Talk:Utigurs

message: A heavy overlap, as well as divirgence. The Onogurs page starts "The Onogurs, also known as (Bulgar) Utigurs" . And "Utigurs" starts: "Utigur is the name used by Procopius Caesariensis and his continuators Agathias and Menander in the 5th and 6th centuries to refer to the Bulgar-Huns of Onoguria". In other words, the subjects semm to be essentially the same. Lothar Klaic (talk) 05:30, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: These articles both are in great need of improvement and not merging.  The Onoghurs were not also known as the Utrighurs.  There were two different tribal groups that happened to both be Oghuric Turkic.  --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 22:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I think Lothar has a point. Utigurs (not utrighurs) does seem judging by the history to be nothing more than another way of saying Onogurs, at least we can say they were in the same places at the same times and did the same things being led by the same people, but until someone publishes a book on the Utigur/Onogur question I think it will not fit wiki policy to merge in case it is taken as original research.62.255.75.224 (talk) 23:27, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article is basically wrong or speculative or pushing a certain POV on the subject and not a good source upon which a merge could be decided.  Saragurs (Yellow Oghurs), Onogurs (Ten Oghurs), Kutrigurs (Nine Oghurs), and Utigurs (Thirty Oghurs) are listed as separate tribes in other sources.  These were all supposedly Oghur Turkic speaking peoples, or what Browning refers to as "Bulgar-Huns".  It would be better to consider Peter B. Golden as a source.  --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 05:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Utigurs-Onogurs merge?

message: Stacy, I am really interested in the source for Kutri meaning 9 and Uti meaning 30, can you point me to some more reading on this topic? Is this an area of your special interest?Kaz 09:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the information, I think you should put the references you provided into Etymology sections in the relevant articles.62.255.75.224 (talk) 19:07, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tribe names 

message: Just want to put a reminder to Editors here that the Unogundur, Uturghurs/Kutrigur and Utigur/Onogur question is not a simple one. I invite anyone who has references to share them here for discussion. 62.255.75.224 (talk) 10:43, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Unogundur, Uturghurs/Kutrigur and Utigur/Onogur Question 

message: Since Utigurs were Hunno-Bulgars this paper  probably explains their language :
according to Antoaneta Granberg : " the data is insufficient to clearly distinguish Huns, Avars and Bulgars one from another"  - introduction, the second paragraph :  https://www.academia.edu/683028/Classification_of_the_Hunno-Bulgarian_Loan-Words_in_Slavonic  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.254.217.159 (talk) 14:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: Identification Uti - > Yuezhi is made by renowned scientists   Edwin G. Pulleyblank and Yury Zuev. Putting such tags as "unreliable source" here is vandalization of the article. The work of Zuev is available on the net for free reading:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/29Huns/Zuev/ZuevEarly1En.htm
page 38: 
 This name is repeated in the name of an Utigur queen, Akagas, in the report of the Byzantian ambassador to the Türks Valentine in 576 [Menandr, 1861, p. 418, Chavannes, 1903, p. 240]. The Utigurs of Menandr are Uti, associated with Aorses of the Pliny “Natural history" (VI, 39). The word Uti was a real proto-type of a transcription Uechji < ngiwat-tie < uti [Pulleyblank, 1966, p. 18]. In parallel, a tribe Uti existed in the east, in the valley of the river Edzinagol and lake Sihai and Salty (Sogo-nur and Gashiun-nur respectively).
page 62 : 
The Utigurs of this message (J. R. Hamilton identifies this name with the name of a tribe Utiger in the Rashid ad-Din list of nine Uigur tribes) [Hamilton, 1962, p. 35, 38, 42] are mentioned by Pliny (VI, 39) as the Uti tribe, associated with Aorses. E. Pulleyblank identifies Uties as Uechji (Pin. Yuezhi) tribe [Puleyblank, 1966, p. 18]. There are parallel records about Uechji (Pin. Yuezhi)/Uti far in the east, in the basin of the Edzin-gol.
the work of Pulleyblank is published in magazine which is paid, but everyone can read it with Jitstore for free.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.152.143.113 (talk) 19:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the reliable sources page about identifying reliable sources. Note that: Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. And when you say that Putting such tags as "unreliable source" here is vandalization of the article, note that the  documentation says that, This tag is intended to be used when a statement is sourced but it is questionable whether the source used is reliable for supporting the statement. This is just one editors way of telling other editors that s/he thinks that one source might be unreliable. Please don't think that this is vandilisation of the article. Thank you.  Seagull123  Φ  22:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia talk pages are not used for useless commenting like on a blog or forum, and multiple WP:SOCK accounts are not supported.--Crovata (talk) 08:56, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims for outdated, minor or fringe theories are unwarranted.   

message: Bulgar Vund or Utigur  (vh'ndur, Vanand) is the name used by historians and geographers like Moses Horenaci, Procopius Caesariensis and later by Agathias of Mirena, Menander Protector, and Theophylact Simocatta in the 6th century to refer the eastern branch of the Hunno-Bulgars who were the successors of the Hunnic empire along the coasts of the Black Sea in Patria Onoguria."The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", 2013, Hyun Jin Kim, page 57: "After a period of chaos following Attila's death, dualism again reasserted itself in the succession of Dengitzik and Ernak (west and east respectively). The successor to the Hunnic Empire in the east, or rather probably the coninuation, also featured two wings, the Kutrigurs(west) and the Utigurs(east), ruled presumably by Ernak's descendants.", https://books.google.hr/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=falseByzantium: The Imperial Centuries, Romilly James,  page 45 : " The Bulgarians seem to have been in origin Huns, who may well have formed part, and survived as a rump, of the hordes of Attila in the fifth century. ... the so called Onogur Bulgarians are found in large numbers somewhere between the Kuban and the Volga rivers..." https://books.google.hr/books?id=O5JqH_NXQBsC&pg=PA45&dq=onogur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBDgoahUKEwistou42ZPJAhWGWiwKHUbUDxI#v=onepage&q=onogur&f=false"The Empire of the Steppes", René Grousset, page 79: " Other Hun clans survived north of the Black Sea in two hordes : the Kutrigur Huns, who led a nomadic life northwest of the of Azov and the Utigur or Utrigur Huns, whose haunts were by the mouth of the Don."The Cambridge Medieval History,  volumes 1-5, " ... Kotrigur and Utigur Huns...",   https://books.google.bg/books?id=9lHeh36S8ooC&pg=PT582&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgeahUKEwid_pDUkpbJAhUBCBoKHQ0XB1M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false Justinian and the Later Roman Empire, John W. Barker, (1966, University of Wisconsin press)   page 199: " ...Utigur Huns...",
 https://books.google.bg/books?id=LiJljEXvwAoC&pg=PA199&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBzgeahUKEwid_pDUkpbJAhUBCBoKHQ0XB1M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false The late antique historians  use the names of Huns, Bulgars, Kutrigurs and Utigurs as interchangeable terms,"The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", Hyun Jin Kim, page 256: " Thus in our sources the names Kutrigur, Bulgar and Hun are used interchangeably and refer in all probability not to separate groups but one group.", https://books.google.hr/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=falseCafer Saatchi , Early Mediaeval identity of the Bulgarians, page 3 : " The early Byzantine texts use the names of Huns, Bulgarians, Kutrigurs and Utrigurs as interchangeable terms. There the Bulgarians are represented as identical, they are a part of Huns or at least have something common with them. The khans Avtiochol and Irnik, listed in the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans today are identified with Attila and Ernach.", http://www.academia.edu/10894065/Early_Mediaeval_identity_of_the_BulgariansClassification of the Hunno-Bulgarian Loan-Words in Slavic, Antoaneta Granberg, Introduction : " (2) the data are insufficient to clearly distinguish Huns, Avars and Bulgars one from another;" https://www.academia.edu/683028/Classification_of_the_Hunno-Bulgarian_Loan-Words_in_Slavonic"SOME REMARKS ON THE CHINESE "BULGAR"", 2004, SANPING CHEN:  " In fact contemporary European sources kept equating the Bulgars with the Huns. At the very least, the Hun-Bulgar connection was much more tangible than the Hun-Xiongnu identification. "  http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/Sanping_Chen_SOME_REMARKS_ON_THE_CHINESE_BULGARIAN.pdf"History of the Later Roman Empire", J.B. Bury: " The Kotrigurs, who were a branch of the Hunnic race, occupied the steppes of South Russia, from the Don to the Dniester, and were probably closely allied to the Bulgarians or Onogundurs — the descendants of Attila's Huns — who had their homes in Bessarabia and Walachia. They were a formidable people and Justinian had long ago taken precautions to keep them in check, in case they should threaten to attack the Empire, though it was probably for the Roman cities of the Crimea, Cherson and Bosporus, that he feared, rather than for the Danubian provinces. As his policy on the Danube was to use the Lombards as a check on the Gepids, so his policy in Scythia was to use another Hunnic people, the Utigurs, as a check on the Kotrigurs. The Utigurs lived beyond the Don, on the east of the Sea of Azov, and Justinian cultivated their friendship by yearly gifts. ", http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/BURLAT/20*.html#ref39 Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire, Jennifer Lawler, " Utigurs - Hunnic tribe that lived on the east steppes of Don, related to the Bulgars", стр. 296  https://books.google.hr/books?id=sEWeCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA296&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAjgUahUKEwi427LD25zHAhVEECwKHc3wDFQ#v=onepag e&q=utigurs&f=false"Great Walls and Linear Barriers", Peter Spring, " In 460 the Huns split into the Onogurs, Utigurs and Kotrigurs.",  стр. 199 https://books.google.hr/books?id=OfmxBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA199&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgoahUKEwia2MPL75zHAhVEhywKHcRYDHg#v=onepage&q=utigurs&f=false"A history of the First Bulgarian Empire", "Book I THE CHILDREN OF THE HUNS " Steven Runciman, стр. 5, " On Attila’s death, his empire crumbled. His people, who had probably been only a conglomeration of kindred tribes that he had welded together, divided again into these tribes; and each went its own way. One of these tribes was soon to be known as the Bulgars."  http://www.promacedonia.org/en/sr/sr_1_1.htmThe Huns of Justinian: Byzantium, Utigur and Kutrigur,  Joseph Ricci (2013) http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/94441061/huns-justinian-byzantium-utigur-kutrigur thus prompting some modern historians to coin the term Hunno-Bulgars.Pritsak, 1982: pages: 435, 448-449История на българската държава през средните векове, Том I. История на Първото българско царство. Част I. Епоха на хуно-българското надмощие, Васил Н. Златарски  According to Procopius, Agathias and Menander Utigurs and their relatives Kutrigurs were Huns, they were dressed in the same way and had the same language.O. Maenchen-Helfen, The World of the Huns, page 378 : " In one instance we are explicitly told that the Kutrigur and Utigur, called Huns by Procopius, Agathias, and Menander, were of the same stock, dressed in the same way, and had the same language. ", http://www.kroraina.com/huns/mh/mh_1.html"The Hunno-Bulgarian Language, 2008,  Antoaneta Granberg,  Göteborg University: " The Hunno-Bulgarian language was formed on the Northern and Western borders of China in the 3rd-5th c. BC. The analysis of the loan-words in Slavonic language shows the presence of direct influences of various language-families: Turkic, Mongolian, Chinese and Iranian. The Huns and Proto-Bulgarians spoke the same language, different from all other "barbarian" languages. When Turkic tribes appeared at the borders of the Chinese empire in the 6th c., the Huns and Proto-Bulgarians were no longer there. It is important to note that Turkic does contain Hunno-Bulgarian loans, but that these were received through Chinese intermediary, e.g. Hunnic ch’eng-li ‘sky, heaven’ was borrowed from Chinese as tängri in Turkic. The Hunno-Bulgarian language exhibits non-Turkic and non-Altaic features. Altaic has no initial consonant clusters, while Hunno-Bulgarian does. Unlike Turkic and Mongolian, Hunno-Bulgarian language has no initial dental or velar spirants. Unlike Turkic, it has initial voiced b-: bagatur (a title), boyla (a title). Unlike Turkic, Hunno-Bulgarian has initial n-, which is also encountered in Mongolian: Negun, Nebul (proper names). In sum, Hunno-Bulgarian language has no consistent set of features that unite it with either Turkic or Mongolian. Neither can it be related to Sino-Tibetian languages, because it obviously has no monosyllabic word structure.",  http://www.centralasien.dk/joomla/images/journal/DSCA2008.pd Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were in all likelihood identical with the Bulgars.The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe, Hyun Jin Kim, (2013, Cambridge University Press) page 141: "Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were in all likelihood identical with the Bulgars",   https://books.google.hr/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=false​The Age of Justinian, J. A. S. Evans, (1996) page 91: "... Utigur or Onogur Bulgars",  https://books.google.hr/books?id=jjSDAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&dq=onogur+utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2uvnJvvbKAhUBWhQKHWHOB-MQ6AEITjAJ#v=onepage&q=onogur%20utigur&f=falseJustinian, John Moorhead, 1994, Taylor&Francis,  https://books.google.hr/books?id=aacuAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT180&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2tIS7yvbKAhWKPxQKHf-bD7M4ChDoAQhPMAk#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=falseByzantium in the Seventh Century, J. F. Haldon, page 47 : "...the Onogur Huns or Bulgars...", https://books.google.co.il/books?id=pSHmT1G_5T0C&pg=PA47&dq=onogur&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=hun&f=falseEarly Medieval Europe, Roger Collins, (1991) page 206: "...Utigur and Kutrigur Bulgars... ",   https://books.google.bg/books?id=ZukcBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEYQ6AEwCDgUahUKEwjDt-3RkZbJAhUBVxoKHW-tBaQ#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=falseThe Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare, Volume 2, Philip Sabin, Hans van Wees, Michael Whitby, pages 240,248: " Utigur Bulgars",  https://books.google.bg/books?id=4aX-W6AVNv8C&pg=PA606&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFAQ6AEwCTgeahUKEwid_pDUkpbJAhUBCBoKHQ0XB1M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=falseArmies of the Dark Ages, Ian Heath, ( 1979), page 53: " The Onogurs appeared after the disintegration of the Hunnic empire,...The Onogur tribes toghether with the Kutrigur and Utigur Huns, ....Once independent they adopted the name Bulgar...",  https://books.google.bg/books?id=qKdkCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA53&dq=utigur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBDhuahUKEwj7-an4lZbJAhUBgBoKHT4fD4M#v=onepage&q=utigur&f=false  Many historians consider Utigurs and Kutrigurs as successors of the Hunnic empire  in the east, on the territory of modern-day Ukraine, where the Huns retreated after the death of Attila.The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 4, Edward Gibbon, page 537: " And both Procopius and Agathias represent Kotrigurs and Utigurs as tribes of Huns. There can be no doubt Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Bulgars belong to the same race as the Huns of Attila and spoke tongues closely related, - were in fact Huns. They had all been under Attila's dominion", https://books.google.bg/books?id=j83oF6YQI68C&dq=utigurs&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=false"The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", 2013, Hyun Jin Kim, https://books.google.bg/books?id=fX8YAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&source=gbs_toc_r&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=utigurs&f=false, page 57, page 138, page 140-141, page 254 : " That the Utigurs and Kutrigurs formed the two main wings of the same steppe confederacy is proved by the foundation legend told by Procopius regarding the ethnogenesis of the two tribal groupings. He states that before the formation of both entities  power in the steppe was concentrated in the hands of a single ruler ( presumably he is referring here to Ernak, son of Attila ), who then divided the power/empire between his two sons called Utigur and Kutrigur "Justinian and Theodora, Robert Browning, page 160 : "The Huns of Attila, and their descendants the Bulgars, the Kutrigurs and the Utigurs, were pastoral peoples of the steppe and semi-desert lands of central Asia, who had been driven westwards in search of new pastures by a combination of factors. The progressive desiccation of their ancient home, and in particular of the Tarim Basin, reduced the grazing land available. ", https://books.google.bg/books?id=gOIMSWMtow0C&pg=PA158&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAzgKahUKEwiRrunKvo7HAhWrF9sKHSH-A6o#v=onepage&q=utigurs&f=false Menander Protector mentioned an Utigur leader in the latter 6th century called Sandilch.Menandri Fragmenta. Excerpta de legationibus. - Ed. C. de Boor. Berolini, 1903, p. 170 Later these  Bulgars of the Eurasian steppes had come under the control of the Western Turkic Kaghanate and were also known as Unogundur.Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland,
1971, Volume 3, page 459 : "... Utigur and Unnugari are used as common synonyms for the same tribe. Again, the Unnugari are also called Unugunduri and Unungunduri.", https://books.google.bg/books?id=m_6zAAAAIAAJ&q=utigurs&dq=utigurs&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y In the early 7th century, Khan Kubrat of the Dulo clan was "ruler of the Unogundurs" and the founder of Old Great Bulgaria.Nisephorus Patriarcha. Breviarium. Ed. C. de Boor, p. 24The Early Medieval Balkans, John Van Antwerp Fine, The University of Michigan Press (2000), page 66:  " Meanwhile in the Steppes and the region around the sea of Azov dwelled the Onogur Bulgars. They were seminomadic,ethnically mixed people under a Bulgar chief. According to their traditions their ruling family, known as the house of Dulo, was descended from Attila the Hun. Though the scholars have advanced many theories, the origin and meaning of the name Dulo remain obscure. In 635 the Onogur chief Kovrat led a revolt against the Avars which succeeded in driving them from his land and putting an end to Avar suzerainty over the Onogurs", https://books.google.hr/books?id=Y0NBxG9Id58C&pg=PA66&dq=onogur&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwATgoahUKEwistou42ZPJAhWGWiwKHUbUDxI#v=onepage&q=onogur&f=falseBulgarian Centuries, Volume 1, https://books.google.com/books?id=NeIVAQAAMAAJ&q=kubrat+dulo&dq=kubrat+dulo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGnJab6fnKAhUH6Q4KHfNIBeg4FBDoAQgcMAA
The Bulgar ancestors of the Utigurs represented the Pontic-Kuban part of the Hun Empire, and were ruled by descendants of Attila through his son Ernakh, named Irnik in the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans.Otto Maenchen-Helfen, The World of the Huns, стр. 415 : "Ernak has often been identified with Ирникь in the Bulgarian Princes' List." https://books.google.bg/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PA415&dq=Ernak&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Ernak&f=false Runciman (Book I THE CHILDREN OF THE HUNS) 1930, p. 4: "Attila was proudly called cousin, if not grandfather, by them all. Of all these claims, it seems that the Bulgars’ is the best justified; the blood of the Scourge of God flows now in the valleys of the Balkans, diluted by time and the pastoral Slavs." http://www.promacedonia.org/en/sr/"The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", 2013, Hyun Jin Kim, page 140 :" The same is likely to have been the case among the Utigurs and Kutrigurs who under Attilid rule had even more justification for claiming the imperial mantle of the Huns of Europe.", https://books.google.hr/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&q=utigurs#v=snippet&q=utigurs&f=false  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.182.144.199 (talk) 18:04, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Utigur Huns