Talk:Philip the Arab

message: The caption of one of the figures says "Rock-face relief at Naqsh-e Rustam of Shapur I (on horseback) with Philip the Arab and Emperor Valerian kneeling in surrender to the Persian king.". However this is historically impossible, since Philip was emperor from 244 to 249, and Valerian was captured by Shapur in 260.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by FRZH (talk • contribs) 08:24, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The text says:
:The uprising was crushed and Philip nominated Gaius Messius Quintus Decius as governor of the province. Future events would prove this to be a mistake. Pacantius' revolt was not the only threat to his rule: in the East, Marcus Iotapianus led another uprising in response to the oppressive rule of Priscus and the excessive taxation of the Eastern provinces.
I underlined what I consider rubbish. You cannot predict anything in retrospect unless you made a documented statement beforehand, that proves that you already predicted beforehand. Otherwise it becomes just a matter of imagination. It could very well be that Phil knowingly made a bad decision because the alternatives were worse, or that events that none could foresee, created the new rebellion (however unlikely). If we weren't there ourselves, we can't in retrospect evaluate acts and motivations of other people that had other facts available, unless we go there and simply ask them. Said: Rursus 09:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Allknower identified!

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Philipnote.JPG

message: I've moved the following bit to the talk page:
:"Arabic oracles speak of a local Sheikh, Uthaina, who was reported to have risen from the ranks to command the Eastern armies of the Roman Empire. This strengthens the possibility of Philip's Arab descent to some degree."
The information was added by an anonymous user quite a while ago and has been challenged but unreferenced for four months. If anybody has heard of what those Arabic oracles went on about, please feel free to add the ref. Trigaranus (talk) 18:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oracle 

message: Just a heads-up. I've been working on a "Philip the Arab and Christianity" article in my userspace here. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 19:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved it to mainspace now. It's at Philip the Arab and Christianity. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 09:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice 

message: This article has a number of statements that I cannot verify in any published source. These include:
* "he had family who had originated in the Arabian peninsula, and who were believed to be distant descendants of the prestigious Baleed family of Aleppo";
* "it is documented that Rome used the Ghassan tribe from the Azd of Yemen as vassals to keep the neighboring northern Arabs in check";
* "according to numismatic evidence they had a daughter called Julia Severa or Severina, whom the ancient Roman sources don't mention";
* "Philip became a member of the Praetorian Guard during the reign of the emperor Alexander Severus"
Unless someone can provide some reliable secondary source that confirms these statements, I shall delete them in the coming days as I am updating the article very shortly. Oatley2112 (talk) 22:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I pretty much doubt there are. I've checked for two of them ( and ) and it of course turned out that they were added by the extremely helpful anonymous contributors to the article. (Yaay.) The one with the Praetorian Guard does not seem unreasonable as a career, but I don't think there is any ancient author confirming this. Trigaranus (talk) 23:32, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I thought as much. Agree about the Praetorian Guard, but making the claim that it specifically occured under the reign of Alexander Severus is something that should have a specific source or be deleted. I mean, it may have equally occured under the reign of Maximinus Thrax or even Gordian III, if it happened at all. Oatley2112 (talk) 04:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job, thanks! Trigaranus (talk) 06:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced material 

message: One of the references cites the Historia Augusta, Since the Historia Augusta is a hoax, we probably need to remove claims sourced to it, directly, or indirectly. I'm not sure how to identify secondary sources using the Historia Augusta, but they ought to be removed as well. [One place the RS standards get in the way - having both PS and SS for each source would help]. 71.191.233.216 (talk) 17:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not that simple. While the Historia Augusta (HA) is a hoax, there is still enormous debate amongst historians about how much of the material is based upon legitimate sources, and without doubt there are nuggets of truth buried within it - even someone like Ronald Syme, who takes the minimilist position, acknowedges that much, and his position is by no means accepted by all historians. And there are certain things which we take as fact that are only mentioned in the HA, such as the Antonine Wall being built by Antoninus Pius. So we cannot completely dismiss the HA as a source. That being said, it should be treated with extreme caution, and should be used only when verified by a secondary source. In the case of Philip, the lack of any other primary material makes a reliance upon the HA somewhat unavoidable. However, there is currently only one reference to the HA in the article, which is Philip's use of men and creatures from Gordian III's planned Persian Triumph for the one thousand year anniversary of the foundation of the city. I don't believe this fact is disputed by any current historian. Oatley2112 (talk) 23:09, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historia Augusta sourced material 

message: The bas relief depicting Philip the Arab and a supposed Valerian is erroneous - Valerian's capture came almost 20 years after Philip's death, so any suggestion that the bas relief depicts Philip's handing over of Valerian in some form is false.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.138.237 (talk) 22:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bas Relief Error 

message: Somebody keeps deleting the Arabic translation, or at least does so from time to time. 
I seriously do not think I would have to post this, but I will do so before getting into a edit war. 
Arabic may not have been the official language of Syria at the of Philip the Arab's reign, but Philip the Arab was an ARAB, and is a noted figure among both Arab World history AND Roman History, regardless of whether he spoke Arabic or not and even I highly doubt that Philip ever spoke Arabic or a dialect of it since Arabs in the Roman Empire were very Latinized people.
Arabic is the language of Syria, TODAY and Philip the Arab is AN IMPORTANT HISTORICAL FIGURE IN SYRIA. So an Arabic translation for one IS necessary not to mention that its Wikipedia tradition to post people's names in the respective language of their ethnic group or even nationality (in this case). PacificWarrior101 (talk) 21:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is one of the most ridiculous comments I've seen. Romans knew the difference between different populations and knew what an Arab was, and according to both written and epigraphical evidence much of Syria was inhabited by Arabs, starting in the 9th c. BC and becoming a major ethnic element by the late first century BC. During Philip's time Arabs were living in many Syrian cities and had done so for centuries, and just below Syria the province of Arabia was described as the country of the Arabs. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 11:59, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

text: In fact Arabs were among the native Syrian populations who defended AGAINST the Assyrian Invasion of Syria. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 12:05, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

text: The Nabataeans are descended from the Arabian Thamud, so that makes them ARAB. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You can say whatever, though.  That's why we require all claims to be sourceable and citable.  Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:55, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Arabic Translation Exists for a Reason...... 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: We don't usually refer to the emperors sitting on thrones, do we? I'd suggest changing the name of this section. - Eponymous-Archon (talk) 16:41, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Throne"? 

message: The source used in this article by Bowersock clearly indicates that the Emperor was of Arab background so there's clearly a contradiction between what this article states and what Bowersock says. GoulGoul1 (talk) 16:35, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philip the Arab 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "According to Eusebius (Ecc. Hist. VI. 34), Philip was a Christian ..."
Eusebius writes: "It is reported that he, being a Christian (κατέχει λόγος Χριστιανὸν ὄντα)", "It is said (λέγεται) that he obeyed" but not "he was a Christian". Pilot Pirx (talk) 11:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious beliefs 

message: Philip the Arabian is cited in his wikipage as being an "ethnic arab" and five sources are cited that supposedly say Philip was an ethnic Arab but when you look up those sources none really say that.
 
Source 1 on page 121 does not say that, it actually just says that he was an "Arab" not an "ethnic arab",  https://books.google.se/books?id=L4NBigJ3NF4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Bowersock,+Glen+(1994).+Roman+Arabia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj687b3h7PvAhVus4sKHau2AoIQ6AEwAHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=Philip&f=false 
Source 2 on page 418 actually says "It is unlikely that Philip felt in any way "Arab" in the modern sense of the word" https://books.google.se/books?id=73-JAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA418&lpg=PA418&dq=both+the+Severan+emperors+and+Philip+the+Arab+often+depict+Syrian+deities,+such+as+Hadad+and+Atargatis),+it+is+impossible+to&source=bl&ots=nSMhFS2tBL&sig=ACfU3U18NJ1bWW-zQx-jZy7UOX0BeEJ3QQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS_-_-iLPvAhUupIsKHRyHBUAQ6AEwAHoECAIQAw#v=onepage&q=both%20the%20Severan%20emperors%20and%20Philip%20the%20Arab%20often%20depict%20Syrian%20deities%2C%20such%20as%20Hadad%20and%20Atargatis)%2C%20it%20is%20impossible%20to&f=false
Source 3 in page 36 the author says "If Septimus Severus was part Arab and part Christian, Philip was wholly Arab and wholly Christian" https://books.google.se/books?redir_esc=y&id=W4H97SA6pMAC&q=Philip#v=snippet&q=Philip%20Arab&f=false which is totally inaccurate since Severus was not part Arab and the author is mistaking Arab with Punic-Phoenician here. 
Source 4, the least credible of the sources since Britannica Online here https://www.britannica.com/biography/Philip-Roman-emperor does not cite an actual author/historian cited for such claim, says "Philip was of Arab descent" (although the claim that "Philip was of Arab descent" doesn't necessarily mean Britannica is saying he was an "ethnic Arab" but of "Arab descent") 
Source 5, on page 88 says that Philip was an Arab from the Transjordan area in  https://books.google.se/books?redir_esc=y&id=sP_2-y9zKfgC&q=Philip+Arab#v=onepage&q=Philippus%20Arab&f=false but it also doesnt actually says he was an "ethnic Arab"
Not only do none of these sources really say Philip the Arab was an ethnic Arab or even that he himself identified as an Arab, but other sources that are not cited claim he was of Syro-Phoenician descent:
Various historians affirming that his cognomen "Arabus" has nothing to with him being an ethnic Arab/ethnic Bedouin or him ever identifying as one such as page 284 in https://books.google.se/books?
id=fXzC52bDVdgC&pg=PA284&dq=Julius+Philippus+native+of+Bostra+Arab+Bedouin&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihpKiog7PvAhXRK3cKHVhEDtsQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=Julius%20Philippus%20native%20of%20Bostra%20Arab%20Bedouin&f=false
and page 271 herehttps://books.google.se/books?id=WJcxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA271&dq=Julius+Philippus+Roman+Arabia+Syrian&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjinfzAhLPvAhXGAxAIHazwBOcQ6AEwAHoECAMQAg#v=onepage&q=Julius%20Philippus%20Roman%20Arabia%20Syrian&f=false
In page 18 of the book "Philip the Arab: A Study in Prejudice with link https://books.google.se/books?id=MmdoAAAAMAAJ&q=the+epithet+Arab+is+joined+to+Philip+slaves&dq=the+epithet+Arab+is+joined+to+Philip+slaves&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjO2sO9hrPvAhXBlYsKHb9vAycQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg author Yāsamīn Zahrān states and I quote: 
"The epithet 'Arab' is joined to Philip's name in a pejorative sense. The word was a term of abuse, had unpleasant connotations to a civilized man, and was a common name for slaves. 2 In the Sibylline oracle, Philip is called 'Syrian' instead of 'Arabian', disregarding the Roman administrative units: Coele Syria"
This source on page 70 identifies Philip the Arab as ethnically Syrian are https://books.google.se/books?id=5-MJEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA70&dq=Emperor+Philip+the+Arab+Syrian&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixpO2Ph7PvAhVOtIsKHbAkB2gQ6AEwAXoECAgQAg#v=onepage&q=Emperor%20Philip%20the%20Arab%20Syrian&f=false
This source in page 50 also says Philip the Arab was the son of a native Syrian https://books.google.se/books?id=xTVmAAAAMAAJ&dq=Emperor+Philip+the+Arab+Syrian&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Philip+Syrian
User User: Julia Domna Ba'al is going around cherry picking sources violating WP:CHERRYPICKING and distorting what the sources the user adds to cite her disruptive edits actually say violating WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and WP:OR in order to push her Arabist/Arabism agenda and get away with her cultural appropriation of ancient personalities of Syro-Phoenician descent/origin to make it seem as if it is an ethnically Arab legacy. In almost of all the "citations" the user does, the user doesnt link the source so that it can be verified easily and the disruptive editing less easily seen and reported. 
 
User: Julia Domna Ba'al and other meat puppet editors and tag teammates of this user have done the same on a lot of the personalities of Phoenician/Syro-Phoenician descent from Hellenized Phoenicia and Roman Syria/Roman Phoenicia for quite a while now by taking away their Syro-Phoenician ancestry from their Wikipages and/or adding that they were "Arab", "ethnic Arab", "Nabatean" or "Syrian" (while linking it to todays Syrians which is not the same as Syro-Phoenician) while adding "sources" that supposedly say that as can be seen as well many many of their edits. 
All the personalities from Hellenized or Roman Phoenicia and of Phoenician, Punic, Sabian (which has been established they were originally from Mount Lebanon and Baalbeck by plenty of authors) on which this "Arab", "ethnic Arab", "Nabatean" or "Syrian (linking to todays Syrians not Syro-Phoeniians) is being added by User: Julia Domna Ba'al and the user's teammates are also being listed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrians#Notable_people and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syrians#Leaders_and_politicians as if their ancient Syro-Phoenician ancestry is the same as todays Syrians which is incorrect and disruptive editing to steal the ancient Syro-Phoenician legacy and achievements for their Arab and today's Syrians friends. 
  
This disruptive editing on these ancient personalities Wikipages have been going on for quite a while now and User: Julia Domna Ba'al and the other editors making this WP:DISRUPTSIGNSand WP:OR violations are being reported. Chris O' Hare (talk) 21:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Openly admiting to socking and threatening people isn't exactly going to make anyone want to side with you.★Trekker (talk) 15:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would anyone "side" with them even before that? Rhetorical question, I know why, and you do too. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly have no familarity with this subject. I just felt I had to express my facepalming at Sidoc's stupid comment.★Trekker (talk) 19:50, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: ★Trekker, You don't need to know anything about the topic to recognize obvious trolling, POV pushing, and disruptive behavior. The only reason people are pretending to be balanced is because they want him to be right since this involves an Arab figure. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 11:19, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think everyone related to the Greece and Rome Wikiproject has been in agreement with you throughout the trouble with this page. Furius (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That's really cool. I'm glad. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

text: What on Earth has Philip got to do with Phoenician identity? Hacking my FB? LOL. you'd be doing me a favor, delete your simping in my inbox when you do. Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is needed since it's the #1 question on google about him. And because the ethnicity of every other emperor (or person) is clearly laid out. Also being born in Arabia is not the same as being Arab. And his city was only incorporated into Arabia during Severus' time, when Arabia expanded at the expense of Syria, meaning if he was born 30 years earlier he would've been born in the province of Syria. Hawran was only made part of Syria in the first place due to geographic reasons (same reason it's part of syria today), but then in spite of that became part of arabia due to its strong Arab element (which preceded the birth of Philip by over a millennium). Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 16:07, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

text: While I am not very well-versed in this issue, it is relatively clear that Chris O'Hare/Sidoc is really insulting and is here to WP:RGW. HalfdanRagnarsson (talk) 15:19, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  None of the sources cited really say Philip the Arab was an "ethnic arab" and the disruptive edits on ancient personalities of Syro-Phoenician descent will be reported 

message: The Latin name "Philippus 'Arabus'" appeared in the first sentence. Since this spelling seemed likely to be an error, I checked a Latin source and found, as I expected, "Philippus 'Arabs'". I see that the 'u' was inserted anonymously in 2017. I've made the correction in the first sentence and footnoted the source I used. There could well be other Latin sources confirming it, but this is the one I found.
It strikes me that it might be better to repeat this Latin name later in the article and attach the footnote to it there. After all, noting the discussion above, there would be a reason to say exactly what the Latin textual evidence is ("Arabs" is a Latin ethnonym) in the course of discussing what modern authors say about his ethnicity. Andrew Dalby 15:32, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabs/Arabus 

message: Many of the citations are inadequate as the books lack ISBN & OCLC numbers, & there are URLs missing from at least one citation for a TV program. Additionally, there are extensive quotes that should have been explanatory footnotes with citations rather than citations with long quotes. I plan to rectify these. Peaceray (talk) 00:22, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Much to be improved in the citations, & the explanatory footnotes can be split into their own section 

message: The term Arabic seems to disturb you because you sincerely believe that it designates an ethnic group. Outside, the Arab  word designates a way of life of nomads without faith or law. It wasn't until centuries later that the term was ethnicized to make up a history of Islam. In the Middle Ages, the word was often used as an insult to a group of people.
https://apuleius.net/the-origin-of-the-arabian-people-in-islamic-history/ Adbouz (talk) 09:35, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The term Arab  designates a way of life of lawless nomads, not an ethnic group.