Talk:Syro-Malabar Church

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover)  ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 08:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Syro-Malabar Catholic Church →  – Syro-Malabar Church is WP:COMMONNAME and can be seen in the ngram and WP:CONCISE similar to Latin Church and Maronite Church. Moreover Vatican documents refer to the church as “Syro-Malabar Church” -
*https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2017/10/10/171010d.html
*https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2011/october/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20111017_syro-malabar-church.html
*https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/letters/2021/documents/papa-francesco_20210703_lettera-siromalabarese.html
*More results
71.201.78.227 (talk) 02:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

text: natemup (talk) 11:56, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 7 April 2023 

message: :Syro-Malabar Catholic Church →  – The term is WP:Concise,WP:COMMONhere, and the website contains the naming too http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/, so the name is official . There is no naming convention so any naming should be based on Wikipedia policy. Manabimasu (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Pinging  as they were also involved in the previous consesus. Logosx127 (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think I am qualified enough to comment on this. I was just getting involved with moving pages. Had I seen that discussion today, I wouldn't have participated. Scorpions1325 (talk) 15:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: My dispute is largely based on WP:CONCISE, WP:COMMON and WP:PRECISE. I think a discussion can be done based on these conventions as it was previously handled. Logosx127 (talk) 15:28, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  These rationales were raised in the discussion immediately above this one, and it returned a "no move". Picking up a dispute that was carried on by an IP during the duration of your sock block does not look great (neither does moving the page without consensus). I recommend dropping the stick. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you associating the IP with me? Whatsoever, you haven't addressed the arguments. I am simply relisting the previous discussion started by Manabimasu which resulted in the consensus in favour of the more brief and more common title.Logosx127 (talk) 15:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I am. And please see recent reporting on this subject that demonstrates that "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church" is used on first reference, with "Syro-Malabar Church" as an acceptable term on subsequent reference: Vatican News, National Catholic Register, Indian Express. While "Syro-Malabar Church" is a very common name (and an officially accepted one), it is not so exceedingly more common than the official name as to warrant using it instead of the official full name. It's also not evident that it is more common, and you'd need good evidence to show that. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly where WP:PRECISE applies. We don't need to be extremely precise in naming an article. You have already accepted that Syro-Malabar Church is equivalent to Syro-Malabar Catholic Church. You have also admitted that the shorter title is more common and you haven't argued for an ambiguity in the title. I think the dispute is over by now if we could agree to restore the article title as Syro-Malabar Church based on WP:COMMON, WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE and keep Syro-Malabar Catholic Church in the first line. Logosx127 (talk) 16:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title dispute 

message: @Pbritti The source that you have used gives 1599 too as seen the gbooks summary. And removing the Chaldean Catholic metropolitans doesn't make sense considering the fact that the pre-hierarchy bishops are already listed. Logosx127 (talk) 06:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that there appears to be reasonable debate about when, exactly, the church entered into its present communion with the Catholic Church. I have deferred to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Churchs preferred date, which stood as the standard on the article for some time, but I am willing to see what evidence you have to the contrary. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The SM Church's communion (or merger) with the Catholic Church occured in the sixteenth century after the Schism of 1552 in the COE. I intend to speak on the basis of the books which have described in detail about that church. Synod of Diamper in 1599 led to the merger of the SMC with RC latin padroado. The effect of Coonan Cross Oath of 1653 is controversial, except for the fact that it was against the padroado, and most of the modern historians deny the idea of SMC breaking communion with the RC. The status of the SMC post-1599 was restored in 1662, except for the padroado being replaced with propaganda fide. The current structure of the SMC dates back only to 1887 and I am more inclined towards this date. Logosx127 (talk) 19:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately, that was between myself and a sockpuppet/DE, so I would not treat that discussion with much weight. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't cherry pick the date of your own choice. The discussion mentioned above seems to have favoured 1923 by majority opinion. Logosx127 (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Three of the parties involved in the last discussion were socks, which you understand is someone using multiple IPs or accounts to manipulate discussion. You seem to have cherry-picked your own preferred dates here (and used errant terminology and MOS in your repeated reversions). Please demonstrate why your preferred dating arrangement is what we should use. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I am of the view that you are totally misinterpreting my edits, given the fact that I have added a series of dates insted of one. Cherry picking is its opposite thing and that what you've been doing by striking all but 1662. Logosx127 (talk) 19:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  You struck the 1662 date  without discussion. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you to focus on to the current version instead of cherry-picking one of the past edits. Logosx127 (talk) 02:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  The superior sources favor the 1662 date. Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, it will be restored. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Superior sources in your opinion. In my opinion they are either Catholic pov sources or tertiary sources with the authors having little or no expertise on the SMC history. On the other hand, I favour sources like Perczel and Brock who are universally accepted experts on Syro-Malabar Christianity. Logosx127 (talk) 03:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Already provided in the article with inline citations. Logosx127 (talk) 17:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No, what do the sources say. Give a quote. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Logosx127 (talk) 01:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only date that is supported by either of these quotes is 1887. Literally the only date that would qualify is 1887. You should remove all the others. That is it. 50 AD is for Saint Thomas Christian’s (a broader body that is not the Syro-Malabar Church). 1552 is the communion of a portion of the Church of the East with the Catholic Church (not even explicitly mentioned in either source above). 1599 is also not mentioned. Also, the Syro-Malabar Church is not a denomination—it's part of the Catholic Church. ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:37, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: 50/52 AD is a traditional date claimed all Saint Thomas Christian denominations. So removing it from here alone does not make any sense unless there's a broader discussion concerning all the STC denominations. Most of sources given here provide the traditional date too. The articles of the Catholic Church, Latin C, Eastern Orthodox also show similar datings. At the same time, it's also to be noted that there are some misconceptions in your comment above. Firstly, the STC is not a denomination or church, it is rather a people. Secondly, determining which is a denomination and which is not is yet to be precisely defined. The CC is one of the religious denominations in Christianity, so are the Oriental Orthodox and EO. But there exist another another method of classification where the Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Greek, Russian, Georgian are considered distinctive denominations. In India, SMC is classified as a separate religious denomination within Christianity. Thirdly, the different dates are mentioned in different sources that are already provided. While I support a triad of dates (50–traditional origin, 1552–Conversion to Eastern Catholicism, 1887–Modern structure), I am not in total disapproval of other dates (1599, 1662, 1663, 1896, 1923). Logosx127 (talk) 06:15, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The only date that you have provided a source for something being established or founded is for the date of 1887. Also, no, that is not how denominations work—you would need a very good source to verify that very unusual statement. I am going to correct your errors from your last edit and move to the triad of dates. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well. I don't agree with you on that totally and I have reverted some of 'your errors' that I've found. Logosx127 (talk) 06:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

text: @Pbritti The discussion is to be done here, NOT in my talkpage. Logosx127 (talk) 15:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right, which is why I left a warning there. The discussion can continue here. By the way, the Peshitta article on Brittanica fails to verify the claim that it is used by the Syro-Malabar. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In the similar fashion I can reciprocate by putting a warning on your talk page too. But I am not into it as it's not going to solve the dispute. Let a third  uninvolved editor evaluate the discussion and edits and issue warning if proper. Logosx127 (talk) 15:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Well, the Britannica source says: . The SMC is by definition a Syriac Church and therefore the source. Considering it being a generalised citation, I have added another source which explicitly mentions the SMC. Logosx127 (talk) 16:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

text: The underlying issue within the dispute is the fact that I have direct working knowledge on the topic but you don't. You entirely rely on Catholic tertiary sources accessible for you and that's why you are getting easily misled by these handful of tertiary sources. None of the sources that you previously mentioned says "the Syro-Malabar Church began in 1662 year" either. The church website and numerous sources in the article gives the 52 AD date for the foundation of the church. Brock gives a Sixteenth century date and Perczel gives 1887. Meanwhile I totally disagree with the 1662 date due to a number of reasons, first of which is that it's simply incorrect. Logosx127 (talk) 16:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute dated 7 February  

message: What I understand as your pov is that you recognise the Catholic Church as a denomination and the various Eastern Catholic Churches, in your view, are simply subgroups. Well I don't agree with that pov. Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination. Similarly each of the ECCs is a denomination. Maronites comprise a particular denomination of Christians in the Middle East, similarly Chaldeans, Syriacs, Melkites. The Wikipedia definitions for the word church are given in the disambiguation page church, wherein it is defined as a building of Christian worship, congregation or  denomination. The definition for Christian denomination is given as:  Here, the SMC satisfies all the criteria, (1) it is within Christianity, (2) it is comprised of congregations (parishes/dioceses/provinces), (3) well it has its own distinctive name, (4) it has distinct history from that of the CC, (5) it has a well defined organisation, (6) it has its own leadership (the major archbishop being it's worldwide head), (7) East Syriac theological doctrines, (8) Syro-Malabar Rite liturgy and worship style and most notably Saint Thomas as founder (though legendary). Therefore the SMC is indeed a denomination. Logosx127 (talk) 03:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If , find a reliable source that does so. Otherwise, you're creating your own definition of denomination and making errant claims to fit the Syro-Malabar Church within it (see Begging the question). By the definition given above, the Society of Jesus could be classified as a denomination. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a ridiculous comparison. The SJ isn't a denomination because it is simply a religious monastic organisation. No one is born into it. And, I am not making a brand new definition, it is already given in Wikipedia. I think you thoroughly require an orientation here.Logosx127 (talk) 07:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

text: To list down two of them,the official website says:  KC ZACHARIAH, 2016 says:  (Religious Denominations of Kerala). Logosx127 (talk) 08:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Pbritti Do you want further source quotations. I can do so if you insist. Logosx127 (talk) 04:13, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure! ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, these are some webpages which I found in a brief online search.1 ..2 3 4 5 6 7 8Logosx127 (talk) 17:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: See, this raises an important question: do you think that this is perhaps more likely a common misnomer, or that each sui iuris church is its own denomination, or that it's just the Syro-Malabar? ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously each of the ECCs is a distinct denomination. Maronites, Melkite catholics, Coptic catholics, Ukranian Greek catholics, Syro-Malabarese, Syro-Malankarese and so on. They are Catholic Christian in religion. The SMC officially calls itself a denomination and the state legally accepts it's self designation. Therefore there's no confusion over whether it's a denomination or not.Logosx127 (talk) 10:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

text: I don't need to prove anything of this sort. The church website clearly says that it is a denomination and the state authorities legally accepts it's self designation. Individual opinion, let it be yours or mine, cannot change what's given in the official records and websites. There is nothing more to discuss here on the topic. I have already substantiated my position with the church's official website, and sources which are numerous and precise to the matter. Logosx127 (talk) 14:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia has a tendency to ignore legal definitions like this, especially when they directly contradict scholarly accepted definitions. You're attempting to POV-push, utilizing local definitions extrapolated to a global context. If you want to challenge the precedent set over a decade ago, give it a shot, but don't argue that your solitary disagreement justifies interrupting multiple pages. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That is such a ridiculous argument. Actually your argument mostly applies better to your own POV edits, given the official website, online sources provided here and multitude of sources yet to be included, all supporting my argument. You are unilaterally pushing your POV, which would have been okay if you could support it with some sources atleast. Rather you're just putting vague claims of  and sources, none of which you have been able to provide till now. I think you yourself is the said scholar and sources, if I must guess. Meanwhile catholic historian and orientalist Dietmar Winkler also classifies the SMC as a denomination in the Syriac World (2018). I opt to follow the official website and scholarly sources on this matter. Logosx127 (talk) 18:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you seem convinced that you have stumbled across something with consequences for hundreds of articles, why don't you make note of this at a relevant noticeboard and start a relevant discussion there? ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't feel it's necessary, on the contrary I find my view totally agreeing with existing Wikipedia consensus and style. Catholicism is a religion and the Catholic Church is a denominational family (ecclesiastically, communion) just like the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and/or Protestant. Logosx127 (talk) 18:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you unwilling to raise this elsewhere, considering every other sui iuris church is described as such and not as a denomination? Are you realizing the argument won't stand up to outside scrutiny? ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I have already replied to this before. Logosx127 (talk) 19:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Evidently you are confused about these. You are actually confusing Denominational families (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Church of the East, etc) with actual denominations (Syro-Malabar, Latin, Melkite, Maronite, Chaldean, etc (all part of Catholic denominational family), Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Georgian Orthodox etc. (all being part of Eastern Orthodox denominational family), Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox etc. (All being Oriental Orthodox in denominational family), Church of England, Marthoma Church (belonging to Anglican denominational family)) Denominational families and actual denominations are two different things. Denominational families are aggregates of similar denominations. These denominations can't be mistermed as national churches. Many of these have international jurisdiction and membership. Denomination is determined in terms of common doctrine, liturgy, culture and self-identification. With respect to the Syro-Malabar Church, its official website and governmental records calls it a denomination and there are a multitude of sources available in the public online field as well as academic and scholarly literature, all supporting the fact that the SMC is indeed a denomination and at the same time part of the Catholic Church denominational family. The entire discourse can be made simple with just one question asked, how would a member of the SMC self identify: as a Catholic or as a Syro Malabar Catholic? The answer is: as a Syro-Malabar Catholic. That's the entire point. Religiously and based on communion he is Catholic, but denominationally he is Syro-Malabar Catholic. His religion or denominational family is indeed headed by the pope, but he isn't part of the denomination which is liturgically, culturally and theologically headed by the pope.Logosx127 (talk) 14:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your viewpoint. Let me cite two sources (1 and 2) used in the article Christian denomination to define the concept. According to these sources, the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, Baptist, Presbyterianism, Pentecostalism etc. are major Christian denominations. Most importantly, the Roman Catholic Church is one single denomination headed by the Roman pontiff. I have not found any source that says that it is a loose coalition of 24 completely independent denominations. Do you have any authoritative source that says so? Even for the Eastern Catholic Churches the Pope is the ultimate authority. The patriarchs and major archbishops of Eastern Catholic Churches are of lower rank and subordinate to the Pope. Unfortunately, there seems to be a some confusion on this topic that reflects in available sources, because of which anyone can find sources to support their point of view. Personally, I feel that this discussion needs to take place in a different forum with more visibility. We cannot change the meaning of Christian denomination based on the notions of two or three editors. If you are able to gain consensus in your favour, I'll accept it.--Macinderum (talk) 08:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I totally understand what you are saying, I cannot agree wholly with it. First of all you need to distinguish between denominational family and individual denomination. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church or the Latin Catholic Church is a denominational led by the pope, spiritually, culturally, liturgically and doctrinally. But the remaining 23 Eastern Catholic Churches are distinct churches and denominations which, by recognising the pope as their overall leader, forms a denominational family called the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is unified by common religious faith, and most importantly the pope as overall leader. Meanwhile, each of the Eastern Catholic Churches is united within itself not just by common religious faith and overall leader, but also by common doctrine, culture, liturgy, spirituality and tradition. Hence the Latin and the Eastern Catholic Churches are denominations while the Catholic Church is their denominational family. For example, let's just look into the Syro-Malabar Church. The Syro-Malabar Church has a distinct religious liturgy very different from that used by the pope and the Roman Latin Catholic Church. SMC has its own theology and doctrine. Nestorius is a condemned heretic in the RC Church but he is a venerated saint in the SMC and one of the liturgical prayers is named after him. Rosary, unleavened bread, clerical celibacy are other unique features of the RCC which the ECCs do not follow. For a Western reader, Catholic and Roman Catholic are synonymous, but it's not the case in places where Eastern Catholic Churches are present. This differentiation is more profound in the case of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Church of the East, and many Anglican Churches, like the Church of England and Marthoma Church. At the same time I totally disagree with you on your comment "". It is not about anyone finding some random sources available online. The sources I provided are of atmost important such as the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the Church and legal as well as academic sources. You cannot simply disregard those sources just because you think in a different way or you have a dissenting pov. Hope that's clear. Logosx127 (talk) 12:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: See, if a Christian body is united by a single leader and hierarchy that can (and does) act across all portions of the church [note: it's a single church, unlike in Anglicanism, which Macinderum appears to mistakenly imply has a single "Anglican Church"], that's a single denomination. The pope can impose decisions upon the Syro-Malabar (something the Archbishop of Canterbury can't do to the Episcopal Church in the United States). The Syro-Malabar are a sui iuris church—that is objectively true. Claims they are a denomination are marginal and contradictory. Barring any further support for this solitary attempt to subvert longstanding and widespread consensus, the previous norm should be restored. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I am just following the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the church and official records. I don't have any problem if you wish to continue dictating in a fantasy world. The Catholic Church, as I have already said, is a denominational family led by the Pope. The Latin Church or the Roman Catholic Church is the distinctive denomination led by the pope. The words such as Church, sui juris Church etc. are purely religious or ecclesiastical terminologies which cannot be applied generally. The secular and general terms in use are religion, denominational family and denomination. Here the religion is Christianity, denominational family is the Catholic Church and the denomination is the Syro-Malabar Church. Your comment:  is partially untrue. The pope simply cannot impose his decisions in every field. The bishops are to be appointed by the Patriarch and the Patriarch is the supreme authority on liturgy. That does not mean that pope is devoid of his powers, the pope simply do not have that extend of powers in the ECC's as he does in the Latin Church. Just because a person in charge has authority at different strata, the strata does not get mixed up into one. Authority of the pope as the head of the Roman/Latin Catholic Church (appointment of bishops, legislations, doctrinal and liturgical promulgations etc.) is different from the authority he holds as the Head of the Catholic Church. For another example, the British Monarch is the head of the State of not just the United Kingdom, but also the entire fourteen Commonwealth Realms including Canada, Australia and the New Zealand. He can potentially exercise a wide range of authority, though almost always delegated to the respective Governor Generals. This simply does not mean that those are colonies or devoid of sovereign statehood. Similarly, the Pope enjoys universal jurisdiction throughout the Catholic Church Communion or denominational family. But almost all of the day to day administration of the ECCs (including appointment of bishops, administrators, regular legislations, liturgical promulgations etc.) is undertaken by their patriarchs, who act in their own capacity as 'Head of the Church' and not as some kind of a delegate of the pope. Denomination is not determined by who controls authority (especially outside the Catholic Church denominational family), but by the liturgy, culture, doctrine, spirituality, history and self-identification. The SMC identifies itself as a denomination, state authorities recognise it as such and the authoritative academic sources who study the SMC in detail also classifies it as a denomination. I just do not need to disregard these most important sources in favour of some old, western oriented (the problem is not the fact that these are western, but the inherent confusion they have over the Roman Catholic/Latin denomination with entire Catholic Church denominational family) and non-academic tertiary sources. Logosx127 (talk) 09:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, barring something that firmly demonstrates that this isn't simply a fluke of nomenclature as used in India, you will need consensus in your favor to overturn the preexisting consensus. Given that the Catholic Church is consistently listed as a denomination across over a thousand articles, I please understand a broader consensus would be necessary. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no such consensus as of now in Wikipedia. I have seen multiple pages, files and articles which explicitly and correctly list the Catholic Church as a denominational family. For example see List of Christian denominations, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is listed along with the Roman/Latin and other Eastern Catholic Churches as denominations under the subheading 'Catholic Church' (denominational family).  Note that Roman Catholicism (meaning Catholicism obviously) is listed not as a denomination but as a tradition. Similarly Oriental Orthodoxy is listed as a tradition and Coptic Orthodox as a denomination within it.<Br>I do not think I need to create a new consensus since my view totally consistent with that explicitly favoured here in Wikipedia. However there are obviously a number of editors here, including you, who confuses the Catholic Church with the Roman/Latin Catholic Church and cannot differentiate between denominational family and denomination. You simply cannot disregard the OFFICIAL WEBSITE and the official and academic records to foster your POV. Logosx127 (talk) 14:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Roman Catholicism is listed as a “tradition” because wikipedia is a secular source. Polish National Church or Old Catholic Churches are an example. These churches do not accept the primacy of the pope but keep liturgical aspects. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 22:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia already agrees, no matter what your POV is. . Logosx127 (talk) 00:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see, you think sui iuris is as much autonomy as an autocephalous church. Interesting, but not true. Anyhow, you again failed to get support here and found two editors who actively disagreed. Let it go or find somewhere else to take it up. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The SMC has already been listed as a denomination in numerous Wikipedia articles and your disapproval or another random user, who wakes up from their long slumber just inorder to put a disapproval is not going to change this fact. And stop putting your words into my mouth. What I have said is what I have said, the SMC is indeed a denomination. If you want to prove otherwise, create consensus elsewhere and come back.Logosx127 (talk) 07:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What would your response be to 14 eparchy articles recognizing the Catholic Church as the denomination of the Syro-Malabar Church? Or to the Handbook of Denominations–"the gold standard for reference works about religious bodies in America"–describing the Latin, Syro-Malabar, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Syriac Catholic, and Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches all as part of the same denomination (the Catholic Church)? It would seem that references to the Syro-Malabar Church as a denomination are dismissed by scholars of Christian denominations. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: With this latest reply of yours, I have come to the conclusion that there's no point in a discussion with you as your arguments are seemingly cunning and ridiculous. All these  were actually put by you yourself very recently as proven from    This proves its simply your personal, biased and isolated POV and original research. If you were honestly looking for the existing Wikipedia consensus, you should have considered List of Christian denominations, and Christian denomination for reference, were the Syro-Malabar Church has been already listed as a denomination. If you are looking outside for reliable sources, the tertiary sources are of much less value compared to academic secondary sources such as the Syriac World (2019), an extremely important reliable source used as the main source in multiple articles in Wikipedia, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is mentioned as a denomination. Thirdly, the SMC's own OFFICIAL WEBSITE too holds itself to he a denomination. This makes all your arguments as baseless as a house of cards, especially taking your own edits and masquerading those as result of consensus. If you genuinely want to change the existing Wikipedia consensus and list the Catholic Church as a denomination instead of Christian tradition/denominational family and the SMC as a non-denomination instead of the present status of denomination, you should first discuss on relevant articles and spaces elsewhere where you would get better visibility and make corresponding changes in the consensus. If you do so, you can potentially change this article in the similar fashion. But until then, the SMC will remain a denomination, no matter what your POV is. Logosx127 (talk) 23:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Well, that's a good move. Let's follow the consensus. But I believe it would have been better if you had opened the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity where it would have been visible to a larger audience. Logosx127 (talk) 14:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I encouraged you to open a discussion elsewhere six days ago. I selected the forum with the highest likelihood of expert editors participation. Thus far, three editors have disagreed with you. So, I'd say we should follow the consensus, too. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not under a biased title for sure. As I've already said, how'd you expect a Catholic to say that his church isn't one? Logosx127 (talk) 15:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Look at WP:OR. No reliable source considers sui-iuris churches to be separate denominations.207.96.32.81 (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: SM Church: Denomination or not