Talk:Kurdistan Workers' Party/Archive 1

message: The author of that summary section had many facts wrong and clearly attempts to make some propaganda. For example, the author specifies the condition of the prison and tries to make Ocalan look poor, helpless and try to make the readers pity him and accuses the government of Turkey.
The reality is that, he has to put forward some information regarding the laws of that country regarding prison and prisoners. In Turkey, as in all other countries, prisoners live in cells. Their allowed weekly visits depend on their crime, just like in other countries. For example, you can't visit any prisoner in the world any time you want. There are certain rules associated with the type of the prison and more. The author clearly neglects this and writes the article with false information and he/she doesn't put forward anything regarding the difference or whether the laws have been neglected in the case of Ocalan. 
Because of the special condition of Ocalan, unlike the impression the author tried to give, Ocalan's condition is one of the best in Turkey. Not only he has access to the best medical facilities, but also his cell is one of the most comfortable cells in the whole world, because he is alone in the cell and his space is large.
The author tries to attribute the health problems of Ocalan (over 55), who had health problems before his capture, to the prison without any clear evidence or any reason.
:: I personaly think he is too confortable. --Cool Cat| My Talk 16:11, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The condition of the imprisonment 

message: Moved from article page -- Mgm|(talk) 08:57, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC) 
Note to Wikipedia: this article makes no reference at all to the violent Turkish repression of Kurdish efforts at self-determination in large sections of present-day Turkey that are overwhelmingly inhabited by Kurds. While it is true that the PKK is a terrorist organization, the violently ascerbic tone of this article and the fact that it only tells one half of the story mark it out as biased.
Note: This comment was made before the latest version of this article (just an edited version of the previous article) was protected from editing.
===Answered User:138.16.16.231===
Your baseless alogations are interesting since there is no statistic declaring Kurds presentation overwhelming, nor are Kurds remotely discriminated. They claim to be discriminated, I saw no evidence of it in a life time. Kurds Turks and others use the same fountains, they can elect their leaders and be elected, hell there was a Kurdish President, even Americans dont have a Latino or Black President. Kurds I met dont want a free Kurdish state, or a sub state. The platform such demands is not Wikipedia, it is the parliment of the nation in question. If you call senseless killing "self-determination" I rest my case. My article is based on my life time experience and various unclassified or declassified reports just search the internet. Terrorist organisations like the [PKK]] or November 17 often use internet as a propoganda tool.
A kurdish state may only trigger a midle eastern war or WW3 according to military analysts and I am curious why such edits to articles like this one Kurds, Kurdistan and other Kurd related conterversial topics is done by Anonymous people which always use internet cafe? --Cool Cat| My Talk 16:07, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment by [[User:138.16.16.231]] 

message: Your baseless alogations are interesting since there is no statistic declaring Kurds presentation overwhelming, nor are Kurds remotely discriminated. They claim to be discriminated, I saw no evidence of it in a life time. Kurds Turks and others use the same fountains, they can elect their leaders and be elected, hell there was a Kurdish President, even Americans dont have a Latino or Black President. Kurds I met dont want a free Kurdish state, or a sub state. The platform such demands is not Wikipedia, it is the parliment of the nation in question. If you call senseless killing "self-determination" I rest my case. My article is based on my life time experience and various unclassified or declassified reports just search the internet. Terrorist organisations like the [PKK]] or November 17 often use internet as a propoganda tool.
A kurdish state may only trigger a midle eastern war or WW3 according to military analysts and I am curious why such edits to articles like this one Kurds, Kurdistan and other Kurd related conterversial topics is done by Anonymous people which always use internet cafe? --Cool Cat| My Talk 16:07, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Answered [[User:138.16.16.231]]

message: * Do what you think is neutral to the article, rewrite my edits, add material, try not to remove things as it had taken me a very long time to write this. I'll review what you got. 
First:
* I dispute the neutrality of any article using the word kurdistan to refer to the region. The world refers to it as Soulthern Turkey, Northern Middle east, Asia minor, etc. Only Kurdish seperatists (not contraversial) refer it as Kurdistan. The Land of the Kurds.
Seccond:
* Gunships and aircraft are useless on most of the mountains the malitia operates, mountains are too high and targets are invisible during winter time. Not even heat sensor work (hence winter) unlike what article suggests. 
:* PKK died down in 1999 an article dating January 13, 2001 is 2 years after the organisation and Turkish military operations halted.
:* Turkey sits in the middle of Euro-asia geographicaly. Turkey borders Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia. Close proximity tu Russia, Libya. Turkey has its sizable army due to the threat. Not as a tool to torture relocate move its own citizens. Also keep in mind of HOT relations with Greece, Turkey had a mini-cold war with Greece. And even the US was bothered when greece got S-300 missles for example, quoting a US ranger in Planing-OPs. There was an arms race, not related to PKK, It started long before PKK.
:* Iran is known to fund groups like Hezbollah and other Religious Fanatics, These groups also register as "Terrorist" on us list of terrorist organisations.
:* Iraq assisted PKK before the Iran-Iraq war, kurds sided with Iranians and the result is well known. 
:* Syria harbored Ocalan in a palace, a war almost broke out. They forced him away and he bounced around untill he landed on Kenya.
:* The Turkish border between Syria, Iraq, Iran is very mountainious, very hard to enforce. These organisations often used Armenia as a bridge to pass from Iran to Turkey.
:* The organisation started with a "comunist" ideology, got a good chunk of money from the USSR
:* Your average Kurdsh vilige is a smoke town made out of a few small houses. I do not see why one would bother bombing them. That is like bombing a cammle with a cruse missle. Article suggests a massacre, if that were the case, with 100+ Gunships I do not believe a single Kurd would be alive today. 100 helicopters * 200 bullets = 20,000 rounds. AT rounds.
* Do you know why was there an establishment of "Town Guards"?
:* Do you know why the goverment forcibly moved some people off the region, the move was not based on ethnicit but based on how "red" the region was. It was either goverment moved them or whatch them die.
:* Other article dates "March/April 1999" PKK was dead a few months ago after Capture of Ocalan. The dating of the article is after the death of PKK. 
:* When people leave their places these places are rendered useless due to the mountain mallitia.
:* Turkish military has compulsary millitary service, nothing discreate can be done as general populution is a part of the millitary.
:* Turgut Ozal requested the Armed town guards, it was his doing. Millitary was not pleased with the idea as the weapons handed over ended up in PKK hands rather easily. Turgut Ozal had kurdish ties. He has the power to oppose any bill.
* "Kurdish TV and radio are still illegal in Turkey". the only reason they became Illegal as any/all Kurdish TV was anti-Turkey propoganda. Publicaly burning Turkish flags also is a poor way to win public support. There is a parliment. Kurds are in it. They had a Kurdish preisdent. Who allowed kurds during the Gulf war to flee into the country so that Iraqi army do not "gas" them as there is a video footage I dont think thats discussable. 
* We do not base our knowlege on wikipedia on a few articles written by random people, it is also questionable the person who wrote the article is the person who claimed to have written it.
* You are welcome to fix things in the article here and there just dont delete sections, if you really think significant work needs to be done, comment it out by using   . I seriously suggest you work on articles that are not contraversial forst to learn the wormat of various wikipedia control codes. Also it will show you the right way to change things you disagree with. Deleting them is bad, commenting out, rewriting is good. (This of course does not include stuff like Vandalism which you are more then welcome to revert)
--Cool Cat My Talk 21:32, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ... 

message: Please provide evidence that all the mentioned consequences in the "the product" section, are solid and neutral facts. If you can't do that, then that section will not be included. Stereotek 04:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Product

message: The NPoV policy is not about suppressing points of view, but about representing all genuine and significant points of view fairly.  Moreover, external links do not have to be NPoV — that makes little sense, in fact.  When an article deals with a controversy, it should represent all sides, and provide external links to relevant (PoV) sites.
If there's a genuine reason for deleting the links, could it be stated here? Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 13:19, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies for deleting your links — but your edit summary didn't mention them, and the reason you gave for deleting the links was that they were PoV, with no mention of their quality.  As for quality, what exactly is your objection? Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 16:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I've just replaced your additions (you'd better check to make sure that I've done it properly).  I agree with you about the two links, and think that they do indeed need to be removed. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 16:37, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Cool Cat, you might have thought that you had only commented material out, but you had in fact deleted some.  I don't understand your objection to including the link to the PKK site; NPoV demands that every significant PoV be represented neutrally, and certainly allows PoV links.  The links to photographs of dead bodies, on the other hand, don't really do anything.  We need to discuss these things properly (and Stereotek, language like 'The pathetic snuff links that you are pushing' doesn't help. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 11:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Mel. Jayjg (talk) 18:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: You've removed the links again.  If there is any article which should have links to these websites, it is this one. Jayjg (talk) 02:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool Cat, don't just state that the wording is incorrect — tell us why, and what you think should replace it.  Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 09:01, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I wish you didnt revert, isntead comnent out and rewrite. --Cool Cat My Talk 12:09, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPoV and external links

message: You are welcome to rewrite material. You are not welcome to remove material. You are not welcome to waiste my time either. --Cool Cat My Talk 08:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV