Talk:FLCL/Archive 6

message: We need some pictures demonstrating N.O. The horn would be good; also, something emerging from Naota's head. -Litefantastic 22:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Can we get some N.O. pictures?

message: I remember that there used to be a VERY good link in the link section that broke down every last little detail of the psycholgy and innuendo in Fooly Cooly. Does anybody have that link or something like it? 65.4.40.82 22:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychology 

message: i think someone has to clarify that part, it looks like he puts those clothes on all the time. Kamon only dress up as a nazy when playing the sort of paintball game, like we were cowboys and indians when we were kids. It's just a joke, ok a VERY dark humour joke (today I sign my post, oh well, I really should sign up in the english wikipedia). --200.43.35.142 03:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kamon is not a Nazi 

message: I feel that there should be something on the cats in Fooly Cooly. There's the Nandaba cat that Haruko seems to use to communicate with her superiors, and Ta-kun the cat which abandons Mamimi for a white female cat. 65.4.40.82 23:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cats 

message: Come'on, that was just a spelling error. Please don't put that on the page any more. If you had seen anime and japanese movies it should be obvious to you. Japanese people are horrible with english, that's all. 200.43.35.253 16:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The name is NOT debated to be Medical Meccanical

message: I did an extensive explanation about this point in the backup talk page. I think you should remove that phrase or at least explain a little better on the character's page that she doesn't "live" under the bridge. 200.43.35.253 16:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mamimi is NOT "appear to be homeless"

message: "unsourced statement - positing a string of kids bludgeoning their parents to death with baseball bats needs to be sourced" <--- in fact that's false. In chapter 4 commentary track Tsurumaki says he had the idea of having Naota hitting his father with the baseball bat "because" of that series of cases. People from the staff told him it would be problematic, and they changed it to this final script. 200.43.35.134 23:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: kids bludgeoning their parents to death with baseball bats

message: :Image:Handcowboy.JPG: Currently not linked to by anything, it's not entirely clear what this is supposed to be.
:Mamimi.JPG: I currently know of four pictures of Mamimi (not counting group shots); this is probably the least useful.
:Image:Kantivsarm.JPG: A little out of focus, not linked to by anything and  not illustrative of any key moment in the series.
:Image:HarukoCanti.JPG: By no means a bad picture; the only flaw here is that there's no way to display it in an article at a size that will show all the detail. Perhaps a higher-resolution version, cropped just to show the little crowd at the center?
:* I agree with these. I am the one who uploaded them, but I didn't see any real use for them at the time, and if there still isn't any, I say delete. I just uploaded an N.O. example picture as well. Should I fix the HarukoCanti image? Blademaster313 03:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I'd go for it. It'd look good on whatever episode it came out of, as well as the top of the characters' page. -Litefantastic 20:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Nominations complete. -Litefantastic 21:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sacrifice(?)

message: This has been in the trivia section for as long as I can remember:
:There are examples of scenes in which Naota yells out "Tasuk--"; the Japanese audience, at first assuming that he will exclaim "Tasukete" (help!), may be surprised when he instead says "Tasuku," the name of Naota's older brother.
Is it Naota who says that, or Mamimi? -Litefantastic 01:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They both say somethiung along those lines in episode 5. I think Mamimi is saying Help Me Tasuku, which agrivates Noata and then he yells for his brother,  Tasuku. (-Kid. 13:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Japanese script, when Naota calls out for his brother (or at least his strength), he yells out "onii-san", which is an honorific for an older brother (lit. "honored older brother", but not that formal by far. Yelling out "Bro!" would be a pretty good equivalent). If he yells "Tasuku" in the english script, it's most likely because yelling "Bro!" would be too short for the dub. Wilderns 18:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick review

message: I'm going on vacation tomorrow, and won't be back until Sunday or so. Good luck with the battle! -Litefantastic 01:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Leaving

message: I'd like to thank all of you who stopped by for the Article Improvemnent Drive, and although I believe we still have quite a ways to go, I also think we've made an immense amount of progress. -Litefantastic 21:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Closing out the AID

message: Since the editing frenzy has pretty much died down, I'm going to renominate us for Good Article. From there, we can make the last few crucial improvements and modifications to boost us to FA! -Litefantastic 18:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure it's ready for GA? I'm not sure we've covered everything from the peer review (not that we need to, just that it would help). I'm especially concerned about the intro and references. The intro just needs a little more summary info - not just a plot summary. I would take a stab at it but I won't have time to give it serious attention for a few days. I'm not sure what to do about references; most of this material can be taken directly from watching the show. There are things like "a common mistake viewers make" which should probably be referenced, but I wouldn't know where to start with that. Either way, I think a GA review will bring these items up. On the other hand, we have made significant improvement over the past week, so kudos! -- Laura S | talk to me 19:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The points you make are good ones. The intro actually looks pretty good to me, and I'm not sure about references. I haven't been able to find coverage of FLCL in any print magazine. Does anybody know of one? -Litefantastic 14:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another run at GA

message: I don't think that the statement in this edit is correct; can anyone confirm this? -- Laura S | talk to me 19:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FLCL's not supposed to MEAN anything. Everytime people think they translate it's just rough or vague or amigiuous or whatever the word is. Furi Kura or other words that sound like it mean something but I just don't think FLCL is supposed to mean anything. (-Kid. 12:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibly incorrect edit? 

message: The article violates several of the good article criteria, and as such has been failed. A detailed analysis below:
First of all, the article fails criterion 3a, in that it is an article on a Japanese work that does not cover its reception in Japan. Thus far its English language reception is the only thing discussed, though it is detailed only lightly. Also, it discusses something about "Adult Swim" in the final paragraph of the Reception section; an element of mere trivia - it has nothing to do with the show's reception. The article also fails criterion 3a due to the Story section not actually discussing show's narrative - it seems more like a discription of the characters, in fact. In addition to these, the Production section being a small bulleted list of trivia is also in violation of criterion 3a - the production of this show is, far and away, one of the more major aspects of the show, and it needs to be covered in detail. One final little thing here is the "Cultural" subsection - once again, the elements regarding the Japanese reception are left entirely undiscussed.
To a lesser extent, it also fails criterion 3b. Some elements of non-notable trivia are present, though not nearly as big of an issue as the lack of broad coverage.
Secondly, the Style section fails criterion 2d for discussing the complex themes of the show without the use of a single reference. The section is positively filled with original research; for example, The stranger elements reflect an overall awkwardness, and often incorporate extremely heavy (yet often vague) Freudian imagery; fans with some knowledge of psychology often have a field day picking psychological symbols out of the seemingly irrational action of FLCL. - who are these fans? Who thinks it reflects an overall awkwardness? Who says there is Freudian imagery? The entire section is going to need a huge amount of rewriting and citing sources to kill the original research that is currently so deeply embedded in it. An even better example of the original research here is the following: 
Despite its often startling and heavy-handed moments, FLCL actually features an immense dedication to detail. It parodies slightly nostalgic Japanese culture itself, by switching styles to traditional kabuki at one point, presenting discontinued brands of drinks, Japanese style bread, and nostalgic 3-wheeled automobiles that were prominent in post-war Japan. In fact, almost all of the devices and products used in the series are real, and can be identified with sufficient examination. - sounds more like a review than an encyclopedia entry.
As a side effect of the massive amounts of original research here, the article also fails criterion 4b - when dealing with a show that has this many different interpretations, it is absolutely necessary to not assert a viewpoint as factual. This is another reason more references are required.
The Releases section needs citations - a lot of them. A few examples:
:FLCL was originally released in Japan as an OVA anime on six DVDs.
:The story was also released as a two-volume manga by artist Hajime Ueda, and a two-volume novel serialization by Yoji Enokido, who also wrote the script for the show.
:All were released in Japan starting in 2000.
:The manga is a much darker and more violent take on the story [...] - rewriting and citation necessary. It is the editor's opinion that it is a "much darker and more violent take on the story," and it needs to be rewritten and cited to clearly be the opinion of a reliable, outside source.
:[...] while the novels are a more straight adaptation. - again, an opinion in need of rewriting and citation (something along the lines of "while the novels are commonly thought of as a more direct adaption[5]").
And that's in the first paragraph of the section alone. The entire article suffers from a lack of citations, however, which happens to be a violation of criterion 2a.
Moving on, another guideline the article violates which is not directly discussed in the good article criteria, but instead grouped together in good article criterion 1c, is as follows:
*Wikipedia:Lead section - the lead has two paragraphs. One deals with the definition of what the article discusses, while the other deals solely with plot elements. No mention is made of the reception, themes or controversies (may or may not apply - my knowledge of the subject matter is limited). Put bluntly, the lead section does not "[stand] alone as a concise overview of the article."
Now, on to probably the article's worst violation, which is strangely not discussed in the good article criteria, but will come into play in just about every case (particularly in FAC): the images. Copyrighted images (such as the ones in the article) each require a very detailed and specific fair use rationale (see an article like Sunset Blvd. for an idea of the ideal rationale). In addition, they must be used sparingly, and only when absolutely necessary to convey a point discussed in the illustrated section's prose. The use of some of this article's images in this article is purely decorative; for example, "Haruko simply doesn't care" - why is this here? It adds nothing to the section. Same goes for "Some of the cast, in 'Brittle Bullet'" - the image is so low quality, and the characters shown are so unclear, that the image becomes nearly useless on top of being decoration. The image of the horn coming out of Naota's head should be fine, however.
In the Style section, I see even more violation of the rules on images. "Haruko, waving to Naota, whom she has just run over." - how does this illustrate the show's unique style? "Mamimi's blithe exterior hides her true feelings," as well, should go - this element is not discussed in the section it illustrate, nor is it necessary to depict in the first place; just inserting "Mamimi's blithe exterior hides her true feelings" somewhere in the prose would be enough. I can understand "The visual style changes with the shot" in the section, but the prose needs to be more specific in its discussion of this image. Finally, the album cover is completely unnecessary - being as bland as it is, it is not necessary to depict it in order to illustrate something that cannot be conveyed through prose alone (on a completely different note, a "Soundtrack" section would be preferable to the insertion of soundtrack details in the Style section). On the subject of the image used in production, it is not particularly necessary. If there was some more detailed discussion of the use of manga, it would be more arguable, but as it is it could be cut without loss.
The article does have other issues that will need to be addressed eventually, but I believe I've given you guys an idea of what needs to be done for this article to reach good article status. Good luck, and thanks for your work so far. JimmyBlackwing 19:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding good article nomination

message: In order to better co-ordinate where we go from here, please sign your name under each and any of the following you own (or have ready access to) and are willing to provide information about. This will allow us to make a better structured attack on the remaining pockets of vagueness in the article:
*The FLCL DVDs (English)
Blademaster313 (I have the episodes themselves on my computer, not the DVDs.)
FLCLFan (I have all 3 DVDs)
*The pamphlets that came with said DVDs
*The FLCL DVDs (Japanese)
*The FLCL manga (English)
Tyler (I have both volumes of the English manga.)
*Any of the albums
Tyler (I have the second and third of the three albums.)
*The FLCL novels (Japanese only)
*Any piece of print media discussing or reviewing FLCL
Thanks, and good luck -Litefantastic 01:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Okay. I think we actually have enough information on the subject page; our main task at this late stage is enhancing it. We need to cite everything (feel free to dig up things just so you can cite them) and it would be good if we can have more material in the receptain section. I'm beginning to think the trivia section should be done away with completely, but I could be dissuaded. -Litefantastic 01:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sign here!

message: Found a lovely little interview with Kazuya Tsurumaki here. It contains some juicey tidbits we can add to the article, such as the origin of the title (but sadly, not the meaning) and that the series is a metaphor of the history of Gainax. Just rememeber to cite this stuff too ;) --SeizureDog 20:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also found 5 pages worth of information that was printed in Pulp, which, being a magazine, makes for good reference. Includes another interview.--SeizureDog 20:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wonderful, have at it. I'm too burned out just now, what with school and everything. Somewhere there had to be an actual magazine that talked about this - Kudos on finding it. -Litefantastic 20:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm uncomfortable doing much more than minor edits away from my home computer. And I moved recently and haven't set up internet yet so...yeah. Things such as citations require a lot of copy and pasting for me, and being on a computer I'm not used to feels weird to do much. I would/will do it once I have everything set up though. --SeizureDog 03:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hurray, a nice reference to use. 

message: Name                      	Status                                  	Needs                                                                                                                                           	         	
Episodes                  	Episodes                                	Episodes                                                                                                                                        	Episodes 	Episodes
Fooly Cooly               	Whole, needs light to moderate rewriting	Needs to be rewritten in the useful but topically inappropriate journalist's hourglass layout.                                                  	         	
FireStarter               	Whole                                   	Needs to be shortened and prettified.                                                                                                           	         	
Marquis de Carabas (FLCL) 	Whole                                   	Light tinkering                                                                                                                                 	         	
Full Swing                	Whole                                   	Better wording, here and there                                                                                                                  	         	
Brittle Bullet            	Whole; needs polishing                  	Copyediting and a nice coat of wax                                                                                                              	         	
FLCLimax                  	Whole                                   	Likewise                                                                                                                                        	         	
Albums                    	Albums                                  	Albums                                                                                                                                          	Albums   	Albums
Addict (soundtrack)       	Pretty much set                         	Could possibly be made longer                                                                                                                   	         	
King of Pirates           	Complete but too short                  	Needs an explanation on the radio dramas and the picture from the back of the album. The soundtracks are being ignored in this movement of ours.	         	
FLCL No. 3                	Unclear                                 	Probably could use some light editorial work                                                                                                    	         	
Templates                 	Templates                               	Templates                                                                                                                                       	Templates	Templates
:Template:FLCL            	Pretty good                             	None                                                                                                                                            	         	
:Template:FLCL-ep         	Finished!                               	None.                                                                                                                                           	         	
Other                     	Other                                   	Other                                                                                                                                           	Other    	Other
FLCL                      	On its way                              	Needs to be better structured and have more international information. READ: Wikipedia:Peer review/FLCL/archive1                                	         	
Characters of FLCL        	Stalled                                 	Someone to finish the template work I got sick of. Don't give me that look.                                                                     	         	
Items and Concepts of FLCL	A lot of work                           	Eternal sunshine of the spotless POV                                                                                                            	         	
As you can see, the episodes of the series have done well, but the albums have languished. Also, the lead article (your albatross and mine) really does need some info from the Japanese end of the stick in order to move much farther than here. Thank you, and goodnight. -Litefantastic 01:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The glorious return of the Status Table

message: Although the fight to FA has slowed considerably, I've renominated FLCL for GA a third time, with the only major outstanding problem being that we still know nothing about the quality of the series' reception in Japan. I've asked them to specifically overlook this for GA purposes, but if we ever get as far as a push for FA we're going to have to go over this thing with a fine toothed comb. I'm also thinking of taking our cause to the Animanga COTW. Any questions? -Litefantastic 20:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The battle wages on

message: In order to get rid of some of the trivia, I propose that we remove the ones that need citations. They are mostly "It is rumored" or something that is likely not to be proven. Tyler 20:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --SeizureDog 06:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much. Tyler 04:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: As a way to make an example, I find this to be unacceptable trivia: "During episode 6 Mamimi uses a phone made by the fictional company "cyberdyine" the same fictional company that made the "Terminator" robots in the film Terminator." It uses not only poor grammar, but it is hardly related to the page. It also NEEDS to have a source. Please, please, please, all users before posting trivia post it in the discussion to be approved and provide your source. Remember, conclusions you make on your own are considered original research. You must cite reliable sources. You want to see this page rise to A, right? If so, then we must follow Wikipedia guidelines. Tyler 04:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Much Trivia 

message: Naota seems to be very frustrated with his life, and in the opening episode is musing about how constrictive and boring Mabase is. This complaint is borne through to the final episode, despite many examples to the contrary.
Is it not perhaps more likely that Naota's narration in the final episode is intended to be ironic, given what he's seen and done? Otherwise, it makes him look like a bit of an idiot, does it not? Kelvingreen 14:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's still just a kid. (-Kid. 13:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it means that things have returned to normal. With Haruko gone, it's as if the whole event hasn't even happened. But also, I think there is a hint of irony in it too. Wilderns 18:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unseen Irony 

message: In this statement in the trivia section, Haruko's bass guitar is a left-handed Azureglo Rickenbacker 4001. Atomsk's is a 1961 Gibson EB-0. Naota's appears to be a 1967 Gibson Flying V., there is no mention of the guitar Naota uses in the final episode. Also, there is no mention of Commander Amarao's guitar either. (The one Haruko uses as a slingshot in episode 5)
Chronamew981 03:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's "the one Naota uses in the final episode"? Do you mean the double guitar that is formed from the two Gibsons; does such a real guitar exist? Are you referring to some other guitar he uses, because I don't remember another. Leebo T/C 03:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could've sworn I read something about the double guitar somewhere before... Anyway, as far as I can tell from the time it's shown in Brittle Bullet, Commander Amarao's guitar is a black Flying V... could someone verify this? I'm not the best when it comes to guitars.Chronamew981 22:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is indeed a twin neck guitar, i also remember that Haruko goes "WoW! a Gibson something something", as i dont have the series here i cant check what model it was or if it actually exists. 12:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Haruko says that when Canti pulls out his Gibson EB-0.Chronamew981 21:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ignored Guitar? 

message: First off I'm gonna say I don't even like that people put the spoiler warnings in articles, but whatever. I'm asking, why does the spoiler warning title END right in basically the middle of the trivia section? There's things in the trivia section that are not spoilers and it just looks sloppy. If someone else sees that it's wrong could you fix it up, or if I'm just being stupid tell me why. lol sorry I can't fix it myself, I'd rather just bring it up and have someone who's good at that sort of stuff decide what to do with it. 
Now that I go back and look at it I realize that the "spoiler" goes through almost the whole article. I think we should just take out the 'warning.' But I don't want to bring up a topic that has probably been argued enough so, if anything please fix it up or tell me to shut up.
 (-Kid. 16:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For now, I just moved it down to the bottom of the trivia section. I'm all for a two-pronged ultimate solution: Limit all spoilers to the plot section and remove spoiler warnings from the article. If someone reads the plot section, they're looking for spoilers, so if we can keep the spoilers there, then we can remove the warnings altogether. Unfortunately, that's a massive rewrite basically. Leebo T/C 16:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler?