Talk:Pope Adrian VI

message: If he somehow could read wikipedia, Adrian VI, who appears to have been a rather admirable figure amongst some dubious contemporaries, would be pleased to be wanted to be both German and Dutch. He’d probably have favored to be called a world-citizen, just like his contemporary fellowman Erasmus, having grown up in the Low Countries, taught in French and Latin, and served in Spain and Italy. As it is, the introduction contains several inaccuracies that appear to be purposefully maintained to emphasize the perceived German-ness of Adrian. As wikipedia articles are copied like wildfire over the internet, these errors may come to be regarded as the truth (“hey, I googled it and…”), so we better fix it.
*“Utrecht ... Low German-speaking part of” 
:As can be learned from reading either the Low Germanic languages, Low German, or German entries, Low German is officially equivalent to “Low Saxon”, which never was spoken in the city of Utrecht. The Utrecht’s dialect is very close to the Hollandic dialect and to later standardized Dutch, all classified as Low Franconian, which is a separate Low Germanic group of languages exclusively spoken in the Low Countries. While “Dutch-speaking part of” would therefore be a quite accurate description, that appears to be offensive to some.
*“part … of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation”
:Changing this to “part … of the Holy Roman Empire” results in immediate reverts, though the Holy Roman Empire article itself starts out saying that it was not named “Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation” until the 16th century, at which point the bishopric of Utrecht had been sold to the Habsburgs and Utrecht was in the middle of the union of the Seventeen Provinces. 
*“His ancestors were from present-day Germany.”
:I replaced this completely unsupported statement, in place for almost half a year, with “His paternal ancestors, named d'Edel (Dutch for "the Noble"), had lived in Utrecht from at least the mid-14th century .” The link is to a genealogy constructed by a third party, unknown to me, which can be found on several genealogy sites as well (e.g. geneanet). Though I therefore can’t stand for its accuracy, it looks plausible and the amount (=lack) of detail is consistent with a professional job. It’s surprising that as much as this could be found out, perhaps indicating that Adrian wasn’t from all that modest origin after all, though the lack of a link to nobility and (almost by default) to Charlemagne, suggests that this is not an “honorary genealogy” either, so often put together for people of stature. Two of his great-great-uncles were aldermen of Utrecht, and one great-great-great-uncle was vicar of the Utrecht cathedral in 1380 .
:My edit was instantly reverted, mysteriously deemed to be “original research”. I thought that quoting your sources actually is the opposite of what defines original research in wikipedia. Though I’m happy to see that the editor did eventually remove the truly “original research” statement about the ancestors from present-day Germany, isn't Adrian's publicly available genealogy encyclopedic and interesting enough to link to from wikipedia?
*“(whose inhabitants considered themselves to be part of the German nation) …  It was therefore self-evident that he considered himself (Low) German.”
:Besides being repetitive, these apparently nationalistic statements seem as untenable as my guess that Adrian would be pleased to be battled over. This heavily debated subject may originate from a confusion (of non-native speakers?) between the use of Germanic and German in the English language. It appears that the English called both people in the Low Countries and (at least) the northern part of Germany “Dutch” (from Dietsch, Deutsch, Diets, Duuts, Duits, or what you have) (see eg here). The word “German” wasn’t apparently used until 1530 (e.g. , 7 years after Adrian’s death) and then only for people in the German nation, which excluded the Low Countries already. In other words, people from Utrecht have never been called German. In fact, saying that Adrian considered himself German seems less accurate than saying that Luther considered himself Dutch, which you don’t hear too often. I think the word we’re looking for is “Germanic”, which is both true and should be inoffensive to either Dutch or Germans. 
Afasmit 00:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up the introduction

message: This article lists Pope Adrian VI's birth name as Adrian Dedel.
Wikipedia:List of encyclopedia topics/Biographies A lists his birth name as Adrian Florensz.
Both names currently redirect to Pope Adrian VI. 
Are both correct?
Kevyn 10:39, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Adrian Florensz. Dedel (not d'Edel as some joker had made it) means Adrian, son of Florens (Florenszoon) Dedel. The text "he was, however, too weak and confiding to cope with abuses that Jimenes had been able in some degree to check" transmits no useful information beyond a general denigration. I moved it here until we can get a succinct report on Adrian as Inquisitor General. --Wetman 05:46, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discrepancy: Adrian Dedel or Adrian Florensz?

