Talk:The Smashing Pumpkins/Archive 3

message: Okay, Iha told Rolling Stone  here that he will NOT be in the reunion. I added it hastily into the article, and for some reason i might have saved it like 3 times, cause something was SNAFU'ing. I did no use the proper cite format either, so if someone could do that? Cheers. -- Reaper  X 18:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, RX. On it.—DCGeist 19:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i've added the info about Iha to the beginning of the article once or twice only to have it edited out, i went and checked and the last time it was edited out, the note left stated that the information was not "necessary for the lead", however my statement came immediately after "So far Corgan and Chamberlain are the only confirmed memebers". Now IMHO that reads like theres a chance that the other members may return so (again IMHO) the info that Iha won't be returning is necessary as long as said statement is present. 68.255.249.56 20:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I may have written that line actually... I don't remember. But anyway, I read it as "Corgan and Chamberlin are the only confirmed members and other members (returning or new) are yet to be announced/confirmed." - Phorque 18:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Iha not in

message: According to musician Ben Lee (in the March 31 entry of his blog) the new SP album is complete, and a wrap party has been held. He also goes on to briefly relate his impressions of the new music. Not quite sure if this info is relevant enough to warrant inclusion in the article or not, and if it is, how to cite it. pmppk 20:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Zeitgeist' complete

message: You can now pre-order Zeitgeist off Amazon but thats not the point of this. I thought that it was meant to be released July 7th but according to amazon:
" Availability: This title will be released on July 10, 2007."
So whats up with this then? Debaser23 13:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: July 7th is a weekend apparently. Either the record company wants it out on a Tuesday (the nearest being the 10th), or Amazon just won't get their shipments until that day. WesleyDodds 23:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah most likely but Amazon usually get their shipments the day albums are released so I'm guessing that its not being released 7th July 07 but 10th July 07. Debaser23 08:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the "official release date" and the date when a website or store will receive a shipment and have it available differ right? -- Reaper  X 14:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn't think they did. I thought big companies like Amazon would get a shipment just before the release date? Oh well I maybe wrong but still it seems stupid to release it the 7th cause it wouldn't get a very high chart position within a day because here in the UK the chart is on a sunday. Debaser23 12:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonetheless, I think we should stick with 7 July 07 as the release date, as the offical Pumpkins website should be a better source than Amazon.com. -- Reaper  X 16:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah I didn't think we should change it I just got kinda confused but time will tell. Debaser23 12:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Zeitgeist Pre-order

message: Hey, I think it would be cool to mention that the lead singer of Smashing pumpkins was running people over with a golf cart at Lollapalooza and was tackled by a security guard(my father). I don't have any proof except my dad's word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.132.67 (talk • contribs) 
:No offence, but I believe it's unverifyable, and too trivial. I'd say no. -- Reaper  X 15:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds totally rad, but no. - Phorque 16:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: At least they added that tidbit to the talk page instead of the article... pmppk 20:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Certainly raises the question as to why Corgan was running people over with a golf cart in the first place eh? -- Reaper  X 21:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Security guard

message: Smashing Pumpkins will appear in Heineken Jammin festival on June 16, in Venice, Italy.
I think thi information should be mentioned somewhere.
151.96.0.8 07:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Somewhere? Google it--it's mentioned 'most everywhere. Of course, you don't think it needs to be mentioned in this here encyclopedia, do you? You do!?! Then, by all means, start a new article titled List of Smashing Pumpkins 2007 concerts.—DCGeist 07:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: And that is what I was trying to get at. Phabulous.—DCGeist 16:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To make it simple: Wikipedia is NOT a directory. "For example, an article...should not list upcoming events...although mention of major events or promotions may be acceptable". -- Reaper  X 17:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And what Reaper X mentioned earlier is also something I wholeheartedly agree with: The world will not end tomorrow! I was actually thinking that we could remove the statement about "the official tracklisting was announced..." because it's already mentioned in the Zeitgeist article, and just isn't that relevant in the context of this article. I'll go do that now, actually.- Phorque 21:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smashing Pumpkins Concert 

message: why is the collaborative not mentioned in the external link section? it contains much information anyone interested in the pumpkins could find useful --ThrowingStick/Talk 19:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, I don't know. Most other band articles I can think of don't really list fan sites... you could fill a page with fan sites for any given topic I think. Does anyone know of guidelines for this kind of thing? But the external links section does seem kind of thin... surely there's some more usual stuff to put in there? A link to the Machina II download, for example, would probably be something worth including. - Phorque 20:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No individual fansites should be linked to. Link to a directory of fansites if there is one. WesleyDodds 21:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added starla.org to satisfy the above discussion: it's a portal site that includes spfc.org.  It's a good site. JesseStu 04:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  spfc.org 

message: The recent theft of materials from the Smashing Pumpkins by two fans has been a huge story in the press, but no mention of it here.  Will it be eventually added to the article, or is it too minor of an incident?Joe 19:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds minor, but link us to the article anyways. - Phorque 20:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  he's talking about the stolen Zeitgeist photos, which are already discussed on the album's page.65.43.211.192 15:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Zeitgeist (The Smashing Pumpkins album)#Possible leak of album artwork and subsequent discussion. I think it's notable enough to have it on the album page, but not notable enough to have on this page.  -- Reaper  X 21:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robbery 

message: Is this worth mentioning anywhere? A few well known bands such as Panic!, The Academy Is, 30 Seconds to Mars are working with Myspace to release a tribute album. Source:  Vality 07:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if it's worth mentioning here, that's up for debate.  I do bet it'll suck, though. JuJube 08:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: There are two other tributes I know of that might be worth mentioning. I think they're called "The Killer in You: A Tribute to The Smashing Pumpkins" and "A Gothic-Industrial Tribute to The Smashing Pumpkins". - Phorque 20:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but the artists on them aren't too notable, and neither are the releases. This one's pretty notable because there's a lot of recognizable artists and it's being promoted by Spin and MySpace. I was thinking of throwing it in at the end of the paragraph about bands they've influenced since that's the idea behind the comp. WesleyDodds 20:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we should be the ones to judge what artists qualify as 'notable'. All tribute albums should have at least a note about them in my opinion. Also 'The Killer in You' isn't all that bad, there are some OK covers. --86.137.21.20 08:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Smashing Pumpkins Tribute LP

message: Just a reminder to everyone: with the upcoming tour dates there will be opportunities to obtain non-fair use pictures of the band. If you're going to a show let us know if you think you'll be able to get any. I'm attending the residency date at the Fillmore in July, but my picture-taking abilities have always been lacking. WesleyDodds 19:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: not that anyone's relying on me for anything, but just a heads up, i will not be able to take any pics cause i'm not attending anything. sorry to disappoint, ladies. ;) --ThrowingStick/Talk 21:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will see them here in Barcelona on May 31st, don't know if I be able to take pictures, but will give it a try of course.. --Johnnyw talk 22:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It just occured to me that we'll know for sure who's in the band by tomorrow (their first date, in France). WesleyDodds 22:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will probably be seeing them at the Virgin Festival in Toronto September 9. Thanks for reminding me, I will be sure to try to get as close as I can and get some pics. No promises though, I'm not sure my girlfriend is the type to sleep at the gate hours before the show, but I'll ask her! -- Reaper  X 16:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Well it looks like a commons user by the name of Schnékert has uploaded this excellent picture of the bands performance at Luxembourg, and it fits pretty nicely with the infobox. So kudos out to him, makes a nice substitute for the copyrighted picture we had before. -- Reaper  X 22:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: I got the page semi-protected so we can add reliable info about the new line-up at our leisure without getting caught up reverting well-intentioned edits that jump the gun. Make sure to look at reliable music sites (rollingstone.com, billboard.com, nme.com, mtv.com, etc.) and the band's MySpace and official website for definitive information and announcements about the lineup in the new few hours. WesleyDodds 22:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "SP" equals semi-protection 

