Talk:Capoeira/Definitions

message: I think that it is pertinent to talk about the evolution of breakdancing, before one says that capeora was influenced by breakdancing. Breakdancing evoved out of New York in the late 70's early 80's. Not much debate have I heard on that point. But were did breakdancing come from? Was it spontaneous combustion? New York is a culturally diverse city, with strong emphasis on the arts, especially theater and dance. I think it is obvious that breakdancers were influeced by gymnastics. Capoeira too was obviuosly a major influence. The "up-rock" that breakdancers do is a very similar pattern to the ginga, (capoeira footwork). Moreover, many of tyhe moves from a head spin to a hand spin to doing a "baby", all have been done incapoeira for quite sometime. Another lesser known influence on breaking is the mimes that frequent Central Park. When you see breakdancers act like they are a robot, or are being electrocuted, or doing a wave or something, these are techniques adapted from mimes. Mimes frequently do such antics, including being traped in a box,  mimicking people, etc. The point is body control and coordiation. I'm not saying breakers took classes on how to be a mime, but I am saying that they were heavily influenced by mimes, and capoeiristas and gymnasts. Finally, on a personal note, I have been training capoeira for eight years, and my closest friends have been doing it for ten+ years. None of us have even half considered copying breakers' moves. they simply don't think about application, how to use it in conjuction with another person. I have however, witnessed breakers AND other martal artists blatantly copy capoeira techniques. 
Boa Gente
Breakdancing - Removed the part about Capoeira being influenced by breakdancing because Capoeira is a self-sustaining entity that is based in tradition and culture.  As it has gone to other countries each group maintains the cultural brazilian influence and is constantly interacting with other Capoeira groups when there are roda's, batizado's and other miscellaneous events.  If Capoeira were to be influenced by breakdancing the entire movement from Brazil to the U.S. would have to completely embrace the concept and that is not happening. -Grundle
:Clearly capoeira is self sustaining, but one can't deny that it has evolved in the last forty or fifty years. If you watch old videos of capoeira, you see very little of the flashy moves and tricks of today, especially moves such as corta capim (spinning one leg underneath you while crouching). Many of the older mestres also disapprove of the stunts that have emerged. Capoeira is very adaptable to change — note how Bimba changed the traditional form of capoeira into Capoeira Regional. Clearly modern capoeira, especially Regional, has the potential to be influenced both by Asian martial arts and by breakdancing. — Asbestos | Talk 13:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Specifically referencing your example of corta capim, even though it's know as a breakdancing movement in the US, it's actually an old capoeira movement, practiced by old mestres in Bahia. I think this shows the problem with assuming the origins of movements. — spyrral | Talk 13:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I won't dispute the fact that capoeira is constantly evolving.  I think that it is very possible that many movements have been taken from Asian martial arts, but I would be hesitant to say that Capoeira has been significantly influenced by breakdance.  I also agree with you that the game is not the same today as it was 50 years ago.  I think we need to take a look at where these changes are coming from.  The large majority come from Mestres who have started their own groups and have infused their own philosophy and outlook on Capoeira into their own group.  The most signifcant example I can give you is Mestre Suassuna's group Cordao de Ouro.  In this group Suassuna introduced a new "game" called Miudinho where the capoeirstas play closer together and yet do both regional and angola movements.  As far as style goes, it looks very similar to breakdancing but it actually came out of Brazil and is completely unique from breakdance since Suassuna was developing and using it when breakdance was still in its infancy.  Check out  for an example. — Grundle 20:55, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I won't push the point to have it mentioned in the introduction. However, I think a line or two somewhere that capoeira is constantly evolving, and that it can be influenced by external sources such as Asian martial arts, would be in order in some other section. I'll add it in some time unless someone else want to. — Asbestos | Talk 21:30, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breakdancing 

message: Isn't Capoeria an effective fighting technique aswell?  The article focuses too much on calling it an art-form and sport.
:Capoeira is used very little as fighting technique — it's use is almost entirely that spoken of in the article. This is as true today as it was a hundred years ago: most of the fight-dances that capoeira is thought to have evolved from used very little contact. In Brazil, if you want to learn a contact sport, you most commonly learn Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or an Asian martial art. — Asbestos | Talk 22:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is suprising you would say that Capoeira isn't a contact art.  The most commonly practiced martial arts in Brazil are Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Vale-Tudo, and Capoeira.  Many street rodas have degenerated into  simple brawls resulting in bodily injury.  If you want to make a distinction on whether Capoeira is useful as a fighting art you need to determine its present value in certain locations as well as which capoeira group it comes from.  Many groups focus on its aesthetic value, but some focus on it as a violent martial art.  Several groups that focus more on the martial aspect (that I can think of) are Grupo Axe and Grupo Capoeira Forca Rara.  In the United States it is expressed more as an artform, but in Brazil it is still seen as an effective form of fighting.  There are some capoeiristas who will go from studio to studio just to fight with a rival Jiu Jitsu or Capoeira school.  If you don't think Capoeira is a contact sport I would advise attenting several street rodas in Brazil, because I firmly believe it would give you a new perspective.  As for 100 years ago it was even more brutal than today.  Many of the street thugs who practiced capoeira often put straight edge razors between their toes to be even more lethal.  I think that some confusion on this point occurs because of the generally accepted ethics for fighting in a roda.  Most capoeiristas will not complete a  move that will cause bodily injury, but rather show the move to the opponent they are playing.  To actually cause harm is looked upon as rude.  Sometimes this rule is overlooked in batizados and in this case is done by a high ranking player against a less experienced person.  In this case the experienced player should know enough to not injure the other person, but rather he will be revealing his mastery of capoeira to the other person. — Grundle | Talk 16:23, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Combat?