Talk:Physical attractiveness/Archive 1

message: :categorized by Dpr 01:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Older comments

message: Did any one know in malaysia, people consider small eyes is pretty??? That is because once I've in there once they the tour giude have said that. Seems to be more common for guy that small eyes is more appealing.  Anyone have more information on this?!
:Good question. Anyone? --Dpr 01:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Malaysia/small eyes

message: Sexual attraction, as does Beauty, has a large section on physical and other features correlated with attractiveness. I suggest that this is a violation of the no duplicate articles rule of Wiki and producing a waste of effort on two projects which should be combined (somehow) as one. Execute some kind of merge? --Dpr 08:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "[[Sexual attraction]]" article--content coordination

message: Perhaps some pictures to visually demonstrate this subject? Squash 05:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: There is no mention of women's fashions throughout history, it's all about guys. And also "Having tanned skin is viewed as naturally attractive, and as a potential sign that the person takes foreign holidays". Where the hell are you getting this from? It is such an unintelligent statement.
:Attempted to fix this somewhat. --Dpr 01:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote the section on historical perceptions on male attractiveness but I dont know very much about the female side of things, I was hoping someone with more background knowledge of that area could write a corresponding section on womenRusty2005 21:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical Variances

message: The use of body products, such as perfumes, colognes, skin creams, is something we may want to add, especially in regards to cultural and historic variances. --Dpr 03:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Body products

message: Can this be moved to a separate article? --Dpr 01:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hairstyles/What they indicate

message: Is dimples considered a determinant of female beauty? I wasn't sure...but I guess all of you guys agree with me.  It's been there for more than a month.  (Kyla 17:57, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dimples 

message: :Hairless and smooth skin: feminine
This, as a component of "other determinants of female attractiveness" was removed...while possibly unsourced, it is surely true, with very widespread applicability...should it not be returned to the text? Thanks --Dpr 03:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hairless and smooth skin

message: I think this article perspective does not represent the population as a whole. While some of the ideas are popularly true, that does not make it suitable to be put in this article. The majority of article writers are of a certain culture, which would mean that the article would represent what this certain culture thinks. For example, lack of body hair is considered attractive in the western society but not so much in other parts of the world(no evidence). We sohuld stick to general understanding of attractiveness with respect to certain properties like youthfulness and fertility. Sincee these are commonly shared across the entire species, not just a culture. -Ayoyo
:This article, like any Wikipedia article, should report on as many aspects of a phenomenon as possible, in other words, presenting information about the multiple, varying perspectives on physical attractiveness. In other words, we should provide approximate (perhaps very rough proportions) and the various proclivities common to each. Culturally-specific preferences should be reported, but mentioned as such. As the article currently does, we should describe (near) universal preferences, as well as trends specific to different cultures. --Dpr 21:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias, perception and personal preferences 

message: Eurasian beauty is a factor of female beauty.  Take a look at the external links that says eurasian the right mix? (Jessica Liao 23:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's what the facts say, that's what we should be including. Skinnyweed 00:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eurasian beauty 

message: == Characteristics of Beauty and Attractiveness ==
A study performed in the United Kingdom showed a very strong and direct correlation between the level of each woman's estrogen and how attractive, healthy and feminine they were found to be, showing that fertility is related to attractiveness. To scientists, a convenient marker for physical attractiveness in people is symmetry, as measured by taking calipers to body parts as wrists, elbows, and feet to see how closely the pairs match. In both sexes, relatively low asymmetry seems to be associated with increased genetic, physical, and mental health, including cognitive skill and IQ. Also, symmetric men appear to be more muscular and vigorous, have a lower basal metabolic rate, and may be larger in body size than asymmetric men. Symmetry is a major component of developmental health and overall condition and it appears to be heritable.  Researchers also found a strong correlation between asymmetry and romantic jealousy, suggesting that asymmetrical lovers may suspect they're somehow less desirable.
----
[some of these statements are sweeping and misleading, or outright false. At least, that's the impression I get reading some of the literature. For example, reading a metanalysis by Langlois et al. it is claimed that there is a very modest correlation between attractiveness and IQ but they are careful to not posit causality e.g. between a fitness-related evolutionary theory and socialization theory. From what I've read it seems the socialization theory is more likely given the magnitude of the difference is significantly larger in children, and from studies demonstrating biases of teachers paying more attention to and expecting more from attractive children; and subsequent studies priming higher positive expectations by administration of a false IQ test (the teachers pay more attention to the student who according to the test is "most likely to bloom" and subsequently score higher on a real test than controls)
The above statement also lacks context. Almost all attractiveness studies compare a least attractive group to a most attractive group and there isn't a lot of data demonstrating that people of medium attractiveness are fundamentally the same, so it's difficult to disentangle what is a "homeliness penalty" and what is a "beauty benefit" and how it applies to various situations and stations in life.
The statement about health is outright false if it's inferred by facial attractiveness. From Langlois et al. 1998: "we found that adolescent facial attractiveness was unrelated to adolescent health for either males or females, and was not predictive of health at the later times". Although there is a misattribution of health in line with the "attractiveness halo". Also see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16187849 and commentary. There is some discussion of tradeoffs in health and attractiveness which highlights a common misunderstanding of "fitness" as optimizing in a way similar to social darwinism, or superiority of the individual (psedudoscience), although it may turn out that there is a signal or signals that in some way honestly advertise reproductive or genetic fitness.
Regarding symmetry, see http://cogprints.org/4349/ It appears that the relationship between symmetry and attractiveness isn't as strong as implied. Although according to the article there is a much stronger relationship between symmetry and health. (also see various alternative or complementary theories about attractiveness such as averageness, hormonal theories and so on).
In my opinion the entire original article is filled with smaller mistakes and misleading statements like this and should be rewritten by someone with real expertise. This isn't a specific complaint about wikipedia as the literature itself seems to be frequently contradictory, and many of the conclusions in published articles are nothing more than speculation.]
== Historically Beautiful Features ==
According to evolutionary psychology, the attraction to bodily characteristics are said to be biologically innate. Early humans were attracted to particular physical traits in the opposite sex. An attractive individual is perceived in having good genes. The classical female figure suggested fertility. For women, fuller breasts and hips 1/3 wider than waist or a waist to hip ratio of 0.7 is considered the ideal. A smaller waist suggests youth and greater fertility. Similarly, the early male physique implied protector and provider. For men, a more muscular physique with wider shoulders and a waist to hip ratio of 0.9 is considered more attractive. A larger waist would signal unhealthy genes. We have inherited the physical and psychological characteristics of the winners of this beauty contest. It makes sense that men should care more about the way women look than vice versa, because youth and fitness matter so much more in female fertility. And while male preferences do vary with time and place there's also some remarkable underlying consistency.  For instance, it has been found that the waist-to-hip ratio was the most important factor in women's attractiveness to men in 18 cultures that have been studied. Regardless of whether lean or voluptuous women happen to be in fashion, the favored shape remains a waist/hip ratio of about 0.7.
== History of Interracial Couples ==
In America’s history, interracial couples were frowned upon, and there were even laws in the 18th century, 19th century and 20th century against miscegenation. However, as it becomes more socially acceptable, every year there are more interracial marriages and relationships, especially between whites and African Americans. No matter which partner is white or black, the body type preference of their corresponding mate is the same: black men prefer a fuller-bodied woman, and black women see fuller-bodied women as more beautiful than a thinner body type. Even more interesting, African American women tend to prefer a larger body type for themselves as well. White women see a much thinner body as being preferable.
== Nomenclature ==
"The term African American no longer denotes only those people originating from Africa, but the black population in general, including Jamaican’s Haitian’s etc."
This is rediculous and simply untrue...African American denotes those of African heritage, from the United States of America specifically. The term 'black' can be extended to Jamaicans, Haitans, etc.160.39.100.22
"Accordingly, the term white does not only designate people of Caucasian or Anglo-Saxon background, but any person with light skin color."
This is also ludicrous as there are African Americans with very light/white skin color, who are African American or identify as black.
The black and white disparity is far more loose and complicated than these assertions, and further demonstrates why this article should be removed. Such assumptions and allegations on the basis of race will never be accurate because the idea of race is arguably a social construct and cannot truly determine the individual actions of people.160.39.100.22
== Body-Image ==
=== Why is it related to body-type preference? ===
Body image is closely related to body-type preference because if women are happier with a certain size body in general, then there will be more women shaped like that. As a result, it would be evolutionarily desirable to prefer a certain shape if there are more of that type available. 
=== Which races are happier with their bodies? ===
"Research often indicates that body image disturbance, particularly with regard to thinness ideals, is more of a problem for white women. Some research concludes that African American women and adolescents are, overall, more satisfied with their bodies than are their White counterparts. Although many black women do express an interest and concern with how they look, particularly in terms of hair style and skin color, the majority of African-American respondents in studies do not judge themselves in terms of their weight. They do not believe that as females they are valued solely on the basis of their bodies and not the merits of their minds. According to the girls in the studies, being thick, curvaceous with large hips, a rounded backside, and ample thighs, was seen as the most desirable body shape. Being so fat that you have no shape anymore was considered unattractive."
1. What research indicates such findings?
2. Which African Americans were included in this study (Age, socioeconomic  background, geographic location?)
3. Can this truly be applied to the entire population of African American people?
Race cannot be the only determinant of body image. How would an African American in completely white surroundings differ from this study? This article makes it seem as if no change would occur. African Americans think one way and whites the other, which is racist in itself. I cannot imagine this to be accurate, since there are anorexic and bulemic black women and men. This entire article is based on inaccurate generalizations.160.39.100.22
=== Why are African-American women more satisfied with their bodies? ===
Researchers suggest that African American female's positive body image is linked to their positive sense of racial or social identity. The Black family, extended family and the Black people's community are critical players in this process in that they convey through their words and actions, a positive sense of Black identity to young girls which mediates the values and attitudes of the dominant culture concerning women's role and body image. Black girls' gender identity is shaped as it intersects with girls’ race and social class to produce a different sense of gender identity that challenges dominant white culture's definition of womanhood. Young girls receive positive emotional support from their mothers concerning their bodies and their ability to succeed in life through a process we label "internalized self assessment". Wider contextual factors within the Black Community/culture, from peers to extended family send specific messages to young women regarding their bodies that are in stark contrast to White Western norms of beauty.
== Factors Influencing Body-Type Preference ==
=== History ===
Eldridge Cleaver, a black Muslim believing in the doctrines of Malcolm X, wrote a book in which the last chapter was titled “White Woman, Black Man.” Cleaver explains that Black men covet white women because of their hatred for the white man’s injustice against them. He explains that the Black man’s lust for white women is due to the self-hate of black skin which the white man has instilled in the Black men of America. Cleaver also explains that he feared Black women because in seeing their strength he was forced to see his own faults. Any lack person who follows the doctrines of Eldridge Cleaver and other historically black Muslims may still hold the same beliefs.
=== Heritage ===
Researchers found that Americans showed a strong correlation between their body image size and their ethnic and gender background. Black women were more satisfied with a larger body image size than White women. However, this may stem from the fact that when Black women were the only people bringing in money (as maids, before black men had equal employment opportunities) after emancipation, so a larger woman meant a woman who had more money to provide for a family. In Latin America, larger women are considered healthier and more attractive, perhaps because larger build is more favorable for child-bearing (another argument from studies). Researchers presume body-shape preferences are affected by several social factors and in the Arab nation of Qatar, women prefer slightly heavier women and men to thin ones. For the most part, the results of a study in Qatar backed up the hypotheses. 
=== Education ===
Higher education is directly proportional to the selection of a thinner female body shape. Lastly, employment status also influenced the ratings. Employed women were more likely to prefer thinner females and heavier males. This is possibly because people are prone to liking a person when they believe they are of higher status than the other. Therefore, if a woman is employed and thinner than her mate, she will be looked upon favorably by her peers and she will look more favorably upon herself.
== Attraction/Body-Type Preference Studies ==
=== Weight===
The majority of African American men prefer an average body type and weight in females. Their preferred weight for a mate was 133 lbs. White men are equally split between those who preferred slightly thin females and average females. Their preferred weight for a mate was also lower, averaging about 125 lbs. Results of the women showed an overwhelming preference for slightly thin males. 85% of White women and 80% of African American women found slightly thin males more attractive. 
=== Body Shape ===
White men find large buttock and wide hips less important features of attractiveness than their African American counterparts. White men find slim figures to be very important, while African American men find pretty toes to be very attractive and more important to them than White men.  Women were also questioned for what they found important in attractive men. White females find light eyes and skin color to be more important than African American females, who prefer full lips and muscular legs. 
The study speculates that these standards of attractiveness are very race-specific and these characteristics are more prevalent in the members of their own races than that of others. They found that physical characteristics that were critical in defining the differences between races were considered more important than those that did not. Further questions posed by this study concern whether or not people judge other races to the same standards of attractiveness as they do their own.
=== BMI ===
Average American body mass index (BMI) measurements show that black females have the highest BMI of any other racial group. Also, they have the highest female incidence of obesity. White women, however, have the lowest BMI, and the lowest incidence of obesity.
Where are the references?????160.39.100.22
=== Weight versus BMI ===
Most people expect a much larger gap in weight than the result of the study (a mere 8 pounds). However, the real gap in body type is shown in the BMI statistics, which shows that it is not just a weight difference, but an entire body composition. This explains how black women are built differently, with wider hips and buttocks. It is not necessarily fat, though, since muscularity is not a factor in a BMI measurement.
==Western preference for tanned skin?==
I found this statement highly questionable:
: In the 20th and 21st century Western world, tanned skin has been considered highly attractive for both men and women. A theory for why this is so is that during the 20th century it became possible for those with higher incomes to travel to warmer climates during the winter. A tan served as evidence of one's vacation, and thus became a symbol of status.
(The article then goes on to mention the preference for lighter skin in Asian cultures.) I don't know where the above statement comes from and whether its at all backed by research - the statement is uncited, like everything else in this article. The idea that there is a universal preference in the contemporary Western world for tanned skin on otherwise light-skinned people strikes me as an erroneous statement, and rather dated. Its true that from the 1950s to the mid-1970s, a "heathy tan" was largely considered desirable, and that this ideal still holds true in some segment of the population in contemporary Western countries. However, a light, even pale or "alabaster" look has also become popular, brought on by the decline of the 1960s-1970s "natural look" ideal, publicity that tanning is very unhealthy for the skin and causes it to age more quickly, as well as the peripheral influence of punk and gothic fashion. Uma Thurman, Michelle Pfeiffer, Kate Moss, Claire Danes, and Natalie Portman are just a few examples of models and actresses that have never been photographed with any kind of deep tan, and have skin tones that range from light to downright pale. These are all women who are considered extremely beautiful by a large number of people in the contemporary Western world - this would seem to be evidence that contradicts the idea of a generalized preference for tanned skin over untanned skin. Iamcuriousblue 07:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This reads like original research, in which case it should be on Wikisources, not here.  If not, the title is too long for anyone to find and you should consider merging with some appropriate existing article. --David Woolley 14:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attractiveness, Self-Image and Body-Type Preferences among Whites and African Americans 

message: I found this statement highly questionable:
: In the 20th and 21st century Western world, tanned skin has been considered highly attractive for both men and women. A theory for why this is so is that during the 20th century it became possible for those with higher incomes to travel to warmer climates during the winter. A tan served as evidence of one's vacation, and thus became a symbol of status.
(The article then goes on to mention the preference for lighter skin in Asian cultures.) I don't know where the above statement comes from and whether its at all backed by research - the statement is uncited, like everything else in this article. The idea that there is a universal preference in the contemporary Western world for tanned skin on otherwise light-skinned people strikes me as an erroneous statement, and rather dated. Its true that from the 1950s to the mid-1970s, a "heathy tan" was largely considered desirable, and that this ideal still holds true in some segment of the population in contemporary Western countries. However, a light, even pale or "alabaster" look has also become popular, brought on by the decline of the 1960s-1970s "natural look" ideal, publicity that tanning is very unhealthy for the skin and causes it to age more quickly, as well as the peripheral influence of punk and gothic fashion. Uma Thurman, Michelle Pfeiffer, Kate Moss, Claire Danes, and Natalie Portman are just a few examples of models and actresses that have never been photographed with any kind of deep tan, and have skin tones that range from light to downright pale. These are all women who are considered extremely beautiful by a large number of people in the contemporary Western world - this would seem to be evidence that contradicts the idea of a generalized preference for tanned skin over untanned skin. Iamcuriousblue 07:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Western preference for tanned skin?

message: “Attractive Body.” exRx.net.
Corbett, Melanie (2004 April 19). “The [Racial] Dating Game.” The Stanford Daily. <http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=13823&repository=0001_article>.
Hesse-Biber , Sharlene Nagy, Stephanie A. Howling, Patricia Leavy and Meg Lovejoy. “Racial Identity and the Development of Body Image Issues
among African American Adolescent Girls.” The Qualitative Report. Volume 9.
Musaiger, Abdulrahman O., Nora E. Shahbeek, and Maryama Al-Mannai. 
 “The Role of Social Factors and Weight Status in Ideal Body-Shape Preferences as Perceived by Arab Women.”
Jackson, Linda A. and Olivia D. Mcgill. “Body Type Preferences and Body Characteristics Associated With Attractive and Unattractive Bodies by African Americans and Anglo Americans.”
Sheridan, Bridget. “Scientific Formula Determines Most Desirable Body Shape.”
</blockquote>
----
:This reads like original research, in which case it should be on Wikisources, not here.  If not, the title is too long for anyone to find and you should consider merging with some appropriate existing article. --David Woolley 14:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I'm removing the following external links:
*The Mathematical formula for the perfect face 
*Physical Features: Age & Sex This website discusses the physical differences between men and women in terms of how the body naturally masculinizes and feminizes human faces.
*Whitening of Human Teeth
They seem to consist mostly of unverified original research, and do not seem to be notable proponents of points of view discussed in the article, so I think they meet the criteria in Wikipedia:External_links#Links_to_normally_avoid.
--Allen 01:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  external links 

message: Physical_attractiveness#Universal_correlates_of_beauty is an immense POV violation only found in wide distribution on White supremacist websites and forms.  Trust me; I used to lurk on them.  Their idea is that European and Asian relations are superior than European and African relations.  Many of these Neonazis are Midwestern Americans part American Indian or Central Asian (Volga Germans), or Amerasian, or Lapp/Finn/Samoyed/Uralic etc in origin and think they are more Caucasian than Ancient Romans.  Maybe it is just me, but I find that a wee bit repulsive and downright offencive.  I wonder how they can masturbate to hentai and think that Cleopatra is some impure European because of Semitic descent, or that Nefertiti was not beautiful, whilst Eurasians are "hot and sexy".  I guess WWII Axis Powers in Germany and Japan have developed a "beautiful relationship".  Count me out.  Your skin tone cannot mask your barbarisms.  Lord Loxley 23:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazis controlling this article: 

message: The central idea of that article indirectly indicated that people of European descent are consider as the ideal/propotype of beauty: ex "It should be pointed out however that people in East Asia do not realize the reasons behind it and might argue they consider large eyes attractive simply because this feature is more rare among Asian populations.", "In fact, "rounder" face and "slender" eyes, which are physical symbols of Northern Asians (Mongolians, Northern Chinese, and Koreans, the dominant cultural presence at the time)" or the idea of chaging one's skin colour among African or South Asian descent is simply becaues of the fairness of the European Descent, but not because of other factor such as economical pupose or prejudice and such.   This is section is very bias toward the idea of racial stereotype (ie Asian should have slanted eyes and flat nose or otherwised he is either part Caucasian or he/she want to look Western or even go to pastic surgery in order to reach that "beauty ideal") and not considering that this article (or least this section) and fully consider for different cultures or other purpose.  This is the reason I think we need a NPOV tag on this section of the whole article.  --MeowKun 15:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Section "Universal Correlate of Beauty" is NPOV