Talk:Catalan phonology

message: I'm in the process of formatting the article. This means:
*IPA conversion: almost done, spotted a few mistakes of my own. See IPA in Unicode. If you add to the article, use  to insert phonemic or phonetic notation, even if it is not a specific IPA character.
*Citation forms: for Catalan words (or English words) used as examples, Wikipedia italics; for glosses, "double quotes". For example: llop "wolf". No parentheses or commas.
*For spellings: italics. I'll be changing single quotes (like 'qu') to italics (qu).
*Latin words: I don't think it's OK to cite Latin in Small Caps just because it's traditional to do so in some grammar books, or as if Latin were more important than other languages so as to deserve a different notation.
Input on this would be appreciated. --Pablo D. Flores 13:09, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please convert the article to being just a phonology. Having a sound-to-orthography table at the bottom of the article isn't a problem, but the focus is way too much on spelling rather than phonology right now. The article is a pretty hard read, too, since it consists of almost nothing but bullet points. Try to convert it into more free-flowing prose. Peter Isotalo 08:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyediting guidelines

message: Under vowels, shouldn't it say "/ə/ e, è. Only in unstressed position"? I'm not exactly a linguistics expert so I might be wrong, but right now it contradicts the info under the other vowel categories... ugen64 01:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: Why is the Catalan language's use of the Latin alphabet not discussed here?  I wanted to find information about Catalan's use of the tilde but can find no such description here, nor in the Catalan language article.  This seems a serious omission.  Badagnani 10:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Already added in Catalan orthography article. Perique des Palottes (talk) 15:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of tilde 

message: This article needs a lead paragraph.  Badagnani 23:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead paragraph 

message: The article's scope is a bit muddled between phonology and orthography.  Other than Latin, all the other phonology pages are just about the phonology.  I think there should be a Catalan phonology page and Catalan orthography page, the latter of which would be one and the same with Catalan alphabet.  If nobody opposes, I'll probably start it myself in a few days.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 00:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scope

message: The article Unreleased stop includes Catalan as a language in which final stops are not released. However, what I have heard from on-line pronunciation files of Catalan indicate that this is not the case; there is an audible release at the end of words such as Cornet and Montjuïc. Being a native speaker of Korean and being somewhat familiar with Thai, both of which do not release final stops, I hear a clear difference from the way final [t] or [k] would be pronounced in Korean or Thai and the way they are in these sound files. Maybe the sound files do not represent native pronunciations, or maybe the claim that Catalan has unreleased stops is wrong. Which is the case? --Iceager (talk) 12:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't seen anything about that, but I don't have any reason to believe that the sound files aren't native or near-native pronunciations.  We can remove the information from Unreleased stop— Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 17:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreleased stops in Catalan? 

message: On Catalan rising diphtongs and afluixar:
Catalan rising diphthongs (that is, starting with [w] or [j]) are only possible in these contexts:
* In word initial position, eg.io-gurt
* Just after another vowel, that is, sequence must be vowel + [j],[w] + vowel, eg. ve-uen, ve-ien
* Only [w] just after /g/ or /k/, that is, sequence must be /g/,/k/ + [w] + vowel, eg. aigua, quan
So it cannot be possible that:
"Catalan possesses two sets of diphthongs in variation; [wi] varies with [uj] (as in afluixar  [aflujˈɕa~aflwiˈɕa] 'to loosen') and [iw] with [ju]."
And the example cited afluixar, must be either [afluj'ʃa(r)] or [afluj'sa(r)] (Western and Valencian), or [əflu'ʃa(r)] (Eastern Catalan or Balearic, no diphtong whatsoever). Perique des Palottes (talk) 15:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That may be the case in your dialect, but this is talking about interdialectal variation, which may not be clear with the present wording.  Does knowing that make it more believable? — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 16:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: With current wording what it says is plain wrong, in any dialect of Catalan. Please, before undoing each other edits, proceed to redo the wording to make it more believable. Perique des Palottes (talk) 17:37, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what Wheeler (p. 105) says: "In the case of post-tonic  sequences, such as pòdium 'podium', Màrius (given name), the constraint ranking in (44) will favour diphthong formation over hiatus.  Recasens remarks (1993: 107, 111) that it is hard to be certain whether the output is actually  or  in such cases." So this is apparently not interdialectal.  I don't have access to the source that's cited (Carbonell & Llisterri 1999), but the 1992 article in JIPA that it's based on doesn't mention it. Perhaps we should try to get ahold of the 1993 edition of the Enciclopèdia Catalana.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 03:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diphtongs in variation 

message: Jaume, this is an incomplete citation.  Can you provide a full citation in the bibliography section? If you have difficulty with the citation template, just give it your best shot. — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 09:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I'll add more details about these references and i'll get some sources for the assimilation. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 23:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Giner? Ferrer?

