Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/16

message: Images without proper summaries and fair-use rationale are easy grounds by which to refuse an article FA status, and can also be grounds for the deletion of the images. Thought I'd remind everybody and hopefully save us all some headaches. Ryu Kaze 17:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image summaries and licensing

message: ::::I'd appreciate it if you could help with that, Tyler. I requested July 19 (the fifth anniversary of the game's release), and that date is fast-approaching. Since there hasn't been a response yet, I was getting a little anxious. Ryu Kaze 14:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot. ^__^ Ryu Kaze 03:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks :) — Deckiller 03:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks nifty, good sirs. Crazyswordsman 01:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FFX on the front page 

message: List of Final Fantasy XI characters needs your help!  There's a couple of places that have way, way, way too much information (Prince Trion is a good example).  I do not play FFXI anymore and quit shortly before the release of the last expansion, so I'm not a good person to try to cut this text down to the relevant bits.  If you still play and/or are familiar with some of these characters, please take a look if you have a chance and try editing some things down.  Also, be aware that I cut out a huge amount of copyvio'd text copied from Playonline.com and be on the lookout for any more infractions.  Thanks! -RaCha'ar 15:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Attention FFXI players!

message: :I just noticed we are WAY behind on our cruft merging. — Deckiller 21:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the subject of cruft-merging, any chance we can also get a consensus on what to do with the character class articles?  Merge them certainly, but leave them in list format or prosify?  As soon as there's consensus on that I'm more than ready to start cleaning out the individual class articles that aren't notable enough for their own article. -RaCha'ar 21:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really mind, as long as gameguide info is out and the info is compressed. Games like Final Fantasy tactics make their living on classes (so perhaps the two tactics games should get their own article?). We really only need one article describing the classes with a "real world" perspective (although that can be tough with video game articles). — Deckiller 21:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Major issues

message: ::I've gone ahead and merged it. ~ Hibana 22:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Fantasy Haeresis XIII

message: ::Honestly, that sounds acceptable to me. The more I think on it, the more I agree that using "Final Fantasy" as a adjective is a little goofy-sounding. – – Sean Daugherty (talk) 16:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome. It'd be great if RaCha'ar or Hibana could comment on this. A pet peeve of mine is that in articles like Final Fantasy magic, the main point of the article (magic) is neither capitalized nor is it the first word in the title. Axem Titanium 22:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still not a big fan of "List of stuff in the Final Fantasy series" as a format, but I guess saying "blah blah in Final Fantasy" instead of "Final Fantasy blah blah" wouldn't be too horrible.  There's just SO many links to change that it makes my head hurt just thinking about it.  I still prefer things the way they were, but I can see the logic of the change. -RaCha'ar 17:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I really don't think making the article title Magic in Final Fantasy would lump it with "magic" any more than Final Fantasy magic would. Also, a search for "magic" on wikipedia yields 26915, which is a hefty amount, with or without one extra article documenting an important aspect of Final Fantasy. In that same search, seven out of the first eleven results documented radio stations, rather than any esoteric phenomena. In fact, I didn't see anything remotely related to magic in video games until Blue Magic on the 3rd page, roughly the 45th result. At any rate, "magic aficionados" will have trouble enough finding what they're looking for, whether or not this article is there. On the other hand, "Magic in Final Fantasy" would not only avoid using "Final Fantasy" as an adjective, it would clarify it as a concept in "Final Fantasy", rather looking like a loose collection of mildly related words (which would certainly be the case to a layperson). Actually, "Final Fantasy magic" is probably more likely to be confused as an article on magic than "Magic in Final Fantasy" because people would believe "Final Fantasy" to be a brand of magic, assuming they had no idea what "Final Fantasy" was. Axem Titanium 05:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really, I have to agree that it would be better for those list pages to use something like "Magic in Final Fantasy" or "Weapons in Final Fantasy" as their titles. It will mean a lot of links to be fixed, though, sadly. Ryu Kaze 20:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That does seem to be a problem. Isn't there a bot that fixes redirects or something? Axem Titanium 20:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: If this is the agreement, we should probably make a list of all articles that are going to need renames and a very careful eye at their related "what links here" pages, and have project members bid to take on each of the articles, to make sure they're all taken care of.  We're going to need a group of people for this; it's a huge project for one or two people.  Again, I'll volunteer to help, but I don't have the time to take care of more than one or two articles.  Merging the character classes was a huge headache in terms of changing wikilinks and I can't imagine how much worse this will be. -RaCha'ar 20:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, for starters, the stuff at the bottom of Template:Final Fantasy series. I'll compile a complete list as soon as I can. Axem Titanium 02:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Are we only doing the changes for articles that apply to the overall series, not for individual games?  For example, Final Fantasy XI character classes > List of character classes in Final Fantasy XI?  -RaCha'ar 17:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually don't have an opinion on this. We could if we want to and it would give a sense of uniformity of style though. Axem Titanium 18:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely go for uniformity. There's not quite as many lists as I had thought, but it would still be a pain in the ass to fix all those broken links. As long as a group effort is made, though, it wouldn't be that bad. I've fixed redirects on occasions like this about three or four times since I started working on this WikiProject, and it would be horrible for one or two people to fix all of these. Anyway, if it's agreed upon that we do this, I volunteer to help fix two or three of them. Ryu Kaze 19:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page renames

message: :::::::Okay.  All classes except those mentioned above have been merged and redirected, and I think/hope I've caught all the wikilinks to the previous articles for character classes and pointed them in the right direction.  If I've missed any please feel free to fix them or point them out to me. -RaCha'ar 20:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Character class merges ahoy!

message: Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VIII have both joined the ranks of other featured articles generated from this project.  Congradulations to all the editors who put time into those articles to make them what they are now. --ZeWrestler  Talk 17:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's absolutely incredible.  Big, huge congratulations to all involved! -RaCha'ar 17:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A big thanks to everyone involved.  I will make sure to give everyone who helped a barnstar. Sir Crazyswordsman 19:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the congrats. ^^ Ryu Kaze 18:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Newest Featured Articles

message: I added in Aerith and Cloud, not sure when they hit GA status, but they are now!  --PresN 20:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ryu did some of the major work there.  Although much of the push was helped by anons and new editors, believe it or not. Sir Crazyswordsman 20:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Hopefully we can get the rest of the main characters up there as well. Squall Leonheart and Terra Branford are close, and I'm planning on having Terra Branford peer reviewed. Sir Crazyswordsman 01:43, 4 August 2006 
(UTC)
* Yeah, I've been working on Squall Leonhart off and on, I plan on making a few tweaks and nominating it. I wish the GA process was quick as it used to be. Oh, by the way, tip: I highly recommend focusing on the main articles to be featured articles; character articles should just focus on achieving GA status. — Deckiller 02:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done. Congrats. Ryu Kaze 16:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Articles

message: has anyone else noticed our todo list has thinned greatly.  Maybe it is time we give it a mass update? --ZeWrestler  Talk 14:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have so many GAs and FAs that not many people gave it much thought.  We're just doing stuff as we go along, methinks.  Eventually it all gets positive results. Sir Crazyswordsman 15:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If one of them is perchance to merge the different Final Fantasy Tactics Advance character class articles into one article, I have just about finished the article in my sandbox, so you can hold off on that until it's done.  If not, well... the article is almost done!  Yay! -RaCha'ar 04:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool! I was talking about merging the battle systems into one article, "Battle systems in Final Fantasy". I'm thinking about calling it "Square Enix battle systems". — Deckiller 04:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome and past due, if previous conversation on the character classes page is any indication.  Good call. -RaCha'ar 04:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Do list 

message: User:Druff has gone through and removed the nihongo Japanese transliteration of all of the numbers of the FF games with the comment "There is absolutely no need to convert roman numerals to phonetics." See a sample diff here.  I assume there's a reason they were all like that in the first place, but without knowing for a fact myself, figured I'd bring it here so someone who does know can correct it or acknowledge that it's already corrected in the first place. -RaCha'ar 17:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Meh... Changes like this must be discussed here. Just yesterday I was telling someone to check Wikipedia for phonetics and Japanese naming for Yaibal and Youcum. We need that in the articles. It's not gamecruft, doesn't help in the game, it is language and culture, it belongs here. Reverting Renmiri 19:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly the phonetic renderings of katakana spellings (such as ファイナルファンタジー) have their place in an encyclopedic context. However, there's no need for that umbrella to cover  roman numerals. When katakana, hiragana, kanji etc. are presented, it makes sense to include their pronunciation. But there's no need to inform the reader on how to pronounce roman numberals. Information on how Japanese speakers pronounce "ファイナルファンタジー" is useful information. Information on how they pronounce roman numerals is irrelevant. Druff 01:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see either argument, but since they pronounce the roman numerals from Final Fantasy titles while trying to imitate English phonetics (like the "Final Fantasy" part itself), I think it's relevant. If they pronounced the roman numerals the same way they pronounce their numbers normally, it probably wouldn't be as valuable to provide a romaji representation. Ryu Kaze 13:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary, if they were pronouncing the roman numerals as Japanese numbers, then it would make sense to provide their Japanese translation. But since they're essentially trying to pronounce them as they would be in English, providing the pronunciation comes off as circular, unnecessary, and crufty. Druff 16:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But would people be able to tell that they were pronounced in the Engrishy way just by looking at the katakana? Chances are that they won't and even if they could, it wouldn't hurt the article to have one extra word inside the nihongo template. Besides,  is just as Engrishy as any of those Roman numeral pronunciations and we're not removing them, are we? Axem Titanium 16:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just explained as clearly as I could why I think the katakana pronunciations should not be removed, but the roman numeral pronunciations should. It's as though you completely ignored what I said. It has nothing to do with "Engrish". It has to do with relevant, encyclopedic content. However, it's clear that I'm outnumbered by this little clique who has seen fit to become a group of Wiki enforcers, so I'll just drop this and let the cruft build up. Druff 17:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be civil.  There was really no call for that. -RaCha'ar 17:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but there's a difference between  and . Axem Titanium 18:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's precisely my point. I support providing the translation and transliteration of 十三, because it's Japanese. XIII is not Japanese, and so I see no need for translation or transliteration, just as the publisher in Japan apparently doesn't see the need either. Druff 19:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: But people would think, "Oh. It's a Japanese game so they must pronounce it in Japanese," but then they'd be wrong because the Japanese people pronounce it in English and wikipedia wouldn't be able to inform them of that. And besides, it's still only a few extra letters. It's not like some giant avalanche of cruft is going to appear just because we include that (it hasn't yet and it's been this way for a while). Axem Titanium 21:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Axem came close to emphasising the point I was trying to: since they aren't pronouncing them the way the Japanese normally would pronounce those numbers, it's more valuable to point out how they actually are pronouncing them. Normally one would expect Japanese people to pronounce something the Japanese way. If, however, they aren't, then such an assumption would prove misleading. Really, I think we should use the romaji representation in all cases. I think it's most valuable in the cases where they're using non-Japanese pronunciation (as you could normally expect Japanese people to pronounce things in Japanese), but I think it serves a relevant purpose of clarity in every case. Ryu Kaze 16:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed! Good point Axem! Renmiri 18:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to a bunch of articles

message: An editor just added quite a bit of information — it needs some compressing and a copyedit. — Deckiller 04:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Final Fantasy (video game)]]

message: Found the following team logos on my Ultimania Omega: Bevelle Bells and Yocun Nomads (pic below). Shall I add them to the sectio that lists "other teams" such as the Zanarkand Duggles ? Renmiri 06:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably should just for comprehensiveness' sake. Ryu Kaze 12:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh we definitely need these images. Sir Crazyswordsman 01:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added it to FF Wiki too, of course! Renmiri 19:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're good at this, Ren.  I only wish Amano art was easier to comeby.  Thankfully Amano released a book of his FF art for the first ten games. Sir Crazyswordsman 01:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Blitzball]] 

message: Tristam and I recently touched on the importance of secondary sources within computer and video game articles due to a lack of them being a reason the Final Fantasy IV article is not FACable. Donkey Kong (arcade game), for instance, is featured article with several written (book) sources. According to Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Some definitions, primary sources, such as dialogue from the game's themselves or official guidebooks or magazines, should not be solely relied on for references, but authorative printed material such as books on computer and video gaming and even doctoral theses (scholarly presses) should be used. Websites are also used extensively (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Using online and self-published sources).
The problem is that these printed sources are very difficult to come across. I know we've managed a few featured articles in the past few months without such citing, but I'm wondering if anyone has librarian-like skills in digging up secondary printed resources in case we run into this type of problem in the future. I know we have this thesis as an external link in Final Fantasy X (props to whomever discovered it), and I'd feel comfortable knowing we have similar material available out there. ~ Hibana 00:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gee, thanks and the thesis is quite an interesting read too! Renmiri 01:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Secondary sources are easier to come by on older games — like Donkey Kong and FFIV. If people start pestering for book secondary sources, I'll ask them to find them for themselves, since I have NONE around here :) — Deckiller 00:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Another problem is that there are pratically none (I've never seen a book on final fantasy). If people dare to delist our hard work because of circumstances beyond our control, I may even be compelled to leave and hone my talents elsewhere. — Deckiller 00:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah.  As much as I would like to see FFIV featured (it WAS my first after all), it's going to be a real challenge.  There's no Ultimania on it and Square's too lazy to make one now.  If I were a philosophy major, I probably would write a "Final Fantasy and Philosophy" novel.  And either Cecil or Terra would be on the cover to make sure people know I'm covering the whole series and not just the Nomura games.  It's like an FFVI fan at CoN once said: "Comparing FFVI to FFVII is like comparing a five star restaurant to a McDonalds.  The five star is better, but everyone eats at the McDonalds." Sir Crazyswordsman 01:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That can also be applied to FF8 and FF7, FF10 and FF7, Xenosaga and FF7, and Xenogears and FF7. — Deckiller 02:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't even find that much information VII to be honest. You'd think someone would at least write about it's impact on the gaming community. All Amazon.com has on Final Fantasy games are strategy guides, sheet music, and a few multimedia articles (who knows what they're about). Although there was one book (The Video Game Theory Reader) that compares game theory to film theory and has about ten pages of material on Final Fantasy IX. ~ Hibana 02:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we can kidnap and interrogate Hironobu Sakaguchi to get new information, and call it a "quaternary source" rather than original research. ~ Hibana 03:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That wouldn't work beyond V.  Hinorobu didn't have much of a part in the series starting with VI. Sir Crazyswordsman 00:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Google gave me also this guy an "Independent Game Scholar" when I searched for the book... Maybe his site is worth browsing for more stuff Renmiri 01:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've had [this book for a while but I haven't had a chance to read it. Looking up Final Fantasy in the index, I found a few pages, predominantly about Final Fantasy VII and The Spirits Within (which makes sense because it was published around that time). I'll see if there are any useful excerpts from it. Axem Titanium 02:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've decided I might try to push VII to FA, so anybody who wants to see it happen, find whatever you can. This is going to be one hell of a nightmare. Ryu Kaze 13:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aaack!!! It' like asking for punishment ;) Sorry, can't help much on this one but I DO have the game so I can get some screenshots if needed. Renmiri 17:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text: So far, the Development section might be done. Yes, one section done. Ryu Kaze 18:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Secondary sources

message: I need your help in editing the prose and finding some reliable, secondary sources for the character design section.  All I have is the Amano interview I cited. Sir Crazyswordsman 15:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The peer review for Terra Branford can be found here. ~ Hibana 20:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a little battle going on.  The Trivia and abilities section is incredibly popular among novice editors and I can't seem to convince them that they need reworking. Sir Crazyswordsman 18:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alright, I submitted Terra's article for Peer Review

message: Final Fantasy X-2 is now a featured article! Way to go, everyone! ~ Hibana 02:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yay, yet another one down :) I've been talking to Ryu about spliting up for VII and IX, and then cross-examining the articles in a week or so. — Deckiller 02:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, congrats! Axem Titanium 02:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the congrats. Ryu Kaze 13:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You guys are machines.  Congratulations! -RaCha'ar 16:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Ryu and Deckiller have split up to work on Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy IX respectively, as I thought. I am trying to get Final Fantasy V to Good Article status. It would be great if someone could tackle IV as well. ~ Hibana 01:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll help you and Deck out if I can.  I could use a copy of FFV's script, though I doubt I could find it. Sir Crazyswordsman 21:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Fantasy X-2 is now featured