Talk:Constitution of the United States/Archive 1

message: I edited the section on impeachment and added a comment to it a disputed section. A senator may have been expelled but not impeached.
That raises a question as to the accuracy of the claim that there were 16 impeachments (now 15). Guanaco
Re: RickK
According to Article 1, Section 5, it requires a two-thirds vote to "expel" a member of either house of Congress. That vote is taken within that house. Since expulsion and impeachment are two different things, I removed the reference to the impeachment of a senator. See . The number of impeached officials as shown in the edited paragraph is what is disputed. Since part of it has already been proven to be incorrect, it is risky to assume that the rest will be. Guanaco 05:11, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you have no specific objection to any specific section of that section, I am removing the header.  RickK | Talk 05:30, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Senator William Blount was impeached in 1798.  The Senate did not convict him because they had already expelled him, but he was impeached by the House.  See also .--Jwolfe 11:53, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on impeachment 

message: Someone placed this in the section about the bill of rights.  I italicized the text in question.  I won't delete it, though.  Someone should notice this.  If not, then it proves that theory about the quantity over quality arguement against Wikipedia.  I hope someone removes it.
Originally, the Bill of Rights was not intended to apply to the states; for instance, some states in the early years of the nation officially established a religion. This interpretation of these Amendments remained until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, which stated, in part, that:
I'm so caught up got me feelin it caught i dont know what it is, but this girl she got me twisted im so caught up got me feelin it caught up im losin control this girls got a hold on me
EDIT: This must have been a problem with my browser.  Why did I see this.  Then, after viewing the page again, it was replaced with:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
:What happened was that somebody vandalized the page, and by the time you refreshed, someone else had caught it and gone back to the correct version. This is one of the beauties of a wiki--although content can be vandalized, it can also be fixed quickly and easily. Meelar (talk) 02:22, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
::What the heck... I'm scared now... watch out, ladies!  --Luigifan 20:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this has been noticed.  --Luigifan 20:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bill of Rights Joke? 

message: On top of going around and vandalizing pages, this bradymail.org guy has the gall of calling ME the vandal. I have placed a temporary lock on the page against anonymous users; if the guy wants to get into an edit war, let him register!  -- Dullfig 20:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Dullfig.. only admins can protect pages. This article is not protected from editing currently. And semi-protection is only intended to stop anonymous vandalism, it is never used to gain an advantage in a dispute over article content. Thanks. Rhobite 22:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Temporary lock

message: is this a joke?  there's an american flag behind the words "We the people" in the iconic jpg on the top right of the wiki.   who is the marketing flunkie who thought this would be a good idea?  there's obviously way too many stars, for a document put together in the 18th century, not to mention the design of the flag itself, which is an idiotic anachronism.  is this supposed to be an encyclopedia article, or is this supposed to be the COVER to a VHS video cassette of a silly documentary?  it's embarrassing.   not only is it totally fantastic-- pure fantasy--  but the projected implications about the modern day reality of the union, and the scope of the thought of the framers,...... is just, i don't even want to get into it.
this kind of nonsense needs to be cleaned up. 128.119.236.79 04:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: is this a joke? a flag background for "We The People"?

message: Isn't the physical document a piece of hemp paper? If this is in fact true then I would like to see it mentioned in the article here.
:No, it isn't.  The Constitution is written on parchment.  This is treated animal skin, typically sheepskin. Steve802
Actually the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, let alone a lot of clothing and paper from earlier generations prior to the 1930's was made of Hemp.  Hemp (English word) was a major product of the colonies in fact, whereas it was illegal not to grow it at one time.  During the 1930's a campaign was conducted by the Hearst Corporation to label Hemp as the 'devil weed' and they picked the Spanish word Marijuana(sic) to demonize this hearty and very versitle plant.  
Here are some facts:
[Copyright violation (possibly taken from http://www.world-mysteries.com/marijuana1.htm) deleted — Mateo SA (talk | contribs) 14:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hemp 

message: I edited the section on impeachment and added a comment to it a disputed section. A senator may have been expelled but not impeached.
That raises a question as to the accuracy of the claim that there were 16 impeachments (now 15). Guanaco
Re: RickK
According to Article 1, Section 5, it requires a two-thirds vote to "expel" a member of either house of Congress. That vote is taken within that house. Since expulsion and impeachment are two different things, I removed the reference to the impeachment of a senator. See . The number of impeached officials as shown in the edited paragraph is what is disputed. Since part of it has already been proven to be incorrect, it is risky to assume that the rest will be. Guanaco 05:11, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you have no specific objection to any specific section of that section, I am removing the header.  RickK | Talk 05:30, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Senator William Blount was impeached in 1798.  The Senate did not convict him because they had already expelled him, but he was impeached by the House.  See also .--Jwolfe 11:53, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on impeachment 

message: The recent edits (see page history between 27 and 29 Feb 2004) about the difficulty amending the US Constitution are mildly interesting but despite several rounds of editing (including my own best efforts) were not presented in a NPOV way.  The implied value judgement that it is "too hard" always came through.  If someone wants to discuss the amendment process in more detail, I would recommend moving it into a completely new article instead. Rossami 01:29, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll start that now. Meelar 01:39, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: I agree with taking that section out of the lead, but after consideration, I decided to add a rephrased note in the "Amending the Constitution" section.  See my changes for details.  Also, a semi-related note--is "The Constitution owes its staying power to its simplicity and flexibility" really NPOV? To say nothing of "its basic provisions were so soundly conceived that..." Meelar 01:47, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I thought about that some as well.  I came to the conclusion that those clauses just barely meet the NPOV rule because they are (to the best of my knowledge) universally held judgements among serious constitutional scholars. Rossami 13:24, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: I think it is referring to the process of constitutional amendment through constitutional convention. The constitution allows for two-thirds of the state to call for such a convention. Article 5 should have some more detail about the process. So far, it has never actually been used to amend the constitution. sebmol 23:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Amending the US Constitution

message: I think there actually is some controversy over this topic (beyond the borderline vandalism this article has been undergoing), so I rewrote the intro to more accurately reflect both sides.  Comments? Meelar 21:13, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How about "in the world" instead of "on earth"? older≠wiser 14:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: New Intro

message: Anyone have a big problem if I work these facts into the United States Constitution#Bill of Rights (1-10) section?
*the second amendment is in fact interpreted as being an individual right by the SCOTUS and the meaning of militia and the people are no longer an issue (I know, the sentence in the current article is about the controversy, whether those gnashing their ignorance about it understand current case-law or not); and maybe I can slide in the famous phrase "an individual right but not an absolute one" as regards the determination of who may be excluded and what weapons are protected...I don't want to repeat everything at the Gun Politics article (hell, I don't even want to look at the Gun Politics article because I know I'm going to be disgusted at both sides' ignorance of the SC's rulings...), I just think these things are at least as important to mention as the asides already included in the article.
*the least-contested of the first 10 amendments is the 3rd, having been tested only once, and only a few decades ago, in a case involving the displacement of prison guards from their government housing to quarter scabs during a strike.
...Maybe tomorrow if the Steelers game isn't too exciting...  Blair P. Houghton 00:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  more bill of rights detail 

message: Any info on this document and how it influenced the US Constitution? An explanation why it cannot be considered the first constitution would be nice. See Talk:Polish_Constitution_of_May_3%2C_1791#Corsican_constitution for info I googled so far. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:05, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Corsican constitution of 1755

message: NOTE: because these are heated subjects, i am attempting to follow wiki policy to the letter. i ask that all participating in any debate or edits do the same. if i've failed in that regard (new at this), please let me know here or on my talk page, and i'll attempt to fix quickly. SaltyPig 02:20, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
===History===
This government lacked, for example, any power to impose taxes as it had no method of enforcing payment. It could not even control commerce between the states, leading to a series of conflicting tax laws and tariffs between states. the word "even" indicates bias, implying certain minimum federal control of commerce on which all agree. the phrase "leading to" is not factual, and also shows bias. it could be changed to "allowing", but the entire sentence should be rewritten.
Not only this, but the Articles required unanimous consent from all the states before any changes could take effect. "Not only this" is the language of somebody with an agenda -- argumentative. it has no place here.
All this was criticized as far exceeding the convention's mandate, and being extralegal besides, but the paralysis of the Articles of Confederation government was evident and the Congress agreed to submit the proposal to the states despite the exceeded terms of reference. "but the paralysis of the Articles of Confederation government was evident"? to many it was not. the statement is biased, and simply a rewrite of history based on which side won (federalists). this and the statements mentioned above presume the correctness of the action that was taken. not objective, and not NPOV. far from offsetting, the following "after fierce fights over ratification in many of the states" is contradictory.
...the Constitution guarantees the legitimacy of the American state by invoking the American electorate. the constitution may attempt such a thing, but it hardly guarantees it. SaltyPig 23:36, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
====proposed changes====
This government lacked, for example, any power to impose taxes as it had no method of enforcing payment. It could not even control commerce between the states, leading to a series of conflicting tax laws and tariffs between states. Not only this, but the Articles required unanimous consent from all the states before any changes could take effect. States took it so lightly that their representatives were often absent, and the national legislature was very frequently blocked from doing anything, even ineffectual things, pending appearance of a quorum.
to
This government lacked, for example, any power to impose taxes, as it had no method of enforcing payment. It had no authority to override tax laws and tariffs between states. The Articles required unanimous consent from all the states before any changes could take effect. States took the central government so lightly that their representatives were often absent. For lack of a quorum, the national legislature was frequently blocked from making even ineffectual changes. SaltyPig 05:34, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
----
All this was criticized as far exceeding the convention's mandate, and being extralegal besides, but the paralysis of the Articles of Confederation government was evident and the Congress agreed to submit the proposal to the states despite the exceeded terms of reference.
to
These actions were criticized as exceeding the convention's mandate and existing law. However, Congress, noting dissatisfaction with the Articles of Confederation government, agreed to submit the proposal to the states despite the exceeded terms of reference. SaltyPig 05:34, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
===Principles of government===
if the word "rights" is to refer both to natural rights and to allowances under the constitution, delineation would be helpful and accurate. i am including this as an NPOV dispute because there are many who explicitly presume that the constitution grants rights to the people when it does not. it's POV. the assertion that State actors acting in the name of the people have the right to change their form of national government by means defined in the Fifth Article of the Constitution itself implies that rights (not allowances) flow from the constitution. that is contradicted by the constitution (e.g., amendments 1, 2, 4, 9). a seemingly minor point to some, but it wasn't minor to the framers. their language tended toward precision on the matter. SaltyPig 23:36, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
====proposed change====
State actors acting in the name of the people have the right to change their form of national government by means defined in the Fifth Article of the Constitution itself.
to
By means defined in the Fifth Article of the Constitution, Congress may propose amendments to the Constitution. Moreover, any two thirds of the states may themselves initiate a convention for proposing amendments. When ratified as specified, all amendments are considered part of the Constitution. SaltyPig 06:02, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
===Amendments===
This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document: it is written in broad terms that are continually reinterpreted by the courts. should be modified so that it doesn't imply that all reinterpretation by the courts is over "broad terms". there is explicit language in the constitution that has been "reinterpreted" to mean something other than what it clearly says. some may argue that the statement i just made is non-NPOV; however, it's no more non-NPOV than the blanket "broad terms" assertion. the statement needs balance, if not simply accuracy. SaltyPig 23:37, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
====proposed change====
This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document: it is written in broad terms that are continually reinterpreted by the courts.
to
This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document, as much of it is written in broad terms. The Constitution is continually reinterpreted by the courts, and there is often dispute over these rulings. Some argue that judges cross from mere interpretation to rewriting, thereby bypassing the prescribed amendment process (see Judicial activism). Others counter that broad judicial interpretation is essential for the Constitution to remain relevant to changing times.
:not happy with this proposed change myself, and i expect there will be opposition. perhaps it might help to say that i was almost gagging when i wrote it! anyway, please give suggestions for improvement that at least cut down somewhat on the POV of the current version. SaltyPig 03:37, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
::I don't think the subject of judicial activism really belongs in an analysis of the constitution. That's an article for another page. The flexibility of the document means that Congress has considerable latitude to legislate in light of new situations. (For example, using the interstate commerce clause to legislate telecommunications.)
::You might change the statement to something like: "This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document. The Constituion gives Congress considerable freedom to create laws which deal with new situations not forseen by the Constitution's authors, subject to judicial review e.g., using the interstate commerce clause to create legislation regulating telecommunications."
::Most situations where the courts review the constitutionality of laws are not controversial and "broad judicial interpretation" ignored the justices who advocate a very narrow reading of the Constitution. Any attempt to include "judicial activism" (a spurious charge at best considering both sides levy it against each other) results in an injection of bias. Better to just discuss the flexibility to create new legislation and leave it at that. Kbrooks 03:56, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
:::thanks for the comments. i believe you're arguing for your personal bias here though. many people (the principal author of the constitution among them) disagree that the constitution gives such "considerable freedom" as in your example of claiming that the commerce clause covers telecommunications. though i don't like my proposed change, it does cover two major opinions and doesn't claim either is correct. i don't have any problem not using the loaded term (or link) "judicial activism", but i also don't think it's true to state, as the article does now, that there's a blanket flexibility there. much of what the courts have ruled over the years violates the constitution directly (e.g., mccain-feingold, about which several supreme court justices said as much themselves), or at least takes it into territory which people such as james madison said explicitly is not flexible in the least. i don't agree with your claim that "Most situations where the courts review the constitutionality of laws are not controversial". do you have a suggestion which doesn't get into this territory in any way (rather than just one way)? the article as it stands on this subject is POV, showing only the "do what thou wilt" school of constitutional law -- a point of view. it is not wikipedia's concern what "both sides" do (not sure what that means); the article should discuss the constitution and how its followed or not. there seems to be a view in this country that whatever is allowed to be done must be constitutional. i hope that's not a view you want the article to hold. BTW, i am for removing this section if a balance can't be reached. SaltyPig 04:54, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
:: Actually, I'd say it's just better to leave the sentence out altogether. The issue--whether judicial interpretation affects the frequency of amendment--is only peripherally relevant to the issue of the Constitution's amendments, and is ultimately speculative. Wikipedia does not offer opinions--it only describes existing information. We should be skeptical of offering speculation like this. When we do provide it, it should be backed up with specific references, so readers know it is not just a contributor's opinion.
:: That being said, the issue of interpretation of the Constitution belongs elsewhere in the article. There should be an article describing the issue of "Strict Constructionism" vs. the "Living Constitution"; how the Constitution is interpreted very broadly in practice today, but how many criticize that practice.
:: I also think that the reference to "judicial activism" is POV. It puts too much emphasis on the judicial branch. In many cases—such as with the Second Amendment—the issue is whether the legislative or executive branches are going beyond the limits imposed by the Constitution. In cases like that, the critics are actually alleging "judicial passivism". Mateo SA | talk 05:09, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
:::i agree with most of that. barring objection, let's remove it from this part; anybody who wants to write a more complete analysis can. SaltyPig 05:32, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
:: I'd agree with removing the statement entirely. After reading the comments, I'd have to agree with Mateo that any mention of judical activism injects POV. Kbrooks 06:10 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
===The Bill of Rights (1–10)===
the section states fairly objectively that the supreme court has interpreted the 14th amendment "to extend some, but not all, parts of the Bill of Rights to the states." however, 2 paragraphs later, it states, "The ten amendments collectively known as the Bill of Rights remain as they were adopted two centuries ago." this is after the article asserts correctly, "Unlike most constitutions, amendments to the U.S. constitution are appended to the existing body of the text, rather than being revisions of or insertions into the main articles."
if there is no provision to revise the literal text of the constitution, then the statement that the first ten amendments "remain as they were adopted two centuries ago" is meaningless, and implies that the bill of rights has not been trammeled. considering that millions of US citizens disagree, especially lately, and considering that the article itself asserts explicitly that the 14th amendment and the supreme court changed the practical meaning of the bill of rights, the claim should be rewritten or stricken. it is not NPOV. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
it's often claimed, and the article does it as well, that the bill of rights wasn't "intended" to apply to the states. however, here is another internal contradiction of the article; it discusses guarantees for judicial matters which seem quite strongly to be mostly, if not entirely, state related. this is a contradiction practiced generally, but it shouldn't be ignored simply because most gloss over the problem; if the article is not going to address the contradiction, the previous claim that the bill of rights wasn't intended to apply to the states should be removed. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC) SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
:Huh?  The judicial matters could easily apply to Federal courts.  Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if the intent of the BOR to apply only to the Federal government were a matter of historical record.  In any case, I do know that that was the accepted judicial interpretation of their intent until the courts began applying them to the states after the 14th amendment.
::historical record of intent or not, the document contains no such general restrictions on applicability. the all-inclusive language of most of the BOR, combined with the supremacy clause, requires that all arguments on general inapplicability to the states go extra-constitutional. that's fine, but what the constitution itself says is at least as important for this article. SaltyPig 08:53, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
====proposed change====
Originally, the Bill of Rights was not intended to apply to the states; for instance, some states in the early years of the nation officially established a religion. This interpretation of these Amendments remained until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, which stated, in part, that:
to
It is commonly understood that the Bill of Rights was not originally intended to apply to the states, though except where amendments refer specifically to the Federal Government or a branch thereof (as in the first amendment, under which some states in the early years of the nation officially established a religion), there is no such delineation in the text itself. Nevertheless, a general interpretation of inapplicability to the states remained until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, which stated, in part, that: SaltyPig 08:53, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
====first amendment====
The first guarantees freedom of worship, speech, and press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right to petition the government to correct wrongs. It also prohibits Congress from passing "any law respecting an establishment of religion"—making this amendment a battlefield in the late-20th century culture wars. the first amendment does not guarantee anything except that congress shall make no law regarding those matters (even there the "guarantee" failed). further, the paragraph is self-contradictory when it states that the first amendment "also prohibits Congress from passing" anything. the prohibition on congress is on congress alone, and it applies to everything listed in the first amendment. if the article is to discuss here 20th century interpretation by the courts, it needs to be labeled correctly. as written, it is not factual, and is a point of view. what is wrong with simply stating exactly what the first amendment says, even if in abridged form? as written, this part of the article is interpretation. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
:Mateo SA, i like much of your 1st amend changes, but i think it has a small interpretation problem in a different way now. new version: "The first amendment addresses the rights of freedom of speech and the press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right of petition. It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting government establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion."
:it's good that you didn't try to cover everything. my only quibble is with the "prohibiting government establishment of religion" part. the amendment merely prohibits congress from making a law respecting it -- a point that's often ignored these days. seems a small tweak (one that avoids mentioning congress and government) could bring the entire thing into line with the actual text while also avoiding any potential POV claims for volatile territory. what do you think? SaltyPig 05:20, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
:: I've adjusted the relevant sentence to read as follows: "It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting thegovernment establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion." My intent in rewriting the paragraph was to provide a completely neutral description of the amendment—i.e., to describe the concepts it addresses, without adopting one particular POV regarding its interpretation and application. I prefer that it said something like "literally, the amendment prevents Congress from respecting the establishment, etc.; it has been applied and interpreted in the following ways: . . ." However, I'm not sure there is a way to describe all the issues surrounding the amendment in a way that's both neutral and succinct enough for this article. Perhaps we could try expanding the description a little more, while directing readers to see the main article on the First Amendment (though that article also needs work). Mateo SA | talk 04:36, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
:::i think it's fine. i like the idea of keeping it very simple while also, when possible, avoiding simply quoting the constitution. that's a difficult task though, as we've seen. it may be that this section would be better as a direct quote, but with wikilinks. as it stands, however, it's improved. still, it's hard to say the same thing as the constitution in a different way without making it longer. anyway, i look forward to your future changes. it would be nice for the article eventually to offer avenues for the more considerate disagreements over the constitution -- linking to geekier articles both at wikipedia and outside. the first amendment, for example, is so simple and clear, yet it's one of the most over-invoked and least understood pieces of law in history. maybe wikipedia can help reduce that strange disconnect. SaltyPig 05:27, 2005 May 30 (UTC)
====second amendment====
The second guarantees the right to keep and bear arms to a well-regulated militia (well-regulated meaning fit for a purpose and militia meaning the body of citizens likely to be of service in defense of the state). this is not correct. it's an interpretation, and should be marked as such. there are many problems with this section (including the use of the word "guarantees", and the offered definition of "well-regulated"), but using the militia clause to restate militias as the primary subject of the amendment is POV. the language of the amendment is clear, in that the right is explicitly coupled to the people ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms"). if this section is intending to state what some courts have held as the interpretation of the amendment, it must be clear what it's doing, otherwise it's POV and not factual.
here is an example rewrite which might bother some people, but which is accurate with regard to what the amendment says (not somebody's, or even my, interpretation): "The second amendment prohibits the infringement of the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and lists 'a well regulated Militia' as the reason."
uncomfortable? that's what it says! SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
:No, that is not what it says. The amendment says: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The amendment does not "list" the militia as the "reason" for the amendment; it simply places two statements side-by-side. Your proposed description interprets the amendment as much as the original description. Mateo SA | talk 01:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
::that's an absurd claim (for english speakers anyway), but you raise a great point: if the only thing that people can agree on is the literal text, put that as the only attempt to say what it says. it's short enough. i'm all for it. SaltyPig 03:23, 2005 May 13 (UTC)
::: If it's an absurd claim, why do you feel the need to provide your own redefinition of the amendment? The English language is inherently imprecise (though maybe the "english" language is not). If a sentence (like the second amendment) has only one possible meaning, then no other sentence can stand in its place. Your interpretation of the amendment as listing a reason relies on assumptions about the context of the amendment and the intention of its authors. You assume that the drafters of the amendment intended the first part simply as an offhand remark on the purpose of the amendment, and that that part can consequently be ignored. If that is so, then the drafters were not very precise or careful in writing the second amendment—which would contradict your own assertion that the amendment is unambiguous. My problem is that you insist that the amendment has only one possible meaning: the one you prefer. Mateo SA | talk 05:16, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
::::i don't see how you get pretty much any of what you say — about the amendment, about what i wrote above, or your claim that there's only one precise construction under which a sentence may keep its meaning. i do love to argue about things like that (off the article talk pages), but not with people who imply that it's relevant or meaningful that i don't cap "english". relevant here is that i obviously don't "feel the need" to provide my interpretation of the amendment, as my edit to the article shows quite well. do you have a problem with that section now (in the article, not here)? my only problem with it is pre-existing material i kept in the interest of making as few changes as possible. i'll leave it, assuming no objection. remember, the issue here is the article, not our opinions on the second amendment, which will probably always disagree. i'm done editing the second amendment part if it's okay. please comment here, or make desired changes to the article directly. i take it from your assertions that we at least agree that the prior interpretation should not stand as it was (unmarked). thanks. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 May 15 (UTC)
:: Further discussion on the Second Amendment's grammatical structure might use this analysis produced last year by the Department of Justice. Any analysis of the amendment should include arguments from the individualist, collective and quasi-collective schools of thought. Kbrooks 06:19 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
:::Kbrooks, i think we solved this, though the argument's still there. have you seen the current version? probably the only solution is to quote the second amendment verbatim and get out as quickly as possible. the arguments over syntax have no end. if you have changes though, make 'em and we can bat it around. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
:::: Thanks, Salty. Looks fine to me. Just didn't know if this was an ongoing topic, or not. Kbrooks 06:51 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
::::: I split the actual amendment text from the opening phrase to parallel the rest of the amendments in the bill of rights.  I think the amendment deserves coequal treatment, though it often doesn't get such treatment.  Personally, I don't really see a need to rehash the definition of any of the amendments, since most of them are worded pretty clearly (more clearly than this one); I'd rather see supporting text that discusses how the amendment has been interpreted by the various branches of the government, particularly the supreme court.  I don't honestly know of the second amendment being used in any supreme court cases, though.  Warren Dew 14:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[NPOV]] disputed

message: the section states fairly objectively that the supreme court has interpreted the 14th amendment "to extend some, but not all, parts of the Bill of Rights to the states." however, 2 paragraphs later, it states, "The ten amendments collectively known as the Bill of Rights remain as they were adopted two centuries ago." this is after the article asserts correctly, "Unlike most constitutions, amendments to the U.S. constitution are appended to the existing body of the text, rather than being revisions of or insertions into the main articles."
if there is no provision to revise the literal text of the constitution, then the statement that the first ten amendments "remain as they were adopted two centuries ago" is meaningless, and implies that the bill of rights has not been trammeled. considering that millions of US citizens disagree, especially lately, and considering that the article itself asserts explicitly that the 14th amendment and the supreme court changed the practical meaning of the bill of rights, the claim should be rewritten or stricken. it is not NPOV. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
it's often claimed, and the article does it as well, that the bill of rights wasn't "intended" to apply to the states. however, here is another internal contradiction of the article; it discusses guarantees for judicial matters which seem quite strongly to be mostly, if not entirely, state related. this is a contradiction practiced generally, but it shouldn't be ignored simply because most gloss over the problem; if the article is not going to address the contradiction, the previous claim that the bill of rights wasn't intended to apply to the states should be removed. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC) SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
:Huh?  The judicial matters could easily apply to Federal courts.  Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if the intent of the BOR to apply only to the Federal government were a matter of historical record.  In any case, I do know that that was the accepted judicial interpretation of their intent until the courts began applying them to the states after the 14th amendment.
::historical record of intent or not, the document contains no such general restrictions on applicability. the all-inclusive language of most of the BOR, combined with the supremacy clause, requires that all arguments on general inapplicability to the states go extra-constitutional. that's fine, but what the constitution itself says is at least as important for this article. SaltyPig 08:53, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
====proposed change====
Originally, the Bill of Rights was not intended to apply to the states; for instance, some states in the early years of the nation officially established a religion. This interpretation of these Amendments remained until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, which stated, in part, that:
to
It is commonly understood that the Bill of Rights was not originally intended to apply to the states, though except where amendments refer specifically to the Federal Government or a branch thereof (as in the first amendment, under which some states in the early years of the nation officially established a religion), there is no such delineation in the text itself. Nevertheless, a general interpretation of inapplicability to the states remained until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, which stated, in part, that: SaltyPig 08:53, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
====first amendment====
The first guarantees freedom of worship, speech, and press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right to petition the government to correct wrongs. It also prohibits Congress from passing "any law respecting an establishment of religion"—making this amendment a battlefield in the late-20th century culture wars. the first amendment does not guarantee anything except that congress shall make no law regarding those matters (even there the "guarantee" failed). further, the paragraph is self-contradictory when it states that the first amendment "also prohibits Congress from passing" anything. the prohibition on congress is on congress alone, and it applies to everything listed in the first amendment. if the article is to discuss here 20th century interpretation by the courts, it needs to be labeled correctly. as written, it is not factual, and is a point of view. what is wrong with simply stating exactly what the first amendment says, even if in abridged form? as written, this part of the article is interpretation. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
:Mateo SA, i like much of your 1st amend changes, but i think it has a small interpretation problem in a different way now. new version: "The first amendment addresses the rights of freedom of speech and the press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right of petition. It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting government establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion."
:it's good that you didn't try to cover everything. my only quibble is with the "prohibiting government establishment of religion" part. the amendment merely prohibits congress from making a law respecting it -- a point that's often ignored these days. seems a small tweak (one that avoids mentioning congress and government) could bring the entire thing into line with the actual text while also avoiding any potential POV claims for volatile territory. what do you think? SaltyPig 05:20, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
:: I've adjusted the relevant sentence to read as follows: "It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting thegovernment establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion." My intent in rewriting the paragraph was to provide a completely neutral description of the amendment—i.e., to describe the concepts it addresses, without adopting one particular POV regarding its interpretation and application. I prefer that it said something like "literally, the amendment prevents Congress from respecting the establishment, etc.; it has been applied and interpreted in the following ways: . . ." However, I'm not sure there is a way to describe all the issues surrounding the amendment in a way that's both neutral and succinct enough for this article. Perhaps we could try expanding the description a little more, while directing readers to see the main article on the First Amendment (though that article also needs work). Mateo SA | talk 04:36, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
:::i think it's fine. i like the idea of keeping it very simple while also, when possible, avoiding simply quoting the constitution. that's a difficult task though, as we've seen. it may be that this section would be better as a direct quote, but with wikilinks. as it stands, however, it's improved. still, it's hard to say the same thing as the constitution in a different way without making it longer. anyway, i look forward to your future changes. it would be nice for the article eventually to offer avenues for the more considerate disagreements over the constitution -- linking to geekier articles both at wikipedia and outside. the first amendment, for example, is so simple and clear, yet it's one of the most over-invoked and least understood pieces of law in history. maybe wikipedia can help reduce that strange disconnect. SaltyPig 05:27, 2005 May 30 (UTC)
====second amendment====
The second guarantees the right to keep and bear arms to a well-regulated militia (well-regulated meaning fit for a purpose and militia meaning the body of citizens likely to be of service in defense of the state). this is not correct. it's an interpretation, and should be marked as such. there are many problems with this section (including the use of the word "guarantees", and the offered definition of "well-regulated"), but using the militia clause to restate militias as the primary subject of the amendment is POV. the language of the amendment is clear, in that the right is explicitly coupled to the people ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms"). if this section is intending to state what some courts have held as the interpretation of the amendment, it must be clear what it's doing, otherwise it's POV and not factual.
here is an example rewrite which might bother some people, but which is accurate with regard to what the amendment says (not somebody's, or even my, interpretation): "The second amendment prohibits the infringement of the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and lists 'a well regulated Militia' as the reason."
uncomfortable? that's what it says! SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
:No, that is not what it says. The amendment says: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The amendment does not "list" the militia as the "reason" for the amendment; it simply places two statements side-by-side. Your proposed description interprets the amendment as much as the original description. Mateo SA | talk 01:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
::that's an absurd claim (for english speakers anyway), but you raise a great point: if the only thing that people can agree on is the literal text, put that as the only attempt to say what it says. it's short enough. i'm all for it. SaltyPig 03:23, 2005 May 13 (UTC)
::: If it's an absurd claim, why do you feel the need to provide your own redefinition of the amendment? The English language is inherently imprecise (though maybe the "english" language is not). If a sentence (like the second amendment) has only one possible meaning, then no other sentence can stand in its place. Your interpretation of the amendment as listing a reason relies on assumptions about the context of the amendment and the intention of its authors. You assume that the drafters of the amendment intended the first part simply as an offhand remark on the purpose of the amendment, and that that part can consequently be ignored. If that is so, then the drafters were not very precise or careful in writing the second amendment—which would contradict your own assertion that the amendment is unambiguous. My problem is that you insist that the amendment has only one possible meaning: the one you prefer. Mateo SA | talk 05:16, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
::::i don't see how you get pretty much any of what you say — about the amendment, about what i wrote above, or your claim that there's only one precise construction under which a sentence may keep its meaning. i do love to argue about things like that (off the article talk pages), but not with people who imply that it's relevant or meaningful that i don't cap "english". relevant here is that i obviously don't "feel the need" to provide my interpretation of the amendment, as my edit to the article shows quite well. do you have a problem with that section now (in the article, not here)? my only problem with it is pre-existing material i kept in the interest of making as few changes as possible. i'll leave it, assuming no objection. remember, the issue here is the article, not our opinions on the second amendment, which will probably always disagree. i'm done editing the second amendment part if it's okay. please comment here, or make desired changes to the article directly. i take it from your assertions that we at least agree that the prior interpretation should not stand as it was (unmarked). thanks. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 May 15 (UTC)
:: Further discussion on the Second Amendment's grammatical structure might use this analysis produced last year by the Department of Justice. Any analysis of the amendment should include arguments from the individualist, collective and quasi-collective schools of thought. Kbrooks 06:19 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
:::Kbrooks, i think we solved this, though the argument's still there. have you seen the current version? probably the only solution is to quote the second amendment verbatim and get out as quickly as possible. the arguments over syntax have no end. if you have changes though, make 'em and we can bat it around. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
:::: Thanks, Salty. Looks fine to me. Just didn't know if this was an ongoing topic, or not. Kbrooks 06:51 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
::::: I split the actual amendment text from the opening phrase to parallel the rest of the amendments in the bill of rights.  I think the amendment deserves coequal treatment, though it often doesn't get such treatment.  Personally, I don't really see a need to rehash the definition of any of the amendments, since most of them are worded pretty clearly (more clearly than this one); I'd rather see supporting text that discusses how the amendment has been interpreted by the various branches of the government, particularly the supreme court.  I don't honestly know of the second amendment being used in any supreme court cases, though.  Warren Dew 14:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Bill of Rights (1–10)

message: The second guarantees the right to keep and bear arms to a well-regulated militia (well-regulated meaning fit for a purpose and militia meaning the body of citizens likely to be of service in defense of the state). this is not correct. it's an interpretation, and should be marked as such. there are many problems with this section (including the use of the word "guarantees", and the offered definition of "well-regulated"), but using the militia clause to restate militias as the primary subject of the amendment is POV. the language of the amendment is clear, in that the right is explicitly coupled to the people ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms"). if this section is intending to state what some courts have held as the interpretation of the amendment, it must be clear what it's doing, otherwise it's POV and not factual.
here is an example rewrite which might bother some people, but which is accurate with regard to what the amendment says (not somebody's, or even my, interpretation): "The second amendment prohibits the infringement of the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and lists 'a well regulated Militia' as the reason."
uncomfortable? that's what it says! SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
:No, that is not what it says. The amendment says: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The amendment does not "list" the militia as the "reason" for the amendment; it simply places two statements side-by-side. Your proposed description interprets the amendment as much as the original description. Mateo SA | talk 01:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
::that's an absurd claim (for english speakers anyway), but you raise a great point: if the only thing that people can agree on is the literal text, put that as the only attempt to say what it says. it's short enough. i'm all for it. SaltyPig 03:23, 2005 May 13 (UTC)
::: If it's an absurd claim, why do you feel the need to provide your own redefinition of the amendment? The English language is inherently imprecise (though maybe the "english" language is not). If a sentence (like the second amendment) has only one possible meaning, then no other sentence can stand in its place. Your interpretation of the amendment as listing a reason relies on assumptions about the context of the amendment and the intention of its authors. You assume that the drafters of the amendment intended the first part simply as an offhand remark on the purpose of the amendment, and that that part can consequently be ignored. If that is so, then the drafters were not very precise or careful in writing the second amendment—which would contradict your own assertion that the amendment is unambiguous. My problem is that you insist that the amendment has only one possible meaning: the one you prefer. Mateo SA | talk 05:16, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
::::i don't see how you get pretty much any of what you say — about the amendment, about what i wrote above, or your claim that there's only one precise construction under which a sentence may keep its meaning. i do love to argue about things like that (off the article talk pages), but not with people who imply that it's relevant or meaningful that i don't cap "english". relevant here is that i obviously don't "feel the need" to provide my interpretation of the amendment, as my edit to the article shows quite well. do you have a problem with that section now (in the article, not here)? my only problem with it is pre-existing material i kept in the interest of making as few changes as possible. i'll leave it, assuming no objection. remember, the issue here is the article, not our opinions on the second amendment, which will probably always disagree. i'm done editing the second amendment part if it's okay. please comment here, or make desired changes to the article directly. i take it from your assertions that we at least agree that the prior interpretation should not stand as it was (unmarked). thanks. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 May 15 (UTC)
:: Further discussion on the Second Amendment's grammatical structure might use this analysis produced last year by the Department of Justice. Any analysis of the amendment should include arguments from the individualist, collective and quasi-collective schools of thought. Kbrooks 06:19 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
:::Kbrooks, i think we solved this, though the argument's still there. have you seen the current version? probably the only solution is to quote the second amendment verbatim and get out as quickly as possible. the arguments over syntax have no end. if you have changes though, make 'em and we can bat it around. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
:::: Thanks, Salty. Looks fine to me. Just didn't know if this was an ongoing topic, or not. Kbrooks 06:51 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
::::: I split the actual amendment text from the opening phrase to parallel the rest of the amendments in the bill of rights.  I think the amendment deserves coequal treatment, though it often doesn't get such treatment.  Personally, I don't really see a need to rehash the definition of any of the amendments, since most of them are worded pretty clearly (more clearly than this one); I'd rather see supporting text that discusses how the amendment has been interpreted by the various branches of the government, particularly the supreme court.  I don't honestly know of the second amendment being used in any supreme court cases, though.  Warren Dew 14:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: second amendment

message: ====Sixteenth Amendment (1913)====
"Authorizes the income tax." should be changed to "Authorizes taxes on incomes." "the income tax" unnecessarily implies that phrase as we recognize it today, and also has the faint odor of a sequential conflict (cart before horse). using the language of the amendment is simple and precise, allowing for disputes without getting into it. a fine point, admitted, but there's nothing lost in making the change. SaltyPig 23:39, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
====Twenty-sixth Amendment (1971)====
the text: "Establishes right of eighteen-year-olds to vote." the description for the nineteenth amendment is: "Ensures right of women to vote." the relevant language of the two amendments is identical, and presumes a pre-existing right. should be changed to "Ensures right of eighteen-year-olds to vote." (or similar, with the 19th and 26th in agreement) SaltyPig 23:39, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and make some clarifications to the descriptions in this section (inlcuding SaltyPig's suggestions above), which I hope are not too controversial (the 21st amendment situation in particular is a bit tricky because of the recent Supreme Court opinion that limits import restrictions). Ddye 00:15, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsequent amendments (11–27)

message: the text: "Establishes right of eighteen-year-olds to vote." the description for the nineteenth amendment is: "Ensures right of women to vote." the relevant language of the two amendments is identical, and presumes a pre-existing right. should be changed to "Ensures right of eighteen-year-olds to vote." (or similar, with the 19th and 26th in agreement) SaltyPig 23:39, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and make some clarifications to the descriptions in this section (inlcuding SaltyPig's suggestions above), which I hope are not too controversial (the 21st amendment situation in particular is a bit tricky because of the recent Supreme Court opinion that limits import restrictions). Ddye 00:15, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Twenty-sixth Amendment (1971)

message: The US constitution is not the oldest written national constitution still in force. That goes to San Marino --Dlatimer 07:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not the oldest constitution 

message: I apologize if my comment is useless -- I am not
a native english speaker so I may be wrong.
Under "Ratification", at the following table,
votes are categorized as "Yay" and "Nay". I suppose
that this is american slang, but it seems like
a case of vandalism to me.
Galanom 23:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: good eye. it's been corrected. the "Yay" should have been "Yea". "Nay" is correct. not so much slang as it is old-style for audible voting. sounds fancy or whatever, so they keep it. Wbfl 01:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table alternation 

message: Why does Mr. Barry Krusch get two links to his writings?  Both have very similar viewpoints, and it rather clutters up the links section (as well as implies that 2/5ths of advocacy groups possess similar thought to Mr. Krusch's, which seems to me to border on POV).  Rather, ought we just link to one, or perhaps a homepage of his?
:if you want to remove one, i suggest you make it the 21st century constitution, which is far less accessible than the first amendment material.
::it seems to me like these links should be removed altogether and replaced with a link to the more respectable "Constitution in the 21st Century" - http://www.acslaw.org/c21 Chris Straw 20:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "removed altogether"? "more respectable"? please direct me to the part of acslaw.org which you allege covers the same material as krusch's excellent analysis of the first amendment. why would you even mention one as a replacement for the other? makes no sense. krusch's site is unique and important. 65.143.91.51 10:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: i object to the wikification of direct quotes from the constitution (as in recent edits to preamble). it implies that the links are in line with the words. as is obvious from the history of this and similar pages, agreement on these words is scarce. direct quotes should be left unaltered. please comment here. Wbfl 01:27, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to see a real sick perversion of the actual words of a document, look at this one: Principles of the U.S. Declaration of Independence.  Click on the link to "unalienable rights," in the Declaration, and it takes you to an uncited primary source that says "'We hold these truths to be self-evident' has been accused of being simply a more elegant version of 'Because we said so,'" and goes on to call the principles of the Declaration "a non sequitur and an example of the naturalistic fallacy."  It doesn't cite any source for this.  The author just made it up, but JW1805 defends it with his life.  --Zephram Stark 02:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: wow, this wikification stuff is out of control. horrid. i oppose it strongly. but on the other hand, i don't take wikipedia seriously for controversial issues, mostly because of this type of inane hooliganism. the hooligans will always win in an open edit. still, if somebody doesn't kill these wikifications, i'm going to. just because they suck. Wbfl 03:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Links are good, and one of the main advantages to an internet encyclopedia over a paper one.  When in doubt, add links, I say.  They don't hurt anybody.  (Although, this is a bit much). --JW1805 18:12, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I think the quotes should be free of links. After all, quotes are meant to be left to interpretation by the reader, since people don't always agree upon what the Founding Fathers intended. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 22:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  wikified quotes 

message: I thought the seals looked nice, and added a little color to what was a long section of text.  --JW1805 03:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally agree.  They look very nice and make the article very readable, especially how the seals are centered vertically on each summary.  --Zephram Stark 03:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: yeah, i'm not sure how the seals are "irrelevant", as claimed in the edit summary for the removal. i don't like them, nor what they represent, but they're a great visual mark for helping constitution newbies understand the structure of the first 3 articles quickly and easily. biggest problem i had with them is that article 3 is about the federal judiciary, not just the supreme court. Wbfl 03:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I think they might look more apropos if they were the original seals. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 22:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seals 

message: In my browser, the first two pages of the Constitution obscure the Contents menu.  It appears this is because the two pages are not below the "Founding Documents of the United States" menu.  Can they be moved lower so they do not obstruct each other? - Runnerupnj 21:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Layout issue 

message: I edited a typo I found there. 
It said : procedures for the selection of the president, qualifications for office, the oath to be affirmed, the powers and duties of the office and procedures for selection
I changed it to : "procedures for the selection of the president, qualifications for office, the oath to be affirmed and the powers and duties of the office."
The typo was the double statement concerning "procedures for selection"
Deletion 02:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article two