Talk:Sino-Xenic vocabularies

message: :Header added. —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 02:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Korea 

message: The following example entries are incomplete. I can't actually decide over which of these are good examples that are valid for inclusion, after all it isn't good to have too many examples. In case someone wants to complete the table, include what they believe to be good examples (i.e. specifically meaningful to include) and leave out the poor examples, the WIP table is here:
Sinoxenic table (incomplete WIP draft)	Sinoxenic table (incomplete WIP draft)	Sinoxenic table (incomplete WIP draft)	Sinoxenic table (incomplete WIP draft)            	Sinoxenic table (incomplete WIP draft)   	Sinoxenic table (incomplete WIP draft)	Sinoxenic table (incomplete WIP draft)
English                               	漢                                     	和                                     	韓                                                 	越                                        	琉                                     	壯
Birthday                              	生日 shēngrì                            	誕生日 tanjōbi                           	生日(생일) saeng-il                                   	sinh nhật (生日)                           	–                                     	–
Infrared beam                         	紅外線 hóngwàixiàn                       	赤外線 sekigaisen                        	赤外線(적외선) jeog-oeseon                              	(native used)                            	–                                     	–
Weather forecast                      	天氣預報 tiānqì yùbào                     	天気予報 tenki yohō                       	日氣豫報(일기예보) ilgi yebo                              	dự báo thời tiết (預報時節)                  	–                                     	–
Aeroplane                             	飛機 fēijī                              	飛行機 hikōki                            	飛行機(비행기) bihaenggi                                	phi cơ (飛機)                              	–                                     	–
Blessing                              	祝福 zhùfú                              	祝福 shukufuku                          	祝福(축복) chukbok                                    	chúc phúc (祝福)                           	–                                     	–
Earthquake                            	地震 dìzhèn                             	地震 jishin                             	地震(지진) jijin                                      	địa chấn (地震)                            	–                                     	–
Library                               	圖書館 túshūguǎn                         	図書館 toshokan                          	圖書館(도서관) doseogwan                                	thư viện (書院)                            	–                                     	–
Bicycle                               	自行車 zìxíngchē腳踏車 jiǎotàchē            	自転車 jitensha                          	自轉車(자전거) jajeongeo                                	xe đạp (車踏)                              	–                                     	–
Nurse                                 	護士 hùshì護理師 hùlǐshī                   	看護師 kangoshi                          	看護師(간호사) ganhosa                                  	y tá (醫佐)                                	–                                     	–
Ambulance                             	救護車 jiùhùchē急救車 jíjiùchē              	救急車 kyūkyūsha                         	救急車(구급차) gugeubcha應急車(응급차) eunggeubcha            	xe cứu thương (車救傷)xe cấp cứu (車急救)      	–                                     	–
Grape                                 	葡萄 pútáo                              	葡萄 budō                               	葡萄(포도) podo                                       	(native used)                            	–                                     	–
I think the article currently has enough examples already, although adding one or two more wouldn't be pushing it that far. Any more than that, however, is a bit much. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete examples 

message: Why doesn't the example list use vocabulary from classical Chinese texts that actually show the historic cultural transition from China over Korea to Japan?
Most of the examples given in the article are modern words, many of them Western concepts and inventions. They came to China, Korea and Japan through translated works and other sources, from the outside. Ethnicity, populace, republic, freedom and equality are concepts from Western philosophy and political thought. Telephone, newspaper and film are technical inventions. Many of these words only entered the vocabulary after East Asian countries ended their isolation to the outside world in the 19th century. To further complicate matters, some modern Chinese words like 经济 (economy) were coined in Meiji Japan by Japanese authors or translators, then imported to China.
Now, the process how modern 19th and 20th century words were coined and then spread among the East Asian sprachbund is very interesting, but it gives a bit of a distorted picture of Chinese loanwords. It's like trying to show Latin loanwords in modern European languages by using examples like "computer" or "prime minister". --Mkill (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What would be a selection of words that you'd prefer? By all means, be bold and improve the article if there are problems with it. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why modern examples? 

message: In addition, some problems with the "native examples":
* Nation = 國家 guójiā = 国 kuni. 国家 kokka exists in Japanese, and is more close to "nation" than 国 kuni "country". It would be the better entry in this case.
* One = 一 yī = ひと(つ) hito(tsu). Should be either 一 yī = 一 ichi for "one" when counting, or 一个 = ひと(つ) hito(tsu) for "one" as in "one (generic counter word)"
* to write (past tense) = 寫 xiě. Just 写 xiě does not imply past tense. The closest Chinese equivalent would be 写了. Makes little sense as example because of the very different grammar between Chinese and the others.
* mother (informal speech) - お母さん okāsan. That stretches the definition of informal speech. Yes, children do use お母さん to address their parents, but in rather "formal" situations.
* personal pronoun (generic) - 私 watashi. Japanese does not have a "generic" personal pronoun. 私 watashi is more generic than others, but it's not universal and it has clear connotations.
* Soup = 湯 tāng = 汁 shiru. Misleading, because chin. 汁 zhī = "juice" and jap. 汁 shiru = "1. juice 2. soup" while jap. 湯 yu = "1. hot water 2. hot bath". "hot water" is the historic meaning of the character 湯. As in a number of other cases, Japanese kanji preserved a historic meaning while Mandarin Chinese shifted. In other words, 湯 did mean hot water when the character came to Japan. The meaning of "soup" later superseded "hot water" in China.
The general problem with the examples is that easy English words like "one", "I" or "mother" don't necessarily have easy translations in other languages. Pretty much all of the examples could be used to illustrate interesting differences, historic meaning shifts and corner cases, but they don't make good general examples. --Mkill (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding nation and one, yes there are both sinoxenic and native ways of saying those words in Japanese and Korean, however the table shows the native word. For instance, "carrot" in Korean can be 당근 danggeun (Sinoxenic, 唐根) or 홍무 hongmu (native). Since the table demonstrates native lexicon, it would include hongmu as the word for carrot, and not danggeun. Same goes for ichi and hitotsu. The table is essentially a listing of the kun'yomi readings (and Korean/Vietnamese equivalents of what would be "kun'yomi") as opposed to on'yomi for "nation" and "one". In Korean, one can be used as 一 il (e.g. when reading a phone number), or hana (when counting something); Korean numerals, Japanese numerals and Vietnamese numerals list both native and Sinoxenic numbering systems for the respective languages. As for mother and the pronoun, this is problematic, I agree. Feel free to fix this up if you can. Perhaps a better way of saying mother would be "everyday speech", i.e. as opposed to extremely formal language such as Chinese 母亲 muqin. What "generic" meant to represent for the pronouns was "one example of any sort of commonly used pronoun", but it might have been a poor way of describing it. For "to write", it's kind of difficult to explain the difference in grammar between Chinese and the rest, do you have an idea in particular regarding how to fix this issue? And regarding soup, in modern Chinese lexicon, 湯 is (pretty much) only used as soup and 汁 is only used as juice, whereas it is a different case for Japanese. Mind you, 湯/탕 tang is also used in Sino-Korean, for example, Seolleongtang, Yukgaejang, Samgyetang, Gamjatang, Maeuntang. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:56, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues with the native examples 

message: The Vietnamese column of the table shouldn't be restricted to the Saigon dialect, as it contains vocab that is not primarily used in South Vietnam, e.g. mẹ. The Saigon variant would be má. And some of the examples are just not Sino-xenic, e.g. 学／學 is pronounced xué in Mandarin, but hok6 in Cantonese and similarly in other Southern dialects. Thus the Vietnamese học sinh is perfectly Sinic, this might be true for the other (Korean, Japanese) language examples, too. I just find the table to be very confusing. Nước mắm ngon quá! (talk) 19:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. It is implied that học sinh is perfectly Sinic, and that it is cognate with 学生/xuesheng/gakusei/etc. It essentially agrees with what you just said.2. Are you very familiar with the North/South dialects of Vietnamese? If so, feel free to contribute; Wikipedia is a collaborative project between multiple contributors, and one person might be an expert in a field that others aren't, and their assistance would be gladly recieved. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 00:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sino-Xenic examples (table data) 

message: I confess I don't know anything about Ryukyuan, but how are kaagaaudui and kaagaashibai "Sino-Xenic" beyond being written with Chinese characters? The readings don't look Sinitic at all. I am also curious about 唐ん人 tooNchu (on the "native" list) and 御万人 ʻumaNchu (on the "Sino-Xenic" list). 人 chu appears in both, so is this a native word/morpheme or a Sinitic one? Man for 万 looks Sinitic, but then so does too for 唐. And is ʻu for 御 a Sinitic reading? -219.146.77.102 (talk) 08:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just these.  Sino-Xenic refers to the large-scale, systematic importation of Middle Chinese words into Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese.  None of the examples in the article are that; they're either native readings of Chinese characters or modern loans.  Kanguole 11:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sinoxenic Ryukyuan 

message: The following is moved from the article, as these are not Sino-Xenic vocabulary as defined by our sources.  Kanguole 00:16, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-examples of Sino-Xenic 

message: I understand what this editor is trying to say, but human genetics, which is a scientific concept requiring careful genomic studies, and with great social/racial/political implications, should not be used in this careless manner. This ought to be rephrased, into "ethnically different" or something like that. I personally think "linguistically distinct" suffices. Timmyshin (talk) 01:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The text is referring to Genetic relationship (linguistics), not human genetics. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: none of which are genetically related to Chinese

message: There is an obvious error here in the failure to distinguish between Japanese [s] and [ɕ] in loanwords. In native vocabulary one might say that the latter is an allophone of the former but this is most certainly not the case in loanwords. A glaring example of this is giving the initial for 書 /ɕo/ as /s/. Siúnrá (talk) 13:45, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't even know what [ɕ] is supposed to mean in this context.  What's the Hepburn? AnonMoos (talk) 15:20, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese phonemic distinctions lost 

message: I'm curious as to why there is a column for Cantonese but not Hokkien in the table. Those who know the language would realise the similarity to Japanese in its pronunciations of many words (the numbers one to five for instance), as well as other words .  Perhaps add a column to that, or for that matter Wu Chinese. There does not seem to be any obvious reason why it is Cantonese that is used here, when languages like Japanese have links to the Wu region. Hzh (talk) 23:39, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Any number of Chinese varieties could be included, so we need to be selective in order to keep the table manageable, especially as the primary focus should be on the Sino-Xenic forms.  (The tables in the Varieties of Chinese article, on the other hand, have many more columns.)  Clearly Standard Chinese should be there.  Cantonese has a couple of advantages for the present purpose: it faithfully preserves all the final consonants of Middle Chinese, and it is likely to be the next most familiar variety to the English-speaking audience of enwiki.  Hokkien in particular features some innovations that would make the comparison with Sino-Xenic forms more confusing: the split between final stops and final glottal stop, the split between final nasal consonants and nasalization of the vowel, and the denasalization of some nasal initials to yield voiced initials.  Several of the similarities with Japanese noted in the Epoch Times article are due to much later borrowing from Japanese, which is quite separate from the topic of this article.  Kanguole 00:55, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps its inclusion could be explained better in the article, although it seems like it could be covered by Vietnamese, whose similarity to Cantonese is obvious given their proximity geographically. Hzh (talk) 10:37, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

text:  Just adding that here   it says that Japanese pronunciation has similarity to Hokkien because Hokkien preserves a lot of Han to Sung pronunciations, particularly Tang. Seems like it makes more sense to add a column on Hokkien rather than Cantonese, you can't really see much of the relationship of Cantonese to Japanese compared to Hokkien. Hzh (talk) 23:32, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hokkien and Wu? 

message: The table with Sound correspondences is missing three initials of Middle Chinese (娘 ɳ; 俟 ʐ; 以 j) as well as their correspondences in the other languages.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.227.189.180 (talk • contribs) 12:28, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing initial consonants 

message: There is a variation between *p in Middle Chinese and *t in modern Vietnamese. Compare:
比 /piɪ/
+Chinese: bǐ
+Japanese: hi
+Korean: bi
+Vietnamese: tỉ
必 /piɪt̚/
+Chinese: bì
+Japanese: hichi/hitsu
+Korean: pil
+Vietnamese: tất 2405:4800:6A16:DCE2:84D1:7DBF:9C16:C525 (talk) 05:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added notes about this. Kanguole 13:15, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  *p -> t 

message: @DelusionalThomaz515610, could you please explain your recent removal of a lot of material from the article, specifically
* a lot of coverage of Sino-Vietnamese
* cited material regarding the lack of clarity of the origin of go-on readings
as well as the change of a lot of phonetic values, + the removal of Frellesvig entirely. Remsense留 21:28, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a second revert to DT's version of December 2022. The aim appears to be to remove Sino-Vietnamese, with removal of intervening edits an incidental side-effect. However, the scope of Sino-Xenic has always been Sino-Japanese, Sino-Korean and Sino-Vietnamese, ever since it was introduced in Martin (1953) p. 4, and echoed by many authors since, e.g. Norman (1988) p. 34, Baxter (1992) p. 13 and Miyake (2004) p. 98. Kanguole 22:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent rewriting and removal 

message: I'm very unfamiliar with this topic, so it's not unlikely that this is the result of some convention, but: why are the first representation of the Old Japanese vowels in the Background section given in italics but not the second set? Quoted below
:Similarly, the distinction between grades III and IV made by the Late Middle Chinese rime tables has disappeared in most modern varieties, but in Kan-on, grade IV is represented by the Old Japanese vowels i1 and e1 while grade III is represented by i2 and e2.
Should this be normalized so both sets are italicized or both or not? Or is this typesetting meaningful? Determinerteeth (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference isn't meaningful, just a mistake. Kanguole 22:40, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italics for Japanese vowels 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Moved supported consensus to the alternate proposed title Sino-Xenic vocabularies. (non-admin closure) Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 10:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sino-Xenic pronunciations →  – This article would seem mighty shallow if it were merely about phonology, surely it's also about the morphemes in the context of the sinographosphere? Remsense诉 14:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject China and WikiProject Linguistics have been notified of this discussion.  ASUKITE 16:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 14 May 2024 

message: I have reverted the addition of 5 columns of Min and Hakka forms to the "Examples of Sino-Xenic readings" table, because they squeeze out the actual subject of the table (and of the article as a whole), the Sino-Xenic forms. Kanguole 14:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples table