Talk:Arkaim

message: I don't read Russian well enough, but the "Arkaim - Superobservatory of Ancient Aryans?" link looks like capital bullsh*t -- why are we including it (there is the convention to only include non-English links if they are highly relevant). Similarly, the "Sun city" link. "Бог и человек". What is  this stuff? Is there some New Age craze about the site in Russia? This article is supposed to deal with an archaeological site, not metaphysics :) dab (ᛏ) 07:45, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, there is some craze about the site, so the well-grounded information is hard to finds. There are thousands of interpretations. I will add some info today, but you may clean it up. --Ghirlandajo 07:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Old comments

message: do you have a more precise reference for the 1987 discoverers' statement? I wonder where they thought they could see a 'swastika' (in the floor plan? that needs quite some imagination!). It would be interesting to find a swastika in the Ural steppe, since the symbol is known from Anatolia and Greece, but not from Indo-Iranian territories before ca. the 6th century BC. The site is certainly quite remarkable, and quite possibly Indo-Iranian, but it is a little late for Proto-Indo-Iranian (or "Aryan"), since in the 17th century, the Indo-Aryans were probably already in Afghanistan, if not in the Punjab. I would estimate Proto-Indo-Iranian to 2500-2000, i.e. possibly earliest Sintashta-Petrovka phase dab (ᛏ) 10:55, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This site claims that Arkaim was built as a Swastica City. Its shape is the swastika proper, i.e., the swastika turned sun-wise (whatever this means). It is also claimed that the pottery found near Arkaim features both kinds of swastikas, symbolising the sun (procreation) and the night sun (destruction), respectively. See also this scheme. --Ghirlandajo 11:31, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but that's pure Rorschach inkblot test territory; so there is an internet site calling Arkaim "Swastika City". Sorry, but I simply fail to see as swastika. There should be some serious (scholarly) discussion cited before we go around linking to Swastika City as if that wasn't some mystic crackpot's idea.  I mean, seriously; what's with the image labelled "Сходства орнаментов свастики в древнерусских и индийских народных мотивах"? that's just kookery, throwing in symbols wildly composed from over two millennia (all of them, I surmise, at least 1000 years younger than Arkaim) for suggestive comparison? What's the point? dab (ᛏ) 12:39, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Swastikas on Arkaim pottery are discussed in this scholarly article. The idea of Arkaim as the Swastika City is expounded at great length here. At this site we find a reconstruction of Arkaim. Arkaim is the first in this series of comparisons. See also the first chapter of this author's book on swastika here. The author, however, concludes that Arkaim is patterned after mandala rather than swastika. --Ghirlandajo 13:31, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I am of course prepared to accept the Archaeology and Language article as a notable source. Do they really discuss 'swastikas on Arkaim pottery'? Is there even any pottery at Arkaim? I can see now how they think the thing looks similar to a swastika. However, a swastika doesn't have a ring at the center. The settlement is *round* and has some C4 symmetry, but there the similarity ends. Swastikas on pottery would be quite a different story, of course.  dab (ᛏ) 13:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Not so sure, Arkhaim lies in the urals right across from the Mediterranean which is central russia.  This would put the city near or at the exact location of present day greece.  Also heard the civilization was so advanced we were like the tibetans are to our civilization, technology wise...oh ok i see now, its posi was in present day iran below or near the med. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.42.105 (talk) 22:45, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, are you kidding? Look at a map and measure the distance between Greece, the Urals, and Iran. Eurasia is BIG. Try a real-life round trip between these three places sometime and you'll start to appreciate the orders of magnitude – we're not talking about tens or hundreds, but THOUSANDS of kilometres/miles here ... --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: swastika

message: Here some other pages which I've googled:
"Many interpretations have been suggested in relation to Arkaim - a military fort, proto-city, or a ceremonial and religious center. If we bear in mind that the sets of artifacts excavated were not characteristic of everyday usage, sites such as Arkaim are a combination of administrative and ceremonial centers. Possibly this was a location where about 1,000 to 2,000 people – aristocracy (and craftsmen) gathered periodically to perform rituals." links to an illustrated PDF.
"Finds from these settlements include bronze knives and sickles, arrowheads, and handmade pottery, as well as the famous chariot burials of Sintashta"
www.archaeology.com.
"Recent analyses, including radiocarbon, date the culture approximately from 2000 to 1750 BC.  And its excavators describe it as Middle Bronze Age.  Zdanovich estimates that the ‘Country of Towns’ might only have existed for 150-200 years. The fortified settlements of the Sintashta-Arkaim culture were located approximately 40-70 km apart.  Within the territory around each of these settlements and apparently associated with them are small, unfortified, possibly seasonal, settlements and cemeteries. Zdanovich estimates that approximately 1500 to 2500 people could have lived in Arkaim at one time". - much valuable info that may be added to our article --Ghirlandajo 15:38, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: you have to differentiate between the "Sintashta-Arkaim" (= Sintashta-Petrovka) culture, and the Arkaim site in particular. The culture is dated to 2000-1750 (we even give 2200-1700, culture's don't usually end abruptly). The Arkaim site from all I've seen dates to the mature or late S-P culture. You cannot just quote dates for the entire culture as if they pertained to the settlement. The culture is roughly co-eval to Indo-Iranian separation. The site most likely post-dates it. dab (ᛏ) 07:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More stuff

message: First of all: The basic sentence "Arkaim is attributed to the early Proto-Indo-Iranian of the Sintashta culture, which some scholars believe represents the proto-Indo-Iranians before their split into different groups and migration to Central Asia and from there to Persia and India and other parts of Eurasia." is grammarly nonsense, because redundant.95.90.202.96 (talk) 07:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Can any Indo-European say why an settlement located in the middle of Magyar Öshaza (Urheimat) must be of Indo-Iranian or Bolghar origin in the area where THEY HAVE NEVER EXISTED. Peharps we hear soon that it was of Slavic origin because IT CAN NOT BE OF FINNO UGRIAN ORIGIN who, in fact, lived by that time 2000-1500 BC in that area with southern neighbours of TURKIC ORIGIN, both originated by latest DNA researches from area IN THE MIDDLE OF ASIA including Sajan and Altai highlands and the surrounding areas and East Turkestan (Sinkiang) c. 15.000 years ago.
Why similar buried horses have been excavated in Piandush valley buried with tattoed "Maiden of Altai" aged between 25-30 years, and the red heared "Caucasian" (white race) Mummies at Tarim basin Turpan oases dating by 1800-1400 BC. Why Ud-murts present even greater per centage of red heared people than even Celtic origin Irish and Bretons. The Indo-European conclusion: They were of Celtic origin via Skif / Scythic people which were of Indo-Iranian origin and had connections with the Celtic peoples in Europe. Or they had links with Indus valley Harappa Culture. Or possible they were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel or descendatnts of Noah´s sons, but not in any case of non Indo-European Finno Ugrian or Turkic origin.
Asks one tall, still 186 cm (6ft) long, long skulled, dark brown heared, grey-green eyed, big straight nosed, O Rh+ blooded, not lactose intolerated, non Indo-European male.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.87.13 (talk) 18:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Indo-Iranian? 

message: A user is edit-warring keen to include the opinions of Anatole Klyosov, who we identify as having non-mainstream views in this area. There are no reliable independent sources to show that his views are generally considered relevant, important or correct, therefore we must exclude the ocntent until such sources are found, per WP:NPOV and especially WP:WEIGHT. Guy (Help!) 13:47, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: But this is the important talk page for his specific claim. Please read WP:WEIGHT. How does his opinion meet this part of our policies? Doug Weller (talk) 15:57, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

text: ThanksUser:Altenmann - no problem, I'm sure I've done the same thing myself at some point. Doug Weller (talk) 08:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

text: Thank you. Easy mistake to make, no hard feelings I hope. Guy (Help!) 15:22, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: well, sometimes feeling stupid is a hard one :-) -M.Altenmann >t 06:55, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

text: I've just removed it again. Doug Weller talk 13:12, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable content 

message: I have never seen the term 'pseudo' as overused on wikipedia. It gets prefixed to the title of just about every branch of learning. I can't imagine it is so often used in Britannica.  Can't you find better ways of indicating a subject is not 'mainstream'?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.248.72.120 (talk) 15:16, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: If I search Google books for "pseudoscience" I get 77,000 hits. Complain to their authors. Doug Weller talk 15:25, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Pseudo, Pseudo, Pseudo...

message: As a linguist & a native Hebrew speaker, I was struck by the apparent non-accidental relation of this site's/place's/location's name to the Hebrew masculine plural noun: Arhkhaim, which means: ancient as well as judges (perhpas denoting the common idea to both-that, of the fact that the elders were those who were also those entitled/allowed to serve as judges, as well. Accident? Personally, I don't think so..! Any idea from any other linguists/archaeologists (local/Russian, or not) as per the possible origin/inspiration/association of the name?).
--AK63 (talk) 05:23, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you spell that in Hebrew letters?  The usual Hebrew word for "judges" is Shoftim שופטים. "Arhkhaim" looks like a strange hybrid, a Hebrew ending added on to a Greek stem (Archon, "archaic" etc.) -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Note that such similarities mean NOTHING in linguistics, because too often pure chance. Thus, forget it.95.90.202.96 (talk) 07:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  As a fellow hobby linguist, I would like to point out, that we have no actual knowledge of the name of that place or what name those people thousands years ago had for that place... Arkhaim is modern name - what are the origins of that name we have no idea. I, however would be sceptical that this place has anything to do with Hebrew name, because couple of hundreds years ago noblemen in Europe had fashion to create settlements and name them according to settlements, mentioned in Bible. So, hardly this is the case, as there is no settlement named Arkhaim in Bible. Also, the actual name belongs to place that is 30-50 miles away from actual archeological site, so...92.13.27.115 (talk) 03:02, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arkaim-Very LIKELY Etymology