Talk:Indie game

message: Do you think we should integrate information in the community section into the bulk of the article? Currently, the information in the Community section is quite sparse and an independent section isn't necessary. Any thoughts on this?
Picklebobdogflog (talk) 23:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Community Section

message: Does this not mean like 2500 and later? Like if your reading this in the holy year of the lord 3412, and you read "Latter half of the 2000s" one will probably assume somewhere between 2500 and 3000. I feel quite confident that one is meant to say between 2005 and 2010, or one is deliberately trying to be vague because one has no real data concerning the issue.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.159.134.165 (talk) 07:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying "the latter half of the 2000s" is implicitly the decade based on how that standard works in most English works; if we meant the century, we'd have used "21st century", or "2nd millennium" if that was the case.  --MASEM (t) 14:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Latter half of the 2000s

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I know the term wasn't used in the 80s, but I am sure that half of the video games made in the 80s were games developed by independent video game developers - mostly individuals or friends. Or are you saying a game Jeff Minter made and published himself in the 80s is not an indie game, but a game he made and published himself in the 2010s suddenly is?
ZhuLien (talk) 22:08, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources, such as WP:VG/RS, do not retroactively apply the "indie" label to older games. Regardless if the term applies, we have no sources to support it. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 12:44, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

text: Different time. The term "Indie" didn't really exist as a distinct category back then, but neither did "Triple-A" - as you say, most games back then were made by small teams with small budgets, including the ones backed by big publishers like Nintendo. It was only with the emergence of Triple-A and the general "institutionalization" of video gaming into the big budget, Hollywood-style system we have today that indie games became distinct from the rest of the industry. Retroactively calling self-published games from the 80's and 90's "indie" lacks context of what the industry was like at the time. 82.16.49.231 (talk) 19:03, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: No indy games in the 80s?

message: The sentence at the end of the intro paragraph listing an random assortment of games that made a profit seems unnecessary. It is unconnected from the rest of the introduction and seems out of place, nor does it really inform the reader of anything, other than providing an incomplete list of a few games. This could either be cut or expanded to be more like "While most indie games used to be small projects distributed for free, in recent years indie game development has become more commercial as notable titles such as *example*, *example* and *example* have been financial hits." I think that a more in depth paragraph about successful games could also be added to the Industry section as well. Jelephant (talk) 17:48, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Financially Successful 

message: Should cuphead be included in the list of critically acclaimed indie games that spurred on the "genre" in the lead. The others I understand for their significance in the genre (even Celeste, since it was nominated for many game of the year awards included at the game awards), but Cuphead feels out of place. Not that it wasn't critically acclaimed, but in terms of its significance. 
PixelMage (talk) 03:10, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuphead in the lead? 

message: I suggest merging Independent video game development into Indie game, as about 75% of the info on the former is duplicated in essence (not in content, there is content mergers to be done) on the Indie game page. And the indie game article is short enough to accommodate that. --Masem (t) 22:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think they should be merged.-Splinemath (talk) 02:15, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I would ask why you think that - what is unique in terms of general content on the "development" page from the current "indie game" page. --Masem (t) 02:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: One problem with the second paragraph in the lead is that it provides a very abbreviated history outside the history section. Not only that but the content excludes indie games during the early 2000s with massive popularity, including Cave Story, Corpse Party, Yume Nikki, and the Touhou Project.-Splinemath (talk) 13:42, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore there are no mentions of the Humble Indie Bundle or Itch.io, two massively important parts of indie gaming.-Splinemath (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

text: You have to provide sources first for this. And not add it to lead, but in the main prose. Then if it's a significant part of content, lead can summarize it. The current examples were only 3 originally before more and more were being added because "they are also important". —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 13:56, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

text: Your examples are cult games, not million selling milestone titles. However, I don't see why Humble Indie Bundle or Itch.io couldn't be added to the article somewhere. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:51, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no article for cult games beyond List of cult video games and a redirect to Cult following. Should there be? -Splinemath (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The concept of cult video games is not much different from other cult works in other media, so there's really no need for a special article on it beyond the above two. --Masem (t) 15:35, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Games in the Lead 

message: Are indie games a primarily English language phenomenon? What about Dōjin soft? What distinguishes English-language indie games and Indie game development in English-speaking countries from Japanese-language games and games from other parts of the world that exist outside of the Anglosphere?-Splinemath (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Dojin should be mentioned, and I got some sources for that, but it should be noted that there is a sufficient distinction here between the terms dojin and indie. --Masem (t) 16:00, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indie games across the globes 

message: First it sold extremely well according to the team cherry blogpost (https://www.teamcherry.com.au/blog/hollow-knight-silksong-revealed#:~:text=a%20game%20bought%20and%20played%20by%20over%202.8%20million%20people!) Hollow Knight sold 2.8 million in February 2019 and Shovel Knight which is in the lede sold 2.65 million  lesser than Hollow Knight also according to steam Undertale another game in the lede has sold between 2.5 million to 5 million copies so no real number but the average is like wat 3 million to 3.7 million what I am basically saying Hollow Knight has sold similar amount of copies to two game in the lede so, I dont know why it shouldn't be there Mr Kris 420 (talk) 18:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: As has been explained before to you, its not just about sales. There are indie games that have well-surpassed the ones we have listed, for example. What we want for the lede examples are those that are considered as synonymous with what an "indie game" is, and not necessary the best-selling or most-popular examples. This is not trying to say Hollow Knight isn't a successful game, but compared to those listed, its simply lacking the same sense of connection to "indie game" as the others. --Masem (t) 18:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, please tell me how does a game become synonymous with an indie game Mr Kris 420 (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: We look for sources that are broadly discussing indie games (ideally outside of gaming press) and see what examples they generally include if they do. --Masem (t) 18:31, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then Hollow Knight should be included if you go to say YouTube or Reddit and search for Top 10 indie games almost 99% of the time Hollow Knight is included if you go to IGN even Hollow Knight is included not just as one of the best indie games but one of the best PC games (source:https://in.ign.com/dota-2/134506/feature/the-25-best-pc-games-to-play-right-now) so clearly it meets your requirements. Also techrader also has Hollow Knight on their list of best indie games. Masem, you still haven't given me a concrete reason to why Hollow Knight shouldn't be in the lede it meets your both requirements it sold extremely well and is mainly considered one of best indie games of all time on many internet signs Mr Kris 420 (talk) 09:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're still missing the point about being synonymous with "indie games", which doesn't necessary mean "best" or "best-selling". --Masem (t) 12:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then what does it synonymous with "indie games" you said it should be talked about heavily and on the internet Hollow Knight is talked about heavily on the internet way more than braid or Fez both in the lede but I do understand why they are in there as both them were one of the first indie gamesMr Kris 420 (talk) 13:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

text: This isn't an exhaustive list of games, it's just a few examples. We don't need to include any specific games. It's already 7 items and way more than necessary because no context is given for them. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 10:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Weak support: I would be in slight favor of replacing Fez and Braid with Celeste and Hollow Knight, although I agree that this change is of little importance and is not needed. I DO however support the creation of List of indie games to complement List of indie game developers. I will begin working on it in draft space. Scaledish! Talkish? Statish. 15:12, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Draft:List of indie games Scaledish! Talkish? Statish. 15:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollow Knight should be added to the lede 

message: Cave Story and the Touhou Project series were both huge successes developed by one man, making them THE definition of an independent game. They are talked about later in the "Other regions" section, so why not list them up front? Maybe with the existing games there it could say "Examples of successful Western indie games..." followed by "examples of successful Eastern indie games...".
Cave Story is notable for being heavily influential in fuelling the independent scene of the late 2000s and 2010s. (https://www.destructoid.com/cave-story-creator-on-wanting-to-quit-working-with-publishers/ https://www.denofgeek.com/games/why-cave-story-is-a-timeless-indie-classic/ https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/930951982575226880?lang=en https://retronauts.com/article/1411/15-years-ago-cave-story-inspired-a-generation https://www.indiegamewebsite.com/2019/12/28/the-100-best-indie-pc-games/5/ "one of the most well-known indie PC games of all time")
A massive internet subculture has formed around the Touhou Project series throughout the 2000s and 2010s, and is still booming. If there is one game from Touhou that is listed, then that would be Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, since it has not only sold the most copies in the series (Szczepaniak, John. The Untold History of Japanese Video Game Developers. p. 373.) is responsible for the series' boom and has been listed as most popular in the series every year since 2016 (https://toho-vote.info/result16/result_list_title.php), and has also been awarded best of year accolades (https://jp.ign.com/rekidai-goty/26424/feature/goty2002) - translated "the level design, music, and presentation's charm make the game a masterpiece that would go on to become one of the most popular Japanese games of all time.". It is easy to attribute it to a dōjin soft game but it's not like it is not also referred to an indie game in sources too (https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/the-story-behind-the-touhou-sensation/). Could they be included somehow? Kettleonwater (talk) 17:04, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I can reasonably support Cave Story as there's a wealth of sources that list it among top games as well as being one of the first recognized inide titles, but Touhou not so much in the same caliber as the other examples. --Masem (t) 17:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In my short-sightedness I didn't realise Cave Story was already there, but I still think Touhou Project has its reasons, and separating them from the others would exhibit their differences as both Cave Story and Touhou Project were released in the early 2000s compared to all the other notable Western indie games. Kettleonwater (talk) 17:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Masem added it just now. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 17:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

text: Yeah, just adding to say that. --Masem (t) 17:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind. Still, I think Touhou is worth an inclusion. Kettleonwater (talk) 17:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: If nothing else, Touhou is a MAJOR influence on Undertale, and a minor influence on Cuphead, which are both present in the header. Kettleonwater (talk) 17:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

text: I'll say what I said before: there are already too many examples. But Cave Story is a notable example, if mainly through popularity depending on which source you ask. It's all wishy washy in the end since sources don't directly compare any of these games. But I don't have a real solution as to how pick the examples. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 17:21, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The ones we're working are the three featured in Indie Game,  and then others frequently sited in introductory language from other sources as representatives of indie games. This also now gives a good range over the last 20-ish years (from 2004 w/ Cave Story) --Masem (t) 17:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding Cave Story and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil/the Touhou Project series to the introductory header as notable examples of Eastern indie games 

message: I believe that Hotline Miami should be added to the lead as a successful indie game, as well as being mentioned somewhere in the history section. It is considered one of the best video games of all time (sources to support that are there), has been attributed to the success of the publisher Devolver Digital as its breakout and most important title, has inspired several different video games (ex. Katana Zero and Mother Russia Bleeds), and indirectly inspired a scene in John Wick: Chapter 4 and was featured as an easter egg in The Last of Us Part II. It also sold 1.5 million units. I believe that because of the achievements and influence of this game, it should be included in the lead list, and given some sort of mention in the history section, where it currently has no mention to be seen.
Sources for all of these claims:  (already used for sales numbers) NegativeMP1 (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of Hotline Miami to the lead and history sections 

message: — Assignment last updated by Stevesuny (talk) 20:29, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Digital Media and Information in Society

message: Just a small thing, but both games in the Ori series have sold 2M+ units, and are indie games made by and indie studio. Is there some reason it's not on the chart?
Oh, and Rivals of Aether has sold over a million, which Ori (and Shovel Knight) have appeared in. 130.218.6.181 (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Ori" games sales?