Talk:La Martinière College, Lucknow

message: If we want to get La Martiniere to good article status we need to avoid having too many lists. I've therefore had a go at re-doing the infrastructure section and changing it to a prose format. I was a bit confused about which facilites are in Constantia and which facilites are in new buildings and I will probably have made some errors so please check what I've done carefully. Trivia sections are usually frowned upon in Wikipedia articles, and it is normally suggested that the material should be incorporated in the main text. I will have a go at doing this in the next few days if no one else gets there first. The little village, Martin Parwa, sounds really interesting, and probably ought to have an article in its own right. I'm a bit concerned about some of the teachers in the "Notable teachers" section. Some of them are no doubt well loved by everyone connected with the school, but they don't appear to be particularly noteworthy in their own right. To be notable they must be published authors, poets, media personalities, sports starts, etc. Also, unless the information on the teachers can be supported by references, then it constitutes original research which is not permitted. There might well be scope for someone to write a personal essay on the former teachers instead if we have to deleted some of these entries. Dahliarose 12:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, I had a look at Martin Parva, but there are only two (easy to find) sources. One is the school commenting on the villages encroachment and the other is the golf story... and the prime golfer claims elsewhere that he is from Fiji. Maybe if we have had a picture? I think it might be unfait to write an article on someones home village without some local experience. Maybe a minimal stub, but ... Victuallers 19:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I decided to go ahead and start a stub on Martin Purwa. The present actually has more content than most of the other Indian villages in Uttar Pradesh! There does seem to be a consensus that all places are notable and should have an article. Perhaps someone who lives locally can help to expand the article and add a few pictures. The village must have entries in some of the Indian gazetteers which could be used as a reference. I'm not too sure about the situation with regards to the golfers but I'm hoping someone can clarify. Dahliarose 09:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I've added the daroga to the article. I've also been able to find a few more sources to help with the expansion of the article. Further expansion would be most welcome, as would a few pictures. On another matter altogether, do you think you could provide a few explanations for the curriculum section? I'm somewhat baffled by 10+2, and I also don't understand the system of class numbering. Could you possibly let us know the ages of the children in the different classes? There is in fact an article on Educational stages. A section on the system in India would be much appreciated. Dahliarose 14:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists and trivia 

message: Not sure, if anything will come of it, but I asked "Twenty Years" an experienced GA prime editor to have a look at this article Victuallers 19:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review 

message: Advice please. C. Paul Chater is mentioned in the school song and in the Calcutta site as being a saviour of "the school" ... does that include these two schools? /in which case he should be mentioned more prominently here Victuallers 09:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Local? 

message: Of course we should try for the La Martiniere Lucknow article to be upgraded. But in our anxiety in doing so let it not be too straitjacketed. The school is unique and the article should reflect its uniqueness.
Creating a new and innovative format perhaps should be our long term goal.
I think Wikipedia is all about creating and sharing of mutual creative evolutionary energy of all of us.
I think the three of us have done our best to make the article look good.Yes I think we need to reduce the Lists. Removing the incomplete list of principals could be a good beginning.
The History of the Boy's and Girl's Schools also need to reduced and merged. 
The Murder should be part of the history section and be put in its correct historical and not hysterical perspective.
The horse buses carrying the choir is trivia and it needs to be removed.Also the info on the boys qualifying for the Roorkee Engineering college.
William Dalrymples hurried  opinions/misreadings need to be replaced by facts.  Although it is romantic to believe that Constantia was named after Martin's childhood sweet heart it is perhaps just that- a romantic thought .
Also the theory that Martin wanted to get himself buried in Constantia because he wanted to prevent the nawab from acquiring it is not strong enough. Chandan Mitra in his book says that the Constantia was originally planned by Martin as a grand mausoleum for himself. He also mentions that the Nawab Asaf-ud -dawlah had died three years before Martin.So this is also just that-pure gossip by the detractors of Martin  to prove his craftiness. 
I feel that we should keep adding to the article on Claude Martin and write on his multifaceted persona. For instance Martin was an Aviation enthusiast who introduced hot air baloons in India.He was also a self taught architect as he designed more than a dozen buildings during the construction boom years in Lucknow from 1775 to1797.Lucknow owes much to Claude Martin.
La Martiniere has been constantly reinventing itself and it is unfair to say that it is cut off from the world around it. The La Martiniere Lucknow has infact been an interesting meeting and melting pot for the various social groups in the multi cultural milieu of Awadh to study together and understand each other. This in fact can be a study in itself for some sociologist.
Having said that ,the article is evolving very well and let us continue doing it.
I think both of you Victuallers and Dahliarose were Martinians in a previous lifetime ( Just kidding )
Labore-et-Constantia.
Regards
moon 14:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality of the Article 

message: Hi born again Martinians !
Thanks for joining in.
Welcome to the Club !
Some thoughts :
* Yes i think both the Martinieres in Lucknow deserve separate articles. Lets do it otherwise we'll unwittingly be guilty of gender bias.
* William Dalrymple with all regards to him is not a historian but a historical novelist and naturally is inclined to fictional aspects.
*Comments by journos and 'an old boy' are personal opinion not history.
* Yes , Lets go slow on Notable Faculty.
* Notable Alumni list should not be reduced. All the ones mentioned are notable enough.In any case no they are not on the main page.
* Yes Claude Martin needs to be rediscovered and presented as an ingenious man that he was , someone who was born ahead of his times. His journey in social mobility is unique . I hope some day a film will be made on this amazing human being who has been misunderstood and misrepresented in history. I really think he and his legacy "still lives in us today'
*La Martiniere Trivia should be restored and perhaps be progressively integrated in the main sections. One can call it by some other name if the word 'trivia' is a problem.
*History of La Martiniere should be done more carefully. Allow me to do it. I'll try to be as objective as possible.
Vive La Martiniere 
Love and Regards
moon 17:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A few comments.
*Yes, I'm happy to go ahead with the two separate articles.
*The interpretation of history is personal opinion. The views of journalists and old boys are all valid. Everyone will have their spin on the school's history. However, we can only rely on published sources. If people haven't published their alternative views then those views won't be represented.
*Yes, the notable alumni list could do with some trimming. People without sources who look unlikely to be notable enough to warrant their own Wikipedia article should probably be deleted.
*I've now incorporated all the 'trivia' into the main article. There were some bits which related to the Lyon and Calcutta schools which I've moved to the alumni section of the La Martiniere College article as they don't belong here. It is better to incorporate these little nuggets into the main article. Trivia sections, whatever title they go under, are usually frowned upon.
*There's very little in the history section on the period after the siege and it would be great if you could expand this part, and also incorporate Chandan Mitra's views in the earlier part. Make sure you include references, especially for any contentious views. Dahliarose 20:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vive La Martiniere 

message: I've put the school song back in a box but made it a little narrower so that it doesn't take up quite so much space. Putting a school song in the main text of the article is a guaranteed way to put people off reading to the end of the article, which is the last thing we want to do. The words of the song are really only of interest to people who went to the school, and very boring for everyone else! I think Victuallers also mentioned somewhere that boxes are the recommended format for such content in would-be good articles. Dahliarose 22:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  School song 

message: I'm still somewhat confused about Martin's burial. Surely if he planned his own burial beneath the house from the very beginning he was intending to preserve the Christian heritage and to stop the house getting into Muslim hands, thought not necessarily those of the nawab. I've clarified the point about the Christian burial desecrating the building in Muslim eyes. This is an important point and something I hadn't realised. Does Chandan Mitra have anything further to say on the subject? Dahliarose 14:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martin's burial 

message: If we have separate articles for the boys' and girls' schools what should they be called. La Martinière College, Lucknow for the boys and La Martinière Girls' College, Lucknow for the girls? Do you agree that the grave accent should be included in the titles? Dahliarose 14:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles of split articles 

message: In his book Chandan Mitra only refutes the 'afterthought' theory.
My own thoughts are as follows:
- Martin built the Constantia both as a memorial to his "Constance" and his "Constancy". As such he was very possessive of the building as it represented his past ( Constance}, his present ( Constancy ) and the future institution ( Labore-et-Constantia)
- A precise and meticulous planner he must have planned his final resting place in his magnum opus-Constantia. Ofcourse he must be harbouring occasional thoughts of going back to Lyon "in a carriage" but as a realist he must have realized that his destiny was Lucknow.
Chandan Mitra quotes Martin :" I have always refused to give up the French nationality, but of which France do I belong? That of Lois XV , where I have only known misery before embarking on the L'Orient ? That of philosophers , of terror bathing in blood, or that of Bonapartewhose eastern dream has just been dissipated, after leaving Tipu Sahib alone against the English? I have collaborated for his defeat and then after he lost I have been rewarded by some gold sprinkling on my uniform-a vain plaything for my vanity.By my persevarance and hard work I have accumulated a fortune from this country which is my second motherland.I have not cheated the people who have passively succumbed to the yoke of corrupt men. I have read a lot , pen in hand, often under difficult conditions, and I know the value of the first rudiments inculcated by the paarson of St.Saturnin.That is why I divide my fortune in two.I want to thank all those who have been around me by making their life easier after my death. I also want to give the children of both Lyon and India, the instruction which I received with so much difficulty. I want to make it easy for young people to get access to knowledge , specially the sciences."
- It is quite certain that Martin was building his own 'mausoleum' in the tradition of Oriental rulers and he must have already disclosed this to his friend the Nawab Asafud daulah.The Nawab any way died in 1798 and was buried in his magnum opus-Bara Imambara in Lucknow.
Regards
moon 03:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your theory about the name. Does this idea actually appear in any published sources so that we can use it? Thank you for the fascinating extract from Chandan Mitra's book. I'm not quite sure where this leaves us with regards to the present article. Are you happy with the section of the text on Martin's burial as it now stands? If Martin was such a meticulous planner then when he conceived the idea of the house/mausoleum he wouldn't have known that he would outlive the nawab so that theory is still valid. He did specify in his will, as we state in the article, that the boys should learn about the Christian religion if they wanted so presumably Martin's burial in the house did indeed ensure that his wishes could be fulfilled. If the school was taken over by the nawab or any of his descendants (is the position of nawab hereditary or elected?) then Constantia would presumably be turned into a Muslim school without the religious freedom which Martin so desired. Dahliarose 09:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hi Dahliarose 

message: Brief note: Moon mentioned about boys attending the girls school as part of junior school. Does that in fact give us three schools ... even if there are two buildings. Where would you deal with this Junior school... under girls ... or the "main one" (I say "main" not out of sexism but because it doesnt have boys in the title.
Also - Before you separate then I think you should both appreciate the templates shown above. We will have two ... and probably in time seven articles that will all need a) a bit about Claude c) a bit about history of the school as a group d) a bit about the logo etc. If you separate the articles first then you will have a hell of a job keeping these up to date. Suggest strongly that we develop the templates first. Then when we want to make a change about whether the motto was named after his lost love or not then it can be done in one edit. Victuallers 07:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do we go about creating these templates? Can we actually have a real template for each duplicated section so that in future rather than editing all seven articles we just edit the template to make the changes to every article? I agree that we should get this article sorted first and only make the split when its stable. Dahliarose 09:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation 

message: I agree with Victuallers that the templates should be created first.
Clarification:
There are basically two Martinieres in Lucknow with their own junior schools. For some time till the late seventies a few boys attended La Martiniere Girls' school till standard IV. No this has stopped. 
moon 08:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Templates 

message: Templates are only just articles. If you read the media wiki stuff about why they think the software we use is so clever then one of their selling points is this idea of merely typing SCHOOL in double curly brackets .. embeds a copy of one page inside another. I think this is clever cos I'm an "IT" person. Is it easy? ... well yes. If you go and look at the template above called "Education in Lucknow" and you click the "e" then you are editting a template just like it is any other article. The clever thing is that when you save the template it updates every instance where that template occurs. So give a silly example .... in the top left hand corner of this page is the Wikipedia logo.... if we could find the template that contains it then every page on Wikipedia tomorrow could say "Coca Cola" instead. I'm going to move the "Education in Lucknow" template and put it in a few places. I really need Moonwiki to check it out as I may have a Hindi school in the Catholics or vice versa. Victuallers 22:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks for the explanation. Does it mean that if, for instance, we have a Claude Martin history template and a Martiniere traditions template, they would have to go in a box rather than be incorporated into the main article? With Martin's history I think we probably need to develop a shorter section for the other schools. Lucknow is inevitably going to be longer as he's buried there and Constantia was his house. Dahliarose 08:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dahlia ... your right. I'm going to try and find some "core" Claud Martin stuff that can be used on all schools but we can expand where there is much more interest. e.g. Lucknow boys would be interested in Lucknow but Lyon would be more interested in the first 17 years and why he did not return. Please comment (either way) on what you see happening Victuallers 16:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  templates a guide 

message: The school prayer that has been uploaded is the wrong one. This prayer is specific to La Martiniere Calcutta as it mentions "Paul Chater". The school prayer that I recall both at the girls and boys school used to be the one that said" Our father who art in heaven".
Victuallers , all that techno stuff is Greek to me. Tell me exactly hat you want me to check out on " Education in Lucknow"moon 05:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  School Prayer in La Martiniere 

message: OK no techie stuff. Look at it. Is it correct? Does it have the right categories of schools and the right schools in it? Should we add the Lucknow university colleges? Thx 
PS - I'll remove the prayer template. But I wnt to experiment with one or two templates Victuallers 07:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education in Lucknow 

message: That was a nice addition. But instead of pictures it would be better if their respective coat of arms are displayed in the centre. Each house has its Crest.
Regards
moon 05:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you like it. Crests would be good, but we need to find some and prove we have permission to use them (not easy). I have a wish to get some more modern photos in of the school. Martin Palwa, the lue room etc and to check the template first. I'm going to add a picture of Hodson. There appears to be only one. Hodson seems 50% hero and 50% ruthless amoral soldier Victuallers 16:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Houses 

message: I have nominated Template:La Martiniere Song (appears on this page) for deletion, you can see the debate here. Thanks. Twenty Years 14:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfD 

message: Following discussion at WT:SCH I am giving this article a re-assessment for WikiProject Schools. I am going to endorse the assessment of B / Top. This article meets a B rating with it good referencing, its coverage of a variety of topics, good illustrations and reasonable well organised layout. With a bit more work, I would now consider this article a future GA candidate.
I am giving it Top importance for several reasons. The school has a large amount of notable alumni and the boys school was the only in the world to be given a battle honour. The schools history is also very extensive such as the schools involvement in the Indian rebellion of 1867. Finally, it is beneficial to have more non-US and UK school articles be given top importance to give more balance to the assessment system. Camaron1 | Chris 18:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-assessment 

message: Now that the dust has settled and I can think straight again I've had an idea which I think might be an ideal solution for the school song. There is already an existing article for F. J. Rowe, the author of the school song. I've now had a go at expanding the article. There are numerous sources on Google Books (including a snippet of the Chandan Mitra book) but unfortunately none of the books needed to expand the article further have yet been digitised or, if they have, they are not freely available. How about reproducing the song on the F J Rowe page and then simply including links labelled 'Vive La Martiniere, the school song', on all the La Martiniere school pages? The link could either be to the Rowe article or to the relevant section within the article. Interestingly I did find the words of the song reproduced on someone's blog and he said that he'd checked the words
on Wikipedia! What does everyone think? Dahliarose 23:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The school song should not be reproduced on wikipedia, if it is, there are grounds to delete it per the TfD, and i will stop at nothing to delete it. By adding it back to the article, you could be seen as being disruptive to the wikipedia project, and blocked from editing for a period of time. I think that a simple solution to your problem is to find the page that says the school song out in full, and provide an external link to it at the bottom of the school pages that it is relevant to in the section entitled "External Links", anything more will be deleted. Twenty Years 12:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you've misunderstood. The TFD did not say that the song shouldn't be reproduced, only that it shouldn't appear across multiple articles. One suggestion was even to do an article on the song, which seems unnecessary. Dahliarose 12:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An article on the song would no doubt be absolutely killed in an AfD. I had some discussions about the inclusion of the school song on Aquinas College, Perth (before we worked out it was a copyvio), and we came to the conclusion that, although the song could be backed up by an independant source, it was not notable, and has no reason to be included in the article. Twenty Years 12:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now had a better idea and have taken up one of the earlier suggestions and put the song on Wikisource. I hadn't realised that it was still possible to use the same Wiki formatting on Wikisource but it seems to have worked out quite well. Perhaps this should be a model for other school songs. Eton College might perhaps like to do the same with their two songs. Dahliarose 13:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A solution 

message: :Image:Martstamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Martstamp.jpg 

message: Could the person who added the new unreferenced and unwikified section please set up an account so that we can discuss the additions. I've removed the new unreferenced section for the moment. Apart from the lack of references it duplicates much of the existing article. I'm also concerned that the material might have been copied and pasted from copyright material. Could you please tell us where the material came from. I've copied and pasted the material below so that it is not lost. Dahliarose (talk) 12:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New unreferenced section 

message: We seem to have a misunderstanding about the uniqueness of the battle honours. I have again reverted the edits which claim that McGill University is a school. We have previously discussed this issue (see the Battle Honours heading above). The claim that La Martiniere is the only school in the world to receive the honour is backed up by the Rosie Llewellyn Jones reference. She is the official school historian. In British English a school is not an institute of further education. I wonder perhaps if the term school has a wider meaning in American English which has led to the misunderstanding. As far as I can establish McGill University is an institute of higher education and therefore not a school. Dahliarose (talk) 21:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies, the differing usages of "school" seem to be the confusion.  In American English the word school refers to any educational institution: nursery schools, kindergartens, elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, junior/community colleges, vocational-technical (vo-tec) schools, barber/beauty colleges, clown college, universities, graduate and post-graduate schools are all schools.  Here in the States we have at least 2 schools that have been awarded battle honors by the United States Army; Florida State University and The Citadel, both for service during the American Civil War.  Also in the States, we have both colleges (institution of higher learning) and universities (institution of higher learning that perform research in addition to educating students).  Given that this is not the 1st time that the wording of the article has caused confusion, as you point out above, and as Lucknow is not the only educational institution to be awarded a battle honor, the wording really should be changed.  Cheers.  L0b0t (talk) 00:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What wording do you suggest? We could perhaps link to the UK section of theschool article which gives the differing usages. The alternative might be to use the words "secondary school", though that rather implies that there might be a primary school which has such an honour. Dahliarose (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I would suggest something like: "La Martiniere is one of only two educational institutions in the British Empire to be awarded battle honors by the Ministry of Defense; the other being Canada's McGill University."  We should not be trying to emphasize the "uniqueness" of the honor as it is in no way unique, just mention both schools institutions have the award, Lucknow for the mutiny and McGill for World War One.   Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 11:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The honour is however unique for a school (in the English sense of the word) and I think this is an important point to be made in the article. La Martiniere featured as a did you know on the front page and the La Martiniere DYK is now one of the revolving DYKs featured at Portal:Schools. There are not that many school DYKs in the Portal so it would be a pity to lose it. When the school was on the front page no one at the time queried the meaning of the word school in this context and Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools makes it quite clear that universities are not included. I think it’s more of a question of modifying the wording somehow so that American readers are not confused. The article does however make clear in the introduction that the school only caters for children up to the age of 18, and the article is written in British English. Would most Americans really find the use of the word school in this context that confusing? As far as I understand it the award is made by the Queen, and has nothing to do with the Ministry of Defence. Dahliarose (talk) 11:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle honours revisited 

message: The Article states that the bagpipe band began in 2006. Actually the bagpipe band in the boys' school started around 1968. I was one of three bagpipe players that played for the first time ever in the band when it was first formed. Actually I think we had four bagpipe players, but the fourth person dropped out.  The first time that the band tried to play for one of the annual occasions, the bagpipers were so bad that we were banned from the official ceremony, so they had a band with only drums. But we practised very hard and got quite good and subsequently played for several official occasions. Maybe they phased out the band at some point and restarted it in 2006. 
Rahul (talk) 08:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bagpipe band in boys' school: began around 1968 

message: Thanks - looks very good Victuallers (talk) 10:05, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice new image 

message: Infobox added - Houses, College colours, publication and former pupils. Faizking321 02:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited Infobox 

message: Substituted at 21:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assessment comment 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: What is the fee structure? Ranisha Chaudhary (talk) 17:34, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the procedure for admission in grade 3? 

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