Talk:Arvo Pärt

message: Part's recent compositions suggest he is moving away from tintinnabuli minimalism to some new and richer, and closer to the avant-garde. I'll try to write something about that in the coming days. Crculver 02:06, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: He has two albums currently in the RYM Top 50 albums of all time.--h i s   s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 22:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That may have been so 11 years ago. But I'm not sure that's a reliable source. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[RateYourMusic.com]] 

message: Is there a source to back up the implicit claim that he's an Eastern Orthodox Christian? (The claim isn't made in the text, but he's included in :Category:Estonian Eastern Orthodox Christians.) Just because he's set portions of the Orthodox liturgy to music, that doesn't mean he's Orthodox himself. In fact, most Estonians who belong to the Orthodox Church are of Russian ethnicity; most people of native Estonian ethnicity are Lutherans. I'm not saying it's impossible he's Orthodox, just that it's perhaps unexpected, and it ought to be mentioned in the text and backed up with a source if he's going to be included in the category. +Angr 07:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite so, large part of the population converted to orthodox faith in 19th century. Hoping some benefits from sharing the religion with the Czar. For example President Päts was also orthodox.--78.28.106.45 (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm Estonian and I even remember when I was in school there was some dispute over a known Estonian ballet dancer dancing over his music. His, and also Paganini's. And then a comment by Pärt that Paganini's burning in hell and that he finds it totally inappropriate for his music to be used in the same work as Paganini. So it would seem he's pretty heavy on the whole orthodox thing.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hurr (talk • contribs) 21:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out Dorian Supin's 2002 documentary Arvo Pärt: 24 Preludes for a Fugue (Arvo Pärt 24 prelüüdi ühele fuugale). If I'm not mistaken, it should greatly clarify the matter.• H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈ {KLAT} • 19:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern Orthodox? 

message: Either I'm not explaining this well you don't understand. So allow me to reiterate. I am not saying that Pärt‎‎ is not Estonian. I'm not saying that Estonians don't think highly of Pärt‎‎'s music. I'm not saying that Pärt‎‎ has not done things for the nation of his birth. I am simply stating that to understand the nature of Pärt‎‎'s contribution to the role of music, one does not need to understand Estonia, which is why no link is required to the article on that nation. In other words, as OVERLINK asks you to ask yourself before linking: is reading the article on Estonia going to help a reader understand the article on Pärt‎‎. Please explain, in detail, exactly what parts of the article on Estonia a reader of this article will benefit from to help them understand Pärt‎‎ more fully. Do reliable sources state that one needs to understand Estonia to understand Pärt‎‎? Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:17, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do we link Paide, Järva County? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:00, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

text: (watching, + edit conflict:) The question is if we can assume our readers to know what and where Estonia is. If not, a brief look at the infobox of Estonia will tell them where, and reading the lead what. They should know both, not to understand Pärt's music but his biography. He is also a person, not only a composer (and that should show in an infobox, if you ask me, but I won't waste time on that topic). I don't need RS to tell me that where he came from and was driven to go away by the politics was important for his life. - Arguing that the link to Paide may supply a link to Estonia is a different story. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally agree. So born there, to Estonian parents, brought up and educated there, speaking that language and forced to leave there by a foreign power, the returning to live there, and having set up a music centre there. I don't need an RS source either. In fact, I'm struggling to see the requirement for providing any source as a part of policy at WP:OVERLINK. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:37, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  So once again, no answer to the real question. There is no requirement for providing a source. I have imposed that, but again, you can't explain exactly what parts of the article on Estonia a reader of this article will benefit from to help them understand Pärt‎‎ more fully. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please don't "improvise" policy to suit your own arguments. My answer is above, a real answer, not an invented one. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:36, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reason I added that requirement is that you have not provided one, not even a fake one. In short, there is nothing in the article about Estonia that a reader needs to read about to understand this subject. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:48, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree. Some readers will not even know that "Estonian" is a nationality, let alone where Estonia is. As Gerda says, we are not suggesting that every reader has to go and read the entire Estonia article before they can understand this one. If they don't know about Estonia, they can just click and briefly glance and then come straight back. Links are optional - having one there helps those that need it without upsetting ones who don't. The only one who's upset seems to be you. I can't help feeling this is just a difference of subjective opinion that could have been easily solved here by a bit of compromise and local consensus. But you seem to see it as a completely black and white issue. And wholly prohibited by policy.  Martinevans123 (talk) 15:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  arbitrary break 

message: Walter Görlitz, I think you are not doing the right thing in reverting the wikilinking of the country of birth. This seems to have been the eight time, with four different wikipedians making the edit, since last year.
I have re-read the discussion above and the most relevant polices. You reverted referring to WP:OVERLINK, which discourages unneccessary linking of "subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar", (including major countries). I made the edit referring to WP:UNDERLINK, which tells us to link "proper names that are likely to be unfamiliar to readers". And you yourself have agreed early in the discussion "that most English speakers don't know where Estonia is".
In the above discussion, Martinevans123 has argued that linking Estonian helps the reader that wants to know  rudimentally what place and culture Pärt originates from. Deskford has argued from WP:EDITCONSENSUS and WP:SSEFAR that it's common practice to link Estonia and other minor contries of origin, and helpful for those who want to see it's location on the map. He also noted that it was linked from 2004 up until 27 August 2015, when an anonymous editor on link removing spree passed by. Gerda Arendt was initially opposed, but returned to the discussion saying "[Can we] assume our readers to know what and where Estonia is? If not, a brief look at the infobox of Estonia will tell them where, and reading the lead what. They should know both, not to understand Pärt's music but his biography." Walter Görlitz has opposed, stating that a link is not necessary to understand Arvo's work, and that it puts an undue focus on nationality.
Walter, the link we want to restore points to the country of birth. This is not a fight about nationalism. It's about making a minor helpful improvement in the user-friendliness of this article. You are an experienced editor. Whith all due respect, I think you should stop reverting this link restoration.
St.nerol (talk) 08:55, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No objections to an RfC. But it would save everyone's time and effort if Walter Görlitz just made a brief statement that he agreed with consensus. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:05, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have no objection to an RfC either, but it would save a lot of time if you nationalists just recognized that there's no need for a link since :WP:OVERLINK says not to link to major geographic regions and the context section of :MOS:LEADBIO states we should focus on the activities that made the person notable. In Pärt's case, it's not the nation of his birth but it's being a musician. If people are interested in finding out what "Estonian" means, there are links in his "life" section a few sentences later via both Paide and Järva County. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  ?? Looks like we all have to endure an RfC, then. (6,625 words, 44,153 characters and 14 months later... and all this over four square brackets.) Martinevans123 (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Technically "[]" are brackets, "{}" are braces and "()" are parenthesis. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:42, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  And grammatically the plural of parenthesis is parentheses. But I'm not sure that really advances your argument a great deal either way. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're right about the plural. I hadn't intended on including both (and wondered whether I should quote the pair together or separately), but discussing linking is the whole point, so saying that this is about linking, and four bytes of data, is not really advancing your argument. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:08, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think this entire thread has been an annoying waste of time. But perhaps you think it's a useful and enlightening investment. I really don't see the huge problem for the reader in having the eight letters of the thirteenth word in blue instead of black. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:13, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, that's the point. The fact that you don't see a clear concept as problematic is the reason this discussion has carried on for as long as it has. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:21, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah yes, everyone else here has a problem. I almost forgot. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sorry if you think I'm characterizing the situation that way. I only meant to single you out. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:26, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  How very thoughtful of you. Deeply touched. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:30, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  No less than your behaviour. By the way, the way you linked that book title created a link back to this talk page, which simply proves my point on your lack of care and concern for :MOS:LINKING. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   Yes, I guess you may have won your argument outright now. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:12, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

text: Thank you very much, Walter, for clarifying that. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:20, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

text: I confess I understood that wrong. Thank you for clarifying. "The only real nation is humanity." (quoted by User talk:Br'er Rabbit/Editnotice) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary break, October 2018

message: # Knowing that the MoS doesn't request it I support a link on the first mentioning of Estonian, not somewhere later. Ignoring some rules, ready to help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:03, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough 

message: The lead has this: "Pärt has been the most performed living composer in the world for five consecutive years." 
That should have a citation, and it should say which five consecutive years. SlowJog (talk) 03:43, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I mistakenly typed "conductor" while thinking "composer." "Composer" is correct.SlowJog (talk) 03:51, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I corrected to six, and added a cite. Will be seven soon, is my guess. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, but the lead has no footnote linking to the article cited. Could you add that, please?  SlowJog (talk) 21:35, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As with all content in the lead section, it can also be found in the article main body, where it is sourced. Sources do not need to be repeated in the lead. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I didn't know that. Also, I missed it in the body. Reading too quickly, I guess. SlowJog (talk) 19:13, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most played living composer? 

message: Should the nation of Estonia be linked in the opening paragraph?  Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:13, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: A week is minimum, afaik, and there's no rush. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:42, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linking Estonia 

message: Where does he live and work now?--Dthomsen8 (talk) 20:39, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: In Berlin and Tallinn. ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:02, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  As the article says, he is now based in Laulasmaa, although he clearly moves around. Link 1 (that site is already among the External links), link 2 (just added as a citation). Narky Blert (talk) 11:30, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where does he live and work now? 

message: Do we have to point to Michael Pärt? What if we point to all people who share a surname for Miller and Jones? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:58, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: MOS:DAB is what gives us guidance. :Pärt redirects to this article as it is the more common term. There is only one other possible target, and that is the son and that therefore requires a hatnote. If you can find another possibility discussed in the MoS, feel free to share it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:04, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hat note 

message: In my opinion the information about the centre should be kept quite brief in the article. The centre does deserve its own page (also for the architecture of the building, having been nominated to the Mies van der Rohe Prize and having won three Estonian architecture prizes) and once somebody creates it all facts about its opening and history can be mentioned there. What matters in the context of Arvo Pärt's life is that the centre exists, that it was established by his family and that it serves as the main access point to his archive and to the most up-to-date information about him. -- Toomas (talk) 11:33, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Once that other article get written, that's true, but until then, where would readers find it? (GA, forgot to sign) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs) 14:28, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, yes but then again there's no point keeping information that doesn't have any actual value, for example this piece of information about 8 ministers being invited, none of whom attended. If we want to beef it up a little we need to think what about it is important enough to add to Arvo Pärt's article. I will try to start writing the centre's article in near future. -- Toomas (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's good! If you feel the opening information shouldn't be in the article, please put it here. I had little time to study, just checked that it had a working reference. I agree that music is more important, and wrote several of the articles about his works, having sung some of them, such as Salve Regina. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, not everything about a notable subject needs to be chronicled. See :WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:26, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Arvo Pärt Centre

message: It is not clear why he is the most performed living composer in the world.  Does this refer to soundtracks or his music being performed live or both? 2607:FEA8:10E0:1C00:7160:DEF0:E65C:651A (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: please look up, was discussed before, - and no, performed also means live performances, not only sound tracks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

text: ... thank you for making me look, - now No. 2 in that statistic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:37, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Gerda you are right. I think, Bachtrack lists only live events (concerto, opera, dance) and no cinema performances. Grimes2 (talk) 17:01, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wonder if they "catch" performances as we just did, of The Deer's Cry, - the church has a contract with the authorities to perform without individual notices (+ money) as long as performed in events without tickets, such as church services. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:14, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ohh, Bachtrack didn't mention your Pärt concert, the list seems to be incomplete. They are maybe too commercial, they want to sell tickets. Grimes2 (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification of Most Performed

message: His death was added with a mention to https://www.arvopart.ee/en/ in the edit summary. I can't find anything like that there. Are there any citable sources? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:03, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't find anything looking through Google either. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs)  12:21, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Death? - no source