Talk:Traditionalist Catholicism/Archive 1

message: ==October==
===Chinese Catholicism===
I am wondering about the inclusion of info on "Chinese Catholicism." I've made edits to that but, not wanting to get into a "revert war," thought I'd explain why I think that that particular bit of information is out of place and hope the author of that paragraph might see my point - or argue me out of mine.
The official so-called "Catholic" Church in China -- i.e., the State- recognized Church -- isn't Catholic at all. They don't recognize the papacy, don't (as the editor affirms) recognize Vatican II as a Council convened by a legitimate Pope (not because of sedevacantism, but because they deny the papacy itself), etc. They are no more "Roman Catholic" than Falwell is Catholic.
In other words, saying "Not all groups which reject Vatican II are considered traditional Catholic" and then going on to talk about a State-sponsored, Communist, pro-abort "Church" that denies the papacy would be like saying, "Not all groups which reject Vatican II are considered traditional Catholic. Most notably, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Benny Hinn, reject all pronouncements by the Vatican." To me, it makes no sense to include that information because it's -- well, it's like, "No duh. Why wouldn't they? They're not Catholic, so what are they doing in an article about Catholics?"  It only serves to obfuscate the issue at hand: traditional Catholicism.
The CCPA (the state-"church" in China) actively persecutes Roman Catholics, and any use of Roman Catholic liturgy by them is simply a means to get Catholics from the underground into the State "Church" where the State has control. Pope John Paul II has to name Cardinals in the real, underground Church there "in pectore" so they won't be imprisoned or killed.
For more information on the Chinese "Catholic" Patriotic Association and the real, underground Catholic Church in China, see this website: http://www.cardinalkungfoundation.org/  [USER: La Minturnesa | La Minturnesa]
:Maybe you haven't grasped the fact that wiki operates on the principle of NPOV. All the paragraph states is that usage of pre-Vatican II liturgy does not automatically indicate adherence to what the article calls Traditional Catholicism but in the Chinese case means something different. It is 100% factual and 100% correct. You may regard the official state Catholic Church in China as a true branch of Catholicism, but that is simply your POV. The article does not express an opinion on the validity or otherwise of this institution, merely states it exists, it adheres to liturgy that could be identified as Traditional Catholic but it isn't part of that branch of Catholicism. Stop deleting a factual paragraph to push your agenda. Your attempts will simply be reverted every time. FearÉIREANN 20:59, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but your "facts" are actually opinions. We here respect your right to disagree with the Catholic Church; yet we are disappointed with your angry attacks on it. However, the point here is that you are continually violating Wikipedia NPOV policy by pushing a conservative fundamentalist anti-Catholic religious agenda as "fact".  These opinions are not "facts", and you aren't fooling us. RK 21:48, Nov 2, 2003 (UTC)
You are expressing a POV. Whether it is the right POV or the wrong POV is immaterial. Wikipedia is based on NPOV. In China a religion exists which claims membership of catholicism but has broken with the pope. You may think that having broken with the papacy and having been set up by the state it is not a real Catholic Church, but that is your opinion. An encyclopædia based on NPOV cannot make that presumption. Please understand what NPOV is and how it works. If it has many of the trappings of catholicism (liturgy pre-Vatican II style, hierarchy, ordained celibate clergy, etc), calls itself catholicism but has some deviations (ie, the papacy and the reforms of Vatican II) wikipedia cannot simply sit in judgment and rule on whether or not it is catholic. That is based on a subjective judgment call, and while many others inside and outside Catholicism can make such a call, a neutral encyclopædia cannot, anymore than it can rule on whether the enthronement of the new Anglican bishop in New Hamsphire is valid or invalid, whether George Bush is a good or a bad president, etc etc. All it can do is report views of others who make judgments. In this article, it is simply pointed out that simple adherence to pre-Vatican II liturgy is in itself not evidence that a group belongs to the 'Traditional Catholic' category, one example being quoted being that of a state-organised group in China which calls itself Catholic but which has not implemented Vatican II. The article clearly and unambiguously states who this group is. Stop mis-representing the contents of the article, claiming it says things it clearly doesn't and demanding that wikipedia do something that it by definition cannot do, namely express a POV on the status of that group. (BTW I don't regard that organisation as a valid branch of Catholicism either, but I don't have the right, and nor do you, to demand that opinion be treated as fact when others hold contrary opinions they too believe to be facts.) FearÉIREANN 23:52, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: 2003

message: ===Chinese Catholicism===
I am wondering about the inclusion of info on "Chinese Catholicism." I've made edits to that but, not wanting to get into a "revert war," thought I'd explain why I think that that particular bit of information is out of place and hope the author of that paragraph might see my point - or argue me out of mine.
The official so-called "Catholic" Church in China -- i.e., the State- recognized Church -- isn't Catholic at all. They don't recognize the papacy, don't (as the editor affirms) recognize Vatican II as a Council convened by a legitimate Pope (not because of sedevacantism, but because they deny the papacy itself), etc. They are no more "Roman Catholic" than Falwell is Catholic.
In other words, saying "Not all groups which reject Vatican II are considered traditional Catholic" and then going on to talk about a State-sponsored, Communist, pro-abort "Church" that denies the papacy would be like saying, "Not all groups which reject Vatican II are considered traditional Catholic. Most notably, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Benny Hinn, reject all pronouncements by the Vatican." To me, it makes no sense to include that information because it's -- well, it's like, "No duh. Why wouldn't they? They're not Catholic, so what are they doing in an article about Catholics?"  It only serves to obfuscate the issue at hand: traditional Catholicism.
The CCPA (the state-"church" in China) actively persecutes Roman Catholics, and any use of Roman Catholic liturgy by them is simply a means to get Catholics from the underground into the State "Church" where the State has control. Pope John Paul II has to name Cardinals in the real, underground Church there "in pectore" so they won't be imprisoned or killed.
For more information on the Chinese "Catholic" Patriotic Association and the real, underground Catholic Church in China, see this website: http://www.cardinalkungfoundation.org/  [USER: La Minturnesa | La Minturnesa]
:Maybe you haven't grasped the fact that wiki operates on the principle of NPOV. All the paragraph states is that usage of pre-Vatican II liturgy does not automatically indicate adherence to what the article calls Traditional Catholicism but in the Chinese case means something different. It is 100% factual and 100% correct. You may regard the official state Catholic Church in China as a true branch of Catholicism, but that is simply your POV. The article does not express an opinion on the validity or otherwise of this institution, merely states it exists, it adheres to liturgy that could be identified as Traditional Catholic but it isn't part of that branch of Catholicism. Stop deleting a factual paragraph to push your agenda. Your attempts will simply be reverted every time. FearÉIREANN 20:59, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but your "facts" are actually opinions. We here respect your right to disagree with the Catholic Church; yet we are disappointed with your angry attacks on it. However, the point here is that you are continually violating Wikipedia NPOV policy by pushing a conservative fundamentalist anti-Catholic religious agenda as "fact".  These opinions are not "facts", and you aren't fooling us. RK 21:48, Nov 2, 2003 (UTC)
You are expressing a POV. Whether it is the right POV or the wrong POV is immaterial. Wikipedia is based on NPOV. In China a religion exists which claims membership of catholicism but has broken with the pope. You may think that having broken with the papacy and having been set up by the state it is not a real Catholic Church, but that is your opinion. An encyclopædia based on NPOV cannot make that presumption. Please understand what NPOV is and how it works. If it has many of the trappings of catholicism (liturgy pre-Vatican II style, hierarchy, ordained celibate clergy, etc), calls itself catholicism but has some deviations (ie, the papacy and the reforms of Vatican II) wikipedia cannot simply sit in judgment and rule on whether or not it is catholic. That is based on a subjective judgment call, and while many others inside and outside Catholicism can make such a call, a neutral encyclopædia cannot, anymore than it can rule on whether the enthronement of the new Anglican bishop in New Hamsphire is valid or invalid, whether George Bush is a good or a bad president, etc etc. All it can do is report views of others who make judgments. In this article, it is simply pointed out that simple adherence to pre-Vatican II liturgy is in itself not evidence that a group belongs to the 'Traditional Catholic' category, one example being quoted being that of a state-organised group in China which calls itself Catholic but which has not implemented Vatican II. The article clearly and unambiguously states who this group is. Stop mis-representing the contents of the article, claiming it says things it clearly doesn't and demanding that wikipedia do something that it by definition cannot do, namely express a POV on the status of that group. (BTW I don't regard that organisation as a valid branch of Catholicism either, but I don't have the right, and nor do you, to demand that opinion be treated as fact when others hold contrary opinions they too believe to be facts.) FearÉIREANN 23:52, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: October

message: I am wondering about the inclusion of info on "Chinese Catholicism." I've made edits to that but, not wanting to get into a "revert war," thought I'd explain why I think that that particular bit of information is out of place and hope the author of that paragraph might see my point - or argue me out of mine.
The official so-called "Catholic" Church in China -- i.e., the State- recognized Church -- isn't Catholic at all. They don't recognize the papacy, don't (as the editor affirms) recognize Vatican II as a Council convened by a legitimate Pope (not because of sedevacantism, but because they deny the papacy itself), etc. They are no more "Roman Catholic" than Falwell is Catholic.
In other words, saying "Not all groups which reject Vatican II are considered traditional Catholic" and then going on to talk about a State-sponsored, Communist, pro-abort "Church" that denies the papacy would be like saying, "Not all groups which reject Vatican II are considered traditional Catholic. Most notably, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Benny Hinn, reject all pronouncements by the Vatican." To me, it makes no sense to include that information because it's -- well, it's like, "No duh. Why wouldn't they? They're not Catholic, so what are they doing in an article about Catholics?"  It only serves to obfuscate the issue at hand: traditional Catholicism.
The CCPA (the state-"church" in China) actively persecutes Roman Catholics, and any use of Roman Catholic liturgy by them is simply a means to get Catholics from the underground into the State "Church" where the State has control. Pope John Paul II has to name Cardinals in the real, underground Church there "in pectore" so they won't be imprisoned or killed.
For more information on the Chinese "Catholic" Patriotic Association and the real, underground Catholic Church in China, see this website: http://www.cardinalkungfoundation.org/  [USER: La Minturnesa | La Minturnesa]
:Maybe you haven't grasped the fact that wiki operates on the principle of NPOV. All the paragraph states is that usage of pre-Vatican II liturgy does not automatically indicate adherence to what the article calls Traditional Catholicism but in the Chinese case means something different. It is 100% factual and 100% correct. You may regard the official state Catholic Church in China as a true branch of Catholicism, but that is simply your POV. The article does not express an opinion on the validity or otherwise of this institution, merely states it exists, it adheres to liturgy that could be identified as Traditional Catholic but it isn't part of that branch of Catholicism. Stop deleting a factual paragraph to push your agenda. Your attempts will simply be reverted every time. FearÉIREANN 20:59, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but your "facts" are actually opinions. We here respect your right to disagree with the Catholic Church; yet we are disappointed with your angry attacks on it. However, the point here is that you are continually violating Wikipedia NPOV policy by pushing a conservative fundamentalist anti-Catholic religious agenda as "fact".  These opinions are not "facts", and you aren't fooling us. RK 21:48, Nov 2, 2003 (UTC)
You are expressing a POV. Whether it is the right POV or the wrong POV is immaterial. Wikipedia is based on NPOV. In China a religion exists which claims membership of catholicism but has broken with the pope. You may think that having broken with the papacy and having been set up by the state it is not a real Catholic Church, but that is your opinion. An encyclopædia based on NPOV cannot make that presumption. Please understand what NPOV is and how it works. If it has many of the trappings of catholicism (liturgy pre-Vatican II style, hierarchy, ordained celibate clergy, etc), calls itself catholicism but has some deviations (ie, the papacy and the reforms of Vatican II) wikipedia cannot simply sit in judgment and rule on whether or not it is catholic. That is based on a subjective judgment call, and while many others inside and outside Catholicism can make such a call, a neutral encyclopædia cannot, anymore than it can rule on whether the enthronement of the new Anglican bishop in New Hamsphire is valid or invalid, whether George Bush is a good or a bad president, etc etc. All it can do is report views of others who make judgments. In this article, it is simply pointed out that simple adherence to pre-Vatican II liturgy is in itself not evidence that a group belongs to the 'Traditional Catholic' category, one example being quoted being that of a state-organised group in China which calls itself Catholic but which has not implemented Vatican II. The article clearly and unambiguously states who this group is. Stop mis-representing the contents of the article, claiming it says things it clearly doesn't and demanding that wikipedia do something that it by definition cannot do, namely express a POV on the status of that group. (BTW I don't regard that organisation as a valid branch of Catholicism either, but I don't have the right, and nor do you, to demand that opinion be treated as fact when others hold contrary opinions they too believe to be facts.) FearÉIREANN 23:52, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Chinese Catholicism

message: ===Recognition of the pope===
I'm just one voice in the crowd, but I'd argue that the traditional Catholics are the ones who recognize the Pope and obey him as the Vicar of Christ, and that the so-called "Traditional Catholics" who defy the Pope's teachings or deny his valid election should be called "reactionary Catholics" or "rebellious Catholics."
:Iceberg3k 19:18, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
It is a fair point. However these are the generally used terms. They may be inaccurate IMHO and in yours but we don't decide these things. We simply have to write an NPOV article explaining the perspectives of those who hold these views and those who are critical of them, while pointing out where the majority opinion is. What we can't do, even if the anonymous user above won't accept it, is to insist categorically through use of language that one side is of course right and one side by definition  wrong and imply as fact that one side, the majority, is wrong and are all heretics. That is a POV, and here we don't do POV. FearÉIREANN
Reverting to remove POVing this article and turning it into pro-Traditional Catholic propaganda. I've also cut and pasted the NPOV edits that had been subsequently made by another anonymous user so that they are not lost. His or her work should not be lost by the determination of one pro-Traditional Catholic user to highjack this page and propagandise it. FearÉIREANN 05:00, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: February

message: I'm just one voice in the crowd, but I'd argue that the traditional Catholics are the ones who recognize the Pope and obey him as the Vicar of Christ, and that the so-called "Traditional Catholics" who defy the Pope's teachings or deny his valid election should be called "reactionary Catholics" or "rebellious Catholics."
:Iceberg3k 19:18, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
It is a fair point. However these are the generally used terms. They may be inaccurate IMHO and in yours but we don't decide these things. We simply have to write an NPOV article explaining the perspectives of those who hold these views and those who are critical of them, while pointing out where the majority opinion is. What we can't do, even if the anonymous user above won't accept it, is to insist categorically through use of language that one side is of course right and one side by definition  wrong and imply as fact that one side, the majority, is wrong and are all heretics. That is a POV, and here we don't do POV. FearÉIREANN
Reverting to remove POVing this article and turning it into pro-Traditional Catholic propaganda. I've also cut and pasted the NPOV edits that had been subsequently made by another anonymous user so that they are not lost. His or her work should not be lost by the determination of one pro-Traditional Catholic user to highjack this page and propagandise it. FearÉIREANN 05:00, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recognition of the pope

message: ===Accuracy===
I don't know about the NPOV issues, but I think factually this article needs a lot of work.  "Traditional" can mean simply a preference for traditional forms or devotions, something which is entirely compatible with being 100% in line with being "with Peter". (Ambrose of Milan  "It is to Peter that he says: You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church." (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 A.D. 389))  There is nothing inherent in being traditional or conservative as they are usually used in Catholic circles that suggest being upset w/vatican ii in any way.  They maybe upset with some ways Vatican II has been interpreted, but they have their own rival school of interpretation in which vativan II is still very important and valued.--Samuel J. Howard 16:23, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I've moved it to "Traditionalist Catholic" this makes far more sense.  To call one very small group "traditional" is odd considering that even the most liberal catholics view the Catholic church as depending dually on Tradition and Scripture.  This is in line with the emerging use adjectives vs. -ist's for describing religious/ideological movements.  Compare to calling radical militant islam Islamist, rather than Islamism.--Samuel J. Howard 16:31, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
===Renaming Appropriate?===
Well,the way Jtdirl carries on about the True Catholic Church being correctly called by its preferred deliberately-making-the-person-referring-seem-to-endorse-them-over-Rome orthography of "true Catholic Church" I think you may be in for a grilling on what these people call themselves.Does the typical linked TrCath website prefer "Traditional Catholic" or "Traditionalist Catholic"?--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 01:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well,User:Jtdirl practically goes into raging fits telling me that ONLY what people call themselves is relevant.See Talk:True Catholic Church and our respective user talk pages.--Louis E./12.144.5.2 05:15, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: You say the name claimed by the Pulvermacherites is "not disputed",I see it as being almost universally dismissed out of hand.In any case,you said that names people claimed had to be used if not disputed.So where do you stand on this article?--Louis E./12.144.5.2 21:46, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: April

message: Well,the way Jtdirl carries on about the True Catholic Church being correctly called by its preferred deliberately-making-the-person-referring-seem-to-endorse-them-over-Rome orthography of "true Catholic Church" I think you may be in for a grilling on what these people call themselves.Does the typical linked TrCath website prefer "Traditional Catholic" or "Traditionalist Catholic"?--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 01:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well,User:Jtdirl practically goes into raging fits telling me that ONLY what people call themselves is relevant.See Talk:True Catholic Church and our respective user talk pages.--Louis E./12.144.5.2 05:15, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: You say the name claimed by the Pulvermacherites is "not disputed",I see it as being almost universally dismissed out of hand.In any case,you said that names people claimed had to be used if not disputed.So where do you stand on this article?--Louis E./12.144.5.2 21:46, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Renaming Appropriate?

message: ===Terminology debate===
Your (Jtdirl's) claim about the use of the term "novus ordo mass" also by its defenders is utterly baseless. You so far were not able to provide one single reference that the term "novus ordo mass" is used also by its defenders let alone by the Vatican.
The term "novus ordo mass" is never used by the Vatican, and I don't know of single quote where a theologian or bishop in union with Rome would use such a term. The catholic belief is that there is only one mass celebrated since apostolic times. What changed is the order of mass (Latin: ordo missae) not the mass. For this reason the term "novus ordo mass" is actually offensive for a catholic. I don't know how you can claim that neutralizing an offensive term (just indicating who might use it, not removing it) could be POV. To speak of the mass in the catholic church today as a novo ordo mass is definitely not neutral. Why do you insist on this non-neutral use of language?
And could you be so kind, before changing things back again to provide at least one example of a reliable source where somebody knowing theology and in union with Rome actually calls the mass as celebrated today a novus ordo mass?
----
According to the Catholic Church, Novo Ordo is CORRECT. see talk page. Reverted. FearÉIREANN 09:02 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
----
#The Catholic Church knows Latin better.
#Again (the fourth time), the question is not about "novus ordo" (as in novus ordo missae = new order of mass) but about "novus ordo mass" or "new order mass".
#If you want to tell us that something is "according to the Catholic Church" such and such you have to provide authorative teaching.
----
I spoke to the Dublin Diocesian Press Office about this issue recently (while I was checking some facts for another article). They said it is perfectly correct term to use. I was on to the Vatican Press Office on Thursday about something unrelated to wiki (I am working on something on the RC church right now, and in particular to do with marian apparitions). I mentioned this issue and they said "it is an often used and perfectly correct term." And Tridentine Mass is widely and universally used, including by a Vatican Press Release which I received four months ago in which they used it, explaining how permission has on occasion been given "for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in preference to the celebration of the Novus Ordo Missæ in latin". But then I knew that both terms are perfectly acceptable and not in any possible way seen as POV. But your attempts to suggest they are POV when they are clearly not is unambiguously POV. So please stop doing so. FearÉIREANN 03:20 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
If it was "an often used and perfectly correct term" it should be easy for you - as I kindly asked you to do - "to provide at least one example of a reliable source where somebody knowing theology and in union with Rome actually calls the mass as celebrated today a novus ordo mass. (Of course publicly and checkable.) You did not provide a single one. (And BTW a Press Office is not a source for what "according the Catholic Church" is correct. It is not at all an authorative source.) User:129.187.254.12 (since s/he never seems to want to sign their messages, I've done it for them.) 
----
The article inaccurately used the term Novus Ordo Mass when it should have read Novus Ordo revised rite of Mass. That was an inadvertent slip up. But that term is widely used in a colloquial sense and is accepted in general usage by Catholic Church, because the term Novus Ordo (or rather Novus Ordo Missæ, to give it its full name) is used as a shorthand term for the revised Missal introduced by Paul VI. 
As to Novus Ordo Missae, that is the correct version to use. For example: 
----
EXAMPLE NO 1: A CONSERVATIVE CARDINAL</br>
The Novus Ordo Missae - considering the new elements, susceptible of widely differing evaluations, which appear to be implied or taken for  granted-represents, as a whole and in detail, a striking departure from the Catholic theology  of the Holy Mass as it was formulated in Session XXIII of the Council of Trent. . . . Therefore,  we most earnestly beseech your Holiness not to deprive us--at a time of such painful divisions  and ever-increasing perils for the purity of the Faith and the unity of the Church--of the  possibility of continuing to have recourse to the fruitful integrity of that Missale Romanum of St.  Pius V, so highly praised by your Holiness and so deeply venerated and loved by the whole  Catholic Church.
The words of Cardinal Ottaviani, written to Pope Paul VI in 1967.  (BTW Ottaviani was an extreme conservative who reluctantly accepted what he called the Novus Ordo Missae). 
----
EXAMPLE NO 2: A DEFENDER OF VATICAN II
Anathemas are attached to those who disobey Papal decrees, based on Papal Authority as  affirmed by Vatican Council I. Those who refuse to recognize Papal authority on the Novus Ordo (thinking that they know tradition better) are condemned by the decrees of Vatican I, a decree that on the surface they accept.  
If anyone should say that the Roman Pontiff has merely the function of inspection or  direction but not full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not only in matters pertaining to faith and morals, but also in matters pertaining to the discipline and government of  the Church throughout the entire world, or that he has only the principal share, but not the full  plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate over all  Churches and over each individual Church, over all shepherds and all the faithful, and over each  individual one of these: let him be anathema (Vatican Council I, Dogmatic Constitution of the  Church of Christ, #3).  
The words of John N. Lupia, PhD in his A Defence of the Pauline Mass (so no need to guess where he stands, then!)
----
EXAMPLE NO 3: A NEUTRAL PRIEST WRITING ABOUT MASS
In the middle ages a "pax brede" (instrumentum pacis, or osculatorium) was used; a board which the priest and other ministers kissed and which was then passed to the congregation. Later, and up to the present day, a formal gesture of embrace was exchanged among the ministers at the altar in certain forms of the Roman Rite.  
The kiss of peace was included in the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969, but only as an option and not as a requirement.
Words of Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J. in his On The Celebration Of Mass (revised 16 March 2003)
----
EXAMPLE NO 4: A CONSERVATIVE CRITIC WHO RELUCTANTLY TOLERATED VATICAN II
First, let me clearly distance myself from any who would impugn the legitimacy of the recent pontificates, the orthodoxy of Vatican II, or the validity of the Novus Ordo as a true rite of the Mass which can be of great benefit to those who partake in it.  I am sincerely convinced that Vatican II was a gift to the Church.
Words of Michael Houser replying to the claim  by Fr. Joseph Gelineau, SJ that "The Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists.  It has been destroyed." The University Concourse Volume VIII, Issue 2 January 13, 2003
----
EXAMPLE NO 5: A PRO-VATICAN II PRIEST POINTING OUT THAT LATIN STILL COULD BE USED IN THE NOVUS ORDO
Most surprising of all, perhaps, is that the form of Mass that seems most clearly to have been intended by the Council -- one that preserves the use of the Latin language for the fixed parts of the Mass and   gives a preferential option to Gregorian Chant -- is entirely permissible within the liturgical regulations of the Novus Ordo Missae, or New Order of Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1969.
The words of Father Joseph Fessio, SJ', who is pro- the Novus Ordo, in The Mass of Vatican II in the Adoremus Bulletin Vol.IV No.8 Dec 1998/Jan 1999
----
EXAMPLE NO 6: A CRITIC OF TRADITIONAL CATHOLICS & THEIR USE OF THE TRIDENTINE MASS
Now, 22 years later, we witness a steady trickle of young Australian men moving to the United States or to Europe to study at Una Voce seminaries: to be ordained exclusively in the Tridentine Rite, with the resolute exclusion of saying any Mass in the Novus Ordo Missae promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI as a result of the liturgical changes that had been introduced by the Second Vatican Council.
Frits Albers, Ph. B. IN DEFENSE OF THE NOVUS ORDO MISSAE OF HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI (1st edition 1978, final edition 2000) 
                          
Oh and, with regard to your pre-occupation with calling the Tridentine Mass the so-called Tridentine Mass
Of course the celebrant of the "'Tridentine"' Mass should not fail in their preaching and contacts with the faithful attending such Masses to emphasize their own adherence to the legislation of the universal church and their acknowledgment of the doctrinal and juridical value of the liturgy as revisited after the Second Vatican Council. Under such conditions, it would seem unnecessary, even unduly painful, to impose further restrictions upon those who wish to attend such celebrations.
Cardinal Paul Augustine Mayer, President, Pontifical Commission, referring to Pope John Paul II's encyclical ECCLESIA DEI issued in July 1988. 
So Novus Ordo Missae is correct. And Novus Ordo Mass is an inaccurate colloquialism used to use the name of the revised liturgy with a statement that it is a Mass, something non Catholics would not necessarily know. As was said by the Vatican Press Office, it isn't strictly accurate but it is a generalised colloquialism used to describe a type of Mass with the fact that it is a Mass, something which non catholics might not otherwise know. And absolutely no-one but you thought it could possibly be offensive. FearÉIREANN 11:20 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Indeed. Novus Ordo Missae is correct. Novus Ordo mass is inaccurate. I still disagree as to the claim that this inaccurate colloquialism is often used by people in favour of the new Missal (I never ever found this either said or written by Catholics in favour, but all the time by people against), but after your last change to the article this is immaterial for the article.
I hope you accept the small change I introduced, because it makes for people who don't know Latin clearer that "novus ordo" actually means "new order" or - somewhat ambiguous - "new rite". (Ambiguous as rite in Catholic theology is often used in the sense of the whole system of Christian religious services as in "Latin Rite", "Russian Orthodox Rite" and so on.)
Oh and, with regard to my pre-occupation with calling the Tridentine Mass the so-called Tridentine Mass
What do you think are the quotations marks around "Tridentine" for? They of course fulfill the very same function as my "so called". As a matter of pure logic: For the very same reason that "Novus Ordo Mass" is an inaccurate colloquialism "Tridentine mass" is one. And the "so called" or the quotation marks are meant to signal this. As I'm equally happy with the quotation marks and you don't object to them in your citation I will use them in the article.
:Actually, I think I found a better way - in parallel to the new rite of mass. (I hope, Jtdirl likes it better too :-)
I typed in the text. I put quotation marks in. There were meant to be two single marks to italicise the word to show its use. Instead I inadvertently put one double which doesn't italicise. That is the reason. And BTW a press release issued by the Cardinal Archbishop of Dublin recently. 
:This is funny. Because on all sites in the internet which have the text there are those quotation marks too.
Cardinal say church still unavailable for Tridentine Mass
Cardinal Desmond Connell today repeated that one of Dublin's oldest churches, which ceased to be used for Novus Ordo Missae and Tridentine Mass in the early 1990s, will not be made available again in the forseeable future for liturgical celebration. A spokesman for the archdiocese explained:
"The rising insurance costs and small number of practising Catholics in the local parish makes the opening of Arran Quay Church impractable at present. While the church has not be deconsecrated, the cost of repairs to what is one of Dublin's oldest inner city churches makes it beyond the financial means of the Dublin Archdiocese to reopen the nineteenth century church for worship."
The Archdiocese's refusal follows a request from some adherents of the Tridentine rite replaced by the Novus Ordo in 1969 that the Archdiocese reopen the Church for Masses celebrated with the Archdiocese's permission using the Roman Missal as amended in 1962. The Archdiocese has promised to facilitate the celebration of the Tridentine rite in another city centre church and has indicated that it will begin discussions with the Matt Talbot Society on the selection of a different church in the near future. 17 May 2003. 
So yet another Cardinal talks about the Tridentine Mass, not the "so called" Tridentine Mass. How many is that now?
:To be precise: We don't know what the Cardinal said. It isn't quoted. His press office then uses the term.
Oh I almost forgot: 
      
Pope prepares to lift restrictions on Tridentine Mass
Catholic Herald, 2003
Last month, the Holy Father, who celebrated a Tridentine Mass last summer, published a command called Rescriptum ex Audientia to authorise the celebration of the old rite Mass in St Peter's Basilica, Rome, by any priest who possessed an indult. The Vatican also asked the Scottish bishops, ahead of their five-yearly ad limina visit to Rome in March, to reveal what provisions they made for the celebration of the old rite Mass in their dioceses. Since the meeting, the Scottish bishops have stepped up their provision from just four a year in the whole of the country to at least one a month in   Glasgow and Edinburgh. 
:The Catholic Herald uses the term then.
----
 Vatican officials favor elements of older Mass                            
By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.                                 
National Catholic Reporter Staff
National Catholic Reporter, June 30,  2000
                        
In statements sure to fuel Catholicism's already fierce debates over liturgy, two high-ranking Vatican officials have signaled support for changes that would either restore elements of the pre-1970s Latin Mass or make the older rite itself more widely available.
 
Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, head of a papal commission charged with overseeing use of the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass, told an Austrian news magazine in June that he favors wide freedom to celebrate the older rite. At present, the rite, often referred to as the Tridentine Mass, can be celebrated only with permission from a local bishop.
:The National Catholic Reporter reports the the rite is often referred to as the Tridentine Mass. That amounts to something like "so called".
----
"Mindful of the will of the Church to preserve her sacred rites, and attentive to the entreaties of the People of God, and after having consulted with the Council of Priests of the Archdiocese of Atlanta, we now deem it fitting to establish St. Francis de Sales Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Atlanta, as a personal parish to serve the needs of Catholics who wish to attend the rites of Holy Mother Church according to the 1962 Missal, and in accordance with the provisions of the indult, Ecclesia Dei, of our Holy Father Pope John Paul II," said Msgr. Dora. 
The Tridentine Mass was celebrated by the Western Church from 1562 to 1962 when, during the Second Vatican Council, changes in the liturgy, including use of the vernacular language rather than Latin, were promulgated. The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970 is now in use, but Pope John Paul II in 1984 gave permission for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass if the validity of Vatican II liturgical reforms is recognized. 
Archdiocese of Atlanta - 18 March 1999
:That's from their Newspaper, written by a staff member. So journalists working for the Archdiocese of Atlanta use the term.
----
According to the Rev. John McCloskey, director of the Catholic Information Center in Washington, the desire for such reconciliation was one contributing factor in the Vatican's plans for a return to liturgical stringency.
"Now, as I understand it, nothing will stand in the way of a priest wishing to celebrate the Tridentine Mass anymore," he said. "So at least on this score there will no longer be a reason for disagreement with the Lefebvre people."
UP international report in the Washington Times, May 15 2003
Oh and there is a book called The Attractiveness of the Tridentine Mass published by Cardinal Alfons Stickler. 
:That's a good example.
So I guess that covers the Archdiocese of Dublin, the Archdiocese of Atlanta, the National Catholic Reporter, the Director of the Catholic Information Center, the Catholic Herald, Cardinal Desmond Connell, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Stickler, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos oh and the Pope, who has begun using what his own press office calls a Tridentine Mass, following the Roman Missal of 1962. And according to the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, the late Cardinal O'Connor in the late 1990s invited Cardinal Stickler to celebrate what it called a Tridentine Mass in St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. So much for a non-existent term offensive to Catholics. Unless of course Cardinal Desmond Connell, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Stickler, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, Cardinal O'Connor and the Pope aren't catholic. FearÉIREANN 22:26 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
:Well, for one I never said that the term "Tridentine Mass is offensive. I also never claimed that this term is only used by critics of the new Roman Missal. I said, that it is as much inaccurate as the term "novus ordo mass". As far as I can tell, this is an inaccurate colloquialism one sometimes hears or reads. To you impressive list: To be precise you would have to take of some names, namely the Archdiocese of Atlanta, Cardinal Desmond Connell, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, the Pope, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese and Cardinal O'Connor. For none of these you actually showed that they use the term.
----
I like the change. One point (not strictly related to this article). I think I should rename the Novus Ordo to Novus Ordo Missae because Novus Ordo is also used politically by some fringe types for 'New World Order'. I'll make the change. Let me know what you think. If you think it is a problem I can always change it back but it is more accurate. FearÉIREANN 22:31 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm happy that you like the change. I think your change of name is correct. Ah, and as you liked the change the small here, I hope you allow me to change that article in a similar way ...
-----------------------------------
I dont get how this can be argued so much, but:
"The term "novus ordo mass" is never used by the Vatican, and I don't know of single quote where a theologian or bishop in union with Rome would use such a term. The catholic belief is that there is only one mass celebrated since apostolic times. What changed is the order of mass (Latin: ordo missae) not the mass. For this reason the term "novus ordo mass" is actually offensive for a catholic. I don't know how you can claim that neutralizing an offensive term (just indicating who might use it, not removing it) could be POV. To speak of the mass in the catholic church today as a novo ordo mass is definitely not neutral. Why do you insist on this non-neutral use of language? "
The term is used in english or latin to refer to the roman rite of the mass that has been in use since 69. It is to distinguish it from other rites such as the Antioch Rite, or the Liturgy of Jerusalem, or what is called the "triditine rite" which was the roman rite before the romans switched to this new rite. It can not be stated that the rite past 69 is similar enough to the one before so that it would be incorect to call them different. (if people can call the dominican rite a seperate rite, with a diff file output of about 3 lines, then they can and do distinguish the two rites). Anyway, if we all agree absolutely that novus ordo is a bad word, then please create a new word to describe what the romans do since 69.
Please be careful in the interests of NPOV to balance links. Don't overload the article with too many links from one side, whether pro- or anti Traditional Catholics. If possible, to avoid accusations of bias an even number of both should be concluded. FearÉIREANN 18:48, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: June

message: Your (Jtdirl's) claim about the use of the term "novus ordo mass" also by its defenders is utterly baseless. You so far were not able to provide one single reference that the term "novus ordo mass" is used also by its defenders let alone by the Vatican.
The term "novus ordo mass" is never used by the Vatican, and I don't know of single quote where a theologian or bishop in union with Rome would use such a term. The catholic belief is that there is only one mass celebrated since apostolic times. What changed is the order of mass (Latin: ordo missae) not the mass. For this reason the term "novus ordo mass" is actually offensive for a catholic. I don't know how you can claim that neutralizing an offensive term (just indicating who might use it, not removing it) could be POV. To speak of the mass in the catholic church today as a novo ordo mass is definitely not neutral. Why do you insist on this non-neutral use of language?
And could you be so kind, before changing things back again to provide at least one example of a reliable source where somebody knowing theology and in union with Rome actually calls the mass as celebrated today a novus ordo mass?
----
According to the Catholic Church, Novo Ordo is CORRECT. see talk page. Reverted. FearÉIREANN 09:02 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
----
#The Catholic Church knows Latin better.
#Again (the fourth time), the question is not about "novus ordo" (as in novus ordo missae = new order of mass) but about "novus ordo mass" or "new order mass".
#If you want to tell us that something is "according to the Catholic Church" such and such you have to provide authorative teaching.
----
I spoke to the Dublin Diocesian Press Office about this issue recently (while I was checking some facts for another article). They said it is perfectly correct term to use. I was on to the Vatican Press Office on Thursday about something unrelated to wiki (I am working on something on the RC church right now, and in particular to do with marian apparitions). I mentioned this issue and they said "it is an often used and perfectly correct term." And Tridentine Mass is widely and universally used, including by a Vatican Press Release which I received four months ago in which they used it, explaining how permission has on occasion been given "for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in preference to the celebration of the Novus Ordo Missæ in latin". But then I knew that both terms are perfectly acceptable and not in any possible way seen as POV. But your attempts to suggest they are POV when they are clearly not is unambiguously POV. So please stop doing so. FearÉIREANN 03:20 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
If it was "an often used and perfectly correct term" it should be easy for you - as I kindly asked you to do - "to provide at least one example of a reliable source where somebody knowing theology and in union with Rome actually calls the mass as celebrated today a novus ordo mass. (Of course publicly and checkable.) You did not provide a single one. (And BTW a Press Office is not a source for what "according the Catholic Church" is correct. It is not at all an authorative source.) User:129.187.254.12 (since s/he never seems to want to sign their messages, I've done it for them.) 
----
The article inaccurately used the term Novus Ordo Mass when it should have read Novus Ordo revised rite of Mass. That was an inadvertent slip up. But that term is widely used in a colloquial sense and is accepted in general usage by Catholic Church, because the term Novus Ordo (or rather Novus Ordo Missæ, to give it its full name) is used as a shorthand term for the revised Missal introduced by Paul VI. 
As to Novus Ordo Missae, that is the correct version to use. For example: 
----
EXAMPLE NO 1: A CONSERVATIVE CARDINAL</br>
The Novus Ordo Missae - considering the new elements, susceptible of widely differing evaluations, which appear to be implied or taken for  granted-represents, as a whole and in detail, a striking departure from the Catholic theology  of the Holy Mass as it was formulated in Session XXIII of the Council of Trent. . . . Therefore,  we most earnestly beseech your Holiness not to deprive us--at a time of such painful divisions  and ever-increasing perils for the purity of the Faith and the unity of the Church--of the  possibility of continuing to have recourse to the fruitful integrity of that Missale Romanum of St.  Pius V, so highly praised by your Holiness and so deeply venerated and loved by the whole  Catholic Church.
The words of Cardinal Ottaviani, written to Pope Paul VI in 1967.  (BTW Ottaviani was an extreme conservative who reluctantly accepted what he called the Novus Ordo Missae). 
----
EXAMPLE NO 2: A DEFENDER OF VATICAN II
Anathemas are attached to those who disobey Papal decrees, based on Papal Authority as  affirmed by Vatican Council I. Those who refuse to recognize Papal authority on the Novus Ordo (thinking that they know tradition better) are condemned by the decrees of Vatican I, a decree that on the surface they accept.  
If anyone should say that the Roman Pontiff has merely the function of inspection or  direction but not full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not only in matters pertaining to faith and morals, but also in matters pertaining to the discipline and government of  the Church throughout the entire world, or that he has only the principal share, but not the full  plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate over all  Churches and over each individual Church, over all shepherds and all the faithful, and over each  individual one of these: let him be anathema (Vatican Council I, Dogmatic Constitution of the  Church of Christ, #3).  
The words of John N. Lupia, PhD in his A Defence of the Pauline Mass (so no need to guess where he stands, then!)
----
EXAMPLE NO 3: A NEUTRAL PRIEST WRITING ABOUT MASS
In the middle ages a "pax brede" (instrumentum pacis, or osculatorium) was used; a board which the priest and other ministers kissed and which was then passed to the congregation. Later, and up to the present day, a formal gesture of embrace was exchanged among the ministers at the altar in certain forms of the Roman Rite.  
The kiss of peace was included in the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969, but only as an option and not as a requirement.
Words of Fr. Joseph Fessio, S.J. in his On The Celebration Of Mass (revised 16 March 2003)
----
EXAMPLE NO 4: A CONSERVATIVE CRITIC WHO RELUCTANTLY TOLERATED VATICAN II
First, let me clearly distance myself from any who would impugn the legitimacy of the recent pontificates, the orthodoxy of Vatican II, or the validity of the Novus Ordo as a true rite of the Mass which can be of great benefit to those who partake in it.  I am sincerely convinced that Vatican II was a gift to the Church.
Words of Michael Houser replying to the claim  by Fr. Joseph Gelineau, SJ that "The Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists.  It has been destroyed." The University Concourse Volume VIII, Issue 2 January 13, 2003
----
EXAMPLE NO 5: A PRO-VATICAN II PRIEST POINTING OUT THAT LATIN STILL COULD BE USED IN THE NOVUS ORDO
Most surprising of all, perhaps, is that the form of Mass that seems most clearly to have been intended by the Council -- one that preserves the use of the Latin language for the fixed parts of the Mass and   gives a preferential option to Gregorian Chant -- is entirely permissible within the liturgical regulations of the Novus Ordo Missae, or New Order of Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1969.
The words of Father Joseph Fessio, SJ', who is pro- the Novus Ordo, in The Mass of Vatican II in the Adoremus Bulletin Vol.IV No.8 Dec 1998/Jan 1999
----
EXAMPLE NO 6: A CRITIC OF TRADITIONAL CATHOLICS & THEIR USE OF THE TRIDENTINE MASS
Now, 22 years later, we witness a steady trickle of young Australian men moving to the United States or to Europe to study at Una Voce seminaries: to be ordained exclusively in the Tridentine Rite, with the resolute exclusion of saying any Mass in the Novus Ordo Missae promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI as a result of the liturgical changes that had been introduced by the Second Vatican Council.
Frits Albers, Ph. B. IN DEFENSE OF THE NOVUS ORDO MISSAE OF HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI (1st edition 1978, final edition 2000) 
                          
Oh and, with regard to your pre-occupation with calling the Tridentine Mass the so-called Tridentine Mass
Of course the celebrant of the "'Tridentine"' Mass should not fail in their preaching and contacts with the faithful attending such Masses to emphasize their own adherence to the legislation of the universal church and their acknowledgment of the doctrinal and juridical value of the liturgy as revisited after the Second Vatican Council. Under such conditions, it would seem unnecessary, even unduly painful, to impose further restrictions upon those who wish to attend such celebrations.
Cardinal Paul Augustine Mayer, President, Pontifical Commission, referring to Pope John Paul II's encyclical ECCLESIA DEI issued in July 1988. 
So Novus Ordo Missae is correct. And Novus Ordo Mass is an inaccurate colloquialism used to use the name of the revised liturgy with a statement that it is a Mass, something non Catholics would not necessarily know. As was said by the Vatican Press Office, it isn't strictly accurate but it is a generalised colloquialism used to describe a type of Mass with the fact that it is a Mass, something which non catholics might not otherwise know. And absolutely no-one but you thought it could possibly be offensive. FearÉIREANN 11:20 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Indeed. Novus Ordo Missae is correct. Novus Ordo mass is inaccurate. I still disagree as to the claim that this inaccurate colloquialism is often used by people in favour of the new Missal (I never ever found this either said or written by Catholics in favour, but all the time by people against), but after your last change to the article this is immaterial for the article.
I hope you accept the small change I introduced, because it makes for people who don't know Latin clearer that "novus ordo" actually means "new order" or - somewhat ambiguous - "new rite". (Ambiguous as rite in Catholic theology is often used in the sense of the whole system of Christian religious services as in "Latin Rite", "Russian Orthodox Rite" and so on.)
Oh and, with regard to my pre-occupation with calling the Tridentine Mass the so-called Tridentine Mass
What do you think are the quotations marks around "Tridentine" for? They of course fulfill the very same function as my "so called". As a matter of pure logic: For the very same reason that "Novus Ordo Mass" is an inaccurate colloquialism "Tridentine mass" is one. And the "so called" or the quotation marks are meant to signal this. As I'm equally happy with the quotation marks and you don't object to them in your citation I will use them in the article.
:Actually, I think I found a better way - in parallel to the new rite of mass. (I hope, Jtdirl likes it better too :-)
I typed in the text. I put quotation marks in. There were meant to be two single marks to italicise the word to show its use. Instead I inadvertently put one double which doesn't italicise. That is the reason. And BTW a press release issued by the Cardinal Archbishop of Dublin recently. 
:This is funny. Because on all sites in the internet which have the text there are those quotation marks too.
Cardinal say church still unavailable for Tridentine Mass
Cardinal Desmond Connell today repeated that one of Dublin's oldest churches, which ceased to be used for Novus Ordo Missae and Tridentine Mass in the early 1990s, will not be made available again in the forseeable future for liturgical celebration. A spokesman for the archdiocese explained:
"The rising insurance costs and small number of practising Catholics in the local parish makes the opening of Arran Quay Church impractable at present. While the church has not be deconsecrated, the cost of repairs to what is one of Dublin's oldest inner city churches makes it beyond the financial means of the Dublin Archdiocese to reopen the nineteenth century church for worship."
The Archdiocese's refusal follows a request from some adherents of the Tridentine rite replaced by the Novus Ordo in 1969 that the Archdiocese reopen the Church for Masses celebrated with the Archdiocese's permission using the Roman Missal as amended in 1962. The Archdiocese has promised to facilitate the celebration of the Tridentine rite in another city centre church and has indicated that it will begin discussions with the Matt Talbot Society on the selection of a different church in the near future. 17 May 2003. 
So yet another Cardinal talks about the Tridentine Mass, not the "so called" Tridentine Mass. How many is that now?
:To be precise: We don't know what the Cardinal said. It isn't quoted. His press office then uses the term.
Oh I almost forgot: 
      
Pope prepares to lift restrictions on Tridentine Mass
Catholic Herald, 2003
Last month, the Holy Father, who celebrated a Tridentine Mass last summer, published a command called Rescriptum ex Audientia to authorise the celebration of the old rite Mass in St Peter's Basilica, Rome, by any priest who possessed an indult. The Vatican also asked the Scottish bishops, ahead of their five-yearly ad limina visit to Rome in March, to reveal what provisions they made for the celebration of the old rite Mass in their dioceses. Since the meeting, the Scottish bishops have stepped up their provision from just four a year in the whole of the country to at least one a month in   Glasgow and Edinburgh. 
:The Catholic Herald uses the term then.
----
 Vatican officials favor elements of older Mass                            
By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.                                 
National Catholic Reporter Staff
National Catholic Reporter, June 30,  2000
                        
In statements sure to fuel Catholicism's already fierce debates over liturgy, two high-ranking Vatican officials have signaled support for changes that would either restore elements of the pre-1970s Latin Mass or make the older rite itself more widely available.
 
Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, head of a papal commission charged with overseeing use of the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass, told an Austrian news magazine in June that he favors wide freedom to celebrate the older rite. At present, the rite, often referred to as the Tridentine Mass, can be celebrated only with permission from a local bishop.
:The National Catholic Reporter reports the the rite is often referred to as the Tridentine Mass. That amounts to something like "so called".
----
"Mindful of the will of the Church to preserve her sacred rites, and attentive to the entreaties of the People of God, and after having consulted with the Council of Priests of the Archdiocese of Atlanta, we now deem it fitting to establish St. Francis de Sales Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Atlanta, as a personal parish to serve the needs of Catholics who wish to attend the rites of Holy Mother Church according to the 1962 Missal, and in accordance with the provisions of the indult, Ecclesia Dei, of our Holy Father Pope John Paul II," said Msgr. Dora. 
The Tridentine Mass was celebrated by the Western Church from 1562 to 1962 when, during the Second Vatican Council, changes in the liturgy, including use of the vernacular language rather than Latin, were promulgated. The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970 is now in use, but Pope John Paul II in 1984 gave permission for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass if the validity of Vatican II liturgical reforms is recognized. 
Archdiocese of Atlanta - 18 March 1999
:That's from their Newspaper, written by a staff member. So journalists working for the Archdiocese of Atlanta use the term.
----
According to the Rev. John McCloskey, director of the Catholic Information Center in Washington, the desire for such reconciliation was one contributing factor in the Vatican's plans for a return to liturgical stringency.
"Now, as I understand it, nothing will stand in the way of a priest wishing to celebrate the Tridentine Mass anymore," he said. "So at least on this score there will no longer be a reason for disagreement with the Lefebvre people."
UP international report in the Washington Times, May 15 2003
Oh and there is a book called The Attractiveness of the Tridentine Mass published by Cardinal Alfons Stickler. 
:That's a good example.
So I guess that covers the Archdiocese of Dublin, the Archdiocese of Atlanta, the National Catholic Reporter, the Director of the Catholic Information Center, the Catholic Herald, Cardinal Desmond Connell, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Stickler, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos oh and the Pope, who has begun using what his own press office calls a Tridentine Mass, following the Roman Missal of 1962. And according to the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, the late Cardinal O'Connor in the late 1990s invited Cardinal Stickler to celebrate what it called a Tridentine Mass in St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. So much for a non-existent term offensive to Catholics. Unless of course Cardinal Desmond Connell, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Stickler, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, Cardinal O'Connor and the Pope aren't catholic. FearÉIREANN 22:26 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
:Well, for one I never said that the term "Tridentine Mass is offensive. I also never claimed that this term is only used by critics of the new Roman Missal. I said, that it is as much inaccurate as the term "novus ordo mass". As far as I can tell, this is an inaccurate colloquialism one sometimes hears or reads. To you impressive list: To be precise you would have to take of some names, namely the Archdiocese of Atlanta, Cardinal Desmond Connell, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, the Pope, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese and Cardinal O'Connor. For none of these you actually showed that they use the term.
----
I like the change. One point (not strictly related to this article). I think I should rename the Novus Ordo to Novus Ordo Missae because Novus Ordo is also used politically by some fringe types for 'New World Order'. I'll make the change. Let me know what you think. If you think it is a problem I can always change it back but it is more accurate. FearÉIREANN 22:31 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm happy that you like the change. I think your change of name is correct. Ah, and as you liked the change the small here, I hope you allow me to change that article in a similar way ...
-----------------------------------
I dont get how this can be argued so much, but:
"The term "novus ordo mass" is never used by the Vatican, and I don't know of single quote where a theologian or bishop in union with Rome would use such a term. The catholic belief is that there is only one mass celebrated since apostolic times. What changed is the order of mass (Latin: ordo missae) not the mass. For this reason the term "novus ordo mass" is actually offensive for a catholic. I don't know how you can claim that neutralizing an offensive term (just indicating who might use it, not removing it) could be POV. To speak of the mass in the catholic church today as a novo ordo mass is definitely not neutral. Why do you insist on this non-neutral use of language? "
The term is used in english or latin to refer to the roman rite of the mass that has been in use since 69. It is to distinguish it from other rites such as the Antioch Rite, or the Liturgy of Jerusalem, or what is called the "triditine rite" which was the roman rite before the romans switched to this new rite. It can not be stated that the rite past 69 is similar enough to the one before so that it would be incorect to call them different. (if people can call the dominican rite a seperate rite, with a diff file output of about 3 lines, then they can and do distinguish the two rites). Anyway, if we all agree absolutely that novus ordo is a bad word, then please create a new word to describe what the romans do since 69.
Please be careful in the interests of NPOV to balance links. Don't overload the article with too many links from one side, whether pro- or anti Traditional Catholics. If possible, to avoid accusations of bias an even number of both should be concluded. FearÉIREANN 18:48, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology debate

message: This isn't good enough: "As an example, there are two saints from the time of the Great Schism, one of which accepted the anti-pope as valid and the other of which accepted the true pope.
". If this point is germane to the issue, would someone make it so, with the necessary specifics? --Wetman 21:09, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Saints

message: ===Links to SSPX===
Why have we got so many links to SSPX?  They have their own entry, yet I've counted five links to various parts of the group.
If this is meant to show how important they are on the trad scene - which I don't doubt - then this should be reflected in the text of the article itself and not in a large amount of links in an article on a movement of which they are a constituent part.
Also I've changed the category back to :Category:Catholic Traditionalism which itself hangs off the RCC cat.
JASpencer 12:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: July

message: Why have we got so many links to SSPX?  They have their own entry, yet I've counted five links to various parts of the group.
If this is meant to show how important they are on the trad scene - which I don't doubt - then this should be reflected in the text of the article itself and not in a large amount of links in an article on a movement of which they are a constituent part.
Also I've changed the category back to :Category:Catholic Traditionalism which itself hangs off the RCC cat.
JASpencer 12:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to SSPX

message: This is much improved, my compliments. In my reading over the past day, I feel I have some support in my position, however, this term isn't defined by the Church. Usage of this term is spurious, and for different speakers, it meant different things. 
In the article I think the term "Dissenting" is much preferred.  Losing the pejoritive is appreciated. I added a paragraph about incardination. I also fixed a clumsy phrase. I almost removed the CCPA, but I guess it should be left, even though they say a Tridentine Mass, it is hard to call them Catholic, as a Body. Reports of CCPA Priests visiting Rome is perplexing. Dominick 12:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New Edits

message: I split the definition. Please edit yours, and please alter the heading as you think it best, then we can turn around end critique each others work. I think this will end this impasse. I will add footnotes later. Dominick 11:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Split definition

message: A revert is not a vandalism. The entire opening paragraph was nonsense: "Traditionalist" Catholics don't want to "bring back" the worship and practices of the Roman Catholic Church "back to how they were" (such inelegant language) before the Second Vatican Council. They want to preserve them, and have been doing so since the Council and before. Additionally, "the Council" isn't what changed the liturgy and rites; these things came after the Council.
The stuff about how the term is used in the media -- "Pope mees head of rebel Catholic traditionalists" -- is also nonsense. Not only is it inflammatory in its language, it is also incorrect. There is no "head" of "Catholic traditionalists" but the Pope and Bishops (assuming said traditional Catholics aren't sedevacantist).
The entire section, "Distinction between Traditionalists and other Catholics," is also inflammatory and is mostly about liberal Catholics. The line about "Vatican authorities" who "believe that the Second Vatican Council did not in fact alter the Church's teaching" is set in opposition to the perceived traditional Catholic view. But the fact is that different traditional Catholics believe different things about Vatican II. Some believe the Council did not conflict with Catholic teaching at all but that the documents were ambiguously written and have been INTERPRETED to conflict with Church teaching. Others think the documents themselves are in conflict. And sedevacantsts don't believe the Council was a valid Council at all.
As the article was, it was POV-based rhetoric that attempted to paint all traditional Catholics with one brush, smear them by reference to what the media have to say (as if the media are operated by theologians), and which was apparently written by someone who has no idea what traditional Catholics think about Vatican II.
:sorry you dont like the edits. Violating the revert rule is not how to do this. You need to stop. Dominick 02:07, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: An anonymous user's objections

message: I fixed this page to be in wiki talk page order, as tradition dictates (I couldn't help it), and I ask to keep this  page square we abide by the conventions in Talk Page. Dominick 11:47, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fixed comment order

message: Dominick goes on about "mainstream traditionalists" (where in the media are they spoken of?) and then freaks when those who attend FSSP Masses and don't worry about interpretations of Vatican II are called "mainstream." 
 
WHAT is this article about? When people look up "traditional Catholics" are they looking to get info on the thoughts of the lady who attends the Novus Ordo Mass but wishes she were at an FSSP parish and who prays the Rosary every day? Or are they looking for info on the traditional Catholic movement to preserve and restore the Mass, Sacraments, and ALL the teachings of the Church? 
 
