Talk:Sinterklaas

message: Zwarte piet never really existed (Sint Nicolaas did). Other then mentioned, Zwarte Piet was introduced around 1850, so not during the middle ages!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.250.190.29 (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: zwarte piet (black pete)

message: Celebration of Sinterklaas is the celebration of his name day, which was the day of Nicolas' death!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.161.252.154 (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: In one paragraph it begins by stating, "Contrary to popular belief, Sinterklaas is not the basis for the North American figure of Santa Claus." Then the paragraph goes on to describe exactly how and when Sinterklaas became Santa Claus in American. I'm taking out the first sentence since it's not cited or explained at all, and is also ridiculous. Santa is clearly this same guy.  Noit (talk) 16:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well Sinterklaas ain't fat! :D 77.251.46.60 (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Sinter/Santa

message: "The children, up to an age of usually seven or eight years, almost religiously believe in Sinterklaas. They think that he actually lives forever and that he comes from Spain, that he knows everything about the children and that his Zwarte Pieten do come down through chimneys. The period between his arrival and December 5 is therefore very exciting."
This seems not non neutral pov to me and assumptious. I did not believe in Santa Claus when I was young and I doubt all children believe in Sinterklaas. Genjix 11:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The wording doesn't imply all children believe — just that it is typical for them to do so. Research shows that about two-thirds of Dutch families celebrate Sinterklaas.--MWAK 08:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm Dutch myself. I can tell almost every kid in the Netherlands believes in Sinterklaas. There are very very few children who don't. I believed in it too.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.75.131 (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: To tell the truth: real, hard-core Dutch Protestants hate Sinterklaas, Santa and Christmas, as popish propaganda. According to them a Christmas tree is Pagan at best and Satanic at worst. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:28, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Partial view 

message: Why is there no mention of the Original St Nicolas. His Birthdate and the day he passed away. And that he was the Bishop of Myra (Turkey), but we (the Dutch and Belgians) heard of him through the Spanish who occupied us and so we naturally assumed he must have been from Spain. And that he was very a giving man (especially to the poor), that's why he gives presents on his birthday instead of recieving them. And we always eat pepernoten when we cellebrate Sinterklaas, which look like horse droppings, coz besides gifts that's what people found when Sinterklaas had paid a visit. 
St. Nicholas: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38
Pepernoten: http://www.directrecipes.com/archives/dec/02_Dec_97_Pepernoten.html
http://images.google.nl/images?&num=10&hl=nl&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-19,GGLD:en&btnG=Google+zoeken&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_qdr=all&as_dt=i&as_rights=&safe=images&sa=N&tab=wi&q=pepernoten
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whatsit (talk • contribs).
:So change it, instead of adding a POV marker. I am removing the POV tag. Improve the article instead of giving it a POV tag. --Daniel575 | (talk) 00:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dutch heard of Sinterklaas through Spain because the relics arrived in Bari in 1087 (11th century) and Bari later formed part of the Spanish/Aragonese Kingdom of Naples and the Two Sicilies until the eighteenth century.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.235.168.115 (talk) 22:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Original

message: This article has a template saying it contains unverified claims / lacks resources.
I have tried to review this article, and as an inhabitant of the netherlands i'll try to spot anything which seems doubtful or wrong.
=== overview ===
* In the Netherlands, Sint Nicolaas, Sinterklaas' eve is the occasion for gift-giving. *:Doubtful statement. Birthdays are tradtional coccasions to give presents. Sinterklaas is an occasion to give presents, but only under certain conditions. A better intro would be: In the Netherlands, Sint Nicolaas, Sinterklaas' eve is a folklore party evening, or something like it.
** Well, that IS the essential of this folklore: giving presents to eachother. So the wording is correct.
***I concur. The Bishop of Myra is holy because he gave gifts to the poor children. In this (commercialised) tradition, Sinterklaas comes to the children on Sinterklaas eve to give them presents (if they've been good, but the latter doesn't apply so much nowadays.)
=== Sinterklaas ===
*called Amerigo or Slechtweervandaag (Badweathertoday)
*:The name Amerigo is mentioned on several websites. Slechtweervandaag is also mentioned on one website as his donkey, other, mainly Belgian websites, mention it as his horse. 
About the name of the donkey/horse of Sinterklaas, I've seen the series and yes in Belgium it's quite commonly known a Slechtweervandaag. Tough I think the name is slowly decreasing in usage. As no new shows in Belgium were made ever since (with a decent influence, I can't recall any) and a lot of kids watched Dutch shows. So names like Amerigo are also used over here. There's no real name tough, just names from tv shows wich are used and later slowly fade away. Also I always tough it was horse, a type called a schimmel. It's a grey horse with white spots. I know Slechtweervandaag and Amerigo were.
Slechtweervandaag was the name of his horse in a Belgian TV show back in 92/93. It remained that way in the minds of people since... (Anonymous - 04:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have always been taught people tell he's from Spain because back in the day people's knowledge of geography was quite limited. As people were uneducated, the most distant country (from the Netherlands) beyond France was Spain. DWizzy 11:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Italy was ruled by Spain but not during the 11th century. At this time, in 1035, the Kingdom of Aragon was established during the Christian Reconquest of Spain (which ended up in 1492). The Kingdom of Aragon along with the Kingdom of Castile will form the Kingdom of Spain under the "Catholic Monarchs" rules. The expansion of the Aragonese Crown will include initially the kingdoms of Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca and the counties of Catalonia, Cerdanya, Roussillon and the lordship of Montpellier. And since the 13th century also began the proyection of the Aragonese Crown through the Mediterranean... Corsica, Sardinia, duchies of Athens and Neopatria until 1388, and the kingdoms of Sicily (from 13th century) and Naples (from 15th century). Bari belonged to this kingdom until the 18th century. The Spanish Netherlands were ruled since Charles V (the only grandson of the "Catholic Monarchs"), was elected Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 1519 until the Treaty of Utrecht 1713, and is during this time when there is such influence coming from Bari, a city in the Spanish Kingdom of Naples.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.235.168.115 (talk) 00:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

text: As far as I know mandarin oranges belong to Sint Maarten. --Ajv39 (talk) 12:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "Belong" would seem a little strict. They just happen to be a common thing in the last months of the year, rather than being specifically connected to a particular holiday.Drabkikker (talk) 13:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  review 

message: *called Amerigo or Slechtweervandaag (Badweathertoday)
*:The name Amerigo is mentioned on several websites. Slechtweervandaag is also mentioned on one website as his donkey, other, mainly Belgian websites, mention it as his horse. 
About the name of the donkey/horse of Sinterklaas, I've seen the series and yes in Belgium it's quite commonly known a Slechtweervandaag. Tough I think the name is slowly decreasing in usage. As no new shows in Belgium were made ever since (with a decent influence, I can't recall any) and a lot of kids watched Dutch shows. So names like Amerigo are also used over here. There's no real name tough, just names from tv shows wich are used and later slowly fade away. Also I always tough it was horse, a type called a schimmel. It's a grey horse with white spots. I know Slechtweervandaag and Amerigo were.
Slechtweervandaag was the name of his horse in a Belgian TV show back in 92/93. It remained that way in the minds of people since... (Anonymous - 04:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sinterklaas 

message: About the fact that he comes form Spain is because, I believe (will check it later), that however he lived in Turkey, he was later buried in Rome Italy. Than because of the Spanish influence people started to be mistaken about this. And Spain became quickly Sint Niklaas' home.
:I have always been taught people tell he's from Spain because back in the day people's knowledge of geography was quite limited. As people were uneducated, the most distant country (from the Netherlands) beyond France was Spain. DWizzy 11:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Italy was ruled by Spain but not during the 11th century. At this time, in 1035, the Kingdom of Aragon was established during the Christian Reconquest of Spain (which ended up in 1492). The Kingdom of Aragon along with the Kingdom of Castile will form the Kingdom of Spain under the "Catholic Monarchs" rules. The expansion of the Aragonese Crown will include initially the kingdoms of Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca and the counties of Catalonia, Cerdanya, Roussillon and the lordship of Montpellier. And since the 13th century also began the proyection of the Aragonese Crown through the Mediterranean... Corsica, Sardinia, duchies of Athens and Neopatria until 1388, and the kingdoms of Sicily (from 13th century) and Naples (from 15th century). Bari belonged to this kingdom until the 18th century. The Spanish Netherlands were ruled since Charles V (the only grandson of the "Catholic Monarchs"), was elected Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 1519 until the Treaty of Utrecht 1713, and is during this time when there is such influence coming from Bari, a city in the Spanish Kingdom of Naples.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.235.168.115 (talk) 00:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

text: As far as I know mandarin oranges belong to Sint Maarten. --Ajv39 (talk) 12:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "Belong" would seem a little strict. They just happen to be a common thing in the last months of the year, rather than being specifically connected to a particular holiday.Drabkikker (talk) 13:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Coming from Spain

message: In many other countries, Saint Nicholas has helpers who look like devil-like, covered in soot, and who carry rods to beat children and sacks to abduct them in if they misbehave. This is a way of disciplining the children. If the saint's servant or slave looked sooty according to the earlier tradition, it must have been a relatively small step to turn him into a "moorish" / negro servant or slave. The Dutch involvement in the slave trade and racist "darky" stereoptypes also clearly played a role in the development of "Zwarte Piet". 
Traditionally, Zwarte Piet was not only threatening but also childlike, generous (he also gives presents), playful and acrobatic (perfoming stunts on the roof while delivering presnents). He thus matched a racist "negro" stereotype. See also the article blackface on darky iconography. "Zwarte Piet" is also mentioned there.
*colourful Moorish dresses, dating back two centuries. 
*:The Moorish is doubtful. Using the dutch language wiki as a source, there are several possible origins of Zwarte Piet: a) captured devil b) Italian chimneysweeper c) Moorish helper d) black slave boy bought into freedom by sinterklaas
*:The same sentence doesnt make clear what dates back two centuries: the black piet or his dress. The Dutch wiki calls it early 17th century looking cloths. That's not 2 centuries.  I am not an expert in clothes, so I dare not estimate.
*** It is if you take the Zwarte Piet is a 19th century creation view.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.53.234.50 (talk) 15:56, August 25, 2007 (UTC) 
*his origins were in the devil figure 
*: see above.
*Traditionally Saint Nicholas only had one helper, whose name varied wildly. "Piet(er)" the name in use now can be traced back to a book from 1891
*:According to http://www.kinderboekenwereld.nl/pages/specials/sinterklaas-van-a-tot-z.php Black Pete appears in Sinterklaas boeken from the middle of the 19th century. The book "`St. Nicolaas Geschenk voor Neerlands Jeugd´(1800)" doesnt mention Black Pete. The book mentioned there with the first mention of Black eter is by Schenkman, ca. 1845. The same site mentions the 1891 book as the first book where the name "Zwarte piet" is mentioned, I have added this as a reference.
When I was a child, the Black Peters were also taught to me as Moors from Spain. It can also be found in many childrens books about Sinterklaas. Probably because it were the only black people (the then Habsburgian/Spanish) Netherlands knew before the Age of Discovery, (and maybe on inland Dutch soil quite a while longer). 
Note that Black Peter was toned down because of two different political correctnesses. Not only discrimination, but already earlier because it wasn't deemed enlightened anymore to scare the children so much. (Mothers used to scare children for weeks that they would be taken to Spain by Santa and/or get no presents)
88.159.74.100 (talk) 08:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zwarte Piet 

message: *Missing: the packaging of presents as surprise
*It's not just a family affair, it's also celebrated at sport-clubs, etc.
*Typical presents include .... Just minor presnts, mainly sweets, are mentioned here. Many families use it as an occasion to give larger presents, comparible with birthday presents.
*The sentence But the presents may be too big or too man can not be well unerstood from the previous part, as only small presents are mentioned in the preceding paragraph.
TeunSpaans 17:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pakjesavond

message: In the text it says that the Christmas gift-giving is a bigger occasion than Sinterklaas gift-giving, but it's not. On the contrary, The santa claus is given hardly any attention.
I live in Belgium and Christmas always was bigger when I was younger. But I never believed in Santa Claus but I did believe in Sinterklaas  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.241.214.123 (talk) 19:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Christmas?

message: Someone added a template suggesting moving this article to the Santa Claus article. But there is no discussion here, so I removed the template. In stead I suggest moving Santa Claus to a subsection of this article. After all, Sinterklaas is the original. Of course I'm joking, but the suggestion was ridiculous, so I feel I should ridicule it back. :) DirkvdM 18:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I am 100% in agreement with you here. Ridiculous merger proposal. - Jvhertum 20:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is User:The Wild Falcon who proposed it the 2nd time and perhaps the first. Should he do it the third time I'm advocating for a warning or a ban. --Stalfur 11:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's a bit much, isn't it? Jvhertum 13:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not when he adds the template to an article repeatedly without giving any reason for why it should be moved. Then it is clearly spam or defacement of the article. --Stalfur 16:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Santa Claus?? 

message: It's been in the news during the past few years: some people think the concept of Sinterklaas and his zwarte pieten reminds us too much of a history of slavery and the Dutch colonial past. A rich white man with a band of black followers. The commotion was minor though, and I'm not sure if there'd be reliable sources on this anywhere. --MooNFisH 21:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Recent' commotion? 

message: Is use usefull to put the arrivals from Sinterklaas in the Netherlands in this article?
year         	place
1952 t/m 1959	Amsterdam
1960         	Rotterdam
1961 t/m 1963	Amsterdam
1964         	Hoorn
1965         	Leeuwarden *
1966         	Harlingen *
1967         	Medemblik *
1968         	Veere *
1969         	Enkhuizen *
1970         	Volendam *
1971         	Monnickendam *
1972         	Willemstad *
1973         	Hoorn *
1974         	Enkhuizen *
1975         	Vlissingen *
1976         	Scheveningen *
year	place
1977	Muiden *
1978	Medemblik *
1979	Rotterdam *
1980	Veere *
1981	Hindeloopen *
1982	Marken *
1983	Hoorn *
1984	Terschelling *
1985	Heusden *
1986	Zutphen **
1987	Schoonhoven **
1988	Zierikzee **
1989	Gorinchem **
1990	Elburg **
1991	Hindeloopen **
1992	Dordrecht **
year	place
1993	Ravenstein **
1994	Monnickendam **
1995	Doesburg **
1996	Harlingen **
1997	Enkhuizen **
1998	Wijk bij Duurstede **
1999	Hattem **
2000	Woudrichem **
2001	Maastricht **
2002	Zaltbommel **
2003	Zwolle **
2004	Alkmaar **
2005	Sneek **
2006	Middelburg **
2007	Kampen **
no stars = Jan Gajentaan  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mweites (talk • contribs) 18:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  arrivals 

message: "It is also celebrated to a lesser extent in parts of France (North, Alsace, Lorraine), as well as in Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, the Czech Republic and the town of Trieste in Italy. "
: St Nicholas is the patron Saint of Lorraine.  6th December was more important than the Christmas until recently.  Not sure the "lesser extent" would apply there.
I added now the information about Italy but, more generally, I am not sure what "lesser extent" means in the interpretation of authors and, more importantly, of readers. In my hometown, Trieste, San Nicolò is considered quite importantly by citizens and children in particular who receive gifts from him. It was more important than Santa Claus and only in the last decades this changed a bit. Morbin (talk) 10:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Partial view, 2 

message: The picture of Sinterklaas is that of the dutch 'version'. Isn't there any picture of the flemish 'version'? It would be nice to let it see what difference there is.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bvman (talk • contribs) 19:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only one picture? 

message: :When I was young, we didn't have pakjesavond for the smallest of the children. Instead, we would put out a children's chair near the fireplace, instead of a shoe, on the early evening of the 5th, before going to bed. Next morning  (sixth of december) the chair would be full of presents (and also underneath it). I don't know however if this was an invention of my parents or if other little children did this as well. We lived in the Northwest of Holland.--Satrughna (talk) 17:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  stoeltje zetten 

message: When reading the wiki I have noticed someone had changed the text in an insulting way. Among others inserted the f-word multiple times. I have removed/changed these texts, but it is possible I missed somes texts or my change was not completely correct.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by EJYW (talk • contribs) 11:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of insulting text 

message: Sinterklaas is hundreds years old and the section only wrote that Sinterklaas continued during WWII. I think this is not notable and clearly ndue weight. Andries (talk) 18:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The object of this article is to inform about Sinterklaas. It is irrelevant that the story about Sinterklaas during WWII (which is far too long) "provides a window into a crucial period in Dutch history." Andries (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Section about WWII

message: Historically saints like Nicholas have a name day, and the name day of St. Nicholas was indeed december 6. However in the netherlands the veneration of the name day's of saints has died out, and most people don't even know what a name day is. So "Sinteklaas day" is always referred to as his birthday, never as his name day.  Mahjongg (talk) 10:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name day 

message: What about merging this article with Saint Nicholas? --Flederlander aka Patio (talk) 11:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge candidate #daretoask 

message: I'm under the impression the article suggests that St Nick's day is only a tradition in the Dutch-speaking Belgium. Though it's not ; Saint Nicolas is very popular in Wallonia too, and the traditions attached to his day are really similar to the ones in Flanders. -- LelalMekha  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.201.126.113 (talk) 18:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not only Dutch-speaking 

message: Dear Walter, still puzzled by your claim Sinterklaas is celebrated by Northern Germans, never saw any proof of that in german TV broadcastings (like the ZDF). Or do you mean the german speaking population of flanders? That would make much more sense, but I cannot read that back in your edit.  17:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No. My relatives in and around Hamburg have spoken of it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read the [german sinterklaas article], and it doesn't say anything about sinterklaas being celebrated in north Germany, but interestingly it did say that it is celebrated in a different form on some of the Frisian Islands not belonging to the netherlands. Its not exactly sinterklaas, but "Sunderklaas" but its related nevertheless. When googling for for "sinterklaas hamburg" I only find a club of Dutch expatriates who celebrate Sinterklaas in Hamburg. Do you have any references that regular germans celebrate Sinterklaas in Hamburg (or anywhere else in Germany) ? Mahjongg (talk) 17:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  since there is no reference, it should be removed, but don't use Wikipedia as a reference. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

text: I have removed the reference to (Ouwe) Sunderklaas. This feast, as well as related feasts like Klaasohm on Borkum, Opkleden on Vlieland, and Sunderklazen on Ameland, are not the same as Sinterklaas but distinct traditions. See e.g.  and  - Jvhertum (talk) 10:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, on further examination of the evidence sunderklaas has nothing directly to do with Sinterklaas even though the similar names. Mahjongg (talk) 15:02, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sinterklaas in north (west) Germany  

message: In response to the repeated removal of this citation, I'm adding this topic here. First off, the article contains several citations from much more questionable sources. Citation # 7 leads to a blog called Female Gamers. # 9 and # 11 are also blogs. That aside, I Am Expat is not a blog and those who have removed the citation have not offered much in the way of an argument explaining why the source is not valid. The comments made thus far amount to "it's a blog" (it isn't) and "there's no editorial oversight (actually, there is). The publication does contain a blog but, then again, so does The New York Times. Perhaps this is why they're confused? The article in question is not a blog post. Manzanitasyndrome (talk) 12:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Might be but besides the obvious fact that the link isn't a reliable source as stated by multiple persons the "conclusions" of this publication also present a very minority POV without enough editorial oversight, and citing it gives undue weight to this POV. Besides you have put the link back again without finishing this discussion, which is very bad form. Mahjongg (talk) 13:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here's the thing: these "multiple persons" are offering what amounts to knee-jerk reactions to the citation. They offer no proof of their claims. It's pretty obvious that the site in question is not a blog, although they continue to call it such. They're writing it off without properly investigating it. If my behavior is bad form, well, theirs is a bit deplorable, especially given the fact that this article contains other blog posts. Manzanitasyndrome (talk) 10:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Your shit got canned.  PWNT 2602:306:BC83:DC10:B841:65CF:1532:D3A0 (talk) 23:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: I Am Expat Citation

message: 'Traditionally, some goods (often carrots and straw) are "sacrificed" to Sinterklaas and his horse, much like the sacrifices of the pagan Germanics.'  Leaving food out is hardly 'sacrifice', he even had to put it in quotes because it is such a stretch.  In addition there is no academic support cited for this food-leaving being rooted in pagan sacrifice, so I will be removing it.  The entire first section smacks of neopagan straw-grasping, to be honest.  2602:306:BC83:DC10:B841:65CF:1532:D3A0 (talk) 23:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious and unsourced stuff

message: As many other before me have noticed, the name of this article suggests that Saint Nikolaus is celebrated only in the Netherlands, and only with the name of Sinterklass. I'd like the whole article to be renamed as "Saint Nikolaus' fest" or something like that, since all the names provided after are cases of linguistic distortion. [SVecchiato unlogged]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.141.2.174 (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There is already an article about Saint Nicholas and Feast of St. Nicholas. This is about the Dutch character Sinterklaas.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:11, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: New name for this article?

message: I know the wording that Sinterklaas is a 'traditional figure' probably stems out of some edit war, but to me this is way too vague. Also, it makes Sinterklaas appear as a fixed, unchangeable figure. For an alternative, the Santa Claus article: 'a mythical figure with legendary, historical and folkloric origins'. 82.217.116.224 (talk) 20:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Traditional figure' 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Goedheiligman is from Goedhylik man, modern Dutch goedhuwlijkman, good marriage man. He paid the dowry for three poor girls.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.116.112 (talk) 18:13, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't know this, but etymologiebank.nl says so too: http://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/heiligman That said, while this may be the origin, in its current form the word does translate to "good holy man". Drabkikker (talk) 11:55, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Good Holy Man 

message: Black pete (zwarte piet) is recently changed too roet piet (soot pete) i realy think this should be included  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.244.186.135 (talk) 06:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: A source would be useful for this. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  roet piet 

message: Zwarte Piet already has his own article. This one is for Sinterklaas. Section 1.2 "Zwarte Piet" is much longer and cites more sources than both section 1.1 "Sinterklaas" (the focal point of this article) and the opener for the actual Zwarte Piet article.
I'm not qualified to expound on Sinterklaas, and I don't wanna go indiscriminately deleting sentences and taking an axe to citations that people spent time carefully constructing. But section 1 reads as disjointed and imbalanced. The heading for Sinterklaas is very sparse prose in the form of a short laundry list of details, devoid of any historical context or even a specified time during which the facts applied. The Zwarte Piet heading that follows is a sprawling history of Zwarte Piet over the years, across multiple eras and locales, and even includes public opinion statistics and political implications.
The rest of the article goes into more depth on Sinterklaas but those sections are much lower on the page. I think it's right for some space to be committed to describing the Zwarte Piet racism controversy, insofar as it affects interpretation and celebration of Sinterklaas. But along with the description of Zwarte Piet himself, it should probably be just a brief summary plus any details that specifically relate to or overlap with Sinterklaas, along with a link to the proper article on Zwarte Piet. If an expert can expand the Sinterklaas section sufficiently that the whole article feels equally dense, then maybe that's better. Aminomancer (talk) 21:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  More information about Zwarte Piet than Sinterklaas on the article for Sinterklaas? 

message: I don't want to reopen the debate from above about Blackface, but is there another image we could possibly use on this page? Or is the fact that Zwarte Piet is typically portrayed by someone who is not black intrinsic to the character itself? Delukiel (talk) 17:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image