Talk:Kyiv/naming/Archive 8

message: Clearly, consensus to move the article to Kyiv does not appear likely to be crystallizing in the foreseeable future (which is, for our purposes, many months). Several dictionaries I consulted all depict Kiev as the primary name and Kyiv as the Ukrainian one. I note that Britannica and Encarta are split on the issue (with the former favouring Kiev and the latter Kyiv). A google scholar result give Kiev ten times more results than Kyiv. It goes on, but it does appear that Kiev is the common English name, and it is probably not productive going over the matter seemingly indefinitely, and increasingly circularly. Let's wait and see in, say, six months to a year (perhaps at that time kmv.gov.ua/en/index.asp will be back online), if there's been any changes that increase the prevalence of Kyiv — Wikipedia cannot become part of the process, however. Thx. El_C 23:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And before Holro responds to this with his usual "Hello, thank you for comments but..." usual flood, I would like to add that I removed the WP:RM box from Talk:Kiev and if it is added in the immediate future "(which is, for our purposes, many months)", it will be reverted on sight. I call upon all parties to leave this page to Horlo and resume productive mainspace editing. --Irpen 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrapping this up 

message: (The subject line is a quote from El C's in response to Horlo's  question why not give the RfC the time as announced.) 
I guess I'm was wrong in hoping for more thoughtful guidance out of this impasse. What I saw 199.125.109.19 trying to do was to let us see the whole Wiki editor landscape on the naming issue. This is what is this naming issue needs, a full venting of opinions, a poll of all the editors who have made contributions in this subject area, or as many that can be asked to provide an contribution. Comments and endless counterrebuttals should only be listed further down the page or on user talk pages. It's easier to compromise and negotiate if one can see/read opinions from a large number of editors. Let them/us knock themselves/ourselves out.
Arbitrarily shutting down the RfC because the discussion has become rowdy (see "Gordian knot" @ User talk:El C) only frustrates particants and really wont make the issue go away. El C would have helped if he (forgive me if he is not really a he) limited his observations to what is the landscape amongst editors and worked on negotiating through the impasse. Instead describing his own Google searches and opinion has the affect of reducing his mediation to one more "oppose" contribution. I expect that Wiki editors behaving like other normal adults will know when they are summarily and needlessly shut down/out and it is expected and normal that they will not accept this. So much for closure. 74.121.238.102 03:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My own cursory overview is just an aside; you may take it to be as revealing as you wish. El_C 03:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I too cannot understand the rush to close this discussion. Let the sides vent, however I do welcome the idea of reoppening the discussion after the elections. Certainly the media will reflect the current trend in naming the city and it may give us a better indication of which term to use. Bandurist 13:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...because, I, the closing admin, deemed it, erm, closeable." : El-C 

message: Hello,
Actually, I said that it was a city, you said "Now substitute "Mount Everest" with "Kiev" and "Qomolangma" with "Kyiv". What exactly is your point in that sentence? Perhaps I am misenterpreting that you want to compare the city to the mountain, when you said that. Perhaps, on the other hand, you missed the entire point of that entire section, which says that cities are inherently different from mountains, and even though the mountain's preferred name for itself can be ignored, the city's preferred name for itself should be considered when making a decision.
Here is the rest of the quote you provided: Some cases are less clear-cut. There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name. For example, US newspapers generally refer to the Olympics in Torino even though most English texts still call the city Turin. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world still use Turin. One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead. Please show me where it talks about "incorrect" names.
It says "one should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising". It mentions nothing of correct or incorrect. It goes on to give a typical example of testing the usage by google hits. It says nothing of google being the only, or even the best criterion.
Do you have anything else about: However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception?
Thanks,
Horlo 04:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuing debate 

message: Could we all try to use indenting because that makes it easier to follow who's responding to whom.  
: Responding.  
:: Responding to response. 
: Replying to first comment, but not the next two. - Jehochman  Talk 05:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indenting 

message: I am afraid people are not realizing that this drive for name change is not triggered by some teenage nationalists but by a serious underlying issues. First of all you have to realize that millions of people in Ukraine now deal with Kyiv spelling in all foreign language media, including the major English language newspaper Kyiv Post. For them the Kiev spelling is a gross injustice, even though it is still current in many places. That's why it is not going away any time soon. Yes, the gov't of Ukraine has no business dictating what the English word should be, but neither did the Chinese gov't with Peking-Beijing issue. Moreover, there are a million and a half of ethnic Ukrainians in North America alone, for whom English is not a foreign language but their own and they also have been instrumental to bring the new spelling into use. Sweeping it under the rug and declaring it none of Ukrainians' business is wrong. By virtue of English being mother tongue of so many Ukrainians and of it being an international language it does matter what Ukrainians want their capital city be called. The problem is that unlike in Pekin-Beijing issue there was no powerful opposition to the name change, there were no other nation with imperialist dreams of preserving Peking as the only true name. Apart from lingustic issue it is deeply rooted into politics as well. For millions of people this has been a decided issue for almost a decade, it is just a matter of time until Wikipedia catches up. --Hillock65 21:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am sorry you misunderstood, I am not turning it into anything. It already is. If it was a language issue only, it would have been solved years ago. --Hillock65 22:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see WP:NPA. Discuss the issue, not me. I didn't even claim the gov't should choose foreign spelling. Where did you find it in the above text? --Hillock65 00:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Please explain to me how it is a personal attack as I am obviously stating your actions. Reginmund 00:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, the topic of this discussion is not me. Please stay away from discussing what I caused and what I am turning something into. The topic of discussion is the name change or gov't role in it - so stick to it. --Hillock65 01:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not discussing you. I'm discussing why the government isn't a factor because it doesn't even implement the English language as an official language. Reginmund 01:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does it matter 

message: Which name is used for the airport of town in the international flight booking systems? --Soman 21:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I found a spreadsheet that you can download directly from the iata website, here: http://www.iata.org/search.htm?q=airport+codes+for+ukraine&sc=all. The code for the airport itself is KBP. IATA also uses Kyiv. Thanks, Horlo 01:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also Page 78 of this IATA doc  confirms that the use of "Kyiv" on the IATA list of city/airport pairs. Hope that helps Eduvalko 01:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The used to use IEV for Kyiv. Looks like they have changed over. I wonder when Wikipedia finally will? I feel like we are working with a bunch of dinosaurs. Bandurist 03:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this debate is taking a long time, and I'd like to see a change too!  However, people look at things in different ways, and unfortunately some people might take offence at being called dinousaurs.  I'm guilty of thinking less of a post if it appears to contain something I find offensive to myself.60.242.0.245 07:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  I apologise for any offence I may have caused, but it is somewhat frustrating seeing a process that I would consider qute straitforward being slowed down so much. Bandurist 10:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I used to live down the road from Zuliany - on Sevastopolska Ploshcha. I totally forgot about this charming little airport and the numerous times I lost baggage there. Bandurist 10:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  IATA? 

message: Hello,
I think now that everybody has had a chance to sit back and think about it for a while, it may be a good idea to re-state some arguments.
I think that the name of the article should be Kyiv for the following reasons:
1.   It is a self-identifying term. It is the name that Kyiv has chosen for itself through a statement by the democratically elected government.
2.   It is more common in current usage. The google test is too close to call. Just now, the numbers are 1,950,000 for Kiev,  and 1,740,000 for Kyiv,  According to other criteria, as listed on the naming conflict page, ALL major international organizations use Kyiv (UN, NATO, OSCE, Red Cross, World Bank, etc.). Media use both, but it is important to remember that Wikipedia does not necessarily follow what media uses, as for example the Wikipedia page is Myanmar, while many media organizations use Burma. Other encyclopedia are split 2:1 (Britannica and Groliers use Kiev, while Encarta uses Kyiv). ALL English-speaking governments use Kyiv.
Because of that, I think the article should be moved to Kyiv. I would be happy to hear any arguments against.
Thanks,
Horlo 01:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a very nice and quiet time on this page. I thought who would break the harmony first and I guessed right. Now, can we have some more quiet and use the time on Wikipedia content writing? --Irpen 02:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Be careful with Google tests.  That may dredge up a lot of old pages.  Perhaps we should run a Google News test, looking for references during the last 30 days, and see what's more prevalent.  I don't know the result, but that seems like it could be more accurate. - Jehochman  Talk 04:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, it turns out that the meditation didn't work Horlo is up to his classic lying and twisting words again. Yes I said that Google follows the media and that Google also follows the Google test which are two of the many criteria in determining a name. How is this contradictory? Now you are going on about how the goverment was democratically elected, about how wonderful Radisson is, how my points are not indicators of commonality but yours are, I already made it clear that they also use both spellings. Governments or organisations don't have a manual of style. So, you are wrong. Kyiv is not limited to all English-speaking governemnts.They may use different names depending on the editor. I also don't understand how the fact that the U.N. uses Kyiv more shows that the Google test is unreliable. Those two criteria are completely irrelevant to each other. The fact that Kiev is six times more popular on Google (apparently when searching the American Google) goes to show something else. Organisations, goverments, thee  media, and companies don't determine the common name, they only contribute to it. Reginmund 04:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Step 3