Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche 2/Proposed decision

message: Whenever there is a finding of sockpuppetry, isn't there usually a clause added to the "findings of fact" or "remedies" sections to the effect of "All decisions apply to the user or any sockpuppets he creates"? --Carnildo 19:15, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing boilerplate

message: ===Cberlet===
These comments really bother me:
:Fred Bauder </wiki/User:Fred_Bauder> 03:50, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC) Does not take into account POV warriors on the other side and places decision in the hands of the majority of the editors editing a particular article. 
:Fred Bauder </wiki/User:Fred_Bauder> 03:50, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC) Need to add the anti activists such as Chip Berlet also 
Simply because I try to edit LaRouche pages to be more balanced and reflect the majority view of serious journalists and scholars concerning LaRouche I am transformed into a "POV Warrior" and one of the "anti activists?" What evidence is there that this is the case? As others have pointed out, this is not a symmetrical case. I repeatedly invited Herschelkrustofsky and Weed Harper to join in a collective editing of the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche page after it was protected, and suggested we all agree to stop editing the other LaRouche related pages until we achieved an edit that was acceptable. This suggestion was repeatedly rejected.
I understand the idea of writing for encyclopedias 
====My print encyclopedia entries====
*Chip Berlet. 2003. “Apocalypticism,” “Report from Iron Mountain,” “Scaife, Richard Mellon,” “Secular Humanism.” Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia. Peter Knight, ed. Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO
*_______. 2003. “Ku Klux Klan.” Encyclopedia of Religion and War. Gabriel Palner Fernandez, ed. (Berkshire Reference Works; Routledge encyclopedias of religion and society). New York: Routledge.
*_______. 2002. “Surveillance Abuse.” Encyclopedia of Crime and Punishment. David Levinson, ed., (Berkshire Reference Works). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications.
*_______. 2001. “Apocalypse,” “Nativism,” “Devil and Satan,” and “The Illuminati.” Encyclopedia of Fundamentalism. Brenda Brasher, ed., (Berkshire Reference Works; Routledge encyclopedias of religion and society). New York: Routledge
*_______ (associate editor). 2000. “Apocalypse,” “Conspiracism,” “Demagogues,” “Demonization,” “Militia Movements,” “Populism,” “Survivalism,” Totalitarianism,” and “Year 2000.” Encyclopedia of Millennialism and Millennial Movements. Richard A. Landes, ed., (Berkshire Reference Works; Routledge encyclopedias of religion and society). New York: Routledge.
====I respect the Wikipedia ethos====
I came to Wikipedia as an editor enthusiastic about the idea of the collective editing of a quality source of information available to the public. A check of my contributions shows that my interests are not limited to the LaRouche-related pages.. On many other pages I have been involved in the collective editing process in a non-confrontational manner. 
====Critical analysis of LaRouche is appropriate====
I call LaRouche a fascist because, based on my research, that is what he is. This is not POV Warrior rhetoric. I write scholarly articles on fascist and neo-fascist movements with a special focus on their conspiracism. Here are some examples:
* Chip Berlet. (2004). “Mapping the Political Right: Gender and Race Oppression in Right-Wing Movements.” In Abby Ferber, ed, Home-Grown Hate: Gender and Organized Racism. New York: Routledge.
*_______. (2004). “Anti-Masonic Conspiracy Theories: A Narrative Form of Demonization and Scapegoating.” In Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris, eds., Freemasonry in Context: History, Ritual, Controversy. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
*_______. (2003). “Terminology: Use with Caution.” Fascism. Vol. 5, Critical Concepts in Political Science, Roger Griffin and Matthew Feldman, eds. New York, NY: Routledge.
Please do not let frustration with this matter blur your vision as to what is going on.  I respectfuly ask that folks reconsider the idea that I should be banned from editing pages relating to LaRouche.--Cberlet 05:09, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV Warriors or Serious Journalists & Researchers?

message: These comments really bother me:
:Fred Bauder </wiki/User:Fred_Bauder> 03:50, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC) Does not take into account POV warriors on the other side and places decision in the hands of the majority of the editors editing a particular article. 
:Fred Bauder </wiki/User:Fred_Bauder> 03:50, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC) Need to add the anti activists such as Chip Berlet also 
Simply because I try to edit LaRouche pages to be more balanced and reflect the majority view of serious journalists and scholars concerning LaRouche I am transformed into a "POV Warrior" and one of the "anti activists?" What evidence is there that this is the case? As others have pointed out, this is not a symmetrical case. I repeatedly invited Herschelkrustofsky and Weed Harper to join in a collective editing of the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche page after it was protected, and suggested we all agree to stop editing the other LaRouche related pages until we achieved an edit that was acceptable. This suggestion was repeatedly rejected.
I understand the idea of writing for encyclopedias 
====My print encyclopedia entries====
*Chip Berlet. 2003. “Apocalypticism,” “Report from Iron Mountain,” “Scaife, Richard Mellon,” “Secular Humanism.” Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia. Peter Knight, ed. Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO
*_______. 2003. “Ku Klux Klan.” Encyclopedia of Religion and War. Gabriel Palner Fernandez, ed. (Berkshire Reference Works; Routledge encyclopedias of religion and society). New York: Routledge.
*_______. 2002. “Surveillance Abuse.” Encyclopedia of Crime and Punishment. David Levinson, ed., (Berkshire Reference Works). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications.
*_______. 2001. “Apocalypse,” “Nativism,” “Devil and Satan,” and “The Illuminati.” Encyclopedia of Fundamentalism. Brenda Brasher, ed., (Berkshire Reference Works; Routledge encyclopedias of religion and society). New York: Routledge
*_______ (associate editor). 2000. “Apocalypse,” “Conspiracism,” “Demagogues,” “Demonization,” “Militia Movements,” “Populism,” “Survivalism,” Totalitarianism,” and “Year 2000.” Encyclopedia of Millennialism and Millennial Movements. Richard A. Landes, ed., (Berkshire Reference Works; Routledge encyclopedias of religion and society). New York: Routledge.
====I respect the Wikipedia ethos====
I came to Wikipedia as an editor enthusiastic about the idea of the collective editing of a quality source of information available to the public. A check of my contributions shows that my interests are not limited to the LaRouche-related pages.. On many other pages I have been involved in the collective editing process in a non-confrontational manner. 
====Critical analysis of LaRouche is appropriate====
I call LaRouche a fascist because, based on my research, that is what he is. This is not POV Warrior rhetoric. I write scholarly articles on fascist and neo-fascist movements with a special focus on their conspiracism. Here are some examples:
* Chip Berlet. (2004). “Mapping the Political Right: Gender and Race Oppression in Right-Wing Movements.” In Abby Ferber, ed, Home-Grown Hate: Gender and Organized Racism. New York: Routledge.
*_______. (2004). “Anti-Masonic Conspiracy Theories: A Narrative Form of Demonization and Scapegoating.” In Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris, eds., Freemasonry in Context: History, Ritual, Controversy. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
*_______. (2003). “Terminology: Use with Caution.” Fascism. Vol. 5, Critical Concepts in Political Science, Roger Griffin and Matthew Feldman, eds. New York, NY: Routledge.
Please do not let frustration with this matter blur your vision as to what is going on.  I respectfuly ask that folks reconsider the idea that I should be banned from editing pages relating to LaRouche.--Cberlet 05:09, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cberlet

message: I call LaRouche a fascist because, based on my research, that is what he is. This is not POV Warrior rhetoric. I write scholarly articles on fascist and neo-fascist movements with a special focus on their conspiracism. Here are some examples:
* Chip Berlet. (2004). “Mapping the Political Right: Gender and Race Oppression in Right-Wing Movements.” In Abby Ferber, ed, Home-Grown Hate: Gender and Organized Racism. New York: Routledge.
*_______. (2004). “Anti-Masonic Conspiracy Theories: A Narrative Form of Demonization and Scapegoating.” In Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris, eds., Freemasonry in Context: History, Ritual, Controversy. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
*_______. (2003). “Terminology: Use with Caution.” Fascism. Vol. 5, Critical Concepts in Political Science, Roger Griffin and Matthew Feldman, eds. New York, NY: Routledge.
Please do not let frustration with this matter blur your vision as to what is going on.  I respectfuly ask that folks reconsider the idea that I should be banned from editing pages relating to LaRouche.--Cberlet 05:09, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Critical analysis of LaRouche is appropriate

message: Dear Arbcom,
Editing should not be an adversarial effort. HK and his sockpuppets/coworkers/roommates have turned it into a battle. I personally do not think that I've acted as a warrior, or even as someone who has expressed a POV in this matter. I only became involved in editing the LaRouche series after I saw the mess that the articles were in. I have written one article in the LaRouche series from scratch, California Proposition 64 (1986), which is a short, comprehensive article of which I am proud and which elicited no controversy. And I substantially re-wrote three biographies, Amelia Boynton Robinson, Janice Hart, and Frederick Wills, and I propose that all three are better than the efforts of the previous editions based on LaRouche-only material with attendent edits and counter-edits. They, too, have been non-controversial. I have removed plagiarized, copyrighted materials, and LaRouche links and theories, as allowed by a ruling of the Arbitration Committee. 
I believe that the other editors involved have sought to be fair and patient. While journalist Chip Berlet may have a history of reporting negative aspects of the LaRouche movement, user:Cberlet has been a fair and largely NPOV editor. I think that user:SlimVirgin deserves a St. George Barnstar for single-handledly preventing HK from writing fantasy biographies and histories. I am still too new in to editing this series to name the editors who have dropped out, but I doubt that any of them came with a strong anti-LaRouche POV either. Despite what some people believe (see Weed Harper above), we are not part of an organized effort. On the contrary, it is HK and his gang who have apparently been working in concert.
Regarding proposed remedies. I hope the Arbcom members will examine the evidence that I've presented. On at least nine occasions material was copied verbatim from LaRouche websites into non-LaRouche articles (along with many additions of external links, internal links, and factoids).  When other editors have removed the material HK has attacked them for violating NPOV rules (he still does this, see above). I didn't find a single case in which the other editors were aware of the verbatim copying, and in several articles the material was still there. Altogether there were dozens of articles that had LaRouche text, theories, or links added in the last year, before and after the August ban, all done by HK and his terminal-sharing editors. I reiterate all of this to say that I hope whatever sanction is placed on this editor fully addresses the problem of LaRouche POV material being added to non-LaRouche articles. It is easier to handle an editor with a strong POV within the small LaRouche series than in the many, seemingly unrelated, articles where the other editors, if any, are not aware of the LaRouche theory being promoted, or even of the real source of the text being added. Also, I don't see a plagiarism policy, and the text is often short enough that copyright policies probably wouldn't apply. I believe it is a practice which should be stopped, especially on the part of this editor. 
Respectfully, -Willmcw 06:29, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Willmcw...Another non-warrior

message: Herschelkrustofsky said in his defense or counterclaim that I alleged Herschel/Weed Harper inserted fantasy claims into the Wikipedia, but I had produced no examples. I have therefore added an example to my evidence regarding a LaRouche claim to have developed a proposal for a Eurasian Land Bridge which, he says, he regularly discusses with world leaders. No reference to this proposal or the international discussions has been found outside LaRouche publications. The new evidence is here.  SlimVirgin 23:16, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
:I am reproducing this post by Weed Harper from Talk: Eurasian Land-Bridge, which disproves SlimVirgin's accusations:
::Attn. Fred and Thue: I have found references to the Eurasian Land-Bridge proposal on the web, in press accounts from Hong Kong , India  and  , and Japan . None of these media are affiliated with LaRouche, so how do you reconcile this with your view that it is "original research"? And Thue, LaRouche and his colleagues have been promoting this proposal all over the world for 12 years. If it is your belief that LaRouche has "no involvement," please tell me who the real author of the proposal is. Weed Harper 20:09, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: --HK 16:08, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is not the concept of a Eurasian Land-Bridge (road/railroad) but whether or not LaRouche developed a specific proposal that is discussed by world leaders. There is no dispute that this general idea is discussed, as it has been for decades, as a modern replacement for the Silk Road. The claim that LaRouche plays any significant role in this discussion has been posted on Wikipedia from LaRouche-related websites. Outside of these LaRouche-related websites, what evidence exists for the claim that LaRouche plays a role in discussions with world leaders about the Eurasian Land Bridge? Not on two of the links posted above by Herschelkrustofsky/Weed Harper. (one link did not work for me).--Cberlet 17:50, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Eurasian Land Bridge

message: *On  29 Oct 2004, HK created the King O'Malley article, and on 4 Nov 2004 he pasted verbatim text from a copyrighted LaRouche site () into it. Dif -Google cache. Some of the text is purported quotes from the subject, but which have no source other than a LaRouche article. The text of the article was the subject of an intense and unproductive editing effort with AC, in which the same text was reinserted over and over. 
*On 3 Dec 2004, HK wrote on the talk page:
:Adam, you have repeatedly deleted the following information from this article:
::disputed blocks of text cited.
:Are you disputing the accuracy of these items, or are you making an ostentatious display of contempt :for the Wikipedia NPOV policy? --Herschelkrustofsky 21:47, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: King O'Malley

message: I'd like to think that Willmcw is doing me a favor here, by demonstrating the somewhat obsessive nature of the Jihad being waged by the anti-LaRouche faction. The two items being contested in the King O'Malley article are a reference to the fact that O'Malley campaigned to elect James Garfield as President of the U.S., and a direct quote from O'Malley. These are presented as evidence of a vast conspiracy to insert LaRouche POV. This is probably Adam Carr's contention as well, although he has never taken the trouble to explain his deletion of this material. --HK 15:49, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, HK, this is not about whether O'Malley campaigned for Garfield. This is about whether you've been violating the August 2004 prohibtion on edit wars over LaRouche material. You reproduced a purported O'Malley quote from an article in the Executive Information Review, including ellisions, with no reference as to the source, which appears to be an effort to hide the source. You copied other material as well, including O'Malley's supposed interest in the American System, some of which you paraphrased and some copied verbatim. And most importantly, when another editor removed it, you reinserted it again and again. Regarding O'Malley and Garfield, Google finds only two webpages that have both names in them - both are LaRouche sites. Google search Can you provide us with the non-LaRouche reference that you used to support your quotes and your Garfield factoid and if you can, why haven't you cited that material before? -Willmcw 19:17, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Response from HK

message: Is the POV parole running concurrently with the LaRouche ban, or consecutively? Because if it's concurrent, why bother with it, given the fact that his classical music edits are unobjectionable. Snowspinner 16:01, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
:It is not a "fact" that HK's classical music edits are unobjectionable. The LaRouche movement has many strongly held, idiosyncratic concepts about music. I'm not sure I follow your overall point, but if the premise is that HK can be trusted to edit music articles without inserting LaRouche material, then I dispute that "fact". -Willmcw 23:07, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's concurrent.  If there are no non-neutral edits on non-LaRouche articles then it's not needed, but will cause no hardship either.  -- sannse (talk) 00:24, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: One last clearing up

message: Does the prohibition on editing LaRouche-related articles extend to their talk pages too?  It is on the talk pages that Herschelkrustofsky has caused a lot of disruption. SlimVirgin 05:06, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
:I suggest editors of LaRouche related articles use the talk pages to obtain information and inside perspective regarding LaRouche and his activities. Herschelkrustofsky is a valuable resource for this. He needs to keep in touch anyway; he'll be back editing in just a year after all. Fred Bauder 13:26, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
If you allow Herschelkrustofsky to edit Talk pages, the disruption may continue as before. We don't need inside perspective from him for three reasons: First, as an encyclopedia, we can only use material that has been published, not Herschel's personal views. Secondly, he has several times over-stated what the LaRouche publications have said, even when he has supposedly been quoting from them, so he is not a reliable source. Third, we've had nearly 200,000 words of his perspective on Talk pages already, so we can probably live without more of it. SlimVirgin 13:37, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and fourth: I didn't mention this in my evidence, because I felt it probably wouldn't be needed, but he also managed to "lose" criticism of LaRouche on Talk pages when he archived. I found several sections that he had deleted instead of archiving; for example, he moved one talk section where LaRouche's Holocaust denial was discussed into a personal archive of his instead of into the regular one. SlimVirgin 13:37, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
:This may be my last edit, for reasons enunciated on my talk page. For some reason, I can't ignore this last example of SlimVirgin's remarkable vindictiveness and disingenuousness. As has been made abundantly clear to SlimVirgin on more than one occasion, I have never moved any talk page material into a "personal archive." After I had posted a list of NPOV objections on the talk page of the original LaRouche article, and then re-posted revised versions of the list as the article was modified, MyRedDice/Martin created a sub-section of Talk:Lyndon LaRouche as a discussion page for my objections. Martin asked that as each objection was resolved, that it be moved to a "closed issues" archive, and as of October 10, 2004, when the dispute was ended, all remaining objections and discussion thereof were moved to that archive (Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/The_Herschelkrustofsky_List/archive1), where they remain to this day. SlimVirgin, however, has repeated insinuated that I, not Martin, initiated this sub-section in order to hide something. 
:As far as any further participation on the talk pages by myself, I don't see much point in it. Honest editors who wish to check the accuracy of statements attributed to LaRouche may simply consult the numerous websites of the various LaRouche organizations. However, I anticipate that SlimVirgin, Cberlet and Willmcw will simply interpret this latest ArbCom decision as a license to use the LaRouche articles as a soapbox, and my participation on the talk pages would not deter them. --HK 15:45, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Query about talk pages