Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/Archive 4

message: Andries, you need to discuss the changes first, before editing the article. I am giving you advance notice of my intentions. You should do the same, as was agreed in mediation. SSS108 talk-email 20:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not remember this agreement. I thought that it only applied for deleting material with a 48 hours time to provide sources. Andries 20:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I do not mind linking to another website with the footage, but I do not know any. Andries 20:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Some of the materializations have been shown on TV such as the BBC the lingam regurgitation and in the 1995 TV documentary "Guru Busters" by UK's Channel 4. So at least some of the footage of the materializarions has been referred to and published by reputable sources. Andries 21:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It is my intention to change the number of estimated followers for SSB from 3 - 10 million to 3 - 50 million. Mick Brown, in the Divine Downfall interview said that SSB has an estimated (up to) 50 million devotees. Therefore, I am going to use this source as a reference for the new estimated number of followers. SSS108 talk-email 16:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I made a miscalculation on the above numbers. Instead of saying "3-50 milion", I put "10-50 million" because 10 million is the total figure given on the Adherents site. 3 million is a partial estimation that only accounts for Indian adherents. I gave the total figure, not a partial one. SSS108 talk-email 16:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed Sources II

message: I gave this article a neutrality warning because of witholding the reader the chance to see footage of materializations. The materializations are crucial for the SSB article. Andries 20:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I think this article requires a neutrality warning for other reasons. Again, you are attempting to force your POV by linking to your Anti-Sai Site. SSS108 talk-email 20:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality warning

message: Andries and SSS108, The article currently has two systems of references/footnotes in use.  The footnote/reference numbers are duplicated because of the use of two systems and the result is quite confusing.  Please take some time to fix these.  --BostonMA 14:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Andries, this is your mess. Clean it up :-) SSS108 talk-email 17:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Done, finally, there is still a lot to be improved in the references, but they are now all in the new format. Andries 09:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!! --BostonMA 15:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please fix footnotes/references 

message: :Image:Sathya_Sai_Baba.jpg cannot be used in this article. Fair use of cover art applies to an article about the book, CD or DVD only, and not applicable to an article about the subject of these works. See  Wikipedia:Fair_Use#Images. ≈ jossi  ≈ t • @ 23:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not fair use image 

message: Regarding the comment: "former follower Welsh pianist David Bailey, claim that these materializations are done by sleight of hand and say that this can be verified with videos available on the internet", I am going to remove the section "and say that this can be verified with videos available on the internet" (unless it can be referenced by reputable sources). I am also going to insert David Bailey's former claims (from his books) in which he testified to viewing first hand miraculous manifestions in which jappamalas and rings and watches manifested "in mid air" before his eyes. And yes, instead of just referencing the book, I am going to type the entire reference out, just like Andries likes to do. SSS108 talk-email 02:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coming Edits For David Bailey 

message: (I will be moving all the Trouw related discussion here)
:I am also disputing the following Trouw Reference. Not only was this article translated by an Anti-Sai Activist, there is no way to verify it. It does not have a link to it's original source and I cannot accept Ever's translation. Also, I don't know what this article has to do with the alleged fall in numbers of adherents. SSS108 talk-email 20:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I admit that the translation by the Dutch American Ella Evers is not good as I already wrote. The article states that there have been many defections "Hundreds of Dutch devotees did the same tearing up all the Sai Baba photos  off the walls and throwing out his books." Here is the Dutch original [ Andries 21:00, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I do think that these comments are informative. Andries 21:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It is my intention to remove the following: "In Nordic countries and the Netherlands, numbers fell after 2000, including an article in the Dutch newspaper Trouw." (along with the Trouw reference). I suggest we remove this reference for several reasons: 1) It misleads readers into thinking that there is a reputable souce that supports the claim of defection among Nordic Countries when it does not, and 2) This claim is based on an anonymous person's comments and not factual data. If Andries disagrees, then I suggest we take it to mediation and hopefully Andries will answer the outstanding questions that he has thus far refused to answer. I also ask that if Andries does not want to participate in mediation, or answer the mediation questions, instead of maintaining silence, he needs to openly declare that he does now want to participate. SSS108 talk-email 21:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not voiced by Leo (whose real name I know by the way) but by the journalist Koert van der Velde. The article by Mick Brown wrote that the Central Group in Sweden closed down. I changed Nordic countries into Sweden. I admit that I made the mistake of thinking that many defections is the same as less followers. Which is not necessarily the case as many new followers may join, though I do not believe that this is the case in practice at all. Andries 21:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the journalist Koert van der Velde did probably not do an extensive empirical study on the nr. of devotees in the Netherlands. Nevertheless, the journalist  wrote the statement of many defections down as a fact and was right. Andries 05:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I propose re-wording the statement about the defections in the Netherlands in the article as attributed opinions to the Dutch journalists of the two newspapers. There was another newspapers that also who wrote about the defections in the Netherlands. Andries 05:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trouw 

message: Andries, are you willing to accept the introductory paragraphs as I edited them, or are you wanting to revert it? Do we need BostonMA to resolve our differences with this section or not? It will save him much time if we agree on the edits. SSS108 talk-email 16:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I do not accept current lead section, that again should not be an introduction, but a summary of the whole article. Andries 16:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: yes, if BostonMA's wants to. We give him so much work. I think it is better that we first both make good proposals. My preliminary proposal of the Wikipedia:lead section is at User:Andries/Sathya_Sai_BabaAndries 20:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: For the record: Andries, I like the way you agree to mediation to resolve our differences of opinion, regarding the introduction and other things, and then you botch the entire process by reverting the article back to your version before we have even engaged in mediation. You don't even allow the mediator a day's respite to respond. But when it comes to you, you make everyone wait weeks. SSS108 talk-email 14:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introductory Paragraphs