Talk:Medes

message: The map that is used in the information panel on the top right looks really bad. Is there a way to create a territorial map that is commonly used on almost every country article? This is the one in question Leno405 (talk) 15:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Map of the Median Empire 

message: The date is unsourced and doesn't make sense. The infobox says 678 with either Deioces or Kashtariti as its first king. The article on Deioces gives his reign as 727-675  based on the Encyclopedia Iranica. This article has 700–647 BC. We have Kashtariti described as a chieftain but an inscription dated 678 calling him a king. Doug Weller talk 17:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: To User:Doug Weller The entire name of the article isn't consistent with the date. If the first date is the beginning of the Median kingdom when it began its expansion, then the title of the article should not be Median or Medes but Median kingdom (or empire). This article is written weirdly where it tries to talk about both the people (Medes) and the state. But those are two different things and so it leads to problems. For example this article doesn't talk much about the Medes after the conquest by Cyrus. This would be expected in an article about a Median kingdom but not when it comes to an article about the Medes. If this article is about the Median kingdom and its dynasty, than there is not really a solid date. Iranica mentions different possible dates as presented by various scholars. CaliphoShah (talk) 03:22, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of the start of the monarchy 

message: It is no doubt that the north Iraqi Kurds and Yazidis have links to the ancient Medians we can see that in blood and names as well as traditions. Mazdasnism was the first religion of the Medians, after the appear of Zoroaster and his suggested reforms he was exiled and fled to the Persians (Like the religious Yazidi man says "He was one of us but he separated"). After the Persians accepted his ideas it started to spread to Media by the support of Medians themselves until it was known as Zoroastrianism-Mazdasnism but most do not mention the Mazdasnism. Mazdasnism means: "Worshipper of the right God" from "Ahoramazdasni", "Maz" means "The right/powerful" and "dasni" means "Worshipper". After the Arabic islamic conquest they were not seen as God worshippers and they were called "Dasni" without God. The Dasnis were not acceptable about their name then it was reformed to "Ezidi" that also means "Worshipper of God" and were called "Yazidi" by the Arabs. It was until the reforms of Adi-Ibn-Musafir that added moder semitic believes to Yazidism. Today Yazidism contains elements of the ancient Mazdasni and the elements added by Zoroaster together under one God and they accept to be called Mazdasni as well. Sabyan (talk) 12:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Medians of today. 

message: Unfortunately, the English page dedicated to the Medians feels currently (January 16, 2020) rather dated. Since the 2000's a new consensus among specialists and scholars of Achaemenid history has started to emerge that the idea of a “Median period” in the Middle East is a purely Greek interpretation of world history not corroborated by evidence. The Persian Achaemenid Empire was the successor of the older Elamite kingdoms, not of a fictitious Median kingdom, on which see notably the paper of M. Liverani, “The Rise and Fall of Media”, in Continuity of Empire(?), Assyria, Media and Persia: pp. 1-12.
 For  details on the  current researches on the Achaemenids, one can consult the French wikipage on the Medians as a first point of orientation, or the French site Achemenet.
The following books can be recommended for further study:
 - the conference proceedings, Continuity of Empire(?), Assyria, Media and Persia (edited by Giovanni B. Lanfranchi, Michael Roaf and Robert Rollinger). Padova 2003.
 - Henkelman, W.F.M. 2006, The Other Gods Who Are. Studies in Elamite-Iranian Acculturation Based on the Persepolis Fortification Tablets, Leiden. 
 - the conference proceedings, Herodot und das Persische Weltreich / Herodotus and the Persian Empire (eds. Rollinger, Robert / Truschnegg, Brigitte / Bichler, Reinhold). Wiesbaden 2003. Published by Harrassowitz Verlag.
-----------  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB04:A87:6000:1000:B273:FC39:D814 (talk) 23:17, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dated 

message: Rename this article to Empire Median. NerdZizc (talk) 02:22, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename 

message: Hello Guys,
I wonder why you don't expose this proffessor's all views about Medes. In his very same book he also said that The majority of those who now speak Kurdish most likely were formerly speakers of Median dialects.” Gernot Windfuhr (1938- ). A retired professor from the University of Michigan, Iranian. Source: “Isoglosses: A Sketch on Persians and Parthians, Kurds and Medes”, Monumentum H.S. Nyberg II (Acta Iranica-5), Leiden: 457–471.
You better respect his whole views. Key Mîrza (talk) 12:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gernot Windfuhr 

message: Do you actually need this sentence that contrasts real life? Let me explain it.  
"Garnik Asatrian stated that ... In general, the relationship between Kurdish and Median is not closer than the affinities between the latter and other North Western dialects – Baluchi, Talishi, South Caspian, Zaza, Gurani, etc."
You guys already have sections/titles under "Zaza" and "Gurani" in Wikipedia. And mentioned that they are of Kurdish origin.  So, is it logical to separate Kurdish tribes from each other? Do it sense to list Kurdish tribes against Kurds? 
Plus, everybody knows that he is a political guy working for the benefit of Persians and Armenians. Key Mîrza (talk) 13:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any evidence to suggest that Asatrian's claims are politically motivated? — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  03:09, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garnik Asatrian 

message: Why was my information and resources deleted even though I shared resources? Resource sharing (talk) 12:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, . Which resources? It does not appear that you have edited the article under this username? Larry Hockett (Talk) 15:26, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  From linguistic forensic evidence, I guess they must be the edit-warring and aspersion-casting IP. –Austronesier (talk) 14:37, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  My resources were deleted  

message: I want to open this up for discussion. Are there any criticisms of my sources? Are there any negative aspects of my resources? I want to learn these.Because I have resources from Cambridge university and many professors. Resource sharing (talk) 17:06, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Which sources are you talking about? Are you talking about these edits? The suitability of sources is only one aspect of an edit; other relevant policies include WP:SYNTH and WP:WEIGHT. Also note that a link to an Amazon sales link is not appropriate. OhNoitsJamie Talk 19:22, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please back off judgmental comments. And do not make irrelevant comments, This discussion page is not a discussion page for you to say what you think about me. Please delete your comments. You should not comment right now, you should to comment after I share the source.. Also, this discussion page has been opened for those who are objective, I know how you think about it:  Resource sharing (talk) 17:36, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  I have many sources about Medes. 

message: Let's criticize some nonsense sentences. You moderators wrote, "Russian historian and linguist Vladimir Minorsky suggested that the Medes, who widely inhabited the land where currently the Kurds form a majority, might have been forefathers of the modern Kurds." One who looks this sentence will think that this is the only unique claim, there aren't any more claims. Don't take me wrong, Are you experts in history, or history professors?
And you didn't stop, you wrote more "This view was accepted by many Kurdish nationalists in the twentieth century." Are you aware of all the Kurdish children in Kurdistan, Iraq, each day singing their national anthem Ey Reqîb before they enter their schools? Just read its translation, if you aren't aware. As per your theory, each Kurd in Kurdistan, Iraq is a nationalist. Does that make a sense?
Okay then, let me put down some those Kurdish nationalists names that some of them are also genuine history professors:
1- “Postea vero Sarraceni amiserunt dominium Egipti et Medi, qui Cordins vulgariter dicembantur; regni Egipti dominium occupaverunt.”
“i.e. Afterwards Arabs lost the domination of Egypt and Medes who were called Kurds controlled Egypt.”
Armenian historian Hayton of Corycus (also Hethum, Het'um, and variants) (c. 1240 – c. 1310/1320). His book “La Flor des Estoires d’Orient” Chapter 52.
“The same historian seems to imply in several passages that Media was the proper home of the Kurds.” His collected work “Becueil des Hislorieas des Croisades, Documents Arméniens” vol. ii, pp. 225, 343–4. (ibid., pp. 127, 267).
2- "There is no doubt that the term Mar (Medians) refers to the Kurds" Russian Orientalist best known for his contributions to the study of Kurdish and Persian history, geography, literature, and culture, Vladimir Fedorovich Minorsky (1877–1966). His book “L’origine des Kurdes”, Travaux du XX-ene Congres des Orientalistes, Bruxelles 1938, pp. 143-52.)
3- “Kurds and Baloch/Baluch descend from Mede People.” Baloch/Baluch historian Salih, Akhund (1659 A.D.) His book “Kurd gāl nāmak” ( Koord-gal-namak ). He also names there the Medes tribe names and their connection in detail.
( کورد گال نامك ؛ تصنيف ، اخوند صالح )
4- ”Medes lived and expanded in the western part of Zagros mountain. This region is modern Kurdistan and Luristan.” Israel Smith Clare (1847-1924) His book “Ancient History”.
5- "The Medes were the ancestors of Xenophon's Carduchi and the modern Kurds.” Mack Chahin, A former lecturer on the Ancient History of the Near East at the University of Bristol. His book “Before The Greeks” Page: 109. The Butterworth Press, Cambridge.
6- “The empire of the Medes, one of the reputed ancestors of the Kurdish people, was the only great national state that may be said to have been established by the Kurds.” History professor, Wadie Elias Jwaideh (1916 - 2001). His book “The Kurdish National Movement: Its Origins and Development”. Page: XV. Syracuse University Press. First edition, 2006.
7- “Great mass of the Kurds are descended from the Medes though some are the successors of Mantieni, Kadusii, and Kassaei or Saqae.” Prussian historian and geographer, Konrad Mannert 1756-1834. 
8- “Kurds along with other Aryan immigrants were able to establish their own empire – the Median Empire –which rules vast areas of the Middle East Between 612 and 519 BC. Since then the Kurds and Kurdistan remained relatively independent ...” Associate Professor at the School of Information Science and Policy of the State University of New York at Albany. Lokman I. Meho. Source “Kurdish Culture and Society: An Annotated Bibliography” (Page: 11) Lokman I. Meho and Kelly L. Maglaughlin.
9- "Language like the language of the Medes, Kurdish is of the Iranian branch of the Indo-European family of languages..." William Lester Eagleton Jr. (1926 – 2011). The United States Foreign Service Officer and diplomat. His book “The Kurdish Republic of 1946.” Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1963.
10- The majority of those who now speak Kurdish most likely were formerly speakers of Median dialects.” Gernot Windfuhr (1938- ). A retired professor from the University of Michigan. Source: “Isoglosses: A Sketch on Persians and Parthians, Kurds and Medes”, Monumentum H.S. Nyberg II (Acta Iranica-5), Leiden: 457–471.
11- "The Kurds are physically perhaps the finest specimens of the human race in the Middle East, and they resemble Afghans in character and to some extent in physiognomy. They are the direct descendants of the Medes." Sir Arnold Talbot Wilson (1884–1940). British Deputy and acting Civil Commissioner in Baghdad from 1915-24. His book "Mesopotamia, 1917-1920: A Clash of Loyalties; a Personal and Historical Record" Page: 127.
12- "The true Medes (Mada) of the Assyrian inscription were the Kurdish tribes who lived eastward of Assyria and whose territory extended as far as the Caspian Sea. They were for the most part Indo-European in language and Aryan in descent, and lived like the Greeks, in small states, each of which obeyed a ‘city lord’ of its own.” Archibald Henry Sayce (1845 – 1933). British Assyriologist and linguist, who held a chair as Professor of Assyriology at the University of Oxford. Source: The Historians’ History Of The World. Chapter II. The Median or Scythian Empire. Page: 584. by Henry Smith Williams.
13- "Probably the wild Kurd or Lur of the present day more nearly corresponds in physique to the ancient Mede than do the softer inhabitants of the great plateau.” George Rawlinson (1812 – 1902). British scholar, historian, and Christian theologian. Source: "The Seven Great Monarchies" Chapter III. Character, Manners And Customs, Arts, Etc., Of The People. By George Rawlinson.
You didn't stop. You wrote also "Contemporary linguistic evidence has challenged the previously suggested view that the Kurds are descendants of the Medes.[66][67]" 
You didn't even explain it. You didn't give an example. Don't you need to put some more explanation? And, you put two reference links that both are Turkish origin and one of them even doesn't work. Are you aware that Turkish scholars in past claimed that Kurds were one of a Turkish tribe? They said the term "Kurd" cames from the word "Kart, Kurt" which a step sound comes out on the snow. It was published by governmental institutions in the 1960s. Do you know that Turks officially denying Kurdish history and ruin it? Here a reminder: ( https://www.milliyet.com.tr/yazarlar/can-dundar/kart-kurt-alt-ust-oldu-1083712 )
Your next sentence "Gernot Windfuhr, professor of Iranian Studies, identified the Kurdish languages as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum.[68]". Why you just made a selection of his work? You took some of his views and left some. Is it fair? Look above reference number ten.
I am sure you have a conscience and you will stick with truths. As much as you listen to "van Bruinessen" and "Garnik Asatrian" you will also listen to the above 13 Kurdish nationalists(!) too.
Key Mîrza (talk) 14:25, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: @Key Mirza: I'm an accredited Historian, and I can safely say that most of your sources here are very unreliable. A national anthem isn't a reliable source, and most of the other sources that you've posted are very old and outdated. Armanqur (talk) 22:57, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, I rather not take part in this. However, Key Mirza you might wanna read WP:RS, WP:FRINGE and WP:AGE MATTERS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:05, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

text: @Key Mirza: Like I said before, your sources are unreliable and won't be used. Anyways, as for your later comments about whom you discuss history with, I don't discuss history with bigots. Armanqur (talk) 19:51, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  ironic that someone who opened their user account 2 days ago and only made Vandal changes wherever the name "Kurd" appears is ironic  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Resource sharing (talk • contribs) 20:03, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text:  I changed what I thought was appropriate to change, which was only in three places. If you think that Key Mirza is correct and that his sources are all valid then please say so. Armanqur (talk) 20:10, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't worry I know you're a waste of time cause you're just making Vandal changes. So I won't waste time with you, don't worry, apparently your newly opened Wikipedia user will be closed by administrators for Vandalism. Resource sharing (talk) 20:15, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: @Key Mirza: I'd like to see what Resource sharing has to say about your sources?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Armanqur (talk • contribs) 20:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: @Key Mirza: Having Google links don't automatically make these sources reliable. You need academic and peer-reviewed scholarly sources; most of your sources are either outdated or have been disproven by modern scholars. The Mede/Kurd theory is nothing more than an old and disproven theory. Armanqur (talk) 23:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text:  "In the Median kingdom there are great mountains and few plains. There are two districts [in the kingdom]. The people living in one of them are called Saracens; while those in the other district are called Kurds. The Median kingdom possesses two very great cities, one named Soraket [Shiraz] and the other Aworemon [Kermanshah]. By law and faith they are Muhammedan and use the Arabic script." How does any of this make any sense? I don't think this could be considered as a reliable source; it would definite be considered as outdated, however. Armanqur (talk) 00:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

text: @Key Mirza: Something being old doesn't automatically mean that it's better or more reliable. Let me simply reference what's stated in the "Wikipedia:Reliable sources" page:
"With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing. However, newer secondary and tertiary sources may have done a better job of collecting more reports from primary sources and resolving conflicts, applying modern knowledge to correctly explain things that older sources could not have, or remaining free of bias that might affect sources written while any conflicts described were still active or strongly felt."
The benchmark is scholarly work that is academic and peer-reviewed. For instance, the national anthem of Iraqi Kurdistan isn't a reliable source for of academic evidence. Also, a book written a century ago by someone who wasn't a historian, anthropologist, or was in no way involved in academia wouldn't be considered as a reliable or peer-reviewed source for us to use. Armanqur (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

text: @Key Mirza: Most modern Professors on this subject deny the Mede/Kurd theory. Armanqur (talk) 00:43, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: @Key Mirza: Which professor are you referring to? Armanqur (talk) 00:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

text: @Key Mirza: Ya, those aren't reliable sources. If you don't believe me, go ahead and try to add them to the article. I can assure you that none of the moderators will accept these sources as reliable. Like I've said before, most modern academic sources claim that the Mede/Kurd theory is old, outdated and disproven. Armanqur (talk) 01:01, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

text: @Key Mirza: When did I ever state that I'v written papers on the Medes? Armanqur (talk) 01:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurds and Medes 

