Talk:Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union

message: Would not the name Territories of the Second Polish Republic annexed by the Soviet Union be less amibiguous? The current name is more ambiguous as it may read either that these were territories of Poland (correct) or that these were the territories mostly populated by Poles (incorrect). --Irpen 16:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure if there is much confusion, this should be better explained in the article unless there is a need for disabig, I think.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides, Poland is and was the name of the state. "Second", "Third", "Fourth" and "Umpteenth Republic" are just short-hand names invented and used by journalists and, at times, historians. However, they have no official status and I'd discouraged their usage in article titles. //Halibutt 19:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The territories was "annexed" by Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania. But in reality they where annexet by Poland in 1921 and no other stare recognized them as Polish. 2A02:AA1:1014:E8F1:3C9F:9BCA:1D58:9BE7 (talk) 19:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd keep the current title, but "Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union" seems fine as well. BTW, we might extend the scope of this article to territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union in the aftermath of WWI as well. //Halibutt 20:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: article's name

message: Is Bialystok part of West Ukraine ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Porar (talk • contribs) 06:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is [[Bialystok]] part of West Ukraine  

message: The article was moved from Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union to Soviet annexations of Polish territories under a claim "More accurate meaning. These is a difference in meaning becdause of the word order in English". Is it really better? I don't see a difference, and hence I'd prefer the article to stay under the older name. PS. Neither name seems to be POVed or such, so this is simply a style issue.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a subtle difference in meaning. 
Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union: implies in English that the territories annexed by the Soviet Union were Polish. The word order lays emphasis on the Polishness of these territories. The territories were administrated by Poland in the interbellum, but were not ethnically Polish. This word order has a specific POV. Soviet annexations of Polish territories: emphasizes the Soviet annexation of the said territories, which is what the article is specifically about. If you do not see a difference, then you would not oppose the change.Bandurist (talk) 20:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

text: I still don't see any difference, even "areas" and "territories" are the same. Neither implies ethnic ownership, I'd think.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  20:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest Soviet annexation(s) of Poland's territories or Territories of Poland annexed by the USSR --Miacek (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union seems indeed better, clarifying that those were territories of a Polish state (adjective Polish by itself may be more confusing and suggest "Polish people only"), indeed. If there are no objections, I'll move the article to that title.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

text: I have to observe that while it doesn't appear to be a problem elsewhere (Ukrainian, Latvian, whatever), the use of "Polish" immediately gets people up in arms over areas of Polish ethnic settlement versus, say, Belarusian ethnic settlement. The title here does NOT say "ethnic Polish" territories, so there should be no issue here regardless of word order. "Polish = of Poland" in all cases. It's getting to be quite ridiculous that for Poland only, every case of the use "Polish" relative to Poland and its territory needs to be disclaimed as not meaning the "ethnic settlement" version. There was no reason to rename the article, and further renaming only makes the "problem" seem bigger and more "real." —PētersV (talk) 14:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As Piotrus said, Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union would be a safe choice. I'd support it. Then the controversies would just fall out.--Miacek (talk) 18:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

text: It is a problem which is occuring in various places in articles here in Wikipedia and in English usage in general. Previously when we wrote about Ukrainian themes we understood that they stood specifically for Ukrainian ethnic items. Today we have a multi-cultural, i.e. multi-ethnic country called Ukraine, and this brings up problems when describing non-Ukrainian ethnic citizens of Ukraine. He we have a parallel situation re Polish. Polish ethnicity or Polish state? When one is used over the other it can introduce an unneeded POV. Here we have an article which deals with ethnic settlements and as a result we need to tread carefully in the usage. Bandurist (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with your correction "The territories to the south were reunified with Ukraine being transfered to the Ukrainian SSR" - it should be reinstated. Chelentano (talk) 17:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Or "Mix of Nationalities in Poland 1931." This appears to be an unusual Encyclopedic entry or reference since it includes the terminology... Data "presumably" taken from the 1931 Polish census. It shows territories that did not belong to Poland in 1931. How then can the information on it be derived from the 1931 Polish census? Dr. Dan (talk) 02:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr.Dan, that map is grossly incorrect, no way the suburban Minsk would have "dominant" Polish population.--Chelentano (talk) 05:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Map does not show Minsk suburbs with dominant Polish population. Scale is misleading to some.--Jacurek (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I too find the map amusing, not only regarding Minsk, but the "rabbit head" protruding into Lithuania (to the west of "Wilno", reaching Kaunas, and the rabbit's ears making a beeline upwards). Henryk Zielinski's  claims (embellished by Krzysztoflew) regarding the portions of territories belonging to Germany are also interesting, since the map is "presumably" based on the 1931, Polish census. Dr. Dan (talk) 00:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any similar map like this one so we can compare both ?--Jacurek (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Similar how, Jacurek? Do you mean another map showing the "dominating nationalities" in Poland "around" 1931? "Presumably" based on the 1931 Polish census? One that includes countries, beyond Poland's borders, not subject to the Polish 1931 census? Seems pretty unlikely. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:55, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe there is Lithuanian or Ukrainian map somewhere?--Jacurek (talk) 19:55, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Seems interesting. Can you determine if the copyright status of the map allows it to be uploaded to our project? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  23:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be great, if the map is easy to understand (unless it is already in English ) we could have both here.--Jacurek (talk) 23:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong, no maps which are biased, or false (like this one), wherever they come from, need to be on Wikipedia. Otherwise, better to have none at all. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  and who is to decide what is biased or false? you? Loosmark (talk) 09:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: *Great, but it let's not forget one crucial fact: we don't know whether the map is based on the census, and to what extent were the census results (if used) modified by later historical research. The speculation that it is based on the said census is just a speculation (added to the map description be me many months ago, and based simply on the dates). I've adjust the description to state that the map is based on other sources as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  01:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Well, if map is not based on census, then what it's based on, if according to that map Kaunas and suburbs of Minsk dominated by Poles? Falcified census or ridiculous Lvov/Minsk/Kaunas data - either way it's a terrible map and it needs to be removed from Wikipedia. What appears to be "speculation" is your statement that Stalin killed 500,000 Poles - you still did not deliver the evidence? --Chelentano (talk) 23:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: The white point representing Minks is not to scale. Every city has the same size big white point so it is easy to find cities on the map. Red areas representing Polish population are not even close to the suburbs of Minsk as Chelentano wrote earlier. As for the accuracy of the map... I am not sure but even if it is not %100 accurate in all the areas, I think it is not that far from being accurate as some people are suggesting. Kaunas area perhaps does not look right but other areas look quite accurate to me. This is just my personal opinion of course. That is why I was wondering how Lithuanian or Ukrainian sourced map would look like.--Jacurek (talk) 06:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  For the record, I also find the Kaunas area puzzling and probably inaccurate. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  16:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Jacurek, of course these are suburbs. This map has a similar scale to this map  so based on that scale, Zielinski's map claims dominant Polish population just about 10 miles from Belorussian capital. So if Kaunas and Minsk are wrong , what else could we expect from this map? Please remove the map from this article and from Wikipedia. --Teotocopulos (talk) 18:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text:  I found the map. I will scan and put it up this weekend. There is no copyright on it. It is a Soviet publication from 1959 which was not officially published. Bandurist (talk) 15:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 15:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I second to that in the anticipation to take a look. Great job ;-) --Miacek (t) 16:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  MAP: "Dominating nationalities in Poland around 1931" 

message: Somebody might want to fix that:
* Elżbieta Trela-Mazur (1997).  Cite error: Invalid ref tag; name "Trela-Mazur" defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
* Wettig 2008. Cite error: Invalid ref tag; name "wettig47" defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
--K.e.coffman (talk) 08:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken refs 

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message: The territories was occupied from Ukraine and Belarus by Poland in 1921, after a war that Poland started in 1919. No other country recognised these territories as polish and that's why the defense pact with France and the UK wasn't applicable to when the USSR entered the territories and gave them back to Ukraine and Belarus. 
Is it really correct to call these areas parts of Poland? It implies that western Ukraine rightly belongs to Poland. 2A02:AA1:100D:A89F:8C0D:D59C:137C:9BA1 (talk) 23:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with this. Suggestions on how to reword? Brusquedandelion (talk) 02:49, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Territories of Poland?