Talk:Catullus 1

message: From what edition is the text taken? There are huge textual issues over the "qualumcumque; quod, o patrona virgo"- check the critical apparatus in the editions. It might be mentioned as a source. Reynaert-ad 15:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: source text

message: 71.195.206.227 recently reverted a large number of my edits on this page; these edits are incorrect. Unfortunately this user is using an IP, not a username, so it is difficult to contact them. Hopefully, they will look here.
I have highlighted points that 71.195.206.227 appears to disagree with me over, and I will explain my decisions.
To whom do I give this new charming little book
Just now smoothed with dry pumice?
To you, Cornelius: For you were used to thinking
My trifles to amount to something,
For you alone dared to unravel
the entire history of the Italians in three scrolls,
learned, (by Jupiter!), and filled with labor.
Therefore have for yourself this something,
This little book, and whatever it is worth; and let it, oh patron maiden, 
remain for more than one lasting age.
*The first point of contention appears to be "unravel." 71.195.206.227 prefers the phrase "set forth," yet this loses the theme of literature and unraveling that Catullus established. Throughout the poem, he uses phrases that have a secondary meaning related to literature and scrolls. In his exaltation of Cornelius he praises him for both liking Catullus's literature, and for Cornelius's great works. In short, literature is an essential theme of the poem. Using a phrase like "set forth" loses much of the beauty of the poetry here.
*Next, 71.195.206.227 prefers "you alone of the Italians" to "the entire history of the Italians." However, in doing so 71.195.206.227 uses "entire history of the world;" the word "world" is not present in the Latin text, and 71.195.206.227 has no basis for this translation. Furthermore, there are other accounts of a man named Cornelius writing three major volumes on the history of Italy; while we don't have access to them any more we are quite certain they exist. Most likely, Catullus is referencing this person who wrote about Italy.
*71.195.206.227 prefers "volumes" to "scrolls." The justification for "unraveling" is the same as the justification for "scrolls," but also Catullus uses word picture to establish a sort of unraveling of the line. Grammatically, the line proceeds in a spiral, from the center outwards, in an unraveling motion that implies a scroll. This sort of poetic technique is characteristic of Roman poetry, and is not to be discounted.
*71.195.206.227 prefers "laboriously wrought" over "filled with labor." There are three major problems with this. First, the verb "wrought" does not exist in the Latin text anywhere. Second, "laboriosis" has an ending that means literally "Labor-filled," rather than just "labor," which would be "laboris." Third, "laboriosis" is a noun, not an adverb as 71.195.206.227 makes it.
*71.195.206.227 would prefer "such as it is" to "something," yet the Latin word "quidquid" specifically means "something" in English. There through the poem of Catullus's self-abasement; he calls his poems "trifles" earlier, and his reference to his poems as "quidquids" makes them seem small and not very valuable. 71.195.206.227's translation loses this meaning.
*Finally, 71.195.206.227 eliminates the word "lasting," but this is completely baseless and ignores the word "perenne" in the original Latin text.
Hopefully, 71.195.206.227 will show up to respond to these arguments.--WoodenTaco 18:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation Argument

message: I've just deleted the comment on the "italorum" in line 5.  The comment said that "italorum" can be taken with "omne aevum."  The "literal translation" and the English negenborn.net both take this reading as well.  I find it very hard to swallow.  Foremost is the fact that it is in the same line as "unus."  I think the pull of the word order "unus italorum" is unavoidable.  "Italorum/omne aevum" is difficult not merely because of the line break, but also because "omne aevum" is certainly a unit.  From the workings of the poem, it seems to me that this is a hard reading.  If this reading were supported by meaning as WoodenTaco suggests, it could be a possibility.  But I think he certainly means "you who alone of the Italians dared to unfurl every age" rather than "you who alone dared to unfurl every age of the Italians."  The crucial distinction here is:  was Nepos unique in being a Roman writing in such a way or was Nepos unique in writing about Italy?  We can quickly rule out the latter; Atticus, a friend of Nepos', wrote a Liber Annalis of Roman history.  Furthermore it is hardly daring ("ausus es") to be a Roman writing on Rome.  On the other hand, Nepos' Chronica, the "tricartite" work to which Catullus is referring, was unique in that it was the first Roman attempt at a comprehensive history; Nepos apparently had a Greek model (Apollodorus' Χρονικά), but it is always a major event when a Roman adapts a Greek tradition to Roman means (cf. Horace:  "princeps Aeolium carmen ad Italos deduxisse modos").  Further reasons for the reading "unus Italorum" are given in compelling article by W. Marshall Johnstone, Jr. found here: .  So, for these reasons I've deleted the comment on "italorum," for I think the reading in the given translation is right.  If someone wants to put it back, I think a discussion of both readings on the page itself would be necessary.  03:56, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  December 19 Changes to the Catullus 1 wikibooks page 

message: I offer my simple and admittedly crude transliteration. Perhaps an expert can elaborate. Personally, I feel the minimalist adn rather literal approach I have used (rather than interpret) the poem is satisfactorily true enough to the original meaning. Hope you enjoy. I am not a Latin nerd so please feel free to waffle on about grammatical minutiae- I will learn something.Starstylers (talk) 20:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: my humble transliteration

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I love Catullus so I hate to be the one to do this, but I'm not sure this poem deserves its own article. If it does, then links to outside sources establishing its importance and influence are necessary. Finsternish (talk) 21:18, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability