Talk:1st (United Kingdom) Division

message: There may be some merit in combining this article with that entitled 1st Infantry Division (United Kingdom). The MoD  and regiments.org  both seem to see this division as a single division which had continuous existence from 1809 through WW1 (as an Infantry Division) and WW2 (as an Armoured Division). That way you get all the material together in one place in chronological order. Also it is consistent with articles about other Divisions. Please indicate your views. Dormskirk (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, 1st Infantry Division existed during World War II also, fighting in France in 1940, Tunisia in 1943 and Italy in 1944-45. 1st Armoured Division also fought in France in 1940, then in the Western Desert in 1942-43 and also in Italy in 1944. Trying to merge the two articles would be to conflate two formations with an entirely separate existence. The two web sites listed both confuse the issue by using the linkages from 1st Infantry Division from its conversion in the 1960's. HLGallon (talk) 18:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks for this additional information - if the two formations had a separate but simultaneous existance then I agree we should not conflate them Dormskirk (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Should the link to the Battle of Tunis in the second paragraph of the "Second World War" section instead link to Tunisia Campaign?  Assemblany (talk) 02:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice one. I don't think 1st Armoured were around in 255BC!! Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 10:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Battle of Tunis"?

message: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/12143482/Sacre-Bleu-French-general-to-join-British-Army.html
Phd8511 (talk) 06:45, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  French officer to join as deputy 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/62472/data.pdf
Major-General Colin Weir.
Sammartinlai (talk) 09:00, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Additional source. https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/portadown-soldier-promoted-to-lead-top-british-army-division-37246476.html
Sammartinlai (talk) 12:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Dormskirk (talk) 23:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  new GOC 

message: Cooee Cobbers, I am proposing that the article receives a slight overhaul in its structure to increase its cohesion. The proposal looks something like this:
# Formation
# Second World War
# Postwar
# Current history (1990–present)
# Organisation
## Current
## Future
# Battle order
## Second World War
## Afghanistan and Iraq
# General Officers Commanding
This declutters the history section and allows for the narrative to flow. Though you could combine Organisation and Battle order together (not recommended). IronBattalion (talk) 05:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure 

message: There was an RFC to discuss potential restructures to this article and 1st Infantry Division (United Kingdom). However, the RFP ended without any consensus being reached. Rather than the info end-up being buried in the MILHIST archives, I have copied the named sources below, removed some of the editorials, and added at least one more (at the time of this initial edit).
===Argument for the 1st (UK) Div having been founded in 1809===
* The division:
*: Twitter post stating the division celebrated Peninsular Day, when it was founded in 1809. Not just a birthday tweet, the divisional headquarter staff attended a service. (A regional news outlet reported a similar story the year prior)
*: Wilson, P (1985) The First Division 1809-1985: A Short Illustrated History, 1st Armoured Division, Viersen
*: Wilson, P (1993?) The First Division 1809-1993: An Illustrated History (2nd Edition), 1st Division, Hereford?
* The British Army's website:
*: Current version (2022) 
*: 2007 version
*: 2001 version, oldest available that I was able to locate.
* NATO's Allied Rapid Reaction Corps website:
*: 
* Imperial War Museum:
*: 
*: 
* Army Notes, Royal United Services Institution journal:
*: States that the 1st Division was disbanded in the UK in June 1960, the title was transferred to be used within BAOR, and the 5th Division was renamed the 1st Division
* The London Gazette:
*: Gregson was appointed Maj-Gen of 1 Infantry Division in 1955
*: Gregson relinquishes 1 Division in 1959, Hobbs appointed to command of 1 Division
*: Hobbs relinquishes command of 1 Division in June 1960, and Jolly takes command of 1 Division in July
* Various secondary sources:
*: Lord and Watson, The Royal Corps of Signals, p. 25
*: Watson and Rinaldi, The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947-2004, a self-published source/does not meet WP:RS
*: McNish, Messenger, Bray (2000), Iron Division: The History of the 3rd Division 1809-2000, p. 151
*: A Royal Engineer association newsletter, page 7
* Colin Mackie:
*: List of commanding officers from 1902 to present, does not meet WP:RS in my opinion, although author has been awarded for the lists that he has created, and his work are cited all over the wiki including this article. One notes that despite Mackie being the primary source for the GOC list in this article, it does not appear that the article followed his listings (i.e. He lists all 1st Inf Div, 1st Div, and 1st (UK) Div GOCs together.
===Argument for the 1st (UK) Div having been founded in ~1940===
* Charles Heyman
*: Heyman is a defense analyst and a retired British Army major. His regularly updated guide on the British Army (example) and websites associated with him, state that the current division was formed in 1940. This argument has been made since as far back as at least the 1997/8 edition of his work.
===Other===
* General consensus is that the 1st Armoured Division was founded in 1937 as the Mobile Division, and renamed in 1940 to the 1st Armoured Division. Per Joslen, the compiler of the official work on the British order of battle during the Second World War, the 1st Armoured Division was disbanded in 1945 prior to the end of the war.
* A new 1st Armoured Division was formed in 1946, when the 6th Armoured Division (United Kingdom) was redesignated as such, while based in Trieste. It was then dispatched to Palestine, and disbanded in 1947. See Lord, Watson, The Royal Corps of Signals, p. 36
* The 1st Infantry Division was renamed the 1st Division in the late 1950s. It was disbanded in England in June 1960. 
* The same month, the 5th Division - based in Germany - was renumbered as the 1st Division. 
* In the 1970s, the 1st Division became the 1st Armoured Division. 
* The 1st Armoured Division was disbanded and reformed in 1992/3. The division was renamed in 2014 to 1st (UK) Div.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 08:46, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Division's history 

message: * General consensus is that the 1st Armoured Division was founded in 1937 as the Mobile Division, and renamed in 1940 to the 1st Armoured Division. Per Joslen, the compiler of the official work on the British order of battle during the Second World War, the 1st Armoured Division was disbanded in 1945 prior to the end of the war.
* A new 1st Armoured Division was formed in 1946, when the 6th Armoured Division (United Kingdom) was redesignated as such, while based in Trieste. It was then dispatched to Palestine, and disbanded in 1947. See Lord, Watson, The Royal Corps of Signals, p. 36
* The 1st Infantry Division was renamed the 1st Division in the late 1950s. It was disbanded in England in June 1960. 
* The same month, the 5th Division - based in Germany - was renumbered as the 1st Division. 
* In the 1970s, the 1st Division became the 1st Armoured Division. 
* The 1st Armoured Division was disbanded and reformed in 1992/3. The division was renamed in 2014 to 1st (UK) Div.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 08:46, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Other

message: * Armed Forces, I. Allan Limited and the Royal United Services Institute for Defence Studies., 1984, p. 47: "... the Division's newly reinstated emblem of a charging rhinoceros. For many years the Divisional emblem has been a red triangle, originally the emblem of the 1st Division. However, the 1st Division became the 1st Armoured Division in 1978, and it was decided recently that the charging rhino - symbol of the WW2 1st Armoured Division — should be re-adopted. The new emblem now incorporates both symbols".EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:26, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional sources (as found)