Talk:Nova (eikaiwa)

message: There is definitely an issue of undue weight in the controversies section. Aside from the student charging issue, as it stands it looks like the union has taken over this page, with almost half of the page devoted to "controversies". Objectively, there are a very few incidents, none of which are particularly major issues to anyone outside (or even inside Nova), pushed by unions which appear to have very few members.
I wonder if editors would add detail of every staff dispute at a company such as Microsoft. Oh my, the Microsoft part-timers didn't get paid, let's put it on Wikipedia!
*Nova IPO issue - specifically is about the union not being mentioned in the prospectus = Union issue
*Drug testing - internal nova issue. Demonstration by 30 teachers out of 5000 is hardly notable except maybe to the union. Drug testing is routine, and certainly not notable, in many US companies.
*Anti-fraternisation - main source is union website. The single actual court case by Australian is just barely worthy of inclusion, but letters from the Osaka Bar Association are primary sources that are not mentioned by any other media and should be treated with caution. Is the OBA even notable?
*Renumeration - very minor internal issue. Main source is union website. Not notable.
*Shakai hoken - Government action is not specifically targeted at Nova. Nova makes no comment in the source. So why put it on this page?
The Union's own publications counts as self-published material, and its claims should only be used if there are other sources that have proper editorial oversight to back them up. Claims by the union are, however, allowed on the union's own page.
I am not saying to remove these issues from this page, or from Wikipedia, but to reduce their size and/or to place them in a place where they have better weight. As it stands now I'm not sure if this is the Nova page, or the union page. 
I propose instead that the union issues are dealt with by creating a few paragraphs such as "Nova has been involved in several union disputes regarding the Nova IPO, fraternisation with students, drug testing etc.." And to link these paragraphs to more detail information about the dispute on the union's page. Sparkzilla 16:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On further consideration I now think that, after a few edits to remove non-notable items and non-Nova-specific items that the remaining items are notable enough to stay in the article. Wherever possible it would be better to replace union-only sources with use the original newspaper or magazine sources. Sparkzilla 16:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think these sections should be somewhat restored. NOVA is notorious for much more industrial disputes than similar companies in the field. These controversies have a source. There is no reason for their disclusion from the article. Significant scandals of a company ripping off employees are important details to include in an article about that company.--ZayZayEM 05:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The only item removed was one about part-time employees not getting paid on time. the issue was minor, the only source was the union paper. I think it is important to condsider undue weight - what is important to the union is not necessarily that important to this article. Sparkzilla 10:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Undue weight in controversies section

message: I noticed that in the 'Courses' section there is no mention of kids curriculum (i.e. chibiki, kinder, etc) and I would suggest we consider adding it. Some of the details of the kids curriculum are difficult to verifiy as most of the information is available from advtisements, promotional, and internal company material. It seems to me that there is an official nova website (in Japanese) that provides more information about courses and services in a promotional format but I have lost the link. Kids trainig is mentioned on the nova corporate website but no specific details are available from that source. I intend to make a short edit of the Nova WP page to include some general information abou the kids classes and leave it tagged as *unsourced* but would first like to ask anyone here if they have sources about the kids classes.....—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.213.17 (talk • contribs) 
:Rather than use the company website as a source, it would be far better to use a secondary source such as newspaper or magazine articles that talk about the courses. This would avoid any impression of self-promotion/advertising. However, there should be some information about the courses offered, and I agree with you that the information, if kept short, can be sourced later. I added an unreferenced tag to the section so you don;t need to fact-tag your new text. 
:Also, please sign your comments with 4 tildes. ~~~~-- Sparkzilla talk! 00:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added some information in the courses section but would hope some others could check it for accuracy or provide citations for relevant sources. Perhaps "Ginganet" lesson could also be addressed in the courses section? 71.197.213.17 02:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be able to find some sources for class content here . Also please indent your replies on the talk page using the ":" character. -- Sparkzilla talk! 02:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I re-inserted the age range for the kids levels (otherwise there might be the assumption that chibiko,kinder, junior, and senior levels are based on the same criteria as adult level (that is to say English ability) which is not the case. I also re-inserted mention of the CD use in Chibiko as songs are used in the other kids classes but the use of a CD differs fundamentally from kinder, junior, senior.71.197.213.17 03:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just remember that this section may be removed at any time as unsourced promotion/advertising. Good luck finding sources. -- Sparkzilla talk! 03:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Referenced sources (#23 and #19) makes mention of the 'point/ticket system' that NOVA uses but don't include alot of details. Would like to see additional sources that expand the topic. As it is, I think there's just enough to put in something along the lines of 'students buy points, receiving an increasing discount for larger purchases but must use the points before they expire.' or something else like that. Would certainly be pertinent if this was unique to Nova. Statisticalregression 22:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Courses Section 

message: here's a quick list of possible sections for a rewrite:
*please add/delete/reorganize as you would like to see*
History
Services
Employment
Labor Relations
Competition
Criticisms
:I think it would be reasonable to combine "Instructors", "anti-fraternisation", "shakai hoken" into a new section called "Employment and labor relations". All text should be condensed to the minimum possible.
:It should also be possible to put the IPO information in the corporate outline at the top (again in a condensed form)
:The issue about the student charges is too long. It's too long as-is and should be summarized. People can go to the source if they want more detail. -- Sparkzilla talk! 01:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Strongly disagree - it's already quite condensed and removing information in favor of viewers traveling to the source is way off the target in my book. The links to the sources are primarily there for verifiability.Statisticalregression 03:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's nothing wrong with keeping sources, but the section should be condensed to make it easier to read, and to highlight the issue more succinctly. -- Sparkzilla talk! 04:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Strongly Disagree - There are two seperate events, which naturally makes it longer. As it stands, it's already succinct and does a very good job of explaining two events that are fairly complex. It reads quite smoothly as well. Keeping sources would not mitigate any editing that would reduce the description further. Statisticalregression 08:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For example, the last sentence seems to repeat what is said earlier in the paragraph. -- Sparkzilla talk! 08:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The last sentence isn't rewording anything and provides clarifying detail. Statisticalregression 09:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, perhaps "drugs" and "Lindsey Hawker" could both be moved into a "Related news"-type section because these issues are technically not Nova's responsibility. -- Drugs section included how it affected company so no change. -- Sparkzilla talk! 08:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Restructuring of the main article sections 

message: - 'Anti-fraternization policy' or 'anti-socialization policy' ? 
: There seems to be citations that describe it in one term or the other, If a majority of sources use the 'socialization' wording I would suggest changing it to reflect the prevailing use. I intend to research this in the near future - Statisticalregression 04:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional Topics/Items Discussion/Request for Sources

message: I restored this for two reasons. 1) the source I have "Japan - Change and Continuity" actually makes a very specific reference to Glova being a subsidary of Nova, and describes Glova as leading example of services in the Corporate Language training, translation, interpretation. 2) If Nova does not list Glova on it's website there's no reason to draw a conclusion that contradicts the source I got my information from, whether NOVA's omission was intentional, unintentionl, or if something has changed (like the Glova was bought out by another company) there's nothing I can find to indicate that Glova and NOVA are no longer connected.
The source I mentioned in '1)' is a book titled "Japan - Change and Continuity" authors, page, publisher, etc... are listed in the citation - is there something more I can provide?
::The business relationship is neither mentioned on the Nova site, nor on the Glova site. The source you have is not widely available, so given the conflict, you should give better sources that other editors can easily check. In the meantime, I have rewritten the item to be less promotional in nature. -- Sparkzilla talk! 01:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Who knows why they don't cross link to each other - They may want to try and keep their identities separate for business purposes but I'm not going to speculate. The source is pretty easy to access, just click on the ISBN number and then the google book link on the resulting page and you can actually look at the pages of the book online.Statisticalregression 02:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked the link  and think that condsdering there is no mention of the relationship on Nova/Glova sites, that the book reference is possibly a mistake. To make sure I would like to ask you to find another source. Thanks. -- Sparkzilla talk! 02:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering it's a book that was a collaboration of three authors, I feel comfortable that it's a pretty accurate. Of course things may have changed (or not), and if I find anything that supports on way or the other I will add make appropriate changes.Statisticalregression 02:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked for more sources and found this . More here  (please only use reliable sources (no blogs or discussion boards)) -- Sparkzilla talk! 02:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find! Now wouldn't it be funny if they were now no longer connected but the Nova website just hadn't been updated to reflect that!Statisticalregression 02:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Glova

