Talk:Mali Empire

message: They used cupellation, which present-day chemists still use for fire assay. Here's a write-up of how archaeologists reconstructed their metallurgical technique:
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-african-gold
I'll digest it & add something to the article in due time. --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: From cupellation: "Small-scale cupellation may be considered the most important fire assay developed in history, and perhaps the origin of chemical analysis". Whoa! --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gold refining in medieval Mali 

message: As far as I can tell, the location and name of the capital of the Mali Empire is not agreed upon. Some recent sources appear to be of the opinion that Niani definitively was not the capital of Mali, except possibly briefly long after its glory days. In my opinion it would be prudent to have a section of this article that discusses the debate over the identity of the capital(s) of the Mali Empire. Ornithopsis (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Where appropriate, I think it would be a good idea to replace "Niani" with "the capital" if the context in the source justifies it. I think that adding a section that clarifies the situation with the capital is a good idea even if we can't clear out every stray reference to Niani, though—best not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm reluctant to write the section myself because history is not my main area of knowledge and I am not familiar with the original evidence that led to the hypothesis that Niani was the capital, but I can give it a shot if need be. On a tangentially related note, I think the article needs some cleanup so that the history of the empire is all under a single top-level section like other articles, rather than a separate top-level section for nearly every paragraph. Ornithopsis (talk) 04:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. I'm happy to write the section - I read those papers I referred to above, and will do some more research to round it out. I can do the cleanup of the layout too, but go for it if you'd rather. Catjacket (talk) 09:01, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll clean up the layout the best I can; feel free to modify it if you disagree with my decisions. I think the section on the location of the capital should go in the "Geography" section, once I add that heading. A couple of other papers relevant to the capital issue I've encountered:  . Ornithopsis (talk) 23:26, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm having trouble accessing online versions of those two articles you shared. Do you have access through an institution? Catjacket (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have institutional access but I managed to acquire copies with some help. Haour 2005 only mentions the issue of the capital of Mali tangentially—it doesn't offer a lot of information on the question not also in Conrad 1994. Fauvelle 2018 offered more information, but I just found another article by Fauvelle that looks like it contains the most important parts mentioned in Fauvelle 2018 and then some: . I haven't read it yet but based on the title and abstract this looks extremely useful to us. Ornithopsis (talk) 18:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Pleasure working with you, my friend. Catjacket (talk) 19:50, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, that looks great! Ornithopsis (talk) 04:53, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identity of the capital 

message: I don't know Mali's history but "constitutional monarchy" seems VERY unlikely to me Braganza (talk) 17:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Constitutional monarchy 

message: I reorganized the page to better match the format used in Featured Articles on medieval states. I have neither the time nor expertise to do a great job on any of these on my own, but I think there are several sections that could be added, and I've noted locations I think sections should be added with comments in the article. The Culture section needs expansion in particular—at minimum there should be subsections on religion and jeliw, I think. I think there could also be a section on the legacy of the Mali Empire at the end, as exists for several other articles on notable civilizations (e.g. Byzantine Empire). Ornithopsis (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I just did some reorganization, particularly in the early history part, but also in economy and government to try and streamline the categories and whatnot, make the table of contents more sensible, and generally clean up repetitive or clumsy phrasing. I moved a lot of the early history to the dedicated Pre-Imperial Mali page, since if we have it may as well use it and avoid cluttering the main page with detail that can remain accessible elsewhere. Open to feedback and happy to make adjustments as necessary. Catjacket (talk) 23:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization and suggestion of new sections 

message: I think that a section about the manuscripts should be added in the main article and the stuff about them should be moved there. 68.37.205.126 (talk) 12:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean that you think that there should be a section of the article that talks about the sources for the history of the Mali Empire such as al-Umari, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Battuta, and the Tarikhs? Ornithopsis (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manuscript section please 

message: I have removed the references to the empire being called Manden Kurufaba, as I suspect we may be dealing with a case of wikiality. This topic was previously brought up on the talk page all the way back in 2013, but satisfactory evidence was not given to support the term. The page was edited to call it Manden Kurufa in 2007  and Manden Kurufaba in 2012 . The cited source for the term (Piga 2003) does not actually use it, though it does contain the word "kurufaba" as a translation of "confederation":
 
I can't read French, so I'm not even sure if these statements are specifically about the Mali Empire or are more generally referring to the concept of confederations, but it's clear that at most they indicate that the Mali Empire was called a kurufaba. This is not enough to indicate its official name was Manden Kurufaba. For an analogy, the United States of America is a republic and a federation, but its name is not the Republic of America or American Federation.  There are virtually no results on Google or Google Scholar for either term prior to their addition to Wikipedia; pretty much every Google Scholar result for the term turns up text similar to Piga 2003, which do not support the name of the empire being Manden Kurufaba. One  suggests that the term "kurufaba" may be a neologism devised by Solomana Kante. Suffice to say, there is inadequate evidence for the term Manden Kurufaba, and I think the term should be removed until a source that satisfactorily demonstrates its validity (and that can be trusted to not be just quoting Wikipedia) can be found. Ornithopsis (talk) 06:41, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manden Kurufaba 

message: I would like to draw attention to some problems regarding the identities of the mansas "Musa III", "Uli II", "Mahmud II", and "Mahmud III". The existence of mansas of these names seems to be yet another example of Delafosse's speculation being treated as historical fact. It is known from João de Barros that the Portuguese sent emissaries to the mansa of Mali late in João II's reign (c. 1490–1495) and in 1534, and that both of these mansas had the same name, but their name is not directly mentioned. Separately in Barros's account, he mentions emissaries being sent to someone called "Mahamed bem Manzugul, grandson of Mussa, king of Songo," which is "one of the most populous cities of...Mandinga," during the reign of João II. Delafosse thought this was the mansa of Mali, and suggested that "Manzugul" should be read as "Mansa Uli", thereby concluding that the two mansas contacted by the Portuguese were both named Mahmud, and that the earlier Mahmud was preceded by his father Uli and grandfather Musa. However, as discussed by Masonen (2000), it is not altogether clear that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a mansa of Mali, and indeed there seems to be good reason to think he was not. Several possibilities have been suggested over the years; Barth was under the impression that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a nephew of Askia Musa (perhaps confusing Portuguese neto "grandson" with German Neffe "nephew"?), Garrard apparently suggested he was a ruler of Begho, and Masonen speculatively suggested that "Mahamed", "king of Songo" could even refer to a Songhai ruler named Muhammad—i.e. Askia Muhammad himself. Suffice to say, there are a lot of problems with our coverage of the 15th-16th century history of Mali, and extensive revisions are needed. Ornithopsis (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  15th-16th century mansas 

message: What would y'all think of moving the bulk of the historiography and history sections to a new History of the Mali Empire page, and keeping a shorter summary here? I'm thinking of following the model of the Roman Empire page. 
I find the current layout, with the names of kings as section heads and disputed or limited sourcing, confusing and messy, especially for a casual reader who wants to understand the overall sweep of the empire's history but doesn't need mansa-by-mansa details.  Catjacket (talk) 19:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of the Mali Empire Page?