Talk:Tyre, Lebanon

message: :Sidon was the oldest Phoenician city, but Tyre had a longer and more illustrious history. The modern city is named Sur.
If Sidon is older, how does Tyre have a longer history?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.132.18.1 (talk • contribs) 
:::[comment on the anon. note above] Indeed. Furthermore it is nonesense. Sidon and Tyre go back to the Neolithic, along with Byblos, Beirut, and other cities. No one of them can claim to be older than the others. Politically Sidon was, during the Iron Age, more powerful than Tyre at first, but this power later shifted to Tyre (and this was all after Byblos had lost any claim to power). Nefertum17 07:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sidon

message: Why aren't the dates of some kings listed?  If they aren't known, question marks or guesses should be added.  --Simetrical 02:37, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates of kings 

message: I was looking for a wheel part 
a tyre(Tire for Americans)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudtz (talk • contribs) 
* Hi there, Did you try the "other uses" link at the top of the page?"
:Regards, Codex Sinaiticus 23:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Tyre

message: The article claims that the current name, Sur (aṣ-Ṣūr) means "rock".  Can anyone site a source or provide some information that I don't know?  As far as I know, the name does not mean "rock" (or "wall", for that matter). - Cybjorg 10:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of the name 

message: Would it be possible for someone who is familiar with Wikipedia's mapping system to provide one for this city (in a similar manner to the location map provided for most other cities e.g. on the London or  Paris articles). The lattitude and longitude co-ordinates are already provided so this should not be difficult. I would try myself but I am not sure how the mapping system works. Canderra 13:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Can anyone provide some useful external sources or books regarding the history of Tyre, expecially its ancient history?  Thanks. --Cdbavg400 22:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Sources 

message: In 'The Interpretation of Dreams' Sigmund Freud tells a story according to which Alexander became confident of his victory over Tyre after having dreamed about a satire, in Greek 'Satyros', which actually meant 'sa tyros', 'tyre is yours'. I don't know if this concerns this article, but it's quite interesting. A.Z. 03:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alexander, Tyre and Freud

message: Please edit to get consensus on - updated Widefox 17:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: as aside, note that number tire spellers in range N.America 333,000,000-1900,000,000 (lower boundary is 300,000,000(US) + 33,000,000(Can) = overestimate due to French, Spanish, etc native speakers)
* wheel-part invented in N.Ireland & Scotland
* N.Ireland & Scotland both British English regions
* wheel-part should be named tyre according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (national varieties of English) (my interpretation, as only people listed)
* the article tire first non-stub name is tire (so according to rules it should stay at tire)
* this is not about moving the article tire to tyre
* tire spelling is N.America only:
** US English
** Canadian English
* tyre spelling is Rest of the World:
** British English
** Hiberno-English (aka Irish English)
** Australian English
** New Zealand English
** Indian English (and the English spoken in adjoining countries)
** Hong Kong English (unverified)
** Caribbean English (unverified)
** International English (evidence = ISO website)
** formal Malaysian English (unverified)
** formal Singapore English (but not colloquial Singlish) (unverified)
** South African English (google search found both tyre and tire)
** etc
* readers from N.America vs rest of world get different experience tire vs tyre
* large differences for basic English words is alienating for readers and writers (please rewrite this point!)
* precedents (exactingly - noun vs. non-English speaking region city/town):
** Acre vs. Acre, Israel (major noun, major city in similar region = similar namespace issue)
** Bullet vs. Bullet, Switzerland (major noun, minor village (sorry Bullet, Switzerland - I did check your history website))
** Muscat (is disambiguation) vs. Muscat, Oman (major noun, major city - Muscat started as redirect to city, now disambiguation)
* counter examples (exactingly - as above)
** none
* notable examples
** Turkey vs. Turkey (bird) (best example of major nameclash, although because Turkey is a country, move to Turkey (country) is not same as commonly done city, country)
* both articles are of major importance for readers (Widefox admits point 1. above is slightly rash - please ignore)
* other encyclopaedias have Tyre being the city (Webster)
* A user comments above Talk:Tyre#Tyre about not finding the wheel-part
* We also have Tyre, New York to consider.
* Wikipedia common practice: In an informal survey of 1000 placenames, fifteen were ambiguous: six had the root word as the disambiguation page, eight had the root word as the 'major noun' and only one had the root word pointing to the place name.
* According to MOS: Under Wikipedia:disambiguation#Specific topic the first item is When there is another word (such as Cheque instead of Check) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Titan rocket), that should be used.: There is no "other word" for 'tyre' (unless you happen to be a US/Canadian speaker) and there is no "more complete name" for the thing that goes around a wheel "that is equally clear".  However, there is a more complete name for Tyre (the city) however ("Tyre, Lebanon") that is - if anything, more clear than just 'Tyre'.  Hence, according to this rule, that is the alternative that we should prefer.
* Usage within Wikipedia: There are 533 wikilinks to the article about the thing that wraps a wheel and 412 to the article about the city in Lebanon (plus 7 to the town in New York). But if we consider only links from article-space, we have 385 links to the thing that wraps the wheel and only 54 to the city in Lebanon (with just three to the town in New York).
**The figures provided above by SteveBaker are not very accurate. As of approximately 18:00 UTC 2006-10-11 there were 416 linked pages of any sort either directly or through a redirect to Tyre. Of these, 60 were from the Wikipedia namespace, talk pages, user pages, image pages, or portals. Seven pages were redirects or disambiguation pages. Of the remaining 340 linked pages, nearly all were for the ancient city in Lebanon. To compare, there were 532 total pages that link to Tire. Of these, 59 were not from articles and 18 were from redirects or disambiguation pages. That leaves 455 links from articles. older ≠ wiser 19:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Bkonrad - as you say, I've been to all those links, and fixed all incorrect ones (and there were many!). I've already said I wouldn't count them as there's ambiguity. Widefox 20:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facts 

message: now that's made me laugh... Cabot The discover of America - a disambiguation page! Widefox 20:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irony [[Cabot]] 

message: As an Australian, tyres are on wheels and hard work makes you tire, but I've read enough comics and websites to know how North Americans spell things. If you look at media quantity, then the Queen's english is already effectively an older fading version of North American, and ancient Tyre was here before pneumatic tyres. I became briefly perturbed by ft.lbf, but tyre.tire, as long as it can be found. Seasalt 12:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I generally agree, but the spread of American English is not the issue. Disambiguating for readers in Australia, NZ, UK, Ireland, India, EU, Internationally etc is. (Ironically, in this case, the N.American spelling version is the older version -think horse drawn carriages with metal wheel coverings-, and the rest of the world has changed due to the introduction of the pneumatic version, which may have used the term tyre in the patent). Widefox 14:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tired Tyres

message: I've placed this commented text here, and replaced it with a small note to discourage new insertion.
The film Ben-Hur's chariot race did not use the hippodrome as its setting.  
It was filmed on a set constructed on 18 acres of backlot at Cinecitta Studios outside Rome. The silent Ben-Hur also did not use
it.  Note that a real stadium would not have a big 'island' in the middle blocking the view the race.  Reference: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052618/trivia
Widefox 16:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ben-Hur's chariot race 

message: If the city is sometimes referred to as "Sour" I think that it should be noted in the article. Someone thought it was important enough to add a disambiguation link to basic taste, which sour redirects to. Note: later someone else erased part of the disambiguation notice and I fixed it. I did not add it myself. If the city is not referred to by this name, the disambiguation link should be removed from basic taste. There is a good chance that I will not come back to this talk page, as my time on Wikipedia is currently sporadic and I'll forget about it. Therefore, I suggest that someone who is knowledgeable about the subject take care of it. -- Kjkolb 05:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sour is a common misspelling of Sur (in the French, ou is always pronounced oo). Sour is not pronounced like "sour" as in "sour taste". The misspelling might be common enough to merit a link in the disambiguation page, but I'm not so sure about that. —LestatdeLioncourt 14:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a misspelling, it is just the French spelling, which may be relevant considering Lebanon's Francophone heritage. Of course, the standard French for Tyre is Tyr, but as in English many choose to call the place Sur using the Arabic name, it is not infrequently referred to as Sour (pronounced /su:ʀ/) in French. I think it deserves a mention as a common transliteration of the Arabic name.--84.190.59.66 (talk) 11:22, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sour 

message: To put this in context...On the disambig we have:
1) A regional-specific spelling of an extremely common word
2) A large city in Lebanon
3) A town with a population of less than 1,000 people
4) Another town with a population of less than 1,000 people
I do not believe that anybody can seriously argue that 3 and 4 are comparable alongside 1 and 2. 
I see, therefore, that we have 2 viable options:
1) 'tyre' goes directly to tire and the disambig at the top remains
2) 'tyre' goes directly to tyre (Lebanon) and a disambig is added to the page
Wikipedia looks terrible when a very common word is linking to (basically) nothing. It should go to one of the 2 and have a disambig within, there is nothing to be gained by having an extra step for EVERY SINGLE user regardless of which type they are looking for when you could only affect the searches of (presuming 50/50 split of what users are searching for) 50%. In reality this could well be 75% are looking for Tyre (tire) and only 25% the city in Lebanon (with an extremely small amount looking for the other version). 
This talk page is already full of debate about the organisational structure of wikipedia, lets come to an agreement and link this to one or the other, because as it stands we have the worst of both worlds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ny156uk (talk • contribs) 
:An extended debate, with both sides wanting 'Tyre' to point exclusively to their definition of the word decided that 'Tyre' itself should disambiguate - we did come to an agreement.  Even if meanings 3 and 4 are uncommon, the top two are very common.  If nothing else, in order to stop from re-opening a fruitless debate, the disambig should remain.  --Mnemeson 14:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But the agreement doesn't benefit the end-user. It doesn't matter what you or I think about which is more important, at present the end user must go through 2 steps to get to whichever one they want. We could improve the users experiene by letting them go directly to one and having a 'maybe you mean ...' on the other. I understand it is questionable to revisit this (having skim-read the main arguments for/against) but i think the resolution has resulted in a worse experience for users, not better. ny156uk 17:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Just like the round rubber thing on your car, "tire" (or "tyre"). Adam Bishop 14:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tyre to [[tire]] with tyre disambig

message: Please excuse me if the formatting for my message is poor.  
I just had a question about how to post a "cultural reference" for Tyre/Sidon.  Amie Cesaire uses the images of "Tyre" and "Sidon" in his book "Notebook on a Return to the Native Land," and I think it is worthy of mention in the article.  I have read copyright information before, but it's still kind of confusing.  I am curious to know if my posting something like
"Amie Cesaire mentions Tyre and Sidon in his book, 'Notebook on a Return to the Native Land.'"  
would be a violation of copyright, or perhaps too simplistic?  I am reluctant to try to interpret what Cesaire means by using the cities in his poetry, because I feel like that is outside of the scope of listing it as a cultural "reference."
I can provide all publishing information and page numbers regarding MY source for the citation.
Thanks in advance
--Bohemoth 19:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural Reference

message: how do you pronounce the name Tyre in English?--Sonjaaa 13:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just like the round rubber thing on your car, "tire" (or "tyre"). Adam Bishop 14:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: pronunciation

message: What's the name of the Island that Tyre is on? Tyre Island? --Armanalp (talk) 17:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The two references I found had lower caps island - Tyre island or island of Tyre. Student7 (talk) 17:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of Island? 

message: I see a few tantalizing bits about the Tyrian games, which seem to be closely related to the Olympics.  As much as I can make out (I can't access the best looking reference at ) the Tyrians held quintennial games dedicated to the Tyrian Baal, Melqart.  From the various Wikipedia articles, apparently Melqart was accepted as synonymous with the Olympian Heracles (one of the Twelve Olympians and possibly distinct from the heroic Heracles).  Apparently there were major revisions at the Tyrian temple (to "Zeus Olympius" or "Ba'al Shamayim") around the tenth century BC which established it in the Greek cultural orbit.  However I'm finding claims that a stadium in Amrit, Syria actually predated the Greek Olympics and that the Phoenicians actually started the Olympics idea.    Apparently Israeli participation in the Tyrian games under Jason the High Priest was the source of a major conflict in 186 BC.  I haven't figured out yet whether Alexander the Great's stated desire to worship in the temple to Zeus Olympius was related to these games directly.  Ruins of the stadium persist to this day.
I think it would be very interesting for someone familiar with the archaeological literature to look into this and clarify what is known about the origin of the Tyrian games and whether they are cause or effect of the Greek Olympics.
It is ironic to imagine that such a flamboyantly Christian country as the U.S. has avoided laws against blasphemy but has passed an act of Congress to protect the symbol of the games founded ? in worship of Baal... Wnt (talk) 03:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tyrian games 

message: I'm engaged in an edit-war on Bible prophecy (I've already sent a WP:3RR report) with a user who insists that Tyre has been destroyed and no longer exists.  The problem is that Ezekiel prophesied its destruction: therefore of course it can't exist, right?  Here's the paragraph that I deleted as inaccurate, and he keeps reinstating:
"The island city was destroyed by Alexander the Great during the Siege of Tyre and its residents were enslaved. Alexander used the debris from the destroyed mainland city to build a causeway to the island city. The Phoenicians never rebuilt Tyre. Numerous other empires and countries have rebuilt the city at or near the site of the original only to have them destroyed. The fishing village of Sur is now located at the original site of Tyre."
I can no longer correct this without violating 3RR. --Robert Stevens (talk) 21:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it does say that the Phoenician city of Tyre was never rebuilt. I just linked Sur, which of course, links here. Readers can draw their own conclusion. I'd just let it go at this point. It really is called Sur today, but so what? Student7 (talk) 21:49, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A city with a population in excess of 100,000 people is not a "fishing village".  Furthermore, note that in this parallel-Universe history, Alexander pretty much finishes Tyre: all subsequent attempts to rebuild it fail (so I guess Tyre has no significant history after Alexander, and much of this article makes no sense whatsoever)... and that explains why Tyre is just a tiny fishing village nowadays... --Robert Stevens (talk) 22:01, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Well, I've had to clear up more of this user's nonsense.  Apparently Tyre was the capital of the "Phoenician empire" when Alex conquered it, destroying the empire (presumably there is no Persian empire at this time in the parallel Universe), then the post-Alexander reconstruction was under the direction of time-travelling Romans (imperial Rome did not yet exist in our Universe at this point) before they handed it over to the Seleucids.  Perhaps someone who knows Tyre's history could keep an eye on the situation?  I'm off to bed. --Robert Stevens (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Generally these stories were either retained after the fact or written down after the fact. When Nebudhadnezzar finally walked into Tyre, unrestricted, there appears to be no reference as to what, if anything, the soldiers did. But it is hard to believe, in those days, that they did not take anything that wasn't nailed down, and destroy what was left. This may not be what the Ancient Jews would have wanted in the way of destruction, but it would certainly be a fairly close approximation to the real thing. Student7 (talk) 21:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

text: With a slight of hand, I have moved the next to last citation to the end of the earlier attack. I have no access to this reference and don't know whether it it true or not. Then moved the 315 full citation to the correct spot. While this clears up obvious anomalies, it may have introduced a more subtle one! Student7 (talk) 15:16, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparently, Tyre does not exist! 

message: This article would really benefit from more information on what the city is like today in terms of infrastructure, rebuilding etc. at the present time, particularly considering damage in the Israeli invasion etc. Caspar esq. (talk) 13:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-2006 or Tyre Today 

message: A line reads "A king of Cyprus had taken Tyre with his fleet in the 370s BC, "a remarkable success about which little is known," Robin Lane Fox remarked." It would appear from http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/cyprus/kition/i.html that The king of Kition, Cyprus, BC 392-361 BC. was Melekiathon. He has no article. Not trying for WP:OR here, just puzzled why we can not at least put a name to the attacker. Student7 (talk) 17:28, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: King of Cyprus 370 BC

message: Shouldn't the reference to Jesus visiting the area really come under "cultural references" since there does not appear to be any corroborating evidence from a contemporary historical source? --Archstanton (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does seem to rely on the Bible as a WP:RS, and I too think the article should be re-worked to make it clear that while the Bible does speak of Tyre there isn't corroborating evidence in many cases. JJL (talk) 17:10, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It probably got changed since the original comment was made. The "list of trading partners" should be made a bit clearer, but the rest seems objectively attributed IMO. Student7 (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bible as a historical source? 

message: Some material reads: "Common leisure activities can be enjoyed throughout the year. Cycling, camping, wildlife photography, snorkeling and scuba diving are best enjoyed during spring and summer, and bird watching is best during spring and autumn."
It was listed under a section, "Tyre Coast Natural Reserve", which does not follow standard nomenclature for a city page. Perhaps should be under "Geography."
Wikipedia is not WikiVoyage nor WikiTravel. Nor is it WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of all information. It is an encyclopedia. This is "chatty" and frivolous in nature. It attempts to inform the reader when to plan her/his trip to Tyre (violating WP:NOTHOW). It is WP:BOOSTER-ism. A bit self-conscious WP:PEACOCK-ism. Neither is it cited by a WP:RS. To try to justify it's existence, I moved it to an "Economy-Tourism" subsection. It was reverted.
I also tried to shorten another sentence under the umbrella of Keep it simple. It was reverted at the same time. Student7 (talk) 23:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Boosterism?

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Tyre, Lebanon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090311024355/http://www.lcps-lebanon.org:80/pub/breview/br5/seedenbr5.html to http://www.lcps-lebanon.org/pub/breview/br5/seedenbr5.html#cases
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:57, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: What is the use of including any of the prophecy stuff? Wikipedia is not here to prove or disprove Bible prophecies. The entire section is pointless. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ezekiel 

message: The history-section includes defensive walls 150 feet (46 m) high (with ref to Lorenzi, Rossella (May 21, 2007). Sandbar Aided Alexander the Great. Discovery News). Could someone confirm; 46 m sounds like an awful lot to me. Poul G (talk) 15:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest the claim to be removed unless someone justifies the claim. Could we say deadline by xmas (one month)? Poul G (talk) 17:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: And xmas came without objections, so I'll remove the claim. Poul G (talk) 01:53, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  150 ft high walls 

message: Shouldn't there be more mention of the Phoenicians, since many of them came from Tyre and established colonies all over the Mediterranean, plus Carthage? I'm no expert so not sure how to start, but I came here to read more and didn't find much. From this article it just seems like the city was captured a few times and that's it. --AW (talk) 18:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I added some from the Phoenicia article. --AW (talk) 18:43, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  More mention of the Phoenicians? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:36, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: Greetings and felicitations.  I just finished extensive edits on the article, largely to cleanup image placement, as in wide browser windows the appendices were very badly overrun, and to add a Too many photos template.  Please contact me if you have any questions or concerns about this.  I would appreciate it if you do, that you please notify me. —DocWatson42 (talk) 06:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear DocWatson42, thank you very much indeed. Umm, err, well, I suppose in my enthusiasm of expanding what was back then a total stub I actually did overillustrate. Now with more experience I realise that less may be more.. Cheerio! RomanDeckert (talk) 12:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:   You're welcome. ^_^ —DocWatson42 (talk) 12:48, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  My edits 

message: The readable prose-size is currently 125kB.  This is overly long based on WP:SIZERULE.  The existing suggestion to split out the historical content into a new article is sensible. I see the article is currently a Good Article nominee.  My view is that it should be split, before either of the resultant articles are assessed against the GA criteria.Marshelec (talk) 05:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Split on 2 January by Buidhe: History of Tyre, Lebanon. It still needs a proper lead section, and this article needs a summary in its History section. Lennart97 (talk) 20:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is overly long - needs splitting 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: 60,000 people in 4 km^2 (city) = 15,000 people per km^2.
174,000 people in 17 km^2 (metro) = more than 10,000 people per km^2.
If the numbers are true, I think this is the densest place on Earth. Aminabzz (talk) 18:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population density