Talk:Sonoma County, California

message: Also for the record are the wineries from the old list in the main article, wikilinked so that if someone does write articles on them, they'll become noticeably active:
*Benziger Family Winery
*Benziger Winery
*Buena Vista Winery
*Chateau Souverain
*Chateau St. Jean
*Clos Du Bois Wines
*Deerfield Ranch Winery
*Frei Brothers Winery
*Gallo of Sonoma Winery
*Hartford Court
*Imagery Estates
*Inman Family Wines
*J Vineyards & Winery
*Kendall-Jackson Wine Estates
*Kenwood Vineyards
*La Crema Winery
*Matanzas Creek Winery
*Rancho Zabaco Winery
*Ravenswood Winery
*Russian Hill Estate Wines
*Sebastiani Vineyards and Winery
*St. Francis Vineyard and Winery
*Sonoma-Cutrer Vineyards
*Stonestreet Winery
*Valley of the Moon Winery
*White Oak Vineyards
Names minus "Winery"
*Benziger Family
*Benziger
*Buena Vista (winery)
*Chateau Souverain
*Chateau St. Jean
*Clos Du Bois Wines
*Deerfield Ranch
*Frei Brothers
*Gallo of Sonoma
*Hartford Court
*Imagery Estates
*Inman Family Wines
*J Vineyards
*Kendall-Jackson
*Kenwood Vineyards
*La Crema
*Matanzas Creek
*Rancho Zabaco
*Ravenswood (winery)
*Russian Hill Estate Wines
*Sebastiani Vineyards
*St. Francis Vineyard
*Sonoma-Cutrer Vineyards
*Stonestreet
*Valley of the Moon (winery)
*White Oak Vineyards
--Calton | Talk 07:50, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The long winery list in this article is cumbersome and probably should go into a separate article with branching ref in this article. what do others think? Anlace 18:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sonoma County Wineries

message: All unincorporated settlements (some mostly historic) added for someone to expand. Taken from USGS maps and Compass Maps' Santa Rosa and Sonoma, Petaluma and Sonoma County (). At the time of purchase (circa 1995), this map was very outdated, but the settlement names match entries on USGS maps for Sonoma County.
--Skinnerbird 08:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unincorporated Settlements

message: One thing I noticed while checking the results of the Geo and Transpo realignment, is that the Wikitable of national claims to the land is not displaying properly. The text seems to be overlapping into the flag cells... Edit Centric 19:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, must have been a screen glitch, cleared my browser cache, went back, and now it's displaying properly. Again, hmm... Edit Centric 07:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Darned Wikitable 

message: The lengths of the wineries and film sections are out of balance with needed breadth of coverage in other expansion areas.  perhaps each (wineries and films) should have its own separate sub article.  this article badly needs expansion on such topics as geology, history, prehistory, ecology, land use and culture.  so the breadth issues must be proportionate to the topic importance. what do others think? Anlace 18:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As a Sonoma County resident for more than 50 years, I agree the article doesn't cover the fundamental topics you cited.  Wineries and tourism have become Sonoma County's major industries, but this page doesn't need to list more than the major wineries and vineyards.  -- Mukrkrgsj 02:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks, Sue.  I think we generally agree with Anlace, that "geology, history, prehistory, ecology, land use and culture" (among others) are the significant topics.  Speaking only for myself, I may further edit the wineries section as time permits, but I have little interest in the list of movies made here.  Btw, the Santa Rosa article has a long list of movies.  -- Mukrkrgsj 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

text: One explanation for all the "overly cumbersome lists" here, is that the "WikiProject U.S. Counties standards" page recommends them!  Likewise, what's here so far appears to follow the recommended template fairly closely.  Click on the link at the top of this page. -- Mukrkrgsj 15:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: overly cumbersome lists

message: Guys I'm really sorry about all the negativity that came up over the nomination. It's a very nice page, but I can't handle the personal attacks I've endured for the past three days just for nominating it. I've been called a clone, a spy, everything else under the sun, even endured two complaints posted on the admin talk pages over this crap. I don't do well with psychos, so I'll be moving on. I feel terrible about it, but the last thing I ever expected was to pick up a wikistalker. You gotta love someone who is completely unheard of, then once the page is nominated, shows up and plasters the page with 12 warning banners and begins personally attacking people until the nomination is withdrawn. (Yes I withdrew it) ...and then disappears again.
I'm sorry about the rant, but I needed it off my chest. Feel free to delete it if it's offensive. I truly am sorry about the trouble. I still think it's a great article, and yes I still think it's worthy of Featured Article Status, considering some of the Featured Articles are not as good in my opinion. Sonoma County is one of the most beautiful places in the world, and I hope it get's a featured Article someday. Good luck with it guys, that's from the heart. It's time for me to go.
Sue Rangell[citation needed] 01:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Luck my Freinds 

message: Well we have made a lot of progress on this article. Regarding the lists, i propose the following:
1. for the cities list, put only the unincorporated entities in list form.  the incorporated cities are already in text form and no reason to duplicate.  The adjacent counties can be covered in one text sentence.
*Finished as of now. Anlace 04:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On 2 be sure to check form for other counties and their wineries, and either copy, or if appropriate suggest a form according to naming conventions, etc.  There are many more wineries in Sonoma County than in Santa Rosa, so are you suggesting subsume the Santa Rosa wineries?  That would work, but it might be a pet list.  Also, I think the history of wineries in Sonoma is longer than the usual text in a list article.   Good work thus far.  KP Botany 03:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your point is a good one, which i was actually ruminating.  Better to create a new article called Sonoma County wineries, so that the important history, AVA discussion, etc. can be covered and not just a big list.  In any case i was thinking the list (within the new sub-article) should cover the whole county, not just the santa rosa wineries.  Anlace 04:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to tackle the lists

message: The introduction has been edited to read:
:"In prehistoric times Sonoma County was the home to several distinct Native American tribes, who lived within the carrying capacity of the land; by 1850, European settlement had set a new direction that would prove to radically alter the course of land use and resource management of this region."
True, the Pomo, Coast Miwok, and Wappo Indians were small bands of hunter/gatherers, and the increased numbers and technology of European settlers have profoundly altered the environment.  I argue locally against continuous growth and development for private profit, but I'm not comfortable with this land use/carrying capacity/resource management approach to history here.  Comments?
  
The intro continues:
:"As of 2007 Sonoma County has rich agricultural land capability, and has also preserved considerable forested area, beach habitat and other open space; these preservation efforts are products of an electorate that is aware of the value of resource conservation, expressed through an open space initiative[1] that has provided considerable funding for public acquisition of natural areas."
If the previous sentence is kept, I would edit this one to read:
"As of 2007, Sonoma County still has rich agricultural land. The voters have twice approved an open space initiativeSonoma County Agricultural Preservation and Open Space District that has provided considerable funding for public acquisition of natural areas, which has preserved forested areas, beach habitat, and other open spaces."
Let me note here that:
1) The great majority of Sonoma County "agriculture" today is grapegrowing, to make wine, and is criticized as "monoculture";
2) The voters have twice approved a sales tax surcharge for the SCAP&OSD, but they can't control its administration by local politicians and their appointees, most of whom represent an entrenched local establishment of businessmen and developers;
3) The OSD has been criticized for spending millions of taxpayer dollars to buy intangible "development rights"--frequently for rural estates in no danger of development--whereas the voters thought the money would be spent to deter urban sprawl in the Santa Rosa Plain, and create greenbelt community separators.
Comments?
-- Mukrkrgsj 01:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: good points mukrkrgs. i have made additional edits to attempt to respond to the issues you have advanced. regards. Anlace 20:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent changes to the Introduction

message: the article section named "Resources" is very strange. it generally offers generic sites....not specific to the county at all.  this section should be evaluated critically and most of it dismantled.  What the article needs badly is more line note references. Anlace 03:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recently alphabetized the section, and didn't see anything specific to this article. It could be deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mukrkrgsj (talk • contribs) 07:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Resources section

message: I have lived in guerneville for almost 16 years, and i have never heard someone call highway 116 "Guerneville Highway."  I have heard pocket canyon and 116 but not Guerneville HighwayJollyjoegiant 01:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming Conventions

