Talk:Patriot Guard Riders

message: Why is there no mention of the Phelps clan here?  From what I can tell, the entire purpose of the Patriot Guard is to support families during funerals which are being protested by the Westboro Baptist Church(the godhatesfags people).  Do they assist families being protested by any other groups?  I'm not aware of any other groups which protest funerals. 
And, having considered this a bit further, it seems to me that, unlike what it says in the current article, the patriot guard are not disrupting "protests against the 2003 iraq war".  The godhatesfags people are not protesting against the war, they are basically protesting against american society in general.  I intend to change this article to reflect my understanding that the protests the patriot guard are disrupting are all by the godhatesfags group, unless someone tells me I'm wrong in this. --Xyzzyplugh 18:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Fred Phelps]]/[[Westboro Baptist Church]] Reference?

message: There appear to be a series of back & forth reverts here between POV/NPOV (or at least, if the more recent revisions about the riders being an anti-Christian group with pending investigations into violent behavio are true, they lack citations)
No, they're very much libelous and defamatory statements made by either Phelps sympathizers or very far left-wing radicals. 130.184.184.77 17:23, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit war?

message: Hi. While reading a recent issue (May 8th) of Time (magazine), I noticed a good article about the Guard by David van Biema. I've edited our article to include a reference for the Time article, and made some other changes.
*"They attend every single U.S. Military funeral for which the family gives permission", not just casualties of the "War on Terror".
*They started in August 2005.
*The Guard "today claims 28,000 bikers and supporters".
*Deleted external link to http://www.ksat.com/news/9259506/detail.html?rss=ant&psp=news with text "possibly the Patriot Guard", because it was an unsubstantiated slur.
The text in double quotes is from the Time article. Time also says "in a culture in which a 24-hour news cycle and habitual political spin can make the most earnest public gesture seem tired or canned, they appear to be the real thing: a spontaneous mass movement." Anyone want to put this into the article?
(Incidentally, Time describes Fred Phelps as "an attention-crazed fanatic", "a kind of paleo-fundamentalist, gay-baiting performance artist" who took Pat Robertson's "already-troubling line" that 9/11 etc are God punishing America and "spun it past the boundary of the outrageous".)
I also copied the current mission statement from the Guard's website, complete with underlining.
Cheers, CWC(talk) 12:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes made 27-May-2006 

message: This memorial day, I was fortunate enough to participate in a PGR mission in rural Western Maryland for a fallen Army Officer.  The PGR was professional, nonconfrontational to a fault, and dignified.  I found it to be an elegant solution to the sometimes thorny and frustrating matter of unpopular speech.  Phelps is clearly allowed to speak his mind (given a landowner who will let him use their space), and at the same time a family needs this at a funeral like they need a hole in their head.  Nobody was squeltched, nobody got hurt, and a family was spared insane irrelevant vitriol.   As a veteran, a motorcyclist, and a first amendment absolutist, I was honored to be part of this, and I will gladly ride with them whenever they are within my range.
This interesting comment was the first contribution of user 70.106.56.8 (talk • contribs). —CWC(talk) 12:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First person thoughts on a PGR event two days ago. 

message: Motorcycle club category?  They are not a motorcycle club.  They are motorcycle related for sure, but motorcycles are not required, even many leaders don't ride.  "Motorcycle Club" has a particular meaning, and Patriot Guards is not it.  There is no probabtion.  Most MCs require you to ride, and ride a HD. There are no colors.  There is no territorial claim.
I suggest "Motorcyclists Organizations" vice MC.    129.53.219.20 00:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Motorcycle Club?

message: Am I supposed to just know what a hawk or a dove are?  I mean beyond the usual understanding that they are both avians.  It might be helpful if this could be explained to those of us that might not understand what is meant by being a 'hawk' or a 'dove.' Caladil 16:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hawk = pro-war, dove = anti-war. --67.180.56.14 06:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added links so that anybody else that doesn't know what hawk/dove mean in this context can click and find out. =) 152.23.196.162 02:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Umm, I'm confused. 

message: Is it true that the Patriot Guards are "whites only" ??? (heard that couple of times)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.214.213 (talk) 10:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not true. Cheers, CWC 08:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whites only ? 

message: Dragonwagon 12:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Membership 

message: Why is the Patriot Guard page under the purview of WikiProject Christianity?  As I understand it, it's an inclusive organization that welcomes everyone, regardless of age, gender, national origin, vet status, and religion.  —Micahbrwn (talk) 22:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, it's been more than a couple days, and there's been no feedback as to why this page warranted an inclusion into WP:Christianity.  Hence, I'll be bold and remove it.—Micahbrwn (talk) 04:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The project banner was added by User:John Carter, so, maybe asking him why it was included might help.--Vidkun (talk) 16:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it's included in the :Category:Westboro Baptist Church, an explicitly Christian organization. Whether it should be or not is another matter, and not one I am best equipped to answer. However, if the ties to that Church are relatively tight, then the banner is probably relevant. This is not to say that others might not be as well, but just that that one banner would be if the categorization is particularly relevant. If it isn't, you might want to remove the article from that category. John Carter (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But the Patriot Guard aren't affiliated with Westboro Baptist Church.  This organization was founded in response to the hateful protests that WBC have staged (or attempted to stage) at funerals.  Indeed, the Patriot Guard have made appearances at funerals that weren't even Christian to begin with, intending to shield the mourners from WBC.  While I agree that Patriot Guard should be in the Westboro Baptist Church category, I disagree with the contention that simply because the two are linked in some way means that a Wikiproject should be involved with every single article pertaining to that topic.  That's just my opinion, though.  YMMV.  —Micahbrwn (talk) 21:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No disagreement. However, in general, when articles are placed in categories, it's because there's a strong connection. One of the primary reasons I place any banners anywhere is to, eventually, ensure that all the articles get known to relevant projects and assessed. If this article isn't that relevant to that project, no objections to removal of the banner. But, in the event that there ever arise questions regarding the content where you'd want a number of outside voices to come in, it might be in your own best interests to find some project you do deem relevant, so that you can have a more focused point of contact if difficulties ever do arise. John Carter (talk) 13:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a PGR member myself, I can assure you that we are not affiliated with the WBC in any way.  However, it is true that our original mission was to provide some sort of barrier for grieving families in the face of WBC protests at military funerals.  As the WBC is included in the Christianity category, we are just as appropriate to be included, even though - as someone has pointed out - we are open to members of any and all religions, races, creeds, and nationalities.  Respectfully, --InDeBiz1 (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP: Christianity? 

message: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMyMBBzsDgA  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alderete74 (talk • contribs) 16:01, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ballad of the Patriot Guard 

message: Shouldn't this page make at least some reference to the funeral of Matthew Shepherd, since the tactics the Patriot Guard employ are essentially those first put into action against WBC by Romaine Patterson and the Angel Action protesters?--70.113.9.253 (talk) 14:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it might be OK to add a See also section listing Romaine Patterson, although I'd prefer if a secondary source were the one to draw the connection. You want to avoid a Wikipedia:Don't build the Frankenstein scenario, where you're making connections between A and B where you are out ahead of where the sources are leading you. --Dbratland (talk) 07:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matthew Shepherd 

message: I am reading the comment about WP: DUCK requires that they be called a motorcycle club. The PGR is not about motorcycles. It is about honoring a service member, LEO, Firefighter that has lost his/her life in the line of duty, or a veteran that has recently passed away. Please explain to me where the PGR is about motorcycles. I myself do not ride; I drive a car with 4 wheels. So does that mean that I and other members that drive cars are a car club. According to your definition we are. A motorcycle club is an organization that is charted and recognized by the Confederation of Clubs. (Rfor2005 (talk) 22:56, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: For one thing, the PGR mission statement says, "We have one thing in common besides motorcycles..." That says they have two things in common. One of those things is motorcycles. The other is "unwavering respect for those who risk their very lives..." etc. So right there in the mission statement it tell us that they are about motorcycles. They then say they don't care if you ride, which is fine, but still, motorcycles are one of the two things they have in common. Plus the name: Patriot Guard Riders. Where did the word "riders" come from? Why is it there? If they have no connection to motorcycles, why aren't they called Patriot Guard Drivers? Or just Patriot Guard?<P>Much more important than that is what independent media say, because Wikipedia is nothing more than a reflection of what is out there in independent media, and those sources, as cited, call PGR a motorcycle club. Nobody said anything about all members having to be motorcyclists; you made that up. As far as the Confederation of Clubs, the problem there is that independent news, books, and other media sources don't care what the Confederation of Clubs thinks. They are a fringe group which fails to meet Wikipedia's standards for reliability as a source.<P>Please don't be offended if your comments are ignored; this discussion has been very repetitive and comments that repeat old arguments will probably be ignored.<P>If you have a new issue to raise, please start a new section on this talk page. --Dbratland (talk) 23:23, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: February 2011

message: I respectfully request additional information in External links.  Suggest Official website be changed to Official website of the Patriot Guard Riders (PGR).  I am a Copy-Editor and think it looks incomplete because it doesn't indicate whose official website.  Also suggest (PGR) be added to the Title because it is part of the Patriot Guard Riders name.  I will not Be Bold and make these changes because I am a Patriot Guard Rider (PGR).  I prefer to discuss.   Tiyang 08:26, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: Is it a Conflict of Interest for me, an Editor and Patriot Guard Rider, to rate this article?  Respectfully,   Tiyang (talk) 13:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're a topic matter expert and your opinion is valued, and you're an involved member and have a conflict of interest.  So you should be allowed to note errors, but not praise. ;) The name thing is beyond stupid, but like lots of other Wiki-nesses, is going to be there until doomsday. :( htom (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the response, htom.  I have rated the page objectively (three stars for Complete because there are gaps in the Article).  I made my living as a Copy-Editor, and there are many edits I could make to improve this article.  It should be noted PGR is a Non-Profit organization.  Total membership is 243,964 and climbing.  The Infobox does not include our Canadian and Belgium members, nor is it mentioned anywhere that Canada and the United States work together to honor fallen servicemembers.  PGR's Fallen Warrior Scholarship Fund has helped many young people continue their education.  Young people are our future; hence the Foundation's Mentorship Program.  If I said anything that can be used to improve this article, would someone please incorporate it into the article?  That would be nice.  One more thing:  I am going to post something at the PGR Website about the Rate this page feature.  Very respectfully,   Tiyang (talk) 00:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  QUESTION 

message: PGR IS NOT A MOTORCYCLE CLUB.  Period.  It has no membership.  It has no meetings.  It has no dues.  It has no entry requirements.  It has no exit requirements.  It has no prescribed apparel.  It has no rules.  It is not a club.  It is simply an association.  Calling it a club would be like calling people who see each other on their way to work on the tube a "club", or workers in a company who go out to pick up trash together.  It is simply not a club.
Relying on some published articles that are also in error on this does not make it so.  I belong to many clubs and organizations, none of which operate in the manner of the PGR.  It also doesn't matter what non-US English speakers consider the definition of a club to be, the PGR is based in the US and goes by the American English language.  Should the US insist that MAnchest United be called a Soccer Team because after all, not all English speakers are from outside the US?  That is such a ridiculous argument.  The final argument for this is that the organization itself EMPHASIZES that they are not a club.  Get off your fricken high pompous ass horse and give in you dickheads.
Calling the PGR a club puts them in jeopardy from real clubs who are territorial.  Stop being irresponsible and stop insisting that something is true because you alone want it to be such. The people who KNOW are all telling you that you are wrong.  The PGR is in no way "a club" in the US.
====================================================================================== 72.74.81.57 (talk) 07:28, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you read the rest of this talk page. According to your very narrow US-centric definition of motorcycle club then no, it isn't a club. However, Wikipedia is a global encyclopaedia and in other English-speaking countries the term motorcycle club has a wider meaning, so the term motorcycle club is user here in the global sense. --Biker Biker (talk) 07:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And actually, the four sources cited that call PGR a motorcycle club are from the US. The MC culture isn't really dominant even in its country of origin. Conversely, there are bikers in the UK, German, Australia and all over the world who imitate the US MC culture. Nonetheless, it's a minority definition and reorganizing the whole encyclopedia for one subculture's politically correct rules would be impossible. And, right in the second sentence, it says PGR is "not a chartered motorcycle club". --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the six References for the second sentence in the lede mention "chartered".  Will someone please remove that word from the article (I am a Patriot Guard Rider).  Respectfully,   Tiyang (talk) 08:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, albeit in an untimely fashion.  Since the sources do not use the word "chartered", and it has been challenged, WP:BURDEN applies.  Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 03:01, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, AzureCitizen.  GBU.  Respectfully,   Tiyang (talk) 05:06, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  not a "Club" 

message: I've gone into the IRS database and the PGR has been approved as a 501(c)3 non-profit honor guard. Their own website states they are not a motorcycle club but an honor guard. The problem with the media in the US is that the reporters see motorcycles so it's automatically assumed it's a motorcycle club. I have corrected my own reporters about this in their coverage. I have added references to both PGR's site and to the IRS database.
I hope we can put this to rest and leave the article as-is in it's current content. Jms011 (Jms011) 13:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine that PGR considers itself an honor guard. Wikipedia articles aren't driven by primary sources. See WP:42, WP:V, WP:RS, and all of the archived discussions on this topic. tedder (talk) 15:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

text: No, Wikipedia reflects what other people refer to the group as. As the top of WP:V says: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." See WP:SOURCES for a good rundown on sources. Feel free to post to WP:RSN if you object to using a consensus of published third-party articles over the first-party source and an IRS filing. tedder (talk) 19:05, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia doesn't have moderators. It has consensus. As for what the government says PGR is, take a closer look at the very same link that you posted. Some of those 501(c)3 non-profit organisations have "club" as part of their name - which blows part of your argument completely out of the water i.e. you can be both a club AND a 501(c)3 non-profit. --Biker Biker (talk) 19:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official IRS Filings 

message: I added both 501(c) and honor guard to the infobox which hopefully should keep everyone happy ... but can I just say that, 
:a) I think the PGR are a motorcycle club, 
:b) the older daughters from the Westboro Baptist Church are the hottest fundamentalist chicks I've seen in a long time, and 
:c) God hates me even if I am not a fag, and I am going to go to hell. I just hope it is not the same hell.  --Bridge Boy (talk) 01:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honor Guard 

message: This is the first time I have ever posted to Wikipedia, so please bear with me.  I've read through most of the discussion about whether or not the Patriot Guard Riders is a Motorcycle Club.  Some editors have cited the "DUCK" test for classifying it as a Club.  I'd like to offer a slightly different point of view.
I have been a member of the Patriot Guard Riders since August 2006.  I drive a Support Vehicle (aka "Cage") transporting flags, water and supply to PGR Missions in my Saturn Ion.  In February of this year I was elected to serve a two year term as the Corporate Treasurer of the PGR, Inc.  My term began 01MAY12.
A previous poster suggested the PGR talk to the Press to dispel the notion that the PGR is a Motorcycle Club.  We have and are happy to do so whenever possible.  But how do you suggest we handle the instance of the Reporter who files a story without ever interviewing a Member or Leader?  How do we refute the Reporter who continues to call the PGR a Club even after they were specifically told during the interview that it is not?
Yes, a majority of the Flag Line Members are "Bikers" and ride motorcycles, but there is a significant number who don't.  There are no official statistics, but I would estimate at least 15% and as much as 25% of the Flag Line Members do not own or ride motorcycles.
So, even though I am a "Primary Source," I very respectfully ask the "Editors" of this page the following questions...
How can you call me, an elected officer with fiduciary responsibility to the PGR, Inc., a member of a Motorcycle Club if I do not own and have never owned a motorcycle in my life?
If they have never owned or ridden a motorcycle in their life, how can you call 15-25% of the Patriot Guard Riders members of a Motorcycle Club?
I appreciate any respectful responses.
With Greatest Respect & Honor,
Lee "PieMan" Anderson - Treasurer - PGR, Inc. 
PGRTreasurer (talk) 03:27, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So what are you actually, then, if not a biker club? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

text: I am a member of two motorcycle clubs in the UK, both of which are part of the British Motorcyclists Federation, yet both clubs openly welcome people who don't own or ride motorcycles. Are they also not clubs under your definition? --Biker Biker (talk) 06:09, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  How Am I A Member of a Motorcycle Club When I Don't Own A Motorcycle??? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Patriot Guard Riders. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add  after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://somd.com/news/headlines/2007/5419.shtml
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 14:54, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified