Talk:Anton Schindler

message: What is the source for the information about Brenda Schindler? She is not mentioned in the cited sources.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rimpim (talk • contribs) 14:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I see no reason for this to be "Anton Felix Schindler", rather than just "Anton Schindler".  The latter is how he's always known in the Anglosphere.  There's no other Anton Schindler on WP, so there's no need to disambiguate.  And even if there were such a need, using the middle name would not be the way to do it.  Can an admin please move this.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've posted this @ Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial requests. --  JackofOz (talk) 22:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Move page

message: Many of Beethoven's associates have never been put into context, which has hampered understanding of Beethoven himself.
After Beethoven died (March, 1827), Schindler repeatedly asked Ries if he would collaborate on a joint biography.  Ries would supply the early years, Schindler the later ones.  Ries declined.  (Extrapolated from Eva Badura-Skoda's Introduction to the 1987 English translation of the Biographical Notes of Wegeler & Ries.  Published by Great Ocean Publishers.)
At some point in the late 1820's, Ries moved to Frankfurt.  As Schindler was living in Vienna as of 1827 but later moved to Frankfurt, it needs to be established if Schindler moved to Frankfurt because of Ries, or not.  There is a reason.
Schindler's destruction of the Conversation books, as well as his probable destruction of selected letters (by both Ries and Beethoven) was, at least in part, likely to have been in an effort to persuade Ries to collaborate with him.  This was because the relationship between Ferdinand Ries and Ludwig van Beethoven deteriorated sharply in the last years of Beethoven's life and was the real reason for Ries' refusal to collaborate.  Schindler saw the feud first-hand, but his destruction of key records has obscured this.  This can be deduced from the following:
In his Biographical Notes of Ludwig van Beethoven of 1838, Ries concludes his section with a series of letters from Beethoven.  These were carefully selected, the reasons have to do with Beethoven's 30th, 31st and 32nd piano sonatas, as well as the Diabelli variations.  For mysterious reasons, Beethoven himself did not provide dedications to certain of these.  (Dedications were subsequently provided by the publisher.)
The last of Beethoven's letters in Ries' book, dated 9 April 1825, concerned the newly finished 9th Symphony.  Beethoven had sent Ries a copy of the score as Ries had arranged a concert for May.  In the letter Beethoven gives a correction to the Scherzo.  (I am not a musician, but I cannot find that part of the score.)  Whereupon Ries concludes his book.
Ries presumes the reader knows what happened next.  Turn to page 390 in George Grove's Beethoven and his Nine Symphonies (Dover edition): "The second [performance of the 9th outside Austria] was at the Lower Rhine Festival of May 23 of the same year, at Aix-la-Chapelle.  The performance was conducted by Beethoven's pupil, F. Ries, but it cannot be called satisfactory, inasmuch as the whole of the second movement and part of the Adagio were omitted."
(Elsewhere in Ries' Biographical Notes he relates how Beethoven reacted when the original Andante movement of what became the Waldstein sonata was parodied in front of Beethoven by one of Ries' friends.  Beethoven dropped the movement from the sonata (it was later published as the Andante Favori), recomposed the movement anew, and thereafter refused to play in Ries' presence.  Beethoven was touchy about his works, as Ries well knew.)
News of Ries' mutilation of the 9th would have reached Beethoven within days.  He immediately set about writing what became his 13th String Quartet, in 6 movements.  The 5th movement, the Cavatina, he said made him weep.  It was followed by the Grosse Fuge, the opening of which sounds exactly like a stab in the back.
It was followed by the 15th String Quartet.  The first movement ends with an unmistakable "sawing" in the first violin - as if Beethoven wanted to saw someone's head off.  The third movement is the famous Thanksgiving after an illness.  It was an illness brought about by Beethoven's intense rage.  (You think not?  The Grosse Fuge and the first movement of the 15th have a lot of anger in them.)  The quartet ends with the material that Beethoven had prepared for the finale of the 9th, where it would have resolved the conflict of the first movement.  Here it resolves the conflict in the first movement of the quartet.
Which was followed by the 14th string quartet, which opens with the saddest "farewell" in all music, before, finally, Beethoven moved on to happier themes.  Did Ries' betrayal turn up in the last movement of the 16th string quartet ("Must it be?") - ?  I really don't know.  
Which is a long story, but it has a point.  It would appear that by 1825 Ries was as angry at Beethoven as Beethoven was with Ries.  Careful scholarship will uncover further clues in Ries' Biographical Notes, but my further notes would be purely speculative. The two men remained unreconciled at the time of Beethoven's death in 1827.  
When Beethoven died, Schindler was lost.  He wanted to profit from Beethoven in some way, but had little to offer.  He hoped that burning material that would incriminate Ries would win his trust.  When that failed, Schindler hoped that by moving to Frankfurt, where he was certain to see Ries in the street, he could eventually wear him down.  (For his part, Ries was frequently out of town.)    Ries snubbed him.  Year after year.
Ries eventually partnered with Franz Wegeler, dying shortly after he completed his notes, which were first published in 1838.  The book was an immediate sensation.  Schindler was left in the cold.  No longer having a reason to delay, Schindler published his book in 1840, two years later.  He couldn't write the feud between Beethoven and Ries as he had destroyed the evidence.  Without it, he would only be spitting in the wind.  The best he could do was pretty much what he actually did:  Exaggerate and puff himself up, in a vain attempt to make himself heard.  He got his revenge by forever slandering Ries, claiming that Beethoven had said, "He imitates me too much."  Which too many people, ignorant of Ries' music, still believe.
Some parts of this story are well-known & easily documented.  I would put references in this, but I frankly do not know how they are done.  I would welcome their addition.  Dave of Maryland (talk) 23:49, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schindler and Ferdinand Ries