Talk:Banyumasan dialect

message: Regardless of personal opinion most authoritative sources class Banyumasan as a dialect. It is totally inappropriate for wikipedia not to mention this fact. Conrad Leviston 23:40, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banyumasan as a dialect 

message: Dear 202.155.21.194 (and also Conrad Leviston), thank you for your reaction. I would also apologise myself for my English as I am not a native speaker of English.
===Dialect===
From linguistic point of view one of the main factors to call some speech a dialect instead of language is mutual intelligibility with other variants of the same language. Well speakers of both Banyumasan speech and standard Javanese language can mutually understand each other. So it doesn't have to be politically charged. For example, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are mutually intelligible, so they are dialects of each other from linguistic point of view.
All descendants of the Old Javanese language are called modern Javanese. So they can be regarded as 'children' of the Old Javanese language. The so called modern Javanese is not only the speech of Surakarta and Yogyakarta, but of all variants of Javanese from Banten to Banyuwangi and beyond.
To complicate the situation, the Old Javanese language was far from homogenous. There are several variants or dialects. The language of the Old Javanese Kakawin Ramayana, which came from Central Java from the 9th century AD/CE for example, is different from more or less contemporary inscriptions from Eastern Java. Yet they are all called Old Javanese.
===Archaism===
Furthermore, back to Banyumasan speech again, for it is true that the Banyumasan speech retains some Kawi or Sanskrit words that are not found in spoken variant of the standard Javanese language, it is only part of the story. Other variants of the Javanese language retain other words, so in the end they are all equally archaic or modern. What can be said is however that some dialects are indeed more archaic than other ones. But this only applies in certain fields. In certain fields or domains, the Banyumasan speech is more archaic, but in some other fields again, not.
===Phonology===
The same can be also be said of the phonology. It is not true that an /a/ is always pronounced as an [ɔ] by speakers of standard Javanese. Only in open positions they are to be pronounced as such. In close positions, they are still to be pronounced as [a]. For example /lara/ is to be pronounced as [lɔrɔ]. But  /larané/ is to be pronounced as [larané]. Then I think some variants of the Banyumasan speech do not retain the so called retroflex phonemes, but I am not sure. These are merged with the dental phonemes into alveolair ones. Furthermore there are other sound shifts as well. For example, Old Javanese ingwang has become inyong. So the /ŋ/ has become /ɲ/ while /wa/ has become /o/.
===Number of speakers===
I suspect you have also included speakers of others Western Javanese dialects as well.
===Sources===
Still one of the most reliable source for the languages of Java is:
*E.M. Uhlenbeck, 1964, A Critical Survey of Studies on the Languages of Java and Madura, The Hague: Martinus Nijhoff.
*
Uhlenbeck doesn't consider the Banyumasan speech as a separate language. It is a member of the Western Javanese group of the Javanese language together with the speech of Banten, Cirebon and Tegal. 
Well I think I have said enough for now. Feel free to comment on my commentary :-) Meursault2004 00:46, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some reaction 

message: Still one of the most reliable source for the languages of Java is:
*E.M. Uhlenbeck, 1964, A Critical Survey of Studies on the Languages of Java and Madura, The Hague: Martinus Nijhoff.
*
Uhlenbeck doesn't consider the Banyumasan speech as a separate language. It is a member of the Western Javanese group of the Javanese language together with the speech of Banten, Cirebon and Tegal. 
Well I think I have said enough for now. Feel free to comment on my commentary :-) Meursault2004 00:46, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Dear Slamet Serayu, the Banyumasan language is not the same as the Western Javanese language. It is rather part of this language group. Yes other western Javanese languages such as Banten Javanese and Indramayu/Cirebon Javanese are related to Banyumasan language, but they have different histories. Furthermore it is not a variant of Old Javanese. It is a variant of Modern Javanese. I bet modern Banyumasan speakers can't read and comprehend the 9th century Kakawin Ramayana for example. Meursault2004 08:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Banyumasan language is not the same as Western Javanese

message: Hi everyone.  I'm doing some edits for clarity and english grammar (I'm a native english speaker), but I don't know much of anything about linguistics or the languages of that region, so please review my work for accuracy.  Thanks.   Bubamara 17:17, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well most linguists consider the Banyumas dialect as a Javanese dialect and not as a sister language of Javanese. This is also my main objection of this article. Furthermore the Western Javanese language group is not the same as Banyumasan language. North Banten is a region in Banten province where Javanese is spoken. The variety of Javanese spoken there, Banten-Javanese is not a variety of Banyumasan language, albeit it is related. Meursault2004 07:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preserving accuracy with my edits 

message: A table highlighting the differences between 'Standard'-Javanese and Banyumasan language is provided. Besides the fact that some Banyumasan words also occur in Standard Javanese as synonyms, I am afraid this table doesn't say anything. Have you ever heard of Swadesh list? Although a bit controversial in some circles, this so called Swadesh list can provide relevant information about relationships between languages. Meursault2004 20:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Reply/reaction is posted in your personal page User:Slamet Serayu. Meursault2004 08:30, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Swadesh list

message: This article has a lot of general information about Javanese that should be merged into that article (if not there already).  Here we should just cover distinctive features of Banyumas dialect. -- Danny Yee 04:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  too much general material about Javanese 

message: Should this be moved to Banyumasan (Javanese dialect)? It is classified a dialect and in Indonesian is even called Bahasa Jawa Banyumasan (Banyumasan Javanese). Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:45, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Move