Talk:Ayrton Senna/Archive 1

message: The image on this page has been removed for suspected breach of copyright. Unless copyright status is clarified within one week, the image will be deleted from wikipedia. Any attempt to reinstate the image before copyright status is clarified will be reported and may be judged a banable offence by wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtdirl (talk • contribs) 02:14, 19 June 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Initial text

message: Why was this paragraph removed?
:"Before his death, Senna had intended to move to the USA after retiring from Formula 1. He had expressed interest in competing in both Indy Car and NASCAR racing."
Although it wasn't substantiated by a reference, neither is any of the rest of the article, so it doesn't seem like it should have been removed to me. SamH 10:36, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Content removed

message: This article is as "hagiographic" as any I've seen. Yuck. NPOV, please.
:Agreed.  This article provides no perspective on the other side of Ayrton Senna - a foulmouthed, selfish system gamer who ushered in a new and reprehensible era in F1.  No mention made of his "incredible control of the car" used to take his teammate Alain Prost out of the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix when Prost threatened to overtake him in the points standing.  Sure, he died on the track - does that mean we have to violate NPOV?  See Dale Earnhardt Sr. for an example of an evenhanded bio of a multifaceted racer.  -ikkyu2 (talk) 21:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "hagiographic"

message: This article reeks of POV and weasel words/phrases.  I don't really know a lot about F1 racing, so hopefully the following things can be addressed by someone more knowledgable:
*He is regarded by many as one of the greatest racers ever. — Weasely.  Use some statistics, or point to a poll done by a highly regarded professional group.
*he remains one of the most beloved Formula One personalities — opinion.
*He was accused of introducing a "video game" mentality of "win at all costs" into the sport, a legacy that was repeated often in the career of his successor, Michael Schumacher. — Can we back this up with some facts, some news stories perhaps?  I'm aware a lot of people dislike Schumacher, so this is probably true, but without a reference it just seems like a dis.
*Senna demonstrated his exceptional wet driving skills by humiliating his opponents at the wheel of an inferior car. — References?  What made his car inferior?  Plus, I don't like the use of the word "humiliating" here.  
*Many books have been written on the life and death of this legendary driver who continues to be an inspiration to millions. — Weasely and POV. 
CryptoDerk 17:34, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)''
The words phrases you mention, although at first seem to be POV, actually approach common knowledge status in the world of Formula One. Aytron Senna was known, and is therefore described quite frequently using the above five (and more) phrases.
He is regarded by many as one of the greatest racers ever. — Weasely. Use some statistics, or point to a poll done by a highly regarded professional group. 
The Formula One hall of fame is not that large, only a handful of names are considered "greats". Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Moss, Senna, Prost, etc. As with any sport there are frequent debates among experts (in Automotive magazines, etc) of the best all round driver to have lived. Senna has been known to top these polls. Although I cannot give you an exact date, "F1 Magazine" (considered a leading reputable F1 magazine) had a vote by leading journalists and drivers recently which Senna topped. The fact that Senna is frequently regarded as the best ever driver can also be simply seen from crudely looking at google hits. The phrase "he ain't no Senna", "The new Senna?" or "Sennaesque" are examples. The fact remains that no other driver has been exemplified to this level. 
I will try to explain why this is later.
And I have seen F1 Racing voting Jim Clark as the best ever a couple of years ago! So who is the best ever then? I don't think that really means anything how magazines vote. Whatever they vote, they don't make it a fact that he was the best ever  80.98.174.230 15:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Senna's brilliance is not in Q to anybody who ever watched him race. Those who know compare him to Jim Clark & Fangio, who are icons in GP/F1. Senna did not seem to know the meaning of "slow" (& I'm convinced it hurt his early career, by driving weak cars too hard). Monaco '84 is rightly a legend. It is not supposed to be possible to gain at 4sec/lap there, let alone in the rain, let alone coming from the back of the grid. Senna did all 3. And he was consistently quicker in the rain than everyone else, something only a handful of drivers (notably Caracciola) ever do: recall, only some 70 drivers have ever won an F1/GP event. In such an exclusive club, it's pretty hard to be called "legendary". Senna is. Mention him in the same breath with Fangio, Clark, & Michael, you'll get no argument from any fan; the only Q is, can you rank any of them above the others? I never saw Fangio or Clark, & as good as Michael is, Senna was more exciting to watch--& that's pure POV.  Trekphiler 09:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Er yes, just returning to the article for a moment.. 86.16.223.203 12:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Horrible POV

message: Removed: "the greatest driver ever" POV
Removed: "Ruthless driver" POV
"I don't think there's much dispute that Senna was ruthless, any more than that he was talented."
Ruthless, in "a ruthless driver (period)" (as you suggest) is synonymous with cruel, callous, merciless, unfeeling and heartless. These are not descriptive of Senna nor a summary of his general driving style. An appropriate word would be "tough". 
In addition to this the Mclaren career section has always included:
"On the track Senna could be ruthless."
But by all means lets stick to the description given by Senna's arch rival Alain Prost in his only interview given on the subject:
"Hmmm, yes, Senna was very tough in that way, from the start. Actually, one thing I really believe now is that it wasn't so much a matter of being that tough as having his own rules. He had them, he believed in them, and that was it."
Link: http://www.prostfan.com/senna2.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gold333 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, being a ruthless competitive driver isnt synonymous with "cruel, callous, merciless, unfeeling and heartless", it has a different context and a different meaning. --Bastion 05:37, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits of Oct 2005

message: Why is there no mention of the missing 1.6 seconds of videotape (look at http://www.cineca.it/sap/files/mpeg/out5.mpeg to see the part missing) and of the prosecutions allegations that the black box was damaged after the accident to remove all the telemetry?
"Fabrizio Nosco, the engineer who removed the two black boxes from Senna’s car after the crash, testified that “apart from a few scratches both boxes looked to be intact.”
Passarini said that Senna’s data recorder contained 20 memory chips, but only two were damaged. The two being those whose data would have been retained even when the power supply failed."
--Bastion 04:56, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Black Box

message: I am the author of major sections of this article. (Intro, wet weather, death, character, legacy, etc) If you have any comments or questions please mail me.
teamno1@(nospamming)yahoo.com
(remove the nospamming)
~Emre — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gold333 (talk • contribs) 14:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reach the author 

message: A million people lined the streets. But of which city? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philsy (talk • contribs) 11:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sao paulo!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.3.193 (talk) 01:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lined the streets

message: Do we know for sure that the Austrian flag Senna had in his car the day he died was found to be bloodsoaked?  I don't recall much blood being evident, and it just smacks of sensationalism.  Any proof of it? Bretonbanquet 01:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bloodsoaked flag 

message: I don't know why someone deleted the Categories for Ayrton Senna, the External links section and the Champions' infobox. Since lots of edits are done of this article, I could not identify the author(it's a hard work). Anyways, I restored those parts. I kindly ask people not to delete some part of the article without consensus. Mxcatania 14:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maintenance 

message: In 1992 at Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium when during Friday free practise Erik Comas had crashed heavily on the back straight other drivers drove past the wreckage at high speed. Senna could be seen jumping out of his car and while endangering his own life, sprinting down the track to the wrecked car to reach inside and hit the electrics kill switch, to prevent a possible fire.
I have two TV clips of the incident which I belive happened at the Blanchimont. It looks like Senna is the first car to arrive at the crash. The first car after Senna isn't shown until he has just passed the wreck, but unless he reduced the speed after passing the wreck he was relativly slow when passing it. The following cars can be seen go by slowly. Still a dangerous thing to do though. The footage isn't 100% conclusive, but close enough IMHO. /Kakis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.146.194 (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Very small correction?

message: I fixed the first quote entry of this section, to match his exact words from the press conference. Conquerer 19:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Quotes 

message: I replaced the image in the infobox which was copyright (claimed fairuse) with a different freely licenced image. This was changed to a different copyrighted image so I have reverted to the freely licenced image, [:Image:Ayrton Senna Imola 1989 Cropped.jpg]. Wikipedia guidelines state that this kind of image is preferable to copyrighted image, and as Copyrighted images are only Fair Use when no freely licenced alternative is available that claim may not be valid anyway. Alexj2002 11:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, but that racesuit will make the average reader assume he drove for Ferrari. The Dunnie
Even though "Honda" is clearly visible on the front of the driving suit and right underneath that picture his teams are listed. Conquerer 00:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image in infobox

message: There are three 'citation needed' tags in the lead. Just to comment that I believe it is acceptable not to reference facts in the lead - the reason being that the lead should only summarise the content of the article, so any facts in the lead should appear elsewhere in the article and should be referenced there. I think it looks neater this way - and reduces repetition as well. Cheers. --4u1e 20:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: This article is just pure with fancruft and reads like an memorial page, badly unsourced and severe WP:OWN issues in the article to remove the fact tags, and to readd the copyrighted images. This article needs help. Please see WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:CITE, WP:EL and many other policies before reverting. 216.189.165.232 03:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It may well do - that is no justification for replacing it with nonsense. Please discuss your changes. -- Ian Dalziel 23:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cruft 

message: where did all the images off this article go? they almost all appear to of been deleted, why is this so? --Dan027 11:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Just a note by way of explanation about the removal of the line in the first paragraph by user "Ernham".  I reverted it once but he keeps changing it back.  He's done it to several other articles as well, and engaged in personal attacks on Talk:Michael Schumacher.  No doubt it'll be resolved soon enough, if it hasn't been already. Bretonbanquet 04:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First paragraph

message: Sorry to put such a farfetched suggestion, but I believe Senna had Asperger Syndrome. Having it myself, and knowing the attributes of an Aspie, I have found the following reasons why he *might* of had it:
*His ability to recall what his car was doing: this includes previous seasons;
*his ability to concentrate on just one thing (see fourth paragraph here);
*plus this paragraph:
:"Ruthless and frequently misunderstood, Senna often did his best to hide a softer, highly emotional and compassionate side behind a self-constructed shell of aloofness and aggression. Yet this was the man who wept for Roland Ratzenberger and who, on the day of his own death, planned in victory to wave the Austrian flag as a tribute to his fallen contemporary." 
suggests that to me that Senna had Asperger Syndrome.
I do admit that this isn't documented, but fact is that Asperger Syndome hadn't been fully aware of until this millenium. But I'd agree that just these points are not enough and so I'll try and find a few more pieces of evidence.--Skully Collins 14:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be right for all I know, but I don't think the theory would last long in the article, as it will always be speculation. Dw290 12:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess your right. One can only speculate, just some of these things seem just too "aspie" like. Anyway, no problem, it was just a suggestion.--Skully Collins Edits 15:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asperger Syndrome? 

message: Isn't the IPA pronunciation wrong? I thought the "Ay" should have a double sound - as the previous description suggested. -- Ian Dalziel 06:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's wrong; I corrected it. His first name is pronounced ahy-ur-tuhn ("ahy" as in eye), not air-tuhn. Conquerer 01:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation? 

message: "Michael Schumacher attended his grave in 1995, but denied having done so just before his final race before retirement at Interlagos. However, he did attend the grave before his final Grand Prix."
This wording is very confusing -- what is it saying? Schumacher attended his grave in 1995 but in 2006 denied that he did attend his grave in 1995, or he denied visiting his grave before Interlagos in 2006? The next sentence seems to hint the former, however this directly contradicts the first few words of the first sentence. If the latter, however, there's still another contradiction. Perhaps whoever updated this simply forgot to add "It was reported" or something like at the beginning, but anyway, someone please clean this up -- someone who knows about this. Conquerer 01:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To the best of my recollection Schumacher explicitly denied having visited the grave in 2006 when asked directly. If anyone has a copy of Autosport that covers the Interlagos race, I think Mark Hughes did his comment column on it. 4u1e 15:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schumacher Visiting Senna's Grave 

message: I've rated this article as B-class. Good coverage, but no references and could use work on the writing esp. NPOV. 4u1e 15:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's literally nothing more than my opinion by the way. If other editors disagree there's nothing to prevent them changing the assessment in the F1 project box above. GA and FA obviously require external assessment. 4u1e 22:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class

message: Several anons have been reducing the size of the "Complete F1 Results" table, which severely impairs visibility. I've been reverting, but just realized maybe it's not displaying properly on some people's computers? I would appreciate other opinions on this, just to make sure I'm not reverting valid edits. Fvasconcellos 19:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table size 

message: There's some serious original research in the bit on the 1989 race in Japan - much has been written on this, it can easily be re-written as a neutral fact based account, rather than the current argument! 4u1e 20:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suzuka 1989 

message: You people have destroyed this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.241.121 (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits

message: Can we have a portrait picture of Ayrton Senna instead of the one showing him at Imola 1989? I think this would further enhance the article's introduction.
Bag of marbels 28 18:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portrait Photograph 

message: In F1, wet weather racing is considered to be a great equaliser.
I thought this sentence would be confusing to people who don't already know what it means, so I have changed it to:  In F1, wet weather racing is considered to be a great equaliser of cars; that is, the driver makes more of a difference.
--Tedd 01:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rain as Equaliser 

message: I'm confused about the claim that Senna's 65 poles from 161 races (= 0.404 poles/race) is a "record". It's neither the highest number of poles (that's 68, held by Schumacher), not the highest average poles/race (Fangio has 29 from 52 = 0.557 poles/race and Clark has 33 from 73 = 0.452 poles/race). It's certainly an impressive achievement, but I don't see how it's a "record". DH85868993 14:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I agree you now. It's a impressive mark, 0.404 poles/races over 100 races! But it is not a standard record. I will revert again. Rictad 16:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Senna's pole "record" 

message: It's stated in the article that senna jumped out to see if he could help at zanardi's crash but it doesn't appear so in this youtube video. It looks like he crashed too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ciShahtWGRU
:Looks like he approached much too fast under double waved yellows and crashed himself. Andretti arrived ahead of him and slowed down in plenty of time. Other clips on Youtube do show him going to the wrecked Lotus to investigate, but that's not quite what is implied by the current words. 4u1e 19:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've deleted it as not really being what wasimplied. I've also ref'd the previous para on a similar, but much more relevant, incident at Spa the year before. 4u1e 19:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zanardi crash and Senna 

message: I'm not too happy with this appearing in the succession box. What kind of "Sporting Position" is that? Is there a trophy? -- Ian Dalziel 10:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formula One Fatal Accidents 

message: in the results section i see the Hart engine described as a V6? this is not true, the engine was a L4 !!
Trulli 11:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Good pickup. Thanks. DH85868993 11:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hart engine a V6 ??? 

message: I noticed there were some recent disagreement on this from the edit page.  The Official Formula 1 page  has a complete archive of F1 results.  This clearly shows that the 2002 US Grand Prix had a closer FINISH (0.011 s) - however I would argue that as the top 2 drivers stage managed the finish (they were certainly not racing each other) it could be argued that this was one of the closest finishes rather than the closest races!  The 1971 Italian Grand Prix had a gap of 0.01s between the top 2 and just 0.61s between the top 5 - however whilst there is no doubt that this was an incredibly close race timings in those days were only to the nearest 1/100th of a second (compared to the nearest 1/1000th in Senna's era and today), therefore in terms of the gap between the first 2 we cannot really be certain where The 1971 Italian race falls in the top 3.  (It was easily the closest race ever as far as the top 5 were concerned though).  I will therefore edit the page to say "one of the closest races" - hope this is an acceptable compromise?  Kelpin 17:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Third Closest Grand Prix Finish

message: This element of the Trivia section:
* In 1993, Senna bought a Mercedes-Benz 600SL for personal use in Brazil, and registered it in Porto Alegre, the capital city of Rio Grande do Sul, some 800km from Sao Paulo city, in order that he could obtain a number plate with the letters "CSE". The letters and numbers spelt : CSE 8888 (Champion SEnna 1988).
has been questioned by  200.219.132.20 who wrote:
* (doubtful - licence plates beginning with "C" letter are issued in São Paulo state, not Rio Grande do Sul)
I've added a  tag. DH85868993 01:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just removed - i did a cursory glance and saw no mention of this in "major media" and don't know how it enhances the article at all. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  01:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Licence plate 

message: Hello, I noticed a huge mistake in Ayrton Senna article: the cropped image of "Ayrton Senna" is actually Alain Prost! 
You can see Senna on the left when you open the whole picture of the three men on the podium. Can this be fixed quickly, thank you!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.64.21.200 (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, no. There isn't a single photo of Prost anywhere on the page. Pyrope 17:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Huge mistake?

message: Why does he have a special page for himself with his records? StandNThrow (talk) 13:52, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Which "special page" are you referring to? (If you mean List of achievements by Ayrton Senna, it was recently nominated for deletion and is now just a redirect to Ayrton Senna). DH85868993 (talk) 14:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: A special page for Ayrton Senna?

message: Why did AS race under his maternal and not his paternal name? This is unusual, isn't it? His rival Nelson Piquet happened to do the same thing but for a reason as the WP article tells. It would be interesting for the reader to learn why Senna did it too. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen mentioned in documentaries etc that da Silva is quite frequently found in Brazil and Ayrton chose a more unique name when he began to rise through the racing ladder, having used the da Silva name early in his career. Britmax (talk) 12:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

text: I think this is because of the Portuguese and as a consequence of that Brazilian naming customs. In Brazil a child receives two family names at birth. This combination is formed by the first,maternal family names of both parents. In Ayrton's case Senna originates from his maternal grandmother, da Silva from his paternal grandmother. In Portuguese and Brazilian naming customs the maternal family names are the more important ones and are the ones that are passed through many generations. This explains why Ayrton's nephew Bruno's family name is Senna too even though he is the son of Ayrton's sister. By our naming customs Bruno would have received his father's family name only and would be named Bruno Lalli. In reality, by Brazilian naming customs, it is Bruno Senna Lalli with his maternal name being the more important one and by the most commonly used one.  Tvx1 (talk) 18:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are offering personal guesswork. Go and read the Portuguese name page. This indicates that there is no increased importance placed on either the maternal or paternal name, unlike Spanish naming customs which strongly promote the paternal name, although the most common practice is to simplify the surname string to the last (i.e. paternal) name. However, this is not universal and in practice it is up to the individual as to how they use their surnames on anything other than legal documents. Ayrton Senna da Silva did indeed choose to use "Senna" as it was less common and I assume that Bruno did likewise. He may also have wanted to honour his uncle, with the added benefit that a yellow helmeted "Senna" was a much brighter sponsorship prospect than a "Lalli", but this is the sort of speculation that desperately needs a reliable source attached. Pyrope 19:57, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You do realize that Bruno received his family name Senna Lalli well before it was known whether there was any sponsorship prospect in having "another yellow-helmeted Senna", do you?. Bruno was even born before his uncle even took part in his first Grand Prix. He was named Senna Lalli, and not da Silva Pereira, in accordance with Brazilian naming customs. Likewise Ayrton was named Senna da Silva and not da Silva Guirado. Tvx1 (talk) 21:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The comment was about which single name he chose to use when racing. That was not decided until a very long time after his birth. You really ought to read comments more carefully. Pyrope 20:22, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "Senna" and not "da Silva"? 

message: Britmax - Please do not revert changes unless you can actually think up a valid reason for doing so.
1. Senna's car did not leave the track as it entered the corner, like Gerhard Berger in 1989. It was a long corner and he was almost at the exit. What Murray Walker said is irrelevant, even if it wasn't - he didn't attempt to take it only after he had already negotiated most of it, as John Watson said in the Eurosport broadcast, 3/4 of the way through.
2. It did not leave the track at 191mph. Telemetry shows it left the racing line at 191mph, after which Senna immediately jumped on the brakes and slowed the car down before bouncing off the track into the wall.
Stop digging your heels in, you are flat wrong and embarrassing yourself talking about Youtube and Murray Walker. Karpouzi (talk) 04:44, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Senna crash 

message: I request this article and related articles be semi-protected immediately because Google has placed up a Google doodle mentioning Ayrton Senna. He would've been turned 54 today. This could be target for vandalism because the link to the Wikipedia article is on the top of the Google search results. Team Elite Enterprises Productions (talk) 04:33, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've lodged a request at WP:RFPP. DH85868993 (talk) 05:01, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the request now that the Doodle has disappeared. DH85868993 (talk) 03:00, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for immediate semi-protection regarding Google Doodle mention 

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thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: I noticed that the article mentions an EP entitled 'Ayrton Senna' so I thought I'd point out a song by Corduroy that shares the title, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_Here_(Corduroy_album)
121.45.218.234 (talk) 12:05, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool! Thanks :) CtrlXctrlV (talk) 12:30, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop culture references 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In section 3.1, §7 please add link for [red flag] → [Racing flags#Red flag] : 107.15.157.44 (talk) 23:12, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Jack Frost (talk) 05:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2020