Talk:Chris Benoit/Archive 2

message: In the Personal life, where it says Benoit's Crossface was borrowed from Dean Malenko, this is actually true because during the Benoit tribute last night, Malenko even said himself that he allowed Benoit to borrow it as he was trying to find a submission move he could use as a finisher. I'm not sure how that would be cited, but Malenko's words during the tribute does prove it. vDub 12:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Benoit also talked about it on the Hard Knocks DVD, to the best of my recollection. Garistotle 12:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Crippler Crossface

message: If you look through the history of Beniot's page, you can see an edit over 18 hours before his death was announced saying he missed Sunday night's event because of the rumored death of his wife.  I have not read any legit sources that suggest anyone knew about his wife's death prior to his, but that edit looks somewhat cryptic now.  How could an editor have known that his wife was dead 18 hours before the story broke that his family was dead? Wesleymullins 04:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah that is kind of really odd... Shows as the 10:01 edit for me, but ehh, still was before the 2:30 discovery of the bodies.  Very weird.  Also to view it click here -- Shatterzer0 04:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't make up crap, you don't have CheckUser, thus you don't have access to see editors IP addresses, and second IP addresses have not been editing the article for a while now. — Moe ε 05:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do apologize, I am fairly new here (I have had an account for awhile, never got into much though). I went to the link above: here and saw the IP address. I pasted it into a free service: here and it said it came from Stamford. I am sorry if I did something wrong here, but I thought it was note-worthy. Trvr3307 05:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you've done nothing wrong, just it's not noteworthy. This talk is for improving the article. Thank you! — Moe ε 05:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: It was re-added by someone w/ an Australian IP a few minutes after it was reverted, so probably spoofed and nothing to do w/ WWE/Stamford.  Of course, it's still suspicious, just differently so.  --David Bixenspan 05:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No, it's not coming from Stanford, and no, CheckUser isn't going to be performed for our own little investigation. — Moe ε 05:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not?  It's certainly warranted even though it's most likely a sad coincidence.  --David Bixenspan 05:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And we still might want to give Office a heads up on this since the posts appear to have happened before Chris' death.  Rklawton 05:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rubbish. It's not what this is for. Period. If this is what you came to Wikipedia to do, then I suggest you not stay. — Moe ε 05:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree, someone should look into it. And I think Moe should calm down, you seem like a angry person, just relax, dont have a heart attack..BigCoop 05:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded.  Indeed, it appears that he is opposed to even giving Office a heads up.  Rklawton 05:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: IP Address   	Country (Short)	Country (Full)	Flag	Region     	City    	ISP                                 	Source
69.120.111.23	US             	UNITED STATES 	    	CONNECTICUT	STAMFORD	OPTIMUM ONLINE (CABLEVISION SYSTEMS)	IP2 Location (Free)
69.120.111.23	               	              	    	           	        	                                    	
69.120.111.23	               	              	    	           	        	                                    	
69.120.111.23	               	              	    	           	        	                                    	
--  Hornetman16  05:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The 4:01 June 25th edit

message: That string needs to be returned.   This place is not a democracy, but when everyone else disagrees with you, Moe, you should consider for a second that you might be wrong.  That's a legit discussion to have (Wesleymullins 06:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then they can take it to the admin's noticeboard or to OFFICE, this talk page is for improving the article, not general comments about the subject. — Moe ε 06:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I can see, it didn't really divulge anything as the user was anonymous. Here's the diff for reference:  east.718 06:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anonymous or not, divulging IP information on ANY account without the account holders permission is in violation of the Wikimedia Foundation Privacy Policy.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 06:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then those references could be removed without taking down the whole thread (Wesleymullins 06:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The conversation still doesn't belong here. Take it to OFFICE, take it AN/I, take it someplace that it fits that isn't here. — Moe ε 07:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: again, it's not a democracy, but you are the only person voicing that concern while many others believe it is legit for discussion.  (Wesleymullins 07:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How does it improve the article? Answer: I doesn't. — Moe ε 07:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: If you want to go play investigator, report it someplace, talk to OFFICE, otherwise your hypothetical allegations are not adding on to the story, your only being disruptive. — Moe ε 07:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isnt everyone here playing investigator?  Isnt that what this site is about?  I dont know what hypothetical allegations you think I am adding.  All I am saying is that someone added a comment about his wife's death 18 hours before it was released.  Everyone else thinks it is legit to discuss and adds an aspect to this story not reported anywhere else.  (Wesleymullins 07:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also important to note that every news report speculates that Chris died sometime Monday, meaning he was still alive when somoene posted that remark about his wife being dead.  (Wesleymullins 07:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:NOT an investigative journalism source. WP:NOR clearly prohibits this sort of investigation. If that is what you think Wikipedia's goal is, then we don't want your assistance with the project. Continue down this road and you will find yourself blocked for 24hrs.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 07:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: THis is not original research.  I am simply pointing to two facts.  1, the news outlets report that his wife died over the weekend and Chris died Monday.  2, someone on here posted a message saying that his wife was dead about 18 hours before the press broke the story and during the time when the media says he was still alive.  No theories here, no speculation.  Those are simply the facts (Wesleymullins 07:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to threaten people with being banned, why not start with all the theories below on the different ways he could have killed himself.  Those are theories; what I posted was facts. (Wesleymullins 07:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You really are looking to be blocked.. — Moe ε 07:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have to be very nice. Again, I didn't remove it because I didn't agree with you, one, because of the privacy policy violation before hand and the fact it didn't belong here. — Moe ε 07:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And now, I am going to feed you anymore. — Moe ε 07:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: You are calling me a troll?  Look at all the arguments on your talk page.  Looks like you make it a daily habit of starting stuff like this (and yes, you started this) and then bully people into threatening them with a ban.  (Wesleymullins 07:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The 4:01 June 25th post

message: :Category:Cause of death disputed  I would do it myself, but this is on super-lockdown at the minute. Lugnuts 12:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is technically no dispute over his cause of death; it's just officially unknown at this point. Jeff Silvers 13:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say it's disputed even without the "no gunshot wounds" comment that's been flying around.  IE - did he def. kill his wife, or did she kill him?  Or did he committ suicide and if so, what method.  Note, I'm not using this as a forum, I'm just explaining my rationale for the above category.   The article has the text: the station reported that investigators believe that Benoit murdered his wife and son .  Again, nothing concrete, and esp. in the light of the recent Bob Wolmer debarcle, then I wouldn't take it as read as this being 100% fact. Lugnuts 14:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, unknown is not the same as "disputed".  Disputed means there are two or more sides, each of them proposing a different cause of death. That's not the case here. -- MisterHand 14:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: It isn't disputed. My cousin is a sergeant in the Phoenix Police Department, and he has often mentioned they can't present a series of events to the public as fact until an autopsy is performed. The Hybrid 15:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  add category 

message: According to WWE.com, Benoit sent what it described as "curious text messages" to several WWE wrestlers early Sunday morning, which prompted them to contact a WWE official, who then contacted Fayette County police.  The article also mentions that WWE has additional information about the deaths and investigation that it has been asked to withhold for the time being.  I think both bits are extremely relevant and need to be added to the article (especially considering they can be verified with a reliable source and are therefore not mere speculation). Jeff Silvers 13:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional confirmed information regarding text messages 

message: To one of him with the World title, his greatest achievement. there are several pictures on WWE.com
http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/
I especially like these three.
http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/19.jpg
http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/10.jpg
http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/photos1/4959102/17.jpg
Any of those would be great. What do you guys think? UnknownToaster 13:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia respects the copyrights of others.  We do not use a copyrighted image when we have a freely licensed one. --BigDT 13:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They would be great, but Wikipedia would never use a nonfree image over a free one. In all truth though, I was surprised when the image of Benoit winning the title was deleted so quickly. -- Scorpion0422 13:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually have 2 pictures of him that I took upclose of him in the beginning of May of this year. He wasn't in a great mood at the time, because I think he was late for practice for the event, and he wasn't signing any autographs. I have his side shot of him getting his backpack out of his truck (pretty close), but it's not a great shot of him wrestling or anything. I'll happily release it for use on this page, but I'm sure there are better out there. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request change of picture 

message: :Image:Benoit News.jpg
Taken as the news broke on a local TV channel - "Benoit News.jpg"
:And what does that have to do with this article? -- Scorpion0422 15:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What the hell do you think? Itsmeltc 16:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The user was proposing it for use in the article, so it does have something to do with it, but since it isn't a picture of the crime scene or anything I don't think that it should be used. Peace, The Hybrid 15:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture for Death section

message: *There's some new information in , including a statement that the deaths weren't gun-related, and that the WWE asked police to check on Benoit after a series of curious text messages from him early Sunday morning. Anchoress 15:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think the footnotes should be alright later or need to be relocated to another URL on the site (I haven't checked in deep into the site). Most of the "dead links" you are reporting, are coming from Online World of Wrestling, which is relaible and still available, but something is making the links not come in, so we need to investigate as to why. These links don't have publication dates and they are all written by Brad Dykens, the person in charge of the site. — Moe ε 16:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updates once protection is lifted - let's list them here 

message: Keep an eye out for a possible "2007 Benoit family tragedy" page or something along those lines. Usually in cases like this, a page like that will eventually come along. -- Scorpion0422 15:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's already begun: In memory of chris benoit -- Scorpion0422 15:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: and here 2007 benoit family tragedy ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Theres no guarentee that the editor who creates these pages will link to the Chris benoit article. In fact, the last 3 or four that I saw that were deleted, didn't link to this article. — Moe ε 15:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Keep an eye Out

message: is it true that chris was meant to win the ecw championship the night he died like eddie was meant to win the world championship. Should it be put in the artical? Mt 1994 15:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if you can find a reliable source that says it, which will likely never happen. -- Scorpion0422 15:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I highly doubt there are any reliable sources that can verify that WWE was going to give Benoit the title. — Moe ε 15:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That depends on whether one considers Dave Meltzer a reliable source. His newsletter contains this information; which is, by the way, a logical inference, considering that Benoit's replacement won the belt instead. Best wishes, Xoloz 17:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually saw a link somewhere in my searching that he was supposed to go against CM Punk on Sunday for the title, after being drafted to ECW. I highly doubt it was a "news" site, more of a fan site. I'm sure this isn't acceptable enough. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That part is verifiable; the ECW Championship minitournament had its first/semifinal round on ECW on Sci-Fi on Tuesday, with CM Punk defeating Marcus Cor Von and Benoit defeating Elijah Burke to advance to the finals at Vengeance.  Rdfox 76 19:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ala eddie

message: I think an admin should add that there were no fire arms or guns used. There is a reliable source: the news. Although I can't find it on MyFoxAtlanta yet, I was just watching Fox 5 News (the news station here in Atlanta) at 12:00 PM, and it was the headline news.  In it, they said that the authorities told them there were no gun shots or fire arms used. Can any admin add it?  Xihix 16:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? — Moe ε 16:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is the TMZ article, but I think that we should wait for a more "legit" news source to say something.  youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 16:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, at least until the autopsy report is released. — Moe ε 16:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Confirmed on Fox Sports  Bytebear 16:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: There is a more 'legit' source (for the firearms angle), the CBC article I linked to above (link no. 7 in the 'updates' section). Anchoress 16:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: CNN newsflash on front page: A law enforcement official close to the investigation tells The Associated Press that pro wrestler Chris Benoit strangled his wife and smothered his son before hanging himself in his weight room. SirFozzie 16:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bingo.  youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 17:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say add it, making sure to note that it was an anonymous source. Noting that would at least give something to backtrack on in the slim chance something else be revealed to have happened Garistotle 17:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: AJC reports the same, as well as Chris and Nancy were undergoing a divorce. http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/fayette/stories/2007/06/25/0625benoit.html Socby19 17:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i guess the domestic violence items in the AJC article should be added at some point as well.harlock_jds 17:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Who is FNC? Socby19 17:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fox News Channel  youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 17:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No gun/fire arms

message: I added the following to the article:
Does that read okay? Socby19 17:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd honestly leave that out until there is confirmation one way or the other he would be included in the game or not. At best the comment is just crystal ballingWildthing61476 17:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But he was confirmed, the day before WM 23. Socby19 17:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I misread that, sorry. If he's been confirmed, until anything to the contrary is said, leave it as confirmed. Wildthing61476 17:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I hate to be crude, but Owen didn't kill anyone as Benoit has been allegedly accused of. Wildthing61476 17:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: yeah but Owen didn't kill his family... the WWE has been removing all references to Benoit from it's web page other than the initial story (taking down down tribute videos, removing him from dvd match listings and has discontinued his merch) so i really doubt he will be in any future WWE video game but we shouldn't add it till he is officially removedharlock_jds 17:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's true he did murder his wife and child, I wouldn't want to buy a game celebrating the guy... Whatever respect he earned during his career is out the window, assuming that it's all true... this guy's just like OJ Simpson now... If the game producers were wise, he'd best not be in the game... on the same note, Chris Benoit SHOULD NEVER be in the WWE Hall of Fame... murders and child killers DON'T get celebrated in our culture.
I think it should be left how it reads in the article. But a good past example (sort of) of questioning the game is Eddie Guererro. The '06 version was released in the US two days after Eddie died, and he was a regular character. Obviously, since the game has been pressed and shipped, they couldn't do anything. But, with '07, Eddie was a Legend but unlocked from the start. The reason I say sort of is because he killed his family, and Owen's and Eddie's death were 'accidents'. Socby19 17:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WWE SmackDown vs. Raw 2008]] status

message: Pro wrestler Chris Benoit strangled his wife and smothered his son before hanging himself in his weight room, a law enforcement official close to the investigation told The Associated Press Tuesday. -- Wrestler Benoit strangled wife, smothered son, hung himself in weight room, Associated Press story by Debbie Newby  
===Proposed text===
According to a law enforcement official, Benoit strangled his wife, smothered his son, then hanged himself in his weight room.Wrestler Benoit strangled wife, smothered son, hung himself in weight room, Associated Press story by Debbie Newby --Ssbohio 19:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Recommend we wait until the press conference on this; at this point, even though it's attributed to a reliable, verifiable source, it's still speculation on the part of the media and police.  Rdfox 76 19:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. We can wait a few more minutes.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 19:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm on CNN right now, and the press conference is going to happen momentarily. My suggestion is to wait until after the conference, and the official press release from it. Relax WiiAlbanyGirl 19:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That's what smothering IS. King of America 19:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but even when specifically asked he refused to specify that he had his mouth covered by some instrument of death, such as a bag or pillow, as opposed to strangulation. The Hybrid 19:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The CBC confirms it.  Anchoress 19:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: He actually called all 3 deaths an asphyxiation. No one confirmed a strangulation or a smothering, except that the wife was actually bound at the wrists and feet, and the son did not have blood surrounding him and there was no sign of restraint. There are not many details, except she died Friday, the kid died Saturday and Benoit died on late Saturday by hanging himself with the cord (pulley) of a weight in his weight room. I suppose that this conflicts with the report that Benoit actually called in himself saying he would not be able to report for Vengeance. There is not a lot of information on why this happened, and I'm doubtful that we will ever know who Benoit texted (a co-worker of some sort), and what he said. I think all that should be said is that all three died of asphyxiation. The Fayette County District Attorney also announced that there was a Bible beside each body. This keeps getting ODDER and odder... Should we just put minor details, or that they all died of asphyxiation (who died of murder, and Chris died of Suicide). There is too much speculation now, not much out of this press conference.  WiiAlbanyGirl 19:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that Benoit murdered his family by asphyxiation, and then hung himself, causing his own death by asphyxiation. After that we should say that the toxicology reports are pending, and leave it at that. The details of restraints and Bibles don't seem necessary. The Hybrid 19:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do agree with you for now, but when all details to be released are made known to the public, I do believe that details as to how the son and wife's murder was different (which is apparently was) needs to be stated, as well as how he did commit suicide. This is not speculated, as this has been legally released as fact by the District Attorney of Fayette County, GA. Unless this event will constitute a completely different article, this is going to be a significant part of his image and posthumous legacy, and all relevant details (not necessarily what one deems necessary and what one deems unnecessary) should be included. I'm sure this would include a vote of all editors on Wiki involved. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: it's up to the comunity to choose what's relevent and what's not... the bibles speek to his state of mind and should be includedharlock_jds 19:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well, we can add all of the details, but I would wait to do so until the toxicology reports are released, personally. If you want to do so sooner I won't fight you, however. I was just stating my opinion, open to be opposed by the general community. Cheers, The Hybrid 19:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AP quote confirming murder-suicide 

message: According to a law enforcement official, Benoit strangled his wife, smothered his son, then hanged himself in his weight room.Wrestler Benoit strangled wife, smothered son, hung himself in weight room, Associated Press story by Debbie Newby --Ssbohio 19:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Recommend we wait until the press conference on this; at this point, even though it's attributed to a reliable, verifiable source, it's still speculation on the part of the media and police.  Rdfox 76 19:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. We can wait a few more minutes.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 19:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm on CNN right now, and the press conference is going to happen momentarily. My suggestion is to wait until after the conference, and the official press release from it. Relax WiiAlbanyGirl 19:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That's what smothering IS. King of America 19:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but even when specifically asked he refused to specify that he had his mouth covered by some instrument of death, such as a bag or pillow, as opposed to strangulation. The Hybrid 19:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The CBC confirms it.  Anchoress 19:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: He actually called all 3 deaths an asphyxiation. No one confirmed a strangulation or a smothering, except that the wife was actually bound at the wrists and feet, and the son did not have blood surrounding him and there was no sign of restraint. There are not many details, except she died Friday, the kid died Saturday and Benoit died on late Saturday by hanging himself with the cord (pulley) of a weight in his weight room. I suppose that this conflicts with the report that Benoit actually called in himself saying he would not be able to report for Vengeance. There is not a lot of information on why this happened, and I'm doubtful that we will ever know who Benoit texted (a co-worker of some sort), and what he said. I think all that should be said is that all three died of asphyxiation. The Fayette County District Attorney also announced that there was a Bible beside each body. This keeps getting ODDER and odder... Should we just put minor details, or that they all died of asphyxiation (who died of murder, and Chris died of Suicide). There is too much speculation now, not much out of this press conference.  WiiAlbanyGirl 19:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that Benoit murdered his family by asphyxiation, and then hung himself, causing his own death by asphyxiation. After that we should say that the toxicology reports are pending, and leave it at that. The details of restraints and Bibles don't seem necessary. The Hybrid 19:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do agree with you for now, but when all details to be released are made known to the public, I do believe that details as to how the son and wife's murder was different (which is apparently was) needs to be stated, as well as how he did commit suicide. This is not speculated, as this has been legally released as fact by the District Attorney of Fayette County, GA. Unless this event will constitute a completely different article, this is going to be a significant part of his image and posthumous legacy, and all relevant details (not necessarily what one deems necessary and what one deems unnecessary) should be included. I'm sure this would include a vote of all editors on Wiki involved. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: it's up to the comunity to choose what's relevent and what's not... the bibles speek to his state of mind and should be includedharlock_jds 19:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well, we can add all of the details, but I would wait to do so until the toxicology reports are released, personally. If you want to do so sooner I won't fight you, however. I was just stating my opinion, open to be opposed by the general community. Cheers, The Hybrid 19:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed text

message: News conferences currently being aired and released by reliable sources are shedding new and important details on the deaths of the Benoit family. This article has been locked long enough for simple vandalism. Administrators should know better, but evidently the locking administrator has not learned lesson from previous mistakes. Perhaps a more competent administrator could please unlock the article. Thank you. ~ UBeR 19:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, it needs to be locked especially after the press conference. This is a target for extreme vandalism, the vandalism taking place every 30 seconds before it was locked testifies to that, and needs to be protected. And yes, vandalism is a reason for full protection; there is a long history of it. Those who say it isn't have no idea what they are talking about. I would recommend leaving it locked until Saturday morning, personally. The Hybrid 19:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the va tech killing articles managed to survive without full protection... why is this different?harlock_jds 19:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: because wrestling vandals are complete dicks. Trust me, wrestling articles are usually the ones needing full protection. The Hybrid 19:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: yeah the level of vandalism on these articles on a regular day, would probably warrant a semi-protection for other articles.  That being said, there are biographical info that I'd like to add to the article. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 19:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ramsquire: thats what this talk page is for... post the information you want added, and we'll work it in.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 19:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I think that you admins are doing a great job. Ignore this angry person, and keep on doing what you're doing ;) The Hybrid 19:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: because no one has asked an admin to update it. ALKIVAR's presence clearly suggests that the admins are waiting on us to come up with what should be added. I'll get to work on that immediately. The Hybrid 19:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with the protection of the page.  Making people wait or forcing patience is a good thing.  The edits I want to make are unrelated to the murder and are not major, so I can wait a few days and see if the someone else makes the change.  One thing I would suggest is brief mention of the Raw tribute in the death section, and maybe adding a legacy section at some later point.  But I can wait to see if it will be necessary. Ramsquire (throw me a line) 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  News conference sheds new details; incompetent admins keep article locked 

message: At the press conference, the police said that they found steroids in the house but they were doing tests to see if Chris had any in his body. They were also saying that his actions could be part of 'roid rage'. It's said that it came to this and he will be remembered for this. (MgTurtle 19:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it should also be noted that the steroids  found were from a legal prescription (likely using injury rehab as justification). as for the 'roid range' thing that is still speculation but since the murders took place over the span of a weekend i don't think it can be attributed to 'roid rage'harlock_jds 19:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, the Bibles do suggest that he was in a less than stable state of mind. Roid rage may very well be the case, but we mustn't speculate anymore. The Hybrid 19:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  well i think we can safely say he was not in a good state of mind, i just am not quick to jump on 'Roid Rage' as the cause of his mental state.harlock_jds 20:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Tell that to Fox News. They're spitting it out as fact already, but what else is new. They just had a panel on talking about how we have to stop roid usage at all costs in regards to the Benoit incident, even though the toxicology report won't be back for weeks. So yes, let's avoid speculation. Wilhelm Screamer 19:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Fox, of course they're spewing propaganda. I'm just saying that nothing can be ruled out yet. The Hybrid 20:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That's your opinion, and Wikipedia articles don't claim accuracy in regards to medical issues. Until doctors confirm or throw out the theory, we have a responsibility to keep or minds open. The Hybrid 07:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drugs 

message: A press conference taking place on Tuesday, June 26 confirmed that Chris Benoit had murdered his wife and son. Both died of asphyxiation. His wife was bound at the wrists and feet, while there were no signs of restraint on his son. It is reported that his wife died on Friday, his son died on Saturday, and he killed himself Saturday evening or Saturday night. He committed suicide by hanging himself by the cord of a weight machine in his basement, causing him to die of asphyxiation. It was also reported that Bibles were found next to the bodies of Nancy and Daniel. Prescribed anabolic steroids were also found within the house, though toxicology reports are still pending.http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286737,00.html Tuesday, June 26 Press Conference summary by Fox News
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usbeno0627,0,5059205.story?coll=ny-top-headlines Tuesday, June 26 Press conference summary by Newsday
Does that work for everyone? The Hybrid 20:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with the wording, add a reference or two that backs the major points and I'll add it in.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Both have press conference summaries. Socby19 20:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are plenty of reliable sources at this point (CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, etc.) to verify all of this, it looks good. Wildthing61476 20:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Only change I'd suggest is the final sentence, instead of a Bible by each body, it should be "It was also reported that Bibles were found next to the bodies of Nancy and Daniel."  The conference was pretty clear that no bible was found with Chris Benoit. CeladusThrace 20:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Content added and the bible location was clarified.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, The Hybrid 20:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Cord corrected, i am not including mention of steroids until more facts are clear from toxicology. We are not going to get caught up in the reckless speculation that this was 'roid rage. Wikipedia goes on a policy of verifiability. Currently some sources are speculating about steroids, not speaking w/ any factual backing. At this point all we know is that there was medication found in the house, all of it "appears" to be legally prescribed.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  should we say his son Daniel instead of just his son? i know he had other children but i don't know if he had any other sons.harlock_jds 20:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The last sentence clarifies who it was The Hybrid 20:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material to add 

message: the article says he died on june 25th but in the death section it says he killed himself sometime either on saturday or early sunday...when did he die anyway? user:sub619 20:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Autopsy has not confirmed time of death yet.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is known that he killed himself before Monday though, the sheriff did says the autoposy showed it to be Saturday or possible early Sunday. TJ Spyke 06:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  death date 

message: This article should make positive statements concerning the actual cause of his committing these horrible acts when it does become unprotected or if an admin makes the edits. The police have stated that they have found Anabolic steroids at the crime scene and numerous people in the media have been postulating as to whether or not "Roid rage" caused him to lose his mind. It can be stated that it has been "postulated that Anabolic steroids were a contributing factor" however it should also be mentioned that the scientific evidence supporting "Roid rage" is nill. The studies that have been done concerning steroids and aggressive have shown little or no effects on angry behavior or psychosis. Most of the larger professional wrestlers are steroid users and as are thousands of professional bodybuilders worldwide, The rate of psychosis or aggression among them isn't any higher than among the normal population. Most studies on "Roid rage" have shown that either it's effects are minimal or it doesn't even exist. See [], [] and [].  Wikidudeman (talk) 20:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a new article by ESPN on the Murder & Steroid connection. ESPN: Steroids discovered in probe of slayings, suicide. "In an interview with ESPN.com on Tuesday, Ballard indicated that the boy had needle marks in his arms. The district attorney said he believed that the boy had been given growth hormones for some time because the family considered him undersized."--Hndsmepete 00:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That could be why he had steroids in his home. Wikidudeman (talk) 08:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning steroids... 

message: Alkivar, can you edit the section in death and change the disambiguation of the link for Georgia? It currently says:
"Fayette County, Georgia police are investigating Benoit's house..."
it needs to say:
"Fayette County, Georgia police are investigating Benoit's house..."
Thanks. — Moe ε 20:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it should be 1 link: "Fayette County, Georgia police are investigating Benoit's house..." TJ Spyke 21:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, we should link the county and the state unless you have some reason not to. — Moe ε 21:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Theres no reason to have seperate links. It would be like having WWE, Championship when talking about the WWE Championship. TJ Spyke 22:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's common to do this with locations. — Moe ε 22:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what i've seen, it's only being done by a bot and I have expressed my disagreement on the talkpage of the bot. TJ Spyke 06:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Georgia

message: Could an admin add this to the list of categories for Benoit? :Category:Sportspeople who committed suicide, since it's been confirmed that he hung himself. TJ Spyke 21:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That, along with :Category:Canadian murderers, :Category:Murderers of children, :Category:Murder-suicide.  It's a damn shame; Benoit was off the chain... D4S 02:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And also this category: :Category:Suicides by hanging.  It's all confirmed now from reliable sources.  It should be updated as soon as IMO. Lugnuts 04:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Category

message: Can someone fix it so there is a table of contents for skipping to the specific post? Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 21:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What did you change to make it show up? Wikidudeman (talk) 21:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table of contents... 

message: I see this has been mentioned a couple of times on the talk page, but is still not mentioned in the article. Nancy filed for divorce from Benoit, but later dropped the case. I think the following should be added to the article. It includes a source from SportsIllustrated.com in conjecture with CNN.com:
In 2003, Nancy filed for divorce from Benoit, citing the marriage as "irrevocably broken" and alleging "cruel treatment." She later dropped the suit, as well as the restraining order filed on her husband.
I'm not sure if this info should go in the personal life or death portion of the article. What do others think? Nikki311 21:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly in the death section, as it is mentioned in almost every article as a foreshadowing of the tragic murder.--Hndsmepete 00:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Done. I added the text to the personal life section. It seems like speculation and bias to put it in the death section. Cheers. --MZMcBride 18:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info to add 

message: The Benoit WWE.com profile link now leeds to a "Not Found" page. Time to remove it. Maxwell795 21:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the link to his bio still works (http://www.wwe.com/shows/ecw/superstars/chrisbenoit/bio), but everything else is gone. As for how he's being treated, it's wrong everyone looks at him now as only a murderer and almost refuse to acknowledge the good things he did in his career. I'm definitely in the minority here, but I still respect him as a professional wrestler.  What he did to his family is wrong, and I'm sorry that it happened and that this is what his "legacy" is. Mike 01:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWE.com Profile link no longer works 

message: A few minor edits for the new paragraph today under the "Death section". The paragraph begins with "During a press conference Tuesday". The following minor edits should be made:
*A wikilink for June 26
*A wikilink for district attorney, and uncapitalize both the words "district" and "attorney" as they are not proper nouns
*Switch "killed" to "murdered", it's more formal as killing is broad.
*A wikilink to asphyxiation
*A wikilink for hanging
*A wikilink for weight machine
*A wikilink for Bible
Admin help please? Thank you! — Moe ε 21:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Links added.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 22:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, since we're suggesting changes...how 'bout changing the death date to what's actually being reported and not Monday, since they said that the death date was Saturday the 23rd or the morning of Sunday the 24th. Salisbury Steak (complaint dept. - contribs) 23:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was originally reported as Monday, but later sources pushed the dates back a little furthur, theres no harm in it. We just need to change the pretense of the sentence to signify that. — Moe ε 23:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm inclined to wait til the autopsy result is made public, then we'll have an more accurate time of death.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 23:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly wasn't Saturday. WWE.com posted an article about the text messages he sent, which were in the wee hours of the morning Sunday, likely (but that's my own speculation) moments before he hanged himself. Nosleep1234 02:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor edits in new paragraph

message: I have to give a rousing applauds to the admins for handling this untimely and horrible story very well and keeping it from getting out of hand quickly. Let this be an example on how to handle such a story like this. --Raderick 22:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree it allows a admin's personal feelings to control the POV of an article. Totally locking down an article like this is pointless and harmful to wikipedia. The Nancy Daus article seems to be doing fine with it's simi protection.harlock_jds 12:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Applauds! 

message: The article says, "Benoit killed himself later Saturday evening or early Sunday morning." According to WWE, Benoit sent text messages early Sunday morning (http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/chrisbenoittimeline). It's unlikely he was dead while he sent them. Celedor15 22:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Just to be sure, there's no programs that can be told "Send this text message in ## hours."  --  Zanimum 14:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Date of Death

message: Since the page is fully protected— some administrator please fix the "May 21st, 1967" to "May 21, 1967" in the "date of birth" column in the Infobox. Also, the DOD in the intro. says "24 June 2007", while in the Infobox it says "25 June 2007". Really sloppy work folks — John Stattic (talk) 22:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. -- Gogo Dodo 23:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, it's BELIEVED that it was murder-suicide. Putting it in such solid words, like it's written in stone or something, looks presumptuous  so soon after the press release. Until all of the facts are known, the words should be prefaced by such words as "charged of" "accused of" or "believed to be the cause" or something like that. Not all factors have been thought of. What if the murderer was a friend of the family? "No signs of a forced entry" doesn't mean no one came in at all, especially if they were welcomed inside. Until the toxicology results are back, and all signs point to Chris Benoit being the actual murderer, beyond a shadow of a doubt, then we can begin with stating things as if they were facts. AMReese 00:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  the toxicology reports aren't going to point all signs back to Benoit. All we can do is mirror what the media repots since the 'real truth' will never be 100% definate. wikipedia doesn't care about the 'truth' only verifiabiltiy and popular opinion.harlock_jds 00:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. To report it the opposite of what news sources say is POV pushing, and speculation. Whether you believe he did it. Or even if you believe a new suspect will arise, it does not matter. The only thing that matters at this point is what the current sources are saying. If they are wrong, the article can be edited. Thus, there is no need to hedge. The only reason to hedge would be potential libel issues. However, if there is a reasonable attributable source--which we have, there are no libel issues.CraigMonroe 01:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  plus the people likely to sue for libel  (Benoit) are dead... that's why their is a difference in the standards between the bio's of living people and non living people.harlock_jds 01:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The one thing I can think of right now is, in regards to the CYA principle (IE: "believed to have caused").. That use of the words "apparent" and "alleged" satisfy that form of neutrality.Garistotle 13:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Significant formatting errors

message: The second paragraph, where it mentions him killing is wife and son, his sons age needs to be added there and also his wifes age. As it is now it is up to the reader to guess their ages, I mean his son could have been an adult for all many readers would know. JayKeaton 03:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Daniels age

message: Is it possible that years of Concussions from his Flying Head Butt had anything to do with this crazy situation.  I heard people say things about it, but almost every match I remember Benoit, if it didn't end in 10 mins with the Crossface, Most times during the match, he did that head butt.  Could this have contribuated to his insane act(if he did do such act, again, I'm not telling you how events happened, but I'm guessing).The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 15:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say its a definite possibility. Again, that ties in with what Christopher Nowinski was saying about the effects of concussions. --Garistotle 15:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't buy Nowinski explnation Mick foley has had more shoots to the head and concutions and hasn't gone "insane" ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn't meen to be spectical about it I just thourt it was strange that mick hasnt ever gone in violenet rages but then I never thought Benoit would ever do that ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flying Head Butt 

message: This is the quote on the main page introduction..
Benoit later garnered significant notoriety after he killed his wife and child in a murder-suicide.
On June 25, 2007, Benoit, his wife Nancy, and their 7 year old son Daniel were found dead in their Fayetteville, Georgia, home at around 2:30 PM EDT.[5] Subsequent investigation confirmed that Chris Benoit had murdered his wife and son and then hanged himself.[6]
Would it maybe display less redundancy if the article only mentioned the muder-suicide once in the introduction? I would rather put the following:
"Benoit later garnered significant notoriety after he killed his wife and child before taking his own life in a murder-suicide. On June 25, 2007, the bodies of all three were found in their Fayetteville, Georgia home."
Of course, sourcing it will be important, but how does that look for formatting's sake? --Garistotle 15:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The cleaned up quote is most definitely a better read.  Mike 15:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the quote to roughly what I had there. It eliminates the redundancy, keeps the killing part in the first paragraph and is properly referenced.--Garistotle 15:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the change, though the time the bodies were found can be left for later in the article. CraigMonroe 16:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  redundancy 

message: Check out this story on foxnews.com
[]
- T-75|talk|contribs 17:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  Dionyseus 18:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I just read that article too. Looks like they are referring to this edit.↔NMajdan•talk 18:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: mabye it was a Ip adress they change all the time and we would have slim chance finding him/her ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the other posts for that IP, it's fairly obvious that he's a garden variety vandal, who just happened to be right (although I'm sure he didn't know it at the time) SirFozzie 18:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  wow thats a 1 in a 10000 coincidence ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: You'll have to look here.  Rklawton 18:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thanks for pointing that out, I see that yet another wiki editor has NO IDEA what "trolling" is, but man do many of them love to use the word.  I'm also glad to see that someone thinks they should just delete a conversation and not archive it, leaving it to come back up yet again. - T-75|talk|contribs 19:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The thread that he pointed you to was actually the second one the editor deleted.  You can view the first one here.  Notice not only do those two guys have NO IDEA what it means to troll (and sadly, one of them is an admin), the editor jumped to the top of a thread and told everyone he'd be damned if he would let this discussion continue.  The admin blocked him for 1 hour and me for 24 hours.  That admin REALLY needs to be reviewed for his actions that night.  It's a disgrace.  Wesleymullins 20:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I also posted about that too man, I remember putting up the link and everything, then the next day when I looked through the archives, the whole entry was gone.  Still mystifies me as to who could have had such info some 14 and a half hours before anyone else... -- Shatterzer0 21:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benoit Death posted on wikipedia before police find bodies 

message: Police raid office of Canadian wrestler Benoit's doctor. Anchoress 18:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benoit's doctor's office raided 

message: why does daniel benoit redirect here? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To basically prevent such an article to be created. Apart from his death, he's nowhere notable for one. -- Oakster  Talk  20:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  daniel Benoit 

message: Not to start a rumors or something, but according to PWI Insider, who credits the Associated Press  (Spam protection filter doesn't allow me to post the link directly), there were "ten empty beer cans found in the Benoit home and an empty bottle of wine was found near Chris Benoit's body." 
If it wasn't 'roid rage, then alcoholism could have been a factor. 
Also, TMZ.com reports that Benoit's personal physician, Phil Carroll Astin, had a suspension from practice  and as mentioned above the doctor's office was raided earlier today. 
Also tonight Debra Marshall (Stone Cold Steve Asutin's ex) will appears on Hannity and Colmes tonight, just thought that may be of some significance. — Moe ε 21:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: PWI Insider/AP and TMZ releases

message: The formating of the "Notes" with a scroll bar is problematic for people who might want to print the article as well as the notes. I have changed it to a double columned note list which would make it possible for printers to print the data. Wikidudeman (talk) 22:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, there's a "Printable Version" link on the left sidebar you might want to check out... -- RoninBK  T C   08:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Format of "Noties"