Talk:Political machine

message: Clientelism should have its own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.165.209.92 (talk • contribs) 13 Dec 2005
: Why? How are the topics separable? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Clientism

message: I have noticed the term "political machine" being used in a modern context to describe tight-knit party organizations in modern cities and suburbs. For example, Tom Delay is said to have a political machine in Texas. Should the use of the term in this context be discussed on this page? Someone might come to this page having seen the term in a newspaper or heard in on the radio or TV used to describe a present-day political structure. Maybe this should be addressed? Griot 17:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it can be documented that Delay's machine is largely knitted together via patronage, then perhaps that belongs here. Otherwise, I'd disambiguate and considere it a different use of the term. PACs form an interesting middle ground here and should perhaps be mentioned: they are liable to bind elected officials to the controller of the PAC, but are not liable to bind voters. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:08, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern political machines 

message: Griot, it seems to me that your recent edit tilts this awfully far in favor of machine politics. It may have previously been too biased the other way.
It would be good if someone would seek a happy medium, preferably with cited praise and criticism of machine politics. - Jmabel | Talk 20:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: This is the most irresponsible article I have ever found on wikipedia.  Please post some sources for this machine theory.  There are hundreds of books written on clientelism, several of which sit on my shelf, and none of them mention any nonsense about a "political machine."  I have been a student of political science, studying clientelistic relationships, for many years, and I have never heard the concept "political machine" linked to the peer-reviewed scholarly work out there on clientelism.  Admittedly, I haven't read everything on the topic, so if someone could just please post a few sources on this concept, I will gladly go out and read them and if necessary reconcile my present doubts.  I will also look into the matter on my own.  Otherwise, I am going to have to insist on the creation of a separate page for clientelism, and I will do it myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.57.48.235 (talk • contribs) 24 September 2006.
: I believe that at one time these were two separate articles and were merged. At the time, no one raised any objections. I don't really see what the distinction between the two would be, but if you have material to bring forward to indicate a distinction, I would welcome it. If, however, the only distinction is that writers about Latin America tend to call it "clientelism" and writers about the U.S. and Canada tend to call it a "political machine", then that strikes me as a distinction without a difference. - Jmabel | Talk 20:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Irresponsible"

message: While some of this is quite accurate, the article is way under-cited (e.g. who says the Irish uniquely benefitted and other immigrant groups did not?), and many of the things that do have citation are sloppily cited (e.g. books mentioned, but no page numbers for the relevant passages). Also, some of it is so poorly worded I can't make out what it means to say: I cannot decipher "this view often coincided with a lack of period alternatives." 
This could be greatly improved by someone willing to put some time into it. - Jmabel | Talk 06:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sloppy article 

message: Why isn't an option to the Political Machine (game) here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.184.19 (talk) 21:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Political Machine (game) 

message: What about the political machine of Mr. and Mrs. Clinton?  You often hear them talk of the Clinton Machine; I'm sure it deserves a mention.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.116.3 (talk) 18:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  I'll do some research and see what I can put together. -- False Prophet (talk) 02:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone considered mentioning the political machine of New Labour in the Blair years? Peter Mandelson's campaigning was literally described as 'Mandelson's marvellous Millbank machine' and yet nobody mentions it in the political machine article. It's probably the definitive non-US political machine, especially when it comes to voting strategy. 2A02:C7C:70B4:BF00:218C:E4FC:B393:3BD0 (talk) 15:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: The Clinton Machine

message: I have an issue with Robert M. La Follette, Sr. being on this list.  If you have done any research on him, you will learn that he fought the political machine, and was an enemy of Boss politics.  If no one can provide a rationale reason as to why he belongs here, I'll remove him Thursday (UTC).  -- False Prophet (talk) 02:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fighting Bob 

message: "political machine" and "machine politics" are simply pejorative labels. To say anyone falls into this category is simply POV - all we could do is say that someone was once accused it and no more. The article needs substantial rewriting to make it neutral.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totally disputed 

