Talk:Aerial refueling

message: Great page a few points though.
Royzee 10:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A few points

message: Aerial refueling was used in the 20's to make some very long endurance flight records.  There may be some definitive dates in the record books of the record keeping organizations.  
A question for the experts:
During WW2 US bombers over Germany suffered severe losses early because the fighters did not have enough range to stay with the bombers all the way to the targets leaving them exposed to German fighters for part of the trip.  There was a period in late '43 and early '44 when US bomber crews had only a 30% chance of surviving the required 30 missions before they could go home.  It wasn't until the P51 with its longer range became available that the problem was solved.  Why didn't they use aerial refueling to extend the range of the earlier fighters?
:Just a guess... I would say that by the time the fighters needed fuel they were in hostile airspace. Air-refueling just about anywhere in the European theater would be subject to enemy fighters. In-flight refueling is tricky enough without someone trying to shoot you AND the tanker down. --LedHed430 05:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't wait till you are running low to refuel, you takeoff, climb, and then top off.  The takeoff and climb to combat altitude burn way more gas than level, high-altitude flight to the target.  The shouted comment below notwithstanding (any plane can act as a tanker), my guess is that the number of planes involved in a typical mission was so large, and the tonnage that most planes could carry at the time was so low that they didn't bother trying.  I would love to hear from someone who knows though.71.63.88.158 (talk) 18:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How come no one mentioned the first system used by the new USAF: Looped Hose system developed by UK?--69.168.47.31 05:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They were B52s in 1991,  B-2s debut was during the Kosovo War in 1999 --Jor70 22:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  history 

message: We seem to be missing a good probe and drogue picture. What happened to the old one? If it's gone for copyright reasons, can we get another one up there instead of that F-15 picture?
Anyone have any pictures of Navy probes left in USAF drogues? The Naval Aviators seem to have a bad habit of snapping off the probes during quick-disconnects. --LedHed430 04:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Probe and drogue picture. 

message: Alright, what was the tanker mission during the cold war? The story I always heard for the birds on the alert pad was: Take-off, rendezvous with the bombers, transfer ALL your fuel to said bombers, find a nice comfy patch of snow to ditch the aircraft on, then watch the inbound Russian ICBM's. Any other "stories" out there? --LedHed430 06:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cold War Tanker Mission 

message: It is not true that there are no civilian in-flight refueling operations.  The RAF has "privatized" that mission for the past several years, according to aviation news reports.
:I think civilian here means non-military activity, not who operates the service. WP 00:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civilian Operations 

message: In the subsection named Strategic uses and considerations, the text discusses the use of tankers to refuel cargo aircraft in-flight and implies that in-flight refuling of cargo aircraft was used during the Viet-Nam conflict era. To the best of my knowledge, there weren't any USAF cargo aircraft which were capable of receving in-flight fuel during the Viet-Nam war. Possibly the HC-130 models were. As far as I know, the first large numbers of cargo aircraft capable of receiving in-flight fuel were the C-5 and C-141 aircraft modified in the late 1970's or early 1980's.
This was an important post Viet-Nam War era step in extending the range and usefulness of USAF cargo aircraft to undertake long range missions where non-US host nation air base landing and refueling stops are denied due to international and diplomatic considerations during regional conflicts. --TGC55 15:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refueling cargo aircraft? 

message: Can anyone recommend any good books on the mathematics of refuelling? Supposing I wanted to plan a mission like Operation Black Buck, with a known number of bombers being refuelled by large numbers of tankers refuelling each other at predetermined points. How do I work out how many tankers I need, (given the known distance to target and characteriscs of my planes) and the times at which to transfer fuel from tanker to tanker? Blaise 21:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mathematics of refueling

message: According to Flight International, Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) and Gulfstream are developing an air-to-air refuelling concept based on the G550 business jet. Nov 21 2006
See: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/11/21/Navigation/177/210622/IAI+and+Gulfstream+study+tanker+version+of+G550.html
Royzee 09:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Biz Jet Tanker

message: Although interesting and informative, this page's photos is almost entirely US(AF) based. All but three of the pictures are of US aircraft, whereas 30 seconds on Google reveals a wealth of international photos. I find this slightly inconsiderate when Wikipedia bills itself as "international". Thanks   —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.116.137 (talk • contribs) 16:01, March 11, 2007  (UTC)
:you are right.  I think most of the problem is that the US military releases all of it's images to public domain, and many other countries do not.  Feel free to add any free images you find to the project.  See Wikipedia:Copyrights.  --rogerd 20:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other countries?

message: Howdy, just dropping in to mention that I corrected a few links in the list of aerial refueling aircraft.  The KB-29 links both went to a list of B-29 variants, and I fixed them to point to the article about KB-29s (itself practically a stub).  The KC-97 entry mentioned that it was based on the B-29, and I corrected it to show that it was based on the C-97 (which was a wide-body cargo plane that was itself based on the B-29).  Finally, I changed "B-50" to "KB-50", since that was the designation used by B-50 Superfortresses converted to aerial refueling platforms.--Raguleader 08:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  KC97/KB-50 fixes 

message: The article currently contains the following:
"The lower flow rates then available from the lower pressure and limited diameter of the hose used in the probe-and-drogue system result in longer refueling times compared to the Flying Boom. However, lighter aircraft are refueled quicker because their fuel capacity is smaller."
Do lighter aircraft actually refuel quicker from a probe-and-drogue than from a flying boom?  (Maybe they can connect more quickly, which balances out the slower fuel transfer, I don't know)
Or is the refueling time simply acceptably quick given their smaller fuel capacity compared to larger bomber or transport aircraft?
It would be good to make this clearer. Occasional Reader 21:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Probe and drogue question/clarification 

message: I have seen a reference to the first tactical use of air refueling someplace. I shall endever to find it, and perhaps add that tidbit in someday. If someone wants to research it, it won't hurt my feelings. It had something to do with the 136th Fighter Bomber Group in Korea. --Colputt 20:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Korean Conflict

message: I sense a tendency of inserting every movie with even dubious or minuscule aerial refueling scenes. Most movies should be avoided unless the appearances are especially notable. This section should not be a compendium of every trivial appearance, but only significant ones of relevance to aerial refueling. Due to the large number of CG and arcade simulations, an effort should be made to avoid tallying every sim appearance. Fictional versions and speculation about fictional likenesses should not be included, as they constitute original research. --Necessary Evil 14:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, only significant entries should be in there --rogerd 04:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Culture 

message: How long does refueling of a popular jet fighter aircraft (e.g. F-15 or F-18) normally take? I can't get any information on the Internet. Thx. Thomas. --86.33.239.110 (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 01:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it takes 2-5 minutes each, I rode along in a tanker a couple of months ago and we refueled F-16s.Ratsbew (talk) 22:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  How long does refueling take? 

message: I removed the paragraph below:
Should one need proof of the priority the US Air Force places on aerial refuelling consider this: the initial order under the Request for Proposal is estimated to be worth $40 billion. If the US Air Force manages to gain funding to replace its entire fleet of some 500 KC-135 aircraft the cost could be well over $100 billion -- making it the largest military procurement program in world history.
Its not written in a encyuclopedic fashion Acer (talk) 13:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed paragagraph 

message: The current content of the section is a copy paste of the website of a company selling consultancy services. Bad tone + Conflict of interest... 80.203.46.123 (talk) 10:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please insert the website link here, thank you.--Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 11:35, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The site Range Unlimited contains most of the text from this section, copied in chunks. Seems like a straightforward marketing ploy to me, promoting their specific concern on Wikipedia. Taffy (talk) 10:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Commercial applications

message: I know that there are plenty of images in this article, but if we would like a close-up of an F/A-18 Hornet taking fuel, there is a PD one at http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/_layouts/imagemeta.aspx?image=http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/PublishingImages/20050711-M-0502A-006.jpg. bahamut0013wordsdeeds 21:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  great PD image 

message: I cut these paragraphs because, while accurate and thorough, they are way too in-depth for this article. I felt bad just deleting it, though, so I moved it here. Maybe someone can use it in an article about one of the tankers.
The boom's mechanical limits are based on the structure of the yoke and trunnion system mounting the boom to the tanker, the length of the extendable inner fuel tube and the maximum deflection of the flexible nozzle.  Exceeding mechanical limits can physically break structural parts mounting the boom to the tanker.  Exceeding the nozzle's deflection limits can cause mechanical binding between the nozzle and receptacle (try removing a key from a lock by pulling sideways instead of straight back) and possible separation of the nozzle from the boom.  Should the receiver move too far forward and push the inner fuel tube to its retraction limit, the outer structural portion of the boom could contact the receiver aircraft and damage both the boom and receiver; too far aft, and the nozzle locked in the receptacle could be physically broken from the boom when the inner fuel tube reaches its extension limit.
Air refueling envelope limits may also be receiver based. For example, a receiver with a receptacle mounted on the fuselage behind a canopy might have to limit upward movement while in contact to prevent the boom from hitting the canopy. Additionally, large receivers can adversely affect boom control resulting in envelope limitations.
As the crewmember with the best view of the operation, the boom operator is primarily responsible for preventing damage to either aircraft during air refueling.  While in contact, the boom operator positions the ruddevator control stick to maintain boom/receptacle alignment in response to receiver aircraft left/right and up/down movement, thereby minimizing side forces on the mated nozzle/receptacle. The KC-10 has an automatic load alleviation system that automatically maintains neutral boom alignment during contact. A "freewheeling" extension/retraction motor allows the inner fuel tube to extend and retract as the receiver moves fore and aft.  The boom operator must monitor the receiver's position, via three boom position indicators, and command a disengagement of the nozzle/receptacle locking toggles–a "disconnect"–before the receiver aircraft exceeds any published air refueling envelope limit. If the boom operator disconnects before the receiver get the full fuel offload, the entire operation–precontact, closure and contact–repeats; this is a normal and expected occurance, especially in turbulent weather or with inexperienced receiver pilots.
89.211.58.138 (talk) 15:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted material 

message: In section "# 2.2 Probe-and-Drogue", the following sentence mentions the refueling process twice, probably because the sentences are too long:
..."Pat Hornidge took-off from Tarrant Rushton and, refueled ten times by the Lancaster tanker, remained airborne for 12 hours and 3 minutes, receiving 2,352 gallons of fuel from the tanker in ten tanker contacts"...
I don't know which of the two clauses to remove, so I'll leave the decision to somebody else. You can remove this comment after the problem's sorted!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.76.56 (talk) 17:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible mistake in # 2.2 Probe-and-Drogue 

message: There so much about Air and Sea refueling. But where is the ground refueling ? Is there an article missing ?
--Gonzosft (talk) 17:34, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Aviation fuel might work for the photo. - BilCat (talk) 15:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ground refueling 

message: How about a section relating to the future of aerial refueling?  Besides describing some of the new tankers in development (and moving earlier references here?), the following two items might be of interest:
*  Automated Aerial Refueling Next For X-47B
*  ISS Team Conducts Sat Refueling Demonstration
~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Future 

message: I can not see any mention of the airflow during refueling. An airplane is kept aloft by wings pushing air down. Is the receiver above, inside or below the downward airstream from the tanker's wings? As the XB-70 crash, the B52-crash and this video shows, close formation flying such as Aerial refueling can be risky, and the article should describe the airflow that is partially responsible for the risk. I have looked at ,  and , but not found any information other than that wake turbulence is an issue. Any suggestions for sources? TGCP (talk) 20:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aerodynamics of close flying 

message: The "Strategic" section says: "The development of the KC-97 and KC-135 Stratotankers was pushed by the Cold War requirement of the United States to be able to keep fleets of ... bombers airborne around-the-clock....[T]he tankers would refill the bombers' fuel tanks so that they could keep a force in the air 24 hours a day...." Even if an airplane itself could stay in air indefinitely, what happens to the crew? Do they live on it, like on a space station? Did the bombers have enough facilities onboard to allow this? Rahul (talk) 09:40, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a certain limit to human endurance and aircraft maintenance.  USAF bombers (B-52, B-1, B-2) do not have space for crew quarters for a relief crew, but most cargo and tanker aircraft do (C-5, C-17, KC-135, KC-10).  --rogerd (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: While the B-2 doesn't have a built I  resting area. The pilotsecond purchased cots to rest on while in flightSimmons123456 (talk) 13:39, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aircraft in air 24x7 what happens to crew? 

message: The article stated that "all US Navy and Marine Corps aircraft refuel using the hose-and-drogue".   The Boeing P-8 Poseidon apparently uses the USAF flying boom system only.   I am not sure if any other Navy aircraft refuel only with the flying boom system.  --rogerd (talk) 20:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boeing P-8 Poseidon 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: The whole compatibility issues section is from an issue that has been resolved 4 years ago. The section should be changed to past tense and corroborate what this section of the F-35 page says about the refueling stuff CR055H41RZ (talk) 21:13, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the section says that the cost of converting F-35As to use the probe and drogue system caused controversy, which is correct. The F-35 article backs that up, as LM stated in the sources that it could be done, but that the customers requiring it would have to pay for it. Still, it's probably not an issue that even needs to be mentioned, but it certainly doesn't warrant the tag bombing. - BilCat (talk) 20:56, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues with Compatibility issues 

message: It says: "Usually, the aircraft providing the fuel is specially designed for the task". I'd debate that. The closest thing I've ever seen to an aircraft "specially designed for the task" is the KC-135, which was designed as a tanker, and then turned into an airliner, the Boeing 707. Every aircraft since then has been a modified airliner or cargo aircraft. What was the last aircraft you can name designed from the ground up as a tanker? Also, much of the world doesn't have dedicated tankers; they use buddy refueling or temporary conversions. AnnaGoFast (talk) 02:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dedicated aircraft? 

message: I have seen in a forum the claim that it is possible for the boom equipped tankers to receive fuel via their boom (i.e. from what would normally be the receiver). Instinctively this seems wrong, however can anybody confirm or deny?Kitbag (talk) 05:10, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know either. Perhaps someone confused that with the ability of some tankers to be refueled themselves by a boom as a receiver aircraft, as here. - BilCat (talk) 05:20, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverse Refuelling 

message: Hello Wiki People!
I have a few suggestions for the article.
First under the "Strategies" section I read a lot of information about the topic but saw a large lack of sources. Try to add more sources if possible.
Secondly I found a citation to bring me to a "Page not found" webpage AKA the citations are no longer active sites. (citation [31])
Lastly I found myself distracted from the topic when I was reading about the Longest manned flight as it wasn't the type of refueling I feel was covered within the article.
Overall I think the article was well written, extremely interesting and just needs more and better citations throughout. Doylesmash (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal Thoughts/ Concerns (Strateies area mainly)

message: Helicopter In Flight refueling- Several Navies will HIFR the helo from a ship, the helo will hover over a open area - to gra winch up the fuel line, then flies along at the speed of the ship. For safety, once fuel pumping starts, the helo will move over alongside the ship. Wfoj3 (talk) 00:53, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's already mentioned in the article. - BilCat (talk) 01:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  HIFR 

message: This article says,
"The magnitude of temperature changes experienced by the SR-71, from parked to its maximum speed, resulted in significant expansion of its structural parts in cruise flight. To allow for the expansion, the Blackbird's parts had to fit loosely when cold, so loosely, in fact, that the Blackbird constantly leaked fuel before heating expanded the airframe enough to seal its fuel tanks. Following the supersonic dash, and to stop the fuel leaks, the SR-71 would then rendezvous with a tanker to fill its now nearly empty tanks before proceeding on its mission."
But the article on the Blackbird says,
"On a typical SR-71 mission, the airplane took off with only a partial fuel load to reduce stress on the brakes and tires during takeoff and also ensure it could successfully take off should one engine fail. As a result, the SR-71s were typically refueled immediately after takeoff. This has led to the misconception that the plane required immediate refueling after takeoff due to leaking fuel tanks. However, leaks were measured in drips per minute, and were not significant compared to the overall capacity."
Any idea who is right?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.252.32.253 (talk) 12:44, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The SR-71 books I have, say the later is what happened normally. Maybe a supersonic dash was done prior to refuelling on a very few occasions ? - Rod57 (talk) 11:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  SR-71 fuel leaks 

message: eg article mentions pre-jet 230 mph, but what air speed do the jet tankers offer ? eg. What range of speeds and altitudes could the KC-135Q refuel the SR-71, and the Victor tankers refuel the Vulcan bombers ? - Rod57 (talk) 11:04, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: From books : KC-135Q would typically refuel SR-71 at 350kt (403 mph, 649 km/h) and 26,000 ft. Also, at least sometimes, an SR-71 would require two tankers to give it a full fuel load. - Rod57 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  What refuelling airspeeds and altitudes have been used 

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thread_title:  Updated "Bombed by Blinders" link