Talk:Seung-Hui Cho/Archive 6

message: Was there any information that the murderer was affected by news coverage of the massacre at No Gun Ri in Korea?  At just about the exact time the murderer started preparing his video statement, there was coverage in the news of American killing of civilian refugees at No Gun Ri in Korea during the Korean War.  The coverage in the news was of a memorandum that indicated that shooting civilians was a matter of policy by the U.S. Government.  The murderer was a Korean national.  The murderer in his statement adverts to a wrong to his "brothers and sisters."  No news article has discussed the possible connection.  It seems like a logical avenue of speculation, but has received absolutely no notice.64.4.228.175 15:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Speculation has no place on Wikipedia, especially when no news article discusses it. Phony Saint 15:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: No reliable news article has mentioned any connection between the two events, thus it is not notable, and putting it into the article would be speculation. Phony Saint 22:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was there any connection to news articles about the Bridge at No Gun Ri? 

message: The previous section on VA and federal gun law issues substantially misrepresented the New York Times article. The NYT piece says in effect that under federal law, a person is ineligible to purchase a firearm if he or she has been "adjudicated as a mental defective" (or involuntarily committed for treatment). Cho was clearly not involuntarily committed for treatment. 
There seems to be some doubt whether the magistrate's order constitutes a finding that Cho had been "adjudicated as a mental defective" since - as the piece points out - VA and federal law do not mesh. One of the agenda-driven academics cited in the NYT seem to think that this was the case, but the other interviewee does not say that, nor does the NYT itself pronounce on this issue. Further, the NYT does NOT say that reporting of mental health to the federal database is mandatory as a matter of law. Rewritten accordingly. WikiFlier 17:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mental Health and Firearms Legal Issues 

message: An alumnus (pl. alumni) according to the American Heritage Dictionary is "a male graduate or former student of a school, college, or university." http://www.bartleby.com/61/57/A0235700.html In addition, an alumna (pl. alumnae) is "a woman graduate or former student of a school, college, or university." http://www.bartleby.com/61/56/A0235600.htmlBnguyen 18:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be the subject of a sort of indirect edit war. Strictly speaking, he does meet the criteria of "alumnus" by virtue of his being a former student at Virginia Tech. I'm not necessarily in support of its inclusion, but the rationale for its exclusion needs to be something other than "He did not graduate", as is currently the case with Phydend's edit. -Etafly 19:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a problem. Apologies if I implied that you were the one who began it -- it has been ongoing, yours was simply the most recent reversion at the time. -Etafly 16:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seung-Hui Cho is a Category:Virginia Tech alumni 

message: Cho Hired an Escort Before Rampage:  http://abcnews.go.com/US/VATech/story?id=3071730&page=1
One wonders if had she performed "full service," this whole tragedy could have been averted.  Ah.
*Please try to refrain from speculative gossip. I'm not deleting this because the story might eventually find its way into the body of the article, though I'd question its encyclopedic merit. -Etafly 21:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this reference from abcnews should be included in Section 2.2, Relationship with Students, because that section mentions his failed attempts to meet girls and the so-called stalking incidents. The piece from abcnews is good enough at this time to merit a reference in that section. (Just like the comment elsewhere in the article, "although he had told others he was a business major" was deemed worthy of inclusion because it supposedly shows his state of mind and demeanor leading up to the shooting.) (Although personally, I think the business major part shouldn't be there.) This escort reference seems to support the failed relationship angle and his social clumsiness. All in my opinion. 71.121.135.67 05:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: More on that: here is another article which has some interesting quotes on the topic: "'It would be very odd now to find a serial murderer who is not fueled by pornography. Law enforcement records confirm that,' Reisman continued, adding that hundreds of such cases were alone documented by Vernon J. Geberth, Former Commander, NYPD, Bronx Homicide. 'In our current erototoxic environment certainly rapists, child molesters, thrill killers are fueled by pornography,' said Reisman. 'I would guarantee that a serious investigation would locate pornography among almost all if not all kid killers and serial killers.' According to Reisman, pornography is a common factor shared by mass murdering students in US schools." http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/apr/07042406.html 71.121.135.67 05:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Stop with these nuts blaming everything around us. Millions of people watch pornography and use escort service or pay hookers, yet it doesn't turn them into psycho killers. If anything, it could help them.--Svetovid 10:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Svetovid, nobody is blaming an escort service for turning him into a mass killer. The point is that his social isolation is reflected not just in his clumsy attempts in chasing female students, but also in his awkward use of the escort service as detailed in the article. In fact all of the documented idiosyncrasies in his behavior (writing on walls; violent plays; stalking; shunning roommates; escort services) should be included in the article because the article is about him as a person. When I suggest the above reference should be cited, it's not to blame his behavior on an outside influence, it's simply to show what he, the subject of this article, is all about. If it turns out he was addicted to collecting jelly beans, that should be included too, not as a way to blame jelly beans for what he did, but because this article is about Seung-Hui Cho. 71.121.135.67 10:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you will find that the shunning was the other way around. People stopped talking to Cho because of his odd behaviour, including clumsy attempts at overcoming his social isolation. After his first "stalking" case in Nov 2005 and particularly on the 13th Dec, people ignored him en masse. Only then did Cho’s essays and plays start to get violent, isolating him further. He didn’t realise he was pushing people away, because he was a socials illiterate. He was seen as odd but harmless before Nov 2005, and gave no trouble at all. I think it was a stupid feed back loop. The article's motive section should detail the timeline of his downfall, and without blame, it should illustrate the mechanism of this feed back loop. The escort was Cho's last attempt at being "normal", he failed. Some prostitutes provide a specialised service to people with mental and physical disabilities and in Holland, mind bogglingly, the disabled are allowed a prostitute paid by the State. -Diamonddavej 22:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: *OR is bad. Especially when it causes the occasional wikipedian to saw a limb off and move to Holland. I know I just considered it. -Etafly 23:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho hired an escort named Chastity Frye one month before rampage 

message: I'm tempted to removed :Category:South Korean writers. Yes, he wrote plays and stories but they were for an educational assignment. Nothing was every published (I don't think, at least not before death) so I don't think the "Writers" category is appropriate. I'm sure everybody wrote stories while in school and/or college so should be applies this category to every biographical article? If anybody disagrees, please explain to rationale as I am curious. If no objects, I will remove it.↔NMajdan•talk 16:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Writers typically refers to people who write for a living. Go ahead and remove it. Phony Saint 16:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they were removed but added back in due to an unrelated revert. So I removed them again. Phony Saint 16:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then there are cases like Van Gogh. Is a person who paints a painter if he makes little or no money from his paintings? Henry Adams, is definitely listed as a writer, but did he ever earn any money from his writing? Some people paint paintings for an academic class and later end up selling those paintings but does this mean that those paintings were not done by a "painter" since the original intent was as a class assignment? W.C. 16:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By "for a living," I meant occupation (which doesn't necessitate making money.) Regardless, it's not something Cho is known as. Phony Saint 16:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Writer category? 

message: There is a central piece of information which should be added at the top, in fact it should probably be the third sentence of the article: It was the deadliest mass shooting by an individual in United States history. References abound. Would one of the Wiki experts be good enough to add something along those lines? 71.121.135.67 08:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody else thinks this should be mentioned right up at the top?? I thought it was a no-brainer. What's the single-most important fact about Seung-Hui Cho from a historical perspective? It's that he is the individual who committed the largest mass-shooting in US history. Thoughts? 71.121.135.67 05:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I renamed this section Fact instead of Factoid to incorporate your input. Thank you. Since the most important fact related to Seung-Hui Cho is that he is the individual who committed the deadliest mass shooting in United States history, that fact belongs at the very top of the article. I propose the most logical spot is after the second sentence. 71.121.135.67 00:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important Fact Missing 

message: The WaPo did a little more digging into Cho's childhood. A picture of Cho in middle school is also featured in the article. Someone had apparently copied sent and this picture to the The Washington Post from his/her yearbook or WaPo researched the yearbook to find the picture. According to the article, neither Cho's picture nor name appeared in his high school yearbook.
Cho, D. & Gardner, A. (2007, April 24). An isolated boy in a world of strangers: Cho's behavior alarmed some who knew him; family "humbled by this darkness." The Washington Post. Retrieved on April 24, 2007. lwalt 03:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Information about childhood

message: Who else thinks that Cho's imaginary friends, Jelly and Spanky, were his euphemism for masturbation? "I'm in here with my girlfriend and we're making out." Cho said that Jelly and Spanky were imaginary, he knew they didn't exist. Nevertheless, his imaginary friends have been used by some to indicate that Cho was suffering from a delusion, including some qualified psychologists. Cho would have been deluded if he said, "I have a super model girlfriend called Jelly, you like to meet her?" I added to the article that Jelly and Spanky were not an indication of a delusional belief and it might have been Cho's euphemism for masturbation. Is this ok? -Diamonddavej 00:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's original research. Phony Saint 00:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I notice that this is in the wiki now. Has it been found in another source? If you want to keep it in, at least mark it as "speculated by wiki users." 68.42.17.202 01:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Speculated by wiki users" is not valid article material. I removed the statements. Phony Saint 02:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's agreed. I tried removing it myself but there was an edit conflict, someone else deleted it first. -Diamonddavej 02:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho's imaginary friends - Jelly and Spanky 

