Talk:Roman Ghetto

message: According to the Let's Go guide, the Jews were forced to hear mass on Sundays at Sant'Angelo in Pescheria.
Is it so or was it on Shabbats?
--Error 02:23, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would it be on Saturdays, i.e. why would they tailor the situation to Jewish custom?  I thought the idea was to convert them.  I guess doing it on Saturday would have the "benefit" of preventing them from celebrating Shabbat. --Saforrest 01:18, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

text: No, it's wrong. The Jews were not forced to hear mass, but the so called "prediche coatte" (enforced sermons). This usage started with Pope Gregorio XIII (1572-1585). The sermons took place near S. Angelo and, later, near the church of San Gregorio della Divina Pietà (still existing, near Ponte Fabricio). Above the church was put a biblical inscription in Hebrew and Latin (Isaiah 65,2—3), which describes the Jewish people as stubborn and following a wrong way. It is told that the Jews during the Sermon closed their ears with wax. alex2006 05:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Preaching

message: I removed the sentence about the more liberal attitude of Leo XIII in comparison with Pius IX. This had absolutely nothing to do with the demolition of the Ghetto after 1870. As everyone knows, Italy during those years was ruled by a liberal, anticlerical political class, which was completely uninterested in the ideas of the Church about the destiny of the quarter and of the Jewish community.
alex2006 13:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leo XIII, Pius IX and the Ghetto 

message: The requirement that Jews live within the Ghetto was abolished when the last remnant of the Papal States was overthrown on September 20, 1870.
Actually: No. It was Pope Pius IX. himself. He did reestablish the ghetto after gaining back power from the revolutionary republic at the beginning of the 1850s, but it was on his order that the quite out-dated inclosing practice finally was abolished somewhen in the 1860s. The Curia expected two things: that the Jews would all move out most rapidly, and that the Christians would possibly riot; that's why the walls were broken down in a night. Surprisingly, noone rioted, and hardly any Jew moved out, as they said: "We have been dwelt here because of force for centuries, no we will stay because of love." (source: Reinhard Raffalt, Concerto Romano.) --84.154.43.58 (talk) 13:21, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong information 

message: I'm sure the artichoke discussion will be resolved as pleasantly as this one. Yes, I mean a historic map of the ghetto. I noticed this, and wondered if a version of it with the area of the ghetto coloured (in yellow?) would be a useful addition here (it would take a couple of minutes to do that). Or might there be a better map that shows the names of the streets and so on? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hallo Justlettersandnumbers, you caught me again! I am the uploader... :-) Yes, I also had this is mind (it is on the front overleaf of the book of Pietrangeli). I think that coloring it could be a good tentative solution. In Rome (at the moment I am in Helvetia) I have most of my roman books, and I can see there if I can upload a particular of a map of 1878 (Spithover), just before the demolition with all the street names. BTW, if you color it, are you going to show the original area or that with the 19th century addition (Via della Reginella)? Alex2006 (talk) 11:55, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: On that I would want to be totally guided by your library and your local knowledge and advice. I suggest that if a map from 1777 is used as the basis, then the limits of the ghetto should be shown as they were at that date. Is this anywhere near correct in your opinion, for example? I also thought of using this as a basis for something similar, but the limits and gates are less easy to distinguish. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The map is absolutely correct for that period (the later addition in 19th century was to the north, Via della reginella): the other one, as you say, is less clear. I added also some info about boundaries, area, and population: feel free to correct or discuss them if you have better sources. Moreover, I wrote a little article about the church of San Gregorio, just outside the Ghetto, where the Jews were forced to hear Sermons, and I linked it here. P.S. I find yellow nice: I hope only that some Jew does not find it offensive... Alex2006 (talk) 13:57, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: On that basis I think I will include it in the article; it can always be modified or replaced later. My doubt was this: the map does not show Piazza Giudea (hmm, what a strange spelling for that word!) divided by the wall, as the article now says (twice!) that it was; and nor does the 1843 Monaldini map. Both clearly show the gate at the southern corner of the piazza. On the other hand it might be possible to read from the map that Piazza di Cenci was divided by the wall. Thoughts? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hallo Justlettersandnumbers, </br> as you know, the Jews were in Sant'Angelo (moving from Trastevere) already before the establishment of the Ghetto. The main square of their quarter at that time was already known as "Platea Judeorum". This square was divided in two when the ghetto was created. After that, the denomination of "Piazza Giudea" ( :-)) applied to the 2 piazzas which you can see on the map: The one with the fountain of Della Porta ("Piazza Giudea esterna" or di Santa Maria del Pianto) which actually lied outside the Ghetto (you can see it in this etching of Vasi with a strange title :-)), and "Piazza Giudea interna" (also named Piazza di Mercatello) which was inside, south of the first one, and was separated from the former by a Gate. From here started the main road of the Ghetto, Via rua (or Ruga). The other square bordering the wall south west of Piazza Giudea interna is Piazza delle Scole (here in a picture before the demolition), so called because there lied the 5 Scole (del Tempio, Catalana, siciliana, Castigliana and Nova) where the Jews prayed. This toponym has been restored some years ago by the city. Don't forget that what we see in the map is the plan of the quarter more than two hundred years after its establishment. Houses were demolished and rebuilt, and at the end the wall was hidden by them almost everywhere (as you can see in Vasi's etching). You can find all this info for example in Pietrangeli, Delli or Gnoli. A last word about the spellings: when the Italians annexed Rome, one of the first things that they did, was a commission to change the name of the streets and squares: so they "washed them in Arno": for example, Vicolo dei Matriciani (a word that in Roman dialect has the apheresis) became Vicolo degli Amatriciani (and so we lost also our bucatini...); Vicolo del Micio (near i Coronari) became Vicolo Domizio, and (keep your belt fastened :-)) vicolo del Carciofolo became vicolo del Carciofo, and so on. As you can see, there is no big difference between us and the native Americans :-) That's why I fight (all in vain :-) ) to keep the last rests of this patrimony alive... Alex2006 (talk) 10:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: I cannot understand how an article about the Jewish Ghetto in Rome can be complete without providing some insight into the fate of the Roman Jewish population during the 2nd World War. Given that there appears to be a sufficient Jewish population in the area now to sustain well-established cultural and culinary activity - there must be a story around their survival that needs telling - even in brief - to provide historic context?
:I think that this happened since the Ghetto has been described in this article until its demolition. You can find some info in the article about quarter which encloses the former ghetto. Alex2006 (talk) 11:00, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holocaust 

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thread_title:  External links modified