Talk:Telshe Yeshiva

message: *From User talk:IZAK#Rabbinical College of Telshe:
Rabbinical College of Telshe
Can you leave the article alone? As an alumnus of the Rabbinical College of Telshe, who has documented the history of the Institution for the insititue itself and for government purposes, I find myself qualified to work on the article. The name of the institute is the Rabbinical College of Telshe. Not Telshe yeshiva, not Telshe, not Telz. It may be colloquially referred to by all these terms, but as this is an encyclopedia, entries are to be made under their names, not under pseudonyms. Someone more qualified than you comes along, spends hours on an article and you butcher it. Doubtlessly, I'm going to receive a long winded self righteous emotional response as always from you, perhaps on someone else's page too. I wonder how you would feel if you wrote something that you were qualified to write on and someone who was not qualified butchered it. Telzer 08:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With regards to name preferences, it would make sense that in an Encyclopedia, the correct name should be used. That is the Rabbinical College of Telshe. Problem with that, however, is all the many links to Telz Yeshiva. To my knowledge, there are no links to Telshe Yeshiva. If it must stay Telshe Yeshiva, let's make it Telshe Yeshiva (capital y in yeshiva) and not Telshe yeshiva. I will also ammend this point in the opening paragraph of the article, which claims the yeshiva has numerous names. It has only one name but is colloquially referred to by other names. Many thanks Telzer 02:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Telzer: Wikipedia naming conventions call for a small "y" in the case of "Telz yeshiva" (or if you prefer: "Telshe yeshiva") because in any case, as you correctly note, it's not even the yeshiva's official name. Please read Wikipedia:Guide to layout and Wikipedia:Tutorial (Formatting) for more information about this. Thank you. IZAK 06:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Crz, and of course Izak, who seems to be watching certain people's user talk pages, I don't know if you want to bother working on my initial suggestions. It seems that someone has already gone to work on it and arrived at a different conclusion. I've worked for hours on preparing a rework of the entire article as it is pathetic in scope and information. I don't think, however, that I will bother completing it as individuals who don't really know that much about the place have a habit of altering parts of it. Any true disciple of the Rabbinical College of Telshe values highly academic accuracy and so I find some of the alterations intolerable. Thanks for your time anyway. Telzer 08:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. If "naming conventions" call for a small "y" even when the name "Yeshiva" is incorporated into the legal name of the institute, then someone should change the entry Yeshiva University to yeshiva University. Telzer 08:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Telzer: That's precisely the point, Yeshiva University is its legal name so then it is correct to have upper-case (capital letters) "Y" & "U". But "Telshe yeshiva" is it's common name and not it's legal name, so then it is correct for it to be "Telshe yeshiva" on Wikipedia. My impression was that you were using the "Y" in "Telshe Yeshiva" as an honorific for the institution, and not as a matter of  "legalese." If you look at the :Category:Orthodox yeshivas, you will see that some yeshivas are referrred to by their legal names whereas others are referred to by their common names or popular names. In all cases, whichever is ultimately chosen (and Wikipedia must consider the  fact that a name has popular usage that may  outweigh the need for using a legal name, as long as it's stated in the introduction), WP:REDIRECT will have to be utilized to connect common names with legal names and vice versa. IZAK 09:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Best name for the institution and this article

message: Izak, I will reiterate the following points.
*The official and registered name of the institution is the Rabbinical College of Telshe. An encyclopedia would list things by their official name, not colloquialisms.
*If, as you have pointed out, the entry should be found under the name by which it is commonly referred to, then the name should be Telz or Telzer Yeshiva. Few people refer to the institute by it's Russian pronounciation (Telshe) but rather by it's Yiddish pronounciation (Telz).
*The registered name of the branch in Chicago is Telshe Yeshiva - Chicago. (You may refer to the external link on the site for US Colleges.) Therefore yeshiva requires a captial "Y" as in the instance of Yeshiva University. (I will post this on the Telshe Chicago discussion page.)
*I'd also like to know the source for your assertion that "yeshiva" must be spelled with a lower case "y" when used in the title of various yeshivas. Universities do not seem to use these guidelines and use a capital "U" in university. Grammatically, when a word is used as a specific noun, it has a capital. For example, bridge. When used in a title, like, George Washington Bridge, the "B" in bridge becomes a capital. (See http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTravel/bridges/html/gwb.html). Thus, in the instance of a specific yeshiva, such as "Mir Yeshiva" the "y" should be capitalized too.
*While you have corrected certain points based on Wikipedia guidelines, I am going to revert any alterations which remove historical information, such as dates, etc. I am also going to correct grammatical errors.
Cheers. Telzer 03:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuation of the discussion

message: 1) With regards to yeshiva's not originally having used "formal Anglicized" names, which they do, however, use now, I quote to you Izak, the very words which you wrote on my talk page on June 14th: 'Hi: It doesn't matter what was or "wasn't around 20/30 years ago" because we are dealing with the-here-and-now'. A tad inconsistent, eh old boy?
*Telzer what was the context of that? Even in modern times everyone I know of in the yeshiva world doesn't calll it "Rabbinical College of Telshe" but they call it "Telz" and the way they write about it in Jewish observer-type articles and books is "Telshe" and that too is "modern-day", so I don't know what you're carrying-on about. IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Responses to Izak's comments 

message: 1.) It’s very simple. As you’ve evidently lost track of the discussion, I will remind you. Try and keep focus prior to getting emotional. As with any discussion about naming an article, I put forth all the options, which are: the legally registered name of the institute, and various commonly used names. (At this stage I had pointed out two naming issues. Use either the official name or a commonly used one. I had not made any suggestion as to which name should be used for the article. I had just listed them as options and the reasons why.) In response to this you stated unequivocally that yeshivas in Europe did not have official names but were simply known by their town’s names. You also, for some reason, stated that I was “belittling” the commonly used names. In response, I replied by quoting you that we must deal with the here-and-now, not the past. Accordingly, your argument that since the yeshivas of old did not use official names and therefore they should be discounted today, is an invalid argument, as you say, we are dealing with the here-and-now. Thus, we now return to my original point, that there are two options for naming the article. One is to use the official name of the school, the other is to use one of the commonly used names. At this stage, I still have not made any decision which one I feel is the better option. I’ve still only pointed out the options and that your logic employed to disqualify one of these options, is not valid on account of other statements you’ve made. Hopefully, now you know what I’m carrying on about, i.e., there are two options for naming this article in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools).
On a very side note. Your assertion that institutes in Europe did not have official names or use them is incorrect. They did have official names, but just as is our day and age, they were commonly referred to by their cities. In official documentation, they used their official names.
I’m not sure why you bring the “Jewish Observer” publication into this. Here’s a link to an article by Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller, the Rosh Yeshiva of Telshe Yeshiva Chicago. http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/jo/tworld/rbloch.html  (I imagine he’s qualified on the topic) The article was featured in the said publication, the Jewish Observer. Interestingly, he refers to the “Telshe Yeshiva” with a capital “Y”. (He also refers to the “Telzer Derech” with capital “D”, after all, it too becomes a proper noun.)  
2.) Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools).
3.) See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools). Even if one were to choose version 2 in the naming conventions, Quote -
Version 2:
	School articles titles should use the most common name for the school that does not conflict with the names of other schools. If there are other school articles that would have the same name, to disambiguate, the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parentheses. End quote.
It clearly states that “to disambiguate, the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parentheses.” Certainly not the need for a complete disambiguation page. Furthermore, since the official name of the institute in Chicago (Telshe Yeshiva – Chicago) incorporates what version 2 calls for in terms of disambiguation, there is no doubt that the page should be called either Telshe Yeshiva Chicago (or use parentheses) to differentiate and not a disambiguation page used.
4.) That’s really nit picking. I write an entire paragraph trying to reason why perhaps the ”y” should be capital and once refer to the institute as Yeshivas Telz (the yeshiva of Telz for anyone not fluent with Hebrew) and all you can focus on is that? What about the point of the paragraph? We concur that Telshe is a town in Lithuania. Telshe Yeshiva is a yeshiva from that town. In it’s own right, yeshiva is a common noun. When, however, the word becomes part of a title, it becomes a proper noun. Like World Wide Web. Yes, in their own rights, these three words are not capitalized, but when combined to form a proper noun, they are. Another example, Kenston High School. High school does not require a capital “S”, however, when used as a proper noun, the “S” is capitalized. The word university does not require a capital letter, however, when part of a name, it does. For example Ohio State University.
5.) This is not the second time that I am bringing up the point. I am merely seeking to clarify the point originally made. The original point never stated that there did exist any such errors, but that were any to exist, I would rectify them. It’s clearly in future tense. As a matter of fact, however, I will specify below two such examples. I’ve carefully read Wikipedia:No personal attacks and I am clearly not in any violation. There may be, however, an issue of you wikilawyering. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Responses to Izak's responses

message: Whew, what a read. Here's my two cents.
First, Telshe/Telz:
Where does "Telshe" come from? According to the article (Telšiai), that is its Yiddish name. However, according to this article, it is its "Russian" name. It seems that the name was historically spelled Telshe but pronounced Telz (Telze?), since the yeshiva seems to refer to itself as Telshe ("Rabbinical College of Telshe", "Telshe Yeshiva - Chicago"). In that case, the proper spelling is indeed "Telshe."
Now, for Yeshiva/yeshiva:
If the commonly used name of the place is simply Telshe, then "Telshe yeshiva" makes sense, since we are talking about a yeshiva by the name of Telshe. Similarly for Mir. But Telzer is saying that the institution is known as "Telshe Yeshiva," in which case that has become its proper name, and if that's so, I believe it should be capitalized. What I find interesting is that in the letter linked by Telzer (), Rabbi Keller refers to the yeshiva as "the Telshe Yeshiva" 3 times, but as simply "Telshe Yeshiva" only once. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but "the Telshe Yeshiva" sounds like "the yeshiva in Telshe" (he also calls it "the yeshiva in Telshe" and the "Yeshivah of Telshe" once each). That would mean that the yeshiva was originally simply known by its location, but its name was not really "Telshe." Of course, this is no longer the case. To my mind, the question is: is "Telshe" its full name, or a shortening? Is it "Telshe, the yeshiva" or "Telshe Yeshiva?" Or perhaps it is still "the Telshe yeshiva" ... If it is actually "Telshe Yeshiva," it should be capitalized.
However, it is not really known by its "official" name of "Rabbinical College of Telshe," so that should not be the title of the article. --Eliyak 15:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If redirects always take you to the page, it seems to me it matters less where the main article resides; Why is wiki policy stringent on that?  No offense to alumni of Chicago branch, but looking up Telshe should lead you to Cleveland before Chicago.  
on the capital Y in yeshiva: if the yeshiva had an S at the end, you could see it as a modifier.  Where you drop the posessive, it becomes part fo the proper name.  Let's use Telshe Yeshiva  Rabbi-m 04:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming discussion 

message: It is common knowledge that the Jewish Community in Eastern Europe was not wealthy, with many Jews living below the poverty line. The historical fact that in 1894, the Telshe Yeshiva managed to finance the construction of a purpose-designed building is impressive and historically noteworthy. It is substantially more costly to design then build a brand new building than to simply purchase a pre-existing one. It also tells us that forethought went into the design of the new building to ensure it was perfectly suited to a yeshiva.
Hence, I am reverting the ‘purpose-built’ information. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical fact

message: The correct spelling of Talmudic study is not Tlamudic study. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling

message: Telzer Derekh is a proper noun and thus ‘derekh’ should be capitalized. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proper noun

message: While the Roshei Yeshiva of the Telz Yeshiva have all played leading roles in the Agudath Israel organization, the yeshiva itself is not officially associated with the Agudath Israel. Rabbi Mordechai Gifter recounted that someone once asked the Telzer Rav why he directed students to become members of the Agudath Israel and not the Mizrachi movement. Rabbi Bloch responded that the yeshiva did not formally encourage students to join the Agudah, but that it was a student's own prerogative. True, the yeshiva participates in the same social conclaves that the Agudah does, but it is not officially associated with the Agudah. That being the case, I am going to remove the statement that it is affiliated with Agudath Israel.
*Hello anonymous anon, could you please sign all comments with the four tildes ~~~~... as this helps to know who is saying what to whom and when. Thank you. IZAK 07:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Affiliation with Agudath Israel

message: Hi, I am not officially mediating this case, but I will try to help.  Please remember to stay civil.  Be sure to comment on the content and not the contributor.  You may wish to appeal to a broader community for input by asking at the Village pump, posting a Wikiquette alert, or filing a Request for Comment.  Ideogram 09:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation request 

message: Move to Rabbinical College of Telshe. The article for the baseball stadium in Chicago is not Wrigley, the one in Montreal the Big 'O' or do we take this to :WP:RM? --Shuki 20:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  move page to proper name 

message: Telzer: Please do not use the link "Orthodox" alone. It's only a redirect to an article about "Orthodoxy" including the Christian variety. Please use Orthodox Judaism or dab it as Orthodox Thanks. IZAK 15:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Orthodox]] alone is not a suitable Wikilink for this article. 

message: Is this dispute still active?  --Ideogram 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still see it on the Mediation Cabal worklist as waiting for a mediator. I'm considering joining the MedCab and tacking this case. Torinir ( Ding my phone My support calls E-Support Options ) 21:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There hasn't been any activity for over a week.  I'll close it; you can reopen it if need be.  --Ideogram 21:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation active? 

message: Howdy,
There are currently small articles on both Birchas Chaim and Mesoras Mordechai. I'm unsure if either school passes the test of notability. What makes this yeshiva highschool particularly special that it gets an encyclopedia article? The curriculum is unremarkable in both and the each have only a handful of students.  At this point, IMHO, they should be removed and any information about them should be folded into the Telz article.  Unless objections are voiced I will be putting them up for AfD with a recommendation to merge the articles here.  Joe407 (talk) 08:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well birchas chaim is not completely telz, even though Rabbi Shmuel Zalmen Stein was instructed to open it by his father. The way of learning is more similar to the [Beth Medrash Govohah| Lakewood yeshivah]] style. But the customs etc. are more telz like.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadeah vhadibur (talk • contribs) 01:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  merge branches 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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