Talk:Military organization

message: I was under the impression a 'Corps' is not defined by a number, but as a Service Branch.  Examples of Corps may be the Artillery Corps, the Medical Corps, the Infantry Corps etc. While they are all similar in size, the term 'Corps' is not (To my knowledge) attributed to a certain number. For example, in the Australian Army there is the Royal Australian Psychologists Corps or something to the same effect, and I cannot imagine that being quite as large as the Infantry Corps.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.18.31 (talk) 04:27, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A corps is either a large formation, or an administrative grouping of troops with a common function.  In this article it is the former sense which applies. Greenshed (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of 'Corps'

message: The recent changes to the Hierarchy of air forces section are clearly an improvement both in terms of formatting and adding USAF information.  However the RAF element, at least, is misleading.  Given that the solution is not straightforward, I have not just gone and fixed it. The following points need some work:
*Historical and Current.  Do we want the list to reflect both historical and current conventions? Eg. Flying squadrons used to be commanded by squadron leaders; now they are commanded by wing commanders.
*Flying Units and Ground Units.  Do we want the list to give the conventions for flying units or ground units?  Eg flying squadrons are (now) commanded by wing commanders, ground-based squadrons are commanded by squadron leaders.
*Air Force.  Currently the Chief of the Air Staff is an Air Chief Marshal not an MRAF.  Other (former) air forces (eg RAF Far East Air Force) were commanded by air officers of lower rank.
*Command.  Not all commands have been or still are commanded by Air Chief Marshals.  RAF Personnel and Training Command is commanded by an air marshal.
*Group.  Excluding the early years of the RAF, Groups have typically been commanded by an air officer.
*RAF station.  RAF stations are ordinarily subordinate to groups.  Many, but not all, are commanded by group captains.
*Wings.  Administrative wings are commanded by wing commanders.  Expeditionary Air Wings are commanded by group captains.
*Squadrons.  See above.
*Flights.  Most flying branch flight lieutenants do not command a flight; they fly an aircraft.
*Sections.  Flying officers might command adminstrative flights, just fly an aircraft or act as an adjutant etc.  A SNCO would be in charge of a section.
Greenshed 01:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been wanting to fix the Hierarchy of air forces. Much of the USAF info is wrong, but I don't know the RAF part. It may be easier to separate it into two tables, since there don't seem to be direct equivalents at each level. Would you care to collaborate? Nathanm mn 20:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hierarchy of air forces 

message: It says a major is in charge of a company. As I understand it, a major generally was given the rank in the headquarters section of battalion level, you know an executive officer, supply officer, administrative officer, etc. but not the commanding officer. Should that be changed? --SurfingMaui540 20:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Army Aviation and MedEvac (medical air ambulance) companies are usually commanded by Majors, so I would recommend that it stay. KC 20:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Just wanted to add that in the U.S. Army, Majors at the battalion level are usually Executive Officers or S-3's (Operations Officers).  Other primary staff officers (S-1, S-2, S-4, etc.) at the battalion level are usually Captains or Lieutenants.  At the brigade level, it's basically the same thing except substitute Lieutenant Colonels and Majors. KC 21:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: British companies are commanded by majors.  American companies are commanded by captains.  138.162.128.52 (talk) 11:39, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Originally, British captains also commanded companies but this was changed in stages to majors during the 20th century. Greenshed (talk) 23:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Major

