of you, who did not actually know Brett, write with such certainty on his personality, the way he died and why he died. Even more puzzling is why you are so interested in daily monitoring of an article of someone you never met. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Britbarb (talk • contribs) 17:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Dear Britbarb: even if we have different point of views, we share the same purpose, namely, documenting the case of Brett Chidester. Anyway, Wikipedia accepts only published sources, so even if you knew Brett directly you can't post here your views and opinions, regarderless if they are true or not. It may seem absurd but it is so (please check Wikipedia policy). The reason? Anyone can come here claiming to be a Brett's relative or friend and write falsities. Nonetheless I consider your contributions very valuable so I encourage you to write them in a more appropriate place, e.g. in a book or simply in a dedicated web site. It would be, by the way, a good tribute to Brett's memory. My interest in Brett's case does not have any obscure purpose but is founded simply on the seek for truth. I hold the belief that the reasons of Brett's suicide go beyond what has been reported by the sensationalistic media, so I am trying to document them the best I can. Sincerely, --Unsigned Char72 22:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You can't know he was not drinking a lot. Really it will never cease to amaze me how oblivious adults can be. In my experience parents are usually the last to know, even in a close family.
---
In 1984 a 19-year old shot himself in the head while listening to Ozzy Osbourne's ‘Suicide Solution’ (a song, ironically, about the dangers of alcohol). The teenager’s father described him as a “perfectly normal kid who didn’t show any sign of depression at all. Then six hours later, he's dead. Nobody can explain it. The only thing we know is that he was listening to this music”. The parents’ following lawsuit against Ozzy Osbourne (which became national news and a first amendment issue) was dismissed in 1986. 
The sincerity of the family’s belief and the degree of closeness to their loved and lost isn’t really the issue of doubt in situations like these.  What’s more questionable is their capacity for objectivity in seeking some kind of closure on the case, and here making edits and deletions to articles simply to suit their own preferred version of the story.  
As far acne goes, if Britbarb wants to make the discussion point that it was a total “non-issue”, because both his parents spent countless dollars and countless hours seeing to it that he wouldn’t suffer and had beautiful skin, then that’s fine. It’s not really my definition of a non-issue (countless dollars and hours suggests some kind of issue to me) but never mind for now.
With regard to booze, despite the ongoing protestations, the article at no point explicitly blames (/blamed) alcohol for Brett’s suicide either. Britbarb continues to make accusations which are simply not borne out – suggesting that it would not be possible for Brett to have functioned well - “He wouldn't have be able to keep his job, drive to school, and be an integral part of his family if he was under the influence 24/7 as these contributors would like us to believe.” ... “if he was doing the quantity of drinking that's indicated on his profile.” ... Indicated on his profile? - What profile does Britbarb mean exactly?  Are you referring to the Brett Chidester Memorial Group quote made a couple of days after his death, but which has now mysteriously disappeared?  
Well, for some readers, I still think the fact that original quote was so quickly and conveniently removed after it became a point of contention is going increase suspicions rather than reduce them.  As one of the previous discussion references says many parents see teenage drinking as simply a “rite of passage”, but some others may recognise alcohol as by “far and away the top drug of abuse by America’s teens” and would not be so reassured by remarks such as “he did no more or no less than the rest of the teens in his school and his peer group”. 
I also note Britbarb trying to beef up the case against Salvia by suggesting that it was found “at the death scene”. This is either breaking news (it’s been reported nowhere else) or a crafty piece of misdirection. - The death scene being where exactly? - Inside the tent? - The garage? - The whole house (and therefore inclusive of Brett’s bedroom)?  
I’d suggest that it’s going to look increasingly desperate to continue pushing the idea of Brett being under Salvia’s influence at the time of his death. It’s well known that the immediate effects of smoking Salvia are short-lived, the experience lasting some 10-15 minutes (and being somewhat incapacitating at that). Yet the details of his suicide would have required time-consuming research, planning and set-up; all of which, along with the slow method itself (and the writing of a suicide note), allowing plenty of scope for a change of mind and coming back to one’s senses, and suggesting that the whole thing was much more thought through and premeditated than simply a brief moment of Salvia induced madness.
The Salvia divinorum section remains in the article under possible contributory factors, and, as yet, no Salvia enthusiast has tried to edit out Brett’s alleged “our existence is general is pointless” quote (if they do, I’ll put it back in myself).  It’s not my fault if, apart from some isolated jottings found in notebooks, the evidence against Salvia is otherwise looking pretty thin. 
It is for the most part quite unreasonable to insist upon Salvia’s influence in an isolated case without also weighing up other evidence and looking for a more compelling degree of correlation.  Although the Internet is still a growing phenomenon it is by no means new. It’s been well established for well over a decade. And, regardless of whether parents (or aunties) had generally heard of it before, Salvia divinorum has been widely available in the US during all that time too.
In total about 30,000 people commit suicide each year in the US (31,484 is the latest available figure from National Center for Health Statistics for the year 2003). Of the year 2003 cases, 4,238 were under the age of 25. As well as the figures for actual suicides, it’s also worth noting the much higher number of attempted suicides. According the Samaritans there are about 750,000 suicide attempts each year.  In addition, many more will people experience depression without going as far as making an attempt on their own lives.
If Salvia divinorum contributes to depression (and/or subsequent suicide) in any significant way then, to put it bluntly, I would expect to be hearing about this with many more ‘survivors’ tales from some of the seven and a half million or so US suicide attempts of the last decade. For example, more retrospective accounts of what Salvia can do to ‘mess up your life’ like we have with more believable accounts of other substances (for example, like we have with alcohol). 
I would also expect to be able to draw inference from other cultures having long-established relationships with Salvia divinorum. And the evidence here, from perhaps centuries of indigenous Mexican use, again does not generally support the allegations of those who would intentionally or otherwise have us instead succumb to the politics of fear.
--SallyScot 16:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: General objections from Brett's aunt (and replies)

