Talk:Numerology/Archive 1

message: The above is an early draft of an article that is being considered for Nupedia.  I have the author's permission to post it on Wikipedia.  I have an unusual request: will you edit this article, as if you had to take responsibility for it (though granted you might not want to), so that it is fact-stating?  Then I'll present the results to the author and read them myself and see if we can proceed! -- Larry Sanger
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Done
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This is a vast improvement--thanks!  I think it could use another going-over or two, though.  For example, the first sentence is still not right, I think--far too broad (it seems to me).  Elaboration of accusations of pseudo-science, and the reaction to those accusations on the part of the pseudo-scientist, would be grand. -- Larry Sanger
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OK - there's some more.  Perhaps the author could develop it from here.
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Does any one know if the numerologists believe in some significance of the dates 1999/11/19 and 2000/2/2?  Nov 19, 1999 was the last day to have all odd digits in the date until 3111/1/1.  On the opposite end, the date Feb 2, 2000 was the first day to have all even digit since 888/8/28.
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An email is going around the internet on the numerology of the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack around the number 9 and 11: 
* date of attack: 9/11; 9 + 1 + 1 = 11
* 9/11 is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
* days remaining in the year after 9/11: 111 days
* Twin towers standing in New York skyline look like 11
* first plane to hit: flight 11
* State of New York: 11th state added to the union
* New York City: 11 letters
* Afghanistan: 11 letters
* The Pentagon: 11 letters
* Ramzi Yousef (convicted of attacking WTC in 1993): 11 letters
* 92 on board flight 11; 9+2 = 11
* number of crew members on flight 11: 11
* number of passengers on flight 93: 38; 3+8 = 11
* number of passengers on flight 175: 56; 5+6 = 11
* number of people on board flight 175: 65; 6+5 = 11
* number of floors in each TWC tower: 110; a multiple of 11
* number of floors in building 7: 47; 4+7=11
* flight 77: a multiple of 11
* number of passengers on flight 11: 81; 8+1 = 9
* number of crew members on flight 175: 9
* number of passengers on flight 93: 45; 4+5 = 9
Note for readers unfamiliar with the phone system in the US: 911 is the telephone number for emergency services nationwide.
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The Meaning of All This? 09-11-01
God's intervening hand in history. The West used to be Christian and blew it. We are the world's leaders in decadence now. There is a God. And He leaves His signature. Here is another 9-11 for you:
Genesis 11:01-09 There are 09 verses in chapter 11 in book 01 of the Bible describing the 'fall of the Tower of Babel'. Read the story, many associations can be made. And another Biblical 9-11:
B'reshit (Hebrew) is the first Word of the Bible. In Gematria the word totals 913. But be-reshit is two words really: the preposition 'be' and the noun 'reshit'. 'Be' is 2, so reshit, which means beginning, totals 911. That is God's message: this is only the beginning! You are headed for the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord! Repent!
For the ones that deem these things mere coincidences. Here is another coincidence. Here in Holland a Dutch politician was shot, Pim Fortuyn, 911 days later, Theo van Gogh was shot. It is only the beginning (reshit), 911, dial 911. Alarm! Bert Otten, NL, 17th March 2006
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I would like to interject my criticism to the views of those pointing to Biblical numeralogy and the 9/11 attack as well as Biblical points covered. I am not a degree holding Bible scholar, but even I know that the chapter and verse of the Bible were not added until the Middle Ages, thus it would seem somewhat unlikely that their would be such an occurence that the church officials who added chapter and verse would have had divine guidance to affix numbers associated with twenty-first century events to Biblical passages that can vaguely be interpreted as fulfillments of said passages.  Furthermore, most Hebrew scholars regard certain prefixes to nouns, such as an initial Beth to noun as in bereshith, as part of the root word not as a separate preposition.  
Also, the reference in the article on this page to a connection between the crosses of the British flag and the calling code of the United Kingdom also seems peculiar to me since the Union Jack of the United Kingdom has three crosses on it, not two.  These are the crosses of St. George, St. Andrew, and St. Patrick, and they refer to the union of England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland under one government.  If the numeralogy of said reference is correct, then this would make the sum of the numbers 66 not 44 which is the calling code in the U.K.
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Number of coincidences gullible minds will deem significant: infinity
-exactly, you can find those kinds of coincedence's anywhere if you look hard enough. Id you want to look at something with 9/11 this tells more than the number occurences: September 11, 1991 Bush Sr. "Out of these troubled times [The Gulf War], our fifth objective, the new world order, can emerge"...... September 12, 2001 Council on Foreign Relations"There is a chance that the President of the United States can use this disaster, to carry out what his father, a phrase his father used, I think, only once. And hasn't been used since. And that is a new world order.")
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What does the  classic mean in paragraph 2, 'classic numerology'?  Numerology of classical Greece and Rome?  It's not at all clear. --MichaelTinkler
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A believer just hacked this page.  It needs to be undone.  How does one do that?
Also, just for completeness, there is a serious modern critique of Number, with people like John Zerzan and George Lakoff taking political and cognitive-linguistic angles on it respectively.  Basically their position is that the Greek and Roman worlds elevated Number to a god, and trusted measurements and counting systems and external measurements made by a trusted hierarchy of priests or military or administrator types.... allowing them to develop strong physical infrastructure and military discipline, but totally losing the significance of differences between commodities, products, labor, and etc.
It's hard stuff to summarize, but I'll take a stab at it once the smoke clears.  Now, how do I put the original back?
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Vandalism now reverted.
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I prefer the term "pre-cognitive behavior"  ;-)
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OK, there is now an end section on the way that cognitive science of mathematics' claims seem to categorize many "scientific" uses of numbers as effectively variants on numerology.
I included the "primate argument", but not the "robot argument" ... since most people do not grant that robot action follows from a kind of cognition, but most people do grant that behavior of (other) primates does.
I gave Zerzan short shrift as he is very controversial - Lakoff is very not.  In fact it's amazing how little negative reaction his thesis has had given how revolutionary it is - the main reason that I linked the reviews not the work.
I'll dig up the references on primate mathematics and counting - which should go in a separate section primate mathematics.
If the way that this material relates to numerology is not clear, I think I can fix it... at the expense of maybe insulting a few particle physicists and simulation modellers...
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I'm sure someone believes the bit about vibration, but I don't know who. I'd like to see some attribution. I don't think it applies to most forms of Qabalah, and I know it doesn't apply to Discordian numerology. --Dan
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The bit on the BMW 528i not selling well smacks of urban legend (specifically, it's nearly identical to the oft-repeated Chevy Nova legend).  I'm removing it unless someone can prove otherwise. -- goatasaur
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Yikes! What the heck is this Sun, Ketu, Bhraspati, etc... junk doing before the obligatory leading summary and why are they chapters (?!) and why do they have links *in the titles*? The author obviously didn't read the article guidelines where this is a no-no. A user called Hemant has apparently added those, and curiously enough they link to his home page. Advertising? I'll just delete them now. Jugalator 10:09, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-2005 

message: Before explaining the meaning of each number, the article states that 'numerologists believe'. But not all numerologists believe the same thing. The descriptions of the numbers needs to specify which tradition this is referring to, as Greek, Hebrew, Chinese etc, attribute different properties to the numbers. Ashmoo 01:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which tradition? 

message: Don't most numbering systems (not meaning numerological systems) begin with zero, or the notion of nothing as their starting point rather than one?
One is only measured against "not one", after all.
* Zero is actually quite a sophisticated concept... remember, there is no "zero" in Roman numerals. That doesn't mean the Romans ddn't understand the idea of nothing, it just means they didn't see it as a number. 172.216.101.50 00:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wait... "one" is not the beginning... 

message: Nice omission of the people that are thought to have invented numerology, the Israelites/Hebrews. Where's the number 15? Where's the significance of each number?
-It's not an ommision, its the description of each number. If you actually read what I wrote you would see that there is a description to each. 15 in numerology is actually 6 defined by one and 5. Numerologists don't use an infinite amount of definitions because they don't need to. They use base definitions, defining the basic levels of manifestation which all levels are believed to possess.And by the way no one knows who started it, its actually attributed to GREEK/ROMAN since pythagoras was greek but studied in babylon, egypt and later lived in rome. Just because modern day religion centers itself around the hebrew religion doesn't mean everything originated there, including many of their own beliefs.
Your talking about gematria, post there. Justin737 19:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Hebrews?! 

message: I have no problem with reporting on established concepts in numerology, but I'm going to have to slap some unferencedsect tags here. It's getting ridiculous. Melchoir 18:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced 

message: The numerology meant in article is specific, one of many others. The article is ought to be more general. — Gil Groe 16:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  There are other numerologies! 

message: I took out the necromancy reference, it is offensive to me and I’m sure any other numerologists who would’ve seen it. Technically the tense in which it was used was correct, but I could also group Catholicism with Satanism as both being religions.
I teach numerology and have studied the art for quite a few years, I don’t want to write your definition of numerology, but I would like for you to know how many places are so badly misguided/incorrect. I might however change it eventually if you haven’t so that it is in a median of explaining numerology as an art system and your understanding, so as not to have a biased account which misguides all who read this article.
Numerology doesn’t just describe physical things and actions, its been used as a device for understanding religion and humanity as long as it has been around, that’s kind of why it’s used in the occult, its not just a tool for playing with lives.
“Numbers 0 to 10 are used in present-day numerology to determine character analysis and predict upcoming trends. Other numbers are thought to carry vibrational influences which must also be taken into consideration, as must also the connection of astrology, numbers, and locational addresses, e.g. "Seven Star Road."”-------this ridiculous on a few levels…. One: all numbers are considered vibrations that describe separate manifestations of “energy”, or whatever you wish to call them, upon their level at their point of manifestation (such as, 1 becomes 2 in its dual aspect, or 2 accumulates into 3 upon a new step of manifestation) 22 is considered a manifestation with the base of 4 (this is the reason for breaking down a number, it shows its base influence) 23 is that of 5 (23/5) etc. the only reason you will hear more definitions for 0 through ten is because why teach people the definition of every number to infinity when you can teach the base numbers which are repeated throughout all numbers. Numbers are used to define everything, you don’t pick and choose which section defines what, they all define everything. Also, it is so rare that you will find a professional numerologist that uses things such as streets to define anything I don’t know where you would’ve gotten this except someone maybe sighting possibilities in numerology. Last in this section, astrology has its connections to numerology, but you don’t use astrology in numerology at all… or that would be an astrological reading, it’s a different subject altogether.
The numbering system here needs a huge change. To say that those are the meanings of numbers is going to confuse any person who doesn’t know anything about numerology (which is why people would be looking here in the first place), and it is so biased it is almost cruel to give one number system that isn’t even widely used and claim it to be numerology. First and foremost, numerologists don’t abide by certain rules or laws in the structure of numerology, which is why it is an art and will never be a science. But if you are going to go ahead and give a list of number definitions please at least inform people there are other explanations and belief systems. I will include the simple definitions I was first given:
0.      Nothing and everything
1.	Individuality
2.	union
3.	Communication/interaction
4.	Creation
5.	Action
6.	Reaction/responsibility
7.	Thought
8.	Power
9.	Completion
10.	Rebirth
From this follows Master numbers (starting with 11 and ending with 44) which are higher vibrations of lesser bases which are unstable in nature… meaning 11/2 could be viewed as 1 defining itself, until it can not hold its higher form and reduces to 2. Each number definition following would be an accumulation of its numbers defining each other through the properties in which they interact.
The birth time is never ever used, that’s astrology.  The birth time has no relevance besides petty nonsense when it comes to numerology. Professional numerologists have all the information they need from the name and birth date.
How could numerology work to break down a name? an excerpt from my book (don’t use this specifically unless you have asked because I would only like to be quoted if I agree with your definition on this page, a paraphrase will be acceptable):
Psychology has proven that the surroundings at each stage of your life can easily dictate the condition of your psychological makeup.  This includes physical surroundings, emotional interactions, speech patterns in those that you interact with, and/or any particular occurrence that may affect you in anyway whatsoever.  Showing that a large part of your makeup as a human being is created not by you but by the events that affect you, the chain of events that is created by your reaction to each situation is what is known as your personality, or personality traits.
The obvious variable that is in contact with someone at the earliest stages and throughout most of life is that of the parents.  So why is it so inconceivable that an accurate description of yourself can be described through the name given to you at birth by those who are surrounding you throughout most of your life?  The name given to you was decided by your parents based on its properties of definition and sound.  So therefore the definition of your name can easily show you how your parents hope to raise you.  Even more so, the name given to you must have the correct sound, which means the vibrational tone must be something to which the namers subconscious mind must be pleased with, or give an accurate description of what they hope for you to become.  Numerology breaks down these vibrational tones into separate meanings which joined create one meaning; the description of what is you.  This description depicts the outside influences in which you deal with in everyday life.
Your birthday is the number which describes your core meaning, the person you are before and throughout the outside influences.  This is the meaning which responds to the influences or attacks on your psyche.  Depending on your vibrational core it reflects each environmental change with its new vibration, and each of these vibrations accumulates to create your actions or "psyche."  All of your actions from day one are an accumulation of the influences that have attacked your core and the responses in which it has reacted with, each adding upon itself create your everyday life.  There is no possibility of change without your core influences originally being designed for this change, any change that should happen would be an occurrence of the original vibration attempting to manipulate the attacking vibrations.
And finally, the days of the week? Are you serious? Numerology is about numbers, not planets! So why use astrology definitions in a numerology page.
:I hope I've helped; see the "Purge" explanation below. Melchoir 22:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  whoever wrote the article READ ME!!! 

message: That needs changing ASAP.
:Done, and more. Melchoir 22:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "but in my opinion it is Aquarius." 

message: I am removing a great deal of original research and unverifiable material from the article, prompted by 70.190.212.246's comments above and the fact that the article has gone three months with cleanup tags and no improvement in sight. I do not wish to marginalize the actual practice of numerology; rather, parts of the article are laden with so much speculation and opinion that they misinform and give numerology a bad name. Melchoir 22:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purge 

message: Who wrote this junk?  Quotes out of context, lots of red to articles that haven't been created (because they aren't really encyclopedic,) mangled criticisms, ...  Lakhoff and Nunez have made strong arguments within their (constrained) theses but I think even they would want to dissociate themselves from this kind of bad interpretation.
"The only mathematics that we know is the mathematics that our brain allows us to know."  That's a vacuous tautology.  Of course it's true.  What's more interesting in the Lakhoff/ Nunez book is the recognition of the importance of metaphor, the critique of mathemetician's emphasis on the concept of closure, the critique of the principle of induction, ...
Unless anyone objects within a couple of days I'll trim this section down quite a bit.  I'm not convinced that WMCF should be mentioned here but I think I can take out the bad.  --M a s 23:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Postmodern Critique 

message: "Numerological divination" is highly biased, and off base in many assumptions towards numerology. I would rewrite it, but being a numerologist I would probably accidentally end up biased in the other direction. Numerologists do disagree on some tools of numerology, but they agree on numerology. Scientists will disagree on different points, but that doesn't mean science is not a unified study.
Advanced numerologists (ones who actually study it, its like the difference between a scientist in high school and one in the profession) believe that numerology is the belief that existence is created in cycles of manifestation. These levels of manifestation are represented by numbers, much in the same way 1 can be represented by an apple. Not 3 different styles of belief, one belief in creative cycles that are bound to their cyclic laws. The same way science believes existence is bound to laws, numerologists believe it is. They just take this into a "metaphysical" step to bring these natures to define god and humans based off of accumulative vibrations of the creative cycles.
If you want to define something which isn't numerology, figure out what it is and post it... if we're talking about numerology, then figure out what you are talking about before you claim it to be something else. I'm the first to admit it isn't a science, and since it is an art, it isn't replicable in the scientific process... but it's mainly used today in the same fashion as psychiatry, which isn't a science either. Numerology is used as holistic metaphysical psychiatry and relationship counseling. So be careful how much you make it look bad in comparisson to how much you DEFINE WHAT IT IS.
I went ahead and removed all that I saw as opinionated rather than definitive, and all gematria definitions. Justin737 16:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  There's more work to be done 

message: look people. This isn't a loose termed random thing here for anyone to hack out when they think they are right. This is a profeesion and religious study. Just because you've read about gemetria doesn't mean numerology is gemetria. As I said there is a difference. 
By taking the base meanings out and adding a bunch of stupid shit you are destroying the name of numerology. Numerology isn't based around 4 fucking chapters in the bible, it isn't based around the number 15. 
YOU ARE WRITING DEFINITIONS IN GEMATRIA... FUCKING STOP, would you describe the term christianity through the view of the roman catholics because thats the widest belief? If so then you wouldn't be describing christianity, you'd be describing catholicism a type of christianity... SO STOP DESCRIBING NUMEROLOGY THROUGH GEMETRIA.
LEARN WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE GIVING NUMEROLOGY A BULLSHIT DEFINITION. This is getting ridiculous, I not only gave my reasons but my credentials, I can list some fucking books you can read, but i doubt you read since you didn't evn read what I wrote.
Your personal beliefs aren't what define Numerology, so shut the fuck up if you don't know anything about numerology, and quit fucking up the page for people who come here and actually want to know the truth about the study and not your rendition of it. Quit giving it a bad name to people who don't know better. and go find out for yourself. 
Or I tell you what, I make $75 dollars an hour, you pay me my usual fee for every time i have to come clear the name of my belief and I'll be glad when to check up on it during the week.
I'm sorry if my comments are viewed as attacks by anyone, but by giving my reputation in the field a bad name through horrible definition, you are attacking me.
I've created an account with wikipedia because of this article, if you have anything to say to me then message me, I'm now user: Justin737 19:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  READ ME BEFORE EDITING 

message: A request, could someone more qualified than I, please write something about the Numerological (and related fields perhaps) meaning and significance of the number 36. I have posted various information I have gathered about it on the talk page from a number of different sources.
Number36 02:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The number 36 

message: I've added  to the article because of repeated claims that it does not give a correct account of numerology. Please, someone who is knowledgeable and has access to the literature, rewrite whatever you can and cite your sources. If necessary, any editor can delete unverified material at any time; you may want to exercise that right to get rid of the crap. Melchoir 17:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: I have removed a lot of the introductory paragraphs, which include barely comprehensible commentary that (I think, anyway) was about the development and history of the base-10 number system. There's still a ton of head-scratching-ly bad writing in this article. - DavidWBrooks 20:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed 

message: Hi David,
Why did you remove the link to my Names Numerology Page. So many people came there and said what a great tool it was, I think it's quite worthy of a link, being unique. My algorithms were extracted based on my readings of the Numerology page. - www.birthvillage.com/babyname.php
I would like this link re-analyzed for usefullness.
: Certainly; any wikipedia edit can (and should be!) re-analyzed by others, and undone or changed if that's the feeling of those involved. 
: I removed several numerology calculators/explainers, mostly because they didn't agree with each other (if numerology provides objective insight, why do different calculators get different answers for the same word?). Worse, they didn't explain how they got their answers: It was just poof! magic answer.
: By the way, "unique" isn't necessarily a good thing when applying practices that are 3000+ years old - a "unique" math calculator that got different answers than other calculators wouldn't be a good thing to have! - DavidWBrooks 18:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal Of Name Numerology Links 

message: May I relink the tool now?
: Please sign your posts, so other editors can follow the conversation better! Use four tildes, so the time/date stamp is included; as you can see from reading above, it's very confusing otherwise.
: Another reason to remove your calculator is that such calculators are quite numerous online: There are seven in the first 10 Google hits for "numerology calculator"; I didn't even go to the second page. External links should only be added if they are hard to find or extremely unusual; otherwise, articles quickly turn into "link farms". This isn't any comment on the value of your work, just on its suitability as a wikipedia external link. (I've got a great blog, for example, but darned if I can think of a good reason to make it an external link from a wiki article!)
:As for removing the new age equivalences, this article had become a disorganized mess of factoids. In trying to organize it, I may have thrown out too much (I almost threw out the Chinese items, too). Perhaps it's time to create separate articles for all the various types of numerology, and link to them from here.  - DavidWBrooks 20:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  May I relink? 

message: (Yes, I know, I wrote "August" instead of "June.")
So, I put those definitions back in, rather than leaving the article lacking in that respect.  I suppose some supervision is required, so as to make sure that the definitions don't become some weird mess of direction from people adding in their own definitions... (sometimes even contradicting or tangential, from what I was seeing).
Anyhow, it was much easier (to say the least) than having, say, five different definitions that are out of context of what you're trying to read. 68.71.29.38 03:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reinstated Justin737's base definitions 

message: An anon IP has twice added a very long essay about Linda Goodman's Chaldean numerology. I have twice removed it, since it really overwhelms the article. If it's really important, it needs to be in a separate article. - DavidWBrooks 00:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caldean numerology 

message: I've restored Comparative Numerology removed by 86.61.39.27 on 1/23/07  for some unknown reason (originally an external link, later moved to "guides" now back to external links). --Aleph1 23:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for restoring it. It looks like a good cross-comparison between several systems, and it contains its references. Too bad it is not more exhaustive, but that by itself is no reason to remove it from this article. It also looks to me to be a good start to an article we could have here, something called Comparative numerology? I'm just dropping that off as a tip for someone who has more time than I do. Aleph1, do you want to take up the challenge? Cbdorsett 05:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Cb.  Good idea, I'd be glad to contribute ... --Aleph1 00:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link Removal 

message: 2 reccomendations I've not found on my quick scan of the talk pg.:
1) Divide numerology into esoteric/ exoteric.
2) article on comparative numerology in wikipedia
Thaddeus Slamp 06:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  my take on the heat of this article 

message: I reverted an edit and restored a "citation needed" tag in the following paragraph:
::"Scientific theories are sometimes labelled 'numerology' if their primary inspiration appears to be mathematical rather than scientific. This colloquial use of the word 'numerology' is quite common within the scientific community and it is mostly used to dismiss a theory as questionable science."
There are two assertions in this paragraph. They are both interesting and noteworthy. I would like to see them remain in Wikipedia rather than have them deleted for being unsupported. Editor Lucretius disagreed with my approach and left the following comments on my talk page (they belong here):
:Hi Cbdorsett! Here is the reason why I consider the citation tag silly:
:Firstly, what is in need of citation in that paragraph? Is it a) the fact that this particular use of the term 'numerology' is colloquial or b) the fact that some people use the term derogatively when commenting on a scientific theory? A citation tag is silly when it is unclear exactly what needs documentary support.
:Secondly, both of the above scruples are silly. Eminent scientists like Eddington, Weyl and Dirac were not really numerologists and therefore it is self-evident that 'numerology' has a colloquial significance when used to describe their ideas. Secondly, it is self-evident that a scientific theory is being rubbished when it is described as numerology (only numerologists would not consider this to be self-evident!). 
:Thirdly, if the citation tag is not removed somebody eventually will delete the paragraph or whatever part of the paragraph he/she thinks the citation tag refers to. Any tag that is obscure and unnecessary is an invitation to mischief. Therefore someone will delete the tag eventually, either because he/she will consider it silly or because he/she will edit the paragraph to satisfy the tag's silly requirements.
:I removed the tag for the above reasons. I supplied the OED quote as some kind of documentary support for the self-evident fact that 'numerology' in this article has colloquial significance. If  however you think the citation tag is necessary then you should provide the documentary support you think is required. I am sure it will be something quite silly and unnecessary  Lucretius 12:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes there is "some' reference "somewhere" - in fact you'll find it in the following paragraph (link to Stenger's argument). That is the paragraph where Eddington and the  others are said to be guilty of numerology. That is where the citation is necessary and that is where the documentary support belongs. It is not necessary in the first paragraph for the reasons I have already given. Lucretius 22:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced assertion in "Numerology" in science 

message: Hi. Isn't the movie Pi about numerology? The protagonist's friend even mentions that his obsession with Pi is no longer mathematics, but numerology. Perhaps this should be added to the popular culture section. I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned before now. Does anyone agree? Chrisdone 04:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pi 

message: It seems perhaps some review may be necessary, as the number definitions seem to have a tendency to morph into something markedly different from time to time.
Actually, is it possible for there to be something to that effect?  (I don't necessarily mean ensuring that the definitions don't change from what they were last year, but it's partly out of how they can vary so much -- even more so that, based purely on contents submitted in the article, there are no references to support what anyone can write to effectively replace any previous definitions (or adding to them, as the case may be).)
Note also potential differing ideas of numerology, such as (one) personality readings and things of that sort (Matthew Goodwin et al.), vs. (two) the stuff of noticing numbers in everyday life, among other things (digital clocks, for example).
(I can't comment on Underwood Dudley, Aleister Crowley, Pythagoras, etcetera -- not too familiar with them, but you probably get the idea.)
I'd hate to ask, especially like this, but, lastly, are there any standards of literature in this sort of thing (like Journeys Out of the Body or (say, in my opinion) Astral Dynamics is for astral projection, at least to pick two things from the late 20th-century onwards)?   (The stuff-of-noticing-numbers page lists a few books on Amazon, and presumably comes from those books, but even then I can only glean very little without actually reading them.)
75.85.19.154 05:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More review (or sthg) necessary? (disparity in definitions; possible "subclasses") 

message: Hello,, can someone please tell me what the word tern means in numerology???78.144.84.71 18:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "tern" at dictionary.com suggests, in games, "A set of three, especially a combination of three numbers that wins a lottery." (specifically any set of three, or perhaps the prize that may result). 75.85.19.154 08:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TERN 

message: This article is shocking... I came here wanting to find out more about the subject, but I'm left as ignorant as I started, having read through it. Someone with decent knowledge of the topic might want to consider a start-to-finish revamp. Seegoon (talk) 07:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poop 

message: "Different methods of calculation exist, including Chaldean, Pythagorean, Hebraic, Helyn Hitchcock's method, Phonetic, Japanese and Indian."
okaaaay....  what are they?  brain (talk) 01:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears it's not something anyone's yet prepared to add, at least for the moment.  (There partially exists the "anyone can write anything on the Internet" problem, wrt lack of citations.) Thoobsente (talk) 11:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Combined with the fact that this topic is so loosey-goosey that pinning down real definitions is quite hard - anybody in this self-publishing age can create their own definitions. It's not like there's an International Commission of Numerology to pin this stuff down. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Then what are they? 

message: my date of birth is 16/04/1985 and name is niranjan kumar  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.168.12.42 (talk) 14:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  want to change my name 

message: NJGW, could you specify the sections of the article that you believe need "extensive cleanup"? Thank you very much for your assistance with this matter. Psychic Expert (talk) 19:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I already removed some things that plainly didn't belong.  The discussion here is mostly about one or two specific types of numerology.  The lead doesn't even mention Chinese numerology or Kabbalah, and the "in other fields" section further exposes this bias.  This is meant to be a very general article with easy navigation to other related subjects.  A thorough rewrite may actually be in order.  I would suggest the two editors engaged in the present discussion take the initiative to work together in a sandbox on a new lead, and expand the article using the lead as an outline.  NJGW (talk) 20:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you again for your assistance. I am uninformed as to the interest of DavidWBrooks in collaborating on a new lead, but I agree that one should be done that better reflects the article content. I'm not confident that I can give the time for an entire article rewrite, but I can provide further content and references for some of the sections, including Chinese numerology. I can also add a section for "Criticism" to include the new link found by DavidWBrooks. If DavidWBrooks finds additional criticisms these can then be added to this section, and properly referenced in the lead. I can put a draft of the proposed lead and other changes in a sandbox, as you suggest, so that they might be reviewed before making any formal page edits. Psychic Expert (talk) 09:01, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean-up question

message: OK it's all crap but the notion that numerology extends beyond the Hebrew and Arabic languages is even more ridiculous. In Hebrew and Arabic each letter has an intrinsic numeric value and words are constructed using that as a basis. Odd and even numbered words convey the gender and suchlike. This is not the case with other languages and so any numerological sense is missing. This is a fairly basic fact and is mentioned nowhere in the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.19.6 (talk) 01:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, Pythagoras, who created the basis of the numerology most commonly used in the Western world today, was Greek. So I see no basis for your first statement. You may be correct that there is a correlation between Hebrew and Arabic letters and numbers, but it seems to me that that is probably going to a level of detail not intended by this general article. Psychic Expert (talk) 09:31, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More detailed nonsense 

message: When I added Dr. Silver's name to the psychics page, it was not met with much enthusiasm, and I'd like to explain why I think it contributes to the section: (Digit summary) before it's deleted. The sources in this article are limited, and it was a true prediction using the method, from a doctor in metaphysical philosophy. I think it lends to the piece.Spring12 (talk) 21:54, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is a place for a general explanation of the concept, not for examples of people who claim to be numerologists.  If every example of a numerologist was presented here, the article would be useless. Thus, giving an example of one person who does this one technique gives wp:UNDUE weight to this person and this technique.  This is especially true when the person and technique are presented in absolute terms, rather than in neutral language.  If this is a proponent digit summer, then they may be mentioned at the digit summing article, not here.  Also, please don't remove the general information about the technique.   NJGW (talk) 22:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding reference to Dr. Silver 

message: In it the author illustrates that the number five and related Quincunx pattern throughout art, nature and mysticism.
..illustrates that the number 5 what? Someone should fix this.
64.253.166.252 (talk) 23:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete sentence?