Talk:Sexual harassment in education in the United States

message: I have a hard time believing that 14% of high school students have had sex with a teacher... somethings tells me 13.5% of those students just said they had for the heck of it. thats the problem with these tests, most people don't give a crap what the results are when their being tested so they just full it with crap. DurotarLord 04:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No way these numbers are correct

message: This article was created after a vote on the article "Academic seduction," (sexual relationships between students and teachers) requesting a title change that referred to the phenomena as abusive. See the old article talk page for the transcript of this.
The new article will retain almost all of the same information.  However, with the new title, I'll be restructuring it to have the subject of sexual relations between students and teachers as simply a sub-topic within the larger article of "Sexual harassment in education." The section on peer harassment will be expanded. Also, there will be as much global content as I can dig up.
Ultimately, this article will now be a sub-article of Sexual harassment, with the plan being to give it as much scope with as few redundancies as possible. (I want to keep the current references to sexual harassment in education that already exist on the main article, and expand on them in the new article.)
In addition, because this will really be a new article, I'm not going to transfer the Talk page content over to this Talk page.  Discussions should focus on the content of this article in it's new form.
Please give the article a few weeks to take shape before you all jump all over it. (grin)  Thanks!  Aine63 22:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. I am not going to create a re-direct from Academic seduction for a few days.  I will as soon as there is a more definitive "shape" to this article, and the "Student-on-student" harassment section is expanded--this is the most common form of sexual harassment in education. Aine63 23:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New article and plan

message: Redundant--these are already touched on in the main Sexual harassment article with a link to a web page with more in depth information. Aine63 22:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed "modi operandi"

message: I think that this is a very good article, in as much as it deals with sexual harrassment in education that takes place in developed, English-speaking countries. However, this topic is a rich one indeed, and this article would benefit from a discussion of the ways in which the issue is seen differently in in different countries and cultures. For example, while I am certainly no expert in the matter, I do know that in some countries student-teacher relationships in tertiary education is permitted, or at least tolerated. Of course, there are other issues to examine as well, but as I've said, I'm not a cross-cultural expert on this issue. --Zantastik talk 00:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great!  Feel free to discuss it if having sex with students means so much to you. Aine63 01:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aine63, incivility here isn't particularly helpful. Let me iterate: I am impressed with the work that you have done on this article: it is well-written, informative and neutral. A  tag is not an attack on an article; it merely serves to point out that an article is lacking in this particular way. After all, all articles, except perhaps featured ones, are works in progress. --Zantastik talk 08:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Globalise 

message: I hate to cause controversy on a touchy subject, no offense is intended, but from my personal opinion, the "The gender double standard" section seems a little POV. 
The gender double standard
There is a myth regarding the extent of the damage caused by women who sexually abuse or harass. In an interview about the rise of sexual abuse by female teachers, Dr. Jeff Brown, a psychologist who treats female sex offenders stated, "There is definitely a double standard.....The impact they have is significant on their victims and sometimes we don’t regard the impact in a similar way as we do men."
Maybe the quoted text, especially, from that section could benefit from some rewording, or an added argument on that subject in the opposite direction? I, personally, agree with what the quote says, but nevertheless, Wikipedia is meant to be NPOV.
Just my thoughts. Thanks.
--Evening Breeze 13:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I understand of the wikipedia policies, this doesn't violate NPOV because it is quoted in context, and attributed to an authoritative source. I'm not sure what you mean by "the quoted text... could benefit from some rewording." If you re-word a quote, it's not a quote.Firenech (talk) 03:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV in section? 

message: I have been adding material to the main article about the amount of girls that are being punished for sexually harassing boys at classes. In fact the problem is so wide spread it was actually discussed at the NUT conference (National Union of Teachers) in the UK who are going to be combatting I quote: 'This totally unacceptable behaviour'. For Student7's comments saying I have made this up is obsered. How dare you be so rude to me. --88.108.120.191 12:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Student7's comments

message: Just a note to explain why there is so much about SH by teachers in this article. If you read the history above, you will see that this article began as a way to salvage another article called "academic seduction" which was a completely made up topic, but which had some good information in it.  We voted to change the name, and make it a sub-article of the main sexual harassment article, get rid of the "crap," keep what was useful, and expand on all that.
That is also why there is such a big section on sexual relationships between teachers and students. Personally, I think it could be pared down.
Also, the effort to make the sections "global" makes them all longer, as does including all POVs. 
This is where it is now.  It greatly needs expansion, particularly in terms of sexual harassment in education in other countries (trends, laws, complaint processes, etc.), and on the issue of student-on-student harassment, which is the bigger discrimination problem in the U.S. education system (than sh by teachers), but I don't know about other countries.
I'm beginning the section on complaints (see note below), which is a huge issue because schools are notorious for either over-reacting to the problem, or ignoring it.  But it would be great if someone could pick up on the other sections and run with them.  
Please don't just complain about what is here or not here, or when your POV is not represented.  Take part and start making active, constructive contributions to the article. Koala06 (talk) 22:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Understanding where this article has come from

message: As promised, I'm beginning the section on complaints.  As education has one of the most abysmal records in dealing with this issue--they ignore serious problems almost as much as they over-react to minor problems--I'll be including different points of view, statistics on frequency of reports through the U.S. Department of Education (if I can find them), etc. 
I will also globalize it like I did the main Sexual harassment article by trying to include what I can dig up on how complaints are handled in other countries. This may be hard to find, and I can't translate, so if any other Wiki editors in other countries can lend a hand here, that would be greatly appreciated.
This will be a process, so please wait until I have included all this before you all "jump all over" what is there and what is missing. :) Koala06 (talk) 22:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Beginning section on complaints of SH in education

message: Okay, I'll start off. But I think that anyone who adds to this should be willing to work to make the changes or additions they are requesting--this does not include just deleting content.  Additions here should focus on CONTENT, not editor behavior
*content should not be deleted from this article because it might make teachers "look bad."
*there have been complaints about the tone and length of the harassment patterns section, but I've repeatedly invited those editors to rewrite the section to their satisfaction already, and they have refused to do so.
:actually, I agree that the patterns of harassment section could be less wordy.  It also needs to be paraphrased (otherwise I'm violating my own copyright LOL), so I will take that on--but I won't delete it
*This article is lop-sided and needs more about student-on-student sexual harassment, which is a bigger problem than sexual harassment by teachers
*There needs to be more information that contradicts or tells the "other side" of the issue (ie. when is the problem cultural, done out of ignorance, immaturity, miscommunication, too much regulation of behavior, etc.)  In the main sexual harassment article, I included a "Debates" section, and something like that would probably work here, too. Koala06 (talk) 04:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the above template didn't seem to work. I don't know why. Student7 (talk) 13:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Open issues

message: Since Koala06 has decided to talk to me again, I'll point this out here.  This section has been discussed.  Two people, Student7 and I, feel that it's unnecessary and weakens the article.  One person, Koala06, disagrees.  Since the consensus is that it should be removed, it should stay out of the article.  I've reposted it below in case any additional discussion is necessary, but because it's tangential, inappropriate in tone to an encyclopedia, and overlong (focusing too much on teacher abuse in an article that is already slanted that way despite the fact that peer to peer abuse is more common), I think that we've already had enough to agree to keep it out.  Eceresa (talk) 11:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I failed to mention it earlier but I also agree with Eceresa's comments on student on student harassment. I suppose it should be mentioned somewhere since this topic is so generic (won't find that kind of loophole in Roman Catholic sex abuse cases). But it seems to distract here. The issue is teacher on student. If the article needs to be forked so each can be discussed, fine. But there is little to substantiate student on student or student on teacher. Hard enough problem to get convictions with teacher on student. Almost impossible the other way. I will amend our requests to include this issue as well. Student7 (talk) 13:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I think that the "personality profiles" should be excluded in perpetuity. In addition, I think that the corresponding "further reading" suggestion be removed. The views presented are very likely politically motivated, not factually motivated. That is, the end goal of the source material is to advance a political movement, not to contribute to the understanding of the issues. The cited source, Sue Zalk, made several politically motivated and biased statements of dubious benefit on this subject. Since this would tend to detract from the informational quality of this article, I believe that they should be excluded permanently.Firenech (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed section for discussion

message: People who engage in sexual harassment and abuse in school don’t necessarily look as if they would ever harm a student. Attorney Mary Jo McGrath writes: "Most of us have a mental image that people who hurt other people look odd and act differently than ordinary folk. To the contrary, frequently the perpetrator is someone we think of as a winner. Though always dangerous to generalize it is important to challenge our beliefs with some disconcerting facts." 
Zalk (1987) has described several personality dimensions, or "themes," evident in teachers who sexually harass students. Each dimension is comprised of two profiles, each representing the end of a “pole.” (These are not entirely mutually exclusive dimensions, and a harasser's placement into any is a matter of judgement.)
The Untouchable and The Risk-Taker: The Untouchable does not consider the consequences of his or her actions, believing themselves to be in control, free of any real risks, and beyond the ranks of censorship or reprimands. They may flaunt sexual liaisons with students, viewing this as a challenge to the system. For the most part, they are narcissistic and grandiose, viewing themselves as “untouchable,” much like the egocentric adolescent who does not believe they will ever “get caught” or who continually drives drunk. The Risk-Taker knows they are being “naughty” and their actions are a statement, but at the same time, the risk-taker fears punishment for the transgressions. They will vacillate between the “high” of breaking-the-rules and guilt at the immorality of their actions. The student will symbolize the transgression, and symbolize the harasser’s weakness. Because of this, the harasser will blame the victim, labeling them a “tempter” or “temptress” who has taken advantage. Indeed, the Risk-Taker will view themselves as being the victims, and not the other way around.
The Seducer-Demander and the Passive-Initiator: The Seducer-Demander is a “power player” who actively plots sexual encounters using his or her position to do so. A Demander has little more than contempt for their targets, and they broker favors for sex as their way of keeping people in their “proper place.” A Seducer also uses their position to facilitate sexual encounters but they have a need to be desired and loved, and the power of their position, and the effect it has on their targets, is part of this dynamic. The Passive-Initiator is the person who pays special attention to a student, is flirtatious and flattering, but who does not make the first overtly sexual overture. They will argue that, if the student is the one to initiate sexual contact, then the teacher is not guilty of any transgressions. However, it has been argued that an unequal power distribution in this kind of relationship makes the teachers concession to the overtures exploitation. That the subordinate "asked" is not an excuse for complying. The Passive-Initiator "draws the line between morality and immorality at who does the asking."
The Infatuated and The Sexual Conqueror: The Sexual Conqueror is the typical Don Juan (or Juanita) who seduces many people. They will remember little about each conquest, as they are only interested in numbers. In many cases, they will not even be able to match a name to a face. The Infatuated begins by developing a “crush” on a student which may evolve into stronger feelings. The primary attraction to the target is that they are student which makes the Infatuated feel stronger and more powerful than they would in a relationship with a peer. They want to be looked up to, and to be the center of the relationship. They want to be the teacher who “guides” the lover. In many cases, the Infatuated are very discontented with their own status within their departments or companies, and the relationship with the students is a panacea to this, and helps to bolster the Infatuated's self-esteem. (Zalk, 1990)
For some examples of these kinds of personality traits at work, see Naomi Wolf's article The Silent Treatment, about her relationship with her professor, the renowned writer Harold Bloom, while she was a student at Yale University. See also SESAME survivors stories, Mary Kay LeTourneau, Pamela Smart, and Debra Lafave.
:I failed to mention it earlier but I also agree with Eceresa's comments on student on student harassment. I suppose it should be mentioned somewhere since this topic is so generic (won't find that kind of loophole in Roman Catholic sex abuse cases). But it seems to distract here. The issue is teacher on student. If the article needs to be forked so each can be discussed, fine. But there is little to substantiate student on student or student on teacher. Hard enough problem to get convictions with teacher on student. Almost impossible the other way. I will amend our requests to include this issue as well. Student7 (talk) 13:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the "personality profiles" should be excluded in perpetuity. In addition, I think that the corresponding "further reading" suggestion be removed. The views presented are very likely politically motivated, not factually motivated. That is, the end goal of the source material is to advance a political movement, not to contribute to the understanding of the issues. The cited source, Sue Zalk, made several politically motivated and biased statements of dubious benefit on this subject. Since this would tend to detract from the informational quality of this article, I believe that they should be excluded permanently.Firenech (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Personality traits and attitudes

message: Perhaps there are good/experienced editors who look at this page, who might be interested in taking a look at a (very) different article: Scouting sex abuse cases. There are well-organised vested interests determined to cover-up what goes in the Scouts so some fresh contributions might be useful. Testbed (talk) 20:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parity across sex abuse articles on Wikipedia? 

message: An answer from a spokesperson [Chris Keates, Nat'l Assoc of Schoolmaster etc. etc., (a small union in the UK) is in the article. The person is WP:NN and not a well-known personality in her own right. I do not object to the answer being used, but using her name detracts from the article and seems to promote (WP:PR}, and otherwise exaggerate the importance of someone who is not well known. My question is why should she be so prominent in the article which is not about her nor her organization, but is essentially about ideas and not people? I tried to footnote her name and organization and was thwarted by another editor from doing so. If organizations and author were explicitly inserted for every footnote, we'd be overloaded and wondering what the heck the article was really aobut! Which is why this is seldom done. Student7 (talk) 19:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Small association, NN spokesperson

message: It's unclear why the term child sexual abuse isn't really used in the current article, since illicit sex with underaged minors is usually qualified as abuse by modern media and legislation. Although there is room for distinction between sexual harassment and sexual abuse, the harassment part is often included within the specific abuse, since it amounts to the associated criminal practice of child grooming. 
Even if some abuse is more or less consensual, this doesn't take away the fact that the nature of the crime itself involves people below the age of legal consent. Also, the fact that certain abusers are heterosexual women, who have nothing to do with previous clerical pederasty affairs, doesn't necessarily make these cases any more respectable to the general public than other child abuse scandals. 
ADM (talk) 05:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Child sexual abuse

message: It is one thing for literature, even fictional, to make a acclaimed presentation on a topic. Quite another for a pop song which contributes nothing intellectual at all. This is an encyclopedia, not an almanac junk collection of random thoughts by song-writers. IMO they should be removed. All of them. Student7 (talk) 12:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Songs?

message: This mostly seems US centric. I suggest moving it all to "Sexual harassment in education in the United States." Anything that is redeemable as a higher level article can be copied back. Other countries will need their own article anyway. Student7 (talk) 00:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved to U.S. only article. Tried to reconstruct some semblance of a general article. Please feel free to copy back anything you see of a general nature that applies worldwide and not merely to the U.S. Most studies tend to be US and European in scope. Rarely is the "whole world" considered. Student7 (talk) 16:35, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: United States

message: There are a few subtleties that this article misses. I'll add my thoughts separately, so that responses can be made to each.Firenech (talk) 04:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content subtleties 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Sexual harassment in education in the United States. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120307133503/http://wcco.com/topstories/sex.offenders.female.2.355798.html to http://wcco.com/topstories/sex.offenders.female.2.355798.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I will be working on making some additions to this article. I plan on going through the current statistics to confirm that the information is correct, adding to the sections on types of sexual harassment in education, as well as researching and adding to the section on the effects of sexual harassment in education. I am including some sources from my bibliography thus far.
*
*Gruber, James E., and Susan Fineran. "Comparing the impact of bullying and sexual harassment victimization on the mental and physical health of adolescents." Sex Roles 59, no. 1-2 (2008): 1-13.
*Lipson, Jodi. Hostile Hallways: Bullying, Teasing, and Sexual Harassment in School. AAUW Educational Foundation, 1111 Sixteenth Street, NW, Washington, DC 20036, 2001.
Eacat27 (talk) 15:25, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Some additions

message: More information on the demographic area of this article is needed.  The section does not provide diversity and the information is dated. Information on more groups like LGBTQ would be beneficial for this area for the article.  In the race segment, there was a lack of conceptualization of the statistics presented. Sandratorres28 (talk) 00:54, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Demographic Section.