Talk:Fenwick High School (Oak Park, Illinois)

message: This puff-piece, totally devoid of primary sources, has been put together by anonymous IPs who don't respond to warnings, several of which have been issued by myself and other editors.  Every day it reads more like an ad, and I would encourage anyone who has a little time on their hands to spend it cleaning this mess up.  I gave it a bit of a try, but couldn't verify almost any of it anywhere except on the school's own site, and even if I accepted all of that as fact, there were still claims (only HS in the US owned by the Dominican Order, for example) that not even the school's site reflected. (added by Poindexter Propellerhead | Talk at 17:16, May 27, 2007)
:We're getting some sources and adding cites now. This will help tone down the PR flavor to it.—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  20:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Puff-piece

message: One of the areas we're working on is to verify much of the information in the article and provide verifiable references. Most of the "facts" in the article have no sources attached to them and will be deleted soon if none can be found and added; this will effectively gut the article. We alert interested editors to this need (and danger) with maintenance tags, such as ,  and . However, one or two editors have been routinely removing them without making improvements to the sources issue (and have also been adding more "facts" without sources, thus adding to the problem). Two things happen as a result: (1) interested editors are not alerted as quickly to the important work to be done, and (2) readers are not alerted that the "facts" they are reading have not been vetted and may not be accurate. We certainly appreciate the interest these editors have in improving this article and hope they continue to contribute, but please do not remove maintenance tags without first completely resolving the issue in question.—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  21:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, some may think I went a bit overboard with the  tags, but I want to prove a point about how much of the article is unsourced.—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  22:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fenwick sourcing

message: I am interested in sending my son to a top school in the Chicago area and have been researching schools. I noticed that Wikipedia's page for Fenwick has citations missing and looked into matters for myself to have justification. Fenwick, St. Ignatius, and Loyola Academy have the reputation of being the best perp. schools in the Chicago area and all are similar in tuition costs, making a choice for me a difficult one. I contacted Cheryl Harbour of the school who was able to provide justification of these claims that I saw on Wikipedia, and I received information from the National Merit Scholarship Corporation that has a profile of the school. Dr. Plass of the American Scholastic Press also wrote a profile of the school as well, and those  points, formally needing citations, were verified. I thought that I should  cite them for those, like myself, trying to make a hard choice. I was also referred to the Directory of Private Schools that lists Fenwick's and Ignatius' ACT testing scores, which are both similar at about 27 (Fenwick's specifically 26.5). Fenwick and Ignatius listing comes in neck and neck scholastically and are listed as the two best prep schools in Chicago, Loyola is a little farther behind. Fenwick is leaps and bound greater in athletics, compare to the other two schools. Fenwick and Ignatius are big rivals- loyola to a lesser extent, much like Andover and Exter as listed. Fenwick calls Ignatius "Iggy" to make fun of them and Ignatius call Fenwick the "dungeon" because of it's gothic school and black school colors. Also, because Ignatius is a far more beautiful campus as well. The school of Fenwick though is a beautiful gothic structure and was created in 1929 by the architect listed. Fenwick has a 1929 record of the architect on file- it can be checked, but I really didn't wory about that too much- it's not my primary concern of making a choice between Fenwick and Ignatius. The citations I listed should be put back for people trying to choose like I am. I will return the previous page. It is verified and accurate. The other uncited sources also seem to be correct- like their fight song being inspired from Yale's, but I don't have sources for that, and I don't really care to even look into that, again it's not important from my perspective.  You may also want to check the web page of American Scholastic Press, Fenwick's  magazine (Touchstone) is listed as an award winner. Thanks
*Follow Up: Your two sections needing sources, the "ACT" part and the "two top schools" would also be covered by the sources I listed in the above statement, but I leave that up to you to cite. I think it would be benificial to be done as well. Thank you again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.154.144 (talk • contribs)  10:56, July 1, 2007
:Glad to have someone else working on this article and focused on obtaining reliable sources. The American Scholastic Press Association source you mention, is it published somewhere? I couldn't find it online. Your description almost makes it sound like it was a communication between you and Mr. Plass. If the profile is published, it would be great if we could provide more specific information on where it can be found.
:Also, I had rearranged the yearbook-newspaper-magazine information to consolidate it all into one place, rather than breaking it up into duplicative pieces in two paragraphs. I further removed the references to first place awards for those publications because the website of the organization making the awards states that they are for place, not first. I'm not questioning that the information you received from NMSC says "first place", but I'll put more weight on the word of the primary source over that of a secondary source. Finally, can you point us more specifically to the "Directory of Private Schools" you mentioned? I searched for it and came up with far too many hits to identify the one to which you refer. It sounds like a great source for this article, so it would be nice if we could use it.
:Thanks for the help. I'm looking forward to improving this article further.Jim Dunning | talk 18:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, this is a minor effort and issue for me. I do consider accuracy and verifiability on WP to be very important, but fixing vandalism takes much less effort for me than it does for the vandals to create it.Jim Dunning | talk 18:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the additional information and your help, and I hope you resolve things on your end.Jim Dunning | talk 19:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fenwick Sourcing

message: Fenwick's official school colors are black and white. These are also the official colors associated with the Dominican Order. The school also uses a simplifed crest, as well, also associated with the Dominican Order. A shield halfed with a reverted V portion of black on top and white below- symbolic of the Order's use of a black cape over a white tunic. Other colors (unofficially) associated with the school are silver and grey, that sometimes show up in sport uniforms.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.8 (talk) 18:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  School colors 

message: Before Fenwick became Fenwick High School in 1929, it was initially referred to as Dominican Academy and Dominican High School-partially in response to Dominican University in River Forrest. With the placement of the corner stone, it was officially called Fenwick High School in honor of Dominican Bishop Edward Fenwick.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.8 (talk) 18:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dominican High School 

message: Many schools in Chicago try to claim Fenwick as a rival of theirs. St. Patrick's wants to be a rival with Fenwick's top-ranked water polo team. Loyola Academy is always against Fenwick in Hockey, while Oak Park River Forrest H.S. wants to see Fenwick as a cross-town rival, yet OPRF's 23 ACT average in comparison to Fenwick's 27 and nationally top-ranked academic and sports teams is hardly any real indicator of true competition, neither are the other schools. Overall, the biggest rivalry with prep schools in Chicago is between Fenwick and St. Ignatius College Prep, they are both in the same league academically, and they are both competeing to enroll Chicago's best and brightest.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.154 (talk) 16:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rivals 

message: Hello,
Per this sockpuppet report, and this checkuser request, several editor who have made significant edits to this page, have been confirmed as abusive sockpuppets/sockpuppeteers:
*User:Tiki-two
*User:Friarguy
*User:Fenwick School
*The IP range 65.141.156.0/23 
**Note: These IP's come from a large ISP pool, so I want to make it clear I'm not accusing all IP edits starting with 65... of being this person.
The Checkuser (see bottom of WP:RFCU link) indicates this person has a long history of adding hoax material to articles; unfortunately, they also seem to have a history of adding legitimate information as well, so their changes can't just be blindly-reverted.
I do not have enough knowledge of this particular subject to be helpful, but I suggest those of you who do, and regularly maintain this page, go back and review these users' additions, remove anything they've added that can't be sourced and verified, and add citations for anything that can be sourced but is currently unreferenced, to remove any suspicion of the legitimacy of the article.
They appear to be somewhat prolific, so if a new account shows up lobbying for re-insertion of any material you folks end up deleting as unsourced, I'd suggest being a bit wary, and insisting even more strongly than perhaps we usually do on verifiable, reliable sources for everything they try to add.  They tend to cite "rare" sources that they have in their possession, so I guess emphasis on "verifiable".
I'm not checking each article I tag with this information, so if you've already noticed this misbehavior and dealt with it, feel free to mark this section resolved or something. --barneca (talk) 15:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppetry and hoaxes 

message: There were some very lofty claims being made in the extracurricular section that was not being backed up by references, most notably, the math team and scholastic bowl team being top whatever in the nation.  First, if they were, it was for a certain amount of time that was never noted.  Second, knowing scholastic bowl, the team was never nationally ranked by anything other than a single author's blog opinion.  Third, the Wheaton North tournament, while a big tournament, did not involve Fenwick beating the University of Chicago Lab School, because Chicago Lab has no team and has never attended a scholastic bowl tournament.  This tells me that sources are either unreliable, or some editors were getting inventive with writing.  Given what I see above, I think it was the latter, but from what I know of journalism, It may be a combination.
I think this article is well on its way to being an excellent article thanks to many editors who labored to get the sourcing.  Please be sure that anything you add is rock solidly sourced, is encyclopedic, and is not of short term interest.  Make your writing precise. LonelyBeacon (talk) 21:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Keep the "top x in the nation" stuff to a minimum

message: Fenwick is currently defined as a parochial school- which technically it is not. Traditionally, parochial schools are schools with a parish attached to them. Fenwick does not have such a parish. It is a private day school of Roman Catholic denomination and run independantly. The "Special Archdiocese Admission Test" is also ambiguous. I had provided more specific wording to clarify what that means. The tuition cost is also misleading- it is a base devoid of sports costs and additional fees for extra-curriculars. Attending Fenwick will ultimately be in excess of $10,000. The reverting that is taking place, is not presenting a fully accurate account- not to mention that fenwick has a 100% college acceptance rate throughout it's founding, which was stated previously and validly cited as well. There was also removal of several notewothy and justifiably placed alumni that were fully cited. The webpage source that you are using at the moment is fine, but an incomplete list. Some alumni of the school do not want their biographies to apprear to non-alumni. Alumni of the school have their own code that opens up a complete listing of all memebers- therefore you have removed alumni that deserve to be on the list.Dr.Oak (talk) 23:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with editing 

message: I think the article now looks very complete, written encyclopedicly and constructed well. The placement of the images by LonlyBeacon also creates excellent visual balance.Dr.Oak (talk) 15:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicely Constructed Article  

message: I am copying this over so that  they can be better examined and "checked off".
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
::Based on article length, the lead should be about 3 paragraphs.  
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 3 meter, use 3 meter, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 3 meter.[?]
*Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), avoid using special characters (ex: &+{}[]) in headings.
*Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honor (A) (British: honour), meter (A) (British: metre), metre (B) (American: meter), defense (A) (British: defence), recognize (A) (British: recognise), enrollment (A) (British: enrolment), enrolment (B) (American: enrollment), program  (A) (British: programme).
*As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, APR t 00:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer Review Suggestions

message: Very special and public thanks to User:Ruhrfisch for his time and effort in peer reviewing this article.  I have already taken some steps in regards to the suggestions.  Aside from more references. There needs to be more addition by subtraction.  The timeline near the end needs to be excised.  I have not done this, because some of that needs to be added into the history section, and I would rather an editor more knowledgeable on such matters (and thankfully, I know there are at least one or two) handle that part so that it gets worded accurately. LonelyBeacon (talk) 20:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More Peer Review

message: Corrections made: Excised timeline, and scratched valedictorian and senior officers. Important dates were added into text with citation.Dr.Oak (talk) 00:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer Review Corrections 

message: I am re-assessing this article as B / High for WikiProject Schools. The peer review at Wikipedia:Peer review/Fenwick High School (Oak Park, Illinois)/archive1 contains plenty of advice in improving the article. Overall, the article seems to be meet the standards for B-class and is on its way to GA. Additional hints I can give is to make sure the article uses appropriate cite templates such as , expand the lead a bit more, ensure the article is fully compliant with the WP:MOS, and to investigate the copyright of the logo more as the licence's accuracy is a bit suspicious. I am giving the article high importance for its alumni, long history, notable teachers, and achievements. Camaron | Chris (talk) 16:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-assessment

message: I have to disagree with some of LonelyBacon's removal of alumni. both the General and WWII flying ace deserve their own pages within Wikipedia and have good sourcing to them, outside of Fenwick. Those two, at least, deserve to be brought back with valid sourcing.Catal uber (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to walk away from this article (again).  It seems that difficulties seem to hang on it like an albatross.  Proceed as you will, I will not edit war over this. LonelyBeacon (talk) 01:34, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alumni 

message: why do you revert an edit by saying that it it not listed in a 2009 mag, when the citation comes from a site and indicated as such. The facts are correct, cited correctly, and can be checked as we speak. So what is your issue?Fenwick HS (talk)
:The sources listed is "The Magazine, 2007" and "The Magazine, 2009". That's well before the 2010 events you are trying to source. Edward321 (talk) 00:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: reversing edits

message: I don't really see the logic of removing a factually accurate point about the 2010-2011 standing on merit-based scholarships, nor that Fenwick was the 2011 conference chess champions, or removing a ton of notable alumni from the business section. This isn't a conflict of interest or a "prestige factor". No one is writing that Fenwick is the "greatest school". These are legitimate points, factual points. Now it did say that Fenwick achieved a "record" $40 million in merit-based scholarships- which is a record for the school- and may be confussed as a national record. That wording may be corrected. But $40 million in merit based scholarships- is simply a factual statement, and not a prestige issue in ay sort of way. Returning factual points with corrected wording.thanks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.7.196.150 (talk) 16:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing legitimate points

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added  tag to http://wwwtest.forbes.com/finance/mktguideapps/personinfo/FromPersonIdPersonTearsheet.jhtml?passedPersonId=939421
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:23, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Fenwick High School (Oak Park, Illinois). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=RABOLMIK01
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100218101929/http://databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SULLIMAR01 to http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SULLIMAR01
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:37, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Fenwick High School (Oak Park, Illinois). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110727124011/http://www.niscaonline.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=AwvXbuE4kGE%3D&tabid=66&mid=412 to http://www.niscaonline.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=AwvXbuE4kGE%3D&tabid=66&mid=412
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110727124030/http://www.niscaonline.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=tItNSntFteY%3D&tabid=66&mid=412 to http://www.niscaonline.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=tItNSntFteY%3D&tabid=66&mid=412
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have removed a number of alumni who do not have wikipedia articles to show their notability. The edit is here is here  in case anyone wants to attempt to write articles for any of them. Some of them may well be notable enough to qualify for an article, but none of them appear to meet the requirements to be presumed notable without an article. Meters (talk) 05:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul E. Tierney, Jr.  has been restored with the correct link. Meters (talk) 05:24, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  alumni again