Talk:John Ross (Cherokee chief)

message: This page as become highly stable following a period of intensive edits which have created a balanced and detailed article on Ross's life and leadership.  Attention should be focused on gaps in Ross's life and leadership, particularly following removal.  Citations are being added for the information already in this article and new information should have citations as well. Jaedglass 16:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing this Article 

message: The painting looks odd. I don't know if Ross had markings on the right side of his face, but they look photoshoped or not part of the origional painting.
Are there any other depictions of Ross, and can someone please add them if possible?
Thanks Gloushire 03:29, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy of the painting 

message: Are there any documents that someone can cite that show that Charles Hicks actually became principal chief with the death of Pathkiller?  Gary Moulton writes in his biography of Ross that Hicks died two weeks after Pathkiller does not describe Hicks as having been principal chief with the death of Pathkiller.  Ross' letter from his collected papers, which I cited in the Ross article indicate the successive losses of Pathkiller and Hicks left Ross as the sole leader of the nation, but also does not indicate that Hicks had been elevated to the role of principal chief.
I don't think it can be presumed that Hicks had accended to the role of principal chief simply because Pathkiller died.  The closeness in proximity of their deaths raises the question of whether any formal decisions had been reached as to the new leadership structure and whether Hicks was physically capable of performing any act as principal chief.  
If we cannot find some primary source that demostates that Hicks was principal chief for that two week period, I believe it is misleading for the information on this page to state that Hicks served as principal chief prior to Ross.  I believe it is appropriate for those who have added this information to find some documentation or to change the succession box on the Ross page and rewrite the Charles R. Hicks page.
::Sources document that Charles Hicks was Principal Chief for two weeks before his death; his brother William Hicks succeeded him; after a new government was formed by a constitution, Ross was elected Principal Chief the following year in 1828.Parkwells (talk) 03:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transition from Pathkiller to Ross 

message: The intro is well-written, and I thought the section previously under the subtitle "Cherokee Moses" would work well as part of it rather than warranting its own section. Due to the irony of the quote by which said subtitle took its name, I don't know that the phrase works as a sort of chapter of Ross' life. To state the obvious, McKenny's statement, which compares the Trail of Tears to the Hebrew Exodus, is ridiculous--being forced to leave the land of your "nativity" is not the same as escaping the land of your people's slavery. While Ross was esteemed by many Cherokee, he was certainly not looked to as a "Moses."  Efrafra 06:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This morning I cleaned up this article and changed the person infobox into the Native American leader infobox that might be useful for other Cherokee leaders. IMHO, although the lede is much too long (and basically unsourced), I put the problematic "Cherokee Moses" subsection (re-added by someone who didn't sign their posts) into two chronological subsections within the article's body. Some fit into the early and family life section, but much didn't. Frankly, an alternate would have been to move this paragraph into the second lede paragraph and take out most everything else--and put it into the body despite the relative lack of footnotes. Right now, I'm not in a library and don't have time to do the necessary research, so mostly differentiated between section and subsections, as well as took out many passive constructions.Jweaver28 (talk) 16:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cherokee Moses" 

message: I'm sorry to inform the editors of this article that I am quickfailing its Good Article nomination due to inadequate referencing. Here are some things to do before renomination:
*Per WP:LEAD, the lead should be about two or three full paragraphs summarizing all the main points of the article.
*There are entire sections and paragraphs without a single reference. Everything must be cited.
*There are some WP:MOS issues. I'd suggest getting someone from WikiProject:League of Copyeditors to look it over.
*Full dates should be wikilinked: May 19 2008.
*Don't name a section "Conclusion". That makes it sound more like an essay for class than an encyclopedia article.
*The books in the "Further reading" need isbn numbers.
*Merge or delete the trivia per WP:TRIVIA.
Another good idea is to get a peer review. They will help with more specific changes to make. Good luck. Nikki311 06:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA fail

message: The article mentions strong dissension between full-blood and half-blood Cherokees, and suggests it's related to slaveholding, but never explains what it was about.  This needs fuller explanation and sourcing.--Parkwells (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Full-blood/half-blood issues

message: One sentence?  In the Indian Territory, Ross helped draft a constitution for the entire Cherokee nation in 1839, and was chosen as chief of the nation.  What about the conflicts between the three groups of Cherokee -- the Old Settlers, the Treaty Supporters, and the Treaty opponents led by Ross, a numerical but violent majority.  Conflict, violence and murder almost to the point of Civil war!  This lasted until 1846, when the three parties, and associated fringe groups, finally came to a truce and established a government. See: Treaty of New Echota/Enforcement.  Needs a serious effort at expansion.  WBardwin (talk) 04:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: After Removal

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :John Ross (Cherokee chief)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "nhlsum":
From Murrell Home: 
From New Echota: 
From John Ross House (Rossville, Georgia): 
From Fort Gibson: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:26, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:John Ross (Cherokee chief)]] 

message: I removed this uncited quote from the main article because I can't find it anywhere online except Wikipedia mirror sites. Here it is so if anyone can reference it, then it can be returned to the article.
In his final annual message on October 1865, Ross assessed the Cherokee experience during the Civil War and his performance as chief. The Cherokee could "have the proud satisfaction of knowing that we honestly strove to preserve the peace within our borders, but when this could not be done,...borne a gallant part in the defense...of the cause which has been crowned with such signal success."
-Uyvsdi (talk) 16:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the deletion, because of the lack of citation still after three years, and because its inclusion creates POV problems. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Quote

message: This source published by University of Oklahoma Press said that Pathkiller was the last hereditary leader of the Cherokee, and that Hicks was the first chief to have any European ancestry.Arrell Morgan Gibson, Oklahoma, A History of Five Centuries, University of Oklahoma Press, 1981, p. 65 Parkwells (talk) 02:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Hereditary leadership

message: As Uyvsdi noted above, numerous sources of the last decade all note the clan membership of both The Ridge and Ross, in part saying it was a major part of what made them Cherokee to other members of the tribe. Parkwells (talk) 03:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The most important functions of the clans were protection through the threat of retaliation and control of property.  The Act of Oblivion in 1808 pushed by James Vann, The Ridge, and Charles Hicks put an end to the first, and James Vann's will destroyed the second.  In fact, the Act of Oblivion (The Cherokee Observer, Vol. 15, No. 14 & 15, 2007, pg. 2, column 1: http://www.cherokeeobserver.org/PDF/NovDec07/co111207pg1-8.pdf) refers to children being heirs of their father's property and details how a father, not the clan, can bequeath his property after his death.  After that, more so after the full National Council put its stamp on the Act two years later, the clan system existed in name only.  There is no evidence to show that The Ridge ever lived with his wife's clan.  After the Chickamauga Wars, The Ridge established a plantation near Oothcaloga, then at Head of Coosa, near Chatuga and the plantation of his protoge, John Ross, with said properties being in his name, as were those of Ross. Of the latter there is no doubt that he never at any time lived with his mother's clan.  Your statement is without foundation. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 04:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Clarification: I didn't say he lived with his mother's clan, but that those numerous sources agree in saying that at the time, he was identified as being of his mother's clan by the Cherokee.  They are not commenting on the strength of the clan system but suggesting it was stil part of his identity, as perceived by at least some of the people.  Parkwells (talk) 14:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I accept that, but I'd love to see sources.  This discussion had gotten my interest up on the clan system.. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 16:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Uysvdi listed several sources above that identify Ross and his clan.Parkwells (talk) 04:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

text: The above was what a lot of the reason for the Ghost Dance Movement among the Cherokee in 1811 and White Path's Rebellion of 1824-1828, traditionalists rebelling against the New Order and calling for a return to the clan system. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 05:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The National Council was established as the national government in 1794, but didn't become effective as such until 1809, the same year the National Committee was established.  The Lighthorse Guard had been authorized in 1808.  The Cherokee Supreme Court was established in 1822, along with the eight judicial-legislative districts. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 05:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, there was a lot of change and turmoil, and political changes leading up to the election of Ross.  Some people called for a return to traditional ways. Scholars disagree about whether there was a Ghost Dance movement in 1811-1812; Michelene E. Pesantubbee is a professor of American Indian studies at the University of Iowa who specializes in Native American religious traditions. "In “When the Earth Shakes: The Cherokee Prophecies of 1811-1812” American Indian Quarterly (1993), Pesanttubbee took a closer look at the evidence and concluded that there was no “Ghost Dance” movement per se among the Cherokees. Unlike McLaughlin, she also felt that the Cherokee incidents were, in part, fueled by rumors about the Shawnee movement led by Tecumseh."Parkwells (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're either George Ellison or you plagiarized an article he wrote word for word from the column he wrote "second of two parts" on the movement for the Smoky Mountain News (http://www.smokymountainnews.com/news/item/3275-tragedy-and-the-ghost-dance%E2%80%99s-demise?tmpl=component&print=1). I prefer William McLouglin, but more so James Mooney and Thomas McKenney, whose informants were not only James Wofford and Major Ridge, but the Moravian Brethren and their records. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 16:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ellison was plagiarizing himself. I quoted that section from here <://freedmenvscherokeenation.blogspot.com/2011/02/ghost-dance-among-cherokee.html>.Parkwells (talk) 04:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies, I didn't see the quotation marks before. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 05:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

text: If you're interested in McLouglin's essay and have not read it yourself, you can find it here in its entirety, complete with appendices: http://books.google.com/books?id=STdH2aInoB8C&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=The+Cherokee+Ghost+Dance+Movement+of+1811-1813&source=bl&ots=BIX7kladEX&sig=MM0WqUtFZYnh--2uMRah8STb33w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eRbqTq6-LdOItwez0vzLCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=The%20Cherokee%20Ghost%20Dance%20Movement%20of%201811-1813&f=false. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 16:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

text: There is a difference between the Article and its Discussion page.  This is the Discussion page.  The Discussion page is for Discussion and debate, not for supplying citations and references except to bolster one's argument, and even then that choice is up to the editor.  Likewise, your arguments about OR are inot relevant here because the Discussion page is not the Article page, where citations are strongly recommended and OR is forbidden. Speaking of clans, I have yet to see any material offered to support the contention that their clans were important to any of these "young chiefs" under discussion or that the Cherokee clan system survives today. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 18:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I gather you don't actually click on or read any of the links. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm well aware of what clans are, and that every nation had/has them. You do not seem aware of what functions Cherokee clans performed for their members regarding, protection, retaliation, and property, at least prior to the end of the 18th, opening of the 19th century. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 00:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides, those references are extremely limited. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 02:09, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think either Uyvsdi or I made a "contention that the clans were important to the 'young chiefs' or that the system survives today." That is not in the text under discussion. I included the material about the matrilineal system and clan because it was in the sources I cited; it seemed appropriate detail to add to the context. Neither of us rated how important it was to Ross himself, nor do I think anyone can say that it had no influence on anyone at the time. The clan system might have changed, but people use many elements to make alliances. Greg O'Brien makes the point that in the matrilineal Choctaw tribe, the mixed-blood chiefs were Choctaw first, that they belonged to their mother's people and cared about the tribe. Ross appeared to, even if he used his position for personal wealth and power. But isn't that the case with most political leaders? The Choctaw were making similar political changes to those of the Cherokee; O'Brien makes the point that Choctaw chiefs recognized the advantage of using such mixed-race elite men as "trailblazers into an unprecedented universe of capitalist accumulation and renewable wealth." Greg O'Brien, Choctaws in a Revolutionary Age, 1750-1830, Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 2005, p. 103 He suggests that the young mixed-race men were creoles, in the sense of combining aspects of both cultures to create something new and point to the future.  Similarly, Pathkiller and Hicks of the Cherokee identified and mentored Ross for future leadership.Parkwells (talk) 04:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: All anyone needs to prove that clans remained and still remain important to Cherokee identity is point at the seal of the Cherokee Nation.  There's no disputing that, just as there is no disputing that clan membership is a big part of Scottish identity, to such an extent that the West and South Asians immigrants in Scotland banded together to form the Clan Singh, complete with their own chief, tartan, music, coat-of-arms, and yes, it is recognized by the Lord Lyon King of Arms.  However, before the first decade of the 19th century, the clan system served more pragmatic purposes also, just as clans did in Scotland before the Rising of the '45 and more so before the infiltration of Norman feudalism. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 05:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Clan

message: Very nice conclusion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edibobb (talk • contribs) 21:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conclusion 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The header for this page is absurdly over-detailed with not a single source to back up any claims past the first paragraph, I’m not an expert on the subject or on proper Wikipedia editing but this seems like a serious problem 2601:89:C600:11D7:ADDA:2294:34D5:495 (talk) 13:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently, it's usual not to put references, or not many, in the lead (since it's usually a summary of things that are mentioned elsewhere in the article), but I really don't know how this article got so top-heavy, obviously most of what's in the lead ought to be moved to the body of the article but it'd be a big job since references would have to be added since there aren't any currently.  Wombat140 (talk) 02:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Severe lack of sources