Talk:List of anthropogenic disasters by death toll/Archive 1

message: It might be helpful to begin subdividing this very incomplete list into subsections. If it ever includes even a fraction of the large-scale death events in world history it will be a very lengthy list. 
Natural disasters would include tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. A category for human violence would include wars, terrorism, criminal violence, insurgencies, riots, etc. Accidents could include transportation (with subsections aviation, rail, maritime, etc.), industrial accidents (whatever sections, but Dow Chemical in Bopal India would go there), Sporting accidents, etc. So far, There appear to be those three meta categories: Human violence, natural disasters, and accidents. Wait -- here's another - disease - this gets tough, because epidemiological issues come up against political issues. More fat eaters have died of heart disease than the total putative AIDs toll, but the heart toll is not widely publicized. Plague would go there, though, along with other epidemics. Then the entire work needs to be organized according to alphabetica interest. Maybe I will return to do this, but if not, these notes can help someone else get it organized.
Fire might be a source of death that defies categorization into either criminal violence, accident or natural disaster because some fires are of natural origin, some are accidental and some are the result of crime. The fires last year in Southern California were a result of all three, and fires of unknown origin combined with human set fires. Oddly, deaths from that fire resulted weeks later from mud slides after rain set in motion soils laid bare in the fire. And fires often result from war and insurgency. 
As an aside, the conundrum of classifying fire deaths reflects a general non-scholarly approach to the creation of this document. The subjects of cause of death, manner of death etc., are well developed in various academic studies, but contributors to this document seldom review academic literature before downloading into this cyclopedic document raw information from thier mind or from readily available sources. In many cases, the failure to classify mass deaths into manner and cause categories allows for continued unproductive political debate, the Holocaust being a prime example. Accurate reporting of records that classify the six to 12 million deaths as either resulting from gasseous execution, gunshot execution, unethical scientific experimentation, typhus deaths in concentration camps and starvation deaths in concentration camps are exploited by Holocaust deniers who try to seize the high ground by saying, accurately, that six million Jews didn't die in the gas chambers. In some cases - the Stalinist purges for example - and probably the Holocaust, detailed listings of named victims have been produced, and can provide the basis for accurate accounts of the events that led to so many deaths. This won't happen at Wikipedia today or tommorrow, but in creating these casual speculative articles, it is worth bearing in mind a writers ethical obligations to readers, and to at least leave ends open to point toward later improvement that would include more accurate detail.
Listing the highest death toll in a range might be the best for the National Enquirer but it is a poor approach for a speculative document such as Wikipedia because it embraces the most sensational claims at the expense of rational historical evidence. At the Alamo for example, the highest published reports reach as high as 1,500 but accurate accounts range from about 189 named dead to 240 ore so bodies unearthed. It also seems circular to pin the toll reports on other Wikipedia articles. A better approach would be to say discrepencies of death tolls may be developed in other Wikipedia articles, so contributors could add knowledge to this page without having to feel obligated to also edit the other articles right away. In general, the narrative could do more to explain how the list may develop instead of telling how it should be developed, but I haven't the time at this moment to make the changes, so these notes will have to do for now. Aniighshin 19:29, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed the same thing; that's why I have just deleted an anonymous editor's claim that 30 million died in the Cultural Revolution. In addition, I would highly question the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap  Forward's classification as acts of "Genocide and democide".  People didn't die in the great leap forward; they died in the ensuing famine from 1958-1961, which was compounded by simultaneously occurring natural disaster.  It is better classified as the Chinese famine of 1958-1961, which is listed in the "Famines" section.  Zh 00:11, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Subdividing

message: To whom it may concern:
First I would like to say how much I enjoy the Wikipedia encyclopedia. One thing that did trouble me though is that when you key in the words " Death Toll" . In the section of "War and Military actions" and " Genocide and Democide" it seems that you are trying to hide the facts of Turkish atrocities toward the Greeks. 5,000 - Turkish invasion of Cyprus (1974)
264,000 - Greeks killed in Asia Minor (Turkey, 1912 - 1923)
It seems there are no links to the keywords . Without having to explain further....I believe you know what I mean.....
Thank you
Nicholas A. Protopapas
This message was moved from the new user log by Trilobite (Talk) 14:46, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing Information

message: Willmcw 22:24, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Riots versus Democide

message: Whether it was purposeful or not, there were probably well over a million Native Americans killed by European expansion from the 1600s through the early 20th century. The only mention I see is of the Wounded Knee Massacre which, admittedly, was a bad day - but a drop in the bucket in the big picture.
:The problem with lumping the deaths together into one count is that they're a mix of many wars, genocide by several different groups, and disease. --Carnildo 22:05, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How can there be a genocide list without American Indians?  It is like listing wars and forgetting World War II!  It should be listed.  If the number is in dispute there can be a range. --Samuel Wantman 07:53, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: American Indian Genocide

message: Death toll of Good Friday Earthquake is 131. See main article.
And please, stop reverting my edits.
Darwin 21:03, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The death toll of the Good Friday earthquake is 9.  The tsunami killed 122.  See main article. --Carnildo 21:19, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Friday Earthquake

message: I've altered the heading to Contractible disease, since heart disease was added to the list.  Since the list clearly showed a list of contagious and contractible epidemics, I renamed the heading and removed the heart disease.  Now if someone wants to put a different list up that would include heart disease and other things, go ahead and do it, but it seems out of place with all the other lists in this article, since they deal with particular events or eras.  Lokifer 18:22, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disease

message: I'm aware that this list should probably be as restricted as possible, because of the fact that so many of these events are kinda' ambiguous when it comes to whether they are or are not 'terrorism', but should EgyptAir Flight 990 be considered 'terrorism'? I mean, if a single person with no ties to a so-called 'terrorist organization' were to walk into a stadium with a duffle bag full of C4 and nails, that would probably be considered terrorism, so wouldn't a pilot who, according to the black boxes, repeats "Tawakilt al Allah" fourteen times and then crashes a plane be considered terrorism? (Especially once you place it in the context of 9/11!) Refugee621 01:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: EgyptAir Flight 990

message: I keep removing this because this list does not try to show statistical deaths. (see the reasons above for removing annual heart disease death, etc.) If it did Ciudad Juarez would not be major. Chicago had over 8,000 murders in the same time span, for instance. Other cities have even higher murder rates like Rio. Rmhermen 15:10, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
Those deaths in Ciudad Juárez are more related than the deaths in Chigago or other cities. A very large proportion of the victims were young woman, and it's possible that the various killers worked together.
Besides, if you don't thing it belongs here then the page Deaths in Ciudad Juárez should be removed as well. (Or a similar page should me made about deaths in Chigago and other cities). --Mixcoatl 23:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Deaths in Ciudad Juárez]]

message: I see no reason why "2 - Ed Gein, Plainfield, Wisconsin (1957)" is mentioned at all. Even though his killings may have been brutal, etc, this article does not list these events by brutality of the act but by death toll, and if we did list every mudered who has killed more than 2 people, the list would grow hundreds of pages long. Therefore, I think removing this entry would be suitable.--HJV 21:16, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Murder

message: The list of deaths from tropical cyclones is very incomplete/inaccurate.
I think this list should be moved into List of notable tropical cyclones, with just the top 5 or so left in this article (as discussed above).  Note that the List of notable tropical cyclones article above doesn't have a "global" list of deadliest cyclones.  In fact there seems to be no good data on this at all (the only reliable sources are government institutions like NOAA or PTWC but these are all localized lists).
Any objections?
Jdorje 19:58, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tropical cyclones 

message: According to this article, 200,000,000 people died in 1300s, well this webpage says total world population was about 400,000,000, meaning half the people died, which is not true is it? according to our article on Black death 1/3 of europes pop. died, and europe was hardest hit. I therefore assume this article means total deaths ever of black death, if so it does not seem to indicate this. Bluemoose 15:53, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  black death 

message: While a good idea, none of these numbers are properly backed up by references or citations. In addition many of the WWII figures (and others?) represent POW's and injuries, not deaths. Also the figures for black death and other medieval periods need articles unto themselves to describe all the various demography theories how these numbers are arrived at and various widely varying conclusions. Stbalbach 23:17, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Silly article

message: I'm the second person to remove a rant by 66.176.253.86 regarding Hurricane Katrina.  I tried to leave a properly formatted entry; please revise as necessary.  I left ...86's estimate of 4,000-12,000 dead, even though this is starting to look too high.  Please replace if confirmed deaths are preferred or more recent official estimates are found.  Sethery 20:05, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Katrina Rant

