Talk:Aleister Crowley/Archive 4

message: Amazon.com now has a "search in book" option for almost all of their books - notably including most of those by and about Crowley.  I wouldn't recommend using these online versions as cites, but this feature gives you the ability to do virtually unlimited text searches in these book - which you can then use to find relevant passages in your hardcopies.  It's like the ultimate index.Psuliin 06:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful Note For ALL 

message: I don't know if AC actually did publish "vicious denouncements of the people whose cultures had produced" the teachings he stole, at least not in any way that would contradict his respect for foreign teachings and teachers. Allow me to explain. First, he does not call Indians "inferior animals" as the paragraph suggests. He puts that phrase in the mouth of others and suggests that he considers it dishonest or foolish: To begin with, they cannot stand the climate, which compels them to live lives whose inevitable tendency is to relax the moral fibre. Thus even highclass memsahibs sometimes have themselves bathed by their beras. The excuse is that any sexual irregularity with such inferior animals is unthinkable.  I've already reproduced the context for this passage and the article's misleading isolated quote about "moral superiority". We don't know if he meant what he said, or offered some or all of it as a Modest Proposal to people who wanted to keep ruling India, but we do know he explicitly rejected the 'white man's burden' garbage about bringing our superior culture to that subcontinent. Second, the following quotes on the subject of Jews and Chinese (from the pages that the article cites as evidence of "racist statements") do not seem racist in the original sense of calling one race inherently or uniformly better than another. Not one of them blames the alleged negative traits on genetics. Instead they mention cultural factors, specifically the effects of suffering and oppression:
:::They (the "lower class" Chinese) respect any man who acts as their own mandarins act; with absolute lack of sympathy, justice or any other human feelings. They treat the traveler well in proportion as he is overbearing, haughty and avaricious. 
and
:::I do not believe that their universally admitted baseness is due to a mixture of blood or the presumable peculiarity of their parents; but that they are forced into vileness by the attitude of both their white and coloured neighbours. A similar case is presented by the Jew, who really does only too often possess the bad qualities for which he is disliked; but they are not proper to his race. No people can show finer specimens of humanity. The Hebrew poets and prophets are sublime. The Jewish soldier is courageous, the Jewish rich man generous. The race possesses imagination, romance, loyalty, probity and humanity in an exceptional degree.
:::But the Jew has been persecuted so relentlessly that his survival has depended on the development of his worst qualities; avarice, servility, falseness, cunning and the rest. Even the highest-class Eurasians such as Ananda Koomaraswamy suffer acutely from the shame of being considered outcast. The irrationality and injustice of their neighbours heightens the feeling and it breeds the very abominations which the snobbish inhumanity of their fellow-men expects of them. 
All of that belongs in the article. (On the other hand, we don't need Sutin to tell us that AC slanderously accused Jews of child-murder in Book Four. That work appears online, bigotry and all.) Meanwhile, I could make a case that AC held racist beliefs about blacks. But I don't think the words "Black School" or "Black masters" belong in the article unless we explain what he could have meant (see here and here), which would take rather a lot of space. Dan 21:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you about references to "Black Schools," the "Black Brothers," etc.  That had nothing to do with race, but might be a little too complicated for this article.  I don't quite agree with you (or with Sutin) about Crowley's "anti-semitic" remarks in Liber ABA.  If you read the hardcopy version you see that Crowley added a footnote to that comment in which he suggested that allegations of the blood libel were mistaken.  As the editor points out, Crowley's meaning in that passage is likely more complex than it looks on the surface.Psuliin 06:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: racism vs bigotry

message: Here are a few things that need to be done on the article, as far as I can see. 
*The bio has not one citation, and is pretty long for no citations. 
*The same for the Thelema and Mountaineering sections.
*The Science, magick, and sexuality section has only one citation.
*I'm still looking for a page number for the citation for this statement "Crowley was a habitual drug user and also maintained a meticulous record of his drug-induced experiences with laudanum, opium, cocaine, hashish, alcohol, ether, and heroin. " in the Drugs section. Also the citation needs to be fixed there, its double cited but is only using one footnote.
*The Susan Strong section is a mess, and has no citations.
*And I'm wondering why there is even a Misc. secton (Miscellany) on this page. Can't we move this to other areas or section of the article?
*The Controversy: racism, anti-Semitism, gender-bias section needs to be rewritten, again. I previously fact checked the section, and I'd like someone with the hard copy to validate that these are not conflicting with the online version (as was suggested before, and also by others). 
*And last, there is an issue of footnotes. Maybe the references retittled to Sources, the footnotes can be called Notes, and the references can be used for the citations. The current section is riddled with notes, on top of the cited sources. 
I'm more than willing to discuss all of this, so we can get the page unlocked and fixed. Zos 19:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strike that, citation (or note) number 8 has THREE sources. Its triple cited and has no page numbers for fact checking. Zos 19:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: One assumes it dates to a time before the Abrahadabra article existed. I probably made the link and forgot it until I checked back here to find a war in progress. So yeah, go ahead and fix it. I'll try to help add some citations. The misc. section doesn't seem unreasonable in theory, but at least one point deserves a longer treatment and context. Dan 03:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues 

message: I've requested that this article be unprotected Here, seeing as how I was the one who supposedly caused it to be protected. Zos 03:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for unprotection 

message: I don't know what the point of the section with this title is. Shouldn't it be integrated into his biography or something? Text preserved below....
:During March 1899 Crowley met, at one of the semi-public performances of MacGregor Mathers' Rites of Isis, an American soprano by the name of Susan Strong (3 August, 1870 - 11 March, 1946). Susan was the daughter of Dennis Strong, an American Congressman and mayor of Brooklyn. She had gone to the UK at the age of 21 and had enrolled in the Royal College of Music, London under the tutelage of the famous Hungarian musician Francis Korbay. Crowley met up with her again in London when she sang the part of Venus in Tannhäuser on 22 June 1899. A torrid romance followed during which Susan swore to divorce her American husband and devote herself to Crowley.  However on her return to the US, around October 1899, she apparently cooled in ardour.  Crowley followed her to New York City in June of the following year, but by then she was already on her way back to the UK to appear in performances of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden. During 1900, while in Mexico City, Crowley experienced an epiphany, during which he transcribed his play, titled Tannhäuser.  He attributed the inspiration of this play to his romance with Susan Strong.
Well, possibly someone intended to use the play as an example of Crowley's relationship with women. (Someone certainly entitled that section "Women".) If so, we could move the gender-bias controversy bit to that section. But if nobody can find an NPOV way to do this, I don't know if the Susan Strong material even belongs in the article. Dan 16:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Susan Strong 

message: Citation number 10, is a quote from Robert Anton Wilsons fiction book Cosmic Trigger:The Final Secret of the Illuminati, p. 62 . 
Now, as far as I knew, fiction books are not to be used, so why is it being used. Anyone? Zos 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I don't think Cosmic Trigger is fiction. Speculation and conspiracy theory, yes, but it is not part of the fictional Illuminatus trilogy. -999 (Talk) 17:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I must be getting it confused with the other book I've read. Huh. Zos 17:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm. As I recall, the three Cosmic Trigger books chiefly contain essays and anecdotes, with some fictional vignettes. --FOo 04:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I was mistaking them for another series of books I've read (and no its not the Illuminatus! Trilogy :p ). Zos 12:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiction Citation 

message: Besides income from his known occupations..., are there any more evidences of him having any other livelyhoods?
I remember he might have called himself the "Fishmonger", did he do work at the markets, In some my fancies I've had, that he could have worked say at a "Expresso Island/Newstand" or maybe at a habidashery or book shop during slow or tough periods in his youth or later in his career. Maybe as an Agent?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.77 (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crowley Occupations All Not Researched? 

message: You could have at least moved my cited statement to another location in the article. Seeing as how the bio section is small and not very chronological, and there is no misc. section anymore...where am I supposed to put it? If this is the case, then the wickedest man in the world statement needs to be moved as well (it came later in life). Zos 17:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies. Hoever, in my opinion, it really didn't fit in the intro. What the article really needs is a whole section on his Abbey days, which your sentence would complete perfectly. Perhaps I could start the section, if you'd be willing to lend a hand...  –Frater5 (talk/con) 16:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will add to the section once I get time. And thanks. Zos 19:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frater5 

message: Shouldnt the Thelema section in this article focus more on the Abbey of Thelema? There is already a main page for Thelema's philosophy. How is this contributing to his bio? I've mentioned before that this section might need to be moved to its main page, for space issues, yet now, since this is Crowleys "life" or biography, it seems like the thelema section isnt supporting any of it. Zos 17:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thelema section 

message: An Anon user put alot of info on the article, in the wrong place, and didnt cite it. I've removed it here until sources are found, and can be integrated into the article. 
:==Full Biography==
Beastly child 
Baptised Edward Alexander but known as Aleister, the young Crowley was born into a family of staunch Plymouth Brethren, a puritanical Christian sect. He was taught that God was all powerful and that the sins of the flesh would be punished in the fires of hell. For the young Crowley, free will was not an option. 
When Aleister was 11, his father died and the boy's feelings towards the church, and his family, turned to hate. He labelled the Plymouth Brethren a 'detestable crew', and it became clear that Crowley was not growing up to be the son his mother had dreamt of when he was caught torturing a cat to test if it had nine lives. 
In his early teens, Crowley's mother caught him masturbating and in disgust called him 'the beast'. Far from being ashamed, however, Crowley adopted the name. At 14, as a way of punishing her, he had sex with a maid on her bed. This marked the beginning of Crowley's sexual life and he was forced to leave many schools, on one occasion because he had caught gonorrhoea from a prostitute. 
Occult practices 
In 1895, Crowley attended Cambridge University and began to publish sexually explicit poetry. A year later, however, a trust fund which had been set up after the death of his father matured, and, freed from dependence on his family, Crowley left university. Three years later, Crowley was initiated into a society called the Golden Dawn, which taught magic, alchemy and tarot. Taking the name Frater Perdurabo (Latin for 'I will endure'), he rose quickly through their ranks. 
Over the next few years he travelled extensively and immersed himself in the occult, eventually growing irritated with the members of the Golden Dawn because he felt they were not taking magic seriously enough. Desperate to perform an extreme ritual, Crowley bought a house, Boleskine, in Loch Ness. 
Once there, he set about performing the Abra-Melin, a high-magic ritual dating from the 14th century. The purpose of this ritual was to have a conversation with the 'higher self', or Holy Guardian Angel. It took six months, and such was its power that nobody had attempted it for centuries. Halfway through this dangerous ritual, however, Crowley met a young society lady named Rose Kelly – and a day later they were married. The Abra-Melin was forgotten and the newlyweds went on their honeymoon to Egypt. 
 
Triumph of the will 
In Egypt, between intense sex sessions with Rose, Crowley practised more black-magic rituals to impress her. Deep within the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid he recited the preliminary invocation of the occult ritual called Goetia. It had unexpected consequences. 
Rose, who had previously known nothing of the occult, began to chant. In a trance, she repeated 'They are waiting for you' over and over. Crowley was irritated and sceptical of his new wife and her previously hidden clairvoyant skills but she went on to tell him that he had offended the Egyptian god Horus by not finishing the Abra-Melin. Crowley quickly set about an invocation, and a strange voice identifying itself as Aiwass began to speak in their hotel room. 
For three days, between the hour of midday and 1pm, Aiwass spoke and Crowley wrote. The result was The Book of Laws. Believing himself to be the messiah of a new epoch, Crowley swore that he would perform depraved acts and learn to love them. Christianity was dead, he declared. His new religion had one all-powerful doctrine: 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.' Free will, denied to Crowley as a child, had now become all powerful. 
Magick and sex 
While in Egypt, Rose found out that she was pregnant and later gave birth to a daughter, Lola Zaza. Later, on a trek in Vietnam, Crowley abandoned them both, however, and his daughter died of typhoid – a tragedy that Crowley blamed on Rose and her increasing alcoholism. Left alone in grief, she descended into madness. She would not be the last lover of his to do so, nor was Lola Zaza the only child of his to die. 
Crowley penetrated deeper into the world of the occult, taking another lover, this time the male writer Victor Neuberg. Together they travelled to Algeria and the Sahara to perform an Enochian ritual to summon up Chorizon, the demon of the abyss. This rite is said to open the gates of hell. 
Eventually, like Rose before him, Neuberg was left psychologically ruined. For Crowley their time together was more productive, however. His intense sex sessions with Neuberg had convinced him of the power of sex magick. From then, his two obsessions were married: sex and the occult. 
  
Treason and depravity 
Crowley went on to become the world head of the Ordo Templi Orientis, or Order of the Eastern Temple, and he further defined his own religion, Thelema. 
After the outbreak of the First World War, Crowley was rejected by the British intelligence service and – in a huff – turned to the Germans, supporting them by writing anti-British propaganda. This made him an outcast in Britain and in 1920, two years after the war ended, he went to Cefalu in northern Sicily and created a temple in an old farmhouse with his new mistress Leah Hirsig. They had a child together, and under the influence of opium and cocaine they founded a new religious cult. 
Stories of depraved sexual acts at the abbey quickly began to circulate, one of the most notorious involving Leah. A goat was sacrificed while penetrating her. She, and many others, were becoming severely unbalanced and addicted to drugs, and Crowley himself was increasingly dependent on heroin and cocaine. In this environment, Crowley and Hirsig's child died. She had a nervous breakdown. 
Decay and disillusion 
The end of the Abbey came when Raoul Loveday, one of Crowley's disciples, died after drinking the blood of a cat. Mortified, his wife Betty May fled back to England and sold her story to the press. The British media immediately dubbed Crowley 'the wickedest man in the world'. The temple was disbanded and many of Crowley's former disciples went mad or committed suicide. Leah Hirsig turned to prostitution. Finally, in 1923, a year after Crowley published his Diary of a Drug Fiend, Benito Mussolini, the Italian dictator, had him deported. 
Crowley went on to publish more books – such as Magick: In theory and practice and his Confessions – but his reputation had been damaged. As the years passed he began losing touch with reality. He spent his final years penniless, a sad figure living on the favours of friends. A chronic heroin addict, he died in Hastings in 1947, disillusioned and questioning the philosophies he built to escape his repressed Christian upbringing. 
In his own words
 
'I have successfully eliminated the danger of obsession by sexual ideas in this way: I refuse to admit that it is the fundamental truth. Science in failing to follow me so far has destroyed the idea of religion and the claim of mankind to be essentially different from other mammalia. The demonstration of anthropologists that all religious rites are celebrations of the reproductive energy of nature is irrefutable; but I, accepting this, can still maintain that these rites are wholly spiritual. Their form is only sexual because the phenomena of reproduction are the most universally understood and pungently appreciated of all. I believe that when this position is generally accepted, mankind will be able to go back with a good conscience to ceremonial worship. I have myself constructed numerous ceremonies where it is frankly admitted that religious enthusiasm is primarily sexual in character. 
I have merely refused to stop there. I have insisted that sexual excitement is merely a degraded form of divine ecstasy. I have thus harnessed the wild horses of human passion to the chariot of the Spiritual Sun. I have given these horses wings that mankind may no longer travel painfully upon the earth, shaken by every irregularity of the surface, but course at large through the boundless ether. This is not merely a matter of actual ceremonies; I insist that in private life men should not admit their passions to be an end, indulging them and so degrading themselves to the level of the other animals, or suppressing them and creating neuroses. I insist that every thought, word and deed should be consciously devoted to the service of the Great Work. "Whatsoever ye do, whether ye eat or drink, do all to the glory of God."'
 
*I hope we can work to fit this is. Zos 02:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see a number of demonstrably false statements as well as biased wording. Possibly someone could summarize the long quote. Dan 01:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, as I said, this was done by an anon user, and it was added in the wrong area at that. Its too long to quote as well and I'm waiting to see if the anon is going to come back and comment. Zos 01:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awaiting Sources 

message: Aside from the anon user's additions, and getting back to the original bio section, I'd like to request some citations. I wont remove the content from the article just yet, but will address them here first. If no citations are given within a reasonable amount of time (a few days or so), I'll remove it. I'm also awaiting a few bio-books on Crowley to come via mail, so this is in an iterest of good faith here, as I have already removed uncited material and replaced it with citations in the early years and mystical begginings section.
(early years section)
*His father, Edward Crowley, once maintained a lucrative family brewery business and was retired when Aleister Crowley was born. His mother, Emily Bertha Bishop, drew roots from a Devon and Somerset family[citation needed].
*He grew up in a staunch Plymouth Brethren household. His father, after retiring from his daily duties as a brewer, took up the practice of preaching at a fanatical pace. Daily Bible studies and private tutoring were mainstays in young Aleister's childhood; however, after his father's death, his mother's efforts at indoctrinating her son in the Christian faith only served to provoke Aleister's skepticism. As a child, young Aleister's constant rebellious behaviour displeased his devout mother to such an extent she would chastise him by calling him "The Beast" (from the Book of Revelation), an epithet that Crowley would later happily adopt for himself. He objected to the labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful"[citation needed].
(golden dawn section)
*Involved as a young adult in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, he first studied mysticism with and made enemies of William Butler Yeats and Arthur Edward Waite. Like many in occult circles of the time, Crowley voiced the view that Waite was a pretentious bore through searing critiques of Waite's writings and editorials of other authors' writings.
*His friend and former Golden Dawn associate Allan Bennett introduced him to the ideas of Buddhism, while Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers, acting leader of the Golden Dawn organization, acted as his early mentor in western magick but would later become his enemy. Several decades after Crowley's participation in the Golden Dawn, Mathers claimed copyright protection over a particular ritual and sued Crowley for infringement after Crowley's public display of the ritual. While the public trial continued, both Mathers and Crowley claimed to call forth armies of demons and angels to fight on behalf of their summoner. Both also developed and carried complex Seal of Solomon amulets and talismans.
*In a book of fiction entitled Moonchild, Crowley later portrayed Mathers as the primary villain, including him as a character named SRMD, using the abbreviation of Mathers' magical name. Arthur Edward Waite also appeared in Moonchild as a villain named Arthwaite, while Bennett appeared in Moonchild as the main character's wise mentor, Simon Iff.
*Crowley, in magical garb, displaying the "horns of Pan"While he did not officially break with Mathers until 1904, Crowley lost faith in this teacher's abilities soon after the 1900 schism in the Golden Dawn (if not before). Later that year, Crowley travelled to Mexico and continued his magical studies in isolation. AC's writings suggest that he discovered the word Abrahadabra during this time.
*In October of 1901, after practising Raja Yoga for some time, he said he had reached a state he called dhyana — one of many states of unification in thoughts that are described in Magick (Liber ABA) (See Crowley on egolessness). 1902 saw him writing the essay Berashith (the first word of Genesis), in which he gave meditation (or restraint of the mind to a single object) as the means of attaining his goal. The essay describes ceremonial magick as a means of training the will, and of constantly directing ones thoughts to a given object through ritual. In his 1903 essay, Science and Buddhism, Crowley urged an empirical approach to Buddhist teachings.
*He said that a mystical experience in 1904 while on vacation in Cairo, Egypt, led to his founding of the religious philosophy known as Thelema. Aleister's wife Rose started to behave in an odd way, and this led him to think that some entity had made contact with her. At her instructions, he performed an invocation of the Egyptian god Horus on March 20 with (he wrote) "great success". According to Crowley, the god told him that a new magical Aeon had begun, and that Crowley would serve as its prophet. Rose continued to give information, telling Crowley in detailed terms to await a further revelation. On April 8 and for the following two days at exactly noon he heard a voice, dictating the words of the text, Liber AL vel Legis, or The Book of the Law, which Crowley wrote down. The voice claimed to be that of Aiwass (or Aiwaz "the minister of Hoor-paar-kraat," or Horus, the god of force and fire, child of Isis and Osiris) and self-appointed conquering lord of the New Aeon, announced through his chosen scribe "the prince-priest the Beast."
*Portions of the book are in numerical cipher, which Crowley claimed the inability to decode (Setian Michael Aquino later claimed to be able to decode them). Thelemic dogma (to the extent that Thelema has dogma) explains this by pointing to a warning within the Book of the Law — the speaker supposedly warned that the scribe, Ankh-af-na-khonsu (Aleister Crowley), was never to attempt to decode the ciphers, for to do so would end only in folly. The later-written The Law is For All sees Crowley warning everyone not to discuss the writing amongst fellow critics, for fear that a dogmatic position would arise. While he declared a "new Equinox of the Gods" in early 1904, supposedly passing on the revelation of March 20 to the occult community, it took years for Crowley to fully accept the writing of the Book of the Law and follow its doctrine. Only after countless attempts to test its writings did he come to embrace them as the official doctrine of the New Aeon of Horus. The remainder of his professional and personal careers were spent expanding the new frontiers of scientific illuminism.
 
*Crowley posing as the Bodhisvattva HoteiRose and Aleister had a daughter, whom Crowley named Nuit Ma Ahathoor Hecate Sappho Jezebel Lilith Crowley, in July of 1904. This child died in 1906, during the two and a half months when Crowley had left her with Rose (after a family trip through China) and returned home by a different path. They had another daughter, Lola Zaza, in the summer of that year, and Crowley devised a special ritual of thanksgiving for her birth.
*He performed a thanksgiving ritual before his first claimed success in what he called the "Abramelin operation," on October 9, 1906. This was his implementation of a magical work described in The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage. The events of that year gave the Abramelin book a central role in Crowley's system. He described the primary goal of the "Great Work" using a term from this book: "the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel." An essay in the first number of The Equinox gives several reasons for this choice of names:
*Because Abramelin's system is so simple and effective. 
*Because since all theories of the universe are absurd it is better to talk in the language of one which is patently absurd, so as to mortify the metaphysical man. 
*Because a child can understand it. Crowley was notorious in his lifetime — a frequent target of attacks in the tabloid press, which labelled him "The Wickedest Man in the World" to his evident amusement. At one point, he was expelled from Italy after having established a sort of commune, the organization of which was based on his personal philosophies, the Abbey of Thelema, at Cefalu, Sicily.
*In 1934 Crowley was declared bankrupt after losing a court case in which he sued the artist Nina Hamnett for calling him a black magician in her 1932 book, Laughing Torso. In addressing the jury, Mr Justice Swift said:
*"I have been over forty years engaged in the administration of the law in one capacity or another. I thought that I knew of every conceivable form of wickedness. I thought that everything which was vicious and bad had been produced at one time or another before me. I have learnt in this case that we can always learn something more if we live long enough. I have never heard such dreadful, horrible, blasphemous and abominable stuff as that which has been produced by the man (Crowley) who describes himself to you as the greatest living poet." 
*Aleister Crowley died of a respiratory infection in a Hastings boarding house on December 1, 1947, at the age of 72. According to some accounts he died on December 5, 1947. He was penniless and addicted to opium, which had been prescribed for his asthma and bronchitis, at the time.
*Biographer Lawrence Sutin passes on various stories about Crowley's death and last words. Frieda Harris supposedly reported him saying, "I am perplexed," though she did not see him at the very end. According to John Symonds, a Mr Rowe witnessed Crowley's death along with a nurse, and reported his last words as, "Sometimes I hate myself." Biographer Gerald Suster accepted the version of events he received from a "Mr W.H." in which Crowley dies pacing in his living-room. Supposedly Mr W.H. heard a crash while polishing furniture on the floor below, and entered Crowley's rooms to find him dead on the floor. Patricia "Deirdre" MacAlpine, the mother of his son, denied all this and reports a sudden gust of wind and peal of thunder at the (otherwise quiet) moment of his death. According to MacAlpine, Crowley remained bedridden for the last few days of his life, but was in light spirits and conversational. Readings at the cremation service in nearby Brighton included one of his own works, Hymn to Pan, and newspapers referred to the service as a black mass. Brighton council subsequently resolved to take all necessary steps to prevent such an incident occurring again.
(thelema section)
*The religious or mystical system which Crowley founded, into which most of his writings fall, he named Thelema. Thelema combines a radical form of philosophical libertarianism, akin in some ways to Nietzsche, with a mystical initiatory system derived in part from the Golden Dawn.
*Chief among the precepts of Thelema is the sovereignty of the individual will: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." Crowley's idea of will, however, is not simply the individual's desires or wishes, but also incorporates a sense of the person's destiny or greater purpose: what he termed "True Will." Much of the initiatory system of Thelema is focused on discovering and manifesting one's Will, culminating in what he termed Knowledge and Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel (See: Thelemic mysticism). Much else is devoted to an Eastern-inspired dissolution of the individual ego, as a means to that end (see Choronzon).
*The second precept of Thelema is "Love is the law, love under will" — and Crowley's meaning of "Love" is as complex as that of "Will". It is frequently sexual: Crowley's system, like elements of the Golden Dawn before him, sees the dichotomy and tension between the male and female as fundamental to existence, and sexual "magick" and metaphor form a significant part of Thelemic ritual. However, Love is also discussed as the Union of Opposites, which Crowley thought was the key to enlightenment.
*Thelema draws on numerous older sources and, like many other new religious movements of its time, combines "Western" and "Eastern" traditions. Its chief Western influences include the Golden Dawn and elements of Freemasonry; Eastern influences include aspects of yoga, Taoism, Kabbalah and Tantra.
::As you can see, there is alot of info that is not cited, and should have been upon adding this info. I've been informed that this article is his bio, and as it looks, its not so good. These sections should shade into one another with respect to previous sections. For some reason, thelema is brought up all over the place, he was known for alot more. I hope by the end of this we can get a better bio article in place. Zos 13:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Citations, yes. But how can we give an honest account of anything he did after 1904 without mentioning the system to which he dedicated most of his life? And for the love of Eris, what other verifiable facts that do not appear in the article made him famous? I hope you just said this because of the flow problems in the old "biography" section. Wiki guidelines as I understand them do not identify the article with the biography, they just say to focus on the bio if space requires it. While I feel for our friends on dial-up, I see no need to remove the "Thelema" section entirely. Dan 01:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, simply put, 1904 is when it was dictated, its not when Thelema began. I'm just saying as it was when I posted this, its not at all chronological. And yes its flow problems. I'm not saying remove the thelema section, but its got its own article already, and needs a smaller summary for space issues (since alot more info is going to 
be put onto this article soon). Zos 19:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awaiting more sources 

message: This may be minor points to some but just wanted to throw them out there.  First, since Crowley was in many ways a pretty dedicated Drug addict one could point out that he supported the view that drugs were a useful technique towards religious experience.  As such placing the section on his Drug use in the controversy section right above the sections on Sexism and Racism seems to simplify his drug and condemn it as being ultimately "wrong."  Second, the section on sexism is comprised entirely of quotes from Sutin's book and what both the section & book don't clearly point out, is that regardless of Crowley's personal hangups, his legacy (i.e. Thelema) is quite egalitarian. 
Worlock93
:Forgive me, but who are you responding to? Zos 17:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wasn't actually responding to anyone, (hence new heading, maybe I should have put it at the top?) I just wanted to see if anyone could see what I was trying to say.  Since this article has changed quite a bit over the last year (and gotten rather good actually) I didn't want to step on the toes of anyone who may be a rather dedicated editor of this article. ;) Worlock93 03:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead and do whatever I suppose, if someone doesnt like it, they should bring it to the talk page. I believe I have some things I could cite for his drug use in a bio I just got yesterday, and more on the way on monday. Zos 03:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know what. I failed to read what you were saying. I think the reason its in the controversy section is that not many magicians/magickians (whatever) use drugs to achieve the states of consciousness Crowley did. Most feel its cheating. But I do get your point. If you have citations to say that he used drugs for technique then it should be put on the article. But only if it pertains to his life. Otherwise i'd suggest adding it to the Magick article, as its more on topic there. But if you do in fact add to this article, I'd suggest renaming the drugs section in controvery to "Addictions" or something of the simular wording. Who knows what the future holds for this article anymore :) Zos 04:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy section 

message: Just a thought, but does anyone but me feel we can leave out the header "Mystical Beginnings" and just move that content to "Early years"? It seems a bit off, seeing as how his true mystical beginnings were from the Golden Dawn on. For as 2-3 sources are already saying to me, that he didnt know much of anything until he met Julian Baker and was prompted to join him in meeting wither G. Cecil Jone or Mathers. I'm not sure if reading a few books and proposing that you are an expert in alchemy constitutes as mystical beginnings. Zos 16:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This strikes me as a strange definition of knowledge. His mystical beginnings don't start with books, but with unlooked-for experience that led him to start investigating books. This continued with revelations that led him to focus on the mystical path for the rest of his life. Dan 20:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I removed the "Mystical Beginnings" header. They will do just fine together I think. ---J.S (t|c) 20:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early years vs. Mystical Beginnings 

message: Oh god. I just realized I cant find when Crowley actually joined OTO, just when he became head of the British section. Anyone have any sources for Crowley and the OTO? 
I guess I'll just start on A:.A:. for now. Zos 03:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, well, about that. Dan 03:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok well, I squeezed the header in going by dates. And the Book of Lie only covers so much, it can help, but I'm looking for someone with a bio that I dont have. Zos 03:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I meant to point out that nobody actually knows when he joined the OTO. But I'll add the standard date with explanation. Dan 04:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He joined in 1910, but I cant use the source I have because its not usable here. Its a main web site, and its not aloud. Its here. Zos 04:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  (Edit this section to copy the proper template code for the full cite.) --Geoff Capp 11:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That'll worrk. Plus it doesnt comflict with my sources. Zos 14:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The article does not include your claim about Hitler because the evidence says nothing remotely like that happened. See Sutin, Do What Thou Wilt chapter 10, p 375-380. The L. Ron Hubbard article does mention Hubbard's connection with Crowley, and I suggest you read it closely. Dan 18:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A:.A:. and OTO 

message: I remember hearing at one point (I thought it was in one of his own works) that Corwley had crossed the Himalayas twice, the first time eating his entire crew... is this rumor or at least somewhat factual? Thanks —Memotype::T 13:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AC did not eat people while in the Himalaya. PyrE 06:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Himalayas 

message: Lots of Authors/Poets active in Northern California - Bohemian Club - Did he visit?
Lodge Visits in CA and BC - any paths to retrace? How many visits?
Wrote poem "Big Trees" about the Redwoods. Was this After Hawaii? or Later?
And something about an Coastal Island here? and LAM?
and Pasadena visits? with Hubbard Parsons  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.136.233 (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Coast Visits 

message: To the best of my knowledge a chess master is merely a term for someone who is a very skilled player, and doesn't imply any sort of official qualification or specific standard.
: Actually it does, master implies a record of winning a certain percentage of games against opponents of has pretty strong criteria.  Master is a national title (international master or grand master are international titles). If this helps, the British chess federation was established 1904 and would have had criteria, they are essentially contiguous with the modern FIDE.    The modern criteria (modulo minor changes) date to the early 1950s Kenneth Harkness. jbolden1517Talk 15:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Grandmaster (chess) and International master.  Bubba73 (talk), 15:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  On the other hand, these titles were not formalized until 1950.  They were used informally before that.  Bubba73 (talk), 01:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chess master...

message: [Crowley]published numerous poems and tracts combining pagan religious themes with sexual imagery both heterosexual and homosexual, as well as pederastic
That is a fabrication. Though paederastic poetry was common and indeed occasionally ubiquitous in England in the period from the later Nineteenth to the middle Twentieth Centuries, Crowley himself never created any work, to my knowledge, which could be construed as paederastic. Homosexual, yes - or, more correctly, bisexual - and though some there are who strive to conflate the homosexuality with paederasty, the latter does not feature in Crowley's opus.
Nuttyskin 22:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the reference is to the little-known The Scented Garden, or Bhag-i-Muattar, a collection of verse, written by Crowley and published pseudonomously, on mystical themes using a pederastic sexual relationship between the supposed author and his boy lover as a metaphor for the intercourse (in the larger sense) of Deity with the soul. The facsimile edition I own was edited by Martin P. Starr, and published by Teitan Press, Chicago, in 1991. The original edition was largely suppressed by British Customs, but I believe a copy of this edition is in the collection of the Harry Ransom Center of the University of Texas at Austin. Fra. O.M.M. (talk) 07:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to Paederastic Poetry

message: alister crowly was a mason a evil man
[Neil Gaiman] references him directly in the very first issue of Sandman, where he imprisons the titular hero through "black magick".
Rubbish. In issue one of Sandman, he is imprisoned by a fictional character named Roderick Burgess. On page four, Burgess says "After tonight I'd like to see Aleister and his friends try to make fun of me!" So not only is he not Crowley, he is not meant to represent him as Crowley clearly exists in the universe portrayed in the comic book.
Accordingly, I have removed the line. Pearce.duncan 03:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Burgess is evidently based loosely on Crowley, although equally obviously not the same person. There is a direct reference in "Sandman Midnight Theatre" in which the doormen to Burgess's party greet Wesley Dodds with "Do what thou wilt." Nonetheless, it is not a particularly important reference. --FOo 06:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sandman

message: Maybe it's just me, but the few paragraphs in the popular culture section beg to be put in list form.  The reason I say this is because it will jump from reference to reference without trying to group them together in some fashion.  It makes the whole section seem discombobulated.
And since there is a very detailed related page that does group the instances together, why not just leave the link to the sub-section and shorten the article length?  --Mr Vain 14:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one has objected I'm going to go ahead and shave off that section and leave the link.  If someone disagrees, then simply revert it.  I'm not here for an edit war.  It just looks so disjointed I think it would suit the article better if just the link were there. --Mr Vain 00:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There -should- be a small paragraph there to summarize the "main" article. ---J.S (t|c) 01:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article that I removed tried to summarize it and ending up being scattered in it's attempt.  I suppose one could write something vague and get the message across.  How about this: "Aleister Crowley has been mentioned in various movies, comics, books, TV Shows and in a variety of places on the net."  To me that wouldn't be up to par with the rest of the article and is somewhat undeserving of being put in the article at all.  Unless it is done well, then the article summarizing the appearances in popular culture will just seem like the original, that being really discombobulated without any cohesiveness that a paragraph would need. Thoughts? --Mr Vain 04:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks a bundle.  --Mr Vain 00:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  popular culture section 

message: OK, what happened when he died? Was he buried or cremated. Cremated where? Buried where? Where were the ashes taken? Where are they now? This sort of thing needs to be in this article, can anyone help expand the section on his death? I ask because I also found this: his ashes were either buried under a tree or scattered among trees on a friend's estate in Hampton, New Jersey, depending on whom one believes.  FK0071a 15:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death and burial 

message: Rose Kelly
Mary d'Este Sturges Mary Desti Mary Estelle Dempsey, Mother of Preston Sturges
Jeanne Robert Foster 
Roddie Minor
Marie Rohling
Bertha Almira Prykryl
Leilah Waddell
Leah Hirsig
Jane Wolfe
Ninette Shumway  
Mary Butts
Dorothy Olsen
Maria de Miramar
Patricia "Deirdre" MacAlpine
Frieda Harris
Isadora Duncan
Marchesa Luisa Casati
Helen Blavatsky
Dion Fortune
Evangeline Adams
Sybil Leek
Mary Cunard  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.91 (talk) 21:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wives, Scarlet Women, and Mistresses - female aquaintences section 

message: When Rudolf Hess was captured in Scotland, Navel Intelligence officer and author of James Bond, Ian Flemming, suggests that Crowley interrogate Hess because Hess was an occultist and supporter of Astrology (this is widely known) but Churchill rejected the suggestion. Please someone who can write better than me please add this into the article on Aleister Crowley. FK0071a 15:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ian Flemming and Hess 

message: I'd pay a nickle to see a source for that. :) ---J.S (t|c) 17:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gates and Crowley 

message: Zoso redirects to Zeppelin 4, which says it traces back to Crowley?  How?  Mathiastck 06:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks like original research to me. Unless someone can cite a source which said that, it should be removed. Frater Xyzzy 19:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zoso 

message: Hi Everyone :)  I have been a long-time student of Crowley's work and I love everything that is being done with his page.  I wonder though, why I see no mention of meditation? The first part of Book 4 is soley focused on meditation.  Many of the Libers and exercises from the equinox are likewise.   He wrote "8 lectures on Yoga" as some of his later work.  It seems unbalanced to have so much talk of magic and so little talk of meditation.  Didn't he write about how magick and meditation are inseperable, that it is always preferable to do both?  Anyways, thanks again for the awesome work.<3 (+my2cents)Captain Barrett 04:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This does seem like a problem. The length of the article has pushed out much material. You might expect to find it in Thelema or Thelemic mysticism, but these entries suffer from similar problems. The following text, though, seems confusing or outright false: Although highly under-publicized, Crowley eventually took to practicing only Yoga, giving up all formal ritual magick completely.  During this period he wrote "Eight Lectures on Yoga" and spent time in India.  Part of his stated motivation for the transition from magick to yoga is illustrated by the progression of the Argenteum Astrum degrees.  According to his system, magick is only necessary for the lower degrees. Please give a source and explain what that last sentence means. (The second-to-last degree in the system goes by the name of "Magus".) I think at best the removed text blurs the distinction between one "ceremonial" type of magick and Crowley's broader definition. Dan 05:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crowley and Meditation 

message: Hi all. I run a website devoted to the legacy of Aleister Crowley and which has for twelve years been home to The Aleister Crowley Society. I noted that the Links on this article were generally poor: ill-researched and partisan sites. I therefore posted a link to the non-commercial site I own (LAShTAL.COM), which is considered non-partisan and definitive. The response within hours was an anonymous edit:
07:08, 12 February 2007 217.10.142.170 (Talk) (→External links - remove link added by site owner in violation of spamming policy)
I have no desire to turn this into a squabble, but would appreciate some guidance. Can this really be considered "spamming"?  Lashtal.com 00:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, yes, I think I saw that in the policies somewhere. If you own/run the site, you are not supposed to add the link yourself. Does the site sell anything, take donations, etc? Khabs 05:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aleister Crowley in popular culture.  As that debate may have an impact on this article (particularly when people propose merging), I thought it would be only fair that the editors of this page be made aware of the debate.  Mangojuicetalk 14:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related article nominated for deletion 

message: Does anyone else think we can find a better place for the section on Ouija boards? Judging by the article itself, they don't seem all that important to Crowley's work. The Ouija article has significantly less text than this one, which may leave out more important matters about yoga (see previous discussion). Maybe we should move the whole section there. Suggestions? Threats? Dan 00:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ouija

message: :As I have indicated in the main article, Crowley was an agent of the British intelligence all along his involvement with the Irish nationalist cause and with the cause of German propaganda. The source which claims this is Richard B. Spence, "Secret Agent 666. Aleister Crowley and British Intelligence in America, 1914-1918", International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, 13:359-371, 2000, Taylor and Francis. Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will give some brief quotations, as requested inside the main article. I hope they fall under the fair use doctrine. Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "His writing for The Fatherland, he [Crowley] argued, was <<So blatantly extravagant only a German would have believed it.>>" (ibidem:360) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "But newly available evidence from the archives of the United States Army's Millitary Intelligence Division (MID) confirms official British knowledge and acceptance of his actions, and specifically identifies him as an employee of His Majesty's Government." (ibidem:361) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "Crowley's job may have been more than a mere faux-propagandist." (loc. cit.) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "Finally, the Great Beast's role can be compared to two <<international spies>> active in much the same quarters in wartime New York: Sidney Reilly and Ignace Timothy Trebitsch-Lincoln." (loc. cit.) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "... he [Crowley] and nine companions cruised across New York Harbor in a small launch flying an Irish flag and dropped anchor off the Statue of Liberty. Calling themselves the <<Secret Revolutionary Committee of Public Safety  of the Provisional Government of the Irish Republic>>, the group proclaimed the independence of Ireland and declared war on England." (ibidem:362) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "Whether these antics delighted Viereck is uncertain, but if they were not also intended to lampoon and discredit Irish separatism, they certainly should have been. As such, they suited British interests very well." (ibidem:363) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "[...] the <<Crowley file>> [...] Most disturbing to the authors of these reports was the rumor that Plummer and Crowley were able to communicate with Steiner via telepathy." (loc.cit.) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "[...] the Beast had already been subjected to an inquiry by the Justice Department because of his work for Viereck. [...] <<It was determined that Aleister Crowley was a employee of the British Government ...>> [...] The message seemed quite clear: Crowley was <<OK>> and the Americans should leave him be." (ibidem:364) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "[...] the British consul [Charles Clive Bayley] [...] vouched for him [Crowley] [...]" (loc. cit.) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "Crowley was a man with unique qualities and sources of information in corners where other agents could not or would not thread. He clearly demonstrated his ability to gain the confidence of an important German propagandist [Viereck] and to influence his product. He could also monitor enemy currents in the occult underworld." (ibidem:367) Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I hope that the above quotes show that Crowley was no traitor, but Secret Agent 666, just as James Bond is Secret Agent 007. Tgeorgescu 23:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree with that. However, unless the book specifically justfies any racist remarks, what you've added is original research and doesn't belong in the racism section. IPSOS (talk) 12:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be right. I thought that his monstrous racist utterances could be attributed to faux-propaganda, i.e. make such text sound so ridiculous that every man/woman of common sense would consider it unfair and inappropriate. Tgeorgescu 20:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, seems logical. But you have to find someone else who has said so. Interpolation from sources is original research which isn't allowed in most encyclopedias, which are supposed to summarize existing verifiable knowledge. IPSOS (talk) 20:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, sorry. Tgeorgescu 20:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Secret Agent 666

message: Ok, sorry to be blunt but, who the world thought they were benefiting wikipedia by removing the 2 pictures of Crowley as an old man? It seems this was a wanton act with no reason behind whatsoever. I'm going to asume that it was VANDALISM and not the work of a overzealouse mod. Now can someone find the old pictures and out them back?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.130.215 (talk) 01:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was done by User:OrphanBot, so I'd say it's doubtful it was vandalism--at worst improper actions on a bot's part.  According to them, it was removed since it had no source information.  If you do talk to them, I'd advise taking a more civil tone.  --notJackhorkheimer  (talk / contribs)  19:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, you suggest that I speak to a bot? Yeah, that'll work. If you thought my tone was uncivil here, you should have seen what I was going to post...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.130.215 (talk) 21:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who's smart idea was This? 

message: On the radio talk show A View From Space, November 11, 2007, Toronto talk show host "Spaceman" Gary Bell relays about the mother of the former first lady, Pauline,  that nine months prior to the birth of her third child she was in France:
:Pauline (Pierce) had two young children aged three and four when she decided to have some fun. She left her children and her husband and the States and headed off to France. When she got there, she spent time with her friend Nelly O'Hara and Frank Harris. Frank Harris also had a friend who was none other than Aleister Crowley, the head at the time of the Satanic organization known as the O.T.O. [...] This trip to France took place in 1924, the very same year that Aleister Crowley claims to have first experienced his E.C.L. or "eroto-comatose lucidity" [...] As I said, this all happened in 1924, in early October of 1924 Pauline Pierce after this meeting and staying with Aleister Crowley and her friend returned to the Unites States, and her children, and her husband Marvin. Exactly nine months later she gave birth to a daughter whom they called Barbara Pierce.
__meco 18:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The grandfather of George W. Bush? 

message: i think that it should be put on that the ozzy osbourne song mr.crowley is based on  aleister crowley. he wrote the song when he found a deck of tarot cards designed by crowley in the studio.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.34.159 (talk) 04:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mr.Crowley"