Talk:Totem pole

message: Just did a big rewrite. This article needs to be read over by others. Please make corrections and leave comments. Post questions below for anything that seems vague or unclear. I will also add some references at some point, although much of what's written here is off the top of my head. I'm no expert but I've lived with totem poles and have been taught about them all my life so I know more than enough to give plenty of accurate, verifiable details.
Something that needs some serious consideration is the image problem. By this I mean that images of totem poles and other NW Coast art, though allowed by Canadian and U.S. law, are not allowed without permission under the laws and customs of most NW Coast cultures. So most of the images in Wikipedia should be cleared by cultural representatives to be totally proper. There may be even be some legal precedent, at least in the U.S., for implied copyright of native designs, but IANAL. I can probably get permission for most of the Tlingit and Haida works that belong to Alaskan groups from Sealaska/CCTHITA or clan representatives, but I can't do so for B.C. or Washington art. And I'm pretty sure that permission to display the designs won't be released under any GFDL-type license; only for Wikipedia use.
Once permission is obtained I'd love to add a few examples of Northern and Southern styles, examples of various famous poles, and pictures drawn by some of the early European explorers. This article has lots of potential for FA status. — Jéioosh 04:28, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really see any problem with taking pictures of poles, in public parks such as Thunderbird Park and posting them up here for identification and education purposes -- even if copyrights were claimed, this usage falls under fair use. heqs 12:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After talking with several elders I believe that you’re right. They all strongly supported the idea of using pictures for educational uses such as in Wikipedia. Their main complaint was with pictures or copies of designs which are used for commercial purposes, something which is not a problem here. — Jéioosh 22:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ownership and permission

message: I've deleted the reference to Ed Galloway's Totem Pole Park because the "totem pole" in question has nothing to do with this article. My reasoning is from the thesis of the article: this pole is not carved from wood, it was not made by a Native American, and was not made according to the cross-cultural rules of Pacific Northwest Coast native art. It has nothing to do with totem poles at all other than being a massive vertical outdoor sculpture, and I don't feel that its peculiar height lends any justification to its listing here. — Jéioosh 03:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Not a totem pole

message: I'm having a hard time relating the ideas in these three articles. They seem to be describing three completely different concepts. If they're really unrelated, that should be explained. If they are in fact related, then there's something wrong with the articles. The totemism article says the word comes from an Ojibwe word, but the totem article seems to imply that it's from Chinese. Or is the Chinese word totim actually derived from the English word totem? I think this should be clarified. --Bcrowell 15:51, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[totem]], [[totemism]], [[totem pole]]

message: I removed several references to pictography in the article. Totem poles are in no way pictographic, they cannot be "read" and do not encode language. Instead they are "iconic", they stand for other sorts of information, extralinguistic knowledge. Pictography is a simple form of writing to represent language, iconography is instead a form of representational art which has in general no linguistic content. — Jéioosh 19:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You've done a good job with this article so far - keep up the good work. It needs someone like you to improve it further. heqs 12:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't look now, but there's this article on here called Pictography... it cites a book by Ishmael Reed as saying totem poles are pictographic (there is a para in this article that cites "Reed 2003" as well, btw...) heqs 07:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictography

message: I added some new images, I hope it does not make it too cluttered. I think this subject desrves alot of illustration. I photographed these poles in Victoria, BC HighInBC 17:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They look good. Do you have any info on names, which tribe carved them, etc.? That would be helpful for this article. — Jéioosh 21:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Each pole has a story, and a family associated with them, much in the same way as a heraldic crest.  I suggest that the story of each pole, if known, be included.  I thought maybe also Marius Barbeau's Totem Poles (Nat'l Museum of Canada publ. I think) might be included as a ref/further reading, although his anthropological observations are out-of-date; but the two-volume sets documents the stories associated with each and every pole and house-painting featured....Skookum1 22:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know their history, however I can go back to the image pages and give their precise locations. The one's I did at thunderbird park had information added by another editor. HighInBC 23:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

text: With the first few images that HighInBC took at Thunderbird Park, I was able to look each one up on the interpretive tour on the Park's website, and get detailed reference info. Next best thing to being there, I must say. I'll try and turn up the same kind of thing for others as time permits... heqs 21:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

text: heqs, your my hero! I have added precise location via google maps links on each of my totem pole pictures. Hope this helps. HighInBC 00:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New images 

message: *The beginnings of totem pole construction are not known though recent DNA evidence suggests Tlingit literature may date from thirty thousand years ago when the Bering Strait was still the Bering land bridge (Reed 2003, p.XX)
**Garfield, Viola E. and Forrest, Linn A. (1961). The Wolf and the Raven: Totem poles of Southeastern Alaska. Revised edition. Seattle, Washington: University of Washington Press. . Cited in Reed, Ishmael, ed (2003). From Totems to Hip-Hop: A Multicultural Anthology of Poetry Across the Americas, 1900-2002. .
Why? Hyacinth 00:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed

message: I have just been looking at this page with one of my children, and we have found it a very good article. However the first sentence makes reference to totem poles starting in Africa, but makes no further reference to Africa, and moves, I think, to North America without a transition.
I do not have the knowledge to offer what should be written, but I think it might be helpful if this first part were edited to make it clearer.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amandawoodfield (talk • contribs) 09:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What you saw was a recent change that I identified as vandalism.  I have reverted it.  Thanks for pointing it out. Dkreisst 22:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Africa

message: I assume that most totem poles in the Pacific Northwest are made of the douglas fir tree.  But then again, I suppose any kind of tree will do.  In any case, the main article indicates that many totem poles are left to rot with time (as rotting is a natural process), or left to the elements when a tribe abandons an area, and so are not restored or maintained.
:Actually as far as I know, most poles are red cedar.  But in modern times I've seen and heard of them being in what ever kind of food.  Along with the rotting process, there are poles that are refurbished and restored.  Actually, the totem pole village tourist attraction in Stanley Park in Vancouver, basically their just plastic now.  They've been coded so much it will take forever for them to rot because they have what seems like a plastic bubble.  It's a philosophical thing of the carver/artists and the community.  Some keep the old ways and let it rot, others see differently. OldManRivers (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard of them being bound together.  I know people glue wood together now, to carve larger structures and such because of the scacity of large cedar wood to work with.  OldManRivers (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about maintenance 

message: This removed link I thought worth re-posting here for further consideration; it contains a number of apocrypha and speculation and should not be considered authoritative in anyway a a reliable source; it does contain interesting bibliographical items, but is written not for informational purposes but to define curriculum content.Skookum1 (talk) 15:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Yale courselink

message: Would an Asherah pole be considered a type of totem pole? Perhaps a See also section could be added with a link to that? Or maybe even under the "Totem poles outside North America" section? OlEnglish (talk) 00:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All such comparisons are OR and shoudl be deleted; the one exception is the Ainu reference, as there is in fact some cultural connection and they are also clan symbols (not religious icons).  If all carved pillars were to be included, nearly all world cultures at some point would be included; only those which have been compared in reliable sources to totem poles shoudl be here; the Korean reference should be struck out, in the same way a tiki would not belong or a stela from Toltec or Maya culture.  NB there is also a difference between "totem pole" and "totemic pole" or anything else "totemic".  Totem poles are more like coats of arms than they are any kind of religious object of worship; their nature is more heraldic and to do with status/rank and family legacy/history than with any of the purposes of the other poles; there is also an observed anthropological link with the Ainu and the Ainu poles are often compared to Northwest Coast poles; the same is not true of the Korean objects and the Asherah pole.Skookum1 (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asherah pole? 

message: Is there a type of totem pole called a "Scrotum pole"? That phrase redirects here, but there is no mention of scrotum poles in this article.
:Not as far as I know.  The creator of the redirect also created the dognut redirect. Dkreisst (talk) 21:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I prodded it, it will be gone shortly.Skookum1 (talk) 22:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scrotum Pole redirect 

message: Two of the images are turned sideways. I don't know how to modify the image pages and don't have the wherewithal to look it up. Just thought I'd point it out. 
Thanks!
--Geekdiva (talk) 07:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, the 2 images have now been rotated at commons. Melburnian (talk) 02:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help request: 2 images are turned sideways 

message: The totem named the Three Frog shame totem is misnamed.  I don't know what it is, but this is a link to the actual three frog totem-- http://www.sederquist.com/Alaska2007/Images/wrangell7.jpg
I don't know how to change it in the article or I would do so.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.211.28.187 (talk) 15:08, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source for the correct name? Dkreisst (talk) 20:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misnamed totem picture 

message: A link with this article's title was on Alert Bay, British Columbia and I know there's several other places that make this claim about their poles.  Strikes me there should be a List of tallest totem poles or some such list where they can be listed and compared; each in succession no doubt was the tallest of its time, or in its original location sometimes, but clearly "there can be only one".Skookum1 (talk) 08:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "world's tallest" 

message: thumb|right|200px|the Raven pole, centre with wisdom hat.. 
Years ago, I saw a totem pole in Toronto (College Park lower shopping level near Bay street)  made by a west coast artist that had in its description reference to the wisdom hat.  The top of the totem had the figure of an elder (deceased IIRC) and this figure was wearing a hat made of several rings stacked above each other.  The description indicated that the number of rings indicated the wisdom of the elder.  You can see such a hat in the photo: 
I've seen such hats on other poles, including one in the British Museum in 2009.
What I have never seen is a description of wisdom hats in place other than the Toronto art work.  Does anyone have a source for such a thing - I think it would be good to add to the article if it is legit. 99.245.248.91 (talk) 01:15, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wisdom hats 

message: This is arguably one of the most recognizable of all totem poles, being featured on a well-known $1 Canadian Stamp, as well as being prominently displayed in the British Museum.  Does anyone oppose the British Museum being referenced in the "Totem Poles of Note" section in the notable collections list?  I believe the examples in the British Museum deserve reference in this article. IcehouseCover (talk) 23:11, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kayung Totem Pole 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article begins by stating that "[t]otem poles are monumental sculptures carved on poles, posts, or pillars with symbols or figures made from large trees, mostly western red cedar, by indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest coast of North America (northwestern United States and Canada's western province, British Columbia)". I don't understand how a symbol or figure can possibly be "made from large trees". Imerologul Valah (talk) 08:57, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence is ambiguous 

message: Now we have a new article Ceremonial pole, Please see and include suitable improvements , if any, in article  Ceremonial pole].
Rgds
Mahitgar (talk) 11:07, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceremonial pole 

message: *Mangrohan (Devnagari:मंगरोहन) is a Totem pole raised on marraige occasion in Chhattisgarh, India.https://cgsongs.wordpress.com/tag/डॉ-सत्यभामा-आडिल/  
:While above ref prima facia seems reliable, but en wiki has additional conditions as WP:RS and translation also would be needed from Hindi to English. So if some one works on this then worth addition to the article.
Mahitgar (talk) 11:15, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looking for [[WP:RS]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It appears as though there's none on Wikipedia. Is there a reason these have been omitted? Are they under a different name for some reason? This cultures are where totem poles originated and spread so it's surprising the oldest totem poles aren't listed here! 121.210.33.50 (talk) 08:02, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trying to find Nordic / Germanic / Kievan-Rus totem pole information. 

message: While it may not exactly towering pole, Polynesian or Formosan culture often referred as "tiki" also feature animal / human depiction stacked on top of one another.
I was here looking for some collection of information regarding this similarity which is quite obvious to me, don't you think? YogiHalim (talk) 10:19, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: we'd need reliable sources (that is, archaeological sources) referring to these as totem poles. Doug Weller talk 10:52, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polynesian, Formosan Taiwan, Dayak Indonesia 

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* EpcotCanadaTotem.JPG
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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion