Talk:Association football positions

message: I've always seen CFs positioned BEHIND the striker, almost synonymous with a SS. Shouldn't the front-most position just be called striker (ST)?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockslideproductions (talk • contribs) 00:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: CF?

message: Does anyone, who is an expert, want to discuss hybrids in terms of football positions? By this I mean that there can be players in football that do not entirely fit the role of a winger, but does play on the sides. For example, Messi is not a person who really sticks to the touchline; he fits the role of a right-attacking-midfielder who plays on the side and dribbles towards the center when approaching his team's attack third, and he definitely does not really fit the role of central player or a playermaker. Messi  seems to be in a classification of a player who is a mix between a attacking-midfielder and a winger; it would be acceptable for this to be considered.
(talk)(Lord Shivan (talk) 00:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hybrids

message: Seeing that centre forward and striker are (rightly) separated into two positions, these two should be also. Sweepers are defensive players who "sweep up" behind the defence, where liberos are attacking players who attack from the defensive line - Der Kaiser was often shown on lineups as being between defence and midfield for this purpose. I would do this separation myself, but I wasn't sure which players to put into each section.198.49.174.82 (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Libero and Sweeper

message: I think the attack section of this page is particularly good. With the centre forward/striker/support striker breakdown, it provides an in depth analysis of the roles of forwards. There are quite a lot of examples of players, this in general on the article, should be kept at a limit.Bobbyfletch85 14:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Detail

message: The article has been listed at Wikipedia:Duplicate articles#L for a while, and it had an inconsistent name for a long time and no links... --Joy [shallot] 12:51, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: old status

message: If you ask me "goal keepers of renown" does not sound too english to me. 
--Differentgravy 14:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe not to you, however it is perfectly good English. I will admit though, that "World-renowned goalkeepers" would be a more accessible title, and might stop people just adding their club's favourite player to the list. --Lancevortex 15:19, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "goal keeper of renown"

message: I think the language in this article is often too gender specific, i.e. masculine. Given the fact that Women's football is a major sport, the article should reflect this by staying as gender neutral as possible. For example, the 'Goalkeeper' section repeatedly refers to the goalie as 'he', 'him' etc. 
Bowerski
:There's also the fact that there aren't any female players listed under the renown sections? For Example: Mia Hamm as renown forward?  She certainly was considered an excellent player. Selfexiled 09:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender specific language 

message: I returned the reference on Jorge Campos as a striker.  It is a well documented fact and in several occasions a sub was made chaging a foward for the second goalkeeper so Campos could take the position at the front. --Threner 02:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Out of interest what does Campos do?  Was he fielded as a striker in some matches and a goalkeeper in others?  The Campos article called him a "particular good attacker"; in what ways was he "especially good"? Mandel 09:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Right now he is the auxiliar coach at the Mexican National Soccer team.  In some complete seasons he was fielded as a striker.  In some others he was sometimes fielded as a striker and some other times as a keeper.  In some matches, he would play the first half as a keeper and the second time as a striker.  He was a good striker in a fashion, one season he was I think second or third place on the scoring ranking, but of course he was not a first rank striker.  He had a solid finish and he was quite quick and agile.  Being a keeper his shot wasn't bad, but nothing like Chilavert or the Santos Goalkeeper --Threner 18:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Campos 

message: For being such a long article, this article really needs some type of images, football diagrams, etc.?
unsigned comment by User:Cardshark04
:Good idea.  Someone needs to create a football pitch diagram, like the one at FC Barcelona#Squad and release the copyright so it can be edited by other users for different purposes.  This pic can be edited freely.  I wouldn't mind doing it, but it's not gonna happen today.Slumgum 22:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know exactly what you mean, but there's a few football pitch diagrams at Formation (football) that might be useful? Poulsen 23:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

text: There aren't just 11 positions in the game, it's just that only 11 players can be on the field at any one time, and they can play anywhere on the field. The image merely shows the typical areas of the field that players of each of the positions detailed in this article tend to occupy. – PeeJay 13:49, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Diagrams/Pictures

message: A check back to this article after half a year.  It is now very bloated.  If you have info but they pertain not to footballing positions, put them in their respective pages, not here.  Reserve this for football positions.
Definitely too bloated.  Some copyedit is necessary. Mandel 17:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and am giving the article a nice, thorough copyedit. If I let any American English spellings through, feel free to change them back. Recury 19:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bloated

message: There's no reason for this to be dublicated Travelbird 00:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: Recently I've heard about the term "deep-lying second playmaker". Can anyone tell me what it is? I suspected that it is like a creative midfielder playing in the defensive midfield position.
KnucklesEchidna 10:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's basically a Centre Midfielder who doesn't try and get forward, but instead lies back and plays balls from a central position. Technically not a Defensive Midfielder, but the line is somewhat blurred. Hope it helps--Tiresais 20:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deep-lying second playmaker 

message: If I was a complete newbie to football and read this article as an introduction to it, I'd be very confused. Regarding players mentioned twice as examples for different positions. So Pele is a great example of a centre forward but also a great example of a deep-lying forward? (notice in the article these are two distinct categories) And Maradona is both an attacking midfielder and a deep-lying forward? I know these are arguably the two finest players in history, but if their position in the field is somewhat hard to distinguish, then in my opinion they shouldn't be used as examples of stereotypes. --Noikeee 21:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Players mentioned twice

message: It should be noted that there is a difference between a centre forward and a striker and these two roles should not be confused, although they do share similarities. A centre forward is a player who leads the front line, typically they are strong, good in the air and are sometimes known to defend from the front. Examples of these are Alan Shearer, Gabriel Batistuta and Didier Drogba. A striker is better known for making runs to beat defenders, trying to beat the offside trap and play close to the goal area. They are typically recognised as quick, with good reaction speed and given few defensive responsibilites. Examples of these are Michael Owen, Obafemi Martins and Samuel Etoo. --Bobbyfletch85 02:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Centre Forward/Striker

message: It says in the beginning that "A team is made up of one goalkeeper and ten outfield players who fill various defensive, midfield and attacking positions depending on the formation deployed. These positions describe both the player's main role and their area of operation on the pitch."
I would add that one could divide "area of operation on the pitch" into two parts: area of operation when defending and area of operation when attacking. For example, in the Portuguese national team, Maniche defends quite far back on the midfield, but when attacking, he is the one of the central midfielders that most often runs into the box, and he scores quite a few goals from inside the penalty area. Now is he to be called an offensive or defensive midfielder? There is no obvious way to go here.
Moreover, "area of operation on the pitch" is more or less synonymous with "position". Thus "these positions describe both the player's main role and their area of operation on the pitch" becomes "these positions describe both the player's main role and his position" which doesn't make sense to me.
I would instead say that each player has a "role" which consists of three elements: playing style - where such things as skill with the ball, ability to steal the ball, etc. are included -, position when attacking and position when defending. For example, Andrea Pirlo is a creative player who works from a deep position. He isn't accurately described as either an offensive or a defensive midfielder. Likewise, as I said, it is not easy to know whether Maniche is to be described as an offensive or a defensive midfielder.
Thus, I'd suggest that one creates a new page: "Football player roles" (or something similar) where these considerations are described and players are given a more fine-tuned classification. Settembrini 14:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change name 

message: Someone sure wasn't exactly objective in the choice of representative players for each position, Arsenal tend to have ALOT of players, some of which not exactly very representative (Senderos, Clichy, Hleb, WALCOTT!?!)
Arsenal names in the article:
Jens Lehmann
Kolo Toure, Philippe Senderos
Gael Clichy, Emmanuel Eboue
Francesc Fabregas
Tomas Rosicky, Freddie Ljungberg, Robert Pires, Alexander Hleb, Theo Walcott [i know, Pires isn't at Arsenal anymore, but he got famous as an Arsenal star]
Thierry Henry
Dennis Bergkamp [also, former Arsenal star]
The fact is even more obvious as usually the Arsenal players are first in their lists...
Also:
"Good examples of centre-backs in the modern game include Kolo Toure, Philippe Senderos, Alessandro Nesta, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Fabio Cannavaro, Lilian Thuram, William Gallas, Lúcio, Carles Puyol, Kolo Toure and Roberto Ayala."
Toure is there twice, which makes me think someone just decided to add the names from Arsenal in the beginning...
The choices for players should have a better ballance...
(...and the sad part is that the whole thing is so obvious it offended me, an Arsenal fan...)
Oh, and btw, a great player like Ronaldinho isn't listed anywhere...
Exeprime 20:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many Arsenal names 

message: A "continental term"? From which continent? It's a wrong term, a wrong definition. These are different positions. The abbreviation "SS" is wrong as well. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 16:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The term is used in continental Europe, specifically in Germany, Spain and Italy. The second striker is a forward who plays in a withdrawn role behind the main striker (the first striker). - PeeJay 16:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. And deep-lying forwards play in the space between their midfielders and forwards, occasionally becoming forwards as well. See the difference? —Lesfer (t/c/@) 18:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is a difference, it is superficial at best. To all intents and purposes, the deep-lying forward and the second striker perform the same role and play in the same position. If you look at the 2007 UEFA Champions League Final, you will notice Kaka's position just off the main striker. Some would call him a deep-lying forward, and others would call him a second striker. Either way, it's the same position. - PeeJay 18:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not. And Kaka is a midfielder. Playing in the 4-5-1 (or 4-4-1-1) is not the same as the 4-4-2. Despite calling "deep-lying forwards", the position is much more alike an attacking midfielder than a forward. They are not "second forwards". —Lesfer (t/c/@) 19:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know Kaka is a midfielder by trade, but in the Champions League Final, he was deployed as a Second Striker/Deep-lying Forward. Perhaps if we used the term "support striker" rather than "second striker", that would make more sense. I really don't see how you can be missing the point here. - PeeJay 20:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But I'm not missing a thing. The simple point is: "second strikers" are one thing; "deep-lying forwards" are quite another. This is the point, they're not the same. And saying they are means to use the wrong term. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 13:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If that is the case, then you haven't explained the difference very well. - PeeJay 13:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry for my failure. Second strikers play in a withdrawn role behind the main striker. Deep-lying forwards play in the space between midfield and attack - behind striker and second striker. Sometimes a deep-lying forward may play as a second striker as well. So what? Sometimes a fullback may also play as a winger. What deep-lying forwards may occasionally do is not the point here. The point is how they usually play. "Occasionally" is a side note. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 15:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And is this a formally-defined definition or just your interpretation? Give me an example of a deep-lying forward and an example of a second striker and we'll see. - PeeJay 15:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just as "formally-defined" as this definition you insist on defending. Since when Cruijff, Maradona, Zico or Platini were "(second) strikers"? —Lesfer (t/c/@) 21:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever. You think it's right, don't you? Fine, keep it like that. If not me, someday someone else is going to correct it. Regards. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 21:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deep-lying forwards x second forwards

message: A glaring omission from the early tactical evolution is the Scottish short passing game and the pioneering 2-2-6 formation. Queen's Park FC pioneered this intricate passing system and Scotland played 2-2-6 against England in the first official international match of 1872. The Scottish short passing game revolutionised football and many great international sides including Austria and Uruguay (1930s), Hungary and Brazil (1950s) developed their short passing style from the "Scottish System". In England the pioneering Scottish players were referred to as "Scotch Professors" and many of them were signed by leading English teams during the 19th and early 20th centuries (the Preston Invincibles team is a particularly good example). The passing game did not significantly develop amongst London's elitist amateur clubs through any influence from the Royal Engineers and the rudimentary 1-2-7 system but rather through the Corinthians team - set up in 1882 in order to practise and master the short passing game because of the dominance of Scotland over England at international level during the period.
could this section be a separate article? 13thfloor (talk) 03:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why not. – PeeJay 06:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment on tactical evolution

message: There is a contradiction in this article, RW and LW are shown as forwards in the graphic but are explained in the midfield section. I think RW and LW are forwards and not midfielder. So, I'd like to move the explanation to the forward section.--ClaudioMB 01:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WG is a more common code for Winger. - PeeJay 16:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot discuss that because I've used neither. I've seen people using WI (Manchester_United_F.C._season_2007-08#Squad_information, Chelsea_F.C._2007-2008#Squad_Information and 2007-08_Season_for_Sunderland_A.F.C.#Squad_information) but never WG.--ClaudioMB 16:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To be perfectly honest, I don't see abbreviations for "winger" used very often, but when I do, WG is the one I see most. - PeeJay 19:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: a wing forward is different to a winger, thats the issue. wingers have for the last 40+ years been considered midfielders. a wing forward was until v.v.recently very rare. re 1999 cl final - ryan giggs, midfielder or forward? he most certainly IS a winger, and in no way a striker. the winger section should remain as part of the midfield, an extra wing forward addition should be added i think. Dead-or-Red (talk) 19:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be confusing a winger with a wide midfielder. In the 1999 CL final, Giggs certainly played as a wide midfielder, as did Blomqvist on the other side. However, I have often seen Giggs and Cristiano Ronaldo listed as forwards in UEFA team lists, which would suggest to me that their regular position (winger) is a FORWARD position. – PeeJay 20:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Furthermore, you also seem to be making the assumption that a forward must always be a striker/centre forward, when in fact a forward can be positioned either on the left or right wing also. Finally, your comment about wingers being considered as midfielders "for the last 40+ years" is not quite true. While it is true that the original outside forwards migrated backwards from an advanced position, they then became wide midfielders. The modern winger is simply a continuation of the old outside forward position. – PeeJay 14:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i am making no such assumption at all, which is why i said that a new section for wing forward should be written. giggs has always been classed as a winger, the fact of the matter is that for the last 40 odd years wingers have played far too deep to be classed as forwards. Dead-or-Red (talk) 17:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But they play far too forward to be classed as midfielders. The same distinction can be made between full-backs and wing-backs or attacking midfielders and supporting strikers. – PeeJay 09:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: are attacking midfielders midfielders or strikers? the only difference between an attacking midfielder and a winger is that one plays in the centre, the other on the wing. Dead-or-Red (talk) 12:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously attacking midfielders are midfielders. However, a supporting striker, who plays in a position only slightly more advanced than an attacking midfielder, is considered a forward because he has a different role. Same goes for full-backs and wing-backs. A wing-back plays further forward than a full-back, and has less defensive duties to perform. Their position is ambiguous, however, with regard to whether they are defenders or midfielders. A winger, however, plays extremely far forward, like Cristiano Ronaldo, Salomon Kalou or Lionel Messi would, and they have very few defensive duties to perform. This is what sets them apart from wide midfielders, and why they should be considered forwards. Am I still not being clear enough for you, or can I finally revert the article to the way it's supposed to be? – PeeJay 14:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

text: But a winger is the same as a wing forward. It's just a shorter way of saying it. In the same way that "wing back" is short for "wing full back", "winger" is short for "wing forward". – PeeJay 19:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: When Barcelona are playing a 4-3-3 formation and Messi and Henry are on the flanks playing as wingers, how can you possibly consider them Midfielders??? Wingers such as Christiano Ronaldo should only be recognized as forwards, while someone who just plays on the wing, such as Franck Ribery is a midfielder.  I think the main article should be under Striker, with a brief explanation in Midfielder. Maybe the Striker article should be re-named to Forward...Hubschrauber729 (talk) 01:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 1 - a winger is not a wing forward, a wing forward plays in a much more advanced position and has no defensive duties. 2 - the article should reflect the majority. re-writting the article because players like messi play so far forward is gash. even c.ronaldo tracks back and defends, there is no way you could consider him an out and out forward in 90% of the games he plays. Dead-or-Red (talk) 13:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Winger

message: Surely Garrincha was not a midfielder! Should reference be to Didi?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.229.235.218 (talk) 21:08, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tactical evolution 

message: The article currently claims that the last major tactical development was in the early 90's. This is pretty absurd. It also claims that "These days, the 4-4-2 formation is very much the predominant tactic in world football" which is nonsense. 4-4-2 is not even the predominant tactic in English football any more let alone the rest of the world. At the highest level the most popular tactic is probably 4-2-3-1 with 4-3-3 running in second place.
The article then contradicts itself by saying that "new tactics are being pioneered all the time" and cites the 4-3-3 formation that Barcelona have used since the early 1990's and which was inspired by the Dutch 4-3-3 of the 60's as an example of a recent tactical innovation. Misodoctakleidist (talk) 14:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you believe the article needs to be changed, please do so, but kindly provide your sources. Sincerely, your friend, GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim that no new tactics have been developed in the last 20 years is laughable 

message: Assocation football is american term - Wikipedia is international, not american. The articel title should be changed to Football! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raelpl (talk • contribs) 09:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, association football is a British term. – PeeJay 09:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Title

message: To whoever added the stuff about him being the inventor of the sweeper: Sorry, but this site doesn't seem very trustworthy. That being said, I have no idea if Apolzan invented it or not, but there definately needs to be a better source for advocating such a claim Teh hackz0r (talk) 08:54, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alexandru Apolzan 

message: Is that a real position?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob Koopa (talk • contribs) 05:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  SS? 

message: The current positional diagram – while pretty good – is too regular (with positions in a neat rows and columns) and doesn't really reflect the content of the article.  I've mocked up a possible replacement which reflects the positions named in the article's TOC.  Any thoughts, criticisms or suggestions?  If there's no objections, I suggest replacing the current diagram with this.  Cheers! Charlie A. (talk) 00:19, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me. Go ahead. – PeeJay 10:35, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cool, done (with a few final tweaks) Charlie A. (talk) 22:00, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing position diagram 

message: First of all, there's a 3rd type of goalkeepers - safe goalkeeper. These are rather the opposite of the sweeper-keeper type, tend to stand on the goal line more and have perfect positioning and handling. They also would prefer to catch the ball. 
Second, I suggest you in the player types section to add an example for each type, if possible - an active player. For example:
Safe Goalkeeper - Buffon;
Shot Stopper - De Gea; 
Sweeper-Keeper - Neuer;
Attacking Fullback - Dani Alves;
Libero (sweeper) - they're rare nowadays but maybe Vermaelen will do;
Stopper - Kompany is the best example;
Ball Winner - Khedira;
Defensive Midfielder - Nigel De Jong;
Creative Midfielder - Diego;
Box-To-Box Midfielder - Vidal;
Pulls Wide - Oscar;
Playmaker - Fabregas;
Midfield General - Yaya Toure;
Dribbler - Christiano Ronaldo;
Counter Attacker - Bale;
Clinical Finisher - Rooney;
Target Man - Giroud;
Poacher - Berbatov, Diego Costa;
False 9 - Messi.
Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.72.183.69 (talk) 22:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide a reliable source for this information? We can't add it to the article without one, as this appears to be the very definition of original research. – PeeJay 22:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggesting changes 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In German spoken countries (Germany, Austria, German part of Switzerland) there are, since a few years, position of outfield players are given with numbers (in many cases, maybe in all cases ?, with those, like the numbers on the back of the shirts were before the 1970ies). Wings are indicated as "the right seven" or "the left seven", centre forward as "the nine", midfielders as "the six" (a system with two defensive midfielders as "double sixs") a.s.o.. Indeed, there are indication like "false seven“ if the player changes his position meanwhile with other players. 213.225.38.186 (talk) 14:11, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indications for positions 

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thread_title:  External links modified