Talk:Van Tuong Nguyen/Archive 1

message: 26,000 hits of heroin comes out to 65 hits per gram. Do some basic research people. The number of hits per gram of heroin is anywhere from 5 to 20, depending on purity. That's 2,000 to 8,000 hits per gram. How many people does that affect? Certainly not 2,000 to 8,000, as most drug addicts shoot up two or three times a day. That's 800 to 3,200 heroin sessions. And drug addicts don't have one session per year, otherwise we'd call them "moderate" drug users. 
Van Tuong Nguyen's crime would have adversely affected the lives of anywhere from six to 67 heroin users. Certainly a far cry from demolishing the lives of tens of thousands of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.121.101.232 (talk • contribs) 
:Those six to 67 users must have been quite rich. --Vsion 05:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The 26,000 number comes from Abdullah Tarmugi, the Speaker of the Parliament of Singapore. It is clearly indicated in the article as being a quote from that person. Evil Monkey - Hello 05:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: User:209.121.101.232 assumed 5 to 20 hits per gram, which seems very heavy to me. I believe the norm is more like 5 to 20 mg per dose. If we take the figure of 15mg heroin per dose, then it work out to be around 26,000 doses, which is Tarmugi's figure. --Vsion 06:52, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether the maths are correct or not, the quote is attributable to a real person as Evil Monkey suggests above, and is valid for inclusion in the article. Whether or not the maths behind the quote make any sense is not for us to judge. -- Longhair 09:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lie within a Crime

message: This is one thing that has been totally ignored in every article. Heres a few links to start it off:
Singapore's Blood Money
http://www.singapore-window.org/1020naus.htm
The Burma-Singapore Axis: Globalizing the Heroin Trade
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/BurmaSingapore_Drugs.html
These are very important issues Mattrix18 04:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, those are important issues, but on an article about drugs in Singapore in general, not on an article about one particular person convicted under Singapore's drug laws. Evil Monkey - Hello 05:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Singapore's links to Drug Lords 

message: The line:
It seem that the blood of Nguyen was on the hands of the Cambodian suppliers because they did not instruct Nguyen to remove all metallic objects to prevent it from setting off the alarm.
Should be either clarified to show that the suppliers where not concerned enough to advise Van on removing all metal objects so as not to undergo a search, or removed entirely. The message; however, sounds more of an assumption rather than something genuinely reported.
:Also, although I'm sure the suppliers couldn't give two hoots about Nguyen, I'm quite sure they cared a great deal about their 300g of heroin so either they did advise him, it didn't occur to them that it would be necessary or someone screwed up majorly and forgot to advise him. Either way, it's kind of irrelevant... 203.118.185.213 19:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Odd line

message: I'm not sure the section Support background is encyclopedic. Sounds more like speculation. Shall we remove it? Cnwb 00:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Already have. Evil Monkey - Hello 00:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Support background

message: --220.238.245.138 11:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Australia's most infamous Nguyen, then? Certainly the most well known. Anyway, "nothing more than a drug mule who would have been responsible for hundreds of deaths had he not been caught." that is true but all of those junkies deserve probably deserve to die for being so stupid.--220.238.103.41 01:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem is that there simply aren't hundreds of heroin related deaths in australia each year. That imported heroin would have been cut with other things (like sugar) and then sold in tiny little packets. Seems ridiculous to claim that those 4 kilos could have caused "hundreds" of deaths. Even the Herald Sun has stopped reporting the number heroin deaths so far this year as the figure is so much lower than the road toll figures that used acompany it. 131.172.4.44 02:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I didn't think amounts of deaths caused would even be that high or the people killed would even matter.--58.104.11.118 03:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Australia's most famous Nguyen?

message: Are there any ways of getting more articles from the Straits Times (main Singapore Newspaper) or other Singapore base media? All of the references are from Australian media. The website of the Straits Times gives some free articles but not much. Softgrow 06:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You can try http://www.channelnewsasia.com/ , but there's not much there that wasn't reported by the Australian media. --Vsion 07:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: and http://www.todayonline.com , hope that helps. - Mailer Diablo 19:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for Singapore Media

message: Has anyone seen an editorial or whatever with comments on the migating factors? I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice the irony in the migating factors are that he needed the money to pay of loansharks for his twin brother, a former heroin addict who got in debt defending drug and burglary charges (I guess the burglaries were to feed his drug habbit). At the very least, it suggests Nguyen is extremely selfish to fail to consider the effects the heroin he was muling would have on people just like his brother since he surely must have known how devastating it can be. Also, why did the brother need to get in 30k debt? Surely Australia has a decent legal aide system? 203.118.185.213 20:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess you've never dealt with the Australian legal aid system, then. And you are speculating. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

text: So one can disregard laws and kill people, or steal their luggage, or rape folks before one gets through immigration?  It doesn't work that way.  Perhaps the folks Van was smuggling for could've paid a few more dollars for a plane ticket that connects through an airport not in Singapore, but I'm sure those folks could care less whether Van lived or died.  They are almost certainly only upset at losing their cocaine. --BrownHornet21 21:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Migating factors

message: Editors, please do not edit the article to past tense until there is official confirmation of the execution taking place and Nguyen's death.
--Peter McGinley 21:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It should at least acknowledge that 6am has now passed  Astrokey44 22:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NOTE TO EDITORS: Do not edit until confirmation

message: I've protected this article, with the following notes. 'Edit warring. An offical source is required to confirm death, though it's likely hanging has occured. This is going to go on all day. Wait for word from Singapore'. We know it's likely, just wait for official confirmation of death rather than revert the article back and forth all day please. -- Longhair 22:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: can you please put a note on the Van Nguyen page itself about this - put the sentence you wrote above on the first paragraph of the main page, because otherwise wikipedia is out of date - "he faces execution by hanging at 6 am" should not be there because its now 6.50AM. singapore time. I dont see the need for protection either, reverts maybe, but current events arent usually protected are they? Astrokey44 22:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a news source. It doesn't matter if it's out of date by a few hours. An abundance of reverts could also disguise vandalism. The JPS 23:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection

message: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17435507-23109,00.html
The execution and death of Nguyen has now been officially confirmed by the Singapore government.
--Peter McGinley 23:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is now unprotected. -- Longhair 23:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Confirmation of the execution - OFFICIAL

message: Do we need this template on the article? This article is not about an event in the Australian legal system. Evil Monkey - Hello 00:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: His only link to the template is to the criminals section. The template isn't necessary and isn't entirely representative. -- Longhair 00:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|Australian crime}} 

message: Boat people trash like this Nguyen tuong Van are hardly worthy of appearing on wikipedia. We must not allow this biography of his to appear alongside other Vietnamese expatriots, as he- and the likes of him- does not deserve it. May he, and other "viet kieu" marijuana and drug dealers disappear into embarassing history. He is an embarassment to our communities overseas! We "Viet Kieu" must be proud of our accomplishments; but we must allow erase the shameful elements in our community. It is the only way of survival for the Vietnamese people overseas. User:Le Anh-Huy
:Wikipedia covers the good, the bad and the ugly of the world. Someone being "shameful" isn't, and never will be a grounds for deletion. Half of the articles would probably disappear overnight as we start deleting Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot… Evil Monkey - Hello 05:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I presume, Evil Monkey, that you aren't actually grouping yourself with Hitler or Pol Pot, although it certainly looks like it...  Sam Korn 13:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I am an Evil Monkey :-) Evil Monkey - Hello 22:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Trash

message: Van would have died within a 1/4 of a milisecond after he fell as he would have reached the end of his rope and with it his spinal cord would have being severed by the enormous force. Van would go into immediate medical shock(unconsciousness) from there he'd die from strangulation as he'd be deprived of oxygen. 
- there exists the possibility that he might have involuntarily released his bowels, urinated and vomitted as his muscles relaxed upon death. 
- death time(determined to be the time when his heart stops): 8-13minutes. Van was pronouced dead at 9.17am (AEST) which indicates he likely died about 8-10minutes into the execution. Though once again I stress that van would have lost all consciousness within 0.25 seconds of the trapdoor openning. 
- Van would have likely felt an instant(measured in miliseconds) of pain as nervous reactions travel close to the speed of light. 
- bruising/abrasion/cuts to the area where the noose was located is likely.
:Nice story.  Citations please?  Either way, what a horrific and animalistic way to die.  Only third world countries (or non-third world countries with equally inhumane stone-age mentalities) would enforce such abhorrent acts.  Jachin 07:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha...how very animatic. You knew he felt a tinch of pain? You tried it before? Death by hanging is actually considered one of the fastest and painless methods of execution, and is certainly far less inhumane than practically all other methods. Meanwhile, I didnt know the United States and Japan are "non-third world countries with inhumane stone-age mentalities"--Huaiwei 07:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't we try it on you and hear your report afterwards? You sound just like your President Mr. Lee. If it was someone you knew up for execution, I'm pretty sure you would be singing a different song. And don't give me that BS line about the Singapore justice system being omnipotent and executing only people who "deserve it."--69.231.237.71 08:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Just to name the three people executed in the US by the long-drop hanging method since 1977 - Billy Bailey, Westley Allan Dodd, Charles Campbell. Hanging is still available as a method of execution in Washington by choice and New Hampshire if lethal injection is found to be impratical. And as Huaiwei states, hanging is still used in Japan where executions are carried out relatively regularly. Evil Monkey - Hello 07:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: As for a citation - The process of judicial hanging, Delaware hanging protocol. Evil Monkey - Hello 07:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: In other words, your text was based merely on personal speculation, and fueled by your personal opinion on the matter. I dont think your commentary deserved much deliberation from now on then.--Huaiwei 08:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Thats fuuny. Why am I made out to be an e-thug, when all I am doing is voicing my POV in response to yours? As far as anti-capital punishment adovacates are concerned, anyone who happens to oppose their views are inherently being "critical", "unhelpful", and basically a bully? If you may simply refer to the references provided by Evil Monkey, my statements where actually supported. Could you provided any reference to back up what you say?--Huaiwei 15:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How He Died

message: I was going to delete something on the article, but I can't seem to find it on the edit page, why is that? I was going to delete this...
"i love you van..you will always be in my heart i hope you go to heaven. You didnt deserve this..you had your whoel life ahead of you i cried so much for you van you are an insparation to me you showed great honour i love you darling love Terri-Lea xoxo xoxo"
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.126.118.74 (talk • contribs) 
*Someone probably got there before you. --Last Malthusian 23:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I can't seem to delete something...

message: I deleted this link as it is horribly biased and, generally, an inaccurate POV. However, if people do disagree (and provide a reason) then feel free to put the link back. dr.alf 14:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: WMA File of American Media reaction from The Michael Savage Show

message: This article is extremely POV to the fact that Van Nyugen shouldn't die. He is a convicted drug dealer found in possession of 300g of Herion, with a large street value. He was fully aware of his actions and consequences in the Singaporian Legal System, thus he must face the implications of being found guilty. No doubt about it, you break the law, you get the punishment, he should have thought of that before being so stupid and careless.
I've put the NPOV tag up for now. Someone please make this less POV.
*If you're going to tag a front-page article as POV you need to be far more specific about which sections you find POV and how, not just "this article demonstrates such and such a POV, this POV is wrong, here is the POV which is correct". Giving your own POV in particular and admitting that it's opposite to the article's supposed POV doesn't demonstrate particularly good faith in adding the tag. --Last Malthusian 18:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to raise an eyebrow, but it does indeed look like vandalism, or at least an unhealthy pattern.  It would probably be good if this article made more clear that this is not really an article about a drug smuggler, but rather an article about the public debate over international capital punishment that suddenly arose.  There seems to be concern from some people that too much space is being dedicted to a convicted criminal. --Stevage 22:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes the article could be improved, by people tackling the things on the todo list at the top.  The dissent (from Wilson Tuckey and others) isn't yet mentioned at all (along with the issue of trade sanctions), and other issues are a bit thin. I will chase up references and fill in the gaps over time (unless someone else does :-> )Softgrow 01:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

text: As per Stevage's comment. How about an article Australian response to capital punishment? Same issue will be faced during the Bali Nine's trial. 69.234.62.72 03:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea, but a better first topic might be Capital Punishment in Australia which could look at the history of it, its eventual abolition, Australian overseas and diplomatic work in the area. This would feat neatly in :Category:Capital punishment by country. Softgrow 03:33, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You link to categories (and images) like so :Category:Capital punishment by country. Evil Monkey - Hello 03:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NOT NEUTRAL! TAG IN PLACE!

message: Is he related to Dat Nguyen of the Dallas Cowboys?
: I don't know, but Nguyen is a common vietnamese surname, with about 40% of the population. 69.234.62.72 10:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is even a Dr Nguyen Tuong Van who runs the intensive care unit at the Centre for Tropical Diseases in Hanoi and has treated 41 victims of H5N1.  Evil Monkey - Hello 20:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems a disambiguation notice is necessary. — Instantnood 21:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: lol! Are you going to write articles for every Van Tuong Nguyen you know?--Huaiwei 03:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the medical doctor notable enough? — Instantnood 08:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, again I ask...are you going to write the article? Secondly, more or less notable than this Nguyen?--Huaiwei 13:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps not as notable, but notable enough. — Instantnood 14:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So if he is notable enough, where is the article?--Huaiwei 14:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Is everything notable enough to have its own article already has one? — Instantnood 14:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: ahahah "asshat".  terrific.  Taco325i 23:56, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not some MSN chatroom. Simpsons are not related. Please make your discussions elesewhere. Thank You. --Terence Ong |Talk 15:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Related?

message: I'm a bit suprised that this article makes no reference to the actual court transcript and relies entirely on media articles. One of the things I'm uncertain about is contained in this excerpt taken from Public Prosecutor vs Van Tuong Nguyen:
 Sometime in October this year, I was in need of money. I had to pay a debt which I took to pay for my twin brother, Khoa Nguyen, lawyer fees. I owed about A$20,000 to A$25,000 in total to a friend. My friend is Jonathan Lim, Australia Chinese. He did not press me for payment but I knew he needed the money. There was also an A$12,000 loan which my twin brother took that I needed to repay on his behalf. He only had until the end of this year to pay up that loan. I did not intend to let my twin brother know that I am paying his debt. I had managed only to repay about A$4,000 for a period of 8 to 10 months already but that was just enough to cover for the interests incurred. The A$4,000 was my earnings from my job as a sales marketing executive. My brother’s lawyer’s fees were as a result of one drug case and one affray case he got into about 3 years ago. Since then my brother had been in debts. I had been helping him in the repayment of loans for the entire three years. 
Due to the broken english it is difficult to tell what Van actually meant. Did he himself borrow A$20,000 to assist with his brother's case or was this his own personal debt? Was the other A$12,000 simply his brother's portion of the debt for legal fees resulting in a drug case and an affray (public brawling?) case? If the debt was indeed a case of Van taking out A$20k-$25k to pay for his brother's legal fees and his brother taking out another A$12k for the same purpose then the total debt was actually between A$32k-A$37k
In regards to being under duress the article is a bit vague about this. In the current article it states:
In his police statement, he admitted that he knew he was transporting heroin but added that he had feared for the safety of his family and that prevented him from backing away from the assignment.
While this statement is partly true, it neglects to address the fact that in the beginning he was under no illusions as to what he was about to do. Again from the same transcript:
Sometime in the first week of November, a male Chinese known to me as “Tan” contacted me. He asked me whether I was sure I would do something. I told him yes.
...
I had earlier asked him for help and told him that I needed quick money. His response to me at that time was he would see what he could do.
Sometime in mid November this year, I made a trip to Sydney following “Tan’s” instructions. When I arrived at Pacific International Hotel, one male Vietnamese “Sun” contacted me. He explained to me exactly what I am going to do and asked me if I am going to do it. He told me that I would be carrying a package from Cambodia to Singapore to Melbourne and possibly Sydney. He told me that the package contained “white”. I understood that as heroin. It could have been cocaine. But I do not know if it is heroin or cocaine. However I was quite certain that it contained drugs. I told “Sun” that I would do it. 
It would appear that he was under no duress until he actually obtained the illicit substance from the person in Cambodia:
He then handed over the bag and warned me not to back out or chicken out again. I asked him if he were sure that the 2 plastic packets of heroin to be strapped to my back and he again warned me not to mess it up as someone would be watching over me.
While I have not been able to vouch for the authenticity of this document, if it is an accurate transcript of the legal proceedings then perhaps the article needs to be amended to remove this ambiguity and possible bias?
::The article has contained references to the court judgement summarys (currently located in the External Links section) for some time. I've certainly used them for the arrest and the beginning of the trials section. I think you might be right about the amount owed as being about $35,000 not $25,000. I can't see any inconsistency though in the second paragraph of the Trials section with regards to bias.Softgrow 11:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccurate information?