message: This article does not meet the Good Article criteria, and will not be listed at the present time. There are numerous short sections, and lists, and the use of citations is insufficient (lots of unsourced sections). While 100% of the article does not need to be cited for GA status, important information, such as numbers & statistical figures, and information that is likely to be challenged, should be. There should generally be at least a couple of citations in each main section with no 'citation needed' or other warning tags. Furthermore, citations should be formatted per WP:CITE, and external link (non-inline) citations should be converted to inline format.
The lead section should provide a good summary of the article as a whole. It would help to review WP:LEAD for guidelines on how to improve this.
Subsection titles should ideally be short and concise. there are several subsection titles which could be written better (e.g. 'geography' instead of 'geography and environment'). See WP:MSH for pertinent guidelines here. I would also recommend changing the order of sections a bit; ideally, it would help to start with the etymology section, followed by history, then geography, demographics, and economy. Beyond that, the order is negotiable, but many geography-related articles seem to follow this general introduction of sections, as the information contained in them is usually sought after by readers first.
Some information about climate should be added to the geography section.
The history section is way too short, and completely uncited. The table with individual national flags in it doesn't seem to be adding much to the content, and the information in it might be better done as prose. The flag icons can pretty much go without any major loss to the article (they may look cool, but in the end, it's just image-cruft, and really just adding to increased download times for the page).
The etymology section seems to have good information, but could be rewritten and condensed a bit. Try to avoid the repetition of the phrase 'according to' in back-to-back paragraphs.
The demographics section just contains bot-generated census 2000 data, which is acceptable at a minimum, but doesn't go into too much detail beyond basic census data. A better discussion of the different ethnic groups and people of the area, and how they interact could be added, and the bot-generated text should be rewritten.
The government section has the minimum necessary information, but more could be provided about politics and significant issues. Where's the county seat? The external link references should be converted to inline format.
The cities and towns section is just one big list in an ugly table with lots of red links. It might be better to eliminate this section entirely, and make a template with the names of the major cities and towns in it, in smaller font. Minor 'census-designated places' don't need to be listed. You could also move this to a list on a separate page, linked to under the 'see also' section.
Places of interest and transportation are just lists. These should be converted to prose. Consider renaming 'places of interest' to 'culture', and talk more about the overall culture of the region. The little highway marker images in the 'transportation' section should be removed as well, for the same reasons as the aforementioned flag icons. Try to reduce the use of 2nd/3rd level headings.
Try to reduce the 2nd level headings under economy as well, instead talking about the economy in such a way that everything is mentioned together. Each individual segment of the economy doesn't need it's own subsection header. Discuss the overall economy here, without going into super-minute details of individual industries. The 'see main article' links need to be wikified according to the manual of style.
The politics section contains a single table with no prose to put any of that information into context. The table appears to contain presidential election results for the county by who voted for what party, which doesn't say squat about the actual local politics, and is really not very notable with regards to the individual county (it could go). I would think politics should be better covered with the government section anyway, so merge the section with government.
Education is just a list. Should be converted to prose. Merge the information about the library system into a single section called 'education', since it's all related. Lists of schools are also only a small part of a discussion on education. The section should cover more information, like the population and demographics of the student population, overall quality of the school system, maybe some information on popular courses of study at the universities, etc.
You could probably cover law enforcement and crime as a brief paragraph in the government section as well.
If Hollywood is a major part of the industry of sonoma county, I would think that the 'film locations' section could be merged with 'economy'. It's not necessary to list every film that was ever filmed (in whole or in part) in the county, as that is better done with a linked list. Instead, discuss some of the more significant films, such as major films that contributed to the growth of the entertainment sector of the economy, in prose.
The external links section also appears to be a bit long. Consider pruning down to the essential links only, and eliminating any linkspam. It might help to review WP:EL for guidelines on this.
I found several manual of style issues throughout the article, so I think it would help to review WP:MOS for tips on formatting.
Hope this helps improve the article. Cheers! Dr. Cash 06:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Review

message: The introduction states that "In 2002 Sonoma County ranked as the second county in the United States in agricultural production.[1] As early as 1920 Sonoma County was ranked as the eighth most productive U.S county,[2] "  However, the PDF linked to does not support that statement.  The 2002 total value of agricultural products sold data from the 2002 Census of Agriculture
County Profile of the United States Department of Agriculture, California Agricultural Statistics Service, indicates that Sonoma County is 16th in California and 32nd in the United States.  The data is available at:
http://www.nass.usda.gov/census/census02/profiles/ca/cp06097.PDF
50n0m4 15:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction Statement on Agricultural Production appears unsupported

message: I have undone the edit made from 75.72.92.166 claiming Sonoma County as the northernmost in the Bay Area. Sonoma County's northernmost point is at about 38°51'10.54"N, and the southernmost at about 38°4'23.71". Napa County's northernmost point is at about 38°51'51.28", and the southernmost at  38° 9'20.05" making it further north on the whole. Given that the Bay Area article includes Napa, we can't make a claim for Sonoma.Ibadibam (talk) 17:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Northernmost in SF Bay Area 

message: I noticed that the movie section sent my eyes to the list area first, rather than the paragraph above it. In other words, I found myself asking "Where is the listing of The Birds?". I had to mentally search the area before realizing that they were listed in the above paragraph. It's just the way that section attracts the eyes, does anyone mind if I try to fix it up a little bit? This Article used to be a lot prettier, and I think that with a little work, we can get it up to good article status or better. --Sue Rangell[citation needed] 05:52, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movies 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Sonoma County, California. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Sonoma County, California. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110531210815/http://www.naco.org/Counties/Pages/FindACounty.aspx to http://www.naco.org/Counties/Pages/FindACounty.aspx
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/sonoma_county_climate.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/pdf/climate_location_data.pdf
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130911234518/http://factfinder2.census.gov to http://factfinder2.census.gov
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150924103756/http://www.sonoma-county.org/edb/pdf/2007/Sonoma_County_indicators_2007.pdf to http://www.sonoma-county.org/edb/pdf/2007/sonoma_county_indicators_2007.pdf
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.parks.sonoma.net/Annadel.html
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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://factfinder2.census.gov/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I intend to archive this talk page, or most of it, per the following protocols: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Archiving_a_talk_page
Isonomia09 (talk) 06:39, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intent to Archive 

message: There are multiple incidents of pretty horrific government corruption.  Some examples include the Mayor of Windsor being accused by 12 different women of a pattern of rape and sexual assault.  These women are very credible and include multiple politicians, including a deputy district attorney for the county and fellow Windsor council-member, who accused Mr. Foppoli of putting a date rape drug in her drink, raping her in a wine tasting room, filming it, and then trying to blackmail her.  Because of the 'conflict of interest', the local DA's office forwarded the case to the Attorney General's office under Rob Bonta, but it has been sitting on their desk for over 2 years.  Another example is that there was a literal/veritable torture ring in the Sonoma County jail where there is video evidence uploaded to YouTube by the victims' attorney, Izaak Schwaiger, of the 4-6 deputies often wearing ski masks, riot gear, no name tags, and carrying a shotgun with them, and subjecting the inmates to "pain compliance" techniques.  I struggle to word this in an encyclopedic manner, but it is obvious from the videos that the deputies did this with the sole purpose of causing pain and suffering.  My understanding is that Court documents meet Wikipedia standards on sources of what people said.  According to Court documents, the inmates alleged that their heads were slammed against the ground and against door frames, and one inmate sustained internal bleeding.  The following is very graphic and may not be suitable for Wikipedia due to that, but that inmate allegedly lost control of his bowels, defecated, and then was forced into underwear several sizes too small for him, and then was put in a suicide watch room without being allowed to wash, and was not allowed to see medical staff for several days.  To be very, very clear, this is all easily verifiable with news articles.  It was a 2015 case in Sonoma County that went to Federal District Court, and I have the Court documents.  There was a policy called "Yard Counseling" or "Behavior Counseling" endorsing this behavior on the part of the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office that was in place until 2018, and the news articles about this can be found by searching for the keywords: "Sonoma County Yard Counseling 2015".  I am choosing not to name the victims out of respect for their rights.  There were several other incidents as well indicating a large degree of government corruption.  Various other examples, along with supportive sources, can be provided. Isonomia09 (talk) 08:15, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be aware of Wikipedia's policy regarding attack pages. These articles will be speedily deleted, and users who create or add such material will be blocked from editing. Thanks for your understanding. Magnolia677 (talk) 12:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate all input and notice of things to be wary about, and am open to discussion, guidance and review, thank you.  I will note that you are the one who deleted my section on the talk page before and threatened me with a block (on the talk page for my user space).  After reviewing the "attack page" reference, I  think that my proposal would objectively not qualify as turning the article into an attack page.  While the edits I intend to make are "negative" in nature, I would also argue that the articles I intend to edit are entirely positive, rather than neutral, and the additions I intend to make (with careful regard for reliable secondary sources) make the articles more neutral.  I do appreciate your oversight and providing the references to be wary of, and can respect your alternative viewpoint.  Isonomia09 (talk) 18:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

text: It sounds like the project you propose would run afoul of Wikipedia's policies on original research and synthesis. Wikipedia relies heavily on reliable secondary sources that have already done the analysis you seem to propose. This helps Wikipedia to determine that something is verifiable and notable. It is beyond Wikipedia's scope to take on those tasks itself. If there's a possibility of getting the information you mention here into the encyclopedia, it would be by finding a reliable source that has already published it.   signed, Willondon (talk)  14:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The two examples I gave above have already been extensively published in sources that meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources (credible news companies).  See the Wikipedia article on Dominic Foppoli, for example.  I appreciate the references.  I have not read the "synthesis" article yet, and will re-review the reliable source page, and secondary sources page.  Isonomia09 (talk) 18:29, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Government Corruption 

message: There is a table under the "crime" section of the article called "Cities by population and crime rates".  The numbers/boxes are not labeled, and it is impossible to know what those numbers are intended to represent.  If nobody clarifies or adds labels to the boxes within a reasonable amount of time, I am going to delete this table.  The table needs a row added at the top with labels explaining what the numbers in the columns below the labels represent.  Isonomia01 (talk) 14:46, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does anyone know what the numbers in the "Cities by population and crime rates" represent?