Talk:The Fourteen Infallibles

message: Why is it that Fatimih, daughter of the seventh Imam, Musa-Kazim, bears the epithet Ma'sumih, though she is not one of these fourteen? J S Ayer (talk) 01:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fatimih bint Musa-Kazim 

message: "Ordoni, Abu Muhammad; Muhammad Kazim Qazwini (1992). Fatima the Gracious. Ansariyan Publications. ISBN B000BWQ7N6."
This is not an ISBN, it is an ASIN. Can anyone supply the actual ISBN? KConWiki (talk) 22:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Book references

message: The article needs to be promoted. I'm going to add some materials and edit the existing ones so that it qualify the criteria of featured list. The "background" section is the first part to be edited. Then I'll complete the list and edit the lead based on the changes. Mhhossein (talk) 10:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Article promotion

message: salam. u want to have a background for ismah or for 14 inafallibles?
Salman mahdi (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ? 

message: According to Ann Lambton the concept of ismah does not exist in the Qur'an. While according to Wilferd Madelung this concept exists in the verse of purification.. We should add both claims in the article.--Seyyed(t-c) 04:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: that's it. I agree with you on adding Madlung's point.Mehdi ghaed (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Lambton's vs Madelung's claim

message: I think the detailed information which has been described in the Arguments for Ismah section is not suitable for this article and should be moved to the main article, Ismah. This article is a list of "The Fourteen Infallibles " not an article about Ismah.--Seyyed(t-c) 18:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I  with Seyyed, this article is just a list! Mhhossein (talk) 11:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

text: I too  with Seyyed--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 12:46, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

text: I agree with Seyyed in a way . I suggest that  we summarize the reasons here as far as possible and transfer the whole discussion to the page of Ismah..m,sharaf 08:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: @Mehdi ghaed@Sa.vakilian I think Mehdi is right when he says we should summarize the reasons here while we don't have to present a broad paragraph. So, I reckon some of the arguments should be here in a brief form. Mhhossein (talk) 06:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging "Arguments for Ismah" to [[Ismah]]

message: would u please specify the structure of this article?Salman mahdi (talk) 11:34, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it not suitable. We need paragraphs which describe what Ismah of The Fourteen Infallibles means, why Shia believe in such idea and how it has been formed during the history.(what, why and how) Of course, it should be described briefly in two or three paragraphs. --Seyyed(t-c) 15:13, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Structure of 14 Infallibles?

message: @User:Sa.vakilian I had already edited the references based on Harvard citation style. By replacing the list, in fact, you have disturbed the former mentioned edition. Is there any significant difference between the former List and the new one? If the answer is no, then we can modify the former (without the need to replace it by a new one). Mhhossein (talk) 11:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The new list has a better structure. In addition the former table based on some irrelevant sources which are not reliable. Therefor we should check and compare them one by one.--Seyyed(t-c) 12:12, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The new list 

message: I rewrote the table based on the Twelve Imams which is a featured list. The articles of the britanica which has been developed by the online editors are not reliable. Therefor we should add some reliable source to the table.--Seyyed(t-c) 15:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take care of that. Mhhossein (talk) 06:22, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing the table

message: I found sources for all referenceless materials.
I changed the appearance (fonts) of the article and made it a little tidier.--Salman mahdi (talk) 12:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I made same editions. The list still needs to be edited. some references are not reliable which should be replaced by reliable ones. Mhhossein (talk) 10:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Changes

message: We need to add Arabic translations of the words, because eng words can not carry the exact meaning. For example THe Calm is not a suitable translation for الکاظم.
The second matter is where to place the arabic words; either at the article( the page will be very untidy & confusing) or add a note?.--Salman mahdi (talk) 06:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: you'd better open a section at the bottom of the article, before the "footnotes".Mhhossein (talk) 11:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic Words

message: I translated Umm Abiha as The Mother for her father. while somewhere I saw it was traslated as a Mother of her father.I think "of" is used for expressing blood (nasab) relationships;while here it wants to express the maternal kindness of Fatima to her father. I would be grateful to have the idea of others.--Salman mahdi (talk) 06:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation

message: I think the URL and the main title of this page should change from "The Fourteen Infallibles" to "The Fourteen Infallible" omitting the pluralizing 's', as adjectives are not made plural in English. I have already made this edit to all occurrences throughout the page but editing the URL and title apparently demands consensus by contributing users. Strivingsoul (talk) 04:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a smart point. As it seems, we need to move the page. I'll take care of that. Mhhossein (talk) 04:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correcting the URL and the title (omitting pluralizing 's' from the adj. 'Infallible') 

message: The article is a featured list candidate. As mentioned there, the language needs to be enhanced. I'd like to ask strivingsoul to perform the copy editing. Mhhossein (talk) 19:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steps toward featured list criteria 

message: The article lead references that Shias consider the Fourteen to be superiority to the rest of creation. This is not discussed in the article body. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the body. Someone needs to add this to the body. Do you care to, ? Bapehu (talk) 08:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your copy-eds. You are the third one copy-editing the article and we aim to make it a featured list. Btw, I'll take care of that problem. Mhhossein (talk) 13:14, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Superiority of the Fourteen 

message: Do you still have problem with understanding the meaning of "Islamic scholar Wilferd Madelung claims that the purification of Ahl al-Bayt—the family of the Prophet Muhammad—is guaranteed by The verse of purification in the Quran"? I think I explained it before, didn't I? There is verse in the hily Quran book which says, "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification." Madelung argues that according to this verse we can say that certainly Ahl al-Bayt are pure! Mhhossein (talk) 13:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You did explain, but I still couldn't understand the sentence!  I think I understand it now. ~ P-123 (talk) 13:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Another problem with this sentence is that it can leave readers with the sense that this claim -- that a proof for this doctrine is in the Qur'an itself and in that verse's exoteric meaning in particular -- is somehow Madelung's or peculiar to him. Perhaps Madelung endorses the claim himself, which I doubt given his status as a religious studies scholar and not a Muslim jurist; more importantly though, my suspicion is that this claim has been endorsed by the vast majority, if not all, Shia scholars treating this subject over history. This is the more salient point: i.e., we need more sources and need to rephrase the claim to be more general. e.g. 'Shiite scholars point to the verse of purification as a proof of this doctrine. Bapehu (talk) 19:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it's unclear, "Madelung's" point is that Shia's affirm that this doctrine is proven by a verse of the Qur'an. Algar's point is that historical evidence for the assertion of this proof dates from such and such date. i.e. it's not a contrasting position but rather a separate point- Bapehu (talk) 20:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

text:  Yes, I could see that they were completely separate points when copy-editing. At the time I was just puzzled by what the first one meant!  ~ P-123 (talk) 21:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification of Madelung's view

message: The article needs to be promoted. I'm going to add some materials and edit the existing ones so that it qualify the criteria of featured list. The "background" section is the first part to be edited. Then I'll complete the list and edit the lead based on the changes. Mhhossein (talk) 10:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Article promotion

message: salam. u want to have a background for ismah or for 14 inafallibles?
Salman mahdi (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ? 

message: According to Ann Lambton the concept of ismah does not exist in the Qur'an. While according to Wilferd Madelung this concept exists in the verse of purification.. We should add both claims in the article.--Seyyed(t-c) 04:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: that's it. I agree with you on adding Madlung's point.Mehdi ghaed (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Lambton's vs Madelung's claim

message: I think the detailed information which has been described in the Arguments for Ismah section is not suitable for this article and should be moved to the main article, Ismah. This article is a list of "The Fourteen Infallibles " not an article about Ismah.--Seyyed(t-c) 18:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I  with Seyyed, this article is just a list! Mhhossein (talk) 11:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

text: I too  with Seyyed--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 12:46, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

text: I agree with Seyyed in a way . I suggest that  we summarize the reasons here as far as possible and transfer the whole discussion to the page of Ismah..m,sharaf 08:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: @Mehdi ghaed@Sa.vakilian I think Mehdi is right when he says we should summarize the reasons here while we don't have to present a broad paragraph. So, I reckon some of the arguments should be here in a brief form. Mhhossein (talk) 06:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging "Arguments for Ismah" to [[Ismah]]

message: would u please specify the structure of this article?Salman mahdi (talk) 11:34, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it not suitable. We need paragraphs which describe what Ismah of The Fourteen Infallibles means, why Shia believe in such idea and how it has been formed during the history.(what, why and how) Of course, it should be described briefly in two or three paragraphs. --Seyyed(t-c) 15:13, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Structure of 14 Infallibles?

message: @User:Sa.vakilian I had already edited the references based on Harvard citation style. By replacing the list, in fact, you have disturbed the former mentioned edition. Is there any significant difference between the former List and the new one? If the answer is no, then we can modify the former (without the need to replace it by a new one). Mhhossein (talk) 11:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The new list has a better structure. In addition the former table based on some irrelevant sources which are not reliable. Therefor we should check and compare them one by one.--Seyyed(t-c) 12:12, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The new list 

message: I rewrote the table based on the Twelve Imams which is a featured list. The articles of the britanica which has been developed by the online editors are not reliable. Therefor we should add some reliable source to the table.--Seyyed(t-c) 15:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take care of that. Mhhossein (talk) 06:22, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing the table

message: I found sources for all referenceless materials.
I changed the appearance (fonts) of the article and made it a little tidier.--Salman mahdi (talk) 12:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I made same editions. The list still needs to be edited. some references are not reliable which should be replaced by reliable ones. Mhhossein (talk) 10:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Changes

message: We need to add Arabic translations of the words, because eng words can not carry the exact meaning. For example THe Calm is not a suitable translation for الکاظم.
The second matter is where to place the arabic words; either at the article( the page will be very untidy & confusing) or add a note?.--Salman mahdi (talk) 06:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: you'd better open a section at the bottom of the article, before the "footnotes".Mhhossein (talk) 11:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabic Words

message: I translated Umm Abiha as The Mother for her father. while somewhere I saw it was traslated as a Mother of her father.I think "of" is used for expressing blood (nasab) relationships;while here it wants to express the maternal kindness of Fatima to her father. I would be grateful to have the idea of others.--Salman mahdi (talk) 06:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation

message: I think the URL and the main title of this page should change from "The Fourteen Infallibles" to "The Fourteen Infallible" omitting the pluralizing 's', as adjectives are not made plural in English. I have already made this edit to all occurrences throughout the page but editing the URL and title apparently demands consensus by contributing users. Strivingsoul (talk) 04:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a smart point. As it seems, we need to move the page. I'll take care of that. Mhhossein (talk) 04:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correcting the URL and the title (omitting pluralizing 's' from the adj. 'Infallible') 

message: The article is a featured list candidate. As mentioned there, the language needs to be enhanced. I'd like to ask strivingsoul to perform the copy editing. Mhhossein (talk) 19:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steps toward featured list criteria 

message: The article lead references that Shias consider the Fourteen to be superiority to the rest of creation. This is not discussed in the article body. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the body. Someone needs to add this to the body. Do you care to, ? Bapehu (talk) 08:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your copy-eds. You are the third one copy-editing the article and we aim to make it a featured list. Btw, I'll take care of that problem. Mhhossein (talk) 13:14, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Superiority of the Fourteen 

message: Do you still have problem with understanding the meaning of "Islamic scholar Wilferd Madelung claims that the purification of Ahl al-Bayt—the family of the Prophet Muhammad—is guaranteed by The verse of purification in the Quran"? I think I explained it before, didn't I? There is verse in the hily Quran book which says, "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification." Madelung argues that according to this verse we can say that certainly Ahl al-Bayt are pure! Mhhossein (talk) 13:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You did explain, but I still couldn't understand the sentence!  I think I understand it now. ~ P-123 (talk) 13:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Another problem with this sentence is that it can leave readers with the sense that this claim -- that a proof for this doctrine is in the Qur'an itself and in that verse's exoteric meaning in particular -- is somehow Madelung's or peculiar to him. Perhaps Madelung endorses the claim himself, which I doubt given his status as a religious studies scholar and not a Muslim jurist; more importantly though, my suspicion is that this claim has been endorsed by the vast majority, if not all, Shia scholars treating this subject over history. This is the more salient point: i.e., we need more sources and need to rephrase the claim to be more general. e.g. 'Shiite scholars point to the verse of purification as a proof of this doctrine. Bapehu (talk) 19:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it's unclear, "Madelung's" point is that Shia's affirm that this doctrine is proven by a verse of the Qur'an. Algar's point is that historical evidence for the assertion of this proof dates from such and such date. i.e. it's not a contrasting position but rather a separate point- Bapehu (talk) 20:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

text:  Yes, I could see that they were completely separate points when copy-editing. At the time I was just puzzled by what the first one meant!  ~ P-123 (talk) 21:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification of Madelung's view

message: Is the article ready to be nominated as featured list?--Seyyed(t-c) 05:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The structure has been changed based on recent discussions and some copy edits are done to enhance the language. The last thing is to check the "table" against FL criteria, although I've edited that many times. So, If the structure and the language is suitable and enough materials are inserted, the last remaining item is the table. Can you find any problems with it? Mhhossein (talk) 10:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is suitable. Is there any issue in the former reviews which may have not be solved.--Seyyed(t-c) 10:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Seyyed: A discussion happened here to investigate the remaining issues. I think there's nothing left, but lets ask Salman mahdi if there's anything to be done. Mhhossein (talk) 03:28, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tha last issues are applied, but it needs a new review.Salman mahdi (talk) 10:40, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are two options for having the article reviewed; you can ask SchroCat or nominate it at here and ask others to review it against FL criteria (as I did it once before the previous nomination). Mhhossein (talk) 10:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: We've spent enough time to improve the article. I think it is ready to nominate in Wikipedia:Featured list candidates.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured list review

message: I commend the effort editors have invested in this project.  Great job!   I just wanted to suggest making the table columns a fixed width (logos centered, text align left) to better accommodate for word breaks.  As it is now, the text doesn't have a balanced flow which makes it somewhat difficult to read.  Kind regards,  Atsme☯Consult 16:37, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: With thanks, I think you are right, please do as you wish.--Salman mahdi (talk) 18:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's not always the best idea: multiple screen sizes (from a small mobile up to a widescreen) now mean that forcing the size of the column makes that table look awkward in some formats, but not others. - SchroCat (talk) 18:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

text: Yes: it will now fail because of WP:ACESS issues. - SchroCat (talk) 20:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I just looked at the table by  on an iPhone 4s, and the original iPad - both were excellent and well balanced.  The original table above his table required scrolling and again, the text was hard to read.  Not sure what your concerns are with regards to accessibility.  Each device should be able to accommodate accessibility needs.  Atsme☯Consult 21:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's nothing to do on how it looks: it's to do with computer readers being confused by the Rowspan/Colspan. If they are included the list will not pass at FLC. You'd probably be best getting rid of the number column and shrinking the image to half the size to give more space. After that, trim the word count used in the descriptions. - SchroCat (talk) 22:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a plan, .  I am looking forward to see how it all turns out.  Great work!!  Atsme☯Consult 22:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , Historically and for ages, in family tree's have both hosted both birth date and death date related information. The only thing I can find that would even suggest that this would be acceptable on Wikipedia is Wikipedia:Family tree. This not a policy though but a how to guide. Would moving this information to the family tree and removing it from here the other list be acceptable under featured article standards? Also would it be acceptable to put 'Cause and place of death' and pair it place of burial information? Finally is the rowspan code unacceptable or is the proposed example unacceptable?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

text:  I have no familiarity of the subject. The naming information was taken from Muhammad wikipedia page. As I understand this page is directly about Shia Islam. I don't know if that actually naming convention relates to Shia Islam. I also don't have any information with regard to the numbering. The main focus of the effort here was accessibility over numerous devices related to potential rendering and accessibility in regards to use of Colspan and ectspan, to remove possible confusion. As only an example the specific fineries of wording are for someone more specifically aware of the subject. I'm not sure if it's important that Muhammad fell ill and died in Medina and that should be included in such a table. I'm not sure that it's important to say more than he was Buried in Medina, should it also mention the Hejaz region and the Arabian peninsula?  Really the question would be of the possibility of this style format becoming a featured list or should effort be moved to something else? Another possible suggestion could be forgoing the table and forming a paragraph for each with the photo's being placed to the right. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

text: not all tables have numbers. It's very easy to remove the numbers. See now above the example I last posted. Why remove the pictures?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:54, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: To have more space for the table.Salman mahdi (talk) 13:14, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  So I delete the column of numbers.Salman mahdi (talk) 13:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The criticism above seems to be more related to having all of this information lumped into a table. Taking away the pictures doesn't really do much in that regard. What information is choppable? Is it particularly important to list cause of death? I would assume the cause of death is the same in Shia Islam as it is in the rest of Islam. The main articles on these listed people should already contain this, so is that absolutely necessary? Since the focus here is Shia Islam a mention of their importance to shia Islam would seem important. I wouldn't rush to deleting the images without considering exactly what can be removed.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it's important to mention the cause of death and I'm also against removing the pictures. Mhhossein (talk) 13:55, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really see it as important since it will be in the parent article. Perhaps this can be moved to a reference text citation.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:07, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for the table 

message: Is this page really necessary?--88.111.129.157 (talk) 19:43, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no question in the notability of the subject.--Salman mahdi (talk) 06:24, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why not?--Iady391 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why not what? Mhhossein (talk) 06:01, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needed 

message: Baffle gab1978 made some copy edits per my request at WP:GOCE. Mhhossein (talk) 12:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy edit by GOCE 

message: Given that some people mistake this article with Twelve Imams, do you still think that the hatnoe has to be removed ? Mhhossein (talk) 05:41, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, a hatnote should be used, of course. Feel free to return the link to Twelve Imams with eg.Template:Distinguish. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 05:45, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hat note 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on The Fourteen Infallibles. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20141006183739/http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/general/ahl_al-bayt/ to http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/general/ahl_al-bayt/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150220041813/http://maaref-foundation.com/english/index.htm to http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/index.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140816062439/http://www.maaref-foundation.com:80/english/library/pro_ahl/imam04_sajjad/zayn_al_abidin/index.htm to http://maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/imam04_sajjad/zayn_al_abidin/index.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140713121545/http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/imam09_jawad/the_life_of_imam_jawad/index.htm to http://maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/imam09_jawad/the_life_of_imam_jawad/index.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 22:11, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. These links look to be very useful (e.g. subpages, or the few I've tried, seem to be linked as well). Dhtwiki (talk) 21:38, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Would be great for neutral readers  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.199.31 (talk) 02:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone provide do a section of the evidence of the The Fourteen Infallibles  please.