Talk:Abortion/First paragraph/Archive 1

message: RoyBoy, thanks for setting this up.  What do you think of formatting the poll so that people can place support or oppose comments below each option, rather than each comment being a support, as it's set up now?  Something like:
#[Suggested opening sentence]
#;Support
#;*I support this option
#;Oppose
#;*I oppose this option
Does that sound like a good idea? -GTBacchus(talk) 05:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've tried some reformatting - if someone doesn't like it, please feel free to change it back, just be sure not to lose anyone's comments. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for now, I didn't implement it as there are so many options; but hopefully this straw poll with help us narrow it down to a few quickly, and/or combine the wording of a few together to get an uber opening sentence. - RoyBoy 800 07:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it not make sense to sign votes, to insure one vote/option/editor?DonaNobisPacem 22:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I look like an idiot - and sometimes I am ; ) - thanks to whoever edited my votes.DonaNobisPacem 02:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It's often used in that sense in medical parlance. In the same way, abortion clinics sometimes refer to an aborted fetus (with or without amniotic sac and/or placenta) as the pregnancy or the pregnancy tissue. 
I would prefer to set up separate POV descriptions of abortion, based on the majority/minority views in the general population as per WP:NPOV. Preliminary list of POVs in (descending) order of popularity: (1) Held by those who want abortion to be a legal option and describe abortion as euphemistically as possible (e.g. in order to make it less difficult to undergo or perform) - cf. descriptions authored by abortion clinics (2) Held by those who do not want abortion to be a legal option and describe abortion as repulsively as possible (e.g. in order to make it difficult to undergo or perform) - cf. pro-life descriptions. (3) Medical/legal. An easy starting point would be to convert the current article to reflect the #1 POV it already approaches, and add the #2 and #3 views separately. AvB ÷ talk 23:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: This word became a common euphemism for "abort" after 1972 when abortion which had been a crime throughout the United States became legal in all 50 states.  It now is being served up here and elsewhere as the definition of abortion itself.  It becomes a circular definition without a reference to life and death: Abortion is termination, and termination is abortion.
Terminate simply means end.  The termination, end, cessation, halt, stop, etc. of human pregnancy is either a birth or a death of a human child at some stage between conception and fetal maturity.  If every human fetus expelled from a human womb was an abortion, the human race would cease to exist.
Has the pregancy of women who have given birth to living children, completed but not terminated? patsw 05:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would we say that a "birth" is a termination of a pregnancy resulting in a living baby? -GTBacchus(talk) 05:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically speaking, that would be correct.....if that helps.....DonaNobisPacem 06:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  Why it should result in living baby? smth. dead babies are born. Or it's not birth than? --tasc 06:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I was trying to feel out the limits of the word "termination", not to provide an authoritative definition of "birth".  One must speak carefully, mustn't one? -GTBacchus(talk) 07:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examine the power of the euphemism "terminate" 

message: Terminate is not a euphemism.  The poor babies get terminated.  Want no euphemisms, define it one of these ways:
*An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy associated with beating the baby to death.
*An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy associated with a death camp for babies.
*Abortion is killing a developing baby inside a pregnant woman. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BabyBomber (talk • contribs).
Uh, terms like "death camp for babies" seem a little POV.  How about something like "abortion is the termination of a pregnancy associated with killing of the preborn child"?  Hmm, "killing," although technically accurate, might also be too emotional.  And yet I despise euphemisms.  How about "abortion is the termination of a pregnancy associated with causing the death of the preborn child"?  --Wade A. Tisthammer 18:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions Without Euphemism 

message: The first sentence has been stable and consensed upon in the past. I understand that people disagree with parts of it, and we have tried to discuss them. However, we never reached consensus. If editors keep changing the stable sentence without approval, it will sure keep being reverted. I feel that this applies to a number of other parts of the article as well. If you are a user, and you keep inserting your own version, without discussion or approval on the talk page, you are boardering on the edge of a POV warrior. I urge everyone to come to the talk page before making controversial and drastic changes to stable content in order to avoid edit warring. --Andrew c 00:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To get things going, I feel pro-lick's version misses what, in my opinion, is the most important part of abortion: the termination of a pregnancy (or part of a pregnancy in the rare instance of aborting twins). I am not happy with the 'death' part of the old version, as mentioned above, but I am willing to let it go because I simply cannot think of any other wording that isn't a euphamism, and as a compromise to my fellow editors who feel it is important to include that fact.--Andrew c 00:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the trouble with being ginger about language is that the single only reason that "abortion" is a different concept and a different word from "delivery" is that it involves death.  Without that minor detail, there's no difference between an abortion and a delivery.  If you're trying to perform an abortion, and the fetus somehow survives, then whoops, it was a delivery.  If you're trying to perform a delivery, but the fetus somehow dies before you get it out, then whoops, it was an abortion.  In order to soft-pedal that, we need a better reason than I've seen.  Our top priority here is to be an encyclopedia, not to help spin language for one side or the other of any conflict. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:45, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First sentence edit warring

message: As the intro now stands:
An abortion is the expulsion or removal of an embryo or fetus from a mammalian uterus before birth, terminating a pregnancy before the developing organism has a chance to survive in an external environment. 
This is not true in the case of partial birth or late term induced abortions.....DonaNobisPacem 04:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not true, but I think for a different reason.  It should end "before the developing organism is capable of surviving in an external environment."  Yes, with later term abortions if you put it in intensive care, it might survive.  The odds are bad, and the risk of significant defects high.--Pro-Lick 04:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Says who?  There are plenty of premature babies who survive, and yes, they may have "defects" (ie, health problems), but they still survive.  And with partial birth abortion, we're talking about a child that is full term.  So the baby is able to survive - and it's POV to say it cannot (considering that in a partial birth abortion, it is often necessary to do it before dilation occurs, to prevent the baby crowning and being legally declared a person).DonaNobisPacem 04:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Says who?  The stats are on my side.  And I don't know anyone that calls mental retardation or missing a limb health problems (except those that like euphemisms).  And you seem to have a different definition of partial birth than what is common.  Of course, maybe when its not just doublespeak and actual medical terminology, it will become precise and accurate instead of a euphemismistic weasel term.--Pro-Lick 04:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we are talking about two different things.  I was saying that, at the time of a late term, a fetus may survive if born (and will most probably at the time of a partial birth abortion).  If it happened naturally, it would be called premature birth - and premature babies do not necessarily suffer from mental retardation or missing limbs (in most cases I am aware of, it is susceptibility to infection, both viral and bacterial, due to under-developed immune systems, that causes the main problems, as well as a still-developing breathing instinct).  If the fetus at that time were aborted and survived, then yes, we are talking about serious issues - missing limbs, saline burns, mental retardation, and the like.  But the definition as it was worded implied that at the time of abortion, the fetus could not survive outside of the womb, not that after the abortion it could not survive outside of the womb.  So that is what I was taking issue with.  And please note: I tried to modify and work with the definition I found on the page when I got there, not revert it to my personal POV or choice.....DonaNobisPacem 05:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Premature birth--Pro-Lick 06:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Before able to survive