Talk:Estland

message: This article was quite problematic, and full of dubious historical claims.
First, it said that Estonia before February 1918 was an independent state. This is quite an unusual claim. After the February Revolution, the Russian provinces of Estonia (Estland) and the Estonian-speaking northern half of Livonia were united into one province, and Estonia was given certain autonomy, but it was not independent. I removed everything about that.
I have also never heard that Estonia was ever a "principality". This might be a term from the Livonian war in the 16th century, which would be a completely different topic.
Of course we need an article about the Swedish and later Russian governorate  of Estonia (Eestimaa kubermang), which this is trying to be. But the naming is problematic, too. I haven't heard that "Estland" is the standard English name for this, I know it's been called Estonia of Esthonia. Estland might do better as a redirect to Estonia.
Rain74 08:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I second to that motion. --Klamber 19:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Soviet Republic of Naissaar is also a likely member of the same series. Digwuren 19:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Old talk

message: As of now, this article "disambiguates" between a number of old administrative territorialities that once existed.  I believe most of them shouldn't have their own articles, and should be merged into History of Estonia instead. Digwuren 08:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: Petri Krohn is still regularly attempting to vandalize this page in spite the consensus on talk page. He refers to AfD in witch the consensus was the same, this should serve as disambiguation page and AfD was closed per request of the starter after reaching this consensus. Is some form of administrative action needed to get this to stop?--Alexia Death 15:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there anything in those old pages he tries to push other than what had been handled under linked pages? Because I sure cant see anything.--Alexia Death 16:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is that keeping "Estland" as a concept separate from "Estonia" is what he wants to achieve.  Thus, it's not about content per se; it's about WP:WEIGHT. Digwuren 18:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't even think it's that, it's just a power struggle for the sake of it, and it is getting distruptive. I can't see any substantive issue here. There is already an article that covers this historical region Danish Estonia and Revel Governorate. Where is the need for another article that covers the same region in time and space? I think we have been hoodwinked into withdrawing the AfD believing there was a consensus to make Estland a disambiguation page. Clearly there isn't and some intend to make this article a POV fork to Danish Estonia and Revel Governorate. Martintg 04:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IF this form of page is being forced on us then the withrawal of AfD was premature and based on false assurance of consensus. Its VERY unfortunate that the current protected form is the false one. I say we start the Afd process again.--Alexia Death 05:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Petri Krohn|Petri Krohns]] continued attempts of reverting 

message: I really do not understand what is the point in the attacks against this page. If it was a question of the name, this could be solved. Someone just needs to propose a new name.
The issue seems to be something else, "time travel" irredentism. It seems like Estonian editors want to deny do not want it to be known, that most of Estonia in fact belonged to Livonia. The claim here is Estonia irredenta - Estonia has always existed and will always exist in its present borders. -- Petri Krohn 04:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not be ridiculous, we already have articles: Danish Estonia, Principality of Estland, Swedish Estonia, and Reval Governorate which explain that point. Nobody wants to delete those articles. Currently this article has minimal useful information, Demographics section belongs to Reval Governorate and the rest is simply very short overview and should be merged with History of Estonia.--Staberinde 10:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: There is an article called Danish Estonia which covers the historical part of contemporary Estonia that was not Livonia, this is english Wikipedia, Estland is Danish for Estonia. Get a grip. Your reverting of this article seems totally pointless. BTW I'm Australian, your ethnic slur against Estonian editors is noted. Martintg 04:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I second that. This page has no content besides links to other articles. It is already by essence a dab page with replicated material from respective articles.--Alexia Death 05:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And no estonian denies that once upon a time the land was split in two. However this topic has nothing to do with dening that. Its all about the small oddity in language develpment resulting contemporary english use Estonia and not archaic Estland. In estonian, there is no such difference. Both Eesti and Eestimaa are used in the same meaning. Eesti being the shortened, contemporary and official form.--Alexia Death 05:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Irredentism]]? 

message: :There is an article called Danish Estonia which covers the historical part of contemporary Estonia that was not Livonia, this is english Wikipedia, Estland is Danish for Estonia. Get a grip. Your reverting of this article seems totally pointless. BTW I'm Australian, your ethnic slur against Estonian editors is noted. Martintg 04:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I second that. This page has no content besides links to other articles. It is already by essence a dab page with replicated material from respective articles.--Alexia Death 05:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And no estonian denies that once upon a time the land was split in two. However this topic has nothing to do with dening that. Its all about the small oddity in language develpment resulting contemporary english use Estonia and not archaic Estland. In estonian, there is no such difference. Both Eesti and Eestimaa are used in the same meaning. Eesti being the shortened, contemporary and official form.--Alexia Death 05:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Lunacy]]? 

message: Anybody saying that AfD on this page failed havent clearly read the archive. AfD request was withrawin after what seemed like an agreement had been reached that this page needs to be a dab page. Nobody exept one user resists this and he does this by not giving any reasons, just reverting...--Alexia Death 05:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The AfD ended because the nominator withdrew the nomination, thus changing his vote from delete to keep (or dont care). The AfD did not reach the required proportion of votes or qualified votes to delete the article. It failed even more miserably on the arguments. Any administrator with balls would have closed this AfD early as baseless. -- Petri Krohn 12:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We are still waiting for your sources to support your argument, do you have any? Martintg 12:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification of the AfD process

message: Guys, please drop me a note when you would have some consensus over the article and I would be happy to unprotect. Alternatively you could request unprotection on WP:RPP. Protection is not an enforcement of any particular version of the article Alex Bakharev 05:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There must be consensus before any major changes can take place on this page. You withdrew the AfD, however, there was not consensus (as far as I can see) for the page to be repurposed as a disambiguation page. The closing admin said that consensus should first be reached on this talk page. Cheers. --MZMcBride 19:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So basically we, all others but one person, are hostages to that persons unsubstantiated refusal?--Alexia Death 20:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: You revert the article multiple times from what was agreed by consensus in the AfD talk, then go silent and offer no justification, explanation, debate or discussion on this talk page. No cites, no references, nothing to support the existance of "Estland" as defined in this article. Just silence. What's up guys? Martintg 06:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, simplest explanation is that they don't have any sources - which seems to be the case, indeed. DLX 10:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where are you [[User:Irpen|Irpen]] and [[User:Petri Krohn|Krohn]]? 

message: Esthland was a feodal state ruled by the Baltic German nobility, organized as the Estländische Ritterschaft. (See ) It maintained its separate identity from its southern neighbour Livonia (Livland) for a total of 698 years. Both Livonia and Esthland were ruled as possessions by a number of foreign powers. These rulers never changed the feodal nature of Esthland or changed its borders.
Esthland is not the same as modern Estonia. Estonia in its modern borders was only created as the Autonomous Governorate of Estonia, after the Russian February Revolution of 1917, by joining northern Livonia to Esthonia (then called the Reval Governorate). In 1916 most Estonians lived in Livonia.
The name seems to be an issue. Some pre-1917 English language sources refer to this entity as Esthonia, while others call it Esthland, Estland or Eastland. I am open to suggestions on a better name. I was considering the name Estonia proper along the lines of Finland Proper, but a Google search reveals that it mostly is used to refer to fixed line telephone service in Estonia.
-- Petri Krohn 01:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From there:
DLX 09:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is exactly what I am saying, Estonia does not equal Estland just because the German name for Estonia today happens to be Estland, so? Er, I can actually provide links which call Livonia (including the part inhabited by Estonians!) "Latvia" during the period before 1918. Note too that this Sozietät, dealing only with the part of Estonia that had been Livonia continued its existence after Estonia's unification. Funnily, if we get at its statutes we may not even be allowed to put them here because of copyright laws...--Pan Gerwazy 09:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All points you have shown are clear reasons why this page should be dab page and not an article on its own.--Alexia Death 10:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Keep as an article

message: Estland is Danish/German , for Estonia, just like Russland is Danish/German , for Russia.
Petri's synthesis not supported by the sources, other pages Danish Estonia, Swedish Estonia and Revel Governorate already exist covering the same region. Esthland = Old German spelling. Esthland = Reval Governorate, Swedish Estonia, first subordinate to Sweden then subordinate to Russia. Feudal nature changed significantly in transistion from Swedish to Russian rule. Your link  shows spelling Estonia, not Esthland. Estländische Ritterschaft just a redirect to Estland created five minutes ago . Suggest expand Estländische Ritterschaft into article, but with English spelling ofcourse.
Estland (disambiguation) was speedily deleted since it originally was a duplicate of this page, but since undeleted by request of Petri Krohn. Accusations of circumvention the result of a "failed" AfD is an assumption of bad faith, in fact AfD was withdrawn in good faith due to the originator being led to believe there was consensus to keep and turn into disambiguation. Martintg 02:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Martintg per all arguments listed. This article is a bizare construct. The page should be either a dab or a redirect to dab, as for some languages this still means plain and simple Estonia.--Alexia Death 05:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disambig is the way to go. Original version was created by a permbanned user, it didn't quote any valid sources - and actually didn't even mention, that Estland is name of Estonia in several languages. All contents exists in more depth in relevant articles - current stubs just duplicate them. WP:NAME and WP:UE are very good points as well. DLX 20:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Make it disambig

message: In the beginning of the Second Millennium, there lived a people in the region what now is Estonia, and they called themselves Ests.  A bit more to the south lived another people, and they called the sand on their beaches Liiv.
The Danes, being on a military rise, sought to expand their holdings and tried to conquer the lands in question.  Unfortunately, their military tactics were problematic in continental areas, and they weren't able to hold onto the Southern areas, nor even what now is Southern Estonia.  These areas came to be ruled by various other powers.
Over time, other powers replaced the Danes, but the old military control line remained.  The northern areas came to be known as Estland, after the Ests who lived there.  The southern areas came to be known as Livland, after the sand that was on its beaches.  Later, even the people came to be called Livlanders or Livonians.
Thus, Estland meant 'the land of the Ests', and 'the administrative region that was once controlled by Danes'.  These were different concepts, but they were also a same concept.  Except regarding what now is Southern Estonia, of course.
In late 19th century, ideas of national unity started to rise among Estonians, and Latvians.  Livonians were already on decline; some of them were, or became Estonians; others were, or became Latvians.  Because there were a lot of Estonians and a lot of Latvians in Southern Estonia and Northern Livonia, many cities there had distinct names in both Estonian and Latvian.  For example, the now Latvian city Cēsis can also be considered a former Estonian city Võnnu.  The city of Valga (Estonian) aka Valka (Latvian) is now considered a double city; administratively, half of it is a city in Estonia and another half is a city in Latvia.  The river of Gauja was Koiva for Estonians, and so on.
In the maelstrom of revolutionary thought that was the Russian revolution of 1917, the national forefathers of both Estonia and Livonia saw it fit, and the rulers in Russia saw it not worth objecting, to rectify the ancient discrepancy between military zones of control and regions of ethnic domination.  A new border was constructed south of the old border, with the deliberate plan that most ethnic Estonians would remain north of the border, and most ethnic Latvians would remain south of the border.  With very few exceptions, this new inter-governiya line became the later Estonian-Latvian border.
Nothing really changed in a revolutionary manner due to this reorganisation.  The revolution came only later, when the even more complicated times motivated the local government of Estonia, now formally Autonomous Governorate of Estonia, to go for declaring independence.
However, the discrepancy had gone.  'The land of Estonians', and 'the land called Estonia' now meant pretty much one and the same.
Thus, it is obvious that Estland ought to redirect to Estonia.  However, given the former discrepancy, it merits disambiguation between the main earlier administrative regions of that name as well as a mention that Estland is the name of Estonia in Germanic languages.  The list of these older administrative regions should be echoed at the page of Estonia where it would clearly be of historical significance, and it should be elaborated on History of Estonia.  Most of the regions involved have their own main articles by now, though.
There is no semantic difference between Estonia and Estland.  Estland is merely the Germanic name for Estonia.  Estonia is merely the English (and Russian, as it came) name for Estland.  Because this is English Wikipedia, the main content regarding Estonia should be at Estonia, and Estland shouldn't be its duplicate.  Because there's an usage frequency difference, it may be useful to not make Estland mere redirect but a disambiguation page. Digwuren 10:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A humble suggestion of a comprehensive plan 

message: Delete or merge the current content to other article and move the content of Estland (disambiguation) to this name.
* Merge current content to History of Estonia and to Reval Governorate.--Staberinde 09:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete/Merge 

message: Keep the current content here and the dab page at Estland (disambiguation).
*I would like the content to be expanded, potentially it could be a fine article about the Noble Order and their dominion Alex Bakharev 13:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: that would require complete rewrite. This is about a territory, the Order was an organization. However I would not mind if anything  found worthy is merged in to the article about order. As long as it is understood that it still would be just that, a merge. --Alexia Death 20:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would also require a new name too. I suggest Baltic Noble Corporation to also include the other medieval corporations. Martintg 08:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keep