Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat/Archive 12

message: Removed links to gallery in which scanned material is displayed. Once the sources, dates and attibutions are added to these pages (as promised by owenr of website) these can go back. Othwewise these links are in contravention to wikipedia fair use guidelines. --64.81.88.140 16:44, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Not all scans in the gallery have source and dates mentioned, I have to admit. I have restored the links to a webpage of the Gallery that does not break any copyrights and in such a way the article adheres to Wikipedia guidelines. Andries 12:01, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to gallery 

message: I have reverted this line 'Some of these ex-premies are former senior staff within the organizations and former instructors appointed by Rawat.' Someone had inserted 'claimed to have been'. There is no question about the status of Bob Mishler, Mike Dettmers, Mike Donner, Mike Finch and Jean Michel Khan with the organisations that support Rawat's work. What is disturbing is that this change was made from the agreed baseline version without any justification in this Discussion section.--John Brauns 00:29, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  John - Sorry about that (newbie here).  I added that 'claimed to have been' without entering anything in the discussion page.  Sorry about that - will not do that again.  By the way, the reason for qualifying their roles is that most anyone can claim high-ranking positions.  The reality of their position might not be the same as they claimed.  Chuck 01:42, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former Followers' Status 

message: Andreis - I agree with your deletion of that sentence. Thank you for cleaning up the paragraph on the legal status of the Indian car accident.  I am a little new to this and should not have been so forcefull in debunking anyone who would ignore the court's decision.  Chuck 18:10, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of sentence... 

message: I removed the following sentence that can be re-added after providing references.
:"In October 2004, after being discovered that Macgregor lied under oath and after failing to appear in court, an Australian-wide arrest warrant was issued against him for criminal perjury. "
Andries 18:05, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "It is assumed that he left the country to avoid the arrest. "
Andries 18:05, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Andries, that is a fact. He knows that. The ex-premies know that. So what is the deal? An arrest warrant was issued and he failed to appear in court. I will remove just the last sentence about "it is assumed" --203.200.122.1 05:10, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: John MacGregor arrest warranty, please provide references

message: Thomas: linking to a user page from an article is quite unusual. By doing so you also eliminate the possibility of someone seeing that there is no article about Anton Hein and deciding to write one. --Zappaz 22:00, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linking to user pages 

message: Haven't been here for a while - good to see that article is pretty much as we agreed all those months ago! --John Brauns 17:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added link, copyright claim against prem-rawat-maharaji.info 

message: Added information from John Macgregor's affidavit. Some excerpts for your perusal. ≈ jossi ≈ 00:50, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
::JOHM MURRAY MACGREGOR, of Ratchadamnern Roda, Chiang Mai, Thailand, states/affirms on oath:
::1. I am a competent adult over the age of 18, and make this Affidavit, under no duress or coercion, and if called to testify as to the facts stated herein I could do so thruthfully
::4. Contrary to reports and claims published by myself and others I was never privy to "secret" or "inside: inform tion that was to be hidden and not available to other volunteers. 
::6. In 2001 I began to undergo emotional issues of a serious nature that caused me to suffer a severe lack of judgement. These emotional issues manifested in a combination of depression and unfocused anger. I began to communicate with members of a loose connection of individuals who call themselves "Ex-premies" as former students of Prem Rawat. These people maintain a sewries of internet web pages and chat rooms a goal of which is to create an atmosphere of ill will and malice toward Rawat and his students. I was one of the worst offenders.
::7. Members of the Ex-Premie Group validated my self deception that I was not responsible for my emotional issues or life choices, and that if any blame was to be laid, it was appropriately directed at Rawat and his students.
::8. I have had many conversations with the members of the Ex-premie Group, and have read hundred of their internet postings and writings. The goals of the Ex-Premie Group are often obsessive, malicious and destructive in nature. The Ex-Premie Groups, through the use of the internet interferes with the rights of people to experience their own spiritual discovery and for the purpose of harassing individuals who are students of Rawat's.
::9. The Ex-Premie group consists prominently of the following individuals: John Braun, Jim Heller, Marianne Bachers. Nick Wright and Jean-Michel Kahn amonst others.
::10. The Ex-Premie Group's actions have included the contacting of employers of students of Prem Rawat, letters to regulatory agencies and the media with unsupported allegations and rabid personal attacks on the character of individuals. Further instances include:
::- The internet publication of photographs and address of Rawat's private house with maps of children's bedroom;
::- The internet publication of personal details about Rawat's home life, and the private life of his family and children;
::- Contacting businesses with which the volunteer entities have contractual obligations and, attempting to intimidate them into avoiding these contracts;
::- Researching and publishing Prem Rawat's whereabouts;
::- The publication of entirely false stories of a defamatory nature on the internet and encouraging media to report these fabrications as fact.
::12. Based on no factual evidence, I arranged to publish in two Australian print media publications articles that Rawat and/or the volunteer entities were cult-like or involved in illegal or immoral activities. These implications are absolutely false and unfounded.
::13. I found that the more vitriolic and defamatory my writings about Rawat where, the more support and comfort I received from the Ex-Premie Group. Because I craved this attention and validation, I sought to have published further similar articles.
::15. In retrospect, I am of the opinion that many of these persons are irrational, obsessed, and motivated by ill-directed anger.
::16. I have reviewed the statements about Rawat, his students, the volunteer entities posted on the Ex-Premie Group's websites and find that when they purport to report on factual matters they are frequently false and defamatory, unsupported by actual fact basis, and motivated in many instances by hatred, ill will and spite.
::18. During the course of 2003/2004, I made allegations of impropriety against the claimants and their legal advisers. These allegations were the product of my overwrought state and they were wrong. These stories were designed to paint the Claimants as a dangerous shadowy  cult abusing the litigation process to silence criticism. I understand and acknowledge that the litigation was not directed towards silencing criticism, but instead Claimants were appropriately protecting themselves against the activities of an antagonistic group as would any other business people in the circumstances.
::20. In the course of my involvement with the Ex-Premie Group, I filed several complaints to various tax and regulatory bodies around the world, hoping to initiate expensive and burdensome investigation of Rawat and related volunteer entities. I acknowledge and admit that I had no factual basis upon which to make such allegations, and that the complains I filed were supported by unauthenticated, incomplete or out-of-context documents designed to paint a sinister picture.
::21. Since the litigation I have had the chance to reflect upon the activities of the Ex-Premie Group, my involvement with them, and their motivations. I have come to realize that my involvement was misguided, and that I have to accept personal responsibility for my own life choices and actions.
::22. I believe that I woe Prem Rawat , the claimants, their legal advisers and all of  Rawat's students and apology for my actions, and for allowing myself to be used by the Ex-Prfemie Group. I believe that persons have the right to chose their own path of spiritual discovery, and the right to leave a chosen path, but that people do not havce the right to incite hatred and interfere with other's choices.
::Affirmed by John Murray Macgregor on APril 27, 2005 at Bangkok, Thailand
:::Gosh, what a damning document, if I may say so. Read together with the apology he wrote in the chatroom, it provides a quite significant insight into the work of these critics and their psychological makeup. --ZappaZ  17:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sinister, sinister, goshgoshgosh. If i'd hold your balls in an iron grip baby, you'd sign anythingThomas h 18:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Macgregor affidavit 

message: Look, first you claim that these web pages are independent.
Then you claim here (look at the history) that you are not responsible for the content.
Then, when you are busted, you whine about your "privacy" even though you (or your erstwhile lawyers) need to go back and re-read the Terms and Conditions of your domian registration. This, coming from a man responsible for a website that has posted the work and home addresses of Rawat, Cainer, Glassner, Pascotto, and many many others. You've got to be kidding!
::The website prem-rawat-maharaji.info was conceived, designed and authored independently of me. Of course, as much of the content was based on testimonies on ex-premie.org those behind the site contacted me regarding the provenance of the information. When the site was due to go live, the issue of who would own the domain name and have the contract with the hosting company came up. The main people behind the site could not risk being exposed to attacks from the cult, so I volunteered to help. So yes, I am the legal owner of prem-rawat-maharaji.info, and will fulfill my responsibilities in this role, but this does not contradict any previous statements I have made. Regarding exposing personal details of premies, if you recall I closed down Forum 5 as a result of arguing to defend Charles Glasser's right to not have his details posted, so don't lay that one on me. I am unaware that personal details of my previous good friend, Jonathan Cainer, have ever been published. Pascotto's work details are matter of public record, but I am not aware of his home details ever being published. Regarding 'many many others', this is simply not true. All the ex-premie forums have had a strict policy of NOT publishing personal details without the person's permission. --John Brauns 06:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't caught me in a lie yet, as I try very hard to only tell the truth. In this case it's you yourself that are lying - read http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/copyright_text.htm#Pages for the list of pages Elan Vital claimed breached their copyright. These included many extracts from speeches by Rawat that are now embarrassing to him. It's sad for you that the most damning criticism of Rawat comes from Rawat's own words. --John Brauns 06:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Jossi has designed pro-Rawat websites. Jossi posts here in support of Rawat and Elan Vital. Jossi posts the link to Elan Vital's pdf regarding website ownership. Jossi replies to my demand for a source for the claim about website ownership on this talk page. Jossi's connection to Elan Vital and Rawat is far closer than my connection to the authors of prem-rawat-maharaji.info. Apart from the public information about my ownership of ex-premie.org, the information on Elan Vital's website that Jossi linked here is a clear breach of confidentiality, and Elan Vital's clear use of the DMCA to get that information is a misuse of the DMCA and I am advised is actionable. Whether I choose to sue Elan Vital is something I haven't yet decided on, but if I do, there is little doubt Elan Vital would lose. The DMCA was not intended to allow religious cults to gain confidential information. --John Brauns 06:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

text: As I've demonstrated here, I do not change stories or tell lies, so your accusation clearly IS a personal attack. What is also absurd here is that I, using my real name, and having published my home address, am arguing with some anonymous shadow called Nosmo Reyes who has provided no personal information about her/his qualifications to discuss these issues. Why not have the courage to put your real name behind your attacks? --John Brauns 06:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  John, Stop Making (Non) Sense! 

message: With regard to the meaning of "Balyogeshware", I thought that Bal=child yogesh= yogi and war means Lord, so this means child-Lord of the yogis. Andries 06:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Balyogeshwar, meaning of the name?

message: From Wikipedia:No personal attacks:
There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them.
I am excerising my right to delete any personal attacks by Andries from this and other pages. Until Andries finds a way to control to deal with editors in a civil manner, I will ignore any and all his comments and will not respond to questions. --ZappaZ  21:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not make a personal attack on you. I only wrote that your editing behavior in this article and some other articles is sometimes hypocritical, probably because you are blinded by your POV. Andries 21:08, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Ignoring will not solve anything because it will not change my opinion about your behavior. Do you think that you can punish me when you ignore me? What possibly could change my opinion about your behavior is addressing my concerns about your behavior. Andries 21:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

text: you know what I consider very incivile of you, that is the use of double standards when editing articles. Change that first and I will stop making disparaging comments about the quality of your edits. Andries 21:28, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Andries will need to stop making disparraging comments against me because to edit this encyclopedia requires 'civility. I have worked with many editors with which I have opposing POVs, but I have never, I mean never, had to deal with the animosity and lack of civility that Andries has demonstrated.  --ZappaZ  21:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I started being very polite to you but gradually I noticed that I have never met an editor whose behavior is so full of double standards when editing some articles. And yes, I think and still think that this needs to be told to you. Andries 21:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Andries need to stand corrected and do some research beyond just asking the expremies. Firstclass is a groupware and collaboration software, used by thousands of subscribers, all volunteers, according to ElanVital. --ZappaZ  14:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: okay, but the software is used to convey information about Rawat's and Elan Vital's activities to local leaders. It is not a discussion forum. Andries 17:35, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Andries needs to re-read the main Wikipedia policy of WP:NPOV. --ZappaZ  14:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please try to give a serious reply and try to be more specific in your response? When discussion stops, revert wars will start. What part of the NPOV policy are you referring to and what does it have to do with the order and the contents of this article. Articles should not contain unrelated contents. Criticism of the actiivities of critics of Rawat, in contrast to rebuttals, is basically unrelated to the title "Criticism of Prem Rawat". Thanks. Andries 18:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Andries was happy to support the break of consensus on other Prem Rawat articles, but wants to protect the consensus on this article. And then he accuses other editors of double-standards. --ZappaZ  14:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The current version of Prem Rawat is quite similar to that of the concensus version. The main additions are the Boeing episode and the summary of the criticisms of the scholarly criticisms after they had been expanded here. Your endorsement here of a totally different structure in this article is of a totally different magnitude of breaking the concensus. Andries 17:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Andries, this development of Zappaz into more and more extreme double standard and double moral attitudes becomes more and more frightening. He is or wants to be unaible to see anything different than that what his very narrow world view allows. Like on forum8 where there were both, compassionate  and angry voices concering McGregor, he is only able to see what fits into his agenda.  These behaviours can be traces of processes you can call pathological. I don't think there are any regulations in Wikipedia that deal with such matter. A person instrumentalizing this idea(Wikipedia) to lead his personal crusade against his declared enemies.Thomas h 05:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Please stop shouting (the highlight above, was copied from a Wikipedia policy article). Once you regain some level of civility I may be inclined to answr this question. --ZappaZ  14:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks and lack of civility