Talk:Beautiful Vision

message: With great dismay, I've had to go over the recent editing additions by editor User:Kitchen roll as there have been previous incidents of his misinterpretation and/or lack of comprehension of material that he is sourcing. He retired for the second time in September 2010, after similar editing errors on His Band and the Street Choir  that he was promoting to FA. But it seems like he has not made improvements on comprehension of material. He is also still inclined to stick in a sentence or two unrelated to the sourcing that follows other material. Agadant (talk) 19:56, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe this is a discussion of improvements to the article as it definitely is more verifiable now and not riddled with inferences, misinterpretations and editor's personal opinions and conclusions. I've had almost 3 years of arguments with the editor on our talk pages to no avail, so making a case for my reverts and changes on the article talk page seems the only recourse I have and thereby avoiding a prolonged battle on the article itself. I will list and go over the revisions I made to the article as I find a little time. Agadant (talk) 23:41, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This sentence was in the lead paragraph: "Beautiful Vision was the first album Morrison released that contained celtic influences." Is that a true fact? Well, of course not. This is not criticism but a valid question. How can an editor with 3 years experience and many books on Van Morrison put this in the article's lead? Not sarcasm at all, but a really serious question for Kitchen roll. If I have to go over each and every change I made it will take much more time than I currently have. Agadant (talk) 02:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Despite Morrison's reluctancy to have his concerts aired on TV - this was not sourced so therefore it ia a personal opinion of the editor. It may be true or he may think that it is but that doesn't matter. Agadant (talk) 03:09, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

text: By putting material on Coulter's visit as the only material in a section headed BACKGROUND, this placed a significance on the visit as the main influence on the album or it would therefore be implied and taken as such by readers. In the book referenced there was not a date given for the visit all that was stated was "in the wake of Donall Corvin and Bobby Sands, Phil Coulter visited Morrison in California." Yet the entry I removed said: "Before Morrison started work on Beautiful Vision his friend...Phil Coulter, came to visit him in California." Then it went on to give details of the visit: playing traditional Irish music, visiting an Irish bar (but Coulter is from Northern Ireland and an Irish musician so this is not necessarily significant to the album.) I don't know if this visit influenced Morrison and the album, only he does, but many other influences are given in biographies and reviews, in the lyrics and in the music: his Danish girlfriend, his Belfast boyhood, Alice Bailey's writings. Yes, Irish music and his celtic heritage played a role in the making of the album but Coulter's visit should not be singled out and put in a Background section. Agadant (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

text: "These recordings were dropped because Morrison wanted to take the album in a different direction.": The source page given does not state this. Actually, it implies that the material changed course somewhat but just as a happenstance not by deliberate intention of Morrison: "Some of the material [on BV] when it started, was more traditional. Some of the songs... they started basically as folk-oriented stufff and... ended up being integrated as folk/R&B." And another remark by Heylin on the page: As he later admitted, Morrison failed to retain the purity of the song ditto a few other things written with a similar mood in mind." and "Some... were not revisited when the sessions evolved into that something else." It is just misleading to put this in the article. If something is not clear in the book material, it is not our job to form an opinion and state it as a sourced one. This can take the article (i.e. what happened on HBATSC with this editor) into being an opinion piece instead of a verifiable account of important information about it.Agadant (talk) 10:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing revisions and removal of inaccuracies