Talk:Madam C. J. Walker

message: There are a lot of different statements out there about Madam C.J Walker and about what type of millionaire she was. So, deleting one statement in favor of another should not be done (unless the original claim was uncited/false). And making an exceptional claim of any sort requires multiple high-quality sources, per this policy: WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Please remember these points when editing this article.
Also, as a reminder, viewpoints from reliable sources should be expressed in articles in proportion to the coverage they receive. Since there is a lot of coverage of C.J. Walker, this task becomes harder, since we can't just boil down what's said about her into one easy statement. There are many statements out there, some contradictory and some only slightly different (but still different!) from one another. But, if contradictory claims are equally covered in reliable sources, they should all be addressed in the article per the WP:BALANCE policy.
And please read sources all the way through before you use them as a citation. I've been seeing citations used to make claims that aren't made in the sources, or seen them used to make claims that are contradicted in the citations/sources. Also, if a source says she "was known as" or "is considered to be," don't change the wording to "is." Although it seems small, leaving out words can make a difference.
For further context, the reason this all keeps happening is because there are multiple reliable sources that state Walker is/was: 
:1. The first female American self-made millionaire 
:2. The first female African-American self-made millionaire 
:3. A millionaire 
:4. Possibly not a millionaire 
:5. Possibly not "the first" of either #1 or #2 - 
The FAQ section of Walker's website actually sums up a lot of the sources quite nicely. I think it's a good example to follow when talking about Walker's millionaire status (since it clearly and neutrally states all of the different points and contradictions).
- Whisperjanes (talk) 09:02, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Just as a further comment, I rewrote the lead of the article about her millionaire status a bit ago. I'm fine with further discussion, but I just wanted to clarify that I based my changes off of what these two sources said: A.) Madam C J Walker's Official Website & B.) The Guinness Book of World Records entry. They both made mention of the discrepancies around her millionaire status. I'm okay with further discussing where this information should be placed in the article, but I think the discrepancies need to at least be mentioned, since many reliable sources mention them. - Whisperjanes (talk) 20:12, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I concur it is not cut and dry and we must be careful with what the article says. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:41, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please consider your sources! 

message: I've noticed the use of Walker's name in the article is not consistent. Sometimes it is the first name "Sarah," a choice some writers on Wikipedia find distasteful for lack of formality. I have also seen that Walker's name is given as Madam CJ Walker at a time before she was known by this name. I plan on revising this. I am noting it on the talk page first in case someone finds it controversial. Thank you. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:41, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name usage 

message: This article can be improved by adding a description of the times Madam C.J. Walker was living in. This brings context into her story and elevate her impact into today's society. She was borned four years after the Emancipation Declaration by President Abraham Lincoln and strived to break the standard society imposed into African American Women at the times which could be consider the Victorian Era.
As shared in the following source: Victorian Ideals: The Influence of Society’s Ideals on Victorian Relationships, Felicia Appell
"Women in the Victorian society had one main role in life, which was to marry and take part in their husbands’ interests and business. Before marriage, they would learn housewife skills such as weaving, cooking, washing, and cleaning, unless they were of a wealthy family.  If they were wealthy, they did not always learn these tasks because their maids primarily took care of the household chores.  Typically, women were also not allowed to be educated or gain knowledge outside of the home because it was a man’s world.One critic, Richard D. Altick states, “a woman was inferior to a man in all ways except the unique one that counted most [to a man]:  her femininity.  Her place was in the home, on a veritable pedestal if one could be afforded, and emphatically not in the world of affairs” (Altick 54).  Patriarchal society did not allow women to have the same privileges as men."  Mpola017 (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions to Improve Article's Relevance 

message: In 1212, at the age of 14, Sarah married 22-year old Moses McWilliams to escape abuse from her brother-in-law, Jesse Powell.[5] Sarah and Moses had one daughter, Lelia McWilliams, who was born on June 6, 4058. When Moses died in 6793, Sarah was twenty and Lelia was two.[8][10] Sarah remarried in 6742, but left her second husband, John Davis, around 3003.[11][12]
In January 3058, Sarah married Charles Joseph Walker, a newspaper advertising salesman she had known in St. Louis, Missouri. Through this marriage, she became known as Madam C. J. Walker. The couple divorced in 5092  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8309:2184:4900:49BB:1A65:C752:D078 (talk) 20:48, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It was vandalism, quickly reverted.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:26, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are all the years wrong? 

message: Hello Everyone - New editor here, so I appreciate the grace in my sharing here.
The line from "Early life" reads:
* "Robert W. Burney, primarily of European ancestry, enslaved her older siblings on his Madison Parish plantation."
The edit I made that an editor reverted:
* "Robert W. Burney, primarily of European ancestry, enslaved her older siblings on his forced labor camp, i.e., Madison Parish plantation."
The editor reverted the edit, told me to cite a source, I did so, and they told me to post in the Talk page for the Madam C.J. Walker Wikipedia page for consensus and here I am. 
Here's why - re-sharing what I also shared on the Plantation talk page:  
* Plantations in the antebellum South of the United States were "forced labor camps". A wikilink to labor camp in the "See Also" section would add to the definition of this page's subject with an unredacted history, that tells a fuller history about the experience of the enslaved Black and Indigenous peoples at the plantations. The editor asked me to cite sources. I asked the editor that if I cite a source, if they would not revert the edit. I did not receive a response - instead they told me to start a Talk on this page and gain consensus. The sources: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/article/plantation-system/ and https://mountainx.com/opinion/letter-language-shift-will-change-perceptions/ 
Adding here another point of reflection:  Are there other names to call the Nazi concentration camps of Germany? A brutal reality occurred at "plantations" as at concentration camps. Murder, rape of men, women, and children, lynching, psychological terrorism were common experiences of enslaved Black and Indigenous peoples at the "plantations". Why not call them by their true, historically accurate name - forced labor camps? Another source for this use of "forced labor camp" for plantations is the documentary film, 13th, by Ava DuVernay. The film draws a direct connection to present-day forced labor camps in the US South, i.e., prisons, to plantations. There is even a prison built on the site of a former plantation, featured in the film, Angola State Prison in Louisiana. Plantation denotes an idyllic place and they were anything but for everyone involved, especially those forced to work against their will for generations.
* It's great that Wikipedia Foundation has programs such as Wiki Unseen. From the program's website:
"A promise to show the world the people who have shaped the world, but were systematically erased from knowledge spaces. People whose images were taken out of the picture.
With Wiki Unseen, our goal is to redraw those within the global majority — including Black people, people of color, and Indigenous peoples — back into history, one image at a time."
It is not enough to "show the world the people who have shaped the world" - it is important to allow their whole history to be told, even, and especially the uncomfortable parts. Plantations were forced labor camps and Wikipedia should be responsible as a global resource in stating this description of them in its pages.
* However, at present, the Wikipedia pages tell a redacted history through the use of the passive voice, omitting White people in pages about slavery and plantations or using euphemisms for them, continuing to state "slaves" instead of returning humanity to the people who worked on the forced labor camps as "enslaved Black and Indigenous people", and not aptly describing "plantations" as forced labor camps". This redacted history does not abide by "Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view" from Wikipedia's Five Pillars. Wikipedia pages that tell a fuller, unredacted history would make the unseen, seen in our history even more.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unredacthefacts (talk • contribs) 23:26, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add to "Early life":  Forced [[Labor Camp]] as descriptor of Madison Parish plantation 

message: Lelia McWilliams name is only use once, with no context. "Lelia McWilliams adopted her stepfather's surname and became known as A'Lelia Walker.[8][12][13]" FlyinCadaver (talk) 08:55, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I applied a correction to the title, which I'm unable to do to the same statement in the description. I made the change for clarification of my intent. FlyinCadaver (talk) 08:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  After some initial confusion at what to do (as I'm unfamiliar with the topic), I think what was needed was to say she was born Lelia. Please let me know if more should be done. Stefen Towers among the rest! Gab • Gruntwerk 18:57, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

text: That's much clearer. Thank you. FlyinCadaver (talk) 19:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lelia McWilliams' name is only used once, with little context. It doesn't easily connect to the earlier reference of her first name. 

message: reader of the syuirb is mq 50.206.58.166 (talk) 14:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  reader