Talk:Armenian language/Archive 1

message: To all interested in the subject: There is plenty of reliable information available. At the moment, the article is in a rather appaling state, subject to edititing without cites nor sources and regularly the center of dispute and edit war. I've given up on watching it. IMHO it'd be advisable to request the given material and to edit the article on that basis. --tickle me 17:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ARMENIAN LANGUAGE: RELIABLE INFORMATION

message: "A similar script is used for the unrelated Georgian language."
I thought the Armenian-Georgian alphabet connexion has been debunked. What is this sentence referring to? ("similar"). --Menchi 06:57, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Armenian-Georgian alphabet connexion

message: I moved the demo-/ethnographic info from this page to the more appropriate Demographics of Armenia page.  Ehgil 23:31, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  demographic info 

message: This is what is in the article at this time:
"Classical Armenian distinguishes seven vowels: a, i, schwa, open e, closed e, o, and u (transcribed as a, i, e, e, ?, o, and ow, respectively)."
The order of those seems wrong, especiallyh where the schwa is. -dveej
:The order seems to have been updated, but I'm still wondering about that sentence.  It now reads: "Classical Armenian distinguishes seven vowels: a, i, schwa, open e, closed e, o, and u (transcribed as a, i, ə, e, ē, o, ow and u respectively)."  There are eight vowels in that transcription.  As the u is a later addition, does it not belong? JordeeBec 18:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The section on phonology is very, very basic compared to similar sections in other language articles. I've replaced the English-like phonetic transcriptions with IPA (based on information from http://www.omniglot.com/writing/armenian.htm - I don't actually know Armenian, please correct any mistakes!) and slapped a  tag on it. Hairy Dude 17:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vowels 

message: As Hans K. Vogt sums up in the 1997 Britannica, "Whereas Old Armenian was rather close to ancient Greek in many respects, Modern Armenian is
typologically much closer to Turkish". This claim should be contested since Persia (modern Iran) and Armenia have been neighbors and coexisted for 2500 years, whereas Turkish Language is a relatively newcomer to the region (around 1000 A.D.). {bold=deleted}
Contesting the claim infers only an assumption, which is not backed up authoritatively here. Besides, the reasoning is logically unpersuasive: if it does prove anything at all linguistically, the proximity makes a closer relationship with Persia more likely than it does towards Turkey - only to the layman anyway. What ephemeral geographical ties with the Greek mainland existed, had been severed after osman invasion, and older possible phases of proximity to proto Greek people are even more distant. The invasion was followed by the cited 1000 years of neighbouring or ethnically mixed regions, which makes Vogt's claim not so implausible, as he is contrasting ancient Greek with modern Armenian. Arguably, modern Armenian's linguistic state is more likely to be influenced by the last millenium's happenings than by preceding eras and, not so arguably, Armenian relations with Turkey have been closer than those with Persia in the last 1000 years - lastly much to Armenia's detriment. Anyway, please feel free to contest, I'm just inferring and understand Armenian sensibilities on the issue, but please do research and cite sources.
On a somewhat unrelated note: a layman and non Armenian speaker myself, I just listened to some Armenian sound files before reading the article and couldn't help to be -unexpectedly- remembered of Greek ...and Turkish. --Tickle me 04:22, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Is modern Armenian typologically much closer to Turkish?

message: Is two times vandalism of the same page, enough for a block? I really have enough of POV pusher vandals. :( Fadix 22:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I just blocked him for 24 hours. AFAICT that's a unique, static IP for one person, so it shouldn't affect innocent users. --Angr/ 07:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  68.101.111.161 is vandalizing the talk page 

message: I just came in here to try to resolve the conflict. I am on a wikibrake right now, and I will remain in a wikibrake for some times. I just am posting, to present a solution to the conflict.
I will be ready to email PDF formats of articles, and I propose that new changes should be made based on those articles so that people could agree for the time being, and having sources that those participating in the changes have access to, helps.
Here are the articles I suggest to email to those interested. I am just listing this for now, I will add more when I come back. Also note that for now, I am not reffering to articles published after the 80s(two exceptions though), because of copyright issues, even thought I will only be emailing them. I may maybe in the future propose to do so, for some articles which I consider important to be mentioned.
Also, if anyone find a title for an article on google that he/she thinks will be important for this article, email your request to me, and I'll see if I can get it. Regards (for the requests, if you want those articles emailed, request it by emailing me, thanks)
*Problems of Armenian Phonology I, by Werner Winter, Language, Vol. 30, No. 2  (Apr., 1954), pp. 197-201
*Problems of Armenian Phonology II, by Werner Winter, Language,  Vol. 31, No. 1  (Jan., 1955), pp. 4-8 
*Problems of Armenian Phonology III, by Werner Winter, Language,  Vol. 38, No. 3, Part 1  (Jul., 1962), pp. 254-262 
*On the Placing of Armenian, by J. Alexander Kerns; Benjamin Schwartz, Language, Vol. 18, No. 3  (Jul., 1942), pp. 226-228
*Is Armenian an Anatolian Language? by William M. Austin, Language, Vol. 18, No. 1  (Jan., 1942), pp. 22-25    
*The Etymology of Armenian ert'am by Charles R. Barton, Language,  Vol. 39, No. 4  (Oct., 1963), p. 620 
*'Initial' Indo-European */y/ in Armenian, by Robert Minshall, Language,  Vol. 31, No. 4  (Oct., 1955), pp. 499-503 
*Some Effects of the Hurro-Urartian People and Their Languages upon the Earliest Armenians by John A. C. Greppin; I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 111, No. 4  (Oct., 1991), pp. 720-730 
*The Position of Tocharian among the Other Indo-European Languages by Douglas Q. Adams, Journal of the American Oriental Society,   Vol. 104, No. 3  (Jul., 1984), pp. 395-402  
*The Indo-Hittite Hypothesis by E. H. Sturtevant, Language,  Vol. 38, No. 2  (Apr., 1962), pp. 105-110 
*Adjacency Parameters in Phonology by David Odden, Language, Vol. 70, No. 2  (Jun., 1994), pp. 289-330   
*Selected Studies in Indo-European Phonology, by Gordon Myron Messing, Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 56  (1947), pp. 161-232  
*Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian by I. M. Diakonoff, Journal of the American Oriental Society,  Vol. 105, No. 4  (Oct., 1985), pp. 597-603 
*The Armenian Aorist by G. Bonfante, Journal of the American Oriental Society,  Vol. 62, No. 2  (Jun., 1942), pp. 102-105 
*Mountain of Tongues: The Languages of the Caucasus by J. C. Catford, Annual Review of Anthropology, Vol. 6  (1977), pp. 283-314 
*Statistical Measurement of Linguistic Relationship by Alvar Ellegard, Language, Vol. 35, No. 2, Part 1  (Apr., 1959), pp. 131-156 
Fad (ix) 20:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will be ready to email PDF formats of articles...: Fine, I'll mail you. I had no intention to edit or rewrite the article, however, I'll eventually will replace the parts that need it most. Thanks for the comprehensive and well chosen listing. --tickle me 23:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict resolution 

message: ;I received Fadix' material. I'll send items of this list to anyone interested by mail as well (it's preferable to get them by me), either as single files or as a 32MB zip.
*'Initial' Indo-European y in Armenian.pdf (618 KB)
*Adjacency Parameters in Phonology.pdf (3.686 KB)
*Hurro-Urartian Borrowings in Old Armenian.pdf (1.067 KB)
*In Memoriam Hans Vogt .pdf (317 KB)
*Is Armenian an Anatolian Language.pdf (500 KB)
*Mountain of Tongues. The Languages of the Caucasus.pdf (3.360 KB)
*On the Placing of Armenian.pdf (413 KB)
*Problems of Armenian Phonology I.pdf (641 KB)
*Problems of Armenian Phonology II.pdf (624 KB)
*Problems of Armenian Phonology III.pdf (1.238 KB)
*Selected Studies in Indo-European Phonology.pdf (6.227 KB)
*Some Effects of the Hurro-Urartian People and Their Languages upon the Earliest Armenians.pdf (1.565 KB)
*Statistical Measurement of Linguistic Relationship.pdf (2.972 KB)
*The Armenian Aorist.pdf (852 KB)
*The Etymology of Armenian ert'am.pdf (120 KB)
*The Indo-Hittite Hypothesis.pdf (740 KB)
*The Position of Tocharian among the Other Indo-European Languages.pdf (1.264 KB)
*Validity of Glottochronology.pdf (8.665 KB)
--tickle me 21:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict resolution - addendum 

message: A quick comment - sorry if duplicated, didn't have time to read all the discussion:
`Armenian also has many other unique letters not heard in other languages. There are two different "k"s; as well as a letter sounding like a cross between "p" and "b"; two "r" letters, one pronounced with a rolling "r" sound; the letter "gh" pronounced like the French "r"; "kh" a harder pronunciation also found in many Middle Eastern languages; as well as the letters "ts", "tz", "dz", "dch", "uh" like the "a" sound in the word "arrange"; and many more. These are just a few examples that make Armenian a rich and unique language.'
This whole paragraph is false as none of the sounds described are 'unique' in the sense of being exclusive to Armenian. Forgive me if I am wrong, but these sounds are shared with Georgian are they not?
:Yes, the individual consonants are not unique, although the entire Armenian phonological palate is quite distinctive. I'll try to rewrite the information on the sounds in Armenian with reference to the International Phonetic Alphabet. — Gareth Hughes 19:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'unique' nature of Armenian phonology 

message: A guideline on whether or not to italicize Armenian (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian in Wikipedia 

message: I only speak English, but can I still contribute?--Craig Thomasian 05:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  English 

message: Is this worth adding to the article? It is not mentioned on hers, I found it via Google:
"A renowned American anthropologist, Margaret Mead became famous for her studies of the cultures of the Pacific Islands, Russia, and the United States. At one point, she advocated the use of Armenian as a universal language, in part because it includes the sounds of almost all the world's languages and because speakers could be found throughout the world."
:I think we can place it under a new Trivia section. Serouj 04:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Margaret Mead

message: The article mentions the phrase "Yes sirum em qez", but the consonant table does not give a pronunciation for Q. If this is because of variable orthography, the article should be made consistent. 84.70.192.140 21:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Q 

