Talk:Academic dress of the University of Oxford

message: I believe the reference to rags in the origin of the commoner's gown is incorrect. The streamers on the commoner's and graduate students gowns  are the remnants of long closed sleeves, which still can be seen on the flap-collared lay gowns of the higher faculties (BCL, BM, etc), and the very similar gowns of QCs, and even that of the Lord Chancellor. Like the MA gown, 3/4 of the sleeves are purely decorative, there being a slit just above the elbow for the arm to come through, and in effect the lower 3/4 of these sleeves could be called streamers. Andrew Yong 04:44, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably influence from other universities that do not have a tradition of undergraduate academic dress. It must be very recent, because in pictures of matriculations/degree ceremonies up to the 1990s you can see women undergraduates wearing their mortarboards, as they were then required to do. Andrew Yong 18:06, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

text: It is not entirely clear - as visiting students do not matriculate and are not members of the University, whether or not they wear academic dress appears to depend on the college of which they are members. Andrew Yong 15:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rags

message: I should be grateful if anybody could clear up a few things for me on Oxford academic dress.
===MA DPhil===
Firstly, why is it that a person who holds the degrees of both MA and DPhil customarily wears the dress of an MA? Most Oxford dons would fit into this category and one very rarely sees them wearing any of the possible DPhil outfits. In fact, the only time I have seen the DPhil robe worn is at degree ceremonies when new DPhils wear their robes afterwards and at college Valediction, when the rule seems to be to wear the most colourful dress one owns, so that non-Oxford doctors (who are however Oxford MAs) wear the PhD robe and hood of their other university (London and Nottingham being the most regular appearances) and DPhils (most of them also MAs) wear the DPhil robe, but not with subfusc (which I happen to think looks rather a mess). For examination invigilation they always seem to wear the MA gown and hood. I know that the MA traditionally conferred voting rights in Convocation (although I don't think that is true now). I have also been told that the MA is a higher degree than DPhil, which I think is wrong, since somebody who is an MA and a DPhil still ranks higher than somebody who is only an MA.
:Yes, but someone who is only MA outranks someone who is only DPhil. The answer would seem to be practicality and cost - you only need an MA gown and hood (£157 from S&W) to be properly turned out for all occasions. On the other hand a Doctor of Philosophy would need undress gown, hood, bands, full dress robe and convocation habit (£460 + another £200-300 for the habit) to cover all occasions. Andrew Yong 00:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Encaenia is a meeting of Congregation (used to be Convocation - Causa huius Convocationis est ut iuxta institutionem Honoratissimi et Reverendi admodum Nathaniel, Baronis Crewe, Episcopi Dunelmensis... - but Convocation no longer has the power to grant degrees), so convocation habit is appropriate. I don't know the rationale for matriculation Andrew Yong 00:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Probably because until they are granted their degrees they are not members of the university, unlike other graduands who are necessarily student members before admission to their degrees - I doubt they are forbidden to wear sub-fusc, merely not required. I suspect this has stratified into custom. At other universities you can do what you want, although remember if you are attending someone else's degree ceremony in Oxford as a spectator (i.e. neither graduating nor presenting) you would wear cap, gown and hood but must _not_ wear sub-fusc. Andrew Yong 00:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting - do you have a reference for this? -- Nicholas Jackson 10:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no rule against wearing the hat generally (and indeed, the ladies' soft cap must be worn at all times, never carried (strictly speaking, though not always obeyed). For the Square, the rule is simply that it must be removed indoors, except by the presiding officer (who doffs it at various points in degree ceremonies). This isn't so much a rule as what would ordinarily be considered polite hat etiquette. However, it is tradition (not statute or bylaw) that those without a BA carry their hat rather than wear it. As for fines, that would depend on the college more than the university, but it is certainly not the policy in the college where I have served on the decanal team, and I have never heard of another dean fining anyone for hat wearing. AMartinho3 (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

text: Second the notion that it would be interested for this to be expanded upon. 82.10.108.49 (talk) 18:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A Few Questions

message: Firstly, why is it that a person who holds the degrees of both MA and DPhil customarily wears the dress of an MA? Most Oxford dons would fit into this category and one very rarely sees them wearing any of the possible DPhil outfits. In fact, the only time I have seen the DPhil robe worn is at degree ceremonies when new DPhils wear their robes afterwards and at college Valediction, when the rule seems to be to wear the most colourful dress one owns, so that non-Oxford doctors (who are however Oxford MAs) wear the PhD robe and hood of their other university (London and Nottingham being the most regular appearances) and DPhils (most of them also MAs) wear the DPhil robe, but not with subfusc (which I happen to think looks rather a mess). For examination invigilation they always seem to wear the MA gown and hood. I know that the MA traditionally conferred voting rights in Convocation (although I don't think that is true now). I have also been told that the MA is a higher degree than DPhil, which I think is wrong, since somebody who is an MA and a DPhil still ranks higher than somebody who is only an MA.
:Yes, but someone who is only MA outranks someone who is only DPhil. The answer would seem to be practicality and cost - you only need an MA gown and hood (£157 from S&W) to be properly turned out for all occasions. On the other hand a Doctor of Philosophy would need undress gown, hood, bands, full dress robe and convocation habit (£460 + another £200-300 for the habit) to cover all occasions. Andrew Yong 00:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MA DPhil

message: I've recently seen people in convocation habit at ceremonies that I didn't think required it. I understood that convocation habit was worn only for the admission of the Proctors and Assessor and of the Vice-Chancellor, Pro-Vice-Chancellors, and Clerks of the Market, by Deans presenting at degree ceremonies, and at the Court Sermon. However, I have seen convocation habit worn at matriculation and Encaenia. Is this because they are both a kind of degree ceremony? I.e. does the Dean presenting at matriculation and whoever is presenting candidates for honorary degrees at Encaenia wear convocation habit because they are there to function as if in a degree ceremony?
:Encaenia is a meeting of Congregation (used to be Convocation - Causa huius Convocationis est ut iuxta institutionem Honoratissimi et Reverendi admodum Nathaniel, Baronis Crewe, Episcopi Dunelmensis... - but Convocation no longer has the power to grant degrees), so convocation habit is appropriate. I don't know the rationale for matriculation Andrew Yong 00:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Convocation habit

message: Finally, I wonder why most honorands seem not to wear subfusc for Encaenia. Usually they wear suit and tie (men)/suit, dress, etc (women). Some do seem to wear it, so I take it that it is allowed, and maybe even correct. On the other hand, is it only Oxonian honorands who wear subfusc and others wear the lounge suit option? Are non-Oxonians forbidden to wear subfusc?! (Would seem unlikely). I'm sure the university could tell them to wear it, or even go to the expense of giving each one a white bow tie to wear. Subfusc looks so much better...
On which note, when at some point in the future I have to attend a degree ceremony at a university that does not usually use subfusc, would it seem appropriate to wear subfusc anyway? People seem to wear pretty much anything to degree ceremonies that aren't Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, St Andrews, Edinburgh, and anywhere else requiring subfusc, so I can't see it would matter, but maybe it would look offensively "foreign".--Oxonian2006 08:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably because until they are granted their degrees they are not members of the university, unlike other graduands who are necessarily student members before admission to their degrees - I doubt they are forbidden to wear sub-fusc, merely not required. I suspect this has stratified into custom. At other universities you can do what you want, although remember if you are attending someone else's degree ceremony in Oxford as a spectator (i.e. neither graduating nor presenting) you would wear cap, gown and hood but must _not_ wear sub-fusc. Andrew Yong 00:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting - do you have a reference for this? -- Nicholas Jackson 10:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no rule against wearing the hat generally (and indeed, the ladies' soft cap must be worn at all times, never carried (strictly speaking, though not always obeyed). For the Square, the rule is simply that it must be removed indoors, except by the presiding officer (who doffs it at various points in degree ceremonies). This isn't so much a rule as what would ordinarily be considered polite hat etiquette. However, it is tradition (not statute or bylaw) that those without a BA carry their hat rather than wear it. As for fines, that would depend on the college more than the university, but it is certainly not the policy in the college where I have served on the decanal team, and I have never heard of another dean fining anyone for hat wearing. AMartinho3 (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

text: Second the notion that it would be interested for this to be expanded upon. 82.10.108.49 (talk) 18:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subfusc

message: There's no mention on this page of the more recently-introduced undergraduate masters degrees. I'm thinking of things like MEng, MMath, MPhys, MChem, MEarthSci..... Should be added but no time now! --Casper Gutman 08:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Masters degrees 

message: Does it seem reasonable to now remove the "lack of sources" tag in the Subfusc section? QuantumGroupie 10:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tag in Subfusc section 

message: "male undergraduates must remove their caps indoors. Out of doors, caps may be worn, but it is customary to touch or raise one's cap as a salute to senior university or college officers. "
"Undergraduates may not wear their mortar boards until their graduation ceremony"
These two sentences contradict each other. An undergraduate may not wear a cap until he is graduated - at which point he is a graduate. Male undergrads must not wear a cap indoors or outdoors.
163.1.42.12 16:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Proctors' and Assessor's Memorandum deals with the wearing of academic dress by student members.  Its references to the wearing of caps suggest that the second of the two sentences in the article ("Undergraduates may not wear...") is incorrect.  Does anyone else read this differently to me? QuantumGroupie 18:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undergraduates and Mortar Boards 

message: The above quote is from the article as it stands. Is it strictly accurate that the MA gown is worn after 21 terms, as stated here, or is it true that the MA gown is worn "on admission to membership of Convocation" as stated here? This wouldn't have made a difference in the old days: convocation consisted mainly of those with an MA, and as people with an MChem etc. never got an MA they were given special membership of convocation 21 terms after matriculation. Now, though, convocation consists of every graduate of the university. 
I was advised (a couple of years ago) that I should wear a BA gown during my actual graduation ceremony but an MA gown at all subsequent occasions, but the university offers little official advice -- on asking the university administration I was told to ask my college, and on asking the college I was told to ask the member of the college domestic staff who dealt with the hiring of gowns for graduation. He seemed the only one willing to pass judgement on the question! Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 15:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gowns for MChem, MPhys, MMath etc. 

message: "The University of Oxford has a long tradition of academic dress, and a visitor to Oxford during term will see academic dress worn on a regular basis"
I disagree with the opening line; one will only see subfusc worn regularly around town during the latter part of Trinity term, when the majority of students have exams. During Michaelmas and Hilary I would say that, despite what the Oxford stereotype would have you believe, it is rare to see students in subfusc on a regular basis.
* "Academic dress" doesn't just mean including subfusc.  In many colleges gowns are worn daily at Hall, for example.  One might argue about the phrase "visitor to Oxford": does this mean a tourist visiting the city, or is Oxford here intended to mean the University?  If the former, then I think you have a point, although with the number of DPhil vivas now one does see fully attired members of the university on the streets throughout the year.  If the latter is intended, then probably the sentence should be adjusted appropriately. QuantumGroupie (talk) 08:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly needs to be clearer - when on a visit to the town last month for the morning (and not going inside any colleges though I did go into the archives) I only saw one person in AD - an MA coming out of a college (forget which but it's next to All Souls). This is more than on previous archival visits - when is the best time to go AD watching? Timrollpickering (talk) 15:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - I'm currently an undergraduate and I rarely see academic dress worn outside formal hall.  I don't think it's a very helpful statement tbh and perhaps replacing it with a bit of context might make the article more helpful. JacobJHWard (talk) 05:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few suggestions 

message: This article's great, in my opinion. I think a really massive improvement would be the images, though. Two images are a bit sad looking; one is of a hood that's rarely (never, in my brief knowledge) worn, and one of a hood worn with the wrong gown. A pic of a BA hood+gown would really be the best. 
Surely there's an Oxonian out there who's willing to post up some shots of them in their various garb? If it doesn't happen within the next few months, I'd be happy to post up some demonstrative shots from when I visit the campus. To clarify (I've never uploaded photos before), do I just need to ask the subject of the photo if I can release it to wikipedia? :)122.106.209.159 (talk) 08:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, if you take a photo you own the copyright. As long as there is no breach of privacy, your subject has no right in English law over the use of his image. Andrew Yong (talk) 10:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: I know the new booklet has just come out and it uses 'edged and lined x silk'. However, I would propose the use of the term 'bound' to mean edging as put forward by the Burgon Society as edging means a slightly different thing (i.e. a strip of silk sewn on the outside of the cowl as opposed to the inside (a 'facing') and outside). Bound refers to a strip of silk on the inside and out or that the lining has been brought over to the outside. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 11:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Gowns are only worn to major public lectures - corrected. Collections and chapel depend on the college concerned. Andrew Yong (talk) 09:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description of hoods 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Does anybody's college actually still make them wear gowns for collections? I've never had to, but don't know if that's unusualFaust.TSFL (talk) 14:15, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collections