Talk:Solid Snake/Archive 2

message: When I totally rewrote this article, I placed the non-canon games in their place in the real-world order of release, instead of separating them. I think it's important to place them in their real-world historical place because they reflect the development of the character. Snake's Revenge, for example, is probably the furthest Snake went towards becoming a pastiche of action movie heroes; you start to see this trend reversing with MG2:SS, then you really first see a non-derivative character appear with MGS.
Additionally, Wikipedia isn't here to document the canon. Wikipedia is here to document the real world. There's a great tendency to pretend the non-canon games don't exist, or marginalize them; I don't really think we're here to tell the fictional life history of these characters, but instead describe their role in the real world. WP:WAF goes over why we should do this. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I only agree to a certain extend. I think the article should cover non-canon games, but only if they were originally established as canon and then retconned. Ghost Babel and the Metal Gear Ac!d games were  meant to be their own thing, seperated from the mainstream Metal Gear universe (much like how the Ultimate Marvel universe is different from the main Marvel universe), I think they should be covered seperately too. Snake's Revenge is abnormality. On one hand, it was meant to a canonical sequel to MG1 and then retconned. On the other hand, it was a pastiche and barely had any involvement from the original creator. Jonny2x4 05:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was hoping to break this article up by character design rather than focusing on strictly telling a canon story. How about sticking Snake's Revenge between MG and MG2 (Kojima claimed to like it, and that it influenced MG2), sticking MG:GB with MGS because the MG:GB blurb is short and the take on Snake is VERY similar to the MGS take, and setting MGA as a parallel development? I did that in the article, just now. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-canon games

message: if we're gonna use a render, I would prefer one from an actual Metal Gear game
By all means, then, provide one. In the meantime, it's the best clear image we have that shows what Solid Snake looks like in the MGS games. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Render vs. Shinkawa drawing

message: When I rewrote the article, I intentionally discarded most of the images. Right now, we have two Shinkawa images, two MGS4 images, and two early images to back up the pre-MGS Snake looking like action movie heroes. We only need one infobox image, then one of each the rest. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Specifically, can we please not use this, a massive image that is only questionably fair-use, when we have a much smaller, more-focused alternative from a press kit? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Decorative images

message: Please, no. Having a header for each game encourages editors to lengthen each section's plot summary, which we don't need. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He's a supporting character in that game, and has about 15 minutes on-screen after the Tanker chapter. Why does it need lengthening? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: That was quick. It doesn't need too much just a little bit more of why he was there (Aresenal, GW ect) (The Bread 07:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. Metal Gear Solid 2 can cover that. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you look at your descriptions of the other Metal Gear games they pretty much tell the reader why he was there (The Bread 08:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those games have fairly straightforward plots. MGS2, I dunno. If you can figure out how to describe what Snake was doing in MGS2 in a paragraph, go right ahead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: That's sweet man, i didn't even think about the whole Snake/Raiden thing, I was thinking also something about him going to get the Patriots but if you think that'll be a bit much i'll give it a miss. Otherwise i'm happy (The Bread 08:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go right ahead and take a crack at it; I just don't want to get bogged down in explaining a really twisted story that doesn't greatly involve Snake anyway, you know? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Headers for each game

message: None of these pictures are actually used in any game, and this particular design, the Shinkawa Snake, is indeed used in MGS, as well as MG:GB and MGS2, and form the basis for the MGS3 and MGA designs. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well no freaking duh! Of course, none of the pictures are used in-game. But these are all promotional character artworks/renders done during the release for each game, to represent how the character's looks in-game. The illustration in the infobox was a promotional character artwork done for MGS2. Even though they all use the same general design, there's still various slight differences between them. Solid Snake in MGS2 is slightly fatter than he was in MGS1 (who was designed after Van Damme with Christopher Walken's face), has a mullet and facial hair, and his sneaking suit in MGS2 is basically a watered-down version of the MGS1 suit. They may only be slight differences to you, but differences are still differences. Jonny2x4 15:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. Well, there you go then. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Caption

message: This is part of what I mean by focusing on a real-world perspective. I don't want to be pretending that pre-retcon versions of characters don't exist, or that non-canon games don't exist or weren't influential in the development of the character. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: His full name has always been Dr. Pettrovich Madnar in Metal Gear 2, even in the MSX2 version. Jonny2x4 05:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He's referred to as "Dr. Pettrovich" in the MSX version; he's only referred to as Madnar when they refer to his whole name. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken then. But in the MSX2 version of MG2, they already established Madnar as his true surname and only used Dr. Pettrovich out of custom from the first game. Jonny2x4 05:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, since we're talking about the 1990 version of the game right there, can we please use the 1990 name? The retcon is already mentioned. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Retcons

message: I don't get it, are you talking about his face? Because it's otherwise misleading and makes it sound like he looked like that in Metal Gear Solid 1, and he didn't. Maybe it needs to be reworded.--Snake Liquid 17:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox caption change 

message: The comparison image was added after a comment on the peer review, to justify the comparison of Michael Biehn to Solid Snake. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find the comparsion image to be rather distracting to the overall flow of the article. Sure, it justifies the text on the article, but as far as I know, this is the only article to do so. You don't see a comparison pic with Samuel L. Jackson in the Ultimate Nick Fury page. Nor Hakaider with Darth Vader. Why should it be different with Solid Snake? Jonny2x4 18:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because, unlike Ultimate Nick Fury and Hakaider, it was questioned that the comparison was something a reasonable adult could make. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, looking at all the references, Kojima has borrowed from a number of Hollywood action movies as a basis for his characters in the Metal Gear series. The comparsion is notable in light of that. --Mitaphane talk 08:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand all that, but is it really neccesary to include the comparison pic. Isn't it enough just mentioning it in the text? Jonny2x4 20:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Without the image, this is just going to recur, since I was incapable of finding a citable source on the subject. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really like it either, but I'll take AMiB's side on this one; I'd certainly prefer a cite in lieu of the image as well, but it's the only way to really prove the staggeringly obvious here. (P.S., I knew nothing about Darth Vader and Haikaider. It's also not mentioned at all on Vader's page. D'oh!) --SevereTireDamage 02:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If a cite can be found, I'd be good with ditching the comparison and replacing it with the game cover. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison image 

message: Seeing this on the PR  page I made a number of edits to this article.
*I edited minor typos (mispelling, etc.)
*Added a link to pastiche as Snake is a good example of this.
*Reworded a few sentences for grammar, and easier reading (The paragraph involving the success of the NES port is a good example of this).
*I removed two parenthetical bits regarding information from the game Metal Gear as the article should focus on the character Solid Snake and his story.
* Added the reference to OILIX
* Added reference to Meryl being Col. Campbell's Niece
* Added that Snake meets with a member of the resistance(not the vague "local resistance") in MG
* Removed reference to 1990 in MG2:SS paragraph. The MG2:SS article already contains that info.
* Removed "Despite the betrayal of Master Miller (revealed to be a disguised Liquid Snake), part of his radio support team," "Despite" would imply that this "betrayl" impeded Snake's elimination of the FOXHOUND members; it didn't. Also, Master Miller didn't betray anyone; he was killed and Liquid impersonated him.
--Mitaphane talk 15:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Series of Edits 

message: Hey, does someone have a good image of Solid Snake hiding in a cardboard box? I just realized we don't have an image of an iconic, albeit silly, recurring joke relating to Solid Snake. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could someone perhaps get a screen-grab from the SSBB trailer?  --SaturnYoshi 20:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow. That's the EXACT shot I was personally trying to find, but I couldn't find it. --SevereTireDamage 05:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No, I'm pretty sure that's from MGS 2, I remember the screenshot from long ago. Unfortunately, I don't know the source, though I do know there's definitely a higher-resolution version of that picture available somewhere, but I couldn't find it.  --SevereTireDamage 19:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's one that I found of the same screen shot.  http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/preview/mgs2add/screen13.jpg  --SaturnYoshi 21:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

text: SSBB was just a suggestion.  This screen shot definately serves its purpose.  --SaturnYoshi 06:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Aren't the links the source??  --SaturnYoshi 14:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When you upload an image, you need to say three things: where the image was originally published, who owns the image, and where you got the image. We've got who owns the image (Konami) and where you got the image, but where did it originally come from? It's clearly not a normal screenshot of gameplay, because there are no on-screen indicators and the camera angle is weird. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh.  My only guess is that it came from a trailer.  Now I wonder where said trailer can be found...  --SaturnYoshi 21:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cardboard box 

message: I still want to use this image as the infobox image over the current one. I've only uploaded the current image just to sastify the need of a render, but I think the artwork is much clearer looking than the current scan and I don't think it's too stylized compared to any in-game render (after all, these characters started out a sketches). I just don't see the need of using in-game renders at all. Jonny2x4 04:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another picture poll

message: And I have proof!  During the 2nd battle with Vulcan Raven in MGS1, if you call Master Miller twice, he divulges (in a bit of foreshadowing) that Snake is part Japanese, and Snake confirms it.
I'm saying we add a small note in his nationality that he is American and Japanese in origin.  But then again, part of being American is having ancestors from varying ethnic backgrounds so...maybe it doesn't really warrant a change.  Plus, he's a clone...
:According to the Metal Gear 2 manual, Solid Snake is of Japanese-British descent. Keep in mind that ethnicity and nationality are two completely different things. Solid Snake's nationality is still American. Jonny2x4 16:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What he said. Ethnicity is what countries you come from, such as Irish-American or English-African. We already knew Snake had partly Japanese heritage (or DNA, rather) because he is a clone of Big Boss. Nationality is simply affiliation. I may be of German, Mexican, and Irish descent (plus some English and French as well), but that doesn't mean I have anything to do with those countries. My nationality is American - I live in the US.
Damn good job of cleaning up the article, by the way. Village Baka 16:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm...good point.  Alright, then forget it.  And if you're complimenting me for cleaning up that MGS 1 article, then thanks.Stephen Mathis 11:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Snake is Japanese! 

message: I just watched the Making of MGS2 DVD and Kojima says that Dave and Hal are references to 2001:A Space Odyssey, why is this constantly removed
(The Bread 01:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it's fairly inane trivia. Has this fact ever been mentioned outside of a work directed by Kojima? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  David 

message: Maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's been confirmed that Snake's appearance in 4 is because of his clone cell degeneration.  Metal Gear Solid 3, I think, left the opening that perhaps the Snake in 4 is the one way back from 3, meaning he really would be an old(er) man.
:That's Big Boss in MGS3. He's dead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Snake's aged appearance in Metal Gear Solid 4

message: The following paragraph-
;;While Solid Snake does not appear in Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (save for a guest appearance in the Snake vs. Monkey minigame), Naked Snake, a new character who shares Solid Snake's appearance, voice actor (in both Japanese and English versions of the game), trademark bandana, and expertise in urban warfare and espionage, serves as the protagonist in his place.;;
It mentions Naked Snake as a "new" character. I'm going to change it to "new playable" character, as the character himself has been around as long as Solid Snake. Indeed these two are the first a player ever meets in the first Metal Gear. Adding the word playable doesn't blow the spoiler, if that's a concern. Onikage725 11:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick note

message: This may be picky but isn't Solid Snake also known as simply "Snake." He is almost always referred to by this name throughout the Metal Gear Solid games. I think "Snake" should be added to the "Also Known As" section of the infobox. 
There should be some type of acknowledgement of Solid Snake referred to as Snake for short. (FF7SquallStrife7 21:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Also Known As