Talk:Jumping the broom

message: from www.phases.org.uk:
"The besom, or broomstick wedding is now usually associated with gypsies, but at one time it seems to have been known in Wales amongst people who were not gypsies. A birch-broom was set aslant across the open door, either that of the bride's home or that of the cottage in which the couple were to live. The young man leapt over it into the house, and the girl then did the same. Care had to be taken not to touch the doorpost or the broom, or to move the latter accidentally, otherwise the ceremony was void. It had to be performed in the presence of witnesses, and one person, chosen for his standing and importance in the community, acted as officiant. Such a marriage was considered quite valid, however strongly the clergy might condemn it. It could, however, be broken without difficulty if, during the first twelve months, the besom was replaced in the doorway, and the dissatisfied partner jumped backwards over it from the house into the open air. The same conditions applied here as at the wedding. There had to be witnesses, and the person jumping had to avoid touching the broom or doorpost as he or she leapt. If the rite was properly performed, both parties were considered free to marry again.
: They gypsy wedding was slightly different. A broom-branch was laid on the ground in the open, and the bride and groom jumped backwards and forwards over it, holding hands as they did so. A rush ring was then placed on the girl's finger, to be replaced later by a gold ring brought from the joint earnings of the couple. There was also another form in which an ordinary besom was held by the father of the bride, or of the groom, with its bushy end resting on the ground, and first the young man and then the girl leapt over it in turn."
It is generally associated in the UK with "common law" marriages
:I am avoiding editing the article until I can verify my suspicions with acceptable sources, but it is very tempting to speculate that a British "common law" marriage custom was introduced to West African slaves who had a similar symbolic association with brooms.  In this context it is also perhaps worth noting that Roma were for a time deported from Britain as indentured servants to the West Indies.  These disparate customs could have combined to shape the "slave wedding" custom that seems best remembered. I personally first learned of it as a European folk custom gleefully appropriated by neo-pagans.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.87.91 (talk) 14:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like speculation, if not  original research. Where are the reliable sources, or at least a link to the purported source above? RashersTierney (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the item above is unsigned and unsourced speculation from a couple of years ago.  But since then, in the article itself sources have been added documenting the 'jumping the broomstick' ritual as a form of common-law marriage widely-known in Britain by the late 18th century.  There are also a couple of references to articles in early 20th c. folklore journals (footnotes 9 and 10) tracing its origin in Britain back to Welsh Romani practice. So, I think the objection voiced below (see 'Major objections to the article')is that, as it stands the article is America-centric.  It presents 'jumping the broomstick' as a marriage ritual firstly, and mainly, practised among African Americans during slavery, and downplays its earlier existence among Welsh Romani. The objector has created a separate article, dealing solely with the Romani dimension. But other editors feel it's best to keep things together under one 'Jumping the broomstick' heading, hopefully giving full weight to both traditions.RLamb (talk) 22:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The debate does seem to be a bit disjointed. I've responded below at the section you refer to, and also at the new article, Talk:Jumping the broom (Romani people). RashersTierney (talk) 23:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  jumping the broomstick 

message: I understand your concern, but I fully believe that it is a phrase first and a custom second.  My reason being that more people in the African American community identify with the saying than the actual practice.  Yes it is/was definately a practice (in Africa and America).  But if we are going to speak of the subject in the present, then the former (phrase) should take prcedense.  Plus, more people are probably searching for this article to find out the root of the SAYING than the root of the practice since most already know it originates among Blacks (in the American form, anyway).  Still, I think I will add the custom/practice part to the first sentence as well just to be safe.  thanks for the feedback.  
--Scott Free 19:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phrase or Custom 

message: I'm not sure this is true.  I know Ashantis and they don't recognize this practice at all.  Unless you can provide a reference, I think that part should be taken out
===Ashanti Connection===
Read the book I cited below "Fall of the Asante Empire" and it explains it there. The article also explains that the practice isn't done much anymore by today's Akan populations and was mainly popular during the height of the Asante Confederacy.  By the way, do you have a reference (other than yourself) for the pre-christian jumping of the broom you recently added.  Just curious cuz if not that part might need to be deleted as well.  holla back.Scott Free 14:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ashanti Connection 

message: Read the book I cited below "Fall of the Asante Empire" and it explains it there. The article also explains that the practice isn't done much anymore by today's Akan populations and was mainly popular during the height of the Asante Confederacy.  By the way, do you have a reference (other than yourself) for the pre-christian jumping of the broom you recently added.  Just curious cuz if not that part might need to be deleted as well.  holla back.Scott Free 14:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ashanti Connection

message: hi everyone.  I wrote the article in its previous form using the scant resources I had.  I returned months later to see that the page has been copied ver batum by no less than like 4 websites.  Not only that, they've copied the article so much that someone used them as a source for the article I WROTE.  Pretty insulting, but that's the internet.  Anywayz, I went to my university and picked up some quality info on Jumping the Broom (relax ladies I'm still single, lol).  I put in the info I found by Dundes.  I think its crap and badly written, but its one of the only scholarly articles I could find on the subject and felt he deserved some sunlight. I'm glad to see that reputable publishers like McGraw Hill aren't towing his line and I was able to site good sources on the mainstream origin (african roots if not an african connection).  holla back here or on my talk page if u notice anything horribly wrong. And thank you for not jacking. CHEERS :)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4shizzal (talk • contribs) 13:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanx for Not Jacking 

message: From the very beginning, the article presents "jumping the broom" as an "African American topic," and presents it to the readers as a "slave wedding" ceremony originating in Africa. However, the article fails to provide any real proof that "jumping the broom" is exclusively African American, nor that it originates in Africa.
On the other hand, the article does provide evidence (from revered scholar Alan Dundes) that this custom actually originates among British Romani Gypsies (somewhat inaccurately refered to in this article as "Roma"). The article also admits that jumping the broom also was done by white people in "the south" of the US, and that it was practiced in Britain during the 1700s (see Dundes, Alan: "Jumping the Broom": On the Origin and Meaning of an African American Wedding Custom" page 327-328. The Journal of American Folklore, 1996).
I find it very inappropriate for a Wikipedia article, then, to present "jumping the broom" - through images and texts - as a primarily or even exclusively "African American" custom. Rather, I suggest, the article should acknowledge the historical reality (as proved by the academic work of Alan Dundes, quotes by Charles Dickens, etc.) that "jumping the broom" originates in Britain, most probably (according to the evidence hinted at and refered to in the article it self) among the Gypsies in Wales, but was later borrowed or forced upon black slaves in the US by white slave-owners, who had heard about the Gypsy custom in their native or ancestral Britain. 
Additionally, similar African customs (such as waving brooms over the heads of the groom and bride) should be presented as such: similar customs, perhaps entitled to their own articles. But claims with no reliable evidence, such as the custom of "jumping" the broom originating in Africa, should not be presented as facts - but as theories held by some, despite the lack of evidence. 
In the introduction of the article, "jumping the broom" should be presented as a custom which probably originates among Welsh Gypsies - although it later also was adopted by other groups. And the article should not only be linked to African American topics, but also to Welsh and English Romanies/Gypsies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale_(Welsh_Romanies)
I also find it unacceptably unprofessional (if not racist) to refer to Romani (Gypsy) customs as "obscure." //  — Preceding unsigned comment added by George Peterson (talk • contribs) 22:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the earliest documented references to the ceremony seem to indicate it had a non-African origin.  It may have begun among the Romani in Wales but seems quickly to have spread to other marginalized social groups in Britain, as evidence shows it was fairly widely-known there by the late 18th century.  Still, if historically in America it was primarily practised by Africans - not only because their own traditional ceremonies were suppressed, but because they were actively discouraged from the normal legally-binding form of marriage - doesn't that give it an important aspect the article must reflect? RLamb (talk) 01:32, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Although the custom spread to other groups in Britain, it was (and is) still associated with its Romani Gypsy origins. The African American aspects of the article matters, but not at the exclusion of other groups (i.e. Romanies/Gypsies), whose history and culture seem to be neglected here. --George Peterson (talk) 03:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying you are wrong, but where are the reliable sources for this speculation? Can we have some links please? From my limited access, Sullivan (1997) seems to imply that it was not introduced by 'Gypsies' RashersTierney (talk) 21:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Thanks for asking for reliable sources, since the lack of such is one of the major problems I have with the current Jumping the broom article. A scholarly and reliable source is already, in fact, referred to in the article (Dundes, Alan: "Jumping the Broom": On the Origin and Meaning of an African American Wedding Custom." The Journal of American Folklore, 1996). As to the response, provided by Sullivan (1997), both views may be presented in the article - but I don't see how an encylopedia article is supposed to "take sides" or draw one-sided conclusion in case of dispute between two scholars. Presenting both theories seems more accurate and less misleading to the reader. Still, my point stands: Even the Sullivan source agrees that the custom originated in Wales, not in the US or among African Americans. It is a problem that this article acts as if Jumping the broom is a primarily African American topic, when it was known and practiced as a tradition in Britain. The Sullivan (1997) article you provided, actually proves my point: Several scholars mentioned in his article, associated the custom with British Gypsies in one way or another, including Sullivan. The dispute is whether the custom first originated with them. His entire conclusion, by the way, is based upon a theory that Gypsies reached Wales in the 1700s, while in reality their documented history in Wales goes back to the 1500s: http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romany-welsh%20.htm    George Peterson (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is one of those occasions when access to JSTOR (and more) is sorely missed. I'll try to 'blag' it, just for a while, to see where this leads. RashersTierney (talk) 00:56, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major problems with the article 

message: Removed  without closing the discussion, as foreshadowed below. There is no possibility of consensus to move, but discussion is making progress towards an alternative solution and should continue. Andrewa (talk) 13:50, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge - I wonder if a merge might be a better solution? The two articles are basically describing the same practice, probably from the same origins, just in different places. Coupled with which, the Jumping the broom (Romani people) article has little detail at present. We would only need to maintain two articles if both were very long. Correct me if I've missed something here though.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Not sure if a merge would work well in this case - The current Jumping the broom article is entirely about the African American tradition, and would have to be completely changed in order to serve as a meaningful and accurate representation of the general practice of "jumping the broom," as it was practiced first among Romani Gypsies, and then later among other groups who adopted the practice (among others: African Americans). The article has some major problems, discussed above. To name a few: The article is entitled "jumping the broom," but rather than accurately presenting the general topic, it discussed the entire subject from an African American perspective, is categorized as an African American topic, and deals with the practice as a primarily African American phenomenon. While mentioning that the practice did originate among Romani Gypsies, it also refers to the Romani custom as "obscure" (a problematic term in a 21st century encyclopedia?), and the article pushed the people among whom the custom originated down into a sidenote in their own history: Under "other ethnic groups." Whats more, there are several inaccurate statements. Wiccans, for one, are listed as an ethnic group? Then there are the contradictions: "the practice was passed along, possibly by force, to slaves by their masters. This is given some weight by the fact that slave masters and their wives assisted in the ceremony at times. How or why an obscure Roma custom became so prevalent among African Americans is not explained." (Explenation is given, followed by a statement indicating that no such explenation had been given.) I am also a bit sceptical of the scholarly nature of some statements and references, such as the bold conclusion that "Jumping the broom therefore does owe part of its origin to slavery, but is also part of African culture that had survived in the United States like the Voodun religion of the Fon and Ewe ethnic groups or the ring-shout ceremony of the BaKongo and Mbundu ethnic groups" (with no reference provided at all!) It's odd that the article defines, from the beginning, the practice as a "slave" practice, while the only scholarly evidence provided in the article hints at British Romani (Gypsy) origins (btw: British Romanies do not self-identify as Roma). All in all, the article is about African Americans jumping the broom, the African American history and practice, origins etc. But other groups are not given equal space or time of day, even though one of those "other groups" were the ones among the custom originated. The article is fine, but I just suggest - for the sake of clarity - that it is appreciated for what it is: An article about jumping the broom in African American culture, and its background. Two articles would, in my opinion, work better in this case, and they could both appear as links on a general main page "jumping the broom."George Peterson (talk) 18:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Merge. Agree that merger is the way to go. Jumping the broom (Romani people) is a brand new article that appears to be a fork created by the proposer in response to the problems he mentions; it is mostly taken from this article, using only sources from this article, and about half of it is not even about Romani customs.  While this article does focus on the African-American aspects of ths custom, it is not true that it is solely about them.  If everything the proposer says about this article is valid, it is an argument for rewriting this article rather than changing its name. If they are not merged, however, as a long-standing article with thousands of readers per month, the worst thing would be to change this to a two-entry dab page, as it certainly qualifies as a primary topic. - Station1 (talk) 03:54, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Merge. I think the subject of the article is a single custom which (on the balance of evidence here) originated among Welsh Romani before the 18th century, spread to marginalized British groups, and eventually was adopted by African-Americans who may have taken it over partly because its central symbol of the broom already had a cultural resonance for them from African marriage ceremonies.  At least that's what the sources quoted here suggest happened. I don't think it's two entirely distinct subjects meriting two separate articles. RLamb (talk) 15:06, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Rewriting - A merge would only be responsible if the current article is completely changed. The article should accurately and truthfully reflect historical reality, as in RLamb's response above. Currently, the Jumping the broom article is making a bold and inaccurate statement, through images, texts and topics, that this is an exclusively or at least primarily African American (and United States) topic. All the scholarly sources used in the article, however, clearly show that the custom originated in Wales (not in the USA), and among Romani Gypsies there (not African Americans/slaves). In case of a merge, the complete Jumping the broom article should mention the origins and practice among Kale (Welsh Gypsies) and English Romanichal Gypsies already from the start, have a Romani image next to the African American one (such as a Romani flag), and place the article within the scope of Romani topic, perhaps also Britain, UK, England and Wales. The current use of terminology, image and topics, gives readers the inaccurate impression that they are reading about a primarily African American and/or USA topic. Whats more, the article contains several concluding statements that lack scholarly sources or no source at all (!), as I have showed in previous posts.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by George Peterson (talk • contribs) 19:56, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

text: I left a message on the African Diaspora page asking for contributions to the possible rewriting of the article along the lines suggested.  There may be other historical sources relating to the African American dimension of this custom which aren't given here, and which might clarify how it spread between ethnic groups. RLamb (talk) 00:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

text: A merger will only be possible, if the current Jumping the broom article is rewritten. Take a look at this discussion page. Obviously, the current article is extremely biased: It presents a custom from Wales as "African American," it portrays the practice as exclusively or primarily African American, it ignores the Welsh Romani/Gypsy history and practice of this custom, etc. The article is full of contradictions, bold statements and guesswork based upon unreliable (non-scholarly) sources or even no sources. This has been discussed above. The entire article should reflect the historical origins of this practice: It was never known in Africa (although waving the broom might have been?), scholars agree it originated in Wales, folklorist scholar Alan Dundes has done research which led him to conclude the custom originated among Welsh Gypsies/Romani people, and that the custom later was adopted by others, and imposed upon black slaves by white slave-owners. Scholar C.W. Sullivan III concluded that the custom originated among the settled people of Wales, but his conclusion was based upon the assumption that Gypsies arrived in Wales after 1700. The historical record, however, shows that Gypsies arrived in Wales in 1579. These topics have been handled, and written about previously, in this forum as well as in the Jumping the broom (Romani people) article. A merger would be good, but the current Jumping the broom article needs some major work. George Peterson (talk) 17:08, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that both articles need work. Perhaps a merge would be a good place to start? There seems to be a rough consensus above that it would be. Andrewa (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

text: This is definetely fine with me. George Peterson (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: As an uninvolved admin, I suggest we close this move request but do not close the discussion. There is no possibility of a decision to move this article as proposed IMO, however there is good progress towards another solution and discussion should continue.
So, if there are no objections, I propose to simply remove the  template, which will remove this discussion from the Wikipedia:Requested moves#Backlog, but not to close the discussion as would be normal in terms of Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closing the requested move. This will allow this discussion to continue unimpeded here. Andrewa (talk) 19:46, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Resolving the move request

message: See above discussions. Andrewa (talk) 20:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A merger will only be possible, if the current Jumping the broom article is rewritten. Take a look at this discussion page. Obviously, the current article is extremely biased: It presents a custom from Wales as "African American," it portrays the practice as exclusively or primarily African American, it ignores the Welsh Romani/Gypsy history and practice of this custom, etc. The article is full of contradictions, bold statements and guesswork based upon unreliable (non-scholarly) sources or even no sources. This has been discussed above. The entire article should reflect the historical origins of this practice: It was never known in Africa (although waving the broom might have been?), scholars agree it originated in Wales, folklorist scholar Alan Dundes has done research which led him to conclude the custom originated among Welsh Gypsies/Romani people, and that the custom later was adopted by others, and imposed upon black slaves by white slave-owners. Scholar C.W. Sullivan III concluded that the custom originated among the settled people of Wales, but his conclusion was based upon the assumption that Gypsies arrived in Wales after 1700. The historical record, however, shows that Gypsies arrived in Wales in 1579. These topics have been handled, and written about previously, in this forum as well as in the Jumping the broom (Romani people) article. A merger would be good, but the current Jumping the broom article needs some major work. George Peterson (talk) 17:08, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that both articles need work. Perhaps a merge would be a good place to start? There seems to be a rough consensus above that it would be. Andrewa (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

text: This is definetely fine with me. George Peterson (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger proposal

message: The article as it stands doesn't seem to give due weight to the challenge offered to the institution of slavery by any assertion of married status by slaves.  Slaves who entered independently into a marital commitment were surely challenging the right of their so-called owners to dispose of them as if they were not autonomous human beings  - they were disposing of themselves, to each other.  So if two people announced they were married, they were demonstrating a right of ownership over their own bodies which directly challenged their slave status.  Surely this is why marriage between slaves was not encouraged or even recognised in slave-owning states?  Wouldn't this make any marriage ceremony practised by slaves, including broomstick rituals, a subversive act?
RLamb (talk) 07:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Challenge to slave status

message: Re:  "African Americans have married the least of all of the predominant ethnic groups in the U.S. with a 29.9% marriage rate."  (WP marriage article) 
This difference should be put in historical perspective. 
The lower marriage rates of African Americans arises directly from a long series of laws targeting black marriage:  
1.  Enslaved blacks were denied legally-recognized marriage (hence ceremonies such as "jumping the broom.")  The denial of legally valid marriage served the convenience for slaveowners who might wish to sell one but not both of a couple.  All slave children were by definition "illegitimate" and could likewise be sold without concern for any legally enforceable rights to a parent-child relationship.  After the American Civil War, special statutes legitimated certain marriage-like relations between freed African-American couples, and their children were acknowledged to have rights to parental support, but no tradition of marriage had been allowed to develop over the generations.  
2.  After the Civil War, miscegenation statutes continued to void and punish attempted marriages of blacks to whites.  
3.  In the latter 20th Century, children of a couple could receive needed governmental assistance (e.g., W.I.C.) only if there were not, in their home, two parents required by law to support the children.  If unemployed, the children's father had reason not to live in the family home, or if he did, to avoid marriage to their mother.  Legal obligations to provide child support depended on marriage in most states) (in Texas and Ohio, until 1972 Supreme Court decisions).  A man without a job was thus worth more to the physical needs of his family if he were gone, rather than present in the home.  The persistent high rate of black unemployment, directly connected to separate and inferior schools under Jim Crow laws, exacerbated this problem.  As a result, a generation of black youth were raised in fatherless homes.  
As these laws were finally repealed or amended toward the end of the 20th Century, allowing the tradition of marriage to begin to recover among American blacks, the rate of marriage began to decline generally among all ethnic groups. This decline affected black as well as non-black marriage rates.  
Ocdnctx (talk) 16:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slavery and other historic background for current low marriage rates among blacks 

message: I just posted to the editor's talk page some suggestions in case they'd like to re-add about Nigeria the content that was recently added and reverted. The editor seems to be new. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nigeria and recent edits 

message: I have heard of the custom being used in pre-legalization same-sex marriage/commitment ceremonies in the United States.  At the time I assumed it was acknowledging similarity to a slave marriage in that it wasn't legally recognized.  However, although I can find it used as a metaphor in writing (e.g. Jumping the Broom: How "Married" are Married Gay Couples?, Jumping the Broom to Equality) now that I look, every example of actual use I can find in a brief search has at least one black spouse.  (e.g. Jumping the broom.  Same-sex wedding., Jumping the Broom: A Black persepctive on same-gender marriage, Hank Hamilton and his partner Larry Clement jump in the air as part of "jumping the broom," a traditional wedding custom, during their same-sex marriage ceremony at Unity in Chicago in Chicago, Illinois, June 1, 2014.   REUTERS/Jim Young, Mignon and Elaine jump the broom after a decade of commitment).  I also remember seeing it in Dykes to Watch Out For, when Clarice and Toni are married.  But again, Clarice is black.
Does anyone know if the custom was widespread among same-sex couples of other races? 23.83.37.241 (talk) 21:41, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in same-sex marriage?