Talk:Jim Steinman

message: To avoid the millions of redirects, can the title of this article not be Jim Steinman? The Richard Wagner is not called 'Wilhelm Richard Wagner'. A page move would make sense as this is the name that he is known by (the opening paragraph would still, of course, include his full name). The JPS 16:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name. Page move? 

message: I believe that image came from Jim's "BAD FOR GOOD" album art.
:That is where I know it from - Antmusic 21:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe JD can authorize some more photos? 204.120.207.2 21:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Publicity Still 

message: I like your idea of expanding the article on Jim Steinman.  Personally, I am a big fan of Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf (Meat Loaf is how I heard of Jim Steinman).  I just want to add my support for expanding the article by saying I would love to have much more information on Jim Steinman — and his outstanding records as well!!  I agree, Steinman truly is a musical genious and (call me stupid if you want) the whole world should be familiar with him and his amazing works!
~ djh2400 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djh2400 (talk • contribs) 00:48, 31 May 2006
I agree, good job
~ Commander vlad
:As long as we remember to keep a neutral point of view. We shouldn't really duplicate much of what's in the other articles: which means keeping it relevant to Steinman, rather than his work (if his work is discussed in a separate artilce). There has been some really bad additions to this article recently. The priority at the moment is to add references (I've started doing that). It's not about expanding the article at the moment, it's about making it better.The JPStalk to me 21:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this article still reads like a fan site, and it's really one of the poorest articles on Wikipedia. I keep trying to rectify the problems, but anons come along and add fancruft stuff... It's quite limited in view: what about Def Leppeard, etc.? The JPStalk to me 11:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's Floodland by The Sisters of Mercy, too. -- Beardo 14:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the album covers should go. The JPStalk to me 17:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Expansion 

message: As I see it, some of the problems this page used to have stemmed from repeating things that definitely can be cited, but cannot be proven. The thing about Steinman is, there are lots of magazine articles and interviews about him that repeat all kinds of wild anecdotes, exaggerations, and bizarre speculations. A lot of those just got repeated onto this page, as if the journalist of a rock&roll magazine is "official", and as if every amusing anecdote from an interview with Steinman is true just because he said it. In a way, this page was probably more "citable" before I got my hands on it, in the sense that you could have put at the bottom a good long list of interviews and articles that say the same ridiculous things this article used to say. For example this article used to say that Steinman's college student theater project was hailed by critics as a masterpiece. There seriously is an article you could cite that says this, written by somebody who may not have even been there for the show. (In fact, some of the articles about what the 1969 Dream Engine show was like seriously were written by people who, I have since learned, never attended the show). I deleted that because I was thinking, why would there be "critics" for a student production? The student productions I've been to rarely had critics or reviews. 
With Steinman, any efforts to do a real Steinman biography are plagued by all the myths and legends about Jim Steinman that are codified in print, including interviews with him. It is my personal belief that Jim Steinman sometimes has been guilty of exaggeration and telling anecdotes that are amusing but not exactly accurate.
This current article, as it stands right now, is mostly the result of a combination of my skepticism, and reading about Steinman through materials that have circulated among fans. I've tried to leave in things that:
- could conceivably be proven true if they absolutely had to be
- I have heard with my own ears or seen with my own eyes
- can be read on an official credits list for some musical work
- don't seem like they could have been said for the purpose of "entertainment" or "amusement" or "astonishment" or "promotion"
- are not contradicted by other information
So, pretty much, I've sacrificed "citability" in favor of some of the other qualities desired on wikipedia.
There are some sections on here that used to read like a fan site written by a 13 year old. I honestly don't believe the people who inserted that content were trying to make it that way. I think they were just trying to incorporate what is said in the only written materials available about Steinman.
Another comment I want to make. On the paragraph about his legal battle with Meat Loaf, the many short articles published by rock&roll journalists said a lot of contradictory things. I was interested in the case back then, and I obtained the court documents for the case (which are not hard to get) and read them (some of them are not very long) and what I've written there is my own very brief summary, in my own words, of what they say. Some of the rock&roll journalists who wrote about the case obviously did not read those documents, yet those journalists are, in a way, citable and I am not. So you see, building a wikipedia article out of "citable" statements can have both advantages and disadvantages.
Anyhow that is kind of a long comment but it should give some insight as to why I felt the need to, by myself, so completely overhaul an article that already had input from so many people.
:Thanks for your work. We've spoken on your talk page, but best continue it here for transparency. I agree with much of what you're said. Some of the writing was quite poor, but I put that down to non-native speakers (there was often repetition of "Jim Steinman", rather than Steinman in subsequent references). There are two issues:
:*Citing reliable sources is essential. We can get around the hyperbole by using phrases such as "In an 19xx interview, he said that..." This statement would be accurate without us claiming whatever claim to be so. Meat Loaf usually favours an entertaining interview in the expense of an accurate one.) If Steinman has claimed something in a reliable source, then that's fine. It is not up to us to decide what to ignore/what is exaggeration. In short, it is absolutely essential, per WP:BLP, that we have citations.Of course, reliable sources can be wrong, but we need other reliable sources to prove that! As I say, careful phrasing will help. Meat Loaf's autobiography can be referenced: not a book I suspect to be completely accurate, but as mere Wikipedia editors it is simply not our role to action that assumption. "Meat Loaf claims that...", however, would be completely accurate.
:*The structure seems very fragmented, and is as I've seen some fansites. I think we should adopt a more chronological stance. It's supposed to be a biography of him, not his work (although his work will necessarily play a major component). Paul McCartney is a good example here. The JPStalk to me 10:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. In the past the article had the entire right hand side full of alum covers, and it looked tacky. It could be argued that the first two Bats are notable, but you're right about playing favourites.As for awards, yeah, keep the most notable on this page, and the rest can go in the specific article for whatever album. The JPStalk to me 11:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, we shouldn't actually have that image of him at the top because it's a non-free image of someone who is still alive (meaning a free alternative can be created). I wonder if one of the fans from the OTT/Dream Engine shows could be persuaded to release one of their photos under a free license? The JPStalk to me 11:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorted! Would the photographer like to be named? The JPStalk to me 09:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: comment

message: I just want to make a note here that I've sent the free license email thing to the permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org email address. It's for this picture:
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/cdb_07/wikistein.jpg 
It was taken in June of 2005 in Uncasville, CT at the Mohegan Sun casino. Steinman was there for a show of his work called Over The Top: The Songs of Jim Steinman, and a concert spectator took the photo when Steinman was giving autographs. 
I'll have to figure out how to get it onto the Steinman page.
:Sorted! Would the photographer like to be named? The JPStalk to me 09:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of Steinman 

message: I decided that the previous photo (described in the section directly above this one) was a bit scary-looking. The photographer, Dave Akerman, agreed with me. I changed it to the current photo with permission from its creator. See the photo page for more details. Bellminer (talk) 04:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New photo of Steinman 

message: OK, the article's developed a lot. This is what I reckon we need:
*a reliable source for facts relating to his person.
*once everything has a source, we can send the article to peer review to get outsider's opinions.
*One we've addressed any concerns after that we can elect it for good article status, which would identify it as one of the higher quality articles (approx. 1 in 711 articles are 'good'). The JPStalk to me 09:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  next step 

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 17:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I assessed the article as "start".  Even though the article has a lot of good content in it, it is badly under-referenced and needs clean-up.  Once the referencing is done, it should be easy to bring it up to B-class.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Sorry to post like this is a fansite, but I can't find an answer anywhere on the net, and I know that people reading this discussion page will have something to say about it. 
Here is my question: What is "the end of the line" lyric about? 
Why the does almost every song Jim Steinman ever wrote have the phrase "end of the line" in it? It was used on Meat Loaf Bat Out of Hell in the 70s, re-used in almost every song on Bat Out of Hell II in the 90s, used in songs for Bonnie Tyler, etc.. 
What is this? Does this reference something? Is "the end of the line" something good? Or something bad?
This might end up being useful for the article, as it is somehow connected to Steinman, just how an article about one of the greatest athletes of all time, Yogi Berra, would be woefully incomplete without a mention of Yogiisms.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.100.147 (talk) 21:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the Meaning of This Oft-used Steinman Lyric? 

message: In August 2007, infoboxes were added noting that the following sections needed citations: 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s. I completed the citations for 1960s and 1970s back in March 2009. I have just completed citations for 1980s and 1990s. FYI. :-) bellminer (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks. Now we have to find better references than the IMDb, as Wikipedia doesn't consider that a reliable source. Could we all please remember that punctuation always becomes before the ref tags? The JPStalk to me 10:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops, my bad. bellminer (talk) 19:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Should there be a list of produced albums? Portillo (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Added --Neo139 (talk) 21:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography 

message: Is Steve Steinman (who has collaborated on some Meat Loaf-related projects) his son? 64.8.155.45 (talk) 16:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Son?

message: All the Steinman attributions make no differentiation between songs written by him, and the songs produced by him. This is misleading as well as confusing, and should be rectified for the sake of clarity. I hope someone else will fix it. If not, I'll try to wade through it if I get time. Gil gosseyn (talk) 00:52, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro paragraph projects confusion. 

message: I've shifted a new edit, about his being Jewish American, from the intro to the Personal Life section, where this sort of thing seems to sit in most biographies about people from the United States. I've also added a citation from an admittedly poor source: a brief reference in an old newspaper article which has been reprinted on what looks like a fan site. It's all I could find, sorry. Meticulo (talk) 00:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish American