Talk:3D Monster Maze

message: The article had included the following text:
:One of the earliest 3D games for the ZX81's successor, the ZX Spectrum, was Quicksilva's 3D Ant Attack (1983).
I've removed it since the NGS' own Escape, a 3D title, dates back to 1982.
BACbKA 22:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ant attack moved off the article page 

message: Looks much better, here are some more suggestions:
* Try merging paragraphs so that they are atleast three lines long. 
* The empty space in the Reviews section and right of the contents looks a bit awkward (wrong spelling i guess).
: Is it better now? BACbKA 12:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Expanded a bit with the speed tuning info. Nothing more to share :-) BACbKA 12:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

text: A positive-sum strategy advice added. Score as you please :-) BACbKA 21:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: No levels, just the maze, as described. I never played W3D myself, so I can't compare. I did put in some reviews clippings in order to try seducing the folks like you into trying it out :-) BACbKA 12:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

text: 3D Monster Maze was the most memorable game I ever played on a ZX81. However, that probably says more about the limited capabilities of the ZX81 than the game itself: still, if you happen to own a ZX81, I'd say it's must-have. I think I have a copy somewhere, though no idea whether the tape would even be readable today. Mark Grant 16:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll try asking the NGS folks. I'm also trying to discover the current copyright status of the game, as it seems non-trivial, too. BACbKA 12:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It certainly does! thank you very much. BACbKA 12:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some suggestions 

message: I made some grammar and prose changes to the article, someone should probably check to make sure I didn't change any meanings or the tone.  I wasn't able to do much with the Technology section as I know nothing about the game or the machine.  Furthermore, some of the Technology section might be considered fancruft, but again, I'm not familiar enough with the material to know.  I'm a bit confused by the last paragraph of the Game Overview section, particularly the "appeal" aspect of game over.  I think someone who is familiar with the game should work on it.  I also think it should be considered rearranging the order of the sections as they currently seem in order of least to most important.  --Polkapunk 23:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There. Thanks go to you and to Sean. I've stuck with his ordering (History then Technology) at this time. Feel free to comment/change. --BACbKA 22:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some changes and Questions 

message: The rectangular course positive-sum scoring advice in the Gameplay section was inspired by the request from User:deeptrivia above in his suggestions. However, as I had pointed out on his talkpage yesterday, it kind of has begun to stick out. Currently in the Gameplay section (talking on scoring), it still borders on going directly against the recommendation in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games#Organization to remember not to include player's guide or walkthrough material, although it is probably legitimate because of the scoring context... Should it be left there? removed? more explicitly tied to scoring? moved to a new Trivia section in the end?
--BACbKA 22:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A scoring strategy advice

message: The same wikiproject also cautions against using 2nd-person language, in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games#Style. However, as I wrote at User_talk:Natalinasmpf#2nd-person_language_rewording_of_3D_Monster_Maze (after an IRC talk about the 2nd person language and helpful insights from that user, that lead me to rewording the other paragraph using the 2nd person language in the article ), the remaining use of the 2nd-person language is a bit tricky to change because it would then be in disharmony with the cited in-game messages:
Current text:
:Points are awarded for each step made by the player any time the dinosaur is on an active hunt. Since the player runs faster then the beast, it is possible to accumulate a lot of points by running around in circles with the beast just a few steps behind. (This works the best if a large enough rectangular course with a wall straight ahead marking each turn is available. In such a case, you can just wait in the corner until the "Rex has seen you", verify which side of the corner he's coming from, and run away several steps along the other side. Rex will continue on to the corner (where he has seen you last), and see you again as soon as he reaches it. Meanwhile, you can run on to the next corner, and repeat the same trick). Points are also given upon successfully getting away through an exit and into another maze, thus collecting even more points playing there — until eaten.
--BACbKA 22:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Points are awarded for each step made by the player any time the dinosaur is on an active hunt. Since the player runs faster then the beast, it is possible to accumulate a lot of points by running around in circles with the beast just a few steps behind. (This works the best if a large enough rectangular course with a wall straight ahead marking each turn is available. In such a case, the player can just wait in the corner until getting the "Rex has seen you" mesage, verify which side of the corner the monster is coming from, and run away several steps along the other side. Rex will continue on to the corner (where he has seen the player last), and see him again as soon as he reaches it. Meanwhile, the player can run on to the next corner, and repeat the same trick). Points are also given upon successfully getting away through an exit and into another maze, thus collecting even more points playing there — until eaten.
Please comment on whether the transposed text sounds better, despite the disharmony between the outer text and the quoted messages, or whether the current one is fine.
--BACbKA 17:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Personally I like the 3rd person variant better. More encyclopedic. -- Frodet 20:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the 3rd person variant sounds a lot better, and as Frodet said, more encyclopedic. One of my biggest pet peeves around here is 2nd person speech in an article. Good job :) — Ilyanep (Talk) 17:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, the second variant (3rd-person) seems a lot better. "The player" is a bit repetitive, right enough, but even so, it's encyclopaedic this way. Nach0king 18:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2nd-person language

message: In his objection to the original FAC nomination, User:Cugel said he'd "like to see more shots", and that the article was generally short. Since then it has grown, and, to my taste, due to the limited number of various views in the game, it probably doesn't make sense to overdo that, in order not to stretch the "fair use". Still, here are the ideas for the things to possibly add:
* Search for a picturesque random maze with a "square" (rectangular free space), it looks really cool but is pretty rare.
* The teeth screen, mentioned in the review "Lee's peek'n'poke". That is an easy one :-) It also mentions the sentence/appeal thing.
:See :Image:3D-monster-maze-eaten.png, now in the article.
* Maybe a view of the BASIC source code listing, with the delay line in view and in the line editor buffer? (To illustrate the customization mentioned in the Tech). See also the usage of this image over at Sinclair BASIC.
thumbnail|Editing the busy-waiting loop to minimize the input wait in the game.
:I've requested assistance with proper (C) tagging of this image over at Wikipedia talk:Image copyright tags
* The "ANYONE THERE?" suddenly appearing after the long long long load wait. And if we're talking about multimedia, an audio file generated from the tape, to illustrate the loading noise (not the whole 7 minutes, for sure :-) )
* REX at various steps away. Maybe even make an animation out of these. Stretches the fair use IMHO, although I've seen such an animation somewhere on the net.
: the animation as described above can be seen in the palm screen on the zx81/palm site (see the links) (later note, BACbKA 08:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great job! I feel that any of most of those are fine: The free-space maze, the teeth screen, REX. I'm not sure about the animations, though. As long as it's encycolpedic, anything goes. -- Frodet 20:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More screenshots

message: Thanks to everybody who helped making this a featured article!!! (Background music from 3DMAZE playing ;-) ). --BACbKA 07:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  We did it! 

message: It turns out that the Neverwinter Nights review by nach0king (see the article References) is written by our own User:nach0king (he's just told me via the talk page). :-) Small world... I'm not cross-referencing it off the main article page, however, to avoid self-referencing in WP. --BACbKA 12:29, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  nach0king 

message: Perhaps worth mentioning as part of critical acclaim, but in this months Edge Magazine UK, there is a large article (2-3 pages) regarding 3dMM (the 2 games recieving a retrospective this month are 3dMM and Radiant Silvergun :), I've yet to get chance to double check the info there with the details in this article.
born against 11:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be cool if you could comb that article for any additional technical/commercial/whatever facts about the game. (Copies sold, assembler or direct code programming, 3D engine details, domestic vs overseas, etc....) Same applies to any other non-referenced issues here, such as the retrogamer article. --BACbKA 12:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Cool article indeed! We now have a link to the online version of that article, currently in the Links section. I've just exacted the assembler vs direct code issue in the article text, and am waiting for the author name confirmation to make it a formal reference just like all our other sources. --BACbKA 19:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article in Edge Magazine April 06 issue 

message: A recent edit added the following text to the link to the ZX81/Spectrum emulator:
:This ZX81 emulator was solely written to run '3D Monster Maze' on a ZX Spectrum. The fact that other games run as well is bonus! The emulator was written on a ZX Spectrum with the goal to run it on a SAM Coupé. Later the screenroutines from this emulator were copied to the SAM Coupé, creating SAM81 : The ZX81 emulator for the SAM Coupé. Now '3D Monster Maze' could be played on a SAM Coupé too.
I'm moving it to the talk page as it fattens the link annotation, talks about intentions/goals of the author w/o references to sources (the docs inside the version I had once tried didn't tell me that, but maybe I forgot smth; most likely it's possible to find a reference on a sinclair forum/newsgroup/mailing list) and IMHO puts too strong emphasis on the emulator itself distracting from the 3DMAZE. It also sounds a bit unencyclopaedic to my taste (especially the bonus sentence).
If 3DMAZE can be confirmed to be the sole purpose of writing the emulator, that should be added to the article, the other text is superfluous IMHO. What do you folks think?
--BACbKA 11:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ZX81 over Spectrum emulation 

message: I feel that the current "See also" section is a bit sticking out of the main flow -- first, it doesn't connect at all to the remainder of the article, and, second, it picks the Dungeons of Daggorath game rather arbitrarily from other post-3DMAZE games, even out of those listed in History of computer and video games#The 1980s.
:I thought that the "See also" section was about listing related stuff not already connected in the article.  The obvious reason why Dungeons of Daggorath is listed is because it's the "runner up" so to speak, in the first person genre.  --Frodet 16:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is that, indeed, the impression that the secion makes is that that game is a runner up, but there is no substantial references backing the fact that there was nothing in between. Now, there are no lies anyway here on the 3DMAZE -- if all we have is a "see also" without any claim that DoD is the runner up, it's fine, but I do feel that this inclusion of just that game amounts to almost saying that. It is for that reason I'm saying that either a definitive claim about being a runner up (with substantiating) should be added into Impact, or other games mentioned along with DoD to dilute the impression of DoD being the "next" 3D game. If I understand correctly from the DoD article and its mention in the history... article, it seems that DoD was the first to use color with 3D -- if we can get a reference backing that, maybe this would be a nice thing to have in the Impact section.  In any case, this would eliminate the "see also" which feels kind of blunt to me as it is. what do you think? --BACbKA 08:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you mean.  Unfortunately I have not been able to find any references which place DoD after 3D with nothing in between.  Also, I believe Dod actually does not use colour for the main action, however, it does use wire frame, that might be a first?  --Frodet 14:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have no strong feeling either way. :) --Frodet 16:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure 1) is relevant since this is an article about 3D Monster Maze and not about "...all the other 3D games...". 2) Is perhaps more relevant, especially New Generation Software's contributions as well as those who can be quoted as "being inspired by" or some such. ¨--Frodet 16:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My problem here is that at that time people didn't quite often say what inspired them when they wrote the new games :-( --BACbKA 08:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exactly my point - it will be hard to find references, but without there is very little to be made from it.  "Potential inspirational sources..."? :-)   --Frodet 14:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: I just noticed that no importance has been set for the  template.  At first I was inclided to list it as Mid, but after some contemplation I am now tempted to list it as High or even Top seeing that e.g. Sims 2 is listed as High.  Any thoughts?  --Frodet 16:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No lower than Sims 2, IMHO :-) High sounds fine. However, I'm unsure if this does anything except rating collaboration priorities within cvgproj on the unfinished aspects of an article, whereupon an FA-class one is supposed to be mostly stable anyway... --BACbKA 15:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I belive it is also used as a criteria for selection for Wikipedia releases, but I can't find any references for that now..... --Frodet 18:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Importance 

message: Sometimes during this November, the 3DMAZE turned 25 (since its completion, not the release). Perhaps somebody should nominate it for the front page, although there's such a big backlog there that it will hardly make it on time... --BACbKA 10:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It'd be really nice to see this on the front page, given the huge amount of time and effort you've put in to making it. Richard W.M. Jones 16:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Happy 25th anniversary! 

message: I removed this link because it goes to a site whose sole purpose is to sell things, which falls under WP:EL, Links normally to be avoided number 4: "Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services." None of the information in that link goes beyond what's already in the WP article. I removed this link because it's dead. Veinor (ヴエノル(talk)) 15:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a pity that the second link went dead. The reason it was there in the article was to augment the statement about serving as an inspiration of the emulator scenes. As for the first link, it is there as it seemed to be the only one providing the game cover of the NGS edition, and it's interesting to compare the two in the context of the talk of how the NGS was formed and how 3DMAZE was re-released. The "normally to be avoided" doesn't mean "absolutely unacceptable", and note that the link annotation did mention the commercial nature of the link. Note that the article passed the FA review with the link in! I suggest putting it back until a reliable other source of the same cover is found. What do you think? --BACbKA 19:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I have just pinged the dead link owner, hopefully his email isn't dead as well... Maybe he's got some alternative hosting that hasn't got indexed into google yet, given the pervasiveness of the old (dead) link in various catalogues... --BACbKA 12:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OOPS, it did bounce... --BACbKA 20:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Link removal

message: maybe it's not FA but I think it should be GA because it is a very fine article.
83.176.231.198 (talk) 17:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll sort out some references and submit it for a peer review again. --Frodet (talk) 18:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  should be GA 

message: This article has seen little action lately, but I was contemplating polishing it a little for bumping it back up into a FA.  However, the Harvard reference style bothers me a bit, mostly because it's the only article I help maintain which uses it.  Therefore, if no one object I will change to the "normal" cite template after a week.  --Frodet (talk) 16:10, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It took some time, but I finally got round to it.  Will add a few more refs when time permits.  --Frodet (talk) 18:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference format  - encore 

message: It appears 3D monster maze was picked up for translation and release in France.  .  Perhaps worthy of a small mention? --born against (talk) 14:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  French release / translation 

message: What about Wizardry (1981) for the Apple II?  That showed a first-person 3D wireframe view of the dungeon in the top left, and was released a few months before the Sinclair game.  Jheald (talk) 15:26, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Also Akalabeth: World of Doom (1979/1980, Apple II).  Jheald (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even earlier games of this kind existed on mainframes -- for example Moria (1975) for the PLATO system. Jheald (talk) 17:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "First 3D game for a home computer" ? 

message: The article says that two of the possible messages are "RUN! HE IS BESIDE YOU" and "RUN! HE IS BEHIND YOU". That can't be right, surely; the ZX81's character set didn't include exclamation marks. I'm guessing (it's ages since I've played this) that the "RUN!" is actually "RUN" in inverse video, which I appreciate might cause problems reproducing in Wikipedia... but I'm pretty sure those exclamation marks weren't there! 86.159.64.138 (talk) 16:39, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exclamation marks? 

message: This game is the cover feature in Retro Gamer issue 99. Loganberry (Talk) 21:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Retro Gamer'' feature 

message: One of the things that this page doesn't mention is that because of a "feature" in old black and white TV sets and the Sinclair modulator you could slightly off-tune the TV and the audio interference would change in pitch with the amount of black on the screen - So when Rex actually appeared and loomed into distance it would be accompanied by this spooky deepening buzzing noise. It was basically (and I guess accidentally? I don't know!) the first ZX81 game with sound and probably still the most jump-shock-scary game I have ever played because of that - Unfortunately I can find no references other than a gazillion hours of playing it to add this to the main article and I don't have a B&W portable telly any more to even take a video. Some day! Any volunteers? Lawrie (talk) 20:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  First ZX81 game with sound as a feature 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article was changed to suggest the release date was in 1982 due to an article in Crash magaaine. However, the article is solely about New Generation Software, who re-released the game at a later date than the original J.K.Greye version. The original version states a copyright year of 1981 on the cover inlay and tape and was advertised in the January 1982 issue of Your Computer. In the UK, magazines are dated for the month after that in which they are published so that the magazines can have a shelf life of two months. The January 1982 issue was published in Decemeber 1981, which means that 3D Monster Maze was available to purchase from J.K.Greye Software in December 1981. FromWithin 01:40, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Release Year Change