Talk:Hal Lindsey

message: I agree that the tenor of this article is negative and the "NPOV protest" is probably appropriate.  I am not a dispensationalist and don't agree with much of Hal Lindsey's end-times prophecy statements, but this article is not even handed.  The article could be made acceptable with a little rework.  However, I will wait a while for the opinion of others before I take a stab at it.   Jim Ellis 03:25, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
: I made a few wording adjustments which I feel justifies removing the "NPOV protest".  If you disagree, please be specific about your concern so it can be addressed. Jim Ellis 03:26, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
I took a shot and fixing the NPOV problems and added more information.  I added information (with reference) that TBN later recanted their contention that content had nothing to do with their preemption of Lindsey's program.
I removed "Virtually none of Lindsey's verifiable predictions have been confirmed by history" because it is drawing an arguable and sensitive conclusion.  I'm not comfortable that the entire "Predictions" list is comprehensive or fair.  In fact, it seems to be a collection of negative predictions.  But there's certainly no need for an editorial conclusion at the end. --Ghartwig 08:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: omg that's harsh, but yeah; I think the entire 'article' reads like a long-winded summary of Hal Lindsey's views, rather than about Hal Lindsey proper. He's no longer important enough to warrant more than a 3-line paragraph, and his dispensational—pre-trib to boot—doctrines had become virtually extinct outside of the U.S. even at his peak popularity decades ago. JohndanR (talk) 16:24, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  --heh-- I have to agree, the article looks like public relations for a scammy fraud, not really a BIO. However Lindsey is still WP:BLP so being fully accurate and reducing the advertising is probably pointless, it's not as if anybody still believes any of the nonsense he sold to the rubes, marks, and suckers. Damotclese (talk) 15:42, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I'm not a fan of Lindsey or the fundamentalist crowd, but this article has quite bad NPOV problems in the Reputation section (specfically the bits referring to Zion Oil) and is in desperate need of a cleanup to provide good, encyclopedic prose rather than a collection of various quotes. If we're going to be critical of Lindsey, let's do it in a way that provides some credibility, people. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 01:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: glad you've kept your opinions to the talk page, for now. (I removed the christian hate that was here)Gotta remember that one.
The following statement leading off the "Biblical Interpretations" section strikes me as odd: "The core of Lindsey's teachings is the belief that Jesus Christ is presented in the four gospels of the New Testament as the divine Son of God and the Jewish Messiah." Within the overall context that Lindsey is regarded as non-mainstream or speculative in his Christian beliefs, someone who didn't know better would think that the belief that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God and the Messiah is also an extremist or non-mainstream view within Christianity, when in fact it is wholly orthodox.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.46.200.230 (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV again

message: Under the heading prophecies the article states: "The fact that there were seven countries in the Common Market related them to a beast with seven heads mentioned in Revelation."
In fact there were six signatories to the Treaty of Rome (signed 1957, entry into force 01 jan 1958). This is a fairly significant factual error and should be corrected - I have little interest in prophecies of this sort and hesitate to simply delete existing text since I would not know how to correct it. If the author can fit the six founding members of the European Communities (Belgium, France, Germany (West),Italy, Luxemburg and the Netherlands) into some plausible numerological or apocalyptic framework fine - but let's get the facts right!Wildbe 12:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prophecies 

message: I reverted the edits made by  for various POV and accuracy reasons. Let's go through them one by one.
* The following passage was deleted by the anon IP: 
::Lindsey also promotes various conspiracy theories regarding either the USSR or the European Union being the home of the Antichrist and describes liberals as an "enemy that hides in the shadows, doesn't play by any of the rules, and is determined to use any means to bring about our literal annihilation."  
:I see no reason why this should have been deleted. Both assertions are documented in the links cited. Lindsey first fingers Europe in The Late Great Planet Earth and is even more explicit about Europe in his DVD The War to End All Wars.
* This was also deleted by the anon IP:
::He has been divorced three times...
:Again, this is verifiable from various sources, including ,  and . 
* The anon rephrased a sentence to read:
::...destined to become the revived Roman Empire ruled by the Antichrist stated in the Bible.
:"Antichrist stated in the Bible" is redundant, really, since we're talking about the Bible. "A" revived Roman Empire is a matter of construction, rather than a definite article. 
* The anon rephrased a sentence to read:
::...he explicitly identified the former Soviet Union with the apocalyptic nation of Gog which is the anicent name of Russia.
:This is not accurate - Gog is not the ancient name of Russia. It was identified with Russia (notice the distinction) by the Scofield Reference Bible, but Scofield provides no reasoning for such an identification except for making a bare assertion that Meshech and Tubal are Moscow and Tobolsk, respectively (see the article itself), therefore Gog must be Russia. This is dubious reasoning at best, but in any case, to assert that Gog is the ancient name for Russia without qualification is wrong. In addition, whether Gog is a person or a nation is up for debate, depending on which language you read it in (see Gog and Magog#Identifications). At best, we can call Gog a "figure", which is vague enough to encompass both ideas. 
* The anon rephrased a paragraph as follows:
::Hal Lindsey describes the Biblical forecast that the end days would be within the generation that sees the establishment of Israel as a nation again (1948) and Jerusalem being under Jewish control (1967), and wrote in The Late, Great Planet Earth that a generation is "something like forty years." and then Jesus will come and establish his kingdom soon after.
:The Bible says no such thing, really. This is purely Lindsey's interpretation of Matthew 24:34: "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." A literal reading of Jesus's words, in context, actually implies that the generation he's talking to will see the fulfilment of His Kingdom. To reconcile this with the fact that obviously this did not come to pass, 1970s dispensationalism had to come up with another interpretation of it, and it Lindsey that made the link with Israel's foundation in 1948 in The Late Great Planet Earth, and in that book he was quite explicit about the forty year period, not "soon after". 
* The anon rephrased a sentence as follows:
::Many of Lindsey's verifiable predictions have been confirmed by history.
:This, as far as I am aware, is absolutely false. If Lindsey has made "many" verifiable predictions subsequently confirmed by history, please cite them. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 07:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverts of 24 July 2006

message: # 05:46, 21 September 2007 (hist) (diff) m Hal Lindsey (Reverted 2 edits by Bee Cliff River Slob identified as vandalism to last revision by SirEditALot. using TW) 
(The following is the User:Bee Cliff River Slob contribution to Hal Lindsey with  Promoting Zion Oil & Gas. Inc.):
Promoting Zion Oil & Gas. Inc. (section edited)
On April 1, 2004, Lindsey used his WorldNetDaily column to promote the sale of shares  of  Zion Oil and Gas, Inc.“Israel, nation of miracles.” Hal Lindsey . WorldNetDaily. April 1, 2004, and cited Biblical prophecy as a basis for suggesting that there was oil reserves  to be found within Israel. Zion Oil and Gas, Inc. Form FWP. U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. February 8, 2006. 
Lindsey failed to mention within the WorldNetDaily article that one of the directors of Zion Oil was Ralph DeVore, a cousin of Lindsey who works as director within the Hal Lindsey MinistriesHal Lindsey Website Ministries. IRS Form 990 "Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax." 2005.. The Dallas Business Journal reported at the time of Zion Oil & Gas initial public offering (IPO) on July 15, 2003, that DeVore owned an 18.1% shareholder interest in “...very risky” stock offering.“Zion Oil & Gas plans IPO.” William Hoffman. Dallas Business Journal. July 16, 2003.   DeVore has since resigned as a director from Zion Oil.Zion Oil & Gas, Inc., Form 8-Z. U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.January 5, 2005
References
   2. ^ “Israel, nation of miracles.” Hal Lindsey . WorldNetDaily. April 1, 2004
   3. ^ Zion Oil and Gas, Inc. Form FWP. U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. February 8, 2006.
   4. ^ Hal Lindsey Website Ministries. IRS Form 990 "Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax." 2005.
   5. ^ “Zion Oil & Gas plans IPO.” William Hoffman. Dallas Business Journal. July 16, 2003.
   6. ^ Zion Oil & Gas, Inc., Form 8-Z. U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.January 5, 2005
(the references were correctly linked  at the article page, although that may not show up here at the discussion page.).Bee Cliff River Slob 05:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, it was just a whole bunch of crap that you have already tried to pawn off and add to other pages here on Wiki.  It isn't going to work. - NeutralHomer T:C 14:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Verified material of section blanked by Neutralhomer

message: Some of the things in the biography section seem more suited for a section on his views. They aren't reallly biographical. Basejumper2 04:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heading Titles 

message: I am no fan of Hal Lindsey. The man terrified my grandmother. That being said, I do not think that ad hominem attacks are appropriate. For example, it is mentioned that he has had four wives. How is this germane? The wives are not named, and no citation is given. The real reason is to make him look like a chump. Conservative Christians do not approve of multiple wives, and I am sure the writer was aware of that.
Back to a neutral perspectives boys and girls.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.76.54.227 (talk) 05:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a biography of Hal Lindsey, ergo the "Traditional Christian Family Values" aspect of his multiple marriages is entirely relevant. And yes, the names and other relevant biographic information about his serial wives should also be provided if only for completion and -ref- references. If nobody else does that, I will do so. Damotclese (talk) 17:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: ad hominem

message: This man has been proved incorrect time and time again. (the USSR is gone) Is Wikipedia going to be a place that any one who gets a book published, no mater how wrong it is can have a bio? Russ The Rail Guy 13:32, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the man is an accomplished fraud and a liar, selling BS to rubes, marks, and suckers successfully for decades, but that is why his biography is part of Wikipedia: he was financially successful and he is yet another classic example of how easy it is to defraud the religious. Had he been a mundane crook, I might agree that his biography would not rise to the level of being encyclopedic, but he is highly successful at lifting money from people who lack the wit to avoid being swindled. Famous crooks have biographies because they're famous. Damotclese (talk) 14:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this here at all. 

message: For the editor who removed the external link to the Rapture Ready cult's web site, I restored the link sice it appears to be valid. Damotclese (talk) 16:07, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rapture Ready Cult external link removal 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Hal Lindsey. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20051212131839/http://www.hallindseyoracle.com:80/articles.asp?ArticleID=12130 to http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=12130
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: An editor suggests that there are excessive external links. I do not agree, there are something like 6 or 7 external links pointing to right wing Christian extremist web sites which appear to be legitimate coverage of the extant cult leader, and 7 are not too much. Damotclese (talk) 21:02, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear friend Damotclese, I hope you are well. It's not personal and I'm not an opponent. I merely disagree. If a third editor disagrees with me and restores your links, I won't revert again. Is that fair? In the meantime, I think you shouldn't add the sites again because they aren't particularly strong, neutral or helpful. Let's see what now happens. Regards, George Custer's Sabre 21:25, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you have a good reason to remove the external links, please note them. Thanks. Damotclese (talk) 17:52, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  By the way: I'm not opposed to removing the external links provided there are good reasons. I want to ensure that the reason why editors remove legitimate content is not ideology based. If there are good reasons for your removal of the links other than "too many" (which is not a good reason) please let me know. If it's just because you don't like the "World Net Daily" and other right-wing web sites that are being linked to, that's something I agree with but it's not a good Wikipedia reason. :) Thanks! Damotclese (talk) 17:58, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sigh! I gave the reason, Damotclese: "because they aren't particularly strong, neutral or helpful". But you just couldn't help adding them again. You want it your way. Fine. Keep them. George Custer's Sabre 03:26, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Too many" is not a good reason, but please don't get discouraged just because another editor asks for clarification of reason. I understand that everyone is a volunteer that works on this project, I hate to think that I have discouraged your efforts to improve the page. I don't feel strongly about the external links, I just want to make sure they're not removed for ideological reasons.Damotclese (talk) 04:23, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive external links? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: ...and television host. Was added to the text. He is not a television host.  The fraud claims he's on television however he sells DVDs to cult followers, he is not on television, that's a Christanic Republican lie. Damotclese (talk) 17:41, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a television host 

message: According to the Christanic mythologies and those that came before them, "Armageddon" already happened, the myth is about Roman occupational rulers who "got theirs finally" -- the Christanic myths are so-called "resentment myths" which were stories about how the oppressive Roman tyrants would get their come-uppence. Needless to say, Armageddon already came for the Romans according to actual history, not Mithratic, Hebrewic, or Christanic mythology. Damotclese (talk) 16:17, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armageddon already happened