Talk:Historical names of Transylvania

message: *Later, instead of the Latin name, the Hungarian Erdőelve (area beyond the forest), which means the same as the Latin, was popularly used. - does anyone has more info on this "Erdőelve means area beyond the forest "  ? . in hungarian Erdő ellőt means "before the forest", and Erdő tul means "after/beyond the forest" ... i did a google search for "Hungarian Erdőelve" and this exact sentence Later, instead of the Latin name, the Hungarian Erdőelve (area beyond the forest), which means the same as the Latin, was popularly used. appears in 5-6 results, clearly a copy of this wikiarticle. the pages in hungarian that i read so far do not offer a clue about what Erdőelve comes from, only that it is similar to "Erdely", but what if the form Erdőelve is a adaptation into hungarian from romanian "Ardeal" ? 
-when did the form Erdőelve occured first in hugarian, is it possible to trace this ?
* No, its not possible to trace when it first occured in spoken Hungarian. The earliest written source (according to Hungarian linguists) is the Gesta Hungarorum.Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: you are talking about hungarian name Havas Alföld (havas = snowy, alfold = plain) for Wallachia. pls provide evidence for a Havas Elve meaning "beyond the snowy mountains). i couldnt find a modern hungarian word elve meaning "beyond/trans/across", and no hungarian word havas meaning "snowy mountain"Criztu 14:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Criztu, "havas" is a common word in Hungarian. Parts of Carpathians are for example named "Fogarasi-havasok" (i.e. The snowy mountains of Fogaras), "Gyergyói-havasok", etc. As for elve, that's a word by now extinct, but it was often used in the past in the sense 'over, beyond'. Some examples from the Codex of Munich (Tatros): „És jutának Judeának vidékébe Jordán elvé” (="And they got to Judea, beyond the Jordan"), „És mikor juttak volna ő tanejtványi tenger elve” (="and when his disciples got beyond the sea"), "Kimene Czedronnak áradatja elvé" (="went to beyond the flood of the Czedron"). You can check the references in A magyar nyelv szótára, edited by Czuczor Gergely and Fogarasi János. I hope I could help. Zigomer trubahin (talk) 05:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

message: hi there all, since i ain't too able to track sources evidentiating the link between Ardeal and Gelu, i think it would worth sharing to you all my "research", who knows, maybe you'll find it useful in your own "research" on this Ardeal/Erdely ethymology:
*Alba Iulia ("White Iulia") in romanian, Gyula Feher Var ("Gyula White City") in hungarian, both designate the same city.
*Gelu was suposed by the author of Gesta Hungarorum to have been a vlach that ruled in what was Erdeuelu ... though i don't know how Anonymous originaly wrote the names of Gelu and Erdeuelu.
*Julius was a roman name
*Gelones were an ancient tribe living in Transylvania.
*Iuliu (m.) / Iulia (f.) are the romanian forms of latin Julius
*Gelu (m.) is another romanian name today.
*Giulio (m.) / Giulia (f.) are the italian forms of latin Julius.
while there were these dacian Apulia(?) and roman Apulum that can be at the origin of Alba Iulia/ Gyula Feher Var
*Arderich - the Gepid king seems to have meant simply Erde Rich, probably meaning "King of the Land".
and there were these IE roots arde for "forest" and erde for "earth"
but what about these Latin arduus, ardua, arduum - steep; high; difficult [arduum, ardui, n. - steep place] ... or Irish àirde - height, Irish áirde, Early Irish arde; See àrd. ?
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take a look at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu  
*arduus , a, um, adj. [akin to ARDÔ, arsô = to water, to cherish; aldainô = to make grow; aldêeis = growing; alo, altus, q. v.; 1. ad-oleo, ad-olesco; related to arbor, arbutus as eruthros, Germ. roth, Engl. red, is related to ruber; Ardea was perh. so called from its lofty situation; cf. Arduenna] 
I. high, elevated, lofty, steep (syn.: altus, celsus, sublimis). 
I. Lit.: Pergama ardua, Enn. ap. Macr. S. 6, 2: aether, Ov. M. 1, 151 : sidera, id. ib. 1, 730 : cedrus, id. Am. 1, 14, 12 : cervix equi, Hor. S. 1, 2, 89 : et campo sese arduus infert (Turnus), Verg. A. 9, 53 .--Also in prose in Gell.: supercilia, i. e. proudly elevated, Gell. 4, 1, 1 : confragosus atque arduus clivis, steep, Varr. R. R. 1, 18, 4 : ascensus, Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 23 : arduus ac difficilis ascensus, Liv. 25, 13 : ardua et aspera et confragosa via, id. 44 . 3: via alta atque ardua, Enn. ap. Cic. Tusc. 1, 16, 37: mons, Ov. M. 1, 316 : Tmolus, id. ib. 11, 150 al.--Hence, subst.: arduum , i, n., a steep place, a steep: Ardua dum metuunt, amittunt vera viaï, Lucr. 1, 659 : in ardua montis Ite, Ov. M. 8, 692 : ardua terrarum, Verg. A. 5, 695 : per arduum scandere, Hor. C. 2, 19, 21 : in arduo, Tac. A. 2, 47 : in arduis ponet nidum suum, Vulg. Job, 39, 27 : ardua Alpium, Tac. H. 4, 70 : castellorum, id. A. 11, 9 : ingressi sunt ardua, Vulg. Jer. 4, 29 . --
II. Trop.
 
A. That is difficult to reach or attain, difficult, laborious, hard, arduous: magnum opus omnino et arduum conamur, Cic. Or. 10, 33 : rerum arduarum ac difficilium perpessio, id. Inv. 2, 54 ; so id. Leg. 1, 13: id arduum factu erat, Liv. 8, 16 ; Tac. A. 4, 4: victoria, Ov. M. 14, 453 : virtus, Hor. C. 3, 24, 44 : nil mortalibus arduum est, id. ib. 1, 3, 37 .--Subst.: nec fuit in arduo societas, Tac. A. 12, 15 .--
B. Troublesome, unpleasant: in primis arduum videtur res gestas scribere, Sall. C. 3, 2 , upon which Gellius remarks: Arduum Sallustius non pro difficili tantum, sed pro eo quoque ponit, quod Graeci chalepon appellant: quod est cum difficile tum molestum quoque et incommodum et intractabile, Gell. 4, 15 : quam arduum onus, Tac. A. 1, 11 .--
C. Of fortune, difficult, adverse, inauspicious: aequam memento rebus in arduis Servare mentem, in adversity, Hor. C. 2, 3, 1 .!*? Comp. arduior: iter longius arduiusque erat, Cato ap. Prisc. p. 600 P.--Sup. arduissimus: asperrimo atque arduissimo aditu, Cato ap. Prisc. p. 600 P.; cf.: assiduus, egregius, industrius, perpetuus, and Rudd. I. p. 180, n. 58.--Adv. not used.
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i think there are bits of info out there that can lead to an Erde Iuliu (Land of Iuliu) or Erde Gelu (Land of Gelu), but it's beyond my present capacity :0| ... Criztu 23:16, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, this Gesta Hungarorum was written by a chronicler at the court of the Kings of Hungary. Where did he learn to write ? can we assume he learnt in a german environment, given the german influences in this region ? say, Teutonic Order, vecinity with Frankish and German empires, the spread of Catholicism through german bishops in this Kingdom of Hungary -- Criztu 12:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erde Gelu 

message: I have removed the following sentence from the article, because some of the points are incorrect, and the argument is not very well supported. It seems purely speculative to me.
:However, the ending "-eal" in Romanian suggests that it was not borrowed in Romanian from Hungarian, because intervowel "l" is eluded (such as in words like Udvarhely → Odorhei - in Hungarian, the group of letters "ly" is pronounced as "y", so the Hungarian name Mihaly is pronounced much like the Romanian name Mihai), so if this were indeed true, the Romanian name ought to be "Ardei".
1) there is no intervowel "l" in udvarhely and "ly" is not a group of letters. Whoever wrote this doesn't know much about Hungarian, because "ly" is a single letter. 
2) I can offer two examples which contradicts the above. The word for buffalo is bivol in Romanian and bivaly in Hungarian. They seem to be related (it doesn't matter which came from which), but here the Hungarian letter 'ly' is equivalent to the Romanian letter 'l'. Another example is the Hungarian word gulyás. In this case the lettler 'ly' has been replaced with an 'l' in other languages (e.g. goulash in English). I just offer my examples to show that you can't support a linguistical argument in this way. 
3) the pronunciation of the letter "ly" in Hungarian has changed. I'll try to find out when and how, but I think it is only relatively recently that is had been pronounced similarly to "y". Scott Moore 11:35, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungarian letter 'ly' 

message: One of the most relevant IE roots to the Ardeal/Erdely question is 
* Ered-, "high, steep". The Latin word Arduus (steep, towering, lofty; in altered sense, it meant 'difficult', 'difficult to reach') is known to be from this root. Perhaps Romanian Ardeal is from this root, from Dacian or Celtic.  
*Er-. This meant 'earth, ground'. Notably found in Germanic. Cf. Middle Dutch 'eerde' (earth), Old English 'eorthe', from which comes English 'earth'. This root is unlikely, because it is not specific enough to higher elevations.
I'm not sure if the forest names Arden and Ardennes have been traced to a root. This may indicate either a West Indo-European semi-root, or these forest names may be from pre-IE populations. The Celtic element is present in all three of these instances: Arden (in Britain); Ardennes (in Belgium); Ardeal (where Celtic tribes had settled). There may be more examples. Alexander 007 12:06, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indo-European Roots that are Relevant 

message: Criztu, 007
The article totally lacked the Hungarian view on the etymology of the various words, so I have added it. The existing hypotheses in the article about the etymology of Ardeal/Erdély I have put in a section entitled 'Romanian View' (you haven't explained where these hypotheses came from, so I can only assume from Romanian linguists/historians). Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I may as well be more specific on my references. The text on the etymology of Erdély is taken from the entry for Erdõ in 'A magyar nyelvtőrténeti-etimológiai szotára', Akadémiai Kiadó, 1984 (second edition) as well Pál Engel's 'The Realm of Saint Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary'. Engel also stated that the Latin form Transylvania is derived from the Hungarian, but I'm not sure whether this firm view is held more generally among specialists in Hungary. The hypothesis that the Romanian form is derived from the Hungarian is mentioned in Hungarian Wikipedia, but I can't otherwise confirm that there is a consensus on this in Hungary. Scott Moore 16:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to article 

message: Can anyone provide references for the derivation of Siebenbürgen from the "seven German cities founded or settled by the German Saxons in Transylvania"? I've found a number of other hypotheses for the etymology, so it is by no means clear that there is a consensus. For example:
*Klaus Popa: "Siebenbuergen" means explicitly "Seven Towns" or "Seven Castles". Still this etimology is too explicit to be true. It seems rather to originate in the dialectical tradition of the first, mainly Low German, Flemish and Dutch settlers, in whose homelands there are hilly regions called "Zevenbergen" (in southern Holland) and "Sevenbergen" (east of the town of Hameln on the river Weser, Germany). 
*Laszlo Kontler: Transylvania and the Maros valley...seems to have been the first portion of land within the Carpathians where Mahyars gained a foothold, each of their seven chieftains having erected, according to legend, an earthen 'castle' (hence the German name of the province).
*The text I've already added comes from Pal Engel who describes the hypothesis as "plausible" but doesn't give a source for it
Scott Moore 18:14, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology of Siebenbürgen 

message: The current argument presented under the heading "Romanian View" is incorrect, because "Udvarhely" ends in "-ely", while "Erdély" ends in "-ély", "e" and "é" being pronounced quite differently (somewhat like French "ai" and "é"). I don't want to remove it, since there might be a similar, and accurate, argument I don't know of; however, it shouldn't remain as it is now. 
Also, FYI, the Hungarian "ly" was in old times pronounced similarly to "l" (more or less like present Russian "ль"), but today, in most dialects, it is exactly the same sound as "j". Unfortunately, I'm not a linguist, or I'd present you with the exact IPA notation or whatever :)
KissL 09:25, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erdély / Ardeal 

message: * Some Romanian authors states that the only word in which ély means over (as Hungarian etymologists suggest) is this one. There are several Hungarian words borrowed from Romanian that ends in ély but does not mean over ... (i.e. hun. borbély > rom. bărbier, eng. barber cannot be translated as over the beard)Ion Marţian, Ardealul. Ist., p 10P.L. Tonciulescu, Ardealul, pământ şi cuvânt românesc, Bucarest, 2002, p 110.
This is not a criticism in fact, it goes together with the Erdély => Ardeal transformation with no problem.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faller (talk • contribs) 16:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Romanian Criticism

message: Because it deals with the etymology of Romanian Ardeal and Hungarian Erdely as well, not to mention the German name. Alexander 007 07:18, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of article not the best choice

message: * Argeal, from river Argeş (Ardeiscus). "-eal" is a typical Romanian ending.
pls provide expert study, something, otherwise is original research Criztu 20:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ardeal from Arges 

message: I wonder about the credibility and the very logic of some comments on this page. Some users obviously cannot distinguish between making their own guesses (which rely on spurious and protochronist arguments) and presenting a creditable, valid, and non-partisan source. Dahn 20:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment

message: I intent on editing "The first Hungarian form recorded was Erdeuelu (12th century, in the Gesta Hungarorum". I think Gesta Hungarorum is a latin document, so i will ask for a source demonstrating Erdeuelu was a hungarian toponym. Criztu 15:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is just funny. Dahn 15:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Criztu, you are being obtuse. You know very well that GH was written in Latin but that it contains numerous non-Latin names. The sources for the etymology of erdeuelu are given above on this very talk page. For your benefit I've copied down here what I wrote last year. If you were really interested in sources, then during the past year you would have acquired or accessed a copy of a Hungarian etymological dictionary or, indeed, Pal Engel's book (which is now available in paperback). Of course, it could be that you are just asking for sources (again) to be obstructive. Or to take advantage of my apparent absence from Wikipedia. Scott Moore 10:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: **Erdõ-elve = beyond the forest. Well, I think no one would doubt that erdõ = forest (as it is still used in modern Hungarian). According to Hungarian etymological dictionaries, erdõ is derived from ered (meaning "to originate from", and still used in modern Hungarian but with a much wider set of meanings). Regarding the elve suffix, this is a modern form of (according to some sources) elü. Another example is Havas-elve (= beyond the snowy [mountains],transalpinus), which was the medieval Hungarian for Wallachia. Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: **Yes, I can provide numerous books expressing this hypothesis as it supported by many Hungarian historians and linguists (I haven't yet found dissenting views among Hungarian experts, but some may exist). From the linguistic side, I suggest refering to any etymological dictionary of Hungarian. From the historical side, I suggest Pal Engel's "Realm of Saint Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary" as it is recent and was published (only) in English. Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungarian Erdeuelu  

message: Labeling the ... exotic ethimological theories of the words ardeal, erdely etc as "Romanian point of view" is not only inaccurate but also insulting. To my knoledge no reputed Romanian scholar (even unde Ceasescu's regime) endorsed such a theory. Even the Romanian Explicative Dictionaries I remember adhered to the so called "Hungarian point of view". Plinul cel tanar 12:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could not agree more. Listing in that way is absurd, and the theories added in recent edits are fringe to say the least. I was waiting for someone to take an interest in this. Dahn 12:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanian point of view ? 

message: Isn't there a proposal at least at the folk etymology level of Ardeal coming from Romanian deal? --84.20.17.84 09:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deal 

message: The word "borbély" is a relatively fresh international loanword in Hungarian, so it is not comparable to the word Erdély. I think it should be replaced with a better example. Faller (talk) 10:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Tonciulescu is a well known source of protochronism and pseudo-scientifice. He does not a represent "the Romanian" view and not even "a Romanian" view, scholarly speaking. The other source, a rather obscure author of the 20s doesn't carry much weight either. The whole paragraph should be deleted or rephrased to indicate it's a fringe theory. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 10:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

text: I think if you are sure in these things you should remove the inaccurate paragraphs or reword them to make it evident that they are protochronism. Maybe you should rename the section to be more descriptive. I am not as expert in the Romanian authors as I dare it. Faller (talk) 10:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual thing: "borbély" as example 

message: Hello Aristeus01! I ask you to provide a citation to the paragraph I just tagged with , as you were the one who wrote that. Thanks. Gyalu22 (talk) 14:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Added cited source with page. The entire paragraph is longer and, obviously, in Romanian. A simple google translate from the part of the reader should be enough to sustain the editing. Aristeus01 (talk) 15:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed