Talk:Israel–United States military relations

message: This is intended to be a possible prototype for a series of articles on <foo>-United States military relations. The objective is to create a standardised template for bilateral military relations articles, patterned very roughly along the lines of the topical coverage provided in Jane's Sentinel. (Much of the information in this article is taken from there.) The outline template is as follows: 
*Overview
:Summary history of military relations (since WW2?). Needs to link into other general articles.
*Military aid
:Figures for bilateral military aid from the US taken from the most recent Conventional Arms Transfers to Developing Nations (a regular Congressional Research Service publication).
:*Foreign Military Sales
::Figures from the most recent Conventional Arms Transfers to Developing Nations.
:*Foreign Military Financing
::Figures from the most recent Conventional Arms Transfers to Developing Nations.
*Major U.S. military systems in country X use
:A short list of key U.S.-developed military systems in use by the forces of the country to which the article relates. Includes items such as military aircraft, armoured vehicles, missiles and munitions, etc.
*Procurement
:Summary overview of procurement issues.
:*Significant major procurements
::Summary of recent major procurements (generally from the US; there aren't too many the other way!). Cut off date 1990?
*Joint military activity
:Summary of major areas of joint military activity. Most obviously alliances (NATO etc) but also touching on other things such as exercises, transit rights, logistical support, joint deployments etc.
*Controversies
:Summary of controversial issues. There's always something!
The same format should be directly applicable to any country, and indeed any bilateral military relationship (US-Colombia, UK-Poland, France-Chad, etc). -- ChrisO 23:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanation of template

message: Following the AfD debate and DRV discussion on United States military aid to Israel, I've created this article in an effort to resolve the outstanding issues. Key points:
* The new article has a wider scope, covering military relations in general, military aid, procurement, joint military activities and significant controversies.
* The article is intended to be the prototype for a series of x-United States military relations articles; I've written it around a template that can be used for any article of this type. See above for an explanation of the template.
* The article parallels the existing Israel-United States relations article as a spinout and expansion of the military relations aspects.
* All the content is referenced. :-) It's a combination of expanded relevant bits from Israel-United States relations, merged content from United States military aid to Israel and a substantial amount of new content, mostly from Jane's.
I've proposed a merger of United States military aid to Israel into Israel-United States military relations (although I should note that I've already merged everything I feel need to be merged). 
Please take a look at the new article and leave comments below. -- ChrisO 10:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I endorse this article in respect to resolving POV issues that are emanating from the Israel articles, that presently seem to be spreading out all over wikipedia it seems. The format could be applied to any bilateral military relations, provided that the articles themselves require the extra article. Make sure you run this by Wikipedia:WikiProject International relations as well if you haven't already.-- Zleitzen(talk) 01:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *Great article. I still see the need though for the spinout page United States military aid to Israel. I have looked for info on the web before for articles focussed on U.S. military aid to other nations in the form of military-related grants, loans, and specific weapons sold, given, or traded to specific nations. That page serves that need. Your great article does not have the room for that kind of detail, especially on the specific weapons. Not all the articles following your template (x-United States military relations) will need such a spinout page. --Timeshifter 15:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I now support the merge. The new condensed format for the list of U.S.-supplied weapon systems greatly reduced its length without deleting any of the list. That allowed the list to be added here, and there is no longer a need for the other article. --Timeshifter 20:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *There is related talk at Talk:United States military aid to Israel. --Timeshifter 15:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on new article

message: That is the links bar for the merged article. I suggest looking at Tiamut's last revision to see if there is any other useful sourced info remaining that could be merged after the main stuff is added here. Here is Tiamut's last revision:
*http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_military_aid_to_Israel&oldid=128233955
The links bar is created with this code:
:
The talk page from that link bar may have other useful sourced info. --Timeshifter 18:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: {{la|United States military aid to Israel}}

message: Here is a sentence snipped from the Israeli-based MERIA journal:
:"The United States also agreed to fund indigenous development of weapons by Israel, including the Merkava tank and the Lavi combat aircraft. Before the project was canceled in 1987, the Americans provided $2 billion towards the Lavi program."
Here is part of a State Department report on the matter:
:"In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled), $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects."
--64.230.121.213 18:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: US funding of indigenous Israeli weapon development programs

message: I know some of the editors here work on various Arab/Israeli/Palestinian articles. Feel free to visit these projects below, and to add links to related projects of interest below. --Timeshifter 18:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Invitations

message: The more I read it, the less this seems like a reliable source. The referenced article is riddled with errors of fact, from recent history, which a WP:RS with a good reputation for fact checking would have caught and corrected. As one example, the article makes reference to "the Iranian C-802 radar guided missile that sank an Israeli civilian ship" - an event that never took place. I suggest we try to find more reputable sources for this list . Isarig 04:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: worldpolicy.org

message: *. See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. The original closing admin (Doc) wrote: "The result was KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages." Another admin deleted that closing improperly, and changed the closing admin comment to "The result was Delete - with a strong suggestion to merge." See: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#User:Jayjg and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. During the DRV, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26, the original closing admin (Doc) clarified his closing comment and changed it to, "The result was No Consensus = default KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages". The DRV closing admin wrote: "After examining the comments carefully (and ignoring the boldfaces here, which were often confused), there is a ~75% consensus in support of Doc's original closure. Relisting is at editorial option; merge discussions belong on the appropriate talk pages." There are overall articles called United States military aid and Israel-United States military relations. The list of U.S.-supplied weapons systems in the article in question here, United States military aid to Israel, was originally too long to merge with those 2 articles. It was also too long to merge with Israel-United States relations#United States military and economic aid. Thus the need for keeping this  spinout article at first. Some editors tried to delete the main section of the article (the list). See this incident report: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive85#United States military aid to Israel. Resolution was reached after the list was put in a condensed format that greatly reduced its length without deleting any of it. Then the list was merged with Israel-United States military relations. --Timeshifter 01:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kendrick7 then combined the list and a table into one table in the merged article. --Timeshifter 02:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some history of the merged articles

message: The table currently lists (in the incorrect place, under the heading "helicopters") the C-47 Dakota. According to List of aircraft of the Israeli Air Force , these planes , of WWII vintage, were procured in 1948, and decommissioned 7 years ago. Unless someone can show why this constitutes a "major system" procured in "recent years", I'm removing it.  Isarig 02:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tidying up the list

message: Tewfik is continuing his deletion efforts. See this diff. Tewfik initiated the AFD for . He lost the AFD, and all subsequent efforts to delete the material in whole or in part. See the section higher up called "Some history of the merged articles". So now Tewfik is just deleting sourced info in spite of all opposition. --Timeshifter 08:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ignoring your total misrepresentation of history, Wikipedia was still subject to both sourcing and neutrality mandates. If a shotgun is a "major military system", what pray tell is a minor one? TewfikTalk 16:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I still haven't looked at the sources, but we should reflect what they say. I clicked on one of those guns; it didn't exactly look like something I could pick up from my local drug dealer.... -- Kendrick7talk 16:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of where you could buy one, is is your opinion that a shotgun is a ""major military system"? Isarig 17:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One shotgun, no. 30,000? Arguably, yes, in a distributed system sort of way. Having to have to argue about what's "major" or not on a talk page is certainly a good reason to WP:AWW/WP:APT in the first place. Obviously the source felt these were worth mentioning. -- Kendrick7talk 17:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: is there any indication that the number was 30,000, vs. 3? Do the sources list these as "major sytems"? Isarig 17:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Timeshifter's proposal to change the heading to remove the word "major" seemed sensible. We might as well be comprehensive here, and small arms are an important component of warfare, though I'd be fine with de-tabling this section. I'd be happiest if we just reflect the sources, as I have no idea what among these are the latest-and-greatest sniper rifle, or what I could just pick up at a weekend gun show, or even if those two things completely overlap. If Timeshifter comes around and wants to add knifes, now that would be overdoing it. I don't even want to try and figure out where Swiss Army knives are manufactured these days. -- Kendrick7talk 18:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Beyond not even being mentioned in the cited source, as I pointed out a little bit above, the WPI source is clearly forwarding an agenda critical of Israel and has some factual problems; it seems that any information that should be listed can be found in neutral RS like Janes, which Chris already replaced it with. TewfikTalk 18:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I disagree. Removing "major systems" makes no sense, since it now leaves line-drawing to me and you, something totally inappropriate (knives), as well as lowering the encyclopaedic quality of this entry. Over 70 countries are listed as users of M-16s, where Israel is listed like the others; including such lists on every country is overkill. TewfikTalk 18:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing deletion efforts

message: The Eurocopter is a French designed, French made helicopter. The US subsidiary does not make these, and its web site clearly says "Eurocopter military helicopters are exclusively marketed and supported from Eurocopter's company headquarters in France.". This is part of Israel's military relationship with Europe (France), not the US. Isarig 17:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And manufactured in Grand Prairie, Texas. I might have even taken the tour there a long time ago on the pretext of making a field trip mostly to Six Flags look educational.... -- Kendrick7talk 17:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, not the military range. Isarig 17:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oohh... I must have been thinking of a different company. Though if there were just civilian copters there that may be why I've wasted no brain cells remembering the details of the tour.  -- Kendrick7talk 17:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eurocopter

message: Please see:
*http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel.lebanon.FINAL2.pdf
Go to appendix I titled: "U.S.-Supplied Weaponry in Israel’s Military Inventory". 
There is a row there with this info in 3 columns:
Tactical Air-to-Ground missiles (AGM)
Hellfire, Walleye, Maverick, Standard (numbers unknown)
Lockheed Martin/Boeing (Hellfire); Raytheon (Standard, Maverick); Martin Marietta – now Lockheed Martin (Walleye);
I want to link to the relevant wikipedia page with info on Standard Air-to-Ground missiles. The link is needed for the list here:
*Israel-United States military relations#Major U.S. military systems in Israeli use
in the missiles section. Does Raytheon make a Standard Air-to-Ground missile? --Timeshifter 21:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info. --Timeshifter 19:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Standard Air-to-Ground missiles?

message: Major development in my opinion:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/14/gates_surrenders_us_will_suppl/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020702.html
--John Bahrain (talk) 21:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Us Will Supply Israel With Bunker Busting Bombs For Bombing Iran

message: See FY 2012 TOTAL FOREIGN ASSISTANCE PROFILE: ISRAEL
   All amounts in millions of $US
Year     Economic       %              Military           %     Total
1951	    0.756	100.0	0.000	0.0	   0.756
1952	627.907	100.0	0.000	0.0	627.907
1953	525.346	100.0	0.000	0.0	525.346
1954	527.170	100.0	0.000	0.0	527.170
1955	369.048	100.0	0.000	0.0	369.048
1956	346.758	100.0	0.000	0.0	346.758
1957	268.902	100.0	0.000	0.0	268.902
1958	390.805	100.0	0.000	0.0	390.805
1959	314.034	99.2	        2.517	0.8	316.551
1960	343.070	99.1	        3.108	0.9	346.178
1961	294.730	100.0	0.006	0.0	294.737
1962	428.485	84.3	      80.000	15.7	508.485
1963	379.414	82.7	      79.593	17.3	459.007
1964	218.805	100.0	0.000	0.0	218.805
1965	283.721	79.1	      75.000	20.9	358.721
1966	209.448	29.0	    512.237	7       1.0	721.685
1967	33.646	46.6	      38.610	53.4	  72.256
1968	275.972	67.4	    133.191 	32.6	409.164
1969	187.054	30.2	    433.231	        69.8	620.285
1970	198.647	57.8	   144.998	        42.2	343.644
1971	256.906	9.3	2,509.208	        90.7	2,766.114
1972	458.022	25.8	1,318.681	        74.2	1,776.703
1973	462.511	26.8	1,263.690	        73.2	1,726.201
1974	202.358	2.0	9,755.065	        98.0	9,957.422
1975	1,255.690	54.1	1,066.856	        45.9	2,322.546
1976	2,371.062	29.6	5,642.217	        70.4	8,013.279
1977	2,533.498	40.6	3,704.847	59.4	6,238.345
1978	2,290.425	44.2	2,892.682	55.8	5,183.107
1979	2,114.829	16.5	10,706.63 83.5	12,821.47
1980	1,933.456	44.0	2,460.025	56.0	4,393.481
1981	1,710.703	35.3	3,134.796	64.7	4,845.499
1982	1,689.373	36.5	2,934.395	63.5	4,623.769
1983	1,575.989	31.6	3,412.969	68.4	4,988.958
1984	1,761.518	34.9	3,290.747	65.1	5,052.265
1985	3,656.572	58.2	2,625.164	41.8	6,281.736
1986	3,478.835	52.4	3,156.679	47.6	6,635.514
1987	2,142.092	40.0	3,213.138	60.0	5,355.230
1988	2,075.406	40.0	3,113.110	60.0	5,188.516
1989	1,998.002	40.0	2,997.003	60.0	4,995.005
1990	1,918.805	39.0	2,995.076	61.0	4,913.881
1991	2,862.005	50.1	2,849.808	49.9	5,711.813
1992	1,824.487	39.3	2,812.515	60.7	4,637.002
1993	1,770.434	36.2	3,119.191	63.8	4,889.624
1994	1,733.853	40.0	2,604.856	60.0	4,338.709
1995	1,704.867	40.0	2,553.813	60.0	4,258.680
1996	1,846.197	42.3	2,513.317	57.7	4,359.513
1997	1,867.248	43.2	2,458.077	56.8	4,325.325
1998	1,722.746	41.5	2,424.747	58.5	4,147.492
1999	1,527.630	37.9	2,497.898	62.1	4,025.529
2000	1,331.149	26.5	3,700.625	73.5	5,031.774
2001	1,082.265	30.0	2,531.169	70.0	3,613.434
2002	909.710	26.1	2,580.314	73.9	3,490.024
2003	805.946	17.5	3,788.713	82.5	4,594.658
2004	666.198	20.5	2,590.928	79.5	3,257.127
2005	558.592	17.8	2,585.620	82.2	3,144.211
2006	320.245	11.2	2,530.343	88.8	2,850.587
2007	182.897	6.7	2,548.981	93.3	2,731.877
2008	47.131	1.8	2,533.307	98.2	2,580.438
2009	42.331	1.7	2,502.879	98.3	2,545.210
2010	37.725	1.3	2,912.558	98.7	2,950.284
2011	37.735	1.2	3,064.600	98.8	3,102.334
2012	25.060	0.8	3,075.000	99.2	3,100.060
Sorry for crummy formatting. 
--FeralOink (talk) 11:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary source data from [[USAID]] 

message: Shouldn't there be one? There is one about United States foreign aid, Israel–United States military relations and Israel–United States relations. But not one specifically about the military and economic aid given to Israel. I think there should be one because it is a huge topic. But I'm not prepared to write that page. You could "refactor" the aid part from the other pages to that new one. ImTheIP (talk) 21:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate page for US-Israel aid 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-us-establishes-permanent-military-base-in-israel/
Sammartinlai (talk) 02:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A US base in Israel 

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