Talk:Pahari-Pothwari

message: What is your problem Mr Taivo. can you explain the grounds for reverting with out any reference. dont miss use your edit chair for fun and reverse only you can proof the edits wrong as suppourted by published material. REGARDZZZZZ Frenchdreamer (talk) 18:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  HOLD ON A MOMENT

message: ----
 As for Mirpuris talking very fast, mirpuri is generally a faster language than both urdu and punjabi - what's wrong with him saying that?...
In the same paragraph he had a vulgar and obscene sentence. So I decided the whole paragraph should be deemed implausible. In addition to this I also thought some may take offence; as he mentioned renowned, this I thought denoted sarcasm.
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And finally, there is no such thing as Mirpuri. People of the Punjab refer to themselves as Punjabis.... People from Bradford are known as Yorkshirman not Bradfordians. Like wise the so-called "Mirpuris" are Kashmiris as their province is called "Azad Kashmir"
I acknowledge your reply with regards to this and I take back what I said. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the term Mirpuri amongst some non-Mirpuris holds derogative connotations. It is correct to say they are Kashmiri aswell. Just like the Pushtuns, Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbeks to name a few living in Afghanistan come under the union of Afghans. Although they are distinct. Just like the Mirpuris and Kashmiris of the vale whom are distinct in terms of language and culture.
However some have a hard time comprehending the fact that they are Kashmiri and begin to question it. Due to the fact that some whom are engrossed in ethnocentrism have very negative pre-conceived, prejudice, discriminatory and stereotypical views of the term Mirpuri contrast this with the term Kashmiri which totally contrasts their stereotypical views of it. And thus the superiority complex comes crashing down.
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With regard to Mirpuris referring to themselves as Kashmiris amongst "fellow" Pakistanis and Pakistani amongst the English just shows their commitment to the cause of Pakistan. If they had a superiority complex over Pakistanis it's quite obvious they wouldn't refer to themselves as Pakistanis yet they do.
They are obviously not going to call themselves Pakistanis amongst their fellow Pakistanis. They identify themselves by a term geographically which is not isolate as opposed to referring to their village or city which in some instances may be ambiguous. 
The Mirpuris as you mentioned have a keen interest in Sports when Pakistan is participating, again shows the nationalism in favour of Pakistan rooted within them. Since they have their own government and parliament they can not represent their vote in Pakistan.
I am Mirpuri/Kashmiri whatever you prefer, and I believe the majority of Mirpuris hold the view that they are Pakistani just as well as Kashmiri "through and through".
I don't understand why you question why the Mirpuris call themselves Kashmiri, it's not like they are forging an ethnicity or culture.
What do you mean in terms of respect and values? True, culturally Kashmiris of the Vale and Mirpuris are distinct but to say that one culture in terms of respect and values is superior to the other is just plain wrong.
--82.47.146.235 15:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replies to The Previous Poster. 

message: The Hindko language is a daughter language of Potwari, Hindko was a language which was adopted by the pashtuns for some unknown reason, Potwari IS NOT A TRANSITIONAL DIALECT BECAUSE IT'S GRAMMAR ANS SYNTAX IS LESS "PUNJABIFIED" then Hindko, for example in hindko they say vadda for big but in pothwari it's barha which shares a term with Urdu, Hindko is a not a language but a dialectm, potwari has more inventive and deviating features from it's sister language Punjabi, pothwari is a dialect of Punjabi, for example we say "tak" for see and we have our own inflections for example to say inside an object you have to say : Pakistan wich---> Pakistan-ech.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnaan1 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? — kwami (talk) 17:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potwari is a seperate language from hindko and not a transitional dialect 

message: There is currently a deletion discussion taking place at Commons regarding :File:Map on Dialects Of Punjabi Language.jpg, which can be viewed here. Regardless of whether the map image is deleted at Commons, I think that it needs to be removed from all English Wikipedia articles because it breaches our synthesis policy. The image creator has provided a long list of sources in the deletion discussion and it is evident from those that none contain all of the information shown in the image, nor is it a simple task to work out which bits of information were gleaned from which source(s). We simply do not permit people to aggregate information in this way. It should also be noted that the chances are very high that the various sources did not even adopt the same methodology in compiling their data, which makes the analysis of the creator even more suspect.I have removed the image because the Commons discussion may end up as something other than "delete" and yet the thing is still invalid on English Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 21:15, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Map was deleted on two reasons. 1... Commons deletion discussion but now Deletion request by Sitush has been rejected on Wikimedia Commons. 2... Sitush has a self perception that map is synthesis, which is actually not because it is based on latest research of 2007 in the Publication named 'The Indo-Aryan Languages' by George Cardona and Dhanesh Jain. So I am re inserting it. Unless Sitush prove it again as a synthesis and refer me the areas of map being synthesized also mentioning the different publications along with page numbers where from in his kind opinion I have synthesized the map.Maria0333 (talk) 08:22, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map image breaches policy & has been removed 

message: I have accepted the IP's edit removing this section as it was unsourced and hence the IP's judgement takes precedence over status quo, but I have no personal opinion of it and another user is free to revert it back with a source or a atleast a good reason. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It was only added some half an hour before the anon's removal, so the anon actually reverted it to the status quo. --JorisvS (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potwari people 

message: In light of the recent expansion, I think it's clear that the current title doesn't optimally represent the scope of the article, which now more explicitly covers both Pahari and Pothwari. Should the title be changed to Pahari-Pothwari (or Pahari Pothwari) – more or less the terms used on ethnologue and glottolog respectively, but apparently not common in the literature – or should we go for a more natural title like Pahari and Pothwari? Pinging participants from the last discussion: , ,  and ; excluding those that are now blocked or topic-banned).  – Uanfala (talk) 04:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we not stick to the WP:COMMONNAME, which would appear to be Pothohari (spelt after the Pothohar Plateau)? Mar4d (talk) 08:28, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We would if the article were only about the language of the Pothohar Plateau. But in its current state, the article also covers the language of most of Azad Kashmir, whose common name is "Pahari". It's this whole language complex (or group of dialects) that ethnologue has decided to call "Pahari–Potwari" and glottolog has chosen to refer to as "Pahari Potwari". It's conceivable that we might want to eventually have separate articles about Pothwari and Pahari, but we don't really have a glut of editors interested in writing about that, do we? Besides, the two topics will be really difficult to disentangle: it appears to be a case of a dialect continuum without any linguistically natural borders, and the two common names of "Pahari" and "Pothwari" overlap in a large part of their areas (the districts around Mirpur and in the British diaspora, where both names appear to be current). As for the spelling variants, during the last RM I got the impression that "Pothwari" was more common in recent literature than either "Pothohari" or "Potwari". – Uanfala (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see, that would make sense. There are minor but not absolutely discernible differences between the dialects of Mirpur/Kashmir and the Potohar/northern Punjab regions. Pahari is indeed used widely as the name, but so is Pothohari, depending on where the dialects are spoken. I would support a move to Pahari-Pothwari. One thing I'd like to see confirmed is the spelling of "Pothwari" as there appear to be a lot of alternatives (Potohari, Potwari, Pothohari, Potohari etc.). If Pothwari is common, we'll stick to that though ideally the language and the plateau it is named after should have the same spelling really. Mar4d (talk) 09:05, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had a look again, and at least in the linguistics literature of the last 15 years or so, "Pothwari" appears to be more common: it's the spelling used in this article's sources (particularly the major surveys by Lothers and Lothers) as well as in the two papers (not cited in the article) dedicated to the topic in the  volumes I have access to. This is also visible from the titles in the (modest) bibliography in the glottolog entry. A broader google search comes up with comparable numbers of hits – 109, 332, 128 and 151 for Pothwari, Potwari, Pothohari and Potohari respectively. Judging from these results, Potohari appears about 40% more common than Pothwari, and Potwari has twice as many, but among the results there appears to be a higher proportion of rubbish (stuff like empty pages that have long lists of automatically generated keywords that contain the term). My instinct would be to disregard these results (too unreliable, too small to be significant) and go for the usage in recent reliable sources. In linguistics literature, "Pothwari" clearly predominates, but I don't have any idea what the picture is outside this field. What's your opinion? – Uanfala (talk) 22:24, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right, that's fine. We should go by what the reliable sources use as most common. As far as my opinion is concerned, "Pothwari" certainly appears to be very common in local pronunciation as compared to Potohari (with the 'h' instead of 'w'). However, it's not always necessary that the spelling and pronunciation of a common word align. In this case, since you have put up evidence, it is easier to say which spelling variation to go for. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 02:06, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. So it's Pahari-Pothwari, then? If there's no further input in the next couple of days, I'll place a request for a renaming. – Uanfala (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article's title (again) 

message: At one time or another, this article has featured one or another of a set of three maps:
*:File:Pahari-Potohari-Hindko Map.jpg
*:File:Languages and Dialects of Lahnda.png
*:File:North Lahnda Map.png
At the moment, only the first one appears in the article (the other two were removed without explanation just now, and I can imagine they may easily be put back in). 
Can we get to some sort of informed decision about each of them? The pros are that they're all clear and readable, and that the information in them appears plausible enough (though I haven't been able to look in detail at everything displayed in them). The cons are that they don't cite sources, and that they, somewhat annoyingly, feature visible image credits.
So, thoughts anyone? – Uanfala (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The maps 

message: We, the Pothwari speakers of the Pothwar Plateau are Punjabi. Why is there no reference to the Punjabi people when there is a very clear one to the Pahari people in the very introduction?: "In Kashmir, speakers of Pahari-Pothwari are known as Pahari people". It's only fair to also include: "In the Pothwar Plateau, speakers of Pothwari are known as Punjabis"
Pahari-Pothwari speakers are not a monolith. There is a very clear divide between those of AJK and those of the Plateau. Those from AJK may not wish to be associated with Punjab, but those of us who are from the Plateau proudly consider ourselves Punjabi, and we have a very similar culture to that of the rest of the Punjab. 
I believe it would be misleading to reference the Pahari people in the article without also referencing the Punjabis. Both are key parts of the Pothwari speaking community.
I therefore wish to include "In the Pothwar Plateau, speakers of Pothwari are known as Punjabis" in the article. Can I proceed?. If anyone has anything to say on this matter do let me know please! 
EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: From the little I know, it does appear that what you're saying is correct. However, in order for this statement to be added to the article, you need a source that supports it. That's the most basic requirement for anything added to Wikipedia (see WP:V). If this is the first time you're dealing with references here, see WP:REFB. And by the way, I've just removed the mention of the Paharis of Kashmir that you refer to . If anything of this kind is added back, it should be cited to a good source, ideally an academic publication that goes into some detail about the people's identity (I understand such a thing may be difficult to immediately come by, but that's the sort of sourcing we're striving to build our articles on in the long term). – Uanfala (talk) 15:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The people of the Pothwar Plateau are Punjabi 

message: I'm looking into sources relevant to Pothwari being a dialect of Punjabi. The following source is cited in the articles of Doabi and other dialects to support their status of being a dialect of Punjabi:
• "Punjabi University, Patiala". Archived from the original on 2017-07-31. Retrieved 2011-03-29.
Would this source give sufficient grounds to mention Pothwari being a dialect of Punjabi in this article? Any ideas? EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a reliable source for such claims (see WP:BLOGS and WP:RSCONTEXT). – Uanfala (talk) 13:48, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources on Pothwari being a dialect of Punjabi 

message: This Future tense is commonly used throughout the Punjab province such as in the Jhangvi, Shahpuri, and Dhani dialects. (Jhang, Chinot, Khanewal, Khushab, Chakwal, Tala Gang, Attock, Sargodha, Mandi Bahudin, Sahiwal, Pakpattan) and also in the Hazara division (Hindko) and Southern Punjabi (Saraiki belt commonly known nowadays)
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Isn't it a bit misleading to call it a comparision with Punjabi? It makes it seem as if Punjabi lacks this tense. I am a native speaker of Jatki Punjabi and I have added a reference.
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Lets discuss :) Noorisaboyname (talk) 12:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A discussion on the Future Tense 

message: I am unsure what the proper linguistic terminology should be for the following concepts.
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Pothohari: MaahRay aastay vii ghinee achhee'n
Dhani: Mainday aastay vii ghin aavee'n
Jatki: Meray aastay vii lae aavee'n
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Pothohari: Kaday tikkii tey behii vii jaayaa kar
Dhani/Jatki: Kaday tikk ke beh vii jaayaa kar
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Pothohari: Theek hoii gyaa
Dhani/Jatki: Theek ho gya
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Pothohari: Us kii saara kujh changi tarah samjhaaii tey muRii achhee'n
Dhani/Jatki: Oh nu saara kujh changi tarah samjhaa ke muR aavee'n/
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Pothohari: Miki vii naal lyii/ghinii julso?
Dhani/Jatki: Menu vii naal ghin/lae veyso?
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And the second.
Pothohari: Dhyaanay naal Tur, Araamay naal beh,
Jatki: Dhyaan naal Tur, Araam naal beh
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Pothohari: Raatii nii rotii changi honi ke dihaaray ni?
Jatki: Raat dii rotii changi hondi ke dihaar di?
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Pothohari: Namaazay na veylaa hoii gya ae, maseetay vich na dissyaa taa'n khair koi nahi
Jatki: Namaaz da veylaa ho gya ae, maseet vich na dissya taa'n khair koi nahi
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The first one shows that verbs when ending in their root forms take an "ee" sound at the end.
The second shows that Pothohari has Instrumental forms for nouns even when they do not end in a vowel: Example:
Pothohari: Eh maahRa jaNa ae, Iss jaNay kii kujh na aakhee'n
Jatki: Eh mera jaNa ae, Iss jaNay nu kujh na aakhee'n
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But
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Pothohari: Eh maahRa ghaar ae, tey is ghaaray naal miki bahoon muhabbat ae
Jatki: Eh mera ghar ae, tey is ghar naal menu bahoon muhabbat ae
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For the second feature I have an some linguistic evidence from Wilson's Shahpuri dictionary where he discusses this feature of Northern Dialects.
The second feauture is in Hindko and Attock Punjabi as well but the first feature is specific to Pothohari, Pahari and Dogri. Noorisaboyname (talk) 12:17, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pothohari has two more interesting features that I would wish to add.