Talk:Veal

message: Under types, free raised veal. This cites no sources and common sense tells me that it is probably no more enviromentally friendly than the other methods. It also cannot possibly be more sustainable unless the calves are allowed to breed before they are slaughtered. For these reasons I have removed this statement. The statement that this type of veal contains less fat also cites no sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.123.29 (talk) 03:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement about free-raised veal has a weak/biassed reference and strikes me as dubious.  If these calves are never (never ever) given anti-biotics, even when they become ill, that would not strike me as a good thing.Ratinabox (talk) 19:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The free-raising method is environmentally friendly and sustainable. 

message: The "controversy" section is a good three times larger than the rest of the article, which seems to push this article towards a negative POV. Is there any reason there is no section about its role in cuisine? — TheKMantalk 00:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a shame. Some people know enough of, and are sick and tired of hearing about, the method in which the meat is procured. I for one would like to see more information on the tendancies the meat has, like on all the other pages on various meats. It states certain cuisines, but apart from the names of countries, we have no more information!! Lady BlahDeBlah 15:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A dictionary I checked included several variations on "slaughter" as definitions of "cull". It looks like it's more of a synonym than a euphemism, so I don't think there's any need to change it. If it said they were, say, "processed into veal" then I'd agree that it was euphemistic, diverting attention from the killing by making the process of doing so vague, but to cull a group of animals invariably means to slaughter them. --Icarus (Hi!) 15:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The controversy section 

message: I grew up on a farm. Culling was what you did when having members of the herd killed due to illness, injury, or genetic inferiority (as to eliminate undesirable traits from a branch of breeding stock). I never heard the word 'cull' used as a euphamism for slaughter.
By contrast, 'slaughter' meant to kill an animal as a prelude to cleaning and butchering the meat.
Each word covered a specific process. 12.190.158.7 (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the inside knowledge! --Icarus (Hi!) 16:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cull v. Slaughter 

message: Hey folks, yes, this article needs it. Tons of things currently in this article are not sources, especially in the Production section. Researching this unsourced information I could only find an accurate source for about 80% of it all. I thus will remove the unsorced content and replaced it with sourced content. I've gathered almost 40 other sources and a good bit of other information to really expand this article to be a great place to learn about veal. The major expansions I'm working on is adding a History section, which this article lacks. Furthermore, I have a strong amount of material to about double the size of the production section that goes into the entire production process: birth, housing, feeding, parts of calf used, and color factors that determine veal value.
Furthermore, I feel the animal welfare section needs to be heavily expanded. I'm working on a good bit of information on it and trying hard to not make it biased. I feel it's about evenly balanced with what I have, so far. It will contain strong points in the veal industry, such as their cooperation to improve facilities by customer request. It'll have a little section on hormone usage, and a sort of timeline on where and when veal crates have been banned. Some of this info was in the Production section, but it really doesn't fit well in there.
Anyways, I'm gonna do the changes to this article in the next few days after I complete my drafts. I'd appreciate some feedback. And my grammar is not 100% correct, so someone will have to run through it to fix any grammar mistakes. It's taken me many hours to gather up all the information and arrange it, to make this a respectable article, but it's worth it. I want to get rid of the warning tags on the article, which is my goal. Thanks NoFlyingCars (talk) 08:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea, I fully agree with you. I'm almost done with an overhaul which organizes everything better, and kills the doubled controversy items, and adds more information to the article, as well as tons of reliable sources. I've been spending a good while researching and so forth and will have the article updated before November 10th, 2009. It will require review. Much thanks. NoFlyingCars (talk) 23:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Overhaul 

message: I re-did, improved, and expanded both the Production and Animal Welfare sections and I believe they are both neutral, as it is. I need more input on this. Do my improvements work? I would like to get these eye-sore banners removed and have a fully neutral article. It looks good in my eyes, how about yours?
Much thanks, NoFlyingCars (talk) 23:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of questionable neutrality banners? 

message: The article has a link into the investigation of the closed slaughterhouse.  It used to be at:
http://www.humanesociety.org/news/news/2009/10/veal_investigation_103009.html
It was changed to just say link broken.  I chnaged to text to say it wasn't available anymore.  If anyone else has a location for where it could be found feel free to put it back.  I checked archive.org's wayback machine, and it wasn't there.
The article probably stand pretty well without the link to the video, and the reference could probably be taken out completely since the link doesn't work anymore.  What do you think?
Vettrock (talk) 16:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The humane society link is broken 

message: Veal calf production as such is not allowed in many Northern European countries, such as in Finland. As in Finland giving feed, drink or other nutrition which is known to be dangerous to the health of the animal to an animal which is being cared for is prohibited, as well as failing to give nutrients the lack of which is known to cause the animal to fall ill  
:Since Veal production does not necessarily require giving harmful nutrients, this assertion needs more explanation beyond the links. Dainamo (talk) 10:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is correct that veal production does not necessarily REQUIRE giving harmful nutrients. However it is common practice in veal production to feed veal cattle with a low-iron milk solution. This could be constructed as 'failing to provide nutrients' as it creates a health deficiency in veal cattle for cosmetic purpose (a whiter meat tone than you would achieve using natural milk to feed the cattle). JLV88 (talk) 08:59, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banned in Finland 

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thread_title: File:Calf hutches.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Please do not use PETA as a source for animal husbandry and livestock production articles. This is the equivilant of using the Neo Nazi party as a source for the holocaust. WP:QUESTIONABLE 
The Nazi/Peta bit is completely over the top - this is not to say PETA is not often over the top in their own way - but bringing in the Nazis and the Holocaust is ridiculous!
On the contrary. Using the *meat industry* is not a reliable source, and is the one equivalent to the Nazis in the holocaust. Asking PETA about factory farming is somewhat like asking Jewish organizations about the holocaust. They represent the victims.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.182.33.5 (talk) 12:25, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  PETA is not a reliable source 

message: I propose that this article be split into an article on "veal(meat)" and an article on "veal calves". The first article will focus on varieties of commercially available meat, meat cuts and the properties of this meat relative to other meats, and what culinary uses they are put to. The article on veal calves will focus on the lives of the animals that provide the veal. Most of this article actually deals with the veal calves and conditions in which they are raised. The best approach would be to rename this article veal calves and remove references to veal meat, such as types of meat and their culinary uses to a new article called veal(meat). In addition, this will allow for the removal of terms such as production of meat when talking about the raising of animals. Such industry terms suggest that meat is produced in a factory as opposed to the reality that meat comes from the slaughter of sentient living animals; meat and calves are not synonymous. Meat production starts with the slaughter of an animal rather than with the raising of an animal. The slaughter and cutup of a calf is thus technically a part of veal(meat). At least one other Wikipedia (Nederlands) has a split article (Kalfsvlees and Vleeskalf) for this currently single page. The veal calves article will also allow a focus on the veal calves away from the page of calves or calf (general) in justness to the large role they play in our society.If there is no opposition to this split I will proceed with split. It will also remove the ambiguity between calf(leg) and calf(cattle)Whatever2009 (talk) 03:33, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to split article 

message: How can anybody read from those two sources that veal is banned in the EU since 2007?
In June 2007 the only thing that happened was that it was declared, by law, what is allowed to be called veal, and what is not.
Below 8 Months of Age is Veal, between 8 till 12 its "Young Bull".
There is no law for a ban on it. Or at least none i could find. If you say there is one, please provide a source that states so! The two sources didn't talk anything about a European wide ban. 
One Source, which i won't even say is reliable, talks about their own stuff, and that it will be illegal in 2007. So the article is older than the planned law itself. Thats not a source for a law that doesn't exist in this way.
The second one is an article from 1995..... do i need to say more? --95.88.224.174 (talk) 00:30, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is no European ban on veal, and there never was. 

message: There are still a lot of advocacy sites (most anti-veal) that are used as references here. That is fine if you are using them solely to say "group X believes Y" , but these are being used to state facts in Wiki's voice. I realize this is a controversial issue, but we still need to use RS. Please evaluate whether links to these groups are appropriate throughout. I have removed some dead links and replaced with citation needed, but many of the existing live links are advocacy sites inappropriate for factual citation without reference to the source and bias of facts.12.11.127.253 (talk) 23:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The HSUS link is broken, and it is referenced several times throughout (It's also the Humane society, not an impartial source, being used to speak in the impartial voice of wiki).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.11.127.253 (talk) 23:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: It looks like the relevant legislation is Council Directive 2008/119/EC which was enacted on 18 December 2008 and came into force on 4 February 2009. Confusingly, Eur-Lex says "since 1st January 2007" without really explaining what this means or where the date comes from - perhaps someone more familiar with Eur-Lex can enlighten us. It also contains provisions that apparently have retroactive effect, specifically Article 3 (imposing requirements on calf housing from 1998) and Article 6 (requiring the Commission to submit a report by 2006). I was under the impression that retroactive law was not allowed in the EU - is this directive just an amendment to an amended version of previously existing law? It does repeal an earlier directive, 91/629/EEC from 1991, which imposes less stringent requirements and prohibits non-conforming housing from being used after 31 December 2007, a full year later than the ban date of January 2007 stated in this article. Hairy Dude (talk) 13:04, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Bloody EU legislation - it's always so complicated.  When it gets like this, I tend to go to reputable news papers on the basis that "verifiability trumps the truth" on WP.  Not a newspaper, but I have found this "Although the veal crate was banned across the EU in January 2007,"  DrChrissy (talk) 16:05, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  EU veal crate ban: dates 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: While I see that there has been a cuisine section added, the sections regarding the controversial nature of veal remain the majority of the article.  This seems excessive, and seems likely to have been driven by people pushing an agenda.  The controversies surrounding veal production are a valid part of the article, but when they start taking the article as a whole over, overshadow any other aspect of the topic, and become the majority of the article, that's excessive.  It would be comparable to editing the article on George Washington so that 75% of the article discussed the fact that he owned slaves, overshadowing his military career, time as POTUS, etc., or if the article on Kevin Spacey were edited to consist of mostly the topic of the accusations of sexual assault that have been levied against him, leaving his acting career as something of an afterthought.
Wikipedia is not a cookbook, but neither should it be a place to litigate fashionable debates.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.151.247 (talk) 15:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial sections taking over the article? 

message: The lead paragraph mentions that veal is more expensive, but this is not touched on in the article. WHY should veal be more expensive(, since it sounds like it ought to be much cheaper to produce)? (The animal is raised to slaughter in a much shorter period of time.) Drsruli (talk) 04:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cost