Talk:Bill Lawrence (guitar maker)

message: Please do not vandalize this page by deletion.  If there are factual or opinion corrections to add, place them at the bottom without deleting the article, or its contents.
Article has been altered by Just me too on September 12, 2006. The section started on May 11, 2005 as "Response to Statements Above", edited more than eleven times and the last editing date was December 7, 2005, has been removed. Also removed are the following: "New Info Regarding "Bill Lawrence" Trademark", "Response to: New Info Jzchak Wajcman Altered or Forged Documents", and "Response to: The Facts Are"--Becky Lawrence 20:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Warning

message: As Willi Lorenzo Stich has been known exclusively by the personal name Bill Lawrence for at least 40 years, and was even called Bill Lawrence by Jzchak Wacjman as well before the controversy, it is appropriate and NPOV to call him by that name just as much as the namesMadonna or Sting for those individuals.  As such, those who erase his name and replace it with Willi L. Stich are intentionally trying to add a POV bias.  (Notice Willi = Bill and Lorenzo = Lawrence is intentionally hidden by that.)  To whom belongs Bill Lawrence as a trade mark and/or service mark is debated and acknowledged.  That the person here http://nocaster.com/bl45recordsleeve.jpg is known as Bill Lawrence is continuous 40 year history. All commercial references to Bill address him as a person http://www.billlawrence.com/Images/scan0004.jpg Carltonh 19:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The personal name Bill Lawrence and the person

message: Jzchak Wajcman's altered/forged assignment document posted above, including 180 pages of other dubious documents, were submitted to the USPTO one year ago on July 15, 2005, not two years ago as the anonymous writer posted above. ( See link below)
All of Jzchak Wajcman's altered/forged documents was then, and is still now, a major issue in both the Federal Court and at the USPTO. Using the USPTO and Federal Court to publish dirty documents does not make them clean.
FYI - Wajcman's cancellation petition at the USPTO is suspended -- confirmed dates 06/21/2005 and 06/19/2006. 
See the USPTO history text page - []
--Becky Lawrence 20:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Facts Are: 

message: The recent deletion of the trademark article, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Lawrence (trademark), the dispute appears to have returned here. I have protected the article in an effort to get the editors to resolve the matter on this talk page. Everyone should be aware of the polivy governing biographies of living persons, WP:BLP. It sets strict standards for inclusion of information, particularly concerning the sourcing. Every statement that might be disputed should be sourced with a link or footnote immediately following it. I urge the editors to agree on what can be reliably sourced and neutrally presented. I suggest that we focus on the life of the guitarmaker rather than any trademark issues.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 08:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war 

message: ===Part I===
The company "Bill Lawrence Pickups" was founded in 1965 in order to market the pickups created by professional guitarist Willi Lawrenz Stich, at the time working under the stage name "Billy Lorento" but that name was already committed to Framus (the "Billy Lorento" 5/120 model), hence "Bill Lawrence." (Stich also endorsed Fender in Europe.) 
The company was founded by Jzchak Wajcman (a.k.a. EZ Wajcman, and that is NOT sarcastic, that's how he's signed himself); whether Wajcman and Stich were partners or owner/employee, or Wajcman had somehow licensed the "Bill Lawrence" name, is still clouded. At some point, Stich legally changed his name. And Wajcman somehow obtained total control of the company, and claimed something like prior ownership of the "Bill Lawrence" name.
In any case, per BillLawrenceUSA.com and signed by apparent owner EZ Wajcman, Jzchak Wajcman dba “Bill Lawrence USA“, is not associated with the designer Bill Lawrence since 1984. So, no Bill Lawrence pickup since at least 1984 has had Bill Lawrence anywhere near it. 
The pickup line's origin is no guarantee of what's become of it. Meaning no disrespect to Mr Wajcman, if he were to decide to begin selling cheap generic $5 pickups as "Bill Lawrence," there is nothing legally to stop him (unless there's some sort of explicit contractual expectation of hewing true to the original design & philosophy thenceward, but I'm unaware of anything of the sort).
In like manner, guitarist/inventor Les Paul should not be held responsible for what's become of the Les Paul model Gibson guitar, or Clarence "Leo" Fender blamed for some laughably terrible missteps (whether design or corporate) made in his name. At the same time, the owners/licensors of "Les Paul" and "Fender" have no right to claim (or even imply) the endorsement of their namesakes.
===Part II===
Per http://billlawrence.com/Pages/Bill_Lawrence_Documentary.htm --
:In 1965, Bill Lawrence, Nathan Grossman and Jzchak Wajcman started Lawrence Electrosounds in Munich Germany. ... In 1966, Jzchak Wajcman bought the shares from Grossman and became the majority stockholder. By 1970, Jzchak closed the company, and sold the equipment to Hoyer Guitars. Jzchak moved to Israel, and Bill made the US his permanent residence. They did not meet again until 1982.
:In 1975, Don Redmon and Bill Lawrence started Lawrence Sound Research, Inc (LSR) in Nashville, Tennessee and in 1978, Bill bought Redmon's shares and became the sole stockholder of LSR.
:In 1982, Bill made a bad deal with a New York based distributor, "On-Site-Music" ... Bill says that this was the last time he ever signed a contract without precisely reading every page ten times before signing. Bill knew at the meeting that in a few months his company would be in big trouble.
:Originally, when Jzchak moved to the US, he wanted to dabble in real estate and bought three houses. He could not make his mortgage payments so Bill helped him out. ... Bill gave him, for his legal help against On-Site - and without any payment from Jzchak - fifty percent of Lawrence Sound Research. Now, they were partners again.
:By the end of 1982, Jzchak and Bill started a second corporation, The Lawrence Connection (TLC), in Cardiff, California, with an outlet in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard. Bill was president of both LSR and TLC. Bill ran the production, and Jzchak ran the sales.
:On-Site sued again in December of 1983. The Third National Bank, who had financed the company during the lawsuits, became nervous and threatened them with foreclosure. In March of 1984, Bill had a family emergency. His father had passed away, so he went to Germany to assist his mother. ... Jzchak went to the Third National Bank and told them that Bill had left the country for good, and he wanted to make a deal to buy the company's collateral for himself. The bank couldn't legally make an agreement with Jzchak because he was Bill's partner so Jzchak represented himself as president of "Degalim, Inc", a company based out of Israel. The bank agreed to these terms, and Degalim bought the collateral from the bank. Jzchak paid the bank with Bill's money.
:The  situation with On-Site was not yet over because they still wanted Bill's name. To sue Degalim and Wajcman didn't make any sense to them, so they continued to sue Bill. With no money in Germany, he couldn't come to the trial so he lost in default. ... Bill stood in Germany broke with a $1,156,250.00 judgment against him in the US. He couldn't even go home to his family. Now, Jzchak had a free hand and [operated] as "Jzchak Wajcman Degalim". ... In 1987, Bill came back to the US when On-Site ... had disappeared without paying their attorneys. Bill paid their attorneys and was finally released from the judgment. By that time, Bill was working with Gibson.
To the best of my knowledge, none of the foregoing has been successfully contested by any involved party -- contrary evidence welcomed.
===Part III===
The following is somewhat less pat. Per https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/3980905/ --
:Bill was careful not to have his whole "Bill Lawrence" name as part of the company assets.... Wajcman's copy [of the agreement] had a last sentence not there and was just empty white space on the paper. But Bill Lawrence still had the original which showed that the "Bill Lawrence" name was only on loan to the original company and not its property. ...
:Bill Lawrence did not sue Wajcman to stop Wajcman from using the Bill Lawrence name with any urgency because Bill is anti-litigious by personality. Because Wajcman used the trademark without legal opposition from Bill for 15 years or so, Wajcman was able to legally secure the "trademark" only -- not "allegedly" because he acquired it in a legitimate fashion from Bill.
:HOWEVER, Bill Lawrence retains the Bill Lawrence "service mark" name
And per a site for hardcore fans of pickups made under the auspices of Bill Lawrence (the man), http://billlawrencereview.com/Jzchak_EZ_Wajcman --
:Since 1984, [Wajcman] has been ... doing business as Bill Lawrence Products, Bill Lawrence Guitar Pickups, and Bill Lawrence USA without the involvement of Bill Lawrence (Willi Lorenz Stich). ... [These] are trademark "Bill Lawrence" pickups. ... Pickups made By Mr. Wajcman are commonly confused with pickups built by pickup designer Bill Lawrence( Willi Lorenz Stich), or pickups that Bill Lawrence (Willi Lorenz Stich) has designed for or licensed to other companies.
I offer that latter if only to demonstrate how even well-intentioned comments seem to further confusion. 
===now what?===
Again, I propose two articles. 
The first (under the present heading Bill Lawrence (guitar maker) would be a biography of Willi Stich and a proper list of his accomplishments; there are certainly plenty of sources online. 
The second would be something like Bill Lawrence (guitar pickups) in an attempt to pry (however slightly) the story of the man from the story of the company -- BOTH of which richly deserve to be told with depth and clarity.Weeb Dingle (talk) 22:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: one step toward unsnarling

message: Again, I propose two articles. 
The first (under the present heading Bill Lawrence (guitar maker) would be a biography of Willi Stich and a proper list of his accomplishments; there are certainly plenty of sources online. 
The second would be something like Bill Lawrence (guitar pickups) in an attempt to pry (however slightly) the story of the man from the story of the company -- BOTH of which richly deserve to be told with depth and clarity.Weeb Dingle (talk) 22:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: now what?

message: Per the Part II above, while I am most certainly NOT an attorney, I worked for years with such, coordinating discovery (mostly IP-related), and some of this looks very familiar. Don't know that it bears any inclusion in either proposed article, but it may usefully inform any participating editors.
One bit that stands out is the "common law" way in which Wajcman had control of the name, by BL's 15-year lack of suit. This is not unlike someone who chooses to occupy a previously empty piece of property, via adverse possession or squatting. 
But such control can be adjudged to specifically NOT imply actual ownership, merely control for immediate personal benefit. The person who controls it doesn't necessarily EVER establish any right to sell, let, or sublet the property, or pass it along to heirs.
My mere lay opinion is that the heirs of Bill Lawrence (the man) coud have grounds to clear ownership of the name whenever Wajcman in any way moves to hand the name to someone else. Bringing in partners (even investors) might be considered to lean in that direction. And a case might be made that any clear abuse of the name's inherent goodwill value -- such as the previously mentioned "$5 pickup" scenario -- might weigh heavily to weaken Wajcman's claim. Weeb Dingle (talk) 23:26, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: legalistic thoughts