Talk:Terminology of the British Isles/Archive 2

message: Can somebody do something about that image? Sorry, but it doesn't represent the shape of the British Isles very well at all. It look as if there's been  some terrible disaster - the area between Newcastle and Edinburgh has been devastated, as has East Anglia, and Cardiff and the Scottish islands aren't there anymore.... TheMadBaron 17:00, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: I have made the following changes.
Culturally, many consider the Cornish to be distinct from the English, but, politically, Cornwall is considered by the UK government to have the same status as any other county in England. However some have raised questions concerning the constitutional status of Cornwall.
For anybody out there If as the article claimed, Cornwall, for national and local purposes is a Ceremonial and Administrative county of England (and that therefore the Duchy of Cornwall is a separate issue) then:
*1) Why do the duchy Charters that are still law today talk about the whole of Cornwall being augmented into a Duchy?
*2) Why was the county of Cornwall successfully described as a Duchy in the Cornish Foreshore Case of 1856?
On behalf of the Duchy in its successful action against the Crown, which resulted in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act of 1858, Sir George Harrison (Attorney General for Cornwall) makes this submission.
1.	That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects as distinct from England.
 
2.	That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogative of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion.
 
3.	That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a great extent by Earls. 
4.	That when the Earldom was augmented  into a Duchy, the circumstances attending to it's creation, as well as the language of the Duchy Charter, not only support and confirm natural presumption, that the new and higher title was to be accompanied with at least as great dignity, power, and prerogative as the Earls enjoyed, but also afforded evidence that the Duchy was to be invested with still more extensive rights and privileges. 
5.	The Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merely by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall.
*3) Why did the Duchy of Cornwall Management Act confirm that the Duke possesses seignory and territorial rights befitting a king in 1863 if the Duchy is just a landed estate?
*4) Why did the Kilbrandon Report into the British constitution in 1969-71 recommend that Cornwall (the territory of) should be referred to as a Duchy in light of its constitutional position?
*5) Why does the Duke of Cornwall have rights of governance and honours over the whole territory of Cornwall but not Duchy lands outside Cornwall? For instance the right of wreck on all Cornish shores, the right of Bona Vicantia / treasure trove for the county of Cornwall, the right to Swans and Sturgeon caught in Cornwall, the duty to appoint the Sheriff of Cornwall and preside over the Stannary Parliaments.
*6) Why does the Duchy have its own exchequer and other arms of governance and indeed why is the duchy described in law as a body of governance if it is just a landed estate?
*7) Why did this definition of county in the Complete Oxford English Dictionary (2nd Ed 1989 p. 1044.) describe Cornwall as a Duchy?
Whence county was gradually adopted in English ( scarcely before the 15th century ) as an alternative name for the shire, and in due course applied to similar divisions made in Wales and in Ireland, as well as the shires of Scotland, and also extended to those separate parts of the realm which never were shires, as The Duchy of Cornwall, Orkney and Shetland. Part definition of the term County. 
*8) Why did the 1998 Tamar Bridge act confirm the power of the Duke and border of Cornwall (the Duchy) if the Duchy of Cornwall is just a landed estate?
Bretagne 44 14:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Constitutional status of Cornwall]]

message: Robertbyrne just reverted the following addition: 
:The two languages spoken in the British Isles are English and Celtic. The English that is spoken is referred to with either English English or British English, with the latter being more ambiguous for various reasons, as mentioned above.
saying there is no such thing as 'the Celtic language'. But it doesn't say there is one Celtic language. I know there are several versions of Celtic, but the same goes for English, which is what the paragraph is about. I really just wanted to add the notion of 'English English' and/or 'British English'. That makes sense here, right? DirkvdM 06:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: English is predominant, with Gaelic (both Irish & Scots) and I think Cornish also found. - JVG 11:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I didn't say 'the Celtic language' but 'Celtic' (no article). To continue the comparison, could one say that in Northern Europe Scandinavian is spoken? I'd say so. Still, which languages are spoken in the British Isles should maybe be reserved for that article. DirkvdM 07:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

text: DirkvdM you said "the two languages". English is one language ergo you imply that, there being one other language mentioned, Celtic must also be a language. It's not, it's a family of languages. The statement is in essence inaccurate. Bandraoi 08:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, yes, of course, silly me. But now I wonder if one can call English a language. In the British Isles alone there are quite a few versions, but worldwide there is much more variation. Then again, I don't really want to get caught up in a discussion about what constitutes a language - definitions are pretty vague and therefore more politically inspired I believe. DirkvdM 09:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

text: It is incorrect, as there really isn't anything called "Celtic" which is spoken.  There's English, Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish, and possibly some Irish Gaelic.  Gaelic and Welsh are related, for certain, but then so are English and German.  Your sentence does imply two languages, English and Celtic, not a variety of Englishes and a variety of Celtics.  Perhaps the term English English does exist (I am neither a sociologist nor an anthropologist), but so do Welsh English and Highland English.  The two sentences are misleading and, ultimately, the article is improved for not having them. Sam Korn 00:22, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this is somewhat academic since this is not the right article for this, but still, two things. First, there is even an article on English English. Secondly, on a bus to Ireland I heard someone make a remark about how Gaelic is pronounced in different parts of the Isles; in Ireland 'Gaylic', in Scotland 'Garlic' and in Wales 'Gillic'. Just a bit of trivia. Is it true, though? DirkvdM 07:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there is supposedly a dialect English English, though I have never heard anyone use it.  Gaelic is not spoken in Wales: Cymraeg is.  I think your point says more about accents than about languages!  Sam Korn 17:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: Can anyone who speaks Welsh confirm or deny the explanation of the name Lloegr as "the lost country"? (I don't think it does actually mean that, but I'm not a native speaker.) 66.92.237.111 03:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lloegr 

message: There is a discussion about merging United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland into United Kingdom. If you would like to contribute, please do so at: Talk:United_Kingdom.
Regards Bobblewik 13:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A merge to reduce the permutations of articles 

message: There is an ongoing discussion at Talk:United Kingdom about the creation of a diagram that explains the historical evolution of the states in the British Isles. I suggest that this diagram be included on the terminology page, replacing much of the text from the history section Robdurbar 00:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline of British Isles States

message: What was the reason for removing "Pom" from the list of slang terms for Britons? Mucky Duck 12:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slang Terms 

message: I wonder if some brave soul would like to undertake adding an explanation about the Isle of Man & the Channel Islands to this article? - that is, to explain how they are dependancies of the British Crown, but not part of the UK? --feline1 19:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Status of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man 

message: The Republic of Ireland has not been part of the British Isles since 1922, i am not sure why people have an issue with this. There seems to be no problem with every other country in the world who have acheived independance from the British Empire so why not Ireland?? 
The British Isles is a term to describe the lands that make up Great Britain, Ireland is not in Great Britain.
You Cannot just use geography as an argument for this, a nations history come into play also, Is Portugal part of the spanish peninsula? Is Cananda a state of the USA? --Murphyweb 07:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Portugal is part of the Spanish Peninsula. Thank you for providing me with a counterargument. :) I don't get the Canada-bit, though. Anyway, it's all explained in the article and the first sentence makes clear that there is a lot of confusion about it and then that gets restated again in the intro, so I'd say it's clear enough that one should be careful what to call what here and that opinions differ. Better to include all opinions than to erase one in favour of the other. DirkvdM 07:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Portugal is located on a peninsula called the Iberian peninsula. Canada is not located in the United States, but rather in North America, Northern America and the two Americas. The Philippines is both the name of a sovereign state and an archipelago located within the much larger Malay archipelago. These are all geographical names. If there are alternative names for the archipelago known as the British Isles, please advise. Also, see Persian Gulf naming dispute and Sea of Japan naming dispute for useful comparisons. Thanks. //Big Adamsky 08:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Murphyweb, your belligerant attitude sucks. If you actually READ the article, you will see it is sensitively and dispassionately written, and explains the distinctions between geographical and political entities, and how the names arose historically over *millenia*. Using the geographical term "The British Isles" to refer to all the islands in the group, including the island of Ireland, is the most common usage and therefore must certain be listed as so in the article. The article already explains what toes this treads on. I suggest you dry your eyes. If you vandalize the article, others will only revert it back.--feline1 10:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Well perhaps you hadn't noticed, but over the past few centuries, a great deal of people in the island of Ireland *have* gotten rather upset along these lines. But thankfully now Bono has descended to earth to bring world peace, so we can all relax.--feline1 11:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: That doesn't necessarily follow.  You wouldn't call the Manx Irish, although they're located in the Irish Sea.  The same goes for people who live in the Indian Ocean etc. etc. --Ryano 11:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Aye - actually, the term tends to be applied to all the pre-Roman, pre-Anglo-Saxon, pre-Norman inhabitants of the British Isles is "Britons", not "British". Often the public will use the word "Celts" as well, but archeologists don't like this much.--feline1 12:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me, in this context, Celt is actually much better than Briton. Linguistically Celtic covers both Brythonic and Goidelic. (Welsh is Brythonic and Celtic, but not Goidelic.) Laurel Bush 16:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: yes and what's more, watery tarts living in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! I mean I went around, claiming I was an British Emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away! But having said this, "Celt" is a bit of a moot term, as these people never called themselves "Celts", the word just comes from one bit in Herodotus in reference to a tribe on the Danube... --feline1 16:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry? Was that Ynglis? Or Scots?. Or what?. And was that delicious reference to 'watery tarts' about someone in Somerset? Or Wales? Or what? Laurel Bush 17:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Monty Python and the Holy Grail, you Philistine! LOL  But yes, I gather that nobody really knows whether or not the pre-Roman indiginous people of the British Isles were displaced/invaded by/ blended with "Celts" from mainland Europe (bring their celtic art and languages) or were there all along for the last 6 millenia, and it's just that their brethern in mainland Europe got wiped out by the Romans et al, so it's only in the Hebrides and Donegal that there's any left...--feline1 17:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please remove Ireland from here or i will do it myself.. 

message: To replace the various notes at the top of the pages that link here, I have created a template under 'Template:British Isles (terminology)'. It looks like this at the moment:
Template:British Isles (terminology)
Robdurbar 12:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: This claim (now reverted) doesn't seem to be supported by the facts.  A quick Google search  throws up plenty of references to "British Isles" in Oireachtas debates.  In any case the term has no "official" status, it's merely a geographic descriptive term. --Ryano
: If you read the actual references which you have provided; the British Isales is generally referring to the UK, Isle of Man and Channel Islands - NOT Ireland. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.40.155.137 (talk • contribs) 18:46, 23 February 2006 UTC.
:: Um, no.
::: "Is the Minister aware also that the unit has been lying idle for the past two years, like the Berkeley Court, that it is the second busiest hospital in the Western Health Board region and that it is one of the busiest for its size in the British Isles?" 
::: "Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Health and Children the plans, if any, he has to amend adoption legislation to provide adopted people with easier access to their original birth certificates which is the norm throughout the rest of the British Isles including Northern Ireland as recommended by the Adoption Board in its annual reports over the past number of years." 
::: "The case has been made many times in favour of complete derating of all agricultural land. There is complete derating of all agricultural land in the Six Counties and in Britain. We are mainly an agricultural economy and we are within the framework of the British Isles."
::: "There is freedom to travel from eastern Europe to the British Isles and throughout the Mediterranean countries. In such circumstances, it is possible that one parent might live in Italy, for example, and the other might live in Ireland." 
:: I don't think any of the above could be interpreted as referring to only the UK, Isle of Man and Channel Islands.--Ryano 10:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim that Irish Government "does not recognise the term British Isles" 

message: The only legal term recognised by both the UK and Irish governments when referring to the Archipeligo is 'these Islands.' Strand Three, The Agreement, 10/04/1998. There are many precedents for geographical terms (e.g. Benelux, Central Europe, North America etc.) being legally and politically recognised - the 'British Isles' is not one of them. The term is not used in legislation in either jurisdiction. 
The term 'British' Isles is not purely geographic no matter how hard one may attempt to protest that it is - it has geo-political implications. Ireland is NOT a British Isle, however, it is a part of the same archipeligo as Great Britain. The term 'British' Isles is unacceptable when referring to Ireland under any circumstances; whether they be purely geographic, political, legal etc. 
One cannot escape the English language definition of British i.e. of or relating to the island of Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or to its people or language. Under this basic definition how can Ireland be deemed a British Isle? It is a complete non sequitur. Ireland is not British thus is not a part of the 'British' Isles. Ireland's identity is Irish and European - it certainly is not British.
Also, I have removed the reference to non-usage of term in Ireland being determined by political viewpoint and replaced it with: The term is deemed anachronistic in Ireland (Republic of) and use of same is generally avoided. 
It's non-usage in Ireland is not determined by a particular political viewpoint, unless being an Irish citizen is a political viewpoint. Since merely being born on the island of Ireland entitled one to Irish Citizenship up until the Irish Nationality & Citizenship Act, 2004; I do not believe that Irish Citizenship constitutes a political stance. Iolar Iontach
::Yes thanks there for your hysterical anonymous Republican trolling.--feline1 18:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's full of emotive language and value-judgements. This is a sober and dare I say it sligtly anal wikipedia article which attempts to dispasionately clarify some confusing terminolgy, not your politcal soapbox. And please leave a proper signature for your comments.--feline1 21:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think anyone is saying that "British Isles" is a legal term or holds any particular status.  The fact that "these Isles" is used in the Good Friday Agreement doesn't confer any legal status on that term either.  The only question is whether either of the terms has currency as a descriptive term for the geography in question.  Personally I quite like "these Isles" and hope that it catches on, however until then we must acknowledge that "British Isles" has greater currency. --Ryano 11:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The term certainly has some geopolitical connotations - but then ALL geographical terms do, to a certain extent. As for 'these isles' - I like it but unfortunately its not much use when you're not, well, here! Robdurbar 12:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal Term 

message: The reference to non-usage in Ireland being determined by political stance was extremely biased, untrue and definitely PoV thus has been changed again. Its non-usage in Ireland is apolitical. Iolar Iontach
: If you were trying to make it less POV your replacement text wasn't much of an improvement "The term British Isles is deemed anachronistic in Ireland (Republic of) and use of same is generally avoided.".  Do you have any sources to back this up?  I have lived in Ireland all my life and have never heard anyone object to the use of the term "British Isles" as anachronistic.    In any case, the original statement, a version of which I have re-instated, refers not to "British Isles" but to all the names used for the various territories.  It is hard to dispute that usage of these names is not politically influenced in many cases, e.g. "Northern Ireland" vs "Six Counties". --Ryano 15:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "determined by political stance" 

message: Somebody at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:British_Isles claimed that all the British channels use the term "British Isles" when they are talking about the weather in Ireland and Britain. Nobody has supported this assertion. I have not heard the BBC, ITV or even the tabloidesque Sky News use the term on the service they provide to Ireland. I've checked the online versions of these three stations for today's weather. None of them use the term "British Isles": ; http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/ukweather/; http://www.itv-weather.co.uk/; http://www.sky.com/skynews/weather.
Years ago they might have, but in my lifetime I have not heard them use the term. Does anybody have evidence to the contrary? Otherwise my alteration to the article should stand.El Gringo 16:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the other hand: BBC second and third paragraphs (worringly here they go on to say 'and even in a small country like the british isles'!!!!); Met office page on 'British Isles Rainfall; there are numerous other sources in google if you search 'british isles' and 'weather' Robdurbar 19:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: British weather forecasts

message: The reason I've removed this sentence from the intro is:
* Irish people? All of them? Even the Ulster Unionists?? Its an over generalization to claim that all Irish people reject a term. Even the evidence from Wikipedia talk pages - which is generally considred bad form to use - is only of that small minority who've complained about it
* The article explains sufficiently the number of problems and critcisms of the term
* Such a claim cannot be made unsourced 
Robdurbar 19:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'This term is also rejected by Irish people'

message: There is apparently a great deal of (largely unreferenced) controversy over usage and meaning of toponyms as evidenced by Traditional counties of the British Isles, British Islands, British Isles, British Isles (terminology), Britain and Ireland, Islands of the North Atlantic and Brythonic or Anglo-Celtic Archipelago). Why not merge articles with quasi-identical content, and then provide mutual links to the articles that arguably and evidently do not mean the same thing. //Big Adamsky 18:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I started this article because there was a need to give a good quick overview of what's what in the British Isles. That's the first overview. As long as that bit is at the top of an obvious page I don't really care to much, although I'd prefer to keep the article. It seems a useful and logical collection of info. DirkvdM 17:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think any talk on this is generally going on at Talk:British Isles; this is where the template directs you. Robdurbar 18:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge and interlink

message: I added a self made Venn diagram (based on the one found in external links) to the intro.  right now, the image pretty much looks bad.  someone with better software, itd be sweet if you could go ahead and remedy that situation.  I do think the diagram is usefull in the introduction, especially for us visual learners.  but it should be tidied up a bit, at the very least.--jfg284 you were saying? 21:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It provides an interesting and alternative way of looking at the concepts, as far as I can tell. Robdurbar 09:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Well geographically - but not politically - speaking there kinda is - e.g. the Shetland Isles - but that is a well-spotted weakness, yes. Anyway that could be fixed in the diagram? Robdurbar 11:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good spot.  I didn't even think of that. Hmmm...possible solutions?  A note in the caption might explain it, but that seems kind of weak.  Hmmm.--jfg284 you were saying? 15:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Venn diagram 1

message: The article says Many encyclopaedia in use today prefer the terminology 'British Isles and Ireland' . Quite apart from the missing "s" on "encyclopedia", I don't actually believe this for one moment, as it makes no sense. Whoever wrote it was presumably thinking of something like "Britain and Ireland". If no one can provide a citation for "many encyclopedias", it ought to be removed. TharkunColl 16:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, good  call Robdurbar 17:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsubstantiated claim

message: I have added a definition for Irish that incorporates the language; citizenship; and adjective. In common parlance the term has ambiguity attached to it - often people in the UK regard the Northern Irish as Irish irrespective of their citizenship. "British" - a less ambiguous term is defined, thus it is appropriate to define "Irish." I think that both adjectives that refer to the sovereign states should be defined. The argument that English and Welsh aren't defined is irrelevant - neither refer to sovereign states nor are they confusing terms. Iolar Iontach 12:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but I think British is only incldued because of its use in the term 'British Isles'. In the end, Irish is not a confusing or potentially offensive term, in the way that Brtish is. Robdurbar 13:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that a Northern Irish/British loyalist would see it that way. Feel free to go to a pub on the Shankill Rd, and tell everyone that they're Irish!! Iolar Iontach 13:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of Irish

message: Where do places like the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar fit into this? I imagine they are part of the UK but not of the British Isles; which makes the Venn diagram in the article slightly misleading as it shows the UK as being strictly within the British Isles. --Rhebus 22:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, they're not part of the UK either - see British overseas territory Robdurbar 09:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Falklands and other overseas territories and dependencies