message: I found the information supplied in sections on courses to be quite NPOV and informative. I would like to see it restored. the only rationale I can see for non-inclusion is that it is unreferenced. It was removed on the basis of being promotional, which it isn't (eg. it doesn't say NOVA has better prices or better service than anyone else, indeed it alludes NPOV to some flaws in pricing), I would like to see it restored then.--ZayZayEM 01:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The standard of inclusion in WP (as an encyclopedia) is notability and attribution -- not whether something is interesting to you ;) If Nova had some incredible new kind of course structure that was really notable and was reliably sourced then maybe it could be added. As it stands the courses are simply not notable enough for inclusion and their inclusion could be construed as being promotional in nature. -- Sparkzilla talk! 02:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, Sparkzilla you should be a little more accurate in your edit descriptions - if you wanted to remove it due to WP:VERIFY or something like that it would have made more sense. The 'courses' section was informative. ZayZayEM, why not restore it to your satisfaction and then we can craft it to make sure it's not promotional? Statisticalregression 03:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The edit summary said: "Removed non-notable, non-encyclopedic, promotional material. Put relevant material in intro." Once again, something being "informative" is not the threshold of inclusivity. Informative to who exactly? I don't think it is informative at all (a school has different courses, what's notable about that? see WP:NOTE) and I have to wonder whether this item is being added to be informative to potential teachers/employees or students of Nova, which equates to promotion of some kind. I also suspect that any sources to support this section would be promotional in nature. Let's try to stick to properly sourced, notable items please. -- Sparkzilla talk! 03:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  One problem Though WP:NOTE draws a distinction between articles and the contents. WP:NOTE says: "Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by other guidelines such as those on using reliable sources and on handling trivia. The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standard of the notability guidelines. So, in this case, 'informative' information doesn't violate WP:NOTE. Statisticalregression 04:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps I should have read that page properly :) Nonetheless, I oppose inclusion on the grounds that an English school lesson plan is not notable, has no sources and is promotional in nature. Let's try to stick to properly sourced, notable items please. -- Sparkzilla talk! 04:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, contents aren't required to be notable, and as far as promotional goes... I'm sure we can clean it up so it doesn't sound so. Eventually I may track down some sources in which case I'd restore the section.Statisticalregression 05:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promotional? 

message: came across this link / Supernova Racing that mentioned Nova Group started racing on the Japanese domestic circut in 1991, and went international in 1994 (and merged with a british racing team) looking at the logo both on the website and on the drivers helmet it would seem this at least sustantiates that Nova did have it's own racing team at one point. anyone have more information?Statisticalregression 03:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SuperNova Racing Team 

message: The hawker entry was recently removed - it was discussed before and seems like there was a bit of an agreement to include it based on sources/Nova's role in alerting the police, etc.... both the Blackman and Hawkers murders created alot of media attention.... I'm for inclusion  - what does everyone else think?Statisticalregression 04:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: note: I restored the material that was previously removed - I'm not militant about this or anything, so if anyone would like to comment in the future about if/how we should include the info please do soStatisticalregression 01:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am against inclusion of that section. At least in its current form it is not clear how Nova was involved in the murder investigation, etc. Surely we don't have sections on all murders in wikipedia articles of the victims' employers. As far as I understand she was not murdered for being a Nova teacher. The material might be more appropriate in the Eikaiwa school article. bamse (talk) 11:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Lindsy Hawker

message: This article needs to have more content than controversies.
It needs background history of the company and non-promotional content describing the services they provide.--ZayZayEM 10:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm starting to think the controversies *heading* should be removed. For example, a group of union members protesting after the IPO - it happened and was reported in the news - that's not a controversy.  Whether the protest had an impact or was meaningless.... controversial - but that's not addressed in text we have in the article (probably doesn't need to be anyways). Statisticalregression 23:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content 

message: Guys, as much as I think it's relevant, we really can't include the youtube video. in essence it's the same thing as linking to an external blog. it just doesn't pass the high bar for inclusion in the article. There's plenty of other areas that need attention, such as a new lead needs to be written.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Statisticalregression (talk • contribs). 
*image montage with humourous tone is completely irrelevent and unencyclopedic.--ZayZayEM 02:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: er.. misspoke...meant 'relevant' in terms of it's subject having the same overall subjext as the article, but yes...definately not relevant in terms of inclusion, I'll remove it again - so to the person that's been dropping it in there, pls don't continue to do it, it's just causing more work.Statisticalregression 04:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  youtube videos 

message: anyone really have a problem with them? most of the page is pretty static as it isStatisticalregression 09:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: alignments

message: I'd really like to read something about the methods that NOVA uses in class.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.234.83.102 (talk) 10:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's not alot that's documented, what I have is pretty limited. anyone have a good source for it?Statisticalregression 21:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt there's any published work about their lesson methods that's available to the public. Unless you were able to use their sales literature (or training manuals... heh.)--Alex Small 05:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you might be surprised, I have a couple that describe the methods used by Nova in general terms, but nothing in the way of specifics (such as the levels) although I do know of a book called "memoirs of a gaijin" that I believe was published by former Nova teacher, that might have some information. Statisticalregression 07:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll be happy to answer questions about Nova teaching methods.  I can easily cite the books, as well, although I don't know where you would find the original source without buying a copy from Nova.  The method is not a trade secret, it is detailed to potential students and even referenced in endless loop videos played outside of most Nova branches.  I personally think it is far superior to what I have seen used in Japanese public schools, although I can't compare it to other eikaiwa schools in Japan (as I have no knowledge.) [Edit] Found the tildes.  Just needed some light.  219.106.149.80 02:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Educational Approach

message: I believe it belongs in the history section up at the top because the current financial crisis is a part of the history of the company's health. HIS is part of the response to the METI restrictions, Sahashi issued a statement 2 days later that they would be looking for a capitol tie up, so in that regard, METI and the attempt to court HIS or any other company are related and would go in that section.Statisticalregression 04:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that NOVA's cash flow problems started well before the METI decision (as a result of their idiotic attempt to open 1000 schools in Japan), but the METI decision and the huge loss of face that occurred afterwards were in large part what precipitated NOVA's current insolvency (although I've heard some people say the company would be in dire straits now even if METI had done nothing, I think this is bullshit). IMO, it doesn't make sense to put this section in with the history of the company before the primary cause of their financial woes is explained.  To be honest, I think there's far too much info on the METI decision in the article at present, and it should be merged in as a part of a more robust company history section.  Bueller 007 14:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure, the METI restrictions are obviously causing financial problems. But financial problems or successes are outside the scope of the METI involvement. I guess I would be more in favor of moving material up and out of the METI section than just putting everything in there because it happened *after* the restrictions. The Government intervention section was created to combine information that was specific to those restrictions. Financial pressures and crisis (whether as a result or not) are a separate issue. Statisticalregression 22:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, I point to the HIS info in the METI section.  It's just as "inside the scope of METI involvement" as their insolvency.  How about we just compromise and make the financial stuff an entirely new section, independent of both the METI section and the history section? Bueller 007 07:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was lumping the HIS stuff in with the METI since sahashi said Nova would seek a business tie up almost immediacy after the restrictions were announced, seemed to tie the two very closely together, but yes, I am fine with creating a new section.Statisticalregression 09:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I hope I'm putting this in the right place...I rarely edit or post to wikipedia.  I would like to see the final sentence of the "financial crisis" changed, as it is blatantly false.  I'm not going to change it myself, as I'm an AT at Nova (lest you think I'm just a Nova hack, my school is closing now and we are all being relocated...which is a real pain.)  but the final sentence talks about Nova not having confidence to bring in new teachers.  This is simply not true.  There was a new OJT at Tennoji Eki today, and more are scheduled for the next month.  Whether this is a good idea or not, I do not dispute.  I would even say that I would advise new instructors to hold off in coming to Japan until the company stabilizes.  One way or the other.   But Nova is most certainly not being shy about new instructors. [Edit] found the tilde.  219.106.149.80 02:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The lead definitely needs to be expanded.--ZayZayEM 01:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: If anyone wants some sort of additional information, I'll be happy to give what I have.  However, I feel that a conflict of interest prevents me from directly editing the article.  Also, I would have a hard time citing a publication, as I would be talking about things I'm seeing first hand.  But as of now, all ATs and BTs have been paid.  All instructors have been paid.  All part-timers have been paid.  To my knowledge, no full-time staff have been paid, whether japanese or not.  their normal payday is the 27th, so they are 5 days late...1 day more than last month, 9 days less than ATs and BTs.  And OJT (on the job training, for new instructors) is on schedule for next week.  219.106.149.80 14:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's been 12-14 articles written about Nova in the last week or so, they talk about the recruiting situation, I just haven't had the time to go through them and add anything - the company is generating a tremendous (for me at least) amount of coverage in the media, almost something new every day. Statisticalregression 06:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm.  Well, the recruiting cycle is about 3 months between hiring and arriving at japan, so it is possible that Nova has stopped hiring while new instructors continue to arrive.  On the other hand, nova generally has two large intakes a year, one in september and one in january, with only a few in between, so a major slowdown now would be consistent with the last 3 years or so. 219.106.149.80 13:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Financial crisis placement

message: Nova applies for court protection from creditors; president missing, 4 execs resign
Not long until the lead becomes "Nova was..."--ZayZayEM 01:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Article resurrected - please expand appropriately.--ZayZayEM 05:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sahashi done a runner? 

message: The "was" is a little premature, they have not declared bankruptcy yet, in fact officially they are just temporaraly closed, you shoud wait until they actually declair bankruptcy. They are looking for a sponser if they find one, they could open agian. Unless the Government pays down some of the debts in a bail out, I think it is unlikely someone would be stupid enough to sponser them with their 45 billion+ in debt, tarnished name, lack of real physical assests, angry students, and angrier staff and teachers; but companies have made mistakes before. Aeon, Marui, and Rakuten are out of the running but I have heard rumors about Yahoo Japan, SMBC, and H.I.S. possibly being interested. Here is a story you may want to look at: http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20071027p2a00m0na007000c.html
 
Well Nova lives, barely. They are being "bought out" by a company that runs EC Eikawa (not to be confused with ECC), it is more like they picked the good parts out of the trash and leaving the rest for the goverment to sell off to help pay some of Nova debts. It is safe to say they are no longer a 'big three' company, they are going to start with opening up 30 of the old schools and plan to expand to 200, small apples compared to the 900 schools it once was. They are going to leave it up to the government to pay teachers and staff wages and Ex-Nova students will get a 75% discount. They have not said wether or not they are going to keep the name Nova. Newspaper stories in English should be comming soon.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.243.179.128 (talk) 14:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "was

message: I think the sorry story of Nova's demise should be moved out to its own page, and included here only in brief under Summary style guidelines.
What you think?
A comparative event could be Enron and Enron scandal.--ZayZayEM 23:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary stule and finacial crisis/collapse 

message: To help avoid hearsay and innuendo, here's a decent source of recent news stories regarding Nova: http://del.icio.us/parsleyboots/nova . Kingturtle 17:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for news 

message: The original news sources at both Asashi and Mainichi appear to have been removed.
This really plays sus on the reports that Sahashi was arrested on embezzlement charges. Perhaps he was arrested on something, or only questioned.
Phantoms that the articles did previously exist can be found at NAMBU for the Mainichi article ad verbatim  and Japan Economy News and Let's Japan for the original Asashi links.
However as the story has now been retracted by the official news sources I do not think it is appropriate to rely on second hand/third hand information from blogs and/or mirrors.--ZayZayEM (talk) 09:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sahashi June 2008 arrest 

message: At 5:10 pm GMT on 19 August 2008 I made an edit the main purpose of which was the removal of date links.  This was reverted at 9:46 pm by DAJF with the following edit summary.
Dates are linked so that they appear as per users' date format preferences
DAJF,
Are you aware that you reverted more than the delinking of dates?  My edit summary was as follows.
delink & standardise the format of dates; translate a couple of terms into English & remove repeated links
Before my edit the article was using a mishmash of international, US and ISO date formats.  The most glaring example of which was right up in the first paragraph.  Sentence three used international format and sentence four, US, separated by only a full stop and the word On.
My edit also changed
eikaiwa (private English teaching companies)
to
private English teaching companies
preserving the link to Eikaiwa but removing the link to English (language) (English in this sense being a plain English word, see WP:OVERLINK, besides you can get to the article via Eikaiwa anyway) and removing the link to Language education (this was a bit of a surprise link since "teaching companies" ≠ "language education").  Further down I'd replaced another eikaiwa with language school (if we'd wanted to keep the Language education link, this would've been a good place).
I had also translated shakai hoken to social insurance.  I must admit that I overlooked changing the section title.
Surely we should be writing in English.  Spicing the prose up with a few Japanese words only makes it harder to read for those of us who don't know the language—most English speakers.  This kind of this is completely unnecessary and should be avoided wherever possible.
There had been three links to Japan and three to Osaka right at the top of the article: one each in the lead paragraph and two each in the info box.  I'd removed the second of each of these from the infobox.
One edit not mentioed in my summary was the change from curly inverted commas, “system trouble”, to straight ones (as otherwise used throughout) and from single inverted commas, 'Nova Usagi', to double (per WP:PUNC).
Another which I didn't mention was the insertion of on into the plain text citations.  This was done for consistency with those which use .
So, DAJF, your reversion did more than simply reinstate the date linking ... look carefully though: the last date was unlinked to begin with.  Thus, one might suggest that a better approach could have been to go through and link the dates back up again.  Better still in my view, however, would have been to have left the dates unlinked.
If you have a look at WP:MOSNUM, you'll notice that the guideline no longer mandates date linking.  Indeed it may soon depreciate it.
So we link so that the dates appear according to users' preference and those readers who come here who are not logged in—most visitors to the site—what do they see?  They see a mess.  Autoformatting only works for those of us who are logged in and have a preference set.  I urge you take a look at this article without the autoformatting crutch either by to logging out or by adjusting your prefs to no preference.  I highly recommend the latter and once you're done looking at this article, why not leave your prefs off so that you'll be able to spot these inconsistencies that most of us editors have happily been hiding from ourselves?  This is the mess that the general public sees.  Autoformatting has hidden it from the very people who would otherwise fix it—us editors ... or are we writing only for ourselves?
Not only this but the autoformatting has been implimented in a very unconstructive fashion: via linking.  To get the autoformatting working articles must link to lists of trivia with generally little to no connexion to the topic at hand.  This overlinking dilutes those links of real worth whilst reducing the readability of Wikipedia articles.
For more on the evils of autoformatting please have a read of this essay by Waltham, who has a way with words that I don't believe I can match.  And please do consider reinstating my edit to this article ... or if you still believe in date linking, perhaps the debate on WT:MOSNUM might be of interest ... or even if you don't ...
Cheers. JIMp talk·cont 18:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So I have no interest or opinion about the date formats, but I would suggest that it would be a benefit to separate the types of changes you're making for two reasons: 1) if someone reverts your changes based on your edit summary and a quick scan of the diff, other changes you made that were not in your edit summary might get lost & 2) Sprinkling various changes throughout an entire article and leaving some out on the edit summary makes it far more cumbersome for concerned editors to see what has been changed.  As far as translation goes, it's helpful to have some key Japanese words in romanji. I don't have a problem with adding English translations after the Japanese but replacing the significant Japanese words with English dilutes the importance of the topic. Statisticalregression (talk) 01:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Sure, English first, Japanese second, or vise versa works fine. We're writing in English but let's remember that some of the subject in the article are Japanese, and many of the English language sources cited in the article use Japanese in the text, 'shakai hoken' for example. The article on Sepuku includes a translation following the Japanese word only once in the whole article. Statisticalregression (talk) 04:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates 

message: I am reverted again with reference to the injunction posted on WP:MOSNUM which reads as follows.
Temporary injunction regarding linking/delinking: Note that until the Date delinking arbitration case is decided or until otherwise directed by the Arbitration Committee, all editors are instructed not to engage in any program of mass linking or delinking of dates in existing articles, including but not limited to through the use of bots, scripts, tools, or otherwise. (Injunction in place since 11:52, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The injunction

message: Have NOVA rebranded, or ceased recruiting? http://www.teachinjapan.com appears to be an empty "under construction" webspace at the moment.--ZayZayEM (talk) 13:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of reasons for it...could either be that they forgot to pay their hosting provider for that domain, or they took it offline as the old website was dated and inaccurate for the new G.Comm Nova. or yes, could be no more recruiting although old Nova kept recruiting until the day it went bankrupt. Statisticalregression (talk) 00:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recruitment website down 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Nova (eikaiwa). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071104052432/http://www.asahi.com:80/business/update/0911/OSK200709110068.html to http://www.asahi.com/business/update/0911/OSK200709110068.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071010123111/http://mdn.mainichi.jp:80/national/news/20071006p2a00m0na034000c.html to http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20071006p2a00m0na034000c.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071023182348/http://mdn.mainichi.jp:80/national/news/20071023p2a00m0na003000c.html to http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20071023p2a00m0na003000c.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 01:11, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Nova (eikaiwa). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nova.ne.jp/english/corporation/05gaiyou/marketshare.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420857
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://osaka.yomiuri.co.jp/eco_news/20070614ke03.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nova.ne.jp/ir/pdf/02market_share.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706180093.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/life/update/0920/OSK200709200039.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420669
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420582
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071108/wl_asia_afp/japaneducationbankruptcycompanynova
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420690
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421212
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421036
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421159
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421397
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706160079.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.novaunion.com/zet/M7.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706180116.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.zakzak.co.jp/top/2007_02/t2007021624.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/special/070614/TKY200706160162.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070615TDY03002.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200704140086.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706230091.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706130423.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070614TDY01002.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070613p2a00m0na015000c.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.www.infoseek.co.jp/search/story/11mainichiF20070811p1500m020007/NOVA/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/special/070614/TKY200706270397.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070702/kyodo/d8q48ako0.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/410876
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/business/toyo/kabuto/TKZ200708270009.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070802-00000929-san-soci
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.sponichi.co.jp/society/flash/KFullFlash20070925059.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/life/update/1016/TKY200710160415.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/kansai/news/OSK200710220013.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200711080113.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070901-00000126-mailo-l13
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070903-00000215-yom-soci
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0903/TKY200709030320.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081018b1.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/kansai/news/OSK200810170008.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/national/news/20081017p2a00m0na010000c.html?inb=rs
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 10:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Nova (eikaiwa). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nova.ne.jp/english/corporation/05gaiyou/marketshare.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420857
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nova.ne.jp/english/corporation/05gaiyou/gaiyou.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://osaka.yomiuri.co.jp/eco_news/20070614ke03.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nova.ne.jp/ir/pdf/02market_share.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706180093.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/life/update/0920/OSK200709200039.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420669
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420582
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071108/wl_asia_afp/japaneducationbankruptcycompanynova
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/420690
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421212
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421036
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421159
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/421397
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.jmintelligence.co.jp/trends/trends_2004_winter.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706160079.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nova.ne.jp/english/corporation/02jigyo/jigyou_ekicha.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.novaunion.com/zet/M7.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706180116.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070727185208/http://www.novaunion.com/zet/M2.html to http://www.novaunion.com/zet/M2.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070727185208/http://www.novaunion.com/zet/M2.html to http://www.novaunion.com/zet/M2.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.zakzak.co.jp/top/2007_02/t2007021624.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/special/070614/TKY200706160162.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070615TDY03002.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200704140086.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706230091.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200706130423.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070614TDY01002.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070613p2a00m0na015000c.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/409644
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.www.infoseek.co.jp/search/story/11mainichiF20070811p1500m020007/NOVA/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/special/070614/TKY200706270397.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/20070616TDY01003.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070702/kyodo/d8q48ako0.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/410876
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070629TDY02007.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/business/toyo/kabuto/TKZ200708270009.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.sponichi.co.jp/society/flash/KFullFlash20070925059.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/life/update/1016/TKY200710160415.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/kansai/news/OSK200710220013.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200711080113.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0903/TKY200709030320.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081018b1.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.asahi.com/kansai/news/OSK200810170008.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/national/news/20081017p2a00m0na010000c.html?inb=rs
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091112104707/http://mdn.mainichi.jp:80/mdnnews/national/news/20091110p2a00m0na027000c.html to http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/national/news/20091110p2a00m0na027000c.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:56, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified