Talk:Anglo-Spanish War (1585–1604)

message: I was under the impression that Sir Francis Drake was executed by James I, and therefore could not have been killed in an expedition.
:No, Francis Drake died of dysentery in the Caribbean in 1596. You may be thinking of Sir Walter Raleigh.
Are there books written about this entire war, not just the armada battle?
I don't think so. J.H. Eliot Europe Divided 1559-1598 (1968), although old-style and not covering the entire period, is still an excellent read and covers European aspects that most English language histories gloss over.
*I believe Grenville's Revenge went down in a storm during the Azores battle, along with many Spanish vessels. And Drake and Hawkins weren't killed, but died of disease. I'll add a bit more about Ireland.--shtove 13:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: There should be more about the Netherlands, Calais and Brittany.--shtove 22:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Land campaigns 

message: Considering that the outcome of the war was more favorable to Spain if not a Spanish victory, the picture of the Armada defeat atop the infobox will give a wrong impression to anyone who doesn't read the whole article. It might be better to use a pic of a Spanish victory or at least of a neutral battle. SamEV 02:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means, providing such a picture can be found. Albrecht 02:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Best luck to you. :) SamEV 11:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd not read your comments till now. I respectfully decline to give you any more of a reply than this. Good day. SamEV 07:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

text: His tone was uncalled for. And yes, English history could be more objective, though I suppose this can be said about every country, perhaps. SamEV (talk) 02:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: I think Portugal should be included as ally of Spain in the war box, as it happened.Câmara 14:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portugal on Spanish Side 

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Got England nowhere? You mean aside from securing Independence from The Pope and Catholic Spain?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PlentifulOnions (talk • contribs) 16:07, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Whether the English Armada was Smaller or Bigger ? Please verify it and change it in the Article accordingly. Abdul raja (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 14:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Bigger/Smaller

message: There are only four citations in this entire, rather long, article. Entire paragraphs of opinion are presented with no citation or justification, in particular the 'effects' section but also others. I have also removed the uncited claim for the war being a Spanish victory. I do not think this is an opinion widely held by historians, so I have left just the specific effects of the Treaty of London. 94.193.35.68 (talk) 18:58, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation needed

message: "Philip and the Catholic Church considered Mary, Queen of Scots, a Catholic cousin of Elizabeth's, to be the rightful Queen of England. In 1567, Mary was imprisoned and forced to abdicate the Scottish throne in favour of her infant son, James. Thereafter she fled to England, where Elizabeth had her imprisoned. Over the next two decades, opponents of Elizabeth and James continually plotted to have Mary placed on the throne of one or both kingdoms."
    
Removed this for a few reasons. Firstly it isn't true that Mary was forced to abdicate. Elizabeth never named a succession and Mary therefore remained heir presumptive until the moment she was executed. Secondly there is no evidence Philip would consider Mary a preferable ruler to Elizabeth. Indeed Philip protected Elizabeth from excommunication until 1568 (Spanish loan seizure) and even attempted to marry her. It is also of note that Mary was essentially French and a close tie between England and France could prove disastrous for Spain as it would produce a power block capable of directly confronting the Spanish Empire. Lack of Spanish support can be seen through the 1571 Ridolfi Plot in which Spanish support for regime change was non existent.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by THKH (talk • contribs) 15:51, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Causes

message: Both sides seem to be overstating the financial devastation of the war for England and Spain alike and likewise overstating the level to which it contributed to the decline (or ascendancy) of either. On the financial side, yes James I in England inherited a debt of roughly £400,000, and as John Guy in particular has discussed in his treatments, there were further less obvious financial obligations left-over from Elizabeth I's reign to fund the war effort, such as the sale of offices to wealthy nobles and the sales of the royal lands themselves. Although this burden was hardly helpful at the start of the Stuart period, it was hardly devastating either. Henry VII had inherited crippling debts and a war-torn England at the start of the Tudor period, devastated by the Wars of the Roses, but was able to bring the country back to solvency in good order, so there is no reason that the early Stuarts should have been handicapped by comparison. Also much of England's hardship and financial pressure in the early 1600's came about due to poor harvests and epidemics, which cannot be blamed on the war. 
Likewise for Spain. Yes, Spain during the war had taxation and revenue problems with increasing dependence on the bankers from Genoa and other centres. But as Geoffrey Parker and other period historians have made clear, Spain's issues with solvency had already been severe decades before the war with England, with a failure to collect and manage revenues from regions outside Castile. Also the problem was especially exacerbated, ironically, by Spain's imperial gains, through uncontrolled inflation and currency fluctuations due to increasing imports of New World silver. And like England, Spain's position was further aggravated by poor harvests and a plague at the turn of the century, likewise factors that cannot be causally connected to the war. Yet as with England, Spain's financial position, whilst imperiled, was hardly crippling- Parker himself, in Europe in Crisis 1598–1648, makes it clear that 17th c. Spain ironically had less in the way of tax and other financial revolts compared to European peers. New World silver and other trading goods, despite the distortions to Spain's economy, continued to flow in and fund Spanish expeditions through the 17th c., even as the Dutch began to wrest away sea supremacy by mid-century. And despite the failure of reforms and general poor management by Philip III, Spain continued to find the resources to administer overseas colonies and militarily defeat enemies (for example Cadiz in 1625) in major engagements through the 1620's and after.
Same issue with overstating the balance-of-power impact on either side. England's ambitions were certainly hindered, but in no way devastated by the costs and burdens of the war when the treaty was signed in 1604. England's maritime trade, both in the North Sea and the trans-Atlantic trade, increased at a regular pace. And although the Stuarts obviously encountered financial and constitutional crises in the subsequent decades, it is contentious to lay these principally at the feet of the Anglo-Spanish War in 1604. By most even-handed measures of national performance, England continued to gain economic and geopolitical importance in the Stuart period that followed the war.
Likewise, again, for Spain. It is far too contentious to assign a causal importance to the Anglo-Spanish War of 1585-1604 in Spain's perceived decline many decades into the 17th century. It is indeed fair and accurate to state that Spain's colonial monopoly (or Spanish claims to it) could not be asserted in the 1600's, and that ships from rival countries- France as well as England and the Netherlands- would carry on an increasing share of the trans-Atlantic trade. However, claims of a decline are too easily countered by indicators of ongoing and even increasing strength that lasted well into mid-century. Whilst Spain's overall share of the trans-Atlantic trade declined, the country's overall trade and shipping still very much grew esp. under Philip IV and remained by far the most dominant of the European powers. Spain under Philip IV was also unequivocally successful in defeating England's attempt to invade Cadiz in 1625, and to capture Breda the same year despite fierce resistance by English and Dutch soldiers, then to launch a successful naval offensive to capture St. Kitts from the English and French a few years later. Spain's military and tactical management thus brought about crushing victories over all major rivals less than three decades after the Treaty of London in 1604. Note this achievement came about despite the continuing failure of Spanish financial and political reforms by both Philip III and Philip IV in the intervening decades, as well as further damage to Spain's position from corruption, general fiscal mismanagement, commercial competition and inflation. Even after defeat by France at Rocroi and Netherlands at the Downs- which occurred many decades after 1604- Spain continued to be a powerful rival to both, and as shown by Spanish victories in for example War of Jenkins Ear, also remained a constant thorn in the side of the English navy well into the following century. So even making such a strong claim as that of Spanish decline decades into the 1600's is highly debatable at best, leave alone identifying the Anglo-Spanish War of 1585-1604 as a proximate cause of such a questionable conclusion. (Notably, England's reversals in the 1620's battles were in fact a proximate cause of the English Civil War, something that did not happen in Spain.)
I therefore think it most advisable to refrain from making strongly-worded conclusions about financial impact or geopolitical balance-of-power in the aftermath of the war and the Treaty of London, as there is too little in the way of evidence or consensus for that in the case of either country. Both encountered financial hardships which nonetheless were not new, not crippling and did not precipitate severe crises which clearly had more easily identifiable proximate and underlying causes. Likewise, the geopolitical balance of power remained very much in flux for both countries after 1604, and given Spain's military and economic dominance well into the 17th c., by some measures even increasing, it is too contentious to assert importance of the 1585-1604 war in causing Spanish decline or even to assert such decline at all. Best to simply focus on the specifics and finish with a balanced statement of the challenges and the conflicts that followed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by NDelhier (talk • contribs) 06:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Many of your claims are plausible. The problem with changing the text while keeping the original references is that it creates a false impression that your changes are supported by the cited source. If you have an alternative perspective, support it with another reliable source. Otherwise, you run a risk of misrepresentation. Lachrie (talk) 08:05, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article starts off with Philip worried about what was going on in England in the 1560s, just as he was undoubtedly worried about what was happening in France and the Holy Roman Empire with these new fangled heresies, and then there were the expansive Ottomans to worry about. But his main concern was always the troubles in his own territories, the Netherlands and this war was an annex to that. I think the only way to get this article into some order is to strip it down to the basics, just tell the events of this war, and drop the aftermath, otherwise somebody is soon going to explain how this war caused D-Day. Provocateur (talk) 09:43, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moderating concluding statements on the conflict