Talk:Leonard Neale

message: The section below was deleted by one editor who is of the opinion that this section does not belong here. The section does not claim that it is true, it is sourced and it should not have been removed from Father Leonard Neale's article as he is the one named in "the story." If this editor wanted to add to the article by adding that others refute the story and include sources that would be proper. But to delete sourced information without any discussion here is just not cricket! Dwain (talk) 21:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: have been all over the claim that Fr. Neale was called to Washington's deathbed, and as far as anyone can tell the only authority is an article from the Archdiocese of Denver's newsletter. I have yet to find the full text of this article, nor any evidence of its sources. You are welcome to produce either, or some other more reliable source, but given the existence of two eyewitness testimonies to the contrary, the story should not appear in the article, at least in any form that relates as anything other than a legend. Mangoe (talk) 02:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Further investigation has shown that the DR articles probably don't exist. I'm giving this five more days and then I'm removing the material entirely if substantiation isn't produced. Mangoe (talk) 04:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to commend Mangoe on his research into this ... he has checked the DeMoines Public Library, and (I believe) has even contacted the Archdiocese. It does indeed turn out that the DeMoines register article in question never actually existed.  Since "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", we must have exceptionally reliable sources to include the claim that Washington converted to Catholicism at his deathbed.  The DR, and by extension any source that cites the DR, can not qualify. Blueboar (talk) 17:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, all that needs to be proven is that the story exists since the claim has not been made that it is true in this entry. Dwain (talk) 20:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dwain, See WP:V  One of our core policies on Wikipedia.  These are not negotiable. Blueboar (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improper deletion 

message: User:Dwain removed the following explanation from his talk page:
:have been all over the claim that Fr. Neale was called to Washington's deathbed, and as far as anyone can tell the only authority is an article from the Archdiocese of Denver's newsletter. I have yet to find the full text of this article, nor any evidence of its sources. You are welcome to produce either, or some other more reliable source, but given the existence of two eyewitness testimonies to the contrary, the story should not appear in the article, at least in any form that relates as anything other than a legend. Mangoe (talk) 02:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Further investigation has shown that the DR articles probably don't exist. I'm giving this five more days and then I'm removing the material entirely if substantiation isn't produced. Mangoe (talk) 04:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to commend Mangoe on his research into this ... he has checked the DeMoines Public Library, and (I believe) has even contacted the Archdiocese. It does indeed turn out that the DeMoines register article in question never actually existed.  Since "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", we must have exceptionally reliable sources to include the claim that Washington converted to Catholicism at his deathbed.  The DR, and by extension any source that cites the DR, can not qualify. Blueboar (talk) 17:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, all that needs to be proven is that the story exists since the claim has not been made that it is true in this entry. Dwain (talk) 20:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dwain, See WP:V  One of our core policies on Wikipedia.  These are not negotiable. Blueboar (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Why this shouldn't be in the article

message: Well, I have been to the New York Public Library.  They have editions of the NCR on file from the 1960s on, but not from the 1950s... neither do any of the other libraries and accademic institutions the NYPL has partnered with.  This raises issues of verifiability.  If it turns out that it is impossible to verify something after a reasonable search at one of the largest public libraries in the US, is it still verifiable?  I am not sure of the answer to that (I have asked at WP:V). Blueboar (talk) 20:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone can contact the archivist Karyl Klein at the Denver Catholic Register who can be reached at archives@archden.org. Karyl e-mailed me the two articles from The National Catholic Register. Here is a link to the page where I found the archivist: http://www.archden.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=11&Itemid=421 Dwain (talk) 22:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that JASpencer requested a quote of the relevant text back in April... it has not yet been provided (it is the end of May).  I will give it another few weeks... but if it is not provided, I am going to raise this issue again with an eye to deleting under WP:FRINGE. Blueboar (talk) 12:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Catholic Register 

message: I guess he wanted a quote concerning the wailing of Washington's slaves, so here it is.
"These were not Catholic Negroes; it is part of the tradition that weeping and wailing occurred in the quarters that Massa Washington had been snared by the Scarlet Woman of Rome, whom they had been taught to fear and hate." Dwain (talk) 18:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So the quote does not mention Neale? Blueboar (talk) 14:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty obvious that the above quote, the quote that was asked for, does not have Neale's name in it. The article, which I will not reprint here because it is copyrighted material, does. JA Spencer asked for the, "quote on Washington" after the sentence about "wailing." The article is clear on which person (Leonard Neale) was said to have been called out. Dwain (talk) 20:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested Quote 

message: Baccyak4H said, "If one could actually track down the NCR cite (1957? ouch...), I would judge it a reliable source."
Not only did I track down the article, but I also told how I got it, who I contacted and how people could get a copy of the article themselves.
I have further tracked down another good source which I was listing as you were erasing the text. I have added it back. This is no longer a single sourced item. Dwain (talk) 01:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "I would judge it a reliable source." 

message: I have some information I think will help. I have two volumes that prove the tradition was around longer then just the 50s. The first volume comes from 1931 and written by Edward I Divett on page 369. It mentions the story that "Father Neale of Port Tobacco was summoned to Mt. Vernon." And continues by saying that it was infered "that the Father of his Country was baptized a Catholic." This was printed under "History of the Province" in volume 60 of the Woodstock Letters.
The second and much more important volume is from The Woodstock Letters volume 22. George Washington's first cousin thrice removed stated that her grandmother was a contemporary of George Washington and his first cousin and that this information had come down in the family. It states that "Fr. Neale... baptized Washington on his death-bed." This can be found on page 498. This is a most interesting and pursuasive source since it proves that this tradition goes back to less then 100 years after Washington's death, since the volume was printed in 1893, and it shows that the tradition came down within Washington's own family! Hope this helps. I will attempt to add this. W. Heckmann PS The Woodstock letters is a 98 volume set of books printed from 1872 to 1969. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.69.127.123 (talk) 17:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, thank you very much for this information! It sounds really interesting. I'll check this out. Thanks again. Dwain (talk) 21:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Source for Washington Conversion Story 

message: Dwain... Someone (unsigned) has suggested a compromise in reply to your querry at the WP:FRINGE/Noticeboard... one that I could live with. Essentially it pare's down the paragraph at issue to one short sentence. Take a look and let me know what you think? Blueboar (talk) 13:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine how about: "According to Jesuit, slave[1] and family[2] tradition Neale baptized Washington on his deathbed,[3][4] however, eyewitness accounts make no mention of such an event.[5][6]" Dwain (talk) 16:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me... We can tweek it if slightly if needed. Blueboar (talk) 00:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK... I have replaced the text as per above.  I think we may have settled this.  The only minor issue remaining is to see if we can track down the full publication info on the Woodstock letters (who was the editor/publisher, where and when was it published ... stuff like that).  Blueboar (talk) 12:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okie dokie.Dwain (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we also need a quotation in the reference. Mangoe (talk) 20:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we should just leave it with "Jesuit and slave tradition" for now... we can add "family" back in once we have the full citation and quote for the Woodstock Letters.  Any objection to this? Blueboar (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, just noticd this now. Sure. Dwain (talk) 21:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible compromise 

message: I don't think there's any room for this image until the article is further expanded. I'm adding the link here so future editors can use it if they want (in a "Legacy" section or something similar). APK is ready for the tourists to leave 09:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Leonard Neale House.JPG]] 

message: I've deleted this material again because I don't see a "tradition" here to work with. The NCR story does not exist; at least, nobody here has seen a physical copy of it, and the dates given are implausible. Given that lack I'm disinclined to believe that any of the sources for this "tradition" are real. I might be willing to say something along the lines of "rumors that Neale baptized Washington (cite an example website) are belied by eyewitness accounts(citation)" but I don't see any evidence of a real tradition. Mangoe (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we resolve the deathbed conversion tale once and for all? 

message: Article cites "Currier 1890" but there is no such entry in the bibliography. Please add. Renata (talk) 04:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Added. Ergo Sum  17:01, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing cite

message: With regard to your significant reworking of the phrasing of the article, I noticed that there are many sentences that now are not supported by inline citations. There have also been some statements added that appear to be contextualizing but are not supported by the existing citations. Can you please restore the inline citations at the end of each sentence? Thank you. Ergo Sum  02:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I will go back to the article and address these issues.  Thank you for bringing them to my attention. Rogermx (talk) 17:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent major rephrasing