Talk:Open world/Sandbox (video games)

message: * Football Manager, Championship Manager etc (Never-ending gameplay)
* Splinter Cell series, but especially Splinter Cell: Double Agent (Freedom to experiment)
* Silent Hunter series, with the exculsion of Silent Hunter II (Freedom to experiment)(Non-linear or nonexistent plot)
* Total War series of games (Shogun, Rome, Medieval) (Non-linear or nonexistent plot)
Kevinbi2004 17:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More Games

message: Should we add some roguelikes to the list here? They seem to fit the description rather well
Lochok 02:11, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rougelikes

message: [Re: removal of HTML-commented notes I added; see edit summaries in history for comments rational and reversion rationale. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ]
First of all, in the future, you should probably use the talk page if you want to talk about an issue, don't leave a comment in the code. It makes it that much harder to read, and this kind of discussion about the page write-up is what these talk pages are for.
But anyway... yes, it was a press release. However, it's incredibly difficult to get reliable cites otherwise for video game sales (NPD has a lock on most major records, and you have to pay for that information). But it's Electronic Arts, a publically-traded company - it is hardly likely they would make up these numbers, when the series is such an obvious sucess. This figure has pretty much never been remotely contested by any PC games in the last 5 years or so. (It's part of the overall Decline of PC game sales in the US). I really didn't think this was a very contestable source, but I have no problem with replacing the cite with a more objective source.--SevereTireDamage 03:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, on your first paragraph there.  I'm tired and I was being lazy.  Not necessarily agreed on your removal of the other HTML comment in there, which was strategically placed to help whoever next came along with an eye to improving that bit in particular.  But not a big deal either way.  As to the 2nd para: If you get into the WP:-space discussions far enough, the guidelines on vanity posting, neutrality and citations basically converge on a clear consensus that quoting a company, band, whatever, or and advocate of that entity, about their own output, to source anything other than the barest uncontroversial facts ("this model of our product is grey", "the company is based in London", etc.) is essentially an unsourced claim (citation or not! - the source is non-reliable or at least non-neutral).  It's a vanity-post-by-proxy, in a sense.  So, I'm suggesting it be replaced by a gaming/computer industry publication statement that supports the claim based on their own market analysis (i.e. not just parroting the EA press release.)  Maybe I'm being anal, but that sort of refrerence citation triggers a big flappy waving red flag in my mind.  :-)  — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 03:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation 

message: It seems like a sandbox game to me. You can choose 4 different paths, catch different monsters, and basically have your own 'style' of playing. I wanted to see what other people thought before posting it in the article. Also, would it go under 'Strategy' or 'RPG'?
Are the different paths linear?guitarhero777777 06:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. -- ~PinkDeoxys~ 18:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LostMagic 

message: Have reverted to previous edit; paragraph which mentioned "Elite" was removed and the text subsequently didn't make sense. Also within this topic there is evidently a cross-over to "Open-ended" forms of gameplay, and the entry was discussing this, even though they are now very distinct styles. Major Bloodnok 08:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion

message: Based on a recent notability comment on the GTA clone page, I think it may be worthwhile to consider moving some of the content from the GTA Clone page into this one.  (I'm going to post this suggestion there too).  Basically, I think it is notable that the specific "GTA" style clone made a big impact on future games (the "History" part of that article, which can be inserted here as a subsection near the top as "GTA Influence"), but most of the rest of that article really is just lists for lists sake, and references to these clones in GTA, which may or may not be needed.--Masem 17:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Doom clone is not merged into FPS, GTA clone is not merged into this. --Joffeloff 12:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doom clone is as bad if not worst than GTA clone, because the first-person shooter article covers nearly everything in Doom Clone, and there's very little that the clone article adds; the term does need to be called out in the FPS article, but there's no point in having an extra article which basically duplicates information and maybe adds one or two new items.   (Basically save for a couple, all the game genre articles are in terrible shape and need major work, this merging is part of the work). --Masem 13:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggesting merge of [[GTA clone]] into this 

message: I am suggesting the merging of two articles,  Open-ended (gameplay), GTA Clone, into this one.  Reasons include:
- If you look at other video game genre pages such as platformer, the articles are less about just listing examples and give a good breakdown of what variations are in that in that field with a few SELECT examples.  These four articles (this one and the three I have listed) are not well written, but I think overall would provide a very good article in the same lines.
- "Open-ended" games are a subset of sandbox games in that, as noted on their talk page, there is generally no fixed end point of the game (eg Sim City).  However, they all are sandboxes that give the player the freedom to move about.  Note that open-ended games can be of many genres.  Many sandbox games do end up as open-ended, and having its own page which has only a bit of information and a list of examples seems to be unneeded.
- "GTA Clone"s are definitely Sandbox games, but the line between what is a GTA clone and what is not is hard to maintain due to users adding irrelevant examples (eg "Saints Row" and "True Crime" are correct, but things like "Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4" are not.  Since GTA Clones are a specific subset of Sandbox games, this article, in particular some of Rockstar's response.
I propose that these pages be merged into this, and the article rewritten to highlight sub-genres with links to appropriate pages (these sub-genres include things like God game or strategy game), less focus on having just lists and lists of what games are sandbox (that's what categories are for) and more on giving a nice overall picture of open-ended games.
Please leave comments (and if you agree or disagree or something in between) below.  --Masem 12:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Proposal 

message: Age of Empires 3 is in no way a sandbox game. I removed it.
Tiger97882 02:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AOE III 

message: I find the game list too be way too long. This article pretty much throws around the label 'Sandbox' around quite liberally. By the definition here, any game that has a game world outside of the linear story seems to be be Sandbox. Silly.
It seems there are three types of games according to this; Default games (linear story, closed world), Linear-story games featuring sandbox elements, and Open-ended games.
I think the article would just be better with stricter criteria. Like, for example, I would say it should be defined as , "style where a large portion of the game is devoted to the world engine, and allowing the player(s) to experiment with the various elements, physics, construction, items, NPCs, maps, and etc." But, that would leave it to extremes and to the ones that just feature those elements.
That way, games that just feature side-quests like extra levels, races, mini-games, etc, wouldn't count, as it doesn't feature a testable world, but just a derailment for the main story. Things like Garry's Mod would be high up on the "scale" as the most sandbox, as it's completely dedicated to building and experimenting; whereas others, like The Sims, would be open-ended, but stay rather traditional.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.167.93 (talk) 10:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly. With the current definition, it just seems like most of all modern games fit into the category, as opposed to old school gaming. Final Fantasy also seems silly as an entry, since its straightforward, but only featuring maps an minigames..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.167.93 (talk) 13:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy Crap, that's a lot of games! 

message: The only corroboration of sandbox as a style of gameplay that I can find is common usage and pretty recent.
Sandbox has always been a mode of gameplay, a secondary mode of play in which the criteria for success are nonexistent or minimal, in contrast to the main mode of play e.g. campaign or concurrent quests, or storyline.
The idea of the sandbox as a game mode is that it is unhampered and open to experiment without affecting the main mode of play. A player can simply play with the game, testing its full capabilities and characteristics, without consequence to the game’s main premise of story or goals.
The online platform Second Life offers many creation tools ingame which can cost money, but has geographical territories accessible to all players called sandboxes for building to an extent that would otherwise be a relatively large commitment. As in a real sandbox, once may play without consequences. This is a perfect example of a sandbox.
A game may include a sandbox mode, editing mode, and multiplayer option in addition to it's main offering, only one of these is a sandbox mode.
However, it in the context of a gaming term- this may sound glib- we should go by usage. If gamers are going to use it as a synonym for 'large' or 'full of options' or 'non-linear' then thats how it should here be defined. 
So yes, most games listed here are sandbox games. And Morrowind, which has no areas inaccessible (as opposed to many listed here which do) certainly deserves to be on this list. You can also do quests in that game without being prompted to- that is, the quest can be discovered without prompting.
The blog link at the end of the page "Senzee 5 - Explorers and the Game of Tag — An analysis of sandbox-style game mechanics" should be removed. It's a blog entry by a gamer about what games they like.
Redrum Frank 22:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, maybe Sandbox is a useless term, anyway. The majority of games fall under that criteria; and what's the point of labeling everything with the same, broad category? Silly gamers. :P  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.167.93 (talk) 01:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: What good is is there in trying to find a definition for sand-box style -- I mean, an exact, precise and final term to describe such a thing? Are there books written about it? I don't think so. Do not take me wrong, I am not trying to depreciate the subject, I am just pointing out that it is a recent concept, not yet quite clearly defined. All the discussion here around it simply proves it. Perhaps we ought to state this in the article -- that it is a loose-term, that there is no formal definition, but rather a generally accepted idea of what is sand-box style gameplay. 201.67.30.233 19:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  define by usage 

message: At its core, Second Life is nothing but a big multiplayer sandbox. Would it possibly merit a mention in the article? Almost the same goes for Garry's Mod, but it's more restricted in that you can't make your own objects from scratch. --72.196.151.10 01:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Second Life? Garry's Mod?

message: This article seems a bit odd, in that a list of sandbox-style games has been removed, apparantly in favour of a list of GTA Clones. Whilst GTA Clones may well be a subset of Sandbox games, I'm not sure that devoting half the article to that list is justified. Should it be pruned?
Teut 19:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List of GTA Clones

message: I suggest renaming the article to Sandbox game. The article starts with "a sandbox-style video game". Might as well rename the article. GameSpot even has a special tag for these games . All the other genre articles have "game" or something like it at the end. SharkD (talk) 07:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's reasonable. --MASEM 14:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would be a good change. Teut (talk) 19:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested rename