Talk:Dick Grayson/Archive 1

message: This archive page covers approximately the dates in April 2006
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Dick Grayson/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 15:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

message: All the superhero bio's sum up the influence/importance of the character to the comicbook medium and Nightwings article should be no different. Right now it reads very dry, uninteresting and doesn't acknowledge the massive popularity/cultural siginificance of Dick Grayson. When Dick was Robin(for 50plus years) he crystalized and popularized one of comicdom's most imminent persona's: ROBIN. This has to be mentioned in the intro paragrapgh, the fact he no longer is Robin makes no difference becuase WHILE he was Robin he "created one of comicdom's most popular and important characters" plus as far as anyone is concerned Dick is responisble for the creation and popularization of the character in mainstream culture and it directly relates to him breaking out and becoming Nightwing. -- 63.138.87.171
:Yeah but can you do it without sounding NPOV?  Cause it's coming off as a bit of a fan love, which while I agree in part Grayson is the bomb, this is an encyclopedia, and factual trumps worship.  "becoming one of comicdom's most important and popular characters." Most important? Is that quantifiable?  Also, I think you can keep the emancipation shorter intro in, since it's related in the ToC/History about how he became Nightwing.  The Superman angle is important, IMO, because it shows how Dick is influenced by other heros, and not just Batman. -- Ipstenu 14:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, superman and batman were the inspiration for Grayson's heroic career, that's a fact. The robin popularity sounds only like fan love - Neodammerung 21:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Disagree, Superman, at least the Earth-1 Superman, is Nightwing I, the history of DC-hero Nightwing starts with Superman. This is an encyclopedia and a comic book produced in 1963 is just as relevant as one produced in 2005. ThW5 12:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: This article is for Dick Grayson, but I agree with you. We should move this to "Dick Grayson" and use the "Nightwing" page for all the others nightwings, specially now that we are giving more importance to the robin persona. - Neodammerung 13:11, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine, but whomever did the edit, didn't move the info, they cut it out. I switched your intro around to still give some homage to the 'other Nightwings' comment, since frankly the article is 'Nightwing' and not 'Dick Grayson.'  As such, we have to mention it.  Then I added in a 'Other Nightwings in the DCU' section to try and stem the tide.  Frankly, We should renamed this 'Dick Grayson' and give Nightwing it's own disambig page. Nightwing (Dick Grayson), Nightwing (Jason Todd), Nightwing (Kryptonian)?  Uuugh.  The Batman correlation isn't a good example. Look at Superboy for a better one, since there are three (?) valid holders of the title - Kal-L, Superboy-Prime, and Kon-El. -- Ipstenu 19:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: He didn't create the nightwing persona, he only adopted it. Besides, this guy was Robin for some 40 or 50 years, so "Nightwing" as the article name is obviously wrong. - Neodammerung 00:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I direct the attention of all concerned towards the articles Flash and Green Lantern, two other aliases that multiple individuals assumed at various points.  In each article, there are links to sub articles, for example within Flash there are links to Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West.  In this way, it makes the overall composition structurally sound.  Netkinetic 04:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: You are wrong, and the only person who is against this is you. I recommend you to read some history about the character before posting your opinions. Dick didn't create the Nightwing persona, he used the name as inspiration. Not to mention that he was the first and most iconic Robin - Neodammerung 11:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: In the DC ENCYLOCPEDIA it's clearly stated "Nightwing's Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only to Batman" Which is a huge compliment since Dick, agewise is even younger than Bruce was in Year One when he first donnned the cape and cowl!! I'd say Nightwing is equal to Dardevil in Martial Arts abilities which is why he's just a notch below Bruce. Dick is still in the top five Martial Artists in the entire DC universe.
If you disagree then give feats/examples?
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No disagreement with the exact wording ("Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only") since it could be taken to mean that he is second place in that combination of skills.  That exact sentence should stay.  However, unless I am missing an event, Nightwing has never beaten or tied with any of the top contenders for the #1 position.  In fact, Nightwing was defeated by a martial artist that was in turn defeated by Connor Hawke.  And Connor Hawke has been defeated by Lady Shiva and Constantine Drakon.  And Lady Shiva has been taken out by Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain (although Shiva's beaten them both at times).  Nightwing is one of the best in the world, but I've yet to see anything in the comics to validate calling him a contender for the top position.
:I don't think that Dick Grayson is among the top 5 martial artist in the DCU, because we have Shiva, Cassandra Cain (who is dead, but may be returning), Batman, Constantine Drakon, Connor Hawke, Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger. Is pretty sure that Nightwing is among the top 10, but no way he is one of the five greatest.
:::--Kidfried  03:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skills/Abilities 

message: Can anyone give a source for this Jeet Kune Do stuff? I don't know about martial arts, but i think escrima is a more used discipline. - Neodammerung 21:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jeet Kune Do? 

message: According to Bob Kane in his autobiography, it wasn't DC Comics who thought Robin would help appeal to youngsters, it was Kane and it seems mostly Bill Finger. Kane states that his then boss Jack Liebowitz didn't want Robin in the book and though mothers would be upset at a chile fighting gangsters. He allowed Kane and Finger a shot to prove him wronng and said if it went bad they would remove Robin from the book. After the positive responce to The Boy Wonder Kane joked to his boss that they better get rid of him now and his boss agreed to let Robin stay.
FWIW, Bob Kane's been noted for taking considerable credit for the Batman line that isn't really his.  Not that Robin didn't turn out well, but I suspect Kane takes more credit than is deserved. Ipstenu 18:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appealing to youngsters. 

message: Could someone familiar with the Nite-Wing character do something with the Wiki article? I would post this in the discussion for said article, but no one would see it. (I'd do it myself but I am pretty ignorant of the character.) Korvac 16:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently there is a stub at 'Nite-Wing' and a real article at 'Nite-wing'. Perhaps the real article should be migrated to the correct place? Korvac 13:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Like Korvac, I have a request for someone more knowledgable: In the 'Nightwing Begins' section, should it be mentioned that grayson turning to Superman for advice and a name would be a slap in the face to Batman (who has an ongoing rivalry with Superman)? badmonkey 12:15, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pointer to Nite-Wing article 

message: Elements of this article require a good trim (I have made a start), Wikipedia is intended as an encyclopedia not a sub for actually reading the comics. If the section here on infinite crisis is actually longer than that on the trimmed and editted infinite crisis page, then work needs to be do! :)
I removed the One year later bit - I don't see what purpose it serves at this time. Once we know what has occured it might be worth putting such a section in. 
--Charlesknight 20:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trimming

message: Actually, now that I think of it, there is a point to be made about the Red X persona in the Teen Titans TV show.  Regardless of whether or not that Robin is Grayson, he is the Robin that grows up to be Nightwing in that Universe, and Red X was a significant alias of his.  A very brief passage might be acceptable in that light.   D1Puck1T 22:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Red X would be more appropriate on the Robin page, but this could be argued both ways.  Ugh. Robin (Teen Titans Animated)? I almost dread creating new pages about this, but a spin-off for the other Robins, makes this 'I don't belong to any continuity, neener!' Robin different. -- Ipstenu 16:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is for the character of the comics, not for the one of the animated series - kidfried 21:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red X 

message: Does anyone really get Dick confused with the other Nightwings?  When you think Robin, there are three significant people who come to mind.  Green Lantern:  four plus.  The Flash: four/three plus.  When "Nightwing" is mentioned, do you think "Gee, is he talking about Superman, the original one from Krypton, or Dick Grayson?  Or maybe Jason Todd."  or for example "Nightwing helped Batman."  Does that make you wonder if it could possibly be during an adventure with Superman as Nightwing.  
Dick Grayson is Nightwing.  Superman as Nightwing (did that happen Post-Crisis as well) and the Kryptonian Nightwing, currently serve to give the name heritage and depth.  Not having a page with your real name (a la Tim Drake, Bart Allen, etc) is not a sign of disrespect or less importance.  It shows, much like Batman and Superman, that Dick has been elevated to that iconic status.  (as many of the heroes gush about Nightwing's stature and importance).
Anyway, everyone's making good arguments, and they should've been heard before whoever randomly decided to split it.  Exvicious 07:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As a matter of fact, everyone (except for colossus34) agreed for The Split. -  Neodammerung 21:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not so much that I think people confuse Dick with other Nightwings, but that the original layout of the Nightwing article made it nigh impossible for anyone to add in information about other Nightwings for lack of logical and/or appropriate places.  Also, it's that Dick has been so much more than Nightwing, and many people (myself included) automatically think 'Robin = Grayson' when we think of Dick Grayson. Much of the article mentions things that are much more Grayson specific than Nightwing.  If Dick had been the only Nightwing, and he'd only been Nightwing, then staying Nightwing makes sense.  This allows for much more flexibility in Grayson's life (he may not remain Nightwing forever, after all), while giving respect to the need for an encyclopediotic entry about the past.  Finally, with the 'new Nightwing and Flamebird' coming soon, this confusion and lack of full information was only going to get worse.   There was conversation open about this since January, and most people seemed to think 'wait till OYL.'  We have Todd and Grayson as Nightwing now, and who knows how long that will last.  Personally, I think that unless a superhero name is synonymous with one character only, we should be using their real names (like the Green Lanterns, Flashes and Robins). -- Ipstenu 11:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't agree with your Jason Todd argument, mostly because i think it's just a story arc development.  Also, according to Nightwing: Year One, Superman didn't create the Nightwing, he merely told Dick the legend of the original Kryptonian Nightwing (but that's just modern continuity).  Does anyone know of any point in time post-Crisis that Superman has become Nightwing in Kandor?  I can't think of any.  The classic Kandor returned in Superman 200, but i can't think of any instance in modern times that Superman has used the name Nightwing. -- Exvicious 23:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Superman: The Man of Steel #111 - Neodammerung 21:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Its not about the nightwings, its about the fact that Dick Grayson was Robin for some 40 years before becoming nightwing. - Neodammerung 21:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: You're confusing DC history with real history and arguing a moot point. The split has happened and Nightwing is a true history of the name. CovenantD 14:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Split 

message: For those who believe DC's hype that Tim Drake is the only detective in the Batfamily--read some comics! It's odd though, when Tim was introduced in "A Lonely Place Of Dying," Dick was actually much smarter than Tim, he knew Two-Face was trying to assassinate Batman just by looking at a few random pictures. He also knew who set the lion loose at the circus when Tim was pointed to a completely different person by the evidence. In The New Titans #59 after having taken a leave of absence, Nightwing returns to the team and provides the detective instincts and analysis that allows them to solve the case. In a later arc Dick single-handedly solves the first Wildebeest case, freeing Starfire from prosecution. He also solves the case of "The 6 days of the Scarecrow" in Detective#503. Way back when, come to think of it, in a ACTION one-shot appearance, when Superman needs a master detective to solve a case he turns to--you guessed it Dick Grayson!
If you still need more evidence then please READ: "Who is Donna Troy? The New Teen Titans #38, as the definite proof of why Dick is officially stated as second only to Batman in Detective skills which makes him an unquestioned MASTER. Actually, occasionally he's even topped the man himself, as shown in Batman Year 3 where he solved the case before Batman! Also, In Batman: Dark Victory #12, after being scolded by Bruce, Dick proceeds to one-up him by finding the hidden message in the first hangman clue or when Dick figured out before Batman that Barbara Gordon was Batgirl in BG: Year One.
STILL need more evidence? And you guys call yourselves Dick Grayson fans? please....
63.138.87.171 May 1st (UTC)
:Let's calm down.  I don't think anyone's saying Dick's not a stellar detective, but I don't feel it's above and beyond the call of an encyclopedia to err on the side of caution.  Not everyone's got all their copies of every comic in a readily accessible place, so let's try and work together and be polite.  Of the three Robins, Dick was always known as the near meta physical prodigy acrobat.  Jason was the street tough.  Tim was the detective.  This isn't to say that Jason and Dick can't solve crimes, or Tim always gets his ass kicked in.  It just means that first, they were know as <this>.  Is Dick a 'master' detective?  Maybe. But he's considered second to Batman (which is a HUGE cred!) in a lot of ways, which I believe includes detective.  To quote above "In the DC ENCYLOCPEDIA it's clearly stated "Nightwing's Detective and Martial Art's abilities are second only to Batman""  If we list Batman as a master detective, how do we list Dick, to give Batman top billing and still recognize Dick for his own abilities? (and FYI, anyone who puts Tim as a Master Detective should change that, cause he's good and getting better, but he's not a master, yet).  
: Assume good faith, my friend.  You yell at us for not being fans?  We're trying to work together as a community.  And we do appreciate your help :) -- Ipstenu 01:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it was mentioned by Brother Eye, but skimming makes me wanna take it back and say 'peak human level at ...' -- Ipstenu 21:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dick Grayson=Master Detective