Talk:Drow

message: The origins of the "Drow" preceed Dungeons & Dragons, probably by hundreds of years.  Not only do we have the "Trow" of the Scottish Orkney Isle in folklore, but also the "Drow" of Shetland Isle.  It is probably also related to the terms "Dokkaelfar" (Norse, meaning "Dark Elf", as opposed to "Svartaelfar" which means "Black Elf") and "Du-Sith" (Gaelic, meaning "Black Elf").
Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (1970) states that: "Drow, n., [scot.] A tiny elf which lived in caves and forged magick metal work."
So there's a reference to the Drow three years prior to the publication of Dungeons & Dragons and seven years prior to the inclusion of "the Drow" in that particular role-playing game.
I've heard rumors that TSR/Wizards/Hasbro/Whatever it is this month owns a copyright on the Drow and that Gary Gygax claimed they were his own intellectual property.  However, the above should indicate that the Drow are not the sole domain of Dungeons & Dragons, that they are no living person's (or company's) intellectual property, and that any copyright on this matter is invalid.
In any event, the Drow are most certainly NOT just "a species of elf in the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game", and should probably not have been introduced as such.
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Please sign your comments. Also, this information should probably only be on the talk page and not the main article, since it isnt in encyclopedic form. I agree with you, however, that the drow should not be referred to as simply a D&D race if there is evidence that the concept existed before D&D; however, you need to present this information in a manner that is consistent with the rest of the article. DryGrain 19:12, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: I came here through random article and added some links. However, I noticed that you have "The creation of the fictional drow..." and "...the Drow are recast...". So which is correct, capital or not? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Drow" should only be capitalized at the beginning of sentences, or when referring to the Drow language. For nearly all other purposes, "drow" should be used. Robbstrd 18:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, and "drow" should also be capitalized when part of a title, such as "Vault of the Drow."Robbstrd 18:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drow or drow

message: Would it be possible for this page to include a list of novels in which the drow play a major role? The only ones I know of are the Salvatore's Drizzt books and War of the Spider Queen, as well as Elaine Cunningham's Windwalker trilogy. Are there any others?
:That's probably it.  ⇒  JarlaxleArtemis 01:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of works drow appear in

message: I wanted to make a much needed correction. Drow may be a Scots word, and not a Gaelic one as there is no "w" in Gaelic. I think a much closer translation might be Dreàgh/Dreàdh if it was Gaelic. This in turn might sound similar to "cow." If anything it is most likely Orkney in origin but it don't believe they use a "w" either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.96.236 (talk • contribs) .
I've seen somewhere that the etymology of "drow" is that it indeed comes from the "drow"/"trow" in Orkney, but that this in turn comes from the Norse "draugr" (a type of undead) and not from "troll". Does anyone know anything more about this? - Gustav.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.255.200.42 (talk) 23:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: I've seen drow spelled drowe before; does anyone know which is correct? Why are there two different spellings, where did they come from? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.0.32.190 (talk • contribs) .
:I've never seen it spelled "drowe" before, at least not in the context of the dark elves. You may have seen a misprint.--Robbstrd 00:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is definitely not authoritative, but I recall chatting with a guy who took part in a LARP called Labyrinth or something like that. I believe he was referring to the dark elves of that LARP as "drowe". At the time, it struck me as just using fancy spelling to be different, as in "magick", "vampyre", or "Ærth." Self-edit: The LARP was called Labyrinthe. StaffanBaloo 09:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Most likely a way to be 'fancy'. Since this is the section on D&D, we should probably go by what the books say. Disinclination 22:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling?

message: The drow, as they appear in fantasy fiction and games, were created by Gary Gygax, and appeared in the 1979 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons module, Hall of the Fire Giant King and They made their first statistical appearance in G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King (later G1-2-3 Against the Giants) (1978) by Gary Gygax.
These two sentences appear to be repeating one another.
They were first mentioned in the Dungeons & Dragons game in the 1st Edition 1977 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual under "Elf." and The first D&D manual that the drow appeared in was the original Fiend Folio.
These two sentences appear to be contradictory. If they appeared in the Monster Manual, then Fiend Folio cannot be their first appearance in a manual. I presume the author intended to say Fiend Folio was the first time they had a fully fleshed out entry, as they were probably not much more than a footnote in the Monster Manual's elf entry. Should this be changed to reflect this?
(147.10.140.186 03:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification of first appearances ... 

message: There should be written, that Drows have no beard in Dungeons & Dragons and that they can have beard in Everquest. If it is true. I have draw an image of Drow. But he has got beard and there are conventionalized snakes. Should I upload the image? And for what article? Maybe it is an half-elf or especially half-Drow, because of his dusky grey skin according to information but I have no information about beard. There are no images of such old half-drows or Drows. I have found only one image of half-elf with beard . --Snek01 22:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe there's an official D&D stance on drow, or even elven, facial hair, so I don't see a need to address it in this article.--Robbstrd 01:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is. Drow of the Underdark says that roughly 1 in 10 male drow are capable of growing facial hair. --84.66.21.81 (talk) 20:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of Drow 

message: Could we integrate this section into the reference section?--Robbstrd 19:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of works in which drow play a major role

message: Just out of curiosity, by what authority can we say that, "Their society, as a whole, is completely nonviable." Skiguy330 23:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read Drow of the Underdark. Essentially, they murder each other so often that they should really have murdered themselves out of existance ages ago. Only the spider queen prevents the drow society collapsing in on itself. --84.66.21.81 (talk) 20:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonviable? 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Plot & Poison Guidebook to Drow.jpg

message: Not in 3rd edition that I have noticed. They merely have daylight blindness in 3.5e and 3e. --84.66.21.81 (talk) 20:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drow weapons melt in sunlight? 

message: As of "Ascendancy Of The Last" by Lisa Smedman, Lolth is pretty much the only drow deity that currently exists. Eilistraee and her followers destroyed Vhaeraun and Selvetarm, Kiaransalee's name was wiped from the memory of her followers, effectively destroying her, as well. Ghaunadaur is more or less out of commission, as he has been trapped in an extraplanar infinite maze. Finally, Eilistraee herself was killed by a servant of Lolth. 
Also, just prior to her destruction, certain followers of Eilistraee worked a form of High Magic that cleansed a "demonic taint" from a subset of drow. Specifically, these were drow "redeemed" by Eilistraee and drow who were descended from Miyeritar. 4th Edition will likely clarify this, but this subset is now consider to be "dark elves" and not "drow." Also, the final events of Ascendancy Of The Last demonstrated that Corellon Larethian is reconciled to these dark elves, and that Lolth has no dominion over them.ChipEverwood (talk) 15:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forgotten Realms Drow section needs updating 

message: Hello! :)
This article has been selected for possible inclusion on the Wikipedia 0.7 DVD release. If there is anything you can do to help this article (fact check for sources and citations, check grammar and spelling, providing creator commentaries, finding useful quotes in interviews and product reviews, detailing publication history, rewriting in-universe text to out-of-universe text, and general cleanup here and there) now would be the time!
Also, if you'd like to nominate more articles to be selected for this project, or just wish to discuss the release in general, please see the WikiProject D&D talk page for more details. :) BOZ (talk) 16:09, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  D&D articles for Wikipedia 0.7 

message: I think step #1, aside from finding refs, is to move the in-universe text into the publication history. Thus, you'd have "In the Monster Manual, drow are first described as...", "In the GDQ series, drow are described as...", "In the Fiend Folio, drow are said to be...", "In Unearthed Arcana, drow are presented as a player character race, which allows them to...", etc.
Then, we could get into their role in the novels, both Gygax's and Greenwood's, and how the drow societies are presented there, and all that. It was these depictions (particularly Greenwood's) that set the stage, taking them from being just a race in some 
For 2E, we can expand the MC2 entry, reprinted in Monstrous Manual, which greatly expanded the in-game info for drow; Drow of the Underdark and Complete Book of Elves did more of the same.
For 3E and 4E, not sure how much we need to say there, other than noting changes and such. Much of what I originally put into the publication history is essentially dross; it may not need to be removed, but it could probably stand to be reorganized.
By moving the in-universe info into the publication history (all a part of my long ago plan), we can remove or at least sharply reduce the in-universe sections, while retaining all the important info. Also, we give the info a timeline, showing where certain concepts were introduced or when things were altered. All the D&D fictional element articles should be written this way, and one day they eventually will be, but it will take some work. BOZ (talk) 03:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've started work on this. I have the MM, FF, and UA handy so I will do something about those. I also have a lot of the 2E and 3E books in question and can get to them if no one else can do it sooner. I have most of the original modules as well, but I will have to do some digging for them. Anyone else can feel free to beat me to it. ;) BOZ (talk) 04:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

text: It's late so I'm going to bed, but I got a start. I'll likely revisit FF and UA after we get some info from the GDQ modules in there. :) Probably not tomorrow, but hopefully soon I will come back to working on this one. BOZ (talk) 04:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Oh, and one last note! The modules were easier to find than I figured... I have all of the original modules except for Q1, and any of the combinations or the supermodule. All in due time, as I say, unless someone beats me to it. :) BOZ (talk) 05:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome! I think that we can really make this work. –Drilnoth (T • C) 12:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

text: My thoughts on reorging is that we should merge a bunch of the sections.  Just prosify the various facts about each edition and put them in one PH, maybe broken up by whatever. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 06:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically what I was thinking - so then, so far so good? Or did you mean something else? BOZ (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good so far! I hope to add in more info on reception, drow abilities and use in gameplay, etc., in the near future. –Drilnoth (T • C) 15:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Looks great! Sorry about the delays on my end... that seems to be happening with most everything on wiki. There's just too much to do! :) Anyway, I think that I should be able to put quite a bit of work into the sections on 3rd edition and the OGL sometime this week. –Drilnoth (T • C) 02:10, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's OK. :) The pub history now contains most of the information otherwise presented in the Ecology and Abilities sections. I suspect much of the Society section comes from the novels, so it would be good if we can find someone who can build that part from scratch. Most of the novels involved are mentioned in other places in the article, which ought to be merged into this section; in fact, I think I'll get started on that now. BOZ (talk) 02:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Sounds good. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I got it there. :) Would do more, but I'm getting sleepy. ;) I want to keep the description section in publication order as well, because that avoids the "but now in the current edition they're like this, not like that!" tendency to replace information with the most current thing. Stating what is found source by source keeps perspective of what came when; how many drow fans even know that the drow were that well detailed already in 1978? :) All the fundamentals of what makes a drow a drow were there over 30 years ago, thanks to Gary Gygax (and how many drow fans think that Greenwood or Salvatore created the drow and gave them their most notable aspects?) BOZ (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganizing 

message: I've been rethinking my approach. While I really like the way the publication history section is looking so far, it is getting ridiculously bloated. I have some free time, so in a little while I'm going to start separating the actual descriptions of the drow back out into a separate section. Let me know what you think after I do it; I can always revert if it's not so great. BOZ (talk) 23:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I got it there. :) Would do more, but I'm getting sleepy. ;) I want to keep the description section in publication order as well, because that avoids the "but now in the current edition they're like this, not like that!" tendency to replace information with the most current thing. Stating what is found source by source keeps perspective of what came when; how many drow fans even know that the drow were that well detailed already in 1978? :) All the fundamentals of what makes a drow a drow were there over 30 years ago, thanks to Gary Gygax (and how many drow fans think that Greenwood or Salvatore created the drow and gave them their most notable aspects?) BOZ (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: New direction

message: In the source book "Races of Renown. Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to the Drow" there is a more detailed Drow pantheon, with the Spider Queen (a former destiny goddess) instead of Lolth at the head, and eight demigods known as the Claws serving under her. Do these deserve a mention?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumorifox (talk • contribs) 15:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe in a separate section, since this does not affect the WotC canon. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 16:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems fair, putting a separate section for "unoffical" information like that in Races of Renown, Pathfinder, Tome of Horrors, etc. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 17:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

text: "Open gaming" (in the publication history) might work. Otherwise, I'd create a similarly named section to put it in. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 17:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like a good solution, if it's kept in an out-of-universe perspective. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 19:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is going to sound a little stupid, but how is it best kept in an out-of-universe aspect? Once I know, I can add some info, seeing as I have the book. Thanks! Kumorifox (talk) 19:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just keep the information brief, and introduce it with something like "In Green Ronin Publishing's Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to the Drow, the..." –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 19:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I meant, yes.  I don't have the book myself, but for example you could say "In Green Ronin Publishing's Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to the Drow, the Such-and-Such prestige class is introduced, as well as 12 new spells for a drow wizard, with new options for player characters such as..." 204.153.84.10 (talk) 22:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claws of the Spider Queen? 

message: I was wondering if a proper citation would be needed to the claim that the 3.5 'Drow of the Underdark' was inspired by presence the Green Ronin 'Plot and Poison' as I would assume that the book is merely an update of the 2nd ed. book of the same name. 87.113.23.105 (talk) 16:10, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we would need a citation for that. 24.148.0.83 (talk) 17:41, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to the Drow inspiration for Drow of the Underdark 

message: Thanks for putting effort into this very detailed article about something that does not exist. Society owes you a debt. 188.26.49.8 (talk) 08:08, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Another satisfied customer! 24.148.0.83 (talk) 11:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanks, editors of this article 

message: Vhaeraun is linked several times, but it is just a redirection back to Drow. In case anyone wonders why my intended edit is going to remove all those links. Cryptarch (talk) 08:09, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing circular links 

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thread_title:  External links modified