Talk:William Adams (pilot)

message: Having not read the entire thing word for word, I can't make any overall comments on spelling, grammar, and the like, but for length, apparent depth & detail, and pictures, I think this is definitely worth ranking above "a good start." LordAmeth 08:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed the importance of the article from Low to High as Adams was among the first Europeans in Japan, certainly the first Englishman, and certainly the first (if not only, ever) European hatamoto and direct advisor to a shogun. You can move him to "mid" if you'd like, but to my mind, Low is reserved for those who've had no influence on Japan's history or development. Music albums, porn actors, low-ranking samurai... LordAmeth 08:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:Japan Assessment

message: Is anything known of his descendants in England and Japan? Fergananim (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the book Samurai William nothing was known of them after his death. Japan shut itself off for about 200 years after this time so they could have simply become part of the general population or they could have been caught up in the ban on christianity. Your guess is as good as the next man's.Weavehole (talk) 14:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A quick search on google seems to show that no record of any further decedents beyond his imminent children are lost to history, either his bloodlines died off or any present day descendants have no knowledge that he is their ancestor, if a rich geneticists wants to start screening thousands and thousands of Japanese volunteers to find one who had a half dutch-english great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, that would be intresting.--BerserkerBen (talk) 01:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Descendants

message: Could someone please source the quotes here attributed to Adams? I am especially interested in the last listed, "As a nation of free men, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."  
This line happens to be an exact quote from Abraham Lincoln's Lyceum Address of 1837.  In that context, it is fully integrated into Lincoln's main argument. It is, on the other hand, very difficult to imagine an appropriate context for Adams to have spoken or written such a line.  Further, some internet sources attributing the quote to Adams include the preceding line from Lincoln's speech, which makes the attribution all the more dubious.  I suspect this is all the result of an error made in one quote compilation copied by others.  Perhaps (as I often seem to find in popular quotes lists) an actual Adams quote (perhaps the familiar line extolling the civil government of Japan?) was listed adjacent to Lincoln's word and some copyist accidentally omitted Lincoln's name from their notes. (As is typical of such compilations no precise source or context is given, making errors very difficult to track down or correct.)
If this quote is indeed originally from Adams (at least in some form), then appropriated by Lincoln, it would seem to have to be from a published source (of Adams's few surviving letters then known?) available in 1830s America.  So what might that source be? --BruceJohnson (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Source(s) of Quotes?

message: Yasuke is mentioned as being a Samurai but the relevant wiki article on him doesn't specify this at all. I've mentioned him in passing to a few people here in Japan and no-one has heard of any african samurai. Is this an exaggeration of his possible court position or is there some source? Weavehole (talk) 14:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yasuke is mentioned briefly in Shinchō Kōki, but all sources that I've found state that he was attendant of Oda Nobunaga. Even when he participated at Incident at Honnō-ji he's not considered a samurai . In other hand, Adams was a hatamoto.  Greetings! --Rage against (talk) 07:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: First Caucasian Samurai

message: At the moment the quotes section comprises exactly one quote, and the section itself seems fairly pointless in the scheme of the article. I move that it should be deleted, I'd do so myself but I thought it best to put it up for discussion first.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.7.56 (talk) 03:37, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. Delete without further discussion IMO. Student7 (talk) 14:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of the quotes section 

message: 'Adams served in the Royal Navy under Sir Francis Drake and saw naval service against the Spanish Armada in 1588 as master of the Richarde Dyffylde, a resupply ship.[citation needed] Adams then became a pilot for the Barbary Company'
In all likelyhood there is no problem here. I just wish to point out that Adams himself states (in his 1611 letter which I believe is included in this article) that he served in the Barbary Company for 11 or 12 years. If he began service in 1588 or later, this would not add up, since he left on the voyage to Japan in 1598. Should I assume that this is a miscalculation on Adams' part?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.163.32 (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doesn't add up 

message: The article claimed he was also called: Anjin-sama (anjin, "pilot"; sama, a Japanese honorific). There is no citation and no further evidence in the rest of the article. The form sama in particular seems hard to believe. So, if anybody wants to add names like Anjin-sama or Anjin-san, he is supposed to add evidence, too. -- Zz (talk) 09:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anjin-sama 

message: The article claimed: William Adams is known as the only officially-recognised Western samurai. I wonder what the difference between an officially recognised and a non-official samurai is, so that it needs to be mentioned. In the presence of claims such as 'he is known as that' with a corresponding lack of corroboration, I believe this to be made up of thin air. To my knowledge, quite a lot of foreigners got a honorific noble title during the Meiji era. So, even if he may be "known" for it, I ask for reliable sources for the factual claim. -- Zz (talk) 10:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only known officially recognised Western Samurai? 

message: What Protestant denomination did Adams follow if any? Was he an Anglican (which is more a Via Media) or Lutheran etc. Thanks. Freedom Fighter 1988 (talk) 08:12, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 

message: Japanese family is mentioned/suggested but nothing about his Japanese wife (assuming he had one), only his English wife. The Japanese wife was a major story-line in the Shogun TV series - is there any information that can be added on this?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.103.50 (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese wife? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:45, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: The article refers to Ieyasu as shōgun multiple times as though it were his official title at time under discussion (or depicted in the infobox), but this seemingly is inaccurate in most cases, the one exception being where he is referred to as the "future shōgun", and seems to be used in allusion to the James Clavell novel and TV miniseries, which is inappropriate in a novel about a historical figure. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:05, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "shōgun" 

message: Currently, the last sentence of the lede paragraph has
And there's a footnote that says
and a ref is given, which is "Smith, pp. 6-7" which is "Henry Smith, editor. Learning from Shogun: Japanese History and Western Fantasy, Program in Asian Studies University of California, Santa Barbara." (FWIW another book is cited as a ref for the statement in the main body -- that is, the part that says he is a hatamoto -- but doesn't specifically deny that he's a samuri, I guess: "|last=アレキサンダー・ベネット. |url=http://worldcat.org/oclc/1038661169 |title=JAPAN The Ultimate SAMURAI Guide : an Insider Looks at the Japanese Martial Arts and Surviving in the Land of Bushido and Zen |date=2018 |publisher=Chāruzuītatorushuppan |isbn=978-4-8053-1375-6 |oclc=1038661169"
Anyway, Smith says
So, OK, high-tone stuff. But would it be misleading to call him a samuri? Smith says "if by samuri we mean a bushi..." which maybe we don't. He did become a retainer for Ieyasu (which I guess samuri are retainers, but that doesn't necessarily mean all retainers are saumuri) and "he left two swords—the customary mark of samurai status—to his son Joseph at his death". BUT "Yet in no surviving records has any hint of military interest or prowess been ascribed to Adams" which I guess according to Smith you are perforce not a samuri if you don't have these things? But then, it was possible that he was an 'honorary samuri', which maybe that's like an honorary degree, it doesn't really make you a real Ph.D.? Or maybe it makes you a real samuri pretty much. Do not know.
But the thing is, he is very widely called a samuri. Heck, later in the article we sayist
and that is ref'd to a book |last1=Rogers |first1=Hiromi |title=Anjin - The Life and Times of Samurai William Adams, 1564-1620. As Seen Through Japanese Eyes |date=23 April 2024 |publisher=Renaissance Books |isbn=978-1-898823-85-8. But no page is given, so...
But after all the title of the book is "The Life and Times of Samurai William Adams", and also noted in this article are: "In 2002, Giles Milton's historical biography Samurai William (2002) is based on historical sources, especially Richard Cocks' diary" and then we have a ref called "Cite journal |last1=Mizuno |first1=Fuzuki |last2=Ishiya |first2=Koji |last3=Matsushita |first3=Masami |last4=Matsushita |first4=Takayuki |last5=Hampson |first5=Katherine |last6=Hayashi |first6=Michiko |last7=Tokanai |first7=Fuyuki |last8=Kurosaki |first8=Kunihiko |last9=Ueda |first9=Shintaroh |date=2020-12-10 |title=A biomolecular anthropological investigation of William Adams, the first SAMURAI from England |journal=Scientific Reports |language=en |volume=10 |issue=1 |pages=21651 |doi=10.1038/s41598-020-78723-2 |issn=2045-2322 |pmc=7729870 |pmid=33303940|bibcode=2020NatSR..1021651M", which also sounds pretty high-tone and does call him a samuri... but these are biomolecular anthropologist, not experts on Japanese history... The article is also in :Category:Samurai which maybe needs to be removed, and also in :Category:Foreign samurai in Japan which it looks like most or all of those people are in the same boat as Adams so maybe all that needs to be cleaned up.
Britannica does not call him a samuri (altho for some reason the google blurb for that page comes up "William Adams | English Navigator & Samurai Warrior"). History Today (whoever they are) does not call him a samuri and indeed says "Ieyasu was keen to employ people of ability and honesty [like Adams, even if they were not members of the samurai caste." williamadams.fr is an extensive site dedicated entirely to Adams with all kinds of stuff, and it calls him a samuri, but apparently this is the work of one obsessively dedicated amateur but who has dedicated himself to become expert in Adams apparently. There some books with titles like "Samurai William: The Englishman Who Opened Japan" and ["The Needle-Watcher: The Will Adams Story, British Samuri". The William Adams Club (more enthusiasts I suppose) has him as a samurai... our article [[Samurai] has "The English sailor and adventurer William Adams (1564–1620) was among the first Westerners to receive the dignity of samurai." (no ref tho) and he's in List of foreign-born samurai in Japan, both refs are in Japanese tho. That article's lede has "The word samurai has had a variety of meanings historically; here it is taken to mean those who serve in close attendance to the nobility." which would make Adams a samuri, but then the article Samurai has "Samurai (侍、さむらい) were the hereditary military nobility and officer caste of medieval and early-modern Japan from the late 12th century until their abolition in the late 1870s" which is stricter and narrower.
So, I don't know. It matters because I think that "pilot" is a poor disambiguator for the title, and that "samuria" would be better -- if he is one. Otherwise, "imperial advisor" or something. I am inclined to go with ""The word samurai has had a variety of meanings..." myself, and that Smith is being overly pedantic and narrow and its his personal take on it. But I don't know. Herostratus (talk) 03:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is he a samurai, or not? 

message: :William Adams (pilot) →  – Detailed exposition in the thread just above, but his WP:COMMONNAME appears to mostly have the term "samurai" attached to it.
He was not most notable as a pilot (meaning ship's navigator). He did a fair amount in his early years, and his common name in Japan was "'the pilot of Miura  [Peninsula]"; but what he really is notable is, he was the first Englishman in Japan, and stayed there and became an important advisor to the shogun and introduced several modernizations. 
He was made a samurai -- maybe, or maybe not, but apparently that is how he known in the Anglosphere: books about him are like Samurai William and A True and Complete Account of the Life of William Adams - The English Samurai and Samurai William: The Englishman Who Opened Japan and William Adams, Samurai and Anjin - The Life and Times of Samurai William Adams, 1564-1620: A Japanese Perspective and Anjin (William Adams): The English Samurai and Servant of the Shogun: Being the True Story of William Adams, Pilot and Samurai, the First Englishman in Japan and The Blue-Eyed Samurai -- William Adams and Anjin: The Shogun and the English Samurai and probably more. But there is a book titled Adams the Pilot and Brittanica's article is "William Adams, English Navigator"
It's been claimed by an editor(s) that he was not actually a samurai, but rather just a hatamoto which is an upper vassal to a samurai lord. Maybe that is so, or maybe it is debatable, and we don't want to tell the reader things that we are not quite sure are true. OTOH the article itself says "in 1605 Tokugawa further granted Adams the status of samurai." Herostratus (talk) 01:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 4 June 2024