Talk:Volkstaat/Archive 1

message: I have been able to locate work published by the South African Institute for Security Studies in 2003, entitled Monograph 81 - "Volk, Faith and Fatherland" which corroborates with the situation as described in the article.  I have also streemlined the conditions described in "Afrikaner situation" with the detail statistics as provided in this document.  Complete reference to the Institute's published document was included.
The Institute for Security Studies is a higly respected information gathering organisation in South Africa whose credibility can be confirmed at their website at Institute for Security Studies
I have alse sent a request for permission to the Institute to enable Wikipedia article writers to frequently quote information from them as a source.  I will post their reply on this discussion page.
I trust that you'll find the above in order and that the NPOV on the updated article can now be resolved, I therefore remove the NPOV notice in the article until further notice.
: It certainly looks quite better through your and other's efforts - thanks (although I've only had time for a quick look and may give detailed comments later). But I think the procedure is that there first must be consensus on an article's talk page that the article is now Neutral-POV before the tag is removed ... removing it unilaterally is not such a good idea (although it may be deserved). Thanks for understanding. :-)
: I agree with you regarding the credibility of the ISS.
: Regards, Elf-friend 14:11, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A (possibly minority) Afrikaner perspective is well-represented in this article. Perhaps a section on what the ANC, DA, or other local politicians in the Free State think about Orania, perhaps ? (I am not qualified to write that section, I am afraid). Wizzy…☎ 15:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Corroborating source added

message: The corroborating source, while (on first scan), apparently a really good treatment of the subject, doesn't contain absolutely all the information presented in the article (though maybe I've missed some bits). Since the source is a very long text, containing a lot of information, I think that it would be a good idea if specific references to chapters and pages in the book were made, as it's quite easy for someone to slip in a few incorrect statements in among the correct ones cited from the book. Even better would be to look up some of the (many) sources cited by the book, and to add those as more direct references. I'll see if I can do some of this. -Kieran 23:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Below is some text I removed from the "Afrikaner reaction" section. I've added some text, based upon a reliable reference, which I think captures the point that was trying to be made. If someone can substantiate the below text, please put it back into the article, with added references. -Kieran 00:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: An excellent source for this article would be the original Volkstaat Council report, apparently titled "Broadening Democracy for Stability". Unfortunately, I haven't found this on the web, so maybe if someone could get hold of a print copy, and verify some facts about the actual proposal, it would improve the article immensely. -Kieran 00:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More sources needed

message: While the flag depicted in the article is now called the Vryheidsvlag -the fact of the matter is that it was originally called the Strydvlag (Stuggle Flag) which dates from the Anglo-Boer War. This flag was used in battle & was a representation of both the Transvaal Republic & the Orange Free State -the orange bar representing the OFS. This flag was renamed the Vryheidsvlag after the Vryheidsfront (Freedom Front) was formed during the mid 1990s. I think the popularity of this flag among the Afrikaans independence movements is due to the fact that it combines the popular Vierkleur design (as used for the Transvaal Republic / the New Republic / Goshen Republic) which is popular with Boer movements of Voortrekker descent with the Prince Flag (or also known as the van Riebeeck Flag & used as the backdrop of the old South African Flag) -the Orange White & Blue horizontal tri colour - which is popular with Afrikaner independence movements. Those who favour the Transvaal Vierkleur would see the only change being the horizontal orange top bar while those who favour the Prince Flag would see the only change being the vertical bar to the left in the flag.   
 Ron7 20:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Vryheidsvlag is in fact the Strydvlag

message: there is no hint in the article for the volkstaat council (volkstaatraad), which was appointed by the government of national unity in 1994 --Severino 18:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh ... I actually hadn't read this part of the talk page. I've added some information on the Council, with references to the sections in the 1993 constitution, and the relevant acts. The name of the report they produced is mentioned above, in another comment by myself, but I haven't been able to find an online copy, or, for that matter, a copy in any online bookstore. I imagine one could apply to some department in the government for a copy. I think it would be a very useful source of information. -Kieran 02:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Volkstaat council 

message: "Volkstaat (in Dutch "People's state")" Should it not read (in afrikaans)? ?Dr.Poison 07:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name? 

message: Why do I see POV? because this whole article does little to address the legitimate concerns of the non-Boers/non-whites regarding the exclusionary nature of the Volkstaat. The impatience of the Boers in question to resurface ideals that helped inspire Apartheid and anti-black hatred in S. Africa (and the world) should be a red flag for everyone. Many will express a benign desire for them to preserve their culture which they believe is threatened. However, merely coexisting with other groups does not threaten one's own sense of identity. Many examples were given by the Volkstaat and Orania supporters in this discussion and in the Orania discussion, and they fail to realize something. The other groups (the basque, the kurds, the various factions of the former Yugoslavia, ad infinitium) still exist, and with strong life. All have perservered most despite the oppression of their states and empires. S. Africa, seeking not to oppress, should not be regarded as such. Now of course if there are legitimate concerns that S. Africa is oppressing, then those concerns should be addressed and resolved. Yet I have not seen those concerns even raised here. Only generalized assumptions and projections are made of an ambigious "macro state" whose origins are "illegitimate" which logically is "oppressing". these complaints are made in a heartfelt inspired passionate rouse, utilizing the rhetorical methodology of those who spoke against Apartheid. If the argument can work one way, it can work in reverse I take it? But it doesn't work both ways. I do not see S. Africa inspiring Apartheid, nor do I see a S. Africa policy of pushing whites into Gallo-stans and forcing them to speak in Zulu everywhere else in S. Africa. No, what I see is a country whose infrastructure has been gutted out in part by the departing Afrikaaner elite and which struggles with far less support against the far more vocal majority (who still by and large has not received restitution) as well as by these Volkstaaters who pull despite the fragile nature of their government. It's like they are demanding attention even though they just came off the heels of getting exclusive attention during Apartheid. --Zaphnathpaaneah 03:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Zaph, your opinions and views are not based on fact therefore they are not welcome in an encyclopedia.  I am a Volkstaater and I do not view any other person inferior to me based on race.  The Volkstaat ideal is also not to the expense to any other group of people, as they are trying to develop land with no current populations. --Gemsbok1 11:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let us see how well your truthiness meshes with the facts. My opinion is that the Volkstaat movement is based in part on racial seperatism, desguised as "cultural" seperatism (which coiencidentally incorporates a racial white purity seperatist outcome). I have yet to see anyone explain how the Volkstaat principles are undermined by the color of the members. For example, whites can assimilate into the Volkstaat while Blacks cannot. Mixed people also cannot. I also believe that the hoarding of technological experience, access, and infrastructure by the whites over the past 50 years is the bottom line reason that the black government and social structre of S. Africa struggles now. If no black was allowed to become an engineer for example or work as one in S. Africa. How then can you expect the infrastructure (which requires engineers) to flourish just because the restrictions are no longer in place. It will take time for engineers to graduate, start their jobs, become experienced, teach others, and so forth. Under the backdrop of the intellectuals emigrating from S. Africa, there aren't many options for the blacks to learn enginnering for example, and thus the widespread access to the technological education becomes diminished. Same thing with the farms, During apartheid, the best farm lands, and the access to the best technology to cultivate was denied to the blacks, now the blacks have to figure out how to manage whatever they do have without the experience they would have had without Apartheid. Orania on the other hand seeks to once again, promote racial sentiments to hog the experience and thus perpetuate the myth that the blacks cannot function while the whites can. Not to mention the overarching poverty that must be addressed first. The S. African government cannot address all the concerns with the little it has. The Afrikaaner Apartheid government never took on this responsibility. No they only took care of 13% of the population and let the other 80% fall apart. Now that there is true freedom, there is opportunity for the blacks to reclaim much of what they were unnaturally denied. Orania and the Volkstaat system seeks to privatize Apartheid and maintain a social order thoroughout S. Africa. There is no such thing as total isolation these days. It seems rather cheezy that just coming off of a social structure that gave you all the benefits, and withheld them from the rest of the population, you would want to go off to another social structure that guarantees you the same thing... especially considering the fact that the earlir (apartheid) gave you unearned preference at the expense of others. The way I see it, all that you have in your Volkstaat (the techonolgy, the educational and financial backing) was based on unearned access to resources during apartheid. In essence you saved up a million dollars you got during Apartheid and now want to spend it on Volkstaaten. --208.254.174.148 01:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why POV?