message: I find it amazing, and frankly quite puzzling, that all of you, who did not actually know Brett, write with such certainty on his personality, the way he died and why he died. Even more puzzling is why you are so interested in daily monitoring of an article of someone you never met. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Britbarb (talk • contribs) 17:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Britbarb: even if we have different point of views, we share the same purpose, namely, documenting the case of Brett Chidester. Anyway, Wikipedia accepts only published sources, so even if you knew Brett directly you can't post here your views and opinions, regarderless if they are true or not. It may seem absurd but it is so (please check Wikipedia policy). The reason? Anyone can come here claiming to be a Brett's relative or friend and write falsities. Nonetheless I consider your contributions very valuable so I encourage you to write them in a more appropriate place, e.g. in a book or simply in a dedicated web site. It would be, by the way, a good tribute to Brett's memory. My interest in Brett's case does not have any obscure purpose but is founded simply on the seek for truth. I hold the belief that the reasons of Brett's suicide go beyond what has been reported by the sensationalistic media, so I am trying to document them the best I can. Sincerely, --Unsigned Char72 22:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: You know Brett Chidester? I doubt it.

message: Bottom line on these recent edits is the users/sellers of Salvia want the focus of Brett's death to be taken off Salvia and put on his alleged alcohol use, and his depression over acne. As far as acne goes check the various pictures of Brett on the web. You won't see acne due to the fact that both his parents spent countless dollars and hours seeing to it that he wouldn't suffer from acne as many teens do.  He had beautiful skin and was very much the envy of all his friends because of his looks. Acne and minocycline played no part in his decision to take his life. This really is a ludicrious conclusion. Someone as strong as Brett would not take his life over something so easily curable. Acne was a total "non-issue" for Brett. As for his alleged drinking he did no more or no less than the rest of the teens in his school and his peer group. Considering what goes on in schools nowadays it was pretty minimal. It certainly wasn't an issue with any of us or his parents. His family, which is a large, very closeknit one, and one that Brett was central to, will continue to maintain: It would not be possible for Brett to continue to be a straight A student, a National Honor Society member and a new addition to his schools "Principals List" right before his death, if he was doing the quantity of drinking that's indicated on his profile. He wouldn't have be able to keep his job, drive to school, and be an integral part of his family if he was under the influence 24/7 as these contributors would like us to believe. What he was experimenting with frequently, and what was found with him, at the death scene, was a bag of salvia, matches and a pipe. His note, dated 12/08/05, said people will have a problem with this, but that Salvia made him see that our existence here on earth was pointless. If he believed what Salvia made him feel then why bother to stay here on this earth?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Britbarb (talk • contribs) 17:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't know he was not drinking a lot. Really it will never cease to amaze me how oblivious adults can be. In my experience parents are usually the last to know, even in a close family.
---
In 1984 a 19-year old shot himself in the head while listening to Ozzy Osbourne's ‘Suicide Solution’ (a song, ironically, about the dangers of alcohol). The teenager’s father described him as a “perfectly normal kid who didn’t show any sign of depression at all. Then six hours later, he's dead. Nobody can explain it. The only thing we know is that he was listening to this music”. The parents’ following lawsuit against Ozzy Osbourne (which became national news and a first amendment issue) was dismissed in 1986. 
The sincerity of the family’s belief and the degree of closeness to their loved and lost isn’t really the issue of doubt in situations like these.  What’s more questionable is their capacity for objectivity in seeking some kind of closure on the case, and here making edits and deletions to articles simply to suit their own preferred version of the story.  
As far acne goes, if Britbarb wants to make the discussion point that it was a total “non-issue”, because both his parents spent countless dollars and countless hours seeing to it that he wouldn’t suffer and had beautiful skin, then that’s fine. It’s not really my definition of a non-issue (countless dollars and hours suggests some kind of issue to me) but never mind for now.
With regard to booze, despite the ongoing protestations, the article at no point explicitly blames (/blamed) alcohol for Brett’s suicide either. Britbarb continues to make accusations which are simply not borne out – suggesting that it would not be possible for Brett to have functioned well - “He wouldn't have be able to keep his job, drive to school, and be an integral part of his family if he was under the influence 24/7 as these contributors would like us to believe.” ... “if he was doing the quantity of drinking that's indicated on his profile.” ... Indicated on his profile? - What profile does Britbarb mean exactly?  Are you referring to the Brett Chidester Memorial Group quote made a couple of days after his death, but which has now mysteriously disappeared?  
Well, for some readers, I still think the fact that original quote was so quickly and conveniently removed after it became a point of contention is going increase suspicions rather than reduce them.  As one of the previous discussion references says many parents see teenage drinking as simply a “rite of passage”, but some others may recognise alcohol as by “far and away the top drug of abuse by America’s teens” and would not be so reassured by remarks such as “he did no more or no less than the rest of the teens in his school and his peer group”. 
I also note Britbarb trying to beef up the case against Salvia by suggesting that it was found “at the death scene”. This is either breaking news (it’s been reported nowhere else) or a crafty piece of misdirection. - The death scene being where exactly? - Inside the tent? - The garage? - The whole house (and therefore inclusive of Brett’s bedroom)?  
I’d suggest that it’s going to look increasingly desperate to continue pushing the idea of Brett being under Salvia’s influence at the time of his death. It’s well known that the immediate effects of smoking Salvia are short-lived, the experience lasting some 10-15 minutes (and being somewhat incapacitating at that). Yet the details of his suicide would have required time-consuming research, planning and set-up; all of which, along with the slow method itself (and the writing of a suicide note), allowing plenty of scope for a change of mind and coming back to one’s senses, and suggesting that the whole thing was much more thought through and premeditated than simply a brief moment of Salvia induced madness.
The Salvia divinorum section remains in the article under possible contributory factors, and, as yet, no Salvia enthusiast has tried to edit out Brett’s alleged “our existence is general is pointless” quote (if they do, I’ll put it back in myself).  It’s not my fault if, apart from some isolated jottings found in notebooks, the evidence against Salvia is otherwise looking pretty thin. 
It is for the most part quite unreasonable to insist upon Salvia’s influence in an isolated case without also weighing up other evidence and looking for a more compelling degree of correlation.  Although the Internet is still a growing phenomenon it is by no means new. It’s been well established for well over a decade. And, regardless of whether parents (or aunties) had generally heard of it before, Salvia divinorum has been widely available in the US during all that time too.
In total about 30,000 people commit suicide each year in the US (31,484 is the latest available figure from National Center for Health Statistics for the year 2003). Of the year 2003 cases, 4,238 were under the age of 25. As well as the figures for actual suicides, it’s also worth noting the much higher number of attempted suicides. According the Samaritans there are about 750,000 suicide attempts each year.  In addition, many more will people experience depression without going as far as making an attempt on their own lives.
If Salvia divinorum contributes to depression (and/or subsequent suicide) in any significant way then, to put it bluntly, I would expect to be hearing about this with many more ‘survivors’ tales from some of the seven and a half million or so US suicide attempts of the last decade. For example, more retrospective accounts of what Salvia can do to ‘mess up your life’ like we have with more believable accounts of other substances (for example, like we have with alcohol). 
I would also expect to be able to draw inference from other cultures having long-established relationships with Salvia divinorum. And the evidence here, from perhaps centuries of indigenous Mexican use, again does not generally support the allegations of those who would intentionally or otherwise have us instead succumb to the politics of fear.
--SallyScot 16:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Blaming Alcohol Where No Blame Is Due

message: INTERESTING INFO FROM SALLYSCOT'S WEBSITE. NO WONDER HE'S SO INTERESTED IN THE FIRST KNOWN CASE OF SALVIA RELATED SUICIDE. THANKS TO BRETT'S BEST BUDDY MIKE FOR FORWARDING THIS TO COUSIN D.
...
Salvia Divinorum Scotland
...
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Britbarb (talk • contribs) 21:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Motivation for bias

message: I find the article to be vastly inappropriate in terms of its advocacy, even though it maintains a nominally even-handed approach.
The article should just stay away from anything remotely resembling any kind of advocacy.  Yet every fact about the suicide is accompanied by a treatise on why that may be irrelevant to drawing conclusions about the plant.
It may well be irrelevant to drawing conclusions about the plant, but that is not the role of an encyclopedia article.
Rather, the article should report facts, and facts alone, and stay away from debating anything.Daqu (talk) 03:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Inappropriate advocacy

message: "People who ruin it for everyone".
Because one kid who committed suicide also happened to use salvia, and his parents have to find someone/something to blame(other than the people actually responsible for the child's safety and well-being of course) other people who would/do use it responsibly now cannot.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.184.76.241 (talk) 09:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reminds me of  that SNL skit... 

message: Unless I'm mistaken, curly apostrophes shouldn't be used in article titles (or anywhere, really) unless absolutely necessary, so the title of this article is wrong.. --96.54.228.29 (talk) 04:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The title of this article 

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