Talk:Transylvania/Archive 1

message: I consider unacceptable the sentence that Transylvania is "culturally one of the most advanced regions of Romania".--Vasile 13:45, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural "superiority" 

message: The theory grounding on an antique record about Dacians extermination after the Roman victory and few dozens of similar words in Romanian and Albanian, claims that the Romans and the romanised Dacians withdrew south of the Danube at the time of the Great Migration of nations at the dusk of the Ancient Ages, when barbarian tribes consequently pushed in. Most prominent of these probably were the Huns. These centuries of war and invasion, changing domination by Goths, Huns, Avars, Slavs expurged all romanisation and Roman influence from the Carpathian Bassin, which includes Transylvania. South of the Danube under the protection of Byzantium, the romanised population could survive, where the Vlach people were formed. From the 14th century, due to by-then Ottoman domination, Vlachs started migrating north into the territory of Transylvania seeking security, where they became herdsmen and peasants of local Hungarian lords. Romanians were called Vlachs in the Middle Ages. 
I left here only the main ideas of the theories, the proofs/evidences/details should be included in Origin of Romanians. Bogdan | Talk 11:33, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: These theories are related with Translyvania, so you should add those proofs/details. I revert to the previous version. --Vasile 15:09, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why ? Since the proofs and details are far from complete in here, they are not NPOV. If they would be complete, they would simply duplicate everything that is written on Origin of Romanians. Bogdan | Talk 14:59, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theories 

message: "No major power was able to exert control over the region for any great length of time, until the Avars, who came from Scythia, established an empire there. By 568, the Avars under the leadership of their Kagan, Bajan, established in the Carpathian Basin an empire that lasted for 250 years."
Maybe is exagerated to admit that 250 years empire of Avars in Carpathian Basin. To have an empire it is not enough that a man to pretend to be an emperor. --Vasile 01:54, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avars empire 

message: I believed using the term "Golden Age of Transylvania" is biased, since some people (i.e. Romanians) do not view that period as a Golden Age. Bogdan | Talk 18:16, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Golden Age of Transylvania" 

message: Overall, Criztu, you seem to have the aim of being obstructive rather than of contributing constructively to this article. What I have written was not my personal opinion or point of view, but a summary of what I read in the various sources I listed. As such, it is not comprehensive and may generalise too much or miss important points. However, rather than try to improve what I have written, you just delete sentences which you don't agree with. You have not even taken the time to check those sources I gave. You haven't given any sources yourself, so I can only presume that what you have written is unsourced. Scott Moore 11:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: ==

message: *Ultrasilvania, "the land beyond the forest", had the connotation of "not yet in the Hungary's possession". Later, instead of the Latin name, the Hungarian Erdőelve (area beyond the forest), which means the same as the Latin, was popularly used.
I have a problem with this sentences. from the little hungarian i know, the translation of TransSilvania into hungarian should be Erdotul (like in Dunantul) - tul means in hungarian "over", "beyond" Criztu 20:11, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  meaning of Transylvania 

message: Just like Hungarian "Udvarhely" was borrowed in Romanian as "Odorhei", if "Erdely" were borrowed into Romanian, it should be "Ardei", not "Ardeal". Bogdan | Talk 18:55, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erdely->Ardeal 

message: Hi all, I want to reformulate the Transylvania between 1918-1944 article, which i consider not satisfactory. I'll present you my PoV, please present your PoV on the issues. -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: let's not speculate what convinced Romania to join the Allies, rather let's say Romania joined the Allies in 1916 signing the Treaty of Versailles, however, if we're to speculate on what "convinced" Romania to join the Allies, then it was the Promise of Allies that they will recognise Romania's sovereignty over Transylvania and N. Bukovina -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: let's not speculate how confident of victory were the romanian troops. I'd rather say Romania begun the military offensive in Transylvania, resulting in a new front for the Central Powers -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: let's say that the Germans begun a counter offensive against Romania from Bulgaria, "driving the romanian army back into Romania" sounds like "the beasts were driven back to their cage" -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: let's use the original title of the treaty, which was the Peace Treaty between Germany and Romania, not "romania surrendered to the central powers" -- Criztu 12:06, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: no tide of war here, simply the Central Powers begun loosing the war -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Austria-Hungary was a Multi-national_state, and in 1918 all nations (not "many of the various ethnic groups") living inside it declared independence, including the austrians and hungarians -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: invoking the right of self-determination, expressed in Woodrow Wilson's 14 points, which applies for all people, not only for "Transylvania's Romanian people" -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Although Romania's rights over Transylvania were recognised by the Treaty of Versailles, the romanian army was stationed on Mures according to the same Treaty. In february 1919 a Neutral Zone between Romania and Hungary was established by the Powers of Versailles, to avoid conflict. Hungary (under Bela Kun) refused to withdraw the Hungarian Army accordingly, and generaly mobilised its army. Bela Kun had an agreement with Lenin by which the Soviet Union would military support Hungary against Romania (the Soviet Union didn't recognise the Union of Bessarabia with Romania) and the Hungarian Army built up east of Theiss. On 15/16 april Hungary attacked Romania, the romanian counteroffensive halted on Theiss river until July 1919, when the hungarian army attacked again across Theiss. On 30 july Romanian Army begun the counteroffensive and on 3rd August 1919 marched into Budapest, parts of Hungarian Army evacuated succesfuly west of Danube. Budapest was under Romanian control, Bela Kun fled to Austria and from there to Soviet Union. Romania supported Miklos Horthy against Bela Kun, and between october 1919 and march 1920 withdrew from Hungary... so i see the following formulation : Soviet Republic of Bela Kun attacked Romania in april 1919, the romanian counter offensive led to the occupation of Budapest by the Romanian Army, the hungarian bolshevik/communist government desintegrated, the Romanian Army withdrew from Hungary between October 1919 and March 1920 -- Criztu 11:55, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: let's search for the formulation of Romania's claims in the text of the "Convention between Romania and the Entente" negociated in summer 1916. -- Criztu 13:13, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: by all means if you find something there. However, you are not necessarily going to find the appropriate English term in such a document (which, anyway, was presumably was written in Romanian and/or French) Documents such as treaties are written in a formal or legalistic language which is often very different from standard written language. Scott Moore 13:23, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Romania's duty was to open a front in the region, so that the Central Powers to have to fight on more fronts, hopefuly leading to their defet. i don't know how to formulate it so to make it clear that the Central Powers had to deal with a new front opened against them, not that Romania opened a new front against the Central Powers (like it had already opened other "older" fronts) -- Criztu 13:13, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: well, this is the problem with writing about fronts. You are suddenly opening up the article to refer to the First World War as a whole. I don't think there is an easier way to be clear without explaining in more detail e.g what fronts already excisted for the Central Powers (which will make clear that this was the first front opened by Romania). Scott Moore 13:23, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Negotiations Begin

message: did Romania ceded the northern part of Transylvania to Hungary or not ? how could Hitler awarded the northern part of Transylvania to Hungary if Romania wouldn't have accepted the cession ? -- Criztu 07:41, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically the same way the class bully "awards" your lunch to his girlfriend, and you "cede" it without a fight (which you know is futile). --Gutza 11:26, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: wei Gutza, when one says "Hitler awarded part of Romania to other country" it means "Hitler owned Romania with official documents by which Romania recognizes the right of Hitler to dispose of Romania by his own will"; when one says "Romania ceded part of its teritory to another country on Hitler's pressure" it means "Romania signed official documents by which it alone is responsible for what it just did" and not "Hitler the bully scared Romania and Romania ceded its lunch to Hungary without signing any official documents" -- Criztu 11:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  romania ceded northern ardeal to hungary 

message: He's mentioned in a 1103/1113 Hungarian document. Do we know anything about Mercurius' ethnicity ? bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 20:17, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mercurius princeps Ultrasilvanus" 

message: i intent on reformulating the Early Middle Ages: From Dacia to the Great Migrations paragraph. to avoid countless reverts these are my objections to current formulation:
*it is believed that Transylvania was conquered by 934 by magyar tribes - did the magyar tribes conquered Transylvania by 934 ? how was this date determined, and based on what sources ?
**OK, please check the sources available to you and summarise them here. I will do the same. Then we can reformulate the text about when the Magyars conquered Transylvania. Scott Moore 11:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: well, it was you who put this 934 information, i suppose you read an anonimous site who "presents" the A.Madgearu's book on the presence of romanians in Transylvania, and there is this info about a magyar raid in the Byzantine empire, across Banat in 934, and you concluded this means the magyars have conquered Transylvania by 934. if you put this 934 date, then you have to be able to support you contribution, if not, then it is "GH speaks of the conquest of Transylvania by the magyar tribes from local rulers Gelu Glad and Menumorout during the Xth century, " . if you have a source supporting a different version, pls provide info on your source. if there is a "scarcity of sources" attesting the presence of romanians in transylvania until 13th century, then let;s see the "lavishness of sources" attesting the presence of the magyars in transylvania until 11th century -- Criztu 17:46, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: yeap, the source for "by 934 the magyars conquered Transylvania" is the Gesta Hungarorum where it is said that the magyars defeated Glad the ruler of the vlachs and slavs, whom you say it is "probably an invention of Anonymous"; so GH is the source for the presence of magyars, but not for the presence of the vlachs >:D -- Criztu 19:18, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No Criztu, I don't make my own conclusions from primary evidence - you are not supposed to present original research in Wikipedia. In any case, I'm not a historian, so it is pointless for me to try to evaluate the primary evidence - when I write text in Wikipedia I base it on secondary sources (in the case of the Transylvania article I'm mainly using "Millenium in Central Europe" by Laszlo Kontler and "Realm of St.Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary" by Pal Engel). I notice that you haven't yet listed the sources used for any of the text you have written. Scott Moore 13:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i listed, i listed, i've listed at least Lactantius for Galerius calling the eastern roman empire as Dacian Empire :) -- Criztu 16:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The GH is not the source for the presence of the Magyars. There are other written documents as well as archeological evidence. Scott Moore 13:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: let's see, what other sources place the magyars in Transylvania during the Xth century, except this GH (which says they took it from this vlach Gelou) ? :) -- Criztu 16:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: if the term "carpathian basin" was used in Hungary long before, than you should be able to provide info on this. currently i havn;t seen any other "Mountain basin" except this weird formula used by hungarian "opinnion" -- Criztu 17:46, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: if taking my words out of the context and cross-pasting them in other talkpages is your aproach, then i expect you to be more impartial and POV driven than i am -- Criztu 17:46, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carpathian Basin, Transylvania conquered by 934, romanians in Transylvania when magyars came