Talk:Liberal Christianity/Archive 1

message: Liberal christianity → Liberal Christianity
*  the reasons for move copied from WP:RM,  {No set page dealing with Liberal Christianity existed, so I edited the redirect page titled Liberal christianity(lower case c) to start an the article. This lower case c redirect page was previously redirecting to Christian Left, which was not an accurate description of Liberal Christianity. There is another redirect called Liberal Christianity(note capital C) which was redirecting to Liberal theology and has a number of pages using it as a redirect. All the references on those pages however are relevant to the new article I have written. I can include a reference to Liberal theology in the new article I have written to draw peoples attention to Liberal theology article. This would streamline the liberal christianity section with regards to the category of liberal christianity and it's logical sub-category liberal theology by placing in some type of logical order, rather than two seperate redirects taken it in totally different directions, depending on what angle you come at the subject from. ie Liberal christianity with a lower case c or Liberal Christianity with a capital C}. All articles could redirect to one redirect page, Liberal Christianity, and from there to Liberal theology.
 
::Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~
*Support for above reasons. --Randolph 22:37, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Add any additional comments
This page was originally a redirect page to Christian Left. The only page linking to it is a user page.  I have started the article for Liberal Christianity here and only later discovered the other redirect for Liberal Christianity (with the capital C). --Randolph 22:41, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Having slept on this issue over night, I'm reminded of the wikipedia name convention and the use of a capital 'C' in the title Liberal Christianity.  It seems to me that it might be more appropriate to simply change the redirect for Liberal Christianity (capital C) to point to this article instead, as I am of the opinion now that this is the more appropriate location for the article of Liberal christianity. --Randolph 06:22, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any action being taken to move the page, I have proceeded with the above idea of simply changing the redirect from Liberal Christianity. If there is going to be a problem with this, or it is somewhat outside of the proceedural norms, please accept my apologies in advance, and feel free to change the redirect back to Liberal theology --Randolph 06:42, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Ok.I'll redo what I have changed and set it up for moving. --Randolph 08:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've replaced the move request and put the redirect at Liberal Christianity back to pointing at Liberal theology --Randolph 08:15, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Many thanks for the time and effort of those involved in the move request. --Randolph 17:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: ::Add any additional comments
This page was originally a redirect page to Christian Left. The only page linking to it is a user page.  I have started the article for Liberal Christianity here and only later discovered the other redirect for Liberal Christianity (with the capital C). --Randolph 22:41, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Having slept on this issue over night, I'm reminded of the wikipedia name convention and the use of a capital 'C' in the title Liberal Christianity.  It seems to me that it might be more appropriate to simply change the redirect for Liberal Christianity (capital C) to point to this article instead, as I am of the opinion now that this is the more appropriate location for the article of Liberal christianity. --Randolph 06:22, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any action being taken to move the page, I have proceeded with the above idea of simply changing the redirect from Liberal Christianity. If there is going to be a problem with this, or it is somewhat outside of the proceedural norms, please accept my apologies in advance, and feel free to change the redirect back to Liberal theology --Randolph 06:42, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: "Christianity" is a proper noun; like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. it is always capitalized.--Pharos 07:12, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok.I'll redo what I have changed and set it up for moving. --Randolph 08:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've replaced the move request and put the redirect at Liberal Christianity back to pointing at Liberal theology --Randolph 08:15, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actually, this should be moved 

message: User:Flex suggested that Liberal christianity and Liberal Theology be merged, so I have done so.  As soon as a decision has been reached about moving Liberal christianity to Liberal Christianity, then I can begin to go through the previous links to Liberal Theology and edit them to point to the correct page without going through the redirects. --Randolph 23:40, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging of Liberal christianity and Liberal Theology

message: This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 15:42, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks for the time and effort of those involved in the move request. --Randolph 17:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Decision

message: I added some info in ellipses under the above title just to remind the reader that Christian Liberalism involves individualistic interpretations. On my first reading I got the impression that all Liberals believe the same things, and this just isn't true. Feel free to revert and discuss. -- Ted Cain
Is "*an intimate, personal view of God" really a distinctive feature of liberal christianity as opposed to other forms? First, many forms of conservative Christianity also emphasizes an intimate, personal view of God (e.g., evangelicals, pietists, pentecostals, and traditional monks). Second, some forms of liberal christianity would not have such a personal view of God, but tend towards a pantheistic view. I recommend this line be removed as not providing a good distinctive to the definition of liberal Christianity. DrJ1m
Recently an anonymous editor has added some viewpoints that are critical of Liberal Christianity, which is good for balancing out the article.  A question I have about the recent changes is should the external links be divided into 'pro' and 'con' and labelled as such or simply left as they are? --Randolph 00:26, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Pro & Con is the way to go...fair, NPOV, and all that.  KHM03 11:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Contribution to Biblical Hermeneutics" title

message: I've been contemplating whether it would be worth adding a list of online forums that identify themselves as liberal christian communities.  Any thoughts? --Randolph 00:32, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would probably be best it we could remove the list of beliefs since they are misleading and reinforce a misunderstanding of liberal theology.--Riferimento 12:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Forum subsection?

message: Does Liberal Christianity allow persons to believe in Reincarnation? Not necessarily as part of the LC dogma. For example, the Jewish religion allow people to believe in Reincarnation but they don't advocate it either and there is no stress on it since there is less focus on the afterlife.--Jondel 00:54, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are likely some liberal Christians who allow for reincarnation, but resurrection is so central to Christianity that I think most would be reluctant to affirm reincarnation too vigorously.  KHM03 00:59, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree with KHM03 on this point.  I have had discussions with liberal Christians on internet forums on the subject of reincarnation and the description of 'reluctant to affirm' would be a good summary of the reactions to the idea. --Randolph 01:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reincarnation

message: I'm a little perplexed at the addition of 'somewhat ambiguous' to the introduction by the above editor.  I'm not really sure what the editor is trying to say and I'm of the opinion that its not a necessary addition to that subsection.  Furthermore, the list of 'Con' weblinks is now getting a little out of hand.  I think it could do with some pruning, especially where links lead to the same website but different articles.  --Randolph 18:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent anonymous edits by 67.140.174.200

message: I'd like to see this article express liberal views of the Bible in positive terms.  Liberal Christians do not construct their beliefs in conscious opposition to conservatives and fundamentalists, so why present this as the foil to other beliefs?  With respect to Biblical laws, for example, a liberal may argue that no one is a true literalist.  The Bible contains long lists of capital crimes no longer punished as such and long lists of laws proscribing animal sacrifice.  Liberal Christians attempt to apply a consistent standard, i.e. to measure evil by the harm that it does.  Hence liberal churches may welcome gay members (who harm no one) and reserve their anger for crimes with real victims such as murder, rape, and child abuse. Durova 17:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A balance between positive construction and neutral point of view is a hard one to achieve.  Your welcome to contribute and add your own ideas to the mix. --Randolph 03:19, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Positive Construction?

message: Process theology is noteworthy among Christian theologies, in that it allows for reincarnation as a possibility beneath the umbrella of Christianity.MerricMaker 15:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Reincarnation

message: I've noticed that Liberal theology redirects here.  Do no other religious systems have liberal movements? Durova 03:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps a disambiguation page is in order?  KHM03 06:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Or even a new article. There are certainly WP articles on Liberal Judaism and Liberal movements within Islam. --Angr (t·c) 13:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would think disambiguation would be the best way to go about rectifying the problem.  Liberal theology was a separate article at one stage, but after the creation of the Liberal Christianity article it was deemed appropriate to merge the two articles, as the orginal Liberal theology article was a subset of Liberal Christianity.  With that in mind I would prefer to see a move towards disambiguation. --Randolph 01:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm renaming the disambig page Liberal theology to be in keeping with Wikipedia's naming conventions. Angr (talk • contribs) 05:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased redirect? 

message: Although I do recognize that there is a great deal of effort that has been put into it, I must say that the article does seem to have been written with a latent attitude of reprobation towards "Liberal Christians". This may just be because I may identify as a Christian with Liberal views (although "Liberal Christian" as described here does notreally fit me), so I want to hear what others have to say, to get some perspective. 
Themalau 06:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you point to specific instances which you feel are inappropriate? It's certainly changed a lot since I first contributed to it. :) --Randolph 03:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Having followed this article for some time now, I can say that it is more the latter situation, although I think 'sabotage' would be a word I would not choose to use.  I think from a liberal point of view, liberalism is more open to accepting criticism by its very nature, than conservatism is.  This is why, at least from my personal point of view, I have never really be overly concerned with having a Criticism section.  I think it's only fair that all sides of the story be told, warts and all.  I think my major concern would be that the criticism section does not grow out of proportion to the rest of the article.  If it did so, I would be suggesting that it be moved to an article of it's own. Perhaps the editors of the Liberal Christianity article could be said to be setting a good example for their counterparts and they should perhaps follow suit and allow some content in their article which allows similar criticisms to be noted in those articles.  To tell you the truth though, I have hardly read any of the articles on Conservative Christianity with any intent to compare the content, so I really don't know how they go about organising their articles. :)  --Randolph 12:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Objectivity

message: I've added a See also link to Essays and Reviews which is of historical interest, but thought the seven theologian authors too minor to add to the list of "Liberal Christian Theologians and Authors". ..dave souza 10:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call, although any Archbishop of Canterbury is, in my view, pretty prominent.  KHM03 11:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add them from the list in the Essays article. It came to my attention as a aside to Darwin's publication of The Origin of Species, and while they were important at the time the controversy seems long forgotten.....dave souza 19:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Essays and Reviews

message: Most of the criticisms in this section are fair points, such as the movement's foundation in Enlightenment thinking.  I don't understand, however, how Liberal Christianity--which the article describes as having "an emphasis on inclusive fellowship and community" and "a willingness to consider and adopt viewpoints which have their roots outside of Christianity (e.g., other faith/philosophical traditions)"-- could have facilitated the rise of Nazism.
:Personally I'd only even consider adding this if we were quoting this Karl Barth chap directly, rather than just reporting his view; and of course, backing it up with a watertight source. M A Mason 17:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading through Karl Barth I think it is a good idea to mention him here, but it's also a pretty bad misrepresentation of his views to say he blamed Nazism on liberal Christianity and leave it at that. --Angr (tɔk) 18:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I notice that the section in question was removed, and then replaced by another editor with the claim of being 'suppressed' in the edit summary. I feel a controversy approaching on this issue. :) IJust for the record the section was removed by User:Wayward and replaced by User:Wetman.  I think it would be appropriate if we consider the revert to be a seperate issue to this discussion on the appropriateness of that section as it is written. --Randolph 01:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms of Liberal Christianity--Nazism? 

message: With reference to this: "a willingness to combine theology with modern scientific theories"
I'm not sure whether that should be listed as "Liberal". Personally, I get annoyed when people go on about "Science vs. Religion".
Yes, I think that some of what science tells us might not be absoutely true, but in general i think that science helps us to understand our awesome God to a greater degree. It doesn't disprove God, cos this isn't possible!
I think a greater and deeper understanding of God cannot be labelled "Liberal". interested to hear other people's views.
Paulfp 20:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you that a greater and deeper understanding of God isn't an exclusively liberal concept, but this isn't what science is, depending on your interpretation of science. Science doesn't disprove God, but it does arguably disprove much of the Bible, I'm thinking Genesis in particular. Modern science talks about the Big Bang and evolution for example, and it's liberal Christians that would argue that God is the driving force behined such things - I for one certainly would. But more conservative Christians would argue that the Bible is completely fact thoughout, Biblical inerrency and literalism, and as such they wouldn't combine modern science with theology, rather they would deny modern science. I think this is what the statement is getting at. M A Mason 20:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Paulfp has a point. Not all conservatives are into intelligent design or young earth creationism. The Catholic Church is open to theistic evolution, for instance, but I don't think we'd call the current or previous Pope liberal. Evangelicals such as Ra McLaughlin and Hugh Ross also argue that the Bible is inerrant, but they treat the Genesis creation narratives as a piece of poetic literature rather than a precise description or advance other theories to integrate it with scientific findings. --Flex 21:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Beware of reading historical terms as modern political labels: "liberal" didn't always mean lefty Democrat, and remember that Thatcher was a radical Conservative enthusiast for Liberal Economics (also known as Reaganomics) of the kind favoured by the 19th century Whigs and their successors, the Liberals. ....dave souza, talk 00:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course. This article is talking about the movement called "liberalism" within theology, not politics. --Flex 13:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks guys for your comments :-) I for one believe in the BigBang, and although I think the evolution theory as it stands has quite a LOT of room for improvement, I don't discount the idea completely. I believe that God was definitely the driving force behind each of these two things, in whatever form they did actually take (which is unlikely to be exactly what we understand them as today). With the Big Bang, I have no quibbles with believing that alongside the (fact) that God created everything. In Genesis God says "Let there be light"... and - BANG! - there was light. Agreed, there are some Christians that don't agree that the "let there be light", and the sudden appearance of light can be at all linked to the bigbang. Personally, I don't see any logic in that at all.... bigbang+let-there-be-light = perfect sense to me! Maybe I should look up "Liberal" in my dictionary and make sure I fully comprehend its meaning, because currently, despite my readines to accept that God created the BigBang and that God may well have (but I'm not arrogant enough to say either way) used evolution to create us all, I still don't count myself as liberal one bit! I strive to be neither liberal or conservative; I try to live my life in the way Jesus instructed, with him at the centre. Therefore rather than taking viewpoints on various things, I just like to be guided by him. Right, I've rambled enough now so I'll shut up! :-) Paulfp 20:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Or 'confuse' rather than 'combine'. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 19:06, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Science and Christianity? 

message: There is a factual error in the article on Liberal Christianity. If one scrolls down to "Catholic" theologians, the name of Hans Kung is listed. In 1979 ecclesiastical authority at the highest level removed his right to use the word "Catholic" when he called himself a theologian. He remains a theologian and a professional academic all these years, and he has continued teaching in Germany. He also remains a priest in good standing in the Church, and his faculties to practice the ministry were never lifted. Absolutely never has he been "excommunicated" as the article falsely states. He had a private meeting in the summer of 2005 with Pope Benedict XVI. It was reported that they discussed theology, but his status as a "Catholic" theologian remains unchanged. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David.Monniaux (talk • contribs) 07:42, 16 February 2006  (UTC)
: You are correct.  Someone with an axe to grind inserted the wrong and misleading information, which has been removed.  Thank you for bringing this to our attention.  However, since Kung still embraces the Catholic faith, and he is still a theologian (emeritus) of the University of Tubingen, even though he no longer teaches for the church, I think most people would still call him a Catholic theologian in the general sense, so his categorization remains appropriate with the exception noted.  By the way, what does OTRS stand for? --Blainster 00:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  complaint from OTRS 

message: The use of the term homosexual is a proper scientific description of sexual orientation, and is to be preferred where the emphasis is descriptive of the trait rather than the social milleu in which it may occur.  It is not the preferred term of address in interpersonal communication, which may be what is bothering another editor. I can agree that a person should not be described as a "homosexual", as if that were the primary identification of the individual, but instead as a "homosexual person", where the trait is merely used as an adjective.  Unfortunately the term "gay" is ambiguous in current usage, quite apart from its former meaning of cheerful.  That word is used variously to refer to either male homosexual men, or all homosexual persons, with no general consensus (check a recent dictionary).  These should be sufficient reasons to prefer the adjective "homosexual", especially in an article where it is not a central theme. --Blainster 23:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with you on this, but do not wish to enter into an edit war.  I find it intriguing, to say the least, that you do not claim this opinion as your own, but state it as a presumably objective fact:  not "I believe the use of... and I think it is to be preferred where...", but "The use of the term homosexual is a proper... and is to be preferred where..."  I can agree with you that homosexual is a proper scientific description of sexual orientation; however, the context of this article is not a scientific discussion of sexual orientation and behavior.  I think people would think it strange to insist that this article discuss the "ordination of females" rather than the "ordination of women", and I think the same logic applies here.  None of the caucuses and advocacy groups for LGBT inclusion in "liberal Christianity" (the UCC Coalition for LGBT Concerns, More Light Presbyterians, Lutherans Concerned/North America, the United Methodist Reconciling Ministries Network, etc.) use the term homsexual.  I agree that "gay" alone is ambiguous; you will notice that I actually used the term "gay and lesbian".  I will concede that this too is imperfect, as it leaves out bisexual persons (as does homosexual, though), and also has some resitance among some people of color due to racial and class identity differences (some of whom prefer "same gender loving").  So I will not claim that "gay and lesbian persons" is perfect, perhaps "LGBT persons" is better, but I am still convinced that either "is to be preferred" to "homosexual persons" in this context.Emerymat 01:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Homosexual description

message: I'm inclined to think that individualism is not as part-and-parcel of liberal Christianity as the article states/implies.  Many of us who consider ourselves mainline/liberal believe strongly that theology and faith must come out of the gathered community and not simply one's individual whims.  Also, many of us, while being theologically and biblically open in the ways described, believe that the witness of the Church tradition and the history of Christian thought is critically important. Emerymat 19:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I thought the statement as it read before you changed -- and maybe even still after you changed it -- sounded more like a conservative Christian stereotype of liberal Christianity than like the truth. User:Angr 07:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Individualism 

message: Historically, the heirarchy of the Catholic Church took a punitive stance toward modernism. Pope Pius X in his encyclicals Lamentabilii and Pascendi, as well as the Oath against Modernism which he mandated all catholic teachers, professors and clergy to take, condemned modernism in the most severe terms. 
Catholic modernism was an attempt to update the catholic method of thinking to the 19th and 20th century academic trends of philosophy (primarily Kantian) and science (such as the theory of evolution). Certain catholic thinkers  were tired of being labelled as medieval or ancient in their scholastic methods or abstracting from real life a pure intellectualism which was based mainly on the metaphysical method of St. Thomas Aquinas.
The modernists claimed their fusion of catholic doctrines with modern philosophy followed in the footsteps of Aquinas when he introduced Aristotlian metaphysics into theology. However, there is a distinction between the Kantian and Thomist philosophies. Truth is seen as founded on objective realities testified by the five senses (Thomism) or based on subjective judgement by the human intellect of our sense data (Kantism). 
St. Thomas employed Aristotelian metaphysics to justify revealed dogma. When a difficulty arose he sought the scriptural truths, not trying to alter them to fit into his philosophy system. Modernism on the other hand, accepted developing understandings of religious truth along with scientific truth and rejected rigorous propositional faith, with some in favor of Maurice Blondel's philosophy of action, and sometimes sought the reduction of the supernatural order to the natural. The late Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P. objected that to baptize something to become Catholic, first it has to be baptizable, and modern philosophy is simply unbaptizable. 
After the Second Vatican Council, modernism was accepted by the Church hierarchy, including by Pope Benedict XVI. After Vatican II (1962-1965) moderate modernism gained the favour of many in the ecclesial hierarchy and some of its characteristics were introduced into seminary courses starting from the 1950s, when the "New Theology" rose up. To this New Theology most in the ecclesial hierarchy adhered since about 1965, including then Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (currently, Pope Benedict XVI) and theologians like present day Cardinals Walter Kasper and Karl Lehmann. 
This section was moved here from the article, where it had been misplaced in the subsection of Catholic liberal theologians.  It was strongly POV, and I attempted to edit it to be more NPOV, then realized it was focused more on modernism than liberalism, so moved it here.  What should be done with it? Keep and move to new section? Move to article on modernism (Roman Catholicism)? Edit POV back in and move to Criticism section? --Blainster 21:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic section

message: I see that Martin Luther King is listed here as a liberal theologian/atuhor. I'm not sure this is true. I recognise him as an evangelical Christian with liberal/leftist political views. But his theology from what I understand is what as an evangelical I recognise as evangelical.
Perhaps it would be good for someone to open up the debate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.130.92.99 (talk • contribs) 17:48, August 24, 2006  (UTC)
=== evangelical can be liberal ===
You seem to assume that "liberal" and "evangelical" must be different. I consider myself an evangelical AND a liberal.  Hopefully a little like Martin Luther King... a hero of mine!  
While we liberal evangelicals are clearly not as common as conservative ones, we arent exactly rare, either.   There are a few million of us, I'd guess. But we're not well understood.
We show up in voting patterns. In the last election, about 20% of evangelicals voted liberal. Quite of few of those would be African Americans. Check out this good study from Pew:
Religion and the Presidential Vote 
--Calan 10:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MLK is also on the Social Gospel page, which that article describes as a religiously liberal movement.  Are you sure he preached Evangelicalism? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 20:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have removed Rowan Williams as he has aligned himself with Anglo-Catholicism, not with Liberal Christianity, though he is less conservative than some Anglo-Catholics.  By the way, there are also pages for Liberation theology and Christian socialism, which may be liberal politically, but have very little connection with the liberal theology.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 20:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be a fundamental confusion. The article is about religious liberalism and explicitly sets this out in the introduction, as distinct from political liberalism. In a religious sense, 'evangelical' and 'liberal' are distinguishing terms which are defined against each other. Some people prefer to call this 'confessional' and 'liberal'. In a political sense, 'liberal' has no connection with religious liberalism at all. Liberals can be evangelical, religious liberal, atheistic, Jewish, Muslim… any religion or none. The issue is however further clouded by the misappropriation of the old term 'fundamentalist', which once referred to a particular movement within Christian evangelicalism, as an umbrella term for religious-based extremism, generally in an anti-liberal sense. Martin Turner 13:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll give Calan some right: I've heard the word 'evangelical' used as non-dogmatic protestant, which is not the most common word usage, but nevertheless a usage. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 19:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martin Luther King liberal? 

message: You seem to assume that "liberal" and "evangelical" must be different. I consider myself an evangelical AND a liberal.  Hopefully a little like Martin Luther King... a hero of mine!  
While we liberal evangelicals are clearly not as common as conservative ones, we arent exactly rare, either.   There are a few million of us, I'd guess. But we're not well understood.
We show up in voting patterns. In the last election, about 20% of evangelicals voted liberal. Quite of few of those would be African Americans. Check out this good study from Pew:
Religion and the Presidential Vote 
--Calan 10:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MLK is also on the Social Gospel page, which that article describes as a religiously liberal movement.  Are you sure he preached Evangelicalism? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 20:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have removed Rowan Williams as he has aligned himself with Anglo-Catholicism, not with Liberal Christianity, though he is less conservative than some Anglo-Catholics.  By the way, there are also pages for Liberation theology and Christian socialism, which may be liberal politically, but have very little connection with the liberal theology.  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 20:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be a fundamental confusion. The article is about religious liberalism and explicitly sets this out in the introduction, as distinct from political liberalism. In a religious sense, 'evangelical' and 'liberal' are distinguishing terms which are defined against each other. Some people prefer to call this 'confessional' and 'liberal'. In a political sense, 'liberal' has no connection with religious liberalism at all. Liberals can be evangelical, religious liberal, atheistic, Jewish, Muslim… any religion or none. The issue is however further clouded by the misappropriation of the old term 'fundamentalist', which once referred to a particular movement within Christian evangelicalism, as an umbrella term for religious-based extremism, generally in an anti-liberal sense. Martin Turner 13:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll give Calan some right: I've heard the word 'evangelical' used as non-dogmatic protestant, which is not the most common word usage, but nevertheless a usage. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 19:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  evangelical can be liberal 

message: The article says "Many nontraditional views on heaven and hell are prevalent among liberal Christians. These range from ideas about separation from God or temporal punishment to the belief that there is no hell. Views on heaven are similarly diverse."  Could somone tell me what the "orthodox" or "traditional" reading of hell is that all non-liberal Christians would agree to? I guess my question is whether it involves a literal pitchfork and 3000 degree (fahrenheit) heat versus a land of clouds with brass-halo'ed white people in gowns.  Info please. It matters because I want this article to be reflective of a NPOV conception of what liberal Christians think versus an indictment of them by self-avowed conservative Christians. MPS 20:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I'm aware, the orthodox position of heaven and hell is that they exist.  There are degrees in terms of literalism with regards to things like 3000 degree heat or whatever, but pretty much universally, the places exist, and you go to one or the other when you die.  Heaven being a good place (opinions differ as to how good, or the definition of good) and hell being a bad place (pretty much universally accepted as "very painful"... "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is the relevant phrase from the bible). 204.78.9.231 19:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for your reply but I think what you said only makes me more confused. When so-called "liberal Christians" speak in terms of separation from God or temporal punishment... aren't they also taking the orthodox view that hell involves pain and gnashing of teeth? I guess what I am saying is that there is no part of the Bible that says "There are torture rooms in hell and a guy with a pitchfork, pencil-thin moustache, and manaiacal laugh gives people tours by opening doors to reveal each person in his own personal torture room." What little the Bible does say about hell is often in terms of sheol which is not generally understood as a particular place for sinners... and Gehenna is often translated as hell because it refers to a smelly garbage heap outside Jerusalem ...  but as you read in the Bible Gehenna is a place of abomination and perhaps torment that is not described as particularly hot. ... I am not trying to proof text anything here, but I am trying to point out that the "liberal" view of hell as  "a painful soul-state of regret and eternal separation from God" is not (on the face of it) an implausible interpretation... any more than is the view of hell as  a "volcano-like subterranean Abu Ghraib 16 miles inside the Earth's core." Dante was a Renaiissance poet and writer, not an authoritative interpreter of scripture. MPS 05:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, what does traditional/orthodox Christianity say about Heaven that liberal Christians tend to contradict? MPS 05:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: heaven and hell

message: The section "the tenets of liberal theology" is extremely inaccurate. I hope someone with more historical knowledge than me will correct it. And the comment on Schleiermacher, is that supportable?
CSMR 03:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if you could elaborate on which parts of it are inaccurate and why. --Randolph 21:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

text: They also look inaccurate to me.  I think the bullet points in the lead section would serve much better cut and pasted into the place of the tenets, but I don't have any books to hand to support me.  Anyone care to have a go?  --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: tenets of liberalism

message: Well done, MPS, for cleaning up some questionable unsourced statementsdiff.
I don't think you went far enough with the History section, which seems to be a history of Christian social progressivism; which has only a tangential relationship with Liberal Christianity.  Many progressives were (and are) not associated with liberal theology, such as William Wilberforce (evangelical) and Kenneth Leech (sacramentalist / Anglo-Catholic).  Further, this is meant to be an encyclopedia for general readers, so lumping all unorthodoxy (such as Alcoholics Anonymous, which I guess was the inference of temperance) into Liberal Christianity is just confusing.  Some conservative preachers choose to label all unorthodoxy as liberal.  But, Liberal Christianity is a distinct religious movement, arising from academic theology, and the first job of the article should be to help the reader understand the basics of the movement, rather than give them a grab bag of all the things that writers have ever associated with the label.
Anyone agree with me that the History section should be deleted? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 08:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, or at least, it should describe how liberal Christianity arose out of the social and intellectual changes in post-Enlightenment West. (I mean, are soup kitchens really a notable aspect of the history of liberal Christianity?!) Myopic Bookworm 00:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent deletions; History section

