Wikipedia talk:Community portal/Archive 4

message: Any suggestions for how the community portal should be redesigned? - Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 04:02, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the time from your post, someone has complied with the second of your wishes. Don't credit me though, I'm just reporting it. HereToHelp 12:21, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

message: There's two "Requested articles" sections. One with the "Open Tasks" section and one with the "Counteracting Systematic Bias" section. Do we need both? or is this unnecessary clutter? Or am I being naive? The page is too "code" based for me to edit it anything. --Dangherous 18:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that having the Systematic bias template on the page shows too much favoritism towards them. If they have a template here why can't everyone? So I'll remove it and put a simple link on the list of teams to join. I'd also like to remove the other templates (maintenance task etc.) but haven't thought of what to replace them with yet (I do think they need mention here somewhere).- Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 20:04, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Get rid of one of the "Requested articles" bits 

message: While I'm suggesting...I reckon the Colaboration of the Week section can be cropped. Maybe chop the "At the time of the European discovery of the islands of the Caribbean three major Amerindian indigenous peoples lived on the islands: the Taino in the Greater Antilles and The Bahamas, the Island Caribs and Galibi in the Lesser Antilles and the Ciboney in western Cuba. Trinidad was inhabited by both Carib speaking and Arawak-speaking groups" little summary bit. --Dangherous 18:48, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See below comment - Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 22:40, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: COTW

message: I think that all the collaborations should all be grouped together in their own section entitled "Collaborations".
This would include Collaboration of the Week, Maintenance collaboration, Other collaborations (perhaps renamed to 
something like "Project collaborations"), Article Improvement Drive and Spanish Translation of the Week. Is the Wikimedia collaboration still active? CheekyMonkey 20:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the templates in collaboration of the week, renamed the section to just collaborations, and inserted a couple of general staments about collaborating, with links to the "Top level" pages.- Trevor MacInnis(Talk | Contribs) 22:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I suppose now that support for the COTW is dwindling, the improvement drive article can be quoted. Phoenix2 01:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

text: There either are too many COTWs to attain critical mass on each single article, or there is not a good standard for announcing/qualifying COTW. If there are at least two editors who deliver on their promise to work on a COTW, then we can enjoy the wiki collaborative action. As it stands, we are getting single editor efforts on too many of the articles, or we need to stretch out the time for a collaboration. Ancheta Wis 21:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

text: If I ever get the time I will do it, but I thought I should mention that the COTWs on this page(and the real Community Portal) aren't up to date with Template:COTWs. Several more are out there, like Leftism and Mexican. Falphin 18:14, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Collaborations

message: There is a need of some visual focus after the lead para. Some graphics, etc. Now it's weird and empty. The maintenance collaboration looked good at that position. There should be something else there. Not logged in user:Renata3 21:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: top

message: This design seems to assume that everybody has their background color for project pages set to white. I go for the traditional everything-except-articles-is-yellow style, and the white table on pale yellow simply looks bad. Zocky 02:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So what do you suggest? I hate to tell you, but most people do use white....you might consider doing the same. HereToHelp 12:23, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background colors 

message: I'm not sure that the proposed structure (newby stuff on top, useful stuff on bottom) is a good thing. There should be some quick links on the top for newbies, but the page should assume that the typical visitor is familiar with wikipedia and wants links to useful pages and things to do. Zocky 02:06, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the rearranged structure, but that would be because I am more interested in the stuff that's been moved to the top. I think the quick links box at the top (to the boxes below), effectively a Table Of Contents for the page, is a great improvement - except that the names don't match up with the titles of the boxes: click 'Using Wikipedia' and you get taken to the 'About Wikipedia' and 'Writing/Reference resources' bit; it is not clear which box you have been sent to, though I presume from the name of the link that 'Using Wikipedia' corresponds to 'Writing/Reference resources'. Ditto for 'Finding areas needing work' which links to 'Open tasks'. It is confusing to have the names change like this. 194.200.237.219 12:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a very good point. I didn't discover the links for about a week, but now I use the part that is on the top in the old design. What if all the expert stuff was on the left, newcomer links on the right? Or at least something to say, "hey new people, there's links here you should check out", even if it's a link to lower in th page. HereToHelp 12:26, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questioning the structure 

message: The 'About Wikipedia' and 'Writing/Reference resources' sections are overlapping. Some of what I'd expect to find in one of them, is in the other one. And some stuff makes no sense in either, particularly the "Projects" and "Related communities" bits in the 'Writing/Reference resources' section. The Projects" and "Related communities" bits look more like they should be under 'Collaborations' or have their own 'Projects' and 'Communities' sections.
In general, I'd group what is on this page under several broad headings: "About Wikipedia" (both a guide to _why_ wikipedia exists and _what_ areas exist in Wikipedia), "How to use Wikipedia", "Things to do in Wikipedia", and (something not really covered here) "Navigating around Wikipedia" (including mentions of the associated wikiprojects and communities outside Wikipedia proper).
194.200.237.219 12:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Wikipedia and Resources sections overlapping 

message: Many experienced editors want the page to have the "tasks you can do" links on top where they can see them, but newer editors won't seethe links for a long time if they are under the tasks. So which way do we go? Perhaps there could be a link to, say, Wikipedia: helpful links with all the stuff with link after link. that way, in my opion, both parties are happy. We just have to emphasiz the link to the links. HereToHelp 23:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I definitely think the "todo" items should go first.  There are literally thousands of problems that need attention, and I think this should get the most exposure possible.  Which makes it a Good Thing if people have to scroll past them on their way to help pages.  I've arranged the portal along these lines, and put big, fat "Help" link up at the top.  Improvements welcome/needed. -- Beland 06:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Informational Links vs. Tasks 

message: So picture of the day comes on at weekends onto the main page, right? So I reckon that on weekeds there should be no pic of the day in this community portal. --Dangherous 14:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why the POTD should be here at all.  It doesn't need any improvement, since it's already featured.  I don't see why it shouldn't be on the main page 24/7. -- Beland 06:01, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Because we'd run out of POTDs. But by all means, get it out of the community portal. HereToHelp 12:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  picture of the day 

message: Things are slightly out of balance right now.
* The "Projects" and "About Wikipedia" sections need to end at about the same place.  We can either add projects, remove "About" links, or my preferred solution would actually be to move the "Related communities" section to the very bottom of the page.
* The "Help" and "Writing/Reference resources" need to be about the same length.  These sections are very closely related.  Would it be a good idea to get rid of the second title and make the whole thing one color with a single title?  In any case, the subsections can just be juggled around to make the layout work better.
The infromational links on the Community Portal have not been freshened recently, at least not in any particularly systematic way.  The merger of Wikipedia:Topical index into :Category:Wikipedia is supposed to spin off new links for this page.  It would not be a bad if folks looked at these two schemes to see if there's anything worth promoting here, so that we can stabilize layout here.  And of course, there are bound to be stale links which are no longer needed on the portal, which should likewise be removed.  -- Beland 06:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Layout and refreshing links 

message: "October 2-8 is a special maintenance collaboration, brought to you by Perl and the color red". I don't get it! Sure, Sesame Street, but huh? Too obscure of a connection methinks. --Dangherous 13:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The list of RED links was produced by a PERL script.  Quirky, and obscure, I do admit.  But hopefully attention-getting?  As if John Walsh isn't the star of that little box.  8)  -- Beland 01:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It get's your attention, granted, but doesn't make you want to edit it. Make it simple--like google. That's why it's such a success. HereToHelp 12:30, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huh? 

message: I just changed the header a bit. It's now tidier and more compact, and features slightly more content.
Suggestions welcome.
Constructive critisism will require a bus pass, passport and driving license - no, just kidders. I like critisism. It's good.
-Davidpk212
: Don't put "Why help" section and cram maintainence collaboration into a tiny corner. Renata3 04:46, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe. I like the idea of Wikipedia: why contribute? HereToHelp 12:32, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Header changes 

message: What sort of goals are we working toward here? I propose that if any one has any specific goals that they be listed here or elsewhere maybe in the article itself for now. I don't have any cause I don't see what was wrong with the portal to begin with. Yes it looks busy and somewhat confusing but at the same time thats what makes it exciting. Imagine looking at it with the point of view of a new wikipedian. Maybe that should be one design goal. To design it so that a new editor feels excitement!  Jaberwocky6669 21:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. To make it look nuetral, I guess. Any heavy colors look lopsided and go against NPOV standards. HereToHelp 12:34, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you are color blind or merely have a bad monitor or troubled vision, black text on dark colors is considerably harder to read.  I really don't see how color is POV, though. -- Beland 06:06, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Goals

message: I think the goals for this redesign are:
1. Group this page as a whole in a more logical and visually appealing manner.
The page seems backwards to me. Collaborations and tasks are  at the top of the page while sections explaining what tasks and collaborations are and how people should edit within them are further along. I think this page needs to be arranged such that it could function as a "Main Page", where new and old users alike can come to explore and learn about Wikipedia. Having the "action items" on top limits this pages usage to experienced users who already know where to find what they're looking for. Some people argue that the collaborations/tasks are to important to put below and more people will get involved if they see them first. I'd argue that you can't force people to get involved. They have to feel comfortable with the concept of Wikipedia first, and pushing them to get deeply involved and "fix things now!", before they get a handle on the basics, will only alienate them furthur. Therefore...
2. Reverse the boxes so the intro comes before the content.
3. Related to the previous item, links need only be referenced once in the page. Currently, collaborations have their own section and are mentioned in "Hihglights" below. Same for maintenance, cleanup taskforce etc. Eliminate doubles/triples.
4. Peoples favorite subjects are being given too much focus. Certain collaborations have their own templates inserted in (seemingly) random parts of the page. And the templates color scheme clashes with the desire to make a portal user comfortable (see item 1). Eliminate all templates/clashing text styles, etc.
5. There is some confusion as to what should be where in the About, Help, and Resources sections. These sections need be be aranged in a hierarchy that will lead a reader from the first link to the last, teaching them in steps, without having to skip around the page.
That's it for now, maybe more can be added here later. For now I'd suggest everyone take a look at a new project, Wikipedia:Usability and apply it here. - Trevor MacInnis (Talk | Contribs) 22:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  First of all I'd like to thank Trevor for starting this redesign, it is much-needed and already looks considerably better than the current incarnation. I made a couple of changes just now, hopefully along these lines in terms of organizing the sections; I removed the long intro as I feel that would be better found at WP:WELCOME or some similar page. I haven't gone through a double-checked placement of links in the sections yet, but I did notice that WP:AID and Wikipedia:Maintenance collaboration of the week (which I moved down with the rest of the collaborations) currently lack current-project templates except in banner form; I left requests on their talk pages that they be created, so they can be updated automatically. — Your server has been MC MasterChef :: Leave a tip — 09:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "the templates color scheme clashes with the desire to make a portal user comfortable". I think that it should match the Main Page as far as those pastel backgrounds go. Give it rhyme and reason. Also: Perhaps consider using two pages for these two conflicting tasks. HereToHelp 12:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goals for this page 

message: Clicking on "Merge" in Open Tasks leads to Wikipedia:Duplicate_articles. I think it should link to the Category: Articles to be merged page. Massysett 19:38, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Duplicate articles need to be merged, but the latter page goes into more detail on pressing merges and how to do it. HereToHelp 12:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: My idea: For each of the different open tasks (Requests, NPOV, backlog, etc.) give two links: One is what the topic is, like NPOV, and what open taks there are for it (the "more" link), like Category:NPOV disputes(it won't let me link). Pro: gets stuff off this page, making room for other things to be close to the top. Con: moves everything to the bloated category pages, and doesn't give people a sample of what there is. But it would look like
NPOV:Fix articles with problems of nuetrality. (Fix articles will link to the NPOV category page.)
So how do you like it? HereToHelp 12:56, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of people use Template:Opentask on their user pages.  If we were to make such a drastic change, I think we'd need to create a new template to put on the Community Portal.  There is perhaps some benefit to giving people 200 articles to choose from, instead of 5 - they're more likely to see something of interest.  But having samples right there on the Community Portal seems to promote casual involvement by people just passing through here.  Adding clicks between people and articles would probably reduce that kind of serendipity and visibility.  Given that we have tens of thousands of articles in need of remedial work and a backlog of 1-2 years, I'd hate to do anything which would reduce the rate at which things get fixed by people just happening to notice them.  And the Community Portal is one of the best "advertising" pages there is, considering how distributed the project is.  I think Opentasks should really be the first block of links, like it is now.  I disagree that it makes sense to "steer" people toward informational pages first.  I don't think you get people participating in the project by saying "Here, you probably shouldn't start contributing until you read at least the first 6,000 words of instructions."  "Wikipedia is boring, I'm going back to working on my navel-gazing blog." I think wikitext is intuitive enough, and people can start with small enough edits, that we can just present them with articles they might be interested in.  "Hey look at me, I just fixed a spelling mistake in this important article!  Editing Wikipedia is fun and easy!" Only later when the "Now how the heck do I...?" and "Is it generally OK to...?" questions start popping up, does the other function of the page become important.  I fully expect people to actively look for help or information when they need it.  If they aren't looking for it, why bother them with it? -- Beland 06:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Open tasks space saving idea! / Overall page order

message: Hey, nice job! I have two comments:
* I don't think the maintenance collaboration template should be displayed above the main COTW project - it should probably be merged in with the rest of the collaborations.
* The Spanish translation of the week should also be in line with the other collaborations, rather than at the top section.
Cheers, Talrias (t | e | c) 12:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The first one you could debate either way. It's a colaboration, yes, but a special, high priority one. I'm neutral. But the other suggestion I agree with entirely. English is the primary language of Wikipeda, don't advertise a secondary one over any other. On the other hand, i something similar was done for "Translations to English" on another language, then I don't object because English is the main language--let's face it, it is. But kill the Spanish thing, by all means. HereToHelp 22:33, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the Maintance collaboration is really a critical function yet. Its one of the newer collabs and needs more time for now it should just be put with the others.(I'm not saying they havnen't done good work I just don't think its stabe enough for a prominent position). The Spanish translations is one of the oldest collabs but I agree its best with the others. Falphin 18:16, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two comments re: collaboration section 

message: Would it be possible to switch the placement of the "Collaboration" box and the "About Wikipedia" box? And the Help links might also be better nearer the top. My opinion. --Lord Voldemort (Dark Mark) 16:18, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Box switch 

message: On the whole, I've noticed that just about everyone agrees on just about everything. So I say let's go into redesigning this page and move out of brainstorming. On he other hand (there's always another hand), we could continue to think this over more and perhaps make a better product with more time. Which do you like, people? HereToHelp 22:43, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brainstorming vs. Active Redsign 

message: I think this is a great idea.  In particular, the little table of contents at the top is great, IMHO.  
My only concern is that some parts of the page (in particular, the Projecs box) don't work very well when viewed at 800x600, which is still used by about a third of internet users.  Is there a way to work around that?  For instance, perhaps the template could be placed below the intro paragraph instead of floating to its right? -- Avocado 22:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monitor resolution issue 

message: I've given a page a tweak or two, and only now found this discussion. Splitting the page. Interesting, I'll agree there are quite a few useless links and notes on the page as it stands, and the introduction is aimed a newbies as well.
Which specific sections would we like to be moved or duplicated to the 'advanced' page?
#Help
#To do
#About Wikipedia
#Active collaborations
#Ongoing projects
#Resources
On the other hand, we could just use this page as it is right now, and consider breaking in up later. The existing page isn't broken up either. Is there anyone who would miss an important section? Anyone aching to edit this design before implementation?
-- Ec5618 16:24, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breaking / Using 

message: I've started a thread on implementing the further changes proposed here on Wikipedia talk:Community Portal.  There's no longer a link from the portal to this page, so any futher comments here will probably not get noticed much. -- Beland 23:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving discussion back