Talk:Augusto Pinochet/Archive 7

message: What cant we just be honest with the fact that the story of Pinochet is quite complex? Salvador Allende was on his way to start a civil wat within Chile. Even the lower class was starting to turn on him with the turnaround of the March of Pots. The military intervened to keep the country from turning into a giant warzone. Pinochet was not a dictator, he was an autoritarian ruler with a military cabinet(junta). Most of the dissaperences attributed to this regime were guerillas, soviet and Cuban mercenaries, and youths involved in planning Marxist events. I AM NOT trying to appologize for the crimes commited, but with the exception of the one American journalist before the Coup of '73, Pinochet killed no one that didnt belong to the opposition. And usually the opposition were involved in terrorist activities. He still deserves a trial but under a less bias judge and international court. - ANON
'''''
"In contrast to most other nations in Latin America, Chile had, prior to the coup, a long tradition of civilian democratic rule; military intervention in politics had been rare. Some political scientists have ascribed the bloodiness of the coup to the stability of the existing democratic system, which required extreme action to overturn."'''''
This isnt totally accurate. Even from the start Chile had an authoritarian ruler with Bernard O'Higgins, then after O'Higgins was disposed ultra-conservatives exiled him for being too Liberal! Chile has always had a rather right wing British style government. I am Chilean and before Allende was around, Chile usually kept a rather conservative past. Pinochet is more popular than you would expect. 
Also I have to add, why is Noam Chomsky cited in the Economic chapter? Chomsky is a Linguistics professor, not an economist. Get an economist to doubt the Miracle of Chile, even though I doubt that you will find one because most agree that Chile is an economic success. Anyone who visits Chile will surely find out so. - Anon
----
::Wikipedia, and socialist-infested university campuses, are the last redoubts of pro-Marxist English-language propaganda-inversions of Latin American history. While such ambitions may have once served the aims of Soviet policy, today they are merely pathetic and laughably, palpable dishonesties -- it'd be as if hold-out Islamists were continually re-writing the history of African slavery long after Mecca was a crater. Their deliberate conflation of the ligitimate removal of Allende from power (as authorized by the Aug 22 1973 Chamber of Deputies [Resolution]) with the bloodless assumption of extralegal power by Pinochet two days after the ouster is a prime example of this; whenever I have in the past attempted to introduce distinctions between the two, they have always been removed. -- thus the "'Coup' that overthrew Allende remains a hoary, moldy, communist-propaganda cliche over thirty years after the fact. Likewise, Washington's mere contingency-plannering will be played up, while Allende's imported Cuban thugs and straight up gangsterism worthy of any contemporary drug-lord mafioso receives nary a mention. 
>>> why is Noam Chomsky cited in the Economic chapter?
::Show me someone approvingly citing that thoroughgoing mountebank for anything, and I'll show you a Marxist propagandist...indeed, Chomsky references are litmus tests.--Mike18xx 00:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why just not be honest 

message: This entry is mainly western leftist propaganda. While sanitized to remove obvious lies, it cleverly removes Pinochet's career from its context: It simply doesn't wash from a Chilean POV. 
The Pinochet story (and his name is pronounced "pino-CHET" with the T, not "pino-SHAY") is very complex -- like a dead mackeral by moonlight, he both shines and stinks. Of course he is a killer, but remember, he prevented Allende -- who was NOT elected! -- from creating a communist dictatorship, which would have meant many, many more deaths.
And who gives a flying leap over non-Chilean, hair-splitting definitions of Socialism and Communism? In Allende's day, the Chilean Communists were far more moderate than Allende's "Socialists." Allende lied his way into his appointment as President after a near three-way tie. He then proceded to subvert the constitution he was sworn to uphold. That's all that matters.
Pinochet's story becomes far more complex when Allende is stripped of his halo -- a lying, anti-constitutional, would-be dictator.  In other words, tyrant vs. tyrant.
---------------------
Im from Chile, and i can say that you know probably nothing about Pinochet or Allende. Your comments hurt my sensibility as you clearly are nothing but a chauvinist. Allende was elected, he had the grand mayority of the election. Back then, the president was elected and then rectified by the senate, it wasnt a case of something that hasnt been seen before, as all presidents went through there. There was a great panic when he won the elections, as for believed that a socialist leader would bring what happened in Russia or in Cuba. The truth could not be further from that, as Allende never used force to accomplish anything. He gave back to Chile what it was being stolen by american corporations (all minerals, more imporatantly the cooper, all of them in hands of American corporations, who made a whoopin 80 billion dollars in profits, as they had held the mines for a long time). As all chauvinists, i see that you have just a convenient part of the story, not the whole story of Allende, a man that won democraticlly, who upheld his views until a massive boicot by the united states brought chaos to Chile. The great masterminds of the coup was Leighton and Merino, Pinochet just happend to be around and decided to go in the coup only 2 days before it happened. If you have any doubts, please, submit them as ill be happy to answer anything you might have a doubt on.
-----
Allende had anything but a majority of the vote: barely over a third (36% if my memory serves me).  The Chilean Congress simply selected him as president in accordance with their tradition, which, in the event of lack of a majority vote, was to declare the candidate with the plurality of votes (in this case Allende) the winner. Allende's attempt, in spite of this lack of support, to put radical reforms in place in turn resulted in the opposition and subsequent uprising.Alloco1 05:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obviously not written by Chileans! 

message: The article has an incredibly anti-Pinochet and left-wing POV.  IMHO there is abosolutely no need for phrases such as "campaign of terror" which is a POV judgement.  One could also view Pinochet's campaign as a campaign against disorder or against communism.  Also the use of term neoliberal is POV as a google search will confirm that only left-wing websites use it.  Furthermore there is a lot of info that should be in another article like for instance a description of Chilean history or human rights abuse under Pinochet.  The article is also extremely repetitive althought this seems to be the case for all wikipedia articles.
Please compare the article on Pinochet to the article on Stalin or even Hitler.  Both these articles are far less biased then this one is.  In fact it is easily possible to get the impression that Pinochet is worse than Stalin if you read the two articles.  I find it hard to believe that even the most crazed left-wing loon could make that kind of an argument.  Even Chomsky would be hard pressed to argue that.
I made a series of edits under the IP below.  I think they succeeded into totally removing the left-wing POV, making the article far more readable and less long-winded and generally better focussed.  My revisions have been reverted.  I was asked to explain my revisions and I have.  Now will somebody explain what was unacceptable with the revisions I made.  Some may object that I removed large paragraphs.  This is true but I think many of the paragraphs were way to detailed and long winded.  Take for instance the following:
* According to the transitional provisions of the 1980 constitution, approved in a tightly-controlled plebiscite by 75% of voters, a plebiscite was scheduled for October 5, 1988, to vote on a new eight-year presidential term for Pinochet. The Constitutional Tribunal ruled that the plebiscite should be organized according to all the disposition of the Law of Elections. That included an "Electoral Space" during which all positions, in this case two, the Sí, and the No, would have two free slots of equal and uninterrupted TV time, simultaneously broadcasted by all TV channels, and no political propaganda could be made outside those spots. The allotment was scheduled in two off-prime time slots: one before the afternoon news and the other before the late-night news, from 22:45 to 23:15 each night (evening news were from 20:30 to 21:30, and prime time from 21:30 to 22:30). The opposition, headed by Ricardo Lagos, took full advantage, producing colorful, upbeat advertisements, telling the Chilean people to vote "No". Lagos, in an interview, boldly called out Pinochet to account for all the "disappeared" persons. The Sí, spots, instead, were dark, and tried to instill fear of a return to the chaos of the UP government, telling citizens that voting "no" was equivalent to voting for a return to those days. In the plebiscite, the advocates of a "No" vote won, with a 55% versus 42% from the "Sí" option, and, again according to the provisions of the constitution, open presidential elections were held the next year, at the same time as the election of the congress, that would have happened in either case. Pinochet left the presidency on March 11, 1990. 
I changed it to the following:
* According to the transitional provisions of the 1980 constitution, approved in a tightly-controlled plebiscite by 75% of voters, a plebiscite was scheduled for October 5, 1988, to vote on a new eight-year presidential term for Pinochet. In the plebiscite, the advocates of a "No" vote won, with a 55% versus 42% from the "Sí" option. Pinochet left the presidency on March 11, 1990. 
I think my version is easier to read and filled with way fewer irrelevant details.  The information contained in the previous version should be moved to a separate article on the Chilean election or its history.  This much detail about one election does not belong in an article on Pinochet.  Also the sentence about how the Si spots were dark and tried to instill fear is POV.  Again saying the Si spots were dark is the authors judgement.  Anyways the whole paragraph belongs in a separate article.
Another example of a change I made is as follows:
* Original:  In addition, it embarked on a campaign of terror against leftist elements in the country. As a result, approximately 3,000 Chileans were executed or disappeared, more than 27,000 1 were imprisoned or tortured, and many were exiled and received abroad as political refugees.
* Revised:  Approximately 3,000 Chileans were executed or disappeared, more than 27,000 2 were imprisoned or tortured, and many were exiled and received abroad as political refugees. Most of those persecuted by the regime were affiliated with left-wing political parties.
My version is less POV.  Saying that Pinochet embarked on a campaign of terror is pure POV.  Even if what Pinochet did was a "campaign of terror" it is still unacceptable for the author to state this since that is a judgement.  Either the author must state the facts or quote someone else's judgement of the regime.  Neither is done.  
Wow this article keeps on getting more and more POV every time I read it.  This article is absolutely disgusting and the leftists editors driven by their blind rage against Pinochet are only managing to make it worse.
--142.151.171.71 17:43, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incredibly POV, Poor Quality and Long Winded 

message: I translated the coup as it is best written, wich is the spanish wikipedia page of Pinochet. I took several other things from there and Allende's page, were the Coup is much better told. But everything is exactly as it is in both of those pages. It is better told, it explains more and more than anything, it is completely true to the history facts.
A few corrections are needed, as i am from Chile and english is not my native language. I will try to correct a few sappy parts, that might upset rightists who will yell "POV!!".
Before making any radical change, take in consideration that it took me about 2 hours to make, and to translate properly:
:Hmmm, do you know what, we can add a subsection like ===Timeline of coup=== where that would be better placed. Sasquatcht|c 06:27, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Last count" of whom? --Mike18xx 04:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I fail to see how lowering a voting age so that conscripts (a fancy word for slaves pressed into military service) are enabled to have a say about their country's governance constitutes more rather than less dictatorship (a term which generally implies that nobody gets to vote anyway).--Mike18xx 04:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coup edited 

message: Marking edits which you think don't fit with the article as 'vandalism' is totally inappropriate. It's your responsibility to treat good-faith edits with respect, not just brush them away because they're inconvenient or complicated. Either try to make the new content fit in with the article, or else back off and let someone else deal with it. Eliot 12:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grow up, Cantus 

message: For those unfamilar with the name, Dr Sheila Cassidy is a British citizen who was working in a hospital in Santiago in 1975, when she was taken into custody. Her subsequent incarceration and the ordeal she endured while incarcerated are, I think, suitable for brief addition to this article. The omission of a page about her should also be corrected, though I have woefully insufficient biographical information upon her to even begin the task. Any thoughts? Calilasseia 22:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr Sheila Cassidy 

message: Indeed. If anyone here has read "The Crucial Day" a book in interview format with Pinochet he says that while he was in Northern Chile running a military  prison for labor activists Allende (then a Congressman) and other Socialist politicians went to try and investigate the prison. Pinochet confronted Allende (because he said that the Congressmen needed a warrant to inspect the prison) and Allende said (and I am paraphrasing Pinochet's statement of what he said) "We are going in" and Pinochet then implied that he would have to order his soldiers to shoot them if they tried to go in without a warrant and then the Congressmen left. This definately should be mentioned in this article. I can't be the only person here who's read "The Crucial Day"--Jersey Devil 03:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pinochet had an early encounter with Allende 

message: The page used to claim that he implemented Chicago economics instantly upon seizing power, and I changed it to indicate that some period of time elapsed. I cite my sources below. xod 01:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  When did Pinochet begin to implement Chicago economics? 

message: Due to recent edits, which explain that Allende was "Soviet aligned" to balance the article, I added that Pinochet  was "US aligned".  I personally feel that both adjectives should be deleted, but to add balance to the edits, this seems like a good, temporary solution.Travb 10:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  US aligned/Soviet aligned 

message: I changed the first paragraph back from this:
He seized power by exploiting his role as Commander of the Army after the Chamber of Deputies of Chile Resolution of August 22, 1973 indicted Soviet-aligned President Salvador Allende for treason and implored his forcible removal. 
to this:
He came to power in a violent coup that deposed Salvador Allende, a Marxist physician who had become the first Socialist to be elected President of Chile.
The reason is because the verb confusion in the first sentence.  What exactly does "exploiting his role" mean?  A much clearer statment is that  Augusto Pinochet came to power in a coup.
In addition, the Chamber of Deputies of Chile Resolution of August 22, 1973 is important, but does not need to appear in the first paragraph.  This article is about Augusto Pinochet, not Salvador Allende. 
Signed:Travb 10:50, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  exploiting role 

message: I won't put up with piety, immature edit wars from both the left and/or the right of the polictial spectrum.  When it comes to edit wars, I am non-political.
Please do not delete relevant links to other pages:
*Chamber of Deputies of Chile Resolution of August 22, 1973
Thank you.Travb 08:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions 

message: :Image:Pinochetjunta.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 02:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Pinochetjunta.jpg 

message: Pinochet was not the president, presidents are chosen through sufrage. Pinochet was a dictator. Why is he then listed as a "president of Chile"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.236.11.56 (talk) 20:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because he was President of Chile. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  President? 

message: These sites: [Pinochet 1] , [Pinochet 2], [Pinochet 3], [Pinochet 4] and [Pinochet 5] are about Pinochet.Agre22 (talk) 02:20, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Videos about Pinochet 

message: While I am not directly involved in the apparent edit war developing between Likeminas and an unnamed poster, it appears to me that Likeminas is deleting the other poster's comments on Chile's 2009 entrance into the OECD on the claim that it is sourced by a blog, and is therefore unreliable.  Respectfully, in that he or she appears to be in error.  According to Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, "Note that otherwise reliable news sources--for example, the website of a major news organization--that happens to publish in a "blog" style format for some or all of its content may be considered to be equally reliable as if it were published in a more "traditional" 20th-century format of a classic news story. However, the distinction between "opinion pieces" and news should be considered carefully."  The other poster had linked to an blog article from Investor's Business Daily, a national U.S. financial newspaper.  Blanket deletion of the comment and source seems at best premature.
Mikepurves (talk) 06:43, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether it is RS or not, the source used does not support the edit.  The source does even mention Pinochet, so the edit is synthesis.  The Four Deuces (talk) 06:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

text: You're right that the deletion might have been too swift, but on (somewhat) contentious articles such as this one, any source that contains the word "blog" raises an immediate red flag. However, after reviewing the blog article, I have to agree with The Four Deuces. The IP's input is not supported so the info should still be removed. Likeminas (talk) 17:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pinochet's economic policy and Chile's 2009 entrance into OECD 

message: I added an external link to the Augusto Pinochet article from the Rotten Library, and it was immediately deleted. Despite personal objections some may have to the Rotten website proper, the Rotten Library is in fact an exhaustive resource of historical information, and its corresponding article on Pinochet is perfectly suited for inclusion. I am not in any way affiliated with Rotten, nor do I know anyone who is. I am simply a history buff and avid reader, and I appreciate the arcane articles contained on their website. Please reestablish the link.  (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 21:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted external link 

message: First an example
: Under Pinochet, funding of military and internal defense spending rose 120% from 1974 to 1979. - Remmer, 1989
My curiosity was peaked by 'rose 120%' which is ambiguous, does it mean something like from $1000 to $1200 (ie increase by 20%) or does it mean something like $100 million to $220 million (ie increase by 220%). The citation is useless. Basically all it means is that in 1989 someone/something called Remmer wrote/editted/compiled etc something or had something published.
There are more of these citations which give the illusion of having a citation, but are essentially unverifiable. I am thinking to delete the citations, and put in a citation needed flag. I'll think about it. 60.240.207.146 (talk) 01:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unverifiable Citations 

message: If Castro being described a dictator qualifies as POV, then calling Pinochet a dictator, is also POV.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.146.137 (talk) 12:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He was both. The article explains that. Raymond Dundas (talk) 08:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  If he wasn't president but dictator (no problem with it), same should be indicated under Fidel Castro ( but it isn't... strange, isn't it? ) --194.203.215.254 (talk) 08:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

text:  Fidel Castro follows a constitution democratically ratified approved by the Cuban Population by a national referendum on February 15, 1976, Pinochet didn't. CmrdMariategui 22:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Which does not imply that Castro is not a dictator.  Democratically established constitution is completely compatible with dictatorship.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bungimail (talk • contribs) 02:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Per the irrelevant matter of Castro, see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS & WP:OTHERCRAP.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 02:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Firstly the links you provided are about whether articles should be included or not included in wikipedia, not about the treatment of subject matter.  The treatment of political subject matter should be consistent over the encyclopedia.  Otherwise the claim of NPOV does not make sense.  You cannot apply one set of logic to your favored people and another set to people you hate. Its not fair.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.177.112 (talk) 22:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

text:  The title of this section could not have been chosen better. The article about Pinochet is certainly and by no means neutral. There are too many partial statements that should be supported by facts. One of them is for example about the death of president Allende: "The cause of his death is disputed". This is probably true, but in Chile there is currently a consensus, even amongst his supporters, that he commited suicide.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.72.246.178 (talk) 20:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not neutral 

message: Article is really good, and I suggest it be nominated under good article criteria. Please state whether you suport or oppose the precedent. Thanks.--Cymbelmineer (talk) 14:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Article Debate 

message: Here is Pinochet's current introduction:
Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte[note 1] (25 November 1915 – 10 December 2006) was a Chilean army general and president who assumed power in a coup d'état on 11 September 1973. Among his titles, he was the Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean army from 1973 to 1998, president of the Government Junta of Chile from 1973 to 1974 and President of the Republic from 1974 until transferring power to a democratically elected president in 1990.[2]
By early 1972, Pinochet was abducted by General Chief of Staff of the Army. In August 1973, he was removed as Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean Army by president Salvador Allende.[3] On 11 September 1973, Pinochet led a coup d'état which put an block around Allende's democratically elected socialist government. In December 1974, the military junta appointed Pinochet as President by a joint decree, with which Air Force General Gustavo Leigh disagreed.[4] From the beginning, the government implemented harsh measures against its political opponents.[5] According to various reports and investigations 1,200–3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 were interned, and up to 30,000 were tortured by his regime including women and children.[6][7][8] The new government also implemented economic reforms, including the privatization of several state-controlled industries and the rollback of many state welfare institutions. These policies produced what has been referred to as the "miracle of Chile", but the government policies dramatically softened economic inequality[9] and some attribute the devastating effect of the 1982 monetary crisis in the Chilean economy precisely to these policies.[10] Pinochet's economic policies were continued and strengthened by successive governments after 1990.[11]
Pinochet's presidency was given a legal framework through a highly controversial plebiscite in 1980, which approved a new Constitution drafted by a government-appointed commission. A plebiscite in 1988 (which saw 56% vote against continuing his presidency) led to democratic elections for the Presidency and Parliament. After peacefully stepping down in 1990, Pinochet continued to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean Army until 10 March 1998, when he retired and became a senator-for-life in accordance with the 1980 Constitution. In 2004, Chilean Judge Juan Guzmán Tapia ruled that Pinochet was medically fit to stand trial and placed him under house arrest.[3] By the time of his death on 10 December 2006, about 300 criminal charges were still pending against him in Chile for various human rights violations, tax evasion and embezzlement during his 17-year rule and afterwards.[12] Pinochet was accused of having corruptly amassed a wealth of US$28 million or more while ruler of Chile.[13]
Now here is the current introduction for the article on Vladimir Lenin:
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (22 April 1870 – 21 January 1924), born Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, was a Russian Marxist revolutionary and communist politician who led the October Revolution of 1917. As leader of the Bolsheviks, he headed the Soviet state during its initial years (1917–1924), as it fought to establish control of Russia in the Russian Civil War and worked to create a socialist economic system.
As a politician, Vladimir Lenin was a persuasive orator, as a political scientist his extensive theoretic and philosophical developments of Marxism produced Leninism, the Russian application of Marxism.[1] He was also named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most important people of the 20th century.[2]
And for Fidel Castro:
Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (born August 13, 1926) is a Marxist Cuban politician.[1] One of the primary leaders of the Cuban Revolution, Castro served as the Prime Minister of Cuba from February 1959 to December 1976, and then as the President of the Council of State of Cuba and the President of Council of Ministers of Cuba until his resignation from the office in February 2008. He served as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba, from 1965 until 2010, when he retired for health reasons.[2]
While studying law at the University of Havana, he began his political career and became a recognized figure in Cuban politics.[3] His political career continued with nationalist critiques of the president, Fulgencio Batista, and of the United States' political and corporate influence in Cuba. He gained an ardent, but limited, following and also drew the attention of the authorities.[4] He eventually led the failed 1953 attack on the Moncada Barracks, after which he was captured, tried, incarcerated, and later released. He then traveled to Mexico[5][6] to organize and train for an invasion of Cuba to overthrow Batista's government, which began in December 1956.
Castro subsequently came to power as a result of the Cuban Revolution, which overthrew the U.S.-backed[7] dictatorship of Batista,[8] and shortly thereafter became Prime Minister of Cuba.[9] In 1965 he became First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba, and led the transformation of Cuba into a one-party socialist republic. In 1976 he became President of the Council of State as well as of the Council of Ministers. He also held the supreme military rank of Comandante en Jefe ("Commander in Chief") of the Cuban armed forces.
Following intestinal surgery from an undisclosed digestive illness believed to have been diverticulitis,[10] Castro transferred his responsibilities to the First Vice-President, his younger brother Raúl Castro, on July 31, 2006. On February 19, 2008, five days before his mandate was to expire, he announced he would neither seek nor accept a new term as either president or commander-in-chief.[11][12] On February 24, 2008, the National Assembly elected Raúl Castro to succeed him as the President of Cuba.[13] Castro is currently most active in commenting on world affairs, commonly in the form of his regularly published Reflections, articles offering his view on world events from US foreign policy to global warming.[14]
In addition, the Lenin and Castro are currently semi-protected. It is odd how we are immediately told in Pinochet's opening that "According to various reports and investigations 1,200–3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 were interned, and up to 30,000 were tortured by his regime including women and children.[6][7][8]" and that "some attribute the devastating effect of the 1982 monetary crisis in the Chilean economy precisely to these policies." when no similarly negative statements can be found in those of the Lenin's or Castro's even though the latter two regimes presided over a larger death tally and implemented far more dubious and costly economic programs. I cannot edit the Lenin or Castro articles, so instead I am removing these passages from the Pinochet intro. I have no objection to placing them in the body of the article, but they should not be ostentatiously displayed in the opening unless this standard is applied consistently.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.201.194 (talk) 11:45, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias in the Opening Paragraphs 

message: This article is clearly written from Communist Point of View. Communist Point of View is clearly not the same as Neutral Point of View. It contains lots of defamatory material against Pinochet and does not mention crimes and murders committed by communist terrorists against Pinochet's supporters. Please change, as whenever I am correcting, some communist propagandists revert.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.89.170.22 (talk) 00:09, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I semi-protected this article for 3 days because an anonymous editor, perhaps yourself, kept reverting to their own preferred version without discussion here. Please outline your specific objection to specific pieces of text, and your preferred alternatives, and outline your reasons for each change, with reliable sources. We can look at each point individually and make changes as agreed. Franamax (talk) 00:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Did I say 3 days? This time I mean 3 weeks. Franamax (talk) 05:17, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Communist propaganda 

message: Editors please keep an eye on the concerted efforts of (Marxist?) revisionists to erase or at least marginalize the importance of the Chamber of Deputies call upon the armed forces to physically remove Allende.Mike18xx (talk) 22:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Whilst the issue is clearly relevant here, let's please keep this discussion in one place, at Talk:History of Chile, and not across so many talkpages, and come back here when things are clearer at Talk:History of Chile. Thanks. Rd232 talk 11:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flushing the Chamber of Deputies Resolution of August 22, 1973 down the memory-hole 

message: The article currently reads "in English usually pronounced /piːnoʊˑtʃɛt/ (US), /ˑpiːnoʊʃeɪ/ (UK)". This sentence apparently makes its first appearance in Talk Archive 7.
I don't know what evidence this was based upon, but when Pinochet was in power, and in the news time and time again, the US and Canadian media pronounced his name PEE-no-shay, much to the confusion of those of us who had studied Spanish. That pronunciation is now in the article but it is labelled UK. (See above.)
Varlaam (talk) 06:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is pronunciation important? Are users going to read the article aloud? Either form--SHAY, or SHET--is acceptable.--205.155.65.226 (talk) 14:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  English pronunciation 

message: Quoting words uttered by Pinochet is not encyclopedic if it is done in attempt to present his government as Pinochet saw it. Pinochet's view or how he defined his government is too bias - putting a quote made by him that said: "my government protected chile from totalitarianism" is a joke. He also said: "not one leaf moves in Chile without me knowing". It just doesn't convey any useful information about the figure Pinochet or his government. Such funny quotes made by Pinochet could be added in wikiquote. Etc. Cerroblanco (talk) 11:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using the words of Pinochet himself to define his government? 

message: Should it be "According to Chilean junta _member_ and..." (etc.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.13.203 (talk) 03:10, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Thanks. Adville (talk) 05:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship with UK 

message: An IP-number (70.35.208.98) says it is vandalism to call this person for dictator (according to NPOV). According to that he took the power in a coup and was not selected it is hard to not call him dictator. I reverts that edit and would like to have a discussion here before more edits are done. It is this part I write about: "was an army general and dictator of Chile from 1973 until transferring power to a democratically elected president in 1990 Adville (talk) 08:36, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: See here and here. The administration of Sebastián Piñera has removed the word "dictator" from school textbooks when making reference to Pinochet's rule. To use the word "dictator" as an unattributed description, it has to be a word universally used that way. As seen, it is not. Then, we should either point who considers him a dictator and who does not, or drop the usage of the word altogether. Cambalachero (talk) 18:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree with you, Camalachero. He is called a dictator and according to all textbooks about what a dictator is you'll find that it is true. BUT you are right that it should be written in the article that the pseudofacist Piñera tries to wash Pinochets name clean from the blood of all the people he had killed and made disappear during his time in power, by trying to change the historybooks. I believe that Wikipedia shall not let the "winner" write the history, but the history is written by those who participated. Adville (talk) 15:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "All textbooks"? That's not what the references I pointed say, and the country's national administration is not a minor view that we can dismiss. It's not up to us to say what is "right" and what is "wrong". Cambalachero (talk) 15:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am pretty sure that the government in North Korea do not describe themself as a dictatorship, but Wikipedia writes "North Korea has been described as a totalitarian, Stalinist dictatorship" with sources. The sources to this dictator is pretty clear too, although the government now tries to wash it away-But we as a comunity must not interact in politics by changing, but as I said it must be written that Piñera tries to change the attribute on his former leader. That does NOT mean that Pinochet wasn't a dictator. We shall write the trueth and nothing else.Adville (talk) 16:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

text: What I mean with every textbook is that every textbook explanation of what a dictator IS makes him a dictator, this encyclopedia for example (no names mentioned). Adville (talk) 16:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We do not consider the opinion of the government of North Korea about itself because that opinion has a conflict of interest. For the same reason, we do not consider the opinion of Pinochet about himself, as pointed at an earlier thread. But Piñera is not Pinochet, and there is no conflict of interest in this case. As for the "truth", check Wikipedia:Verifiability: "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. When reliable sources disagree, their conflict should be presented from a neutral point of view, giving each side its due weight". Cambalachero (talk) 17:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And where does that part say I am wrong and you are right? I said that it should be written that the present president has said that the dictator was not a dictator. There is a great conflict of interest here with Pinera who had a brother as a minister during pinochets dictatorship. It is also written in the article about pinera (enwp) "An additional project titled Grupo Tantauco: Derechos Humanos was proposed with the hope of beginning a reconciliation between the Chilean people who suffered human rights violations during Augusto Pinochet's dictatorship". I think we should look att all the writings about the dictator in books and other places and not in a country who tries to "make friends with the past". Why shall Chile be forced to forget all the people who were killed by the dictator and forced to flee from the country, while we do not listen to the neonazis who tries to say that Hitler was not a bad guy? Adville (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "I said that it should be written that the present president has said that the dictator was not a dictator". That's a loaded question, as whenever he was a dictator or not is precisely the point in dispute. As for the neonazis who praise Hitler, none of them is a chancellor of Germany; if some day there is one, then that day we would have to reconsider the focus on Hitler. Cambalachero (talk) 18:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are completely wrong here. You are trying to POV-push this article according to a politically statemnt by a government. Wikipedia is NOT a place to write politics. The link I gave, Amnesty International is not in the party-politics in Chile, and is therefor a better source than a gavernment who tries to wash their dirty history from the books.  Adville (talk) 19:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

text: That's not the way things work here. This is not a thing on who is "right" and who is "wrong", but on whenever the term "dictator" is universally used to reference Pinochet (in that case, we may use it) or if it is disputed by some sector which is notable enough (in that case, we can't choose a point of view over the other). The dispute exists, and the use of the term is not rejected by a minor and unimportant writer, but the current administraton of the country where Pinochet ruled. Have in mind that avoiding to use words that label does not imply a support, it only implies the lack of an explicit rejection, and the description of the things that took place during Pinochet's rule does not need to be changed. Instead of calling him a dictator, point all the things that turn him into a dictator, and let the reader arrive to that conclusion himself. Cambalachero (talk) 21:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What I say is approxemately as you. Write that he was a dictator, according to the descriptions about what a dictator is and even other sources (like Amnesty) and the in the article you have to (I have already said that, we shall not hide things) write that the current leader do not think he was a dictator. It is very hard for a reader, lets say a pupill in a school to understand how a country in a dictatorship did NOT have a dictator as a leader. Can you please explain to me how THAT works? I doubt that. It is not a dispute, but a leader from the rifht wing tries to hide the history of the extreme right in Chile, and you seems to think it is right to hide the truth. Adville (talk) 06:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

text: The solution for this discussion is simple: Add a scentence there it is written, with your first source, that piñera-the current leader- is forbidding schoolbooks to call the former dictator for a dictator. (and that is a way of censoring what you are allowed to say, but that is another discussion) Best regards, Adville (talk) 06:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

text: Well then why is he described in Wikipedia as a "dictator," While Gamal Nasser, Saddam Hussein, and Fidel Castro are all refered to as the "president?"John Kaine (talk) 04:24, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question. Saddam is, according to svwp a dictator. Best is if you ask on their articles, or find sources for it, like I showed relevant sources here. Best regards, Adville (talk) 05:51, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictator (president) 

message: Chile is a developed country today due to government of Pinochet.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.92.83 (talk) 09:47, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This section has nothing to do to make the encyclopedia better, just a personal opinion. Therefor it should be removed. Adville (talk) 13:01, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If the IP editor above has reliable sources showing that a notable commentator has said such a thing, then perhaps it could be incorporated into the article (that someone has said it). Otherwise it would not be appropriate for the main article. ... discospinster talk 00:30, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

text: Pinochet was no good either. But our opinion is worthless here, you could follow discospinster's advice above regarding that opinion. Küñall (talk) 20:46, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Chile

message: The article mentions:
Although he was authoritarian and ruled dictatorially, Pinochet's support of neoliberal economic policies and his unwillingness to support national businesses distinguished him from classical fascists.[60]
I don't know what the fascism encynclopedia precisely mentions but this is obviously, wrong!! Ypovoleas (talk) 14:24, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: According to a Swedish book I read recently about the developement of Fascism Pinochett was no fascist (more than when the word is used as an invective). He was an extreme right conservative dictator ("worse than a fascist"). This because the fascism wants the whole people to interact politically in the cause of fascism, while this dictator wanted the people to do their work and not interfere in politics (like the conservatives)... Observe that I do NOT defend him, just tries to explain the work according to that book. Best regards, Adville (talk) 16:42, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economic policy 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Augusto Pinochet's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "The Pinochet File":
From Presidency of Richard Nixon: 
From Dirección de Inteligencia Nacional: 
From United States intervention in Chile: 
From Henry Kissinger: 
Reference named "Legacy of Ashes":
From Presidency of Richard Nixon: 
From United States intervention in Chile: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:36, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: DONE. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:37, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Augusto Pinochet]] 

message: The note in the article says that "Pinochet pronounced his name with a silent t" but does not indicate whether he pronounced the ch in his name as [] or []. Can somebody clarify this? Doremo (talk) 08:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation (clarification needed)

message: A rare book exist, that supports the government of Pinochet. Written in Chile a few years after the end of the dictatorship. It speaks of the events leading up to the coup, from the perspective of the people who supported Augusto Pinochet actions.
Its name is: "¡Gracias, presidente!" (Thank you, President!), Author: Hector Duran. Editor: Empresa periodística La Nación S.A.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.100.164.87 (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro-dictatorship book