Talk:Battle of Villers-Bocage/Archive 1

message: Surely you don't want to argue that it was 'usual' for a single tank to stop a Division? Put another way: Was it usual or common for a Division's main effort to be stopped by a counterattack of this small scale? DMorpheus 02:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There were 13 Tiger tanks in total that mauled the British Brigade, destroying 48 vehicals. As apposed to one tank taking on a Division.Motorfix 02:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I couldn't prove that it wasn't - strange things happen in war; all battles are unusual, aren't they? Even if we can agree the battle was unusual, I think it needs to be more explicitly explained, if not in the intro, then in the conclusion of the article. As it is, the "unusual" monicker is left to dangle and the uninitiated reader is left wondering why...no?  As for the latter question - yes, I think entire advances were commonly held up by small scale resistance. A single sniper, for example, can stop a battalion cold in the right circumstances - I have no examples near to hand. But wouldn't be wiser to let the reader come to the "unusual" conclusion on his own? I am thinking it would be. Your thoughts?Michael Dorosh 02:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What was "unusual" about it? 

message: I think this part is heavily biased: "It may be concluded that the real reason for Wittmann's success was not so much technical superiority or individual skill, but poorly executed tactics and battle procedure on the part of the 7th Armoured Division."
'It may be concluded'... by whom? This is the typical "I don't like the Nazis so I must blame all their success on outside circumstances"-attitude that's in many of these pages. Wittmann was a skilled tank commander and had scored 88 tank victories before this particular instance. Of course there's more to this extraordinary victory than just his skill, but it sure as hell played a very imposrtant part in it.
I find it funny that the paragraph is titled "The propaganda of Villers Bocage"... because the paragraph itself is exactly that: propaganda.
:: Feel free to edit it. But the facts are that the British chain of command was mostly sacked after the battle, even though in some instances it took a few weeks. The Army commander, Dempsey, was appalled at the performance of his own units. The British made many mistakes (summarized and debated above in this talk page) that invited agressive enemy action. After the initial attack on the road leading out of V-B, the Germans then chose to give battle inside the town istelf. This gave away the Tiger's range advantages. 
:: This has nothing to do with "liking" Nazis or not, although I'm happy to acknowledge I don't ;). There has been a kind of 'worship' of Wittman, who was after all, a skilled but human commander in a much better-armed and better-protected tank, given a terrific opportunity by his foes. This Wittmanphilia tends to overshadow the real significance of the battle, which was a lost opposrtunity for the Allies to break the German front over a large area very early in the Normandy campaign. Remember at the time of the 7th AD attack there was almost nothing stopping the 7th AD from unhinging much of the German front southwest of Caen. Had they held V-B, wheeled northeast and kept moving, the german front between Caumont and Caen would probably have broken. The fact that it didn't is the real story - not how many tanks Wittman's tiger destroyed. I don't think this is 'propoaganda - it is putting things in perspective. DMorpheus 14:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why take credit away from the man? 

message: In the box in the top right the casualties listed do not agree with the narrative description of the battle. According to the section on the battle itself it appears that one Tiger was disabled and a score of British armour was disabled / destroyed, but according to the box the engagement was larger, with eleven axis and thirty allied vehicles disabled / destroyed. I suspect it's because the battle reads from Wittman's point of view and we can't tell what else happened. I don't actually know the specifics but I'm sure someone does so it'd be nice to see this fixed up. 121.45.153.167 22:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is anyone going to act on this? 121.45.58.138 10:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why don't you? That's how wikipedia works. DMorpheus 15:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description of the battle 

message: We have the British armoured casulties down pretty well and am pretty sure the figures for the men are correct although i did worry after typing them in if they covered the fighting in the brigade box the following day - although since there was no figures for the other battalions involved i think it was mindless worrying.
What i do think we need to strengthen is the German losses.
Battle Zone Normandy states 6 Tiger tanks knocked out in the afternoon fighting and Wittmanns in the morning for a total of 7.
In The Struggle For Europe, Chester Wilmot quotes Fitz Bayerlin stating the loss of 6 MK IV.  So it would appear thats that part sorted.
But then we have no information present which states if the 2nd Panzer Division lost any tanks.  Did they?
Other then that, we need some sort of figure in regards to how many men the Germans lost on the 13th during the morning and afternoon fighting around the town.
On top of that, i believe we need to get a definate figure or at least a good guess at the total number of tanks and men involved on both sides throughout the day so the strength section is even more accurate.
--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I have used Hubet Meyer for information regarding how many men the 101st lost killer and captured I would rather have another source to back him up, does anyone know of any other sources which state the losses for the formation in terms of men on that day?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 11:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties and strength 

message: ::: Russell Weigley in "Eisenhower's Lieutenants, pp. 109, has the US 1st ID opening up the Caumont gap on June 10-11. On P 110 he describes the gap as 12 km in width. 
:::D'Este, "Decision In Normandy, p. 176, has the 7th Armoured Div striking through this gap on June 12. Their personnel (CPT Pat Dyas) are quoted as "driving unmolested" to V-B and meeting "little resistance". 
::: Weigley further has US V Corps artillery providing supporting fire to Brit 7th Arm'd on June 13th when they were under attck by elements of 2nd Pz Div. D'Este concurs, p. 188, saying the German attack was "...crushed, largely as a result of timely artillery fire from US artillery units supporting the 1st Infantry Division around Caumont." Finally, he says Bucknall reinforced 50th Div rather than 7th Armoured Div...so reinforcements were available. Weigley, p. 112
::: D'Este states Wittman's unit was "surprised by the astonishing degree of unconcern displayed by the British". p. 180.  Crews were dismounted, no local security was in place, no recon had been done of nearby features. 
::: D'Este, p. 187-8, states that reinforcements for 7th AD could have come from 50th (151st Infantry Bde, which were in Corps reserve) Div or the just-landed 49th Div. 
::: D'Este faults Bucknall for lacking agressiveness and Dempsey and Montgomery for failing to firmly direct the battle, p. 192. MG Armitage called 7th AD's "local tactics....poor". Erskine himself said "I will not try to excuse what was undoubtedly poor local tactics...", p. 193. D'Este again, "...the Battle of Villers-Bocage, one of the most decisive moments in the battle of Normandy, literally cried out for a firm and forceful leader." He calls the official British history a "marvel of obfuscation" 
::: Dempsey, postwar, "This attack by 7th AD should have succeeded. My feeling that Bucknall and Erskine would have to go started with that failure. ...the whole handling of that battle was a disgrace." quoted in D'Este, p. 196.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DMorpheus (talk • contribs) 23:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Will get back to you soon about this, cant bring books into work lol :(--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please don't substitute your OR for published sources. If you have a published source that disagrees with the ones I've cited, great, we will put both sources' views in the article and note the disagreement. DMorpheus (talk) 13:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  "I think we should iron disagreements here in the discussion in regards to what authors have said rather then adding them into the article." Agreed, that's a legitimate way to deal with this. But what you've in fact just done is simply put back most of what you wrote days ago, omitting important context again and omitting cited material again. DMorpheus (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Context 

message: This section states that Wittmann due to German propaganda was given credit of 27 of the 30 destroyed tanks.
Am slightly confused, from British sources I’ve seen the losses being 27 max, do we know were the other 3 came from?   
--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 11:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda section 

message: After reading through the Official History of the campaign and Battle Zone Normandy Villers Bocage (wrote by the dude from Sandhurst) it is clear that Operation Perch was not the "right hook" to outflank the Panzer Lehr but was the fighting XXX Corp was undertaking.
Ill type up the exact workding or a shortend down version next week when the net is back up at home but what i had typed into the article was essentially correct.
Now i understand we need to referance what we type into Wiki articles i can do this at a slightly later date but i dont think we should keep up the myth that Perch was just the Right Hook by the 7th Armour to take Villers-Bocage.
--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operation Perch 

message: Needs updating, Wittmann did not:
"charged his vehicle into the lead British column, splitting it, and then engaged the British forces at very short range before passing along and across the British line into the village."
British forces was already split up, A Squadron halted up on the hill, RHQ and the recon troop etc on the outskirts of town and the rest of the formation on the other side of town.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnigmaMcmxc (talk • contribs) 11:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro Section 

message: I have suggested on several occasions that the V-B engangement and indeed much of the ground strategy of the Normandy campaign are controversial. By that I mean simply that the historians disagree about what the basic strategy was; some of the participants share in this disagreement; some of the authors take shots at each others' work. Thus the notion of adding  a sentence stating the fact that a controvery exists is appropriate. An even better approach is to actually describe the controversy and the views of the various authors and participants. But - since this is indeed a controversial subject, no consensus is possible on what that description ought to be! That's the second piece of evidence that this is a controversial topic. 
The removal of any reference to the controversy merely pushes the POV that no controversy exists. 
As I posted elswhere "Nearly forty years later [writing in the 1980s-DM] the debate over Normandy continues unabated...the Montgomery master plan is as much of an enigma now as it was in 1944." p. 476 "As Dempsey's papers consistenty reveal, the object of the Second Army was to keep the initiative so as to prevent the British front from congealing around Caen; but congeal it did, forcing Montgomery into a head-on and costly confrontation in order for the Second Army to gain more favorable terrain and the space for 21st Army Group to maneuver. ." p. 478 "The Normandy controversies were brought into sharp focus during the post-war years when many of the principals published their versions and when the first of the official histories appeared. The great disparity between these accounts, no matter how well intentioned, served only to thoroughly blur and exacerbate these unresolved questions....The most controversial account to appear about Normandy was not written by Montgomery, but by the British government...Ellis [author of the British offical history-DM] had done his fellow historians...a disservice by sweeping controversy and unpleasantness under the rug..." "Decision In Normandy, Carlo D'Este,  
When we write these Normandy articles while ignoring this debate, we are not only doing a poor job of encyclopedia-writing, we are perpetuating the disservice of "sweeping controversy...under a rug". 
I will restore the sentence, which is well-supported by sources and, obviously, by the edit-warring that has taken over this article. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 16:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, the sources disagree. Please be mindful to discuss edits, not editors. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 17:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy 

message: So what historical events are now disbuted within the article and what exactly is confusing, would you care to add some form of discussion to why you have added them?
--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm truly sorry to say the article has become a mess. There is no strategic context. Disputed issues are presented as uncontested fact. The article relies heavily on a source that has been trashed by at least one other source. The grammar is appalling, and that is one of the sources of confusion. I started to fix it but it is more than I care to take on; new errors are coming in faster than I can fix them. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 03:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New tags 

message: In "Normandie 1944: Le Choc des Blindes" , page 46, the result of the battle is described as follows: "Tactiquement, le succes allemand est donc plutot mitige, mais strategiquement, Wittman a remporte une victoire eclatante en mettant en echec une brilliante manoeuvre de Montgomery. Sans son intervention, il est probable que la Panzer-Lehr-Division, se trouvant envelloppe, aurait du se retirer vers l'est, ouvrant de ce fait une breche telle que Caen aurait ete abandonnee des le 14 ou le 15 juin...". This is not consistent with the mere "tactical victory" with which the article credits the Germans. Indeed the tactical level is trivial; what counts is the strategic setback the Allies suffered. The lost opportunity to take Caen early in the campaign is what this battle is about. Multiple sources make this point clear. DMorpheus (talk) 04:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yves Buffetaut source 

message: Hi have you seen this one it covers the earl days of june 44   http://www.dickinsons-of-whitfield.org/NBL_Hussars.html
js1 19:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: website of possible interest

message: Is it 'Queens' or 'Queen's' Royal Regiment? I am seeing it both ways in various references (and in the article). Likewise is it 131 Infantry Brigade or 131 (Queen's) Brigade? Anyone have an authoritative reference? DMorpheus (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just doublechecking - you've got it both ways in your response. Which is correct? Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 19:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  British unit names 

message: Hi have you seen this one it covers the early days of June 44 in what appears to be an area you have an interest in 
http://www.dickinsons-of-whitfield.org/NBL_Hussars.html , js1 19:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: website of possible interest

message: In this section only A Sqn 4CLY are explicitly stated to have moved from V-B to Point 213. Before I copyedited it out, it then went on to say that 4CLY reconnaissance troop, regimental headquarters and A Company (Rifle Brigade) moved to the side of the road at Point 213. Did they accompany A Sqn or did they follow it? I think this needs clarifying. Furthermore, the last para. in this section states that the 4CLY reconnaissance troop and regimental headquarters were in V-B, so they now appear to be in two places at once. --FactotEm (talk) 10:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My first ever EC! Yes - I figured out the map made it clearer and re-added the info about which units were parked by the side of the road back into the narrative. I may however have messed up the referencing slightly in the process. --FactotEm (talk) 13:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I do think it looked a bit out of place in its original format, but agree it is quite an effective way to open the section. How about now? --FactotEm (talk) 12:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Repositioned images to enhance impact of opening quote. The images are slightly out of whack further down as a result, but that'll all come out in the wash. --FactotEm (talk) 12:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Other than the arrival of B Sqn, I'm not sure that the para and associated quote relating to Lieutenant-Colonel Pearce adds anything to the article. I'm inclined to just delete it. I'm out of time so I'll throw it up for discussion here rather than do anything about it now. --FactotEm (talk) 13:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening moves section - inconsistencies 

message: I realise I am venturing into a sensitive area here, but I've felt it necessary to re-word the criticism levelled at A Coy, 1st RB at the end of the third para in the Opening moves section. Firstly, the previous version was a little weasley. Specifically it referred to "some" historians saying one thing and "others" saying another, when in fact only one source for each side of the contention has been provided. Secondly, the rationale for A Coy's actions was published by Hastings in 1950, whilst the criticism was levelled by D'Este in 1983, which technically means that D'Este's position is a rebuttal of Hasting's, and should, it seems to me, be ordered this way in the narrative.
I also think that the criticism, at this point in the narrative, is an unnecessary digression (there is at least one more such to my mind, possibly more). I suspect that it is a result of previous disputes. I don't intend to do anything about that now, but as the article develops it seems to me that the best place for such discussion is in the aftermath section. --FactotEm (talk) 18:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If I can offer some friendly advice, I think your opinion on D'Este is leading you down a difficult path. Who's to say that Hastings is not "very one sided" and looking to show only the competence of the British forces? He did after all hold a commission in the Rifle Brigade, and was a training Company commander of the successor regiment the Green Jackets in 1951-52.[] I know you've had this discussion before, but if you allow your opinion on D'Este to influence your contributions to this article you run the risk of straying into issues of WP:OR. Like it or not, D'Este is a source for this event. Unless there are reliable sources that specifically discredit D'Este's work, as opposed to ones that present an alternative viewpoint, all you can do is present the counter arguments from other sources and let the reader make up his/her own mind. It's difficult I know, but that's what this encyclopedia is all about. --FactotEm (talk) 08:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

text: The reason I took out the statement that Moore was B Sqn was because on p.18 of the Sharpshooters newsletter you reference above it says that Moore was responsible for the shot that forced Wittman to turn back, which then resulted in the action with Dyas. When Dyas' tank was subsequently destroyed he (Dyas) was able to run to another tank that was blazing but with radios still operational and warn B and C Sqn's about the disaster as they were not yet aware of what was going on. You see the inconsistency here? --FactotEm (talk) 07:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC  What Dyas believed has no bearing on what B Squadron actualy knew. The implications of all this on the head-on meeting are obvious.Mjkenny (talk) 12:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to *read* D'Este before forming your opinion of the book. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 19:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: heh, same right back to you about say the Official History of the campaign...--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hastings, D'Este and A Company 1st RB 

message: I am unable to get an accurate number of MK IVs knocked out or damaged during this battle. There are several different claims and none of which match up:
*Ian Paterson website claims 8 Panzer IVs knocked out inside Villers-Bocage.
*Fortin claims about 15 MK IV and Tigers knocked out - minus the 6 Tigers confirmed knocked out that would mean 9 MK IVs.
*Fortys account is somewhat confusing, its either 3 MK IVs in total or 3 MK IVs during the afternoon fighting and two knocked out approaching the town making a total of 5.
*4CLY War Diary claims 3 MK IVs.
*Taylor tallys the British claims as:Sharpshooters claimed 4 Tigers and 3 MK IVs, Rifle Brigade claim 1 Tiger, 1/7 claim 4 Tigers with there 6 pounder AT guns and a further Tiger and MK IV with Piats. Total 10 Tigers and 4 MK IVs ... one would assume tanks have been claimed twice and/or misidentified as Tigers when in fact they were MK IVs but that still doesnt really answer the question.
*the article itself for ages has claimed 5 MK IVs knocked out.
I guess the quesion is what should be the correct way to approach this?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If the recollections of those in the battle (from the Sharpshooters newsletters) show uncertainty as to whether the tank being engaged was a Tiger or a MK IV then I suspect that we can never know a definitive figure. As a reader I would be content just to know the total number of tank casualties - around 14 - 15 right? Is it really necessary to quantify by type? If you really want to go into this level of detail though, how about phrasing it along the lines of "Reports of German tank casualties vary, but around x Tigers and y MK IVs were knocked out", using what seems like the best source for those figures and adding a more detailed explanation of the differences as part of the ref? --FactotEm (talk) 09:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Panzer IV Losses 

message: This section is actually quite small and consists of short sentenced paragraphs. As part of the copyedit process I'm thinking that the best way to improve it is to roll the sentences into a single para. and remove the section heading so that it becomes the last para. in the Morning action section - the events described all take place in the morning anyway. Also, as fascinating as the quote from Lord Cranley is, I have some problems with it. First, I have Neillands "The Desert Rats" which says (p223) that Cranley's last message was "Burn your tanks and get out". Second, I find it hard to believe that Cranley, in as much personal danger as he was, and with one of his squadrons being torn to pieces, wouldn't have occupied RT bandwidth with something more germane to the predicament he and his troops were in (such as "Burn your tanks..."). I'm inclined to change it to the Neillands version. Comments? Objections? Better Ideas? --FactotEm (talk) 14:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The day's fighting seems to comprise two clearly definable sequences; Wittman and co's actions at the initial ambush and his foray on into V-B; and the later, larger scale battle for the town itself. I think the article would be well served if it was organised as such, but if you think there's a better way I'm good with that. The main thing is to avoid short sections like the current Point 213 one. --FactotEm (talk) 07:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

text: It seems to me that the capture of the ridgeline is a concluding action from the morning action, whilst the gathering of reinforcements is an introduction to the subsequent action. No? --FactotEm (talk) 09:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Point 213 section 

message: I've removed the dispute over whether Dyas actually met the Tiger head on from the main body and placed it in the footnote, largely because the prose read awkwardly. The other problem was the statement that the wreckage of the Tiger was nowhere near the wreckage of Dyas' Cromwell. This statement was unsourced, and anyway Dyas' account states that his Cromwell was destroyed but that the Tiger wasn't, so why would the wrecks be close together? This confusion is compounded by the fact that a previous statement that the Tiger was subsequently disabled by a shot to the tracks by a six pounder has been removed from the narrative. --FactotEm (talk) 11:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The wrecked Tiger is in a location well away the position of the Cromwell and. It could not meet a Cromwell 'head-on' when it was rendered immobile before it could get to the Cromwell.Mjkenny (talk) 12:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reformated the above comment for readability. Notwithstanding the difficulty in finding sources that place Wittman's wrecked Tiger with any degree of certainty, I understand now the problem with wreck location and the implication for Dyas' account. If this can be reliably sourced then we can either remove the details of Dyas' action completely, or move it into the footnotes as an alternative but conflicted detail. --FactotEm (talk) 12:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Dyas simply got the order of events wrong. When you are under fire, wounded and have just watched your friends being killed then a little confusion can be expected.
The fact is Dyas went after Wittmann is a tank  that allowed him little chance of success. He was brave and nearly lost his life for his trouble. Over the years the story took on a life of its own. The simple explaination is that after the 'problem' with the crew member Dyas pulled out to attack the Tiger. Dyas actualy says he thought he was facing the rear of the Tiger. In his  latest book Henri Marie  (Villers Bocage Normandy 1944. Heimdal 2003. now only available second hand at £60 upwards) comes to the same conclusion.Mjkenny (talk) 13:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dyas' action in V-B 

message: I've copyedited the Opening moves and Morning action sections, and whilst there is always room for improvement, I'm wondering if the copyedit tags for these can go? --FactotEm (talk) 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags 

message: I've updated this section to reflect the discussion about where Wittman's Tiger was disabled. It still needs work to tidy up the prose, but it would be useful to have confirmation that the section now covers the salient points. If I can get this then I'll revisit the narrative to tidy it up. My main concern now is that it might be an unnecessarily detailed digression. It might be better handled by simply stating in the main article that Wittman was forced to abandon his tank having destroyed x number of vehicles, and move the discussion of the disputed accounts to the footnotes. --FactotEm (talk) 07:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Handling Wittman's disengagement in the Morning action section 

message: Ive just edited the article so that the British and German forces section are now subsections of a newly created one.
Its only a temp name so please change it to something more fitting.
I have created the order of battle for the battle and placed it on its own page so i will be cutting down these two subsections soon.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plans section 

message: This is an extremely silly quote box.
*There are no quotation marks, and no hard differentiation between where the quote ends and the attribution begins.
*There is no context to the quote, as it doesn't describe the battle in any general or specific way. It seems like a word balloon one might find in a comic book.
*It doesn't seem to match the intended use of quote boxes in other articles, which is to highlight some feature of the article or draw attention to a particular part of the discussion.
I'm struggling to see why it would be on the page. It seems like a cheap stunt to get people to read, sort of like those American "infotainment" shows that keep showing the same "highlight" clip before every commercial break to get you to keep tuning in so you'll watch the keynote interview scheduled during the last five minutes of the show.139.48.25.61 (talk) 19:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree. I think it's quite an effective intro to the section, and relates directly to the events that are described in the first sentence. Quote marks are now supplied, though I would also prefer more differentiation between quoted text and source, but that appears to be a function of the quote box code. --FactotEm (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silly quote box 

message: Erm, why are the dates back to front? Since this is an English story shouldn't they be 'day, month'?
:One of the many things that are going to change in this article once Perch has been passed. Holding onto better source material now, and having a bunch already done, we should be able to get this one slapped into shape in no time. I may then decide to finally get around to finishing off Goodwood lol.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought they were the right way round until recently?Keith-264 (talk) 21:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Might have been, there has been quite a few changes to this one since i last had a punch at it.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Sources make out that this was a major setback and that further operations had to be launched to capture Caen implying more of a strategical setback. Do we have any other sources that downplay the actions at V-B?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Actually that is a good point - a strategic success would have been something to the major benefit of the Germans; are we in agreement then that this should be changed to Operational victory for them?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Amendments

message: 'Missed opportunity'? Isn't this the complaint of every armchair corporal? For as long as the Germans had the means to fight they fought. Manoeuvring them out of Caen failed because they had the fighting power to thwart the attempt. Had it succeeded the Germans would have still had the fighting power to contest an advance beyond Caen (as it turned out after Charnwood and Goodwood anyway). Shouldn't a judgement like this be based on opportunity cost rather than win-lose?Keith-264 (talk) 15:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, i recently bought Beevor's new book, on Overlord, and he implies Monty and Dempsey missed a huge opporunity to capture Caen during the Epsom offensive. I was rather shocked at what i read he basically stated the 11th Armour should have been kept in the bridgehead and mauled by the II SS Panzer Corps! The Critiscism section will be one of the last to be looked at but it will mostly echo Perch since historians comments seem to be one and the same i.e. V-B settled Perch so the same comments apply mostly. Although i agree with you - the Germans were planning on holding the Ridge to the south of Caen and mid point through the campaign couldnt care less about the city. I have that comment sourced somewhere so i might throw it in to even it out a bit?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

text: To me the book is a rehash of the 80s and ignores all the progress made of the last 2 decades i.e. Hart, Taylor etc etc--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms

message: For 101. SS-Pz.Abt. Zetterling gives 37 tanks operational, 8 u/s on 1 Jun 44 and 15 operational and 21 u/s (6 'long term') on 16 Jun 44. I think this is a more authoritative source than Reynolds. The number operational tanks never rose above 20 for the rest of the campaign. "The first action for the battalion was the well-known fight around Villers-Bocage. The casualties 13 - 16 June amounted to 16 killed in action and 22 wounded. Nine Tigers were lost until 16 June." Keith-264 (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Does he give specific losses for the 13? As they did get there rears handed to them on the 14 and lost further tanks; unless you mean in regards to the comment about Reynolds calling the 14 June losses over the top?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I completly agree with you in regards to the last points (you may want to check out Raising Churchill's Army, David French spends most of his introduction pointing out that farce!) however in regards to the number of runners Zet reports i dont think we can use that information in the article because we are told by mulptiple sources that the battalion had lost a huge number of their tanks to mechanical failures etc on the road march i.e. 3rd Coy was down to one tank! but Zet's table doesnt breakdown the info in regards to mechanical problems and combat damage i think we would be speculating; although we could throw in the info that by 16 June there was only 15 runners in the battalion, 21 in repair and nine tigers destroyed. I think the latter is a good idea, ill see where it can be fitted in.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:12, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I have added in the piece of information in regards to the 101st losses and damaged tanks to the article in section 14 June.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: German Losses