message: Can anyone in Canberra please confirm or provide sources to allegations that the Singaporean embassy was attacked with water balloons filled with red paint at approximately 9:12AM, Monday the 5th of December?  An associate of mine who resides in Canberra saw a large group of young men hanging around the building, two of which began pelting it with red paint filled water balloons.  I feel it's reflective of the Australian sentiment about the matter and therefore worthy of being brought into the article, however secondary confirmation is required. Jachin 22:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Attack on Singapore Embassy

message: Hello,Mr. Teo.Shouldn't it be his name (Nguyen Tuong Van)?--Tan Ding Xiang 陈鼎翔 09:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh?--Huaiwei 09:37, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you got it all mixed up. According to official sources it is Van Tuong Nguyen. --Terenceong1992 10:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Singapore officials consistently use "Nguyen Tuong Van". For Australian officials and media, they use both "Nguyen Tuong Van"  and "Van Tuong Nguyen", with usage almost split right in the middle (hmm ... sounds familiar?) --Vsion 12:24, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So should we rename the article accordingly?--Huaiwei 12:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No we shouldn't. I'm confused now. So which is which. We should use the name that is used commonly. --Terenceong1992 15:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On google, Van Tuong Nguyen = 96,500 hits  while Nguyen Tuong Van = 592,000 . The difference seems significant enough to be renamed?--Huaiwei 13:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Are you able to give verified and factual proof that "His name is most frequently used in English-language media in the order Van Tuong Nguyen"? That he is Australian is of entirely no consequence, for once again, you appear to believe Asians who move to the West are somehow compelled to rename themselves. Where is your evidence that this was so? The entire discussion over how his name is addressed is again inconsequential as well, for what we are concerned is how his full name is displayed.--Huaiwei 10:58, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you able to verify the "Nguyen Van Tuong" you've got in the Google test are all referring to him? My previous comment on the popularlity of that order in English-language media is based on what I've read. It's only my experience, and is hardly a scientific assessment. — Instantnood 13:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How would you verify otherwise?--Huaiwei 11:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: If I recall correctly, names in non-Western style are written in Western style in the naturalised country by convention, applying to other Asian names as well. I have no source for this, but general usage in Australia would be "Van Tuong Nguyen" and he would be styled as "Mr Nguyen". --Scottie theNerd 10:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name order