Talk:Spear-thrower

message: The spear might be a weapon, but the spear-thrower is only an instrument
--Yak 20:18, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Much as the "gun" enhances the effect of a thrown bullet, no?  - Nunh-huh 20:23, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Weapon?) 

message: In the first paragraph, what is meant by "bearing surface?" It links to the Bearing dab article, but that didn't help me understand it. Is it as simple as "the surface that bears the dart" or am I missing something? Thanks, Throbblefoot 18:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote that sentence, and it's bothered me since then, but I couldn't think of  better way to phrase it.  This surface acts like a bushing, in that it has to hold a load while offering a slick surface to slide against.  I'll go ahead and re-link it to the type of bearing that I meant to refer to.--Joel 23:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! The new link is much more helpful! Throbblefoot 23:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bearing surface? 

message: The Wall Street Journal gave the pronunciation as (basically) rhyming with 'battle-battle' in an 18 Jan. 2006 article, and I also heard it used that way by Peter Woodard in the "Stone-Age Weapons" episode of Conquest, but the 'at-lat-uhl' pronunciation seems more common to me. Can someone cite a reference as to the correct pronunciation? JJL 15:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the IPA given (['a.tɬatɬ]) does not match the “.Wav file featuring the pronunciation of 'atlatl'” link – compare the sound at ɬ. -Ahruman 21:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always heard the atu-latul from my anthropology classes (or something like that, I'm bad with writing out pronounciations). So that seems closer to the "battle-battle" version. Ungovernable ForceThe Wiki Kitchen! 00:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Like JJL, I've also heard the 'attle-attle' pronunciation, and would like some solid source citation for the 'at-lahtl' pronunciation claimed here. ThuranX 00:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If this isn't too self-referential, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atlatl says, "ät-lätl". At http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atlatl we have "/ˈɑtˌlɑtl/" or "[aht-laht-l]". My (hard)copy of Webster's says "(ät'lät'l)" in its pronunciation section for that word (stress on the first syllable if it's not clear from that formatting....) Personally, I'd never heard the four-syllable "attle-attle" pronunciation until I read it here, and I've never seen it noted that way anywhere else.... Geeman 12:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: According to Frances Karttunen's An Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, the <h> in this context represents a glottal stop, as there is no [h] sound in Nahuatl. This is explicitly distinguished from vowel length, which is spelled with a macron, <Ā Ē Ī Ō>, in said dictionary. The entry for the word in question is spelled AHTLATL, not ĀTLATL (entries are in all capitals). Also, the combination <tl> is always a single affricate consonant, so it can't be divided by a syllable boundary. The correct IPA for the Classical Nahuatl word is therefore ['aʔ.tɬatɬ]. -- Goueznou, 96.248.112.199 (talk) 21:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: It would be good to have more specific sources for some of the statements in the History section.  For example, the word "atlatl" does not even turn up when I use Amazon.com's "search inside this book" function with Wise's The Conquistadores. I see that several reference books are mentioned in the Armor Piercing section here on the Discussion page, but would like to know which ones were actually used for the Aztec/Conquistador paragraph in the main article. Catawba 02:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for the History section 

message: Please put the imperial mesurements in SI units please.100110100 23:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Convert Imperial Mesurements To SI Units 

message: What is a '...hook...'?  I changed, '...It consists of a shaft with a hook, in which the butt of the spear rests....' to '...It consists of a cup, in which the butt of the spear rests....'.100110100 23:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hook??  Vs. Cup? 

message: as it deals with much more than atlatls - all the Palaeolithic European and Asian examples, for starters. Or maybe the bits about the Old World examples should be split out into a separate article? 81.152.169.19 20:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As the woomera gets a separate page, how about a general page on 'spearthrowers' with all the Old World egs, linked to pages on atlatls (used in their close geographic sense) and woomeras.  I live in the uK, studied archaeology and have never heard the term atlatl: spearthrower is used for the old world egs. 81.152.169.19 20:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I arrived here because of an atlatl link on haida, where it looked out of place; spear-thrower is what I've always seen for these objects, and like you I've never seen them assumed to be named atlatl for purposes anywhere outside of Mexico.  I've only every seen spear-thrower, though with a hyphen as you can see.  This move will require a formal "move/rename" process , though I don't see a POV quarrel about it.  The main problem is that even if I put it in the Haida article as Spear-thrower on a redirect, eventually someone will remove the redirect and the atlatl name will again reappear in the Haida article ,when it doesn't belong; the same argument applies to any other culture where spear-throwers were used (which were many).  The Haida have their own name for it, of course....Skookum1 (talk) 22:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest, turning the current spear-thrower redirect into an article on the type of generic object used in many cultures. However, retain this atlatl article to concentrate on the precolumbian weapon (only) & its particular cultural contexts. Similarly, woomera and any other culture-specific versions out there can be retained separately as well, with cross-references on the spearthrower article. --cjllw ʘ TALK 04:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the atlatl merits its own page. Consider the cited academic articles on it by name and e.g. the World Atlatl Association. Perhaps other variants also merit a page; we have pages for many types of swords, after all. JJL (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, the current situation is wrong, as people have been complaining for years (without any rebuttal), & I think I will shortly do something about it. I'm not sure that there is enough material specific to Atlatl or Wooomera to main separate articles necessary at the moment. Johnbod (talk) 15:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: This page should be renamed?

message: "The Aztecs reinvented the atlatl after the arrival of the Spanish conquistadores in their lands and they were used extensively during the resulting war."
If I remember correctly, in "El Museo Nacional de Atropología" in Mexico City there is a facsimile of a codex that records the migration of the Mexica (pronounced "me SHEE ca"), improperly called "Aztecs, from their legendary land of origin, "Aztlan," to the shores of Lake Texcoco (tesh CO co), that is where Mexico City is now located.  The codex was purely pictorial but was accompanied by a narrative in Spanish (and maybe in English as well).  If memory serves me right, according to this narrative, the Mexica adopted the bow and arrow upon leaving Aztlan, but sometime during the century or so in which they journeyed to Lake Texcoco the Mexica, readopted the atlatl as their favorite means of casting projectiles, at least in battle. Perhaps this readoption was due to a commandment by their tribal god, Hitzilopochtli -- I don't quite remember.  But if this account is accurate the Mexica would have "re-invented" the atlatl sometime around the year 1300 AD, two hundred years before the Spanish Conquest.
Tim Reagan: 64.126.156.160 06:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aztec adoption of the atlatl 

message: At least three of the URLs down in the External Links section are expired (dead links). Shouldn't they be removed? I removed one of them recently, but somebody put it back in, so thought I would ask here.
:Yes, they should and I just did. It's possible the person didn't realize the link was broken when they reverted you, although you did mention it in an edit summary. Sometimes people just don't pay attention; it happens to the best of us. Ungovernable ForcePoll: Which religious text should I read? 05:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Force. I thought I had done something wrong since I'm new to Wik. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.113.34.7 (talk) 08:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expired Links 

message: Does anybody else get errors loading the Terberger PDF?  I saw that an IP editor made a recent edit to the sentence that gives this PDF as its reference, but I was unable to verify the document's content because it can't load properly.  Alternatively, does anyone have the book?  Wilhelm_meis (talk) 09:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terberger PDF 

message: From the article: 
"History shows that the Spanish feared the Aztec atlatl above all other weapons."
Who is this History person and how do they show it? :-) A reference please and less anthromorphisation maybe? ... --mgaved (talk) 10:32, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: History will teach us nothing - however history teachers will!·Maunus·ƛ· 01:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is this "History" person then? :-) 

message: Spearthrower use is evidenced during the Upper Paleolithic of western Europe, from the Upper Solutrean (+/- 17,500 BP) until the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic (+/- 12,500 BP) in southwest France, Switzerland, eastern Germany and Spain (Cattelain 1988, 1989; Cattelain and Stodiek 1996; Stodiek 1993).
In Projectile technology, edited by Heidi Knecht, 1997, New York: Plenum Press, 408 p.
ISBN: 0-306-45716-4
The Wiki datation reference comes from a popularizing work, with old references (1930)! There has been some improvement in archaeology...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.134.13.167 (talk) 08:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caution on Datation 

message: Atlatl are sometimes used in modern times for hunting. There are meetings and events where people can throw darts. There is one in Rhode Island and one in Lexington held yearly.
Please this is an encyclopedia let's try to be more specific.  There are according to Wikipedia 21 places in the United States named Lexington.  I am guessing from a quick Google search that you refer to Lexington KY but I can't be sure so I wont edit.  Please state which Lexington you mean.  Thanks.
67.140.255.223 (talk) 03:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lexington??? 

message: I just noticed that there is no link to the corresponding article in German, named "Speerschleuder".
( After some searching I discovered the article exists. )
I would put it in, if I knew, how to...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.60.137.200 (talk) 07:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link missing 

message: I have merged the content from Spear-thrower, which was nearly a duplicate article, into this article. It was split out back in September 2011 by User:Johnbod in this edit, but copied a lot of the content; this article is the older and better-developed one. I'm no expert on the subject, but the large crossover between the articles suggests there was no need for separate ones. It seems to me that 'atlatl' and 'spear-thrower' are simply different names used for the same broad category of device. Robofish (talk) 20:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You should have raised it before, not after. Spear-thrower was in fact longer and "better-developed". The general name Spear-thrower should be used if they are merged. Note the many sections above complaining before the articles were demerged. Rename proposal added below. Johnbod (talk) 22:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This was a really bad merge. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:50, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Spear-thrower]] merged 

message: The Title of this article should be ATLATL and "Spear Thrower" should re-direct to it.
You wouldn't call a musket a "Lead Thrower". Josh81884 (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree completely. Romans used metal spears for very short distances when mounted on horses and were considered spear-throwers and should be separate from all other topics. The atlatl should have its own page as it is a specialized and unique stand-alone instrument. Chucking/arrow chucking (one who throws things bare-handed) is completely different as well and should have its own page. These are all very different techniques and very different objects and should never be lumped together. ArrowChuck (talk) 18:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  All Wrong 

message: According to the Wikipedia style guide, two words should be hyphenated if they are used as an adjective or an adverb, but not when used as a noun, so spear thrower shouldn't be hyphenated. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen#Object.E2.80.93verbal_noun_compounds sometimes these are hyphenated if one of the words is a verb. Senor Cuete (talk) 16:01, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  No hyphenation 

message: The article states in the Design section, "Several Stone Age spear-throwers (usually now incomplete) are decorated with carvings of animals: the British Museum has a mammoth, and there is a hyena in France. Many pieces of decorated bone may have belonged to batons de commandement." 
This sentence is unclear. Does the British Museum have an atlatl with a CARVING of a mammoth or is it made of mammoth bone with carvings on it?" I'm assuming the carvings feature mammoths and hyenas but this is not totally clear and the sentence is ambiguous. Since there is no citation for the claim it is impossible to check what the original author meant by this.
Further down in the article in the bâtons de commandement section the last sentence reads, "Another theory is that they were "arrow-straighteners", and the examples in the 1920 illustration at right are so labelled." 
There is NO illustration to the right which leads me to believe that the image was either removed or the person who added this information was copy and pasting it from elsewhere. Either way it is a problem. 65.126.91.226 (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Several Issues 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Spear-thrower. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090905030419/http://www.historicvermont.org:80/chimneypoint/atlatl/index.htm to http://www.historicvermont.org/chimneypoint/atlatl/index.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 06:42, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Spear-thrower. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20051109021444/http://www.msu.edu:80/~doneycar/refatl.html to http://www.msu.edu/%7Edoneycar/refatl.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121023093431/http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_image.aspx?image=com1369a.jpg&retpage=21233 to http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_image.aspx?image=com1369a.jpg&retpage=21233
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 20:45, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm deleting the sentence on the Shoningen Spears. These have been demonstrated to be thrusting or throwing spears, and not atlatl darts. See the second paragraph of the Introduction in Shea, John J. 2006. "The Origins of Lithic Projectile Point Technology: Evidence from Africa, the Levant, and Europe." Journal of Archaeological Science 33(6): 823-846.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by KolnirGigja (talk • contribs) 16:18, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shöningen spears were not atlatl darts 

message: Propulseur, Basketmaker atlatl.
atlalt subtypes:
*hook type (standard one)
*loop type atlatl
*fork 'n' cord atlatl (Lovelock Cave atlatl) Setenzatsu.2 (talk) 21:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other named types 

message: I saw this article about a month ago. I thought I would place it here so someone more familiar with the topic could decide if & how to include it.
*
*
Peaceray (talk) 18:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible finger loops of Paleolithic spearthrowers