Talk:Eastern Lombard dialects

message: People, you did a great job on this page. I hope I'll help you in improving it. --Gio' 21:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: What about changing the name from Present Perfect into Recent Past, like in Italian grammar page? I prefer the latter because Present Perfect describes a particular tense in English, but in Eastern Lombard the meaning associated to the English form is not present. 
hò andàt a scöla should not be translated into: I have gone to school but into:  I went to school.
--Gio' 21:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Present perfect

message: What do you mean by that? What about the other auxiliary in the Recent Past?
I knew this could generate confusion. This is the verb 'to be', 'essere' in italian. What can be confusing is the initial 'v-' that is purely... oops, I don't recall the correct term at the moment. ;)
In my own Brescian variety a v- is often added to a word beginning with a vowel when this appears at the beginning of a sentence or when the preceeding word ends with a liquid or a nasal consonant (l, r, m or n).
for example:
iè le òt (it's eight o'clock - sono le otto) 
sóm en vòt (we are eight - siamo in otto) 
this is probably bound (or even due) to the phenomenon of the desappearing of the intervocalic -v- that also desappears at the beginning of a word.
for example:
öler (to want - volere; the initial v- in certain conditions desappears)
This phenomenon could be an interesting argument to investigate and add to the article. Isn't it?
p.s.: I got to admit that v- as initial is quite random, anyway 'éser' without initial v- sounds weird to me...
 
Ninonino 13:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Veser

message: Do you mind if I added pota to the list of words? or should we add a paragraph about pota? I think it's very original.
--Gio' 21:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pota

message: do you have any references on the Eastern Lombard?
This time it's me who did not understand what you meant.
Cosa intendi con 'se ho referenze in Eastern Lombard?' Referenze o riferimenti? Non ho capito la domanda.
Ninonino 13:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Clamengh, I do not agree with the changes you did in the article about the derivation of the '-ga' particle.
The point is that in the original text there was no mention to the origin  of the particle, just suggested a comparison with the use of the particle 'ci' in Italian. Infact 'ìga' is not correctly translated with 'avere' but rather with 'averci'.
The sentence 'Gó du gacc' can be translated with the form 'C'ho (ci ho) due gatti' that is very usual for not cultivated people speaking Eastern Lombard more frequently that Italian.
Similarly the sentence 'L'è bèl a ìga i sólcc' is better translated in popular Italian as 'è bello averci i soldi'. Of course it is not grammatically correct in accademical Italian but it is not so rare to hear it in current spoken Italian. Isn't it?
In conclusion: I don't dispute the correctness of the statements you added, but it should not be regarded as alternative to the original text but, why not, as complementary. On the other hand, just note that never in the article have been given reference to the latin origin of the Eastern Lombard words, as I think it is out of the goals of the article.
Tell me your opinion,
Ciao,
Ninonino 09:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derivation of -ga particle 

message: The part on verb is disproportinately long in comparison to the other parts; what do you think about moving verb conjugation to another page? And what title could we use? Eastern Lombard verbs? I am not myself sure about this moving. --Gio' 12:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate page for verb conjugation 

message: Please have a look at negation and the modified parts in verb conjuction. I have some doubts: gnent and negota (or I'd say nigota) are really synonimous? I would say yes, not sure though. Also, is there any preference for mia or miga?
Another thing I'd like to include: there is a verb meherés, that could be translated into it should be or, in Italian, bisognerebbe. What kind of form is that? and which root verb is it? I am really puzzled but if you have an idea, please include it.
Finally, my use of stress is really random, I know, but I dont like using stress for monosyllabic words (unless it is to distinguish è/é and ò/ó). Also, I dont like stress on plain polysillabic words like gàta, is it not enough to write gata? As personal preference, I would use Italian orthography for accents unless there are good reasons not to do so (like in example è/é).
Last point: are there other ways to write s.cèt without using a point? A fullstop is usually used to indicate period, just like a comma. Are there other conventions to express this sound?
--Gio' 15:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some remarks 

message: In my own variety of EL, 'negóta' and 'gnènt' are synonims. Or better I should say 'neènt' or 'niènt' as we do not say 'gnènt'. We also say 'negót'
'Mìa' or 'mìga'?  The answer to this question depends on which variety we choose to take as reference. If we take as reference the variety of the city of Brescia we should say 'mìa', and I would prefer it because I feel 'mìga' as a local variant. I have no basis to say which is the area where 'mìga' is used instead of 'mìa' but my sensation is that it is remarkably smaller that the area of 'mìa'. This is exactly one of the doubts that make me think we need contributions from people living in other provinces.
The examples you added in your last contributions made me think also that we should take a decision on what to do with the speech examples (there are difference from what I would say in my own variant, i.e. 'stüdia' instead of 'stödia', etc.).
I mean, we have two options: 
- choose a language variety as reference and use it for all of the examples.
- specify for all of the examples which is the variety they are based on.
There are some good reasons for both ways. The first make the article more consistent. The second gives an information on multiple varieties but makes it dispersive.
But if we choose the first way, we should revise and standardize each of the exemples that will be added in the future. Of course we should choose a variant that we are able to manage with a good mastery.
Please, tell me your opinion on this point. Bye.
--Ninonino 11:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negóta, gnènt, mìa, mìga, etc. 

message: Hi, I would like to modify the following sentence:
A particular feature of the Eastern Lombard is the interrogative form of the verb to:
*A particular feature of Lombard tongue, much better preserved in Eastern varieties, is the interrogative form of the verb...
Cheers,--Clamengh 08:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  interrogative conjugation 

message: Hi, it would be very nice to adopt a Catalan like ortography: something like is being done at Lombard Wikipedia. Please see this article. See also this one, available starting from this evening. But consider also that one should feel free to write accents when needed, since our tongues are not so strong as Catalan one: we have no teaching in Lombard tongue! A more serious issue is the question of apophonic alterarion of o: I would be for writing o in atonic position, and reading u (as in Catalan) when needed by a particular dialect (generally western ones, but some rustic eastern one in Bergamasque valleys as well, in my knowledge), for instance:
:portaal, to be read 
::/pur'ta:l/ by western speakers
::/por'tal/ or /por'ta:l/ by eastern ones.
Unified ortography is phonetic though, and maybe Lombard tongue, being endangered, could carry only a phonetic ortography. This is an item to be deeply discussed. I am also developing a "mathematical koiné" for writing mathematical articles: check when this paper is on line. Maybe I should write something like in English as well. Many thanks. 
Sincerely yours, Claudi--Clamengh 08:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catalan ortography 

message: Hi, this is a slight dialectal variation. Western dialects are affected  as well by this. They should be considered synonimous.
Cheers,--Clamengh 08:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  miga, mia 

message: Hi, I am sorry to hear from you that you do not feel convinced about Lombard Wikipedia. The matter lingua/dialetto simply does not exist there: we have no time to waste, so we have simply ignored the question. Please consider that there is no politics in that project. The goal of Lombard wikipedia is:
*to get back contexts of uses of the tongue,
to counter its tendency to desappear. This is done for elemetary socio-linguistic reasons: as scientific community teaches, the death of a languages starts from its loss of contexts in which it is spoken or written. Sincerely yours, Claudi--Clamengh 08:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe this is not the place to discuss this item: I would be honoured to invite you at my user talk page! Nevertheless, I leave this unchanged, for the moment.--Clamengh 13:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lombard wikipedia 

message: Yes, you are right.
*At English wikipedia: low risk
*At Italian wikipedia: high risk
*At Lombard wikipedia: to be evaluated: so far nothing dangerous happened.
Cheers,
Claudi --Clamengh 08:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  malicious users 

message: Hi, of course I respect any kind of habit you have towards your tongue or Wikipediae. But, please, don't give it up, and consider that writing is a fine way to preserve it: it will be archived, so...
Cheers, Claudi --Clamengh 08:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  but, anyway, please don't give up your tongue 

message: Hi, nothing prevents to write a paper for each dialect. But, so far, Bergamasque seems urgent: I hope I could do something in the next future, but I am busy at Lombard wikipedia. Cheers,--Clamengh 08:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi...nothing prevents, as well, that you translate from Lombard the article about Bergamasque, when available ;-)....--Clamengh 09:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Varieties 

message: Actually two different versions of this tradition exist. The most widespread refers to the last three days of January, but beside this a second verison exists and refers to the last two days of January and February 1st.
For example, this website (of the Oglio-Chiese Civic Museum, in Italian) relates of the second tradition:
http://www.mantova.org/museocanneto/mitfuo.htm
The relevant excerpt from the above mentioned site is:
*  30/31 gennaio e 1 febbraio "I dé de la mèrla" 
Si accendevano i fuochi con fascine di gelso. In certe zone si bruciava pure la vecchia (evidente il significato di purificazione). Gli anziani traevano auspici dalle fiamme del falò - se le fiamme 	        attecchivano velocemente e si alzavano diritte verso il cielo si prevedeva una bella annata, diversamente, il presagio non era favorevole. Il falò dei giorni della merla era rito propiziatore per la buona riuscita dei bachi da seta.
or this one from the ADL (Atlante Demologico Lombardo):
http://www.demologia.it/brescia/calendario/locale/71cal.htm
from which:
* 30 gennaio / 1° febbraio
(frazione Ponte Zanano) i dé de la merla: si dice che sono i giorni più freddi dell'anno. In questi giorni un merlo bianco cantava a primavera; ma cadde la neve e il merlo andò a ripararsi in un camino, da allora divenne tutto nero.
To explain the signification of the sentence in the tale I utilised as example, I made reference to the this second version as it better fits to the words said by January.
Ninonino 12:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I dé de la mèrla 

message: I just created the Bergamasque article; maybe it's time for most of the Brescian features of this Eastern Lombard article to also move to a Brescian article... --Dans (talk) 11:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bergamasque / Brescian articles