Talk:Macedonia (Greece)/Archive 3

message: Now that that is cleared up - remember what we were talking about -
"Could you show me where the source (1) says “for Greek-Macedonia before its re-incorporation into Greece?” IT DOSENT! It does say, though, “from the new Greek territories.” Is “for Greek-Macedonia before its re-incorporation into Greece” something you made up? Read the source JKelly and tell me if it says “for Greek-Macedonia before its re-incorporation into Greece?” IT DOES NOT, it should read – “OF MACEDONIA before its incorporation into Greece” as the source says – “new greek territories” and as I have documented above. Macedonian876 21:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "re-incorporation" is wrong. It should read "incorporation" because "Greece" did not exist as a political entity before 1829. Andreas 21:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for "re-incorporation 

message: Stop taking the dispute off - we are in a discussion and dispute and about the facts and that is what it is for. Stop being ignorant. Macedonian876 21:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagging and reverting 

message: Stop edit-warring over the "totally disputed" tag.  There is neither an urgent need to have the tag on the article nor an urgent need to remove it.  Discuss concerns here, with more brevity and courtesy.  Messing around with the tag is a silly reason to get blocked for WP:3RR, but I will do it if the level of cooperation here continues to detiorate.  Jkelly 21:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:3RR]] 

message: Hi.  Please don't edit the quote in such a manner that it differs from the text we are quoting.  Whether or not we should use the quote (which I added to the article) is certainly a matter we can discuss.  As long as it is in the article, however, it should be an exact match to the passage from the book that we are quoting.  Thanks.  Jkelly 22:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote 

message: I've added a SVG graphic of the Vergina Sun flag - the previous version's resolution was a little hard on the eyes. Dragases 08:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag 

message: What is the copyright status of the anthem?  What is the copyright status of the translations?  If the lyrics, or that translation, are under an unfree copyright, we cannot have them in the article.  Jkelly 18:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That depends on where User:Makedonas got the lyrics from. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 18:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Makedonas, I understand and respect your opinion about the anthem and the pride that you connect with it. My previous deletion (reverted by MATIA) has nothing to do with this. This is an encyclopedia, and is here to provide information in a concise way. There are many regions in the world where ethnic tensions exist, including the province where I live, Quebec. Greece Macedonia does not stick out in any way in this respect, and should be treated equally. I quote from the Quebec page: The song "Gens du pays" by Gilles Vigneault is often regarded as Quebec's unofficial anthem. Andreas 00:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, many of the so called "Macedonian minority of Greece" actually identify their language (and some even themselves) as Bulgarian :-))) --Latinus (talk (el:)) 19:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, they're grouped together as the "Slav speaking" minority. Some people though, try to label all of them as either one or the other. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 19:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with you. In this case though, these people identify as Greeks. In other words, they are Slavic speaking Greeks, not Macedonians or Bulgarians. Only a minority actually proclaim a non Greek national identity. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 19:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There are no Serbians or Russians in Greece (excluding the immigrants), only (Slav) Macedonian/Bulgarian speaking Greeks. This is more accurately explained at Macedonians (ethnic group). I don't really know much about it. The minorities are virtually extinct anyway, hardly anyone under the age of 60 can speak the language.  --Latinus (talk (el:)) 19:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There is an alleged Bulgarian identifying minority with its own political party and the whole nine yards. The problem is, we've never actually seen any people from this minority. They're just like the alleged Macedonian Slav minority (they have a political party too). They are referred to as the "ghost organizations", because these minorities only seem to exist on paper, but no one's ever seen any members of these minorities ;-) Please read my comment of 19:30 above. Only a minority proclaim a non Greek national identity. That is in theory of course :-) --Latinus (talk (el:)) 20:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: How can you be sure? Why would they exist on paper but not reality?Macedonian876 16:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apolitical anthem concern 

message: If you look at the text underneith the picture next to the so called "anthem" - it says "Vergina Sun - The symbol of Ancient Macedonia/Greece." Since when is the Vergina sun a symbol of "Ancient Greece?" Because as far as I know, it is unclear what the symbol represents, but it is clear that it represents one of two things - 1) The Ancient Macedonian kingdom 2) Or a religous symbol of Macedonia. Furthermore, "Greece" as a nation state did not exist during the time of Philip so how could the symbol represent "Greece?" You got it now, it didnt - it represented the "Macedonian kingdom" or was a symbol synonomus with the "Macedonian kingdom." The text under the pic should be deleted as well. Macedonian876 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Vergina Sun is a (unofficial/folkish) symbol of modern Greece (that is what Greece in the caption refers to - it does not say Ancient Greece anywhere). One used to be able to find it on the old Greek 100 drachma coin. Of course, now Greece is a member of the European Union and having that status has amongst others the ability to veto the ascension of new members (λέμε τώρα) and more importantly, has the euro as its currency, so the old coins are now gone. The implications of that (if any) are something I know very little about. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 18:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the article England has a flag and a controversial (disputed by some historians) coat of arms. Again, identical situations. Unofficial symbols (like everything in the UK - they have no written constitution: almost everything is unofficial). --Latinus (talk (el:)) 18:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, the "macedonian sun" and other variations of Sun symbols used in Byzantine Churches are not identical with the Vergina Sun. talk to +MATIA 18:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Different variations of the "rays" size and amounts exist, but, the symbol itself was always used to represent the "Macedonian Kingdom," "Macedonians," "Religon of Macedonia," etc. etc., nothing to "Greece" related. Macedonian876 19:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Well somehow it is a Greek symbol now. Hmm... --Latinus (talk (el:)) 19:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dont rush to believe so? The issue is disputed - thats it. You may be able to push Macedonians around because your state has more financial power right now, but dont think you are anywhere close to becoming Macedonian. Macedonian876 19:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't make personal attacks, dear, or I'll report you. Take your frustrations out on the Greek icon makers, coin makers etc. Perhaps even on the old lady (how romantic) who sew the Macedonian flag (which unlike the FYROM flag, actually does depict the Vergina Sun) which is used throughout the Greek region of Macedonia. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 19:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Macedonian876, go and read Herodotus about the Argead dynasty - it was their symbol. And Sun Symbols exists in many (if not all) of the civilizations - some of them even worshiped the sun (see Apollo) - but the similarities are because of the same prototype. Go ahead and believe that the Byzantine decorative symbol, was the one of the Argeads if you want to. talk to +MATIA 19:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow, what an argument! That must have convinced the whole world that you are right :-D --Latinus (talk (el:)) 18:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: See Straw man. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 18:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: See bluff. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 19:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversial Information

message: A sentence was added by User:Politis regarding "festivals for Macedonian Slavs from around the world." This would be a good thing by itself because it would promote understanding and friendship among people with different ethnic background. However, I doubt if this is article is the right place for such a statement. On the other hand I (and maybe others interested in Greek Macedonia) would like to know more about these festivals. Politis, it would be nice if you could provide a source for this (maybe some of the festivals have websites?) Andreas 01:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Festivals 

message: The demography chapter has become the main dish, it is huge. This entry is about a Greek province, its geography, industries, sights, climate, its relation to the centre (Athens) and a hint of history. I hope sometime in the future to cut it back to a reasonable size. Politis 18:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Demography indigestion

message: Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article.  Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:Republic of Macedonia#POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article|POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article]] 

message: Hi there,
I was reading this article and was not very pleased with the minorities part, particularly the Macedonian minority (yes I am talking about the Greeks view of Macedonian 'slavs' or 'slavophone'). My background is from this region of Macedonia; part of my family are from Florina (or Lerin as my parents and grandparents call it) and the other part from Salonika. I have lived in Australia all my life and hearing stories from my grandparents about their home villages, and only last year did I go to Northern Greece to see where my grandparents came from. I was mainly in Florina, staying with relatives. I learnt some basic Greek before I went but when I arrived there, I discovered that the language was not really necessary for me as the majority of the people in Florina spoke to me in Macedonian (that language in the Republic of Macedonia). Not only in Florina but in the villages and in Kastoria and Edessa (to a lesser extent). There are also many of us who have a background from this region of Greece, who live through out Australia. The experience made me realise how much of a large minority my people comprise of in this region of Greece and reading the article here has prompted me to write this (if you can call it) 'complaint'. I do not want to provoke or start an argument, just that I believe it is not very much fair on my people. So if something could be done to slightly alter the article so that it is more neutral, or more revealing of us Macedonians, then that would be very nice:)
It is always usefull to sign your contributions with your user name. Thanks. Also, I have been to the same parts of Greek Macedonia with Slavophone Greeks; when they spoke in Slavonic in shops, the answer came back in Greek (there was not negative reaction) and, unlike Athens, the people were polite. Also, though there are quite a few bi-lingual people (speaking both Slav Macedonian and Greek), a considerable number consider themselves Greeks and not members of a minority (admitedly, 2 out 3 of my Slavophone Greek friends considered themselves members of a minority but happily acknowledged that most people did not. The third person considered himself a Macedonian Greek; he disliked intensly the nationalism coming out of Skopje that imposed a particular style of 'Macedoniansm' on Slav Macedonian Greeks and, to a lesser extent, the insensitivity of Athens) Politis 12:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A change for minorities