Talk:Montenegrin language/Archive 1

message: Vote here for Move:
*Support. Reasons are obvious, it's not a language until it gains an international status like one. HolyRomanEmperor 17:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You have my sympathy. If the movers were not arguing that this is a dialect of "Serbian", I might have expressed a different opinion....Septentrionalis 22:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Me too, I'd prefer they just called it something neutral like Balkanian. But denying one won't make the others "re-merge" :/ - FrancisTyers 13:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the term "Shtokavian based (standard) languages" or even "Neo-Shtokavian based (standard) languages" because all of the languages are Neo-Shtokavian based. Through some time I would make some action to implement that because at least Croatian and Serbian communities support such term. For example, there is a sense to describe the basic language structure of all languages at one place, but not to be offensive toward Bosniak, Croatian and Serbian communities. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 15:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Croatian standard language is fully Shtokavian based and this is the fact which is known to all educated Croats. Kaykavian and Chakavian are Croatian dialects without significant influence into standard language. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 14:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move vote 

message: Look at this. Someone, while finding information for article "Montenegrin language" on Uncyclopedia, searched the Montenegrin Internet using Google, looking for examples from this article: Montenegrin vs Serbian and Montenegrin vs Serbian. I think this is telling enough about "Montenegrin" and about accuracy of this silly Wikipedia article. --Djordje D. Bozovic 16:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Google search 

message: Most of the Montenegrins in the west of Kosovo speek this language they are not like the serb they are somthing els, from the cultur and life. --Hipi Zhdripi 23:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Montenegrin language in Kosovo 

message: I cant believe that this have its own article.....Crnogorski jezik hahahahahahahahah damn this is soooo stupidDzoni 17:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I CANT BELIEVE 

message: The Indonesian article mentions it is a standarized version of a dialect of Malay yet it is still considered a seperate language, by that standard Montegrin is a seperate language, but I'm wondering if there is a difference between the standard, the political, and the linguistic definitions of a language and whether it should be said that it may qualify as a seperate language in one or more of those categories but not in the others.
: The difference is that there are two dialects of Serbian spoken in teritory of Montenegro, and that there is no standard for Montenegrin, yet, as no body of authority has not yet published Montenegrin standard, or vocabulary or grammar.
:Sign your comments!--RockyMM 12:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was no consensus. —Nightstallion (?) 09:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indonesian comparison 

message: Hehe. Montenegrin is a language, Boris. How many time do I have to tell you that. Personally Boris, what the hell is wrong with you? Didn't you ever read http://www.montenegro.org/language.html ? It'll show you that YOU ARE WRONG AND I WAS RIGHT!!! Look, the language was once a language but then Serbs (actually Vuk Stefanović Karadžić) changed it so it can match their own language, and other similar South Slavic languages. Even the alphabet was changed so it wouldn't include the old Montenegin letters: Ś, Ź, and 3. And if you've ever heard an old person speak Montenegrin (the old language before its reform), you'd see that it sounds different from Serbian, but I really doubt that many who still speak Montenegrin. Look Boris, I know more about Montenegro and everything about it than you do. So face it. Montenegrin was once a language and will be again when Montenegro proclaims it as their official language, which should be sometime either this year or early next year.   Crna Gora (Talk/Contribs/Edit Count) 23:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One last thing, I'M AGAINST THE MOVE!!!!!!! (as stated above)   Crna Gora (Talk/Contribs/Edit Count) 23:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The page you mentioned proves nothing. There are no written proofs of Montenegrin nor anybody mentioned an adjective Montenegrin in sence of a language EVER before 20th century. Any selfrespecting philologist would tell you that. Even if that is not good enough for you, same that "Montenegrin language" was spoken in Sandzak, and nobody from Sandzak would call himself a Montenegrin. Same language. Completly same. Peroid. Then again, if that is the decision of the Montenegrin people, they can call language they speak any way they like, as soon some body of authority publishes some work on it.--RockyMM 10:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The language 

message: It says over 22% when it should be below 22%. The full-scale figure's 21.53%, so... I guess that there was a bad calculation - it's less, not more. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The census was 3 years ago — if we could count it now, I'm positive that the percentage would be much closer, if not over, 50%. Duja 15:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong 

message: Um. Is that Cyrillic ZE being used for [dz] or is it EZH? Because if it's the latter, there's going to be trouble in Unicodeland. Evertype 23:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [dz] 

message: If it is said that Vuk Karadzic wrote down the Serbian language, yet he comes from Montenegro doesn't it mean then Serbian is the same thing as Montenegrin and that calling the languages separate just like Bosnian and Croatian is just a political ploy by the ruling governments.  I believe that all the languages are the same and should be classified as the same thing.  The difference between Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Montenegrin is the same as the difference in the English dialects between people from England, The Midwest of America, The East Coast of America, and the American South...its all English just this is all the same. --Happyman22 17:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I don't get it 

message: Someone is trying really, really hard to show how the mentioned characteristics are used in other areas of former Yugoslavia. Noone is trying to deny that, however, that is not what the topic is about. The topic is about the Montenegrin language and its characteristics. So, please keep to the topic. BTW, noone is trying to invent a separate new language. Montenegrin is a new standard, not a new language. As far as I am concerned "Serbian", "Croatian", "Bosnian" and "Montenegrin" have different meaning as adjectives only as different standards of the same language. They are synonyms if they refer to the language (Serbo-Croatian that is), so cool down a little and try to contribute to the knowledge base instead of cheap politics. Regards, Momisan 13:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, your original sentence read "the distinctive characteristics are"... and not all of them were trully distinctive. What is really unique is the Zetan accent (not yet documented with details), ka:, and the sounds. Besides, we were talking about the dialect(s) it was based on, and their characteristics are, as with other dialects, more unique or more shared, from case to case. I'd just assume good faith in this case. Once the language gets a standard, perhaps something more distinctive can be written (but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball). Duja 18:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also assuming good faith. OK, as I understand the topic, the language spoken in Montenegro needs to be described. I'll use mathematical analogy (not really accurate but its close enough), as I believe you should be able to handle it: Think of a whole set of Sthokavian (and some Chakavian) characteristics as 3D space and the language in Montenegro as a 2D plane. It is the combination of characteristics that is unique, although a single characteristic might be shared with another dialect. So, lets enumerate them and see what comes out of it. I believe it is closer to the mark than a sweeping statement like "almost all other Serbian and Croatian dialects have it", which doesn't help anyone. Just to touch on the term "distinctive", which obviously wasn't that important as I didn't complain when it was removed, my understanding is that "distinctive" and "unique" are not synonyms, but, let's not get hung up on that.Finally, the term "Montenegrin" language, which is to some like putting a red flag in front of a bull, for now is simply a language spoken in Montenegro. No it doesn't have a standard, so what? Branko Radicevic didn't need a standard to write in Serbian in 19th century, did he? Regards, Momisan 07:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just took a closer look at anon's edits. Yes, you're right—while it should be mentioned where the feature is also encountered, it is also POV to insert "like in (pretty much every) neighboring dialect". There's no need for exaggeration. Duja 09:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have nothing against mentioning where else is the feature encountered as long as the information is precise (for example: "shto can also be heard in standard Croatian and x,y,z dialects, or around such and such city"). As long as it is in good faith, it is OK.Momisan 12:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Montenegrin Language Characteristics 

message: I'd say that the more appropriate term would be a "variant" or "variety" of Serbian language (for those who think so). Dialect is not a sociolinguistic concept. It refers mainly to various vernaculars and idioms. Mir Harven 11:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology