Talk:Rajput/Archive 16

message: I might be kicking up a storm here which is not what I want to do. Didn't Shivaji declare himself to be a Rajput through a Brahmin priest?(something Bhatt - started with a G - Gangadhar? if I remember correctly.) This was so that he could be coronated King. I don't see the point of the fighting - if Muslims want to be called Rajputs, so be it. You can put in both points of view - isn't that what a neutral article is supposed to do ? Wouldn't that be acceptable?
(unsigned)
Excusez moi,  being a Maratha i can tell you, Shivaji did indeed descend from the line of Mewar but he never considered him to be a Rajput, he was first and formost a Maratha. Many of our clans have substantial Rajput ancestry. Gngadhar Bhat was called to declare Shivaji as the "King under the umbrella" since local Brahmins were hostile to Shivaji since he tried to reform various Brahminical customs and was a disciple of Ramdas (who challenged Brahminism).
अमेय आरयन AMbroodEY 02:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another view 

message: I have moved two sections created by Shivraj Singh to separate pages. 
Rajput Clans
Rajputs and Invasions of India
They are of significant interest. Rajputs and Invasions of India presents a particular perspective, however readers of Wikipedia will find it very useful.
--Malaiya 23:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Updates

message: The Shahis of Gandhara ruled for much longer time than is usually thought.
Hsuan Tsang in 630 AD encountered a Kshatriya ruler of Kapisa, who is sometimes considered to the Sahi king Khingala who had the maha-vinayaka statue of Gardez installed. The statue has an inscription at the bottom.
The Buddhist Gilgit manuscripts also mention a Sahi king. Sahi kings are also mention by the Jain author Mahesara Suri who wrote Kalakcharya- kathnaka.
In Khajuraho, the main deity in the Lakshmana temple of Chandella Yashovarman is Lord Vaikuntha (i.e. Vishnu). According to the inscription of 953 AD, it was once in the possession of a Shahi king, who gave it to King Herambapal, whose son in turn gave it to Yashovarman.
Some Janjuas are still Hindu/Sikh. If they are indeed descendants  of the Shahis, they indeed have distinguisehd ancestors.
Rajatarangini of Kalhana frequently mentions mentions the descendants of the Shahi clan and referes to them as Rajaputra. 
Mahabharata does suggest presence of the Yadu clan (which is associated with Chandra vamsha) in that region. According to the tradition the Bhattis of Jaisalmer once ruled Gazna. 
--Malaiya 23:36, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Shahis and Janjuas

message: Monier-Williams an outstanding Sanskritist and compiler of the standard sanskrit dictionary translates a series of terms essentially connected with descent groups and kinship relations: -  vansha, kula, jati, gotra, jana, varna.
[Page 652] M Monier-Williams A Sanskrit English Dictionary New York 1976.
Rajput claimants have to adhere to this ancient classification system of India and have to be bound by and beleive in each one of vansha, kula, jati, gotra, jana, varna.  Rules are clearly laid out and  cannot change if muslims or westerners are not happy with them.
--DPSingh 11:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sez who? Your statement comes down to "The rules exist, and you must obey them!" But who makes the rules? Who enforces them? Rules are ideas held by humans and enforced by humans, and humans often change their minds about rules. Or fight over what they are, which is what is happening here. Zora 13:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Quite a few people also suggested a separate page. What did you think of that? Ss india 17:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "I think the word "Dharma" entered the Vedic literature at a very later time since it is proven that Ashoka was the first one to use it."  May I please nominate the above for Comment of the year. It shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the topic being talked about. But still don't give up... everyone is enjoying these funny observations for sure. Buddy , pick up the Bhagvadgita, and check out the first word of the first shlok (verse) "Dharmkshetre kurukshetre....." and then resolve to think before you post. Frankly with this, I am getting more convinced that having two pages will allow enough space for both groups. But, the pages should be called Rajputs(in India), and Rajputs(in Pakistan). That way the reader can go from the main page to the region, and not religion he chooses. Of course depends on how many guys like this idea. Ss india 10:10, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Kinship and descent groups

