Talk:Aniconism

message: Why don't we have anything on the iconoclastic movement in Byzantine religious life?  That was arguably a more significant aniconic movement than the Protestant Reformation (in terms of how significant its aniconism was, not in terms of the total impact of the movement, obviously).  I don't really know enough about the subject to write this myself, but if need be I bet I could synthesize something from other Wikipedia articles.  I'm hoping that with the influx of traffic from the Muhammed Cartoons thing, someone better suited to the task will fix this omission for me, though.
Zabieru 05:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually you can find more information about that at Iconoclasm.  Possibly the articles could be merged.  Schizombie 02:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I saw that article.  I don't think a merge is appropriate in this case, as per my vote below.  I'd like to see a 'Byzantine Iconoclasm (main article at)' section...  In fact, I'll go work on that right now.  If the vote comes out in favor of a merge, it shouldn't be too much work to pull.  Zabieru 06:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, no merger.  Iconoclasm includes destroying other people's images.  That's what the Taliban did to the Buddha statues in Afghanistan.  Aniconism is a regulation imposed by a religion on its followers (or its god(s)) but not necessarily imposed on others.   Granted, some groups have done both (such as early biblical Hebrews destroying Canaanite statues or Christian missionaries destroying Native American Indian items) but I think the distinction shoud be retained.  Rooster613 14:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Section's in.  If anyone can improve it, I'd love to see that.  My sentence structure is a bit turgid, I'll be the first to admit.  Also, while I'm opposed to a total merge, I think we should merge the section here on the Reformation, which contains some information not in the one on the Iconoclasm page, with the section on the Reformation at Iconoclasm, and re-do the section here in line with what I just did for Byzantine iconoclasm.  I'm reluctant to do any more cross-editing between the two pages while the merge vote is still going on, though.  Comments?  Zabieru 07:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't like to see important topics like Byzantine iconoclasm submerged into more general summary articles: the information starts getting lost. It is also inevitable that overviews bring a certain amount of POV perspective, so shouldn't suck in more focused articles. If you want to know about Byzantine iconoclasm in its historical context, you should be able to find it out without wading through a load of stuff about the Reformation (or the Taliban); you can then move on to this useful general discussion of aniconism if you want to. Myopic Bookworm 10:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Byzantine iconoclasm

message: "until the begining of our era" - ? When's that then? Whose era? Anyone know, please?
81.151.28.249 20:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Beginning of our era

message: The footnote numbering in the Judaism section is messed up due to new notes being added, resulting in duplicate numbers.  In several cases I changed it to using parentheses for this reason.  In one case incorrect coding blanked out the quote being quoted -- I fixed that.  But I suggest putting refs. in parentheses instead of note links until the edits on this page die down somewhat and we reach some sort of consensus on the text.  Then somebody can go through and number the notes consecutively.   For Bible refs. and Shulchan Arukh, I think it is easier for people to follow if you just put chapter and verse in parentheses.  Opinions?  Rooster613 18:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the <ref> tags auto-numbered? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Footnoting in Judaism section

message: Is it undue weight if sections for some religions in this article become much larger than sections for other religions in this article?  I'm not sure that's the right interpretation of how undue weight is supposed to be avoided.  However, if one section does become much more sizeable, should a separate article be created for it, e.g. Aniconism in Islam? Schizombie 23:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Undue weight?

message: It has been proposed that this article be merged with iconoclasm. I disagree because the two articles are similar yet distinct. As I see it, Aniconism would be the philosophical opposition to icons, while Iconoclasm would be the active opposition to icons; it literally means "icon smashing" or something similar. Perhaps some material from each can be moved to the other with this in mind, thus avoiding some duplication, but the articles themselves should remain distinct. Wesley 05:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that we could do a better job of differentiating the two, starting with the differences being discussed here. Wesley 17:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Since it looks like we all agree not to merge them, I'm removing the merge proposal tags from the page. Wesley 17:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposed merge with [[iconoclasm]] 

message: :Since you mentioned it, the Baha'i section could use some further clarification I think.  From what is written they don't seem to have a belief in aniconism - restricting who can see certain depictions of specific human beings is not prohibiting depictions of human beings. Schizombie 07:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they do have a prohibition against depicting the Bab and Bah'u'llah (in addition to restricting who sees the actual portraits) but I'm not a Baha'i so somerbody else should verify this.  Rooster613 15:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Rooster613, it's not exactly Aniconism, but is kind of related.  For example, Baha'is can view the image, but only with respect (and putting the image up is not considered respectful).  I've updated the section that deals more with it.  However, Baha'is are asked not to draw or act as any of the Manifestations of God which include the Bab, and Baha'u'llah as well as Jesus, Muhammad, Moses and others since it would be lowering the station of those propehets; I would classify this as Aniconism, if I understand the term correctly. Thanks for looking into this, and trying to understand it.  --Jeff3000 21:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying this, Jeff3000.  Since, you are a Baha'i and I am not, I'll go with whatever you decide.  Perhaps you should add a ref to the fact that although there is a pic of Bah'u'llah on the Baha'u'llah page, it is at the bottom precisely because Baha'is do not want to view it in a non-pilgrimage context?  Rooster613 15:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Baha'i section

message: The previous definition was found too restrictive, concerning only artists as image producers and human beings as the only subject of aniconism: Aniconism is the conviction that artists should not depict human beings. This conviction can be found in several religions and cultures. / Abjad 05:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expanded definition

message: I've switched the request for expansion to a request for attention as the article is already nearly 32kb. Hope that's okay. David Kernow 15:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attention rather than expansion 

message: There's two different kinds being used in the article - the kind with links in square brackets [ ] and the reference note kind in angle brackets < >.  I think it should be entirely the latter.  What say all of you?  Incidentally, what on earth happened to the "Islamic aniconistic tradition" of the Muhammad Cartoons article?  It wasn't bad the last time I looked at it, and now it's practically all opinion and no citation (and poorly written besides) - it needs work. Esquizombi 18:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no preference for citiation styles except that they be the same thoroughout the article -- I already noted this problem above re: the Judaism section.  The inconsistencies happened because different people were working on/watching different sections of this page, but now that edits have died down somewhat, somebody should go through and make citations consistent.  (Schizombie, are you volunteering?) However, I think that Bible, Talmud, Qu'ran, etc. verses should just be in parentheses in the main body of the article -- it gets very tiresome to keep clicking on links for these, and using in-line parentheses is pretty standard in theological discussions.  Scholarly works, on the other hand, should be ref notes. Rooster613 18:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's agreed upon to go with the refs, then I'll try and get to that, though there's 40+ of them so anyone else should feel free to jump in too.  Will take a while since it entails visiting each page and copying title, author, etc. info.  Any opinion on big quotes as here Illuminatus#Publishing history?  I'd never seen those until someone added them to that page. Esquizombi 19:12, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK by me -- go ahead.  I assume you are using the < > brackets? Rooster613 19:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes that style.  Slightly improved now, though there are still some [ ] in the notes themselves and the references section which need to be taken care of, and then the actual text in the notes needs to be in more of a standard citation style.  Esquizombi 02:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation style 

message: I expanded the scope of this article to encompass more than more popularized examples of aniconism (in religion). These were moved in pages of their own, deserving the importnace they have. Expansion and splitting were suggested at various moments in the discussions above. I hope the contributors and readers agree with the change and that improvements will follow. / Abjad 16:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding and splitting 

message: Seems highly subjective and is entirely un-referenced. Should it be removed or rewritten?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.171.170.5 (talk) 04:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed this seeming nonsense section:
--Filll 05:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media 

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BetacommandBot (talk) 08:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Romanian revolutionary flag 1998.jpg

message: The thesis of this section appears to fly in the face of contemporary scholarship.  Technology in particular has always been highly visual. Ancient architects used scale models and drawings to work out design and well as templates for construction and the practice continued through the medieval period finally evolving into modern engineering and architectural drawing.  However, there were few preserved.  Parchment was expensive and was almost invariably reused.  The drawings in the library at the Koln Cathedral are a important exception, see Wiki article Cologne Cathedral for some more details.  For a definitive work that refutes much of this section, see Eugene S. Ferguson, Engineering and the Mind's Eye, MIT Press, 1992.  
The smaller day-today objects of technology served as their own templates. Questions of Aniconism belong a different domain.  See George Basalla, The Evolution of Technology, Cambridge University Press, 1988 for an overview of current thinking in this area.
I leave it to others to establish the significance of Aniconism in science and mathematics.
I am inclined to simply delete references to Aniconism and technology from the article
Jwalthouse (talk) 20:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Johnbod (talk) 21:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Science and Technology

message: Aniconism is a particular case of representation (the absence of images) and taboo (the prohibition of images). The difference is that one expresses only the absence of images, while the other contains also an injunction conceived to regulate their absence. An avoidance and repugnance of representations is called iconophobia, its antonymic reaction being that of an iconodule. When unformalized predispositions or clearly stated legislations are put in practice and enforced, leading to the removal and destruction of representations, the aniconism becomes iconoclasm. Aniconism relates also to censorship, which takes place after a representation was already produced, but before, or shortly after, it is made public, and also involves less violence than iconoclasm. In common usage, "aniconism" is used to designate the absence of paintings and statues, "taboo" characterizes behaviours, "censorship" is applied to written materials and "iconoclasm" to the destruction of paintings and statues.
This reads like one of those chatty dictionary entries that compares closely-related words.
(1) The difference is that one expresses only the absence of images, while the other contains also an injunction conceived to regulate their absence. This would make more sense if the distinction were not between "representation" and "taboo", which aren't related in a way that allows a meaningful contrast.
 
(2) Aniconism "relates" to censorship -- weasel words. 
(3) This is followed by a pedantic definition of censorship, that looks like it's enforcing a private choice of distinctions.
Overall it reads in an amateurish. 
178.38.61.219 (talk) 22:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, all this came in after a VERY drastic change 10 years ago -  i'm not at all sure the older version wasn't better, and I'm sure so much should not have been removed. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jawboning 

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