Talk:Saint George's Cross

message: This article says that St George's cross was officially adopted as the flag of England and Wales in 1277, but that's impossible since the English didn't have any jurisdiction in Wales untill 1282.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Æscing (talk • contribs) 09:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag of England and Wales?

message: I thought that it was the case that the St George's cross was adopted after one of the English Kings (forget which one) married Eleanor of Aquitaine. Previously the flag was used by the French kingdom of Aquitaine. GordyB 16:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: French origin

message: The "Early use" section is generally misleading. In the age of crusades there were no "English" or "French" knights. There were subjects of the Plantagenets or of the Capetians. The differences between noble knight from Orleans and from Mercia weren't more noticeable than between the same knight from Orleans and a one from Poitou. All of them spoke Middle French, their feudal lord was French and were know as "Franks" in levantian Outremer. 
And of course there was no "English" knights in the ranks of first crusade. They were Frankish Normans of Robert Courtheuse, the duke of Normandy... Mroq (talk) 15:49, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Early use

message: The article refers to the fact that until recently English supporters would fly the British flag at football games, even against Scotland who share this flag, rather than their own flag. That has changed, but the English football authorities still play the British national anthem, which is sung by the English and booed by the Scots and Welsh who are also British. Talk about the "United" Kingdom!  
All caused because the English movement in the 1950's of booing the anthems of Scotland and Wales.
Millbanks 07:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: England v Scotland and Wales

message: Be careful! "St George's Cross" and "White banner with a red cross" are NOT the same thing. In fact although the flag of Milan, Italy has the same appearance of the English one, it is not St George's but St Ambrose's cross FOTW.
Regarding the origins of the english flag, it is not sure that it came from the crusades. It is more likely that another hypotesis is correct: it came from the Republic of Genoa  , as admitted by the Duke of Kent in a flier for the British pavillion at the 1992 Expo in Genoa text here. 130.251.4.11 12:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistakes 

message: How about including this piece of information?
:FC Barcelona shirts sold in Saudi Arabia have had their emblems modified to exclude St George's Cross, included in the flag of the city of Barcelona.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pichote (talk • contribs) 16:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rightly or wrongly, it's been an issue elsewhere as well on several occasions, "Race fears spark St. George ban" Tuesday, October 4, 2005 "LONDON, England (CNN) -- British prison officers who wore a St. George's Cross tie-pin have been ticked off by the jails watchdog over concerns about the symbol's racist connotations." http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/04/britain.redcross/ also http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/03/20/1166314/arsenal-ban-blackburn-rovers-fans-st-georges-cross and http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article248479.ece and http://express.lineone.net/posts/view/45503/Police-told-man-to-hide-racist-St-George-flag- (and a topic of discussion on Stormfront (website)).  There's some mention of this at Flag_of_England#Far_Right.  appears to have additional stories.  Coincidentally (?) it had been used or proposed as one of the Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#The_Battle_Flag, albeit a blue one (I don't know the significance of the blue) but had not been adopted so as not to offend Southern Jews, evidently. Шизомби (talk) 02:55, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: St George's Cross ban

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:City of London Arms.png

message: can y'all add the city of montreal flag, which has the st george's cross, and a rose, shamrock, thistle, and a fleur du lis.  Even the Province of Quebec includes the Cross.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.1.45 (talk) 05:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  montreal flag 

message: The St George's Cross figures into Byzantine Heraldry, probably brought to the East by the Western Crusades c.1340. Possibly a sub-section or link to the article Byzantine Heraldry is appropriate?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebastapolis (talk • contribs) 12:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Byzantine Empire 

message: Genoa was the capital town of the province named "Provincia Maritima Italorum" under the Byzantine domain (544).
The Byzantine soldiers built a church dedicated to Saint George (their patron saint) where any year they went to pay homage to heir gonfalon, maybe just a red cross on a white field. 
The cult of Saint George remained also after the defeat of byzantines in the region (644). 
3 centuries after the emperor recognized the rights of customary and dominatin on the Riviera to Genoa (958) of 947 is the first document that quotes the church.
p.s. isn't wrong genoan, i've always heard genoese  —Preceding unsigned comment added by F.noceti (talk • contribs) 20:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Byzantine Genoa 

message: The statement that Georgia had St George's cross as its flag in the 5th (!) century is odd and seems to be a nationalistic myth. Were national flags in those times at all? Page 54 of Dowling's Sketches refers to nothing.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 12:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Georgia's flag in the 5th century? 

message: From the article lead [unchanged]:
> St George's Cross has been adopted on the coat of arms and flags of several countries and cities which have St George as a patron saint, notably Georgia, England, Aragon, Greece, Genoa and Barcelona.
Heading and lead sentence of section two, following a long section one devoted to England [previous version]:
>St George's Cross in other European countries
> Saint George is the patron saint of England, Catalonia, Aragon and of various other countries and regions.
Are there sovereign states other than Georgia (country) and Greece (Hellenic Republic) with St George as patron? If so, are there any others in Europe? If so, they should be named here with Georgia and Greece. 
For now I have promoted Georgia (with a link to its own section) and Greece by name only. The section lead now alludes to England by "also" and relegates Catalonia, Aragon to the "others" [as revised]:
> Saint George is also the patron saint of Georgia (below), Greece, and various European regions or cities. The flag of Georgia accompanies the Cross by four small red crosses (below) and it used in the flags of two other European countries. 
Someone should say a word or three about those other countries. 
Otherwise I have rearranged the section heavily, both for sentence and link structure and for geographical grouping. Some hidden comments may be useful prompts for a next editor who knows more. --P64 (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  SGC in other European countries 

message: Could people PLEASE stop using FOTW as an authoritative source unthinkingly?
FOTW is a community-driven site just like Wikipedia. It has excellent users, and these can be identified by the fact that they CITE THEIR SOURCES. So by all means use FOTW to locate your sources, and then CITE the sources used at FOTW. If the FOTW comment you would like to use does not happen to cite its source, well, don't use it. --dab (𒁳) 08:45, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: FOTW, [[WP:RS]]

message: In heraldic topics, it is very easy to get things backward if you are not very careful. 
I say this because Wikipedia is riddled with mistakes in heraldry, and I have basically come to expect this of any new heraldic article I approach. This one is no different. I assume that for most editors, heraldry and flags aren't concerns in their own right, and they are happy to just tag "medieval" on pretty much anything and leave it at that. 
Ok, now I have had my say, the development of "St. George's Cross" seems to have been as follows:
*the cross was of course as a field sign since the 5th century. it may also incidentially have been red-on-white at times. You can describe this as "St. George's Cross" in modern terminology, but only if it is made clear that this wasn't what the cross was known or intended as at the time
*The Crusades. In the 12th century a cross meant "I am on a crusade", it did not represent any state or polity. But from the mid-to-late 12th century, the cross was shown in distinct colours to identify the origin of the wearer. This is the starting-point of heraldry itsef.
*The red cross (not necessarily on white) was associated with the Templars, with the Spaniards, and later with the French. I have seen no evidence that it was associated with Saint George in either the 12th or 13th century, or even the 14th.
*Saint George is depicted as a "Christian knight", naturally wearing a cross, beginning about 1200, i.e. still during the Crusades. He is not wearing "his" cross, he is being a crusader (sometimes "a Templar"?)
*The fashion of attributed arms is a 15th century thing (perhaps late 14th?) Now, George begins to use his own flag, and this happens to become fixed as a red-on-white cross from about the 1430s(?) in Italy, France, Spain, Germany and England.
The question remains, when and by what mechanism did St. George become associated with this particular cross?
It is possible that he was the patron saint of a polity which just happened to have chosen red-on-white as their emblem/flag in the 13th century, perhaps Genoa, but we need sources on that. 
Sadly, Wikipedia coverage of the topic is completely corrupted by the spread across articles of a quote lifted from Francobampi.it attributed HRH The Duke of Kent. Why people would do something like this when they have google books and archive.org  at their fingertips is a mystery to me, but that's how it is and I'll try to fix it. --dab (𒁳) 10:04, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical development

message: I think I traced the story of this now. 
The "urban legend" itself predates 1900, I found it mentioned in 1891. 
Of course it is never referenced to a primary source, and never in expert literature, but always in a colloquial "as everyone knows" setting. 
Perrin 1922 is aware of this as a "common belief" and explicitly states that there is no substantiation for it. The only thing left would be to research when the claim is first attested.
Now the "Duke of Kent" version I had to remove from like ten places on Wikipedia. 
Apparently the Duke of Kent (or his ghostwriter) really wrote this in a brochure intended for the 1992 Columbus exhibition in Genoa.
Needless to say, this also wasn't referenced, it was just a nice thing to say to the Genoese.
1992 is a long time ago now, and this brochure would have been forgotten, had it not been unearthed by an Italian outfit known as the "Ligurian Independence Movement" and posted online. Then one guy, Filipo Noceti, posted it on FOTW. I looked at Noceti's contributions to FOTW, and he is always claiming stuff off the top of his head with no references, far below the par on that website. This time his "reference" was the "Ligurian" page about the Duke of Kent's brochure, accurate enough as long as it is treated as referencing the claim made in 1992, and not actual medieval history.
Then from FOTW this was copied to Wikipedia. There seems to be some unwritten rule on the wiki that whatever people copy-paste from FOTW passes under the radar. Wikipedia then helped perpetuate this thing, and it is as of now found repeated verbatim on some 200 place on the internet. 
It was high time to fix this, another instance of Wikipedia "creating" historical truth (aka  Citogenesis). --dab (𒁳) 13:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "Richard the Lionheart" myth

message: I have removed the following sentence because it contains several "facts" that are unsubstantiated and need inline citations to support them:
:"Unknown to the majority of the British public, the flag was "borrowed" from the Genoese Fleet. The reasoning was that the Genoese fleet was very powerful and it meant that it would deter pirates from attacking ships with the flag."
#who says it is "Unknown to the majority of the British public"?
#who says it was borrowed from the Genoese fleet
#who says the Genoese fleet was very powerful
#who says it would deter pirates from attacking British ships?
This removal to the talk page constitutes a challenge and  WP:CHALLENGE states "Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation".
-- PBS (talk) 16:34, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four claims in one unsourced sentence 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion