Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Richard Wagner/Archive 1

message: Right, I've started making some suggestions on articles needed. Let's make them think that all two of us have grand plans. ;-) --Peter cohen 07:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To do List 

message: Congratulations on starting this. I'm sure you will get a lot of members. I have put an announcement on the Opera Project. I am hoping that this project will use the styles, categories etc of the parent project while developing them and generally aiming for a much higher standard of article than is possible with opera in general. -- Kleinzach 01:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! My objective frankly has always been to ensure that Parsifal and Tristan und Isolde end up as featured articles. To a lesser extent I'd also like to see this for Richard Wagner, Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg and Der Ring des Nibelungen. While I think that the articles on Wagner himself, and Parsifal are getting there, I still believe there's a lot to be done for the rest of the mature operas and will be putting most of my efforts into this. I do think it will be important to adopt a unified style for the articles on the operas (removing trivia, etc.) so that they look as good as they can.--Dogbertd 13:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Congratulations

message: Proposing a format for our unified style for discussion here sounds like a good preliminary task then. We're now reaching the sort of numbers where a sensible discussion can be held. Who wants to produce it? Dogbertd are you willing to do so, having got Parsifal to GA status?--Peter cohen 13:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the format proposed on WP:WPO#Article_templates is a good place to start, since this covers very fully all of the elements of opera as a staged artwork. For my part, however I think an encyclopedia article should also include sections on the inspiration and subsequent composition process. Fortunately we have a lot of information on these for pretty well all of Wagner's music-dramas. I should also add that, as this is a daughter project of the WP:WPO project it's important that we try to use a style that can be follwed for all operas in Wikipedia, and that we don't lose sight of the ultimate objective for WP:WPO, which is to improve all the operas in WP.--Dogbertd 14:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at that template, neither of the opera articles I have created conform fully to it. The background section in The Silver Tassie corresponds to some of what you are suggesting. And I think with the possibility of discussion being quite extended for some operas by RW, this can't all go in the introduction section, but certainly belongs before the performance history. The music and libretto section in Blond Eckbert probably corresponds to the analysis part of the recommended "context and analysis" section, but I think in some cases can be separted. Unlike with Wagner, I feel justified in merging mention of the one recording of each opera with the performance history. So maybe we need to have a discussion over in WP:WPO on different levels of heading appropriate to different works. --Peter cohen 15:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've always had a relaxed attitude to article structure/sections at WP:WPO. The format at WP:WPO#Article_templates is more for stubs than developed articles. We have encouraged contributors to work on the different sections as listed in order to get viable articles started. In the case of the long Wagner articles it will be appropriate to create additional sections, both to break up the text and make it more readable, as well as to clarify the structure of the article. So I'd recommend going ahead with making the articles as good as possible and not worrying about uniformity, which in any case is not always a good thing. -- Kleinzach 05:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unified style

message: One resource which may be useful is The Record of Singing which lists Wagner singers of the 'Caruso to Callas' era, this shows which Wagner singers have been covered and which haven't (e.g. Margarete Matzenauer etc). If you think it's a good idea we could put a subsection of them up on the project page in an 'articles wanted' section. -- Kleinzach 02:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have started a subpage List of article-worthy Wagner singers. It's very much a work in progress. I've started with the period 1900-1950. It needs checking. Some of the names should probably come out and others added. -- Kleinzach 11:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lists of Wagner singers

message: Wagnerites and Anti-Wagnerites proposed for the chop 
Rather than just rushing in and opposing the deletion, I think there needs to be some thought on how we will use the categories. There seem to be a fair number of Wagnerians (i.e. performers of RW's works) in the Wagnerites categories and I think we may need to think about a distinction between those tow concepts. The likes of Ridderbusch and Melchior were largely known as Wagner performers. Bruckner was influenced by him. Ludwig II sank substantial money into supporting him. All of these should of mentions of Wagner in their articles and should be linked to a group of similar people. But should they all be in the same category?--Peter cohen 23:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any point in listing performers and other poeple who have not specificially written in support of Wagner's ideas as Wagnerites. That category is much inflated. Frankly I am inclined to vote in favour of deletion but would be interested in other opinions before I do. -- Kleinzach 23:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  On consideration I'm coming round to the view that Wagnerism was really a historical movement, and that the importance of aligning yourself with or against Wagner was restricted to the 19th century. In the 20th Century there have been larger beasts to fight for/against, and in any case Wagner has become less important as a composer (because of the reduced importance of "classical music" in the west) and more important as a symbol of German nationalism, so that the labels "pro"- or "contra"- Wagner now no longer refers to ones feelings about his operas or his music, but how one reacts to the portrayal of him as a symbol of Germany. I guess this is rather a longwinded way of saying that I would not oppose deletion.--Dogbertd 08:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories mentioned on project page nominated for deletion 

message: I note that the project page makes mention of this project potentially engaging in assessments. Unfortunately, I see no evidence of a specific template which could be used as the project banner which could be used with which to do assessments. I have rather a fair amount of experience in creating such templates, so, if you want any help creating one, please leave me a message on my talk page with some indication as to what you want in the banner, and I can create at least the basic structure which you could later modify. Thank you. John Carter 15:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks but we also have some experience with project banners. Thanks for the offer though. -- Kleinzach 01:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Nice work! I think this is great. Would it be an idea to make the bolded project talk page into a Wikilink?--Dogbertd 07:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is! Because this is the Talk page it appears in bold! Please note that I have now simplified the text to make it a little less wordy.-- Kleinzach 10:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now put a link to the banner on the project page. -- Kleinzach 00:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project banner 

message: The Gilbert and Sullivan Project put their banner on G&S category talk pages. Will we do the same? This would mean that the banner would go on the three special Wagner categories, but not on any page that didn't belong to a Wagner category. Is that reasonable? -- Kleinzach 10:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now put the banner on all Wagner category talk pages. -- Kleinzach 02:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of the project banner

message: Didn't know this project existed - I've just made an attempt to extend, correct and copyedit Tannhäuser (opera) - especially the first section of the article - . --Smerus 19:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You will be most welcome if you like to join and take part in developing it. -- Kleinzach 00:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Greetings! Excellent work on Tannhäuser. I'll add some verification ASAP.--Dogbertd 09:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tannhäuser

message: I think we're getting there with Tristan und Isolde. Before I go for external peer review, I'd like to invite comments from this august body of experts. A couple of things jump out immediately, and which I'll try to fix:
* the synopsis has no wikilinks
* still need more verification in some of the sections (Reactions to.. and the Recordings sections, in particular)
* I mean to expand on the bibloigraphy section with some comment on the reason for inclusion of some of these works.
Any other comments for improvement would be gratefully received. I'd like to see T&I become the first opera FA.--Dogbertd 10:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Porgy and Bess beat you to it. Perhaps the first incontrovertible opera FA. --Alexs letterbox 12:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll look it over. Although I don't really have any substantial Wagner books to hand, I can at least do some copy-editing. From what I've seen of the FA process, be prepared to be disappointed. It's unlikely they'll address any of the actual content, but you'll get lots of minor linguistic quibbling and requests for several thousand citations. In other words, last time I looked, there were way too many Beckmessers there. But maybe I'm being overly pessimistic. --Folantin 08:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well we can only try. I just thought some input before going for full FA review might be of help. I have a rather large Wagner library: if you think there's anything that needs referencing, let me know and I might be able to find something.--Dogbertd 15:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks really good. I've just done a quick copy-edit. Worth mentioning Wagner's self-quotation in Die Meistersinger (Mein Kind,von Tristan und Isolde kenn' ich ein traurig Stück) or describing T&I's relation to his later operas?  Thomas Mann's Tristan? --Folantin 13:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I suggest checking the criteria for good and featured articles and look at some recent candidate assessments. I think the article will need hugely more citations even on quite basic matters of fact which we as Wagnerians all know to be true (Wagner writing the libretto, von Bulow conducting the premiere etc.) to pass. It may also be useful to dig out some more musical illustrations e.g. of the Act 2 non-resolution and Act 3 resolution of the Liebestod music. I think those would count as legitimate uses of musical illustrations within the copyright policy.--Peter cohen 18:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, they certainly like excessive referencing. --Folantin 19:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh another issue with referencing which I've run into with Troilus is that they want page numbers. --Peter cohen 16:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well Porgy and Bess which was a FA has 21 references, and T&I already has close to this, and I mean to add a few more when I get a mo. So I'm not sure what "excessive" referencing is: I would have thought "sufficient" is what we should aspire to.  I would also point out that most of our references do have page numbers.--Dogbertd 08:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer Review of Tristan und Isolde

message: I've added us to Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory/Culture under opera. --Peter cohen 18:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Previously missing from the big list of projects 

message: Several sites including [] show a picture of the last scene of Die Feen with Arindal having just freed Ada with his lyre. Has anyone got a source with a date for this picture? From the style, it looks as if it ought to be out of copyright, but it would be good if someone could find out for certain, so I can include it in the article without fear of deletion.--Peter cohen 21:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date for picture of Die Feen? 

message: Kleinzach has been pondering the question of article assessment, and has suggested to me that I might like to:
* devise a points system for articles falling within the scope of the Opera Project, based on some work I did on operas by Bellini
* pilot this on a subset of articles, the Wagner Project's articles being the easiest to define (and not too numerous)
* also pilot a version of the standard WP assessment criteria which has been modified by Moreschi to make it more suitable for opera topics.  This can be found here.
The aim would be to see which method is easier to apply and also to refine both schemes, where necessary, in the light of experience, following discussion here.  The results would then be taken to the Opera Project for further discussion before roll-out of one method or the other.
The points system that I've devised is only applicable to articles on operas. Different schemes would need to be developed for people and for other operatic topics (genres, opera houses, opera companies, festivals, opera history, etc.).
Here's what I've come up with for operas (I'm assuming that all articles will at least say "A is an opera by B to a C-language libretto by D, based on the [work] E written by F", and am not allocating points for this):
Elements                                                                                                                            	Points
Background/history of composition etc                                                                                               	15
Performance history, including recent performance history and creators of roles (the latter will normally appear in the Roles table)	15
Tabulated list of roles                                                                                                             	05
Synopsis                                                                                                                            	10
Notable arias, etc: (preferably embedded in the synopsis)                                                                           	05
Discussion of music                                                                                                                 	15
Recordings                                                                                                                          	10
Illustrations                                                                                                                       	10
Inline references, notes, sources                                                                                                   	15
The points for each element are the most that can be allocated.  Elements that are present but brief or incomplete would attract part-scores.
The maximum total points for any article would thus be 100.  I'm tentatively suggesting that scores could be translated into the standard WP classification, as follows:
*0-39:  Stub
*40-69:  Start
*70-89:  B
*90+:  A
(Note that GA and FA classes are assessed and awarded independently, so do not figure in the above).
All comments and suggestions for improvement are welcome and should be posted below.
Timescale:  I'll be around until Sunday, then busy and/or away for ten days.  However, Kleinsach has volunteered to help with assessments, so there won't necessarily be a hiatus.  And can I re-emphasise that this is just a pilot.  The nitty-gritty of any specific assessment can (indeed should) be discussed here to help with refining the system.  
(I'll join the project on a temporary basis while this is going on.  On a personal note, I'm not that much of a Wagnerian.  There's one opera that I really like and one that I'll be happy never to see again; the rest, such as Tristan, which I have a date with next Monday, I don't mind seeing from time to time.  But none of that should affect the assessment experiment.)
--GuillaumeTell 17:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article assessment 1: proposal