message: I removed Tacentral, but I saw Tacentral link in Urartu and Nairi pages.I have Artak Movsisyan's book, and I read in his book that he showed a lot of Sanskrit words are in Armenian. Also, 80% of Grabar he mentions is in Armenian. Angine 18:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess who added those links? Artak Movsisyan is not a reliable or a neutral source thus he cannot be used anywhere in Wikipedia. Pseudo-scientific and absurd theories are not encyclopedic. There are no "Sanskrit" words in Armenian, there are Indo-Aryan loanwords in Armenian by way of Iranian languages, notably Parthian and Middle Persian.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Wonderful. We're all very happy for you. I know Klingonese.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: When a user is blocked from here, HE IS BLOCKED!!! Get the hell out!!! No one doubt you are Ararat arev who's been already blocked. Fad (ix) 21:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Angine, to avoid any future conflict, please try to read and use academic books that are used in the the Armenian language programs of Western universities such as UCLA.  Otherwise, the material likely cannot be considered a reliable source in the context of WP:VERIFY.  Thanks and keep up the work.  Serouj 21:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rigarding my edit 

message: Why the region of georgia Javaxeti is mantion seperately from Georgia? --Politologia (talk) 15:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Georgia-Javaxeti 

message: Indefinite full protection of a Wikipedia article simply isn't acceptable. I've unprotected it and will keep it on my watchlist. If the banned user returns as an IP, the page can be (temporarily!) semi-protected. If he returns with a user account, the account can be blocked. —Angr 15:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotecting 

message: Just in case it's not clear, I decided to post here a paragraph from the entry on Armenian in the Encyclopedia of Language & Linguistics:
Armenian belongs to the Indo-European family, and is commonly believed to be most closely related to Greek and Indo-Iranian. (For instance, all three share a prohibitive particle *me: (Greek me:, Sanskrit ma:, Armenian mi) and the imperfect third-person singular augment *e- (as in Greek e-pher-e, Sanskrit a-bhar-a-t, Armenian e-ber ‘(s)he/it carried’). Many more such parallels are discussed in Clackson, 1994.) Because of its many loans from various Middle Iranian languages, especially Parthian, Armenian was thought to be an Iranian dialect until Heinrich Hübschmann demonstrated in 1875 that it was a distinct branch of the Indo-European family. Scholars disagree on how the Armenians came to historical Armenia, the eastern half of present-day Turkey centered around Lake Van and Mount Ararat; some believe they came southward from the Russian steppe, others believe they and the Hittites came eastward from Greece, and others suggest they moved only a short distance from an original Indo-European homeland in the Transcaucasus. It is most likely that this settlement occurred in the second millennium b.c. The earliest mentions of the Armenians occur in the inscriptions of the Achaemenid Persian king Darius (6th century b.c.) and the Greek historian Herodotus (5th century b.c.)
As you can see, the current state of scholarship is that Armenian is a distinct branch of Indo-European, which, while borrowing words from Iranian languages, is not an Iranian language. It is closest to the Hellenic and Iranian branches of IE, but the relationship looks closer than it really is because of borrowings into Armenian from those two branches. — Gareth Hughes 18:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moreover, the bare fact that Armenian shares (unborrowed) words with Iranian languages and Greek is uninteresting and irrelevant to the paragraph in question. All Indo-European languages share words with each other. You might as well say that Armenian shares words with Germanic and Celtic, too. —Angr 18:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some examples of shared words 
English: door, Russian: Dver, Armenian: dur
English: cat, Russian: koshka, Armenian: katu
English: light, Spanish: lus, Armenian: luys
As you can see there are similarities VartanM 18:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: cat is a borrowing in all those languages, not a descendent of an Indo-European root. --Krsont 23:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian's relation to to other IE branches 

message: I noticed that at the beginning of the article, it lists the name of the Armenian language in Armenian to be "hayeren lezu." When I was studying abroad in Armenia, my language professor at YSU said that this was incorrect. The phrase "hayeren lezu," is redundant, as the suffix -eren attached to the end of the word already means language. So, the phrase "hayeren lezu" means "Armenian language language." Furthermore, the word "hayeren" is a noun, and as such cannot act as an adjective modifying the word "lezu" according to the grammar of the Armenian language. Armenian is more strict than English in this regard, and in my experience, nouns rarely (if ever) act as adjectives in the Armenian language. The two proper ways to refer to the language are simply "hayeren" or "hayots lezu." I looked this up in my big green Armenian dictionary (Asmangulian and Hovhanissian, "Hayastan" Publishing House, Yerevan: 1984), which confirmed that these are proper ways of referring to the language in Armenian. I only have training in Eastern Armenian, so I cannot vouch for Western Armenian, but I know that in Eastern Armenian "hayeren lezu" is bad grammar. 70.162.244.251 05:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct name of Armenian Language 

message: I have included information on Armenian dialects from Adjarian.  Some cities, I have not been able to identify the modern name, such as Khian.  Azalea pomp 03:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adjarian's Armenian dialects Source 

message: As this is the Armenian language page, is more than one Latin root necessary to show cognates.  It's a bit overkill.  Also, please include complete information such as vowel length.  Also, always use standard transliterations for languages which do not use the Latin script. -- Azalea pomp (talk) 21:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin Words 

message: Why is it that the letter hiun in the Wikipedia articles is almost always transcribed as w, and ts' as c'? For example, the transcription of the armenian word name is written "anown" or and goodbye as "C'tesowt'iown". Doesn't anyone else feel these to be incredible misleading transcriptions at least as far as pronunciation? "u" or "oo" would be much better replacements for "ow" and "iu" for "iow". KaraiBorinquen  —Preceding comment was added at 00:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think all of you are misunderstanding some things.  IPA is used to transcribe a language phonetically or phonologically.  The ISO and Library of Congress transliterations are used to transliterate/romanize written Armenian, letter by letter.  Since this is an encyclopedic article which uses academic sources, we use a transliteration from an official body used in academia.  Phonetic/Phonological transcriptions are only needed for the relevant sections of the article.  Azalea pomp (talk) 21:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My belief that the ISO transliteration for Armenian is outdated and impractical notwithstanding, the article as is is entirely misleading. Anyone without a prior understanding of the Armenian alphabet/language will read the pronunciations of these words to be something they aren't. In doing so it compromises the integrity of the article. The truth of the matter is that ւ  is only practically used as a "w" sound for foreign words and names, and the rest of the time acts as a "u" modifier. It also provides the false perception that ու  and յու   are dipthongs and tripthongs when in reality they are only one and two letters, respectively.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.110.204.129 (talk) 06:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthography Question 

message: The number of people speaking Armenian is 5.5 million according to the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, a trusted publication of linguistics. You can't always pull numbers from the internet where did you get 6.7 million from? You cannot make up these numbers, the most accurate way to get it is from a university publication book. So stop changing it!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.151.124.66 (talk) 13:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the source for the number: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hye  The Ethnologue has the number as 6,723,840.  The Ethnologue is used by academic linguistics.  Also, the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language has a copyright date of what 1998? Azalea pomp (talk) 22:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I did the country profile says: Armenia. 2,991,360, but the language article says: Armenian [hye] 3,399,903 in Armenia (2001 Johnstone and Mandryk). Population total all countries: 6,723,840. That is more likely implied speakers as the section is for the Armenian language.  Their numbers don't quite add up though.  The Ethnologue divides by language, not ethnic group.  Ethnologue articles will often state: x number of ethnic group and y number of speakers for that ethnic group.  Also, the Armenian diaspora would be larger than 6.7 million.  In any event, a 1998 book would be outdated for the number of speakers. Azalea pomp (talk) 22:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of people speaking Armenian 

message: I will have to check the newest version of the Ethnologue to see if they have new accurate numbers.  The online version is an older version.  Also, as nice as the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language is, it is 10 years old and thus the numbers would not be accurate for today. Azalea pomp (talk) 17:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Language Numbers Source Needed 

message: From what I've gathered so far, the Modern Eastern Armenian voiceless unaspirated stops are indeed glottalised, but the loudness of the ejective quality varies. In most dialects, including the standard, the glottalisation is barely audible, though relatively best in the affricates. The further you venture north in Armenia, the louder the glottalisation is. In Armenian dialects in Georgia, it is particularly clearly audible. But still, I have read that even the glottal quality of the Georgian ejectives is not perceived by everyone and they are often mistaken for simple voiceless stops. Personally, I can hear the Georgian ejectives clearly, as clearly as those in Amharic, but have trouble with the (standard) Armenian ones.
Generally, though, it is said that Caucasian ejectives are not as loud as ejectives in the languages of the Americas. Certainly, Mayan languages have clearly audible ejectives, from what I've heard myself.
The more notable ejectives of the northern Armenian dialects would not be surprising, given the proximity of, or even continued bilinguality in, Georgian. Ejectives are an areal feature - I have heard that they can even be found in Northern Kurdish (i. e., Kurmanji in Turkey) and Southwestern Turkish dialects, that is, in an area where Armenian was once widely spoken, in Ossetic, in Kumyk, and (in the central northwest of the Caucasus, in the general area of Vladikavkaz and Pjetigorsk) even certain Kosak varieties of Russian!
Whether already medieval Armenian had ejective stops is unknown, though at least if they were present in Middle Armenian, if not also Classical/Old Armenian (given its general high typological similarity to Old Georgian, especially in the phonological system), it might help to understand the Western Armenian consonant shifts. An ejective might become some sort of implosive before passing to a voiced stop (and since a preglottalised voiced stop sounds very similar to an implosive, I suspect this is what Beekes had in mind when he suggested that proto-Indo-European *D was in fact *['D] in his introduction, and possibly elsewhere). It must be taken in account, though, that individual dialects exhibit various other shifts and mergers unlike those in the two standard dialects; so the whole matter is more complicated and I don't have the necessary overview of Armenian dialectology.
As an aside, the voiced quality of the Georgian mediae is not phonologically distinctive and can be missing or reduced/partial, much like in German, for example; the missing glottalisation and aspiration are already enough. Given that old voiced stops became unvoiced in Western Armenian, this might be a relevant observation. Since the voiced stops became aspirated voiceless stops, this might be the reason for the idea that they might have originally have been voiced aspirated stops.
If one knows about the Armenian ejectives and the Georgian system of occlusives that is not primarily based on the voiced/voicedlessness distinction, one understands Gamq'relidze's and Ivanov's glottalic hypothesis a lot better - or at least where Gamq'relidze draws his inspiration from. (I do not endorse the hypothesis, almost all the arguments for it do not hold water, though it may help understanding certain restraints on PIE root structure, there may be a few suggestive Italo-Celtic sound laws, and I can't understand why PIE *t is [d] at the ends of words, though the glottalic theory doesn't really help either: going from what I know from Armenian, one should expect [dh] or even simply [t]!)
I just noticed that unlike this article, Eastern Armenian does acknowledge the ejectives! What the ... Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes...  This article needs to be updated to reflect the ejectives.  Also, the Eastern Armenian language and Western Armenian language articles (as well as the article on Traditional Armenian orthography need to be updated to reflect the fact that in Classical Armenian ejectives likely did not exist (according to my investigations).  Serouj (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I've heard, the Jerusalem dialect, which branched off very early and is therefore hard to classify (but usually under Western Armenian, I think), does feature ejectives. This seems to indicate that at the time of the separation of the Jerusalem dialect Armenian did have ejectives, so I would be cautious. Unless we find some good source with an explicit statement either way, we should be careful with claims about the precise phonetics of an ancient language. Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Aramaic language#Historical sound changes mentions that Aramaic dialects in the Caucasus have replaced the emphatics with ejectives too, confirming the areal nature of the feature. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ejectives 

message: No notice was placed here that this image has been nominated for deletion. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 22:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Other images used on this page may also have been nominated -- please check them all by clicking on them to see if there is a deletion notification on the image page.  If there is, use the link that takes you to "this image's entry" to comment on the nomination for deletion. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 00:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image nominated for deletion 

message: The article is missing some useful and informative details on a smaller group of dialects belonging to the Northern Armenian division of the Armenian language, but has developed outside of the traditional Armenian homelands (the Northern dialect was in the Caucasian mountain ranges in Republic of Georgia) after the first wave of ethnic Armenian refugees settled throughout Europe from the 10th to the late 18th centuries AD. About 5 dialects of Northern Armenian are said to exist and spoken by at least 100,000 Armenians in sporadic communities in Europe and North America. Here is the compiled directory I came up with: 
* 1. Irlandhyren/Celtahyren - In Ireland, where only one known speaker has compiled a vocabulary listing for linguists in the 1990's and perhaps 100 or more fluent in the Irish version of Northern Armenian. About 5,000 Irish Armenians or Irlandehayes live in Ireland, the United Kingdom and elsewhere.
* 2. Canadohyeren/Quebecehyeren - In Canada by 1,000 to 2,000 able to read or speak it in the country, plus a sub-dialect in the Armenian community of Quebec influenced by the French-Canadian dialects of French.
* 3. Norvegaehyeren/Vikingehyeren - Somehow, ethnic Armenians in Scandinavia and northern Germany established this kind of Northern Armenian, but less than 100 are known to continually use it, named for either Norway, Sweden or the Vikings of Denmark.
* 4. Romano-Armenian/Latin Armenian was established by ethnic Armenians living in Italy, France, Spain and Portugal under linguistic influences of the Romance languages, but not as heavily Latinized and about 500 fluent speakers remain. 
* And 5. Aravesh or the Armenian American dialect is spoken by 200 to 300 Armenians living in the USA, mainly in the Fresno, California area as most 2nd and 3rd-generation Americans of Armenian heritage have lost contact with their ancestral language and adapted the English language.  
I hope there could be additions of the Northern Armenian dialects in future edits of the Armenian language article, although less than 2 percent of the Armenian language is represented by the "third division" in contrast to the larger Eastern and more dispersed Western dialects. + 71.102.32.144 (talk) 12:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Northern Armenian dialects are located in the Armenian dialects area such as: Tbilisi (Havlabar quarter) and others: Nor Nakhichevan, Rostov-on-Don, Stavropol, Krasnodar, Dnipropetrovsk, Anapa, Maykop, Taganrog, Prymorsk, Novocherkassk, Dneprovskaya, Poland, Bukovina, Transylvania, Hungary.  What has not been included are some other dialects of the Armenian diaspora.  If you have academic sources for any of these include them.  Are most of the Armenian groups from Ireland and Scandinavia settled from after 1900, surely not from the 1500s or 1700s? Azalea pomp (talk) 07:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northern Armenian dialects 

message: Country list information has been reformatted based on a continuing Wikipedia policy discussion being conducted elsewhere.  The summary of that discussion is that unrecognized "states" should be listed separately and in italics with a note that they are not recognized internationally. (Taivo (talk) 05:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perfect.  Thank you. Serouj (talk) 08:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nagorno-Karabakh 

message: I have created a new template (featuring St. Mesrobs) in hopes that it would do two things: eliminate the 'History of the Armenian language' template and create a visiually appealing link to other articles about the Armenian language. Any suggestions on how to improve the template, I'd be happy to receive ideas or feel free to modify it to improve it. I'd would be great if it was not removed, though.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Montyofarabia (talk • contribs) 06:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Modify the History of the Armenian language template; don't create a new template that does the same thing...  This article is in need of content, not a new template...  So please try to focus on content.  Serouj (talk) 06:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian language template. 

message: Adding the Armenian orthography to the table of Indo-European cognates is not a good idea.  Since the majority of people reading this don't know the Armenian alphabet, looking at the native orthography in a table where all forms should be equivalent is terribly distracting and obscures the issues rather than enlightening it.  It is standard practice in historical linguistics to use transliterated forms in lists of cognates.  That practice should be followed here as well.  (Taivo (talk) 12:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Great point...  I think also we should be using IPA.  The examples with Armenian script should go in the Traditional Armenian orthography and Reformed Armenian orthography articles. Serouj (talk) 16:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, then I'll add links to Wiktionary directly from romanizations, if that's OK. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 01:36, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Orthography 

message: Armenian is a typical example of a diasystem, i.e. single genetic language which has two or more standard forms. This sould be explained here.  Andreas  (T) 17:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diasystem 

message: According to this diff, spelling reform came after the standardization. It is still not clear if the spelling reform affected only Eastern Armenian or both. Also, if standardization of the language occurred in the 19th century, were ther two different standards created at that time? Since when have there been two different standard languages? If somebody knows the answers, they should be put into the articel.  Andreas  (T) 02:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling reform and standardization 

message: Adjarian on his map and text mentions other cities and towns where Armenian was spoken, but does not give them a dialect grouping.  I will try to find these and put perhaps a misc. dialects category for the table. Azalea pomp (talk) 01:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More dialects from Adjarian 

message: Classical<=>Soviet Orthography Converter  http://www.arak29.am/index.php?pt=5
Etymology http://www.envisionarmenia.com/etymology/
Traditional Orthography Primer  http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/
Western Armenian Language Textbook http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/  00:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Arak29 Tools to Resource links 

message: Classical<=>Soviet Orthography Converter  http://www.arak29.am/index.php?pt=5
Etymology http://www.envisionarmenia.com/etymology/
Traditional Orthography Primer  http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/
Western Armenian Language Textbook http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/  00:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Arak29 Tools to Resource links 

message: Classical<=>Soviet Orthography Converter  http://www.arak29.am/index.php?pt=5
Etymology http://www.envisionarmenia.com/etymology/
Traditional Orthography Primer  http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/
Western Armenian Language Textbook http://www.envisionarmenia.com/moodle2/  00:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Many (most?) of those resources require an "enrollment key" and external links to closed resources are discouraged in Wikipedia. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 10:21, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Arak29 Tools to Resource links 

message: How are you(formal) 
| Vonts ek ()
  Inch bes es  
Voxsusana (talk) 18:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Voxsusana, 28 June 2010 

message: I noticed that the text does not state agglutination, but in the categories agglutination is listed, and more then once :Category:Agglutinative_languages. Also, the article alludes to the change but does not explain why. Agglutination is a main trait of Morphology. Is the sentence Morphologically SOV?
Armenian script was extensively used for Kipchak language, there was a whole Kipchak literature in Armenian script, should not that be noted in the article? Maybe other peoples also used the script? What about other Caucasus tribes, did any of them used the Armenian script? There were 300 languages in the Caucasus, but only 5 scripts. Many of those tribes are described as illiterate, but if they used Armenian script, that would not be true. For example for the church records - births, marriages, deaths etc.
There was considerable Armenian population in Middle Age Poland, but present diasporas does not show Poland. What happened with those Armenians? I would appreciate if somebody who knows would share their knowledge. Barefact (talk) 08:35, 23 
July 2010 (UTC)
:re: Armenian script, this is already dealt with here:  Armenian alphabet#Use of the Armenian alphabet for other languages.
:re: Armenian population in Middle Age Poland, this issue is dealt with at Armenians and Armenian diaspora.  Andreas  (T) 13:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you so much, Andreas, it helps, the Armenian alphabet#Use of the Armenian alphabet for other languages and Armenians_in_Poland are very good for my level. Still, what about the morphology of the language? Were the Kurds the only Caucasians who adopted the Armenian script? And Poland is not listed in the diaspora boxes. Thanks, Barefact (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 questions: agglutination, Kipchak in Armenian, Armenian in Poland 

message: The Iranian theory is long outdated and no longer accepted by any mainstream linguist.  Standard texts on the IE languages explain why Armenian was thought to be Iranian and how it was discovered actually to be its own branch.  Citing linguists such as Franz Bopp (d 1867) as current support for the hypothesis is dishonest.  Neither does Lehmann support it: "Armenian stands in the sphere of the Aryan-Balto-Slavic languages between Iranian and Balto-Slavic." 
This minority theory that Armenian is a branch of Iranian cannot be presented as fact or as widely held.  The NPOV policy allows us to state that specific scholars, who must be named, support a minority theory.  The current edits  violate this policy.  If you wish to add further comments to the article please discuss them here.  Further reversions without consensus will be treated as edit warring and may be the cause for a suspension of editting privileges.μηδείς (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  The Iranian theory isn't even taught as an aside in historical linguistics classes.  Anyone who claims that the Iranian hypothesis is "the most current" is smoking something illegal in the U.S.  --Taivo (talk) 20:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Iranian theory is still ancient history.  The editor wanting it included used a link to a reader of 19th century linguistics as a reliable source.  Lehmann edited the reader, but nowhere sanctioned the Iranian hypothesis.  Indeed, the article that the link led to was the article by Hubschmann (spelling?) that showed Armenian was not Iranian.  --Taivo (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I agree.  One sentence if there is a reliable current source would be acceptable, but an entire section with no reliable sources is not.  --Taivo (talk) 23:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

text: It's not Lehmann who said this, but Hübschmann! 139 years ago! Pay attention to what "at present" means in context: In 1875, this was the best established and the prevailing view! Hübschmann says this right before he writes: "The aim of the following is to investigate whether it is tenable." and goes on to do exactly what had not been done before: disprove Müller's view. Talk about totally missing the point ... --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iranian theory 

message: The article lead is far too short and undetailed given the article's length.  Please read WP:LEAD.  I expanded the lead to add matters which are already covered in more detail in the article, namely its external and internal classification.  Aryamahasattva reverted the changes first as being "too detailed" - which is neither true nor compliant with WP:LEAD.  Then Aryamahasattva reverted the changes wholesale for nothing other than the accusation that my edits are not in good faith.  Nothing I have stated is controversial within the field.  That Armenian is related to Greek and Indo-Aryan was already stated - I simply added that the augment and other isoglosses is the reason for the classification.  And the internal classification of the third paragraph has nothing to do with edits by the blocked user - it is a summary of points made in the text of the article.  These undiscussed wholesale reversions with accusations of bad faith are edit warring.  If there is some specific issue that needs to be addressed such as Aryamahasattva's objection over the Renfrew citation they should be addressed here, not with a wholesale reversion.μηδείς (talk) 19:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: Nyisnotbad has again been blocked from editing this article, this time for 10 days, and has been placed on civility probation and been limited to one revert per page per week.  Violations of these restrictions should be reported to the edit warring board.μηδείς (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: User Nyisnotbad

message: I have put a 3RR warning on Aryamahasattva's account.  Eupator, the facts are suggestive re Aryamahasattva and the blocked user.  If you have any more evidence can you please act on it?μηδείς (talk) 17:07, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: User Aryamahasattva

message: Winfred Lehmann's chapter on Armenian  within his A Reader in Nineteenth Century Historical Indo-European Linguistics has been cited repeatedly as showing that Lehmann supports the view that Armenian is a branch of Iranian.  Not only is this a false summary of the text, which referes to Mueller's theory of the Iranian nature of Armenian only then to refute it, it is inaccurate in attributing that remark to Lehmann.  Lehmann's only contribution is the editor's introduction.  The chapter itself is a translation of Huebschmann, not Lehmann's own argument.μηδείς (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/books/read12.html Lehmann], [[Johann Heinrich Hübschmann|Hübschmann]] and [[Friedrich Müller (linguist)|Müller]] 

message: There are some grammar mistakes in the 'western armenian' dialect section. I was wondering if I could correct them.
190.245.78.94 (talk) 19:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: Please post the corrected version of the page here and I will make the changes to the article. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 22:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from 190.245.78.94, 10 October 2010 

message: The section currently mentions three early contacts, the Iranian, the Causcasian (largets subsection) and the supposed Anatolian.  Rather than a long cumbersome subhead mentioning all three, as if they were of equal status and exhaustive, I simply chose a neutral descriptor.
I would very much welcome well sourced and NPOV additions on the Iranian influence, since it is significant.  At this point I oppose a longer heading as cumbersome, but if the Iranian section were expanded, then we could give it and the Caucasian section their own subheads.μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  early contacts 

message: As far as I am aware other Greek authors did mention the Armenians, but Xenophon's is the oldest surviving mention of which I am aware.  Any more reversions without a rationale and consensus will be treated as edit warring.μηδείς (talk) 04:19, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  xenophon 

message: I have formally filed an edit warring complaint against User:Aryamahasattva here. 
μηδείς (talk) 06:13, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  AN3 complaint Aryamahasattva 

message: I happily welcome comments on the glottalic theory.  I fear the current comments are far to opaque for unfamiliar readers - can someone add an expansion needed banner rather than a clarification tag?
Also, unfortunately, the Sci Am ref to Diakonov fails.  The word aspirated is not once mentioned in the article and Armenian and glottalic do not come anywhere close to each other.  I don't question the underlying basis in fact, but the ref was added ad hoc and isn't useful for the claim.μηδείς (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, that article doesn't really deal with the glottalic theory.  I've replaced it with more reliable sources and clarified the wording to be more precise.  This article on the Armenian language doesn't need more text on Armenian's relation to the glottalic theory.  What is says is enough.  The theory is not widely accepted anymore, so putting any more emphasis on it would be a violation of WP:UNDUE or something like that.  It doesn't warrant more than the sentence it has.  --Taivo (talk) 11:18, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want more weight given to the idea, but rather that it be explained a little more clearly so that lay readers will have at least some idea of what is being talked about - not that it's an easy subject to condense!  I'll see what I can do later.μηδείς (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember that it's an outdated notion and if readers want more information, there is a convenient Wikilink that they can follow.  It's not critical information for this article.  --Taivo (talk) 16:51, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  glottalic theory 

message: My personal opinion is that a list of flags listing any nation in which a particular language is spoken is pretty much useless.  I would support limiting listing only countries where the language has a de jure or de facto official status or a significant minority status, above some reasonable percentage threshold.  This should be a matter of reasoned consensus and verifiable sources, not assertion of personal knowledge.μηδείς (talk)
:Reliable sources and not personal knowledge or other Wikipedia articles should always be the foundation.  --Taivo (talk) 04:54, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: On a side note, why is Azerbaijan's flag listed?  Armenians no longer reside in Azerbaijan, those that do are very few in number, can't openly claim to be Armenian, and speak either Azeri turkish and/or Russian.  I suggest it be removed.--Moosh88 (talk) 20:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources still list Armenian as being spoken in Azerbaijan.  That's what we go on.  --Taivo (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mind providing me a link to these 'reliable' sources?--Moosh88 (talk) 00:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ethnologue.  This has been discussed over and over again, ad nauseam, to the point of nausea. μηδείς (talk) 01:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a shocker.  Can you provide me a link to the relevent discussion?  I'd like to see what else is supporting including Azerbaijan as a country where Armenian is spoken--Moosh88 (talk) 03:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ethnologue, The Linguasphere Register, Sprachen der Welt, Classification and Index of the World's Languages, Atlas of the World's Languages, etc. all place Armenian speakers in Azerbaijan.  Indeed, I have yet to find a single source on my shelf that gives detailed distribution info on Armenian that does not include Azerbaijan.  That's a fairly large list of reliable sources, no matter what your personal feelings about Ethnologue are.  BTW, the best reliable sources are not "links", but actual, printed books.  --Taivo (talk) 02:24, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

text: On another note, Armenian is spoken not only in Israel but also in Palestine - the Armenian quarter in the old city of Jerusalem is East of the '67 armistice line.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.51.232 (talk) 15:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  flags 

message: Phoenecians8 has been repeatedly removing the word Balkan from the text's reference to the proposed Balkan Indo-European subgroup while adding Indo-Iranian to that group.  The reference to p 383 of Fortson from the article is available here.  It quite explicitly contrasts the older augment subgrouping to a newer Baltic one:
"At times it has been thought to form a group with Greek, Indo-Iranian, and Phrygian (section 10.4).  Another view that has been gaining prominence regards it as part of a "Balkan Indo-European" Subgroup together with Greek, Albanian and Phrygian."
I don't know how much clearer this can be.  But the edits reflect a fatal misunderstanding of the source at best, if not an outright falsification of the source which names a Balkan group and excludes Indo-Iranian from it.  I tried communicating with the editor but given the continued reversion I have warned the editor about edit warring.  μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous anon IP has been replaced by another anon IP, perhaps a sock of the first.  I have requested semi-protection for the page.  --Taivo (talk) 06:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  balkan indo-european 

message: There are some serious mistakes in 'Correspondence in initial position' table. Here they are:
1. First of all, one can easily see no difference between rows 2 and 4 (Sebastia and Istanbul) as well as between rows 3 and 7 (Erevan and Classical Armenian etc.).
2. Then, Classical Armenian is a disputed dialect / accent: most scholars hold it didn't have breathy voiced consonants, others, a relatively small group (but perhaps a more progressive), that it did have them.
3. The breathy voice symbol is a small [ɦ], not [h], e.g., [dʱ].
4. The Armenian dialect names tradition knows neither Azeri Əylis (it is Agulis) nor Turkish Sason (which is Sasun). Why name Armenian-derived toponyms with these corrupted forms?
5. The given IE forms - voiced, breathy and voiceless - are just one of the two hypotheses, the second being the Glottalic theory which says these sounds were ejective, voiced and voiceless respectively. 
For more and correct info, see, for example, Andrew Garrett: Adjarian's Law, the Glottalic Theory and the Position of Armenian
--Mahtrqerin (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad mistakes in Correspondence in initial position table 

message: This article isn't about Slavic languages or any other group of IE languages other than Armenian, therefore only one representative of the major branches of IE is appropriate in the cognate list, not every language that some nationalist IP wants to display for the world because s/he doesn't like the principle representative already on the chart.  Russian and Old Church Slavonic are the standard representatives of Slavic in most works on Indo-European.  Russian is the representative in this article's chart.  Adding Ukrainian because an anon IP doesn't like Russian is inappropriate in this article.  --Taivo (talk) 10:48, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  IE cognate sets 

message: Russian word "пожар" (požar) is a composite word consisting of the prefix po- and stem žar, the same as in the word "žarko" two lines above. Additionally the word has a specific meaning of 'disastrous fire' (i.e. structure fire, forest fire - these usages would be translated with the word "požar"), while the unmarked word for the physical phenomenon of fire is "огонь" (ogon').  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.74.11.222 (talk) 13:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian "požar" not cognate with "fire" 

message: This sentence seems suspicious: "Armenian is agglutinative, one of only two Indo-European languages with this characteristic, the other one being Persian." Is Persian really the only Iranian language that is agglutinative? By the way, the page for Ossetian also claims that it is agglutinative. User332572385 (talk) 20:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agglutinative 

message: Is there a source for ajnabi ("stranger, unfamiliar" in Persian) being an Indo-European cognate from ? The Wiktionary entry notes without comment that it's of Arabic origin, from أَجْنَبِيّ ʾajnabiyy, and the latter form looks like it's derived from the triliteral root j-n-b. I can't find anything suggesting that ʾajnabiyy or j-n-b were borrowed into Arabic. --Futurulus (talk) 08:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. ajnabi is definitely a (hardly used) Arabic loan. The Persian word is bīgāneh  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.67.196 (talk) 13:11, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

text: I removed it from the table. If anyone has a reliable source that says ajnabi was Indo-European before it was an Arabic word, by all means add it back with a citation. --Futurulus (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "ajnabi" as Indo-European cognate? 

message: Unless a language forms a significant minority in a country (~20%), there's no reason for it to be included in the infobox. Yes, California provides DMV and electoral information in Armenian (on request) and a single suburb has a sprinkling of street signs in Armenian, but Chinese has a much wider presence in "official" terms in the state as a whole and even in the U.S. Yet, neither California nor the United States are included as locations with a significant Chinese-speaking minority on the Chinese language article's infobox since its significance is not a widespread as Spanish. Also, having education guaranteed in the language does not mean it is enforced. One could look at the situation of Occitan in France, where while the government has approved of it, is seldom actually followed. This section does not have much compelling value so as to have these locations be considered Armenian-speaking and should only be included in the article's body given that it has sources. This only makes an infobox messier and less encyclopedic. - Moalli (talk) 09:41, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: ''De facto'' minority status

message: Paragraph 1 of the section Morphology says
:With time the Armenian language made a transition from a synthetic language (Classical Armenian) to a typical analytic language (Modern Armenian), with Middle Armenian as a midpoint in this transition. [bolding mine]
Can that be right? The subsection "Noun" says 
:Nouns are declined for one of seven cases
and the subsection "Verb" says 
:Verbs in Armenian have an expansive system of conjugation with two main verb types (three in Western Armenian) changing form based on tense, mood and aspect.
Is this a contradiction? Loraof (talk) 19:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analytic language? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified