Talk:Giant Mountains

message: If the result of this poll is "oppose", I suggest that we consider moving the page to "Krkonoše" instantly. Black&White (talk) 16:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we just discuss one target name at a time, please?  Having a discussion on a move to "if A else B" is confusing. Knepflerle (talk) 21:31, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what we are doing right now, I think... Black&White (talk) 23:20, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but people opposing the move to Giant Mountains are not necessarily supporting a move anywhere else, and this banner incorrectly gives the impression that they might be.  Please remove the banner and the confusion - you can express your wish for a move to Krkonoše in your survey statement below. Knepflerle (talk) 08:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly - let's remove this banner, and keep the RM header clean. The RM should not be here in the first place, anyway (unless any new arguments are brought). Moving it down to the discussion subsection. --Lysytalk 09:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  This was meant just for information. So that the people interested in this article expect another voting. It is not "When A, then B, and when not A, then C." Please, just go and look up the word "consider" in a dictionary. I think both of you might use books a bit more, because google's not necessarily the best source of everything... Black&White (talk) 15:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know what it was meant for - but it was ambiguous as to what the result would be if this move were rejected.  Your speculation on my reading and vocabulary are better kept to yourself in future, if you don't mind. Knepflerle (talk) 21:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: moved down from the RM header

message: The whole discussion boils down to the question, what is the widely accepted English name for this mountains range? Well, we have a guideline about it: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) #Widely accepted name. Let's take a look:
# A name can be considered as widely accepted if a neutral and reliable source states: "X is the name most often used for this entity". We don't happen to have a source with such a statement at the moment. What then? Without such an assertion, the following methods... may be helpful in establishing a widely accepted name:
# Consult English-language encyclopedias (we recommend Encyclopedia Britannica, Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta, each as published after 1993). If the articles in these agree on using a single name in discussing the period, it is the widely accepted English name. Britannica has "Giant Mountains". Columbia has "Krkonoše. Encarta doesn't exist anymore. 
# Consult Google Scholar and Google Books hits (count only articles and books, not number of times the word is used in them) when searched over English language articles and books where the corresponding location is mentioned in relation to the period in question. If the name of the location coincides with the name of another entity, care should be taken to exclude inappropriate pages from the count. If the name is used at least three times as often as any other, in referring to the period, it is widely accepted. Google Books: "the Giant Mountains" 867, Karkonosze 798, Krkonoše 803, Riesengebirge 1,437; Google Scholar: "the Giant Mountains" 675, Karkonosze 1,200, Krkonoše 1,420, Riesengebirge 949 (some are actually in German even when restricting search to English). None is three time as popular as any other by this count.
# Consult other standard histories and scientific studies of the area in question. (We recommend the Cambridge Histories; the Library of Congress country studies, and the Oxford dictionaries relevant to the period and country involved). If they agree, the name is widely accepted. The possibility that some standard histories will be dated, or written by a non-native speaker of English, should be allowed for. I tried the Library of Congress country studies, but they don't mention the mountain range in question. Norman Davies, a native English speaker who can hardly be accused of anti-Polonism, uses "Giant Mountains" in his Microcosm. 
# Consult major news sources, either individually, or by using Lexis-Nexis, if accessible. I have no access to Lexis-Nexis, but we can try Google News Archives. "the Giant Mountains" 218 (includes generic use), Karkonosze 38, Krkonoše 258, Riesengebirge 78. No clear winner here either. 
# If a name is used in translating or explaining the official name, especially in texts addressed to an English-speaking audience, it is probably widely accepted. That's a clever idea. Let's check Google hits for the following phrases: "known as the Giant Mountains" 26,900, "known as Giant Mountains" 1,990, "or Giant Mountains" 9,630 (usually following the Polish, Czech or German names). This seems quite convincing. 
A little lower down the page, our mountain range is even used as an example of how careful one must be with using Google for verification: Search engines will find hits when a paper in English is quoting foreign text, which may well include foreign placenames. This often occurs when citing a paper by title. For example, hits which are in fact citations of German papers which use Riesengebirge are not evidence of English usage, either way. I'll add that the same goes for Karkonosze and Krkonoše. — Kpalion(talk) 23:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ad 1) Your example happens to be related. The Shepherd of the Giant Mountains is an English translation of a German ballad about, well, a shepherd who lived in "huge mountains which separate Silesia from Bohemia". — Kpalion(talk) 23:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Ad 2) Or maybe he put it in quotation marks because these mountains are not so giant after all? We may never know. — Kpalion(talk) 23:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Come on, just because a name doesn't exactly represent its meaning literally one doesn't put the name in quotation marks.  Dr. Loosmark  23:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  You seem to have missed the target now. < Black&White >talk 00:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Well yes, it's a name borrowed from German. That's it, and that's how it works. If you're still wondering why, please look above. Where's the problem? You won't change it. Neither of those options is more or less used. And if it is so? Why to stick with a foreign name? "Karkonosze" is in Polish, and the only things relating Poles to these mountains are roughly two hills and two lakes. < Black&White >talk 00:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Widely accepted name 

message: Guys, I've created a special section for you, so that you can freely tell us why you think the name "Karkonosze" SHOULD sustain. Go ahead!
I've found out an interesting thing on the Polish Wikipedia:
: "Karkonosze (pol. n. tradyc. do 1946 Góry Olbrzymie, czes. Krkonoše, czes. gwar. góral. Kerkonoše, niem. Riesengebirge, ang. Giant Mountains)"
: "Karkonosze (traditional Polish name until 1946: Góry Olbrzymie (= the Giant Mountains), Czech: Krkonoše, Czech Local Highlander dialect: Kerkonoše, German: Riesengebirge, English: Giant Mountains)."
That's nice. The name you stick so much to is a 60-year-old Polonized equivalent of the Czech "Krkonoše". As you can see, "Giant Mountains" has been used in every single language with some relation to these mountains, except for Czech. Or, at least it had been, before you came. :-) < Black&White > talk 04:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advantages of keeping "Karkonosze" in and the "Giant Mountains" out 

message: I propose this vote be immediately stopped, and a multi option preferential voting plebiscite be held instead, much as happened with the Irish dispute. —what a crazy random happenstance 02:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite reasonable. But this procedure would require a constructive debate, which unfortunately hasn't come yet. Shouldn't we get things straight and finish this poll first? < Black&White > talk 04:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am afraid the results of this poll will just be (ab)used to kill further discussion. —what a crazy random happenstance 08:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think this will gain quite the same amount of interest as the Irish dispute;) Honestly, if people could stop getting emotional about this (it's not like some nationality wins or loses because we end up using a particular title) and just collect some evidence about how this range is referred to in recent English sources (I don't see how any other arguments are relevant), then we could arrive at a conclusion. If no name is particularly dominant over the others, I suggest leaving the title as it is.--Kotniski (talk) 11:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If not "Giant Mountains", then at least "Krkonoše" is definitely more frequent than "Karkonosze". < Black&White > unload! 13:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

text: FWIW, I completely agree with Kotniski.— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 11:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to gather some evidence (see #Widely accepted name above) and my conclusion is that English sources use at least four names (German, Czech, a Polish variant of the Czech name, and an English calque of the German name), none of which is particularly dominant over the others. Given that, I think it makes sense to use the English name as the article title because it's, well, English. — Kpalion(talk) 11:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well... if the others are equally often used in English sources, in what way are they less "English" than the one you call "the English name"? (One way to approach it is to ask which name would be best recognized by English-speaking readers who know the range. Although we all recognize the words "Giant Mountains", how many people recognize them as referring to this particular range? Compared with the number of English-speakers who recognize Karkonosze/Krkonose - if you know one you'll probably reognize the other - as referring to this range.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good solution in theory, not so good in practice. You'd have to poll a representative sample of native English speakers and then publish the results in a reliable journal. Still, there's a risk that none of those polled has ever heard of this mountain range under whatever name. — Kpalion(talk) 13:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Let's cut to the chase here. Someone go to a library or something, grab an English, general auduence Atlas, turn to a map of Europe/Poland, and then come back here and tell us what they use. It's just the stupid article title, there's no real need for these meta issues here, and so I for one am perfectly willing to accept whatever is in widespread use within English atlases.— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 12:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Kpalion has already presented some encyclopaedic data, that is clearly in favour of the English name. < Black&White > unload! 13:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: To me it doesn't seem clearly in favour of anything. All it shows to me is that any of the three names (I exclude the German one, as it's obviously dated) is a perfectly acceptable title, so we ought to be very happy that whatever choice we make isn't going to be a bad one:) (as long as we don't do something stupid, like the "Sniezka-Snezka" double-barrels we used to have). If no-one comes up with a particularly strong argument for changing, I'd say stick with the status quo, but I wouldn't mind too much if it's changed.--Kotniski (talk) 15:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The German name would be principally politically incorrect. However, there are English encyclopaedias that refer to these mountains as the "Giant Mountains". Why can't we stick to that so as no to make an exception? < Black&White > unload! 17:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

text: The problem with modern English-language atlases is that they tend to use local names even when very well established and widely used English equivalents exist. So if you're going to use an atlas, first make sure it calls Prague "Prague" and not "Praha". — Kpalion(talk) 13:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point... I have to admit that these geography/political related RM's kind of tick me off. Or rather, the people involved in them seem to grate on my nerves. Another similar example is occuring at Talk:Hala'ib triangle#Article_moved_without_discussion right now. It's like people are trying to dragoon the RM process in order to refight (in this case) the Battle of Mohacs, or whatever petty, parochial, nationalistic conflict may be somehow related to the actual article. Anyway, I just read your analysis above and I tend to agree with it, but then I already said that I supported a move earlier, so I doubt that will be convincing to anyone.— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 14:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I'm going off-topic here, but what does the Battle of Mohács have to do with the Giant Mountains? Or with the Hala'ib triangle for that matter? — Kpalion(talk) 15:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I grabbed Battle of Mohács as nothing more then a semi-random illustrative example, and the comment about the discussion at Talk:Hala'ib triangle#Article_moved_without_discussion was made simply to illustrate the similar tone that these RM's tend to take.— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 15:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Polling is not a substitute for discussion. — Kpalion(talk) 09:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, you'd rather rehash a debate that's been going on for years and has never led anywhere, because then everyone will just tire out and the article will remain status quo. I'm afraid there's an inherent limit to discussion, and 5 years is such a great number. Yes, I agree, a poll is not a substitute for discussion, in the same way red meat is not a substitute for tofu. There comes a point where you simply won't get further by just talking. At that point there are two options: edit warring or a poll. Since you're so fond of this debate, I'm just going to accelerate the process by outlining the debate for you: Editor 1: "there are 5 gillion google hits for option A" Editor 2: "Encyclopaedia X uses option B" Editor 1: "Your research is flawed" Editor 2: "Your mother." There. Let's vote now. We may not be a democracy but we're damn close. PS: This is me being friendly, I'm not here frothing in a neurotic fit, so, you know, read every sentence with an imaginary smiley face appended or whatever works for you. —what a crazy random happenstance 10:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I remain unconvinced, but let's wait and see what others say. — Kpalion(talk) 10:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Happenstance, I'm in. < Black&White > unload! 21:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've implemented an adapted version of the poll and contacted all editors with votes in the above section to recast their votes under the new poll - there should be minimal disruption. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop vote 

message: to move the article to Krkonoše (B). —what a crazy random happenstance 06:34, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to Happenstance for managing the poll. I've made a  request at Krkonoše, to enable this article to be moved to that title (if any admins are watching, they could perform the move).--Kotniski (talk) 09:41, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll II 

message: I'm just wondering why some people here still stick to the Polish name. I may be missing the point, especially after what was mentioned before.. Is there kind of nationalist sentiment or what among the Poles? This is an English article on the English Wikipedia, so, why then? < Black&White > 00:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I also noticed that. I was wondering if taking this vote to WP:RFC or a similar venue might help to get a broader consensus. SPLETTE :] How's my driving? 01:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Most editors agree that since the mountains are located in Poland and the Czech Republic, it is natural that the title of the article should be in Polish or Czech. The name in English is too vague and the German name is completely unnecessary.--Replyentry (talk) 06:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Replyentry, have you noticed that the oldest geographical names very often are generic and "vague"? The Giant Mountains is no neologism. Just bother to research... The German name is useful to mention with regards to history and tourism. < Black&White > 18:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Just like Great Wall, very vague, right? And since it's located in China it is natural that the title of the article should be Chángchéng (or  长城)... SPLETTE :] How's my driving? 07:05, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ergo on the English Wikipedia the Buddha should instead be called "the Enlightened One," and Christ—"the Anointed One." Nihil novi (talk) 07:34, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: People have heard of the Great Wall; they haven't generally heard of the Giant Mountains. If we think that the few English-speaking people who have heard of this mountain range are more likely to have heard of it as "K(a)rkonos(z)e" than Giant Mountains, then Giant Mountains is no more "the English name" than the other one.--Kotniski (talk) 07:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Something unrelated: per WP:PLACE the alternative names in the first sentence of the article should be in alphabetical order. Is there a reason why they are not? SPLETTE :] How's my driving? 07:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:PLACE (and, more importantly, common sense) is a bit less simplistic than that. Anyway, let's leave it for another couple of days to see how the poll turns out - whichever name is chosen as the title of the article will be put first in the lead.--Kotniski (talk) 07:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, there is no rush. I was just wondering. SPLETTE :] How's my driving? 07:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Hi, I've found something that might explain why the Polish name is still the one. Here is the first edition of this article from 2002. It was created, propably by some Polish editor, under one of the mountains official names - the Polish Karkonosze. The motives of that editor are propably untraceble by now but it is worth mentioning that this article functioned under the name Karkonosze for nearly 8 years. It was usually unliked by editors who prefered the English translation of the former, German name. Yet, as the official name changed the English translation of the former one schould not be treated as the official English name. If this kind of policy would prevail we would have to still use the translation of Κωνσταντινούπολις (Constantinople) rather than İstanbul becouse the first one was used from the 4th century till the 20th and is therefore much better known :). The Czech name is as good as Polish becouse its official and current. Opole.pl (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, there is no such thing as an official English name of these mountains. Secondly, even if it existed, it wouldn't matter to us, because the Wikipedia policy is to use the name most commonly used in English, which may or may not be an official name. The only problem is that we are unable to determine which name is particularly common in English. And since most of us can't be bothered by analysing as many reliable English-language sources about these mountains as possible, we decided to settle the matter by a poll of our personal preferences, which incidentally often correlate with our nationalities. — Kpalion(talk) 10:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Thanks, Skäpperöd, you've hit the nail on the head! < Black&White > 18:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:   Many English-language sources mention Krkonoše, not misspelled to Krkonose. --ŠJů (talk) 00:55, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

text: This is Replyentry's first edit in Wikipedia. — Kpalion(talk) 09:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to emphasize that my voice should not be crossed. I don't see any principle prohibiting new editors from voting. I signed up recently but have already edited wikipedia as anonymous editor. It seems that it is unjustified discrimination.--Replyentry (talk) 06:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Editors are usually disenfranchised on Wikipedia until they have at least made a few dozen edits, or at bare minimum have been autoconfirmed by the system. Your account was registered 31 January 2009, two days after the commencement of this poll and there is too high a risk that you may be a sockpuppet or otherwise be attempting to manipulate the vote. That is not to say that we think you are a sockpuppet, but as a matter of routine new users aren't usually allowed to vote so soon after joining. It is not the best of ideas to have your account's first edit be a vote, especially on low traffic polls such as this one - it tends to send the wrong impression, even if you mean it well. —what a crazy random happenstance 11:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally understand the concerns some people may have that someone who already voted registered new account just to cast his vote again. I'm new, correct, but I edited Wikipedia before and I signed up in order to cast this vote. I think that my vote should count because there is no such rule that anonymous or new editors have no right to vote at least I'm not aware of one. Please take my voice into consideration. Thanks--Replyentry (talk) 06:48, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This would not be such an issue were this a discussion (like WP:AfD and WP:RfA) rather than a numeric tally (like the Irish poll). As you can see, the Irish vote had visible guidelines on who can and can't vote - perhaps we should have put those up here too, however to many of us they were implied. I'm sorry if you feel like your voice has not been heard, that was not the intention. However, it's a moot issue: the poll has now been closed, and as you can see from the #Results, even if your vote had been counted, it would not have changed the final outcome. —what a crazy random happenstance 07:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Polish? Why? 

message: :This is Replyentry's first edit in Wikipedia. — Kpalion(talk) 09:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to emphasize that my voice should not be crossed. I don't see any principle prohibiting new editors from voting. I signed up recently but have already edited wikipedia as anonymous editor. It seems that it is unjustified discrimination.--Replyentry (talk) 06:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Editors are usually disenfranchised on Wikipedia until they have at least made a few dozen edits, or at bare minimum have been autoconfirmed by the system. Your account was registered 31 January 2009, two days after the commencement of this poll and there is too high a risk that you may be a sockpuppet or otherwise be attempting to manipulate the vote. That is not to say that we think you are a sockpuppet, but as a matter of routine new users aren't usually allowed to vote so soon after joining. It is not the best of ideas to have your account's first edit be a vote, especially on low traffic polls such as this one - it tends to send the wrong impression, even if you mean it well. —what a crazy random happenstance 11:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally understand the concerns some people may have that someone who already voted registered new account just to cast his vote again. I'm new, correct, but I edited Wikipedia before and I signed up in order to cast this vote. I think that my vote should count because there is no such rule that anonymous or new editors have no right to vote at least I'm not aware of one. Please take my voice into consideration. Thanks--Replyentry (talk) 06:48, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This would not be such an issue were this a discussion (like WP:AfD and WP:RfA) rather than a numeric tally (like the Irish poll). As you can see, the Irish vote had visible guidelines on who can and can't vote - perhaps we should have put those up here too, however to many of us they were implied. I'm sorry if you feel like your voice has not been heard, that was not the intention. However, it's a moot issue: the poll has now been closed, and as you can see from the #Results, even if your vote had been counted, it would not have changed the final outcome. —what a crazy random happenstance 07:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Replyentry

message: Apparently, wiki !votes beat UNESCO. Regrettably, UNESCO written answer is nothing more than common sense. Poeticbent talk 07:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: UNESCO cannot decide the problem. UNESCO can not give instructions for the language policy of the Wikimedia Commons project. Both names, Krkonoše in Czech and Karkonosze in Polish, are correct and official. Btw., historically, the mountain range lies on the border of the former German-speaking part of Bohemia and the German-speaking part of the , . --ŠJů (talk) 00:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Krkonoše / Karkonosze 

message: For being reverted don't I deserve an intelligent and grammatically correct edit summary? Gdansk vote is why I'm here, so don't tell me to go see it. There are still some geographical places here that share German Polish history and are not double named. Fix the it! I noticed "Snezka" by accident, You're welcome. Rübezahl (talk) 03:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karpacz 

message: This chapter deals with the 16th and 17th century. Silesia came to Prussia in 1742, so it was not Prussian in the centuries before.
It came to Poland after 1945, so it is now (2018) Polish.
But at the time of the colonisation it was not Polish - what the now Polish suggests, (and not Prussian).
Therefore I delete that sentence.--Wanfried-Dublin (talk) 06:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter Colonization: Polish, Prussian or Austrian ?? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover)  Jerm (talk) 15:34, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Krkonoše →  – Giant Mountains is used by major sources like Google and Britanica. Even Polish Wikipedia says that “Giant Mountains” is the English name. Besides we use “Ore Mountains” for the mountains bordering Saxony and Czechia (Instead of Erzgebirge or Krušné hory) and “Carpathian Mountains” for the mountains bordering Poland and Slovakia (Instead of Karpaty). Ale3353 (talk) 14:42, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 21 August 2021