Talk:Napoleon Zervas

message: Ok, I'm referring to some recent edits. There is an Albanian side who sees Zervas as pretty much the ethnic cleansner of the Cham Albanians, and there is a Greek side that sees him as a WWII hero. I'm going to say right now that both sides should be viewed with care. --Sulmues (talk) 18:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thank you for the links, which show that you are a supporter of the Genocide of the Cham Albanians. Now, the Germans lost the war and were not expelled from Germany. The Chams were expelled from lands that they inhabited from centuries by the Greek government. --Sulmues (talk) 19:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If it were a genocide, then these 25,000 would not have survived to tell the tale. It certainly was an act of ethnic cleansing, but not "genocide", which is a heavily loaded term and should be used very very carefully. I also caution against labelling anyone a "supporter of genocide". The expulsion of the Chams was certainly traumatic, immoral and illegal, but setting cries for vengeance and restitution aside (which is what labelling an event as "genocide" amounts to nowadays), expelling 25,000 people is nowhere near to the organized murder of Jews and Armenians. As for the second statement you made, Sulmues, you are quite wrong: several million Germans were expelled from the German lands that became part of Poland and the Soviet Union, not to mention the fate of the Sudeten Germans... Theyn too had lived in their lands for centuries. You should also remember that the collaboration of a number of Chams is well-established, as are Italy's attempts to use their presence against Greece's territorial integrity both before and during the war. Whether that justifies the wholesale expulsion of an entire population is another matter altogether, but in the climate of the times, such an act was certainly neither unique nor entirely without justification in the minds of the perpetrators. Regarding the article, the two views must both be presented, but Zervas (for whom BTW I have no personal sympathy) should not be represented as some sort of Greek Himmler, because he was not... Constantine   ✍  21:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hope this is enough to resetore the initial collaboration-expulsion sequence version. The current version -cherry picking Mazower- has lead to the worst pov.Alexikoua (talk) 05:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the stuff that was not directly pertinent to Zervas himself.  The stuff about the ethnic cleansing being organized by the British, etc...Hope this goes some way towards cooling things down.  Athenean (talk) 05:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I have to add the English WP here. Sorry but I had to revert. Zervas was deeply involved. @Constantine: I like your measured approach. I am not aware of any genocides that have ever succeded. And for that matter the Armenian one didn't either, neither did the Holocaust. I am probably hurrying too much calling it genocide, but as you admitted, it was ethnic cleansing: not as much by killing but by expelling. Now hadn't the Holocaust started in the same way in the 1930s? However Zervas was deeply involved and it has to be noted. --Sulmues (talk) 13:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Genocide constitutes a deliberate, planned, and meticulous campaign of extermination of a people by a state or other organization, regardless of whether it succeeds. This does not under any circumstances apply to the expulsion of the Chams. Certainly Zervas was involved in the affair as EDES' military leader, so I agree that this must be mentioned. Constantine   ✍  13:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

text: PS, I rewrote the section to cover the events in a more concise manner, and removed the WP England tag. British officers may have been tangentially involved, but that does not mean that Zervas falls under the project's scope... Constantine   ✍  13:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Collaboration needs to be re-added, since he dealt with the combined Axis-Cham forces (liberation of Paramythia etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 14:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember that he participated in the Pangalos coup, unfortunately can't find this on gbooks.15:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: I have full-protected the article for 31 hours for edit warring. Please discuss content issues on this talk page and refrain from edit warring once the protection expires. Regards, –MuZemike 19:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full-protected 

message: I fail to see how this part [] can be considered sourced. In fact contains multiple issues: c-e, structural even factual issues since Zervas did not order the advance against Paramythia.Alexikoua (talk) 08:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent disruption

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thread_title:  External links modified