message: As of right now www.smashingpumpkins.com can not be accessed due to being password protected.  Anyone know what is going on? Smashing Pumpkins.com --buzlink 01:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smashing Pumpkins.com Password Protected 

message: The Billboard.com article we're now citing for the band's new members--"Smashing Pumpkins Return To The Stage In Paris"--makes absolutely no distinction between Schroeder and Reyes on the one hand and Harriton on the other: all three were "introduced...into the Pumpkins' lineup." Maybe the Pumpkins never had a keyboardist in their main lineup before, but our source indicates that they do now. Is their any rationale at present for excluding her from the article and the list of band members?—DCGeist 07:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The MySpace post made after the show today makes a distinction. Yes, it's pretty much the equivalent of a shoddy press release, but there's a distinction between the new members and the touring keyboardist that Billboard.com didn't pick up (they also just cut and pasted the setlist verbatim without noticing some of the song titles were abbreviated). I'll have to read the post again in the morning, though. WesleyDodds 07:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oy. Not only did not I read the thread above (and thus the MySpace post), not only did I write "Is their any rationale," but I inspired no more than provisional semi-witiness. I blame it on the Black Sabbath greatest hits CD I took out from the library today (I must say, I do like that "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath " ditty).—DCGeist 07:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Oh yeah!" WesleyDodds 16:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm quite fond of "Electric Funeral" myself. - Phorque 12:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harriton's status 

message: Is that Jonathan Melvoin playing keyboards in the "Zero" video?  02:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. WesleyDodds 08:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melvoin in "Zero" 

message: I've always thought Corgan is a huge fan of the band Cheap Trick but they're not being mentioned in the Musical style and influences part. I'm sure there are enough sources, I'll look some up later.
sources:
*"...he began playing guitar himself (citing such hard rock bands as Cheap Trick and Van Halen as important early influences). In 1985, Corgan formed his first real band..." 
*"The band also covered "Rock On," originally by the Chicago based band Cheap Trick." 
*Corgan wiki 
etc.
And maybe the band Between the Buried and Me could be mentioned as an heavy metal/metalcore band that was influenced by tSP. I read in interviews some band members stated Siamese Dream was one of their favourite albums. I'll be able to find some sources to underline this.
sources:
*"in a flash as lead singer Tommy Rogers fleshes out his vocals and utilizes the keyboards to create something that sounds more like it should be on a Smashing Pumpkins album"
*"With a myriad of influences ranging from their hardcore and metal roots to artists like the Smashing Pumpkins and Dream Theater, Between The Buried And Me creates sincere, artistic songs" 
*Track 7 of their cover album "The Anatomy Of" contains the song Geek U.S.A - The Smashing Pumpkins
*"One of my favorite all time records is Smashing Pumpkins “Siamese Dream”. Not only is it a great record but it made me want to play guitar in general." - Paul Waggoner 
Emmaneul (Talk) 21:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Between the Buried and me is ntoable enough, we can add it. However, I excluded Cheap Trick when writing the section because they seemed more an influence on Corgan alone rather than the band as a whole. WesleyDodds 21:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Influences

message: Could someone add some free-use logos of the old SP Heart and the Machina-era SP Cross ? Other bands (e.g. NIN) have their band's logo image at the top of their infobox. StevePrutz 19:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you could get them free-use, It'd be alright to add them to the article right? Not sure how to make it free-use, but we can't add it as per your example because a) :Image:Nine Inch Nails Logo.png is non-free, and b) IMO, it would be inappropriate to use a band's abbreviated logo in the title field, ie. SP, NIN. -- Reaper  X 19:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Reaper X's points, and I personally feel they'd be unnecessary anyways. WesleyDodds 20:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would the logos be "appropriate" somewhere else in the article as a whole? I think it would contribute to the people that are trying to "connect the dots" ('I saw this heart symbol on a poster, what band is that?'). StevePrutz 14:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really can't think of a way to fit it into the article. It's not like the Nine Inch Nails logo where it's quite important in the aesthetics of the group and how it presents itself (ie. stamped on all related projects and merchandise). WesleyDodds 01:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add SP Logos 

message: I recall Billy and the band's taping policy coming into question previously. Although it's well known that the Pumpkins support taping, there were few verifiable sources (save the DVD commentary for the "Perfect" video). Their new taping policy includes video as well. http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/news_1003
MMBKG 14:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't think the band's taping policy is all that important. WesleyDodds 15:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taper-Friendliness 

message: I have requested that this article is featured on the main page for July 10, the American release date for Zeitgeist. See it at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests#Date_requests and comment if you like. -- Reaper  X 04:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've worked on an article ("Smells Like Teen Spirit") that's been on the main page. Let me just say from experience that if this one goes up on the 10th, I hope everybody has plenty of free time that day and is ready to revert like hell. WesleyDodds 07:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Been there, done that as well. -- Reaper  X 07:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you got my vote. Too bad I am on vacation that week and won't be able to help out. Johnnyw talk 09:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I wouldn't worry too much about the reversion factor - there will be more eyes on the article from good editors too. And there is a contingent of people who do monitor the main page article specifically for vandalism. But the more, the merrier! Girolamo Savonarola 14:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Main page request

message: The article states Zeitgeist is going to be released 10 July (and that it's 'announced'). This information is not right. I've just been to my local CD store and bought the album... I was surprised they had the CD because I thought this article was accurate.
Emmaneul (Talk) 17:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Errors happen both ways. Your CD store may not actually have been authorized to do that. If there are a significant number of people (in the hundreds or thousands) who are able to legally obtain the album today, it will probably merit a mention. Short of that, we have to stick to the official press release, which is sourceable and considered a notable source. A single personal account is not enough, unfortunately. I hope you're enjoying the album, though! :) Girolamo Savonarola 18:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Stores often get their merchandise before the actual street date (they just keep it in the back), and sometimes they put it out early by mistake. WesleyDodds 21:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:ALBUMS is a guideline, not a policy. We use what works best for each individual article. While I understand the intention behind listing the earliest release date, I reverted back to the July tenth date for simple consistency with the other release dates in the article, which are the American release dates. The UK, for instance, tends to release albums the day before the US. It's also the iTunes release date, and as far as I understand, that isn't specific to one country. WesleyDodds 07:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, to be consistent and to follow the guidelines we should change the other dates too. I think that would make sense because Wikipedia is a global phenomenon. The music of any artist is known from the earliest release date onwards, then, "the global community" can listen to the artist’s music for the first time.Emmaneul (Talk) 08:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's if we choose to do that. I've worked on album pages for American and British artists, and, like the use of American and British English in an article, the preference is generally to indicate domestic release dates. WesleyDodds 08:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, there you have a point. But I'd like to say the following to editors of this article, please keep WP:3RR and WP:OWN in mind. Every change or addition seems to get reverted. We don't need wikipedian police, even if most of the additions are crappy.Emmaneul (Talk) 23:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we all appreciate the sentiment, but given this is a Featured Article maintained by at least a half-dozen other editors besides myself, the "crappy" edits (ranging from misspelled and unverified good faith edits to outright vandalism) will be fixed as quickly as possible, as is expected and hoped for for articles of this calibre. WesleyDodds 23:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Release date Zeitgeist 

message: Pisces Iscariot is being added to the discography on the main page from time to time. I noticed that these good faith edits are often being reverted by some of the owners of this article, without any discussion. Apparantly some editors feel Pisces Iscariot should be in the list, and in fact, I agree... Why not include B-side albums in the list (like f.e. in the article of System of a Down)? As far as I know Pisces Iscariot is the only B-side album tSP released (except for Judas O but that's a bonus CD). This makes sense, doesn't it? Emmaneul (Talk) 12:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The mini discography on the article is just a list of albums, with the main discography in a seperate article.  Pisces, while LP length, is not an album, so doesn't belong there.  If you include Pisces Iscariot, why not include Earphoria? and Judas O? and Rotten Apples? and the iTunes b-side collection?  It's strictly albums only, otherwise the list grows unnessecarily while there's a whole discography article.  MrHate 00:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What he said. WesleyDodds 02:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Likewise. KISS principle. Girolamo Savonarola 03:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK Emmaneul (Talk) 07:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, after seeing the edits adding Pisces, and then the reverts by people who think their opinion matters more and is thereby the correct one, I am for adding Pisces...as well as Judas O and Earphoria to the list on the page.  There is no rule somewhere saying those releases could not be added to this section.  It is simply some peoples personal preference.  The section is not titled "Studio Albums," It is titled "Discography." --ScottyBoy900Q 15:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, we can add Judas O, Earphoria etc, but then we'd have to add The Aeroplane Flies High, a set of singles, so if we include those, we should include other singles right? And it goes on and on.  There's an article that details *all* of this, so there's no point in listing it on the main article.  MrHate 10:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The point of article splits is to allow the main article to lightly gloss over the subject and refer the reader to the split-off article for more information in depth. This is considered standard summary style per MOS. Girolamo Savonarola 15:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason to gloss over.  Especially in a featured article. --ScottyBoy900Q 15:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I see every reason to follow the MOS. Most especially in a featured article. Girolamo Savonarola 16:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pisces Iscariot 

message: I apologize if this has been covered before, but I noticed that here (and similarly on some other band pages) elements of their music (or, "influences" on some other band pages) are listed in the text as "gothic rock, heavy metal, dream pop, psychedelic rock, progressive rock, shoegazer", whereas in the sidebar at top, the genre is listed as the more all-encompasing "alternative". How do you draw the distinction between the two?
:It's obviously subjective where the line between the two lies, but influence does not equal genre. For example, Tonight, Tonight is clearly influenced by classical music, for instance, but no one would seriously suggest that the song is a classical piece.Girolamo Savonarola 23:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Primarily because even though they are influenced by a number of genres, they distill it into a rather standard 90s alternative rock sound: loud distorted guitars, lots of dynamics, and ironic, personal, and angst-rioidden lyrics. Additionally, gothic rock, dream pop, and shoegaze are all alternative rock subgenres. WesleyDodds 23:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the instructions for the infobox specifically say "aim for generality".  Overly specific sub-genres (and sub-sub-genres) tend to be somewhat subjective and occasionally contentious.  That sort of thing is better dealt with in the body of the article.  The infobox is designed to give a quick overview to everyone, even those who may not be familiar with all these various sub-genres, Specifics belong in the article, generalities in the infobox.  Also, listing several sub-genres in the infobox tends to give it a cluttered, ugly look.  You may see articles with lots of specific sub-genres listed there, but I suspect you'll find that few of those have reached featured article status.  Xtifr tälk 11:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  genre (question about) 

message: Okay, on The Smashing Pumpkins discography page Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness has a source saying it has only sold 4.51 million copies this doesn't make sense because on the same table it says that it is 9x Platinum, I'm pretty shure that it is 9x Platinum, the source is from MTV.com that is not a very reliable source as they screw up a lot of stuff, so I think that should be fixed. Skeeker [Talk] 18:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a double album. Double albums are double counted by the RIAA as of 1997. It's sold 4.5 million copies, but because it's a double, the RIAA gives it credit for nine million. This is why albums like The Beatles (white album) and Pink Floyd's The Wall have such huge numbers. They're double albums and thus double counted. 74.77.208.52 20:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Furthermore, there's already a footnote on this page that clarifies the RIAA certification of double albums. WesleyDodds 21:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, I get it, that's pretty dumb I think ;)Skeeker [Talk] 21:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is and it isn't. While it doesn't make sense if you look at the album as a single work, it makes sense when evaluating it by units sold - you're convincing consumers to buy two discs of your music at once, and at a higher price than a normal album. That both discs happen to be packaged together is irrelevant for the RIAA. Girolamo Savonarola 21:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Ahh that makes sense, thanks for clearing that up. Skeeker [Talk] 00:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sales