Talk:Bride kidnapping

message: Hello all --
The bride kidnapping in United States cites two cases in particular: Elizabeth Smart and Jaycee Lee Dugard.  Although the Smart case may arguably be a bride kidnapping case, because there was a false marriage ceremony performed, there was no such pretense for Dugard. She was, simply and tragically, a victim of sexual servitude.  Thus, these are surely kidnappings, but may not be bride kidnappings.  Further, I question the relevance to this article in general, because these cases result from individual perversions, rather than established cultural traditions. The remainder of the article looks at cultural influences in bride kidnapping traditions.
Regarding the marriage traditions in the break-off Mormon communities, again the fit with the article isn't quite right, although they bear similarities. These are *forced* marriages, but not really bride kidnappings.
I recommend deleting the entire section, unless we wish to explore bride kidnapping traditions within the United States (see, e.g., Hmong). Perhaps we could include the information as a see also at the end of the page?  Thanks.
The section:
United States
Several reports of bride kidnapping for religious reasons have surfaced recently. Most known are the cases of Elizabeth Smart in Utah and Jaycee Lee Dugard in California. Both alleged perpetrators are currently awaiting trial for kidnapping and sexual assault. Other cases exists within some fundamentalist or break off groups from Mormonism around the Utah-Arizona border; however, accurate information is difficult to obtain from these closed communities. Most of these cases are usually referred to as forced marriages, although they are similar to other bride kidnappings around the world.[89]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibsensgirl (talk • contribs) 17:01, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, yes, I can see your reasoning on this. The article does, and should, focus on the cultural phenomenon. I would not object to an excision of the section above, leaving it here on the talkpage for any future editor. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:39, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bride Kidnapping in United States 

message: Hello --
I'm writing because I noticed that the Georgia section was entirely blanked without the editor offering a justification for the deletion. This is the section that was deleted:
Georgia
In Georgia, bride kidnapping occurs throughout the country, but primarily in ethnic minority communities, such as Samtskhe-Javakheti.[48] Although the extent of the problem is not known, non-governmental activists estimate that hundreds of women are kidnapped and forced to marry each year.[49] In a typical Georgian model of bride kidnapping, the abductor, often accompanied by friends, accosts the intended bride, and coerces her through deception or force to enter a car. Once in the car, the victim may be taken to a remote area or the captor's home.[50] These kidnappings sometimes include rape, and may result in strong stigma to the female victim, who is assumed to have engaged in sexual relations with her captor.[51] Women who have been victims of bride kidnapping are often regarded with shame; the victim's relatives may view it as a disgrace if the woman returns home after a kidnapping.[52] In other cases, the kidnapping is a consensual elopment.[53] Human Rights Watch reports that prosecutors often refuse to bring charges against the kidnappers, urging the kidnap victim to reconcile with her aggressor.[54] Enforcing the appropriate laws in this regard may also be a problem because the kidnapping cases often go unreported as a result of intimidation of victims and their families.[55]
The section was supported by footnotes, and has recently been reconfirmed in news reports:
European Integration Means Women's Rights
28 November 2011
By Paul Rimple
A friend recently confided that she was pregnant and her partner did not want the child. She faced a choice between abortion and the severe wrath of her family, who she was convinced would disown her after a fierce beating. Single motherhood was not an option.
People in Tbilisi are often in denial that such “backward” attitudes are prevalent in Georgia. “Maybe in the villages,” they say, but women in the capital still find themselves dominated by traditional gender roles in which they are expected to be virgins when they marry and complacent homemakers thereafter. Hymenoplasty is a solution, but it does little to address the problem.
In Pankisi, honor killings, although rare, still occur, and in the Marneuli district, which is mostly populated by Azeris, child brides are either given away by their parents or kidnapped by their “fiances.” While bride-napping is in many cases a method of consensual elopement, hundreds of women are taken against their will each year across the country — and not just in the regions. In 2007, 304 cases of “illegal deprivation of liberty, with the aim of marriage” were reported to the police in Georgia. More than half were from Tbilisi and in most cases, the perpetrators received a fine or suspended sentence.
The Anti-Violence Network of Georgia claims that “every third woman is the victim of violence in Georgia.” In a Caucasus Women’s Research and Consulting Network study, 90 percent of women stated that “women should be more modest and try not to provoke violence,” while 60 percent of women stated that whatever happens should stay within the family, regardless of the situation.
Clearly, the country needs to pursue an aggressive education campaign so that society realizes that it’s not acceptable to allow women to be married against their will or beaten. Georgia has signed a number of international human rights treaties that require the state to prevent and investigate violence against women, and it has established laws on domestic violence. Yet the government still lacks a comprehensive approach to policies and programs aimed at achieving women’s equality with men, particularly those that address both direct and indirect discrimination against women.
Being committed to European integration means being committed to meeting the obligations of the treaties it signs and, at the very least, creating conditions where women no longer believe it’s their fault they are abused and the men who abuse them are punished to the full extent of the law.
Read more: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/european-integration-means-womens-rights/448697.html#ixzz1gFytveiJ
The Moscow Times
Can anyone tell me the protocol in a case such as this -- where another editor entirely deletes a section without offering justification? The editor was contributing from the following address: 130.63.41.103.  Thank you!
I hope you all are well Ibsensgirl (talk) 19:54, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your tolerance is to be commended! Really, there is no excuse for blanking sourced statements, let alone whole sections, unless the person attempting such offers an explanation (e.g. the edit summary) and then sticks around to discuss the matter here. I'll revert it for you. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Georgia Section 

message: I've tagged this statement: The tradition's normalization of kidnapping puts young women at higher risk of becoming victims of human trafficking. as WP:SYNTH as it appears to be an over-statement of what the sources actually say. Neither claim that there is a 'normalization of kidnapping', or as far as I can see, links it directly to an increased risk of trafficking; in fact it appears to be presented as exceptional. RashersTierney (talk) 10:20, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Synth at [[Bride kidnapping#Roma (Gypsy) communities|the Roma section]]?

message: The article very precisely lists societes which may perform bride kidnapping today, but says almost nothing about its occurrence in historic societies. I'm guessing that it used to be much more common. At least, some researchers believe the Indo-European peoples to have performed bribe kidnapping originally. I don't know enough to expand the article, but for those who do I think it would be good to write something about what we know about bribe kidnapping from historic sources.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.206.44.215 (talk) 02:13, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I should read more closely. This has happened to me before today... I see there is a section about historic occurrence. It could be expaneded, but all right, I'm sorry.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.206.44.215 (talk) 02:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historic occurrence 

message: Suhungmung (talk) 04:04, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bride Kidnapping In North East India 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: We write:
I removed everything after the comma per WP:UNDUE, but I was reverted by  here .
Here's a bit of what the neutrality policy says about due and undue weight, and how giving minority or unqualified views undue weight can have a deleterious impact on neutrality:
With this in mind, it is already very problematic to juxtapose commentary by one person, William Muir, next to, and with the same weight as, the opinion of "[m]ost Islamic scholars". I am having difficulty understanding how this is not flatly incompatible with the neutrality policy, especially the sections I quoted above having to do with undue weight.
But the problem is worse than that, because Muir's background makes him and his opinions about Islamic law very unsuitable and inappropriate to present as a 'counter-point' to the view of mainstream Muslim scholars. Taking a look at our article on him, there are some relevant interesting facts:
So here's what I'm drawing from all this. Muir was respected and influential as a scholar of Islam and as a historian, and some of his work is still relevant and influential today. But he was also a colonialist and Euro-Christian supremacist who viewed Islam (along with, I suppose most or all of the world's non-Christian religions) as inspired by and a source of radical, Satanic evil. 
It comes as no surprise, then, that Muir's opinions on the topic of bride kidnapping in Islam contradict the mainstream view, and that his differences of opinion tend to cast Islam in a clearly negative light. 
Certainly, these judgments of his are relevant to the history of Islamic scholarship in general. Maybe some investigation should be made into whether his views should be introduced into articles like Islamic studies and so on. But here, on the topic of bride kidnapping, where we have only one short sentence describing the views of 'most Islamic scholars', it is not appropriate to give such undue weight to the tiny minority analysis from a highly eurocentric 19th century colonialist historian. --causa sui (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  William Muir's interpretation of Islamic law, and undue weight 

message: Hello all. The section here for Pakistan is poorly sourced and grammatically incorrect.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:C01:CA8B:FD50:C9A0:2D93:5E96 (talk) 02:22, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pakistan Section 

message: * Ottoman Law on bride kidnapping.  https://acikbilim.yok.gov.tr/bitstream/handle/20.500.12812/326688/yokAcikBilim_10077318.pdf?sequence=-1&isAllowed=y
 Bookku    (talk) 12:05, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs