Talk:Anarchism/Archive 51

message: Should not the articles Anarchy and Anarchism be merged? I mean, they're the same thing.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiwikiwakoo (talk • contribs) 16:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anarchy/Anarchism?

message: Why is there no mention of atheist anarshism in Religion section?
http://www.couchsurfing.com/group.html?gid=1154  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.46.248.208 (talk) 13:25, August 25, 2007 (UTC) 
:What do you mean by "no mention"? Jacob Haller 13:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Charles A. Madison writes, "The first modern systematic exponent of anarchism was William Godwin… [s]trongly influenced by the sentiments of the French Revolution, he argued that since man is a rational being he must not be hampered in the exercise of his pure reason. Moreover, since all forms of government have irrational foundations and are consequently tyrannical in nature, they must be swept away."
Skomorokh incite 21:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anarchy and atheism 

message: Possibly useful material here
:Charles A. Madison writes, "The first modern systematic exponent of anarchism was William Godwin… [s]trongly influenced by the sentiments of the French Revolution, he argued that since man is a rational being he must not be hampered in the exercise of his pure reason. Moreover, since all forms of government have irrational foundations and are consequently tyrannical in nature, they must be swept away."
Skomorokh incite 21:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Godwin and Proudhon trimmed 

message: I don't think either of these are notable enough to stand alongside individualist anarchism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-capitalism etc. As mentioned previously, agorism is rather obscure and deserving of a line or two at most; ditto Kevin Carson and his mutualist revival. The ALL gets an entire pull-quote when it is not even notable enough for an article and Peter Kropotkin just got cut down to a few lines. I feel these two tendencies are broadly in agreement (they are included together in the Left-libertarianism article for example) and will merge them unless anyone objects. Thoughts? Skomorokh incite 18:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Organizing this article is problematic since things overlap, etc. I don't know if a "left libertarian" section should be in the article if there is not a "right libertarian" section. Just putting some suggestions out. It's confusing. Operation Spooner 18:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we want to avoid subsections as much as possible in the Schools of Thought section. Anarcho-capitalism is, in my opinion, notable enough for its own section in a way that left-libertarianism and mutualism (not to mention [[agorism and geoanarchism) are not. As a general rule, I'd like each section to be confined to three paragraphs about 20 lines long. Is there any reason that left-libertarianism and mutualism should not be put together — any blatant contradictions — or am I right in thinking they share common market-friendly individualist tendencies? Skomorokh incite 19:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I disagree that individualist anarchism descended from mutualism. For example, Theoreau, Emerson, Warren, and others early individualists were never exposed to it. Anarcho-capitalism didn't descend from mutualism either. There is no mutualism in anarcho-capitalism. At the most mutualism was an influence on some individualist anarchists, but an influence that has pretty much disappeared with the near extinction of the labor theory of value. I don't think any revival in it is very significant because who is involved in it, other than Kevin Carson? Maybe two other people at the most? Just because he wrote a book on it, it doesn't exactly indicate a revival. It's also difficult to see why agorism would be under left libertarianism since it's no different than anarcho-capitalism. It's just a strategy (i.e. the practice of guerrilla capitalism) to achieve anarcho-capitalism. Operation Spooner 23:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your arguments are ridiculously inconsistent. "Individualist anarchism" is defined theoretically, regardless of self-identifications and movement affiliations, but "mutualism" must be defined in precisely the opposite fashion. Sorry. POV-driven special pleading doesn't cut it, particularly when it is supported by clearly false statements. Warren was almost certainly "exposed" to explicit "mutualism" of the pre-anarchist variety in the 1820s, was involved in the promotion of mutual banking (according to James J. Martin) in 1850, participated in a variety of collaborations with explicit mutualists in the 1870s, and was one of the primary sources of what was known as "mutualism" from the early 1870s to the present. As for Emerson and Thoreau, there is no consensus that they were in fact anarchists, and plenty of reason to suspect that they were not. Compared to the explicit "no government men" around them, their doctrines are pretty tepid stuff. Libertatia 20:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I was referring to Carson's revised mutualism. I'm not as familiar as I would like to be with historical mutualism, but I'm happy to accept its pre-eminence if what you say is true. I fully support your proposals for the Mutualism section, but giving my lack of familiarity with the subject I'll abstain from editing too heavily there. My basic problem is that Market left-libertarianism has a section at all, and I want to sneak it in somewhere else. We could split the Mll section in three and move Agorism under Ancap and Carson under Mutualism. This would leave geoanarchism without a home, but I'm not sure it really deserves one here. Skomorokh incite 21:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can look at the mutualism article for rough guidelines, but I would be happy to attempt an edit tomorrow, in fairly tight summary style. As for the notability of contemporary left-libertarianism, I suggest you consider the notability of the individuals involved—editors from The Journal of Libertarian Studies and The Freeman, individuals such as Roderick Long with their own Wikipedia pages. New work by Carson just appeared in the Freeman, the journal of the Foundation for Economic Education. A merger that puts Carson in the mutualism section but leaves Tucker in the individualist anarchist section is even more confusing than the present arrangement, since Carson is an avowed Tuckerite. Geoism is another of those minor schools with a lengthy history that isn't likely to go away. And anarchists still love to fight about the Georgist-anarchist fusion, so it's of some general interest. My suggestion for a long time now has been to be inclusive on this page and exhaustive on individual subpages. I continue to think it's a good strategy. Libertatia 21:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is an eminently sensible doctrine. So do you think the status quo is the best solution vis-à-vis association of schools of thought? Skomorokh incite 21:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the current scheme flows relatively well, organizes the material relatively well, and allows us to include links to important sub-pages. That's probably all we should ask of a summary page. Libertatia 21:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to merge Mutualism and Market left-libertarianism sections 

message: There seems to be a strong consensus against merging these sections in this discussion. Operation Spooner has graciously accepted the separation of the sections, on the condition that the scope of the individualist anarchist section be expanded to cover individualist anarchists and individualist anarchist movements of the 20th (and presumably 21st) century. This is quite uncontroversial, with the caveat that the section should be kept from growing too long and thus being given undue weight. The anarcho-capitalist section does not itself appear to be in dispute here. So it seems to me that the only issue is whether or not there are reliable sources for individualist anarchist phenomena from beyond the 19th century. I propose that Operation Spooner (and whoever else is keen on expanding the scope of the section) provide reliable sources here for any additions, so that we can evaluate them and then add the material to the article if unopposed. Does anyone have an objection to this? Skomorokh incite 16:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that we work on the source-list on Talk:individualist anarchism and improve coverage on individualist anarchism before deciding what should be on this page. Jacob Haller 18:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: What form of anarchism is not disputed as to whether it is true anarchism? Albert Meltzer says that individualist anarchists in general, including the 19th century individualst anarchists, are not true anarchists. Benjamin Tucker and several other individualist anarchists say that anarcho-communism is not geniune anarchism. Some anarcho-communists say anarcho-syndicalists aren't true anarchists, and so on. They're all disputed. But, these disputations come from highly biased individuals, such as an anarcho-communists saying individualist anarchists aren't true anarchists, and are in the minority. The general consensus among scholarly publications is that they're all forms of anarchism. If it's going to be stated anarcho-capitalism is disputed then it should also be stated that all the others are disputed as well. Operation Spooner 19:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll all for the article to note that certain people have disputed that others are anarchists. That is fact. It is also fact that most anarchists reject the notion that "anarcho"-capitalism is a form of anarchism. That should be noted, particularly as "anarcho"-capitalism has proved all the main disagreements on Wikipedia! Most who do dispute the anarchism of "anarcho"-capitalism also generally acknowledge that individualist anarchism is a form of anarchism, although they do not agree with it. It is also a fact that the notion that "anarcho"-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism is disputed, so to deny that dispute and simply assert that it is so is pushing a POV. Sorry, merging the two sections is unlikely to happen. I'm happy for the "anarcho"-capitalist section to say that some sources say it is a form of individualist anarchism while others do not. BlackFlag 11:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your claim that it is a fact that most anarchists reject anarcho-capitalism as being a form of anarchism is incoherent on its face, because you're excluding the opinion of anarcho-capitalists by assuming that they're not anarchists. In other words, you're not asking anarcho-capitalists. So you're begging the question. As I pointed out, I don't care whether the anarcho-captalism section is merged or not. I would think an anarcho-capitalist would want anarcho-capitalism to have its own section so that the doctrine is highlighted, instead of just mentioning what it really is, i. e. one of the many variations of individualistic forms of anarchism. But individualist anarchists such as Rothbard should be discussed under individualist anarchism also because they're are plenty of references saying his doctrines are individualist anarchist. There is no other possible category for anarcho-capitalism but individualist for anyone that categorizes forms of anarchism under the individualist/communitarian categories, because they're is no denying that it's individualistic rather than socialistic meaning they will allow individuals to hold property as individuals rather than denying them this liberty and assuming common ownership. Operation Spooner 14:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here we go again! Look, it is simple. There is no consensus that Rothbard is an individualist anarchist -- Rothbard himself explicitly denied it! Combine this with the other sources which agree with him (John Clark, Colin Ward, Peter Marshall, An Anarchist FAQ, other anarchists, etc.) then it is clear that there is no consensus to the claim that "anarcho"-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism. I do love the way that certain people are simply ignoring the fact that there is no consensus on this issue. Also, I do love the way you dismiss Tucker's self-proclaimed socialism. And, for your information, communist-anarchists explicitly argued that individuals could hold property as individuals within a system of common ownership. I'm assuming that makes them "individualist" anarchists as well? As it stands, "anarcho"-capitalism has its own section -- there is no need to mention them in the individualist anarchist section -- particularly as they are distinct tendencies. BlackFlag 09:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then, by your reasoning, since anarchocapitalism has a disputed status by other anarchists (including the aforementioned Anarchist FAQ) saying that it's not a form of anarchism, we should remove anarchocapitalism from the anarchism section. However, that's been discussed to death and the consensus among those here is that it is a form of anarchism. Thus, it seems that this is the same tune, different words. --Knight of BAAWA 14:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  There is a consensus that Rothbard is an individualist anarchist. I've yet to see anyone call him a communitarian anarchist. Rothbard did not deny that he was an individualist. He said he wanted to call himself that but didn't want his doctrines confused with Tucker's. Tolstoy rejected the term anarchist for himself, but there is still a consensus that he was an anarchist. Same for Godwin. What a person calls himself is not really important. What is important, in terms of Wikipedia, is what the references call them. Now there are claims from an extreme minority that anarcho-capitalism is not a form of anarchism. But if it is a form of anarchism, which the consensus of references does indicate, then of course it's an individualist form. I don't know anyone could dispute that. It's an extremely individualist form of anarchism. And, contrary to your claim of me, I do not dismiss Tuckers's self-labeling as a socialist. That's a prime point actually. Even though he called himself a socialist, the references call him an individualist, because he was not in favor of socialized ownership. He was using what is now an outmoded definition of socialism. Socialism today means socialized ownership. Operation Spooner 18:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Now I've read much of Rothbard's work, and if you can cite where he denies being an individualist anarchist, that will settle things. I would have no problem with it, and I suspect others wouldn't, either. But what's more at issue here is the fact that he is listed on the Individualist Anarchist page as an Individualist Anarchist, and his own page has him listed as an Individualist Anarchist. So your dismissal of the consensus of the pages seems a little like POV pushing.  Please don't try some silly blame game, ok. That's not mature and won't get us anywhere. --Knight of BAAWA 13:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is the reference. "I am . . . strongly tempted to call myself an 'individualist anarchist', except for the fact that Spooner and Tucker have in a sense pre-empted that name for their doctrine and that from that doctrine I have certain differences." ["The Spooner-Tucker Doctrine: An Economist's View", pp. 5-15, Journal of Libertarian Studies, vol. 20, no. 1, p. 7] Happy now? I would also point to Walter Block calling Kevin Carson a Marxist as relevant, as Carson is attacked for expressing individualist anarchist positions. BlackFlag 14:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rothbard continues "Politically, these differences are minor, and therefore the system I advocate is very close to theirs; but economically, the differences are substantial, and this means that my view of the consequences of putting our more or less common system into practice is very far from theirs." So what Rothbard is saying is that there are areas where Spooner/Tucker and he diverge, but they are still rather close politically. Thus, Rothbard is saying that were it not for the pre-emption of the name, he'd call himself an individualist anarchist. But frankly, this is much like taking back the term "liberal" or "libertarian" from those who have used it incorrectly. I would say that Rothbard is admitting that he is an individualist anarchist of a different bend. Oh--a full quote is better next time. You don't want to be accused of quote-mining. Just FYI, ok. --Knight of BAAWA 13:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Except, of course, the key issue is that Rothbard had the opportunity to say that he was an "individualist anarchist" but did not. This was because of differences, both political and economic. Thus Rothbard is saying that because of these differences he could not call himself an individualist anarchist. As for the full quote, well, the relevant part was quoted. Here we have Rothbard explicitly refusing to call himself an individualist anarchist and yet people are still denying he said it! Well, what can I say! BlackFlag 09:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except, of course, the key issue actually is what is currently thought of as individualist anarchism. It's not specifically what Spooner and Tucker conceived anymore. Rothbard stood for individualism. He liked that notion. Further, your quote-mine, deliberate or otherwise, needed to be pointed out as you missed a relevant part. Knight of BAAWA 13:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  How about this: Rothbard is in the line of thought spawned from the individualist anarchists. --Knight of BAAWA 15:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well..."spawned" might be a bit POV... Libertatia 21:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to be pretty well accepted by sources quoted. At any rate, I was just trying to get BlackFlag to offer something and get this all hammered out. --Knight of BAAWA 22:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: That's not a good analogy because individualist anarchism is category, not a specific doctrine. Operation Spooner 18:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a fine analogy, because "individualist anarchism" is, in fact, (and this is what Rothbard alludes to) a specific doctrine. That use of the phrase is well established. The fact that one can also use the phrase to designate some broader array of market anarchisms does not mean that there is any consensus that this is the appropriate usage. More to the point, in this entry, the separate use of "individualist anarchist" and "anarcho-capitalist," within a general historical account, provides readers with more information than lumping categories would do. It also maintains a distinctions between schools that pretty much everyone involved considers significantly distinct. You are insisting on an approach which decreases our ability to present a great deal of historical and ideological information elegantly. Libertatia 21:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The  source in this article (Ward, Colin. Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction) says that the are "several traditions of individualist anarchism," so no, individualist anarchism is not a specific doctrine. It's a group of specific doctrines. Just like "anarchism" is a group of doctrines. Operation Spooner 21:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This would be the Colin Ward book in which he argued that Rothbard is "the most aware of the actual anarchist tradition among the anarcho-capitalist apologists" he may be "aware of a tradition, but he is singularly unaware of the old proverb that freedom for the pike means death for the minnow." The individualist anarchists "differed from free-market liberals in their absolute mistrust of American capitalism, and in their emphasis on mutualism" and were "busy social inventors exploring the potential of autonomy." The "American 'libertarians' . . . inventiveness seems to be limited to providing an ideology for untrammelled market capitalism." (Anarchism: A Short Introduction, pages 67, 2-3 and 69). He seems pretty clear that "anarcho"-capitalism is not the same as individualist anarchism. BlackFlag 10:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's interesting how you leave out parts the quotes. Let's look at the whole quote, which you chopped up: "There are unsuprisingly, several traditions of individualist anarchism, one of them deriving from the 'conscious egoism' of the German writer Max Stirner (1806-56), and another from a remarkable series of 19th century American figures who argued that in protecting our autonomy and association with others for common advantages, we are promoting the good of all. These thinkers differed from free-market liberals in their absolute mustrust of American capitalism, and in their emphasis on mutualism. In the late 20th century the world 'libertarian', which people holding such a viewpoiont used as an alternative to the word anarchism' was approporated by a new group of American thinkers, who are disucssed in Chapter 7." I don't see anything in there about anarcho-capitalism or Rothbard, or that Rothbard is not an individualist. The "free-market liberals" that he is talking about appears to be the classical liberals, not anarcho-capitalists. When he starts talking about the "late 20th century" is when he starts talking about the new individualist anarchism, as can be seen in Chapter 7 where he says "Some time later, in the 1970's, a series of books, from academics rather than activists, proclaimed a different style of American libertarianism. They were Robert Paul Woff...David Friedman...and Murray Rothbard..." He's saying it's a different style of libertarianism than the libertarianism of the 19th century, such as Tucker's. It's clear to me that he's including all these people under individualist anarchism. They're in the individualist anarchism chapter. Operation Spooner 19:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Moreover, each individualist anarchist has his own specific doctrine.. unless there are two that happen to agree on everything. Operation Spooner 21:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So there is no such thing as individualist anarchism, just individual anarchists who happen to support some kind of "market" and some kind of "property"? Doubtful. As has been noted by Libertia, there is a specific doctrine called individualist anarchism which includes a whole range of people (Tucker, Lum, Yarrows, Green, etc.). That developed in the 19th century and considered itself part of the wider socialist/reform movement. This was the same with social anarchism (Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin). In the 20th century, Rothbard came along and invented "anarcho-capitalism" (which selectively took elements of individualist anarchism, although the major influence seems to be Austrian economics). He explicitly refused to call his ideology "individualist anarchism" precisely because he recognised it was a different theory. Equally important, most anarchists who hear about "anarcho-capitalism" reject it as a form of anarchism. Now, to ignore all this and lump individualist anarchism and "anarcho"-capitalism together as "individualist anarchism" not only will bred confusion, it ignores the fact that there is no consensus that it is so. So there is no consensus that a merge should happen. It is not factually correct, for a start, given the fact that many anarchists (including individualists) reject such a merging. BlackFlag 10:20, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you still don't understand. "Individualist anarchism" is not a doctrine anymore than "anarchism" is a doctrine. It's a category. If you're a radical individualist, meaning you oppose the control of collectives over individuals, such as the control that social anarchists which to exercise over the individual to restrict his liberties to self-ownership and to own the fruits of his labor, then you are an individualist anarchist. That's basic individualist anarchism. Anyone who believes that is an individualist anarchist. Other than that each individualist anarchist have more complex or developed doctrines. Some of them call their individualist anarchism by unique names, such as Tucker calling his "anarchistic socialism," Rothbard calling his "anarcho-capitalism," and Stirner calling his "egoism," and so on. Operation Spooner 19:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested compromise 

message: Link is somewhere in article, cannot edit until found and deleted. I can't find it. *sigh* Zazaban 22:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's under Especifismo in Recent developments. Shit, can't reply with that title unchanged; added space. Jacob Haller 02:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It looks like the site was improperly added to the Metawiki spam blocklist (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Spam_blacklist). Jacob Haller 02:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently one editor cross-posting material one day is "quite a lot of cross-wiki spamming," so it has been indefinitely blocked. That doesn't invite misuse of the blacklist, that is misuse. Jacob Haller 18:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hope you are enjoying the ongoing enclosure of Wikipedia. If you don't see the signs all around you, then it should become more obvious soon. Wikipedia is becoming a victim of its own success and the whispers of their lawyers. Thousands of entries have had pictures and graphics removed, because Wikipedia has decided that they won't even fight for a Fair Use interpretation of using photos and graphics. You can also see the end of Wikipedia in all of the new rules and regulations, such as the increasing hostility towards external links. People should think about joining alternative wiki projects, such as Infoshop's OpenWiki. Chuck0 01:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Chuck, I messed about with the Openwiki, but there are certain gaps, e,g. the lack of citation systems, which make it very hard to use. Jacob Haller 03:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Should we put up an RfC on the use of Metawiki spam-blockers for censorship? Because with A-infos, NEFAC, Anarkismo, and who knows whom else, targeted, it definitely stinks of censorship. Jacob Haller 17:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think we definitely should. I don't really know how that works, but if you post the RfC and link it here, I would like to be part of that discussion. Aelffin 17:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  http://www.nefac. net 