message: Continuing from kinship discussion I feel there is lot of confusion in the minds of non-Indians.
Kinship and descent groups in India are based on the rules laid out for vansha, kula, jati, gotra, jana, varna. Every hindu adheres to these regardless of being a Kshatriya/Brahmin/Vaishya or Shudra (ancient classifications of Indian society).  For example Shudras worship there kuladeva and kuladevi and so do Brahmin,Vaishya and Kshatriya. Religions which arose in India like Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism which had lot of voluntary conversions of practising hindus into there fold are still viewed as "same" by other hindus from a day to day point of view. 
In Indian society acceptance is measured by a desire to forge a new relatioship with a person i.e marriage.  Marraiges between all combinations of Jains,Buddhists,Sikhs and Hindus are acceptable. Indian society does not accord the same equality to followers of other religions like Christianity and Islam though they have been living in India for many hundreds of years. Followers of these religions do not fit into rules of Indian society and are hence considered "without jaati". Consequently Indian society does not accept Hindus/Jains/Sikhs/Buddhists marrying Christians or Muslims. 
There are Buddhists outside India also and these rules do not apply to them for example in Japan, China or Thailand. 
When some rajput women married mughals rajputs did not marry muslim women deliberately because this union would have produced children which could not have fit into the rules of Indian society.  Such children could not continue with the jaati of there father. Similar transition of jaati took place if a brahmin married a vaishya. Parent's jaati could continue in a child if and only if both parents belonged to the same jaati to begin with. 
--DPSingh 13:19, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: For the benefit of Non Indians

message: Went through all archives and disputes can be categorized: 1. rajputs and non-rajputs differ on how easily India was conquered.  2. role of rmarathas,sikhs,rajput as vanguards of hindu religion. Contrast with Zoroastrians/Persia under Yezdezird during Invasion of Persia. 3. rajputs that converted are rajputs or not.
 
