Talk:List of dodecaphonic and serial compositions

message: I see that it has been proposed that this list be merged with the List of pieces which use serialism. This seems a sensible proposal, since neither list is especially long (at least, not at the moment), and there is considerable duplication, especially in the list of Schoenberg's compositions. However, as the article Serialism indicates, there are different senses of that term, and by no means are all serial pieces twelve-tone (at least two of the pieces presently in the list of serial pieces, the Calonne and Tremblay, do not use twelve-tone technique, for example). For this reason, it would be best to merge the lists under the "serialism" heading, and possibly to indicate in that list which pieces fall under the smaller heading "twelve-tone pieces".--Jerome Kohl 00:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I should have taggedo it as It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into List of pieces which use serialism. Twelve-tone is a specific subcategory of serialism. --S.dedalus 23:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge but distinguish Twelve tone compositions are serialistic by their very nature, but they use a special type of serialism in which all 12 tones/notes are present without duplication.  Other serialist works will either duplicate or miss out some of the notes, or both, in the series they use; they are also not nessecarily atonal.  For now both lists should appear on the same page but with 12t in one list, and all other serial works in an other.  I will be easier to spot mistakes that way, too.  Jubilee♫clipman 04:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is more complicated than that. Twelve-tone compositions only became "serialistic" in 1949, when René Leibowitz first applied the word "serial" to twelve-tone technique, so it is purely tautological to say they are "by their very nature" serialistic. "Other serialist works" do far more (and far less) than simply "duplicate or miss out some of the notes, or both". You are assuming that there is still a recurring referential ordered set, but this is not true for, say, Pousseur's Quintet in Memory of Anton Webern or Scambi, Stockhausen's Klavierstück I, Zyklus, or Stimmung (a sterling example of non-atonal serialism), Boulez's Le Marteau sans maître (apart form the "Bourreaux de solitude" movements), or Goeyvaerts's Nr. 5 with Pure Tones. Simply dividing the list into two both presupposes a priority for twelve-tone music and assumes that all others share some common trait (which, if true, has not been explained to date, so far as I am aware). It seems to me that, before merging these two lists, it would be well to decide what "non-n-tone-row" serialism might be, especially if it comes to nothing more than "someone once said this piece is serial, but I don't understand what that means".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:37, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Done. I combined the two into a new article, which now of course needs a lot of work. Jminthorne (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: Due to a recent edit by an anonymous editor, my attention is drawn to the fact that this list is categorized under Wikiproject Classical Music Articles. Because this recent edit involved adding a punk-rock album to the list (and I notice a number of film-score entries, as well), it should be clear that, like serialism, "twelve-tone" is a technique, not a genre or style. What are other editors' views on this? Should this list be restricted to "classical" music? (If so, should the title be altered to reflect this, and a new list begun for Twelve-tone popular music?) A further thought: to what extent should WP:Notability be applied to this list which, at the moment, seems to be a bit indiscriminate?—Jerome Kohl 01:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it very had to believe that there is any twelve-tone music in existence that is not classical art music. Any popular music piece that was added to this list I would view with extreme skepticism unless it was well sited. If there really is a rock song that actually uses twelve-tone technique though I don’t see why it should not be added. It seems unlikely that this list will ever be taken over by pop music. --S.dedalus 03:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, I’m not entirely convinced that this article should even be kept, but I don’t think it would pass an AfD review. I suppose with a great deal of effort this could become a passable list. --S.dedalus (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Category question

message: Shouldn't this article be moved to "List of pieces that use serial and twelve-tone techniques"? Toccata quarta (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, and perhaps it should also somehow indicate that these "pieces" are in fact musical compositions and not, for example, pieces of jigsaw puzzles. It would make the title longer, though. Please develop your reasoning.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:33, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Does "pieces that use twelve-tone" make any sense? Toccata quarta (talk) 20:51, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. Does it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:05, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course not. "List of pieces that use serialism and twelve-tone" is nonsense, just as "pieces that use Baroque forms" is. Toccata quarta (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's more like it! Well, "serialism" is certainly credentialed as a noun, and as long ago as 1959 Heinz-Klaus Metzger (in Die Reihe 4: "Reports, Analyses") documented "the twelve-tone", although it is true this was in a list of music-criticism terms that "do not grasp a subject" and are therefore "abortive concepts". While I agree that this title looks like it went for a long walk on a short dock, would it not be preferable to recast it in a shorter, rather than a longer form? For example: "List of serial and twelve-tone compositions", or "List of serial and twelve-tone musical pieces"?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:50, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you (and others) OK with the new title? Toccata quarta (talk) 17:21, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What's with this long Greek word "dodecaphonic"? I don't recall it ever came up in the discussion.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I went for "dodecaphonic" as Twelve-tone technique claims that British English prefers "twelve-note" to "twelve-tone". But I may be wrong in thinking that "dodecaphonic" is used in both the UK and the US. Toccata quarta (talk) 17:37, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move