Talk:Dorian mode

message: How can "The End" be in dorian mode??? If you check the harmonic progressions (D-C-D, D-C-G-D and D-G-D) it doesn't fit to what it should be if it was in dorian. D should be minor, not major. 
Probably the confusion is due to the melody. The melody uses F, a minor 3rd relative to D, but it also uses C# and F#,a major 7th and a major 3rd, and you can feel that the minor 3rd is dissonant in the context.
To me it seems like the harmony is based on D mixolidian, but the melody plays jonic while at D and also jonic while at C, what explains the use of F (4th relative to C). And over the G a mixolidian. But this is just my opinion.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.92.168.157 (talk) 02:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The End

message: I just worked this out on my piano and I'm convinced it's in F# major. Whatever the root, it's certainly not in dorian to my ear. Can someone please confirm/dispute this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.247.65 (talk) 17:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scar Tissue

message: I don't want to be an ass but this section doesn't belong on wikipedia as it's original research (and seems to be partly wrong/misleading - see the discussion at the bottom). Someone, please set up a (simple) website and do some research on these songs, as well as the notable songs in other modes, publish them there and then refer to them here.
:[NEW COMMENT: previous one is unsigned, and thus does not terminate clearly:] Perhaps I misunderstand some of the subtler points of what original research is - but it doesn't strike me that listening to a piece or reading its score and determining that it is in this or that mode is original research.  It seems to me that it's just consulting a source and stating facts that can be observed in it.  If a piece is in the Dorian mode, then anyone who listens to the piece or reads its score and says it's in the Dorian mode is just stating something that is obvious to anyone who knows what the Dorian mode is.  In what way is this different from consulting any other reliable source and restating in your own words facts from it? M.J.E. (talk) 17:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't write the original comment, but it is totally correct.  Listening to a piece and determining what mode it's in is exactly what original research is.  The difference between "just listening" and consulting a reliable source is verifiability; a reliable source is held to a higher standard of quality control than some guy listening to a song on CD and trying to play along. Torc2 (talk) 08:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

text: …and for those of you that think sources for each and every item in the list aren't necessary, read Wikipedia:No original research before you add any more thoughts on the matter.   — Chris Capoccia  T⁄C 10:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Well-spotted, 64.105.11.82! I notice that the source cited on the mixolydian page has been queried for reliability. That doesn't mean that it is wrong and the other one is right, but it does indicate doubt. A "conflict" tag is in order on both pages, I think.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable songs in Dorian mode is original research

message: In the medival definition of this mode, the natural minor scale, is scale used more often in gregorian chant then others?
:I'm afraid that I don't fully understand the question. The ancient Greek Dorian mode was the natural diatonic mode in E. The mediaeval and modern Dorian mode is the natural Diatonic mode in D. The natural minor scale is the natural diatonic mode in A. In Gregorian chant, the mode in A was very rarely used. Technically, Dorian is the fancy name for the first of the eight standard Gregorian modes. This mode feels minor to most people who are used to the major/minor duality in modern Western music: it can be thought of as a minor mode with a recurring raised sixth. I wouldn't say that this mode is used more often than others. One of the traditions of plainchant is to cycle through the modes. Have a look at the article on musical modes for more information. --Gareth Hughes 12:10, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This mode and gregorian chant

message: I can get how a scale can be in Dorian mode (or Phrygian etc.), but I can't get how a piece of music can be in a particular mode. A piece uses notes from all over the scale to produce a tune, and these notes do not seem to conform to a strict pattern. So I would have thought the concept of a mode would be irrelevant in this case. I hope I've made the question clear. I think this page should resolve this issue, since it seems a reasonable misunderstanding, and it is in fact what I read the page for. It is a longstanding item of confusion with me, even having once studied classical guitar.203.129.128.94 00:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A piece of music can utilise any musical note, including chromatic and enharmonic intervals. However, most music restricts itself to a selection of possible notes. The most common selection is a diatonic scale. However, there are many cultures that use a different standard. In diatonic music, the fourth and fifth intervals are almost always fixed in relation to the tonic, but the other intervals may have different values. In fixing these 'floating intervals' for a particular scale, one creates a mode. --Gareth Hughes 12:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the question was asking, how can you tell the difference between a piece of music in a (say) D dorian mode and a piece that's just in ordinary C major, given that both scales contain the exact same notes.  I too came here looking for an answer to this question.  203.171.85.67 (talk) 07:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure you can hear the difference between the major and natural minor scales, correct? The natural minor scale is the Aeolian mode of a major scale, using the sixth scale degree as a tonal center. The dorian mode has a similar minor quality to it. When it comes down to deciding whether a peice relies on one mode or another, you judge it by its sound. If someone tries to write something in Dorian, but it sounds Ionian, well... it's Ionian. That's just from my POV however. I compose, but I'm certainly not the pinnacle of music theory knowledge. On paper they have the same notes, but in practice they use them to different effect. That's the best I can think of, hope it helps.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.184.49 (talk) 05:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I agree with "72.73.184.49", the diference  between D-dorian and C-Ionian is the tonal center. And what's the diference?? C-Ionian C would be tonic and D would be supertonic and G the dominant, while at D-dorian D is the tonic and A the dominant (i'm not realy sure what function C would have in this case, but i think it would be subtonic)201.92.168.157 (talk) 06:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basic question 

message: I don't quite get this. It says there are 2 different ways the term can be used but then it only goes on to describe 1. Is it just that I'm confused or is there a bit missing? Munci 17:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone had removed the second version, mediaeval and modern, of the Dorian mode. If you play all the white notes of a piano from E to E, you are playing the original Greek Dorian. If you play all the white notes of a piano from D to D, you are playing the mediaeval and modern Dorian. Of course, you don't have to keep to these keys: if the same intervals are kept, you can play Dorian mode, of either kind, in any key. — Gareth Hughes 18:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two definitions 

message: I plan on deleting any unsourced entries from this in a few weeks. (Listening to a piece and trying to figure out the key is not a source, and is also WP:OR.) Torc2 (talk) 08:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing them all wholesale seems unreasonable. Adding a "citations needed" tag seems much more appropriate. Kwertii (talk) 04:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They were tagged for a month and the message here was left.  There was no action on any entry in any list on any key.  Removal was the correct course of action.  These may be readded if they are sourced and are provide unique insight to Dorian mode. —Torc. (Talk.) 09:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Well-known music in this key

message: How Dorian does an example have to be? I'd call Eleanor Rigby Dorian-ish, but it deviates. Drunken Sailor and Scarborough Fair are pure Dorian. Should Eleanor Rigby be among the examples? Rigaudon (talk) 19:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a reliable source, go for it. Zeldafanjtl (talk) 02:45, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eleanor Rigby 

message: isn't this phyrgian, not dorian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.75.253.188 (talk) 16:53, 6 April 2010
:See Phrygian. Hyacinth (talk) 16:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: In modern music, the dorian mode is widely used in jazz improvisation.  It would be impossible to catalog an exhaustive list of solos in which this mode is used at some point during a line since it is virtually ubiquitous; it just sounds to the contemporary ear to be very jazz-like, which is to say it has BECOME jazz in a sense (at least for the moment).  Nearly always, in this jazz context, it is best understood as a rotation of a major (or even natural minor) mode rather than as an absolute modification of the major tonic specific to that particular key--although were the tune in a minor mode, it might very well be modified to contain a major rather than a minor sixth melodically speaking but that is certainly not the primary place you hear the dorian being used in jazz.  In other words, in jazz harmonic progressions, it is the ii-7 chord (of a major mode) that brings out the dorian (trust me, it brings out the dorian in the best of us) and not a dorian tonic per se around which the entire harmonic (and melodic) structure of the tune revolves.  It's not an understatement to say that the ii-7 chord is a big f#$king deal in jazz harmony in its own right, and not just as part of the ii-7 to V7 cadence.  Many tunes begin on this chord.  Many more tunes tend to "sit" with it for a while.  The ii-7 chord often has its own "tonic gravity" in jazz since it is very often tonicized by a VI7 chord preceding it.  Finally, I'd point out that on a melodic note (so to speak), a lot of lines in jazz resolve on the minor seventh scale degree from the major 6th scale degree.  Diatonically, this only works in either a dorian or a mixolydian mode.  And anyway the juxtaposition of a major 6th and a minor 7th in a melodic line (at least to my ear) has a very natural, almost folky (American?) feel to it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.7.151 (talk) 19:24, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you trying to say this article ought to include discussion of the use of the Dorian scale in jazz?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:23, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Dorian in jazz

message: Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification and how may and where then does it contain original research? Hyacinth (talk) 17:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: For the "where", check the last two paragraphs in the Modern Dorian mode section, all to do with jazz. There are four "citation needed" tags there. The "Why", "what", and "how" are fairly obvious, I think.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Further thought: It looks to me as if the statement "It may contain improper references to self-published sources" must have been long since addressed. I don't see any obviously self-published sources.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:28, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work on this, Hyacinth. Is there any possibility that you could add examples of the chromatic and enharmonic genera of the Ancient Greek Dorian, to accompany the one in the diatonic genus? It would be a very useful step toward making clear why the Greek harmoniai are very distant from the medieval modal concept.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:17, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional citations and original research

message: A tag: "This article's tone or style may not reflect the formal tone used on Wikipedia. Specific concerns may be found on the talk page" has been placed on this article. In what way does the tone or style not reflect the formal tone used on Wikipedia, and what are the specific concerns?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:00, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Mode of discourse

message: *"Greensleeves" (one of several variant forms)Anton East, "Modes", in his A-Level Music.  Accessed on 2012-02-07. Though likely a Dorian melody in its (unrecorded) folk origin, the first section of the tune has Aeolian elements (also found in its passamezzo antico chordal accompaniment), and most versions published since 1600 are minor-key tonal versions.Luca Cerchiari, "Greensleeves and the Challenge of Transatlantic Music(ology)", Jazzforschung/Jazz Research 39 (2007): 111–18. Citation on 116.
The above was removed because the citations supposedly don't support the claims. Hyacinth (talk) 01:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Correction: it was removed because the second citation directly contradicts the first, and the credibility of that first claim has been challenged.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed: Unsupported by citations

message: *"Telephone" by Lady Gaga and Beyoncé
The above was removed without comment. Hyacinth (talk) 07:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: A quick check reveals that the cited source is now a dead link for which the Internet Wayback Machine has no archive. Presumably the redlinked editor who did this is a newbie, and does not understand the importance of providing an edit summary, nor that the usual procedure is to mark such a source with the  template, in order to give other editors a reasonable amount of time in which to find another source.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:36, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed

message: I added Sibelius's 6th symphony to the list, but I've got someone arguing that it does not belong here. The page for the symphony seems to clearly explain how it is in Dorian mode. Does anybody else believe it should be included? 75.72.241.51 (talk) 06:28, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do me the courtesy of addressing me by my Username. I am not "just someone", I do sign my edits. This is a classic example of Wikipedia not standing as a reliable source. Had you checked the article on Sibelius's Sixth Symphony, you would have discovered that there was absolutely no support at all for the claim that it had anything to do with the Dorian mode. That claim could have been made by anyone, even a malicious vandal. As it happens, that problem has now been fixed (by me), and it may be seen that the symphony in question is predominantly (but not exclusively) verified as being in Dorian. Furthermore, you may use the reliable source that I found (two sources, actually, but both by the same author, Lionel Pike) to support the re-addition of the symphony to this list. Please do be careful, however, not to claim that any work as lengthy and complex as a Sibelius symphony can remain exclusively in a single mode. Pike's articles make it very plain that this is not the case.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:14, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sibelius's 6th symphony 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dorian mode. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140202102023/http://www.billtroxler.com/f/21.4_Thoughts_on_Eleanor_Rigby.pdf to http://www.billtroxler.com/f/21.4_Thoughts_on_Eleanor_Rigby.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:13, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: What is the abbreviation? JaydenPlayz2011 (talk) 20:29, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The abbreviation