Talk:Ronald Reagan/Archive 6

message: I completed a bit of work at the bottom of the article on footnotes, to provide an example of work still needed: 
#Remove empty parameters on cite templates; they clutter the text unnecessarily.
#Remove quotes from titles; they are wrongly used, and the cite templates insert quotes and italics automatically as needed.
#Some of the sources aren't reliable; I indicated a few
#Almost none of the publishers are identified; they need to be filled in.
#Some of the article titles are incorrect.
See WP:CITET or WP:CITE/ES.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok Thanks Sandy. You have actually really helped this article, for if the citations are in good shape, it will be a better candidate for FAC. I'm thankful. All of us Wikipedia Ronald Reagan editors should really start to get to work on the citations; it's going to ba a tough job, but I'm willing to go there! Happyme22 05:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was hoping someone would point out the biography thing. Biographies aren't generally reliable sources for historical information because they aren't really scrutinized by anyone other than the author and, maybe, the publisher. Works that receive scholarly peer reviews are sometimes assessed by dozens, or more, academics in the field related to the work. Sources like JSTOR, EBSCOhost, and other databases, as well as any decent University library, should have many journals and other peer reviewed works to choose from. IvoShandor 08:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Hey Sandy. I'm sorry sbout scewing up the citation templates. I did cut down a few sources from Reagan's autobiography, but the bulk of what the autobiography is used to cite are inline quotes, quoting Reagan on his thoughs, beliefs, and recollections pertaining to a specific subject. The Reagan autobiographical references are rarley used in the article to cite scientific facts. I own a copy of it, and in my free time, I'm filling in the reference tags. I'm on vacation right now, but when I get back to my house, I own copies of a bunch of books on Reagan, including President Reagan: The Triumph of Imagination, My Turn: The Memoirs of Nancy Reagan, and Ronald Reagan: The Presidential Portfolio, and I will start filling in the references. I know it's now become that article's main problem, and it's going to be a hard job to fix. --Happyme22 17:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if you would want some help here or not. I have a book by Michael Schaller, Oxford Univ Press (so it is peer reviewed) called Reckoning With Reagan, its pretty good and if there are any open citation needed templates I can search the book for them, if you were interested. : ) IvoShandor 06:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I only peek in periodically to see if refs need cleaning up; that would be most helpful, Ivo.  There is a lot of missing sourcing, and sourcing the article to bios isn't the best.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samples of work still needed on footnotes 

message: Hey, sorry, a newbie here! Just wanted to let someone who knows how to edit know that in the assassination attempt part, someone put "he was very smart" between sentences about a bullet and a joke. Probably needs to be removed. Thanks! 
---------------------- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.138.116.211 (talk) 01:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove stupid sentence, please! 

message: The passage dealing with the Strategic Defense Initiative needs some work. This complex and visionary system is summed up in one poorly written sentence:
The program would essentially send missiles into space which could intercept missiles being fired anywhere in or to America.
What about the space-based components? What is meant by "fired anywhere in or to America."? All a bit woolly.
A bigger problem pertains to the described lack of effect of the initiative on the Soviets. In fact, the SDI had rather a large effect on the Soviets despite the technology being decades away. From Professsor John Lewis Gaddis' book "The Cold War"
Reagan was deeply committed to SDI: it was not a bargaining chip to give up in future negotiations. That did not preclude, though, using it as a bluff: The United States was years, even decades, away from developing a missile defense capability, but Reagan's speech [when he first described such a capability] persuaded the increasingly frightened Soviet leaders that this was about to happen. They were convinced, Dobrynin [Soviet ambassador to US] recalled, "that the great technological potential of the United States had scored again and treated Reagan's statement as a real threat." Having exhausted their country by catching up in offensive missiles, they suddenly faced a new round of competition demanding skills they had no hope of mastering.
So, this section...
It is claimed by some of Reagan's more extreme supporters that Soviet leaders became genuinely concerned about SDI, and that it ended up playing a major role in ending the Cold War. There is no evidence to support this view. The Soviets knew as well as everyone else that SDI was an idea that was ahead of its time: the technology simply did not exist to implement such a scheme.
... is just plain wrong on the effect of the initiative on the Soviet leadership and completely misses the point about the technology being unavailable.
196.207.40.213 10:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your assessment. Could you please provide a page number citation for the above quote in Gaddis' book, and then we can start working with bits and pieces of the text to make the SDI statement true? I'll be glad to work with you. Happyme22 23:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that I look at the history page, the words "...There is no evidence to support this view. The Soviets knew as well as everyone else that SDI was an idea that was ahead of its time: the technology simply did not exist to implement such a scheme." WAS VANDALISM THAT WAS NOT REVERTED. It was a mistake, and I reverted it. Sorry if it caused any problems. Happyme22 23:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Gaddis quote is from page 227, Penguin books 2007. Thanks. 196.207.40.213 07:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. Fel free to add that quote, or bits and pieces of it, in the SDI paragraph Thanks Again, Happyme22 23:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SDI – it was significant 

message: Where did this %70 tax bracket numebr come from? I can;t imagine that ther was ever a time ahere anyone in this country had a %70 income tax.--Dr who1975 03:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  with the top personal tax bracket dropping from 70% to 28% in 7 years

message: Hi,
The source of the statement by Donald Regan that would appear to at least partially support the claim made by David Stockman is his memoir, viz: ‘For the Record: From Wall Street to Washington’ by Donald Regan
Published by Harcourt, 1988
ISBN-10: 0151639663 
ISBN-13: 978-0151639663 
The exact quote is:
“In the four years that I served as Secretary of the Treasury I never saw President Reagan alone and never discussed economic philosophy or fiscal and monetary policy with him one-on-one. From first day to last at Treasury, I was flying by the seat of my pants. The President never told me what he believed or what he wanted to accomplish in the field of economics”
If you intend to allow the allusion to Regan's statement to stand, it should perhaps be accompanied by a citation referencing the source. I am not yet sure of how to add citations.
I am disappointed that you thought that my edit concerning SDI constituted "vandalism". Wikipedia actively encourages people to contribute to articles. There is not the slightest suggestion that the originator of an article has proprietorial rights over it and is entitled to regard anyone expressing a different point of view as an intruder on their private territory. It is specifically stated in "About Wikipedia" that one of the advantages of having many people allowed to edit is that contentious viewpoints tend to end up being moderated toward a concensus that is more suitable for an encyclopedia. No offense, but I really do think that "vandalism" is not an appropriate description of people attempting to contribute to what is, after all, a public resource. Saying that I "missed the point" is one thing - all part of healthy debate: calling me a vandal, with that word's inherent implications of destructiveness and malice is another thing entirely.
Well, I guess I have ranted and raved long enough over one little word!
Regards, Flonto 21:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donald Regan 

message: Hi. Can someone please correct the citations on footnotes 53, 54, 63, 66, 67, and 150? All the info is in the text, but I'm not so sure I did it right. If someone could fix it, that would be great! Thanks, Happyme22 22:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: Needs to pick up more on some of Reagan's negative policies like anything he did with social and economic programs, and obviously a little more neutral than I stated. 164.111.195.232 15:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too nice 

message: Dear Happy,
I thought that it might be helpful if I gave you my suggestions as to how the Wikipedia article on Ronald Reagan might be altered in order to make it more appropriate for an encyclopedia. 
I have consulted the Wikipedia articles on a number of other controversial modern politicians; including Bill Clinton, Richard Nixon, Margaret Thatcher and both George Bushes. I have found all of those articles to be (in my opinion) admirably in keeping with the political neutrality required of an encyclopedia entry. In each case, the impartiality in style was such that I was not able to identify the writers of these entries as definite admirers of their subjects – which is the way that it ought to be in a resource such as Wikipedia. The article on Ronald Reagan, however, seems to me to occasionally display a lack of balance and even (slight) hagiographical tendencies. That is fine on a private website: but not on a public resource that aims to be reference work. An encyclopedia must always endeavor to present subjects in as strictly factual a manner as possible. It must be scrupolously neutral with regard to matters such as politics. Lack of said impartiality in Wikipedia is the business of any Wikipedia user.
I have a number of suggestions to offer as to where I feel that impartiality could be improved. There are about a dozen altogether, so to avoid monopolizing a large area of this page, I am going to send these for the consideration of yourself and anyone else who is concerned at a rate of one a week. I am hoping that you will find at least some of them helpful. In each case, I will quote the relevant passage from the text of the article and add my suggestions below in italics.
Below is item No. 1. This one is more about tone than substance. I am sure you would agree, however, that tone matters in an encyclopedia.  
“President Reagan's tenure marked a time of economic prosperity for most Americans in the United States. Tax rates were lowered significantly under Reagan, with the top personal tax bracket dropping from 70% to 28% in 7 years,[62] and GDP growth recovered strongly after the 1982 recession. Unemployment peaked at over 11 percent in 1982, then dropped steadily, plus inflation significantly decreased.[3] During Reagan's eight years in office, the economy grew at a robust annual rate of 3.8% per year.[3]”
Point of pedantry: The phrase,“most Americans in the United States” would read better as either, “most Americans” or, “most people in the United States”: unless your intention is to contrast Americans in the United States with American expatriates living elsewhere in the World.
Point of impartiality: Even better would be “the majority of Americans”, because this phrase seems to be less dismissive of the situation of that minority of Americans who did not enjoy economic prosperity.
:These are great! Please either list all of your suggestions here, or you can post them on my talkpage, but I look forward to seeing what you have to say. Also, remember to sign your messages with four tildes. Happyme22 14:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions for improving impartiality 

message: Although I love how we Wikipedia editors were able to come to a concensus on the Lead in this article, I think we could add one more detail: Nancy Reagan. The Reagan's were often described as the closest President and First Lady ever, called "inseperable," and both described not wanting to live without the other. I think it deserves mention in the lead for those reasons, and according to WP:LEAD, every section in the article should try to be mentioned somehow, and "Marriage and children" (especially marriage) was a big part of Reagan's life. All we need to do is add another sentence in the lead, saying maybe: ".....Reagan was born and raised in Illinois and moved to California in the 1930s where he met his wife, Nancy." 
Wat do you guys think? Happyme22 04:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reagan Lead 

message: All those citations of Matlock require a complete reference somewhere. The citations need to be complete, too (that is, no "p. ?", for example). I will also be requesting an opinion about his adequacy as a source. John FitzGerald 20:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm working on it John, and if I fine the info in another book, I use that one. Happyme22 00:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matlock 

message: Here's a great site on public opinion poll numbers during the Reagan Years: . Maybe we can start incorporating some of these polls into the article? Happyme22 00:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public Opinion Polls 

message: OK Happy, you asked for it - now you're gonna git it.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Critics from the left charged that Reagan was unconcerned with income inequality and its effects, abandoning the egalitarian ideals that had come to be standard stated policy goals since the New Deal era.[65]They also stated that the combination of significant tax cuts nd a massive increase in Cold War related defense expenditure caused large budget deficits, [66] and the U.S. trade deficit expanded.[66]”
The expression “the left”, especially  when it is applied to anyone who votes Democrat, has a pejorative ring to it.  “Critics charged that…” would read as more neutral. 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Reagan's efforts to cut welfare and income taxes became common flash points for both critics and supporters. Opponents charged that this primarily benefited the wealthy in America, deriding these policies as "Trickle-down economics".[66] Reagan's former director of the Office of Management and Budget,” 
Point of pedantry: The expression, “flash points” should either be hyphenated, viz. “flash-points” or rendered as one word, viz. “flashpoints”. 
Point of impartiality: In any economic change, there are winners and there are losers. Some people on welfare suffered a degree of hardship as a result of the Reagan Administration’s cuts to their entitlements. A mere reference to this fact would avoid even the possibility of the reader thinking that this article ignores the plight – or even the existence - of the disadvantaged. But how to work such a reference into the text is a question on its own. Wikipedia articles need to be fairly short and this one has a long story to tell. It is not the place for a detailed examination of the effects of enonomic policies on every social grouping in America. There lies the problem. 
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“David Stockman, stated that Reagan was deliberately left "out of the loop" by cabinet members, when the true economic decisions were made. He believed that Reagan did not know where he stood on economic policy and said he was forced to coach him prior to speeches and press conferences on what to say.[67] He later characterized the Reagan administration as giving "the greatest free lunch fiscal policy" to Americans through his economic policies.[67] Stockman was fired by Reagan after a disagreement (unrelated to Stockman's claims), and many have speculated that this may have been his way of exacting revenge against the President. Stockman's claims are widely considered to be untrue. [68] 
There is a statement by Donald Regan that would appear to at least partially support the claim made by David Stockman. If the article is going to mention ulterior motives on Stockman’s part and stress that he is widely disbelieved, then I think it only fair for the article also to mention that there is other evidence that corrobotates him, even if only to a limited extent. Regan’s statement appears is his memoir,  ‘For the Record: From Wall Street to Washington’ by Donald Regan (Harcourt, 1988 ISBN-10: 0151639663 ISBN-13: 978-0151639663):
“In the four years that I served as Secretary of the Treasury I never saw President Reagan alone and never discussed economic philosophy or fiscal and monetary policy with him one-on-one. From first day to last at Treasury, I was flying by the seat of my pants. The President never told me what he believed or what he wanted to accomplish in the field of economics”
This book expresses a view of Ronald Reagan that is generally favorable and his claim about Reagan’s lack of involvement with economic matters is much less extreme than Stockman’s. For both of those reasons, I think that Donald Reagan’s critique carries much more weight than Stockman’s and might easily take its place in the article. 
 
It is easy to forget that no president can ever take personal charge of overseeing every single aspect of the running of the country. Because “the buck stops” with the president, we tend to say that “F.D.R. did such-and-such” whether he was the orginator of the policy or not. Perhaps one of Reagan’s greatest strengths was that he knew how to delegate. Political history offers examples of leaders who have appointed highly-qualified people to supervise their economy and then ruined everything by insisting on sitting at their appointee’s shoulder and interfering with their work.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Looking at Reaganomics from a beneficial point of view, many scholars agree that overall Reagan's tax policies and emphasis on deregulation invigorated America's economy.[71] According to the Cato Institute, the American Economy performed better during the Reagan years, than during the pre- and post- Reagan years,[3] and at the end of his administration, the United States was enjoying its longest recorded period of peacetime prosperity without recession or depression".[72] 
It is surely an indisputable fact that during the administration of Reagan's successor, George H. W. Bush, America experienced a considerable economic recession. It has been widely argued that this recession was at least in part the result of the budget decificit built up in the Reagan years. To acknowledge the building up of the fiscal deficit but to fail to mention the role that it may have played in later economic downturn is telling only part of the story. Leaving out important information can be as much an expression of POV as including contentious assertions. I think that the possible role played by the deficit accrued by the Reagan Administration in the economic recession under G.H.W. Bush needs to be mentioned, as long as it made clear that it was one of the possible causes of the recession, and not definitely the whole cause as has sometimes been asserted   
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Many critics also charged that the policies did little to actually reduce the availability of drugs or crime on the street, while resulting in a great financial and human cost for American society.[78] Due to this policy, some critics regarded Reagan as indifferent to the needs of poor and minority citizens. Nevertheless, surveys showed that illegal drug use among Americans declined significantly during Reagan's presidency, leading supporters to argue that the policies were successful.[79][73]”
The statement, “surveys show that illegal drug use among Americans declined” seems to assert that the ‘War on Drugs’ was successful, because it implies that all of the available evidence points to this conclusion. Is this your claim? My understanding is that there is also statistical evidence that disagrees with such a conclusion. This passage could avoid being contentious by being changed to, “some surveys show…”, or “many surveys show…”. That would then leave Wikipedia readers to make up their own minds. 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Critics objected to his comparison of the Contras, who were responsible for murdering large numbers of women and children, to the Founding Fathers and to the French Resistance, which suggests that he viewed the Sandinistas as Communists who were akin to an occupying power”. 
The statement that the Contras “were responsible for murdering large numbers of women and children” is, of course, an edit that I made without first discussing it or even leaving an ‘edit summary’. I was but an ignorant young fellow in those days! If you have intentionally allowed this edit to stand, then I must congratulate you on your fair-mindedness. Many would argue that, in the fight against World communism, we had to reluctantly ally ourselves with people who were anti-communist but who were not necessarily pro-freedom. In exactly the same way, we had to ally ourselves with Stalin’s Russia in order to defeat Hitler’s Germany. But the murder of innocent people can never be excused or overlooked. This is why so many people – by no means all of them liberals -  were shocked and disappointed by Reagan’s unqualified hymn of praise for the Contras. I mentioned the murder of women and children because I think it would be quite wrong to ignore such atrocities and treat the whole Contra business as a purely political matter.
However, I am not satisfied with what I wrote. The “large numbers” part of the phrase seems not only superfluous, but seemingly suggestive of the notion that killing innocent people is only wrong if it is done in large numbers. Perhaps “responsible for killing women and children” would make the same point more succintly.   
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“One of Reagan's more controversial proposals was the Strategic Defense Initiative, or SDI, a defense project.[108] The program would essentially send missiles into space which could intercept missiles being fired anywhere in or to America.[109] Reagan believed this defense shield could make nuclear war impossible,[110] but the unlikelihood that the technology could ever work led opponents to dub SDI "Star Wars," and argue that the technological objective was unattainable.[110] Indeed, Soviet leaders became genuinely concerned about SDI, and it ended up playing a major role in ending the Cold War.”
Here is an example of an  incorrect assumption on my part. I took it for granted that because SDI was technologically unachievable, the Soviets could have taken it no more seriously than most people in the West did. The statement of Comrade Dobrynin would appear to contradict that. That puts me in the wrong and only a fool never admits to being wrong. Nevertheless, a direct reference in the text (not merely via footnote) to Comrade Dobrynin’s actual testimony would give substance to what otherwise looks at first glance like an optimistic claim. Reporting what Dobrynin stated would not only be more persuasive but more neutral - presenting a fact and leaving the reader the liberty of making up his/her own mind about its significance.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Reagan's militant rhetoric inspired dissidents in the Soviet Union, but also startled allies and alarmed critics.[citation needed]"
Citation is indeed needed. We need to know who these “dissidents in the Soviet Union” were and exactly how were they “inspired” by Reagan’s militant pronouncements. The statement needs to be supported by hard evidence. We need to be referred to actual testimony, either from identified dissidents or from people who are able to authoritatively report on the reaction of such dissidents to speeches made by Ronald Reagan. Otherwise, it tends to look as if extravagant claims are being made on behalf of his rhetoric. 
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Left-wing critics denounced his opposition to Fidel Castro's government in Cuba and complained that he was ignoring human rights in Central America, South America, and South Africa.[112][verification needed]”
Critcism of his opposition to Castro’s regime may have been been confined to “left-wing critics”: but I do not think that it is correct to categorize everyone who expressed concern about human rights in Central America, South America and South Africa as “left-wing”. The idea that only “left-wing” people care about human rights abuses that are committed by right-wing regimes is utterly fallacious. There were plenty of Republican voters who strongly disliked both the racism in South Africa and the brutality of regimes like Guatemala and El Salvador. 
Also, I think that putting criticism of the Reagan Administration’s policies toward South Africa in the ‘same basket’ as criticism of their policies toward  Latin America fails to distinguish between two very different sets of criticism.
Critics of U.S. Government policy toward Latin America objected to the military aid that was given to tyrannical regimes, which those regimes sometimes then used to harm innocent people. These critics surely had a rational case for their charge of ‘inoring human rights’. 
However, to make the same accusation against U.S. Government policy toward South Africa lacks a basis in logic. The U.S. Government did not give military aid to South Africa, and there was a very real limit to the amount of influence that Reagan could have exercised with regard to the South African Government, who were notorious for refusing to listen to anyone. My understanding of U.S. policy toward South Africa during the 1980s was that an effort was made to try to diplomatically encourage reform and racial equality. It was not so much a case of human rights in South Africa being ignored by the U. S. Government – it was more a question of the U.S. Government’s advice being ignored by the South African Government. 
I think, therefore, that we need to distinguish between the three sets of critcism.
A possible alternative version could be: 
“Left-wingers denounced his opposition to Fidel Castro’s government in Cuba. Other critics expressed concern that he was ignoring human rights in Central America and making insufficient diplomatic effort in pursuit of racial equality in South Africa”.    
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“Many U.S.-Soviet experts and administration officials doubted that Gorbachev was serious about winding down the arms race,[115] but Ronald Reagan recognized the real change in the direction of the Soviet leadership, and Reagan shifted to skillful diplomacy, using his sincerity and charm to personally push Gorbachev further with his reforms.[116]” 
The phrase, “skilfull diplomacy” makes a subjective value judgement as to the quality of Reagan’s diplomacy. “Using his sincerity and charm” asserts that Reagan was both sincere and charming – value judgements again. And, “push Gorbachev to further reforms” implies that Gorbachev was successfully “pushed” – manipulated - by the force of Reagan’s will: which is controversial and which could even be interpreted as demeaning toward Mikhail Gorbachev, whom many people consider to be a great man in his own right.
“Reagan shifted to diplomacy and charm with a view to encouraging Gorbachev to go further in his reforms” would say essentially the same thing, but  without introducing any subjective judgements and without appearing to tell the reader what conclusion he/she is expected to come to. 
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“Gorbachev agreed to meet Reagan in four summit conferences around the world: the first, in Geneva, Switzerland, the second in Reykjavík, Iceland, the third, held in Washington, D.C., along with the fourth summit, in Moscow, Russia.[117] Reagan believed that if he could persuade the Soviets to look at the prosperous American economy, they would embrace free markets and a free society. Gorbachev, facing severe economic problems at home, was swayed.[118]”
It is not clear from this statement  what Reagan is supposed to have said that “swayed” Gorbachev. Is the reader to understand that Gorbachev did not know about the prosperity of the West relative to the Soviet Bloc until Reagan pointed it out to him? Of course, Reagan may have excelled himself in silver-tongued eloquence; he may have argued his case with outstanding skill and conviction: but  when his arguments are (necessarily given the limits imposed by the format of Wikipedia) reduced to a one-sentence summary, it gives the impression that  Reagan did nothing more than point out the blindingly obvious.  I see that Lou Cannon’s book is cited as the source for the claim that Gorbachev was “swayed”: but the Wikipedia reader is unable to see from that reference the nature or the quality of Cannon’s evidence for drawing such a conclusion. To those unfamiliar the evidence with which Cannon supports his conclusion, the statement that Gorbachev was “swayed” by Reagan looks like an argumentative claim. To carry conviction, I think that Cannon’s evidence – not his mere assertion - that Gorbachev was “swayed” by arguments put to him by Reagan needs to be given in the actual text of the article. Without that, it risks being viewed by readers as unsubstantiated hype. 
 
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“Speaking at the Berlin Wall, on June 12, 1987, Reagan pushed Gorbachev even further:
“General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!” [119]
The phrase, “pushed Gorbachev even further” once again gives the impression of Reagan controlling Gorbachev like a puppet on a string. Is there any evidence that this particular speech “pushed” Gorbachev in any way? It is a matter of historical record that the gate in question was not opened, and the wall in question not torn down, until half a decade after this speech was delivered. Unless verification can be provided of Gorbachev initiating at least one specific anti-Cold War or pro-liberalization policy in direct response to this specific speech, the phrase, “Reagan pushed Gorbachev” cannot be warranted. In that case, it would be more appropriate to use  something along the lines of, “ Reagan challenged Gorbachev to go further in his reforms”.  That way, we avoid giving the appearance of making argumentative claims for the influence of the Berlin Wall speech. 
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And I’m done! (Thank heavens for that!, you say).
Regards,  Flonto 22:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WOW Flonto! This has been really a big help, and you can see that I have already implemented a great number of your suggesions, and will continue to do so. If you have any scholarly sources on Reagan, those would be very beneficial to us, and you can help us out by citing claims. Thanks, Happyme22 05:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Endless Catalog of Criticism 

message: Another important point here is that a number of the citations for the gushing claims made in this article come from seriously biased sources, such as op-eds (no matter where they're published, by definition, they're opinion) and conservative think-tanks such as CATO. If we're going to agree that claims should be sourced - so that they are not simply opinion - then we should agree that they should come from non-partisan sources, or at least those published under the rules of journalism or history, and not opinion or political advocacy. At least we can agree that claims made in wiki articles ought not be "bolstered" by articles written by Reagan Administration officials (such as Martin Anderson), who have obvious conflicts of interest.Info999 03:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much for your concerns of which I too share (yes, I do share those concerns), and I am currently working on fixing them, along with some other people. You can help out also, if you wish. Happyme22 06:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Before we get another you're-damaging-the-legacy-of-my-hero diatribe, this is a matter of fact, not a political disagreement. It was a goal of the Reagan economic policies to attempt to, among other things, reduce inflation. Actually reducing inflation cannot be a policy - no more than reducing crime, reducing drug use, reducing homelessness, reducing violence, reducing teen pregnancy, reducing the number of abortions, reducing federal deficits, or reducing the national debt can be policies (coincidentally - or perhaps not :) - none of these ills were reduced during the Reagan administration). They can be goals, attempted through changes in policy. If a goal is to increase the savings rate, there are several policies that can be adopted in order to influence the savings rate (changes in monetary policy is one example); however, "increasing the savings rate" cannot be a policy.  If reducing inflation was simply a matter of stating it as a policy, all presidents would simply state it as policy, and then inflation would be reduced. Ditto for countless other ills. This is, of course, ridiculous. Info999 05:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reductions in inflation during the Reagan years were significant. It should go somewhere in the lead along with the rest of the economy sentence. Happyme22 06:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you only look narrowly at the years 1980 to 1983, inflation rates did decrease dramatically (from 13.58% in 1980 to 3.22% in 1983). However, the inflation rates of '74-'75 and '78-'81  were historical abberations, over two times the inflation rate of most years between 1947 and 1978 (heck, even between 1947 and 2006). If you look at the inflation rate between 1947 and 2006 (with some exceptions, including 1948, 1951 and the '70s mentioned above), no year saw an inflation rate higher than 6%, and most years during that period it was significantly less. In fact, the inflation rate during the Reagan years was actually a bit higher than average post-WWII, not counting those exceptions already noted. In other words, one explanation was that inflation returned to just above its post-war historical average after 1980, following the political and economic upheavals and missteps of the 1970s. The inflation rate didn't even go to any record lows during the Reagan administration, which might have been something to note. And this doesn't even get into the question of linking any particular policy or policies of the Reagan administration as the actual cause of the return to the historical average that occurred during the Reagan years. My point is that this is a lot more complicated than the pundits would have you believe, and from the sources you've been citing, the pundits are those who are interested only in burnishing the Reagan legacy, which doesn't belong on wiki. I don't agree that it should be included in the lead; if at all, the fact of the return to the average might belong in the body. Info999 07:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, I'm not out to promote and glorify the Reagan Legacy, although I do like Reagan, (there is a difference) but even as you yourself stated in the above paragraph, "inflation rates did decrease dramatically (from 13.58% in 1980 to 3.22% in 1983)" means that the phrase "reductions in inflation" is correct, because comparing it to the late '70s and the Carter years, inflation went down. Now maybe, as you said above, it is more complicated than that. Maybe we could say "reductions in inflation from an ecomic recession" somehow. What do you think? Happyme22 16:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I meant was that it was much more significant that inflation increased during Nixon/Ford/Carter than it was that inflation returned to its historical average during Reagan. And look at when the decreases occurred: from 1980 to 1981 and huge drop - not at all attributable to Reagan, since he only took office in January of 1981, and from 1981 to 1982 - barely attributable to Reagan, since his budgets and policies had had no time to have any appreciable effect. Granted, the drop from 1982 to 1983 was about 50%, and occurred after Reagan's policies had had time to have an effect; this assumes, however, that they were in fact responsible for the decrease in inflation. I think the best that you can say is that the rates of inflation that were extraordinarily high during the 1970s returned to their historical post-WWII average during the time Reagan was in office. Everything else - including, in my opinion, making it part of the lead - is POV.Info999 22:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Policies vs Goals/Results

message: Does anyone think that the lead should be shortened? I mean all the info in it is great, but it's a little long..... --Happyme22 18:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: Given that the Reagans were reportedly scheduling White House events by "favorable" astrological signs throughout the 1980s, the Reagan Wikiarticle needs to address this Reagan pre-occupation with star worshipping.
Also, is there any verifiable self-statement of Ronald Reagan's religious faith to support the non-NPOV statement by previous that Reagan was indeed a "Christian"?  I think that is relatively safe to assume that Ronald Reagan may have actually ventured into a few stables during his long lifetime and career as a western cowboy/army cavalryofficer, but that does not necessarily make Ronald Reagan out to be a "horse"...4.88.55.227 16:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide a citation for your claims? Ronald Reagan had nothing to do with astrology during his presidecy; Nancy Reagan, the First Lady did. She consulted her astrologer, not the president, and it's mentioned throughly in her article. And why are we questioning the fact that Ronald Reagan was a Christian? He went to Bel-Air Presbyeterian Church--what else would he be? Happyme22 14:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about Time Magazine, quoting insider's insider Donald Regan? http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,967389,00.html  More importantly, here is another example of The Keeper of the Reagan Flame zealously inserting all manner of praise for Reagan (no matter how thin and biased the "source") and scrupulously elminating the slightest hint of negativity. If we must source something as proven and well-known as the Reagan's (both of them) reliance on astrology to dictate the President's schedule, why shouldn't you have to source the quality of his religious adherence? I don't think anyone is questioning whether or not Reagan attended church services; I think the user was looking for facts to establish how well-defined his supposed religious adherence was. This is something that conservatives question liberals on all the time, but when someone asks an innocent, neutral question, look at the response they receive!Info999 00:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: * As it was reported often as how he took a break for an afternoon prayer, and with all the Christian rhetoric he used, I'm baffled anyone would doubt this! He had an intensely personal faith, and dozens of people have attested to it. He didn't stick it out their as much as Bush II has, but he certainly had it in loads. I can even remember Tip O'Neil commenting on it. // FrankB 10:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Religious beliefs: Astrology

message: Last two updates by user Kmart56258 are vandalism, with references to Ronald Reagan being the devil.
Tseeba 19:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is semiprotected; any username more than a few days old can edit it. There is no need for administrator assistance to edit this page. CMummert · talk 00:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Protection 

message: This is article is sorely lacking a section discussing Reagan's political philosophy. Compare to the Thomas Jefferson article which as a "Political philosophy" section. What he did is important but so is his philosophy. He was pretty well-read in classical liberal economics and philosophy. The freedom philosophy was what was driving him. After school special 20:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs Political Philosophy section

message: re: #Legacy
;for the record, the disputed "phrase" of this section is bolded below. :Maybe some of you regular contributors to this article can help Konstable out:
...
Reagan's supporters, and even many who are not, believe that much of America's success today can be attributed to Ronald Reagan, including a more efficient and more prosperous economy, r e f name="Cato Institute"/><r e f> /r e f> a peaceful end to the Cold War, a world safer from the threat of nuclear war, hastening the collapse of the Soviet Union, and a ...
Sequence: I'd added 5-6 pics and was fighting the Wikimarkup HTML's rendering viewing in four browsers, and balancing all that with zoom in and out. He made the edit deleting the phrase, which was IIRC flagged by a  w/o and date. So I put it back as it read well, and per the below. So now he's throwing this snit, despite lacking justification in my opinion  of a good reason to delete same. (Fact tags without a day date are fairly poor vehicles. They need to be sequentially numbered and initialed and so forth so all can discuss them clearly. In any event. Good luck with him... he seems to have some pov contrary to My Life's experience! // FrankB 10:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, I have no interest in getting into arguments over what happened, that could go on forever and would produce no results. But Wikipedia has a very nice policy Verifiability not truth and let's just stick to that. I removed the unverified statement, and I have no opposition to anyone re-inserting it as long as it is properly attributed - and one guy saying that Reagan hastened the collapse of communism is most definitely not enough attribution.--Konstable 09:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Me neither. I've never cared for the lack of due process in lots of things around here. As you can see from what was ready above, (I had to fix a template, made another answer, etc.) taking out such a widely held view without due process is what disturbs me. You didn't cite a section on this talk for example which had a consensus for that removal. So if you want to lawyer, think on that. One could even say you're "Zeal" to remove such conventional views is borderline WP:POINT (more dispicable lawyering). Still, RRR's legacy is safe from what you and those like you can do. I've no doubt whatever he'll be discussed for centuries--for the phrase you disagree with. Sigh. // FrankB 10:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed phrase again 

message: This article is way too long. It's over 110KB, which is something like 3.5 times longer than the recommended size. What's more, with the templates, it's even worse - it took forever to load on my 300Mhz computer (built circa 1858). This is mostly a problem, though, because it takes a long time to read - an encyclopedia article is meant to be short and precise - any extra materials should be put into subarticles. The Evil Spartan 22:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to get so involved in this discussion, but Gerald Ford, a Featured Article (FA), is 102 KB, and Featured Artciles are considered to be Wikipedia's best. Now, I agree, Reagan's should be condensed, and the sections I am working on are "The Cold War" and "'Reaganomics' and the economy". I do not think that the article should be drastically cut, however, because, although it's long, it's very factual, and facts are what encyclopedia's are all about. Just thought I'd add that..... --Happyme22 01:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reagan's article is now down to 107 KB, which is still high, but I'm cutting less important facts. Happyme22 23:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's now down to 105 KB, only two higher than that of Gerald Ford's, a FA. Happyme22 05:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact remains that all these articles are too long for all the said reasons above. While I realize this is an encyclopedia, it's probably best to put a lot of the facts into subarticles, as encyclopedias are meant to a) give information, and b) provide it precisely enough in a good summary. If we wish to have a ton of information, we can always go into the subarticle or check out a book on the man. I hope this isn't too unclear; but when I try to read information on this guy, my eyes are glazing over, as I can't find a thing. Hope I'm not being too rude. The Evil Spartan 18:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too long 

message: Reagan was from Dixon, which isn't close to Chicago, how is the article in the scope of WP Chicago? That tag doesn't belong here. IvoShandor 20:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completly, and wonder why that tag was even placed here. Can anyone remove it, or does it have to be a member of Wiki Chicago? Happyme22 23:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone can remove it if the consensus here is it should be removed, Reagan's connection to Chicago is fleeting at best, worked there some (millions upon millions of people have) and his family lived there briefly when he was young I believe. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? IvoShandor 06:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like it was added by a bot, probably by mistake as it was adding to categories, I am just going to remove it. IvoShandor 06:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, please do so. Happyme22 14:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Meaning I got a message from one of their users which said, I added the tag back see edit summary, I apparently don't garner enough respect to be told directly why it was added back. IvoShandor 13:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I just noticed the "Low" importance of Reagan to the project, completely misleading to anyone who just happens upon the page knowing little or nothing about Reagan and/or WikiProjects. Obviously Reagan was one of the most important figures of the late 20th Century, how this garners a low importance by any definition is beyond me. IvoShandor 13:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am said user. The following link will help explain the  low importance tag: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chicago/Priority_Scale.  Low and mid importance do not mean the article is low importance.  Michael Jordan has a low importance tag from the Baseball WP.  Barack Obama has a mid importance tag from the Hawaii WP. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: P.S. keep in mind project banner tags are for editors not readers.  In particular they are for project members. The people who they are intended for are not confused. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: My assessment that you were rude was premature, for that I apologize, however I would note that the large majority of Wikipedia users are readers only and that regardless of the fact that editors are not confused readers do, and are often encouraged, to address issues on the talk page, the tag could very well be very confusing to readers. Regardless I don't agree that it belongs here but I won't remove it anymore. People can discuss it here if they'd like I am not vested either way so whatever happens happens, I really only watch this page for vandals because of its importance as a historical topic. IvoShandor 17:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My method is to assume readers read the article and more serious users and editors venture to the talk page.  Admittedly, even really experienced editors who have not been involved in page assessments are confused on the meaning of priority scale ratings.  Furthermore, there is always debate on what is significant enough to be low importance.  For example, right now Muhammad Ali has a lot of info about statements in Chicago newspapers.  This is not sufficient for me to tag his article.  However, I have heard that has owned property in Kenwood District.  If I can also confirm he once lived here, it might raise his significance to WP:WPChi because persons interested in Historic District properties would have a special Chicago interest in him. I appreciate your consideration in our efforts to tag even low importance articles to our project. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Chicago

message: "Indeed, Soviet leaders became genuinely concerned about SDI, and it ended up playing a major role in ending the Cold War."
This is a POV stated as fact.  The source for this is an op-ed.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5147745/site/newsweek/
Some other views on this topic from scholars:
http://www.armscontrol.ru/START/publications/uhler1.htm
http://www.csis.org/ruseura/commentary/
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040628/schell
The sentence should be rephrased to something like:
"Proponents of SDI believe it played a major role in ending the Cold War."
Gmb92 05:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strategic Defense Initiative 

message: It is my understanding that Reagan also embarked on one of, if not THE Largest investments in public infrastructure. Some economists believe that the  massive public spending was  a major cause of the era's rapid economic growth, perhaps eclipsing the effect of the tax cuts. Subject to verification and citations, mention of the infrastructure investment should be added along with it's importance as competing  explanation for the era's growth. While questioning the popular belief in tax cuts as a critical and major economic stimulus may seem akin to heresy, there is plenty of research and argument about the true role of tax policy in the economy.  I also find the absence of any reference to the (discredited  by some)Laffer Curve to be a great embarrassment. The Laffer Curve was an important part of the PR campaign for his policies. Surely Reagan's seminal importance to the renaissance of conservative politics and his accomplishments do not evaporate under a more nuanced examination of history.Topremodeler 06:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, well do you have a citation to back up your claims? Happyme22 14:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  public infrastructure investment: a hidden part of Reaganomics 

message: "Reagan fired 11,359 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored his order to return to work, one of the biggest setbacks to the power of organized labor in many years."
Anyone else agree?
:I removed it. It appears that it was added by a new user not familiar with some of Wikipedia's policies. Happyme22 00:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This doesn't look very impartial

message: I still have MANY problems with the beginning of this article, particularly with this statement.  "...bolstering anti-Communist movements worldwide."  Like what???!!!???  I remember death squads in El Salvador and Guatamala.  BUT I guess that only the winners write history.  Wonder what will be said about the current administration and president, will everyone be gushing over him too?  This article's one-sided, pro Reagan stance factual articles are meant to be objective, I guess WIKI rules don't apply for this article.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Evan1980 (talk • contribs).
:Could you please calm down a little, it is hard to discuss with someone who is putting many question marks and uses capitals. I have removed some of your statements that violated our civility policy. Please point out more specific problems in a calmer way.--Konstable 12:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro problems 

message: The second paragraph of the 'End of the Cold War' section has the following sentence:
“Many U.S.-Soviet experts and administration officials doubted that Gorbachev was serious about winding down the arms race,[115] but Ronald Reagan recognized the real change in the direction of the Soviet leadership, and Reagan shifted to skillful diplomacy, using his sincerity and charm to personally push Gorbachev further with his reforms.[116]”
The phrase, “skilfull diplomacy” is POV in that it makes a subjective value judgement as to the quality of Reagan’s diplomacy. “Using his sincerity and charm” asserts that Reagan was both sincere and charming – value judgements again. And, “push Gorbachev to further reforms” implies that Gorbachev was successfully “pushed” – manipulated - by the force of Reagan’s will: which is controversial and which could even be interpreted as demeaning toward Mikhail Gorbachev, whom many people consider to be a great man in his own right.
I think that the following alteration would say essentially the same thing, but without introducing any subjective judgements and without appearing to tell the reader to what conclusion he/she is expected to come:
“Many U.S.-Soviet experts and administration officials doubted that Gorbachev was serious about winding down the arms race,[115] but Ronald Reagan recognized the real change in the direction of the Soviet leadership, and he shifted to diplomacy and charm with a view to encouraging Gorbachev to go further in his reforms.[116]”
I therefore propose to make this alteration. Can users please register any support for or objection to such a change?
Regards, 
Flonto 21:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fine, but I would change "with a view to encouraging" to "with a goal" OR "with a view to encourage." Happyme22 01:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "charm" is pretty subjective as well as suspect.  I'd leave it as "diplomacy". Gmb92 04:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made the change, leaving "charm" out also.--Konstable 12:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for an alteration 

message: I've often read that Reagan forced tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of mental patients out of hospital (those who were considered "unthreatening"). Is this true, and shouldn't this be covered in the article? Even if it may be exaggerated, it certainly crops up a lot. MadMaxDog 01:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well do you have a citation for it? Happyme22 18:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mental hospitals

message: I have written a chapter-by-chapter  summary of the TV miniseries The Reagans which contrary to what some might think, actually paints RR and NR both in a very favorable light (although it doesn't do so for conservatism or the Republican party). Lycurgus 08:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Reagans