Talk:Prussian Blue (duo)/Archive 4

message: Changed the previous change back.  See the second section of Racialism, [] where racialism is defined as a social/political movement.  This better describes the ideology PB espouses.  Use of the term racist is more an attempt to bring negativity to the article.  (Perhaps even a violation of the NPOV regs?)Avsn 01:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So I think it's quite clear that they are racist, and the negativity of their views is quite independent of what editors "bring to the article". Still, "self-proclaimed racist" should not be used unless it can be documented that they have self-applied the word "racist". The same holds for "self-proclaimed racialist", really; unless someone has a source in which they've self-applied that label, it should go, too. Someone else please check this out; I really don't feel like wading through that stuff.... --Trovatore 01:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be racist. Their mother, April, admitted to being racist. --Gramaic | Talk 02:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, not technically the same thing. April Gaede is not (technically) Prussian Blue. I think we have to be very careful in this sort of situation. I see you didn't put "self-proclaimed" back, so it's probably OK; it's hard to imagine a libel judge finding that they're not racist, or that anyone acted recklessly by saying they are. Still makes me a little uneasy though. --Trovatore 03:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Truth is not bound by "NPOV". If something is true, it is not POV, but simply is. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: One question: Are they racist? I believe you yourself said, "They're racist." If they're racist we need not use any other word to describe them. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I explained above, I disagree with your choice of words and I think your anger is showing in your edit, which is unencyclopedic. However, editing disagreements take on sundry levels of priority and severity or whatever and trust me, this one's low on both :) Wyss 03:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that I nominated this page for deletion nigh on 5 months ago, believe me when I say I don't give a damn about this article either. :) However, I disagree with your opinion that powderpuffing the diction somehow makes the article NPOV. If someone is racist, they are. To say that someone who is racist, is not racist, is not NPOV, it's lying. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Back to my question: Are they racist? Yes or no. -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll take that as a yes. So why exactly must we use "racialist" to describe 2 people who are racist? To appease white supremacists/nationalists/whatever you want to call them? -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 03:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No need to use either. White nationalist is NPoV and spot on. So far as appeasing goes they know they're racists and they're proud of it but some of them are also smart enough to recognize that the word racist is incendiary and exploit that by claiming victimhood. It's a trap. Same thing happens when you call a troll a troll. Wyss 03:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So a troll should not be called a troll on Wikipedia? Maybe replace "troll" with "nice people who argue online"? Why should we reduce the level of factual accuracy to appease whoever doesn't like Wikipedia? If some people say Wikipedia is biased because we call racist people racist, let them say it. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is factually accurate. An encyclopedia does not powderpuff. Perhaps we should self-censor everything related to the CCP to appease and beg them not to block Wikipedia? -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai! 04:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The terms powderpuff and appease are classic symptoms of anger and PoV in any discussion of Nazism. Anger and PoV are reasonable, normal and sane responses here, however they are not encyclopedic. Wyss 04:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist/Racialist 

message: I made a minor edit naming their second album in a paragraph that mentioned the first album by name, and mentioned the second album but (weirdly) didn't name it. Freddie deBoer 01:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added Name of second album 

message: Someone removed "white" from the description of "Eurofest", making it a "nationalist" festival rather than "white nationalist". I changed it back, with a rather ill-thought-out edit summary, but the point stands. These two girls have gone from being "racists" to "racialists" to "white nationalists" - surely it's going to far to just call them "nationalists"? As far as I can see, Eurofest was set up by the National Alliance, a "white nationalist" organisation. Alex Salmond is a white nationalist. These two, and the organisation behind them, are White supremacists. Camillus (talk) 01:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See below. Wyss 02:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: White nationalist -> nationalist

message: There are now four cited articles describing the twins as racist and/or white supremacist, so I have added the language that they have been "described as" such.  This conforms to wikipedia policy in that it is reliably sourced and is not original research.  If you want more sources, just spend five minutes Googling and I'm sure you'll find even more than I did.  If using the term "racist" bothers you, reply here, don't blank.  -Kasreyn 23:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.  :)  -Kasreyn 02:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added citations 

message: The second paragraph is poorly written and makes it hard to tell that Wikipedia is not reporting the holocaust deniers' claims as fact.  The word "alleged" is in there, but it gets lost in the verbiage.  I suggest:
*The name Prussian Blue is a reference to holocaust deniers, who claim that gas chambers were not used in the holocaust because the levels of Prussian Blue found in the walls of the gas chambers were allegedly not consistent with the use of Zyklon-B.    The name is also intended as a reference to the girls' German heritage and their eye color.
How would this do?  -Kasreyn 12:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second Paragraph claims uncited 

message: Removed some material that didn't contribute to the discussion of the article.  Avsn 00:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of some talk page material 

message: Madbomber, I'm not sure about that mp3 you added under Ideology with the quote "proud of their heritage".  Whoever that announcer was, she's a gem.  Of course, it's not very hard to outmaneuver an 11-year-old in an argument.  There's not much point in it, though, because the girl clearly had not come up with any of the things she was parroting.  It was hilarious when she started pointing out how obvious it was that the girl was being prompted by her parent.
However, I noticed that the girl calling in identified herself as "Ellie Mae", 11 years old, and the announcer was definitely (this is based on her voice) a mature woman (late 20's or older) who extolled the virtues of multiculturalism.  Clearly, neither of these people were one of the Gaede twins.  The mp3 was very interesting, but I don't see how it's relevant to this article.  I think it should be removed.  Kasreyn 21:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This appears to be the host in the segment:  Inga Barks Kasreyn 21:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Madbomber, I need a reply from you.  I'm removing the link for now, and replacing it with a citation needed tag rather than removing the claim.  Please get back to me with a new source, thanks!  Kasreyn 13:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a week is enough time.  I'm removing the claim since it is unsourced.  Kasreyn 09:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heritage mp3 

message: I read the passage "The debut single for their second album The Stranger is adapted from a poem by Rudyard Kipling who ostensibly supported the concept of white supremacy in many of his writings, most notably in The White Man's Burden."
While I am pretty sure Kipling(and many others at the time) believed white society to stand above that of other races, The White Man's Burden is not celebratory of this aspect at all, so this connection is a bit hazy. I mean, the poem is a critique and/or warning to the USA about nation building in South East Asia, in that they might be neither successful nor celebrated for their efforts there at the time. It is hardly similar to any kind of National Vanguard rhetoric. I chose to "milden" the passage for this very reason. Feel free to revert, though I think it deserves to be less condescending. /Gustav --193.11.220.45 16:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh.  I have a lot of respect for Kipling as a poet - just like I enjoy the music of Wagner - but some of his poems I can hardly bear to read.  TWMB is among them.  I disagree with those who want to paint Kipling as some sort of rabid Nazi hatemonger, but white supremacy is overall not a bad description for his beliefs.  Kasreyn 17:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Kipling 

message: What is the difference between "white nationalist" and "white supremacist" anyway? The former is a word designed by white racists to obfuscate the real ideology behind supremacism while the later is a word used to let common people easily understand the root problem. Is anyone ashamed to admit this? These girls wear "happy hitler" t-shirts, sing songs about a  bloody holy war against non-whites and deny the holocaust. Worst of all, they are part of National Vangaurd's propaganda machine. Their visuals are a sickening portrayal of the assertaion that white is equal to good and non-white is equal to bad. These are hallmarks of white supremacism. It appears some moderators and editors are hell bent on suppressing the reality of supremacism by using words that are supposedly nicer (like "nationalist"). It would be in the best interest of everyone if the truth is not obfuscated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.233.163 (talk • contribs) 
:The point is that at Wikipedia we do not have a privileged frame of reference.  Is "white nationalist" a BS term made up to give white supremacy a new name?  In your opinion, yes.  In my opinion, yes.  But our opinions don't count.  To others, there is a meaningful difference between the two.  Wikipedia has to represent all viewpoints.  We already have quite a few sources calling them racist and white nationalist.  (And trust me, no matter what the bigots think, calling it "white nationalism" isn't helping their cause any.  Everyone knows what it really means.)  However, we have a dearth of sources willing to go so far as to call them "white supremacist", and they call themselves "white nationalist".  That's why we use the term.  An encyclopedia cannot include information that isn't reliably sourced, and at the moment, the claim of white supremacism is not.  Best wishes, Kasreyn 02:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for clearing that up, I was going to comment about that too. SZadeh 03:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supression of terminology - "white supremacist"  

message: Where do they live now? The KFSN-TV article about the custody battle references "[April's] new home in Montana," and in a later paragraph said "[The father] could have limited visits with the girls in Montana." But recent edits to this page by an obvious white nationalist claims they moved to "Bellingham Washington, the birthplace of their paternal grandmother, who has distanced herself from her son." Which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.110.127 (talk • contribs) `
:: I can't provide any print or web citations, but their Mother is definitely living in or near the town of Kalispell, MT (she works as a dishwasher in Kalispell). I'd would assume that means the kids are there as well. Brent Shultz 21:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington or Montana? 

message: I have semi-protected the page due to constant vandalism. Academic Challenger 06:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Semi-protected

message: The old initial image with smiling hitler has a negative conotation, and was probably put there create prejudice against the band. All wikipedia articles must be neutral, and thus we should use neutral images of bands as their main image. If not, then we should put negative images of all bands on wikipedia. Everyone has a negative image taken from them already, but this is no reason to use it to qualify that person. --Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho 18:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The girls themselves choose to wear these t-shirts, and are quite open about their admiration of Hitler. The picture gives a more accurate view of the girls music and politics, rather than the sanitised image proposed. From his user page, the above editor is quite open about his admiration of the girls - so allegations of bias are perhaps to be taken with a pinch of salt. Camillus (talk) 19:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Hardly.  They clearly are not reluctant to be in the spotlight, nor does the 'smiley hitler' photo strike me as being a 'candid' or paparazzi shot.  In fact, it appears to be a cheap publicity shot of some sort, likely designed to promote their 'band' (and, by their choice of clothing, their social views as well).  Comparing the use of this photo on wikipedia to the printing/posting of  pictures of crime victims by news organizations, which is what you are doing by claiming they "should not be pictured at all", is absurd.  Have you also requested that their record label stop printing their likenesses on the duo's album releases?  -Grammaticus Repairo 17:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Strongly agree.  I submit that whether the twins are choosing their own course or being manipulated is irrelevant to the subject of the image.  Kasreyn 00:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial image 

message: Apparently a fake news article was posted about them around the net - see http://officialprussianblue.net/showthread.php?p=23214 - be prepared for additions about this fake event from editors believing it to be a genuine report. exolon 22:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fake news article 

message: Reading most articles here, one gets the impression that it was a piece of Wikipedia Dogma that every article have a "controversey" section.  And yet, when the subject of 13 year old racist pop singers is brought under discussion...perish the thought. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 163.1.170.198 (talk • contribs) .
:Well... but I wouldn't say it is a "positive" article about this scary family.  I think it is a good article.  When I first saw it, especially that unbelievable photo with the t-shirts, well I guess "unbelievable" is the right word because I was sure this was a big hoax.  Only after Googling a bit did I gradually come to the sickening conclusion that this probably is not a hoax.  As for "controversy," it is there in many places in the article, so a "Controversy" section would be the whole article.  6SJ7 19:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, we try not to have Criticism sections.  The criticism should be interspersed throughout the entire article.  This is a good example of an article written from a neutral point of view. 141.155.59.32 22:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stunning 

message: Here's the link to the photo of April Gaede that Phiwum keeps removing: . Szygny 21:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo

message: In the Prussian Blue forum, underneath the thread "Do Lynx and Lamb have middle names?", Lynx has already stated what her middle name is and what her sister's is. Lynx's middle name is Vaughan, after singer Stevie Ray Vaughan and Lamb's is Lennon after John Lennon.
April Gaede also gave her reasons for giving her daughters the names:
BlondeVikingPrincess
–ArmadniGeneral (talk • contribs) 03:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The middle names of Lynx and Lamb