Talk:Myanmar/Archive 4

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
* Support. Burma is the correct name!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.109.18.10 (talk) 12:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I used the same argument to oppose Ulaanbaatar -> Ulan Bator (The US State Department uses Ulaanbaatar) but that was ignored. Note also that the UN uses Myanmar overwhelmingly. Do we want to list how every government or international organization in the world refer to Myanmar/Burma and tally it up? --Polaron | Talk 00:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The uniqueness of this situation does not lend itself to comparisons with most other naming arguments. Also, some international organizations/governments have more influence than others, so a simple tally wouldn't really help us. --Hemlock Martinis 00:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *So which organizations/countries are valid and which are not? Aside from the UN, the ISO and the IOC both use Myanmar. --Polaron | Talk 00:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * It's not a matter of validity, it's a matter of weight. Also, the UN and IOC's naming conventions are chosen by the states themselves. So of course the UN will call it Myanmar, because that's the name the junta wants. --Hemlock Martinis 00:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Just as I expected. Those that don't conform to your view do not have weight. I will reply with the response I got from the Ulaanbaatar naming: Wikipedia is not an arm of the US State Department. --Polaron | Talk 00:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *It's not just the US using Burma, I shouldn't have singled it out. I should now perhaps remind that common usage is not just about something that is written but also something that is spoken. I believe that despite "Myanmar" seemingly occurs more frequently on the web for whatever reason, "Burma" is orally far more widespread. It could be a good idea if users taking part in this survey stated which form they personally use if we are to determine what's common usage.--Húsönd 01:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Conforming to my views has nothing to do with it. I'm just trying to tell you why the UN and IOC ones aren't helpful. --Hemlock Martinis 01:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: * News sources can call a country whatever they like. I'm uncomfortable with relying on them. As for the UN, we've already established that a member country picks the name that they want the UN to refer to them as, so that tells us nothing. --Hemlock Martinis 01:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: * Also, I did a Google News search for "burma", and the following news outlets use Burma over Myanmar: TIME Magazine, The Telegraph and Reuters were some of the first ones to come up. --Hemlock Martinis 01:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *So again where should we look for common names? Only the EU and the US government count? Everything else does not count? News organizations do not count? Then who determines common names. Searches on Google Scholar turn roughly equal numbers. What about current encyclopedias? Which sources count for determining common usage? Do you want a counter list of news organizations that prefer Myanmar? --Polaron | Talk 01:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Oh and while Time and The Telegraph prefer Burma, Reuters overwhelmingly uses Myanmar. --Polaron | Talk 01:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Here's something: We're an English encyclopedia. What do the governments of the English-speaking countries of the world use? The U.S. uses Burma. The U.K. uses Burma. Canada uses Burma. Ireland uses Burmese for the adjective and Burma/Myanmar for the country. Australia uses Burma. Why do we still have it as Myanmar? --Hemlock Martinis 01:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Do English-language news sources and English-language academic journals count? Or do they not count because they can "call a country whatever they like"? And these governments don't call countries whatever they like, how? Please stop cherry-picking sources. What about modern dictionaries and encyclopedias? What about other governments of countries that have English as an official language? --Polaron | Talk 01:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *This is an international relations issue. Governmental and academic sources are far more useful to us than some cub reporter. And as for cherry-picking sources, I couldn't find anything about Burma on Jamaica's foreign ministry page and I forgot New Zealand. And I still have yet to see why we should use Myanmar instead of the country's proper name. --Hemlock Martinis 02:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Myanmar is currently the country's proper name. Who is it that defines a country's proper name i your view? For what it's worth, hits on gov.ie are at 1:1, gov.au at 2:1, gov.uk at 18:1, US gov at 2.3:1, gc.ca at 1:1, govt.nz at 0.75:1, gov.jm at 0.25:1, europa.eu is at 0.5:1, and un.org is at  0.04:1 (all written as number of hits for burma only : number of hits for myanmar only) Aside from the UK (which overwhelmingly uses Burma) and the UN (which overwhelmingly uses Myanmar), the results are mixed. There is no overwhelming common usage of Burma. Of course the UN doesn't count but the UK does. --Polaron | Talk 02:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The term "Myanmar" is an invention of the junta from when they were consolidating power after the 1988 uprising. Burma is the name of the country. Besides, the links to the respective foreign ministries and their official press releases have already shown which ones officially refer to the country by what name. I'm sorry, but I have to trust their press releases more than a simple Google search. --Hemlock Martinis 02:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Marvin, it does not matter if it a "relic of the colonial period" (although as the Burmese opposition use it it can't be that much of a relic),  as you recognise that it is in common usage, I think you should read the Wikipedia:Naming conventions policy and reconsider you position because it states "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." --Philip Baird Shearer 17:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Well, as I've shown, all of the English-speaking governments use it, so this just isn't some colonial throwback. --Hemlock Martinis 18:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *I'm uncomfortable with that "king-of-the-hill" type of solution, because it would lead to us warring over a bunch of other disputed territories. --Hemlock Martinis 18:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The standard is not to follow the occupying forces, but to follow the bulk of English-language sources.  The appropriate argument to be making is whether "Myanmar" or "Burma" is more common in sources. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need for a "fall back name" as Burma has been and continues to be the official name of the Country in the English-speaking world.  Specifically, by who's authority are we to change this?  Its an important question. István 16:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, indeed. Who's the authority that dictates it should be changed to Burma? As I said, Burma is the name used only in official pronouncements of the US State Dept and the UK Govt. Other references to it are mixed. Other countries have mixed usage as well. The EU uses a mixed name. The UN uses Myanmar. Does the UK have more weight than the UN in what countries are called? What does the ISO say is the English short form name of this country? --Polaron | Talk 17:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dictating a change to Burma? Burma's the country's name. If anything, Myanmar is the name being forced upon the international community by the junta. And it's not just the U.S. and UK, as I've shown. And as I've said before, governments choose what name the UN refers to them as. --Hemlock Martinis 18:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment Why is the UN's usage somehow "invalid"? The UN position is that it will respect and use the name the government of the country in question uses. That's an entirely valid form of reasoning and indeed the names used for most countries have come about precisely because of people using the name the country's government uses - e.g. "Iran" rather than "Persia". Timrollpickering 00:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's invalid because the junta decided that in the UN, Burma should be referred to as Myanmar. Thus, the UN calls Burma Myanmar not because they decided to, but because they have to out of diplomatic courtesy. --Hemlock Martinis 03:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How is that less valid than the case of Iran? A major organisation opting to use the name the country's government uses itself is not just "diplomatic courtesy" - it is an act of recognising the country's autonomy. Governments that choose to use "Burma" are equally making a decision ultimately based on whether they recognise the country's autonomy or not. We shouldn't let the nature of the regime push us into POV soapboxing. Timrollpickering 09:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How the UN chooses its names and how a language evolves its words are two different things.  What's getting lost here is that there is often a difference between the formal name a national government selects for its country and the word for that country in other languages.  The formal name a national government selects is naturally important to the UN, since the UN, as an assembly of the representatives of national governments, must to some extent honor the preferences of any government it recognizes.  But this name is not always the same as the word for that country in another language.  Every government represented in the UN can insist on the formal name it prefers the UN to use, or withdraw from the UN if it is dissatisfied.  But the government of no nation on earth--not the United States, not the United Kingdom, not Iran, not North Korea, and not Burma--can dictate to the speakers of any other language what the word in that language shall be for any country.  Although the Burmese government's claim to legitimacy is one of the weakest of any such claims on earth, this is ultimately beside the fact.  If Switzerland's legislature, through a pristinely democratic referendum, were to decree that the people of all other countries must henceforth refer to Switzerland solely as "Helvetia," the absurdity of the claim would be obvious.  They may refer to themselves as they please, but neither the Swiss government nor the Burmese can decree what the words of another language shall be.  "Persia" became "Iran" not by decree of Iran, but by an acceptance of the word "Iran" by English speakers.  The spread of "Myanmar" as an English word, however, is based on misapprehensions: that governments choose the word for their country in foreign languages, that the UN's selection of formal names for nations is relevant, or that there is colonialism in any case where the people of one country have a name for another country that is different from that country's own name for itself.  If we grant control of our language to governments (domestic or foreign), we also invite abuses.  Governments could decree (and have decreed) that they represent the "German Democratic Republic" or the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea," making neutral POV impossible because the very names lack neutrality.  Wikipedia wisely chose not to play along, selecting instead "East Germany" and "North Korea" as neutral terms.  --LapisQuem 13:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes and whose lead do you think the world was following when it accepted the change from "Persia" to "Iran"? With the exception of historic names, the names used for most countries are ultimately the bulk of speakers in a particular language following the lead of the country in question. If Switzerland opted to rename itself "Helvetia" in all languages then it's likely that a lot of the world would follow suit (as they did over Cote d'Ivoire) - some media organisations would chage their style guides and call it "Helvetia", with the wider population following suit. The tourist board would market the country as "Helvetia", the national sports teams would play as "Helvetia" and again usage would follow. The UN usage is based in the idea that a country can decide what its called and that decision should be reflected. That is an entirely legitimate opinion to hold in deciding what name to use for a country. Timrollpickering 16:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *On Wikipedia, articles are named according to their most commonly used forms by English speakers. They do not abid by trends or whims of a particular government. Húsönd 17:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Huh? if governemnts don't decide the name of a country who does? Wikipedia editors? Americans? "Whim of the government" indeed! SqueakBox 16:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Israel has nothing to do with this. And the United States government uses Burma regardless of which party is in control. Clinton was the one who first started sanctions against the junta, after all. --Hemlock Martinis 21:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Comment:Examining these arguments carefully should lead the unbiased editor to decide for "Burma".  Firstly, the Burmese government does not represent the Burmese people.  The colonial legacy argument is fallacious; most Burmese favour using Burma over Myanmar in English, and do not find it offensive.  Use of "Myanmar" is more AMBIGUOUS than "Burma" as the former normally begs explanation whereas the latter does not. Moreover, what is then the adjective derived from "Myanmar"?  Myanmarian, Myanmarese, Myanmarish, Myanmartian?  Myanmartial (as in "Myanmartial law?)  Burma/Burmese is established, well known and unambiguous.  Finally, preferred usage among news wire services are hardly authoritative, as they are decisions taken by editorial boards and I would suspect that some might change in the near future.  The UN will use whatever the member requests, regardless of common usage.  In Burma, both are used, either "Myanma" (formal, literary) or "Bama" (colloquial, familiar).  WP:NAME mandates the name most commonly used by english speakers, minimizes ambiguity, and prefers a general (public) understanding over a specialist understanding.  That being the case, it is a difficult decision yet "Burma" is clearly the least ambiguous, most used colloquially - even by the Burmese themselves, and therefore preferred. István 17:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Most Burmese [favor] using Burma over Myanmar..." The Burmese who favor "Burma" over Myanmar, favor it just to spite the current government. As for the overall population, I do not believe there is an independent study (without a pro-democracy bias) that supports your conclusion. --Tocino 18:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *First, a junta that held elections and then imprisoned the winner does not represent the Burmese people. Second, how is it "colonialism" and "certain westerners imposing their will" if Aung San Suu Kyi and the rest of the opposition calls it Burma as well? --Hemlock Martinis 17:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm curious, why do you have to comment after every single Oppose or Strong Oppose statement? I don't see the users who Oppose doing the same to the people who Support. The PRC government represents the Chinese people. The Vietnamese government represents the Vietnamese people. These countries don't necessarily have free elections. It doesn't matter what form of government the country has, it still represents the wider population. It's colonialism because the people who are leading the anti-Myanmar charge are the British. The British who invaded Myanmar and created the name Burma. --Tocino 18:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is simply not true.  In Burma, usage is "Myanma" in formal language (literary) and "Bama" in the familiar (colloquial) language.  Neither were invented by the British or any other outside entity, neither bear negative connotations in the country. István 19:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm just a talkative guy, I guess. --Hemlock Martinis 22:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Actually, since Myanmar is the newer name, one could argue that it is the prevalent belief. --Hemlock Martinis 17:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The "Nation formerly known as Burma" perhaps (sadly) captures reality better than all others.István 18:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *GTBacchus put it quite well above when he said "The standard is not to follow the occupying forces, but to follow the bulk of English-language sources." If we did a king-of-the-hill type mentality around here we'd have a whole new assortment of geopolitical issues to have fun with. --Hemlock Martinis 22:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *What occupying forces? This isn't Iraq and there are no occupying forces in Myanmar, to claim otherwise is purem POV pushing and is wildly inappropriate on the talk page of this article, go tell it ot a forum, here we are intereested in building an encyclopedia not in discussing politics, SqueakBox 01:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's nowhere near what I said, but you're entitled to your opinion. --Hemlock Martinis 06:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *It is not what you said it is what you quoted Bacchus as saying. If by king-of-the-hill you mean governments then that is exactly the mentality we need to write an encyclopedia, SqueakBox 16:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: **Would you care to elaborate on how following the whims of every government in the world would make us a better encyclopedia? The Great Soviet Encyclopedia already exists; we need not reproduce it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ***Whims re naming? That is a colossal piece of original research which has no place on wikipedia. What precisely are you suggesting? That we make the decision ourselves. That we let American and British people make the decision. Myanmar is a sovereign country and that makes for a sovereign governemnt who, of course, decide wha\t the country shall be named. Your comment is pure POV pushing and that is strictly prohibited by our policies. And we have an article on the Soviet Union because that was the name of the country at the time. We don't say Stalin was a lunatic and we know better as that would be presumptuous, SqueakBox 16:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ***No, I am suggesting that we follow policy and use the "most common name that does not conflict with other names", as Burma does not. Do what Rnglish does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ****We are an educational encyclopedia and policy does not justify pandering to people's ignorance. Many people mistakenly still believe the country is called Burma, but it isn't. It wiould be like we would have had to wait a number of years to stop calling Sri Lanka Ceylon and start calling it Sri Lanka because most English speakers were unaware of the name change. That is not creating an encycloepdia and if other rivals saw that we, as an encyclopedia, prefer to pander to people's ignorance based on an entirely mistaken readin gof policy, then we will become the laughing stiock of the encyclopedia world, SqueakBox 16:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't believe that is actually so, its a reading of the policy but it also original research and very presumptuous of us to call it anything other than the English version of the name the country uses, so while the United Kingdom isnt actually called that (its a longer name) but the common name is that. Myanmar is an Enmglish word that is the common usage of the term the country is called and to cal it Burma is POV pushing OR, besides its called Myanmar by CNN so the argument that Burma is the common usage term is not true anyway, SqueakBox 00:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *GTBacchus put it quite well above when he said "The standard is not to follow the occupying forces, but to follow the bulk of English-language sources." If we did a king-of-the-hill type mentality around here we'd have a whole new assortment of geopolitical issues to have fun with. --Hemlock Martinis 22:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Almost all news sources that use M add the explanation "formerly called Burma". Most English speakers have no idea where Myanmar is or perhaps even what it is. Very many more English speakers know where and what Burma is. Despite the common appearance of Myanmar in the media and even some specialist literature, the current lemma is therefore clearly in disagreement with the whole spirit and meaning of Wikipedia:Naming conventions. --Espoo 01:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I didn't say most sources used Myanmar, I said that from what I see, Myanmar is much more widely used. And I don't like catering to unintelligent people who don't even know the country changed their name. And hey, if they search for Burma, but get redirected to Myanmar, they learned something. Whereas making it Burma with the (also called Myanmar by a considerable amount of news agencies for instance as well as by the junta) doesn't sit well with me. — i said 01:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *[0) I never said that you said that most sources use M. I said that even those news sources that do use M need to explain it.] 1) WP can't be based on what sources you happen to have seen, especially since this shows you haven't bothered to look at many provided in this discussion and obviously not even bothered to read much of this discussion. 2) WP is not based on what you do or don't like. If you consider Wikipedia:Naming conventions to be "catering to unintelligent people", then start a discussion on that policy's talk page but don't muddle up this discussion with such irrelevant personal opinions that clearly violate WP policy. --Espoo 20:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *My comment about people being unintelligent was foolish. I have since changed my reasoning, but not my opinion: According to the naming conventions, we use what the majority of the English-speaking population use. How do we determine that? Short of a poll of everyone who speaks English, we have to base it on published sources. We can't really go by "what people I know say", because there is no way to quantify that.I know I just contradicted myself; I disagree now with what I said So we should go by published sources. And as best I can tell, there is not a large portion of news and other published sources that use one over the other, largely a political statement against the junta. So, I support keeping it as Myanmar, because I fail to see evidence that a good amount more of English speakers use Burma than Myanmar, but the government does. — i said 01:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *You've obviously not lived in Southeast Asia then where English language media and English language education use Myanmar (yes they do have English media and education there). And what's more, they actually pronounce myanmar correctly too! --Polaron | Talk 12:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Your argument being what? I should go to South-East Asia to learn English? Sorry. I don't need to since I live in England. Burmese exiles who speak English tend to use Burma, although they can no doubt pronounce "Myanmar" even better than Thais or Cambodians or whoever. --Folantin 13:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The point is that people outside your local circle do use Myanmar in serious (i.e. not as a joke) English conversation. Of course, those people probably don't county in your view since you do not know them. --Polaron | Talk 13:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Yes, a joke. It's called black humour. You know, like using "Democratic Kampuchea" to refer to Pol Pot's Cambodia (which no doubt would have been the name urged on us by many editors had Wikipedia existed between 1975 and 1979). If we're going to stoop to the level of your last "argument", I'll counter with the observation that you clearly don't care about the views of Burmese exiles. --Folantin 14:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *We shouldn't inject political views in this debate. It's a technique used by a few here to shut people up so they can't respond to you on the merits of debate which name is more common. And, mind you Cambodia was called Kampuchea in English in the 70s (look at old news reports and encyclopedias) before the official name change. --Polaron | Talk 14:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Yes, I've read some of those things. They make (ahem) interesting reading today... The clinching argument here has been mentioned by other users' above: when people say Burma, nobody has to explain where it is, whereas the reverse is true of Myanmar. Plus, looking at this very article in its current form, we have nine different phonetic transcriptions for "Myanmar". Doesn't suggest there's much familiarity with the term in English!--Folantin 14:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Note that there are other news sources that use Myanmar instead of Burma. Only if you cherry pick your news sources can you conclude that Burma is more common. --Polaron | Talk 12:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: **Actually, the vast majority of news reports use both: Lexis for the last month shows 1315 with both, 448 for Myanmar without Burma, 365 for Burma without Myanmar. Looking at the results shows articles like "Signs of revolt in Burma (or is it Myanmar?)" from the Times of London, and an report from the Asia-Pacific monitoring service of the BBC. (They reflect the usage of the original, but most original reports use Burma after the first reference.) How are these to be counted? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ***I tried a search using Lexis-Nexis Academic with a setting of "News, most recent 90 days (english, full text)" for the source with a date of "previous week". I get 522 hits for "burma AND NOT myanmar", 1882 hits for "myanmar AND NOT burma" and 2983 hits for "myanmar AND burma". I'm sure I can find instances of the other situation where the article uses burma in the first sentence and the rest of the text uses myanmar exclusively. --Polaron | Talk 01:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: **Your original research re Suu Kyi is not a reason to change the name, we are nopt empowered to make these decisions based on our own beliefs, SqueakBox 17:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Um, that's not original research. She and her party have come out and said many times that their country's name is Burma. And since their legitimacy comes from the ballot box and not the gun barrel, I think she would be more in tune with the Burmese people. --Hemlock Martinis 00:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *This has nothing to do with colonization or anything like that. The junta changed the country's name, not the people. --Hemlock Martinis 21:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: WP should not change article names based on how we feel politically. WP is apolitical. -- Alan Liefting talk 05:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, but either way you choose, you make a statement here. Is it then the corrupted military regime of the country that defines the name used in Wikipedia? --Drieakko 11:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: *Support Not sure if this BBC article has been brought up yet (it covers the reasons why either Burma or Myanmar is used), but according to it, the opposition (i.e. the democratically elected government) does not recognize the change, as it was imposed by the illegitimate military junta. Same goes for the US, UK etc. --snowolfD4 (  talk /  @  ) 15:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need for a "fall back name" as Burma has been and continues to be the official name of the Country in the English-speaking world.  Specifically, by who's authority are we to change this?  Its an important question. István 16:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, indeed. Who's the authority that dictates it should be changed to Burma? As I said, Burma is the name used only in official pronouncements of the US State Dept and the UK Govt. Other references to it are mixed. Other countries have mixed usage as well. The EU uses a mixed name. The UN uses Myanmar. Does the UK have more weight than the UN in what countries are called? What does the ISO say is the English short form name of this country? --Polaron | Talk 17:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dictating a change to Burma? Burma's the country's name. If anything, Myanmar is the name being forced upon the international community by the junta. And it's not just the U.S. and UK, as I've shown. And as I've said before, governments choose what name the UN refers to them as. --Hemlock Martinis 18:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment Why is the UN's usage somehow "invalid"? The UN position is that it will respect and use the name the government of the country in question uses. That's an entirely valid form of reasoning and indeed the names used for most countries have come about precisely because of people using the name the country's government uses - e.g. "Iran" rather than "Persia". Timrollpickering 00:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's invalid because the junta decided that in the UN, Burma should be referred to as Myanmar. Thus, the UN calls Burma Myanmar not because they decided to, but because they have to out of diplomatic courtesy. --Hemlock Martinis 03:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How is that less valid than the case of Iran? A major organisation opting to use the name the country's government uses itself is not just "diplomatic courtesy" - it is an act of recognising the country's autonomy. Governments that choose to use "Burma" are equally making a decision ultimately based on whether they recognise the country's autonomy or not. We shouldn't let the nature of the regime push us into POV soapboxing. Timrollpickering 09:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How the UN chooses its names and how a language evolves its words are two different things.  What's getting lost here is that there is often a difference between the formal name a national government selects for its country and the word for that country in other languages.  The formal name a national government selects is naturally important to the UN, since the UN, as an assembly of the representatives of national governments, must to some extent honor the preferences of any government it recognizes.  But this name is not always the same as the word for that country in another language.  Every government represented in the UN can insist on the formal name it prefers the UN to use, or withdraw from the UN if it is dissatisfied.  But the government of no nation on earth--not the United States, not the United Kingdom, not Iran, not North Korea, and not Burma--can dictate to the speakers of any other language what the word in that language shall be for any country.  Although the Burmese government's claim to legitimacy is one of the weakest of any such claims on earth, this is ultimately beside the fact.  If Switzerland's legislature, through a pristinely democratic referendum, were to decree that the people of all other countries must henceforth refer to Switzerland solely as "Helvetia," the absurdity of the claim would be obvious.  They may refer to themselves as they please, but neither the Swiss government nor the Burmese can decree what the words of another language shall be.  "Persia" became "Iran" not by decree of Iran, but by an acceptance of the word "Iran" by English speakers.  The spread of "Myanmar" as an English word, however, is based on misapprehensions: that governments choose the word for their country in foreign languages, that the UN's selection of formal names for nations is relevant, or that there is colonialism in any case where the people of one country have a name for another country that is different from that country's own name for itself.  If we grant control of our language to governments (domestic or foreign), we also invite abuses.  Governments could decree (and have decreed) that they represent the "German Democratic Republic" or the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea," making neutral POV impossible because the very names lack neutrality.  Wikipedia wisely chose not to play along, selecting instead "East Germany" and "North Korea" as neutral terms.  --LapisQuem 13:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes and whose lead do you think the world was following when it accepted the change from "Persia" to "Iran"? With the exception of historic names, the names used for most countries are ultimately the bulk of speakers in a particular language following the lead of the country in question. If Switzerland opted to rename itself "Helvetia" in all languages then it's likely that a lot of the world would follow suit (as they did over Cote d'Ivoire) - some media organisations would chage their style guides and call it "Helvetia", with the wider population following suit. The tourist board would market the country as "Helvetia", the national sports teams would play as "Helvetia" and again usage would follow. The UN usage is based in the idea that a country can decide what its called and that decision should be reflected. That is an entirely legitimate opinion to hold in deciding what name to use for a country. Timrollpickering 16:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *On Wikipedia, articles are named according to their most commonly used forms by English speakers. They do not abid by trends or whims of a particular government. Húsönd 17:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Huh? if governemnts don't decide the name of a country who does? Wikipedia editors? Americans? "Whim of the government" indeed! SqueakBox 16:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Israel has nothing to do with this. And the United States government uses Burma regardless of which party is in control. Clinton was the one who first started sanctions against the junta, after all. --Hemlock Martinis 21:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Comment:Examining these arguments carefully should lead the unbiased editor to decide for "Burma".  Firstly, the Burmese government does not represent the Burmese people.  The colonial legacy argument is fallacious; most Burmese favour using Burma over Myanmar in English, and do not find it offensive.  Use of "Myanmar" is more AMBIGUOUS than "Burma" as the former normally begs explanation whereas the latter does not. Moreover, what is then the adjective derived from "Myanmar"?  Myanmarian, Myanmarese, Myanmarish, Myanmartian?  Myanmartial (as in "Myanmartial law?)  Burma/Burmese is established, well known and unambiguous.  Finally, preferred usage among news wire services are hardly authoritative, as they are decisions taken by editorial boards and I would suspect that some might change in the near future.  The UN will use whatever the member requests, regardless of common usage.  In Burma, both are used, either "Myanma" (formal, literary) or "Bama" (colloquial, familiar).  WP:NAME mandates the name most commonly used by english speakers, minimizes ambiguity, and prefers a general (public) understanding over a specialist understanding.  That being the case, it is a difficult decision yet "Burma" is clearly the least ambiguous, most used colloquially - even by the Burmese themselves, and therefore preferred. István 17:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Most Burmese [favor] using Burma over Myanmar..." The Burmese who favor "Burma" over Myanmar, favor it just to spite the current government. As for the overall population, I do not believe there is an independent study (without a pro-democracy bias) that supports your conclusion. --Tocino 18:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *First, a junta that held elections and then imprisoned the winner does not represent the Burmese people. Second, how is it "colonialism" and "certain westerners imposing their will" if Aung San Suu Kyi and the rest of the opposition calls it Burma as well? --Hemlock Martinis 17:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm curious, why do you have to comment after every single Oppose or Strong Oppose statement? I don't see the users who Oppose doing the same to the people who Support. The PRC government represents the Chinese people. The Vietnamese government represents the Vietnamese people. These countries don't necessarily have free elections. It doesn't matter what form of government the country has, it still represents the wider population. It's colonialism because the people who are leading the anti-Myanmar charge are the British. The British who invaded Myanmar and created the name Burma. --Tocino 18:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is simply not true.  In Burma, usage is "Myanma" in formal language (literary) and "Bama" in the familiar (colloquial) language.  Neither were invented by the British or any other outside entity, neither bear negative connotations in the country. István 19:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm just a talkative guy, I guess. --Hemlock Martinis 22:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Actually, since Myanmar is the newer name, one could argue that it is the prevalent belief. --Hemlock Martinis 17:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The "Nation formerly known as Burma" perhaps (sadly) captures reality better than all others.István 18:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *GTBacchus put it quite well above when he said "The standard is not to follow the occupying forces, but to follow the bulk of English-language sources." If we did a king-of-the-hill type mentality around here we'd have a whole new assortment of geopolitical issues to have fun with. --Hemlock Martinis 22:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *What occupying forces? This isn't Iraq and there are no occupying forces in Myanmar, to claim otherwise is purem POV pushing and is wildly inappropriate on the talk page of this article, go tell it ot a forum, here we are intereested in building an encyclopedia not in discussing politics, SqueakBox 01:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's nowhere near what I said, but you're entitled to your opinion. --Hemlock Martinis 06:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *It is not what you said it is what you quoted Bacchus as saying. If by king-of-the-hill you mean governments then that is exactly the mentality we need to write an encyclopedia, SqueakBox 16:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: **Would you care to elaborate on how following the whims of every government in the world would make us a better encyclopedia? The Great Soviet Encyclopedia already exists; we need not reproduce it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ***Whims re naming? That is a colossal piece of original research which has no place on wikipedia. What precisely are you suggesting? That we make the decision ourselves. That we let American and British people make the decision. Myanmar is a sovereign country and that makes for a sovereign governemnt who, of course, decide wha\t the country shall be named. Your comment is pure POV pushing and that is strictly prohibited by our policies. And we have an article on the Soviet Union because that was the name of the country at the time. We don't say Stalin was a lunatic and we know better as that would be presumptuous, SqueakBox 16:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ***No, I am suggesting that we follow policy and use the "most common name that does not conflict with other names", as Burma does not. Do what Rnglish does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ****We are an educational encyclopedia and policy does not justify pandering to people's ignorance. Many people mistakenly still believe the country is called Burma, but it isn't. It wiould be like we would have had to wait a number of years to stop calling Sri Lanka Ceylon and start calling it Sri Lanka because most English speakers were unaware of the name change. That is not creating an encycloepdia and if other rivals saw that we, as an encyclopedia, prefer to pander to people's ignorance based on an entirely mistaken readin gof policy, then we will become the laughing stiock of the encyclopedia world, SqueakBox 16:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary break 1

message: *Oppose as we should let the Burmese governemnt (which even in a dictatoprship is still the nearest to "the will of the people" that exists) decide their name. its a sovereign country and the legitimate government has the right to decide. No other country wants to call itself Myanmar (ie not a similar a similar situation to China/Taiwan or the 2 Koreas) nor can the oposition be considered a legitimate alternative government in this case. Similarly Yangon should not be called Rangoon. This seems very straightforward, if the government falls and another governemnet renames the country Burma we, following this logic, could then immediately change the name without debate, SqueakBox 20:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe that is actually so, its a reading of the policy but it also original research and very presumptuous of us to call it anything other than the English version of the name the country uses, so while the United Kingdom isnt actually called that (its a longer name) but the common name is that. Myanmar is an Enmglish word that is the common usage of the term the country is called and to cal it Burma is POV pushing OR, besides its called Myanmar by CNN so the argument that Burma is the common usage term is not true anyway, SqueakBox 00:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *GTBacchus put it quite well above when he said "The standard is not to follow the occupying forces, but to follow the bulk of English-language sources." If we did a king-of-the-hill type mentality around here we'd have a whole new assortment of geopolitical issues to have fun with. --Hemlock Martinis 22:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Almost all news sources that use M add the explanation "formerly called Burma". Most English speakers have no idea where Myanmar is or perhaps even what it is. Very many more English speakers know where and what Burma is. Despite the common appearance of Myanmar in the media and even some specialist literature, the current lemma is therefore clearly in disagreement with the whole spirit and meaning of Wikipedia:Naming conventions. --Espoo 01:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I didn't say most sources used Myanmar, I said that from what I see, Myanmar is much more widely used. And I don't like catering to unintelligent people who don't even know the country changed their name. And hey, if they search for Burma, but get redirected to Myanmar, they learned something. Whereas making it Burma with the (also called Myanmar by a considerable amount of news agencies for instance as well as by the junta) doesn't sit well with me. — i said 01:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *[0) I never said that you said that most sources use M. I said that even those news sources that do use M need to explain it.] 1) WP can't be based on what sources you happen to have seen, especially since this shows you haven't bothered to look at many provided in this discussion and obviously not even bothered to read much of this discussion. 2) WP is not based on what you do or don't like. If you consider Wikipedia:Naming conventions to be "catering to unintelligent people", then start a discussion on that policy's talk page but don't muddle up this discussion with such irrelevant personal opinions that clearly violate WP policy. --Espoo 20:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *My comment about people being unintelligent was foolish. I have since changed my reasoning, but not my opinion: According to the naming conventions, we use what the majority of the English-speaking population use. How do we determine that? Short of a poll of everyone who speaks English, we have to base it on published sources. We can't really go by "what people I know say", because there is no way to quantify that.I know I just contradicted myself; I disagree now with what I said So we should go by published sources. And as best I can tell, there is not a large portion of news and other published sources that use one over the other, largely a political statement against the junta. So, I support keeping it as Myanmar, because I fail to see evidence that a good amount more of English speakers use Burma than Myanmar, but the government does. — i said 01:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *You've obviously not lived in Southeast Asia then where English language media and English language education use Myanmar (yes they do have English media and education there). And what's more, they actually pronounce myanmar correctly too! --Polaron | Talk 12:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Your argument being what? I should go to South-East Asia to learn English? Sorry. I don't need to since I live in England. Burmese exiles who speak English tend to use Burma, although they can no doubt pronounce "Myanmar" even better than Thais or Cambodians or whoever. --Folantin 13:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The point is that people outside your local circle do use Myanmar in serious (i.e. not as a joke) English conversation. Of course, those people probably don't county in your view since you do not know them. --Polaron | Talk 13:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Yes, a joke. It's called black humour. You know, like using "Democratic Kampuchea" to refer to Pol Pot's Cambodia (which no doubt would have been the name urged on us by many editors had Wikipedia existed between 1975 and 1979). If we're going to stoop to the level of your last "argument", I'll counter with the observation that you clearly don't care about the views of Burmese exiles. --Folantin 14:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *We shouldn't inject political views in this debate. It's a technique used by a few here to shut people up so they can't respond to you on the merits of debate which name is more common. And, mind you Cambodia was called Kampuchea in English in the 70s (look at old news reports and encyclopedias) before the official name change. --Polaron | Talk 14:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Yes, I've read some of those things. They make (ahem) interesting reading today... The clinching argument here has been mentioned by other users' above: when people say Burma, nobody has to explain where it is, whereas the reverse is true of Myanmar. Plus, looking at this very article in its current form, we have nine different phonetic transcriptions for "Myanmar". Doesn't suggest there's much familiarity with the term in English!--Folantin 14:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *Note that there are other news sources that use Myanmar instead of Burma. Only if you cherry pick your news sources can you conclude that Burma is more common. --Polaron | Talk 12:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: **Actually, the vast majority of news reports use both: Lexis for the last month shows 1315 with both, 448 for Myanmar without Burma, 365 for Burma without Myanmar. Looking at the results shows articles like "Signs of revolt in Burma (or is it Myanmar?)" from the Times of London, and an report from the Asia-Pacific monitoring service of the BBC. (They reflect the usage of the original, but most original reports use Burma after the first reference.) How are these to be counted? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ***I tried a search using Lexis-Nexis Academic with a setting of "News, most recent 90 days (english, full text)" for the source with a date of "previous week". I get 522 hits for "burma AND NOT myanmar", 1882 hits for "myanmar AND NOT burma" and 2983 hits for "myanmar AND burma". I'm sure I can find instances of the other situation where the article uses burma in the first sentence and the rest of the text uses myanmar exclusively. --Polaron | Talk 01:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: **Your original research re Suu Kyi is not a reason to change the name, we are nopt empowered to make these decisions based on our own beliefs, SqueakBox 17:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Um, that's not original research. She and her party have come out and said many times that their country's name is Burma. And since their legitimacy comes from the ballot box and not the gun barrel, I think she would be more in tune with the Burmese people. --Hemlock Martinis 00:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: *This has nothing to do with colonization or anything like that. The junta changed the country's name, not the people. --Hemlock Martinis 21:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: WP should not change article names based on how we feel politically. WP is apolitical. -- Alan Liefting talk 05:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, but either way you choose, you make a statement here. Is it then the corrupted military regime of the country that defines the name used in Wikipedia? --Drieakko 11:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary break 2

message: *Weak SupportBurma is the most common name in the U.K., Australia, and Ireland. President Bush (though I'm not a fan) refers to the country as Burma. I know this is not a political forum, but Wikipedia is very popular and this decision is important and may send a message. The military regime apparently illegally changed the name to Myanmar. Please see my compromise offer below, which I think would make a good solution.Randomfrenchie 00:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary break 3

message: *Google Scholar:  Burma 60,400; Myanmar: 48,000;
*Google Books: Burma 41,000; Myanmar 3,800 
**This is not a typo. If it is  restricted to recent books, there is still a 2:1 ratio in favor of Burma (and some evidence, btw, that Myanmar was not invented by the present regime). Many of the hits on Myanmar, including two of those on the first use "Myanmar (Burma)" in the title, additional evidence that Myanmar is not English, but requires translation.   Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Presumably their main audience is in the UK where the government uses the name Burma for political purposes. Note that Reuters uses Myanmar. --Polaron | Talk 22:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: **The BBC's audience is worldwide; there's a reason they call it the World Service. And do you really believe that the BBC News is at the service of the Labour administration? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ***But why single out the BBC? My point is, looking at the whole picture, usage is mixed. Some prefer Burma and some prefer Myanmar. And it appears neither is dominant in news reports. --Polaron | Talk 22:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ****Because it's an explicit statement, by a reliable source, of which name is more recognizable (and therefore which name satisfies the purpose of WP:COMMONNAME). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Data

message: :Any additional comments:
While Google searches are misleading, a search on English language pages for "burma -myanmar" gets 4.6 million hits (6.1 million for "burma" only) while "myanmar -burma" gets 34 million hits (39.8 million for "myanmar" only). Similar searches on Google News for the news sources located on the largest English-speaking countries are shown above. At a minimum, this shows that "Burma" is not the most common name in English. The question is, when the common name is not obvious, which name should we fall back on. --Polaron | Talk 00:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Google searches are not an accurate metric of actual English-language usage by any stretch of the imagination.  dcandeto 15:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, that's a mischaracterization of my evidence. I've posted links for multiple English-speaking governments, and all of them referred to Burma by its proper name. It's all for the same event (the protests going on right now) so that should indicate the cohesion of the usage. I see no evidence of any mixed usage among the U.S. government - the Clinton and Bush administrations have always taken a hard stance on the regime in Burma, and the CIA and State Department links reflect that. The U.S. government refuses to legitimize the military junta by calling Burma "Myanmar", and we should do the same. --Hemlock Martinis 04:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? Not only are you advocating that Wikipedia take a political stance via the naming of the article, you're advocating that we take the political stance of the United States government? -ryand 13:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One point I'd like to make is that the analysis of Google News, or any other news survey, will be badly distorted by newspapers' utilization of the AP Stylebook.  If the AP Style Guide has decided, on whatever evidence it wishes, to standardize on the name Myanmar, then virtually all newspapers in the United States will follow.  This doesn't mean there is a consensus among 58,000 newspapers that Myanmar is correct; it's a consensus (or maybe just a majority vote?  Who knows?)  of whatever few individuals write the AP Style Guide.  Tempshill 21:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Ref U Thant - there is no mention of Myanmar in the article (as of this moment), only "Burma" - it may not be such a daunting task at all. István 20:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the categories aren't going to be fun. --Hemlock Martinis 21:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Take them to CFD; which has a bot. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: That article is entirely original research though. --snowolfD4 (  talk /  @  ) 13:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No; it is (partly) unsourced, which is not the same thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't necessarily agree that it should be Kolkata quite yet since it hasn't filtered into common use in sizeable sections of the English-speaking world. On the other hand, English is one of the official languages of India (plus it is a democracy) so I don't really mind if Wikipedia reflects that. But governments (especially foreign ones) shouldn't dictate English usage. After all, our article on Bangkok is not under its official Thai name of Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Yuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit (or even, to be serious, just Krung Thep). --Folantin 19:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion