Portal talk:Puerto Rico/Did you know-Puerto Rico?

message: This article was nominated for deletion and the final results are here: Articles for deletion/Did You Know - Puerto Rico Tony the Marine 04:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

message: As it stands the article looks like a collection of text snippets.  It is too cluttered. The facts should be organized by topic and separated using headlines. --Stux 05:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Prettier?

message: Construction of the San Juan Cathedral did not begin until 1521 when Monsignor Alonso Manso picked the plot of land and began work. Work on the Santo Domingo Cathedral began in 1516. The Santo Domingo Cathedral was consecrated in 1541. The San Juan Cathedral was not consecrated until 1865. Not even the San Juan Cathedral makes the claim that it is the oldest in the Western Hemisphere, it only claims it is the first church of Puerto Rico. Flybd5 17:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Re "one of the oldest", nicely done, Tony. I like that better than my idea. :) Flybd5 18:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldest Cathedral in the Western Hemisphere? 

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replies: text: That site does get used for spam, but seems used acceptably here.  – SJ + 00:16, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: The DYK statement is not true; Puerto Ricans do pay federal income taxes. (By "Puerto Ricans", I mean American citizens residents of Puerto Rico)
To make the DYK correct, it should say "by mutual agreement with the United States Congress, Puerto Rico is an independent taxation authority, and therefore many Puerto Rico residents do not pay federal income taxes". However, I am proposing the entire item #11 be eliminated because, even that statement then begs the question, "Well, but many residents in any state don't pay federal income taxes either, so what's the difference?" (Incidentally, the second statement that Puerto Ricans living on the island instead pay income taxes to the local taxation authority is irrelevant and distracting and should be removed from there altogether because that statement is like saying, New Yorkers living in New York pay income taxes to the State of New York. That is, the statement is like stating that the sky is blue: an exercise in triviality and a waste of bytes.)
The fact is that, contrary to common misconception, residents of Puerto Rico do pay federal income taxes, and the following cites will prove it.
Cites that prove Puerto Ricans do pay federal income taxes:
The following Puerto Ricans pay the US federal income tax:
# Puerto Rico residents who work for the federal government (e.g., postal employees, federal agents of any of the federal executive and judicial branches, etc.)Heritage.org Archived 2010-02-10.D.C. Voting Rights: No Representation? No Taxation! Robert A. Book. Heritage.com 11 March 2009. Accessed 28 October 2020.
# Puerto Ricans who do business with the federal governmentMCVPR.com 
Archived 2010-01-16.
# Puerto Rico-based corporations that intend to send funds to the U.S.An Overview of the Special Tax Rules Related to Puerto Rico and an Analysis of the Tax and Economic Policy Implications of Recent Legislative Options. Joint Committee on Taxation. US Congress. 23 June 2006. Accessed 14 August 2010. p. 9, line 1. Archived on 3 December 2010.
# Puerto Rico residents who are members of the U.S. militaryHeritage.org Archived 2010-02-10.D.C. Voting Rights: No Representation? No Taxation! Robert A. Book. Heritage.com 11 March 2009. Accessed 28 October 2020.
# Puerto Rico residents who earned income from sources outside Puerto RicoAn Overview of the Special Tax Rules Related to Puerto Rico and an Analysis of the Tax and Economic Policy Implications of Recent Legislative Options. Joint Committee on Taxation. US Congress. 23 June 2006. Accessed 14 August 2010. pp. 14-15. Archived on 3 December 2010.
It has been estimated that close to 50% of PR residents live below the poverty line.A Third of Movers From Puerto Rico to the Mainland United States Relocated to Florida in 2018. Brian Glassman. U.S. Census. 26 September 2019. Accessed 28 October 2020. If you consider that even being above the poverty line does not automatically equate with you having to file the federal tax return, it would be fair to estimate that about 65% of the population wouldn't be required to file federal taxes even if PR was a state. This means about 2/3 (about 67%) of PR families don't need to file federal taxes even if PR was a state, or that only about 1/3 of families would have to file (about 1 million people) as a state. Considering an average 4 members to a family, this is approximately 250,000 people would have to file federal taxes if PR were a state. It has been estimated there are currently some 25,000 federal employees in PR.U.S. Employees in Puerto Rico and Territories Face Huge Pay Gap: Just because they live in a 'non foreign area'. Adriana De Jesús Salamán. Noticel. 17 May 2019. This means that currently, under the commonwealth, about 10% of the population has to file federal taxes, as opposed to the 250,000 that would have to file if PR was a state. However, even 10% is a sizeable chunk of the federal tax-paying population in PR currently paying federal income taxes to claim, as  DYK item 11 does, that Puerto Ricans do not pay federal income taxes. And, this 10% reflects federal income taxes paid only by Group #1 (of the 5 Groups above); add those Puerto Ricans paying federal income taxes because they fall into groups #2 thru #5, and the percentage of Puerto Ricans paying federal income taxes will be even higher. Mercy11 (talk) 22:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's very important to get the facts straight on this because it is often repeated that Puerto Ricans do not pay federal taxes. It seems incorrect to make a blanket statement that Puerto Ricans in PR do not pay federal taxes when all of these instances, of them paying federal taxes, are taken into consideration. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 00:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you mentioned that ("Puerto Ricans in PR do not pay federal taxes") because, since you just said "federal taxes" as opposed to what the DYK has ("federal income taxes"), it brings up another point which I will detail below... Mercy11 (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Just wanted to mention that your explanation seems sound. What I understand is that there are some commonwealth residents who do pay federal income taxes. That means we can't say "they don't", unless the DYI statement were reworded to say "blah, blah, blah, blah with some exceptions."... It'd be weird to have to add that caveat. Perhaps the # 11 statement should be eliminated.The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 20:13, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it would read weird, so that wouldn't be an elegant solution either. I propose we just spell as it is, namely, "That... Puerto Rico residents do pay federal taxes, including federal income taxes? We can then wikilink it to Taxation in Puerto Rico article. It may sound bold, but that's the reality: Puerto Ricans do pay federal taxes including federal income taxes. With the wikilink, the reader can then go to the "Taxation in Puerto Rico" article to learn that federal taxes --income or otherwise-- are paid by Puerto Ricans and learn about that specific rules that guide those obligations. Because the, I believe, only other option would be to remove the item altogether. However, I wouldn't want to do that since the purpose of an encyclopedia is to disseminate information (actually, to educate), and this would be a great opportunity to disseminate the right information. Think about it: everyone out there is reading left and right the fake news that Puerto Ricans don't pay federal taxes...no wonder Congress is the first one to hold back its purse and not distribute the fair amount of funds that Puerto Ricans deserve! All of those Congresspeople are fed that fake news by their staffers who are themselves fed the news from the news media! If you go to the U.S. mainstream media there isn't a single outlet out there (of scores of them) who hasn't published at least one article in the last 12 months alone stating that Puerto Ricans do not pay federal taxes. It's utter misinformation! Mercy11 (talk) 04:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Puerto Ricans do pay federal ''income'' taxes

message: The DYK statement is misleading, albeit unintentionally. It can cause confusion as readers generally equate the payment of "federal taxes" with the payment of "federal income taxes" which are two different concepts. However, all Puerto Ricans pay all other federal taxes, just as mainland US Americans do.
Cites that prove Puerto Ricans do pay all other sorts of federal taxes:
Residents of Puerto Rico also pay the following U.S. federal taxes, which is just as it is in the 50 States and DC: 
# Customs taxes,Dept of the Interior, Office of Insular Affairs. DOI.gov Archived 2009-11-04. which are subsequently returned to the Puerto Rico Treasury (but see Customs Taxes Misconception Note below.)
# Import/export taxesPuerto Rico. Stanford.wellsphere.com 7 September 2008. Archived on 2010-04-01.
# Federal commodity taxesPuerto Rico. Stanford.wellsphere.com 7 September 2008. Archived on 2010-04-01.
# Payroll Taxes, including: 
## Social SecurityTopic No. 903 U.S. Employment Tax in Puerto Rico. IRS. Accessed 28 October 2020.
## MedicareReuters.com Puerto Rico hopes to gain from U.S. healthcare reform. Reuters. 24 September 2009. Accessed 28 October 2020.
The official cites above prove Puerto Ricans in the Island pay, not just federal income taxes, but also all other sorts of federal taxes. Mercy11 (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The IRS Topic No. 901 is here.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 02:39, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't that what I said? Where did I go wrong? Mercy11 (talk) 02:47, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm just including links to the places for details from "the horse's mouth". ...and Pub. 1321, so everything is in one place, for review. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. Mercy11 (talk) 02:58, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  These IRS publications discuss federal income taxes delineating who in Puerto Rico has to pay them.  Of course, the term federal taxes and federal income taxes can be confusing to readers. Some people, when they read # 11, could think that PR doesn't pay federal taxes, when in actuality they do. Sure some Puerto Ricans don't pay tax to the US federal government on their personal income earned in P.R., but some do as you showed with refs, in items 1-5 in the Puerto Ricans do pay federal income taxes subsection above. The item # 11 should be reworded or eliminated.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 20:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The terms "federal taxes" and "federal income taxes" can be (erroneously) used interchangeably creating confusion to readers and that's because most readers equate the two concepts. For example, who hasn't been asked around March or early April "Hey, did you file your taxes yet?" when what they actually mean is "Hey, did you file your INCOME taxes yet?" ? And yet, we don't think twice about it and just answer yes or no right away! And, because the two terms can be easily mixed up, that is also part of the problem with the DYK item#11 and, as such, is also something that needs fixing. To that effect, I am adding a new subsection further below, with cites, to discuss/clarify this "federal taxes mixed-up" problem. I am going to title it "People equate "paying federal taxes" with "paying federal income taxes."  You can take a look at it and tell me what you think. Mercy11 (talk) 04:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Puerto Ricans pay ''all'' other federal taxes, just as mainland Americans do

message: Item #11 is stating a (seemingly true) fact but out of context, because there are many "equalizing forces" that aren't mentioned there, making the statement "cherry-picking". For example: 
# As residents of Puerto Rico pay into Social Security, Puerto Ricans are eligible for Social Security benefits upon retirement, yet they are excluded from the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) 2114. What are other requirements for SSI eligibility? Social Security Handbook, Section 2114. Social Security Administration. Accessed 28 October 2020., which Stateside residents receive, turning Puerto Ricans into "SSI subsidizers" for the benefit of the Americans in the mainland. 
# The Island receives less than 15% of the Medicaid funding it would normally receive if it were a U.S. state.Puerto Rico's Looming 2019 Medicaid Fiscal Cliff. CNE. San Juan, Puerto Rico. 18 September 2019. Accessed 28 October 2020.  
# Medicare providers receive less-than-full state-like reimbursements for services rendered to beneficiaries in Puerto Rico even though the latter paid fully into the system,Puerto Rico Federal Affairs Administration. (p. 252.) Archived on 2011-05-11. again, turning Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico into "Medicare subsidizers" for the benefit of the mainland American elderly.   
# In general, "many federal social welfare programs have been extended to Puerto Rico residents, although usually with caps inferior to those allocated to the states." Sanford Levinson and Bartholomew H. Sparrow. The Louisiana Purchase and American Expansion: 1803–1898. New York: Rowman and Littlefield Publishers. 2005. p. 167. For a comprehensive coverage of federal programs made extensive to Puerto Rico see Richard B. Cappalli's Federal Aid to Puerto Rico. (1970)
These additional facts above make the DYK statement even more pathetic. Mercy11 (talk) 03:23, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't sure what you meant by "pathetic" but now in reading how Puerto Ricans pay into, yet are capped in what they receive, I can see how the statement might be  "pathetic" because a statement that can be so easily misconstrued is "sad" - which is a synonym for "pathetic".  This whole thing sucks. Re: #1 here, is currently in the court system- whether SSI should be extended to residents of Puerto Rico and whether denying them of SSI is / was unconstitutional.US court upholds SSI for Puerto Ricans in key ruling: The U.S. Court of Appeals has issued a key ruling that allows anyone from Puerto Rico to apply for Supplemental Security Income at a time when the U.S. territory is mired in a 13-year recession. Danica Coto. Associated Press. 10 April 2020. Accessed 1 November 2020. Archived.  The medicaid caps are very horrible for the island and the main reason why so many doctors are just leaving the commonwealth for the U.S. Thanks for looking into this and taking the time to explain this in your most eloquent way.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 20:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: As I was saying, I would call it an oversimplification of a complex topic.  I would call it a mistake.  People are pathetic. Actions are pathetic.  But I don't think we can characterize the DYI statement itself as "pathetic"... I would say it's mistaken or an oversimplification of a complex topic. I would call it a statement that needs caveats. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 20:23, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Puerto Ricans not only pay all types of federal taxes but, in fact, ''subsidize'' the Americans' own social programs

message: In addition to being false and being (unintentionally) misleading, the DYK statement also lends itself to confusion and, consequentially, to misinformation.
It is a reality that many people equate the "federal income taxes" of the DYK item with just "federal taxes".Puerto Rico Powerball Win Draws Offensive Tweets. Ricardo Arduengo. NBC News. 12 February 2015. Accessed 29 October 2020.A Winning Powerball Ticket Came From Puerto Rico: Let the Ignorance Begin. Latino Rebels. 12 February 2015. Accessed 29 October 2020. As such, the DYK item, unwillingly, lends itself to misinformation because, as the cites above have shown, Puerto Ricans actually pay both, federal income taxes --specifically-- as well as (all others) federal taxes in general. Therefore, it is best to just state the totally-correct "Puerto Rico residents do pay federal taxes, including federal income taxes". This would, in fact, educate the reader much better than the misconception perpetuated by the existing DYK item#11 that Puerto Ricans do not pay federal income taxes.
In fact, this misconception (that Puerto Ricans do not pay any federal taxes at all) is so widespread that in a recently-heard case at the US Federal Court of Appeals for the First Circuit, the Court itself called it out because even the well-educated, well-trained, appellant attorneys had themselves, on the record, made the mistake of confusing the two, and this came, as the Court pointed out, to the peril of their own clients (the attorneys' client was the US Social Security Administration).US v. Vaello-Madero, Docket No. 19-1390 (10 April 2020). U.S. Federal Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. Boston, Mass. pp.25-26. 10 April 2020. Accessed 29 October 2020. (Note: The case was appealed to the US Supreme Court by the Trump Administration (See, Fallece Juan R. Torruella, decano de los jueces federales puertorriqueños: El único boricua en servir en el Primer Circuito de Apelaciones tenía 87 años y fue un velerista olímpico. Oscar J. Serrano. Noticel. 26 October 2020. Accessed 4 November 2020. ))
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercy11 (talk • contribs) 04:34, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: "That in 2018 the IRS collected approximately $3,443,334,000 from Puerto Rico taxpayers clearly undermines the contention that Puerto Rico residents do not contribute to the federal treasury."  Well isn't that a nice even number? --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 06:09, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is such an important sub-topic that I am already drafting prose to support this. I don't think how much Puerto Ricans in the Island pay in federal taxes should be mingled with the subject of the confusion over "paying federal taxes" vs. "paying federal income taxes". Mercy11 (talk) 23:01, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusingly, people generally equate "paying federal taxes" with "paying federal ''income'' taxes"

message: "From 1998 up until 2006, when Puerto Rico was hit by its  present  economic  recession,  Puerto  Rico  consistently  contributed  more  than  $4  billion  annually  in  federal  taxes  and  impositions into the national fisc." This was more that the IRS collected from taxpayers in Vermont, Wyoming, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana, and Alaska, as well as  the  Northern  Mariana  Islands.US v. Vaello-Madero, Docket No. 19-1390 (10 April 2020). U.S Federal Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. Boston, Mass. pp. 26-27. 10 April 2020. Accessed 30 October 2020.See also Internal Revenue Service, SOI Tax Stats - Gross Collections, by Type of Tax and State - IRS Data  Book  Table  5, available at https://www.irs.gov/statistics/  soi-tax-stats-gross-collections-by-type-of-tax-and-state-irs-data-book-table-5 (last visited April 9, 2020) 
Data from the IRS shows that even while the Commonwealth was going thru its economic crisis, it still collected a sizable amount of taxes from Puerto Ricans. For example, from 2010 to 2015 the IRS collected about $3.5 billion every year from Puerto Rican taxpayers in the Island.Yes, Puerto Rico pays federal taxes. Here’s how much. Ana Campoy. Quartz.com (Referencing an Atlas chart using data from the IRS.) 21 October 2017. Accessed 30 October 2020.
Even despite being without electricity for nearly one year, as well as without running potable water during much of that time after the 2017 Hurricane Maria, as well as through the 2020 earthquake swarm, Puerto Rican continued to pay sizable amounts in federal taxes through  the  IRS: $3.4B in 2017 and $3.4B in 2018. "That  in  2018  the  IRS  collected  approximately  $3,443,334,000 from Puerto Rico taxpayers clearly undermines the contention  that  Puerto  Rico  residents  do  not  contribute  to  the  federal treasury."US v. Vaello-Madero, Docket No. 19-1390 (10 April 2020). U.S. Federal Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. Boston, Mass. p. 28. 10 April 2020. Accessed 30 October 2020.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercy11 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Puerto Ricans pay more in federal ''income'' taxes every year than residents of six other US states

message: # Although Puerto Ricans pay federal taxes, including federal income taxes, Puerto Ricans have no representation in the US Congress. They also cannot vote for the US president either.Taxation without representation. Julia Kagan. 25 July 2020. Accessed 30 October 2020.
# The US allows Puerto Rico to send one quasi-representative to the House of the US Congress. This Resident Commissioner has the voice power but not the vote power in the plenary of the US Congress.
# This arrangement has been criticized as taxation with representation. The Political Travesty of Puerto Rico: Like all U.S. territories, Puerto Rico has no real representation in its own national government. David S. Cohen. 26 September 2017. Accessed 30 October 2020.Taxation without representation. Julia Kagan. 25 July 2020. Accessed 30 October 2020.
# It has been estimatedDeceitful Tactics Used To Make Puerto Rico A State. Phyllis Schlafly. Eagleforum.org 28 March 2007. Accessed 30 October 2020. that, because the population of the Island is greater than that of 50% of the States, if it were a state, Puerto Rico would have six to eight seats in the House, in addition to the two seats in the Senate.Deceitful Tactics Used To Make Puerto Rico A State. Phyllis Schlafly. Eagleforum.org 28 March 2007. Accessed 30 October 2020. Puerto Rico: Commonwealth, Statehood, or Independence?: For more than 100 years, Puerto Rico has been a territorial possession of the United States. Both the Puerto Rican people and the U.S. Congress face a difficult choice about the future of this Caribbean island. Constitutional Rights Foundation. Bill of Right in Action. Fall 2001 (17:4). 2009.] Archived on 2009-06-10.House Report 110-597 - Puerto Rico Democracy Act of 2007. U.S Congress. House of Representatives. 110th Congress (2007-2008). Second Session. Note: For this report, it is necessary to submit a query from "https://www.congress.gov/", the official U.S. Congress database website, for "House Report 110-597 - Puerto Rico Democracy Act of 2007". 
This lack of representation means that for over 100 years of colonial rule Puerto Rico has been making contributions towards funding US social programs yet it has received little and at times (as in the case of the SSI discussed above) nothing in return for lack of voting that would favor the Puerto Rican economy.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercy11 (talk • contribs) 03:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Puerto Ricans pay all US federal taxes, but they have no equitable representation in the US government

message: In addition to paying federal taxes, Puerto Ricans also pay Commonwealth of Puerto Rico taxes.Puerto Ricans Pay Up, Too. Kenneth McClintock, Minority leader, Senate of Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rico Herald. (Originally published in "The Washington Times" on 21 April 2003.) Accessed 2 November 2020. Also, "because Congress denies Puerto Rico equal treatment under certain key federal programs, the government of Puerto Rico must make up the difference by imposing local income-tax rates that are more onerous than the combined federal and state rates applicable in most other parts of the United States."Puerto Ricans Pay Up, Too. Kenneth McClintock, Minority leader, Senate of Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rico Herald. (Originally published in "The Washington Times" on 21 April 2003.) Accessed 2 November 2020. In 2003, taxes Puerto Ricans paid to the Commonwealth government included income tax, property taxes, municipal license taxes, excise taxes and payroll taxes.Doing Business in Puerto Rico: Tax System. HTRCPA.com HTR-Del Valle & Nieves, CPAs. 2007. Archived on 29 April 2011.
Mercy11 (talk) 03:19, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puerto Ricans also pay Commonwealth of Puerto Rico taxes 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Did you know-Puerto Rico?. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 8#Did you know-Puerto Rico? until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Lettlerhello • contribs 14:30, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Did you know-Puerto Rico?" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]