Talk:Assault rifle/Archive 1

message: I've modified the article to work around some ambigious wording.  The first paragraph read "Examples of assault rifles incorrectly include the AR-15", and then continued on after that point to list actual assault rifles.  I've instead broken off the paragraph to give a short list of assault rifles (using the list and wording already provided), and added an addendum pointing out that semi-automatic rifles are not correctly called "assault rifles". Rosensteel 19:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As a temporary measure, would be alright to shift the stuff on resisting tyranny to a /politics subpage? --Robert Merkel
----
I've bitten the bullet and moved it here for the moment.  It needs to be made NPOV and shifted to a seperate politics page. --Robert Merkel
Effects on governance
Bayonet lugs, flash-suppression, large magazines and selective-fire are the significant functional differences between an assault rifle and a low-powered, lightweight hunting rifle.
These are not large differences.  Large capacity magazines and flash suppressors are easy to install.  Lightly trained persons can simulate selective fire with any type of repeating rifle, including old-west lever-actions.  Bayonet lugs serve only dire military situations.
Thus, as one would expect, forces armed primarily with true assault rifles are relatively ineffective except against unarmed persons.  Non-governmental organizations with expedient arms have successfully resisted them.
In the U.S., most civilian weapons labelled "assault rifles" lack selective fire.  Their magazines contain ten rounds or less.  They fire once for each pull of the trigger, and have no way to act as "machine guns."  This allows owners to avoid paying the $200 treasury fee and licensing required to own a small automatic weapon in the U.S.  The weapons threaten members of civil government simply because they are effective small arms.  Many owners see this as a check on tyranny, and training for civil defense.
----
How about a section clearly stating the definition of the assault rifle as historically originated by the Stg44:
# select fire, with both semi-automatic and fully-automatic modes;
# an intermediate cartridge, between a pistol and rifle round in power;
# a large-capacity detachable box magazine, usually 20 rounds or higher.
And the current usage, with a note on its controversy, of "assault weapon", which is quite different.  I believe the most relevant codified definition of "assault weapon" is in the USA AWB of 1994.
--Blikbok 17:55, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

message: The history-chapter seems to be rather long with all the examples, especially when most of the rifles already have their own separate articles. How about breaking the history to its separate article or at least breaking the example rifles to their own articles? Btw, I copied the M-16 image to the introduction chapter. --ZeroOne 12:14, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Assault_rifle article:
* Can link fire support: ...on==  The typical mission of an assault rifle is to provide fire support at ranges up to 200 meters by ordinary troops. It is design... (link to section)
* Can link anti-personnel: ...to 200 meters by ordinary troops. It is designed for massed anti-personnel fire at short ranges with simple maintenance.... (link to section)
* Can link The U: ...re often than death. Doctrines vary concerning this effect. The U.S. military states that this is an intentional goal.  Enemy... (link to section)
* Can link side-effect: ...an accounts state that the lower lethality is an accidental side-effect of the cartridge's smaller powder charge, which they tried ... (link to section)
* Can link fully automatic: ...shot under combat conditions. The U.S. still does not issue fully automatic weapons to ordinary riflemen in order to reduce the amount ... (link to section)
* Can link front line: ...ntities to radio operators, officers, and troops other than front line riflemen.... (link to section)
* Can link military training: ...valent to a squad automatic weapon is a part of most normal military training. Fully automatic assault rifles can, at a pinch, replace a ... (link to section)
* Can link light infantry: ...47, although classified as assault rifles, were designed as light infantry automatic weapons with single-shot capability, rather than ... (link to section)
* Can link single-shot: ...les, were designed as light infantry automatic weapons with single-shot capability, rather than rifles with the option of full -aut... (link to section)
* Can link semi-automatic: ...ed (for political reasons) to semi-automatic guns. Arms manufacturers had for decades advertised the... (link to section)
* Can link German army: ...cribe similar weapons.  For much of the pre-WWII period the German army had relied on the machine gun as the primary infantry weapo...
* Can link close combat: ...ry weapon, with rifles as a support weapon only. However in close combat both weapons proved largely ineffective, the machine gun be...
* Can link British Army: ...0px|Enfield EM-2]]  In the immediate post-war era the British Army, like many other forces, started research into their own ve... (link to section)
* Can link Canadian army: ...nd started development of their own rifles based on it. The Canadian army also expressed interest in the new round, both to maintain ... (link to section)
* Can link Small Arms: ...with the British, and to modernize their forces.  The Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield started working on two generally similar... (link to section)
* Can link semi-auto: ...his meant the US had spent a lot of money changing from one semi-auto system, the Garand, to another, the M -14. Other forces... (link to section)
* Can link 5.56 mm: ...t a slimmer bullet of the same general weight as the M-16's 5.56 mm (.223") would result in the same ability to be fired in ful... (link to section)
* Can link mass produced: ...tzerland|Swiss army]] is by any standards the most accurate mass produced assault rifle available. It also set the standard for the l... (link to section)
* Can link US armed forces: ...e latest NATO specification ammunition which is now used by US armed forces in their latest M16A2 assault rifles. Comparable in size to... (link to section)
* Can link private ownership: ... 300 meter precision contests and over 100,000 are in Swiss private ownership. The 550P is one of few assault rifles made in vivid colors... (link to section)
Additionally, there are some other articles which may be able to linked to this one (also known as "backlinks"):
* In January 23, can backlink assault rifle: ...Mir Aimal Kasi]] receives the death sentence for a 1993 assault rifle attack outside CIA headquarters that killed two and wou...
* In 2001, can backlink assault rifle: ...g, his mother and other members of the royal family with an assault rifle and then shoots himself. He dies three days later...
* In 1997, can backlink assault rifle: ...Mir Aimal Kasi]] receives the death sentence for a 1993 assault rifle attack outside CIA headquarters that killed two and wou...
* In 5.56 x 45 mm NATO, can backlink assault rifle: ...les and machine guns * Israeli IMI Negev SAW, Galil assault rifle and Tavor TAR-21 bullpup assault rifle...
* In Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2002, can backlink assault rifles: ...nse Forces|IDF]] post near the Gaza Strip with grenades and assault rifles. The soldiers managed to kill one of the attackers. [http:/...
* In Israel Defense Forces, can backlink assault rifle: ...i Developments: * Small Arms ** Tavor TAR-21 bullpup assault rifle...
* In U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, can backlink assault rifles: ...sed of Arabs,  withdrew with mortars, rocket launchers, and assault rifles to higher fortified positions and dug in for the battle....
* In Counter-Strike console commands, can backlink assault rifle: ...ct 4;menuselect 1;buy;menuselect 4;menuselect 3" // buy the assault rifle (ak47/m4a1) available to your side and post an error that y...
* In Patty Hearst, can backlink assault rifle: ...on April 15, 1974, she was photographed wielding an assault rifle while robbing the Sunset branch of the Hibernia bank.  Late...
* In Grenzschutzgruppe 9, can backlink assault rifle: ...h]] PSG-1 sniper rifle and G8 automatic rifle. *SIG 550 assault rifle...
* In Royal Marines, can backlink assault rifle: ...nt Weapons == * The SA80A2 - Controversial 5.56 mm assault rifle (accepts M16A2 magazines)...
* In List of Jews, can backlink assault rifle: ...ine gun *  Israel Galili, Israeli designer of the Galil assault rifle...
* In FN FAL, can backlink assault rifle: ...er of countries that adopted it, over 70.  Unlike the AK-47 assault rifle, the FAL utilized a full-power rifle [[cartridge (weapo...
* In Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, can backlink Assault rifle: ...0]] Submachine gun *Sturmgewehr (StG) 44 Assault rifle...
* In Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2003, can backlink assault rifles: ...g her younger sister) wounded when Palestinians, armed with assault rifles, attack the car they were travelling in, on road no. 6, som...
* In British Free Corps, can backlink assault rifle: ...ng methods. They were also issued with the StG44 (MP44) assault rifle and given training in its use. The unit strength was cut do...
* In Terminal ballistics, can backlink assault rifle: ...or fragmentation upon impact.  The Warsaw Pact 5.45 x 39 mm assault rifle round exemplifies a trend that is becoming common in the er...
* In Afghanistan timeline February 15-28, 2003, can backlink assault rifles: ... an orchard behind a compound, soldiers found two AK-47 assault rifles beneath a wet burlap sack. The village elder said some fami...
* In Afghanistan timeline November 2002, can backlink assault rifles: ...lian clothing opened fire on the U.S. forces with AK-47 assault rifles. The soldiers returned fire, killing one man. The other esc...
* In Fedayeen Saddam, can backlink assault rifles: ...s.     During the invasion, Fedayeen fighters wielded AK-47 assault rifles, rocket propelled grenades, machine guns, and truck-mounted...
* In Beretta, can backlink assault rifles: ...uns, self-loading shotguns, hunting rifles, express rifles, assault rifles, sub-machine guns, lever action rifles, single action revol...
* In SKS Carbine, can backlink assault rifle: ...heir own Type 56 carbine, and an SKS-derived selective-fire assault rifle, the Type 68/72. ...
* In Afghanistan timeline August 2003, can backlink assault rifles: ...spected Taliban members were captured along with documents, assault rifles, shoulder-held rocket launchers and ammunition....
* In FG42, can backlink Assault Rifle: ...of German arms manufacturers.  ==Statistics== *Weapon Type: Assault Rifle...
* In Mikhail Khodorkovsky, can backlink assault rifles: ...and stormed the plane. Several dozen more agents armed with assault rifles and pistols surrounded the jet. ...
* In Harakat ul-Mujahidin, can backlink assault rifles: ...hmir and Doda regions. It uses light and heavy machineguns, assault rifles, mortars, explosives, and rockets. HUM has lost some of its...
* In Weapons of Star Wars, can backlink assault rifles: ...re many variations of blasters; pistols, carbines, cannons, assault rifles and even machine guns
replies: text: I took care of the 21 wikilinks. Thanks! :) --ZeroOne 18:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest 21 possible wiki links and 73 possible backlinks for [[Assault rifle]]. 

