Talk:Dhikr

message: added . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 20:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Added

message: I was quite shocked upon initially reading this article; whoever wrote this current version didn't even attempt to present it in an unbiased manner.  The article states in clear language that certain methods of dhikr are allowed even though it also notes that this is disputed.  It is not the job of a Wikipedia article to decide whether or not this practice is acceptable, but rather to inform readers of it and showcase all opinions about it, both for and against. MezzoMezzo 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Major POV issues

message: I have tagged this article for clean-up, specifically the introduction. Why? Because the introduction to this article ends mid-sentence. What was it that was originally intended to be said? In any event, it needs to be corrected. --Sleckronmich (talk) 13:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Article absolutely needs cleanup with regard to the spelling of the word dhikr. There are well over 30 instances where the word is incorrectly spelled thikr, in flagrant disregard of all norms of Arabic transliteration. -- 7/11/2014  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CF44:A3B0:18F4:CA2C:1DE0:7AD9 (talk) 05:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

text: To be fair it probably needs more than just a clean up. I don't think there is any point launching into differences of opinion right from the beginning, and is there really a need for such a detailed exposition of the hadra with musical scores and everything? That statement about beads in prison is also very random. Baba farouq (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagged for clean-up 

message: I, too, think this text is too restrictive and not in accordance with Wikipedia's criteria for un-partiality. Others have commented on this (notably MezzoMezzo) but so far little seems to have been done about it.
From Indonesia to the west coast of Africa, on all continents in fact, people practice what they themselves call 'dhikr' (or zikr); as can be expected from such a wide range, the form this practice takes varies considerably. I understand why some may feel that a certain way is the only 'right way' to do dhikr, and that some other practices may not rightfully be called dhikr. However there are other, more suitable, platforms to defend this point of view; I do not think it is the task of Wikipedia to take this stand. Rather, I think, the article should point out that there are many different forms of what is - here I agree - essentially the same practice. From loud and very physical, through melodious and chant-like to meditative and/or silent. Practiced communal or in isolation. With words or without or in silence.
I'm not saying that the form as described in the article may not be called 'typical'; it well may be. I'm just saying, give other forms 'some space', either in a literal sense, or by at least formulating the text in a way that leaves other options open. Maybe, hopefully, adherents to other traditions will be more stimulated to expound on their way of practising Dhikr than the current text does.
If some feel that some of these practices should not be called dhikr, then that, too, can be be noted. (Although it is, i.m.h.o., a truism.)
Then: the term 'sunni islam' is mentioned many times in the article. The wording suggests Dhikr practice is exclusive to Sunni muslims, which it is not. Propose to strike the word 'Sunni' whereever it appears in the article.
Instead, it would, imho, be more helpful to point out the link between dhikr and sufism. Sufi's are to be found among all islamic traditions, and even outside of Islam. Moreover, sufi's, being (or aspiring to be) mystics, are notoriously averse to central authority and dogma as well as loyal to their line of teachers, which may explain the rich diversity in the forms dhikr practices can take.
Thus, for the first paragraph, I propose:
"Dhikr [...] is a devotional act in the sufi tradition, typically involving the recitation of the Names of god and of supplications taken from hadith texts and Qur'anic verses. Essentially, the practice of dhikr is a form of prayer or meditation in which is expressed the remembrance of god, either within or overtly. This may come in the form of (communal) recitation or simply always remembering god in one’s heart. The word dhikr is commonly translated as "remembrance" or "invocation"."
(Note that I even avoided words like 'Islam' or 'muslim', as I think not any religion can claim copyrights on the essence of Dhikr practice. As Jalal ud'din Rumi wrote: "Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu, Buddhist or Zen. Not any religion or cultural system.")
=== Origins ===
The title of this paragraph suggests a historical view. That is problematic: from the point of view of a historian I can see no justification for the claims in the text; in fact, I think it highly improbable that the practice of Dhikr was only established as a consequence of Qur'an texts. But why quibble about it; this is a theological article and I would propose to leave the 'origins' to historians and anthropologists and simply change the heading in: "The basis of Dhikr in Islamic tradition."
=== Methods ===
The article claims "The majority of Sunni Muslims deem Dhikr to be a private and silent worship and this is the widely accepted form of Dhikr." I think this is a factual claim which needs te be backed up with research findings or deleted. In addition, I think the wording is kind-of agressive-defensive. (I already proposed to strike the word 'Sunni' throughout.)
The rest of the paragraph is, i.m.h.o., dogmatic, prescriptive instead of descriptive, and insulting for minorities to boot. I think a Wikipedia article should not talk about differring ways to remember god in terms of 'sects' and 'heretics'. There are more respectful words, like 'small groups' and 'different traditions'. The word Bid'ah (or innovation) is, i.m.o., totally out of place as some, if not most, of these traditions trace their origin back to a millennium or more, or so they claim, and Wikipedia is not the place to tell them they are wrong, unless backed up by evidence. In my view, a sentence like "First, it is a private, individual and silent practice" should not appear in a Wikipedia article. For millions, Dhikr practice is not 'private, individual, silent' but communal, loud and even physical. 
=== Essence ===
My main quibble with this article is, however, that it concentrates on 'form' (without even quoting sources) and says little if anything about the intent, about the essence of Dhikr practice.
Yet, it is easy to find quotable texts about it on the internet:
"The first step to enter zikr is to ask for forgiveness for ourselves and forgive all those against whom we might hold any grudge. This is like wiping the rust off our hearts by letting go of the ego and letting God in. We wipe the dust of material life from our hearts and offer ourselves to the only True Being."
(http://nazr-e-kaaba.com.amadeus.sui-inter.net/zikr.php)
"True Zikr makes you forget everything but the Beloved" (Hazrat Abu Sa‘id ibn Abi’l-Khayr, Persia, d. 1049 CE)
On the website http://nsso.info/articles/157-what-is-zikr I see an explanation of Dhikr which at the same time is much more broad and open, and goes deeper into the essential meaning. The wikipedia article could profit from extensively quoting these texts, I think.
=== Allah or god? ===
The article uses 'allah' as well as 'god'. I've often wondered about this: why do muslims so often prefer 'allah' in an english text? Be that as it may, I think the article should be consistent (except for literal quotations, of course) and I see no reason to use 'allah' in an English text. It only serves to support ideas about 'our god' and 'their god'.
Mabel2 (talk) 20:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias and needless exclusion 

message: The article uses 'allah' as well as 'god'. I've often wondered about this: why do muslims so often prefer 'allah' in an english text? Be that as it may, I think the article should be consistent (except for literal quotations, of course) and I see no reason to use 'allah' in an English text. It only serves to support ideas about 'our god' and 'their god'.
Mabel2 (talk) 20:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allah or god? 

message: The Chechen ecstatic/trance dancing dhikr (as seen in these fascinating videos) is missing from and should be discussed in the Sufic section. — Scott • talk 20:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chechen Sufi dhikr needs coverage 

message: Dhikr is a devotional act that praises Allah and emphasizes His glory by reciting one of His good qualities or names, or the name of His Prophet. Although it is not one of the five pillars, devout Muslims try to dhikr as much as possible, due to the rewards the Qur’an promises for those who perform dhikr. As the prophet Muhammed expressed, “Whoever recites the tasbih, (“I extol the holiness of God”) and the tahmid (“God be praised’) a hundred times, morning and evening, will have all his sins forgiven.” As a traditional form of devotion, repeating these prayers has been, and continues to be, important in Muslim cultures. The devout Muslims observed in this study, for example, repeated 4-5 thousand prayers a day. Zekenyan (talk) 17:51, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Google Searches dont use plural  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: This term in English is always pronounced and spelled as Zikr. Dhikr is not popular as even in Arabic it's pronounced as Zikr. There is no sense of Naming it as Zikr. I request for change. Zikrullah (talk) 05:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Should be changed to Zikr 

message: Urdu 175.107.236.37 (talk) 00:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dhikr 

message: — Assignment last updated by Lunarmoon13 (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Honors World Religions

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians, 
I have made some additions to the article and would appreciate it if you could take a look. 
I have added references for the Hadiths and the Quranic verses that appear in the sections, "Recitation of Quran As Dhikr" and "Hadith mentioning virtues (which I have renamed to: "Quranic Ayat and Hadiths Relating to The Importance of Dhikr")." I also added a heading for the "Tasbih of Fatimah," and added it as a subtopic under "Quranic Ayat and Hadiths Relating to The Importance of Dhikr." 
I have also expanded more on the the Sufi practice of Dhikr with acceptable academic sources serving as references.
I have also added citations to areas where there were needed. 
Once again, I would appreciate it if you could take a look at my edits and additions. Its hard to make a username on this (talk) 00:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Changes