Talk:Hillsborough disaster

message: Under the heading "Taylor inquiry: Behaviour of fans", it states "Lord Taylor concluded that the behaviour of Liverpool fans, including accusations of drunkenness, were secondary factors, and said that most fans were: 'not drunk, nor even the worse for drink'. He concluded that this formed an exacerbating factor but that police, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the element of drunkenness in the crowd.  The report dismissed the theory, put forward by South Yorkshire Police, that fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forged tickets were contributing factors."
This is the only separate heading in the article which explicitly purports to address the actual behavior of fans, but that it does not do; it only says that they were not drunk, and that forged tickets were not an issue. It says nothing about the behavior of the fans (it is quite possible to misbehave while sober, and while using legitimate tickets). My concern is that that the summation as presented will give undue weight to one report's findings (and given how unreliable assertions were shown to be in parts of all of the reports, that is problematic). For example, under the heading "Before the disaster: Venue" it states "At the time of the disaster, most English football stadiums had high steel fencing between the spectators and the playing field in response to pitch invasions. Hooliganism had affected the sport for some years, and was particularly virulent in England. From 1974, when these security standards were put in place, crushes occurred in several English stadiums." And under the heading "Disaster: Build up" it states "Opposing supporters were segregated, as is common at domestic matches in England...Although Liverpool had more supporters, Nottingham Forest was allocated the larger area, to avoid the approach routes of rival fans crossing." These certainly give a vivid impression that the misbehavior of fans was both well-established and common, and that it actually required structural differences in the way attendees were accommodated (seemingly unique among all spectator sports). So characterizing the "behaviour of fans" as somehow being benign due to the absence of drunkenness or forged tickets, is nonsensical. Either the heading should more accurately reflect the content, or the content should actually address the claim made in the heading. Bricology (talk) 07:26, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The section you refer to is specifically about the Taylor Report so it summarises the findings of that report. We also include the Stuart-Smith scrutiny and the report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel, summarising what came out of those two as well. It sounds as if you are proposing we introduce a new section analysing the behaviour of the fans in general. Do you really think that would be fair and appropriate in this article? With respect, I suggest that that's a rabbit hole we do not want to go down! Considering there's a separate Taylor Report article that goes into more detail about his findings, we should probably cut this section down anyway, including the removal of the contentious subsection that you refer to (which does seem to stick out like a sore thumb). Rodney Baggins (talk) 09:23, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly agree that the section does not need expanding, in fact the Behaviour section is very succinct about Taylor's main findings. I think Bricology is implying that we should go 'fishing' for behavioural factors that Taylor didn't specifically refute. That isn't how we work. Pincrete (talk) 12:16, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Behaviour of fans" inaccuracy and undue weight 

message: Fans in the stadium were literally crushed to death. EpicBlockClutch (talk) 17:29, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2022 

message: Re this edit: the sourcing does not say this, nor did the coroner's inquests. ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:24, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  January 2024