Talk:Carlingford Lough/Archive 1

message: The only reason I see for this link is to try and circumvent the failure of attempts to move Republic of Ireland – United Kingdom border. As long as that article remains in its current location, there is no need for the link to be piped. O Fenian (talk) 11:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that is why I removed the piping from the box. Mo ainm~Talk 11:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. I am happy with the page as it is. I dont think there is any inaccuracy in saying that it lies on the Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland border.Factocop (talk) 11:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  So you don't like it and that is the reason for your reverts. Mo ainm~Talk 11:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the page is accurate in its content. feel free to answer the questions above in the previous thread if you can?Factocop (talk) 12:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Well the template states Location. Sovereign state is not mentioned. Why does it have to be piped to anywhere? I would be happy enough if it said Location:Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland Border without the pipe.Factocop (talk) 14:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: An international border is preffered. GoodDay (talk) 14:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Well there are enough sources that confirm that Northern Ireland is a country, so to say Location:Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland Border would not be inaccurate.Factocop (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's gotta be an international border, when a sovereign state (Ireland) is included. GoodDay (talk) 14:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text:  I know what you want Factocop as you are the one who changed it with consensus or discussion. Mo ainm~Talk 14:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: doesnt make sense...come again?Factocop (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Given that it already says in the body of the text that the lough is a glacial fjord or sea inlet that forms part of the international border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south. my changes were consistent with this. Obviously I didnt raise this in the topic discussion and so my changes were reverted and I was warned. On the other hand your change was not raised in the discussion, was not reverted and you were not warned. There seems to be a small injustice here?Factocop (talk) 15:10, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: When speaking of international borders, we should use Republic of Ireland and United Kingdom. Anyways, what's the names of the counties on either side of the lough? GoodDay (talk) 15:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: When speaking of international borders, we should use Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Also its a bit vague to say on on the border if the border is 200 miles long. The County in Northern Ireland is Down.Factocop (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Either use to sovereign states or no sovereign states. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: I would ask you not to comment on editors but on the edits it is a personal attack to say my edit was disruption. Mo ainm~Talk 15:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: From where I see it, all but 1 editor is in agreement. GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that alot of people who would be interested in this discussion are not aware of it, its not really a fair representation.Factocop (talk) 15:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your refusal to indent properly, is becoming annoying. Please do it correctly? GoodDay (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Piped link

message: What is the question you keep repeatedly asking editors to answer Factocop? Mo ainm~Talk 12:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I was hoping you would respond to the points I made earlier -
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACarlingford_Lough&action=historysubmit&diff=394759794&oldid=394758907
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACarlingford_Lough&action=historysubmit&diff=395559283&oldid=395554862.
and I was hoping Northern Counties would respond to this -
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACarlingford_Lough&action=historysubmit&diff=395712600&oldid=395568223
......14:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: I have answered twice already NI is not a country. Mo ainm~Talk 14:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can you show me the diffs responding to the points I made?Factocop (talk) 14:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: You havent answered the questions again. ohh well, if in doubt and for lack of an argument, just ignore. well done. another constructive argument...(smirk)...ohh and you should probably tell the British Government as they beg to differ.Factocop (talk) 14:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: More importantly, NI isn't sovereign. Let's use [Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom|Ireland-United Kingdom]. GoodDay (talk) 14:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: More importantly, a country does not have to be a sovereign state to have an international border.Factocop (talk) 14:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Change the content to RoI - United Kingdom, aswell. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: The body of the text says that the lough is a glacial fjord or sea inlet that forms part of the international border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south. so shouldnt the infobox reflect this in location: Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland Border without the need to pipe it anywhere?Factocop (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Change content to reflect infobox. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text:  Don't think we are allowed to pipe like that after the ROI/Ireland naming dispute. Mo ainm~Talk 15:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Would pipelinking to counties suffice? GoodDay (talk) 15:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Might be the other way round with the piping  bit confused on the naming issue. Mo ainm~Talk 15:03, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: We certainly can't use Northern Ireland. That would be like saying Lake Huron is surrounded by Ontario & the United States. GoodDay (talk) 15:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Dont think Ontario is a country so its not the same.Factocop (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ontario (like Northern Ireland) isn't a sovereign state. If ya wanna use Northern Ireland? then use something other then the RoI. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: So are you telling me that only Sovereign states can have international borders?Factocop (talk) 15:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  He is telling you NI is not a country. Mo ainm~Talk 15:30, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is really hard to believe anything you say Mo, first you said Northern was not a country that it is a province and then you said that it is not a province either. A lot of holes in your argument.Factocop (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Northern Ireland, is like Scotland, England & Wales - they make up a sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I am aware of this. SO enlighten me, what kind of border to England and Scotland share?Factocop (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless the UK has broken up, it's not an internation border. The border between England/Scotland isn't like the border between Canada/United States. GoodDay (talk) 15:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So England and Scotland are not countries? And ill remind you that the template states location, not Border Sovereign StatesFactocop (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the 4th or 5th time, I've had to fix your indent. Anyways, I don't care if England & Scotland are called countries, provinces, territories etc etc. They're not independant, haven't been since 1707. GoodDay (talk) 15:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You didnt say that. My point is that you dont have to be a Soverign state to be a country or have an international border. Agreed?Factocop (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok so a country has to be Soverign State to have an international border. what do you call a border shared by 2 countries that are not sovereign states then?Factocop (talk) 16:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, see WP:INDENT. Secondly, call'em national borders or whatever, but they're not international. GoodDay (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: well by definition international means - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/international where as national only refers to one nation. So to use the word national to describe something relating to two or more countries is in correct. I have proven you wrong again. LOL.Factocop (talk) 16:17, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Very mature. Well I have just picked your argument apart so a new suggestion will need to be raised because there clearly is no rationale for a change other than 'just because' and I dont use indents.Laughable really.Factocop (talk) 16:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My alleged behaviour is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there's absolutely no consensus to pipe-link. The onus of getting a consensus, falls on the change proposer (not the status quoers). As there's no consensus, this continued discussion is pointless. If ya got anything futher to say, ya know where my office is (my talkpage). GoodDay (talk) 16:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where can someone apply for a Northern Irish Paspport or a Scottish Passport? Mo ainm~Talk 15:39, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends, where are you applying from?Factocop (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  From Ireland do I look for the northern Ireland embassy? Can't find one I have looked. Mo ainm~Talk 15:46, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Which part of the Island of Ireland? If you are looking in Northern Ireland, you will not find a Northern Irish Embassy as Emabassy's tend to be located on foreign soil.Factocop (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just give me the address of one northern Ireland emabassy anywhere. Mo ainm~Talk 15:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure you are entitled to one?Factocop (talk) 16:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: The supposed Irish derivation of Cairlinn is incorrect, refer to the Carlingford article for the correct Nordic derivation. Carling is obviously Viking (Norse) and the fact that the Irish name Snám Aignech is completely different confirms that Cairlinn is derived from Norse. DesmondW (talk) 09:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish language name 

message: Is it not the case that the south side of Lough also includes County Armagh as well as County Louth? This issue may partly depend on where the Lough ends and the tidal river estuary ends. 
Maps are touch and go on this point e.g. 
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,711561,819189,6,3
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,711561,819189,6,7
Ardmacha (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography 

message: Struggling to see the problem with the word "international" before border. It is an international boundary.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  International 

message: I found this policy that might be of some help here. It looks like it is quite acceptable and even required under Wiki policy to refer to "Northern Ireland" when referring to Northern Ireland, even when the borders discussed are formal states and not formal states.
::"Use of Ireland and Republic of Ireland
::Shortcut:
::WP:IRE-IRL
::Concerns have been expressed that using the word Ireland alone can mislead given that it refers to both the island of Ireland and the Irish state (which are not conterminous). A discussion process decided to leave the article on the island at Ireland and the article on the Irish state at Republic of Ireland until consensus changes.
::A consensus emerged with respect to referring to the island and the state in other contexts:
::When referring to places and settlements in the Republic of Ireland in the introduction to articles (and in elements such as info boxes), use Ireland not Ireland or Republic of Ireland (e.g. "Cork is a city in Ireland").
::In other places prefer use of Ireland, except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context or where confusion may arise. In such circumstances use Republic of Ireland (e.g. "Strabane is at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland")..."
I am trying to understand the concerns here. I do not understand why, at the least, the border designation could not be "UK (Northern Ireland)", instead of just "UK". This places the area of discussion more specifically. From the policies I have seen, accuracy and understanding are the goal when creating an article as stated in this policy:
::Wikipedia:Writing better articles "Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia. People who read Wikipedia have different backgrounds, education and opinions. Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject: the article needs to explain the subject fully."Coaster92 (talk) 05:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:Manual of Style/Ireland related articles]]

message: Could someone close the above RfC as the most vociferous supporters are in fact the same person and are indef blocked for socking along with the other new account who is also blocked for socking. Mo ainm~Talk 17:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes please close this. There is no consensus for any change to the stable version of this article. I wonder how long it will be before the next sock comes along? Bjmullan (talk) 20:17, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: From a quick look, it seems to be more than just the sock editors who were in favor of a change. If people don't object, I'm willing to go through the above discussion and put strikeouts through all the contributions from editors who are now blocked. (This would still allow their posts to be read). My action would not be the same as closing the RfC, but it might help the participants to see if there is still a valid discussion remaining. For best results, whoever closes this RfC should also look at the thread at Talk:Republic of Ireland–United Kingdom border#Move to Northern Ireland-Republic of Ireland border. EdJohnston (talk) 00:18, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem with all the socks comments being struckout. And also on the proposed move talk page linked above by Ed. Mo ainm~Talk 10:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Great idea. Will hopefully highlight to people just how much disruption and time wasting they have caused us all. Bjmullan (talk) 11:29, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  No! They are blocked, so what? They are not proved to be socks. Where's the precedent for striking comments of blocked users? Your suggestion has no merit whatsoever and is provocative. And Mo aim, you still didn't answer my question above about whether or not, like others, you are prepared to compromise. Van Speijk (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: They are indeed socks, and that is why they are blocked. Not only is one of them running socks, but they are also using the socks to avoid their indefinite ban from the project. Removing the post of banned users is the order of the day.--Domer48'fenian' 15:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  To back up your assertion please file an SPI. Van Speijk (talk) 15:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  What do you mean compromise? As it stands it is factually correct. Mo ainm~Talk 16:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  So are the alternatives bing proposed, but I'll take your continuing evasion as a 'no'. Van Speijk (talk) 16:19, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Strikeout of comments is not the same as removal. Per this, Gravyring and Hackneyhound are two accounts of the same person. Neetandtidy is a sock per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/MickMacNee. If later review clears the sock charges, then the comments can be unstruck. EdJohnston (talk) 16:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know. Their comments stand until they are proved to be socks, which so far they haven't been (I'm talking gravy and hackney). Why must you make a bad situation even worse by suggesting yet more provocative actions? Just leave it. For "per this.." read "guess". Van Speijk (talk) 16:36, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to close RfC

message: The article has been fully protected for one week, per a request at WP:RFPP.  Please use this time to reach consensus on the outstanding issues. After protection expires, any editors who don't seem interested in consensus may be subject to discretionary sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Please can someone insert some actual context into the opening of this article - before going on about the border this and northern/republic that, it's surely more important to locate this article for readers as being on the island of Ireland first. Therefore, I request that "on the island of Ireland" be inserted between "is a glacial fjord or sea inlet" and "forms part of the border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south".
I appreciate that in these pathetic nationalistic wars where both sides fight for their preferred POV versions, the interests of non-Irish/British readers come very a distant second, but I was annoyed to see that this nonsense has led to a protection which stops me from just making such an obviously needed edit like this. Although that's not to say the admins are doing a decent job of handling this dispute either. I have an opinion on the actual content dispute above about what to put in the infobox, I could even cogently argue it from a position of fact and based on what serves the reader, but on the evidence of reading the above, I'm not kidding myself that it would be listened to, or be incorprated in the final solution. I find the suggestion from the protecting admin above that there has been any kind of actual Wikipedia type consensus building going on here before the protection, to be an insult to my intelligence, and want no part of such a farce. Both sides are clearly pushing a POV, but it appears one camp is winning the dispute because they're more established and know how to better evade and entrap their opponents in order to win the dispute as they participate in sham discussions. Judicious use of tag team edit warring/reverting due to 'no consensus' also helps. I believe this used to be called gaming the system or civil POV pushing, but either way it never used to be given the legitimacy of being called consensus building. But who knows, maybe things have changed since I last editted. so at this time, just the island edit will do please.  Neetandtidy (talk) 13:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm closing this edit request with no action since the submitter, Neetandtidy, has been blocked per a complaint at SPI. If anyone else can figure out if there is a valid point buried within the above oration, please make a new request and it will be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 17:28, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insert link to island of Ireland in opening