Talk:Conservative liberalism

message: This article is obviously a joke.  If William F. Buckley fathered an illegitimate child with Hilary Clinton as its mother, perhaps the offspring might adopt a political philosophy of conservative liberalism, but I doubt it.
:Not necessarily. It's no more ridiculous than conservatives who believe in deficit spending. There are all kind of strange combinations of beliefs and stances out there. Fan-1967 23:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both anonimous contributor and Fan-1967 are probably from the US. Remember that when you use terms as "conservative" and "liberal" in Europe, they have a different meaning. In some European countries the two terms are almost synonims and they both are often connected with the political right. Conservative liberalism is a typical European ideology, combining economic libertarianism and (some) social liberalism. A conservative liberal is a liberal (see for the European meaning...) who hails to the right. In the US we can consider as conservative liberals both the Libertarian Party and many moderate Republican Party's members, like those who are members of the Republican Main-Street Partnership. --Checco 09:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Are you from the US? --Checco (talk) 09:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A joke?

message: I'm no specialist of Swiss politics, but I do want to point out that I have problems with this edit of Checco. There are two (federally represented) liberal parties in Switzerland the Liberal Party of Switzerland and the Freethinking Democratic Party of Switzerland. Judging by their history, name and what I could figure from the German and the English wiki's, the Liberal Party of Switzerland is certainly the more conservative of the two liberal parties. Therefore I have reverted Checco's edit. C mon 09:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear C mon, I think you're wrong. How can a liberal party (LPS) which is strong in cities and urban French-speaking areas be more conservative than a mostly German-speaking and agrarian-based liberal party (FDP)? Anyway, 'cos I am not a specialist of Swiss politics too, I won't revert your last edit, but simply add FDP in the list of conservative-liberal parties, alongside with LPS. Indeed I'm sure of the fact that FDP is a conservative-liberal party (it is considered to be at the right of the political spectrum in Switzerland), and if you say that LPS is more conservative than FDP, this doesn't mean consequently that FDP doesn't fit the conservative-liberal category. Anyway we need badly a specialist to have a final answer to our questions. --Checco 18:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dearest Checco. I think we have a bigger problem. This list is original research if ever I saw it. Original research which I like to do, but not wikipedia material. We need to find sources for every party (and most of the article). BTW I think the FDP is inbetween conservative and progressive liberal, leaning towards progressive. See here their four projects for Switzerland (German, also in French): which are 1) investing in science and education, 2) free market economy, 3) welfare state and 4) international openess. The program also emphasizes openess to migration, equal chances and social tolerance. For me that is a program closer to D66 (the Dutch progressive liberals), then the VVD (conservative liberals). C mon 21:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Switzerland

message: This article is very confusing in that it fails to make a clear distinction between "Conservative Liberalism" and the more well-known and widely mentioned ideology of Liberal conservatism. Most if not all parties mentioned here as "Conservative Liberal" are actually Liberal Conservative (the "compromise" of parties that can be described as both is a rather poor solution and offers neither a citation nor any real argument in its support) and the purportedly distinctive ideology of these parties is about the same as the one described in Liberal conservatism. Either this article was created based on the false assumption that there really is a distinction between the two (while it is another name for the same ideology varying according to the sources, which in fact I think is very likely), in which case it should go for AfD, or there is indeed a distinct concept of "Conservative Liberalism", but it is not explained in this page at all. Clarifications, please.Justice III 00:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is big: Liberal Conservatives are primarily conservatives (with some liberal tendencies, especially over the economy), Conservative Liberals are primarily liberals (although being more conservative that Social Liberals over many issues). This is not something you can refuse to observe. As you can see there are many differencies between Forza Italia (a liberal-conservative party) and Dutch VVD (a conservative-liberal one) over moral issues: most Forza Italia's members, although being liberal-conservative for their free-market creed, defend traditional values. The Republican Party (United States) is liberal-conservative, but we wouldn't find anyone saying that it is also conservative-liberal. Liberal Conservatism and Conservative Liberalism are different ideologies, the first being part of Conservatism and the second being part of Liberalism. I think thw distinction is very logical, don't you? See also Parties-and-Elections, and especially Parties-and-Elections - Explanations. --Checco 11:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion 

message: I put a wrong title to my last edit: obviously I made rollback 'cos I think that UMP, PP and RN are not conservative-liberal parties. Maybe they have some conservative-liberal members, but UMP, PP and RN are definitely conservative (not even liberal-conservative, I guess) parties. Sorry. --Checco 19:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: UMP, PP and RN

message: As someone who proclaims himself to be a Liberal Conservative I would say that there is no real difference; however Liberal Conservative rolls of the tongue in a more pleasant way than Conservative Liberal.
Liberal Conservatives are those who eschew the more authoritarian parts of Conservatism. 
Surely a Conservative Liberal would be one who was more interested in continuing the traditional role of the Church as guardian of our morals? (The four estates etc.)
Thatcherites would be 'Free Market Conservatives' since they differ from traditional Conservatives in that respect. Liberals who espouse support for the free market should be 'Free Market Liberals'? Bearing in mind that both Conservatism and Liberalism pre-date Adam Smith it seems sensible that some Conservatives and some Liberals would not support the free market.
Another difference could be expressed as those liberals who believe in 'Equality of Opportunity' (the defining quality of Liberal Conservatism) as Conservative Liberals and those who believe in 'Equality of Reward' as being Socialist Liberals.
RichardColgate 05:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A question of alliteration or do you mean Free Market Liberals? 

message: Why are the following parties on the list?
Belgium: New-Flemish Alliance, Dedecker List (what is liberal in the ideology of these parties)
Bulgaria: National Movement Simeon II 
Croatia: Croatian People's Party (seems to be more centrist or even social liberal)
Czechia: Civic Democratic Alliance (Klaus party liberal?)
Denmark: Liberal Party of Denmark (classical liberal?)
Estonia: Estonian Reform Party (classical liberal?)
Germany: Free Democratic Party (broad party)
Luxembourg: Democratic Party (centrist liberal?)
Netherlands: Party for Freedom (liberal?)
Peru: Popular Action 
Poland: Real Politics Union (liberal?)
Romania: National Liberal Party and Liberal Democratic Party (centrist liberal?)
Serbia: G17 Plus (liberal?) and Liberals of Serbia (liberal?)
Maybe it is better not to have a list. Electionworld Talk? 12:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are the following parties on the list 

message: I'll remove that image again because it is not appropriate in this page, as in every article about political ideologies. It is only an original reserch spam and there's no consensus for keeping it in the page. --Checco (talk) 17:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Checco, it's individuals like you that make me sick when they don't follow wikipedia guidelines of discussing to achieve consensus before blind blanket reversions. You aren't worth any more of my time, hopefully you find a corner to crawl in to somewhere and never get out. Timeshift (talk) 00:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither you deserve my time, if you insult me and you don't explain why you support an edit, while you ask me to argue about my opposition of it. --Checco (talk) 14:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because I believe it's informative? Why else would I want it? It is you that kept on and kept on removing, without any justification or reason why. In the words of a child, you started it. Timeshift (talk) 15:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it beacause is it was too big, too spamming and too original research. Also anthore user removed it, I guess for the same resons. I even asked to an administrator what was his opinion and he told me that he supported the removal. Stop insulting and being arrogant with me, please. --Checco (talk) 16:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it sure is great to see all of that here on the talk page. Timeshift (talk) 16:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Quote Nightstallion. Indeed the image may be an interesting classification of political ideologies and I saved it in my computer, but I really think that it is not appropriate to employ it in every single article about ideologies, as Nightstallion just wrote above. --Checco (talk) 19:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Everything you write is true, but I simply consider that image not useful for these articles: it is too big and spamming and, even if a political historian drew it, this does not mean that it can be an opinion, nothing more. You can put it in some articles about ideology classification but I really do not think that it fits well here. --Checco (talk) 14:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And you find the best way to deal with it is to blanket revert, repeatedly, without any discussion. Well GOOD FOR YOU Checco! Timeshift (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At the beginning I thought it was simply a bizzarre edit to be reverted quickly, but as so many respected users hold a different opinion, we are discussing about it since the day after. Why do you continue to stick with the past instead of discussing? --Checco (talk) 15:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You reverted more than a couple of times... my beef was more in the way it was removed more than the reasons for removing it. Timeshift (talk) 15:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, a discussion should certainly have been started after the removal, I agree with you there. —Nightstallion 15:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough and sorry, but stop speaking about something we already fixed ten days ago. --Checco (talk) 16:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You shouldn't insist that people stop talking about things. Wikipedians can mention and discuss anything they want. Just because it reflects badly upon yourself, does not mean we shouldn't talk about it. But finally, 10 days later, you are prepared to acknowledge the problem was the way you went about it. So now perhaps I can stop talking about it. Timeshift (talk) 21:43, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to say what you want. No doubt about it. Since the beginning I understood that I could have been less rough, but your comments have always been so rough that I alaways answered with your tone. I do not think that the events reflect badly on myself or on Nightstallion who too dismissed those edits. I am sorry I you felt offended by my actions and words, but, you know, there are so many vandalisms in Wikipedia that you can understand why sometimes I rollback an edit without opening a discussion about it. Then there was the discussion and, as you can see, I have no problems with it: I like to discuss on everything. --Checco (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image:EuropeanPoliticalSpectrum

message: Checco: The article link which was added discusses this subject (conservative liberalism) explicitly and at length. Why do you say it is somehow off-subject? It considers the origins -- and relationship between -- conservatism, liberalism, and their nexus. What other article link do you know that does that? What do you have against this highly-relevant link? Why do you call it "spam"? KyZan (talk) 19:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is written by you and is spam. It is anyway off-subject, in particular because this article is about conservative liberalism, not liberal conservatism. Please don't use Wikipedia in order to advertise your articles. --Checco (talk) 08:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a typical case of Wikipedia:Spam if I ever saw one: Links mainly intended to promote a website. Moreover a blog, should not be linked to see Wikipedia:LINKSTOAVOID C mon (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Checco and C mon: Few things are as innocous as a link to an article supplying further germane and important information. The modest link added let people know exactly what it was by its title. If anyone didn't WANT to read about the origin and relationship between conservatism and liberalism they didn't have to. So congratulations to all of you! You've helped write a truly poor and confusing article. I understand this issue a lot better than any of you -- and you know it. I WAS going to help revise it. But not any more. Good job on vandalizing an article with your ignorance, guys! KyZan (talk) 15:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: From the article you linked it doesn't seem that you know many things but not especially on conservative liberalism as the article was about a different subject, but I believe to you when you say that you are an expert on conservative liberalism (I have no reason for denying it). In any case, I would be very glad if you help us with the article. --Checco (talk) 15:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

text: PS: What does "germane" mean? --Checco (talk) 15:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Checco: You say I "don't seem to know many things." But the article I linked to is FAR better than anything you'll ever write in your life. If you dare to deny this, give us a link to one of YOUR pieces so we can all laugh. You're an insect who isn't worth talking to. You're a Wikipedia vandal who isn't worth my time. Please do NOT reply to me ever again. KyZan (talk) 15:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked for your help and the only thing you did was to offend me. Offending people is not a good way to provide arguments. Your article is very interesting but has nothing to do with conservative liberalism. As I told you I would be very happy you you help us with the article, instead of offending or simply linking your article. --Checco (talk) 16:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: See Also

message: Checco appears to be pushing his POV on this article, by re-adding his unsourced view on conservative liberalism. His article does not even contain any pages that defines conservative liberalism (except the this unreliable webpage). This article contains many contradictory definitions and positions and synthesizes sources that use definitions of conservative liberalism to merge it into one contradictory definition. I sourced the original definition of conservative liberalism. CounterEconomics (talk) 20:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not write the article, or at least not the part you changed, and I think that your version is even worse. --Checco (talk) 20:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The article was not ok both with my and by Wikipedia standards and indeed C mon and I talked about improving it starting from September. I put together your contributions with the content you deleted. I appreciated your work and I consider this just the beginning of the improvement the article needs. --Checco (talk) 20:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

text: In any case, remember that the meaning of "conservative liberalism" may be very different in Europe from the US. Conservative liberals are not just post-1917 liberal, but, in general, the political elite of many European parties before WWI. --Checco (talk) 20:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The word liberalism originally meant classical liberalism throughout the world, but in the 1940's in the United States, it become corrupted. The definition of liberalism is US-centric, and does not apply to other countries. Enforcing the definition of liberalism to mean only the US ideology is POV. The recent addition to this article is pushing the American POV that liberalism cannot be conservative, and adding the adjective "conservative" would make it more classical liberal. "Conservative liberalism is a variant of liberalism, combining liberal values and policies with conservative stances, or, more simply, representing the right-wing of the liberal movement." This quote suggests that liberalism is always left-wing and does not respect economic freedom. Thus, this statement is POV. I suggest to remove your compromise because it is POVand contradicts the official and commonly accepted definition. CounterEconomics (talk) 02:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

text: That sentence is based on the American definition of liberalism. I created a new section that explained why it is actually the American definition and criticized this. CounterEconomics (talk) 06:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is exactly the opposite: that sentence is based on the European definition of liberalism. --Checco (talk) 06:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Checco's revert 

message: With one eye on the above cleanup proposal, I'd like to begin to assemble some sources to help us nail down a definition. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: An anonymous IP keeps adding the UK's Liberal Democrats, a party of tax-and-spend liberals who wish to cut spending on defence, to the list. No sources are provided to back up this ludicrous claim. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue here is that you will need a reliable source that confirms (implicitly at the very least) what you say, otherwise it is essentially worthless. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK Liberal Democrats 

message: I have removed uncited information that has been uncited in some cases for over two years. The fact of the matter is that none of this information is cited and it is not the responsibility of other users to cite information, it is the responsibility of the person who uploads the information. This is a violation of encyclopedic integrity and is misleading to people who read the article who do not notice that it is not sourced. If and when you upload this information back, I expect you to cite your sources. Otherwise, yoru information is biased, opinionated, and not meant to be in an encyclopedia. 
68.230.134.130 (talk) 21:54, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  The Four Deuces (talk) 01:26, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

text: From what I have read the term "conservative liberalism" is used to refer either to liberalism supported by business elites, such as the National Liberal Party (Germany) and the more free market-oriented members of the Liberal International, such as the Free Democratic Party (Germany).  These are two separate groups.  The Four Deuces (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: I have started a discussion thread at the RSN noticeboard about whether Wikipolitique, used in this article, is a reliable source.  Since all text in this article sourced to Wikipolitique is double-sourced, it would have no effect on the text in this article.  The Four Deuces (talk) 00:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Sorry for the clumsy rollback! --Checco (talk) 17:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipolitique

message: At this moment, at the beginning of the article says:
:Conservative liberal parties combine liberal policies with more traditional stances on social and ethical issues.[2] They are generally supporters of economic liberalism and they often identify themselves as law and order-parties, which are tougher on crime and support higher levels of punishment and are more committed to fighting terrorism.[citation needed] Conservative liberals differ from social liberals because they place less emphasis on ethical issues and are often in favour of stricter control of illegal immigration and are usually less tolerant of multiculturalism.
This is not more the definition of "liberal conservatism" than of "conservative liberalism"? At least my impression is that the meaning of the expressions is:
*Liberal Conservative - liberal in economic issues, conservative in social issues (in european words; in US, "conservative both in economic and social issues")
*Conservative Liberal - liberal both in economic and social issues (in european words; in US, "conservative in economic issues, liberal in social issues")
*Social Liberal - centrist in economic issues, liberal in social issues 
--79.169.165.112 (talk) 21:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: These terms do not appear to be clearly defined but I think the first would be a conservative, while the second two would be liberals.  Economic and social policies could vary.  TFD (talk) 23:10, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition 

message: I will nominate this article for deletion soon. This section is an attempt to address concerns prior. Darkstar1st (talk) 08:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article no more warrants deletion than do the articles for other ideological strands of liberalism (classical liberalism, social liberalism etc).--Autospark (talk) 12:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: perhaps then it could be better sourced? the term itself is cited in FRENCH, from a WIKIPEDIA CLONE.  Darkstar1st (talk) 13:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete or merge 

message: Liberal Future was a think tank, not a political party; it no more belonged on a list of current or former parties than the Brookings Institution would belong on such with regard to the US.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.152.32.247 (talk) 02:05, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As a think tank close to the LibDems, Liberal Future can be considered a faction. What about Liberal Vision? --Checco (talk) 13:51, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK parties 

message: Why are the following parties on the list?
Czechia: Civic Democratic Alliance (Klaus party liberal?)
Civic Democratic Alliance (ODA, truly conservative liberal or liberal conservative … I don’t think the distinction makes much sense) was a small party which was not the same as the Civic Democratic Party (ODS) which is the more populist liberalish party founded by Mr. Klaus and which especially later slided towards more populism and more anti-European stance. ODA didn’t make it to the Chamber of Deputies (the lower house of the Czech parliament) in 1998 and then lingered on the fringes of the Czech politics until it was formally dissolved in 2007.
Having said that, I have removed Věci Veřejné from the list, because they have truly nothing to do with liberalism. It has been purely populist more commercial/criminal enterprise for achieving position to misuse the power without much political thinking behind it (e.g., see their pre-election poster (the text says “Vote for our girls!”).
Maybe it is better not to have a list.
I tend to agree. Especially for the crazy post-communist countries which haven’t developed stable parties yet.
--Ceplm (talk) 11:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: ODS definitely has conservative-liberal factions, thus it might be included in the list among "parties with conservative-liberal factions", while ODA is correctly classified among "historical conservative-liberal parties or parties with conservative-liberal factions". VV might not be conservative-liberal in your view, but its conservative liberalism is sourced: what about moving it to "parties with conservative-liberal factions"? --Checco (talk) 12:20, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

text: You're probaly right, but we have a source saying that VV is also conservative-liberal; I think it's correct to have it as it is now, where I would add also LIDEM, a splinter group of VV which was accepted in the ALDE Party. --Checco (talk) 15:18, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Czech parties 

message: Hard to agree that Civic Platform is conservative-liberal. Well, maybe they claim to be.
Their government between 2007 and 2015 was the opposite: taxes increase, punishment for doctors who were against abortion   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.129.178 (talk) 06:51, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The party was not conservative-liberal, but a liberal-conservative party with conservative-liberal factions. --Checco (talk) 07:24, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish parties 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Regarding my latest edit, whose edit summary was cut by my cat (!), I have to say that there is no way that a party can be removed from the list, when it has both consensus (a long-established one!) and sources on its side. As long as there is list comprising all the parties that are conservative-liberal or have conservative-liberal factions, the LDP should stay. Let's avoid edit wars and seek consensus before ditching the status quo! -- Checco (talk) 16:12, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not advocating the status quo. In particular, in Liberal conservatism articles, LDPJ did not originally exist on the list. The LDPJ has never been described as a conservative-liberal in the 21st century. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:23, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. The party has been on the list with at least one reference for almost seven years, it not a “new edit”. Please revert your aggressive removal of it, it isn’t consensus.— Autospark (talk) 07:44, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not talking about Conservative liberalism articles, I'm talking about the Liberal conservatism article. However, in the Conservative liberalism article, it is true that my editing is a new one. I just doubt Checco really wants to keep the "status quo". Mureungdowon (talk) 08:49, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

text: The LDPJ has rarely been described as a conservative liberal in the 21st century. All of the English sources cited were from the '70s. Mureungdowon (talk) 09:06, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no consensus on removing the party from the list. A new consensus is needed to remove it. Please seek it, instead of edit warring. --Checco (talk) 20:48, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

text: The arguments are similar for both articles, but having the LDP on both lists creates a problem. Is it a conservative liberal or liberal conservative party? This is a problem because when authors use either term in passing, they could mean a liberal form of conservatism or a conservative form of liberalism. The first may refer to conservatives who have accepted some liberal ideas, such as private property and equality before the law. The second may refer to liberals who reject attempts to incorporate egalitarian measures such as an enhanced welfare state and equality legislation. Or they can mean vice versa. We need to clearly distinguish the two. TFD (talk) 06:43, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Many political ideologies have partial overlap; social democracy and social liberalism are arguably similar in various respects despite being distinct ideologies from different overarching ‘families’.— Autospark (talk) 07:47, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What's your point? Of course there is overlap in policies among parties. All major parties in the the UK for example think that English should be the main language of government. That doesn't mean that political scientists have a hard time classifying them. Please provide me with any books or papers that clearly define the topics of these articles and explain which parties belong to them. TFD (talk) 07:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: A party can contain both conservative (including liberal-conservative) factions and liberal (including conservative-liberal) ones. --Checco (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The LDPJ is not a liberal because it is not moderate nationalist, but an ultranationalist Mureungdowon (talk) 20:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, factions of the LDP are conservative-liberal. --Checco (talk) 07:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Of course they can. But you seem unable to say which of the factions of the LDP is conservative liberal or liberal conservative. TFD (talk) 03:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That is why we have sources supporting that. --Checco (talk) 07:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japan's LDP