Talk:Courtney Love/Archive 1

message: If you compare this page to Cobain's, the sexist assumptions are obvious. On Kurt's, it begins with his societal accolades, doesn't reference his suicide OR family; on Courtney's it mentions that she survives his death, and has a child, and it even mentions the name of Kurt's band. I had to add the Rolling Stone line to give her SOME semblance of artistry in the opening. Really, I'd like to remove the widow line and move the mention of her daughter to a biography section where it belongs. Theoretically, this woman is in wikipedia because she is an artist. I realize her life is famous as well, but Kurt being famous doesn't cause his famous suicide to be mentioned in his opener. Shouldn't we leave the vulgar assumptions to the vulgar and use an encyclopedia to illuminate the subjects we discuss? In other words, who needs to point out she survives Kurt? It's unnecessary.
To continue on, her biography is interrupted by a sidenote about her romance with Billy Corgan. I'd also like to move that to its proper place.
Lastly, her biography headers are ridiculous. "Life after Rehab"? "Marriage and musical career"? Anyway I'm going to edit these things and I wanted people to know the impetus. This page isn't impartial, it's arranged around obvious cultural bias. On the one hand, I realize the popular perception of her. On the other, from my experience most of her actual fans don't really care about Kurt or Nirvana--her relationship with Kurt is/was more of a prism the fans use to view her artistic work, which is mostly studies in tragedy. 
At any rate, again, I wanted to explain why and how I'd like this page to change. Mistertruffles 21:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexism 

message: Court documents like this one: [ http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/clovefelony1.html ] and BMI website show that her legal name is now Courtney Michelle Love. She's also known as Courtney Michelle Cobain and Courtney Love Cobain.
I changed her birth name to "Love Michelle Harrison" because that is what's given in most articles about her. Feel free to change it back if I'm wrong. Secretcurse 01:59, 10 Jan 2005
----
I don't know who you believe...but according to Ms.Love's folks her name was NEVER EVER once Love Michelle. It was infact Courtney Michelle. You don't read around do you? Oh and she was born July 9th 1964 not 1965. She lies people. Get used to it. Most famous people do! If you don't know what sites i got it from. There under Hank Harrison and Linda Caroll..in her novel she even speaks of this same subject and says to her daughter: "Courtney if you don't stop you're lying I'll go on national tv and tell them the truth."
:Search here and it says her name at birth was Courtney Michelle Harrison, and the date is 9 Jul 1964.--Fallout boy 12:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read the boigraphy by Poppy Z Brite and she obviously didn't do her research. Look on Amazon, and it says, god, the author can't even get her subject's name right! She was born Courtney. Nukleoptra 18:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth name? 

message: Someone should most definatly add that one person died and several was hurt badly during one concert in sweden, hultsfred. I think it was 1999
She tried to get the part of  Nancy in  'sid and nancy' but she got  some smaller role  instead. the people making the  movie were a bit afraid she was a bit 'too  realistic' as  nancy, too close to the character!? 
the weird thing is that the relationship between sid  and  nancy is by some  said to be similar to the relationship between kurt and courtney. 
I disagree.  This page is biased enough.
Some of the controversy page is not actually controvsersy, just factoids. I'm going to make other subsets and/or move things around. I also deleted the bit about her website; if there are articles to back this up, fine; otherwise, it's just hearsay. 68.127.22.169 22:25, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy 

message: Not that I'm very interested in Courtney Love, but the third paragraph first states that Love's band was called "Bastard." The next sentence states that it was called "Hole." Which was it? —Frecklefoot 19:59, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Bastard or Hole?

message: I know she had a band named Hole. As for Bastard, perhaps it was a typo or a previous name for the band (or a previous band). It being a previous name sounds familiar. MardukZero 16:27, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Hole.. Maybe Bastard

message: In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 21:07, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay Icon Project 

message: A lot of recently added information seems questionable and/or biased (i.e. the paragraph on her father). I think the article needs more citations because obviously there's a lot of bull out there about Courtney Love. Tenn 17:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy/Neutrality 

message: Her name is listed on the bisexual musicians on wikipedia; she is not bisexual, and is definatley not openly bisexual. i don't know how to remove this, but someone should
: I'm responding to the above person.  I'm not sure that she is openly bisexual, but in interviews she has talked about being with women.  It is strongly rumored she's been with women, in fact several of her fans have claimed such (unverifiable) especially during her last drug phase.
she lost her virginity to a woman, i know that much. it's mentioned in her biography. Rocketqueen 01:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bisexual? 

message: Why does someone keep removing her ministerial title? Carolynparrishfan 14:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree we should only leave it in if she uses the title herself.  The ULC may not be the theological equivalent of years of seminal training but it isn't significantly less than what's required in other religions, including Western Reform Taoism.  --Yamla 00:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Universal Life Church|ULC]] 

message: according to Jewish rules, if ones mother is Jewish, then he is also Jewish, so Courtney is Jewish.
*Not in terms of religion, and that's Jewish rules, not legal rules. --FlareNUKE 22:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But if you read here http://redsea.blogspot.com/..."Sorry, Courtney, you are not Jewish by traditional Jewish religious law because your maternal grandmother, Paula Fox, was not born of a Jewish mother"....  Love's mother was not Jewish, even her Grandmother wasn't Jewish...So why is she on the list of Jewish-American Musicians??? --Tom 22:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish 

message: She also talked a lot about Scientology on her site and how much she loved it.  I personally saw her writing about how great it was at her message board.  Unfortunately it is unverifiable at this time as the original board went down, but the webmaster of that board, Brooke, could most likely verify this.
:I cannot agree or disagree with the above statement because I have never read any such writing on the board by Courtney about scientology, however, in regards to Love's religious beliefs: it is an already established fact that Courtney Love has been practicing Buddhism, on and off, for about two decades. Blackmorningsun 3:39 September 14, 2006
From her posts on hole.com regarding Scientology, which I read at the time, I would argue that Courtney Love's interest in Scientology was rudimentary and pragmatic. She was spending time with some very successful, famous Scientologists and became curious, briefly; she has reiterated this in numerous interviews, most recently in More4's 'The Return of Courtney Love'documentary, directed by Will Yapp: ('I've tried everything. I've been a Catholic, I've been Episcopalian,... I've tried Scientology - I have! - and I really believe that Buddhism is the most transcendent.. path to Enlightenment for me'). The documentary shows Love chanting at her altar, and stating that she tries to chant for an hour each day. Love's Buddhist practice has been a relative constant for decades, as blackmorningsun points out. White hotel 10:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientology 

message: I think that people should have an article about the manga she co-created, Princess Ai ( BTW Ai mean's love in japanese, & the woman that did character deisgns for the manga is AI yazawa(Sp?), so, it's a pun). Also, in the manga, her lover, Kent is DEFAINATLY a resemblance of Kurt Cobain...
Maybe I'm imaginging, or didn't this article have a paragraph on it?
I agree with you. I think this article needs something about that manga. Oh, any you're right Ai means love in Japanese, but I don't think it is a pun on the character designer, but more on Courtney Love 's name. Jon Fawkes 01:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Princess Ai 

message: I am not a big fan of Courtney, but I bumped into her page and it seems a well-written page (although other users above complain about the neutrality of some of its contents). Shouldn't it be nominated as a good article? It seems okay enough or close enough to be one. Any positive/negative comments are welcome. -- Xanthi22 23:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: Where was she born, and where did she grew up? I scanned the article, but I couldn't see it mentioned anywhere. (but maybe I'm just blind) Isn't that usually stated at the beginning of articles like this? Cine 16:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthplace 

message: Link 26 "Courtney Love: She definitely wouldn't have apologized at the Grammy's" is dead.  Please consider finding another source for the same content or removing link.
: The link has been removed. NickBurns 15:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Re-inserted using  to retrieve the article from the Wayback Machine.  If you deleted it for other reasons, please feel free to re-delete, but Wikipedia:Using the Wayback Machine is usually a better alternative to simply deleting a dead link.  Xtifr tälk 23:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: That picture does not represent what courtney normally looks like. is there any way we could get a more accurate picture?
:I would like to address your point.  I'm not a fan of Courtney, nor her music, but I have met her, and she is quite beautiful in person, so why does every photo of her look as if she is some kind of walking zombie?  I'm just wondering what the deal is. —Viriditas | Talk 12:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, just saw the plastic surgery link.  Fooled again... —Viriditas | Talk 12:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, I preferred the way she looked before the surgery...  In any case, it's weird to not have any pictures at all up right now.  Preferably there should be at least two representing the old/new look.  --Starwed 06:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: I just went through the article and tried to clean it up a bit, grouping information together by subject, etc. The whole post-rehab section seems to be almost a plug for her. I mean, I'm glad she's sober and all, but the amount of info in the article on work that hasn't even been released seems a bit odd....
Also, although there are many references, there's an awful lot of info in here without sources or references. I removed some of the more obvious examples. NickBurns 15:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Another editor asked me to note here why the images were removed from this article.  None of them had the mandatory detailed fair-use rationale justifying their use, except for the main image.  The main image was great but recent changes to WP:FUC instigated by Jimbo Wales means we can no longer use non-free images to depict living people, amongst other things.  Hopefully we will be able to find a free image to depict Ms. Love.  --Yamla 19:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: I've reintegtrated some of the Controversy section back into the other sections so it makes chronological sense, since it was a mess before, either with or without subheaders. The cleaned-up 'Legal issues' section, as it now reads, is more of-a-piece, I hope. The Brando controversy now sits in the context of her family history, and the murder conspiracies sit within the Love and marriage section (if they belong anywhere in this article, it's there). I'll expand both of these and tie up loose ends.
Edit to add: Nick, I took out the Doubleday quote because it doesn't strictly refer to family history, only to the content of Carroll's book. I don't think we lose anything by cutting it, really, but if you feel otherwise...
I suggest we think about making a separate 'early musical history' section that deals exclusively with Love's endeavours pre-Hole - there's plenty to choose from - then add a section on Pretty on the Inside. In the UK at least, POTI was considered a breakthrough record at the time.
White hotel 09:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure 

message: Much to my dismay, Eric Erlandson was not including in the early history / hole section of this article.
As such, I took the liberty of including Eric Erlandson's name in the section about the formation of Hole. 
Eric's contributions are often overlooked and I'd rather that not be the case here.
Also, Don Fleming's name was added as co-producer of Pretty on the Inside.
cheers.
Abigail trotsky 04:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Props 

message: An interview was published today where she reffered to Depp saving her life while she received CPR in the Viper Room. The date isn't mentioned but it might be worth while inserting it somewhere.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/biography/story/0,,1969244,00.html
(Karst 22:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viper Room 

message: I belive there should be a section on the murder theroy on her article-considering she is one of the prime suspects —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.241.139.127 (talk) 03:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a source that says she's one of the 'prime suspects'? I thought so myself, but considering she was crying and seemed genuinely angry that Kurt died, I now no longer believe she was the one who killed him. But either way it doesn't matter, she has all this money now. ― Sturr ★彡  Refill/lol 18:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muder Theroy 

message: The Villlage voice reported that at a show last winter, Courtney told the audience that her band wouldn't play Lollapalooza "because of Snoop and Cypress Hill". She went on to ask, "Does that make me a racist?"
At another show, Courtney apparently led the audience in a chant of racist slurs, including the n-word.
Lena2006 13:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist? 

message: There is a correction needed in the Trivia section. Courtney has been a Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist since age 24 and introduced Eric Erlandson to this practice (both thank Shoshu on the sleeve of Celebrity Skin), but after her latest rehab stint, Courtney returned to Nichiren Buddhism through Soka Gakkai International (SGI), as she states at MoonWashedRose.com news comments section.  There she declares she was responsible for shakubukuing (converting) people to Nichiren Shoshu on the streets at her early days, even wearing a borrowed white polyester suit and earning US$10 for each 12 people converted, but also says that the practice worked "like CRAZY," and between months chanting, she moved from a "box" in Hollywood Boulevard to a "fantastic" guest house in Bel Air. However, she sided with SGI because "it works far better than the Temple Buddhism (Nichiren Shoshu) wich is all in Japanese and they dont really want us geijin there anyways, my friends in Buddhism are the best people n my life, and i look at President (Daisaku) Ikeda as a friend and now that i dont have to stand on street corners and its far more elite- its more liek the jews - we dont need you bit your welcome to be greatful enough to join= always more effective anyway than crazy NSA era Nichiren." Daviddinnizz 20:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buddhist school 

message: This is a small error, but an error none the less.  The article says there is a "controversy over the identity of Love's grandmother."  There is no controversy over this - her grandmother is the author Paula Fox.  The controversy is over the identity of her GRANDFATHER.  Again, this is a small error, but it causes that section to make no sense.  I cannot correct this myself, so I'm posting it here in the hopes that someone who can will do so.  72.186.143.34 07:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy over identity of maternal grandfather 

message: lol Israell 06:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article could dowith a picture, preferablly one of her looking her mess, becuase that's how people see her. Nukleoptra 23:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oooh, burn. But seriously we need a new image Fissionfox 10:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No picture??? 

message: A link to a very good article she wrote on DRM: http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 121.210.128.13 (talk) 12:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DRM discussion on Salon 

message: We need a new image. Does anybody have an image we can use on this article? Fissionfox 10:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got quite a few, but I don't konw how to add images to articles.Nukleoptra 18:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Too bad my pc crashed. Now I've lost half the pictures... may the search continue. :( They were prety good ones too.Nukleoptra
That picture right now neats to be gone. It's blurry and awful. Anyone got a more flattering picture of Clove? Nagyovafan
It is somewhat blurry...although I never really thought that a "more flattering" photo of Courtney Love was really possible.  John1701 15:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New image 

message: Can someone please add a citation to the comment "She has openly confessed to hiring a hitman to kill Cobain"? I would do it myself, but I've never heard that before, and frankly am skeptical of its veracity. Otherwise it should be removed; it could be libelous otherwise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Acc78 (talk • contribs) 02:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source needed for hitman claim 

message: In its current state, the article is everything WP:BLP says it should not.  With a person as controversial as Love, nearly everything needs to be cited.  Accusations about being given LSD as a child, heroin use during pregnancy, and court-ordered rehab must have sources.  Any poorly sourced controversional information should be moved to the talk page as soon as possible so that it can be re-added if and when sourced are found.  ShadowHalo 16:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Major work needed

message: Someone deleted the text below. I could see it justified as belonging on the page, but I understand the argument against as well. I personally think it's better to have something that acknowledges the fact that Love has been both subject and object to enormous quantities of infamy and slander, since it qualifies her fame. Another reason to leave this sort of thing in is that some dumb Nirvana fan will come by and make his own conspiracy theory paragraph if there isn't already one. Plus, the paragraph informatively discusses the aspects of Broomfield's film which were in favor of Love's innocence.
:Since Cobain's death, conspiracy theories have speculated that he was murdered at Love's instigation. The theory gained media attention with the release of Nick Broomfield's documentary Kurt & Courtney in 1998. Kurt & Courtney featured interviews with, among others, Love's father, as well as private investigator Tom Grant, who both believe Cobain may have been murdered and want the case re-opened. The film also included an interview with punk singer and media sideshow El Duce (real name Eldon Wayne Hoke), who claimed that Love offered him $50,000 to kill Cobain. El Duce's band The Mentors was most famous as a paid spectacle on 1980s talk show Hot Seat, where El Duce appeared alongside guitarist "Sickie Wifebeater", wearing a black hood and inciting the audience by claiming to endorse rape, drugs and illegitimate children.Wally George: "The Greatest Man Ever"MENTORS on HOT SEAT part 1 As the film goes on, Broomfield notes he has "come to a stage where I wondered how much of anything anyone had been telling me was true". In 1998, Broomfield told an interviewer, "I think that he committed suicide. I don't think that there's a smoking gun. And I think there's only one way you can explain a lot of things around his death. Not that he was murdered, but that there was just a lack of caring for him."Miller, Prairie. "Kurt and Courtney: Interview with Nick Broomfield". Minireviews.com. 1998. Mistertruffles 07:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Broomfield film

message: On her myspace blog, she said "and yes i made some possibly gtoo szelf denigratinmg comments about my age- but if im o0ld flea amnd antony aRE 5 years older and kravits is 2 and Grohls about to be my age and billys my age-= so whatever-", suggesting that she was born in 1967.--Trustbother 10:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of birth 

message: I saw the BLPC tag here so I went over the article quickly and took out several obvious violations.  I'm leaving the tag in, because there are probably subtler BLP violations in the way various sources are characterized, or because of the use of unreliable sources, or other things I missed.  --Allen 02:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  deleted some BLP violations 

message: Why is this there?  There's no mention of Alaska in the main page. Tarc 23:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only thing I can find (through google) is that she worked in AK briefly as a stripper. Surfeited 18:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikiproject Alaska? 

message: I remember seeing on TV at the time her talking about the upcoming release of Live Through This at a memorial for Kurt, but cannot find a reference to it anywhere on the web. If it can be found, I think it should be included in her article under... hey - why is there no *Controversy* section in her article? Certainly there's been more than one controversy regarding Courtney Love. wbm 00:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm guessing that creating a Controversy section would result in moving half of the Biography section to it such that there would be two very different retellings of her life.  As it is, anything controversial seems to be contained in the Biography section.  17Drew 05:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-Promotion at Cobain's Memorial 

message: Substituted at 20:25, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: change ((The Virgin Prunes)) to ((Virgin Prunes))
: Done: Minor edit only.—KuyaBriBriTalk 00:46, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virgin Prunes 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: In the last sentence of the second paragraph under the section 1988-1991: Beginnings of Hole, "eleased" should be "released".
TheRealHB (talk) 02:46, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: and thanks!  Jay (talk) 07:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: eleased typo