Talk:Azerbaijan–Iran relations

message: Articles contain some one-sided opinion and POV which should be removed. Historical context poorly written.--Dacy69 13:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whats POV? Everything is sourced...From neutral sources.Hajji Piruz 14:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it is different to the India-UK case. it is more like India-Pakistan. --Pejman47 19:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Good point. Grandmaster 11:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We have talked about the Azerbaijan issue. I've talked about it with Grandmaster, Dacy69, and Atabek. Maybe, if you guys are so insistent on the few sources, you guys should add that some sources say Armenian land extended all the way to the Caspian sea in the NK article or other disputed territorial articles. Why are you guys editing with this double standard?Hajji Piruz 14:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe any reference to any country's territory belonging (being part of) in the past to any modern country is absolutely irrelevant and unnecessary. We are talking about Azerbaijan, not about Iran. Such references are mostly politically motivated and carry the seads of territorial claims, which has nothing to do with history. Therefore, introducing the Republic of Azerbaijan to the Wiki users as the territory that was part of Iran in the past is just as much irrelevant as writing a page on Algeria and starting with the sentence that it belonged to France. These references take the topic off the route and divert it to a different and irrelevant direction.Batabat 19:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think that we should spill  one dispute over many pages. Secondly, some statements are one-sided anyway, for example about culture and needs 1) proper references 2) more balanced approach 3) inclusion other views on the issue.--Dacy69 16:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Then first of all issue about name has nothing to do here--Dacy69 16:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I said nothing about the name issue. I put in information about the relations between the two nations in 1918...Are you trying to say that Iran and Azerbaijan did not have relations in 1918?Hajji Piruz 16:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  I mean the name of Republic of Azerbaijan. quiet controversial and you mention that it had repurcussion in Iran and the same time you are removing cartoon issue which had reopurcussion in Azerbaijan. Don;t then accuse other poeple in double standards--Dacy69 16:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The cartoon issue, started by an Azeri (ironically), has nothing to do with the political relations between these two COUNTRIES. The naming issue was a political relation that the two nations had in 1918. I merely quoted Swietochowski so that there wouldnt be any controversy.Hajji Piruz 16:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cartoon issue, much more than name issue in 1918 was implications between TWO COUNTRIES. You can check a number of articles in internet. It was mentioned many times.--Dacy69 16:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * Cartoon's issue, was a problem that still needs debate. Considering the cartoonist's picture "designed to insult Azeri identity" is a prototype of such "Articles [that] contain some one-sided opinion and POV " that you have mentioned before. The real story is that the Persian slang has many loan words from Azeri-Turkish. I'm an Azeri-Iranian myself and know many of such words , like Qarashmish (chaotic in Persian), Yer be Yer ( even ; as in "we are even" ) and so on ... The expression " Namana" ,that is used in Persian Slang, is used when a person is encountered with a surprising task and want to reject it , something like "What did you said ?!" (Plus surprise and rejection) .The cartoonist himself was Azeri and almost all of his cartoons have such slang expressions. Changing the government from reformist to conservative , the potential for revolt was high and the reformists forces in the government help the revolt in the cover "insult to the Azeri ethnic"...  So that's more complex than considering it a mere ethnic conflict, and that can't be mentioned here.... Sagh Olasan --Alborz Fallah 17:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The issue should not be completely omitted from the article. We strive for providing objective information in Wikipedia, and the restriction of information about the protests which did happen is not quite encyclopedic, regardless of our interpretation of them. So, I think the protest shall be mentioned and references to their interpretation by any side shall also be brought. Upon discussion, we can incorporate those in the article. Atabek 18:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Representing links can fulfil that need:the user himself can understand the NPOV out of them.No need to add our and /or certain media explanation in the main body of the text.YASHA!--Alborz Fallah 22:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a government or news agency, in order to provide some information and withhold other. Protests were a fact, and they numbered millions. So that should be presented for fairness. Interpretation of them should be left out for reader to judge. Atabek 23:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alborz, Wikipedia is based on sources. WE don't make any interpretation out of the cartoon events. I cited reference. That's it. It should stay. All your observation of cartoon issue might be interesting but it also might be your own opinion or OR. So, the event is well-known and referenced. It had repurcussion in both countries. Thus, it should be in the article.--Dacy69 01:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: I added some info on modern period and I believe two links in references are dead and should be removed. I put info on events which had implications for the relations. --Dacy69 16:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern relations 

message: I added couple more references on diplomatic and governmental exchanges between ADR and Qajar court. Atabek 16:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim that all Iranian Azeris objected to the words of Azerbaijani president is unsubstantiated. The reference is made only to Iranian officials. Grandmaster 10:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  ah this way. Then bring me evidences that all inhabitants of the republic Azerbaijan were happy about renaming the area as Azerbaijan--Babakexorramdin 17:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ADR-Iran

message: Atabek's newest addition really doesnt have anything to do with this article, as it belongs in the Iran-Armenia relations article, but whatever... Anyway, I took out the part about Nowruz, as that certainly has nothing to do with anything, and I put that Armenia and Azerbaijan are enemies at the end, so that it doesnt imply that the source is saying that.Hajji Piruz 00:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Atabek's newest addition

message: I fixed up some things, such as rewording some sentences and taking out others that make no sense. This article is a mess, it should be organized better.Hajji Piruz 01:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I restored this line which you deleted: There were incidents involving of the use of force or its demonstration on the part of Iranian military forces. It is factually accurate. Also, there was no popular protest among Iranian Azeris over the words of Azerbaijani president. You cannot make generalizations like that without proper references. The only angered ones were Iranian officials, who act in line with the official policy of Iranian government. Grandmaster 05:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm restoring the part about Iranian Azeris. It's not just the officials who were unhappy, many Iranian Azeris were unhappy as well, there were protests outside the Azerbaijani consulate in Tabriz. As shocking as it may sound to you, most Iranian Azeris are religious Shias (far more religious than Persians) and dislike what they consider "interventionist" and "anti-religious" politics of the Azerbaijan republic. Such protests outside the Azerbaijani consulate in Tabriz are regular affairs. AlexanderPar 08:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks like a government sponcored action to me. From what I can see protests against the opression of Azerbaijani language draw bigger crowds. Grandmaster 09:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  Now you restored the line: President Ilham Aliyev's attitude of calling Iranian Azeri's as "Azerbaijanis who live in Iran" has angered some in the Iranian Azeri community. So whom exactly did those words "anger"? The only reference is made to Iranian officials. Your reference is unrelated, those students were protesting some anti-religious article in Azerbaijani media. Grandmaster 09:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

text: No, they were used to exert pressure on Azerbaijan republic, attacking Azerbaijani exploration ships and invading Azerbaijani air space. Grandmaster 16:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fixing

message: Pejman47, did you actually notice that you removed other references besides Brenda Shaffer in your last edit? Atabek 17:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Undue Weight was removed, and he did so correctly also.Hajji Piruz 17:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He also removed the other references. If Abbott reference does not go back, then Swietochowski reference will have to go to. Atabek 23:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Abbot quote violates Wikipedias policy on undue weight. Pejman correctly took it out.Hajji Piruz 01:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I hope the arbcom will review the behavior of Pejman47, who takes no part in discussions and turns up only to revert. --Grandmaster 09:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The only source to claiming Republic of Azerbaijan considered part of Greater Iran is Iranica (and even that text needs to be investigated to find the precise wording). So given this fact, the general reference should be replaced with wording that only some Iranian sources consider so, not eveyrone. Please, bring other sources to show that RofA is considered part of Greater Iran. Atabek 13:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Atabek Iranica is online of course and theit is not an Iranian source.  At least the author of that particular article is not Iranian.  Maybe one can justify saying the article is written by an Iranian (hence perhaps Iranian source) if the author of that particular article was an Iranian(which still does not make it pro-Iran since it has to be shown to have been written based on such intentions).  Anyways I think Swietchowski quotes complements that of Professor. Pierre Thorez.  So I put both of them in.  Medes, Achaemenids, Parthians, Sassanids, Qajar, Safavids and also local dynasties which controlled some parts of the caucus and some parts of Iran (like Shaddadids,Atabekan..) makes up most of that percentage.   --alidoostzadeh 02:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also I am tired of seeing the naming issue in every article.  I am removing it from this article and several other articles.  I'll give my explanation on the Arran article.  The issue is simple.  In Wikipedia, one article deals with one issue and to mention the same issue in every article is really not Encyclopedic.  (much like the etymology section).   I have removed this quote:"According to Tadeusz Swietochowski[4]:
“ 	Although the proclamation restricted its claim to the territory north of the Araxes, the use of the name Azerbaijan would soon bring objections from Iran. In Teheran, suspicions were aroused that the Republic of Azerbaijan served as an Ottoman device for detaching the Tabriz province from Iran. Likewise, the national revolutionary Jangali movement in Gilan, while welcoming the independence of every Muslim land as a "source of joy," asked in its newspaper if the choice of the name Azerbaijan implied the new republic's desire to join Iran. If so, they said, it should be stated clearly, otherwise Iranians would be opposed to calling that republic Azerbaijan. Consequently, to allay Iranian fears, the Azerbaijani government would accommodatingly use the term Caucasian Azerbaijan in its documents for circulation abroad." since the issue is covered in the history of the name of Azerbaijan article.. --alidoostzadeh 02:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Its directly relevant to the topic. This is about Iran-Azerbaijan relations, and these relations began in 1918.Hajji Piruz 04:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disruption by Pejman47

message: Babakexorramdin, posts in a blog are not an encyclopedic entry in the article. If you have facts, please, produce them in a manner citeable and appropriate for encyclopedia, else don't make claims. Atabəy (talk) 05:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The blogs were used as additional sources. The event was covered by many other sources. The blogs were useful because they showed the pictures and how people reacted to it. In that it was clear that Panturks and irredentist groups claim Iranian territory as that of the republic of Azerbaijan and it was clear that Iranians were angry and upset about it.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My personal idea is that the whole thing is not important and may not be included in this article .Maybe mentioning it in the article of Eurovision is reasonable, but in this article it don't have real usage : that was only a TV show ! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 15:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: OR

message: I was thinking a photo of Presidents Ilham Aliyev and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are appropriate,and interesting.All articles need photos,just paragraphs and texts make it boring and bland.Any other suggestions would be fine.
Thanks
ChowFan
ChowFan (talk) 23:36, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A good point, I suggest this picture and to crop Aliyev and Ahmadinejad. Neftchi (talk) 12:57, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does anyone else agree that a few pictures are needed? 

message: I removed the 5th grade book section. First of all, it doesnt belong in a "see also" headline. Second there is no objective source for it, mehrnews, is an Iranian newssite, the source is not even in English. Neftchi (talk) 09:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Anon 108.18.222.120 - reverted back the item without even discussing. First changing a few words doesnt mean you can use this source. Seconds of all its not even in English and its a Iranian based source, thus not objective. An thirds this subject does not belong in the Iran-Azerbaijan article and especially not under "see also" headline. Neftchi (talk) 10:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The cover of the book is visible on the image of report . According to WP:ELYES , section 2 , I think the 5th grade book cover can be linked in External links section .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

text: And also to inform that the non-English article can be used , although English ones are preferred.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:21, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem here is, the real source is a picture. Anyone can draw a picture and print it out and thereby make a claim or accusation. How can we establish this is a genuine book and not a forgery, especially since we talk about a biased source. Also the biased source doesnt even explain what this picture is. The description is an assumption or interpretation. I ask that you give a proper objective source on this controversial claim.Neftchi (talk) 12:53, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Do you mean this book , the 5th grade book of 2006 , is fake ? What if I have one myself ?! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 07:19, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No disrespect Alborz but you know we need an objective source. Own research is not allowed. Neftchi (talk) 08:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You probably know how Iranian state telivison, continuously accuses Baku as a Zionist regime and sometimes even shows a wrong map of Azerbaijan. But none of that is included here. Its inrelevant to the relations of Iran and Azerbaijan, let alone a 5th grade book. In fact we must shorten the diplomatic relations, its filled with a lot of small incidents from both sides. We need to expand the economic and cultural section. Neftchi (talk) 12:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

text: No problem in giving the true picture that is firm relations in cultural and economic ties . It would be also good to rewrite the comment about Iranian support for unrest in Azerbaijan Republic .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 14:08, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  5th grade book 

message: This article is missing the cultural and economic relations between the two countries. We need more then just chronological political information. I suggest at least a culture and economy headline, there are many things both these countries and nations have in common.Neftchi (talk) 23:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats exacly what I mean. The diplomacy section needs to be shortened, we need a culture and economic section. Maybe even a section of the mutual city of Astara. Neftchi (talk) 17:28, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture and economics 

message: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/03/israel-eyeing-azerbaijan-as-launchpad-for-iran-strike-says-foreign-policy.html
If we hype this up enough, we ought to be able to trigger an invasion. Do I have a second on the motion? Hcobb (talk) 12:34, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Airbase for attack on Iran 

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