Talk:Anti-art

message: *Review of book on anti-art.. 
*Interesting snippet from the Tate. Tyrenius 23:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done some of that. I agree about the notes, which have more text than the articles, but some of this should be reworded or quoted into the text, which is often very bald. I've removed the refimprove tag as most of that has been done, although I know some sections remain. If anyone wants to re-add it, fine. Johnbod (talk) 14:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Useful refs

message: The article needs to be a "friendly" exposition to the reader of the place that "anti-art" and "anti-art" tendencies plays in the art world. It shouldn't be a screed about the "oppression" that visual art inflicts on the world. Visual art isn't slavery. It shouldn't be equated with slavery. Let's be real. Bus stop (talk) 12:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found this . I'm not sure how it relates to this article. If one moves one's cursor over or clicks on the items in the diagram, one finds what seems to be the basis for this article. Bus stop (talk) 17:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The content is flowing the other way. It looks like it turns WP articles into mind maps. Pretty cool IMHO, but nothing to do with this article in particular.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 18:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd have a job finding your way using that one! Johnbod (talk) 19:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's be real 

message: The references are way too long. They need trimming to say the least...Modernist (talk) 21:10, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Note bombing

message: Bus stop has added this to the article : "The Guerrilla Girls are a group of radical feminist artists established in New York City in 1985, known for using creative posters to promote women and people of color in the arts." Bus stop, could you please tell us why they are in Anti-art ? Because they use posters ? Could you please explain and also provide a reference linking them to anti-art ? Thank you. Armando Navarro (talk) 21:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Perhaps they should be removed from the article. Bus stop (talk) 23:05, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Agreed. And no problem. And I will try to do some research to support my point of view. Good to talk it out. Bus stop (talk) 03:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The Guerrilla Girls

message: What is the "array of concepts and attitudes?" (First paragraph) "Array of concepts and attitudes" may have a source, but how does that phrase belong in the article? Is there really an "array of concepts and attitudes?" What are they? Perhaps that deserves to be expanded upon in the article. If there isn't truly an array of concepts and attitudes, then I don't think that phrase belongs in the article, even if it is sourced. Bus stop (talk) 00:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Array of concepts and attitudes" 

message: I am getting the sense that anything anti-formalist; conceptual; postminimal; minimal; avant-garde; new - is being lumped together as anti-art. I agree with the question above posed by Bus Stop concerning these opening remarks, an array of concepts and attitudes [1] which reject art and then follow with lists and references to literally dozens of works of art and artists...seems like point of view pushing to me...Modernist (talk) 03:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Unless a source specifically specifically talks about a mode/style/school or whatever as "anti-art", then it is purely an editorial interpretation in violation of WP:NOR, therefore not allowed. See WP:SYNTH. Ty 03:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. For example I'm dubious the Surrealists belong here. Johnbod (talk) 11:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: As I say, the Surrealists. Johnbod (talk) 14:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Joseph Beuys (cf. my comment here) Enki H. (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: A dissenting opinion: I think Alexander Rodchenko is no more second-rate than Marcel Duchamp. Bus stop (talk) 20:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I think a case can be made for Dada's inclusion, indeed the article goes some way to do so. But as Ty says, anything included needs to be justified with specific references. Johnbod (talk) 17:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Anti-art is associated with Dada". "Anti-art: "A loosely used term associated with art which debunks the traditional categories or concepts of art. It was supposedly coined by Marcel Duchamp in 1914. Dada was considered the first anti-art movement." The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms.http://www.oxfordartonline.com Ty 00:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a problem with this - "Refers to art that challenges the existing accepted definitions of art", it's this - an array of concepts and attitudes [1] which reject art
(which I have since changed) that I disagreed with...Modernist (talk) 00:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally, very little of the stuff below is in the article so far. Johnbod (talk) 03:29, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

text:  You are citing four isolated occurrences of the term by mostly unremarkable authors that use it incidentally, not centrally in their exposition. This is in contradiction to Beuys' own claims, as well as an overwhelming(!) body of work to the contrary. I shall give you only one counterexample: in "Joseph Beuys, Diverging Critiques" (1995, Tate Liverpool), Editor David Thistlewood sums up a lecture series/collection of essays of "historians, critics, museologists", all of them notable experts on Joseph Beuys and his reception. There are many relevant passages but most literally perhaps this: He had one hand in conventional modes of artistic production and the other in activities which, conventionally, had never before been considered 'art'. Most certainly therefore Beuy's position is not regarded as being anti-art and in fact his inclusion as an example of "anti-art" would contradict most of what he stood for and what he is appreciated for. It may be your personal opinion but it does not appear to be shared by other experts or knowledgeable editors. In this regard, please have a look at Wikipedia:Fringe theories, to wit: Coverage on Wikipedia should not make a fringe theory appear more notable than it actually is. I am not sure how to help you here, I will (again)l remove the Beuys passage for now and I sincerely ask you to establish a consensus here if you still cannot agree. Thank you Enki H. (talk) 05:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Apples and oranges

message: *John Xiros Cooper. "Modernism and the Culture of Market Society". Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 28. "Indeed even the anti-art of Dada, Duchamp’s R. Mutt urinal for example, carried a double charge of meaning, the absolute primacy of pure form, over and above function, and a social critique of the fate of art in a commercial and philistine culture."
*Larry Shiner. “The Invention of Art: A Cultural History”. University of Chicago Press, 2003, p. 254. “Among those in the anti-art wing of dada, Tristan Tzara was perhaps cleverest at provocation: ‘ART — a parrot word — replaced by DADA, PLESIOSAURUS, or handkerchief". 
*Beret E. Strong. ""The poetic avant-garde: the groups of Borges, Auden, and Breton"". Northwestern University Press, 1997, pp. 27-28 : ""A movement of nearly unremitting anarchism and nihilism, Dadaism clearly also represents the most radical canonical in¬stance of an avant-garde critique of society's relationship to art. One of its defining characteristics is a deep hatred of the bourgeois status of art, a hatred that led the movement to try to produce anti-art. Eagleton (1990) may have the Dadaists in mind when he discusses art that tries to reinvent itself as anti-art:'There would seem only one route left open, and that is an art which rejects the aesthetic. An art against itself, which confesses the impossi¬bility of art. . . . An art, in short, which will undo all this depressing history, which will go right back even before the beginning, before the dawning of the whole category of the aesthetic, and seek to override in its own way that moment at the birth of modernity when the cognitive, the ethico-political and libidinal-aesthetic became uncoupled from one another. This time, however, it will seek to do it not in the manner of the radical aestheticizers, by the aesthetic colonizing of these other two regions, but by folding the aesthetic into the other two systems. . . . This is the revolutionary avant garde. (370)'Whether Dadaism's mission was to integrate poetry and sociopolitical activism is arguable, but its fate illustrates the riskiness of achieving pres¬tige on a platform of pure destruction. Once everything, including the movement itself, had been leveled, there was no convincing raison d'etre: Dada's mission had been accomplished and it was too late to rewrite the agenda."
*Thomas Patin and Jennifer McLerran. "Artwords: a glossary of contemporary art theory". Greenwood Publishing Group, 1997, p. 6.  : “ANTI-ART This term is often linked to artists associated with Dada, because of their aggressive opposition to bourgeois cultural values, and their emphasis on chance, nonsense, and absurdity.”
*I don't object to Dada being included in the article; I do object to the mis-perception of Dadaists as not making art; Dadaists made what was intended to be art; Duchamp redefined art; he doesn't end art; he doesn't stop art; he redefined what art is....Modernist (talk) 02:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References that support Dada's inclusion in the article 

message: *Larry Shiner. “The Invention of Art: A Cultural History”. University of Chicago Press, 2003, p. 227. “‘Anti-art’ movements such as dada and Russian constructivism or the authors of anti-art gestures such as Marcel Duchamp or John Cage, for example”
*Rob van Gerwen. "Art and Experience". Publications Of The Department Of Philosophy, Utrecht University , Volume XIV, 1996, p. 64 : "What to do with the so- called hard cases of anti-art, such as Duchamp’s Fountain, and Cage’s 4’33’’?" p.66 : "There is no artistic intentionality in  4’33’’ or Fountain, only causality, and the effects of these works of anti-art are restricted to philosophers trying to find out how to devise a definition of art that might accommodate them without expelling more traditional procedures."
*J. M. Bernstein. "Against voluptuous bodies: late modernism and the meaning of painting". Stanford University Press, 2006, p. 247 :"The anti-art moment of modernist works, the moment that Duchamp and Rodchenko attempt to make complete, enacts art's desire to be world and not art; but only as art, as semblance, can art evince that desire, perform it."
*John Xiros Cooper. "Modernism and the Culture of Market Society". Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 28. "Indeed even the anti-art of Dada, Duchamp’s R. Mutt urinal for example, carried a double charge of meaning, the absolute primacy of pure form, over and above function, and a social critique of the fate of art in a commercial and philistine culture."
Armando Navarro (talk) 03:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References that support Duchamp's inclusion in the article 

message: *"Editors : Hent de Vries and Lawrence Eugene Sullivan. ""Political theologies: public religions in a post-secular world"". Fordham Univ Press, 2006, pp. 619-620. ""Yet surrealism's actual involvement with aesthetics, like its involvement with theology, has been premised, more often than not, upon the spectacular demise of art itself. In the wake of Dada, surrealism's engagement with art was really a question of anti-art, although the surrealists, unlike the dadaists, carried this dialectical demise through to its complete end, making a full cycle past the destruction of art to arrive at a point where something new—a radically new approach to artistic production—could arise like a phoenix from the ashes. In a mono¬graph on the minimalist painter Ad Reinhardt—not a surrealist himself, but not entirely unsympathetic to surrealist sensibilities—Susan Sontag outlines the mystical movement between art and anti-art:'As the activity of the mystic must end in a via negativa, a theology of God's absence, a craving for the cloud of unknowingness beyond knowledge and for the silence beyond speech, so art must tend toward anti-art, the elimination of the ""subject"" .... the substitution of chance for intention, and the pursuit of silence.. .. Therefore, art becomes estimated as something to be overthrown. A new element enters the art¬work and becomes constitutive of it: the appeal (tacit or overt) for its own abolition, and, ultimately of art itself.7'This description holds true for surrealism as well as for minimalism: as a critical practice, surrealism carefully balances on this fine line between art and anti-art, or perhaps more legitimately, between the development of anti-art as a productive strategy and the call for the ultimate overthrow of art, whose limitations were far greater than those of the human imagination."""
IMHO a misreading of Surrealism. Or rather once again a rather shadowy definition of Anti-art to mean whenever changes take place to the status quo - that becomes anti-art...until it becomes the status quo...Modernist (talk) 02:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References that support Surrealism's inclusion in the article 

message: *Thomas R. H. Havens. “Radicals and realists in the Japanese nonverbal arts: the avant-garde rejection of modernism”. University of Hawaii Press, 2006, p. 137 : “As pioneered by Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns, the ANTI-ART of Neo-Dada and of pop art was the next step beyond abstract expressionism and informel, Miyakawa contended.”
*Sorry - this is utterly unacceptable. I see no mention of Anti-art here..are you kidding? The next step beyond Abstract expressionism and a rejection of modernism does not anti-art make...Modernist (talk) 01:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References that support Neo-Dada's inclusion in the article 

message: *Tilman Osterwold. “Pop art”. Taschen, 2003, p. 44. “‘I want to be a machine,’ says Andy Warhol, the founder of an art ‘Factory’ in New York, where pictures were reproduced using photographic clippings as models. Even confirmed painters like Robert Rauschen- berg, Roy Lichtenstein and Jasper Johns spoke of the ‘depersonalization’ and ‘anonymity’ of their work.” P. 55. : “Pop artists saw their work as anti-art, at least in relation to traditional notions of art. They expressed this in their depersonalization of style, their anti-subjectivism, in the roles they assumed in mass society and in their redefinition of art itself.”
*Mentioned here...but the context here is - in relation to traditional notions of art. Which is essentially my point...Modernist (talk) 01:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References that support Pop Art's inclusion in the article 

message: *Roswitha Mueller. “Valie Export: fragments of the imagination”. Indiana University Press, 1994, p. XV :  “On that occasion Maciunas also gave a lecture titled "Neo-Dada in the United States,” in which he delineated in manifesto fashion the characteristics of the new movement. As the title indicates, Fluxus was viewed as a renewal of Dadaism. Like Dadaism, Fluxus is anti-art, favoring spontaneous, improvised actions over intentionality and the concrete and living over the artistic: “The anti-art forms are primarily directed against art as a profession, against the artificial separation of producer or performer, of generator and spectator or against the separation of art and life."”
*George Maciunas. Fluxus Manifesto, 1963. “PROMOTE A REVOLUTIONARY FLOOD AND TIDE IN ART, Promote living art, anti-art, promote NON ART REALITY to be grasped by all peoples, not only critics, dilettantes and professionals.” 
*Sally Banes. “Greenwich Village 1963: Avant-garde Performance and the Effervescent Body”. Duke University Press, 1993, p. 61 : “From the start, Maciunas was interested in a notion of mass production and circulation that was partly inspired by Soviet constructivist, functionalist experimentation in art and graphic design of the Twenties. But in his desire to make art accessible, he was partly inspired by Cage and his Zen-influenced use of everyday experiences in art. Maciunas’s program was specifically framed as anti-art, in the sense that he railed against the professionalization of art and called instead for amateurization. He believed that art should be able to be made by everybody and should be accessible to everybody through the mass distribution of low cost multiples.”
Armando Navarro (talk) 02:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References that support Fluxus' inclusion in the article 

message: *RoseLee Goldberg. “Performance: live art, 1909 to the present”. H. N. Abrams, 1979, p. 96 : “Beuys's polemical art and anti-art attitudes soon began to disturb the authorities; considered a disruptive element within the institution, he was always up against considerable opposition there and was finally, in 1972, dismissed amidst violent student protest.”
*Moira Weigel. “Grand illusion”. The Guardian, 25 April 2009. “Nor could he [Gerhard Richter] embrace the anti-art ideals of Beuys and the Fluxus group, which were deeply hostile to his form of studio practice.”
*Michael Kimmelman. “Exploring A Labyrinth Of Ambiguities”. The New York Times, February 19, 1993. “Nonetheless, many of these early works are peculiarly exquisite. Beuys reveals in them a formal sensibility, a feel for the poetry of materials and a delicacy of touch that belie his anti-art posture.”
*Richard Kearney. “The Wake of Imagination”. Routledge, 1998, p. 254 : “Marcel Duchamp announces the end of humanist art as an expression of the creative imagination: art becomes an anti-art which ironically mimics the dehumanizing tendencies of our mechanistic age. The works of Lichtenstein, Beuys, Ben Vautier, Ballagh and Warhol confirm this conviction.”
Armando Navarro (talk) 18:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are citing four isolated occurrences of the term by mostly unremarkable authors that use it incidentally, not centrally in their exposition. This is in contradiction to Beuys' own claims, as well as an overwhelming(!) body of work to the contrary. I shall give you only one counterexample: in "Joseph Beuys, Diverging Critiques" (1995, Tate Liverpool), Editor David Thistlewood sums up a lecture series/collection of essays of "historians, critics, museologists", all of them notable experts on Joseph Beuys and his reception. There are many relevant passages but most literally perhaps this: He had one hand in conventional modes of artistic production and the other in activities which, conventionally, had never before been considered 'art'. Most certainly therefore Beuy's position is not regarded as being anti-art and in fact his inclusion as an example of "anti-art" would contradict most of what he stood for and what he is appreciated for. It may be your personal opinion but it does not appear to be shared by other experts or knowledgeable editors. In this regard, please have a look at Wikipedia:Fringe theories, to wit: Coverage on Wikipedia should not make a fringe theory appear more notable than it actually is. I am not sure how to help you here, I will (again)l remove the Beuys passage for now and I sincerely ask you to establish a consensus here if you still cannot agree. Thank you Enki H. (talk) 05:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: References that support Beuys' inclusion in the article 

message: Hello. You placed a template which says "The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved" at the top of the article on Anti-art but it is not clear to what discussion you are making a reference to on the talk page. Is what you call "note bombing" supposed to be the problem of neutrality ? If so, could you please make the issues of neutrality you see in "Note bombing" clearer and in any case could you please make all this clearer by naming the section about the dispute with a clear name such as "neutrality dispute" for example. Thank you. Armando Navarro (talk) 21:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While see also can be useful (and I use it too) it is usually just so much wasted space...Modernist (talk) 02:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And if Rodchenko had stopped making art after 1921 I might not think that the above was utter nonsense...He made art until the 1950s...His wife Stepanovas aesthetic drivel is still drivel...the guy stopped painting, turning to collage, photography and design..please! Sadly to quote Peter Schjeldahl Having dashingly declared painting dead in 1921, the marginalized Rodchenko painted pictures of sad clowns. Modernist (talk) 03:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So much rhetorical crap, blah, blah, blah, - Rodchenko returned to painting - so much for the end of painting - have you seen his three monochromatic paintings? They look like Ellsworth Kelly, Brice Marden and they most definitely look like art....Modernist (talk) 17:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If the sources are reliable, which they seem to be, then their content can be included + any reliable source with content which refutes them, if any exists. It would be best to conduct this on the article talk page, and in fact to copy this conversation to there. Ty 00:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality dispute in Anti-art

message: As I said - I am getting the sense that anything anti-formalist; conceptual; postminimal; minimal; avant-garde; new - is being lumped together as anti-art. The definition here now of ANTI-ART is ten miles wide in every direction...one term fits all; over nearly 100 years; whenever changes take place to the status quo - that becomes anti-art...until it becomes the status quo....Modernist (talk) 02:38, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Apples and oranges II

message: Armando Navarro has collected quite a number of references that appear to use that very term. That would support the claim that the term is used - at least by some. While some editors (me included) believe it is a misnomer, this doesn't change the fact that it has been published. But what needs to be worked out  is:
# What artist/movement exactly is the term being applied to in each specific source (as opposed to taking that usage and applying it to other artists/movements we think might fit the definition - as per WP:OR).
# What exactly is the definition of "art" and "anti-art" in each instance - (if different authors use the same word with a different definition, these are still different concepts). If we apply the 19th century idea of "art" - a very specific domain of cultural techniques - then calling Dada, surrealism etc. not that, appears factually correct. But that's just no longer what we mean by "art" today. Since different definitions of "art" underlie the term anti-art, it becomes crucial to limit the term to the correct historical context and make that explicit. 
# Contextualize statements that are confusing and contradictory (A statement like Anti-art can take the form of art or not. actually says it can be everything and is therefore nothing.)
# Make sure the article focuses on the term and its published use (as opposed to interpreting the term and using the interpretation to search for other applicable situations.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enki H. (talk • contribs) 14:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Anti-art is a term that has been used to describe ...
and then describe the concepts it has applied to, source that, and don't unduly extend the original scope. (by "has been applied to" I don't mean: has been applied to Dada, but has been applied to express exactly what about Dada...").
Enki H. (talk) 14:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I would agree broadly. Also the stuff in the quotes, and the notes currently in the article, has to be worked into the article text much more.  Since there are, I'm sure, at least as many who would deny that say the Surrealists are "anti-art", a more distanced tone should be used: "fooists have been claimed to be/associated with" and so on. It is always a somewhat rhetorical & nebulous concept, so I don't mind casting the net widely, but description of a particular artist as anti-art should be presented as a one critical view among many (even when it is cited to the artists themselves). Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Attempt at synthesis and a way forward

message: Here are two sources that provide the basic definition:
*"Anti-art: "A loosely used term associated with art which debunks the traditional categories or concepts of art. It was supposedly coined by Marcel Duchamp in 1914. Dada was considered the first anti-art movement." The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms. http://www.oxfordartonline.com
*"Anti-art: Refers to art that challenges the existing accepted definitions of art. It is generally agreed to have been coined by Marcel Duchamp around 1913 when he made his first readymades, which are still regarded in some quarters as Anti-art (for example by the Stuckist group). In 1917 Duchamp submitted a urinal, titled Fountain, for an exhibition in New York, which subsequently became notorious and eventually highly influential. Anti-art is associated with Dada, the artistic and literary movement founded in Zurich in 1916 and simultaneously in New York, in which Duchamp was a central figure. Since Dada there have been many art movements that have taken a position on Anti-art, from the lo-fi Mail art movement to the YBAs, some of whom have embraced the absurdities of Dada and Duchamp’s love of irony, paradox and punning." 
*There is a longer overview, which I have copied to Talk:Anti-art/Encyclopedia of Aesthetics. (I will delete this when it is no longer needed.) This sees punk within the anti-art context.
There are many references to the ongoing use and changing implications of the term "anti-art". Here are some:
*"US art critic Clement Greenberg thought avant-garde art had clarified and purified the aesthetics of traditional art rather than overthrown it, as is usually thought. At the same time, the avant-garde spawned the Duchampian cancer of anti-art - Greenberg called it "Novelty Art" - that eventually destroyed art from within. For him, Duchamp's ironical destructiveness was a deliberate attack on aesthetic experience. It is a fragile experience, which is why the attack was successful. Anti-art - or, as Allan Kaprow, the inventor of happenings, astutely called it, post-art, meaning art in which the boundary between art and life is blurred to the extent that it becomes unclear what art is - has become the dominant mode of art-making."
*"There is another irony to attacks on avant-garde art: the history of the modern avant-garde is itself full of the rhetoric of iconoclasm. Marcel Duchamp suggested using a Rembrandt painting as an ironing-board. The Italian Futurists recommended blowing up the Giotto-frescoed Arena Chapel in Padua. No end of anti-art movements have urged that the museums be put to the torch. Even so, the anti-art cause was never absolutely anti. One destroys art for art's sake, for the sake of expanded ideas of art."
*"The interesting thing is that more and more, Puckish anti-artists have the values that today’s commercial barons want to associate themselves with. A representational portrait projects its subject’s mastery as a settled fact, monument-like, historical; today’s anti-art-for-hire instead projects innovation, edginess, and weds carnival-like populism with the connotation of luxury goods -- better suited to the modern capitalist."
*"Modern art is not really art but anti-art and detached from true culture which develops amongst a people or community and grows traditions over time. However, the irony is that the people producing unmade beds or piles of bricks need the established old masters and traditional art as a background; for if the old standards were truly swept away, no one would be able to say: ‘Oooh, what a provocative statement, Tracey’."
*Stuckist "Anti-anti-art manifesto".
Ty 08:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I say, go with a paraphrase of The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms definition in the first sentence. Then, keep close to the sources that specifically use the term. Otherwise the article becomes an essay. Rousseau and Marx and all the 19th century sources need to be cut per WP:PRIMARY and WP:SYNTH.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 22:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: A way forward - follow sources

message: I have reinstated my removal of the extensive quotes by Rousseau and Marx. Both philosophers did not comment on the subject of the article. Rousseau speaks about a particular instance of art; Marx speaks about the problem of the division of labour. These are both interesting philosophical contributions but (A) the way the material is presented here conflicts with WP:PRIMARY, (B) the way this is taken out of context and used to support a particular POV regarding the article topic conflicts with WP:SYNTH. Supporting secondary sources have not been quoted. To the best of my understanding the relevance of these quotes for the use of the term anti-art has not been established. Please establish consensus here before considering to revert (again). Enki H. (talk) 02:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The interpretation of Rousseau as writing about "anti-art" is your original point of view. With it, you are violating WP:PRIMARY. To quote: All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. Your quote of Marx has the same problem. Moreover, citing them in this context contradicts the article's (consensus) view that anti-art positions are expressed from within the art world and it is thus a contradiction within the article. If you are using these quotes as background for the SI, they belong into that article, not here. Finally, you have not established consensus here but merely stated your opinion and reverted my change. Please undo your reversion, then establish consensus here before proceeding. Enki H. (talk) 13:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted until a consensus is reached here...Modernist (talk) 13:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Include a ref that describes Rousseau as an anti-art writer. If a similar source exists for Marx that can go in as well. Rousseau and Marx can't be used as primary sources in the article.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 18:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Excuse me? I did read your contribution before I deleted it. You seem to have WP:OWN issues here...You make your own consensus? Modernist (talk) 21:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

text: (1) The discussion under the heading "De-escalate! (a way forward II)" reflects a consensus among editors that "anti-art" applies to a position that is taken up by "creatives"(not to call them "artists").  Criticism that is levelled at art from the domain of philosophy, politics, religion etc. is not "anti-art" in the sense of the article. Enki H. (talk) 01:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

text: (2) Just to stay with Rousseau for the moment: if your source (Schouvaloff 1970) discusses anti-art and would justify his argument with his reading of Rousseau, then he would be a proper secondary source and could be quoted thus (note: not Rousseau could be quoted, but Schouvaloff could be). If you are quoting Rousseau rather than quoting Schouvaloff, you are making an original intellectual contribution by placing Rousseau's thoughts into a novel context. By all means, do that and get that published in a peer reviewed publication under your name, it's certain to be much more satisfying (and valuable) than what's happening here right now. But here on Wikipedia they have a number of policies against doing exactly that as frustrating as that may be at times to any and all of us. I sincerely hope this clarifies the issue now. Enki H. (talk) 01:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

text: "Marx [and others] developing [...] challenges to the dichotomies of the modern fine art system" [...] "the capitalist class no longer made and participated in art..." [...] "the abolition of private property would enable a mode of production in which the making of art was no different from any other making. In such a society the artist would no longer stand apart as the only free creator[...] there will be "no painters but, at most, people who engage in painting among other activities [...] of course, the later Marx turned away from such utopian speculations to build a theory of "scientific socialism" and inevitable revolution, but his fragmentary reflections on art still inspire those who seek a reintegration of art and everyday life in a context of social justice (Rose 1984)" (quoted from Shiner op cit. p. 236, 237).
Marx was critical of many aspects of what he considered to be manifestations of the Bourgeoisie. But in my reading this source does not check out: it does not literally support what is claimed, it does not accurately reflect Shiner's views and it claims support of aspects that are clearly not in the source. Now what? Enki H. (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Rousseau and Marx 

message: I checked out Larry Shiner's book. It's been cited as a secondary source for: art was a consequence of the class system and therefore concluded that, in a communist society, there would only be people who engage in the making of art and no "artists". 3 pages were given as reference. The first page is a section heading only, no other mention of Marx. The third page list Marx and Emerson, Ruskin, Morris, the Arts and Crafts movement, the German Werkbund, Kiekegaard, and indeed Tolstoy's essay What is art (somehow we overlooked to include Tolstoy in the article ;-). The second page cited (p.236) discusses Marx' views. It speaks about:
:"Marx [and others] developing [...] challenges to the dichotomies of the modern fine art system" [...] "the capitalist class no longer made and participated in art..." [...] "the abolition of private property would enable a mode of production in which the making of art was no different from any other making. In such a society the artist would no longer stand apart as the only free creator[...] there will be "no painters but, at most, people who engage in painting among other activities [...] of course, the later Marx turned away from such utopian speculations to build a theory of "scientific socialism" and inevitable revolution, but his fragmentary reflections on art still inspire those who seek a reintegration of art and everyday life in a context of social justice (Rose 1984)" (quoted from Shiner op cit. p. 236, 237).
Marx was critical of many aspects of what he considered to be manifestations of the Bourgeoisie. But in my reading this source does not check out: it does not literally support what is claimed, it does not accurately reflect Shiner's views and it claims support of aspects that are clearly not in the source. Now what? Enki H. (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Marx: supported by source?

message: I vaguely remember reading a definition of anti-art that stated it was not against art, but simply believed life to be more important, and that art should serve life, not vice-versa. Can't find the source anywhere though, unfortunately. Instead, I have an early quote from Maciunas;
"The anti-art forms are primarily directed against art as a profession, against the artificial separation of producer or performer, of generator and spectator or against the separation of art and life. They oppose forms artificial in themselves, models or methods of composition, of artificially constructed phenomena in the various areas of artistic practice, against intentional, conscious formalism and against the fixation of art on meaning, against the demand of music to be heard and that of plastic art to be seen; and finally against the thesis that both should be acknowledged and understood. Anti-art is life, nature; true reality is the one and all. The bird song is anti-art. The pouring rain, the chattering of an impatient audience, sneeze noises... or compositions like "letting a butterfly caught in a net fly away" or "what an audience left to its own devices does for amusement"- all of these examples may be viewed in this sense as anti-art." Maciunas, Kleinen Sommerfest lecture June 9 1962, quoted in Fluxus Codex p23
The piece links Maciunas' ideas about concretism - real things as art, like the pebbles in the flux atlas (see  )- as a politically inspired opposition to the mimetic nature of most western art, and its value as arbiter of its worth. Anyway, feel free to use it if it's in any way useful.Franciselliott (talk) 00:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Maciunas' take on Anti-art

message: The current article (Jan 2nd, 2010) uses the word, "important" twice in the first paragraph.  Although technically this is permissible, it is impermissible from a literary stylistic point of view.  Someone please change it.   Thanks, -- (talk) 10:20, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is only one - importantly - there...Modernist (talk) 12:12, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks good.  -- (talk) 00:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  very (un)Important point 

message: The first paragraph seems to have a close paraphrasing issue. (see Wikipedia:PARAPHRASE)
Here is the entry:
:The term Anti-art refers to art which presents a challenge to the currently existing definition of art.[1] It is a term that by wide consensus seems to have been coined by Marcel Duchamp.[1] This would have been around the time that he began making readymades around 1913.[1] Some still regard the readymades as being anti-art, for instance the Stuckist group of artists.[1] Duchamp's Fountain is highly noteworthy.[1] Anti-art is associated with Dada, an art movement founded in 1916 in Zurich, with which Duchamp is also importantly associated.[1] Many more art movements have over time taken a position in relation to anti-art.[1]
Here is: 
http://www.tate.org.uk/collections/glossary/definition.jsp?entryId=571
:Anti-art refers to art that challenges the existing accepted definitions of art. It is generally agreed to have been coined by Marcel Duchamp around 1913 when he made his first readymades, which are still regarded in some quarters as Anti-art (for example by the Stuckist group). In 1917 Duchamp submitted a urinal, titled Fountain, for an exhibition in New York, which subsequently became notorious and eventually highly influential. Anti-art is associated with Dada, the artistic and literary movement founded in Zurich in 1916 and simultaneously in New York, in which Duchamp was a central figure. Since Dada there have been many art movements that have taken a position on Anti-art.
I see that this entry has a particularly active and passionate talk page, so I do not want to change anything on the page itself, but I want to point this out and suggest that, some of this information could be integrated into the rest of the article, the sentences about the readymades and Duchamp's Fountain being noteworthy could be moved to the pages about those two things (if that information is not there already), and some of the other information condensed (for example the second and third sentence could become "The term is believed to have been coined by Marcel Duchamp around 1913." 
Nb99 (talk) 20:16, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed it is too close to the source. One problem is that this is the key information that needs to be included in the lead (hence why it was in the Tate definition), so it's not appropriate to remove it altogether. The ready-mades and the Fountain are the seminal works of anti-art and need to be linked with the origin of the term, anti-art. "Is believed to have been coined" is not strong enough for the original: "by wide consensus seems to have been coined". I will have a look for another source also. Ty 02:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Close paraphrasing in first paragraph 

message: There are two quotes of Duchamps on the subject of art and more specifically anti art. evidence of them can be found here http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=haon2DXWvLk
I think the source of this interview is : The Late Show Line Up: BBC UK Interview with Marcel Duchamp, 
June 5, 1968 interview conducted by Joan Bakewell. this needs to be confirmed and checked. 
Duchamp here states that he would like to get rid of art in the way many have done away with religion- this would lead one to assume that duchamp see's art as a social and ideological construct, by comparing it to religion and atheism i.e. lack of belief. 
and that something being seen as art or someone being an artist is something "purely artificial".
It should be noted that Duchamp both rejects certain elements of art expressed by his ready-mades, but also rejects art itself by stating he wants to get rid of it. 
PAB1990 (talk) 10:14, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duchamp quotes 

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