Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive 1

message: Post replies to the main talk page, copying the section you are
replying to if necessary.  (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)
This archive covers settled issues occuring April 19, 2005.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive08. Thank you. Bratschetalk random 03:16, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Note: This is for settled issues dealing with the Pope Benedict XVI article. Any new questions/comments/corrections should be directed to the article talk page. Thank you. Zscout370 20:28, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

message: * Can someone who knows how to - get the Date and Place of Death out of the info box? Arcturus 20:18, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info Boxes 

message: I'm trying to restore it (once I find the last version), but I'm leaving a note since the WIki's so slow right now & it might take more time than I have. - SoM 18:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why was the Early Life section removed? 

message: This page's content was duped in this edit.  Could someone fix this.  I would have done it myself but it seems to be protected.  AlistairMcMillan 17:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article content dup 

message: I've looked at several biographies and can't seem to tell?
:I think he was a plain diocesan priest. He did not belong to any religious order. --Gerald Farinas 17:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What order is Cardinal Ratzinger from?

message: I notice that the only external link here is "Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club website." Some of Carnial Ratzinger's position statements in his own words might be more revealing than this careful pap. --Wetman 07:04, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External link

message: We should add something in here about him leading the papal funeral, it currently makes no reference to this.
:Yes it does, in the first paragraph: He presided over the funeral of John Paul II and will also preside over the Conclave in 2005. - and please start new sections at the bottom of the page, it's easier to find them. -- Arwel 16:12, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Leading the Popes funeral

message: We say "he was none-the-less forced to join the Hitler Youth when it became complulsory in 1941." Two questions: Since when was it voluntary to join the HJ before 1941? What actually happened in 1941 was that Ratzinger turned 14, the age at which it was compulsory to join. And in what sense was he "forced" to join? Do we just mean that he had no choice, or that some form of compulsion was applied to him specifically? Adam 08:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of Cardinal Ratzingers strongest supporters include Rome's Camillo Ruini, head of the Italian Bishops' Conference, Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Angelo Scola of Venice and Sydney Archbishop George Pell, who all believe that fighting Western secularism is the most vital challenge.
As an Australian I can vouch for the fact that Pell, for one, has said nothing in public about his preferences. Adam 08:33, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Some questions

message: Is there really an age limit of 80 on popes?  I thought that only applied to cardinals. -- Walt Pohl 17:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Age limit? 

message: When you unprotect the article, I have the first picture of him as pope:
*I would also include the official photo of His Holiness that the Vatican will take of him in the next few days, but move this to the article about his selection in the conclave. Zscout370 17:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for motivating me, I wrote the article in H. wiki. :) BTW can someone make the photo be in the beginning of this article? I hate messing with templates. Alensha 18:40, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ooh, it's already there. Cool. This article changes faster than I can read. :) Alensha 18:42, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First picture 

message: "Dear brothers and sisters, after the great Pope John Paul II, the cardinals have elected me, a simple, humble worker in the vineyard of the Lord.  The fact that the Lord can work and act even with insufficient means consoles me, and above all I entrust myself to your prayers.  In the joy of the risen Lord, trusting in his permanent help, we go forward. The Lord will help us and Mary his very holy mother stands by us."  Benedict XVI --Gerald Farinas 18:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First words 

message: This article should include the type of policy direction the Catholic church can expect from this pope.  Something along the lines of the following paragraph from this cnn article:  "In the Vatican, he has been the driving force behind crackdowns on liberation theology, religious pluralism, challenges to traditional moral teachings on issues such as homosexuality, and dissent on such issues as women's ordination."  Monkeyman 18:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As an encyclopedia, I don't think we should speculate about what we could expect from him.  We can highlight his past positions, yes.  But we should tread lightly as we ponder what Benedict XVI could do.  We don't prophesize at Wikipedia.  We record facts of events that have happened, not what will happen.  --Gerald Farinas 18:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policy Direction 

message: See Prophecy of the Popes.  Someone's pulling our chain.  I never heard GO as a motto or name for Ratzinger before this. -- User:Sk4p
I removed it.  Whoever posted it was obviously trying to make him fulfull the Prophesies of St. Malachy.  If you want to go that route, a more likely interpretation would associate the name "Benedictine" with "Olivetans."  --User:mamageek
I removed that reference.  Whoever put it there was obviously just trying to make him fit the Prophecies of St. Malachy.  He wasn't commonly called that at all.  A closer fit, if you want to go that route, is that Benedictines are called Olivetans.
:"Gloria Oliviae" is not a prophecy for the actual motto of the new pope. It was just a catch phrase that was suppose to prophesize a future pope. The phrase was known long before Ratzinger was elected. There are pages out there concerning the prophecy that hasn't been updated for a few years showing the phrase Gloria Oliviae as the catch phrase for this current pope, and that JPII was the current and living pope. The beauty of the prophesy, if one choose to believe, is that it was known to fit an individual in several ways through word play and actual description. --Kvasir 18:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gloria Olivae? 

message: Question, is there a way we can include this in the article? This is his name in Latin (though not the official one). This was mentioned on the Vatican website. Thanks. Zscout370 18:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BENEDICTVM XVI 

message: Using an Infobox which already contains space for "place of death" and "died" seems tasteless to me --Deprifry 18:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info Box 

message: He doesn't speak 10 languages. As far as I know, he speaks German, Italian and French fluently and English and Spanish. 85.124.40.7 18:52, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel a change is needed, feel free to make it yourself!  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone (yourself included) can edit any article by following the  link. You don't even need to log in, although there are several reasons why you might want to.  Wikipedia convention is to be bold and not be afraid of making mistakes.  If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at How to edit a page, or try out the Sandbox to test your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. — mark ✎ 18:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: thank you for the hint. 85.124.40.7 20:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: language skills

message: Both have been used in the article - can we settle on one? -- 8^D BD2412gab 19:59, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
:"Josef" is the correct spelling.
::Both, Josef and Joseph (both are pronounced the same way) are correct (although the latter is regarded to be "oldfashioned"). The current pope used Joseph. 85.124.40.7 20:19, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Josef or Joseph? 

message: The Vatican has announced his solemn inauguration (Mass of Papal Installation) will be 10 AM Rome time on April 24,can someone who edits protected pages add that?--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 20:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Will be Installed April 24

message: Concerning the Nazi era, an anonymous contributor changed the text:
:In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He went into basic training for the Wehrmacht infantry in November of 1944. In 1945 he was interned in a POW camp as a German soldier. 
in 
:son of a policeman who was staunchly anti-Nazi, he was none-the-less forced to join the Hitler Youth when it became complulsory in 1941. In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He went into basic training for the Wehrmacht infantry in November of 1944. In 1945 he was interned in a POW camp as a German soldier. 
on 17 Apr 2005 (04:05 hours). This was done when Ratzinger after named as a candidate Pope (check for example the history of this Wikipedia article). 
* Can this new information be verified? 
* Especially, can it be controlled or proved that his father was "staunchly" anti-Nazi? And what does this say about the opinion of the young Ratzinger?
* The new text presents Ratzinger as someone who was put in the Wehrmacht, not as a human being who made a choice. Is this neutral enough? Or is an ethical (and highly disputable) choice made for the "ein Befehl ist ein Befehl" (an order is an order) rethoric??Doorwerth
I tried to create more neutral language about Ratzinger's Hitler Youth membership and army service.  Not sure how the duplication mess will sort out relative to my changes.  I'm still concerned about the description of his father as "anti-Nazi."  Do we have any evidence about that? It is more-or-less pro-forma to describe everyone in Germany around 1935-40 as anti-Nazi as a sort of blanket apology, especially for those you want to present in positive light (whether or not that light is fair). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is more neutral but the current version is inconsistent: It is quoted that he was not attending any meetings while -in the next line- it is stated that he assistend the anti-aircraft corps. Doorwerth 21:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazi era 

message: The arms depicted indicate a cardinal, not a pope - hence the red velvet hat and the number of tassels.  Until new arms are issued, shouldn't the CAPTION say that these are "Ratzinger's arms" as currently borne, instead of calling them his "papal arms"?  These arms belong to the man, not to the office.
Cf. the tiara over JP II's arms.
*As for the first issue, we are going to use the arms provided by the Vatican until a new one is created. The second issue, we have to create a new template for this page in order for your suggestion to work. Zscout370 20:21, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes these aren't his papal arms but his cardinal arms. The new ones aren't designed yet. FearÉIREANN 20:25, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Papal arms 

message: My personal opinions aside, I don't think a picture of the Emperor from the Star Wars films is an appropriate portrait of the new pope.
*Agreed, now that picture is on IfD. Zscout370 18:17, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: The whole page is currently duplicated threefold, and has been so for a while. Edits have probably been made to all duplicates,. This was the last version before duplication: , Alarm 19:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplication 

message: which idiot is messing up the page and massively duplicating sections?
*No idea, but I am hoping this mess will be fixed soon. Right now, I am trying to reorganize this talk page and arhciving a lot of stuff. Zscout370 20:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  idiot messing up the page 

message: 1. The photo of Adolf Hitler is misleading.  Yes Mr. Ratzinger was a former Hitler Youth, but the text states this was a requirement by law and not a choice of the young man.  So the Hitler photo is unnecesary.
2.Benedict was considered to be Pope John Paul II's "right hand man" and also one of his closest friends, and during the Pope's final illness, he carried out many of the Pope's functions as leader of the Catholic Church, such as molesting young boys and degrating women.  This sort of speaks for itself.
3. He is the eighth German pope. The last German pope, Adrian VI, was elected in 1522 and died in 1523. He is also the oldest cardinal to become pope since Clement XII, who like Ratzinger was elected at age 78. The reasoning behind picking such a old pope, is simple. They have not yet made up their mind and hope to soon find him dead so they can pick the guy they really want.  Totally inappropriate editorializing in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article.  
Maybe we should protect this site so that once the news isn't as fresh, there'd be less vandalism. Ramsquire 21:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unfortunate Vandalism 

message: from the current state of the article: 
Ratzinger was not an enthusiastic member but during the same period, 4 milion other German teenagers did not joint the it.
Sorry, but this is wrong english! Wikipedia being an Encyclopedia, such opinions are uncalled for! a link to Hitler Jugend is enough for anyone interested in knowing what happend. Neither that a Historian wrote that Ratzinger was enthusiastic or not, nor the fact that 4 million teenager did not join is relevant for this page.
Please keep the facts, remove the opinions --ManagementBoy 20:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong and/or missleading statements 

message: (I'd have posted in the previous Image section, but as that has been duplicated several times I didn't want to get in the way of cleaning up).
I don't think a Reuters image counts as fair use, though it's been tagged that way. Hopefully the current image can be replaced as quickly as possible with an actual fair use image, such as any official photograph the Vatican releases. — Asbestos | Talk 21:25, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Copyright 

message: FYI:
"Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum;
habemus Papam:
Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum,
Dominum Josephum
Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinalem Ratzinger
qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI" 
That is something we can put at a later date on the article. Zscout370 21:31, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vatican Announcement 

message: We seem to have an edit war over the 'germaness' of Adrian, and stupid vandalism of the 'Poop Benedict' variety going on. Going to be a long night... Djbrianuk 21:32, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war and vandalism 

message: The current article contains a bias in favour of the individual. Eg. quote from supporter, quote from self, POV attempt to suggest what the catholic church believes in 'universally' (this is certainly disagreed with by many self-proclaimed catholics.) No details on past criticisms and his attacks on priests he declared heretical.--Fangz 21:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV