Talk:Pavel Shatev

message: The introduction for this article is a bit confusing. Do we no need to write if Pavel Shatev is Bulgarian and Macedonian in a same time? Why not just write:
Pavel Potsev Shatev (Bulgarian and Macedonian: Павел Поцев Шатев), (1882 - 1951), was a lawyer, anarchist and a member of the left wing of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization (IMARO), later becoming an left-wing political activist.[1][2][3][4]
How does this sound to the neutral or Bulgarian editors?
Toci (talk) 21:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As an arguably neutral editor, I'm fine with your proposal. --Local hero talk 22:16, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the problem? He identified himself as a Bulgarian during his life. There are 3 primary sources (books) written by Shatev himself in differet periods, where he described himself and his compatriot as Bulgarians in ethnic sense. There is also a secondary source: an interview with the Macedonian Academician Katardzhiev. According to him such Macedonian activists as Shatev, who came from IMRO (United) and the Bulgarian Communist Party never managed to get rid of their pro-Bulgarian sentiments and on many issues opposed the Serbian-educated Yugoslav leaders, who held most of the political power. Pavel Shatev went as far as to send a petition to the Bulgarian legation in Belgrade protesting the anti-Bulgarian policies of the Yugoslav leadership, the serbianization of the Macedonian language and the change of the original ethnic identity of the killed during the Ilinden uprising IMRO heroes from Bulgarian to the newly formed one - Macedonian. Katardziev claims they (all former IMRO (United) and BCP members) continued to feel themselves in practice as Bulgarians even in Yugoslavia. 46.16.193.70 (talk) 05:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

text: There's no such statement for "Bulgarian and Macedonian in a same time". It is very well described that he is Bulgarian revolutionary, but in Republic of Macedonia he is considered "ethnic Macedonian" (despite his clear self-identification at that time), so there's no controversy. Your statement "neutral or Bulgarian editors" suggests that the Bulgarian editors are not neutral and I'm pretty sure that NPOV does not have nationality, so please refrain from such suggestions. --StanProg (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Clearing out the nationalist tags

message: Please do not erase sourced information! ForeignerFromTheEast 17:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sourced?!?!? You count promacedonia.com as a source?--79.125.183.142 20:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It itself is not a source, but has links to other sources. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To the IP sock

message: , where do you see his affiliation with anarchism? Appears to be indirect, if there's a connection. czar 04:28, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He was a member of Boatmen of Thessaloniki. -- asilvering (talk) 04:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: At least, so our article on them says: . -- asilvering (talk) 04:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I found some sources but it's in passing mention:  And our Bulgarian article doesn't mention him as being an anarchist. czar 04:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He'd be the only member of the Boatmen that isn't in WP:@, which seems a strange omission. That second one even explicitly describes him as an anarchist. I don't know if it's WP:CATDEF levels of "commonly defined as", but then, he's not currently in any :Category:Anarchists subcats either. -- asilvering (talk) 04:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: All good points! Each of these articles could use more robust sourcing. czar 05:00, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, this actually calls him an anarchist in the title, so it looks like we maybe do have WP:CATDEF levels of "commonly defined as" after all: . -- asilvering (talk) 05:16, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anarchist? 

message: @Gurther @Jingiby None of your recent edits appear to be improvements. I'd recommend self-reverts. This article isn't about IMRO (United) and the Macedonian identity. It's about Pavel Shatev. I don't understand the insistince of using Katardžiev especially when you already have other secondary sources about Shatev's identity and who even support the content directly. StephenMacky1 (talk) 11:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No problems. I suggest that the same should happen with the article about Dimitar Vlahov so that I do not have to make the same additions and clarifications there.Jingiby (talk) 12:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. It can apply for all articles where it is currently in. If you want to add interpretations about IMRO (United), you can do so in that article. Thank you. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

text: StephenMacky1, i have no clue what Jingiby has been doing, i only tried to clarify the source that was already cited, it seems to me that Jingby is just inserting bland and unrelated info just to support his previously established agenda. Stuff like the Macedonian nation here sparks with BPOV and nothing more, stuff like this is childish and i expected much better. Gurther (talk) 15:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: StephenMacky1, since i noticed how u removed the forum interview can we agree upon removing all the times the Forum interview has been cited for former IMROU members identity post-WW2 since its unreliable and taken out of context? Gurther (talk) 16:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. You can remove it from any other IMROU members' articles. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Gurther, the source is completely credible and has even been cited by other researchers in their publications and on many articles here. The idea of StephenMacky1 above was to not repeat this information on every article about IMRO United activists, but to move this issue to the article about the organization itself. Jingiby (talk) 04:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Jingiby, you've purposefully taken the source out of context to suit some kind of agenda, if StephenMacky1 didn't want it removed i think he could have clarified. Gurther (talk) 05:58, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Gurther, this is your personal opinion. That is not my interpretation. Katardziev is quoted in exactly this sense, for example, by the Bulgarian historian Stefan Dechev: As the historian Ivan Katardziev pointed out many years ago, even the veterans of the left-wing VMRO (ob.) in the second half of the 1940s "remained only at the level of political, and not of national separatism.” In this sense, we can say that today's definition of Macedonian national identity necessarily goes through Yugoslav socialization and overt anti-Bulgarianism, and this certainly also goes through a historical narrative from Yugoslav times, which seriously ignores historical facts. Not by chance, speaking of personalities like Dimitar Vlahov or Pavel Shatev, Katardziev adds: "They practically felt like Bulgarians. VMRO (Ob.) did not budge from the usual political Macedonian separatism." Jingiby (talk) 07:23, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Jingiby, it isn't my opinion, i advise reading the actual full interview before assuming, Katardziev mentions how this was an effect of Bulgarian philosophy and propaganda over the IMROU members, he even points out how the Macedonian conciousness was damaged during the Balkan wars thus leading to a lot of revolutionaries unaware of what to call themselves, Stefan Dechev seems to have also cherry picked which sections he finds most useful just like you have with Katardziev, one thing that is bewildering to me is that often times you love and even try to find as many Macedonian historians who show even the slightest support to the Bulgarian views, yet when it comes to citing books from Macedonia about the Macedonian views, you instantly deflect them or claim they are unreliable for some outlandish reasons, such as claiming that all Macedonian books made during SR Macedonia are unreliable, which is bold and just plain out wrong. Gurther (talk) 08:41, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is exactly your POV. Jingiby (talk) 08:50, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Jingiby, no Jingby this isn't POV its called reading the entire interview, as a matter of fact i've noticed how a lot of Macedonian interviews are taken out of context to fit some kind of narrative, even the letter from Goce Delcev to Malesevski in 1896 has been taken out of context, not to mention the fact you attempt to remove any tags (without any good reason) on articles and even often times warn people on false reasons, like how you warned me for "edit warring" despite me doing only 2 reverts which followed the guidelines, now yes its true that we all have our own biases but i would never stoop to such a low level as faking warn reasons for no apperent reason. Even your behaviour for the last few days has been extremely defensive and refusing (or barely allowing) any changes on a lot of these articles, i honestly have no clue why you are doing this. Gurther (talk) 09:25, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute