Talk:Reiki/Archive 1

message: 4/3/2003: This article has some serious flaws. Besides fairly minor NPOV problems (the tone indicates it's all a load of nonsense), there are numerous logical flaws. I suggest a thourough study of inductive reasoning, and the scientific method, which are beyond the scope of this page (you can get started at wiki!). Science can mainly establish the validity of certain beliefs. Inability to show one way or another is a completely different thing altogether.
"Scientists hold that reiki energy simply does not exist. "
No self-respecting scientist can say this. Once, the majority view, consistent with all available empirical research, held that the earth was flat. When the available data made this conclusion unfeasible, the view changed to better fit the data. At that time, people who held the earth was a sphere would have been ridiculed by the ignorant. But cautious scientists of the time could not have dismissed the view, as they did not have enough evidence. Reiki energy may or may not exist. Currently we don't have enough evidence to satisfy scientists, but many people claim to have experienced it. It has been photographed with Kirlian photography, but the validity of this is another debate altogether. So a better phrase would be "Most scientists have not been satisfactorily convinced by the available evidence that reiki energy exists." Holding that something they cannot measure does not exist is a leap most cautious scientists would not take.
"Advocates of reiki therapy claim that have a speacila way to heal the body through this undefined and undectable energy."
No. Advocates of reiki claim that, through the symbols they use and are taught, reiki energy can heal the body. This energy is claimed to be available to  all who are initiated. It isn't undefined, nor is it undetectable (that assumes it doesn't exist, which is obviously the contention here). Not clearly defined, and not measured by traditional scientific methods yes, but this is not the same thing. Advocates and patients claim to sense it through unusual sensations such as heat, cold, vibrations etc.
"Since only believers in Reiki can "sense" Reiki to begin with" 
No. Often the reverse is often the case. People become believers through their own experience. Reiki is not a religion, so the reference to "can be measured and observed by people of any religion, or even people of no religion at all" is not relevant.
--
Well, I reverted some of last changes because I think that the arguments between proponents and opponents of Reiki are quite important part of issue. So for the sake of completness let's state their arguments clear and without watering it down.
Also, let's state that Reiki is a technique not a sect or cult. Even if there is some cult that uses Reiki as part of its doctrine, it doesn't make the technique sectarian or cultist.
Forseti 10:37, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

message: There have been a lot of recent edits to the article from IP 150.101.145.196. While they seem OK, we are going to have to have to start to clearly cite the sources that the info is coming from in the article, as per policy. Again, the edits seem balanced and informative on the whole, but we need to be able to verify the information. Fire Star 02:14, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits, 1 March 2005. 

message: Hi FireStar, I'm from that IP an have been working on Reiki. I haven't registed as yet but will soon. I believe I will be able to cite most of it comprehensively, but I don't wish to do it quite yet. There needs to be a fair amount of improvement in the overall structure of the article, and I'd like to put in some new primary material. Once I've done that, I'll begin citing. The contoversies section unfortunately will not be well cited - much of the controversies aren't documented in primary text form, however I believe I'll be able to find a substantial amount of internet references (which is okay but not my first choice for good sources).
I also feel that the "Theories and practices" passages on the chakras aren't really terribly important - and I am considering removing them entirely. I suspect that there may be a generic wikipedia section on energy healing and the chakra energy system that would be best to link to or move this text there.
I also plan to put in some pictures and japanese characters, as well as a timeline and a comprehensive bibliography.
There also needs to be a much more comprehensive section on Reiki symbols and myths. By clarifying the lingustic origins of the symbols, I believe some (but not all) of these redundant misunderstandings can be avoided. I am however constrained somewhat in that many Western students believe that the Reiki symbols themselves should be kept secret, so don't wish to offend them by explicitly translating the symbols in languages that are clearly not for example, Tibetan or Sanskrit as commonly believed.
I also feel that the article should be somewhat more balanced. I am a Reiki teacher, and have practiced since I was 14 (now in my 19th year of practice). Nonethless, what I take for granted in accepting the supernatural (to some degree) is certainly not the consenual world view, and so I believe that the article should reflect both the reality that most people don't believe in such things, but that others firmly do for good reason. I don't however want the article however getting stuck in conceeding the possible non existent nature of Reiki in every second paragraph, so I feel that the article needs to clear up these points quickly and comprehensively much more early on in the piece - at the moment it seems quite clumsy in this regard. This is where I feel good sources both for and against are the most needed.
I also need to clarify where I write "Reiki however fails the standard test of whether a teaching is Buddhist or not; that of the three "Dharma Seals" or the "Three marks of existence". Reiki may be a Buddhist art in the way that karate-dō or shiatsu is a Buddhist art, but it is absolutely not Buddhist spiritual practice in and of itself. A great many people don't really understand what is and is not Buddhism, so I think I need to really strengthen this part, perhaps with some good Buddhist sources explicitly denying that Reiki is a Buddhist spiritual practice, in much the same way that the Johrei movement denied connection to it in the early 90's, along with the Sai Baba organisation.
I'm also planning a section on the different schools and methods of Reiki with descriptions on their techniques.
May I respectfully suggest that posts regarding this article are made with the intention of improving the article. Merely grinding one's axe (however correct or noble) seems a jolly waste of time when there is so much work to be done
Sean White
:Well, very good, I recognise that it is a work in progress. A nice reference section for citations will improve any article, of course. Cheers, Fire Star 06:34, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to Firestar's comments 

message: Hi Firestar,
Many people have come along and removed so much of the information it seems like an act of vandalism. Merely ommitting information does not seem to me to be an improvement. Paricularily when the ommisions appear to have a bias.
I've reverted the article back to an earlier draft before the gradual deletions began.
I'd gone to a great deal of trouble explaining the origins of the word Reiki, as it is a generic word in Japan, however the person who edited this didn't like this idea, so completely deleted almost all the factual information. Even after this was pointed out many times, the article keeps being changed to fit this incorrect idea. (I should add that I've studied Japanese). Many people also removed almost all of the contraversies section, and biased the article strongly towards the Hawayo Takata school of Reiki. I don't have any particular allegiance to one school or the other, hence the reason why I tried to maintain many views so that the reader could decide for themselves. They deleted the non traditional Reiki sections, the entire bilibliography and the links section too - at no gain to the reader. Further, they didn't explain their efforts in the discussion section here. Much of the text was not written by me, so I had no particular personal attachment to it, however it had obviously had a great deal of effort put into it by others and was well written.
I think that this page is being vandalised rather subtly.
The work that I (and other) had done was built upon other people's submissions, however now I'm presented with a complete rewrite and glossing over of any idea that did not fit into one school of Reiki's opinions. I don't think that this is not what a free encyclopedia should be about. Surely all views can be represented and the reader can decide for themselves!
Is there a way that this article can be flagged so that any major revisions need to be reviewed and approved by an editor before being accepted?
I had logged on to Wikipedia to add references and so forth, but have instead found that someone has undone so much hard work done by many people. I'm terribly disappointed that this section has been quite cleverly sabotaged.
Regards, Sean
:Greetings. Unfortunately there isn't a way to block the article from new edits unless it is obviously being vandalised. It is fine to roll it back, though. The earlier version is adequate as far as I am concerned. If you register for an account, you can put the article on your watchlist and know right away every time you log in if the article has been changed. If you know how to use unicode Japanese characters, they would be a good addition to the article. Fire Star 02:19, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello again. Well, any article that is about a controversial subject is going to experience what I'll call "drift" over time. people notice it and add their two cents here and there. It may well be that someone is pushing their agenda and I don't realise it because I don't know enough about the politics of the subject. How do we avoid this? We have to follow Wikipedia policy, which you have done so far. Having this article on your watchlist and keeping an eye on it will go a long way towards keeping a balanced article. What determines content is therefore the consensus of active editors (including us) and WP policy. In order for anyone to have the consensus see the utility of their contributions, the more citations, the better. Cheers! Fire Star 13:17, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: That's what I was talking about, Sean. Your version of the article was very good but, sincerely, I think you're wasting your time. It is quite obvious that someone that is personally against Reiki, and has nothing better to do in life, is blocking all decent contributions. FleXable 16:42, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion

message: In response to earlier comment, it is not necessary to have a great knowledge of Reiki to spot the flaws in this article. I am familiar with it - indeed know people who practise it - and yet I can recognise when the article is flawed. For example, as well as the over emphasis of controversy surrounding Reiki, the author fails to distinguish between those "quacks" who charge "worrying" amounts of money and those who practice Reiki out of the need to help others and themselves - indeed, this most fundamental theme is not highlighted at all. Reiki is the need to help and heal, regardless of whether it is "scientifically effective" or not. Why bother writing an encyclopaedia article so blatantly biased? That is not the point of an encyclopaedia. The author does not follow the npov guideline, as they put forward one viewpoint which biases the article, as well as the article itself being full of innaccuracies, suppositions and reactionary statements.
As for the part about Reiki promoting Paganism (yes, it's a capital P), that is also biased. Many people who practice Reiki affiliate with Paganism because of their shared theological roots. It does not matter whether the Reiki practitioner is Pagan, Christian, Buddhist or atheist. Religion and Reiki are seperate issues and to suggest they are inextricably linked is preposterous.
This article is riddled with bias, skepticality and (I personally find) insulting references. Bad form, author, and bad form Wikipedia for allowing it on an npov website.
:What is POV is just assuming solely on someone's word that Reiki works the way its proponents say it does, and pushing an article that makes that assumption. We can say that it is popular, we can say that it has this and that style of training and theory, but so far there is no reliable evidence that Reiki itself is any more effective than what can be expected from the placebo effect, and that lack of evidence (and the whacking huge amounts of money charged by Reiki masters) are therefore the most notable and verifiable features of the practise for the general public. Myself, I'm not hostile to the idea that energy can be used to make people feel better since I practise traditional Chinese medicine, but I see, and Reiki demonstrates, no mechanism beyond wishful thinking for generating its claimed effects. In other words, Reiki claims it channels and directs energy, but I and many others have never seen any direct evidence of this energy that points to something happening beyond the salesmanship of its "masters." In my practise, I generate large amounts of heat energy, human energy, by training the martial art aspect of nei chia every day. There is an obvious mechanism for this, though; coordinated, repetitive, physical weight bearing work with the breathing and the metabolism that directs the physical properties of body heat through the body in specific ways. I can easily reproduce that generation at will and show (in person and also by several medical studies that support this) that the energy has a demonstrable physical effect on humans, and I can show my students how to generate that energy for themselves so that they don't need me to touch them. It doesn't come from the "universe," it comes from their own kung fu, their own hard work and discipline. Now, I can't include any of that in the Reiki article, because that would definitely be POV on my part, but what does go in the article is the lack of evidentiary support associated with Reiki. There are also "insulting" (personalising doesn't help establish consensus, BTW), sceptical references included in other New Age-related as well as TCM-related articles, epecially qigong. If we are going to be truly neutral, we have to allow notable alternate views to exist in our articles. 
:As for whether it is pagan or or sorcery or not, while I agree that to be irrelevant, many church groups think it is. Many Buddhists would likely find it heretical as well, just as many more (especially Tantrics) might not. We can only report the notable groups (and provide citations) that have made public pronouncements that they consider the practise pagan. Fire Star 16:25, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subjective Article 

message: As I said earlier, I've have been practicing Reiki for 19 years as I mentioned earlier and I've been a teacher for a long time. In fact, I've been doing it for a lot longer than most. I can also read the symbols and I was one of the first people in the early 90's to do so. I was the first to give a great deal of people the translations that you commonly see nowadays (for instance I gave William Rand his English translations). Of course, at this time the Japanese schools were not yet reconnected to the Western schools. The Japanese schools can only translate the symbols into their everyday wording too - they can't tie them in to the Taoist/Buddhsit terminology quite often as they're passing on second hand teachings.
I've studied and swapped notes with a great deal of Takata's original students, and learnt from one of them originally too. I've also learnt a great deal of other non traditional material. I've found some faults with the Reiki system when practiced - and they are primarily as follows - Reiki students and teachers often make ridiculous claims AND the commonly taught Reiki system is a abridged form of energy healing system that lacks all of the original sources that it was (clearly) derived from. The Japanese lineages aren't very much more informed in many ways. I don't personally discount the uses of Reiki, but I feel that it needs to be appraised rationally and in comparison to other energy healing modalities (particularily the Taoist ones). The abriged Usui system was designed to be used by any person, however it is a simplified form, and not anywhere near as powerful and many practioners believe it to be.
The original and unabridged system of Reiki (the Usui Reiki method) is a system that has the potential for practitioners to store and produce a greater amount of energy, however this earlier and more complete system is not as widely understood at the moment because it's pretty indepth. Even so, the advanced practices certainly aren't miraculous, merely based on other much older systems that are no more remarkable than any other energy/meditation system. Most tai chi practitioners for example aren't experts in the hidden meanings, but they nonetheless call what they practice a Taoist art.
The Catholic Church for instance ocassionally comments on Reiki and discourages this it because it is often coupled with all sorts of mumbo jumbo (although this is not dogma). By dogma I mean it is not a compulsory teaching. Quite often people have their own particular religious beliefs and the couple them along with Reiki and proceed to attempt to try to convince everyone else of the validity of their beliefs and offer the sensations of relaxation etc that commonly accompany a Reiki treatment as proof to validate their particular mystical ideology. This article can't get into every person's Pagan, Shamanic and New Age beliefs with regards to Reiki - it would just take too long and is really off-topic. The article seems to me to be confined to Reiki - and the new age entries can be left to the New agers. The range of these views are too wide, irregular and subjective to easily document (and beyond the scope of Reiki in and of itself). However, I think it is suitable to represent mainstream religious commentary on Reiki - such as the Catholic Church's opinions on it.
Many students and teachers often take a very long time to get beyond the novelty of sensing and chanelling "ki" energy. Reiki's claims are usually much more great that say that of a chi-gong practitioner, and yet the system of ordinary "ki" is just the same energy. In the case of Reiki, the system is wildly incomplete in comparision to the Taoist ones. I personally don't discount Reiki, but find that students are extremely fanatical despite their lack of ability and knowedge. It take years to be able to get any good at Reiki and yet most teachers are very substandard. Frankly, I think that unless you can read Japanese and/or Chinese and are familiar with Buddhist and Taoist terminology in those languages, you're not really qualified to comment on Reiki's origins in an authorative way. 
The fact remains however, that "Reiki" has been influenced by Taoist and Buddhist ideology in so far as it employs symbols and terminology that originate from these religions. This is a fact. 
There is such a scarcity of clear information in general "new-age" type Reiki teaching, that I'm personally becoming very reluctant to invest the time and effort correcting every reiki lunatic and zealot who'd just stepped out of their class last week.
Is there a feasible solution to this dilemma? I'm not sure if it's worth making a decent contribution beyond what we already have in place without a great deal of pain. I can't even manage to keep the translation of the word "Reiki" correct in the article. Someone has translated it to mean "aura" which is wildly incorrect. Is it worth the bother to change it back? I'm begining to think perhaps not. 
--Sean White 05:49, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Sean! Before you give up on this article, can you suggest some good/reliable books about Reiki origins and techniques? I'd like to add some references to the text. FleXable 12:47, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, Sean, what you say sounds reasonable enough to me. If you want to write up a comparison of the different Reiki schools, we have a list of different major schools over at T'ai Chi Ch'uan for instance, and post it here on the talk page first, I'm sure we can get it in the article without too much fuss. We could even have separate articles on the different schools as far as I am concerned. Why not? One example of the neutral tone I'm talking about, in response to: "Most tai chi practitioners for example aren't experts in the hidden meanings, but they nonetheless call what they practice a Taoist art" - is that nowhere in the T'ai Chi articles do we assume that most of the people who say they do T'ai Chi Ch'uan are "practitioners." To be a practitioner of T'ai Chi necessarily means that one is well versed in the hidden meanings. Although a T'ai Chi Ch'uan practitioner is a very rare breed, many, many people around the world do some forms every now and again (even every day); we call them "students." To be well versed in the health, meditation and martial aspects takes years, if not decades of study. I don't know if there is that practitioner/student distinction in some or all of the Reiki schools or not, but if there is it would be worth a mention. Fire Star 15:38, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text:  By the way, how can I find Sean's original version of the article? I'd like to use it for the portuguese version. FleXable 07:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  My ten cents 

message: Hi there! You might have noticed that I copy-pasted the entire controversies section to a new article. I believe the text was too much about opinions instead of facts (which is not the purpose of an encyclopedia). This is just a start, of course. I intend to improve the structure and content of the new article.
Regards, FleXable 12:23, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article about controversies 

message: I placed the following message on the Japanese language talk page:
:Greetings. Would someone who can speak Japanese be kind enough to have a look over at the Reiki article? There seems to be a dispute over the actual meaning or meanings of the usage 霊気  reiki itself in Japanese. Also, there is no clear provenance as to whether the term is a recent coinage or a term from earlier Japanese history. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Fire Star 04:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A request for assistance.