Talk:Hrant Dink/Archive 1

message: How come they haven't decided to put this into question yet? -- Aivazovsky 20:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Who? Baristarim 20:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Turkish government.  How come they haven't put article 301 of the Turkish penal code into question?  You would think that they might at least discuss it in the aftermath of Dink's death as he was convicted and imprisoned on it. -- Aivazovsky 20:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They had't ruled out any modifications even before this. However they are still waiting for a clear jurisprudence to be established. The issue that is overlooked is the fact that that article is styled upon similar articles in many European countries, and as such the important thing will be the caselaw that will be established. The High Court of Appeals is still establishing the legal precedences for it (the article is only three years old), and the problem is mainly with that. It is actually a bit more complicated than it seems at first sight. The case against Dink was the work of some busybodies, which further complicates things and it didn't help either.. Baristarim 21:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article 301 of the Turkish penal code

message: I would like to have an organized translation effort to build this article from his interviews. However, there are some issues: a) find a credible source  (an interview)  b) how to cite the translated information. c) organize it into distinct sections so that it would make a meaningful text, instead of an interview. Is it possible?--OttomanReference 18:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is worth the effort. I can help with the translation, just show me the text.--Doktor Gonzo 18:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The article should express his opinions on Armenian-Turkish relations. People should know.--Doktor Gonzo 18:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you find a good one, show it to me. I'm looking for non controversial things. First and most importantly, It should be respectfull to the person and his memory. --OttomanReference 18:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I posted the URL of Yıldırım Türker's 'portrait' above, "Hrant'ın hikâyesi" (Hrant's Story). Here's another newspaper story on Hrant: "Hayatı, resmi olmayan Ermeni tarihi" (His life was an account of unofficial Armenian history). You may want to have a look at these --Okan 19:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It should be fair use, however I would still check it since it is not neccessarily a critical commentary on CNN Turk itself.. I don't know. Re Cretan: Is there any way that entry could be changed? I really don't know how wikinews entries work. If possible someone can write a better entry and submit it to wikinews editorial staff... Baristarim 21:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Barış, I have no idea on how to submit an entry to the editorial staff and not much enthusiasm for ghostwriting for them. They could have at least put his photo. With the present page setup, it is highly likely for a newcomer to the subject to take Barzan Ibrahim to be Hrant Dink, which is quelque peu disrestpectful of what Dink stood for and it should have been the simplest of considerations at the first place. Cretanforever 22:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cretan, how is it disrespectful to what he stood for? Anyway, did you recognize how much El Greco and Barzan Ibrahim look alike? Weirrrrd.--Doktor Gonzo 23:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: loool. I agree with Cretan's point about the picture, and also tried to learn how wikinews entries to the main page worked, but wasn't able to learn anything.. I think that somebody "up there" just decides it and boom :) Baristarim 23:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation effort 

message: There needs to be a general copy-edit and expansion of the early life section.. There is a very good ref from Hurriyet (for Turkish speakers) that talks about his life along with some analysis of his early years .. It is very good, informative and is accompanied by very good quality critical analysis. For those who are interested :) Baristarim 23:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The early life section really needs to be expanded, particularly about his activities when he was young and some of the differends he had with the religious hierarchy of the Armenian community of Turkey. But again, most of the resources are in Turkish, so they would need to be translated, and summarized so that they are not copy-vios. It would be very nice since that would explain the later political orientation he would have in his later years... Baristarim 13:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expand 

message: Wouldn't it be an everlasting Wikiedian commemoration in respect to Hrant Dink's efforts when we form a Wikipedia:Armenian and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board, where we, Armenians and Turks, could share all the materials and thoughts belonging to our relationship? CeeGee 07:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be great. I mean, we have to show that we can also use words rather than bullets. Deliogul 10:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be very nice indeed. I was wondering the same thing, but I wanted to see how GR-TR thing would work out first. It actually had a good effect, IMO, since it succeeded in at least creating the impression that there was at least a spirit of cooperation in Wikipedia, and I have been noticing less edit-wars in GR-TR related articles. If there is enough interest and we can hammer out a good format for the board, then it would definitely would be worthwhile.. Let's clean this article up, bring it to GA status, and that could be a good stepping stone and a preliminary step towards the creation of that board.. Baristarim 13:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As "Hrant Dink" put it forward, the "poisoned blood associated with the Turk"; is too tick. It is Armenian choice not to live within the Turkish communities. This even applies to patriarch, whom many times critical to Hrant Dink. There is no second, follower, behind "Hrant Dink." That voice is silenced. The issues would be: a) Armenians would consider it as a plot against the recognition of genocide. b)only and only if Turkish members recognize the genocide would be credible and even in that situation they would always be under suspicion c) the 1915 meters-deep well is too deep to communicate other issues, even if they are minor to them. Sorry, my perception is that Armenians in that group would be labeled as traitor. To be fair their contribution would be minimal. The lost-gain analysis on being in the middle for Armenian is not equal to the Turkish. Armenians who are in the middle are even being assassinated. Thanks. --OttomanReference 15:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Er...what? -- Aivazovsky 15:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever he/she means, I think this whole topic is getting a bit too OT. While it would be good for Armenians and Turks on wikipedia to cooperate, that's best discussed elsewhere. Opinions on Armenians and Turks are obviouslys a big no-no wherever on wikipedia you go 203.109.240.93 15:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creating Armenian and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board 

