Talk:Franz Bäke

message: "In battles against General George Patton's US Third Army, Bäke's brigade fought with spirit, halting several attacks and destroying many American tanks."
In what alternate reality did this happen? Panzer Brigades first and only really known action against Third Army was the attack against the 90th Division and was an utter debacle with the unit losing upwards of 75% of its tanks and infantry in a single day. Although it was rebuilt and continued to serve, it basically disappears from history for the rest of the war in the west. Even Panzer Aces, which has 70 page chapter on him, devote a pitiful 3 paragraphs (half a page) to his time in France (also doesn't even mention the debacle with the 90th Division attack).
I'm not sure where these multiple attacks by 3rd Army which were halted with many US tanks destroyed by 106 occurred or when.Wokelly (talk) 03:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't help with Bäke's time with the unit, but the 106th later went to the Nineteenth Army in Alsace and only played minor roles there.  Bäke, meanwhile, had apparently big moved away from the Western Front to other roles.  Rolf Stoves' Die gepanzerten und motorisierten deutschen Grossverbände 1935 - 1945 on p. 322 mentions the "destruction" of a U.S. tank battalion by the 106th Brigade sometime between 7 and 11 September 1944 (according to other sources, this apparently occurred on 9 September) around the area between Oberkorn and Dippach, Luxembourg.  Stoves states 26 U.S. tanks and 8 armored cars were destroyed in this battle. My guess is that this is what the Bäke article is mentioning. I'd have to look at other sources to see if I can find any confirmation of Stoves' statement, the location of the battle points to either the 90th Division to the south or the 5th Armored Division to the north. This page shows the situation map of 12 September 1944. W. B. Wilson (talk) 12:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

text: This page includes commentary by Steve Zaloga about the battle the Germans claim to have fought near Oberkorn-Dippach. W. B. Wilson (talk) 12:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

text: I went over the AAR of the 712th Tank Battalion (too far to the SW on 9 September) and the history of the 5th Armored Division. No losses of this kind mentioned by these documents or in the U.S. official history volumes "The Lorraine Campaign" and "The Siegfried Line Campaign".  In fact, all tank losses of the 5th AD for the entire month of September are less than what the Germans claimed. Maybe the Germans fought a tank destroyer unit, but I think it more likely that the German claims were exaggerated in their AAR, and that subsequent looks by historians of the 106th Panzer Brigade uncritically accepted these claims and that is why these claims are seen in some books and also here at Wikipedia. W. B. Wilson (talk) 13:36, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info. Only thing I was able to find was this thread: http://www.ww2f.com/topic/21835-franz-b%C3%A4ke/page-2. Good stuff from a guy in Luxembourg half way down, but not exactly material you can cite here on Wiki. Wokelly (talk) 16:57, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for mentioning that thread. I thought I had looked at this action at some point before, but forgot it at some point in the last four years.  Yes, Caranorn was a good man to correspond with. W. B. Wilson (talk) 17:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Panzer Brigade 106