Talk:Psychonautics/Archive 1

message: You might want to refer to a conference paper by me entitled 'Psychonautics: a model and method for exploring the subjective effects of psychoactive drugs' (Russell Newcombe, 1999). It can be found on the Drugtext website.
Can we reference this? It sounds a little bogus to me. Mark Richards 21:08, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Googling finds a few references in this format - seems legit, if pretty marginal. It's also a band's name. - DavidWBrooks 00:39, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  First remarks 

message: Paragraph 1 of this page defines a psychonaut as "a person who uses psychoactive entheogens as guides ... quite distinct from religious use...." But the page on Entheogens defines the term entheogens as "that which causes (a person) to be in God," i.e., clearly specifying the term as religious. I think that the real problem is a lack of NPOV on the part of the entheogens page and this page.
:I agree with you that the articles could be clearer, but I don't think it is necessarily an NPOV issue (if it is this is not evidence of such, merely writing that could be improved). However, the definition in 'entheogen' you refer to, 'that which causes a person to be in god', refers to the literal meaning of the Greek syllables that make up the word. The article then goes on to state: In its strictest sense the term refers to a psychoactive substance (most often some plant matter) that occasions enlightening spiritual or mystical experience, within the parameters of a cult, in the original non-pejorative sense of cultus. In a broader sense, the word "entheogen" refers to artificial as well as natural substances that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional shamanic inebriants, even if it is used in a secular context. Yes, this obviously includes -- but is not limited -- to religious uses.
:The distinction which is being made in the definition of psychonaut, I believe, although very unclearly, is that the term is not, or almost never used to refer to traditional religious use of entheogens. While a psychonaut may certainly seek or obtain spiritual and religious benefit from their substance use, the term is not used to refer to Amazonian shamans making traditional use of ayahuasca, or Native Americans using peyote in religious ceremonies. However, if you or I were to dose up in our bedrooms in the hopes of communing with God, the slang term psychonaut might very well apply. Does this make things clearer? If so I will attempt to improve the article as well along these lines. Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 18:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of note, the definition of entheogen is incorrect.  It doesn't mean to be in god, but the god within.   Entheogens are spiritual, not religious.  A psychonaut is a person who travels to uncharted realms of their mind (and entheogens certainly help with this), it could be spiritual, but it is more likely to be intellectual, or simply, "far out, man".  --Thoric 19:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictions with the [[Entheogens]] Page 

message: I have copied the article to paste to my own talk page,
and hope that you will join me there.
Thanks.
Prometheuspan 22:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, to whom are you referring to, and to which paragraphs are you referring to?  --Thoric 23:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, i have commented on much of what is below and added a few things to the article.  --Heah talk 04:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feb. 2006 

message: There are a variety of details which i think would be fair to include here in some form or another. Heah did an Awesome job of cleaning up this wreck, and I am totally thankful. However, Some of the "stubs" that got deleted in that task are still very worthy,
and I think, worth discussing, and probably, could stand a paragraph
or so on them. I personally still think that the POV issues are complicated enough, (and that I am operating from enough of a bias)
That its wiser to talk about it first and let the group edit later, 
than to jump in and go editing, creating possibly more stress for the
group actually over the long run.
Prometheuspan 04:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will try to respond to some of the things you include below with my thoughts. Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 05:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you could outline by comparing/contrasting with the current article to tell us exactly what you think is missing, that would be helpful.  it just seems that what you've placed below is just a really long list of stuff that reads like something off of [www.fusionanomaly.net fusion anomaly]- a site that i love dearly, but one that is very very different from the encyclopedic project at hand . . .  --Heah talk 21:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing details 

message: i've slightly rearranged this just so the page is easier to read, just by making sub headings instead of headings.  my thoughts on all of it will come a bit later . . .  --Heah talk 21:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prometheuspan's edits 

message: The Shamanic Perspective of Hallucination is that there is no
such thing as something which is "not real." Shamans choose to see
Visions, Hallucinations, and so forth as real communication from
other parts of the psyche, which are normally veiled from the conscious mind by brain hemisphere filters. (Without these filters,
the internal dialogue process would overwhelm the conscious mind,
as is possibly the case with Autism )
Shamans generate assorted cosmologies which include the Psychic realms, and thus from their perspective, a Hallucination is a real
event that happens on a different level of reality.
*This is in the article, more or less, in the "use of the term", although another sentence there might be appropriate.  --Heah talk 03:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shamanic Perspective of Hallucination

message: *Information on the importance and use of brain function/anatomy in relation to psychonautics is in the article; a section on how the brain functions doesn't go here, it goes in articles about the brain which get linked to.  --Heah talk 03:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Brain Anatomy]]

message: There are Several different areas of the Brain, Which are Known by Science to carry out specific functions. Science knows about this
mostly due to ElectroencephalographyAnd experiments where Brain
waves are monitored while a subject is given different kinds of problems to solve or subjected to different kinds of stimulus. 
( or, under the effect of a psychoactive substance.)
The Main Areas of the Brain are;
*1. The Brain Stem
http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stem
http://www.med.harvard.edu/AANLIB/cases/caseM/case.html
The Brain Stem is the lowest area of the brain, and its functions
are the hardest for the Ego mind to directly access in a trance State. Acessing the information of the Brain Stem (By entering a lucid Theta state and inducing information to be loaded into the imaginal stage.) may allow a person to experience dynamic levels of
micro process and biological functioning; For instance, the control
vectors and metaprocess governing the opening and closing of specific
valves in the vascular system, or, the metaprocess governing gastrointestinal chemistry.
Other capacities include higher level self induction techniques,
(Where, for example, a post hypnotic cue is used to return to a
Theta Trance state where access to the Brain stem is being mitigated
by loading into and out of the imaginal stage, and thus, very direct
control over specific state functions is obtained.)
*2. The Reptilian Brain Cerebellum
The Reptilian Brain is the part of us that is responsible for the more basic instincts, such as fight or flight, and stalking. "Psychotics" and "Sociopaths" may be simply operating
from the Reptilian Brain instead of the ForeBrain like the rest of us. The Reptilian Brain also encodes memory of need, motivation, and
gratification cycles, and so contributes immensely to subliminal processes including the formation of need meeting tactics.
The Reptilain Brain is very involved in motor coordination, and it should be noted that with each evolutionary stage of the Brain, subjective experience of Time slows, such that the Reptilain Brain
is noticing time at several hundred "instants" per second, Whereas the Mammalian Brain is noticing Time at only 2 or 3 Dozen "Instants"
per second, and the Forebrain is noticing time at between 16 and 20
instants per second. Applications for this in Trance Technologies include drastically improving reflex time and speed, and the phenomenon described by many crisis survivors as "Time Dilation"
is the direct result of this.
Acessing the Reptilian mind from the Theta or Delta Trance State;
* May enable a person to read the contents of the Instinctual self, (Which is useful in order to gain a better capacity for good tactics at meeting ones actual needs, and learning the differences between needs and wants or vices.)
* May allow a person to become aware of the internal bodies sensory
perceptions and apparatus, including biomagnetic perception.
*3. The limbic system
http://www.healing-arts.org/n-r-limbic.htm
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/limbicsystem.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system
Function: 
Controls Emotions ,Emotional Responses ,Hormonal Secretions ,Mood Motivation ,Pain and Pleasure Sensations 
Acessing the Limbic system via Alpha or Theta Trance States may enable the person to understand obscured or sublimated emotional
motivations and associations, memories, and personal cues. Many
serious problems could in theory be resolved by sorting the shadow
issues that are stored here. 
*4. The Mammalian Brain extrastriate cortex 
The Mammalian Brain
*5. The Neo-Cortex Neopallium Frontal lobe
*6. The Occipital Lobes
Control Vision, Color recognition, symbol recognition, and
visual internal dialogue. Alpha TRance States are useful for
Lucid Visualization equal to a computer Simulation, Lucid
Dreaming, Intentional "Halucination", and in facilitating
starting communications with the Delta and Theta Levels.
*7. The Left Hemisphere Lobes
*8. The Right Hemisphere Lobes
http://coe.sdsu.edu/eet/articles/dominance/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1892/
http://www.web-us.com/brain/LRBrain.html
*9. The Parietal lobehttp://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blparietallobe.htm
Brodmann_area
http://spot.colorado.edu/~dubin/talks/brodmann/brodmann.html
http://neuro.psyc.memphis.edu/NeuroPsyc/np-ugp-i-cortex3.htm
Prometheuspan 04:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hemispheres of Brain

message: *The article maybe could use a bit more on this, but i'm not convinced.  again, this isn't an article on brain function; to say (as it does) that different brain wave states engender different modes of experience and that psychonauts actively modify those brainwaves in their work should suffice. --Heah talk 03:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brainwaves

message: *Again, a bit more can probably go in about psychonautic perspectives on hallucination.  I'll work on that later or tomorrow.  --Heah talk 03:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Totemic]] [[Mythic]] [[Architecture]][[T.M.A.]]

message: A very important tool for the Psychonaut, A dream Journal
acts as the starting point for the PsychoNaut to create a personal
encyclopedia of their own symbolic internal dialogue. 
Prometheuspan 23:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Dream Journals]]

message: Some might say that Entheogens are EASY, If you want something HARD
Try Lucid Dreaming. The Results are the same, but one has a very
different cost.
Prometheuspan 23:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Lucid Dreaming]]

message: Sleep Deprivation teaches a Psychonaut
control over their own State of consciousness. When we sleep, we
go through the four brainwave patterns. Delta condition is deep rest,
and Theta Condition is Physiological upkeep, and healing.
Most people never experience a waking condition other than a Beta state. This is unfortunate, because Alpha, Delta, And Theta States
are difficult to be in while still awake, but if you can manage it,
you can use the mind in remarkable ways most people can't.
Prometheuspan 23:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Sleep Deprivation]]

message: *This and the following two subsections are covered in the article.  --Heah talk 03:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Egotism]]

message: *This is in there; a lot of stuff between this and my last post above is covered to the extent that it should be as well.  (again, particularly the brain function stuff.)  --Heah talk 03:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Metaphysics]]

message: *This and the next two things are covered as well.  --Heah talk 03:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Ritual; Its useful functions]]

message: Prometheuspan 00:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Entheogenic Protocols]]

message: This was added to the introduction tonight:
"It should be noted that this is considered a dangerous practice, and is in no way recommended, nor is it anything resembling a proven concept for an increase in brain function. It is in many ways flawed and violates the concept of observation, as somebody who is under the effect of a neural disrupting substance is impaired in their perception of what is occuring both in their minds and bodies."
I figured that something of this nature ought to be discussed before it actually goes into the article, so I took it out to repost here for discussion. What are your thoughts? The Chief 09:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following assertions from above are all the opposite of the NPOV way of writing: "this is considered a dangerous practice", "is in no way recommended", "nor is it anything resembling a proven concept for an increase in brain function", "It is in many ways flawed and violates the concept of observation", "somebody who is under the effect of a neural disrupting substance is impaired in their perception of what is occuring both in their minds and bodies."  Those views are delegitimating, one-sided, oversimplistic, and read like propagandistic writing serving to prop up the status quo Establishment-endorsed received view.  There is plenty of literature to mount a full attack against those asserted views and statements.  The pro-drug or nuanced and qualified counter-arguments, or opposing view, which is a not uncommon view throughout the literature, must be mentioned, to balance out and form a NPOV. MichaelSHoffman (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The original assertions were also "the opposite of the NPOV way of writing." Making undocumented and unreferenced assertions can get the material deleted. This article uses no references and can also be deleted. -- Fyslee / talk 14:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV re: legitimacy & efficacy of psychonautic practice