Talk:Jacob Frank

message: Those interested in Jakob Frank may waht to consider the discussion of his ideas and his influence in Poland/Lithuania in Czeslaw Miloz's 'The Land of Ulro (Farrar,Strauss, Giroux, 1981). There, Milosz discusses his great predecessor Mickiewicz's theories of metempsychosis and there (possible) derivation from Miskiewicz's mother, who was a Frankist.Rangoni (talk) 22:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Jacob Franks conversion to Islam whatever his reason was is not mentioned in this article, there are some sources that do state Jacob Frank did appear to convert to Islam, the first link is to a reliable unbiased source, the other two links try to disprove Jacob Frank and may possibly be biased:
http://www.languages.utah.edu/kabbalah/protected/dicta_frank_lenowitz.pdf
http://www.shema.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28
http://www.porges.net/Frankists.html
--Taz Manchester 00:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the sources you cite (granted, the 2nd source is to a broken link) indicate that Frank converted to Islam, nor that he ever even flirted with the idea.  Is it possible you're confusing him with Shabtai Tzvi?  Tomertalk 10:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jacob Franks Conversion To Islam

message: The tenor of much of this article seems inappropriate for Wikipedia. The article uses regularly highly POV phrases like "monstrous" and "immoral" to describe sexual behavior that is likely normal to much of Wikipedia's audience, and comes from a perspective many Wikipedia readers would find strange, perhaps archaic, perhaps offensive. The article should describe facts from a neutral perspective, describing Frankist beliefs and practices, and Orthodox Jews' condemnation of them, with equal matter-of-factness. --Shirahadasha 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: In Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism she says on pages 30-31 that "When [Jacob Frank] returned to his native Poland, he formed an underground sect whose members observed Jewish laws in public but in secret indulged in forbidden sexual practices. When he was excommunicated in 1756, Frank converted first to Islam (during a visit to Turkey) and then to Catholicism, taking his flock with him. Frank did not simply cast off the restrictions of the Torah, but positively embraced immorality. In his view, the Torah was not merely outmoded but dangerous and useless. The commandments were the laws of death and must be discarded. Sin and shamelessness were the only ways to achieve redemption and to find God." The footnote attributes this to Gershom Scholem's "Redemption Through Sin," in The Messianic Idea in Judaism. However, this is so contrary to what is presently in the article that I really don't know how to work it in. CClio333 (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly wouldn't take Armstrong at face value, when she is explicitly referring to Scholem. If I wanted to change anything here I would work directly from Scholem. From my acquaintance with Scholem what is currently in the entry is not as far off as you seem to indicate. But direct quotes from Scholem on this subject should definitely be acceptable in my view. warshytalk 11:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Conversion to Islam, Refutation of the Torah, etc.

message: I would like to remind that unitil 1772 there was no such a city like Lemberg or Lviv. This city belonged to Polish Crown. Also German or Ukrainian name after a First Partioton of Poland shouldn't be changeg to another than Polish, similarly like with other Polish cities in ex. Crakow, Warsaw or Lublin. (Majan (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your objection seems to be based on an objection to the use of the name Lemberg.  Your statements make little sense.  The city was certainly always Lwów in Polish, but the idea you seem to be asserting, i.e., that it was only ever known as such, is erroneous.  I don't know that it should be referred to necessarily as Lemberg, but that is certainly how most Jews referred to it prior to WWII (and guess what, that's pretty important, given the subject of the article).  Your inclusion of the examples of Crakow (Kraków), Warsaw (Warszawa), and Lublin (uh..., well, Lublin!), make your statements allthemore confusing.  What, exactly, is the point you're trying to make here?  Tomertalk 09:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lwów - Polish city 

message: The article seems to imply, especially in the intro, that Frank was excommunicated from Judaism. However, Judaism does not have nor does it believe in excommunication. If you're mom was a Jew, you're a Jew, and nothing can change that. Even if you convert to another religion, you can still be welcomed back at any time and are considered a Jew in apostasy. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.149.222 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Cherem.  -- Zsero (talk) 23:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excommunicated? 

message: Chopin, Mickiewicz and Słowacki's Frankist origins is nothing else than an urbane legend ascribing Frankism to anyone whose name is Krzyżanowski or Majewski. There is no other evidence whatsoever of their Frankism. Słowacki's mother was Armenian, Chopin's mother came from an ancient noble family, and Mickiewicz's origins were thought to be many things, simply he was famous enough for people to claim him for themselves. The theory that his mother was a Muslim Tatar seems the most probable.
The only famous Frankist, whose origins are documented, was Maria Szymanowska - Mickiewicz's mother-in-law - yet the article doesn't mention her at all.
Mieses was a zionist, and his theory was nothing else than ascribing Jewishness to anyone with certain names - a pracice common among various nationalists, but it's disproven by a number of biographers and historians. Sometimes Krzyżanowski is not a Frankist. Sometimes he's simply a descendant from the owners of Krzyżanów.--94.75.121.6 (talk) 23:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether Mies was of was not a Zionist is irrelevant here. His tendencies as well, even if you provide a reliable source attesting to his tendencies. Galassi (talk) 02:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Czeslaw Milosz also stated that Adam M. was a frankist descendent, and he is a highly respected source.Galassi (talk) 02:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Milosz did not. Read Mickiewicz talk page. Actually, read all of those people articles. What you're doing here is quoting rumours as facts. And yes, it is relevant that a zionist author claimed that half of Poles were Frankists. It's simply an absurd assertion, based on people's names alone, without any serious research done. He claimed that the last Polish King was a Frankist too. As wonderfully ridiculous as that! --94.75.121.6 (talk) 04:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

text: It appears that you have already brought that to the Chopin article and it was reverted: , , . Why not keep it to the people who were Frankists and considered themselves Frankists instead of alleging someone's beliefs and origins without any serious proof?--94.75.121.6 (talk) 04:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't do original research here, we simply report what scholars say. therefore you shouldn't delete citations wholesale.Galassi (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But you don't report what scholars say. No serious scholar agrees with those assertions. Your Russian source says what a tsarist antisemite said. Hardly a proof of anything. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE --85.222.86.36 (talk) 01:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:   Frederic Chopin, Adam Mickiewicz and Juliusz Slowacki 

message: Failed for WPPOLAND due to insufficient inline references. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class review

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "the messianic movement of Sabbatai Zevi, the religious mysticism that followed violent persecution and socioeconomic upheavals among the Jews of Poland and Ruthenia."
*Sabbatai Zevi lived in Turkey, he had no connection to Poland.
*Sabbatai Zevi doesn't inform about his followers, Frakism is listed as See also together with many subjects.
*Which persecutions? You probably don't mean After the death of the bishop, the Sabbateans were subjected to severe persecution by the rabbis.
*Unsourced.Xx236 (talk) 08:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The lead ? 

message: There are documents that Mickiewicz' mother had Tatar roots. Xx236 (talk) 08:30, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mickiewicz' mother had Tatar roots 

message: Where is it from and when is it from? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:22, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info-less image