Talk:List of equipment of the Hellenic Army

message: Well, my self being an old member here(im the one who added the photos to every system and weapon in the first place) I decided to look to the page and I encountered this:
A total disgrace to the human eyes reaching a climax of another level with all thos who are either iggnorant or dont know how to read properly!
The page has been ruined in the weapons section b ecause of: first of all missing information in accordanance to the General Staff's information on wepaons and photos and secondly uncomfiremd information or
just "showing off" info(like the Patriot missile when it belongs to the air force).
:Unreferenced, poorly referenced, or improperly referenced material was removed in accordance with WP:BURDEN. If you would like to blame anyone, I suggest you start with the people that restored unreferenced material in the first place. FDW777 (talk) 12:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Also you will find that material "confirmed by . . . personal experiences" is not permitted on Wikipedia. FDW777 (talk) 12:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

text: I refer you to #Improperly referenced material removed, again, part 387 below, as well as other sections. FDW777 (talk) 14:41, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Thank you! Of course there's nothing stopping you adding properly referenced material, but if you're prefer to simply whine that's up to you. FDW777 (talk) 14:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: What happend to the page?

message: What is the main battle rifle and sidearm used in the Hellenic Army? --Kimonandreou 16:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle Rifle/Sidearm? 

message: I added information about the 400 US M1 Abrams offered to Greece in 2011. Here are my sources, one in English the other in Greek. I can give more links that confirm it's true. Please someone add them to the references list! I don't know how.
http://www.defencegreece.com/index.php/2011/10/the-u-s-approved-to-grant-400-m1a1-abrams-to-greece/
http://www.anixneuseis.gr/?p=78583  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evilemperorzorg (talk • contribs) 12:26, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  M1 Abrams Greece-USA deal 

message: Does anyone know how to upload pics that you have from your phone? El Greco 45 (talk) 12:18, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey , I know this was two years ago, I don't even know if you're still active, I don't even know if you already know this, but I think you can't directly (probably just on WikiData but I'm not really sure). However, you can post links of photos from WikiData and they will be turned into a photo, if it's a photo-type file. Thanks for the question! (However I think it would be more appropriate [and fast] to post these kinds of questions at the teahouse.) Aequilaterum (talk) 11:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: Rather than edit warring to add back unreferenced material, editors might want to spend more time adding references to the vast amount of material that's still in the article and that can be removed at any time. FDW777 (talk) 06:56, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Support : In this article most of equipment numbers are without sources and over exaggerated. I tried to explain, but instead of caring, they continue to exaggerate and revert the article. Cengizsogutlu (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The unreferenced material that you removed is mostly accurate. I believe only the 120mm mortars is actually incorrect, as they were never ordered. You can find a list of available main equipment here. It is clear that a lot of the older equipment is in storage and not in active service. --Xristar (talk) 11:18, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Per WP:BLOGS, that's not a reference. I'm not interested in assertions that material is accurate, I'm interested in proper references. I've given you an opportunity to actually add them to the article instead of me simply removing the remaining unreferenced material (which would be the majority of the article) straight away, which I'm fully entitled to especially considering the article has been tagged as needing additional references since October 2020. If you don't want to take that opportunity that's fine by me, I'll just move straight onto removal. If, however, editors are prepared to stop arguing here and actually add references to the article I'm prepared to wait. FDW777 (talk) 11:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

text: See WP:HOWCITE please. Wikipedia is not a defense industry forum site or a painting book, please add information from reliable sources. Cengizsogutlu (talk) 14:35, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of references 

message: Per #Lack of references above, I have removed all the unreferenced material since editors have continued to try and edit war back into the article even a small amount of unreferenced material. Per WP:BURDEN, anyone wishing to restore any of the material must provide references for it. FDW777 (talk) 20:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced material removed 

message: I’m not an editor of this page but I have realized a lot of the equipment in use by the Hellenic Army has been removed from this page. For example, Greece is the operator of the largest Leopard 1 fleet in the world and Leopard 1s are no longer listed. Greece also operates M48 MOLFs on the Aegean islands and any mention of self propelled artillery is completely gone. These are just a few of many inaccurate removals I have noticed. Can anyone explain why this happened? Am I missing something? Heartland Monarchist (talk) 03:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Per #Lack of references and #Unreferenced material removed it was removed as unreferenced. The removal of a small quantity of unreferenced material was repeatedly reverted by two editors despite me suggesting they might wish to spend their time adding references to the large amount of unreferenced material still in the artice.  Since nobody showed any interest in doing so, and continued to edit war over the first removal, I simply removed all the unreferneced material per WP:BURDEN. FDW777 (talk) 06:59, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Heartland Monarchist. Although I do agree with you, FDW777 is correct. WP:BURDEN is as it is. SIPRI is a good source but it does not account for a lot of equipment donated as Foreign Military Aid. For instance, there are probably more than 2000 M113s, but according to SIPRI there are only 1069. I will investigate further the trade registers to help as much as I can. ViktorHetman (talk) 18:43, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  the material can be added back if referenced, and thank you to the editor adding some back. I would have been happy to leave the material in the article for an appropriate length of time (as I said above, ) were it not for the disruptive actions of two other editors, who repeatedly added back material in violation of policy. FDW777 (talk) 18:51, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Regarding  (see edit summary in article history). It is smart, because it has a positive effect. Rather than an unreferenced article that people don't trust as being accurate, items get added back with references and people are satisified that the article is correct. FDW777 (talk) 21:51, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

text: El Greco 45. Yes, you do, even on Wikipedia. As I said before, I may not agree with FDW777's choice of deleting the majority of the equipment (it could have stayed and editors could have an easier job of adding references), BUT given the circumstances it was a necessary, albeit drastic, measure with . The same happened on the List of equipment of the Cypriot National Guard but as you can see the problem has been partially solved. I assume you know Greek, thus you can use Army.gr (Γ.Ε.Σ.) and Πτηση και Διαστημα as reliable sources. I can help you with that. ViktorHetman (talk) 12:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Youtube is not reliable source WP:NOYT also stop adding EKAM (Special police) equipment on Hellenic army equipment. Is it so difficult to find citations? Just CTRL+SHIFT+K and put reliable source? WP:WHYCITE WP:HOWCITE Cengizsogutlu (talk) 02:02, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of various pieces of equipment 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: I already fixed one broken reference, see here. 
Someone had simply copied the text from a refernces section on another article, resulting in this.Bonn International Center for Conversion; Bundeswehr Verification Center. "MP UZI". SALW Guide: Global distribution and visual identification. Archived from the original on 31 August 2018. Retrieved 31 August 2018.
My fix actually made it work, resulting in this.
Broken references in article can be see here."Спецпідрозділ "ОМЕГА"". YouTube. Archived from the original on 2013-08-01. Retrieved 2012-12-29. Quite obviously broken. I have no intention of fixing any more issues like that, I fixed one, I'm not fixing them if people persist in adding them. However, there's a more serious problem than that, added by the same editor and can be see here. This is the claimed reference for the M4 carbine and M4A1, and is here."Greece Ministry of Public Order Press Office: Special Anti-Terrorist Unit" (PDF). Official Website of the Hellenic Police. July 2004. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2010-07-21. Retrieved 2009-10-13.
Obviously another completely broken reference. This is copied from the M4 carbine rifle, and can be seen at M4 carbine#cite note-astymonia2004-94. However, all this proves is that the citation is false and the editor responsible has not checked any of the references. They have assumed that any gun article with "" listed as a user means Hellenic Army, but there is no evidence this is the case. As "Greece Ministry of Public Order Press Office: Special Anti-Terrorist Unit" makes clear, this is a reference for equipment used by the police, not the army. 
Unless any of the additions are verified by an editor in good standing, I regard all the copied additions as potentially improperly referenced and I am removing them. FDW777 (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: As noted above, there may be some entries that can be added back. I'm happy to discuss any of those, please do so per WP:ONUS rather than add back without discussion. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 17:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

text: proelasi.com is a blog written by some random person, see WP:BLOGS. I'm getting increasingly tired of policy violating content being added to this article despite this discussion. Should it continue, I will be asking for admin intervention. FDW777 (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improperly referenced material removed, part 18 

message: Seriously, am I supposed to accept this in any way references that the CZ 75 is used by the Hellenic Army? I'm not even picking through all the unreferenced additions, I'm simply reverting the whole addition. I am happy to discuss any items that can be added back, but as stated above "personal experience" is not acceptable. See WP:NOR, and obviously WP:BURDEN as well. FDW777 (talk) 13:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what happened now. Reverting to 29 April version is not acceptable, do not do it again. FDW777 (talk) 13:37, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Per WP:PRIMARY, . I've already explained this, but you ignored it. FDW777 (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Do you have any examples of the photo(s) you'd like to use? FDW777 (talk) 14:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

text: greekmilitary.net is some random person's website, see WP:SPS. I don't understand what kathimerini.gr is supposed to be referencing. If you are suggesting that we identify equipment by looking at pictures, that's not permitted. FDW777 (talk) 15:29, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improperly referenced material removed, again, part 387 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:08, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: I'm not autoconfirmed yet, but I know what that means and I know what semiprotection is from the policy and also what I've seen on some articles. However, as I've seen being talked about on this talk page and from the edits that have recently been made to the article, it's clear this page is a pure target of vandalisation. I think we should semi-protect this, just so that we avoid any potential vandalism-only accounts or IP adresses intentionally or accidentally disrupting the page. You may specify your opinions below, thanks! Aequilaterum (talk) 11:46, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Petition to Semi-Protect? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:39, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Specifically this page. FDW777 (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A gallery of images is not a reference 

message: Of the recent additions.
Reference ":22" does not exist. The many additions supposedly referenced by this are unreferenced.
Reference ":23" does not exist. The many additions supposedly referenced by this are unreferenced.
HK GMG, M79 grenade launcher, M203, MK19 Mod3, M1 mortar, M35 2½ ton cargo truck, MAN SE, KrAZ-255B, Steyr, Tatra, Unimog have no reference at all.
This is basically a home page, and references nothing at all. 
Nothing in the addition has a reference, I have removed it all. FDW777 (talk) 06:49, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The infantry weapons page (feel free to check the other pages) contains a single, unidentified pistol. Despite this, the Colt M1911A1, Glock 17 and HK P7 M13 have been added. In the absence of a direct link that references each claimed item (and not just the pistols, I regard all items as being probelematic until proven otherwise), I regard any use of this reference as fake. FDW777 (talk) 16:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disruptive editing part 1,001 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:07, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
* 
You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:07, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:52, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:22, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe the Greeks as using some sort of CAR-15 rather than the M4, at least in terms of quantity? Most images I've seen of M16-type carbines in Greek service have them with fixed carry handles/rear iron sights (specifically the M16A2-type carry handle of the Model 727 CAR-15 and similar) rather than the detachable arrangement used on the M4:
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5, behind the guy with the Minimi
Example 6... I'll stop now...
Standalone image of a CAR-15 with M16A2-type carry handle for comparison
Carry handle-equipped M4 for comparison
- Dvaderv2 (talk) 21:18, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure what you mean. The M4 carbine was developed out of the M16 and originally had the same fixed carry handle and sights as the M16. The large majority of Greek M16 rifles and M4 carbines were bought around 2000 in a single order (note: there are older variants as well in smaller quantities, bought in the '80s and '90s). They all have fixed carryhandles/sights which I suppose was the standard at the time. They are designated M16 and M4 in Greek service. By comparison, trying to remember from my own experience in the Greek military the marksman's rifle which lacked the fixed handle but had a rail for an optical sight had a separate designation, R0 9xx something. I think the Greek M4 are a standard variant of M4, nearly identical to the M4 that the US was using at the time ('90s-early 2000s) and not directly related to the CAR-15. Xristar (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "M4 carbine"