message: Jɑυмe (xarrades) 19:30, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's unsourced. — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 19:45, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: *On the Spanish phonology the consonant chart is in the center. Why are you changing it?! You don't like it in the center? Well, I DO ;)
*All or most phonologies display WP:IPA for... instead of Wikipedia:IPA for..., see Spanish phonology or Portuguese phonology.
*Stressed monosyllabic words have stress (to differentiate them from unstressed monosyllabics): mon [mun] vs món [ˈmon], es [əs] vs és [ˈes], etc.
*The rest is very good, thanks for your help Aeusoes :) Jɑυмe (xarrades) 18:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the first time I took out the stress I had forgotten about unstressed monosyllables.  I can't really speak for the other changes, since they were done by User:Δ. — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 23:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Stop deleting absurdities

message: Here (see conventions) says in other dialects (it only means Valencian, and perhaps La Franja dialects), (intervocalic) /bl/ and /gl/ do not geminate. I don't know right now which reference explains this (Veny? Recasens? Badia i Margarit?). I'll have a look on my books. Shall we use this until I find a better source? Jɑυмe (xarrades) 18:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're planning on finding an adequate source anyway, what's wrong with keeping it marked as uncited until then? — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 23:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, until then we can have it unsourced. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 00:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: /bl/ and /gl/

message: The article currently doesn't mention this, but I presume that vowels are reduced the same in diphthongs as they are as single vowels? And if so, then perhaps they are not really diphthongs but phonemically sequences of vowel + approximant. I also wonder what happens when  or  are reduced in this way in Central Catalan (since  is not permitted). CodeCat (talk) 22:18, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, these are only phonetic diphthongs.  I'm not sure how vowel reduction is treated, though. — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 23:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vowel reduction in diphthongs 

message: I get the feeling that rising diphthongs like /je/ and /we/ are really allophonic in Catalan. As noted above in the section "Diphtongs in variation", they only appear in a very restricted set of environments. And it seems that in these environments, the conversion from an unstressed /i/ or /u/ to /j/ or /w/ is automatic. That is, the combination /gua/ automatically becomes /gwa/, while /eia/ becomes /eja/, and word-initial /io/ becomes /jo/. It also seems that in sequences of two high vowels, the character of the diphthong is ambiguous and can be either rising or falling. If all of this is correct, then apparently /w/ and /j/ are phonemic only in the syllable coda, and allophonic otherwise. CodeCat (talk) 20:14, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are the rising diphthongs allophonic? 

message: I just added few loan phonemes to the consonant chart.
I would also suggest to use Recasens' pan-dialectal vowel chart and add some extra dialectal and loan vowels.  — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 15:31, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonemic charts 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: If [ɫ] (velar(ized) l) is just an allophone of the /l/ phoneme, why is it used so often in this article: e.g. color [kuˈɫo] ('color'); malalt	[məˈɫaɫ];  bolígraf boníssim [buˈɫiɣɾəv buˈnisim], etc.??  
 
Velar ɫ is supposed to be a syllable-final variant, yet it is syllable-final only in once in the above examples.  This ɫ character appears 32 times in total!
Agihard (talk) 22:13, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's explained in the article here. — Æµ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 00:47, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: But the use of velarized l [ɫ] in these positions happens only in a minority of dialects (according to this page), and these usages are not in reference to these dialects.  Currently, the page is inconsistent: sometimes it transcribes the majority dialects, other times the minority, creating confusion.  I would be willing to make the page consistent with the majority dialects. Agihard (talk) 15:38, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that makes sense. Maybe we should default to the plain l in transcriptions unless there's a clear reason to indicate the velarization. It seems like we're doing the opposite of that now. — Æµ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of ɫ character 

message: What is this Recasens & Pallarès (1995)? It can't be Recasens, Fontdevila & Pallarès (1995) because the page numbers and the topic don't match. Google is of no help either. Qwerty12302 (talk | contributions)  18:57, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Could it be Recasens & Pallarès (2001)? — Æµ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 19:55, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recasens & Pallarès 1995? 

message: I think the current article is a bit confusing for the following reasons:
#There are two or more transcriptions for every term which makes it difficult to read and have precision
#Some sections repeat certain info or info is mixed, for instance there is not a clear aspect of what is dialectal and what it's not (e.g. certain lenition aspects).
I suppose we could clean up the article and split Valencian (Western Catalan) from here. The map here shows a division line between East and West so we could take that into consideration to procede to do the separation of both variants.  — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 22:54, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split