Talk:Romanians/Archive 4

message: Ok, so we`ve all finally reached a conclusion. Indeed, it`s uselessness isa clear, it`s pseudo-scientific, subjective, and pathetic. For the one who made it and insist in wasting my bandwidht, three words: Quality, not quantity!. Removed. Greier 17:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The map

message: How do French, Italians, Portugese, and Spaniards relate to Romanians on an ethnical level? --Candide, or Optimism 18:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eastern Romance peoples ("Vlachs", an odd term), French, Italians, etc are all branches of Latin peoples. So they are all related groups.  Ronline ✉ 10:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They are not ethnically related. Are they? If so, how? --Candide, or Optimism 16:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Romanians are closer ethnically (traditions, customs, etc) to the Bulgarians and Serbians than to the French. bogdan 16:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And to the Hungarians and Ukrainians, and other people that we might have mixed with. Someone should remove that part. --Candide, or Optimism 16:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, they shouldn't. Romanians are ethnically more similar to other Latin peoples, based on common origin from Romans (OK, this hypothesis is to an extent controversial). Customs are a quite superficial thing when considering ethnicity. Greeks have similar customs to Macedonian (Slavs), but that does not mean that they are related ethnic groups at all. When looking at ethnicity, we're looking at origin. And if we trace history back, Romanians and Spanish and Portuguese were once part of the same ethnic group (the Romans). Of course, a lot of this is abstract and theoretical. If we look at gene pools, it is true that Romanian genes are probably closer to Bulgarian and other Southeastern European peoples than, say, Walloons or Romansh Swiss. Then again, many Finns have similar genes to Russians and to an extent to Swedes. That doesn't make any of those three groups "related ethnically".  Ronline ✉ 07:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What Romans? Our origin is from the natives of the Balkans. And even if we did share a Roman ancestry, so do the Brits and other people. That doesn't mean that we share their ethnicity. It is wrong to say that we share ethnicity with those people and it should be removed. --Candide, or Optimism 16:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Romanians are a mix of Dacians and Romans, are they not? At least the concept of "Romanian" was formed as a result of the fusion of those two peoples. Now, South Slavs, the groups you allege we're related to, are Slavic. Majoritarily Slavic people who mixed in with the local proto-Balkan people (including the Dacians). So there is a degree of shared heritage, but very little overlap. On the other hand, the other Latin peoples are also descended from the Romans (and mixed in with their respective populations). No, it doesn't mean we share their ethnicity. It means that they're the closest people to us on an ethnic level (not a cultural level, though we are quite close to other Latin people culturally). But Romanians are a Latin people, that is by far the majority viewpoint.  Ronline ✉ 06:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related ethnic groups 

message: It's a fact that there are more romanians than the statistics will ever say. I happen to belive that maybe there are more than 8 million romanians abroad. Arthur say that it must be at least 10,000,000 romanians. It may be well 12,000,000 like the romanian government said it's hard to make a real census. That's why most estimations are saying that there may be around 10-12,000,000 romanians abroad. That means a total of 32-35,000,000 romanians.
--Andrei George 21:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Statistics

message: ====PS====
Any citizen that has a valid Romanian Identity Card is romanian?
--Andrei George 20:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it depends, is this page about Romanian ethnicity, or Romanian citizenship? Or both? - FrancisTyers 20:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ethnicity. from the article: The Romanians [...] are an ethnic group. So, no, we don't include the Hungarians in this number. bogdan 20:26, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, well. I was sure that user:NorbertArthur was not, but uncertain about Andrei and Bombonel. Francis, even though these last two have it seems been fingered as Bonaparte, there may still be some need for your assistance. There has been considerable debate on this topic here for more than six months now, not all of it emanating from Bonaparte Proxies Inc. The exercise you had started in detailing the sources might yet prove a useful one, if there yet remain (as I believe) non-Bonapartes with a similar concern re the numbers. Arthur, BaNaTeaN, what say you--cjllw | TALK 13:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We'll see what people think... - FrancisTyers 21:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: Any citizen that has a valid Romanian Identity Card is romanian?
--Andrei George 20:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it depends, is this page about Romanian ethnicity, or Romanian citizenship? Or both? - FrancisTyers 20:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ethnicity. from the article: The Romanians [...] are an ethnic group. So, no, we don't include the Hungarians in this number. bogdan 20:26, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, well. I was sure that user:NorbertArthur was not, but uncertain about Andrei and Bombonel. Francis, even though these last two have it seems been fingered as Bonaparte, there may still be some need for your assistance. There has been considerable debate on this topic here for more than six months now, not all of it emanating from Bonaparte Proxies Inc. The exercise you had started in detailing the sources might yet prove a useful one, if there yet remain (as I believe) non-Bonapartes with a similar concern re the numbers. Arthur, BaNaTeaN, what say you--cjllw | TALK 13:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We'll see what people think... - FrancisTyers 21:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PS

message: Hello, I found this  map of haplogroup distribution across world and Europe (check slide 2). We (romanians) really have a lot of genetic variety, not only cultural. Dpotop 14:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Man, we are a nice mix! 

message: He's labelled a "dissident" in this article; I think that's a bit of a stretch. Yes, he was demoted for a couple of decades, but none of his pre-Revolutionary activities really qualifies as "dissidence." Thoughts? Biruitorul 18:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iliescu

message: I've heard today Mr. President of Romania: he said there are 35 millions Romanians worldwide. --200.46.151.236 19:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if he did, I see no reason to take him at his word, or to bypass the policy/guidelines of WP:RS, WP:CITE, and others.--cjllw | TALK 01:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even though I think he is a great president, Băsescu is known for his sweeping statements on the number of Romanians. He sometimes says 40 million ("cei 40 de milioane de români"!), 35 million or 30 million. His statements are not an official source and don't reflect reality.  Ronline ✉ 08:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: OK. How many Romanians there are? There are at least 1,500,000 in USA + 500,000 in Canada. There are 500,000 in France, 1,500,000 in Spain 1,500,000-2,000,000 in Italy. I think there are at least 34 millions. --82.159.137.18 14:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 35 millions [[Romanians]]

message: I'd like to see references for that 29,000 claim for Greece. According to the 2001 census, there are 23,066 Romanian immigrants in Greece, and 5,898 from the Republic of Moldova (of course, it's a question of doubt whether they are all ethnically Romanian and espouse a Romanian national identity - there may be ethnic Hungarians or Russians - not to mention ethnic Moldovans :p). --Telex 17:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what the census says. —Khoikhoi 01:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Census does not says that Moldovans are not Romanians.--62.96.77.222 19:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It distinguishes them as different groups. —Khoikhoi 21:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the census talking about ethnicity or nationality (since there is no clear reference provided, I must ask). - Jmabel | Talk 00:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greece 

message: 10 million persons
*http://www.itcnet.ro/folk_festival/people.htm 
*http://www.hotnews.ro/articol_21456-Romanii-din-diaspora-sedusi-si-abandonati.htm 62.96.77.222 20:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 10 millions romanians in the world

message: I see that the Moldovan numbers have been removed from the total count of Romanians. I suppose this is justified to an extent, but the article is at the moment self-contradictory and inconsistent. On one hand, the lead says that Moldovans are basically Romanians, and also, the count for Ukraine and the former USSR includes people identifying as ethnic Moldovans - these should be removed too, then (i.e. there are not 200,000 Romanians in RU, UZ and KZ - most of these declare as ethnic Moldovans, do they not?). In any case, I think this is quite a big change and should be debated more thoroughly.  Ronline ✉ 07:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The US do not recognize Moldovans as an ethnic group different from Romanians. We discussed this before. I found the proof for the US (from census.gov), and nobody provided data showing that some other nation outside the former Soviet Union recognizes a separate "Moldovan" ethnicity. So, you cannot simply exclude the possibility that Moldovan=Romanian.  Now, I would agree with presenting both figures in the infobox, but not just the one of Mikkalai. Dpotop 07:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmmm, well this is not really a matter of recognition but of self-identification. But I agree that the situation is very complex. The former Soviet states, however, can only recognise Moldovan as a separate ethnicity because people declare it as such. And if people declare Moldovan ethnicity, then in many ways they can be seen as Moldovan. Or are you saying that if in the US one writes "Moldovan", they are counted as Romanian automatically? This would really cloud the issue further.  Ronline ✉ 07:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nope, we're talking here official numbers, not the existence of the ethnic group. So it's about recognition by states. Dpotop 07:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes but when the census says there are 100,000 Moldovans and 200,000 Romanians, do we count 300,000 Romanians or 200,000 Romanians? This isn't really about recognition by states, since most states recognise self-identification of ethnic groups (which is why the Jedi religion was published in the census data). So we should really only count as Romanian those who actually write Romanian. If people write Moldovan, then we can't say that recognising them that way is a POV of the state that conducts the census, but rather their own identity. This issue would be clouded, however, if some states were so automatically count Moldovans as Romanians. You said that "[no] other nation outside the former Soviet Union recognizes a separate "Moldovan" ethnicity". Does this mean that other nations consider those who declare themselves Moldovan to be Romanian? I would say it's just unlikely for people to declare themselves Moldovan in those countries.  Ronline ✉ 10:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think states should, in general, be seen as any particular authority on people's ethnicity. Presumably, we are talking here about Daco-Romanians (but in English it is more common just to say Romanians). I'd include Moldovans in that, but I wouldn't include Aromanians, Megleno-Romanians, Istro-Romanians (who would all fit in one large room, anyway), etc. - Jmabel | Talk 00:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Either one or the other