message: Someone recently said the use of the term "inclusive" expressed a prejudicial point of view and placed quotations marks around it in the article. Something which itself expresses a prejudicial point of view. I hate to state the obvious, but to say liberal theology is inclusive means that it includes. The use of the word that was changed in the article was in particular reference to God-concepts. Liberal theology allows for virtually any view out there, Deist, Wholly Imminent, Wholly Transcendent, all of them. A conservative might say, "but you don't allow for my view of God as Holy Father." This is not the case, the whole point of being inclusive is to include all views including those which are counter to the majority. To exclude based on the content of unusual views is explicitly un-liberal. This is the case even for more conservative or traditional views. I've removed the quotation marks. MerricMaker 21:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Inclusive is code for "gay-friendly." Not being angry/hateful here, just reporting the facts. Verify with google google MPS 04:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What does the The Cambridge Dictionary of Theological Terms say about inclusive? We need to capture the various senses of the word or it will mean whatever it means to the reader. Surely we ought to account for its various subtle meanings if we are going to use that word. POV disclosure: In the United Church of Christ, inclusive is often a code word. MPS 07:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusivism

message: Below, in the interest of accuracy, I suggest the following changes:
*internal diversity of opinion doctrine that may or may not include those of Conservative Christianity Traditonal /or/ Nicene Christianity 
::more clear, the question is not of opinion but, to be precise, doctrine; defining liberal Christianity as "different from its opposite" is not informative.
*an embracing of higher criticism of the Bible with a corresponding willingness to question doubt supernatural elements of biblical stories (e.g., the virgin birth)
::more clear, "questioning" does not distinguish the group
*the rejection of biblical literalism and the inerrancy of the Bible
*the freedom to construct different differing views of God that may include unitarian beliefs. 
::unclear and unnecessary
*broader differing views on salvation than those held by conservative Christians that salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone, including universalist beliefs 
::again, do not define something as "different from its opposite", this is more clear
*an emphasis on inclusive fellowship and community, often applied in recent years to racial minorities, the disabled, women, and LGBT people.
::I know of no Christian groups that do not include women or disabled, so this hardly seems distinctive.
*a willingness to consider and adopt viewpoints which have their roots outside of Christianity (e.g., other faith/philosophical traditions)
*a willingness to re-evaluate and modify orthodox theology beliefs in the light of modern scientific theories
::It seems unclear because it doesn't mention just what tenants of orthodox theology are in need of modification, or even what it is considering to be orthodox theology.
I am sure this site is subject to its share of vandalism and the like, please understand these as good faith edits that really should improve the clarity of the lead section. Lostcaesar 13:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically, fine by me, but some conservative Christians don't hold much with the Nicene Creed so I've tried to broaden the wording. I don't think it necessary to spell out "salvation through Jesus Christ alone" as the conventional doctrine (some liberals believe that non-Christians are indeed saved through Christ, though not through their own explicit faith in him).  And the position of women is an important feature in many liberal churches: there are many Christian groups whose "inclusion" of women is pretty uninclusive (never speak in church or go too near the sanctuary, never hold a position of authority, etc.). Myopic Bookworm 00:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MB, thanks for the input.  I did not realize the bit about women was talking about ordination.  I guess that's what I meant about it not being clear; thanks for adding that bad with its proper explination.  Also, thanks for adding the few words after the Creed.  Its better now.  As for the part about salvation, I sort of thought that was a distinguishing feature of Liberal Christianity, but its not a big deal to remove it so long as the section is clear (which was my goal here).  Thx. Lostcaesar 07:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposed edit to opening bullets 

message: I am not sure that characterizing Liberal Christian Theology as the opposite of conservative is actually valid.
It is my understanding and stated in the article that one of the tenets of liberal theology is “[i]t claims that a religion is a community of individuals united by common intuition and experiences, and therefore the value of the Church is in providing a supportive framework in which new conceptions of God can be explored, not in issuing decrees, upholding rigid dogma or in exercising power over the religious community”
Here is my first question is it not possible that a person’s intuitive experience with God would lead them to accept the orthodox teachings and conservative beliefs? Is not liberal theology an inclusive theology that would never completely reject orthodox/conservative beliefs?
I was also under the impression that Progressive Christianity and Liberal Theology are not interchangeable terms. In that there are aspects of Progressive Christianity that do reject orthodox/conservative teachings?--GMS508 02:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your impression is correct. This whole page is just wrong. The "liberal" in liberal Christianity refers to the grand liberal tradition of the Enlightenment. 216.15.43.58 03:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 
I would appreciate examples referenced to particular writers/Theologians. What we have now is individuals listing there own beliefs and trying to give them added authority by claiming they are commonly accepted Liberal Christian beliefs. The citations are weak and not from respected journals or writers (some of citations are from blogs where neither the writer nor the sources are listed.) Since there is already so much confusion among evangelicals and fundamentals as to what liberal Christianity is why don’t we just reinforce the belief that Liberal Christianity is nothing more than bunch of Christians who registered to vote as democrats. If you cannot find a source chances are better than average that you are just promoting your own opinion.--Riferimento 23:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are Liberal Christianity and Progressive Christianity interchangeable? 

message: I do not believe that the terms are interchangeable and unless hear differently I am going to edit the article so that it does not infer that the terms are interchangeable.--GMS508 04:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a separate WP article on Progressive Christianity so it would make sense to clarify the difference between the terms in this article.  --Mikebrand 04:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Please edit this thing. It's just baldly wrong. 216.15.43.58 05:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited the page please review and correct if you feel my changes are inaccurate or need clarification.--GMS508 02:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion the History section is beyond editing and probably needs to be rewritten. Would anyone object to deleting it?--GMS508 03:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection here. Hay4 03:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Liberal Christianity defines an approach to studying primary sources that inform concepts and events described in the Bible. It attempts to apply these analyses back to the Bible. Higher Criticism and the scientific method are especially important inputs.  Biff alcatraz (talk) 22:13, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

text: Progressive Christianity is an attempt to use major Christian concepts(especially as uncovered by Liberal Christian analysis) to define solutions to pressing modern social problems.  Progressive Christianity is still defining itself and will probably change over time because it is primarily a social movement that addresses a changing list of social issues; not a religious ideology. Biff alcatraz (talk) 22:13, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Does anyone disagree that Progressive Christianity & Liberal Christianity are not interchangeable?

message: I think we need to cite sources for the list of liberal Christian thinkers (and for the entry as a whole). For example, I'm pretty sure Niebuhr did not consider himself to write in the tradition of liberal Christianity. Is there a reputable source out there indicating otherwise? Hay4 17:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of liberal christian thinkers

message: Martin Luther King was obviously a Progressive Christianity and politically Liberal, but I do not know of any reason to assume that he was a Liberal Christian? Does anyone know why he should be included in this list? My reason for doubting that Dr. King should be included is the fact that he was an ordained Baptist minister, and most Baptist congregations are theologically conservative. Is it possible that he was included because of the common confusion between the terms Progressive Christianity and Liberal Christianity?--Riferimento 01:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I included MLK Jr. on the list of liberal Christians based on a number of papers he wrote while in seminary.  In one essay in particular () MLK essentially denies the virgin birth, unique divinity and bodily resurrection of Jesus by stating that such doctrines were merely the product of a community attempting to express the ineffable character of Jesus through mythology. Eugeneacurry 18:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it's safer to say that MLK wasn't really inspired by academic theology in general.  It's been shown that his doctoral thesis, which essentially deny these things, was plagiarized, so it's not really his writing.  In cases of plagiarism where the intent is clearly the attainment of a degree (for whatever noble purpose) rather than the explication of one's own views, the views contained are not as easily attributable to the author.  MLK may have also been fearful of discrimination from the academy and felt that he had a better chance of having his dissertation accepted if it was suitably "liberal," as black Baptist preachers aren't really known for being liberal theologically, and the academic / liberal theology establishment was almost exclusively white.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.212.63 (talk) 12:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Was Dr. King a Liberal Christian???

message: Why do so many ill-informed, ideological people insist on "contributing" to this entry? WHat we now have is a terrible entry full of wrong and misleading information. I wish there was a way to enforce standards in the case of entries like this. Hay4 15:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish I could "just fix it" but whenever I start making changes they get reverted. Hay4 08:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This entry is terrible

message: Someone deleted information from the lead, and I restored it. Specifically, it's this information:
Liberal Christians commonly question deeply held and centuries-old Christian doctrines, such as the inerrancy of the Bible and the Trinity.  As a resulte, traditional Christians classify some liberal Christians as not Christian at all.
Liberal Christians became dominant in New England c 1800, espousing a unitarian interpretation of Christianity.
Dr. William Ellery Channing was the most prominent spokesman for this movement.
Harvard Divinity School was unitarian from 1805 until it became nonsectarian in 1861.
Liberal Christianity remained popular early in the 20th century, with Harry Emerson Fosdick its most renowned representative.
The liberal Christian tradition continues today with the work of Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, and John Shelby Spong. 
According to WP:LEAD, the lead should go beyind defining the topic to summarizing the article and giving the reader a reason to care. If this information is inaccurate or incomplete, let's fix it, but let's not just leave it out. Jonathan Tweet 17:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted your lead because it states that liberal theology is propositional which contradicts the rest of the article. i.e.  “espousing a unitarian interpretation of Christianity.” You infer that liberalism is not a hermeneutic method for interpreting scripture, but is in fact is an evolving belief system. Please provide citations. Because if you can substantiate your assertion that liberalism is propositional the rest of the article needs to be deleted.--Riferimento 21:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for using the talk page. If you delete another editor's work, you should at least explain yourself on the talk page. Now that you have explained yourself, I see the problem. You want to use the article's second definition of liberal Christianity and exclude the first. The lead says that "liberal Christianity" is an umbrella term; you want to define it as a hermeneutic method only. Anyone else want to jump in here? Jonathan Tweet 22:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can provide a citation which list the liberal Christian belief system written by a theologian please do. Please do not provide anything written by individuals whom are only self-published on the web.--Riferimento 22:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is anyone else in on this discussion? Or is this something that R and I need to work out between the two of us? Jonathan Tweet 23:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  lead 

message: This is a horrible article full of un-referenced half-truths and misleading statements. Anyone actually interested in liberal Christianity would be better off reading the Wikipedia liberalism article which is not subject to the same proselytizing fools of all walks i.e. proselytizing agnostic fools, proselytizing conservative fools, and proselytizing progressive fools.--Riferimento 23:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, in the sense that it doesn't adequately define the term "liberal christianity," and doesn't reference the terms "higher criticism" and "enlightenment" or explain how these ideas relate to "Liberal Chrisianity." This whole entry needs to be rewritten by a small group of knowledgeable, objective theology students or scholars.  Biff alcatraz (talk) 21:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: This entry is terrible two

message: Recent editors have asserted that they have the right to place tags on articles without commenting or explaining there rationale for those tags. This is absolutely true, though I would argue that they should remember that other editors have the right to remove those tags it they believe them to be invalid.When you add a tag without commenting why you believe with some specificity why the article needs a tag two things generally happen: First, the tag remains on the article because additional editing to correct the matter cannot be resolved if other editors do not understand your problem with the article, or the tag is removed by another editor at some future point without any understanding whether the situation was resolved or if the tag was valid in the first place.I believe that the present tag requesting citations is invalid because no editors have requested citations for any specified assertions. The article is short because it is not really a very complicated subject matter. Most additional information that could be added to this article would either be general information better placed in the liberal article (a well sourced article) or specifying individual liberal theologian beliefs (which in my opinion in fact corrupt the article by leading readers to believe that there is a set of liberal beliefs).That said I am a firm believer that when citations are requested if they a not be provided the assertion needs to be removed. One of the reasons that this article is so short is that I have been regularly been removing assertions without citations. --N0nr3s (talk) 15:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation Request Needs Specificity

message: Why is there a nice big criticism section for "Conservative Christianity" and none for Liberal Christianity?  Wikipedia bias strikes again.  152.23.202.133 (talk) 06:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs a Criticism Section 

message: Is Dr. James Dobson a liberal Christian?  I see nothing in this article to suggest that he would not be.  He would be willing to do all that is here ascribed to liberal Christians, though "A liberal Christian, however, may hold certain beliefs in common with traditional, orthodox, or even conservative Christianity."  His hermeneutic would not be one of finding truth propositions in the Bible, though he certainly would claim in certain truth propositions at which he arrived by both reason and faith, in the world at large from evaluating facts, with the words of scripture being one of these facts; and then arrive at, e.g., the notion that scripture is somehow inspired, and though it reflects what these men thought, it also somehow reflects God's will, as their writing is a product of their own thoughts and this inspiration.
Non-liberal Christianity does not claim to be "a belief structure" either, though belief is part of it, and holding certain beliefs in non-liberal Christianity is also, like liberal Christianity, permitted.
I know of no conservative churches which would refer to the Bible as a "collection of factual statements."  Rather, they engage in hermeneutics.
I don't think that non-liberal Christian movements would describe themselves as "dependent upon" the creeds, though the creeds remain essential in the practice of the Church; the creeds have come from the work of God in the Church, and are thus also "dependent" upon the church, so a relation of dependency is here not the best descriptor, and the proposition that non-liberal Christian churches are dependent upon creeds must therefore be deemed as false (mostly because the statement is misleading in the first place).
Does liberal hermeneutics affirm or deny modern philosophical findings in the field of hermeneutics such as Hans Georg Gadamer?  The description of hermeneutics here seems a bit naive, without being able to take account how it is that we believe that some utterances are more reliable than other utterances, and how statements are able to be either true, or false.  We all believe that people wrote these books, and that these books reflect their thoughts which of course, are influenced by their respective cultures.  However, simply stating such does not really amount to much of a hermeneutical method.
Indeed, one could hold to the very conservative Chicago Declaration on biblical inspiration without contradiction here - as long as the inclusive method allows for reading scripture in this way, and then also reading scripture with a view toward coherent belief in general of these certain conservative beliefs which are permitted liberal Christians, as long as they also read scripture without trying to apply the lens of dogma in a naive way - i.e., continue to read it in a manner that coheres with their own beliefs.
I do believe that there should be more reference to classic Liberal theology including Feuerbach, Strauss, the documentary hypothesis, deism, etc.  This is such a "permissive" vision of Liberal Christianity that it includes all - conservative Christians, atheists, Muslims, Hindus, I suppose anyone who is actually capable of reading.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.50.88 (talk) 13:22, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Could you expand the article, please, or even rewrite it? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs to make clearer what Liberal Christianity is 

message: The lists are sourceless; there is no hint as to their completeness, or value.
How about just catting them as "liberal christain theologians" and deleting the lists? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:25, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists 

message: Liberal Christians and other liberal religions read religious books of other faiths
like new age, as these books are considered equal moral texts.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.2.21.154 (talk) 18:53, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multi-faith 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Given that liberal Christianity denominations are now bleeding members, should the article mentions this matter?
2017 Washington Post article: Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving.
Is liberal Christianity dying in Europe too? Knox490 (talk) 12:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Decline of liberal Christianity 

message: The first seven words of this article read "Liberal Christianity, also known as liberal theology". Is this accurate? Do not other religions have their liberal theologies? Vorbee (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Vorbee, I suppose it's because this is an an article titled "Liberal Christianity" and so within Christianity it might also be referred to as "Liberal theology" (this is because it's "liberalism applied to theology" rather than meaning being a liberal and a Christian. Hope this helps, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk  22:06, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Liberal Christianity and liberal theology