message: See current discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI#First_German_Pope_since_1523_2
* That discussion about Adrian VI on the Benedict XVI talk page has been moved to its archives. I'd love to see it continue, but it would be much more appropriate for it to continue here. -Eisnel 03:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we all agree that neither Germany nor the Netherlands as we know them existed at the time of Adrian VI. I think it would be more correct to refer him according to whatever political boundary he or his ancesters were subjected, be they Burgundian, Bavarian, Saxon, or whatever. --Kvasir 11:25, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, the Germans considered Charles V a German, since he was from Flanders, even though French was his first language.  He quickly disabused them of that.  Utrecht, and the Netherlands in general, were already quite distinct from the rest of the Empire by the end of the 15th century.  If you'd read all my postings on this subject, you'll note that I've not taken one side on this issue at all - I've generally argued against everyone.  I think the question of nationality is simply too complicated for us to either say that Adrian VI was or was not German.  Certainly, in the view of the time, he was a "German" pope, in that these things were not felt to be all that precise.  But he was also a Netherlander, and calling him a Dutch pope would also be correct, because, essentially, "Dutch" (or, more accurately, "Netherlander") was at that time a (relatively distinct) subset of "German," which has since become a separate thing.  If that makes sense. john k 02:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree he should also be called a Dutch or "Netherlander". --83 13:10, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  German, Dutch, or German and Dutch? 

message: Why is the link to the Eastern churches mentioned specifically in this entry - does it not also apply in other cases? Was he the first/did he modify the relationship?
Jackiespeel 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Eastern Churches

message: Ya'll realize it took over 2 yrs, before somebody (namely me) realized someone had changed Pope to Bishop of Rome? GoodDay (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: From Historia della Riviera di Salo 'Bongiani Grattarolo of 1599 (published by Ateneo of Salo, May 1978) is indicated as the place of birth Renzano, fraction of Salò on Lake Garda. Renzano is a testimony Latin engraving on the portal of the small church dedicated to San Nazario. According to the legend handed down by some historians of the time was  Louis Rampini son of Giambone of Rampini , family whose coat of arms appears similar to the pope, who has considerable intellectual abilities starting from Renzano continued his studies following a path that took him to Holland and just in Utrecht. The full text is visible on the website 'Archives of Garda' in. Pdf [1] is the specific part of the original numbering on page 81. Book Two, page 134, or in modern numbering
http://www.archividelgarda.it/uploads/Biblioteca/Monografie/Storia%20della%20Riviera,%20Grattarolo.pdf
This was added by an anon IP in the reference section, I have placed it here for discussion and possible addition to article. Thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The 16th-century Italian of the main page gives google translate a bit of a hard time, so I'm not always getting the drift. The second (modern) footnote on the subject (footnote 9, page 134) says: "In reality it is a legend credited by many historians to the end of the 19th-century", so it is interesting to see that it had started much earlier. Rewritten, it would make for a nice paragraph, even if few have heard of the legend. It kind of emphasizes how unacceptable the idea of a non-Italian bishop of Rome was. Afasmit (talk) 23:00, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph, where to put this? 

message: The following text : Speech of Pope Francis is from the Vatican web site and uses Hadrian VI instead of Adrian VI. Hektor (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hadrian or Adrian

message: From the article: "Hadrian the Seventh is the title of a 1904 novel by Frederick Rolfe, about a fictional English reforming pope who takes the name "Hadrian" after the only historical English pope Adrian IV, 1154–1159. "
This has no bearing on Adrian VI at all, as the sentence itself states: it has a, tangential, relation to Adrian IV, not Adrian VI. I am removing this. 82.176.221.176 (talk) 10:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: has reverted this edit because, and I quote, "it did not appear constructive". I would like to ask him to provide an argument why a reference to this book is relevant to an article about pope Adrian VI rather than just reverting without any form of discussion. 82.176.221.176 (talk) 10:27, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture section 

message: Following Arnaud Van Holland Genealogy, we see that his mother was, probably, either a sister of Adrian, or Claes's daughter, is there any other source besides the notes given in Brazil about this part of the D'Edel Family?
FamilySearch Link: Encontrei essa pessoa no FamilySearch:
Arnaud Florentz Boeyens Van Holland
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/L6QC-JCS
There's also a wikipedia article mentioning their relation as brother and sister LuisVanHolland (talk) 01:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  His sister