Talk:Mon (emblem)

message: Heraldry has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Vote for this article there if you want to contribute. --Fenice 19:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement drive

message: For DannyWilde "removed apparently bogus category "Japanese family"; please let me know if this category is necessary" , 
"Mon" are not a Japanese family, obviously, but they are linked to a family. I assume that the inclusion or non-inclusion of this category depends on how you understand the category. Rama 09:46, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks very much for your response. "Mon" is in :Category:Japanese heraldry which is part of :Category:Japanese nobility. Isn't that enough? Does it have much to do with the "Japanese family" as such? --DannyWilde 12:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  My personal feeling is that your idea makes sense, and I doubt that anyone will challenge it. If someone has more to say, we will know soon enough :) Rama 15:41, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree: Mon (or perhaps even Japanese heraldry) does not belong under :Category:Japanese nobility because they are (were) not the exclusive domain of nobles, or even of the bushi/samurai class: even members of the merchant class used them. Whether "family" is appropriate is a hard question to answer because so much depends on which definition of family is being applied. In many cases, "house" (e.g., House of Sumitomo, House of Mitsui), "clan" (Tokugawa Clan, Mouri Clan), or even "institution(al))" (for the crests of, e.g., arms of government such as the Ministry of Justice or Office of the Prime Minister) could arguably be more accurate. HTH, Jim_Lockhart 06:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category family 

message: Isn't the first pic a bit misleading? It never identifies where the chrysanthemums are in the image. Readers who know nothing about Japan could either take the entire badge to be the mon or take the central sun. I could be bold and edit, but I have no idea how I'd succinctly say that there are four depictions of the actual mon on the green wreath. Greentubing 11:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is confusing, for the reason you cite. I think it should be removed from this article. The Chrysanthemum Crest (as it is widely known; note the use of "crest") can be depicted more directly. Perhaps the Wikicommons already contains a graphic of it. Fwiw, Jim_Lockhart 06:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol for the specific case of the Emperor's mon, it is treated as a crest in Western heraldry. The Emperor's stall for the Order of the Garter shows the mon fixed on top of a knight's helmet  linked from . So "Crest" is correct in Western terms at least for the Emperor. Greentubing 08:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Many bushi also wore their mon as an adornment on their helmets when going into battle, though the adornment was not always their mon. Jim_Lockhart 10:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Star of the Order of the Chrysanthemum 

message: Here is an image of the Emperor's mon if anyone wants to include it. Greentubing 12:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emperor's mon 

message: Much thanks to the editor who posted images and names of a great many mon. However, there is no indication given of which mon belong to which clan... Adding that in would make this article far more useful. Thanks. LordAmeth 12:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um.. I've just noticed that the Japanese is still intact in the comments. I'll edit in the clan names given, but I still think it would be wonderful if we can continue to make this as full and complete as possible. Some crests were used by multiple clans, especially also by chonin and kabuki actor lineages in addition to samurai. LordAmeth 12:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. I've translated all the ones I can. Next step is to perhaps turn it into a table, translate the descriptions of the mon themselves (the images), and to continue to fill in the assoc. families. LordAmeth 13:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clan associations? 

message: I see this has been debated before but with no clear concensus.  I've requested a rename to Mon (crest) for the following arguments:
1. "Crest" is simply the correct term for the Japanese mon.  It is used universally in dictionaries, encyclopaedias and academic publications.
2. ...and the reason crest is prefered is that, firstly, mon originated from helmet decorations, thus similar to the meaning of crest in western heraldry;
3. ...and secondly, mon are generally held by clans rather than individuals, which again is similar to how crests in western heraldry are often shared by armigers of the same family.
Of course, Japanese mon and western heraldry are completely different things with non-interchangeable terminology.  As such we should not call mon badges just for their superficial resemblance.
I have also proposed a merger from Japanese heraldry to this page.  To put it simply, there is no such thing as "Japanese heraldry" above and beyond the mon; mon is Japanese heraldry, and that page has no reason of existing. o 22:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely about the use of the word "crest". Regardless of whether it's accurate or appropriate to the meaning in Western context, it is definitely the term most frequently used in Japan-related texts. LordAmeth 13:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree for the above reasons as well. Move to Mon (crest) ASAP. John Smith's 17:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree too. Oda Mari 15:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree as well.  (Note:  There's a totally unrelated Japanese mon article, which may or may not benefit from having a "currency" designation in parentheses.)--Endroit 15:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. I somehow never made the connection. Of course, mon and mon should need disambiguation... LordAmeth 21:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well there are actually 3 variations:  mon (門), mon (紋}, and mon (文).  I went ahead and created a disambig page Japanese mon (disambiguation) for all these.--Endroit 13:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The other move at Japanese mon has been reverted by someone, and discussion still continues at Talk:Japanese mon.--Endroit 13:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move and merger

message: At the end of the article there's this big list of "representative kamon".  First of all, how are these mon representative?  I doubt altogether the usefulness of having this list.  To anyone who doesn't already know how mon are named (even to a Japanese speaker), these names are almost meaningless.  If we can make a gallery, great, but if not this list just clutter up the page.  I hesitate to remove them because I know it's somebody's work.  But I just don't see the point. That said, I think it could be nice to expand on the naming of mon.  o (talk) 16:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of representative kamon, what? 

message: I came here hoping for a full list of the kamon I saw while in a shop in the japanese countryside about a year ago. The "List of representative kamon" does not even contain half of the kamon they had. I even bought a wooden amulet there, containing the "kaminari" (thunder) kamon. It would seem logic to either list all of them or just the interesting ones, in which case we should explain why each of the ones we chose was of special interest.
The article also leaves me wondering, is there even a complete list? Does anyone know? JoaCHIP (talk) 21:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete list of all kamon 

message: The opening paragraph states that "[w]hile mon is an encompassing term that may refer to any such device, kamon and mondokoro refer specifically to emblems used to identify a family", but is there any detail on semantic difference between the two terms? 所 in 紋所 (mondokoro) means "place", so I would take it that mondokoro refers more to an area than kamon, which is for a family? Can anyone elaborate on the meaning, or point me in the right direction? — Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 15:26, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just been wondering differences among the four names mon,  monshō , mondokoro and kamon; I've just added an . --62.19.55.77 (talk) 12:03, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Kamon'' vs. ''mondokoro'' 

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