Talk:Turkish crescent

message: I'm working on this article, which has quite a few conflicting and hard-to-pin-down sources. Some material for improving the article appears below. --Lou Sander (talk) 17:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Improving the article

message: A lot of these are dead now. I'll leave them in for reference. Lou Sander (talk) 15:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some photos for a gallery 

message: *Connaught Rangers book
*You can get a lot by Googling 'Connaught Rangers salamanca jingling johnny'
*Possibly very important: French Imperial Eagle (Article says that only two were captured. Did the Connaughts' Johnny have one?)
*Military academies in Russia See: 2.20 Field Marshal Alexander Suvorov Moscow Military Music School
*Corps_of_Drums#Corps_of_Drums_in_Germany
*cevgen seems to be the Turkish name for the ones used in Mehter bands. Can't find much in English about this word. Some of the stuff says it carries concealed bells. Maybe those are the apparently bell-less ones in the Mehter pictures. Why aren't these in the lists of Turkish musical instruments? The Turkish Museum site has something about them as an instrument. Doesn't look anything like Johnny.
*chaghana needs more research. Seems to be a legitimate term for the original Turkish one. Google 'chaghana turkish' to find lots of scholarly references, incl. Powley thesis. 
*sulde is another key word, I think having to do with Mongols
*schellenbaum is an important German word and concept
*teufelsgeige or -er, etc. is a German word and concept. Maybe it means devil's violin or something similar. There's a lot of it as a folk instrument on YouTube
*Janischarenmusik = Janissary music
*Großer Zapfenstreich is the German civilian(?) gathering
*The one in Grove is in the Royal Military School of Music, Kneller Hall
*Bell lyre and glockenspiel have some similarity to Johnny  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Birfday (talk • contribs) 03:00, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Some references

message: *Turkish Museum - Mehter Headquarters
*Good article from Turkey on Turkish military music
*Sousa's "Nobles of the Mystic Shrine" is said to use one.
*Doug Yeo, of the BSO, at yeodoug.com, talked of one at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. There was a photo. Later it was removed from the display.
*Chaghana and Chapeau Chinois. Sounds like they know what they are talking about. Find out how they know. 
*The very best source is the Powley thesis at Rochester. HERE.
*Powley Magic Flute article.
*French wikipedia article
* French site than mentions pavillon in a trophy way
*Ditto
*From symbol: Swiss psychoanalyst Carl Jung, who studied archetypes, proposed an alternative definition of symbol, distinguishing it from the term sign. In Jung's view, a sign stands for something known, as a word stands for its referent. He contrasted this with symbol, which he used to stand for something that is unknown and that cannot be made clear or precise. An example of a symbol in this sense is Christ as a symbol of the archetype called self  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.75.31.57 (talk) 22:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: New section of references 1

message: Did Beethoven really include the jingling johnny in his 9th Symphony? Citing a review of an episode of QI in The Guardian is not very convincing. The published score of the symphony has a triangle (a possible western substitute for the johnny). I'm not convinced. Eroica (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I, too, am a bit ambivalent about the reliability of QI as a source; the QI Elves have quite a research team, and they can't afford to get too much wrong. On the other hand, my Eulenburg score shows triangolo, piatti and Gran Cassa (and timpani) for the Alla Marcia section – no Turkish crescent, Schellenbaum, or such. On the third hand, that score was definitely not used in the 1800s, and I find it quite possible that in an era when the Turkish music style was very popular, performances of that section of the Ninth may well have included a Schellenbaum; unfortunately, they didn't Twitter about it or posted pictures to Facebook. This article also mentions Haydn's "Military" symphony; that article doesn't mention a Schellenbaum either, but again, I think it's very possible. I wonder whether James Blades in Grove would provide some help here. It would be nice if the QI Elves revealed their sources. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've honored your doubts by adding "is said to have" in the Beethoven item. Lou Sander (talk) 15:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Beethoven

message: Where did Jingling Johnny come from? Is it just a funny naughty rhyme or is johnny derived from something else?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 (talk) 23:20, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: One was used in the Essex Youth Orchestra performances of "Cappricio Espagnol" is the mid 1970s, and was called a Jingling Johnny.  We thought nothing double-entendre-ish of the name.  Ah - innocent days!  Springnuts (talk) 13:50, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: I restored the reference to the crank, which is clearly presented in the reference originally cited (which I am looking at right now). Someone removed it because it isn't in the (subscription only) online reference they supplied. They also replaced the original, properly cited, reference with a different version of the same publication. 
Please do not remove properly cited material just because it isn't in a different reference to which you have access. Lou Sander (talk) 14:52, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: *Memorandum for record: The aforementioned edit that User:Lou Sander refers to was done by User: Michael Bednarek 12:44 1 June 2014. See: History. Tjlynnjr (talk) 01:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crank 

message: See above section "Some references", lines 6, 7, & 20 which refer to the Prowley Thesis.
Note that this paper was written in 1968, so there is no present-day info on Mehter. Also, the paper contains many mis-spellings, perhaps the author was not familiar with the German and Turkish languages. It is nevertheless a handsome work. Eastman School of Music at UR does not admit dumb-asses, unless they have heaps of money and "endow a chair" or whatever it is called.
*See Prowley Thesis Part 1 of 2, pp 19, 20, 25, 52, 53, 58, & 59 for info on tuğ and Tc.
*See Prowley Thesis Part 2 of 2, pp 79, 80 & 81.
*See Appendix, note what it contains and does not contain. NB: Chaghana (sic); is an Anglicization of the Persian/Farsi word (in Turkish phonetics) for çağana or çağanak; known in Turkish as çevgen or çevgân. Recall that Atatürk purged the Turkish language of Arabic and Farsi terms (for the most part) as one of his reforms.
*Here. Retrieved: 2 August 2014.
 
The Prowley Thesis supports my views. Namely, the Tc is a standard, not a musical instrument in the Mehter band. I do acknowledge others may use it for various purposes and have given it many names. Hücum Tuğ is difficult to pronounce for the non-Turkish speaking individual. The Tc was present at the Sultan (s) or Padişah (s) tent on the battlefield regardless whether the Mehteran were deployed or not.
NB: I have never read the Prowley Thesis until today, so I have not used it as a reference until now. Her Şey Vatan İçin Tjlynnjr (talk) 23:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: The Prowley Thesis

message: The Royal Swedish Life Guard musicians use a Turkish Crescent which is called "Mohammedsfana". It was established in
Sweden by King Charles XII in the early 1700's. Here is an image of one:   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.190.9 (talk) 19:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Royal Swedish Life Guard usage 

message: The "Jingling Johnny" is in the Smurf Band. Google: Smurf Band images. 
In Smurf episode The Three Smurfketeers (Season 2, No.7 in season and No. 33 in series) which originally aired October 2, 1982, the Smurf Band is playing at the beginning of the epiosde with "Jingling Johnny". Çok Smurfalim Tjlynnjr (talk) 04:08, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smurfling Johnny 

message: This caption was previously attached to an image on this page, however the youtube video is no longer available.
 
One can see it as an honored object in most videos of Legion music, such as this one.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 7thsanctum (talk • contribs) 15:13, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed dead youtube link