Talk:Robert Nairac

message: This article is beyond a joke, even if we are to accept Eamon Collins account of Nairac's ending in the meat machine (which is the widespread belief around the borderlands anyway). For a guy who disappeared without trace, the extent of knowledge held by one Wikipedia editor about all the treatment he allegedly received is quite impressive. Our omnipresent editor knows, for instance, that Nairac 'was subjected to a succession of exceptionally savage assaults in an attempt to extract information which would have put other lives and future operations at serious risk'. That the mystery of this man is solved here on Wikipedia after 29 years is a 
truly astounding feat, and I hereby nominate our editor for Wikipedian of the Year award. I'm particularly moved by the strength and courage which Nairac showed in the face of adversity, and we are told that 'These efforts to break Captain Nairac's will failed entirely. Weakened as he was in strength-though not in spirit-by the brutality'- ah yes, how very British of him (Who's writing this: Nick Griffith?) but our omniscient Wikipedia editor continues indicating to us that he knows how many people were in this matter-of-fact room, 'he yet made repeated and spirited (aha ye Gods! that British spirit again!) attempts to escape, but on each occasion was eventually overpowered by the weight of the numbers against him.'
All I want to ask now is this: will the writer of this piece kindly present himself to the local crown forces and confess to what is clearly on his conscience? Is mise, El Gringo 06:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you actually bothered to read the article before making snide remarks about it, you would see that the quote is from Nairac's George Cross citation, which is actually available online. So hardly original research "by one Wikipedia editor", is it? Use common sense before making POV comments like this. Oh, and I assume you mean Nick Griffin not Nick Griffith? I wasn't actually aware that the BNP had anything to do with the George Cross! -- Necrothesp 15:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Awesome, thanks Tony G.  Will check it out.  Fluffy999 00:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comical

message: I've changed the name to McErlaine based on the source I added, Toby Harnden's Bandit Country.  However there is an online source that states the name used was McAlevey. Bandit Country was published before the Sunday Mirror article, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the Sunday Mirror journalist doesn't have the knowledge or contacts that Harnden does, and a mistake was probably made by the Mirror. Other opinions welcome. One Night In Hackney303 18:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Danny McAlevey/McErlaine

message: Tag added as we have allegations that Nairac knew killers etc. Absolute BS. Smear job Weggie 14:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is it a smear job to say Nairac knew who his killers were ? the full details of the event were made known, and appeared in the press,  when the case went to court. Did the the court not find that the deed had been committed by individuals who were members of the Provisional IRA? Kbservices 18:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Weggie is talking about this section, to be fair. I don't consider just adding a tag and saying the article is POV is a constructive thing to do though, please at least say what aspects of the article would need changing/improving for it to be NPOV. Thanks. One Night In Hackney303 18:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Well since you asked 'Robin Jackson' - Clearly a smear. I can't just change articles nowadays as various interest groups will descend and revert so lets discuss shall we Weggie 18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Can´t see in the article any item that says Nairac "knew killers " and no item that says killer was, or killers included,  "Robin Jackson"...Please direct to the relevant item.. Thanks Kbservices 19:04, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't tar everyone with the same brush Weggie, I've always tried to be fair in my dealings with you. What changes do you think need to be made to the article then please? One Night In Hackney303 19:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Colour me blind, but I can't see anything in the two cited sources (and the Wallace article) that definively links Jackson and Nairac, there's definitely no cite for "Nairac was consistently linked with Robin Jackson". Based on experience of similar situations the conclusion I'm drawing is that Jackson was possibly a security forces informer of some kind, but there's not a single piece of evidence currently cited that Nairac was his handler or involved with him in any way. One Night In Hackney303 19:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The implication also is that Barron endorses the various claims - does he really? Also, the TV programme is slated Weggie 19:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: Nairac was certainly a Roman Catholic, but "devout"? Is there any proof of this loosely (if frequently) used adjective? Millbanks 07:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Roman Catholic

message: Ref. Edit 11.12.07
Please do not make any add any additional material to the paragraphs I have added as these are taken directly from the source material, unless you have access to the book? This is a controvertial topic so we need this to be 100% free from questions of verifiability Kernel Saunters (talk) 14:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't kinda the way wikipedia works, see WP:Verifiability. However the edit in question is in fact correct as per the book I've used so it's not something I would remove. I'll be making some more edits so it would be much appreciated if you could give this a review once complete. Kernel Saunters (talk) 15:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Reviewed changes, no edits in mind
Kbservices (talk) 13:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request on my personal Talk page to not adjust article

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:GeorgeCrossObv.jpg

message: The article doesn't say.jeanne (talk) 13:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Having checked the ODNB article on him  she was called Barbara Dykes, so I'd imagine she was British, but that's not exactly conclusive either.  David Underdown (talk) 15:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Was Nairac's mother British or a native of Mauritius?

message: I would have to agree on the dubiousness of this. Firstly the source varies each time it tells the story, using the term reputed on one occasion, attributing it to someone on another, and stating it as fact on another occasion. Secondly there is no record, other than this source or one Irish newspaper which seemingly repeeats this possibly anecdotal story from the book, of Meehan having ever been a boxer. 2 lines of K303 13:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can contributor Kernel Saunters please post the text of the book here? It seems as if it refers to Nairac's keeping a wild bird but not necessarily the boxing one. And, from an historical perspective, when did this bout take place? Nairac was at Oxford from 67-71, and as Meehan was a top IRA man from the late 60s, it can't have been any later than 1968. Let's ee waht the text says and then it may be appropriate to amend the text to say that one author states/claims that he boxed with Meehan, etc. I beleive it's nonsense but it#'s not up to me. Billsmith60 (talk) 14:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Meehan boxing info

message: The lead as it currently stands does not adequately summarise Nairac's life.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In what way? What do you think is missing? Nick Cooper (talk) 12:45, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Foe example all the collusion allegations which is what makes Nairac notable. There were plenty of British Army killed by the IRA, but it's the persistant claims that he was linked with Robin Jackson and the Glenanne gang that Nairac is mainly known for. This all needs to be in the lead.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:57, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added details to the lead. If the wording sounds too POV it can be changed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim that the only reason Nairac is notable is because of the various allegations and smears is laughable. Nairac has received the George Cross and his life is well documented with a biography that does not focus on the allegations but does discuss them. Much of the coverage centres on the cntinuing grave hunt and the on-going murder investigations for his PIRA killers. The section on Barron doesn't even mention that Green's allegations are rejected and that no 'hard evidence' can be found that Nairac engaged in any sort of collusion whatever The reader should be allowed to come to their own conclusions about the allegations but this should not be in the lead. Kernel Saunters (talk) 16:37, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: John Weir maintains that Nairac handled both Robin Jackson and Robert McConnell, both of whom were the alleged gunmen in the Green killing. Martin Dillon rejects the allegation that Nairac was involved in the Green and Miami Showband killings, however, this is based on the earlier presumption that a Star pistol was used in both attacks. The Barron and Cassel Reports conclude it was instead a 9mm Luger pistol. Miami Showband survivor Travers has testified that a man with an English accent was present at the scene, but he is not positive it was Nairac. Nairac has become a larger-than-life character, with nearly every deed in the Armagh area being laid at his feet. There was, however, a group known as the Glenanne gang who were likely controlled by RUC Special Branch and possibly the Det. Henry Barron conccluded in his report that it was likely the bombs which exploded in Dublin and Monaghan were assembled and stored at the Glenanne farm. Someone was handling Billy Hanna, Robin Jackson, Harris Boyle, McConnell, etc. It might not have been Nairac, yet Weir in his affadavit swore that it was he. Of course, Nairac took his secrets with him when he was killed at Ravensdale Woods, and we may never unravel the truth of that squalid episode in Irish/British history.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:03, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is interesting that the above rebuttals of the accusations against Nairac do not appear in the article. Perhaps you'd like to add them?? Also I'm not sure the sworn statement of convicted loyalist murderer like Weir is one I'd like to weave a theory around as for handlers that also remains unprovenKernel Saunters (talk) 17:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Justice Barron accepted Weir's statement, although he admittedly did not find hard evidence linking Nairac to the Green killing. The Report says that it's possible Nairac had Green under surveillance. I have no agenda here in nailing Nairac as the culprit. I rarely edit the Nairac article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: After another perusal of John Weir's affadavit, it would appear the gunmen in the Green killing were Robin Jackson and Robert McConnell, and possibly Harris Boyle. When I lived in Ireland, the name Nairac was always associated with dastardly deeds, spying, infiltration in both Republican and Loyalist camps, but we must be prudent and not rush to blame him for every sectarian attack committed by the Glenanne gang. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead needs to be expanded

message: The article fails to use the term "Glenanne gang", the name given to the UDR, RUC, UVF members he was allegedy in collusion with.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Glenanne gang

message: This cat should be removed as he was born in Mauritius to English parents which would make him a Mauritian of English/British ancestry, not the other way around.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's questionable whether either category would be appropriate. Mauritius was a British colony when Nairac was born, and his parents appear to have both been English. He may have been eligible for Mauritian citzenship after independence in 1968, but is there any evidence that he either sought or desired it. Nick Cooper (talk) 17:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think either should be included. Should I remove it?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably best. Nick Cooper (talk) 18:04, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: British person of Mauritian ancestry?

message: Can we use a non-free image for this article? --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Image?

message: I'm surprised the article does not mention his assocation with Captain Julian Anthony "Tony" Ball. Nairac and Ball led Four Field Survey Troop according to Captain Fred Holroyd which is cited in the Barron Report.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: His work in the unit is cited using a secondary source, we have no need to rely on analysis of primary sources such as the Barron Report. In addition Holroyd is also not a reliable source as per Barron. Kernel Saunters (talk) 11:08, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Holroyd's allegations against Nairac were discounted after Garda investigations had discovered the polaroid photo of John Francis Green which Holyroyd alleged had been shown to him by Nairac was in fact taken by  Garda officer Stratford the morning after the Green killing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:39, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Tony Ball

message: As far as I can see having access to all the given sources there is no evidence of him having French ancestry. Having a French sounding name is evidence of nothing and we are trying to keep articles free of WP:OR Kernel Saunters (talk) 11:46, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It was there when I arrived at Wikipedia three years ago. Admittedly the name sounds like it originates in Gascony, but a reliable source needs to state he was of French ancestry.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: French

message: The article says he left Northern Ireland for a period in mid-summer 1975. Kernel Saunters, would you happen to have a source that gives the dates for his absence from Ireland? I'm trying to establish whether he was actually present in Northern Ireland when the Miami Showband attack occurred. Stephen Travers is adament that he oversaw the operation; however, Dillon points out that there is no evidence to back up Travers' claim, additionally one of Dillon's sources says Nairac had not been present at Buskhill on 31 July 1975.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As well as Dillon, John Parker came to the conclusion Nairac wasn't involved. Dillion writes, 'it is to say the least highly dubious, if not absurd to conclude from such superficial factors that Nairac was present...' Dillion continues as you say to confirm that he had a senior loyalist who would know confirm this to him. Secret Hero states he left the Province in the summer after his tour finished and had a period of RnR before returning to regimental duties in London. No dates sadly. He was recalled after the Kingsmill Massacre when the SAS were sent in, he was a HQ liason officer required to increase the intelligence capabilities to keep a continuity of intelligence personnel as regiments at Bessbrook rotated and so someone would have to start from scratch, but Nairac was there to provide continuity and to smooth the entrance of the SAS into the intelligence structure Kernel Saunters (talk) 20:46, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Incidentally the Dillon information should be in the Miami Showband article as it is unbalanced without it Kernel Saunters (talk) 20:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have since added the Dillon info as a blockquote to the article. Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:37, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Left Northern Ireland in 1975 

message: The article says Nairac was promoted to captain in September 1975. What was his rank in July 1975? Was he indeed an officer at the time of the Miami Showband massacre? It's strange that Travers was shown just a photo of Nairac after the attack. It could have been done to trap Travers into saying he was the man at the attack when police knew he was out of Ireland at the time. That would make his claim that a British Army officer having been present fall apart. Another thing, we must remember that the IRA have a very good propaganda machine. It's likely that all of this "Nairac having done this and that" is created to justify their brutal killing of him. Even the Pat Finucane Centre says one has to be careful assigning killings to Nairac simply because of his reputation.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:34, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Lieutenant see London Gazette below:
* Second Lieutenant
* Lieutenant
* Captain (Sept 1975
14:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. So he was an officer then. Of course that proves nothing. As Dillon says linking a British Army officer with a "clipped English accent" to Robert Nairac is absurd, and had a case been brought against Nairac it would have been laughed out of court. I'm saying this with all due respect to the two Miami Showband survivors, yet the evidence just isn't there. I think that's why Travers went to meet the UVF man known as "The Craftsman" in the hopes he would say Nairac had been involved just to add this to his book. There were numerous officers in the North at the time with educated English accents!! I personally recall once at a party in Belfast having met several English people who spoke with perfect Oxford accents!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:   Nairac's rank at the time of Miami Showband attack 

message: The article does not say whether or not Nairac was impersonating a real OIRA member (Danny McErlaine) or just gave that as his fictional name but by coincidence there happened to have been an actual IRA member by that name. If Nairac was impersonating McErlaine, the article needs to use the word impersonate.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The current wording implies that his kidnappers believed he was McErlaine, and that he was kidnapped because the real McErlaine had stolen arms from the IRA. The rest of the article implies that he simply wasn't very good at blending in. It doesn't explicitly say why he was kidnapped. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 14:06, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The real Danny McErlaine 

message: I'm not satisfied that the lead provides an adequate summary of the key points in the article. It really needs expansion.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: I am working to establish some hard facts about the career of the late Captain Robert Nairac GC, Grenadier Guards. Captain Nairac, who was working undercover, was abducted, tortured and murdered by the Provisional IRA in May 1977.  His body has never been found and the file on his murder has never been closed.
 
Nairac features in many books, notably The Dirty War by Martin Dillon and Bandit Country: the IRA and South Armagh by Toby Harnden.  He is also treated with some attention in the writings of Fred Holroyd and Colin Wallace; neither of whom is a wholly reliable source. In addition, many Press articles have treated, and continue to treat, Nairac and his murder. 
Faced with such a plethora of material; some of it misleading, much of it hard to verify, it is hard to establish even a timeline. Much published information is open to doubt. To give a few examples: 
An Irish Connection. It is well-known that Nairac developed an early affinity for Ireland and often spent academic holidays there with his friends, the sons of Lord Killanin. However there are   persistent rumours that he was actually of southern Irish descent. I have not been able to find any confirmation of this. These rumours seem to have been started by Nairac himself and have been repeated by later biographers. Nicky Curtis states, presumably because he was told by Nairac, that “his father was Irish and Catholic”. This is not true, although Curtis may think it is. In fact, Nairac’s father was Catholic and Franco-Mauritian. His mother was 100% English and Protestant.  I think that Nairac very much wished that he had had some Irish blood. Can anyone cast any light on this persistent rumour? I'd be grateful to hear from them. 
Place of birth. Robert Nairac was definitely born in 1948 in Mauritius, where his parents lived at the time. However at least one author asserts that he was born in Sunderland, in northern England.  Nairac’s parents really did live in Sunderland when he was small. This may have helped to cause the confusion. To complicate matters, the City of Sunderland has adopted Nairac as a “famous son”, along with Sir Henry Havelock and the ancestors of George Washington, who lived nearby at Washington Old Hall. A project is in hand to erect a wall of remembrance to all Sunderland soldiers who have died in action since World War II. (Sunderland has lost its fair share of soldiers in Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan). Nairac’s name will appear on it. 
A French Connection.  This is much better substantiated. The Nairacs were of French descent, originally from the Bordeaux region.  The name is still found there. The wine Chateau Nairac once belonged to the family, although they sold the vineyard in the early nineteenth century. However the Nairac name stuck.  Robert Nairac’s branch settled in the Ile Maurice (Mauritius) as planters and landowners and remained there after the island became British, as did most of the French plantocrats. Robert Nairac’s photographs show him looking very southern French, with tough, dark good looks, slightly reminiscent of a young Jean-Paul Belmondo. He has cousins in France (to one of whom I have spoken), Mauritius, the UK and the USA. Most of them seem to be tri-nationals: UK, French and Mauritian.  
Old Catholic Gentry. Yes and no. Luke Jennings describes boyhood visits to Nairac’s family’s “almost absurdly beautiful” manor house in Gloucestershire, Master’s Keep. However this house was bought, not inherited. No doubt the Nairacs, with their distinction and aptitude for field sports, fitted easily enough into county society. But they were not long-established in Gloucestershire, nor did they belong to the circle of old English Catholic recusant families whom Evelyn Waugh celebrates in Brideshead Revisited and the Sword of Honour trilogy. Again, they seem to have fitted in well there, too. The Nairac brothers’ education at Ampleforth would have helped this process.  Not being an old-established family, they did not have a “family regiment” or a “county regiment” that Robert might have joined as of right. In the event he set his sights high: the Grenadier Guards. He was accepted by that elite regiment, thanks to the connections of his friend Julian Malins’ father.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metellus1 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  ROBERT NAIRAC'S ALLEGED IRISH ANCESTRY  

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thread_title:  Comments requested regarding a move that relates to this page 

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message: Place of birth- his elder brother and sisters were born in Kidderminster. He was not born in the UK. If he was born in Sunderland the birth was not registered. Mothers maiden names was Dykes.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.129.78.119 (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @212.129.78.119 And this is all properly sourced to ? 89.8.192.42 (talk) 05:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The site genesreunited.co.uk says that David L. Nairac was born in Birmingham in 1937. Under Deaths, his birth year is said to be 1938. David L. Nairac is said to have died in 1962 in London.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:7996:B901:55CC:53CE:6326:E774 (talk) 12:29, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vian