Talk:Pichenotte

message: :Pitchnut should be merged into this article.  The only discernable difference is that pitchnut has no walls but a gutter instead, while French-Canadian pichenotte has walled sides making it possible to do rebound shots.  Clearly the former is nothing but a derivative of the latter, including the name. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]   ‹(-¿-)› 21:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pitchnut does have walls, but it also differs greatly from pichenotte in that it has posts or screws. The combination of the gutters and the posts makes the game much more difficult to play than pichenotte. While pichenotte is mass-produced, the only pitchnut boards that I've ever seen are hand-made. I'm trying to discover the origins of this game, and combining it with pichenotte would trivialize the differences. — Arrowmoose 21:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds plausible to me. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 04:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Hello, I am new to editing so please bear with me. I am wondering what Pinnochi has to do with Pichenotte. Are you promoting a company or suggesting where to buy? Please explainThreeVictors (talk) 03:57, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does Pinnochi have to do with Pichenotte ? Why no link ? Comment 

message: October 5, 2020
To the Editors from DVQuebec 
I have CONFLICT OF INTEREST as owner of www.pichenotte.com and I own the US Trademark for PICHENOTTE and a PAID hobby of making pichenotte boards, I will defer to other editors to correct, amend and edit the entry for pichenotte to provide accuracy and inclusiveness. 
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MY SUGGESTED ADDITIONS, CHANGES AND REFERENCES/ CITATIONS FOR PICHENOTTE
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Pichenotte is a French word derived from pichenette which means 'flick'. https://www.wordsense.eu/pichenotte/ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pichenotte
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Pichenotte is a United States Trademark https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-trademark/ http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/
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The Quebec Museum of Civilisation https://www.mcq.org/en/ 'aka' Musee de la Civilisation de Quebec
https://www.mcq.org/en/ has two collection exhibits for the game of 'pichenotte'.
The round board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisation https://collections.mcq.org/objets/76963
The square board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisationhttps://collections.mcq.org/objets/81406
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- On the square board, the edges of the playing surface are bounded by raised wooden sides. The object of the game is to strike a wooden disc such that it contacts lighter discs and propels them into one of four corner pockets. These pockets are usually larger than those on Indian carrom boards. The playing pieces come in two colors denoting the two players (or teams, in doubles play). An additional piece is colored red (or other unique color) and called the "queen" or "king". 
- On the round board, the playing surface is raised above the floor of the board and is surrounded by a ditch enclosed with an octagonal or round wall. The board is divided into four quadrants with three scoring zones made up of three concentric circles and one center hole. Eight posts, positioned equally around the innermost scoring circle line, surround the center hole. The object of the game is to knock your opponent's pucks from the board while keeping your own on the board.
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- The aim of the square game is to sink one's eleven pieces before the opponent sinks theirs. However before sinking one's final piece, the queen must be pocketed and "covered" by pocketing one of one's own pieces on the same or a subsequent shot. Fouls, such as crossing the diagonal lines on the board with any part of one's body, or scratching (pocketing the striker or sending it off the board), lead to one of one's pieces being returned to the board.
- The aim of the round game is to score as many points as possible, while limiting those of your opponent. At the end of play, all pucks left on the board are counted (according to their position in each of the three scoring zones) and added to any pucks that came to rest in the center hole (these are removed from the board). Many variations of the rules exist.
Rules for Round Pichenotte
World Crokinole Championshiphttp://www.worldcrokinole.com/thegame.html
Pichenotte Dot Comhttps://www.pichenotte.com/tournament-rules-dec-2018/ 
Rules for Square Pichenotte - 
Quebec Association of Pichenotte Players
https://web.archive.org/web/20111107033543/http://www.fqjr.qc.ca/pichenot/fr/regles.html
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The round game also has other names, which does cause confusion, such as:
French: Croquignole flick, biscuit, bun <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/croquignole> 
 
English: Crokinole - Anglicized form of the French Croquignole
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=pichenotte+crokinole&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1#/media/File:A425C._piche_vs_croke1.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=pichenotte+crokinole&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%7D&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1#/media/File:A425C._piche_vs_croke1.jpg
German: KnipsBrat - the flicking board http://knipsbrat.com/pichenotte.html
The word pichenotte is used liberally to describe other games that include the action of flicking.
Such as Pichenotte Hockey https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/246571/pichenotte-hockey
There seems to be no book references to the square or round game of pichenotte, however, there is an important book about the round game aka crokinole called The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kellyhttps://crokinole.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/book1-b.jpg
Publisher: 
1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada
2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012
ISBN: 0-919783-83-X
1. Crokinole (game) I. Title
GV1312 K44 1988  794  C88-093933-8
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There are newspaper articles about pichenotte tournaments and events in Santa Fe, New Mexico:
1) Tavistock Gazette September 27, 2020
https://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Gazette_08_26_20_FINAL-5.pdf
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2) Santa Fe New Mexican October 27, 1998
http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_mall_pdf_1.pdf
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3) Santa Fe New Mexican December 19, 1999
http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_second_st_pdf_7.pdf
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4) The Albuquerque Journal August 10, 1999
http://www.pichenotte.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/border_100_albq_journ_jpg_2.pdf
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There are many webpages confirming the common knowledge that pichenotte also refers to the round game
Round Pichenotte_1https://www.picuki.com/tag/pichenottegame
Round Pichenotte_2https://www.picuki.com/media/1970147651362463394
Round Pichenotte_3https://www.picuki.com/media/1418510301346793730
Round Pichenotte_4https://www.picuki.com/media/1527995846694851666
Round Pichenotte_5https://www.picuki.com/media/1524870362437054634
Round Pichenotte_6https://www.picuki.com/media/945886142124624677
scroll to the end of this page http://www.worldcrokinole.com/photos2015.html
Let's look at some round pichenotte boards for sale on the web:
Round Pichenotte_7https://www.facebook.com/lejouetantique/photos/jeu-de-pichenotte-tout-fait-de-bois/1428302400753132/
Round Pichenotte_8https://www.varagesale.com/i/7hpwtwha-jeu-de-pichenotte
Round Pichenotte_9https://www.ebay.com/itm/193407221347?ViewItem=&item=193407221347
Round Pichenotte_10https://www.varagesale.com/i/rxwq6xve-crokinole-board-jeu-de-pichenotte
Round Pichenotte_11https://encanrivenord.hibid.com/lot/80051-103016-6198/jeu-de-pichenotte-vintage/
Round Pichenotte_12ef>https://offerup.com/item/detail/854976201/</ref>
Let's look at some pichenotte tournament photos from New Mexico
https://www.pichenotte.com/photo-gallery-three/
Friend and Family Playing Pichenotte Photos
https://www.pichenotte.com/photo-gallery-three/
See also 
www.pichenotte.com
Book ReferencesBold text (even though no mention is made of Pichenotte)
The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kellyhttps://crokinole.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/book1-b.jpg
Publisher: 
1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada
2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012
ISBN: 0-919783-83-X
1. Crokinole (game) I. Title
GV1312 K44 1988  794  C88-093933-
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Pichenotte is often used as a pet name for dogs or cats
Pichenotte Pet_1https://www.picuki.com/profile/pichenotte_
Pichenotte Pet_1https://www.picuki.com/profile/princesse_pichenotte
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I have reached out several times to the representatives of the square game, both FQJR (Federation Quebec de Jeux Recreations http://www.quebecjeux.org/portfolio/pichenottes/ 
and AJQP Association de Jeux Quebec aux Pichenotte http://pichenottes.quebecjeux.org/fr/http://pichenottes.quebecjeux.org/fr/ in Quebec about their games and rules and inquired about who makes them, but they have never replied to my phone calls or emails. 
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Items to consider for changing:
2) The current entry for pichenotte states without reference:
"The term is sometimes also mistakenly used as the actual name of other games of this class, such as carrom and crokinole." 
Who is the authority to be cited ? Who is pronouncing this judgment ? and to what purpose ?
3) The current entry for pichenotte states:
"While the specifics are uncertain, pichenotte certainly must have originated from the Indian game carrom. In the mid-19th century, carrom was likely brought to Canada by Indian or British immigrants."
It could be stated more correctly that 'perhaps' or 'probably' or 'likely' pichenotte originated from the Indian game of carrom. 
4) The current entry for pichenotte states:
" Another variant of the game called pitchnut" without a reference. The reference is  https://pitchnut.com/#
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items to consider for adding:
1) What millions of Quebec residents know, is that the word pichenotte refers to many games involving a flicking action. They use the word instead of carroms, crokinole, and croquignole.
They play pichenotte hockey, pichenotte football, and when they flick each other on the nose or the head, they say they are giving a pichenotte. Pichenotte is a common name for animal pets such as dogs, cats, and birds.
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From The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly First Edition []
"Origins of the name''
The name "crokinole" derives from croquignole, a French word today designating: in France, a kind of cookie (or biscuit in British English),[9] similar to a biscotto; in French Canada, a pastry somewhat similar to a doughnut (except for the shape).[11]
It also used to designate the action of flicking with the finger (Molière, Le malade imaginaire; or Voltaire, Lettre à Frédéric II Roi de Prusse; etc.), and this seems the most likely origin of the name of the game. 
Croquignole was also a synonym of pichenotte, a word that gave its name to the different but related games of pichenotte and pitchnut. Crokinole is called knipsbrat ('flick-board') (and occasionally knipsdesh (flick-table)) in the Plautdietsch spoken by Russian Mennonites."
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Wayne Kelly states on page 21 of First Edition of The Crokinole Book https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/
" It is outstanding unusual that, in an age when countless trillions of words have been cranked off the press concerning subjects....next to nothing has been written about a highly popular social activity such as crokinole".
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page 22 
" ...with regard to all responses and photographs received from museums, archives, historical societies and individuals polled from coast to coast....none added information as to the origin of the game."
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The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly ISBN: 0-919783-83-X
Third Edition: ( spiral bound)
https://crokinole.com/index.php/products/
pg 41
"Similar to the search for crokinole history, a surprising lack of information about the game of carrom was positively the rule back in 1987 - at least here in North America. Happily, that void is now being addressed by several diligent researchers, historians, and game aficionados." 
pg 49
" Great variety has existed in the size, shape and weight of the simple crokinole board."
"The early octagonal boards (my personal favorite) weighed close to 11 pounds..."
" Round boards, too, have had great popularity." " Round boards have the tendency to show up in specific geographic regions....in Waterloo and Wellington counties of Ontario and in various communities across Quebec"
pg 59
" The designs and dimensions of crokinole boards seems as varied as the men who turned a hand at making them".
DVQuebec adds: Surely, Crokinole players the world over, owe a great debt of gratitude to Wayne Kelly, now deceased https://worldcrokinole.com/kelly.html although his son Caleb is carrying the torch as 'Son of Crokinole at www.crokinole.com
.......................
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Signed:
ThreeVictors (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit request

message: Pichenotte is a French word derived from pichenette which means 'flick'. https://www.wordsense.eu/pichenotte/ https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pichenotte
DVQuebec (talk) 09:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Fwiw, added:, though none of those refs are WP:RS, being WP:USERG. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:12, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Request Suggestion 

message: Pichenotte is a United States Trademark https://www.pichenotte.com/pichenotte-trademark/ http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/
DVQuebec (talk) 09:58, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously correct, but personally I'm unwilling to insert this with WP:PRIMARY sources. Has any decent secondary WP:RS noticed and bothered to write about it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Request Suggestion 

message: * Quebec Pichenotte Players Association, archived
* Pichenotte Games - Dave Lagasse
*Pitchnut - Lee Larcheveque
*Carrom. org
*The Crokinole Depot - The Beierling Brothers
*KnipsBrat
*Mister Crokinole - Caleb Kelly 
*Crokinole Canada - Ted Fuller
*Crokinole Gameboards - Jeremy Tracey
*World Crokinole Championship
*Chapayev
*Novuss
DVQuebec (talk) 11:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi  I am going to close this edit request. Many of the sources, such as wordscence, Wikipedia itself, and pinterest are not reliable sources. I suggest using scholarly sources or academic journals for sources. Also, much of the language is promotional and needs a rewrite to sound like a disinterested observer. Finally, the formatting of the request makes it difficult to understand exactly what you want to add to the article. I suggest creating a markup in your sandbox that shows an editor what you want the final article to look like. If you need help or have any questions, please post on the help desk. When you are ready to submit a new request, please follow the instructions on Template:Request edit/Instructions with a link to the markup in your sandbox. Thanks and happy editing. Z1720 (talk) 03:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

text: I have responded to this on my talk page. Please do not post the same thing in multiple places, as it makes it harder for future editors to follow the discussion. Z1720 (talk) 16:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: This needs to be redone.  This article needs to focus on the game known as pichenotte, as distinct from a game known as pitchnut and a game known as crokinole or croquinole.  I.e., it should primarily be about the rules and the equipment differences.  The lead should  explain that any of these terms can sometimes be used more generically for the entire class of games, then save most of this detail for a terminology and history section. And it's not even clear which article most of that really belongs at; whichever term is oldest, probably, then cross-reference it from the other articles with only summary information on this at those other pages (see WP:Summary style). I think D. Lagasse has been working on a re-draft.  If enough well-sourced material can be found for it, then a History of crokinole and pichenotte (or whatever spellings are preferred) might even be viable.  Anyway, this is very much like billiards, which can mean "the entire family of the billiards-class games from ancient times to every variant that exists now" (i.e., it can mean "cue sports in general"); or it can (to British and sometimes Irish, Australian, etc. people) "the game of English billiards in particular"; or it can mean (mostly to people outside that just-mentioned category) "carom billiards games as a class" or even more narrowly "three-cushion billiards", or (mostly to Americans) is can me "pool AKA pocket billiards" (but not snooker or Russian billiards or English billiards which are pocket games but are not pool).  We've managed to write comprehensive and well-disambiguated cue sports articles despite this multi-layered terminological confusion. It take some effort, but the same discipline and clarity needs to be applied here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:34, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Like I said at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pichenotte, I think merging this to some sort of :Category:Disk-flicking games article would improve things, but that would involve over-turning the Afd. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:18, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

text: When you're trying to ping someone, do it as  or User:Complete Username (or, if you want a colon after it, .  You can't do Complete Username, which attempts to link to an article by that name, or User:Partial Username, which doesn't work, and might actually ping someone else whose username coincidentally was that shorter name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Apart from getting the "code" right, you must also WP:SIGN in the same published edit, otherwise the ping doesn't work. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

text: I've done a basic cleanup pass on it, mostly for style and formatting issues; here's a combined diff of all those edits. It doesn't really address the structural problems.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

text: "There are many more tournament" was a mistake, fixed. Like I said in my edit summaries, most of the rest was WP:EL, we don't link off-WP in article text (properly formed references is different, see WP:TUTORIAL). Don't do stuff like Wayne Kelly, that's not how we work. I'm not sure how to handle the in-text links to Wiktionary, that's not usually done either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Note also MOS:ITAL. Basically, italics on WP is for titles of book, films, etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Yeah, everything cited in-article needs to be done as a proper reference citation, preferably with a consistent citation template, like .  Typical usage:Parameters that are unknown or don't apply (e.g. no named author, unknown date of original publication) can be left blank, other than title is mandatory, as is URL if it's a website. The other templates like  and  work the same way, except that in ,  is for the entire book (would be  or one of its aliases in the other templates), while a specific article or other sub-work inside the book is . Please do not remove material cited with bare URLs inline (or remove those cites themselvse). Either repair the citations to have the info they need and to be inside  tags, or at bare minimum wrap  around the URL and flag it with  so someone else will expand it.  Nuking people's actually-sourced contributions because you don't like their formatting is destructive and transgresses WP:BITE. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I did some of that too: . However, stuff like  did not appear to me as being intended as refs. If they are good for refs, they can be added back as such. On citing stuff, I use the semi-automatic method described at Help:Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup/3 myself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There are also citation-aiding tools available under Preferences > Gadgets and Preferences > Beta features (how useful they are depends on how much you train yourself to use them; I've had most of them installed for years, but still manually do most citations, ha ha).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Getting messy again 

message: Hello, I have taken great pains to find relevant links for example, to Wayne Kelly and Eckhardt Wettlaufer and crokinole tournaments and clubs and you are deleting them...why ? please explain or put them back and please be careful about grammar...'many tournament' is not the same as 'many tournaments'. Thank you. DVQuebec (talk) 22:04, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: "There are many more tournament" was a mistake, fixed. Like I said in my edit summaries, most of the rest was WP:EL, we don't link off-WP in article text (properly formed references is different, see WP:TUTORIAL). Don't do stuff like Wayne Kelly, that's not how we work. I'm not sure how to handle the in-text links to Wiktionary, that's not usually done either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Note also MOS:ITAL. Basically, italics on WP is for titles of book, films, etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Yeah, everything cited in-article needs to be done as a proper reference citation, preferably with a consistent citation template, like .  Typical usage:Parameters that are unknown or don't apply (e.g. no named author, unknown date of original publication) can be left blank, other than title is mandatory, as is URL if it's a website. The other templates like  and  work the same way, except that in ,  is for the entire book (would be  or one of its aliases in the other templates), while a specific article or other sub-work inside the book is . Please do not remove material cited with bare URLs inline (or remove those cites themselvse). Either repair the citations to have the info they need and to be inside  tags, or at bare minimum wrap  around the URL and flag it with  so someone else will expand it.  Nuking people's actually-sourced contributions because you don't like their formatting is destructive and transgresses WP:BITE. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I did some of that too: . However, stuff like  did not appear to me as being intended as refs. If they are good for refs, they can be added back as such. On citing stuff, I use the semi-automatic method described at Help:Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup/3 myself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There are also citation-aiding tools available under Preferences > Gadgets and Preferences > Beta features (how useful they are depends on how much you train yourself to use them; I've had most of them installed for years, but still manually do most citations, ha ha).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is Gråbergs Gråa Sång removing my links and changing my grammar? 

message: Wow....I don't know if it means much, coming from a newbie like me, but that is some damn good encyclopedic editing !  Gracias !....I think the page is looking great...I will have more to add, but I did some editing on the intro to focus on the family of games, not the definition of the word...DLagasse DVQuebec (talk) 04:19, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank you SMcCandlish... !!! 

message: In addition to the highly significant IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) pronunciation, it is helpful for the general reader to display an easy pronunciation of the word pichenotte. This word is Canadian French and not used in European French. The word is found on page 69 and page 222 in NTC's Dictionary of Canadian French Published by Natl Textbook Co Trade, 1991 ISBN 10: 0844214868ISBN 13: 9780844214863. It is not, as some suggest a 3 syllable word. The first syllable is 'piche' as in 'riche' or 'quiche'. The second syllable is 'notte' pronounced in common canadian parlance as 'nut'. DVQuebec (talk) 04:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of pichenotte 

message: Much of the content of the Pichenotte#Pitchnut section needs to merge to the main article Pitchnut, and much of the content of the Pichenotte#Crokinole or pichenotte section needs to merge to the main article Crokinole.   article should just briefly summarize them, per WP:SUMMARY. Keeping some of the images here to help distinguish between the board types would be valuable, though.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:29, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sectional merges