Talk:14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician)

message: :Illustrations are very old. I could try to get some non-copyright images of these:
:https://www.theprogressreport.ca/monuments_to_nazi_collaborators_in_edmonton_vandalized_again
:also:
:https://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/10130501--disgusted-oakville-cemetery-facing-calls-to-remove-what-s-being-called-a-nazi-monument/
:
:Are we sure this is really past tense? The 14th Waffen SS seems to be going strong in Edmonton!
:Keith McClary (talk) 21:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memorial honouring the 14th Waffen SS Division in Edmonton Canada 

message: there has been a lot of edit warring today over the inclusion of the standing ovation given to Iaroslov Gunka by Trudeau and much of parliament. i have restored material removed by  because it is well cited and it seems notable enough at least for the AP to cover it. .usarnamechoice (talk) 21:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for the removal at the time was that there was zero reference to this from AP that I could see and I found it irrelevant as it's not really about their history. A lot of the other references were biased IMO especially from the Trudeau haters.  Msheehan1974 (talk) 22:21, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: in addition to the user removing the Associated Press link, they used edit summaries that could be viewed as misleading: "Removed irrelevant content." and "Removed disinformation not verified in any mainstream media outlet.". in both instances, the AP article is in the text removed by this user. .usarnamechoice (talk) 22:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

text: Crazy we live in a time with such flagrant Nazi apologists trying to re-write history. I bet you think you're one of the "good guys" too. Very sad. 2405:9800:BA00:7E1B:E0E1:70A3:4D3:656C (talk) 04:28, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no "nazi apologists" here, just editors who actually understand the scope of the article. It would be more suitable to include the controversy regarding the ovation for Iaroslov Gunka on Canadian politics related Wiki articles. Zenomonoz (talk) 05:32, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent edit warring 

message: Some trolls appear to be trying to shoehorn in a UPA memorial and claim its a 14th SS memorial. There is a source used, by Rudling, but it obviously fails verification since no "addition" ever took place and they are clearly two different sculptures. Obviously we can talk about the U1A logo memorial on this page, but trying to conflate it with, or create fiction about graveyard memorials fails the good faith sniff test. LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 22:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you specify which part of Rudling's text you consider problematic? Mhorg (talk) 11:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

text: And why would one of the brave Ukrainians in Canada want to change this article I wonder 74.109.240.116 (talk) 14:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memorial photos 

message: Remove hyperlink to 'political concessions' in the third paragraph of the Organization heading.  The link refers to conceding one's seat in an election, unrelated to the political concessions being referred to in the paragraph. 208.127.198.220 (talk) 13:34, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: . Note: I looked for a better target and the best I could find was Concession (contract), which still wasn't quite right; this usage is covered in the disambig article Concession. A link to Negotiation may be appropriate, but it's a questionable pipe for that phrase and I'm opting not to include that there.  BelowTheSun  (T•C) 14:33, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2023 

message: * 1.  Were members of the unit required to actually join (become formal members) of the Nazi Party?  The article isn't clear.
* 2.  What links or legacy does this unit have with the neo-Nazi para-military units (Azov, etc) currently fighting on behalf of the Ukrainian government against the Russian intervention in Ukraine? 152.130.15.98 (talk) 18:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: For question 1 - it seems unlikely that most of the members of the division would be allowed to join the actual German Nazi party as they wouldn't be German enough.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course, to actually discuss this in the article needs sources.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This source  suggests that only Germans could be members of the Nazi Party and therefore that the Divison's Ukrapnian troops were not Nazi party members.Faustian (talk) 22:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: wikipedia states on the Gottlob Berger article that this was no longer a requirement by 1943. .usarnamechoice (talk) 23:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  That talks about membership of the SS, not the German Nazi party.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:01, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: oic.. okay thanks for clarifying for me. :) .usarnamechoice (talk) 19:56, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

text: According to the RSN, Jewish Virtual Library is a generally unreliable source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Two questions

message: CHANGE:
    56- The Galicia Division (14.Waffengrenadierdivision der SS [gal. Nr. 1) should not be indicted as a group.
    57- The members of the Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada.
    58- Charges of war crimes against members of the Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission.
    59- Further, in the absence of evidence of participation in or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.[55]
TO:
56. 	The Galicia division (14. Waffengrenadierdivision der SS (gal. Nr. 1) should not be indicted as a group.
57. 	The members of the Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada.
58. 	Charges of war crimes against members of the Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, of before this Commission.
59. 	Further, in the absence of evidence of participation in or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.
60. 	No case can be made against members of the Galicia Division for revocation of citizenship or deportation since the Canadian authorities were fully aware of the relevant facts in 1950 and admission to Canada was not granted them because of any false representation, or fraud, or concealment of material circumstances.
61. 	In any event, of the 217 officers of the Galicia Division denounced by Mr. Simon Wiesenthal to the Canadian government, 187 (i.e., 86 per cent of the list) never set foot in Canada, 11 have died in Canada, 2 have left for another country, no prima facie case has been established against 16 and the last one could not be located.” [55]
 Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals Report Part I: Public, Honourable Jules Deschenes Commissioner, Ottawa, Canada, 1986, ISBN 0-660-12172-7, p.261. Roguezebra (talk) 17:12, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: How would including more parts of this quote help this article? Please read MOS:Quote Aaron Liu (talk) 17:59, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2023 

message: "Political scientist John Alexander Armstrong wrote in 1963 that Nazi indoctrination was absent among the soldiers within the division."
When you go to the text itself, Armstrong states, "More significantly, the political training and indoctrination of the soldiers, instead of being in the hands of Nazi ideologists, was left to the nationalist leadership." John A. Armstrong (1963). Ukrainian Nationalism. New York: Columbia University Press, p. 171
This was standard practice in the SS; political officers were not present in the SS as it was pretty much expected that, by swearing an oath to the Reich and Hitler that you were on board with National Socialism.
If we then go forwards and look at who exactly the nationalist leadership of formations like the OUN and UPA were, and the things that they wrote, including the Himmler speech the article already cites, it is plainly evident that Nazi ideology was a core part of this SS division, as it was a core part of all SS divisions.  To imply otherwise is to whitewash history and selectively say that Nazism was not a core part of the SS, which is factually incorrect. 137.99.142.46 (talk) 17:31, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: But Armstrong also says (p. 174 of the 1980 edition) "German permission to provide chaplains and the absence of Nazi indoctrination among the soldiers helped make the unit acceptable to the church." - which suggests that at least in the eyes of the Orthodox church, the Division was thought to not have been indoctrinated - this doesn't mean that all the units that got absorbed into the division (such as the Police regiments) weren't indoctrinated elsewhere.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:14, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Armstrong discusses that on page 174 where he goes into the reasons why the Church was "induced [...] to sanction the project", i.e. chronologically, this is still prior to the unit's formation, and not a reflection of the Church's judgment about the unit's political leanings. It's still talking about the same thing as the IP's quote: the concessions given to the Ukrainians; I see no contrast or contradiction between either passage. DFlhb (talk) 18:32, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd phrase our sentence this way:  or something to that effect. DFlhb (talk) 18:46, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that sounds good. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

text: The nationalist leadership indoctrinates them with Ukraine nationalism of then , which while allied with Nazism is not Nazism. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:26, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ukrainian nationalism of then was antisemitic and called for the liquidation of Poles, Hungarians, and Roma in pursuit of a purified Ukraine.  This is a distinction without a difference; if you are allying with Nazism ideologically, this is professing support for Nazism. We can very easily find leaders of Ukrainian nationalist organizations who would have been involved in the political education of the 14th professing support or otherwise swearing allegiance to Hitler and the Reich - both oaths which the 14th SS division would also have expected of its soldiers. I'm really not sure why this is not seen as being equivalent to supporting Nazism. 137.99.142.46 (talk) 18:43, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  the citation from armstrong saying that nazi indoctrination was not present is not what the citation actually says. 

message: Change
"Political scientist John Alexander Armstrong wrote in 1963 that Nazi indoctrination was absent among the soldiers within the division."
To
"Political scientist John Alexander Armstrong wrote in 1963 that Nazi indoctrination was left to the nationalist leadership within the division."
I am using the same source to correct the small error as the source does not suggest that there was no nazi ideology in the SS division (SS are under command of the nazi party remember).
It suggests they were already indoctrinated and trusted to do it themselves.
"The nationalist leaders were also encouraged to support the Galician Division by certain favorable conditions which they ex-acted from the Germans. According to Nationalist accounts, the unit was to be used only against the Soviet forces and never against the Western Allies: thus it would be in a position, they thought, to come to terms with the latter when the opportunity arose. Whether or not the Germans officially agreed to this stipu lation, it is certain that the condition was observed. More significantly, the political training and indoctrination of the soldiers, instead of being in the hands of Nazi ideologists, was left to the nationalist leadership"
From Page 171 of 
"John A. Armstrong (1963). Ukrainian Nationalism. New York: Columbia University Press, pp. 170–175"
Thepangaean (talk) 19:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Already done See the section above Aaron Liu (talk) 14:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2023 

message: The journalist Lev Golinkin says that the members of this division who were allowed to resettle in Canada after World War II were used as strikebreakers by the Canadian government. Should we add a mention of this to this article? Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTd8HovAG0I 173.88.246.138 (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Worth a mention if we could fully verify. I don't think a comment on Democracy Now via YouTube is a good source for this though. Is it written down somewhere in a more verifiable way? He also doesn't say they were used as strikebreakers, but rather that they were allowed in because they were ready to act as such. Would be good to get a good source before including. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:50, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in Canada as [[strikebreaker]]s 

message: The marches are "annual", I think we should just write that clearly in the article:
*2009
*2010
*2011
*2012
*2013
*2014
*2016
*2017
*2018
*2021
Mhorg (talk) 13:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: None of them say it is annual outright and several years are missing, not to mention some of these videos are not from news outlets. You could list the years where there were marches. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:13, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

text: The source you added into the article is alright IMO. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:25, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree - it's an excellent source so text is now good. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:32, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marches in honour of the division 

message: He does not appear to be a reliable source.  Not a historian, but a community activist and social worker: .  Probably should be removed. Irving Abella, while a historian, is a specialist in Jewish-Canadian history, not World War II or Ukrainians.  This is questionable.Faustian (talk) 23:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It also says that he's a journalist. Why shouldn't that count? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Because he is commenting on historical matters not current events.  Moreover, the source for this is an article in a political journal and not as peer-reviewed historical work: . They have other articles taking the Palestinian side, etc.  It's some sort of partisan source activist source. This should be removed. Faustian (talk) 03:36, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The “historical matters” were current events at the time. Why shouldn’t old news articles be used? Providing attribution for opinions instead of stating them as fact should be enough.As for Irving, the article only sources him for stuff about SS immigration to Canada, which is under his speciality of Canadian history. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:16, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: But Irving' specialty is Jewish Canadian history, he doesn't deal with Ukrainian immigration..Faustian (talk) 22:41, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Immigration of former SS members to Canada is very close to the history of Jews in Canada. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

text: The Maple appears to be an activist partisan blog, not even a regular news website.  Another of their articles is called "Is Chrystia Freeland A Fraud Or A Nazi Sympathizer?". I think any info sourced to its articles doesn't belong in encyclopedia article.Faustian (talk) 03:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the Marvin quote might be replaced with this source Aaron Liu (talk) 13:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Could be better, but I can't access it. Ideally it would be a historian commenting or a per-reviewed historical work.  This is already an old report, no longer a current event.Faustian (talk) 22:47, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a quote so that shouldn't matter. You can access it through the WP:LIBRARY and here's a direct link. It also seems like this was a newspaper article for The Globe and Mail. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Sol Littman

message: The first item in the "Notes" section is "". The erroneous "italic text" (which is ironically bold) was introduced at some point earlier this month. -sche (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Italic text" error