Talk:Southern Cone

message: I made a table with some dates comparing the Southern Cone with the Rest of South America and 'Central America + Caribbean + Mexico'... the problem is that a user changed the dates and put fake dates! you can see the real dates here http://en.wikipedia.org/Latin_America ... is just adding the numbers and dividing for the number of countries! but this person is changing the real dates all the time! how can I stop it? thank I'm new in this  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xnahueeel (talk • contribs) 03:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table 

message: :There seems to be lot of discusions of the exact definition of the southern cone. Certainly there are more than one, and diferent definitions are used in diferent context. on what we all can agree is that Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are the core of the southern cone. Southern Brazil, Paraguay, Bolivia and Peru are also included in some definitions. Of course the original definition was inspired in geography but demographically Southern Brazil shows a lot in common with Argentina, Chile and Uruguay. however Brazils huge population density "distorts" the demograpy the southern cone core. Another difference is the language. About Paraguay it difers a lot from southern Brazil, Argentina, chile and Uruguay but is geographical the "next" couthry to add if extending the southern cone to the north. Bolivia and Peru aswell Paraguay are considered part of the southern cone due to political similarities (Operacion Condor, 70s geopolitics, juntas, 80s return to democracy, 2000s turn to the left).Dentren | Talk 15:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: About the inclusion of Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay and Peru

message: The introduction defines "Southern Cone" as the region of South America south of the Tropic of Capricorn.
There are two maps.
Neither of them shows the Tropic of Capricorn.
????  — Lawrence King (talk) 08:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Omission on the map 

message: "Light green: region only in rare acceptions included in the Southern Cone." This definition of the Southern Cone is not mentioned within the article, and I suppose it can be ignored. Why do not use the map South_cone_map.png (on the right side here →) instead - it is absolutely neutral and open towards the different views. This map is used as well in other Wikipedias, and some of them have been semiprotected for the brasilian IPs vandalizing them with the "green maps" without considering the context of the articles. --Hans Urian (talk) 01:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Light green? 

message: "Chile's various waves of immigrants (Italians, Germans, Israelis, Yugoslavians, Arabs, etc.)" -- From a cursory search, I haven't been able to find any evidence of immigration from Israel to Chile strong enough to be considered a 'wave', and if there has been I would find that surprising indeed.  Is this made up or is there some truth behind it?  If it is true, there should be more about it (perhaps in the main Chile article) because you don't often hear about migration _from_ Israel.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.188.60 (talk) 00:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israelis? 

message: Should the Southern Cone be considered a region of the Western world? I mean, this article has gone to great lengths to demonstrate the region's "European-ness," from the picture of frost in Brazil to the paragraph upon paragraph of demographic statistics. And of course one must consider the region's impressive economic growth. On the other hand, if the Southern Cone inhabitants do consider themselves Western, then why do Americans and Western Europeans generally overlook this region when speaking of the West? What factors, beside relative geographical distance, set the Southern Cone region apart from the rest of the Western world?
For that matter, if one set of Latin American countries is to be considered Western, then what would preclude other Latin American countries from being considered part of the West? Is there a racial requirement, for instance, or do countries need to pass a certain economic threshold? Can a nation that is not predominantly Western in its genetic composition still adhere to Western values, or is it by default culturally non-Western? Also, can a nation that was not historically considered Western by outsiders eventually become widely "accepted" into the West? Should its people actually desire such an "honor"?
If anybody could elucidate on any academic or political arguments being waged on this topic, they might be of help in better understanding the place of the Southern Cone vis a vis the West and the rest of Latin America.--Namenderkrieg (talk) 07:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The southern cone as weel as Argentina, Chile and Latin America in general have a complex national identity in means that these contries are often sed from aoutside as eno cultural entity, althought these countries actually from a mosaic, where diferent indigenous grops met diferent group of spanish colonist and interacted in diferent ways, and later on black people were brought to the scene, folowed by a heterogenous European and Asian immigration. The term latin-american was in fact imposed from outside and many people in the southern cone con sider themsevelsves to have more in commor with Spaniards and italiands than with their neigboring countries.I would like to include this stuff about "identity" in this article and many more, I havent found any source yet. Dentren | Talk 21:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All Latin America is part of the "Western civilization". Race has nothing to do with Western civilization. All Latin America was colonized by European powers, and the bulk of Latin American culture came from these countries. Latin America does have non-European influences, as well as the United States also has a huge Black African cultural influence, what makes no difference at all, since the European culture predominated in all the countries of Americas. Latin American culture is directly descended from the culture from Ancient Rome, brought by the Spanish and Portuguese colonizers. That's why it is called Latin America (from Latin, the language spoken in Rome). Race is a minor detail to include a country as Western or not. And by all definitions, Latin America is Western, with roots in Latin European culture, while Northern America has roots in Germanic European culture. It's a matter of culture, not race. The fact that the Southern Cone has more Whites than the rest of Latin America does not make this region more or less "Western" than the rest of Latin America. They all have the same basic cultural roots, which is Iberian. Opinoso (talk) 02:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And this article tries to sell the idea that the Southern Cone is a copy of Europe and a completly different part of Latin America (as if it was a big deal). It is not. It did have a greater impact of more recent European immigration, particularly Argentina and Uruguay. Chile had a minor impact of recent European immigration, even though this article tries to sell the idea it did. The more recent European immigrants did contribute with newer cultural elements to this region, particularly in food, architecture, way of life. Most of the immigrants were Iberians and Italians, who have a similar culture with Latin Americans. This region remained similar to the rest of Latin America, because the rest of Latin America has the bulk of its culture also rooted in Europe, particularly in Spain and Portugal. All Latin Americans are related to each other because of the culture, not because of the race. And the culture, being largely of European roots, makes all Latin Americans related to Europeans, not matter if they are Whites, Blacks, Purple or Pink. It's culture, not race or skin color. Opinoso (talk) 02:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Included in Western civilization? 

message: Moreover, I wonder if the rest of Brazil is not part of the Southern Cone as well (the map there showing the Southern Cone includes the state of São Paulo, which is not part of Southern Brazil, but of Southeastern Brazil (along with Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro and Espírito Santo). Opinoso (talk) 13:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Brazil

message: This article only focuses on the ethnic issue, ignoring other relevant sections, but while I explain some discrepancies, such as:
::1) As an example, about 56% the of Argentines of origin amerindian. This appointment arose from a misinterpretation of the article in the daily Clarin. The study by Dr. Corach and  Silvina Heguy on which it relied to write your article never gets to that conclusion. 
::The study analyzed 100 samples of southern Argentina, 220 samples from the north to center. If we take an average of these 320 samples to obtain 56% (actually 58%) contained genes Amerindians. As you have noticed, not taken into account that more than half the population is in the center of the country, so that 56% does not refer to the people of Argentina, but the average among these 3 groups of samples. Clarin however, decided to exaggerate by saying that 56% of Argentines have Native American genes; drawing their own conclusions when the study's findings did not say that.
::The percentage of Native American descendants of Argentina would have analyzed a number of samples proportional to population density in each sector of the country. So most of the samples have come from the most populated cities (mostly in the Midwest) and Buenos Aires, Rosario, Mendoza, Santa Fe, etc. Something like 200 samples from the center of the country, 70 northern and 30 south.
::I found an article more seriously, that is about the same study. This can clearly see that at no time conlusión reaches 56%:  . As an additional observation, I noticed that in several sectors of the article speaks of miscegenation between Europeans, Amerindians and Blacks. The latter in my opinion is a subjective conclusion, without references.
::2) When speaking of miscegenation or mestizos not refers to people with 50% of Spanish ancestry and 50% of indigenous ancestry as in the colony, when speaking of mestizo refers to people of inheritance mixed in the biological and, more importantly, culturally, and the term applies particularly to people with European and indigenous heritage, regardless of whether it is 50-50 (a "mongrel" in the colony), three quarters indigenous (" coyote ") or any other proportion. it would be clear that although much of population in the Southern Cone is biologically mixed, it is not phenotypically as shown by most of the studies presented in the article .--Ccrazymann (talk) 09:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only speaks of "ethnic groups" 

message: There is a sentence in the article that says: Amerindian-European admixture is dominant in countries such as Chile. A genetic resource concluded that Amerindian ancestry is found in both the high and low socioeconomic stratum of Chilean society, mainly on the maternal side, while European ancestry is dominant on the paternal side.
::1) The source Sociogenética The Chilean Gradient and social ethical implications is very useful for sociological analysis Sociogenética gradient, but the figures quoted in it (those that give the average course of mixing of various social strata) are views of the author, and not based on genetic works such as those made by other sources, such as the source of the Human Genetics Program at the University of Chile
::2) Another point: The study  used as blood donors at 150 persons San Jose Hospital in Santiago de Chile. That is, is very biased, and although that serves to demonstrate segregation between social groups and that no significant differences with the "Hispanics" in America, does not state that these data are indicators of genetic contributions relating to indigenous and European ancestors of the Chilean population.
::3) "The use of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome testing refer only to a line of ancestors each, becoming the ancestors of other invisible lines. Most Chileans are 30% mixture by their ancestors native aboriginal (Amerindian women who were married with the Spanish conquerors). According to this study, the degree of Amerindian mixture in the middle class is at 23.7% and 37.1% in the lower class , which confirms that the degree of mixing depends on the social level.
::4) Propose this: the Chilean population is mainly of European origin, but low genetic studies "the use of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome test results show the following: the European component is predominant in the Chilean upper class, the middle classes, 72.3% European component and 27.7% of mixed aboriginal and lower classes at 62.9%  European component and 37.1% mix of Aboriginal.--Ccrazymann (talk) 01:39, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. The changes are very subtle important enought in this controversial article. This article is really needing help from experts and a reestructuring so that not 70% of the article speaks about racial characterisics and genetics. Dentren | Talk 20:37, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The proposal sounds good and can be supported by other sources, see Chilean people for more info. Unfortunaly, this article was bombarded left and right from fanatics who believe Chile is a sort scandinavian country in south america and their opponents who belive it to be the most Amerindian country.Likeminas (talk) 20:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong interpretation of the source: "The Chilean Gradient Sociogenética social and ethical implications" 

message: the south brazil is the northeast part of the south cone; southeast brazil no..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.201.194 (talk) 14:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: southern brazil

message: *sao paulo not is part of southern cone, only southern brazil; sao paulo is southeastern brazil..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.115.184.5 (talk) 17:23, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: error in the map

message: Only are considered part of the sourthern cone: Chile, Argentina and Uruguay... not Brazil or Paraguay, i'm from Chile and i can give faith of that´s is true, on this site you can see an example: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=664188  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stgoviewer (talk • contribs) 01:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Southern Cone is just Chile, Argentina and Uruguay... no one else. 

message: I put the NNPOV for the following reasons: the demography and ethnicity section put and overly extensive emphasis on the "whiteness" and "Europeaness" of the Southern Cone. More over in the language section tiny linguistic minorities like Croatian, "Other Slavic languages" (¿?) and German are given way to much space in relation to indigenous languages considering the number of speakers (and even more if considering the number of native speakers). futher more realiable sources on ethnicity issues like CIA Factbook are not considered. Futhermore one of the sources to back a Chilean figure of 80% whites is lead to an article called "Improgan-Induced Hypothermia: A Role for Cannabinoid Receptors..." which says nothing about Chilean populations. The arguably racist/racialist aproach on demography has been adressed before here on the talk page, but aparently this NNPOV resurged and has prevailed until now. Chiton magnificus (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Not neutral

message: :1) The source: The study  University of Chile used as blood donors at 150 persons San Jose Hospital in Santiago de Chile. That is, is very biased, and although that serves to demonstrate segregation between social groups and that no significant differences with the "Hispanics" in America, does not state that these data are indicators of genetic contributions relating to European and Indigenous ancestors of the Chilean population.----Ccrazymann (talk) 23:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong interpretation of the source: "University of Chile" 

message: How does "participation in the global markets" contribute to make the Southern Cone the most prosperous macro-region of South America? 
This statement would make sence from a neoliberal point of view, but wikipedia is not here to endorse any particular world-view but current consensus. Chiton (talk) 20:53, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Participation in the global markets

message: The Southern Cone is the region of South America where frosts occurs every winter and where grains and wine are the mainstream of agriculture. In Sao Paulo, northern Parana, northern Chile and some regions in Paraguay and Argentina there is no frost and have fruits, coffee and sugar as the most important agricultural products, therefore they isn't part of the Southern Cone despite having demographic similarities.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.55.69.215 (talk) 00:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Climate as defining borders 

message: The Southern Cone is the region of South America where frosts occurs every winter and where grains and wine are the mainstream of agriculture. In Sao Paulo, northern Parana, northern Chile and some regions in Paraguay and Argentina there is no frost and have fruits, coffee and sugar as the most important agricultural products, therefore they isn't part of the Southern Cone despite having demographic similarities.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.55.69.215 (talk) 00:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Climate as defining borders 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: The country grouping made for the chart is completely arbitrary. The "Southern Cone" countries don't have pretty much anything in common regarding most of these subjects.
Income inequality: Chile has one of the highest income inequalities measured by Gini index, unlike Argentina or Uruguay.
Lack of corruption: Argentina has one of the worst scores in the region in the Corruption Perceptions Index, unlike Chile and Uruguay.
Economic Freedom: same, Argentina is one of the countries in Latin America with the less economic freedom, according to the Index of Economic Freedom used there.
Democracy, Peace: Costa Rica and Panama score better than Argentina on these indexes.
GDP per capita: Panama has a much higher GDP per capita than Argentina. Which is on the same level as Mexico, Brazil or Costa Rica.
And there is no reason to group the other South American countries (or the Central American ones, for that matter) as if they were a united entity. Each of these countries has a very different political orientation from the others, different sociohistorical backgrounds, they are part of different supra-national entities and so on.
The "Southern Cone" is merely a geographical term and has no other meaning (economic, political, ethnical) beyond it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoacoCanal (talk • contribs) 00:54, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Summary of socio-economic performance indicators for Latin American countries" chart is completely arbitrary 

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message: Missing from the article is an explanation of the quirky name. Why "cone" for a thing shaped like a triangle and not a cone? Can we get a (reliably sourced) etymology? TypoBoy (talk) 18:37, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology