Talk:GCHQ

message: Either the senior staff at Bletchley is not identical with the senior staff at GC&CS, in which case Alan Turing does not belong onto that list, or it is, in which case at least Gordon Welchman is missing from the list. And maybe Hugh Alexander and Stuart Milner-Barry as well.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.143.60.50 (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Senior Staff, Bletchley vs. GC&CS

message: Removed: "It is the most successful and advanced listening station in the Western World."  I don't see how this could ever be verified given that governments are generally less that enthusiastic in publicizing their intelligence capabilities. -- anon
: Quite, and the NSA are almost certainly more successful and advanced. — Matt Crypto 16:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt it. I expect they are both as successful and advanced as they are required to be. As we are never allowed to see the output of GCHQ, despite been forced to fund it via taxes, we can never know whether it is successful or not.Markb 09:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Most successful etc

message: When did GC&CS change its name to GCHQ? I've come across different versions: some pinpoint it at around 1942, others say 1946. (I'll try and dig them up). — Matt Crypto 23:03, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a document in the PRO from 1942 which suggests using the "GCHQ" as a cover name for Bletchley Park, but it could well be that this was a covername for the BP site, while the entire organisation was still offically known as GC&CS (work was done elsewhere apart from BP) until 1946. — Matt Crypto 15:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just found this reference, too in Michael Smith, Station X, Channel 4 Books, 1998, : "In June 1946, GC&CS adopted its wartime covername Government Communications Headquarters" as its new title" (p. 176). — Matt Crypto 15:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change: GC&CS -> GCHQ

message: Why on earth is 'fired' more npov than 'sacked'? As far as I know, 'fired' is the American word for 'sacked': both mean 'summarily dismissed'. Since this is a UK article, it ought to be 'sacked'. Myopic Bookworm 15:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I thought, too. I agree that "sacked" is fine in a UK topic article. — Matt Crypto 17:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ?npov 

message: * Richard J. Aldrich, GCHQ and Siginit in the Early Cold War 1945-70, Intelligence & National Security, Volume 16, Number 1 / Spring 2001, 67 - 96
* Nigel West, GCHQ: the Secret Wireless War, 1900-86, London : Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1986.
— Matt Crypto 11:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Potential sources to use

message: The article says that the ECHELON section needs references.  Would any of these be suitable for use as references?
The European Parliament had a sub-committee that reported on Echelon.  I don't know if that counts as 'authoritative' or whatever.
Here's a link to the European Parliament PDF report:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN
The cryptome website has some useful information.
http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep.htm
And this page has some links to US news papers.
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm
DanBeale 20:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ECHELON 

message: The organisation section references Bamford and an organisation as of 1983.  Is this really all that meaningful, since Cheltenham has undergone several rounds of business change, including a significant downsizing to move into the new build and then an unplift requiring the retention of the Oakley site as well as a significant change of focus from the USSR to CT andassymetric threats?  I'd suggest that it's more meaningful to just talk in general terms; management, technology, collection planning, collection, analysis and dissemination.  those are likely to survive any business change as these are the SIGINT activities.
I'd just go ahead and do it, but since it excises quite a chunk of the article I thought it would be better to discuss it first, in case anyone gets worked up about the fact that it's sourced.
Any thoughts? ALR (talk) 13:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it looked very dated: I have updated it Dormskirk (talk) 14:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organisation section 

message: I have created a United Kingdom intelligence community page where we can address the broad issues, such as the relative scope of MI5 and MI6 (as mentioned here).  Starting with the list of key agencies shown at the global List of intelligence agencies.  It should provide an appropriate place to deal with some of the ambiguities that the present atomised articles fail to cover well. 
To discuss, please use this Talk page. 
Earthlyreason (talk) 07:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Overview of British intelligence - new article

message: 1) The title of this section is overblown: the paragraph only relates a minor legal decision, not any constitutional position of GCHQ.The history of the sacking and reemployment of GCHQ staff for union activities is much more relevant to the article, under a different heading.
2)  The rationale of the judgement seems at best of marginal relevance. Council of Civil Service Unions v Minister for the Civil Service reconfirmed the scope of judicial review of the exercise of prerogative powers (the Crown's residual powers under common law). It happened to concern GCHQ, but that seems no more relevant than the location of a road accident or any other litigated event. Would it be better omitted, or linked to an article on judicial review?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jezzabr (talk • contribs) 23:57, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  GCHQ and the constitution 

message: Richard Aldrich's book "GCHQ: The Uncensored Story of Britain's Most Secret Intelligence Agency" is surely the definitive authority on the subject and uses GC&CS rather than GCCS throughout. I therefore suggest that it is appropriate to use the ampersand version of the abbreviation in this article.--TedColes (talk) 17:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  GCCS or GC&CS 

message: A few of the references points to what seems like a surname, year and a page without any ISDN or further documentation where you can actually find these. For example, look at reference 1, 4, 5 and 6. Are they replaceable or traceable? I've been searching with no success. Steamruler (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I just realized that these are infact references to books but is done incorrectly so they are unclickable. I have no idea how to fix it so can someone else do it? Steamruler (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  References to books are incorrect 

message: Here are some articles from The Guardian about GCHQ spying, referring to documents leaked by Edward Snowden
*Naughton, John. "If you think GCHQ spying revelations don't matter, it's time to think again." The Observer at The Guardian. Saturday 22 June 2013.
*MacAskill, Ewen, Julian Borger, Nick Hopkins, Nick Davies and James Ball. "GCHQ taps fibre-optic cables for secret access to world's communications." The Guardian. Friday 21 June 2013. - In this article Snowden said "It's not just a US problem. The UK has a huge dog in this fight. They [GCHQ] are worse than the US."
*MacAskill, Ewen, Julian Borger, Nick Hopkins, Nick Davies and James Ball. "How does GCHQ's internet surveillance work?." The Guardian. Friday 21 June 2013.
*MacAskill, Ewen, Julian Borger, Nick Hopkins, Nick Davies and James Ball. "The legal loopholes that allow GCHQ to spy on the world."  The Guardian. Friday 21 June 2013.
*MacAskill, Ewen, Julian Borger, Nick Hopkins, Nick Davies and James Ball. "Mastering the internet: how GCHQ set out to spy on the world wide web." The Guardian. Friday 21 June 2013.
*Davies, Nick. "MI5 feared GCHQ went 'too far' over phone and internet monitoring." The Observer at The Guardian. Saturday 22 June 2013.
CNN also posted this:
*CNN Staff (Bharati Naik contributed to this article). "Guardian newspaper: UK security agency has spy program; shares data with NSA." CNN. June 21, 2013.
WhisperToMe (talk) 18:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Guardian articles about GCHQ spying, referring to documents leaked by Edward Snowden 

message: *"UK spy agency played catch-up to 'master the internet'." (print title: "GCHQ forced to play catch-up - and it won") The Guardian at the South China Morning Post. Sunday 23 June 2013.
*"Snowden says Britain’s spy agency secretly tapping fibre-optic cables." Agence France-Presse at the South China Morning Post. Saturday, 22 June, 2013.
WhisperToMe (talk) 17:09, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  SCMP articles on GCHQ spying 

message: I've just started a new GCHQ surveillance template which is based on the NSAs equivalent surveillance template. It could do with some more info and eyes on it before possible inclusion in this article near the history section. To discuss the template, not it's inclusion here, please use the Talk page for it. Aluxosm (talk) 20:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  GCHQ surveillance template 

message: Surveillance awareness day is a proposal for the English Wikipedia to take special steps to promote awareness of global surveillance on  February 11, 2014.  That date is chosen to coincide with similar actions being taken by organizations such as Mozilla, Reddit, and the Electronic Frontier Foundation. 
Feedback from editors of this article would be greatly appreciated.   Please come join us as we brainstorm, polish, and present this proposal to the Wikipedia Community.  --HectorMoffet (talk) 12:30, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Invitation to help craft a proposal

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replies: text: I fixed the link in early April. It had 404'd. . Contact User:Cyberpower678, I presume he has a vellum bound copy of the black list. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 22:16, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see the blacklisted links template Gareth E Kegg (talk) 22:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: This article is about the Government Communications Headquarters. The Global surveillance template (on the right) was added, which I replaced with a See also template (above) in the most relevant section.Whizz40 (talk) 13:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Global surveillance 

message: user:Gareth_E_Kegg  Can you elaborate what section of Undue weight you specifically refer to?  ChristopheT (talk) 16:52, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Why have you decided to present it in its own section? Not a single other alleged GCHQ operation has its own subsection, so the relatively minor Operation Socialist has undue prominence on the page. Even the vastly more significant Mastering the Internet and JTRIG are merely mentioned within the relevant history sections. Operation Socialist should be spun off to a new article and mentioned within the context of Snowden's revelations within the recent history section. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:29, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not necessarily against moving the section - so you suggest to add a bullet point to the list for *MIT *GTE and link it to an standalone article ?--ChristopheT (talk) 20:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

text: This topic has has already been started and spun out from Global surveillance#By category, see Global surveillance by category#GCHQ operations. I would favour expanding the existing coverage or spinning out into a seaparte article. Whizz40 (talk) 20:21, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

text: I had a quick look only, looks fine in principle, I did not check the sources. One thing worth considering is has the topic received significant coverage in reliable sources. If it hasn't then making it a section of an existing article, eg a sub-section under Global surveillance by category#GCHQ operations might be the right approach; if it has then a new article might be the right way to go. The usual policies are good for guidance, for example neutral point of view (and sometimes useful to check WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:EXCEPTIONAL). Hope this is helpful. Whizz40 (talk) 05:31, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:   thank you for taking the time to have a look - as far as sources go they are as good as it gets for European sources:   De Standaard (since 1911) Der Spiegel (since 1947) are both classical top tier newspapers with national coverage. The advantage I see in having a short independent article is that it can be linked to different topics (Belgacom, GCHQ, Mass Surveillance, Snowden revelation ect.)easily and it does increase visibility when searching  ChristopheT (talk) 10:53, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

text:   I would simply add a link the topic the same way as for "Mastering the Internet" & "Global Telecoms Exploitation" (GTE) in the history section if that is ok with you ChristopheT (talk) 10:58, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operation Socialist 

message: Some things I think are missing and need adding
* criticisms of ISC’s lack of independence
* EU judgments saying the IPT offers no human rights remedy
* Lack of appeals at IPT
* The ISC’s admissions in their recent report of various missed oversight questions
* The patchwork of codes emerging to cover gaps in the law (and therefore HR abuses)
* The cases from Liberty, PI and others that are prompting these changes
* And the assertion that there is no mass surveillance is reported without any counter view being mentioned in several places Jim Killock (talk) 14:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Much of the above belongs in or is already covered in the articles Mass surveillance in the United Kingdom, Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament and Investigatory Powers Tribunal. In addition, there has been mainstream criticism of aspects of the above viewpoints which also needs to be noted. As an aside, following this week's report from the ISC, the Guardian came out strongly critical of the status quo and in favour of privacy and civil liberties as it always does, the Times carried some articles on the other side, the BBC has to be balanced and the Telegraph didn't even seem to cover it as far as I saw. While Liberty etc play an important role for rights, they are not democratically elected representatives, and the aforementioned articles seem to slip off the website front pages more quickly than I expected. The papers also seemed to be expressing editorial viewpoints, there doesn't seem to be a strong voice from the public at large being reported. Whizz40 (talk) 21:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that some of these points could go into the ISC and IPT articles for instance but many seem to be absent there too. I see no mention of Burden v United Kingdom (2008) 47 EHRR 38. and  Malik v United Kingdom (Application no.32968/11) [2013] ECHR 794 (28 May 2013) for instance, which say that the IPT does not offer any human rights remedy on surveillance questions. I see no mention of the lack of appeals at the IPT in that article. The ISC oversight omissions (unregulated databases for instance) are new information that I think needs adding here. Jim Killock (talk) 14:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Also this is factually misleading: "The Parliament of the United Kingdom appoints an Intelligence and Security Committee"–the committee has been appointed by the Prime Minister up to now, and the legislation says that members are appointed by the HoC from persons that are "nominated for membership by the Prime Minister". That of course makes it questionable whether it is truly independent, as the members are Prime Ministerial nominees.Jim Killock (talk) 14:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: On your first points, agree, I would say go ahead and add to those articles while this discussion is fresh, with cites ideally. On your second point, after the Justice and Security Act 2013 I recall MPs have the power to review and veto the prime minister's nominations which I think needs to be reflected as well. And the committee members themselves are elected by their constituents as MPs so accountable to their electorate; any slip up in their role or otherwise could see them lose their seat, as we have seen recently. But I think this debate belongs on the ISC article. This article should just correctly state who has the power to nominate, appoint and veto. Separately, there has also been mention of establishing a Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (United Kingdom), which the US already has: Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board. Whizz40 (talk) 15:06, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I don't wish to make these edits however. I'm happy to supply the information (including publicly) but I think it would be a step too far for me to write parts of the articles. See my user page, I think it would pose too many questions in some people's minds about NPOV Jim Killock (talk) 15:22, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

text: I thought I'd help on the role of Liberty, Privacy international and so on. The validation of their views is not in their pronouncements per se, which as ou say are of a self appointed group, albeit ones that can claim some expertise and experience. The validation or not is ultimately in what the courts say as a result. So for instance Liberty and PI's case in the IPT showed that bulk collection was effectively unlawful prior to publication of codes of practice; similar questions are emerging about equipment interference (hacking). At the point that all these groups reach the ECHR. their viewpoints on mass surveillance and bulk collection will be validated or rejected. But the ECHR process is ultimately far more important than IPT rulings, which as I mentioned have been found to lack the ability to make proper human rights remedies by the ECHR. Similarly, the ISC claims that bulk collection is not mass surveillance needs caveating by the fact that it will be appointed by nominees selected by the Prime Minister, and the current nominees are IIRC prime ministerial appointees.Jim Killock (talk) 15:18, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I made edits to this article, Mass surveillance in the United Kingdom, Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament and Investigatory Powers Tribunal to address these points. Whizz40 (talk) 06:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions for new content 

message: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/02/gchq-argentina-falklands/
Hi, 
I think GCHQ's operation to manipulate Latin American opinion on the Falklands deserves a mention in the article, but not sure if there's an appropriate section. Maybe a new section in history on Snowden's leaks should be added? Currently history only deals with their reaction to the internet (and surveillance of it). Magedq (talk) 06:56, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Intercept story refers to JTRIG as the arbiters of Operation Quito, and so it should be included in their article. Snowden's leaks are well linked from this article. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 15:39, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spreading Falkland propaganda 

message: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/25/leaked-memos-gchq-mass-surveillance-secret-snowden
This should be included. Ich901 (talk) 20:24, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leaked memos reveal GCHQ efforts to keep mass surveillance secret 

message: and another one
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/01/gchq-spied-amnesty-international-tribunal-email Ich901 (talk) 21:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/01/gchq-spied-amnesty-international-tribunal-email 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have tagged for improvements, i am not going to improve this article myself, but could somebody look into making some edits re the new laws and re popular culture references. A Guy into Books (talk) 07:12, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Please go ahead and make the improvements, if you have the sources yourself, rather than just tagging the article. Thanks.Dormskirk (talk) 09:07, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvements 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/top-secret-spy-agency-gchq-14516029
In Manchester but only in 2019.
Sammartinlai (talk) 08:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible new GCHQ site  

message: On 30th April 2018, GCHQ changed their logo, as seen here https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/new-gchq-logo
Sheikhalali (talk) 12:21, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: changed. Dormskirk (talk) 16:02, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  New GCHQ Loco 

message: Not sure where/how this will be useful, but from http://web.archive.org/web/20000301124949/http://www.gchq.gov.uk:80/careers/current.html I found the old pre-Doughnut address: "GCHQ, Priors Road, Cheltenham, Glos., GL52 5AJ"
WhisperToMe (talk) 16:50, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old GCHQ head office address 

message: John Solomon and Sara Carter, have reported that Crown Prosecutor Alison Saunders had dinner with Bruce and Nellie Ohr, xi bearin their private home, four days before GCHQ Richard Hannigan came over.... https://www.sebgorka.com/video/the-truth-about-british-intelligences-role-in-obamagate-john-solomon-and-sara-carter-with-sebastian-gorka-on-america-first/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbsgIu6A-_o Also there was operation FULSOME to wiretap Trump and his tower (?). Source https://cdn.website-editor.net/07abdd0b496f4ee7a8b38c87f89a04ec/files/uploaded/UK%252520-%252520FISA.pdf 2A00:1370:812C:9562:44EC:F59C:B1B6:5EFD (talk) 12:38, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Participation in Steele dossier about Donald J Trump and operation FULSOME 

message: There should be a link to the list of directors. I don't know how to do it. Snugglepuss (talk) 19:32, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There is already at hatnote that links to the article that has the list, at the top of the "Leadership" section. - wolf 05:54, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Directors of GCHQ 

message: Added some clarity to the PKI innovation section - it was broadly accurate, though by 1997 when the work was declassified the PKI world had marched on and the 1969 work became another footnote in cryptography history. 
Rather a sad story actually...
Dr.BeingObjective (talk) 03:18, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  PKI Clarity 

message: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/12/27/how-will-history-books-remember-the-2010s-089796 BeingObjective (talk) 03:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Does that article mention this subject? What is its relevance here? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup oddly it really does old chap - the article is formatted as GCHQ through the decades and each decade has been tagged with the year and a little statement encapsulating the challenges to GCHQ - I thought that was fine - 2010 is not formatted the same way - the link talks to the perception of each decade through the eyes of Politico anyhow - so adding the tone of 2010 to an Intelligence Service - kinda makes sense - is this clear? It is really not super complicated - should have not bothered to explain if this is confusing matters - cheers Dr. BeingObjective (talk) 21:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

text: I only added this - as another editor gave me an outrageous and   ridiculously hard time for the PKI contribution - have a great day Dr. BeingObjective (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  2010s thematic decade heading - consistency