Talk:Biodiversity

message: — Assignment last updated by Gcandice1 (talk) 21:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: ANTH473 INLG480 Living Languages

message: — Assignment last updated by Rosaa00 (talk) 20:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Plant Ecology Winter 2023

message: — Assignment last updated by Sward2 (talk) 16:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Conservation biology

message: I think the bullet point list that follows under "The 11 main direct threats to conservation are" is too detailed, especially those italic keywords in brackets. I would also convert those 11 threats to main text (currently they are level-2 sub-headings).EMsmile (talk) 12:08, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI I timed out before I could study this but at least I located the diff where the quoted text was added.... NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:19, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, NewsAndEventsGuy. Seems like a "dubious", fly-by addition to me. I would be tempted to remove the entire list. It just doesn't feel right/encyclopedic. What do you and others think? EMsmile (talk) 12:15, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

text:  I don't understand: The reference that you added just takes me to here: https://www.iucnredlist.org/en I don't see where the text is included in the website? Also a website is not a great source as it may change its content over time. Were you meant to link to a particular report that is available on the website? I just find that long bullet point list not very encyclopedic (should it perhaps be in a sub-article rather?). If it's a direct copy & paste from a report then don't we run into problems with copyright? EMsmile (talk) 11:31, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where do we stand on this now? EMsmile (talk) 09:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 11 main direct threats to conservation are 

message: I've removed the further reading list as I don't think it adds any value for this kind of article. Important publications should rather be used for in-line citations (multiple times if they're very useful). 
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* D+C-Interview with Achim Steiner, UNEP: "Our generation's responsibility"
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EMsmile (talk) 09:22, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further reading list removed 

message: I think this sentence here is suffering from WP:OVERCITE: 
"." 
Can we remove some of the refs? Also, if we follow my suggestion about replacing this with an excerpt then this sentence would go but we can bring it back by ensuring this is briefly included in the lead at biodiversity loss if we think it's a crucial point. EMsmile (talk) 13:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be okay with removing source 4 and 5 and keeping the rest. Would this be sufficient? I will go ahead and do this now. I would argue that it is a crucial point as myriad peer-reviewed papers on biodiversity loss discuss population/consumption as significant factors. I would prefer to keep it here rather than shoehorning it into the lead of the other article, but would not oppose it so long as it remains in the article.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for that, C.J. Griffin. Ideally, we would find one high quality source that states exactly that ("Numerous scientists have said that"...) rather than creating a numerous list of citations... But I guess it's OK for now. If it's a crucial point for limiting biodiversity loss, then why should it not be included in the lead of biodiversity loss? I don't quite understand your concern about shoehorning it to there? EMsmile (talk) 09:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the material is disputed by some editors, I think that a few high quality sources are preferable to just one. The Stokstad source is the strongest, and I believe it alone satisfies the statement "Numerous scientists have said that..." you referenced above as myriad scientists contributed to the IPBES report. While it is a crucial point, I can see problems developing with the lead of Biodiversity loss if the material is included there, possibly resulting in edit conflicts and bloat from other editors pushing counterpoints. But if it is to be moved, I would suggest trimming the material to look like this: "Numerous scientists have said that human population growth and overconsumption are the primary factors in this decline. However, other scientists have criticized the assertation that population growth is a key factor for biodiversity loss." This I believe is succinct enough for the lead while giving due weight to the opposing view.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi C.J. Griffin sorry for the long silence (I was on holidays). I've now done some work to make the section on "biodiversity loss" more concise and I've also copied content about the causes across to the lead of biodiversity loss. Please check. I am undecided if it's OK to have the exact same paragraph about overpopulation in the lead of biodiversity loss as well as here, or if it's better to use the excerpt function and transcribing the lead, or part of the lead of biodiversity loss to here. What do you and others think about this? EMsmile (talk) 08:40, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: My biggest problem with the passage now is that there is undue weight being given to one perspective article which was written as a critical response to one of the four sources provided in the first sentence. I wasn't too picky about this before, but now that it has been placed in the lead of Biodiversity loss, I think it needs to be addressed. I think this sentence should be removed (In a scientific perspective published in Biological Conservation the scientists claim the main driver is the loss of habitat caused by "the growth of commodities for export, particularly soybean and oil-palm, primarily for livestock feed or biofuel consumption in higher income economies") and the quote added to the citation, as is the case in the first sentence where there are quotes included in the citations. If any source should be quoted in the text it should be the Science review of the IPBES report, as that mammoth report is now considered by many conservation biologists to have shifted scientific consensus on the issue. C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:05, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

text:  That's good. I've made some further small tweaks here and in the lead of biodiversity loss. How do you feel about my question regarding using an excerpt or not? I am undecided. Perhaps it's OK like it is now and we don't go down the route of using an excerpt. EMsmile (talk) 13:16, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is fine as is. Honestly I think excerpts are used too often. We don't need material repeated verbatim IMO.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:24, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  But as it stands now, the material is repeated in exactly the same way here and at biodiversity loss. Which means in future we'd be modifying it in two places. With the excerpt we would only modify it in one place in future and it gets mirrored in the other location. I do wonder if this entire section called "biodiversity loss" should just be replaced with the lead of biodiversity loss through an excerpt. Just pondering about pros and cons here. We can also leave it as it is for now and come back to it later. EMsmile (talk) 13:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, looking over the passage again, it is exactly the same per recent edits. However, that they may evolve over time in different directions or with different material is okay. If we simply remove the cited material that is present now only to replace it with an excerpt from Biodiversity loss, reliably sourced material would be lost, including entire paragraphs like the second one for example. This is another reason I strongly oppose using excerpts in articles. The section here should not look exactly the same as the lead of that article. It's boring, repetitive and lazy IMHO.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many refs for one statement 

message: I think the article is a bit on the long side now (54 kB). I think there is room for condensing which would also help to bring out the key points to the reader more clearly. For example, the section on "protected areas" can be shortened (there are sub-articles for the details). I have added the template "section sizes" to the top of the talk page. It helps to see which sections are large. However, it doesn't seem to update properly, as the section on biodiversity loss is still shown as large (22 kB) even though I recently culled it down. Strange. Does anyone know why that is? EMsmile (talk) 09:29, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential for shortening this article  

message: I've removed this text block (2 paragraphs) from the definitions section. In my opinion it doesn't fit there and I think it doesn't fit anywhere else in the article either. Perhaps fits more in a forestry article? The first para is unsourced (probably taken from FAO; probably same ref as given in the second para) and the second para is just one very long quote. It was all added in December 2020 by someone working for FAO in this edit.
"Forest biological biodiversity -
Forest biological diversity is a broad term that refers to all life forms found within forested areas and the ecological roles they perform. As such, forest biological diversity encompasses not just trees, but the multitude of plants, animals and microorganisms that inhabit forest areas and their associated genetic diversity. Forest biological diversity can be considered at different levels, including ecosystem, landscape, species, population and genetic. Complex interactions can occur within and between these levels. In biologically diverse forests, this complexity allows organisms to adapt to continually changing environmental conditions and to maintain ecosystem functions.
In the annex to Decision II/9 (CBD, n.d.a), the Conference of the Parties to the CBD recognized that: "Forest biological diversity results from evolutionary processes over thousands and even millions of years which, in themselves, are driven by ecological forces such as climate, fire, competition and disturbance. Furthermore, the diversity of forest ecosystems (in both physical and biological features) results in high levels of adaptation, a feature of forest ecosystems which is an integral component of their biological diversity. Within specific forest ecosystems, the maintenance of ecological processes is dependent upon the maintenance of their biological diversity."" EMsmile (talk) 13:40, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed text block on Forest biological biodiversity 

message: I think the lead needs further work to become a better summary of the article, roughly following the same order and weight of topics. Currently the lead talks too much about the situation during geologic timespans, not enough about the current situation. This needs to be reworked. Does anyone have time to give it a go? EMsmile (talk) 14:06, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your proposal to touch up the lead. Currently, I feel that it is somewhat unfocused and vague, especially when compared with the detail-rich remainder of the article. One sentence in particular that I find a little problematic in the lead is the last one that claims there are benefits as well as drawbacks to biodiversity... While the article goes into great depth about the beneficial ecosystem services associated with biodiversity, the part of the last sentence of the lead about the drawbacks either should be removed or supported with evidence. Lilladlili (talk) 03:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good point. I've made some changes to the last paragraph of the lead now. I have deleted that sentence that you had identified about "drawbacks" of biodiversity. Further work on the lead is needed. EMsmile (talk) 08:53, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The lead needs further work 

message: — Assignment last updated by Abanarsee (talk) 05:06, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Policy Analysis - Summer Session23

message: I've just removed the sub-headings in the section on biodiversity loss because if we had some sub-headings then we would also need "all" relevant sub-headings plus content but this kind of content is available at the sub-article biodiversity loss. I would actually be inclined to replace this content with an excerpt from the lead of biodiversity loss (after building up that lead and ensuring it's really good). Thoughts? This way we have to in future only update and maintain one article about biodiversity loss, not two. EMsmile (talk) 13:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've shortened and updated the "biodiversity loss" section a bit more. Also, I have moved it up so that it appears directly below the section on "number of species" which is more logical. I wonder though if it would perhaps be better to use an excerpt from biodiversity loss rather so that we don't have to update the figures on species lost in two articles instead of one. Thoughts? EMsmile (talk) 08:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortened section on biodiversity loss 

message: Dear 
Thanks for clarifying that this is your own writing. I now see that the your text from 2015 in this article had been copied by Loai Aljerf in 2017. 
https://medcraveonline.com/BIJ/biodiversity-is-key-for-more-variety-for-better-society.html#:~:text=The%20total%20amount%20of%20related,(trillion%20tons%20of%20carbon)  
 
The text in question which you would like retained still lacks proper referencing. Can you provide proper references?
I can see the need for 3 references as follows unless all 3 statements come from the same source.
 
Estimates on the number of Earth's current species range from 10 million to 14 million, of which about 1.2 million have been documented and over 86% have not yet been described. REFERENCE
The total amount of related DNA base pairs on Earth is estimated at 5.0 x 1037 and weighs 50 billion tonnes. In comparison, the total mass of the biosphere has been estimated to be as much as four trillion tons of carbon.  REFERENCE
In July 2016, scientists reported identifying a set of 355 genes from the last universal common ancestor (LUCA) of all organisms living on Earth. REFERENCE
 
The second paragraph is in my opinion “off topic” and would be better placed in another WP article dealing with fossils. The text is as follows: 
The age of Earth is about 4.54 billion years. The earliest undisputed evidence of life dates at least from 3.7 billion years ago, during the Eoarchean era after a geological crust started to solidify following the earlier molten Hadean eon. There are microbial mat fossils found in 3.48 billion-year-old sandstone discovered in Western Australia. Other early physical evidence of a biogenic substance is graphite in 3.7 billion-year-old meta-sedimentary rocks discovered in Western Greenland. More recently, in 2015, "remains of biotic life" were found in 4.1 billion-year-old rocks in Western Australia. According to one of the researchers, "If life arose relatively quickly on Earth...then it could be common in the universe." (REF 11)
 
Ref 11 that comes at the end here is as follows: https://web.archive.org/web/20151023200248/http://apnews.excite.com/article/20151019/us-sci--earliest_life-a400435d0d.html
This refers to fossil rocks and I believe is off-topic for the biodiversity article.
Best wishes ASRASR (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely with User:ASRASR that this content did not belong in the lead. I have moved it to the main text for now. It might not even belong there either (or at least not in that much detail) and might suit a pre-historic article better (history of live??). Very important: the lead is meant to be a summary of the article, as per WP:LEAD, so it should not contain content that is not also in the main body. A telltale sign is always when a paragraph uses references that appear only in the lead but not in the main body. - Instead, I have added a bit more content about biodiversity loss to the lead, using content from the main body. EMsmile (talk) 21:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits to the text in the lead 

message: — Assignment last updated by Warmedforbs (talk) 01:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Applied Plant Ecology Winter 2024

message: I've removed the recently added section on regime shifts (copied below) for the following reasons:
* This is more about changes to ecosystems and habitats but not specifically about biodiversity.
* The biodiversity article is already on the long side so we should be very carful before we add new sections. Perhaps a condensed version of this could be integrated in a suitable location somewhere.
* Why the very old references? Is there not something more recent available which is more accessible for our readers?  
* The text is not well written, is using a lot of jargon, language is not lay-person friendly. Some words are duplicated (see first sentence: when when), although that would be easy to fix. 
Regime Shifts: 
Biodiversity is impacted when when persistent structural and functional changes occur in ecosystems. Such changes can be between alternative stables states of ecosystems, or due to external shocks that cause secondary succession.Holling, C.S. (1973) Resilience and stability of ecological systems. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 4, 1–23 Among documented regime shifts are woody plant encroachment that can represent a change from open grassland to woodland as well as the change of coral-dominated reefs to a regime dominated by fleshy algae.  EMsmile (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Section about "regime shifts" removed