Talk:Biblical archaeology

message: Göbekli Tepe has nothing to do with biblical archaeology. I've gone back to the orginal lead as I think 'biblical world' is open to too many interpretations. Dougweller (talk) 15:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Göbekli Tepe, lead 

message: Apparently (see above) the Christian archaeology article was already merged into this one once. But it (again?) exists as a separate article, and is fairly substantial. If Christian archaeology is a genuine, New Testament-focused sub-discipline of Biblical archaeology (and my oh-so-scientific survey of one archaeologist suggests that it's not), that article needs to be heavily rewritten to make it clearly subordinate to this one. If not, it needs to be redirected here and any useful content merged into this article. -- Perey (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely approve of a merge and redirect from Christian archaeology. I'll have a crack at a merge if no-one more qualified jumps up soon PatHadley (talk) 17:09, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been at Syro-Palestinian Archaeology (also called Biblical Archaeology in the very recent old days/when you need funding from donor kebabs) for almost six years now and I've never actually heard the term "Christian archaeology" before. The two major problems with that article are that it ignores the Old Testament aspects of biblical archaeology and it is little more than a list. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 30 Shevat 5774 17:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to know! If you're confidant that there's not much to be saved from Christian Archaeology perhaps a bold delete and redirect is in order? PatHadley (talk) 18:40, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not by any means an expert-I've only a B.A. in archaeology at the moment, for one thing-and my never having heard of Christian archaeology shouldn't be grounds for deleting an article, especially when the info from that article could be used for other articles (unless it's been cut-and-pasted from existing articles). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 30 Shevat 5774 18:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Better look at  although the existence of such a field doesn't mean they should be separate articles. Dougweller (talk) 19:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: First thing would be to make sure it's about archaeology and not the study of texts, and that any sections that have main articles are actually summaries of the main article per WP:SUMMARY. Then we can make a better judgement. Dougweller (talk) 19:31, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Just realised as it stands it says "Christian Archeology (more commonly termed "Biblical Archaeology"" which makes it a fork from this one of the sort we try to avoid as if it's called Biblical archaeology, well, that's this article. Dougweller (talk) 19:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Not suggesting they should be, I'm just thinking the text should be salvaged, if possible. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 1 Adar I 5774 01:33, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger... again? 

message: Let me just clear up the overwhelming tilt the overcitation of Dever seems to be creating in this article. First, neither Dever nor any other archaeologist in Israel suggests that most of the Bible (Old Testament/Hebrew Bible) is ahistorical in its entirety. This is perfectly shown by a broadcast on April 24, 2000 between Dever, Gerald Steinberg (politican studies professor) and Ze'ev Herzog, an expert archaeologist and professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Herzog says the following:
"We should distinguish within the biblical literature and documentation between two periods. First, the period of the monarchies of Judah and Israel from the ninth century to the sixth century is well-documented, both in archaeological and in documents from neighbouring countries, mainly Assyrian and this chapter in history as well is grounded in both sources and there is no debate about its historicity. The discussion is about the earlier phases which we would call a protohistory of the Israelites, the episodes in Egypt, the wandering in Sinai, the very story of the patriarchs, the military conquest. And all these events, which are described in detail in the biblical stories, appear to be contradicting. Not the absence of evidence, but very detailed investigations of archaeology over the last 70 years, which presents factual evidence different from the biblical one, basically showing that the population which later was developed into the states of Judah and Israel, originally orientated from within the country, did not come from Egypt, or from any other place." 
But if he's really willing to stretch the rubber band to the last 70 years (twice as much as what Dever gives who considers the end of biblical archaeology's conservative tyranny to have ended in the last generation - Biblical Archaeological Review, Vol. 32 Mar/Apr), has he not read David Noel Freedman and Edward F. Campbell's, The Biblical Archaeologist Reader? In Volume 2 (1964), I paraphrase the following remarkably accurate, historical confirmations of the earliest traditions about the Patriarchs in Genesis:
1. The names Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph are typical names of the period and places. (The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol.2, p.16)
2. Sarah gives Hagar, a concubine, to Abraham due to her own infertility. This was exactly what the custom was there at the time. Although Eliezer was a slave of Abraham's, he was his heir, just like in those times. (Ibid., p.22). The custom was that if the wife would have a child, the servant-woman who had children should not be exiled, which is why Abraham was so upset with Sarah. (p.23)
3. The Hurrians (biblical sons of Hamor/Horites) were the nobles of Western Asian cities (i.e. Shechem), thus how Shechem was able to convince the entire town to circumcise themselves so he would have a bride.
4. The blessing of Isaac upon Jacob was legally binding even in a literate society like Mari! Also, a similar case exists in the documents of Mari to Esau's selling of his birthright for a bowl of soup - a brother had sold his inheritance for three sheep, no doubt induced by similarly dire circumstances that were exploited by the other brother. (Ibid. pp.23-24, 27).
5. The situation with Laban and Jacob's toil under him as well as every detail of the story completely matches the situation of the time. (pp.25ff.)
Many more examples exist that completely contradict the general impression Dever et al try to create with their assessment. If the traditions got so many cultural details that wouldn't have existed in their own time right, how is it that they practiced "creative writing" with much of the proto-history of Israel? On the one hand Herzog admits the historical picture (for which he says we have plenty of archaeology and history) is not under question for 900-500 BC, on the other hand there was a mythology-spree for the history of 900 BC and earlier even though much of the customs are confirmed!
But what of other events such as the Exodus and the Conquest? In the case of the Exodus, the ancients were not in a habit of recording their losses and often turned them into victories (so the chroniclers of Shalmaneser III regarding the Battle of Qarqar which he most certainly lost - Ibid. p.158). Secondly, one cannot expect archaeological evidence in the case of a nomadic, non-sedentary people as the Hebrews were for a mere 40 years during the Exodus. This is perfectly exemplified with the origin of the Ammonites. Hence, George M. Landes writes in, 'The Material Civilization of the Ammonites' (p.70): "The biblical tradition that the Ammonites, along with their brothers the Moabites, originated in southern Transjordan (near Zoar, cf. Gen. 19:30) can probably never be demonstrated historically, since in all probability they began as nomadic clans who would leave behind little or no evidence of their existence." It is of course no different with the Exodus.
What about the Conquest? First, the reason why the situation is said to contradict the Bible is because the Conquest is dated to the late 13th century BC, instead of the early 14th! The evidence fits the Bible much better if we assume a 15th/14th century BC. As for the general impression given by the lack of specifically Israelite pottery and objects in Canaan is because the Israelites had no such original culture - they would have been thoroughly saturated of the Semitic and Canaanite influence of the Goshen already. The same is the case with early Christian artwork which is indistinguishable from Greco-Roman artwork because that's the culture the Christians inherited culturally!
In the same BAR article, Dever writes, "Monotheism may have been the ideal of Biblical writers, but many, if not most, Israelites throughout the Monarchy were polytheists."
This is no secret even in the Bible that the Israelites frequently abandoned the Israelite religion for Canaanite religions. Even Solomon succumbed to this in the beginning of his reign (1 Kings 3:2-3). One can still hear the Old Testament lament of how only Israel abandoned their religion. But it's quite a different story to suggest the original religion was polytheistic. Had this been the case there would have never been a monotheistic cultic center in Jerusalem or Bible! The few obscure references one can strain in the Old Testament as signs of polytheism cannot account for a polytheistic origin that was replaced, especially as late as the "waning monarchy" of Ze'ev Herzog. When Akhenaten attempted to merely bring to prominence one deity exclusively (but not even attempt to eliminate the rest of the gods), after his death his changes were forcefully reversed to the point that he was given a Damnatio Memoriae by the follow Pharaoh. A pharaoh, who was considered a divine incarnation of a god was completely shunned from Egyptian history and the public mindset for merely attempting something like this - who could have gotten away with this in Israel and the endless polytheistic Israelites? The constant external pressures that Judah faced from c.900 BC - 500 BC completely rule out a strong centralized system that could have changed the entire already established and centralized cultic system at Judah that certainly wouldn't have allowed something like this and keep it so for generations. Proof of this is the consistent stubbornness of the Israelite population itself! Thus Dever's statement that the Biblical writers had a monotheistic ideal completely falls apart on itself - these writers were ISRAelites themselves who would have preferred the same thing as the Israelites if the Judaic cult's origin was polytheistic (they would have certainly known this as in the case of Akhenaten it was known that the Egyptians had many powerful deities, not just one strong one). If the Judaic cult had major problems bringing and keeping the majority of people under monotheism, how can some monotheistic movement or force be powerful enough to come, being extremely unpopular, replace the cult with monotheism, and keep it that way in the face of the Israelites? Royal support? But none of the kings are recorded as being anti-pagan and removing the high places, except three: David, Hezekiah, and Josiah! It is completely impossible!
Perhaps some of this information should be at least obliquely reflected in the article and not make it seem like archaeology is basically the Bible's worst nightmare!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renassault (talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:TALK and WP:NOTFORUM.  Your opinions on the subject matter are not appropriate here.  You should find a different outlet. Zerotalk 15:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblical and "Syro-Palestinian" Archaeology 

message: If a Google search is any guide, the term "Biblical Archaeology" is rarely used except by self styled "Biblical Archaeologists" and "Bible Historians" and suchlike. I did find "biblical archaeology, which seeks evidence and explanation for events described in the Bible"
Society for American Archaeology.
As evidenced by the Expert commentaries section, the definition and "scientific" nature of biblical archaeology is controversial. This is not reflected in the intro and "Archaeology" sections, which are based entirely on the opinions of Biblical Archaeologists and their proponents.
Keith McClary (talk) 20:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "branch of the archaeological sciences" 

message: From what I can see, the list of digs hasn't been updated in almost seven years. If BAR's Find a Dig is any indication, this list needs quite a bit of work. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 27 Shevat 5775 15:13, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Out-of-date dig list 

message: I think we should break it up into six linked pages. First we separate the secular Israel Finkelstein type interpretations from the purely biblical interpretations. Then we separate the history into three phases as (pre-Iron Age), (Age I, IIA, IIB, IIC), (Exile to Roman/Christian). 
:So you're talking about the high and low chronology debate in Israel (which is now pretty much resolved because of how close the dates have gotten) or the three main schools of archaeological interpretation (Minimalist, Centrist, and Maximalist)? I'm a wee bit confused here as you seem to be talking about several different things as if they're one issue. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 20 Adar 5775 01:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, the three primary schools of interpretation are Minimalist (also called Copenhagen school, and believe the Bible has little or no value as a history) supported mainly by Niels Peter Lemche, but none of them are archaeologists (I'm a biblical centrist and like my fellow centrists, don't much care for the minimalists),  Centrist (Bible has some truth borne out by archaeology), supported by many people such as Eric H. Cline, Fink, and a whole host of others, and lastly the Maximalists (the Bible is 100% true and this is proved by archaeology), that's the biggest school, and there you have Dever, all the Mazars, Tom Levy, etc. As for Pre-Iron Age would be Palaeolithic, Neolithic, Chalcolithic, and Bronze Age. Unless we're talking about history in terms of written records, in which case, hmmm... maybe the Merneptah stele. A good book to start with would be Cline's a A Very Short Introduction to Biblical Archaeology so we can attack this problem best. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 20 Adar 5775 03:12, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The subject is too large and contentious. 

message: The list of "unknown or disproved" items contradicts what is written in the article about these items (see Jehoash inscription and James ossuary for example). It seems that the situation is not as clear as this article wants us to believe. Do you also think that the article should be changed to reflect the uncertain status of these objects? Alæxis¿question? 20:55, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictions 

message: I think in her open lecture series Christine Hayes addressed this, stating that "Biblical archaeology" was a term used by people who tended toward credulity in the early part of the twentieth century, but recently there has been a shift to "archaeology of the ancient Near East" or "archaeology of the Levant". I'll check later (it's probably about ten hours in to the lectures...). But even a quick Googling supports the same conclusion: in .ac.uk domains we find that Oxford University names its course on the subject "Archaeology of the Bible Lands", and its recommended reading includes a book called The rise and fall of Biblical Archaeology, King's College London considers "the history of the study of so-called ‘Biblical archaeology’", and other results appear to favour "Near Eastern Archaeology" and so on; in .edu domains the only result on the first page that has "Biblical Archaeology" in a course name is from Wheaton College. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Umm... should this article specify that the term is no longer favoured among scholars?? 

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message: The Shroud of Turin does NOT belong under "disproved" artifacts, as there is NO CONSENSUS amongst scholars regarding the authenticity of the Shroud, and therefore a Wikipedia page claiming the Shroud of Turin is fake, and dismissing the ongoing battle in academia on its validity, is the equivalent of Wikipedia saying the academia of philosophy has concluded that God exists and completely hand-waving the numerous publications in philosophy arguing against God and only mentioning the ones for it. There have been many publications that have significantly razed off the validity of the Radio carbon dating performed on the Shroud, including this one -- http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch3.html, this one -- http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF, and not to mention the fact that there are have literally been conducted EIGHT different major dating tests on the Shroud, not one being the C14 dating, and all the other datings conform to a 1st century AD dating compiled here -- http://www.magiscenter.com/pdf/Science_and_the_Shroud_of_Turin.pdf -- it always amazes me that discussion on the Shroud always focuses on the one dating that is against it, even though there have been many flaws shown in the C14 dating test (as cited earlier) such as contamination. There is no agreement whatsoever amongst scholars on the validity of the Shroud, and simply going through the research publications on the Shroud at shroud.com will show exactly that, overwhelming debate and probably more support for it then against it. Either way, we should remove the Shroud from "disproved" Biblical artifacts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Korvex (talk • contribs) 00:44, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The title of the section of the article is "Objects with unknown or disproved biblical origins". Based on what you said above, I think that "unknown" still applies. Debresser (talk) 17:03, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Missed this. I agree. Only if it were accepted by the mainstream as real would we know the origin. Korvex agrees there is no agreement, so its origin must be unknown. To say its origin is known is to say we know it is genuine. Doug Weller talk 18:56, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  If that's the case of it being "unknown", then we should put more emphasis on that in the current Wiki page as it could come across as disproved. Adding the phrase "The authenticity of the Shroud is still highly debated and therefore does not have any established origins" to the beginning of the description would be very helpful.Korvex (talk) 19:44, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Korvex, you insist on making non-consensus edits. That is not a good idea on a community website. Debresser (talk) 17:45, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Debresser, I noted the edit I wanted to make before I made it by some time. No one noted any problems. Why did you undo it? It merely notes that the origins of the Shroud are unknown -- exactly what we just agreed upon.Korvex (talk) 20:46, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  You mention it as something that comes as a surprise and in contradiction to the previous text, while in effect it already follows even from the simple fact that it is in the section it is in. Debresser (talk) 23:23, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

text:  Good point, Deb. You may be right.Korvex (talk) 16:08, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shroud of Turin 

message: Some scholars from the list  added at Biblical archaeology actually lived before the minimalism-maximalism debate. So, it is anachronistic to call them either minimalists or maximalists. Tgeorgescu (talk) 05:15, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly copyvio in any case, I've rev/del'd it. Doug Weller talk 13:10, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of scholars 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This isn't a good way to write an article. Who decides what goes here? Editors. It's a form of original research and ends up a bit of a quote farm. Doug Weller talk 19:49, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Doug Weller - I think this section was started by editors who wanted to ensure that their anti-"literal Bible" POV was clearly stamped on the page. I don't think its really needed and these quotes would probably be better used sprinkled throughout the text in order to corroborate/strengthen those sections. However, I typically don't get into discussions on this page, as I just watch to keep the wolves at bay, so I've kept quiet. Ckruschke (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: However,  is mainstream scholarship POV.  But I agree that the article needs a lot of work.  —PaleoNeonate – 15:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes - I wasn't implying that it wasn't. There have been a number of Bible literalists over the past 10 yrs that have tried to insert information on this page and a number of "mainstream scholarship" folks who have been annoyed by this "incursion". Ckruschke (talk) 18:38, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert commentary - inevitably cherry picked, section should go 

message: The end of the section quotes "Evangelical Old Testament scholar Walter C. Kaiser Jr." who seems to be more of a theologian than archaeologist. I understand it was probably included to get the maximalist opinion, but that has really become a fringe view at this point. If the maximalist position is to be included, it should come from more of a subject mater expert, like Kenneth Kitchen.Yaakovaryeh (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: No time to edit it, but yes, in this article the experts need to be archaeologists. Doug Weller talk 17:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert commentaries section includes content from non-expert 

message: Wondering if we should create or is there a page on other religions archeology besides Christian based. Hinduism, Islamic, etc. There probably not alot of info on the subject, but we should have a page on Religious Archeology. Doremon764 (talk) 22:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious Archeology