message: It seems to me that a major part of the general description of what is military is not covered - the Arms of Service/s.
These are listed under Corps in the British Army, bu they generally apply to all armies by subdividing the forces according to their specialisation. This is not only applied to the land forces but also naval and air services.
To illustrate, below are the historical British Army Corps of the Army Service (from Regiments.org site). They do not include Infantry and Cavalry which are on the regimental system, but in other Commonwealth countries Infantry and Cavalry are a Corps in their own right.
* Adjutant General's Corps  	1992-present
* Army Air Corps 	1942-1949
* Army Air Corps 	1957-present
* Army Apprentices College, Arborfield  [REME] 	
* Army Apprentices College, Chepstow [RE] 	1924-1994
* Army Apprentices College, Harrogate [RSigs] 	
* Army Cadet Force 	1942-present
* Army Catering Corps 	1941-1993
* Army Chaplains' Department 	1796-1919
* Army Commandos 	1940-1946
* Army Cyclist Corps 	1914-1919
* Army Dental Corps 	1921-1946
* Army Educational Corps 	1920-1946
* Army Hospital Conveyance Corps 	1854-1855
* Army Hospital Corps 	1855-1884
* Army Legal Corps  	1978-1992
* Army Medical Staff Corps 	1884-1898
* Army Nursing Service 	1881-1902
* Army Pay Department 	1878-1920
* Army Pay Corps 	1893-1920
* Army Physical Training Corps 	1860-present
* Army Postal Corps 	1882-1889
* Army School of Education  	
* Army Service Corps 	1869-1918
* Army Works Corps 	1855-1856?
* Camel Corps  	1884-1885
* Camel Corps 	1917-1919
* Commissariat Department 
* Corps of Army Schoolmasters  	 1846-1920
* Corps of Military Accountants 	1919-1925
* Corps of Army Music 	1994-present
* Corps of Pioneers 	1795-1800
* The Corps of Riflemen 	1800-1802
* Corps of Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers  	1942-present
* Corps of Royal Engineers  	1716-present
* Corps of Royal Military Artificers 	1788-1812
* Corps of Royal Military Police  	1855-1992
* Corps of Royal Sappers and Miners 	1812-1856
* Field Telegraph Corps  	1882-1889
* Forage Corps  	1915-1919?
* General Service Corps  	
* Gurkha Army Service Corps  	 
* Imperial Camel Corps  	1917-1919
* Imperial Yeomanry 	1899-1902
* Intelligence Corps   	1914-present
* Labour Corps  	1915-1920
* Land Transport Corps  	1855-1860
* The Light Infantry  	1968-2007
* Machine Gun Corps  	1915-1922
* Military Provost Staff Corps   	1901-1992
* Mobile Defence Corps 	1955-1959
* The Parachute Corps  	1940-1942
* The Parachute Corps 	1967-1968
* Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps  	1949-present
* Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps 	1917-1919
* Reconnaissance Corps    	1940-1946
* Royal Armoured Corps  	1939-present
* Royal Army Chaplains Department  	1919-present
* Royal Army Dental Corps 	1946-present
* Royal Army Educational Corps 	1946-1992
* Royal Army Medical Corps  	1898-present
* Royal Army Ordnance Corps 	1918-1993
* Royal Army Pay Corps 	1920-1992
* Royal Army Service Corps   	1918-1965
* Royal Army Veterinary Corps 	1796-present
* Royal Artillery 	1716-present
* Royal Corps of Signals   	1920-present
* Royal Corps of Transport 	1965-1993
* Royal Defence Corps 	1916-1936
* Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers   	 1942-present
* Royal Engineers 	1716-present
* Royal Field Artillery 	1899-1924
* Royal Flying Corps   	1912-1918
* Royal Garrison Artillery  	1899-1924
* Royal Horse Artillery  	1793-present
* Royal Logistic Corps   	1993-present
* Royal Marine Artillery 	1804-1923
* Royal Marine Light Infantry 	1855-1923
* Royal Marines 	1664-present
* Royal Military Artificers  	1787-1812
* Royal Military Police 	1946-1992
* Royal Military School of Music 	
* Royal Observer Corps     	
* Royal Pioneer Corps 	1939-1992
* Royal Regiment of Artillery  	1716-present
* Royal Signals  	1920-present
* Royal Staff Corps 	1800-1837
* Royal Tank Corps  	1923-1939
* Royal Waggon Train  	1794-1833
* The Royal Yeomanry   	1967-present
* Small Arms School Corps  	1854-present
* Staff Corps of Cavalry  	1810-1817
* The Tank Corps  	1917-1923
* Women's Army Auxiliary Corps  	1917-1919
* Women's Forage Corps 	1915-?
--Mrg3105 08:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably good to have this, but this isn't the place IMHO -- I recommend a separate article.  Keep in the mind that these will vary from country to country, so it will get large quickly.  138.162.128.53 (talk) 11:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is plenty of detail at Structure of the British Army.  Greenshed (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arms of Service (corps) 

message: Can someone explain the usage of numbers in unit names (e.g. 3rd Infantry, 82nd Airborne, etc)? Like, why are numbers assigned seem to be randomly chosen (101st Airborne implies there were 100 units before it)?
Also, how and why did this tradition of naming came about? (maybe add a section on the history of it) And explain rules for naming, e.g., I know Corps level units use roman numerals. Jigen III (talk) 13:07, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 82nd was original 82nd Infantry.--Conor Fallon (talk) 03:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The unit names indicate it's formation.  Like the 3rd infantry division would be the 3rd infantry division to be organized and authorized by the government. 64.17.88.166 (talk) 12:40, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers in Unit Names 

message: It's easiest to read my post if you click on the edit button; because, I can't figure out how to make Wikipedia format my charts correctly.
Perhaps this isn't in the mode of this article; but, it needs to be somewhere and it isn't anywhere.  I don't have the information I'm seeking, I'm hoping someone can fill it in.  What happens in the Navy beneath the Captain/Commander level?  Surely Lieutenant Commanders, or some Lieutenants on smaller vessels, are in command of something; and, I believe that something is the Department.  I believe this next bit would very from department to department (which raises the question: what departments are typical on what types of vessels?); but, how does the department then break down?  Here's a theory I worked up trying to figure this out using the scant resources available (the (C) stands for Capital Ship, the (S) for smaller vessel):
Navy Rank/Duty-
	Captain- Captain (C)-Flotilla Admiral (S)
	Commander- Assistant Captain (C)-Captain (S)
	Lieutenant Commander- Department Head (C)-Assistant Captain (S)
	Lieutenant- Assistant Department Head (C)-Department Head (S)
		or None (Department Skilled Senior Commissioned Officer) (C)
	Ensign/Sub-Lieutenant/Lieutenant Junior Grade- Department Lead Supervisor(C)-Assistant Department Head (S)
		or Department Midshipman Trainer (C/S)
		or None (Department Skilled Junior Commissioned Officer) (C)-(Department Skilled Commissioned Officer) (S)
	Midshipman- None (Department Ensign/Sub-Lieutenant/Lieutenant Junior Grade Trainee) (C/S)
	Chief Warrant Officer- Assistant Department Head Supervising Warrant Officers and Department Lead Supervisor and Department Skilled Senior Non-Commissioned Officer (C/S)
	Warrant Officer- Department Supervisor and Department Skilled Junior Non-Commissioned Officer (C/S)
	Chief Petty Officer- Department Lead Supervisor (C/S)
	Petty Officer- Department Supervisor (C/S)
		or Department Seaman Second or Third Rate Trainer (C/S)
	Seaman First Rate- None (Department Crewman)
	Seaman Second or Third Rate- None (Seaman First Rate Trainee)
Of course, this is probably wrong, perhaps even gibberish; but, if the Army organizational chart goes all the way down to the command of a Corporal (Fire team), then why shouldn't the Navy organizational chart go all the way down to the command of a Petty Officer, whatever it is; and, I know from another article that Petty Officers do have supervisory responsibilities, and therefore something of a command.  Finally, to really flesh it out with numbers, we'd really need to break it down by department, since each department would have a different number of crew operating in a different way depending on the function of the department and the size of the vessel.  By way of example, here's a chart I drew up as I attempted to assign Naval ranks to commercial ship job titles (the articles on this are extremely informative, would there were comparable articles for their military counterparts!):
Captain/Ship's Master (Administration/Command)-Captain (C)-Commander (S) 1
Chief/First Officer/Mate (Assistant Captain/Safety/Watch)-Commander (C)-Lieutenant Commander (S) 1
Department Head (Department Manager)-Lieutenant Commander (C)-Lieutenant (S)
	Deck Department-Second Officer/Mate (Safety/Watch) 1
	Engineering Department-Chief Engineer (Engine/Machine/Electrical Maintenance)
	Stewards Department- Purser (Invoicing/Requisitions)
Additional Personnel by Department-
Deck Department-
	Navigator (Navigation/Watch)-Lieutenant (C)-Ensign (S) 1
	Third Officer/Mate (Safety/Watch)-Lieutenant (C)-Ensign (S) 1-2
	Deck Cadet (Third Mate Trainee)- Midshipman (C/S) 0-2
	Boatswain (Assistant Manager/Maintenance)- Chief Warrant Officer (C/S) 0-1
	Carpenter (Carpentry)- Warrant Officer (C/S) 0-1
	Able Seaman (Supervisor/Watch/Day Worker)- Chief Petty Officer or Petty Officer (C/S) 2-6
	Ordinary Seaman (Day Worker)- Seaman First Rate (C/S) 0-2
Engineering Department-
	Second Engineer (Assistant Chief Engineer/Refrigeration/Main Engines/Day Shift Lead)- Lieutenant (C)-Ensign (S)
	Third Engineer (Auxiliary Engines/Fuel/Boilers)-Ensign (C/S)
	Fourth Engineer (Electrical/Lube/Sewage/Waste Water/Life Boats/Watch)- Ensign (C/S)
	Engineering Cadet (Fourth Engineer Trainee)- Midshipman (C/S)
	Qualified Member of the Engineering Department (Repair/Maintain Machines/Equipment)- Chief Warrant Officer or Warrant Officer (C/S)
	Pumpman (Liquid Cargo Operations)- Warrant Officer (C/S)
	Oiler (Lubrication/Assistant Fourth Engineer)- Chief Petty Officer or Petty Officer (C/S)
	Wiper (Cleaning/Gofer)- Seaman First Rate (C/S)
Stewards Department-
	Chief Steward (Assistant Purser/Baker)- Lieutenant (C)-Ensign (S)
	Chief Cook (Galley Manager/Cook)- Ensign (C/S)
	Stewards Assistant (Clerk/Cook/Waitstaff/Housekeeper)- Seaman First Rate (C/S)
Again this may be gibberish.  On a commercial ship the Deck Department Head is the First Mate, and the Second Mate is responsible for navigation; but, on Naval vessels I believe the First Mate is the XO, and therefore is too busy to be the Deck Department Head as well; so, I imagine that job would then fall to the Second Mate, making him too busy for all of his responsibilities; so, I took navigation from him and created the job Navigator.  Even most commercial ships don't run with a Purser any more; I very much doubt Naval vessels would; and, in this case the Chief Steward takes his place.  The numbers next to the Deck Department Personnel are the numbers of that job type that a commercial ship would expect to carry under normal circumstances.  I'm sure on a Navy vessel these numbers would be quite different.  I've even read about the Deck Departments of Aircraft Carriers being so large that they are broken down into Divisions, but that's all the information I could find on that.  I have no numbers for Engineering or Stewards; because, the articles didn't provide any.  I suppose it must vary from engine to engine or based on crew size, respectively; but, we should be able to work up estimates.  What of other departments?  Who handles artillery, boarding actions, security, flight decks, reactors, computers?  How are these and other departments, such as medical, structured?  I read that Deck Departments on Submarines are quite small, seeing as they don't have much of a deck; but then, is a different department in charge of navigation and safety?
Does anyone know any of the answers to any of these questions?  Many of the answers I know have a place in this article; and, if there are any that don't, then a new article needs to be made to accommodate them; because, at present the whole of the 'Verse seems to be bone dry as to references for this material.  I don't have any of this data, despite my efforts to discover it.  I only have the questions.
At least, as I said, the Army chart makes it all the way down to Corporal; so, the Navy chart should go all the way down to Petty Officer.  If anyone has this information, could you be persuaded to enlighten the masses?
Finnbjorn (talk) 12:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Navy stops short 

message: Just curious:  Does anyone know why the Air Force gets less than one bird in the sky for every twenty personnel? (Wing: 1,000-5,000 personnel, 48-100 aircraft= personnel to aircraft ratio 21-50:1)  I'm sorry; but, with so few active airborne units, perhaps their name should be changed to the 95-98%-Of-Us-Sit-On-Our-Butts-While-Better-Men-Go-Do-The-Fighting Force.  I'm gonna bring this up the next time I write my congressmen.  I smell a whole lot 'o bacon!
Finnbjorn (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC
- Aircrew, engineers etc.
Who are you?  Insufficient explanation.  I keep running it over and over in my head; and, the worst I can come up with, being a force composed entirely of gun boats, is still three times better.  The entire concept of an Air Force as being separate from the Army or Navy seems like a waste anyway; but then to get less than one bird in the air for every twenty personnel:  I know we're not really discussing theory here; but it seems to me that some restructuring might be in order.
Finnbjorn (talk) 16:31, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Air Force only 4% combat effective? 

message: Look: Stop editing this page with out discussing it here first.  To address your rhetorical question: while I can't speak to the Incan myths, the fictional stories "the Chronicles of Narnia" and "the Lord of the Rings" along with the mythical epic Ragnarok do not mention any battle formations.  I told you before that you have to be careful about how you dismiss myths.  There are still people in the world for whom the Mahabharata is a sacred text, just like the Bible.  They are called Hindus.  There are also still people in the world for whom the Eddas and the Sagas and Ragnarok are sacred texts, and I am one of them, and your suggestion that my holy books have the same value as history and literature as modern works of fiction is offensive, misguided and ignorant.  I was merely fighting you until you would agree to build consensus on the talk page first.  You are right in thinking that the Mahabharata doesn't really belong in this article; but, not for any "reason" you have suggested.  Now, however, I am going to fight you because you are ignorant, dismissive and rude, you have offended me with your religious intolerance; and so, I have to tell you: the Mahabharata is here to stay!
Finnbjorn (talk) 20:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  By78, I warned you about this. 

message: The Italian Republic has four "arme" (armed services): Army, Navy, Air Force and Military Police (Carabinieri). The financial police isn't an armed force. In fact, the "guardia di finanza" is under the control of the Ministry of the economy and finance, not under the Defence.--Francescov1988 (talk) 21:23, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Italian Armed Services

message: There is no such a thing as an Ad Hoc structure. NO military command has invented the wheel, NOR reinvented the wheel, all structures having definite biological and equipment reasons for being so, AND FALLING within those structrures.
What you call ad hoc, is the reverse of a damned UK regiment on horseback against machine gun installations, now THAT, is
definitely ad HOGG, that regiment being mowed down in seconds. Apparently you want all and everyone to cater to that type and style of living standard and warfair.
Is that the new ´asperger centurions´ that has been talked about in the last three decades or so, USofA twitter and pedia´s made?
Have some logic, for crying out loud, your lack of high school graduation and a FULL D minus becomes quite clearly visible.
Link to IQ, and the form that IQ these days is a midmode of a LOWERED standard, there being quite a few more in that SD=1 then elsewhere.
PS: I still think the board of wiki pedia is full of themselves, ANY board or executives having to fully acknowledge that IF you do not get pissed now and then due foolishness, the whole of civilization would still be in the ICED age without a clue about Flint and definitely no clue about internet.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.209.36.69 (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ad Hoc structures. 

message: Is it missing, or do some of you not know that Australia has a military?
I attempted to do a search on the wiki for "Australian Defence Force" and it is not there.
Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rek7 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's article is over here, under the exact title "Australian Defence Force". — Nohomers48 (talk • contribs) 06:54, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is the Australian Defence Force on this wiki?

message: Questions: Is there a source for that chart? I believe it represents modern naval fleets more accurately than historical naval fleets. (Reason: Looking to edit naval fleet page)Tesseractcubed (talk) 07:25, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naval Organization: Chart 

message: As subunit (military) redirects here, editors watching this discussion may want to comment in that other one I just linked. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:39, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:Sub-subunit#Move_to_subunit_(military)]] 

message: Something like national army > army corps > division > regiment or brigade > battalion > platoon, with a very general order of magnitude re number of soldiers in each (dozens, hundreds, 10³, 10⁴...). Basics, for non-specialists. I honestly don't know my way around these terms, relativisation (each state or alliance has its own system & terminology) is understandable, but not helpful: first offer a "classical" European organisational scheme, and only then go into current pecularities. Arminden (talk) 10:06, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I found it far below under "Modern hierarchy" and made this section immediately visible in lead. Arminden (talk) 10:39, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  I miss overview scheme with terminology, number of soldiers/unit