Talk:Beaver/Archive 1

message: Found this little gem of poor phrasing in the article.
"These bacteria are hungry for every molecule of nitrogen and phosporous they can grab. In this way, these and other nutrients are fixed into the beaver pond and the surrounding ecology, and are removed from the stream."
While it may be easily understandable. The suggestion of 'bacteria' becoming hungry or 'grab' nitrogen or phosporous compounds is simply un-encyclopedic.
I'm going ahead with a few minor edits. If the community has serious objections just revert.
Roswell Crash Survivor 10:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor choice of words 

message: There seems to be no information on the diet of beavers in the article.
Well, they are completely herbivorous. Dora Nichov 14:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Beaver Diet?

message: Question: Does anyone know how long a beaver can hold it's breath?
I have heard that they can be underwater for 30 minutes...
One of my books says five minutes...61.230.79.242 04:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Breath?

message: Question: Does anyone know how long a beaver can hold it's breath?
I have heard that they can be underwater for 30 minutes...
:15 minutes is the largest observed duration.  Normal diving time is 2-5 minutes normally but can extend up to 15 minutes.  Citations are: 
::Rouland, P. ; Perraud, P. & R. Nozerand. 1984. Le Castor castor fiber L. Bull. Mens. Off. Natl. Chasse.
::Richard, B. 1980. Les castors. Baland,Paris. 168pp. 
::Bau, L. 2001. Behavioural ecology of reintroducted beavers (Castor fiber) in Klosterheden State Forest, Denmark. MSc Thesis. Departement of Animal Behaviour, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
:Egberts 07:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beaver capabilities... 

message: In the dams section of the article, it states that beavers will build dams in the presence of sounds of running water alone.  An anonymous editor changed the content to state the opposite.  Does anyone have a source for this?  My current approach was to revert changes by anonymous and tag the section as disputed pending a citation. --Aranae 03:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: These sources all support the contention that the beavers are stimulated by the sound of running water to trigger damming behaviour.     I couldn't find any reference to the view proposed by the anon editor, so I am removing the factual accuracy tag. AntiVan 00:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: First hand experience shows that beavers being drawn to the sound of the tinyest trickle of running water has been correlated and verified. Egberts 07:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed tag in Dams section

message: After a slashdot reference somebody keeps adding the "Beavers explosively attack people with their menacing teeth. [citation needed] They are the most deadly animals alive" line.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.163.222.96 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 31 January 2006.
It is more than one person, I did it once, and only once, cause it was funny.  Before I could revert it, somone else had deleted it. Somone did it BEFORE the slashdot article was posted, which makes me wonder, are you all SURE that beavers dont explosively attack people?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by  66.92.66.31  (talk • contribs)  04:37, 31 January 2006.
The end of the "Danger signal" section looke as though it may be vandalism:
"As well as Muskrats entering a beaver lodge, human entrance has been practiced as well. Sometimes a first nations member might use a beaver lodge as a hideout if being persued by an enemy tribe, or to sleep in whnen on an extended solo trip." Immediately preceding that "a slap of a beavers tail on land or water sounds similar to a shotgun fire."
The shotgun line was added at about the same time and by the same ip as the other, less believable, note. I'm new to wikipedia; how should I proceed? -- thismatalk 19:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: The beaver attack is a reality but it is certainly not explosive.  The difficulty is in securing documented sources over the net.  This is basically a call to nature enthusiastics to recall articles from various conservations, games and fish magazines.
Scores of trappers have scars reflecting trapped but live beavers and have wisen up to this. Socialite newspapers have commented on scars displayed by trappers as a badge of honor. There is no telling how many trappers have died from this because of their solitary nature of the job.
As a geneologist, there are documented references of beaver attacks resulting in deaths. These sources are witnessed by me in two family bibles (of which I do not have access to anymore).
With my grandfather as a state game warden for Oscoda County, Michigan, he witness two separate attacks against loggers in Ludington county in the 1930s, of which one resulted in a death. Ludington Daily News newspaper has that obituary documented as well.
I also lived on Beaver Island (one of the galepago of islands in northern half of Lake Michigan) and witnessed an attack against an unwitted fawn.
For recent attacks, they have been mostly against dogs and young bears and ONE wolverine. 
Egberts 05:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The pigdog link has a picture of a beaver with a rocket launcher, and links to an article that is no longer available, assuming it ever was.  It is not a reputable source.  I have no reason to doubt your family, but those sources, as you've pointed out, are not verifiable.  I don't think it's necessary to have a source right away for every single thing on Wikipedia, but this issue needs a source because 1) the beaver attack thing has been going back and forth here for a while, with no one coming up with a verifiable reference, and 2) it is not obviously true.  I've already reverted the beaver attack thing once today, so I won't revert it again right away, but please try to find a verifiable source if you want this to stay in the article.  Thanks.  --Allen 05:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Source:Reuters 2000 June 6  WINNIPEG, June 6 (Reuters) - A Canadian farm woman is still shaking after a crazed beaver attacked her two giant Newfoundland dogs named Bonnie and Billy, pinning them against a fence and savaging them. "It pinned them. I never though beavers were capable of that," Sam Pshyshlak told Reuters from her Manitoba farm 100 kilometres (60 miles) north of Winnipeg. "I've lost all respect for beavers. I never would have imagined this from a beaver," she said of the recent incident. She said the beaver "terrorized" her dogs, which weigh nearly 90 kilograms (200 pounds) each. "There was definitely something wrong with it," Pshyshlak said. The thick pelts of beavers were once Canada's main export and the flat-tailed animal has long occupied a place of honor on the country's five-cent coin. Most Canadians see them as cute and industrious but farmers often regard them as a nuisance for the dams they build and the flooding they cause. Pshyshlak said the animal that attacked her dogs weighed about 13.5 kilograms (30 pounds) and tore at Billy's leg and face. "In the shed, the whole floor was pooled with blood," she said. Pshyshlak said conservation authorities said they would try to trap the animal, although she said she hasn't seen hide nor hair of the beaver since the attack occurred.  06:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: JAMA has scores of statistics on beaver infected with rabies each and every year since its publication inception and a scant reports of human being infected by beavers.
  http://depts.washington.edu/apecein/newsbriefs/2002/0006nb11.html
  http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/287/24/3202 06:46, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I have little doubt that a beaver could do some serious damage, and that it could even prove fatal if it hit you just right and you had no access to medical attention.  I think the term "explosively attack" is really ridiculous.  I'm not sure there needs to be much more then a note that beavers are sizeable mammals with a very powerful bite and have been known to injure people (if even that much).  --Aranae 06:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: More sources   Friday June 1 8:52 AM ETHELSINKI (Reuters) - A Finnish wildlife lover survived unscathed after a beaver tried to sink its teeth into his neck as he tracked it along a remote river.
I thought it would be nice to see the beaver jump into a river so I followed it. Suddenly the beaver disappeared and next thing I knew it was hanging on my neck, Penti Jylha said Friday.
Experts say it is rare for beavers to attack people. Usually the shy beasts just escape when disturbed, or slap their tails on the ground if they feel threatened.
Thanks to the cold Finnish summer, Jylha was wearing heavy clothes which protected him from the beaver's long teeth.
When I managed to shake off the beaver it just stayed staring at me from a few meters away, he said. Egberts 07:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted Egberts additions to the article just now before reading this discussion. I apologize for that. However, I think this issue is best discussed here until a consensus is reached on what content, if any, is added to the article. As Allen points out, this issue has a history. The Jama and EINet News Briefs seem to satisfy WP:RS, but do not support the added content. The Reuters citations support the content in part, but I don't know how to access Reuters. Presumably these were republished in newspapers where they might be more easily found? Unless beaver bites can be shown to be a significant public health problem, my view is the same as Aranae. Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Works for me... this is going to take some time for someone to come forward with games and fish magazine excerpts because I've seen my share but don't have them.  Egberts 17:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, this issue has the flavor of an urban myth or bigfoot. I grew up near a beaver dam and I currently live near an urban park that contains a beaver population. I've never heard these stories before seeing them here. Moreover, I've never seen warning signs of the sort that are common in National Parks or urban areas where potentially dangerous wildlife are present. If belief in beaver attacks is notable, it should be straightforward to find references that can be cited. The Reuters news articles are first person accounts with no indication that they were independently investigated. Such accounts are commonly cited as evidence for bigfoot. Game and fish magazines commonly publish stories that are not independently investigated, if I'm not mistaken.However, unless references in reputable public health publications can be found, I don't think we can dignify this with more than a statement of the sort, "Some people think that Beaver attack people and other animals. No support for the view that this is a significant public health problem can be found in the public health literature. Persons should avoid any mammal exibiting aggressive or unusual behavior." The last sentence is from MMWR. 2002;51:481-482, reprinted by JAMA (citation above).Upon reading Egberts text more closely, I find that I agree that the first paragraph of his addition is supported in part by the MMWR citation. However, the MMW article states, "rodents are not a wildlife reservoir for rabies virus and no rabies transmission from rodents to humans has been documented." Also, in 2001 in Florida, the Florida Dept. of Health found that samples from 124 racoons, 34 foxes, ... and one beaver tested positive for rabies. Unless this information is impugned, I don't think it is notable and should not be added to the article. The MMWR article does suggest that rabies is found more often in beaver in eastern states other than Florida. That information, if reliably sourced, may be notable. My guess though is that rabies in beavers is a minor public health problem compared with rabies in racoons or foxes. Walter Siegmund (talk) 19:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Beaver Bites

message: A ferocious beaver attack may be an indication of beavers with rabies. Unlike smaller rodents who die shortly after contracting the disease, beavers can survive long enough to act as a reservoir. In its usual non-infectionous state, a beaver rarely attacks beyond the one or two defensive bites. Observed beaver attacks also have been made against dogs (Seaman_(Newfoundland_dog)), young bears, wolverines, bobcats, rats and fawns.
Human deaths from beaver bites have been recorded as far back as 1642 in geneology archives and family bibles. It is difficult to assess the death rate by beaver bites toward trappers during the wilderness days due to their solitary nature of the job. This trend is inferred by trappers' permanent absense and later a grisly discovery due to a singular but mysterious animal bite by others. Most animal attack sessions by carnivores leave multiple bites, whereas beavers are herbivores and will bite once or twice to make a defensive point.
Today, increased public awareness, medical advancements (tourniquet, rabies shots) and diminished beaver population has greatly reduced this deadly trend to the last reported death by a Ludington Daily News obituary (Ludington,_Michigan) which occurred in 1933 against one unfortunate logger.
Deaths from beaver bites usually result by uncontrolled (but now rarely uncontrollable) bleeding. Egberts 17:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested Beaver Bites excerpts

message: Or so this articler says, yet so does the article on the mara. Someone ought to check the facts.
:Maybe not...  Largest American beaver encountered is 103 lbs where as the Mara is maxed out at 25 lbs. http://sullivansline.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000060  Egberts 07:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Second Largest Rodent?

message: The American beaver is the emblem of the London School of Economics?  Sounds, um, kind of unlikely at first hearing.  Someone please confirm. — Haeleth Talk 23:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LSE? 

message: Beavers do not live in their dams. They build a separate lodge -- either in a dome shape, made of mud and sticks, or dug into the bank of a river. Perhaps a heading just for beaver lodges could make this clearer.
That's true. Many people think they live in their dams, but no.61.230.79.242 04:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lodges and Dams 

message: This article needs a picture of a whole beaver. The first picture has just the face and the other pictures are trees and constructions. Lapinmies 21:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded.  Take a look at the Squirrel article--that's the way to do it.  The only beaver pic here is not very good as the representative picture...you can just barely see the face.  There sure are a lot of pictures of trees here... -Tenfour 05:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: A wide selection of public domain beaver photos and drawings are available in The romance of the beaver; being the history of the beaver in the western hemisphere, by A. Radclyffe Dugmore (1914). Illustrated with photographs from life and drawings by the author. The page images can be printed to file (BMP in Windows) and edited for display in any graphic format. Bkobres 15:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better pictures 

message: There doesn't seem to be alot about them being pests, I think at least a small referance should be made to them knocking trees down on peoples houses and cottages and the method of prevention, a sheet of metal wrapped around the base of the trunk of nearby trees Highlandlord 05:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a line at the end of "Dams" about this, but feel free to add more, especially if you know of any sources to cite.  --Allen 22:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For references all I got are cousins, family friends and seeing it myself, is that a problem? I Noob Highlandlord 06:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pests 

message: On 28 June 2006, I moved the popular culture references in the Introduction to the Popular Culture section and removed the redundancies. 128.193.0.6 restored them to the Introduction. I think this is a bad idea since it gives undue emphasis to such usage in an article that is about an animal. In any case, this information need not appear twice. --Walter Siegmund (talk) 02:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular culture 

message: I understand there to be something about it in the disambiguation page, but isn't it at least somewhat noteworthy that this noble creature has developed some kind of weird association with lady-parts in the English language? ACK-47 02:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dysphemism 

message: The article currently states: "It is both the sound of water in motion and the current that stimulates the beavers to build."
This is proposing an unconscious stimulus-reaction mechanism. Is that supportable, versus the beaver noticing there's a leak in the dam and doing something about it?
--- Yes, there have actually been studies that have shown that beavers in dry pens have begun to build dams upon hearing recordings of flowing water, in a dry pen. However as far as the leaks go, thay always leak. It does not seem that the Beavers goal is to prevent total water stoppage, just enough to create their habitat. 67.142.130.45 04:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, you mean "enough to stop the sound of flowing water" I presume?  Otherwise your comments are contradictory.  --Doradus 15:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conscious Planning? 

message: Humans must continually search for effective methods to coexist in the natural environment our world presents.  This is a huge concern as our population grows and our reliance on the earth to provide food and habitats for the people of the world to live in increases.   
There are many cultures of people and types of animals that must survive finding food and shelter.  Beavers are just one example of this interaction.  Beavers have to create a habitat to live in. This habitat can be found near creeks and streams or other bodies of water.  Problems tends to arise when people live near these creeks and rivers where the beavers have worked to create the habitat they need to exist.  When the beavers build dams, adjacent yards and fields can be effected by the altered levels of water.  
===Why they build the dams===
Beavers build dams so they can safley travel in and out of their homes without being vulnerable to prey.  These dams cause the water in the creeks and rivers to flood the surrounding area upstream from the beaver's dam.  In order to prevent this flooding from happening some people take action into their own hands by killing or trapping the beavers.  Others leave the beavers alone and let nature take its course.  
I believe that with innovative ideas beavers and humans can coexist without conflict.  Many naturalists want to attempt to restore streambeds to a condition that would naturally attract beavers.  However, that change could create problems for the stream structure and the surrounding suburban areas. One idea, called a “beaver deceiver,” is described in “The Solutions to Beaver/Human Conflicts”.  This method has been used for beaver-proofing parts of Vermont.  This is a device that will maintain the level of water so the beaver's needs are met for its home and safety while not flooding the farmer’s crop fields or neighbor's back yards.  This method permits the beaver to live in a healthy habitat while allowing crops to grow in adjacent fields.
===What is a Beaver Deceiver===
The Beaver Deceiver is made of cedar posts and wire fencing, consisting of 6-inch squares.  These devices are intended to prevent the beavers from bringing large logs and sticks to build their dams and thus clog up waterways.  Their suggestion is to put drainage pipes, better known as PVC pipes, throughout the middle of the dams so that the water keeps flowing through the dams.  In addition to the PVC pipes, a fence or some sort of cover would need to be built so the beavers do not attempt to build around the drainage pipes which would clog the pipe. The one small drawback to this method is that it requires seasonal maintenance to unclog the pipes.
These devices can work for individual situations, but are not as effective on a large scale.  Some people believe that the beaver deceiver is only a temporary fix and the adjacent areas will eventually be affected by beavers.  
This method has been developed by researchers in an attempt to maintain the existing environment while allowing animals in nature to thrive.  Each situation with beavers building dams is different which presents an opportunity for people to find other soultions to problems according to their own circumstances.  
===References===
“Solutions of Bever/Human Conflicts”, http://www.beaversww.org/solutions.html 12/17/2004
Castor Canadensis Then Waterman and Hill-Traveller’s Companion, a Netural Events Almanac, Why Beavers Build Dams, http://naturealminac.com/archive/beaver_dams/beaver_dams.html (2003). Jim Jung 
--PeregrineAY 06:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but it seems to me that this content is specific to C. canadensis and may better be discussed on that talk page. The second link has a typo, by the way. It should be http://naturealmanac.com/archive/beaver_dams/beaver_dams.html. It seems to be a book advertisement that may not be suitable for Wikipedia. See WP:SPAM for the guideline. It contains good low-resolution images and uncited content. Currently, it serves as a footnote in the article. It would be helpful to track down the citation to the scientific journal wherein the research that it describes was published. Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 14:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  article from [[Beaver Control]], some information able to be moved into [[Beaver]]? 

message: “Solutions of Bever/Human Conflicts”, http://www.beaversww.org/solutions.html 12/17/2004
Castor Canadensis Then Waterman and Hill-Traveller’s Companion, a Netural Events Almanac, Why Beavers Build Dams, http://naturealminac.com/archive/beaver_dams/beaver_dams.html (2003). Jim Jung</blockquote> 
--PeregrineAY 06:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but it seems to me that this content is specific to C. canadensis and may better be discussed on that talk page. The second link has a typo, by the way. It should be http://naturealmanac.com/archive/beaver_dams/beaver_dams.html. It seems to be a book advertisement that may not be suitable for Wikipedia. See WP:SPAM for the guideline. It contains good low-resolution images and uncited content. Currently, it serves as a footnote in the article. It would be helpful to track down the citation to the scientific journal wherein the research that it describes was published. Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 14:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: I haven't read the through the entire section, but I'm sure it violates a load of copyright laws, and it's mostly redundant.  There were one or two facts that looked like they weren't mentioned before -- perhaps they should be merged?
Some of the dam photos are good, and would work better in a gallery if there isn't room to place them inline with the text. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chuuumus (talk • contribs) 19:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done a bunch of merging and re-sectioning and cleanup - no factual changes, just formatting ones, really. Jennifer Brooks 22:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1911 Encyclopedia section? 

message: Can we confirm this?  If not, maybe we ought to remove it, as weirdly plausible as it sounds.  --Doradus 14:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dictionary.com shows the etymology of both Castor and castrate.  Interestingly enough, it looks like the Latin use of Castor was derived from the mythological hero/god involved in medicine and the use of castoreum in medicine.  Castor was derived from the Greek Kastor which means "one who excels".  Kastor is also Greek for beaver (due to their industriousness?).  So the name came full circle.  Presumably the Romans knew of this connection and that's probably part of the reason Castor started to take over for fiber as the Latin for beaver.  Meanwhile castrate derives from Latin castrare which means to castrate.  They may connect with another step or two further back in time.  I think trying to see if the Greek root of the Latin castrare connects to beaver is needed.  It would take more work than the online dictionary, though.  --Aranae 16:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Castration 

message: Somebody has deleted this page and replaced with 'LIAM IS BEAVER...' --Arithmia 21:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Vandalism 

message: I think the article American Beaver should be merged into this one.. 131.111.24.187 17:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: The article mentions the early 19th century near elimination but does not mention anything about the reintroduction efforts and conservation. I remember reading an old US Geological Survey report from the early 1900's that mentions that the beaver was "of conservation concern" and that "re-introduction efforts continue throughout its historical range". Can anyone find other references to this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.251.52 (talk) 02:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This ref. (page 97) gives 60 to 400 million as a population estimate prior to European arrival.
The Beaver: Natural History of a Wetlands Engineer
By Sun, Lixing, Dietland Müller-Schwarze
Published 2003
Cornell University Press
Bkobres 03:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reintroduction and early conservation

message: ... of beavers are there in the world today?
66.68.210.249 20:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 2 - european (C. fiber) & american (C. canadensis)Bridesmill 23:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: there's also a "mountain beaver" which is related but I'm not sure how closely. They're water lovers but don't live in it and don't have the tail.Jennifer Brooks 03:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many Species... 

message: Perhaps the striked text could be commented out if it is preferred that it be kept in the current article. <.!.-.-.-.-.> --Emesee 17:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  striked text