Talk:Missa de Beata Virgine (Josquin)

message: I think this article is too specific with regards to the piece of work it is describing.
There are many Missa de Beata Virgine, not just Josquin des Prez's. I would suggest the article be moved to Missa de Beata Virgine (Josquin), and make this article more about the type of mass and when it would be celebrated. - J.P.Lon (talk) 19:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is about a specific piece of music, entitled the Missa de Beata Virgine.  That's what it is called in all the scholarly literature.  When we have another article about a similarly titled piece by another composer, then that is an appropriate time for the move.  Do you know of any yet?  Thanks, Antandrus  (talk) 19:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Eh, changed my mind.  I think you're right.  I moved it:  we can put a disambig page, with redlinks for the masses by Palestrina, Pierre de La Rue, and others, at the other page, with descriptive matter. Antandrus  (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I can compile a list of composers that wrote some of these masses.... - J.P.Lon (talk) 19:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I was wrong about Mouton and took that out, but added Urrede.  Thanks for adding Brumel.  If you'd like to write a bit about the general idea of a "Missa de Beata Virgine", we need that at the top of the disambig page too.  Antandrus  (talk) 19:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will probably do some work on an article and find some references on the actual style of Mass itself shortly, but will do a draft before putting it online. - J.P.Lon (talk) 19:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup and move needed

message: "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable through citations to reliable sources." The second sentence in this article on Josquin's BVM mass provides no citation for the claim about Sept. 23, 1497. As far as I can tell, the claim comes from E.E. Lowinsky 1976 Proceedings, pp. 68-69, where he connects an entry in Burchard about Ascanio Sforza going to a BVM church in Loreto after a long illness, to the composition of this mass. Lowinsky says "I propose that Ascanio took his singers with him and that Josquin composed the great Lady mass ... for this occasion." In other words, there is nothing behind the Wikipedia statement "evidence from Burchard’s Diary proves that the mass was written sometime before September 23, 1497." There's nothing in Burchard referring to the mass, or to Josquin; it was just Lowinsky floating a balloon. I suggest this second sentence be replaced by: <Though formerly believed to have been a late composition due to stylistic reasons (Osthoff asserts 1513), it is apparent that two movements, copied into the Vatican repertory in about 1507-8, preceded the assembly of the mass as whole, and that the remainder followed between 1511 and 1514.> Bibl. ref. is- Richard Sherr, _Papal Music Manuscripts in the Late 15th and Early 16th Centuries_, Renaissance Manuscript Studies 5 (AIM/Hänssler, 1996), pp. 138-9, 213. PurquhartN6 (talk) 19:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes - feel free to add that. Looks like the Burchard Diary claim got added here. When I wrote the original draft of the article the consensus was the mass was a fairly late work, - if I recall correctly. Antandrus (talk) 19:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Earliest appearance of Josquin's De beata virgine mass