Talk:Female guards in Nazi concentration camps

message: The first sentence under "Recruitment" says "Female guards were generally low class to middle class[1] and had no work experience; their professional background varied: one source mentions former matrons, hairdressers, street car ticket takers, opera singers, or retired teachers."
I am not sure how people who had been matrons, hairdressers, retired teachers and so on can be said to have had "no work experience". Unless someone objects, I shall remove the mention of "no work experience" or else change it to something like "some had no work experience, but others had been been matrons, hairdressers...". 
Also, it would be interesting to know what the source is ("one source mentions..."). Opera singers seems an odd inclusion, partly because it seems unlikely and partly because the number of opera singers is small anyway, so why are they being talked about specifically in this context? Ondewelle (talk), 30 September 2010
: Whatever the source might say, I find "opera singers" totally implausible, and "popular singers" almost as much so. For example, the Viennese Singing Sisters disbanded after the Anschluss and several members fled the country because they were either Jewish or were married to Jews. That wasn't uncommon in the music business. "Cafe singers" might be possible, I suppose. Definitely a case for .
: A Google search for "KZ sängerin" yielded some hits about inmates but none about guards. Narky Blert (talk) 12:44, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence under "Recruitment" 

message: I am getting increasingly uneasy about this article (and several related ones). It's badly written, and we are all good enough editors to quickly change that, but before we do that we need to be able to confirm the (monstrous) accusations in these articles. Don't get me wrong: it may be all true, and the individual women that are named on this page may all indeed have been female prison guards. But we need sources for that kind of information. Thore 12:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Female guards in Nazi concentration camps #Camps, names and ranks is particularly lacking. I've tagged it as such. The Dissident Aggressor 13:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources, sources, sources 

message: *I have rewritten the intro paragraph to the article because as it was, it had poor grammar/style. Anon IPs, how can I work with you to come to a version you'll be satisfied with too? --Improv 15:10, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewritten parts

message: Ok, this article is in a horrible state. I cleaned up what I could see at a glance, but there's shitloads, if you'll excuse my French, that requires looking after. Seriously, this Brown character is not just apparently, but obviously so biased quoting him as a source would be like quoting GW Bush on terrorism as a NPOV. I removed the countless references to his more or less shady book - a Google on his full name gets less hits than my name, for crying out loud - from the article text. I removed a ton of unverifiable citations. I removed quite a bit of outright tragic English grammar and spelling. I removed certain quotes that were presented as facts, but come on "The vicious and evil -person-...". I removed irrelevant information. I removed some completely unnessecary info, like curent residence etc. I removed quite a lot, really, and I'd very much like someone else to help me, because this is not a small article, but DAMN, it needs a cleanup! And this Brown book which is quoted everywhere in the text, I have absolutely no faith in it being a factual book researched in any way. Someone that's not Dan Brown should look into it. --TVPR 01:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operation Rewriter 

message: According to Guido Knopp's book 'The SS', there were more than "3000 women accepted into the SS between 1942 and 1945, and as required by their Reichsfuhrer, trained to be a 'genuinely dedicated female corps of the SS'". This implies that women were fully accepted into the SS and were indeed "true" members, contrary to the article. Can anyone shed some light on to which claim is true?
~~117th~~
: Having just dug around a bit, it seems that camp guards were SS-Gefolge, i.e. civilian employees; I'm not sure if that's literally all women concentration camp guards but certainly most of them.  They were not SS-Helferinnenkorps, a part of the Waffen SS who were actual legit SS members.  I'm unclear if the word Helferin[nen] covers both or strictly applies to the latter; if not, it's probably the source of the confusion and as such should perhaps be avoided in the article.  It's not helped in that, according to the German Wikipedia, SS-Helferinnenkorps members were often mistakenly assumed during denazification to be SS-Gefolge or Wehrmacht auxiliaries, whether by accident or deliberate intent (I understand this PoV was pushed to avoid stiffer penalties, and it seems there's also been a degree of revisionism that downplays the role of women in Nazi Germany) which doesn't help matters much.
: I'm also unclear about the rank structure mentioned in this article as it doesn't seem to correspond with that described elsewhere for SS-Gefolge (which has just four ranks with different terminology IIRC).  I presume it probably refers to the SS-Helferinnenkorps but "probably" isn't good enough for me to remove it.  Edit: having checked, it's obviously specific to concentration camps so probably isn't a list of Helferinnenkorps ranks but even limited to camp guards there still seems to be some inconsistency.
: I suspect there's probably quite a bit that needs to be cleaned up, but definite information seems a little scant, annoyingly. --Vometia (talk) 07:00, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  SS Membership 

message: Can you make  new pages?
Thank you.
transl. by Google
From, Deutsche Wikipedia
Günther Tamaschke (* 26. Februar 1896 in Berlin; † 14. Oktober 1959) SS-Standartenführer (1935) Camp director of KZ Lichtenburg and of KZ Ravensbrück. Tamaschke, who had his last residence in Uhingen after the war, died in 1959.
74.239.209.92 (talk) 07:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  more info 

message: Ravensbrueck, relevant info.
There between 500 and 1,000 women  camp personnel were held while the US Army investigated their crimes and camp service. The majority of them were released because male SS were the top priority. 
SS-gefolge (females SS)
  
Anna Fest , acq and released. born 1920
Lieschen (Liesl), Anna Luise Rech was born in Oranienburg, Germany on January 10, 1923. In 1940 she married and received the name Lieschen Laskowski. In 1944 Lieschen was conscripted and sent to the Flossenburg concentration camp to be trained as a camp guard. Eventually the overseer served in various camps; Mittweida, Oranienburg Auer III, Ravensbruck, Gelsenkirchen, Buchenwald, and last in the Buchenwald subcamp at Benefeld, Germany. In April 1945 she fled the camp and was never apprehended. Lieschen has never been tried by any Allied Armies for war crimes. 
Christine Holthöwer. acq due to 'lack of evidence.' aufseherrin. Chief warden of Siemens.
 
Anna Friederike Mathilde Klein -Plaubel, Oberaufseherrin, Acquittal due to lack of evidence
The position of Oberaufseherin was the highest function in a women concentration camp, which a woman could reach as a guard in the SS retinue. 
Hedwig Ullrich, belzec
Correct spelling is : Maria Mandl, not Mandel.
74.239.209.92 (talk) 05:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  spelling 

message: I assume that this article is well-researched but, frankly, I am shocked that more of these female concentration camp guards faced no punishment for their cruelty. I know it was during a war but when you read survivors' accounts, it sounds like many guards actually unnecessarily brutally. When I read over the accounts of those few who were executed, it seems pretty random, which ones were prosecuted and which ones were not even tried. How were they reintegrated into German society after all of thousands of deaths they were involved in? 69.125.134.86 (talk) 02:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Shocking

message: The use of "today" in the headings is really poor form.  I think the attempt is to distinguish near-term post-war trials from later ones.   A better solution should be found.  The Dissident Aggressor 13:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Today" is irrelevant 

message: In its current version, there is a lot of confusion on the issue of SS-Gefolge vs. SS-Helferinnenkorps. For comparison, see German articles :de:SS-Gefolge vs. :de:SS-Helferinnenkorps. Most (if not all) female guards in concentration camps were members of the SS-Gefolge and therefor not members of the SS. Only SS-Helferinnen were full SS members, however, I don't know of a single SS-Helferin who was a guard (but that doesn't mean there wasn't one I'm not aware of). The problem of the article is, that it talks about guards, but cites literature on Helferinnen (compare notes #4 & #5). Note #6 is offline and also doesn't look as if it ever was a reliable source in the first place. The claim that there were female members of Totenkopf units seems to be originated in note #6 and is absolutely absurd – no women were ever member of a Totenkopf unit! Again, SS-Helferin was the closest a woman could get to being a member of the Waffen-SS. I doubt even the claim of female members of the Allgemeine SS … I only have some insight of German literature, so please provide English language research for this article. Thanks a lot! :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.53.92 (talk) 23:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen a number of photos of women wearing SS uniforms featuring death-head insignia on the caps.  By which I mean regular Waffen SS uniforms rather than the type seen in e.g. the Höcker Album with the oval SS pins; these were the military grey Waffen SS uniforms (male pattern with the buttons on the right) with gorget SS insignia and rank.  AFAICT the photos aren't staged and definitely aren't a case "wearing their boyfriend's uniform" as I saw someone assert (this did happen sometimes, probably involving alcohol, but these weren't examples of it) though I have absolutely no idea if they had anything to do with the camps unless the death head badge is a dead cert.  In at least one photo, one of the women is armed, which may or may not be relevant given that Irma Grese insisted during her trial that camp guards "never" carried firearms; though that claim strikes me as probably being nonsense anyway.  Talking of Grese, there're some photos of someone who appears to be her wearing the Höcker Album-style uniform with the oval SS pin-on badge; I don't know if that was ever a thing with the SS-Gefolge (later uniforms were without insignia but I'm not sure if that was always the case) or just mistaken identity. --Vometia (talk) 10:47, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I realise I also really need to seriously update my knowledge on uniforms and insignia: having checked, I think the death's head insignia on caps was a common theme in the SS and not at all exclusive to Totenkopfbande (unless worn as a gorget badge) as I'd mistakenly presumed in my bleary-eyed state.  I should probably get a book on the subject, it's sometimes easier to flick through something I can pick up while leaving a dog-eared mess of Post-Its in my wake than erratically going round in circles on websites! --Vometia (talk) 02:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gefolge vs. Helferinnenkorps 

message: In order to avoid the distasteful possibility of trivialising the suffering of millions, by including references to film treatments of the article subject, even including soft porn references, might I suggest creating a separate page for pop culture references? Although, it promises to have an unweildy title, along the lines of Female guards in Nazi concentration camps in popular culture
Nuttyskin (talk) 02:33, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Culture 

message: Hello all- I have moved this article to what I think is a title more in line with current Wikipedia practice. For reference, I am pasting a discussion from 2005 below. It was deleted instead of archived. (diff url of 2005 discussion).
I think everyone will agree that Aufseherin is a much more likely search term than Female guards in Nazi concentration camps. Eric talk 16:58, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename