Talk:Junípero Serra

message: This article does not adhere to Wikipedia's core principle of neutrality, as it reads for the most part (I made a few edits for balance in the lead) like a long promotional brochure. Marcywinograd (talk) 15:40, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: Would someone directly involved with the writing of this article consider a better wording for this?  The religious overtones are too obvious.  Besides, for the non-religious reader it sounds plain ridiculous.
I was not involved in this but but more on mortification can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drockstroh (talk • contribs) 23:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Love of mortification?

message: Junipero Serra was not Catalan, but he was born in Mallorca Island, Balears Islands, Spain.
:According to our article on Mallorca, Catalan is the local language. It seems to me that the determining factor would be the origins of his parents. If they were also from Mallorca then it would be appropriate to simply call him "Mallorcan". But if his parents were Catalan, then the current description is probably more accurate. -Willmcw 21:16, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
*** By that criteria, all Catalans today whose parents are from Andalusia, for example, are not Catalan but Andalusian too. Junipero Serra was certainly Majorcan. It is true that the local language of Majorca is a variant of the Catalan language, but Spanish is spoken in South America and that does not make its people Spanish; French is spoken in Canada though that does not make Canadians French. The point is moot and a minor edit shall take place; this is not a place for petty political squabbles, but for facts.
****Good. Thanks for doing that. (BTW, I agree with your logic, but I think you are using the word "moot" incorrectly.  Cheers, -Willmcw 11:12, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
***** Discussion seems to have diverged from the way Catalan is used in the article. The article states that his mother tongue was Catalan. Citation Needed seems superfluous in this case. He was baptized with Catalan names (Miquel and Josep). Both Serra (father's surname) and Ferrer (mother's surname) were and still are very common names throughout the Catalan speaking parts of Spain including Mallorca. Most importantly, he was born in a very small, out of the way town in the middle of Mallorca where it is extremely unlikely that anyone spoke anything other than Mallorcan - the local dialect of Catalan.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.196.219 (talk) 21:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Catalan

message: Should Junipero Serra be Canonized after information has been brought up about him enslaving the Native Americans?
I would like to hear some opinions.Pleeeaaase!!!!!!!!!!!
- Blessed Sacrament School in Newark, Ohio
Junipero Serra "enslaved Native Americans"? Pleeeaaase!!!!!!!!!!! The worst thing he did from our modern perspective and based on evidence, not unfounded assertions, was okay corporal punishment for Native Christians who broke the rules. According to Dan Krieger, professor emeritus of History at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo thick whips of cord were used (Santa Maria Sun, Sept. 1, 2015). In other words, they were publically shamed by flogging. Capital crimes were handled by the civil authorities.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC10:6D10:226:8FF:FEDC:17C1 (talk) 00:13, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The purpose of Wikipedia is not to develop or discuss our opinions. Our aim here is to summarize verifiable information from a neutral point of view. I'd suggest that you find a forum which discusses Catholicism or Native American history. Good luck, -Willmcw 22:02, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Relevant future edit: There should be notes about the Demonization service held of Junipero Serra as performed by The_Satanic_Temple as it's highly relevant, noteworthy, and related this topichttp://laist.com/2015/10/06/satanic_temple_vs_junipero_serra.php.  I just need to find a better citation.HAILXSATANX666 (talk) 19:42, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Canonization

message: "The chapel at Mission San Juan Capistrano, ... Known proudly as 'Father Serra's Church' "
"Known proudly" by whom?
: "proudly" removed, though we still don't know who knows it as "Father Serra's Church". Dmw 14:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV? 

message: As a Spanish born man. The name given to him by his parents was Miguel José Serra Ferrer. Not Miquel Josep Serra i Ferrer as stated in the article. By checking the wikipedia of the same topic in the spanish speaking version of wikipedia the name is Miguel José Serra Ferrer.
:That's because he was born in Majorca where the native language is Majorcan Catalan, not Castillian Spanish. Also, I believe that the use of "y" between the parents surnames was still the practice when he was born, so even in Spanish it probably would have had the "y". Note: most people in Spain with the last name Ferrer are Catalan, not Spanish. Mike Dillon 01:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Junípero Serra's given name 

message: What is the title of "Fra"? I'm not familiar with this honorific and have only known Serra as "Father".Mazeau (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Fra" would be short for "Frater" (Latin: brother). In most Catholic orders, the title of brother is given to unordained members, as in Saint Jean Baptiste de la Salle's order of Christian Brothers. Ordained "priests" are generally called "Father," especially by the layity. However among the monks, ordained priests who reside within an abbey or monastery, they will call each other "Brother" Thus the appelation sticks. "Friar" is an anglicized version of the Old or Middle French pronunciation of "frère" (brother). Modern French pronounces it more like "frair". Old French pronounces it more like "frier." We recall the fabled Friar Tuck of Robin Hood tales, he was a Franciscan priest. The Order of Saint Francis, Franciscans, still robe themselves like monks although they are not relegated to monastery living. However, neither are they archdiocesan priests. They are mostly educators. But they received the appelation "Father" from lay people. Many non-archdiocesan orders have have both the unordained brothers, and the ordained priests, Fathers.--Magi Media (talk) 01:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for posting that - a nice summary of the topic.   Will Beback  talk   07:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

text: I see someone changed the misspell of Fra to Fray which is what lead to the first part of this discussion. However, everything I stated in part two stll applies. "Fray appears to be a corruption of Frère or Frater or any romance title that means "brother."--Magi Media (talk) 16:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fra Style 

message: The article is now only one sentence long.  What happened to the rest of the article?  Can someone revert it back? Fatrb38 (talk) 07:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortening of Article? 

message: If he died of a snake bite, it should be in the article - I removed the category because I couldn't find any reference in the text. Totnesmartin (talk) 20:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and I've removed the category again. We may never know for sure how Serra died, but one semi-reliable source says it was due to asthma and tuberculosis. I suggest we omit any definite cause of death until we find a truly reliable source.   Will Beback  talk   20:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably best the category is removed. Junípero Serra, pioneer colonist of California By Agnes Repplier gives a detailed account of his death in the last chapter, mentioning exacerbation of his weakness through his mortifications, a chest ailment (probably tuberculosis or the like - I've also seen it reported that he suffered from asthma) as well as trouble in his leg.  The book goes into great detail, including his reception of viaticum, but there is no mention of a snake bite.  I looked at another biography which discussed his death in detail and also had no mention of a snake. Mamalujo (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't tell quite what it says, but Junípero Serra, pioneer colonist of California By Agnes Repplier, 1933, apparently says something about being bitten by a snake and being lame the rest of this life. (I say "apparently" because it's a snippet view and I can't see all of it.) Perhaps the snakebite occurred long before his death. Junípero Serra, pioneer colonist of California By Agnes Repplier mentions a leg injury on page 84, but it doesn't mention the cause.   Will Beback  talk   20:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Snake bite? 

message: The section on "Genocide" is barely related to the life of Junipero Serra (like the statistic about the size of the Indian population in 1821 - that's almost 50 yrs after Serra's death).  It's more of a condemnation of the missions in general, or Christian evangelization in general.  It should either be connected specifically to the life of Fr. Serra or moved to a more appropriate article.  SHarold (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance 

message: The article is woefully short of material on Serra's legacy, on the beatification process, or on the modern controversies. 
*Since the 1980s nearly everything written about Serra acknowledges that he and other missionaries ushered in a period of extreme hardship and great dislocation for California Indians, and that the methods missinaries used in eighteenth-century California are no longer consistent with a modern and civilized society. Moreover, recent scholarship recognizes that...men like Serra played a significant role in the institutions and practices that brought extreme hardship and pain to native communities. 
That's from  A Companion to California History. I think we could do well by using it or other reputable reviews to summarize the modern scholarship on this subject.   Will Beback  talk   23:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said earlier, I don't have a problem with critical material sourced from works that are reliable and relatively balanced.  What I object to are sources that make fringe claims or are so highly polemical as to be unreliable. Mamalujo (talk) 18:20, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

text: This could be viewed as cherry-picking depending on your POV. Either way, it hardly makes a difference as history has judged the over-all effect. While Serra, the Missions and friars had good intentions, their application had an effect on Native Americans that could viewed as detrimental. ----moreno oso (talk) 20:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy

message: What's with the term "Father Presidente" used at least twice to describe Serra? Shouldn't it be "Padre Presidente" or "Father President" (or may be "Father Presider")? Why mix the English and Spanish? It seems contrived and touristy. Rwflammang (talk) 22:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Macaronic]] title

message: When Serra came to Monterey, California, the first Church he founded was San Carlos the Presidio chapel ( which is my church). After that the mission was relocated to Mission San Carlos Borromeo de Carmelo. They are two different Churches, but in the article, they are mixed up a couple times. -Its probably no big deal but since im from the area i thought i should mention this.
76.102.61.23 (talk) 00:57, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monterey 

message: Father Serra learned different kinds of langereges  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.228.4.251 (talk) 02:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Father Serra 

message: ===Pronunciation in Spanish===
The officials who just petitioned Pope Francis to canonize Junipero Serra pronounced his name with the soft "j" that you would expect. The only people pronouncing it with the "xu" sound seem to be the ones tripping over his name. Is there any documentation about the pronunciation of his name, because what's listed in the article seems to be incorrect, based on what we are hearing today.Trumpetrep (talk) 20:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: (I'm moving my comments about the English pronunciation to a separate section so as not to interrupt the flow of this conversation. --MelanieN (talk) 00:33, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not wrong, it is Catalan pronunciation. Catalonia, and the Balearic Islands from which Father Serra hailed, has a dual identity as Catalan and Spanish, and is bilingual. So neither pronunciation of the "J" is wrong, it's simply two different languages. Elizium23 (talk) 22:48, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't the Catalan pronunciation be inappropriate for the Castilian form of his name? Daniel the Monk (talk) 00:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

text: Update re: the English pronunciation: Maybe I should have said that all Californians pronounce it as hoo-NIP-uh-row. I just heard a back-east announcer say JUNE-i-PEAR-oh. To a Californian, that makes us shudder. I'd really like to have the article reflect the pronunciation that is used by English speakers in the state that has actually heard of him. But I realize we need to hear from more people before anything gets changed. --MelanieN (talk) 00:33, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this Pronunciation Guide for the Lectionary (Archdiocese of Chicago: Liturgy Training Publications, 2010 ), page 38, it's "hoo-NEE-pay-roh SER-uh". I think that's a reliable source. Jonathunder (talk) 01:16, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that's what we needed! --MelanieN (talk) 01:19, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: The officials who just petitioned Pope Francis to canonize Junipero Serra pronounced his name with the soft "j" that you would expect. The only people pronouncing it with the "xu" sound seem to be the ones tripping over his name. Is there any documentation about the pronunciation of his name, because what's listed in the article seems to be incorrect, based on what we are hearing today.Trumpetrep (talk) 20:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: (I'm moving my comments about the English pronunciation to a separate section so as not to interrupt the flow of this conversation. --MelanieN (talk) 00:33, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not wrong, it is Catalan pronunciation. Catalonia, and the Balearic Islands from which Father Serra hailed, has a dual identity as Catalan and Spanish, and is bilingual. So neither pronunciation of the "J" is wrong, it's simply two different languages. Elizium23 (talk) 22:48, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't the Catalan pronunciation be inappropriate for the Castilian form of his name? Daniel the Monk (talk) 00:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation in Spanish

message: Thanks for calling attention to this, Trumpetrep. The article lists two pronunciations, English and Spanish; I seem to be the only one talking about the English pronunciation so I moved it to a separate section. The article currently lists the English pronunciation as , starting with a dʒ - "as in jam". That is dead wrong. No American, of any ethnicity, pronounces his name with a J as in Jam. Americans pronounce it with an H, as hoo-NIP-uh-row. I'm guessing we need a source for this, since this is OR from me, but I think others will confirm it. --MelanieN (talk) 21:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Update re: the English pronunciation: Maybe I should have said that all Californians pronounce it as hoo-NIP-uh-row. I just heard a back-east announcer say JUNE-i-PEAR-oh. To a Californian, that makes us shudder. I'd really like to have the article reflect the pronunciation that is used by English speakers in the state that has actually heard of him. But I realize we need to hear from more people before anything gets changed. --MelanieN (talk) 00:33, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this Pronunciation Guide for the Lectionary (Archdiocese of Chicago: Liturgy Training Publications, 2010 ), page 38, it's "hoo-NEE-pay-roh SER-uh". I think that's a reliable source. Jonathunder (talk) 01:16, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that's what we needed! --MelanieN (talk) 01:19, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation in English

message: Please change covert to convert.see this line in article: The new mission lacked Indians to covert. should be: The new mission lacked Indians to convert.  
2601:602:8402:118B:0:0:0:5A94 (talk) 22:24, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Stickee (talk) 22:34, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2015 

message: The 48th citation URL has a typo. It should be http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/s_z/serra.htm, not http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/peoples_z/serra.htm. Millennial Dan (talk) 02:11, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. --MelanieN (talk) 23:16, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2015 

message: Should Junipero Serra's baptismal name be written as Miguel, or Miquel? RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 07:42, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:COMMONNAME should cover this, even though we're not discussing the article title. Consider: in articles about 15th-century westward exploration, do we write Cristoforo Colombo, Cristóbal Colón, Christophorus Columbus or Christopher Columbus? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:31, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Except he stopped using this name when he was 15, in favor of "Junipero", none of them are the common name, but the "Early life" section needs to use something other than Junipero.  (I suppose we could refer to him as "Serra" throughout?). power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:03, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Summoned by bot. What if we included both since reliable sources use both spellings? Meatsgains(talk) 01:24, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miguel or Miquel? 

message: The section Junípero Serra#King Carlos expels the Jesuits does not seem, from its present text, to have any connection whatsoever to Serra personally: it is more relevant to the history of Roman Catholic Missions in California generally. As the article notes, despite his connection to the Inquisition, Serra was a Franciscan, not a Jesuit, unless I missed something. Since this is an article about Serra and not the Missions in general, can someone make that section relevant, or should the whole section simply be deleted or transferred elsewhere? If transferred, to where? —KGF0 ( T | C ) 16:32, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of Jesuit expulsion? 

message: Help is needed to add references to the article to support these points. Should it be "August 28" everywhere outside the United States, where it is honored on July 1?   Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 02:28, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serra's feast day is celebrated on August 26 in Mexico? He is considered to be the patron saint of California, Hispanic Americans, and religious vocations?  [citations needed] 

message: I suggest that the following additions be made:
:At different times, the State of California had two different State office buildings named in honor of Junipero Serra that are/were located in Downtown Los Angeles.  The first building was built at 107 South Broadway and was occupied from 1960 to 1999. As a result of the 1994 Northridge earthquake, the building was determined to be too costly to retrofit to comply with new earthquake resistant standards and a replacement building was needed.
:In 1995, the State of California purchased the vacant Broadway Department Store Downtown Building at 320 West Fourth Street, and moved into the building in 1999 after extensive renovations.  The building was subsequently been rename the Junipero Serra State Office Building (1999-).
Notes:
For needed citations for the first building, please look at archived Los Angeles Times articles that are suggested at the Pacific Coast Architecture Database website. The Water and Power Associates website has additional descriptions on Junipero Serra State Office Building #1 (1960-1999).
For needed citations for the second building, please use Google or look at the The Broadway#Downtown flagship store section for suggestions.
There might be enough information available to expand this into several paragraphs and create a new state office buildings section.
-- 96.64.134.61 (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The person who requested to provide the references rather than passing the task of finding  ~ Amkgp 💬 11:32, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2020 (Junipero Serra State Office Buildings) 

message: This article seems to contain a number of organizational and bias issues, which I propose we work on resolving. The most sensitive issue is, of course, those parts of the article engaging with his role in the Mission system. This article needs to be neither a systematic defense of Serra’s character nor a deliberate attack upon it. We need only let history speak for itself. To address the previously raised opinion that current morality cannot be applied to past examples, I reiterate that we as editors do have a responsibility to report in a neutral way upon the subjects of our articles. However, this means that we also have a responsibility not to defend Serra. To argue that Serra cannot be criticized for things that were widely accepted by Europeans at the time not only falls into the trap of moral relativism, but elides the fact that Missionization was widely unpopular among Indigenous Californians subjected to it. Such an assertion does not seem to me to be controversial in modern scholarship, and off the top of my head I can cite as evidence of this displeasure the regular confinement of and frequent attempted escapes by “neophytes”, as well as occasional revolts and individual rebellions. In any case, I like the way some of the “controversy” section is ordered, with representations of multiple viewpoints that are put in reasonably balanced dialogue with each other. I would very much like to see the same structure applied to the section on canonization, which currently contains only viewpoints from those who support it. As far as organization goes, I think that I would be good to have canonization as its own section, rather than a subsidiary of the “Treatment of Native Californians Section”. I also think that the placing of most of the content of this section under the label “Modern Controversy” implies that the activities he was involved in were uncontroversial at the time (and again, the issue is not whether it was uncontroversial among Europeans, but that it was generally opposed by Indigenous Californians at the time). There are, of course, many other parts of the article that could do with review, but I think that this will constitute a good start to the discussion. Pliny the Elderberry (talk) 04:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addressing Bias and Organizational Issues 

message: zr4fx5 72.219.94.80 (talk) 20:51, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 21:17, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2021 

message: Can we add the Representación to Wikisource? It is in the public domain, having been written in 1773. WaterAnonn (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add the Representación to Wikisource 

message: The "Controversy over the missions Serra operated" states that Mark A. Noll is a professor at Wheaton College. While he was faculty at Wheaton for many years, he moved to Notre Dame in 2006 and seems to still be there. Citation: https://history.nd.edu/people/mark-noll/ Noseybookworm (talk) 18:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 02:22, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2023