Wikipedia talk:Deletion reform/Proposals/Uncontested deletions

message: As the originator of this proposal (although it is far from original - Radiant! suggested something similar recently) can I ask that this be a discussion, not a poll at this stage. --Doc (?) 21:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

message: Good idea.  No code changes needed.  Let's do it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 19:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A relatively small number of AfD articles are ever truly contested. Most are either overwhelmingly slated for deletion or overwhelmingly slated to be kept. I think we need a process to filter both kinds out quickly - this helps for those that are obvious (but not speedy) deletes, I'd also like to see a proposal for accelerated retention of obvious (but not speedy) keeps.  BD2412 talk 21:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This does not solve quick 'keeps' - but most uncontested nominations are 'delete'. However, it may help the 'keep' cases, as if someone nominates for deletion under this system, if the tag is subsequently removed - and a good reason given on the talk page (i.e. 'yes he is notable, you've missed this ...' or verifying references are added) there is good chance that the nominator will not push the point and take the matter to afd/contested deletions. --Doc (?) 21:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, I hope it works out exactly that way.  BD2412 talk 22:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: This will also make speedy deletions easier for admins. Right now there are a good deal of dubious speedies tagged. An admin could just retag with this tag in those cases. Thue | talk 17:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't agree more....there are a lot of out-of-process speedy deletions and this would be a great alternative. Rx StrangeLove 20:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: General Comments

message: Excellent. I'd say we do this post haste, or at the very least give it a trial run for a couple of weeks; it would really help to alleviate AFD pressure (and associated wikistress).
Some ideas to consider...
#An objection to this proposal has been that vandals can abuse it. While that is true, it's hardly a reason to oppose this, since vandals can abuse just about anything else (including the present deletion system) and we have pretty good systems to deal with vandals. Surely nobody would oppose the page moving feature just because it's abusable.
#Another objection to this proposal has been that putting a deletion tag on an article is not very nice to the author of that article. Once more, while this is true, it's hardly a reason to oppose this, since the plain fact is that people write articles that do not belong in an encyclopedia. Unless we want to abolish deletion entirely, there will be some way of tagging articles, and this may be perceived as unfriendly. On that account, the present system is worse.
#I'd prefer a syntax of  and getting a bot to modify the template each day at midnight to get the correct date in there. Otherwise, the category system may be hampered by various ways of spelling the date (03-20, 20-03, 20/3, March 20, etc).
#It would be best if the tag could not be added multiple times by the same user, but it could still be removed multiple times by the same user. It should be obvious that any revert warring regarding PD should immediately be cut short and superseded by AFD.
#To counteract the fact that "obvious keeps" sometimes end up on AFD, it may be useful to propose that if you PD an article, you cannot AFD it, but instead must get someone else to do it. This effectively means that any motion to delete an article must be seconded before the community will discuss it. According to Wikipedia:AFD_100_days, 5.7% of AFDs are "unanimous keeps" and thus wouldn't have had someone to second the nomination.
#The template should be worded so that it encourages people to edit - e.g. if an article is PD'ed because it lacks sources, people should, if they're editing it anyway to remove the tag, be encouraged (but not required) to add a source or two.
Radiant_>|< 08:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes

message: I nominate a lot of stuff for AfD, so I'd like to see a way for that to become easier (even after memorizing the templates, it's still a lot of edits..). These category-based solutions are a nice way of getting the computers to do some of the mechanical work.
One thing that bums me about this proposal, though, is that there is no way to record one's "vote to delete" when browsing the proposed deletion category. This means that if the discussion is moved to AfD, there's no record of that scrutiny. It's not a deal-breaker, but it does mean that the work for contested deletions becomes a bit more redundant. — brighterorange (talk) 13:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an easy solution to that: set up a separate section on the talk page, perhaps called "Should we delete this article?" (or even "We should delete this article"), and leave your comment there.  Since deletion discussions are about consensus and not voting, your comments could then by copied verbatim to the AfD subpage, if one is created, just as long as the timestamp was kept intact to indicate what version you viewed to form your opinion.  <FONT COLOR="#66CCFF">Un</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000CC">focused</FONT> 16:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  One downside 

message: This will make it much harder to follow what is going on. It assumes that every article is seen by someone who knows about this process in any given period of a few days, which may often not be the case. Most new articles are probably seen by very few people so this system will expose them to bad faith nominations which may not be spotted. It will also take much more effort to review the category for inappropriate deletionist activity than to scan the articles for deletion page, as nothing but the titles will be visible at first glance. 
I don't accept that afd is overloaded in any case. There is still an adequate level of voting on the nominees, unlike on Categories for deletion, which is rather neglected. CalJW 19:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We'll need to agree to disagree on the first point, but your observation about AfD closers is correct. I've relisted  articles in the past, but from now on in the absense of any 'keep' vote I will delete. --Doc (?) 22:45, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we might eventually see on VFU whether doing that is actually supported by the community, but I think changes like that are a much more moderate way to combat the supposed problems with the current system. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree, this is a nice, clean way of streamlining a lot of deletions. It could be structured like AFD only it'd look much simpler. List a page and if it's still there in 5 days delete it. If an (>100edits) editor feels it needs more attention they can move it to AFD. Otherwise, no debate or comments....certainly no voting. It'll make a noticable impact on AFD...I really like this. Rx StrangeLove 21:42, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I could go for this as a compromise. However, it isn't actualy clear that it is less complicated. Under my scheme, an obviously junk article gets tagged and if no-one objects, in x days it is deleted. Simple for most articles (other than disputed ones). With Rd232's scheme, you'd still need to tag it, and then list it on a special uncontested deletions page (not a lot less work than Afd)! --Doc (?) 21:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, I mis-read something above and in my haste to get on board I was too hasty. I could go either way I guess but using categories makes more sense, the uncontested deletions page would maintain itself and you do have to touch each article either way anyway. How do you suggest we go forward with this? Rx StrangeLove 22:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The big advantage of a page is that it allows for comments and questions and requests for clarification and clarification - i.e. discussion. This is difficult in the category approach. In my initial thought I'd suggested using the same subpage approach as AfD - in which case yes, there's no less work for the nominator (but less for the community, as they don't need to support obviously-going-to-succeed nominations). A variation to save work for nominators would be to merely list the page and reason, and omit the subpage step unless either (a) the nomination is moved to AfD (moving any discussion to the subpage) or (b) the result is Delete, and there is discussion worth saving for future reference. (If Keep, just move any discussion worth saving to the article talk page.) Rd232 talk 15:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think this proposal works best when there is no discussion. It's meant for uncontested deletions, if there's something to talk it should happen on it's talk page or at AFD. If there's discussion allowed then it's just another layer to AFD and not useful. I think the real value here is funneling off deletions from AFD that are easy and obvious that don't need any discussion. I understand what you are saying for sure but I think the deletion canidates you are talking about would end up at AFD anyway. My understanding is that this is meant to work at the low levels of non-speedy terrain. Rx StrangeLove 20:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps there's room for both - the category approach for pretty clearcut cases, and my approach for grey areas where nominators aren't sure where it fits / whether it will be contentious and require discussion.  Rd232 talk 22:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Some safeguards could be: 1)List longer than 5 says - say 7-14, if swifter deletion is thought essential nominators can sull use afd. 2)Automatic right of retrospective contesting. Since it is deleted as 'uncontested deletion' any editor may retrospectively contest it and ask for it to be recreated and listed on afd. 3) (?possibly?) An explicate ban on 'notability' as a deletion criteria for this scheme - notability deletions must always go to afd (as the principle is always contested). --Doc (?) 15:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

text: This isn't, IMO, about being inclusionist or otherwise; it isn't "slap a delete tag on any page for any reason and if it isn't challenged it goes". The criteria and process should apply to a well-defined class of pages which won't survive AfD but can't be deleted under CSD; it's sort of a concretisation of policy, saving people's energy for the grey areas where it isn't clear what would happen on AfD. I see from your contributions you have (recently anyway) only participated in 1 AfD, in which case, you may not appreciate why this is needed. Rd232 talk 16:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Opposed to this scheme

message: This proposal makes deletion the DEFAULT status. Thi is enitrely the wrong, non-inclusionist direction to be goin in. Thdre should be STRONG reasons to delete, rather than it being presme to be the natural, normal best thing to do, all things being equal. Trust in the editors and allow complete reversion. Eliminate Dletions special status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boldymumbles (talk • contribs) 28 October 2005
:This isn't, IMO, about being inclusionist or otherwise; it isn't "slap a delete tag on any page for any reason and if it isn't challenged it goes". The criteria and process should apply to a well-defined class of pages which won't survive AfD but can't be deleted under CSD; it's sort of a concretisation of policy, saving people's energy for the grey areas where it isn't clear what would happen on AfD. I see from your contributions you have (recently anyway) only participated in 1 AfD, in which case, you may not appreciate why this is needed. Rd232 talk 16:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose Strongly

message: Someone above made a comment that the current deletion system is working, so why change? The current system arguably does work, but the writing is plainly on the wall as to how it can continue. The bigger wiki gets, then obviously the more deletion candidates there will be, and I saw some statistics suggesting this growth will be exponential. There is no way any centralised system can cope with this long-term.
I am against automatic unverified deletion, especially for an encyclopedia which is very big, especially the bigger it gets. Any new system has to to allow de-centralised, but still verified, deletion... and I can only see this being done on the actual article page. But more, I see no way this can be done in a hurry. The only way to allow debate on an obscure article is to allow enough time for a reasonable number of editors to have reason to read the page. The current quick centralised debates are very much too quick for this to happen. Perhaps some of you who have become accustomed to just a one week debate might consider the merits of a very much longer but more automatic system. 1-3 months seems reasonable. 
This may seem the same question as another above, simply about the time limit. I created a separate section because I feel I am trying to make a subtly different point. That a fundamentally different outlook on the reasons for deletion, verification and speed is needed. 
Oh, and given sufficient delay I am in favour, because I think that eventually there will be no alternative to this kind of schemeSandpiper 08:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There will certainly be cases where longer debate may be appropriate. The difficulty is distinguishing those from cases which shouldn't be allowed to stay around vastly longer than necessary. Currently we have only speedy or AfD; if we had something viable inbetween, it would be easier to make AfD more flexible and allow borderline cases to go on for longer on an agreed ad hoc basis, eg at request of nominator or of voters. Rd232 talk 10:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Popped back to see how the debate was going. Noticed the introductory coment again, that 60% of deletions were uncontested, so might be hurried along this way, reducing the load by 2/3. Interesting argument, supportive of this kind of thing. But it also suggests this is really only a sticking plaster on a wound that keeps getting bigger.  That still leaves the 1/3 of a growing big number.Sandpiper 08:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purpose of Scheme 

message: ::"Cards on the table" department: The only people who could conceivably oppose this are those editors who appear to have taken it as their mission to flood WP with "articles" of dubious relevance, encyclopedic value, compositional skill, and (yes) readability. 
::Let's face facts. It is too *$#$%^&* hard to get rid of what is manifestly garbage on WP. Much of this garbage is generated by a very few editors with a great deal of time on their hands, editors who are quite consciously taking advantage of the comparative difficulty of deleting articles that would never, in a millennium, make it into any other encyclopedia. 
::Let's do this. BrandonYusufToropov 22:06, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have only one request:  that the creator of the article be notified on their talk page that the article is going to be deleted.  I don't think BYT is including me in the above description, but see potential for problems if this isn't done...  Tomer TALK 03:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I hear what you're saying, but I'd be cautious, it may defeat the purpose. 1) If a busy RC partoller has to tag, and then check the history - and notify the 'creator' - that's two action - actually not much less than sending to AfD (and that's what we're trying to make easier). Does he really need to do that for obvious near-nonsense? It's an invitation for creators of rubbish to remove the tags and defeat the whole scheme. That just creates work, as after taging and notifying, then the non has to go through the afd process as well. However, taking some of this on board, I'd suggest that the closing/deleting admin should notify any 'substantive creator' (if a logged-in user) after deletion. The notification template can inform the creator that he/she still can retrospectively contest the deletion - and ask for the article to be sent for dicussion at AfD (bad faith creators will then seldom bother with the effort).Doc ask? 11:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sometimes this will be worth doing, often not - if it's a recent creation by someone with few contributions they'll almost certainly check back to the article and see the notice there; and if it's a creation by someone with no recent contributions (or a shared IP) they probably won't see the talk page notice anyway. But if it helps get this off the ground then a guideline to notify the editor with greatest interest in the article who is likely to receive a message is fine by me. Rd232 talk 10:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  I'd be happy to give it a try. If it doesn't have the desired effect, or has horrible side-effects, the measure can always be reversed. Zora 03:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let's try it - there's an obvious way of measuring (and overturning) horrible side-effects - Deletion Review. If that gets rapidly overrun then we abandon Uncontested Deletions (or suspend pending the possibility of figuring out how to fix it). Rd232 talk 10:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it is easier than that. I proposed that all uncontested deletions can be retrospectively contested, ie. (unless they were speediable) on the request of any editor, an admin can restore and list of AfD. Also the 'closing' admin will have the option of sending an article to AfD instead - if he/she thinks that it ought to have been contested. All this means false possitives they are easily fixed. However, we can't try this without 1) proposing a set time for the process. (some want 5 days, some 3-4 weeks, so we might need to compromise at 10 or 14 days. 2) Some type of poll to test consensus? --Doc ask? 11:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support Strongly 

message: Hi. What you see is a editor that more or less hates me (or what i do). She see it as a huge problem that i created a article for "and then i was guided". Zora says: 
:" The books are non-notable. The articles are pointless. What use is an "encyclopedia" that is 99% junk?"
Lets see what other say about the book:
*Exact title on Google: google: 538 hits. 
*[allaahuakbar.net/shiites/second.htm Exposing Al-Tijani’s Lies in His Book:  “Then I was Guided”] - An entire article dedicated to refute the book.
*included in Islamic book stores 
* A guy that changed from Sunni to Shia due to reading the book and other books from the author 
*another refutal
*a third refutal by a third site
*more books online from the same author
You tell me, a book that makes people change world view and makes its enemies to write entire article to refute it, is that a non-notable book? That book is online in most big Shia sites: al-islam.org, Balagha.net. You tell me, if three sites bother to make three refutations to the same book, and the book is baned in many sunni countries, is it a non-notable book? I have heard that 20 000 people in one country became Shia after reading that book.
The ones calling it non-notable and bringing the article i wrote about it here, the ones doing so trying to convince you that i fill WP with 99% shit is either ignorant of the issue or driven by malice. The other articles i created are more or less the same. I mean, c'mon, they included Tafsir al-Mizan and Ibn Hajar Asqalani to the list of shity stubs! Anyone that knows what they are talking about knows that those are realy realy realy prominent books and authours
Curses in Islam is a totaly legit article, problem is, they dont like the information it contains. And that is the case with most of the articles they dont like. 
The other article they mentioned, i speeded it myself to make them happy, although i still belive it was a legit article.
"X contribution to the Battle of Z" is a format i like, but i didnt work on it, since people didnt like it. (peole as in not only Zora.) The naratives articles where the same, i stoped doing them, since people didnt like them.
In both cases, i belived i was drawing benefir from the medium: To be able to link to short articles  relevant to one person in events with multiple participants. If i want to get familiar with one person, then i might settle with reading the things he did in the battles he joined, and not read about the entire battle. But people did not agree, so i skiped it.
Now they think i am nuts since im creating article for each book that is used in references in Shia-Sunni polemics. Well, would the books be used in refereces if they where non-notable? Of course not.
BrandonYusufToropov is a person i like. We have ideological diffrences, and he does not like my edits, but i respect him anyway, since he is sincer and reasonable (most of the times). 
Zora, i hate her actions. Each day without her deleting my contributions is a day i dont get uppset. Unfortunatly, she is online every day. Whenever she gets to a article, the first thing she does is delet everyting i wrote, and motivate it by saying one line was pov or my grammar sucks. She belives its better to not creat a article and not contribute if one does not have her SUPERIOR MASTERSHIP IN ENGLISH GRAMMAR. Ie, only people with her superior grammar skills should be allowed to edit, also, if one with "sub-standard" english does edit, the appropriate solution is to delet the entire contribution.
Zora, i hope you take this as a lesson: People dont agree with you: They dont think i just make shity stubs, they dont think i suck. And yes, i am working on my RFC on you.
Zora: Her is my tip: You dont like my stubs? Dont look at them. Stop wastin my and the other peoples time. 
I wonder why not a single Shia editor has complained about anything i have done, ever. --Striver 03:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But I do think that some of the examples given highlight the problem we are trying to deal with.  May I suggest that this and the above discussion-in-detail is moved to something like Deletion reform/Examples to keep the temperature down in here?  I found it illuminating and while not entirely agrreing with the style, I can sympathise with the level of exasperation (I have a somewhat similar problem of linguistics in another context). - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] (W) AfD? 23:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Enter: Striver

message: There seems to be some continuing discussion about this, both for and against. I thought I'd try and lay out some of the points culled from the talk and project page, maybe bring some focus and get a sense if there's enough potential for good. It seems like there's at least enough support to try a live test. Please add anything I left out as there are sure to be things I neglected, and of course discuss/debate. Rx StrangeLove 03:59, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved this section down to get it out from under that last discussion, maybe refocus the topic. Feel free to move it back if anyone disagrees. Rx StrangeLove 04:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The proposa would be good if there was a risk for overload in the VFD section. As i have understand it, it is not. Further, i dont think that "delet" should be a default status. --Striver 04:21, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not really true: it depends on your tedium level. I find looking through lists of things which I know nothing about, and which apparently no one cares about anyway, as very tedious. For this reason I read VFD infrequently--as frankly doing so is mostly a waste of time--. I would presume many other people think this too, including people who are serious enough to spend lots of time reading these lists. So the system IS already broken, because it discourages participation. This can only get worse.Sandpiper 21:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I am cautiously in favour with the safeguard that the person deleting should not be the person nominating.  When you click a red link and there is dleeted content you get "view x deleted edits" - how would an original author faced with this situation on one of their articles go about getting it undeleted or properly reviewed?  If that were easy, I'd be a bit happier. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] (W) AfD? 23:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pros and Cons

message: I think this is a great idea.  I see in votes whenever either a) the author(s) don't write anything to protest the Vfd, b) the author says "okay then delete it" or otherwise admit it doesn't belong, c) its an obvious vandalism, d) there is 100% consensus very early on that its a bad article, or any of a number of other reasons.
BUT -
Just because a Vfd is uncontested doesn't mean that its necessarily bad.  I've seen a lot of examples where there were 6 (or more) deletes with no keeps on articles that had a lot of merit.  So we have to be careful with that kind of thing.  Sometimes people on here, as with anywhere else, act like sheep.  So we have to be wary of that kind of thing.
Even still, with a bit of tweaking, this could really work wonders.  Great idea! Zordrac • (talk) Wishy Washy • Darwikinian • Eventualist 04:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wonderful idea in theory, but... 

message: This proposal is basically ready to be used. We've been trying it out on XD for months now without problems. We can make "Uncontested deletions" categories that work just like the XD5 categories do. All we need is an admin to delete things after, say, 7 days. I know that Kim Bruning and Bunchofgrapes are interested in deletion reform in general, so we may be able to get their help.
Specifically, we should propose this as an optional alternative to AfD. I don't think huge numbers of people will have a reason to oppose that; if you love AfD, you probably want to reduce the load on it so that more informed discussion can take place there, and if you hate AfD, you want to reduce the load on it so its influence isn't as widespread.
What we need to do:
* Pick a time span for uncontested deletions. I suggest 7 days.
* Get an admin on board to do the deletions.
* Get some support (from Village Pump?) for making this semi-policy (it's "semi-" because you don't have to use it).
The things I'm afraid of: inclusionists and deletionists. Yeah, both groups. I don't see this optional process being objectionable to ordinary AfDers, but the people who are using AfD to push an agenda instead of to discuss things will probably not like this proposal. Inclusionists will complain that articles are getting deleted without discussion, and deletionists will complain that articles may be around for up to 12 days before getting deleted. But if we're waiting for deletion culture to change before we implement this proposal, we're going to be waiting a loooooong time. We might as well try.
rspeer 20:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Until deletions are more easily reversible by anyone (public and revertable histories, unless illegal), I think the possibility of perm deleting a number of salvageable articles is still too much of a problem.  See User:Here/delete for further thoughts on transparent deletion histories.  Nonetheless, I am generally in favor.  ∴ here…♠ 20:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, yes, I like the PWDS better too. (If deletion is reversible, it's basically PWDS, and includes the problems like "general fear of the unknown" and "has to be coded"). I wish we could get behind one proposal that can happen now, instead of waiting for some glorious day when it becomes completely obvious to everyone what needs to be done about deletion. If the wrong things get deleted, there's always deletion review. rspeer 20:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I forgot this had categories by day.  That should be enough to pull out contested cases and send them to AfD.  Go for it! ∴ here…♠ 22:22, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Well this would be in addition to AFD right? since an article can always be put up on RFA right away right? JtkieferT | C | @ ---- 02:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, if someone has an issue with a deletion here, they put it on AFD. This is meant to funnel articles away from AFD. One of the numbers cited on the project page is that 58% of articles on AFD are uncontested deletions. It should be easier to delete those while still having some checks on the process. Rx StrangeLove 03:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  So why don't we try it? 

message: This reminds me a lot of Wikipedia:Preliminary Deletion, my pet proposal (and the only major non-CSD deletion reform to ever receive a majority of support votes). Obviously I'm going to support this proposal. It does worry me that there's no centralised place to see the basic argument(s) for deletion, though (which is why PD had such a structure). Johnleemk | Talk 18:51, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the principals at work here is that people don't make arguments about deletion, the point is that it should be so clear why the article should go that arguments aren't needed. The articles appear in the category in which they can be browsed, if someone does have an argument it should go to AFD. Does that ease the concern....or did I misunderstand your point? It's not really meant as a RFD replacement but more of a way to reduce the workload there. Rx StrangeLove 01:50, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, rationale would have been a better word to use instead of argument. Even when you speedy delete, the delete log at least offers a chance for a one-sentence summary. When you propose to delete something, your rationale should be easily viewable from some centralised page. It would at least make tracking down rogue nominations easier. Johnleemk | Talk 01:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hell yeah, I love it

message: I'm not sure that this proposal is going to substantially reduce the amount of work spent on deleting bad articles, compared to AFD. It takes 3 edits to nominate an article for AFD; it will take one (actually two according to the current project page) to make a good nomination for deletion under this scheme. But when deletions are contested, we then have to go through the whole process of AFD as usual; a deletion nomation that went through both step would end up taking 4-5 edits. So if a substantial portion of the nomations at UD are disputed, this could end up being more work than the current system. Certainly, I don't think it represents a dramatic reduction in the workload. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this really going to be less work

message: Reasoned, reasonable, and efficient. All for it. And I say that as someone who lost a page important to me because I created it and lost it in an uncontested deletion when I was still figuring out Wiki and not checking often enough to even know that an AfD was happening until months later. Airumel 04:14, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Short on time but support the proposal 

message: When can we expect a formal proposal? -- Dalbury(Talk) 01:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This proposal seems to be very useful, even if it doesn't solve every problem. The only problem I can see with it is if someone takes down the pd tag...if you tag 30 pages for pd in a day, you may end up have far too many pages on your watch list. Sort of a minor thing...but at least with AfD, it only requires one page visit to get the deletion process going. Pd requires constant vigilance (of the watchlist). JHMM13 (T | C)   15:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice proposal 

message: As the original proposer, I still think this is a good and workable idea. I think that the commentary above shows that it has a lot of support, and with some tweeking could overcome many of the objections. However, looking at those opposed, I am concluding that a formal proposal would have little chnace of obtaining the required 70% rough consensus at this time. Thus, there is little point in formally moving this for adoption.  
Do folk agree? Please this is not a place to discuss the mertis of the proposal, but to assess the conclusions of the debate, and whether there is any point in proceeding.--Doc ask? 15:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would unfortunately agree. We either have to accept that major deletion process reform can never hope to achieve a 70% majority and lower the bar (probably unacceptable to many) or move on. Johnleemk | Talk 15:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, maybe with some adjusting we can ease some concerns as time goes by. I've been trying to answer the objections as they come on this page and it doesn't seem that anyone has any deep seated objections, at least to the point where they care enough to keep the dialog going. I don't think there's any need to shut it down at this point but it's probably not the time to do anything formal. You're right, major deletion reform is hard to get consensus on. Rx StrangeLove 17:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: People don't keep the dialog going because it doesn't look like anybody is pushing this towards . Also, it is under WP:AFD "recently concluded". If this one fails, I hope my one will achieve a bit more agreement (although there is really very little chance!) r3m0t talk 18:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this proposal dead in the water?