Template talk:Nihongo/Archive 1

message: Short recap of the process causing the ?:
#I suggested using a template. I used the ? because I saw something similar on a media link and I liked it.
#Exploding Boy suggested to use an image for clarity.
#I suggested using a help icon.
#Lord Ameth suggested putting the link on the kanji.
#Philip N. was afraid a link on the kanji would confuse new users.
#Lord Ameth agreed with Philip N.
#I did a mockup using a small leaflet with a blue question mark.
#Exploding Boy thought it was hard to see and suggested using another colour.
#I thought it was perhaps too light or too small.
#Exploding Boy thought the large version looked good.
#Philip N. noted underline problems.
#I added the large leaflet to the template on the basis that everyone seemded to be happy with it.
#Lord Ameth thinks the ? clutters the template.
#DannyWilde suggested using a flag or 日本語.
#I opposed that idea.
#DannyWilde suggested dropping the link altogether.
Opinions until now (feel free to add your vote or change your mind):
*Exploding Boy: large leaflet
*Lord Ameth: no link on kanji; ? → no ?
*Philip N.: no link on kanji; ? (_ problems with large leaflet)
*DannyWilde: flag, 日本語 or nothing or super-?
*me: super-?
*:However, if someone thinks up a way to link to a help page without having the leaflet/? in the body of the text, fine.
Shinobu 15:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just came over to this page to suggest getting rid of the ? in some way.  I'd be OK with dropping it, or changing the kanji to a link.  The link leads to a page explaining Japanese orthography - if someone doesn't know how that works, and the "strange symbols" are a link, that seems like where they would click.  If there must be a ? of some sort, I'd vote for the white ? in blue circle (standardized information icon) suggested below.
DenisMoskowitz 14:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Mockup ? in cirlce: lorem ipsum dolor sit est non iam consectetur nisi enim voluptat Tokyo (東京都, Tōkyō-to ●?) lorem ipsum dolor sit est non iam consectetur nisi enim voluptat. Hm… not that bad but we would probably need an image because stuff like this always screws up at small font sizes. Shinobu 16:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The superscript is an excellent solution. I wonder why I didn't think of that before... thanks! Shinobu 19:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the small question mark is definitely better. Thanks. --DannyWilde 00:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just remember that whatever you guys decide here, it's probably going to take a lot of getting used to for the regular wikipedia readers, it's almost impossible to expect even a slight majority of acceptance for no matter what you do. Your average wiki guy doesn't want any help, no matter how useful it is to the average mojo.  freshgavin TALK   01:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

text: They wil either flood this page with complaints or turn the question mark off. Japanese-Guru's will probably do so, but to someone who only stumbles onto Japanese once in a whiel the link provides a quick clean recap of Japanese spelling etc. The superscript has made it a lot less "intrusive", so I think we're safe now. By the way, should Japanese name order be discussed on the help page? Shinobu 06:05, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: When those issues are worked out they will be clearly stated on Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) so this page should link directly to there.  freshgavin TALK   05:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recap and vote on question mark 

message: :Lifted from User_talk:LordAmeth:
I've looked through some of the converted articles, and it seems to work okay. However, in cases like Minamoto no Noriyori this happens:
(1156-1193)
Is ")(" intentional? Should we make a template that allows for inclusion of extra info, should we simply add a space, like so:  (1156-1193), or is it okay as it is now?
Yours sincerely, Shinobu 15:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's up to you guys what you'd like to do. Adding a space is no problem, as I just need to leave a space after the template. Personally, I like it this way rather than including multiple types of information within one set of parentheses. Keeps things distinct. LordAmeth 02:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: No room for dates etc. in parens

message: I've just come across this on another page: 
	This page contains Indic text. Without rendering support, you may see irregular vowel positioning and a lack of conjuncts. More...
Something like this could solve some of our problems re: text appearing incorrectly / naming order.
Exploding Boy 19:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If we really want this, we could use a template that uses this one and puts the box there. I would suggest to use as little text as possible in the box, preferrably at a smaller font size. Is there a way to make a template include something only the first time it's called? Shinobu 10:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a subjective impression again, but at a first glance, I don't want this so much. It's clutter. --DannyWilde 13:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, you're right. It doesn't answer any questions that the help-link doesn't answer. However, it could provide an alternative if we could include it only once and at a location where it doesn't interrupt the article flow. Has anyone got an idea on how to use the cat system for this or something? Shinobu 18:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Floating box

message: Possible template scenario for an infobox on first occurrence:
* does what it does now, possibly whithout ?.
* calls nihongo and displays an infobox, appending extra (defaults to empty) at the end of the infobox.
* could call nihongo1 with extra containing a short notice on japanese names.
Just some suggestions, nothing more. Shinobu 07:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible infobox scenario 

message: Since it's help about the kanji, shouldn't the question mark go after the kanji, rather than after the optional romaji? --DannyWilde 08:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the second section (Japanese pronunciation) is about the romaji as well. Shinobu 14:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Question mark after the kanji

message: On Japanese plane, in the reference section, I had a problem with the template doubling the romaji. It insisted on producing the name of the book in romaji twice unless I put a (kanji) space there. This seems to be a bug in the template. --DannyWilde 15:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ouch! I'll fix it ASAP. Shinobu 17:36, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I think the  cause the problem... The italics markers outside the template interfere with those inside the template. In effect two markers intended as start-italics are combined to form start- and end-italics. This causes a span with display:none to be cut off (before the end-italics). So that causes the problem. Since it's caused by the ambiguity of the start-italics and end-italics in wikitext, using html i-tags in the template should solve this problem. Tests seem to indicate it works. So I'll implement this then. Shinobu 18:21, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for fixing the problem. --DannyWilde 02:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

text: You're welcome. Shinobu 07:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Problem with doubled romaji

message: I've defaulted the 3d parameter to empty on Template:Nihongo/Sandbox. Unless anyone has any objections (due to it not working in certain circumstances for example) the changes made there will be moved here. Perhaps it is also possible to add pages omitting the first and second parameter to some category. Since obviously omitting either of them is probably a mistake/typo, adding those instances to a category would facilitate finding these. Shinobu 13:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Defaulted 3d param to empty

message: I've cooked up a bit of script to do this. First you hide all help-links (as described on Help:Japanese). Then you make the first one visible again. Since it's a first version it should still be considered experimental, but it seems to work for me.
 // User:Gerbrant/NihongoReviveFirstHelpLink.js
 document.write('<script type="text/javascript" src="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Gerbrant/NihongoReviveFirstHelpLink.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script>');
If you try this and it works, or if it breaks something, please leave me a note. Shinobu 14:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Script to show only the first help-link 

message: Is this a good self reference that should be in all articles?  Or multiple places in one article?  I don't know... I think the help link may have some validity at the beginning of the articles... but, I also am wary about not having "Japanese:" which helps users who don't know the script tell which language it is right away.  It's also really simple to code without a template.  I suppose not if you want the help link... gren グレン ? 05:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I basically feel that this replaces the "Japanese:/Ja:" tags, though I sometimes use them anyways at the beginning of an article.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  00:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Help:Japanese]] 

message: I've changed to template in the Sandbox to use  instead of  and the other meta-templates. It should help slightly with server load and makes things easier to manage as you are only dealing with one template instead of four.
On other thing I would change would be to change lit to extra. That way it can handle translations into English or birth–death dates for people. The latter of would make it conform better with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Comments? --TheFarix (Talk) 12:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was planning on examining a possible change to qif, to see if it would help, but I never got around to do it. Thanks. Having one template should also make editing and managing it in the future easier. Have you checked whether the changed template contains all the right css-classes and is well behaved when parameters are missing? Shinobu 21:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I've checked Template talk:Nihongo/Sandbox, and made a minor tweak. It looks okay, is more managable, so if this really decreases server load as well, then you're good to go. *switches on the green light* Shinobu 22:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should as it's only making two calls to a meta-template instead of four using the other method. I am going to change the "lit" parameter to "extra". It would be more flexible that way when you want to put additional information inside the (). So instead of having something like , you will have  --TheFarix (Talk) 22:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think there's something subtle wrong with the comma... because of earlier decisions, it should normally only be visible when both Hepburn and extra are present, otherwise it should be hidden by default. Or perhaps not. The discussion on why the comma should(n't) be there is in the MoS-JrA talk, I think. Just tell me that this comma is nothing to worry about, so that I can be at peace. Shinobu 09:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had the comma hidden like it is with the 3rd parameter, but someone took that part out and had the comma show regardless. I'm also hesitant to add another  call to this template. Maybe later when native support of conditionals is introduced into MediaWiki. --TheFarix (Talk) 16:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using {{tl|qif}} instead of {{tl|call}} 

message: I agree with various users above that this template seems to serve no useful purpose, and the current image makes every Japanese word look like a question.  Exploding Boy 02:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More complaints about this template

message: I'm just wondering how useful almost all of those span are in the template. I think all but one can be safely removed. I would still include  around the Kanji even though I have questions about its usefulness or if it is just cruft from before Wikipedia started using the utf-8 characterset. --TheFarix (Talk) 20:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The spans define CSS classes that can be overridden by the user. For example to remove the help link, or (using script) to show only the first, or to format the various parts as desired. Although some clutter could perhaps be removed if the style=xyzzy attributes were to be moved to the stylesheet, but I imagine that will not happen unless we create common classes that also apply to other languages than Japanese. It just wouldn't be justified to change the global stylesheet just for this template. Shinobu 23:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But none of the CSS classes are documented, and very readers or editors even know that they exist. Because of that, the CSS classes are nearly useless clutter. --TheFarix (Talk) 00:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually they are documented (follow the help link on the template, "See also" section). A few examples are provided, and an example script should be on a talk page somewhere, but I've forgotten where. Shinobu 16:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That documentation is buried rather deeply, perhaps too deeply for anyone to notice. So I still doubt that editors and readers have overridden the CSS classes to any significant extent. --TheFarix (Talk) 17:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather deeply? No, not really. Anyway, from previous discussions, I am almost certain that some people have removed the help link. Removing that span will break that. Also if someone wants to print an article there must be some way to remove such a link, as it will only be useful in the on-screen version. Also, there was a very old discussion about whether romaji should be given if it were the same as the equivalent English term. That was around the time this template started (and one of the reasons the norom-span is there) - people in the "yes-it-should" camp can specify this. By the way, why do you want the spans removed so badly? As far as I can tell they're not really hurting anyone, the classes probably can't be more than 30% of the text. Deleting them will kill functionality without offering a marked benefit. As for your first question: no these spans are not cruft from before the UTF-8 introduction, they are there to provide styling and scripting functionality. Perhaps, in an ideal world, you would be able to override certain templates from the skins, and templates would look more compact. (And it would allow me to override the dab template - I like the ones at the other Wikipedias much better...) But this is not the case. Shinobu 00:26, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing some of the spans 

message: Is the extra2 parameter meant to put stuff outside the closing brace? If so, is there a semantic difference between "...|extra2=lorem}}" and "...}} lorem"? I appreciate the chance that I might be missing something. Shinobu 23:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, extra2 comes after the parentheses. The only time you will notice a difference is when the template is preceded by a ';' as part of a definition list. In such cases extra2 will be within the "font-weight: normal" span and not be in bold, whereas it would be bold if the text came after the template. --TheFarix (Talk) 00:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay... have you documented it yet? Shinobu 15:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not yet. --TheFarix (Talk) 17:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  extra2 parameter 

message: Well, since this argument is months old and seems to have been decided, this is probably a moot issue, but I though I'd put up another alternative.  Three forms I considered—
existing: English (邦字 Romaji?)
text form 'Help': English (邦字 RomajiHelp)
text form 'Help?': English (邦字 RomajiHelp?)
Lastly, would it possible to add code to the template to have the help link customizable by the article writer?  For instance, to switch between two forms, or supress it in an article with a large number of Japanese words, e.g.:
 versus
 versus
 ?
I suppose this would force someone to use all the pipes to 
customize the behavior, but it would allow a modicum of control.  In practice it could be used as such:  to supress the Help:Japanese link altogether.
I'm not skilled enough—with CSS, Templates, Parsing, whatever it may be—to know if this could be done. --Tsuji 19:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've tinkered about, and it seems possible.  This addition would provide a method of allowing an author to alter the basic template behavior.  This can be done without breaking anything that I can see, so it should be pretty much backwards compatible.  Give me a while longer to tinker and I'll show you what I've come up with.  And please, if anyone has any comments on this, do share.  The version I've made also addresses the italization issue at Template_talk:Nihongo#Italic kanji.  Well, I suppose this means it's not backward compatible, really.  But it's a minor change— I think a good one. --Tsuji 06:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If anyone wants to see this edited version, check out Template:Nihongo-Dev or see examples at Template talk:Nihongo-Dev.  Check 'em out. --Tsuji 06:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've looked at them. The ability to remove the question mark is useful. Allowing the help-link to appear different on different articles leads to inconsistency, a problem this template is supposed to solve, and I also dislike the need for quotes. An idea: Have a parameter that makes the template default to ?, but when supplied as an empty parameter remove the ?. This can be done with default values, I think. Also, does anyone know if there is a Wikipedia class for stuff that should not be printed? If everything works fine, I'll compare the two templates, test some more, and when everything works fine I'll merge the results back here. Shinobu 01:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: P.S. The ? was chosen because it's about as non-intrusive you can get. Shinobu 01:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Why not "info" rather than "help"?  As the template stands right now, the question mark is so small on my screen it just looks like a tiny blue stain.  Exploding Boy 18:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another comment on the ? mark 

message: A user-configured browser can display Japanese kanji and kana in a font specifically made for Japanese by means of language information embedded in the text. Future versions of web browsers will hopefully base the decision which font to display text in on the script the text is written in rather than the text's language. To support this, I suggest we embed the necessary information using ISO 15924 codes like so:
*Change lang="ja" to either lang="ja-Japn" or lang="jpn-Japn". *
*At a later stage, change  to .This second change may not be a good thing to do yet: As long as browsers decide by language rather than script, they will display the romanisation in a Japanese font – which may not quite be the best solution (although I've seen it done in a pinyin template).
See also Understanding the New Language Tags (World Wide Web Consortium). Wikipeditor 2006-09-12
:What would have your vote? Ja or jpn? You can test in this template's sandbox if it works, if you wish. Shinobu 00:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Embed script information 

message: Please change the Chinese interwiki from :zh:Template:Japanese to :zh:Template:Nihongo. This new one is the inline template, while the old one is a box outside the text. -- Tomchiukc 05:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done--Konst.ableTalk 00:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update Chinese interwiki 

message: Hi there. Could someone please add this template to :Category:Multilingual support templates? Thanks. Mike Dillon 17:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done --   Netsnipe  ►  17:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

text: That would be nice. It's now located at the T instead of the N. Shinobu 17:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done--Konst.ableTalk 00:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks! Shinobu 00:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category addition 

message: I propose two changes, for clarity I'll give you the sandbox link:
suggested wikitext
As you can see it does two things:
*Wrap the question mark in a noprint tag. On paper such a link is useless, and it would not be professional to have it show up on paper.
*Make sure the kanji is not italicised when the template is called from within a piece of italic text. This is to comply with MoS guidelines on this matter.
I'll wait a while for your reactions.
If everyone is okay with this,
I'll see if an admin comes by to help us.
Shinobu 17:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed changes 

message: There appears to be a bug when this template is used in the name field of . It only happens with Internet Explorer. See screenshot . Discussion is here. Suggestions are welcome. Prolog 18:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Replied there. Shinobu 05:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for reply.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  00:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IE-related bug

message: In Chinese Wikipedia, we mostly use :zh:Template:Japanese for japan related articles, some Wikipedian doesn't know the rule. The Nihongo Template is requesting for delete, so please change link , thanks.--Burning Flame 01:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. -- ReyBrujo 01:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Chinese Wikipedia link 

message: Please incorporate my change of the sandbox into the template. Thank you.--GunnarRene 01:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean this change? -- ReyBrujo 01:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The template is sometimes over-used. --GunnarRene 08:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit made. EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. --GunnarRene 01:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MOS-JP