Talk:Estuary English

message: This page really needs a section discussing how Estuary English is not universally accepted among academics. Some deny it completely, whereas others think it's misrepresented. My own tutor believes acceptance of the term is much more common amongst younger lecturers/tutors than older ones. Spuderoony 11:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And since the younger tutors are likely more in touch with the language changes occuring in our society right now, they're more likely to be right, no?  It may not be a unified entity, but it certainly exists as the broad set of trends which are noted in this article. BovineBeast 00:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: academics

message: I think it's important to note that "Estuary English" (pronounced Esh-choo-ree in Estuary) is not a single uniform dialect and there are different variations used by different people, depending on both geographical differences and social class, I don't know of any reliable sources to qualify anything written about Estuary English but most of the information is based on observation and based on my own observations I've found that some people "adopt" Estuary in conversations while others speak it naturally, but on different levels, some people sound more similar to Cockney when speaking it while others are closer to RP. Angryafghan 19:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a Uniform Dialect 

message: I think it's clear that many people, especially people who don't live in areas that speak estuary have a very biased view regarding the way we speak, I'm just as much a chav-hater as the rest of polite society but I also speak in an incredibly thick estuary accent/dialect, I'm not ignorant of how to speak RP and can do so if the social circumstance require it, though I prefer not to. It also does not mean I sound like a moron, for if estuary 'sounds' low-intelligence then by that logic so does every non-standard accent or dialect of the language, but we never hear people say the welsh dialect sounds moronic, or the brummie accent sounds moronic do we?
Also I must raise a question - who exactly says that estuary is 'clear as mud and flows freely'? I'd assume probably only the person who added that to the article. Seek100 02:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm in complete agreement.  Frankly, the majority of people who say it sounds 'stupid' are middle-class people with some kind of superiority complex.  Estuary English is my native dialect and I'd appreciate it if people didn't denigrate it as if it was some kind of inferior one. Ask any linguist and they'll tell you that no dialect is 'better' than another.  Estuary English is just as fit for purpose as any other dialect. BovineBeast 00:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm in cautious agreement. My natural accent is Estuary or Cockney but as I now live in NZ I speak RP because people understand me better. When I'm back home, I go back to Estuary. Language is about communication, therefore a good accent is one that communicates clearly. Also, a lot of middle class people speak with an Estuary accent so it's not a class thing either. And was the chav hating comment really necessary? 125.239.207.41 04:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  chavspeak? 

message: although i do not adopt "estuary english" in any situation, i do think that those who speak it naturally are seen as more equal because it is people from a wider range of social backgrounds which use this dialect rather than the traditional received pronouciation which is now more associated with the upper classes, and also northerners cant say that all southerners talk like posh toffs anymore, if anything they have been outdone because estuary english is a much less attractive accent than some northern accents -  Angryafghan 16:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promoting Equality? 

message: I think the diphthong in "face" is not [ʌɪ] but [aɪ]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.161.26.139 (talk • contribs) .
:You'll need some evidence to back that up. Wells says that the "face" diphthong can be , , , or , but I've never seen any source that's said it's . --Lazar Taxon 23:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  for  would be more Aussie.  If you look at this chart, you'll see what I mean.  They transcribe it as , but the phonetic reality is more like a fully front, fully open  onset (as you can see on the chart), giving . Thegryseone (talk) 23:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

text: FACE as  is rare and most likely restricted to few dialects. --89.79.88.109 (talk) 13:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "face" as [aɪ]?

message: I believe this article may benefit a little from the social class aspects of estuary english? If there is any agreement here on the matter I shall go ahead and write up a section? But I thought I'd double check first as it may not nessessarily be to everyones taste? --WikipedianProlific(Talk) 22:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social Implications of Estuary English 

message: This article states: (but never as a glottal stop between vowels, as in Cockney or in southern dialects, e.g. "water"). First I should point out that the main article on the "Glottal Stop" contradicts the last part of the sentence, I would also like to point out that I live in Essex and am surrounded by people who pronounce "water" // with a glottal stop and unpronounced "r". Angryafghan 16:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of The Glottal Stop 

message: Removed following:
Estuary English definitely is on the rise, arguably replacing old standard dialects such as Scouse even in the North of Great Britain. This is contradicted by  and  which see it as a Southern phenomenon.
It is not clear that this is the case, and the inclusion of contradictory media links seems to be original research. -- Chris Q 08:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  spread to North Britain (removed) 

message: (Estuary English) "uses words from American English and Australian English."
The citation was requested almost three months ago(). --194.145.161.227 00:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from article 

message: I'm no linguistic expert, but I think there's an aspect of Estuary called "the Australian interrogative", which involves stressing the final words of a statement and seeming to phrase it like a question. Any comment? Bill Tegner 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australian Interrogative 

message: Has anyone an idea when the phrase "Estuary Accent" was first used? Bill Tegner 22:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timescale 

message: "A broad A in words such as bath, grass, laugh, etc".
Is it supposed to mean ash? agnus 18:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's the open back unrounded vowel IPA: ɑː  LDHan 19:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think it says that it's distinct from RP (I think you mean Received Pronunciation not International Phonetic Alphabet), but rather that rural working class accents in the south east did not have the "broad A" until relatively recently. LDHan 00:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  broad A 

message: Can the diphthong in the word "coat" be realized as [ʌʊ] in Estuary English?
208.104.45.20 (talk) 06:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, of course. Though the first element is more front than cardinal [ʌ]. --89.79.88.109 (talk) 20:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So is it kinda [ʌ̟ʊ] ? With the first element being backer than [ɜ] ? Because it seems to me that it is. YanisBourgeois (talk) 19:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Diphthong in "Coat" 

message: Is there a bad-lad split in Estuary English? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: no -- Q Chris (talk) 10:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad-lad Split

message: I've noticed that the way English people pronounce, well, England, is different from the way Americans pronounce it.  How would the English pronunciation be written phonetically? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no clue what difference you are having in mind, but might it be that (some?) Americans (sometimes?) pronounce England without the [g], i. e., [ˈʔɪŋlənd] instead of [ˈʔɪŋglənd]? Wiktionary, however, does not mention any such difference, nor any other. Merriam-Webster lists both pronunciation variants, but does not attribute the difference to regional variation – in fact, it does not explain nor even comment on the difference at all. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

text: In EE either way, it's [ˈʔɪŋglənd] ('inglund').  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teh.cmn (talk • contribs) 18:02, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: England

message: Some sound files comparing Estuary English to Received Pronunciation would be very welcome. - Jmabel | Talk 22:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want sound files go here or here.  There might be some examples on the first Web site.  Click on "Dorset" in the second Web site I gave you, then click on "Skater Talk" or "Harry's Words".  I would just call it "Southeastern English".  I realize Dorset is in the southwest of England, but who knows if those two guys are actually from there.  I'm pretty sure Harry isn't because he's "at uni".  However, I assure you that the way these two guys speak is what people mean when they use the term "Estuary English". Thegryseone (talk) 00:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I am interested for myself, but mostly felt that they'd be an improvement to the article. - Jmabel | Talk 04:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound files? 

message: I've removed the following passage: "This [broad A] is often seen as the litmus test of a South East accent, but it has only spread to rural areas of the South East in the last forty years.".  It is uncited.  Wells, writing in 1982, said Accents of English, p. 335:  "In a broad local accent of the south ... glass is [glɑ:s ~ gla:s]".  The map on the next page shows that he considers this to apply to all parts of England that would be considered to belong to "the South East".  Google Books link.
Grover cleveland (talk) 06:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What funny discussions. The made-up joke word "Strine" was in the title of a humour book "Let Stalk Strine", and since its publication the term "strine" is occasionally used as a humourous name to describe the Broad Australian accent (never the much more common General Australian accent.) I guess by "Australian Interrogative" you and the commenter above mean High Rising Terminal? It is not really Australian. The claim in the UK that younger UK speakers started speaking like that due to the influence of Australian soap operas seems very faulty by the way and has no references. See the comments on that page (those "younger" UK Neighbours viewers will now be in their early 40s. Are they still speaking with a High Rising Terminal these days? Also, Australian television has been consistently dominated by US TV programs since 1956, but Australians still aren't speaking with American accents.) Format (talk) 19:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Broad A

message: As in 'it may eventually replace RP'? Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 20:23, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Received Pronunciation. Thegryseone (talk) 21:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What is RP?

message: I've remove this sentence from the article:
Australian scientists have found, in researching Queen Elizabeth's anniversary speeches that even she has shifted her accent slightly towards what is called Estuary.
The sources cited: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1080228.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4108610-103690,00.html do not make any such claim. All they say is that the "Queen's accent is moving towards the standard accent of southern England, away from the cut-glass "upper-crust" accent of the 1950s". The "standard accent of southern England" here is middle class speech not Estuary English, i.e. she has moved towards standard RP from "marked" (old fashioned) RP. 92.40.136.224 (talk) 13:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Give me a break. "Shifting one's accent slightly towards what is called Estuary" (actually, only her vowels have been demonstrated to shift in the Estuary direction) does not mean the same as "talks Estuary" at all. If she's shifting away from RP, she can very well shift towards (not into) EE at the same time, and in fact that is exactly what was found: the "standard accent of southern England" is not Estuary English, but intermediate between RP and EE, so the contradiction you are reading into this is not there. Here's a dime, go buy a clue. Get some bloody reading comprehension. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Queen "has shifted her accent slightly towards what is called Estuary" 

message: For non-English readers, this article would be immensely more informative if it would be better structured. At the moment, it reads very much like a random list of aspects found in Estuary English, while a systematic comparison between RP and Estuary would make it understandable to all of those who aren't from the London area.Jeppiz (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Estuary and RP

message: ===T glottalisation===
The article states the pronunciation of water as wa'er is common in EE. However, I think for EE this trait is generally limited to final t is words like not, with medial t glottalisation being largely confined to the London working class.
:If you mean RP, then you are right. If you mean EE, you are wrong, at least according to T-glottalization. Intervocalic (medial) glottalisation is a feature that's excluded from RP only, and final glottalisation is even possible in RP these days. Cockney features are apparently on their way up and have progressed farther than you (and seemingly, many other people) are aware, or willing to admit. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found out what the problem was: the person who  the point did not understand what "confrontational question tags" are, or at least provided wrong examples. I've removed them and added a link to explain what is really meant here. It's exactly about not getting them "right", but intentionally employing "inappropriate" (asymmetrical, nonstandard) ones. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  
Three
 Two issues 

message: The article states the pronunciation of water as wa'er is common in EE. However, I think for EE this trait is generally limited to final t is words like not, with medial t glottalisation being largely confined to the London working class.
:If you mean RP, then you are right. If you mean EE, you are wrong, at least according to T-glottalization. Intervocalic (medial) glottalisation is a feature that's excluded from RP only, and final glottalisation is even possible in RP these days. Cockney features are apparently on their way up and have progressed farther than you (and seemingly, many other people) are aware, or willing to admit. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: T glottalisation

message: I thought these were standard English. My first class teacher at grammar school, whose pronunciation was distinctly RP, devoted quite some time to getting them right, telling us it would be rather impolite if you left them out. Even a textbook from the 1950s I consulted included tag questions. So I think they are perfectly acceptable in RP. Steinbach (talk) 11:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found out what the problem was: the person who  the point did not understand what "confrontational question tags" are, or at least provided wrong examples. I've removed them and added a link to explain what is really meant here. It's exactly about not getting them "right", but intentionally employing "inappropriate" (asymmetrical, nonstandard) ones. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Tag questions

message: There used to be a description of the vowel pronunciations in this article, but it was , apparently by its . That's quite unfortunate as a source was given for the data. Now there is nothing about the (phonetic) vowel realisations left. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored it and will try to expand it even more. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 04:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vowels 

message: I don't see that this article is the place for a description of the London accent; if it was, it would need to be a lot more detailed than this brief note. My main concern is the use (twice) of the term "mild" to refer to an accent that is relatively close to RP. Mildness is not a concept that can be used meaningfully in describing accents. I would like to see this section removed.  RoachPeter (talk) 10:15, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 18:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  London accent 

message: The claim made in the item "Replacement of [ɹ] with [ʋ]" is not supported by published evidence. Cruttenden (2014), for example, states the opposite.  RoachPeter (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You can always reword it according to what Cruttenden (2014) writes. Remember about WP:Be bold, especially when editing/removing unsourced stuff. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 23:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Features 

message: We need sources for the following:
*  realised as  (= ) or . Przedlacka (2001:42) transcribes it as , which is definitely not the correct value (too open).
*  realised as , . You can hear it in  He doesn't always use this pronunciation, but it definitely does occur. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 05:15, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources needed 

message: We don't need the pronunciations of estuary here as they're already on the page for estuary. Meemo16 (talk) 11:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 07:38, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciations Pointless 

message: I'm not happy abut this new name being given equal status with the name Estuary English in the first sentence of the lead of this article. LRGB is the recent creation of one writer (the only refs are to his book and to a web page of his university department), while the term Estuary English has been in widespread use for decades. Would it not be possible to use the immediately following section about the name of EE (which is currently only about abbreviations for names already introduced), introducing the term LRGB and perhaps summarizing Cruttenden's arguments in favour of its adoption? I think that would more accurately reflect the status of the new name, and it would follow what is done in the Received Pronunciation article, where there is a separate section to cover alternative names.  RoachPeter (talk) 09:10, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I have flagged it as a possible Neologism. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:21, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved it below and made it clear that only Cruttenden uses that term. I think that is enough to remove the tag. Peter238 (talk) 09:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  London Regional General British 

message: Given the continuing scepticism among many specialists on English pronunciation about whether EE should be treated as an accent of English, I propose (unless opposed) to take the last para of the "Features" section and move it into a new section (probable title "Status of Estuary English as an accent of English") just before the "Features" section. RoachPeter (talk) 17:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Status of EE as a genuine English accent 

message: Can someone add in links from old Kentish accent - Dickens era - from Thames and Medway - that formed origin of modern Australian accent.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.7.91 (talk) 13:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australian accent 

message: It isn't clear whether the 'Features' section is intended to be confined to features that differentiate EE from RP.  If it is, then it should not include features like non-rhoticity, which are found in RP and many other English accents. As to the 'board'/ 'bored' distinction, I can't offhand think of any English accent in which these two words would NOT be distinct.109.149.91.214 (talk) 14:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of 'Features' 

message: I think it would be worth mentioning as a feature that in place of the more common /ɹ/ many speakers of EE (such as myself) will use /ʋ/ instead. I know that it's on the page for the Labiodental Approximant but I think it should be here and on the page for the Cockney dialect where it's mentioned in passing. I don't have any sources but I see it IRL. Thank you.
Apyrrypa (talk) 23:19, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Labiodental R 

message: The acrolect in southeastern England is probably best defined: it is Standard British English with Received Pronunciation. The basilect is arguably the Cockney dialect, at least in London, and presumably Multicultural London English in some quarters. I'm not sure if traditional dialects are still spoken in Kent, Essex, and other counties of southeastern England at all. So, couldn't Estuary English be equated with the mesolect – at least in parts of London? In places where traditional dialects have fallen out of use, however, Estuary English can be described as simply the basilect, or as both basilect and mesolect (the original basilect having disappeared). As a mesolect emcompasses all points in the continuum between acrolect (the standard language, especially its most formal register – as far as it is actually in use) and basilect (the variety considered most remote from the standard and least prestigious which is used in a certain place), it's not a problem that Estuary English isn't a coherent accent and varies from place to place. Is my understanding of the situation correct?
Perhaps it could even be said that Estuary English basically encompasses all substandard varieties of British English that are considered native to southeast England now – the main exception being the distinctive Multicultural London English sociolect –, contrasting only with Standard British English. This situation can be compared to Germany, where traditional dialects (both long-standing local dialects and regional koiné dialects arisen through dialect levelling), regiolects (based on Standard German, though with distinctive regional colour and interference from traditional dialects), and the standard language (or spoken varieties very close to the standard language) all co-exist, although in many regions traditional dialects have more or less disappeared and heterogeneous regiolects contrast only with a largely (though, as Werner König has shown, even in Germany not completely) uniform standard language, the regiolects acting as "neo-dialects". --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mesolect 

message: I don't think the infobox is appropriate here. The infobox template used is designed for a language, not an accent. Consequently, we get a branching diagram tracing EE’s ancestry through English right back to Indo-European, as though EE was a daughter language derived from English instead of an accent of present-day English. We are told, rather unnecessarily, that its writing system is “Latin (English alphabet)”. About the only potentially useful bit of information in the infobox is that there are 8.6 million speakers of EE, a factoid that is unsupported and completely unverifiable. May I suggest that the infobox be removed?  RoachPeter (talk) 16:01, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, and . –Austronesier (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

text: PS: Maybe we need to restore the IPA warning ("This page contains IPA. Without proper rendering, IPA can be hurtful to your eyes, please consult the following pages or your local physician etc."), but I don't know how to place that template. –Austronesier (talk) 16:10, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Nardog (talk) 18:51, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: I have commented above that, useful though it is to have illustrative recordings, the two recordings given in this article are labelled as EE without any supporting citation. That seems to me to make the use of them a case of OR. If nobody can come up with a suitable citation I believe it is necessary to remove them.  RoachPeter (talk) 14:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound files 

message: The "Features" section of this article has a number of weaknesses. One is that the material does not seem as if it would help an uninformed reader to understand how to recognize EE as distinct from Cockney or RP. An anonymous contributor to this Talk page has earlier pointed out something of the sort (see 'EE vs. RP'). Only at the end of "Features" do we get two points of difference from Cockney that could be thought of as diagnostic. To start the section by saying that EE is non-rhotic, and that is exhibits "intrusive /r/" is not very informative. Some of the later items in this section seem more diachronic than synchronic, as if the article were describing the emergence of an accent rather than the characteristics of an existing one: there is material on "vowel changes", "yod coalescence", "vowel splits". I feel this whole section needs rewriting to explain firstly where present-day EE stands, phonologically, between contemporary RP and Cockney, and secondly what phonological processes are claimed to have taken place in the emergence of EE.  RoachPeter (talk) 15:13, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Features 

message: It's hard to see what this section has to do with the Estuary English described in the rest of the article. Even if the section is thought to be relevant, the opening sentence contains this: "Older rural dialects were once mainly confined to Kent and the north and the east of Essex". As it stands, that is nonsense - older rural dialects were found all over the country. RoachPeter (talk) 08:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: True, this wording is my shoddy synthesis of different sentences from other articles. My intention was to give those looking for older rural Southeastern accents a single place to land, and this seemed the best place, especially if no particular features can be distinguished other than moribund rhoticity. Other suggestions? Wolfdog (talk) 00:45, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

text: Also, you may want to check the more robust description of these same dialects here. Wolfdog (talk) 03:09, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditional rural Estuary English