Talk:Women in Christianity/Archive 1

message: Ok, this paragraph from the article is extremely POV, I would like some help revising it. For starters Pauls writings are far more influenced by his Pharisaic background than his Roman citizenship (if it is influenced by the latter at all), so that sentance has got to be changed if not tossed. Here is the paragraph in question.
: Paul combined Jewish ideas with Roman ideas and the Gospel in his many epistles to the growing church, and it was he who wrote about women keeping silent in church, covering their heads, and "subjecting" themselves to the rule of men. Some recent Biblical scholarship suggests that Paul has been partially misunderstood, particularly his infamous quotation from 1 Corinthians which demands that women be silent in church. Based on textual evidence, some scholars have argued that Paul is quoting part of a letter from the Corinthians to him, and refuting their anti-woman arguments in the subsequent passage. Other scholars, however, disagree, and feel that this is an attempt to rehabilitate Paul's image and reduce feminist criticism of the New Testament.
I am unaware of any evidence for any of the items stated above as fact. Assistance in editing this is requested. However I will proceed on my own in about a week and a half if I don't get some input from the community.
Also, as has already been pointed out several times, so-called Christian views on the place of women vary widely. Perhaps this article should be renamed Biblical Views of Women and let different denominational views sort themselves out into pages on those denominations. Or, since it is at least semi-apparent from the first post on this page, this entire article could be trashed since it was created for the sole purpose bashing the Christian faith.
Respectfully,
David 13:29, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisionist Writings 

message: I know that many people have worked hard to attempt to NPOV this but it points out all the negative things the Bible says about women, and somehow manages to skip the positive ones. For example, Eve was created after Adam, and from Adam, not dirt. Now in my reading of the Bible (and applying a little common sense) this should clearly state to anyone who cares to consider it that women are superior to men, but you don't get that from any of the Political Correctness crowd.
Or how about only quoting the verses from Ephesians about the woman should submit to the man, but completely neglecting the order to husbands to "...love your wife as Christ loved the church". Let's examine that a little more closely. Christ, all-powerful, all-knowing and author of creation (to just name three attributes) humbles himself taking on the "...very form of a servant" and giving up much of his rightful authority and power to enter our existance as a man, and submitting himself to what is arguably the most gruesome form of death-by-torture that mankind has ever devised (Phil 2:5-8). The Bible argues that while leadership is given to the man, he is to be a servant-leader, "..as Christ loved the church."
Tell me again, in terms of NPOV, why this page is here? - David 12:58, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is a mess 

message: I can't even begin to start on this page. If you go through all the Biblical references, you'll notice that it quotes Judges 14:1-3 (I'll quote the NIV which is accurate enough for my points):
Samson's Marriage
1 Samson went down to Timnah and saw there a young Philistine woman. 2 When he returned, he said to his father and mother, "I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah; now get her for me as my wife."
3 His father and mother replied, "Isn't there an acceptable woman among your relatives or among
all our people? Must you go to the uncircumcised Philistines to get a wife?"
But Samson said to his father, "Get her for me. She's the right one for me."
You'll notice that this is not a proper Christian attitude (incidently, quoting OT and saying they are Christians might be debatable, considering Christ wasn't yet around, thought the OT does point to Jesus), you'll note later in Judges that Samson pays the price for his folly.
Judges 19
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the
house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the
man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."
23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin
daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to
them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."
25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to
them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26
At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the
door and lay there until daylight.
27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to
continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her
hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then
the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.
29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve
parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 30 Everyone who saw it said, "Such a thing
has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Think about
it! Consider it! Tell us what to do!"
Look at this in it's wider context - there were awful consequences for the Benjamites because of this.
Genesis 29
24 And Laban gave his servant girl Zilpah to his daughter as her maidservant.
No mention of the context of this verse. In fact, there is no mention of the context of any of the verses. Any Bible college student, or even historian, knows you can't read out verses without explaining what they mean!
This appears to be just a list of the "worst" verses from the Bible. In fact one of them appears to be commenting on Christian behaviour, yet is totally wrong because it's referring to another non-Israelite tribe! The verse quoted is Judges 5:30 (Song of Deborah):
Judges 5
The Song of Deborah
1 On that day Deborah and Barak son of Abinoam sang this song:
2 "When the princes in Israel take the lead,
when the people willingly offer themselves-
praise the LORD !
3 "Hear this, you kings! Listen, you rulers!
I will sing to [1] the LORD , I will sing;
I will make music to [2] the LORD , the God of Israel.
4 "O LORD , when you went out from Seir,
when you marched from the land of Edom,
the earth shook, the heavens poured,
the clouds poured down water.
5 The mountains quaked before the LORD , the One of Sinai,
before the LORD , the God of Israel.
6 "In the days of Shamgar son of Anath,
in the days of Jael, the roads were abandoned;
travelers took to winding paths.
7 Village life [3] in Israel ceased,
ceased until I, [4] Deborah, arose,
arose a mother in Israel.
8 When they chose new gods,
war came to the city gates,
and not a shield or spear was seen
among forty thousand in Israel.
9 My heart is with Israel's princes,
with the willing volunteers among the people.
Praise the LORD !
10 "You who ride on white donkeys,
sitting on your saddle blankets,
and you who walk along the road,
consider 11 the voice of the singers [5] at the watering places.
They recite the righteous acts of the LORD ,
the righteous acts of his warriors [6] in Israel.
"Then the people of the LORD
went down to the city gates.
12 'Wake up, wake up, Deborah!
Wake up, wake up, break out in song!
Arise, O Barak!
Take captive your captives, O son of Abinoam.'
13 "Then the men who were left
came down to the nobles;
the people of the LORD
came to me with the mighty.
14 Some came from Ephraim, whose roots were in Amalek;
Benjamin was with the people who followed you.
From Makir captains came down,
from Zebulun those who bear a commander's staff.
15 The princes of Issachar were with Deborah;
yes, Issachar was with Barak,
rushing after him into the valley.
In the districts of Reuben
there was much searching of heart.
16 Why did you stay among the campfires [7]
to hear the whistling for the flocks?
In the districts of Reuben
there was much searching of heart.
17 Gilead stayed beyond the Jordan.
And Dan, why did he linger by the ships?
Asher remained on the coast
and stayed in his coves.
18 The people of Zebulun risked their very lives;
so did Naphtali on the heights of the field.
19 "Kings came, they fought;
the kings of Canaan fought
at Taanach by the waters of Megiddo,
but they carried off no silver, no plunder.
20 From the heavens the stars fought,
from their courses they fought against Sisera.
21 The river Kishon swept them away,
the age-old river, the river Kishon.
March on, my soul; be strong!
22 Then thundered the horses' hoofs-
galloping, galloping go his mighty steeds.
23 'Curse Meroz,' said the angel of the LORD .
'Curse its people bitterly,
because they did not come to help the LORD ,
to help the LORD against the mighty.'
24 "Most blessed of women be Jael,
the wife of Heber the Kenite,
most blessed of tent-dwelling women.
25 He asked for water, and she gave him milk;
in a bowl fit for nobles she brought him curdled milk.
26 Her hand reached for the tent peg,
her right hand for the workman's hammer.
She struck Sisera, she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.
27 At her feet he sank,
he fell; there he lay.
At her feet he sank, he fell;
where he sank, there he fell-dead.
28 "Through the window peered Sisera's mother;
behind the lattice she cried out,
'Why is his chariot so long in coming?
Why is the clatter of his chariots delayed?'
29 The wisest of her ladies answer her;
indeed, she keeps saying to herself,
30 'Are they not finding and dividing the spoils:
a girl or two for each man,
colorful garments as plunder for Sisera,
colorful garments embroidered,
highly embroidered garments for my neck-
all this as plunder?''''
31 "So may all your enemies perish, O LORD !
But may they who love you be like the sun
when it rises in its strength."
Then the land had peace forty years. 
The ladys aren't Israelites, they are Canaanites. See Judges 5:2:
2 So the LORD sold them into the hands of Jabin, a king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth Haggoyim. 3 Because he had nine hundred iron chariots and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the LORD for help.
I guess this was the clincher for me. It really is badly written, poorly researched piece of writing. It's almost a candidate for removal IMHO.
One last thing: there seems to be a lot of weasel words in this piece:
* "Some interpreters view the two verses from Deuteronomy" - which ones?
* "Others see these ancient Jewish scriptures as elevating women from the status of chattels" - which ones?
* "Some historians believe that in ancient times, men used their superior strength to force themselves on women to whatever the degree their physical or power permitted." - which ones?
* "Some recent Biblical scholarship suggests that Paul has been partially misunderstood" (no link explaining this evidence, we need proof!) which then says "Other scholars, however, disagree" (which scholars?)
* "many take this as the Bible implicit agreement with the double standard that men may be promiscuous and women may not" - who are the many? please give an example
* Others suggest that there is an implication that men would be held to the same standard, and that certainly there is no open statement that men are allowed to be promiscuous (numerous verses in the Bible denounce extramarital sex on the part of men and women). - this is a doubly bad sentence. Firstly, who are the others? Secondly, it's just stated that many verses in the Bible denounce extramarital sex on the part of men and women. This may be the case, but which verses?
* "Some Christians look upon these passages" (which Christians?)
* "Christianity, in many of its variations" (OK, should be self-evident, however because it says "in many of its variations" it needs to state which ones, or state which ones don't believe in the Bible.
* "Some opponents of Christianity and Fundamentalist Christians tend to focus on these verses which seem to deny women equality." - excuse me? I believe this is a POV I don't necessarily agree with. I want some evidence (quotes will do!).
Also, though the article states that the verses are from the Bible, it neglects to mention which version.
Ta bu shi da yu 14:51, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV of this page 

message: === Old Testament verses about female slaves ===
==== Deuteronomy 22:13-30 ====
If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed.
Deuteronomy 22:13-30 (NIV)
I've removed this verse because it's not about female slaves, it's about how a man should act within marriage, and also about rape. It should be in another area, so I'm putting this here so we can put it back in again - this time however after we actually read what the passage is about! (please excuse my cynicism.)
Ta bu shi da yu 10:07, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modifications I've done to OT section 

message: ==== Deuteronomy 22:13-30 ====
If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed.
Deuteronomy 22:13-30 (NIV)
I've removed this verse because it's not about female slaves, it's about how a man should act within marriage, and also about rape. It should be in another area, so I'm putting this here so we can put it back in again - this time however after we actually read what the passage is about! (please excuse my cynicism.)
Ta bu shi da yu 10:07, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Testament verses about female slaves 

message: If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed.
Deuteronomy 22:13-30 (NIV)
I've removed this verse because it's not about female slaves, it's about how a man should act within marriage, and also about rape. It should be in another area, so I'm putting this here so we can put it back in again - this time however after we actually read what the passage is about! (please excuse my cynicism.)
Ta bu shi da yu 10:07, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deuteronomy 22:13-30 

message: So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley.
Hosea 3:2 (NIV)
I've taken this out, because it's not about a female slave. In chapter 1, Hosea is told by God to take an unfaithful wife (presumably a prostitute), who leaves him to pursue lovers. Hosea is told to do this because he is going to model how God has been treated by unfaithful Israel. In Hosea 3, Hosea is told by God to "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes." Hosea goes back and is restored to Hosea. Presumably he has to pay to get her back again because she is involved in prostitution.
If the author had actually bothered to read the verse in context, this would have been very clear to him. This verse should not be under the section female slaves, so I've taken it out. I'm putting it here because it might be worthwhile putting it into another section not yet created.
Ta bu shi da yu 10:13, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hosea 3:2 

message: This verse refers to one of the 10 commandments:
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Exodus 20:17
This does not refer to female slaves, so I'm taking it out.
Ta bu shi da yu 11:00, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exodus 20:17 

message: This verse also refers to one of the 10 commandments, and is a reiteration of the laws that Moses gave the Israelites:
"You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Deuteronomy 5:21
This does not refer to female slaves, so I'm taking it out.
Ta bu shi da yu 07:19, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deuteronomy 5:21 

message: If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
Deuteronomy 25:5
This is not about female slavery. You could argue this is about inheritance issues (see Matthew Henry commentary). Marriage of the women was seen as respecting the widow and also honouring the name of dead man because if the women married the brother and not another then it was understood that the man's name would be ongoing and not "die" in Israel. However, this verse is also talked about in the New Testament in Matthew 22:24-43, where Jesus says that they don't understand scripture at all and that "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." (NIV)
This is also being taken out.
Ta bu shi da yu 07:19, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deuteronomy 25:5 

message: I have quoted this in full, using the NIV translation. I've also shifted the text that talks about the "two verses" of Deuteronomy to reside under this text, and have altered that phrase as there is only one Deuteronomy verse now. I've also added a section from Matthew Henry's commentary to try to try to improve the weasel words. I'd like to get rid of the other weasel term from the sentence, but I'm not as familiar with critics of the Bible.
Ta bu shi da yu 17:57, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deuteronomy 21:10-14 

message: This appears to be just a list of the "worst" verses from the Bible. In fact one of them appears to be commenting on Christian behaviour, yet is totally wrong because it's referring to another non-Israelite tribe! The verse quoted is Judges 5:30 (Song of Deborah):
 'Are they not finding and dividing the spoils:
a girl or two for each man,
colorful garments as plunder for Sisera,
colorful garments embroidered,
highly embroidered garments for my neck-
all this as plunder?'
Judges 5:30
Seems pretty damning, until you realise that it's a Canaanite speaking and not an Israelite. It's outta there! Another example of the agenda of the author.
Ta bu shi da yu 13:21, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judges 5:30 

message: Firstly, whoever wrote that section in the first place doesn't understand Biblical theology very well, didn't understand the importance of context, and doesn't understand the difference between Old Testament Judaism as opposed to New Testament Christianity. So, I've removed it. Besides this, there is a whole article on this that does a much better job called Old Testament views on women. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of whole sections 

message: Shouldn't this article be titled "New Testament views of women" so as to parallel the Old Testament views of women?
Posiduck 21:56, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title question 

message: I thought the opening list was still POV, so I split the third group into two groups. I agree with the first group personally, but I don't think it's accurate to say that it's contrary to international law to believe a woman should be subordinate to her husband as a theological belief. (Believing that women should be legally barred from certain professions or from voting, etc. is another thing; hence four groups instead of three.)
I also thought it would be beneficial to distinguish between what churches say now and what various churches have said in the past, hence the currently/historically division. There isn't much in either section now, especially the historical one, but that can be remedied in time.
I organized all thoses verses into "biblical arguments in favor of equal roles". I also added a little on Quakers in historical section, because that's what I know about; ideally we'd have a lot more than is there by other denominations.
I think we should also have a following section on the arguments against, since that's where most of this issue stems from in the first place. And, as Jwrosenzweig said, it's currently too Christian friendly. Also, I think we should have a section, "By issue", with subsections "Women in the church", "Women and marriage", and probably "Women themselves". In the latter could go things like Aquinas's view on women as defective men, etc. I added these to the to-do list.
As it stands it's still needs work, but I think it's better organized. Zach 22:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes on edit 7 April 

message: about this line:
: There are also numerous accounts of female deaconesses, elders and bishops.
I've heard and read a bit about deaconesses, but elders (priests)? bishops? These are new to me. Can anyone cite some specific examples? Wesley 04:39, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the NT i'm pretty sure there aren't any. But I'm also pretty sure that Gnostic Christians had women bishops. Which doesn't help us any since the section is Biblical arguments... Maybe it should be changed to
* Arguments for equal roles
** Biblical arguments
** Other arguments
and so on for "Arguments for equal yet distinct"? Zach 23:17, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source requested regarding women bishops 

message: That section ("Biblical arguments for distinct gender roles") is appallingly written, I can't even see what its trying to get at, or even if it contains a proper sentence. Could the person that wrote it please do something to make it make sense? --francis 20:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblical arguments for distinct gender roles 

message: I have started the article Women as theological figures, and would like people to contribute to the subject.
Where do the Apocrypha fit into the discussion on the Chrietian views of women?
Jackiespeel 13:13, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women as theological figures 

message: : There are also numerous accounts of female deaconesses, elders and bishops.
'False. First, can we say 'weasel words'? Please cite your sources, as well. Because in the Bible, there is a single deaconess, Phoebe, mentioned in the Bible, and that is all. Not a single elder. (In fact, Paul disallows women elders and ministers.) And since bishops were not even conceived of in 'Biblical times', women being bishops (which I have not heard of) is hardly a 'Biblical argument.' - ElAmericano | talk 18:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccuracies 

message: Couldn't this be renamed the Christian views on women, to clarify that it's not about Women's Christian views? -- TheMightyQuill 15:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It's not a big deal; I don't think many will confused. But the change is slightly better. --Ephilei 21:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian views ''on'' women