Talk:Helvig of Holstein

message: These are the reliable English language sources that refer to this queen as Hedwig (or Hedvig, which is a variation of the name Hedwig/Helvig). Various unreliable websites are not included.
#The History of Sweden
#Kingship and state formation in Sweden, 1130-1290 
#Politics and reformations: communities, polities, nations, and empires
#A history of the Swedish people, Volume 1
#Lines of Succession: Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe refers to her as Hedwig von Holstein
::I don't know if this is a mistake above here "Hedvig, which is a variation of the name Hedwig/Helvig", but if it is intentional to mean that "Hedwig/Helvig" are the same name, that can not be called anything else than a bold-faced lie. Sorry! As far away from "good faith" as ever any user can be. Manipulative, dishonest, terrible! IF that is meant. If not, forget it. 217.209.96.70 (talk) 15:48, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not intend to say that Hedvig and Helvig are the same names; they are as different as Charles and Carl are and I'm sure you didn't intend to call anyone a manipulative, dishonest and terrible liar. Surtsicna (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Charles and Carl/Karl are variations of the same name, both stemming from Latin's Carolus. Helvig and Hedwig are not variations of the same name but as different as Harold and Arnold and Gerald and Donald; Howard and Seward and Edward; Edwin and Alvin and Irwin; Albert and Robert and Herbert; Ingrid and Sigrid and Astrid; Alma and Emma and Selma; Donna and Dora and Dottie and Dolly. As long as this page does not deal with that fact no reasonable solution can be found. 217.209.96.70 (talk) 20:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable English language sources in favour of Hedwig 

message: I see the move has been done. I just came to think of something ; is Helwig (which is translated to Helvig in Swedish) translated to Hedwig in English? I was just a bit confused : Carl and Charles are the very same name, just in two different languages. But Hedwig is an independent name, and Helwig is another independent name. After all; these are two different German names, and in Germany, they are both used as equals. It's just a question of curiosity really, but perhaps Hedwig and Helwig simply is not recognized as two different names in England? It wouldn't be that strange, as Helwig is not used in England. So perhaps there is no awereness that this is two different names, and this is why Helwig was translated to Hedwig? I'm just curious!--Aciram (talk) 14:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Aciram, that is what anonymous IP 217.209.96.70 was explaining when he wrote: Charles and Carl/Karl are variations of the same name, both stemming from Latin's Carolus. Helvig and Hedwig are not variations of the same name but as different as Harold and Arnold... His comment was ignored. Besides, no matter how logical and/or true, nothing can beat Wikipedia's The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth & it does not look as if any English-language author has ever looked into the matter. All that matters here is that one author wrote the name one way (even if not correct) then was followed by a few other authors (not many have written about her in English), and that's it, the subject with mistake included becomes the only accepted one in Wikiland. Imagine that the original of this lady's birth/baptismal certificate would not be taken into consideration here, only some find in a publication in English that "Helvig" & "Hedwig" are two different names might resolve the issue. And I doubt that it would suffice here. Frania W. (talk) 17:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Depressing isn't it? Even though everyone reasonable finds it likely that the use of Hedwig as an "English version" is a mistake, the change is made anyway - from her legitimate name to the probable mistake (definite, not probable to most of us). Leaving it alone would have done no damage whatsoever. Now? A reliable encyclopedia? SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Serge, this is exactly what I was thinking, leaving it alone would have done no damage whatsoever.  My long decried The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth is what makes me wonder what type of encyclopedia Wikipedia is going to end up being.  But I do not despair that some of its inflexible "rules & regulations" will be changed in the future:  was not the original US Constitution with its 27 amendments?  Frania W. (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A thought 

message: Doing a quick check of the various Royal Houses connected to the subject of this article (because of the "coat of arms" dispute), I just fell upon this *pearl* at the House of Oldenburg:
"Marriages of medieval counts of Oldenburg had paved the way for their heirs to become kings of various Scandinavian kingdoms. In 14th century, through marriage with a descendant of King Valdemar I of Sweden and of King Eric IV of Denmark, a claim to Sweden and Denmark was staked, since 1350.
At that time, its competitors were the successors of Margaret I of Denmark. In the 15th century, the Oldenburg heir of that claim married Hedwig of Holstein, a descendant of Euphemia of Sweden and Norway and also a descendant of Eric V of Denmark."
Natürlich, by clicking on Hedwig of Holstein, one reaches the dear lady of this article (1260-1324):  born & married in 13th century, deceased in the 14th, it is an extremely interesting historical fact to go to that lady's wedding in the 15th... 
I know that Wikipedia is not that interested in truth, but is not credibility one of its goals ?  Frania W. (talk) 15:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources I presented clearly refer to the wife of King Magnus of Sweden, so it is not a case of mistaken identity. The woman you are referring to is Helvig of Schauenburg, daughter of a count of Holstein and Schauenburg. Interestingly enough, that woman is also referred to as Hedwig. Surtsicna (talk) 16:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While on the subject of these, sources presented clearly, could you add page numbers to those citations? Since following the discussion/argument over the naming of Elisabeth de Valois, no one felt the need to even cite one reference for that article! Even after your remark of, Note that 427 books (published after 1990) refer to her as Elizabeth of Valois and only 68 books refer to her as Elisabeth (or Élisabeth) of Valois. Mon Dieu!! --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Surtsicna, this was not a criticism of you and/or "the sources you presented clearly".  What I was pointing out is that for a reader who just parachuted into the reading of the House of Oldenburg, the credibility of Wikipedia could be in doubt. There seems to be a definite micmac between the various Heilwigis/Helvig/Helwig/Hedvig/Hedwig from various Scandinavian countries & German States of long ago. I believe it is what Serge Woodzing was trying to warn us against. And while Hedwig of Schauenburg is Hedvig av Holstein in Swedish wiki, the lady of our argument here is Helvig av Holstein for the Swedes. That's all. Frania W. (talk) 17:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't take it as criticism. I just pointed out that this is the woman which English language sources call Hedwig of Holstein. The text you cited refers to another woman, Hedwig of Schauenburg. Surtsicna (talk) 17:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Surtsicna:  For what I was pointing out, please go to House of Oldenburg and click on Hedwig of Holstein there (fourth paragraph): you are not going to fall upon Hedwig of Schauenburg. Frania W. (talk) 18:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you are going to fall upon Hedwig of Schauenburg. Surtsicna (talk) 18:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Case of mistaken identity?

message: It's time, as per WP:CCC, to have a look at this again. The grossly incorrect name of this article is an embarrassment to Wikipedia. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still wrong name 

message: As a preparation for a move dicussion, I collect here sources that mention her. 
Encyclopedias in any language:
* Helvig (in Swedish) - Svenskt biografiskt lexikon (1975-1977): Helvig
* Helvig (in Swedish) - Nordisk familjebok (1909): Helvig
* Helvig Holsteinilainen (in Finnish) - Kansallisbiografia (2000): Helvig Holsteinilainen 
* Helvig (in Swedish) - Biografiskt lexikon för Finland (2008): Magnus Ladulås
* Helvig (in Swedish) - Nationalencyklopedin: Helvig
* Heilwig (in German) - Neue Deutsche Biographie 6 (1964) Gerhard I.
English language books that mention her. These are all the books in English that I have found:
* Helvig - Francis James Child (1882) The English and Scottish popular ballads, Vol. 2
* Helvig - V.A. Nilsson (1899) Sweden
* Helvig - Cronholm, Neander Nicolas (1902) A history of Sweden from the earliest times to the present day
* Helvig - Jón Stefánsson (1917) Denmark and Sweden, with Iceland and Finland
* Helvig - Folke Henschen (1966) The Human Skull: A Cultural History
* Helvig - Eric Elstob (1979) Sweden: a political and cultural history
* Helvig - Ed. Philip Pulsiano (1993) Medieval Scandinavia : an encyclopedia
* Helvig - Herman Lindqvist (1994 ) A Journey Through Swedish History
* Helvig - Lars O. Lagerqvist (1995) Kings and rulers of Sweden : a pocket encyclopedia
* Helvig - Ed. Lars G. Warme (1996) A History of Swedish Literature
* Helvig - Inger Larsson (2009) Pragmatic Literacy and the Medieval Use of the Vernacular: The Swedish Example
* Helvig - Erik Carlquist, Peter C. Hogg, Eva Österber (2011) The Chronicle of Duke Eric
* Helvig - Stephen A. Mitchell (2023) Old Norse Folklore: Tradition, Innovation, and Performance in Medieval Scandinavia
* Haelvig - Jacob Truedson Demitz (1996) Throne of a thousand years
* Hedvig - Vilhelm Moberg (1972) A History of the Swedish People, Vol. 1
* Hedwig - Anders Fryxell (1844) The History of Sweden
* Hedwig - Johannes Jørgensen (1954) Saint Bridget of Sweden: 1349-1373
* Hedwig - Commire, Anne; Klezmer, Deborah (1999) Women in World History
* Hedwig - Louda, Jiřı́ (1999) Lines of Succession
* Hedwig - Philip Line (2006) Kingship and state formation in Sweden, 1130-1290
* Hedwiga - Ed. Marquis de Ruvigny (1909) The nobilities of Europe
* Fiction: 
* Not many scientific articles written in English seem to exist:
** Searching Google Scholar for "Hedwig Ladulas", the only results in English are the book chapters from Philip Line's book. 
** Searching Google Scholar for "Helvig Ladulas" returns a few articles in English:  and two Master's theses: .
From the list #Reliable English language sources in favour of Hedwig, I drop the third item, "Politics and Reformations", which actually discusses a different Hedvig of Holstein, the mother of Christian I of Denmark.
I'd also like to comment Philip Line as the source of English names, as he was given a large weight in the above discussions: In the introduction of his book he tells that  So when he writes "Hedwig of Holstein (Sw. Helvig)", he only claims that Hedwig and Helvig are the Danish and Swedish variants of her name, respectively. There is no assessment of conventional English usage. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 04:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Some primary sources about her: Some Holsteinian(?) annal, and medieval letters at Riksarkivet. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 16:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) ToadetteEdit! 15:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hedwig of Holstein →  – Helvig is more common in English language as indicated by sources collected above in #Sources. However, the number of sources is so small that WP:USENATIVE might be applicable; this would also favor Helvig. The suggested name would also disambiguate this person from another Hedvig of Holstein, the mother of Christian I, who AFAIK is never referred to as 'Helvig' (See sources at Talk:Hedvig of Holstein). Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Note that I've also added a referenced section Hedwig of Holstein#Name in the article. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 5 May 2024