Talk:Rio Grande do Sul

message: Someone removed the  which I attached to same-sex civil union topic.  While I have no doubt that this fact is wikipedia-worthy but I would like to see a source or two about it.  For now I'm replacing the 'citation needed' in a less conspicuous place. Corvokarasu 12:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've added the reference to the article. Corvokarasu 13:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Same-Sex Civil Union

message: Where did the 2004 HDI data come from?
Brazilian articles claim a value of 0.854. Janiovj 02:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: HDI

message: Who wrote about Rio Grande do Sul: "Samba and carnival are not popular as in the rest of the country and the internationally famous Brazilian mulatas are rarely seen." really doesn't know Brazil. This cultural character of samba and mulatas is only from Rio de Janeiro and the coastal Northeast. Fsolda 03:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, not even in coastal Northeast. Of course there are many "mulatas" there, but samba is just another popular style, but not a common one. Forró and other Northeastern rhythms are much more popular.201.9.204.144 (talk) 07:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture

message: Can anyone tell me how to change the template that includes a heading "Curiosity" into the entries for Brazilian states so that the heading is "Statistics"? 
Redhill54 (talk) 15:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curiosity changed to Statistics 

message: Is "Brown" not the best or least bad equivalent word in English for "Pardo"?Redhill54 (talk) 12:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pardo 

message: Natives of the state are known as Gaúchos, named after the cattle herders and ranchers who settled the state's pampa regions.
Actually, this is an old but wrong myth. "Gaúchos" were originally, in the colonial period, thieves who walked throughout the pampas in their horses robbing cattle and other precious goods from that rural and colonial time. Only later it became a common denomination of all people from Rio Grande de São Pedro, which became Rio Grande do Sul. 201.9.204.144 (talk) 06:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of word "gaúcho" 

message: The article contrasts the "gaucho cultural influence" with the "europan" one... What does that mean? Gauchos are not strictly native-americans for all I know. -- NIC1138 (talk) 17:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: mostly because the Gaucho is from spanish and/or portuguese descendence, while many cities in the north of the state were founded by german and italian immigrants... since spain and portugal settled the land in the 17th-18th century and germans and italians only arrived here in the 19th, the latest are referred as european since they had more in common with europe than the european descedents that were living in the state by that time.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.10.35.6 (talk) 21:27, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  european gauchos 

message: What is a "Spanish accent"? If it means speaking Portuguese like a Spaniard or other native Spanish speaker would speak it, then no, people in Rio Grande do Sul do not speak Portuguese with a Spanish accent (not even an Argentinian or Uruguayan accent, if it matters). Ninguém (talk) 03:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Spanish accent" 

message: The text now reads:
People of Gaúcho ancestry (who can be of any race) predominate in the Southwest.
The IBGE 2000 Census data for the Southwest are as following:
# Total    747.115
# White    606.650
# Black     40.138
# Asian        548
# "Parda"   95.404
# Amerindian 2.078
# Undeclared 2.296
So, while obviously people in the Southwest "can" be of any race, this is a very incomplete information; 81.20% of them are White. The Southwest was not a region of immigration; most White people there descend from "Lagunistas", ie, Bandeirantes from São Paulo who established themselves first in Laguna, in what is now Santa Catarina and then moved south to prey on the cattle left astray by the destruction of the Jesuit reductions.
I am proposing to change the text to:
The Southwest was originally populated by "lagunistas", people coming from Laguna, Santa Catarina, a town settled by paulistas from Sorocaba. These were to become the XVIII century "gaúchos".
Here is the reference for the change: http://www.riogrande.com.br/historia/couro/couro2b.htm
If no one opposes this change in a reasoned way, I'm going to proceed to edit the article. Ninguém (talk) 03:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The source does not claim Brazilian Gauchos are descended from people from the city of Laguna. It only says "people from Laguna organized the creation and trade in livestock". Moreover, Darcy Ribeiro claim that "The Brazilian Gauchos have a common historical formation with the other Gauchos from the Plate. They arise from the ethnic transformation of the mixed-race people of mixed Spanish and Portuguese men with Guarani women".
The population from Southwest Rio Grande do Sul is largely connect to the old population from Argentina and Uruguay, before the mass European immigration in the late 19th century that actually changed most of the ethnic formation of Argentina and Uruguay. Since Southwest Rio Grande was not affected by the more recent European immigration, the population there still has the same Portuguese/Spanish/Guarani origin of the Gauchos from La Plata Basin. It seems the text there is ignoring the Guarani Indians in the formation of the people in Rio Grande do Sul, particularly Southern and Southweastern Rio Grande, wich was very important and undeniable. And the fact that most people there now claim to be White to Census takers does not erase the huge Indian Guarani influence there and, to some extent, also black African. Opinoso (talk) 02:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The southwestern region and race 

message: An IP, 200.251.176.140, whose contributions are very similar to a registered editor's (if they are the same person, I would politely ask that they use their registered account), has reinserted into the article those two ideas:
::1. That the Spanish men in "the population there was a result from the mixture of Spanish and Portuguese men with Amerindian women" were in fact "Spanish Brazilians"; and
::2. That the Spanish Jesuits in "European presence in the region started in 1627 with Spanish Jesuits" were also "Spanish Brazilian" Jesuits.
Both these ideas are utterly false. The supposed Spanish men in the region were not Brazilian, since the region didn't even belong to Brazil, or Portugal; if they existed, they were either actual Spaniards or South American criollos, culturally Spanish. The same for the Jesuits. In 1627, the misiones region was part of the Spanish empire, not of Brazil or the Portuguese empire. Ninguém (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: These speculations about a supposed Spanish predominance among the population of Southwestern Rio Grande do Sul are widely spread, but they contradict the historic knowledge about the region. In fact, there was always very smallish Spanish colonial presence there, in practice restricted to Jesuit initiatives towards the Amerindian populations, which, of course, had no genetic impact in the demographic composition. On the other hand, it is well established that it is Northern Uruguay that has always had an important Luso-Brazilian presenceEliana Rosa Sturza. Línguas de fronteira: o desconhecido território das práticas lingüísticas nas fronteiras brasileiras: Na fronteira Brasil-Uruguai, a transgressão dos limites ocorreu, sobretudo, para dentro do território uruguaio. Primeiro se instalaram os portugueses e, posteriormente, os brasileiros, de tal modo que isso possibilitou a manutenção da língua portuguesa e determinou a sua importância no próprio processo de ocupação da região norte do Uruguai., which in fact impacts until nowadays its language, not the other way roundMichael T. Judd. O dialeto fronteiriço do Uruguai: origens, investigações e oportunidades.
Arguing that the source does not "say this".
This seems a complete inversion of the burden of proof. If there was any Spanish colonial presence in modern Rio Grande do Sul, this should be established with sources. Up to now, there isn't any evidence that the Spaniards founded a single town in modern Rio Grande do Sul (on the contrary, evidence of a demographic Portuguese presence there abounds, such as the foundation of Rio Grande, Rio Pardo, Viamão, and Porto Alegre; in fact, even in Uruguay itself, such as Sacramento and San Carlos), or that they settled the region in any other way; the only "Spanish" presence there were the Jesuit missions, which were not populated by Spaniards, and the military invasion in the 18th century, which was not followed by any actual populating measures. If the Spaniards actually settled Rio Grande do Sul, this definitely would need a source (which, it seems, doesn't exist); not the other way round, requiring a source that says that they didn't, as if the default was the positive. Ninguém (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish Brazilians 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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