Talk:British Isles/Archive 1

message: After searching a great number of news sources vie Google for "British Isles" the "about" results are below it doesn’t look like the term is common at all, it be hard to argue that it's even common in the UK…
 
The more I look into this the more it comes apparent the term is mainly used by those who think accuracy is less important then convenience. This does not include news sources in general or at least their usage does not amount to common usage as the article suggests. 
Like some of the links previously provided, many may not be using the term as to include Ireland or may be talking about history or historic groups from when Britain ruled Ireland…
Ireland
*38 from rte.ie 
*2 from rte.ie/news
*16 from breakingnews.ie 
*34 from ireland.com
*78 from unison.ie 
*18 from irishexaminer.com
UK
*518 from guardian.co.uk (inc the Observer) 
*393 from timesonline.co.uk 
*64 from dailymail.co.uk
*938 from news.bbc.co.uk
*4 from express.co.uk
*17 from reuters.co.uk
*131 from scotsman.com
*30 from belfasttelegraph.co.uk
*11 from thesun.co.uk 
*6 from sky.com
US
*211 from cnn.com
*12 from foxnews.com 
*177 from nytimes.com 
*31 from latimes.com 
*100 from washingtonpost.com
*44 from economist.com
*41 from usatoday.com
*23 from reuters.com
Canada
*36 from canada.com
*47 from cbc.ca
*42 from theglobeandmail.com
Australia
*105 from news.com.au
*129 from smh.com.au
*172 from abc.net.au
Monucg 03:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is commonly used.  You can hear it in almost any weather forecast for the region. Waggers 12:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What channels use it in their weather forecast? Just UK ones? Even if so, what ones? Monucg 21:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The term is very commonly used.  I suspect the person who first raised this issue was an American!  They never use the correct term and prefer to label the whole British Isles as simply 'England'.  
The term is always used in Europe to refer to the group of island which include the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and sometimes the Channel Islands also.  How else would you describe these islands?
I just searched on Google for "British Isles" and found 10,600,000 hits. For comparison "Britain" has 35,500,000 hits. So the term British Isles is very commonly used across the Internet. EdH 18:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not Common 

message: Does anyone think it would be a good idea to have a page called 'History of the British Isles' (or whatever term you want to use for Britain and Ireland)? There has been a huge trend for 'British Isles' histories in the last few years (Eg Norman Davies' The Isles as well many others.) This gives a different perspective than looking at the different countries separately by concentrating on the interactions between them.
: It does sound rather a good idea, yes.
: James F. (talk) 23:23, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of the 'British Isles' 

message: I don't like that part about a mysterious ""early source" at all. Would you please  state which source that is? That would help a lot to make the changes useful. Will some Expert for the British Isles have a look at it? Lady Tenar 22:29, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  latest changes by an anon 

message: It seems to me that the terms Britannia or British Isles pre-existed as a mapmakers designation when James VI & I used "Great Britain" as a political construct to provide a shared (ancient) identity for his kingdoms, with the "local" use of "British Isles" following on from that construct. It would be interesting to know if the original formulation of "Great Britain" excluded Ireland.  References to Three Kingdoms suggest autonomous countries united under his (autocratic) rule, with the terms no more indicating imposing subservience to a dominant country than "Europe" does today to most in the EU. The Irish confederate leadership sought agreement with Charles I in 1642, and in the Williamite war in Ireland James VII & II was accepted as king, suggesting that their quarrels were with policies rather than looking for a new monarch.  This situation obviously differed in the 20th century with British becoming a nationality which Republican Irish felt opposed to, though well into this period they were referring to "cruel England" rather than Britain. It's not clear just when this objection to "British" started, but an encyclopedia should be wary of projecting current political correctness back onto the past. It is of course right that the current sensitivities should be recorded, but the use of "British Isles" for the archipelago is likely to remain in common use outside Eire for the foreseeable future. dave souza 01:41, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Developing discussion..

message: As usual there is no discussion of Cornwall and the Cornish.
many maps up until 1600 showed Cornubia as a distinct region on a par if not with Scotia and Anglia then most definitely with Wallia. Not least of which would be Gerardus Mercator Atlas, see the "CORNWALL & WALES ("Cornewallia & Wallia") 1564" 
*Mercators Atlas
Can i recommend two books for you edification on Cornish history
"Cornwall a History" by Philip Payton of Exeter university.
"West Britons, Cornish identities in the early modern period" by Mark Stoyle of South Hampton University.
Also why are no links given to works by Gildas or Geoffrey of Monmouth. If you are going to have links to the anglocentric pseudo historian Bede why not some for these two as well?
Also check these two websites.
*BBC
*British Isles
Fulub le Breton
:I think I miss your point—what of Cornubia? Why does it deserve special mention? It is currently identified as part of the United Kingdom, or England on a subnational level. Mercia and Wessex were also once subnational entities, they have no mention nor is there particular need to... --Oldak Quill 16:34, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  And what of Cornubia? 

message: There are already Dispute over the name of the Persian Gulf and Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan articles.  From what I've read here, it seems this geographical naming dispute probably merits it own article as well.--Pharos 19:58, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent suggestion. The consistency of the naming doesn't single out this dispute in any way, perfectly N PoV. The link would be as at Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan, perfectly plain, isolated for visibility, right at the bottom. --Wetman 20:18, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about [[Dispute over the name of the British Isles]] ? 

message: Flora and fauna, geology, langiuage, migration patterns, production/exports/imports, climate etc. Would be nice, as well as the extensive discussion over the term. Rich Farmbrough 11:15, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links  or sections on... 

message: Sorry, but it's just not correct or acceptable to include Ireland in the British Isles; or more relevantly to use use the term British Isles to include Ireland. This really is not a matter of debate, it is simply NOT just a geographical term. 
How about if we just start calling the English Channel "La Manche"? The point is that these are not just simple and neutral "geographic" terms.
Paulc1001 23:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  "British Isles" is purely geographical.  Ireland is as much part of the British Isles as Canada is part of North America.  It doesn't imply any political "belonging" of ROI to the UK, any more than saying "Canada is in North America" implies "Canada is part of the USA".  Any encyclopedia worth its keep will recognise the British Isles as including (the island of) Eire. Waggers 12:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Canada is, of course, on the continent of North America.  Ireland is not on the island of Britain.  Ireland is as much in the 'British Isles' as Britain is in the 'Irish Isles'.  Saying Ireland is in the British Isles is like saying that Portugal is on the 'Spanish Peninsula'.  The only reason the name has become the Geographical name and has stuck is because of British influence on world affairs during the 19th century.  The Irish were never consulted and I think they have a right to complain.
The term "British Isles" long predated the British state. Indeed, that's why the English chose the word "British" to describe themselves, when they annexed Scotland, because it was a pre-existing term. As a student of Anglo-Saxon history, I find the terms British and English mutually exclusive. TharkunColl 00:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: How about if we just start calling the English Channel "La Manche"? The point is that these are not just simple and neutral "geographic" terms.
If you are speaking in French you should call the English Channel la Manche. Similarly, in English the name of the archipelago is British Isles. What's its name in Irish? Markus Schmaus 00:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ireland not part of Britiish Isles 

message: Mercator produced CORNWALL & WALES ("Cornewallia & Wallia") in 1564: 
Sebastian Munster produced maps depicting Cornwall as a distinct region of Britain in 1538, 1540, and 1550. 
George Lily produced a map showing Cornubia in 1556.
Girolamo Ruscelli did the same in 1561 portraying Cornubia alongside Anglia, Wallia and Scotia.
Johannes Honter followed this trend in 1561.
Humphrey Lhuyd and Abraham Ortelius produced Angliae Regni Florentissimi Nova Descripto in 1573, this showed Cornwall and Wales as distinct regions of England, however Cornwall was not portrayed as an English county. This map was re used in 1595 at about the same time that Norden produced the map of the Duchy (not county) of Cornwall.
From about 1600 things change the Mare Brittanica and the Celtic sea become the English Channel and Bristol/St Georges Channel respectively. At this time Cornwall also seems to become an English county. Why, there is no record of an act of union or annexation of Cornwall?
Bretagne 44 16:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cornubia

message: From Talk:British_Isles_%28terminology%29#British_Isles_.3D_Redundant.
Is is just my imagination or would one article suffice? I think one article would be better than two articles as the British Isles (terminology) article is essentially a disambiguation that has become a dumping ground for the "heavy" material and a kind of Politics and geography of the British Isles that is an uneccessary rehash of what this article should be. Djegan 20:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[British Isles (terminology)]]

message: "The inhabitants of the British Isles in classical times were the Celtic Bruthin or Priteni, later known as the "Brythons", who were in Great Britain and Ireland some time before the 5th century BC"
Now look, that's flat out wrong, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the Celts were ever the predominant population of either island at any time in our history. So along those lines I'm going to rewrite this section. Fergananim 19:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Celts in Britain and Ireland ... where?

message: Can anybody substantiate the claim that the "British Isles" is offensive to Scottish and Welsh people? I've never heard of that being the case, and it's a bit bonkers since Scotland and Wales definitely *are* part of Britain. --Khendon 20:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Offensive to Scottish and Welsh people?

message: Let's assume that the correct and neutral name for this group of islands remains "British Isles", until such a time as a new name is agreed upon by the involved parties/governments/language governing bodies (whether "Bria" or "Hiberno-British Isles" or "Anglo-Celtic Island" or "Atlantic Islands" as suggested further up on this talk page). Are the Channel Islands included in this geographic region? Other sources state that their alternative name is Anglo-Normannic Islands and that they are not located within the British Isles, but rather lie deep in the Gulf of Saint Malo ("Malvinian Bay") between the Cotentin Peninsula and Britanny. Moreover, the map intended to illustrate the extent of the British Isles depicts only some of the islands mentioned in the text, notably omitting the Shetlands and the Isles of Scilly. Should this omission be taken to reflect on correct usage and meaning of the term? //Big Adamsky 21:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the numbered map.  Apart from being Big and Ugly, it excludes Shetland and the Channel Islands, and does not label the Isle of Man. And four  maps is too many.  Though personally I don't miss the Scilly Isles.  An improved version could replace the cities map. Joestynes 01:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if the map of the islands should go so should the map of the cities as it does not show all of the cities, no its point of view. Incidentially that "big and ugly" map was mine. Djegan 18:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The map

message: Why the unverified and original research tag? Robdurbar 18:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm guessing the "Alternative terms" section, which reads like an "add your suggestion here" section.  The only 2 I've seen used unselfconsciously in Ireland are not listed: "these islands" (common in The Irish Times; not "these Isles") and "Britain and Ireland" (very different from "Great Britain and Ireland") Joestynes 19:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Well if its for that I think I'll remove the tag - all these terms are used and a sources provided Robdurbar 09:17, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tag

message: A poll is currently underway to determine the rendition of the island, nation-state, and disambiguation articles/titles for Ireland in Wp.  Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 08:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:Republic_of_Ireland#Poll:_Ireland_article_titles|Poll: Ireland article titles]]