Talk:Xhemal Pasha Zogu

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved to Xhemal Pasha Zogu.   SilkTork (talk) 19:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Jemal Pasha Zogolli →  – The 4th page moved by User:Seemitfe without justification or consensus. The previous name, Xhemal Pasha Zogu, is in use far more than this one. Djks1 (talk) 16:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Support move to Xhemal Pasha Zogolli. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read Wikipedia:Official names and WP:COMMONNAME. Official names or names that the family prefer are not part of our criteria for the article name; we use the names most commonly used by reliable sources. What the subject's son prefers is not something we take into account when considering which name to select for a Wikipedia article. The discussion here should focus on which name is most commonly used in reliable sources for this person. I was unable to read the source you linked - however, your comment that the Turkish suffix "olli" was removed would surely support "Xhemal Pasha Zogu"? SilkTork (talk) 16:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I know WP guidelines very well and you just need to google search the names (minus others) and you'll see that Xhemal Pasha Zogolli its used in almost all literature and other reliable sources. One cannot change but its own lastname. Noone can change his dead father, let alone garndfather or other ancestors. Their original surname is thought to be Zogaj (a common lastname among Northern Albanians), but Ahmet Zogu change it because was more simple and more Albanian sound. Bes-ARTTalk 17:23, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sure you do understand WP guidelines. However, the situation we have here is that the nomination above provided convincing evidence that Xhemal Pasha Zogu is the name most used in reliable sources. That nomination was stalled because of a claim of the use of an official name, which is not part of our guideline. There is now a claim that "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli its used in almost all literature and other reliable sources". Please provide those sources rather than asserting they exist or asking me (or anyone else) to find them. The onus is now on you to prove that "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli" is used in more reliable sources than "Xhemal Pasha Zogu". If you are unable to do that, and there are no more arguments one way or the other then I'll have to close this move request as no consensus and it will remain at the existing name until a new move request is made. SilkTork (talk) 17:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Basically every author who has written about the family uses the surname Zogolli for ancestors. So this is not about WP:COMMONNAME because it does not make sense, this is about a person who has changed his last name but to his ancestors are left with the old last name. There is also no way to have a disagreement when the proposer himself agrees to use Zogolli. Research does not tell exactly about one or the other because it is comprehensive. Both Zogu and Zogolli are mentioned in the same book, and it is normal for the results to be higher. If others will have to vote then wait a little longer and you are free to close it with one or the other but not leave it as it is as long as it was not moved thought an request but as seen, by a member who has made moves not based on any of the guidelines Bes-ARTTalk 21:25, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

text: SilkTork, I initially proposed moving to Xhemal Pasha Zogu. However, the surname "Zogu" was not in use until 1922, when the son, Ahmet, changed it, which is 11 years after Xhemal's death. Xhemal was called "Zogolli" (a Turkified version of the Albanian name, probably) during his lifetime and for 11 years after his death. So, despite "Zogu" being more commonly used due to his famous son, I belive it would fall under what I quoted above, Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. I assume a source would be needed to prove that "Zogu" is not the accurate name. But again, would Wikipedia accept naming an article with a name that the person never legally used and was never changed to in his lifetime? I wouldn't know. Djks1 (talk) 13:48, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your input Djks1. The name is not inaccurate because it is the name that is used by most reliable sources. It was a name change made by his own son. See Alexander the Great - his legal and official name, and the one used during his lifetime was Alexander III of Macedon, and that is how the article starts in the lead, giving his more common name of "Alexander the Great" later. He was first named "the Great" by Quintus Curtius Rufus several hundred years after his death, and that name is now how he is mostly known in the West, so that is the name we use here on the English Wikipedia. Though on the Macedonian Wikipedia he is known as Alexander of Macedonia:  So, yes, Wikipedia does use names for various subjects, including people, that are not "legal" or "official". See WP:Official names for more information on this. Unless there is a rationale that fits in with Wikipedia criteria  to move this article to  "Xhemal Pasha Zogolli" then I can't in good conscience do it. I can either close this as no consensus, and you folks can ask again, and you may find an admin more sympathetic to your cause, or you folks can change your !votes to "Xhemal Pasha Zogu" and I'll move it to that name. Just let me know. SilkTork (talk) 14:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I understand the rational. I am fine with either Xhemal Pasha Zogu or Xhemal Pasha Zogolli. Either is preferable to the current name ("Jemal"), which is barely even used. Djks1 (talk) 14:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: OK Djks1, if Ahmet Q., AjaxSmack, or Bes-ART (or anyone else) raise no objections in the next 48 hours I'll move the article to Xhemal Pasha Zogu. SilkTork (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

text: *No objection.  —  AjaxSmack  15:38, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 25 September 2021