Talk:Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic/Archive 1

message: I hope I won't hurt any national sensibilities by asking this, but I feel it may be warranted. Would any one object to the addition of the category :Category:Regions of old Armenia to this article? This is based on the Vaspurakan article that lists it as one of its former constituent districts. 
I wish to remain neutral on whatever argument you're having already, and it really isn't any of my business. I'm just an outsider who happens to be mildly interested in Medieval Armenian history (and not at all in modern nationalistic conflicts). A simple "yes" or "no" consensus will do. Many thanks. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 03:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t think it would be appropriate. It’s a disputable question. Thanks for your interest, but it’s better not to start another controversy on this subject. Thank you. Grandmaster 09:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: I'm adding the tag. The article currently has a huge gap in the history section when it comes to Classical and Mediveal eras. Virtually no mention of Armenian rule of the territory.--Eupator 00:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual accuracy tag 

message: I got annoyed by both sides claiming the other is vandalizing, when, ya know, y'all aren't. so, I've protected the page on the current version I got to it at - this is not an endorsement of any particular side, this is the most neutral way of doing it. I emplore you to discuss differences here and, if no conclusion can be made, go to WP:RFC. But do not continue simply going back and forth with "rv vandalism". We admins hate that. Good luck on coming to a compromise. --Golbez 15:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Golbez - as you can see I have initiated discussion again and again, but Grandmaster is just reverting anything and everything I do without discrimination and without discussion usually, and even if he agrees I am right.  He reverted a bunch of my changes, and only addressed one of them here, and in that one he admitted I was right.  He even changes small wording corrections when he does not know the definition of the word changed! (eg. majority, exclave) The problem is nobody else seems to care at all about the article, so he gets away with it.  I wish you'd change it back to my version since I have been trying the whole time to add to the article, not take away from it. Anyway, I will outline below the 4 main changes so that they can be addressed one by one.  I hope somebody else will oversee the discussion, because "he started it". --RaffiKojian 21:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Raffi is correct concerning the fact that NOBODY is allowed to visit and check the khachkars and azeri allegations of innocence. On the other hand ANYONE can go to Shushi and anywhere else in Karabakh or Armenia. 
Report on Cultural Cleansing in Nakhichevan by Steven Sim,Full text--Eupator 21:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

text: "Hi Golbez - as you can see I have initiated discussion again and again" I can see that. It has not succeeded. Reverting mindlessly is not the solution; take this to the next level of Dispute resolution please. --Golbez 21:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --RaffiKojian 00:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: This was compromise para the first. There may still be one or two issues remaining with word choice, but people are in general agreement about it and I personally think it is good-to-go.
:Nakhichevan's border with Armenia has been closed since 1989; the border was closed by Armenia in retaliation to Azerbaijan's closure of the rest of its borders as part of a larger conflict the two countries were involved in (see Nagorno-Karabakh.) 
Sdedeo (tips) 19:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: compromise first paragraph

message: Several times in the history of this article grandmaster reverted the article without discussing any of the changes made. Not once did he bother using the talk page nor did he try modifying the text or anything, he just reverts.
One good example is here, a user though an anon tried to bridge the historical gap of several centuries in this article and grandmaster reverted as usual without any discourse: Revision as of 10:05, 12 January 2006--Eupator 15:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eupator, thanks. If you know of any other major deletions recently, please paste there here so that we can possibly reintegrate some of that information. Wholescale removal of content is an indication of a major problem. Sdedeo (tips) 16:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: In addition to the above here's another one: Revision as of 06:38, 25 December 2005 Additions(with decent sources) were poorly worded and formatted but deserved to be rewritten and not deleted.--Eupator 18:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: First of all you cannot just delete it. Wikirules state that much. You can request a citation via  or on the talk page. Change the wroding etc. Second of all you removed a ton of other information with references as well as names of prominent historical persons born in Nakhijevan, not to mention the Armenian etymology of the name but as Sdedeo said we will get back to this once everything above is settled. --Eupator 21:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This edit completely removed the existing text, which I restored. Grandmaster 21:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No large chunks of texts were removed, only new facts were added.--Eupator 21:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It was a copy-paste of an article from one of Armenian sites. That’s why there were rhetoric questions in it. Wikipedia does not allow unauthorized copying from other resources. Grandmaster 22:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Provide the source of your claims please.--Eupator 23:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You know that I always do. The text was copied from this Armenian propaganda site: Grandmaster 06:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Grandmaster also deleted the photo of the Armenian khachkars I had added right away without discussion, and quickly put up a picture of an Azeri mausoleum. When I called him on it his defense was, You have that picture in the article about Julfa, and that is enough. No need to include it in every single article about Nakhichevan. There are better things in Nakhichevan than the tombstones, and this mausoleum is one of the better known landmarks of Nakhichevan. btw, "every single article" at that time meant two, including this one, not that it's important. This has been resolved, but I just want to illustrate that this remove without discussion approach is not constructive, and his explanation shows that the removals themselves can be POV.  --RaffiKojian 21:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not only me, but also other users, who were not from Azerbaijan removed this photo, thinking that it is not appropriate here. Indeed, there are better known landmarks of the area, one of which I included into this article. And there’s no real proof of Armenian allegations, so why that picture should be here, considering that you included it into another article about Nakhichevan as well? There are only three full text articles on Nakhichevan, and two of them have this picture now. Grandmaster 06:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Under Wikipedia guidelines on Abundance and Redundancy, inclusion of the same information in more than one article is perfectly permissable and even encouraged. "In many cases, edit wars are based on a premise, that: "such material doesn't belong here, because it belongs in another article." Instead of removing content, it is preferred to have abundance and redundancy of content."--TigranTheGreat 13:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This dispute is actually resolved. We were arguing about which picture to include and ended up keeping both. But still I’m sure there are people who may consider that picture inappropriate on this page. Raffi inserted it in two out of three pages with text about Nakhichevan. Whatever. I comment on this because Raffi touched upon this issue. Grandmaster 13:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of large blocks of text without discussion by grandmaster 

message: Hi GM, welcome back. As far as I can tell from the source, the Az.s make two claims: 1. that Armenian has done its own destruction of monuments and 2. that this is part of the larger NK conflict. So I am going to propose a compromise paragraph (actually now split into two paragraphs):
:Several times since its independence, Armenia has accused the Azerbaijani government of systematic destruction of 6th - 9th cc. khachkars (Armenian carved stone crosses) at a medieval cemetery in the town of Julfa in Nakhichevan, and has appealed to international organizations to intervene. In support of these accusations, Armenia has presented photos and video which, according to Armenian authorities, show Azeri soldiers carrying out the destruction  . The European Parliament has formally called on Azerbaijan to stop the demolition of these cemeteries and khachkars as a breach of the UNESCO World Heritage Convention . 
:Azerbaijani authorities have denied the charges, describing them as an attempt to draw attention from Armenian destruction of Azeri mosques, madrassas and museums elsewhere in the region. They have stated that Azerbaijan gives high importance to the protection of historical monuments on its territory and further that the video presented by the Armenian side does not clearly show the nature of the destroyed objects or the nationality of the persons involved in the destruction. 
Both Tigran and GM please weigh in. Sdedeo (tips) 19:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tigran, you proposed a version. GM complained that the Az. response was not properly presented. I went into the article, and provided the exact response that Az. made. You may dispute the Az. response, but you now need to provide sources if you want this section to extend into a third paragraph disputing the disputation. Sdedeo (tips) 19:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we should make it clear, where according to Azerbaijani authorities the destruction takes place. According to the ambassador, Armenians destroy Azeri cultural heritage in the territory of Armenia and the part of Azerbaijani territory, which is under Armenian military control. Grandmaster 19:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "NK conflict zone," to which you agreed before, makes it clear that there is a conflict, and Azeri monuments are being destroyed in that conflict zone. By the way, the PACE response to Azeri complaint on the Azeri monuments uses that exact term--NK conflict Zone. I still think we should leave out the issue of Azeri monuments for the reasons I stated earlier and below.--TigranTheGreat 20:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The disputation of disputation is here: http://felist.com/archive/media.arminfo/200309/10233601.html. It has two parts--Armenia's church leader denies, and Karabakh's church leader denies. But I dont' want to include this, and I don't want to include the Azeri monuments issue either--it lengthens the issue and introduces an entirely knew issue which shifts the focus of the segment from its intended (Nakhichevan) to unintended (Karabakh) topic. To propertly represent the Azeri view, we don't need to copy the entire respose of the Azeri side. We are not including, from the Armenian side, the terms "cultural genocide," or the accusation "Azerbaijan tries to erase the history of Armenia on its territory," details about soldiers, etc. So, choosing one part of the response and leaving another out does not violate the NPOV policies. Saying "an attempt to distract from NK conflict" isntead of "attempt to distract from destruction of Azeri monuments" takes one part of the response, a more neutral formulation, and leaves out another part of the Response--a disputed and and entirely different issue. Since we are picking one and leaving another anyway, I say we include the one that's worded more neutrally, and doesn't invite the Armenian disputation of dispute (or however you phrased it).--TigranTheGreat 20:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: But what was wrong with the previously agreed brief version? Why do we need all those details, if we provide references to the original documents anyway? I think Tigran tries to gain maximum propagandistic advantage from this, but it’s not the purpose of this resource. Grandmaster 20:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First, we need to assume good faith, instead of assuming "maximum propagandistic advantage." Second, we never agreed to the brief versoin, in fact before the mediation started, we agreed to the longer version, which you then replaced unilaterally with a sentence from the Regnum article. My goal is to present the basic facts. If I was tryign to gain propagandistic advantage, I would include "cultural genocide," and "Azeris try to erase traces of Armenian culture," and the number of soldiers, how they pulverize the stones with heavy machineries etc. No, I exclude them. But, there are certain important basic facts, and since SD originally said that on Wiki, we don't exclude important information, let's stick to that principle. --TigranTheGreat 20:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: That's precisely my point. Including the issue of Azeri monuments will make the discussion explode. It belongs to another article, perhaps AZ, not N. Choosing "distract from NK conflict" is much simpler, shorter, and NPOV. --TigranTheGreat 20:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  But that was not the point of ambassador’s response. He provides very detailed list of destroyed cultural heritage, we can’t just leave it out. Grandmaster 20:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I meant the version, which Eupator previously agreed with. I don’t understand what was wrong with it, we left most of details out to let the readers judge themselves by reading the references. It could save us from all this lengthy dispute and the current stalemate situation. Grandmaster 20:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The previously agreed version was the version that I am proposing, which is now on the protected article, and was agreed upon, as clear from the editting history.--TigranTheGreat 20:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Eupator agreed, but I didn't, and given that Eupator is quite busy (as he told me) and apparently overlooked the fact that you replaced the Armenian view with a sentence from an Azeri source, I think we need to weigh in my opinion as well to achieve maximum finality. As SD stated earlier, we should keep important info on WIKI. The details, which you removed and I replaced, are essential to the Armenian claims, as I explained in the bulletted list earlier. And as I said, I am exluding other, less important material.--TigranTheGreat 20:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What’s wrong with the version that was agreed? It says that Armenia has accused the Azerbaijani government in destruction of Armenian grave-stones (khachkars) at a medieval cemetery in the town of Julfa in Nakhichevan, presenting photos and video in support of these accusations. Is it not the essence of Armenian point of view? Didn’t they accuse, presenting photo and video of the alleged event? It’s all there. If you gonna go further into details, it will grow endlessly. Grandmaster 20:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Armenia has accused the Azerbaijani government in destruction of Armenian grave-stones (khachkars) at a medieval cemetery in the town of Julfa in Nakhichevan, presenting photos and video in support of these accusations  ; the European Parliament has formally called for the Azerbaijanis to stop any such destruction . Azerbaijani authorities have denied the charges, stating that the video presented by the Armenian side does not clearly show the nature of the destroyed objects or the nationality of the persons involved in the destruction .
(prior comments: Fine with me. If grandmaster is ok with it.--Eupator 20:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: This is the version I like. Lets see what Tigran thinks.--Eupator 20:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: My problem with the Azeri response is simple, it's draws attention from Nakhijevan and goes on to the alleged destruction of Tatar (there was no such thing as Azeri prior to the 1920's) in places far from Nakhijevan. That in essense calls for a response to the response and that goes far ebyond the sphere this article should cover. --Eupator 20:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: It’s not about quick resolution, it’s just about resolution. You want to go into details about Armenian position, but don’t agree to provide details of Azerbaijani position under baseless excuses. We either provide detailed position of both sides or give a short version of them and refer the readers to references. Grandmaster 20:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  When you sneak in a watered-down Azeri perspective on the Armenian view and present it as if it's taken from the Armenian sources, it doesn't help with the resolution, it backfires. While you have deleted important details from Armenian view, I have so far only added details to the Azeri view (contents of the video, the Azeri policy on its monuments, the propaganda campaign bit, etc.). --TigranTheGreat 12:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait, do you like this last version that I agreed to as well as Gm? Edit: Nevermind, I guess you did.--Eupator 20:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No, "precisely" refers to Eupators objection to including details on Azeri monuments.--TigranTheGreat 12:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have skimmed the vast amount of discussion that took place (phew!) and will defer to Tigrans judgement since I agree that there is a problem simply presenting the Armenian and Azeri views on *this* issue, when the Azeri view/response on this issue is in fact introducing a wholly new issue to the matter.  So if the summary of the Azeri response mentions places outside of Nakhichevan, I think an Armenian counter-response is valid, if the summary of the Azeri response does not mention places outside of Nakhichevan, then an Armenian counter-response is not needed in my opinion.  So I will leave it up to Grandmaster and TigranTheGreat to decide which way is best.  It would probably be good to develop a new article on the subject however at some point.  I'm sorry I can't contribute more now, but I am on the road and again it seems I won't be able to log in for a couple of days minimum...  maybe a week.   --RaffiKojian 20:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: resolution of dispute #2

message: The following paragraph is agreed to by Tigran, Eupator and GM. Tigran has suggested we wait for Raffi to return, so let's do that. Raffi, when we hear from you, we are good to go.
:Armenia has accused the Azerbaijani government in destruction of Armenian grave-stones (khachkars) at a medieval cemetery in the town of Julfa in Nakhichevan, presenting photos and video in support of these accusations  ; the European Parliament has formally called for the Azerbaijanis to stop any such destruction . Azerbaijani authorities have denied the charges, stating that the video presented by the Armenian side does not clearly show the nature of the destroyed objects or the nationality of the persons involved in the destruction .
Sdedeo (tips) 20:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, sorry for misinterpreting. Discussion continues below! Sdedeo (tips) 15:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: final para

message: Hello all --
OK, it seems that I haven't succeeded in mediating a compromise even though we've been at this for seven days.
The principle problem, from my point of view, is that people have not been amenable to compromise, and instead of presenting alternative solutions, have generally "stuck to their guns." There are a number of good solutions here, but none of them have been OK'd by all of the people involved. WP:NPOV doesn't really give precise guidance here at this low level; in general, the dispute is because people think one side is being made to look bad. I promise that this is illusory, but I don't think I'd be believed.
It is also a problem that many people have clearly identified, here and on their user pages, that they have a particular POV that they wish to promote. This is a very bad thing, IMO. I would suggest that people remove this material from their user pages; it is inappropriate (although now common) to describe one's political views on wikipedia, and it leads to problems.
On the other hand, good faith efforts have been made by everyone involved here. People have been civil, which is great, and people have gotten much better at providing sources when they make points.
What I am going to do at this point, because I don't believe I am helping, is halt the mediation. I will then request page unprotection. I suggest people begin editing the page again. I expect people to be controversial, but I should say that you should not get into edit wars. Do not revert each other; allow the article to evolve. I can promise, promise, promise you that going to formal arbitration is not going to help very much, and is going to waste everyone's time.
We do have a minor solution to the borders sentence; please put that in (the text is above) once the admins get around to unprotecting the page.
Good luck reaching a solution, and thank you all for giving it a shot with me. If you haven't already, I suggest reading the "tips" page appended to my signature.
Sdedeo (tips) 00:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Sdedeo. I would like to thank you for what you’ve done, you did really a good job and helped find a solution for the most of the disputed issues. Unfortunately, some people see this resource as a haven for propaganda, and managed to disrupt the efforts to achieve the compromise, which was almost agreed. But I can reiterate that I cannot agree to Azerbaijani position to be reduced to minimum and Armenian propaganda take most of the space. This was a real good chance to find a solution for the dispute and stop endless revert wars, but the chance was lost. Anyway, thanks again and I hope you will be checking this page from time to time to offer your advise on disputed issues. Regards, Grandmaster 05:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Grandmaster, throughout this discussion, you kept removing segments from the Armenian portion of paragraphs, while I kept offering addition of points to the Azeri portion, my goal being to make sides balanced, to which you resisted rigidly. I say that shows your intention to minimize the Armenian view and push the Azeri one. I do not blame you, however, as it's largely Sdedeo's fault. Your position became uncompromising due to his blatant partiality and overall incompetence. I understand you want to praise him, but the fact is his mediation did damage to both parties and their relationships (gee, I wonder when we have seen that happen, say, for the past 100 years at least). I know you will keep defending him and yourself, but my goal is not to lay blames. I believe we can still recover the damage done by Sdedeo and work together. I believe we all should take a couple of days off, it will help us regain some perspective. I also think that if we ever try to resort to dispute resolution on this issue, we need to start over--please read WP:DR--there is a host of steps (RFC, voting, informal mediation) before even trying something like this. To achieve maximum consensus, we need to try the available initial steps first. Before that, we should try to work with each other, and before that, we need to take break. --TigranTheGreat 12:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Tigran, but in my opinion the only reason the meditaion fails is your unconstructive maximalist position and unwillingness to let the other (Azeri) side of the conflict to fairly state it’s case, which is the requirement of NPOV policy. Several times you disrupted the compromise between me and other Armenian editors, and keeping on doing it right now. So instead of blaiming the mediator check the history of the discussion and see how many times your position prevented achievment of a compromise. Regards, Grandmaster 13:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As an editor on this article and a party of mediation, I have the right to voice my concerns on propositions that I see problematic, even if other parties agree on it. Noone has to just accept something for granted if he sees serious issues with it. As the discussion above shows, the version that you and Eupator initially agreed upon actually did have problems. I could just as well blame you for the disruption, since you did not agree to my version, to which Eupator would have agreed as well. In fact my versions are quite balanced, and you have persistently rejected them, instead trying to take away as much as possible from the Armenian view. However, whatever position each party holds, it is the obligation of a mediator not to take sides, to listen to different sides, to guide parties through the applicable rules, and to resolve obvious misunderstandings. This mediator has failed on all counts. --TigranTheGreat 13:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  “My version is balanced” etc is just your point of view. I don’t find your versions balanced and think that they have heavy bias. You can blame me, you can blame the mediator, you can blame everybody else and find no faults with yourself, but if you really want to move forward and not to return to the stage of revert wars, which is why this article was protected, you should make a step towards compromise and stop pushing your POV at any cost. Sorry, but I still think that it is you to blame that we have a stalemate situation here. Grandmaster 13:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The revert war actually wasn't between you and me, you got yourself into it before I even intervened. In fact my earlier intervention helped resolve some of the issues that you were unnecesarily fighting over. Your constant attempts to take away information on Armenians is the best manifestation of you trying to push your POV. Your constant referral to the Armenian-related info as "propaganda" is another. Compromise doesn't mean accepting your POV, it means balancing views, which I have proposed, and you have rejected. Until you learn this, you will always get into revert wars.--TigranTheGreat 14:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So you think it’s because of me all the revert wars started. Fine. Just note that the only edit wars I got into are this article and the one for Karabakh, with the same editors as here, and mind you, those are not the only ones I edit. And you proposals were so out of touch with reality that there was not a slight chance that I could take them seriously. If you make proposals knowing that they won’t be acceptable for the other party, it’s nothing but a sabotage of the mediation process. I’ve been accused of many things, but you failed to prove my guilt in anything so far. And it was Raffi who applied for mediation, I never knew Sdedeo  before, you guys brought him here, and now you started attacking him for not supporting your position and blaming your failure to substantiate your claims on him. It’s simply not a nice behavior. I’m not going to defend Sdedeo, he can do that himself if he wishes so, though obviously he sees no point in engaging in such useless discussions. I just think that you should have some courage to accept the outcome of the process which was started by your fellow Armenian editors, or else move to the next step of dispute resolution without personal attacks on the mediator. Take care. Grandmaster 06:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: stopping mediation