Talk:Dominion of Melchizedek/Archive 2

message: It's worth pointing out here that Gene_poole is actually a member of a micronation - Atlantium - and has been using this page to promote their agenda, deleting the micronations less serious than them under the argument that they are "not notable". When protests are made, he gets his buddies in to claim that micronationalists from the simulationist sector have a conflict of interest, whilst failing to point out that he too is a micronationalist. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and that is also applicable where deletions are made in order to keep a sector of micronationalism off the wiki in order to promote a secessionist agenda. --Graius 11:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Readers should note that the above statement is a deliberately misleading speculation, originally posted on an unrelated talk page, which has has no relevance to this discussion. --Gene_poole 04:18, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quoted from the micronation talk page about Gene Poole's possible agenda 

message: Vandalism in progress was listed for this page, due to reverts that had no consensus Davidpdx 03:24, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reported Vandalism 

message: Davidpdx, I admit I reverted too much in 24 hours, losing track of time, but just read on the 3RR page, "First, check if you actually did make a fourth revert in 24 hours or very close to it."  Fortunately, I don't think I went this far, but appologize for so many reverts.  Perhaps this will end up with my request for dispute resolution.Johnski 02:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR 

message: Johnski/207.47.122.10 you have violated the 3RR rule by reverting this page more then 4 times in 24 hours. Davidpdx 02:40, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violation of 3RR Rule 

message: While supporters of Melchizedek assert that it is an "ecclesiastical sovereignty," similar to Vatican City, and while its flag incorporates Christian, Jewish and Islamic symbols, Melchizedek intentionally  possesses no established church although its citizens and monotheistic adherents are both called "Melchizedekians". 
Implied by Melchizedek Bible's Introduction and Glossary.KAJ 15:56, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monothesistic Religion 

message: I have now documented and reported the sockpuppets used by user:Johnski: user:SamuelSpade, user:KAL user:207.47.122.10.
 
Accordingly, I will report violations of the 3RR rule if he continues to use them in an attempt to revert this page as well as others. Davidpdx 10:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How have you documented this? Can I document that Davidpdx is a sockpuppet of Gene_Poole simply by making such a claim?KAJ 11:54, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How about IP addresses and the fact I'm in South Korea? I have students that use logic better then you do and they speak English as a second language. What a complete idiot you are! Davidpdx 12:18, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I may not be as smart as your students in South Korea, but I'm not a complete idiot.  What does being in South Korea have to do with this, and what do you learn from the IP addresses? Reveal the facts here, so others can see it too. I know there is no truth to what you claim regarding me. Do your students also post articles on Wikipedia? KAJ 12:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

text: please publish the results so it can be verified that I am neither Johnski nor am I SamuelSpade. Thank you. KAJ 13:43, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What a strange coincidence! Four new editors appear on Wikipedia at the same time (Johnski, SamuelSpade, KAJ and Wiki-Facts), and do nothing else but promote an identical agenda across an identical series of articles (, ,   and ), all of which just happen to be connected to the fantasy "Dominion of Melchizedek". Truly this is evidence of the power of the almighty! The almighty con, that is. --Centauri 22:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't speak for Johnski or SamuelSpade, but my interests started with Jewish Science and Christian Science on Wikipedia, which brought me to Melchizedek and related interests.  I started editing before making my handle, KAJ 17:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're going to attempt a bald-faced lie, you should at least try to make an effort at being convincing. Oh, and it's also a good idea to ensure that there isn't evidence to the contrary readily at hand, as that does tend to show you up somewhat. --Centauri 23:26, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr.Centauri:  Thank you for giving me a chance to show you what my first contributions where before I made my handle.  It gave me the idea to proudly display it on my User page. Please notice that there has been no double voting between my user name and the IP address  I used. On Jewish Science, the article I started, I didn't even vote. But I noticed that Davidpdx was the only vote to delete, probably because he noticed that an IP address that supported the version of DOM he didn't support, started it. I'm sure you will find this somehow to be further evidence for your argument.  Nevertheless, I hope that we can learn to be more polite to one another in the future better using Wikiquette. Are you also willing to reveal your IP address to show your good faith? KAJ 23:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppets of Johnski 

message: Mr. Harrison: took a day off to think (and further study the subject), and agree with you to take a point at a time, the first being the opening line:
"The Dominion of Melchizedek is a micronation known for being directly linked to large scale banking fraud in many parts of the world."
There are four problems with this line. The first is that I've used every source available to me including Nexis Lexis to find a legitimate source for this statement, and can only find the opposite, being that no direct link can be found.  It seems more likely that the Wikipedian author of that statement wants it to be true, not that it is true, or published in any reputable source.
Looking through the history of the Talk page, someone there asked for evidence of this "fact" and there was no reply.
The only fact that I can find is that Melchizedek is known for the frauds that have been linked to the banks it has licensed.  An example of the difference would be that of the banks that Saipan licensed.  Saipan banks, including Merchant Bank, the one that the Pedlies were involved in, had allegations of fraud brought against them.  However, if the publicity that those banks gained from those allegations, affected Saipan, it wouldn't make Saipan known for being directly linked to those frauds, unless the government of Saipan was running the fraudulent banks in question.  In the case of Melchizedek banks, the government of Melchizedek, including its founders have never be arrested or charged with any frauds having to do with any of the banks they licenced.  Even in the civil case of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission against a lawyer in New York, neither Melchizedek nor any of its officals were sued in that case.  In other cases, the U.S. S.E.C. has sued micronations and thier founders, such as "Prince Lazarus" of "New Utopia".
Second, Melchizedek, according to reliable sources, including the Washington Post has been diplomatically recognized by a world government, yet the opening line in the micronation article states that micronations have not been recognized by any world governments.  Because of this conflict it seems that either the micronation article needs to be changed to indicate one exception, or change the Melchizedek opening line to "entity".  There should be no objection to this because a micronation can also be an entity.  Melchizedek has been recognized as "an ecclesiastical sovereignty" which would be the best definition because it is a published fact according to reputable news media.  As a middle ground, saying that Melchizedek is an entity aspiring to ecclesiastical statehood, seems reasonable. 
Third, Melchizedek claims to be "an ecclesiastical government" and "an ecclesiastical sovereignty", therefore it is at least aspiring to be such, if not already there.
Fourth, the opening line gives any reader the caveat emptor, due to the word "fraud" appearing there highlighted.  So the argument that giving a factual, fair and balanced account about Melchizedek will give credibility to it, doesn't hold up, especially since the center of the article quotes someone as saying that the entire Dominion of Melchizedek is a fraud. 
This is my recommended text for the first line: 
"The Dominion of Melchizedek is an entity aspiring to ecclesiastical statehood, and is known for the licensing of banks that fraudulently operated in many parts of the world."
Please feel free to find a middle ground or completely new opening line. KAJ 19:08, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How about this: The Dominion of Melchizedek is a micronation ostensibly aspiring to ecclesiastical statehood. It is known for having licensed banks that fraudulently  operated in many parts of the world. One of its founders (specify who, with link) was involved in the attempted secession of the  Fijian island of Rotuma. Tom harrison 23:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks better. I believe the founder that was involved in the attempted secession of Rotuma is Ben David Pedley but he apparently changed hs name to, "Tzemach Ben David Netzer Korem" but can't find an article about him.    Should I start one? KAJ 23:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: David Even Pedley is being considered for deletion, though I think it ought to be kept. It might be better to not start another article until the status of that one is resolved. Any relevent biographical information here could go here, if supported by consensus. Tom harrison 00:27, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an agreement among many editors that DOM stuff should stay on one page. That is why three pages (not just one) that Johnski, (aka KAJ, aka Samuelspade), has created are have a rfd to delete them. He is simply using an end around to push DOM on other articles because he knows he does not have consensus on this one. I will continue to rfd new articles he creates and if I don't, I guarentee other editors will. Davidpdx 01:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just the facts 

message: Hello Gene,
Hello Wikifacts,
While you both wish to improve the article, you should consider the 3RR. Cordially,Johnski 06:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As Wiki-facts seems to have violated 3RR, I've left a warning on his talk page, and reverted to the pre-3RR version. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 08:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the reverting continues with sock puppets. Do the regular editors on the page want it protected? SlimVirgin (talk) 10:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: SV that's not a bad idea. Maybe until things calm down. The problem is that he vandalizes other pages as well. I reported Wiki-Facts for a 3RR violation already but nothing has been done about it yet. I'm also working on the sock puppet issue as well. When I hear something I'll let you know. Davidpdx 11:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've protected it. If we block one of them for 3RR, he may just return with other accounts, so it might make more sense to find out which ones are sockpuppets, and block them indefinitely. We can do that on a reasonable suspicion, rather than needing technical evidence, so long as it really is a reasonable suspicion. With dynamic IP addresses, protection is often the only way, or range blocks if it gets very bad, but I don't think this has reached that stage. Let me know in the meantime when you'd like it unlocked, and if I'm not around, you can ask on WP:PP. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 12:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's very reasonable to suspect that there are not this many people in the world interested in Dominion of Melchizedek, so I think it's pretty reasonable to assume they are sockpuppets. Jdavidb talk • contribs 14:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the SlimVirgin was correct in protecting it after the rapid fire fight between Gene Poole and Wikifacts broke out.  However, we do still need to reach consensus on the bias issue. Please see my last above to David re context and irony. Sincerely,Johnski 16:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ...or to put it more accurately, after I started adding details and references concerning one of the many major frauds Melchizedek has been used as a front to promote, and Johnski decided to go on a vandalism spree by using one of his sockpuppets, Wiki-Facts, to selectively remove the bits that didn't conform with his pro-Melchizedek agenda. --Gene_poole 23:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians, I noticed that you expressed interest in helping with this article. The Slim Virgin protected the DOM article after a round of rapid fire fighting between Gene Poole and Wiki-facts broke out. In the past all I've tried to do is take from credible sources using parts that have some consensus and balancing some areas with the other side of the story. I gave up on that, and just started posting POV check at the top of Gene's article. That POV check is even considered vandalism by some that claim I have sock-puppets. As you can see it isn't easy to get consensus on this article. I'll give you an example of something that needs balancing as I see it. An employee of the US OCC has been quoted as saying that DOM is a fraud, whereas the offical web site of the US OCC only refers to DOM as an "unrecognized soverignty" that licensed a bank that may be operating without permission in the USA, so I and another wikiuser, KAJ, tried to get consensus (even boldly editing) to add this fact, as a "however" following the employee's quoted statement. Am I way off base here?
Here is the proposed text:
According to John Shockey, former special assistant, U.S. Comptroller of the Currency, in an address to the 4th International Financial Fraud Convention in London, 27 May 1999: "The Dominion of Melchizedek is a fraud, a major fraud, and not a legitimate sovereign entity. Persons associated with the Dominion of Melchizedek have been indicted and convicted of a variety of crimes." 
However, the only official website of the U.S. Comptroller of the Currency refers to Melchizedek as a "non-recognized sovereignty" that "licensed" Caribbean Bank of Commerce. 
The last sentence in the above paragraph is the only addition to the current paragraph proposed. Can anyone give a valid reason why it wouldn't be best to quote from the US OCC's official website to give balance to the article? Sincerely, Johnski 08:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  US OCC balancing act 

message: Mr. Davidpdx: Please fix the second archieved page as it is only a duplication of the first.KAJ 03:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed the link to the 2nd archive. The page itself was fine, it was the link on the main page that was in fact messed up. I copy/pasted it and didn't change the number. I also added the heading for this topic to seperate it from the other discussions. Davidpdx 04:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk Page Archive 2 

message: Now that this article is cleaned up and looking a lot better, I think it's time to reopen the idea of a rfc in terms of merging David Even Pedley into this article. My thought is that despite anyone's opinion about DOM, it would enhance the article and also get rid of an unneeded second article. 
Before I go through with the rfc, I'd like to open the floor for comments or concerns about this idea. Davidpdx 07:17, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My outsider's perspective is not to merge him into the article. We don't merge George Washington into United States or Bill Gates into Microsoft  or even John Harvard (whose role is admittedly a little different from those other two) into Harvard University.   -EDM 17:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the a lot of what is in David Even Pedley belongs here, but the rest should probably stay in a separate article. Apart from Melchizedek, Pedley has minor notability as a convicted felon.--Centauri 21:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I say we merge the lot into this article. The guy has no significance outside Melchizedek, and his early criminal activities merely set the stage for his later concoction of this shell "country" designed primarily to fleece the unwary or stupid. --Gene_poole 10:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging David Evan Pedley 

message: This is another fair warning about reverting without consensus. The article may have been changed a bit in the past few days (which I had nothing to do with), but that doesn't mean your changes have consensus. I again warn you, if you start a revert war, I will go forward with filing an arbitration claim. You can groan and moan all you want about whether or not the article if "fair and balanced" in your opinion, but it does not change the fact you are reverting without consensus. Davidpdx 05:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry Davidpdx, since I am making actual edits and you are reverting without edits, it is you that is reverting not I, and you have no more consensus for your version than I have for mine. I also answered your questions in two other sections above. Sincerely, Johnski 06:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverts without consensus 

message: Since it's obvious that editors taken to arbitration refuse to stop reverting this article, then the next step is an injunction. This only adds fuel to the fire in terms of your behavior. Davidpdx 04:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for an injunction

message: :(I'm pasting this into the talk page of all the micronation category articles.)
I've just started a template for the micronation infobox, based on the Sealand box. I've also written usage guidelines on it's talk page. I'd like to please invite any interested people to go over its talk page to discuss the template itself, along with my guidelines. As a demo of the template, please see Lovely (micronation), which I just edited to use the template. --Billpg 23:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Infobox Micronation]]