Point 3 I have addressed in kinship and descent group section and For Benefit of Non-Indians section.
===rajputs and non-rajputs differ on how easily India was conquered===
This point is addressed by W.W. Hunter, THE INDIAN EMPIRE, ITS PEOPLE, HISTORY AND PRODUCTS, First published: London: Trubner & Co., Ludgate Hill, 1886, .
[CHAPTER X. Page 268].
Within a hundred years after his (Muhammad's) death, his followers had invaded the countries of Asia as far as the Hindu Kush. Here there progress was stayed and Islam had to consolidate itself during three more centuries before it grew strong enough to grasp the rich prize of India. But almost from first the Arabs had fixed eager eyes upon that wealthy country. Fifteen years after the death of prophet, Usman sent a sea expedition to Thana and Broach on the Bombay coast (647 ? AD). Other raisds towards Sind took place in 662 and 664 with no results.
[ Skipped a para where attack on Sind and its recapture by rajputs is described]
The armies of Islam had carried the crescent from the Hindu Kush westwards, through Asia, Africa and Souther Europe, to distant Spain and Gaul, before they obtained a foothold in Punjab.  This long delay was due, not only to the daring of individual tribes, such as Sind Rajputs, just mentioned but to the millitary organization of the Hindu Kingdoms.  [ Para continues where Hunter goes on to describe various Rajput/Hindu kings of this era throughout India. There were very many of them. ]
Each of these groups of kingdoms, alike in the north and in the south, had a certain power of coherence to oppose to a foreign invader; while the large number of groups and units rendered conquest a very tedious process. For even when the overlord or central authority was vanquished , the separate units had to be defeated in detail, and each State supplied a nucleus for subsequent revolt. We have seen how the brilliant attempt in 711 , to found a lasting Muhammedan dynsaty in Sind, failed. Three centuries later, the utmost efforts of  two great Musalman invaders from the north-west only succeeded in annexing a small portion of the frontier Punjab Province between 977 and 1176 A.D. The Hindu power in Souther India was not completely broken till the battle of Talikot in 1565; and within a hundred years, in 1650, the great Hindu revival had commenced which under the form of Maratha confederacy, was destined to break up the Mughal Empire in India. That Empire, even in the north of India, had only been consolidated by Akbar's policy of incorporating Hindu chiefs into his government(1556-1605). Up to Akbar's time, and even during the earlier years of his reign a series of Rajput wars had challenged the Muhammadan supremacy. In less than two centuries after his death, the succesor of Akar was a puppet in the hand of the Hindu marathas at Delhi.
The popular notion that India fell an easy prey to the Musalmans is opposed to the historical facts. Muhammadan rule in India consists of a series of invasions and partial conquests, during eleven centuries, from Usman's raid, circ.647, to Ahmad Shah's tempest of invasion in 1761 A.D. 
At no time was Islam triumphant throughout the whole of India. Hindu dynasties always ruled over large areas. At the height of the Muhammadan power, the hindu princes paid tribute, and sent agents to the Imperial court. But even this modified supremacy of Delhi lasted for little over a century (1578-1707). Before the end of that brief period the Hindus had begun the work of reconquest. The native chivalry of Rajputana was closing in upon Delhi from the south; the religious confederation of the Sikhs was growing into a military power on the north-west. The Marathas had cobmined the fighting powers of the low-castes with the statesmen ship of the Brahmans, and were subjecting the Muhammadan kingdoms throughout all India to tribute. So far as can now be estimated, the advance of the English power at the beginning of the present century alone saved the Mughal Empire from passing to the Hindus.
===role of rajputs/marathas/sikhs as vanguards of hindu religion. Contrast with Zoroastrians/Persia under Yezdezird during Invasion of Persia===
This section is from THE PARSEES, THEIR HISTORY, MANNERS, CUSTOMS AND RELIION. DOSABHOY FRAMJEE. First Published LONDON: SMITH, ELDER and CO., 65, CORNHILL: 1858. [Page 3]
Suffice it to say, that with Yezdezird, the forty-fifth king in te descent of the race of Kaimurs, ended the ancient Persian monarchy. The neighbouring and wealthy empire of Persia presented too tempting a prize to the fanatic and ambitious spirit, evoked by Mahomed, to remain long unmolested , and in the middle of the seventh century of the Christian era, the Arab sword invaded Persia, under Caliph Omar. In a fierce and well-contested battle with the Persians at the village of Nahavand, about fifty miles from the ancient city of Ecbatana, the fate of the empire was decided.....Yezdezird, abandoning his kingdom as lost, fled the country; and after wandering in solitude and disguise for a period of ten years, was at last treachersously slain by a miller to whom the secret of his identity had been confided (651 AD).....
Thus on the conquest of Persia, the Mahomedan soldiers of the Caliphat of Baghdad traversed the length and breadth of  the country, presenting the alternative of death or the Koran, and compelling the conquered nation to accept the one or the other. By these oppressive and cruel means, a hundred thousand persons are said to have daily abjured the faith of there forefathers; and the fire-temples and other sacred places were destroyed or converted into mosques.
Same intensity of conversion by sword could not occur in India because of rajputs,marathas and sikhs at different periods of last 1100 years.
--DPSingh 13:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: DPSingh, the sources you're using are more than one hundred years old and both outdated and biased. It is simply not true that the earliest Muslims forced conquered peoples to convert. They prevented conversions. They wanted the new subjects paying jizyah, the tax on dhimmis, and suspected would-be converts of tax evasion. See The Formation of Islam, by Berkey (2003). Zora 18:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  A lot of our holy texts are older than a few thousand years as well. With your twisted logic, I would consider them as junk? There is ample evidence of how this religion has and even today is spreading. Do you want us to show newspaper reports now? Ss india 10:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disagrements?

message: This section is from THE PARSEES, THEIR HISTORY, MANNERS, CUSTOMS AND RELIION. DOSABHOY FRAMJEE. First Published LONDON: SMITH, ELDER and CO., 65, CORNHILL: 1858. [Page 3]
Suffice it to say, that with Yezdezird, the forty-fifth king in te descent of the race of Kaimurs, ended the ancient Persian monarchy. The neighbouring and wealthy empire of Persia presented too tempting a prize to the fanatic and ambitious spirit, evoked by Mahomed, to remain long unmolested , and in the middle of the seventh century of the Christian era, the Arab sword invaded Persia, under Caliph Omar. In a fierce and well-contested battle with the Persians at the village of Nahavand, about fifty miles from the ancient city of Ecbatana, the fate of the empire was decided.....Yezdezird, abandoning his kingdom as lost, fled the country; and after wandering in solitude and disguise for a period of ten years, was at last treachersously slain by a miller to whom the secret of his identity had been confided (651 AD).....
Thus on the conquest of Persia, the Mahomedan soldiers of the Caliphat of Baghdad traversed the length and breadth of  the country, presenting the alternative of death or the Koran, and compelling the conquered nation to accept the one or the other. By these oppressive and cruel means, a hundred thousand persons are said to have daily abjured the faith of there forefathers; and the fire-temples and other sacred places were destroyed or converted into mosques.
Same intensity of conversion by sword could not occur in India because of rajputs,marathas and sikhs at different periods of last 1100 years.
--DPSingh 13:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: DPSingh, the sources you're using are more than one hundred years old and both outdated and biased. It is simply not true that the earliest Muslims forced conquered peoples to convert. They prevented conversions. They wanted the new subjects paying jizyah, the tax on dhimmis, and suspected would-be converts of tax evasion. See The Formation of Islam, by Berkey (2003). Zora 18:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  A lot of our holy texts are older than a few thousand years as well. With your twisted logic, I would consider them as junk? There is ample evidence of how this religion has and even today is spreading. Do you want us to show newspaper reports now? Ss india 10:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: role of rajputs/marathas/sikhs as vanguards of hindu religion. Contrast with Zoroastrians/Persia under Yezdezird during Invasion of Persia

message: Wow it was not a great catch-up to do. First about the word "Dharma", please tell me when was the first written account of Bhagvad Gita produced? (I am talking about the research proven version)
Secondly, Rajputs have a glorious history, no matter whether they are Hindu or Muslim or Sikh. Muslim Rajputs never left the samaj, they were the very part of it and they still are. They are not less accomplished than their Hindu counterparts. Had there been the case that whoever was left, left and quickly forgotten then how was it that the Muslim Rajputs kept on ruling, in the very heart of Rajasthan for centuries and were treated and accepted as legitimate Rajputs? Why wasn't there an outcry at that time? Why isn't there any documented proof that upon leaving the religion one ceases to be a Rajput? Why still Sikhs are being considered as Rajputs although they follow a different religion that clearly defies Hinduism and its Verna Caste System? Jihad waging fanatic? My friend, it is again sad to hear that from you. Not every war that a Muslim king fought was a Jihad just like not every war that a Hindu Rajput waged was a Dharma. Who do you think was evil and who was a saint when Marathas attacked Rajputs? Who was good and who was invader when Rajputs signed treaties with the British to fight agaisnt Marathas?
I think you are modifying the definition of Rajput when you are trying to say that only Hindus can be Rajputs since this has never been the case. I have kept on saying it again and again that please provide me with at least one true historical proof that denies the existence of Muslim Rajputs in the history of the Sub-Continent.
A lot of my friends do talk about Hinduism. Can you tell me what is Hinduism? When was it given its name "Hinduism"? What is the meaning of Hindu? Where did this word come from? When was it that the followers of a particular religion started being called "Hindu"? The term Hindu Rajput didn't exist before nineteenth century.
And finally, I regret that people still are bringing Islam into all this and are saying things that are not related to this article. What the ideology of Islam is about different things is a separate issue. Those who can't win in the battlefield keep on crying and whining afterwards and there is a lot of literature where you can find it. The land belongs to the one who earns it. If India or Persia did not belong to Muslims then Rajputs were not natives of India, how can this land by theirs? The natives of India are the drawidian people who were pushed to the South by the invading armies of Aryans.
Finally, no matter how much you hate Islam and Muslims, the existence of Muslim Rajputs in India is a fact that has clearly been recorded in history and there is nothing that anyone can do about it and without a fair mention of them, there can not be a neutral and knowledgeable encyclopedia.
Zora, I am sorry that you are facing such hardship on this page but I can only admire your commitment to the truth. Thank You.
خرم Khurram 20:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Samething Again

message: from now on. Though make sure you all maintain the version of rajput page that is endorsed by all rajputs.  I have just saved the page to Shivraj Singh's last save and you all make sure to do the same.
--DPSingh 07:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fellow rajputs ignore Muslims

message: DP and Shonan, can you please contribute to the article instead of indulging into Personal Attacks?
خرم Khurram 15:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: in case that was unclear, I am referring to comments along the lines of "Fellow rajputs ignore Muslims from now on. Though make sure you all maintain the version of rajput page that is endorsed by all rajputs." above. dab (ᛏ) 18:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Please contribute positively

message: Bhagvad Gita was written after King Ashoka and Kuran was written before Muhammad was born.  What next?  All rajputs are descendants of Muhammads relatives and invaded India and converted to Hinduism?  
Shivraj Singh 19:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NPOV. being a Hindu Rajput or a Muslim doesn't count for anything on WP. All that counts are your sources, so why do you keep talking about editors instead about their sources? We will not turn this article into a self-aggrandizing piece. Yes, most of the bhagavad gita was most likely written after Ashoka. Only, it is difficult to date, because there are no historical records of the period. dab (ᛏ) 07:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History 101

message: Can you tell me what is Hinduism?What is the meaning of Hindu? Where did this word come from? 
 
The real term of the vast set of philosophies and cultures broadely classified as "hinduism" by the britishers is "Sanatan Dharma" or "Arya dharma"
The word Hindu is an ancient greek/persian nomenclature for the people living around the Indus river of yore. Indus--Sindhu--Hindu (aspirated H)
When was it given its name "Hinduism"? 
by the britishers maybe..Doesnt bother "hindus" anyways.
When was it that the followers of a particular religion started being called "Hindu"? 
Maybe around 5 B.C by the ancient greeks and persians who followed derivatives of the ancient vedic religion..Hindu was a kind of nickname for their neighbouring similar religious civilisation.
(refer point 1)'''
Would muslims agree if some people call Islam as Mohammedanism LOL..likewise a mundane( and improper) name for the ancient vedic faith of sanatan dharma is "hinduism".
The term Hindu Rajput didn't exist before nineteenth century.
Wrong again wise guy !..I have personally read references to rajaputto in the pali buddhist nikayas dated--circa 150 B.C ( Pali- rajaputto, Sanskrit-Rajaputra, Hindi-rajput)..as i have forgotten the particular scripture and verse no etc. I as yet cannot give a reference for that..
but as is written in the main page of wikipedia : Rajput, The term Rajputra has been used since the time of King Harshavardhana ,circa 5-6th Century A.D.'''
so Khurram..you were still wrong !
strike one !
Try again,son !
 
-Shonan
----
Shiv,
Again you are haughty to our religion and our Holy Book. You have been warned and advised multiple times to be civil and avoid from Personal Attacks. Please forgive me if I bring your work in attention to the administrators.
By providing the date of first written account of Bhagvad Gita, you have however, proved the point that the word "Dharma" appeared in the order of Ashoka before it did appear in Bhagvad Gita and this is the correct historical stand. If you want to dispute it then please dispute it with the researchers who have said it.
Shonan,
Thanks for your effort. You have, in a sense, proved my point that the word Hindu was not associated to the religion "Hinduism" before the nineteenth century. India was named after the river Indus and not after a religion and its inhabitants, be them Buddhist or others, were termed as Hindus by the outer world. Since the word itself was not associated with the religion before nineteenth century hence there was not mention of the term "Hindu Rajput" before that time. So my friend, in the ancient literature you will never find the word "Hindu Rajput" and this was my point.
خرم Khurram 21:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: FIRST SET OF ANSWERS FOR KHURRAMS QUESTIONS

message: By now you are seeing so much of the love pouring forth from your rajput 'brothers'. There is obviously nothing that I see an agreement upon. You also cannot ignore sources, references that you do not like by calling them unreliable, outdated whatever. As DP, Suryabandhu were saying, there doesnt seem to be much sense arguing here. Please go work on the muslim rajput page, and I am quite sure no one here is interested in vandalising it. This page should not have that ugly "disputed" tag on it that you seem to like putting up wherever you go (Rajput clans for instance). Also putting the islam-hate angle to this is not going to help at all because that is not the point. Its a matter of how the term Rajput is taken in everyday life in the land where the rajputs originated and live today. You do not need to refer to some expert british "Indologists" (total sanskrit pandits all of them for sure) to prove how two particular communities live -- just see it for yourself!! Also you mentioned above that you want muslim rajputs to be mentioned as no less rajputs on this page...why??? if you believe you are on the right side why seek this stamp of approval from the hindus?  Ofcourse if you enjoy getting it from all sides on this page, then carry on enjoying.   Ss india 11:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll say it once again: stop the "Muslim" asides and all the nationalist Hindutva cruft. I don't know if "Muslim Rajputs" is warranted, but it will not become a pov fork: It will be a sub-article of this one, or merged back here. your clueless asides against "Indologists" and "Britishers" do not present you in a more favourable light. If you only care about the Hindu point of view, why don't you go and spread it on :hi: to your heart's content. This is the English Wikipedia, and we defend the NPOV principle. Which means that academic resouces (in this case, Indologist literature) takes precedence. Your wholesale reverts will avail to nothing. If you would stop the namecalling, and begin addressing Khurram's valid concerns, arguing point by point rather than insisting on having your biased version all at once, you might make progress. If you don't have the patience to do this, you've come to the wrong place: the internet is big, and you can host your Rajput article at any free webspace provider. If there is a "Muslim Rajput controversy", document it (and no, links to this talkpage don't count), and we'll have a "Muslim Rajputs controversy" section. dab (ᛏ) 12:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I'll say it once again: stop the "Muslim" asides and all the nationalist Hindutva cruft. I don't know if "Muslim Rajputs" is warranted, but it will not become a pov fork: It will be a sub-article of this one, or merged back here. your clueless asides against "Indologists" and "Britishers" do not present you in a more favourable light. If you only care about the Hindu point of view, why don't you go and spread it on :hi: to your heart's content. This is the English Wikipedia, and we defend the NPOV principle. Which means that academic resouces (in this case, Indologist literature) takes precedence. Your wholesale reverts will avail to nothing. If you would stop the namecalling, and begin addressing Khurram's valid concerns, arguing point by point rather than insisting on having your biased version all at once, you might make progress. If you don't have the patience to do this, you've come to the wrong place: the internet is big, and you can host your Rajput article at any free webspace provider. dab (ᛏ) 12:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: de: is of course no authoritative source, but your quote translates to "the vast majority of them are Hindu". Meaning that there is a non-Hindu minority. I don't think this is disputed. dab (ᛏ) 15:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Khurram

message: I dusted off ibbetson that someone has been citing here and on para 446 in census report of 1881 he mentions that Gaurwa rajputs of Gurgaon and Delhi, though retaining the title of Rajput in deference to the strength of caste feeling and because the change in their customs was too recent for the name to have fallen into disuse, had for all purposes of equality communion or intermarriage ceased to be rajputs since they took to Karewa or widow marriage. These muslims have been touting Ibbetson.  When Gaurwa ceased to be rajputs just by changing the custom of widow-remarriage the retention of rajputi by conversion to islam is ape-shit.
--DPSingh 12:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fellow Rajputs Sisodia,Shiv,Shonan,Ss,Suryabandhu 

message: I know the answers to your questions, and any schoolboy can look them up on Ashoka and Bhagavad Gita. What is your point? Original Sanskrit texts are composed to this day. Surely you don't claim the Puranas are earlier than Ashoka, for example? Your withering contempt has very little effect on people here, and if you think that the Gita was written in 2000 BC, I can also believe that you would argue that non-Hindus are non-human, or that humanity originated in the IVC (or on the North Pole, as the case may be). 
The person who posted this (dbachmann)..who thinks that the gita was composed after ashoka etc etc ..had once upon a time also posted this :
"-put" in "Rajput" is not a sanskrit suffix for son. Raj-put originated from the word Rajputana (a mixed word variation from the sanskrit word rAjasthAna, the region of royal palaces). The word is not ancient and has no reference in the Vedic texts. 
-- Dbachmann 10:18, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Shonan" on the name 'Rajput'

message: A few people whose forbears were Rajputs and converted to Islam are insisting "that we acknowledge and honor the historical facts" resultant from that act. Others insist likewise that the idea of "rajput lineage" be given equal space (idea being that if one ancestor in say 1024 known ancestors of a person was rajput, that entitles a person to claim "rajput lineage"). What is good for the goose is good for the gander. One may consider accepting these viewpoints if these people will secure commensurate reciprocity on other, related pages, such as:
* Islam. Based on these arguments, much real need exists to prominently affirm on the Islam page that "many muslims are rajputs" and elaborate at length on what that means, for the education of the less informed
* Arab. Crying need exists to point out in the introductory paragraph the fact that the arabs are no more than a branch of the larger Jewish clan (like rajput muslims), being supposedly descended from Abraham and Hagar. If that is accepted, it should help end all conflict in the region, and our busybodies would have achieved something.
* Sweden, Finland and Texas, to say nothing of Hawaii. All these pages need to make appropriately fulsome reference to "Swedo-Finnish Texans", the identity to which one of our editors purports to subscribe. To be sure, the fact that "Swedo-finnish texans" have produced atleast one Wikipedian certainly enjoins this. 
One may point out endless other pages as candidates for similar efforts, but let us not labor the point.
Let me clarify that I vote wholeheartedly for providing all possible information about various ethnic groups, even the apparently oxymoronic “muslim-rajputs”, based on the knowledge and evident good faith of at least some of our wikipedians (take a bow, Khurram, your unfailing courtesy if heartwarming). I just do not wish to see it impinge on the main Rajput page; I have previously proposed a separate page, linked from the “see also” section of the main rajput page. 
ImpuMozhi 03:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reciprocity on other pages

message: People involved in the quarrels on this page have shown a remarkable lack of interest in any matter concerning serious history. Neither the ridiculously hagiographic 'rajput pride paltan', whose bibles are the laughable bardaic songs of the court-balladeers of sundry (otherwise loser) rajput chieftains, nor the single-point-agenda "rajput-muslim" brigade with their unsustainable claims, seem to care for the factual accuracy of other information presented on this and related Indian history pages. This is possibly because both parties wish to bask in the supposed glories of their reputedly rajput ancestors. 
However, the circumstance obstructs the efforts of others who wish to present a matter-of-fact, hopefully objective history of India and the princely states. Particularly regrettable is the fact that this "muslim-rajput" business has provoked the ingress of hordes of motivated PoV purveyors, who are now making life miserable for people interested in writing about rajput-ruled states and the mughal period, a major chunk of Indian history. This group is not only completely impervious to reason, but is also UNLETTERED and unread, except for some hand-me-down fairytales. Not only do they have no CONCEPT of objective history, their fables are also expressed in abominable language and composed without regard to relevance, priority, brevity or even chronology. They are impossible to read. One of these people has cited some 65 references to the Rajput article. The cited works are in fact none-too-scholarly, I will even call them an execrable selection; they are mainly written in Hindi for an audience of children and others with no intellectual pretensions. What analysis is to be expected from a book entitled "The luminous life of Maharana Pratap"? and please believe me, this is one of the more promising titles. That wikipedian cites this list en masse for all his gratuitous interventions on other articles, without attempting further specificity, which makes me suspect that he has not read even this prize selection properly!
The situation is such that a whole set of history-related pages is thus infested and cannot be worked upon. Does anyone out there wish to apologise for causing this grief?? What with this page being generally given over to insanity, this rant of mine will hopefully not be regarded as untoward or out of place. 
ImpuMozhi 04:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Just another rant

message: Just to give idea of social status of muslim rajputs. I have Searched using different names used by rajputs with there name + Muhammad.Wisesabre 04:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This only shows that some rajput people have converted in years past to Islam. How does it establish that they should still be considered rajputs? Also, why the reference to "status"? ImpuMozhi 05:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: right, I only wanted to show what is the social status of people who use rajput names. (Not just me and Khurram) Wisesabre 06:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding