Talk:The Pirates of Penzance

message: FYI, Gilbert and Sullivan themselves referred to their works as "comic operas" or "operas," never as "operettas." I have therefore restored that phrase. Marc Shepherd 04:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See "a note on terminology" above and at Talk: Gilbert and Sullivan for more about this.  The more than 500 Gilbert and Sullivan-related Wikipedia pages refer to their works as operas, following the authors' intention and the nomencature in the key sources cited in this article, including Jacobs, Stedman, Bradley and Ainger. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:14, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomenclature: Comic opera 

message: Act I takes place in a small bay on the sea coast in Cornwall, presumably close to Penzance. Act II takes place at the graveyard of a ruined chapel in the grounds of MG Stanley's home, which must also be fairly close to Penzance. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where Does The Story Take Place 

message: A recent editor wrote (his contributions underlined):
:Compared to traditional productions of the opera, Papp's Pirates featured a more swashbuckling Pirate King and Frederic, and a broader, more musical comedy style of humor, emphasizing the antics of the performers over the intrinsic humor of the libretto.
Though perhaps arguably true in one observer's opinion, this comment does not present a neutral point of view and is not verifiable. If you wish to re-introduce the comment, please do so in a manner that preserves NPOV and verifiability. Marc Shepherd 16:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, different productions vary, depending on the director and other factors.   A director of a "traditional" style Pirates production might permit lots of "antics" and liberties by the actors, while a director of a Papp-style production might have a more restrictive idea of the relationship between the book and the actors' liberties.  Ssilvers 18:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Papp's Pirates and NPOV 

message: An explanation for the editor who insert info on a particular production.  Pirates has been produced thousands and thousands of times around the world.  Other than the Papp production, it would be hard to imagine that any one production would be notable enough to add to this article.  One would have to create an adaptation that caught on for a very significant number of new productions, or that was shown on Broadway or the West End, or made into a major film, to really warrant a description here.  Hope this helps.  Ssilvers 05:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. A production needs to be notable (in the Wikipedia sense of the word) before being described in this article. Probably the only amateur production worth mentioning would be the first one ever staged, if that. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto; agree. Marc Shepherd 17:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Not that unusual. In the 1970s I went to an all-boys school which put on a G&S show every two years. All the female roles were played by twelve/thirteen year-old boys whose voice hadn't broken yet. So my first appearance in a G&S show was as one of the Major-general's daughters. Nowadays the school is co-ed so if they're still doing G&S I assume that they now have girls playing the female roles. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Amateur productions

message: Can someone who knows the terminology better fix up my footnote on the policeman's chant? Adam Cuerden 12:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 23a

message: This is the original research by Kevin Wachs on the subject - it MUST be added to the article, I think
:I seriously considered this. I didn't include Wachs's research for the same reason I didn't include my own. Although both are available on websites, both fall into the category of "new research" that doesn't yet have broad acceptance in the G&S community. To present Wachs's view, my view, and the Tillet/Spencer view would take the article far afield from its core subject matter. There is one paragraph addressing all of this (the 3rd paragraph under "background." This, I think, is about as far as the article should go. Marc Shepherd 14:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good.  There is nothing wrong with adding the "External link" to each article, however, for anyone who wishes to do further reading.  Instead of saying "Kevin Wachs article", however, perhaps it should say "2005 article from GASBAG entitled ...."? -- Ssilvers 18:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Important Omission

message: The article now states: "American companies quickly mounted unauthorized "pirated" productions..." as if the word piracy was already in use for copyright infringement and in 1880.
* When did the word gain this secondary meaning?
* Did The Pirates of Penzance have any effect in the adoption of this meaning?
-- Petri Krohn 18:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The OED dates the sense "A person or company who reproduces or uses the work of another (as a book, recording, computer program, etc.) without authority and esp. in contravention of patent or copyright; a plagiarist. Also: a thing reproduced or used in this way." from 1603. OK, it doesn't specifically mention a stage-work, but I think it would include it. --ColinFine (talk) 22:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Our own article on Thomas Arne quotes him asking people not to "give any Encouragement to pirated copies, written or printed", in 1741 or thereabouts, and he is definitely talking about his own operas, songs and other works. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the phrase "copyright piracy" 

message: The play is set in Queen Victoria's time, so if Frederic lives to his eighties, his lifespan will include 1900 which was not a leap year, so he won't have a birthday for the eight years between 1896 and 1904. Therefore he won't have his 21st birthday until he is 88 years old. Jess Cully 23:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe so, although it is not clear whether Gilbert forgot that, and it is likewise not clear in precisely what year the action of the show is meant to be set.  In any case, it is a very technical point and detracts from a first-time reader's understanding of the plot, so I fudged the issue by writing "in his eighties".  Let a reader understand the plot before becoming embroiled in the controversy over exactly when Fredric was born and whether Gilbert meant for him to be 84 or 88 on his 21st birthday.  In fact, the important issue for the plot summary is that he is not yet 21 and must rejoin the pirates.  The fact that the year when he will turn 21 is named was just to get a laugh.  -- Ssilvers 01:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frederic's age when he reaches his 21st birthday 

message: An anonymous editor added a section called "Errors in the script".  I have modified it somewhat to take out some inaccuracies and called it "Anomalies" in the script.  Is it worth keeping?  I am not sure that it adds to the reader's understanding of the opera.  -- Ssilvers 05:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is silly. We could add a similar section to The Mikado explaining that in fact there was no Chancellor of the Exchequer in 19th-century Japan; or one to H.M.S. Pinafore explaining that Ralph Rackstraw is clearly old enough to be Josephine's father; none of this would be adding value to the encyclopedia. --Quuxplusone 04:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Good points. I do think we could do a bit more with textual analysis of the operas, but this isn't how. Adam Cuerden talk 09:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Errors in the Script"

message: Two anomalies arguably are found in the play's script. First, while Frederic's birthday, February 29th, is being celebrated in the opening scene (presumably it is March 1, since Frederic is 21, so it must not be a leap year).  In the next scene, however, Major-General Stanley's daughters sing of the "summer rain" (a line carried over from Thespis, for which the song "Climbing over Rocky Mountain" was originally written) and wish to dip their feet in the water at the Cornish seaside, jumping to descriptions and activities from a different season.  They alsomention that they are waiting for their papa and the servants to arrive with the luncheon.  However, their father, according to the stage directions, arrives alone.
There is another one. During the "often/orphan" argument, the Pirate King says he "only repeated (the word 'often') once. Later, he states that he only said it once, when repeating it once would mean he said it twice (which he actually did).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.41.161 (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Anomalies in the script

message: For the G&S articles, we use UK spellings.  According to the Oxford English Dictionary, however, Fulfil and Fulfill are both correct in the UK.  In the US, only Fulfill is correct.  In such situations, WP guidelines suggest that it is better to choose a spelling that is correct in both countries.  I made the opposite argument in the musical theatre article, which uses US spellings, saying that we should use the spelling "theatre" instead of "theater", since the former spelling is acceptable in both countries.  -- Ssilvers 04:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very sensible! -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gracious me! The spelling with three ls is new to me but I must concur. (As with the ubiquitous -ize endings) Tim riley 23:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry about any "-ize's": "-ise" is correct for British subject articles.  :-)    Best regards, -- Ssilvers 06:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fulfill

message: It seems to me that since we know that the Happy Event occurs in 1940... 
:If 1900 is counted as a leap year then Frederick's 21st Birthday occurs after 21 four year periods, (when he is 84 (= 21 * 4) years old)
:If 1900 is not counted as a leap year then Frederick's 21st Birthday occurs after 20 four year periods and 1 eight year period when he is 88 (= 20 * 4 + 8) years old
... or have I got it wrong ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You've got it right. Gilbert clearly assumed that 1900 would be a leap year. Isaac Asimov wrote a short story about that little mistake (sorry...don't have the reference). Marc Shepherd 14:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't read Asimov's story but it occurs to me that if Frederick was a member of an Orthodox church using the Julian calendar system (perhaps he came from a Russian or Balkan family which had settled in England), there is no need to assume that either Gilbert or Frederick made a mistake in their assumption about the leap year status of 1900. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's true, but it starts to get a little far-fetched. Over the years, people have proposed many elaborate explanations to get around the plot inconsistencies that abound in Gilbert's librettos. I think the reality is that he just didn't care very much about it. Marc Shepherd 15:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The sea off Penzance is warmer than, say, the North Sea but I must admit that my experience is that I wouldn't want to swim in either sea at any time of year unless I absolutely had to. Wading on the other hand would be okay. The season actually doesn't change the sea temperature that much, just the air temperature, and while that would be a concern for swimming, it really isn't for wading. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Leap Years

message: :Image:Pirates-of-penzance-DVDcover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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replies: text: I added separate fair use rationales for each article.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Pirates-of-penzance-DVDcover.jpg

message: Could someone familiar with The Pirates of Penzance help with the wording about Frederic in the February 29 article? Kingturtle (talk) 13:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Happy 37th, Fred!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  February 29 

message: Perhaps it was not considered sufficiently relevant to be placed in the cultural references, but Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon was named in parody of Penzance.
64.56.226.217 (talk) 03:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't look like the game has anything at all to do with The Pirates of Penzance, does it?  The similarity in the name seems purely coincidental, no?  Even if it's some kind of pun on the name of the show, it doesn't seem to be a significant reference, unless the game itself or some part of it parodies Pirates.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  SpaceQuest Reference 

message: An editor modified the article to add, early in the synopsis, the date, February 29, as the date of the opening scene.  This is wrong for two reasons.  First, it is jumping the gun, because the joke about leap year doesn't occur until Act II, and it upsets the narrative flow of the synopsis to start off with it.  Second, Frederic is 21 (or 5 and 1/4), so this is not a leap year, and there is no 29 February this year.  It must be either March 1 or Feb. 28.  Also, as to exactly what year it is, scholars cannot agree, because it is not known whether Gilbert took into account the fact that there was no leap day in 1900 due to the calendar correction.  That issue has been discussed here before.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Synopsis; Birthday

message: I have removed a link from this and other G&S pages for reasons given at Talk:The_Mikado#External_link - Tim riley (talk) 11:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the link can't be used here.  See also WP:EL.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link 

message: Should the episode  Disaster be included in Cultural Impact? Dr. Crusher and Lt. Cmdr. La Forge are in a cargo bay discussing La Forge's possible participation in a ship production of The Pirates of Penzance and, at Dr. Crusher request, Lt. Cmdr LaForge sings the opening of I am the Very Model of A Modern Major General.
Profharoldhill (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you cite to a WP:Reliable source that shows that this takes place during this episode?  I see that the Wikipedia article mentions it, but there is no cite, and startrek.com does not mention it.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Disaster" 

message: The manual to the original 1985 Paradox (database) was prefaced by the lines from The Pirates:
 A paradox, a paradox,
 A most ingenious paradox!
 We’ve quips and quibbles heard in flocks,
 But none to beat this paradox!
This is the same Ansa Software manual that featured a double redirect in its index:
 Dead parrots, see Parrots, Dead
 Parrots, dead, see Dead Parrots
Ah, unfortunately, the manual was recycled at about the same time when we switched from DOS to Win 3.11, so don't ask me for page numbers. Once a great product, it is now remembered only by mossbacks like yours truly.  -- East of Borschov 18:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is fun to know but problably not of encyclopedic interest if the 1985 manual is no longer widely available.  See WP:Trivia.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Another "in popular culture" tip

message: I was delighted to find a fascinating review of the first performance of The Pirates Of Penzance. It was published in the New York Tribune on January 1st. 1880 and a real gem! Visit the article here: http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1880-01-01/ed-1/seq-5/ MZionC (talk) 12:42, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I added this in the article.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New York Tribune Review 

message: I can't argue with the statement about the exchange between Mabel and the police. But the police response is really a form of Gregorian chant, well pre-dating Anglican, which might not make any sense if used directly in this article. I'm sure the author and Anglicans were well-aware of this connection. Student7 (talk) 02:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Anglican church service

message: The current first link, "The Pirates of Penzance at The Gilbert & Sullivan Archive", is 404.  Consider https://www.gsarchive.net/pirates/html/index.html - 94.30.84.71 (talk) 12:30, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks - I changed the link as you suggest.  The G&S Archive, unfortunately, renamed many of its links recently, and so they will need to be updated throughout Wikipedia.  Gah!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:46, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: That's a nice little interview with Sir Arthur that you just linked to, ssilvers. Good find, I enjoyed reading it. Thanks! -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:16, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  You can see lots of great links to interviews of G or S on the Archive now: Sullivan and Gilbert. Enjoy!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Nice link

message: I have reverted the changes to this section. We must follow the published sources.  See the vocal score here. The role of Ruth was created by Alice Barnett, who also created two other Gilbert and Sullivan contralto roles, Lady Jane in Patience and the Fairy Queen in Iolanthe.  See also this.  For more information, please see WP:OR and WP:V. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:30, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Vocal parts

message: Congratulations on appearing on Wikipedia's main page as a "Did you know..." listing.  I've been involved in the DYK process, (never successfully, I might add!) and so I know the time it takes and the coordination required between between editors...let's just say it isn't the easiest thing to accomplish.  You deserve recognition, appreciation and applause.  Thank you very much to all the contributing editors who made this listing possible.:The Very Best of Regards,  Bfpage |leave a message  11:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Congratulations!

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on The Pirates of Penzance. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090930222738/http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/html/stage_play.html to http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/html/stage_play.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120626161615/http://gsfestivals.org/shop/professional-shows to http://www.gsfestivals.org/shop/professional-shows
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070619222651/http://www.chimesmusicaltheatre.co.uk/Thespis.pdf to http://www.chimesmusicaltheatre.co.uk/Thespis.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090524174741/http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/theatre_performance/objects_theatre_performance/doyly_carte/index.html to http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/theatre_performance/objects_theatre_performance/doyly_carte/index.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article's account of the first performance, to secure British Copyright, with the cast reading their lines from scripts and without proper costumes, sounds a suitable candidate for WP:DYK. Has it already featured as such? If not, perhaps one of the regular editors of the article might want to put it forward. (I only came here as the article was used as an example on a presentational issue.) ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 09:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The Paignton performance would, I agree, make a good hook for DYK, but unless the DYK rules have changed a lot since last time I looked, I don't think the article is eligible -- it needs to be either a new article or a greatly expanded GA, doesn't it? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd forgotten that, but it is rather a pity. And this snippet touches on the interests of this editor who is often puzzled by copyright law. Cheers, ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Copyright law today is quite different from the 19th century.  For example, there is a now an international copyright treaty that protects the work of creators throughout the world, which is partly thanks to G&S's efforts over the years. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suitable for Did you know?