Talk:Ku Klux Klan/Archive 2

message: Users User:crosstar, User:Thivierr and I have been going around in circles a little about the external link to
:http://www.nationalist.org/docs/history/fbi.html
I feel that the link is simply an attempt by crosstar to promote "The Nationalist Movement" (http://nationalist.org), whose logo his username refers to. The actual article he links to barely even mentions the KKK. I would like to avoid a revert war, but I feel the link is an inappropriate attempt at self-promotion, and I'd encourage crosstar instead to create an article on his organization, if he feels it's sufficiently notable.--Bcrowell 17:17, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: link to nationalist.org

message: I thought I should mention here that I've nominated these for deletion, since they had links in and out of this page, and they seemed to be attempts to sneak in the Klan's self-mythologizing and propaganda under the radar.--Bcrowell 17:19, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: deleting [[Fiery cross]] and [[KKK costume]]

message: Hello. I'm new here so I'm not going to jump right in and edit anyones work right off the bat. I could be wrong and I really don't know how to completely do the edit thing yet. Here are the text changes I would like to recommend just to polish things up. What do you all think?
(Rework this Paragraph slightly.) 
In an 1867 convention held in Nashville, the Klan was formalized as a national organization under a "Prescript" written by George Gordon, a former confederate brigadier-general. According to one oral report, Gordon went to General Nathan Bedford Forrest in Memphis, and told him about the new organization, to which Forrest replied, "That's a good thing; that's a damn good thing. We can use that to keep the niggers in their place."[2] Forrest went on to become the nationwide leader of the first Klan. A few weeks later, former slave trader and confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest was selected as Grand Wizard, the Klan's national leader. The Prescript states as the Klan's purposes:[3]
# conferate should be cap.
# no hyphen in brigadier general(should be cap. if used as name title.... Confederate Brigadier General George Gordon)
#There are two subjects in this paragraph. It starts out talking about Gordon and his Prescript, it then jumps to Forrest briefly then back to Gordons Prescript. Remove the part about Forrest from this paragraph and stick to the prescipt topic.(Forrest info re-inserted in section dealing with Forrest).
#There are two sentences saying the same thing, only one is needed. Remove line 'Forrest went on to become the nationwide leader of the first Klan. (both deal with Forrest and neither belongs in this paragraph)
#Prescript text needs moved up closer to rest of Paragraph.
New paragraph reads: 
In an 1867 convention held in Nashville, the Klan was formalized as a national organization under a "Prescript" written by former Confederate Brigadier General George Gordon. The Prescript states as the Klan's intended purpose:[2]
"First: To protect the weak, the innocent (continue as originally written)
(Rework next Paragraph) 
Stripped of obfuscation and attempts to protect themselves from accusations of treason, this is essentially a statement that the Klan's purpose was to resist Congressional Reconstruction. The word "oppressed," for example, clearly refers to oppression by the Union Army, and "peers" implies that white Southern property holders should be protected from carpetbaggers and uppity freedmen. During the Reconstruction the South was undergoing drastic changes to its social and political life. Whites saw this as a threat to their supremacy as a race and sought to end this process. Due to Congress enacting laws that promoted racial equality, southern whites could not turn to the law in order to regain their power through the Democratic Party.
# Obfuscation? Wow, that a big word. Let me get out my dictionary and look that baby up... ahh, it means obscurity. It's not needed.
# This Paragraph starts out in present tense (attempts, is, refers) then changes to past tense. Let's use past tense all the way through.
New Paragraph reads: 
Attempting to protect Klan members from accusations of treason, the prescript was essentially a statement that the Klan's purpose was to resist Congressional Reconstruction. The word "oppressed," for example, clearly referred to oppression by the Union Army, and "peers" implied that white Southern property holders needed protection from carpetbaggers and uppity freedmen. During the Reconstruction the South was undergoing drastic changes to its social and political life. Whites saw this as a threat to their supremacy as a race and sought to end this process. Due to Congress enacting laws that promoted racial equality, southern whites could not turn to the law in order to regain their power through the Democratic Party.
(Next Paragraph, No Changes)
(Proclamation Paragraph: No Changes except endnote link)
 
(Re-insert Forrest info here with a little re-wording to opening sentence) 
In a newspaper interview,[5] Forrest boasted that the Klan was a nationwide organization of 550,000 men, and that although he ...
New Paragraph starts: 
According to one oral report, Gordon went to Memphis to see former Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest shortly after the 1867 Nashville convention and told him about the newly formed organization. Forrest remarked, "That's a good thing; that's a damn good thing. We can use that to keep the niggers in their place."[4] A few weeks later, former slave trader and Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest was selected as Grand Wizard, the Klan's national leader.
In a newspaper interview during the summer of 1868,[5] Forrest boasted that the Klan...... (Continue as originally wriitten)
(One more edit in end of next Paragragh) 
Like Forrest's public denial of his membership in the Klan, his order abolishing it may have been intended merely to protect Forrest himself from blame for its activities.[6]
1. It isn't necessary to use Forrest's name twice in same sentence. Change to:
Like Forrest's public denial of his membership in the Klan, his order abolishing it may have been intended merely to protect  himself from blame for its activities.[6]
2. If you go with the proposed text changes, the endnote links need to be adjusted : [2] becomes [4], [3] become [2], [4]becomes[3],
3. Also, with this text I would change the order of the pictures: picture of Forrest moves down three spots, picture of 3 arrested Klansmen moves up one, cartoon picture of soldiers with flag goes to top of section (Forrests original spot)JoeNobody 17:42, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi -- No need to be shy! Generally the best thing to do is just go ahead and edit things as you see fit, unless you're really uncertain, or think your changes might be controversial. Most of what you said sounds fine to me. I do disagree about two things. (1) "Attempting to protect Klan members from accusations of treason, the prescript was essentially a statement that the Klan's purpose was to resist Congressional Reconstruction." There's a logical problem here, because the two are antithetical: they wanted to oppose the government, but they were trying to make it *sound* as though they weren't trying to oppose the government. (2) I disagree about moving the images around. The two cartoons reinforce the text next to them, by confirming its statements about the first Klan's purpose (which is different from what many people think).--Bcrowell 20:00, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Text Edit 

message: I have never studied this episode closely, but what I have read says that those who have studied the murder of Mary Phagan believe that the murderer was the local mill owner, who died in 1962.  Who has the hardest facts?
:Hi -- I believe the only two theories that are given much credence are (1) that Frank did it with help from Conley, and (2) that Conley did it alone.--Bcrowell 05:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary Phagan