Talk:Magyarization/archive 3

message: this is nuts! The common voting system wasn't widespread across Europe til the early 20th century ... --fz22 22:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the voting system in KOH was so "democratic", how you explain the fact that Hungarians that participated in population with 54.5% participated in voting with 60.2%, while Romanians that were second largest group in the Kingdom participated in population with 16.1%, but only with 9.9% in voting? PANONIAN (talk) 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  this is not unusual even today ... your datas shows nothing. Take a look over Romanian elections eg from 1996, 2000 --fz22 20:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  To look what? I have no data about Romanian elections. PANONIAN (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There was a +/- 5% deviation in participants number between the Romanian majority and the Hungarian minority population in Transylvania. There are regions where the percent of Hungarian participants was higher and vice versa ... --fz22 07:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Plus the Hungarian voting system was based on property status, degree of education in the 19th century. The first modern style election in Hungary was held in 1918 (when women got the right to vote) BTW political feminism: they were forbidden from voting just to Magyarised them ... according to your logic: yes ;) ?!? --fz22 07:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Question of elections in Romania is certainly a proper subject of some other article, not of this one. Also, I would agree that not entire voting system in KOH served Magyarization policy, but much of it did. PANONIAN (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I gave you as an example to illustrate that such a think could happen even today and it has nothing to do with magyarization. --fz22 08:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Read the external link, the part on elections. No further comments are necessary. When I have the time, I will take over quotes, anyway, because I see that otherwise you will deny every single sentence here... And the situation in other European countries was not comparable to the fascist conditions in the KoH in the late 19th century and early 20th century whatever you say, And  for your information, there were periods when the Slovaks (some 2 million persons) had exactly 0 deputies (so much for numbers) in the parliament. This cannot happen in other countries other than countries in rain forests, Nazi Germany etc. Juro 10:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, so let's see some exact datas: In Transylvania there were around 25,000 voters which number increased slowly to 150,000 until 1914. As i mentioned before the voting system was based on property status thus the urban population (100,000) was represented by 23 congressman and the population of the old counties (~1,200,000) had only 20 representatives in the Parliament. Thus 25% of the Saxons (we are talking about the adult male population), 20% of the Magyars and only 9% of the Romanians had the right to vote. The Romanians thoght that this is the "biggest dishonour to them" (as it is stated in a Romanian Memorandum from 1882) which is absolutely true. But in accordance to the hungarian public opinion from Transylvania "the system was favourable to Romanians but they just cannot exploit it" which also could be the truth considering every single electoral district (in Romanian teritories consisted of 800 voters, 1400 in Szekelyland). Things are more subtle than you think.  --fz22 12:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is incredible that a person unable to write one correct sentence about history teaches me about "subtility", I am talking about really happened and not about what someone has declared or not declared. Read the external link. And as for the subitility: the Slovaks had 0 to 4 duputies in the 420 members parliament (not 4% but 4 persons), and in practise they were prevented from voting on ethnic grounds. That is the only thing that matters. Not only the voting system was bad, there were no free elections even at that bad level. The non-free elections had both political and magyarisation reasons and they must and will be mentioned here. Juro 13:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  voting system 

message: We should make a clear distinction between the post Ottoman war re-colonisation and the period after 1867 ... The first has nothing to do with Magyarization, it was just an attempt to repopulate an once prosperous territory --fz22 22:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no so "clear" distinction between colonisation before 1867 and after this year. The 18th century colonisation had 2 goals: 1. one was to increase number of inhabitants in the area, 2. the second one was to populate area with "certain ethnic elements". My source (book number 5 in references) claim that Hungarian duke Gražalković created colonisation plan with purpose that "Bačka gain Hungarian ethnic character". Fact is that Magyarization did not started in 1867 but in 1000 AD when KOH was created, but it was most intense in 1867-1918 period. That however does not mean that we should not write about events in other time periods. PANONIAN (talk) 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure but that "certain ethnic element" was definetely not Hungarian. Hungary cleared of Ottomans became part of the Austrian Empire by right of armed conquest so thay were reponsable for colonisation until 1867. Plus you cannot compare such a vaste repopulation happened in the 18th century (millions of new settlers arrived) and settling down a few thousand of Szekelys (from Bukovina) in Vojvodina (around 1880) ... --fz22 08:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "certain ethnic element" was both, German and Hungarian. Austrian authorities have settled Germans in the area, but the local Hungarian landowners have settled Hungarians. The Hungarian duke Gražalković had clear Magyarization intentions when he settled Hungarians in his possessions. And I would not say that only "few thousand of Szekelys" settled in the area. Much more Hungarian colonists settled there. See these numbers: in 1880-1900 period, ordinary population growth in the KOH was +10.3%. Now, let compare what was ordinary population growth of Serbs and Hungarians in the same time period in the cities of Vojvodina: Serb population growth was -19.5%, while Hungarian was +105.2%. What that tell you about both, (Hungarian) colonization and (Serb) emigration? PANONIAN (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And by the way, do you know at all what a population growth of +105.2% means? Let just say that it is five times larger than the current population growth of Albanians in Kosovo (which is about +20%, and which is largest population growth in Europe!!!) I think no further comment is needed about this colonization. PANONIAN (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, name Vojvodina dates from the 9th century, but that is another subject. Of course you forget to start your story with Hungarian colonization in the 10th century (in what was then South Slavic-inhabited land). And most important thing is that since this article discuss Magyarization, only colonizations relevant for the subject should be discussed here. However, you are right in one thing: Magyarization via colonization in fact started in the 10th century (not in 18th), thus something about this early colonizations could be said too. PANONIAN (talk) 23:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The Magyarization had many aspects, and it were not Austrian princes that Magyarized land by colonization, but ethnic Hungarian land owners. PANONIAN (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  hungarian landowners?!? Festetich, Grassalkovich (president of the Neoconquista Comitee), Pallavicini, Odescalchi, Keglevich, Waldeck, Bissingen, Baldacci, Seckendorf, Sina, Harrucker, Kollonich, Carafa(you know his story with "Ex lacrimis Hungarorum" brought to justice for his anti-Hungarian crimes), Savojai Eugen? and many other imperial oficers, subofficers, speculators, German, Greek, Croat, Serb ("in comitatu non de comitatu") "cowboys" got lands for a few penny while former Hungarian landowners have been robbed ...--fz22 07:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I speak about two landowners: Antal Grassalkovich (Antal is a Hungarian name, no matter of his surname) and Imre Csáky (who have both, Hungarian name and surname). PANONIAN (talk) 16:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No, this page just speak the truth about Kingdom of Hungary and I do not see why any decent Hungarian would object that this truth is mentioned. But let me guess: you are not a decent Hungarian, but a Greater Hungarian ultra-nationalist who want to create Greater Hungary again, so therefore you want to hide the truth about Greater Hungary, right? I do not think that it is worth, but can I give you advice? Why you and your "friends" who come here from time to time cannot do something usefull for Wikipedia instead to propagate your nationalistic dreams and insult all your neighbours? I cannot understand this need of the people to be destructive instead of constructive. PANONIAN (talk) 10:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not guessing at all. I simply analysing your words and your behaviour here and one should not be too smart to find a logical conclusion who you are and why you are here. PANONIAN (talk) 21:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colonisation 

message: "Countless personal names were Magyarized in a short period of time, often forcibly or unwittingly." How can a name be "unwittingly" Magyarized? Who is it asserting was unaware of this happening? - Jmabel | Talk 03:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unwittingly is probably not the correct adverb to use, however, Magyarization of personal names was fashionable at the period (we are talking about the era of dualism), just as the Anglicization of many immigrants to America is  a common process (like many Asians choosing English first names because their original names are hard to pronounce/or memorize for Americans. One should therefore be aware of the spontaneous aspects of Magyarization (economic progress, social advancement, elevation to middle class). A similar (yet successful) process occurred in France (or still occurring, see Alsace) where at the beginning of the 19th century, only 50% of the population spoke French but by the turn of the 20th century, the country had been successfully homogenized (often by much more drastic means than in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy). One should also not forget the suppression of Gaelic languages in the United Kingdom. Árpád 07:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe person that wrote that sentence wanted to say "Unwillingly" instead of "Unwittingly". PANONIAN (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks PANONIAN, you're probably right. And, if so, it was redundant to "forcibly". Árpád, I'm not sure why you think I was arguing with any of the rest of this, my issue was simply over an ill-chosen word. - Jmabel | Talk 23:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Unwittingly" 

message: Although one of my previous contributions has been deleted as "spam" (I intended none of the sort), I would still wish to keep a reference to the original web source (István Sisa: The Spirit of Hungary) regarding Pan-Slavism: http://hungarian-history.hu/lib/hunspir/hsp40.htm. It is important to note that the closure of the Matica and the Slovak high-schools (where for instance, Hungarian symbols were regularly desecrated by the teachers) happened at the initiative of the local county officials who complained about their subversive activities (The Palatine of Zólyom County, Béla Grünwald complained about contemporary Slovak leaders who were small-time corrupt crooks who embezzled the financial assets of their institutions). After the closure of the Matica, its financial assets were invested for Slovak cultural purposes, like the "Tót Közművelődési Egyesület" (Slovak Cultural Association). One should also not underestimate the reactionary aspect of Pan-Slavism as they wanted to subjugate the whole Central European region to Czarist Russia, and fighting against the Hungarian Revolution and Freedom Fight in 1848-49.
Also, the article should emphasise that the Act on Nationalities (1868) was probably the most progressive and tolerant piece of legislation around that time in Europe (it is instructive to compare it with contemporary French practices where the Breton language got virtually annihilated).Árpád 07:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Arpad, your post is spam because this is not article about Pan-Slavism. By all means go to Talk:Pan-Slavism and discuss this issue there. Regarding Act on Nationalities from 1868, it did formally gave some rights to nationalities, but as one Serbian historian wrote "the problem with that act was that no single word of it was ever implemented in practice". That was adopted only for outside World to hide the true nature of Magyarization policy in the country. PANONIAN (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The non-implementation of the law is an undisputable fact, not only one Serbian historian wrote it. It is also decribed in the external link, where one can see that even the then Hungarians were surprised when they were confronted with how they permamently violate exactly that law. Secondly, Arpad, you are lying again, and that is the most incredible lie I have heard in this context. The associations founded from the money stolen by the government (because the money was given to the Matica by the emperor and by private persons as a gift and was simply confiscated by the Hungarian government) were explicitely associations, whose official aim was to Magyarise Slovaks (issue Magyar books etc.) Juro 11:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan-Slavism and Nationality Act of 1868

message: We should specify here the direct cause of the emigration. People mainly moved for economic reasons (labour migration) and 25% of the emigrants returned until 1918 (this was stoped after WWI). They mostly left the country to gain enough money to buy a house, land, etc. eg. only 1% of the Romanians left for the Kingdom of Romania ... --fz22 11:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not deny that economic reasons were important for emigration (that is why ethnic Hungarians also emigrated from the country), but fact is that much more emigrants were non-Hungarians, thus many of them did not emigrated only because of economic reasons, but also because they were oppressed by the state policy. PANONIAN (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an opinion please provide us sources which support your theory. And specify it in the article that x% of the emmigrants were political refugees ... --fz22 08:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Source is provided, and the exact percent of non-Hungarian emigrants that emigrated for other reasons than economical could be provided by the statistical calculation which would compare participation of non-Hungarians in the KOH (51.9%) and their participation in emigration (72%). I do not think that such calculation is necessary, because anybody could compare 51.9% with 72% to see the difference. PANONIAN (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And please do not try to say that they emigrated from the poor areas, because one of the main centres of emigration (Bačka and Banat) was also the main centre of massive Hungarian colonization. PANONIAN (talk) 14:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: But was it same company? Link you provided say nothing about society in Hungary. PANONIAN (talk) 00:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emigration 

message: No offence for anybody, but it would be interesting that certain nicknames (I will not say which ones) that appear only in certain places could be chechked for sockpuppetry. This is only suggestion, and I will not say the names (but some people will certainly understand my post). As I said, no offence for anybody. :) PANONIAN (talk) 00:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, here is the evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Magyarization&action=history Just see when certain nicknames were registered, how many contributions they have and what articles they edit and everything would be clear. This place is full of sockpuppets. :) PANONIAN (talk) 15:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sockpuppetry

message: From http://www.ndu.edu/inss/strforum/SF_93/forum93.html
Hungary's 'Near Abroad'
Minorities Policy and Bilateral Treaties
by Hans Binnendijk and Jeffrey Simon
"During the First Republic of the interwar period, Czechoslovakia's major concern was to establish a democratic state and permeate it with Czech ideas. The existence of a Hungarian minority coupled with Hungary's revisionist policies provided the context for denying the Slovaks the federation that they had been promised. Hence, Slovaks saw Hungarians as rivals; and Slovak mythology about the period of forced assimilation after the 1867 Ausgleich was pushed back historically for 1,000 years. The First Vienna Arbitration in 1938 merely confirmed the Slovaks' perceptions of Hungarians as enemies."  
Alphysikist 12:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So you want to say that Magyarization is a myth? The problem with those who claim this is that they think that World was created in 1910, so according to them 1910 census is alpha and omega for everything. Well, that would not be the case. I will show you the Hungarian source which provide census data for 1880-1910 period and you can see that in the regions such are Transylvania, Slovakia or Vojvodina, Hungarian population highly increased in this time period, in both, the absolute number and procentual participation in population: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hmcb/Tab21.htm In Vojvodina: 265,287 Hungarians in 1880 (22.6% or third largest group after Serbs and Germans), 425,672 Hungarians in 1910 (28.1% or second largest group after Serbs). http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hmcb/Tab25.htm In Burgenland: 11,162 Hungarians in 1880 (4.2%), 26,225 Hungarians in 1910 (9.0%). http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hmcb/Tab14.htm In Transylvania: 1,045,098 Hungarians in 1880 (or 26.1%), 1,658,045 Hungarians in 1910 (or 31.7%). http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hmcb/Tab11.htm In Transcarpathia: 105,343 Hungarians in 1880 (or 25.7%), 185,433 Hungarians in 1910 (or 30.6%) http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hmcb/Tab07.htm In Slovakia: 574,862 Hungarians in 1880 (or 23.1%), 881,320 Hungarians in 1910 (or 30.2%). You can see a high increase of the percent and absolute number of Hungarians in all these regions, much larger than increase of absolute number of other ethnic groups (not to mention their procentual decrease). And this data apply only to small 30-year period. You can guess what would be result of comparison of increase of Hungarian population in 1715-1910 period. So, Magyarization is not a "myth" but pure statistics. PANONIAN (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source on mythology  

message: I pasted this paragraph written by Juro from the Slovakization article because it belongs to here according to its content. This doesn't mean that I agree with it,  personally I'm sure that it contains exaggerations, but I'm not concerned with it now. Zello 23:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Upper Hungary paragraph

message: The term Hungarization was used in at least three different meaning in this article:
1. the policies that were enforced in the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary in the 19th century and early 20th century
2. ethnic discrimination
3. A natural process in wich a person adopts the identity of another ethnic group(Hungarian).
In most cases it is not clarified, in what meaning the word is used. To avoid confusion it should be used in the original meaning(nr. 1) only.
:: Im referencing Dr. Dimitrije Kirilović's Asimilacioni uspesi Mađara u Bačkoj, Banatu i Baranji to prove that the original meaning of Hungarization applied only to forced policies in the end of 19th century and after. I do not claim he invented the word. --Al345 00:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Magyarization is an widely known historical concept, and this small book written by Kirilović is nothing but a drop in the sea of literature that speak about this in various languages. However, if you think that lead section should point to one source that speak about this, I recommend this source: A. J. P. Taylor, The Habsburg Monarchy 1809-1918, 1948. (Serbian translation: A. Dž. P. Tejlor, Habzburška Monarhija 1809-1918, Belgrade, 2001.) PANONIAN (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, i dont agree with it as his works were followed with great controversies. --Al345 23:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, what you tried to done here is that to point lead section of the article to the book written by Kirilović to make impression that entire article is in fact based on this book (while I in fact took only several statistical indicators from it). The literature that speak about Magyarization is numerous in many languages and it have nothing to do with Kirilović and his book. If we want to point lead section to one source that speak about Magyarization then the best choice is this book written by A. J. P. Taylor, because it is an non-Serbian, non-Romanian and non-Slovak source, therefor the one whose bias towards Hungarians cannot be questioned by the Hungarian editors. PANONIAN (talk) 00:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read some reviews of him. Start on wiki. Then read some criticism of his works. Kirilovic deals with the beginning of Hungarization in that book. Thats a fact. Or do you deny it? --Al345 00:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The meaning of Magyarization 

message: The "Kozponti Nevmagyarosito Tarsasag" was never ever existed in reality, it was just a political bluff by the minority leaders, to achieve more voters to themselfelves in the end of the 19th century, when nationalism arose around the world. Man, tons of bullshit is in here, 90% without any citation. Have you heard about the case of John Seigenthaler, Sr., with wikipedia? This can be a nex one. This article is pointing some nationalist bullshit as if it was a national movement, backed by/made by/forced by the that-day-hungarian government. --195.56.49.195 18:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please say what exactly does not have citations, and I will see to provide you one. Also, what is your source that claim that "Kozponti Nevmagyarosito Tarsasag" never existed? PANONIAN (talk) 22:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Wrong, names were not first Hungarian. Some of the places in KOH were not known under Hungarian names until the end of the 19th century. Even today many of such "Hungarian" names are nothing else but Slavic names written with Hungarian script. PANONIAN (talk) 21:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources are provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarization#References and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarization#Notes So, read the whole article before claiming that there is no source, ok? Regarding places, many places were simply newly-founded in the area by non-Hungarians during the Ottoman rule and were not known under Hungarian name before the end of the 19th century. As for some other names that you claim that were "translated former Hungarian names", these "Hungarian names" also largely were non-Hungarian (mostly Slavic) names translated in Hungarian. The Hungarian history begin with the fact that Hungarians crossed Carpathians and subdued native Slavic population from the area, thus the claim about "originality of Hungarian names" simply cannot stand when we know that even today many cities in Hungary have Slavic names including Hungarian capital Budapest whose name is composed of two Slavic words - Buda (personal Slavic name still in use meaning "awake") and Pest (Slavic word for "furnace"). Regarding Subotica, it had name Subotica in the 16th century too, not only today, as well as most places in Vojvodina. Some of the places in the region that today had new names gained these names because old Serbian names for the places were replaced with new ones (old Serbian name was replaced with new Serbian name and not old Hungarian with new Serbian). PANONIAN (talk) 14:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You want to say that Hungarians are not Slavs? Well, check these images then: http://www.assemblage.group.shef.ac.uk/images/4jordan4.gif http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF2003/Warren/Warren02.jpg People on these images are Khanty, the closest linguistic relatives of the Hungarians. So, if languages of Hungarians and Khanty are similar, then why Hungarians do not look like Khanty? The only logical answer is because Hungarians are not Hungarians at all. :) And check this too: http://www.geocities.com/zakus_1999/bloodtypes.html The closest genetic relatives of Hungarians are the Serbs (with 99% similarity) and the second closest are Greeks, Austrians and Albanians (all with 97% similarity). Something for you to think about before go to sleep. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 02:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  the human phylogeographic studies have nothing to do with bloodtypes. which is is routinely used in HPG is the HVR-1 of the mitochondrial control region (D-loop) and mtDNA D-loop mutations. According to your datas the Romanians closest relatives are the Finns :)) , the Turks second closest relatives are the Slovaks. --fz22 07:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that so strange? The entire Romania was settled by Slavs in the 6th century and Finns mixed with Slavs for centuries. Turks also have much Slavic blood. In Turkey, you have at least 4 million Turks of Slavic (Bosniak and Serb) origin. PANONIAN (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe you did not saw them for a long time, so you forgot how they look. I never saw a Hungarian that look like Khanty. I am not expert for genetics, but pictures do not lie. Here are images of some Hungarians from Bačka: http://www.dnevnik.co.yu/arhiva/17-08-2002/akt/JozefKasa-in.jpg (Jozef Kasa, politician), http://www.dnevnik.co.yu/arhiva/28-06-2003/akt/Agoston3.jpg (Andras Agoston, politician), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Monica_Seles_2005.jpg (Monica Seles, tennis player), etc, etc. Do they look like Khanty to you? PANONIAN (talk) 14:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What do you thing about these ones: http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/kep/19.gif http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/kep/18.gif http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/kep/17.gif --fz22 19:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bullshit 

message: Pannonian is probably indoctrinated by the history that he was thought in school! I am a Transylvanian that knows exactly how and what happened, because my family was the subject of maghiarization. Not only our family was affected, but the entire village. Even the name of the village was changed. I know this because my ancestors left written memoirs about the period. One of them studied in Budapest and another one in Wien (Vienna) and both could speak Hungarian and German but they were 100% Romanians. Lots war forces to convert from Orthodoxism to Catholicism! 
I’m sorry for you Pannonian, but this debate is pointless. You didn’t lose because you’re a blind nationalist, but because you simply don’t know (I hope!!). 
Anyway, it’s rather futile to tell Romanians your opinion when they all now what happened. The German and the Jewish minorities were also forced to speak Hungarian.
:Do you read carefully the above? Your argument does not contradict PANONIAN's argument.  Nobody deny that Magyarisation existed to subdue other Nations. Maybe you are confusing posts?  Ion Negru 14:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NON-Bullshit 

message: We have a list of Magyarized place names from the Bánát. I think that's a valuable list but too long for this article and gives too much weight for one region. So I propose to change this so to have a list with only 5 exemplary members: 1 Serbian, 1 Slovak, 1 Romanian, 1 Rusyn, 1 German.
This Bánát-list should be moved without any change to the Bánát article. Zello 23:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Serbian names were official on local level. The official language in the country was Latin, but in the cities of Vojvodina, both, Serbian and German were usually official on local level. Later when Hungarian became official language of the KOH, it became official on local level. Also, you have one very bad example here: "Szokolovác - Nérasolymos (now Socol, Romania)". If you wanted with this to show Magyarized Romanian name, you are wrong. This place is located in Romania, but the name is Serbian, thus, instead to show Romanian name that was Magyarized, you showed Serbian name that was first Magyarized and then Romanized. :) I suggest to replace this with some original Romanian name. PANONIAN (talk) 15:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Place Names

message: Inconsistency with wiki article Grassalkovich Palace. In that article user Juro claims that "Croatian is ethnicity, Hungarian is the state", and he is listed as Croatian. Which article should be changed? --Al345 23:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article was already changed and mention him simply as "Count Antal Grassalkovich", not mentioning his ethnicity. PANONIAN (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: But should it be changed to Anton Grassalkovich or better as Antal? --Al345 00:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Its also important regarding his role in Magyarization. --Al345 00:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency with wiki article Grassalkovich Palace 

message: I've never ever read such a hostile and anti-Hungarian article. Thank God someone put it out before me. Comparing to any other "-ization" articles, this is more than very awful, one sided, hostile etc. Here are some, to see, how an NPOV and good someizitation has to look like: Ukrainization, Anglicisation, Polonization. See? They were able to write it with pushing the majority's (aka non-hungarian) POV stuff through.
I read through the discussion page(es), here are some facts:
*The voting system was based on property status ! only rich ppl were allowed to vote, despite his/her ethnicity. (money rules :)
*First were slavic names, then hungarians, in regions, where slavs lived.
*Colonization: fz22 already told the fact: We should make a clear distinction between the post Ottoman war re-colonisation and the period after 1867 ... The first has nothing to do with Magyarization, it was just an attempt to repopulate an once prosperous territory. Yup, before 1867 colonization was only for the money. (to have more taxpayer) It occured in Maria Theresia's time.
*Antal Grassalkovich is here "Gražalković" and a hungarian landlord, who magyarized even the sky above his belongings, but in an other article (as mentioned above) - he is of croatioan origin and a victim of magyarization (by changing his name from Anton to Antal). Both standpoints are defended by the same users :D  I suggest a big "see-through" how many similar cases can be found, where things are changed (even to its inverse as here) to push through a POV.
*"Központi Névmagyarosító Társaság" - was just a society to help ppl who wanted to magyarize their name. Got it? Voluntary. In this article it seems like a...dunno...clan wich searched for slavic placenames and slave people to grab and magyarize them quickly :) Don't be ridiculous, such institutions can be found in nearly all of the countries of the word today. It helps for those, who wants to change their name to a local one, or "localize" it. :) 
* I strongly suggest reverting this article to as far back as this, under a major cleanup, then it can be rebuilt without this nationalist anti-hungarian content, wich it has now, becuse I don't want to list all the ridiculous things here, so many, that no one would ever go through them. :)--VinceB 22:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly in this article is "anti-Hungarian"? The article provide facts about nationalistic Apartheid policy of the KOH towards non-Hungarians that lived there. Those are pure historical facts and denial of these facts would be equal to Holocaust denial. Therefore, removal of facts simply because you do not like them is not in accordance with Wikipedia policy. PANONIAN (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: No, you should see that you denying it. Non-Hungarians even were not recognized as a "existing peoples" in post-1867 KOH, not to mention other "rights" that they had. Do you want to say that it is not truth? This was clear example of apartheid. PANONIAN (talk) 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The law existed all right, but no single word of it was ever implemented in practice. That show the whole hypocrisy of the Hungarin rulers from that time: they adopted a law to show to outside World how liberal they are, but they did not implemented the law in practice, which show what were their true intentions with non-Hungarians. PANONIAN (talk) 00:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Do not worry about that, Serbs are presented in much worse light in Wikipedia (just see Greater Serbia, Bosnian Genocide, Srebrenica massacre, etc, etc). You will not see one single article that present Hungarians like this. Of course, we all have our "dirty underwear", but trying to tell to the World that your own underwear is not dirty (when everybody see that it is) is not a very thankfull job. PANONIAN (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, reverting article to an outdated old version and destroying all changes of various users that were made during this time is never a good solution. Rather try to say what exactly you consider wrong in this version of the article. PANONIAN (talk) 02:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And how interesting that article about Anti-Hungarian sentiment speak much worse about Slovaks and Romanians than Magyarization article speak about Hungarians, and yet you call Magyarization article anti-Hungarian, no matter that it mostly present Hungarian statistical data from the time of KOH. PANONIAN (talk) 02:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The reason why they talk much worse, because they acted more worse against hungarians (I suggest using http://www.stars21.com/ for translating), or agains other ethincities. Cannot be compared to a cultural changing attempt, wich failed well before 1900, and a typical error by you, to push your very one sided point of view, with confuting any fact, that simlpy proves thatyour nonsense absurd, ridiculous - in one phrase: ultra-extremist - sentence(s) are nonsense, absurd, ridiculous - in one phrase: ultra extremist.  --VinceB 07:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Really. :) I see you get your sources from Hungarian propaganda. I am not a specialist in Slovak or Serb history, but give me a break on Romanian stuff. The Hungarians screwed (or tried to screw) the Romanian majority in Transylvania  during the Middle Ages, during the 1848 revolution, during the Ausgleich, during the second world war, and even today (the only region of Romania that currently (since the 1989 revolution) undergoes ethnic cleansing is the one with Hungarian majority). So I say you are the extremist. Once the Hungarians give up the "Greater Hungary/Saint Stephen Kingdom" idea, and stop denigrating all "former colonies", Eastern Europe will be a better place. Dpotop 08:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  Well, Avram Iancu was less extremist than Kossuth, and certainly killed less Hungarians than the Hungarian army killed Romanians at the time (for one, Iancu simply remained in his mountains to defend himself). As for Funar, the democracy in Romania lead to his destitution, as an extremist, and did not allow him to push what you call "ethnic cleansing" beyond painting Cluj benches in the Romanian colors (very american in approach, I find). On the contrary, people are still being forced to leave Harghita and Covasna, or magyarize. I would certainly give them full autonomy and then push on them the same minority protection laws that the Romanian state respects. Dpotop 09:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  Oh, and just a side note: Your "OMG" are ridiculous. This is not a discussion between girlfriends about the last Robbie Williams concert. Dpotop 09:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:   being forced to leave Harghita and Covasna? Or magyarize? In Romania??? Nope, I got a friend from Şumuleu Ciuc, and some other from different cities and villages of Hargitha, Covasna and from the romanian side of the rom-hun border. They told very different stories how things are going there. Where hungarians are not a majority, they are treated as secondary citizens. Also in offices everything only in romanian. See the hungarian minority policies, how Romanians, Slovaks, and other ethnics are treated here in Hungary. Agression is only againt gipsies and jews, and those are only by extremist, whom are treated here strictly. They got only 2.76% on elections, insted of SNS' more than 10 (!) percent, not to mention Meciar's party, or in romania, the Greater Romania Party's 12.57%... Its a lie (or with your words a romanian/slovakian propaganda) that hungarians are chauvinist. Nope, your chauvinist parties got more than 10 percent per party, ours are all came together in an alliance and got only 2.76 --VinceB 12:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Is this for real? I cite: "only against gipsies and jews"? That is, the only minorities that are still visible after the German and Romanian minorities were totally assimilated in the last century? Dpotop 12:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As for the "Romanian majority"... And how the became majority? No need for an answer. Just have a look at this picture  by your good friend PANONIAN and think. 195.56.30.68 10:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Listen, anon editor. I don't really know Pannonian, whether he's an extremist or not, etc. What I know is that he has a point here: Just like Romanians, Serbians, a.s.o., the Hungarians did some very nasty things in the past. The nasty deeds of Romanians (and probably Serbs, Croats, a.s.o.) are reported in other articles. Here, you try to fully whitewash Hungarian nationalism, and it cannot work, if at the same time you want the aggressions of the other reported. Dpotop 12:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  As for the Romanian majority... They were a majority in the earliest censuses for Transylvania. I don't know for sure, but I believe the most reasonable explanation for this is they were there before Hungarians. And, anyway, you will have to live with that fact. Dpotop 12:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totallydisputed 

message: I take that to mean "no, we'd rather kick each other's teeth out". But let me ask my questions again:
# What is the origin of the term "ethnic engineering policies"? I have never seen it. It is awkward English. If it is citable, please cite it. If it is not, it should not be here, because it would amount to a neologism.
# "the use of Magyarization in this article is prefered in its original meaning". What is the citation for considering a particular meaning "original"?
- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...a variation of Q2 - "What is the origin (e.g. first use) of the term Magyarization/Magyarisation ?"  The section "Origin of the term" does not give an origin, only descriptions.  The section should either be repaired or at least renamed. István 15:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Did you mean "if this would be the largest problem..." ?  Some of the above disputes seem to base upon a moving-target definition, i.e. whatever suits the argument at-hand.  The question of first use is quite bona-fide as editors are fond of appealing to its "original meaning" which remains unwritten (at least here). István 14:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: "Almost 530,000 person left the country between 1905 and 1907": might a large proportion of these be Jews? This was a major period of Jewish emigration from Europe in the wake of the failed Russian Revolution and the Iaşi pogrom. But it is not clear that would have been quite such an issue in Hungarian territories. - Jmabel | Talk 18:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1905-1907 

message: Petőfi from magyarized family? :D No, he choose it on his own will. If he would be forced, he would write poems about magyarization and such things :D No wonder, why do I see at this article' as a huge mess and full of lies and nationalist POV. It is obvious, that it contains a lie in the second paragraph. (not to mention the other parts, but this is an obvious thing for everybody, while the argument above is not) --Vince hey, yo! :-) 21:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While it doesn't appear to be coerced magyarization, it definitely is magyarization. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.112.23.225 (talk) 08:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: "Magyarized family" does not imply involuntary Magyarization; indeed, in the context I would think it would be hard to read it that way. - Jmabel | Talk 19:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Pan-Slavism was an movement that aimed to liberate Slavs from foreign rule. Do you want to say that movement for liberation is something bad? Hungarians wanted to enslave Slavs and Pan-Slavism was reaction to Magyarization and Greater Hungarian policy, not otherwise. PANONIAN (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, because Magyarization policy did started in 1848. PANONIAN (talk) 22:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: At the risk of opening another can of worms: pan-Slavism doubtless had elements of a liberation movement, but it also had aspects of a movement to establish Russian hegemony over Slavic lands. - Jmabel | Talk 19:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Wrong: the Hungarians were not freedom fighters - they wanted to create Greater Hungary and to enslave Slavs and Romanians. It is Hungarians who turned themselves against Slavs when they rejected to recognize their rights, remember that war in 1848 started when Hungarian army attacked Serbs. PANONIAN (talk) 22:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you want to say that Hungarians did not started war in 1848? Think twice before your answer... PANONIAN (talk) 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Here I must agree with Pannonian ;) with a few refinement: there was no Hungarian army, the recruitment started in May, 1848. And the defenders of Petervarad did not attack Serbs at random, but armed Serbian gunmens ... Read this VinceB: http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/1848/kronologia.html --fz22 11:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The sorces are listed in the article, you just have to read the whole article including footnotes and nothing more. PANONIAN (talk) 22:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: This might be truth about Jews, but never mind that, Hungarian fascists killed in 1942 raid in Novi Sad many of those Magyarized Jews. How you explain that? PANONIAN (talk) 22:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Vince here. - Jmabel | Talk 20:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

text: And why in 1918? Because that is time when Hungarian rulers realized that they will lost war, so they wanted to present themselves as "more democratic" than they were. How nice... PANONIAN (talk) 22:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Robert William Seton-Watson was an important British historian that published several books in important publishing houses of the time. We cannot ignore in here all he wrote, just because it happens that we don't like what he wrote. User:Zello just reverted all my edits that were referring to some Watson books. Most of the edits were not even comments, but statistical data taken from Hungarian sources. I don't want to start an edit war, so please don't just revert edits. Alexrap 13:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I support inclusion of this academic reference. It is a book published by Cambridge University Press and authored by a prominent British historian. Seton-Watson's works are valued especially for their comprehensive character and they are still extensively cited. For example, he is extremely highly regarded in Anderson's own influential book Imagined Communities (which is a mandatory reading in perhaps all the political science departments of the English-speaking world). Let me quote: "Hugh Seton-Watson, author of far the best and most comprehensive English-language text on nationalism, and heir to a vast tradition of liberal historiography and social science." Wikipedia cannot go against the consensus in the academia and disregard such an important scholar. Tankred 21:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Zello, if he was an influential politician during the Paris Pease Conference, as you say, it only means that some people (British Government) believed that he was an important politician. I couldn't find anything in his book saying that Romanians, Czechs or Slovaks have a cultural superiority over the Hungarians, so I cannot see how you can say that he is from the same crap category as Apponyi. Could you please explain what exactly you dislike from the things added to this article using his books? As I said, those were not even his comments, but just data taken from Hungarian statistics. Alexrap 12:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: As to the work for the British government, many of the most informed experts worked for their governments both during WWI and WWII. It does not make their expertise less relevant. Moreover, one of the cited books is from 1911, i.e. three years before WWI and well before any negotiations in Trianon, and another from 1934, i.e. 16 years after the end of WWI. No one has cited here any propagandist works written by Seton-Watson (if he really wrote any) during the war. Tankred 17:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: SW's work for UK during WWI does not discredit him as an historian, but the record shows it likely shaded his perspective of "Hungary" immediately after the war (Trianon).  In response to your post, here  are cited propogandist works written by SW during the war. I would take his works on interslavic relations seriously but not those on Hungarian issues, much as we could accept William Shockley as an authority on physics but not on sociology. István 18:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  OMG 

message: Why do the main park kept out from the article? Slavic nationalism brought the attempt to make Hungarian the first language of the Kingdom of Hungary, to broke them down. This is why it happened, and it occured only in education and administration, no other things. --Vince hey, yo! :-) 21:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pan-Slavism was an movement that aimed to liberate Slavs from foreign rule. Do you want to say that movement for liberation is something bad? Hungarians wanted to enslave Slavs and Pan-Slavism was reaction to Magyarization and Greater Hungarian policy, not otherwise. PANONIAN (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, because Magyarization policy did started in 1848. PANONIAN (talk) 22:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: At the risk of opening another can of worms: pan-Slavism doubtless had elements of a liberation movement, but it also had aspects of a movement to establish Russian hegemony over Slavic lands. - Jmabel | Talk 19:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Pan-Slavism]] 

message: Habsburgs incited the ethnicities against the hungarians to gain more solders against the freedom fighters, imprisoning or executing of ppl, (such as the irredentist Janko Kráľ) was made to A: broke down the armies, and to keep the status quo (borders) - If someone incites pple to grab a weapon and fight against an other, the other would soon execute or imprison him/her. Its a normal wartime activity. Just remember the Yugoslav wars they were not long ago. --Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong: the Hungarians were not freedom fighters - they wanted to create Greater Hungary and to enslave Slavs and Romanians. It is Hungarians who turned themselves against Slavs when they rejected to recognize their rights, remember that war in 1848 started when Hungarian army attacked Serbs. PANONIAN (talk) 22:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you want to say that Hungarians did not started war in 1848? Think twice before your answer... PANONIAN (talk) 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Here I must agree with Pannonian ;) with a few refinement: there was no Hungarian army, the recruitment started in May, 1848. And the defenders of Petervarad did not attack Serbs at random, but armed Serbian gunmens ... Read this VinceB: http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/1848/kronologia.html --fz22 11:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1848-1849 

message: I'm starting to think, that partly this page contains a marginal serbian theory (POV), since some paragraph, there is a sentence like this "Serbian historians consider this as an act of magyarization" (more or less similar). Nevertheless, this is a weasel term (
"serbian historians" - who? sources?), it is usad at those cases wich can be seen as not a "magyarization act".
see: "[...]Serb historians consider this plan to be an early Magyarization policy assuming that its goal was to provide that ethnic Serb population remain in majority only in central part of Bačka [...]" - that's cool, but was is the reality? Better to cut out conspiracy theories, or even better if all the theories, and replaced by facts. I puts  to many parts, wich are weasel terms, or contains a national(ist) theory instead of a fact. And some other statements also. If they are true, they can be easily sourced with reliable, not marginal/nationalist authors'  VERIFIABLE books/pampleths/whatever. --Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The sorces are listed in the article, you just have to read the whole article including footnotes and nothing more. PANONIAN (talk) 22:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian historians consider... - or what I call nationalist POV 

message: They seen assimilation as a godd way to become a full citizen, since they were treated as secondary citizens throuought Europe since they arrived there. Sometimes they were even expelled. (just one example wich is also the most notable: Alhambra decree from the Spanish Inquisition) - Now they had a chance to become a hungarian, who's religion is jewish. (Since this became common in the world, it became a common question that a "jew" is an ethnicity or a religion) --Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This might be truth about Jews, but never mind that, Hungarian fascists killed in 1942 raid in Novi Sad many of those Magyarized Jews. How you explain that? PANONIAN (talk) 22:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Vince here. - Jmabel | Talk 20:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jews

message: Since only males over 21 were allowed to vote untill 1918, half of the ppl (or let me say more than 50%) were shut out from the system. Since there was a wealth census also, the richest 10% were only able to vote. See it on this page above: Talk:Magyarization#voting system
Additional stuff: Suffrage#Types of suffrage (--> Universal suffrage, Women's suffrage), Suffrage#Forms of exclusion from suffrage#Social class 
In Hugary, the date of deleting every census and also giving voting rights to the women is 1918 (see Universal suffrage#Universal suffrage in the world)--Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And why in 1918? Because that is time when Hungarian rulers realized that they will lost war, so they wanted to present themselves as "more democratic" than they were. How nice... PANONIAN (talk) 22:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Voting system#2

message: *Pallas lexicon (in hungarian) - about the magyarization ("névmagyarosítás") of names. - the "Központi névmagyarosító társaság" was established on april 18, 1881, also it was it's first meeting. It propagated the thing, since there was no such law or whatever, and made a succesful lobby to reduce the fee of namechanging from 5 forints, to 50 krajcars (0,5 Ft). This is written down in the 1881. XXVI. law's 21. section. --Vince hey, yo! :-) 21:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Names

message: Hungary's ALL (yes, that's A-L-L ) laws are collected here, between the years 1000 (!!) and 2003. So, if magyarization was ever written down in a law, (or any such or other kind of events), we WILL find it. Very very very useful. Happy searching :) --Vince hey, yo! :-) 21:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Laws

message: Although Magyarization of surnames was certainly an existing phenomenon and it is mentioned already in the article I'm against to use Seton-Watson as a source. His work is the most infamous example of anti-Hungarian propaganda with many contorted and simply fake data. In wikipedia academic citations are needed and Seton-Watson is certainly not an academic writer. Zello 13:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Robert William Seton-Watson was an important British historian that published several books in important publishing houses of the time. We cannot ignore in here all he wrote, just because it happens that we don't like what he wrote. User:Zello just reverted all my edits that were referring to some Watson books. Most of the edits were not even comments, but statistical data taken from Hungarian sources. I don't want to start an edit war, so please don't just revert edits. Alexrap 13:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I support inclusion of this academic reference. It is a book published by Cambridge University Press and authored by a prominent British historian. Seton-Watson's works are valued especially for their comprehensive character and they are still extensively cited. For example, he is extremely highly regarded in Anderson's own influential book Imagined Communities (which is a mandatory reading in perhaps all the political science departments of the English-speaking world). Let me quote: "Hugh Seton-Watson, author of far the best and most comprehensive English-language text on nationalism, and heir to a vast tradition of liberal historiography and social science." Wikipedia cannot go against the consensus in the academia and disregard such an important scholar. Tankred 21:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Zello, if he was an influential politician during the Paris Pease Conference, as you say, it only means that some people (British Government) believed that he was an important politician. I couldn't find anything in his book saying that Romanians, Czechs or Slovaks have a cultural superiority over the Hungarians, so I cannot see how you can say that he is from the same crap category as Apponyi. Could you please explain what exactly you dislike from the things added to this article using his books? As I said, those were not even his comments, but just data taken from Hungarian statistics. Alexrap 12:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: As to the work for the British government, many of the most informed experts worked for their governments both during WWI and WWII. It does not make their expertise less relevant. Moreover, one of the cited books is from 1911, i.e. three years before WWI and well before any negotiations in Trianon, and another from 1934, i.e. 16 years after the end of WWI. No one has cited here any propagandist works written by Seton-Watson (if he really wrote any) during the war. Tankred 17:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: SW's work for UK during WWI does not discredit him as an historian, but the record shows it likely shaded his perspective of "Hungary" immediately after the war (Trianon).  In response to your post, here  are cited propogandist works written by SW during the war. I would take his works on interslavic relations seriously but not those on Hungarian issues, much as we could accept William Shockley as an authority on physics but not on sociology. István 18:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Seton-Watson