Talk:Baroque architecture

message: Since Ghirlandajo repeatedly removes examples from Lithuania and asked for explanation, here you go.
While both St. Peter and St. Paul church in Vilnius and Pažaislis monastery in Kaunas are indeed outstanding for their architecture, the primary point for having them mentioned in the article is that they exemplify geographic diversity of baroque in the Commonwealth. Nevertheless, both are important and deserve separate articles on their own. The Pažaislis complex is one of the most magnificent examples of Italian baroque in Eastern Europe both for its outside and interior. Unfortunately some of the stukko inside were damaged when Russians closed the monastery in 1832 and converted it later into an Orthodox church. Nevertheless the church was renovated in 1970s and remains famous for its exterior architecture and the fresco in its dome. Vilnius has abundance of baroque churches, St. Peter and St. Paul basilique is mentioned as an example only. It is outstanding primarily for its extremely rich stucco decorations. --Lysy (talk) 09:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, now is see that these churches deserve a mention. If you think they deserve separate articles, you are welcome to start them. --Ghirlandajo 09:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples of baroque architecture Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

message: Let's review Garcilaso's additions:
In Madrid, a vernacular Baroque with its roots in Herrera and in traditional brick construction was developed in the Plaza Mayor and in the Royal Palace of El Buen Retiro. This sober brick Baroque of the 17th century is still well represented in the streets of the capital in palaces and squares.
:Please don't try to bring the article to the level of a Madrid guidebook with this touristy stuff. You live in Madrid, don't you? I wouldn't say that Madrid is the most Baroque of the European cities and that its importance for the development of the style should be highlighted in a separate passage. We should rather add separate passages about Prague or Munich, whose Baroque heritage is even more impressive, and then the article will be endless. I illustrated Madrid's baroque architecture with its most ingenious structure, Hospicio de San Fernando. The capital may have many other fine Baroque structures but so do other Spanish cities. I don't think that Madrid is exceptional among them and that El Buen Retiro stands out as beyond comparison from the European perspective. It's hardly instructive to mechanically list Baroque structures of Madrid, especially if you may see the likes of them in other parts of Europe. One striking - from the architectural/artistic not town-planning/touristy point of view - example is enough. All the rest should go to Spanish Baroque or to Madrid. That's where your passage should be moved. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I keep this passage, although its proper place is Churrigueresque and the Transparente should be discussed in the article about Baroque sculpture rather than architecture. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The Royal Palace, a derivative structure of little originality, is mentioned for the fourth time in the article! That's what I call maltreating the readers. La Granja is indeed too French to be mentioned in the brief outline of Spanish Baroque and its indebtedness to "the heritage of the Moorish occupation" is not apparent to me. As for the "Spanish Versailles", every European state of the time, from vast Poland and Russia to the political dwarfs like Anhalt and Mecklenburg, boasted its own "Versailles". If you think it's amusing to turn the article into an endless list of Baroque residences, adding that Nordkirchen is known as Versailles of Westphalia and Mannheim was the Versailles of the Palatinate, that Herrenhausen was the Versailles of Hanover and Schleissheim Palace was the Versailles of Bavaria, etc, etc, I think this idea is exceedingly boring and refer you to "The Would-Be Versailles" section of Versailles Palace. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Madrid Baroque 

message: Hallelujah! At last Your Higness descend to my level and argue with his wide knowledge, and not only with force arguments! This really a good step, and I encourage you to continue in this way, but better next time before some weeks of authoritary unexplained reversions. Now, let's see how solid are your arguments. I will start with content and then I will answer on form:
1-Madrid. Again you establish yourself as the Only Truth Owner. Madrid may not be the most Baroque City in the World, but its inclussion in this article has nothing to do with "touristic stuff", but with impression that in a general overview, the characteristical local branches should be quotated. If other cities deserve more attention, please, don`t neglect "your" article and do it. Mentioning Hospicio de San Fernando portal (and assertinig that all Churriguerseque is as plain as this and other portals) is not enough to have a general view of Madrid. This is as inconsistent as saying that mentioning the building at Rue Franklin of Perret is enough representation of Paris, and that Art Nouveau from Guimard has no place in an article about Architecture at the turn of the century, because all are in the same city.
I wouldn't say that Madrid is the most Baroque of the European cities and that its importance for the development of the style should be highlighted in a separate passage.Ghirlandajo
I don´t know how much you know about the stuff, but have a look on what Fernando Chueca Goitia,, the undiscussed most prestigious Historian of Spanish Architecture says about the subject: "(...)También Salamanca modula de manera personal su barroco de piedra dorada, heredero, del plateresco...y así una serie de grupos y subgrupos y variedades infinitas, sin olvidar el papel muy importante que adquiere el barroco madrileño como síntesis nacional, sin dejar de perder acento local. Por primera vez el arte madrileño, el arte de la capital, empieza a jugar un incuestionable papel rector." (Fernando Chueca Goitia, Historia de la arquitectura española, tomo II, Fundación Cultural Santa Teresa de Ávila,  2001. pg. 251) Says that among all the regional varieties of Barroque, Madrid established as both the undiscussed leader and the synthesis of Spanish Baroque, with its local accent. I don´t say that it should have a separate passage in the article, only that the particular brick Baroque has nothing to do with Churrigueresque and nothing to do with European influences, and it should be quotated just to have a more real view of Baroque in Spain. I know that it is very common to ignore other aspects but the more spectacular, but the only porpose of quotating Madrid is having constance of a spreaded particular branch of Baroque. Personally, I don´t like it much but it exists.
2-About Granada Charterhouse and Transparente, congratulations for having learned about their existence and importance at last, but with your expression  I keep this passage, although its proper place is Churrigueresque and the Transparente should be discussed in the article about Baroque sculpture rather than architecture., you again make clear your lack of knowledge about the subject. The Transparente IS architecture as well as sculpture, the webpage you used to inform yourself of its existence shows a partial view. Have a look at these:
,
and note that Sir Nikolaus Pevsner, in its "An Outline of European Architecture" (Penguin, Middlesex, 1943), as an outline, not talking of all regional forms, but only of outstanding buildings, he starts the Baroque talking about Maderna, Borromini, Bernini, Vignola, Cortona, then the Scala Regia, and then, hocus pocus!...Toledo Transparente, and Granada Charterhouse. Then he continues with Guarino Guarini, and so on. Have a look at what some of what he says: The most outstanding example on Spanish soil is Narciso Tomé`s Transparente in Toledo Cathedral(...)Catholic orthodoxy objected to people walking along the ambulatory behind the Blessed Sacrament. So an ingenious plan was worked out by which the Sacrament could be seen(...) from the ambulatory as well. (...) Attention was focused on to the Sacrament by richly decorated columns. They are linked up with larger outer columns by cornices curved upwards. These curves and the relief scenes in perspective on the panel below give the illusion -in the same way as Bernini´s colonnade in the Scala Regia- that the distance from front to back of the altar is far deeper than it really is.(He continues talking, about wonders, miraclous effects... and then:) What the ingenious architect has done is to to take out the masonry between the ribs of half a gothic vault(...)And when to discover this source of magic light, we turn round, away from the altar, we see in the dazzling light beyond the angels Christ himself...(and so on). He talks about Spatial extremism, pulling a whole room into a vast stupefying ornament... I advise to you to read in in its whole, to see the admiration and respact of Pevsner for the architect who did it, as well as again the Fernando Chueca Historia de la Arquitectura Española to get more details of both architecture pieces and to understand their importance. So let me see, you have being blindly reverting the addition of two of the most widely internationally recognised spatial achievements of Spanish Baroque, because you didn´t even know of their existence. It is not the first time it happens with edition of new-for-you styles edited by me, but I hope it is the last.
3 La Granja, Aranjuez, Royal Palace... The problem is different here. We both agree in the inclusion of those buildings, but here it is only a problem of form, and of WP:OWN. Your redaction of the article, is nice, congratulations. But if you want it to be untouched, don´t submit it. With all your prestige you won´t find problems in editing a book, or writing articles in magazines, but if you have, you can also write your own webpage, called, "Ghirlandajo´s Corner", or something similar, to express all your literary achievements. But Wikipedia is different. You are not the owner of the article. If I think that Spanish significative monuments should be quotated in the Spanish section better than in Scandinavia's, my point of view is as legitimate as yours, and expressions like "a derivative structure of little originality,
" are purely subjective personal assertions. I could submit you to the same proceeding you are doing to me and delete all the buildings and expressions I dont agree or just don´t know,  or request your sources for each expression you make. The fact is that, as it was, your Perfect-untouchable article, was incomplet, and gave a false view of Baroque. Granada Charterhouse and Transparente are in the article for their own right and merits, not because you save my live. I will follow George Mikes` advises and won´t say "Don´t bully me", but will use instead "I repudiate your petulant expostulations". Yours sincerely, --Garcilaso 11:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Answer to Ghirlandajo

message: I removed tour-guide language, if that is OKBrosi 19:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, much better. Marcus1234 09:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  revised malta text 

message: According to the text "There is little Baroque about Dutch architecture of the 17th century. The architecture of the first republic in Northern Europe was meant to reflect democratic values by quoting extensively from classical antiquity." The first sentence is more or less accurate, but I am more concerned with "democratic values" This is a modern phraseology.Brosi 13:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "democratic values" 

message: I think it might make more sense to divide the article into areas of Europe rather than empires/kingdoms etc. unless a particular country or state was known to have a particular style? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 13:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections

message: I think this article needs editing, because it is not very readable in its current state. A few examples:
* "This explains why the Baroque style, though enthusiastically developed in Spain, was to a large extent, in Spain, an architecture of surfaces and façades, unlike in France and Austria where we see the construction of numerous huge palaces and monasteries. In contrast to Spain, the French, under Jean-Baptiste Colbert (1619–1683), the minister of finance, had begun to industrialize their economy and thus were able to become initially at least the prime benefactors of the flow of wealth. While this was good for the building industries and the arts, the new wealth created an inflation, the likes of which had never been experienced before. Basically, the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. Rome was known just as much for its new sumptuous churches as for its vagabonds." As I see it, the bold parts are completely irrelevant to the article.
* "There is an incipient playfulness with the rules of classic design, still maintaining rigor. They had domed roofs." What?
* "However, Austria came soon to develop its own characteristic Baroque style during the last third of the 17th century. Johann Bernhard Fischer von Erlach was impressed by Bernini." This is the first time that either of them is named, but neither of them is introduced. The article should at least mention their profession and their country.
I've been so free to add the copyedit template to the page. ThomasTenCate (talk) 08:45, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy-editing needed

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thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: The Queluz National Palace is featured in a picture on this page, but is it Baroque? The article on the palace describes it as "One of the last great Rococo buildings to be designed in Europe". Its article does mention how it was heavily influenced by Baroque architecture (as was Rococo). Maybe it would be better to put a different photo of the Palace, since this current one seems to exemplify the Rococo more so than the Baroque?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helixer (talk • contribs) 04:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queluz National Palace 

message: I think this article needs a bit of cleaning-up when it comes to the pictures. In my opinion it's really cluttered. I was just dropping by to check some things about baroque architecture in Scandinavia and there's a picture of an unnamed French chateau there... I don't know what other people think, do you also find it a bit cluttered? Thanks. Yakikaki (talk) 07:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it has too many pictures and breaks the guideline at MOS:IMAGES about sandwiching of text between pictures and probably the one at WP:Galleries on indiscriminate use. It needs a serious prune of the images in the text and consideration of how the galleries are used.--SabreBD (talk) 08:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cluttered 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm puzzled why an editor changed baroque to Baroque with a capital B throughout the article.  It's not a proper name, and it's not spelled with a capital B in either Webster's or the Oxford English dictionary, nor in the French Wikipedia or French sources.  I think it should be spelled baroque. 
Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 08:27, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Look up Gothic architecture article. Rantemario (talk) 11:09, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an interesting point.  Gothic is always updcase, because it comes from a proper noun, the Goths, but Baroque seems to be acceptable either way. The Oxford English dictionary and other sources I looked at it have it lower case, but that seems to be when the word is used as an adjective, not a movement.   Art Nouveau seems to be always upper case, like Art Deco.  So if it's referring specifically to the movement, I think you're right, it should be Baroque. 
Cordially,   SiefkinDR (talk) 18:31, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Baroque with a capital B?  

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thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Architectural History