message: *Views section needs major expansion. 
:I am willing to translate his interviews/articles if we can find a place to use them. --Free smyrnan 14:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: About 75% done. --Free smyrnan 14:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Copied it to Talk:Hrant Dink/to do that appears under WPTR banner Baristarim 16:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To-Do

message: by Hrant Dink Original is at Agos
About generations 
7 November 2003 
This week, with the 'The footsteps of the fourth generation' article on our back page, we carry to the Armenians of Turkey the debate that the Diaspora has been having on 'preserving the Armenian identity'. 
Rather than just mention the topic once, we will try to keep this vital subject on our agenda within the climate of a healthy debate. 
Whether or not it is possible to classify the Armenians of Turkey as a 'Diaspora', these debates concern all Armenians, whether or not they are called Diaspora or something else, including even the citizens of Armenia. 
The Armenian world needs the process of questioning and self-criticism on how to shape its tomorrow and this process should no longer be missed.
The process that needs to be debated involves a number of questions. 
For example...
Has the dispersion of the Armenians to the world been of use in preserving the identity until now? Is this dispersion truly a 'Diaspora that has lost and is looking for its identity'?
Can an Armenian world that has been scattered all over the world preserve its Armenian identity?
Is it possible to keep the identity alive without assimilation in this dispersal?
With what values should we fill the definition of the 'Armenian identity'? Are these values able to satisfy the needs of the age in which we live?
Is being spread around a real threat for the loss of identity? Does being widely spread also offer advantages for enriching the identity?
Where in the Armenian identity can we place being local and universality?
etc. etc.
And even, a more radical question that some heedless people ask?
Is it necessary to preserve the identity and remain Armenian?
It has become necessary to 'live with fear' for the Armenian identity in the last century. 
Especially, the fear of disappearing, of extinction was, until recently, the main problem of the Armenian world. This psychology persisted until the independence of Armenia in both Diaspora and in Armenia. 
The people in Armenia feared that since they were not able to freely express their religion and nationality under the reigning Soviet regime and culture, they would eventually forget, and the people in Diaspora feared that they would lose their Armenianness under the majority cultures of the countries in which they live. 
The first and second generations of the Diaspora Armenians did not especially feel a need to ascertain the continuation of the identity in the countries they immigrated to. The continuing effects of the trauma they had suffered was by itself a major identity and did not need an extra effort. 
In the third and fourth generations, this situation changed drastically. 
In 1915, neither the world, nor those responsible for the trauma did anything, but time was without mercy and had its own process. 
A serious erosion in the identity began despite the traces of the trauma that had been transmitted across generations, Armenianness began to be forgotten and Americanization, Russification, becoming French began to accelerate. 
It was in these generations that mixed marriages increased, Armenian names were left, language was forgotten and the church was neglected. 
The atheist pressure that the church underwent in the Soviets was the bitterest portion of the unraveling of the identity, the Church that could barely preserve its own existence with the services that it could perform with difficulty, could no longer play the historical role on its congregation. 
However, the role of the Church in determining the Armenian identity was great. The weakening of the church was enough for weakening the Armenian identity. 
  
:I did the translation (and it is a rough translation, I tried to keep it as verbatim as possible and that makes it rather awkward). The original is at Agos. This series was the one that led to Dink's persecution under 301. I will remove the translations if people complain. I am now making it available here to allow other editors to distill Dink's views. --Free smyrnan 23:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: '''On the Armenian Identity (1)'''

message: by Hrant Dink Original is at Agos
Role of the church
14 November  2003 
In reality, the Church's existence only covers the last 1700 years of the ancient Armenian history of 4000 years, but the historical Armenian identity is almost completely filled by it. 
Not much seems to have been left from the pre-church periods. What remains are customs that the people somehow never gave up and the Church had to accept. The Church that wiped out all of the  temples, statues and figures of gods and practically all of the values of the pagan period, incorporated the customs it could not stop and took them under the roof of the church and turned them into rituals of the church. 
Many of today's holy days that we celebrate are nothing other than pagan customs adapted to Christianity. 
Since we are talking of what has been left from the past, it will be appropriate to mention how much of the Armenian cultural history is filled with religion. 
The data that reflects this the best are the historical artifacts that remain in both today's Armenia and yesterday's Armenia (Anatolia). 
Most of historical sites are churches, chapels, monasteries or Khaçkars (tombstones) that also belong to the religious realm. Again, today's museums in Armenia are filled mostly with items that belong to or pertain to the Church. 
This is so extensive that the role of the church in music, the role of the church in literature, the role of the church in architecture, the role of the church in art need to be questioned separately and when we look at each, it is inevitable to reach the conclusion that the influence of the Church is rich and its role can easily be demonstrated. 
All of these questions take us to this conclusion: 
The role that the Church plays in the definition of the Armenian identity is so large that even today, when you talk of Armenians, the definition is one of an Eastern nation that has merged its ethnicity and its religion like the Jews. 
According to the Orthodox view, it is not enough to say 'Armenian equals Christian'. It is necessary to emphasize 'Lusavorçagan' that gets its name from the Saint Krikor Lusavoriç who founded the Armenian Church as a derivative of Orthodoxy and to say 'Armenian equals Lusavorçagan'. 
This is valid to such a degree that Catholic and Protestant Armenians that broke away from this church were not regarded as Armenian for a long time and were externalized. 
But these externalizations were mostly at periods when there was no state and the Church stood in place of a state at the head of the nation and today no longer holds true. 
The current period where there is a state formation is the mark of a new beginning. In Armenia, which claims to be a democratic and secular republic,  freedom of religion is assured and whether the Church likes it or not, the Armenian identity will be subjected to new influences. 
The multitudes of belief systems and sects that proliferate in Armenia are the mark of these influences. 
One of these days, it should not be surprising that someone will be able to say 'I am Muslim but Armenian'. 
The needs of the current age dictate that such a person will also wish to integrate his particularity to the Armenian identity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Free smyrnan (talk • contribs) 23:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On the Armenian Identity (2)

message: by Hrant Dink, original at Agos
The 'Turk' of the Armenian
23 January 2004
In our age where global and universal values overwhelm local values, the Diaspora, leave alone living the cultural identity fully, has to make a special effort to keep the identity alive a little. 
This special effort always need special reasons and tools. 
The Armenians and Jews are two classical examples of Diasporas that have these special reasons. 
Both of them have the same special reason... To have been subjected to genocide. 
Therefore, the right that humanity gives them to preserve their identity should be a little discriminatory on the positive side. 
Truly, the Jews have used this positive right to full extent and made good use of the tolerance given to them for preserving their identity and transformed the title of 'God's chosen nation' that they have received from their religion to the title of 'Earth's chosen nation' that they have received from the world. 
But the same situation has not held true for the Armenian people. 
The world has withheld the sensitivity that it has shown to the Jewish Genocide from the Armenians and this has led to the greatest damage in the Armenian identity. 
'The Armenians whose rights have been trampled' have tried to live their identity through 'insistence on demanding the truth', and this has taken us to the point where this insistence has become the main axis of the Armenian identity. 
This insistence that was the method of continuing to stand, to not be wiped out for the first generations of the Diaspora, has turned into the insistence to make the world accept the truth for the third and fourth generations. 
The mental position of the Armenian Diaspora is this insistence, turned communal. 
The basic method of keeping alive the Armenian identity is to keep this mental position continuous. 
Letting aside that the world still has not accepted the truth, what really damages the Armenian identity is that Turks are not anywhere close to doing anything about this topic. 
When we do a comparison, it can be seen that the real reason behind Jews reaching their current levels is the compassionate role that the German people later took up after having genocided them rather than the Jews' own skill. 
With the apology of the Germans who have accepted the responsibility for the Genocide, this nation threw off the trauma that it lived, reached emotional health and only after that, could realize the potentials of its cultural identity. 
However, the traumatic illness of the Armenian nation still continues and what eats away and consumes the identity is this unhealthy emotional state. 
When analyzing the Armenian identity, it is necessary to acknowledge the role the concepts of 'Islam' and 'Turk' have played on this identity. 
After all, Armenians have shared a togetherness for over one thousand years with Islam and Turks. 
This is to such a degree that one important separation of Armenians from Western Christians is that they have lived with Muslims since ancient times. While Western Christians mostly lived Christian-to-Christian, Armenians have often been side by side and some times together with Muslims and have come to possess a different experience. 
As today's current debates keep on mentioning, while European Christians are newly adapting to a multi-cultural way of life that includes Muslims, Armenians, like other Christian peoples of the East (Assyrians, Chaldeans etc) have lived this reality, with its good and bad sides, for a long time. 
Therefore, it is obvious that this togetherness with Islam that has lasted for centuries will have its undeniable role in the shaping of the Armenian identity, but what really shapes Armenian identity's structure today and behaves as a cancerous tumor in the Armenian identity is the concept of the 'Turk'. 
The relationship between the Armenian and the Turk and their influences on one another are not of an ordinary level that can be brushed off with one or two words. There are so many identity elements that have been taken from one another over the course of centuries-long relations that it is impossible sometimes to tell one from the other in behavior patterns. 
The togetherness that had been lived is of such a deep level that to label the disruption of this togetherness as treason is an argument both sides make. Against the Turks, who once called the Armenians 'the faithful nation' and later claimed that they committed treason, Armenians don't simply call the events of 1915 a mass destruction of a people, but point out that it also involved treason against the centuries-long relationship. 
This is where the Turkish-Armenian relationship is here today: Armenians and Turks are both clinical cases in how they view each other. The Armenians with their traumas and the Turks with their paranoias. 
As long as they do not break free of the unhealthy state that they are in, -- maybe not so much for the Turks – but for Armenians, it seems impossible to re-shape their identity in a healthy manner. 
Especially as long as the Turks do not empathize in their views of 1915, the painful writhing of the Armenian identity will continue. 
To conclude, the 'Turk' is both the poison and the antidote of the Armenian identity. 
The real important problem is whether or not the Armenian can be free of the Turk within its identity. 
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Free smyrnan (talk • contribs) 21:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On the Armenian Identity (6) - The 'Turk' of the Armenian

message: by Hrant Dink, original at Agos
To break free of the 'Turk' (can also be translated as: To get rid of the 'Turk')
30 January 2004 
There are two visible ways for the Armenian identity to be free of the 'Turk'. The first is for Turkey (state and society) to enter an empathic attitude towards the Armenian nation and in the end, to demonstrate that it shares the pain of the Armenian nation. 
This attitude, if not immediately, can lead, in time to the 'Turk' element of the Armenian identity to be distanced. 
However, for now, it is a low probability that this will happen. 
The second way is for the Armenian himself to throw out the effect of the 'Turk' from his identity. 
Compared to the first, this second option has a higher probability since it is more dependent on just his (Armenian's) will and initiative. 
This is the way that should be taken. 
How the Armenian world can succeed in this is completely whether it can look at the current situation with a new understanding. 
For example, to look at 1915...
The Armenian world is aware of the truth of the historical drama it lived and this truth is not going to change with whether or not countries around the world or Turkey accept it today. Even if they do not, the conscience of the Armenian nation has already etched the name of what has happened. Therefore it cannot be the sole aim of the Armenian nation to wait for the rest of the world or for Turkey to accept this truth. 
The time is already past to leave everybody alone with their lack of a conscience. 
At the end of it, to accept this truth is everybody's own problem with their conscience. This conscience takes its base from our shared humanity – our 'human identity'. 
To leave the health of the Armenian identity indexed to whether or not the French, the German, the American and, always, the Turk accepts genocide is a mistake that the Armenian world must abandon. It is high time to move away from this mistake and to distance the 'Turk' from its prominent role in the Armenian identity. 
The many pains that the Armenian identity has suffered is enough, one should leave the pain from now to the so-called humanity. 
It is a colossal waste of time that simply postpones the awakening of the identity for the Armenian world, which has locked its peace with its identity to the negative and uncaring existence of the 'Turk', to dedicate the totality of its shared performance to applying pressure on the 'Turk' via the world and to make him accept genocide. 
The Armenian world should load the future of its identity with such concepts that have the drive to re-light the extinguished production capability of this nation. 
It should be the main directive to make an understanding that will 'shoulder its own pain and if necessary, carry it with pride until Armageddon' dominant in the Armenian identity. 
Otherwise, the Armenian world will have chained itself to the charity of others to accept the truth... 
And that will be true captivity.
Those who think that when the Armenian world frees itself from the 'Turk' it will find an emptiness in its identity and especially that the dissolution of the identity of the Diaspora Armenians will accelerate are wrong. 
There is a much more vital concept that will fill the emptiness left by the 'Turk' in the Armenian identity. 
This new excitement that did not exist fifteen years ago, is now a candidate for playing a major role in the Armenian identity, above and beyond all other influences and factors. 
For the Armenian world to index its future on the future well-being of this tiny country and the happiness of those living in it, will, at the same time, be a sign of the pains that disturb its identity. 
It is very simple for the Armenian identity to be free of the 'Turk': 
To not deal with the 'Turk'...
The new field where the Armenian identity will look for its new sentences is also ready: 
To deal with Armenia from now on. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Free smyrnan (talk • contribs) 23:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On the Armenian Identity (7) - To break free of the 'Turk'

message: by Hrant Dink, original at Agos
13 February 2004 
The clean blood that will replace the poisoned blood that will be let out from the 'Turk' exists in the noble vein that the Armenian will establish with Armenia. 
:Translator's notes: This is the infamous sentence. I feel it necessary to insert some notes right here. 
:This is a play on the ending sentence by Ataturk in his address to the youth, the text of which can be found here. Ataturk's address to the youth is learned by heart and analyzed to death in school. Whatever reaction this sentence standing alone would draw is probably tripled by reflex because it can also be understood as a direct attack on Ataturk, especially put in the context of 'Armenians tried to take away our country, Ataturk made this country possible, this man is mocking Ataturk's words by turning them upside down'. 
:One problem with the sentence is that it is way too vague. Another possible translation could be 'poisoned blood left by the Turk'. Yet another could be 'poisoned blood bled out of the Turk'. Yet another: 'poisoned blood emptied out of the Turk'. Add 3 letters and write boşaltılacak instead of boşalacak and you could get 'poisoned blood forcibly let out of the Turk'. 
:These explanations are not to detract from the brutality of what happened. However, I feel that the non-Turkish speakers should understand what an awkward and vague phrasing this is. 
If only its existence can be realized. (or less verbatim, If only its possibilities can be understood.)
Those truly responsible for this awareness are the leaders of Armenia rather than the Armenians dispersed in Diaspora. The main point is for Armenian governments to be aware of their responsibilities and to act accordingly. 
However, when we look at the relations between the Diaspora and Armenia, one can see that the Armenian governments are not yet fully aware of this responsibility. Aside from a  few fancy 'Pan-Armenian Gatherings', not even a functioning mechanism for 'meeting of Diaspora with Armenia' has been established. 
The relations between Armenia and the Diaspora have been done piecemeal, sometimes by the initiative of the Diaspora sometimes by the initiative of Armenia and an institutionalization centered more in Armenia has not appeared. 
Armenia should have, long ago, established a special and very powerful Ministry of the Diaspora. Through this ministry, how to embrace even a single Armenian who has been dispersed even to the remotest corners of the earth could be made a basic problem, and later be acted on, and projects could be developed accordingly. 
That this has not been done is a big mistake. With this uncaringness, Armenia itself is not aware what a major root it is, let alone make those in the Diaspora feel it. 
This shows that even though Armenia of course is worthy, Armenian governments are not yet worthy of the Diaspora. 
The one on one relationship that Armenia will establish with the individual of the Diaspora will, without doubt, have a major effect on the identity of the Diaspora Armenian and will play a major role in the new sentences of the identity. 
Today, the Armenian schools, language courses, social or cultural institutions, or all other collective acts serve the single purpose of carrying the Armenian identity to new generations and if possible to develop it. Towards this aim, millions of dollars are spent. In the end, what is realized, is a language that is known but not (able to be) spoken, and an identity that goes to church every once in a while and is content to do just that. 
But on the other side is such a reality that it is impossible to not do what it requires. 
And that is, that the most natural school is the moral dialogue that Armenia and the Diaspora will establish. 
It is very important for the identity of the youth of the Diaspora to go to that natural school called Armenia once even if he has not attended these schools or churches. 
Between the identity that a single visit to Armenia will give the youth of the Diaspora and the identity that decades of education and church establish, the former outweighs the latter. 
It is not that expensive to try to see whether or not what we suggest is true. A small amount of money can suffice for a youth to spend 15 days of summer vacation in Armenian streets. 
It will be seen how strongly, through the vein, the identity that such a youth receives within the space of 15-20 days spent in visiting Armenia even if he may have been rather distant from his Armenian identity previously. 
From that moment on, it is impossible for the youth to forget his identity no matter where he is in the world. 
That identity will have been pumped directly into his veins...
Therefore, organizing tours to Armenia for the youth is an identity forming activity of primary importance. These activities, no matter where, should always be given priority in annual programs. 
The sentences of the Armenian identity that will be directly gained from Armenia are so rich that they cannot be put into words. 
This situation is akin to a fragile pot-plant meeting its own soil, its own water, its own sun. 
It is free to try... Recommended to everybody. 
:And this concludes, for now, my small tribute to my dear compatriot. I need to go to sleep now, funeral tomorrow. May he rest in peace. --Free smyrnan 00:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On the Armenian Identity (8) – To meet Armenia

message: I find it disappointing that since Hrant Dink's assassination, I haven't seen any major coverage of the event in the United States national news.  Senator Hillary Clinton and President George W. Bush got most of the press today. -- Aivazovsky 02:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly the US media doesn't report on the murder of "foreigners" with "funny names" unless the US government is somehow responsible for the death. I'd hope 9/11 would wake us up to the idea that there is a wider world we should pay attention to, but it didn't.--T. Anthony 05:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't know about the USA but here in Canada, it's gotten a respectable amount of attention. They even showed the Armenian student protest in downtown Montreal today against the murder. It's also big news in the Middle East as it has been headlining Aljazeera for almost 2 days now. -- Fedayee 03:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its received extensive coverage in the Spanish El Pais, most notably an editorial  that I found very insightful (the title writes "Without recognizing our past, never we will be able to live the present").--MarshallBagramyan 03:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The assassination wasn't covered in the US News at all from what I could tell. Nothing in the San Diego papers at all. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well there were some American newspapers that mentioned it, I thought you meant TV news. At least the online sites of several newspapers mentioned it: San Francisco Chronicle, Los Angeles Times, The San Diego Union-Tribune, Houston Chronicle, Casper Star-Tribune, and a few others.--T. Anthony 10:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected; the San Diego U-T mentioned today in print about Dink's murder. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disappointing...

message: I have heard reports that he shouted 'i shot the infidel' or 'i shot the non-muslim' or 'i shot the Armenian'. Does anybody know which is true, as it is kinda important for determining the motive--Boris Johnson VC 12:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What did the gunman shout 

message: Reference on the trial which is translated as "poisoned blood associated with the Turk" is wrong, the origial term is "Türk’ten boşalacak o zehirli kanın yerini dolduracak temiz kan" which means literally "The noble blood which will take the place of the discharged(boşalmak) poisoned blood of the Turk"
http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=bo%FEalmak
Please login to listen pronunciation. Register now if you do not have an account.
1. empty. discharge. ejaculate. cum. cream. exhaust. drain away. drain off. teem.
2. come. ejaculate. empty. to be emptied. to be discharged. to uncoil. to become free. to become vacant. to get sth off one's chest. to ejaculate. to come off. to come. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.179.60 (talk) 16:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Vatan (see translation above by Free smyrnan, a Turkish user) it's "the poisoned blood left by the Turk." -- Aivazovsky 16:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why are you removing the rest of the sentence, the trial is about the sentence not a part of it.--Utku a 16:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't aware that we had the entire statement in there to begin with.  I have now added the whole statement as it appeared in Vatan. -- Aivazovsky 16:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, its better than my translation. I think he refers to the hatred of diaspora and critisize the manner of defining Armenian idendity using anti-Turkism as main reference, and thinks it is unhealthy for Armenians. But the sentense is really awkward. --Utku a 16:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is a better translation, please feel free to update it. I have to say, the Turkish sentence is awkward and is so allegorical that a literal translation is difficult to do. Perhaps something non-Turks may not be aware of: The sentence is also sort of a play on Ataturk's Address to the Youth, where Ataturk says "the strength that you will need [to protect the Republic] is available in the noble blood in your veins". Regards, --Free smyrnan 18:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation is wrong 

message: To stay and resist
But if we go, where then?
To Armenia?
But to what extent could a person like me tolarete the injustice as intolerant as I am at this issue? Wouldn't I find myself in greater troubles there?
To go and live in European countries wasn't my style either.
I know myself. After three days abroad, I miss my country. What should I do there?
Ease makes me uneasy!
To leave "boiling hells" and go to "ready heavens" was against my understanding.
We were sort of people desiring to turn hell to heaven.
To stay and live in Turkey was our real wish and and also a must of respect towards all of our known and unknown friends giving the struggle of democracy in Turkey and supporting us.
We would stay and resist.
However if someday we had to go, then we would go like in 1915... like our ancestors... Without knowing where to go.... Walking on the roads they had walked.... Feeling their pain and agony...
With such a reproach we would leave our country. And we would not go to the place of our heart but where our feet went. To whatever place it was. Fad (ix) 17:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry but what 'issue' are you talking about? He says "İyi de, gidersek nereye gidecektik?Ermenistan'a mı? Peki, benim gibi haksızlıklara dayanamayan biri oradaki haksızlıklara ne kadar katlanacaktı? Orada başım daha büyük belalara girmeyecek miydi?", which translates as "Good but where would we go? To Armenia? To what extent a man, as intolerant to injustice as me, would tolerate the injustices in Armenia? Wouldn't I be in more trouble there?" Okan 20:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not translate it, I just copy pasted it. Fad (ix) 23:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, can you all translate it? Fad (ix) 23:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to, but I'm currently about 450 km.s away from home. That means, I cannot spare much of time for the Internet. Besides, it's a very beautiful piece of writing, I doubt I could keep the sentimentality of it when translating to English. I feel terribly sad when I reach its lines about Hrant being a pigeon. Okan 18:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Question? Is the translation at Agos not sufficient and you would like another, independent translation? Please check this link: Agos --Free smyrnan 19:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unofficial translation of the article he wrote the day of his murder

message: Hrant Dink appears in an interview for about 1 minute in this 6 minute short film on YouTube.  I think it's worth a link on the External Links section.  Before this gets to 3RR, Baristarim, can you please explain why you are reverting inclusion of this interview?  Thanks.  (FYI he appears 1:35 to 2:08, and from 4:22 to 4:32) Serouj 21:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This video is a trailer from "Screamers" and I've quoted what he said in the video here in the article. It is located in the "Armenian issues" section. Here's the full screen version found in the "Screamers" website, if you want to replace it.   -- Davo88 21:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. Thanks Davo. Serouj 21:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) True, Davo88 added it early yesterday with the relevant quote and the reference to the video.. It is contextualized pretty well in that way with the part that refers to Dink and the relevant sub-section. Cheers! Baristarim 21:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Just to be clear, there is no specific restriction on youtube currently AFAIK. However we do not allow links to any external content which violates people's copyright. This applies to a lot of youtube content as such, you should take great care when linking to youtube content. Taking a look at the content myself, I would say linking to it is not okay. I doubt whoever released it has permission from the copyright holder. If it really is a trailer as mentioned above, you should try and find a proper source for it 203.109.240.93 11:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hrant Dink interview on YouTube 

message: In this site, it is claimed that he is killed by Islamists. Turkish media blames "ULUSALCI" people (nationalists) for the assasination. This people are generally not Islamists. But some of them support Turk-Islam synthesis. For example, killer of Abdi Ipekci is not Islamist but fascist. (Agca later announced that he was Jesus.)Paparokan
:You have the wrong belief. There is a branch of ultra-nationalists in Turkey who are also Islamist. Groups such as the Alperen Ocakları. These people aren't fond of Mustafa Kemal and secular democracy neither.--Doktor Gonzo 08:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamists? 

message: I removed the following from the See Also section of the article: 
* List of assassinated Turks
* Armenian Genocide
I did it because I don't wish to see this article devolve into a series of 'you did', 'no, you did' attacks. Links to both can be found from other see-also articles, if not, they should go there. Hrant Dink had absolutely nothing to do with assassination of Turkish diplomats. Please see the interview above for his feelings on that subject. 
For God's sake, he is not yet buried... Is it the time to start bickering? That is what I am afraid of. --Free smyrnan 08:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You obviously misinterpreted "assassinated Turks". Check out the page.--Doktor Gonzo 09:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I see now that the page is about assassinations in general. I thought it was a list of the Asala assassinations. Sorry. --Free smyrnan 09:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I think, for the part, "Türk'ten boşalacak zehirli kanın yerini dolduracak...", we should stick to Üstün Bilgen-Reinart's rendering, in the cited openDemocracy interview, that is, "associated with the Turk..."; and discuss the subtleties of the expression in a footnote. Because it's a more-than-one-way expression, it can mean "vacated by the Turk", "emptied by the Turk", "haemorrhaged by the Turk", and Reinart knew what she was doing by avoiding the danger of creativity in a translation. Cretanforever 09:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Şimdi bir daha görünce aklıma geldi, rahmetli çok arıza bir cümle kurmuş, ne yalan söyliyim. Bir cümlenin insanın hayatını bu kadar değiştirmesi bir Yunan yada Shakespeare tragedyası gibi.--Doktor Gonzo 09:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, let's use that. --Free smyrnan 09:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I disagree, the sentences meanings may be multiple, but all of them are sharp, this translation, "associated to" does not have any meaning at all, also the rest of the sentence is missing, I think it is a non objective softened on purpose kind definition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.214.190.149 (talk) 15:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Please revert the statement, "the clean blood that will fill up the place that will be emptied by the poisoned blood left by the Turk, is present in the noble vein of the Armenian that is possible by Armenia" is not equally or even closely have the same meaining as the current "replace the poisoned blood associated with the Turk, with fresh blood associated with Armenia", first of all the is a cencored version of the sentence, second, "associated" does not have any useful meaning, this is a multi-meanin sentence not a meaninless one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.214.190.149 (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  NB: The "poisoned blood" referred to here belongs to members of the Diaspora. It is 'poisoned' with 'the idea of Turk' as the enemy. What Dink suggests here is to prevent the feeling of enmity hinder the need of establishing direct links with Armenia. In other words, what should be done (by the Diaspora) is to cooperate with Armenia for the well being of the Armenia and Armenians, instead of fueling the tank of enmity against Turks. This is what he means in this sentence. At least the argument is explained this way in his interviews and in what he wrote after this sentence is decontextualized and converted to an 'insult' to 'Turkishness'. Of course there cannot be any excuse to such a stupid crime, but I have to say that this is one of the worst ways of communicating this argument in Turkish (really an "arıza cümle", to quote Dr. Gonzo). A reference made to Atatürk's "Address to the Youth" just for the sake of rhetoric. Pity. Okan 18:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of 2 see-also's 

message: What does it mean? 
"...was a Turkish-Armenian editor..." 81.215.110.49 20:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It means what Italian American means--Doktor Gonzo 20:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish-Armenian? 

message: I don't have much time to go over it now, so can someone please fix the wording for me (if needed), expand the funeral and reactions sections and also provide sources if possible.Ombudsee 14:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: About my last edit (including photos and a little bit more info about funeral demonstration)

message: What do the placards for Dink's funeral mean?  I can't read Turkish, unfortunately and the some of the sayings appear to be written in Kurdish and Armenian as well.  I know some Armenian and I've taken and initiative to learn the language (I'm studying Eastern Armenian as that's the dialect spoken in Armenia and Karabakh). Best, Aivazovsky 03:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: two of them says that "We are all Armenian" and "We are all Hrant Dink" in Turkish. One other -I believe- says "We are all Hrant" in Kurdish, but though I'm quite positive about it since I can't speak Kurdish I'm not sure about it. About the other one (Mek Plorys hay enk), I simply have no clue. If you do, would you please explain that for me? :) Ombudsee 07:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is Kurdish like Ombudsee said. The other is in fact Armenian transliterated into the Latin alphabet. Note the accented letter 'y' is a printing mistake which also appeared on several of the Kurdish signs at the march. This happens when there are computer encoding problems with the Turkish letter 'İ'. It would be nice if a correct Armenian sign could be found for this entry. Xemxi 08:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: "Menk poloris Hay enk" means "We are all Armenian" in Armenian language. Hevesli 16:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dink funeral placards

message: :According to eye witnesses, he was shot by a man of 25–30 years of age, who fired three shots at Dink's head from the back at point blank range before fleeing the scene on foot. According to the police, the assassin was a man of 18–19 years of age. Two men had been taken into custody in the first hours of the police investigation, but were later released.[7] Another witness, the owner of a restaurant near the Agos office, said the assassin looked about 20, wore jeans and a cap and shouted "I shot the infidel" as he left the scene [22] and Dink's close friend Orhan Alkaya stated that the three-shot assassination technique was a signature mark of the Turkish Hezbollah.
The assasination bit is a bit of a mess. For example, re the above it first says according to eyewitness he was shot by a man 25-30 as if it were definite (and we now know the person wasn't 25-30). Then it mentions the conflicting age the police reported (which is closer to the truth). THen it goes to talk about two men being take into custody and released. Then it talks about another witness with a different account of the age. The witnesses should be grouped together and probably then the police report and the people being taken into custody. Obviously this also needs to be done taking into account current circumstances 203.109.240.93 11:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Beware the troll :))) Baristarim 22:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bit of a mess 

message: I created this userbox for both Armenian and Turkish users in light of Hrant Dink's assassination:
 All the best, Aivazovsky 20:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Userbox for Armenian and Turkish users

message: I nominated the panorama on this page. (Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Hrant Dink's Funeral) Feel free to comment on it. And be frank, it's not that you're going to break my heart if you oppose :) Ombudsee 23:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just wonder where all of these people were when he was alive and being prosecuting for "insulting Turkishness" after he spoke about his Armenian identity (and how he doesn't consider himself a Turk, but an Armenian living in Turkey) and the Genocide.  It was this very same campaign of hate speech against him, initiated by the government and propagated by many nationalist media outlets, that led to his death.  Why didn't these crowds speak out then? Serouj 19:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They were always there and many did speak against it. It's just that you always hear howling of the nationalist more, and to admit they are always the better organized in such cases. Plus (I believe) half of the crowd there didn't know about Dink before he was assassinated. I'll blame the(our) populist media for that. He could have been alive now, only if people knew what he was facing. Instead of such cases newspapers publish pages-long essays about which celebrity screwed who, claiming that is what people want. It's sad that there's always that need for some blood shed before your voice is heard. Sad, but true. RegardsOmbudsee 19:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "It's sad that there's always that need for some blood shed before your voice is heard. Sad, but true."  Perhaps that's the reality in Turkey.  In most of the world, you don't need to die in order to live in dignity, to hold on to your ethnic identity, or to talk about your community's history.  Serouj 20:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you ever happened to hear about a guy called Martin Luther King?Ombudsee 20:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, in the 60s (good point, though, that's appreciated). Serouj 21:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Let us not use this page as a soapbox please. Hevesli 07:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My support! is there :-) Nareklm 16:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Featured! Thanks for all who supported! Ombudsee 17:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured picture nomination

message: It seems that the article has stabilized. Therefore I have submitted it to the WP:WPBIO project peer review. Let's see what they say and then we can perhaps take it to GA and FA? --Free smyrnan 09:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Passed WP:WPBIO assessment as B without any comments... Trying GA next. I'd like to have some good feedback hopefully, pointing out what is needed to make the article better. --Free smyrnan 23:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer Review