Talk:Plantation of Ulster

message: Domer I have found out how to see who's changed stuff and I see you added a link to the Nine-Years War. Unfortunately you linked it to the Nine-Years War of the later 17th century (Williamite War) rather than the war in question which occured at the end of the 16th century and beginning of the 17th. If you want to fix it to the correct war please work away, I'm not sure how to do the links yet, if I work them out I'll fix it myself.
I see you were also looking for more citations in various places which I've added. Cyril Falls did indeed state that there were few towns in Ulster before the Plantation but, as it's an undisputable fact, many other authors have said the same. I've added another reference (P. Robinson) and removed the "according to Cyril Falls" bit, if more references are needed I'll find them!--Corvus cornix 1958 (talk) 00:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nine-Years War

message: I've edited large sections of the Plantation in Operation, Wars of the Three Kingdoms and Legacy sections.
Detailed references have been provided, mostly books including page numbers. If there are any disputes about these I'll happily provide quotes from the relevant pages.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corvus cornix 1958 (talk • contribs) 15:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: Just passing through and noticed some familiar sentences. 
For example, compare "Because of political uncertainty in Ireland, and the risk of attack by the dispossessed Irish, the undertakers had difficulty attracting settlers (especially from England). This meant that they were forced to keep Irish tenants, destroying the original plan of segregation between settlers and natives. " (Paragraph 2 of 'The Plantation in Operation')
with the first part of paragraph 4 of 
http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirfer2/Ulster_Plantation.htm
and "In the 1630s many Scots went home after King Charles I of England forced the Prayer Book of the Church of England on the Church of Ireland, thus compelling the Presbyterian Scots to change their form of worship. In 1638, an oath was imposed on the Scots in Ulster, 'The Black Oath', binding them on no account to take up arms against the King." (Paragraph 2 of 'The Wars of the Three Kingdoms and Ulster Plantation')
with some of paragraph 6 of the same page.
I have no idea who came first and since each page has additional information that the other doesn't, it seems likely that one author of one page did a poor job of paraphrasing some content from the other page.  Anyone have an opinion or feel like re-writing the identical sections so that Wikipedia ensures it is taking the high road? Tre1234 08:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright infringement? 

message: It is interesting that while the figure of 4000 planters killed in the rising of 1641 is often quoted it is rarely mentioned that the plantation exercise involved the calculated slaughter of an estimated 30000 plus native irish ,men women and children, and subsequently under the  Cromwellian " Hell or to Connaught "campaign thousands more were murdered and  up to 60000 native Irish hunteddown  by "Man catchers" to provide white slaves to be sold for thye sugar plantations and brothels  of the Barbados not to mention the thousands others transported as indentured servants. The political mindset of Ulster Protestants is still that they civilised the inferior native Irish. Little wonder the native Irish continue to rise in rebellion on a regular basis in the province of Ulster.81.131.16.200 06:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  plantation of Ulster 

message: Did any Protestant Scottish Highlanders settle in Ulster? Where has it been stated that Protestant Scottish Highlanders settled in Ulster? I thought Ulster was planted exclusively by English and Lowland Scot settlers.
::In the initial plantation in 1610 it was specified that the settlers had to be English speaking and Protestant, but in the decades that followed, many thousands more immigrants arrived from Scotland, many of whom were Gaelic speaking Highlanders. Not all of the Scots were Protestants  either, the MacDonnell or MacDonald clan were Catholics and settled extensively in the north of county Antrim.
Jdorney 23:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protestant Scottish Highlanders in Ulster 

message: Surely the Irish,who were defending their land against an English invasion,can't be called rebels,they were defending not rebelling.If there is no objection I'll delete the words rebels.--Jack forbes (talk) 14:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebels? 

message: Actually there were a large number of white English females in the English North American settlements as evidenced by the small amount of Native American DNA found in modern white Americans unlike the Mexicans and other Latin Americans whose maternal DNA shows a significant Indian admixture. jeanne (talk) 12:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Specifically, the early VA colony had more men in the beginning, but in contrast New England was characterized by being settled by families and young couples.  VA did start to attract more women, but the colony had a higher mortality rate for years for both sexes than was the case in New England.--Parkwells (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Women In American colonies

message: I am going to amend the section entitled "Ulster Plantation and the Scottish Border Problem".  In particular there are several problems with the following assertion - "Not all of the Scottish planters were Lowlanders, however, and there is also evidence of Scots from the southwest Highlands settling in Ulster. Many of these would have been Gaelic speakers like the native Ulster Catholics, continuing a centuries-old exchange".  
Saying that evidence exists of highland Gaelic Scots being planted in Ulster is not the same as providing the evidence.  Moreover, if there were Gaelic speaking highlanders planted in Ulster they did not come on the basis of the centuries old tradition of highlanders serving Irish chieftains and being rewarded with their own land and cattle.  They, if they were planted, would have been part of a system which brought the previous Gaelic political, economic and social system to a complete end, whereas previously they fitted seamlessly into that system.  The plantation put an end to the "centuries old exchange" between Gaelic Ulster and Gaelic Scotland, but it began a new era of exchange between Anglo Ulster and Anglo Scotland.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Owenreagh (talk • contribs) 19:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish Gaelic Planters 

message: It would be better to have just one form of notes or citations, rather than two.--Parkwells (talk) 14:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I had a go at the references, and removed the ref's not in use. Two will need page numbers.--Domer48'fenian' 17:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes and references

message: Hi all
I have been reading this as I came across it in a random article search, lots of information I didn't know before !!
It has got me thinking a lot about the history of Ireland and how we English took advantage of those peoples closest to us. Anyway, keep up the good works. I did make some small changes to punctuation etc, but hopefully these are not too serious !
Cheers--Chaosdruid (talk) 02:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good reading 

message: I've removed text which was tacked onto referenced material. Such as "The Plantation of Ulster is often considered the origin of sectarian strife in the northern Irish province. The Planters of the 17th century are often considered the ancestors of todays primarily Protestant Unionist community, who dsire to maintain the link with Britain." Compleatly unreferenced. As is "Conversely, the mostly Catholic Irish nationalist community is often thought of as being the descendant of the natives dispossessed by the Plantation." Likewise "It is also commonly held that Catholics tend to have Irish surnames while Protestants tend can be identified by English or Scottish ones." This also is incorrect "However, historian of 17th century Ulster John McCavitt has warned..." McCavitt has not warned anyone. 
This was also added "The Plantation, as the origin of ethno-religious division in Ulster, is sometimes cited as being the long term cause of the Partition of Ireland in 1921." Who has cited it? This was just added without any attempt at referencing. The exact same thing was done here with this "However it has also been argued that the politics of modern Ulster unionists can be traced back no further than the late 19th century. And that, for example in the late 18th century, many Ulster Protestants subscribed to the seperatist nationalism of the Society of the United Irishmen. " Just simply adding text without any referencing.
I have requested references recently, which have still not been provided, and have asked again but to no avail. I can only ask yet again, could Editors please cite sources fully, providing as much publication information as possible, including page numbers when citing books. Thanks,--Domer48'fenian' 23:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet again, this unreferenced opinion has been re-added to the article without any discussion. Edit warring is no substitute for referenced text. --Domer48'fenian' 13:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding text to referenced text 

message: I am going to clarify the final sentences of the "legacy" section:
"For example, it is often stated that Ken Maginnis surname is closer to original Irish than Martin McGuinness." 
It should be noted that the pronunciation of both "Maginnis" and "McGuinness" is exactly the same and neither version is closer than the other to the original Irish orthography, which is "Mag Aonghusa". 
"Another good example is Terence O'Neill former Prime Minister of NI, who is descended from the famous O'Neill clan in Ulster."
It should be noted that despite bearing the name of O'Neill, this line of the family in fact assumed the surname by Royal license in lieu of their original name Chichester. In turn, the Chichesters could trace the O'Neill part of their lineage through Mary Chichester, wife of the Reverend Arthur Chichester, rector of Randalstown, and daughter of Henry O'Neill of Shane's Castle.  —Preceding unsigned 
:Provide references, you've been told often enough. --Domer48'fenian' 14:56, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.--Domer48'fenian' 19:51, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: I recently made a number of edits to the article, most of which were simply grammatical (see the differences here). However, User:Domer48 reverted those edits with no other explanation than "per sources".
===Introduction===
If you have any objections please explain them here in detail.
This is the old introduction:
The Plantation of Ulster (Irish: Plandáil Uladh) was planned in 1598 with the process of colonisation taking place in 1609. All the estates of the O'Neills, the Earls of Tyrone, the O'Donnells of Tyrconnell and their chief supporters were confiscated. The estates comprised an estimated half a million acres (4,000 km²) of land (waste, woodland and bog were uncounted) in the counties of Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Coleraine (Londonderry) and Armagh in the northern Irish province of Ulster.T. A. Jackson, p. 51. 
'British’ tenants',Edmund Curtis, p. 198. a term applied to the Protestant English and Scottish planters,T.W Moody & F.X. Martin, p. 190. were settled on land confiscated from Irish landowners. The Plantation of Ulster was the biggest and most successful of the Plantations of Ireland. Ulster was settled so to prevent further rebellion, as over the preceding century, it had proven to be the most resistant of Ireland's provinces to English invasion. The Scottish tenants were usually PresbyterianEdmund Curtis, p. 198. and the English were "persecuted" Dissenters.T. A. Jackson, p. 52.
This is my proposed introduction:
The Plantation of Ulster () was the organised colonisation (or plantation) of Ulster by British people. Private plantation by wealthy landowners began in 1606,source given below while official plantation controlled by the monarchy began in 1609. All land owned by Irish chieftains the Ó Neills and Ó Donnells (along with those of their supporters) were confiscated. This land comprised an estimated half a million acres (4,000 km²) in the counties Tyrconnell, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Coleraine and Armagh (wasteland, woodland and bogland were uncounted).T. A. Jackson, p. 51. Most of the counties Antrim and Down were privately colonised.source given below
The "British tenants",Edmund Curtis, p. 198. a term applied to the colonists,T.W Moody & F.X. Martin, p. 190. were mostly from Scotland and England. All were required to be English-speaking and Protestant.source given below The Scottish tenants were mostly PresbyterianEdmund Curtis, p. 198. and the English mostly Dissenters.T. A. Jackson, p. 52. The Plantation of Ulster was the biggest and most successful of the Plantations of Ireland. Ulster was settled so as to prevent further rebellion, as over the preceding century, it had proven to be the region most resistant to English control.
~Asarlaí 21:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsourced: Line 1, by British people. Line 2, Private plantation by wealthy landowners began in 1606, while official plantation controlled by the monarchy began in 1609. Line 4, Most of the counties Antrim and Down were privately colonised. Line 5, The official plantations. Line 6-7, were mostly from Scotland and England. All were required to be English-speaking and Protestant. Removed the phrase "persecuted." Stop adding unsourced text to referenced text, and removing sourced quotes. --Domer48'fenian' 07:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Line 1: all colonists came from the island of Britain, thus they were British. Line 2: supported here. Line 4/5: supported here. Line 6/7: supported here, here and here. Line 8: I'll re-add "persecuted". ~Asarlaí 16:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:SYN, it's not in the source. Now explain you edits and why they should be used. This section has been stable, so why change it. --Domer48'fenian' 17:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In case you didn't notice, I just gave you the links to the sources. ~Asarlaí 17:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

text: You seem to have mis-numbered some of your responses, so I'm unable to provide counter-arguments. I'll remove "Tyrone's Rebellion" as it does appear to be unsourced after all. I'll also re-add point 8 since I found a source for it further down the page. As for points 7 and 9, I can't see how anyone can argue against those edits. ~Asarlaí 01:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, correctly numbered. --Domer48'fenian' 07:44, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well your only argument seems to be that everything should follow the wording of the sources exactly. I disagree and Wikipedia disagrees. WP:NOR states: Summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis — it is good editing. Best practice is to write Wikipedia articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim. ~Asarlaí 16:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What your adding is not in the source at all, so WP:NOR.--Domer48'fenian' 17:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure that exact wording isn't used by the source. But according to Wikipedia, that's a good thing. ~Asarlaí 17:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  My recent edits 

message: If you have any objections please explain them here in detail.
This is the old introduction:
The Plantation of Ulster (Irish: Plandáil Uladh) was planned in 1598 with the process of colonisation taking place in 1609. All the estates of the O'Neills, the Earls of Tyrone, the O'Donnells of Tyrconnell and their chief supporters were confiscated. The estates comprised an estimated half a million acres (4,000 km²) of land (waste, woodland and bog were uncounted) in the counties of Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Coleraine (Londonderry) and Armagh in the northern Irish province of Ulster.T. A. Jackson, p. 51. 
'British’ tenants',Edmund Curtis, p. 198. a term applied to the Protestant English and Scottish planters,T.W Moody & F.X. Martin, p. 190. were settled on land confiscated from Irish landowners. The Plantation of Ulster was the biggest and most successful of the Plantations of Ireland. Ulster was settled so to prevent further rebellion, as over the preceding century, it had proven to be the most resistant of Ireland's provinces to English invasion. The Scottish tenants were usually PresbyterianEdmund Curtis, p. 198. and the English were "persecuted" Dissenters.T. A. Jackson, p. 52.
This is my proposed introduction:
The Plantation of Ulster () was the organised colonisation (or plantation) of Ulster by British people. Private plantation by wealthy landowners began in 1606,source given below while official plantation controlled by the monarchy began in 1609. All land owned by Irish chieftains the Ó Neills and Ó Donnells (along with those of their supporters) were confiscated. This land comprised an estimated half a million acres (4,000 km²) in the counties Tyrconnell, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Coleraine and Armagh (wasteland, woodland and bogland were uncounted).T. A. Jackson, p. 51. Most of the counties Antrim and Down were privately colonised.source given below
The "British tenants",Edmund Curtis, p. 198. a term applied to the colonists,T.W Moody & F.X. Martin, p. 190. were mostly from Scotland and England. All were required to be English-speaking and Protestant.source given below The Scottish tenants were mostly PresbyterianEdmund Curtis, p. 198. and the English mostly Dissenters.T. A. Jackson, p. 52. The Plantation of Ulster was the biggest and most successful of the Plantations of Ireland. Ulster was settled so as to prevent further rebellion, as over the preceding century, it had proven to be the region most resistant to English control.
~Asarlaí 21:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsourced: Line 1, by British people. Line 2, Private plantation by wealthy landowners began in 1606, while official plantation controlled by the monarchy began in 1609. Line 4, Most of the counties Antrim and Down were privately colonised. Line 5, The official plantations. Line 6-7, were mostly from Scotland and England. All were required to be English-speaking and Protestant. Removed the phrase "persecuted." Stop adding unsourced text to referenced text, and removing sourced quotes. --Domer48'fenian' 07:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Line 1: all colonists came from the island of Britain, thus they were British. Line 2: supported here. Line 4/5: supported here. Line 6/7: supported here, here and here. Line 8: I'll re-add "persecuted". ~Asarlaí 16:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:SYN, it's not in the source. Now explain you edits and why they should be used. This section has been stable, so why change it. --Domer48'fenian' 17:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In case you didn't notice, I just gave you the links to the sources. ~Asarlaí 17:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: If you have any objections please take things point-by-point and explain your objections in detail. 
#Nine Years War > Nine Years War (aka Tyrone's Rebellion)
#Gaelic > Gaelic – (this article covers the culture and language)
#Its complete ascendency however he suggests only dates only from the great wars of Elizabeth > However, he suggests its complete authority was only established after the Second Desmond Rebellion (1579-1583) and the aforementioned Tyrone Rebellion (1694-1603) – (simply making things specific, these were the only wars fought by Elizabeth in Ireland)
#efficacious > effective – (a more common word meaning the exact same thing)
#The inter-Gaelic and Anglo-Gaelic wars > The battles fought between Gaelic clans and between the Gaelic and English – (a simpler sentence meaning the exact same thing)
#At least half the settlers would be Scots > At least half the settlers would be English-speaking Scots – (some Scots were Gaelic speakers)
#land confiscated from convicted northern confederates > land confiscated from convicted Irish rebels – (the confederates didn't exist until the 1640s)
#Scottish settlers had been migrating naturally to Ulster for many centuries > (removed as it's unsourced)
#the native population were usually monoglot monoglot Gaelic speakers > the native population were usually monoglot Irish (Gaeilge) speakers – (removed repeated word)
~Asarlaí 21:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to have mis-numbered some of your responses, so I'm unable to provide counter-arguments. I'll remove "Tyrone's Rebellion" as it does appear to be unsourced after all. I'll also re-add point 8 since I found a source for it further down the page. As for points 7 and 9, I can't see how anyone can argue against those edits. ~Asarlaí 01:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, correctly numbered. --Domer48'fenian' 07:44, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well your only argument seems to be that everything should follow the wording of the sources exactly. I disagree and Wikipedia disagrees. WP:NOR states: Summarizing or rephrasing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis — it is good editing. Best practice is to write Wikipedia articles by taking material from different reliable sources on the topic and putting those claims on the page in your own words, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim. ~Asarlaí 16:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What your adding is not in the source at all, so WP:NOR.--Domer48'fenian' 17:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure that exact wording isn't used by the source. But according to Wikipedia, that's a good thing. ~Asarlaí 17:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Main body

message: It seems to me like this section is rather disorganized and should be re-arranged. I also don't think the large use of direct quotes here are that helpful. The Squicks (talk) 02:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: I'm really impressed with how this article has come along since I last took a look, but a statement in the lead concerns me:
"The Plantation of Ulster was the biggest and most successful of the Plantations of Ireland."
Successful for who? I presume we don't mean the indigenous Catholic Gaels? And how is biggest being defined- by amount of financial investment, by length it took, by amount of settlers? 
Not deleting or probing for citation, it just needs a bit more thought. :) --Jza84 |  Talk   20:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree as i would say the Plantation of Ulster was a failure, and i have a verifiable source which even states that it was a failure thanks to the 1641 Rebellion and the fact the landowners didn't evict many of the Irish Catholic natives as Protestant tenants were hard to find - and a lot of those that did were massacred or fled in 1641. All the counties that were planted in the Plantation of Ulster now have a Roman Catholic majority, no matter how narrow it is - whilst the remaining Protestant majority counties remain Counties Antrim and Down which were both privately settled BEFORE the Plantation of Ulster. Yeah really sounds like a success - if it had been there would probably be today Protestant majoritys in the counties involved in the Plantation. Mabuska (talk) 22:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And the point of reposting this here is? It was removed from the main article as it was irrelevant to a section about the planning of the Platation of Ulster. This information is written and more appropraite for the actual Hugh O'Neill article however i believe it already covers this and in a far more accurate, elaborated and sourced manner. So the point of trying to push it is pointless. Mabuska (talk) 10:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "and most successful..." 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: As I said the legacy section is complete nonsense and is trying to imply a natural separation by the way of migrants, when in reality NI is separated from the rest of Ireland politically because of British colonialism. The argument that down and Antrim where not part of the plantations but donegal was and is not part of the uk, doesn't mean the ulster plantations was not the cause. Down and Antrim may have not been part of the scheme but due to its geographical position was easier to colonize. The surname stuff is nonsense the population never intermixed, it was illegal for Catholics and protestant to marry. I'm tired of seeing British revisionism on every page about Ireland, I'm equally tired of seeing it go unchallenged.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.41.83 (talk) 08:21, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Venting with contrary opinion doesn't do anything; this isn't a forum.  We need reliable sources to cite.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The legacy part of the article is total British revisionism and needs to be rewritten 

message: Some books:
*  – Covers the Plantation of Ulster through American emigration.
*  – Newer edition than the one already cited in the article; may be updated.
*  – Newer edition than the one already cited in the article; may be updated.
See also Talk:Ulster Scots people#Additional sources, Talk:Scottish diaspora#Additional sources.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional sources