Talk:Kurt Knispel

message: I have read that Knispel was denied access to the Knight's Cross due to an "Unnnational Socialistic Attitude"
and frequent run-ins with military police authorities. It is documented that he severely beat and injured an
einstatzgruppen man whom he thought was mishandling POW's in 44 and also was arrested for looting a wrecked
supply train (german). Though looking for materials for his vehicle he ended up with food and booze which
was shared with his platoon of tigers. Intervention of company and battalion commanders sved him from severe
punishments but it was decided that he would NEVER receive the Knights Cross
:What is the medal on his breast pocket in the photo? Geeman (talk) 08:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Appears to be the Iron Cross, not sure if its the first or second class but probably the former.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: it says the date but not how : (  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.93.100 (talk) 21:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  How he died

message: Recently added content is not cited to reliable sources (worldwartwo.filminspector.com & warhistory.com). WP:RS offers suggestions on what sources are considered reliable.  K.e.coffman (talk) 20:55, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edit 

message: There used to be a lot of information here about his military career, unconventional attitude to military discipline etc... why has it been deleted ? Rcbutcher (talk) 09:14, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This article explains what happened. A zealous WP editor https://www.wired.com/story/one-womans-mission-to-rewrite-nazi-history-wikipedia/?src=via-twitter. I think for the neutrality of history, war heroes of different camps (no matter the camp) should be given similar length and details when available. The equivalent American soldiers' page is 4 times longer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette_G._Pool— Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.191.82.109 (talk) 19:59, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The key word is "when available." The vast majority of the claims originally made about him were from historical fiction. Hi529 (talk) 20:37, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened to all the content ?

message: The stories about Knispel being a rebel are all over the internet but are almost entirely unsupportable. They credit him with everything short of X-ray vision and Daniel Boone shooting prowess. They also describe his as standing up for the little guy, lack of respect for authority, disobedience and seem geared towards creating a folk hero out of him. They even talk of him having a tattoo around his neck - clearly a mis-translation and referring to his identity disc. These articles seem to have been written largely by people with little interest or understanding of tank tactics and more interest in romantic idealism. Knispel must have had a pretty good idea of tactics to have achieved what he did. His goatee beard, seen in several photographs, would have singled him out too. Some of the stories might be true...or they might not. The truth is, we know very little about him. I have yet to read anything credible which backs these claims up and I'm pleased to see they have not made it into this article. Flanker235 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: Its very strange to me that the entire article about this extraordinary man is a mere 4 sentences,  despite many of his actions and whereabouts for much of his life being known and written about.
:Because, as discussed earlier in this talk page, most of the original material comes from Franz Kurowski, who does not meet WP:RS standards. In fact, he's regarded as a historical novelist or even a fantasist. Almost everything we thought we knew about Knispel has basically been debunked. Without being critical of Knispel, his own colleagues were in total disagreement with Kurowski, who claimed to have inside sources on much of what he wrote but never produced it. In the end Kurowski's hagiography did the man a disservice. Flanker235 (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  bizarrely short article 

message: The material was restored in violation of Wikipedia:Verifiability#Responsibility_for_providing_citations, a core Wikipedia policy. I'm preserving this material here by providing this link. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:22, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see above. I do not believe that reliable sources for Kurt Knispel exist; the one source to have written about him -- Franz Kurowski in his Panzer Aces series -- is a known fabulist. His account is historical fiction, pretty much; please see sample. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:31, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: K.e.coffman I agree that Kurt Knispel is one of these mythologized axis soldiers, so i checked out his article page. What i noticed is that none of the sources use anything from the german Bundesarchiv sources nor the american NARA archive sources. So far i had one person tell me that using Bundesarchiv and NARA archives as sources is considered reliable, but again, before i add anything, can those be used? The documents i gathered on Kurt Knispel lower his number a bit but also add much more information on this man. While he was outstanding, he wasn't as outstanding as presented on his page. Thanks in advance ChartreuxCat (talk) 23:03, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

text: Originally posted to my Talk page with this diff. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

text: Citations in this diff are to Franz Kurowski. His Panzer Aces series (which the article is currently citing) is historical fiction, pretty much; please see sample.  K.e.coffman (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dr. Roman Töppel article about Kurowski: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?v=pfmilK8D0_Y&event=video_description&redir_token=SR5FNMg4muWgCD9xhDqq7YSuUPZ8MTU4OTEyMjQ1OEAxNTg5MDM2MDU4&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F37429738%2FThe_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_ Flanker235 (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced material 

message: :Originally posted to my Talk page with this diff. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Citations in this diff are to Franz Kurowski. His Panzer Aces series (which the article is currently citing) is historical fiction, pretty much; please see sample.  K.e.coffman (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dr. Roman Töppel article about Kurowski: https://www.youtube.com/redirect?v=pfmilK8D0_Y&event=video_description&redir_token=SR5FNMg4muWgCD9xhDqq7YSuUPZ8MTU4OTEyMjQ1OEAxNTg5MDM2MDU4&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F37429738%2FThe_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_ Flanker235 (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Now cited to Franz Kurowski

message: Preserving here by providing this link; pls see edit summary for rationale. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:09, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced material, take 2

message: How come then, that the Volksbund page (http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=9859af90f691820f6bd35f4d5e54ffbb&cHash=ac2bdeec7a3e1810e8b4871400e3cc7e) shows for him that there is still no grave for him??? (Kurt Knispel wurde noch nicht auf einen vom Volksbund errichteten Soldatenfriedhof überführt.) 80.151.9.187 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 09:48, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ^ "Remains of Kurt Knispel located .." War History Online. 2014-12-19. Retrieved 2017-01-28. 

message: It is abundantly clear that the German wiki entry for Kurt Knispel is vastly superior to the current edit.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Knispel
(It does not contain any of the problematic material and its content is well sourced. Most of it is drawn from his service record in the Bundesarchiv!)
The article should be updated to reflect this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edgeworthy (talk • contribs) 14:56, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your concern. The corresponding wiki in German references an armored war historian's book which was published in 2004, 4 years after the popular Kurowski fabrication. Unless the corresponding work can be demonstrated to use a source for that claim that does not include Kurowski, or if it has no relevant sourcing for Knispel in its bibliography, it is best to assume that it is yet another unspectacular mishap on the part of a historian that should have checked a source. George Forty wouldn't be the first person to have made that mistake. Thanks for pointing out the error on the German wiki, even if inadvertent. Mewnst (talk) 01:59, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see anywhere in Wikipedia being concerned about the source of information but here. If a reputable historian points it out then it's the job of Wikipedia to present it so not to do a critical assessment of the accuracy of it or its sources. The same way, for many of these articles, Wikipedia uses Steven Zaloga's work which is being criticized as biased yet I don't see the same level of scrutiny.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:1A3F:C906:5635:E185:4293:C4C0 (talk) 13:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is Zaloga being criticised, exactly? (Hohum @) 14:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Reputable historians tend to acknowledge that the fog of war is real, and don't bother trying to invent information out of nothing. Kurowski is not a credible historian, and should not be referenced as authoritative. He's referenced here as what he is: a historical fiction author. His errors don't magically get cleaned up when they're reissued in another Stackpole book. The scrutiny is deserved. Mewnst (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison with content on German wikipedia. 

message: https://www.facebook.com/PeKoPublishing/posts/feldwebel-kurt-knispels-last-combat-missionkurt-knispel-was-born-on-20-september/1851800738242970/
"Up until now, we have had only a little hard evidence about the circumstances of his death. This is a brief summary of the tactical circumstances surrounding his very last combat mission.
Schwere Panzer-Abteilung „Feldherrnhalle” (the ex-503) was alerted on 26 April 1945. At 0730 hours, following a 30-minute artillery preparation, the elements of the 27th Guards Rifle Corps of the Soviet 7th Guards Army, together with the 27th Separate Guards Tank Brigade, launched an attack in the southern foreground of Brno, from the area of Musov, via Vlasatice, in a northwesterly direction.
According to data as at 0700 hours that day, the 27th Separate Guards Tank Brigade had the following serviceable AFV-strength: one IS-2 heavy tank, eight T-34/85 tanks, plus one SU-76M, one SU-85 and four ISU-122 self-propelled guns. Under the command of the Soviet Tank Brigade, the combined company of the Romanian 2nd Tank Regiment also participated in the fighting with three German Panzer IVs and two Panzer IIIs, and also with two R-35 and four R-1 tanks.
The Soviet 409th Rifle Division captured Pasohlávky. At the same time, Hill 222, which was of tactical importance, 2km east of Pasohlávky, was taken by the 72nd Guards Rifle Division, in cooperation with the 27th Separate Guards Tank Brigade. The Soviets ran into German AFVs and infantry 700m west of the hill. In the fighting that ensued, the Soviet tank brigade lost one T-34/85 tank (burnt out), and two knocked-out ISU-122 self-propelled guns (one of them burned out). An officer and three NCOs were killed and four NCOs were wounded in action. According to their own report, the Soviet tankers destroyed three guns, eight machine-guns and four cars, and killed 80 German soldier there.
By 2200 hours, the Soviet AFVs with elements of the 72nd Guards Rifle Division, were closing on the road junction east of Vlasatice (from where the road runs northwards to Nova Ves). However, right before the junction – 2km northwest of Hill 222 – they had already run into the defense put up by the German Panzer-Division “Feldherrnhalle 2” as early as 1400 hours that day.
At that time, some – probably two – Tiger B tanks of the schwere Panzer-Abteilung “Feldherrnhalle 2” were stationed in the area, and knocked out one of the attacking Soviet AFVs as early as 26 April.
On the night 26/27 April, seven tanks and 10 APCs from the Kampfgruppe of Panzer-Division “Feldherrnhalle 2” – at least two of which were Tiger B heavy tanks, including Feldwebel Knispel’s AFV with the turret number “132” – succeeded in halting the Soviet attack. Afterwards, at 0445 hours, they launched a counterthrust and in a mere 15 minutes they pushed back the elements of the 27th Guards Rifle Corps and the 27th Separate Guards Tank Brigade in a southeasterly direction.
Shortly after 0500 hours on 27 April, the Soviet AFVs, divided into two groups, set up defences on Hill 222. Six combat vehicles took up firing positions on the northeastern slopes of the hill in order to close the road running from Nová Ves towards Musov. Another 10 tanks and self-propelled guns established an ambush position on the southwestern slopes to cut off the eastward route of the Germans, who, in the meantime, succeeded to retake Pasohlávky.
By 1000 hours, the Soviets had parried three German counterthrusts in the area of Hill 222. In so doing, they managed to stop the Germans, who retreated, leaving six knocked out AFVs behind (according to the war diary of the 72nd Guards Rifle Division two of them burned out; however, in the war diary of the Soviet tankers, five of the knocked out German AFVs burnt out). According to their own report, the Soviet AFVs captured an APC, took 18 prisoners (mainly from Panzer-Division “Feldherrnhalle 2”) and killed 80 soldiers in combat. The 27th Separate Guards Tank Brigade lost two knocked out T-34/85 tanks (one of them burnt out) in the combat fought on the morning of 27 April.
 
The Tiger B heavy tanks reported, that they had knocked out a total of six Soviet AFVs during the fighting on 26-27 April. Five of these knockouts are also confirmed by the Soviet archival sources. At least two of these AFVs were knocked out by Knispel according to Franz Kurowski. These were the Feldwebel’s 167th and 168th confirmed tank kills, the latter being his last knockout. 
This time, however, Feldwebel Knispel didn’t come through the fighting unscathed. According to a surviving crew member, a shell, fired from the gun of a Soviet T-34/85 tank from 3rd Tank Battalion of 27th Separate Guards Tank Brigade, impacted on the ground next to their Tiger B, and a shell fragment lodged itself in Knispel’s head. Contrary to what Franz Kurowski maintains, the heavy tank itself didn’t take a penetrating hit, and didn’t catch fire, either. The commander of the other tank, Feldwebel Skoda, instantly hurried to the seriously wounded tank commander’s rescue, but his Tiger B was also hit, and Feldwebel Skoda killed in action.
In our view, Knispel was wounded on 27 April 1945 in the pre-dawn hours or in the morning. The injury that proved lethal, was due to the fact that Knispel, ignoring safety precautions, fought with his turret hatch open and without wearing his helmet, his head poking out of the open hatch, in order to be able to orient himself in the darkness and facilitate communication with the Panzer-Grenadiere who were riding on his vehicle. Soviet archival data also confirms that the accompanying Panzer-Grenadiere were riding on the German AFVs that attacked from the direction of Nové Ves towards Hill 222 that night.
Feldwebel Knispel was promptly transported to a military hospital but he died, on 28 April 1945, of his head injury, in Vrbovec, Moravia. He was buried there in a mass grave (according to other sources he was interred in an individual grave) together with his identification tag. " 
https://www.facebook.com/PeKoPublishing/photos/pcb.1851800738242970/1851800568242987
Link to Soviet Military map of that final engagement. AlternateWars (talk) 23:50, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  This indicates Kurowski is a source for Peko Publishing. Kurowski is well known for his historical fabrications and anything that cites his work as a source shouldn't be considered reliable/credible. Zawed (talk) 01:13, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Two things, firstly, find a source that isn't on Facebook. Secondly, extensive details about Knispel's death are not necessarily notable enough to include if there isn't much of an established notability about Knispel other than his being the object of Wehrmacht propaganda coupled with Kurowski's imagination. Mewnst (talk) 03:13, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Battle and Death writeup by Peko Publishing

message: Why is wikipedia evaluating the errors or not of credible historians? Wikipedia should just cite credible historians, not pretend to know better than them.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:1A3F:C906:2CAA:1001:43C4:F6F6 (talk) 15:53, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be right. The errors of those historians aren't particularly notable, so it's likely not worth mentioning in the article. Mewnst (talk) 08:06, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that if a credible historian (by RS) says it, it should be pointed out by Wikipedia. It's not the job of Wikipedia to asses where the historian sources come from or if they are accurate or not. If those historians afterwards correct the so called mistakes or other reputable sources point those out then there's a point on excluding the information but it's not the job of Wikipedians to do this process.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:1A3F:C906:5635:E185:4293:C4C0 (talk) 13:55, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the job of Wikipedia to use credible sources, actually. Mewnst (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but not to decide if a credible source is right or wrong which is being done if what is said by a RS source is being questioned because of another source they used.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:1A3F:C906:5635:E185:4293:C4C0 (talk) 17:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Making context for anyone reading, this specific IP has already been banned within a day of activity for racist statements in a talk page related to the "white genocide" conspiracy theory. Fair to say they haven't engaged in this talk page in good faith. Mewnst (talk) 02:11, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: This fabulation was erroneously repeated by several credible historians

message: Why did they remove from Kurt Knispel's article that the reason for his death was mortar fragments? The text is so badly edited that it looks like he was killed by Soviet tanks.
You can check with the very people who dug up Kurt Knispel that the reason for his death was a mortar and not a tank. 2804:7374:4000:1130:90D4:A0EE:D6D0:44D5 (talk) 06:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurt Knispel Death