Talk:ZSU-57-2

message: This article seems to contain a history of many SPAAGs, not just the subject one. The article should either be renamed or a lot of the content moved. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be moved at a later date. Regards. - SuperTank17 (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with DJ C and Vladimir here; if an article is needed on Red Army SPGs or on AAA vehicles, let's create it. Putting that general content in this article is a mistake. The same error is being committed on the SU-122 page. The content is valuable but not in the individual vehicle articles. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: How many lousy photos do we need in this article? The lead photo, which is excellent by the way, is of a Polish vehicle. Therefore it is difficult to see what two other, much poorer photos of Polish vehicles adds to this article, which, after all, is about a Soviet-designed piece of equipment. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 20:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: From the article: "The driver is seated on the left hand side of the front of the hull and has a single-piece hatch cover that opens to the left. In front of it there are two periscopes, one which can be replaced by the TVN-1 infrared periscope which is used in conjunction with the infrared headlamp mounted on the right side of the glacis plate.[8][7]"
From the source (http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/armored_vehicles/zsu-57-2
): "The driver is seated at the front of the hull on the left and has a single-piece hatch cover that opens to the left, in front of which are two periscopes, one replaceable by an infrared periscope which is used in conjunction with the infrared headlamp mounted on the right side of the glacis plate. "
DMorpheus (talk) 16:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There we go, rewritten. Phew. Regards. - SuperTank17 (talk) 17:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright? 

message: What do the sources say was the most serious flaw of this vehicle - lack of fire control radar, lack of overhead cover, poor firepower, or something else entirely? Whatever it is should be sourced and should be written in such a way as to reflect the meaning. Right now we have an edit comment saying it was the lack o radar but nothing in the article to support that. I would think we'd list the radar issue first in the flaws section if that is indeed considered the worst aspect of the system. Thanks, DMorpheus (talk) 19:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  My thinking is that in the interest of clear writing, we should list the most serious flaw first, then the next most serious, and so forth. So if the lack of radar is the #1 flaw, I would guess ther open-topped turret is #2, because most Soviet AFVs of the 1960s were replacing open tops with fully-enclosed layouts (e.g., BTR-60, BTR-50, BRDM series.....) . Agreed? DMorpheus (talk) 20:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Most serious" flaws? 

message: I suggest the following paragraph needs a re-write. I attempted one yesterday but it has been reverted. Frankly I don't think it makes a lot of sense as written but maybe someone else can improve it. 
"The final design of the ZSU-57-2 (Ob'yekt 500), based on a modified T-54 medium tank chassis, was finished in autumn 1948. Prototypes of the ZSU-57-2 were tested and improved between 1950 and 1953. The first two prototypes were built in 1950. After trials which took place between 27 January and 15 March 1951, six more prototypes of the ZSU-57-2 were built after some improvements were made. The state tests, in which two vehicles participated, were finished in December 1954 due to delays in the development of drives for the S-68 twin AA autocannons.  The ZSU-57-2 officially entered service in the Soviet Army on 14 February, 1955."
* Trials/testing two different things? How can we simultaneously write that testing took place between 1950 and 1953, and then only from Jan-Mar 1951? Which is it? 
* Then we say "state tests" took till Dec 54? 
* Wouldn't it make more sense to write that the prototypes were built before we say they were tested? it doesn't make a lot of sense to include this afterwards. 
* overall I think this is an unnecessary level of detail anyway. 
DMorpheus (talk) 15:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, that's much better. Still a little oddly worded but better than it was, for sure. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 18:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph needs re-write 

message: I removed the short section on the driver's station for two reasons. The most important is: it was a very close copyright violation/plagiarism from the 1993-94 edition of "Jane's Armour and Artillery", p. 24. Second, it seems unnecessary. We don't describe other crew positions in detail. If someone wants to rewrite descriptions of all the crew positions with non-copyvio content that is totally OK with me, I just felt that, given the recent copyvios on some of these soviet AFV articles, it had to go immediately. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 23:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Relocating" is fine. Copyright violation is quite another matter. If we have a section with crew positions (which is completely unnecessary in my opinion, but I do not strongly object) it must be written from scratch. There is an entire set of Soviet AFV articles (T-80, T-55, BMP, etc) at risk of copyright violation in my opinion. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 00:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I apologize for reverting a good-faith edit just now, but the text is still so close to jane' (1993-94, p. 24) that I had to revert it. Regardless of what else is cited here I fear a copyright violation. DMorpheus (talk) 01:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The paragraph is still a copyright vio. Can you think of some reaosn why the page or section should not be so flagged? I can't. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 14:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

text:  As I stated above, the reason I consider this a copyright violation is that the wording is very close to what appears in Jane's. I don't consider that funny, I consider it a real problem that we should solve. DMorpheus (talk) 17:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed copyright vio 

message: I suggest a new article be created devoted to the 57 mm guns mounted on this vehicle. That way this article could be shortened and simplified considerably. DMorpheus (talk) 16:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I notice the S-60 article and I think it would make a lot of sense to move some of the technical info about the S-68 mounting there. There's no point in describing ammunition, range etc in great detail in this article if it can be done more simply in the S-60 article. This article should give a brief overview (caliber, range, general performance) and then refer the reader to the S-60 article. regards, DMorpheus (talk) 17:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  57 mm cannons 

message: "Do you advise to remove the whole Wikiarticle and leave only links after the title? Sure, the reader will read, translate them, and finally found the info"
I propose two things: 
a) keep this article focused on the weapons system. Unless there is something extraordinary about what the system accomplished, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to describe a particular action. 
b) keep the content clear and well-written. Adding a lot of extra, poorly-structured content doesn't help - it simply makes the article very difficult to read.  
This is a relatively long and poorly-written article already. In improving the writng I am also attempting to shorten it where appropriate. I admit I am very close to giving up, because I feel like I am shoveling smoke. If this continues I will simply tag it for copyedit and copyvio and walk away. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 17:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article length and focus 

message: "Israel - Captured a number of ZSU-57-2 SPAAGs from the Egyptians or the Syrians. One was given to the Yad la-Shiryon Museum, another was given to the Batey ha-Osef museum in Tel Aviv, Israel."
Did Israel actually USE the ZSU's or just capture them? I cant find a source for any Israeli usage. 83.253.32.171 (talk) 22:40, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel, operator? 

message: I found a great video and quite frankly, probably the only respectable video of the ZSU-57-2 firing but I have no way of knowing as to whether or not this video is/was in violation of copyright policies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RURZrtES9jU is the url. Anyone who can help with this? Thank you so much.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvercetti (talk • contribs) 07:44, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Youtube video 

message: As usual, the user Irondome is opposed to writing that Latrun is part of the West Bank, which is a fact. So it was not a chock for me that he reverted my edit here and think I should await consensus when there already is one about West Bank's status.
I am looking forward to a discussion about this with him and others. --IRISZOOM (talk) 18:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the location 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified