Talk:Historical European martial arts

message: Wait a second, the Italian Renaissance started around 1400.  And yet Fiore is listed as as a medieval fight master. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarquisCthulhu‎ (talk • contribs) 19:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Another Late-Renaissance or Early-Modern fencing instructor would be Joseph Swetnam, who published Schoole of the Noble and Worthy Science of Defence in 1617.  Swetnam was an advocate of the long rapier, and makes a few derogatory remarks about George Silver in his book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.91.33.254 (talk) 19:56, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Some call Silver "The Last Medieval Swordsman" with good reason. The mechanics of Silver's system are much closer to I.33 or Fiore than to Swetnam, despite the shared English heritage and proximity in time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.213.212.91 (talk) 05:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaissance

message: I created  to be added to stubby articles. dab (ᛏ) 11:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: stub template

message: This article desperately needs some TLC. Bits and pieces from older versions are floating around. The later centuries are skimped on, and there is nothing at all after 1700. I've removed some dubious bits:
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What is the source for this assertion (which is AFAIK completely unfounded?) No one even knows what most of the terms mean, and none of them are German.
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This is wrong, makes no sense in context, and isn't even a sentence.
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This is really unclear. What is meant by semi-independent?
Megalophias —Preceding undated comment added 16:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some issues

message: I disagree with the emphasis placed on the SCA in the history of HEMA.  I think that it could be argued that the recreation of HEMA started with Alfred Hutton, and more recently from scholars like Sidney Anglo and martial artists like John Clements.  What are other's views on this? Sethwoodworth 21:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The SCA started doing this kind of thing about 30 years before ARMA was founded.  I agree that the research they did was spotty, but I think the text of the article reflects that.  Their role in providing a large body of practitioners has had an influence on the study of period fighting arts and many of the HEMA field's leading researchers and teachers came from this organization: Bob Charron, William Wilson, and Brian Price are just a few.  I don't think John Clements would be a good representation of the current trend in HEMA.  ARMA is a largely insular organization and you only need to read the John's books to discover that he has an axe to grind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.233.102.4 (talk) 01:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  I'm not a particular fan of ARMA but I still believe that they had a larger affect on HEMA than the SCA.  The only thing that the SCA started for historical medieval manuscript research is perhaps a subsection of the population that is prone to medievalism.  Maybe someone else started reading manuscripts before JC and interpreting them (somewhat) correctly.  I don't know who.  I agree that JC isn't a representation of current trends in HEMA, but neither is the SCA. Since 90% of the research and HEMA practice isn't legal in the SCA and the three names you mentioned have their own salle's and indipendent groups I would disupute that Charron, Wilson and Price are *in* the SCA, but do not practice or interpret HEMA through it primarily. It's more a question of emphasis than anything else, not an attempt to completely rewrite. Sethwoodworth 17:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SCA 

message: I cleaned out a lot of cruft from the external links section.  Martial arts pages are especially vulnerable to linkspam: I removed all links to individual clubs and forums, and left only two links that seem to actually be informational: one is a history, the other is the journal of western martial arts, which publishes articles about MA.  I will continue to monitor this page and remove these crufty links, but if people disagree that this should be done, we should have a discussion here.  Mangojuice 14:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: This is a pretty neat article over all.  I've added some information about this to the discussion at Talk:Rapier, but shouldn't there be more mention of fencing manuals and teachers here?  This rather large area of European fighting arts seems largely skipped over. --- Markspace 04:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fencing 

message: listing HEMA groups and societies, naturally the notability question arises. I'd say that any school founded prior to 1998 or so qualifies as notable for historical reasons, but the flurry of 2000s establishments makes clear that a school needs to meet some notability to be included. I do think all groups listed at present are arguably notable enough to be listed, but we'll have to be careful with future additions. dab (𒁳) 15:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh good lord, here we ago again. That is, since this post, there's been another mad scramble for every group with a website to add themselves to the schools section. Shouldn't the schools be a separate page? User:Marozzo —Preceding undated comment added 02:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't worry, this has pretty much become an open bulletin board for whomever knows how to edit a Wiki page.Marozzo (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

text: If you have looked closer you might have noticed that I removed all of the link farm, including the ARMA link.  I left the actual text talking about the role of John Clements and ARMA because they have play an extremely significant role in the reconstruction of our lost arts.Ranp (talk) 02:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability concerns

message: As I suggested and foreshadowed in the Notability section here, I have pursued option 1) above and cleaned up the "Reconstruction" portion of the HEMA article to: a) incorporate a good deal more specific, factual data and details about early research and researchers in the revival of HEMA (which is very heavily indebted to and reliant on the work of researchers such as Wassmannsdorf, Hergsell, Novati, Matthey, Jackson, Wierschin and Hils), and: b) remove references to specific modern schools of HEMA.
I think reference to multi-group, pan-country/region organizations and events is fine and meets sensible notions of non-partisanship and notability and to that end, I have included a reference to the Australian Federation which has been active (2003) almost as long as HEMAC, and the Australian Conventions which have been running since 1999, placing them alongside WMAW in terms of seniority.
I would ask that before anyone edits this version, they please foreshadow the proposed edits here on the talk page and refrain from incorporating references to a) specific, contemporary HEMA schools/groups or b) specific, contemporary personalities in HEMA or c) specific, contemporary approaches to HEMA (i.e. interpretive philosophies or assumptions). This article is about the *historical* systems and should remain that way. There is already a wiki page on modern Historical martial arts reconstruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_martial_arts_reconstruction) which covers contemporary, reconstructionism. (HEMA Gaukler (talk) 04:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reconstruction 

message: I have a bit of a problem with the section "Development of modern sports (1789 to 1914)".
There still existed martial arts then, but the title ignores this, and it is hardly mentioned at all.
Admittedly there was a trend towards more "combat" sport, and less martial art, but still.
There is one mention of this:
This is the only, brief, mention. Why isn't there more written on the arts, that had significance outside of sport?--213.113.53.13 (talk) 15:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Why isn't there more written? Because nobody had the necessary information so far. If you have quotable references on this, you are welcome to indicate them here and I will be happy to try and incorporate them. --dab (𒁳) 13:49, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flaw in the timeline 

message: What about adding some information on recent major European HEMA events: Dijon HEMAC Gathering (France), Dreynevent (Austria), FightCamp (UK), SWASH (UK), Swordfish (Sweden)? Ulrich von Lichtenstein (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major HEMA events 

message: It seems to me that in addition to Wiktenauer it might be appropriate to mention several other HEMA-related databases: Schola Gladiatoria's database, Hroarr's, Hungarian one at middleages.hu site etc. Ulrich von Lichtenstein (talk) 11:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Large HEMA databases 

message: This article is not about Historical European martial arts, but is about historical European martial arts. The former does indeed "refer" to something, the latter do not.
This is not Wiktionary. --95.34.149.128 (talk) 00:44, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: After rereading this remark at least twice it seems that the anonymous editor is right. Some examples: 
* "Korean martial arts are military practices and methods which have their place in the history of Korea but have been adapted for use by both military and non-military personal as a method of personal growth or recreation";
* "Chinese martial arts, popularly referred to as kung fu or gung fu, and also by the Mandarin Chinese term wushu, are a number of fighting styles that have developed over the centuries in China";
* "Japanese martial arts is the enormous variety of martial arts native to Japan". -- Ulrich von Lichtenstein (talk) 07:22, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use/mention error in article introduction 

message: This brand new HEMA publication, led by Dr. Mátyás Miskolczi aims to provide researchers willing to share their work with a publication platform.
Publication Board :
Brown, Scott (USA);
Jaquet, Daniel (CH);
Majár, János PhD (H);
Miskolczi, Mátyás PhD (H);
Waldmann, Szabolcs (H); Winter, Harald (A).
The first publication will be printed at the beginning of May, and it will be available during the XIIth International HEMA Gathering in Dijon (France).
You can read the abstracts of the articles here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18927715/APD2013.pdf 
Source: http://hemac-dijon.com/en/?page_id=356
-- Ulrich von Lichtenstein (talk) 16:02, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acta Periodica Duellatorum 

message: I don't see mentions of 
* english bare kncukles boxing - fist fighting martial art, ancestor of modern sport known as boxing
* French savate - martial art from France that originated as kicking martial art, and then mixed with fist techniques around XIX century
And many other surviving/extinct ways of fighting using fists and/or kicks.
195.150.224.69 (talk) 17:30, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing "kicking and boxing" styles 

message: For example, under «publications», who gets to be listed? I see there Rob Runacres, Reinier Van Noort or Guy Windsor, each (deservedly) among the most significant figures in the fields they study. However, I don't see Jens P. Kleinau, who is probably the most significant messer (and Kunst des Fechtens, generally) researcher out there, or Roland Warzecha, undisputedly the most well-know i.33 reference, or Ton Puey (disclaimer: he is a friend of mine) who is a world-level Verdadeira Destreza expert summoned to teach at international events several times each year... just to name a few. Mind you: I am not questioning Runacres', Noort's or Windsor's right to be listed. I am asking what the criteria is to add new people to that list? Gatonegro (talk) 14:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who gets to be listed? 

message: The «See Also» section lists «Spanish School of Swordmanship», «Italian School of Swordmanship» and «German School of Swordmanship». However, these terms recall the present nation-states of the same names (the three of them, incidentally, born in the XIX century), and not the areas where the respective martial arts were practiced and/or born (that is: the Iberian Peninsula, the Italic Peninsula and/or the Holy Roman Empire). Specifically: Fiore's homeland was part of the HRE until ~1450; many of the integrants of the «Society of Liechtenauer» who promoted the Kunst des Fechtens were from present-day Poland, Croatia or Slovenia (by then too part, or associated to, the HRE), whereas on the other hand under «German» swordmanship often are included styles such as the Nuremberg group which seem to be quite restricted to a small geographic area. Finally, Verdadeira Destreza (and Destreza Comum too) was practiced  in the whole Iberian Peninsula, not just present-day Spain (it actually developed independently in several aspects whenever Portugal was not under the same rule as the other kingdoms of the peninsula). I suggest we either change the names to the disciplines they refer to («Verdadeira Destreza», etc) or to more neutral geographic areas («Swords of Swordmanship of the Iberian Peninsula», «Swordmanship schools of the Holy Roman Empire» or «Kunst des Fechtens» or «Verdadeira Destreza», etc). Gatonegro (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listing HEMA traditions by their proper names 

message: — Assignment last updated by Avalon Elaine (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I added Esfinges as an Umbrella Group, as they are an ever-growing, international organization that is important to many members of the community. Avalon Elaine (talk) 20:11, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

text: I'm adding a reference to Ascalon Sword Festival under Events. Even without being part of the Arnold Sports Festival, it is one of the biggest tournaments in the United States. I also think there should be mention of sparring camps, which are less formal than tournaments and are growing in popularity in the HEMA community. Avalon Elaine (talk) 20:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

text: I'm going to add sources for Liechtenauer and some of the other masters. Avalon Elaine (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

text: Added citation for Mair. Avalon Elaine (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

text: Added a citation to the Ancient History section. Avalon Elaine (talk) 22:10, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

text: Added a photo to the section on the modern HEMA community. Avalon Elaine (talk) 22:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Communication Research