Talk:Jami

message: Was he Afghan??  Falphin 00:33, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Afghan?

message: Completely inaccurate and out of context. As if that needs to be stated. SouthernComfort 09:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have reason to think that this is incorrect?  Given that it does indeed provide references, I'm not clear what your objection is. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 22:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Is there a reason to disagree with this interpretation?  Is it controversial?  Are there conflicting interpretations?  There should surely be some genune ground for doubt if the article is to be disfigured with the template? --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 10:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish to take exception to SC's personalization of the discussion. I do not see this disagreement as being essentially between SC and myself, but rather a conflict between presenting previously censored material accurately vs. blurring its nature. SC's contention that these historical facts are nothing other than somebody's opinion is not tenable. There may be times when such a formulation is appropriate (specifically when we are presenting a minoritarian view). However, the topos of pederasty in Islamic literature, thought and religion has been discussed and explored by many in the East and the West, both in the past and in recent times. Thus the circumlocution of claiming these notions to be merely "the subjective interpretation of an author" - already inserted by SC in various articles in one form or another - serves only to dilute the sense of the articles, and is - probably unintentionally - deceptive. Haiduc 01:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to strongly disagree with you. There are "historical facts" as regards these figures, because very little is known about their personal lives. All that we have, essentially, are their works, and to judge them based upon their works is indeed a subjective interpretation of the translator or scholar in question. Strictly speaking, to attach any claims of "sacred pederasty" to this poet's works is just that, a claim, and cannot and should not be presented as fact. If it was indeed "fact" then it would be widely accepted amongst scholars - there is no evidence of this. SouthernComfort 04:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I disagree, Mel, and my concerns are valid and I have stated as much in my recent edit summary reverting your removal of the tag. That paragraph is not clearly sourced, and if only one source was used, it must be disambiguated as being the theory or claim of the writer in question. It cannot be stated as fact for the reasons I have outlined. We may agree to disagree, but you cannot say that my argument is not valid. SouthernComfort 11:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the tag again, and am listing the article at RfC; let's see what other editors say. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 15:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not remove the tag until the dispute is resolved. As an admin, you should be well aware of this. SouthernComfort 17:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't remove the tag, there is obviously a dispute here. We can't say that Jami's poetry "deals extensively with the esoteric topic of pederasty" as Jami never discusses "pederasty",  his narrative is metaphoric and spiritual, not literal. --ManiF 22:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you're appealing to your interpretation of what he wrote.  What is the claim here: that the article is guilty of interpretation, or that it isn't? --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 11:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exactly how familiar are you with Persian poetry or poetry in general? Jami is called a "mystical poet" by all the major sources , I'm simply describing what a "mystical poet"'s narrative is, metaphoric and spiritual. The article however is guilty of subjective interpretation, none of the other major encyclopedias associate Jami's work as "Pederasty" or any other such adjectives. These allegations are at best original research, supported by obscure sources. None of the mainstream sources make any such connections between Jami and "Pederasty". As NPOV clearly states "views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." --ManiF 12:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Please look up Jami in every major encyclopedia out there, there is no mention of this "Pederasty" business in any of them, because it's radical, unconventional and controversial claim to those familiar with Persian poetry and its principal themes and preoccupations. If there was any significance or truth to this claim, there would be at least a hint of it in other major encyclopedias. This is a case of NPOV, as "views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." --ManiF 04:56, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this rejection of the existence of pederastic themes in Jami a blanket rejection of such themes in Persian poetry, or only in the work of Jami? How are we to view examples provided by the quoted scholars and others, which, in translation, treat of the desire of men for beautiful boys? Haiduc 10:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What pederastic themes? Give a direct example. This discussion is going nowhere unless both sides can see the information. I tried googling for Jami pederasty, and the only sites that came up were mirrors of Wikipedia, sites which promote homosexuality, such as this one, and they were using Janet Afary as a source. I haven't found any actual direct quote of Persian poetry, just vague references such as “Classical Persian literature—like the poems of Attar (died 1220), Rumi (d. 1273), Sa’di (d. 1291), Hafez (d. 1389), Jami (d. 1492), and even those of the 20th century Iraj Mirza (d. 1926)—are replete with homoerotic allusions, as well as explicit references to beautiful young boys and to the practice of pederasty..." In all of the Iranian poetry I have read, I have never heard of any reference to pederasty whatsoever. So, show me the actual "homoerotic allusions" in Persian poetry. In fact, I see the opposite here, where the only reference to children is a girl! Kirbytime 06:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sacred pederasty

message: Can we have some of his poetry in Persian on the article? -- -  K a s h  Talk | email 00:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How's that useful to the reader? AucamanTalk 09:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Many Persian poet articles have it and its always been useful for me -- -  K a s h  Talk | email 16:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would probably be useful to me too, but this the English Wikipedia. Maybe you should put it in Wikiquotes and make a link from this article? AucamanTalk 20:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well we could have the English translation of his poems. --Khoikhoi 21:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, preferably with sources. AucamanTalk 00:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian quotes 

message: I didn't get to finish my edit summary here. Saying he was the greatest Persian poet of 15 century is a little too absolute of a statement - especially when unsourced. The greatness of Poetry in general is very subjective and varies from person to person. AucamanTalk 00:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How great of you. AucamanTalk 03:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit summary

message: In parenthesis, I would like to note that my picture "titles" were not false, a picture like that has no inherent title, merely a description. But, mostly, I would like to suggest that we all step back a few paces and not get caught up in what is becoming pointless turmoil. Editing should not be an exercise of force but of reason, and when reason fails force will not save the day. Let's all give this a rest. I am not interested in documenting the Persian boy love tradition in this or any other personage article if it will result in this kind of escalating violence. On the other hand I would request those who are opposing this line of thought to inform themselves by reading recent scholarship on this topic. What if we call a three-month time out for all of us to settle down and perhaps deepen our study of the topic before we return to it? Haiduc 21:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cooling off period? 

message: Trying to get the name right for another project. The article lead has his name as "Nur ad-Din Abd ar-Rahman Jami" but the Wikisource link has him as Abdorrahman Jami. Searching around I found other variations: Moulana Nuruddin Abdorrahman Jami and  Nour o-Din Abdorrahman Jami. Anyone want to figure it out or add more variations? CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Different full names for Jami

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thread_title:  External links modified