Talk:Malaysian Chinese/Move debate

message: This debate has been split from Talk:Malaysian Chinese; however it is not an archive and technically the debate is still active (though it has died down). Feel free to add your comments at the bottom. cab 22:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

message: This is an indicative vote to try to resolve a naming conflict. 
===Malaysian Chinese===
# It is far more common, it is part of historic institutional titles, e.g. the Malaysian Chinese Association, and there is no grammatical objection to it. Andrew Yong 23:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support this as a compromise. __earth (Talk) 03:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I would oppose for the reasons given above. It is much better to have one article. This vote is only about the title of the article. Within the article, we can use both terms and we can have a whole section devoted to explaining why different people prefer each term. Andrew Yong 10:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Oppose also, as "Malaysian Chinese" is already a common term and there's no need to resort to "Ethnic Chinese in Malaysia".  --- Hong Qi Gong 18:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Oppose - That's too complicated, its like "Ethnic Indians in Malaysia".Bakaman Bakatalk 21:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: # It is far more common, it is part of historic institutional titles, e.g. the Malaysian Chinese Association, and there is no grammatical objection to it. Andrew Yong 23:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Malaysian Chinese

message: # Support Due to grammar and Wikipedia policy. First grammar: Chinese Malaysian describes Malaysian of Chinese descendent. Malaysian Chinese describes Chinese of Malaysian descent, which if it doesn't exist, there would be very few people. The analogy is similar to German American and American German. The former is American of German origin. The former is German of American origin. The two are two different terms to describe two different peoples. Hence, Malaysian Chinese and Chinese Malaysian describe two different peoples. Second Wikipedia policy: It's true that Malaysian Chinese is far more common than Chinese Malaysian in usage. however, Malaysian Chinese, given that reasoning in the first part, might be confusing and misleading. Hence, Wikipedia guide at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names), which I believe supports Chinese Malaysian. Notice that this clause is already a specific statement on Naming convention. The naming convention itself, without that specific clause would on general support Malaysian Chinese instead of Chinese Malaysia. Third: many featured articles on Wikipedia that concerns Malaysian (e.g Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia, Ketuanan Melayu, Second Malaysia Plan links to Chinese Malaysian. In fact, see what links here and observe the linkage to Chinese Malaysian and Malaysian Chinese. Disclosure: some of the pages were linked by me before this dispute arose. __earth (Talk) 02:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chinese Malaysian

message: Another option is to move the page to the descriptive title "Ethnic Chinese in Malaysia" and make both Malaysian Chinese and Chinese Malaysian to redirect to there. Then put a notice at the top Malaysian Chinese redirects here. The term is generally not used to refer to Malaysians in China. or something. I personally feel that's an extremely sub-optimal solution and Oppose, but it's another option that should be out there, so I add this section. cab 02:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support this as a compromise. __earth (Talk) 03:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I would oppose for the reasons given above. It is much better to have one article. This vote is only about the title of the article. Within the article, we can use both terms and we can have a whole section devoted to explaining why different people prefer each term. Andrew Yong 10:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Oppose also, as "Malaysian Chinese" is already a common term and there's no need to resort to "Ethnic Chinese in Malaysia".  --- Hong Qi Gong 18:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Oppose - That's too complicated, its like "Ethnic Indians in Malaysia".Bakaman Bakatalk 21:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic Chinese in Malaysia 

message: Why the article page has been moved to Malaysian Chinese even before the vote hasn't been resolved yet? This is the second time a move for this page has pre-empted debate, both include move to Malaysian Chinese from Chinese Malaysia. __earth (Talk) 02:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any need for page moves until the debate is concluded, but in fairness I believe all that has been done is a cut-and-paste move was fixed - see Wikipedia:How_to_fix_cut_and_paste_moves. The correct way to move a page to its existing redirect page is for an administrator to delete the redirect page and for the page then to be moved as usual. Andrew Yong 09:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In all fairness, it was Chinese Malaysian before you moved it before debate. Twice. I only cut and paste because a usual move doesn't allow proper reversion. Even if the latest move was justified, it still doesn't explain your first move that pre-empted discussion. I'd have been less fiesty if a discussion had came first prior to move. __earth (Talk) 11:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't need anyone's permission to make edits or moves. I have only done so this time to avoid a revert war. Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages Wikipedia:Merging_and_moving_pages Andrew Yong 17:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: Hi Hafiz, the Malaysian Encyclopedia, especially the Languages & Literature, edited by Prof Dato' Dr Asmah Haji Omar, in the chapter - Use of Chinese -, on page 54, 55, is written this way: "...The Chinese dialects spoken in Malaysia have become localized or 'Malaysianized', and are widely used by the Malaysian Chinese in numerous social contexts..." and again "...Malaysian Chinese have become increasingly integrated linguistically..."
The series of Encyclopedia was published with the support by:
* Marina Mahathir, including Tun Dr M.
* Chairman:  Tan Sri Dato Seri Ahmad Sarji bin Abdul Hamid
and members of the board:
* Tan Sri Dato Ahmad Mustaffa Babjee, Puan Azah Aziz, Dr. Peter M Kedir, and many more...
The series was sponsored by:
* DRB-Hicom Bhd, Petronas Berhad, Star Publications, Tenaga Nasional Berhad, Malayan Banking, and many more...
I go for Malaysian Chinese. Not because I followed all the 'big peoples'. Because it sounds very Malaysian, 'Malaysianized' and already accepted by Malaysians.
L joo 17:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Manglish & Grammar

message: There seems to be a lot of confusing about how an Overseas Chinese in a foreign country should be called. Here's my proposal: call all Overseas Chinese that live in a foreign country this name: "Ethnic Chinese in Country X". Although some comment it's suboptimal, it will remove the disambuigation, at least it is clear and people that fill in the term "Chinese Korea" or "Korean Chinese" will arrive at a page where they can choose what they meant. Ethnic Chinese in Korea or Ethnic Koreans in China.
Example: Chinese Korean or Korean Chinese
===Grammar-perspective===
In English language words are composed in this order: adjective + noun.
So: you have a happy Chinese.
1) What if you have one nationality and are born in Korea?
Then you are a Korean (or any other nationality).
2) What if you are born in Korea and your ethnicity is Chinese?
Then you are firstly Korean, you live in Korea! But you are also partly Chinese, although you never had the Chinese nationality. So adjective + noun. You would be a Chinese Korean.
3) Why not the other way around and be a Korean Chinese?
Grammaticly speaking, you would be an ethnic Chinese of Korean descent.
*Comment This is not exactly correct.  Citizenship can be used as an adjective, as in "He is American."  In the case of "Korean Chinese", the "Korean" citizenship can be used as an adjective, and a person's ethnicity, in this case "Chinese" is used as a noun, as in a Chinese person.  So you'd have a Chinese person with Korean citizenship.  Both terms are actually gramatically correct.  That's why we have to depend on common usage here.  --- Hong Qi Gong 16:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guideline for Overseas Chinese Naming Convention 

message: In English language words are composed in this order: adjective + noun.
So: you have a happy Chinese.
1) What if you have one nationality and are born in Korea?
Then you are a Korean (or any other nationality).
2) What if you are born in Korea and your ethnicity is Chinese?
Then you are firstly Korean, you live in Korea! But you are also partly Chinese, although you never had the Chinese nationality. So adjective + noun. You would be a Chinese Korean.
3) Why not the other way around and be a Korean Chinese?
Grammaticly speaking, you would be an ethnic Chinese of Korean descent.
*Comment This is not exactly correct.  Citizenship can be used as an adjective, as in "He is American."  In the case of "Korean Chinese", the "Korean" citizenship can be used as an adjective, and a person's ethnicity, in this case "Chinese" is used as a noun, as in a Chinese person.  So you'd have a Chinese person with Korean citizenship.  Both terms are actually gramatically correct.  That's why we have to depend on common usage here.  --- Hong Qi Gong 16:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar-perspective

message: Some call themselves Chinese Malaysians, other Malaysains Chinese. Although they are both ethnic Chinese living in Malaysia! It could be that their knowledge of grammar is excellent, or it could be subjective and they rather call themselves the way they like. Either way, they are influenced by 2 cultures: the Chinese and Malaysian culture, so at least you would know that. Isn't the multicultural world a beautiful one? So, let's stop discussing names and spent time improving those articles. It's rather useless in my opinion.Deadmaster 13:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another remark: I think the Malaysian translation is like this: "Orang Cina Malaysia": Chinese Malaysian people. Maybe I'm wrong, my Indonesian isn't very well ;).Deadmaster 13:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: General conclusion

message: This talk page needs to be moved back to "Talk:Malaysian Chinese", inline with the article name itself.  --- Hong Qi Gong 00:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This talk page