Talk:Mbira

message: Got a couple of questions.  First, the title of this article is pretty hard to justify.  Jali Foday Musa Suso said (in a concert I attended long ago) that these instruments are all over Africa, and everywhere a different name.  But any place English is spoken, the term "thumb piano" will be recognized, while if you call it by a name you learned in a different area you'll draw a blank.
Second, the text seems to be rather specific about a particular variant which does not match the picture -- it says 22 to 28 strips of metal while the image shoew twelve.  ;Bear 07:00, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
*Agreed, distortion in modern electric (western) music is similarSantaduck 19:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I too think that the article should be titled "thumb piano", as that is the most universal term for the instrument in English speaking areas.  Strobilus 22:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions

message: To whoever reads this (I don't know how likely that is for now...) But anyways, I think its important to keep the focus of this page on the concept of the Mbira in general.  There are Mbira from all ofer Africa and several similar instruments from other places in the world.  So, maybe there should be a seperate page specifically for Zimbabwean Mbira, and maybe eventually (if that article gets too big) an article for each specific type: Mbira Dzavadzimu, Nyunga Nyunga, etc.  Also there should be information about the different tunings, etc. Alex Weeks 15:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, does anyone have a good image of several different types of Mbira, to put at the top of the page?  I don't have an Mbira Nyunga Nyunga, and there are Mbira from different parts of Africa as well.  Perhaps just a bunch of different varieties all in one picture. Alex Weeks 17:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text: AIf someone has any more interesting pictures to show the mbira dzavadzimu, how to hold it, or in a deze or other stuff, feel free to upload them.  The one that are currently ther (that I took) work but are kind of boring. Alex Weeks 19:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections 

message: Some ideas for expansions:
* Add Dumisani "Dumi" Maraire and Ephat Mujuru as some of the key exporters of Zimbabwean mbira music to the west.  Also Maraire to Nyunga Nyunga section, and he may merit his own entry.
* Add other mbira types.  Matepe / Sanza / and the pentatonic types from say the Congo as popularized by Konono No. 1 in their 2004/5 release "Congotronics".
* References: Add: Journal of African Music, and the recordings printed commercially by Hugh Tracey and Paul Berliner.  Hugh Tracey's LP includes many reed instruments other than the mbira dza dzavadzimu, and he has classified them as pentatonic and hexatonic varieities.
* Westerners: Add western ethnomusicologists Paul Berliner, Hugh Tracey, and his son Andrew Tracey.  Also add Erica Azim and her mbira.org website, as the westerner perhaps best known for immersing herself in the art of mbira dza dza vadzimu.
* Current musicians: Name some well-known mbira musicians. Some Zimbabwean names: Cosmas, Beauler, Kwenda, Chiweshe, but should also list non-Zimbabweans of other varieties of mbira.  Also mbira-inspired musicians such as Thomas Mapfumo and Oliver Mutukudzi.
* Mbira Dza Dzavadzimu: Note more information on typical musical structure, such as 12/8 "four-phrase" structure, and the 1-beat-apart interlocking of kushaura & kutsinhira, with the possibility for polyrhythms (4/4 locked with 3/4 within 12/8), which is different than many other african musical forms.  Also more information on singing.  Hosho is not explained as maranka gourd with hota (traditional) or other seeds of convenience (popcorn).
* Historical nature of music: for example, use in ancestor ceremonies drives the preservation of ancient forms of the traditional songs (name a list of songs for known types of reed instruments).  Archaeological evidence should be cited (e.g. great zimbabwe).
* Mbira Dza Dzavadzimu in the West: Note the "hot spots" of activity (Colorado and the NorthWest and others).  Also briefly note the evolution of marimba music based on zimbabwean mbira (both nyunga nyunga and dza dzavadzimu).  Also note zimfest and noteworth western mbira/marimba bands.
* Noteworthy makers of mbira, past and present, both African and even Western. Also info on tuning and manufacturing materials and techniques.
* Overall, the entry is heavily skewed toward Zimbabwean mbira dzadzavadzimu and nyunga nyunga (as these are perhaps the most dispersed into the west, and the former is among the most complex), but it would be nice to expand to cover other reed instruments.
Santaduck 00:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: * Began to make some corrections in tuning. For example:
** Gandanga is not a minor tuning.  Listen to most gandanga songs, they will sound major.  However if you play a nyamaropa 'major' song, it may sound like a minor on gandanga.
** Major vs. Minor doesn't explain it all-- for example Taireva is mixolydian, not a straight major mode.  Other modes also describe playing, for example, Marenje (gandanga) on a nyamaropa.
** Relative minor: previous text read that switching instruments might make the song jump to a relative minor, which is false.  Relative minor is a very specific thing.  Nhemamusasa might be 'major' on one nyamaropa, and sound minor on one gandanga, but although it's minor, that doesn't make the latter minor the exact relative major of the first instrument-- it's simply another minor key, not the relative minor of that major. Removed this text relating to relative minor
** Nonstandard tunings: There has been some standardization in the west, although if you listen to tunings, even the relative pitches are not really comparable to the western concept (tetrachords, etc.). Berliner noted frequencies in his book, as do other sources.  Calling Nyamaropa songs "major" requires a huge qualification, and this article does not yet have an accurate explanation.
Santaduck 19:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tuning

message: The article quotes several names of different types of lamellophones. These are not Mbiras. There should be a general article for "lamellophone". Mbira is not the genaral term for this class of instrument but a special type from Zimbabwe. Hugh Tracy once suggested the term "Mbira" as a general term, but nowadays ethnomusicologists use the neutral "lamellophone" as the general term.
===Erroneous cross-reference re-direct from mbila.===
Mbila is a xylophone-like instrument, of Mozambique. Dogru144 12:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The mbira is a thumb piano, originating in Zimbabwe. It is played with the thumbs.
The mbila is a xylophone-like instrument, indigenous to the Chopi people of Inhambe Province, Mozambique. It is played with mallets.  See Mbila (musical instrument).
An editor has erroneously redirected mbila to mbira. Dogru144 14:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition

message: Mbila is a xylophone-like instrument, of Mozambique. Dogru144 12:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The mbira is a thumb piano, originating in Zimbabwe. It is played with the thumbs.
The mbila is a xylophone-like instrument, indigenous to the Chopi people of Inhambe Province, Mozambique. It is played with mallets.  See Mbila (musical instrument).
An editor has erroneously redirected mbila to mbira. Dogru144 14:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Erroneous cross-reference re-direct from ''mbila.''

message: * There is a reference to "Mhondoro or Great Spirit Mediums, Chaminuka" as being the originator of the Mbira, several thousand years ago.  Is this a verifiable occurrence, or a belief?  If it is a belief, it should be stated as such. I have not head of this before reading it here.  Alex Weeks 00:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mhondoro/Chaminuka 

message: *For discussion on merging Mbira with Marímbula, see the discussion on the Marímbula talk page here. --Santaduck 22:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: This article is only about the instrument in Zimbabwe, and there is no general article about this African musical instrument. To adress the bias I have starte a stub at thumb piano (which previously redirected here). --Ezeu (talk) 21:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article at [[thumb piano]] 

message: There used to be paragraph in here about how the used this piano in schools. That was neat information, and we do it in my school, so it was nice to know that others do too.
WHERED THAT GO??
71.62.108.227 (talk) 00:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  whered it go? 

message: This proposed merge has been kicking about for a few years, and Thumb piano was pretty weak, so I decided to WP:BEBOLD and just merge them finally. We can debate what the primary article name should be, but I think that having two separate articles was not in the interest of the readership.
I've moved over content from the article page and talk page, removed some redundancies between the two, and smoothed out the sectioning slightly'. There's still cleanup to be done, particularly in the "Tunings" section which is kinda cluttered, and the lede needs refining.
In whatever case, now at least it's all literally "on one page" and we can get it refined in one spot, and (partially) avoid confusing readers about terminology. MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm really not sure that this was a good idea. I mean, just look at the Hugh Tracey Kalimbas and the Zimbabwean Mbiras - they are very different instruments, with different geographical and cultural distributions. Yet they each have stable forms. I think it might have been far better to have a general "lamellaphone" article, with sub-articles about the varieties. Also, whatever happened to the note diagram of the Hugh Tracey Kalimba layout that used to be in the thumb piano article? Esn (talk) 07:17, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, never mind, I see it. I guess the issue here is that there are so many varieties, that it can be hard to know what to keep and what to separate from a "general" article... Esn (talk) 07:22, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Completed merge 

message: §Rhythm says
: Mbira music, like much of the sub-Saharan African music traditions is based on cross-rhythm. The following example is from the kushaura part of the traditional mbira piece "Nhema Musasa." ... Thnidu (talk) 01:06, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The audio example was deleted on 25 September 2015 in edit with the comment "It was deleted on Commons by Natuur12 (Per Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Mbira cross-rhythm.jpg).)". The text obviously needs to be amended, but how? Delete completely?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  example is missing 

message: This statement:  "While kalimba initially meant the Hugh Tracey product, the name is now generic", is incorrect.  Hugh Tracey appropriated the Kenyan term for this category of instruments for his own instrument, but the term initially referred to lamellae instruments similar to the mbira in Kenya.  In the west -- North America and Europe, especially, "kalimba" became a generic after the Hugh Tracey instrument became popular, but in recent years preference has begun to shift back to "Mbira".  
See Sybil Marcuse:  "Musical Instruments:  A Comprehensive Dictionary", among others.   This paragraph is flagged "original research?", but I doubt there is any research behind the claim; it's just wrong.
I think a section, probably near the top of the article, discussing some alternate names for the instrument, with their region of origin/preference, could help dispel some of this confusion.  There are a plethora of African lamellae instruments, with a plethora of names, and even very similar instruments have different names in different dialects.  The "mbira", for example, is variously known as "mbira" (Zimbabwe); "ikembe" (Rwanda); likimbe (Congo); kalimba (Kenya); "marimbula" (Caribbean); sanza (Africa since mid 1960s); as well as "sansa"; "zanza"; "sansula"; "mbila"; "huru"; "nhare"; "matepe"; "karimbao"; "karimba"; "okeme"; "ubo", and a host of others, in addition to "thumb piano" in North America.
Regarding some earlier comments suggesting that the term "thumb piano" is somehow derogatory, a term applied by ignorant westerners to an instrument they did not understand:  There may or may not have been some ignorance involved, but unless some good references can be provided, I seriously doubt the name was any deliberate attempt at oppression by colonial powers.  Indeed, I have heard many black musicians, including some highly committed to studying and preserving African cultural traditions, refer to variations of this instrument as "thumb pianos".  It is simply a nickname for the instrument, such as many folk and jazz musicians in Europe and the Americas are wont to apply to various instruments e.g.:  "horn" for any wind instrument (even though saxophones or flutes are clearly not horns); "axe" for a guitar; "skins" for drums; "dog house" for upright bass; etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added 17 June 2019 (UTC) 
:I largely agree with this sentiment. I would add that while African lamellophones are similar in that they use metal tines to produce sound, this doesn't mean all these instruments are 'the same instrument'. The banjo is very similar to the balalaika, which is very similar to the guitar, which is very similar to the lute, which is very similar to the oud. All these instruments operate in the same basic way, yet they're regarded as 'different instruments', because of their slight variations in design. African lamellophones vary in design for musical and cultural reasons, and so they can be regarded as different instruments, just as guitar-like instruments are. --KalimbaEnjoyer (talk) 11:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside Africa 

message: Perhaps I missed it, but I don't seem to find any reference in the article to the rattles attached to most African instruments.  These produce a buzzing or rattling sound as the instrument is played, which I've heard some African players refer to as "the tears of the instrument".  While a lot of Western instruments derived from the Hugh Tracey version lack these, virtually all African forms have them.  I have even known African musicians to put bottlecaps inside Hugh Tracey instruments to simulate the "tears", without which, in their opinion, the instrument is "dead".  This seems like an important omission, since there seems to be considerable philosophy behind it.
Another thing that probably should be mentioned is that the Hugh Tracey form of the instrument, and many of its derivatives, have articulation holes on the back of the instrument, that are used to impart a vibrato or "wah-wah" like effect to the sound as they are opened and closed.
Both of these items need to be covered.  Leaving them out is akin to describing the piano without mentioning the pedals, or talking about guitars and never mentioning guitar picks.
74.95.43.253 (talk) 02:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Tears 

message: Hi everyone. I notice that the search terms kalimba and thumb piano redirect to this article, and that there is no dedicated article for African lamellophones. It gives the impression, as is indeed stated in the article, that the kalimba is really a Western version of the mbira, but I think this way of phrasing it does a disservice to the dozens of other African lamellophones from all over Africa, and is probably not as accurate a statement as it could be. I appreciate the need to make clear that this type of instrument is an African invention, but to say that the kalimba is just an mbira sort of misdirects the reader into thinking the mbira is the most important of these instruments, or that Hugh Tracey changed the mbira to make a version he thought was better, with a hollow soundboard and no buzzers. 
In fact, the kalimba is a lot more similar to, or almost a direct descendant from the Tanzanian sanza, as examplified by the hollow soundboard, the shape and layout of the tines, and the fact those tines are raised up from the board, where with the mbira the board is carved out to attach the tines into it. I believe the sanza also does not have buzzers, unlike the mbira. I'd also like to direct you to this interview with Tracey on YouTube where he demonstrates some of the many different types of African lamellophones, and where he states that he made "one" himself, referring to the many different African lamellophones he just showed, and not just the mbira. I think it may be good to have a dedicated article for African lamellophones, and have the part about Hugh Tracey's kalimba being derrived from them moved to that new article. KalimbaEnjoyer (talk) 09:42, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should kalimba and thumb piano redirect here?