message: Is actually an extended play on the powers of bureaucrats, and has no relationship with "political machine" as found in the US.  FWIW, Ben Franklin set up one of the first political machines in the US -- the "Junto" in Philadelphia.  Collect (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, Minister 

message: * The Political Machine of New York City, Roy V. Peel, The American Political Science Review, Vol. 27, No. 4  (Aug., 1933), pp. 611-618 Published by: American Political Science Association (|link)
* The Urban Bureaucracy and the Chicago Political Machine: Who Gets What and the Limits to Political Control Kenneth R. Mladenka The American Political Science Review, Vol. 74, No. 4  (Dec., 1980), pp. 991-998 Published by: American Political Science Association (link)
* The Social Bases of an Urban Political Machine: The Case of Palermo Judith Chubb Political Science Quarterly, Vol. 96, No. 1  (Spring, 1981), pp. 107-125, Published by: The Academy of Political Science (link)
* Patrons and Clients, Jobs and Machines: A Case Study of the Uses of Patronage Michael Johnston The American Political Science Review, Vol. 73, No. 2  (Jun., 1979), pp. 385-398 Published by: American Political Science Association (link)
Retrieved from these search results. Avruch  T   22:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right - I'll have to see, for the sake of my curiosity, if those were listed on the page when the AfD was posted. The two "further reading" sections actually overlap. Lot's of sources available to turn this into a high quality article, anyway. Avruch  T   16:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other sources 

message: === Noroton's proposed version===
I thought this rewrite of the top section, adding a new section, "Definition", would be noncontroversial because it seemed to meet the objections previously made. It adds sourcing, removes some comments I didn't see reflected in sources, and I tried not to state anything controversial (or where I thought there would be objetions). Any statements in the first paragraph are either too commonsensical to bother sourcing or have sources further down. Please look at the Encyclopedia Britannica article linked to in the footnotes and see the quotes from the Safire source. I don't understand in the "The problems with this article" discussion, below, where the continuing objections aren't already answered here. 
::A political machine (often just "machine") is a disciplined political organization in which an authoritative boss or small group commands the support of a corps of supporters (usually campaign workers), who receive rewards for their efforts. Although these elements are common to most political parties and organizations, they are essential to political machines, which rely on hierarchy and rewards for political power. Machines sometimes have a political boss, often rely on patronage, the spoils system, "behind-the-scenes" control, and longstanding political ties within the structure of a representative democracy. Machines typically are organized on a permanent basis instead of for a single election or event. The phrase is a pejorative term in the United States.
::Although the term "political machine" dates back to the 19th century in the United States, where such organizations have existed in some municipalities and states since the 18th century, similar machines have been described in [[Latin America, where the system has been called (under the name clientelism or political clientelism), especially in rural areas, and also in some African states and other emerging democracies, like postcommunist Eastern European countries. Japan's Liberal Democratic Party is often cited as another political machine, maintaining power in suburban and rural areas through its control of farm bureaus and road construction agencies.American Journey, 2005 In Japan, the word jiban (literally "base" or "foundation") is the word used for political machine,Safire, William, Safire's Political Dictionary, pp 391-392, "Machine politics" article, first edition, 1978 (although the book existed in an earlier version titled "The New Language of Politics"), Random House In the ancient Roman Republic, a similar patronage system existed. 
:;Definition
::Encyclopaedia Britannica defines "political machine" as, "in U.S. politics, a party organization, headed by a single boss or small autocratic group, that commands enough votes to maintain political and administrative control of a city, county, or state.""Political machine" article, Encyclopaedia Britannica website, retrieved December 6, 2008 William Safire, in his Safire's Political Dictionary, defines "machine politics" as "the election of officials and the passage of legislation through the power of an organization created for political action." 
::Hierarchy and discipline are hallmarks of political machines. "It generally means strict organization", according to Safire. He quoted Edward Flynn, a Bronx County Democratic leader during the presidency of Franklin Roosevelt, who wrote "[...] the so-called 'independent' voter is foolish to assume that a political machine is run solely on good will, or patronage. For it is not only a machine; it is an army. And in any organization as in any army, there must be discipline."
::Political patronage, while often associated with political machines, is not essential to the definition for either Safire or Britannica.
::The phrase is considered derogatory "because it suggests that the interest of the organization are placed before those of the general public", according to Safire. Machines are criticized as undemocratic and inevitably encouraging corruption.
:;References:
===Discussion of objections to this article===
OK, let me lay out where I'm coming from. "Political machine", I think we agree is a pejorative term. It is a label that some people have applied to certain politicians and political infrastructures at varying times. We can perhaps record a) what the term generally implies by those who use it (requires sources) b) notable instances of its use and regimes to which it has often been applied. 
What we must not do is actually call any particular regime a "political machine" - that would be POV and labelling. I realise that there are sources on "political machines", but ultimately there are simply authors discussing particular organisations, or trends within a number of administrations under the title. So we can say "Bob Smith called the administration of mayor x, a political machine, because according to Smith it...". But ultimately that's only notable if Smith is notable, and his critique is an important example of the use of the term. 
Broadly this article must be an article about the term, and its application and NOT about the administrations to which it has been applied. It isn't so much a concept as a label applied to imply certain things. 
I'm also unhappy with us saying things like "political machines exist elsewhere although they are called different things". If the term isn't being used of those other regimes, then it is irrelevant. We could only record that similar pejorative terms might exist, but we shouldn't more from there to imply that regimes called these other things are "political machines", because then we are certainly into POV. It isn't going to be enough to reference any accusations that something is a political regime, we need to directly attribute the accusations. Anyway, just some thoughts.--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not convinced that the term falls on the POV/opinion side of WP:ASF. It seems as if it could have objective qualification criteria as a form of organization distinct from any other. The sources certainly seem to discuss "political machine" as a valid concept rather than term of abuse. For these reasons I cannot support the approach you recommend, unless you can show that your perception is shared by a significant proportion of the reliable sources which cover this topic. Skomorokh 17:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources are describing administrations and applying a label. No?--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps (though it's more accurate to say that it's electoral campaign mechanisms that are being labeled), but that says nothing more about neutrality than to say that the term "executive branch" is applied to the POTUS and his cabinet. All nouns are "labels", but that does not make them pejorative. Skomorokh 17:52, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "executive branch" is objective term, and would also be used comfortably as a self-reference. "political machine" is value judgement and subjective. Can you give me any instance of anyone self-describing as being involved in a "political machine" or using the term in a positive way? Look, I can provide some qualified sources stating that Obama is a "machine politician" and has been involved in "political machines". Now, would you be happy if this article stated that Obama was part of a political machine, and gave that as a fact rather than someone's opinion?--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Terms can be objective and have negative connotations without being pejorative; to describe a piece of fruit as "rotten" is to make a claim which is falsifiable by comparing the actual state of the object to the objective biological criteria governing what constitutes "rotten" fruit. For a term to be pejorative, its user must intend its use to disparage its object. No I would not be happy with the Obama article describing him that way as fact, but only because it is my impresssion that it is only a minority of sources who consider Obama as a patron of political machines in a definitive way. But our neutrality policy explains very clearly when referenced claims ought to be treated as opinion and when they ought to be treated as fact, and the burden is on the disputant. Skomorokh 18:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is an objective term, then either he is or he isn't. If I can find some good sources to say he is, then we can put him in the article here.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, that's the problem. There is no one definition of this. It is totally subjective. Some people are certainly using it to imply corruption and nepotism (which would make it pejorative) others are not. You need to have a discussion with Skomorokh above.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have known "machine" politicians -- many.  Corruption is as common for them as for any other politicians.  If the article defines it as a term for a "well-run political organization" than there should be no need to use the word "pejorative."  In the days of patronage being everything, corruption was, of course, a big problem.  Blame that on Andrew Jackson and the "spoils system." Collect (talk) 18:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Britanica says it carries a pejorative meaning. I have provided the citation requested.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is having a pejorative meaning objectionable? Gang rape, Political corruption, Terrorism and Genocide all have pejorative/derogatory meanings. The Safire and Britannica sources meet your objtection to there being no definition of this. What am I not understanding here? -- Noroton (talk) 19:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: (ec with SM) I think either some or all of the objections Scott has to the article are met by the quotes I have from William Safire's book and from the Encyclopedia Britannica article linked in the footnotes and at the External links section of the article. For convenience, I just added my proposed text above this discussion. Again, please look at the Encyclopedia Britannica article and see the way they approach this. As Avruch says just below, we follow sources here, and there are top-notch sources for this. I'm certain that any introductory political science textbook would discuss the phenomenon and we know it's discussed by numerous academic sources. Scott, I'm unfamiliar with politics in the U.K. Perhaps the term isn't used there, or I suppose it's possible the phenomenon doesn't exist there (it doesn't exist in most places in the U.S.). Collect, I'd be interested to see what you think of the Britannica article. Here's a link to it:  Again, I think the sourcing we have is already adequate, but we'd benefit greatly from more and better political science sources. -- Noroton (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: According to Safire, the term started becoming widespread after the U.S. Civil War. (Just prior to that, in 1857, Tammany Hall apparently took over politics in New York City (at least according to one source I read), and that may have something to do with it). Tammany Hall and machine politics go back at least to the time of the Alexander Hamilton / Aaron Burr rivalry. Avruch, you're absolutely right: this whole discussion should depend on what we find in sources. If they define it as something that exists and if we can meet all policy objections, that should settle it. It's a good-enough subject for Encyclopaedia Britannica (once more, the link: ) -- Noroton (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Note that the EB does not even mention the word "pejorative" until after corrupt examples.  And then only says it may have a "pejorative sense."  RHD has the political meaning, and does not call it pejorative.  AHD has the political meaning, and does not all it pejorative. Wordnet ditto. M-W ditto.  Not a single one calls the usage "pejorative."  None.  (signed late)  Collect (talk) 23:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: It turns out much of the Ross book is online, and she has a WP article (now linked above). See chapters 1-4  -- Noroton (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is in the '78 edition and would work well for the article. It also illustrates how being a "political machine" is one of those subjects that's vague at the borders because it really depends on how much the organization relies on spoils and the like to succeed (to some extent, nearly every political organization does). The ideal source would be a widely respected political science source with a good definition. There are a lot of hits in Google Books in which "political machine" is used to describe politics in Japan, ancient Rome and Latin America (although I suspect local cultures and conditions made these somewhat different than in the U.S. In Rome, help in the courts was apparently an important aspect, for instance). In one, Sallust was called Caesar's "henchman", and I saw "ward healer" and "political boss" elsewhere. (Obviously, some of that language is not meant to be exact.) Before the current meaning gelled, the term was used by numerous sources to simply mean "political system". Gibbons uses it that way, once, in Decline and Fall. If I'm able to get to a library ths week, I'll try to find some good poli-sci sources, but I'd be happy to see others add them. -- Noroton (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I've been reading a chapter about political machines The Politics of American Cities: Private Power and Public Policy, a self-described textbook by Dennis R. Judd, some kind of academic at the University of Denver (1979). The subject is enormous, and he cites loads of examples from around the U.S. from the late 19th C. to early 20th C. He provides a definition and a lot of information on the typical workings of machines, with example after example. There are subchapters on the positive and negative aspects of machines, and a large number of colorful examples. Beyond the Melting Pot by Daniel Moynihan and Nathan Glazer also discuss the Tammany political machine extsnsively, especially how the Irish dominated it and how that influenced politics (most major urban political machines were Irish-controlled). James Bryce's The American Commonwealth, a landmark book, has a chapter on the Tweed Ring. What a subject. -- Noroton (talk) 02:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The problems with this article 

message: OK, let me lay out where I'm coming from. "Political machine", I think we agree is a pejorative term. It is a label that some people have applied to certain politicians and political infrastructures at varying times. We can perhaps record a) what the term generally implies by those who use it (requires sources) b) notable instances of its use and regimes to which it has often been applied. 
What we must not do is actually call any particular regime a "political machine" - that would be POV and labelling. I realise that there are sources on "political machines", but ultimately there are simply authors discussing particular organisations, or trends within a number of administrations under the title. So we can say "Bob Smith called the administration of mayor x, a political machine, because according to Smith it...". But ultimately that's only notable if Smith is notable, and his critique is an important example of the use of the term. 
Broadly this article must be an article about the term, and its application and NOT about the administrations to which it has been applied. It isn't so much a concept as a label applied to imply certain things. 
I'm also unhappy with us saying things like "political machines exist elsewhere although they are called different things". If the term isn't being used of those other regimes, then it is irrelevant. We could only record that similar pejorative terms might exist, but we shouldn't more from there to imply that regimes called these other things are "political machines", because then we are certainly into POV. It isn't going to be enough to reference any accusations that something is a political regime, we need to directly attribute the accusations. Anyway, just some thoughts.--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not convinced that the term falls on the POV/opinion side of WP:ASF. It seems as if it could have objective qualification criteria as a form of organization distinct from any other. The sources certainly seem to discuss "political machine" as a valid concept rather than term of abuse. For these reasons I cannot support the approach you recommend, unless you can show that your perception is shared by a significant proportion of the reliable sources which cover this topic. Skomorokh 17:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources are describing administrations and applying a label. No?--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps (though it's more accurate to say that it's electoral campaign mechanisms that are being labeled), but that says nothing more about neutrality than to say that the term "executive branch" is applied to the POTUS and his cabinet. All nouns are "labels", but that does not make them pejorative. Skomorokh 17:52, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "executive branch" is objective term, and would also be used comfortably as a self-reference. "political machine" is value judgement and subjective. Can you give me any instance of anyone self-describing as being involved in a "political machine" or using the term in a positive way? Look, I can provide some qualified sources stating that Obama is a "machine politician" and has been involved in "political machines". Now, would you be happy if this article stated that Obama was part of a political machine, and gave that as a fact rather than someone's opinion?--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Terms can be objective and have negative connotations without being pejorative; to describe a piece of fruit as "rotten" is to make a claim which is falsifiable by comparing the actual state of the object to the objective biological criteria governing what constitutes "rotten" fruit. For a term to be pejorative, its user must intend its use to disparage its object. No I would not be happy with the Obama article describing him that way as fact, but only because it is my impresssion that it is only a minority of sources who consider Obama as a patron of political machines in a definitive way. But our neutrality policy explains very clearly when referenced claims ought to be treated as opinion and when they ought to be treated as fact, and the burden is on the disputant. Skomorokh 18:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is an objective term, then either he is or he isn't. If I can find some good sources to say he is, then we can put him in the article here.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, that's the problem. There is no one definition of this. It is totally subjective. Some people are certainly using it to imply corruption and nepotism (which would make it pejorative) others are not. You need to have a discussion with Skomorokh above.--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have known "machine" politicians -- many.  Corruption is as common for them as for any other politicians.  If the article defines it as a term for a "well-run political organization" than there should be no need to use the word "pejorative."  In the days of patronage being everything, corruption was, of course, a big problem.  Blame that on Andrew Jackson and the "spoils system." Collect (talk) 18:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Britanica says it carries a pejorative meaning. I have provided the citation requested.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is having a pejorative meaning objectionable? Gang rape, Political corruption, Terrorism and Genocide all have pejorative/derogatory meanings. The Safire and Britannica sources meet your objtection to there being no definition of this. What am I not understanding here? -- Noroton (talk) 19:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: (ec with SM) I think either some or all of the objections Scott has to the article are met by the quotes I have from William Safire's book and from the Encyclopedia Britannica article linked in the footnotes and at the External links section of the article. For convenience, I just added my proposed text above this discussion. Again, please look at the Encyclopedia Britannica article and see the way they approach this. As Avruch says just below, we follow sources here, and there are top-notch sources for this. I'm certain that any introductory political science textbook would discuss the phenomenon and we know it's discussed by numerous academic sources. Scott, I'm unfamiliar with politics in the U.K. Perhaps the term isn't used there, or I suppose it's possible the phenomenon doesn't exist there (it doesn't exist in most places in the U.S.). Collect, I'd be interested to see what you think of the Britannica article. Here's a link to it:  Again, I think the sourcing we have is already adequate, but we'd benefit greatly from more and better political science sources. -- Noroton (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: According to Safire, the term started becoming widespread after the U.S. Civil War. (Just prior to that, in 1857, Tammany Hall apparently took over politics in New York City (at least according to one source I read), and that may have something to do with it). Tammany Hall and machine politics go back at least to the time of the Alexander Hamilton / Aaron Burr rivalry. Avruch, you're absolutely right: this whole discussion should depend on what we find in sources. If they define it as something that exists and if we can meet all policy objections, that should settle it. It's a good-enough subject for Encyclopaedia Britannica (once more, the link: ) -- Noroton (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Note that the EB does not even mention the word "pejorative" until after corrupt examples.  And then only says it may have a "pejorative sense."  RHD has the political meaning, and does not call it pejorative.  AHD has the political meaning, and does not all it pejorative. Wordnet ditto. M-W ditto.  Not a single one calls the usage "pejorative."  None.  (signed late)  Collect (talk) 23:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

text: It turns out much of the Ross book is online, and she has a WP article (now linked above). See chapters 1-4  -- Noroton (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is in the '78 edition and would work well for the article. It also illustrates how being a "political machine" is one of those subjects that's vague at the borders because it really depends on how much the organization relies on spoils and the like to succeed (to some extent, nearly every political organization does). The ideal source would be a widely respected political science source with a good definition. There are a lot of hits in Google Books in which "political machine" is used to describe politics in Japan, ancient Rome and Latin America (although I suspect local cultures and conditions made these somewhat different than in the U.S. In Rome, help in the courts was apparently an important aspect, for instance). In one, Sallust was called Caesar's "henchman", and I saw "ward healer" and "political boss" elsewhere. (Obviously, some of that language is not meant to be exact.) Before the current meaning gelled, the term was used by numerous sources to simply mean "political system". Gibbons uses it that way, once, in Decline and Fall. If I'm able to get to a library ths week, I'll try to find some good poli-sci sources, but I'd be happy to see others add them. -- Noroton (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I've been reading a chapter about political machines The Politics of American Cities: Private Power and Public Policy, a self-described textbook by Dennis R. Judd, some kind of academic at the University of Denver (1979). The subject is enormous, and he cites loads of examples from around the U.S. from the late 19th C. to early 20th C. He provides a definition and a lot of information on the typical workings of machines, with example after example. There are subchapters on the positive and negative aspects of machines, and a large number of colorful examples. Beyond the Melting Pot by Daniel Moynihan and Nathan Glazer also discuss the Tammany political machine extsnsively, especially how the Irish dominated it and how that influenced politics (most major urban political machines were Irish-controlled). James Bryce's The American Commonwealth, a landmark book, has a chapter on the Tweed Ring. What a subject. -- Noroton (talk) 02:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion of objections to this article

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The terms "machine" and "boss" in the 19th century were negative epithets used by their reform-minded opponents. However in the 20th century these became standard terms for scholars and analysts who sometimes emphasized their positive contributions. See Alan Lessoff and James J. Connolly, "From political insult to political theory: The boss, the machine, and the pluralist city." Journal of Policy History 25.2 (2013): 139-172  DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/S0898030613000018. Rjensen (talk) 20:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Boss" and "machine" as loaded terms?