Talk:THC Ministry

message: ALL the arguments below REFERENCES should be ignored!
 Video Documentary on thc-ministry
** ATTN: Video appears to have been removed **  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.17.190 (talk) 19:26, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quick Note: The government(at least in the United States) does not "recognize" or license religions, though they do provide
for religious organizations to incorporate for various reasons... for example as a church to hold property or conduct commerce activities.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501c3 as an example of regulations providing for religions to incorporate for specific activities otherwise regulated by law.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.17.190 (talk) 19:30, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion

message: Quoting from the website:
:Do you use cannabis religiously?
:Would you like to use cannabis religiously?
:Would you like to be free of legal problems associated with cannabis for the rest of your life?
:Would you like identification that will help to protect you from arrest, prosecution and conviction of cannabis charges?
:If you answered yes to any of these questions, then the THC-Ministry might be for you.
Now, let's distinguish questions 1 and 2 from questions 3 and 4. First off, whether and how one uses cannabis for religious purposes, this information ought simply to be made freely available without being "tied" to an "identification scheme" for protecting one from arrest, prosecution and conviction. Why is this not just put on the website, or offered freely?
As for the second set of questions, they have nothing whatsoever to do with religion, faith or belief of any kind. They advertise a strategy, one which I think unlikely to hold up in US courts at least, based on IDENTIFYING oneself as a member of this organization, without in fact necessarily even sharing their beliefs, whatever they may be.
Now, few people may understand what is meant by a sacrament, it is not a legalistic concept but one that can be directly understood through spiritual experience, or testified to by those who have knowledge of it. To the extent that the "THC Ministry" wishes to testify, I give them all support and encouragement, and I will even testify my own agreement. Cannabis is the sacrament of communion for some people. Others use it recreationally or without such effects, and I think they should not be prohibited from doing so, for the very reason they may discover such higher potentials. Indeed, I think this is precisely *why* it is illegal. Cannabis does more than this, it is also a treatment for pain and nausea and glaucoma and other conditions which are the subject of current medical pot advocacy, and this has validity although it is a narrower point. I make my own position plain here so that I will not be accused of bias against the concept of a cannabis ministry, when I say that this organization is apparently a commercial enterprise with a very damaging effect on the perceptions of people who may conclude that everyone who ascribes religious significance to cannabis is somehow connected with this legalistic and money-making scheme.
Since Roger Christie has posted here, I say to him: Do not trivialize this issue and make claims of legal protection which you cannot provide. The US courts have not recognized the right of Rastafari to use the sacrament, they will not give greater deference to your church. It has always been the case that those who hold sincere religious convictions must endure hardships and often practice in secrecy. I do not say you should stop testifying, to the contrary, I encourage it, but keep clear of claiming temporal powers you do not possess. Whig 08:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advocacy/Commerce 

message: Just wanted to point out that according to (at least in the U.S.) constitutional law (that is, a decision handed down by the Supreme Court), it is not the place of ANYBODY to determine the legitimacy of any religion.
I think it sounds a lot more biased to say that they 'claim' to be a religion than to afford them the same courtesy given any other more 'traditional' religion. In the persuit of NPOV, therefore, it seems most prudent to refer to them as a religion, lest it should sound as though Wikipedia is saying that they are a bunch of kooks making wild claims. You CLAIM that they CLAIM to be a religion.
According to the American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company, religion is defined thusly:
re·li·gion 
n.
1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I fail to see how the THC Ministry does not justify the use of the word religion according to this definition. On stumbling upon this debate, I read over the THC Ministry's website and found that they indeed provide quite an ample historical basis for their beliefs (or alleged beliefs, as I am sure some of you would like to word it). They say, correctly I might add, that cannabis sativa (hemp) has been used for centuries by Buddhists, and that there is are many theologeans that believe that the holy anointing oil of the Judeo-christian faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is composed mostly of hemp. If you doubt the intent of the ministry's members, I suggest you browse their forums, where most of the discussion is about scripture (I doubt that even the most skeptical among you can suggest that a bunch of 'stoners' seeking mere legal asylum for their vice of choice sit around and discuss verses of the Torah, New Testament, Avesta, and other theological texts).
Just some thoughts. If in doubt, I suggest the Wikipedia community stop passing judgement. Isn't that exactly what we're NOT supposed to do? Thanks to all who read this, I read all of your posts before posting and appreciate the breadth of the discussion.--thereverendeg 15:30, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just wanted to add my two cents... 

message: I thought again about this and figured that this wording may be agreeable to all... How about instead of saying that "The THC Ministry is a religion" or that they "claim to be a religion" why not say "According to their website [and/or founder Roger Christie and/or practitioners], the THC Ministry is a religion..."
That seems to be NPOV-sufficient, while maintaining TRUE citation. Thoughts anyone? --thereverendeg 15:35, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the Circuit Court of Hawaii having ruled against prosecution for cannabis possession or use by the THC Ministry, based upon this document. For the sake of those who are not familiar with legal practice, a "Stipulation" is by a party to an action, and in this case the prosecutor (not the judge) agreed that the "Religion of Jesus Church" is a bona fide religion, and that the defendant (Dennis Shields) sincerely believes in the sacramental use of cannabis. The particular charge that seems to be at issue here is "Promoting detrimental drug in the 2nd degree" in violation of some claimed statute. Frankly, I think such a charge ought to be dismissed on first amendment grounds at the very least. This is not a prosecution for actual possession or use. Whig 04:19, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another thought.... perhaps wording acceptable to everyone... 

message: Since thereverendeg claims to be a member of the THC Ministry I took his edit that the organization is based on the Religion of Jesus Church (Urantia) to be accurate, however I would like to see this documented/cited appropriately in the article. Whig 05:39, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, essentially the THC Ministry is founded in Urantia on the basis that Roger Christie (founder of the THC Ministry) "was ordained by the Reverend Dennis Shields into the Religion Of Jesus Church in early June of 2000" (according to the Hawai'i Ministry of Cannabis Sacrament's website at www.thc-ministry.org - exact page linked here, almost imediately after which he founded the THC Ministry by becoming licensed on June 19 (probably a week or so later) as a "Cannabis Sacrament" minister (document here). I'm not exactly sure how this should be added into the article, so I suppose I should leave this to you, Whig? I appreciate your manor, by the way. --thereverendeg 00:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So is the THC Ministry a separate religion in any way from the Religion of Jesus Church and if not, should we move or merge this content? Whig 01:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, the thing we should do is remove the redirect for Religion of Jesus Church (RJC) and instead make a new article for it. The THC-Ministry and the RJC are seperate organizations; Roger Christie simply was ordained by the RJC and used much of its structure to form the THC Ministry. The Urantia is also a seperate entity from the RJC, who use it as a religious text (though it isn't even mentioned in the Urantia article). I think a few changes are deffinitely in order to all of the mentioned articles. If there is no argument I will go ahead and set to work on it. --thereverendeg 02:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Urantia 

message: As I stated (in other words) in the first post I made in this discussion, I find it extremely insulting that people feel the need to edit this article to have it read that we, THC Ministry members, "CLAIM" to believe in our religion.
I am de founder of the Amsterdam THC Ministry and anyone who tells me that I "claim" to believe is clearly out to insult my religion, the members of my religion and me personally. WHY?
How would other religions like it if people start editing the other religions pages with that "CLAIM" to believe? Shall we introduce at the Muslim and Christian pages that they "CLAIM that there is a god" and see what happens?
I am afraid, since our ministry got attacked the way it was in this comments tread and the article itself, to edit anything in that page myself anymore because I feel bullyed by a few editors who do not have any knowledge of our religion and edit the article in such a way that we look like we are not sincere.
every time this article reflects sincere belief, this is edited out using POV as an excuse to do so. this is not right and for all I care wikipedia can delete this insulting article. --Ferre 07:29, 18 January 2006 (+1 GMT)
:I have edited the article in the light of your comments and it should be okay now. I do agree with your comments, good luck with your legalising mission, hopefully you can spread that message further than just Holland, SqueakBox 14:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'claim' edited in to be insultive 

message: The message stated that this article should be removed because according to the person who added this message, THC Ministry would be "Not noticeable".
This is incorrect, High Times magazine, the millenium edition, had an article dedicated to THC Ministry, also in the latest edition (Jan '08) there is an article about THC Ministry and THC Ministry is mentioned in a section of "The Cannabible" by Jason King, a frontpage article, Monday, September 06, 2004 on the Hawai'i Tribune Herald. There has been a four page article in the Dutch HighLife magazine a few years ago as well as articles in various news papers due to court cases THC Ministry members have been involved in due to their religious beliefs and many more articles in various magazines and newspapers the past 8 years. 
January '07 the American tv presentator Bill Maher has travelled to Amsterdam for an interview with me personally to talk about THC Ministry for a documentary on religions which will be released within the coming months, directed by Larry Charles who also directed the "Borat" movie. If THC Ministry is not "noticeable" then tell me why Bill Maher comes all the way to Amsterdam with a film crew (two cameras and the works) to interview me about this religion. Apparently THC Ministry is not as un-noticeable as the editor who added that delete message would like people to believe.
Also, with a google search for THC Minisry with 77.900 results that is not what one would call not noticeable.
Firthermore, as one of the administrators I can confirm that THC Ministry has more than 10.000 registered members world wide (the amound exceeds 10.000 many times, but THC Ministry does not enclose exact statistics) and there is a physical head office in Hawai'i and an office in Amsterdam and it's officially registered in various US states and countries outside America. (one of them being the Netherlands)
Scanned article in Dutch Highlife Magazine;
http://www.thc-ministry.net/downloads/HighLife-article.pdf (scanned copy on pdf file)
Scanned article from High Times magazine:
http://www.thc-ministry.org/pdfs/roger-christie-a-promotion-from-god.pdf
And as a last remark, I plead to wiki editors to drop their prejustice and stop their attempts to burry this article, in fact I fail to see why people who have different religious beliefs should be editing other people's religion's articles, as that delete message clearly displayd apparently there is some sort of bias against this religion on wiki, this is not the first time this article has been up for discussion about its credibility. 
Ferre (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia has a consistent set of rules for defining notability which apply to all articles equally. It is not arbitrary, biased or prejudiced. What you need to do to demonstrate notability is get links to show that the organisation has received independent coverage by reputable sources. To be honest, stoner magazines may not be considered the best reputable sources but you should still add them as references, if that is the best you have. If you have anything more mainstream then add that as well. Try to link directly to the source rather than a copy on the organisation's own site. If you can adequate demonstrate notability then the article will not be deleted. If not, I suspect that somebody will list it at Articles for Deletion. If that happens there will be a discussion about whether to delete the article. Remember, it is the article that we are concerned about here, not the organisation itself. There are a lot of organisations in the World which are not notable enough to be in an Encyclopaedia. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with them. Try not to take it personally. --DanielRigal (talk) 01:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text: You make some fair points. You are right that you should we very wary of editing the article as you are so closely associated with the organisation but I think that adding references to the existing content is OK under these circumstances. I wasn't trying to be insulting. The problem with the sources is that many counter-culture magazines tend not to have as high a level of accuracy as mainstream and other specialist magazines. They are independent however, so you can still use them as references. Reputable sources is not necessarily a binary thing and I am not saying that the sources you provided are disreputable. All I am saying is that an article in an indisputably mainstream publication would be even more helpful as it would establish notability beyond any question. I can see your problem with the scans. It is better if you link to the primary sources when you can but it is OK to use the scans when you can't. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Sources do not need to be "on-line".  Wikipedia accepts printed sources as well.  For example, you mention that the ministry was written up in High Times ... this is fine.  You can cite any information from the High Times article in the following way: Article Title, High Times magazine, issue & page number, date.  The important thing is that things stated in the article be verifiable (see our policy at WP:Verifiability), and not based upon purely personal knowledge or opinion (see our policy at WP:No original research).  At the moment they are not.  Not having sources increases the likelihood that the article will be deleted. Blueboar (talk) 22:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed the "delete" Message 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on THC Ministry. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110616212307/http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/New-details-in-the-major-marijuana-bust-on-the/HiwkKerHDU62ApTAR0iMrQ.cspx to http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/New-details-in-the-major-marijuana-bust-on-the/HiwkKerHDU62ApTAR0iMrQ.cspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:28, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified