Talk:Lists of state leaders by age

message: was emperor at age of 2 in 1906 but is not featured in article 32.219.217.173 (talk) 01:04, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: As stated, the list of youngest ever leaders is only since 1935. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 05:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puyi?? 

message: Should Cornelius Smith, Governor-General of the Bahamas, be on the "currently serving" list? He isn't the head of state - King Charles III is. -- Hux (talk) 05:19, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, all governors-general should be deleted from this page, as they're not heads of state, but only representatives of heads of state. GoodDay (talk) 05:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bahamas? 

message: The Wikipedia Page Shows That He Is Born In 1980. Within 31 Days He Will Be 43. Change or not? 103.196.139.77 (talk) 10:30, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There seems to be some doubt about his date of birth. I guess a reliable source is needed. Mark and inwardly digest (talk) 11:08, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I Definitely Think He Is Not Born After 1990 But Not Born Before 1977 112.210.95.133 (talk) 12:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assimo Goita 

message: In my opinion Abdul Momin and Hastings Banda should not be included in 'the top ten of all time' table since their exact birth dates are not known. I noticed that in a previous edit Nicolò da Ponte Enrico Dandolo was removed precisely for that reason, so for consistency's sake those two should be removed as well and replaced with leaders with historically verifiable dates. Unless someone can provide a convincing argument to the contrary, I'm ready to make the change.--Johnn Francis (talk) 00:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've mentioned this topic at Talk:List of oldest living state leaders, which should get a broader input. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 01:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Although I must say I find it quite strange that consensus is required to remove those two leaders, but no consensus seems to have been required for the removal of Nicolò da Ponte Enrico Dandolo, even though the argument put forth (no precise birth date) is the same in both cases. Why the discrepancy? The result is that the current list is inconsistent, which is what bothers me the most. Either put all of the leaders with nonprecise birth dates, or put none of them.--Johnn Francis (talk) 01:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just realized I confused Nicolò da Ponte (who is still currently on the list and has a precise birth date) with Enrico Dandolo. Silly me! But my point still stands. By the way, I didn't ask you, what is your personal opinion on the matter? You seem to be a regular contributor to this page, so surely you must have an opinion.--Johnn Francis (talk) 01:27, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

text: I've put your edit back in. Banda's DoB was changed last year to 1906, which appears to be reliably sourced so he is no longer old enough to be included (why no-one picked this up earlier I have no idea). I've omitted being president of the ZANU-PF Mugabe as that is not a state leader position. Momin does not appear to have a WP:RS for his year of birth, so until there is one he should not be included. If there is only a year of birth and not a day, I see no reason to exclude him if the his minimum possible age is old enough to be included. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 09:11, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If the 1906 year is valid, then I can't see why not why they shouldn't be on the list. But, if its not clear, I'd just leave off until its made clear. TheCorriynial (talk) 13:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if the 1906 year is valid, it means that Banda was at the most 88 years old by the time he left office, so that disqualifies him from appearing in the table.--Johnn Francis (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Thanks to both of you for your responses. I'm glad we managed to reach a consensus. I had actually thought earlier about the case where the year of birth of a leader is known with certainty, but their day and month are not, and I wondered how that would work in terms of calculating their exact age at the time they died/left office. Surely an approximation would have to be made, but then their exact ranking in the table would become problematic. Let's take for example an imaginary king whose birth date, which would be, say 1200 (but any year would do) is known with certainty, but we have no idea about what day and month that was. We do know, however, that he died on the throne on January 1st, 1298. Now, depending on the exact date on which he was born, his age at the time of his death could be as high as 98 years old (if he was born on January 1st, 1200) or as low as 97 years and 1 day old (if he was born on December 31st, 1200). We can see that in the first case, he would be ranked first in the table, above Giovanni Paolo Lascaris, while in the second case, he would be ranked second, between Lascaris and Elizabeth II. I don't know how we would work that out in practice. Should we prioritize that king's highest age, which would give him the top spot, or on the contrary should we go for the lowest age, even if it results in him falling down the table, or should we try to reach a median age between the highest and the lowest? I honestly don't know. Of course, at the moment, all of this is theoretical, because as far as I know no leader currently qualifies for this type of situation, but this scenario might very well happen in the future (for example, if a researcher somehow unearths the previously unknown birth year of some ancient leader), so we might as well be prepared for it.--Johnn Francis (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Its very unlikely will get exact dates before the 1500s evenly across the board. And even if say someday we do get close to exact dates with Ramesses II dates, its still going to cause debates for a while. I'd go with the lower end of age, with a note/efn saying "Estimated lower end due to unknown date and month of birth", but it would be nice to gain exact dates for past leaders. TheCorriynial (talk) 19:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unknown birth dates for Abdul Momin and Hastings Banda 

message: Which sovereign state did Lascaris reign over? GoodDay (talk) 15:39, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Malta 109.245.79.203 (talk) 13:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lascaris 

message: I propose changing the 1900 year to account for the fact that Alfonso XIII, who had been King of Spain since his birth in 1886, was younger than some of the names listed below in 1900. A previous version of the page used 1905, and I'm actually the one who changed it to 1900 because I didn't understand why that particular year was chosen. But now I do, although I'm not sure if 1905 is really the best option. I propose 1908, since this is the year Puyi became Emperor of China. But I'd be fine with going back to 1905, since by that time Alfonso XIII was already older than the tenth name in the table (currently Hussein, who became King at 16 years, 271 days old). I guess 1903 would be good too, since that was the year he turned 17, and thus was older than all the names in the table. Let me know what you think. Johnn Francis (talk) 16:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not entirely certain, how to work this out. But, I am curious to see what ideas others will present. Would changing the sub-section heading to "since 1885" help? GoodDay (talk) 16:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh wow, I was actually writing my reply to your comment when you made a further edit, and guess what? I was actually talking about that very point. The following is in fact the comment I was about to send: Thanks for tuning in ;) Another possibility, which I actually thought about but forgot to mention, would be to change the year to 1886, which is when Alfonso XIII was born/became king. This would actually put him at the top of the table, since he literally became head of state at 0 years, 0 days old. You can hardly get any younger than that. So looks like we both had the same idea. Yeah, in retrospect, I think that would probably be the best/most logical decision.--Johnn Francis (talk) 17:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's not forget John I of France, though his life & reign were quite short. GoodDay (talk) 17:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indeed, but that was way earlier in time (1316, to be exact). I think the idea behind whoever originally wrote that sub-section was to include only state leaders that are close to our current timeline, so basically 21st, 20th (and possibly late 19th as we're both suggesting) centuries.--Johnn Francis (talk) 17:29, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

text: If we go back to 1886, then it would make more sense to use the picture of him as an infant, since of the two pictures you showed, that's the one closer in time to when he became king (which was upon birth, but obviously we don't have a picture of him immediately after delivery...). Johnn Francis (talk) 04:36, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing the 1900 year for youngest heads of state