Talk:Hackamore

message: Hackamore can also refer to:
*Halter
Rollins (1922, page 151) says Mere leading halters, whether in the form of the Eastern stable halter with a short rope attached or else evolved out of various turns and knots in a longer and continuous piece of line, often were, in the loose language of the Range, termed hackamores.
Rollins, Philip A. (1922) The Cowboy: His Character, Equipment and His Part in the Development of the West, C. Scribner's sons, 353 pages.
--Una Smith (talk) 15:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there is not consensus.  This is a long, stable article that has been in wikipedia for two years, and the etymology of the term is sourced and widely understood.  You are now on the verge of edit warring by attacking this article, and I am concerned that it is in retaliation for the problems we have been having on your bitless bridle one.  Your tags are acceptable, but your threat to destroy this article is not.  I will consider any attempt at moving, renaming or making this article into a redirect to be vandalism and report it as such.  I will improve the article as needed, but it takes time  Montanabw(talk) 05:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never heard of a "California hackamore," so would like a photo to see what you are talking about, maybe it has a different name here (or maybe it is what someone calls the traditional Bosal hackamore).  The "English Hackmore" is also new terminology to me, but based on the edits I think you made, it appears to be the English riding version of a mechanical hackamore -- in fact, surfing web sites, I think I came across another definition that flat-out said the English Hackamore was like a western mechanical hackamore, only with leather noseband and chin strap, plus shorter shanks -- essentially a mild mechanical hackamore.  (And no, I didn't bookmark it, should have) The other possibility is that it's a jumping cavesson, but I've only seen that called a jumping cavesson or a jumping hackamore. Montanabw(talk) 20:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, let me be clear:  "Hackamore" is the English language version of "Jaquima"   OED calls it a "corruption," but that's what we English-speakers do to a lot of words, that doesn't mean that the word isn't a legitimate derivation.  "Buckaroo" from Vaquero is a similar corruption/derivation; both mean a cowboy of sorts, particularly one of the California tradition.  Montanabw(talk) 20:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another disambig

message: See Talk:Bitless_bridle#Settle_this_calmly and let's settle this.  — Rlevse • Talk •  11:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Gladly, but how much source material is required before the point is accepted aand how much time will be given to produce it?  And how do we tone down the problems with personalities that have clearly cranked up?  I feel like this little article is on trial here and yet I am not hearing comprehensive reasons for the attacks, just assorted material taken out of context to validate a POV that I really can't even sort out any more, except that it seems to have something to do with questioning everything I write because it was my edit (?)  I would most sincerely hope that is not the case, but I am really tired of snarky comments and what appear to be retaliatory edits.  I hope it is just fatigue that has me thinking that there is not an assumption of good faith here.  Sigh... Montanabw(talk) 20:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Rlevse. No one is saying we have to put the article to bed yet, just tone down the comments. ==AeronM (talk) 22:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh, I was not the person who started all this, OK?  Montanabw(talk) 01:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hackamore vs bitless bridle

message: One method of reconstructing the history of a class of man-made object is to look at the current range of variation of that object worldwide.  To look at the roots of the jaquima in western North America, I think it helps to look at halters in use now in South America and in Europe.  See for example this web storefront. --Una Smith (talk) 15:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is an Argentine braided nylon rope halter and an Argentine rawhide halter, both described in the vendor catalog as "bosal" style.  Both have what I was taught to call a fiador, not a fiador knot. --Una Smith (talk) 15:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also say fiador, but wanted to link to the wiki article, so there is some discrepancy.  Not caring deeply about that one.  Montanabw(talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 06:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Roots

message: I am nominating this photo for the hackamore page (hee hee) --AeronM (talk) 16:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: I put it into mechanical hackamore, as that is what it is!  We'll see how long it lasts! (Agree with the LOL)  Montanabw(talk) 23:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: New Photo

message: I will be adding a new section to the wikipedia entry. I think that it is important to know and understand how to use the hackamore. The Wikipedia page offers a general overview of a hackamore and the different types of hackamores, but there is not a lot of info on how it is actually used. I have found useful information on another website that I am using to provide a reference for my new section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollandta (talk • contribs) 
:Be mindful of WP:NOTHOWTO. - MrOllie (talk) 03:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a new section: Proper Use of a Hackamore 

message: I appreciate @Montanabw new edits, but I disagree in removing some things. For example, it’s is highly important to clarify that in Spain and Latin America, “jáquima” is a simple halter for tethering and leading animals. It has always been defined as such. There is no evidence of the Spanish using a “jáquima” or “hackamore” for training horses. The Spanish, specifically the Andalusians, have been using a serrated cavesson (serreta, media caña) since the 1500’s. While it’s likely that the “hackamore” or “jaquima” descend from the serreta, the hackamore is different, both, in its construction and in the way that it’s used by the Mexicans. The Spaniards use the serreta for basic training, and introduce the bit for the more advanced training. While the Charros used their “jáquima” not only for the horse’s basic training, but also for the more advanced education. Only after everything had been learned, did they introduce the bit. As I said, the bit was only a formality. Also, it’s important to mention that most historical evidence show that “Californio” vaqueros very rarely used the “hackamore”, introducing the bit from the beginning. There’s only one mention of the hackamore being used by the Californios, but it should be mentioned that their methods were harsh, completely different from how it’s being told today. Nortekman (talk) 13:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You got WAYYYYYYY too much into the weeds. This is an article about the modern devices called hackamores, by whatever name, it was derived most closely from Spanish and Mexican horsemanship, and it is one of many variants on the heavy cavesson used for training purposes that dates back to ancient Persia.  A serrated iron noseband was an extreme (and cruel) device and not all that common. Your own sources are not entirely complete as to training methodology, which has wide regional variations, some quite harsh, others quite refined. Some of the sources you used were also of dubious reliability, particularly given the anti-Spanish attitudes of many early US writers, who exaggerated the "cruelty" of the Mexican and Californiano horsemen.  I would instead refer you to more modern scholarship. We also have a separate article on just the bosal.  Montanabw(talk) 16:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I would’ve agreed with you on believing those sources as being “anti-Spanish” or “anti-Mexican” coming from Anglo-Saxon American sources, maybe trying to demonize them to justify the conquest, but we also have Mexican sources describing the harsh methods used by the Mexicans on the northern frontier. Also, it should be noted that those harsh methods were once used in central and southern Mexico, as those methods were the first, rudimentary methods used in Mexico for training horses. Being that the northern territories were far and isolated from the rest of Mexico, such methods continued to be used well into the 1800’s. For example, tying the horse to a pole or tree and leaving it with out food or water for days. Also, the cavesson was introduced to Andalusia in the 1540’s, according to Don Pedro Fernández de Andrada’s “Libro de la Gineta de España” (1599). According to Andrada, ever since the cavesson was introduced, horsemanship in southern Spain ceased to exist. Before the introduction of the cavesson, the Andalusians used Gineta (Moorish-Arab) methods, using nothing but bridles to train their horses. Nortekman (talk) 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Edits