Talk:Isle of Man TT

message: Because I was looking for this information all over wikipedia, and the web, and couldn't find it anywhere. Some people (me included) are interested in how the fastest lap times / speeds have progressed over the years, and this table provides the information. Please help fill out details of bikes, precise lap times. Thanks! DMSchneider (talk) 13:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to work on this soon. I believe the format used on the North West 200's page would be best suited for this, given that the categories and number of races are different each year. SunflowerYuri (talk) 08:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added sortable table for fastest race lap by year 

message: Not only fastest laps, but why isn't there a list of winning riders/bikes, one for each year? Ideally for every category, but if not, then surely for the senior race. Aside from the World Championship section, some of the results are not even on Wikipedia. It needs to be like Monaco Grand Prix ("By year") or List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.145.187.21 (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to work on this soon. I believe the format used on the North West 200's page would be best suited for this, given that the categories and number of races are different each year. SunflowerYuri (talk) 08:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Table of winners?

message: The 2015 IOM TT event and race guide suggests that speed limits are in place over the Snaefell Mountain Road.  "With the circuit being on ... The mountain section from Ramsey to Douglas is one way but speed limits are in place."
I asked: Does anyone know what is the nature of the speed limits in place?  
:(Later) Okay I find: 
:*Within www.isle-of-man.org.im there's a document titled "TT Road Races Traffic Management Provisions 2014" (PDF findable by google search): 2014 notices with speed limits from 60mph down to 40mph for various road sections.  
:*this 2015 notice of road closures titled "TT Road Races 2015 ROADS CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC" without speed limits mentioned...assume 2015 is similar
:*What speed is allowed there?  where restricted, 40-60mph for 2014 but only certain sections
:*Do the limits apply just during racing season?  Yes, for 2014, only during 23 May 2014 until 9 June 2014.
:*They must not apply during racing and practices;  do they apply during the rest of those days and on non-race days, i.e. are visitors being disappointed?    It appears the limits do apply during rest of those days and non-race days.  Perhaps there is no problem because the limits apply only to certain sections of the course?
:*I find no news reports of speed limits first being imposed in google searching; while there are plenty of 2014 hits advising potential visitors that there are none.
--doncram 22:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: --doncram 22:48, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: speed limits

message: Specific sourcing is needed for all statistics in the article, in my opinion and per general Wikipedia rules.  Personal observation is not a valid source for Wikipedia;  we are supposed to follow what is reported elsewhere.  I just updated the "Lap Records" section as an example of how I believe sourcing for a statistics table needs to be done.  This article's information on lap records is current (thanks to many separate editors adding info), by the way, and is reporting better information than the IOM TT website page, which does not yet incorporate any 2015 results.  What I did was add a "Sources" column, footnote the title of the column with a general sourcing statement (that all data in the table is from the IOMTT.COM webpage on lap records, except where otherwise noted).  For each row not sourced from that (i.e. all the 2015 results), a separate footnote is needed and can be placed in the column.  I provided a specific footnote for the 2015 lap record set by John McGuiness for the Senior TT and overall.  Footnotes supporting the lap records in Lightweight TT, TT Zero, and Sidecar TT are needed, as indicated by "citation needed" tags for those rows.  Could other editors please provide sources for those?  And/or help in adding specific sourcing elsewhere in this article? --doncram 19:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  sourcing help needed, especially for 2015 results 

message: In Wikipedia, sourcing is required.  This article is not the personal fiefdom of any local expert who writes what he wants to without detailed referencing to reliable sources.  I'm sorry, editor , if you got the impression otherwise, but I am reverting your recent edits.  Whether or not the information you added about 2015 results is accurate, what's more important here is changing the "culture" of this editing area.  To editor , thank you for your recent sourced contributions to the lede, stating accurately the most salient true information about the nature of Isle of Man TT racing:  indeed it is most saliently known as "the most dangerous motorcycle road-race in the world."  It just is.  And that view cannot be suppressed any longer--as it was in 2014 when I understand you made the same changes--by the dominance of one editor with a narrow POV over this and related articles.  No more "personal knowledge". To Plumstix and anyone else, I am sorry if you may perceive a superficial similarity between the previous main editor's perspective here, and my being assertive in this way now.  There are some important differences, having to do with degree of respect for Wikipedia's core principles and its community and practices.  Comments welcome.  Also help sourcing content in the article, or removing it if it cannot be sourced, would be appreciated. --doncram 06:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: sourcing is required, and yes it is the most dangerous

message: Shouldn't the article explain what entity or entities run and report on the TT races?  Who owns the name of the race, and other marketing-related assets?  Who incurs the financial costs and receives television-related revenues?  There seems to be no clear statement yet in the article;  I think there should be, probably in the "Description" section.  From the IOMTT.COM website, I find at bottom of "Contact" page the following mentions:
*Isle of Man Department of Economic Development, IOM TT Team, 1st Floor, St George's Court, Upper Church Street, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1EX
*iomtt.com is operated on behalf of the IOM Government Department of Economic Development by Duke Marketing Ltd. (email: admin@dukevideo.com)
That makes clear who is running the IOM website:  Duke Marketing Ltd.  Is the race owned by the government of the IOM, and administered by government agencies, or is the overall management let out by contract?  How this is done may be known already by some editors and by some readers, and should not be the focus of this general article, but some such information should be provided, right?  Comments welcome. --doncram 19:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The answers are unclear and may remain so; as with many thing in life, this might involve massive research to achieve a small, accurate overview - the 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. IoM is a clandestine, autonomous tax haven (regarded as offshore). A bit off-topic, but I have been adding to Geoff Duke, who had/owned a thriving VHS-based sport retailing venture, Duke Video. Prior to that there was Sound Stories, a business owned by Stanley Schofield, using vinyl medium. Seeing Geoff Duke's son on TV recently re-inforced that we don't know how these businesses developed, and what part the son or other family members play in the storyline. I'm sure there will be those who do know, at least in part, but would be reported? I'll add it to my list of research items to be conscious of.As I stated somewhere back in November (?) 2014 during the concerted TT Course Articles for Deletion sequence, the IoM government in conjunction with the TV company/companies have (presumably) invested up-front money as part of a strategic business plan, with fixed-cameras, on-bike cameras and helicopters providing coverage, together with behind-the-scenes reporting and interviews, and as always, almost propganda-levels of promotion (not that I am against this as I am pro-Manx). Resultingly, the TT televsion commentators - one being a Manx-resident, former racer Steve Parrish - will, and do, mention any historic vantage point or landmark, hence the AfD sequence was particularly ill-advised and in Bad Faith, in that there is a consecutive, geographical sequence of historic, named areas; as I stated at the time, the deletion sequence citing notability as a catch-all was mis-applied, challenging WP:AGF in that articles for the consecutive landmarks around a 37-mile course had been established in Good Faith, and could not be randomly deleted, leaving Wikipedia with an incomplete sequence. This, in part, has now been addressed by the work-in-progress List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course; one unsupportive editor has caused massive disruption and down-time, requiring rectification in another way. Completely counter-productive, as any arguably-minor landmarks could have been merged, for example titled as High Street and High Road, Anyplace, Isle of Man. Exactly which organisations financially benefit, and by how much and exactly when, given the assumed start-up costs, I imagine would be secret and sensitive business information and as such withheld. As part of long-term investigations into the corruption of a few related-articles involving History being re-written by Wikipedia, I made a Freedom of Information request for professional fees paid by the BBC TV Corporation, an arm of the UK Government, to those appearing on-camera giving anecdotal accounts in a pseudo-authorative manner, without any historical hard-copy corroboration. This was refused on an exemption to the UK FoI Act, as I expected it would be; I just needed it formalising for posterity and completeness of research (currently over two years on those topics). I surmise the IoM would be the same or worse where 'ownership' of once-traditional rights are concerned, involving PPFI (Public/Private Finance Initiatives), where governments privatise - through big business involving modern marketing and media - certain aspects of their 'normal' core financial activites.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 13:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  who owns, runs, and officially reports on IoM TT racing 

message: This epitomises what happen when there are too many Indians and not enough chiefs. There are too many sections, it's almost a section a paragraph, a lot of what is said is repeated again and again, there is no logical order to the article (eg there is a section on TT history at the end of the article after the results!!?), and it's got no sense of style.
The intro is rubbish. First it says it was once a great race then it says its a dangerous race. Is that the best summation for more than a hundred years of racing? 
I also notice as a violation of WP:NOTGUIDE, someone has added visitor info for this year's event. Why not add a few details about hotels or campsite while you're at it?
In conclusion this article needs to be rewritten by someone who knows the subject and has a clear sense of editorial judgement. I'm no editor but I gave up because it's just unreadable. Which is a pity because the TT is a fascinating subject. How many other readers are turned off by this page's overall crapiness? :-(  81.129.95.249 (talk) 17:18, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is a work of crap 

message: In this edit i just removed overly promotional and bureaucratic content from the lede paragraph.  In addition I corrected the wording to avoid false claim that the race has been run annually since 1907, which is contradicted by the article further below.  Some of the bureaucratic stuff could possibly be relevant to the article, and could be restored somewhere, but not in the lede.  Also there is a citation supposedly supporting an assertion that this is the most prestigious event of all kinds in the universe, ever.  Perhaps the source does say something worth quoting, in a quote, but we don't allow over-statements to be made in Wikipedia's voice.  Some puffery is allowed and is even appropriate in the lede, in my view, but what was there was not appropriate. --doncram 14:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  promotional and bureaucratic content in lede 

message: I have removed a reference added by seemingly an American   in this change, 18 April 2017.
The source (Auto Overload - now at Facebook) is deadlinked, can be seen here at Wayback. Note the amateur, improper use of capitalisation throughout the headlines shown.
A possible earlier source is at this Italian forum, but I'm not prepared to waste any more time on it.
This corner depicted is no point on the TT course and from the advertising (Fairyhouse) may be a location in Ireland. The caption does not state during TT races, and there is no way to conclude it is even a TT rider who was run-over at another circuit
This should never have been added and is basically irresponsible, not to mention raw URL/ un-formatted.
These sources breach WP:RS, and WP:SYNTH in adding it to the TT race article. Flagged up by Agljones, just this one alone took me 30 minutes (OK, casually, having breakfast (brunch) and watching MotoGP free practice).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 12:49, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Orangecones (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know I stated I would not waste further time - but it's actually been instructional and helpful for me - it wasn't that difficult to deduce after a mental process of elimination. The location is Finnegan's Corner on the Skerries 100 race course (in Eire, now called Ireland). This youtube video shows the race action and the position of the stills-photograpers.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 03:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bogus reference removed 

message: I've just transferred most of the lede to the main article, but for some reason, there isn't a contents box. Perhaps someone could correct this. Thanks. Valetude (talk) 23:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortened lede 24/9/19 

message: None of the articles on any of the "Tourist Trophies" explains the name.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:974B:4259:996A:894E:B553:598B (talk) 18:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What aspect of the name are you querying? I would guess "Tourist". Racing on public roads in United Kingdom was prohibited (still is, with certain exceptions which I don't understand - see Oliver's Mount). The Isle of Man is autonomous (self-governing) being outside of the UK and UK laws. It is not part of Great Britain, but is situated within the British Isles. IoM was approached to run the races on their roads in the early 1900s. There are/were several layouts of road racing courses - see Clypse Course and Billown Circuit for examples. The majority of competitors were visitors from outside Isle of Man - hence were tourists, not natives of the island. Hope this helps. --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:54, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The original Tourist Trophy was a race for touring cars, held on the Isle of Man in 1905.  The motorcycle version started two years later and presumably borrowed the name. Racing on public roads in mainland GB was permitted, but required a special Act of Parliament – which they got for the Birmingham Superprix F3000 street race – though AIUI the rules were relaxed somewhat in 2017. Mr Larrington (talk) 02:24, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There was motorcycle racing on the seafront near Liverpool, 1970s(?) exact name of locality escapes me (senior moment ).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

text: Remembered - New Brighton.Road race on Prom Wirral Globe, 24 June 1999--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 17:18, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where does the name "Tourist Trophy" come from? 

message: I saw in Revision history that an inexperienced editor, , is responsible for a lot of red deletions recently, such as: ...this paragraph was outdated so I fixed it, I had to remove a bunch of sources that were way too outdated to be relevant.
Major deletions need to be discussed first - this is normal Wikiquette.
I have posted at the editor's Talk page, but needs to be annotated here. Credit is due for the edit summaries. I don't have time available to fix such deletions, or even to read through them. 82.13.47.210 (talk) 01:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of content and sources 

message: When editing a few minutes ago, I tried to add a clickable link to Wikimedia Commons in the edit summary which didn't work, targeting an En-Wiki page. 
Interested parties can see the deleted text and edit summary comments in this simple link. 82.13.47.210 (talk) 18:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed edit summary internal link