Talk:Piano Sonata No. 12 (Mozart)

message: "a classic example of a fake-out of an essential expositional closure half-cadence postmedial caesura extending the secondary theme zone and deferring the essential expositional closure to the next perfect authentic cadence." Not having the original book (nor am I willing to pay $72 to get it), I have to ask, is this really what it says? Initially I suspected vandalism, but this is essentially the text as originally typed. To 99% of the readers of this article, this passage gets across precisely nothing except "we know more about music theory than you do"; even to me, a musician but not an expert in theory, it gets across something only by a lot of difficult labor. I am not saying encyclopedia articles should be dumbed-down, but they should be useful to non-experts. Is there no music theory expert out there who can express this in a way that actually imparts information to the reader? If not, does it not say a lot about our expertise if we can't explain things in a way that even a generally knowledgeable person can understand? 192.251.134.5 (talk) 12:34, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gobbledygook 

message: I would not say the slow movement is in ABA form. Where is the B? It is a simple form with two themes, repeated.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.168.51 (talk) 02:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right.  Zaslaw confirms.  Modified the description. Thanks.DavidRF (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of second movement 

message: The Mozart Project website at the page http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/ko_81_85.html says that the piece was conceived between 1781 and 1783 in either Munich or Vienna (along with K.330 and K.331). Therefore, the information on this page is inconsistent.
Also, I don't see why there should be a description for the first two movements but nothing for the third.
ICE77 (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent date/place and movement descriptions 

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thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: "The second movement is in B-flat major in an elaborately ornamented sonatina form."
What the heck does that mean? I have a Doctorate in music, taught music courses at the college level for a couple of decades and have never heard of a "sonatina form" applied to one movement. Furthermore, the link to "sonatina" does not mention the form of a single movement, only the form of an entire sonatina. I'm guessing the implication is that this movement is in the form described in Sonatina#Form as follows:
"The first (or only) movement is generally in an abbreviated sonata form, with little or no development of the themes...[T]he exposition is followed immediately by a brief bridge passage to modulate back to the home key for the recapitulation."
This is not described in the article as "sonatina form," though, and the movement sounds like a fairly simple 2-part A-B-A1-B1-coda song form to me. The fact that B1 is in the tonic doesn't make it a quasi-sonata form. The way I see it, the rhetoric of the sonata form requires some kind of contrasting/development section, however mild or truncated.
In addition, there's no citation for this sentence. So what should we do about that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sonatina form"