Talk:Capture of USS President

message: Insofar as I am concerned, "You may delete when you are ready, Mr. Gridley."    Mmccalpin 19:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Shouldn’t someone at least mention that this incident occurred after the Treaty of Ghent was signed? The articles about the capture of HMS Cyane by USS Constitution and most especially the article about the battle of New Orleans make this clear in those cases, some editors going so far as to claim (either in the text or in the talk page) that the battle of New Orleans was fought because the combatants weren’t aware that the war was over. In fairness, the same points should either be made here or removed from the other articles to avoid the appearance that only American victories should be disparaged in this manner.
Tupelo the typo fixer (talk) 20:20, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess the difference is that this engagement took place several weeks before the treaty was ratified, whereas the capture of Cyane took place a few days after.--Ykraps (talk) 07:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

text: The Cyanne article makes much of the fact that the combatants were not aware the war was over, "but the combatants were not aware of this" (lead), "Constitution reached Puerto Rico where Stewart learned that the war had ended some days before he had fought", (last paragraph), and the New Orleans article makes it abundantly clear that the treaty had yet to be fully ratified so whatever point you think is being made is thus nullified in both articles. Your initial comment mentioned the Treaty of Ghent but did not make any reference to its ratification which led me to believe that that was either something you didn’t want to include or hadn’t even considered. In either event, I thought it important to make the distinction. Rather than trade patronising insults and now that you’ve had some time to think about it, what is the precise wording you wish to add in order to improve the article? Notwithstanding of course that this article is currently a long way short of its purported B class rating.--Ykraps (talk) 20:05, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

text: I was a little confused by your use of the word disparage, which I took to mean worthless; to describe a battle in a war that most modern historians, on both sides of the Atlantic, consider worthless in its entirety. Thus it appeared to me that you thought there was some conspiracy to downplay or dishonour American victories. I don’t see it that way because, as I’ve already said, both articles go to some length to absolve all parties of any wrong-doing. So if you want to add a similar explanation to this article, I don’t have any objections.--Ykraps (talk) 08:57, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

text: I have added a short sentence to the lead which I hope meets with your approval.--Ykraps (talk) 09:32, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Check Forester, The Age of Fighting Sail. The official dispatches regarding the Treaty of Ghent were sent on the sloop of war HMS Favourite, and had not arrived at any point in the Americas before USS President sortied. Indeed, I recall a sentence which said roughly "... the same westerly gales which held up HMS Favourite also blew the squadron under Hayes off station ...". My apologies, I ought to have addressed this point much earlier. HLGallon (talk) 10:42, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  consistency 

message: I removed the text disputing this from the article . I have not checked the sources myself, but if true, it should be included in the article. Banedon (talk) 05:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Andrew Lambert's book most certainly does say that and he cites Endymion's log. The log itself is located at the National Archives in Kew and is publicly available to anyone with a reader's ticket.[] That's all I can tell you for the moment, I'm afraid.--Ykraps (talk) 06:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've not read the sources and so can't comment. I'm going to ping  however, since (s)he is the one that disputed the accuracy of the section and added the text I removed. Banedon (talk) 06:08, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I have. "Tales of the wars; or, Naval and military chronicle: To which is prefixed, A memoir of the early life and services of William the Fourth, with an authentic portrait of His Majesty, Volume 3", published by W. M. Clark in 1838, states, "...and at 7:58 PM ceased (firing) altogether and showed, or appeared to show, a light. conceiving that the President had struck, the Endymion also ceased firing and began to bend new sails...about half-past eleven PM the Pomone came up and gained a position upon the President’s larboard quarter and luffing up, fired her starboard broadside, but did little or no damage. The President immediately shortened sail and luffed up also, as if to pour a broadside into Pomone. Instead of that however, the American frigate hailed that she had surrendered and hoisted a light in her mizzen rigging" (p.227). William James on page 364 of his book, "The Naval History of Great Britain from the Declaration of War by France in 1793 to the Accession of George IV" (1837), says that President showed or appeared to show a light and that when Pomone caught up, President hailed that she had surrendered. On page 310 of "Brett's Illustrated Naval History of Great Britain, from the Earliest Period to the Present Time: A Reliable Record of the Maritime Rise and Progress of England", it says, "...at 7:58, President ceased firing and showed, or appeared to show a light...When Pomone arrived at 11:30, President luffed up and hailed that she had surrendered". "An Inquiry Into the Merits of the Principal Naval Actions", also by William James,  says "...the Pomone getting up at 11:30 and firing a few shots, the enemy hailed to say, she had already surrendered"(Page 90). Mr Bowie, the President’s school master, at the American’s court of enquiry, stopped short of saying the President had surrendered but stated that "When the President hauled away from Endymion at 8:00, her men, to use a familiar phrase, had had enough; and her commander, fully determined upon making no further resistance". Regards --Ykraps (talk) 19:32, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did USS President surrender to HMS Endymion? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Capture of USS President's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Lambert":
From HMS Endymion (1797): Lambert (2012).
From Stephen Decatur: Lambert, 2012 pp.364–371
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:00, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Capture of USS President]] 

message: The editing of User:Dilidor has essentially removed all reference to the controversy that has been an integral part of the record of this action from the very start. This is to be regretted. The action was not a simple duel, USS President was being pursued by a squadron and this directly affected the American's tactics. Also, largely split on nationalistic grounds, the question, 'was President beaten by Endymion, or did it surrender to a superior squadron?' has been central to all subsequent enquiry. In reality the answer is yes to both versions, but many British sources emphasise the former, while American sources state the latter. This dichotomy can be traced back to the actions and statements of the commander of the President. When surrendering to the officers of Tenedos, he directed that his sword be sent to the captain of Endymion, as he had struck to her alone. This is professional courtesy as he had been outfought be Endymion, but in his later report to the US naval authorities he emphasised that he had surrendered to the superior force of a squadron. These aspects need to be addressed in any encyclopaedic article. Urselius (talk) 11:18, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy