Talk:The Imperial Presidency

message: This article needs a rewrite to get back to the NPOV needed, while the subject matter may be in debate or not, the phrasing and structure of the article does not convey a neutral point of view on the matter in question, this becoming more apparent during the sections listing certain years, with the final section reading more like an op-ed than an article found in an encyclopedia.
This article is supposed to be about a book, instead it starts to read like it IS the book, with no listing of criticisms, reception from the public at time of publishing, and having a notes section that is comprised of 72 references to the book that the article is supposed to be about, without reference to other outside sources of information about the book in question.  Granted, the book was published long before the advent of the Internet so finding 3rd-party web sites referencing this work will be difficult, but 72 self-references is a bit much.
68.2.34.10 02:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The author of this book did have a point of view and this is true of most authors.  This is especially true of controversial subjects and books such as this one.  I hope that anyone with some knowledge of the subject would read the book and offer their insights as to the strengths and weaknesses of the book.
The 72 references establish that the article is based on the book and not on the opinions of the article's writer.  If there are passages in the book that should have been included in the summary or were misrepresented in the summary then the references should be helpful in correcting these errors.
Id447 (talk) 18:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Comments of User:68.2.34.10

message: The point of view of the author of the work is all well and good, but this is Wikipedia, where an NPOV is a big part of what makes up each article (at least in initial spirit pre-vandals, etc), and I'm just not seeing how having such a direct translation and outline that comes almost straight from the book (and thusly, the author's POV) is gonna hold with that.  Granted, this is gonna mean some folks are going to need to get themselves a copy (all references to the book require you to have a dead-tree format handy to reference, thankfully a 2004 edition has been published by Houghton-Mifflin, else getting references to check up on would be much more difficult) and actually sit down and read it to be able to cross-reference, which probably would help to establish a more neutral perspective on this particular article.
68.230.117.77 (talk) 07:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to User: Id447

message: This article needs to be rewritten. The grammar is quite poor and it does not flow very well. It further makes absurd claims and implications without references within Wikipedia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.5.248.117 (talk) 18:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Poorly Written

message: From Dutch historian Pieter Geyl
In Geyl's view, there never can be a definitive account for all ages because every age has a different view of the past. For Geyl the best that historians could do was to critically examine their beliefs and urge their readers to do likewise. Geyl felt that history was a progress of "argument without end", but did not feel that this meant that an "anything goes" interpretation of history was acceptable.
Of interest to me is, if some of the historical facts written about in the Imperial Presidency make some people uncomfortable, would they be able to admit to it?  Or would those people see that as a POV?
Is either "The Imperial Presidency" book or the article, factually incorrect?  Are the facts either misrepresented or used to mislead?  Are minor or unimportant historical facts used unfairly or over-emphasized?  Have important facts been excluded?  Is this book or article relevant today?  These are the type of questions I ask when reading a history book.  
From Wikipedia:Controversial articles
Describe the controversy
An article about a controversial person or group should accurately describe their views, no matter how misguided or repugnant. Remember to ask the question, "How can this controversy best be described?" It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy.
Id447 (talk) 00:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: History is "argument without end"

message: Can we merge this with a similar article of Imperial Presidency?--Levineps (talk) 20:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge?

message: Wow. I come here to point out that this article reads like a condensed version of the book, rather than an encyclopedic article, only to find an IP raising the same concerns five years ago. This is a great book, and it deserves better treatment here. Where's the discussion of its impact? The c. 2005 reprint with an additional chapter on the presidencies since the first edition? As such, the article makes constant inappropriate references to the book itself (a primary source), so it's no surprise that the article echoes the book's POV instead of presenting a neutral one. This isn't a political fight. I love this book, and I think its arguments are compelling and deserve a wider audience. But this isn't the way to do it, and Wikipedia isn't the place to do it.
It's probably going to take a complete rewrite or something close to it. I suggest A People's History of the United States as a good example of how this article should look in terms of structure. It's perfectly appropriate to give an overview of the book's main arguments, but not to go into the exhaustive treatment used here. --BDD (talk) 20:38, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: @BDD: I've reworked the lead, and added "background" and "reception" sections. Would you be interested in revising the #Synopsis section? Schazjmd (talk) 00:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate it! I'm not sure how helpful I'll be, though. My copy of the book was a casualty of many pre-move downsizes I've experienced over the past 10 years. Even so, targeted WP:TNT may be the best approach for that section. The images of the presidents are unnecessary, and the article really only needs a few of the major examples Schlesinger cites. The #Synopsis section should probably look more like its current #Problems and solutions subsection. And we need to make clear that a lot of what we say throughout the article is a summary of Schlesinger's views, not things we're saying in Wikipedia voice. -- BDD (talk) 20:44, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't object to the WP:TNT approach, I can pull together a reasonable synopsis based on the aspects of the book that the reviewers found worth noting. Schazjmd (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

text: , I wrote a brief synopsis based on the aspects highlighted by the various book reviews. I think the language now reflects that it's presenting the book's POV, not Wikipedia's. If you think any of the article needs expanding, please go for it. (I also dumped all of the self-refs, book summary doesn't need refs; also dumped the photos.) Schazjmd (talk) 17:20, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Fantastic! I promise I'll take another look, but at a glance, that's exactly what I was thinking. Thanks again. -- BDD (talk) 20:07, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: POV, primary sources, rewrite tags

message: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Id447  (talk • contribs) 18:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The reason that Wikipedia politics is so vicious is that the stakes are so small.

message: Can we get some links to the cases referenced? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: SCOTUS cases 1866, 1867