Talk:Friedrich Martens

message: I just wanted to point out that Fyodor Fyodorovich was a descendant of a German family living in Estonia; Neither he nor his descendants are ethnically estonian. Jan Kross argues the Estonian viewpoint out of personal and nationalistic motives. This viewpoint is not in fact true.
Source: Mary Konstantinovna Martens, my great-aunt, grand niece of Fyodor Fyodorovich Martens.--Martens
::Thanks for the note. It is rather correct that FM was raised a German-speaker, and would have not considered himself an ethnic Estonian. In fact, a large number of people in 19th century Estonia did the same, i.e. "became, and raised their children as, Germans" along with the improvement of their social status. These first- or second-generation Germans later often tended to forget, or sometimes even denied their lower class (i.e., ethnic Estonian) ancestry. However, all this (and literary endeavours of Jaan Kross) does not change the well documented fact that FM's birthparents in Pernau were lower class ethnic Estonians.--3 Löwi 07:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is this fact well documented other than Jaan Kross? The Martens have always considered themselves German, however, as you well point out, this could be the case whether or not it was actually true. Nonetheless, Martens is a German last name, not Estonian. Also, in their passports, the Martens were all documented as Germans, and i am not sure how easy it was to change your official nationality, considering that it was a determining factor of how you were treated in the Russian Empire and Soviet Union. Please give me a source that does not refer to Jaan Kross that says he was born to lower class Estonians.--Martens
On June 8 (21), 1909, the day following F. Martens’ death, leading Estonian daily “Päewaleht” of Tallinn wrote the following on its page 3: Prof. Martens surnud. Walga jaamas suri 7. juunil endine Peterburi ülikooli rahwuswahelise õiguse professor Martens (sündimise poolest eestlane) ära. Raw literary translation: “Prof. Martens dead. At Valga station has on 7 June former St. Petersburg University’s international law professor  Martens (by birth an Estonian) died.” On the same day, another daily, “Postimees” of Tartu reports essentially the same on its page 3, adding that Kadunu oli rahwuse poolest eestlane  i.e., The deceased was Estonian by nationality. 
thumb|350px|right|“Postimees” of Tartu reports on 8 June 1909 (OS) that Prof. Martens has died in Valga on previous day and that the deceased was an ethnic Estonian 
Both of these newspaper issues can be viewed in the online database at http://dea.nlib.ee/index.php – just type 08 06 1909 in the first date field and click on Otsi (Search) button. Note that the Estonian-language word eestlane unambiguously means “ethnic Estonian” (i.e., it does not mean someone who was just born in Estonia, or just resides in Estonia), the word rahwus (rahvus) means nationality as ethnicity, not nationality as citizenship (there was no Estonian state, or citizenship thereof, in 1909, anyway). What this means is that professor Martens was considered an ethnic Estonian, not an ethnic German, by contemporary Estonian press, who had no reason to falsify Martens’ ethnic origin, or to insult his family by doing so.
Contrary to your assumption, Martens is actually a rather typical Estonian surname (a simple Google search or look into Estonian phone book would suffice to show that). A quick look in an online database http://www.history.ee/ono/otsing19.html (type in “Martens” in the search field) indicates that in the beginning of the 19th century the first-time surname Martens was assigned on 18 different occasions to lower class Estonian individuals/families who had no surname on the record before this. It seems that it is now your burden of proof (needing more than hearsay from living relatives) to show that Martens and his parents (e.g., his father who was a tailor by profession) were Germans, and not Estonians, as has been reported many times over in Estonian press both lately and back then. Cheers, --3 Löwi 21:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality

message: The Martens family was definitely ethnically German, however Jaan Kross has popularized the notion that he was ethnically estonian and estonian nationalists have accepted it. Sources from estonia are urneliable as they are likely to be biased, but unfortunately nothing else seems to exist. All living descendants of Martens insist the family was German, and it must be noted that all the names of Friedrich and his brothers were german rather than estonian.
Does anyone have any Martens documents that will conclusively prove he was German? Using Estonian sources to prove he was estonian is like using Soviet sources to prove that peasants loved collectivization - they are unreliable because of unquestionable presence of bias.
:Martens was not German. I removed your unsourced change and restored the source pre-dating even the birth of Jaan Kross. Please do not change the article unless you have any kind of source showing that he was a German - do not mix him up with Georg Friedrich von Martens, who was also an international lawyer and definitely German. 88.196.132.190 (talk) 13:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No I am definitely not. I think my family would know who it is descended from (as well as where they come from originally). The problem is that people at the time didn't save little horse carriage tokens and whatnot from cities they moved away from to prove they were Germans a hundred years later. At his death, yes, all the estonian newspapers wrote that he was estonian, and this absolutely doesn't prove that he was. Estonian nationalist movement was gainign steam at the moment and they used the death of a famous person to advance their cause. Pustogarov, in his books, notes that there is no consensus on the matter (with the Germans believing him german and the estonians estonian), but that the family DOES claim it is german. The Von Martens archives in Finland have some documents about Friedrich Martens' parents and grandparents that say he came from Germany and this is the closest to reliable evidence you can get.Martens (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Also, Julius Martens was Friedrich Martens close relative, no relation to Georg von Martens. Whoever said that hasn't done their research.Martens (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Self published sources are not acceptable as reliable sources for Wikipedia. Martintg (talk) 20:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

text: For what its worth, both Estonian Soviet Encyclopedia 1973 (vol 5) and Estonian Encyclopedia 1990 (vol 5) say he was a Russian diplomat of an ethnic Estonian origin. Oth (talk) 13:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Soviets were (1) not extremely concerned with intricacies of person's ethnic origin if it did not influence person's career (Baltic German nationalist would be listed as Baltic German, but both Estonian and German from Estonia would be likely listed as "originated from Estonia") and (2) not fond of promoting the German contribution in Russian history. Besides, they relied on Imperial data and Empire did not distinguish between ethnicities, it distinguished religious creeds. All Lutheran Protestants born in Estonia were considered one group by official statistics, be they ethnic German, Swedes, Estonians or mutts. So Soviet Encyclopedia is probably of little value in this particular disagreement between true Estonian patriots and Rest Of World :) RJ CG (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Rest Of World" being in this case one probable descendant with COI? Nice going, RJ CG, keep the ethnic insults coming. 88.196.141.180 (talk) 18:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Martens were German

message: Could it be that Martens started to add "von" to his last name after he reached certain position in the Russian service? According to Table of Ranks, one aquired hereditary nobility after reaching 4th grade. Martens's career seems to advance fast, so he could aquire 4th grade by mid-1870s. Books of Baltic orders are pretty irrelevant here, so shouldn't we remove all this ORish stuff? RJ CG (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, go ahead. 88.196.141.180 (talk) 18:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ennoblement

message: "Martens was of Estonian ethnic origin, an issue thoroughly researched recently in Estonia on the basis of complicated church and orphanage records." Richard B. Bilder & W. E. Butler, Professor Martens’ Departure by Jaan Kross, Book Review, American Journal of International Law (1994), No. 4, page 864
:And then again, Estonian researchers have vested interest (especially in early 1990s, when newly created states scrambled to glorify their past) in proving him being Estonian. Having to deal with situation when for centuries every rich or educated Estonian daydreamed to be considered German or Swede and worked hard to achieve that goal, Estonia the state was well short of "great ancestors" to buttress national myths, so moot cases like Martens were actively called upon. 
:Then again, there's certain ironic twist that Estonian editors are trying to do their best to prove that talented ethnic Estonian worked his buns off to be considered German as late as 150 years ago...RJ CG (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How did he "work his buns off to be considered German"? He used his given name, he never represented himself as German in any way, as far as any source shows. Wishful thinking once again, like we've seen great number of times in this discussion? I recommend avoiding articles related to ethnic matters in any way, RJ CG, as it is obvious you are extremely biased in this and not afraid to bend facts and sources to represent what you want them to show. 88.196.139.227 (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate your recommendation very much, but I would like to remind you that your personal feelings toward yours truly is of no value to Wikipedia. I would suggest you keep your phobias and name-calling to yourself. Thank you in advance, RJ CG (talk) 16:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My phobias and name-calling? Unless you can back up your claim "Estonian researchers have vested interest (especially in early 1990s, when newly created states scrambled to glorify their past) in proving him being Estonian" with a solid source - minimum would be article in a well-known, peer-reviewed scientific magazine, I would call the comment racist - and same for its author. So, how about a source, RJ CG? Oh, and how about that "work his buns off to be considered German" comment, no sources still. How not like you... oh, wait, exactly like you. Only claims and no sources.  88.196.139.227 (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would ignore RJ CG's antagonistic comments here. He was subject of a recent Arbcom case and has a block log as long as your arm , all related to Estonian articles. From his record it appears he has an axe to grid against Estonian editors and will apparently inject himself into any discussion if he can identify some of the participants are from Estonia. Martintg (talk) 21:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me remind you that yours truly became the subject of vicious personal attack (that you enthusiastically endorce with your fact-twisting) for having an audacity to question sources favourable to ethnically correct version of reality. Although I kinda support your suggestion to stop personal attack. RJ CG (talk) 12:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

text: The "Von Martens Family Archive, Finland" is useless as a source, because it is unpublished and thus cannot be verified. Ofcourse any family would love to be associated with a famous person, thus there is a conflict of interest issue involved in protecting the family legends. Jaan Kross' book was review by the American Journal of International Law in 1994, so your claim of a "lack of journalistic integrity" is without basis. Note that the German language version of this article acknowledges Martens' ethnic Estonian roots . Martintg (talk) 21:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Book by Kroos had been reviewed as fictionalized account. Wikipedia is not considered WP:RS, even German one. So your thinly weiled personal attack against editor who happened to enrage you has no grounds but your personal phobias. RJ CG (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Who is "Kroos"? I've never heard of him. However, if you mean Jaan Kross, then his book is not used as a source - however, American Journal of International Law is well-known peer-reviewed scientific journal - highest quality source there is for Wikipedia. Also, can you finally come up with some sources for your claims finally - or shall we write them off as a racist rant? 88.196.136.244 (talk) 04:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another source

message: * Postimees 31 March 2009: Martin Arpo: kommunismiaja kuritegude tee Euroopa Inimõiguste Kohtuni
Martin Arpo is a former investigator of crimes against humanity and war crimes, and now a high commissar at Kapo, Estonian Security Police.  Among other interesting points, this source explain how Martens' Clause was the basis for rejecting the claims that Nürnberg Charter was applied as a retroactive law -- due to the acceptance of Martens' Clause, the Nürnberg Charter merely clarified what, under existing common international law, had been agreed upon previously. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:27, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Martin Arpo on Martens

message: The Wikipedia:Typo Team/moss spell checker has found a possible typo that a copyeditor needs help to resolve. If matricles is misspelled, it can just be corrected in this article. If matricles is a legitimate word, it should be added to the English Wiktionary (which defines words in all languages) with a definition at wikt:matricles. Feel free to leave a note in this section if you do one of those things, or if you can provide any hints about this word. Thanks! -- Elfabet (talk) 19:26, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I found an article matricula which sounds as though it definitely fits the bill for this word.  Whether it's OK to simply replace "matricles" with "matricula", I'm not sure.  It would guess that it's OK, though among other things, it's substituting a singular for a plural. Jkgree (talk) 22:45, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , Thanks, with your input I've corrected the case on the page. Case closed! Elfabet (talk) 13:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Is matricles a typo or a real word?