Talk:La Malinche

message: Just wondering if there's any idea as to how old she was when she was initially married. From my understanding she was among a group of converted trophy women offered to Cortez by the conquered natives among other "young women"? I could not find how young they were, though.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.192.132.93 (talk) 19:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: age?

message: I know La Malinche is still an important myth in modern Mexico- could there be a link to important myths in the modern world?  It is a great tool to compare cultures with, the stories a nation keeps telling says a lot about what they themselves value.
: it is important to note that la malinche is not a myth, no one disputes that she was real; however, she has become a  mythical archetype. so, a comparison like you suggest perhaps should be to other real figures who have gone on to become archetypes. uri budnik 03:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  modern myths 

message: I think we ought to mention that the word 'mal' is Spanish for 'bad' or 'evil', and therefore always creates a negative connotation in the mind of a native Spanish speaker, even if the word in question has nothing to do with 'badness' or evil.  The prefix 'mal-' is used the same way as 'mis-' or 'mal-' in English, so when it occurs at the beginning of a word also carries a negative connotation.  That la Malinche's name features the word 'mal' so prominently, and may possibly be a factor in the adherence of this name to this personality, ought to be mentioned as a factor concerning her in the Mexican national consciousness.  However it is interesting to note that there is no such negative impression from that sound in indigneous languages.  Makes me wonder how much the linguistics of the matter has influenced the perception of this historic personage.
Rockero 21:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the name "La Malinche" 

message: The name "Malinche" is explained in page 202 of the book "Historia
 verdadera de la conquista de la nueva España" by Bernal Diaz del 
 Castillo, one of Hernán Cortés' men. 
 
 "Malinche" was not Doña Marina, but Cortés himself. Marina, her Spanish 
 name, was "Malin" for the aboriginals, and "Malinche" meant just 
 something like "Malin's captain".  
 telmo 19:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What telmo says is true. It's on page 121 in my Díaz. Now we'll have to figure out who began using it in reference to Malintzín...--Rockero 07:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Bernal Díaz is not noted for his understanding of the intricacies of the nahuatl language, indeed he seems to have misunderstood most of it and gives many notoriously false etymologies and translations of nahuatl words throughout his account. There are two possible ways that Malinche received her name. One is that her name was malinalli "grass" in nahuatl and that the reason the spaniards gace her the name Marina was the resemblance of this spanish name to her original name. The other possibility is that they just named her randomly Marina. Anyway Since nahuatl has no /r/ sound they quite consistently exchanged r with l in their pronunciations thus making her malina. When speaking to someone respected as she definitely were judging from all accounts it would be unthinkable not to use the honorific suffix -tzin with the name. Nahuatl speakers would thus have called her malintzin. This word was then misheard by spaniards and rendered "malinche" (just like the other suffix -tli was always rendered -te in the hispanicized versions of nahuatl words (e.g. tecolotl > tecolote etc.)). When Bernal Diaz says this it is unfounded or based on a misunderstanding on his part. Maunus 19:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Malinche", according Bernal, was Cortés 

message: I have recently placed this request for addendum in the wrong location of the Mesoamerica project, and have been directed to this talks page.
  
    
  I apologize if I am utilizing inappropriate structure/design or etiquette in my contributions to the talks page, but I
  was unable to find relevant easily-accessible material to guide me.  My specific request/request-for-contribution is some of
  the modern day usage of the name "Malinche."  It is true that she has been referred to as "La Chingada" or the damned or 
  the one that has been violated (in essence, a victem).  But it is also true within many off-shoots of the Mexican population 
  as well as its culture, that there is multiple different meaning.
 
  IMHO, I believe that a 1 or 2 lines on Malinche's role (or usage of her name) in todays Mexican or Mexican-American society 
  or culture, is insufficient given that an entire population of a continent has been affected by her interactions with
  history, and certainly as it continues today.  I have no literary reference to provide, no research to validate my 
  assertions, and certainly am no Mesoamerican scholar.  I however am a Mexican-American born in southern Texas where the
  population there is pre-dominantly hispanic, much as southern Los Angeles is.  While this contribution or assertion may be
  nothing more than folk-lore, it none-the-less can be traced through multiple communities throughout Texas, California, New-
  York, Chicago-Illinois or any other place that Mexicans/Mexican-Americans have chosen to plant themselves.  Among many of
  these communities and people that I have lived with, including aunts, uncles, friends, acquaintances and contacts, the
  name "Malinche" is used as a term in a very colloquial sense.  It's used commonly in North America by many
  Mexican-Americans as a state of being.  Specifically, referencing that a person can be "malinche" if they are
  unusually cruel, mean or sinister.  It has also been used in many occassion to reference a person as a traitor much in
  the same way that Americans and the English use the term "Benedict Arnold" to describe a person as being
  traitorous or treacherous.  I realize that the term "malinchismo" is cited in the "Malinche" section, 
  but its use as an adverb isn't really the only grammatical usage of the name, from my personal experiences.  And yes 
  I have heard and used the term Malinchismo.  This having been said, I conclude with my original disclaimer, that I have 
  no project research, no statistical nor analytic nor descriptive data to reference. I simply have first hand experience
  through interaction with multiple generational usage of the term in various communities throughout the North American
  continent north of the Mexican border.  My hope is that this request for contribution will be reviewed, some portion 
  atleast, be included with the original Malinche" Project Page, and/or that those actively engaged in the project will
  contact me and give me feed-back, disclaim my assertions, educate me in appropriate submissions for request on a talk page
  and just a general "Hello we got your information."
    </div>
  
 Jerry Zambrano
Jerry.zambrano 09:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. You are certainly right that "malinchismo" has been used to refer to people "betray" their indigenous roots. I think it was first used in the thirties when the indigenista movement was being born. I would recommend the book "The Aztec Image in Western Thought" if you want to read a discussion about how the indigenista movement was born in the thirties and how the view of the aztecs and malinche has changed over time. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 12:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addendum to [[Malinche | "The Malinche" or "La Malinche"]] article 

message: I support the merger or alternatively just deleting the "donna malinche" article which is not compettive with the material in this one. The title indeed is wrong, (as most of you probably know "donna" is italian not spanish and not used about Doña Marina)Maunus 19:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call. The Donna Malinche article has been redirected to here now, and agree that there was nothing worth salvaging from that article which is not already covered better here.--cjllw | TALK 08:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger with [[Donna Malinche]]

message: The picture used to illustrate this article is from Lienzo de Tlaxcala and I am fairly sure that the Xaltelolco here is the one near Tlaxcala and not Tlatelolco, which only some sources say was earlier called xaltelolco. The reading of the glyphs also corroborate this interpretation: Citlalpopocatzin is named in other places as a lord of tlaxcalan affiliation, not of Tlatelolcan/Mexica. 
Description of the picture from Lienzo de TlaxcalaMaunus 20:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call, Maunus.  Yes, several online resources did say that Tlatelolco was also (or originally) named Xatelolco, but that link you found definitely points to the Tlaxcala town/village.  I did not even think that that mound of sand would be a glyph!  And I'm going to rush off and update the History of Tlaxcala article with this new information as well.  Thanks,   Madman 03:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Picture

message: how is she mestizo? she is purely indigenious in ancestry. perhaps itd be more appropiate that she was one of the first to know both indigenous languages and spanish, or the first to give birth to mestizos.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.175.83 (talk) 17:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see where in the article it implies she is mestizo. The article does say (in the lead) that her son (by Cortés) may be considered as one of the first mestizos, so it may be just a misreading...?--cjllw ʘ TALK 03:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mestizo? 

message: In order to have a better knoldge of the origin of la Malinche, it is pertinent to read the first letter of Cortez to the monarch of Spain, he said " The indian which I have which is a Tongue who was given to me in Putunchan" (Putunchan=Champoton, Tabasco)there is a note from Francisco Lorenzana saying that "Dona Marina de Viluta (segun Gomara) was from Xalisco taken as slave to Tabasco and from a very "noble" family. If that is true, she was opposed to the Aztecs because her land was conquered by this people. She was just acting according the human nature. 189.169.146.136 (talk) 01:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malinalli o la Malinche 

message: the whole "malinche being cortez's mistress" statement is not an irrefutable fact. some people like Frances Karttunen, believe that cortes sexually abused her which would make her a sex slave, not a mistress.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossovershipper (talk • contribs) 07:34, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: History and references call her Cortes' mistress. It is certain there was a sexual relationship. Your opinion on the balance or morality of that relationship is not relevant. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 08:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  [forwarded from user talk page] "just because one refernce refers to her as a missitress, doesn't make that statment correct. i've seen relieble sources suggest that she was a sexual abuse victim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossovershipper (talk • contribs) 08:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  See WP:RS to read Wikipedia policy on how to deal with contradictory sources. Among others, unless it's the principal focus of the article, "suggest" doesn't usually make it as a reference. At five centuries remove, we're unlikely to suddenly discover new information on the physical interactions between Cortes' and Marina. Much more likely, you have found someone with an agenda who wishes to apply 21st century morality to 16th century relationships - and since consent for her was by definition not freely given, by current standards the relationship with Cortes constituted sexual harassment, actionable by any human resources department (irony intended). That far back, a woman pursued by a man of higher social class had little ability to reject advances - that doesn't mean relationships known as "mistress" didn't exist. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 08:24, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

text: I don't think that is necessarily implied by the word mistress - just extramarital status.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:40, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: At that time, even wives did not always enter the relationship voluntarily.  I see nothing inaccurate about using mistress.  Plazak (talk) 18:50, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  please don't refer to her as cortez's mistress 

message: Greetings. I wonder if the consensus is truly on what the text is currently saying about her origins. Diaz and others appear to point to the Olmecs. Ramires provides a historiographical summary here: " en tierras olutecas." Any ideas? Caballero/Historiador (talk) 16:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: The 1917 film The Woman God Forgot, by Cecil B. DeMille, has Montezuma's daughter Tecza help Cortez capture the Aztec capital in order to save her beloved, a Spanish captain, from human sacrifice by Aztec priests.  I  don't know how close this is to Haggard's novel Montezuma's Daughter, which is already listed in the section on cultural references to La Malinche.  The film is newly out on DVD, from Silent Hall of Fame.  In the intertitles on the DVD, one of Tecza's slaves is called Marina.  In the film this is her Mexican Indian name, not a Spanish name.  She is condemned to be sacrificed, escapes with Tecza's help, seeks safety with the Spanish and advises Cortez.  This appears to be a reference to La Malinche.  In the Wikipedia and IMDB pages on The Woman God Forgot, Olga Grey is listed as playing "Aztec woman."  But in the book American Film Institute Catalog: Feature Films, 1911-1920, Grey is credited as "Marina," so the new DVD's intertitle is probably right.  I suggest adding the film to the article on La Malinche.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC40:D30:C057:206D:F86E:D2B6 (talk) 03:06, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: A slave to Moctezuma's fictional daughter wouldn't be La Malinche even by the standards of Hollywood history. That film has nothing to do with the person in this article. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 03:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  film The Woman God Forgot 

message: I just reverted an uncommented edit changing the name above the headline picture from "Marina" to "Malintzin", with a comment that she's more commonly known by her later name. However, I figure this merits some discussion here.
In my experience, by far the most common name used for her (for reference to WP:COMMONNAME), is La Malinche. However, among those who use a name for her (rather than what has become an epithet), it's more common to see Doña Marina (the prefix denoting aristocracy, comparable to something like "Lady Diana"), rather than Malintzin. Doña Marina is what was used formally in New Spain, in particular in documents. Malintzin appears to have been a nickname used for a period by Nahua during the conquest itself, unclear if that continued once New Spain was formally established. It wasn't her birth name - we don't know what that was, but we know that Malintzin was not it.
So, the question remains - should we change the name above the image (which currently says "Marina", I'd favor making that "Doña Marina") and/or in the description right below (currently says "Malintzin, in an engraving dated 1885.") Note that the image itself  on commons 
here, self-describes as "Donna Marina (La Malinche)", not mentioning Malintzin. I can assert that the "Donna" is incorrect, presumably that's someone anglicizing the ñ . Regards, Tarl N. (discuss) 01:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further on naming 

message: I just reverted an edit of the quote from the Florentine Codex which had changed the spellings of Motecuçoma and Marina. The specific reference in reverting this was the Library of Congress' on-line copy of the codex, image 852 of Volume 3 - see here, left column about half-way down. What it specifically says: 
If someone can sanity check my reading of the not-terribly clear script, we might want to put the actual quote in the article, with an english translation below it. Regards, Tarl N. (discuss) 16:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote from Florentine Codex