Talk:Crimean Gothic

message: does that make it a Satem language? ;) dab (ᛏ) 17:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Rursus 14:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Appears CG borrowed several numerals. Busbecq didn't give a translation for the song lyrics, frustating the tokhes off modern scholars left with bare nothing else to analyze the syntax of the language. 惑乱 分からん 13:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

text: By all appearances, sada and hazer are borrowings from (Scythian/Sarmatian/)Alanic (compare Ossetic). I remember reading that the song has been interpreted as Turkic, which sounds anything but far-fetched, but I can't remember where at the moment. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: sada, hazer?

message: I have heard the storry from a hungarian count that some of the gothic may have come to middle europe with them and where settelt together with jews ( chasars ?) on the eastern border of hungary, today the middle part of Lower Austria and Styria. It would explain why the bavarian colonialisation in this area was going so smoothly without wars. The Austrian would than be a bavarian gothic mixture and the background of jiddisch ,witch  i as Austrian can understand very easely, would rather be gothic and not german, as the Chasar inhabited the former gothic areas. It would explain too, why their is no genetical evidenz of the chasars in the jewish genes.
Thinking of this a prooved my own Austrian dialect to the gothic words and i must say that 60 % is very close some words only exist in Austrian. So ist the Austrian word for speaking angrily "meutern" witch is close to the gothic word of speaking. I am not a linguist, but I dont know any german dialect witch uses this word like this. The concept of the articels is close to the Austrian dialect witch use "te" (e like ending) for women and plural and "tea" (a like bar )for man. All other wordforms can at least exist in forms of the Austrian dialect.
J.
:Never heard it before, it sounds dubious, and without any linguistic background to back it up, it'd anyway classify as original research. 惑乱 分からん 01:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Meutern sounds similar to English "mutter" of roughly similar meaning, btw. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Austrian-Gothic connection

message: The East Gothic/Crimean Gothic language may been extinct for two centuries,  until recent times has ethnic anthropology accepted the idea of East Goths survived well into the 20th century. The question of how the Estgotes came to Eastern Europe and thrived with their language, a relic of the once-existent East Gothic tribes of the 1000's AD, would remain unknown and theorized until the answer is discovered. 
There was speculation of the "lost Swedes" of western Ukraine (as well in Estonia, Belarus, Russia and the Crimea under Greek rule) are direct descendants of the Vikings or Scandinavians whom managed to retain a separate ethnocultural identity, but in small villages and isolated from the Slavic linguistic majority until the late 1800's. In Gotland, there are Lutheran church bells that actually came from the Ukraine in 1913 or 1914 serves as a reminder of a people whom returned to their ancestral homeland. 
I've read the National Geographic August 1973 article Gotland, Sweden's treasure island had a brief mention of a few thousand Gotlander Swedes arrived to their "homeland" from the former USSR in the 1920's. In the 1921 Soviet census, about 900 Swedish-Russians (or Ukrainians) lived in one village, Gammalsvenskbi (Gamelsvinsk) became abandoned in World Wars I and II, when the Soviets expelled the "German" inhabitants who happened to be Swedish-speaking of East Gothic descent. 
Gammalsvenskbi was settled in 1780 by a small wave of "Estegote" settlers from Estonia and northwest Russia. Due to ethnic conflict in the 19th and early 20th century, the village's residents disliked introducing themselves to their Russian and Ukrainian neighbors, whom would call them "bloody Germans". But when they say "I'm an Estgote Swede", they get insults on how the great Russians defeated King Charles VIII in the battle of Poltava and threatened the "barbarian Goths" to leave the country. 
If any remnants of Estgotes, Swedish-Russians and Crimea Goths are around in the 21st century may get never known, but their language is well documented and preserved in writing for research in Crimean Gothic myths, stories and notes on their daily lives. The Soviet Union's policy of history denial and misinformation of ethnic and national minorities, and the "Russification" of Tsarist Russia followed by an equally intolerant "Sovietization" forced an doctrine of assimilation that killed many languages and ethnic identities across the large country, the Crimean Goths were the policy's victims. + 63.3.14.1 18:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems like a mixup of goths and gutar. 惑乱 分からん 13:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. The Swedes in Ukraine, many of whom emigrated to Gotland, have no connection to the Crimean Goths. Another language, another people and another history. While the text by the user is of interest regarding the Gammelsvenskby, it has no relevance whatsoever to this article. JdeJ 00:11, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Or possibly a mixup of goths and geats. The Charles that the Russians knocked the sh*t out of in the battle of Poltava, was more probably Charles XII, an infamous Swedish king that was shot to death at the battle at Fredriksten ... to the relief of many peoples, including the Swedes themselves. Said: Rursus ☻ 19:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In which case, JdeJ's point remain valid. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  East Goths: The lost Swedes of Russia and the Ukraine 

message: I assess this article to the stub level. I think the article contains all necessary to be rised to the start level, except proper headings to make it easy to read. If you disagree, then edit the  uppermost on this page to your liking. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Or add headings and improve the article to your liking. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is very little attestation of the language, itself. Except for a vocabulary listing, how much more could be added without refraining to guesswork? (Of course, we could always source others' guesswork.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:17, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Stub class

message: What's the source for "razn" being loaned from Crimean Tatar? Razn is indeed found in Wulfila's Gothic:   惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:44, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, razn is considered an inherited Germanic word, compare Old Icelandic rann with the same meaning. The entire paragraph is a highly dubious and wholly unsourced IP addition of no discernible merit (to phrase it politely). It seems unsalvageable given that the IP is not likely to return and provide a source (and just in the event they should really return after all, they can simply enter the information anew, or complain on the talk page; thanks to the revision history, nothing is lost anyway, after all). I've gone and removed it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Or would the editor mean that razn has been loaned into Crimean Tatar? Anyway, it would probably need sourcing, anyhow. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Razn

message: In the second table, no Dutch or German cognates are listed for malthata, 'said'. Malthata looks remarkably similar to the first and third person singular preterite of the verb melden, "to announce", which appears as meldete in German and as meldde in Dutch. Are there any specific reasons why these forms are not listed? Iblardi (talk) 02:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It wouldn't do any harm to recheck these cognates, but I think the answer to this specific question is that melden is not a cognate - Kluge gives the source as a WGmc root *meld-, which cannot be cognate with a Gothic form in -th-. --Pfold (talk) 11:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I now see that malthata is usually linked to Gothic mathljan. Iblardi (talk) 21:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In the oldest Dutch sentence to date; maltho thi afro lito, maltho is the primordial form of modern Dutch melden. I don't see why a West Germanic root ending in -d (note its apparent absence in some Old Dutch conjugations) cannot share an earlier form with an East Germanic root ending in -th. Kleinsma80 (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The ONW has maltho, malthon derived from *mathlon. Melden is not mentioned. Iblardi (talk) 21:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In any case then, at least malthata and maltho/mathlon seem to be cognates. "modern lemma" is given as malden, though. Kleinsma80 (talk) 15:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

text:  The German cognate also has -d-, not the -t- which you'd expect from earlier -d- because of the High German consonant shift. So German actually requires original -þ- and excludes original -d- as a possibility. CodeCat (talk) 21:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The German word is derived from meld- in all dictionaries, never melþ--. And there's at least one other Old High German word that has -ld- for expected -lt-: sculd from PG *skuldi-, which is only attested in this form. This is due probably due to early irregular revoicing triggered by the preceding liquid.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.206.132.131 (talk) 13:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Malthata' and its cognates 

message: To CodeCat: Why did you revert my translations? I made them clearer and more correct. I'm also a speaker of Swedish so I know a thing or two about my language. --Shandristhe azylean 14:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations 

message: This is a bit muddled, but it seems that the two different roots for "go, walk" aren't etymologically related (despite similarities in appearance); Gmc. *gangan (or similar) could be derived from PIE *ghengh- (step), while W. Gmc *gaian is derived from PIE *ghe- (release, let go). The Scandinavian form "gå" seems to have been borrowed from Middle Low German, and it's likely that "geen" would come from a West Germanic source, as well. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:30, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geen 

message: Quote: “There are two alternative solutions: that Crimean Gothic presents a separate branch of East Germanic, distinct from Ulfilas' Gothic; or that Crimean Gothic is descended from the dialect of West Germanic settlers who migrated to the Crimea in the early Middle Ages and whose language was subsequently influenced by Gothic.”
: First of all: It's quite likely that Crimean Gothic would not have developed from Wulfila's dialect. It could be considered a coincidence if it had. BUT: What is the evidence for this? Just because he wrote reghen and schvvester? And vvurt? This is no proof for anything. It can easily be influenced by German or Dutch. And even if not: Maybe -i- had a lowered pronunciation that could be heard as [e]. And maybe vaurt was later shifted back to vurt. Who knows? No one knows. There dozens of possibilities, not two alternatives.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.206.132.131 (talk) 13:57, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: The introduction from Austin University says this: The words so transmitted are similar enough to those of the Biblical Gothic (BG) of Wulfila's translation that scholars are in general agreement that the language in question is indeed Gothic, but there are some differences which suggest it may not be the later surviving form of BG itself. They say “suggest that it may not”. Much different from what this Wikipedia article says. Quote: "it is accepted that Crimean Gothic is not a descendant of Biblical Gothic."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.206.132.131 (talk) 14:18, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two alternatives 

message: The Crimean Gothic verb form 'malthata' (said) is cognate to German 'meldete' as well as Netherlandish 'meldde' from the verb 'melden' meaning to tell or to report. This verb occurs in a more ancient form in a well known Salian Frankish fragment from the Lex Salica "Maltho thi afrio lito."; Salian Frankish is considered to be a kind of "Old Dutch".Amand Keultjes (talk) 01:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: They seem to be false cognates. See the earlier discussion on this page, the ONW entry on malthon (from ma(t)hal, "gerechtsplaats") and the article on melden (from meldō-, "aangifte, verraad") in Philippa et al. Iblardi (talk) 06:46, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

text: I think you're missing the point: no amount of argument (and certainly no appeal to "common sense"!) can replace the need for an authoritative source in support of your claim. Kluge's very substantial entry on melden, for example, discusses the the uncertainties of its etymology in detail, but does not even mention any root with th or a cognate in Gothic. Find a source - anything else is a waste of time. --Pfold (talk) 10:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crimean Gothic "malthata" (said) still has cognates in German and Netherlandish 

message: I think we shouldn't be directly identifying Crimean Gothic as an East Germanic language in the lede as it is contested by numerous authors as explained in Classification section. --Gogolplex (talk) 22:32, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  East Germanic at lede?