Talk:Southern Min

message: Hello, there's some controversy about the origin of the name saifun to refer to cellophane noodles.  It was earlier thought that this was a Japanese name (i.e. harusame saifun) but it now seems it might be related to the Mandarin "fen si."  Is it possible that "saifun" is a Min Nan pronunciation?  It doesn't seem to be Cantonese.  Thank you,  Badagnani 05:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cellophane noodles]] question 

message: Someone just added "(Hokkien)" after the name of the language in the box up top.  But if Chaozhou is a dialect of Min Nan and there are many variants and dialects, is it proper to put "Hokkien" (one particular form) as the alternate name of the language?  I don't think that's correct.  Badagnani 00:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually "Hokkien" is the more proper name for this language, or dialect if that is what you prefer. "Hokkien" is a Min nan word that has been in use for hundreds of years by native speakers in Southern Fujian, the motherland of Min nan, and by vast number of emigrants therefrom. "Min nan" is a relatively new Mandarin word coined by the ruling class Mandarin officials around fifty years ago. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.121.215.56 (talk • contribs) 
Hokkien is a term used by Malaysians, Singaporeans and Indonesians to describe Minnan. It is not used elsewhere. People in Taiwan use "Taiwanese" to describe their own variation of Min-nan. The proper name should always be Min-nan hua. Hokkien is the min-nan word for Fujian. This connotation is incorrect if it is only used to describe Min-nan because there is also Minbei (Hokchiu).--Visik 05:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 22:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hokkien 

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support as nominator. —  AjaxSmack   08:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Justification and motivation are correct pinyin usage.  The basics of pinyin rules on word formation can be found at Pinyin#Capitalization_.26_formation and more details are in the ABC Chinese-English Dictionary  by John DeFrancis and similar books.  In Chinese, 拼音化问题 by 周有光 covers this.  As seen in the examples above, all other geographical terms follow the one word format (e.g., Beijing, not Bei Jing, Jiangnan, not Jiang Nan).  The Chinese government's official English website uses Minbei and Minnan (here).   I am interested in justication and motivation for opposition to the move.   —  AjaxSmack   07:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Dear A-cai,
You provided the POJ for the Voyager Amoy clip as: "Ū-êng, to̍h lâi gún chia chē ô·!" However, on [], Heruler gives "Ū êng, tióh lâi gún chia chē!"
Did you mean to use "tioh" instead of "toh"? Tøsia! Oniows 01:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for not responding sooner, I don't check this page as often as I should.  There are some minor spelling and pronunciation differences in the Amoy dialect.  This is an example of such a difference.  The two words to̍h and tio̍h actually are the same word, but based on different accents.  To the best of my knowledge tio̍h is based on the Quanzhou accent, whereas to̍h is based on the Zhangzhou accent.  In Xiamen, both pronunciations seem to be interchangeable.  To me, the voice on the recording is too slurred at that point to say definitively, but it sounds like to̍h rather than tio̍h to me.  The person at the above website does not appear to be overly concerned with absolute faithfulness to the pronunciation on the original recording.  For example, he spells chia̍h-pá bē (Xiamen accent) as chiáh pá bōe (Zhangzhou accent).  It means the same thing, but it is not what the voice on the recording says.  The recording clearly says bē, which makes sense, because both gún (we) and bē (question particle) are based on the Xiamen accent.  If it were bōe, the person would have more likely pronounced we as góan.  However, since Min Nan is not my native language, I would love to hear the opinion of a native speaker (especially someone from the Xiamen area).  I hope this response was not too long winded.  -- A-cai 13:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voyager Amoy clip 

message: I think we should consider reorganizing the pages related to Min Nan.  In my opinion, the Min Nan article should describe the Min Nan family of languages:
* Min Nan family
# Amoy (linguistics)
#* Quanzhou (linguistics), Xiamen (linguistics), Zhangzhou (linguistics), Taiwanese (linguistics), Singapore Hokkien
# Southern Zhejiang
#* I'm not as familiar with these.
# Chaoshan
#* Teochew (dialect), Swatow etc.
# Hainan
#* Qiongwen
The numbered items each represent mutually unintelligible branches in the Min Nan family tree.  The bullets underneath each number represent the various mutually intelligible accents that belong to that branch (not comprehensive).  Part of the problem is that Min Nan is colloquially associated with Xiamen speech or Taiwanese (which are mutually intelligible).  This is similar to how Chinese is colloquially associated with Standard Mandarin, despite the fact that it really represents a family (ex. Sinitic) of mutually unintelligible families (ex. Min) of mutually unintelligible families (ex. Min Nan) of languages/dialects!  I think the articles we have now should stay, but should be more narrowly focused on their topic.  For example the Taiwanese article should not spend time on basics common to all Amoy speech forms, such as orthography, tones and grammar (except to the extent that these things vary from Quanzhou, Xiamen, and Zhangzhou speech).  To use English as an analogy:
* Germanic family
# German language
#* whatever
# English language
#* British English, American English, Australian English etc.
Including the grammar explanations in the Taiwanese article, but not in the Xiamen (linguistics) article (which does not exist), or in the Amoy (linguistics) article, would be akin to including a grammar section in the American English, but not in the British English article (which would not exist in our scenario), or in the English article (which would redirect to Germanic in our scenario).  One problem is that we do not have a standard term that everyone can agree upon for the language which is spoken in Quanzhou, Xiamen, Zhangzhou and Taiwan.  Min Nan is popularly used, but is also a family of mutually unintelligible languages/dialects.  In summary, I think we need separate articles, but I'm not sure what to call them.  The following are mutually intelligible: Quanzhou, Xiamen, Zhangzhou, Taiwanese.  Each should be treated in a separate article.  My vote would be to put most of the basic information about the language (Quanzhou, Xiamen, Zhangzhou, Taiwanese --- not Teochew (dialect), Qiongwen etc.) in a single article (not Min Nan).  You could call it Amoy (linguistics).  Quanzhou (linguistics), Xiamen (linguistics), Zhangzhou (linguistics), and Taiwanese (linguistics) would only contain information that is unique to those areas.  At some point, I would like to work on the above, but am curious if there are any opinions about my proposal. -- A-cai 13:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do we need new pages? 

message: Why isn't Teochew in the Template:Chinese language? Badagnani 09:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teochew 

message: Need Hokkien name at Pork ball. Badagnani (talk) 04:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Hokkien at [[Pork ball]] 

message: Hi can someone tell me what 0-10,11,12,20,100,110,1000,10 thousand and the article for two+Noun (eg. 'liang ge' in Mandarin) in the Hainanese dialect is? I am trying to learn Hainanese and I need to pronounce the numbers correctly. Or alternatively someone could just kindly tell me on this discussion page and reply to me with the proper pronunciation of the numbers above.
Also, I am confused about the number of tones in Hainanese. I person from a chinese languages forum sent me information stating that Hainanese has 8 tones. But a video teaching Hainanese on Youtube explains there are six tones. Are these just different varieties of Hainanese or what? Can someone tell me the tones of Hainanese, thanks. Vlag (talk) 11:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Counting Numbers and Tones in Hainanese (Qiongwen) 

message: Need Min Nan spelling (in Chinese characters) and pronunciation of Cellophane noodles in the language box at Cellophane noodles. If there is more than one name, add all of them. Thank you, Badagnani (talk) 18:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Min Nan 

message: Is it possible to get a map of the area(s) that Minnan is spoken? Could this be a standard feature in language articles? It would be a great help to those of us who are geographically challenged. Thank you 60.229.21.67 (talk) 04:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map? 

message: Why was this moved from Min Nan to "Southern Min Language" and where is the discussion and consensus that led to this move? Is "Southern Min Language" more commonly used in English to refer to this language than "Min Nan"? Badagnani (talk) 21:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: Need Min Nan name for Cellophane noodles. Badagnani (talk) 00:06, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Need Min Nan

message: Please leave comments at .
122.109.171.138 (talk) 04:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for new Hanji-based Southern Min Wikipedia 

message: Can someone check the POJ in the lead of Wu Chuanyu? Badagnani (talk) 21:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "吳" is pronounced as "Ngô͘" instead of "Gô͘" when it is used as a family name. (I'm not very sure) luuva  (talk) 05:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I am not very sure, because my Min Nan is just one tone which is spoken in Taiwan. And yes, the tiny dot is a part of the romanization. luuva  (talk) 05:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I speak Amoy (Xiamen). "吳" is pronounced as "Ngô͘" in Amoy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daamoy (talk • contribs) 03:41, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I think I will read it as "Ngô· Thôan Gio̍k", just like what you wrote. luuva  (talk) 05:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: POJ needs to be checked

message: Need POJ reading at Sean Lien. Badagnani (talk) 06:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Need POJ

message: Shouldn't this article talk of "Southern Min languages" rather a "Southern Min language" as in reality Southern Min can be divided into at least three largely mutually unintelligible languages - 1. Teochew 2. Hainanese 3. Hokkien.
I suggest the name Hokkien for the group of mutually intelligible dialects of Amoy, Taiwan, Choan-chiu, and Chang-chiu as this is the only name frequently used in English. It is also a name used by many native speakers (esp. in S.E. Asia) and the language is frequently known by a derived term (Hok-lo/Ho-lo) in Taiwan. There may be some variations in the name for the language amongst native speakers, but "Hokkien" is very much the established term in the English speaking world - "Mandarin" and "Cantonese" are similar examples of established English terms for Chinese languages.
It would probably make sense to create an article for "Hokkien" from which there would be links to Amoy and Taiwanese (and articles for any of its other dialects that may be created).   
Vox latina (talk) 08:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming of Southern Min and its divisions 

message: Need Min Nan name at Dried shrimp. Badagnani (talk) 00:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Min Nan 

message: Need Min Nan name in the box at Kowtow. Badagnani (talk) 18:32, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Min Nan 

message: Need POJ reading at Sean Lien. Badagnani (talk) 20:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need POJ 

message: Also need POJ for 鸭母哒仔 and 鴨母笛 at Guan (instrument). Thank you, Badagnani (talk) 20:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Need POJ

message: Hello there... I favour putting the transliterations box on top (small, collapsable)... is there any policy that stipulates it should go bellow the non collapsable linguistics box? Gumuhua (talk) 19:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transliterations box goes on top... 

message: Need Min Nan hanzi at Kaffir lime. Badagnani (talk) 04:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Min Nan hanzi 

message: Need POJ for 樹子仔 and 樹子 at Cordia. Badagnani (talk) 10:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Need POJ

message: Timely attention to requests for POJ on this page would be greatlly appreciated. Badagnani (talk) 10:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Attention to requests on this page

message: There is currently a request to split Minnan into eight different divisions and assign new ISO 693-3 codes to them.
You can voice your opinion here. --Jose77 (talk) 08:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to recognize all varieties of the Southern Min language 

message: Hi, I would like to know if I was going to cite this webpage, how should I do so?
Thanks.
Kuromiwu (talk) 09:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to cite? 

message: * 李白 月下獨酌 中古漢語朗讀
* 李白 將進酒 中古漢語朗讀
* 李白 靜夜思 中古漢語朗讀
* 杜甫 佳人 中古漢語朗讀
* 崔顥 黃鶴樓 中古漢語朗讀
* 李白 清平調 lix brak, chieng bieng deuh
 Arilang   talk 12:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Video for discussion

message: At the moment there is a reference to a study that claims that the /n/ final was lost in Min Nan. Of course there are lots of straight counterexamples （e.g. 新聞); so there must be some form of clarification, for example the context of the study (is it only one of the substrata where the loss has taken place, thus excluding loanwords from the 唐 stratum or perhaps 宋). Michael Ly (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Min Nan Phonology: Nasal Finals 

message: New History section added as many other non-Chinese linguistic pages have a history section.
Bkjalng (talk) 05:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: As the article notes, the standard classifications do not include Puxian within Southern Min.  The article claims that Western linguists hold a different view, but this does not seem to be the case.  Kanguole 13:35, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puxian 

message: Hoklo is not an ethnicity, so the fact that some non-Hoklo speak Southern Min and that some Hoklo don't speak it is complete nonsense. Moreover, the grammar needs to be revised. Some claims probably don't refer to Southern Min, but Min in general. Even people in Northern Fujian don't speak Southern Min. Why should people from Zhejiang suddenly speak it? --88.67.116.234 (talk) 11:53, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Zhejiang does have Min varieties, and there are "dialect islands" of Southern Min there in the southernmost tip of Zhejiang. Baidu has further detail, but in essence it is closer to Southern Min than to Eastern Min. The reason that this dialect exists is due to migration of Southern Min speakers in the Ming and Qing dynasties. Apparently the tonal system is most similar to the Quanzhou dialect, though there are some phonological differences (mainly in consonants). Michael Ly (talk) 21:01, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoklo ethnicity and other problems 

message: The subgrouping in this article has been recently re-organized in a novel way around a notion of "Minnan Proper", which does not seem to appear in the literature.  The Chinese form given (闽南话) is just Southern Min again.  The subgrouping should be returned to that of the Language Atlas of China, which is commonly used as a framework.  Kanguole 10:23, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subgrouping 

message: Please see Talk:Hokkien#Quanzhang confusion, about resolving a conflict between these two articles and being certain where Quanzhang (a redlink as of this writing) should take the reader.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  21:41, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quanzhang confusion 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Hoklo Boat. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:41, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hoklo Boat" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]