Talk:Francis Bok

message: This article incorporates essentially all of the information I could find on Francis, so if there are missing topics or details, I am not sure they can be found. The semi-automated peer review script has been run on the article and it finds several apparent errors which are not actually there (as noted). 
I believe that this article meets the criteria for GA. Any feedback on it will be greatly appreciated. I will seek to make any changes requested. Dincher (talk) 01:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes on this article

message: :There is some debate as to whether or not the use of an autobiography by Francis Bok as a source for identifying a slave holder (Giemma Abdullah) violates WP:SELFPUB. Discussion on this topic has begun in the preceding section of this talk page. Dincher (talk) 02:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the comments. They are very helpful. Dincher (talk) 19:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the comments. I surveyed the references and found the following. USA Today does not identify Giemma Abdullah (GA). The Dick Staub Interview and James Lehman article identify GA by "Giemma" only. Lappen identifies him as Giemma Abdullah. My thought is to remove the last name of Mr. Adbullah from the article. Thoughts? Dincher (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I am not sure "Abdullah" is his last name (some cultures list names in reverse order compared to western practice), if two third-party articles refer to him as Giemma, I think it would be OK here. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 15:45, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. I will remove the "Abdullah's" from the article. Dincher (talk) 21:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Abdullah's" have been removed.Dincher (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comment

message: At the suggestion of User:Athaenara, I have listed this at the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, here. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 04:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLP/N 

message: I will post a full review shortly, but here are some preliminary notes:
#Try adding the title of the book to the references, instead of just saying "Bok, page xx".
:I changed it to a condensed version of the title. Is this okay? Dincher (talk) 15:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I will await further details. Dincher (talk) 15:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Review

message: ====Lead====
"Bok's autobiography, Escape from Slavery: The True Story of My Ten Years in Captivity and My Journey to Freedom in America, published by St. Martin's Press, chronicles his life, from his early youth, his years in captivity, to his work in the United States as an abolitionist."
I think this information should be placed somewhere else in the lead, as it's in the middle of the details of his life.
*Thanks. I moved this to the end of the lead.
====Childhood and abduction====
"Because he preferred to join his father among the herds instead of playing with his siblings and friends, Francis (called "Piol") was a favorite of his father's. In fact, just before his abduction, his father began calling him Muycharko, meaning "like twelve men"."
Exactly how relevant is the fact that he was his father's favorite to his life?
*Moved this out.
"When Francis was captured at the age of 7 on May 15, 1986, he could not count beyond 10 and knew very little of the outside world. His primary concerns centered on following his father around their pastures and playing alweth, a game similar to hide and seek, and Madallah, a native game similar to cricket."
How important is it for us to know that he played alweth and madallah, and that he couldn't count past 10? How about just saying he was uneducated?
*Got rid of games bit left in that he couldn't count past 10.
"When he was captured, Francis' mother, Adut Al Akok, sent him, along with some older siblings and neighbors, to the village of Nyamlell to sell eggs and peanuts in the village market. This was Francis' first trip to the village without his mother, and it was the first time that his mother entrusted him with some of the family's products for selling at the market."
How important is it that he was selling eggs and peanuts?
*I can't find the best wat to word this. I wanted to say produce but eggs aren't produce. So I left it at eggs and peanuts. 
"Francis went to the market and sat with other sellers under a large tree, where he heard adults say that they had seen smoke coming from nearby villages and had heard gunfire in the distance. People had begun fleeing the market as Francis looked over his shoulder and saw horsemen with machine guns. The gunmen had surrounded the market and were shooting the men in Nyamlell."
Is it relevant to his life that he was sitting under a large tree? How about summarizing a bit, and saying "When Bok was at the market, raiders surrounded the market and killed all the men and captured all women and children"?
*Got rid of the bit about him sitting under the tree.
"Francis Bok witnessed the execution of a 12-year-old girl, murdered because she would not stop crying."
Is this necessary information?
*Deleted this too, but it does illustrate the cruelty of the raiders.
====Life as a slave====
"Giemma placed Francis atop a donkey that was part of a caravan of slaves, stolen produce, livestock and wares that the militia had captured in their raid of the Dinka settlement."
Do we need to know that he was placed on top of a donkey?
*Removed this too
"Francis was left in a hovel near the pens of Giemma's goats, camels, cattle and horses."
Is it relevant that he was near the pens of "goats, camels, cattle and horses"?
*Changed to livestock. I want to keep this. It shows that Bok was considered to be less than human.
"For the first five years Francis was entrusted only with the goats."
Relevance?
*Gone
"Young Francis began to suspect that his life was going to change forever and that his father was not going to be able to save him."
Reference, maybe?
*Referenced
"Francis was beaten again but Giemma chose not to kill him as Francis had become too valuable to the family as a slave. Despite his repeated attempts to flee, he was considered to be a fine herdsman by his captor. If, according to Bok, Giemma had killed Francis, there would have been no one as good to watch over and tend the herds."
You established the fact he was needed, so he was not killed. Three sentences repeating basically the same thing are not really needed.
*Taken care of
"Francis had been freed by a Muslim who believed that what some of his fellow Muslims in Northern Sudan were doing was wrong. Francis arrived in Khartoum with no money and no place to go. In less than a year, he had made his way from slavery to the capital city of Sudan. He was hungry, tired and did not know where to turn. Fortunately for Francis, another stranger would help him find his way to his fellow Dinka tribespeople in Khartoum."
Keep the verb tense consistent with the rest of the paragraph.
*Corrected this. Thanks for pointing it out.
Fixed! Abdullah Al Manjur (talk) 15:24, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments 1

message: "Giemma placed Francis atop a donkey that was part of a caravan of slaves, stolen produce, livestock and wares that the militia had captured in their raid of the Dinka settlement."
Do we need to know that he was placed on top of a donkey?
*Removed this too
"Francis was left in a hovel near the pens of Giemma's goats, camels, cattle and horses."
Is it relevant that he was near the pens of "goats, camels, cattle and horses"?
*Changed to livestock. I want to keep this. It shows that Bok was considered to be less than human.
"For the first five years Francis was entrusted only with the goats."
Relevance?
*Gone
"Young Francis began to suspect that his life was going to change forever and that his father was not going to be able to save him."
Reference, maybe?
*Referenced
"Francis was beaten again but Giemma chose not to kill him as Francis had become too valuable to the family as a slave. Despite his repeated attempts to flee, he was considered to be a fine herdsman by his captor. If, according to Bok, Giemma had killed Francis, there would have been no one as good to watch over and tend the herds."
You established the fact he was needed, so he was not killed. Three sentences repeating basically the same thing are not really needed.
*Taken care of
"Francis had been freed by a Muslim who believed that what some of his fellow Muslims in Northern Sudan were doing was wrong. Francis arrived in Khartoum with no money and no place to go. In less than a year, he had made his way from slavery to the capital city of Sudan. He was hungry, tired and did not know where to turn. Fortunately for Francis, another stranger would help him find his way to his fellow Dinka tribespeople in Khartoum."
Keep the verb tense consistent with the rest of the paragraph.
*Corrected this. Thanks for pointing it out.
Fixed! Abdullah Al Manjur (talk) 15:24, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Life as a slave

message: You refer to the article subject by his first name in almost every instance. From WP:MOSBIO#Subsequent uses of names: "After the initial mention of any name, the person may be referred to by surname only." Also: "It is preferable to refer to the person by surname, not given name, even if the subject is not controversial. The use of the given name gives the impression that the writer knows the subject personally, which, even if true, is not relevant.
*Done
Also, in the references, in every case that you quote the book, you should use italics for the book. And, list the full detail of the book in the first reference of it. In other words, you use Escape From Slavery in ref. 5, but only give the whole info in ref. 7.
*Done
I think there are more probably things that need to be addressed, but I'll just leave these comments for now, and see what happens. Noble Story (talk) 12:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: General

message: ====Lead====
"He stayed with the Muslim family for two months and provided him a bus ticket to Khartoum. Upon arriving in Khartoum..."
"And provided him..." That's not grammatical. Provide a subject for that clause.
*Fixed. hopefully. Dincher (talk) 14:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments 3

message: "He stayed with the Muslim family for two months and provided him a bus ticket to Khartoum. Upon arriving in Khartoum..."
"And provided him..." That's not grammatical. Provide a subject for that clause.
*Fixed. hopefully. Dincher (talk) 14:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: "Bok went to the market, where he heard adults say that they had seen smoke coming from nearby villages and had heard gunfire in the distance. People had begun fleeing the market as Francis saw horsemen with machine guns. The gunmen had surrounded the market and were shooting the men in Nyamlell."
As this is a past event, keep the tense in the past as well (as in "people began fleeing", "gunmen surrounded", etc.)
*Fixed Dincher (talk) 14:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Childhood and abduction

message: "Upon arriving at Giemma's residence, Francis was beaten by his captor's children with sticks and was called abeed, which literally means "slave" and the stereotype is that of an inferior, demeaned, Negroid race."
OK, this sentence is a run-on. Maybe try splitting it up after "slave".
*Split. Dincher (talk) 14:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Life as a slave

message: "He regularly praised Bok's work with the animals yet still forced him to live a life of slavery."
"He" doesn't really have a clear noun before it. So clarify who "he" is.
*He has been identified. Dincher (talk) 14:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Escape

message: "Here they were forced to live together in sub-standard conditions with filth running through the streets and secret police eavesdropping on their conversations."
This sentence seems rather sensational. Try to tone it down to a professional look (i.e. shorten and/or drop the part about filth and secret police eavesdropping).
*Toned down. Dincher (talk) 14:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Journey to the United States

message: "Jesse Sage, associate director of the American Anti-slaver Group, and Charles Jacobs persuaded Bok moved to Boston to work with the AASG."
After referring to Jacobs already, use just the last name.
*Taken care of Dincher (talk) 14:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Work as an abolitionist

message: ====Lead====
"He stayed with the Muslim family for two months, that provided him a bus ticket to Khartoum."
You already said they were Muslim in the last sentence. Also, it should be, "...and they provided him..."
*Changed. Dincher (talk) 16:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments 4

message: "He stayed with the Muslim family for two months, that provided him a bus ticket to Khartoum."
You already said they were Muslim in the last sentence. Also, it should be, "...and they provided him..."
*Changed. Dincher (talk) 16:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: "People began fleeing the market as Francis saw horsemen with machine guns. The gunmen surrounded the market and shot the men in Nyamlell."
Try combining the sentences, as in "People began fleeing the market as Francis saw horsemen with machine guns surround the market and shoot..."
*I can't make the change requested. I believe that this is worded properly. It shows that the raiders were on horses and armed. Dincher (talk) 16:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Childhood and abduction

message: "Which literally means "slave" and the stereotype is that of an inferior, demeaned, Negroid race."
Replace the word "which" with "The word".
*Change made. Dincher (talk) 17:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Life as a slave

message: "Bok asked a man with a truck to give him a ride to any place other than Mutari."
I think it would be good just to say he asked him for a ride, and not add the extra info.
*Disagree. This shows that Francis wanted to leave Mutari. Saying that he just wanted a ride doesn't give enough detal. Maybe the ride just goes to the other side of town. I chaged it to Bok asked a man with a truck to give him a ride out of Mutari Hope this works. Dincher (talk) 17:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Escape

message: "Jabarona was filled with Dinka refugees who had fled the fighting in the south of Sudan. Here they were forced to live together in sub-standard conditions."
Maybe you could combine the sentences ("Jabarona was filled with Dinka refugees who had fled the fighting in the south of Sudan, and were foreced...")
*Done. Dincher (talk) 17:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Journey to the United States

message: Review of Francis Bok
#Is it reasonably well written?
#:A. Prose quality:  
#:: 
#:B. MoS compliance: 
#:: 
#Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
#:A. References to sources:  
#:: 
#:B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:  
#:: 
#:C. No original research: 
#:: 
#Is it broad in its coverage?
#:A. Major aspects:  
#:: 
#:B. Focused: 
#:: 
#Is it neutral?
#:Fair representation without bias: 
#:: 
#Is it stable?
#: No edit wars, etc: 
#:: 
#Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
#:A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:  
#:: 
#:B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: 
#:: 
#Overall: 
#:Pass or Fail: 
#:: 
After making the necessary changes, this is now a GA. Noble Story (talk) 02:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final GA review 

message: This article still contains a bit of unreliable sources. I'll be removing/replacing them over the next while. Examples are:  (a non-objective  source that appears to be a missionary site), any link from FrontPage Magazine, http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Igpress/2000-07/wsudan.html] (another missionary website whose objective is to "evangelize the social world by building up the Kingdom of Christ"). If you beleive any of the sources is reliable, then perhaps you are correct and I'm mistaken. Please give your explanation below.Bless sins (talk) 14:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the reference for the material that you removed to the book reference. Please don't remove anything else without checking the references first. Front Page Mag got their material from the book.Dincher (talk) 15:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

text: What is unreliable about the interview? Francis Bok is the source of the information. His story has been published and vetted by a notable and major publishing company. Dincher (talk) 15:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked User:Ealdgyth, who checks all the sources at WP:FAC to look at the sources in this article and weigh in on their reliability. I also found this from the New York Times, which is definitely a reliable source:  Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 15:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ealdgyth will take a look in the next 24 hours or so - she is travelling and has limited access to the internet. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 15:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please proceed with adding NYT (and other reliable sources) to this article. Please refrain from adding unreliable sources (such as FPM).Bless sins (talk) 06:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Okay. I have made some more changes. The Dick Staub Interview is out as a reference is moved out and to External links and the PBS and NY Times work has been moved to references. Dincher (talk) 00:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreliable sources

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Francis Bok. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100604092150/http://www.furman.edu/depts/ps/engaged/fufa/FrancisBokBio%3DFUFA%3DFeb13-2007event.pdf to http://www.furman.edu/depts/ps/engaged/fufa/FrancisBokBio%3DFUFA%3DFeb13-2007event.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have changed it but I’m aware I may be blocked, I will fix it again in a few seconds 
And credits to the original publisher:https://github.com/caseyahenson Abdullah Al Manjur (talk) 15:22, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Sudan was, in 1979 Sudan