Talk:Centre Party (Germany)/Archive 2

message: Despite my bitching , however, I am correcting this article's english composition, at the risk of communicating.
::Don't be afraid, I won't bite you.
::Thanks for your effort (with the exception of one paragraph here, further down. 
::I browsed through this all and have this to say.
Under "Catholic groups in the Prussian Diet" the second paragraph should refer to who  -peresumably 'the group'. I put it in.
::You mean who is "it" - it's a "general it" - like: "it became clear to all". Or do you mean the sentiment and policies? They are referring to just what they say they are. But in fact, this paragraph fits better into the following "Soest" section. I change that.
 
Previous section- the revolution is always referred to in English as the Revolution. This is mysterious because of the generality of the term, but refers to the German Revolution, which should have a page and a link. I put in the brackets..
::If you wanted a link to this specific revolution, I have linked this now to the more comprehensive "revolutions of 1848" instead of linking it just to "revolution" in general.
Soest...  Confessional  Sch.-  this needs "establishment" , one could assume.
::Ok, agreed, but I put "Preservation or founding of denominational schools", they were denominational school in existence.
Strengthening middle classes-financial presumably ...
::Left over from before my overhaul. I think it refers to measures protecting the middle classes against big business, also financially by adjusting taxes etc.
fraction is not normal use in english outside of measurement, hence italics.
::I agree, I struggled with the translation of this word between Faction, Fraction, Club and Parliamentary Party.
soest... rights for germanPoles or Polish Poles ... presume the former...
::Poles (and other Slavs) with German citizenship are meant. (Mostly Posen and Western Prussia)
Soest...particularistic is not in use : if it refers to an emphasis of conservative then 'paticular'. Otherwise  de-regulising.
::No, it means a bent towards protecting "the Bavarian way of life" against Borussification. This is the forerunner to the latter "states' rights" bent. Note, the BVP did not just advocate the Bavarian state's right but the rights of all states of Germany. But of course, since they were a Bavarian party in practice they aimed mostly on Bavarian issues. 
Kuturekampf(KK) ... did the CP gain greater support or is this the continued support.. put gained greater
KK...eg or ie are not necessary in WP
::Why would they be unnecessary? But granted, they can be overdone.
KK...social security is better as social welfare
::Fixed that.
KK... notable is bordering on notorius but leave notable
::That was left over from before my overhaul. I change it to "known", if you don't mind. If you do, post something else.
KK... had even then ...defended...had . Very unclear, assume ..'during it (KK)
::You're right.
Tower...would persuade the CP . classic english difficulty I have referred to before 
::?
Tower- for strenthened substitute re-inforced. Strength is too physical
Tower... politicians and public : this is a mental difference  between languages. I say that english speakers would assume  public  precedes
::?
All non-germans have difficulty with these party titles and abbreviations . historians all refer to socialists  at this time as socialists. In actual vote counts and tables the the direct name is used . The english norms should be used . I therefore make an extra inch space  for the hard-pressed WP .
::I put in "social democrats" most of the time - Socialist might be ok in the 19th century, where the terms were synonyms. However, in the Weimar Republic at the very latest Social Democrat is better. The link is to a specific party with its distinct programme. It's quite different from other parties. It's ok to rank the SPD under Socialist parties even today, but here it stands on its own.
Linking left-wing, surely left wing is already explained in seating terms  above , rather strangely .... this makes it  rather de trop.
weimar...The depression is not the sole cause of the economic crises , nor were repayments. It exacerbated a german crisis of economic mis-management , according to many analysts. Until their viewpoint is sufficiently represented on WP, see Edgar Ansel Mowrer. If this is considered an aggressive edit, then this is a POV article ....this is a cardinal difference between POV German and POV exterior analysis, during and ever since .
In history books, neither minister nor prime-minister not chancellor are capitalised ....
Weimar, here at the end .. the election of Kaas. This is not enough  to describe the importance of the 3rd way, the papal way .here it is referred to as bishops .However Monsignor Ludwig  Kaas already was deep in  friendship and association with Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli, Pacelli's own brother and he were not only full cognizant of the centralising anti-democratising of the Church , but were in fact leading proponentsd and administrators of this (the brother in Italy in a mirror image of this Pacelli's involvement through Kaas in Germany ) see Hitler's Pope . Herein begins the avoidance or glossing-over  of the issue at dispute : Kaas's agency from 1928 for the vatican at the literal centre of the German democracy of Weimar . At best this is avoidance , which up until now I have been trying to prevent  . It is not slander , but history....like saying Alexander invaded Persia . This is no slander because , were he alive , it would be fact . A church may not anyway be slandered, as this editor writing the article says, the relevant people are beyond a Court . However I have confirmed by this wikipedian  in our discussions on Hitler's Pope discussions  ,that indeed there is automatic quasi legal sanction . The sanction emits from transgression of Romans 3,8 and in short, enforces excommunication from the moment that these vatican figures actuated their pro-Hitler policy through the Centre Party , and with-out ,through lesser and , in the case of the Industrial-Magnates, greater forces of interest in Germany. 
::Oh dear. There is nothing in there about a third way or papal way.
::This is your conspiracy for which you have not given real evidence
::There is no proof that Kaas was acting as the Vatican's agent, his friendship with Pacelli notwithstanding (and I don't know about deep - given that Pacelli was a very reserved man - but maybe it was as deep as Pacelli would go. I don't know.)
::The comparison is hunching, to say the least. That Alexander invaded and conquered Persia is a well known fact, even one of the major facts of world history, like let's say Columbus discovered America. But what you demand, is in comparison a detail and thus far real evidence has not been produced.
::As for your "Question of the Law", I reiterated my point. The people in question might have done moral wrong (note that your reasoning (derived from Romans 3, Humana Vitae and Ratzinger) is based on them having been in "Formal cooperation with evil" not just a "material cooperation" - the best you could do was arguing for the latter). Even if they did commit a moral wrong, they are now dead and beyond any human court, they are facing God's judgement not ours. There is the theoretical possibility of declaring that someone had incurred excommunication while alive, but a) in dubio pro reo!, b) what good would it do? And since Pius XII has been declared venerable (after great scrutiny), I doubt that he is guilty of what you accuse him of.
::History's task is not to judge people morally (though any person may do that as a pasttime and even write books about it), but to relate "what actually happened" (Ranke). 
Also missing from this article is any reference from 1925 onwards of papal interference via Bruning towards an authoritative return of a Kaiser or monarch.
::Never heard of this. Only that Brüning in his memoirs says he intended to restore the monarchy. But these memoirs are often disputed, for reason I do no know. 
In english plural of junker is junkers . Or prussians or foxes .
Added Weimar to Bruning section  title -Weimar continued ...
::of course Weimar continued, but this section is about the Brüning government in particular. If anyone can add more to the Marx government or the Wirth government or ..., it might become a distinct section too.
Bruning...-say crises , there were several , some caused by German mismanagement in and out of the treaty revision negotiations .....
Explain article 48 -I did before , more clearly ....
::I think presidential decree is pretty straightforward.
::Other things I changed:
::I reverted "Zentrum(s)" to "Zentrum" - the party never was known as "Zentrums" - the "s" is only a grammatical link between "Zentrum" and "partei". BTW: Are You German? Sometimes I think You are, but sometimes I don't. Could You please clarify. Don't be ashamed. You needn't be!
::"emergeding" does not exist > "emerging"
::"and the later demise ..." > ". The later demise ..." - a new thought begins there.
::"urgently needed. This aimed for the protection" > "urgently need in order to protect" - needed for what? This belongs together.
::It is spelled "Hannover"
::"if the Vatican would persuade" - don't put "would" into an if-clause
::I changed my own "confessional" into "denominational" - in English denomination is the correct term for a branch of a religion. Also "confessional party" is ambigious (Beichtstuhlpartei?)
::Str1977 16:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Composition

message: I find it extraordinary to note ,Str1977( if it is yourself  who included them) ,  that we have  here now  in the article   Monsignor Kaas' own words concerning the Enabling Act : "On the one hand we must [oppose] to preserve our soul..." . These words relate to my legal canonical accusations . I believe this is defined  as  contumacy .I believe these words absolutely incriminate  by expressing the contumacy . 'Soul' is the word used  and is the word that relates to the breaking of the magisterial Divine Law claimed  as being upheld by the Roman Catholic Church . Whatever the meaning of the word "we" , whether referring to the party as conscious moral (christian) individuals  or whether exclusively to the 'we' of a political party , it is undoubted that Monsignor Kaas was extrememy close by all standards  of church history , to Eugenio Pacelli ; that Pacelli and Pius XI  could have been in no doubt that they authorised in every way all the actions and words of Monsignor Kaas ; and that all three of them were in league in contravening the injunctions of the church or were justifiably acting  under the  conditionality of better the lesser evil. 
That they were arguably politically and historically wrong , is something that has contributed vastly to the world as we now see it ( and to the very forces of rebellion against world  stability apparent) . Being in the wrong is not a crime against humanity , but consciously to support Hitler at this period was as Kaas says,  to abandon the preservation of the soul and is the most serious charge in present western civilisation , only exceeding the charges of corruption one-day to be levelled at the forces of capital in this same civilisation .
 
Although you have removed the dates of the many interactions linking Hitler directly through Kaas to Pacelli and Pius XI , they remain on the Pius XII article  and you yourself confirmed them to indeed emanate from  historian  Guenter Lewy . I do not think we have an argument about their actuality -though the secrecy attempt  of Kaas and Papen on 7 April in Munich en route to Rome is something you could also confirm from Lewy . The Italian  press  (quoted previously by me)  publicly revealed  at the time , some of the secrecy . 
In general I still object to the sanitised slant of your  apparently more centre effort than vatican effort  and I still think the centre article lacks  a reasonable suspicion of the quid pro quo . I therefore have  added  in  the controversy . If you are prepared to accept that paragraph , we may be able to move on to the real issue here, one which still touches all our lives and influences our futures materially , politically and spiritually . Famekeeper 09:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Soul"