Talk:Zinfandel

message: I simply added the name of two wineries that make significant contributions to this unique grape.  Martinelli whose Jackass and Jackass Hill are considered to be among the best of big style zins and Seghesio whose makes a wide range of fine zins from bargain to excellent signle viyard wines.
On a more controversial note, I believe the statement that Zin is thick skin; and, therefore, survived prohibition is incorrect.  Zin is very subject to rot because of its tight clusters.  It did not ship well and the amount shipped back east for home wine making declined throughout prohibition.  It was prized by local, California, home wine makers and this is why it survived prohibition.  My source is the book Zinfandel by Sullivan.
:Hearing no response to my above comment:  I made the changes to why Zin survived prohibition.  The source for the effect of zin's thin skinned tight bunches on transportability is Zinfandel by Charles Sullivan.--Veniceslug1 02:57, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two wineries 

message: "port"  should probably be place in quotes are changed to port like.  A port is a fortified wine from Oporto, Portugal; and. therfore is never made from Zin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.54.10 (talk • contribs) 2006-02-13
: "Port" is one of those terms that the EU considers a protected designation, but which the USA treats as a generic term.  Among the people I know they would all refer to a port-style wine as "port", regardless of where it came from.  I think if you reserve the term for port from Oporto you sacrifice clarity to be pedantic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.119.42 (talk • contribs) 2006-04-22
:: Nooo. Not only are you incorrect - UK Wikipedians would only ever use 'port' to refer to the stuff from the Douro, regardless of EU rules - but as a formal encyclopedia Wikipedia should use the 'formal' terms. 82.14.66.100 (talk) 04:21, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That "formal" definition only applies in the EU.  Articles should reflect common usage too. —dgiestc 06:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. See Protected designation of origin. Although the US refuses to recognise these protected names, they should certainly not be capitalised if the name refer to US-origin wines, per champagne, parmesan, etc which are only ever capitalised (because PDO status = placename = proper noun) for the genuine article. If you want to write it as "port", I suppose that maybe common usage but I'd suggest using inverted commas ("port") to avoid confusion with wet places where ships dock ;o) --mikaultalk 08:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Articles should reflect common usage. I think it would be reasonable either to display the generic term in lowercase as mikaul suggests, or to use clearer descriptors. So "port" could be written as "port style" when referring to American ports, "champagne" should probably be called "sparkling wine" when referring to that product, and so on. At least we don't call all Chardonnays "Chablis"! -Amatulic (talk) 20:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Port?

message: The photo of a bottle that Agne27 inserted into the article is neither illuminating, helpful, explanatory, nor representative of Zinfandel wine labels (it's ugly too). And it's clearly a Ridge Winery bottle, which amounts to inappropriate advertising. This article is about the Zinfandel varietal; the grape not the wine, so a picture of a wine bottle adds nothing of value. If nobody can offer a compelling reason to keep it, it should be removed. Amatulic 01:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As someone who personally can not stand the over-oaked fruit boom that is Ridge Zin, it was certainly not meant for advertizing. The meaning of the photo is to be an example of a bottle of Zin--a visual reference of a California Zin with varietal labeling that also gives note to it's Sonoma terrior. It's human nature to want to visualize something and it help to break up the monotony of paragraphs of text. I agree with you on the "ugly" part. My preference would be to have a picture of "Cardinal Zin"--one of the best wine names and colorful labels IMO. If anyone can get a copyright-safe picture of a different bottle to replace it, feel free. However, I wouldn't just remove the photo without having a better substitute to replace it. Agne 06:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still don't see a compelling reason to keep it. As I said, this article is about the grape itself, not the wine. A picture of a barrel or a wine glass might serve the purpose better. There is no way anyone will ever agree on what would be a representative bottle of Zinfandel -- Sonoma Zins certainly don't set any standard (to me Amador Zins are far superior) -- and any label one could display would still create advertising or copyright problems. I have Zinfandel bottles with no label at all, but what good would that be? It's better to remove the picture. So what if the article is paragraphs of text? It's an encyclopedia; having lots of text is expected and normal. Provide a wine glass or barrel if you want, but even then I don't see the encyclopedic value in this article. Amatulic 01:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos should be meaningful 

message: I have made major revisions to this article, breaking it up into sections, expanding on the history and ancestry of Zinfandel (which allowed a mention of Grgich as requested above), and replacing the picture of the wine bottle with a picture of Zinfandel's ancestor vine. I took this picture myself when I visited the vineyard in Croatia recently, and I put it in public domain. I added personal POV notes to the summary of this picture because I thought they may be of interest but not appropriate for the article, but if they're inappropriate in the picture summary feel free to remove them. I think as "author notes" they're probably okay.
The additional information on history and ancestry I gathered from Croatian literature given to me personally by Ivica Radunić, the owner of the vineyard where Zinfandel's ancestor was discovered. I also include a reference to the account of Zinfandel's genetic history by Carole Meredith (the genetecist who discovered it).
Amatulic 15:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins Research 

message: The tone was highly US-centric, so I ended up completely rewriting it pretty much from scratch in accordance with WP:CSB, expanding the history section with more stuff from Sullivan and generally tidying it up.  Could do with more on the different local styles, but it's a comfortable B now.  I don't know if White Zinfandel is worth merging in, I understand that it's a distinct style but there's got to be a lot of overlap.  I'm 60:40 in favour of a merge, but not that fussed. 82.14.66.100 (talk) 04:21, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great work. I added some fact tags to some areas that we could improve sourcing on. I will gladly help with finding those sources over the next couple days. AgneCheese/Wine 08:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I went through and added what sources I could. I'll keep looking for some more so that we can get this article in good shape for GA. AgneCheese/Wine 16:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: As a veteran GA reviewer and a project member, I can tell you right now that the article would at present be quick-failed if you nominated it. We need to make sure that any cleanup banners (like the NPOV one now present) are removed before nominating for GA. Just thought I'd put a reminder up so the article is at least given an in-depth review. Cheers, VanTucky talk 20:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, we know, it's going to take a few days to get stability on that section in any case. So I think I'm going to leave the proposal until I get back from the Christmas festivities.  Whilst you're here, do any other things jump out at you from the failing-GA (or FA even?) point of view?  Better to get them sorted before going to review if possible, although we have to leave something obvious in there so that the reviewers have something to complain about. :-)))) FlagSteward (talk) 03:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important note on GA 

message: Did someone get permission from the University of California Press in order to link the PDF of chapter two from Sullivan's book in the "Further reading" section?  If not, it is a copyright infringement.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 03:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't a copyright violation to link to material that the publisher itself makes available online for public viewing. Hyperlinking is the whole point of the world wide web. If someone other than the publisher was hosting that page, then I agree there would be a copyright question, but not in this case. -Amatulic (talk) 20:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sullivan further reading

message: I appreciate the reply and I see your point but I do think it is very subjective of us to try and come up with our own criteria of what is a notable wine region. I feel very committed to just letting the reliable sources lead the way here as being the least subjective and POV oriented path we can take. I think there is a finite number of areas that a collective number of reliable wine sources would list as "notable" regions (in contrast to wineries which could be infinite). While an external link to the table to show a more comprehensive view of Zin planting is, there is a reason why those 15 acres of Santa Cruz and however many acres of Dry Creek Valley, etc consistently show up in well respected and well known reliable sources as being "known Zin producing areas". There is something unique about the wine from there that, good or bad, is of encyclopedic note to the wine drinker. I trust the expertise of these reliable sources over any subjective criteria we could come up with. The list, as it stands now, is far more neutral than anything we could create by interjecting our own POV in establishing a subjective criteria.
1.) In regards to your concerns about "The article shouldn't present opinions as fact, even when those opinions come from a notable or reliable source.", I would say that we are in a more unique situation due to the fact by sheer human nature "taste" is a personal, subjective thing. We will always encounter obstacles because there is absolutely no way that anyone can describe the taste of anything without it ultimately being classified as an opinion. The fact that chili peppers taste "hot" is, in fact, an opinion though it is a very common opinion and description used to describe the taste and physical reaction to eating chili peppers. But I doubt anyone will argue that we should remove references to "hotness" from any of our chili pepper articles because they are "opinions"?  We do have an encyclopedic duty to describe the wine and describe what makes this particular wine in this particular terroir unique and different from another wine in another area. Yes there are always "exceptions" and there will always be wineries who buck the trend but exceptions are "exceptions" because they are less likely to be encountered than the norm. In order to best maintain NPOV we have to not only throughly remove ourselves and our opinions from the equation but we must also strive to throughly follow the path of our reliable sources and use the "stereotypical descriptions" and not a wine review from a newspaper or blog. The wording is always open for discussion and terms should always be as generic as possible. No one is asking that we include things like "and this wine is really yummy" but we shouldn't go to the point of labeling everything an opinion either to where we are throwing out baby with the bathwater.
2.) In regards to "I'll add that when a source says a county is "known for" producing Zinfandel when hard production data clearly contradicts that source, I'd hardly call the source reliable.", I think you are still giving more weight to "quantity" for notability (being known) rather than "quality" which is what most wine experts and enthusiasts would use more for a benchmark of "being known" for something. For years there was more Carignan and Aramon planted in France than Cabernet Sauvignon and Pinot Noir, yet which grapes is France more well known for. If we use quantity then it would be the former, if we use quality then it is obviously the later. With Zinfandel, do you think wine drinkers are more aware of Zin from the jug wine producing Madera County than Paso Robles, Napa, Santa Barbara and Santa Cruz? Once again, if we use quantity than obvious Madera County Zin is up there with the kings (along with Carignan and Aramon!) and any reader who happens to be a wine enthusiast should never expect to read about or see bottles of wine from those other "backwoods" wine regions or those "obscure" grapes of Merlot and Cap. Excuse me for noting that such logic is a little on the absurd side. AgneCheese/Wine 09:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you can forgive me for pointing out that the source of your problem here appears to be a large dose of bias which is also giving undue weight to the Cali growers. Maybe that's less true on the latter point, as US producers probably do form the most notable group, but it seems there's currently too much detail relative to other countries/regions, on the characteristics of the produce of individual Californian regions. Sorting out what constitutes notability (the "known for" factor) is a big enough hill to climb for now, one that needs settling before getting into any mention of specific terroir and wineries. For this, I'd say you take, as far as is practical, the sum of RS opinion, and where this amounts to only one reliable opinion, leave it out altogether. In other words, Oz Clarke's lone opinion isn't enough; where his and A.N.Other's coincide, I'd say you have sufficient objectivity. If there's not enough written on the subject, QED: it probably does represent overkill, at least for this article. Just my 2¢. --mikaultalk 12:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for forgiveness. It is a reasonable observation. Truth be told, I would love to see more details on notable regions of Primitivo and Crljenak Kaštelanski and have been looking for reliable sources that comment more on that. Hit a little bit of a road block with non-english sources. But I don't know how much of undue weight it is, in proportion to what the average English Wikipedian reader is going to encounter in terms of Zin/Primitivo/Crljenak Kaštelanski. As for the decision about the "known for" factor, I will point out that several sources list many of these California areas (and I could spell each one out in long, laborious details if it comes down to it). The single ref to Clarke was used in the case of simplicity since it adequatedly verified the information in one fell swoop rather than tacking on multiple footnotes to reference the same fact. AgneCheese/Wine 13:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would certainly agree with you on brevity, but this same issue comes up with wine tasting: it's an area so prone to editor POV I'm inclined to be extra careful with descriptors from single sources, no matter how well-renowned. I don't think there's even a WP guideline on the issue, but theres undeniable subjectivity about these things. I remember researching Tempranillo and having to disregard masses of stuff by Penin, writer of the acknowleged Spanish wine "bible", due to the amount of POV inherent in his descriptors. Maybe a compromise (albeit far from ideal) would be some kind of qualification in the text such as "has been described as.." or "regarded as.." which begs the question, "by whom?" rather than badly stating opinion as fact. For most people (myself included!) finding out that it was Clarke's opinion would be all I needed to know, quite frankly. A fantastic series starring OC touring California with a wacky sidekick has just finished on BBC tv, btw. If you ever get the chance to see it, it's probably the best prog on wine I've ever watched :o) --mikaultalk 14:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not a bad idea for a compromise. While the footnote does link to the source, it probably wouldn't hurt to note something like wine expert Oz Clarke (or Jancis Robinson) has said. Unfortunately there are distinguished experts like Karen MacNeil that don't have articles yet. (I suppose I could fix that :p) but it is still a nice way of presenting the credibility of the reliable source without resorting to weasel or peacock terms. I know. I've been watching the development of our Oz and James's Big Wine Adventure article and I'm jealous that I don't get BBC. I'll have to wait for it to get on Netflix or Blockbuster. AgneCheese/Wine 14:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Merry Christmas :o) --mikaultalk 14:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL! Wonderful! AgneCheese/Wine 15:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Could be. My only real concern was the WP:UNDUE thing; bias is everywhere.. and everything else is reading very well indeed. --mikaultalk 14:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Section break

message: I find it quite odd that a user is insisting on putting a globalize tag on the Zinfandel article. The extent of the article's coverage to each wine region is directly proportional to its popularity and relevance in those regions. If you review the Zinfandel section in any wine reference book like The Oxford Companion to Wine, Jancis Robinson's Wine Course and Vines, Grapes and Wines, Evan Goldstein's Perfect Pairings and Oz Clarke's Encyclopedia of Grapes--you will see the proportion of US vs other regions in this article to be quite on par with these expert opinions and works. If anything, this article is a little more skewed towards the European varieties (as the GA reviewer himself noted above) but there is some benefit in adding context and it saves having a few extra stubs. I think the problem is that Zinfandel is a predominantly "American grape" and to an outside person, who may not be familiar with the world of wine, it may seem tilted towards the US when it is given due weight and proportion. Adding a globalize tag to this article is kinda like adding the same tag to Statue of Liberty. While its origins are outside the US, that article is distinctly US-dominated in coverage but it is due weight and proportion to its relevance to the world as a US symbol. In some ways, Zinfandel is a symbol of the American/Californian wine industry. If any editor disagrees, I would like to see specific points of Zinfandel use in other areas that are not covered and perhaps the reliable sources who comment on these sources since the expert written books above do not include anything really beyond what's already in the article. AgneCheese/Wine 18:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Agne. In many cases, there is more to write about grape varieties and their wines in regions/countries of origin than in their New World incarnations. However, this is the case of a variety "getting big" in the New World without first being really notable in the old. Primitivo wines were hardly known outside Southern Italy (or even Apulia) before the connection to Zinfandel was known. Tomas e (talk) 00:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. It's maybe not hard to imagine that it seems US-centric without looking more deeply into it, but a WP page can't have demands placed beyond what is supported by RS, and therefore a globalize tag doesn't seem reasonable. Certainly there must *sometimes* be cases where the US view coincides with a worldwide view of the subject. I'd think when sources allow for it, the scope will widen but that doesn't appear to be the situation now. MURGH disc. 02:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks Amatulic. I was viewing the tag as out of placed in context of the article as a whole but, in hindsight, I can see your point about the lead. Thanks for taking care of that. AgneCheese/Wine 00:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Globalize tag

message: "Austria, which likely obtained the vines during the Habsburg Monarchy's rule over Croatia, after Dalmatia was absorbed when the Venetian Empire fell in 1797."
This isn't quite right. The Venetian Republic fell to France, not Austria, and in 1796, not 1797.  Its territories were transferred to Austria in 1797, in exchange for the Austrian Netherlands.  And more significant, much of Dalmatia had been Croatian, and therefore under Habsburg rule, for centuries before that. 80.176.236.13 (talk) 22:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't say the Venetian Empire fell to Austria, just that it fell, but you're correct about the implication. In any case, there are two sources cited for that statement. The sources give more detail, so the sentence may not have summarized them adequately. Please feel free to rewrite the sentence in a more accurate way that doesn't contradict the cited sources. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither source is specific - I doubt their authors knew the difference between the borders of modern Croatia and of Habsburg-ruled Croatia. Anyway, I have made the sentence correct (I hope), though it is now a bit heavy for the context. Maproom (talk) 10:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dalmatian history 

message: Hi 
I've added South Africa to Zinfandel under Other Locations, but it looks like the way references are added has changed a lot and I am not getting it right. Any help? Regards, Rui Gabriel Correia (talk) 14:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that addition. I didn't see anywhere in the references you cited that there are three Zinfandel-producing estates or that one is rated as a top producer. I rephrased it a bit and changed some citations. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other locations */ Adding South Africa 

message: "Zinfandel is a variety of red grape planted in over 10 percent of California vineyards." - first sentence in the lead - NPOV?? --IIIraute (talk) 06:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I get the impression from the article that the Zinfandel grape is more highly esteemed in the US than it is in Europe. If this is true it would help to explain the presence of this NPOV statement. Maproom (talk) 07:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: This suggests that the origin of the grape if Dalmatia, the origin of the name is from Hungary, and the reasin is a mislabeling:
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/04/02/garden/l-zinfandel-s-origins-390586.html
Timur lenk (talk) 17:50, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  A New York Times Article on the origin