Talk:Side cap

message: I restored this section with a proper citation.  I left out the "biter"/"cockbiter" term because I couldn't find a good reference. 68.9.202.192 (talk) 14:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cunt cap 

message: Why is it sometimes called "pisscutter"?
:Question moved from article -- Ferkelparade π 07:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cap 

message: This article describes the US meaning of garrison cap to be what I would call a forage cap.  The combination cap article describes that cap (a "peaked cap") also as being referred to as a garrison cap in US parlence.
Which is right ?   Or is a garrison cap labelled as such when it can be worn in a garrison (i.e. working dress) and the term does not specifically refer to the design of cap.
Can someone in the know put these two articles right please ?
:It seems that a number of these terms (garrison cap, forage cap, and service cap) refer to different pieces of headgear, depending on time and place. Some web sites I visited show the garrison cap as a WWI-era combination cap, others as a modern USMC field cap (it always looked like a train engineer cap, in camo colours). I do not know what these lids are called officially. 
:As for forage cap, that is also used to describe:
::- the kepi/shako-like cap of the US Army around the Civil War;
::- the old name for the peaked cap (combination cap) worn by the Canadian Forces, now called the servcie dress cap (which brings up its own problems)
::- the predecessor to the bowler cap formerly worn by female members of the CF (resembled the Civil War cap)
::- the WWII German Army field cap
::- a pillbox cap
::- and a number of specific regimental style undress fatigue caps from the 19th century or earlier
:The RAF website appears to refer to this cap (historically, at least) as the "field service cap", since the first RFC uniform was an Army uniform with this side cap. Confusion reigns!
:So I don't know if "garrison cap" is as ambiguous as "forage cap", but it is extremely Amero-centric. Maybe the generic cap should be called a "side cap", which is what it seems to be referred to internationally. --SigPig 06:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This cap was called an overseas cap or cunt-cap in the US Army of the 1950s and 60s. At that time, a garrison cap was a round peaked cap with visor and internal grommet. Both were used with dress greens. In the sixties a baseball cap or helmet liner was used with fatigues, and wearing a beret could get you an Article 15. __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garrison cap ? 

message: Although officiall called the Garrison Cap, I have also heard it refered to as a 'cunt cap'.  What is the origin of this terminology?  How wide spread is it?
:It's officially a flight cap in the U.S. armed forces. The origin is from basic observation - it looks like a vulva. Cunt Cap is alliterate, and obvious. Certainly my flight in basic used the term, and I'm damn sure the TI didn't say it. It's as wide spread as far as the Air Force and people who know the word cunt is. I've heard it used from as far as people who were from different tech schools than I, and have heard old crusty NCO's use it. Obviously people in the ass-kissing positions would never use it in front of a subordinate (politics), but I'm sure there are some officers who are aware of cunts and how well they go with caps. -- 10:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at article section "Offensive Term". -- Meyer 06:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A crusty old Rifles NCO of my acquaintance, having reached W.O. rank, referred to his new side-cap as a "split-arse cap."JF42 (talk) 20:02, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other terms for this accessory uniform piece 

message: From what I've heard from American Civil War re-enactors, the typical "civil war cap" is actually called a forage cap.  It was designed so that the wearer could use it to forage in the woods for berries, nuts, etc.  A version worn by officers, which wasn't as deep, was called a "kepi."
It's use wasn't restricted to the American Civil War, either.  In a painting of Napoleon III's surrender at the end of the Franco-Prussian War, the emperor is wearing a forage cap.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parmadil (talk • contribs) 04:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My books addressing Civil War uniforms confirm that it is a forage cap. Forage cap redirects to this article, hence its inclusion here. →Wordbuilder (talk) 15:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Forage cap" has been the designation given to several different types of working or undress headdresses since the early 19th century. The design of cap has varied according to different armies or periods. Editor SigPig gives a good summary of different useages of the word in the British, Canadian and US armed forces in discussion entries above. It is a bit confusing that at the moment there is no reference in the actual text of the "garrison cap" article to the kepi style "forage cap" widely worn by both sides in the American Civil War. Perhaps a paragraph could be added. Alternatively, a separate article dealing specifically with forage caps could be created. Any views? Buistr (talk) 22:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  forage cap 

message: The confusion arises, in  part, because military nomenclature is neither scientific or consistent.  A 'forage cap', as the name suggests, was originally any undress cap worn by British cavalry when tending to their mounts. Also called 'watering caps,' they tended to be round bonnets in form. Essentially it was working dress, worn for comfort and to protect the expensive and increasingly heavy helmets and shakos, etc.  Over the years, however, this has come to mean any undress or working headgear. The French term bonnet de police covered the same function.
Technically, in the British army, 'forage cap' came to mean a round undress cap (peaked or not) as described in regulations, worn by all arms. Since the introduction, between 1895 and 1905, of the Field Service Cap followed by the Service Dress Cap,  I believe 'forage cap' has come to signify a coloured, stiffened, peaked cap worn in certain orders of dress principally by Guards and Cavalry and for formal parade wear by most arms and branches; the most obvious exceptions being Scottish Regiments, the Parachute Regiment and the Royal Tank Corps.
The Russians call their version, rather quaintly, furashka.
More recently, however, as far as British lay usage goes, people would think of a forage cap as what was known officially here as the 'Field Service' or 'Side' cap- but essentially any similar peakless, pleated-crown, fore-and-aft, wedge-shape (I could go on), folding bonnet. (What the Russians would call pilotka.)
In form, it is a very basic, piece of generic head-gear, although quite complex in structure. It seems to have appeared first in the British army circa 1800 or a little earlier, then in the Austrian army ca.1812, but the idea of folding caps had been developing for some years, not least in the form of the Glengarry bonnet. At the same time  the hanging 'flamme of the  French bonnet de police was beginning to atrophy, so that by the 1850's it was represented by a triangle of piping on one side of the body of the cap and by a tassle on the forward part of the crown. The resultant bonnet de police soufflet or bonnet de quartier with its braid-edged turn-ups resembled the 1812 laagermutze still being worn by the Austrians. 
The fact that waiters in retro diners and other catering staff wear a similar cap is as much  because a cheap paper cap can be folded flat and packed in boxes by the hundreds as because it is a snappy little number recalling the fragile certainties of the Eisenhower era. This underlies the basic functionality of the form. It's stowability was the essential factor. The additional comfort of flaps to keep the wearer's ears warm, when included in the design, were a bonus.
So, Emperor Napoleon III was not wearing a 'forage cap'. He was wearing a kepi- a soft, undress  version of the tall shako cap- which first appeared in the Austrian cavalry early in the nineteenth century and was adopted in the 1840s as the working headgear of French Colonial troops in North Africa- the Casquette d'Afrique- and then by the elite riflemen of the Chasseurs de Vincennes- Casquette Chasseur and finally by the whole French army, when it was given the official name of bonnet de police visiere. (The Garde Imperiale kept their bonnet de police). The name kepi probably derived from  the kappi of German-speaking volunteers in the Legion Etrangere. This essentially Austrian item became associated with the briefly victorious and modish Second Empire in France and was adopted by the U.S. Army, first in a stiff version, the 'Albert' or 'Gig' cap and subsq.  the soft 'Forage Cap'- intended to be worn with the 'sack coat' for working dress. It was only because of the need for an inexpensive, mass-produced head dress at the outbreak of the American Civil War in 1861 that this Austro-Franco garment with its crown, crushed and tipped rakishly forward and known as the 'bummer's cap', became so widely associated with the US soldier of the later 19th century and why some might think a kepi -or kappi- is a 'forage cap'- which of course it essentially was. Confused? You should be.
This article is called 'Garrison Cap' because from the original writer's point of view, in his part of the world, that was the generic name for the peakless, fore-and-aft, pleat-crown uniform cap (or bonnet). That wasn't correct, but an article with an accurate generic name as its title would be unworkable, even if such a title could be agreed on.
"Military undress headgear"? "Military undress and working headgear"? Not much help either.
Perhaps it would be best to restrict Garrison Cap to the North American Usage and cross-refer to other articles on the parallel forms: "Side Cap/ "Field Service Cap" ; "Bonnet de Police / Calot" etc,etc.JF42 (talk) 23:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a well written and informative addition JF42. Whatever the outcome of the garrison cap/forage cap/etc confusion, I suggest that you incorporate some or all of your material into the text of the actual article(s). Buistr (talk) 04:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the kind compliment. A bit off the cuff, to be truthful. I will give your suggestion some thought.JF42 (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Forage caps: generics and specifics 

message: 98.215.174.164 removed the section mentioning the term "cuntcap", as the reference cited turned out to be a false reference. I've reinstated the section as it's clear from this talkpage and a quick net search that that term is in use; but I've removed the questionable reference for now. Vulgarity is no reason to remove content from the encyclopedia. mcpusc (talk) 07:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not censored. Agreed. But I've tidied up the synonyms and added a new section. There is no need, just because they exist, to include every synonym and slang equivalent to an article's head name in its very first sentence. -- Picapica (talk) 11:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cuntcap" removal. 

message: i've seen many vintage photos and some modern ones too of them being worn at an angle --sometimes remarkably so. i recall one caption mentioning "jaunty angle" --can anyone explain why this is done? i've wondered for decades actually and never found info. anyone?  Cramyourspam (talk) 20:05, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angled Wear --why? 

message: Regarding this edit "Some who wear air force uniform are not in RCAF, and some in the RCAF do not wear air force uniform)". The RCAF is not a separate military service like the RAF or the USAF. It is a command within the Canadian Armed Forces. So what is commonly called RCAF uniform is really CAF air force uniform. It is not uncommon for CAF airpersons to be employed outside the RCAF. In fact there is a whole squadron, 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron, that is not part of the RCAF but instead part of Canadian Special Operations Forces Command. And it also not unusual to see naval and army uniforms in an RCAF unit. Logistics Branch members for example, can transfer between units across the whole CAF, but they do not change uniforms if they transfer from an RCN unit to an RCAF unit. Indefatigable (talk) 16:43, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you please provide a source for individuals who are not in the RCAF wearing the RCAF uniform? While technically correct, the environmental commands function incidentally to military services, so I am not sure what point you are trying to make.Garuda28 (talk) 17:45, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  RCAF 

message: In this edit, I've changed the caption from
:Great Patriotic War veteran wearing both a gymnastyorka and a pilotka.
to
:A man in Russia dressed as a veteran of the Great Patriotic War wearing both a gymnastyorka and a pilotka.
for the following reasons:
* Even if the person were to have been a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, which ended in 1945, then he should have been at least 16 in 1945 in order for him to have been drafted (or enlisted) into the Soviet Army, which would have made his birth year 1929 at the very latest. As the photo was shot in 2008, the person should have been at least 79 years old, but this man looks far too young to be a veteran of WWII.
* :commons:File talk:Dashing war veteran and cadets in SPb.jpg contains a Russian-language complaint, that the man is wearing either an emblem or pendant appearing to be that of the Suvorov Military School, the earliest wearable signs for the graduates of which were implemented in 1958.
* The man also carries with him what looks like an open can of beer.
-Mardus /talk 18:56, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image caption change 

message: "In the British Army, the first cap to be adopted of this style was the "Glengarry", which was authorised for all British infantry regiments in 1868 (although Scottish regiments had been wearing it since 1848)"
In fact the military version of the folding bonnet, known as the glengarr was first adopted by the 79th Highlnders around 1841. It was then ordered for all Highland regiments (instead of the round 'Kilmarnock' bonnet- worn by all infantry) in 1852.
However, fore-and-aft folding forage caps were shown being  worn by British infantry in illustrations by W.H. Pyne produced in 1803. These were superceded by round bonnets in the course of the Napoleonic wars.
JF42 (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  'In the British Army, the first cap to be adopted' 

message: Why have images illustrating Russian caps been placed in the United Kingdom section?
JF42 (talk) 07:52, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in the page I am looking at, at the top left of frame, parallel to the section title 'United Kingdom' is the photograph of  a individual dresed in WW2 Russian uniform. On the right hand side  opposite is the image of a  pilotka. Below that image  is a monochrome photograph of King George VI and Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding in RAF side caps.
JF42 (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it was an old layout issue, one long ago fixed. There's a reason why one shouldn't respond to years-old comments like these unless a cursory glance shows that the issue persists. Mostly because any such issues are long taken care of. oknazevad (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian images illustrating United Kingdom section 

message: In my opinion, any tabs containing country names should be put into alphabetical order as in my opinion it will improve the presentation of the article. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 20:04, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tabs containing country names should be put into alphabetical order