Talk:Jim Jones/Archive 1

message: User talk:82.35.153.30
Hi where is your reference that at the mass suicide at Jonestown people were injected with poison? I have never read it. I will revert your change unless you give the references. Andries 18:59, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How many areas does a human body actually have that can not be reached by ones own hand? Jcbos 01:36, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled Conversation 

message: Sociologist Gordon Melton wrote:
:Jim Jones was the pastor of the Peoples Temple, a large California congregation of the prominent liberal Protestant denomination, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). Jones had become an advocate of a radical form of Marxist liberation theology, then a popular perspective in liberal Protestantism. However, while he was praised within his denomination and other Protestant churches, for his social outlook and work on racial harmony, he was not without his harsh critics. In 1977, he moved with hundreds of his church members, mostly African Americans, to Guyana, where the church had previously established a small agricultural colony 
So I think the article should mention his previous connection to mainline Christianity, as well as any influences (such as Marxism) which prompted him to depart from the mainstream. The media makes him sound like an independently spawned monster. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:14, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
you should also mention that JOnes was one of the first pastors to integrate blacks into a mainstream congregation....something that didnt fly well in Indiana.....
joeyjosef@yahoo.com
I think this article  is so awful because allot of kids had died without no say so in it i feel really bad because they went through so much before there death.There was told to be no kid servitor's only 10 adults survived and no of them had kids because all the parents with kids died with them because the parents felt they needed to leave with there kids!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camellia Johnson (talk • contribs) 19:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins and influences 

message: Father Divine died in 1965 after Jones was born. So the assertion that Jones claimed to be reincarnation of Father Divine does not make sense to me. Any explanations? Andries 21:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Joey, could you please edit this article and use reliable references (Raven?). U seem to know a lot about the man. Thanks. Andries 22:13, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim to be a reincarnation of [[Father Divine]]? 

message: I mean, really.  There's more about whether or not he was gay than about the whole Jonestown business.    There's stuff in the Jonestown article which could be imported. john k 14:52, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I admit that this article is really bad. I had put this article on requests for expansion months ago but to no avail until now. Andries 17:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this article so awful? 

message: Please provide references within one week for the following sentnence or I will remove it. The sentences looks doubtful to me because Stephan is described in the quite recent book Hearing the voices of Jonestown by Mary McCormick Maaga as alive and kicking. Thanks. 
:"[Stephan Jones] died when someone put a bullet into his head from a close range shotgun shot, apparently because of revenge by a Mundy whose family was killed in the suicide."
Also, what does the word "Mundy" mean? It is not in two dictionaries that I checked. Please use only standard English: this is an international encyclopedia in English language.
Andries 09:25, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Stephan Jones murdered? Please provide references 

message: I read in the book by McCormick Maaga, in contrast to what had been written in this article that only about a dozen corpses received autopsies. I have corrected this. I do not remember the exact nr. so I wrote "less than twenty". Andries 14:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autopsies 

message: In general, I urge all contributors to this article to read reliable sources and to cite them accurately because there seems to be many myths about the man and we have to be strict to keep the nonsense and disinformation out of this article (the autopsie mistake hereabove is a good example). I am aware that there is much to improve regarding citation and attributing opinions, and dates in this article and I am co-responsible for this, but I cannot do it alone. Thanks. Andries 14:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations and keeping the untruths out of this article 

message: Any connection between Jones and the CIA? My first clue was a Michael Franti lyric that goes, "the CIA runnin’ like that Jones from Indiana but they still won’t talk about that Jones in Guyana", and web investigation revealed that the LaRouche people connect him to CIA mind-control operations.  That bunch is pretty nuts but a lot of their research is solid (even though their conclusions may not be).  Is there anything to this?  Or are we just going to have to wait till the documents are declassified?--Rockero 20:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA 

message: I think that Jones word about the suicide was an advice, not an order. Of course, Jones had big authority so the followers have seen Jones' advice as an order, but he voiced his view on the suicide as an advice. Here is the transcript of the final speech, just before the suicide. 
:"JONES: (Inaudible.) ... Don't, don't fail to follow my advice. You'll be sorry. You'll be sorry. If we do it, than that they do it. Have trust. You have to step across. (Music.) We used to think this world was--this world was not our home--well, it sure isn't--we were saying--it sure wasn't.  
:He doesn't want to tell them. All he's doing--if they will tell them-- assure these kids. Can't some people assure these children of the relaxation of stepping over to the next plane? They set an example for others. We said --one thousand people who said, we don't like the way the world is.  
:VOICE: Take some.  
:JONES: Take our life from us. We laid it down. We got tired. We didn't commit suicide, we committed an act of revolutionary suicide protesting the conditions of an inhumane world.  "
Andries 21:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advice or order? 

message: I hope you guys are aware that there's a rapper called Jim Jones, and his name leads here with no redirects to his page at Jim Jones (rapper). I Am Ri¢h 01:07, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jim Jones the Rapper 

message: This article categorizes Jones as a mass murderer and murderer. But I think there is no evidence that he personally ordered mass murder. Yes, he advised suicide, but mass murder? Where is the evidence? I also think that the evidence that he was a murderer is doubtful. He has probably ordered the murder of members of the Ryan visiting party, though I do not think this is proven. Does ordering someone to murder make someone a murderer? I do not know about this. Comments and references are requested. Thanks Andries 21:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that there were almost certainly people who resisted the mass suicide at Jonestown and were force-fed or involuntarily injected with the poison, as well as it being fed to children who had no idea of what they were doing, it is reasonable to call him a mass murderer. And yes, legally, someone who orders another to commit a murder is responsible for it. And if you don't think Jones was aware of what was going to happen to the senator Ryan, listen to the suicide tape.24.151.79.108 06:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: There are many examples of someone being responsible for the orders they give, from murder-for-hire to Adolf Hitler.  How many people did Hitler himself personally kill?  A few, grant you, but he is generally regarded as being responsible for millions of deaths -- he did not personally kill every one of them.  When you are in authority and it is expected others will carry out your orders, ordering the death of someone is itself an action that kills and makes one personally responsible for the act of killing.  --Chibiabos 10:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whom did Jones murder? 

message: "Jones was selling pet monkeys to raise money to start a church." (from the San Francisco Chronicle)
"After working as a hospital orderly and a methodist minister, he founded his own church in 1953, which he at first financed by working as a door-to-door monkey salesman."
"A failed door-to-door monkey salesman, Jim Jones (1931-1978), founded his own church in 1953, which he later renamed The People's Temple Full Gospel Church."
A photograph of Jones with a pair of monkeys.
Biography did a Jim Jones episode in which they state that he was a door-to-door monkey salesman.
My conclusion is that Jim Jones was a door-to-door monkey salesman. Ecto 21:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, such ready made sources really help to improve the article. Many thanks again. (I had read that Jones sold monkeys but to collect references and links etc takes time) Andries 21:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm new here. I don't know how to make a cite. Could you please point me in the direction of a manual? Or maybe you could do it, if it's not too much effort. I suggest the above San Francisco Chronicle link. Thank you.Ecto 05:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Zoe, removing contents that are not yet referenced in the article itself, but abundantly referenced in the talk pages does not strike me as constructive. I willl re-insert it incl. the reference. Andries 09:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The assertion without a cite was repeatedly inserted despite requests to cite evidence.  User:Zoe|(talk) 19:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The assertion was removed despite the immediate availability of evidence to cite. Going through the effort of removing it when there was a citation ready-made on the talk page was a waste of time, regardless of your request. No worries. Ecto 23:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monkey Salesman 

message: According to the reviews(I don't have the stomach to listen to it) on this audio tape which was recording upto and including the start of the mass suicide Jones claims to have been the one who shot Leo Ryan. 
http://www.archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16
: I believe the quote in question was something like "Are you going to separate yourselves from whoever shot the senator? I won't--I don't know who shot him, but as far as I'm concerned, I shot him." Meaning that Jones, as well as everyone else at Jonestown, was equally responsible for the senator's death, and they all had to face the consequences. 24.151.79.108 06:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audio tape 

message: I removed the two LGBT categories. In part, it is because the article provides insufficient information to imply that Jim Jones was actually homosexual or bisexual.  I see no reference to him identifying as homo-/bisexual (in fact he said he was the only true heterosexual).  I also see no evidence saying that his same-sex acts were frequent enough to merit him being labelled otherwise.  Having sex with a man once does not necessarily make you bisexual, as odd as that may sound to some.  I'm not saying he wasn't, but in order for the cat to make sense there needs to be more information given or everyone who was ever curious will suddenly appear in the cats. - BalthCat 04:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Having sex with a man once does not necessarily make you bisexual" that's a POV. Devilmaycares 23:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As is saying it does. The wiktionary definition is "being sexually attracted to persons of the same sex", and speaks nothing of actions.  Actions may imply but do not certify bisexuality.  So, in the absense of self-identification and evidence it isn't an isolated incident... unless there's a source that has analysed his actions and defined him as bisexual or repressed homosexual, I'm thinking it's inappropriate to add the cats. - BalthCat 00:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT categories 

message: *As anybody who has read the first sentence of this article, as I found it today before my edit, can tell you, the first sentence of this article states that the Peoples Temple is/was a cult. Now, as anybody who has read the Wikipedia article on cult can tell you, that aricle states that "In common usage, "cult" has a negative connotation, and is generally applied to a group by its opponents, for a variety of reasons."
:Is Wikipedia the "oppenent" of the Peoples Temple? I would surely hope not. I emplore someone who feels brave enough to suffer the slings and arrows of a revert war to delete this the word "cult" from the firs sentence of the article, unless it can be proven that it belongs. Zombiebaron 22:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the word cult to group (which is used elsewhere in the article consistently) and linked the first sentence with the second.  I also removed the Neutrality tag.  Izaakb 19:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I would call a group which is responsible for the death of 900 odd people including ca. 300 children a cult rather than a church.  But that's just me. Maikel (talk) 23:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality of the word "cult" 

message: The article is not particularly clear. Did he commit suicide? Was he killed by someone else? Was it never clear how the gunshot wound was inflicted? Nil Einne 17:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  His death 

message: Its a widely held belief that persons too young to tell right from wrong cannot be responsible for life or death decisions, and based on that, the statement "909 inhabitants of Jonestown, 276 of them children, committed mass suicide" might be somewhat contradictory:  can it really be suicide if an individual is unaware (such as a child would be unaware) that drinking something made to taste like a kid's drink could kill them or even what death is?  Isn't suicide the intentional taking of one's own life?
--
It is a good point philosophically, but aside from the legal discussion, if you put a gun you think is unloaded to your head and pull the trigger -- and it fires and you die -- you may not have had the intention to kill yourself (proximate cause) but you DID in fact kill yourself (actual cause).  "Suicide" is both a legal and a non-legal term, each having a different definition.  I think the use of "suicide" with regard to the children is appropriate even if they were unaware they were drinking poison or could legally choose to die.Izaakb 20:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suicide and Children 

message: To my knowledge Jim Jones abused meth and other hard stimulants, not marijuana and LSD. You can't really "abuse" marijuana and LSD in the same way other drugs are abused. No other person has every become this "wacko" from psychedelic use, at least not in the way Jim Jones went crazy. Meth is more known to make people angry and rant in the way he often did (much like Hitler and his amphetamine abuse). Please cite evidence for what has been claimed. Zachorious 03:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "His drug abuse (including various LSD and marijuana experimentations)..."
taken from the Jim_Jones#Jonestown_and_mass_murder-suicide section, is both judgmental and self contradictory. (Please excuse my poor Wikipedia quoting skills.) It is selfcontradictory because, by the time experimentation becomes abuse, it has ceased to be experimentation. It is subtly judgmental because it implies that any entheogen use is abuse, and abuse itself is a loaded word. To me, being so close to a tally of the dead (including the a separate tally of the dead children), it seems to shift the blame for Jones' character flaws onto the drugs. Coming from a land with a strong tradition of entheogen use for ritual, religious and medicinal purposes, this is quite unacceptable to me.
I would like two changes. Firstly, I think that the drug use issue merits its own paragraph. Secondly, the word abuse ought to be substituted for addiction (which is fairly impossible with LSD), if such was the case, and if so it needs to be properly documented. I am not contesting his use of these entheogens, but a convincing case is only made for pentobarbital addiction.Apwith 14:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drug Abuse 

message: We need some information on his political ties in San Francisco (his appointment by Mayor George Moscone as Housing Commissioner, apparently (needs citation?) as a reward for helping elect Moscone). 198.150.76.150 18:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political life 

message: folks, i know all the current histories say it was grape, but the contemporary news sources only identified it as being purple.  The only reliable academic source I found lists the actual flavor as Cherry which may in fact be purple in color, I dont know.  I won't change it from grape back to Cherrys until we can discuss this, but please, don't just assume you know it's grape becuase that's what you recall. Remember, all the sources that tell you it's grape also tell yuou it was Kool Aids which is also wrong.  it was Flavor Aids.  - LiPollis 13:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there is no consensus from sources, let's just leave it with Grape.  I'll see if I can do a survey of all the reliable academic sources and see what tallies up the most.  there are also survivors who run a page on Jonestwon and I may be able to ask one of them.LiPollis 04:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The flavor of the drink mix 

message: The People's Temple article states that the reason for Jim Jones moving to Guyana was because of claims of abuse and fears of the outside world trying to destroy the group. This article states it was for Tax Evasion. Which is correct?
--------------------
Leo Ryan brought a laundry list of complaints with him to Guyana, which came from various government agencies and private individuals.  In other words both are correct and there's more.
--Robert Helms
--------------------- 
 
i also read that Jones so "holy" with his psychic powers that many believed he had, from his knowledge of particular followers private information. They believed he could see into the future and he claimed that a major nuclear war was immenant, based on Jones' increasing insanity, researchers believe he actually believed this was going to happen
The number of deaths is stated to be 914, whereas in the Jonestown and Peoples Temple articles is 913 (or 911). Which number is correct?
-----------
The article on the People's Temple states that the poison's flavour was grape, while this article states the flavour as cherry. Sorry for remarking on such a trivial point. Apwith 10:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent with article [[People's Temple]] 

message: I'm surprized that there's absolutely nothing on conspiracy theories regarding this whole affair, given that the US government still refuses to hand over some of the relevant documents? Arahmim1 22:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there are at least four different and substantial conspiracvy theories about Jonestown.  Of those, 3 link up with other world/govt conspiracy theories.  I've managed to find a couple of good academic sources on them and I do plan to put in a brief section on it.  I don't want to go hog wild though.  The theories are elaborate and since they tie back to others, I think just a little bit about what they are with wikilinks to related topics should be sifficient.  Of course, i'll cite my sources.  I found a great site with lots of survivor narratives and it has good info about the tragedy itself that I'd like to include in the main article.  JIm and Marcheline's biological son Stephan survived becuase he was away from Jonestown playing basketball.  His narratives are heartbreaking but insightful. LiPollis 20:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just because the gov doesn't "hand over" documents doesn't imply a conspiracy.  Seems kind of silly to me, why would there be a conspiracy anyhow?  He left the country and wanted to be left alone... US Gov doesn't "hand over" documents anyhow, have you made a FOIA request? I've heard of no such thing, and there  is no record of a FOIA denial regarding Jim Jones or Jonestown in the FBI's records.IzaakB(my Talk)contribs 14:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy theories 

message: In November 1978, U.S. Congressman Leo Ryan led a fact-finding mission to the Jonestown settlement in Guyana after allegations by relatives in the U.S. of human rights abuses. Ryan's delegation arrived in Jonestown on November 29 and spent three days interviewing residents. They left hurriedly on the morning of Saturday November 18 after an attempt was made on Ryan's life.
I am curious how Congressman Ryan visited Jonestown November 29, 1978 and interviewed residents and then left on November 18, 1978. Not only is November 29 later than the date of the mass suicide, it is also later than the date he supposedly arrived there.
If someone with knowledge about the incident could correct these dates that would be appreciated. Tha*Lunat!k 21:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date inconsistency... 

message: I've seen a photograph of Jim Jones's body as it lay when he was found dead. From the position of his body it doesn't look like he shot himself and instead shot by someone else. This is also what Jones's biological son thinks happened. Also, he's not sitting on a chair, he's lying on the floor with two other bodies around him. There also isn't a gun on his left hand (the one closest to his head) that I can see, though it's impossible to know if someone picked it up before the picture was taken. I don't want to dabble in original research but how do others feel about this? - 75.38.27.131 19:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jones's death 

message: We are seeing vandalism every day or two on this article.  I don't know how to get a page protected.  It would be helpful if another more experienced editor would get this page semi-protected against new users and accounts under 4 days old.  ThanksLiPollis 04:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Contact a adminses. 205.240.144.220 06:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs to be semi-protected 

message: That shit was KOOL AID. I heard this on the NEWS. 205.240.144.220 06:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to disagree but it was not Kool Aid.  Follow the reference links I just added and you will see thhat it was Flavor Aid.  Remember, there were survivors there and they know what supplies were on hand.  Sorry the inline cites weren't there before, they ae in other articles about this topic.  The Univeristy of Virgina Article is a particualry good overview of the whole storyLiPollis 14:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kool Aid 

message: Find on his two shows that he refers to liberals AS "KOOL AID" drinkers. That refers to what THIS guy has done. 205.240.144.220 01:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And that makes Bill O'Reilly once again, wrong.  The survivors and the rescue workers confirmed that it was NOT Koolaid.  it was a similar drink called Flavor Aid.  It is true that the term "Koolaid drinkers" is now used to describe anyone who follows instruction s without questioning them but this may be a case of false etymology.  It's a mix up of this incident at Jonestown and The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Tests by Ken Kesey's Band of Merry Pranksters that may be the real source of the Koolaid references.  it's an interesting phenomenon though!LiPollis 12:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bill O' Reilly 

message: This article exhibits some of the worst writing I've ever seen on Wikipedia.  It's written with simplistic and often incorrect sentence structure, poor grammer, and a slightly hyperbolic tone.  Someone needs to do a major revision, and get the facts straigh while you're at it.  The PBS documentary I just watched said that 908 people died there, by the way.
:We often have probelms with people vandalizing this article with incorrect info, homophobic nonsense and scatalogical references.  I have been unsuccessful in my requests to get the page semi-protected so for the time being - every junior high kid with a warped sense of humor can anonymously vandalize this article.  If you see something wrong BE BOLD and fix it!  You'll be helpings us all.LiPollis 07:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Like a high school term paper 

message: Has anyone thought of adding a "References in Popular Culture" section?   Off the top of my head, I can think of the famous phrase "Drink the kool-aid", the band The Brian Jonestown Massacre, and their song, "The Ballad of Jim Jones.
I'd be very surprised if there weren't many more. Night1stalker 17:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: sometimes ppl add them and they get deleted because it is not considered relevant to the topic.  it's hit or miss.  if you can do it in an 'encyclopaedic' manner, then i guess it will fly  Izaakb 18:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What would make it more or less relevant or encyclopedic then similar sections in countless other articles on wikipedia? Night1stalker 07:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, it depends on the nature of the pop references. A common phrase like "drink the kool-aid" that derives its meaning directly from the events, that sort genuine impact on culture is very relevant, I think. On the other hand, that one thing alone isn't enough for a  new section; it should be integrated. Well, unless you can flesh out description of the impact and use of that phrase to a full paragraph or two, in which case I think the phrase would deserve a section all unto itself. But, a half-dozen links to episodes of Simpsons and South Park is just pointless, imo. Besides which a list of song titles and show quotes for "drink the kool-aid" would be in the wrong article, this article is about Jim Jones. Eaglizard 21:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Culture references? 

message: Someone should verify this but I have heard Jim Jones is an IU Grad from the Kelly School of Business.
Age at which he memorized the New Testament has been vandalized. Kohl Gill 02:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education 

message: I have reverted this page back to include the comments on the arrest and alledged homosexuality. My understanding is that the arrest took place in a movie theatre although a later edit has changed this to a park (I will have to check this further). The comment about being the "one true hetereosexual" is, I believe, true (although I did not make this edit). 
Adding confirmation to the "one true heterosexual" comment, as reference per documentary. --WilliamACopeland 02:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homosexuality 

message: The article is too short on his early life. Maikel (talk) 23:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added significantly more material on the formation of the Temple decades before the mass suicide (1951-1975).  Regarding Jones childhood, there is quite a bit from his mother Lynetta on audio tape, but it is frankly incredibly boring to listen to, even for the most devoted of Jonestown researchers. Such as B.S. stories of animals following Jones around, his childhood pretend church services and like stories.  About the most interesting thing is that his mother was a labor activist and that was probably what helped form Jones' worldview, and eventually, the Temple's worldview, but that's speculation.Mosedschurte (talk) 09:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Where and in what way was his mother a labor activist? I'm from the Richmond area and I find this curious. Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I took a look in Reiterman's Raven just now, and it just said that she worked in a cannery and then other "factory" jobs, "unions eventually became her cause and she did some organizing" and was considered a "troublemaker" by other workers and management.  There is more on some of the audiotapes, and I remember seeing some manuscript by her, but (hate to sound mean) she's honestly one of the most boring speakers I've ever heard.  A joke like this sounds horrible on a serious subject, but my first thought 15 minutes into listening to her was "now I know why Jim was suicidal." Mosedschurte (talk) 09:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. Well, I don't know where a cannery would have been around here, but that doesn't mean that particular job was in this area. There was a fairly contentious union issue at the Perfect Circle Corporation in 1955, which involved the acceptance/refusal to unionize the plant by the UAW, and the use of scabs. It got the notice of the Wall Street Journal and Time magazine, which is fairly significant for a small manufacturer in Indiana. Before that time, labor relations and unions weren't much heard of around here. Just curious about it, thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 11:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beginnings 

message: I eliminated this because it's a common myth about the PT.  In fact, it was so false (they were actually atheists) that Jones used people claiming Jones declared himself a messiah to "prove", in speeches to the Temple members, that those making those accusations were "liars" about everything.  For example, Annie Moore even stated her anger at these false claims that they looked at Jim as a God (they didn't) in her suicide note.   Part of the confusion here was caused by Jones' early 70s healing services to try to draw people into the Temple to convert them later to socialism.  But he didn't even declare himself the messiah there, and instead, said he believed (parroting New Age theory) that an "energy" in the human body lived after death that could be reincarnated and that he was reincarnated, claiming he believed to be a re-incarnation of Lenin (mostly), and also others like Christ and Mao.   But he made clear he wasn't actually them, and said people were getting "carried away with" the old reincarnation words during speeches in Jonestown. Mosedschurte (talk) 06:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category: Self-declared Messiahs 

message: I'm actually not sure that Jim Jones should be considered an actual "Communist ruler" (although he certainly acted like one). I mean he took his people to the middle of nowhere in Guyana, and set up the community on the ideals of Communism, it's not really like Jonestown was a mini-nation or at the very least, an an illegal sovereign nation.Uglyguy2006 (talk) 08:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree they weren't a completely independent state (though Jones believed them to be), but ruler doesn't just mean the head of an independent state.  They were a sovereign territory in Guyana (they also didn't have to comply with many Guyanese dictates under a special Guyanese act) and Jones was undoubtedly the ruler.  Actually, the Temple referred to him as the "D of the P", "Dictator of the Proletariat", but I didn't think that was worth including in the article. Mosedschurte (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category: Communist rulers 

message: It seems SDSU changed it's internal link system so it doesn't show a new address for its different pages.  It *all* falls under http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/ and you can't get a separate page listed for the different areas.  This is going to create a referencing problem. --MartinezMD (talk) 16:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  SDSU references 

message: This article randomly refers to Jones and his wife as "Caucasian", mentioning nowhere else that either is of Armenian/Azerbaijani/etc heritage. Perhaps this was written by some American under the erroneous assumption a few of them seem to have that "Caucasian" somehow means "white"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.59.92 (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also added a note in the Family section explaining Jones' Cherokee claim through Lynetta and the contrary claim by Lynetta's cousin.Mosedschurte (talk) 06:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caucasian? 

message: The Temple really wasn't Buddhist.Mosedschurte (talk) 06:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Buddhism? 

message: Over the last few months, I've added a lot of sources and material to several articles that lacked sourcing, stated incorrect facts (and conspiracy theories) and skipped over large sections of the most notable history.  
As it stands now, the current articles most heavily related to the Peoples Temple and surrounding events:
*Jim Jones - major focus - the personal life of Jim Jones, the Jones family and Jones' leadership of the Peoples Temple.  Summary only for other material. This article needs major expansion on Jones' early life and I am going to start working on that.
*Peoples Temple- major focus - the creation, organization, operation of the Peoples Temple, as well as life therein.  Summary only for other material.  This article needs major expansion on 1955-1975, and I am going to start working on that.
*Timothy Stoen - major focus - the life of Timothy Stoen, with a description of the key John custody battle & Concerned Relatives.  Summary only for other material. 
*Peoples Temple in San Francisco - major focus - The Temple's move to urban San Francisco, as directed by Jones in 1975 for a variety of reasons and the changes that occurred, the political support and election material (old Political alliances article partially merged), the Temple's activities at the Housing Authority, major San Francisco defections that significantly effected its history, it's National of Islam/ Symbianese Liberation Army issues, the various conspiracy theories it saw there (Blackwell Wright, Dennis Banks/Conn and Stennis), the increasing urban media scrutiny that eventually caused the exodus, what happened to Geary Boulevard facility and members post-exodus, what happened at that facility after Jonestown, etc.
*Jonestown - major focus- the creation, activities at and tragedy at Jonestown. Summary only for other material..  Note: I'm considering creating a specific "Tragedy at Jonestown"(see below) article that will go into more detail about that (Nov. 15-18), and then expanding Jonestown to include more of the 1974-October 1978 material, because there is a lot that happened there.
New articles coming:
*Either Tragedy at Jonestown or Jonestown before the tragedy (one of these two only) - as discussed above, the "Tragedy at Jonestown" (if that's chosen) would focus on the large number of events that occurred between November 15 and November 18.  Lots of events occurred in both Georgetown and Jonestown that are not at all in the article or covered now in only a very summary matter.  More importantly, this would allow the expansion of the Jonestown article to include all of the events that occurred there between 1974-Nov. 14 1978 (with the obvious emphasis on Sept. 1977-Nov.1978).  Possible Alternative -Jonestown before the tragedy - this would instead focus upon the 1974-Nov. 14 1978 events, and they would be reduced in the Jonestown article to just a summary.  The Jonestown article would remain the main article addressing the events of November 15-November 18.
*Concerned Relatives (Peoples Temple) - this would focus upon the group of Concerned Relatives (Katsaris, Mills', Stoens, etc.), the many lawsuits brought against the Temple (and the Temple's defense with Garry, Lane, etc.), with additional coverage of individual efforts to oppose the Temple by relatives and former members (Gang of 8, Sandy Rozynko, etc.) before the Concerned Relatives began to come together in Sept. 1977.  It would probably also touch upon the odd Joe Mazor incidents.
*Michael Prokes - Prokes life, from CBS reporter to Jones right hand man in politics, public relations and administration, relationships (with Jones himself, Carolyn Layton, etc.), eventual bagman for over $7 million in funds to the Soviet embassy on the day of the tragedy and his eventual suicide at a press conference he called in Modesto in 1979 reading a statement siding with Jones and the Temple.Mosedschurte (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peoples Temple related articles 

message: This article is one that has been selected to be included in the Wikipedia 0.7 disk release. That is based on importance scores from WikiProjects, number of page visits and the quality of article assigned by the relevant WikiProjects. It might be advisable to delay any major overhauls until after the October 20 deadline. It's a good thing to have been included! Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  I might give a shot at creating Peoples Temple in San Francisco article (lots occurred there), with some merged material from the Political alliances and PT articles in the meantime, which shouldn't really effect this article as it stands because it has very little on the topic right now.   It's an area widely addressed in the literature that is largely skipped over in the current articles.  It would likely include a "see" or "main" link to that article. in a section.Mosedschurte (talk) 04:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Also, as an FYI, a lot more eyes are going to hit this page over the next two months.  The thirtieth anniversary of Jonestown is approaching, and there will likely be significant media fanfare.Mosedschurte (talk) 04:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia 0.7 release 

message: I hate to sound like one of those people who insist on putting "Hitler was evil" on said article's lead, but this article doesn't really say a lot on how People's Temple progressed into an abusive cult. I mean, I read a book which dedicated a whole chapter to it, and really it was the reason that the whole tragedy eventually took place. --Lenin and McCarthy  |  (Complain here) 16:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it doesn't, but that is because it is covered in depth in the corresponding articles Peoples Temple and Jonestown, and is essentially summarized for this page. Both of those articles are linked in this article with "Main article: Peoples Temple" and "Main article: Jonestown". Much more depth would have made it very redundant. Wildhartlivie (talk) 16:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I added much more to the Peoples Temple article recently.  This article focuses more upon the life of Jones personally.Mosedschurte (talk) 19:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cult 

message: Someone needs to do further research on his education... I am a Butler University grad and it has been my understanding that he NEVER received a degree from there. This is coming from professors who taught there during the time he would have attended. I'm not 100% sure on this and don't have time to do the research myself right now, but just putting it out there for someone to confirm. Thanks! 69.5.35.146 (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, here's the thing. If you'll check the reference, this information comes from a published journal article ("Mass Suicide: Historical and psychodynamic considerations." Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior. 32(1):91-100, 2002. Mancinelli, I. et al.) and my experience has been that such research papers are fairly solidly researched and fact checked before publication. Or at least that's true of the Journal of Sociology which was edited at Ball State when I was a grad research assistant there. Since Jones first attended in 1951 and took 10 years to complete the requirements, perhaps they were simply not aware of him. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Butler Education 

message: Instead he had people working in the background killing for him. Why isn't this mentioned? It was discussed on an episode of Most Evil by a well known psychologist. YVNP (talk) 02:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The details of what happened at Jonestown are in the Jonestown article, which is linked several times in this article.Mosedschurte (talk) 04:01, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jim Jones did make 900 people kill themselves 

message: Posting in case it is an issue: An IP editor said in an edit summary: "Note the autopsy says brain levels of Pentobarbital might not have been fatal." However, the autopsy also says "The tissue levels of pentobarbital are within the toxic range, and in some cases of overdose have been sufficient to cause death. The liver and kidney pentobarbital levels are within the generally accepted lethal range." This supports the article statement. Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pentobarbital levels 

message: Someone added this to the "Bibliography".  It has serious WP:Reliable sources and WP:Fringe issues -- so much so that it might be used as the definitive example of such issues.
The book is a culmination of the website writings of Laurie Efrein Kahalas, a former Peoples Temple member who never went to Jonestown and began a website in 1988 espousing various fringe theories (to put it mildly), mostly comporting with the rants of former leader Jim Jones, such as that the CIA was behind numerous conspiracies (with secret agent Tim Stoen, of course), including the murder of the citizens of Jonestown, along with the Green Berets.  SDSU basically asked permission to preserve her old web pages as the writings of a former member who was still sort of a true believer. Interesting as a subject of study for them, but not as a source on Wikipedia given the reliability and fringe requirements of this encyclopedic site.Mosedschurte (talk) 20:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  As a Heads Up, ''Snake Dance'' is About As Unreliable/Fringe Theory As A Source Can Get 

message: Most of the recent history for this article concerns repeated vandalism by unregistered IPs, with registered (and unregistered) editors having to revert the vandals.  
The Wikipedia:Rough guide to semi-protection states that "on average 5% of edits to a page are vandalism. So, 5% is the level of vandalism to be expected, and semi-protection should not be applied in this case. More than usual levels of vandalism occur when anything over 5% of edits constitute vandalism."
We're WAY over that.  I would guess in the 60-70% range (not including reverts), though most of the time its not marked as vandalism, even when it regularly includes such scholarly edits as "james nipp was a cock sucking bitch with a virgina".
How do we go about getting the page semi-protected so that only registered users can edit, as has been done with many other pages, such as World War II?  Is it a request on ANI?Mosedschurte (talk) 02:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-Protection for this Page? 

message: The map in this article (as well as in the Wiki article on the Peoples Temple) entitled:  Some of the Peoples Temple's locations in California, lists Fresno and Bakersfield as two of these locations.
I have lived in this part of California all my life and have never heard of the Peoples Temple being located in these cities.  Nor can I find any collaborative evidence for this elsewhere on the web.  
I would like to learn what evidence this is based upon.
I suspect the listing of these two cities is some sort of  error.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by PNeel56 (talk • contribs) 16:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Map showing locations of Peoples Temples in error? 

message: Added  to EL sect. Cirt (talk) 14:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: The link to Jim Jones on the wikipage for 'Cam'ron' is supposed to go to the hip hop artist Jim Jones and not this guy.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.239.159 (talk) 19:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Um.. fix it. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:37, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

text: In fact, you're wrong. See Jim Jones#California Eden at the beginning of the 4th paragraph where it is reliably sourced that Jones stated he was an atheist. Also see Jim Jones#Other issues where his activities with men is discussed and reliably sourced. He perhaps wasn't gay but he was at least bisexual. Wildhartlivie (talk) 07:45, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cam'ron link 

message: This article is grossly biased. It tries to claim that Jones's group was not a religious cult and does not even mention that Jones was an ordained minister of the Disciples of Christ. Instead, someone with a political agenda is using it to smear Democrats and liberals through guilt by association. 
Source:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_jones.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahabarbara (talk • contribs) 11:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Think that all you want. This article is well referenced and whether or not Jones went through ordination does not take away from the fact that he guided his little group into Communism and completely away from religious based activities. That those political persons used their association with the group in California does not it biased, except on their part. This is, after all, a group that committed mass suicide and murder. All of this is covered. It was a perversion of religious AND political beliefs. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:02, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

text: And I think lowly readers come in with a biased view, "this was a church, it wasn't political" or "he was a preacher, not a Communist" or "he was political, it wasn't a church". This article has dozens of authors and no one person wrote it, so the impressions from the sources touched everyone. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There has always been mob rule on Wikipedia. Varied and inconsistent application of rules and policies. It may be comforting to think otherwise, but it's true. There have been absolutely ridiculous pages like: "List of groups referred to as cults" that hung on for years despite their abject "bogosity".  Although in truth, I'm not sure how or if it could be better.  75.91.102.14 (talk) 03:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Non-sequitur. Comdemning the project doesn't address why you think this article is slanted. Are you sure you're not just taking this opportunity to slam the project as a whole? Wildhartlivie (talk) 16:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I think this article is slanted. 

message: I'm 26yrs and somuch interested in researching about human madness.  This was one of the highest oder. These articles posted on this web say that there is no video about the suiside but i have seen a full video of right from 14th up to 18th the day of the disaster.
This video was shown on 20th/3/2010 on Discovery Channel(seoul Korea) at around 23:00-1:30am. You guys need to see that video.
Its unbelievable, it's shocking, there was no mercy it was total insanity  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.88.65.199 (talk) 16:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no video of what happened that night, only recreated incidents. Having said that, there are many documentaries out there. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:46, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is a full video about this disaster 

message: One interesting aspect which should be mentioned a bit more is that Jones was fervently anti-racist. This is perhaps one of his better features and why many people flocked to him.
He adopted a black son, and two East Asian daughters, and the Temple was also racially mixed.--MacRusgail (talk) 09:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jones' anti-racism 

message: The comments about Jim Jones Jr. may be true but are not verifiable and seem to point to a non-neutral point of view.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.228.52.10 (talk) 02:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the POV tag.  No discussion by the person other than general statement of why they feel the section isn't neutral. Even after being asked.  ~~ GB fan ~~ 05:35, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute neutrality of first section 

message: That is not the former home of the People's Temple on Delaware in Indianapolis. That building is located at 1201 N. Delaware; the People's Temple was located at 975 N. Delaware. I am removing the photo. 24.23.244.44 (talk) 02:16, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of the Jehovah's Witness Assembly Hall 

message: The introduction states that he killed 913 people, whereas the source quoted for that section says over 900, and the body says 909.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.239.124.155 (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  913 people killed 

message: Is it ok that this article is in both of these categories?
American atheists & LGBT Christians
-Quasipalm (talk) 18:57, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there seem to be no objections, I'm going to remove both until it can be sorted out.  --Quasipalm (talk) 09:03, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  conflicting categories 

message: My edit was removed, re-adding.  Multiple sources state that William Branham was the headlining act that brought the people to Jones' meeting at the Cadle Tabernacle, and a large advertisement was printed in the newspaper.  
Removal of that section will place this page in violation based on bias, do not remove again.
Swiftredvette (talk) 01:20, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cadle Tabernacle, Indiana 

message: I'm not sure if the FBI transcript (cit. #2) is enought to say that Jones was really atheistic. Jones was still head of the cult and his claims were made in order to make a deal. In one sentece, He spoke about the Peoples Temple theology, in second about him being agnostic and in another that he is atheist. He speaks about how he don’t believe in any loving God, but also about "some emphasis on the terms of paranormal". This doesn't look like a typical atheistic approach. Mrkv09 (talk) 13:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also the New York Times citation (38) in the California Eden section of the article (though I have been unable to find this article on the NYT website), and this  and this , and the fact that Marxism is often violently opposed to religions other than Marxism.  If different sources claim his religion to be Christianity or atheism, both can be included in the article, but any caims that he was Christian probably should take into account his later claim that he had only infiltrated the Christian Church to promote Marxism (see first link).  ("Cult Leader" is probably a more accurate term, if a reliable source can found that describes his religion as "cult leader".)--Wikimedes (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supposed atheism 

message: I heard the other day that one area of interest in looking back at Jim Jones & the People's Temple is that the media never reported him as "black".  However, even this Wikipedia article doesn't describe this phenomena.  On this wiki article there's a mixed message in this article as to Jim Jone's racial ethnicity, for example, if his mother is from Aruba & his father is from Puerto Rico, why does this article go on to state, "Two years later, in 1961, the Joneses became the first white couple in Indiana to adopt a black child, James Warren Jones, Jr.[29]".  I believe footnote 29 should NOT be removed, as it is one example of how the media portrayed Jim Jones as white.  One interesting article to cite regarding Jim Jones as black AND white is :  
“Jim Jones and His Peoples Temple: Dual Racial Identities, Dual Results” by Brooke Agee
available here:  http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/JonestownReport/Volume10/Agee.htm
(one quote worthy of mention is this:  While presenting himself as black, Jones also sought to give his congregation an all-black identity.  He claimed that his parishioners were African American: "you look white, but honey, you're a nigger like Father Jim."[Jim Jones, Los Angeles sermon, transcript, 1974, Q 612.]   
and:
 
"Reverend J. Alfred Smith later explained how Jones had both white authority, "and the rhythm and the cadence of the preaching style of black."[J. Alfred Smith, "Breaking the Silence:  Reflections of a Black Pastor," in Peoples Temple and Black Religion, 152.] "
I think this Wikipedia article should briefly state this racial identity issue, and add citations to the above links.
Thank you,
63.139.128.82 (talk) 12:33, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial Identity 

message: After discussing how many people were victims of cyanide poisoning, I see there's a discrepency of two - specifically denoted in the companion article Jonestown, Guyana.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.150.23 (talk) 06:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deaths in Jonestown 

message: Under the Death in Jonestown section it reads, 
"No video was taken during the mass suicide, though the FBI did recover a 45 minute audio recording of the suicide in progress[91]."
This is incorrect as the video is titled "The End (Enoch28 by ~GOD~)" which can be found on google search. This is only one video posting, of which I am sure there are many other's also.  
Your Welcome
loagun  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.72.137.162 (talk) 05:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jim Jones wiki incorrectly states no video was taken of the mass suicide 

message: The opening section seems to imply that Leo Ryan died in the "mass suicide". According to the Leo Ryan wiki he was murdered by Larry Layton at the Kaituma airstrip.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guy Balzac (talk • contribs) 14:51, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leo Ryan not part of the "mass suicide"? 

message: Traslation and reincarnation was part from creed from Charles Fillmore Unity Church.
Father Divine was a follower from Fillmore and an influence on Jim Jones.200.75.126.45 (talk) 21:31, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jim Jones and Charles Fillmore Unity Church 

message: He says: "But I now see it's the will -- it's the will of Sovereign Being that this happen to us." 
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=29081
I don't think those are the words of an atheist. 
If it's not really clear what was his religious belief, or he wasn't consistent about this matter, maybe this info should be removed of the profile in the right.
188.86.85.197 (talk) 19:24, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jim Jones atheist? 

message: This IP address has added a large number of assertions to the article, many of which appear to be based on the personal experiences of "Kristian Chanin Crawford". Many of these assertions have been inserted before existing references which do not support them, some of which were even published before the dates in the assertions themselves. I've reverted their most recent set of changes, but many still remain. – Smyth\talk 10:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  66.214.180.230 

message: According to Raven: The Untold Story of Rev Jim Jones and his People, he first created the People's Temple and then held the convention to attract members, unlike how it is stated in the article that the People's Temple came out of the convention.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam99 (talk • contribs) 00:53, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The convention at Cadle Tabernacle came after he had already created the People's Temple movement 

message: This article first mentions drug addiction in the section on Jonestown's formation, with no lead-in or other explanation.  Just out of the blue, Jones was a drug addict.  The only other reference to drug addiction comes later, in the section on the mass suicide.
Are there any sources to provide any background, for example, that he began using drugs earlier in his life?  I'm not challenging that he used and abused drugs, just asking if we can make a better mention of this detail, in our article.
Best regards,
theBaron0530
TheBaron0530 (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better documentation about Jones' drug use? 

message: Would "Other matters" be better separated from the section describing Jones' alleged homosexuality?  It doesn't seem that one has to do with the others.
Best regards,
theBaron0530
TheBaron0530 (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Homosexuality and Other Matters" - split these things into separate sections? 

message: Please remove "Jones' drug usage (including LSD and cannabis) was confirmed by his son, Stephan, and Jones' doctor in San Francisco.", as I cannot find this information anywhere, suggesting that it is incorrect.
Terresire (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Contentious unsourced material like that should be removed if no sources can be found. The CN tag was not terribly old, but there's no reason not to remove it for now.  EvergreenFir (talk) Please  23:33, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  It looks like the drug usage statement was added in this edit and sourced to Hearing the Voices of Jonestown by Mary McCormick Maaga. The citation was removed here. clpo13(talk) 00:02, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

text: No comment on how reliable the source is, however. clpo13(talk) 00:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2016 

message: While I agree that the above quote from the article is both true and relevant to Jones' life story, does it really belong under the section 'Homosexuality and other matters'? For that matter, should the section really be called 'Homosexuality and other matters' if the whole section only discusses Jones' homosexual acts with only a single sentence on the mentioned 'other matters'? Even if this part of the page is kept, it really should be rewritten so that there is a clear transition from the previous paragraph. Bonifate (talk) 00:37, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Father Divine and homosexuality 

message: The final section refers to a "haunting" instrumental piece. I feel this is subjective and, though a minor edit, the word 'haunting' needs to be removed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yarabaragaramara (talk • contribs) 04:47, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The answer is simple: Jonestown had both Kool-Aid and Flavor Aid in stock. Any of the books will tell you that Flavor Aid was used (even Guyana Massacre, published a mere month after the mass murder-suicides, states on the back cover that a "potion of Flavour-aide and cyanide" was used.) --Ismail (talk) 09:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV/wording 

message: I'm too busy to edit the article myself (plus if I edited it I'd want to edit huge swathes of it, not just bits and pieces) but:
1. Jones affiliating Peoples Temple to the Disciples of Christ is in virtually every book about him. He was ordained in 1964. Here's an article on the subject: https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=13778
2. Jones was never a member of the Communist Party USA. In fact, when reminiscing about his youth, he claimed he applied to join the party in the 50s but they said he'd do better as a sympathetic non-member. The authors of The Cult That Died note how in Mendocino County Jones told local Republicans that he was a registered Republican, and when he established himself in San Francisco he changed his party registration to Democratic. So he was, legally speaking, a Democrat from about 1975 onward even though ideologically he was neither a liberal nor a conservative. --Ismail (talk) 19:19, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There's certainly no evidence he belonged to a socialist or communist party (since... he didn't), but he absolutely referred to himself as a socialist and/or communist. In fact he claimed that while he didn't join the Communist Party USA, "I entered Indiana University, and immediately became an activist. Party organizer. Didn’t belong to the Party but I organized people to join the Party." Peoples Temple and Jonestown also bore the stamp of Jones' idiosyncratic take on Marxism. Needless to say there's no shortage of reliable sources on this subject. So while treating him as ideologically equivalent to William Z. Foster or Eugene Debs would be folly, calling him a socialist or communist can be justified. --Ismail (talk) 11:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

text: Obviously Jones' "socialism" was tailored to fit his desire to be a cult leader (as was the Temple's theology), but he did seem personally appalled by racism and explicitly called himself a Marxist. He was certainly opportunistic and a mass murderer, but simply writing him off as a Hoosier Hitler obscures more than it explains. Jones built up ties with the CPUSA, Black Panthers, American Indian Movement and other leftist groups. In Guyana he had his aides reach out to the Soviet, Chinese, North Korean and Cuban embassies (among others) for publications and videos to help with political education. He was a man of the left, even if his personal blend of leftism was simplistic, self-serving and literally a dead-end. --Ismail (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  On latest edits 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Mr. Muggs. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  AldezD (talk) 12:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mr. Muggs" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: I see this was reverted a few times. I just took a look at the website, and it  doesn't appear to be somebody's blogsite, this is a University and the site has editors and researchers , so it appears to be reliable.  So what was the reason for it's removal ? Necromonger...We keep what we kill 13:15, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The website is in a rather odd position in terms of Wikipedia's reliable source guidelines. The owners of the site (Rebecca Moore and Fielding McGehee) are widely recognized as authorities of Peoples Temple and Jonestown. However, the actual content outside of FAQs and other parts written by Moore and McGehee varies wildly. For example, you can find articles on the site written Jeff Guinn (author of The Road to Jonestown, a highly-regarded book published by Simon & Schuster), but you can also find articles on the site claiming Jonestown was set up by the CIA to carry out MKULTRA experiments. Moore and McGehee don't endorse such conspiracy theories, but they do include them in the name of covering different points of view. So you can't just look at the site URL, you have to look at whether the author of the particular page being cited ("The Downfall of Jim Jones" by Larry Lee Litke) qualifies as a reliable source or not. I'm not involved in inserting it into the article or reverting it, but from what I can see it isn't a reliable source. There's no books or widely-cited articles that mention Litke's text. --Ismail (talk) 14:41, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks .  I totally get what you're saying.  While the site is reliable.  Some of the information isn't and as such, we can't accept the information just based on that site's reliability.  I get it! Necromonger...We keep what we kill 16:51, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  I see this was reverted a few times 

message: I have removed this section for several reasons, most significantly because of its inappropriate tone and word choice, and because it is 11,000 words taken almost entirely, in many places verbatim, from a single source: a 1980 article by someone named Larry Litke which portrays David Conn as an unsung hero, indeed, the only hero in the Jonestown story.
The familiarity with which the author keeps referring to everyone by their first name suggests the contributor of Section 2.7 may actually be Litke. They use phrases such as "a mere citizen who had the goods on him" and "evil ecclesiastical empire," which do not appear in the 1980 article cited, but do appear in the April 2019 letter which Litke wrote to the FBI promoting his work: https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/litke-2a.pdf 
David Conn was apparently a real person, whose existence is substantiated in the Jones tapes, so he may merit inclusion somewhere in this article, but not as an 11,000-word hagiography. DongsGalore (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Litke's 1980 article and 2019 letter simply fail to meet reliable source guidelines, so I agree they shouldn't be in the article. As for David Conn, he co-authored The Cult That Died which is a reliable source, but I can't see much reason for mentioning Conn himself in this article, definitely not more than once. --Ismail (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section 2.7 "The Reason Jones fled to Guyana"  

message: "Other incidents occurred, but one could theorize that Jones himself was involved in at least some of them" seems like speculation only, whether it is speculation by the cited source or by the Wikipedia editor. I am removing the sentence while moving the part about other incidents, which doesn't sound speculative, to the previous sentence.
The cited source does seem to have received good reviews.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_(book)Dgndenver (talk) 15:18, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it's speculation, but it's worth noting there are multiple books that detail Jones fabricating incidents against himself and/or his followers. For example, "Jones had a history of staging such attacks. Once, while visiting friends in Indiana, Jones was alone in a room when a rock shattered the window. As the family ran in, he shouted that racists were trying to get him. But they discovered the rock had been thrown from inside the room; the glass lay below in the yard." (Scheeres, A Thousand Lives, pp. 27-28.) --Ismail (talk) 09:33, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "One could theorize" 

message: Hello, I am going through the article and updating to use citation templates throughout the article and doing a little cleanup. Just posting in here case anyone wonders what I am doing. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 14:59, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In reviewing the citation, I am finding quite a few missing key info. Also quite a few primary sources, and some questionable ones. I am going to try and clean some of that up too. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 15:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I finished cleaning up all the formatting and converting the citations over sfn templates. I am thinking about doing a full review of the source material and see if I can improve the sourcing further, and possible expand the article. I would like to reduce the use of primary sources, and try to replace some of the lower quality sources that are currently used in the article. I would also like to try and update the early life section, it is primarily based on a PBS documentary transcript. Additionally, I will try to resolve the citation needed tags currently in the article. I am not sure how many watch this article, but if I get too bold in my editing feel free to interrupt me. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 17:40, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I finished a first full review of the sources, and most the article is well sourced now. I was able to expand quite a bit from Reiterman and get citations where needed. A bit of the article is cited from Wessinger, but no page numbers are given. I am going to try and review that next, and also include citations from Guinn. I don't really like the popular culture section, it's a little bit WP:TRIVIA. I am thinking about reworking that into a broader "Reaction and aftermath" section. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:13, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I finished a review of all the major sources in the article and have copy edited it quite a bit. I have made a request with the copy edit guild to review the article too. I am going to conduct a review of the article myself for Manual of Style standards, and I think after that I may attempt to get the article review at GAN. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 14:31, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation cleanup 

message: I believe the term "mass suicide" is technically not correct. If one has watched various documentations then most did not want to die (hence the "people started to cry") but were pressured/induced/forced to "drink the kool aid". The term murder is correct, in my opinion, but "mass suicide" is in my opinion the wrong title. It would be more prudent to let the survivors define which term they would think fits the most; to me it simply seems wrong to talk about "mass suicide". It's not that unlike from concentration camps and mass-death in gas chambers, and these are also not classified as "mass suicide" (even though I understand the two situations can not easily be compared 1:1, but my gripe is with the expression "mass suicide" - it seems an incorrect term if you know the history of the events.) 2A02:8388:1604:F600:A023:1A46:73DC:AD2 (talk) 21:47, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I likewise prefer the term "mass murder-suicide" to "mass suicide." As one survivor noted, most of those who willingly killed themselves could still be considered murdered since "Jones asserted that the children would be taken from us, that the Guyanese Defense Force was on its way and it was armed and would be shooting, etc. If someone 'voluntarily' takes their life based on the lies of another, is that really suicide?" --Ismail (talk) 19:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I also prefer the term "mass murder-suicide", as it reflects both sides. Some clearly were killed against their will. Others drank the poison voluntarily, to some degree. I think it is a mixture of the two, and the sources out there reflect that reality. "Mass suicide" is the term more prevalently used in the source material I have access to, so it is valid term in the sense that it easily and widely referenceable. But "mass murder-suicide" is more nuanced and reflective of a the broader body of sources. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title "mass-murder-suicide" 

message: Hello, just sharing my intention to continue improving this article to meet the Featured Article Criteria before submitting it for a FAC review. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:06, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Article 

message: Hello, I am proposing to create a new sub article entitled Early life of Jim Jones to moving the first three sections there and create a more concise summary in this article, with a goal of reducing word count in this article to  about 10,000 words. If there are no objections I will go ahead and make the sub article. Cheers! —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:49, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Just thinking out loud: does Jones really warrant such a (separate) article? That's something you typically see with big political figures. But this sort of thing is very subjective.Rja13ww33 (talk) 20:37, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, I was thinking about that too. Jones has an incredible large amount of source material out there. He already has three sub articles to most of his life, but not one for the early life. I am moving some bits to Jonestown and Peoples Temple. I already trimmed back the early life section, we can afd the sub article if we decide we don't want it. I am ok either way honestly. But I think there is alot of good content in the early life section that gives alot of context to how he ended up being so crazy, and that is worth keeping. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:57, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article split: Early life of Jim Jones 

message: Larry the gunman had sex with Jim Jones?https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-04-24-mn-741-story.htmlLmharding (talk) 23:58, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Larry and Jim 

message: Article says at present re: Jonestown mass suicide: "This resulted in the greatest single loss of American civilian life in a deliberate act until September 11, 2001." This is philosophically debatable and conceptually bizarre. Who lost what? Where does "an act" begin and end? Do people have nationality before, during and after the moment of their death? Suggest rewriting or dropping the sentence. Wegesrand (talk) 22:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Aside from whether the sentence should be in the article or rewritten, the meaning seems clear to me. Almost all the inhabitants of Jonestown were American citizens who had only recently migrated to Guyana. They were civilians (e.g. they obviously weren't part of a military unit that got defeated in battle.) Their deaths were not from a plane crash, rock slide, or other accident but were instead purposely carried out on the orders of Jim Jones. --Ismail (talk) 16:41, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

text: I think the point the sources are trying to make is that the event was the single biggest one-day loss of american civilians up until that point. There were bigger one-day losses of life during some of the American Civil War battles, but they were military personnel, not civilian. So, outside of war, this was the biggest one-day loss in American history until September 11. As far as whether it should be in the article or not, several sources make this point. I believe it is good to convey the magnitude comparative to other mass-death events. This may not be the best way though. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTF is "American civilian life"? 

message: Just noticed that some text was repeated in the Early life section of Jim Jones article, possibly from when the early life article was merged. It's the section that talks about his being an unusual child and being obsessed with religion and death. Cheers 2603:6010:9506:EC00:9B4:80C:52C2:A5E1 (talk) 06:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated text on this page