Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 36

message: Popefauvexxiii: From the introductory language you have edited out the number considered "adherents" by Jehovah's Witnesses. You have asserted this information is misleading, depite its verification by reference material. Can you explain why you think verified information of the number considered as adherents by Jehovah's Witnesses is in some way misleading? If you have no valid explanation for your claim then readers and researchers have every right to have this information and it should be put back into the article. -- Marvin Shilmer (talk) 19:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adherents 

message: the use of this word is not POV, it is synonymous with believe.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wonderpet (talk • contribs) 23:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Affirm means to verify as true, which is not the same as merely 'believe', and is POV.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffro77 (talk • contribs) 01:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/believe Wonderpet (talk) 03:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wonderpet, please pay attention to how a word is most likely to be interpreted by readers, not merely how it can be. http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/affirm --Jeffro77 (talk) 03:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  use of the word affirm in the opening statement 

message: I made some changes to "nationalism and holidays" because I have always thought references to our beliefs on sneezing or religious titles didn't fit that section. I put these references in other sections ("Christianity" and "death"). I really feel they might need another section to fit their purpose, but this is where I felt they fit best. Correction is welcome. --Brotherlawrence (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to "Beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses" 

message: Odd spacing problems under "Beliefs and Practices".  I couldn't fix it...Smarkflea (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spacing 

message: Some of the section on blood reads more like a newspaper article than an encyclopaedia. Is it just me?--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really see what's wrong with it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, 'infomercial' seems to be a good way to describe the current section. I might give it a trim later on.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blood section

message: Some of the external web sites should probably be referenced in the articles that they specifically relate to. It would be best if sites referenced by the main article are those that deal with JWs in a broad sense rather than about specific issues.
In particular, I suggest that the "Reform on Blood" site be referenced in the JW and Blood article, and the "Pastor-Russell.com" site be referenced in the JW History article, not in the main article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've indicated before, I agree with the above perspective. --Richard (talk) 08:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External Sites

message: From an academic perspective the concern I have with this web site is that it appears to mirror a site that formerly had been removed under judicial review due to copyright violation. I believe the issue went beyond copyright infringement of text. As I recall some of the images were (are?) also copyright protected. Does anyone here know if the copyrighted material remains on the current web page? If the current web site contains all the material of the original site, then it would be inappropriate to have a link to it in the article. We should not patronize poor actors.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 15:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Web site www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk

message: An anonymous editor is insisting on the removal of Crisis of Conscience. Aside from the book (which I have not read), presenting a critical view of JWs, is there any valid reason for its exclusion?--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read Crisis of Conscience. It provides a very interesting view of the inner workings of Bethel as well as being written by someone who was prominent in the organization. It is critical of some aspects of Jehovah's Witness religion but I personally think it is an interesting book and worthy of mention. - Stephoswalk (talk) 10:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Books section

message: The following sentence in the article seems to have a few issues:
College and university education is discouraged if a student cannot balance his or her responsibilities, and if it is perceived as a threat to one's spiritual cleanness (due to an immoral atmosphere at some institutions, and a general promotion of materialism and other undermining influences on Scriptural faith)
1) JWs are generally 'not encouraged' rather than specifically 'discouraged' from university (in print, though discouragement from further education varies regionally). (Though previous JW publications explicitly discouraged tertiary education - particularly leading up to 1975, the view has shifted since.)
2) They don't encourage it because students may not be able to balance responsibilities, not merelyif (which would suggest a case-by-case basis).
3) 'Spiritual cleanness' verges on jargon.
4) 'immoral atmosphere at some institutions, and a general promotion of materialism' are both POV.
5) 'undermining influences on Scriptural faith' is POV, and oversimplifies JW interpretations of scripture to 'Scriptural faith'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You've probably considered this, but some of the Society's comments about these things are here.w05 10/1 pp. 28-30 pars. 11-12 Parents—What Future Do You Want for Your Children? 
"11 Then there is the environment. University and college campuses are notorious for bad behavior —drug and alcohol abuse, immorality, cheating, hazing, and the list goes on. Consider alcohol abuse. ... When it comes to sexual immorality, ... Studies show that from 60 to 80 percent of students engage in this kind of activity. “If you’re a normal college student,” says one researcher, “you do it.”—1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:9, 10.
12 In addition to the bad environment, there is the pressure of schoolwork and examinations. Naturally, students need to study and do their homework to pass the exams. Some may also need to hold at least a part-time job while going to school. All of this takes a great deal of their time and energy. What, then, will be left for spiritual activities? When pressures mount, what will be let go? Will Kingdom interests still come first, or will they be put aside? (Matthew 6:33) ... How sad that some have fallen away from the faith as a result of succumbing to the demands on their time and energy or of getting entangled in unscriptural conduct at college!"  Can some of this language be used?--Brotherlawrence (talk) 19:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

text: (I replaced your reference with a blockquote, because the Talk page has no references section.) Your reference expresses JW POV, particularly on sexual morality, and so is not appropriate unless identified as a direct quote. If it were included, it would only be necessary to quote small parts rather than entire paragraphs.--Jeffro77 (talk) 22:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Education

message: Hi, how about Our Kingdom Ministry? Someone can create about this? Mikhailov Kusserow (talk) 02:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deo Volente 

message: When I google "Jehovah's Witnesses" and click the Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses) I sometimes get a corrupted article.  This happens if I delete temporary internet files including cookies and don't log in.  The article starts as follows:
"Jehovah's Witnesses are members of an international CULT new religious movement, they are very strange people who are so off the wall, they will make you feel happy you are not one of them, whose adherents believe it to be the restoration of first-century Christianity.[1][2] The religion was developed ..."
This is as opposed to the usual version that I pull up at the same address when logged into the website:
"Jehovah's Witnesses are members of an international Christian new religious movement, whose adherents believe it to be the restoration of first-century Christianity.[1][2] The religion was developed ..."
Not sure how to report this tampering with the website, so I'm posting this observation here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supersquid999 (talk • contribs) 14:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tampering of this article - two versions 

message: Uhhhh... is the entire article supposed to be in a box? Dookama (talk) 09:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Layout 

message: Came in to check progress on the article since my last edit on 10 January. Despite over 200 edits since, the net change is 'long article' tag and the number of members. Not terribly encouraging.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Constructive

message: I've noticed that the vast majority of this article is written from a Jehovah's Witness perspective.  I think more input from outside sources are needed for an unbiased description. Shaneroosky (talk) 05:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Seriously? Do you think the article on evolution is not closely guarded by darwinists? and the article on days of our lives, is it not being kept from vandalism by fans of the show? 70.190.103.36 (talk) 03:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict of Interest 

message: Anyone know where this originated?  Check out the The Valley of Berachah and read this.  Interesting stuff, that seems to tie in well with what I've read about JWs.  Read 2 Chronicles 20:22-27. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 21:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The linked article appears to have no direct tie in with Jehovah's Witnesses, other than being another religious group that happens to use the name 'Jehovah'. There is nothing as to the origin of the term 'Jehovah's Witnesses' therein. The term is derived from Isaiah 43:10.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Term: Jehovah's Witnesses 

message: I just linked an edit of this article to the "Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline" page and removed some of the material in this article on disfellowshipping. Not sure how to handle this, but still, much of what I removed seems excessive to me. --Brotherlawrence (talk) 05:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline" - deletion? 

message: This section is a news item in this article. It is not about Jehovah’s Witnesses in general. This information belongs in the article Persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 19:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Section [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses#Prosecution_in_Singapore Prosecution in Singapore]

message: I realize that this may not be the intent, but showing the name of G-d in its original Hebrew is offensive in anything other than sacred texts like the Torah, Tenakh, Bible, etc.  If you could please simply show the Hebrew characters and their names and describe the order they fall in as Yud Hei Vav Hei rather than show the actual written Hebrew name of G-d I would be eternally thankful.  You can accomplish the same goal of relaying the data without insulting us Jews.  Thank you...
--JC Rauch (talk) 19:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Boker Tov!  I'm sorry to say, my friend, the JW's have used the name of god on their magazines before in the original written form before, and they will do it again.  They never show respect to any religion except for their own.  Don't hold your breath for any JW to do otherwise.  Just ignore this fringe Christian church and live your life.
ColdRedRain (talk) 05:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid that's just not going to happen. Wikipedia is not censored for the benefit of any group or individual. While it strives to be respectful, it will not omit information or content out of regard for anyone. --GoodDamon 17:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Name of G-d Written in Hebrew 

message: Regarding the statements:
*"Baptized Witnesses who violate the prohibition on blood are subject to organized communal shunning. However, it is a personal decision on how their "own blood will be handled in the course of a surgical procedure, medical test, or current therapy.""
Stating that such is a 'personal decision' is ridiculous. It is also "a personal decision" for someone to kill another person, but to state such is to ignore the context of the consequences.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal Decision

message: I have moved section about Singapore to the appropriate place. Does it need to be included at all? Singapore is not the only country where JW literature is banned, so it is odd that this particular location should be given special attention.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:09, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it's unnecessary. It shouldn't add to this already-long article when it can go in Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ...or make a new article The Banning of Jehovah's Witnesses & add. --Avinesh Jose   T   08:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The existing article, Jehovah's Witnesses and governments is sufficient for that purpose.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Jeffro, I think you have not moved it yet there, did you? --Avinesh Jose   T   09:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No. I've done that now. Please feel free to do so yourself next time.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Prosecution in Singapore

message: All books listed under "Further reading" and "Books" that have links are negative books concerning Jehovah's Witnesses. For a balanced information positive and/or neutral informative books should be added.--Saujad (talk) 04:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Or we could just delete the section, seeing as how there are plenty of reference which people can read along with the external links. There's no need to provide an additional list of books when there are plenty of references which can serve as further reading for those interested. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books