This article is getting nuts.
:You are making this tough by losing everyones edits, by your constant reverts. Dominick 11:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mainstream Catholics

message: Again the revert back several versions. The whole days work fixing this artcle and one of what I suspect are several anonymous users goes and reverts back. Dominick 01:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A days work wasted with a revert

message: It appears there is an axe being ground here that is beyond the scope of an article on wikipedia helping to explain Catholic traditionalism. Assuming you want to write an NPoV article, lets look at your terms.
And I object to you claiming to know who is "in communion 'with Rome'" and who isn't. But there is a dichotomy between "conservative Catholics" and "traditional Catholics." 
I didnt claim that, I went by what is published by Rome, and specifically, the Moto Proprio issued by then Cardinal Ratzinger.
If there weren't, then there wouldn't be a split in the Catholic universe between "EWTN/Catholic Answers/JPII We Love U" crowd on the one hand, and those who object to all the things listed in the hideously named section "Attitude towards the Second Vatican Council of traditionalist Catholics not in full accord with the Holy See" (a name I absolutely object to because it is vague. This "in full accord with the Holy See" thing is also asinine because it conflates definitive teaching (i.e., solemn definitions, that which has always been taught, etc.) with anything some Cardinal wants to say.)
Viewership of EWTN is not a criteria for being a traditionalist. I can't help you there, but most at Catholic Answers often use the term traditionalist when referring to themselves. When we say full accord in Church documents, it means that it teaches what the See teaches, not what you may think the See taught. This doesn't mean those beliefs changes, but, the explanation has been explored in further detail, which is exactly as the Church is intended to work. Catholicism has a living magestarium, and while the principles do not change, the explanation can be tailored for the times. Your problem with the Church is outside the scope of this article. 
As far as the division, the article was flawed in that no defintion exists for either term as the Church knows it. If you can find the defintion of Conservative Catholic, made by a source, preferable a Catholic CHurch source, I would think differently. As the term conservative denotes a political leaning and not a theological one, it is misplaced. Anyone can identify themselves with the concept of traditionalism as you stated, which is the restoration of elements of the Church from before the 1960s, and be considered a traditionalist. The problem is trying to contrast that with a made up term is wrong. 
That people trying to find information on "traditional Catholicism" are looking for information on the traditional Catholic movement, not for the thoughts of any old "nostalgic" soul stuck in a parish with some priest in leotards.A priest still wears a roman collar. I have never seen one in leotards, except one unattibuted picture that is usually bandied about as examples of Novus Ordo priests by integrists. That being said, wearing of leotards does not make one a traditionalist. As it states in Church law a Priest must wear vestments when saying Mass.
And traditional Catholics are the FIRST to agree with you about the unity of the Church which is why they call themselves "traditional Catholics" -- SMALL "T" and no "ist" ending. The "traditional" is an ADJECTIVE," not some branch "of" the Church which is what you, in this article, are trying to make it.
You have put both sets of words in my mouth. First I say there is unity then I say they are a branch. 
So an article on "traditional Catholics" should include stuff about non-Catholics? Let's have a sub-section on poodles, too!
Sedes are no longer Catholic Church members, by their selfidentified excommunication. SSPX Bishops were excommunicated by writ, from the Pope. One who is excommunicated is no longer Catholic.
How can one "dissent" from "Rome" while believing every single dogma of the Catholic Faith, accepting the primacy of the Pope, attending a Catholic Mass offered by a Catholic priest, etc.? I don't see you talking about those Catholics who are not "in full accord with Rome" or who are "dissenting" in the main entry on "Catholicism," but I assure you that there's plenty of room if you want to have at it. Just visit a typical parish and find out who even believes in the Real Presence.
</I>Every Catholic purporting to be union with Rome better believe those as they are dogmatic, if they think we should bring the Mass closer to the Tridentine Mass or not. Catholic tradition has always been taught you attend a licit Mass. Saints have been made from those who refused to take illicit communion from an Arian Priest or Bishop and were martyred. One can't toss out the status of the Priest or his fidelity to his Bishop. 
No, my definition is one used by traditional Catholics who attend "indult" Masses, Masses offered by the S.S.P.X., or who are sedevacantist. The earlier versions of the article made clear the distinctions among these subsets of traditional Catholics.
And I have never set foot in an S.S.P.X. chapel before in my life.
None the less your narrow definition of this undefined term by the Church, mirrors those of the SSPX. People who attend Indult Mass often attend a Novus Ordo if they have to, since preference to the Rite of Mass is not a valid reason for missing the SUnday Obligation. If one were to attend ONE Novus Ordo Mass they would not be a traditionalist.
Well, gee, that's what the S.S.P.X. says, too -- that both the "TLM" and the N.O. are both valid. But you apparently don't know this since you know nothing about traditional Catholicism and have the definite agenda of dissaproving of any Catholic who doesn't fit your particular definition. But if the traditional Catholic movement means ANYTHING, it includes the very BASIC thinking that the Mass, Sacraments, and all the teachings of the Faith must be preserved (and "restored" where they are lost). That is what "tratitional Catholicism" is.
Your personal attack aside, The SSPX may say that but they instruct the faithful to not attend Indult nor Novus Ordo Mass. 
The basic thinking is the crux of this arguement I made, this is a self-identified term, a club anyone can join by expressing a desire to be a traditionalist. 
You complain about the comparison between "traditional Catholics" and "conservative Catholics" but the first version I saw here had a comparison between "traditional Catholics" and "liberals." Your agenda is showing.
The fact is that the distinctions between "trads" and "conservatives" is the line that has to be clarified. Both of these groups agree that Catholic dogma (which they understand differently) must be accepted for one to remain a living member of the Church.
The earlier versions made this distinction clear, were much better written, were more clear, and were non-judgmental toward the traditional Catholics that a few people here apparently don't know anything about but don't like anyway. In this version, there are things said about "traditional Catholics" that all traditional Catholics do not believe. The language about Vatican II is sloppy. This "full accord" stuff is nonsense.
The Church is the arbiter of accord. Your comments are valid but reverting and not editing articles doest serve you well at wikipedia. As for my agenda, I am hardly a liberal, and even if I were, it does not stop me from forming an NPoV article, and working with others as I have done.  
Then how come you don't consider yourself a vandalizer for throwing out the earlier versions that clarified the differences between "traditional Catholics" and "conservative Catholics"?
</I>
After edits and changes you tossed the entirety of the work away, and reverted to a old verison. That is POV vandalism. I didn not remove the section to start with, another user did.
I do not not think talking with you on Church topics helps reach a consensus. So in the future, direct your comments to the specifics of this article. 
We agree that traditionalism includes the belief that one should restore Church elements from before the reforms of the 1960s, even if they do not attend any Tridentine Mass. We agree that leotards are a bad choice for vestments.
We disagree on the term conservative, and disagree that the terms in accord denotes that someone is in union with Rome. Perhaps using the term "good standing" would be an improvement, even while I think that is too weak of a term. We disagree on the understanding of Church dogma by Catholics and traditional Catholics, there is no difference IMHO, and you think they understand it differently. I would love USER:Lima to pop in here. Dominick 12:15, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dominick to Anonymous again

message: If I may get a word in edgeways, may I get two in, please?
1. The Holy See says it is not in accord with SSPX. It takes two to make an accord. Whatever the other side may say, full accord is lacking between the Holy See and certain traditional(ist) Catholics. So, if the article were not blocked, I would, to please Anonymous, change "not in full accord with the Holy See" to "between whom and the Holy See full accord is lacking", or I would return the text to "of the second and third categories", which is shorter.
2. I beg pardon of Anonymous for not grasping what really is his definition of "traditional Catholic". He seems to exclude some of those who are covered by the definition "Catholics who want the worship and practices of the Roman Catholic Church to be as before the Second Vatican Council" - those, perhaps, who, though they prefer the old style, accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council as true, and the subsequent decrees of the Holy See as valid. Yet he seems to include within traditional Catholicism the members of the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter.
Lima 15:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lima gets a word in edgeways

message: Sorry, I can only repeat:
1. Full accord between SSPX and the Holy See is lacking. To put it more positively, there is a dispute. When presenting in 1993 the revised Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism, and so of relations with other Christian denominations, Cardinal Edward Cassidy said what is obvious, namely that the dispute with SSPX, as with other Catholics of whatever tendency, is an internal matter of the Catholic Church, not a matter of ecumenical relations. He did not say there was no dispute. Surely nobody seriously believes there is no dispute, no lack of full accord.
2. I wrote of "the teachings" of the Second Vatican Council, not "some of the teachings". Nor did I write: "infallible teachings". I also wrote of "the subsequent decrees of the Holy See. ("Subsequent" means "that FOLLOWED".) I am still waiting for a clear understandable definition by Anonymous of what he understands by "traditional Catholic".
Lima 04:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lima writes

message: What about Bishop Malone of Liverpool (SNIP) who wants women (who, by definition, cannot become priestsOff topic he isn’t a traditionalist, and this is also condemned by Church teaching to be held by all Catholics.
 What about Cardinal O'Brien who used a Mass of thanksgiving as an occasion to question Church teaching and discipline regarding contraception, homosexuality, and clerical celibacy? Off topic he isn’t a traditionalist, and this is also condemned by Church teaching to be held by all Catholics.
What about Cardinal Kasper, who denies that Jews need Jesus to be saved and who denies the Catholic understanding of apostolic succession? Off topic he isn’t a traditionalist, and this is also condemned by Church teaching to be held by all Catholics. Cardinal Kaspar also didn’t say that.
Then there's Bishop Lucas of Springfield, who held his ordination party in a Masonic Lodge. JPII made him Bishop in 1999, when someone had to replace Bishop Ryan, who was caught with his cassock down around priests and male prostitutes Off topic he isn’t a traditionalist, and this is also condemned by Church teaching to be held by all Catholics.  
What about Bishops Zipfel and Aquila of North Dakota, both appointed to their Sees by JPII, who refused to endorse a bill to criminalize abortion? Off topic they are not traditionalists, and this is also condemned by Church teaching to be held by all Catholics.
Now, what does it mean for a Catholic to be "in full accord" with this sort of thing?
</i>It means you are in Union with the teaching of the Church. You are not making any point, to the content of this article and are not even TRYING to reach consensus. This is not a debating society.
But what teachings -- fallible or infallible -- "of the Second Vatican Council" do "traditional Catholics" have to accept lest they put themselves "outside the Church" or "not in full accord" with "Rome"? 
For one the Council was validly convened, so all of it, asa valid concil of the Church.
I think I've explained it very clearly. A "traditional Catholic" is a Catholic who wants to preserve (or restore where wanting) the traditional Mass, traditional Sacramental rites, and ALL of the teachings of the Church AS they have always been understood by the Church. We already have consensus on this. 
 
What are the differences in how mainstream Catholics and traditional Catholics understand those eternal teachings of the Church? See the hideously-named section four of the article as it stands now at 1 October 2005, 1:15 AM EST. It is quite clear.That wasn’t clear, Catholics are held to the same Dogma, and the understanding shall be that of the See. Your opinion is incorrect.
The term "traditional Catholic" doesn't indicate a mere preference for the traditional Mass or else you'd have to count as a "traditional Catholic" people like Andrew Sullivan and anyone who just likes Latin or Palestrina or incense and has any aesthetic taste at all. 
</I>This is your opinion that they could not be included, are you now going to complain that we are the arbiters of Union with the Holy See and you are the arbiter of traditionalism?
It doesn't include the "Catholic Answers" crowd, which you can see from their own website (and also the likes of EWTN and such, who constantly differentiate between mainstream Catholics and "traditional Catholics.") Do a Google search to prove this to yourself if you don't believe me. Again, see </I>I hearing Karl Keating speak he has referred to himself as a traditionalist. I looked to the forums, the term has fallen off, but this is because of the rhetorical idiosyncracies of CA Forums. Your personal PoV on Catholic Answers is not germaine to this article. You can’t be the arbiter of who is and who is not a traditionalist. 
I know they use the term with a capital T and use arch-Traditionalist who hold to the heresy the Novis Ordo is invalid, but they also use the term in the classical sense. Your problem with Catholic Answer is not going to be part of this article, as personal PoV doesn’t belong here. 
It doesn't include those who yelled "Santo subito!" after His Holiness John Paul II died, You think that if a person thinks John Paul was a saint they can’t be a traditionalist? That is just presumptuous. Your PoV again, and your problems with the John-Paul II Papacy, is irrelevant. Are we to stick that in there too? If you think John Paul was a Saint, you are not a Traditionalist, so says Anonymous.
It is simply those Catholics who hold fast to the traditions and who believe everything the Church has taught IN THE SAME WAY the Church has always understood things, and who want to preserve (and restore where lacking) the traditional Mass and all of the traditional Sacramental rites. Well you are inconsistent in your writing. This is what we have consesus on now. We do not agree on excluding others who do not meet your personal view of traditional purity. This has always been the crux of this disagreement. So far you have excluded and included people in this definition at your whim, supported by horror stories of Bishops gone wild and priests in leotards. Well, your definiton of traditionalist is flawed and byzantine. (a pun!) Sticking with the one we agree on, without all your caveats and litmus tests makes things much more accurate.
I beg pardon for being insistent and "grouchy" about this, but this is far too important to me personally to take lightly (teaching about the Roman Catholic Church and bringing souls to Her is my passion). Nonetheless, I agree that the article should be written in an objective manner, which I think the article had been.No It was changed to be objection, however you didn’t like the definition as used by the vast majority of Catholics, you can’t change reality by changing a Wikipedia article. There is a point where insistance fails to serve your cause. Dominick 12:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dominick defends himself

message: #Traditionalism is the belief that one should restore Church elements from before the reforms of the 1960s. 
#The groups include those attending Indult Mass, Non-approved Mass, and Sede Masses. 
This doesn't use any other peripherial items. This doesn not exclude those who attend Novus Ordo Masses as well. I don't like the terms used that implied a purity test.
Is this a working definition? Dominick 14:19, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Consensus?

message: Aside from the main issues being discussed, I want to point out that a couple things make this Talk page very difficult to read and follow. The first is that apparently one or more people prefer not to sign their posts, which violates basic Wikiquette and makes the page very confusing to read. The 'YOU SAY / I SAY' format is confusing, because it's not at all clear who is saying what. I tried to follow the conversation for a while, but it eventually became clear that the 'YOU' in 'YOU SAY' wasn't always the same person. On top of that, some editors denied having said things attributed to them, which makes me think that something got lost or at the very least taken out of context when it was copy-pasted into a 'YOU SAY' section. Editing or altering someone else's comments, even to correct a typo they made, is considered very bad form incidentally, at least by most wikipedians. The later plain type / italic type distinction isn't much better. The way we tell who is saying what on wikipedia is for each person to sign their posts with four tilde's, as explained at the top of this very page. Colons can be used to indent. This is what has worked well for years on wikipedia. If you don't want to even register a username, that's ok, the four tilde's will result in an IP address signature. Personally I think there's more anonymity in a registered username than there is in an IP address, and registering is not at all invasive nor do you have to give up any personal information; sharing an email address is strictly optional. Wesley \
The other thing that would help is to keep the discussion focused on the substance of the article, on how to improve the article, make it more complete, accurate, NPOV, clear to a reader unfamiliar with the subject, etc. Comments on individual editors' beliefs, knowledge or ignorance, etc. are generally unhelpful. Attempts to convince fellow editors that you're right and they're wrong are generally unhelpful with regard to beliefs. (Believe me I know, as I've made these mistakes myself and seen others make them.) Sometimes you have to do this with factual information, in which case some kind of reference or citation is usually immensely helpful; otherwise it just boils down to a shouting match. (And no, using all caps doesn't help you win a shouting match; quite the contrary.) Wesley \
Obviously there are strong and opposing opinions about what a traditionalist Catholic is. There are at least a couple of approaches you can take. You can try to reduce the definition to a 'Least Common Denominator' description, which is what I think the above call for consensus seems to be doing; or you can try to neutrally present the competing definitions, comparing and contrasting them with each other. I've seen this result in articles that are in some ways more informative, but in other ways more confusing, with often choppy writing. ("A thinks this but B believes that" often is accurate but doesn't read well.)
Wesley 16:38, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Without responding to your off topic points, because Union with Rome is one of the hallmarks of tradition, You simply don't read what I said for the working definition. Like I said I made a consensus thesis, taken from your text, and you failed to recognize or comprehend it. Nothing that you said I had said was in there, and I guess this will stay protected until we get more eyes on this problem. I think the consensus is the article shall include all Catholics with a belief about the Church returning elements from Catholicism pre-1960s. I think we can leave out the part about disqualification as a traditionalist if you think JP is a saint out of the article. Dominick 11:27, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikiquette and comment formatting 

message: 1a. Perhaps we can now thankfully end discussion on "in full accord". I, perhaps wrongly, understood Anonymous to object to a distinction being drawn between traditional(ist) Catholics in full accord with the Holy See and traditional(ist) Catholics who are not. If he now accepts that this is a valid distinction, there is no disagreement. Whether or not the others whom he attacks are in full accord or in dispute with the Holy See is irrelevant: they are not traditional(ist) Catholics.
1b. "Holy See" is not, as Anonymous says, a vague expression. It is very precise: canon 361 of the Code of Canon Law gives a clear definition. If Anonymous dislikes the present Code of Canon Law, since it was promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1983, several years after the Second Vatican Council, he can refer instead to canon 7 of the 1917 Code.
2a. I never said that traditional(ist) Catholics "put themselves outside the Church". I said the opposite. People baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism remain members of the Catholic Church, in spite of the disputes they may have with the Holy See, unless they defect from the Catholic Church by a formal act (cf. canon 1124 of the Code of Canon Law). But there remains a distinction between those traditional(ist) Catholics who accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council (and the subsequent decrees of the Holy See), and those other traditional(ist) Catholics who only accept some or perhaps even none of those teachings (and of the subsequent decrees).
2b. Defining "traditional Catholic" as "a Catholic who wants to preserve (or restore where wanting) the traditional Mass, traditional Sacramental rites, and ALL of the teachings of the Church AS they have always been understood by the Church" is like defining "yellow ribbon" as "a ribbon that is yellow". The term to be defined is itself found within the so-called definition. Even the phrase "as they have always been understood by the Church" is a very subjective expression. The general body of Catholics would not be classified as traditional(ist) Catholics, but they certainly want, in their understanding of the matter, "to preserve ALL the teachings of the Church AS they have always been understood by the Church". So here again the term to be defined is, implicitly, found within the so-called definition, which only comes to "traditional means traditional".
Lima 14:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lima to Anonymous

message: 152.163.100.202 10:51, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lima back to Anonymous