Talk:Monday Club/Archive 1

message: To call the Monday Club "far-right" is opinion, not fact. It consisted almost entirely of card-carrying members of the Conservative Party, although it was not "within the Conservative Party". I have therefore removed these two false statements.
You will see in the text of the article that former British Prime Minister Harold Wilson referred to the Club as the Guardian of the Tory Conscience. 
Robert I 09:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Far right

message: Robert I made the following edit, a few moments ago:
The Conservative Monday Club is a right-wing pressure-group in Britain described as "an organisation which proselytized the more ancient and venerable conservative traditions of paternalism and imperialism" [cf.Levitas, p.60] [...]
The actual quote is as follows:
"And there were groups -- like Aims of Industry (founded in 1942) and the Institute of Economic Affairs (1957) -- which advocated economic liberal ideas, and others (like the Monday Club, founded in 1960) which proselytized the more ancient and venerable conservative traditions of paternalism, imperialism and racism." 
David Edgar, "The Free or the Good", in Ruth Levitas, ed., The Ideology of the New Right, (Polity Press, Cambridge, 1986), pp. 59-60.
I await Robert's response.  CJCurrie 21:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Accurate quoting

message: The Daily Telegraph uses the phrase "white minority rule" to describe the situation in Rhodesia:
:"Sir Stephen Hastings, who died yesterday aged 83, had a good war in the SAS and SOE and later joined MI6; but he was better known as the Conservative MP whose trenchant support for white minority rule in Rhodesia brought him the hostility of Socialists and the polite disapproval of his own party."
Don't know if this is another example of Communist writers infiltrating the venerable Telegraph, as Robert I would like us to think, but given that articles are vetted by copy editors etc I suspect this is a matter of the Telegraph accepting the phrase as an accurate description. Given that Conservative and liberal papers alike use the phrase I see no basis on which Robert's objections to the phrase as "biased" and "left-wing" can be seen as having merit. Homey 15:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "White Minority Rule" 

message: What's with the vast and superfluous list of publications? Rd232 talk 16:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Publications 

message: What is the reason for renaming this page ? There was no conflict at Monday Club. Wizzy…☎ 19:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming

message: Enoch Powell was a very strong supporter (though not a member of any political groupings) of the Monday Club over a period of thirty years. He travelled up and down the country to address their meetings and formal dinners until he became unable to do so. Many are catalogued in Simon Heffer's biography of him. So the question is, was Powell "far right"? Doubtless if I spent endless hours trawling through the Guardian and Independent or even the Tribune, I could find exactly that reference. But is it accurate? If its not, how does the Monday Club, which was arguably more mainstream than Powell who went off to become an Ulster MP in the 1970s, get that appellation? Robert I 11:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Enoch Powell & Far Right

message: Charles Matthews: Sir Harry Lauder is a very famous and prominent Brit. He was also a strong supporter of the Conservative Party to whom he gave significant donations. Virtually every newspaper report which mentions Lauder-Frost cites him as Lauder's great-nephew, because it ties him into a prominent family. This is pretty normal in Britain. 213.122.54.86 12:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But this can go in the Harry Lauder and Lauder-Frost articles. We write hypertext - journalists in a newspaper can't. It is much better to add to articles on people than add epithets every time you mention them. In fact I see that the Harry Lauder article has nothing about support for the Tories, so your time would be better spent adding that and the Lauder-Frost connection there, once and for all. Charles Matthews 13:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Identities

message: The list of publications is way too excessive. Can it not be trimmed back only to include those pamphlets which made a serious impact when published or are otherwise notable? David | Talk 23:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that once you start eliminating the publications the Monday Club's remit on a whole range of issues becomes narrowed. As it stands it gves an excellent over-view of what the Club was about. This was discussed, briefly, above. 213.122.101.159 09:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at Fabian Society - a society famous for its pamphlets has none listed. This issue can be covered in the text. Meanwhile, see What Wikipedia is not: ".. excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia." David | Talk 09:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but as I wrote above, the conclusion is 'move out the list to own page', not 'cut'. A comprehensive list of Fabian pamphlets would be useful. Charles Matthews 10:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: There is a difference here. The Fabian Society is fundamentally socialist. Generally speaking socialism is doctrinaire. The Monday Club brought together a lot of different conservatives, many of whom did not agree with each other on certain issues. Tory approaches to different subjects have not been doctrinaire like socialism. Also, The Left have generally smeared the Monday Club as a more-or-less single issue group opposing immigration. This is a distortion of the truth, as they had a vast interest in a variety of political subjects. This is reflected in their publications. If you remove the publications we are left with a rump which will give a warped view of the club's activities. 213.122.91.215 14:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I still think the right thing is to move (not remove) them, in line with ordinary good practice here. Charles Matthews 16:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Excessive referencing

message: No evidence that he was "speaking sarcastically". Please provide proof. 213.122.101.159 09:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wilson's comment

message: (see Talk:Gregory Lauder-Frost for part two)
Robert Isherwood wrote:
An article in The Independent (24 February 1991) described it as "the biggest Tory Party pressure group".
My responses:
(i)  It wasn't the Independent, it was the Observer.
(ii)  Here is the context:
FAR RIGHT TAKES OVER THE MONDAY CLUB
The running of the Monday Club, the biggest Tory Party pressure group, has been taken over by extreme right-wingers, some of whom have close links with fascist and racist groups abroad. 
An Observer investigation has established that a prominent member of the new ruling faction is Stuart Millson, who has rejoined the Conservatives five years after leaving for the British National Party. He said then: 'I would describe myself as a fascist. My main aim has been to drum up as much support for racialism as possible.' [Note: It's possible that there was subsequently a defamation lawsuit concerning this quote; it is presented in this instance as part of the original article, not as a direct accusation against Millson.]
* This article, much of it fantasy, is a repeat of an accusation. No two ways about it. Both the Times and the Independent have hadf to pay out-of-court damages to Milson in the past couple of years for calling him a fascist etc. No doubt he will be keep to see this. 195.194.75.209 18:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Citing the quality dailies and the BBC here is perfectly acceptable. Charles Matthews 23:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Accurate quoting (part 3)

message: This is the only reference to Stuart Millson I can find on the UK Press Complaints Commission website.  I may be misreading the situation, but it appears as though the Irish Times was not forced to apologize or pay a settlement.  I repeat my question: what precisely were Millson's out-of-court settlements for?
*Complainant name: Mr Stuart Millson 
*Report: 60 
*Paper: Irish News  
*Clauses noted: 1  
*Complaint: Mr Stuart Millson of West Malling, Kent complained that he had been described as an ‘open fascist’.  
*Resolution: The newspaper gave the complainant a substantial opportunity to reply to the description.  
http://www.pcc.org.uk/reports/resolved.asp?id=871
* Retractions and apologies were published in both the Independent and the Times (27 November 2001). You're so clever at spending hours looking all this crap up why don't you find them?86.129.77.132 23:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Stuart Millson

message: I'm not going to take the anon's word that this exists.  Provide a citation if you want the information to stay.  CJCurrie 23:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Observer retraction(?)