Talk:Ancient Hawaii

message: I do not have a great deal of knowledge about this topic, but it seems to me that Polynesian triangle deserves an article in its own right, rather than just being a redirect to ancient Hawaii. At the very least, it could repeat the material here, which would be of interest to, say, somebody who came to it from New Zealand. - DavidWBrooks 18:14, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Archaeological studies (Kirch) have pushed back the estimated settlement of Hawaii to no later than 400 A.D., and perhaps earlier.  Pronounciations of common Maori words indicate that the early settlers originated in the southern islands of the Marquesas and that later settlers came from either Tahiti or the northern group of the Marquesas, but most likely from both.  Voyaging between Polynesian islands was quite common until about the 13th century.
In the 9th to the 15th century, The Majapahit Empire of India under its Emperor-Maharaja Pamarwasa established its sattelite Empire called the Sri Vigaya. Inclusive of the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and perhaps Indonesia; Hawaii, Carolines Islands and Guam became part of the Sri Vigaya Sattelite Empire of the Majapahit towards the end of 12th century. After the death of Maharaja Pamarwasa. From the 13th to 14th century, Rulers of the territorial Kingdoms who were in consanguinity related thru marriages with the said Emperor's daughters and some nieces, such as the daughter Sri Eskander married to a Vigaya.Arab Ruler in Seri-Brunei and as of another daughter married to Prince Lakan Acuna Ulrijal Bolkiah Tagean of Manila-Philippines, these said rulers established themselves into strings of Sultanates known as Maharlika, Muslim National Archipelago. King Kamehameha of Havvaii or Hawaii was then referred to as the "Careful King" which denote the name Kamehameha. The latter being kinships with the Sulu Ruler. In-fact, all the territorial Kingdoms of Mahrlika, its Rulers were all in consanguinity-Kinship related either by blood or by affinity. During the Spanish colonization of the Philippines, King Luisong Tagean (or Tallano as referred to by Italian merchant traders) consorted with the Queen os Spain of the naming of Maharlika as Philipinas under King Philip-II of Spain. The King asked the help of the British, wherein the latter defeated the Spanish Government in Manila; and out of respect to the Kings proprietary Rights of the Kingdom, Britain issued the Royal Protocol Decree 01-4 as Original Certificate of Title for the Kingdom. In 1898, during the Treaty of Paris whereby Spain sold the Phlippines to America for 20 million dollars in gold coins, Spain issued a "Titulo De Compra" of OCT 01-4 in favor of Prince Lakan Acuna Ulrijal Bolkiah Tagean, wherein the latter's uncle-Don Benito Tagean Tallano handed the said amount in gold coins to Spain. Dring the American occupation, the latter enacted U.S. ACT no. 496 on October 3, 1904 under the Torrens System, the OCT 01-4 for the said Prince and Princes/heirs of interest to their forefathers. And in 193, enacted U.S. ACT no.2258 affirming ownership of the Philippines to said Heirs of interest. Under the Philippine republic, litigation ensued at several court hearings till i January 19, 1976 , a Final and Executory Court decision was in favor of the said Princes/ heirs of interest. The decision was appealed by the Government and Resolution is still pending. One Prince Heir of interest to His Highness forefathers, lives in Ohau, Hawaii who is a descendant of Prince Lakan Acuna Ulrijal Bolkiah Tagean with kinship to the 15th century Brunei Sultan Hasan Bolkiah. This heir is of Philippine born with Polynesian-Chinese and Arab-Malay ancestry, HRH. Yang Di-Pertuan Paduka Ahmad Carpenter Yu Arpa-V, a Tribal Plenipotentiary Sovereign Minister for all Tribes in the former Maharlika Kingdo  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.210.35.6 (talk) 16:00, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re the settling of Hawaii 

message: I removed the reference to Fiji as a major Polynesian culture. Fiji is not Polynesian - it is Melanesian. Kahuroa 21:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is debatable because, culturally, Fijians are Polynesian, while they may display a more Proto-Polynesian linguistic classification if not "Proto-West Fijian-Polynesian" classification. -Ano-User (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiji reference 

message: Jere, I think you've got the militant Hawaiian attitude towards the two-migration theory completely wrong. In my online dealings with those folks, they have strongly supported the two-migration theory. They believe that Pa'ao brought everything that was WRONG with Hawaiian culture, everything that the missionaries and Western visitors disliked, such as human sacrifice and authoritarianism. Before Pa'ao, Hawaiian culture was egalitarian, kind, supportive, PERFECT. This is the utopia to which we should return, not the distorted culture imposed by Pa'ao. I even argued with one woman who was sure that Pa'ao was a haole, and that therefore this proved that haoles were responsible for everything that had ever gone wrong in Hawai'i. Comments? Zora 01:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zora I have no idea what type of people you have been dealing with but isolating yourself on the net doesn't constitute exposure to these, as in your belief that "militant Hawaiian attitude" (aka any Hawaiian that disputes you or tend to not be passive as you'd want them to be) display negativity towards the 2 migration theory.  In fact, my own PERSONAL encounter and interaction with other kanaka 'oiwi shows the opposite.  But then again, I'm not from the island where you are at where many of these kanaka don't live the traditional lifestyle. 66.215.18.34 02:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Interesting.  I haven't had any interaction like that before, although granted, the particular subset of "militants" I've engaged with hasn't been very broad.  I guess maybe the alternative view, that is to say, the two-migration theory is preferred because the real roots ("indigenous" status) can be traced back to the pre-Pa'ao people, and the interlopers post-Pa'ao (I'm assuming this is primarily a critique against the ali'i class) represent those who founded the illegal Kingdom of Hawaii, and gave it away to haoles (either by action or inaction).  I suppose around any particular controversey you can have people from both sides on all sides :).  Perhaps we can work in both possible POVs? I'd love to hear more takes on why it is politically charged - I certainly get the feeling that much of the scholarship in the area ends up being affected by predispositions, and certain scholars (Vinton Kirch, for example) are alternately praised and despised as they follow the evidence and change their conclusions.  --JereKrischel 01:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I heartily agree with you - which is I guess why I always saw the Hawaiian Revolution as merely a conflict between elites in a land that was still filled with have-nots (of all races).  Anyway, not to banter about my personal politics, but if you thought it was useful, I think we might be able to add a section regarding some of the various views on the 1 or 2 migration issue, and how it is percieved politically.  I wasn't aware of the perspective you mentioned, but it certainly merits inclusion in any discussion...perhaps though we're getting into the area of original research?  I can really never tell where the line is drawn there, but I'll chew on it a bit and see if I can think of something to put in, if anything.  Thanks again for the lesson in alternate perspectives! --JereKrischel 05:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two-migration theories 

message: I reverted some edits by an anon who apparently had strong feelings about the old Hawaiian gods. Among other things, this editor was sure that Ku was the same thing as Kukailimoku. Well, that's arguable ... there were different aspects of Ku. Can one aspect be considered to encompass all of Ku? Or were all the Kus different gods? Issues to be debated, not given a two-second answer as Ku AKA Kukailimoku (which is not encyclopedic language). Zora 09:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon's edits 

message: I visited this article for the first time in a long time and I was struck by the ponderous stodgy prose. Also, some generalizations were wrong or inexact. I rewrote part of the article, which took me close to two hours, and then got too tired to continue. I have a bad habit of trying to do too much, and failing, but I hope to finish rewriting the article soon. More citations and a longer list of references are essential. This article as it stands is just a sloppy sketch of the subject. Sigh. Zora 07:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great work Zora!  Your edits so far are great improvements! --JereKrischel 20:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Partial rewrite 

message: From the current article, "However, there is one puzzling artifact on the island of Kauaʻi, one that has never been satisfactorily explained. Running alongside the Waimea River is an ancient aqueduct known as the "Menehune ditch." This channel once brought water from the Waimea River to irrigate taro fields. The rocks were shaped into rectangular bricks and carefully fitted together — a method of stonework requiring immense labor, and not typical of Hawaiian rockwork. This ditch is currently believed to have been constructed before Captain Cook's first visit."
There is a widely held misconception (alluded to in this article, and perpetuated in numerous publications and internet pages) that the Menehunes (or at least the ancient Hawaiians) built the ditch that currently exists.  That is not the case.  The ancient irrigation system was almost completely destroyed and rebuilt by sugar plantations in the early 1900's.  The often photographed water tunnel was bored during that time, and the fitted stones leading up to it were also built then.  Documented in "A Cultural Resource Reconnaissance of the Waimea River Flood Control Study Area, Kauai, Hawaii" by Pauline King Joerger and Charles F. Streck Jr. which records:
"The area has been changed considerably since the description of Vancouver. In the 1890s a "horse road" was built "on the bank of the Pee Kauai watercourse at Kiki-a-`Ola . . . " Soon afterwards, a government road replaced the "horse road." Sugar plantation construction also changed the aqueduct. Around the turn of the century Waimea Plantation built an irrigation ditch and used a tunnel through the cliff to carry water from the inland area to the lowlands. No evidence of a wall around the cliff face remained. In 1924, more plantation improvement to ditch and road changed the area and destroyed more of the ancient Hawaiian ditch."
"Ditch stones from the ancient site have also been said to have been used in and around Waimea. Menehune Ditch stones are said to have been used in the building of the Protestant Church, called the Foreign church, in the Kekaha Plantation Mill and the Waimea Ice works. Other stones were used by a Waimea stone cutter for tombstones, by one of Waimea's sheriffs for a stone wall in front of his home, and the like. Little of the old watercourse is left now; the water to irrigate the high land on the other side of the cliff from the river now flows through a tunnel bored by a sugar company. Much of the old ditch is covered by a road."
To say that the Menehune Ditch has "has never been satisfactorily explained" contributes to the misconception. DitchDigger 16:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Menehune Ditch

message: Under the "Caste System" article it compares Hawaii to India by the fact both had caste systems. However instead of telling us about the ranks of Hawaii, it tells us of the Indian ones.
71.194.63.161 (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That section could use a lot of work...and sources.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Caste System

message: The source cited for the text in the Kapu section is a self-identified Christian publication. Given the historic fact of the Christian conversion of the Native Hawaiian religion, is there a more neutral source that can be used to describe the Kapu system? For example, the reference to human sacrifice under Kapu is a serious claim and it seems like an unassailable source would be preferable.
Alohahi (talk) 04:58, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kapu system 

message: From the article, moved here for the moment:
There is no mention yet in the article about this. I am also not sure the summary of the publication is done accurately and within Wikipedia guidelines. We need more references for this. The document itself cannot be used to sourced the claim that "A study was done in 2010...". This seems to have been placed into the lede with undue weight. It is legitimate but, how much weight to give it depends on what the publication itself is claiming and what the academic consensus is on the theory.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:45, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  High precision radiocarbon Dating 

message: Substituted at 07:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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