Talk:Carlisle Indian Industrial School

message: The first quotation in the article which has the footnote "2" cites the reference at the bottom that cites an article by Hyde from 1979 but it does not appear in the reference list.  Was it deleted?  169.232.228.209 (talk) 02:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyde article: where is the citation?

message: The term Buffalo Soldiers was used AFTER the civil war. I check Buffalo Soldiers by Leikie and found references to Lt. Pratt.  He did not seem to command a regiment, at best with his rank he might have commanded a company.   In Sept 1874 Lt. Pratt was in command of a group of 40 Indian Scouts as part of a large operation out of Ft. Still by the 10th Cavalry.  In 1874 Scouts were enlisted in the Army which does not make them soldiers for hire.  On the other hand, non-native american scouts were civilian contractors which would qualify as mercenaries. 
This pre Carlisle history of Pratt at first glance seems reasonable when it comes to who, when, where. http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/PP/fpr33.html
  --Rcollman 13:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pratt "facts"?

message: I have reverted a change to the abuse section back to:
"Hundreds of children died at Carlisle.[5] While some died from diseases foreign to Native American’s immune systems (tuberculosis, pneumonia, smallpox, etc.) others died while attempting to escape from the school or from physical, emotional and sexual abuse or malnutrition"
The change had said that "Over a hundred died..." and "Most died from diseases...". This is probably due to a misreading of the source. The cemetary is said to have 175 graves and close to 150 died of diseases. However, of those who died, the source says, "most" were sent home for burial. So, the number that died, while unknown, is in excess of 350 (175 graves + over 176 ("most") sent home for burial).
Mdbrownmsw 15:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abuse 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:BattlefieldandClassroom.jpg

message: While there are a number of references, quotes in the article about conditions at the school come mostly from one source, leading to POV.  There is no attempt to provide context for why people thought the school could do something positive, however misguided some of the approach may have been.--Parkwells (talk) 12:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There were real abuses at Indian boarding schools, but much is conflated in this article.  It  relies too heavily on quotes from a review essay on Ann Rinaldi's children's book My Heart Is on the Ground.  The quotes are drawn from numerous accounts of all Indian boarding schools, not just Carlisle, so it is difficult to know whether quotes apply to that school or others.  It would be better for editors to go to the original sources, so that people know where the information is coming from and what it references.--Parkwells (talk) 13:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is inappropriate in this article to use quotes that refer to events at schools other than Carlisle; that would be ok for a general article about Indian boarding schools. Much of the regimen was similar, but sources should deal with this school.  Material dealing with experiences at other schools was deleted.--Parkwells (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Need more sources and context

message: Due to this schools importance in national history, I am giving it High-importance for WikiProject Schools. Camaron ·  Christopher · talk 17:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assessment 

message: The section on citizenship is lifted virtually verbatim from the longer article on Native Americans. I think this article should stick to the facts and discussion of the Carlisle School.Parkwells (talk) 17:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citizenship

message: The discussion is too long about his experience at Fort Marion, which is covered in the article by that name. It should focus on what he thought he learned and what he volunteered to do for the gov't with an Indian school.Parkwells (talk) 18:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Richard Henry Pratt

message: There were historical reports to congress.  If you'd like to be horrified, look at what they admitted doing at the school.  Especially interesting is how they farmed the kids out to local businesses, then used the money to fund the school, then put aside some into private bank accounts, but still skimmed from that as well.  
I caught that as well.  The phrase from the first page said the following:  Students also learned trade and work skills such as farming and manufacturing   Seriously?   They were rented out to the farmers and exploited to help make some families rich, and the money was deposited into accounts, in the DILLSBURG private bank, where very little, if any of the funds were given back to the kids.  Please read the Congressional Indian reports, on the Carlisle School.    
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.207.167.148 (talk) 21:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indian Affairs Reports... 

message: In its current state, this article reads like a recruiting poster for the school. I pulled phrases like "Carlisle was a unique school and produced a new generation of Native American leadership" and "Attending Carlisle is considered by many Native Americans like going to Harvard, Yale or Oxford" that were repeated over and over. More needs to be culled and information about the very real human violations that occurred at Carlisle need to restored. It's going to be a challenge because the article is so verbose and redundant. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. It has gotten very strange and much like an anecdotal essay about the early years and first students. I thought the previous article needed more context for issues like discipline, children working, fatalities due to disease, but this seems over the top in another direction.Parkwells (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks so much for your edits. When articles get this long and unwieldy, it's hard to know how to proceed! -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:06, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, glad to help. I'm struggling, too. Many sections sound like lengthy unattributed quotes, and then there are the credited ones - overused, I think. Also, they are mostly about the beginning.Parkwells (talk) 22:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a paragraph to the Lead that at least touches on the controversial aspects of these schools. I think it is worthwhile to note that many founders and teachers' intentions were good, but they also did damage which some Native Americans have identified. Very complex. Much of the Wild Westing material is in the article by that name, and to Buffalo Bill's article.Parkwells (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: The following belongs with articles about the Buffalo Bill and his Wild West shows, not here. I've deleted it from the article and am moving it to the one on Buffalo Bill.Parkwells (talk) 22:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: 21st century Wild Westing

message: I haven't read this article in depth as of yet, but it looks like someone put a lot of work into it. My only suggestion is that the many interesting photos might be better collected into a "gallery" section rather than running  down the right margin. PurpleChez (talk) 20:32, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an excellent photograph of the school's "students", circa 1900, to be found on Wikipedia's American Indian boarding schools page. I leave questions of why the photograph isn't used here alone. IMHO, it should be.174.130.72.24 (talk) 19:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I agree with editor 131.252.53.138 that the below edit (appropriately revised, e.g. link "cultural leg of genocide" to Cultural genocide) needs to be made in order to "remove white-centric bias that framed the settler perspective as inherently accurate while Ignoring the native one that we still remember in our communities today." It is disappointing but not surprising (given WP:BIAS across Wikipedia articles; see e.g. Colonialism reverts) that longtime editor and credentialed though controversial historian User:Rjensen never sought to resolve this issue since the original edit of 2013, but then quickly reverted it for bureaucratic reasons (WP:PLEASEDISCUSS) when good-faith edits were made. I believe User:Rjensen must either undo this revert or put some time in removing the white-centric bias himself.
Original: Pratt's approach was harsh but an alternative to the commonly-held goal of extermination of Native Americans. A positive outcome of a Carlisle education was the student's increased multilingualism.Oskate Wicasa 118
Revision: Pratt's efforts exhibited the cultural leg of genocide, paired with the direct and indirect  physical slaughter happening otherwise . some of the kids learned English while managing to retain their own languages, instead of losing them entirely as planned.Oskate Wicasa 118
Imagine&Engage (talk) 14:42, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits to remove white-centric bias 

message: An important edition to this wiki would be a section on the cemetery that currently exists at the US army war college that houses the remains of the children who were too sick to travel back to their reservations. The Cemetery has a particularly interesting history as when it was moved for construction by the US army the remains were mishandled which make repatriation exceedingly difficult. The inclusion of this information may also be beneficial for families searching for relatives who may still be buried in Carlisle 
sources: (n.d.). Retrieved November 12, 2020, from http://carlisleindian.dickinson.edu/cemetery-information/resources
Indianz. (2018, August 13). U.S. Army looking for families of children buried at boarding school. Retrieved November 12, 2020, from https://www.indianz.com/News/2018/08/13/us-army-looking-for-families-of-children.asp  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charr page (talk • contribs) 15:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carlisle Indian School Cemetery  

message: I don't see any categories on this page. I'm trying to find other pages about Indian Schools. . J. S. Smith (talk) 10:19, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is the categorization of this page, please? 

message: The claim of only 158 students graduating needs clarification on what graduating means here, as well as a better source than an opinion article that doesn’t cite its source for that claim. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 02:01, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  How is “graduate” defined? 

message: There is practically no discussion of the quality of the "education" provided to the inmates. There is also little discussion on the ages of the inmates nor the length of their stay. The Learning Company has a course (24 lectures on Native American history) in which the lecturer claims that the goal of the school was to "educate" the girls into servants and the boys into agricultural laborers, although some learned (whether the school aided or squelched these kids' self-education is another (unanswerable?) question) enough reading and arithmetic to become bookkeepers. This needs to be put into its historical context: what were most white schools doing? were they sending out their "students" to serve in (rich) families homes and work in the fields? The term "slave labor" seems appropriate. This school was, almost certainly, a horrible place. Regardless of the "Progressive" motivations, the ability and willingness of the federal, dominantly Christian White, government to protect these children, it did not prevent pervasive abuse - by staff, other students, and the people who "rented" these boys and girls out. Given the history of the Indian Commissions, this should surprise no one. This following is a section from Wikipedia's article on Pratt's first "school" experiment:"Pratt's experiences at Fort Marion [ed.1875] became the basis for his campaign to create American Indian boarding schools. Although these schools were supposedly for the purpose of educating native people, they became sites where native children were prohibited from speaking their languages or practicing their own religion. Many children were removed from their families forcibly or under threat of withholding food rations. [ed. note: the US government forced Am.Indians to live on land they couldn't farm and so forced them to depend on federal food rations which were often not forthcoming, and when available were NOT handed out by the Indian Agent equitably.] Children's letters home were censored, and many children were taken to agricultural labor camps over the summer, instead of being allowed to visit home. Many have accused American Indian boarding schools of countless abuses and violations of child labor laws, in addition to accusations of cultural genocide." This is OBVIOUS content for this article's lead!!!!174.130.72.24 (talk) 18:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education  

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The issue previously documented here with positive bias toward the school and a lack of Native American perspective remains. See the "Edits to remove white-centric bias" section, for example--this line, discussed there, still appears in the article: "Pratt's approach was harsh but an alternative to the commonly-held goal of extermination of Native Americans. A positive outcome of a Carlisle education was the student's increased multilingualism." Alyshkalia (talk) 19:23, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias issue remains