Talk:Vibrato systems for guitar

message: Someone please tell me who has ever called this a "waggle stick".  Come on.  Please.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.226.78.94 (talk) 18:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What What WHAT?

message: See http://talk.mxtabs.net/index.php?showtopic=1626 for the best reference I could Google up... but I think you're right, the term waggle stick normally describes a particular piece of male anatomy. I guess both the poster to the mxtabs blog I just quoted and the anon who added the term to this article are just being funny. Most and possibly all other Google hits are either similar jokes, or nothing to do with guitars, or Wikipedia mirrors. So I've removed the term from the article, it doesn't seem to belong. Interested in any other views. Andrewa (talk) 13:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Waggle stick

message: Tremolo is a variation in volume, not pitch? That's not how I understand tremolo. This is from the Wikipedia article on "Tremolo":
"Tremolo is a musical term with two meanings:
A rapid repetition of the same note, or an alternation between two or more notes.
A rapid and repetitive variation in pitch for the duration of a note. This is more usually called vibrato."
I consider the above definitions to be accurate. I will deliberate on how best to edit this entry accordingly.
Michael
8:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
April 13, 2005
OK, I decided that it was simplest to delete the second paragraph. I don't think the word "tremolo" is used incorrectly in "tremolo arm." The tremolo arm can be used to bend a half step or greater, which is somewhat analogous to vocal tremolo but not vibrato.
Michael
8:54 A.M. EDT
April 13, 2005
All my sources say that it was an erroneous name given by Leo Fender when he invented the synchronized trem; I've tried to be diplomatic in re-adding, but I don't think there's much dispute. Deltabeignet 17:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an ongoing and natural discussion! IMO the dispute is by people who are either ignorant of guitar culture, or in some cases possibly don't regard the electric guitar as a musical instrument (;-> anyway! See Talk:Vibrato unit, and also Vibrato unit#Vibrato or tremolo?. Andrewa 17:17, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been playing electric guitar for most of my life and consider it an instrument. Yet, calling the vibrato bar/arm a tremolo bar/arm is one of the silliest mistakes a person could perpetuate. A lot of material (guitar magazines, instruction books) correctly call a vibrato bar a vibrato bar. That's because a vibrato bar modulates pitch. If it modulated volume, it would be a tremolo bar, but it doesn't do that. "Whammy bar", even though it's slang, may be the best thing to call the device. Most guitar-like MIDI-controllers let you assign the whammy bar to any MIDI parameter. These could be tremolo arms. But they could also be vibrato arms or low-pass filter arms or resonance arms, etc. "Whammy bar" is generic and there is no ambiguity. If it didn't sound so silly, I would definitely prefer it. In my opinion, this article should be retitled. --Trweiss 00:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Tremolo or vibrato?

message: Floyd Rose, the person, is referenced with a link. the problem is that it is a link to the Floyd Rose, the object, artical.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.212.92.168 (talk) 21:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Floyd Rose, who or what.

message: I clearly recall reading a short article in some guitar magazine in which Floyd Rose himself confirmed that Eddie Van Halen had given him input on the range of the bridge end fine tuners. Van Halen indicated that it would be more practical for him if the fine tuners could accomodate tuning the low E string down a full step to D (or in Eddie's case, Db), enabling him to retune for songs such as Unchained without unlocking the nut. What I can't remember for the life of me is where I read this, so I suppose it's not entirely helpful. Hopefully someone else reading this might remember the article I'm thinking of.
:Please sign your posts on talk pages. Andrewa 02:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: EVH's involvement in Floyd Rose fine tuners

message: I've removed the phrase wrapped around. That's how I've mostly seen Mustang trems rigged, but it's been pointed out to me that in all the Fender catalogs the strings are simply passed through the bar, in a similar fashion to those on a conventional open tailpiece. Possibly wrapping them round Bigsby-fashion gives still more range, but the design seems to have them straight through. Andrewa 02:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mustang trem

message: I think "controversy" is the wrong word. Everyone agrees that Leo got it wrong and this invention is misnamed.  I propose changing the name of this section to "Vibrato or tremolo?", which is what's used on the vibrato unit page. 64.171.68.130 23:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming "controversy"? 

message: This article is very well done, someone should nominate it for WP:FA status. 128.158.145.51 14:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well done 

message: Hi there!  I'm quick-failing this article's Good Article nomination because it lacks any references at all.  All Wikipedia articles need references to reliable sources in order to facilitate verifiability.  See this page for a "how-to" on using citations and references in Wikipedia.  Once that problem has been corrected, please feel free to renominate the article for a full review. If you have any questions, please contact me via my talk page. Cheers! Esrever 02:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA review 

message: I'm adding references to Kevin Shields, because it beggars belief that there has been no mention of him thus far. 85.134.144.6 16:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kevin Shields 

message: The first sentence in the second paragraph reads:
"Since the regular appearance of mechanical tremolo arms in the 1950s, guitarists ranging from the gentle inflections of Chet Atkins to the buoyant effects of surf music aficionados like Duane Eddy to art rock innovator Frank Zappa."
What?  I would edit it myself except that I have no klew what it's trying to say.  Terry Yager (talk) 22:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. You're right, the grammar was a mess. Not altogether happy with the result but it's a start... Andrewa (talk) 10:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would somebody please fix this? 

message: Current article reads
Almost all tremolo arms are based on one or more of Six basic designs:
Almost all tremolo arms are based on one or more of Six basic designs:
* Stetsbar tremolo
* Bigsby vibrato tailpiece
* Fender synchronized tremolo
* Fender floating tremolo
* Floyd Rose locking tremolo
* Kahler Tremolo System
I don't know about the Kahler and Stetsbar units, but the Floyd Rose is an improved Synchronised Tremolo aka strat trem (article reads using a blade edge pivot but otherwise based on the strat trem) just as the current Fender two-point is a (different) improvement, whle the 'stang trem (aka Dynamic Vibrato and not represented on this list) is a completely different design... it shares the floating bridge concept with the floating tremolo but the tailpiece is in many ways more like the Bigsby. I suspect that people have just been adding their favourite (eg Floyd Rose) to the list, and removing the ones they don't like (eg the 'stang). Andrewa (talk) 11:19, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: How many designs?

message: with some comments Andrewa (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Existing list

message: See Stetsbar, a cam-driven system not closely based on any of the traditional designs. Andrewa (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Stetsbar tremolo

message: A very old venerable design, see Bigsby vibrato tailpiece, belongs on the list. Andrewa (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Bigsby vibrato tailpiece

message: AKA strat trem, also belongs on the ist of basic designs. Andrewa (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fender synchronized tremolo

message: The Jag trem, first of the two Fender floating bridge designs. But is the 'stang trem really based in this design? Either the 'stang trem should be on the list in its own right, or this entry should be broadened to cover all floating bridge designs. Andrewa (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fender floating tremolo

message: See Floyd Rose, derived from the 'strat trem and very important as it waa the first mod to the venerated 'strat trem to gain significant acceptance. But no way is it a new basic design. Andrewa (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Floyd Rose locking tremolo

message: See Kahler Tremolo System, another cam-driven system, probably it and the Stetsbar are best seen as the same basic design. Andrewa (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Kahler Tremolo System

message: Watch this space. Andrewa (talk) 19:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Then rationalise

message: Ibanez ZR and Ibanez Edge are both variations of the 'strat trem. The B-Bender is a bit like a trem, in particular like the cam-driven systems, and all are probably best seen as derived from pedal steel guitar technology. Andrewa (talk) 15:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Missed out of the list above

message: It seems to me (I'm a complete ignorant) that Micro-Frets had a locking tremolo system (which would transpose the chord, like a non-locking TransTrem, right?) already in the very early seventies. Examples: http://www.musurgia.com/products.asp?ProductID=4570 . More: http://www.toneshed.com/documents/microfretspages.html
 13:10, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Micro-Frets Calibrato? Locking tremolo before Floyd Rose?

message: Let's have a go at replacing the list with something accurate... Andrewa (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to be bold

message: See http://tunings.pbworks.com/about-Fender-and-names which is my own WP:OR but might help understand what is going on here! Andrewa (talk) 11:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Tremolo and Vibrato

message: It states "there is provision for up to five springs. Only three are fitted here to allow for use of light strings, there being no other adjustment."
Another adjustment is possible - the two screws that connect the spring claw to the body can be screwed in or out to further tweak the angle that the tailpiece sits at.Cameron McCormack (talk) 15:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Loosening these woodscrews is certainly possible, but not adviseable. They'll eventually work loose and pull out of the wood, sooner if they're often adjusted and/or very loose and/or if the trem is regularly used. Andrewa (talk) 15:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description under "Detail of the Strat-style tremolo" Picture 

message: Removed text:
It may also be used outside its socket for different effects, as in Whammy Tapping.
Two problems here. Most important, the Whammy Tapping article was deleted as dubious and unsourced. I don't actually agree with that deletion, there was a ref to a Guitar Player article, not specific enough but I think it was fixable. But we should be consistent.
Less serious but the reason I removed it, it's oversimplified. You can't for example do this with a Bigsby, because there's no socket, the arm is permanently attached. Andrewa (talk) 19:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Whammy tapping

message: In the article currently - "A bevel on the front underside of a steel top plate formed a wide, sharp edge that rested on the top of the guitar body."
"These six screws are often mistakenly assumed to be the pivot point rather than the hidden knife edge."
I don't think this is quite correct.  I've never seen any original or copy that was like this. Even looking at Leo's patent drawing next to the paragraph, the bevelled "knife edge" at the front of the base plate doesn't touch the guitar body normally.  It will possibly touch the body only if the arm is fully depressed.
If talking about the angle formed between the bevel and the bottom of the base plate, that's about 150-160°, not a knife edge.  That edge is usually in contact with the body, but it can come away from the body, depending on the adjustment of the screws and how far down the arm is pressed.  There can be a bit of sliding of base plate on screws (as described in current article) and base plate on body.
Almost all the load is on the six screws, that's where most of the pivoting is going on.  There's a good section about it in Dan Erlewine's book (don't have it with me).  However from his website - http://www.stewmac.com/tsarchive/ts0061.html - "The traditional Strat tremolo, as used by Fender for many years, is a favorite of blues and surf players. It pivots on six mounting screws"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.55.188.183 (talk) 11:54, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synchronised Tremolo "hidden knife edge" 

message: Fender synchronized tremolo
Sketch of Fender synchronized tremolo from 1954 patent application
. . .
The basis of the synchronized tremolo is a rigid assembly that incorporates both the bridge and tailpiece, which pivots on the guitar belly. 
In the original design, this was based on the principle of the 'knife edge' balance.
"Knife edge balance" (in the original 'synchronized') as opposed to what? It continues but only talks about the 'knife edge' mechanism with the 'synchronized'.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.70.110.169 (talk) 02:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fender Synchronised Tremolo and Knife Edge 

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thread_title: File:Floating Tremolo on Fender Jazzmaster.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
* Support as nominator. WP:AT reads in part The title serves to give an indication of what the article is about...; The current title does this poorly. The proposed descriptive title is more accurate, is recognisable, and avoids controversial issues. Andrewa (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Is it tre-MOLO or TREMO-lo?  Can someone add a pronunciation guide?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.168.190.109 (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: well, I actually pronounce it more like trem-a-lo, with the "a" being what my grade school teacher called a "short a". Don't think I've every heard the middle vowel pronounced with an "oh" sound. 69.29.206.62 (talk) 14:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Likewise. The second syllable is an indefinite vowel in Australian English at least. Andrewa (talk) 18:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Ihave removed the following text from the article as it is worded in such a way as to be more appropriate for this talk page --Design (talk) 05:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  edit from article July 2012

message: I was surprised but this edit by an IP with no other contributions seems right on the money. The question now is, how did the error occur? Possible under-the-radar vandalism? Watch this space. Andrewa (talk) 13:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A good edit 

message: I think we should split the current article. As  points out above, the current article does not cover Vibrato systems for guitar at all well. And there's obviously demand for such a broad article, and people willing to write it.
But it seems to me that it's far more important to get a good article on the tremolo arm or whammy bar or whatever we decide to call it. A majority of the solid-body guitars sold both today and historically have one, and possibly even a majority of all electric guitars. Its use is an important part of electric guitar technique, while the other systems are rare and/or historic only. 
Vibrato systems for guitar is a broader topic. I get 7,270 ghitd for it (same for singular or plural), some of which appear to be citogenesis. On the other hand tremolo arm (just one of the possible more specific article names) gets 1.18 million. 
For the article name any of the common names will do! Redirects are cheap. Andrewa (talk) 01:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think that redirects are already in place to this article for common names. I don’t see the point of a split, myself.  “Vibrato system” is an accurate descriptor, as the lever (arm) is the controlling component only.  Regardless of whether the above assertion is correct (that the majority of electric guitars sold have a vibrato system fitted), which I doubt, this article is worthy one. Design (talk) 11:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Yes, the redirects are good. Perhaps if they pointed to sections of the article, that would be better. And I'm still of two minds on this! I actually proposed the RM which gave the article its current name. But the results have not been good. See below. Andrewa (talk) 18:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

text: *  As Design mentions, there are plenty of redirects from common terms in place (here's the list). Looking quickly through the article, I get the sense that it could do with copyediting to tighten up the writing, it seems verbose. If we are considering splitting, then I think one place to start could be to look at which of the main designs are notable enough to have their own articles, meaning that the sections for them get cut down considerably in this article. The current proposal to split is too vague for me to support, I'd prefer to see a proposal with suggestions for what parts would be split out and where they would go. Cheers, Nettrom (talk) 15:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *I get the impression it's a disaster! The trem (call it what you will) is more often used as a string bend device in contemporary playing... using it as a vibrato system still occurs in surf music and other restricted genres, but mainstream since Hendrix has been more spectacular effects, which are no more accurately called vibrato than they are tremolo. Andrewa (talk) 06:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: I don't really see any point to this as it's written, as the information is almost entirely duplicated below. maybe it could be used to illustrate how there are designs involving springs to alter tension with a fulcrum or using flexible metal, or just general overview of how different mechanisms achieve the pitch bending and returning to tune. -MJ (talk) 22:50, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Designs section