Talk:Æthelbald of Mercia

message: Ethelbald was effectively first king of unified Br.  See W S Churchill's History of the British People (whatever its exact title...)  Trekphiler 11:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  England? 

message: I've included the story of Ceolred dying in a fit, which per the Ceolred of Mercia page comes from St. Boniface.  It needs a source citation, though, since another WP article can't be used as a source and the Ceolred article doesn't cite it. Mike Christie (talk) 12:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed my mind and removed it.  See the Ceolred article to re-add it; but it needs Boniface as a source. Mike Christie (talk) 22:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Updated link:  -- Jheald (talk) 21:46, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

text: Angus, thanks for the pointers.  I'm not familiar with these sources but will do some research; the "Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England" site I can reference directly, of course, but I'd like to cite the countervailing comment you attribute to Kirby, too.  Thanks. Mike Christie (talk) 01:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can add those. I've been putting off Æthelbald for a while, hoping that I'd get a chance to read Worthington and Hill's Æthelbald and Offa, but no such luck. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 09:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds interesting -- can you give me an ISBN?  I just did a search for it and found their "Offa's Dyke" but not the book you mention.  Mike Christie (talk) 18:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: David Hill & Margaret Worthington (eds.) Aethelbald and Offa : two eighth-century kings of Mercia (British Archaeological Reports, British series, no. 383). Oxford: Archaeopress, 2005.  Angus McLellan  (Talk) 20:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceolred's death 

message: I'd like opinions about what remains to be done before taking this to GA, and possibly FA.
#One thing I do think is missing is a good map.  There's a map of Mercia in Mercia, but I don't really like it because it uses modern English counties as the elements, which I think gives a misleading idea of precision in the boundaries.  The earlier map used in Penda of Mercia is dated around 600 and is really a little early.  I could create one using DMIS if necessary, though I'm not all that deft with graphics.
#I'd also like an image of the crypt at Repton.  There's a good picture in Swanton, and another in Campbell, but fair use doesn't apply to pictures of buildings that could be made available in free versions.
#I haven't been able to find images of coins that are reliably of Ethelbald's reign.  Sceat makes it sound as if there are none except possibly the U series, and that doesn't sound reliable enough to include.
#I think the article should be moved to Aethelbald of Mercia, and appropriate redirects created.  As far as I can tell from the references I'm using, that's much the most common spelling.  The "Ethelbald" spelling is rare, and using "Æthelbald" may be technically correct but should not be the primary form, since few people will type that in.  If this is agreed, then I will also change all spellings in the article to use "Aethelbald".
Any other comments or suggestions?  I think this is close enough for GA now, but I think it needs a little more for FA.  Thanks for any ideas. Mike Christie (talk) 17:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no artistic talent whatsoever and couldn't really help with a map, but I'll see if I can google up a C19th one from somewhere. There are images of the crypt on Flickr, but they are , which would have to be fair use only. Alas! no pics of the rider that I saw. As for coins, the Fitzwilliam medieval corpus db starts with Offa. For the naming, I usually go with the ghastly ligatures, and redirect to those, but I have no problem with "Aethelbald". Dr Plunkett would be the man to speak to on this subject. He's an expert on the subject and I'm sure he'd be willing to offer suggestions. He's done a lot of marvellous East Anglian stuff. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 00:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I found an 1841 print of the crypt on Gutenberg.org; that'll do.  I'm not going to worry about the spelling for now; that's something that should probably be settled consistently across a whole set of articles, and it's more important (and more fun) to get more articles up to GA/FA first.  I'm going to put this up for GA, and I'll drop Dr. Plunkett a note -- thanks for the suggestion, and for all the help.  Mike Christie (talk) 01:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's left for GA/FA 

message: Pasted in from suggestions left by Dr. Stephen Plunkett on my talk page:
#'Bretwalda'. I don't remember what the WP article on this title says, but in general the Chronicle use of the term is retrospective (Bede doesn't use the term) and may be part of a later (West Saxon) propagandist way of looking at their history, which might account for why AEthelbald and Offa were left out, despite being so important! In other words, they can justify making Bede's 'top rulers' into bretwaldas (whatever that really means), but they are not going to dignify the ruddy Mercians with such a title if they don't have to.
#Maybe worth saying what a big dynastic crisis the end of Ceolred was: the end of the whole dynasty from Penda, so that they had to find a descendant of his brother Eowa, who died in the battle in which Oswald was slain. Therefore this whole business about Guthlac is important, because Ceolred was persecuting Ethelbald who, in turn, was probably aspiring to rule while Ceolred was still alive. Glance at my WP articles on Ealdwulf of East Anglia and Aelfwald of East Anglia. ceolred's widow was the great Werburgh, whose christian life was a key aspect of the reign of AEthelbald.
#'began a long period of mercian Domination' - some would say it had already been growing pretty much since Penda's time, and had reached considerable heights in the time of Wulfhere and Aethelred. And there are times in the 9th century when the reign of Wiglaf (after his recovery) looks pretty impressive too.
#I don't think the big Clofesho of 746/7 or whenever was a response to Boniface's letter - I think it was at a time when the whole English church was looking to Boniface as leading a huge movement on the continent, and reforms in England were earnestly needed and being prompted through Boniface. Boniface's letter to Aelfwald of East Anglia is clearly in relation to two of the capitula of the Council, and he was writing to these rulers in advance of the Council trying to get them to support his reforms, precisely because he was worried about the path Ethelbald was following. But clearly the early to mid 8th century Mercian church (eg Peterborough (and it colonies), Breedon (Tatwine going to Canterbury), the painted book art of (say) Rome Gospels, Leningrad Gospels, Stockholm Codex Aureus, etc are showing developments which imply that patronage of the church was very strong in Mercia, and linked both to Northumbria and Canterbury. Boniface is being more political, and in his fiery letter to Ethelbald he doesn't really mean that Ethelbald is in danger of becoming a pagan or anything like that - at this stage Boniface is a Very elder statesman in Europe. 
#On Beornrad, glance at my WP thoughts on Beonna of East Anglia.
#Would be good to quote the Biddle discussion of Repton sculpture and mausoleum, (if you haven't already, I forget).
#I seem to remember that Ethelbald's regnal styles in his charters are important as evidence of his projection of the royal image. 
#Personally I think (see Aelfwald of East Anglia) that Ethelbald, although the senior ruler, made the Mercian ascendancy by having a completely friendly relation with East Anglia from the start, and therefore had all the East Anglian allies with him, i.e. he didn't dissipate Mercian energies in pointless hostility with East Anglia, he had a friendship policy through the Fen religious houses and so was able to concentrate on controlling the West Saxons (though he lost out to Cuthred) and the Northumbrians.
===Work on the above points===
#Bretwaldaship -- I think this is done; I've found it hard to find sources that come out and say that the Chronicle has been regarded by some as West Saxon propaganda, but I think there's enough there now.  The fact that the chronicler was West Saxon is not controversial, nor is Offa's dominance.  I was going to mention Penda as an example of West Saxon bias, along with Aethelbald and Offa, but I left him out because Bede omits him too. Mike Christie (talk) 22:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions from Dr. Steven Plunkett 

message: #Bretwaldaship -- I think this is done; I've found it hard to find sources that come out and say that the Chronicle has been regarded by some as West Saxon propaganda, but I think there's enough there now.  The fact that the chronicler was West Saxon is not controversial, nor is Offa's dominance.  I was going to mention Penda as an example of West Saxon bias, along with Aethelbald and Offa, but I left him out because Bede omits him too. Mike Christie (talk) 22:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Work on the above points

message: The following is pasted in from a note left by Dr. Stephen Plunkett on my talk page:
Hiya Mike, thanks for your message! I think there are a few papers by the Biddles floating around about Repton, and I am scratching around for my refs at present, but try:
* M Biddle and B Kjølbye-Biddle, 1985, 'The Repton Stone', in Anglo-Saxon England Vol 14 (1985), 233-292. (This may give pointers to other relevant publications as well.)
The claim that East Anglia (under AElfwald) and Mercia under AEthelbald were friendly, is based on the East Anglian patronage of Guthlac during Aethelbald's exile in Crowland (see Felix Life of Guthlac) and from the matriarchal prominence of Werburga as Mercian abbess and patroness, in whom the Kentish, East Anglian and Mercian dynastic lines and interests were united. As a daughter of Wulfhere and Eormenhild, granddaughter of Penda, Seaxburga and Eorconberht, great-granddaughter of Eadbald and Anna, and widow of the discredited Ceolred, her maternal side religious personal heredity is entirely Kentish and East Anglian, and it is likely that her father Wulfhere's conversion (and initial apprehension of Mercian power) came through his Kentish marriage, which came at or soon after his accession and provided the necessary southern alliances to reinforce his reign against the rivalry of Northumbria. Notice also the apparent extension of Medeshamstede patronage over the Middle Anglian and Mercian church, as a twin hub of religious hegemony together with East Anglian Ely, centred around the Fen. (Possibly Tatwine, who (probably at Repton) recommended Guthlac to go to Crowland in 699, was the same who later ruled Breedon, and rose in 731 to Canterbury? - as I suggested in 'The Mercian Perspective' in Sally Foster's St Andrews Sarcophagus volume, Dublin 1998.) The prosperity of Aelfwald's East Anglia, especially Gipeswic, the rising monasteries, and the development of the coinage, indicate that its substance was not dissipated in hostilities towards Mercia or suppressed by Mercian exploitation. Hence it was no doubt affiliated to Mercian superiority, but retained its dynasty at least down to Aelfwald's death (and probably right down to Edmund). I presume that if there is a connection between Beorna of East Anglia and Beornred of Mercia (identity or kinship), the last years of Aethelbald before his assassination may have been coloured by changing East Anglian policy. At that point it is hard to tell whether Beornred has represented a party hostile to Athelbald, perhaps prompting his assassination in order to seize power, or whether he may be an Athelbald partizan stepping in to try to hold off the ambition of Offa. In the latter case, it might be that the partition of East Anglia in 749 was an external policy of Aethelbald's: alternatively East Anglia may have been seized by the 'B' dynasts as a stronghold against him. Difficult to know, but it is clearly a departure from the apparent long peace of the period 713-749. If as Huntingdon or Malmesbury says (I forget which), the East Angles were with Aethelbald at the battle of Burford Bridge against Cuthred of Wessex in 752, they were his allies even after the death of Aelfwald.
The most recent reference for this case being made is, I'm afraid, to me! e.g.:
*S.J. Plunkett, Suffolk in Anglo-Saxon Times (Tempus, Stroud 2005), esp. pp142-162.
I hope that is helpful. Best wishes and well done for your continuing efforts, Dr Steven Plunkett 08:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of that might be referenced to Kirby, p 112, where he says: "It is evident from The Life of Guthlac that a harmonious relationship prevailed for some time after Aethelbald became king between the Mercian king and Aelfwald...otherwise it would be difficult to explain the dedication of the Life of a Mercian saint to King Aelfwald." qp10qp 21:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now got a copy of Dr. Plunkett's book: the relevant sections are 142-143, where he discusses "East Anglian and Mercian politics in the Fen:, and a long paragraph on p. 147 where he returns to the same topic.  After some thought I think I'm not going to add anything to the article based on this -- Plunkett doesn't directly draw the conclusions about friendly relations, though he does go into the underlying details to establish the connections.  If another source is found that makes the overall assertion about Æthelbald's political approach to East Anglia and Lindsey, then Plunkett can be used to back it up. Mike Christie (talk) 20:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future research 

message: I just changed a part of a recent edit be Ceoil back: the version as it now stands is "Æthelbald had all the English south of the Humber under his overlordship".  It had been "Æthelbald ruled over all of England south of the Humber".  The difference between overlordship and ruling is, I think, important enough to preserve.  The point that is intended to be made is that although each of the other kingdoms still had their own ruler, they were subject to Æthelbald's authority in some ways -- this is different to the implication of "ruled", which I think would naturally be interpreted as Æthelbald actually taking the kingship of these other kingdoms.  The intent of the subsequent explanation of overlordship in that paragraph is to make this clear.  If it doesn't do that, I'll see if I can tweak it to make it the differences more apparent. Mike Christie (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with that; its a big danger in drive by editing; correct meaning can often be lost. Thanks for the oversight. Ceoil 02:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overlordship edit 

message: I temporarily have the St. Andrew's Sarcophagus book in my possession, so here's the reference if it's needed later for the assertion that the two Tatwines are the same person: 
"The Mercian Perspective", Steven J. Plunkett, in 
The quote is: "Breedon was sufficiently important in 731 for its abbot, Tatwine (author of a book of riddles), to be appointed Archbishop of Canterbury (HE V, 2); he may have been the same Tatwine who first recommended Crowland to Guthlac."
-- Mike Christie (talk) 19:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tatwine reference 

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