Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles

message: MOS:MUHAMMAD recommends the text , but this is a sea of blue: it is unclear that there are multiple links and unclear where clicking on each part of the text will take you. Can we not just have , keeping the most specific link? — Bilorv (talk) 09:43, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sea of blue recommendation 

message: In articles about Islam on Wikipedia, in both titles and text bodies, there is a widespread inconsistency in the use of suffixes forming the nouns of systems of belief, doctrines and movements: some occurrences use the Arabic suffix -iyya, while some others use the Western suffix "-ism", and still others use the noun-adjective rather than the noun (e.g. Hanafi school instead of Hanafism), giving the impression of an unsystematic and confusing approach to the subject. Given that almost all Islamic -iyyas, i.e. Islamic branches, currents, doctrines, sects, schools and orders, are also often rendered with "-ism" (e.g. Ashariyya = "Asharism", Zaydiyya = "Zaydism", Ismailiyya = "Ismailism"), I suggest to adopt a consistent style and switch to "-ism" in every case, given that this is the English Wikipedia. It would also be better to avoid diacritics (i.e. not "Ash'arism" but "Asharism"; not "Isma'ilism" but "Ismailism"), since they are unuseful and overcomplicating for English readers. Æo (talk) 12:54, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I 100% agree. You should write the above into the  Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles.Tiny Particle (talk) 09:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

text: The presence or absence of diacritics is determined by WP:MOSAR, which differs for the letters 'ain and hamza. More  broadly, I have been actively involved in ironing out some of these inconsistencies, and there is definitely already some internal logic governing why madhhabs (law schools) are listed as "X school", but theological branches (philosophical or ideological schools) are "isms". Iskandar323 (talk) 09:40, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Tiny Particle, @Iskandar323: Thank you for your your opinions and apologies for the delayed reply. I have added a section about this matter to the Islam MoS, as requested. Here. Please check and give your contribution if needed. Æo (talk) 15:41, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: A discussion should definitely be raised on the guideline talk page first. Guideline pages are fairly formal (less so than policy, but more so than essays), and so any major changes to them require substantive discussion beforehand. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

text: The regular WP practice is to let this type of thing be decided by most common usage in reliable sources (RS). It's true that most of the time RS will more commonly use -ism terms rather than -iyya terms, but in some specific cases where the reverse might be true, having a rule enforcing the use of -ism could turn out to be problematic. My impression is that adding this to MOS:ISLAM would be a form of wp:instruction creep, and that it's better to change instances of -iyya to -ism on the basis of a perusal of RS (and taking the opportunity to actually improve the articles in the process!).It's also important to note that Asharism is extremely uncommon in RS (312 results on GS, and many of those are not RS), while Ash'arism without doubt is the common name (1560 results on GS, mostly top-quality sources). The case of Ismailism vs Isma'ilism is less extreme, with 3160 results for the former vs 1390 results for the latter (at least on GS Ismailism clearly wins, though Isma'ilism by no means is as marginal as Asharism, and in my personal experience actually is more common in the best sources). Anyways, comparing both cases shows that RS in some cases adopt contrary conventions than in others. It would be very ill-advised to force one convention on all terms, thereby creating monstrosities such as Asharism. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 16:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree with what @Apaugasma has said above. ─ The Aafī (talk) 17:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This gets very complicated, we sometimes need -iyya instead of -ism. Many Muslim sources also use -iyya instead of -ism, and homogenizing this means having to change everything -iyya to -ism (am I right?). Although this sounds mixed, I do not agree that the whole -iyya should be shifted to -ism because -iyya seems to be more popular in the Muslim world than -ism, which tends to be used only in the West. Then, doesn't Wikipedia use a more commonly found naming standard? ▪︎ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 06:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: When you say "more popular in the Muslim world", do you mean in Muslim English-language sources? Don't forget we should be steered by English-language usage in sources that meet the WP:RS criteria. DeCausa (talk) 06:57, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Bearing in mind that en.wiki  defers to English-language sources, as a general rule I have found that -iyya endings tend to be better preserved in academic literature, where strict transliterations find more favor, while -isms are favored by sources aimed at accessibility. What this in effect means is that more mainstream topics tend to get -ism-ified, while more obscure topics see a greater prevalence of -iyya usage. However, imposing any kind of rule moderating this would likely be to go against WP:COMMONNAME in many instances, and so would be disempowered, since WP:COMMONNAME is policy and style guides are style guides, so in cases of dispute between policy and style guide, policy would still win. More generally, it's mainly just a WP:AINTBROKE-type issue. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree if this matter is returned to WP:COMMONNAME, it looks better than laying down a rule that seems to go against it. In my opinion, the word 'inconsistency' is inappropriate, because their usages (-iyya and -ism) are equally widely used. ▪︎ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 02:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency in the use of "-iyya" and "-ism" in articles about Islam