Talk:David Myatt/Archive 1

message: http://nexion3.tripod.com/myatt_muslim.html
*That link is dead. On this question of Myatt being a Muslim, see Myatt's personal website at
http://www.dwmyatt.info/
and in particular
http://www.dwmyatt.info/jstatement1.html
This, written 27 Rabi al-Awal 1426 (Jan 2005), clearly states - "That over seven years ago I converted to Islam and, despite recent rumours and disinformation, I am still a Muslim, Alhamdulillah, and I shall remain a Muslim, InshaAllah."
Myatt has continued to post on Islamic forums using his Muslim name. 213.122.109.1 04:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See also http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=61ud64  Islam-Online   which is more recent Coolmoon 08:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Myatt still a Muslim?

message: How much of a British Empire was there between 1950 and 1967?  RickK 06:18, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
:Less than there was half a century before, certainly, but enough for his father to have been employed in its administration if that's the statement in the article you're refering to. See British_empire#Decolonisation. Plenty of African countries achieved their independence in the 1960s. — Trilobite (Talk) 13:16, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: British Empire?

message: Hi, SlimVirgin. You will have seem my comment above asking for the RfAr to be removed. Also sent you a message re this. As for Myatt's convictions, they are mentioned in several Searchlight articles, especially the April 1998 one (headline - "David Myatt: The Most Evil Nazi in Britain") and also in the July 2000 issue which was mostly devoted to Copeland, headline for Myatt stuff was "Theoretician of Terror". Myatt served two terms of imprisonment for political violence. BTW, these articles also mention Myatt was a monk - as does the Nick Ryan book, "Homeland". Coolmoon 07:29, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Myatt's Criminal Convictions

message: The article, as it stands, lacks a good chronologically-based narrative.  I appreciate the difficulty of establishing the facts regarding Myatt, but it seems that (with a bit of "source-based research") it would be possible to establish, for example: "During this period of time Myatt advocated X.  In the following year he began to champion Y."  —Morning star 16:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Moring Star - liked you addition giving details of Myatt's conversion to Islam. It does add something hitherto lacking to the Myatt article, improving the narrative. Coolmoon 06:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Removed the last part of Morning Star's addition because it is a quote from "a personal website". See the detailed discussion above relating to credible sources. While I'm in favor personally of keeping the quote, we have to abide by the rules of Wikipedia here. I'm sure SlimVirgin (and others) will correct me if I'm mistaken. 67.159.26.65 13:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Coolmoon - it's clear that the new site at www.dwmyatt.info (of which there is a mirrow at http://david.myatt.tripod.com) is Myatt's personal site, and that the lineone site is out of date, containing Myatt's now somewhat old Islamic/Islamist writings (old as in one or two years out of date). Up until you changed the URL, for some time the link given in the Wikipedia article for Myatt personal site (lineone) was to a javascript redirect (abdul_aziz.html) to the Myatt info site. The URL I'm talking about is http://website.lineone.net/~davidmyatt/abdul_aziz.html 67.159.26.65 06:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Narrative flow

message: * I have amended the intro, since Myatt has made it quite clear in several recent public statements - see for example http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=61ud64  Islam-Online - that he is a former neo-nazi. His writings - such as on his own-website at http://www.davidmyatt.info/ - make it quite clear that he is an Islamist as Islamist is defined  in Wikipedia. Coolmoon 08:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We've discussed before that we can't keep on using his personal websites as sources. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Slim Virgin - they are not his personal websites! That was my point. The items are on several other Islamic sites, one of which is among the most highly respected Muslim sites on the Web, to wit IslamOnLine. Coolmoon 04:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Myatt Islamist

message: I have reverted to my edit, since it is my belief that giving Myatt's reply to libelous unproven allegations restores NPOV. I have given two sources - one from Myatt's own website, which, according to my reading of Wikipedia guidelines, is quite acceptable in an article about a living person.
My view is that the comments of Mr Gable - quoted several times in the Wikipedia article about Myatt - give a biased view, particularly as they represent his personal view regarding Myatt, given that Mr Gable provides no proof for any of the allegations he makes about Myatt, and given that Mr Gable is heavily involved in a political organization which actively opposes the political views that Myatt has espoused. 65.57.106.15 08:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Giving Myatt's Reply Restores NPOV

message: I have amended the internal link, in the Myatt article, to the main Wikipedia article on Satanism, as that Satanism article - unjustifiably it seems to me - deals only with one type of modern Satanism (relating to Anton La Vey) which type of Satanism is totally different from the type that Myatt is alleged, by Searchlight magazine and others, to have been involved with. Therefore, I have made the link point to the ONA. Coolmoon 11:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to Wikipedia Satanism article

message: His "translations" are published on dubious geocities sites, 
amazon has no entry on his alleged works, copyright issues are dealt with by claims of email notification. There's no proof the he even speaks greek, he could've paraphrased prior translations. There's no peer review, no print publication, no authoritative info on his work's factuality or its quality. Mentioning his translations relies merely on him claiming authorship using some pseudonym. This should be deleted until proven true. --tickle me 13:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "...still supports neo-Nazi groups and contributes to their websites. This letter is probably some kind of bluff in their favour." "
Besides you wholesale revert deleted my changes on the dubious translation claims. Why don't you at least add  to it? --tickle me 03:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not following what you're saying, Tickle. First, I reverted your ref addition because this page uses embedded links and it looks a bit odd to have just one footnote. Regarding the books, they're available on Amazon. Are you saying you doubt that is really him? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In response to Mr/Miss/Ms Tickle-Me. Myatt's full name is David Wulstan Myatt - hence DW Myatt. DW Myatt is David Myatt - and has published works under both David Myatt and DW Myatt, for example his poetry (for which refer to Ms Julie Wright's Myatt site, for example). Furthermore, since his conversion to Islam, Myatt has written and published articles using both the names Abdul Aziz and Abdul-Aziz Ibn Myatt. You are just stating your opinion that the DW Myatt of Greek translation and poetry fame, is not David Myatt, former neo-nazi and Islamist, even though if you go to the British Library and check the published Greek texts, you will find the name "David Myatt" on them. You seem to have some aversion to Myatt, of the Searchlight kind, methinks, and so insist of trying to rubbish the man - possibly because you disagree with his political or religious views, or both. May I suggest you write your opinions about Myatt elsewhere and observe Wiki NPOV? Coolmoon 10:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Tickle, here are Myatt's publications on Amazon. It doesn't matter if they're self-published (and I don't know whether they are) because we're not using them as sources or listing them anywhere other than in his own article. See WP:V and WP:RS. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In reply to "Tickle Me" again - please stop pushing your own prejudice, bias, against Myatt so obvious in your phrases like "his boastings" and your unproven assumption that he does not know Greek. You have ignored the fact that academics use his Greek translations so that even if they were publishd by him, they have been found to be useful and accepted by academics. You seem to be pushing your own agenda here - just who are you, attacking someone while hiding behind an anonymous name? I might write that there is *no indication at all* that you have even read his Greek translations or know anything at all about him other than what you have read on the Internet. Now, pace - for had you taken the trouble to read his now out of print published Greek translations, you would have seen the notes, often in Greek, in them. Books, BTW, go out of print, and accordingly may not be listed by Amazon. Please do try to keep NPOV. Coolmoon 05:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

text: SlimVirgin, I didn't expect amazon.com to yield other results than amazon.co.uk, that was a real blunder. However I didn't contend the existence of the books in the first place but the factuality of his translations. Would we write that he has a PhD or discovered America if he claimed so? It is claimed here that they're used in academe, I found some mentions online in this regard and will try to get specific information. --tickle me 07:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries, Tickle. There seems no doubt that he's published translations, which is pretty interesting in itself even if they're not very good (and I'm not saying they're not; just that I don't know either way). We don't comment on the quality of them, so I see no harm in leaving it in, though it'd be good if we could say more. If they really have been used as textbooks, that would be extremely interesting, and might even merit being used in the intro. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tickle: why are you still making an assumption - without evidence - about Myatt? You make claims about his Greek translations - and it is therefore for you to provide some evidence for your claim. It does seem you have no evidence and are just putting forward your view regarding Myatt. Why is that? What is your agenda, in respect of Myatt? It does seem you bias is rather showing and that yu are on some kind of crusade, here. It is interesting that you do not reply to my comments. Coolmoon 05:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Results of my inquiries on D. Myatt's translations. --tickle me 15:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hey, Tickle Me. Have you read Myatt's Greek translations? Seems you're on something of an anti-Myatt crusade here. Please inform us why. 81.131.120.63 06:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A point well-made in respect of user Tickle. I might also suggest Tickle read Myatt's poetry - and make some comment on them, or try to debunk them. Although I disagree with a great deal Myatt has written prior to his reversion to Islam, I do accept he is an interesting individual who deserves to be studied in an unbiased way. If Professor George Michael can say that Myatt "has arguably done more that any other theorist to develop a synthesis of the extreme right and Islam," then Myatt deserves some attention. Tickle and others like him who present their rather prejudiced views about Myatt might not be aware of Myatt's growing influence - or they may well be, which might explain their political attitude and attempts to debunk him. This recent comment, from an Internet forum: "Myatt is a very intelligent man. I believe he has a deeper purpose with everything he does. There is nothing is his writings about NS I disagree with. І соuld саll myѕelf а Мyаttіаn." Coolmoon 17:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OT: some trolling. Mr. Myatt, I had no intentions of ever reacting, but methinks this is funny, so here goes. Of course, it'll cease to be funny once google catches up with this talk page... Besides, "Myatt is a very intelligent man...": That's one bold stance, at least not confirmed by this page. But hell, you don't let loose for sure. Best: --tickle me 02:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek translations

message: Comments (in this instance by Tickle Me) such as "He's a notorious liar..." which were appended to an edit, are not suitable, and go against Wiki NPOV. You, Tickle, are making an unproven accusation, as you have done before - please keep your personal opinions out of Wikipedia. You offer no proof for your malicious and libellous statement. Slim Virgin - please do something about this as it is surely against Wiki policy that someone presents their biased views and makes such libellous statements. Previously we had used Richard0 making such claims. Now we have Tickle. Tomorrow, who knows? Coolmoon 04:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the reference to the Final Conflict pamphlet - it is not a book; and contains only allegations and rumours, not evidence, as well as being a neo-nazi and racist publication distributed by a few people on the neo-nazi fringe. 81.131.12.24 05:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I quote - <quote>Jimmy Wales has said: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." </quote>  Maybe this can be applied here to comments by users such as TickleMe?   NPOV is important! 81.131.86.246 18:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumors, Libel and NPOV

message: When providing citations, could people please supply the page number if it's a book? Also, there's no need to use the cite templates, as they only make more work: just write give the full citation, then close the ref like this . If you think the ref might be used again, give it a name: give the full citation, then close . The second time it's used, all we have to write is . SlimVirgin (talk) 21:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The section below has been unsourced for a long time, so I'm moving it here. We need full citations of third-party sources, articles, paper, or books, with page numbers if the latter. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When Charlie Sargent of Combat 18 was arrested [when was he arrested], later receiving a life sentence for murder in 1998, Myatt took the leadership position of the "Sargent loyalist faction" in the internecine conflicts within Combat 18.  Myatt also founded and led the neo-Nazi Reichsfolk organization, [Kaplan, J. (1998) 115 ; Kaplan, J. (ed) (2000) 216, 512] and founded and was the first leader of the National-Socialist Movement. [Goodrik-Clarke, 2002, p.50]
* Hi SlimVirgin - and thanks for the additional references from Professor George Michael's book which added some much needed context.Coolmoon 03:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you. :-)  (talk) 06:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  My edit has given Myatt's view in respect of the comments made by George Michael since this is only fair and restores in my opinion the NPOV. In respect of sources, I have quoted the article in The Times of London newspaper, one article from Myatt's personal website, and one article from the Islam OnLine website, which is one of the largest and most respected Islamic sites online. Regarding using as a source an article from Myatt's own site, I do think this is allowable according to the Wikipedia guidelines, given that the article is about Myatt, and the quote from George Michael makes a specific point, which Myatt himself disagrees with and has contradicted publicly several times in the past year or more. In addition, according to the Wikipedia Guidelines, "Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves." Cloudnajafi 05:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added another reference - also from Myatt's personal site, although note please that this interview has also appeared elsewhere on the web, for example at http://revolutioninternational.blogspot.com/2006/03/interview-with-abdul-aziz-ibn-myatt.html and was also quoted at length in the article in The Times of London newspaper. Cloudnajafi 06:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi CloudNajafi. [Cool name, BTW!] If you care to look at the archive here, you'll see a discussion between myself and SlimVirgin regarding changing the article when a personal site is updated. If you also check out her contribs you'll see she is on the ball regarding Wikipedia policy. In the discussion I had with her, I had to admit she was correct, and I was mistaken. Thus, I don't believe you can do what you have done. Therefore, I now have reverted to the previous edit, removing your recent edit of the Myatt article here. If your assertion is correct, then when we have a verifiable source, not a personal website, this assertion can be included. Also, I can't find two of your references (URL's) on the Myatt site. Coolmoon 07:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have read the archive, and with due respect, Coolmoon, I disagree and have put back my edit which you removed. I think it's important to give Myatt's version here, and using The Times article is a good, credible source. Did you read the quotation I gave about using self-published sources? This applies here, I think, so that my edit gives a balanced view in line with Wikipedia policy. If George Michael's view is given without any comment it unbalances the section, and seems to label Myatt a Murtad, which is a very serious matter, and not to be taken at all lightly. Cloudnajafi 22:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK then Coolmoon, i agree. Thanks for the advice. I've read a lot more of the guidelines and policies here, and I'll undo my changes, restoring your edit. I've also checked out Mr Myatt's sites and those of his supporters and fans. His Islam site (if it was his) has been removed, and his personal site (linked to in the main article here) contains many new articles and items (May through to July, this year) suggestive of his withdrawal from Islam. You're right as well about two of the links I gave - they're dead as of today. Cloudnajafi 06:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you, Cloudnajafi! Re your comments about Myatt's Islam: I have added a new section on this Talk page and given a quote from one of his new essays.Coolmoon 07:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: In view of the recent discussion with Cloudnajafi on this Talk page, I give here a quote taken from one of Myatt's newer articles on his personal website. The articles appear to indicate his rejection of Islam and a change of heart. These newer articles further seem to indicate a development of what he calls The Numinous Way, toward a Buddhist like compassion. Those interested might read articles such as http://www.davidmyatt.info/compassion.html and http://www.davidmyatt.info/recent_writings_numen.html. Here is the quote I mentioned taken from http://www.davidmyatt.info/no_ideology.html - 
"One of my mistakes was to hope that Islam might offset the lack of numinosity so evident in the modern, urbanized, West, and that it might undermine the materialism, the abstractions, of the West in a quite practical way and so enable the world, and our own folk, to be free of these abstractions, and free of the physical tyranny, the world order, the world-government, the supporters of such abstractions were creating. But this just encouraged suffering; it created more suffering. It distanced me - and others - from the numen; from what is ethical, right, honourable, compassionate. My intentions may have seemed, to me, to be good, and noble, but that was no excuse. Yet I made it an excuse for some time, unwilling to rigorously apply the ethics of The Numinous Way to what I was supporting and encouraging. In the end, I had to make some fundamental decisions, some choices - and my decision was to reform myself; to apply the ethics of The Numinous Way to everything. That is, I realized that the cessation of suffering - and everything that goes with it, such as empathy, honour, and personal love - is the most important thing: not some short or long term strategy; not some tactics to bring about some change; not some future vision, not some causal form which one might use, in the present, to bring about some allegedly "good" changes in the future. The cessation of suffering has to start in the moment; it had to be part of me, part of every individual, and that, as I tried to explain earlier, is the answer."
: Such quotes from such sites should be treated with caution, in my view. Contradictory quotes - affirming Myatt's Islam - are available on several other sites, plus there is the recent article in The Times (London) newspaper, mentioned in the main Myatt article here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2149297,00.html as well as the two articles Myatt wrote this year which are quoted in that newspaper article - http://ibnmyatt.tripod.com/convert2.html and http://ibnmyatt.tripod.com/ibnmyatt_interview.html. There is also a transcript on the Islam On-Line site, also this year, of Myatt answering questions from Muslims from around the world in which he again affirms his Islam - http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=61ud64 . Here is Myatt's own transcript - http://ibnmyatt.tripod.com/replies-online.html 65.57.106.34 21:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correct - such items in respect of Myatt having left Islam should be viewed with great caution, as there is no proven authorship, in this case. In the article by Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt (aka David Myatt) quoted in The Times, ibn Myatt has this to say when asked about rumors in respect of his having left Islam: "Bismillah. No, they [the rumors] are not correct. I am a Muslim, Alhamdulillah, and I shall remain a Muslim, InshaAllah." http://abdulhaqq.jeeran.com/ibnmyatt_interview.html. In a previous entry here, I wrote that is an extremely serious matter to call ibn Myatt, or any Muslim, a murtad. I shall quote what ibn Myatt himself writes regarding this matter, again quoting from one of the sources used by The Times newspaper, which, I think, makes this source a most suitable one, if not a primary source in Wikipedia terms, and therefore outweighs the unverified ones quoted here by others. ibn Myatt writes: "as I wrote in my Thinking Like a Muslim, when we undertake Shahadah - testifying to and declaring our acceptance of Islam before witnesses - we are making a binding oath of loyalty, bayah, on our honour, to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and His Messenger, Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). This is a life-long oath, loyalty unto death to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and to His Messenger, Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). If we break this oath - if we abandon the duty we have sworn to do - we are being dishonourable, and it is right that those who break such a sacred oath as this are killed. Over eight years ago, I gave this oath, and it is as binding today as it was then. Thus I cannot, and will not, InshaAllah, break this oath of loyalty." (An Interview with Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt) Cloudnajafi 22:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Myatt's Islam and The Numinous Way

message: I have reverted to previous edits because it does seem as if I was mistaken about Myatt, for he's returned to what he's called *the numinous way*. So I'll stop being stubborn, and won't do what I've been doing which is changing the edits of five or six people over the past six months or so who objected to my claims about Myatt's continuing commitment to Islam. Coolmoon 05:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Myatt's Islam

message: Hi, SlimVirgin! Re the link there to the book reported to be by Long and Myatt (Black Book) for which Amazon gives the  and the date 1984. A search of the British Library shows up two books with that title, both authored by Long and ONA: 1) 094664604X 2nd ed 1984 and 2) 0946646058 around the same time. A search of ISBN's for the publisher finds: 0946646007 Changes by D.W. Myatt; 094664604X Black Book (as above); 0946646058 Book Wyrd (as above); 0946646082 Sappho, DW Myatt. That is, no details for the ISBN given by Amazon, anywhere - at least anywhere I've found so far. So, I've no idea where Amazon got the info from for this particular book. I'll have another look, soon, when work blah blah permits. Coolmoon 10:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Amazon Link