Talk:Zacarias Moussaoui/Archive 1

message: thanks for doing such a nice job on adding meat to this article :)
Kingturtle 04:36, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks

message: The article says:
:He is accused of being the "20th hijacker" and conspiring with Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida network to kill thousands of people.
He is no longer accused of this. [News24.com]
They also fail to mention in 1995 he was spotted in Israel at a convention with Mossad.  I believe this will clarify things for all of us.  
Washington Times 
September 10, 2001 
Section: A 
Edition: 2 
Page: A1 
Of the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, the SAMS officers say: "Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target U.S. forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act."
And, Moussaoui can speak perfect English with no accent.  Mossad agents can speak perfect English with no accent.  I believe we were attacked by Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.55.212 (talk • contribs) 
:Spectacular :)  Even by the standards of the internet, that's a wonderfully loopy line of argument.  "Bin Laden speaks English with an accent.  Ergo, men with accents are out to kill us all." :) :) Tpth 05:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Factual error

message: These areas have duplicated information.  They should somehow be merged or reorganized to avoid redundant information.198.207.168.65 19:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Court Proceedings and Death Penalty

message: Could someone add prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/280306_b_belt.htm this] and prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/290306Stunning.htm this]? --Striver 23:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't do it?  Something wrong with your mouse and keyboard?? Jeravicious 03:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Link

message: Zacarias Moussaoui Should be sent to the death penalty.  Who ever wishes horm on others should be put in jail.  there shouldnt be any talk about it put him in the death penalty.
::No. Don't give him the death penalty. That's the easy way out. One small injection and it's over. Let him suffer the many beatings and attacks from America, prisoners for the rest of his life. Death penalty will in his mind send him to heavan as he believes he's dying as a martyer. Let him suffer the indignation and humiliation and suffering of life in prison. That's much worse than the death penalty.
:::CNN already knows the lethal outcome of this trial: "The process won't begin until the Moussaoui jury returns its death penalty verdict" - says the last paragraph of the news article found here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/07/moussaoui/index.html
:::If this is not a prearranged trial, that what it is? Even news agencies know the result in advance! Bsuh's USA = Stalin's USSR 195.70.32.136 17:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zacarias Moussaoui 

message: Let’s get a permanent ban in place for IP 141.154.138.2. GJK 13:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do. Real contributors can still sign in.Dlohcierekim 01:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Permanent ban

message: Is America serious?
Lock this dangerous freak up to keep society safe, but he's committed no crime! Certainly no crime that justfies KILLING him! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.36.164 (talk • contribs) 
:Depends on who you ask. Ask me and I say fry him. Why ? Because my uncle worked there as a poor man washing toilets and bathrooms. What did he do to him? Nothing. He cleaned crap up off the floor and pee on the toilet seats. How much of a threat was he? At 67 he was a threat to no one yet Z.M. in his defiance to all said he would kill again and more American's. Second, I was there and watched both planes hit the towers. I even saw the second plane actually AIM for the tower. Z.M. claims he knew about the attacks and did nothing to stop them. That makes him just a worthless as the hijackers. Have you smelled death? Have you smelled burning flesh? Have you watched people jump to there death from 50 stories high because that was better then being burned alive? Probably not but I have, up close and personal. --Scott Grayban 11:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm unclear what ZM did to your uncle, other than soil his memory.  He's obviously scum, but we don't execute those who picket soldier's funerals with signs reading "GOD HATES FAGS" or "I CHEER WHEN AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE DEAD".  We hold them in disdain, we prosecute them for laws they did break, but I think an unfortunate part of society is that we have to deal with the scum, or else we enter a slippery slope Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 18:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I beleive the argument for it is guilty through affiliation, and seeing as he is supposidly guilty through affilation for the death of 3000+ people, the death penalty doesn't seem too far out for many people.  I'm not a lawyer, but I think that's what is going on. --Lewk_of_Serthic contrib talk 20:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My statement is not in revenge either, its called justice. And its not called murder when its done. Although I'm sure our way to put people like Z.M. to death is much nicer then the beheadings that American's got in Iraq so he should be happy. I'm sure the victim families would have other idea's for it. What get's me is how can such a man that believes in God say such terrible things? American's should bow before Muslism's? We should pay to live on earth? That's a pretty bold statement from a non-deity human. In life there is always a if. What if everyone's religion is wrong? What if the only true religion is not even the ones on earth? Maybe we missed it some place. All I know is I'll never tempt a God with saying such awefull things in plain fear because of the if. I treat everyone no matter who they are with the same respect I would want. Colour and religion mean nothing without respect for others. --Scott Grayban 13:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to play Advocatus Diaboli for a moment, we view ZM the exact same way those in Fallujah viewed US Contractors...as somebody who, even though he wasn't literally the one who killed those close to us, supported it and may have helped make it possible.  It is a blood debt.  This isn't to suggest I hold you in disdain, or am yelling at you, instead I wonder how I could politely suggest alternative viewpoints for you to consider - just as I think I'm able to understand yours.  I agree with your statement that Americans/anybody should not have to "Bow to Muslims", though I'm assuming you meant that figuratively, since no Muslim would ever demand to be bowed to in that fashion, as it would constitute shirk - similar to the First Commandment Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.  Secondly, I think your indignation at the concept of "paying to live on Earth" is justified, but only given your lack of knowledge - so I'd ask that you read through Jizya which is the description of that "tax".  One of the five pillars of Islam is Zakat, which is the exact same as the Christian concept of Tithing (Though it should be noted that tithing's "magic number" is 10%, while Zakat is 2.5%).  However, this meant that those living in countries where "Zakat" was common saw financial benefits to joining another religion, if 'Abdullah' became a Zoroastrian, he'd have more money for himself every year.  So to counter that, all Dhimmi (non-Muslims, basically) have to pay the same tax that Muslims do.  It should also be noticed then, that it exempted the Dhimmi from having to serve in a Muslim army - if they didn't believe in Mohammed, they didn't have to worship him, fight for him, they could do their own thing...they just still had to pay the same sort of "charity tax" as their Muslim counterparts. It's not a perfect explanation, but hopefully "it'll do" :) Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 18:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Now you want personal feelings to answer this? If you really want the average person to answer this don't get mad because the shoe fits this foot just like it fits yours. --Scott Grayban 16:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And read above "I am Muslim. I do not hate Muslims as a whole. What I hate are the idiots that take our faith and turn into a perverted act of murder and hide behind our Koran to justify there actions. That pisses me off as a Muslim. --Scott Grayban 11:57, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death penalty for lying? 

message: Why is the word "jihad" mentioned a whopping single time in this article? Is this another article that is trying to deceive people to believe that Islam had nothing to do with what this mujahideen planned to do?
::POV warning - What "this muja" planned to do was laughable, he makes [[Rudolf Hess|Hess]'s flight to Scotland look like the act of a sane man acting in concert with cohorts.  ZM is one pyschiatrist short of believing he is the next incarnation of Napoleon.
Jihad created in 1388 after the Crusades.  620th anniversary is in 2008.  We started invading the Middle east in 1988 on their 600th anniversary.
:::Really, to me it seems this man is very intelligent and a devout muslim. He is so smart that he is actively trying to pursue a death penalty instead of caving in to get his martyrdom.
::::The death penalty is his martyrdom, he wants to be killed "for his beliefs/actions" - people confess to crimes they didn't commit all the time, because they want history to remember them.  Zacarias is no different, except we're not sure whether he's after "being remembered" or "getting some virgins" to be blunt Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 15:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The jokes on him...God/Heaven don't even exist.  He's soon to be worm-food. Jeravicious 20:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Two things on your very dull comments. (1) No one knows for sure when he will die (may be you or me die tomorrow - earlier than him) (2) No one can prove existence of God using Maths or vice versa. (Hence may be joke happens with you).
I have to say, I think he shouldve been burned alive like all the people in the World Trade Center, The Pentagon and United 93. So why dont all of you disgustingly liberal Europeans worry about punishing your own terrorists and America will worry about punishing ours. Mac Domhnaill 21:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Except...the guy is French. So one could argue he is one of "ours". GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 09:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: America's legal system isn't very eye for an eye though so that is not likely to happen (expecailly since he has already been sentence).  Even though I may feel just that way as well, I don't support it because I feel a decent legal system and a good understanding of what is write and wrong is what makes us civilized.  I feel that Hammurabi's Code is somewhat outdated.--Lewk_of_Serthic contrib talk 21:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jihad

message: I read in the article saying moussai is evil but Wiki is not the place for that
71.85.6.211 20:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evil? 

message: How awesome is it that we can get news from wikipedia faster than from online news sources?? Taco325i 20:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, wiki means quick. :) --Lewk_of_Serthic contrib talk 21:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikifast 

message: Zac hasn't been SENTENCED to life yet - sentencing is done by the JUDGE, and will follow at a later hearing from the one where the jury gave its verdict.208.27.111.121 21:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error 

message: Eligible for parole in 2026? How credible is the source? - 71.126.167.86 01:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parole? 

message: Why did the jury reject death penalty, when he caused the death of so many others? They gave him life, great, now goverments and prisons get to pay for him to live when he shouldn't even.
::He did not do anything, since he was imprisoned at the time of 9/11 and to remain silent on any criminal info you know about but which may also put you in jeopardy is a protected right per the 5th amendment on self-incrimination. So there wasn't much case against him in the first place. Also he is a french citizen and execution would definitely hurt the relations with Paris. 195.70.32.136 07:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard people say that, but personally I don't beleive in martyrdom.  He may think he's getting the better end of the deal, but in my oppion, I'm getting the last laugh.  In this situation I can see both sides, but still side with one, it's interesting to think about though. --Lewk_of_Serthic contrib talk 20:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  how did he not get death? 

message: The Overview section is unnecessary.  It should be merged into the introduction, which, per style convention, could be up to three paragraphs.  As it is, it repeats much of the information from the introduction and is jarring for readers going straight through the article.--ragesoss 01:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: introduction and Overview

message: Why would they? --Shultz IV 03:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a huge cover up operation involving the World Government, Aliens and Al Gore. Thedonkey 04:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can we have a semi-lock on this article? It's being vandalized pretty heavily at the moment --KDLarsen 04:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It got hit by the same vandal that hit the FA.  It was necessary to clear the page history. Pepsidrinka took care of it for us. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 04:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found out that someone deleted it temporarily in order to remove an edit with an edit summary containing personal info. --Shultz IV 08:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ALERT! Someone deleted the article. 

message: Moussaoui made a pretty dramatic statement in open court on the reading of the jury's decision regarding life in prison. I'd think that someone should include it.
: I think its a good idea. Can you do it that yourself please?
THe statements msade in court regrading the "United States of Sodom" nd UNited States of Satan" do not get corrected they are the actual filings providxed by Moussaoui, the point of theis section is to demonstrate the state of mind fo moussaouui to prevent revisionism.Mrdthree 00:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statements Made in Court 

message: The Link referencing the "smoking gun" does not work. It should be deleted.
I replaced it with a FindLaw link. Findlaw has some different junk on it. Someone with some copy-edit skils needed.Mrdthree 22:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Link referencing the "smoking gun" does not work 

message: Please add a link to eo:Zacarias Moussaoui. Thanks! -- Yekrats 18:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please link to eo

message: While I would have preferred to see his head on a pike just wait till he gets to Florence. Buried alive in concrete and never seeing direct sunlight again. In a few decades he is really going to regret being such a murderous terrorist bastard. He will become a shell. Good.
23:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Life 

message: Many people have strong feelings about the subject; some are venting by vandalzing the article. Is this not the time for a temporary semi-protect?Dlohcierekim 01:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  semi protect? 

message: When the article becomes un-protected, please include a reference to http://notablecases.vaed.uscourts.gov/1:01-cr-00455/docs/72453/0.pdf -- his latest motion to withdraw his guilty plea.  (IIRC, it was denied by the judge.) Chip Unicorn 16:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind.  I am logged in, and I can add the information myself. Chip Unicorn 17:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A little too rhetorical to limit the affadavit statements to 11-14 rather than 10-15. I included 10 and the part of 15 that is not redundant with 10.Mrdthree 21:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Chip Unicorn 19:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New motion from Moussaoui 

message: "As first generation immigrants from Morocco, they frequently faced racism, including violence and theft"
:: I don't remember how to do the citation, but, like the one about his sporting interests, is from the book by Abd Samad Moussaoui.  Interestingly, references to this book have been removed from this article at some point - I don't have the time to work out when or by whom, but it should be reverted, as it is an important source on Moussaoui. Gwaka Lumpa 15:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  false accusations 

message: The following Washington Post story:  provides a source for the article's statement, "The foreman of the 12-person federal jury told The Washington Post that the panel voted 11-1, 10-2 and 10-2 in favor of the death penalty on the three charges for which Moussaoui was eligible for execution. A unanimous vote on any one of the three terrorism charges was required to return a death sentence."  I'd add it myself except the page is protected at the moment.  141.211.63.34 22:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation 

message: Will somebody who knows anything about this trial please provide a source for the following?
Carla Martin. Martin had sent e-mail to seven Federal Aviation Administration officials describing opening statements of the prosecution and commentary on government witnesses from the start of the testimony[citation needed], 
Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 04:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed. 

message: All right, I don't edit wikipedia that often so I don't feel comfortable doing this, but someone needs to clean up the despicable vandalism that is on this page and find the sick person responsible for doing it. All over the trial proceedings it refers to the US as the United States of Satan among several other obvious errors. Someone please take care of this- i can't believe someone would do this to the article regarding the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. --128.175.156.138 21:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, when I first read those parts about the Satan or Sodom I thought it was vandalism too, but those were Zacarias' actual words. - Fayenatic london (talk) 21:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi, not sure how far into the article you got, but Moussaoui was anything but the mastermind of the attacks - while he had (limited) contact with the hijackers, they largely viewed him as "too unpredictable/insane" to let in on their plot - and he instead tried to figure out his "own thing".  As per the comments, they are indeed Moussaoui's own terms, he was fond of his clever "wordplay" (not unlike the Zodiac Killer in that respect), often making his motions use the intials "UBL" or "WTC" to 'rub it in', in a sense. This is an example of one of his motions, per se. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  01:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: As I have been reading this article I have come across a lot of vandalism.  I have removed what I can see this time but this article needs protection from further acts of vandalism.TammiMagee 13:17, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the discussion above (#Vandalism).  Despite appearances, it's not vandalism; the deliberately offensive words are genuine extracts from court records. Just click the links in the references to see the originals.  - Fayenatic london (talk) 23:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs Protection