Talk:Saturn IB

message: Does anyone think there's any point to having information about the H-1 and J-2 engines on this page when it's basically a duplicate of part of the H-1 and J-2 pages? Mark Grant 20:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no-one seems to care, I've removed those sections. We should really expand the rest to be more like the Saturn V article. Mark Grant 23:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Engine info

message: It doesn't matter that more people understand metric units, if the vehicle was originally designed in English units. When the original source is in English (a United States vehicle designed in the 1960's when the US public was not familiar with metric units), policy on historical subjects says that should be the primary to reduce the chance of unrecognized conversion errors.
There happens to be a serious conversion error in the table, which proves this point: the Instrument Unit was not  tall (!), it was only  tall.
The statement on the Human Spaceflight page recommending metric-only is IMO misguided and warrants discussion. It conflicts with the general WP policy to include both units (regardless of which is primary) so that no one is disenfranchised. Whether you like it or not, most people in the US are not familiar enough with metric to do the conversion in their heads. Back in the late 1970's our government misguidedly tried to "encourage" the conversion on us, with no success. Today we buy soda by the liter; that's about it.
If you want to keep metric primary (esp. in the Infobox, if consistency among articles is a requirement) that's one thing, but deletion of the English is not warranted. 
What does everyone else think? JustinTime55 (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You will find that most 1960s Apollo NASA press kits contained metric units of measurement. The original article was written with metric, and most spaceflight articles are now in metric on Wikipedia.  It's the world standard, that even NASA uses today. However, if it is accurately converted, and you will find in many Wikipedia articles dealing with spacecraft do contain both, usually the metric is primary and then Imperial Units (again this gets confusing because it depends on either using English or American gallons, which is one of many units that differ in Imperial Units). Metric is less confusing overall, but as long as the converted units are using the right kind of gallon, for instance, then add it in. Wikipedia does have an automated subroutine for this. Abebenjoe (talk) 00:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the response. I still think it would have been better to improve the update by putting the metric units first, rather than simply reverting it. In doing so, you deleted several number corrections, including takeoff thrust. With your kind permission, I will re-insert the English units after the metric. And it would be less confusing to measure fuel metrically by the liter rather than cubic meter (or Imperial gallons), wouldn't it? Do you buy gas by the liter, or by the Imperial gallon? JustinTime55 (talk) 15:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I buy natural gas for my house by the cubic metre, and when I'm not bicycling, I buy gasoline for a car by the litre. If it's in a gaseous state, it's measured by the cubic metre, if it is a liquid, it's by the litre. Also, I do believe the Instrument Unit is three metres not three feet: I've seen it at the Kennedy Space Center and the Washington Air and Space Museum, and it was taller than a human. I'll check my Saturn 1b manual tomorrow and confirm this. When adding non-metric units, please make sure the conversion is accurate.--Abebenjoe (talk) 05:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

text: I just looked up the measurements for the third block IU and indeed all third block IUs had a height of 36 inches (3 feet) or 911 millimetres (0.91 metres). The diameter is the same on all three blocks at 266 inches (22.17 feet), or 6,756 millimetres (6.76 metres). All AS200 series flights flew with the third block IU. For a reference, see Saturn V News Reference (Changed) December 1968.  I remember it being bigger, but that simply might be extra panelling that attaches the IU to the S-IVb or simply I didn't judge the height correctly. Either way, the definitive measure is from the NASA handout, 36 inches.--Abebenjoe (talk) 06:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  English vs. Metric units 

message: * Here's a tip: specific impulse = (thrust x burn time) / propellant mass (assuming the burn rate is constant, which is nearly true for this rocket. Thrust, and therefore specific impulse, change with altitude (air pressure) for the first stage.) The first stage value had to be incorrect, though the second stage value was good.
* If "finspan" is analagous to the wingspan of a plane, it includes the total width from wing tip to wing tip, so includes the fuselage width. Therefore finspan must be measured from one fin tip to the opposing one, including the stage diameter. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sanity check on parameters 

message: This article does not conform to Wikipedia Style Guide on use of gender neutral language:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender-neutral_language
The references to "manned" and "unmmaned" should be changed to "crewed" and "uncrewed" to follow current practices on technical language.  I have attempted edits but they have been labeled as "disruptive" and edits have been reverted.  Please justify those reversions in light of the violations to the style guide.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by CooNeo (talk • contribs) 05:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if it can be "done with clarity and precision". In this case, it's neither clear nor precise. You're making up your own terms instead of using clearly established ones. - BilCat (talk) 05:55, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "Crewed" means spacecraft/mission had human crews, and "uncrewed" means that it had no crew, so the description is clear and precise -- please point to a specific ambiguity if you still find this confusing. This is the current state of practice in describing NASA space missions.  Please see NASA Style Guide http://history.nasa.gov/printFriendly/styleguide.html and examples like http://appel.nasa.gov/2014/10/30/an-uncrewed-mission-designed-to-advance-human-space-exploration/ -- I am most definitely not making up any new term, and I believe that this article must conform to inclusive language use. CooNeo (talk) 16:52, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: If this article were about a current space vehicle, I might agree with you. But we should avoid the fallacy of WP:presentism: judging historical events by current standards. The terms "manned" and "unmanned" were in use when this historical, now obsolete program (Saturn/Apollo) was conducted. No one is being excluded by using those terms here. "Gender-neutral language does not inherently convey a particular viewpoint, political agenda or ideal;" I believe you are pushing a particular agenda by insisting that "manned" and "unmanned" is not "inclusive language use" when applied to 1960s spacecraft.  JustinTime55 (talk) 19:55, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I have thought about whether this is an example of presentism (or worse, revisionism).  I do not think rewording "manned" with "crewed" is presentism because I am not placing judgment. I also extended my thought on whether this is revisionism -- it would be if I were to, say, refuse to refer to the Johnson Space Center's former name, Manned Spacecraft Center, but we are just dealing with the choice of adjectives here. I believe that what we are dealing with here is an evolution of English language, and I still believe that phasing out "manned" and rewording with "crewed" is appropriate. This is definitely not one of the exceptions discussed in WP:GNL. I think we all share an agenda to write articles in a relevant manner to present-day audience -- avoiding gendered language is an evolution of the language, and (though I'm fairly new at WP editing) it seems to be a movement recognized at Wikipedia. By the way, I would like to target https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson_Space_Center next since that article deals with current matters and still refers to things by "manned" -- but I see that you edit that article a lot so I don't really want to open up another thread unless you think it's appropriate.  CooNeo (talk) 18:48, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manned vs. Crewed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello everybody.
In every other language version of wikipedia I checked they tell me that the height of the Saturn IB was 68 m, only the English page says it's 43.2 m? A factsheet I found states 224 ft which is about 68 m too. The reference in the article leads to a "page not found". Every image showing a size comparison between Saturn IB and Saturn V shows clearly that the IB is more that half the size of the Saturn V (110.6 m). So what? 82.220.81.242 (talk) 09:52, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You can read, I presume? It says "without payload". The Saturn IB was launched in three separate configurations; the most common one (with an Apollo CSM spacecraft) stood a total of 224 feet. However, it launched once with only the Apollo LM spacecraft inside the Spacecraft LM Adapter and a nose cone on top, and once with no spacecraft at all, just a nose cone. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:42, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Height?