Talk:Lake Skadar/Archive 1

message: Stop changing it to Montenegrin language.
1) Constitution of Montenegro in its article 9 says that official language in Montenegro is Serbian. At the moment Montenegrin government has its site in 'Montenegrin' but that is understandable in the situation, and may as well be changed after the next elections, for example. That's too shakey to be taken for granted.
2) None of the major cultural institutions adopted Montenegrin language (check sites of the Academy and University of Montenegro, with specific section for Serbian language, not Montenegrin). Simply because Montenegrin language is stil in the proces of being invented by 10 people around Academy of Duklja for their own private purposes.
3) Studens and pupils are not taught Montenegrin in schools. They did learn Serbian until last year, when it was switched to 'mother tongue' (?) marking one name for all the Montenegrin, Serbian, Croatian, Muslim and Bosniak students. And this also can be changed after the elections, so it doesn't hold the water as a fact taken seriously.
For all this above, all your changes in this direction are nothing more but an obvious and pathetic attempt at provocation. I understand that as an Albanian you dislike Serbs by default, but as long as the standards above are not fulfilled, I will keep correcting the mess you are deliberatly making in this artice. PajaBG 18:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to 2003 census, 22% people in Montenegro speaks Montenegrin. Including myself, and my name is Milos, I'm far from being an Albanian. So let the Montenegrin stay besides Serbian. Serbian is official language in Montenegro, I agree, and it should stand first, of course.Nije bitno... 20:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: Stop changing it to Montenegrin language.
1) Constitution of Montenegro in its article 9 says that official language in Montenegro is Serbian. At the moment Montenegrin government has its site in 'Montenegrin' but that is understandable in the situation, and may as well be changed after the next elections, for example. That's too shakey to be taken for granted.
2) None of the major cultural institutions adopted Montenegrin language (check sites of the Academy and University of Montenegro, with specific section for Serbian language, not Montenegrin). Simply because Montenegrin language is stil in the proces of being invented by 10 people around Academy of Duklja for their own private purposes.
3) Studens and pupils are not taught Montenegrin in schools. They did learn Serbian until last year, when it was switched to 'mother tongue' (?) marking one name for all the Montenegrin, Serbian, Croatian, Muslim and Bosniak students. And this also can be changed after the elections, so it doesn't hold the water as a fact taken seriously.
For all this above, all your changes in this direction are nothing more but an obvious and pathetic attempt at provocation. I understand that as an Albanian you dislike Serbs by default, but as long as the standards above are not fulfilled, I will keep correcting the mess you are deliberatly making in this artice. PajaBG 18:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to 2003 census, 22% people in Montenegro speaks Montenegrin. Including myself, and my name is Milos, I'm far from being an Albanian. So let the Montenegrin stay besides Serbian. Serbian is official language in Montenegro, I agree, and it should stand first, of course.Nije bitno... 20:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: Since this is the English language wikipedia, the name used by English speakers, Lake Scutari must be used.  This is the name used in Rand McNally maps, Encyclopedia Brittanica, and MSN Encarta, etc.  Imperial78 16:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: In English, it is Lake Scutari

message: Lake Scutari is the Italian version. I was born in Bar (Tivar), Montenegro (Malizi) on Lake Shkoder in a village called Ljare (Serb-Croat: Livari). The area is called Shestan (Sestan in Serb-Croat)Which is an Albanian populated area. The fact remains that there is no such Lake Skadar. It is called Lake Shkoder not Scutari or what ever other variations you may have. It is named after the City of Shkoder im Albania. There is no such city named Skadar, this is just a translation from Albanian into Serbian of the city Shkoder. Plain and Simple.
-Met Ljarja —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.251.88 (talk • contribs) 05:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How old are you? Its 'Skadar' in Montenegrin, 'Shkoder' in Albanian, simple as that. Critikal1 12:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lake Sctuari? Its called Lake Shkoder.

message: :Add any additional comments:
Here's a non-biased vote from someone who's roots go into the region some 900 years (verifably...probably more though). Leave it as Scutari. I typed in Skadar and I got here just fine. I suggest that those of you that have an issue with this should start fighting your own battles, and leave those of us from the region laugh at how foreigners name our precious lake. ;)
2006-12-15T15:02:47 67.70.71.30
:That is exactly the point. You should not be redirected to what the "foreigners" think is the name, if in fact it is incorrect. It should be Skadar... and if Scutari has historical reference (as it sounds)... then it is included in the article. Rarelibra 21:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My first thought was that the article name for this lake should reflect the article name for the town it is named after: Shkodër a.k.a. Skadar a.k.a. Scutari. The article name should be "Lake Shkodër" then. But I'm not sure how this lake is known in e.g. scientific publications. Anything with "Scutari" seems rather outdated to me. Markussep 08:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: The tests recommended in Wikipedia:naming conventions (geographic names) are
#Encyclopedias: 
#*Done in Ezhiki's post above. This in itself demonstrates that Lake Scutari is widely used.
#Academic usage: Google Scholar and Google Books. 
#*This has been approached above; but the proper search phrase is "Lake Scutari" / "Scutari Lake" and so forth
#*Lake Scutari 158 books + Scutari Lake 70 books
#*Lake Skadar 49 books + Skadar Lake 29 books
#*Lake Shkodër 4 books +   Shkodër  Lake no books at all. 
#::::Wiki is NOT a popularity contest. If you found 1,000 books that talked about Yugoslavia, yet only 2 books on Montenegro, 3 on Serbia, 2 on Bosnia, etc.... does that mean that you keep using the name Yugoslavia? NO. Wiki states against using this kind of deduction to assign naming for articles. In this case, however, as you stated below Yugoslavia DID use the name "Skadar" (which means it was dominant before the countries split). So, in essence, that name should be used (as in the article I found IN ENGLISH by the Swiss). Rarelibra 18:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for showing the searches, PMAnderson :-) I can be soo lazy sometimes... - Best regards, Evv 21:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wiki states NOT to use "search engine results" unless for specific situations, and this is not one of those situations. This is an example of refusal to recognize the actual name of the lake - whether it be translated from the Montenegrin side or Albanian side. A 200-yr-old Venetian naming convention doesn't cut it. Rarelibra 18:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look at this: Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Identification of common names using external references. If you want to know what's the commonly used name in English, Google is a tool. But not the only one. BTW The Library of Congress country studies mentioned above are not very recent, resp. 1992 and 1990. Markussep 19:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Data

message: The link names are link names to articles about Lake SKADAR and must remain named as such. Rarelibra 15:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree in general (although "must" is a strong word :-), and have changed the link names accordingly: now each one reflects what it's used in each page. - Best regards, Evv 15:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Link names