Talk:Nick Adams (actor, born 1931)/Archive 2

message: DAKOTA, TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: I HOPE THAT MY SYNOPSIS ON NICK ADAMS ANSWERED ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS. SOMEONE WITH WIKIPEDIA (I ASSUME SHE IS WITH THEM) ERASED IT ALL. SO UNTIL MY MANUSCRIPT GETS PUBLISHED, YOU WILL HAVE TO JUST REMEMBER MY WRITINGS AS BEING THE TRUTH AND HOPEFULLY, ENTERTAINING. TOO BAD ALL THE BICKERING ABOUT NICK IS STILL LEFT HERE. BUT, SOMETIMES PEOPLE LET TITLES AND JOBS GO TO THEIR HEAD. LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH SMALL PEOPLE LIKE THIS.WILLIAM DAKOTA 05:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article dispute notice

message: I have some comments.
* TW continues to misrepresent reversion numbers in his edit summaries. This is incredibly tiresome and boring. Readers are again reminded that TW has been blocked twice in the past for his own violations of 3rr.
* TW can use the article's history to refer to past versions.
* Meanwhile I think this article should reflect the source information as it evolves. Wyss 18:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, note- 141/anon had been trying to spin it with the bit about NA's wife having an affair "with another man"... with the obvious single-agenda inuendo. Wyss 16:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed Status

message: I've gotten to know a bit about our friend Nick Adams. He was a braggard. He habitually made up stories about his Hollywood experiences and associations. He consistently tried to capitalize on his friendship with James Dean. I suspect that someone (like Hadleigh or perhaps even someone before him) either twisted or "read too much into" Adams' endlessly repeated stories about his friendship with James Dean. With both of them dead by 1968, the rumours churned. The more I ponder the provenance of the Sal Mineo interview, the less comfortable I am with it. Hadleigh is widely criticized for making up his interviews, and this Mineo interview does seem to be the "ground zero" source of these rumours. At this point, the question for me is whether or not the article should play a debunking role or not bother to mention it at all, given the threadbare unreliability of the source. Wyss 14:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: CrimeLibrary is similar, some of it's reliable, some isn't- if one can't double or triple verify it from non-derivative sources, it's problematic. Anyway yeah, I've seen discrepencies on the divorce in other sources too. Wyss 17:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm convinced Lambert got his info from stuff derived from the Mineo interview and didn't bother checking it out. Wyss 17:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

text: That's ok with me, I've seen it described as a Pepsi commercial, too, and I can't think of a non gay canon source that mentions it. Wyss 17:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like him, truth be told. Wyss 17:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

text: That does ring truer but it's minor trivia either way. Wyss 18:01, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How did this get started anyway?

message: I've protected this article, as there's lots of reverting going on but no discussion. Try discussing your changes and if you can't convince each other, take it to RfC. Once you've agreed, let me know or post a request for unprotection. --fvw<SMALL>*</SMALL> 23:52, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
The discussion is sufficient to fill a novel, literally. 141's cites have been thoroughly discredited on the Presley talk page, he is trying to edit by attrition. See his contrib history, his only interest is in skewing Google keyword searches to increase traffic to books by David Bret. RfC may be the only way now. Wyss 23:55, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: The following passages should be included in the "Rumors" section:
:In 1972 gay actor Sal Mineo, in response to a leading question, said Adams told him he had an affair with James Dean. However, Adams was well-known in Hollywood for embellishing and inventing stories about his show business experiences and had long tried to capitalize on his association with James Dean. Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays (1996) claims that before his success as an actor Adams was a male prostitute catering to men. This is related to similarly unsupported rumours about James Dean who is claimed to have been involved in this with Adams. However, Hadleigh has been criticized for pasting together interviews from other published sources or even making them up.
:In his 2004 biography Natalie Wood: A Life, Gavin Lambert, who was part of the gay Hollywood circles of the 1950s and 1960s, wrote that Wood's "first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams..." Given Adams' widely known (and sometimes salaried) friendship with Elvis Presley, David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2001) even claims that Adams himself stated that he had an affair with Elvis Presley. However, some readers criticize Bret's book for containing sloppily researched and sometimes invented material, and there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to the actor to support any rumors that Adams was homosexual. Onefortyone 12:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the rumours are too unsupported and the sources cited so far are not credible (see the lengthy discussions above). The only reason it's mentioned in the James Dean article is that the rumours surrounding him are more widespread and someone wrote a direct (although unsupported) account along those lines. Wyss 16:28, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The rumors exist and are supported by several independent sources (books, articles, etc.) You cannot deny this fact. You and Ted Wilkes are the only Wikipedia users who try to suppress the facts provided by these sources. Onefortyone 23:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rumors section 

message: In 1950, after making a commercial, Adams and James Dean seem to have become lovers and worked the streets of Los Angeles as hustlers in the down and out days when both were struggling nobodies. Bill Dakota, Adams's friend and secretary since 1957, was told the story that Nick Adams and James Dean, who stayed with Adams, were once arguing about who would wear the one good pair of jeans they owned to go hustling.
In her autobiography, Rona Barrett says that Nick Adams "had become the companion to a group of salacious homosexuals." 
See Crime Magazine: "Nick Adams: His Hollywood Life and Death", by Peter L. Winkler  
Therefore, I have reinstated the rumors section, as we have now ten independent sources which prove that Adams was gay. Onefortyone 15:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your use of the word proof is mistaken both in terms of scholarship and WP policy. Wyss 02:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  However there is a lot of information that suggests this is the case.  That alone merits some mention in the article.  We have stacks of people on Wikipedia who are referred to as possibly gay or homosexual, with no objections from anybody, and without anything like the discussion that Nick Adams has been subjected to.  JackofOz 03:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The weaknesses of other articles shouldn't support putting gossip in this one. However, the problem here is deeper. 141 has been abusive in his edits to this article (following arbitration he is currently on probabation, barred from editing  celebrity articles and seems to have already violated that probabtion). In the absence of 141's vandalistic behavior, I would have long ago supported (and did support) a qualified rumours section in the article. Sadly, 141 used this as an opportunity in an astonishingly persistent, attrition-based, months long attempt to leverage this article as a basis for seeding the Elvis Presley article with keywords implying EP was gay, apparently for the purpose of promoting a tabloid market book by David Brent. So long as abusive editors like 141 are actively abusing content, a much more wary approach to documentation and balance should be taken. Meanwhile since 141 appears to be violating his probabtion I think he should be blocked as per arbcom's decision. Wyss 03:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think it's a question of gossip per se.  If it is a fact that his sexuality has been questioned/discussed/rumoured about for a very long time, and it is, then that fact merits some mention.  That is simply saying what has actually happened, it doesn't take any position on his sexuality.  We talk about the rumours of Tom Cruise's sexuality, and his legal actions about those rumours, while remaining NPOV.  I wasn't involved in the issue about 141, however should we apply our writing policy differently in a given case just because of such a person?  Seems like we'd become his intellectual hostages.  JackofOz 03:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  Please see my response below. JackofOz 02:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  Isn't Nick Adams dead too?  I don't see the point you're making.  JackofOz 02:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  See my response below JackofOz 02:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Yep, I should have been more direct. There is zero evidence Nick Adams was gay, tabloid inventions don't count as reliable sources, the end. See Liberace for an example of a celebrity who made lifelong denials that he was gay and yet is clearly presented as having been gay by simple NPoV references to court records. Meanwhile, has 141 been blocked yet? Wyss 01:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Nothing makes Adams different. Vandals like 141 would presumably tend to put unsupported, undocumented (as in "no documented evidence") gossip into any celebrity article and abusively, insincerely claim it as NPoV. Meanwhile there is zero, repeat... zero evidence NA was gay. The only reason his name ever comes up is he was friends with Presley the mega-celebriy, and even the most unfounded gossip about mega-celebrities sells books. It has nothing to do with encyclopedic principles (and everything to do with them). Wyss 03:34, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're now debating his sexuality.  I'm not debating, and have never debated, whether he was gay or not.  I neither know nor care.  And I don't support people making unsubstantiated assertions about the subjects of our articles, whether it's about their sexuality or whether they picked their nose.  All I'm saying is that, just like a lot of other people, there have been rumours and speculation about Nick Adams - I've been hearing them for over 20 years.  We generally report those rumours and speculations, even where there is "zero" evidence to support them.  There is no evidence that Neil Patrick Harris is gay.  Some people have reported that they think/believe he is, but he hasn't confirmed these reports, so only NPH knows for sure.  But we report the rumours in his Wikipedia article.  In the case of Lincoln, the "evidence" is extremely circumstantial and very flimsy indeed, and certainly does not prove anything, but it's still all there in his article.  I still don't get what the basic issue with Nick Adams is.  Why is he in some special category?  BTW you confused me with "It has nothing to do with encyclopedic principles (and everything to do with them)". What did you mean?  JackofOz 04:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Read the talk archive for this article. All of this has been repeatedly discussed, including why you've heard the rumour for 20 years (it's been around for 33). Anyway I'm not debating anything but takes like that are what distract these articles from encyclopedic principles. There is zero evidence NA was gay and this is an encyclopedia article, not a full-length bio or a tabloid story. Since there is zero evidence, any mention of it can throw the article into unhelpful and misleading distortion. An encyclopedia has a responsibility to provide balance to its readers based on reliable secondary sources and not to be a gossip data dump or sales platform for Google keyword searches leading to sales opportunities for books by tabloid writer David Brent. All the vandal is really interested in is Elvis Presley. NA is only a bit of groundwork. The vandal should be hard banned but as wonted, uses brilliant tactics and once again has an entirely fresh audience of admins and "experienced" editors most of whom seem too lazy to read a talk archive before jumping in and being manipulated in this constant loop of disruptive vandalism by 141. Anyway I'll say it one last time... there is zero evidence Nick Adams was gay. No letters, no court records, no statements, no nothing. Read that again please. I'm not saying he wasn't gay and I could care less. There's no evidence and the absence of evidence means any discussion of the rumours is strictly tabloid stuff. Wyss 06:45, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Your assertion that the 141's edits to JD have nothing to do with the Presley article (in all caps, no less) is mistaken and suggests you haven't read the talk page archives for Nick Adams and EP. Please do so before making such sweeping statements. Meanwhile, yet another well-meaning editor gets sucked into 141's cyclical vandalism by attrition. I mean, who wants to read a talk page archive anyway? Wyss 08:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Every article and every addition to every article is judged and scrutinized on its own merits. I have examined 141's additions to Memphis Mafia and found that they are not sufficiently sourced - an "official" site that appears to be a backup used as a portfolio for a Web design company and has no more pages... is not really verifiable. I support not adding that information to the Memphis Mafia article. But I examined his proposed James Dean paragraph and found it to be beyond well-sourced, verifiable, factual and clearly relevant to the life of a film star. I even added *another* verifiable source to the list. Dean's potential bisexuality is clearly an issue that deserves to be discussed in an encyclopedia article - it is no "tabloid gossip," it is documented and sourced claims by many people close to the man, including none other than someone who says he was his former lover. 141 has the right to edit articles on Wikipedia. He is not blocked or banned. I will monitor any changes made to Elvis Presley and other articles to ensure that they conform to Wikipedia standards and take necessary action if they violate the terms of his probation. If you feel any of the changes he makes violate those terms, please bring them to my attention or that of another member of the Mentoring Committee assigned to 141's case. We are here to help enforce the ArbCom's rulings and work to make 141 a better editor who will not run afoul of the ArbCom in the future. FCYTravis 09:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Hearsay and unsupported claims about intimate relationships with celebrities, especially mega-celebrities like Dean or Presley (and Nick Adams is of interest to 141 only because of the EP link) aren't usually considered documentation: Money can be made from all sorts of dodgy tabloid books about dead people like EP and JD. Every editor (and that's aside from TW and myself) who has stepped into this and tried to deal with 141 has eventually rejected the totality of his abusive edits. Anyone who bothered to read the talk page would know that. Wyss 09:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The EP link is not verifiable. I agree. That means you work to keep out the EP link, you don't remove every single thing attached to it. I AGREE with you that any Elvis Presley link is not sufficiently sourced and I will work to keep it out of any article. But the remainder of the assertions - including one that claims Adams himself claimed he had an affair with Dean - are encyclopedic if verified. I will work to find sufficient verifiable sources, as will 141, I hope. FCYTravis 09:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Further sources supporting the view that Adams had homosexual leanings

message: Wikipedia has an Official policy with respect to article content that states:
*Wikipedia:Verifiability - "For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable"
*Wikipedia:The perfect article - "reflects expert knowledge; fact-based" 
Verifiability of information from unimpeachable sources is official  policy and is not open to anything less being inserted in an article based on someone's intrepretation. If any contributor to Wikipedia wishes to have official policy changed, there are procedures and I encourage them to do so rather than enter into meaningless and endless debate on article Talk pages. The policy was created to avoid exactly that. This Wikipedia:Verifiability requirement was reinforced by the Arbitration Committee's unanimous ruling against Oneforty with the Committee's further reminder that: "In the case of unusual or scandalous assertions this becomes even more important, see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence"
- Ted Wilkes 15:27, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All allegations are not equal, all sources are not equal, see my note below about your mistaken notions concerning the need for rebuttals. Wyss 00:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: You are a damned jerk. Better not to say such things around here; people with thin skins might get offended. Why are you doubting everything I say? WP:V "Hoary" is not my real name and I claim no credentials. If I did claim any, you should be very wary of them. But if I wanted to make you believe my claim that, say, I was XYZ, a famous biographer of Nick Adams, I could link here to some page within a site that indubitably was run by XYZ, a page on which I stated that I edited on WP as "Hoary". I hate computers and most of the Internet and definitely talk programs, where jerks like you show up. That's interesting. I too hated talk programs (of the celebrity interview kind) the last time I bothered to watch any, which was years ago. (One reason is that celebrity gossip and revelations don't interest me.) I hate most of the internet and I'm getting pretty sick of computers too. -- Hoary 04:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumors, gossip or speculation contravene official Wikipedia policy

message: The following passage may be included in the Rumors section:
:In his book, Hollywood Gays, Boze Hadleigh writes that Nick Adams may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." Onefortyone 21:15, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: (Natalie) Wood was not the only one to think Elvis and the guys [i.e. the men from the Memphis Mafia] might be homosexual, especially since Elvis often wore pancake makeup and mascara offstage to accentuate his brooding intensity, a la Tony Curtis and Rudolph Valentino, his favorite movie actors. There were also rumors that Nick Adams swung both ways, just as there had been about Adams’s good pal (and Elvis’s idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on. But Elvis was frightened of homosexuals; the Colonel had told him to be on the lookout for them in Hollywood. He was even scared of Lizabeth Scott, the icy blonde who played romantic scenes with him in 1957’s Loving You, since Confidential magazine had recently outed her as a lesbian with a busy little black book. (See )
This quote clearly shows that there were indeed rumors during the 1950s concerning Nick Adams's affair with Elvis Presley. It also supports the other claims by Dee Presley, David Bret and Earl Greenwood that Elvis had a sexual relationship with Adams. Perhaps the deleted passages relating to these claims may be reinstated. Onefortyone 18:39, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumors section

message: "In 1972 gay actor Sal Mineo said Adams told him he had an affair with James Dean. However, Adams was well-known in Hollywood for embellishing and inventing stories about his show business experiences and had long tried to capitalize on his association with James Dean. Reputed Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick also called Adams a "Hollywood hustler." Bill Dakota, Adams's friend and secretary since 1957, was told the story that Adams and Dean, who stayed with Adams, were once arguing about who would wear the one good pair of jeans they owned to go hustling. In his 2004 biography Natalie Wood: A Life, Gavin Lambert, who was part of the gay Hollywood circles of the 1950s and 1960s, wrote that Wood's "first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams." In her autobiography, Rona Barrett says that Adams "had become the companion to a group of salacious homosexuals." However, there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to the actor to support any assertions that Adams was homosexual. "
I removed this text because it is unacceptable referencing and has also been deliberately manipulated . 
*Wikipedia:Verifiability#Dubious sources states "For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable"
*Wikipedia:The perfect article states "reflects expert knowledge; fact-based"
Note this edit on this Talk page of 19:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then by all means, add that segment to it. I added your Cybersleuths source to the page - doing your work for you. Kelly is a source which refutes the other claims and adds to the debate. Hence, a balanced and NPOV telling of the controversy. Let me reiterate - on Wikipedia, we REPORT on controversy. We do not get to decide which side is right or wrong. Whether I believe Nick Adams was gay or not - heck, I don't even know. What I do know is that plenty of material has been produced which reports that there is something of a debate over his sexuality. Given that he lived in a spectacularly closeted and repressed time, clearly there aren't going to be any statements from him one way or another - and even if he had made such a statement, the fact that today his sexuality is a subject of debate would be encyclopedic. The fact of the matter is, some biographers think he was straight and some think he was gay. We report. You decide. FCYTravis 23:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I removed the following text from the Nick Adams article

message: User:Ted Wilkes has returned to his old tactic of denigrating all sources which are not in line with his personal view. Here are the facts:
*The Crime Magazine article has been written by an expert on Nick Adams.
*Talking about James Dean and Nick Adams, Boze Hadleigh cites Sal Mineo: "Nick told me they had a big affair." This is a clear statement published in a book entitled Conversations with my Elders. See 
*The Libary Journal clearly says,  as a summary, about Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays: "Still, the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." It is very interesting that Ted Wilkes did not cite this passage.
*See also this commentary on the same book: "A series of 10 interviews with dramatic actors, romantic heros, comedians, and performers, three of whom died of AIDS; all prominent in the Hollywood/entertainment scene. The interviews are by turns frank, and depending on the comfort level of the interviewee, evasive and suggestive. Prominent features of the interviews include Hollywood's various constructions of masculinity, efforts to mask gay realities, studio response to homosexuality, and discussion of gay relationships. Many interviews include commentary on Hollywood figures not themselves in this collection. Each interview is preceded by a biographical sketch including relationship information and usually comments by friends and acquaintances. Index to persons mentioned in the interviews concludes the work." (Gays and Lesbians: Reference and Bibliographical Resources Annotated")
*Ted Wilkes confirms that "In recent years, hustler may have been used by the Gay male community to refer to a male prostitute." If Peter Guralnick says that twenty-five-year-old Nick Adams was a "Hollywood hustler" in a book published in 1994 (see ), he certainly refers to a male prostitute. Other sources also confirm that this was the case. 
*Ted Wilkes continues to disparage reputed author and Hollywood chronicler Gavin Lambert who has clearly stated that Natalie Wood's first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams. 
*Ted Wilkes tries to denigrate reputed gossip columnist and Hollywood expert Rona Barrett who also confirms that Nick Adams was gay. 
*In his book, The Boy who would be King: An Intimate Portrait of Elvis Presley by his Cousin (1990), Earl Greenwood says that Elvis and Nick Adams had "intimacies" and that Nick Adams had wanted "too much." See  
*In a recent Playboy article, Byron Raphael and reputed author and Elvis expert Alanna Nash write: "There were also rumors that Nick Adams swung both ways, just as there had been about Adams’s good pal (and Elvis’s idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on." See . Onefortyone 21:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Passages deleted by Ted Wilkes and reinstated by FCYTravis

message: Ted Wilkes does not say the truth. He accuses me of being a deceiver (which is surely a personal attack) and falsely claims that 
:User:Onefortyone was fully aware of ALL this. Note how he quotes John Gilmore (writer) here at both Talk:James Dean and in the James Dean article but on Nick Adams deliberately and with the intent to deceive, makes no mention of what Gilmore said about Nick Adams and Dean. 
I have never before visited the John Gilmore website. The fact is that on 15 August 2005 Ted Wilkes himself included John Gilmore's statement in the James Dean article. See  and . A few minutes later, this passage was rewritten by Wyss. See . Months later, I only reinstated the Sexuality paragraph including the Gilmore passage written by Ted Wilkes and Wyss. My quotes on the Talk:James Dean page are from Val Holley, James Dean: The Biography. Onefortyone 00:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: False accusation

message: I'm the one who created and wrote the Gilmore article. The John Gilmore quote was already discussed and you were fully aware of it before. Nonetheless, I 'never said you originated the Gilmore quote, I said you used it and deliberately omitted the part about Nick Adams when you did. - Ted Wilkes 14:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be noted that Ted Wilkes calls me "a convicted liar". This is certainly a personal attack. Onefortyone 23:11, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not telling the truth, Ted. I did not deliberately omit a part about Nick Adams. I only reinstated a passage that was originally written by you on the James Dean page. This was not related to Nick Adams. Onefortyone 23:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It's certainly not. Onefortyone has not been convicted of any crime. An ArbCom ruling is not a finding of fact in a court of law. For someone who has such a fetish for libel laws, you, of all people, should know that. I'd suggest you remove the "convicted" bit. FCYTravis 23:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: True accusation against [[User:Onefortyone]], a [[lie|liar]] on [[Wikipedia:Probation]]

message: The following quotes from the Modern Screen article (which seems to be one of the primary "peer-reviewed" sources for Ted Wilkes) indicate that Natalie Wood's "relationships" with men (several of them gay, such as Nicholas Ray and Raymond Burr) during the 1950s were just fun or publicity ploys in order to attract attention:
:...she's rowdy with fellow teenagers at a beach party. And she's always alive, friendly, interested.
: "What I like is to go out, just me and six men!" The more men, the more attention, the more she loves it. If Elvis Presley and Nick Adams are both with her an afternoon, that's twice as good as if she were alone with either. And as far as what you read about her being serious with either, well, serious is a word for later. Or maybe serious is too painful to think about. 
:...with Nick Adams, she's more an equal, and their relationship has been mostly for fun. He calls her Chort, which means little devil in Ukrainian. They're both of Ukrainian descent. They share a tendency toward moodiness and unpredictability. They've read Thomas Wolfe together; they've given joint interviews to MODERN SCREEN in which they admitted they adored each other; they even came terribly close to getting married.
:It happened in Las Vegas. The two of them and another couple had driven out to the desert, seen Judy Garland's show at the NEW FRONTIED, posed for innumerable publicity photographs - that was the real reason for the trip - and swam, danced, laughed.
:And if you have any doubts that Natalie's a girl who is all things to all men, listen to Nick Adams: "I don't know any man who has ever had a bad word to say about Natalie," he'll tell you. "She's like a little puppy, just enjoying life and dating so much that you get a life out of hearing her tell about it. You laugh a lot when you go out with Natalie -- and you laugh with her, not at her." If, for a heartbeat, in Las Vegas, Nick Adams had hoped the prankish puppy might suddenly grow up and be all his, he's no longer brooding about it. Right now, both Nick and Natalie are inclined to deny the whole Las Vegas episode. 
:An acquaintance, trying to sum up Natalie's attraction, the charm which keeps dates interested, put it this way, "She's a ham. She loves to act, off-screen as well as on. So she relishes playing different roles with different men. But she doesn't just act being different types -- she feels it. She is different with different men. One night she's a bundle of fun with Nick Adams, the next night she's being elegant and sophisticated with Nick Ray or Raymond Burr."
So much for the reliability of these stories. It is very interesting that Ted Wilkes, who accepts this article as a reliable source, continues to denigrate the books by Boze Hadleigh, an expert on Hollywood's gay scene. The Library Journal clearly states, as a summary, about Boze Hadleigh's book, Hollywood Gays: "Still, the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." Onefortyone 23:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Modern Screen'' article

message: * Does anyone notice (including my good friend Onefortyone) that the sexuality section represents about half of the text content comprising this article?
* Given that it contains published but wholly unsupported gossip for which there is no documented evidence in fact, does this represent reasonable encyclopedic balance, or does it have potential to mislead readers?
* I have zero problem with this material being noted in a rumours/sexuality section (I was the one who first implemented this solution, many months ago).
* I propose that Onefortyone and I, without urgence or any rush, think about how this section can be shortened to a more reasonable length without losing any significant information. We could even come up with a draft here on the talk page and then transfer it into the article once an informal consensus was assured.
* The disputed tag could be removed if the section were cleaned up and made concise.
* I do appreciate the work everyone has done to make this section balanced and accurate, my only concern is that it's too long.
* Comments are appreciated. If for whatever reason, it's not possible to tidy up the length at this time, that's ok. Thanks for reading this. Wyss 15:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More on the sexuality section

message: His sexuality is a matter of debate. Long after his death, some biographers and writers claimed Adams may have been gay or bisexual and may have had relationships with actor James Dean and singer Elvis Presley. In his 1986 gossip book Conversations With My Elders, chronicler of gay Hollywood Boze Hadleigh said that actor Sal Mineo told him in 1972: "I didn't hear it from Jimmy (James Dean), who was sort of awesome to me when we did Rebel. But Nick told me they had a big affair." In his 2004 biography Natalie Wood: A Life, biographer, screenwriter and Hollywood chronicler Gavin Lambert, who was a member of the gay Hollywood circles of the 1950s and 1960s, wrote in passing (p. 199) that Wood's "first studio-arranged date with a gay or bisexual actor had been with Nick Adams." Some authors such as Boze Hadleigh and Peter Guralnick called Adams a Hollywood hustler (although Adams called himself a pool hustler). In her autobiography Miss Rona (1974), Rona Barrett says Adams "had become the companion to a group of salacious homosexuals." According to Byron Raphael and reputed Elvis biographer Alanna Nash, "There were ... rumors that Nick Adams swung both ways, just as there had been about Adams’s good pal (and Elvis’s idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on." Similar claims about the close relationship between Presley and Adams can be found in books by Earl Greenwood and David Bret. 
However, Adams was known in Hollywood for embellishing and inventing stories about his show business experiences and had long tried to capitalize on his associations with James Dean and Elvis Presley. In his brief online biography of Adams, journalist Bill Kelly wrote, "(Adams) became James Dean's closest pal, although Nick was straight and Dean was bisexual." Kelly also stated that Adams wrote in his diary that he taught actress Natalie Wood the art of love making. Furthermore, there are no court documents or personal letters from Adams or statements by alleged male lovers which undoubtedly prove that Adams was gay. On the other hand, being outed as homosexual at that time could instantly end an actor's career. Thus most gay and lesbian actors in America were forced to keep their sexuality a secret and lead double lives. Onefortyone 14:50, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nick Adams' sexuality

message: Note what convicted liar Onefortyone says on this talk page with a large bold heading: "Peter Guralnick confirms that Adams was a Hollywood hustler" and put it in the Wikipedia Encyclopedia biography. "Hustler" was never used by Peter Guralnick in reference to Nick Adams sexuality as Onefortyone fraudulently inserted in the article. Nowhere in his book did Guralnick ever refer to Nick Adams sexuality. Guralnick's statement, in "Last Train to Memphis"  was deliberately quoted out of context by Onefortyone in order to deceive, states on page 328: "On his second day on the set he met twenty-five-year-old Nick Adams, a Hollywood "hustler" who had originally brazened his way into the cast of Mister Roberts two years before by doing impressions of the ... "  On page 410 Guralnick says that Nack Adams close friend Russ Tamblyn saw Nick as something of a "hustler." – In the same book on page 328, Guralnick also refers to famous Disc Jockey Bill Randle  as a "hustler." 
:Would you please stop calling me a "convicted liar", as this is certainly a personal attack. Guralnick clearly says that Nick Adams was a "Hollywood hustler." In his book Hollywood Gays, author Boze Hadleigh writes that the diminutive yet reputedly well-hung actor may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." Adams expert Peter L. Winkler says that "Nick Adams and James Dean may have become lovers and worked the streets of Los Angeles as hustlers in the down and out days when both were struggling nobodies." Other sources also state that Adams worked, with his friend James Dean, as a street hustler when he first arrived in Hollywood. See, for instance, . Onefortyone 00:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In her recent Playboy article, Alanna Nash clearly says that "[Natalie] Wood was not the only one to think Elvis and the guys might be homosexual, especially since Elvis often wore pancake makeup and mascara offstage to accentuate his brooding intensity, a la Tony Curtis and Rudolph Valentino, his favorite movie actors. There were also rumors that Nick Adams swung both ways, just as there had been about Adams’s good pal (and Elvis’s idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on." Onefortyone 00:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: To put this all in context, readers are strongly urged to read 141's first edit ever to this article on June 1 2005. Readers will note that every substantive assertion it contains about NA (never mind his original characterisation of Natalie Wood, which he quickly backed down from) has been shown on these talk pages to either be wholly unsupported or outright fabrication. Wyss 17:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Wyss, you are wrong. The information I use for my contributions comes from Web pages and published articles and books. For lists of famous gay people including Nick Adams, see   or  . Gavin Lambert, in his book, Natalie Wood: A Life, says that Natalie Wood dated many gay men in Hollywood, including Nick Adams. When Lambert was asked "why did Wood have so many gay men in her life?" he replied: "I have two answers to that. One is specific to her, and the other is specific to a lot of actresses. Actresses like gay men because they know there's going to be no problem of them making a pass, and therefore they feel that they are not being used and all that stuff." See . James Dean claimed to have worked, with his friend Nick Adams, as a street hustler when he first arrived in Hollywood. See . Onefortyone 00:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey 141, I do feel bad that I always have to contradict you and I'm sorry about that. I know you'll likely never concede the notion that according to WP written policy there is a docking difference between "published articles and books" and verifiable secondary and primary sources, never mind the spin you tend to put on every sentence you write (I refer to your unceasing distortion of the term "hustler" as it was applied to NA during his life- he was a bullshit artist, which for actors is considered a legitimate if tacky way to get work, not a male prostitute). There is zero documented evidence to support any of your claims, only tabloid hearsay and gossip which are not acceptable sources under WP policy. Maybe you truly believe this shite, but it's wholly unsupported. The only reason there has been any open-mindedness at all about discussing this stuff is that Adams was so relatively ignored and obscure that there isn't that much reliable source material available on him, and what exists is wontedly conflated with codswallop gossip. However, the more verifiable information I see on this guy, the more I'm forced to utterly discount your assertions. Moreover, although I'm sure they had their marital spats, even those look much less serious than what the gossip mongers have been churning out in the years since his death (all to link him with tabloid book-selling, wholly unsupported and often fabricated gossip about Elvis Presley and James Dean, two long-dead and very famous celebs by the bye). Wyss 00:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Readers are also invited to read this current exchange over at the Village Pump about the use of tabloid sources in WP articles. Note that the consensus of remarks is that tabloid sources are unreliable and unacceptable. Wyss 18:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: This page at IMDB states that Nugent was married to Adams until his death. Wyss 18:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Fabrications by Onefortyone while on probation

message: Ted Wilkes and Wyss have repeatedly insisted on an unrealistic standard with respect to negative information regarding celebrities that is current in popular culture, gossip and rumor Talk:James Dean#Removal of "Rumors" section  and Talk:Nick Adams#Rumors, gossip or speculation contravene official Wikipedia policy   
:Support:
:# Fred Bauder 14:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: # ➥the Epopt 14:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

text: # James F. (talk) 22:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: # Jayjg (talk) 19:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: # Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: # Raul654 19:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

text: #Neutralitytalk 21:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I must agree, 141 is again editing by attrition with the same flawed/fabricated sources and cites (even when observed under an assumption of good faith). Wyss 14:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ted Wilkes and Wyss's view of the standard of editing

message: 141 reminded me of a fundamental error made by arbcomm in their handling of this article and the RfA. I never edited the article for the purpose of removing "negative" or "damaging" or "unflattering" information about him. Truth be told, when I first stumbled across 141's edits, I thought something along the lines of... "Wow. I didn't know Nick Adams was gay. I guess it makes sense, though." If 141's edits had been written in an encyclopedic tone I would have likely accepted them blindly as true but of course the writing was horrid ("biggest piece in town," etc) so the first thing I did was clean it up, leaving the assertion intact. The article was no more than a stub though and as I looked into the details more, hoping to expand it, I quickly realized the sources were unreliable.
I've edited lots of articles about GLBT celebrities and am swayed but by the documented record. There are cases where I've added new information about someone being gay or lesbian or whatever. As far as I can recall, 141's edits are the only edits along these lines that I've ever disputed.
I only care about accuracy and following the documented record and am indifferent to moral judgements or making a case for someone's "image" based on their personal life. Editors who know a bit more about me understand where I'm coming from when I say this. I could give a luzz if NA was gay. I do care very much, however, that this article has been used as a platform for fabricated gossip targeted at selling tabloid cruft about Elvis Presley and James Dean (and I don't care what they did in bed or whatever either, only that WP follow scholarly methodology in mentioning whatever it was they did). 141 can twist my words, careless admins can misinterpret them, but my contribution history speaks for itself. Provide viable, verifiable sources (not any "published" drek one can find) and I'm all for including their content in the article.
One is mistaken to think that scholarly methodologies cannot be applied to biographies in the social sciences. Information is either verifiable or it's not (in this case, statements or a widely documented and verifiable pattern of behaviour by the subject, verifiable interviews, published letters, verifiable statements by credible witnesses and so on, which 141 has never provided). WP has dozens if not hundreds of articles about GLBT people which are totally uncontested, because the sources aren't contested and the material is presented in a balanced way using encyclopedic language. Wyss 16:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (Oops, I have disputed one other editor's assertion of this kind and my view to exclude the cited source was accepted by the consensus. I'll provide details if asked.) Wyss 17:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Negative information?

message: The sexuality section of the article is far too long and violates WP Policy Wikipedia:NPOV, undue weight. This is aggravated by the reality that the published gossip sources cited there have zero support in the documented record, rendering the entire topic second and third person hearsay sourced to unreliable tabloid publications. It is also poorly written, which makes it somewhat incoherent. Moreover, the RfA on this article, which was premised upon and resolved through false (albeit presumably good faith) presumptions, has failed to bring this article into conformance with WP policies pertaining to NPoV, scholarly sourcing and encyclopedic tone, structure and balance. The issues are sufficiently severe (and have so distorted the main text of the article with citations and references intended as side-arguments) that the entire entry has become at least somewhat misleading and at variance with the documented record. I have accordingly placed a global dispute tag on the article pending resolution of the failed RfA and my proposal to fix it (along with any other proposals which may come up). Wyss 18:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPoV issue, failure of RfA

message: Dude, Steve Ryfle's book ain't no tabloid source.  It's considered the best researched book on the history of Godzilla ever written in the West.  He did interviews with literally hundreds of people, including, yes, Adams's daughter.  Do you actually want me to go get the exact quote? Thanos6 06:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude?! Anyway, given the misinformation that has piled up on Mr Adams since his death, sourcing requirements here need to be followed. His daughter's quote should be presented verbatim and it needs to be verifiable. I'm not too comfortable with a book on the history of Godzilla making a passing assertion about the circumstances of NA's death, however if you provide the quote and the exact book title I'm ok with putting it in the article with a reference in the text as to where it came from. Thanks for your understanding. Wyss 18:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I should add that Tip Roeder was an ex LA policeman and his violent shooting death years later was the result of a dispute unrelated to his former friend and client Nick Adams. Some websites do have a go at innuendo about this but it's wholly unsubstantiated and this isn't the place for it. Wyss 20:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The quotation comes directly from Barrett's autobiography. That's where I, Peter L. Winkler, read it before quoting it in my article.
*3) "According to Byron Raphael and reputed Elvis biographer Alanna Nash, "There were ... rumors that Nick Adams swung both ways, just as there had been about Adams’s good pal (and Elvis’s idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on." Similar claims about the close relationship between Presley and Adams can be found in a book by Earl Greenwood."
** This is deliberately taken out of context to fit Onefortyone's agenda for which he is already on probation. The full article shows the opposite of this. Neither Nash or Byron Raphael ever at any time claimed Presly or Adams was gay. 
*4) Furthermore, at the time of his divorce in 1965, laws in existence at the time meant that homosexuality was admissible grounds in court for denying custody of children.
**Irrelevant - Nick and Carole Adams were never divorced. 
*5)"Long after his death, some biographers and writers claimed Adams may have been gay or bisexual and may have had relationships with actor James Dean and singer Elvis Presley."
** Who asserted that about Presley? The only one is David Bret and his tabloid book did so without any facts of any nature and Bret has been ruled as a non-credible source for Wikipedia. What exact sources ever said Adams and James Dean had a sexual relationship? Mutual friend John Gilmore who was there at the time says his friend James Dean avoided Adams and in his book Gilmore says Adams took advantage of Dean's death to gain publicity for himself. And, Gilmore never once, anywhere, mentions Adams as being gay. 
- Ted Wilkes 19:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: A traceroute puts the server for crimemagazine.com somewhere in the greater Boston MA USA area, so relative to WP's servers I don't think it qualifies for the term offshore. Moreover, Pat O'Connor is listed as the site's editor and although the site is clearly the work of a small business or publishing project, it's not a personal website. Reliability is another tale, but the reasons you give, Ted Wilkes, for deleting the link appear to be incorrect. Wyss 20:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Tabloid source?" 

message: I have now included a shorter version of the Sexuality section which is based on published sources. It omits such parts of the text which are irrelevant. Let's discuss this version. It should be noted that, on 4 February, Wyss agreed to insert this text as a replacement. See . Onefortyone 04:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've learned more about the topic since then. I think the entire sexuality section is wholly unsupported and unverifiable, as discussed above. All the assertions and rumours stem from the single supposed "interview" with Mineo which is unverifiable (especially given the author's reputation). Wyss 07:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New version of the Sexuality section

message: I am happy that there are now some clarifying statements by Peter L. Winkler. See  and . Thank you very much, Mr Winkler. Onefortyone 22:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While interesting, Mr Winkler's posts don't add any new information or verifiable sources to this shambles of an article. Thank you very much, Mr 141. Wyss 00:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Wyss, Mr Winkler has indeed added some new information to this talk page. He says that there were articles on the custody battle in two serious newspapers, the Los Angeles Times and Los Angeles Herald Examiner. It is to be hoped that he can provide some direct quotes from these reliable sources. Onefortyone 00:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thank you for your statements, Mr Winkler

message: Here is the first issue of the Hollywood Star Magazine (1979). The cover headline says, "Elvis was bisexual: Nick Adams was his lover." Onefortyone 20:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are lots of photographs which prove how intimate their relationship was. This photograph shows Elvis laying his arm around Nick Adams's shoulders. This one is a private snapshot of the two men riding together on a motorcycle. In this photograph they are sitting together in a car. Onefortyone 16:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't call me a liar, Ted, as this is a personal attack! The source proves that there were rumours as early as during the 1970s about Elvis's alleged bisexuality. In their 2005 Playboy magazine article, Byron Raphael and Alanna Nash also mention these early rumors. They say that Natalie Wood (1938-1981) "was not the only one to think Elvis and the guys [from the Memphis Mafia] might be homosexual, especially since Elvis often wore pancake makeup and mascara offstage to accentuate his brooding intensity, a la Tony Curtis and Rudolph Valentino, his favorite movie actors. There were also rumors that Nick Adams swung both ways, just as there had been about Adams’s good pal (and Elvis’s idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on." This means that they are talking about rumors that arose during the lifetime of Adams and Elvis. Onefortyone 23:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For more details concerning the topic, see this statement by Bill Dakota, former editor of the Hollywood Star magazine, which proves that Adams had homosexual leanings. Onefortyone 17:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: According to [Lawrence J.] Quirk, Connolly would put the make on the most prominent young actors, including Robert Francis, Guy Madison, Anthony Perkins, Nick Adams, and James Dean. Quirk said there was rampant gossip at gay parties regarding not only Connolly's escapades with these actors but also a noteworthy pornography collection he would display to those he favored.  
Lawrence J. Quirk is the author of more than thirty Hollywood biographies and certainly a reliable source. I have included a reference to Quirk's statement about Connolly in the article. Onefortyone 20:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Interestingly, there is a new book by William Bast, James Dean's close friend, roommate, and first biographer [James Dean: a biography, 1956], who knew Dean throughout the last five years of his short life. This author has recently published an unexpurgated version of his first book, in which he now reveals that he and Dean were sexually involved, and describes the difficult circumstances of their involvement [Surviving James Dean, 2006]. In this book Bast also deals frankly with some of Dean's other homosexual involvements. I have not yet seen a copy of the book, but it could well be that the author also mentions Dean's relationship with Nick Adams. Onefortyone 17:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting sources concerning Nick Adams's sexuality

message: Most sources say that Nick Adams' father was a Ukrainian coal miner not Lithuanian. The two sources that were used to source that part in this article were not reliable - nndb and a Cyberslueths, community website are not reputable or checked sources.  This source from a Crime Magazine quotes Adams as telling Jack Palance that he too was Ukrainian from Pennsylvania..
Adams also says that he is Polish in this article.
He might be Lithuanian mixed in there too but this article should be adjusted to reflect that his father was Ukrainian. Also the Ukainian-American organization has listed him as a Ukrainian-American.--IsisTheQueen 23:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity Issue 

message: The first paragraph calls him a writer - yet his only credit under that section is as creator of a TV series, and the text makes it clear he wrote nothing.  I will remove the reference to writer. -- Beardo 14:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Writer 

message: I removed the following paragraph from the Sexuality section:
Significantly, Adams regularly dated actresses with whom he made movies, but in most cases seems to have had no sexual interest in them, as Olive Sturgess relates: "When Nick and I went out, it was a casual thing – no great love or anything like that. ... I thought he was very troubled ... You could feel he was troubled. It was the manner he had – that was the way he was in real life, always brooding. ... When we went out, it was never on his motorcycle! That's one trick he couldn't pull on me. We always went in a car!"
Firstly, I find this to be highly speculative and open to many interpretations. Where is the source that says that "he never had no sexual interest in them"? Maybe he simply didn't have a sexual interest in Olive Sturgess? Or, maybe they did indeed have a sexual relationship - she merely stated that they went out causally and they had "no great love". That doesn't mean they weren't sexually involved. 
Lastly, how does a quote by this woman stating he was "troubled" translate to his "questionable sexuality"? So, the two of them went out casually, he didn't trick her into riding on the back of a motorcycle, and she thought he was troubled and brooding....sounds gay to me (sarcasm)! ExRat 04:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now rewritten the passage adding some other material. Onefortyone 22:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed paragraph... 

message: Bill Dakota writes about Adams and James Dean,
:Nick had lived with a guy who had rented an apartment from theater owner, Louie Federici, and Dean often stayed with them. (Federici told me they used to argue over who would wear their one good pair of Levis to hustle in.) Nick had written a few stories about his relationship with Jimmy and then everyone started saying he was just doing it for his own publicity. Adeline Nall, Jimmy's acting teacher in Fairmount, said Jimmy and Nick had been working on a nightclub act for Las Vegas.
See Bill Dakota, "Nick Adams Actor" Onefortyone 01:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bill Dakota is a retired publisher of sensationalist tabloids and an almost tireless self-promoter, though he did eventually give up his attempts (as "WILLIAM DAKOTA") here at WP, and his user page was deleted as spam. Maybe it isn't self-promotion and instead he's just enjoying his anecdotage. Whatever the reason for it, he writes this particular tittle-tattle at something calling itself "the-gossip-columnist-16.blogspot.com". Is this supposed to be verification? Are we supposed to be impressed? -- Hoary 07:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Adams and James Dean

message: Here is the complete text of a personal letter from Colonel Parker to his secretary (8/25/58).
In 1958, with Elvis Presley serving in the U.S. Army and Colonel Tom Parker conducting business from his management office in Madison, Tennessee, Trude Forsher, Elvis and Parker's personal secretary, took care of business at their offices on the west coast.  In this 1958 letter to Mrs. Forsher, Col. Parker catches up with news after a difficult month in which Elvis' beloved mother, Gladys, passed away. It reads: 
:August 25th, 1958
:Dear Trudy and Bruno and Children; 
:I have been very busy looking after everything in Memphis so you know that we did not have much time to answwr [sic] all mail right away.  I have just returned for a few Days [sic] at the office but I must again take off in a few Days [sic] to look after everything in Texas and on to New York, Nicky Admas [sic] came out to be with Elvis last Week wich [sic] was so very kind of him to be there with his friend. 
:I sure wish you all the luck with our TV setup so keep your fingers crossed One [sic] never knows in this business.  I know Elvis appreciate [sic] very much.  I will have the girls enclose your wire in the special scrapbook I am making up for him with all thw [sic] wires and cards from all the friends. 
:I do not know at present when I will get out to the Coast again, however the way things are at present One never knws [sic] I may be out shortly on some business with the Morris office, I will of course call you in event I come out. 
:Glad to know the boys are doing great they both are very smart and I know both of you are proud of them. 
:Give our love to Anna and Dolfi when you see them.  Mr. Diskin joins me also with best wishes. Judy Spreckels also came all the way to Memphis to be with Elvis for the Funeral this was very kind of her also. And I know Elvis did appreciate this so very much. 
:There were many flowers from all over and I know you can understand that we had our hands full with looking after all the details for the Family. 
:Take care of yourself and write when you have time.  Mrs. Parker is now back home getting her yard back in order with the flowers.  She wishes to be rememberred [sic] to all of you. 
:Sincerely, The Colonel 
Provenance: Trude Forsher Archive (Letter of Authenticity from Mrs. Forsher's son). 
This is certainly an important primary source. Onefortyone 23:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, 141, it seems to me that Adams was a friend of Presley's and that Parker noticed this. Or do I miss something? Could this instead be the "smoking gun" that proves that they were an item? Will Hollywood history now be rewritten with a "pink Elvis"? Millions of WP readers (don't) want to know! Perhaps you can write a whole book about it. Label it "gender studies" and the dimmer university librarians will even order copies. -- Hoary 04:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an additional source which undoubtedly shows how close Adams and Presley were at that time. It is very interesting that you have reappeared on the scene in order to continue disparaging my research, at exactly the same time when several sockpuppets who harassed me some days ago have now been banned from Wikipedia. What a coincidence! Onefortyone 01:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (1) It doesn't undoubtedly show how close Adams and Presley were at the time, unless the reader wants it to. (2) If this coincidence is of interest to you, 141, that's perfectly fine with me; if it's of great interest to you, then I'd have no objection whatever to having any suspected sockpuppetry by or of me investigated by checkuser. -- Hoary 08:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colonel Tom Parker's letter of 1958 including an interesting statement concerning Elvis's friendship with Adams