Talk:Vakıflı, Samandağ

message: == Sources in English if possible ==
Some of these assertions need English sources for me to be comfortable.--Golden Wattle  talk 01:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP policy does not require it, though English sources are preferred obviously. Problem is, although I have found English sources in google, they tend to be web sites of visitors to the village or blogs, whereas I have quoted published newspaper articles from major Turkish daily newspapers. Again, although not a source that an article can use as a reference,  Armeniapedia has material that backs up the assertions. And of course, reliable sources in English that I have missed would greatly be appreciated and would improve the article. --Free smyrnan 01:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a good source in English that I found. Perhaps we could add it to the article. Khoikhoi 01:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Checking article history, the assertion that the government helped with the church restoration was added in this edit: 110212263 by ROOB323. I have dropped a note to his/her talk page. --Free smyrnan 17:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You are probably right in Georgia or Russia having Armenian villages. I came across it as something the villagers themselves said. It is very difficult to prove the non-existence of something. Thanks for your improvements! --Free smyrnan 17:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if this website is reliable or not, but I added the information that "The village church has recently been reconstructed..." from this website  paragraph 15. ROOB323 20:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Orig from Radio free europe and was already cited in article. I added cite to the church assertion.--Free smyrnan 22:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Raffi, although probably your visit to the village and your observations there are very valid, unfortunately it seems WP policy to cite obsessively. If you can provide some citations for the dialect and other changes you've made, it would be greatly appreciated. --Free smyrnan 22:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I see the reference to the Turkish Govt assistance in fixing up the church in the RFE/RL article, and my memory of the plaque was that it was the Armenians of Istanbul or the Patriarchate.  I will check my picture of the plaque when I can - since that is the original source of the article as well :-)  The dialect is extremely different as a web search will allude to here and there, but no good "source" as far as I can find.  It was funny to find a website devoted to the Musa Ler "Language"!  How's that for proclaiming the difference from other dialects?  But it is only under construction.  I think a  could be added wherever you feel necessary and hopefully published sources can be found.  Unfortunately this tiny village is not the topic of many articles/publications.  --RaffiKojian 01:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: A roundabout reference to the dialect issue can be found in an Associated Press article at http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23362 stating about ANJAR that "the people speak a dialect few other Armenians understand".  Of course, the people originate from Musa Ler as we know.  So there it is.  The same article also states that this is the only Armenian town outside of Armenia.  That, as we know, is not quite right.  Aside from the exceptions in the Caucasus I noted, I understand that there are a very small number of Arabs now living in Anjar.  Even more Arabs now live in Kessab, Syria, just across the border from Turkey near Musa Ler - which was until recently another all-Armenian settlement.  --RaffiKojian 01:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, do you mind adding that ref? I also found two refs to articles published about the Vakifli dialect in particular, both from 1968, same author: Georges Dumézil, "Le parler Arménien de Vakifli" and Textes en Arménien de Vakifli , 1968, from Révue des Etudes Arméniennes. If we can find these I think it would be great, perhaps then you could expand the dialect bit a little? --Free smyrnan 05:28, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Found ref!!! Le parler Arménien de Vakifli. On savait que le parler de Musa Dağı était très original... and goes ahead to describe. What I also found interesting is that Dumézil speaks of other villages, no longer exclusively Armenian which seems to contradict that the other Musa dagi villages immigrated out in 1939 - Yoğunoluk and Hıdırbey having the same dialect, Kapısuyu and Çevlik where their specific dialect seems extinct, and a 3rd dialect at Hacihabibli and Batıayaz, where Batıayaz has only 2 families and the other no longer any Armenians. --Free smyrnan 06:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Other ref!!! Textes en arménien de Vakifli. Also present in the article above is a ref by study on Vakifli, demographics, social life etc: Vakifli köyü by Doğru (Bayazit), Nigan; Sencer, Muzaffer; Sencer, Oya; Sey, Yıldız; Yücel, Atilla 206 pages. ITU, Architecture faculty, 1966. --Free smyrnan 06:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These article appear to be in a format I cannot open and a language I cannot understand - so I leave them to you to decipher :-) --RaffiKojian 15:28, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Format djvu and is present as a plugin for the irfanview program, one of the freely available viewing programs on the Windows platform. Of course in Linux it comes already supported. I would like to ask you (or another Armenian speaker editor who wishes to collaborate on this) to please check these articles since about 90% of each article is actually transcriptions of the dialect of Vakifli, not French. The French I can help with, no problem, but I think these articles are valuable in delineating just how the dialect differs. For example he refers to archaisms such as multiple prepositions, and innovations of fracturing certain vowels, the loss of the suffix article -e with compensations in the last syllable of nouns (adding an extra -m). Not speaking Armenian is a hindrance for being able to make use of this source fully, and I think having a section on the dialect spoken in Vakifli would greatly enhance the article.  --Free smyrnan 16:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have a problem with this, and I am more than willing to have the article reflect this. If we can find an article that refers to another 100% Armenian village, then I understand, within the WP rules, we can take out the sentence that makes the claim. --Free smyrnan 00:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I replaced the photo with one without a watermark.  As for "an article that refers...", here you go: http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/ACOS-64C5PA?OpenDocument --RaffiKojian 12:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, sentence taken out that makes the claim. --Free smyrnan 06:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: Some of these assertions need English sources for me to be comfortable.--Golden Wattle  talk 01:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP policy does not require it, though English sources are preferred obviously. Problem is, although I have found English sources in google, they tend to be web sites of visitors to the village or blogs, whereas I have quoted published newspaper articles from major Turkish daily newspapers. Again, although not a source that an article can use as a reference,  Armeniapedia has material that backs up the assertions. And of course, reliable sources in English that I have missed would greatly be appreciated and would improve the article. --Free smyrnan 01:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a good source in English that I found. Perhaps we could add it to the article. Khoikhoi 01:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources in English if possible 

message: I would like to point out that Georgia, and possibly Russia have Armenian villages - so the assertion in the article is wrong - it should say the only Armenian village outside of the Caucasus, rather than outside of Armenia and Karabakh.  Also, it is in fact the only completely Armenian village which speaks a western Armenian dialect, a very very thick one at that, which standardized Armenian speakers cannot comprehend.  When I visited the village in 2004, there was no mention that the government helped with the church restoration - what is the source on that?  --RaffiKojian 17:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Checking article history, the assertion that the government helped with the church restoration was added in this edit: 110212263 by ROOB323. I have dropped a note to his/her talk page. --Free smyrnan 17:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You are probably right in Georgia or Russia having Armenian villages. I came across it as something the villagers themselves said. It is very difficult to prove the non-existence of something. Thanks for your improvements! --Free smyrnan 17:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if this website is reliable or not, but I added the information that "The village church has recently been reconstructed..." from this website  paragraph 15. ROOB323 20:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Orig from Radio free europe and was already cited in article. I added cite to the church assertion.--Free smyrnan 22:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Raffi, although probably your visit to the village and your observations there are very valid, unfortunately it seems WP policy to cite obsessively. If you can provide some citations for the dialect and other changes you've made, it would be greatly appreciated. --Free smyrnan 22:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I see the reference to the Turkish Govt assistance in fixing up the church in the RFE/RL article, and my memory of the plaque was that it was the Armenians of Istanbul or the Patriarchate.  I will check my picture of the plaque when I can - since that is the original source of the article as well :-)  The dialect is extremely different as a web search will allude to here and there, but no good "source" as far as I can find.  It was funny to find a website devoted to the Musa Ler "Language"!  How's that for proclaiming the difference from other dialects?  But it is only under construction.  I think a  could be added wherever you feel necessary and hopefully published sources can be found.  Unfortunately this tiny village is not the topic of many articles/publications.  --RaffiKojian 01:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: A roundabout reference to the dialect issue can be found in an Associated Press article at http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23362 stating about ANJAR that "the people speak a dialect few other Armenians understand".  Of course, the people originate from Musa Ler as we know.  So there it is.  The same article also states that this is the only Armenian town outside of Armenia.  That, as we know, is not quite right.  Aside from the exceptions in the Caucasus I noted, I understand that there are a very small number of Arabs now living in Anjar.  Even more Arabs now live in Kessab, Syria, just across the border from Turkey near Musa Ler - which was until recently another all-Armenian settlement.  --RaffiKojian 01:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, do you mind adding that ref? I also found two refs to articles published about the Vakifli dialect in particular, both from 1968, same author: Georges Dumézil, "Le parler Arménien de Vakifli" and Textes en Arménien de Vakifli , 1968, from Révue des Etudes Arméniennes. If we can find these I think it would be great, perhaps then you could expand the dialect bit a little? --Free smyrnan 05:28, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Found ref!!! Le parler Arménien de Vakifli. On savait que le parler de Musa Dağı était très original... and goes ahead to describe. What I also found interesting is that Dumézil speaks of other villages, no longer exclusively Armenian which seems to contradict that the other Musa dagi villages immigrated out in 1939 - Yoğunoluk and Hıdırbey having the same dialect, Kapısuyu and Çevlik where their specific dialect seems extinct, and a 3rd dialect at Hacihabibli and Batıayaz, where Batıayaz has only 2 families and the other no longer any Armenians. --Free smyrnan 06:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Other ref!!! Textes en arménien de Vakifli. Also present in the article above is a ref by study on Vakifli, demographics, social life etc: Vakifli köyü by Doğru (Bayazit), Nigan; Sencer, Muzaffer; Sencer, Oya; Sey, Yıldız; Yücel, Atilla 206 pages. ITU, Architecture faculty, 1966. --Free smyrnan 06:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These article appear to be in a format I cannot open and a language I cannot understand - so I leave them to you to decipher :-) --RaffiKojian 15:28, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Format djvu and is present as a plugin for the irfanview program, one of the freely available viewing programs on the Windows platform. Of course in Linux it comes already supported. I would like to ask you (or another Armenian speaker editor who wishes to collaborate on this) to please check these articles since about 90% of each article is actually transcriptions of the dialect of Vakifli, not French. The French I can help with, no problem, but I think these articles are valuable in delineating just how the dialect differs. For example he refers to archaisms such as multiple prepositions, and innovations of fracturing certain vowels, the loss of the suffix article -e with compensations in the last syllable of nouns (adding an extra -m). Not speaking Armenian is a hindrance for being able to make use of this source fully, and I think having a section on the dialect spoken in Vakifli would greatly enhance the article.  --Free smyrnan 16:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have a problem with this, and I am more than willing to have the article reflect this. If we can find an article that refers to another 100% Armenian village, then I understand, within the WP rules, we can take out the sentence that makes the claim. --Free smyrnan 00:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I replaced the photo with one without a watermark.  As for "an article that refers...", here you go: http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/ACOS-64C5PA?OpenDocument --RaffiKojian 12:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, sentence taken out that makes the claim. --Free smyrnan 06:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Only village outside of Caucasus, church citations

message: There are two references, by Georges Dumézil (very notable author) that studies the dialect of Vakifli. They are in French and go into quite a bit of detail (examples given) of the Armenian dialect spoken in the village. I would like to ask an Armenian speaker to study these with me (if help in French is necessary) in order to add a section on the dialect of Vakifli. Format of the articles is djvu. The references - also cited in the above discussion: 
Le parler Arménien de Vakifli.
Textes en arménien de Vakifli --Free smyrnan 06:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dialect of Vakifli 

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thread_title:  External links modified