Talk:Muhammad/Archive 9

message: I think the spelling Mahomet is much more impressive, is it possible to change the article accordingly? Lapinmies 19:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Muhammad" is a far more accurate and superior rendering of the arabic (per WP:AMOS). on what basis do you believe the rendering "Mahomet" to be "much more impressive"? ITAQALLAH 19:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Whilst alternative names may deserve a mention, an article's name should be the common spelling used within the english speaking part of the community in question. Hence muhammad stays. LinaMishima 20:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not English speaking community but even in Pakistan "Muhammad" is offical spelling of Muhammad. It also sound good as well as I can tell. --- ابراهيم 00:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not censored, and it is understanding to all beliefs, not just those of a single religion. Muhammad is only the last prophet leading people to truth in the eyes of the religion of Islam. Christians most certainly do not believe this, nor do buhdists or atheists. We must represent all view points fairly, giving none undue weight. Please seeWP:NPOV. As such, the addition of (pbuh) after his name is also discouraged, as this is a distinct POV towards needing to venerate him. We ask that personal religious views be set aside in the name of a fair and even documentation. LinaMishima 01:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

text: WIkipedia does not have POV splits for articles. All articles are written as if from the perspecitive of someone who has no prior knowledge of a subject at all and is looking to see what everyone believes. Please stop performing POV edits. LinaMishima 01:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No worries LinaMishima, I guess he is new here. He will learn with the passage of time. Remember do not bite? LionofTruth, we should try to develop article which are acceptable for all believes of people. I think it is possible but yes difficult. --- ابراهيم 02:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MAHOMET

message: There is evedence that his then wife (forgot her name) did not remember her age. there is substantial proof that she was at least 15 . Zazaban 18:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen no real evidence that Mohammed himself was an active homosexual, though he certainly included statements in the Koran to encourage homosexuals to join Islam - whether this was cynicism on his part we simply cannot tell. He was most certainly a paedophile, however - he married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9. True, all Arabs were doing this sort of thing at the time - that doesn't make it right of course. And as a leader, Mohammed was in a position to change things. That he chose not to speaks volumes. TharkunColl 23:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It's extrapolation based on Aisha's statements that she was 6 at the time of marriage and 9 at the time of the consummation of her marriage, which would indicate that he had sex with what we, today, would consider a child. By many definitions, that would place him within the category of "pedophile," though not under all definitions. The majority of early Muslim sources have the earlier age; a minority of sources suggest a later age. There's a link from the main article that explains the matter in more depth. Whether you choose to believe the later date or the earlier date is up to you; however, it goes a great deal toward a consideration of Muhammad's credibility, and reasonable people do believe that Muhammad was tainted morally by that early marriage. As for removing it from the talk page, that generally isn't a good idea; it'll go into an archive the next time the talk page gets too big, which will probably be in the next few weeks. Captainktainer * Talk 19:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muhammad was not a pedophile. 

message: Any attempt at polemicizing and (esp. inflamatory) off-topic comments are a misuse of this talk page, and will be subject to censur. Please ensure that this talk page usage is limited to practical suggestions on how to improve the article. Thanks. El_C 08:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Polemics are not permitted

message: What a mess of an article poor grammar, inconsistent use of diferent spellings for the same word. I will put a clean up tag on it. Appalling article. 86.137.231.53 08:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno. Maybe she was an exception. send an email to the scholars who claimed that and ask them about it. --Aminz 22:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What a mess

message: The views of historians re Mhmd ought not be lumped in with the views of other religions as "non-Muslim views". This is supposed to be a somewhat scholarly article & the views of scholars (many of whom might NOT actually be non-Muslim) deserve a prominent place in the article - a section of its own near the top. --JimWae 05:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, BUT I dunno what to do.... I feel that the academic POV should flow together with the Muslim POV and not mentioned at the end of the article. --Aminz 08:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historians' views 

message: Re edit by Aminz: rv vandalism; Mahomet is the scottish form of Mahound meaning "the prince of darkness", a term used in the past by Christian authors to villify Muhammad. It has no place here). Really? Can this be verified, I can't find anything verifying that this is simply a term for vilification. --144.131.66.58 07:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'll add references to this in a minute. --Aminz 08:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added the ref. I think this term was not always used for vilifying Muhammad though.  --Aminz 09:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These terms are discussed in the main articles Mahound, non-islamic view of muhammad etc.--Tigeroo 10:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mahound==redlink, where is it discussed? Why is this information not included in the Mahomet article which simply states that it is "A Medieval Latin and French spelling of Muhammad", is Mahomet really a problem word to be removed? --144.131.66.58 11:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mahomet 

message: It's not true that the Qur'an is the main source of information on Muhammad's life. If you only had the Qur'an it'd be next to impossible to figure out what went on. The sira and hadith are the main sources. Who made this change and why?Opiner 22:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Main Sources

message: Zazaban says he honestly doesn't see why we need a picture of the caliphate. Hmm, could it be because Muhammad founded the Caliphate? Is that a good answer?Opiner 23:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any one Arab or non-Arab could be Caliph. If in the beginning that was Arab then so what? Islam do not differentiate between Arab and non-Arab (according to Muhammad teaching -- see Muhammad last Haj address). --- ابراهيم 01:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali were early Muslims (earlies people converted to Islam) and most respacted people around. Uttomans were non-Arab and as such there is no rule prohibting non-Arab to be caliphate. ---- ابراهيم 01:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Who say that Umayyads were consider continuation of previous calipahte?? The true calipate end at Ali, after that only the stronger become the Calip. However, Muslims do not divide people on race. It is the golden rule of my religion, so anyone can be a potential Caliph (of any race). See my User page, it start with Muhammad's most important address to Ummah at his last Haj before death. --- ابراهيم 01:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Err, Thats a bizarre take on history. The primary method of deciding the Rashidun was through Shura, whereas after the Caliphate of Ali it was decided on by chance of birth. Further, the new religion was not "imposed" on the people of Damascus, or other areas in the Middle East, indeed, it took over three hundred years before Islam was established in the region as the religion of the majority. --Irishpunktom\talk 10:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, Shura, If you didn't know that most basic of things you should not be editing here. Two of the last three U.S presidents were related by blood, does that make the US less democratic? Yes, the Shura concil decided on electing people close to Muhammad, presumeably because they, being closer, had a better knowledge of the Sunnah, whatever their reasons, it was still a Shura council!
I know exactly what you mean by Shura and Im saying you are candy-coating it. Consultation here is among a small clique of insiders certainly not all arabia or why immediate rebellion if they were such a part of the process? Even among just the insiders if there was so much cooperation and agreement why did the party of Ali feel dissed from the beginning and why were the last three assasinated? It really means no system and like other places where theres no system in practice it means intrigue and strife. "If you dont know that most basic of things you should not nbe editing here". Sunni like to hold this period up as a model so have to overlook all these inconveniences.Opiner 19:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: There was no Ethnic displacement of the Syrian people, or any other people under the Caliphs. The white Europeans who commited the genocide of the Native Americans did not rule over the native Population in one swift period of time, the way Umar and the Rashidun did. Had the white Europeans been as powerfull as Umar you would, no doubt, have had your swift massacre.  The spread of Islam through the Rashidun where not out of a desire to conquer the world.  They were primarilly political, and primarily aimed at the Byzantines and the Persians. 
My point is you cant just say it took centuries for conversion so Islam must not have not imposed. Asking for tribute is one thing, conversion another. Subjugated peoples agreed to pay tribute but to ask for more would mean revolt AND less revenue. They did what they could in stages. Even if majority is non-muslim if there is dhimma reliation that is imposing Islam because the other religions and only approved ones have to operate in a framework of Islamic law and polity. Islam provides for exactly that relationship. Muslims became the ruling elites and that is a first stage in the spread of Islam.Opiner 20:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Muhammad is venerated as the last Prophet of Allah by the worlds Muslims all over the world. That new map shows the how far around the world the teachings of Muhammad has spread. Most notably, it includes the worlds largest Muslim nations, Indonesia, Bangla Desh and Pakistan, which the previous map did not. --Irishpunktom\talk 16:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do you have map from Muhammad own life? No. Stop giving "immediate successor" POV thing. Either you mention Muhammad own life map or you mention map of current Muslim states. --- ابراهيم 14:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Caliphate picture

message: Aminz, you say that Shia believe the Khalifata were Muhammad and 12 of his descendants. But that doesn't change the fact that there was an Empire known as the Caliphate does it? Just because you don't think they deserved to succeed MUhammad as the rulers doesn't change that they were in fact the rulers. Please let's keep this in the real world.
You say I am mistaking this article for Historical Muhammad. Well this article like other biographies should be Historical Muhammad. There shouldn't be a seperate article for historical. Maybe you're mistaking this article for Islamic views of Muhammad?
That's the problem here in a nutshellm we can't even decide what the article is about, real Muhammad in the real world or fantasy Muhammad in piety land. In the real world Muhammad founded a religion and an empire. In piety land the religion was already there and taking over the whole middle east is just a minor thing we shouldn't focus on. In the real world there were successors called the Caliphs. In piety world (Shia version at least) they're not REALLY the successors because you use the term successors to mean people who weren't actually the rulers.
Is there any room for reality? Oh yeah, you answered that, Historical Muhammad. No reality in main articles, please.
Now Ibrahimfaisal is censoringmention of the minor trivia that the empire Muhammad founded took over the Middle East. More important to say, Qur'an announces that Islam is the religion of Abraham! But we have no idea what Abraham believed. In the real world, that is. Most people would think that the rhetoric of the Qur'an is actually very unimportant compared to real-world facts. Not on this page.
I want a vote so I can decide whether or not to waste any more time here. Should this article called Muhammad focus first on the historical facts about Muhammad's life, or on what Muslims believe about Muhammad?Opiner 02:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: bemusing that you are talking about "historical fact" when you had been vehemently opposing using the word "idols"! the narrative of the article should be based upon what is verifiable, and be subject to the constraints of NPOV in terms of proportionalisation and expression. muslim documentation on the biography of Muhammad is certainly notable and relevant in this article, and if islamic tradition includes something which secular narrative may not include then of course we can mention both in an acceptable manner. similarly, when narrative in classical/contemporary muslim biographies clashes with the western academic understanding then it is NPOV to mention the divergence and its nature. there are very simple methodologies whereby we can include all notable perspectives. that is how we establish a verifiable article agreeable to most if not all. setting up a "vote" is pointless and divisive, and if it is intended by this to exclude notable, verifiable material, then yes i would think you are probably wasting your time. ITAQALLAH 11:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: you are opposing the use of the word "idols" or idolatry, replacing it with inane verbose descriptions. of course, we can dedicate a portion of the article to pre-islamic arabia describing all the nuances of pagan religion. but any attempt to sweep the word "idols" under the carpet is definitely against the historical facts, and is not going to work. you must understand, it would only be a one-sided "POV" if there is a substantial/notable published view suggesting opposition to the term or reality of "idols", not just if your personal conviction opposes it. and thus far you have refused to produce even one source, while dismissing my sources and continuing to make the same wholesale, unfounded changes to other articles. ITAQALLAH 09:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We all know why is being said 'idols', only to make Meccan religion look worse than Islam which banned it and destroyed its sacred objects. Its not my personal conviction since I dont believe in Meccan religion and if I had a choice between this and Islam would probably choose Islam. Its more about NPOV. Its just not right that the extermination of someone elses religion is being presented as obviously a good thing because they were worshipping filthy IDOLS.Opiner 09:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

text: i can see what you are saying, although i don't agree that the term idols is being used in this context, and i don't believe the tone of the article alludes to how you have interpreted it. ITAQALLAH 10:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we use "statues of Arabian gods" or Icons of Arabian gods, that can address Opiners POV concern and be factually accurate. Just for Opiner's information, the religion was not banned, nor was it particular to Mecca. Nor were the gods housed in Kaaba reported to be merely Meccan gods, but were collected from all over Arabia. The pilgramage to the Kaaba by pagans from all over arabia was important to Mecca, so the gods are more rightly Arabian rather than meccan.--Tigeroo 10:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Real world or piety land?

message: Aminz and other users, can you please start providing exact information, such as page numbers, authorship information, etc. on your sources? Using "Encyclopedia of Islam" as a source is not acceptable as it is not verifiable. —Aiden 02:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --Aminz 03:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! —Aiden 03:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whats wrong with the Encyclopedia of Islam? --Irishpunktom\talk 09:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did I say there was anything wrong with the Encyclopedia of Islam? No, I simply asked that specific pages be provided in references. —Aiden 21:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifiability 

message: (April 20, 1889 – April 30, 1945) was the saviour of the human race from the twin evils of International Jewry and Soviet Bolshevism. He was Chancellor of Germany from 1933, and Führer (Leader) of Germany from 1934 until his final betrayal and heroic suicide in 1945... [etc.].
Can anyone spot what is wrong with this, and more importantly, why? TharkunColl 11:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is a view that is not cited, nor attributed to those that who hold it. If it held to be notable view of him then it contains many facts that deserve mention. Ofcourse if someone disagrees, the same conditions apply to them. Its basic wikipedia, if you need some help click on the box in the nagivation bar and follow the link to community portal for guidlines etc, as well as the help link and featured articles link to help you understand how to contribute well to wikipedia.--Tigeroo 11:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. It is a view of Hitler held only by his followers, which contradicts what historians know to be the truth. If you look at the article on Adolf Hitler you will find that in reality it doesn't start like that at all, and quite rightly so. TharkunColl 15:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This article does not lead with "Muhammad, sallalahu aleyhi wasallam, was the mercy for all nations, the unifier the warring Arab tribes and the final the Prophet of God; He orated the word of God, and was a perfect example of how to live your life." - Instead it gives a NPOV entry. --Irishpunktom\talk 16:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Tharkuncoll, if thats what you believe then you need to review WP:NPOV in a little more than cursory fashion.--Tigeroo 22:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it gives a sad whitewash of an intro by using weasel words and other nonsense such as describing what was historically an empire as a "a well organized and armed state". JimWae's version was perfectly neutral and acceptable, but like always a small cabal seems set on misrepresenting and underrepresenting historical fact. —Aiden 20:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Aiden the empire came after, during Muhammads time it was at best a Medinan alliance vs. Meccan alliance, the capture of Mecca resulted in nothing that could be described as a state, that only emerged under Umar and Abu Bakr. Also review the NPOV section on religion, the earlier versions were entire sidelining of Muslims conceptions of Muhammad, and inclusion of some bad factoids.--Tigeroo 22:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I changed it because the version that existed prior to change already had the quote removed, I didn't see any issue with it either being or not being there so I worked of the fact that it was not there. Nothin nefarious--Tigeroo 08:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adolf Hitler 

message: Originally this sentence said that Islam is based on the Qur'an and in Muhammad's life as recounted in sira and hadith which is true. Since then its been changed to, the main sources for Muhammad's life are Qur'an sira and hadith. Qur'an doesn't say much about Muhammad's life though does it? I asked this before and no one said anything but I thought Id ask again before correcting it.Opiner 02:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: YES, Encyclopedia of Islam article says so. It is the most important source on the Muhammad's life as it reports many things happened to Muhammad. --Aminz 08:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Asking again is Qur'an really a major source for Muhammads life?

message: Once again, Allah appears only once in the article & not until nearly the end -- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=prev&oldid=77461795#Depictions_of_Muhammad This cannot stay this way --JimWae 02:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  God & Allah 

message: The is doing three main changes. 
#. Taking out Moses from the article. (why?)
#. Puting "SAID/CLAIM" thing everywhere in "Islamic traditions" section.
#. Replacing "idols" with "gods" everywhere.
He is doing those same changes again and again. --- ابراهيم 08:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opiner changes