Talk:Eeny, meeny, miny, moe

message: *Coming from the UK, I have never heard "tiger". Nor have I ever heard "baby". I have only heard "nigger" and "tinker" - a variation that nobody else has mentioned. Why haven't I heard "baby"? Is it something that was introduced in the last 10-20 years?--Oxonian2006 00:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, this version is clearly racist and refers to slavery. In one of the versions showed it says: "if he won't work them let him go..." This extract shows that the rhyme really talks about slaves.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.198.50.14 (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Baby" version?

message: I feel it is misleading to refer to the PC version as the 'current' version as though there is some official version which we should all know. The older version is still around. Surely the 'current' heading is an attempt to manipulate the audience into thinking that this is the version which they ought to use (rather then the version with the awkward word in it). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 (talk) 21:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added the most commonly used additional words. See this scholarly source for details  https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/289662607:F2C0:94DA:C500:F169:EA16:A9E6:8FB0 (talk) 05:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @MichaelMaggs I think the unregistered editor was citing the above source but might not know how to cite it within the line? Maineartists (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can fix the format of the source, but don't remove the "magazine" continuation part. This article has all sorts of archaic versions in different languages, but the current main version should certainly be included.199.119.233.221 (talk) 16:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @199.119.233.221 You really should learn how to properly cite sources so that other editors can use the same source. Especially if there is additional content that can be drawn from the source. See Cite Web: Template. Also, the source you have cited is a Communal Encyclopedia Wiki. You need to cite the book from where the verse came from: R. D. Abrahams and L. Rankin, Counting-out Rhymes: a Dictionary (University of Texas Press, 1980), p. 119 Maineartists (talk) 23:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Version/s? 

message: This isn't an article about that movie, so I trimmed back a lengthy discussion of the scene. The only  reason it's here is the use of the rhyme, so character names, etc., aren't needed - DavidWBrooks 12:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pulp Fiction 

message: Can someone add a citation for the lawsuit? to a newspaper article or something? meanwhile, I'll lexis nexis it.Found it and added link--Muchosucko 08:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  lawsuit citation 

message: I'm considering changing the British version to
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe 
Catch a fishy with your' toe 
If it's nice lick it twice, 
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe. 
As it is the standard version in my area, however I am unsure of it's popularity in other areas.Cardboard boxA 18:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like that could be a regional variation. May be worth adding it to the article, but I don't think it could be described as the definitive British version. I grew up with the "tiger" version myself. --62.30.181.30 13:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard the "tiger" version, despite having lived in Lincolnshire, Essex and Lancashire. "Tigger" is the version I know best. --Longwayround 17:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Updated British version

message: Right now, following the additions by an apparently well-informed anonymous IP concerning "nigger" versions printed in the early 1920s, we say both that "The earliest known published versions in the English language date to 1855," and that there are a lack of "tiger" versions in print before 1950. This implies that the 1855 version uses "nigger", or at least doesn't use "tiger". Does anybody know if this is the case? If we don't know for sure, we need to change something. - DavidWBrooks 20:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it clearer now? Basically, earlier versions (and it will have been around for a long time before it was ever recorded, this being the nature of folk rhymes, especially before the 20th century) used a variety of different people and animals. Skittle 22:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  published history 

message: Ini Miney and Mimi Miney are in a separate case from the clown named Moe. Furthermore, since the clown's full name is given as Larry Curls, it seems clear to me that Larry "Moe" Curls is a Three Stooges reference, not a "eeny meeny miny moe" reference. -- Sertrel (talk | contribs) 17:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phoenix Wright reference 

message: I have come to the conclusion that eeny-meenie-etc. is too popular for us to list all the times it shows up in films/books/TV/etc. - the section is growing *way* out of bounds. I'd like to throw out virtually all of them, keeping only extremely unusual cases (e.g., the character names in Rushdie's novel). Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks 20:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Four months later I did it - removing all instances in which are character says "eenie meenie ..." to make choices. I left in all the songs, since I couldn't decide if that counted or not. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 19:27, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many pop-culture references 

message: Bolton in his 1888 work on children's counting rhymes collected about eighteen variants of "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo" (see pages 105-106). Of these, eight are included in Section 1—"Catch a nigger by the toe." Most of these were from the United States, but at least two were from the British Isles. Of these eight, five caught "a nigger by the toe" (No.s 600, 601, 602, 604, & 606); one "a negro by the toe" (No. 603); one "a baby by the toe" (No. 605); and one "a nigger by the thumb" (No. 607). Altogether Bolton collected more than 50 variants of "Enie, Meenie". Bolton states earlier in his book that the "nigger" variant likely originated in the U.S. The use of "tiger by the toe" seems to be an adult adaption of the children's rhyme dating from the mid-20th century as it appears nowhere in Bolton's collection. Hope this helps.
*Bolton, Henry Carrington, The Counting-out Rhymes of Children: Their Antiquity, Origin, and Wide Distribution. New York: D. Appleton & Co. (1888). BackSignTiger (talk) 04:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, the "catch a baby by the toe" was collected in Newport, Rhode Island, not in England. BackSignTiger (talk) 04:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The book also points out that the rhyme was the most popular version among American schoolchildren at the time (page 46) and that "every state in the union" reported this (page 105). -- Otto 19:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 1880 citation

message: The following statements are not supported by actual facts: "As pointed out in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, the word "nigger" was common in American folk-lore, but unknown in any English traditional rhyme or proverb. This, combined with evidence of various versions of the rhyme in England that predate the "nigger" version, suggest that the "nigger" version merely became the most popular at some point in the 20th century, probably originating in America."
For instance, the well known American song "Ten Little Indians" was published in the US before 1868—Frank Green published the British version "Ten Little Niggers" in 1869. Also, the only reference found to anything "caught by the toe" in Britian other than "nigger by the toe" was found by Gomme (p. 420) in a schoolgirl's dancing song from Scotland c. 1898 (similar to "hokey-cokey"):
:Eendy, beendy, baniba, roe,
:Caught a chicken by the toe;
:To the east, to the west,
:To the old crow's nest,
:Hopping in the garden, swimming in the sea,
:If you want a pretty girle, please take me.
*Gomme, Alice Bertha. The Traditional Games of England, Scotland, and Ireland. London: David Nutt (1898) BackSignTiger (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading statments re English traditional rhyme, etc. 

message: An editor was beginning to put the various national versions into table format. I have reverted the effort because I found it  visually very confusing - tables are great for organizing information in which individual pieces of data are relatively small, but not for long stanzas of poetry. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table format 

message: Hmm, the article seems to be missing something important: the properties of the rhyme as a random choice generator. Would I be right in assuming that in the normal versions, it's four choices per line? So the british version would pick 16 mod Number of choices?--Fangz (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence "... used to select a person to be "it" for games and similar purposes." seems to me to cover that pretty well. And it's not really random - in fact, it's totally predictable who will be chosen once you begin; it's just too complicated to be worth the bother of calculating in advance who that choice will be. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  To an observer who doesn't understand the "code" it's impossible to distinguish appeared randomness and true randomness. These are children after all, and for them it is as good as any pseudorandom generating computer. (Anyone remembering becoming a little older, and the discussion and feelings when you started figuring out that it wasn't random after all?) I second a carefully worded paragraph of the random generator phenomena. Vbakke (talk) 21:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  While I've seen various rhymes used for choosing a child 'randomly', whenever someone has a difficult and descision that doesn't matter too much, very often they use 'eeny meeny' etc. I think that a section on use as a descision making aid should be included, with reference to the lack of true randomness. rdm_box 00:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The indicated phrase doesn't remotely cover this well enough. *How* does the poem "select a person to be 'it'"? Whomever can say it fastest is It? Everybody says a word in sequence, and whomever messes up first is It? Applejuicefool (talk) 04:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  As a 'random' choice generator 

message: I'm not familiar with the French version shown here.  The one I've heard is this:
Ams tram gram
Pic et pic et colégram 
Bour et bour et ratatam 
Ams tram gram
This is also the one shown in the French version of this article.
Funnyhat (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  French version 

message: The phonetic Mandarin version given isn't very good. I'm not sure what the source is but it isn't proper pinyin. Can we get this in proper pinyin or hanzi, or even an English translation? Pfmiller (talk) 23:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mandarin version 

message: In this country it is said to be a Jitanjáfora[]
Ini, ini, maini,mo,
que cheleque palestó,
que jingale, lestingó,
ini, ini, maini mo. 
Notice:Can anyone help me with the 'quote copyright format' cause I've forgotten. Book 'Ómnibus de poesía mexicana' Author Gabriel Zaid p.123, etc.
Just give me the dummy and I'll fill it in, please--207.249.136.254 (talk) 18:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  México 

message: Many German children rhymes from various regions start with the words "ene mene", see de:Abzählreim. For example:
   ene, mene, muh
   und raus bist du
or:
   eene meene mickimaus
   zog sich mal die hose aus
   zog sie wieder an
   und du bist dran  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DD:3F34:374C:5CEE:B893:577C:1AEF (talk) 01:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germany 

message: The same exists in French. It's a rhyme designed to out players one by one. The words mean nothing particular. 
am, stram, gram
pic et pic et colégram
bourre et bourre et ratatam
am, stram, gram  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.178.123 (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  French 

message: I'm 22 and live in New Zealand. The version all my friends and I used was "eeny meenie miney moe, catch a nigger by the toe, if he squeels, let him go, eeny meenie miney moe." I don't think I've ever heard any other version than this. --222.155.38.107 (talk) 12:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Zealand 

message: Growing up in the midwestern U.S. (1965) I never heard the racist version used. The rhyme was about catching a tiger, and it used "if it hollers, let it go". I now live in South Carolina and have heard children here using the exact same tiger rhyme. I'm offended by the fact (i.e. Southwest Airlines lawsuit) that if anyone says "eeny meeny" now they are thought to be making a racist slur, just because some people know a racist version. Even after hearing about the Southwest Airlines lawsuit and the new taboo being forced on even the innocent version of this rhyme, I still automatically think "eeny meeny" when picking between two things and am apt to say it by accident. I think the taboo should obviously only be on any racist version of the rhyme. Great article about the various versions including the Latin, thanks. --User:Urthcreature
Another experience, from my grandmother (b. 1889, Hood County, Texas)
My grandmother taught my mother this version: Eeny, meeny, minie, mo.  Catch a nigger by the toe. If he hollers make him pay fifty dollars every day.  My mother, who grew up in Fort Smith, Arkansas, taught it to her children, and we, who grew up in Oklahoma and Texas, never heard any other version.  Our companions all knew it this way too.
Texas Star Thrower 12:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As I child I used this version, replacing the epithet with "tigger", like the Winnie-The-Pooh character. Applejuicefool (talk) 04:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  reminisence 

message: I have removed the following from the article, because while it's a choosing rhyme with similar-sounding words in the opening, it's not close enough to "eeny meeny ..." to be here.
Another rhyme popular in India which closely matches the initial couplet in similar-sounding words goes like...
अक्कड़ बक्कड़ बाम्बे बो (Akkad Bakkad Bambay Bo)
अस्सी नब्भे पूरे सौ (Assi Nabbe Pooray Sau = 80 90 total 100)
सौ में लगी बिल्ली (Sau mein lagi billi = Buy a cat with 100)
बिल्ली भागी दिल्ली (Billi bhaagi Dilli = The cat ran away to Delhi)
बोले शेख चिल्ली (Bolay Shekh Chilli = The Saint Chilly said...)
खेले डंडा गिल्ली (Khelay Danda Gilli = (They) Play (game called) Danda Gilli)
गिल्ली गई टूट (Gilli gayi toot = The Gilli Broke)
बच्चे गए रूठ (Bachchay Gaye Rooth = The children went cross)
बच्चों को मनाएंगे (Bachchon ko manainge = We'll coerce the kids)
रस मलाई खायेंगे (Ras-Malayi Khainge = They'll eat sweet dish)
रस मलाई अच्छी (Ras-Malayi Achchee = The sweet dish was good)
हमने खायी मच्छी (Hamne Khayi Machchee = We ate fish)
मच्छी में काँटा (Machchee mein kaanta = The fish had a bone)
पड़ेगा ज़ोर से चांटा (Padeyga zor se chhanta = You'll get a slap)
This is usually followed by the last person being either selected for his turn in the game, or slapped.
- DavidWBrooks (talk) 18:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  India version 

message: I was wondering whether the incident involving the unaired taping of Top Gear, and Clarkson saying the supposedly racist version of this rhyme should be covered? Arun Sunner 23:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jeremy Clarkson incident. 

message: This is the one i learned as a kid
::eeny, meeny, miny, moe
::catch a tigger by the toe
::if he hollers, let him go
::if he doesn't, make him pay
::fifty dollars every day
::and you are now it.(line is usually said much louder/exaggerated)
68.117.88.143 (talk) 06:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a reliable source for this? Sadly our memories are not enough for inclusion here.--SabreBD (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nope and I don't intend to look for one. Heh. i just posted that for interest sake. As another interesting aside, often times the last line was changed by kids to read you are "NOT" it and then they would do  surprise tag on a different kid68.117.88.143 (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Longer version of the rhyme

message: The article currently states
::The "Hana, man" was found by Henry Bolton in the US, Ireland and Scotland in the 1880s but was unknown in England until later in the century.
However, it also gives an example of a ryhme collected in Cornwall in 1882 which is clearly a variation of the same. This strikes me as very odd. Unfortunately I do not have the Opies' book. Can anyone answer the following questions?
* Did Bolton really find exactly identical rhymes in the US, Ireland and Scotland?
* Do the Opies really claim it was unknown in England (this seems rather a leap to make) or just that it was unrecorded?
Thanks Thehalfone (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a copy of a 1938 dissertation that quotes some of the rhymes Bolton found. They are not identical. You can check out his book, too. Adraeus (talk) 00:37, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: :"Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
:Catch a tiger by its toe,
:If he hollers let him go,
:Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"
Then:
: "My mother says to,
: Pick the very best one,
: And that is you,
: Y – O – U"
-- AlexanderHovanec (talk) 04:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the first version in the article, although there's no definitive source for saying exactly which wording is "most common" - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:34, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most common version 

message: This article currently has a Finnish rhyme that is sort of like Eenie Meenie but not really very much, as well as "Inky Binky", an English-language children's rhyme that has no connection that I can see except that it's one of many, many kids rhymes with some nonsense syllables. 
Including those two implies that they have some connection to Eenie Meenie, which isn't supported. 
I would like to remove both of them, leaving a sentence or two saying that there are many similar-sounding poems and rhymes in English and in other languages using nonesense words, but the connection between them and Eenie Meenie is unclear. 
Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that "Inky Binky" and similar nonsense rhymes should go, as well as anything else that isn't according to a reliable source connected or at least potentially connected with "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe". The test shouldn't be whether it does or does not look similar on the page, but what scholars have said about it. I haven't looked at the Finnish source, but that's what should in my view determine the issue. MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. that's sort of covered in the history section, above, noting the lack of obvious and agreed-upon connections. The Finnish item's only source is in Finnish, which doesn't make it a good source for the English Wikipedia. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 21:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: So far as I can make out from Google Translate, the source for the Finnish verse discusses its similarity to some German rhymes, but there's no mention at all of "Eenie Meenie". MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed them both. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Variants 

message: The article begins with this passage:
""Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"—which can be spelled a number of ways—is a children's counting-out rhyme, used to select a person in games such as tag, or for selecting various other things. It is one of a large group of similar rhymes in which the child who is pointed to by the chanter on the last syllable is chosen."
That is the entirety of any explanation of how the rhyme is used.
The article needs at least a brief explanation of how this rhyme is used to choose among several alternatives: by pointing to each one in turn on each stressed syllable, using a circular order on the alternatives, with the last alternative pointed to becoming the choice. 
(So if there are N alternatives numbered 1 through N in order, the final choice will be the one having number 16 mod N, i.e., the remainder when 16 is divided by N. E.g., if N = 5 the choice will be the alternative having the number 1.)
I hope someone knowledgeable about this subject can fix this.
:There's no single way to use it - your description is a common method but not the only one. We don't really need more of a description. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing important information