message: I reverted the last two edits by PBP because they removed significant listings.  I'll agree that there is POV in some of those listings, but please edit out the POV rather than making Mao (for instance) disappear from the list.  Please also describe on this discussion page why listings should be deleted.  Sethery 21:50, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverted

message: Please stop combining these two ships to manufacture the world's greatest wartime maritime death toll. Conflating this separate sinkings smacks of a POV - trying to manufacture a disaster of greater proportions for concentration camp evacuees, than for ethnic German evacuees. The numbers are horrible enough on their own we don't need to alter them to make a point. Rmhermen 14:54, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They are separate ships. Many boats were sunk at the D-day landing also but they are all separate ships, they would not be reported as a total. Rmhermen 15:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cap Arcona and Thielbek

message: Why isn't there a list for firestorms like the Southern California firestorms of 2003 or the Oaklland Hills fires, each killing over 20 people.
:Add them then!  This is Wikipedia after all!
Nfitz 21:39, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Firestorms 

message: When an item in one of these lists has a range for the death toll (e.g., 1,000-2,000), should it be sorted according to the low end or high end of the range?  Ranges are not sorted consistently in this article; I've seen it either way.  I would vote for sorting according to the low end, because it would be most consistent with an open-ended range (e.g., 40,000+).  Sethery 00:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to Order Death Toll Ranges? 

message: The last few edits have been in rather poor taste, to put it mildly. Is it possible to IP ban here?
ComaDivine 17:04, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who's the bigot? 

message: I am a little bit surprised by the figure for the genocide during the Bosnian War. It's written 10,000, but in Srebenica only more than 5,000 died. Poppypetty 21:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosnian War 

message: The estimate of "30,000 - 100,000" deaths in the Iraq War has been here since 29 December 2004 . There have beens tens of thousands of deaths since then - the number of documented coalition casualties alone has grown by about a thousand. Shouldn't we have some updated numbers? bd2412 T 18:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are few good sources. Rmhermen 00:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MSNBC did a story on exactly that - Exact Iraqi death toll remains elusive. Afghanistan figures need updating too - unchanged since 29 October 2005, but there have been a few score deaths since then. I recall hearing of at least one battle where 1,000+ Taliban were reported killed. bd2412 T 01:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: ... so adding up all the confirmed civilian and coalition casualties including the estimates since the bombing of the Golden Dome (1,137 reported, possibly up to 2,500), as of this post that brings us to an official minimum of 33,909, and a maximum estimate of about 118,004 (adding up the deaths since the 100,000 figure was bandied). Again, this does not count Iraqi and foreign miltants/military forces killed (including Saddam's forces killed in the initial invasion), and also does not count U.S. contractors. This number will change day by day, of course. bd2412 T 02:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Newsweek has a new super-accurate body count through March 18, 2006 that puts all my efforts to shame, here. bd2412 T 01:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't see how it's original research to add the numbers being reported by the U.S. gov't and the Iraqi gov't (which is where the news media get their numbers). It's nice that there are other sites out there, but I don't trust them to be unbiased - I'll look into them, tho. The number has to be updated frequently because Wikipedia is, and will remain, the most accurate encyclopedia on the planet. If I didn't update daily, the numbers would be off by at least a few hundred at the end of a week, and by thousands at the end of a month! bd2412 T 15:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having looked at the bodycont sites, I'm unimpressed - each looks at either civilian deaths or military deaths. Only Wikipedia reports the total death toll. bd2412 T 15:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

text: There's a huge volume of statistics at Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003, but I can't easily see which you are choosing to get to "36,551–120,061" (unless i'm having a really bad day!) --mervyn 19:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update of Iraq War, 2003 

message: This page is waaay too long - we must subdivide into smaller pages - logically, we should separate out the natural disasters, peacetime/accidental man-made disasters, and wartime/terrorist/intentional man-made disasters. bd2412 T 16:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subdividing II 

message: The figures cited here for Stalin come from other Wikipedia articles and their references.  New references with vastly different estimates should be discussed in the source articles before revisions are made here.  Otherwise the inconsistency is non-academic.
Sethery 22:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stalin's Figures 

message: Just for clarity, I wonder if the nearly 20,000,000 for this war are also counted toward the WWII statistics. If so, perhaps this one should be appended with a note that states that. Thanks, and please leave a note on my talk page if you respond so I can read what you have to say! JHMM13 (T | C)   06:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second Sino-Japanese War (1931-45) toll