Talk:Shiv Dayal Singh

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It's very hard to be objective about a belief system when you're a believer.  Articles connected with religion, faith, and belief (and unbelief!) are often replete with biases and views that can and will be misleading.  Regrettably, many religion-related articles in Wikipedia, especially those about individual religious movements and individual leaders, will most probably never be acceptably objective, given the situation that these are often edited by true believers to conform with their world-view.  (Albeit, write-ups by outsiders tend to contain mistakes regarding details of fact and information.)
Setting aside relatively "minor" (so to speak) issues of spelling, grammar, and unscholarly style, this article has serious issues regarding content.  As a first, it uses honorifics (Sahab, Sahab Ji) – not appropriate for an encyclopedia.  Just to call attention to its assertions would fill the article with "citation needed" notices.
As of this writing, most of the article was apparently composed by an adherent of the largest Radhasoami group, Radhasoami Satsang Dayalbagh Sabha, which for a century has been the acute rival of the Radhasoami Satsang Central Administrative Council which took ownership of Soami Bagh (across the street from Dayal Bagh) and controls the tomb of Shiv Dayal Singh.  This article has the potential of becoming the focus of an edit war, and probably will be, sooner or later, given its biases.  It’s just waiting for a single provocation from an adherent of some other Radhasoami group.
Unfortunately, scholars who might give an acceptable level of objectivity are often seriously uninformed, and sometimes reliant on secondary sources that carry deceptive prejudices.  Also, most scholars and academicians would not bother to have their painstaking research and writing ruined and wasted by non-scholars in a free-for-all work like Wikipedia.  The most well-known non-Indian academicians who have written on this topic are Dr. Mark Juergensmeyer and his pupil Dr.  David Christopher Lane.  Lane is an adherent of one Radhasoami guru, Faqir Chand, and this sometimes colors his opinions.  Overall, still, Lane is mostly objective, reliable, and sturdily familiar with the subject.  Juergensmeyer, however, is all too apparently an outside observer who lacks a deeper grasp of the inner workings of the movement – a generalist who lacks the expertise of the specialist.  Juergensmeyer's Radhasoami Reality, for example, contains one too many lapses of information and spelling that are unacceptable for an academician’s work.
Ultimately, only time will tell if this article (like other religion articles) improves or deteriorates further.
Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 01:12, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Radhasoami Faith

message: * "Shiv Dayāl Singh Sahab ... was born 24 August 1818 (Agra, Uttar Pradesh) and died on 15 June 1878 (Agra)."  —  "Sahab" is an honorific used by devotees. It was not his name, and Shiv Dayal Singh did not refer to himself as "Sahab."
* "Sant Satguru in Radhasoami Faith is the true living guru who is representative of Supreme Being Radhasoami on earth."  —  This is a doctrinal statement.
* "In terms of Guru Worship, Radhasoami Faith resembles with Kabir Panthi and Sikhism (Nanak Panthi)."  —  Sikhs worship Ekankar Sat Nam, not the human guru.
* "...Shiv dayal Singh Sahab Ji is regarded as the Gracious Supreme Father who brought the spiritual current of Radhasoami Sahab on earth."  —  doctrinal statement
* "He is the founder of Radhasoami Faith."  —  Debatable.  Not all who revere Shiv Dayal Singh are Radhasoami devotees.  Sant Mat adherents and others know that the term "Radhasoami" was given by Salig Ram.  ("My Mat is of Sat Nam and Anami. Radhasoami has been started by Salig Ram." — Shiv Dayal Singh)
Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 08:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral?

message: ===Sar Bachan Radhasoami (prose), Part II, verse 250, Agra version===
     “If a person has met with the perfect Sat Guru, performs His service, attends His Satsang and has love for and faith in Him, but before he fully achieves his object, i.e., gets any inner realization, the Sat Guru departs, then he should, if he is keen to attain the goal, cultivate the same love for and faith in, the succeeding Sat Guru, that is, the one appointed by the departed Sat Guru and should perform His service, attend His Satsang and consider the departed Guru to be present in Him. He should know that Shabd forms of the Sant Sat Guru and the Sant are one, though outwardly in bodily forms they appear to be two.
     “As regards faith in the past Sat Gurus it is infructuous for the reason that no love can be generated for them, since one has not seen them nor attended their Satsang. If one has not met the Sat Guru, there can be no devotion in His feet. Therefore an earnest, i.e., zealous devotee ought to devote himself to the manifested Sat Guru, i.e., Sat Guru of the time, and should make no distinction between Him and the previous Sat Guru except as regards the bodily form and thus have his work accomplished. But if a man is not keen on further progress, he should, with love for, and faith in, the former Sat Guru in his heart, meditate on His form and practise according to the method taught by Him. In the end that Sat Guru will, by that very Form, help him as much as possible, but his object will not be fully achieved. He will have to take birth again when he will meet the Sat Guru. Then he will devote himself to Him, attend His Satsang and attain complete salvation.
     “When the Sat Guru of the time departs, He appoints some one as His successor in whom He re-incarnates and thus continues the work of regeneration of Jívas as before. When, however, such is not the Mauj, He returns to His original abode. Therefore an earnest devotee should make no distinction between the previous Sat Guru and His successor. But those who are bigoted devotees will not come under the allegiance of the succeeding Sat Guru. For this reason their progress will also stop at the stage they had reached during the time of the former Sat Guru and there would be no further progress and improvement.”
===Sar Bachan Radhasoami (prose), Part II, verse 250, Beas version===
     “If anyone is accepted by a perfect Sat Guru, has love and faith in him, serves him devotedly, but before he has advanced far the Guru departs, he should continue just the same with his love and faith, and go on contemplating his form and performing the exercises prescribed by the late Guru. In the end, that Sat Guru in that very form will do this work to the extent that he deserves.”
Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 11:02, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Sar Bachan Radhasoami'' (prose), Part II, verse 250

message: “If anyone is accepted by a perfect Sat Guru, has love and faith in him, serves him devotedly, but before he has advanced far the Guru departs, he should continue just the same with his love and faith, and go on contemplating his form and performing the exercises prescribed by the late Guru. In the end, that Sat Guru in that very form will do this work to the extent that he deserves.”
Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 11:02, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Sar Bachan Radhasoami'' (prose), Part II, verse 250, Beas version

message: Todd Chambers (talk) 20:50, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Mythology of the Radhasoami Faith

message: Shiv Dayal Singh was the founder of Radha Soami Sect. His full name was Seth Shiv Dayal Singh Ji Maharaj. My request is that its article title be corrected. 2409:4055:4E0E:59:88F3:16CD:2E00:9BAC (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No. See WP:HONOR. Honorifics like Maharaj Seth ji cannot be added in title. Venkat TL (talk) 16:47, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Please provide evidence for this claim. Only independent media and publishers will be considered as evidence. Venkat TL (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please also note that the English Wikipedia uses the WP:Commonname in English. A very crude measure of this can be found by comparing Google searches. Shiv Dayal Singh gives 23,900 matches, whilst Seth Shiv Dayal Singh gives just 1,140 results - so the page will remain named Shiv Dayal Singh in any case. - Arjayay (talk) 19:41, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change this article title