Talk:Oroonoko/Archive 1

message: The following is a pasting of the contents of the talk page of Oroonoko as of March 18, 2005.  N.b. that this refactoring has taken place, with the regrettable loss of edit history, merely to save space and to clarify the talk page for the article's upcoming Featured Article candidacy. Geogre 15:30, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

message: Dumb mistake on my part, believing the Oxford Companion when it said 1678 for the publication.  I knew in my head (which I sometimes find) that it was 1688.  Thanks to the editor who made the change. Geogre 00:57, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mistake

message: Geogre, I had a few questions that I thought perhaps you might answer, and in doing so improve the text (I did a light copyedit, which I hope you'll agree has made a small improvement).
#"She wrote a great deal of poetry". Geogre, you said her poetry was "very fine". This doesn't sound very NPOV to me but if you can source it, I have no objection to it. I've never read anyone say her poetry wasn't fine.
The reason for saying so is that there were plenty of authors who wrote poetry that wasn't very good.  Behn was attempting to make a living at court...it's complicated, but poets didn't make money for their poetry, but for their dedications, and being a poet in the court was meaningful.  At any rate, Behn wrote excellent poetry, which deserves comment, but she wasn't publishing it on writing, wasn't writing with an eye toward being a professional poet (a category that didn't exist).  It's POV to say that it's very fine poetry, but it's the generally accepted scholarly POV, whereas it would not be the case with others (probably Mary Manley, Susannah Centlivre...although some think she's great) who wrote novels.
#You say Surinam is in the West Indies. It isn't quite. It's in South America. Our article on West Indies, which is a little confusing, unfortunately, does not include it in the West Indies, although it correctly notes it's a part of the Caribbean region. If the novel places it there (I can't remember, long time since I read it), you should perhaps say so.
It takes place there, yes.  I don't think it's wrong to say that it's in the West Indies for two reasons.  First, that's where it was to her.  Second, it still is in some schemes.  If I neglected to say that it's set in Surinam, though, that's an omission I'll fix.
#"Oroonoko is often credited as the first instance of the idea of the "noble savage."" By whom? This sounds like a weasel term to me. I'd far rather read someone crediting it so.
That is a very long list of critics, unfortunately.  As recently as the 1980's, people were publishing on the novel with the "noble savage" theme.  In this case, it's no weasel:  it really is often considered by critics and teachers of the novel.  I disagree with the claim, myself, as I don't think that Africans were "savages," particularly as Behn handles them.  My analogy to Othello was intentional:  I think Behn treats Africans the way that Shakespeare treats moors -- as Englishmen in blackface (although his Othello is a Spaniard in blackface).  
#"Oroonoko was a very successful novel". Was it? I don't know. I suppose it might have been. (It has survived, which puts it one up on many works, I suppose!) Can you quantify that though? Do you have sources that indicate that it was well received, or sold lots of copies? The use by Southerne is a good indication, but I'm not sure it's enough. Playwrights often use fairly obscure sources. Dr Zen 05:01, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: A few questions

message: 1. The POV language is not objectionable.
I object to it
Yes, that's true, you do object.  Odd that you object to this POV language but don't edit any of the high school articles that get listed on VfD.  So, is it the POV language you object to, or is it me?  It's your business if you wish to be hypocritical -- no one says you can't be -- but I really doubt your sincerity and therefore give your objection less weight than I would if it were from a neutral source.
:I do not object to you at all. You should give assuming good faith a try. I'm perfectly neutral about you. I don't share your philosophy on what should be included in Wikipedia, and I don't much like you either, but neither would entice me to try to damage your work. I am wholly motivated by improving this article.
2. The pluperfects were necessary constructions:  they located a past in relation to the writing of the novel.  I.e. they place an act before another act also in the past.
No. I disagree entirely. This is a misuse of the pluperfect. The past tense is used for this. It's perfectly clear from the context that the events are prior. She couldn't write the book before she was born. I emended your article to the common style for encyclopaedia articles.
You disagree.  That's nice.  I disagree with your disagreement.  I know that I'm right, and I suspect your motives.
:You are entirely wrong. I don't care that you suspect my motives. I correct arrogant writers day in, day out. This quite simply is not what the pluperfect is for. It is for showing actions that are completed at the time in question: call it X. But X is not fixed in a piece of writing. It moves depending on the context, and the participles mark relations to it -- not to some overriding idea of the time frame of the whole piece. You are in fact moving X to a fresh time frame by describing other events in Behn's life. This doesn't require the pluperfect. I'm willing to discuss this with you further, but bring it to my talk page if you don't mind.
3. The antithesis of first novel written by a woman was a rhetorical flourish that just didn't need to be removed -- strictly a matter of preference.
Yes, and I prefer it gone. It was poorly written and I fixed it. Merciless editing, Geogre.
You prefer it gone.  I prefer it there.  I think it was beautifully written.  Merciless reversion, Dr "Modern Day Pepys" Zen.
:Our opinions certainly differ on what is beautiful, Geogre. I have tried editing it again. Perhaps you will agree that I have beautified you even further.
4.  Imoinda chose another.  It isn't that she can choose anyone.  She makes a choice, and it is the result of that choice, which she makes in front of the king, that leads to enslavement.
Sorry yes, this was a mistake on my part.
5. "There are many notable things" about this novel is necessary for anyone who reads a lot of early novels.
It's simply poor writing. It's what we call telling not showing, Geogre. You don't need to tell us that there are notable things. You demonstrate it, which you go on to do.
No, it's clarification.  You do need to tell that there are notable things if what follows is a delineation of the manner of note.  I.e. this is an apositive.  It's excellent writing.
:No, it is not. You have already told the reader that there are things of note to follow by giving them a heading that indicates that.
There are a ton of them, and each of them has its own reason for being worth one's time.  The things that make this novel worthwhile are not the ones that make The New Atlantis notable or Love Letters Between a Nobleman and His Sister notable or Moll Flanders notable.
Indeed not.
That sentence was introducing the critical highlights that keep this novel on the reading list. Geogre, it was under a heading "Literary Significance". The reader has a due expectation that there will be some things discussed that show it is notable!  
Geogre 00:14, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That last paragraph, if not plain nonsense, was too dense for me to understand. If your heading is too broad, change your heading. Don't clutter up the article with verbiage to get round your poor choice of head! Thanks for taking the time to discuss your reversion. 
in italics once moreDr Zen 05:26, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Private page?  "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it."Dr Zen 00:23, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: Your insistence on not assuming good faith is tiresome. My corrections were improvements, however you look at them. Being rude about the pluperfect will not actually make you right. You are quite right that I am not an expert in English literature but, as it happens, I don't claim to be. I am no more than a dilettante and content to remain one. I've read Oroonoko but I do not know anything about its success, for example. However, I don't need to know anything about that to know how to write English correctly, which is my speciality, or to know that describing Behn as writing "fine poetry" is an expression of your opinion if it is not sourced (indeed, it is not even written as someone's view but given as a plain fact!).Dr Zen 05:26, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why reverted 

message: I have, strictly speaking, never reverted User:Dr Zen and don't intend to.  Each time there has been a rejection of the changes that he has insisted upon, I have added information to the article.  As of the most current "reversion," I have added considerable context (at least 4 high school article's worth) to the literary significance section.  As for insisting on one's own views of sentence structures, they're trivial, on the one hand, and omitting valuable information, on the other.  E.g. the antithesis at the end of the lead.  That antithesis was put there specifically to differentiate "first woman novelist" into "first woman author" and "first novel" to suggest that what's going on here is early novel and early by a woman.  Secondly, though, the stylistic vehemence over a pluperfect is not accurate, in the first place, and not rational in the second.  In general, when one cuts a sentence or makes a major change, it is courteous to speak to the primary author, if there is one, first, rather than to make the changes and cuts and then insist that one is being persecuted when that gets reversed.  Geogre 04:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do not revert: Read below for why 

message: Thanks, Bishonen, for the expansion on the play.  I hardly know it at all.  I know more about it than it itself.  We need, likely, an Oroonoko (play) article, as the play may have kept the novel in print later on.  It was certainly popular. Geogre 02:44, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Play notes 

message: We've got a discrepancy here that needs to be fixed. "Aphra Behn is the first known female professional author in English. Oroonoko, while far from the first English novel written by a woman, is both one of the earliest English novels and one of the earliest by a woman."  Yet in the article First novel in English, it's argued that Oroonoko may be the first English novel ever, a possibility largely dependent on the definition of "novel". This discrepancy needs to be worked out by somebody who actually knows something about the subject. Mr. Billion 09:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, gosh.  I can't imagine the hubris necessary for writing First novel in English.  The more you study the emergence of the novel, the more diffuse the definition of "novel" gets and the farther back the "first" goes.  Does it require prose?  If so, then it's quite possible that the prose Romances of the 13th c. can get the title.  Does it not require prose, but, instead, require interlocking episodes and a plot?  If so, Tristram Shandy isn't a novel, while a number of verse Romances are.  No matter, though:  No matter how you cut it, Oroonoko is not the first.  The reason is simple:  Behn wrote another novel before it.  It's a long novel, and so people who read lightly never approach it, but Love Letters Between a Nobleman and His Sister predates Oroonoko and surpasses it in quality.  "First novel" goes way back, or at least can't be nailed down.  "First written by a woman" goes back before Behn as well.  The error is on First novel in English, and primarily, in my opinion, in the attempt of such an article.  Sorry if I'm thundering, but it's simply futile to announce the first novel in English, because one has to define the novel, first, and no definition I've seen (or that J. Paul Hunter, or that Ian Watt, or that Wayne C. Booth, or that Ian MacKellan has seen) works.  Geogre 02:44, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first? 

message: The current article on Aphra Behn is somewhat lamentable.  There are any number of suppositions and myths about her that survive.  While I don't claim to be the world's leading expert on Behn, I am currently reading a year 2000 scholarly biography, and there will need to be corrections and alterations in anything biographical to do with Behn.  E.g. no one is sure if she ever went to Surinam under any conditions, but it's extremely unlikely (to the point of certainty, almost) that what she says in the novel itself is just another fiction designed to sell books:  she was not there as a child, and it's doubtful that she ever went there at all.  Let's just say that if we report her presence, we'd do very well to indicate the speculative nature of the information.  (As I'm sure anyone who reads this knows, it's a commonplace for authors to pretend to be witnesses to their fictions, to have "discovered" lost papers (Robinson Crusoe) or to be merely translating from a book no one has ever heard of (Geoffrey of Monmouth and Historium Regna Brittanicae), so Behn saying that she was there is no reason to think she was there.)  Geogre 19:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biographical Details: Watch That Space 

message: Because the silly quarrel with User:Dr Zen is now antique, and because the contents of this article have changed dramatically in the last two months, I am considering refactoring this talk page, removing the tiff above and allowing for easy reading of comments pertaining to the planned nomination for Featured Article status.  If there are objections, please offer them.  After refactoring, a note will be placed indicating that there is old discussion to be seen in the history diffs. Geogre 21:30, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice of refactoring plans 

message: Thanks to User:Niteowlneils for the cleaning.  All were helps. Geogre 04:35, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanks 

message: First, Behn does state that the old king keeps multiple wives.  Second, that was a feature of oriental tales in general.  Third, Behn refers to him as a patriarch.  Fourth, Behn elsewhere invoked exoticism and polygamy (as many Restoration figures did).  The reason I rolled back the deletion of the deletion, though, is simply because I don't understand the objection.  Is there some doubt that the king in Africa is polygamous?  Is there some doubt that this is a polygamy recognizable to the English as Old Testament?  Is the objection to the linking of the two, instead of a link to Romance tradition (which frequently had the Turk's harem as a thrilling/dangerous alternate universe of polygamy and decadence)?  Please explain the objection to the reference.  It's not a terribly important link to make, but removing only that is puzzling without some reasoning. Geogre 01:25, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Testament style polygamy 

message: The article has been fairly carefully designed to have illustrations aligned with the text, and that is how the article passed wp:fac.  Please do not mess up all of that by putting a big infobox on the page.  I have no problem with the box being here, on the talk page to the article, but I almost certainly will revert if I see it knocking the text loopy and messing up all the formatting on the article's page.  I see very little that will be gained from a box there (as opposed to here) and much that will be harmed.  Let those who believe in boxes on the main pages of articles construct their articles with that in mind, but let no one have the hubris necessary to destroy the looks of an article in the name of a box's "consistency."  Geogre 18:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the novels project suggests that the novel box might not be appropriate on all pages, I've removed the template.  This is not meant as an act of war, but merely because I don't want the page showing up in the "box needed" category.  Again, if the box were on the talk page -- and if there were a single line at the top of the article saying, "see the talk page for classifications" or something similar, I wouldn't have any problems, but this particular article was promoted on FAC partially on the strength of how well illustrated it was, and I do worry about the boxes messing up the formatting.  Geogre 00:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NO boxes, please! 

message: The reason it's necessary is that it is an important piece of evidence in the argument against Behn intending the novel as a racial examination.  The information comes from Todd, and it's not controversial: in a time a century before spontaneous generation was debunked, when Mendel wasn't around, when people still believed that acquired characteristics could be passed on to children, the Europeans didn't have an idea about racial characteristics (a foolish concept that would come along 150 years later).  It's important evidence, because it means that Behn couldn't be arguing about freeing black African slaves, since she didn't understand "black" as a single type.  Geogre 11:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parenthesis on race 

message: Could someone who knows for sure the pronounciation of the title of the book throw in the IPA Pronounciation of the title?  Thanks, zappa.jake (talk) 02:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that no one really can know the exact pronunciation.  Most people today will read it as a homophone of "Orinoco," but Janet Todd's suggestion that the name comes from "Oroondates" would give emphasis to 2nd syllable.  Therefore, how you pronounce it depends upon whether you think Behn was making an allegorical name or a derivative name.  That said, orthography in the 1680's was generally stable, but it was still likely that she would not have given two O's unless she meant it.  So...no one really knows, because we don't have (to my knowledge) any contemporary rhyming poetry with the name in the final position.  Geogre 04:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronounciation 

message: This is basically directed at Geogre. Could it be possible to bump the image sizes up a notch? I happened to glance at the French version and the larger sizes made a big difference to me. I think the article looks much better with larger sized images.--SeizureDog 04:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine, really.  When I sent the article through Featured Article Candidacy, reviewers were on a "make them small" kick.  At the same time, the resolution of the reader's monitor is difficult to anticipate.  One rather nasty person was going around scaling down pictures to 50 px on a side because, she said, they "broke" her computer at higher resolution (she was using a computer in a school library that was running INternet Explorer 3 and had CGA-size screen resolution).  Therefore, there isn't really a correct image size, but I agree that most people have higher resolutions and therefore need larger image sizes.  Geogre 13:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I've increased the image sizes on the major images to 200 pixels on the X-axis.  The minor illustrations (the .gif of Willoughby, e.g.) are still small.  Let me know if they should bump up some more.  Their sizes were altered by someone after the article passed FAC anyway -- not sure why -- to make them smaller (possibly a school library editor like the one I mention above).  Geogre 14:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image sizes

message: Great article, and kudos to those who worked on it. I just thought I'd point out that the stage adaptations of the novel have been the subject of a great deal of commentary by modern scholars. See for example Performing Blackness on English Stages, 1500-1800 by Virginia Mason Vaughan for the impact on British drama and Demons of Disorder: Blackface Minstrels and Their World by Dale Cockrell for the American influence. If I'm remembering  him correctly, Cockrell argues that the play (like other blackface depictions of black characters such as The Padlock) was an important precursor to the stereotypical minstrel show characters of the 19th century. He gives statistics for its performance if I remember correctly; unfortunately, I'm in the midst of a move, so my books are boxed up. At any rate, it might be worth noting that this was a blackfaced role; it's not entirely evident from the article or even the image (it kind of looks like the guy's stepping into the shadows). — Amcaja 14:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Truly fantastic and invaluable points.  I was so focused on the novel that I only let in the play in terms of its import to the novel's interpretation and popularity.  I will add that it was a blackface role.  Also, we need an article on Oroonoko (play), as the play's cuts and interpolations seem to be a real barometer of national moods.  I'm not sure how the play can be linked to the exaggerations and ridicule of minstrelsy, though, as the play was presented as pathetic through the 19th century.  In the novel, Oroonoko is a European prince with black skin.  His words and actions are very Jacobite and cavalier.  It should at least be worth a "See also" somewhere -- this link between the play and blackface.  Geogre 15:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Like I said, the book by Cockrell is unfortunately packed away at the moment. I remember him spending more time on American renditions of The Padlock, but he does cover Oroonoko too. And, yes, I heartily agree that we need an article on Southerne's play. Get to work, Geogre! — Amcaja 15:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You think you've got it bad, I spent a score of years building up an impressive academic library, and then I moved to a place (get this) with no book cases.  I've snuck in about 50 of my books from long term storage, but when I really want something that I know to document it, I either have to go to a moderately poor academic library or to long term storage, in the 40 C heat, and stand in a tin box going through cardboard.  Geogre 16:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stage adaptations 

message: I want to thank the host of dedicated editors and administrators who helped keep an eye on this humble article while it was featured on the main page.  Believe it or not, I think the article received relatively little vandalism and several helpful edits.  I would like to think that was a sign of vandal respect, but it's probably vandal boredom, as they're not generally fans of the early English novel.  There are too many people to thank to extend thanks individually, but thanks to all who helped.  Whenever an article gets on the main page, whatever editors were responsible for the main work on the article experience the longest 24 hours they'll have in a long time.  It's made much easier by knowing that we can all trust each other to keep their eyes peeled and senses sharp.  Geogre 03:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Thank you!''' 

message: Aphra Behn is conjectural.  We aren't sure of her maiden name.  If it was Johnson, and if she was from Devon, then it is most likely that she is the Aphara born in July 1640.  If it wasn't Johnson, if she was the semi-noblewoman long thought, then her birth year is still 1640, but I don't have the month at hand.  I think the case for Aphra Johnson is persuasive, and I don't think anyone really argues for the semi-noble Aphra anymore, but I think we should be as conservative as possible and indicate uncertainty.  It's alright for Britanica to boldly assert the speculative, but we don't have to follow them.  Geogre 18:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Our Aphra Behn seems pretty certain and doesn't discuss the other (non-Johnson) possibilities at all.  Does this article need birth and death dates?  Isn't a date of publication is enough?  Or "aged 47/48"? -- ALoan (Talk) 15:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd thoughts about birth 

message: i'm drunk.  hope that comment brightened your day.  82.82.182.157 14:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  what about.... 

message: '1688 was a time of massive anxiety in English politics. Charles II died, and James II came to the throne'
The above happened in 1685. Great article and good read though. 88.109.194.203 00:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As my mentor would say, "D'oh!"  I had meant "Charles II had died."  That missing word is important.  Thank you for the compliment.  Geogre 01:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical significance