Talk:1872 Scotland v England football match

message: The article (in its current form) does not give suitable recognition to the Scotland team for playing a passing game. The contemporary account of passing from the Graphic illustrated newspaper is partially quoted in the article but is immediately and unfairly criticised. Individual references to Scottish players dribbling the ball are highlighted (as if passing and dribbling somehow cannot coincide in team based tactics or playing styles).
By 1872 Queen’s Park had developed a ‘culture of passing’ which augmented the traditional dribbling style prevalent in the Association game. The Scotland team, made up entirely of Queen’s Park members, retained this playing style for the first international match against England. The argument for this statement is provided below.
Specific references contained within the primary sources for the first international football match can be better understood by building up a profile of the contemporary Queen’s Park style through the methodology of propospography. A range of information including eyewitness accounts of the game, analysis of the Queen’s Park playing style from notable experts, and evidence from other Queen’s Park matches from around the time of this game help to contextualise the primary newspaper sources and certainly explain why references for passing and dribbling are attributed to the Scotland team.
The simple fact remains that the style of game adopted by Scotland (Queen’s Park) in this match, as in other matches of the period, involved passing and dribbling. Certainly the players dribbled the ball but when it was more advantageous to make a pass the players passed. Charles W. Alcock’s own observation on the success of Queen’s Park teams states, 'It has been the combination of dribbling and passing that has made the Queen's Park and other Scotch elevens such splendid teams'.
Even the Graphic newspaper article which gives an important reference to ball passing amongst the Scotland team also gives a specific reference to a Scotland player dribbling the ball (already quoted in the article). The inclusion of individual references to dribbling does not take away from the notion that the Scotland team were also passing the ball. 
There are other examples around the time of this game which demonstrates a passing culture within the Queen’s Park team. One good example can be quoted from a match which took place eight months before the first international match. Another good example comes less than three months after the first international. In the first example the Field magazine notes of the Queen’s Park team in the FA Cup semi final tie against Wanderers (March 1872)…
“They dribble little and usually convey the ball by a series of long kicks, combined with a judicious plan of passing on.”
The Glasgow Herald newspaper’s coverage of the semi final tie shows a marked difference in styles between the Glasgow and London playing styles,
“The play of the Glasgow 11 was most creditable, as their forwards worked well together, and their backs kicked with great accuracy. On the other hand, the Wanderers dribbled and played skilfully.... but collectively they hardly showed so well as their antagonists.”
In February 1873, less than three months after the first international, Queen’s Park are quoted playing a five man passing move in their match against Vale of Leven…
“Shortly before time was called the Queen's Park came away in fine style, and drove their opponents before them - Messrs Gardner, Leckie, Wotherspoon, Taylor and M'Kinnon working beautifully to each other's feet.”
All of the five players mentioned in this passage played for Scotland in the first international match. 
Now examine the ‘eyewitness’ account of Walter Arnott which gives specific detail as to the respective playing styles of the two teams in the first international football match,
“The English team was by far the heavier one. Their forwards played an individual game, and were much faster than those on the Scottish side, whose forward work was done in pairs. What a treat it was to see Clegg or Ottaway getting their ball near their own goal, and making off at a great pace down the field, and only being robbed of it by someone in the last line of the Scottish defence! Then, again, to watch the great Jamie Weir – the prince of dribblers – and his partner, by splendid combined play rushing down the wing and centring the ball with great accuracy right into the goal-mouth.”
The team work adopted by English Association sides at this time has subsequently been labelled as ‘backing up’. This system was one of cooperation with a pack of forwards working together to support the dribbler in possession of the ball. It involved team work and cooperation but was not a passing culture. The fact that the England XI was made up from representatives of nine different clubs would help to explain why the Scotsman newspaper reports the following,
‘During the first half of the game the English team did not work so well together, but in the second half they left nothing to be desired in this respect’.
This passage does not mean that the Scotland and England teams of 1872 had similar playing styles, rather that the 11 England players by the second half were starting to come to terms with each others play, something perhaps understandably that had been missing in the first half. 
The primary sources can be better understood once placed within a wider context. The fact that the Scotland players came from one club clearly enabled the club style of play to be adopted. The Scotsman therefore can state that the Scotland team “worked from first to last well together, through knowing each others play” while the Herald observes that "The strong point of the home club was that they played excellently well together."
The Graphic illustrated newspaper provides a reflective overview of the game. It is a primary source published within two weeks of the match (the second available date for publication of this weekly paper) and is based on the observations of the Glasgow based sketch artist, who attended the game. The style of the article is that of a weekly newspaper reflecting on a game that had already been well covered by the daily newspapers, hence the following line,
“We shall not here describe the match, every incident of which, as detailed in the sporting journals, has doubtless long since been perused by football enthusiasts…”
The article once again draws upon the different styles of the respective teams with credit being given to individual players on the England side and the Scots, collectively, being credited with passing the ball.
“Individual skill was generally on England's side, the dribbling of Kirke Smith, Brockbank, and Ottaway being very fine, while Welch, half-back, showed himself a safe and good kick. The Southrons, however, did not play to each other so well as their opponents, who seem to be adepts in passing the ball”
Based on this information, the article should give credit to the culture of passing that Queen’s Park had developed and which was subsequently adopted by the Scotland team in this historic match.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.68.188 (talk) 14:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: The playing style of Scotland in 1872

message: There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Barbados v Grenada (1994) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 00:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
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message: The article currently states that all 11 Scottish players played for Queen's Park, citing a page on the BBC website.  According to the very detailed contemporary report in the North British Daily Mail, this is not quite true.  The following players are given as playing for clubs other than Queen's Park:
* William Kerr: Granville
* James Smith: South Norwood
* Robert Smith: South Norwood
This is supported by the Wikipedia page for James Smith, which shows him at South Norwood from 1870 onwards.  It also suggests that Charles Clegg should be listed as playing for Sheffield FC rather than Sheffield Wednesday, and that Kirke-Smith represented Oxford rather than Cambridge University. Grover cleveland (talk) 08:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Club affiliations of players