Talk:Battle of Wołodarka

message: Halibutt, I never said "unconcluded". I said "inconclusive" in the beginning, but I later agreed on Lysy's version. Anyway, you and I already heard each other, at least as much as each of us is able to listen. If we can't agree, let's just see what others, who follow this discussion, decide on what conclusion follows from this. I will refrain from changing the outcome in the article for now but since the dispute remains unresolved, the "disputed" footnote should stay. I call on you also not to decide on your own, which version is "right" since we obviously don't agree here. If others are fine with a compromise version, let them put it into the article. There is realy nothing more to add to discussing our versions since everything is already said and not once. Rereading the discussion is enough to see everyone's point. --Irpen 19:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Guys, I'm giving up on this one. I'm sorry we were not able to work out a compromise, but hey, there's a lot more articles out there waiting ... --Lysy (talk) 21:12, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Irpen, since it's you who are disputing the outcome, please be so kind as to explain to me how is Russians failed to break Polish defence better than Russian defeat (I could agree on the latter)? Also, please provide sources that would clearly state that it was not a Polish victory. Finally, take note that all other battles in wikipedia have their outcome stated in one or two words in the battlebox, not in such a weasel-like description... I know it might be hard to accept that the Poles used to win battles, but that's how it was. Halibutt 08:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

text: No offence intended, really. It's that I got a tad tired asking for specific sources and arguments and receiving none. If you withdraw from the dispute, then we might as well remove the dispute tag - since it's not disputed anymore. However, I guess you'd rather have the tag preserved for all times, regardless of sources or lack of thereof. How about starting an official RfC process then? Halibutt 14:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Exhausted

message: Typically in a battle there are two types of outcome that matter: the tactical outcome (who inflicted more harm to the other, who holds the field, etc) and the strategic outcome (who attained more of their goals).  Usually, the two match up, as the tactical winner also wins a strategic victory.  However, there are exceptions.  For example, the Battle of Hampton Roads was tactically either a draw (neither ironclad was able to harm the other), or a Confederate victory (the CSS Virigina sank two Union frigates while suffering negligable losses).  Strategically, it was a major Union victory (the blockade of Confederate shipping remained intact, and the Virginia never engaged in battle again).
In this case, it looks to me like the outcome of the battle was a tactical victory for Poland (they kept the Russian forces from moving forward) but strategically a draw or defeat (only a delay). --Carnildo 19:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The strategic situation is better described in the article on Kiev Operation (though the very outcome of the whole operation is also disputable...). Halibutt 20:26, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Types of victory

message: 134  English hits for Wołodarka, 432 for Volodarka. That's a genereal search, including Wiki and it's mirros, but a move may be considered - comments? Please use the proper procedure if moving pages.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is almost half a year that I requested the names of this and other places in Davies' "White Eagle, Red Star" book. Wolodarka is not the only spurious name from the battles of the PSW. See :Template:Campaignbox Polish-Bolshevik War. How about Wasylkowce and Nowochwastów --Irpen 03:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With Google Print age upon us, I'd have though you had found them by now. Unfortunately, it appears this one is not indexed yet, but my Book search found three using the V term, and none with the W one. Feel free to do the comparison for the other two - I'd have no idea what their other variant may be.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wołodarka vs Volodarka 

message: For a countless time may I request my opponents to tell me what outcome of the battle is claimed by Davies in his "White Eagle-Red Star". --Irpen 08:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For a countless time I reply that I don't have the book by Davies nor am I able to get it any time soon. (BTW, if we are returning to this discussion - there are two questions for you above, both of them still needing a reply). Halibutt 12:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Since I indeed had the Polish version at hand when I borrowed it from my university's library. Books are expensive here, you know... Then I turned it back, no conspiracy here. Currently I have to pay them some money before I'm again able to borrow books from them - which might take some time. As to the questions - indeed, if one is to take your perhaps it was unwinnable comment seriously then indeed you replied to one of my questions. The plea for sources was not satisfied so far, if memory serves me. Halibutt 01:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to spend time repeating what I already said. Reread the talk above as well as my explanation at Ezhiki's talk page (must be in archives now) and at your RfA. The key word here is "your own interpretation" because the source that calls it a Polish victory is unreliable and other sources you cite don't call it as such. I said it all multiple times and I will not be doing it again. When anyone finds what Davies said, that would bring new light to this discussion. That's why I stopped by to repeat this request. As for the rest, to mull this all over is useless. --Irpen 01:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Better late than never: I can't find a mention of this battle in Davies. On p.122-123 he describes events from ~May 20 to early June, but nothing about this battle.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The book is very old ? Norman Davies a beginner? That's interesting information? Dr. Dan 13:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the Skirmish at Volodarka is newer than the Torah as well. But when thirty-five year old histories by noted scholars, are challenged with newspaper articles as reliable sources, we're in real trouble. And just what do you mean by a "beginner" anyway? Dr. Dan 18:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Davies

message: From Collection of Polish military comminiques, 1919-1921, "O niepodległą i granice", Wyższa Szkoła Humanistyczna, Pułtusk, 1999. Wołodarka (also in index reffered to as 'Czołodarka') mentioned in comm from 29th (Polish cavalry in that area got an order to attack), 31st (reproting on 29th events: Polish cavalry suffered a heavy attack by cavalry and infantry w/ artillery support, flanked, forced to retreat, suffered ~ 20 casualties and ~30 wounded, counterattacked (by 4. szw. 1. pu.) , caused heavy casualties, forced the enemy back, took prisoners from 6 div. of Sov. cav.) and 3rd June (Soviet forces spotted in the region). So without a doubht there was a cavalry engagement there.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any English source spelling it through "W" and with "ł"? --Irpen 19:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you are conceding this battle is no OR and indeed took place and was recorded in verifiable sources, and we can move to discussing the proper name now? Please feel free to start RM or discussion on it at any time, currently both battle of Wołodarka and battle of Volodarka seem acceptable to me.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the benefit of Irpen, let me give you an answer to the question you posed way back on September 19, 2005, on this talk page. I have the "White Eagle, Red Star", in my possession (I fortunately don't owe the library overdue fines and can still borrow books). Davies does not call this event a Polish victory (tactical or otherwise), he doesn't use Wołodarka, he doesn't even mention an event called the "The Battle of Wołodarka" at all. Thought you'd finally like to have an answer to your question. Dr. Dan 14:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: finally

message: For WP:POLAND. Agree with previous milhist review, the citations are insufficient. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 20:01, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class review: failed