Wikipedia talk:Keep It Simple/Archive 1

message: Initial impressions: I like the concept very much. However, I've done a little rewording to the project page for clarity, grammar/punctuation, etc., and also replaced "all boxes" with "most major boxes", as there are just so many boxes out there that are irrelevant, if someone is a minimalist, I doubt they'd have use for many of the boxes available. "Major" boxes, however, should be the focus initially, and I'm not sure it would really be possible to do "all" boxes, so best to not claim we're trying. 
I'm not really personally thrilled with the look/feel/layout of the table portion. The boxes aren't aligned to the left side, aren't aligned to the bottom, and they really would perhaps look better inside an invisible table, instead of one with visible borders. Of course, that's another individual thing, so perhaps giving both options would be a good idea. I'll work something up tomorrow with an invisible nested table, and see how that looks. 
I really like this idea, I hope nobody confuses it for WP:KISS,  thank you for inviting me to participate in the initial growth! Ariel♥Gold 23:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  August 27 

message: I've added two additional options for formatting: First is a nested table with a colored background, that also allows for an addition of a second row if needed. The table grows with the addition of labels, so doesn't span the entire width of the page. The second is the "invisible" table, which allows users to not have the table borders visible. 
I've also added a few language labels, and changed the wording to specify that the use of them generally means a native-level, we can add subsections under them for various levels of proficiency as time goes on. I also re-organized the page to have the same sections used in the main userbox page, to keep things easier to organize and find. Ariel♥Gold 10:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice go, glad you came to help ! ℒibrarian2 16:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Options 

message: At the projects I have contact with, I am adding at the userbox section for example:
*If you prefer to Keep It Simple, you can use  which displays: 
So people starts to know about this option ℒibrarian2 16:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In projects pages 

message: Okay, per the guideline: In the template namespace, userbox names must begin with "User " (e.g. Template:User Brazil).
So, someone who is from the United States of America, uses the template: Template:User_US. 
My question is, what should ours be named? Template:User_US_label? English language users are Category:User_en, so would ours be Category:User_en_label? Ariel♥Gold 19:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that we use a standard name of "Template:User label X". For consistency, I'd prefer the same X as in the corresponding userbox "Template:User X". KIS. Jakew 19:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So let me see if I understand you, you're suggesting that the "living in the United States" box, which is :Template:User_US for the userbox, become :Template:User_US_KIS? Ariel♥Gold 19:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, sorry, I didn't mean that. I'm saying that the label corresponding to :Template:User US should be :Template:User label US. Jakew 19:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay yeah that's what I initially thought, but the use of KIS threw me off, lol. Either way I guess, whatever works, but I prefer :Template:User label US as well. Okay I'll move the templates later tonight. Ariel♥Gold 19:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template user space name 

message: ::Ideas for defining category type:
*Wikipedia: = W:
*Wikipedia Projects: = WP:
*Language: = LA:
*Interests and tastes: = Int:
*Life, status, and situation: = Life: (?)
Interests and Life may initially seem irrelevant for minimalism, but keep in mind that people often prefer to add themselves to categories by education level, place of residence, time zone, age, and interest preference (to explain their editing interests). 
Considering all of this, I feel kind of concerned that this can end up being a collection of seemingly random, un-decipherable letters, that would mean nothing to someone not familiar with them. Things will really need to be looked at, to be sure it is "obvious" the meaning, or the point is lost. Ariel♥Gold 19:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest to keep the colon only for Wikipedia as WP or W and all others with dash for easier differentiation ℒibrarian2 19:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd disagree, consistency should be used. But that's just my opinion, it isn't such a big deal that I'd be upset if you want to do it that way.  Ariel♥Gold 19:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prefixes 

message: Okay another issue I just found, when you don't specify the full namespace, when you hover the mouse over it, it is not at all helpful. For instance, hover your mouse over WP:KIS. Now hover your mouse over WP:KIS. Big difference. I firmly believe in this project that all of the templates must have the full description in the link for hover-overs, that's just really needed, especially for things like the shortcut for that Time Tracing project, WP:TIMET, which does not give any idea what the item is, but when it becomes WP:TIMET, it just takes a second to find out what it is, and no navigation away from the page viewed. I doubt people will want to have to click forward and back to discover what all the labels mean, so I really think we should use the hover over option to help them. Thoughts? Jake this would mean some overhauls on your template, sorry  Ariel♥Gold 19:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a good point ℒibrarian2 19:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, that's easy to change. I'll do so as soon as they're stable. Jakew 19:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, don't you have to change how the template works first? My moving the old ones won't matter, I can change those as I go, but with the template, it needs to have the two options, one for the full Wikipedia name, and the other for the KIS designation, yes? (Again sorry if I'm confused) Ariel♥Gold 19:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By sheer luck, the template already handles two names. Set tgt to the destination page, and tgtname to the label text. Jakew 19:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Label hovername 

message: That can be addressed perhaps by having instead of one bar only, a kind of 5 racks stand, each one saying at the beginning "Projects", Languages", etc so each label goes in the corresponding rack? ℒibrarian2 19:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, that's getting into the area of forcing a user into a style of userpage, if you add columns. It should be something they could choose to do, but not something as default, I think. For the minimalist, they'd want one tiny line of small unobtrusive boxes to add themselves to categories. Not a large square table. (Again my opinion lol.) Ariel♥Gold 19:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I would prefer to keep it as simple as possible, by that reason I made the option of that line that looks like a simple rail. Can the box you made Jake look more simple ? ℒibrarian2 19:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: What about leaving the options we already have for aligning the boxes and just create one label that says "Hover here" or "Labels explanation" so it goes as first label always ? and when you hover it says what says the box Jake presented here ℒibrarian2 20:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of letters issue 

message: I want to congratulate you for this idea, it is something that was missing and will surely become part of Wikipedia as much as the boxes. I made for myself  please feel free to use or modificate, I donate it to KIS. Heltzen◩ 08:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that solution is one of those that are so blindingly obvious that nobody thought of it until now! I like it. Jakew 09:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Added to project page. I'll be working on moving all the existing labels over to user space this morning, so I appreciate you creating yours in User space lol. Thank you Heltzen! Ariel♥Gold 09:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I'm afraid I don't know what that is or how to do it :( Heltzen◩ 09:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You already did it. The one you made went into the "right" space: Template:User label KIS, when we'd previously been creating them in the "wrong" space, lol, you did a great job!   Ariel♥Gold 10:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very good idea 

message: You have seen probably the lapelpin barnstars I added to your well deserved barnstars guys. I think that you could propagate the use of KIS labels if you also make KIS barnstars  and add them to the barnstars messages, so people can use their well earned awards at their userpages without looking arrogant (to some "special" people, nothing wrong in showing what you earn :) !) or excessive. I created two in case you want to give a look:
::
::
I am sorry but cannot help much in this one but at least I make this contribution which may be helps to propagation of the concept Heltzen◩ 09:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those could look nice if they were aligned to the right of the rack, with labels on the left... Jakew 10:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propagation of KIS labels and Lapelpin Barnstars 

message: * Moved all templates to the user space per WP:USERBOX#Which namespace?.
* Removed all existing double redirects resulting from moves (and from previous moves of some templates).
* Updated look and format of label listing.
* Added prefix to all existing templates.
* Edited KIS Label design template to clarify proper usage.
* Added Jake's two themes to list, changed header title to "Display options".
* Changed header title of "Membership not required" to "How to help".
* Moved TOC below introduction on Project Page
* Added a slight blue border, and white background to page, to make the code boxes stand out.
Ariel♥Gold 12:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update 

message: Sorry to bother, I know you are working hard on this one, but could anyone, within available time, make the following labels? (no hurry)
:Pilot (would prefer aviator but pilot will do)
:WP:Martial Arts
Thanks in advance Heltzen◩ 13:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Heltzen, it is no bother at all! Please pick out a pilot userbox from this list that is appropriate for you, let me know which one you want, and I'll make it. I made the WikiProject Martial arts box. If you'd like a specific "interest" box, please choose from this list.  Ariel♥Gold 13:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that one, the other should be  but without the "professional" Thanks Heltzen◩ 14:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for clarity, that box says: 	This user is a certified commercial helicopter pilot. and links to Aviator. Which part didn't you want included, I don't see the word "professional" there. Ariel♥Gold 14:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry about that I meant "commercial" . Thanks Heltzen◩ 15:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okie Dokie! What would you like the label to be: Aviator or Pilot? (Saw your pref above) Ariel♥Gold 15:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you for these Heltzen◩ 17:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Ariel♥Gold 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Label request 

message: People! What have you done with the place? I though I was lost! It looks great!!! You are really making it work.  Now I feel pretty useless with my few coding (kind of Tarzan-Jane communication) and rookie Wikiexperience. Oh, Heltzen, thanks for the Barnstar, that was enormously kind  . 
Jake, I know what you mean, yes that is much better coding , go ahead if no one opposes. ℒibrarian2 15:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hee hee, I'm so happy you like it, Jake has been hard at work! Ariel♥Gold 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  OMG 

message: Please give your input as to whether you would support or oppose the automatic archiving of this talk page. If the support is in favor, I will go ahead and get it set up, with threads older than 5 days being auto-archived. (Yes, I'm lazy and don't like to scroll  ) Ariel♥Gold 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say yes ℒibrarian2 15:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, absolutely. Jakew 19:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it just the four of us right now? (With Heltzen) I see no reason not to, especially if this ends up generating requests, so I'll go ahead and set it up. Everything will stay, just in an archived space. If we find 5 days is too short, we can always change that, but it seems like the average time. Ariel♥Gold 20:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving discussion 

message: I've spun out Wikipedia:WikiProject Keep It Simple/Options, have written documentation on using label themes, and have written a short section on the main project page that explains how to use the default theme. Any comments/suggestions? Jakew 19:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Took a look, did some tiny formatting tweaks. Added one example to project page. (We need to have something that shows the usefulness there) and re-worded it a bit. I was looking at the padding on the purple box, and it is not even. Is there a way to make sure that the top and bottom "blank space" is even? Currently, the top has about twice as much padding. Otherwise, looks awesome, as always Jake! Great job! Ariel♥Gold 20:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You were quite right, now fixed. Jakew 00:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I replaced the example in the main page for the simplest model, I hope is OK ℒibrarian2 07:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: Jake, is there any way to make the label racks work like my blue nested table, in that the "rack" (bar, line, whatever it is termed) isn't full width automatically, and instead grows with the labels as you add them? It seems that here's this entire bar, and it goes all the way across the screen, and only has 1-2 labels. Granted, this might be just a personal thing, and nobody else may care, but if it is an easy thing to fix, I think it might be a valid option to consider, a variable-width one, that can be centered, so that it is really unobtrusive if only a couple labels are on it, or it could be expanded to full width if many labels are on it. Ariel♥Gold 13:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It turns out that this is ludicrously difficult to do correctly. I'll try to figure out how to do it, but as a temporary solution I've added iwidth and owidth parameters to . iwidth controls the width of the inner box, while owidth controls the width of the outer box. Some examples:
Hope this helps. Jakew 18:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah that's exactly what I meant, I think the last one would work perfectly for people who only have a couple labels to display. As always, you rock! Ariel♥Gold 19:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rack design 

message: ℒibrarian2 21:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice... Very cute. Jakew 19:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just for fun 

message: What do you think?  07:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info label 

message: Can someone make a label for  and add it to WP:AVIATION?  Thank you Heltzen◩ 09:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done! (See the project's talk page, there seems to be some sort of category issue that I could not figure out) Ariel♥Gold 19:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for label 

message: Do you want to create a label for: 
* 
and can you add it to your user pages (if you share the opinion) ? We are trying to expand this campaign. Thank you for considering it Vanished user 11:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not completed for now: Requesting editor has been blocked indefinitely. Will reconsider if someone else wants this as a label. Ariel♥Gold 19:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  You seem nice people 

message: I've made a few changes to . These are:
#In recognition of the fact that users might want to add explanatory text, might want multiple racks, and might not like , I've added an infotext parameter to the rack.
#I've added a category parameter to the rack, mainly to make it easy to add :Category:User KIS. I'm tempted to change this to add this category by default, but allow a 'nocat'-style override - any comments?
#This template now has documentation!
Example usage:



Jakew 14:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The explanatory thing is very useful . The cat should go by default in my opinion, it will spread the existence of this ℒibrarian2 19:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really like this better than having the label itself explain. Very nice job Jake, as always! Ariel♥Gold 19:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: When you have time Jake or Ariel, can you do one at the page Wikipedia talk:Please do not bite the newcomers and at WP:UPDATE? Sorry to bother but I don't know what I make  wrong that I cannot get the info when hovering so I didn't finish to make those . If you explain me I make them in the future and don't need to bother you guys ℒibrarian2 19:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Ariel♥Gold 19:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. Ariel♥Gold 20:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two labels 

message: I think that the description should have the full project name: 
This a Keep It Simple Label to indicate...
(This a Keep It Simple Label to indicate)
Instead of: 
This a KIS label to indicate...
(This a KIS label to indicate)
Again, for hover-over reasons, but just because I think it is best to fully explain the project name on the separate templates, if someone was directed there from somewhere other than this project page. 
Thoughts? Ariel♥Gold 20:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems reasonable. I think that we're going to have to write a 'creating labels' subpage shortly. Jakew 21:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When creating labels 

message: Just look at Neranei go to town on making these language labels! What a trooper, I only mentioned in passing I was working on this, and next thing I know, she's off and running, how awesome is that? We're lucky! Ariel♥Gold 23:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vroooom!! 

message: Title: What a speed
Just came by to see how you are doing, what a speed! congrats, never saw a project taking off so fast. Well done! Heltzen◩ 13:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jake fixed that for you Heltzen, sorry! Ariel♥Gold 04:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you people :) Heltzen◩ 16:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Congratulations 

message: Okay, I just noticed this, but there is no category for members of this project who are not ones to use the labels. The WP:KIS label says "This a Keep It Simple Label to indicate to visitors how to read your KIS Labels. It automatically adds users who display it to the category for users who prefer to KIS (Keep It Simple)." But it is an assumption that the user uses the labels instead of userboxes. I'm not one of those, but I would consider myself a member of this project. So I am thinking of creating a "Membership" category instead, opinions? Thoughts? Ariel♥Gold 04:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am kind of an outsider but I will gladly see that category as a good thing Heltzen◩ 16:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category 

message: It's been a while since  userboxes were banished from the template namespace. What I see now is that they have basically been recreated as , only they look innocent. Is there any reason why  can't be used everywhere? (Read: substitute all instances of other templates so  becomes  for example.) Thankfully, due to their simplicity, these boxes do not recreate a problem of divisiveness, they do however cause a lot of noise in the templatespace. I predict problems with this, sooner or later. :-/ Миша13 21:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Misza!! I'm not sure what issues there were in the past, I don't use these labels, but I was asked to help with design stuff when the project was new, but as it turns out, Jakew did most of the coding for the labels, and I honestly have no clue how they work anymore, lol. What is the history here? There was something just like this in the past? If you can give some history on whatever the past problems were, that'd help. As for substitution, well userboxes are not substituted, so why would mini-userboxes be? Again maybe a stupid question just because I don't get the coding problem, whatever that is, lol. Maybe Jake can figure out what the problem is and fix it, but I admit I'm pretty lost now with how the labels work, I'm not even sure I could make one anymore, lol. I do think it would be best if labels were created on request for obscure things like what country one lives in, obscure languages, etc. But, that's only my own opinion. Ariel♥Gold 11:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:USERBOX#Creating a new userbox states that userboxes may be created in the Template: namespace, but only if they meet certain criteria. Is that not correct anymore? Jakew (talk) 21:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Userboxes 

message: I just want to thank you Jake for the wonderful idea and the very appealing design of the userbox for labels. Besides all the work he has done creating the labels and the racks since start, this idea of the box is just great.
I also want to thank Mike for his kind interest in approaching this project with such an interesting and appealing idea of the icon-corner, it is indeed a great idea for Keeping It Simple in an alternative but compatible way with the KIS labels and racks.
I believe that with these two great ideas the users who want simpler layouts can make some leaps forward. Thank you guys. ℒibrarian2 19:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I thank you both for the encouragement.  Making my templates look good in combination with yours may take some fiddling... I'll see what I can do.  (At the moment Internet Explorer still cuts off the top border line of the labels...) Mike Serfas (talk) 06:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Icons are looking very nice ℒibrarian2 13:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New ideas 

message: Should Hobbies be under L: or Int:? I presume hobbies are generally more active than interests are, necessarily. I just realized I made Go, and put it under Int: -- probably because, for me, it's more of an interest (thing to think about) than hobby (thing to do). However, for most players of the game, it's likely the opposite.
Any thoughts? — gogobera (talk) 00:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hobbies? 

message: WP: B: Int: L: W: O:
Is it just me, or do the categories as they stand seem a bit off? I feel like L: is a much larger category than the rest: With a description including "Life", it's actually hard to think of any aspect that couldn't fall under L:.
I was wondering two things:
* Could we nest categories? E.G. L:ED: for Life:Education:? This would include things like alma-mater's (or current schools), degrees, certifications, etc.
* We remove L: since it's the only category that seems so overburdened, at the moment. Leave L:, but not for "Life, etc" but for "Location". Add ED: for education as mentioned above.
Hmmm. Ok, looking at how it's done over in Userbox-land, I see the rational for the current setup. The difference is that over here, we have some odd (some empty) sub-catagories. I guess there aren't enough boxes yet to warrant sub-pages, but would anyone object if I carried over the userbox hierarchy point-by-point? Ah, what the hell, I'll just go ahead and see if I can fix it up how I like it! :) Please, if anyone wants to, undo, and we can discuss. Or we can discuss even if you don't undo! OK, here goes nothin'. — gogobera (talk) 03:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I changed the order of some things, and added some blank headings as examples. Also, I plan on filling in some of these. Otherwise, they're mainly useful as suggestions and can be deleted if they're really bothering someone. Hopefully this will help the project: Instead of duplicating the work done with userboxes, we can inherit their hierarchy -- for free!
This seems like a good idea to me, though I am not sure what has happened in the last five years. :) --Daemox (talk) 05:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: Any template that has  transcluded into it will be categorized into :Category:Keep It Simple templates. Only templates will be categorized as such. Have a nice day! - LA (T) 08:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|User label}} now categorizes its transclusions 

message: so is this still active? As you've been nominated for deletion... 70.24.248.23 (talk) 05:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Active 

message: The main KIS template, , and the others branching from it, are being discussed for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 February 6#Template:User_label. The main templates may move to subpages of this one. I am preparing a recommendation at User:PC-XT/KIS. Feel free to comment on the talk page, or even add labels, or comment on ones already listed in the article itself, if you have an opinion. PC-XT (talk) 05:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean feel free to edit User:PC-XT/KIS or its talk page. Also, feel free to comment on the TfD, of course. PC-XT (talk) 05:53, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfD