Talk:Ostara (Wicca)

message: Does anyone have any evidence or anything indicating a possible linking of both Ostara and Easter with the Feast of Ishtar?
It seems to me a strange co-incidence if there is no link, as Ishtar was said to descend to earth in the spring in a giant egg.
:It's a bunch of rubbish.  In all lands where "Ishtar" was known/worshipped, the Christian holiday was NEVER called "Easter", "Ostern", or anything resembling such words.  It's called "Passover" (or some variant)--the Greek "Pascha" (usually translated as "Easter" in English) simply is the Greek word for "Passover".  Such speculation regarding Ishtar is purely a modern product of people who do not bother actually doing some linguistic and historical study. Dogface 21:16, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I know from actually having studied history.  So, why do you refuse to sign your comments?Dogface (talk) 01:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

text: 'Said to descend to earth' - 'said to' by whom? What are the sources? Are you actually citing a direct Sumerian source, or a modern neopagan work? Unfortunately, a lot of 'said tos' turn out to be modern invention, *especially* in the case of putative links to the past; and the giant egg business would only be a 'strange coincidence' if it was an authentic piece of Sumerian or Babylonian myth. If you want to look into the history of festivals, I recommend Hutton's 'Seasons of the Sun'. Cavalorn 11:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ishtar

message: ... --Chèvredansante 03:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is already well-sourced, so, on examining the log, I am puzzled as to why you saw fit to add the  template (which I have removed). I've added two footnotes just to be game, but they were overkill and unnecessary.  If there is some specific assertion you'd like sourced, please note it. -SM 14:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sorry. It didn't look sourced enough at the time. Withdrawn. → Chèvredan∫ante talk · contrib 03:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to agree with you before you changed your mind.  I added a number of fact tags to the article.  Jkelly 04:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact tags seem to have disappeared, but there still don't appear to be any cites to speak of.  We have one book (Grimm) that references the name of the goddess, but we're apparently lacking anything for any of the other statements.  I don't necessarily contest those statements - I know from experience that at least some of them are considered by Wiccans to be true - but they do seem to need additional support in order to comply with Wikipedia's reference standards.  Fact tags added - probably ineptly - please feel free to remove them again if they're genuinely not warranted.  Also, reference to Grimm tidied into standard format.  - Shrivenzale (talk) 14:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources Needed

message: "Modern Pagan" is an oximoron; "Neopagan" is not. The Neopagan traditions that celebrate Ostara have been influenced by Traditional Witchcraft (alias Wicca). --→ Chèvredan∫ante talk · contrib 03:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's nothing "traditional" about Wicca. It is not reconstructive and is definitively new age. :bloodofox: 02:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If your goal is to identify Wicca with the New age movement, I suggest discussing that at Talk:Wicca rather than adding it into articles that mention it elsewhere.  I'd recommend bringing along very solid references; it is a contentious claim.  Jkelly 03:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm more concerned about the state of this article than I am in editing this one any further. There's no point in discussing the status of Wicca as "neopaganism" or "new age" - It appropriates various unrelated cultures while largely emphasizing psuedo-Celtic imagery - It's clearly both. What it is not, however, is reconstructive in any manner, which means that whenever it's mentioned in an article with a historical basis, it belongs in a "modern use" section and, furthermore, besides other groups that recognize the holiday and not referencelessly mishmashed all over the article as if it were some sort of "tradition" and not a modern invention. :bloodofox: 03:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pagan versus Wiccan Festival

message: I think we should the poorly written Ostara to Eostre. Much of what is detailed in this entry is actually about Eostre. Feedback? --WeniWidiWiki 03:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. :bloodofox: 03:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggest merge

message: I don't recall ever reading that the God was a brother to the Goddess, especially in Wicca. In fact, the only 'creation' story I have heard was the God choosing to seperate from just being One with her, to worship her (this is only one interpretation). Then the whole cycle starts (which is known throughout Wicca) with them falling in love, the God and Goddess getting married (consumating), having a child, then the God dies (some choose to believe in the Holly/Oak kind or another type of story), but is reborn in the Goddess as her son. I am going to change it, unless someone would like to cite their source and change it back. Thanks. :) Disinclination 04:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  lover-consort-son, not lover-brother-son 

message: I couldn't explain it very well, with only a short amount of words. Ostara, in the Wiccan religion, is always celebrated on or around the Spring Equinox. And the way the editor had put it, saying it was earlier celebrated as a lunar holiday, alludes to Wicca being an older religion than it truely is. If you would like to put it somewhere else on the article, please tell us why on here. Ostara is a solar holiday, it is the returning of the Goddess and the God's power and light. Disinclination 17:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My latest revert 

message: Since when was it celebrated on April 13? I've never heard of this. It's usually the Spring Equinox. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Totnesmartin (talk • contribs) 16:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed it. Thanks for noticing. :) Disinclination 21:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless I've been doing it wrong each year... :) Totnesmartin 22:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  April 13 

message: These appear to be nearly the same article.  Why do both exist?  I think they need to be merged. Aleta 23:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But how many people do really celebrate a festival called Ostara? The people that do will definitely have taken it somehow from Bede or Grimm. I respect the beliefs of these people, but they have a tendency to copy each other without quoting. The primary points the article should mention are basically Bede and Grimm. I've had a similar problem while researching information on Lost lands; There are like 30.000 publications on Atlantis, but all you really need to mention is Plato, Francis Bacon and Ignatius L. Donnelly, since everyone else has copied from them.  Zara1709 16:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am of the opinion that we need Ostara (Neopagan holiday) or somesuch and a separate Eostre entry for the historical hypothesis, along with a strong disambig page. Neopagan and occult fakelore notwithstanding, Ostara has become a part of popular culture, and we've gone around and around about having the Wiccan "Wheel of the Year" and "Sabbat" templates on entries which deal with historical concepts already. - WeniWidiWiki 16:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So basically you propose that we have one article dealing with the supposed goddess Oestre/Ostara and one with the neopagan holiday. I can agree with that. I would than put a short note on Lanz von Liebenfels in the Oestre/Ostara article. People who just want to know something about a neopagan holiday of spring and grown probably don't need to know that it also was the name of one of the worst racist publications ever. Zara1709 17:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, although awhile back there was massive editing to tone DOWN the "Wiccanness" of these articles because they dealt too much with the Wiccan holidays. Disinclination 19:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I redirected Ostara (Easter festival) to Ostara and expanded Ostara (disambiguation). Please take a look and modify or expand as needed. - WeniWidiWiki 19:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Ostara]] and [[Ostara (Easter festival)]]

message: 'This holiday is also celebrated by Neopagan groups who have been largely influenced by Wicca.'
I would disagree with this statement, and the general tone of the article relating this festival to Wiccan movements, as many unrelated Pagan traditions also celebrate this festival, for example Norse. 
DTJNeolithic 02:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 'Influence of Wicca' 

message: Jare was (and is, in Slavic Neopagan community) an important Slavic celebration, that took place on 21 March (each year). Similiarly, the Baltic religion contains the holiday of Jore, which is generally the same. Check eg. the site of Romuva - http://romuva.lt . Why there is no mention about this holiday and yet it's claimed that there was NO Northern European celebration around Vernal Equinox? It doesn't mean, of course, that Ostara is related to Jare/Jore, but gives the reader the wider look. Regards, Critto  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jare/ Jore 

message: -Zara1709 17:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: references