Talk:La La (song)/Archive 1

message: Let me summarize the dispute here, because this page is getting quite long. We will work to a resolution, I'm sure that we will, we just have to know where we all stand. In the first place, Reene thinks that the page should be redirected to Autobiography (album). I strongly disagree with this, and from what I can tell, John does too. I feel that this is not something we can really compromise on, because by its very nature there are only two ways it can end up. Therefore I propose listing it on VfD so as to establish community consensus, but only if both sides pledge to respect that consensus, whatever it is. I'll make that pledge.
The other issue seems to be with the second paragraph, which some users seem to believe is POV. I'm very tired right now, and I have trouble understanding this even when I'm wide awake, but I think the basic issue is that the terms "energetic" and "rock-oriented" are considered POV. Is this correct? So there are two ways we could resolve that, really, if the dispute is really that simple: either everyone can agree that the song is indeed energetic and rock-oriented, and that no controversy exists regarding this, or some of us can disagree with that characterization, and show that there is a legitimate basis for disputing it. For my part, I consider "energetic" and "rock-oriented" value-neutral terms, and I don't see how anybody can disagree with the use of these terms if they've heard the song. If someone does disagree, I'd like to hear an argument to that effect. That way we can stop running in circles and actually get somewhere. Everyking 11:48, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding terms that refer to subjective, rather than objective, evaluation (such as "energetic" or "rock-oriented"), I'm not sure how we should approach them (maybe we should include them only when reporting someone else's opinion? I'm not sure.) However, consider the Featured Article Louis Armstrong#Music: The improvisations which he made on these records of New Orleans jazz standards and popular songs of the day, to the present time stack up brilliantly alongside those of any other later jazz performer. The older generation of New Orleans jazz musicians often referred to their improvisations as "variating the melody"; Armstrong's improvisations were daring and sophisticated for the time while often subtle and melodic. He often essentially re-composed pop-tunes he played, making them more interesting. Armstrong's playing is filled with joyous, inspired original melodies, creative leaps, and subtle relaxed or driving rhythms. The genius of these creative passages is matched by Armstrong's playing technique, honed by constant practice, which extended the range, tone and capabilities of the trumpet. — Matt 12:56, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That's obvious POV, IMO. I mean, "genius of these creative passages"? Johnleemk | Talk 12:59, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: John, will you not respond to me and discuss the problems in the second paragraph? For God's sake, I don't want this to stay protected, but I can't get it unprotected until everyone's concerns have been addressed. I don't see what more I can do, and frankly I'm at my wit's end here. A discussion has to have at least two sides. As for you, Matt, thanks for your input. Everyking 13:03, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I thought I already told you, didn't I? Yes, I believe I did, and you only responded saying you would ignore me because I was (admittedly) uncivil. Johnleemk | Talk 16:50, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Out of curiosity, I polled some Ashlee Simpson fans, and among fans in a certain livejournal community there appears to be "rough consensus" on the point. However, it's still something where intellegent people can disagree—rather unlike the fact that it's the third single, or a song with such-snd-such weeks on a chart. Cool Hand Luke 20:39, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Where we stand