Talk:Boris Berezovsky (businessman)

message: Given the WP:ANI discussion.  However, note that any future edit-warring on a BLP will undoubtedly mean the restoration of the full protection. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotected

message: Edit made: Removed unsourced libel accusing Klebnikov of anti-semitism. If citable, please re-add with proper citations. Otherwise, libel against an american hero whom many regarded as one of Russia's leading free speech proponents.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.165.169.43 (talk) 03:29, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edits 

message: I have restored a reference and a quote in another reference removed by user Off2riorob. I cannot see a point in removing references form existing text. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted your change. As I said in the edit summary, this is way too much for a minor point in the article. Whether Berezovsky's libel case is an example of libel tourism, an often-cited example, a leading example, or whatever, the facts are in the article as to what Berezovsky did and the disposition of the case. The rest is remarkably tangential. We don't need a treatise on libel tourism.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a discussion of the content of the article, as your comment would suggest, but about the presentation of the sources. However, if multiple reliable sources discuss libel tourism in the context of Berezovsky, then that section in this article may need expanding. At least needs protection from casual drive-by deletion. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Please see my comment above (now we have this in two places, yay). I remove sourced info from articles all the time if it's not sufficiently relevant to be included in the article, as here.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is very important. Berezovsky v Michaels was a landmark case in the use of libel tourism/terrorism, and is thoroughly studied. Refer to this and . It is highly relevant that the House of Lords gave him permission to sue in the UK courts, and it is highly relevant that he took advantage of libel laws in the UK, which means that the defendant is in an almost unwinnable position. This use of libel tourism has been used by many others since Berezovsky v Michaels, hence the relevance of the use of libel tourism, and hence the relevance it raised jurisdictional matters, and hence the relevance of every thing else I wrote. If you have doubts, take it to WP:RSN, but you don't remove anything because WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Russavia Let's dialogue 19:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps if as you assert it is "very important" and a landmark issue then it should have its own article away from this BLP. Off2riorob (talk) 19:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Rob. Even assuming it's an important issue for purposes of UK law, it is a side show for Berezovsky's life, which is what the article is about.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is pertinent. Why did he not choose to sue in the US courts? Where Forbes is published? That is another point that has been raised to Berezovsky's use of libel tourism. In fact, a Guardian article which is already in use in the article as a source, made reference to his use of libel tourism in relation to another libel lawsuit. The Guardian obviously saw it important enough to mention ten years after the fact. And don't use the WP:BLP line; what is stated in the article is FACT, not an accusation. I will be reinserting it, and if you have an issue with it, take it to the WP:BLPN or WP:RSN noticeboards. --Russavia Let's dialogue 19:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't be stubborn. The consensus is against inclusion.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:32, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What consensus? LOLOLOLOLOLOL. You wanted more sources, as per this, and I provided more sources, and gave you links above to Google, showing how relevant this is, and all of a sudden you want it removed. LOLOL. The mere fact that there are more sources indicates that this is obviously a very important part of the libel law suit against Forbes. You said it yourself. And I quote: "When you can support the article with cites, then you can "reinstate" it." You were saying? LOLOLOL. I'm not blind as to what is going on here, and none of you WP:OWN the article, neither do I, but you don't remove information just coz you don't like what it says. Which by the way was WP:NPOV. And don't think I am going to be bogged down in endless discussion. --Russavia Let's dialogue 19:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text: If it belongs anywhere, it belongs in the libel tourism article, and for all the assertions of importance of the Berezovsky case, it's not mentioned there.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your addition of it there is uncontested and in fact, supported as a more correct location. Off2riorob (talk) 20:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Russavia, you are misinterpreting what I said. I said it doesn't belong in the Berezovsky article period. I also said that if it belongs anywhere, it belongs in the libel tourism article. I then noted in passing that even though you claim the case is an important example of libel tourism, it wasn't in the libel tourism article. I did not say that by putting it in the libel tourism article, that means it belongs in the Berezovsky article.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edit summary here says otherwise. The deletion of multiple scholarly legal facts seems more like a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Russavia Let's dialogue 21:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text: To long didn't  read - you appear to be in the wrong location, I suggest you go assert the high notability (the primary case)  in th parent article  and that will allow us to give correct weight in this BLP. Off2riorob (talk) 23:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if you didn't read you can't make any type of judgement call can you? There is a difference between rightfully protecting a BLP article from poorly or unsourced negative material, and whitewashing an article of information which is meticulously sourced to highest possible reliable sources. Unfortunately, the latter is occurring here. Russavia Let's dialogue 23:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever - today, you have been distributive and battle fielding , attempting to get anyone that you perceive as your opponent blocked , and I don't like that. Tomorrow , I will look at your desired additions with fresh eyes, I suggest you do the same. Off2riorob (talk) 23:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text: ABC source - interesting, but just placing it here for my own reference for extra information to add into article. Russavia Let's dialogue 03:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libel tourism 

message: This was removed from the article.
Why? In 2000 the House of Lords did give him permission to sue in UK courts for libel. And it is the leading example of libel tourism/terrorism. It has even been tabled in the house of lords itself. refer to this. Numerous scholarly legal sources state that jurisdictional issues arose from this approval. And it is the leading case of libel tourism/terrorism. All sources have been provided, I can add another hundred if you all like, which states it is the leading case of libel tourism. 
I have sourced and verified the information. The onus is on editors to do this, otherwise it can be removed from the article. You don't remove sourced information from the article. Russavia Let's dialogue 19:11, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see my comment above (now we have this in two places, yay). I remove sourced info from articles all the time if it's not sufficiently relevant to be included in the article, as here.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is very important. Berezovsky v Michaels was a landmark case in the use of libel tourism/terrorism, and is thoroughly studied. Refer to this and . It is highly relevant that the House of Lords gave him permission to sue in the UK courts, and it is highly relevant that he took advantage of libel laws in the UK, which means that the defendant is in an almost unwinnable position. This use of libel tourism has been used by many others since Berezovsky v Michaels, hence the relevance of the use of libel tourism, and hence the relevance it raised jurisdictional matters, and hence the relevance of every thing else I wrote. If you have doubts, take it to WP:RSN, but you don't remove anything because WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Russavia Let's dialogue 19:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps if as you assert it is "very important" and a landmark issue then it should have its own article away from this BLP. Off2riorob (talk) 19:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Rob. Even assuming it's an important issue for purposes of UK law, it is a side show for Berezovsky's life, which is what the article is about.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is pertinent. Why did he not choose to sue in the US courts? Where Forbes is published? That is another point that has been raised to Berezovsky's use of libel tourism. In fact, a Guardian article which is already in use in the article as a source, made reference to his use of libel tourism in relation to another libel lawsuit. The Guardian obviously saw it important enough to mention ten years after the fact. And don't use the WP:BLP line; what is stated in the article is FACT, not an accusation. I will be reinserting it, and if you have an issue with it, take it to the WP:BLPN or WP:RSN noticeboards. --Russavia Let's dialogue 19:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't be stubborn. The consensus is against inclusion.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:32, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What consensus? LOLOLOLOLOLOL. You wanted more sources, as per this, and I provided more sources, and gave you links above to Google, showing how relevant this is, and all of a sudden you want it removed. LOLOL. The mere fact that there are more sources indicates that this is obviously a very important part of the libel law suit against Forbes. You said it yourself. And I quote: "When you can support the article with cites, then you can "reinstate" it." You were saying? LOLOLOL. I'm not blind as to what is going on here, and none of you WP:OWN the article, neither do I, but you don't remove information just coz you don't like what it says. Which by the way was WP:NPOV. And don't think I am going to be bogged down in endless discussion. --Russavia Let's dialogue 19:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text: If it belongs anywhere, it belongs in the libel tourism article, and for all the assertions of importance of the Berezovsky case, it's not mentioned there.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your addition of it there is uncontested and in fact, supported as a more correct location. Off2riorob (talk) 20:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Russavia, you are misinterpreting what I said. I said it doesn't belong in the Berezovsky article period. I also said that if it belongs anywhere, it belongs in the libel tourism article. I then noted in passing that even though you claim the case is an important example of libel tourism, it wasn't in the libel tourism article. I did not say that by putting it in the libel tourism article, that means it belongs in the Berezovsky article.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edit summary here says otherwise. The deletion of multiple scholarly legal facts seems more like a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Russavia Let's dialogue 21:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of libel tourism 

message: Here's a bunch of sources which can give us information on Berezovsky and libel tourism
* The Financial Times - quote: "Sweet & Maxwell said the three cases that could be classed as libel tourism involved the Russian oligarch Boris Berezovsky and a Russian television broadcast, the Chelsea football club owner Roman Abramovich and an Italian newspaper, and the investment company LonZim and a banker it sued for slander and libel."
* Associate Professor in Law at Abilene Christian University - "In 1997 (Berezovsky) helped pave the way for wealthy foreigners to attack critical publication through the London courts when he successfully sued the American magazine Forbes, despite its slim circulation in Britain."
* The Guardian - Berezovsky is no stranger to London's law courts. In 1997 he sued the US magazine Forbes after it printed an article that asked: "Is he the Godfather of the Kremlin?" He won despite only 2,000 copies of the 785,000 sold worldwide having been purchased in the UK. That case is often cited as an example of libel tourism – foreigners taking advantage of England's libel laws, which tend to favour the claimant by putting the burden of proof on the defendant.
* The Independent - In another case, the House of Lords allowed Russians Boris Berezovsky and Georgi Glouchkov to sue the American magazine Forbes over an article about their business activities in Russia, which contained accusations of gangsterism and corruption. Around 780,000 copies of the magazine were sold in the United States, while only around 6,000 copies were accessed in print or via the internet in the UK. Forbes did not prove the allegations were true and settled the case.
* BBC - The UK's highest court, the House of Lords, has given Russian businessman Boris Berezovsky leave to bring a libel action against Forbes Magazine. Legal experts say the ruling could make England the world's top destination for libel litigation.
* Freedom House - Libel tourism is not a new phenomenon, but it is gaining traction and putting greater pressure on the free exchange of ideas. In the United Kingdom, the burden of proof lies with the defendant in such cases. This factor, combined with the UK’s image as a paragon of high jurisprudential standards, makes the country an attractive venue for plaintiffs seeking to silence critics. Those who sue successfully can obtain the validation and imprimatur of the UK courts, which carry considerable weight in public relations. The experience of Forbes magazine highlights the challenges presented by UK libel law. In 1996, Boris Berezovsky, one of Russia’s billionaire “oligarchs,” filed a claim against the magazine for an article entitled “Godfather of the Kremlin.” Berezovsky successfully sued Forbes in London, even though it is based in New York and sold only a modest number of copies in the UK.
* Bristows (law firm) - read it yourselves as cut and paste not work on this one
* Jewish centre for Public Affairs - Boris Berezovsky (a Russian) succeeded in persuading the House of Lords of his right to sue Forbes (an American magazine) 28  and Rinat Akhmetov (a Ukrainian) successfully sued Kyiv Post and  Obozrevatel (two Ukrainian internet journals). 29  As the suits have multiplied, media accounts have acknowledged the importance of England as the libel plaintiff’s destination of choice.
* The New York Times - The exiled Russian oligarch Boris Berezovsky has used England's libel laws to take on a range of critics, including Forbes magazine. Berezovsky was party to the watershed suit in the late 1990s against Forbes that, among other things, signaled the critical role digital media would come to play in the libel tourism game. At the time, the House of Lords, Britain's highest court, cited Forbes' Internet readership as a crucial part of its argument on jurisdiction.
* Bloomberg - general libel tourism article
* Testimony before the US Senate - On the heels of Professor Lipstadt’s trial came the case that opened a new phase in the transatlantic free speech rift – lawsuits brought in England by plaintiffs who are not U.K. residents but who sue in that jurisdiction to exploit its plaintiff-friendly libel laws.  The practice earned a neat nickname – “libel tourism.”  In 1997, Russian tycoon Boris Berezovsky filed suit against Forbes magazine in London over an article from the December 1996 issue of the magazine titled “Godfather of the Kremlin?”
8  The piece, written by Russian-American journalist Paul Klebnikov, portrayed Berezovsky as a man who, as Forbes pointed out in a related editorial, was followed by “a trail of corpses, uncollectible debts and competitors terrified for their lives.”9   Forbes argued that it made no sense to litigate a case involving a Russian plaintiff and a New York magazine in England, where a tiny fraction of the publication’s readers were located and which was not a focal point of the reporting.  But the English courts would not loosen their grips on the suit, and Forbes eventually retracted the claims and settled the case rather than face trial. 10  Klebnikov was murdered on a Moscow street in 2004.
Those were found on the first 4 pages of a Google web search 
Google Book searches and Google Scholar searches return even more results. And even moreso which back up what was written in the article, that Berezovsky v Michael is the leading example of libel tourism, so much so that Berezovsky has used it on several occasions. 
What is the problem with having this in the article? Russavia Let's dialogue 23:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: To long didn't  read - you appear to be in the wrong location, I suggest you go assert the high notability (the primary case)  in th parent article  and that will allow us to give correct weight in this BLP. Off2riorob (talk) 23:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if you didn't read you can't make any type of judgement call can you? There is a difference between rightfully protecting a BLP article from poorly or unsourced negative material, and whitewashing an article of information which is meticulously sourced to highest possible reliable sources. Unfortunately, the latter is occurring here. Russavia Let's dialogue 23:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever - today, you have been distributive and battle fielding , attempting to get anyone that you perceive as your opponent blocked , and I don't like that. Tomorrow , I will look at your desired additions with fresh eyes, I suggest you do the same. Off2riorob (talk) 23:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text: ABC source - interesting, but just placing it here for my own reference for extra information to add into article. Russavia Let's dialogue 03:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Heap of sources

message: Should the UK House of Lords permitting Berezovsky to sue for libel in UK courts, and the wide subsequent scholarly legal opinion that it create jurisdictional issues and was a leading example of libel tourism be included in the article? Russavia Let's dialogue 20:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs, as a minimum , attribution, imo. Off2riorob (talk) 19:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My view is that this is not a BLP issue. Rather, it is a question of whether the material belongs in this article. I think we have to distinguish what may be notable to a legal doctrine as opposed to what is notable to a person. In this instance, even if the Berezovsky case became notable because of the legal issues raised, that doesn't mean it is worth mentioning in the Berezovsky article. (DGG, I think you misspoke in your comment ("I can see no possible basis for including it") - I think you meant the opposite.)--Bbb23 (talk) 19:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC on libel case

message: From the same libel section, we have:
This is largely original research. Who has compared Berezovsky with Trotsky? It's not state-controlled media. It is Andrei Piontkovsky, another anti-Kremlin activist who has come up with that analogy on his own. And who has compared him with Goldstein? Again, it's not any so-called state controlled media, but again, Piontkovsky himself has invented that analogy. This sentence as it is written is entirely original research at most, and entirely misleading at least. Now to the second part, I must admit I almost pissed my pants laughing at it. "incarnation of evil"? I mean honestly, who's responsible for this? 30 Rock might be looking for some writers, whoever you are, get in touch with them. Where exactly in this article does such "incarnation of evil" occur? This POV-ridden paragraph needs to be removed from the article almost in its entirety. --Russavia Let's dialogue 03:47, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  False descriptions of Berezovsky in "Russian media" and incarnation of evil? PSML 

message: In the section Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)#Libel_suits_in_UK can an admin please remove:
This is a violation of WP:BLP, in particular WP:BLPSTYLE, in that it is a complete overstatement and the source does not mention at all anything like "incarnation of evil"; it has been inserted into the article by User:Kolokol1 who has a conflict of interest in the article, in that he is admittedly connected with the subject. The assertion also that he is "the most hated man" in Russia, is somewhat relative in that it was a passing comment by Chubais. Whether the subject of the article agrees with the assertion or not, is irrelevant, it is puffery in the extreme. At the very least, the "that of an incarnation of evil" needs to be removed as a blatant BLP violation. It should not be in the article at all without a solid, reliable source. --Russavia Let's dialogue 23:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree with Russavia's reasoning, but I agree with his conclusion. I think the sentence should be removed entirely. It's not that it's puffery or that it doesn't conform to the source so much as it's one of those semi-topical sentences that both announces the four libel suits and injects opinion into the article at the same time. The sentence is gratuitous. The section should just describe the libel suits.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sentence removed. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLP violation 

message: The article as it stands at the moment completely glosses over the embezzlement of millions of dollars from Aeroflot by Andava - a company of which Berezovsky and Glushkov were the major shareholders (around 35% each). It was the embezzlement of these funds by shady offshore entities that lead to charges being laid against the two. A lot of this information, as well as rulings in Switzerland against Berezovsky-related entities, has been removed from the article. This is complete whitewashing of the article, given that it is the embezzlement by companies in which Berezovsky was a major shareholder that led to Berezovsky refusing to return to Russia. This is a great article which gives great insight into the embezzlement and how it all operated.
That quote gives great insight into how the oligarchs earned the "robber baron" monicker, and says much about how the embezzlement occurred.
The question is, why was this information removed from the article, given that the embezzlement of Aeroflot is core to Berezovsky's biography. This information will be added back into the article once unlocked.
And before anyone argues that it belongs in the Aeroflot article, as an "expert" in that area, Berezovsky/Andava/embezzlement is but a byline in the history of the company, yet it is core to Berezovsky's biography. --Russavia Let's dialogue 02:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does not use what editors "know" but what reliable sources state. WP:BLP requires that the claims be about the person - not just about a company of which he was a shareholder. If the source states that the individual was convicted of embezzlement, then that refers to the person. Is this reasonably clear? Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:12, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Embezzlement and whitewashing of this article 

message: I think everyone agrees that Berezovsky is a controversial figure. There are many contradictory claims, counterclaims, etc. It is also undeniable that he became a target of a defamation campaign conducted by Russian state (publications in state-controlled or influenced media, and especially TV). How to deal with it? Let's use two standard suggestions per our policies.
#Let's use secondary RS. I mean books by known authors.
#Let's focus on factual information supported by multiple RS, rather than on opinion pieces about him. Can source X be used to provide views by person A about Berezovsky? Yes, it can, but we do not need opinion pieces, especially of defamatory nature. Biophys (talk) 12:11, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I support Biophys position on this - clearly there are all sorts of allegations, we don't have a duty to report them. We have a duty to report about this person as high a standard as we can - in this case imo considering some of the dubious reporting standards about him that means raising our standards to keep such content out of the article. - simply report the actual details about him and keep the allegations out as much as is clearly possible. And harry thought he was behind the murder of jane as was added a couple of days ago is the type of content I am talking about,  we need to consider carefully what we repeat in this BLP and we should imo keep it lean and focused. Off2riorob (talk) 21:58, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It wasn't some harry, it was the Russian prosecutor's office. The allegations may be false, but they are notable and they are part of his biography. There is no need to hide the fact that the Russian officials have been fabricating cases against Berezovsky. Klebnikov's semi-fiction, on the other hand, should be kept out of this page. Colchicum (talk) 22:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Colchcum, in this case it was not the Russian prosecutor's office, it was an unattributed leak from "a source", about an alleged confession of a man in jail, which, according to human rights observers, could have been obtained under torture. It was never officially confirmed. The way it was leaked, picked up by Western well-wishers, and presented as a legitimate accusation smacks of a classic disinformation operation in the style of the old KGB.--Kolokol1 (talk) 22:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There were many more accusations before, voiced by Dovgy, Chaika and even Putin himself. See a section above. Don't worry, nobody is going to believe this bullshit. But it is notable that this disinformation campaign takes place, and there is nothing in Wikipedia policies that would prevent us from reporting it, as long as we don't endorse it. The latest spat of accusation can wait until it is officially confirmed, of course, but I don't see why this would be helpful. Colchicum (talk) 22:55, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I responded above in Anna Allegations. Actually I do not object. Perhaps a separate section on Politkovskaya should be included. I am simply concerned that this bio is turning into a book and will collapse under its own weight:-)--Kolokol1 (talk) 23:14, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Way forward

message: Please comment/amend sourced facts for a new subsection of the article:
*Putin's meteoric rise in the course of only one year from relative obscurity to the presidency of Russia has been attributed to his endearment with the Family, under Berezovsky's tutelage. By the end of 1999 the Family persuaded Yeltsin to name Putin his political successor and nominate him for presidency  
*Berezovsky's acquaintance with Putin dates back to the early 90'es, when he, as the Deputy Mayor, helped Logovaz establish a car dealership in St. Petersburg.  9780743281799/Baker-Peter-and-Glasser-Susan/custserv-ebooks.php?s=1&PAGE=adobe|"Kremlin Rising: Vladimir Putin's Russia and the End of Revolution" By Peter Baker, Susan Glasser Page 52-53
*Later Berezovsky took Putin skiing with him in Switzerland. 
*In February 1999, when Berezovsky's political standing looked uncertain because of his clash with prime-minister Evgeny Primakov over Aeroflot, Putin, then Director of FSB, made a bold gesture by showing up at a birthday party for Berezovsky's wife. "I absolutely do not care what Primakov thinks of me", Putin told Berezovsky on that night. That was the beginning of their political allianace. 
*According to the Times, Spanish police discovered that Putin had secretly visited a villa in Spain belonging to Berezovsky on up to five different occasions in 1999. 
*In mid summer 1999 the Family dispatched Berezovsky to Biarritz, were Putin was vacationing, to persuade him to accept the position of prime minister and the role of  heir apparent 
*On August 9 Yeltsin sacked the government of Sergei Stepashin and appointed Putin prime minister amid reports that Berezovsky masterminded the reshuffle 
*In the end of 1999, Berezovsky was instrumental in creating in just a few months and funding the Unity party with no ideology other than its support for Putin.  
*Later he disclosed  that the money  to fund Unity were taken from Aeroflot with Putin's knowledge and consent 
*Berezovsky campaigned as Putin's loyalist and in December 1999 won a seat in the Duma from the North Caucasian republic of Karachaevo-Cherkessia 
*During the Duma election campaign of 1999 his ORT TV became an extremely effective propaganda tool for the Putin camp using agressive attack reporting and programming to degrade and ridicule Putin's rivals, former Prime Minister Evgeny Primakov and Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov. Unity got surprisingly high score in the elections paving the way to Putin's election victory in spring 2000.  --Kolokol1 (talk) 00:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this is all supported by RS (also look in the book "Death of Dissident"), but you need a coherent text, not a fact sheet. One must also explain what does it mean "Yeltsin's family" . Perhaps we even need a separate article on Yeltsin's family. Biophys (talk) 22:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your input. You are right, this should be rewritten as a narrative, but I intentionally first put it as bullet points to give everyone an opportunity to contest these items one by one.  Regarding the "Family" , the article, as it stands now, has two subsections, "2.5 The Kremlin Family" and "2.6 Conflict with Putin and emigration". 2.5 clearly explains what "Family" is. Chronologically the proposed section, "Role in Putin's Rise to Power" should go right between them, which would make a special definition of the "Family" unneccessary--Kolokol1 (talk) 23:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What you are talking about could be best described in a separate article, something like Operation "Successor", see book "Corporation" by Felshtinsky and Pribylovsky. Biophys (talk) 13:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we are trying to write the biography of Berezovsky, not Putin. Berezovsky's role in creating Putin is an important part of this bio, but must be reflected here only inasmuch it concerns Berezovsky. Obviously, it should also be reflected in the biography of Putin himself. However, Berezovsky was not alone in bringing Putin to power. "Operation "Successor" is more about Putin than Berezovsky, so it does not belong here. I would not use Felshtinsky books, just as Goldfarb's and Klebnikov's as a primary sources, because they are all biased. There are plenty of independent sources.--Kolokol1 (talk) 16:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is currently protected, so you might wish edit something else. All sources are biased. I am usually looking for a book written by the best expert(s) on a specific narrowly defined subject. Good luck. Biophys (talk) 18:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "all sources are biased"? Major Western newspapers, which I used here, are not biased at all. Books written by loyalists or enemies of the subject, are. Books such as "Kremlin Rising", by Baker and Glasser, the two Washington Post correspondents in Moscow, are not--Kolokol1 (talk) 23:55, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: An author (e.g. a Western journalist) study the subject, comes to certain conclusions, and describes the subject in a certain manner that can be extremely biased (e.g. a lot of reports by US media are extremely biased and misleading because authors do not understand the subject). The problem is not the bias, but the knowledge. For example, Solzhanitsyn knows Gulag subjects much better than Applebaum who never even was there. Same would with biologist who study certain subjects his entire life versus a fresh PhD student. Biophys (talk) 12:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Western journalists in major newspapers are subject to fact-chechking editorial policy, and constrained by liability for slander. Russian sources are generally not, and very few of them care about professional reputation because standards are different. Paid journalists are an exception in the West and a rule in Russia. To use you science analogy it is like comparing a publication in a peer-reviewed journal or in your private blog. With regard to books, many of them, like Felshtinsky or Goldfarb do not source their research at all. Klebnikov's possible bias has been discussed enough. I would rather rely on The New York Times and BBC than on these questionable sources--Kolokol1 (talk) 15:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

text: I have made some minor grammatical and stylistic changes to the text below.  I cannot comment on whether it is complete but it seems well-sourced and is clearly notable enough to merit inclusion. Quite right to discuss significant further content on this talk page in view of the controversies.Videsutaltastet (talk) 22:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factsheet for "Berezovsky's role in Putin's Rise to Power" 

message: I merged the subsections on the Family and Purin's rise into one, to make the narrative smoother and more logical--Kolokol1 (talk) 11:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not seem very smooth. There is no logical connections between some paragraphs in this section. Biophys (talk) 00:42, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge two subsections 

message: There is a new court case in London this week. 
* Russian tycoons face off in London court
I wonder why this case is litigated in England. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:18, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Although your wondering is pretty much incorrect usage of wikipedia talkpages, its a simple situation - Berezovsky is a British asylum granted subject and Abbram has a legal and personal life in the UK also its unbelievable that there is any other location possible. Off2riorob (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The matter of jurisdiction of this case has been the subject of a major legal battle between them that lasted over three years. Berezovsky, who wanted to litigate in London won. According to news reports, the major point of contention is whether Abramovich held Berezovsky's stake in Sibneft in trust. In Russian commercial law there is no notion of a trust, so there would be no case in Russia.  We do have a brief mention of this case in the article. I do not think that it should be reflected here in any depth until it ends in December. WP is not a newsmagazine.--Kolokol1 (talk) 00:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

text: I think POV label can be removed by now. If anyone has objections, let's discuss and fix remaining problems. Biophys ([[User 
talk:Hodja Nasreddin|talk]]) 01:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

text: I have removed the tag. The editor with the alleged COI has not edited the article in over a year. Thincat (talk) 18:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  2011 court case in London 

message: This one is essential reading before we all start arguing: 
http://rbth.ru/politics/2013/04/12/boris_berezovsky_back_to_black_24971.html
144.136.192.55 (talk) 03:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well. No "engagement" from Russavia, but the baton has been tossed to Collect. No change then. The usual so-called Wikipedians are eager to revert and delete, but REFUSE to discuss anything - while they INSIST others should. THEY can be "Bold", others must first go to the Talk page - where they'll make certain the "conversation" ever gets started. Brilliant. (But I do LOVE Russavia's cutesy little "Let's dialogue" replacement for her Talk page. Sarcasm is always so welcome here, isn't it? Why not just use "Talk to the hand" and be honest?) 
*And now Collect, as always, has come to the "rescue" and decided, unilaterally, that these are not useful:
**
** Boris Berezovsky at Encyclopædia Britannica
**
**
**
**Works by or about Boris Berezovsky in libraries (WorldCat catalog)
Well, let's see. His official site. Yeah, I can see why THAT would be irrelevant. Encyclopaedia Britannica? Most people consider that the "gold standard" of non-crowd-sourced encyclopedias, well worth reading. C-SPAN, Charlie Rose, and IMDb? Oh right - let's NOT, by ANY means, encourage our readers to watch the man himself talking. And WorldCat? Books by the man himself, as well as books about him? Heavens! Readers might make up their own minds, as opposed to believing whatever this little "consensus" of "Wikipedians" (aka Russavia, who brags about  to remove every single External link which presents anypresenting the "correct POV") believes. Can't have that! The sheep must be TOLD what to believe! No further reading allowed! They must be firmly instructed (Russavia again) to wade through all the tabloid junk in Google News - knowing full well they DON'T want to do that, which is why they came to Wikipedia in the first place. But you just keep on being snarky about our users, Russavia, and show as much contempt for them as you feel. Look guys, you're on your own. You clearly have Jimmy Wales's full support to excise Every Single Viewpoint other than your own from this article, and every other article, spinning them to your heart's content. Go for it. Destroy Wikipedia's reputation. Drive off more editors. And I hope you get EXACTLY what you have coming. Unfortunately, so will everyone else. 75.59.206.69 (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Woot.  The "as always" implies this IP has another name, I suspect.  Meanwhile, use of such ELs has been discussed, inter alia, at WP:EL/N etc.   And allowed.   The Britannica etc. are not generally considered RS as they are tertiary sources.   His own stie is SPS and also not specifically RS for Wikipedia purposes.   Imdb has generally been held not to meet WP:RS.  As long as the links are to impeccable reliable sources, the use is allowed on Wikipedia.  And so I tried to keep all the WP:RS sources, which Russavia seemed to think should also be eliminated.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read the Jimbo Wales Talk page, and you never fail to disappoint. So now you claim EL Guidelines don't apply to you? Not even Russavia had the nerve delete the guy's own official site. I changed the format to one I've seen used in other articles. I did NOT add it for the first time.You seem to have been at Wikipedia long enough to know the rules, and various strings of initials which you claim support what you do. With no links of course, as you obviously are intent on trying to intimidate me. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit", eh? Just who are you working for? 75.60.16.116 (talk) 18:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Um -- Wikipedia policies and guidelines are not "bullshit" no matter your opinion. Collect (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The links have been deleted as per WP:ELNO #9. Please familiarise oneself with that WP:ELNO before inserting a collection of external links on WP. Any information contained within those links should be contained in the article, and only on very rare cases should there be external links to news sources and the like. The applies not only to this article, but all articles on WP. Y u no be Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 06:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And you are misusing WP:ELNO utterly.    Under which specific claim do you assert that the links are improper?  Since they are not misleading, not self-published, not a "news aggregator", not containing "malware", not with "objectionable amounts of advertising", that do not "require registration", not "inaccessible", not requiring a "plug-in", not a "search engine", not wikis, not on "general" subjects, not a manufacturer, not something linked through Wikipedia tools, links which are dead links, tracking or referral links,  "navigation template" links, links to organizations mentioned in an article which are already thus linked or should be linked,  or that this article is a "stand alone list"?  I think I named all the actual ELNO possibilities, and none of them appear to apply.  Perhaps you can find another reason?  Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not only a literal reading of WP:ELNO but also the spirit of what that guideline states. The links are in essence against the spirit of "Links to any search results pages, such as links to individual website searches, search engines, search aggregators, or RSS feeds." That they are reliable sources is not part of the equation; what is part of the equation is that they are results to individual website searches. RS only applies to sources which are being used for information within the actual article. And as I stated as the TfD, where does it end? Why would a link to RIA Novosti not be included, but we include CNN, Forbes, Bloomberg, etc? Or why not a link to Newstube with videos? Or what about a similar link to Kommersant, etc, etc. Or why not just allow anyone who is interested to use their own searches on something like Google, and find more information themselves, instead of us spoonfeeding them links which for all intents and purposes are already used as sources on the actual article itself? Y u no be Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 14:02, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your problem is that none of the ELNO criteria are met by the examples given.   Youtube etc. are not WP:RS but CNN etc. are generally accepted as RS, so that "example" fails miserably.  Cheers - now try to find an actual WP compliant rationale.  Collect (talk) 14:50, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: External links / Further reading 

message: This means all contentious claims must be specifically sourced per WP:RS and also no "original research" (such as "he has not contested the book") are permitted per Wikipedia policies.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:13, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violation of Wikipedia Deletion policy 

message: The institution where Berezovsky was employed before the 1990s, , is best translated as the Institute of Control Sciences, see the official website.--Ymblanter (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The science seems to be control theory, not mind control :-) Petri Krohn (talk) 15:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Institute name 

message: In the box we habe Yelena Gorbunova (1996–2012; separated), but http://rt.com/news/berezovsky-lawsuit-lover-641/ say Gorbunova live for 2o years with Berezovsky (1992-2012).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Falkmart (talk • contribs) 11:29, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yelena Gorbunova  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: My edition was reverted for apparently not being constructive but I tried to make it consistent with other articles. JohnLogan1600 (talk) 17:53, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening to the page