Talk:Imamate in Twelver doctrine

message: Shi'a Imam is basicly the same topic, any reason for not merging? --Striver 03:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I say delete and redirect immediately. This is very redundant and POV. Cuñado  - Talk 17:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Rename Imamah into Imamah (Shi'a twelver Islam) so it corresponds to Imamah (Shi'a Ismaili doctrine), then rename Shi'a Imam into Imamah (Shi'a Islam), change the redirect that Imamah is by then into a redirect to Imamah (disambig):
*Imamah -> Imamah (disambig) - (not existing now)
**Imamah (Shi'a doctrine) - (presently Shi'a Imam)
**Imamah (Shi'a twelver doctrine) - (presently Imamah)
**Imamah (Shi'a Ismaili doctrine)
--Striver 19:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: Here is some twelver sources about the Imamah. I dont know how to fit them in into the article, so i will post them here and hope that somebody will make them fit in.
* Rejection of Imamah is kufr, just as rejection of Nubuwwah (prophethood) is kufr (1) 
* Imamah is a universal grace (lutf ‘amm) while Nubuwwah (prophethood) is a special grace (lutf khass), because it is possible that a specific period in time can be void of a living Nabi, while the same is not true for the Imam. To reject the universal grace is worse than to reject the special grace (2)
* Imamah is a divine station, just like Nubuwwah. Just as Allah chooses whomsoever He wants to for Nubuwwah and Risalah ... similarly, for Imamah too, He selects whomsoever He wishes. (3)
* The Imams possess more knowledge than the Prophets (4)
* The Imams know about the past, the present and the future (5)
* The Imams know when they will die, and they die only by their choice (6)
** 1) Stated by: Abu Ja‘far at-Tusi, called Shaykh at-Ta’ifah (died 460AH)in Talkhis ash-Shafi vol. 4 p. 131 (Dar al-Kutub al-Islamiyyah, Qum, 3rd ed. 1394)
** 2) Stated by: Ibn Mutahhar al-Hilli (died 726AH) in al-Alfayn p. 3 (al-Maktabah al-Haydariyyah, Najaf, 3rd ed. 1388)
** 3) Stated by: Allamah Muhammad Husayn Kashif al-Ghita in Asl ash-shia wa-Usuluha p. 58 (Mu’ssasat al-A‘lami, Beirut)
** 4) Stated by: ‘Allamah Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi in Bihar al-Anwar vol. 26 pp. 194-200
** 5) Muhammad Yaqoub Al-Kulayni in Usul Al-Kafi vol. 1:260
** 6) Muhammad Yaqoub Al-Kulayni in Usul Al-Kafi vol. 1:258
:::can someone clarify these facts? It seems to me that the Shia Imamah doctrines regard that the Imams are more divine than prophet himself. Shouldn't the muslims regard the prophet especially the prophet Muhammad as the most divine people? Pejuang bahasa 17:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Twelver sources about the Imamah 

message: anon has tried to argue against the shia idea of Imamah in this article. In this article, we should focus on presenting and explaining the Shia doctrine of Imamah, not argue for it nor argue against it. Please refrain from doing this, this is not ShiaChat.com. However, feel free to visit the mentioned site if you like to discuss the Shia doctrine of Imamah. Have a nice day. Hamid-Masri 11:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguments deleted 

message: I prefer to have it as Imamate (Twelver Shi`i Doctrine). I once learned in school that every word in a title should be capitalized; Imamah (Shi'a twelver doctrine). M.K.Muhammadi (talk) 02:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename Article 

message: :: I suggest a new structure for the article.
#The Concept of Imamah
#The Necessity of Imamah
##Theological Aspect 
###The Station of Imams
###Imam as Mediator
###Imam as Wali 
###Imam as Hujjah
##Political Aspect 
#Necessary Attributes of Imams
##Appointment by Allah (Nass)
##Ismah 
##Hikmah (widom) 
##Superiority (Afdaliyyah)
#The necessity of Recognizing Imams
#The necessity of obeying Imams
##Guidance is only Through Imams
#Argument by Quran
#Argument by Hadith
#Argument by Reason
#History of the Concept of Imamah
Salman mahdi (talk) 12:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Good idea. Ideology has negative connotation. Instead, we can say "Theological aspect" and "Political aspect". We should add "Imam as Hujjat" under Theological aspect. Let's ask @User:Kazemita1 to join us.--Seyyed(t-c) 07:56, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Seyed's suggestion that "theological aspect" is probably a better choice.--Kazemita1 (talk) 00:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

text: Same with me.--Kazemita1 (talk) 23:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

text: Salaam alaykom. I think some of the titles should change. I can't understand how we can have titles such as 'Necessity of Imamah' when we're writing for an encyclopedia! Mhhossein (talk) 17:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Wa Alaykum Assalaam. Even when writing for a secular encyclopedia, there is benefit in describing inner religious beliefs and traits. For example, a secular reader might want to know why in the first place Shia's think Imamate is necessary. Hope that helps.--Kazemita1 (talk) 23:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  "The Necessity of Imamah" relates to the theological belief that there should be always an alive Imam on the earth. I think it is too important in Shia theology that deserves a separate section. However the title may not be clear enough and make misunderstanding.--Seyyed(t-c) 18:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: A New Sructure

message: How much do we pay attention to Walayah?Salman mahdi (talk) 16:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As I proposed before, we'd better have a separate article for Walayah! meanwhile, we should mention this topic briefly here. Mhhossein (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Wilayah

message: user:Kazemita1,user:Mhhossein,user:Salman mahdi,user:Faizhaider; As you may know there are a range of interpretation of Imamate Doctrine from Zahir to Batin. In one side, some scholars emphasize on sociopolitical guardianship (Wilayah) as well as instructing and promoting Fiqh by the Imams. On the other hand, some scholars focus on spiritual role and esoteric guidance as well as existential guardianship (Wilayah) of Imams. The later one can be found in Henry Corbin's History of Islamic philosophy which follows Sayyid Haydar Amuli and while the former one is available in Musa Sadr's criticism on the Arabic translation of that book. There is also an interpretation which tries to gather both of them like Ruhollah Khomeini's ideas. Due to NPOV policy of wikipedia, we should cover all of these ideas, while this article as well as Twelve Imams tend to the esoteric interpretation. I'd like to know your ideas.--Seyyed(t-c) 08:20, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You have my blessing. Go ahead and add the content.--Kazemita1 (talk) 07:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Ideas of Ayatollah Khomeini to best of my knowledge are largely revolving around Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists which are not related to this article as far as I know. But since you asked they can be found here.--Kazemita1 (talk) 15:51, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Esoteric and exoteric interpretation of Imamat Doctrine among Shias

message: The names of the Imams is repeated two times. One of them must be deleted, which one?Salman mahdi (talk) 18:55, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Repetitions

message: I think that this table is related to Twelve Imams ( we can give the link) and we can bring the name of Imams according to, for example, hadith of Lawh.Hum?--Salman mahdi (talk) 13:20, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do you mean to replace the table with a less space consuming stuff? Mhhossein (talk) 17:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I mean to delete the table and to replace a hadith.--Salman mahdi (talk) 13:23, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: The Table of Imams

message: #There is a quotation in the middle but it is unclear which parts are actual quotation and which are not.
#What does "The prophetic mission must be followed by a keeper of the Quran because it contains esoteric depth, superficial contradictions and hidden meaning" mean?
#It then says, "Divine knowledge is only attainable through divine revelation or inspiration", but the Lead says, "The Imam is not the recipient of a divine revelation ..." which looks contradictory.  I think this needs clarifying for sake of the general reader. 
#"Divine law" is wikilinked to Sharia, but is sharia really "divine" law, i.e. is "divine" really the right word there?
#What is "walayah" in the last line? ~ P-123 (talk) 19:51, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions on section 2, "The Necessity of Imamah"

message: How is this edit an improvement on what it replaces?  The grammar is bad and the meaning is unclear.  
Under "Political aspect", it says, "Although Imam has a political role, but his Imamah does not depend on his getting this role.[47] the political According to the verse 5:55, because the absolute authority belongs to Allah, He can grant this authority to whomever He wishes as Guardians. Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr believes that the political and spiritual dimensions are inseparable." This does not make sense. ~ P-123 (talk) 17:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  With thanks,
# You can correct it.
# One of the roles of the imams is the political leadership of the community, but it is not the foundation of Imamah, that is if imam be not the leader, he be not imam; he can be imam and be not the leader of the society. As God is the creator of the world, He is the real Owner of the world, so the authority of the world belongs to Him and He can give this authority to whomever He desires; so He desires to choose the imams as His authorities over the community. Is it clear?--Salman mahdi (talk) 14:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit

message: As the names of Imamah and Imamate are synonyms and these different names confuse the readers, the name of the article should be changed to Imamah.Salman mahdi (talk) 06:33, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming

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