Talk:Hugues de Payens

message: Hughes de Payens was pupil of Schlomo ben Yitzchak. A link between Knights Templar, Gnosticism, Kabbalah and Baphomet... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 01:08, September 17, 2005 (talk • contribs) 84.61.10.86
According to a second version, Hughes de Payens was born in the city of Forenza in Basilicata, (ancient Lucania), Italy and bore his father's surname, "Paganos",or "Pagan" who was a norman ruler and his wife Emma.
That changes perspective of the whole genesis of the "Pauperes Commilitiones Christi Templique Salomonici", or Knights Templar Order, and moves it to middle ages Italy, to a region that was enriched by different cultural influences up to that period,(Pagan,Greek,Lungobardian and Normanic cultures)...
After founding the order, they joined the Crusades lead by French royalty, and departed to the Holy Land.
December 11th, 2008, Roxane Larocca.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.4.55.32 (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: I reverted an edit to the page that tried to change the name from "Hugues" to "Hughes".  This is an occasional misspelling.  The correct name is either the French spelling, "Hugues de Payens", or the English version, "Hugh of Payens".  The "Hughes" spelling is just a confused version of the two.  Currently the article title is at Hugues de Payens because I feel that's the most commonly-seen version of the name, but if anyone really wants to move the page to Hugh of Payens, we can definitely talk about it. --Elonka 16:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: Added "In Popular Culture" section to insert the claim that Hugues de Payen married Catherine St Clair, since this is really only part of the recent romantic histories of Rosslyn Chapel. The historical record states that his wife was really Elizabeth de Chappes, and this is what is found on the French Wikipedia version of the article:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugues_de_Payns
Wfgh66 (talk) 00:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wife of Hugues de Payen 

message: Hello,
I would like to know why are you desagree, for a external links~ about Hugues de Payns Museum.
When I go in the external links about museum (in the article), the links give "bad" informations (open/close of museum....).
In the description, when can see in the notes, the book of M. Thierry Leroy,and the origine of existence of museum is T. Leroy and friends of him.
the "webmestre" of external links I purpose, is T. Leroy
Sorry, but you can see, I'm not english....that's why my english isn't good....
Thanks.
Cordially  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.192.144.210 (talk) 13:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  external links 

message: Someone can add this book : Hugues de Payns, la naissance des Templier, de PF Thierry Leroy, ThebookEdition, March 2011,
Thanks  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.34.111.166 (talk) 08:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

message: If I've understood correctly, this is the same fellow as Hugues de Payens: the dispute is over his place of birth. It appears the Italian wiki briefly had both articles but has merged them under the French name, :it:Hugues de Payns. There is much discussion on the Italian talk page, which I admit I haven't yet read.
The Catalan wiki describes him as (of course) Catalan. See :ca:Hug de Pinós. That's not much help, except to suggest that no one has the faintest idea where he came from. Andrew Dalby 13:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, there is one after all. The chronicler Simon de St. Bertin (don't look for him on Wikipedia, Marco made him a redirect to Ugo de' Pagani!) really does seem to say the order was founded just after the First Crusade. He doesn't name Hugues/Ugo, but his work is not fiction and I can add it to the article. Andrew Dalby 13:57, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposed 

message: Dear friends, I read your thesis... I am Italian, but I swear this does not influence my research. The data about the Italian origin of Ugo de' Pagani are many, but I have not had time to translate all my research, you can find it in Italian on Ugo de' Pagani.
In Italy the topic Ugo de' Pagani has become a taboo, because despite historians and heraldists of every age and nationality have always supported his Italian origin, from 1800 on, some novelists have begun to support his French origin.
Thanks.
- Major Marco Antonio Sorrentino
:I can't think of any English or French historians who have ever said he was Italian. "Novelists" have nothing to do with it, because we wouldn't use novelists as a source on Wikipedia. The evidence for his French origin is a bit circumstantial - the other original Templars were French, the original patrons of the Templars were French, the count of Champagne especially - presumably he supported the order because Hugh de Payens was also from Champagne - but also Bernard of Clairvaux, Fulk of Anjou, etc. I will read your research when I have a moment, but let's not pretend there is any nationalist bias here. It just makes more historical sense if Hugh was from Champagne. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, Marco, now that I've read your Italian article, I still don't see why you think he was Italian. In fact this "controversy" seems to exist only in your article and nowhere else. I do not see any modern secondary sources that say he was Italian (or at least, no academic ones that would be acceptable for Wikipedia). Is this your own original research? If so, I would suggest publishing it in an outside source. Otherwise it is not suitable for Wikipedia. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

text: A bunch of blogs and Facebook pages are not suitable sources. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In any case, this isn't relevant to the merge question. He is one man, therefore he should have one Wikipedia biography. If there are eventually some reliable sources saying that he was born in Italy (or in Catalonia), this issue of his place of birth should form part of his one biography page. I mention this here, Marco, because you haven't yet commented on the merge proposal. Andrew Dalby 09:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Marco Antonio Sorrentino|Marco Antonio Sorrentino]]