Talk:Hercule (Dragon Ball)/Archive 2

message: NOTE: Some votes were added after the debate ended. This http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hercule_%28Dragon_Ball%29&diff=88492412&oldid=88452786 shows the votes as the debate was closed
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hercule_%28Dragon_Ball%29&diff=89981815&oldid=89972296 - VelocityEX added his after closing
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hercule_%28Dragon_Ball%29&diff=88099309&oldid=88064001 - The "John Pannozi" vote was from an anonymous IP address
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Huw+Moore - Huw Moore, who also cast a support vote, has less than 50 edits as of November 25, 2006 - He edited infrequently since February 26, 2006
* I added the four notes WhisperToMe 04:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was no consensus for any proposed move.  It's always a bummer when such a long argument fails to reach consensus, but it does happen.  There is clear opposition to every move that has been proposed, so the page will remain where it is now. —Mets501 (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support - (see Discussion below) -- DesireCampbell 02:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to take this time to point out that even though Wikipedia guidelines do state that an article should be the most common term for English speakers, it is also a Wikipedia guideline to disregard any guidelines in the event that they may force the article to worsen. After all, these are guidelines not regulations. -- DesireCampbell 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Firstly, the character's name is Mr. Satan. There can be no debate about this. He was never written to be Joe, or Super Larry, or even Hercule. This character is referred to as "Mr. Satan", he lives in "Satan City" (it's even spelled out in English ), his daughter is named Videl (an anagram of "Devil"). His name is quite clearly "Mr. Satan", there is no debate about the character's name.
Now, the problem arises as to what the article should be called. Should it be Mr. Satan, or some  other name. Why would it ever be any other name? Well, if he was never called "Mr. Satan" in any  English translation of the meta-series, then there would be some cause to use a more widely known name, but that's not the case. "Mr. Satan" is used in the official US uncut dub. Even if that were not so, if Mr. Satan was only ever referred to as "Hercule" or "Master Handsome" or "Mister Savage" using one of those names instead of his actual name would go against the standard procedure of other Dragon Ball characters on Wikipedia. Most characters are listed as, and referred to, their actual names, even when such names are not the "most common" English translation. 
-- DesireCampbell 02:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The policy on Wikipedia (which means several Dragon Ball related articles will have to be fixed) is to go by the most common/official English name. He has gone by both Hercule and Mr. Satan in official English sources (and sometime by both. For example, he was called Hercule and Mr. Satan in Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn). Either his full name is "Hercule Satan" (which is reasonable) or his name is Hercule and "Mr. Satan" just his stage name. Also, this discussion shouldn't have started since there is already a move request going on. TJ Spyke 03:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Djinn Boo wouldn't be a bad choice, because it is "official", but it fails the Google test. Similarly, Mr. Satan fails the Google test even though it is also "official". (And you can't claim that it is more official than Djinn Boo since that is a reasonable romazation of the original Japanese, just not what we're used to.) By that logic, Hercule is still the right choice. JRP 04:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Hercule is not incorrect. That has been used in offical sources (including the uncut TV episodes and movies, I just watched one of the uncut movied where they called him both Hercule and Mr. Satan). TJ Spyke 05:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: TJ Spyke and WhisperToMe I'm sure mean well, but changing the article from "Mr. Satan" to "Hercule" is against the general consensus, differs from standard practices with other articles, and is just plain wrong.
Firstly, the character's name is Mr. Satan. There can be no debate about this. He was never written to be Joe, or Super Larry, or even Hercule. This character is referred to as "Mr. Satan", he lives in "Satan City" (it's even spelled out in English ), his daughter is named Videl (an anagram of "Devil"). His name is quite clearly "Mr. Satan", there is no debate about the character's name.
Now, the problem arises as to what the article should be called. Should it be Mr. Satan, or some  other name. Why would it ever be any other name? Well, if he was never called "Mr. Satan" in any  English translation of the meta-series, then there would be some cause to use a more widely known name, but that's not the case. "Mr. Satan" is used in the official US uncut dub. Even if that were not so, if Mr. Satan was only ever referred to as "Hercule" or "Master Handsome" or "Mister Savage" using one of those names instead of his actual name would go against the standard procedure of other Dragon Ball characters on Wikipedia. Most characters are listed as, and referred to, their actual names, even when such names are not the "most common" English translation .
Furthermore, a consensus was reached (see the first survey below) to move the article from Hercule (Dragon Ball) to Mr. Satan.
I'm switching the article back to saying "Mr. Satan", not "Hercule". And I'm leaving the article at Hercule (Dragon Ball) only because I am extremely patient. I can see no reason why the idea that this article should remain at Hercule (Dragon Ball) should even be considered. 
 -- DesireCampbell 13:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Okay, this is getting ridiculous

message: I've archived the old discussion because it was WAY too cluttered. Instead of trying to make sense of the chaos, I decided to Be Bold. Please use the "+" button at the top to add a topic, instead of "Edit this page". Instead of editing the page itself, click "Edit" on the right hand side of the topic, and add the comment to the end. Thanks in advance. Teh Shingen 21:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archived Talk 

message: :Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support per nom and WP:NAME. Use redirects for multiple valid names, not bundling. --Dhartung | Talk 07:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Hercule (Dragon Ball) → Hercule (Mr. Satan) — There's no consensus on where the article should be placed for either location, so this is a compromise using the less common name as a disambiguator. Will (message ♪) 20:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Add  * Support  or  * Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
*Slight Support- I guess it's a fair compramise.--SUIT42 20:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You really should remain civil, DesireCampbell.--SUIT42 21:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: :Add  * Support  or  * Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
*Slight Support- I guess it's a fair compramise.--SUIT42 20:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You really should remain civil, DesireCampbell.--SUIT42 21:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: *"(cur) (last)  04:19, 12 November 2006 TJ Spyke (Talk | contribs | block) (I have watched the uncut version, he is sometimes referred to as Hercule there as well.)" - That explains VIZ' "wrestler name" idea for Mr. Satan! WhisperToMe 06:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding as to if Movie 11 happens before or after the Babidi Saga. Movie 11 premiered on July 9, 1994  - which would put it between episodes 232 and 233  (which aired the 7th and the 13th respectively). The Babidi saga is episodes 230 to 231, so while the movies don't really "take place" at any point during the series, the movie was definitely set between episodes 232 and 233. -- DesireCampbell 00:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movie 11 timeframe 

message: :"Also in the Kamen Rider Stronger series, the name Satan implies evil as well as in most anime series, with "Mr. Satan" as the only exception.  Another notable thing is that the name Dabura means Diablo or Devil as well. "
Dabura is an Engrish version of "Dabra", as in "Abraca-". The character's name pun fits in with Bibidi's, Babidi's, and Boo's. I'm not sure where "Dabura means devil" came from. -- DesireCampbell 12:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Line about Dabura