Talk:Two Hearts (Kish Mauve song)

message: The writing credits on my CDs seem to have the opposite to what is written on the Wikipedia page.  Which is correct?  Wiki or the CDs?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.47.254 (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been fixed. -- Underneath-it-All (talk) 04:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong info on B-sides 

message: I'm glad to say that the article is nicely written, well referenced and is broad in coverage, passing the GA criteria. I have made a little copyedit and added a source which was probably needed. I removed the note about Madonna having ten number ones as there is no source covering it, and I can't find a source that says this. Fell free to add it back if you can find a source. 
Otherwise, the article is good and difficult to fault. Thanks to everyone who contributed. Merry Christmas :) RaNdOm26 (talk) 12:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!! -- Underneath-it-All (talk) 17:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA pass 

message: Since the sound file, :File:Kylie - 2 hearts.ogg, has been removed by one editor citing WP:NFC, without saying how this image specifically violates it, I am starting a discussion here so that the image is not deleted simply for being orphaned.
The current consensus for sound files are that they are acceptable for use in single/song articles as long as they are small samples of the song. Aspects (talk) 18:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use of sound file 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Pretty much #Requested move 28 January 2019 gives the whole picture, but I'll try to resume the situation here. The song "Two Hearts" was written by Kish Mauve for a release of theirs in 2005 (Kish Mauve (EP)). At the time, the band was kind of obscure but nowadays it satisfies WP:NBAND. Two years later, the band offered the song to Australian singer Kylie Minogue. She recorded it, she/Parlophone Records changed the name of the song to "2 Hearts", and it was released as single in 2007. The song gained international popularity. We have to note that at the time all of this happened this article was located at 2 Hearts (without disambiguation), which was added until 2014, through a RM. The disambiguation added was "(Kylie Minogue song)". Note that at the time of the RM the article was written like this . It is barely mentioned about being a cover as "The song is a cover version of a track originally recorded by Kish Mauve" on the lead, not in the first paragraph, but in the second.
A few days ago, I read somewhere that the song is not by Minogue but by Mauve. Per WP:SONGDAB ("Use the name of the performer who first published the song and not a cover artist name"), and previous consensus through multiple articles I had seen (including but not limited to) All I Ever Wanted (Aranda song), Friday Night (Lady Antebellum song) and Run Run Run (Tokio Hotel song) I decided to WP:BOLDLY move the page and made a few modifications to avoid confusion about "why is this titled 'Kish Mauve'?", not expecting the heat level of opposition from Subtropical-man above. KHBritish moved the song from (Kish Mauve song) to (2007 song) due to a misunderstanding (explained above). Then I opened a new RM to return it to (Kish Mauve song). The discussion was going normally until Subtropical-man started to take it personally and after this comment I decided that RM wouldn't be enough for this situation. Because of this I closed the RM and opened this RFC. I have thought about multiple situations which will be listed below (additional options are welcomed). © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Background

message: ====••Option 1: Mention Kish Mauve in the article thoroughly====
The article will mention the little existing information about Kish Mauve original version. An example of the free online information available about the original song can be seen in this draft I did a few days ago. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Generally, "Run Run Run" song is an example acting on your disadvantage, both version - Tokio Hotel and Kelly Clarkson they were listed on the charts - so, this example differs from this case because "Two Hearts" by Kish Mauve is meaningless, not notable, total zero... and even has a different name than song by Kylie Minogue. Also, disambiguation page of :Run Run Run show song as "Run Run Run" (Tokio Hotel / Kelly Clarkson song). This is very interesting option of name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 01:13, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *The consensus for the name is at Talk:Run Run Run (Tokio Hotel song). © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 18:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: •To mention Kish Mauve

message: The article will mention the little existing information about Kish Mauve original version. An example of the free online information available about the original song can be seen in this draft I did a few days ago. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ••Option 1: Mention Kish Mauve in the article thoroughly

message: *Support, as nominator. There is no policy or guideline that explicity disapproves the addition of such information. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Oppose - whole section for non-encyclopedic and not-notable pre-song? Nonsense. One-two sentences in contents of article is enough. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:10, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: *Comment The article should mention whatever relevant information that can be reliably sourced. I can't say a priori whether that will amount to one sentence, two sentences, or several paragraphs. (However, after doing a pretty thorough search for references the other day to see if Kish Mauve (EP) could be rescued from deletion, I'm pessimistic about our ability to find sources supporting more than a sentence or two). Anyways, I would need to judge any particular piece of information and reference on a case-by-case basis. Therefore I'm abstaining from voting on options 1 and 2. Dindon~enwiki (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral/Other comments

message: It was mentioned above, by two users, that a mere short mention of the band is enough. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ••Option 2: Short mention about Kish Mauve in the article 

message: *Support - short mention about Kish Mauve in the article is enough. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:39, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Opposed - If the information is reliably sourced and relevant, then this is too restrictive. Sergecross73 msg me 20:36, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: Following WP:SONGDAB's recommendation of "Use the name of the performer who first published the song", as well as per the multiple examples mentioned in the RM above. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Generally, "Run Run Run" song is an example acting on your disadvantage, both version - Tokio Hotel and Kelly Clarkson they were listed on the charts - so, this example differs from this case because "Two Hearts" by Kish Mauve is meaningless, not notable, total zero... and even has a different name than song by Kylie Minogue. Also, disambiguation page of :Run Run Run show song as "Run Run Run" (Tokio Hotel / Kelly Clarkson song). This is very interesting option of name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 01:13, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *The consensus for the name is at Talk:Run Run Run (Tokio Hotel song). © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 18:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ••Option 3: Include "Kish Mauve" in the title of the page

message: *Support, as nominator. I think that Torn (Ednaswap song) is the perfect example for this as Torn (Natalie Imbruglia song) is more popular and WP:RECOGNIZABLE than that of Ednaswap. (For those who don't know the song, here is the official video, also the popularity of "Torn" is comparable to the one of "2 Hearts"). Another good example is Run Run Run (Tokio Hotel song), where Run Run Run (Kelly Clarkson song) is not a cover, but a different version of a demo recorded during similar recording season. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Generally, "Run Run Run" song is an example acting on your disadvantage, both version - Tokio Hotel and Kelly Clarkson they were listed on the charts - so, this example differs from this case because "Two Hearts" by Kish Mauve is meaningless, not notable, total zero... and even has a different name than song by Kylie Minogue. Also, disambiguation page of :Run Run Run show song as "Run Run Run" (Tokio Hotel / Kelly Clarkson song). This is very interesting option of name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 01:13, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *The consensus for the name is at Talk:Run Run Run (Tokio Hotel song). © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 18:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Oppose - per very long disscusion above. Article is about single of Kylie Minogue. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 20:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: The song was originally published as "Two Hearts" in 2005. Because of this, should the page be named as such? © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ••Option 4: If "Kish Mauve" is included in the title of the page, should it be titled as "Two Hearts (Kish Mauve song)"?

message: * Support, since this seems to be the same as the subtopic immediately above this one. If this is just about the spelling, use the original. The next cover might call it "TwoHearts" or "Two (Hearts)" or "Two ♥s" for all we know.  Use plain English per MOS:TM. It would also be aberrant for us to use the reified title of a work when the article is about the work as a whole. For example, Philip K. Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? was also republished as Blade Runner (in more than one edition) after release of the film Blade Runner (based on that novel), and million more people (orders of magnitude more) have seen the film, and think of the story (as a total concept) as, Blade Runner, than have ever read the novel under its original title. It's even possible taht more people have read the novel under the title Blade Runner, though we'd need to see book sales data. Nevertheless, we would never move the novel's article to Blade Runner (novel), which is just a redirect.  The underlying point being: WP:COMMONNAME is not even one of the WP:CRITERIA; it's what we use to pick the first, default title choice to then test against those criteria, against all other applicable policies and guidelines, and to weigh under all other applicable concern.  Bible-thumping about COMMONNAME cannot be used to thwart WP:Common sense, a general meta-principle applied to all of our decision-making.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:53, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Oppose, as nominator. When I was looking for information about it, all the sources about the original song I could find labeled it as "2 Hearts". Due to this WP:COMMONAME interfers with the uncommon title "Two Hearts". © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====••Option 5: Return the status quo before the January 2019 move====
In other words, to keep the Kish Mauve mentions limited and the article titled as "2 Hearts (Kylie Minogue song)".
© Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I rephrased it, as it was similar to option 2. Also option 6 is about status quo. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 22:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: •Returning to status quo

message: In other words, to keep the Kish Mauve mentions limited and the article titled as "2 Hearts (Kylie Minogue song)".
© Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I rephrased it, as it was similar to option 2. Also option 6 is about status quo. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 22:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ••Option 5: Return the status quo before the January 2019 move

message: *Support - name existing for years and supported by consensus. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:04, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: *Oppose, as nominator. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: * Comment I think the description of this option could be clarified. The heading "to not mention Kish Mauve" seems to contradict the text "keep the Kish Mauve mentions limited". Since options 1 and 2 already deal with the amount of text to devote to Kish Mauve in the body, maybe Option 5 should just be about keeping the title "2 Hearts (Kylie Minogue song)"? (That's the specific part my vote is intended to be toward.) Dindon~enwiki (talk) 21:45, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I rephrased it, as it was similar to option 2. Also option 6 is about status quo. © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 22:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral/Other comments

message: Can this be similar to 4 Minutes versus Four Minutes and keep it without disambiguation as it was before 2014?
=====Support=====
*Support return the status quo, neutral name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:30, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ••Option 6: Return the status quo, even further: should it be titled simply [[2 Hearts]]?

message: *Support return the status quo, neutral name. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:30, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: * Nope. This does not actually pass muster under current interpretation of WP:SMALLDETAILS. Numerous discussions in the last couple of years have gone against treating such minor substitutions as valid disambiguation because a) readers often don't know what the "correct" spelling is, and b) reliable sources are not at all consistent in mimicking stylization of song titles and other pop-culture stuff's names.  Furthermore, this is not an article about the Minogue single and its modified title, it's about the song, from conception to present (and it's likely that a near-future present will include more covers, since notable pop songs usually garner multiple covers over time).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: *Neutral.  © Tbhotch™</font> (en-2.5). 20:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral/Other comments

message: Why you add only options of "no more than a line" and "whole section" (your draft) for data about Kish Mauve. Why there is no option "One-two sentences in contents of article"? Your option "no more than a line" is too very restrictive. Also, your description of "It was mentioned above, by two users, that a mere mention of the band in one line is enough to give context" is not true. Two users wrote nothing about one line. Please change your text to "short mention" or similar. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *No change - I don’t believe there should be any restriction if we’ve got RS backed content to add. Sergecross73 msg me 22:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Ok. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 22:22, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discuss