Talk:Anna Leonowens

message: Anna, of course, claimed that he husband, Mr Leon Owen , was an officer in the Welsh Guards. However, research has shown that there was no officer of that name in this or in any other regiment of the British army. It seems clear too that she was of mixed race and certainly no gentlewoman. Research has shown also that her husband was an inn keeper in India and that he sister married a common soldier in the British army in India.
Her role at court was not at all what she claimed. She ran one of several schools within the palace where children of courtiers and others could receive education (such schools still exist in the palace). She was never a tutor to the Prince Chulalongkorn, who, as heir to the throne, was tutored by leading aristocrats of great learning. She may, however, have practiced English with him. 
:Then why did he thank her years later? 64.132.218.4 (talk) 20:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Er--then why was she in his will? 64.132.218.4 (talk) 20:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

text: We "westerners" don't take an enjoyable musical or movie as fact, and we don't have any concept of "lese majesty."  No one here promotes those stories as historic truths; Mrs. Leonowens's story is not nearly as well-known here as it apparently is over there.  If you have citations for all your claims, you should edit the article.64.132.218.4 (talk) 20:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anna a Complusive Liar 

message: I've tagged this article for POV and references.  This thing is filled with opinion, extraneous references, conjecture, weasel words, etc.  It will soon be seriously redacted unless some large-scale sourcing is undertaken.  It is also claimed to be an unpublished opus, a personal essay, which is not permitted by Wikipedia. —J M Rice 03:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree.  The article, as it stands right now, simply does not belong in Wikipedia.  I understand the need for some Thai royalists to fight for their monarchy, but libel like this is disgraceful.  The current King himself has noted "An encyclopedia should be accurate and informative, without the need for biased judgments". Patiwat 07:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heavy duty editing pending 

message: Some weasel words make there way into the "Her role in the royal court" section, distorting NPOV.
It has been said that Anna Leonowens, in her memoirs of 1870, exaggerated the importance of her role in the King's court and suggested that she had a greater degree of influence than she could possibly have had in reality.
:This is a straight-forward accusation that should be clearly referenced.  "It has been said" leaves the reader a bit confused... who said it?  where?  under what circumstances?  Without a clear citation, this sentence should be deleted. Patiwat 06:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Offending paragraph removed for reasons stated above.  Patiwat 17:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This wording seems overly speculative for an encyclopedia biographical article.  Also, the truthfulness of those who retold her story isn't really relevant to an article on Anna Leonowens.  Why should the "truthfullness" of a screenplay writer have any bearing on the truthfulness of Leonowens?  If someone reputable has clearly questioned her truthfulness (and I understand there are quite a few), then a citation should be given. Patiwat 06:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Offending paragraph removed.  Popularity of story irrelevent to the topic at hand. Patiwat 17:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasely language 

message: Pardon me for what may be cultural ignorance, but the article seems to be making some implicit racial arguments about that I'm not sure are relevant.  The article states up front that she is partly Welsh, English, and Indian.  It then ends by saying that those who have portrayed her on stage "have never given a hint of Anna's alleged Welsh origins -- let alone her actual mixed-race background."  This leaves me a bit confused.  I had never realized that 1) Welsh people looked any different from caucasian anglo-saxon people, and that 2) casting decisions made over a hundred years after Leonowens died had any relevance to Leonowens, the individual.  Surely the fact that Yul Brynner and Chow-Yen Fat didn't look anything like a Thai should not be mentioned in the article on King Mongkut?  Or should it?  "Revived many times on stage, the musical has remained a favourite of the theatre-going public, and the acters who have played the part have never given a hint of Mongkut's Thai origins."  It seems a bit silly to me, and I have no idea why it is mentioned at all here. Patiwat 06:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Race 

message: Dictionary.com defines "governess" as "a woman employed to educate and train the children of a private household."  Basically, a private tutor.  The article clearly says that she taught English in the royal household.  Doesn't that make her a governess?  So why is the article making such a fuss about the fact that she "claimed" she was a governess when she was only a teacher.  Regarding this specific point, I don't see why the article trying to question her truthfulness, when I as a reasonable reader and dictionary user can't seem to see how she is being untruthful. Patiwat 06:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Female Private Teacher = Governess? 

message: One out of three paragraphs in the "Governess" section is devoted to analyzing a scene from movies filmed a long time after she died.  This is an article about Leonowens, not about movies.  Factual criticism of the movies should occur in the articles on the movies, not here.  Furthermore, the scene in question (Leonowens coming to Siam for the first time) has nothing to do with her functions as a governess/teacher.  If someone really wants to write about Leonowens' first impressions of Thailand, then that should occur in a "First impressions of Thailand" section, not the "Governess" section. Patiwat 06:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Making a fuss about the movie 

message: I can't seem to find what "S.S.P.P." stands for.  It isn't mentioned in the article on King Mongkut.  Can anybody explain?  My suspicion is that it is similar in meaning to "R[ex]", the way King Bhumibol signs his name Bhumibol Adulyadej P.R.  If this were so, it woulnd't be appropriate to refer to him as "S.S.P.P. Maha Mongkut", but rather as simply "King Mongkut". Patiwat 07:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  S.S.P.P Maha Mongkut 

message: I have restored my edits.  The article as it stands is not a stump, as claimed by the reverter.  Apparently, there are factions who have embraced the Anna Leonowens "cause," pro and con.  Wikipedia is not the place for this. — J M Rice 12:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restored Edits 

message: In 2003, the Art & Culture Magazine (a respected Thai publication) discovered 8 letters written by King Mongkut addressed to Anna Leonowens gathering dust in the National Archives.  These letters make it very clear that Leonowens was no mere English teacher, but was effectively a political negotiator for King Mongkut.  I will incorporate content from these letters in a rewrite of several sections of the article.  Read the letters and commentary in Thai in articles entitled "Anna Leonowens: Who says she's a compulsive liar?" (http://www.matichon.co.th/art/art.php?srctag=0604010147&srcday=2005%2F09%2F01&search=no) and "King Mongkut’s letters to Anna: When Madame Teacher plays political negotiator" (http://www.matichon.co.th/art/art.php?srctag=0652010447&srcday=2005%2F09%2F01&search=no).  Read further commentary at http://sanpaworn.vissaventure.com/?id=188.  My favorite words: "Nothing’s more gratifying to debunk than a false debunking." Patiwat 04:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letters from King Mongkut to Anna Leonowens 

message: According to biographer Susan J. Morgan Ph.D., Anna was born on November 26, 1831 NOT November 6th.
Dr. Morgan's book, "Bombay Anna" was reviewed in The New York Times on October 12, 2008.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starfish1014 (talk • contribs) 02:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Elizabeth Baigent and Lois K. Yorke in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, online edition, January 2008, give her date of birth as 6 November 1831, apparently citing Bombay ecclesiastical records, BL OIOC.  I don't know which date is correct.  I suppose we could try emailing the British Library at apac-enquiries@bl.uk for clarification. They'd probably be happy to check.  Lachrie (talk) 08:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica online says Nov. 6, 1831, so I'm changing all of them to Nov. 6.  --108.45.72.196 (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  DATE of Anna's birth 

message: Re: ...and took pains to disguise her humble origins by writing that she had been born a Crawford in Caernarfon. There is no Crawford in Caernarfon. Can this statement be verified? Citation needed.
Secondly: any further info on her father? Thanks. 195.62.202.141 (talk) 06:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In her memoirs she says she was born Anna Harriette Crawford in Caernarvon, the daughter of Thomas M. Crawford, a British Army captain, who was killed by the Sikhs at Lahore.  Her date of birth in older secondary sources is usually given as 5 November 1834. I'll see if I can locate the precise reference in the text, and get back to you.  Lachrie (talk) 09:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica online  also shows place of birth as Ahmadnagar, India.  --108.45.72.196 (talk) 00:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caernarfon? 

message: Patrick Donohoe was born 1820 married Mary in 1832 (soon after Anna was born) thus marrying at 12.
The correct Patrick Donohoe can be found in the biography Bombay Anna (can be seen in google books starting page 34). He never received a VC, was born in a different part of Ireland and died in India.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.64.46.8 (talk) 20:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Patrick Donohoe mentioned is not correct  

message: There ought to be a wiki page on The English Governess at the Siamese Court. It would be of the highest interest, even though its claims are disputed. Valetude (talk) 16:38, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Her memoirs 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I added a parenthetical mention of zenana missions, next to the statement about the deficiencies of the education provided by European Christian women; it was swiftly reverted. I think readers interested in understanding the context of why the King chose to hire a secular outsider, rather than one of the trained US/UK teachers already in Bangkok, would be best served by having access to this article. If they've never heard of zenana missions, they cannot search for the term. I don't mind if it's moved to a better section (even see also), but it has a place in the article somewhere. --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to see you here! I am the evil "reverter" of course although I did not revert without reading the "zenana" article - and I could see your point. Context is indeed all, nonetheless. The King's objection to "missionary education" (as it functioned in India, Thailand, and for that matter in many other countries) was that it centred on making its pupils good Christians (which he wouldn't have wanted in the least), and at the same time neglected secular aspects of Western learning (which he was keen for his children to acquire). This is itself a little aside really, in an article about Anna herself - so that in this context in particular the "zenana" bit would need to be very well (and specifically) "connected" and tied to known fact. The zenana missionaries seem indeed to have been frankly concerned with proselytising rather than "education" (true to a greater or lesser extent of all Christian missionaries of course) and the King himself was quite shrewd enough to realise this - but we are getting into the realm of barely relevant conjecture in raising a link to zenana missionaries as such. Perhaps as a "see also" link? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:39, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm happy for zenana mission to go in a See Also section. --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:48, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  context is all