Talk:Battle of Praga

message: The correct name of the event is named rzeź Pragi not masakra Pragi. You can easly check it on google.Correctly translated it should be named Slaughter of Praga, or Carnage of Praga.Two paintings about it are also called Rzeź Praska not Masakra.
--Molobo 23:09, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be nice if those opposed to Molobo's edits would actually explain their views on talk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I think this fragment is properly referenced and after some NPOVing it can be useful for the article. Comments about NPOVing it? PS. The source is discussed at Talk:Alexander_Suvorov#From_my_talk_page.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: It isn't called massacre in Poland

message: I heard that Suvorov engaged in atrocities similiar to the ones in Praga in Turkish city of Ismail. Can anybody confirm this ?
--Molobo 22:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check his bio, I believe it is mentioned there.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ismail

message: I am not sure if all these Wasyl Zukowsklies and Czaadews are results of laziness or somehow intentional. Should we also change the spelling of Warsaw to Varshava etc.? 
As a somehow eyewitness of the later Soviet propaganda I can confirm that during the Soviet time all the references to Suvorov's involvement in Praga massacre were taboo. The general attitude to the Poland Uprisings were in line with usual Leninist's "Russian Empire as a Prizon of Nations", "National-liberation and Peasant uprisings as a prelude to the Proletarian Revolution, etc". As such they were mostly considered as vaguely positive things (similar to say Bolotnikov Uprizing, but they preferred not to dwell on the details of the event. I strongly doubt that there exist any reference e.g. in any official Soviet publications (including the Large Soviet Encyclopedia that vindicates Praga massacre. 
The same goes to the crazy Westernizer Pyotr Chaadaev (if this Piotr Czaadajew is indeed him). The officially-recognized authors of the time like Gavrila Romanovich Derzhavin or Vasily Zhukovsky (I guess the article refer to them) might say something supportive to the events, I would still like to see the references. As was shown by Irpen the alleged Pushikin references connecting Dimitriades and Praga were pure speculations.
BTW Pushkin and Adam Mickiewicz have quite a strong personal connections. Originally they were friendly, later, after the Slavophile verses of Pushkin Mickiewicz broke all the relations. Despite this Mickiewicz was shaken by the death of Pushkin and even sent the Pushkin's killer Georges d'Anthès a challenge for duel. I doubt he would do it if Pushkin would ever praise murdering of Polish  babies.
If this Michail Glinka is Mikhail Glinka and the theatrical work is his opera A Life for the Tsar, then it has nothing to do with the Praga massacre. 
In short this new section #National historiographies is a complete nonsense irrelevant to the Battle of Praga. abakharev 00:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Molobo, I can write a whole lot of irrelevant rant critical to Poland or to certain Poles and post it all around pasting it to articles, relevant and irrelevant. The issue is the relevance here. Did you actually read this bizarre section? --Irpen 01:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The spelling are my fault, I copied them from Tazbir page, and couldn't find equivalents on pl wikipedia to see what's the proper term used on en wiki. Thank you for correcting them.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I do agree that some of the info in this section is not very relevant and should be moved to articles about Russian historiography and/or Soviet propaganda, preferably to the first one - unfortunately it does not yet exist. Nonetheless information on views of the Praga Massacre in historiography is relevant to the article and I see no reason why the entire section is 'irrelevant'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Strange spellings and strange text

message: :For details, see Russian historiography and Polish historiography.
Russian writers and historians have tried to justify this massacre as an revenge for Polish conquest of Moscow in 1612  Janusz Tazbir, Polacy na Kremlu i inne historyje (Poles on Kreml and other stories), Iskry, 2005, , fragment online or the heavy losses Russian garrison sustained during the Warsaw Uprising of 1794. Such reasoning was immortalized after 1831 when Russians once again crushed a Polish uprising (the November Uprising) against Russia's occupation of Poland and Alexander Pushkin compared the Praga massacre with the events of events of 1612: "Once, you celebrated the shame of Kreml, tsar's enslavement. But so did we crushed infants on Praga's ruins". Similar sentiments can be seen in the poetry of Wasyl Zukowski or Gawril R. Dierzawin or theatre of Michail Chieraskow or Michail Glinka. On the other hand Polish literature and historiography has a tendency to be biased in the other direction, dwelling on the description of Russian cruelty and barbarism. 
Similar arguments were used by Russian historians such as Piotr Czaadajew, A.I. Kozaczenka and even Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, and can be seen in such reference works as the Great Soviet Encyclopedia. After the Second World War this entire event, like many other cases of Russo-Polish conflicts, was a taboo topic in the Soviet Bloc, where Soviet propaganda now tried to create an illusion of eternal Slavic unity and friendship. Any references to the massacre of Praga were eliminated from textbooks, existing academic references were restricted and censored, and further research was strongly discouraged. Although after the fall of communism the restrictions to research were lifted, this is still one of the controversial and sensitive topic in the Polish-Russian relations. 
And more on attempts by some Russian authors to justify the mass murder of Polish civilians:
--Molobo 01:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: National historiographies

message: The article states that Joselewicz was killed during the Battle of Praga.  However, other sources (including other Wikipedia articles) claim that he survived and went on to fight (and die) at the battle of Kock in 1809.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.69.225 (talk) 19:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fixed now, through the article needs sources. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Joselewicz die in the Battle of Praga? 

message: Failed due to insufficient citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 21:59, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class review

message: On the morning of 23 (November 3) October 1794 battery Suvorov began shelling the fortifications of Prague. In the evening of the same day the order was read to the troops to storm Suvorov:
"Walk in silence, without saying a word; came to strengthen the fast forward throw, throw into the pit fagot, get down, put to the shaft of the stairs, and the arrows to hit the enemy on the head. Climb briskly, two by two, to defend fellow comrade; if short stairway - a bayonet into a tree and climb it by another third. Without the need not to shoot and hit and drive a bayonet; work quickly, boldly, in Russian. Stay in the middle of her, by the princes to keep up, the front everywhere. The house is not running too begging for mercy - to spare, not to kill unarmed, not to fight with the women and children do not touch. Who killed - the kingdom of heaven; alive - glory, glory, glory."
:Needs a source before we can include it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:12, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resolution Suvorov before the storm 

message: The text explains the massacre of 20 000 civilians as an answer to the killing of 2 000 soldiers. Xx236 (talk) 10:17, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

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