Talk:Jews/Archive 3

message: User Zestauferov claims on his newly minted Talk:Ethnic Jews and Assimilated Jews (see the related Ger Tzedek): "This page is created in response to the lack of NPOV on the Jew page. Zestauferov 17:18, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Why has user [[User:Zestauferov|Zestauferov]] created TWO redundent pages [[Ethnic Jews]] and [[Assimilated Jews]] as a "response" to the [[Jew]] article?

message: Chagal painting of Abraham and Isaac:
This is far too RELIGIOUSLY-laden a scene from Genesis 22, on the painting, to go with an article about Jews as an ETHNIC group...IZAK 05:01, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Chagal oil painting

message: Is it strictly true to say, as the article now does, "..[T]he modern Israeli legal definition of a Jew excludes those who have joined other religions." I suspect this is untrue on at least one count and perhaps two:
# I believe that (at most) the issue is renouncing Judaism, not joining another religion. If, for example, as a Jew, I join a Buddhist congregation, but do not renounce my status as a Jew (since Buddhism certainly makes no such demand), I do not believe this has any bearing on how I am legally viewed by the State of Israel.
# Further -- and especially because this is an article on Jews as an ethnic group, not as a religion -- how does all this relate to the Israeli Law of Return? After all, the Nazis were not slow to persecute ethnic Jews in Austria who were practicing Roman Catholics. Would Israel not recognize people similarly persecuted today as Jews?
If the answer is that I am wrong on these points, I'd sure appreciate sourcing rather than blind assertion. -- Jmabel 06:07, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we have the question of whether any government can define a "Jew." Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "The modern Israeli definition of a Jew for purposes of Israeli citizenship"? -- Cecropia 06:27, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Israeli legal definition of a Jew

message: ===Who are today's "true" Karaites?===
Recently, user  User:Yoshiah_ap has been adding material about the Karaites as Jews. Each time I insert material describing the non-Jewish practices of Karaite groups, they are marginalized. IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) If you're going to post a message, don't cross-post. I don't like to have to post my replies to multiple places. 2) Give an example of one. 3) Shall I start posting about Non-Jewish practices that the Talmudic Rabbis incorporated? 4) Should I start blabbing about the lies that you have made against Karaites, such as that most Jews do not regarding Karaites as Jewish, when the Israeli Cheif Rabbinate made the ruling that not only we are Jews, but that Rabbinical Jews should marry Karaites in order to assimilate them! Besides my user talk and this page, how many other pages have you posted this to?
*Yoshia: I only contacted you on your user talk and here. Sorry if that has confused you, as I only wanted to get your attention.IZAK 07:08, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

text: What is an NPOV? I know that POV = Point of View. And, I am a Karaite. If you don't believe it check out my webpage.
*Yoshiah: FYI: A "NPOV" on Wikipedia means "Neutral Point of View", thus it is exactly BECAUSE you claim to be a Karaite, that you must NOT expect that people should accept your opinions which may NOT be "neutral" from a detached objective scholarly perspective as you are very EMOTIONALLY over-invested in your subject and therefore you may not be open to other "neutral" opinions on the subject of Karaism... That you have your own private website on Karaism is TOTALLY meaningless and irrelevant, as it is not a requirement, neither a plus nor minus, in fact it means nothing on Wikipedia. IZAK 06:53, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Look before you leap. You also posted this question to my User Talk Page, which already has your answer. I have *NEVER* tried to say that we are a big group today. I said that during what is known as the Golden Age of Karaism, we comprised 40% of Jewry - that's the number given by Rabbinical Sources. And it was back in the middle ages. In the future, please do not put words in my mouth.
*Yoshiah: Yes, I did subsequently see that you claim that there are "30,000" Karaites in Israel. But what does that figure mean exactly? Practicing Karaites? "True believers"? "Religious" or "secular" ones? Would THEY all agree with being classed as "Karaites", and if not why not? IZAK 07:17, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Anan ben David and Karaites as Jews

message: Recently, user  User:Yoshiah_ap has been adding material about the Karaites as Jews. Each time I insert material describing the non-Jewish practices of Karaite groups, they are marginalized. IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) If you're going to post a message, don't cross-post. I don't like to have to post my replies to multiple places. 2) Give an example of one. 3) Shall I start posting about Non-Jewish practices that the Talmudic Rabbis incorporated? 4) Should I start blabbing about the lies that you have made against Karaites, such as that most Jews do not regarding Karaites as Jewish, when the Israeli Cheif Rabbinate made the ruling that not only we are Jews, but that Rabbinical Jews should marry Karaites in order to assimilate them! Besides my user talk and this page, how many other pages have you posted this to?
*Yoshia: I only contacted you on your user talk and here. Sorry if that has confused you, as I only wanted to get your attention.IZAK 07:08, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Who are today's "true" Karaites?

message: JUST WHO ARE THE "KARAITES" that User:Yoshiah_ap is "representing"? IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What is an NPOV? I know that POV = Point of View. And, I am a Karaite. If you don't believe it check out my webpage.
*Yoshiah: FYI: A "NPOV" on Wikipedia means "Neutral Point of View", thus it is exactly BECAUSE you claim to be a Karaite, that you must NOT expect that people should accept your opinions which may NOT be "neutral" from a detached objective scholarly perspective as you are very EMOTIONALLY over-invested in your subject and therefore you may not be open to other "neutral" opinions on the subject of Karaism... That you have your own private website on Karaism is TOTALLY meaningless and irrelevant, as it is not a requirement, neither a plus nor minus, in fact it means nothing on Wikipedia. IZAK 06:53, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Who is [[User:Yoshiah_ap]] representing as he needs to have a NPOV about Karaites

message: Another problem is that User:Yoshiah_ap is making the Karaites sound like a large group. Just how big is the Karaite movement TODAY? Five thousand? Ten thousand? Or what? IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Look before you leap. You also posted this question to my User Talk Page, which already has your answer. I have *NEVER* tried to say that we are a big group today. I said that during what is known as the Golden Age of Karaism, we comprised 40% of Jewry - that's the number given by Rabbinical Sources. And it was back in the middle ages. In the future, please do not put words in my mouth.
*Yoshiah: Yes, I did subsequently see that you claim that there are "30,000" Karaites in Israel. But what does that figure mean exactly? Practicing Karaites? "True believers"? "Religious" or "secular" ones? Would THEY all agree with being classed as "Karaites", and if not why not? IZAK 07:17, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: How many "real" Karaites are alive today: Numbers please!

message: Furthermore User:Yoshiah_ap says that it is incorrect to say that Anan ben David is the founder of Karaism, but when it is said that Anan ben David venerated Islam, it is a "lie" and asks for sources. 
Well (and I hope that User:Yoshiah_ap will not now dash off and change the Anan ben David page) it says on 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anan_ben_David 
"Anan Ben David opposed this move, and along with his followers he proclaimed himself the antiexilarch. This step was construed by the Muslim authorities as rebellion against the authority of the calif, who had formally invested Josiah with the position. Such an act on the part of a dhimmi (follower of a religion tolerated by Islam) in a Muslim state was a capital offense.
When Anan's proclamation of himself as exilarch became known, he was arrested by the authorities one Sunday in 767, and thrown into prison, to be executed on the ensuing Friday, as guilty of high treason. Luckily for Anan, he met in jail a prominent fellow-prisoner, the founder of the Muslim casuistic school of the Hanifites, al-Nu'man ibn Thabit, surnamed Abu Ḥanifah. He gave Ana Ben David advice which saved his life: He should set himself to expound all ambiguous precepts of the Torah in a fashion opposed to the traditional interpretation, and make this principle the foundation of a new religious sect. He must next get his partizans to secure the presence of the calif himself at the trial — his presence not being an unusual thing at the more important prosecutions. Anan was to declare that his religion was quite a different one from that of his brother and of the rabbinical Jews, and that his followers entirely coincided with him in matters of religious doctrine; which was an easy matter for Anan to say, because the majority of them were opposed to the rabbis.
Ben David and his friends complied with this advice, and in the presence of the calif Almansur (754-775) Anan defended himself. Moreover, Anan won for himself the favor of the calif by his deep veneration for Muhammad as the prophet of the Arab peoples, and by the declaration that his new religion, in many ways was similar to Islam.
Anan now devoted himself to the development of his new religion and its new code. His Sefer ha-Mitzvot ("The Book of the Precepts") was published about 770.
Anan Ben David adopted many principles and opinions of other anti-rabbinic forms of Judaism that had previously existed. He took much from the old Sadducees and Essenes, whose remnants still survived, and whose writings—or at least writings ascribed to them—were still in circulation. Thus, for example, these older sects prohibited the burning of any lights and the leaving of one's dwelling on the Sabbath; they also enjoined the actual observation of the new moon for the appointment of festivals, and the holding of the Pentecost festival always on a Sunday. 
From the Isawites and the Yudganites immediately preceding this epoch, he borrowed the recognition and justification of Jesus as the prophet for the followers of Christianity, and of Muhammad for those of Islam; in this way ingratiating himself with professors of those creeds."
IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia says:Anan ben David's true role: He praised Islam and Christianity

message: 1) Anybody can make a wikipedia page. Citing a wikipedia page does not proove anything. I am asking for an actual historical source. I have the four oldest accounts of Anan ben David. 3 of those are Rabbinical, and one of those is from Ya'acov Al-Kirkisani, a famous Karaite Sage.
2) Veneration of Christianity and Islam is nowhere to be found in the four oldest accounts of Anan ben David. Considering the oldest of those four accounts was written over 800 years after the death of Anan, serious questions about the accuracy of it's account and that of later sources must be answered.
Here is what a 12th century Rabbinic account says:
"He (Anan) said, "The religion of my brother employs a calender based upon caculation of the time of the new moon and intercalation of leap years by cycles, whereas mind depends upon actual observation of the new moon and intercalation regulated by the ripening of new grain." Since the king's religion likewise employed the latter method, Anan thus gained his favor and good will."
*Yoshiah: The (Talmudic) rabbis were always careful with their words. They were careful not to "incriminate" themselves in the Middle Ages at a time when Islam and Chritianity were the most powerful doctrines of the times. The words you have given here YOURSELF, prove that the rabbis viewed Anan's arguments as CONNECTING with the Islamic king, as you quote: "Since the king's religion likewise employed the latter method, Anan thus gained his favor and good will." Anyone familiar with the SUBTLE writing style of the ancient rabbis will immediately recognize the fact that the message here is that "Anan and the Islamic king connected", in contradistinction to the fact that "the rabbis and Anan did NOT connect", which is NO praise in the context of the constant, fierce, unyielding condemnation of Karaism, or Ananism, by the rabbis.IZAK 07:48, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebuttal concerning Anan ben David 

message: *The Karaites: Challengers of Rabbinic Authority: 
"...The major rabbinic opponent of the Karaites was Saadia Gaon. He issued articles, letters, and responsa attacking the doctrine of the Karaites, and even declared that they were not Jews...Saadia successfully defended rabbinic authority against the Karaite philosophical invasion...According to Rabbinic law, Karaites are considered heretical Jews; they were treated as Jews in every country they lived in until the eighteenth century, when Russia annexed Poland. Catherine the Great then declared that Karaites were exempt from the double tax for Jews. From that time to the present, European countries, including Nazi Germany, distinguished the Karaites as non-Jews..." IZAK 08:44, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: IZAK, make up your mind. Are you here to speak truthfully about Karaism, or simply to spread false propaganda about Karaism?--Yoshiah ap 02:07, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rabbinical opposition to Anan, the Karaites, and Karaism

message: This dispute centers over a few questions:
1) What, exactly, did Anan do?
* He petitioned the Muslim authorities so that Non-Rabbinic Jews would not have to be accountable to the Rabbinic Laws. Where he lived, they could be prosecuted for not following Rabbinic Halakha.--Yoshiah ap 20:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Summarizing the "dispute" over Karaism

message: Hi Rickyrab (Rickyrab): I have already cited some sources from a web-search above, anyone can read more if they have the time: 
*The issue of "Karaism" vis-a-vis Judaism, and the historicity of Anan ben David in fomenting the "Karaite" movement is not "my" "personal" hobby-horse at all as it is a well-worn path.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Is Karaism [[Judaism]] and does it belong with the article on [[Jew]]?

message: Conventional wisdome has it that there is only one Jewish religion, and that conventional wisdom is accepted throughout the Jewish world. However, what if Karaism is Jewish, yet is distinct enough to be a religion in its own right? That would put Judaism up there with Christianity as being alleged groups of religions (such as Catholicism, Protestantism, Anabaptism, and so forth). 
On the other hand, we Reform Jews do not necessarily follow all Rabbinical laws, but we follow those that make sense to us, after careful study. If the practices of Karaitism/ Karaite Judaism are essentially Jewish, then their lack of allegiance to Rabbinical laws shouldn't take away from Karaites being essentially Jewish. Rickyrab 20:24, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ricky: What about those Karaites who INSIST that they are NOT "Jews" at all, but "Karaites"? How would you deal with that (them)? (Obviously, "Yoshiah" does not fit into this group, as he claims to be a "Jewish Karaite".) This is all part of the confusion surrounding the question of how Judaism views Karaism. IZAK 07:41, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  In spite of common assumptions, is there really more than one Jewish religion? 

message: See:  http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t10/ht110.htm
THE HISTORY OF THE TALMUD: CHAPTER VII: THE EIGHTH CENTURY. THE DOMINION OF THE GAONIM. THE OPPOSITION OF THE KARAITES. THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A SECT OF THAT NAME.
"...As their doctrines, however, were not fixed, and as almost every age the Karaites were split into diverse sects, therefore they could not resist or make headway against the Talmud, whose strength is, to those who rightly understand it, that it has never purposed to make fixed rules, to last for all ages; deliberation and reasoning concerning the Halakhas according to the circumstances, is the principle of the Talmud; and the saying of the Talmud, "even when they say to you of right that it is left, and of left that it is right, thou shalt not swerve from the commandment," shows the opinion of the Talmud, that the practice of the ceremonies and precepts is dependent on the time, place and other circumstances. With this power the Talmud combatted all its enemies, and was victorious."IZAK 07:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: There never was "one" Karaite group in history

message: I had added a link Jay Sand's site about African Jews also contains information about various small Jewish diasporas elsewhere. IZAK removed it, remarking, "These groups are mentioned in the body of the article. They are very minor. Is this now going to become a place where all those claiming to be from the "Ten Lost Tribes" can register as 
Jews=General=) IZAK, did you even examine the site whose link you are deleting? 
It has information on several groups of undoubted ethnic Jews not mentioned in the article (in Sao Tome and Principe and Cape Verde, for example), discusses everything from the (white) Jews of South Africa to the Jews of Morocco and Tunisia; it gives information on several Jewish communites (e.g. Mozambique that have been forced into exile in the last generation); also, as my comment indicates, it extends beyond Africa to give a good rundown on small Jewish comunities in Asia and Latin America. Three or four of the groups covered are, indeed, groups with dubious claims as "lost tribes", and the site makes that clear, but most are simply small, isolated groups of ethnic Jews, some of them still Jewish by religion, others not. I think this is perfectly relevant to this article. I picked it partly because, unlike similar sites about one or another community, it discusses over twenty countries (about half of them in Africa). Unless you can give me an argument that at least indicates that you have actually looked at the material on the site, I see no reason to accept your deletion and will restore the link. So as to avoid an edit war, I'll hold off at least 24 hours to give you time to respond. -- Jmabel 23:19, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Jmabel:Actually, this is related to the above item: [Too many external links] where someone "in the know" advised that ten external links is enough, and we now have many more than that as it is, even after I had trimmed many interesting links. As for the "Jews of Africa etc", yes I looked at your link and I am familiar with some of its contents. If we are now going to "dig up" any entity of people who claim to be Jews then the list will never end as you will find such groups on all continents. Between the "Lost Tribes" and the "Jew envy" (in those cases where Jews were not being killed out, of course) accumulated over thousands of years there are thousands of groups claiming to be connected to the Jews. Then add in those larger groups such as the Pashtuns, Mormons, and even those who want to say that the Japanese are descended from the Jews' lost tribes the sum of it all is that being "Jewish" loses any meaning in any sense. Furthermore, there could be legitimate links tagged on (but shouldn't be, in my opinion as it will then just be a page of "links" to "Jews" then), that could be added about organized conventional communities in all countries with Jews that would fit even in the Halakhic sense, meaning Jews of Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Turkey, Spain, England, Brazil, Paraguay, Mexico, Norway, Italy, Canada, Ukraine, Serbia, Greece, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ....and it will never end if you go about it this way, unless you want to start actual Wiki articles on each of these which is perfectly fine. So we have to work within some sort of bounds, without "falling off the deep end" thereby making this article so broadly-defined that it becomes "meaningless" to be Jewish! IZAK 01:14, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  As far as I can tell, only about 4 of the 20 or so groups on that site are questionable in terms of Halakha. Right now, about half the external links from this article are about Judaism, not about Jewish ethnicity, the ostensible topic of the article. Jay Sand's is precisely a site about Jewish ethnicity, and only secondly about the religion. I would think it is far more relevant than the bulk of the links here, which really belong on the Judaism page. And I have written articles about several of the smaller Jewish (and dubiously Jewish) groups. For whatever it's worth, just sticking within your list, the article discusses the Jews of Morocco, Yemen, Turkey, Brazil, and Mexico. -- Jmabel 06:03, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Zest:Enjoy your latkes (have doubles whilst you're about it)! IZAK 23:21, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: About an external link

message: IZAK, you're watching this page like a peregrine falcon! I have reintroduced the Messiah section in a de-POVd form as it pertains to Jews just as much as Nazi persecutions and antisemitism do. This is not about about the halachic background of the Moshiach (I employ Messiah to avoid confusion), but about a collectively felt common destiny. What are your grounds for in- or exclusion to this article? JFW | T@lk 23:04, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Moshiach"/Messiah

message: Would anyone object to my adding Ludwig Wittgenstein to the list in this article? I realize we are trying not to make this list too long, but Wittgenstein was arguably the single most important figure in 20th century Anglo-American philosophy. He wasn't as public a figure as some philosophers (such as his sometime sponsor Bertrand Russell), but his influence on literally dozens of academic disciplines remains enormous. -- Jmabel 03:03, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous ethnic Jews

message: IZAK, nice work on expanding what I wrote to balance this better. -- Jmabel 19:52, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Maintaining beliefs and practices vs. assimilation and secularization

message: I tried fixing a very confused sentence about the Western Wall. I now have, 'The Romans all but destroyed Jerusalem; only a single "Western Wall" of the Temple remained.' Even this is ambiguous, but I don't know which way to resolve the ambiguity. Do we mean to say (1) all that remained of Jerusalem was the Western Wall or (2) all that remained  of the Temple was the Western Wall? -- Jmabel 21:02, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Western Wall

message: For an article about an ethnicity, where a separate article exists about the religion, it seems to me that there is an awful lot of discussion here about schisms. I can see that the topic should be mentioned, to the extent to which schisms have redefined who is a Jew, but beyond that, this seems like the wrong article for this material.
If people disagree, could you please explain to me why you think this is the right article for this material? -- Jmabel 00:52, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Schisms and all that

message: Shouldn't be on this page.  From Star of David, many Orthodox Jews reject its use.  It's use on this page causes the page to be unbiased. Cellsy
Hi Cellsy, Where do you get your information from? Many Orthodox Jews DECORATE many of the covers of their books and religious objects with the Star of David and are proud of it. If as you note: "it's use on this page causes the page to be unbiased" so what is the problem? IZAK 04:39, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In my (non-Jewish) experience, the Star of David is by far the most common Jewish symbol, and appears to be used extensively by both Orthodox and Reform Jewish groups, as well as by the founders of the state of Israel. This is not imposed on Jews, but used by them out of choice. I have modified the wording accordingly to say that it is the "most common symbol" of Jewish identity. You might want to write a segment in the article about Jewish symbols, and those minority groups who do not use the Star of David, and why. -- The Anome 09:04, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I imagine that the Jewish symbolism article might be the right place for discussions about Jewish symbols... -- The Anome 09:32, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Star of David

message: I removed the link to the christian interpretation of the talmud.  A link to a copy of the talmud would be appropriate but not a biased view by a christian site. - Tεxτurε 15:08, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian slant on talmud link