message: This article looks WAY better now than it did just a short while ago.  Thanks to all recent editors.  Friday 01:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanks to recent editors 

message: I'm familiar with the Browning Automatic Rifle being used as a squad automatic weapon, but not as an assault rifle, which doesn't even have a particular use.  A source for that would be nice.
Also, I'm not so sure about mentioning the M1 Carbine any more...It was really too weak to be an assault rifle, as displayed by the same ammunition being used in the Cristobal submachine gun; and the Japanese had already been using proper assault rifle ammunition as their standard with the 6.5 x 50 Arisaka, although they were replacing it. Thoughts? Ergbert
:IMO, .30 Carbine can be considered an intermediate cartridge, although it's definitely on the weak side.  Friday 02:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BAR used as an assault rifle? + M1 carbine 

message: Many of us who teach firearms understand that the phrases of "assault rifle," "assault pistol" and "assault weapon" are all lies. In a military tactical sense the idea of an "assault rifle" is unrealistic, assinine and impractical. When a military force wants to launch a REALLY effective assault, they use vehicles like tanks, armored cars and armored personnel carriers coupled with a pre-assault artillery barrage and/or series of airstrikes. I guess that the more accurate and true definition of an assault rifle would be the 120 millimeter rifle (cannon) mounted on M1 Abrahams tank. The first use of "assault rifle" came about as the result of a radical anti-gun nut using the term in front of America's most mentally challenged people: Senate politicians. What happened was that there was a Senate committee that was "investigating" the easy access or proliferation of firearms. Most of the people on the Senate committee were anti-gun senators who were looking for a way or catch-phrase to help further their anti-gun cause. The man who testified in front of the Senate DID TELL THE TRUTH but he did so in a way that was not morally correct. In other words, he DELIBERATELY lied "by omission" to make his cause SEEM more just or right. The man who testified about "assault rifles," particularly the MP-44, tried to link the MP-44 with Adolph Hitler. His attempt was to say that Hitler, an evil man, had referred to the MP-44 as "an assault rifle." The idea was that by linking something, a rifle, to an evil man then people, politicians, could be controlled into believing that the rifle was ALSO A BAD THING. In this idea, the easily led politicians would think that, "Evil man likes this assault rifle so that makes ALL rifles bad." Hopefully, the Senate committe would never stop to think things over or ask experts what was really true. Sadly, this is EXACTLY what happened and the Senators fell for the trick used by anti-gunners. 
Here's what REALLY happened with Adolph Hitler and the MP-44. Hitler, a World War One veteran, was AGAINST the MP-44 being developed. Hitler, at the time of World War Two, wanted to use his nation's resources to manufacture those rifles that had ALREADY been developed, such as the Mauser K-98 rifles,  because they were tried and true firearms. Hitler did NOT want to expend his nation's time, technology and material, at a time of crisis, on developing more new technology as far as firearms were concerned. With firearms, Hitler thought that the Mauser bolt-action rifle was the best thing to meet the infantry's primary firearms need. When Hitler found out that the MP-44 had been developed AGAINST HIS DESIRES, he was not a happy man. Hitler did, however, listen to his generals for once and looked over the MP-44. Hitler DID refer to the MP-44 as a "sturmgewher" or as a "storm rifle." Where the anti-gunner lied by omission is that he did NOT explain that Hitler's use of the word sturmgewher was ACTUALLY meant in the OPPOSITE MANNER. Hitler was, in his own way, actually calling the MP-44 a rifle to be used AGAINST STORMING (RUSSIAN) SOLDIERS in the east! Another way of saying it was that Hitler actually meant that the MP-44 was an "anti-assault or anti-attack rifle." The actual omission part was that in the German language, like in American slang, words take on the opposite meaning or another meaning. In the USA when somebody says, "That was one BAD pizza." they're actually saying that the pizza was great or really good. The SAME THING applies to the Germanic language. I tend to think that this is one of the reasons that defining an "assault rifle" is such a hard thing to do. Look at all the different LEGAL definitions of what is and is NOT an assault rifle. Until our politicians understand that they need properly define what is and isn't right, our nation will be legislating innocent people into becoming criminals with more and more complex laws. Such is the situation LEGAL gunowners find themselves. Politicians are being lied to and the gunowners become the victims of new laws. One of the most interesting facts is the over 99% of ALL guns have and NEVER will be used to commit crimes. The best way to explain the growth of the assault rifle lie can be summed up in the phrase, "Too much hype being used to spark uncontrolled emotional anger in an unrealistic manner to create new and  overzealous laws that victimize innocent people."
The 120mm gun on the M1 Abrams can't be called an assault rifle,because it is a smoothbore.
Dudtz 10/15/06 5:45 PM EST
:Well, this tangenital rant is half right, but you'd have made a lot more sense if you understood that "assault rifle" is a militarily accepted term with a pretty specific definition, and "assault weapon" is the generic catch-all meaningless phrase used by deceptive gun control advocates who want to scare you. SenorBeef 06:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assault Rifle Lie 

message: Anyone know of any good articles on the future plans for soldier carried assault rifles/weapons ?  Would make a good add on paragraph to this article.  Thank you SirIsaacBrock 20:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The future?? 

message: I did look it up.  The term "assault rifle" does not appear in the assault weapons ban (scroll to Title XI).  If some anti-gun groups used the term, they should be quoted as such. Boris B 08:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This term was not used in the 1994 law 

message: My open question as to whether the assault rifle will continue to be useful in the face of rapidly improving ballistic protection is appropriate for a discussion of its future and was supplied by Dr Gary Roberts who is one of the members participating in the NIJ tests ongoing as we speak. 
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001286;p=1#000000
I don't think an entire section devoted to a discussion of bullet proof vests is appropriate because at that degree of emphisis it beomes off-topic disussion. I hope you will reconsider the creation of a new section and also the use of 3rd party material taken from another web site. Since Dr Roberts is actually part of the NIJ team I think he qualifies as a 1st party source. His posts on tacticalforms were his chosen forum of presentation because he is a moderator and frequent contributor to that site.
I have added back my open question because I feel strongly it is a question that bears directly on the  future of the assault rifle.
Solidpoint
:Hello, I added a response and reverted your entry before I found and read this entry, so I apologise now.  Your original entry had merit, but was uncited and moderately well written, so I rewrote it.  I agree with you and I believe body armour will have an impact on assault rifles and the cartridges they use in the future, in fact, they must or risk having a diminishing value.  "The future" section should obviously default to the future of assault rifles, but I believe should have subsections for items that will affect it, such as, body armour and cartridges, scopes etc.  This framework will allow the growth of the article in a systematic and orderly way.  I think having a basic framework for others to plug in information would be the best way to go.  Or it has the potential to turn into spaghetti with everything mixed into one section.  Thank you 69.156.78.7 16:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think u added the name dragon body armour  69.156.78.7 22:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creation of an entire Bullet-Proof Vest section 

message: Somebody needs to get their head around some terms and then go edit the "The Future" section. A bullet is the thing that comes out of the end of the barrel. A cartridge is a piece of brass that just happens to also determine rather precisely the exact dimensions of a combustion chamber which the powder burns in.
In view of this it is clearly wrong to discuss "cartridge ballistics". The cartridge doesn't have ballistics, the bullet does. To be ballistic anything something has to at least move. A cartridge doesn't move except in and out of the chamber. A cartridge can influence internal ballistics and is usually the dominant consideration in internal ballistics, but ballistics is all about what the bullet does. It's the thing moving.
The NATO standard cartridge is also not 5.56, that is the bullet's diameter. The NATO, or one of them, standard cartridge is 5.56x45 where the 45mm is the length of the piece of brass known as the cartridge.
AK-47s ALLWAYS "accept"s ("chamber" is a much better word; "accepts" seems to imply it could reject it. This is nonsense) the 7.62 caliber but only if it is seated in a 7.62x39 Russian cartridge loaded with a 123 grain 7.62 caliber bullet. This combo is usually manifest as an M43 round. All of this is wrong though as the standard Russian rifle is now the AK-74 which fires a 5.45 caliber bullet from a 5.45x39 cartridge. If any of this is confusing to you the please stop “contributing” to this page. It’s a big enough mess already thanks to the help of the ignorant.
The final bit of gibberish in this section is a reference to internal ballistics where armor penetration is concerned. Internal ballistics is all about how powder burns and makes pressure and pushes the bullet out of the barrel. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether a bullet is made of tungsten, lead, copper or Velveta cheese. The reference to terminal ballistics is almost as weak as this generally refers to the study of the bullet’s ability to wound and an armor penetrating bullet will not be focused on this. It will be focused on getting through armor so it can do any wounding at all.
I think I’ll give this a week to fix itself and then just delete this superfluous sub-section. The problem with getting off-topic is you end up making a fool or yourself.
:Wrong, the cartridge consists of all parts including the bullet, case, gunpowder and primer.  It is not one section or the other. 67.71.154.35 10:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, only someone who buys the ammo someone else loaded thinks a cartridge includes the bullet, primer and powder. If your assumption were correct then given that there are something like 25 different bullets in 6.5 caliber I could create 25 different and distinct cartridges simply by loading the same identical cartridge with different bullets. Only sloppy thinking on the part of K-Mart shoppers allows for nonsense like this. A cartridge is a precisely dimensioned piece of brass which when chambered in a well-defined barrel constitutes a very precise combustion chamber with very precise dimensions and an attendant set of internal ballistic characteristics. Btw, is there some point to signing your "no-name" signature at the end of your post? Since you are too cowardly to abandon the safety of obscurity what's the point of signing?
Solidpoint 10:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A cartridge is not a bullet and vice-versa 

message: The graphic I posted was prepared using Hodgdon pressure-safe load data from their online load tables and BC info from Sierra's website tables. The only round which required judgment was the Chinese 5.8x42 because the BC is not known in the West as far we could determine.
The conclusion that the 6.5 Grendel is THE MOST powerful assault rifle cartridge does not even depend on it carrying its energy better than any other. It is simply an observation that at 2,500 joules it is the most powerful round, period. Now if you weren’t such a lazy sod and actually went and looked up this info, or checked out the very lengthy discussion as to how this information was derived on the 65Grendel.com website you would not resort to blantant vandalism of my post. Or perhaps you are one of these hang-wringing ninnies that can never get comfortable with any statement of an absolute. At any rate, I will revert to my original post and if you vandalize it again you will be reported for your vandalism. 
In time FAQs regarding this .jpg will be answered in an annotated .pdf so that the assumptions and estimates will be bound and inseparable from the graphic. In the meantime you can either accept my conclusions or challenge the facts. Anything else is vandalism. Statements of fact are not "unencyclopedic" no matter how reluctant you are to accept that something will always be the best in its class.
Oh, and assault rifles, not ammunition. must maintain a delicate balance between competing factors, such as recoil. Bullets don't have recoil, weapons do. Heavier weapons have less, gas operated weapons have less, and light, bolt operated weapons have more. If you are purporting to be an expert RE: assault rifles nobody should have to explain this to you. Just because you can run a computer doesn't mean you are qualified to "contribute" as an expert on a subject. The fact that I am having to explain this to somebody ought to tip them off that they aren't an expert and should butt out and let people that are write this page. Beyond that I know exactly what was being discussed, assault rifles, not bullets because I wrote that paragraph and I know exactly what was on my mind when writing it. This is hardly a subtle point as a cursory read of the sentence in context should quickly reveal. Therefore, the correct heading is NOT "Ammunition", it is "Summary" as this is a discussion of whether the assault rifle will even have a place as a combat system in the future and what remedies are likely to prevent its obsolescence. It is absolutely NOT a discussion of ammunition, never was and never should be.
 
Solidpoint 10:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SwatJester's Vandalism not appreciated 

message: I removed a chunk of text inserted by an anon user - it seemed not to add anything to the article and added a slant that seemed not entirely encyclopedic. However, if anyone else feels it should be there, please feel free to edit the article accordingly. Carom 00:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text addition 

message: Is this section needed?  Possibly a link to separate page instead of getting into this area.  It could go on and on with vehicle armor, windshield penetration... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.37.229.206 (talk) 17:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Body Armor Section 

message: Cleanup Co-ordination	Cleanup Co-ordination
                     	This article has recently been tagged as requiring cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.
The article may have been flagged as needing cleanup because it has been suggested that:
*the article needs formatting, proofreading, or rephrasing in comprehensible English. 
*the article has multiple overlapping problems. 
*the article is very short and might need expanding, removal or merging with a broader article
For a full list of possible problems see Wikipedia:Manual of Style.
As part of the cleanup process, the automated bot PocKleanBot has generated this notice as a focus of cleanup efforts, and also contacted several contributing editors of the article to bring their attention to the problem. You should use this section to discuss possible resolution of the problem and achieve consensus for action. Only when there is a consensus that the article is now cleaned up should you then de-list it by deleting the cleanup tag from the article, this causes the article to drop off the monthly cleanup-needed list page.
===Discussion===    	
===Discussion===
I've performed a cleanup and culled some junk from the article as well as making some changes to readability and factual corrections. I removed large chunks of speculation and two separate tangetially related discussions of American law and Body armor.  These discussions don't belong in this article as they're repeated elsewhere. --Asams10 20:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point 

message: |}</div>
I've performed a cleanup and culled some junk from the article as well as making some changes to readability and factual corrections. I removed large chunks of speculation and two separate tangetially related discussions of American law and Body armor.  These discussions don't belong in this article as they're repeated elsewhere. --Asams10 20:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: The article reads, “having largely superseded or supplemented larger and more powerful battle rifles,” but does not explain why. I couldn’t care less the types that is replaced- I’d be far more interested in the why.
:The reasons are laid out in the History section. There isn't room in the lead of the article to explain the reason why the switch was made I think.--Sus scrofa (talk) 14:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ¿Superseded? 

message: I notice that the film Black Hawk Down is footnoted as a source (twice). I am not sure if a film is a reliable source for determining the stopping power of a bullet. Thoughts? --Eyrian 22:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Hawk Down - Appropriate Source? 

message: Something that could really improve this article is inline citations. I'm not saying it's not cited, I'm just saying the citations are not added into the document with the ref or citeweb tags. The article cannot improve to good article or better without the citations. Want to help me improve it that way? (I'm asking you because the large majority of my time is spent now with my wikiproject and reconnaissance/infantry related articles, and I don't ahve time to do it singlehandedly here. ) ⇒ SWATJester On Belay! 22:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll add it to my watch list and get to it at another time.  This article was pretty trashed and will require some more time... time I don't have right now.--Asams10 20:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asams 

message: I will have to read this carefully to make specific comments, but in general what has been done so far addresses many of my complaints. Mark Bowden is a reputable author but there are also web-published OIF After-Action reports that cite problems with the 5.56 NATO round. IIRC the 101st Airborne deployed to Iraq with M14s and were very happy they did due to its much greater effective range. The 82nd Airborne used M4s which are virtually useless due to insufficient velocity (citation of Fackler’s work would help a lot on this point) to fragment beyond about 115 yards. The point being there are other sources that could be referenced to point up the deficiencies of the 5.56 platforms.
I was never a fan of the body armor section - except to the extent it was a "thumbnail" to invite the reader to click on a hyperlink so they could better understand the arms race between assault rifles and body armor. Currently the assault rifle is effective as we aren't facing many enemies wearing quality body armor, but this condition can not be presumed to prevail in perpetuity. Body armor will very soon dramatically affect assault rifles, but it is still OT beyond a mention to my way of thinking.
The list of features that were supposed to be required of all future assault rifles was a mess. It was very inconsistent in the level of detail of the various bulleted points and most of those features seemed to be features of existing assault rifles, not features that would make future assault rifles different or superior.
I will have to read the intro to the page again, but some short list of attributes that defines an assault rifle might be useful and THEN a short list of what new technologies are appearing on the scene that might address the challenge of body armor MIGHT be helpful. I think I have covered it pretty well though in the summary paragraph. The USMC has M240's in eval with Ti receivers for example, but that is not an assault rifle technology - yet. There is no mention of electronic primer systems either and these are COTS from Remington as we speak, but not used by any assault rifle I know of. The Israelis have a gun system that is made to shoot around corners and features a hi-rez digital optical targeting system and small LCD screen so the shooter can see and shoot around the corner. If we throw in electronic primers the system immediately gets the ability to be fired by remote control from around the corner, block or world. At some point though this becomes a discussion that is inappropriate to assault rifles and more appropriate to target acquisition systems.
Mostly I wanted to check in as I had a message asking for my help and I wanted to see what had been done. So far I like what I see. 
Solidpoint 08:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvements appreciated 

message: I added this important distinction back to the intro as weapons such as the M1 Carbine did not have full auto capabilities and yet that platform is still considered by many to be an assault rifle. In addition, since US doctrine favors sustained, aimed fire over "spray and pray" it is entirely possible that weapons without full auto (does the M4 have full-auto capability?) capabilities, that are fielded and generally viewed as assault rifles, will return to the scene. Solidpoint 08:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not trying to be a prick about this, but the distinction being made is incorrect.  The M1 Carbine is NOT an assault rifle as it lacks the capability for full-automatic fire.  The M2 and M3 carbines can be classified as such being selective-fire weapons. Selective fire means that it has BOTH semi- and full-auto modes. Selective fire requires BOTH modes.  A semi-automatic only firearm cannot be classified as an assault rifle, but a firearm without the capability for semi-auto fire CAN.  Putting the term selective fire in confuses the subject here.  Further the M4 Carbine and M16A2 ARE capable of full-automatic fire in bursts.  The definition of full-auto is that it fires multiple shots with a single pull of the trigger, even if limited mechanically at some point. Interestingly, one can remove the burst mechanism from the M16A2 (and M4) quite simply and utilize it as an automatic rifle.--Asams10 17:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Solidpoint, please don't personally attack me again. You are wrong, but I'm not going to take it up here in a personal manner.  Your edits give me the impression you have no idea what the difference between semi-automatic, automatic, burst-fire, and selective fire are.  I'll try not to patronize you, but please read the selective fire page for a clearer definition and DO NOT personally attack me again.  I am narrowing no definitionis and what I wrote in the selective fire article was true.  The article was wrong, and I corrected it. I neither said nor did I imply that an assault rifle could not be limited to burst-modes and, in fact, burst fire is fully-automatic fire. You'll need to do some research before you respond.--Asams10 22:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: No, a pistol grip is not one of the defining characteristics of an assault rifle.  Glad we got that cleared up. cacophony ◄► 20:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Selective fire weapons qualify as assault rifles 

message: Look, it's a bit ridiculous to use the movie Black Hawk Down as a source for claiming that 5.56 doesn't have the stopping power of 7.62. It's definitely not NPOV -- using specious sources and trying to use wikipedia as a platform to advance a position would be the opposite of neutral. Please remember that both bullets are very small, much smaller than a perosn. They can't knock someone over - the rounds just don't have the momentum to do so. The wound channels created by the bullets hitting flesh might put someone into shock, which would lead to them falling over, but otherwise the concept of stopping power is just mythical. Shot placement is really what matters if you're looking to take someone down - destroying the brain or otherwise damaging CNS, or causing massive trauma to the chest are the only ways. Having a slightly larger round matters far less than where that round is placed, and movie commandos are not a valid source.  If you have real sources regarding 5.56 and a higher incidence of failure to take down enemies than 7.62, then you should cite them.  Otherwise, I think that section should be redacted at the very minimum to fit in with Wikipedia standards. 140.247.146.103 20:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 308 win (7.62 NATO) loaded with 168gr bullets will put out somewhere between 2500 and 2700 ft/lbs. a 5.56 round with a 62gr bullet at 3100 fps puts out just 1323 ft/lbs. also, beyond 200m there have been lots of field reports and independent tests showing that the 5.56 doesnt fragment at all, or fragments far less. while civilian ammo in this round (basically .223) has combated this to some extent with bullets especially designed to fragment and/or mushroom (ie the nosler ballistic tips and similar), military ball ammo (FMJ) has no such bullets (iirc this is governed by the Geneva convention). now let me address your second statement, that they couldnt knock something down. did you take physics? a foot pound is a unit of work, ie force times distance. one foot pound means the work required to move one pound one foot. thus a bullet with 2500 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle could theoretically move a 2.25 ton block 1 foot across a frictionless surface (assuming an inelastic collision). if you dont think that knocks a person down... well go shoot a tub of ballistic gel or something i guess. (one ballistic table here  ). on the other hand, i certainly agree with you on movies being a bad source, but the basic argument is true. Qleem 00:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I read the online Philly Inquirer story and not the book, but I agree about the Delta and his 5.56mm. In fact, the only instance I remember in the online version about lethality was a M60 gunner having to use multiple bursts to down an old Somali gunman. In other words, a 7.62 NATO round. Go figure.Mytg8 (talk) 14:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Hawk Down (again) 

message: The article seems too long to me, cluttered with information on other types of weapons and on particular weapons. Would anyone be opposed to severely cutting down the article, taking out perhaps more than half of the history and future sections? Ergbert 05:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article too long 

message: There is no universally agreed upon definition of assault rifles; the respected authors Maxim Popenker and Anthony G. Williams, for example, do not use the definition that was added to the article, and consider the Cei Rigotti and Fedorov Avtomat to be assault rifles. Two of the sources provided were at least in part by the same person, and the third, if it provides exactly the same definition, probably just copied on of the others, or vice versa; it's really the same as if I were to provide the book Assault Rifle by Popenker and Williams, as well as their separate websites, in an attempt to show consensus where there is none. Ergbert 01:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Popenker and Williams are indeed not the only ones who use sloppy terminology in describing any shoulder fired self-loading gun an assault rifle. The cited sources are only those who enumerate the cited characteristics of assault rifles compared to those of battle rifles and automatic rifles. There is no point in boasting a listing of hundreds of books and magazine articles I personally red over the last 30 years in different languages. There is definitely a consensus in literature about a narrow definition of what an assault rifle is, and what it sets apart from other types of firearms like battle rifles. And indeed, there is a lot of sloppy use in terminology, but this should not brand mark a correct definition as “disputed”. --Dutchguy 18:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of assault rifles 

message: I feel it should be removed as this artical is about the assault rifle as a whole not just a specific country. That section is more gun politics then actualy about the weapons itself. (ForeverDEAD 04:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a section describing the differences between the two similar sounding concepts is useful, it clears up any confusion. --Sus scrofa 11:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assault weapon VS automatic weapon section. 

message: Sturmgewehr coined by Hitler?  Really? by him personally - a politician, former corporal who fancied himself as a great Napoleonesque general but whose country's military success (atleast early in the war) was due to the Wehrmacht officers?  Could they military strategists and leaders have coined it?  Sounds very similar to Sturmmann (stormtrooper), and even if a source were found what is to say that the gobshite Goebbels lauded the credit upon the Dear Leader for his usual nefarious propaganda purposes? Andy Fisher-Scott (talk) 21:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hitler insisted upon having a personal say in weapons procurement. He had opposed procurement of the StG44, until witnessing a demonstration where he called it a "sturmgewehr". Numerous sources back this up in this case. The first to come to mind is Military Small Arms of the 20th Century by Ian Hogg.--LWF (talk) 21:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hitler]] 

message: Can we also include the different variations manufactured by the Indian Ordinance Board. Like the INSAS and Kalantak?Shovon 19:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different Variations 

message: The fourth paragraph of this section of the article says that the Russians favored a smaller round, but the standard Russian rifle continued to use a 7.62 round while the US changed to .556.  To what does this paragraph refer?--71.80.74.17 (talk) 16:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Late 50's and 60's 

message: there is no universal definition of an assault rifle, so how can this article be NPOV? this article refers to automatic rifles predating ww1 as assault rifles but not the hkg3 which was based off the stg45? lets reaassess this  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.243.200 (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is the most B.S i have ever heard. The term "Assault Weapon" is used by poloticions. Assault rifle is a universal term that refears to these rifles. Besides there is quite a differnce between a Assault rifle(G36 and Automatic rifle(Browning Automatic Rifle) БοņёŠɓɤĭĠ₳₯є  23:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "Assault" is what is confusing the ignorant here.  It does not mean "Assault" as in "assault and battery", rather it is used as a synonym for storming or assaulting an objecive. The level of ignorance of this basic fact on both sides of the argument is tedious and comical at times. The media assume that it means to hurt and kill... well, yeah it does... it's a FIREARM, DUH! It is a tool for hurting and killing.  That is its function.  That is its design.  The media tend to get all up in arms over the fact that anybody is ever hurt or dies.  EVERYBODY dies, that is a basic fact of our existance.  Some people just deserve to die more than others.  Of course, it is the soldier, citizen, cop, or bad guy who kill, not the weapon itself. There isn't any F#$%ing point of view on assault rifles, they are a reality and a descriptive term. --I am Asamuel (talk) 20:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  this whole article is inherently POV 

message: The reference to "8" yellow internet press article is way unprofessional. What's next? Armed space aliens? While AK uses Stg-44 sights idea, it's a completely different firearm. Just close the front sights with your hand on the picture and you will see it yourself. The whole article in life.ru is just another "assault pump-action shotgun with evil pistol grip" media stupidity. Zero facts and knowledge. The question mark in the topic should be a big hint to you already that the article is a junk "science."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.88.207 (talk) 11:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  AK-47 - German link? 

message: Nowadays, in German you would write words like Infanterie Kurz Patrone in one word: Infanteriekurzpatrone or at least hiphenated: Infanterie-Kurzpatrone. But I don't know how they spelled it back then - are there reliable sources? FAThomssen (talk) 10:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infanterie Kurz Patrone etc. 

message: An anon has recently decided that it wants a picture of an M-16 and not an AK-47 in the lede. In the process, it removed some cleanup work and tagging in the introduction. This should be reverted; the AK-47 is a more global symbol, as well as being the most common assault rifle design in the world, and obviously the cleanup work should stand. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:44, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The Ak-47 belongs on top since it's the most common in the world with 100 million made versus the M16 with 8 million made.--Sus scrofa (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction image / length 

message: is it just me, or does the paragraph which describes the M16's development from the M14 seem a bit storybookish and somewhat untrue, since the M14 and M16 were developed separately? Ansh666 (talk) 05:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  M14-->M16 

message: You can assault someone with a semi-auto rifle, so I personally thought of the term "Assault Rifles" as inaccurate and unscientific.  I've also heard that the term was created in the 90's to shine bad light on automatic weapons.  While that rumor has yet to be verified, I think the term "Assault Rifle" should redirect to this page and the page name should be changed to "Auto-Rifles", since that would make more sense to me.
-Manic Tiger  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.204.194.193 (talk) 02:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, etymology doesn't determine meaning. For example, a "lesbian" isn't a Greek person from the island of Lesbos. A cursory search on google books shows that the term was in use as early as 1967:  and not as a propaganda term either. You might be thinking about the term "assault weapon" which I believe came into prominence in the 90s.--Sus scrofa (talk) 18:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Do not confuse the term "assault rifle" with "assault weapon". The latter was indeed an intentionally sloppy politically motivated term with little or no technical relevance, solely intended to be able to include a maximum of firearm types in the intended ban on firearms in the United States.The weapon type that was coined "assault rifle" was the result of a deliberate development concept, and can be clearly defined. As stated, the term "assault rifle" is a straight translation from the German word "Sturmgewehr". This term is still used in German to cover the original definition, as it is in French with "fusil d'assaut" and in Dutch "stormgeweer". A slang word like "autorifle" is too broad, and could cover several arms types other than assault rifles, including selective fire battle rifles, automatic rifles like the Browning BAR, SAW's and light machineguns.--Dutchguy (talk) 07:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shouldn't they be called Autorifles? 

message: There has been repeated insertion of this image in this article under the 1970s–1990s: Development of features and form factors section, often replacing the high quality image of the FX-05 Xiuhcoatl. These edits are being made by a user(s?) that, at the very least, has an extremely pro India POV. A look at the accounts contributions will show the questionable edits.
At any rate, I don't believe the image of the INSAS needs to be in this already crammed full section. Its not a particularly notable design, compared to the other rifles in this section. — DanMP5 15:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that either the INSAS or the FX-05 needs to be illustrated by an image in this article. Neither are mentioned in the text, and to my no knowledge neither are particularly innovative weapons that need a mention in a general article about assault rifles. Possibly some of the other images in the section can go to.--Sus scrofa (talk) 17:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Sus Scrofa. Neither of the two are particularly noteworthy and neither really belong on this page. The FX-05 being a clone of the G36, and the INSAS, an amalgamation of several other legacy designs (FAL, AK). Koalorka (talk) 18:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeted addition of INSAS image 

message: The article omits one requirement or characteristic which assault rifles must meet.
Assault rifles must be designed for carbine mode firing, i.e. a cartridge must be in the chamber, and the action must be in forward position before the trigger is pulled.
Where this requirement is fulfilled, the assault rifle is qualified for use by snipers as the trigger will cause only minor movements in the gun before the shot is fired.  In its forward position, the action will also block the opening where spent shells are ejected and protect the rifle's inside from being soiled and jammed by dirt which might intrude through the opening.
As far as I know, all assault rifles ever designed have exhibited this feature while all older types of submachine or machine guns had their actions in hindmost position in the ready-to-fire mode.  
Being unable to cite sources of authority, I have refrained from including this contribution in the article.  Will anyone please provide a competent source?
--84.163.199.138 (talk) 14:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another requirement for assault rifles 

message: The caption of the photo of the AK-47 rifle states that it was adopted in 1949. This rifle was actually adopted in 1947, thus its designation; AK-47 means Automat Kalashnikov model of 1947.204.13.113.209 (talk) 18:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats a mistake, and a very common one. The weapon was adopted in 1949, and -47 was just a (probably unofficial) designation of 1947-built prototype (more or less identical to first serial production model, but still a prototype). The name "AK-47" is undoubtly of Western origin, and was never (!) used it the USSR / Russia untill maybe 1990's when the Hollywood production came en masse. In ANY official military document is was just - AK, without any numbers. Please do not ask me why, cause I don't know. Before the AK, official designations with numbers really were used. The next, "modernised", model was the AKM, again - without numbers, adopted 10 years later in 1959. The AK74 was the first mass produced AK-family weapon to have numbers in the designation. 95.79.192.115 (talk) 09:54, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet Adoption 

message: I have stumbled across the pages for the [AEK-971] and [AN-94], and I was rather intrigued by the subject matter.  The AEK incorporates a counterweight to control recoil, while the AN uses a, and I quote from the Wikipedia page, "blowback shifted pulse" system.  
These seem to be relatively interesting examples to the 21st century category, as they represent systems of increasing a soldier's efficiency by reducing or delaying recoil.  
My question is whether there are other assault rifles like the AEK and AN that attempt to alter recoil?  Is such a category worth adding to the 21st Century Developments section?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercenary90 (talk • contribs) 05:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, from my POV neither the AEK nor the AN can be called anything like "21st Century Developments" at least because both were essentially developed back in the 1970-s... the AN was in development since early 1970 or even late 1960s, and Avtomat Alexandrova - basis for the AEK - was developed even before AK74 was adopted. And concerning the second question, for example the G11 used the same basic principle the AN employes, the difference is that the AN can fire only 2 bullets without substantional recoil, and the G11 - 3 bullets (but it's a prototype weapon never officially adopted, you know, and it had its magazine moving while shooting, what may be unpractical, while the AN has 2 magazines - one (main) does not move while shooting, and the second ("intermediate") moves with recoiling barell-bolt-reciever group). 95.79.235.190 (talk) 12:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian Weapons in "21st Century Developments" 

message: Gentlemen, in our effort to play by the rules and to respect the ongoing work of all the contributors to this section we are formally requesting inclusion to this section "Assault Rifle" under the "External Links" section. We are a non-commercial Press Release organization that works on behalf of most of the leading weapons and equipment manufacturers INCONUS. Essentially when there is new weapons, equipment or gear being released within the industry (MILSPEC and Other) we are contacted to release the information to the general public. It is our desire to be listed as:
Tactical Gear News: The latest tactical gear news covering weapons,training, clothing and tactical equipment.
The site is located at: www.TacticalGearNews.com
Milspecnews (talk)milspecnews  —Preceding undated comment added 11:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: 3/4 of the entries on your main page aren't rifle-related at all.  Faceless Enemy (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition To Assault Rifle Request 

message: The article states that The AK-47 was first adopted in 1949 by the Soviet Union Red Army. The yeas is correct, but the designation (-47) is not - and also since 1946 the Red Army was renamed and became the Soviet Army. Just look at the article. 95.79.192.115 (talk) 09:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Red Army 

message: is it me, or does this sound rather incorrect:
"The AK-47 was first adopted in 1944 by Nazi Germany. It fires the 7.62x39mm M43 round."
Now, im guessing that should be changed, yes? HeatedPete 20:54, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's called vandalism, and you are encouraged to take the initiative to revert such changes. —Darxus (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caption for AK picture at top of page 

message: Civilian M4's/AR-15's are NOT select fire, yet on Wikipedia, in their individual pages (and in the rest of the world), they are called "assault rifles." They are defined by the U.S. Government, and various state governments as assault rifles as well. Please remove the erroneous first sentence that proclaims, incorrectly, that select fire is a requirement to be an assault rifle.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.85.10.237 (talk) 12:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Then go fix it if you're so adamant in your belief.  Dr. Whooves (talk) 16:03, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  It doesn't have to be select fire. 

message: In the Russian classification of weapons AK-47 - is a prototype of assault rifle. In Russian, this asault rifle is called "AK".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.26.30.32 (talk) 19:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The AK-47 name is common in English language sources, so it doesn't matter much what it's named in Russia for the English wikipedia.--Sus scrofa (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  AK-47 ? 

message: The article from Russian Wikipedia states detailed report about AK-47 and STG-44
[on the establishment of a Kalashnikov in Russian]
Maybe it's need to verify and correct historical notes. (added 21:31, 8 March 2012‎ by User:188.244.42.2}
Few guns the media and public call assault rifles/weapons are. A semi-automatic 22 can be made to look like a military weapon ( scary but far from an assault gun - heck a single shot 22 can be made scary enough looking to have half of the people in America to faith ). The word assault in the media should be chsnged to "scary".
159.105.80.204 (talk) 15:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hypotheses on the establishment of a Kalashnikov 

message: The m16 was a great gun  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.188.31 (talk) 22:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  M16 Assault rifle 

message: Amerigo Cei-Rigotti developed a rifle between 1890 and 1900 with the characteristics of an assault rifle including selective fire rates and a 6.5×52mm Mannlicher-Carcano medium-power cartridge. Issued in 1905, the rifle was tested but did not see service.
Fedorov Avtomat was "revolutionary" cartridge first. Cartridge - reduced power.
Arisaka cartridge for Russian - also reduced power. 109.126.228.248 (talk) 04:16, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why then Chei-Rigotti? 

message: AK-47 and StG44 are used as examples of Assault Rifles. They both fails the definition by not using intermediate-power cartridge and being Battle rifles (same thing really). Where am I confused?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.157.189.5 (talk) 02:38, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Both the 7.92×33mm Kurz (StG 44) and the 7.62×39mm (AK-47) have intermediate power compared to pistol cartridges (e.g. 9mm P) and rifle cartridges (e.g. 7.92×57mm Mauser). Modern day assault rifles use even smaller cartridges that form their own sub-category of intermediate cartridges (small caliber/high velocity, e.g. 5.56mm Nato) but they are still in the same class of cartridges (about the same effective range, recoil etc.). Trying to find the meaning of words through etymology can be confusing, as in a strict sense the 5.56mm Nato is "intermediate" between the 7.62×39mm and a pistol cartridge, however the sources we use generally do not use this definition so we shouldn't either.--Sus scrofa (talk) 11:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition vs. Examples 

message: I hold that the German term "Sturmgewehr" was mis-translated as "assault rifle", because the German noun Sturm is not associated with storming something in the English sense. Unless it is very modern usage, there is no German verb, "sturmen".
The German verb conveying that sense is "angreifen". The German Sturmgewehr is intended to convey a storm of bullets as in the English "a hail of fire." Stan Barnett, Mocksville, NC. 66.226.45.185 (talk) 15:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It might be that the word "Sturm" wasn't used to mean "(military) assault" at the time but both Google translate and http://www.leo.org/ (online German dictionary) lists "assault" as one possible translation of "Sturm". Google translate lists "assault" as one possible (but unusual) translation of "Sturm", with "Angriff" and "Überfall" as synonyms to "Sturm" in the sense of the English word "assault". LEO gives one usage of "Sturm" as a verb as "to take so./sth. by assault" which translates to "jmdn./etw. im Sturm erobern". I don't know German grammar, so I don't know if "Sturm" can ever be rendered as "Sturmen", but it seems that (at least nowadays) "Sturm" can mean "assault"/"attack" etc. I do know that during World War I, the Germans used the term "Sturmtruppen" which the Wikipedia article describes as "assault" or "shock troops", so it seems to me that "storm" can be used in the same way in the German and English language. It would help if you can give a source that shows that "Sturm" wasn't used in this sense during World War II.--Sus scrofa (talk) 16:24, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes stürmen or erstürmen are German verbs. The first can be used in a literal sense. "Es stürmt." refers to the weather, meanig there is a storm going on. Stürmen also signifies to assault in military sense, with a bit of a connotation of success. When the term erstürmen is used it definetly refers to an sucessfull assault. Of course these verbs can also be used outside of their military context, example: "Nach dem Spiel stürmten die Fans das Spielfeld."
141.70.3.84 (talk) 23:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of term, "assault rifle" 

message: I really think the hatnote needs to explicitly say that the thing that is sometimes banned or restricted by gun control laws is an assault weapon, not an assault rifle.  Otherwise some of our readers will get even more confused than they are already.  That is, if the hatnote just says that assault rifles are not to be confused with assault weapons, and then goes on to say that assault rifles are selective fire military firearms that often are capable of full-automatic fire, then some readers will think that laws that ban or limit assault weapons restrict full-automatic firearms, when, of course, they restrict semi-automatic firearms.  Somehow the hatnote should point this out, while still being very brief.  Something along the lines of, "For the firearms restricted by some current, proposed, or former laws in the United States, see assault weapon".  — Mudwater (Talk) 14:00, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: My thinking was that to be informative we should prominently say that this is a different term than "assault weapon" because these two terms are very commonly confused, and possibly point out that common confusion. Right now it's not in the hatnote or the lead.  I think that the "not to be confused with" wording is very good for accomplishing this / those.  Alternatively a mention in the lead would be second best.     Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:28, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Mentioning it in the lead section too sounds like a good idea.  But I think it's much better to have a hatnote that states that the firearms restricted by some laws are assault weapons, not assault rifles, rather than just saying that they're not to be confused.  I would only half-joking add that it's too late for that -- they're already confused! — Mudwater (Talk) 14:45, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I was sort of saying that the common meaning of  "not to be confused with" actually means "is often confused with, and they are not the same thing".    It also seems a shame to waste that spot on a term which is seldom used much less confused:  "assault gun" which is basically a cannon.   But a note in the lead would be almost as good.  Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hatnote 

message: "Chauchat was introduced, a light machine gun and a precursor to the modern assault rifle."
In what way was the Chauchat (A recoil operated full power automatic rifle) a predecessor to the assault rifle? It is my opinion that this was added to give this weapon some significance it doesn't have. 
By the same merit the section about the BAR should be removed, particularly this part. "The American M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) copied the Chauchat concept in a more reliable design but was not introduced or used in any significant numbers before the end of the First World War." 
As light machine gun predecessors, these weapons do not belong on the assault rifle page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.245.163.20 (talk) 19:30, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Chauchat introduced the concept of a weapon that provided mobile automatic fire, it could be used as a rifle in a pinch (the French named them "machine rifles" and the Americans called them "automatic rifles" not machine guns). The French deployed their Chauchat more as rifles, they deployed assault teams that had an equal mix of Chauchats and rifle grenades. Before the Chauchat, machine guns were semi-static weapons that could not move with the troops. The Chauchat is similar to a assault rifle in many ways (and the French even considered developing an intermediate cartridge to it), the main difference is the use of a "full" power cartridge. It is logically possible for the Chauchat and the BAR to be predecessors to both light machine guns and assault rifle.--Sus scrofa (talk) 19:49, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  1900-1930 Section Issues 

message: This definition is confusing to me:
: An assault rifle is a selective fire (either fully automatic or burst-capable) rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. It should be distinguished from the US legal term assault weapons.
The term burst-capable is undefined. The Encyclopedia Brittanica definition you refer to seems to imply that both automatic and semiautomatic rifles can be considered assault rifles, and that is consistent with dictionary usage and gun publication usage that I've seen.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathan.robie (talk • contribs) 22:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Have added text necessary to clear up the confusion among the various technical terms (fully automatic, burst capable, and semi-automatic.)  Hope this helps.  Miguel Escopeta (talk) 23:12, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

text: "Burst mode" might be a better description? Anyway, weapons capable of burst mode fire a set number of rounds per trigger pull when set to burst mode (e.g. three for the M16A4) and I think the Encyclopedia Britannica just counts burst mode as another form of automatic fire. Most assault rifles that have burst modes also have fully automatic modes (rounds are fired as long as the trigger is held down). The US changed their M16s from the trigger group safe-semi-auto to safe-semi-burst (M16A2) after experiences in the Vietnam War, the thinking was that surprised or panicked soldiers would hold down the trigger and empty their magazines prematurely, but IIRC the M16A2/M16A4 are still assault rifles as the burst mode enables the rifle of approximately the same rate of fire as a fully rifle you just have to keep pumping the trigger.--Sus scrofa (talk) 00:26, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Define the term burst-capable