Talk:Klingon language/Archive 1

message: Moved from the article:
(The value of "S" and "tlh" is not certain; can someone confirm or correct?)
--cprompt 07:35, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "S" and "tlh"

message: This article contends that Doohan is a linguist and came up with Vulcan and Klingon dialogue for ST-TMP.  If true, surely there should be at least passing reference to this here? Quill 09:08, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm really not sure how much credence to give to this claim. Nevertheless, James Doohan was certainly skilled with dialects and accents, which I believe is why he made up some phrases for the Klingons and the Vulcans on Star Trek to say. thefamouseccles 09:56, 05 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: A linguist is not somebody who know a lot of languages or dialects, but somebody who knows a lot about language in general. If you study linguistics at university, the purpose is not to learn lots of languages but what languages have in common or what sets them apart, how they came to be as they are, what they might become, how they influence and are influenced by each other and how language is stored and computed in the brain. Doohan was not a linguist but certainly was good with accents and dialects of English. --Kaleissin 14:25:19, 2005-08-19 (UTC), who incidentally is a linguist
Detailed reading will bring out that Doohan created specifically the Klingon words spoken by Mark Lenard as the Klingon Commander in Star Trek the Motion Picture.  This included things like >cha'< and other things you can transcribe if you like.  Marc Okrand wisely used ALL of it when he developed the full language... so Doohan only created the "style" by the few words he developed.  Okrand is responsible for 99.9% of it... but indeed Doohan did get the ball rolling.  The Vulcan issue is different.  Originally the Vulcan scenes were scripted in Vulcan (devised by Doohan, we're told)... but then they decided to not use subtitles, so the actors instead spoke stilted English.  Then they changed their mind again: so now similar sounding 'new' Vulcan words were fitted to the actor's lip movements from speaking English.  So, I don't think Doohan's original Vulcan made it in, however he probably assisted in devising the 'new'.  He was a dialect and accent expert.  But he definitely did precede Okrand on beginning Klingon. --Sturmde 03:46, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[James Doohan]] 

message: I'd like to see some discussion of whether Klingon is a real language or not - Did its creators come up with a full vocabulary and grammar, or is it just a rough outline? -Dtcdthingy 21:21, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would we need to discuss that? The article seems fairly clear about it, including noting that it had been used to translate Shakespeare and Gilgamash.--Prosfilaes 03:19, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extent? 

message: It's listed as 'tlh' but the wikipedia article does not give tlh as the code for Klingon. In fact, tlh does not appear to exist... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.178.110.53 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 21 October 2005.
: It's not ISO 631, ISO 639; and I don't know what list you're looking at, but it does indeed exist if you check Wikipedia's list or the official list.--Prosfilaes 13:42, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ISO 631 code

message: How can toDsaH be a Klingon word? The letter s is not listed in the phonology section. 193.171.121.30 14:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letters used in Klingon words 

message: How is vowel stress handled in Klingon? Is this something that should be addressed? --Funkmaster 801 07:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The info is at Klingonska Akademien; I will add it. -Alpha Omicron 21:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stress in Klingon vowels. 

message: How can Worf be a Klingon name when Klingon does not have an F sound?  Is this dialectal Klingon? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.210.229.96 (talk • contribs) 27 October 2006.
:The name "Worf" was created before Paramount/Okrand have developped Klingon. Also many other names like Kruge, Grilka, B'Ellana, Kahless, etc. are not valid words in the Klingon language. They were later "retranscribed" into the Klingon syllable system. Thus, Worf becomes wo'rIv, Grilka ghIrIlqa' and Kruge Qugh. For B'Ellana there's not standard spelling (yet), as far as I know. — N-true 21:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Name Worf when Klingon has no f sound?

message: Can somebody add that the characters in Daddy Long Legs used this language? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.168.220.193 (talk) 02:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia 

message: As for the Klingon Interpreter thing...
"http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/05/10/offbeat.klingon.interpreter/index.html"
Where is the source that says it was taken out of context? WhisperToMe 09:31, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See this page, currently linked in the "Language" section of the article. --Lph 15:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hospital Klingon Interpreter story

message: Why are the links to Klingon Wikipedia not treated as interwiki links (i.e. they appear in the message body rather than in the "other languages" box? e.g. tlh:tlhIngan Hol Ausir 20:04, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Klingon interwiki links are not allowed on any Wikipedia as a result of a compromise on the mailing list. Angela. 13:41, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  The link is stuck onto the end of the same line as the last external link (currently Klingon Rock). Is there any way to force it to appear on its own line? --Lph 18:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I see it has been moved to the "See also" section. --Lph 15:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interwiki links

message: Someone proposed to merge these two articles. Frankly, I don't think that's a good idea. It's two completely different languages we're talking about, and the notability of Klingonaase can hardly be disputed. --IJzeren Jan 17:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The Klingon language section would not be improved by the merge, and the Klingonaase would suffer too. --80.202.221.146 14:05, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Disagree. Ford wasn't canon, but there's an argument for it: he used a different transliteration system, like the difference between Pinyin & Wade-Giles. No?  Trekphiler 15:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed.  They really are two different languages, though Klingon fans are fond of both. ••• Trekphiler, the difference is not only transliteration, but also vocabulary.  First came James Doohan's short Klingon commands (in the first movie, 1979); those helped inspire John M. Ford's Klingonaase (1984) and Marc Okrand's tlhIngan Hol (1984), but these two versions developed independently of each other.  ••• As an alternative, consider making Klingon language a central or disambiguation page, leading to separate pages for tlhIngan Hol (which now is only a redirect) and Klingonaase (pretty much as is). -- SAJordan 13:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think Klingon language should be a disambiguation page. It's a lot like the issue for Italian language; there are many languages natively spoken in Italy, but there's only one known as Italian. There's two Klingon languages, but one is known as Klingon and the other is known by Klingonaase. Furthermore, the Klingon language is well-defined, well-known and publicized, whereas Klingonaase is not well-defined, not canon, and is limited to two books by John M. Ford and a long out of print roleplaying game. Even if it were known as the Klingon language, I'd push for a disambig tag at the top of this page, not a full disambig page.--Prosfilaes 14:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "There's two Klingon languages..." — My point precisely. That's why the Klingon language page should disambiguate, list and link to each (at unambiguously named pages), not be about just one of them. ••• "... but one is known as Klingon and the other is known as Klingonaase." — That "one" is known unambiguously as tlhIngan Hol, just as the "other" is known unambiguously as klingonaase.  Each should be discussed in detail at  a page using its unambiguous name.  At present, the "one" is not, only the "other" is.  This is inconsistent structuring. -- SAJordan 05:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Here's a quick-and-dirty Google check on "Klingon language" with any of (klingonaase, John M. Ford, FASA, Final Reflection) minus (tlhingan, Okrand, Wikipedia), yielding 463 hits right now — just to show that "Klingon language" often refers to klingonaase.  I will cheerfully agree that the inverse search, for "Klingon language" with any of (tlhingan, Okrand) minus (klingonaase, etc.), would get many more hits, i.e. "Klingon language" more often refers to tlhIngan Hol.  The point is that both languages are called "Klingon language".  Wikipedia is supposed to describe, not prescribe; and to give a neutral point of view, not take one side of a controversy — even if one side's more popular than the other.  In this case, I think neutrality means making Klingon language a disambiguation page, neutrally listing and linking to both languages, rather than assigning it to just one of them and thereby excluding the other. -- SAJordan 06:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The disambiguation topic is continued below. -- SAJordan 20:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with [[Klingonaase]]?

message: The article all of a sudden mentions that d'Armond Speers raised a child in a bilingual English/Klingon environment. Who's d'Armond Speers and what's the relevance? There needs to be some sort of explanation in the article. Theshibboleth 18:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The relevance is there is a native speaker of Klingon.--Prosfilaes 02:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "native speaker of Klingon"? What's he, Kang's half-brother?  Trekphiler 15:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Rather, that it could have been... =S It seems the baby gave up Klingon when he realized his father could understand English. 85.226.122.205 17:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally think it was terrible for them to manipulate their child like that. -Unknownwarrior33 23:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why you think so? Did he try to raise up his child in Klingon only? I think he raised the child bilingually from the start,  which is not a disadvantage for the child. --N-true 00:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bilingually from the start, yes. He spoke only in Klingon and the baby's mother spoke only in English, if memory serves. • WarpFlyght (talk) 01:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Not anymore. The article about Dr. Speers is now a redirect to this article. The text about him was in fact moved here from its previous version. In other words, I'm gonna undo your edit if you don't mind. —IJzeren Jan  Uszkiełtu? 17:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's cool. I didn't think to check to see if it was a redirect. Mabey It would be better to have a section of notable speakers with just a few sentences about each. Alpha Omicron 18:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who's d'Armond Speers? 

message: Am I the only one left who mourns for the representation of Klingons in John Ford's brilliant ST novel "The Final Reflection"?  Its portrayal of Klingon family life, society, and language are thoughtful, philosophical, and ring very true to me.  It saddened me very deeply when, starting with the first ST movie, and continuing with TNG, those handling ST's future decided to throw away this fine effort, and go with a much more brutal and crude culture for what I always saw as cultured (if backstabbing) adversaries.
I'm aware that some will point out that Paramount has declared the Pocket Books novels to be non-canon.  This issue of canon has always confused me, as I don't see the point; ST is already rife with parallel universe, why not just believe in whichever version has the episodes and stories you like, and treat the others as being from the Dimension of Bad TV Writers? *cough* Spock's Brain *cough* Canon it's not, but doesn't Ford's effort at least deserve a mention?
-Kasreyn 07:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Klingonaase has it's own article. --Funkmaster 801 19:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But is unlinked from the main article.  Perhaps I could add a link under See Also, to "Klingonaase, an earlier, non-canonical Klingon language put forth by author John M. Ford"?  Would that work?  -Kasreyn 05:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sure that would work or put it under trivia --Funkmaster 801 06:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

text: ... or under "See also". Generally, I agree Klingonaase should be mentioned somewhere in this article. —IJzeren Jan  In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij 06:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  How's it look?  -Kasreyn 08:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! —IJzeren Jan  In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij 08:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  John M. Ford and "Klingonaase":  forgotten?