Talk:Christmas/Archive 4

message: Is it a live recording? The clarinet sounds live (and good btw) but i think the rest if not all is the Kontakt Player that comes w/ Sibelius 4. If you feel this is pointless and want to delet it, go ahead, i was just wondering. 75.82.85.120 01:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Angels We Have Heard On High

message: This section has many subsections, and I think it may need to be either shortened or divided for better clarity. Perhaps for the pre-Christian sections and "Origin of Christian festival" section we could rename this umbrella section as "Origins", while the remainder could be "History"? I'm just shouting out suggestions but I think it may be a bit too long and uninteruppted as is current. Any comments would be appreciated, thanks. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` (my Xmas) 19:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's a good idea.  - Eron Talk 00:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think these two subsections are the parts of the article that attact the most reader interest, so I don't follow the logic in wanting to shorten them. As I see it, the "pre-Christian" section is about various holidays other than Christmas, each of which has its own article elsewhere. I don't think this subsection it should be conflated with the "Origin" subsection, which is actually about Christmas where it came from.Kauffner 09:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ```Strong Agree```: The Origin of Christmas is the Nativity and that should go first. There is no Christmas without the Nativity. After all, Christmas is about the birth of Christ and the Nativity  is about the birth of Christ. The History of Christmas does not exist without the Origin of Christmas. As a result, Saturnalia and Yule, from which some customs are clealy borrowed (i.e. drunkeness and singing) should go in the customs of Christmas section. However, the gambling and nudity mentioned have in the Saturnalia section have little to do with what anyone would call Christmas. This is not a point of view, this is a fact.Tiger5Claw5 06:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lengthy "History" section 

message: I've staggered the images (left-right-left-right) two or three times, but each time they've been moved to the right. Does someone like the images on the right? The No. 1 purpose of images is to break up the text, i.e. keep the graphical pattern from becoming too regular. That don't happen if all the images are in a column on the right.Kauffner 12:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been a lot of changes in the last few weeks, and I can't quite figure out when, why, or how the images got moved around. I may have reverted some of the moves myself when dealing with other edits. I agree that they can and probably should be staggered. - Eron Talk 16:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: We have a picture of the Nativity already. The image at the top has been chosen to reflect all aspects of the holiday - secular as well as christian. - Eron Talk 21:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images on right 

message: The first paragraph states that it marks Jesus' birthdate but later dsiagrees saying it is merely to remember his birth. Seeing as the second is true it should be stated as this throughout —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.130.110.116 (talk • contribs) 11:17, 19 December 2006  (UTC)
:I don't really see the problem here. The first sentence reads "Christmas or Christmas Day is an annual holiday that marks the traditional birthdate of Jesus of Nazareth." A later sentence reads "December 25 as a birthdate for Jesus is merely traditional, and is not thought to be his actual date of birth." (emphasis added). I can't see any conflict or lack of clarity here. Regardless of what his actual birthdate was, Christmas is the "official" birthday of Jesus of Nazareth, and the article makes that clear. (See also Presidents' Day (United States) and Queen's Official Birthday for other examples of public figures whose births are marked on somewhat arbitrary dates.) - Eron Talk 16:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  General "Clean-up" 

message: I don't know if this has been raised before but, although December 25th was the winter solstice in 45 BC, by the third century (200AD), when Christmas may have been instituted, the inaccuracies in the calendar (gaining a day every 134 years) meant the Solstice fell on the 23rd December. This suggests the date of Christmas was not chosen to coincide with the solstice. Dmottram 16:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is noted in the article that the date of the actual solstice has changed. I don't see where it states that Christmas was chosen to coincide with the solstice; it states that Christmas may have been chosen to coincide with Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. That date - the birth of the Unconquered Sun - was picked to coincide with the solstice, and then moved away from the actual solstice due to calendrical drift. But is was that festival, and not the solstice itself, that is believed to have given us the date of Christmas. - Eron Talk 16:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is noted that the solstice date has changed, but only refers to "modern times", not to the fact that it changed in ancient times as well. This means that by the time Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was instituted (3rd century), the 25th December was not the Winter Solstice - and Roman astronomers knew this. It would appear that Saturnalia was the solstice festival celebrated to end on the Solstice - which might explain its shortening as the solstice date changed.Dmottram 10:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When the Julian calendar was first introduced, leap year was every three years. (They knew this was wrong astronomically. Perhaps it was done to prevent market day from falling on Jan. 1, which was considered unlucky.) So the correspondance between Dec. 25 and the astronomical solstice was messed up almost immediately. Augustus rejiggered the calendar so that the anniversity of Actium would fall in August, which he thought of as his month. Celebrating on the astronomically correct date obviously wasn't all that important to the Romans. Few writers even noticed the politicization of the calendar. They generally took for granted that Dec. 25 was the actual date of the solstice up until the Council of Nicene (325), when the date was recalculated. Kauffner 14:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are so many people harking on about winter solstice and calendars and things? What kind of rubbish is being taught  in school science and geography lessons these days? This event has been recorded as far back as the ancient Egyptians as  the virgin earth giving birth to the new  sun, or in modern parlance the point at which the sun start to move north again on the noon meridian. It has nothing to do with the shortest day. You can use the Chinese or ancient Aztec calendars if you wish and it will still happen at the same (local sun) time. It was precisely because the old calendars were getting out of step with this (the solar year) that they were incrementally improved upon. Hope this clears up the confusion.--Aspro 13:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solstice 

message: Clearly there are many differences between Saturnalia and Christmas and I think that the time has come to remove the link to Saturnalia. Christmas is one day, whereas Saturnalia is five or seven. Saturnalia ends on the 21st, whereas Christmas is on the 25th. Saturnalia was celebrated by pagans. Christmas is celebrated by Christians, although everyone enjoys a day-off. The god celebrated in Saturnalia was Saturn, the Son of God celebrated in Christmas is Jesus Christ. Saturnalia was in existence long before 1 AD and is no longer practiced. Christmas started in 1 AD and is still celebrated by over 2 billion people in 2006 AD. How does one go about removing irrelevant sections without being falsely accused of vandalism?Tiger5Claw5 04:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) Firstly, I do agree that the connections between Saturnalia and Christmas are not adequately explained or "linked" in the Saturnalia section; the section just looks like an excerpt from Saturnalia. But I do, however, agree that mention of Saturnalia does have due weight mention in this article. It does seem apparent that links between Saturnalia and Christmas have been positively established. In conclusion however, I do think the whole pre-Christian section needs to be re-written. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` (merry C–mas) 04:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strong Disagree: The information and link regarding Saturnalia is correct and proper here, as the main reason that Christmas is celebrated when it is was the influence of other winter festivals of the time, the largest in the Roman world being Saturnalia. Besides, NPOV practically demands that we mention other similar and closely linked festivals in this article. --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 04:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This edit  is probably related to the claim of "falsely accused of vandalism" by Tiger5Claw5 ? . Not all was cleaned up so I have edited back in the original cited data and removed some of the uncited claims. BTW: In Italy today candles are still made for adults as gifts (I haven't added that in - it's just and observation). Ttiotsw 05:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Strong Agree: There is no credible comparison between Saturnalia and Christmas. Does Saturnalia recognize the birth of a child, are there wise men with gifts, shepherds with staffs, angels with wings? Was Saturnalia the result of a Roman census? The section on Saturnalia does not belong in the history section. The section on Sol Invictus, however, is backed by credible citations and should be included in the history section, since Sol Invictus was replaced by Christmas when a Christian became emperor of Rome. However, the Sol Invictus section should come after the Nativity story, which is the basis of Christmas. The section on Yule should be included in the appropriate chronological order, since traditions were borrowed from Yule, after Rome conquered Northern Europe. This is not a point of view, 'Christ'mas does not exist without Jesus 'Christ'. BTW, Merry Christmas to any Christians out there and Happy Winter Festival to anyone else.Tiger5Claw5 06:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: No tie between Winter Solstice celebrations and Christmas? So, tell me Tigerclaw, why is Christmas held in the winter despite the wide knowledge that he was born in the spring? Oh, and Blessed Yule to you, too! :)  --Bill W. Smith, Jr. 18:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Reply: As mentioned, when Christmas became official in Rome, Christmas was meant to replace the Roman Holiday Sol Invictus. This was simply meant to indicate that Jesus Christ was now the official God of Rome. The fact that Sol Invictus may have been intended to replace the drunken revelry of Saturnalia is a secondary fact. However, Saturnalia changes dates, but Sol Invictus and Christmas do not. In a few hundred years, Saturnalia will be on the 19th or 20th. However, Christmas will still be on the 25th. Many festivals involve drunken revelry, but that hardly indicates any theological comparison. Unfortunately, my critique of the comparison of Saturnalia and Christmas, which sought to balance the pagan Point of View, was deleted. Perhaps some pagans found the arguments were too convincing to be allowed to be seen by their less pagan friends. The Holy fathers chose to replace Sol Invictus rather than some other Roman festival (i.e. the strawberry picking festival, the goat milking festival, etc.) to highlight the fact the Jesus Christ was greater than the Emperor as Sol was in the past. Since the actual birth date of Jesus Christ was not known, the Holy fathers choose to pick one with a political significance. Church and State were the same at time, you might recall.Tiger5Claw5 23:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reply: it wasn't because of the pagan in us (I'm atheist - is that pagan ?) but that your critique didn't make any sense, that's why it was deleted. Rome hijacked and flip-flopped gods and festivals. Christians did this same trick too; nothing new here. I'm completely indifferent to the worship and idolisation of Jesus that Christians have but still go with just about everything of Christmas as, though the 25th is just one day, the Christmas eve masses (i.e. the 24th) are a big deal and the 26th (St Stephens day) or Boxing day is also important in many countries and then right through to the 6th January with the Ephiphany (which in some countries is when gifts are given) and then there is the 7th which is the Orthodox date. Just reading that and the history of Christmas tells me that your view is somewhat revisionist of the rich and bloody history of how Christianity has subsumed earlier cults with its own implementations. Ttiotsw 00:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Strong Disagree Without Saturnalia, Christmas would probably be celebrated on another day, and no one would make a big fuss about it. If the Romans didn't have their holiday, we Christians wouldn't have one either. It's just the evolution of Ancient peer pressure. | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 23:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Disagree I don't believe Christmas evolved from Saturnalia. The theory is not defended by any historian who has looked at the issue. But many readers will be familar with it, so it needs to be mentioned. As explained in the "origin" section, the most likely explanation of the date of Christmas is that it is the date of Incarnation (March 25) plus nine months. Saturnalia was an Italian holiday held December 17-22. Christmas has always been most popular in northern Europe (persumably as a carry over from Yule).203.146.63.187 07:03, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Strong Disagree Saturnalia's role as one of the root sources for the celebration we call Christmas has been very clearly established.  The main source of this argument here seems to be the continuing tension between sacred (Christian) Christmas and secular Christmas.  Church dogma is not history and in fact there was a "Christmas without Christ," if you will, it just wasn't called that.  Christian influences are an essential component of most Western traditions, but they aren't the only component and Wikipedia should describe the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.The Cormac 23:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time to Remove Saturnalia from Christmas (2006 AD)? 

message: The section on Yule says that Yule logs were lit to honor Thor, yet the linked Yule log section makes no mention of Thor whatsoever, but says that Yule comes from Jule, another name for Odin. I was under the impression that Thor and Odin were separate gods, but if they are the same entity, both the Yule Log article and the yule section in the Christmas article should mention that. OTOH if they are separate gods, then the Yule Log article and the yule section in the Christmas article need to be brought into line one way or another. If Yule Logs were lit to honor Thor, then the Yule Log article ought to says so. If noone who actually knows what they are talking about wants to fix this, I will take a stab at it shortly.
Panzerb0y 17:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yule 

message: Christmas is the celebration of Jesus birth although Christ was born most likely in the spring. But it use to be pegan holiday and christians were trying to find the perfect day for celebrating Jesus' birth. This seemed like the perfect day and so it has turned out soMiapowell 02:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  jesus birth 

message: I have removed the following link 2x:
*Concerning The War Over Christmas The Christmas Lie: It's Bigger Than You Think
It has come back every time.  I am more than willing to admit that I am in the wrong on this one. Either way, I am up against the 3RR.  If other editors think it is appropriate for the article, leave it.  If not ...  Pastordavid 09:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The link points to non-notable content. It doesn't feel right for Wikipedia to link to it. I'm removing it. Ttiotsw 10:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avoiding 3RR 

message: I wanted to congratulate everyone for the excellent work that has been done on this article recently, I think we've made the article as closest to perfection as possible in the weeks and months leading to the Christmas holiday. With the co-operation of many of you, including Eron, MightyAtom, Kauffner, Doc Tropics, and many more, we've managed to increase both the NPOV and presentation of the article in time for Christmas.
And on this Christmas Eve, I want to extend a Merry Christmas to you all, and the greatest in the New Year. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` (merry C–mas) 21:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not forgetting those people, eg in Australia and New Zealand, who are celebrating the 25th right now. Isnt globalism amazing, surely the true spirit of Christmas is thus! I think my own edits today have helped give the article more of an international flavour, SqueakBox 21:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And I personally extend my thanks for your contributions, SqueakBox. Hope you have a Merry Christmas. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` (merry C–mas) 22:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excellent work 

message: The article has,
The birth took place in a "stable", surrounded by farm animals, and the infant Jesus was laid in a manger.
Which version of the Bible mentions "stable"  ?. The few I checked up only say that there was no room at the inn. To me it is WP:OR to include the word stable (double quotes or not) unless a notable source can be found that interprets being outside of the inn as being in a stable. Traditionally nativity scenes have some form of a stable but the Wikipedia text for Nativity_scene says "in a barn (or cave)" so we're internally inconsistent anyway. I vote we remove "stable" and replace it,
"The birth took place outside of the inn" 
as that is stated in the bible passage which though it is a primary text we are stating a fact not an interpretation of events. 
Same applies to Nativity_of_Jesus where it cites Luke 2:7 and yet says "Having found no place for themselves in the inn, they lodged in a stable or cave where animals used to be kept." that bit on the stable or cave is WP:OR though it states later in Nativity_of_Jesus#Location where this came about. Ttiotsw 01:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  We need a cite for the Stable bit in Nativity or need to reword this sentence, 

message: Do we really need the Current Event tag? That is for things like video games that have just been released, and, as a result, the article will be rapidly updated with new information. I don't foresee a semi-protected article that is about a holiday that has been celebrated for more than 1500 years being rapidly updated with new information. Do we really need this tag? -- The Hybrid wishes you a Merry Christmas 07:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Event Tag 

message: It quotes that there is no evidence to suggest that there was a football (grrr, not SOCCER) match between the British and German troops after the temporary truce. However, there have been many articles in the British press in the run-up to Christmas quoting a German soldier's diary. (SORRY, no link, i'm afraid). To sum it up, it suggests that the game was between SCOTTISH and german troops, and that the "Fritz beat the Tommies to the score of three to two" 82.31.33.178 18:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The story of the football match is widespread, but so far no one has been able to provide a verifiable reference so without one, we can't say that is it a true story. - Eron Talk 18:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We would love a reference for that section if you can find one! That would be great! MightyAtom 20:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  20th C and After 

message: The inclusion of Mithras in the section "Natalis Solis Invicti" is wrong.  Mithraism was a competing religion to Christianity, indeed the leading competitor in the 3rd century.  Mithra's birth was celebrated on the date we currently use for Christmas and it has been suggested that Christian leaders chose the date for Jesus’ birth to blunt a competitive advantage of the Mithra proselytizers.  Whether this is true of not, it is true that Mithra was no sun god and his inclusion in this section is sloppy.The Cormac 23:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note the references on those sections.  If you have a reference that states differently, please bring it up for discussion! MightyAtom 20:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica and several other sources I checked agree that Mithras was a sun god for the Greeks and Romans (identified with the Greek god Helios). For the Iranians, Mithras was a god of light rather than a sun god -- perhaps this is the source of the confusion.Kauffner 14:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Umm, Mithra was not a Sun God 

message: So far as the Little Match Girl is concerned, the story takes place on New Year's Eve, not Christmas Eve. So I think it may be a case of close, but no cigar as far as this albeit classic fairy tale's relevance is concerned.
If it is decided that it should stay, however, it is also worth mentioning that the girl is not looking in windows to see the celebrations, but rather she is seeing visions in the lit matches... hallucinations... sort of.
I'll just leave it as it is for now. Oh, and Merry Christmas all! --Sillywalker 02:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Andersen 

message: I know the claim that Yule is a winter solstice holiday is widespead and many references can be given to support it. But it makes no sense. The date of Yule was determined by a lunar calendar, so in general none of days of Yule would correspond to the date of the solstice. It is likely that the first day of Yule was the day that the crescent of first new moon of the year became visible. Bede gives the date of Yule as Dec. 25. This is persumably the date Yule was assigned when it was transferred to the Julian calendar. See this page.
I actually have to disagree with my own source on one point. The page argues that Bede assigned Yule to Dec. 25 because he thought this was the date of the solstice. But in 325, the Council of Nicene recalculated the solstice date as Dec. 21. Bede made up the Easter Tables, so he must have known this. Perhaps Yule was put on Dec. 25 in order to Christianize the festival. It seems wildly improbable that the traditional date of the festival would just happen to be on the exact same date as Christmas. Kauffner 15:58, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are some good points, but also original research.  Publish a paper on the topic somewhere so we can use it as a source for the article! :) MightyAtom 16:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Yule is not a solstice holiday

message: I've reverted a number of the recent edits from User:Disco79. Most of these were made without prior discussion, and as can be seen from the talk page above, this editor did not seemed to be interested in working with other editors to achieve a consensus on the page content. The nature of these edits, along with recent events involving this editor (see his UserTalk page history), cause me some concern that the intent was to insert an anti-Christian POV into the article.
I think that at least some of the content this editor brought may be good additions to the page; however, it was getting a bit hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. Most of the edits were to the "Origin of the Christian festival" section. I've reverted them, but I'm going to take a look and see if there is anything that should be restored. I'd ask other editors to take a look as well. - Eron Talk 19:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversion of some recent changes  

message: Just wondering if we could have a little more detail on the evolution of the Wise Men from the Biblical to the later mythologies.  The Main Article gives the traditional names for three wise men without indicating that these are not in the Biblical material.  Matthew (who doesn't mention the manger or the shepherds) is the only writer to mention "Wise men from the East" who follow the star.  It is clear from the narrative that Matthew intends the star to have first appeared to the wise men when Jesus was born, they then travel some distance (probably expected to be from Babylon)to visit King Herod in Jerusalem, who consults the local religious leaders.  Then (finally) the wise men travel to Bethlehem to see the baby, who by now is at least several months old - Herod, in trying to destroy Jesus, is recorded as ordering the death of all children under two years - and that was after carefully enquiring as to when the star had appeared.  Source: Matthew chapter 2.
Much later traditions bring the wise men to a stable (it makes for a full nativity scene), number them as three (to match the gifts) and assign names to them.  I leave it to others to provide the sources for these traditions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.192.14.163 (talk) 01:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wise Men 

message: I really think you should put the "Pre-Christian winter festivals" section into a winter festivals article. It's not really Christmas' history per se, it's more just the history of winter festivals. You could even merge list of winter festivals into it and it would create a decent sized article once you add in info about all the other festivals. Then you just have to put "blahblah is a winter festival" on each winter festival page (ie Christmas page, Hannukah page, Saturnalia page, etc.)--24.57.157.81 10:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a proposal to elimate the Saturnalia section earlier. You can see the outpouring of emotion against the idea under "Time to Remove Saturnalia from Christmas (2006 AD)?" above. Your proposal strikes me as a more radical version of the same idea, so I think it flies against a clear consensus. But I sympathize with your general point that there is too much prominence given to other holidays in the article. Maybe the section can be shortened or moved down. Kauffner 06:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't notice or I wouldn't have bothered. I know exactly what is going on. --24.57.157.81 05:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: I did a story on the ancient origins of Christmas for the Discovery Channel back in December, and thought it might be an appropriate addition to the External Links section of this page.  If anyone else agrees, here's the link:
Ancient Origins of Christmas
I'd do it myself, but the wikipedia guidelines suggested I post the link here and let someone else decide if it's a good fit.  Thanks!
Discoverynewsvideo 18:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to Christmas Origins story? 

message: For some reason, this article is missing the point of Christmas belief, namely the commemoration of Jesus Christ's arrival as the Son of God come in the flesh. The only mention of God is in reference to pagan sun gods, which is an important historical note but fails to address why this day is such a big deal. For conciseness, a simple link to the Trinity article would suffice to prevent a lot of theological elaboration and controversy. Also  it would be valuable to mention briefly the place Christmas within the Christmas Season--noting the Octave (8 days from the 25th denoting the circumcision of Christ)and ending after Epiphany Sunday. As mentioned, the Orthodox Season begins with Christmas observed Jan. 7 and ends on Theophany Jan. 19th.
Swisswiss 14:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first line of the article reads "Christmas or Christmas Day is an annual holiday that marks the birth of Jesus of Nazareth." The main article on Jesus details who he was. Not everyone who celebrates Christmas believes that he was "the Son of God come in the flesh," and for them there are other reasons why the day is important. - Eron Talk 15:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Swisswiss is right, cleary this article represents a pagan POV and should be edited to represent the actual meaning of Christmas. By the way, Christmas means Christ's Mass, a celebration of Jesus Christ's birthday. This why it is only one day and not five or six like Saturnalia. I'll fix this problem right away. This also points out the fact that a group of people can hijack a term on Wikipedia and distort the true meaning, making Wikipedia useless.Tiger5Claw5 04:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Saturnalia started on Dec. 17 and always ended well before December 25. It was an Italian festival, whereas Christmas has always been most popular in Northern Europe, persumably as carry-over from Yule. You won't find historians who've researched the issue claiming that Christmas evolved from Saturnalia. Why is Christmas on Dec. 25? This was the date of the winter solstice, the date of the Sol Invictus Festival, and it is nine months after incarnation (March 25). But the Christmas-from-Saturnalia theory is such a common UL, it still needs to be mentioned, despite the fact that it is clearly incorrect. Kauffner 02:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Point of Christmas? 

message: I added the following "note" as a citation to my new changes about Christian connotations to the intro: 
"Though the marking of the historically authenticated birth of Jesus can objectively be regarded as a secular event that is free of religious implications, the philisophy, teachings and life of Jesus are the very basis of Christianity, and Christmas is often cited as a Christian holiday for this reason. Christmas' applied connotations with Christianity are sometimes controversial, and many celebrate without even acknowledging Jesus, usually because of personal theological conflictions with Christianity."
I'd like some input on all this, please. Any improvements I can make should be mentioned. --Sarcha 45 01:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Sarcha 45! Thanks for contributing to this page! However, it is usually best to discuss major changes to the introduction on the talk page first, if you don't want them to be reverted. The editors working on this article are seeking to strike a balance between the christian and secular aspects of this holiday, and as you might suppose differences of opinion are strong.  There is already a section discussing the Christmas controversy, and it probably isn't necessary to put it into the introduction. MightyAtom 02:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ...It's not in the introduction. It's a citation that directs to the bottom of the page. --Sarcha 45 02:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Specifications about Jesus, Christian affiliation 

message: Someone decided to delete the whole article and replace it with one line of text, all-caps. Someone replace it and delete this user.
Dog Man311 19:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandalism reverted, user warned.  -- Pastordavid 19:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: The History section's first subhead was recently changed from "Pre-Christian Winter Festivals" to "Pagan Winter Festivals". While this change seems relatively minor, and I'm not necessarily strongly oppposed to it, I do have some reservations about the usage. My understanding is that the term "Pagan" is essentially a Christian term used to describe certain non-Christian belief systems. However, the original phrase "Pre-Christian" would seem to be an NPOV and technically accurate term. If this is true, then the preferred usage on WP would certainly be the original phrasing. I'll allow time for responses, but plan to change it back in the absence of any strong objections. Doc  Tropics 19:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre-Christian vs. Pagan

message: I have removed the following recently added text from the Nativity section:
:Common Misconception speaks that the birth took place in a "stable", surrounded by farm animals, though this is in fact not refered to in the bible, only the Manger.  Possible origins of the Stable theory bing that, as a manger is a feeding box for Animals, it would be obvious that it is in a stable, but this is not given in the Testament.
:The Animals present were first introduced in the nativity model given by St Francis of Assisi in Italy, who was the Patron saint of Animals.  Since then, it has been adopted as fact, though inaccurate.
*"Possible origins of the stable theory," with no source, sounds like original research.
*The claims regarding St. Francis are unreferenced.
*Words like "common misconception" and "adopted as fact, though inaccurate" seem to violate neutral point of view.
I encourage the editor adding these to discuss them here and get some consensus before restoring them. - Eron Talk 02:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Nativity 

message: Should Christmas be counted as a hallmark holiday, considering it has no actual christian roots, having been basically lifted from pagan beliefs, and the fact that it is little more than an excuse for commercialism in the modern age  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.166.183 (talk) 17:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. - Eron Talk 17:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hallmark Holiday 

message: You should talk about how non religions people celebrate Christmas, they have it just to be with family and stuff like that christmas is getting more and more not about jesus.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hunterprice (talk • contribs) 20:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just like St. Valentine's Day will always be the celebration and honoring of St. Valentine, regardless of what other secular festivities are included, Christmas (Christ's mass) will always be about the honoring and traditional birth of Jesus; unless someone changes the name. Doesn't matter a damn bit how anyone chooses to celebrate it 142.176.46.3 12:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While an interesting opinion, I don't think it's valid. How Christmas is celebrated is a big part of what Christmas is, it has a place in an encyclopedia. Most of this article is about how Christmas is celebrated. IvoShandor 11:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non cristian Celebration  

message: First, I thought yule tide was usually written as yuletide, i.e., without that space. Second, Yule is not Christmas (although that article is right that they are used interchangeably in many cases), so why do we say Christmas is also called Yule?  Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 04:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Also called yule or yule tide? 

message: In "The Reformation and the 1800s" section, what does this mean?
::The numerous German immigrants and the homecomings following the American Civil War helped promote the holiday by bringing with them continental European traditions.
How exactly did the returning Civil War soldiers bring home continental European traditions?  This sentence needs to be reworked for clarity.  I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure what the original author intended to say. SlackerMom 13:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Civil War reference