Talk:Ferrous metallurgy

message: This article is the result of merging sections that appeared in articles on iron and steel.  It incorporates adverse comments made in respect of the prehistoric sections and the referecnes that they cited.  However, in doing this, I have written about matters beyond my expertise, which relates (at most) to the medieval period onwards.  It is possible (for example) that the sources cited do not support statements apparently reliant on them.  This part of the article urgently requires the attention of some one who does know the sources.  
The following query was a comment in the discussion page of iron, and relates to the the early paragraphs of the 'Bloomery Iron in the Middle East' section.  Peterkingiron 00:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source

message: Second paragraph, end of paragraph: I do not think it could be properly said that any particular place was where iron was "invented".
Fourth paragraph, also end of paragraph: Abram and Lot came from Ur of the Chaldeans, not to. Also, can it be said with any certainty that there were two different Urs, or which one was which? Darentig 16:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct about 'from'.  However the interpretation of Ur of the Chaldeans is essentially an issue of Biblical interpreation and should not be relevant to this article.  Peterkingiron 16:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Query

message: Some one has added a series of reference to Europe from Needham.  I am likely to remove or amend these shortly.  Needham's work was primarily on China, not Europe, and it is now 40 years old.  It thus does not take account of more recent discoveries.  We know rather more of ancient metallurgy than we did in his time!  Peterkingiron 16:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needham 

message: Some one (unlogged-in) added the view that there was no difference in principle between a bloomery and a blast furance (except size), togeterh with unhelful comparisons with modern steelmaking.  I believe that the contributir was trying to be helpful, but failed to be.  I have accordingly reverted from these: the additions are too simplistic.  If they should be added at all, the correct place is probably in the article bloomery.  Peterkingiron 21:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bloomery and blast furnace 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :History of ferrous metallurgy's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Hill2":
From Trip hammer: Donald Routledge Hill, "Mechanical Engineering in the Medieval Near East", Scientific American, May 1991, pp. 64-69 (cf. Donald Routledge Hill, Mechanical Engineering)
From Watermill: Donald Routledge Hill, "Mechanical Engineering in the Medieval Near East", Scientific American, May 1991, p. 64-69. (cf. Donald Routledge Hill, Mechanical Engineering)
From Muslim Agricultural Revolution: Donald Routledge Hill, "Mechanical Engineering in the Medieval Near East", Scientific American, May 1991, pp. 64–9. (cf. Donald Routledge Hill, Mechanical Engineering)
From Al-Jazari: Donald Routledge Hill, "Mechanical Engineering in the Medieval Near East", Scientific American, May 1991, pp. 64-9 (cf. Donald Routledge Hill, Mechanical Engineering)
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 03:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:History of ferrous metallurgy]] 

message: Whoever added material on milling in the medieval Islamic world has been trying to exaggerate their contribution:
#A lot of material has been added about milling in general, bit this has little or nothing to do with metallurgy, let alone ferrous metallurgy.  
#Some of the material apparently on metallurgy was cited from Lucas, 'Industrial Milling', Technoloigy and Culture 46 (2005), 10 or his Wind Water Work, p.65.  Both cover much the same material and refer to a variety of industries, but not to iron or steel.  Accordingly the material is cited from a false reference.  This leads me to think that the statements are wrong.  
#They referred to finery forge, but that was involved in processes for converting pig iron to wrought iron: the article did not allege the production of pig iron, so that at best this is a misuse of the term; at worst it is WP:OR.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: During the Islamic Golden Age and Muslim Agricultural Revolution, Muslim chemists, inventors and engineers were making significant advances in metallurgy. Muslim engineers invented the first stamp mills. By the 11th century, every province throughout the Islamic world had these industrial mills in operation, from al-Andalus and North Africa to the Middle East and Central Asia.Adam Robert Lucas (2005), "Industrial Milling in the Ancient and Medieval Worlds: A Survey of the Evidence for an Industrial Revolution in Medieval Europe", Technology and Culture 46 (1), p. 1-30 [10]. The first geared gristmillsDonald Routledge Hill (1996), "Engineering", p. 781, in  were invented by Muslim engineers for many industrial uses, such as crushing metallic ores before extraction. In order to adapt water wheels for gristmilling purposes, cams were used for raising and releasing trip hammers to fall on a material.Donald Routledge Hill, "Mechanical Engineering in the Medieval Near East", Scientific American, May 1991, p. 64-69. (cf. Donald Routledge Hill, Mechanical Engineering)
This section is not supported by the sources cited.J8079s (talk) 20:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I feared as much, but did not delete it when I pruned the section in March, because it was at least faintly related to iron, whereas what I deleted was about Islamic technology generally.  Some of it may be Muslim acheivements, but other portions may be derived from the Roman world but lost to the West.  Peterkingiron (talk) 21:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic world 

message: My writing skills are not very good. But I have a couple of good sources to recomend. The microstructure of steels and cast irons  Madeleine Durand-Charre Springer, 2004 , 9783540209638. Its got a great history section.
Iron and steel in ancient times Vagn Fabritius Buchwald Published by Kgl. Danske Videnskabernes Selskab, 2005 , 9788773043080. I've been looking at google books,this ones got good stuff on northern Europe.J8079s (talk) 20:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I know neither work, but microstructures does not sound like a specialist book on history.  I suspect that any historical sections will be derived from better sources.  Peterkingiron (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not that bad see it at google books http://books.google.com/books?id=n9pRE-4W8XIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=related:ISBN8773043087#PPR9,M1  if youve got time J8079s (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Having looked, I still do not think it is exactly a history book.  It is dealing with technical issues on the metallography of iron and steel artefacts.  I think that most of the historical and archaeological information is derivative.  Buchwald looks a valuable book, but deals with the period that I am most intersted in only in the epilogue.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  sources 

message: I was wondering if there is any information regarding the methods used by the ancients, and even those in the middle ages, to identify a particular rock as being iron ore. I didn't see anything in this article about it. What methods were used? Do historians even know what they did to identify a certain rock as being iron ore? Thanks. The Seeker 4 Talk 15:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats a good question, but I've no good answer. All I can tell is that iron made tools from 2000BC were found in what was once Mesopotamia and that iron carburizing was known process in the Middle East at about 1200BC (this could be a byproduct discovery of iron production process). I guess that they just identified minerals rich with iron ore by sight. But I will look for additional information on the web to answer this.--Gilisa (talk) 17:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

text: *I found this book. Seems like it should include an answer.--Gilisa (talk) 17:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

text: The simplest way would be "look for rust".  Seriously, iron ore readily oxidizes to form iron oxide (rust), so there will be the characteristic reddish color of rust wherever you have iron ore. StuRat (talk) 02:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds reasonable. I was curious but noticed the relevant articles lacking in any indication of how iron ore was identified before modern geological techniques. Thanks. The Seeker 4 Talk 15:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

text: De Re Metallica written by Georgius Agricola in 1556 has a lot of information on the identification of ore sources prior to modern prospecting techniques such as the us of vegetation associated with certain ores, soil types, color, and smell amongst others. While the book may not refer to "ancient" techniques per say, I highly recommend reading it for information on pre-industrial ore prospecting methods. --Lboscher (talk) 23:29, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identifying iron ore in antiquity 

message: Clarification: The article claims "smelting of iron in bloomeries began in the 12th century BC," yet mention is made of a dagger of smelted iron dating to 2500 BC. It's implied that the dagger is of smelted, non-meteoritic, iron, and what I've read elsewhere seems to bear this out... does anyone have any idea how this dagger was produced? 75.145.136.37 (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of iron smelting 

message: The following part of a quote fromWill Durant, The Story of Civilization I: Our Oriental Heritage was removed, since it does not pertain specifically to iron metallurgy or repeats what had already been said.  Perhaps it can be used in some otehr article.  All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 07:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material for other articles 

message: In quran Surah (chapter) 57 name is Hadid means Iron. Verse 25 has very interesting for this topic. English traslation is 
"We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance(of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will)." 
if you see arabic text "anzalna" means "we sent down. Human doesnt know this truth 1400 years ago. and about this verse because of that point there was many questions from unbelievers past time. But now it is very Clear.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.99.188.180 (talk) 13:14, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quranic Wisdom 

message: Lets have a holistic view of iron working in Africa as a whole.I think we should merge Iron working in North eastern Africa with the rest of Africa instead of taking it to Near East.We can for instance have it shown by regions e.g East Africa,West Africa,South Africa and North Africa.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwenemucii (talk • contribs) 08:54, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Ferrous metallurgy in Africa 

message: Why are is there no mention of Japanese metallurgy in this article when their tradecraft was extremely advanced and their understanding of the varying carbon contents of steel was virtually unsurpassed?  The production of a traditional Katana blade, for example uses multiple types of steel for the core, sides, and cutting edge to take maximum advantage of high and low carbon steel.  The edge was high carbon steel, hard but brittle, and capable of taking and retaining a razors edge.  The core was a softer but more durable low carbon steel to stand up to the stress of tremendous impacts.  The sides and back fell somewhere in between.  All three types were forge welded together to create a weapon of unsurpassed complexity and deadliness.  The technology was by no means limited to weapons of war either.  Items such as woodworking tools were frequently laminated from hard and soft steel to create chisels and handplane blades that were far ahead of their contemporaries in the west.  I know most of these developments took place at a later date - 900AD to 1500AD and that there is a Japanese Sword section already, I just thought it might be worth a mention, or at least a cross link to another article.
AutumnWoods (talk) 04:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the Japanese? 

message: There is no mention of case-hardened steel, an early method.  Also the article could benefit from the separation of iron production - wrought and cast - from that of steel.  Incidentally, Anglo-Saxon knives have been excavated with surgical-steel like properties. Urselius (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is intneded to be mainly about the production of iron and steel, rather than about the fabrication of artefacts, which is probably best left for a more specific article.  We have a terminological issue in splitting out steel.  Why should we have bar iron (0%C) and pig iron (4-5%C) in one article and steel (0.5-2%C) in another: it does not make sense.  I created this article some years ago, trying to sort out a muddle that previously existed, to provide a general overview of the subject, with sub-articles on particualrly topics.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Case-hardened steel 

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