Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam/Archive 6

message: I ended up in the Mahdi family of articles (Also Hadith of Jesus praying behind Mahdi and Muhammad al-Mahdi) through wiki-browsing, and noticed a number of things that I thought were poorly done.  I proposed a few merges and made a big edit of the Mahdi article.  However, this isn't the area of Wikipedia that I normally contribute to, and I don't want to get into a revert war or any other contentious situation with people who feel that I am damaging these articles.  So, I figured I'd note it here and go back to my true love--Ancient China.  My worry is that people reading these articles will think that the Mahdi colloquially associated with Shia beliefs (That is, a Mahdi with prophet-like ability and station) is universally accepted by all Muslims.  Given that this is extremely topical with the international situation being what it is, I think it would be important if folks would ensure that these articles accurately reflect Islamic beliefs at large.  Elijahmeeks 19:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mahdi]] Article

message: Need people to contribute to the discussion and help end this so-far endless dispute over the lead of this article. The thread is here: Talk:Criticism_of_Islam#General_Context_to_Criticism. The thread is a lot less intimidating than it looks, because it basically consists of the same things said over and over again about ten times. - Merzbow 22:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Criticism of Islam]] lead 

message: Because we see so many editors who jump into Islam related Wikipedia and start edit warring and what not, I'm thinking we could make a new welcome template that welcomes people to WikiProject Islam. This would apply to new people who edit Islam related articles, in this way they are notified on their user page the Do's and Dont's while editing Islam related articles. Yes its already there on a welcome page but when its specific, these people will take it more seriously. Also there are some specific problems that only Islam related articles have. I'll try to create this welcome template sometime, copying other existing templates. Let me guess who will oppose this: ItaqAllah. --Matt57 22:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Let me guess who will oppose this: ItaqAllah." such comments are known as trolling, and are contrary to collaborative editing. with regards to your proposal: other WikiProjects have 'welcome kits' for new WikiProject members, why don't you draft a sample? ITAQALLAH 22:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That wasnt trolling, come on now. I'll make that template sometime. That should help with the problem of people jumping in, inserting their own opinions and removing sourced text. This is a serious problem for Islam related articles. Do you know of any similiar templates? --Matt57 23:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Here's a sample template: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aircraft/Welcome  - I think we will need to have something that will say "A welcome from the WikiPrject Islam", since they probably will not have requested a membership of this project. But still, we can greet them with a welcome from the Project and ask them to join if they havent. e.g. I'll start this sometime. --Matt57 23:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the template should be for new wikiproject members, not new users we want to invite. we already have an invitation template. ITAQALLAH 00:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We already have an invi template? Where? Let me know. I was about to make one right now. --Matt57 14:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: see the main page. ITAQALLAH 17:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats not what I'm talking about. That one is an invitation to join the project. I'll do what I was going to do and you'll see what I meant. --Matt57 23:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposing new Welcome template for new members to WikiProject Islam 

message: Could someone please look at this article, it's factuality and neutrality are disputed and it looks like a real belief that someone has tried to discredit or otherwise put a negative POV on. --killing sparrows 08:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have put there the actual hadith so there is no more confusion as to whether this is really true or not. --Matt57 13:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: the article [[72 Virgins]] 

message: Hi!
I'm the webmaster of http://www.muslimphotos.net/gallery. I've travelled to different places in the world which have a muslim socitety, history or religious importance. I've taken lots of pictues, and uploaded some 2700 of them to muslimphotos.net. Between half a year and a year ago, I put up some links to my page from different articles on wikipedia, to my general page, or to specific albums on muslimphotos (i.e. albums only containing pictures from the Umayyad mosque, Palestine, The Blue Mosque, Islamic architecture and so on). Just recently all of them were deleted, as they were looked as spam, and so was my user name. I've now requested a change of user name (to Battuta07). The ban on me has been lifted, as long as I don't continue "spamming". That is not something I ever wanted, or have intentions of doing in the future. 
I would therefore ask the administrators on the Islam project to review www.muslimphotos.net, and give their opinions if a link to muslimphotos.net from wiki articles would be appreicated and useful or not? For example to http://www.muslimphotos.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=55 from the Umayyad article and to http://www.muslimphotos.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=61 from the Al aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock article for example. An of course to muslimphotos.net from the Islam, Muslim and Islamic Architecure articles.
I'm asking in general now, as if a link on a general basis is not wanted, it will not be wanted for specific lesser articles either. I'm therefor not asking for a wildcard acceptance of my site. Thanks Muslimphotos 17:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you are welcome to download some of the images as long as you are willing to release them into public domein.--Sefringle 06:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  links to a photo gallery 

message: There is a discussion taking place at Talk:List of people with epilepsy with regard to the entry on Muhammad. I'd be grateful for some opinions from project members. I don't wish the entry to be gratuitously offensive, but I'm also conscious of the need to uphold Wikipedia's policies on NPOV, etc. Please reply on that talk page. Thanks,  Colin°Talk 11:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of people with epilepsy 

message: this taskforce was previously named "the criticism of Islam task force", and has since been renamed to the "Islam and Controversy task force", in spite of editorial disagreement about the deliberate ambiguity facilitated by the latter title. this ambiguity, as predicted, has resulted in dispute over whether the task force is necessary any longer, as it has become an advertisement page for articles where there are content disputes, controversial topics, or even neither of those criteria at all (which still apparently merit the attention of the task force). as such, the task force is no longer has a strictly topical focus, unlike other task forces. the WikiProject currently possesses  for articles requiring attention, for all members of the WikiProject to be able to view without favouring any specific task force, and there is also the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process, as well as this very talk page. making another set of pages, about which the vast majority of the community (let alone this WikiProject) is unaware, to highlight articles requiring intevention to the select individuals involved on this page (or those who may be directed towards this page), understandably presents a large potential for abuse, and this is also a topic of debate on the talk page. all comments on this topic should be directed there, and not here. ITAQALLAH 22:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ItaqAllah is the only editor actively opposing this taskforce as of yet. User Arrow740 proposed the rename of this taskforce here and Sefringle supported it, along with me.  is just a small table. It cannot take the place of the taskforce. This taskforce is open to the public and anyone can join. Its not for some "select individuals" as you claim. There is no "abuse" of any sort possible through the use of a taskforce. Its only aim is to improve articles of a certain theme, i.e. articles which contain controversy related to Islam. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 22:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam/Islam and Controversy task force]] 

message: Practically all of the esoteric Islam articles that I have come across are a mess.  The quotes and constant reference to hadith is OR, because it presents non-scholarly text and provides no explanation.  It's shocking, really, and it's done by Muslims of various sects to promote their sect or an idealized view of Islam and non-Muslims to denigrate Islam.  If I have to read one more article that only quotes the Qu'ran or a hadith as support for some claim about larger Islamic culture, I'll go nuts.  Are there no scholars of Islam?  Are there no books or articles about Islam?  Is there only hadith from the Muslim Students' Association at USC?  Because that's what it seems like.  Get your collective acts together and start acting like scholars instead of fanboys. Elijahmeeks 14:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To belabor the point, the use of 13th and 14th century scholarly interpretations for a modern encyclopedia article is akin to referencing Thomas Aquinas as the definitive explanation of a similar Christian point.  While Aquinas is valuable (I studied the guy too much for me to think otherwise) to ignore the several centuries of later scholarship as well as post-Enlightenment academic work would be a disservice.  I can understand that Muslims may think a position against the inherent validity of hadith or medieval scholarship is insulting, but to allow this kind of reference also allows amateur Orientalists to quote the same period sources in an attempt to misrepresent Islam.  Less is more, I think, and Wikiproject Islam should foster a more rigorous standard of referencing for these articles, especially given the current political climate.  Come on, people, fix these articles. Elijahmeeks 03:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This is not Scripturepedia

message: A question on definitions, please. 
In the 1850s, Richard Francis Burton famously disguised himself as a Muslim and entered Makkah during the Hajj. Richard Francis Burton says: "His time in the Sindh prepared him well for his Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) ... The pilgrimage entitled him to the title of Hajji and to wear a green turban." -- Since Burton was apparently, at least at this time, a kafir rather than a Muslim, to say that he "made the Hajj" and was "entitled to the title of Hajji" strikes me as rather odd. IMHO his "Hajj" was rather a false or imitation one, and he had no valid claim to the title of Hajji. 
Please discuss here or at Talk:Richard Francis Burton. Thanks. -- Writtenonsand 23:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richard Burton, Hajji? 

message: There is currently a discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Halakhic - cap? whether the word "Halakha" (Jewish law) should be capitalized.  Currently most article are internally inconsistent on this point.  This issue also relates to the word "Sharia" (which is also internally inconsistent in most articles).  As both words are transliterated from languages without capitals, and refer to a religious body of law, I think that whatever is decided Wikipedia should be internally consistent.  Please comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Halakhic - cap?.  Jon513 16:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will say it makes no difference, capitalized or not capitalized either one is okay for me. --- ALM 16:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  request for comment 

message: Can some knowledgable person about Sufism take a look at the discussion here. It pertains to the inclusion of non-notable Sufis in the Modern Sufis section of the Sufism Template. Cheers--Shahab 20:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-notable Sufis

message: Please discuss this in a discussion here--Sefringle 03:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Creating a guideline that applies to all religous articles

message: I'm seeking peer review on the recently rewritten Christian Church article and thought maybe somebody monitoring this page might be willing to help with neutrality (i.e. somebody with different biases).
Thanks.
--Mcorazao 20:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unorthodox request: Non-Muslim subject

message: There is a new WikiProject task force proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Inter-religious content that is being proposed to deal specifically with articles whose content relates to several religious traditions. Any editors interested in joining such a group would be more than welcome to indicate their interest there. John Carter 15:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New project proposal 

message: ===Too many traditions===
Jesus said "to follow the traditions of men is to forget the words of God," and there are too many traditions in Islam. Examples include the Haji or trip to Meccah, the strict food observances including fasting, how people have to pray five times a day and other rituals. These make Muslims forget the words of God.
===Too many followers and not enough believers===
Most people become Muslims because their parents are muslims or because their societies force them to be Muslims. This creates what are called "followers," who follow along instead of truly believing what they are taught. People who question and convert into a religion are the true "believers."
You can add the two subsections in under "other criticisms" or debate them here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.238.122 (talk • contribs) 
:As explained by  here, original research or personal opinions cannot be used in a Wikipedia article. → AA (talk • contribs) — 16:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam issues

message: Most people become Muslims because their parents are muslims or because their societies force them to be Muslims. This creates what are called "followers," who follow along instead of truly believing what they are taught. People who question and convert into a religion are the true "believers."
You can add the two subsections in under "other criticisms" or debate them here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.238.122 (talk • contribs) 
:As explained by  here, original research or personal opinions cannot be used in a Wikipedia article. → AA (talk • contribs) — 16:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many followers and not enough believers

message: Cry for help!  I seem to recall having seen a page about the above topic, but I can't remember the title.  I have tried searching for Islamic schools of thought, Muslim ditto, S of T in Islam, etc, to no avail.  Does anyone kwow the article I mean? Thanks BrainyBabe 13:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it's discussed briefly in Fiqh although it needs expansion and some fixing here and there.. ITAQALLAH 17:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Through your suggestion of fiqh I found Madh'hab, which seems to be what I was lookign for. The article isn't that great, but it is the right topic. ThanksBrainyBabe 17:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: article on Islamic schools of thought

message: The Section "The problem of Evil in Islam" in Problem of evil needs attention from someone knowledgeable in this subject. The current entry appears to be a good faith edit describing Islam's attitudes to good and evil rather than addressing the topic of the article. The small amount that I have read about Islam's ideas on predestination and evil make me think that Islamic philosophy has much more to say on this topic.  -- Q Chris 09:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "The problem of Evil" in Islam

message: The WikiProject Islam peer review system has been overhauled. The page is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam/Peer review. The instructions now specify that articles should first be listed at Wikipedia's main peer review page here, and then transcluded into the Islam-specific page. Hopefully this will result in more eyes on the articles. - Merzbow 17:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New peer review system 

message: Would someone who understands the level of taboo care to edit Horsemeat#The taboo? It contains a contradiction. BrainyBabe 07:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Makruh

message: Does anyone know anything about this contingent at Seattle, Washington's Fremont Solstice Parade and Pageant? I'd guess that they are actual sufis, not people just dressing up for a parade. If someone knows more about them, could you ping me on my user talk page, because I'm not active enough on Wikipedia these days to be using my watchlist. Thanks in advance. - Jmabel | Talk 22:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fremont Fair: sufis? 

message: There are currently approximately 225 links to the disambiguation page at Islamic law, but it seems that no one working at WP:DPL has the knowledge required to direct them accurately to either Sharia or Fiqh. Can one or more people from this WikiProject help us out? Dekimasuよ! 13:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguous links 

message: It would be helpful if someone who knows Islam well could look at that article, which has multiple problems and may or may not be a suitable topic for a WP article. If it's not worth saving, could you tag it for deletion. I found it in the list of articles to be wikified, since I work on the wikification project. Thanks. Itsmejudith 20:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Redirected it to Eid al-Ghadeer. Pepsidrinka 20:52, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: thank you. Makes sense, though I note that that article needs wikifying too! Itsmejudith 21:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: not related to the original concern, but i have commented on Talk:Eid al-Ghadeer. i stubified the article because the contents (apart from being generally unencyclopedic) appeared to have been taken from websites asserting copyright. ITAQALLAH 00:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now it's been improved by stubification, maybe there are Shi'a Muslim editors who celebrate this festival and can work up the article without copyright infringement. Perhaps there are sources like news reports about events on this holy day? Itsmejudith 20:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article [[Ghadeer]] 

message: I have noticed some muslims believe that the Gospel of Barnabas is the original gospel, about what percent accept it as true(estimates are ok)? --Java7837 21:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual creation of the task force infrastructure is fairly convoluted and rather time-consuming, but I (or one of the other coordinators) can take care of that for you.  All you need to do at this point is have the interested editors leave a note to that effect in the discussion on the project talk page(Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history); assuming that nobody comes up with a major objection to the name/scope of the task force in the next few days, we'll go ahead and formally create it then. Kirill 23:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please write your idea about this issue:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Islamic military history task force--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 10:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gospel of Barnabas

message: Hi, there are several wikipedians to start the task force. It includes Muslim conquests as well as civil wars. Please describe the procedure for me.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 13:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual creation of the task force infrastructure is fairly convoluted and rather time-consuming, but I (or one of the other coordinators) can take care of that for you.  All you need to do at this point is have the interested editors leave a note to that effect in the discussion on the project talk page(Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history); assuming that nobody comes up with a major objection to the name/scope of the task force in the next few days, we'll go ahead and formally create it then. Kirill 23:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please write your idea about this issue:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Islamic military history task force--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 10:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Islamic/Muslim military history task force 

message: There is already an article Asr, but some more articles on have appeared on this and related subjects such as Salat Asr, Salat of Quran, Salat Timings of Quran and Al-Wusta. Salat Asr consists mainly of Qur'anic verses and statements from Hadith and should be merged into Asr. The rest I'm not sure about. Assistance requested. MP   (talk) 11:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've redirected Salat Asr & Al-Wusta to Asr. Proposed deletion of Salat Timings of Quran and merging of Salat of Quran into Salah. → AA (talk • contribs) — 15:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asr prayer articles 

message: Might want to check out Tay al-Ard, one of the more bizarre articles I've come across! It's 'well-referenced', meaning that I can see the references to books etc., but I can't verify their authenticity/accuracy/verity. Btw AA, thx 4 helping out with the Asr articles. :) MP   (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this for real or what ? 

message: The article Islamic cosmology needs a a major cleanup. It is very confusing in places, has no references and got my blood boiling when it said that "It [Islamic cosmology] holds similarities to the Judeo-Christian belief in which the earth was created in six days." I'll try and work on this article, but assistance is always appreciated. MP   (talk) 20:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic cosmology 

message: I'm thinking of making :Category:Arabic words and phrases a subcategory of :Category:Islam, as there is a lot of overlap and many arabic words and phrases (not very common ones) are infesting :Category:Islam. Any views on this ? MP   (talk) 10:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic words and phrases

message: Vote at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Moses so as too get Moses into a featured article
--Java7837 22:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: vote for Moses to become a featured article vote