message: Hello, first of all there was an error, let me briefly state this error: This user has made quite the wrong edits before,  Although this user was warned many times by me and the maid and the admins, he acted many times in vandal behavior, I ask him to be blocked. Like this:,He was warned but changed it again: , , And this is another Vandal change:  Before this user made this change:   And the admins have deleted resources without realizing it and the resources added by the vandalizing user have been added. Except for one administrator, all administrators deleted previously added resource.  It is as if it is wrong to portray all the sources that say Medes are Kurdish as wrong and to put other sources first. Resource sharing (talk) 19:56, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Resource sharing|talk]]): How could I have been warned many times when I just created my account for the first time two days ago and received no messages about the issue that you're talking about? The passage I deleted was very poorly written and structured, and so it should have been removed. If you'd like to put it back then at least make sure its structure is parallel with all of the other writing on the page and subsection. Thank you. Armanqur (talk) 20:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: All the sources you gave before were written in Turkish, it seems that you are a Turk. all the changes you have made are pages with the word Kurdish. It seemed funny to me that you said that and defended yourself, none of the resources you gave before are valid. It's funny that you don't know any sources given before and put forward your own biased Turkish sources and defend yourself. There is a suprism for you !, There is a very nice site for you to do these things more easily: [www.tr.wikipedia.org] This place is for you. Resource sharing (talk) 20:11, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Suprism? No, I'm not Turkish, but my race and ethnicity shouldn't matter at all. Most of the sources that I posted earlier were academic and peer reviewed, and written in english; as for whether the writers themselves were all Turkish or not, I don't know and I don't care. By the way, I haven't seen you criticizze Key Mirza for his sources? I hope you're not bias or anything like that? Thank you Armanqur (talk) 20:16, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't worry, Vandal users don't stay long on Wikipedia. You talk too much. There is no problem with any change made by Key mîrza. Resource sharing (talk) 20:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  So you're fine with using a national anthem as academic evidence? Armanqur (talk) 20:33, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, the sources of the mirza are more logical than the biased and written by Turkish newspaper writers you shared. Sharing the authors who write that the Sumerians are Turkish as a source reveals your intention. reason for adding the national anthem is to indicate that the Medes are Kurdish, a view that has existed from the past.If you only worry about 1 of the 14 resources you have given, it shows your intention. Resources provided by Mirza will be added one by one, along with the book and page and ISBN numbers.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Resource sharing (talk • contribs) 20:38, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text:  Most of his sources are outdated and unreliable. You can try adding them if you want, but I'm sure that others will quickly see the flaws. Again, your racist comments aren't warranted; it doesn't matter what the race of the writer is. Armanqur (talk) 20:42, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ninety percent of the sources are completely correct and there are books and sources suitable for this. You are generating information from your own head, you are not qualified.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Resource sharing (talk • contribs) 20:46, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text:  I actually am pretty qualified, but you don't need be qualified to recognize that these sources are all outdated and unreliable, especially the national anthem. Most of them were written a century ago, or even over a century ago, and have since been disproven and discredited. Furthermore, none of you have posted any modern scholarly or peer-reviewed sources because they don't exist; they don't exist because no one believes in this old theory anymore other than Kurdish nationalists. Armanqur (talk) 20:55, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for making it very clear that you are Kurdophobic after this reply. Spending time for people like you is a waste of time.Israeli historian and Minorsky quite et al .. quite modern and accepted sources.You show that you have nothing to do with the subject. And you have made changes everywhere the word Kurd is used. Many of them have been undone. You're not important because you're committing the vandalism crime bye. Resource sharing (talk) 21:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text:  How am I a Kurdophobe when I'm for Kurdish independence? What I'm not for, however, is pseudo-history and the politicization of history. Again, most of those sources are outdated and have been disproven. Armanqur (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  None of the given sources have been refuted or out of date, just the thought in your mind. Looking at your Page history, I can see how Kurdophobic you are. Resource sharing (talk) 21:22, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text:  Actually, they're all out of date and have been refuted. Why else is it that you can't provide any modern academic sources on the matter? The only sources that perpetuate this old theory are old sources; this is a simple fact that you seem to have a difficult time accepting. Armanqur (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The source you shared is an article written in 2006, and it is very ironic that you say that the 14 sources given by Mirza are backward or invalid. Another ironic in trying to get to the top with just one work. Waide Jwaideh, a professor of history at the University of California, says in a 2009 study that Medes are the ancestors of the Kurds.Where is the disproved source? Where is the old source? Where is the irrelevant source? Resource sharing (talk) 21:41, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text:  Yes, I do think that way as do all others who only focus on academic and peer-reviewed sources. Like most others, I'm annoyed by historical revisionism, pseudo-history and the politicization of history. Good luck to you on getting any of these outdated, disproven and unreliable sources posted on the page, especially the national anthem. Armanqur (talk) 21:58, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are not "many" results or researches on the Wikipedia page of Medes as you think that Meds are not Kurds.Oh, but if you are talking about the writers who said "Sumerians are Turkish", I don't know that Resource sharing (talk) 22:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Maybe you're an admirer and supporter of the Kurdish intellectual Hamma Mirwaisi? Armanqur (talk) 22:21, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I will be watching your incredibly unreasonable changes you made about Kurds with curiosity. Resource sharing (talk) 22:27, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: @Dirokakurdi: It's not a surprise that you guys think that Hamma Mirwaisi is a reliable source. Seriously, good luck to all of you on perpetuating your pseudo-history. Armanqur (talk) 22:55, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: pseudo-history?   Resource sharing (talk) 22:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course not; I'm just pointing out the same thing that all other modern academic scholars have been pointing out: that the Kurd/Mede theory is pseudo-history and historical revisionism. Take care. Armanqur (talk) 23:15, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I never called myself such a thing, but you are most welcome. :) I hope you've finally learned the difference between academic, reliable sources and unreliable sources. If you still have trouble understanding it, let me know and I'll be more than happy to explain it to you again. Take care for now. Armanqur (talk) 23:47, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I thank you specially,For teaching me how to cover up by sharing fake, nonsense, irrelevant, disproved information. You taught me ridiculous irrelevant information from the ridiculous, irrelevant, disproved information you shared Resource sharing (talk) 23:52, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The subject of Hethum already existed. 

message: Currently, the introduction contains the following line:
However, a recent reassessment of contemporary sources from the Mede period has altered scholars' perceptions of the Median state. The state remains difficult to perceive in the documentation, which leaves many doubts about it, some specialists even suggesting that there never was a powerful Median kingdom.
Two issues:
1. Is the claim here that there was never a Median Kingdom to begin with or that there was a Median Kingdom but that it was not powerfull?
2. There is no source for this claim which was added on 14 September 2020. I suggest that unless we find a credible source for this claim we remove it from the article
I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this ~ Zirguezi 21:08, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I translated that paragraph from the French wiki on a whim, so I don't much care what happens to it in the long run, especially since I'm unfamiliar with the subject. However, I did skim through the page in question and came across some sources that might be of use in verifying that statement. Based on a translation of the statement that the citation's attached to, the claim seems to be that the Median kingdom was never powerful enough to be an empire. Anyway, I think I'll just leave these here for more capable hands to handle:
*P. Helm, « Herodotos' Medikos Logos and Median History », dans Iran 19, 1981, p. 85–90 puis
*H. Sancisi-Weerdenburg, « Was there ever a Median Empire? », dans A. Kurth et H. Sancisi-Weerdenburg (dir.), Achaemenid History III: Method and theory, Leyde, 1988, p. 197-212.
*B. Kienast, « The So-Called ‘Median Empire’ », dans Bulletin of the Canadian Society for Mesopotamian Studies 34, 1999, p. 59-67.
*Giovanni B. Lanfranchi, Michael Roaf et Robert Rollinger (dir.), Continuity of Empire (?) Assyria, Media, Persia, Padoue, S.a.r.g.o.n. Editrice e Libreria, 2003, p. 397-406.
Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 21:48, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim: "there never was a powerful Median kingdom." 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:03, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: I will leave this here, since it was reverted on the main page, the person who reverted ironically claim that my sources are not reliable or that I've misused original sources while the original sources DO state what I wrote I just copied the texts. I'll leave this here so that everyone can see how this page is being politically edited to suit the idea that "it was some Russian guy who in 1920s suggested that Kurds are descended from the Medes and it doesn't have any grounds,"..  
According to James R. Russell the identification of Kurds with the Medes is old,[64] and the only historical text under the title "Median language" is a Kurdish text.[65][66] More recently Mario Liverani incorporated the Kurdish Median legend about the fall of Assyria, which is first recorded by Al-Masudi in the 9th century, into Assyriology in order to further explain the downfall of the Assyrian empire.[67] [68] In Kar-Namag i Ardashir i Pabagan, a Middle Persian text written in the Sassanid period (226-651) which recounts Ardashir's conquests, in his war against the Kurds the names "Kurds" and "Medes" are used interchangeably and Ardashir's opponent is called the Median king of the Kurds.[69][70][71][72][73][74] According to Jean-Pierre Mahé, an authority on Armenian studies, historically "the name 'Mede' is the normal name for the Kurds among the Armenians",[75] likewise according to Avedis Krikor Sanjian, a professor of Armenian studies, in Armenian sources "the nation of the Medes" is one of the Armenian designations for the Kurds.[76] Robert H. Hewsen suggested that since the Armenians used the term "Mede" for the Kurds, "it seems likely that the Medes after their expansion into the region, merged with the natives to form the present-day Iranian speaking Kurds".[77]
Since the early 20th century several scholars have studied the linguistics relations between Kurds and Medes. Russian historian and linguist Vladimir Minorsky suggested that the Medes, who widely inhabited the land where currently the Kurds form a majority, might have been forefathers of the modern Kurds. He also states that the Medes who invaded the region in the eighth century BC, linguistically resembled the Kurds. Two decades later David Neil MacKenzie proposed a counter argument and said Kurdish was closer to Persian and questioned the "traditional" view holding that Kurdish, because of its differences from Persian, should be regarded as a Northwestern Iranian language.[78] However, MacKenzie suggested that the toponym Kurmanji language probably means "Median Kurdish". Martin van Bruinessen, a Dutch scholar, basing his argument on MacKenize's hypothesis, argues against the attempt to take the Medes as ancestors of the Kurds and states "Though some Kurdish intellectuals claim that their people are descended from the Medes, there is no evidence to permit such a connection across the considerable gap in time between the political dominance of the Medes and the first attestation of the Kurds. This is not to deny that there may have been some continuity in the population of the area as a whole."[79]
Gernot Ludwig Windfuhr, professor of Iranian Studies, identified the Kurdish languages as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum, he states that "the majority of those who now speak Kurdish most likely were formerly speakers of Median dialects.[80] This view was also supported by linguist Tadeusz Milewski who stated that "the Kurdish dialects in Northwestern Iran are continuants o the old Median language."[81] The Kurdologist and Iranologist Garnik Asatrian argued that "The Central Iranian dialects, and primarily those of the Kashan area in the first place, as well as the Azari dialects (otherwise called Southern Tati) are probably the only Iranian dialects, which can pretend to be the direct offshoots of Median... In general, the relationship between Kurdish and Median is not closer than the affinities between the latter and other North Western dialects – Baluchi, Talishi, South Caspian, Zaza, Gurani, Kurdish(Soranî, Kurmancî, Kelhorî)[82][83] Asatrian also stated that "there is no serious ground to suggest a special genetic affinity within North-Western Iranian between this ancient language [Median] and Kurdish. The latter does not share even the generally ephemeric peculiarity of Median."[84]
John Limbert, a professor of Iranian Studies, asserts "Although some scholars have dismissed the Kurds' claim of Median descent, linguistic and geographical evidence supports these claims. All Kurdish dialects have maintained the-basic characteristics of Kurdish despite the wide -dispersion of the tribes. This fact suggests that there was an ancient and powerful language from which the dialects evolved. Kurdish could well be descended from the Median language or languages which spread into Asia Minor after the fall of the Assyrian empire in 612 B.C. Geographically, this is very interesting, since according to Herodotus the western frontier of the Median empire was the Halys River (Kizil Irmak), which is just about as far west as Kurds are found today."[85]
According to Alireza Shapour Shahbazi: "The Aryan tribes including the Medes (ancestors of many Iranians, particularly the Kurds), Persians, Hyrcanians (...)".[86]
According to The Cambridge History of the Kurds,
Although some Kurdish authors have claimed descendants for Kurdish from Avestan and Median, a direct link of Kurdish with Avestan was ruled out in Iranian philology even back in its initial stages (cf. Rödiger and Pott, 1842, cited in Lecoq, 1997: 31), while Avestan, although its classification is also unresolved, is traditionally considered to be closer to Eastern Iranian languages (cf. Korn, 2016: 403). Furthermore, the purported relationship of Kurdish to the Median language, although defended by Minorsky based mostly on conjectural historical evidence (Minorsky, 1940: 143–6), is not supported by linguistic evidence, since information about the Median language is extremely limited and indirect, being mostly restricted to the loanwords found in the Old Persian inscriptions (Lecoq, 1987: 674).4 As Lecoq (1997: 31) states in relation to the Kurdish–Median connection, everything is possible but nothing is demonstrable. But even the limited data at hand provide evidence against Kurdish–Median genetic affinity (Asatrian, 2009: 21; MacKenzie, 1999: 675–6; Rossi, 2010: 308). Refuting thus the Median origin of Kurdish, MacKenzie (1961) outlined a picture of the evolution of North-western Iranian languages where Kurdish and Persian evolved in parallel and therefore Kurdish "represented an early splitting from the linguistic subgroup of Median" (cf. Rossi, 2010: 307–8). Likewise, in his survey of major isoglosses in the historical phonology of West Iranian languages, Windfuhr (1975: 458) concluded on the basis of these facts (and with regard to the subsequent migration of the Kurds into the Median territory – explained below) that Kurdish can probably not be considered a ‘Median’ dialect neither linguistically nor geographically, stating further that the modern Iranian languages of Azerbaijan (originally ‘Aturpatakan’) and Central Iran (e.g. Sivandi) are Median dialects (Windfuhr, 2009: 15).[87]
According to Iranologist Richard Foltz "the Kurdish language may indeed be descended from the Median language, but the same is true for Old Azeri." and "Kurdish ethnicity most probably evolved as a synthesis between intrusive Iranian tribes (including the Medes) with the pre-existing local inhabitants during the early first millennium BCE."[88]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khorler (talk • contribs) 00:07, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've written about this various times, so I'm not gonna bother find and list the sources again (u can find those in my other messages, heck even in Wikipedia articles). Modern scholarship acknowledges that the Kurds were not an ethnicity till the late Middle Ages, and that the word 'Kurd' in the Sasanian era was used to designate Iranian nomads. Just because the Kurds are referred to as 'Medes' does not mean that they have any connection with them, same reasons as Persians are referred to as Parthians or Medes (such as in the Res Gestae of Ammianus Marcellinus). This obsession with the Medes needs to stop, they have no connection with the Kurds (not to mention they're two completely different ethnic groups), and the theory is only popular in internet forums. You were already reverted for this addition back in January 2020, so why are you attempting to reinstate it again? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:14, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

text: That's the equivalent of saying 'can you show sources which say that the French and English are two distinct ethnic groups.' Read the sources listed in the article, especially the new ones, there's no proof that the Kurds were descended from the Medes, let alone being the 'same ethnic group'. Cherry-picking sources which mentions that the Kurds are called Medes in order to push a connection is Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. Should I start doing the same for Persians, who are referred to as Medes/Parthians? "Yet in Roman literary texts there is no single term used to describe the Sasanians, who are generally defined as Persians, Medians or even Parthians (not always for purely rhetorical reasons), even by very competent historians, like Ammianus Marcellinus." - p. 47 The Parthian and Early Sasanian Empires: Adaptation and Expansion. Or perhaps we should say Parthian = Median? "Already by Mani’s time, however, Pahlavi had come to mean Median to others." - p. 31, The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran: Rural Revolt and Local Zoroastrianism. You are now threatening to be disruptive, I highly advise you to refrain from that, as you have not reached WP:CONSENSUS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:32, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

text: It does not seem you understood my comment. TLDR; What you're trying to do is violating WP:OR, WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:PSTS and WP:TENDENTIOUS. I highly advise you to WP:DROPTHESTICK and read the guidelines. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:54, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Minorsky's view about Kurds and Medes is already mentioned in the relevant section, but his view has been rejected by the mainstream of modern reliable sources.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 01:13, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is politically edited 

message: This article is littered with contentious material that is completely uncited and there are vague allusions to authority.
For some reason the "controversy" section precedes the actual article, and seems supported only by a single source.
This is not just unusual formatting, it's clearly some kind of ideological bias- why I cannot fathom.
Someone please delete the uncited claims, move "controversy" the the bottom of the article where it should be and delete the vague allusions to unnamed "scholars".
--1.159.79.1 (talk) 03:17, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi IP, could you please clarify ? Which unsourced claims should be removed ?---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 05:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vague sources, appeals to authority, uncited claims 

message: It is shown on the top map but the Black Sea is not mentioned in the article Chidgk1 (talk) 17:30, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  How do we know the empire reached the Black Sea?