Talk:Alex Hawke

message: [ User:Rebecca some how finds this unfit for the page the info is relevant, referenced and well written]
In 2009 Alex Hawke was the subject as a result of his involvement in a factional battle in the NSW Liberal Party. Alex has been accused of splitting with his former allie Liberal Right NSW member of the legislative council David Clarke and drifting towards the the left of the party http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alex_Hawke&action=edit&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro to garner favour with the federal leader of the time Malcolm Turnbull in an unsuccessful attempt to move to the front bench http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/fine-feathered-factional-friends-20091002-ggew.html, Hawke later admitted to this shift in ideology http://www.smh.com.au/national/factional-war-over-as-top-liberals-declare-a-truce-20091024-he0c.html.
Several controversial incidents also brought Hawke into the public's attention. In September Hawke shut down a Young Liberal branch meeting scheduled to take place at his electoral office and later called the police to end it, he later faced criticism after police stated that there was no reason for them to be there and their presence was "a stunt" http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/liberal-branch-stoush-just-a-media-stunt-say-police/story-e6frg6o6-1225781848081. Hawke also was embarrassed by a video uploaded on to youtube, a parody of the German film Downfall where "translations" of the speakers alledgedly leaked much of Hawke's hidden factional manouvering in the Liberal Party. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/hitler-video-linked-to-battle-for-control-of-liberal-right-20091106-i24p.html
:I agree that something should be said about this in the article, as the Hawke-Clarke factional war has been widely reported. However, this text won't cut it - it's clearly a view of the feud from the perspective of the Clarke forces. It's a biography of a living person, and it needs to be much tighter and more neutral before it goes in the article. Rebecca (talk) 01:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 2009 Factional Controversy

message: References to controversial instances in Alex's career have often been removed. Previous material was referenced appropriately and drew its information from acknowledged sources such as The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is in contrast to assumptions made in previous entries regarding Alex's sexuality which were both unnecessary and referenced inappropriately. Pagesofhistory (talk) 12:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you've got an article with prominent Labor politicians calling the guy an "extremist" (presumably because he opposes abortion, supports the monarchy, or opposes drug rooms -- all very "extreme" things), an insinuation that he caused the near-suicide of a Liberal leader, and, well, lots and lots of opinion from lots of different leaders. Having an article as a quotes-r-us means its terribly opinionated. For all my Green friends out there, I wonder what Nettle's article would be like if it was littered with quotes of what people thought of her, including the all-knowing Adam Carr. Michael talk 21:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I generally agree with beneaththelandslide. All of the sections in Pagesofhistory's version take a biased slant to the article, focusing attention on how controversial he is. However, some mention of the preselection and his (much-cited) role in Brogden's general downfall does need mentioning. Rebecca (talk) 23:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversial matters arising from Hawke's career

message: I wasn't aware that there were 180 Mitchell preselectors. The numbers seem off, and I believe the Herald is wrong. Will need to update with a more accurate source when it becomes available. Michael talk 05:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: this source states 81 to 20, which also matches the numbers on the the ABC and Landeryou's blog. Michael talk 05:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preselection results 

message: During the 2007 Federal election campaign, it was reported in The Age that "The Liberal Party has also gagged one of its highest-profile and most controversial candidates, forbidding him from media interviews which, the party says, "are not a campaign priority".[23] However, numerous records of interviews with him exist in the Sydney Morning Herald [24] and local papers.
Why is it that this article in the Age newspaper (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/gaffeshy-leader-gags-all-labor-candidates/2007/10/10/1191695993861.html) that refers the gag placed on Alex Hawke (October 2007) and then with an additional sentence of "numerous records of interviews" with only reference which is an article from June 2007 before his preselection?
Talk about someone putting some spin on this article. My experience (as a local) is that Alex Hawke was almost never seen during the campaign. For an example see: http://castlehill.yourguide.com.au/news/local/political/foreignaid-shame/1082622.html
I think the "number records of interviews" sentence ought to be removed. --Dean Tregenza (talk) 05:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, the SMH article is after his preselection, not before. Secondly, I recall numerous articles involving him in the local media - that was how I got interested in this in the first place! The fact that he didn't attend one event is hardly indicative of anything, and the fact that he didn't give an interview to an interstate newspaper with a reputation of left-bias is, I would suggest, quite understandable. Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 05:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Election Campaign 

message: I know I just added to this, but I intend to remove all the nonsense accusations and what not throughout this article, and to keep it to the facts. Hawke has been subject to nothing less than a tsunami of invective from the left; this is not a commentary or opinion piece, and this rubbish does not belong (people can always click on the links to hear the SMH degenerate Hawke or the Australian praise him). All opinion—whether good or bad—should be removed, and only the facts should be included. Michael talk 01:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your decision to remove that paragraph. Just because Anthony Albanese opened his mouth to say something, Alex Hawke opened his mouth to defend himself and it was all reported in a newspaper does not make the quotations in question notable. An encyclopedia is not just full of facts, they need to be relevant facts. - Grumpyyoungman01 04:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I reiterate a need to keep this article neutral. Opinion, whether good or bad, needs to be kept out of it to avoid falling into an opinion piece. Michael talk 06:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tit-for-tat bullshit 

message: Any way of checking whether the SMH (107 to 81) or ABC (81 to 20) is correct on the vote last week? It seems odd that there's such a divergence between published media sources. Orderinchaos 04:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the 'preselection results' section above. Michael talk 04:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fact check

message: Reverted to edit prior to vandalism (unsubstantiated rumor about subject sexuality, possible defamation). (58.175.49.51 (talk) 19:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hawketown

message: with more people in attendance than for any other First Speech for almost twenty years http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/reps/dailys/dr200208.pdf House of Representatives Hansard Page 72
that is an opinion of Broadbent rather than verified fact. Michellecrisp (talk) 04:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that a Member of Parliament remarked on the extroninarily large attendence makes surley makes it relevant notable. Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 04:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: still doesn't make it fact. it is still a point of view that could be biased. Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias Michellecrisp (talk) 04:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  it wasn't refuted anywhere, and I would suggest that the fact there were so many observers it was worth a Member of Parliament stating it in the Chamber, makes it noteworthy and worth including. Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 04:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Michellecrisp.  The member for McMillan's remark could not be taken as a reliable source in the context that it was made. It may very well be true, but a better and impartial source is needed. —Moondyne click! 05:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What about something to note the large attendance without neccessarily saying it was the largest in 20 years? Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 05:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't add much value without being verifiable. It's a bit like a sports commentator saying "this is the largest crowd I've seen in 10 years." Michellecrisp (talk) 05:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: This is simply stating what ha sbee nreported, not glorifying Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 22:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  A lot of things get reported in Parliament etc but does not mean they have to be included in an article. Wikipedia does not report everything about a person in their Wikipedia article, Hawke's article should be compared to a good article of an Australian politician. For example, there was no need to copy chunks from his maiden speech when all one has to do is read the link. or being a member of relatively minor organisations. Michellecrisp (talk) 07:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of crap gets said in parliament by all sides - politics in the parliamentary sphere in an Australian context is a bizarre test of wills and unless we had a neutral peer-reviewed source which actually measured such things (which to my knowledge there isn't - I don't see any statistical projections on aph.gov.au's website) I think it's safe to assume this comment probably falls into the same general bucket of hyperbole. Orderinchaos 22:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Attendance at maiden speech

message: I don't think this necessarily ought be classified as 'stub' class any more - thoughts? Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 22:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Class

message: While direct quotes can be useful in ensuring political statements are not misinterpreted, I'd argue this article has rather too many and in parts resembles just a collection of newspaper excerpts. I'd like to go through and turn some of the quotes into simple prose. I am aware this article has a number of "regulars" so wanted to gauge consensus on the supply or oversupply of quotiations before I changed anything. So - any other views? Euryalus (talk) 23:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't necessarily think the quotes in an of themselves are a problem per se, however, if the article can be made more readable, whilst still maintaining the integrity of the comments, then is certainly worth striving for. I just think we need to be careful - due to the apparent controversies here - that in doing so we don't misinterpret comments etc Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 00:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many quotes

message: Most of the references for this article are fine but a small number are effectively self-published - notably his maiden speech to parliament and his Parliamentary biography. Neither of these are externally fact-checked - the maiden speech is a direct transcript of the member's words and the biography is written by the Member's office and faithfully reproduced on the Parliament House website. Per the relevant guideline sources such as these are usable provided certainc riteria are met, including that they reference claims that are not contentious and there is no doubt who wrote them. the one condition that these sources may not meet is No.3 - that the point they reference is not "unduly self-serving".
On balance I think these soruces are sufficient for the points they attest to but it would be preferable if alternative references could be found to replace them. There is a reasonable amount of realible secondary sources about Hawke. I'll have a read through what I can find and imporve the references as I go, but anyone else is welcome to help with this task. Euryalus (talk) 06:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I agree with that, and will keep a look out for other sources. However, I don't think that the ones where they're used to date are particularly contraversial, but yes you are quite right in that it shuold be done. The only other point I would make is that his maiden speech would still be of use in the section which discusses his ideology.Auspoliticsbuff (talk) 09:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Self-published sources

message: "Hawke worked part-time in the private sector whilst studying at university in 1998, becoming an assistant-manager for Woolworths in the Hills District."
While I feel this section has been put in just so it can be said he hasn't lived off the public purse all his life, its still a little misleading to use "assistant manager" and is written in a way to elevate his importance.
 
Assistant manager of what within Woolworths? district assistant manager with Woolworths corporate division in the Hills district or assistant manager of the fruit and vegetable department or the night shift crew in one particular store? Maybe it would be more appropriate just to say Alex worked at Woolworths part time while studying at University. The sole citation link to Hansard with where Alex cites his career at Woolworths is also dead. Surfing bird (talk) 11:57, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Alex's Woolworths career

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