Talk:Post-metal

message: Before criticizing the genre name as if the subgenre doesn't exist at all, consider the terms "post-" and "progressive" used in other art media such as post-modernism and post-impressionism. It is entirely possible to still create an impressionist painting, but it's also possible to create a post-impressionist painting. Essentially "post-" is a way of saying "Uses its suffix as a springboard but deconstructs the original style using other typically unrelated influences or techniques in order to explore new unique avenues that would not otherwise be part of the initial genre." Meanwhile, "progressive" typically refers to deconstruction of the genre using its own materials for further experimentation of the genre itself. Post-metal uses metal as a foundation, but deconstructs the sounds from metal and mixes it with otherwise typically unrelated genres to explore what else can be done with it. Prog-metal is still firmly rooted within metal but experiments with metal's own sounds and styles. Frankly I'd point to there being very little difference between progressive metal and technical metal, before pointing the finger at prog and post.
Examples, using architecture:
*One could build a house the standard, classic way with typical materials and tools (classic/root genre). 
*One could also use those same typical materials and tools to build a house in a non-traditional way, in order to experiment with new ways a house can be built ("progressive"). 
*One could also use portions of those materials and tools, but hybridize them with unrelated materials and tools to create something entirely different with the concept of a house as its base but which may not even be a house in the end ("post-"). 
205.250.211.218 (talk) 22:41, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: The term "post-"

message: This genre doesn't exist.  It's just made up to (for whatever reason) further categorize bands that already have genres.  The 'criticism' topic on the article offers no arguments why it should exist, just that a lot of people think it shouldn't...
Evanmontegarde 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It 'exists' in just that way - it creates label for a group of similar-sounding artists whole music is a merge of countless others. A jazz enthusiast might subcategorise genres and styles in a way that someone unfamiliar with jazz will be completely mystified by, and this is a metal/alternative music equivalent. Seegoon 18:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: This is incorrect. Post- genres, social movements and political philosophies can, and do, co-exist with their origins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ootmotl (talk • contribs) 04:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Rock still exists. And, well, the name POST isn't maybe the most correct, but post-rock exists, so why not post-metal. Though usually music can be both post-rock and post-metal. There are subgenres for these (Post-rock from indie rock to ambient, post-metal from free experimentation to sludge metal and more ambient structures), and that's one legitimating subject here. Dynamic Progressive Turbulence Creator (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Well, avant-garde metal are those things in music that are more clearly from other genres, and you should remember the slight differences between avant-garde and experimeltal music. Dynamic Progressive Turbulence Creator (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Post-metal is the fusion of post-rock with heavy metal, avant-garde metal has nothing to do with post-rock. 2605:A601:A927:1900:F4FE:BCBF:BA1A:F64B (talk) 03:28, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Legitimacy (1)

message: While I am in favor of the use of the term "post-metal," I don't see the reason for having Kayo Dot and maudlin of the Well in the list of notable bands, as they already fit so perfectly into the "avantgarde metal" genre. I don't think that they share the similar sound of ISIS or Cult of Luna. Also I would say the same thing for Boris because (as far as I know) they don't have any releases that sound similar to the rest of the bands. Brownishleaf 13:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be inclined to agree with you. A specific sound has to be labelled, and I'm not sure that bands like that adhere to it strictly. Seegoon 14:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded… if you look in those artist articles, Boris is clearly sludge/doom/stoner and Kayo Dot is experimental/alternative. I don't necessarily agree with those uncited genres but nowhere do they say post-metal. (Nor do either sound like it.) = ∫tc 5th Eye 15:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. What I'd like to propose is to include one or more sources for every band listed (and meanwhile comply with WP:LIST). It discourages people to add dubious bands and it makes every entry verifiable. I did it on several lists and it seems to work.. I'll start searching for sources... Emmaneul (Talk) 17:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Boris needs to be removed from this article. They have one release (2000's Flood) that could be called post-metal, but that would be so far of a stretch that it does not warrant them being mentioned at all in this article. Also, the mentioning of orchestral music incorporated into post-metal, when was there ever orchestral music in any Intronaut song? 76.232.33.78 (talk) 09:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Minsk may also deserve mention on the list. H2ostra (talk) 05:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

text: The way I see it, Wikipedia runs on reliable sources, and there were reliable sources for all the bands removed except for Battle of Mice, who are called post-metal on their page (that should be sourced also, but considering the band's sound it shouldn't be too hard to find a reliable source). I really don't like genre arguments, so I'm going to make a proposal to try and cut this short: for controversial additions to the list, there must be more than one reliable source stating them to be post-metal. Is that acceptable? --LordNecronus (talk) 15:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that may be the best course of action for now. I think part of the problem lies in the fact that "post-metal" is used as the name for a specific sound and genre (descended from sludge and post-rock, as best demonstrated by Isis, Cult of Luna, later Neurosis, and Pelican), but is also, less commonly used to describe a much broader movement away from more conventional metal structures, which would include such bands as Sunn O))) and Agalloch. H2ostra (talk) 10:08, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable bands 

message: I've been bold and cut down the list to the most notable exponents of the genre. Many of them were redlinked, or only labelled post-metal by a stretch. I feel any more additions should be more carefully considered, and possibly discussed here. However, for legacy's sake, here's the list as it stands before the edit:
*Agalloch
*Amenra
*Boris
*Conifer
*Callisto
*Cult of Luna
*Fall Time
*From Now On
*Giant (NC band, not late 1980's band "Giant")
*Isis
*Jesu
*Kayo Dot
*Minsk
*Mouth of the Architect
*Neurosis
*Old Man Gloom
*Om
*Pelican
*Red Sparowes
*Rosetta
*Russian Circles
*Silence Kit
*Splintered
*Tides
*Unfold
I can't claim to be an absolute authority on the genre; but niche/redlinked bands don't truly contribute to the encyclopaedic or informative nature of the article. Seegoon 13:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea to me this this sounds like a BS genre, made up by music critics who think they know everything. Most of these bands don't even sound similar, or can be labeled a legitimate genre. T REXspeak 23:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is definitely a distinct sound forming/that has formed. Listen to the similarities between albums like Panopticon, The Eye of Every Storm or Oceanic with bands such as Mouth of the Architect, Pelican (band), 1-2 Seppuku, Russian Circles, Red Sparowes etc. etc. etc.. I think there is a case for labelling this. There are a lot of post-rock elements yes, but at the same time, the approach and result are both quite different to what is most often describes as post-rock. Mwhale 06:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It's an understandable sentiment, but Russian Circles are borderline. And, given the dissent expressed for even having this page, we should probably refrain from including any questionable bands. There are already several decent examples on the list and it would be best to stick with obvious examples. Abbenm 02:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Moonty 04:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reduction of list 

message: They're often referred to as post-metal, but it's hard to find a definitive reference to such. Any ideas? Though they are post-rock, no doubt, they also seem to fit post-metal as well. That's the trouble with post-metal, it's often very close to post-rock, and is thusly difficult to classify without at least some crossover. Thoughts? Moonty 20:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an understandable sentiment, but Russian Circles are borderline. And, given the dissent expressed for even having this page, we should probably refrain from including any questionable bands. There are already several decent examples on the list and it would be best to stick with obvious examples. Abbenm 02:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Moonty 04:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RE: Removing of Russian Circles

message: Was there something wrong with my line 47 edit that got removed? I'm guessing you just reverted to the version before my edit, because you also restored a misspelled version of the word "reinstatement". There should be some sort of message there however to discourage the addition of bands to the list, and the present message seems to address this only indirectly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbenm (talk • contribs) 01:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moonty 

message: Does this actually bring anything to the page? This is one reviewers opinion, and as far as i am concerned and my friends that like post-metal are concerned, live performances of post metal are certainly not boring. I do understand that this is just opinion, and surely citing a reviewer (12) cannot be justification for adding this. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.177.5 (talk • contribs) 
: You're right. I've removed that section, but I think it can be recreated when we find a more variety of sources about the nature of post-metal shows. –Pomte 19:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Live Post Metal Boring? 

message: These two sentenses seem to be in Controversion
*Isis' Panopticon (2004) is a prime example of post-metal
*Isis are often credited with laying down the conventions and definition of the genre in less nebulous terms, with their release of Oceanic in 2002
If Oceanic (2002) was already post-metal than Panopticon (2004) was not prime --A4 (talk) 09:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversion 

message: I dont think Ufomammut should be in that list, it's straight up stoner doom not post-metal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.149.249.161 (talk) 05:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ufomammut

message: Ok, the "stylistic origins" box is out of control.
Let's pare it down to the sources discussed in the article. So Aaron Turner says the prime forebears are Flying Luttenbachers, Melvins, Godflesh, and Neurosis. Flying Luttenbachers are a punk jazz group, Melvins and Neurosis are sludge metal groups, and Godflesh is an industrial metal group. Actually, Godflesh could also be considered sludge, so let's just cut it down to punk jazz and sludge. I guess we're considering Helmet to be post-metal, and they're a noise rock group, so that gets added. If Tool counts, they always cite King Crimson, so we'll add progressive rock.
Seems to me like this is enough. If we're going to add some other stylistic origin, I think some source or argument should be presented.
Shoegazing should be added, too, given the prevalence of the "metalgaze" label.
Aryder779 (talk) 18:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because those don't say that post-metal came out of sludge. This article is about the style as a whole, not individual bands.--¿3family6 contribs 12:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Because the origins is what reliable sources say the genre as a whole emerged out of. Individual bands will have their own unique styles. Often this carries over into the origins section, but only if reliable sources say so. Fictional example: "Post-metal band Neurosis plays sludge-metal" is not definitive; but "The characteristic sludge-metal style of Isis is credited with the emergence of the post-metal genre" or "the sludge influenced post-metal scene" would be definitive. Hope that helps.--¿3family6 contribs 16:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stylistic origins 

message: "When Neurosis first began in 1985, few would have guessed that they would become the beacon of progressive sludge."
"Isis' first official release, this 1999 EP shows off a few different facets of the band's hardcore/doom/sludge/metal style".The first post-metal bands are described as sludge by reliable sources. Tell me again why sludge isn't in the origins' box.Xr 1 (talk) 12:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Because those don't say that post-metal came out of sludge. This article is about the style as a whole, not individual bands.--¿3family6 contribs 12:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Because the origins is what reliable sources say the genre as a whole emerged out of. Individual bands will have their own unique styles. Often this carries over into the origins section, but only if reliable sources say so. Fictional example: "Post-metal band Neurosis plays sludge-metal" is not definitive; but "The characteristic sludge-metal style of Isis is credited with the emergence of the post-metal genre" or "the sludge influenced post-metal scene" would be definitive. Hope that helps.--¿3family6 contribs 16:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sludge 

message: The image :Image:Isis Panopticon.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Isis Panopticon.jpg

message: These sources for Thy Catafalque and Lento, are they reliable? --LordNecronus (talk) 21:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, both are essentially webzines with no professional content. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thy Catafalque and Lento 

message: I really think the list should be kept to 10 bands, as this is a genre article, not a list article. It really doesn't need to include every band that anyone has ever called "post-metal", just a few of the most notable examples. If anyone feels that there should be a complete list, a separate list should be constructed. As of now, I have only removed bands that did not have a reference from the list, because I didn't want to impose my own subjective view of the genre. The bands that I think should make up the list:
* Isis
* Neurosis
* Pelican
* Cult of Luna
These top 4 are easily the most often cited members of the genre, and should all definitely be on the list. 
* Rosetta
* Minsk
* The Ocean Collective
* Mouth of the Architect
Aside from those 8, perhaps Godflesh or Intronaut.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by H2ostra (talk • contribs) 18:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  List 

message: I'm not sure Tool counts as post-metal, despite the apparent labeling of the band as such. Rather, my interpretation of the sources is that they mean to describe something that comes after metal, and while post-metal may hold similar meaning -- turning away from convention, particularly -- I'm not convinced that's what Tool is doing. The term is being used differently than is meant when we discuss the genre-term. Thoughts? – moonty (talk) (contribs) 03:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't read the three sources used to cite Tool (silly of me, I know), so I'll take a look at them now and see if they're actually citations. If they specifically call Tool "post-metal", then Tool stays. I will take a look at the context they're used in, as well, however. --LordNecronus (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

text: "Tool's vicious, post-metal attack", "Tool's bag of post-metal goodies" and "post-metal stylings" - none of them, technically speaking, are direct "Tool is post-metal" citations, but they're all a bit vague, so I can't tell whether they count as citations for Tool's post-metal status. Does anyone else have any opinion to offer on these? --LordNecronus (talk) 18:05, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that all of the above citations refer to post-metal as a metaphor, rather than the real Post-Metal genre. I am pretty sure that Tool shouldn't be labeled as Post-Metal in any case. If everyone agrees, I suggest removing it from the list. — Gahonzu (talk) 15:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Tool is Alternative metal and Progressive rock/metal, it has nothing to do with this genre, there's nothing "sludge-y" about their music. 98.223.21.132 (talk) 20:16, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Presence of Tool in article 

message: The proper name for this genre is "Atmospheric Sludge metal" aka Post-metal, just saying. Not a shred of Heavy metal in this music. Also, "Heavy metal" is not specific enough, this is a sub-genre of Sludge and Post-rock. :/98.223.21.132 (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Post-metal" 

message: Okay, I'm foreseeing a big dispute coming with the Deftones addition. So I checked the sources, and they look reliable, and though the term "post-metal" isn't used, two of its synonyms, "metalgaze" and "shoegaze metal," are used. The biggest problem with these refs is that they refer to only one album, and per the Underoath discussion above on this talkpage, one album is not really good for listing the band as a representative of post-metal (I'm personally not completely at ease with this, but that was the consensus reached in the above discussion).--3family6 (talk) 01:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Efectivelly, one reference is about their newest album, but the other spesks about the white pony album and onwards, wich means that the band have released four metalgaze/post-metal album. i found a quote on another article: "In the past the Deftones hunkered down for years inside jam spaces and recording studios to create its progressive blend of skull-splitting groove metal and luscious shoegaze.", hope it helps to add Deftones here.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.154.30.101 (talk) 04:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the references more thoroughly this time, and I think you are right.--3family6 (talk) 14:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, if Deftones makes it here, i will add the post-metal genre to the band's infobox and to their albums aswell.189.165.38.7 (talk) 00:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Careful with the infobox, as with those we try to be as general and inclusive as possible. With albums, make sure they are explicitly labeled as such. Good luck,--3family6 (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

text: I thought the same about the Deftones, but I don't really listen to them, so I would not know. With Boris, all that is needed is a reliable source.--¿3family6 contribs 11:54, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deftones 

message: We now have a list class article for the post-metal bands: "List of post-metal bands". Please move/use necessary info and references from here or the post-metal bands articles on the list. Also add post-metal bands you know (with ref/source it will be better). The list is new and needs a lot of work. Please contribute. Thanks. Winter Gaze (talk) 12:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of post-metal bands 

message: I have removed the following text from the article:
:The simplest way to define post-metal is as a fusion of post-rock and heavy metal. This indicates the interplay of light and dark - taking the distorted guitars and guttural vocals of metal and setting that against the clean instrumentalism of post-rock. Pieces tend to be at a slow- to mid-tempo, focusing on chord changes and barrages of sound rather than lead guitar riffing and shredding, and usually eschewing guitar solos.
:Isis' Panopticon (2004) is a prime example of post-metal, and post-rock elements are clearly evident in the contrast between calm melodic passages and aggressive distortion-driven climactic sequences. Similar musical structuring can be heard in Pelican's second album released in 2005, The Fire in Our Throats Will Beckon the Thaw, again with a focus on gradual evolution of structure.
:There are a number of completely instrumental post-metal bands, such as Pelican and Russian Circles.
:Production is usually very tight, and there is little "garage band" feel to the music. This allows for pervasive or minimalist sections, often including instruments such as clean guitars or synthesizer, to come through more clearly.
:The general philosophy behind post-metal production is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, so each instrument is usually given about equal presence. Vocals are often not particularly high in the mix, and in most cases are "barked" in the style of hardcore punk or metal, i.e. guttural and shouted, rather than growled in death metal. Lyrics cover a wide spectrum of issues, usually somewhat metaphysical, existentialist or macroscopic, as opposed to deeply personal or directly allegorical. Themes often include political dissatisfaction, or criticism of herd mentality.
:The result of this is often long songs, commonly in the range of six to eleven minutes. Therefore a typical post-metal track is not generally suitable for radio play, nor is it commercially viable. Similarly, albums are often created as quasi-conceptual, creating the greatest impact when listened to as a whole. Likewise, it is not uncommon to see literary influences on albums, such as Red Sparowes' At the Soundless Dawn. 
:A typical post-metal piece might start with a lone guitar, but eventually build to six-plus members playing simultaneously, as shown in songs like "Genesis" from The Beyond by Cult of Luna. Likewise, a post-metal song may leap "head-first" into the music, with distortion and aggression evident from the start. Songs like this challenge the definition of the genre, but the majority of them will contain clean interludes or lulls, usually as parts of a build-up in themselves. Relevant examples include "False Light" from Oceanic by Isis, or "Australasia" from Australasia by Pelican.
--Nite-Sirk (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed unsourced content 

message: The post-metal article is currently claiming that the term "metalgaze" is synonymous with post-metal. The source provided, a Pitchfork album review, reads: "For Broadrick, his brilliant Jesu project (a kind of epic and melodic, shoegaze-glazed Godflesh) has been like the elder master responding to the work of his students (primarily the whole Neurosis-Isis-Pelican post-rock metalgaze school) and in turn, blowing open the whole genre, yet again." Putting post-rock next to metalgaze doesn't mean the writer is suggesting these two terms are interchangeable, which is what's being implied in this encyclopedic entry. Anyone who believes this sentence is suggesting that these two terms are synonymous probably also believes it's proper English to say "H2O water" or "cat feline". 
A good example of what a source should say in this situation would be the following citation for post-metal being synonymous with atmospheric metal. The source provided, a pdf document of some sort, reads: "Neurosis, one of the pioneers of experimental metal (also often referred to as atmospheric metal or post metal, in reference to the term post rock)..." This source explicitly and directly supports the claim made in this encyclopedic entry. 
See also: Wikipedia:No original research, which reads, "Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research..." Fezmar9 (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed.--Malconfort (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I found some more explicit mentions: An interview by Blistering, though this one could be a little vague, and an article by Michigan Daily, which makes an absolutley definitive connection. "Shoegaze metal" and "NeurIsis metal" are synonymous with metalgaze (and therefore post-metal) as explained in an editorial by Rhapsody.--¿3family6 contribs 21:29, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Something I should have mentioned in my previous statement is that I don't really have a problem with this claim in general, only the way it was being presented and sourced. It also stems from an argument on another talk page where a user was insisting that shoegaze metal and post-metal were the same thing, but had little evidence to support this theory other than this Wikipedia page said so and a few blog entries. I think the Michigan Daily source you dug up is both credible and explicitly states what it needs to. I'd support the reintroduction of this material with that source, but probably not the Rhapsody article or the Blistering interview. Fezmar9 (talk) 22:40, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand, for the record I never thought that you were opposed to the claim. I'm not sure why Blistering is considered unreliable, especially since this particular article was written by the Editor-in-Chief, who has contributed to About.com and Metal Maniacs. I would think that in this case it would be redundant, not unreliable. Same with Rhapsody. This is a major and reputable company that features interviews and articles about various artist, whose writing and editorial structure seems similar to Allmusic. Why is it unreliable?--¿3family6 contribs 00:32, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Rhapsody is an online music store with a smaller written component. They may not be considered reliable as their writings could be seen as attempting to advance a sale. The article you have provided here reads to me as "hey, check out this genre you may have never heard of, buy our service and listen it." You also describe the article as an editorial, which is an inherently biased opinion by definition. Rhapsody was discussed at WP:RSN back in October 2010. The result of the discussion was that it's probably not reliable (at least in that one instance). I don't know anything about Blistering personally, it just didn't appear reliable at first glace and didn't seem to warrant a second glace after seeing that Michigan Daily was a fine fit for this situation. I've seen dozens of new music sites pop up in my years editing Wikipedia and a cursory glace didn't show anything impressive that a professional/established website might have. Your claim that the writer for Blistering also writes for About.com wasn't really impressive either since many RSN discussions (just the first five I found) have deemed the site of questionable reliability and should be handled on a case-by-case basis since the site has no editorial oversight. Fezmar9 (talk) 05:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Hold on, the shoegaze metal statement is still being debated, and if you don't have time to do it properly then let someone else who has the time do it. Now, getting back to the sources: About.com has a professional editorial staff and is run by a third party. Allmusic has come up a lot too, and the consensus is that it meets RS guidelines. I do not see how About.com is any different. Besides, Metal Maniacs is also reliable. So even if Blistering is not reliable, the author in question is. As for Rhapsody, it has a professional editorial staff, and the site is at least partially run by MTV Networks and Viacom. The "editorials" actually seem to be typical standard music journalism. This is what I meant by saying it is similar to Allmusic, in that it's "blogs" are professional stories that go through the editorial process just like you would find in Rolling Stone or The A.V. Club. Yes, they are biased, but so are reviews (they have to be by definition) and most news stories in any music publication.--¿3family6 contribs 12:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Just noticed this: The author of the Rhapsody piece is a very highly established music writer, so if Rhapsody is unreliable, which I don't think it is, Chuck Eddy is reliable as an SPS.--¿3family6 contribs 12:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In journalism there are writers and there are editors. Writers create the material and editors review the material to make sure it doesn't feature opinions or factual errors, and also makes sure it something the publication would like to represent. Editorials don't have this oversight and are regarded as simply opinions. Many news organizations (especially newspapers) have disclaimers about their editorials and how they should not be considered factual or accurate. WP:RS reminds us that: "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces are reliable for attributed statements as to the opinion of the author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." So basically, if you wanted to use these two sources, you'd have to phrase it as "David E. Gehlke of Blistering believes that metalgaze and post-metal are synonyms." This is the same way that reviews are treated in reception sections of album articles: "John Doe of Publication X liked this album because...". About.com doesn't have editorial oversight as noted in the RSNs, and it's not run by a third party, it's owned by a third-party. I don't understand why Allmusic is being mentioned here at all. I don't see how being owned by Viacom makes a source reliable. Viacom also owns Nick Jr. and Bubba Gump Shrimp Company; are these reliable sources of information too? I also don't understand why this argument is ongoing if I already agreed with the Michigan Daily source. Does this simple claim really need three sources when one will suffice? Fezmar9 (talk) 17:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Two sources are needed and used, one for metalgaze and the other for shoegaze metal and the rather humorous "NeurIsis metal." Both of these meet reliability criteria, as the first is a reliable student paper and the second, while the publisher has been questioned in this discussion, the author himself is reliable. So really, this discussion can end. The big problem I have with the RSN's above is that they accuse About.com of not having editorial oversight without evidence. I've been reading About.com's process of becoming a writer, there is extensive editorial oversight at first. The question is whether it continues once an author is established. But this would be a discussion for the RSN. The reason I brought up Allmusic is that it also has been heavily discussed on RSN and frequently accused of being unreliable and subject to frequent accusations of bias.--¿3family6 contribs 19:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Something else I've been wondering about: If an author writes a book, the publisher is the third-party. So wouldn't a journalistic piece be thought of the same way? For instance, Eduardo Rivadavia writes for Allmusic. Isn't Allmusic the publisher? Or is Allmusic considered the same as the writer, and Rovi Corporation is the publisher? I honestly don't know what the standard is here.--¿3family6 contribs 19:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Allmusic might have been brought up a few times but I don't see a single discussion where it wasn't immediately deemed reliable. All the discussions for About.com however almost immediately deem the site unreliable due to their lack of editorial oversight. If you have proof of such oversight, perhaps you could open an RSN discussion and submit your evidence. I believe in common language, yes, Allmusic is the publisher of something that Eduardo Rivadavia writes. However, when using  Allmusic is the work and Rovi is the publisher. Rovi is actually the company who distributes album information across the web to sites like Metacritic and Yahoo. Also, do you really feel that the humorous "NeurIsis metal" is truly encyclopedic and not just something that you find amusing? Google only turns up 15 results for "NeurIsis metal" and many of them are just copies of the Rhapsody editorial. It's clearly not a widely used term and I believe you're giving undue weight to some writer's own neologism. Fezmar9 (talk) 17:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll save the About.com and Rhapsody issues for RSN. I wanted to put some sort of caveat with NuerIsis metal, but there wasn't one directly in the Rhapsody article. How should this proceed?--¿3family6 contribs 19:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Late to the discussion. The most reliable source for "metalgaze" and "post-metal" being interchangeable terms is this: https://books.google.com/books?id=D_eKBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=%22metal-gaze%22+%22post-metal%22&source=bl&ots=pi5if_RwpI&sig=0C13pCbVNJGIIPlgqvoVYB_3Kyk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8nuil6KPMAhWG6xoKHf1jACs4ChDoAQgbMAA#v=onepage&q=%22metal-gaze%22%20%22post-metal%22&f=false
Whether that alone is sufficient, I don't know.
Madreterra (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Metalgaze" 

message: In my opinion, it is not necessary to find a source which explicitly states that post-metal has sludge metal origins, in order to put sludge metal genre into the "other topics" section (not stylistic origins part). If we look at bands such as Isis, Pelican, Neurosis or even Jesu, we can say their music mostly have sludge elements (which has been also stated in their own articles). It is that obvious. And even if we needed a citation to put a genre in the regarding part, why wasn't the "drone metal" genre sourced at first? The source necessity for such a detail just seems like an exaggeration (unless the claimed genre is controversial for the article, of course.) - Myxomatosis75 (talk) 14:54, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sludge metal" in the other topics section 

message: Does anyone see a connection between the two? this genre seems to be a fusion of certain alt/indie rock genres(like shoegazing and post-rock) with metal, while alternative metal originally referred to bands that fused alt rock/grunge with metal, before becoming a sort of blanket term for nu metal (due to the grunge influences in that genre), and two of the bands mentioned (Helmet and Tool) were, and still are classed as alternative metal. I call the big one bitey 10:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it'd be okay to add alternative metal to origins if there is a specific source about it. Otherwise, all other claims would be  original research. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 15:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative metal? 

message: All the bands labeled as Post-Metal here seem to be Sludge based, but what about the other Metalgaze bands? There is also alternative "dream metal" along the lines of Deftones, Blackengaze like Alcest, some Agalloch, and Cold Body Radiation, and the atmospheric djent like Cloudkicker and Chimp Spanner. Are these considered to be the same genre as Isis and Neurosis?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.6.22.11 (talk) 06:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Agalloch's The Mantle is probably a major influence for the "blackgaze" movement, alongside Ulver's early work. The perception of what is post-metal indeed seems to have evolved outside of sludge metal origins. For example Metal Archives lists bands like Agalloch and Sólstafir under post-metal despite them not being linked with sludge metal in any way. Post-metal seems to have rather become a stylistic descriptor than being a genre in itself. Blizk2 (talk) 18:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metalgaze not Post-Metal? 

message: this is "original research", so, following my other recent additions, i'm going to just throw a section in here and let other people work it out. i'll point out, though, that i lived through the popularization of post-rock while living in ottawa (halfway between montreal and toronto) in the late 90s and early 00s.
while i'm not denying the existence of the whole sludge/grind thing, i don't think that post-metal (as we understand the term) is properly derived from it - or at least not entirely. the way i remember it is that post-metal was simply a heavier variant of post-rock. that is to say that a lot of kids into various types of hardcore listened to a bunch of gybe! records and got a bunch of ideas from it. then, the kids that were into post-rock picked up on it, largely as a reaction to the predictability of post-rock during the period. it was a breath of fresh air within the onset of a kind of monotony. post-metal consequently has a parallel development with a clade of electronic post-rock acts (65daysofstatic, god is an astronaut, pivot) that likewise developed out of a kind of boredom with the rules of post-rock.
what does that have to do with reinventing metal? it doesn't have anything to do with that at all. now, maybe there's a kind of thinking centered around the development of black and doom metal that does go through this process of reinvention. i don't really know a lot about black metal. if such a process happened, it was very distinct from what post-metal (as we know it) was.
the pelican quote in the article gets it right. what that means is that the stylistic origins section should include something about (post-)hardcore, and maybe remove shoegazing as redundant - we don't need both gaze and post-rock, as the gaze influences comes in *via* the post-rock one. you can note that post-rock lists shoegaze in it's origin section. it also explains why so many people are arguing about this: they're conflating two very different things that in reality had only a very small overlap in listenership. the first is the rise of a new kind of metal, from grind through to black. while that might conform best to the philosophical idea underlying "post-metal", nobody that listens to it thinks of it like that, and so the article strikes those people as silly. the second refers to a desire by hardcore kids to give symphonic post-rock a bit of a deeper kick, which was grasped on to mostly by hardcore kids and post-rock fans.
so, this page shouldn't be deleted, but it should be separated into these two different ideas, one derived from the merger of post-rock and hardcore and the other from the reinvention of metal. stated bluntly, "post-metal" as we know it is just "post rock with riffs", while the sludge and black streams of metal went through a reinvention that could more fairly be term "post metal". the colloquial usage does NOT conform to this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.181.93 (talk) 02:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  this is a genre, but the article doesn't understand it 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Post-metal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060825195406/http://www.callistochaos.com:80/bio.php to http://www.callistochaos.com/bio.php
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 10:09, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I see some people here saying Godflesh doesn't belong in this article. I don't have a huge say in the race, but I did do 80% of the Godflesh article in a rewrite this year, and in doing so found many sources for it being important to post-metal. You can find a list here CelestialWeevil (talk) 20:31, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Godflesh post-metal validity