Talk:Mythology/Archive 1

message: Perhaps the issue as been beaten to death now, but would there be any objections to using J. Campbell's definition of mythology (one of several he provides in his work) as "an organization of images metaphoric of experience, action, and fulfillment of the human spirit in the field of a given culture at a given time."  This definition has the advantage that it subsumes religion as a subordinate category of myth, that is as the application of mythology within a narrow field of human experience and action. With respect to three of the world's great religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, they insist on the historicity of their myths, in other words, on the actuality of their metaphors in the fields of time and space.
Bruno
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Europe sports a Fjort mythology.  What's a Fjort?  Ain't in my Swedish dictionary.  -- IHCOYC 02:22, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mythology 

message: Should this page contain a brief mention of modern constructed mythologies? I am thinking mainly of the mythology of Middle-Earth (that is told in The Silmarillion) created by J.R.R.Tolkien, though there are others. --Ingolemo 11:39, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Constructed Mythologies? 

message: It seems to me that the exploration of what a myth is not should be in the Myth article rather than here.  Can anyone explain why we should not move that bit? —Theo  (Talk) 16:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. By the definition with which DreamGuy does not agree, yes, myths and mythologies are essentially the same kind of thing, but that the latter refers to groups of the former. But "the study of myths" is a different subject and deserving of a different article to "myths", as the process of studying them would not be appropriate to an article about myths themselves, I think. elvenscout742 22:01, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-myths

message: I am thinking we ought to just redirect to Mythology. This is rapidly turning into a duplicate of it. :-) --Dmerrill
:I started the Myth page and I have no objection as long as we preserve (merge) any worthwhile content.
:I agree but prefer that Mythology redirect to Myth, as mythology, strictly, refers to writings of myth, while a "myth" title allows one to discuss and define myth itself, comment on the general sociology of myth, etc., with a subsection "mythology" (writings about myth). --Peter Kirby 22:32, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect and merge the article with [[Mythology]]? 

message: I have heard that Campbell, a mythologist (is that the correct word? I'm not sure) referred to Star Wars as a "modern myth" where "myth" is used in the legend/tradition sense. This contradicts the idea that a myth doesn't have a specific author. I don't know, however, if Campbell's view is supported by other scientists. Does anyone have information on this? --KamikazeArchon
:I don't think "no specific author" is a defining characteristic of myths (in the first sense), just a common attribute.  Wouldn't you say the names of Santa's reindeer, for example, are an importasnt part of the American myth of Santa Claus, even though they were created by Clement Moore?  --LDC
Good point. --KA
: I agree too.  I think we might identify a category of literary myths.  These are works of fiction which, although they have a known author, embody a narrative of sufficient power and/or intuitively grasped symbolic significance that they are much more widely disseminated throughout a culture than merely among those who have read them.  I draw this idea from A N Wilson who makes the point in his introduction to Bram Stoker's Dracula citing Mallory's Death of Arthur.  The test might be to imagine that all printed copies of the original were destroyed after the author's death.  If it is plausible that people would value the story enough to resurrect it, then it would qualify as a literary myth.  The Lord of the Rings and War and Peace are possible further examples. --Alan Peakall 14:00 Oct 25, 2002 (UTC)
Is it really necessary for a myth to be believed to be true by those who tell it?  I would have thought that the question of literal truth is unimportant; the "deep explanatory significance" would be what matters. Michael Hardy 23:15, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joseph(?) Campbell and Star Wars 

message: Persian mythology is one of the oldest and richest mythologies of the world. In my opinion it should be added to the template: "Articles related to mythology". 
You can read more about it here.
--Mani1 01:21, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Persian mythology]]

message: From folklorists' perspectives, the term myth has very defined criteria, including the fact that myths are sacred and believed as true.  There were some sloppy uses of terms like "legend" and "secular mythology" in this article that I have tried to alter.  I need to go back and compare this to the mythology entry.  There's much more discussion to be added here, not only about different genres of myths, but about schools of thought.  Campbell is highly controversial, as are Freud and Jung who are not even mentioned here (and myth played a big role in psychoanalysis and the early days of dream analysis in psychoanalytic thought).  The other thing I want to echo in the discussion from above here, is that all sacred traditions have myths.  The major religions would use the word pejoratively, as in "they [usually colonized peoples] have their myths, we [usually colonizing peoples] have our religion," but the processes of sacred traditions and narrative in that sense are the same whether cultures are "preliterate" (as the article used to read) or complex.  That's why the variable about how much people believe in the truth of their sacred narratives becomes critical, and threatening when one attacks another tradition by dismissing it as a mere myth.
Also, I added links to folklore and folkloristics, and removed social psychology.  I've studied both, and there's no study of myth in social psychology, although there was (and may still be) a great deal in other subfields of psychology, such as clinical and analytical.  Bruxism 23:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of latest tweaks 

message: Do myths need to be belelieved by the people telling the myth, the people listening to the myth, or both? Cites please. Hipocrite 18:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Believed to be true 

message: I would think it is a bit unfair to claim the "most" or "nearly all" dictionaries actively support the rather narrow idea that a "myth" is essentially just a "non-truth". Oxford, who produce "the world's most trusted dictionaries", gives that definition as secondary, and the primary one is "a traditional story concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events". Webster Online says first "a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon" and gives as a minor, secondary sub-definition of the second definition "an unfounded or false notion". I think if we said that some dictionaries make reference to this rather colloquial notion that a myth is basically a false belief, it would be acceptible. I do not want to become involved in yet another edit war over the definition of the word "myth[ology]", so I will see what others think here before making the necessary changes. elvenscout742 19:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictionaries' attitude to "myth" 

message: I have changed the definition of mythology in the lead section. My sources are as follows:
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica article Mythology:
:In the distant past, however, before any sciences existed, the beginnings of the world and of society were explained by mythology. /…/ How comprehensive a developed mythology could become was given written expression in Greece by Hesiod. 
According to the MSN Encarta article Mythology:
:Mythology, the body of myths of a particular culture, and the study and interpretation of such myths. /…/ The term mythology might include all traditional tales, from the creation stories of ancient Egypt to the sagas of Icelandic literature to the American folktale of Paul Bunyan. 
According to H. R. Ellis Davidson in Gods and Myths of Northern Europe:
:A mythology is the comment of one particular age or civilization on the mysteries of human existence and human mind …
According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
:Mythology 1. a. A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, deities, ancestors, and heroes. b. A body of myths associated with an event, individual, or institution: "A new mythology, essential to the . . . American funeral rite, has grown up" (Jessica Mitford). 2. The field of scholarship dealing with the systematic collection and study of myths. 
According to the Merriam-Webster:
:Mythology: 1 : an allegorical narrative 2 : a body of myths : as a : the myths dealing with the gods, demigods, and legendary heroes of a particular people b : mythos 2 <cold war mythology> 3 : a branch of knowledge that deals with myth 
--Salleman 08:59, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, good. I approve wholeheartedly of this change. elvenscout742 23:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  lead section