message: I've just added the Haymarket Riot just above the Russian Revolution. I hope you guys like it. Reply with any other suggestions
The great,
TobiTo Kakshi 19:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haymarket Riot added! 

message: Giving people a heads-up. Jacob Haller 17:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.Skomorokh incite 23:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to merge [[major conflicts within anarchist thought]] into [[issues in anarchism]]

message: Demarchism is currently listed under the category of Democracy, because it in a way is still a system of government, with a ruling body, but it is a system in which everyone has equal political power, and can be picked to serve, so I believe it belongs in the anarchy category. Does anyone agree with this? I think it's kind of hiding on the democracy page (out of place) where people of anarchist beliefs will never look. It (or at least a link to it) belongs on this page IMO. Jiminezwaldorf 06:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't be opposed to a link to it, for example in the sidebar under "Related". I'm a little wary of including it in the main article partly for size reasons and partly as it doesn't seem to have had much relation to the anarchist movement itself. Libertarian communism, for example, is much more closely associated with anarchism yet is relatively absent from the article. --Black Butterfly 09:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. I'll wait a little while to see if anyone opposes it. Regarding Libertarian communism I would definitely like to see that elaborated on more on this page, but I'm sure that issue has been debated ad nauseum.  Jiminezwaldorf 19:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I oppose this on the grounds that it is original research on your part. If you can find a reliable source that considers demarchism a form of anarchism, then by all means lets include it, but until then it should remain independent of references to anarchism. Regards, Skomorokh incite 20:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a link to an article about demarchy that I read a few years ago: http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/95sa.html As I recall, the author argues that demarchy is a way of making decisions that is consistent with anarchism (like consensus and federations employing strictly mandated delegates), but he does not go so far as to say that it is a form of anarchism as such. -Father Inire 18:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Demarchism as a form of Anarchism

message: I re-title "Origins" to "Early Anarchism" and moved the Proudhon and First Intnernational material up there.  I also merged the Collectivist Anarchism material with the First International.  Just trying to get this article in some kind of tamed order.  Still not positive if this is the right way to go, so feel free to revert.  Bacchiad 13:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm inclined to revert. While I see no problems merging collectivist anarchism into the First International, the early part of the article was supposed to be a history of the philosophical development of anarchism, chronologically ordered from Godwin to Mutualism to Individualist and so on; the anarchist movement was confined to the latter part of the article. While there's an argument to be made that the article could be best arranged otherwise, what you have done now is to confuse matters, so that Mutualism no longer appears as a school of thought (in spite of Kevin Carson et al), nor is the First International given mention as important to anarchism as a social movement. The Origins section was intended to give some information on the pre-modern and earliest evocations of anarchistic philosophy, before it got off the ground as a significant philosophy/movement in the 18th and 19th centuries. Do you propose an alternate structure to the article? New ideas are always welcome Skomorokh incite 13:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Strongly inclined to revert both the rearrangements and at least some of the cuts. I understand the purpose of the old organization - I don't understand the purpose of the new one. Jacob Haller 17:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jiggering around with sections 

message: Given that the article is taken up mostly (~40kb) with the Schools of thought section, I think it is wise to examine the possibility of an Anarchist schools of thought sub-article, which would not need to be as tightly trimmed as the section here is, could include far more schools such as philosophical anarchism, anarcha-feminism, platformism, crypto-anarchism, infoanarchism, Buddhist anarchism, Christian anarchism, Jewish anarchism, black anarchism etc. and could go into detail about the interrelationships of the schools, interlinking with the Issues in anarchism sub-articles. I've created a sandbox version to give an indication of what such an article would look like to start with: User:Skomorokh/Anarchist schools of thought (Schools of thought taken from this oldid:161766460, recent developments section based on this oldid:150015292.)
What I want to know is:
#Do editors feel this is generally a good idea? Please reply with Support or Oppose.
#If we create a Schools of thought sub-article, what should replace the section here? 
Skomorokh incite 10:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Support.  My personal preference would be to take a more historical approach to the article in general.  I haven't yet thought of a better alternative, but I don't like the primary breakdown being a miscellany of Schools of Thought, as if Anarchism is some kind of scholastic philosophy.  So a { { main article | anarchist schools of thought } } thing would be great.  Bacchiad 12:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Provisionally titled Anarchist political theory.  Bacchiad 12:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Oppose. The current structure has the virtue of combining a historical approach with the "schools of thought" approach. The split is likely to leave this article essentially a duplicate of the anarchist history article. Libertatia 15:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I had in mind was a replacement, not removal of the section, in line with the "Issues and debates" section and Issues in anarchism. Furthermore, the vast majority of the schools of thought section references predominantly historical schools of thought barely active today Skomorokh incite 15:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Oppose. Creates an imaginary divide between anarchist beliefs. Owen 01:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What on earth do you mean? What was proposed was a summary of the section, with the subject given its own ful article. e.g. one paragraph on mutualism, anarcho-communism, green anarchism etc. instead of three. How does that create imaginary divides? Skomorokh incite 11:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Ack. What exactly were we "discussing" above? Libertatia 17:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether or not it would be a good idea to do as User:Bacchiad subsequently boldly did. Skomorokh incite 00:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I would strongly oppose it. Article in its current form is no longer too long. It has 64 kilobytes, and further cutting of content would cripple it. I will remove too long tag, since it's redundant now. Article on schools of thought can, and will be, expanded so soon it won't be just a copy of this article. -- Vision  Thing -- 18:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recognize that the article is no longer too long, strictly speaking, but that's because parts of it have been summarized — namely History of anarchism and Issues in anarchism — while other sections — Cultural phenomena, Criticisms, See also — have been radically reduced or removed entirely. The upshot of this is that the two remaining extensive sections, Schools of thought and Social movement, comprise a far greater proportion of the article now (~60kb) than they were intended to in the article's original state (~120kb). Bearing in mind that there is a whole lot of information about anarchism not covered in the article that perhaps should be — for example anarchist activism, the relation of anarchism to freethinking/punk/situationism, the rise and decline of anarchist movements — I think it is uncontroversial to assert that these two sections are alloted undue weight and ought to be summarized. Thoughts? Skomorokh incite 19:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, schools of thought is the core section of this article because it explains how different schools see anarchism. Further reduction of that section would give undue weight to the rest of the article. -- Vision  Thing -- 20:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think the article was too long in the first place. Are we low on disk space or something? Operation Spooner 20:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check it out: WP:Article size. Skomorokh incite 20:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radical proposal: split Schools of thought 

message: Since the Anarchist schools of thought section is a fait accompli, it is redundant to discuss the prospect. At present that article is a slightly longer version of the Schools of thought section here, duplicating the majority of the material. As the article length demands summary style, what should the Schools of thought section here be composed of? Would editors oppose summarizing it in the same manner as Issues in anarchism is summarized here? Skomorokh incite 16:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ack. What exactly were we "discussing" above? Libertatia 17:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether or not it would be a good idea to do as User:Bacchiad subsequently boldly did. Skomorokh incite 00:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I would strongly oppose it. Article in its current form is no longer too long. It has 64 kilobytes, and further cutting of content would cripple it. I will remove too long tag, since it's redundant now. Article on schools of thought can, and will be, expanded so soon it won't be just a copy of this article. -- Vision  Thing -- 18:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recognize that the article is no longer too long, strictly speaking, but that's because parts of it have been summarized — namely History of anarchism and Issues in anarchism — while other sections — Cultural phenomena, Criticisms, See also — have been radically reduced or removed entirely. The upshot of this is that the two remaining extensive sections, Schools of thought and Social movement, comprise a far greater proportion of the article now (~60kb) than they were intended to in the article's original state (~120kb). Bearing in mind that there is a whole lot of information about anarchism not covered in the article that perhaps should be — for example anarchist activism, the relation of anarchism to freethinking/punk/situationism, the rise and decline of anarchist movements — I think it is uncontroversial to assert that these two sections are alloted undue weight and ought to be summarized. Thoughts? Skomorokh incite 19:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, schools of thought is the core section of this article because it explains how different schools see anarchism. Further reduction of that section would give undue weight to the rest of the article. -- Vision  Thing -- 20:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think the article was too long in the first place. Are we low on disk space or something? Operation Spooner 20:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check it out: WP:Article size. Skomorokh incite 20:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section split 

message: I think the individualist anarchism section needs expansion. This is a whole wing of anarchism and includes many theorists. What this has been cut down to lately, does not do it justice at all, so I plan on adding more material to it. Operation Spooner 16:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You've contributed excellent material to the section, but now that the section has been split into Anarchist political theory. There is a potentially major discussion underway here to decide the structure of the article and the fate of the Schools of thought section - in a few days or weeks there might very well be consensus to radically re-organise the article, risking losing any new material you might want to add. Might I suggest you add any new material to Anarchist political theory, where the topic unquestionably deserves more scope and your contributions wont be at risk of removal. That way, all material is preserved, and in the case that there is consensus to expand the Ind-anarchism section here, the new material can easily be copied from Anarchist political theory. Is this acceptable? Skomorokh incite 16:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems really strange. An article discussing only political theory? So economic theory would not be discussed there? I don't understand how political theory could be isolated from the economic theory and make a whole article out of it. Operation Spooner 17:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you see the discussion above, the name wasn't my idea. Like Criticisms of anarchism, Issues in anarchism, History of anarchism, it is a simple split-off of the topic hitherto referred to as  "Schools of thought", so that the topic can be treated with the length it deserves (without being hacked down by the likes of me!). So do you agree to focus your extensions of individualist anarchism in that article while we decide what to do with this one? Skomorokh incite 18:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think I want to be involved in that article. One general anarchism article is enough for me, and it seems hardly anyone read spinoff articles, so I don't think it's worth putting much effort into something that hardly anyone is going to read. I think more exhaustive detail about individualist anarchism should be in the main individualist anarchism article, and the section in this article should be expanded a bit more. I think also that there should be a communitarian anarchism section, like there is an individualist section. That way anarcho-communism and "collectivist anarchism," and some others can be all under that one main heading. Operation Spooner 19:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I think pretty much all types of anarchists are in agreement that you can't discuss one without the other. Feel free to change it the title and redirect if there's consensus on a better one.  Bacchiad 18:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Individualist anarchism

message: According to the Manual of style, articles should avoid Criticism sections. I have moved the Criticisms section of this article here:
:The theory and practice of anarchism has been controversial since it came to prominence in the 19th century. Some of the criticisms made of anarchism come from the interests it opposes, such as governments. Other criticisms have been made internally by other anarchists or by political movements that appear to share similar goals, such as Marxism. Many question the idealist nature of anarchism, and have misgivings about its practical application in the real world. Some point to anarchism's historical inability to establish a viable non-state society. Some social scientists note that hierarchy appears to be synonymous with human civilization, although others note that many indigenous societies have been largely egalitarian. Others, including some adherents of Ayn Rand's Objectivism movement, claim that anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms and that true capitalism requires an ultraminimal government for a military, law enforcement, and an objective judiciary. Force, according to proponents of this argument, cannot be a market service.
:Also, while libertarianism is an individualist philosophy, many of the most prominent libertarian thinkers have voiced fundamental objections to anarchism.http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=10711 For libertarian minarchists, the government's proper role is to create and enforce a framework of law that maximizes individual liberty, notably by prohibiting force and fraud. In Capitalism and Freedom, economist Milton Friedman made the case for economic freedom as a precondition for political freedom, while claiming that "the need for government…arises because absolute freedom is impossible. However, attractive anarchy may be as a philosophy, it is not feasible in a world of imperfect men".
It's mostly unreferenced and irrelevant, but if any valuable material from it can be integrated into the main body of the article, it's here for the taking. Skomorokh incite 15:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms section removed 

message: It seems to me that collectivist anarchism is not really a school of thought per se.  It seems to be a description of Bakunin and his friends' position, coined primarily by its opponents (e.g. Kropotkin).   After the First International, is anyone a Collectivist Anarchist who isn't also an Anarcho-syndicalist?  Bacchiad 17:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anarchist supporters of Parecon? Jacob Haller 19:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Collectivist anarchism

message: I just editted the introduction to note that many anarchist do not consider anarcho-capitalism to be anarchist. I recognize the importance of including anarcho-capitalism in the discussion, and don't wish to have it removed, but it is unsound practice to mention it without provisos. The majority of anarchists take violent offense to being identified with anarcho-capitalists in any way, and so to gloss over their ojections entirely is to give a very false impression of the relationship between anarchism and anarcho-capitalism. 
I haven't posted in editing talk before, so I apologize if I am not following proper procedure here.
Zweidinge 16:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your source (AFAQ) is not valid, and anarcho-capitalism is not only disputed form of anarchism so it shouldn't be singled out in the intro. -- Vision  Thing -- 16:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Vision Thing about the intro. However, I don't see why the section on anarcho-capitalism can't reflect both viewpoints. 158.223.71.65 16:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, that comment was me, not logged in (timed out), as were changes to article which sought to give such a balance. BobFromBrockley 17:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me it's already discussed in Issues in anarchism, as well as Anarchism and capitalism. The ancap writeup in anarchism is just supposed to be about ancap, not about the dispute about it. Knight of BAAWA 17:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See especially Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism. Skomorokh incite 19:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: As I said, anarcho-capitalism is not only disputed form of anarchism. However, only his status is questioned in this article. Either all disputes must be mentioned in relevant section(s) or none. -- Vision  Thing -- 17:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If in doubt, and there are reliable sources, lets err on the side of inclusion. If a given section gets too long, or a subject gets undue weight, we can always summarize and move to one of the multitude of sub-articles. Skomorokh incite 19:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This particular criticism is already noted in "Internal issues and debates" section. So we are erring on the side of inclusion twice. Why do we need special section for issues if we are going to mention them separately? -- Vision  Thing -- 20:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I think if it's going to be included in the anarcho-capitalism section, then it should also be noted in the individualist anarchism section in general. It's individualist anarchism in general that some anarcho-communists haveed claim is not true anarchism. It's not restricted to Rothbard's doctrines. I'm wondering if it should be noted that anarcho-communism is disputed too, which it has historically been by individualists. Operation Spooner 19:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, status of anarcho-communism within anarchism is also heavly disputed by individual anarchists. Also, anarcho-syndicalism is seen as anachronism and obsolete by many. -- Vision  Thing -- 20:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Refs? Because I've more often found sources which object to a-c without objecting to individualist anarchism in general, than ones which object to individualist anarchism in general. Jacob Haller 00:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. This discussion is either referenced or pointless; you decide which. Skomorokh incite 02:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, since the intro is giving a definition of anarchism, then it should be mentioned that different groups define the term differently. The prime difference being that socialist anarchists define anarchism as "opposition to all hierarchic power relationships" while laymen and ancaps use it in the more restricted sense of "opposition to nation-states". Aelffin 19:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Because the individualist anarchists were socialists (a left-wing branch of libertarianism). They were not capitalists in the modern sense of the term. The debate between individualist and communist anarchism was a split between two different types of socialism. However, individualist anarchism died out, and communist anarchism almost died out. The current movement evolved out of "anarchists without adjectives" with influences from both of the other historical branches. Regardless, all of these branches evolved out of socialism. Ancap, on the other hand, evolved out of neolibertarianism (a right-wing version of libertarianism). As such, it is a different movement from anarchism proper. Yes, it was influenced by one of the three branches of anarchism proper. But it also rejected some of the defining tennants of individualist anarchism, therefore it cannot properly be called a branch of individualist anarchism. It is an individualist-influenced branch of neolibertarianism. Aelffin 20:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  anarcho-capitalism 

message: Anarchists may be interested in US House Resolution 1955. It has grave implications for Anarchists, Activists, Communists, Socialists, Labor organizers, everyone. If the Bill passes the senate, I want it on the front page. Any assistance would be appreciated. Vert et Noirtalk 04:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  US House Resolution 1955