Talk:Brandon Teena/Archive 1

message: The grammar of the last 'rewrite' was pretty atrocious. Fixed. Discuss! -- RyanFreisling @ 23:36, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar check

message: The point is already made regarding the surgical status of Brandon Teena. Moreover, it is inaccurate to say "transgender, rather than transsexual". The definitions of transgender and transsexual are significantly vague enough to make the distinction in this context not only unimportant, but unwarranted. He may have been transgender, transsexual or both, but his surgical status was not the determinant. -- RyanFreisling @ 15:46, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccuracies v. redundancies

message: Please, don`t revert our version. It is a new category and the old will be delete. Thanks. --Barnaul 12:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean the "Hate Crimes" category or the "American Children" one?  If the latter, Brandon doesn't qualify. -- Susan Davis 23:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rv.

message: The emotional arguments as to pronoun usage above are understandable, but unsupported. Sex is a biological condition determined at the chromosomal (molecular) level. Briefly put, in humans (intersex variations aside) this means an xx karyotype for a female, xy for a male. Gender describes the physiological characteristics which identify (or distinguish) an organism's reproductive role. None of this is self-selected, though gender can be disguised through grooming, dress, hormone ingestion and under the knife. Brandon Teena was a female, although she attempted to self identify as a male (and presumably had every right to do this so long as she didn't gain unfair advantage through fraud or misrepresentation). In strictly cultural terms there is little argument against Brandon superficially self-identifying as a "he," but in objective, encyclopedic terms, she was a she. Even after so-called "trans-gender" surgery, she still would have been a biological female. However, given WP policy which stresses editorial consensus and (helpfully) strongly discourages edit warring, there's no reason to waste time asserting the notion she should be referred to as such in the article. As for her being a lesbian, as a female attracted exclusively to other females, Brandon was a lesbian who affected superficial male grooming and dress but retained observably female characteristics. How she chose to express her lesbianism is irrelevent (and again, her right). Her murder was a horrific crime and a tragedy. Never mind her criminal record, never mind how she misled some of the people who cared about her. She was given little chance (or time) to find happiness in her own way. Gwen Gale 20:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed one of the pronouns to she, where it was necessary.--130.245.235.109 09:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (snip out my post which was objected to) Gwen Gale 09:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And your addition of that 'Lesbian Avengers' comment is intended to be constructive how? Seems completely inappropriate to me to use such terms (a personal attack) when you know nothing about the editors you're attacking. Your case for female pronouns has been demonstrated to be flawed and in defiance of policy. That's the extent of it. The sexuality of your fellow editors isn't the issue, so don't make it the issue. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was meant as a total compliment and a gesture of respect. However I have zero wish to nettle anyone about this. I think you've expressed your concern in good faith. To show my good faith in return, even if we disagree on something about this article, I have retracted my entire post. Thanks for expressing your concern and please let me know if there is anything else I can do. Gwen Gale 18:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't have to delete it (it makes the thread all-but-incomprehensible) but thanks for your good faith. Overall, we just need to avoid speculations about the sexuality of other editors. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. Gwen Gale 18:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gender, sex, pronouns

message: It's wonderful to see these. The article still needs a citation supporting a description of Brandon as a "transgendered man" (especially since the article itself says there was no surgery or other medical procedure attempted along that line) and moreover, the assertion "there was no compelling evidence that" Brandon was a lesbian also needs support. Gwen Gale 20:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both cites support that Mr. Teena was a transgendered/transsexual person. One need not have surgery to be a transsexual (please familiarize yourself with the terms), in any case that ship (Mr. Teena confirmed as ts/tg) has sailed. I've corrected your improper name usage and your last point requires you to provide proof, not the proof of a negative.  -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First, please do not alter my comments on this page. Second, please provide a citation which supports the description of a pre-operative biological female transexual as a "transgendered man". Thanks. Gwen Gale 20:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you willingly and consistently use incorrect pronouns (and therefore disrupt Wikipedia) to prove your point, you may find yourself being criticized for that behavior. Please stop intentionally disrupting this article's talk page by doing so. Edits reapplied. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not being disruptive, I'm asking for citations. I mean, if your assertion is so self-evident, supporting it should be easy, right? Gwen Gale 20:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Transgender status is not defined by whether the surgery has already taken place or not. It's defined by the person's internal gender identity, regardless of how far they are or aren't along in the process of actually undergoing surgical sex reassignment. Bearcat 20:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Please support your assertion with a citation from a peer reviewed scholarly journal, thanks. Gwen Gale 20:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New citations

message: This article is lacking in context and background regarding Brandon's life. For example, there is nothing about her rejection by the military, nor her arrest for check forgery, the publicising of which led directly to her so called "friends" learning she wasn't a boy raping then subsequently murdering her and two others. The article also gives not a hint that she was in the habit of carefully witholding that information from people (including the females she dated). Gwen Gale 20:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to write an NPOV treatment f those points and I'm sure the article will be improved as a result. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion

message: Is disruptive in the context of this article. 'Gwen Gale', I'll ask you again to act respectfully (although you have reverted back your incorrect usage twice). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What incorrect usage are you referring to? Gwen Gale 20:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intentional misuse of pronouns

message: I have worked very hard to create a well-formed references section in this article, and populate it with detailed citations from various sources as to the crimes commited, Brandon Teena's self-identification etc. Please do not revert my edit wholesale, as it took me a long time to compile. If there is an issue with one or more of the sources I provided, please raise it to discussion on the talk page, and contrast with a source that refutes it, or else a more reliable replacement. 
I could not find a citation for the basing of the song Girls Don't Cry on Brandon Teena, and PSBs' website is flash-oriented, so I didn't even bother looking there because it can't be direct-linked. If anyone can find a link to an interview with them that explains the song's origins, that would be very helpful. 
Also, I rephrased the following sentence, because I felt it was awkwardly worded and possibly weasel worded: 
"As with many other female-bodied persons who live as men, it has occasionally been claimed that Brandon was a lesbian. However, there was no compelling evidence that this was true in Brandon's case."
LeaHazel : talk : contribs 20:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks LeaHazel. The change, supported by the cite you provided, seems helpful to me. Gwen Gale 20:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You wouldn't have had to revise your talkpost if you'd read the article -- or my talkpost -- to begin with. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 21:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding references