Talk:Punk ideologies

message: Says who? If that was true, 95% of this article would make no sense. I'm a left wing punk and am not libertarian at all. Was Crass libertarian? Or Mensi of Angelic Upstarts? Or Johnny Ramone? I don't think so. --188.2.25.46 (talk) 12:11, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Punk ideologies are inherently libertarian" 

message: Who wrote this?  It makes no sense of any kind.  It should be deleted.  Talking about the politics of an Art movement, is like talking about the viscosity of cheese.  Please take this out.
*Politics has played, and continues to play, a large role in the punk subculture. To deny that would be historical revisionism. I agree that the article could be vastly improved, but it definitely should not be deleted.Spylab 21:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. And it might make sense to talk about the viscosity of cheese. I mean, compare nacho cheese to melted swiss. Definitely some differences in viscosity there. Seriously though, punk is not an art movement, it is a cultural movement that includes art (mainly in the form of music, but also visual and written). It also inlcudes politics, lifestyle, language etc. And politics has played and continues to play a huge role in shaping the culture. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 06:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to my uncle, a (formerly professional) gourmet chef, the viscosity of varieties of cheese is actually very important. You wouldn't use brie with the same consistency as swiss. Similarly, the politics of the punk movement/subculture is very important. ~Switch t 08:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Thirded. You can't separate punk from politics. The main difference between punk rock and other brands of rock is the socio-political message. NorsemanII 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This makes no sense 

message: The term 'punk' was coined pre 70s and a definitive punk lifestyle grew around the situationists of the 50s before punk rock existed. This article focusses too much on the stereotypes of punk rather than what punk was really about. Difficult to define I know but one thing is for sure, Punk promoted dressing how you wanted, not by looking the fucking same as every other trendy "punk".
*Any sources to back that up? How could there be a "punk lifestyle" before punk rock existed? The punk subculture got its name from punk rock.Spylab 21:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punk did not start in the 70s 

message: Didn't there used to be section on racism, sexism and homophobia? Those seem like important issues to address. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 04:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important sections removed? 

message: This article is worthless. 70s punk ideology is entirely different to American Hardcore bands' in the 80s... and everything varies from band to band. Some punk musicians were junkies, where as some hardcore musicians were straight edge.... where as some were neither particually anti-or pro drug use. Yet everything is just slapped together... into one big article of rubbish.
And this?...
:"Punk music has evolved and mutated to create a diversity of sounds. Punks may enjoy the earthy harmony of folk-punk, the nostalgic (but often still relevant) anthems of 80s peace-punk and anarcho-punk, the more abrasive offerings of hardcore punk and its sub-genres (i.e. crust punk, grindcore, metalcore, thrash metal, power violence) or the raunchy, party hearty spirit of garage punk. In general, punk music is loud, fast, and usually didactic. The loud and fast sound is meant to express impatience, frustration, discontent, anger and aggression. Punks believe the state of popular music reflects the major record labels' influence on artists, as well as artists' own desire for recognition and wealth overshadowing their creativity."
Is a joke too. The article needs redirecting to punk rock. - Deathrocker 16:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr bassist, uhm being a punk marxist is an oxy moron, because punk is anti-corporatism and anti-government. And Marxism is ultimately controlled by the government (in the name of the people only).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.80.134 (talk) 05:30, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Moronic article

message: I was in a hardcore punk band in the early 80's that was slightly popular and signed (I don't want to say the name). I always considered myself a pro-capitalist, anti-welfare, anti-government intervention, pro-individualism free market anarchist (or what is also called anarcho-capitalism). I wrote about half the lyrics and though they weren't explicitly pro-capitalist they had some anti-welfare state themes. Reviewers didn't seem to pick up on that though. Are there any bands that say they're pro-capitalist or anarcho-capitalist? It's hard for me to believe that all anarchist punks are communist. To me, punk is about individualism and rejection of societal control over the individual. I don't see anything punk at all about communism, which is the antithesis of individualism. Where are the capitalist punks?
:You would probably do better in the "Libertarian" section, but you would have to say why you are if you want it to be in there, and it needs to be sourced to something other than this conversation (like the band or your website, as long as it can be established that it really is your's. Anyways, most anarchists (including myself) vehemently disagree with your claim as an "anarcho"-capitalist, as anarchism has historically been an anti-capitalist movement and philosophy. So that's why there aren't pro-capitalists in the anarchist section. And if you can't differentiate between the communism of anarchists and the communism of authortarian commies (like Marxists) then I suggest you read up some more on traditional anarchist writing like Goldman, Berkman, Kropotkin, etc. Also read The Politics of Individualism. That last statement comes across as condescending I think, but I wasn't trying to make it that way. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 07:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever. This isn't the place for this discussion anyway. All I will say is you don't understand what it's all about. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 04:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: You are correct. Punk isn't really concerned with a specific position on any spectrum, but the core values of Punk put it squarely in opposition to Communism and the idea that Punk is specifically anti-Capitalist is nonsense. It was the hippy counter-culture movement that was anti-capitalist and punks were staunchly opposed to hippies. Most biker gangs, considered a form of Punk, are the definition of anarcho-capitalist (even if they don't always practise what they preach). These pages, like many on Wikipedia, are being edited and controlled by left-wing activists re-writing history to conform to their revisionist ideals. Remember, these are the same people who believe the Nazis were capitalists and that capitalism is a subset of Fascism (literally makes no sense). Literally every punk I know, if they have an opinion on capitalism vs communism, is pro-capitalist and anti-communist. Des22z (talk) 07:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Anarcho-capitalist punks?

message: What do you think? Mitsos 20:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do we really need all these tags???? 

message: Some non-american bands would be nice... Actually, other bands than Bad Religion, NOFX, Dead Kennedys + friends would be nice.
--Yeah awhile ago I added some Rise Against songs but for some reason some stupidass deleted most of them. - Razorhead March 29 2007
Irrelevant for discussion. If you want non-American bands it's very easy to add them. --NervousDave (talk) 23:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to songs 

message: Does anybody even take them seriously? Why include their criticism here. I could make up a funny religion, and criticize everything for failing to live up to it... would that make it notabl? I could include Frank Chu's Criticism of Punk somewhere, with stuff about punk being a zegnatronic conspiracy to destroy all mankind.
:Now, that would be funny.  Joie de Vivre 00:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  " Aristasians " 

message: Why does the reference to James Dean Bradfield from the Manic Street Preachers, in the subject socialist/communist punks, keeps getting removed? He was an outspoken and notable punk, in politics and lifestyle, in the 90's his and his bands music could also be classified as punk, though they steerd away from their punk orgins since the release of their album the Holy Bible. But the Manics reported that there new album is grasping back at its punk roots. Although the Manics may be considered an alternative rock band, it doenst leave out the fact that they once where punk. And if thats not a enough to list him, then i think ex-punks like Garry Bushell should be removed too. 
As from the political standpoint, James Dean was a open supporter for Scargill's Socialist Labour Party, writes straight forward controversial political lyrics (even more straight forward then most punks mentioned here), and is a vivid admirerer of Cuba and Fidel Castro. The Manics can be seen as the most popular and most outspoken pro-communist punkformation in existance today, and James Dean as their vocalist and writer, that should be noted under the the subject of socialist/communist punks.
Thanks
--ddxt301 13:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of James Dean Bradfield 

message: It's a long shot, I know.
This announcement is for the person who made this edit to Punk ideologies.  The edit created the Criticisms of punk ideology section, and included a reference to Aristasian criticism of punk ideology.   
To concerned parties: the Miss Martindale article has been nominated for deletion.  As this editor seemed to be knowledgable on this topic, I invite them to  weigh in with a vote.  Thanks!  Joie de Vivre 00:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: For the editor who added the "Criticisms of punk ideology" section, in January of 2006

message: Conservative Punks? Rather ironic.  If you call yourself a "right-wing punk" not only does that make no sense, but it labels that individual as a poser.   I dont care who says "I'm a captialist punk",  THERE STILL IS NO SUCH THING.   The only reason alot of punks are assoicated with left wing is because they understand the lesser of two evils.  Conservativepunk.com is one of the most ridiclous websites i have ever seen.  the only "conservative punks" there are, are the punks that also made the genre, Christian Punk. This is why punk rock is on the radio now, its people like them that, ruined such a great music scene for the rest of us.
Is it really that important? It's an aesthetic style, not a religious doctrine. But before we get carried away...
:This doesn't really seem like the proper forum for this sort of discussion, but for sake of defending the article, I wish to address your concerns.  Libertarian "capitalism" is left-wing, statist capitalism is right-wing.  Read "Left and Right: The Prospect for Liberty" by Murray Rothbard.  Also look into the writings of the left-libertarians such as Roderick T. Long and SEK3.  ConservativePunk (the website) incorrectly conflates conservatism and libertarian "capitalism." Allixpeeke 04:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And since the terms "captialist" and "capitalism" have existed in several forms for centuries, and since Marx coined the term in context of an economic/class system designed to describe communism, the term really doesn't mean anything. And "libertarian" is simply a modern way of expressing classical liberalism, which has nothing to do with left or right as few governments actually practice it. Agreed this conversation is off-topic, but probably more so because the terms "left" and "right" and "conservative" and "liberal" have become so muddied and confused rather than because of any sentimental notions of punk ideology. 173.59.224.169 (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conservative Punk = Oxymoron 

message: May it be replaced by something grammatically correct and objective.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.94.97 (talk) 00:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted the last sentence in the Criticisms section. 

message: I removed the sentence:
 Hacktivism has become an additional method of sabotage (no it hasn't). 
as it was not encyclopedic at all. If you want to dispute a statement, put a  tag after it. As it stands, this article is in need of citations, but I don't know enough about punk rock to do it myself. Richard Jackson (talk) 16:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hacktivism 

message: I separated social liberalism from socialism and communism, since these were lumped together as "leftist ideologies". That may be the point of view in US Republican circles, but in much of the world social liberalism is viewed as mainstream, in the centre of the political spectrum. To avoid bias, I've rephrased the sentence as "...associated with social liberalism or leftist ideologies such as socialism and communism" since socialism and communism are clearly left wing, while social liberalism is not.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.35.54 (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political Bias 

message: What about a section on pacifist punks? They differ quite much from mainstream pacifism in that they often support violence in self defence as well as violence against inanimate objects. // Liftarn (talk) 12:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pacifism 

message: The lede, as currently written, contains a number of disjointed statements that do not flow well, they are also opinions, not statements of fact, and are not necessarily supported by text of the article itself.  The paragraph about "selling out," in particular, reads like some editor's opinion.  The lede does not necessarily have to have references, according to MOS, but it should not make statements that are not supported by sourced content in the body of the article. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 18:50, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The lede 

message: The anarchy article states that anarchy is anti-state so it can not be left-wing. And Nazism is National Socialism and controlled corporations and private business (wasn't run by it), so it is technically left wing in the modern vernacular. 98.117.80.134 (talk) 06:14, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anarchism and Nazism should be removed from the left-wing and right-wing sections respectively 

message: Libertarianism cannot be accurately described as right or left.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.114.107 (talk) 00:59, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The liberatarianism being referred to in this article is the North American conservative, capitalist form of libertarianism, so it is accurately described as right wing.Spylab (talk) 12:44, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libertarianism should be removed from the right wing heading. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Since a while, I've seen Dee Dee Ramone supposedly to be a staunch conservative in his Wikipedia page, and he figures as a conservative in here too. It's known Johnny Ramone was a conservative because his speech on Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, as well a lot of people corroborating that, but the only source that confirms Dee Dee was a conservative is an interview to Marky Ramone in which he states that. However, it's also known Marky had a fewd with another bandmates, like Joey and CJ, the latter being categorized as a "bigot" by him. So I think that Dee Dee wouldn't be a conservative but an apolitical.
--Paburo fg 00 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was really Dee Dee Ramone a conservative? 

message: — Assignment last updated by CommDocBDS (talk) 12:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Communication Studies

message: Is it just me or is the introduction wildly confusing? Seems to read that punks are pro-gentrification, which I somehow doubt  Ceaceacea (talk) 20:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confused Introduction  

message: I believe we need to edit this. The Dead Kennedys didn't write that to attack conservative punks as a whole, but rather at the members of groups like the National Front that started to attend their concerts and become ironic fans due to them missing the satire of "Kill the Poor".
--86.11.247.35 (talk) 16:17, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" mentioned in conservative punk