Talk:Logan Fontenelle

message: The article is close to a B. The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee (Talk) 16:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: I see no relation between Logan Fontenelle and the founding of Bellevue.  His father Lucien Fontenelle, a fur trader, sold Fontenelle's Post to the US government, which used it as headquarters of an Indian agency for some time. This may have helped develop the later Bellevue, but even that is unclear. Took out the reference.Parkwells (talk) 04:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Pure speculation: Was Logan's job as the interpreter at Bellevue consequential of his father's sale of the post to the US government? Or vice versa: Did the sale of the post happen because of Logan's role with the government? In the Fontenelle's Post article it sounds like the former, but I want to make sure it's not the latter. Your citations are showing that Fontenelle's legend was clearly inflated. Is this conjecture part of that inflation? • Freechildtalk 23:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Bellevue

message: Parkwells, congrats on your spectacular edits this morning. Just to let you know, you're treading on controversial ground- although I'm sure you're finding that in your research. I hope the literature does speak to the controversy, which revolves around the perceptions of Logan's tribal membership and chiefdom. To my understanding, there is a belief among the Omahas that Logan was a member, but the academic community and non-Omaha history scholars have thrown uncertainty in this conversation. However, the tribe itself is not even in clear agreement within the tribe about whether or not he was within the tribe. Academic scholars are closer to agreeing that he was, but non-academic historians don't agree. Your research is slanting against both those argument, but I don't have time to dig otherwise right now. Just wanted to give you another perspective... • Freechildtalk 17:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I figured it was controversial, but what is interesting is that in 1917-1919, when Gilmore published his article (and he had 2 or 3 more in that issue), he wrote that among the Omaha he had talked with, who were living when Fontenelle was alive and the events took place, they consistently said he was not chief and did not know why the whites had elevated him. You should read it; he has quite a lengthy statement about it being unfortunate to mistakenly honor people of the past. It appears that LaFlesche was a much more substantial character - certainly his children made him proud.  Gilmore had the details of the names of the seven chiefs known to have gone to DC for the sale (from more than one source), and I believe that Boughter relied on his work. In addition, he said only Fontenelle's family contended he could have been chief by his maternal line. He had more detailed material in the article about the gens/clan structure of the tribe, which at the time of Fontenelle were still strong, controlling traditional structures: there were two half-tribes and each had five gens. LaFlesche became chief because Big Elk adopted him, named him as his successor and trained him. Also, Gilmore is consistent with the 1889 Bancroft Journal account, closer in time to the events. The "white man" quote came from an Omaha who had been hunting with the group when they were attacked, and Fontenelle was killed. I'd never seen such a statement before, but it helps explain continuing divisions among half-bloods and full-bloods (which are part of the near past and present at many places, including Pine Ridge Reservation, for instance.) Boughter is a contemporary academic, and Gilmore sounds as if he was highly trained. Boughter referred to the confusing accounts, but also provides the details of the chiefs at the treaty-signing.Parkwells (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is drawing back around to the Nemaha Half-Breed Reservation and that whole phenomenon of providing segregated spaces that enshrined and/or acknowledged the valid but disputed identities of non-"whole blood" Indians, isn't it? Fascinating. I LOVE THE TENSION of history Parkwells- it excites me. • Freechildtalk 20:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it is exciting- was going to look at the Half-Breed Tract again, too. The identity was disputed on both sides, it seems, and/but some of the mixed-race families accomplished great things - like the La Flesche children. There were similar issues and families in Canada.  Read more in Boughter - apparently at the time of Fontenelle's death, both the Indian agent George Hepner (who replaced Gatewood in 1854) and LaFlesche referred to him as a chief, but maybe that was for their own purposes, and continuing to try to keep the 1854 treaty validated; other Omaha at the time dismissed him as "the interpreter, the white man." It is fascinating.Parkwells (talk) 15:21, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wowwwwwwwwwww. I wonder how the half-breed reservations in other areas assigned their membership? Fascinating. • Freechildtalk 16:42, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logan's legitimacy 

message: Parkwells, I took the liberty of adding section headings where I thought it was most appropriate. I hope you will adjust them as you see fit. • Freechildtalk 23:21, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section headings 

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thread_title:  External links modified