Talk:Bobby Fischer/Archive 3

message: Fischer's play in game 4 of the Taimanov match was masterful & influenced a generation; one could say the same of thirty or forty other Fischer games.  For other famous Fischer endings, see Game 1 of Larsen 1971 match, Game 7 of Petrosian 1971 match, Games 10 and 13 of Spassky 1972 match (off the top of my head).  Kasparov cites the influence of Fischer's play in the pure B v. N ending (see Spassky's win against Fischer at 2nd Piat Cup 1967, Fischer's win against Unzicker, Siegen 1970).  I am sure the editor of this section is aware of how Fischer horribly botched (by his high standards) the win in the 2nd game of the Taimanov match, only winning because of Taimanov's counter-blunder.  Billbrock 23:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  I put this over here because the Fischer's endgame is almost certainly going to be deleted.  (I think it should be deleted, I put it up for AfD.)  But I did find one reference in English to the endgame of R+B vs. R+N (plus pawns) being called the "Fischer endgame" (the reference is in the article).  On the other hand, I found quite a few references where the endgame was discussed, but "Fischer endgame" was not mentioned where you might expect it to be: the online article by Muller, the Oxford Companion, Soltis, Kasparov, Shereshevsky, Hansen, and now the new book by Silman.  So do you think it should be taken out alltogether?  Bubba73 (talk), 01:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It belongs in the "Notable chess games" section. Soon someone will be arguing that Fischer contributed to the theory of positions with Q, 2 B's, N's,& R's, and 8 pawns.  Neither in the AfD nor in this article is Fischer's contribution to theory articulated. Billbrock 14:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Or maybe Fischer's other endgame when Fischer shows that R & N are stronger than R & B.  (Cf. game 7 of Petrosian match.)  Here's a similarity between Fischer, Karpov, & Kramnik: none of them are doctrinaire about the superiority of Bishop to Knight.  (Cf. "Even a bad Bishop is better than a Knight," per Kasparov.)  Billbrock 14:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, when you see a position won by a world champion class player against a much weaker player, you wonder if it was a win because of the position or because the better player out played the weaker one. Bubba73 (talk), 07:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  OK, I had overlooked that section.  I made the move.  Bubba73 (talk), 14:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  PS- it isn't OR because it is in two references: FCE and the Russian article.  Bubba73 (talk), 01:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've added a little to help justify the section.  Bubba73 (talk), 01:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Regarding Kasparov's comment that a bad bishop being better than a knight, in Damjanovic-Fischer, 1970, White had a bad bishop, black won with the knight.  Bubba73 (talk), 21:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:NOR]] and [[Fischer's endgame]] 

message: The article says that USCF membership "peaked in 1974".  It surpassed that mark in 1992.  Should that be mentioned?  Bubba73 (talk), 03:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  USCF membership 

message: Long overdue.  Billbrock 07:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanks for adding more on Fischer's achievements in chess! 

message: Fischer's friend and childhood mentor, former U.S. Champion Arnold Denker, was in contact with the reclusive Fischer during the match negotiations. Denker, writing with his co-author, the respected chess journalist Larry Parr, in the book The Bobby Fischer I Knew And Other Stories (Hypermodern Press 1995), explained that Fischer knew he hadn't been playing for three years, and hence he wanted a long match to be able to play himself into shape.
Karpov, writing nearly 20 years later in his autobiography Karpov on Karpov (Atheneum 1991), expressed profound regret that the match did not take place. He views the cancelled match as the most disappointing episode in his own life, and stated that the lack of the opportunity to challenge Fischer held back his own chess development from what he might have achieved. Karpov, who had prepared hard for several months in anticipation, became World Champion by default in April, 1975, and went on to dominate chess in Fischer's absence for the next decade. Karpov has a high regard for Fischer's chess, and met with Fischer several times after 1975. Karpov wrote that the two champions got along well on a personal level, as they tried to reach agreement to play the match, without success.
Garry Kasparov, who succeeded Karpov as World Champion in 1985 and dominated top-flight chess for nearly 20 years, has written a five-volume series of books My Great Predecessors on the great champions who came before him. He writes that Karpov would have had a good chance against Fischer in 1975.
These three paragraphs should be condensed into one.  Billbrock 02:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brevity, focus, proportionality 

message: O come on guys, what's up with that picture? Are you trying to make him/this article look bad? Can't a younger one be uploaded, as that one is even hard to look at.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.76.70 (talk) 02:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: :Image:Bobby-fischer-early.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Bobby-fischer-early.jpg 

message: :Image:TorturedinPasadena.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:TorturedinPasadena.jpg 

message: I think the main photo of Fischer should be a more typical one.  Bubba73 (talk), 01:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. -Etafly 11:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I searched for a photo that I was sure was OK copyright wise, but I couldn't find one.  There are many articles about people that need photos.  There ought to be a way to put up a photo of a famous (living) person without having copyright problems.  Bubba73 (talk), 13:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Couldnt agree more. We need a better picture. Before I posted the photo required template, I looked quite hard for a public domain photo, also in vain. I found a lot of very suitable photos, but none of them had the copyrights owner on it (so we can't even ask permission). If someone has a good photo with knowledge of the copyright owner this might be something we can do. Voorlandt 17:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe we can claim fair use on one of the better suited photos. -Etafly 22:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  I found these on Google Images:
*
*
*
*
* 
*.  The last one used to be on the article. Bubba73 (talk), 23:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The current picture is better (Fischer in 2005), but I think it would be best to have a picture of him in his adult playing days, about 1968-1972.  Bubba73 (talk), 02:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: Is a call for the destruction of the United States really anti-Americanism?  Some might deem it tough love.  Billbrock 00:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I'd delete "anti-imperialism". His anti-Americanism and anti-semitism are obvious enough, but how is he anti-imperialist? Peter Ballard 01:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Anti-imperialism" was added by one of the fans of Fischer's ideology.  I was never crazy about it, but I was fighting larger edit battles, and thought it did partly capture his early anti-communist stance.  Doesn't quite do justice to his current anti-Icelandic fervor (see the Iceland-UBS conspiracy stuff on fischer.jp), does it?  Billbrock 03:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Would calling for the destruction of, say, Canada, be anti-Canadianism, or would it be tough love? Algabal 06:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I concur. Dlabtot 04:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Left-wing intellectual concurs, and edited accordingly.  It should be noted that, decades earlier, RJF was fervently anti-Soviet.  But that doesn't need to be in the lede, and "anti-imperialistic" is indeed misleading.  Billbrock 14:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged anti-Americanism 

message: I think the Gothic chess rumors should be removed from the Fischer article.  Are there any good sources confirming any of this?  Link 38. http://www.chessclub.com/chessfm is worthless as it merely links to the front page -- nothing can be confirmed by it.  The rest are all links to a site associated with the Gothic Chess patent owner, so they are not independent.  Ed Trice and partners are engaged in multiple edit wars right now and will certainly revert removal of the Gothic Chess stuff here as has happened at least twice before, so I wanted to see what other editors think.  Even if the rumors have some validity, it isn't clear to me that they are notable.  I don't know anyone who doesn't have a financial interest in Gothic Chess who cares about this.  If anyone did, I would expect that third party sources confirming it could be found.  Quale 00:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The references stopped me deleting it before, but I hadn't noticed that the references were not indepedent. Delete the entire paragraph, including references 35-37, which are radio interviews but the article says nothing about the contents of the interviews. Peter Ballard 01:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Gothic chess]] rumors 

message: I don't think I agree with "(chess writer - not notable enough to put in lead)"... isn't Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess one of the best selling chess books ever? Way back when that's where I learned what a pin was and how to put together combinations and all the basics... I'm just one of millions... Dlabtot 03:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was reacting to an editor who was putting "He was/is also a chess writer" in the lead section of just about every chess player. The truth is most chess players write books, but it is (generally) not their books they are famous for. So putting "He was/is also a chess writer" in the lead section, should be reserved for those who are noted for their chess books, such as Aron Nimzovitch. Perhaps Fischer falls into that category too. I am willing to go with the consensus there. But do we then also put in the lead that he is noted as the inventor of the Fischer Clock and of Chess960? Perhaps we do. Peter Ballard 04:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with its removal from the lead.  Although My 60 Memorable Games is an all-time classic, Fischer isn't primarily known as a chess author.  In fact, I would say that even Max Euwe has a better claim to being notable in that area than does Fischer.  I also would only mention chess writing in the lead for people well-known for it.  Some World Champion examples off the top of my head: this would be yes for Euwe and Alekhine, no for Capablanca, Tal, Fischer, and Kasparov.  Also yes for a number of people never World Champions but well-known for their chess writing, for example Tarrasch, Nimzovitch, Reti, Tartakover, Pachman, Reinfeld, Horowitz, Robert Byrne, and John L. Watson.  The whole "chess writer" thing has to be handled carefully as as Peter notes nearly every prominent chess player has written something about chess.  Formulaic application of this category can lead to absurd results.  For instance, Paul Morphy could be considered a "chess writer" for the small number of months he co-edited The Chess Monthly but this would be perverse.  Morphy did almost no work on the magazine and in fact wrote very little on chess at all.  Quale 05:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chess writer 

message: Should the American flag be removed, and replaced with Iceland?  Or perhaps both flags.  He did renounce his citizenship.  He cannot return to the USA without being arrested.  Like it or not he is best described as a former American.  This is the best edit of the info box I could come up with.
Geo8rge 16:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Country 

message: Can someone perhaps stick in a photo of King Bobby on his Wikipedia page? (or instruct me how i can do this)- it's quite a big omission for such a notable figure.
Thanks
cogsyp
Cogsyp 11:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bobby Fischer 

message: Since these discussion pages tend to only be read from the very bottom, I'll place this on here and let others decide if this sourced video material should appear anywhere in the article. I was not the interviewer for this so direct questions to the YouTube account who uploaded it and not myself.
ChessHistorian 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, Quale, you are wrong. The entire subject was about Bobby Fischer in Iceland, and how he is difficult to reach. Trice was the last American to have met and spoken with Fischer in person, and that undertaking was tremendous.
ChessHistorian 20:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense.  The video includes absolutely nothing directly attributable to Fischer.  The video is an interview with Ed Trice, not Bobby Fischer, so if it belongs anywhere, it's at Ed Trice.  No interesting claims in the video appear to have been confirmed by anyone other than Trice.  Quale 21:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fischer YouTube Video 

message: This blog item is of interest, but doesn't yet merit inclusion in the article, IMO.  Billbrock (talk) 02:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a cautious mention would be appropriate. Mig Greengard is a reputable chess journalist so his blog is a WP:Reliable Source. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps.  Mig discusses the poor sourcing of the various stories in print media; the verifiable stuff seems invasive of RJF's privacy.  Billbrock (talk) 07:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter's edit seems reasonable till we know more.  Billbrock (talk) 02:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is also on Susan Polgar's blog http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/, and she links to a Spanish article.  Bubba73 (talk), 02:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  A translation of the Spanish article gives few detils: "He is bad, the problem he is serious". Bubba73 (talk), 02:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RJF's health 

message: I know this topic has been discussed in depth, particularly in the talk archives, but what is the exact evidence for the Jewish heritage of Fischer's mother? There are, from what I can tell, three sources in the main article. The first is merely an AP article that states it with no support. The second is Bobby Fischer's own declaration in a 1962 interview. The third is just a rehash of the second (so really not an independent source and should be deleted in my view). Given the fact that he later denied being Jewish (confirmed by the Encyclopedia Judaica), it seems that Fischer's own word on this matter is unreliable, and sources 2 and 3 are therefore also unreliable. Therefore the only evidence we have confirming his Jewish heritage is an unsourced AP article. Wouldn't the reply from EJ be considered stronger evidence? It appears that Fischer's Jewish heritage is far from certain, and, if not completely stricken from the article, should at least be accompanied by, "a fact that Fischer himself now vigorously denies." Does any anyone have real, independent, evidence that Fischer's mom is Jewish?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tubbyty (talk • contribs) 17:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regina Wender's father, Jacob, was born in Lodz & was a dress cutter by trade: not exactly indices of Irish ancestry.  http://www.wargs.com/other/fischer.html  One might check the Ellis Island database for 1913-1914.  Might also be worth looking at this book on the St. Louis Jewish community circa WWI: there might well be references to Jacob Wender in the St. Louis Yiddish press.  RW lived a fascinating life: it would be interesting to know more.  Billbrock (talk) 09:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a Jacob Wender who arrived on Ellis Island on August 5, 1913, on the S.S. Zeeland.  Under "Race or People" on the ship's manifest, we find "Hebrew."  His most recent permanent residence was Zürich; we know that Regina was born in Switzerland some months earlier.  Billbrock (talk) 00:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Doesn't belong in the article: WP:NOR.  Numerous verifiable sources already exist to document RJF's (matrilineal & probably patrilineal) Jewish ancestry.  I don't believe that any editor of this article has ever claimed that RJF or the adult RWF ever practiced Judaism.  Billbrock (talk) 01:08, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I've seen lots of chess history books which document Fischer's Jewish heritage. I'll get some references in the next day or 2. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: "According to Talmudic law the religion of a child is determined by the faith of the mother.  Regina was born Jewish, though she was not particularly devout.  Bobby, therefore, was considered a Jew." -- Frank Brady (1973), Profile of a Prodigy, p. 2.  As Peter said, there are many other reliable sources.  Quale (talk) 03:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a religious definition of Jewishness.  Other Jews may have viewed RWF and RJF this way, but I'm not sure what their self-perception was.  The ethnic definition is what I had in mind; of course not without relevance to the history of the 20th century.  Billbrock (talk) 17:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: The act of collating various verifiable sources into a narrative is indeed original research: it's one of things historians, scientists etc. do.  Billbrock (talk) 17:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you've missed the point Billbrock. The reasoning/collating is not Quale's but Frank Brady's. It is not WP:OR to cite a WP:RS like Frank Brady. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Billbrock was actually referring to TubbyTy's comment about researching U.S. Census data rather than the Brady quote I supplied.  It's a point about what Wikipedia considers original research that I think some people find tricky.  If I research U.S. Census data and put my conclusions into an article, that's OR -- I'm interpreting a primary source and that's not allowed.  If a WP:RS does the same interpretation Wikipedia can use it.  Similarly, it seems to me that if I have Fritz analyze a position and I put that evaluation into an article it's OR, but if a chess writer does the same and publishes the result we could use it. Quale (talk) 02:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

text: It is good to examine sources with a critical eye.  Frank Brady personally knew Bobby and Regina Fischer from the time that Fischer was a young teenager due to Brady's work in American chess.  In fact he first encountered Fischer in January 1956 (p. 10) when Fischer was 12 years old.  Later in the 1950s he got to know them both quite well as Regina frequently approached him looking for funding to support Bobby's chess career.  Most of the book recounts events that he either witnessed personally or was contemporaneously involved in in his role as editor of Chess Life and through his other work with the USCF and other U.S. chess organizations.  Brady was actually someone who could be considered one of Bobby's "friends" in the 1960s, to the extent that Fischer had friends.  Brady examined proofs of My 60 Memorable Games, for instance.  David Edmonds & John Eidinow (both journalists who worked for the BBC), Bobby Fischer Goes to War, p. 306: "Given Bobby's anti-Semitic and anticommunist obsessions, there is a poignant irony to the fact that his parents were communist sympathizers and that he is ethnically Jewish on both sides of his parentage."  The appendix to the book goes into detail about the evidence that Paul Nemenyi was Bobby's biological father.  The Nemenyi article needs updating improve its discussion of this and to provide proper cites.  Quale (talk) 06:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evidence for Fischer's Jewish Heritage? 

message: Do these quotations (all unsourced) belong in the article or in Wikiquote?  I tend to think the latter.  Billbrock (talk) 21:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One or two could go here, but with this many, I think Wikiwuote would be better.  Bubba73 (talk), 22:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If any are in the article there should only be a few, and they should be well sourced. Without a source, I say delete. Peter Ballard (talk) 22:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done for now. Billbrock (talk) 11:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RJF quotations 

message: Why can't we have a photo of Fischer as we was in his prime playing days, about age 27-29 (1970-72)?  They have been put up and taken down.  Surely there must be a photo available that doesn't violate copyrights.  Bubba73 (talk), 03:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think fair use could be claimed for this famous copyrighted photo.  Billbrock (talk) 19:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like it, but it has a problem with #8 of Wikipedia:Fair use#unacceptable images.  "A magazine cover, to illustrate the article on the person whose photograph is on the cover. However, if the cover itself is the subject of sourced discussion in the article, and if the cover does not have its own article, it may be appropriate." Bubba73 (talk), 20:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm.  Probably USCF owns rights to the October? 1972 cover photo of Chess Life & Review (Fischer in sweater, Icelandic countryside) & would grant permission.  They also have an archive of photos of RJF in action.  Billbrock (talk) 20:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That might be a good source.  Surely they would have a photo they would release (I hope). I wich that photos on Google would give their copyright status.  Bubba73 (talk), 21:19, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've written to them asking if they have one we could use.  Bubba73 (talk), 21:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They replied, and said that they didn't have one that was free of copyright restrictions.  Bubba73 (talk), 05:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo, again 

message: It has been said according to the cnn homepage that bobby fischer is dead... www.cnn.com c_falco 11:46 GMT
In the Marca website it says he died in Iceland at 11:23 GMT.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.36.131.144 (talk) 11:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm... maybe, but I don't know if that fact deserves a place in the article. Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't.  Tempshill (talk) 17:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death 

message: Someone should really add some of Fischer's best games to this article, all the other World Champions have some.   
   
RIP Bobby  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 11:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: For mine: the Game of the Century against D. Byrne, the "unexpected resignation" by R.Byrne, and the positional crush of Petrosian in game 7 of their match. RIP Bobby indeed. I'd hoped he'd find sanity and happiness. :( :( Peter Ballard (talk) 11:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was there about a year ago, but someone removed it after the section bloated greatly. I reverted the original slim version of mine.--Ioannes Pragensis (talk) 14:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Games 

message: Fischer did not consider himself Jewish and his father was not Jewish as well. I do not consider it appropriate to put the tag "Jewsish Chess Players" on his article. For if Judaism is a religion, Fischer did definitely not belong to it. After all, what do you do with a Jew who becomes, say, a Christian or a Muslim? Still "Jewish etc."? Or what if someone has a Jewish mother and a muslim father? No, my friends, that's not the way to go. If someone is Jewish, he must CONSIDER himself jewish, but Fischer wasn't even circumcised.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.181.93 (talk) 12:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, no editor of this article has ever claimed that RJF or RWF practiced Judaism.  The reference is to ethnicity: cf. Jean-Marie_Cardinal_Lustiger or Disraeli.  Billbrock (talk) 12:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually recent research has found that Fischer's father was Jewish  (the man listed on his birth certificate was not his true father), so he's 100% ethnically Jewish, for what it's worth.Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

text: According to Jewish law, a person is a Jew if their mother is a Jew.  The father's ethnicity is irrelevant to this determination.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.201.38 (talk) 13:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category: Jewish Chess Players 

message: Bobby Fischer is Dead. He died in his home in Iceland. Here is an Icelandic web coverage of it
http://mbl.is/mm/frettir/innlent/2008/01/18/bobby_fischer_latinn/  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.148.70.130 (talk) 13:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death 

message: It is highly improper, inconsiderate and rude for editors to continue to work over an "inuse" tag, which is placed in order to allow an edit to be completed. There is no justification for removing it and not allow other editors time to complete the work that is being done. Wildhartlivie (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's practical to have that tag up there just now as the article is so high-profile-- there is so much misinformation and vandalism being added by anon ips that we need to revert constantly. It's not really compatible with the "recent death" tag.Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps that is what the temporary protection request is all about. Wildhartlivie (talk) 15:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An "inuse" tag is highly inappropriate for articles that are in-the-news and that are linked from the front page like this, actually.  Do you expect the world to wait patiently for you to complete your edit?  Tempshill (talk) 16:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  In use tag 

message: If you become a naturalised Icelandic citizen in the ordinary way, you are required to take an Icelandic name. Did Fischer ever do so, since his citizenship was a specific act of the Althing which didn't mention a new name? Marnanel (talk) 16:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll note that he received his citizenship under somewhat unusual circumstances, so normal procedures may not have applied. I'm interested to see the answer, though I can't find a reference for it. UltraExactZZ  Claims ~ Evidence  16:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Those laws were abolished before Fischer became a citizen. Haukur (talk) 16:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, thank you. Could you perhaps when you get a moment write something about that on Icelandic name? Marnanel (talk) 16:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icelandic name 

message: The article doesn't mention the child Fischer had during his years in the Philippines. Maybe it should? For some reason I thought it was a daughter, but Ljubojevic mentions a son here. Anybody know more? Skarioffszky (talk) 20:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fischer's child 

message: "Fischer, whose mother and probable biological father were both Jewish,"
Fischers mother was Jewish there is no doubt about that or well the little doubt that exists is minimum but to say that Fishcers biological father was probably Jewish or "Fischer, whose mother and probable biological father were both Jewish" that's just simply wrong. This theory that his father was infact Jewish is alright and maybe it's even correct but say that his father was probably Jewish is stating an opinion which is not backed by facts, it is most probable that Fischers father was his registered birthfather and nobody else so if one would like to use the written text in a changed correct form then it should say "Fischer, whose mother was Jewish and whose probable biological father was not,"...
I don't feel like rewriting that line to look right so I ask that someone else changes it, if not done soon however I'll simply delete it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.90.118 (talk) 20:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro Jewish? Strange text? 

message:  Was it? If so how widely? Not in the Soviet Union surely? "pitting a single American against the Soviet system" should be deleted. Bias and stuff, innit? 86.42.111.78 (talk) 22:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  widely publicized as a Cold War battle pitting a single American against the Soviet system.? 

message: Do you think the pictures in the article look silly?  I know I've seen much better pictures of Fischer.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.85.233 (talk) 23:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better pictures? 

message: It has been a long time policy of the editos of wikipedia to:
1. Stress to anoyance that Bobby Fischer was jewish, while Bobby Ficher himself did non want anybody to consider him jewish.
2. That he was Icelander instead of American, while he has been only 3 years from that nationality, and only as a result of political asilum offered by Iceland, after the politicaal persecution of the U.S. against Bobby Fisher.
The resut is that editing of this page is blocked, under the excuse of vandalism. Wikipedia is becoming to know as a dictatorship of its core editors. Truly, no wonder.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.17.85.163 (talk) 20:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if they stress those things, they only mention them, to the extent that they are true. 86.42.111.78 (talk) 22:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WHY EDITORS BLOCKED THE PAGE ? ]] 

message: Please, can you explain, why you have removed the :Category:Icelandic people from the article. The discription was that this category is controversal. For me, this breaks the NPOV. I am noting again, that the facts that he has got the Icelandic citizenship makes him an Icelandic. This is written in the introduction and in the infobox. It should be added in the categories. This doesn't mean that he was Icelandic chess player.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, In my edit summary I mentioned that I controversially removed that category while I consensus removed the other one in effect stating that I would understand if anyone readded the category. My reason for removing the category is that well when I think of Bobby Fischer "Icelandic people" isn't something that comes to my mind, sure he stayed here us for some time and it was really nice to have him and while we probably valued him more than most of us he still wasn't one of us if you know what I mean, I based this removal more on feeling than on policy or classification and it may well be that it violates NPOV so you are free to readd it if you want but a good question is if someone were to ask you or perhaps an Icelandic person: "Could you name me some Icelandic people" Bobby Fischer would hardly be amongst the names mentioned.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In Canada if you become a citizen you are considered "Canadian" the same as any other Canadian, regardless of how long you are here. BashBrannigan (talk) 20:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Since he became an Icelandic citizen, he belongs in the "Icelandic people" category. Krakatoa (talk) 14:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you sure Icelandic citizens is equal to Icelandic people? Loosmark (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there any citizens other than people? If citizens is not equivalent to people then "people" needs to be clarified. Is it physical appearance, ancestry, race, religion, knowing which side of the road to drive on? Do you wish to make that clarification?BashBrannigan (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, there is no official definition of the category "Icelandic people". To my mind, any Icelandic citizen qualifies as an "Icelandic person". Conceivably there could also be other persons who live in or are associated with Iceland (for instance, people who were born outside of Iceland, have long resided in Iceland, but have not been granted Icelandic citizenship) who could be deemed "Icelandic people". In other words, I would say that having Icelandic citizenship would be sufficient, though perhaps not necessary, to make one an "Icelandic person". That is just my opinion, of course - but are you suggesting that something beyond Icelandic citizenship is necessary to make one an "Icelandic person"? If so, what? Or, if you wish to address just this specific case, are you suggesting that Fischer should not be deemed an "Icelandic person" and, if so, why? Krakatoa (talk) 07:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  well i don't know but for example if somehow i'd get chinese citizenship tomorrow would that make me a Chinese person? Loosmark (talk) 09:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Q:Bobby Fischer was Icelandic wasn't he? A:No Fischer only lived in Iceland as a refugee the last few years of his life, Fischer was actually American. This may be a trivial point of view that I am demonstrating here so feel free to add the Icelandic people category if you wish to do so but this "Could you name me some Icelandic people test" is something which Fischer fails.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, dear Loosmark. Can you tell me, then what is the definition for "American people". Are Americans people from the indigenous tribes, that populated today's territory of the USA, or Americans are English, French, Russian, German, Italian, and other immigrants? On this Wikipedia, an American is every person, who got American citizenship. As you can consider American citizens as American people, it's same and you must consider the Icelandic citizens with Icelandic people.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 23:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To follow up on some of above. I checked and Lucy Liu is in the categories of Asian Americans and Chinese Americans, but NOT Chinese Peoples. So "Chinese Peoples" does not refer to race, but to citizenship. Ghandi is in the category of "expatriates in South Africa" not "African peoples". Question: If Ghandi is today considered to have been a South African, if he was alive today, could he vote in a South African election?BashBrannigan (talk) 01:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is POV for someone to be deciding "well, sure, he was a citizen of Iceland, but I don't think he was Icelandic enough." To avoid that sort of improper subjective decision, we need a bright-line rule to the extent that is possible.  Any subject of a Wikipedia article who was a citizen of Iceland should automatically be considered a member of "Icelandic people". Krakatoa (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  In my view the problem with Fischer is he didn't even speak icelandic. Loosmark (talk) 11:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: What BashBrannigan said. Millions of American people don't speak English. Krakatoa (talk) 20:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But the people who don't speak English are "American people", although they don't recognize their selves as Americans. In this case, Fischer asked for the Icelandic citizenship. So, he wanted to become Icelandic. It is clear that if Fischer, with getting the Icelandic citizenship didn't become member of the group of Icelandic people, then the American people don't exist, or they are the people of the indigenous tribes, that populated the territory of the USA. I agree with you. It's good to have hyperbolic thinks or feelings about your native country and the people who live there, but the reality is different. Bobby Fischer was an American chess player, one of the greatest players, but he was Icelandic (Icelandic people) too.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Icelandic people 

message: Did I miss a mention of some of Bobby Fischer's sexist remarks in the article? Surely these are noteworthy...--ZincBelief (talk) 14:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know whether the issue was notable enough to be widely disussed? Do you have any references besides dirt-digging paparazzi? - Altenmann >t 16:05, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm unaware of any extreme sexist attitudes by Fischer that would be notable. Also, Fischer grew up in the 50s where many attitudes that would be considered sexist today, were widely held at the time. BashBrannigan (talk) 16:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of Fischer's alleged sexism comes from his notorious 1961 interview with Ralph Ginzburg, in which the 18 year old Fischer is quoted as saying, "They're all weak, all women. They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know." Ginzburg conveniently "lost" the interview tapes, and Fischer disputed much of what Ginzburg published. Besides, a different picture emerges from Russians vs Fischer, where Koblencs recalls Fischer at the 1959 Candidates Tournament asking him and Tal what they thought of the style of a Russian female player named Dmitriyeva: "We gaped. Tal and I have studied thousands of games, but it never even occurred to us to study the games of our women chessplayers. How could we find the time for this. Yet Bobby, it turns out, had found it."--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:55, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexism 

message: There is almost no support for the entire section of the article Bobby_Fischer#Involvement_with_the_Worldwide_Church_of_God. Apart from the first sentence which I put in, concerning the skepticism Fischer about religion that Fischer had previously expressed to Ralph Ginzburg, almost everything in the section is unsupported. Moreover, the only sources cited for anything are two Internet articles critical of Garner Ted Armstrong and the Church by the "Ambassador Report", whatever that is. I question whether these are reliable sources. If, as I have suggested on the WikiProject Chess talk page, we try to get this article to Good Article status, this section will be an obvious target. We should either furnish reliable sources for this section, or delete it. Krakatoa (talk) 11:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Involvement with the Worldwide Church of God