Talk:American football rules

message: There's a discrepancy here between the Free Kick secion and the Safety section, regarding the free kick after a safety in the NFL. Must it be a punt in the NFL (as it says in the Safety section), or may it be a place kick (as it says in the Free Kick section)?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.68.134.1 (talk) 20:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that too and I can't find any evidence to support the "punt only" statement. The NFL rules posted here state that "On a safety kick, the team scored upon puts ball in play by a punt, dropkick, or placekick without tee."  So if no one comes up with any evidence to the contrary I'll change that. Gr8white 18:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can confirm that in all levels of play (NFHS, NCAA, and NFL) any type of kick is allowed for the free kick after safety.  --Coz 20:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only caveat to "any type" that is if it is a placekick, it cannot be with a tee.  Jamesfett (talk) 07:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, varying by level. A tee is allowed in NFHS. —C.Fred (talk) 02:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Free kick after safety 

message: Copy/pasting this here, because it was erroneously placed on the article page by 216.40.234.227. Aerion//talk 04:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: False start and Illegal procedure are identical. In fact, it used to be "Illegal procedure: false start". I'm guessing that it was just shortened for convenience. Illegal formation is also illegal procedure. Illegal motion and Illegal shift are distinctly different from Illegal procedure. —Wrathchild (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And in general you can tell one from the other based on if the ref blows the play dead or not.  In the case of false start, they blow it dead immediately, however, usually for illegal formations, they will allow the play to continue in order to give the defense the option of declining the penalty.  Also, which penalty is involved can be derived by which of the officials throws the flag.  A false start will signaled by one of the linemen to either side of the line of scrimmage, however and illegal formation will be signaled by someone behind the formation.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bkporter12 (talk • contribs) 17:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not necessarily true. In most cases, the illegal formation will be called by the wing officials—who are looking along the line of scrimmage and can see whether there are seven men on the line or not (and have the best view for borderline on-/off-the-line calls). The referee or umpire may spot five in the backfield and flag the illegal formation (after a quick recount to make sure there aren't 12 men on the field), but primary responsibility for the call is with the linesman and line judge. —C.Fred (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

text: The Delay of game signal is the folding of the arms in front. Placing the hand on top of the head is Ineligible receiver downfield. —Wrathchild (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I concur the penalties could be grouped in a more logical fashion. Snap infraction is also missing. Btyner 20:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penalty section suggestion 

message: I think this article is destined to be partially incomplete. The full rule book is rather large, but even so, it is rather inomplete right now. As I have time I can add more, but it's going to take a long time.
: That's okay, as long as at some level it is complete in describing the most basic rules of the game.  We can get more detailed as time goes on.  Ask yourself, "What would a European or an Asian need to learn the rules of the game?" or "What would a non-sports fan need to learn the rules of the game?"  For example, there's no sense describing instant replay if the article doesn't make clear the system of first through fourth downs.  --[[User:P--Locarno 22:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Referee's discretion. It falls under the general heading of palpably unfair acts. The referee can enforce any penalty he deems appropriate, which would likely be to award a touchdown. —C.Fred (talk) 07:11, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

text: Oddly enough, that exact situation occurred in the 1954 Cotton Bowl between Alabama and Rice.  Rice player was running down the sideline and an Alabama player came off the bench and tackled him on the 42 yard line.  Referee signaled touchdown even though the ball never actually made it to the endzone.  Even though this has only happened once (in major college and pro football), the general rule is as mentioned above: it would be up to the ref.  I can imagine a situation where it would be plausible that someone might be able to catch the runner and the person on the sideline merely interfered with him allowing other players to catch up.  In that instance, I can imagine a 15 yard unsportsmanlike or illegal participation penalty being enforced as opposed to an automatic touchdown.Bkporter12 (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This section is destined to be incomplete 

message: "(Because the referee is also the only person who can stop a play in progress, he is in practice the only official who can flag for penalties that stop a play, such as encroachment.)"
Is this really true?  It seems that on false starts and encroachments, several officials throw the flag and several officials blow the whistle.  Also, on ordinary plays, it seems that a back judge or field judge would blow the whistle to signal, for example, down by stopped forward progress or other ends of plays.
Whether or not it's "true"--it's obscure and unimportant. No one has ever seen a controversary or a ruling or anything where the official throwing a flag had the right or not to call it. More importantly, because it does occur all the time, all the sections on ballcarriers being down and plays ending have ignored the role of the official's whistle. Play continues until the whistle blows. Play ends once the whistle blows--even if "inadvertant."--Buckboard 06:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The play continues until it is over; the official's whistle only announces to all the players that the play is over. If the whistle ends the play, it is an "inadvertent whistle," and the team in possession has some options (unless it's the NFL). And the guilty official has to buy the rest of the crew dinner. :) As for the referee being the only person with certain privileges, historically, he was the only person who could signal a touchdown, but that's been changed for at least 30 years, probably longer. —C.Fred (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  referee? 

message: When a play is reviewed by a referee and he rules that the down is to be replayed, the clock must be set back to show the time of the original ball snap.
Musicwriter 16:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reviewed plays 

message: I'm thinking that a split-off may make sense, to turn this into a more generalized discussion of rules, and set up a Comparison of American football rules article. I'm picturing basically two tables: the first for general differences in rules, such as length of game, overtime, goalpost width, hashmark distance; and one specifically for penalty enforcement differences (e.g. pass interference is 15 in HS, 15 or spot in college, and spot in NFL). By way of comparison, see Comparison of baseball and softball. Anybody else agree? —C.Fred (talk) 16:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison article? 

message: Please add referee hand signal images,
or links to such, thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marycontrary (talk • contribs) 21:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is, most of the charts of signals are copyrighted. I'm sure that either the Federation has copyright to the chart in my rulebook or licenses it and has permission to print it. So that rules out an inline image. As for links, I doubt they'd be that far down the tree from the NFL rules link, so they should be easy to find. —C.Fred (talk) 22:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a chart of the NCAA official football signals (PDF). Here's from the NFL. Not sure about copyright issues; I'm sure they are copyrighted. I don't know how much can be used under "fair use". However, if someone were to do something like was done here and release it under a CC license that would be great. —Wrathchild (talk) 18:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please add referee hand signal images 

message: How about a section that depicts ways in which possession of the ball is legally changed?  Here's a list that I found of all the legal ways:
:1) When the offense does not advance 10 yards in 4 downs
:2) After points are scored
:3) The end of the first half
:4) When defense intercepts the ball
:5) When a kicked ball lands out of bounds
:6) When a kicked ball is caught
:7) When a punted ball stops
How about it? Give it some thought.  And I agree that this section is doomed to remain incomplete.  mikecucuk 18:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Change of a half is not a change of possession. The team that lost the coin toss at the beginning of the game chooses whether they want to receive or kick at the start of the second half. Rarely (usually when there's a strong wind) the team will choose to kick. But, really, no one has "possession" at the start of the game or half, so it's not really a "change" anyway. —Wrathchild (talk) 18:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding a new section

message: Under "plays from scrimmage," a recent change was "the ball is dead when...a kicked ball comes to rest".  I thought that field goal attempts that come to rest on the ground are still alive and won't be whistled dead?  Thus this should be reverted to "punted ball comes to rest"?  Not sure.  --Locarno 13:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's the same principle for any kick. The text "and no player is attempting to play it" should probably be added, but generally, if a player wants to play the ball, he's going to do it before it comes completely to rest. —C.Fred (talk) 21:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This came into play in overtime of the 1999 Georgia Tech vs Georgia game.  Georgia got the ball first and were intercepted in the endzone allowing Georgia Tech the ability to win the game with a field goal.  Tech coach George O'Leary called the field goal attempt on 3rd down, but Georgia blocked that attempt.  The Georgia players started running off the field in celebration, but the Tech kick holder (and Quarterback) realized the ball was not dead and went and fell on the ball.  Since the kick attempt had been on 3rd down, Tech attempted the field goal again, this time making it and winning the game 51-48.Bkporter12 (talk) 17:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  rules question--kicks 

message: I believe that the rule is that there can be no more than 11 players on the field at the start of the play. I've never seen a team penalized for having 10 players on the field. —Wrathchild (talk) 17:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: College used to require exactly 11. In one case, a team bandaged a man up and put him in the back of the end zone so they had 11 on the field. Currently, as a practical matter, it's not required at any level. The NFL rule says it best: teams shall be 11 players each, but there is no penalty for fewer than 11 players on the field at the snap. (Although the offense must have at least 8....) —C.Fred (talk) 01:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected. Federation requires a team to begin the game with 11 players, but they can play with fewer after that point. I can't find similar text in the NFL rulebook (though as a practical matter, an NFL team won't be that strapped for players), and I don't have access to NCAA. —C.Fred (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Does the offense actually have to have 8? I know seven are required to be on the line, but is it required that there be a player in the backfield?--RLent 15:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In Fed, definitely. Otherwise, once the team gets possession, they enter an unbreakable cycle of penalties for planned loose-ball plays ("fumblerooskis"), since there's no back to receive the snap. There's not specific coverage like there is with basketball, though. (There, a team can continue to play with one player if they have a reasonable chance of winning (i.e. are protecting a lead late when everybody fouls out). If the game's unwinnable by the team with one player, it's called.) —C.Fred (talk) 16:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, NCAA does have to have at least 8 (on offense).  Rules say you have to have 7 on the line, and the ball has to be snapped to someone behind the line.  Therefore, the minimum is 8.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bkporter12 (talk • contribs) 17:48, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of players 

message: :...any part of his body other than the hands, forearms, or feet touches the ground...
How, pray tell, does one touch one's forearm to the ground without touching one's elbow, unless one's arm is broken? An elbow counts for downing.
From the 2006 NCAA rulebook, rule 4-1-3:
:When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot.
This section should just say "hands or feet". —Wrathchild (talk) 18:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the NFL rules different - i.e. the player has to be physically TOUCHED while he's down to consider a player down? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.132.23.148 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, and that's noted in the description of the rule. —C.Fred (talk) 02:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the player simply has to be deemed "down by contact" and does not have to be physically touched while on the ground.  i.e, if i were to push the ball carrier and he were to fall down it would still be a down, even though i only pushed him and did not actually fall on him.  The rule, years ago, actually did require the player to be physically touched by the defending team while on the ground, but this rule was removed because it caused too many injuries.--Marqmike2 22:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Downed player 

message: I noticed that the kickoff description read as follows:  "The ball is placed on a tee (or held) at the kicking team's 30 yard line (35 yard line in college and 40 for high school)..."
It might be useful to describe exactly when the ball may be held instead of being placed on a tee.  I do believe that if the ball falls off the tee due to wind three times (i'm not positive if its three) then the player is then able to have someone hold it.  I'm not positive though.
--Marqmike2 22:31, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it can be held at any time. This is undesirable for the kicking team though, as it hinders the ability of one member of the kicking team (the player made to hold the kick) to get downfield. --67.165.6.76 01:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  With tee, or without tee.  Kickoffs section 

message: "Note: it is also a foul for an offensive player to touch an opponent's face mask, including when the runner stiff-arms a defensive player."
Can anyone confirm that to be true? I was under the impression that grabbing the face mask is not a foul for an offensive ball carrier.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.72.193 (talk) 06:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The NCAA says that no player may grasp the face mask, but the open hand may be used on the mask (9-1-2-s). Since a properly executed stiff-arm is conducted with the open hand, this will not be a foul. Federation is worded similarly (helmet contact was a point of emphasis this year, and the situation was discussed in our training clinics). NFL may be more liberal, but I don't have the book handy. —C.Fred (talk) 12:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Offensive facemask? 

message: As mentioned, there is a little known rule that a free-kick is allowed after a fair catch, or awarded fair-catch.  A section about this, including that the free-kick, if it goes through the uprights, scores.  I think a couple of years ago this occurred in an NFL game (See http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8960471).
Also, the free-kick option may be retained if a penalty is accepted on a play from scrimmage after a free-kick.  For example, A fair catches at the A40.  A elects to snap.  On the play, B commit pass interference and A accepts.  A still retains the free-kick option.--71.112.153.111 00:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Free Kick after Fair Catch 

message: Did anyone ever realize that there are a large number of fouls that are listed under offensive or defensive fouls that can be committed by either team?  Such as: Encroachment, all of the illegal blocking fouls, holding, tripping, spearing, forward pass interference...I am sure I missed a few also.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smokedadro (talk • contribs) 04:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an arbirtrary break-out. I didn't see much gained by the article to change it, though it is handy with, say, the differential enforcement for pass interference. —C.Fred (talk) 01:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't say that encroachment can be an offensive foul.  It's when a defensive player crosses the neutral zone and makes contact with an offensive player or continues unabated to the quarterback.  There is no offensive equivalent.  Offsides, yes, neutral zone infractions, yes, but encroachment seems pure defense. (Any "encroaching" offensive player would be called for false start, right?) Jamesfett (talk) 07:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not true. If a wideout lines up in an "offside" position but does not simulate motion at the snap, he hasn't false-started, but he has encroached. —C.Fred (talk) 02:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fouls 

message: I changed a paragraph under coin toss, because that paragraph makes no sense.  No one knows if a teams prefers to receive it or kick it.  Every team is different and therefore, that is a biased statement.--Kmbball45 (talk) 18:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: On the one hand, generally accepted strategy is that choosing to kick places a team at a disadvantage. The problem is, I don't have a citation to back that up, so I can't call it a verifiable fact. I suspect that there's a coaching guide out there somewhere with either a statement about the strategic disadvantage to choosing to kick or statistics about how infrequently the option is chosen. —C.Fred (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coin Toss 

message: OK, I'm quite sure about roughing the kicker after the ball was kicked, but what if the kicker was sacked before he can even get the ball off the foot?  Does that also count as running into or roughing the kicker?TimHowardII (talk) 08:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, that's called a fumble. :) Bkporter12 (talk) 17:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sacking the punter

message: i witnessed a rule being enforced this weekend in the CARDINALS VS. COWBOYS game. I would love for someone to explain this. A quarterback is trying to throw the football for a pass, and at the last moment, "tucks" it back in, understanding He's about to get sacked in the end zone.He's smothered  at the one yard line, fumbles the ball into the end zone, and the opposing team recovers the ball in their end zone. result: touchdown for the defense!!!
never happened. the judges invoked a new rule concerning a "tuck" rule that resulted in the possesing team recieving a first & ten at the ten yard line.
i must be on drugs!!! anybody care to explain this "new rule"????????
04:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  th e "tuck" rule 

message: Could a knowledgeable editor please add to both the "offside" and "encroachment" sections an explanation of when exactly each of these penalties would be called?  Tempshill (talk) 18:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Offside vs. Encroachment 

message: The article does not make it clear, and it should make it clear, who has possession of the ball at the end of each quarter, and where the ball starts out at the beginning of each quarter. —Lowellian (reply) 21:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarters, whoever ended with the ball keeps it under the same circumstances they had it at the end of the last quarter.  The game starts and the 3rd quarter begin with kickoffs.  Bkporter12 (talk) 18:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually they don't keep the ball under the same circumstance - there is one change. At the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters, the teams "Switch sides" meaning that if Team A was defending the North Endzone and trying to score in the South Endzone, at the end of the quarter they will switch, and begin defending the South Endzone. This is a very relevant issue in stadiums that are outdoors, where wind is a factor in the game.173.62.181.145 (talk) 16:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: True. However, the same team retains possession at the same relative field position. If it was second and 7 for Team A on their own 23 yard line at the end of the first quarter, the ball will be moved to the other 23 and the chains will be flipped around. It will still be Team A's ball, second and 7 on their own 23; they'll just be going the other direction on the field. —C.Fred (talk) 18:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Possession of ball at end of each quarter

message: I added stuff here, feel free to remove if it doesn't make sense...but this happened in tonight's (1/4/2009) Eagles v. Vikings game and I thought i deserved some merit in Wikipedia.  Thanks!  --Scottymoze (talk) 23:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Downed Player: Sack

message: Is the number of yards that can be gained in one 'down' (or four downs) unlimited, or can it be no more than ten yards? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drstk (talk • contribs) 22:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's unlimited. The ten yards is what "resets" the next down back to first down. —C.Fred (talk) 22:50, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, technically it's limited to 100 (or 99 yards depending on record keeping rules) because that's the limit of the field. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's unlimited.  It's possible that a player runs for 99 yards, then fumbles, has an opposing player pick it up and run the other way for 99 yards, who then fumbles, and has a player from the original team pick it up and run for 99 yards.  Repeat as many times as you'd like.  The maximum net gain on a play is limited to 99 yards, but the number of yards a team can gain on a single play is unlimited.  Bkporter12 (talk) 18:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah well I think there is a limit, because people do not live forever. It is a ridiculous scenario anyways, but even if you want to use the argument that its "possible" that the teams will run to the goaline and fumble over and over for an eternity, then many other issues arise. Such as the scheduling for next weeks game, the off-season, and of course the fact that humans are mortal, and that during a game, a team would not be allowed to add players to the roster, so eventually all the active players would die, and the game would end. So there is a limit. What is the limit? 99 yards. (or 100 depending on the rules of the league).173.62.181.145 (talk) 17:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Euro-question 

message: I checked the ESPN, USA Today, and Washington Post summaries for Sunday's Bengals–Redskins game. All of them refer to the result as a "27–27 tie"; none of them use the phrase "27–all". In keeping with WP:ENGVAR, then, should this article not maintain American usage and report the score as 27–27? —C.Fred (talk) 22:37, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scores in a tie game 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I went to this page to find the weight of a football and...nothing! Aren't the weight, size, and shape of a US football prescribed by rules? And these rules vary for professional and collegiate play, both known as "American Football", true? Martindo (talk) 09:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the required equipment—the ball, helmets, pads, etc.—is covered in this article. Ball (gridiron football) has the specifications for an NFL ball, but not for NCAA or Federation (high school) balls. —C.Fred (talk) 16:22, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Ball Itself