Talk:Mount Vernon, Baltimore

message: I always hate being pedantic about someone's perfectly good article when I didn't do a damn thing to contribute to it. :)  However, to be very precise, the "Gay Pride Festival" takes place annualy at Druid Hill Park, outside of Mt. Vernon.  The parade, block party, and almost every other event in connection with Pride Weekend happens in Mt. Vernon, though.  I am going to try to unobtrusively reword the article to be technically correct. kdogg36 21:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gay pride festival

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :(includes notes which were removed from article, from when it was under construction for a time)
Yes, a big portion is in a National Historic Landmark District, the Mount Vernon Place Historic District, which is centered on the Washington Monument by Robert Mills.  It includes the four parks radiating out from it, and buildings on their sides and more, seems possibly mainly a big rectangle. With  It was listed in 1971.  Refnum is 71xxxx.  It was designated NHLD then too.  It is approximately a rectangle four blocks north south, and three blocks east-west, centered on the monument, which rises 156 ? ft
This NPS page titled Mount Vernon Place Historic District is no help whatsoever.  Is there an old NHL page?
Page 9s map shows it outlined, labelled "Mount Vernon Historic and Architectural District" conforming to property bounds described. It overlaps with a Mount Vernon project p9 Also there are various? Mount Vernon urban renewal areas, one for acquisitions, one 
NRHP DOC boundaries: Property bounded on the south by Hamilton Street; on the west by the
alley between Cathedral Street and Park Avenue [maybe labelled Ploy St. in Google maps]; in the north by Read Street
to the east end of Lot 31, following the eastern edge of Lots 31, 30, 29,
28, and 27 the northern edge of Lots,17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8
(all Block 517), crossing St. Paul Place to northern edge of Lot 21, Block
518; and on the east by Gore Alley. [which i am guessing is what's labelled Hargrove St., symmetrically across from the alley btwn Cathedral and Park Avenue, this is between St. Paul St and N. Calvert St.] 
Mount Vernon Place was city's first historic district, was later NRHP-listed.  Maybe this is a very slow-loading page?
Here's a HABS slideshow: https://www.loc.gov/resource/hhh.md0204.photos?st=slideshow.
--Doncram (talk) 04:06, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: notes on National Historic Landmark District and more

message: ::sorry, i took a bunch of notes in here...
I am thinking it would help to name in bold, and to define briefly at least, in the lede, a number of terms:
*Mt. Vernon Square or Mount Vernon Square, as name of the small square holding the Washington Monument (Baltimore)?  It is where north-south Charles St. and east-west Monument St. would intersect.
*Mt. Vernon Place, which I am thinking is the cruciform or plus-sign shape of Mt. Vernon Square plus parks radiating out north, south, east, west.  Or is it just the radiations, not the center square?  Note Mount Vernon Place at mountvernonplace.org, i.e. the Mount Vernon Place Conservancy, runs events in the squares, and seems to define Mount Vernon Place as the cruciform, but then incorrectly/incompletely states it "is" a National Historic Landmark District. No, it is included in one.
*The Baltimore City Landmark "Washington Monument and Mount Vernon Place" which I think is the above two, i.e. the full cruciform shape.  Its definition gives "Charles Street at Mount Vernon Place" as location, which doesn't define bounds, but I think they mean the monument and radiating parks only.
*The Mount Vernon Place Historic District (call this MVPHD), as listed on the NRHP and designated a NHLD in 1971, defined specifically by map included in 1972-prepared NRHP/NHL document which happens to be available at Maryland Historic Trust: this 1972 NRHP/NHL document "NR-63.pdf", with map on PDF page 24 showing the NHLD labelled as "National Register Historic District" (and also showing a larger district labelled as "Baltimore City Historic District").  Document does not list all HD buildings as more recent NRHP HD documents would.  Anyhow this district is a legal thing, determining which properties are eligible for various tax subsidies and grants for renovations.  Confusingly, the NPS Mount Vernon Place Historic District page at NPS (which is an external link in the article, is actually INCORRECT or it is so INCOMPLETE that it seems unhelpful.  It states that "Mount Vernon Place Historic District is comprised of four rectangular parks-- East and West Mount Vernon Place and North and South Washington Place."  If one stops there, that is false.  The MVPHD, as defined in NRHP/NHL document, is a larger near-rectangular area going about 1.5 to 2 blocks north south east west.  It goes on to say "These garden parks, and the houses that line them, form the setting for the Washington Monument, the first major monument in the country to honor the first President", which does not say that the houses that line them are included in the MVPHD.  And that does not mention the streets and properties that fill out the full near-rectangle.  So overall I view this NPS page to be FALSE.
*What is "Washington Monument and Mount Vernon Square", as defined by MHT, if that is something different?  See this MHT map of "B-6" which points to the center square but does not show an outline including any of the north south east west radiating parks.  It mentions "Charles Street at Mount Vernon Place" too.
*Mount Vernon Historic District is the local historic district, is one of 84? historic districts covered by CHAP.  Any local historic district(s) defined by Baltimore in this general area, as one or more of the 24 or 37 historic districts variously mentioned?  Presumably one of these, by some name, is or was the area labelled "Baltimore City Historic District" on page 24 map?  And there is a different outlined area on page 9 map, identified as a 1968 CHAP-defined area, the "MT. VERNON PRESERVATION DISTRICT" as it was apparently defined during May 21, 1964 to 16 December 1968.
*What is area of Mount Vernon neighborhood, and what is its formal name?  And Midtown-Belvidere neighborhood?  The article currently states "The Baltimore City Planning Commission defines the neighborhood as being bound by Eager Street to the North, The Jones Falls Expressway (JFX, aka Interstate 83) to the east, Franklin Street to the South, and Eutaw Street to the West. The Commission also considers the northern section to be the Midtown-Belvedere neighborhood after the Belvidere estate of John Eager Howard, the Revolutionary War patriot."  Are both "Belvedere" and "Belvidere" proper?
*What is the "Mount Vernon-Belvedere" term used in the article?  (Perhaps as if it is synonymous to Mount Vernon neighborhood?  Is it meant to be the combo of two separate or two overlapping neighborhoods?)
*What area is covered by the Mount Vernon - Belvedere Association and what is it named?
**The MVBA defines its area as a large one.  See their "Our boundaries" map, at MVBA maps, which also defines and provides maps of the LOCAL HISTORIC DISTRICT (meaning, apparently, "Mount Vernon Historic District", one of 84 CHAP-administered local historic districts in Baltimore), the FEDERAL HISTORIC DISTRICT (meaning the Mount Vernon Place Historic District, showing map consistent with NRHP/NHLD document's map), the MIDTOWN BENEFITS DISTRICT, the DOWNTOWN PARTNERSHIP, and HISTORIC CHARLES STREET.  The MVBA speaks as if it runs the historic preservation regulation program?  Or is there one preservation committee of the CHAP covering all 84, or what?
***MVBA Architectural Review page describes its Architectural Review Committee (ARC), which works in an advisory capacity only(?) or does it make its own recommendations (?) to CHAP re a given project.  Yikes, too much!
*City of Baltimore Planning has Mt. Vernon Master Plan, developed during 2011-13 (last revised 12/2/2013).  Its text re history has lots interesting.  Uses "Greek cross": "Sometime shortly after 1827, the heirs of John Eager Howard created house lots that faced four squares laid out in the form of a Greek cross. The area began attracting families of wealthy merchants, many of which grew up in town homes several blocks south. Over the next several decades, magnificent houses were built in the Federal, Greek Revival, and Italianate styles, all of which complemented the classical features of the Washington Monument."  Covers wrought iron fences around parks being removed in 1875. Robert Moses would have run a highway through 1 block south of monument. Baltimore Urban Renewal and Housing Authority In 1959, BURHA contracted with the Greater Baltimore Committee to produce an Urban Renewal Plan Report for Mount Vernon,... often revised, its extension failed, did take properties.  "Concurrent with urban renewal activities, the local historic district boundaries were also expanded in 1967 (approximately two blocks north of Mount Vernon Place) and in 1976 (up to Mount Royal Avenue). The boundaries expanded again in 1979, 2002, and 2006. / In 1996, the Midtown Community Benefits District was created by law as a citizen advocacy organization to provide supplemental benefits to four neighborhoods of Baltimore: Bolton Hill, Charles North, Madison Park, and Mount Vernon.36 These benefits included supplemental sanitation and security services, streetscape maintenance, and promotional activities. Funding became available through property tax surcharge, which was approved by voter referendum. A management authority was created to produce an annual budget and oversee the services. For sixteen years the organization has greatly reduced trash and garbage problems, including rodent control. In addition, the neighborhoods have reduced crime and greatly increased a sense of security. Although these issues are not directly tied to historic preservation, they are essential to the health of the community, which in turn is indirectly tied to the preservation of buildings."  Yikes, so many layers.  "In 2000, Jubilee Baltimore, a nonprofit development and planning organization, produced the Midtown Community Plan, which comprised four neighborhoods: Mount Vernon-Belvedere, Bolton Hill, Madison Park, and Charles North.37 This plan identified historic preservation as the central ingredient to its revitalization, “Midtown is historically and potentially the most beautiful, the most interesting, and the most sought-after part of Baltimore.38 But because three out of four of the neighborhoods were already local historic districts, the plan focused on other pressing issues: Traffic, lack of renovation and vacancy, poor streetscaping (especially lighting), incongruent zoning, and the need for a nonprofit development corporation. Within ten years, with Jubilee staffing the Midtown development corporation, more than 150 townhomes were restored to historic standards, an investment in four neighborhoods of more than $100 million. Today, all of Midtown is stable, and is 'attracting more investment that any other part of the City.'" "Mount Vernon is also a local historic district, which is conveyed by the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore and administered by the Baltimore City Commission for Historical and Architectural Preservation. Mount Vernon local historic district was created in 1964 and has been expanded six times. A local CHAP historic district is an area wherein there are located buildings and structures which have demonstrated special architectural, historical, cultural, economic, social, or community significance."
:"CHAP, the first commission of its kind in Maryland, has been the primary steward of this neighborhood for almost fifty years...."  Mt. Vernon is only local HD with separate guidelines?  "Properties within the Mount Vernon Local Historic District are subject to CHAP review and approval for all construction or demolition permit applications for exterior work in accordance with the Baltimore City Historic Preservation Procedures and Design Guidelines (2009). The complete Baltimore City Historic Preservation Procedures and Design Guidelines are available at: . Properties within the Mount Vernon CHAP Local Historic District are also subject to Mount Vernon specific guidelines for new construction. The complete Baltimore City’s Mount Vernon Historic District Design Guidelines for New Construction (2005)..."  There is a local Historic tax credits program. Its PDF page 20 map shows overlapping Mt Vernon Urban Renewal Plan area vs. CHAP HD area.  Zoning map.  Massing study results.   PDF page 60 is park vs. noncontributing buildings noncontributing lots map.  Master Plan area PDF page 61. PDF page 69 is 2012 code test(?) map.  2012 Market Study has much about neighborhood, survey results, satisfaction, etc. for article about neighborhood.  PDF page 116, study page 27, good summary tax credits programs.
***Baltimore City's Mount Vernon Historic District's Design Guidelines for New Construction, published by Baltimore City Department of Planning in 2005 and "adopted by" CHAP in 2005.  Its map on page 6 out of 40 shows outline of local Mount Vernon HD and also the National Register HD.  (And also part of nearby Bolton Hill Historic District, a local and national HD.)  Its PDF page 8 map identifies parcels Contributing vs. Non-Contributing Buildings vs. Non-Contributing vacant lots.  "Out of the more than 1,100 buildings in the Mount Vernon Historic District, less than 40 are considered non-contributing." PDF page 10 is detailed map of height restrictions.  Governs setback, orientation, scale, proportion, "rhythm", massing and composition, height, roofing, projections, materials, more.   "All new construction within the Mount Vernon Historic district must comply with the Mount Vernon Urban Renewal Plan."  PDF pages 35-36 are "Appendix One: Architectural and Historical Significance of the Mount Vernon Historic District [Period of Significance 1810-1945]", maybe good source.  Also there's "Appendix Two: Non-Contributing Buildings in the Mount Vernon Historic District" and "Appendix Three: Commission for Historical and Architectural Preservation (CHAP) Standards for Historic District Designation."
*What is the Mount Vernon Urban Renewal Plan, and its area?  Map in Master Plan doc, and enough description there.
*Baltimore City Council's District 11 Communities includes "Mt. Vernon" as one of its neighborhoods, with associated "Friends of Mount Vernon Place" (no link) and Mt. Vernon-Belvedere Association (link to mvba.org).
*Does the Mount Vernon Place Conservancy need to be explicitly mentioned, have its area of the cruciform defined?  Note it runs the Flower Mart, and "Flower Mart is Baltimore's oldest free public festival. / Flower Mart was founded in 1911 by the Women's Civic League, an organization formed to advocate for better living conditions in the City of Baltimore. A focal point of the original market was to encourage flower, plant, and vegetable gardening in the yards of homes and vacant lots—thereby making them green. / The Women’s Civic League managed the event for almost ninety years, and along the way the festival’s signature Lemon Stick treat was introduced—a porous peppermint stick used as a “straw” to suck the juice out of a halved lemon—sweety and tangy—and very refreshing."  There's also a bike race named The Flower Mart Criterium at Mount Vernon Place.
*Circuit Court? a Baltimore City Court? stepping in to overrule Planning Commission decisions, e.g. Judge reverses Planning Commission decision granting subdivision of Mount Vernon church in 2021] "the third time in 18 months that a Circuit Court judge has reversed a pro-developer decision by the Planning Commission, after another judge last year reversed two decisions involving investor Larry Jennings’ plans to develop properties in the Clipper Mill community in Woodberry. Jennings’ company, ValStone Partners, subsequently sold his holdings in Clipper Mill to another developer."
**Detail for NHLD article: "Mount Vernon Place United Methodist Church is one of the most photographed buildings in the city, completed in 1872 near the Washington Monument on the site where Francis Scott Key died in 1843. Its sanctuary seats 900 and its rose window is modeled after the one in the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. / Named after the first American Methodist bishop, Francis Asbury, Asbury House was built around 1855 as a private residence, acquired by the church in 1957 and legally combined with the church in 1961 to form one parcel. Both structures are listed on the National Register of Historic Places and are part of the city’s Mount Vernon historic district." (Judge reverses Planning Commission decision granting subdivision of Mount Vernon church.)
*Does Baltimore, Maryland, a National Park Service Discover Our Shared Heritage Travel Itinerary, which is an external link, have any different information, or need any mention beyond to indicate that the NPS is directing some tourists this way?
*Note the Baltimore National Heritage Area is much larger, and i think it only needs to be mentioned that as subsuming all the definitions of Mt. Vernon districts, neighborhood, etc. (if that is true, which I believe to be the case based on map BNHA Boundary Map.
*Note the article has external link to:  at the Maryland Historical Trust; and accompanying "nrb65.jpg" map, but the URL given for the accompanying map is no good.  Where is that map, what is this area?
Note currently all the redirects to this article (from "what links here" with "hide links" checked) are:
*Mt. Vernon (Baltimore) (redirect page)
*Mt. Vernon, Baltimore (redirect page)
*Mount Vernon Place Historic District (redirect to section "Mount Vernon Place Historic District")
*Mount Vernon, Baltimore, Maryland (redirect page)
*Mount Vernon Place (redirect page) ‎
And then also what is definitive list of Baltimore City Landmarks in the NHLD and in the larger neighborhood, etc. (to be addressed partly by adding coordinates to BCL article).
Argh, User:Ɱ and/or others, are these maps/definitions of entities, etc too much for this one article to cover?  Should the NHLD perhaps be split out as a separate article? It would be super great to have the overlapping areas defined mainly by use of a map which outlined them! --Doncram (talk) 21:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: See this link for definitive NRHP and BCL historic district boundaries. ɱ (talk) 16:29, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions and confusion on terms, which oughta be defined 

message: I now want to split out, to a separate article, coverage of the NRHP historic district / NHLD.  Like other historic district articles, this can/should go into detail of the individual buildings included in the district, probably as a table with one row per significant building, with photo and coordinates, etc.  In this case certainly covering all the Baltimore City Landmarks in the district.  This is too much detail for the Mount Vernon neighborhood article.  On the detail level, it could fully include/cover the Mount Vernon Place Conservancy as the cruciform is entirely contained, and then cover the Flower Mart and involvement of the Women's Civic League. --Doncram (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Split out detail to "Mount Vernon Place Historic District"

message: I created Washington Monument and Mount Vernon Place to define the area of the Baltimore City Landmark of that name.  The monument plus four radiating parks, is where events are held by Mount Vernon Place Conservancy, can it be covered there?  Perhaps with a name change?  Can Mount Vernon Place (now a redirect to Mount Vernon, Baltimore) be re-redirected to this?
Are the parks actually named East Mount Vernon Place, West Mount Vernon Place, North Washington Place and South Washington Place?  One or more are point locations in Google maps.  Are they GNIS locations of parks? --Doncram (talk) 16:31, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Split out coverage of Mount Vernon Place Conservancy and other about the parks