Talk:Muhammad Ali of Egypt

message: This article needs better disambiguation from Muhammad Ali than using an archaic spelling.  How about Muhammad Ali, pasha of Egypt like in  ?  ( 20:29, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of article 

message: I believe a page on the Dynasty of Muhammad Ali is needed.  There can be more information on the ethnic makeup, list of rulers, etc.  User:Imperial78:Imperial78
I'am a Turkish doctor whose family was born in the same city of Kavala, where Mohammad Ali was born. My grandmother was born in Drama; which includes atown called "Nusretli". Nusretli is the town where Mohammad Ali's first wife was born. In these cities, there were almost no albanians living during the Ottoman period. Almost all moslems living in these towns were Turkish in origin. Nusretli (a Turkish word) was a town composed of completely Turkish people (even no christians were living here). According to Ottoman sources, Mohammad Ali's ancestors migrated fom Konya to Edirne and finally to Kavala. Konya and Edirne are in Anatolia where no Albanians lived during the Ottoman period. According to many European sources, mainly European experts living with him, he always spoke Turkish. The names given to his children by Mohammad Ali were also in Turkish (they were not Arabic names): Tousoun (means "young bull" in Turkish) was the name of his son and Nazlı (means "delicate" in Turkish) was the name of her daughter. These names were never used by albanian people. Since he was an officer in an albanian brigade in the Ottoman army, it was misunderstood by many historians as he was Albanian origin. Princes Nabile Halim , one of his descendants who lived and died in İstanbul - Turkey, also wrote in her book that all of her family members and relatives spoke Turkish (not albanian or Arabic) at their homes until late 1950's.
I theink this error that he is Albanian in origin should be corrected in wikipedi.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.232.26 (talk) 11:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Muhammad Ali Dynasty Page Needed 

message: I've never seen anyone before claim that the official pretext for the 1831 invasion was protecting the Sublime Porte from Russia.  Is there a source to back this up?  I suppose stranger things have been said in the course of politics, but it seems more reasonable to think that Muhammad Ali started out by framing the invasion as a parochial quarrel between the pashaliks of Syria and Egypt.  Plus, Khaled Fahmy documents the pretext of conscript repatriation very well.  (See the citation for Fahmy 1997.)  Besides, how would the wali have claimed to be protecting the Sultan when he spent half a year besieging Acre? I'm interested to hear more. --Dgilman 04:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebellion against the Sultan 

message: There will always be debate on his precise ethnic origins, most sources state is was of Albanian origins.  The World Book Encyclopedia says Albanian.  Biographies on various members of the Egyptian Royal family list Albanian.  Also Prince Hassan Hassan's autobiography mentions Albanian.  These are all newer sources. Azalea pomp 06:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanian origins 

message: Those sources are mostly from the 1800s and my sources are more relevant as they are about members of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty also other encyclopedic articles located in World Book Encyclopedia list Albanian, not Greek Muslim. Azalea pomp 17:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have included new sources which directly address either Muhammad Ali or his dynasty.  You have included old sources which are not academic.  Also, I have mentioned that other encyclopedias list his ethnicity as Albanian.  You are violating policies as my sources are more reliable references.  Your sources are not directly about the Muhammad Ali dynasty so therefore they are not primary sources. Azalea pomp 19:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop Reverting 

message: I don't like to sterotype nor hate people from other countries.
What I have seen in Wikipedia is that most of the Greeks want to Hellenize all the famous people.When it comes to Muhammad Ali of Egypt there is more than enough sources to say that his parents wore Albanian so was he, I read that he spoke Albanian too but din't know how to writte.
BUT he fought, loved, dedicated all his life to Egypt so this is not an article for my  Albania nor for Greece.
Best of luck to all. 
p.s. Don't forget people that he spoke Albanian,he lead an Albanian contingent sent against Bonaparte in Egypt 1799,landed at Aboukir(14th July 1799).Depending at first on his Albanian force and other heterogeneous troops, his army invaded the Sudan
--Taulant23 22:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  If was for the Greeks even Clinton is Greek ;) 

message: "Though Muhammad Ali never learned Arabic,....." -- "The Rage of Nations: The World of the Twentieth Century", by Edward R. Kantowicz, p197. Kansas Bear (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did he know Arabic 

message: What is the best translation of wāli? The page has "governor," the dab page has "viceroy", or perhaps a third alternative? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: 'governor' is more accurate. Wāli means ruler. Here's a source: administrative officer , provincial governor , governor , chief , leader , ruler. Cheers, JaakobouChalk Talk 15:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  {Please see the current discussion at the Language Ref Desk, to which I've added the above response and all of which I'll paste here once the discussion has terminated.} -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wāli = viceroy, governor, or ? 

message: The page Khedive explains that this was a title for Muhammad Ali of Egypt, whose page doesn't include this at all! The Khedive page also goes on to include considerable content about his dynasty. Is a (partial) Merge indicated? -- Deborahjay (talk) 16:43, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The various articles on MA need a good sort out, which will probably entail mergers and spinoffs, I've started a centralised discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ottoman Empire#Ottoman Egypt needs attention, and invited discussion from WP Egypt. He was never officially a khedive, the title was first granted to his grandson, and they were not the only khedives, but are much the best known ones. Le Deluge (talk) 10:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khedive 

message: In the article both "Istanbul" and "Constantinople" is used to denote the same city. This usage is inconsistent and confusing. I think the only occurrence of "Istanbul" should be changed to "Constantinople", which is used in the rest of the article.
Guldue (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Best to be consistent with the name of the city in the time being discussed, and if at the time of the name change, to use each as appropriate with explanations.  Montanabw(talk) 18:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Istanbul or Constantinople? 

message: The link to Nazli Sabri under Consorts goes to the bio of a woman who was born after Mehmet Ali died and she therefore cannot be his consort.  The definition of consort is a spouse, as Prince Albert was Prince Consort of Queen Victoria.  Please move this link under Heirs if appropriate or put it somewhere else, find the article that should be linked to under consorts, and fix the link.
4.249.96.250 (talk) 20:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  not a consort 

message: I'm looking to develop List of monarchs of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty for a potential appearance on the Main Page on April Fools. I was wondering if anyone could help source the "champion of the people" line, as this would be of great help. Thanks in advance. —WFC—  18:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cite for "champion of the people" 

message: Here you can read in the Homepage of Prince Osman Rifat Ibrahim a member of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty that his Ancestors come from Turkey.
http://www.mohamedali.eu/mohamed_ali.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nalanidil (talk • contribs) 01:57, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish Ancestors 

message: In this article are two assertions made that I doubt and demand a proof resp. a realiable source for them:
* It is claimed that his wife, Emine Nusratli, was a wealthy widow of Ali Bey.
* It is claimed that Muhammad Ali Pasha is named Muhammad Ali Pasha al-Mas'ud ibn Agha. Muhammad Ali was born in Rumelia, spent his early life there, considered himself as Ottoman and spoke Turkish as mother-tongue. The elite in Egypt was of Ottoman tradition. Any form of Arabization began not before his death in latter half of 19th century. Also the name does not make any sense. Nasab and Nisbah are on wrong places. Nasab "ibn Agha" claims that his father was a guy named "Agha".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucius Castus (talk • contribs) 17:59, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you sign your contributions please? Indeed correctly it must be "ibn Ibrahim Agha", nevertheless that would be constructed. I want a proof for this way of naming. Regarding Ali Bey I will delete his mentioning. As person and as fact it is not relevant. --Lucius Castus (talk) 05:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubtful assertions that need review 

message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKI5zEpmE1o&t=1078s
15.50 in this video, Prince Abbas Hilmi clearly states that Muhammad Ali Pasha's father came to Kavala from Turkish city Konya. Also he says that Muhammad Ali Pasha's native language was Turkish and that almost all members of the dynasty can spoke Turkish. If his father came from Konya, how could he be Albanian? I demand that the ethnicity section be changed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnl0g 044 (talk • contribs) 22:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:   He was not an Albanian! 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: The very majority of sources on GB describe him as having Albanian origin. Based on that and WP:UNDUE, any proposal for change of wording should be carefully evaluated here. I will soon post a list of sources. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:00, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. Ahmet Q. (talk) 23:13, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Haldir is abusing bibliography. From the only non-Turkish source he cited, he used only a small part of a detailed examination of sources:
*Haldir's quote: 
*Chapter:  (..)  (..)  (..)  .--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

text: What you should take note of is that they are WP:UNDUE or WP:POV or WP:SELFPUBLISHED or don't support Haldir's claims. It's all part of modern narratives in Turkish politics related to claims about northern Africa. You'll find the same narratives about Turks in Libya etc. Haldir is claiming as Turkish, an individual and a dynasty which was never known as Turkish.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:08, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No Maleschreiber (by the way, WP:SELFPUBLISHED: one source and I stated clearly why I included it herein). This article is about Muhammad, not his dynasty, his descendants and the claims they made. The sources do support my statements, which in fact derive from the sources. It's not part of modern Turkish narrative (by the way, that doesn't even account for the Kurdish claim). Maybe that Muhammad, Barbarossa and many others were Albanian is part of modern Albanian narrative, let me say. You claim they were "never known as Turkish", I doubt it, but can you support this claim with some sources? Also, what does it even matter? Political moves? Let me say that's where the claim of Albanian heritage of the descendants probably comes from. Keeping in mind that we have no idea about Muhammad's origins (well, not considering the documents the Turkish Encyclopedia claims exist, reportedly proving his Anatolian descent), we must report other viewpoints because, after all, this is not an Albanian dictatorial Encyclopedia, but a free encyclopedia with a neutral pov. It is evidently your opinion that the dynasty and Muhammad are not of Turkish (and not Kurdish, I presume?) origin. Your opinion differs from that of multiple scholars. We saw that other viewpoints exist, why suppress them?--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 18:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Turkish Encyclopedia is WP:TERTIARY and not WP:RS. I've expanded some of the full quotes of sources you've used to highlight misquoting. As I haven't even reverted you, you shouldn't be asking consensus for your edits from me. You tried to add your edits and you were reverted by 3 different editors. The next step for you is to file a discussion at RfC.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, frankly, if I were you, I wouldn't be too enthusiast about bringing up the "reverted by 3 different editors" argument here, when the contribution logs in a number of articles in the Albania-topic area indicate that these 3 same editors are editing on the same articles to promote a pro-Albanian POV, is less of a coincidence than what the eye meets in Muhammad Ali's article. Right? An experienced editor of Wikipedia may recognize this pattern as being the definition of WP:TAGTEAMING. Due to this I strongly believe that closer admin/AE moderation may be required on the Albania topic area, just like in the Serbia and other Balkan topic areas. Also, in light of this issue, I have advised the editor Haldir Marchwarden to seek a third opinion elsewhere because it is clear that any different viewpoints that may contradict the pro-Albanian narrative aren't tolerated, despite the user providing reliable sources on the matter. Something which the editor agreed to do so. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:01, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: So for this guy, in English language "some" means "one"? Turkish Encyclopedia is not the heart of the matter and you know it. That is only about a piece of information (his place of birth and inaccuracies in the popular retelling ostensibly proved by documents they claim to have), it is hardly used to back the Kurdish and Turkish claims about his (ethnical) origin, for which we have multiple reliable sources. The quote you expanded is used to back the existence of a family tradition, not the personal opinion of the author (differing from that of many others). (beside what SilentResident said) The three different editors did not join the discussion beyond an initial comment. And in light of what SilentReader said maybe it's better if they don't at this point. I am requesting a third, independent opinion. Like Silent tried to explain to you, the RfC is usually about building up consensus, but here the core of the issue is WP:NPOV policy ("This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.").--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 10:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @Haldir Instead of relying on the opinions of one editor about what is "pro-Albanian" and what RFC is, it's better to read WP:RFC. Requests for comment (RfC) is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines or article content. Your edits were disputed by several editors. Some problems include misrepresentation of sources which is a far bigger issue than using self-published books. NPOV doesn't mean that all points of view should be included but that all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight should make it into an article. A full protection expires tomorrow and you should use this opportunity to start a debate per RFC and avoid edit-warring. Ahmet Q. (talk) 11:51, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't ping me correctly User. There is no "misrepresentation of sources" talking about Kurdish origin and the Kurd Muhammad Ali. There clearly is climbing on mirrors though. all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight: exactly, which is obviously the case, and the denial of which means there's something wrong. I thought it was a happenstance when I saw your buddy quickly removing the warning I put on you talk page (maybe it wasn't technically appropriate, but still). In my opinion, the only people warring here are those suppressing other viewpoints and not allowing me to expand the article. There's nothing to discuss about the inclusion of something backed by sources that objectively exist. I read your friend talking about Nikola Tesla and Sokullu. That's completely different, that's another planet. We are talking about people born in Yugoslavia speaking the Slavic language, born to people with Serb names and speaking the Serbian language. This is a man born in Greece, who never made statements about his origins, for which there is no evidence. All possible evidence is: a) family tradition about Kurdish origin b) Anatolian origin according to documents the Turkish Encyclopedia claim exist. But most importantly, the other viewpoints do exist, and they are held by many scholars, possibly as many (or not much less) as those copy-pasting the Albanian claim. What should be discussed is tag teaming and suppression of information, about forcing a certain viewpoint. But this is not the place. Hopefully someone will have a look into it though. EDIT: I didn't refrain from editing because of the block. I won't edit again until a third party like an admin looks into the matter and tells me to go on. So it doesn't matter to me if the block expires.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 17:26, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

text: EDIT2: Wow, I just realized the bullcr*p about his family being from Korça. Malschreiber wisely tried to take at least that one away. They fake sources like Kia [EDIT3= Kia wasn't actually "faked", but the way it is used, at the end of the sentence, it seems he supports the Albanian origins. In fact, like nearly all scholars, he makes clear that Muhammad Ali's origins are unknown, stating: Some have suggested that he was an ethnic Albanian. Though his ethnic origins remain uncertain, we know for certain that he was a Muslim], and tell sheer lies. Then (possibly others, I'm not saying it's the same) they climb on mirrors, while they say we need to "discuss" suppression of information with them. Surely, tag-teaming out the forced viewpoint wouldn't be that difficult in that case.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 18:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* أسرة محمد علي باشا.JPG
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: One user (me) has added content backed by sources about the origins of the subject, for which all agree there is no actual evidence (with the exception of a document located in Turkey, whose existence is disputed; and a tradition in the subject's family). At least two users oppose this addition because they say the sources are misused, unreliable, and self-published. They claim the first user (me) is "abusing bibliography". The first user (me) argues that it is not true that the sources are misused, unreliable, and self-published, that bibliography isn't being abused, and that all viewpoints whose existence is proven by multiple reliable sources must be included in the article, especially considering that the origins of the subject are unknown, and that he was born in a place different from the claimed ethnicities (Greece) and is chiefly important to yet another country (Egypt).--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 12:40, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Muhammad Ali was born and lived in a multi-ethnic Empire. Birthplace and region of activity is not related to ethnicity. I've written about the use of bibliography in the previous discussions. There are literally hundreds of sources which say that Muhammad Ali was Albanian because his ethnic background is historical fact which permeated the entire history of the dynasty he founded. It's not just that Muhammad Ali was Albanian: all of his descendants frequently referred to their ancestry. It's not that some sources say that they were Albanian, they themselves explicitly have maintained this tradition. His dynasty is the reason why Albanians in Egypt exist as a community because Albanians were singled out for tax exemptions and visa-free settling in Egypt. A few notes about Fuad I of Egypt(great-grandson of Muhammad Ali):
*History of the Coptic Orthodox People and the Church of Egypt: 
*Foundations of Modernity: Human Agency and the Imperial State In one of these internal Austro-Hungarian reports:  (Ottoman Refugees, 1878-1939: Migration in a Post-Imperial World)--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the above comment by , I've gone ahead and boldly removed the RfC template.  I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 23:44, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, I dream of horses. Much appreciated. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 00:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC  

message: Ethymology of Tosun is Turkic.Name of son of Albanian(?) Muhammad Ali Pahsa is Turkic origin.Why? 88.227.82.115 (talk) 17:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethymology of Tosun 

message: Could it be that most ancestors were Albanian, but a distant ancestor on the direct male line non-Albanian?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.144.246.39 (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another viewpoint on the concept of "origins". 

message: According to Albanians even jesus christ is albanian! Muhamed pasha was turkish with arabic origins even his name is arabic not albanian ! You can try and try to brainwash people minds but the turks are who invented the TAPI and they have the documents that shows his origins end his mather and father and grandmother and grandfather! 77.28.136.134 (talk) 09:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  His origins 

message: Title is self explanatory, being the only mention of Cyprus in the article I think my assessment is right. 82.31.223.152 (talk) 20:29, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  First paragraph says he controlled Cyprus when I think it means Crete 

message: I think his actual name was "Kavala Ali Pasha" he was from Ottoman Albania.
09:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  name