Talk:Qiu Chuji

message: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25066726?seq=13
http://www.jstor.org/stable/41930343?seq=13
http://books.google.com/books?id=8FVsWq31MtMC&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17695/17695-h/17695-h.htm#Page_242
Rajmaan (talk) 22:24, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

message: The name and content of the book Journey to the West(西游记) by Wu Cheng'en is quite different from the book Journey to the West of the Perfect Man of Eternal Spring(长春真人西游记) by Li Zhichang. I don't think the book Journey to the West will attributed to Qiu Chuji.
=== Response to comment on Journey to the West ===
While I think everyone now agrees that Qiu Chuji did not write "Journey to the West" I believe that you are incorrect that the book has not been attributed to him.  Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning-- my intent was to indicate that the book has been attributed to him, but that attirbution is unlikely to be correct.  Please consider the following:
Monkey by Wu Cheng'en translated by Arthur Waley (one of the most popular translations of Journey to the West into English), Grove Press, 1943.  In the 1984 edition at page three, in the Introduction  by Dr. Hu Shih (the Chinese ambassador to the U.S. when the intro was written in 1942) you will find the following:
"Wu died without any children.  The anonymity of the authorship of Monkey [here the author refers to "Journey to the West"] was so complete that for over three centuries the general reading public actually believed that the story was written by the Taoist Patriarch Chiu Ch'u-ki (1148-1227) who in 1219 was invited by Genghis Khan to visit him in Central Asia and who left a record of his travels under the title Hsi Yu Ki (Record of a Journey to the West), which is still regarded as a valuable contribution of the geographical knowledge of the time.  It was the similarity in title and the seemingly allegorical character of the novel which were largely responsible for the erroneous attribution of authorship."
Please see also, Seven Taoist Masters: A Folk Novel of China translated by Eva Wong, Shambhala Classics, 1990.  My understanding is that this is an anonymous folk novel that Ms. Wong has translated.  At page 173 of the 2004 edition you will find the following text, which seems consistent with the report in Arthur Waley's book of the incorrect attribution of "Journey to the West":
"After his reconciliation with Zen Master Pai-yun, Ch'iu Ch'ang-ch'un left the daily administrative matters of White Cloud Monastery to his senior disciples and withdrew into solitude in preparation for his departure from the mortal realm.  Drawing from his experience of the obstacles that he had encountered during his training, Ch'iu Ch'ang-ch'un wrote a book called Journey to the West. In it he discussed the pitfalls that obstruct the path to enlightenment. . . "
Since the story is so famous and apparently the misattribution was so widespread, it seems worthwhile to set the record straight here.  If I have been mislead by the English langauge sources that I must rely on, then the note should come out.  But Dr. Hu Shih seems a reliable source.  Crypticfirefly
:Thank you for your clarify. I agree with you now.--Skyfiler 02:45, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
ERROR IN　ＰＩＮＹＩＮ
Ｔｈｅ　ｐｉｎｙｉｎ　ｆｏｒ　ｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｌｉｓｔｓ　ｉｎｃｏｒｒｅｃｔ　ｔｏｎｅｓ　－　ｉｔ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｑｉｕ１　ｃｈｕ３ｊｉ１，　ｎｏ　ｃｈｕ４ｊｉ１．　　ｃｈｕ４　ｍｅａｎｓ　ｐｌａｃｅ，　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ａ　ｎｏｕｎ，　ｃｈｕ３　ｍｅａｎｓ　ｔｏ　ｄｗｅｌｌ　ｉｎ　ｏｒ　ａｔ，　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ａ　ｖｅｒｂ．　　Ｉｔ＇ｓ　ｅａｓｙ　ｔｏ　ｓｅｅ　ｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｃｈｕ３ｊｉ１　－　ｊｉ１　ｈｅｒｅ　ｉｓ　ｂｅｉｎｇ　ｕｓｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｍｅａｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｅｓｓｅｎｃｅ　ｏｒ　ｎａｔｕｒｅ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｉｎｇｓ，　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｎａｍｅ　ｍｅａｎｓ　ｈｅ　ｉｓ　ｄｗｅｌｌｉｎｇ　ｏｒ　ｒｅｓｉｄｉｎｇ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｅｓｓｅｎｃｅ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｉｎｇｓ．　　Ｉ＇ｍ　ａｆｒａｉｄ　Ｉ　ｄｏｎ＇ｔ　ｈａｖｅ　ａ　ｃｉｔｅ　ｆｏｒ　ｔｈｉｓ，　ｂｕｔ　ｆｏｒ　ｓｏｍｅｏｎｅ　ｗｈｏ　ｉｓ　ｆａｍｉｌａｒ　ｗｉｔｈ　ｎａｍｉｎｇ　ｃｏｎｖｅｎｔｉｏｎｓ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｐｅｒｉｏｄ　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ｏｂｖｉｏｕｓｅ．
Ａｌｓｏ，　ｉｔ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｃｈａｎｇ２ｃｈｕｎ１ｚｉ３，　ｉｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｚｉ　ｉｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｎｅｕｔｒａｌ　ｔｏｎｅ，　ｂｕｔ　ｒａｔｈｅｒ　ｉｓ　ｉｔ＇ｓ　ｆｕｌｌ　ｔｏｎｅ．　　Ｔｈｅ　ｚｉ３　ｕｓｅｄ　ｉｎ　ｎａｍｅｓ　ｉｓ　ａｌｍｏｓｔ　ａｌｗａｙｓ　ｆｕｌｌ　ｔｏｎｅ，　ｅｓｐｅｃｉａｌｌｙ　ｗｈｅｒｅ　ａｓ　ｈｅｒｅ　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ｕｓｅｄ　ｒｅｓｐｅｃｔｆｕｌｌｙ．
Ｃｌｏｓｅｓｔ　ｔｈｉｎｇ　Ｉ　ｃａｎ　ｃｏｍｅ　ｔｏ　ａ　ｃｉｔｅ　ｉｓ　ｔｏ　ｔｅｌｌ　ｙｏｕ　ｔｏ　ｗａｔｃｈ　ｏｎｅ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｔｅｌｅｖｉｓｉｏｎ　ａｄａｐａｔｉｏｎｓ　ｏｆ　ｊｉｎｙｏｎｇ＇ｓ　射雕英雄传　ａｎｄ　ｊｕｓｔ　ｌｉｓｔｅｎ　ｔｏ　ｈｏｗ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｐｒｏｎｏｕｎｃｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｎａｍｅ　－　ｇｒａｎｔｅｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｓｃｒｅｗ　ｕｐ　ａｌｏｔ　ｏｆ　ｐｒｏｎｏｕｎｃｉａｔｉｏｎｓ，　ｓｏ　ｉｔｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｔｅｒｒｉｂｌｙ　ａｕｔｈｏｒｉｔｉｔａｔｉｖｅ，　ｂｕｔ　ａｓ　Ｉ　ｓａｉｄ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｉｓ　ｆａｉｒｌｙ　ｏｂｖｉｏｕｓｅ．
Ｉ　ｄｏｎ＇ｔ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｈｏｗ　ｔｏ　ｅｄｉｔ　ｗｉｋｉｐｅｄｉａ　ｐａｇｅｓ，　ｓｏ　Ｉ＇ｌｌ　ｌｅａｖｅ　ｉｔ　ｔｏ　ｓｏｍｅｏｎｅ　ｅｌｓｅ　ｔｏ　ｅｄｉｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｐａｇｅ，　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ａｇｒｅｅ．
～～～～　  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.9.27 (talk) 13:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:   Journey to the West 

message: While I think everyone now agrees that Qiu Chuji did not write "Journey to the West" I believe that you are incorrect that the book has not been attributed to him.  Perhaps you misunderstood my meaning-- my intent was to indicate that the book has been attributed to him, but that attirbution is unlikely to be correct.  Please consider the following:
Monkey by Wu Cheng'en translated by Arthur Waley (one of the most popular translations of Journey to the West into English), Grove Press, 1943.  In the 1984 edition at page three, in the Introduction  by Dr. Hu Shih (the Chinese ambassador to the U.S. when the intro was written in 1942) you will find the following:
"Wu died without any children.  The anonymity of the authorship of Monkey [here the author refers to "Journey to the West"] was so complete that for over three centuries the general reading public actually believed that the story was written by the Taoist Patriarch Chiu Ch'u-ki (1148-1227) who in 1219 was invited by Genghis Khan to visit him in Central Asia and who left a record of his travels under the title Hsi Yu Ki (Record of a Journey to the West), which is still regarded as a valuable contribution of the geographical knowledge of the time.  It was the similarity in title and the seemingly allegorical character of the novel which were largely responsible for the erroneous attribution of authorship."
Please see also, Seven Taoist Masters: A Folk Novel of China translated by Eva Wong, Shambhala Classics, 1990.  My understanding is that this is an anonymous folk novel that Ms. Wong has translated.  At page 173 of the 2004 edition you will find the following text, which seems consistent with the report in Arthur Waley's book of the incorrect attribution of "Journey to the West":
"After his reconciliation with Zen Master Pai-yun, Ch'iu Ch'ang-ch'un left the daily administrative matters of White Cloud Monastery to his senior disciples and withdrew into solitude in preparation for his departure from the mortal realm.  Drawing from his experience of the obstacles that he had encountered during his training, Ch'iu Ch'ang-ch'un wrote a book called Journey to the West. In it he discussed the pitfalls that obstruct the path to enlightenment. . . "
Since the story is so famous and apparently the misattribution was so widespread, it seems worthwhile to set the record straight here.  If I have been mislead by the English langauge sources that I must rely on, then the note should come out.  But Dr. Hu Shih seems a reliable source.  Crypticfirefly
:Thank you for your clarify. I agree with you now.--Skyfiler 02:45, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
ERROR IN　ＰＩＮＹＩＮ
Ｔｈｅ　ｐｉｎｙｉｎ　ｆｏｒ　ｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｌｉｓｔｓ　ｉｎｃｏｒｒｅｃｔ　ｔｏｎｅｓ　－　ｉｔ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｑｉｕ１　ｃｈｕ３ｊｉ１，　ｎｏ　ｃｈｕ４ｊｉ１．　　ｃｈｕ４　ｍｅａｎｓ　ｐｌａｃｅ，　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ａ　ｎｏｕｎ，　ｃｈｕ３　ｍｅａｎｓ　ｔｏ　ｄｗｅｌｌ　ｉｎ　ｏｒ　ａｔ，　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ａ　ｖｅｒｂ．　　Ｉｔ＇ｓ　ｅａｓｙ　ｔｏ　ｓｅｅ　ｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｃｈｕ３ｊｉ１　－　ｊｉ１　ｈｅｒｅ　ｉｓ　ｂｅｉｎｇ　ｕｓｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｍｅａｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｅｓｓｅｎｃｅ　ｏｒ　ｎａｔｕｒｅ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｉｎｇｓ，　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｎａｍｅ　ｍｅａｎｓ　ｈｅ　ｉｓ　ｄｗｅｌｌｉｎｇ　ｏｒ　ｒｅｓｉｄｉｎｇ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｅｓｓｅｎｃｅ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｉｎｇｓ．　　Ｉ＇ｍ　ａｆｒａｉｄ　Ｉ　ｄｏｎ＇ｔ　ｈａｖｅ　ａ　ｃｉｔｅ　ｆｏｒ　ｔｈｉｓ，　ｂｕｔ　ｆｏｒ　ｓｏｍｅｏｎｅ　ｗｈｏ　ｉｓ　ｆａｍｉｌａｒ　ｗｉｔｈ　ｎａｍｉｎｇ　ｃｏｎｖｅｎｔｉｏｎｓ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｐｅｒｉｏｄ　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ｏｂｖｉｏｕｓｅ．
Ａｌｓｏ，　ｉｔ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｃｈａｎｇ２ｃｈｕｎ１ｚｉ３，　ｉｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｚｉ　ｉｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｎｅｕｔｒａｌ　ｔｏｎｅ，　ｂｕｔ　ｒａｔｈｅｒ　ｉｓ　ｉｔ＇ｓ　ｆｕｌｌ　ｔｏｎｅ．　　Ｔｈｅ　ｚｉ３　ｕｓｅｄ　ｉｎ　ｎａｍｅｓ　ｉｓ　ａｌｍｏｓｔ　ａｌｗａｙｓ　ｆｕｌｌ　ｔｏｎｅ，　ｅｓｐｅｃｉａｌｌｙ　ｗｈｅｒｅ　ａｓ　ｈｅｒｅ　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ｕｓｅｄ　ｒｅｓｐｅｃｔｆｕｌｌｙ．
Ｃｌｏｓｅｓｔ　ｔｈｉｎｇ　Ｉ　ｃａｎ　ｃｏｍｅ　ｔｏ　ａ　ｃｉｔｅ　ｉｓ　ｔｏ　ｔｅｌｌ　ｙｏｕ　ｔｏ　ｗａｔｃｈ　ｏｎｅ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｔｅｌｅｖｉｓｉｏｎ　ａｄａｐａｔｉｏｎｓ　ｏｆ　ｊｉｎｙｏｎｇ＇ｓ　射雕英雄传　ａｎｄ　ｊｕｓｔ　ｌｉｓｔｅｎ　ｔｏ　ｈｏｗ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｐｒｏｎｏｕｎｃｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｎａｍｅ　－　ｇｒａｎｔｅｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｓｃｒｅｗ　ｕｐ　ａｌｏｔ　ｏｆ　ｐｒｏｎｏｕｎｃｉａｔｉｏｎｓ，　ｓｏ　ｉｔｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｔｅｒｒｉｂｌｙ　ａｕｔｈｏｒｉｔｉｔａｔｉｖｅ，　ｂｕｔ　ａｓ　Ｉ　ｓａｉｄ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｎａｍｅ　ｉｓ　ｆａｉｒｌｙ　ｏｂｖｉｏｕｓｅ．
Ｉ　ｄｏｎ＇ｔ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｈｏｗ　ｔｏ　ｅｄｉｔ　ｗｉｋｉｐｅｄｉａ　ｐａｇｅｓ，　ｓｏ　Ｉ＇ｌｌ　ｌｅａｖｅ　ｉｔ　ｔｏ　ｓｏｍｅｏｎｅ　ｅｌｓｅ　ｔｏ　ｅｄｉｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｐａｇｅ，　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ａｇｒｅｅ．
～～～～　  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.9.27 (talk) 13:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to comment on Journey to the West 

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