Talk:Friend of Dorothy

message: I've never actually heard/seen "Friend of Dorothy" before but "Friend of Ellen" (Ellen DeGeneris, gay comic/talk show host) is the modern expression in the US.  Should have a prominent mention in this article! 66.105.218.8 (talk) 06:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you're correct in thinking of Dorothy Dean, although your memory for dates is a bit off. Here's a New Yorker article that may help: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1995/04/24/friends-of-dorothy Wyvern (talk) 05:06, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ellen! 

message: (from me, a newish Wikipedian:) I don't know who wrote the above but of late I've been thinking it probably started with Dorothy Parker who was said to welcome gay men to her legendary parties in her Harlem apartment(?), but that the slang term made more sense to gays nationally to have something to do with "Dorothy" from Oz. I'm hoping the contributor mentioning a boarding house in Kansas could elaborate. (The coincidence with Kansas of The Wizard of Oz, [just for starters], makes me question that.) I haven't been able to find the reference mentioned above on Snopes.com. There is another possibility methinks: could it have had to do with Billy Tipton?, (born Dorothy), since it has been written that his/her fellow jazz performers knew she was a female as far back as 1935. Can we get this sorted out? It could be of national importance. ;-) dowser 17:04, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard this origin before... Kyaa the Catlord 22:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ...or consider this: 

message: I haven't seen anything either on the article page or discussion page that looks like a contradiction to me. I'm changing the tag from a contradiction claim to an accuracy dispute. Gbm85 21:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction? 

message: I removed the dispute tag after rephrasing the paragraph containing various claims to the term's origin.  The term's origins are unknown.  Various theories abound.  No one knows for sure.  If a citation can be given for an origin then we have a different situation.  --SFDan 13:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute tag removed 

message: Hey all, i bet we can find the nuances or even the true etymolgy but that yellow brick road will be paved with good references. If anyone has solid books, articles or ? to help prove any aspects it would be good to add them to the mix. Benjiboi 18:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recall reading something about it in Out of the Past: Gay And Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present (, according to Amazon), but it's been a while and I don't have it on hand. Might be a source for anyone who has it handy (or I could get it out of the library). Kolindigo 04:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Another source saying it was in reference to gay men who worked with Judy Garland on the set of Oz and as actors. Benjiboi 04:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I have source listing them side-by-side. Gay-2-Zee: A Dictionary of Sex, Subtext, and the Sublime, By Donald F. Reuter Benjiboi 04:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

text: On the topic of cruise ships, I will add from direct experience (in March, 2013), that at least on Norwegian Cruise Lines, there were nightly events (every night) in the printed programs denoted as "GLBT Informal Gathering". They didn't use code phrases such as FOD, so it seems that progress is being made… I'm not sure if/how that information can be worked into the article, because direct eyewitness experience seems like it would fall under the category of "original research", but I will leave that up to more senior Wikipedians to make the call. Just wanted to report what I had seen. PatrickSalsbury (talk) 21:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources/references 

message: Apparently Oscar Wilde had a similar set of friends. Benjiboi 04:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No Benjiboi--that would be Oscar Madison, not Oscar Wilde. Young Queens these days....:-D Jeffpw (talk) 10:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It could also be Oscar the Grouch loosely based on Oscar Madison but I think the references will have to speak truth to reality there as well. Benjiboi 22:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also: Friend of Oscar 

message: :On another note did anyone dig through google books and google scholar already? Benjiboi 16:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked Jstor for any academic articles, and LexisNexis for newspaper articles. I don't like Google books because it blanks out the very pages I want to see. --Moni3 (talk) 17:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I won't speculate what you're using it for but it does seem to have some proprietary issues with giving away the cow with the milk. I've found that if I have to see an additional page(s) to the one(s) already seen that I empty my web browser cache and search on an exact phrase from the page right before the one I want. It doesn't always work but often it does. Benjiboi 17:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting idea, but it really challenges Wikipedia's definition of "verifiablity". If most of the sources claim that Judy Garland is the "Friend Of Dorothy",  then it is a more popular belief with more "verifiable" sources. But if the interview with the Gay soldier shows how this "gay slang" came about through quoting Dorothy Parker during WWII, then it describes how the term came about, as the "Friends of Dorothy" appear to be the people who spoke this slang among themselves. So this one source is not proof, but it appears to have more weight than the many "Judy Garland" sources, which are actually less proof since they don't really say how the slang or term (FOD) actually developed. Even though they may meet Wikipedia's definition of verifiable. I tend to believe that the term came from these men, it just makes more sense. It is a shame if more sources for this info are hard to come by, it does appear to be an unwritten part of history. Thanks for this clip, it was really interesting. EyePhoenix (talk) 08:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: google books?

message: I took this picture today if someone wants to add it to the article. APK PRAISE JEEBUS 00:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: This talk page is very entertaining but seems to be very low on verifiable facts.
Randy Schilts, Conduct unbecoming: Gays and lesbians in the U.S. military (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1993). Page 387: 'This code term had originated in the 1940s and 1950s and referred to Judy Garland's character in the film The Wizard of Oz. Ever since, gay men had identified themselves as "friends of Dorothy".'
Ken Gage in collaboration with Moyra Evans, Gayle: The language of kinks and queens, a history and dictionary of gay language in South Africa (Houghton, South Africa: Jacana Media, 2003). Page 10: 'This term "Friends of Dorothy" is widespread in gay communities around the world and derives from Dorothy Gale in the, [sic] 1939 movie The Wizard of Oz (which turned Dorothy into a gay icon).'
L. Frank Baum, The wonderful world of Oz (New York: Penguin Books, 1998 [1900, 1910, 1920]). Page 311 [Glinda of Oz]: 'Glinda found the Scarecrow playing croquet with Trot and Betsy Bobbin, two little girls who lived at the palace under Ozma's protection and were great friends of Dorothy and much loved by all the Oz people.'
Luca Prono, Encyclopedia of gay and lesbian popular culture (Westport, Conn.: Greenwood Press, 2008). Page 53: 'One of the ways in which pre-Stonewall gay men referred to themselves to let other homosexuals know they were part of the same group, that of being "friends of Dorothy," precisely built upon a camp reading of such mainstream cultural product as MGM's The Wizard of Oz. '
und so weiter (there must be thousands). 
Shilts was a serious historian; I will attempt to get his book and see if he footnotes this reference to somewhere else. I gather that the Berube book does not attribute the phrase, indeed does not appear to mention Dorothy Parker at all according to Google Books. The Hitchens book listed as a source does talk about Parker at some length but does not appear to attribute this phrase as referring to her.
Donald F. Reuter, Gay-2-zee: A dictionary of sex, subtext, and the sublime (New York: St. Martin's Press, 2006). Page 81: '"friend of Dorothy, a": phrase meaning someone is gay, and rooted in: 1) our fondness for Judy Garland, the iconic entertainer who played Dorothy Gale in the classic film musical The Wizard of Oz with her trio of sexless male buddies; 2) our association to and admiration for sharp-tongued writer Dorothy Parker, whose famous "vicious circle" of pals included gay men; and 3) the need for gay men, during much of the twentieth century, to speak in code (for fear of being found out).'
I think the paragraphs in question are badly written at a minimum. 216.64.147.98 (talk) 00:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about some references? 

message: * 1904 The Marvelous Land of Oz/The Land of Oz, p. 30 (other p. 16, p. 35-36): "Did you say a Tin Woodman rules the Winkies?" "Yes; he was one of those who helped Dorothy to destroy the Wicked Witch of the West, and the Winkies were so grateful that they invented him to become their ruler, - just as the people of the Emerald City invented the Scarecrow to rule them." "Dear me!" said Jack. "I'm getting confused with all this history. Who is the Scarecrow?" “Another friend of Dorothy's," replied Tip. “And who is Dorothy?" “She was a girl that came here from Kansas, a place in the big, outside World. She got blown to the Land of Oz by a cyclone, and while she was here the Scarecrow and the Tin Woodman accompanied her on her travels." "An where is she now?" inquired the Pumpkinhead. "Glinda the Goot, who rules the Quadlings, sent her homo again," said the boy. 
* 1907 Ozma of Oz, p. 124 (Reilly and Lee Company) [Dorothy & Billina] Soon they came to the Cowardly Lion and the Hungry Tiger to whom the girl introduced the Yellow Hen. // "Glad to meet any friend of Dorothy's," said the Lion, politely. "To judge by your present appearance, you are not a coward, as I am." , 
* 1908 Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz, p. 214 (Reilly & Britton Company): "I'm glad of that," said Jim [horse]; "for I, also, have a conscience, and it tells me not to crush in your skull with a blow of my powerful hoof." // If he thought to frighten the striped beast by such language he was mistaken. The Tiger seemed to smile, and winked one eye slowly. // "You have a good conscience, friend Horse," it said, "and if you attend to its teachings it will do much to protect you from harm. Some day I will let you try to crush in my skull, and afterward you will know more about tigers than you do now." // "Any friend of Dorothy," remarked the Cowardly Lion, "must be our friend, as well. So let us cease this talk of skull crushing and converse upon more pleasant subjects. Have you breakfasted, Sir Horse?" "Not yet," replied Jim.
* 1915 The Scarecrow of Oz: A great friend of Dorothy and Ozma seemed to be a machine man called Tik-Tok, who ran down several times during the evening and had to be wound up again by someone before he could move or speak.
* 1920 Glinda of Oz: Glinda found the Scarecrow playing croquet with Trot and Betsy Bobbin, two little girls who lived at the palace under Ozma's protection and were great friends of Dorothy and much loved by all the Oz people.
--Franz (Fg68at) de:Talk 19:56, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Friend of Dorothy" at Baum 

message: Interestingly, the phrase is not given an entry in the 1972 gay lexicon published both as The Queen's Vernacular and Gay Talk by Bruce Rogers. He does index "Dorothy" as "vocative used before a lecture, comparable to the 'Buster' of a New York cab driver," and "Dorothy and Toto" ("gay boy and his dog" and two other definitions.)--Larrybob (talk) 00:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay Talk / The Queen's Vernacular 

message: The sentence reads "Richard Dyer argues that, after her artistic success in, but commercial failure of A Star Is Born (1954) 'Garland's work and life tells a story of survival, and of someone trying to assert some form of control in a world that was set up to destroy her.'"
Here are the issues I can see with this sentence:
* There needs to be a comma after "(1954)", as well as one after "of" to preserve the structure of "after her artistic success in, but commercial failure of, A Star Is Born"
* If you add that comma and then leave it as is, there are too many commas and it gets confusing - dashes instead
** Possibly doesn't even need dashes? not sure
* "after her artistic success in, but commercial failure of" is not parallel structure - it's not *her* commercial failure, it's the movie's
** How important is the idea that it was *her* artistic success and not that of the movie? the sentence would have to be restructured in order to preserve that idea
With that in mind, here is the edited sentence: "Richard Dyer argues that, after the artistic success – but commercial failure – of A Star Is Born (1954), 'Garland's work and life tells a story of survival, and of someone trying to assert some form of control in a world that was set up to destroy her.'"
As I said above, I'm not 100% sure if it needs the dashes at all, and I definitely don't know enough about the article to judge whether the distinction between her artistic success and the movie's is enough to justify restructuring the sentence, so I would appreciate opinions. Thanks. ssk109 (talk) 23:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Messy sentence - not sure how to fix Suggestion 

message: There is no evidence for the claim made in the second sentence of the article, that "The phrase dates back to at least World War II". The linked reference, to the "Homomasculinity" essay, does not show that the phrase was in use at that era; it sort of implies that it's a 1950s phrase, but only implies this, and does not even provide evidence. Neither the OED, Green's Dictionary of Slang, nor the Historical Dictionary of American Slang have evidence before 1972. Accordingly, I am removing this sentence. If there is any genuine evidence for the dating, someone can provide it; if not, we could say "The phrase is said to date back to...", assuming that there is a citable and trustworthy source for even this claim.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.242.214 (talk) 15:54, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dating of this expression