Talk:Nazi punk

message: How are we supposed to cite how the music sounds itself? Providing links to MP3s? That's ridiculous! The same goes for the lyrics. There are already links to the Nazi punk bands listed and one only needs to look at their song titles to see what their songs are about. The citation for the claim that Nazi punk may have started in '77 is fair enough, but the rest are insanely stupid. user:El Chivi
One could simply describe the sound using words. "Loud", "mid-tempo", "4/4 time" could all be good words to start with perhaps? Maybe describe it in comparison to other similar genres.
--Chicagomusicfan (talk) 11:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations...

message: *Who was ridiculous enough to add "Catholics" to the minority groups Nazi punks write songs expressing hatred towards? Most Nazi punk bands I've heard are atheists and tend to either condemn religion in general, or else choose not to comment on it at all. In general, most people who consider themselves "White Power" (Skinheads, Punks, or otherwise) and Christians either condemn all mainstream religions including Protestantism (and only respect their strange racist Christian and pagan groups), or they actually partake in them, including Catholicism.
::National Socialism, as espoused by the NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei commonly known as the NAZI party), is by definition a Christian ideology that has been at odds with with Roman Catholicism since its inception.  Modern WP followers also tend to be rabidly anti-catholic (at least here in the United States), adhering to their twisted version of the Protestant faith.  Cheers. L0b0t 15:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence in the article says Nazi punk bands target certain groups in their song lyrics. Do you have evidence that Nazi punk bands sing songs against Catholics? Spylab 21:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholics?!

message: While browsing the catalogs for some internet NS/WP stores, I stumbled on a not-too-well-known Nazi punk band. The sites list them as "punk-core", more details can be found:
I want to add this band to the list, but wanted to know first if it qualifies.
*Actually INFANTRY is a hatecore band featuring Skinhead and Metalhead band members. Their latest album might be considered "punk-core" in style, but the members certainly aren't punks and therefore not a Nazi punk band.
*I don't even listen to Nazi Punk, or anything racist for that matter, but if the music was considered "punk-core", wouldn't they still fall under the Nazi-punk definition? The music should have something to do with the classification. Even if the members aren't punk, they still play a form of punk, so the music is by definition very much punk. Hardcore is a form of punk, so if hatecore is a form of hardcore, wouldn't hatecore be a form or evolution of Nazi-punk? If a band had Nazi-Skinhead members, but played apolitical punk, they wouldn't be considered Nazi-Punk because of the music and it's content. A lot of staunchly Anti-Nazi punks and skins like the first Skrewdriver album, which has nothing to do with Ian Stuart's politics or beliefs. It is entirely apolitical in nature. Skrewdriver wasn't considered racist in their first incarnation because of the subject matter. Wouldn't it be fair given that example to classify a band by what their music sounds like rather than what subculture the band members belong to? The band Face to Face were just a bunch of metalheads who played in a punk band, but their music is agreed to be punk in sound, so they are a punk band. You don't have people calling Avril Lavinge punk (that know what they are talking about, anyways), just because she might be into punk.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.15.146.252 (talk) 04:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nazi punk band: I.N.F.A.N.T.R.Y.

message: I propose we add back the external links section. The person who edited it out has never contributed to any punk or subculture related article and is clearly ignorant on the subject. The links that were provided had a lot to do with the nazi punk scene. The Forward Area link, for example, is a link showing an active nazi punk band online and samples of nazi punk thinking and musical style; The link to the Folk & Faith interview happens to be their most in-depth nazi punk interview there is online, and the Spanish nazi punk web links also go over nazi punk history and ideology and can easily be translated into English online, so the reader can understand the gist of the sites. The links were not "spam" at all, but rather informative websites which can aid people interested in this topic in learning more about it from different perspectives.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.7.251 (talk)  02:13, 11 December 2006
Every other punk wikipedia article has sites linked to the topic, this should be no different. User:BoredAndViolent
Please see WP:EL for all the reasons that the existing links section had to go.  It contained links to non-english sites and fan sites for bands, both of which are contra our established policies and guidelines.  External links are only to be used sparingly, the prefered method is to write the info up yourself and edit it into the article then cite the link as an inline ref in the references section.  Cheers. L0b0t 14:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your first argument would hold water if the article were about that particular band, however, it is not and that one band's position is nongermane to this article.  Ditto for the interview.  If there is material on these websites that you feel needs to be included in this article, then by all means do so.  Write it into the article then use the inline ref tag to link to the website in the references section.  As for sites not in English, they are only to be used if NO English sources can be found, that is certainly not the case here.  Cheers. L0b0t 17:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: Elizabeth Gunn are seriously a pretty intense Nazi Punk band from Canada. Please stop removing their name from the list of bands! (by anonymous editor)
*According to all the hits that come up from Google, Elizabeth Gunn is an author. Do not add that name again without reliable sources. http://www.elizabethgunn.com Spylab 21:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Elizabeth Gunn

message: The band listed as The Fuck-Ups aren't a nazi punk band. I've spoken with punks from back in the day and they've told me so. There's nothing fascist about their lyrics anyway. Minus the song "White Boy" on their only album, FU 82, there's nothing that could link them with being nazis, and even the song doesn't have any racist message or praise of the white race (I'm willing to type up the lyrics if need be). I'd like to see someone prove otherwise.
*I'm sorry, but The Fuck-Ups were a racist Punk band. Their EP (FU82) only featured a few tracks, one of which "White Boy" was a racist song. It doesn't matter if people try to sugar coat that bands history or not, lyrics like "White boy can't you see you're a minority? White boy shoot and White boy kill" can't be defended. They will remain on the list. 
::That's ironic, since one of my favorite songs is also called "White Boy", but it's by Bikini Kill and has the lyrics "White boy just die". Anyway, if those are the lyrics of that song, I think they should probably be on this list unless there is some reputable source that says otherwise. The Ungovernable Force 04:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Fuck Ups 

message: What on earth were the innocuous British band The Dentists doing in the band list?! They were neither Nazis nor punks. If there has at some point been a Nazi band calling itself The Dentists, then it was most certainly not the band discussed in the Wikipedia article of that name, and the distinction should be made clear.
I only hope that this misinformation has not spread far enough via Wikipedia mirrors to damage the legitimate band's reputation! Perodicticus 21:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine, but this article still should not have included a link pointing to The Dentists' entry on Wikipedia, since that entry concerns a completely unrelated band. (As far as I can tell, the band you're discussing doesn't meet Wikipedia's notability criteria and therefore wouldn't have an entry of their own.) As I said, if any of the bands or musicians in this article share their names with non-Nazi performers, then the distinction between the two should be made very clear. I'm sure I don't have to explain how damaging any confusion could be. Perodicticus 12:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  You'll be including... 

message: the opening paragraph states that Nazi Punk reffers to Punk music that is Nationalist, Racist, Fascist or Nazi. It should only reffer to the last. In any case, all the bands do it for shock value or haven't read 'Mein Kampf'. If they had, they would realise that they create "degenerate" negroid art.
*Other non-Racist Punks call any Racist, Fascist, or Nationalist Punks "Nazi Punks". That's why that sentence states that. You may not agree with that, but you don't represent the entire subculture and you didn't come up with the label. Also, all the bands listed don't do it for "shock value" they honestly believe in racial superiority and the politics of Nazism. The side notes clearly distinguish that the "Nazi Punk" talked about in the article aren't the Punks from the '70s that worse swastikas for shock value attention.
:: People call copmplete disorder Anarchy, that's only colloqually speaking true. With respect to the actual term Nazi, it is different from those other -isms. Besides, they can't be real nazis, as they wouldn't be making rough sounding music that descended from the black man. A real Nazi would be horrified.
*That's a matter of opinion and therefore can't be added on Wikipedia. Also, you can't possibly say that Nationalism, Fascism and Racialism weren't incorperated in National Socialism (Nazism). Those 3 ideologies are basically what makes Nazism so horrible. Look it up bub.
::Besides, as the British TV documentary Swing Under the Swastika (1987) has demonstrated, the Nazis themselves were quite partial to a bit of "Decadent" (i.e., Black) Music, even when played by Jewish musicians in the death camps.
::Nuttyskin 06:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  opening paragraph 

message: I added that a curved swastika is a symbol of nazism, not a swastika itself.
:The Nazi swastika is angular, not curved. There are plenty of curved swastika designs, but the Nazis used one with right angles, as depicted. --FOo 05:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited swastika image info 

message: I'm going to delete the band list section because there are no references proving that the bands are Nazi punks. I will merge a few of the band names into the main article and add a citation request for those bands. Spylab 12:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References needed to prove bands are Nazi punk

message: I don't think that is a correct assessment. At the very start of the punk rock movement actual nazis weren't always around. However, Nazi regelia and imagery was first worn as part of the subculture by the Bromley Contingent, (previously some of the band's had used the imagery for shock value, the New York Dolls at one point or another have dressed as Nazis and Communists for example) but they weren't actually followers of the policital ideology of Nazism. - Deathrocker 17:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Were always around?

message: I know the bands are left wing, but what was the significance and meaning of the songs `White Minority' (Black Flag) and `Guilty of Being White' by Minor Threat??
:I can't speak to "White Minority" by Black Flag, but I know that "Guilty of Being White" was not meant to be an attack on other races. I think it may have been in bad taste, but it wasn't meant to be racist. Ian said in an interview that it had to do with how he was beat up a lot when he was younger by African-Americans because of the fact that he was white and because of the things whites had done (and still do) to non-whites. He was trying to say it is just as screwed up to attack someone for being white as it is to attack someone for being black. He also got pissed when Slayer covered the song and changed the last line of the song to "guilty of being right." Ian is definitely not a Nazi, or even a white supremacist or nationalist or anything like that. They even talk about the song on the Minor Threat page here. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 08:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, here is Guilty of Being White on songmeanings.net and here is White Minority. See the comments for what others have said. It looks like White Minority is supposed to be an attack on racists, but again, it's not very clearly written and it's easy to see it being interpreted as racist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Ungovernable Force (talk • contribs) 08:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that Black Flag's "White Minority" was sung by Ron Reyes (aka Chavo Pederast), a Puerto Rican -- making the ironic intent clear. Aryder779 (talk) 22:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLACK FLAG/Minor Threat 

message: I think the article lacks historical perspective. It appears to imply that punk rock invented this idea. Who drummer Keith Moon was noted to have walked around Jewish neighborhoods wearing Nazi uniforms. David Bowie was reported to give what appeared to be a Nazi salute to a crowd. John Lennon proposed that Hitler appear on the Beatles Sgt. Pepper album cover. The liner notes of Rhino's Nuggets CD box set report that 60's garage band Gonn performed while "hanging a Nazi flag behind them at a church gig." I think the above mentioned facts should be incorporated into the article to give some historical perspectiveSmiloid 21:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nazi flirtations in rock prior to punk

message: As someone who has done quite a bit of research on the Nazi punk phenomena, there is little to no evidence to suggest that Nazi punk music has ever had lyrics referring to their hatred of Asians. However, their hatred towards people engaging in multiracial relationships (what they call "race traitors") and their offspring (multiracial people) has been written about many times. A few Nazi Skinhead bands have written about Asians, but I found no Nazi punk bands who have done so. Also, many Nazi punk bands have written negatively towards non-White Latin Americans, mestizos (whom are multiracial people) & Amerindians. Thus I feel it's more appropriate to include multiracial people under the minority group section than Asians.
The Nazi punk & skinhead movements even has a place amongst some non-White Asians. A quick search on the subject will return bands and pictures of those individuals. According to them, you don't have to be "White" in order to be a National Socialist or racist. Even non-punk and skinhead people have been getting into these politics. See: www.nsjap.jp & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_Association_%28Taiwan%29
* Are you serious in saying "Even non-punk and skinhead people have been getting into these politics. "??!! THE NAZIS CAME LONG BEFORE THE PUNKS!
Also, when Nazi bands sing about "immigrants" that often includes Asians.
The old "paki-bashing" skins who influenced the National Front certainly made a distinction between themselves and Asians. Punk Front bands weren't just talking against Irish immigrants, they were talking about Pakis! Pakis are still considered Asian in most circles.
Just because Asians can be found being racist doesn't mean that other racists are not racist against them!
--Chicagomusicfan (talk) 12:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Asians

message: It should be made clear in the article throughout that it is bonehead related and not the mod/northern soul/reggae skinhead (ie - real skins). Calling these people "skinheads" would be like calling Avril Lavigne hardcore.- The Daddy 09:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bonehead not Skinhead

message: Feel free to discuss the suitability of these promotional links, but do not reinsert them at this time, as I deem them to violate policy. Thanks. El_C 11:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The main problem here is that these links are used as references, and they do not meet standards for reliable sources. I note most of these are blogs, and myspace? Some of these, can possibly stay, provided its in the external links sections, and others if they are from the organization/group itself, and references a claim that they would be suitable to support, i.e. about themselves (provided its properly qualified as so). But as references we have to stick to reliable sources, which these fail. I am going to revert and restore El_C's changes, but I hope that before restoring them again we can come to an agreement here first and reach some kind of compromise based on WP policies.Giovanni33 22:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, unless another sysop over-rules me, this isn't open to compromise and only reliable sources are to be added. You may treat the re-insertion of these promotional links as vandalism (i.e. not subject to your revert restrictions). El_C 06:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Promotional links

message: I edited that bit.
Nazi skinheads who play music similar to hardcore, Oi! or heavy metal are considered part of a separate genre called White Power Oi! or else Hatecore, not necessarily Rock Against Communism. While yes, most RAC is White Power and soemtimes NS, "Hatecore" and simply "White Power Music" are the main terms used in the scene for racist Skinhead music. 
RAC was a specific organization / concert series in the 1970s/UK, and it did spurn a "subgenre", but Musically, the RAC genre is mostly comprised of Oi!, punk rock, southern rock and rock and roll. That includes punk, so Nazi Punk can be RAC as well, and Nazi skinheads can play punk, oi, or metal and still not be RAC. The issue is, bands must identify as RAC to be RAC!
--Chicagomusicfan (talk) 12:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  RAC 

message: "...highly common leftist themes in most other punk music."  Surely that sort of punk music is very much a minority subset of punk as a whole, rather than 'most other punk music'? Scatterkeir (talk) 17:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Highly common leftist themes/"Leftist" Enemies?

message: Hi, I am a user who intends to offer Spanish-language information on NSP (Nazi Punk, Punk or National Socialist).
The information below will give you from the following page: 
----
History:
It's commonly heard and far too easy for today's so-called “scene” to scornfully claim that racialist punks are some kind of new and undesirable bizarre occurrence, considering how whitewashed and biased the history of punk has been thus far. However, the truth, as you will learn, proves to be quite contrary.
The history of the racialist punk movement can arguably be traced back to as early as 1977, with the birth of the punk subculture in England. However, the first verifiable evidence of the racialist punk movement was a youth division of the British National Front that formed in 1978 called the "Punk Front”. It started off as a mere political and music related ‘zine, but due to its rapid success it quickly turned into a organized group and wave of bands with a considerably significant following, particularly in Leeds, England.
The bands who partook in this movement included: The Dentists, Homicide, The Ventz and The Raw Boys. These ‘Punk Front’ bands played the first Rock Against Communism shows the National Front organized, which took place in 1979. Shortly after those early RAC concerts, the Punk Front had disbanded for various reasons (which included the incarceration of several members of the group).
By the early 1980s the National Front started to look towards the skinhead subculture to carry on the youth underground-based movement it had started since the punk scene had unfortunately began to get highly infiltrated by Marxists and various other politically correct followers. Despite the fact that skinheads had become the forerunners of the racialist music movement, there were still many punks to be found throughout Europe who still freely associated and contributed to the White Nationalist movement, even though they were in the minority.  
In the United States the 1980s saw a large emergence of racial punk crews nationwide, as well as a number of bands. Areas like New York City and Los Angeles were home to some of the largest amounts of racialist punks in the country. They could be found at nearly every show and in various places they were even the majority of the local scenes. It wasn't until the later part of the decade that politically correct/anti-racist “punks" (with aid from SHARPs) started to blacklist Nationalistic beliefs within the scene and thus the numbers of openly racialist punks unfortunately started to steadily decline.
This gradual reduction in the amount of racialist punks internationally carried on throughout the ‘90s and the increase of multiracial and fashion-orientated people within the subculture quickly skyrocketed.
Today we're in the midst of seeing of large reemergence of the racialist punk movement. Bands, crews and individuals are being seen all over the world taking part in this massive revival. This can mainly be attributed to the dissatisfaction of many individuals in the scene today who are just overwhelmingly tired of the irrationally politically correct direction the scene has continued to take. Therefore, we may see the racialist punk movement at the largest point it has ever been in within only a few years.
----
Ideology
RACE
* Racialism: The belief that human beings can be scientfically classified (genetically & anthropologically) into distinct races and that those races must be preserved with the utmost importance.
Some racialists believe in a racial hierarchy, in which certain races are thought to be physically and intellectually superior to others and thus have a higher worth than the so-called “inferior races". Others reject that notion and believe racial superiority to be an inaccurate concept and only seek to preserve genetic integrity and human biological diversity.
* White Nationalism: White Nationalism advocates a racial definition of national identity, as opposed to multiculturalism.
White Nationalism isn’t a defined political ideology, it’s generally more of a social outlook/philosophy. The followers of this philosophy have a wide range of varying political affiliations.
* Pan-Europeanism: The belief that all Europeans are predominantly of a similar genetic composition and need to unify under their common racial ancestry in order to secure the existence of their race.
* Pan-Aryanism: The belief that the Aryan (or “White”) race extends beyond the traditional borders of modern day Europe. Pan-Aryanists believe that there are still pure/unmixed Aryan minorities within parts of North Africa and the Middle East and that these Aryans have a shared historical, biological and cultural link with European Aryans.
 POLITICS
* National Socialism: A political and social ideology originally created in Germany in the early 20th century by Anton Drexler & Gottfried Feder. The ideology is a fusion between non-Marxist Socialism and racial Nationalism. National Socialism is uniquely defined by its strong state centralization, anti-internationalism, social merit system, racial hygiene laws and anti-Zionism.
Those who believe in the economic policy & racial stance of the ideology but favor a more democratic and decentralized state role (as the Strasser brothers advocated) sometimes refer to themselves as “Social Nationalists”.
* Nationalism: The belief that the social welfare of ones own nation and/or people should always be considered first and foremost by the government while international issues should rarely be concerned with by the state.
* Fascism: An ideology originating in early 20th century Italy which combined syndicalist economics with a strong state centralization, militarism and Nationalism.
* Falangism:  Falangism (not to be confused with the later reactionary Christian "Phalanx" movement) was a revolutionary political ideology which was formed in early 20th century Spain by José Antonio Primo de Rivera, though Ramiro Ledesma Ramos' National Syndicalist Union movement was also instrumental in influencing Falangist philosophy.
Falangism is characterized by strong state centralization, syndicalist economics and racial nationalism.
* National Anarchism: An ideology which combines traditional Anarchism with Nationalist doctrine. Most followers favor distributist economics and seek to live in completely decentralized/stateless & racially homogenous small communities.
* Third Positionism: Sometimes called the “Third Way”, is any variety or combination of philosophies and ideologies which seek a National Revolutionary alternative to Communism and Capitalism.
----
My English is not great, but that does not prevent me from providing information. I hope you find my input was useful.
--Nsuy1993 (talk) 01:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  NSP 

message: This article portrays punk in a way that fails to make a clear distinction between nazi punk and other forms of punk. Given punk's clear and verifiable leftist and anti-racist ideas, I'm concerned that this articles portrays punk unfairly negatively. Nazi punk is a minority, fringe element of punk, and that needs to be made clearer. WP:POV states that in articles about minority view points, the majority viewpoint should be discussed in away that the difference is clearly shown. This article doesn't do that, and I am adding a undue weight/emphasis tag.
"In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. How much detail is required depends on the subject. For instance, articles on historical views such as Flat Earth, with few or no modern proponents, may briefly state the modern position, and then go on to discuss the history of the idea in great detail, neutrally presenting the history of a now-discredited belief. Other minority views may require much more extensive description of the majority view to avoid misleading the reader. Wikipedia:Fringe theories and the NPOV FAQs provide additional guidance."-WP:POV
Skrelk (talk) 04:24, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't define punk. Sucks to be you. Kyz2 (talk) 22:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality and Emphasis

message: Somebody uploaded this picture to wikipedia: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tank2015.jpg  The two men on the right are members of the Nazi punk band Chaos 88. Would this photo be an appropriate image for this wiki page? The man on the left in the photo is an unrelated MMA fighter, so he would need to be cropped out of the photo.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.0.49.88 (talk) 05:57, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of Chaos 88 members 

message: Please feel free to participate at Talk:Swastika#RfC: Nazi symbol as swastika or variant of swastika. Binksternet (talk) 21:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for comment regarding how to represent the Nazi symbol 

message: Does anyone know what exactly needs more sources/citations? I would be happy to improve this article, but I checked the sources. Rahmspinat (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  References?