Talk:Snap-dragon (game)

message: why is scotland specified in the opening paragraph as one of the countries it didn't spread to, is there some signifigance
:Stated outright in the sources provided, probably to make a distinction twixt the English and Scottish.86.28.138.177 (talk) 12:15, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: why scotland

message: A minor point, but I feel the word would be better spelt without the hyphen, which makes it look oddly pedantic and old-fashioned. In modern English it's bound to be more common without. I'd also suggest it should be shown at Flapdragon with the other forms redirecting there, since I've much more often seen it called that than snapdragon, but then perhaps I'm biased! Flapdragon 01:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I chose Snap-dragon as the primary name mainly because there seemed to be a slight majority using a hyphen in the sources (Strut, Dryden, Carroll, and Sandys all use 'snap-dragon'); and of the others most use snapdragon unhyphenated (Faraday, Lingua, Brooks, and Blain) or as two separate words (Grose). It seems to me that flap-dragon appears to be the original and older term, but one that somewhere in the early-to-mid 18th Century evolved to 'snap' instead, and seeing as most of the article was about the Victorian practice of the game I made the completely arbitrary decision to put it here instead :) Ziggurat 02:48, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling

message: It's not clear what the basis is for the claim that this is a children's game. Grose says that "the company scramble for the raisins". It might be faintly silly or childish, but there's nothing in the article or any definitions I've seem to show that it's played only or mainly by children, let alone unsupervised, as the term "children's game" would seem to imply -- makes me think of marbles or or hopscotch or some such. After all, it does involve strong drink and naked flame! Flapdragon 01:16, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, the evidence that it's a children's game is much more scarce than the evidence that it was a game played by children! I'll just go edit that out... Ziggurat 03:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

text: It seems to me that the original practice was one not by children but by gallants and rakehells (there's an entry in Brewer's Phrase and Fable to that effect), and that it was carried out in the kind of seedy bars where you can imagine a young Prince Hal, but all of the Victorian sources identify it specifically as a parlour game (and traditionally a Christmas one) with fairly standard rules and practices, so I think the distinction is valid Ziggurat 03:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Agreed, the evidence for a causal link is specious. Gonna go edit that... Ziggurat 03:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The headfirst idea seems unlikely, but perhaps you could grab a raisin from the lip of the bowl? But this is just speculation on my part. Flapdragon 16:50, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

text: "Master Sandy's Snapdragon" features it as a game played by people of all ages, including children; Sandys as a game for "juvenile parties"; "young folks" from Strutt; the footnote in The Annotated Alice (which I didn't actually use in the article, but which pointed me to the practice in the first place) specifies children. But the reason I used Strutt as the reference was that the chapter that talks about Snapdragons is headed "POPULAR MANLY PASTIMES IMITATED BY CHILDREN", and the pastimes in that chapter all refer to children's activities. I think there's quite sufficient evidence that it was played by children, and this is reflected in the Main Page DYK; it was not, however, exclusively played by children, so it's certainly better to characterise it as a family game. Ziggurat 20:07, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Children's game?

message: Well not entirely.... My family still play this from time to time, mostly around Christmas and New Year (and we call it snapdragon).  Anyone managing to transport a still-burning raisin to their mouth gets an admiring reaction (it's not easy to do).  I'm pleased to say that we have had no incidences of burn injuries!88.110.106.224 11:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So the flame is not really hot enough to cause injury? Or perhaps it would, if you weren't quick enough and allowed it to linger on the skin? (a bit like a hot equivalent of handling dry ice) Flapdragon 16:45, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was hoping someone could clarify the heat of the flame, because one or two sources suggest that brandy does not in fact burn at a high enough temperature to burn your skin (as long as you're fast!). I'd love to see a reliable source on this, otherwise it's going to have to be a personal experiment... Ziggurat 19:53, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Snapdragon has died out? 

message: In another tradition, one of the raisins contains a gold button and becomes 'the lucky raisin'.
A raisin containing a button? Come on! Is that physically possible? Anyway, did people really have gold buttons? Perhaps the writer meant gold-coloured. Flapdragon 17:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Golden Raisin 

message: I deleted the "English" bit in an earlier edit (I should really have said so) because there didn't seem to be any evidence that the game wasn't played outside England, which on the face of it looked unlikely; the timeframe then given ("Georgian and Victorian") was excessively restrictive  and given that the same might be true of the geographical restriction, it seemed safer not to specify a country. I considered changing it to "British" but that would just have been guesswork. However, it does seem unlikely that the game was not played elsewhere. The only light I can shed is that the entry for snapdragon in Harrap's New Standard French and English Dictionary (first published 1939, this from the 1980 edition) is "jeu (de Noël) qui consiste à happer des raisins sec dans du cognac flambant et à les manger touts chauds" [(Christmas) game consisting of grabbing raisins out of burning brandy and eating them hot]. Though this doesn't prove the game was unknown in France, it shows at least that the editors were unable to find a French translation. In the absence of reliable info, I'd say it's probably better to leave the geography unspecified. Flapdragon 19:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I specified English instead of British because Chambers states explicitly that the game is virtually unknown in Scotland. My French dictionaries offered no suggestions as to a French term - 'gueule-de-loup' (roughly Mouth of the Wolf) is used for the flower, but there are no web cross-references between 'gueule-de-loup' and 'raisin sec'. The Harraps entry is a find, though! Pending further investigation, not specifying nationality seems the best course. Ziggurat 20:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  English? British? 

message: I thought snap-dragons were a flower.  If not, what are those flowers called that people have been calling "Snap-dragons"?--Redandready 16:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: So what are those flowers?

message: I remember calling the antirrhinum flower a 'snap-dragon' or 'bunny-rabbit' as a kid (back in the 1950s). I think the 'bunny-rabbit' name I learned from my grand-mother N790 (talk) 10:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you type 'snapdragon' or 'snap-dragon' into the Wikipedia search box you'll be sent to this page. Ziggurat 21:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Snap-dragon flowers 

message: I think it would help if this section was rearranged, or if reference was made to the drinking version of the game earlier on. As it stands, the literary quotations don't make sense until one has read on to the description of the old version of the game. Melaena (talk) 11:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Literary References

message: Just popped in to note that the "first printed mention" sections are derived from the OED - uncited, but not original research. which may have led to the practice mostly dying out in the early 20th century is speculation and should be removed. I'm no longer actively editing, but if someone else wants to pick up the ball here I'd welcome it.
Ziggurat 03:12, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delisting 

message: Although I'm not quite brave enough to use fingers, I can confirm that this is still a fun game to play using metal forks!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.171.29 (talk) 01:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Safety 

message: The last sentence in the first paragraph struck me as peculiar, and potentially out of place. Is the "Cameron Clan" somehow notable? (Do they have their own wiki article I may be missing?). Is there annual event well documented previously that a citation could be included? Thanks for the interesting content though! Cheers! --Elfabet (talk) 18:27, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cameron clan of Ontario" notability?