Talk:Babur/Archive 2

message: I do not know why this person keeps adding the following paragraph to the article:
"... Babur was a fourteenth generation descendant from the Turkic Barlas tribe which was originally MongolS. A. M. Adshead. "Tamerlane and the Global Arsenal, 1370-1405" from his Central Asia in World History, Chapter 5. Over the generations they had become Turkified in language, manners and custom as they resided in Turkish areas. Therefore the Western term "Mughal" is a misnomer as Babur referred to himself as a Turk, drew most of his support from Turks, and the empire he founded was initially Turkish in characterHambly (1968) Brend, B. (1991). "Islamic Art". Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press.. It is clear, from Babur's writing that he considered himself a Turk. Although Babur was descended on his mother's side from Chingiz Khan's second son, Chaghatai, it is clear that this Mongol lineage meant less to him than his paternal ancestry which linked him with the great Turkish conqueror, Timur. ..."
* He claims that the Berlas were "Turkic", which is not true. The Berlas were MONGOLS. 
* He claims that Babur was a Turk through his paternal line. That is NOT true: Babur was a MONGOL through his paternal line. 
Since this Johnstevens5 himself beliefs that the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911 is the gospel (see Talk:Al-Farabi), I will disprove his claims from his own favourite source:
Taken from the "Timur" article of the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911:
"... TIMUR (Timur i Leng, the lame Timilr), commonly known as, TAMERLANE, the renowned Oriental conqueror, was born in 5336 at Kesh, better known as Shahr-i-Sabz, the green city, situated some 5o m. south of Samarkand in Transoxiana. His father Teragai was head of the tribe of Berlas. Great-grandson of Karachar Nevian (minister of Jagatai, son of Jenghiz Khan, and commander-in-chief of his forces), and distinguished, among his fellow-clansmen as the first convert to Islamism, Teragai might have assumed the high military rank which fell to him by right of inheritance; but like his father Burkul he preferred a life of retirement and study. ... By the death of his father he was also left hereditary head of the Berlas. ..." 
So, as evident from the information of the Britannica, Timur was NOT a Turk, as this person claims, but a MONGOL. 
This needs to be removed from the article! 
Tajik 20:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits by Johnstevens5 

message: Per a request at WP:RfPP, I've now protected this article to prevent further edit-warring. Please use the talk page to discuss changes to the article, and once consensus has been reached and disputes resolved, the article will be unprotected. Please that my protecting the current version, as always, is not an endorsement of that version--I merely protected the version it was at when I got here. AmiDaniel (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: There has been no discussion for weeks and weeks.  Unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway 18:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotecting

message: Thackston writes "Babur's name has also appeared as Baber and Babar. There is not the slightest doubt, however, that the name is Babur (BAH-boor), which is ultimately derived from the Indo-European word for beaver. Although it has often been suggested that Babur means tiger, it has, in fact, nothing to do with the Persian word babr 'tiger' " Wheeler M. Thackston The Babur-nama (New York) 2002 note 1, pxvii —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sikandarji (talk • contribs).
The word "Babr", "Baber", "Babur" and "Babar" are all derived from the Tungusic languages and mean Tiger in each of them. Mongolian and Turkish languages are a part of this family.
::I do not think we can ignore Thackston without good reason: he is the Professor of Persian at Harvard and translator of the Baburnama. If he thinks the name is derived from "Beaver", I'm willing to accept it. "Babr" or "Babar" meaning "Tiger" is also Persian, at least according to Platt's (a dictionary which, rather usefully, indicates the derivation of words with H for Hindi, S for Sanskrit, T for Turkish, P for Persian). See here Sikandarji 23:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Babr" is not a Turkic word, it's Persian. It's even used in ancient Persian, Sogdian, and Bactrian documents, the most famous being the documents of Bactria in which the expressions "Zīn-e babr" and "Zīn-e palang" ("skin of a tiger") are used - a reference to the epic Iranian hero Rustam. See Nicholas Sims-Williams "Bactrian Documents from Ancient Afghanistan". Tājik 00:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No-one has claimed otherwise. --Irishpunktom\talk 11:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the IP-anon did. Tājik 22:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Babur's Name

message: This is a completely absurd assertion. Timurid rule in Central Asia was overthrown by the semi-nomadic Uzbeks under Shaybani Khan who invaded the region in the early 16th century. Babur spent most of his early career fighting them in order to regain Mawara'al-nahr, only retreating to Kabul and then to India when he was defeated. See Khwandamir Habibu's-siyar Tome 3 Part 2 Ed. & Trans Wheeler M. Thackston (Cambridge, Mass./Istanbul: Harvard University Press) pp305-6; Also this.
: This is not the only absurd assertion in the intro. It is also totally absurd to claim that Babur and his tribe spoke the Turkish language which is a member of the Oghuz branch of languages, in contrast to Babur's mother-tongue (Chagatay language).
: It's also totally stupid to state Babur's ethnic background in the intro, because that is explained in detail in the "Origins" section. The importance of the Mughals in India was not their Mongol background or their Persian language (Babur and Humayun were the only rulers who actually spoke Chagatay), but their Muslim faith in a land that was overwhelmingly Hindu. 
: Babur's ethnic background (=Mongol), his language (=Chagatay Turkic), and his culture (=Perso-Arabic) should not be mentioned in the intro, but in the "Origins" section.
: Tājik 21:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's quite right - Chaghatai is a Qarluq Turkic language. I personally think the fact that he was a Timurid is more important than the fact that he was a Muslim (he was only the latest in a long line of Muslim rulers in Upper India, after all) but I won't press the point. I think the "Origins" section is perfectly well-balanced now after long debate, so I do hope nobody feels the need to start mucking around with the intro again in a crude attempt to "claim" Babur for one nationality or another.Sikandarji 07:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Babur as an "Uzbek"

message: This is a minor complaint, but can you add the persian way of spelling the saying "If there is a paradise on earth, it is this, oh it is this, oh it is this" like it was before?
I found the following but I'm not sure if it is correct "Agarfirdaws bar r-yi zamfn ast, hamfn ast u hamfn ast u hamfn".
: The Persian spelling (in Wiki standard) is: "... Agar Pardīs rūye zamīn ast - hamīn ast, wa hamīn ast, wa hamīn ast ...". Tājik 22:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Days