Talk:Lists of atheists/Archive 4

message: I'm not convinced Gautama Buddha belongs in this list. Even if he denied the existence of the Western conception of God, it appears that he believed that other deities were real. I've solicited opinions from editors more familiar with Buddhism here: Talk:Buddhism#Was Gautama Buddha an atheist. Nick Graves 21:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After reading the discussion here, I think Gautama Buddha doesn't belong on this list. He denied the existence of a Western type of God, but asserted the existence of other deities (devas). Also, since he did not write anything down himself, and words attributed to him were not written down for several hundreds years after his death, it is difficult to know definitively what his historical views really were on the subject. Nick Graves 17:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gautama Buddha

message: I added Billy Joel, the well known American musical artist.  He's mentioned being an atheist a few times in interviews and in his lyrics. Lx Rogue 04:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billy Joel 

message: Edit: In addition John Lennon should be a part of this list under musicians.  He also stated in his lyrics that he was an atheist.
Well he almost definitely was one, but is there a good enough source?Lx Rogue 05:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even so, a source is needed. I removed Lennon from that category until a source is found. Nick Graves 03:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: John Lennon

message: I saw someone earlier put Peter Atkins there, but then someone else removed it because it didn't have source. I was googling and I found a source here: http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Peter_William_Atkins, a quote from him: "My aim is to argue that the universe can come into existence without intervention, and that there is no need to invoke the idea of a Supreme Being in one of its numerous manifestations." So I tried to add him in, but the citation thing seemed complicated, etc., so yeah. I'm not sure if this source is good enough, but if it is, I guess someone else can add him? Also, is the list supposed to be in alphabetical order (by last name of course)? Because a lot of it isn't.... Thanks, Nathansbenjamin 21:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From that quote alone, we cannot definitively identify Atkins as an atheist. Also, quotes from celebatheists cannot be added unless they are attributed to their original source (the magazine, book, newspaper article, etc. in which he was originally quoted). The names are supposed to be divided by primary occupation, then alphabetized, but not everyone who adds a name has adhered to this. Help alphabetizing would be much appreciated. Nick Graves 02:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peter Atkins 

message: I know for a fact that he’s atheist. I keep adding him to the list and it gets removed every time. Here’s a link:
http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Jack_Nicholson
:On that page, Nicholson is reported as saying "I don't believe in God now..." That's not enough to be sure he's an atheist. Find a reliable source that identifies him as an atheist, and he'd be a fine addition to the list. Nick Graves 21:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: NNDB is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. An article from a reputable newspaper or magazine would be a good source, or an article found on CNN.com or similar reputable news website. Biographies are also a good place to look. NNDB's vetting process is not as reliable as that used by more mainstream news sources. Nick Graves 02:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jack Nicholson

message: Is this enough proof? http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Jodie_Foster
:They're a Wiki.  It would be a case of the blind leading the blind if we directly cited them.  I doubt anyone archives Good Morning America in a way accessible to the public, or HBO specials for that matter.  We COULD use that first cite, but I'd only be comfortable with using it if we could get someone to go on the record and say "Yes, I have read the original article and can certify that the quote is accurate." Chris Croy 21:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jodie Foster?

message: Marie Curie does not appear to satisfy the article's definition of self-identified atheists, The only "source" given is a brief, reference-free biography at womenshistory.about.com, hardly an authoritative source. Also, Curie is already on the Talk:List of atheists/Rejected list, and there has been no discussion about re-adding her. Hqb 18:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The list criteria is not as restrictive as you say. Persons identified as atheists by reliable sources may be listed here. That Curie was previously rejected does not mean that Curie may not be added later if a reliable source is found for her being an atheist. I share your concern about the quality of the About.com source, and would not object to removing her unless and until something more definitive is found. Nick Graves 18:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, if justified by a reputable source, by all means she should be added back. But I have been unable to find anything reliably indicating that she considered herself an atheist, or was otherwise known to be one. The article about her at the Freedom From Religion Foundation (used as a reference for many other atheism entries here) calls her an agnostic. The quote they give (presumably the strongest they could find), “Pierre belonged to no religion and I did not practice any.” also doesn't indicate a strong disbelief in the existence of God. Given the strongly worded preamble of the list, I think the criteria for inclusion should be correspondingly strict: if a person has not explicitly self-identified as an atheist, they should not be included without very good reason. Hqb 19:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marie Curie 

message: If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph: 
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC
"Vonnegut's Blues For America" Sunday Herald (7 January 2006)
===Response concerning Vonnegut's atheism===
Using this source to conclude that Vonnegut sincerely believed in a God, and was therefore not an atheist is, I believe, based on an an overly literal and naive interpretation of the Blues for America essay, and illustrative of one of the pitfalls of interpreting primary sources without examining the context provided by other sources. Vonnegut's self-identification as an atheist, humanist and freethinker is substantiated by many quotes and secondary sources throughout his career, and this single figurative paragraph from an essay is hardly indicitive of some sort of dramatic turnaround and embracement of theism.       
From the context of this essay alone, it's clear that Vonnegut is not presenting a serious proof of the existence of God, but is making a comment about how much he appreciates music. The paragraphs immediately preceding and following the imaginary epitaph show that the greatness of music is his topic. The epitaph is a literary device used to express his point about music, not a sincere profession of belief in God. Later in this same essay Vonnegut says "And by the grace of God, or whatever, I am not an alcoholic..." The flippant addition of the or whatever shows that Vonnegut speaks of "God" figuratively, but does not commit himself to genuine belief in God.
Vonnegut was a Unitarian (or more specifically, a Unitarian Universalist, or UU).   Anyone familiar with UUs will know that many of them are accustomed to using theistic language symbolically, without themselves being theists. In such cases, the word "God" is taken not to represent a supernatural being as it is in theistic worldviews, but some abstraction, such as supreme goodness, or harmony with nature or humanity, love, or any number of other ideals. As a member of several UU congregations, I have witnessed many members who identified themselves as atheists who nevertheless spoke of "growing into harmony with the Divine," or who wholeheartedly sang songs about God. Speaking of "God," yet being nontheistic in outlook, is a common phenomenon among UUs, and one must be very cautious about assuming what a UU believes based on the theistic language they might use.
Vonnegut has a long history of using theistic language, even as he identified himself as an atheist, humanist or freethinker. Take this excerpt from a commencement speech, for example: "You have just heard an atheist thank God not once, but twice. And listen to this: God bless the class of 1974."  Clearly, Vonnegut was prone to speaking of God as if he actually believed in him, even though he identified himself as an atheist.
The phrase "[i]f I should ever die, God forbid" in the Blues for America essay is a word-for-word recycling of a phrase he used in an address to members of the American Humanist Association for a memorial service for fellow humanist Isaac Asimov--an address of which he spoke in his latest book, A Man Without a Country:
:“We had a memorial service for Isaac a few years back, and I spoke and said at one point, ‘Isaac is up in heaven now.’ It was the funniest thing I could have said to an audience of humanists. I rolled them in the aisles. It was several minutes before order could be restored. And if I should ever die, God forbid, I hope you will say, ‘Kurt is up in heaven now.’ That’s my favorite joke.” 
Why was this statement of Vonnegut's so funny to himself and his audience? It is because, as humanists, they do not believe in an afterlife, or in a God who sends people to heaven. When Vonnegut speaks of heaven or God, he does so with a wink. He speaks of God figuratively, ironically, or for humorous effect.
Here's another example, spoken by Vonnegut during an appearance on The Daily Show in support of his book A Man Without a Country (the same book from which the Blues for America essay was excerpted):
:"I do feel that evolution is being controlled by some sort of divine engineer. I can't help thinking that. And this engineer knows exactly what he or she is doing and why, and where evolution is headed. That's why we've got giraffes and hippopotami and the clap." 
That last example of divine engineering ("the clap") shows that Vonnegut's "endorsement" for intelligent design is only tongue-in-cheek. Vonnegut does not really believe there is some sort of intelligent, benevolent Creator guiding evolution, and his humorous mention of this noxious organism shows it.
Finally, there is the matter of Vonnegut's organizational affiliations, which belies the allegations about his latter-day conversion to God-belief. Until his death, Vonnegut was the honorary president of the American Humanist Association (AHA), an organization that promotes a naturalistic and nontheistic lifestance (humanism), and whose members consider themselves atheists or agnostics.  He was also a member of the Council for Secular Humanism's International Academy of Humanism, which promotes the same naturalistic, nontheistic lifestance as AHA.  If Vonnegut had really renounced his atheism and become a God-believer, he most probably would have ended his affiliation with these organizations. His continued membership and prominent roles in these organizations is a strong testament to his continued atheism. Nick Graves 21:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am making a change based on this 

message: Using this source to conclude that Vonnegut sincerely believed in a God, and was therefore not an atheist is, I believe, based on an an overly literal and naive interpretation of the Blues for America essay, and illustrative of one of the pitfalls of interpreting primary sources without examining the context provided by other sources. Vonnegut's self-identification as an atheist, humanist and freethinker is substantiated by many quotes and secondary sources throughout his career, and this single figurative paragraph from an essay is hardly indicitive of some sort of dramatic turnaround and embracement of theism.       
From the context of this essay alone, it's clear that Vonnegut is not presenting a serious proof of the existence of God, but is making a comment about how much he appreciates music. The paragraphs immediately preceding and following the imaginary epitaph show that the greatness of music is his topic. The epitaph is a literary device used to express his point about music, not a sincere profession of belief in God. Later in this same essay Vonnegut says "And by the grace of God, or whatever, I am not an alcoholic..." The flippant addition of the or whatever shows that Vonnegut speaks of "God" figuratively, but does not commit himself to genuine belief in God.
Vonnegut was a Unitarian (or more specifically, a Unitarian Universalist, or UU).   Anyone familiar with UUs will know that many of them are accustomed to using theistic language symbolically, without themselves being theists. In such cases, the word "God" is taken not to represent a supernatural being as it is in theistic worldviews, but some abstraction, such as supreme goodness, or harmony with nature or humanity, love, or any number of other ideals. As a member of several UU congregations, I have witnessed many members who identified themselves as atheists who nevertheless spoke of "growing into harmony with the Divine," or who wholeheartedly sang songs about God. Speaking of "God," yet being nontheistic in outlook, is a common phenomenon among UUs, and one must be very cautious about assuming what a UU believes based on the theistic language they might use.
Vonnegut has a long history of using theistic language, even as he identified himself as an atheist, humanist or freethinker. Take this excerpt from a commencement speech, for example: "You have just heard an atheist thank God not once, but twice. And listen to this: God bless the class of 1974."  Clearly, Vonnegut was prone to speaking of God as if he actually believed in him, even though he identified himself as an atheist.
The phrase "[i]f I should ever die, God forbid" in the Blues for America essay is a word-for-word recycling of a phrase he used in an address to members of the American Humanist Association for a memorial service for fellow humanist Isaac Asimov--an address of which he spoke in his latest book, A Man Without a Country:
:“We had a memorial service for Isaac a few years back, and I spoke and said at one point, ‘Isaac is up in heaven now.’ It was the funniest thing I could have said to an audience of humanists. I rolled them in the aisles. It was several minutes before order could be restored. And if I should ever die, God forbid, I hope you will say, ‘Kurt is up in heaven now.’ That’s my favorite joke.” 
Why was this statement of Vonnegut's so funny to himself and his audience? It is because, as humanists, they do not believe in an afterlife, or in a God who sends people to heaven. When Vonnegut speaks of heaven or God, he does so with a wink. He speaks of God figuratively, ironically, or for humorous effect.
Here's another example, spoken by Vonnegut during an appearance on The Daily Show in support of his book A Man Without a Country (the same book from which the Blues for America essay was excerpted):
:"I do feel that evolution is being controlled by some sort of divine engineer. I can't help thinking that. And this engineer knows exactly what he or she is doing and why, and where evolution is headed. That's why we've got giraffes and hippopotami and the clap." 
That last example of divine engineering ("the clap") shows that Vonnegut's "endorsement" for intelligent design is only tongue-in-cheek. Vonnegut does not really believe there is some sort of intelligent, benevolent Creator guiding evolution, and his humorous mention of this noxious organism shows it.
Finally, there is the matter of Vonnegut's organizational affiliations, which belies the allegations about his latter-day conversion to God-belief. Until his death, Vonnegut was the honorary president of the American Humanist Association (AHA), an organization that promotes a naturalistic and nontheistic lifestance (humanism), and whose members consider themselves atheists or agnostics.  He was also a member of the Council for Secular Humanism's International Academy of Humanism, which promotes the same naturalistic, nontheistic lifestance as AHA.  If Vonnegut had really renounced his atheism and become a God-believer, he most probably would have ended his affiliation with these organizations. His continued membership and prominent roles in these organizations is a strong testament to his continued atheism. Nick Graves 21:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Response concerning Vonnegut's atheism

message: first of all, excuse my english:
question:
according to "List of Atheists" from 2005, Zoran Djindjic (1952-2003) - Serbian philosopher, politician, statesman and former Prime Minister, assasinated.were on the list. Now, his name is removed, and can't find the reason why? 
All the best  
91.150.101.92 13:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All entries in the list must reference reliable sources, which was apparently not the case for Djindjic. If there is a verifiable quote of Djindjic referring to himself as an atheist, or otherwise denying the existence of God(s); or if there is substantial other evidence that he was an atheist, he should of course be added back. A quick Google search does not turn up any likely sources, though. Hqb 15:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  atheist list? 

message: This series (available on youtube) identifies Arthur Miller, Colin McGinn and Steven Weinberg as atheists.  McGinn self-identifies as an 'anti-theist' in addition to an atheist.
I know that Arthur Miller is not included in this list, so I suggest that he should be added.
:I will take a look at those tapes and add some names as I have time. Thanks for bringing this up. Nick Graves 02:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Atheism Tapes 

message: can someone add him i do know how  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.106.210.177 (talk) 04:46, August 22, 2007 (UTC) 
:He's already in the list. Nick Graves 05:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ricky Gervais

message: Good 'eavans, as you British folks say, you have left out the whole Italian Risorgimento movement!!
Many of the major figures were atheists (most of the others were anti-CAtaholic, anti-ecclestiacal deistic skeptic types). I have added a few of the more obvious names. There is also a lot missing in other areas. I'll mention one name I think should be included, but is controversial: Wallace 
Stevens. Just read the damned poetry carefully enough and you'll find that rejection of God and acceptance of life and art as substiute (niethzean influence is obvious) is the central theme.--Francesco Franco 11:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Italian atheism

message: I have added several people on List of atheists. Several people who clearly said that they don't believe in God were listed on List of nontheists. That's problematic. 
Nontheism is not recorded in notable dictionaries as of 2007. Thus, only those people who have identified themselves as a nontheist should be included on that list. Otherwise, WP:OR will be violated. The correct definition of nontheist is someone who rejects the concept of theistic God. Thus, people who say "I don't believe in God" must be listed on this list. RS1900 08:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: People who say "I don't believe in God" are nontheists, since they reject the concept of a theistic God, along with all of the impersonal and other concepts of God. There is no original research in this. There are competing definitions for "atheist," some of which exclude those who merely disbelieve in God. That's why those who say "I don't believe in God" aren't to be listed here unless a reliable source calls them an atheist. Nick Graves 21:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am busy right now. I will discuss later. RS1900 13:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn’t understand the rule properly. I joined Wikipedia in July, 2007. That’s why I made the error. Thank you. RS1900 04:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The word nontheism is not recorded in notable dictionaries as of 2007. There is a problem. I don't want discussions right now. RS1900 05:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From the Oxford English Dictionary: "non-theist, n. A person who is not a theist." Also: "non-theistic, adj. Not having or involving a belief in God, esp. as a being who reveals himself to humanity." Nick Graves 21:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  From that list to this list 

message: What about Angelina Jolie, Bill Gates, Bruce Lee, Larry Flynt, Asia Carrera? I'm sure that there are much more famous people who are not in this article  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.100.247 (talk) 18:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of those (except Bruce Lee, I think) have been on the list at some point. The problem was that no reliable sources as yet have been found identifying them as atheists. Nick Graves 21:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think some of them are atheists. Here, a reliable source is needed. They should be identifed as an atheist by a reliable source. Jai Raj K 07:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I miss some people 

message: And I'm not sure how to do it myself. I am the author of the article that is referenced there, and the link is actually to a (badly edited) reprint of the original article, which can be found here. I would prefer that the link go to the article that didn't get butchered. Drostova 10:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Cheers, Ian Rose 13:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Heh, you don't want much do you?!  No prob, my colleague SwitChar has taken care of that... Cheers, Ian Rose 07:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Always a pleasure to help. Have you written any other articles which might be of use, perchance? ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 08:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnote 164 needs changing 

message: As a "List of atheists" I don't see myself or anyone I know on there.  Perhaps the page could be more specific with the qualifier famous or notable.--68.236.251.175 01:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On these lists, it is usually presumed that all those listed are notable, so such a name change shouldn't be necessary. There are some lists that include the "notable" qualifier in the title, but that is not the general practice. Nick Graves 03:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Naming conventions for specifics. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 11:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Famous Atheists 

message: I have taken the liberty of moving discussion from the list of rejected people to the main talk page. I believe this is a more appropriate spot for it. See two sections below. Nick Graves 15:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion from ''Rejected'' page

message: (Pardon if this is the wrong context to do this, but I'm new to Wikipedia.)
Just thought I'd throw this out there: Bill Maher isn't an atheist.
In a 2002 article by The Onion AV Club titled "Is There A God?" Maher was one of many celebrities asked the title question. His response is as follows:
I think there is. We did a show last night about God and religion with Dave Foley, who I love, and we were arguing against this one woman who had a book called I Like Being Catholic. Someone said, 'Oh, boy, a lot of atheists on this panel.' I said, 'I'm not an atheist. There's a really big difference between an atheist and someone who just doesn't believe in religion. Religion to me is a bureaucracy between man and God that I don't need. But I'm not an atheist, no.' I believe there's some force. If you want to call it God... I don't believe God is a single parent who writes books. I think that the people who think God wrote a book called The Bible are just childish. Religion is so childish. What they're fighting about in the Middle East, it's so childish. These myths, these silly little stories that they believe in fundamentally, that they take over this little space in Jerusalem where one guy flew up to heaven—no, no, this guy performed a sacrifice here a thousand million years ago. It's like, 'Who cares? What does that have to do with spirituality, where you're really trying to get, as a human being and as a soul moving in the universe?' But I do believe in a God, yes."
The article can be found online here: http://www.theonionavclub.com/feature/index.php?issue=3837&f=1
I'm a big Bill Maher fan and an atheist myself, but in the interest of accuracy and integrity I think his name should definately be removed from the list.
:Be my guest. Move the entry and this comment to the /Rejected subpage.  --Pablo D. Flores 17:15, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bill Maher