Talk:Satmar/Archive 1

message: I've been studying Satmar for a good bit, and I've been to Kiryas Joel. I've never heard it called "Sakmer". Are we sure about this? --Yodamace1 01:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: there is a street in KJ called Sakmer
also: look at this http://tovrent.com/satmar/85.jpg
The reason some call it Sakmer is because the name Satmer is based on Satu Mare which remotely referes Saint Mary [NOTE - not true, Satu Mare means simply "Large Village" in Romanian!]. Hassidic Jews have always refrained from sanctifying Christian saints and therefore have created alternative names for quite a few cities. Izak love, when you don't know something, that does not make it balony. Cockneyite 20:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I revised the opening paragraph by indicating the Satmars are one of the largest hasidic groups - it is widely thought there are about 200,000 Lubavitchers, but since none of the hasidic groups keeps a formal membership role, this is all conjecture - it would be incorrect for any group to claim they are the largest, there is no way of knowing.Incorrect 14:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: :with Satu coming from the same root as "city" (civitas)
Actually, it's not like this. In Romanian, "satu" is derived from Latin "fossatum" and it originally meant a village encircled by a moat (in Latin "fossa"). "Cetate" is the Romanian word derived from "civitas". bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 10:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: People have mistaken this article to be a fork of HydePark.co.il. It is not. And due to its encylopaedic nature, please do not appeal to users to refrain from making a chilul Hashem, because, frankly, nobody gives a shite. The purpose of this site is informative, not Satmer's - or Judaism's - PR page, nor is it a private opinion venting station. If you are a member of this site, and its NPOV policy is not in accordance with your religious beliefs, you are kindly requested to hold your peace. State the true UNFILTERED truth, but only that, please. Cockneyite 21:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: :מר שלום שלמה קערט נישט פון לשון הרע און כבוד הגדולים ווייל ער איז א פרייער שייגעץ - קוק אף זיינער פרופייל - ער זוגט אז ער איז א אגנאסטיק און א ליבעראל - זיין כוונה איז צו באשמירען ערליכער אידען און תורה בכלל רחמנא לצלן!!!
::Translation, please? ShalomShlomo 10:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the translation, Cockneyite. No wonder this guy prefers tossing out anonymous insults- it seems there is but a short jump from having a profile to it being used for ad hominems.
Tell me, Anon, at what point have I slandered the Torah? You do know you're supposed to cite your sources here, right? But I guess it's only slander if "shlita" comes after the subject's name. I wonder, was the above approved by the Satmar rebbe? Which one? ShalomShlomo 01:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nasty Nasty, tsk tsk. Cockneyite 01:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Reverted. Do you really want to start this edit-war again?ShalomShlomo 17:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: What do you think about the idea of moving it (or parts of it) to the brothers' individual pages? ShalomShlomo 23:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: ShalomShlomo: I agree with you about the pattern of divisiveness in the Hasidic world and the Haredi world at large. However, here are two observations: Unfortunately, the very effective and great recently deceased (relatively speaking) leaders of these movements and dynasties did not make strong enough and good enough preparation for a succession to their (near absolute) rule once they would leave the scene. This seems to be a problem as old as the Tanakh, when David had to be warned and told by Nathan (acting as an envoy from God Himself) to remove a bad son and ensure that his good son Solomon would inherit the throne. And secondly, many people mistake the competition between camps as a reflection of some sort of "weakness" in Hasidic or Haredi Judaism, which it is definitely NOT. The problems of rival leaders arises because nowadays there are enough followers (and hence cash) to go after all the competing leaders. So it's a manifestation of growth in numbers and over-all strength of the movements and not a reflection of their weakness. These are part of their "growth pains" as they reach to become and grow ever more numerous and powerful. Stay tuned, as they say... IZAK 11:58, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IZAK: Quite right. If anything, I'd say this simply highlights the fact that many Haredi communities are, as they have always been, centered around charismatic personalities. This in itself isn't a weakness; the issue is what happens when that personality is gone and there is no one who can necessarily take their place (or at least, not for a long while). If anything, the "weakness" is not in the Haredi world or lifestyle itself, but rather in that these various communities have yet to determine efficient and orderly succession procedures, esp. in cases where no one "candidate" is necessarily more "rebbe-like" than another. This is also true to an extent among Misnagdim. AFAIK, there has really been no one in that community who has effectively replaced or even come close to filling the hole left by Schach's death. What will happen when Elyiashiv finally passes on? Again, these aren't "weaknesses" so much as objective consequences of having communities with this type of hierarchical structure. And, of course, there's also the growing influence of an increasingly pervasive "modern" (secular) world, which, among other things, makes minority and dissident voices stronger, or at least more vocal. 200 years ago, a younger son who wanted to go against the birth order would have either bided his time or moved to the next town. Nowadays, they don't have to; they can challenge their brother's legitimacy, and gain at least a small following. I supect that, to a certain degree, this is the result of the rebellious secular world "rubbing off" on the haredim. ShalomShlomo 20:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

text: And I still don't care about your personal opinions. Deleting someone else's comments on a discussion page? What is wrong with you? ShalomShlomo 17:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I refer you to my userpage Cockneyite 01:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Same way a Satmar Chosid can be an insufferable cad. Cockneyite 00:58, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fun With Translations

message: Again guys: Please do not create an "Aaron-Zalman Conflict" article as such a title is a neologism meaning you are making up new words that is not in common usage (go ahead, look up neologism). IZAK 11:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think about the idea of moving it (or parts of it) to the brothers' individual pages? ShalomShlomo 23:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Neologism

message: IZAK- Just wanted to highlight and agree with your last point. This is precisely why when I originally wrote the conflict section I included comparisons to other Hasidic conflicts, which I thought was particularly valuable. While the Teitelbaum conflict is on the one hand a very specific dispute between two brothers, it also seems to be part of an ongoing pattern, a-la Vizhnitz, Toldos Aharon, and now Bobov (and, arguably, Chabad). The Hasidic (and haredi) world seem to be undergoing an increase in factionalism, and people interested in such things would certainly do well to include Satmar as an extreme (and publicized) example of a particularly volatile schism-in-progress. Not only is the Satmar conflict important vis-a-vis its own community, but also for its relevance in the larger context of changes taking place in the "modern" Hasidic world. ShalomShlomo 10:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ShalomShlomo: I agree with you about the pattern of divisiveness in the Hasidic world and the Haredi world at large. However, here are two observations: Unfortunately, the very effective and great recently deceased (relatively speaking) leaders of these movements and dynasties did not make strong enough and good enough preparation for a succession to their (near absolute) rule once they would leave the scene. This seems to be a problem as old as the Tanakh, when David had to be warned and told by Nathan (acting as an envoy from God Himself) to remove a bad son and ensure that his good son Solomon would inherit the throne. And secondly, many people mistake the competition between camps as a reflection of some sort of "weakness" in Hasidic or Haredi Judaism, which it is definitely NOT. The problems of rival leaders arises because nowadays there are enough followers (and hence cash) to go after all the competing leaders. So it's a manifestation of growth in numbers and over-all strength of the movements and not a reflection of their weakness. These are part of their "growth pains" as they reach to become and grow ever more numerous and powerful. Stay tuned, as they say... IZAK 11:58, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IZAK: Quite right. If anything, I'd say this simply highlights the fact that many Haredi communities are, as they have always been, centered around charismatic personalities. This in itself isn't a weakness; the issue is what happens when that personality is gone and there is no one who can necessarily take their place (or at least, not for a long while). If anything, the "weakness" is not in the Haredi world or lifestyle itself, but rather in that these various communities have yet to determine efficient and orderly succession procedures, esp. in cases where no one "candidate" is necessarily more "rebbe-like" than another. This is also true to an extent among Misnagdim. AFAIK, there has really been no one in that community who has effectively replaced or even come close to filling the hole left by Schach's death. What will happen when Elyiashiv finally passes on? Again, these aren't "weaknesses" so much as objective consequences of having communities with this type of hierarchical structure. And, of course, there's also the growing influence of an increasingly pervasive "modern" (secular) world, which, among other things, makes minority and dissident voices stronger, or at least more vocal. 200 years ago, a younger son who wanted to go against the birth order would have either bided his time or moved to the next town. Nowadays, they don't have to; they can challenge their brother's legitimacy, and gain at least a small following. I supect that, to a certain degree, this is the result of the rebellious secular world "rubbing off" on the haredim. ShalomShlomo 20:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

text: And I still don't care about your personal opinions. Deleting someone else's comments on a discussion page? What is wrong with you? ShalomShlomo 17:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I refer you to my userpage Cockneyite 01:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Same way a Satmar Chosid can be an insufferable cad. Cockneyite 00:58, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparisons/Historical Context sub-section

message: Unprotected. Nothing happening on the talk page. Hopefully things have simmered down. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 07:12, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotected 

message: Is there any real reason to have this be its own section? If there was more information about Moshe as Sigheter rav, or about how Satmar has changed under his leadership, I could see it, but at present this division seems unecessary. Are there any objections to moving this sentence back up to the "background to the dynasty" section, at least until someone adds some more about Moshe to the page? ShalomShlomo 21:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks as always for your helpful (and topical!) responses. How's Eliashiv, btw?ShalomShlomo 23:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Delete and move the "Rabbi Moshe succeeds Rabbi Yoel..." section?

message: Perhaps I've missed it on the article page, but what is the predominant first language of the Satmarers? Is it Hungarian, Yiddish, or English? And which is the language of study (other than Hebrew)? Babajobu 00:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Primary language is Yiddish and most of them talk English as a second language. Hungarian is usually only spoken by the older age not necessary by those born in Hungary. (Neigerig 16:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is Yiddish - both as first language and for study (distinct of prayers). Hungarian is used by the old timers when they don't want the youngsters to understand, but most of them know as much Hungarian as Satmer's youth today knows English - which is nothing to write home to Momma about. It is therefore safe to assume that they wouldn't fall back on Hungarian when the young ears aren't about. Cockneyite 01:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Language

message: I'd like to provide a translation of the Hebrew Torah Veyirah (the name of many of the Satmar Yeshivas) on the page. I don't speak Hebrew, but Google suggests Veyirah means "fear". I'm guessing this is either meant to be translated/parsed as "Torah [of the God-]fearing", or, "[Yeshiva of the] Torah fearing". Can anyone confirm or corroborate? Is one of these the correct sense of the term? ShalomShlomo 06:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Torah V'Yirah תורה ויראה means "Torah and Fear." I presume that it means that they teach both the intellectual discipline of learning Torah and the emotional pursuit of "Fear of G-d" which is the root of the word "hareidi." That generally accords with Hasidic beliefs of education. If it were Torah b'Yirah "Torah in Fear" with a ב it would more closely correspond to your translations, but they would be more correct for "Toras Yir'im" תורת יראים and "Toras Yirah" תורת יראה respectively. PhatJew 19:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Meaning of Torah Veyirah

message: A note on "the city urshevve" - this is the small mountain town of Irshava, in the Carpathians of the Ukrainian Zakarpats'ka Oblast, the formerly Czechoslovak Podkarpatská Rus. Unlike the equally small highland town of Svalyava (Hungarian Szölyva), quite close, which still has a community of perhaps about 15 elderly Jews, Irshava as far as I know is now without any Jewish community.
:I entered it in to the page. I checked it out the real name is "Irsava".(Neigerig 13:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact "Irsava" should be "Iršava" ("š" is the "shin" sound), and there is a short Wikipedia article on this town, Hungarian Ilosva. 132.185.240.120 03:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: urshevve

message: Hi there, 
In the list of satmer rabbeim starting from the baal shem tov, it would be helpful and informative if someone with information can add dates so I can put the names in historical context. Can someone with the info put birth and death dates next to names?
Much appreciated, Amanda216.106.49.131 21:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates and timeline anyone??? 

message: Hi again, 
I came to the satmar page looking for information on their position on zionism+state of israel. I am interested in reading the position along with sources for the position (which gemarot, etc). There is no section about this. I do not have the time or knowledge of satmar to add much...I came here looking for the info. Also, I am new and still warming up to how to edit..If someone who knows about satmar and zionism (also, how they differ from other jewish groups on zionism) can add a section, it would be helpful. 
Thank you again, Amanda 216.106.49.131 21:56, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  and state of israel 

message: is it true that Rabbi Lipa Teitelbaum has been coronated as Zenta Rebbe?
::yep!! he has been crowned wednesday afternoon in a ceremony over their at barech moshe shul, attended by the leadership of the satmer kahilla and mosdos,
:::then why was it erased as vandalism? it should be restored
::::source here
info is true its just that he needs towear three things in the weekdays "strokes" (velvet thing on bekishe) white socks and tefillin (hehe)--REBELYIS 22:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rabbi Lipa 

message: Hi.  I'm a Jewish atheist and I'm debating what I think are white power guys pretending to be Satmar on Talk:Brit milah.  Can someone pop over please and let me know if I'm off base or not.  Thanks in advance.  jbolden1517Talk 15:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I need some Satmar help 

message: I removed the  tag. It doesn't mean "someone disagrees with this article". It means "there is an active discussion whether this article is neutral". Given that there is no substantial change in the perspective, I suspect there is no pressing need for such a tag if there is no discussion. JFW | T@lk 17:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I have seen both ayins (this page) and alephs (on a Satmar yeshiva in New York), and also neither (cf. the Hebrew Wikipedia page) in the spelling. The ayin sounds correct to me if we're going by Yiddish spelling and it's "Satmer", but the aleph seems correct if it's "Satmar". Which is it to be? Makaristos 02:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In New York it is always being spelled with an aleph.--Neigerig 12:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ayin or aleph or neither? 

message: some POV things have been put into the lineage - they should be fixed - i will fix some Itzik18 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected. It is spelt with an Aleph on Satmar's letterheads. Cockneyite 20:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV