Talk:Michael Shellenberger

message: I think the Jim Green review might be useful for this article. I note that Green is a Ph.D. in the field and sufficiently active to have a Wikipedia article. Also, reading the review a bit, it seemed there might be substantive and well-sourced criticism. However in the edit-war text the comment on nuclear weapons is the only substantive part. 
Here is a slightly rewritten version. The first sentence generic tarring of Shellenberger should be replaced with specific disagreement in order to be useful for this article, assuming people decide the review is credible enough.
: Reviewing Apocalypse Never nuclear power activist Jim Green states that Shellenberger's many claims about nuclear issues are based on selective use of expert views, or attributed to anonymous 'experts' or even 'friends', or based on nothing at all. The review also notes that Shellenberger downplays or denies the many interconnections between nuclear power and weapons.
-- M.boli (talk) 05:00, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. While clearly a more balanced approach to this particular text I don't think this adds much to the Forbes review in the previous paragraph which covers the same material with better sourcing. But yes, you have picked out the one possible area that could be used. I see that we also have an article on World Information Service on Energy who are behind Nuclear Monitor. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:08, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jim Green Review 

message: I added this edit in earlier but you reverted it and gave odd reasoning on that the "Snope article made it clear" that my edit is wrong. Except I have read the Snopes article fully 7 times now. It says that Michael had stated that "climate change doesn't worsen natural disasters" despite many peer reviewed quality research has proven him wrong on that claim. So why exactly can't I add this in? Can you elaborate? 49.181.82.64 (talk) 08:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: THe problem is the meaning of "worse". As Snopes says, MS entirely plausibly takes worse as "kills more people"; and they don't. So your bald science-sez-no is inappropriate William M. Connolley (talk) 11:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's tad arbitrary on the wording on "worse" but I understand your point. People can go misinterpret what "worse" is meant to mean. But have you read his Forbes article? Full of self promotion and basically telling people to go let climate change happen as he says people shouldn't worry about the impacts. His words are dangerously irresponsible and people should know the context that peer reviewed research shows he is so wrong. And the people he cites for his claims, are complaining that he misunderstood or purposefully mischaracterizing their points.49.181.82.64 (talk) 13:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

text: And if you read the section on "Apocalypse Never". Wikipedia makes him sound like a revolutionary thinker. However a fact checking website has shown what he wrote and that he misrepresent his sources. I think such info is correct, necessary and highly relevant, and so I added it in, as it was missing before.49.181.82.64 (talk) 13:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Be careful if you hate his self-promotion because that's not the issue here, but may bias you. Your that peer reviewed research shows he is so wrong is I think incorrect: you're doing what so many of his opponents have done, which is to confuse the physical climate change with the consequences (yes, it will get warmer; that may well have (taken in isolation) negative consequences for food production; but it is very likely that overall food production per capita will continue to increase; and certainly no peer reviewed research says otherwise. If you disagree with that last point, please don't just say so, actually cite the reseach). FWIW, with Instead Holt-Giménez criticised the industrial farming that Shellenberger advocates, and say that such practises are using a model of overproduction, and generates poverty. And explained that people typically don't become hungry because there is not enough food, but that instead they become hungry when they are too poor to afford to buy the food that is produced I think you've drifted badly off the point and revealed your biases, to the lengths of actually discrediting the viewpoint you're, errm, somewhat pushing. But I'll leave that to you to fix, or not William M. Connolley (talk) 20:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, self-promotion is an issue regarding motivation and personality of an author, and it might be strongly related to Shellenberger's mindset and cultural background. In order to truely understand what an author is talking about, and where it is sensible to question his approch, you always need to know about his basic mindset. 2001:9E8:AA97:C000:85F4:878E:6BD9:A270 (talk) 10:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting of edit? 

message: This article is mostly book reviews. There are so many, the Apocalypse Never section is actually longer than the entire article dedicated to the book! That whole section is way too long. Other sections can be trimmed and he book articles expanded. -- GreenC 13:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay... Apocalypse Never is a very controversial thing, especially regarding attacs from, as well as attacks on, his critics. So in fact, this issue needs to have a relatively long section in order to reflect controversial discussions related to it. 2001:9E8:AA97:C000:85F4:878E:6BD9:A270 (talk) 10:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trim 

message: The only things we learn about his cultural background is "Mennonnite" and "congregationalist", which leads to Menno Simons of the Netherlands, as well as to anti-democratic Jehan Cauvin aka Jean Calvin, related to the Netherlands, Switzerland, escape from Habsburg rule, and, last but not least, a ruthless montheism of Cauvin's parents (i.e. more extreme and more intolerant monotheism compared to Menno Simons, explicitly killing other people for "blasphemic words"). All of this is not very helpful to understand Shellenberger's mindset. How come that other kids with his background do not draw similar conclusions about human life on mother earth? There must be more to it ;) 2001:9E8:AA97:C000:85F4:878E:6BD9:A270 (talk) 09:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: See my comment above under "Early Life?" Milesnfowler (talk) 16:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parents & cultural background 

message: This page has been taken over by biased people who are now adding what is obviously disinformation. Brahman12 (talk) 03:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have specific critism, bring it. (Your wish to add unrelated stories as the one in the discussion above does not count.) --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:55, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Special:Diff/1198838408/1199022298: probably we are seeing or will see students showing up to complain of censorship or worse and then report it back to Shellenberger. It would be a "Grade A" example of WP:COI editing. I hope as part of his "responsible free speech", Shellenberger tells his students they should not be editing their teachers Wikipedia article. -- GreenC 18:09, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably haven't seen that yet, so the worst is yet to come. The influx of editing you're seeing here is probably related to UFO and conspiracy nuts latching onto this page (see: 28 minutes into this video for specific conspiracies about this page, but the whole thing is a trip). YFRMM (talk) 16:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I have not spoken with anyone on or off-wiki about this page before (other than on this page) - unlike the people in that that video, who actually are behaving like the definition of a cabal. See WP:CABAL. -- GreenC 18:21, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

text: I am not a student of Shellenberger and have never met him. The fact that you are spreading lies and disinformation should disqualify you from being a Wikipedia editor. Brahman12 (talk) 00:40, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: First, WP:NPA. Then specify exactly what "lies and disinformation" you feel should be removed. - LuckyLouie (talk) 02:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the editors, Thriley, proved the bias on this page. Removing the title of free speech and censorship expert makes no sense. How is it that Shellenberger has a position on this at the University of Austin and somehow it can just be removed? Shellenberger isn't perfect by any means. But c'mon. Free speech and enlightenment values are the backbone of his work. Brahman12 (talk) 03:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  As of this moment, with your edit removed, the lede contains As of November 2023, Shellenberger is the CBR Chair of Politics, Censorship and Free Speech at the University of Austin (est. 2024). This seems to be much the text you want, so I don't see your problem William M. Connolley (talk) 09:40, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The "problem" of users starting sections with names like "Bias" is usually that the article reflects reliable sources instead of the user's opinion. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:13, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

text:  See Freedom_of_speech#Relationship_with_disinformation. Free Speech is a two-bladed sword it can be used for good or bad. For example Alex Jones, also in Texas, his company has the words "Free Speech" in it. For him, free speech means he can publicly say whatever he wants, truth or lies. And as we all know, he famously lost his case and now owes like a billion dollars or something for decades of lies ("free speech"). So I am not impressed by anyone claiming Free Speech because which side of the sword are they swinging, the good or the bad. -- GreenC 16:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for being honest about your bias and your intention to edit this page not on the basis of factual objective information. The question here is whether Shellenberger is a free speech expert or not. The question is not over whether free speech is good or bad or where the government should draw the line. Brahman12 (talk) 19:43, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

text: You appear to have an agenda which is in violation of Wikipedia editing standards. This is a factual question. Is Shellenberger a free speech expert? Brahman12 (talk) 19:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Given his multiple congressional testimonies, his journalism, and his appointment at University of Austin, he obviously is. Brahman12 (talk) 19:48, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

text: That's true whether or not you agree with Shellenberger's views of free speech. Please stop turning this page into an opinion piece. It is supposed to be objective. Brahman12 (talk) 19:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Most people want to understand the basics about an author. That's why they go to Wikipedia. This page remains filled with people who appear to be pursuing old grudges. Brahman12 (talk) 03:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever wrote 'was also mentioned" rather than "is" appears to be driven by the same kind of bias that has affected this page in other ways. Time named Shellenberger a "Hero of the Environment." Whoever wrote "was also mentioned as" appears to be suggesting it didn't receive the recognition, or is trying to downplay it. People should reserve their beefs with Shellenberger for oped pieces not Wikipedia. Brahman12 (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Time awarded them the Hero of the Environment’ award. Full stop. If you don’t like it write an Oped. Don’t manipulate Wikipedia Brahman12 (talk) 00:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: According to the institutes websites about page, it was founded in 2007. However, the institute is already mentioned in a 2005 article form the NYT. Curiously, reading Mr. Shellenbergers page on the institutes website one stumbles over an even earlier date, 2003. So we got three different dates, each used for a different wiki article. Might be good to look into making it consistent across all three pages, hence I will start this topic for the other two pages as well.
Kind regards, 178.115.75.53 (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: April 2004 is provable existence: https://web.archive.org/web/20040407202629/http://www.thebreakthrough.org/about.php .. the domain was first registered in December 2003. A fair guess is late 2003, this is supported by the domain registry, and Shellenberger's comment, and first Wayback capture a few months later. The mystery is why the current website says 2007  -- GreenC 05:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breakthrough Institute founded in 2005? 

message: I'm starting a new section because the Time 2008 "Hero of the Environment" article has grown into a topic of discussion by itself.
 wrote above: . This is not congruent with the source, the Time 2008 articles themselves. They in no way talk about any award, neither do they describe anything award-like. Neither the introductory article, explaining their "Hero of the Environment" batch of articles, nor the article specifically on Shellenberger and Nordhouse, can be interpreted to say an "award" was bestowed. The Time articles profile people and organizations their environment reporters regarded as having done notable things for the environment in 2008. 
So instead of "award", I edited the paragraph -- which is under the heading Awards and accolades -- to describe the accolade. I think describing what the Time writers liked about Shellenberger and Nordhouse is more informative. And, by the way, can hardly be seen as biased against them. -- M.boli (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we need that text there? It is already covered higher up; and while arguably an "accolade" is not, as you say, an award William M. Connolley (talk) 09:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

text: “Time Hero of the Environment” is an award. It’s not a feature section. Brahman12 (talk) 03:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: By the article's own terms, it is "[a] special report on the eco-pioneers fighting for a cleaner, greener future."  I can't find anything in the article that contextualizes it as an award.  Can you point to something that says that?  It would be appreciated.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 03:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You're abusing this platform and using it to promote an agenda. I'm surprised no one has stepped in and told you such? Brahman12 (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

text: subst:NPOVN-notice Brahman12 (talk) 17:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

text: According to Merriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of award is " to confer or bestow as being deserved or merited or needed,"https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/award with confer defined as "to give (something, such as a property or characteristic) to someone or something"https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/confer by the same dictionary. Taking these two definitions, it is certainly reasonable to characterize the 2008 Time Magazine title "Hero of the Environment" as an award. Even critics of Shellenberger have published book reviews in academic journalshttps://doi.org/10.1111/cobi.13923 that specifically state "he won a Hero of the Environment prize in 2008" coupled with a number of publications both domestichttps://chicagocitywire.com/stories/641930010-chicago-gop-on-president-s-reelection-bid-biden-cannot-erase-his-administration-s-disastrous-record-over-the-last-four-years and abroadhttps://www.lawsociety.org.nz/news/newsroom/one-time-time-magazine-hero-to-speak-at-nz-conference/ that have described Shellenberger as "winning" or being "awarded" hero of the environment. Given the dictionary definition of the word "award," the burden of proof falls on the dissenting position to provide evidence that the 2008 Time title "Hero of the Environment" is not an award. I will be changing the description on the main Wikipedia page to reflect the reality of the award given the aforementuoned sources and dictionary definition. MysticMagpie (talk) 19:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't use dictionary definitions to label things "award". That is WP:SYNTH. Time does not call it an award, so WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Otherwise I will take this endless back and forth to the administrator noticeboard. Zenomonoz (talk) 21:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

text: If you use a platform to downplay the accomplishments of people, making Wikipedia less reliable and accurate in the process, then how is pointing that out breaking the rules? Brahman12 (talk) 19:29, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is the existing text of the article at this time. How is this downplaying the subject's accomplishments?  - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is that the award is not mentioned in the awards section. It's petty to not mention it there where it is more visible.   Brahman12 (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

text: The whole page is slanted against Shellenberger. His views are misrepresented on multiple fronts.  Brahman12 (talk) 20:58, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Try the WP:POVN. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time 2008 article 

message: There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.   Thank you. Brahman12 (talk) 17:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice of neutral point of view noticeboard discussion 

message: Shellenberger made a mistake in the Twitter Files Brazil, made a correction and apologized on Twitter. Please incorporate.
https://noticias.uol.com.br/politica/ultimas-noticias/2024/04/11/jornalista-admite-erro-ao-afirmar-que-moraes-quis-processar-advogado-do-x.htm
https://www.brasilwire.com/brazilian-lawyer-exposes-deceit-at-heart-of-twitter-files/ KurtR (talk) 23:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update Twitter Files Brazil