message: It's seems that Cho's hanja name is back in the article again. Now that the family has released a statement, is there any way to know for sure what hanja his name is? UnfriendlyFire 23:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hanja (again) 

message: I understand a lot of people have put a lot of hard work into determining that "Seung-Hui Cho" is the proper way to present his name (instead of "Cho Seung-Hui") but now that it's sorted out, does that section really need to exist in the article? Ultimately nobody will care there was some initial confusion about how to print his name. 71.121.135.67 07:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think its necessary. But, that's one opinion and my POV. The naming custom of people from a particular country is really out of scope for this article. lwalt 13:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with you 100% on this Lwalt (on this and some comments you made below).  I'm all for the deletion of this section, as well as the psychological speculation on the page. Bueller 007 15:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Disagree, for now, at least.  Give it a month or so for people to get used to this order of names.  (I still have a kneejerk reaction of "it's backwards!" when I see the given-name-first order.)  After that, maybe get rid of it.  We probably could trim it down quite a bit, though.  Rdfox 76 10:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with the previous comment by Rdfox.  I don't think there's a rush to take this out, and the initial confusion about his name is still fresh so I think having a section clarifying that is useful.  There's a good argument that it should ultimately be deleted, but one could also argue that it should ultimately stay.  It's a mildly interesting detail to the overall story, in particular because of the controversy it created among some Korean-Americans/Asian-Americans when media outlets did not use the Westernized version of his name.  I'm almost certain when books are written in the future about the VT massacre that this aspect of the media coverage of the story will be discussed.  Thus I would probably lean toward keeping it in the end, but if this article is getting too long (which is certainly possible) the name section should probably be the first to go.--Bigtimepeace | talk |  contribs 06:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree. Ideal footnote issue. Ronnotel 17:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is "Name" section necessary? 

message: The news reported yesterday that the package to NBC was sent before the shootings, not in between. If anyone would find a source (they are out there), then it can be changed. Just a heads up.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.177.107.41 (talk) 06:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What news report are you looking at? According to most news reports that I know of, the first shooting occurred around 7:15 a.m. ET and the second one occurred about 9:45 a.m on the same morning. The label on the USPS Express Mail label shows that the Cho's package was accepted for mailing at 9:01 a.m. ET that same day. Therefore, the package was accepted for mailing by the U.S. Post Office between the first and second shootings, not before the first shooting. lwalt 06:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could also confirm this by pulling out some NBC Nightly News videos that I record once in a while, but on the day of the shooting, I decided to record it. If you would like more verification, please reply to this Talk section. Neil the Cellist 14:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pack sent before shooting. 

message: Although "Ismail ax" is currently redirecting to this page, the article contains no mention of these words being written on his arm during the crime. Ideas for where and how we should note that? Or is it really not notable (in which case the redirects should probably be deleted)? Matt Gies 06:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: CNN did a report on it. Search CNN for Ismail ax, there should be an article there. Add that content into the article and cite CNN. 64.236.245.243 13:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ismail Ax 

message: Several readings and a few more fully realized versions of Richard McBeef began appearing on Youtube within twentyfour hours of the shooting and during the following weeks. Here is an example of one.
Richard McBeef (act:1 scene:1) REEL ONE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCzvFNPkHY4
Richard McBeef (act:1 scene:1 REEL TWO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coScLmOWW1s —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Renecalvo (talk • contribs) 20:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That fact is not really relevant to the article; and is also self-promotion on your part, I should point out. Matt Gies 21:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: How about the second piece, "Mr.Brownstone" ? It's even more hitting. Merewyn 22:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Productions of Richard McBeef 

message: According to "early reports", it seems he was obssessed with a classmate Emily Hilscher and was furious after his romantic advances were denied. (Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho_Seung-hui) (thought ): Being a lonely individual(see below for description on it), it would appear that he actually reached out to one girl in hopes of love
I can't add this because I'm not registered, but this article ("http://abcnews.go.com/US/VATech/story?id=3071730&page=2") states that there are email records that Cho and Emily Hilscher were at least acquainted. This is contrary to this wiki article suggesting that Cho and Emily had never met.68.42.17.202 01:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the article has been modified since you linked to it but I can't find the place where it says they were acquainted. It simply says that all e-mail records involving either of them were seized. Also even if they had exchanged e-mails, this doesn't mean they'd met. Many people exchanged e-mails without ever having meet. People even exchange intimate e-mails without ever having met... Nil Einne 16:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cho may have sought out one or both of the girls he stalked in Nov-Dec 2005. In particular, the girl he last stalked on the Tuesday, 13th Dec 2005, her complaint led to threats of suicide and a stay in a mental heath clinic; now that’s a grudge. -Diamonddavej 07:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship problem 

message: Check the works of Cho's teacher Nikki Giovanni, , especially the poem Can you kill a nigger, it occurs that actually Cho's plays were not much more cruel or shocking than those of his teacher. Let's compare Giovanni's words Can you shoot straight and Fire for good measure Can you splatter their brains in the street Can you kill them    with the Cho's plays. 
Additionally, the horror books Cho were selling out on eBay, were required for another lecture at Virginia Tech. So, writing horrorful pieces was actually fitting the style of teaching in this school. Hence, the context of the lessons and context of the style of writings of Giovanni must be mentionned to the article.   Merewyn 22:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is about Seung-hui Cho -- not about Nikki Giovanni. Her role in Cho's story is that Cho presented problems in her class with the work and with other students, in addition to her referral to the VT school administration because of Cho's disrespect of her class. lwalt 22:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I meant that we cannot judge in the article the writings of Cho as macabre ect. WITHOUT taking a larger look at the style of teaching at VT, and especially his direct teacher's style. Remember that the words out of context, without social background, are always the words misunderstood. Merewyn 23:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Having read the poem you quoted from, I agree. This is relevant. And the thing about the horror books, 100% relevant - definitely add that info.—greenrd 12:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Creative writings" lessons on Virginia Tech 

message: Does anybody else feel like "The Name" section should be somewhere near the top? It seems out of place in the closing paragraph. --132.69.234.73 08:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name section too low 

message: The article says that On February 2, 2007, Cho purchased his first handgun, while the sources say that he bought it on Februar 9. Merewyn 08:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. autocratique  ✩  13:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistype error? 

message: The only connection between Cho and Emily Hilscher we know so far seems to be that they had both practiced at some shooting range. Does anyone know whether they went to the same range?
I thought that was Emily and her boyfriend? Pzychotix 19:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shooting Range 

message: Remarks that parents were not identified or spoken to press were also removed, why a ban on this observation? One report of a Korean association spokesman says he is familiar with people who know the parents, who were under distress. Does anyone know why the press has chosen not to identify the parents?
:Its not the press. The family is under protection by law. See this.
::The article says they are under protection of law enforcement which means they are being protected from physical attack. They are still free to talk to the press and the the CNN article quotes from a statement they released. I don't believe there is a law that protects their identity but there is no reason to mention it. --Gbleem 16:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parents 

message: Hi. The article used to say that because this is a Korean name, the surname comes first. However, the notice is now gone, and the name now comes last. I suppose this has been discussed previously, but why is it changed this way when the article first purposely said otherwise? Also, is there a link to this debate, if it has been disscussed? I again didn't really have time to read all of the archives. Please explain why this happened, the repeated changing of the placement of surname. Thanks. – AstroHurricane001(Talk+Contribs+Ubx)(+sign here+How's my editing?) 21:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a vote, and we changed the policy because that's what AP and the rest of the media did (after there was proof that this was Cho's preferred method of writing it).  Bueller 007 04:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming 

message: Hi. I discovered repeated sentences in the article. Compare this paragraph: During a New Year's telephone call in 2006, Cho's mother told the elderly aunt that Cho might have autism, a developmental disability marked by profound social isolation and delayed speech acquisition.[13][14] No autism diagnosis could be verified with Cho's parents, and no records or other evidence have surfaced to indicate such a diagnosis was made or relied upon by U.S. school authorities.[15] Cho's relatives thought that he was mute or even mentally ill.[16] According to Cho's uncle, Cho "didn’t say much and didn't mix with other children."[16], from "Behaviour as a young child", with this: In a New Year's call in 2006, Cho's parents told the elderly aunt that he might have autism, a developmental disability marked by profound social isolation and delayed speech acquisition.[13][53] However, no autism diagnosis could be verified with Cho's parents, and no records or other evidence have surfaced to indicate such a diagnosis was ever made, let alone relied upon, by U.S. school authorities.[54], from "phychiatric evaluation". One part of the first mention is clearly copied into the second one, so it should be removed. I didn't do so because it may be seen as removal of info, and because they may have different citations. Please do what you can to fix it if possible. Thanks. – AstroHurricane001(Talk+Contribs+Ubx)(+sign here+How's my editing?) 22:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be due to me as per Talk:Seung-Hui Cho#Movement of autism statement. I initially moved the paragraph further down the article, someone disagreed and put back the paragraph in its original spot, creating two paragraphs. I removed the second one. Phony Saint 03:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  repeated sentences 

message: I found from someone else's post a link to a site stating that Cho did stay a few days at a private facility in December 2005.  I'm not sure how to verify this as I've not seen or heard this anywhere else.  If this was true, wouldn't it had made a difference in Cho being able to get a gun?  I'm not sure if wikipedia would allow this to be put in if it cannot be verified elsewhere, but I thought I'd pass it on if it could be useful.
www.sptimes.com/2007/04/19/Worldandnation/Cho_had_history_with_.shtml
-fmp
207.119.2.72 02:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cho's stay at private facility 

message: You should reference this fact in the Cho article:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04292007/tv/did_dateline_push_cho_too_far__tv_phil_mushnick.htm
:Complete speculation. Nothing says that Cho watched Dateline. Phony Saint 04:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, to be fair, there's a TON of useless speculation in the article at present.  We still have that stupid picture of Oldboy in there. Bueller 007 12:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New piece of information 

message: Anyone else think this link http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/reportage/article1678526.ece is out of place here?  Seems like lots of speculation and judgemental armchair diagnosis.  Plenty of that available in the media, but it doesn't add anything factual. Chromaone 20:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree. It sounded very poor. Have a look at this link  by Prof. Paul T. P. Wong, who gives both a cultural and psychological perspective. -Diamonddavej 22:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please get rid of this stupid link in an attempt to sell newspapers!141.155.160.152
While the Wong article lacks the sensational tone of the Times article, I don't think it belongs here either.  It is not a big improvement that he is able to discern anger, hate, sadness and loneliness all from one college ID photo.  Any attempt to diagnose Cho based on the meager data publicly available today is speculation. Chromaone 02:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I removed both of those links. Linking to speculations is almost as bad as speculating ourselves. Phony Saint 04:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notoriety Beats Anonymity link? 

message: Does anyone else think archiving anything older than 24 hours is somewhat excessive? I would think a minimum 72 hours would be much more appropriate. 24 hours barely allows a discussion to get started before it's in the archives, in my opinion. Thoughts? Ikilled007 16:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur, especially since the rate of discussion (and thus, the danger of the page becoming unmanageably long) has so markedly fallen. Matt Gies 02:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the configuration settings up top.  Is that all that has to be done? --BigDT 04:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thoughts on the Archiving Bot 

message: Why was the naming/name section deleted?  Many Americans were confused about the Asian way of putting the surname last.  I thought it was well documented and very informative.  Why was it removed?  Is it because the article was getting too long again?  Perhaps, the article length issue may be discussed to allow articles to be a bit longer.  I hope the editors may consider reinstating the naming section. Cherylyoung 15:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had moved the info (well, the essential part of it), to a footnote, while someone else has now changed the format to that a reference, which is not what it is, and moreover, a format in which the info is hidden to the casual reader.  I suggest moving back to a footnote for this.--Pharos 23:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming 

message: Please keep image use within WP:NONFREE, which says that use of nonfree images should be kept to a minimum and details the circumstances under which they may be used.  --Minderbinder 14:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no violation of policy here and the images are crucial to the article. You'd have to have bias against having a scholarly article on this subject to want them gone. Ikilled007 17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The consensus right now is that the images are appropriate and important to the article. Do not remove them. Malamockq 17:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Is there any source that has reported on how Cho acted in elementary school? There's a curious time gap between the accounts of him as a young child and as a high school student. —Resurgent insurgent 2007-04-22 13:02Z
::According to a friend, he was relatively popular and not hated.  She claims "she only has good memories."  It seems in Middle School his bullying began.  Middle School can be much more alienating.  -KS —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.230.184.39 (talk) 03:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Behaviour in elementary school? 

message: Is there any information about his sexual orientation?--Jerrypp772000 23:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He reportedly spent time with a female "escort" prior to the shootings.  He was also accused of stalking female classmates and taking photographs of them underneath their desks.   Italiavivi 23:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I was just curious.--Jerrypp772000 00:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is quite obvious that he was straight -KS —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.230.184.39 (talk) 03:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I added the escort hiring to the main section under "pre-shooting behavior". Now of course, the tabloids claim he's secretly gay. :-P  --Kschang77 15:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see that someone decided that it should renamed "Female Escort Encounter". While I agree with the title, I was hoping that someone will dig up some MORE of his strange behavior before the shooting and group it under that heading. Oh well. :P -- Kschang77 21:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual Orientation? 

message: Dr. Michael Wellner is properly spelled with only one L. The correct spelling is "Welner". Editor, please fix.
::. I googled the doctor's name and found both spellings. Looks like the news media spelled his name with "LL" and that's how the spelling in the article was picked up. Dr. Welner's profile is online, and I found the spelling with only one L. lwalt 21:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo Mispelling in the Article 

message: I thought it was Cho Seung-Hui, not Seung-Hui Cho. I also heard CNN say it was "Cho Sung Lee", but that seems to be an obvious misunderstanding. Explanation? - Two-Sixteen.11.222.21 17:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure where CNN got their name, but in East Asia the surname comes first in someone's name (or at least in non-Westernized countries) but when he immigrated he may have Americanized his name. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Working for Him (talk • contribs) 22:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  His name 

message: I noticed that Cho's hanja is back in the article again. I did some digging and his Korean article lists his Hanja from a Chinese source. Can anyone verify that because as I recall when his name first came out, everyone was guessing his hanja. UnfriendlyFire 02:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hanja (again) 

message: I would just change the page, but this is one of those pages that is protected (for good reason).
As a VT student who lived in the exact suite in Harper last year that Cho lived in this year, there is
a minor flaw I'd like to see fixed by someone who has access.
The line reads 'Andy Koch and John Eide, students who also shared a room with Cho at Harper Hall'. Andy and John
were Cho's roomates in 2005-2006 in Cochrane Hall, not Harper.
Thanks.
::. Thanks for pointing out the error. lwalt 21:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technical gripe 

message: I believe, based on my clinical experience, that Seung-Hui Cho was a stutterer and that a great deal of his anti-social behavior was based upon not revealing the fact that he was a stutterer.  It has been reported that Cho, when asked by one of his teachers to recite something, did it by whispering, a manner of speaking commonly used by stutters to deal with their stuttering.  In the wikipedia citation of Cho, it is mentionned that, when forced by another teacher to recite in class, he resorted to a very low pitch voice and spoke as if there was something in his mouth (another technique sometimes used by stutters to deal with their stuttering).  It has also been mentionned that Cho would sometimes pause a long time before responding - again a tactic used by stutterers (it has been called clinically, Time Out). I read somewhere that he stuttered as a child but apparently outgrew it. I would submit that he did not, but simply turned to anti-social mutism to deal with his problem.  Now you may disagree with this analysis becuase you viewed the tape of his speaking and there appeared to be no sign of stuttering.  I would point out that this tape was made by Cho when he was alone and it is well documented that stutterers do not stutter when they speak out loud alone.  I might further point out that stutteres often do not stutter when they are angry or under some extreme emotional stress - both also present when he made his video tapes.  Many stutterers remain aloof, alone, misunderstood, rather than reveal the fact that they stutter.  It is my contention that Cho's hidden stuttering fits all the facts described and that it has been completely missed because most people are simply unaware of the above factual information.Orthophonist 13:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Get a blog.  This is not the place for speculation or original research. Bueller 007 13:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bueller, please, no biting. Orthophonist, I would agree that WP is not the place for original ideas, as the above appears to be. Although describing Cho as a stutterer might be appropriate if it can attributed to a reliable source. Good luck. Ronnotel 00:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stuttering 

message: This section seems like undue weight to me. That Cho may or may not have been a little aggressive for his lap dance is notable? Posssssibly worth a mention, but not an entire section. I'd like remove entirely - it seems more like tittilation than substance. Anyone else agree? Ronnotel 21:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Female escort encounter 

message: Do we really need to describe how they work in this article? If anybody really wanted to know they'd go to hollow point bullets. The trauma center director's description of "like a flower" isn't critical to understanding and is a bit on the sensationalist side. Phony Saint 01:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still disagree with needing a description of how hollow points cause more damage. That they cause more damage to flesh is somewhat informative; how they deal more damage is unnecessary when we can link to the article on hollow points. Phony Saint 18:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Look at the first sentence, the thesis sentence, of "hollow point bullets" - that does NOT say "Hollow point bullets cause more damage than other bullets" - Because the thesis statement of the article says X, the statement about hollow point statement in this article should state X too. WhisperToMe 18:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  "A hollow point is a bullet that has a pit, or hollowed out shape, in its tip, generally intended to cause the bullet to expand upon entering a target in order to decrease penetration and disrupt more tissue as it" - This is the very first sentence within the article - We can easily convey that here. The "juicy details" which the user is to see if he or she wants more knowledge about do not have to be conveyed here, but, come on, this is the thesis statement. WhisperToMe 19:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Phony Saint - borders on undue weight. Ronnotel 18:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ronnotel, I fail to see how it borders on Undue Weight. Let's look at that: "To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute." - The sentence in question is a factual statement about a bullet that can cause damage, not a specific point of view in a debate. WhisperToMe 18:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I cited WP:UNDUE because I believe the use of an emotive phrase such as causing pieces of the bullet to spread into petals "like a flower,", can be interpreted as injecting a pro-gun control POV into the paragraph. I'm neither pro- nor anti-gun control, I just think this description unnecessarily distracts the reader from the paragraph's main point. Ronnotel 19:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Here's the relevant sentence from WP:UNDUE: An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. (bold emphasis mine) Ronnotel 19:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we can change the statement to "by causing the bullet to expand upon entering the body" WhisperToMe 19:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Sounds better. Ronnotel 19:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Phony Saint 19:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollow point bullets information 

message: I liked the article better when it started off with "Seung-Hui Cho was a mass murderer who killed 32 people..."   instead of "Seung-Hui Cho was a university student..."
I don't think he is primarily known for being a university student. It's just more accurate to say he's a mass murderer.  Identifying someone necessarily by their primary vocation is a bit misleading -- people should be identified by what they're known for.  
By analogy, say there's an article about a world-renowned chess player.  It doesn't start off with "So-and-so is a computer programmer...", it starts off with "So-and-so is a chess champion...".
24.80.117.217 06:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Mass murderer who killed 32 people" is redundant; it's already stated in the first sentence that he kills 32 people in an incident called a massacre, do we really need to reinforce it by calling him a mass murderer? Phony Saint 14:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it were redundant, it would be saying the same thing twice.  But the phrase "...who killed 32 people" clearly adds more detail to the initial term (i.e. 'how many did he kill').  Not all mass murderers have killed 32 people, so to say that Seung-Hui Cho did is not redundant. 24.80.117.217 02:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone who commits a massacre or mass murder is a mass murderer. We could go with "perpetrator of the Virginia Tech massacre, in which he killed 32 people and wounded 25 others" or something similar. Phony Saint 04:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That statement wasn't there when I edited the lead a day ago. It should go as it's not critical or identifying information about him, and his psychiatric problems were vaguely defined anyway. Phony Saint 04:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll wait another day to see whether the original editor can add some rationale for adding the sentence here (which really seems misplaced in the intro paragraph) before removing it. lwalt 20:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That's speculation and doesn't belong in the article without reliable sources. [[User:Phony 
Saint|Phony Saint]] 17:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Given the IM log, which relates to the last stalking incident, it confirms reports that Koch encouraged the female student to complain; that she was initially unconcerned and she didn't find Cho frightening until Koch told her about him. Also, what did she mean by "He called me" - a phone call? So it was not just the message on her door. Oh, so "SpankyJelly" was Cho's instant messaging handle. -Diamonddavej 14:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening paragraph 

message: The statement "He was officially declared to be mentally ill and had serious psychological problems according to authorities" is vague. To my knowledge, no report has been released to provide information about an "official" mental health diagnosis. If this sentence stays in the intro paragraph, the summary sentence needs to be more a bit more specific, with a reference or references to support the statement. For example:
*"Declared" -- Who declared what was going on with Cho? In other words, who "officially" declared Cho mentally ill, since mental illness was mentioned in the statement? 
*"Authorities" - Are we referring to the police, professors at VT, the pychologist/psychiatrist or other mental health professional who performed the cursory mental health evaluation that resulted from the stalking incident, among other things?
*"Mentally ill" - Conditions too n
umerous to name here -- was it depression, schizophrenia, bipolar illness?
*"Serious psychological problems" - Is this referring to his antisocial behavior? If not, then what? lwalt 04:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That statement wasn't there when I edited the lead a day ago. It should go as it's not critical or identifying information about him, and his psychiatric problems were vaguely defined anyway. Phony Saint 04:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll wait another day to see whether the original editor can add some rationale for adding the sentence here (which really seems misplaced in the intro paragraph) before removing it. lwalt 20:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: That's speculation and doesn't belong in the article without reliable sources. [[User:Phony 
Saint|Phony Saint]] 17:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Given the IM log, which relates to the last stalking incident, it confirms reports that Koch encouraged the female student to complain; that she was initially unconcerned and she didn't find Cho frightening until Koch told her about him. Also, what did she mean by "He called me" - a phone call? So it was not just the message on her door. Oh, so "SpankyJelly" was Cho's instant messaging handle. -Diamonddavej 14:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Last sentence in opening paragraph

message: I took out the protection. If you think it is necessary, put it back in, I dont mind, but I think that Cho deserves whatever is said about him.All.ya.little.triksters 07:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: I Passed the Good Article Nomination because it complied with the good article criteria. Flubeca (t) 23:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering the length of the main prose, the lead can be substantially expanded. Also, how stable is this mess? -- Phoenix2 (talk, review) 16:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Article 

message: This is not supported by the listed reference.  I've only seen it mentioned here.  Anyone see this anywhere else? Chromaone 09:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right...there's nothing at the indicated source about house arrest. I removed the sentence from the article. lwalt 12:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  House Arrest? 

message: Fervent belief can motivate an individual to do acts (helpful or horrendous) that he/she would otherwise avoid doing.  Excerpts from the manifesto indicate several religious references, and it is very significant that the killer was found with a religious reference written on his body that relates to a story which can easily be construed as symbolic of his actions.  Releasing the complete contents of the manifesto might reveal more information about his religious zeal and its impact on his motivation.  This might be precisely why it has not been released.
His infobox says he's Christian, but the source only indicates that his parents are Christian, and that he was raised in the religion. Given his comments about Jesus Christ, isn't it safe to assume he is a lapsed Christian, perhaps an agnostic? Any sources/thoughts? . – John Stattic (talk) 05:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He didn't say anything against christianity in his videos. He compared himself to Jesus Christ, that's the most of it. I agree however, that assuming he is christian just because his parents were christian and he was raised christian, is dubious, but he didn't state anything that might lead one to assume otherwise. Malamockq 16:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Why even guess at his religion at this point?  Right now, the article says Agnostic, but do we really know for sure?  It seems that making any kind of guess as to what his religion was is original research. 75.40.225.228 03:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and have removed the reference completely.  In this Newsweek piece , his childhood pastor says that Cho could understand the Bible but he doubted that Cho believed the words.  Only in blogs does anybody try to claim that Cho was a Christian. For us to speculate on his personal religious identification would be original research. --BigDT 04:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember, he acknowledges the existence of Jesus Christ, and islamic figure Ishmael.  Since he is referencing two religions, he would be considered Agnostic.  However, it seems he was influenced by the Bible, and it seems he did in fact believe in God.  Christians can be violent too.  Let us not get our personal religious beliefs caught up in the truth about Cho.  -KS —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.230.184.39 (talk) 03:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Believing in God, even believing in God and the existence of Jesus Christ, doesn't make one a Christian. Muslims, Bahais, and some Hindus would also be "people who believe Christ existed and that there is a God." For that matter there are deists who believe Christ existed and, unlike Muslims, even believe he was crucified. Nothing Seung-Hui's shown to have said indicates, to me, that he thinks Jesus had any supernatural aspect of any kind or that Christ was even a perfect human being. In fact I'm pretty sure he was in conflict with his parents on religious matters. As for some Christians being bad, sure. There are even, undeniable, examples of serial-killers who were Christian. For example Dennis Rader.--T. Anthony 04:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "Christians can be violent too." Love it. On the subject at hand, I agree that calling him either Christian or Agnostic is original research. --132.69.234.73 12:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually I'm pretty sure the whole "Jesus loves crucifying me" thing is a misquote. I'm pretty sure Cho actually said "You just loved crucifying me." I've seen both versions in online articles, but the second one makes the most sense. Why would he call Jesus an inspiration to generations in comparison with himself and then call Jesus a sadist? Accusing the people he felt wronged him makes more sense and is more consistent with the other time he mentioned Jesus. Then again with the clumsy way he spoke it's not hard to see how it would be difficult to understand what he's saying. Abyssal leviathin 00:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree this category is wrong.  I've seen no evidence he was Christian.  Being raised in a Christian home and attending church with your family does not make you a Christian.  On the contrary, there is evidence that at least some Christians he hated.  In the NBC frame-grab from his printed text he railed against 'Christian Nazis.' Chromaone 19:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because he disliked some Christians doesn't mean he wasn't a member of the religion. For example, many people in mainstream churches can't stand fundamentalists.Abyssal leviathin 23:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, it now says that he was raised christian, no more can be known, no less is honest.  JeffBurdges 17:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian? 

message: I fail to see how this contributes to this article. Yes, Stephen King has critics - I'm not particularly fond of his writing myself - but that should be covered in Stephen King's article, not here. Phony Saint 01:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to mention that "Stephen King's ability to accurately judge creativity" is simply a matter of opinion and considered a POV by some in the media and literary world, anyway. Yes, the weight for Stephen King's critique should be minimized in the article to remove undue prominence. lwalt 09:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr. Brownstone was actually a pretty good premise for a play, by no means in its final version, the story is very creative. 122.46.167.24 05:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of [[Stephen King]]