Talk:Bioresonance therapy

message: There is no evidence supplied above that bioresonance therapy does not work, it seems the information has been supplied to undermine the therapy without any facts. Bioresonance is practiced around the globe by individual practictioners and doctors. If the therapy had no merit it would not be widely available. There may be some cases of unscrupulous practictioners however this true in every profession and not exclusive to this practice. 
The above information claims devices continue to be sold despite efforts by trading standards officers, however suppliers of the equipment are freely available on the internet, it is hardly any underground movement. The above comments should be removed.
Why is the site Quackwatch listed as an authority on the efficiency of this therapy?  Quackwatch does not perform any in-house scientific blind studies to prove or disprove the effectiveness of the therapy.  Articles on the quackwatch page discuss a Mexico clinic that offered bioresonance as a cancer therapy.  The site does not give an indepth discussion the basic tenants of the therapy or explore the therapy clitically with any bit of impariality.  There may be differences in practitioners, equipment effectiveness, etc. that influence the overall theraputic results.  Does this mean the whole system should be labeled as quackery without futher investigation?  This site does the same for other therapies; scoffing at them without providing any evidence from in-house studies to back claims.  As such, why should this site be listed on the page as a proclaimed authority on what is quackery and what is not?  Do they have some FDA certification giving this authority that has not been promlagated?  If they do not have such certification, I suggest Quackwatch be removed from all sites as a source of authority on what is and is not good medicine and science.61.230.112.93 (talk) 03:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Quackwatch is a generally reliable source for  altmed topics, as has been determined many times in discussion at WP:RS/N. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 03:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  However 

message: All cells, organs, bones, muscles and tissue vibrate at their own rate or frequency and in complete harmony and make up the Body Energy Field (BEF). Therefore the whole body has a complex frequency make up which can change or become distorted when affected by illness or toxic substances.
Bioresonance makes use of a the body's own electro-magnetic signals, alters them and then feeds them back into the body as therapy to restore health or combat illness. Usually the signals are inverted so that peaks of electro-magnetic waves become troughs and vice-versa. Feeding this altered signal back into the body cancels out the pathological electronic information coming from viruses, bacteria, and chemical toxins. This causes the cells of the body to start pushing out and eliminating these disease-causing factors, and so the root causes of disease are removed from the body and healing can take place.
Bioresonance therapy can deal with the real, underlying causes of chronic and degenerative diseases. According to a scientist, Pschinger, the real cause of chronic disease is the accumulation of different kinds of toxins in the connective tissue, i.e. the space between the cells in the tissues of the body. Accumulated toxins block the cells' ability to receive oxygen, nutrients and eliminate metabolic wastes. The toxins eventually enter the cells and produce symptoms of chronic illness. 
The human body generates long-wave magnetic fields itself, e.g. when our heart beats. The oscillation energy of such fields results in regeneration, circulation and defence against infections in our cells. Best known of these are the currents flowing in the heart. They can be recorded on an ECG and from the curve produced it is possible to ascertain a normal function or to recognise heart diseases. In the same way that the heart produces its own bioelectrical signature pattern so do the other organs and systems within the body (e.g. brain,muscles, respiratory system etc).Bioresonance is a biofeedback therapy which can target, stimulate and boost the various bioelectrical signature patterns produced by the body to restore health and combat illness. 
 
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I think it is complete bollux, and certainly taking someone with an abnormal ECG (electrical, not magnetic) and throwing electricity at them in an effort to make their heart normal again is not a technique of any credibility, but someone may wish to pick at it piece by piece, identifiying and listing the logical fallacies and seeking citations for those things adduced as facts.  Midgley 11:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally, the quoted text comes from the Bioresonance Therapy page at www.newwaysclinic.com. Tearlach 10:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bioresonance Explained

message: This article is unreadable and makes not a lot of sense.
Rewrite should include 
+ objective description of the theory of Bio Resonance.
+ How it is applied (reiki, reflexology, electrical-based solutions, ...)
+ Benefits
+ Scepticism could be added. This is healthy when proof is difficult. However since Bioresonance is used by such agencies such a NASA there may be some grounds behind it (doesn't necessarily mean anything though).
swear words and unwarranted accusations do not help people make their own mind up as to whether the subject is believable or not
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Hello ! The german article is far better in my humble opinion. i may translate it into "ugly" english. but a native english-speaking person must correct my spelling after my translating. BTW: the french article is also better than this english stub version. michael Redecke 11:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry, was a mistake. there is no french page, but a dutch one. i was working for another german article and i confounded them. michael Redecke 13:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: this study is interesting, but has nothing to do with bioresonance. The word bioresonance can not be found in that text, and this is also the case for the word electric. The authors are not describing any electric or resonance phenomenon at all.  Redecke 00:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Partially correct. However the study clearly mentions " the observation of low-frequency fluctuations of the cell membrane in erythrocytes and in several nucleated cells '(white blood cell)' suggest that this phenomenon may be a general property of the living cell". The term frequency is evident. The article , as it stands, states " cells are to considered as resonating objects (with unknown frequency and energy however) ". What the  researchers have observed is that cells membrane fluctuate at a low-frequency. The word fluctuation means a motion like that of waves, recurrent and often more or less cyclic alteration, that implies a frequency and energy. The study clearly shows that these fluctuations have a pattern and occur at a low-frequency so it does provide some evidenciary support for what manufacturers are saying. To rule out the study because it does not include the word electric or bioresonance is being too selective and certainly showing a POV in the editing. It is likely that the researchers in the above study were not trying to prove bioresonance as such and they simply observed, as good researchers do, what happened under their instruments. Finally if you read the study you will note that the authors suggest that the dominant component of cell membrane fluctuations depends on the mechanochemical dynamic assembly of the membrane skeleton induced by the presence of mgATP, clearly they are talking about a mechanism involving energy. While the exact nature of that energy is not yet determined, you cannot rule out the possibility that there could be an electrical component to this effect. In fact other study have shown that mgATP not only produce energy but also act as a cyclotron at a molecular level and that such a cyclotron interact in a resonant manner with electrical fields in biological systems.NATTO 01:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Redecke that it's irrelevant. In any case, it's WP:OR - assembling background material to argue a novel interpretation ("A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article). . (And very shaky background at that; the cyclotron citation tracks back to Corentin Louis Kervran's transmutation theory, which is hardly accepted science). If you can find a reputable third party source saying the Levin and Korenstein study is relevant to bioresonance, fine. Otherwise... 86.142.249.213 07:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Anon 86.142.249.213|86.142.249.213. No argument was made in the article - only results of research on biological system listed. Of course we would not want to let facts get in the way of prejudice. Interesting to note that the only references in this article are one sided. I wonder why ? Hum let me think ? AR NATTO 10:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hello natto ! I started to collect data related to bioresonance many years ago, and I never saw any scientific study supporting the bioresonance-concept. That is the simply reason why I am unable to add any neutral pro-bioresonsnace link. Morell (who died in 1990) was a senior scientology member here in Germany, and many companies producing BR-devices over here are linked to scientology (Regumed/Brüggemann). Morell was described in a german scientology-newspaper (College) as a high rank scientologist, and Brüggemann is member of IAS international association of scientologists as a Patron (>40.000 USD donations to COS). Redecke 12:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Hello Redecke. I do not know if there are studies directly corroborating bioresonance as described above. You say there are none and that is fine because I do not have a point of view on the issue and I am more or less neutral regarding Scientology. People can and will believe what suits them. However I always remember the words of Carl Sagan " Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ", in addition there is at least some scientific evidence to support the fact that human red and white cells do "resonate" at a low frequency and that this cyclical fluctuation is driven by energy though the mgATP mechanism ( a well accepted scientific mechanism ) and that electrical energy may be involved. That is what the studies mentioned showed. Whether this cell "resonance" has anything to do with what the manufacturers of bioresonance devices claim, that is another matter entirely. I simply think that valid studies in peer-reviewed journals should not be ignored because there are no studies supporting the effectiveness of bioresonance devices. Please lets keep an open mind on this issue so we do not throw the baby with the water. :-) NATTO 19:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: We put things in an encyclopaedia becuase there is evidence they happen, not becuase there is no evidence they do not.  Low frequency and high frequency are less useful descriptions fo this than the frequency, in Hz.  The Rife stuff was radio frequency, IE MHz range.  I am unconvinced, but without reading the article cited, that the phenomenom of _resonance_ rather than an _oscillation_ is being discussed, teh two being different.  Midgley 20:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  My previous discussion was with Redecke who appears to have at least reserched the issue instead of issuing broad statements based on his POV. If you first took time to read the study you would have noted that the frequencies are clearly noted in the study, between 0.2 to 30 Hz. Whether you are unconvinced or not is not the point and certainly humanity is not waiting for that. The point is that there is peer-reviewed research that has been done demonstrating that red and white cells do "resonate" at the above frequencies and that "resonance" is driven by an energy producing mechanism based on mgATP reactions. Nothing more , nothing less. This is published and corroborated by other studies. NATTO 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many people have studied BR in the past, especially over here from where BR is coming. So, there has been published  a lot of stuff (scientific and not-scientific articles) about that bioresonance, and I am sorry to say that I am unable to present any work showing that BR's results are reproducible or suited for a serious diagnosis in medicine. BR is used in alternative medicine for diagnostic and therapeutical purposes. And for this reason a medical test or therapy must show that it is at the same time harmless and effective. Some people may argue that the effectiveness of a medical test must not be proven in a scientific way, if it has been shown that it is (at least) harmless. A new method must always show it's effectiveness, and I don't ask you NATTO for instance to prove me or to show me a well-made study showing that lemonjuice is not effective for treatment of hair-loss, otherwise I would say: lemonjuice is effective because nobody could prove that it is not. Resonance: every object has ist own (mechanical) resonance-frequency für sound waves, even my computer-mouse on my desktop or a pencil. This fact does not link any pencil to BR. Electric currents-conducting objects have furthermore a high-frequency resonance frequency related to it's length and the speed of light. So every paper-clip made out of metal has it's own frequency and my eye-glasses have also their own. The human body has also a resonant frequency (better to say range) related to the length. I am 1.85 m and my frequency is around 81 MHz (VHF). And a single isolated RBC will resonate the best (7µm) at 21,4 GHz (microwaves). These values may differ a bit (a few percent) because the speed of electromagnetic waves will be higher than in air in this case. I was talking about scientology to show not only the links between Hubbards E-meter and BR-devices, but to show also the link to scientologists (at least here in Germany). Some BR-devices have been opened and analyzed (at least one by an engineer) and reports about their construction were published. In at least two cases, a resistor-measuring circuit has been found (Hörner M 1995 and Lee C 1997). This leads us to suppose that BR is based on the same principle than the well known lie-detector (the classic lie-detector as used in the USA usually uses some more parameters however), E-meter (has also been opened several times) and EAV-devices according to Voll (principle is well known). Again S Levin and R Korenstein study: I repeat: their work has nothing to do with BR. We cannot include a link to every study containing the word resonance or frequency hoping that it has somethink to do with BR. Michael Redecke 15:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Redecke. Thank you for the information. Resonance is thus an accepted fact in biological systems. My point is that this information, should be included with references from peer-reviewed studies, in the article. The proven scientific reality is one thing. the claims ( unproven or otherwise ) made by the manufacturers of BR devices is another. One does not exclude the other. Again we are not here to present a POV over another but to neutrally present all sides of the issue.  By including peer-reviewed evidence that resonance is a reality in bilogical system with evidence as to some of the mechanisms of action involved, I simply wanted to allow the reader to be informed such, with other relevant information, so they can make up their own mind as per WP:NPOV. Thanks again for your open minded approach :-) NATTO 23:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No; it still falls foul of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. That the Levin and Korenstein study can be interpreted as supporting bioresonance (about which it says nothing) is your original assertion, not that of any reliable third-party source. 81.155.126.4 16:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Resonance is driven by an external source of energy.  Sing into a wine glass, the resonance doesn't depend upon a source of energy within the glass.  Spontaneous oscillation is what is being described, and I'm not convinced that it is oscillation in anything like the radio/audio electrical sense that is being discussed in relation to cells.  ATP is the cell's main energy source for anything.  THe characteristic of this sort of health fraud is that technical terms are used in ways that almost seem to make sense, but eitehr deliberately or due to ignorance are not in fact accurately applied.  Midgley 21:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: S Levin and R Korenstein study

message: This article is at present offensively bad, not just the semi-literate writing or the pseudoscientific waffle, but the reintroduction of arrant nonsense with the apparent aim of getting credibility in Google searches from WP.  Midgley 21:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree: this article contains statements I have never heard from a BR-related company or a supporter of bioresonance. I will try to compile a short text citing precisely what the BR-device producing industry is telling us or claiming. At the same time I will write a short text with facts known about BR from a neutral point of view. I will need about 2 days, and I will present these two text here on the discussion page. concerning studies: many are in german only, some have been payed by the manufacturer of br-devices and some have a very low quality. So: not every study is citable. Redecke 15:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP used for Scamming 

message: (translation made from german texts into ugly English, citations in  )
Franz Morell (inventor) explaining his bioresonance: ...basic principle is deletion of pathologic information, that is stored inside the body - precisely within the body fluids (intracellular and extracellular) or stored in the DNA within the cell nucleus.....and he adds: ......Deletion of pathologic electromagnetic waves by inverting them and retransmitting them back into the body....According to Morell, the human body is able to produce healthy (=harmonic) em waves and pathologic (disharmonic) em waves. A br-device is able to detect these waves, and a Separator called circuit is able to distinguish between them, and able to invert only the diharmonic waves. Morell gives no description of that separator. The addition of the disharmonic waves present in the body and the artificial inverted waves from the br-device should end in a deletion of the disharmonic waves. It is impotant to know that Morell distinguishes between a preceding measuring phase and a later therapy phase The reaction of the br-device transforming the incoming signals into the follwing healing waves is called -bioresonance by own waves-  by Morell. Brüggemann who (I suppose) copied Morells idea, and who used the word BICOM instead of bioresonance (I suppose to avoid legal actions) for his devices, said: ...electromagnetic steering waves are surrounding the body and are present in it and via the electrodes and cables they can be transferred into the bicom-device. They contain exactly the physiological and pathologic information needed for a individual therapeutical signal. It is the aim of the therapy to reduce pathologic information or even to delete it, and eventually to reinforce physiological information. Inside a bicom device these signals are separated through a filter and inverted electronically. The inverted pathological signal will be retransmitted to the patient and will overlay the signals present.....regulating forces within the body will be disburded.... Later Morell introduced in the eighties another device, using light (red,yellow and blue), the Mora-color therapy. (voices from not BR-related experts will follow tomorrow) Redecke 16:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Redecke. There is mention of harmonic waves. We know that healthy cell membranes do produce "fluctuations" at a specific frequency range under an energy producing system . Frequencies are of course characteristics of waves. I have not done a thorough pubmed search on published research on the above topic but there seem to be a reasonable amount of it. As mentioned earlier this in itself does not prove that BR devices are effective or do what they are claim to do but it is still valid evidence that there is a biological reality involved. NATTO 23:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Frequencies are of course characteristics of waves" is one of those phrases which causes me to wonder whether the person uttering them has any idea what they are discussing.  There is a logical fallacy in there of course.  As examples of one thing wrong with the idea consider for instance is there an autistic wave?  autism (frequency), is Smallpox which declined in frequency after Edward Jenner invented vaccination a wave or even oscillatory in nature? Midgley 21:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Of course I was referring to the number of repetitions of a periodic process in a unit of time  Definition of frequency and a : a disturbance or variation that transfers energy progressively from point to point in a medium and that may take the form of an elastic deformation or of a variation of pressure, electrical or magnetic intensity, electrical potential, or temperature b : one complete cycle of such a disturbance Definition of wave. All in the context of the above comments by User:Redecke. NATTO 00:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Statements made by br-devices manufacturer and supporters

message: From Edzard Ernst, a study of the pseudoscientific language used in BT (in German only I think; I'm trying to secure a copy):
* 
Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 21:10, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, I'm not sure we should attach too much credence to a study that purports to have measured the "general condition of body, mind and soul" of the subjects. As far as I'm aware, the soul has proved somewhat resistant to scientific investigation, beyond initial inconclusive attempts to determine its mass AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:09, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

text: The availability of the full text of the journal article is not the question here.  The journal article exists, and can be accessed through various means.  The Resource Exchange exists to help users gain access to full sources when needed]]. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:14, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

text: Any biomedical content we include should be in line with WP:MEDRS. A single trial, is not. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 13:17, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

text: We (generally) don't use primary studies for biomedical information, whatever their outcome. Ernst's paper would seem to be a review of language however, not a biomedical study. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:01, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

text: Ref 5 is a secondary source. It cites the article of Ref 6, which I guess is provided here for that reason - one okay use of primary sources is to flesh-out the details of secondaries. I wouldn't argue with its removal, though. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:45, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pertinent source 

message: "It is claimed to be related to similar concepts in Traditional Chinese Medicine, especially acupuncture."
There has been no citation added for two years, and I'm considering removing this sentence. In the greek translation of this article, I didn't include it at all. Thoughts? --Mg009 (talk) 03:07, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:SOAP as well as WP:FORUM and WP:TALK. Thanks --McSly (talk) 00:20, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited relation to acupuncture 

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