Talk:Tolkien family

message: Wow. Is this page necessary? I mean, come on, the Tolkien family tree extended so far? --WongFeiHung 02:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was originally a template, and nominated for deletion.  The rough consensus of that debate was that the information was worth having, but that it made no sense to include the family tree in every article about a member of the Tolkein family.  Therefore it was moved from being a family tree template template into being an article which includes a family tree.  —dgiestc 02:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I still think this is garbage. This article is absolutely pointless, trivial, useless. No one cares about the Tolkien family tree, no one knows who 3/4 of those people are --WongFeiHung 18:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it interesting. I don't know why, but that's how it is. I don't know why, but I think I can't be the only one. HustonJMarble 22:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's interesting because of all the made-up family trees in JRR Tolkien's books. Totorotroll (talk) 20:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

text: I agree with Huston.  Random note:  Ruth Tolkien is apparently blind (and an excellent student)( - I'm assuming the girl mentioned is the same Ruth Tolkien, but the timing looks like it works out).  The Jade Knight (talk) 22:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

text: The page is expanding a little bit too far, I agree. Would you have constructive suggestions as to what to do? Some sort of family tree is useful, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. People can then go elsewhere for the full family tree. For what it is worth, I think Christopher Tolkien and Tim Tolkien pass WP:NOTABLE. I agree with your PROD of Simon Tolkien, and will redirect it to here. Possibly that should happen for Arthur Tolkien as well (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur Tolkien). I'm still ambivalent about Edith Tolkien. Carcharoth (talk) 06:58, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I find it interesting to some degree; both with respect to how it sheds light on J.R.R. Tolkien's life, and because of the fact that several of the other members are arguably notable in their own rights. However, the graph does extend far further than it should. Information about toddlers recently born to non-notable descendants is best saved for personal family pages, not WP. On this WP page, the tree should be limited in extent to notables and their immediate families.Undomelin (talk) 03:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree. This is unnecessary.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:31, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

text: But on the contrary, mon frere, they are famous for being fabulously wealthy, Catholic, and controlling the Tolkien Trust and the Tolkien Estate on which hangs the filming rights of Similariad etc.--Jack Upland (talk) 13:03, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Necessary?

message: Edited in Christopher's 2nd and 3rd grandchildren, Dmitri and Samuel Solicitr 15:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Query- User:83.197.65.27 removed these entries.  The ISP is French; if the removal was made for privacy reasons by a member of the Tolkien family that's fine, but I'd hope that could be stated. Solicitr (talk) 16:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Additions

message: The article has been fully protected against editing for two weeks due to edit-warring and BLP concerns. See WP:AN3#User:Christopher Carrie reported by User:Tonyinman (Result: Protected). It would be helpful if any regular editor (unconnected to the Royd Baker dispute) would try to summarize what has gone on here in the last three months, and propose how to resolve the dispute. Omitting the Royd Baker material entirely from the article is one option that editors might consider. To get wider discussion, consider making a report at WP:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. EdJohnston (talk) 14:26, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have actually made a report now at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. De728631 (talk) 15:54, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

text: The issue appears to be one of Christopher Carrie or associated puppets not wanting certain information to appear on WP (or anywhere else.) A search on google and cached pages revealed his website http://www.jtolkien.com has recently been taken down. The information contained in section in question of the WP Tolkien Family entry appears to be properly sourced and verifiably sourced. Whether all of this meets WP notability standards is another question - however this point could be applied (and has been in the past judging by this talk page) to much of the Tolkien Family article. However, the court ruling in 2009 does meet notability criteria on google hits alone and does appear to be a notable precedent in internet/blogging and defamation law in the UK. isfutile:P (talk) 17:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Isfutile, you should have a look at the discussion at the BLP Noticeboard. I'm going to copy your above statement over there. De728631 (talk) 20:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Agree. IF the Carrie stuff were to be included at all, it should only be allowed in if balanced by material regarding Carrie's conduct in this matter.  Either keep it out, or include it with counterpoise; otherwise it violates NPOV. Solicitr (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion has moved to the BLP Noticeboard - perhaps Solicitr would prefer to enter the discussion there. isfutile:P (talk) 18:07, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The BLP discussion can now be viewed in Archive93. EdJohnston (talk) 15:21, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Royd Allan Reuel Tolkien, born Baker in 1969 in Sychdyn, Flintshire, Wales, is the son of Hugh Baker and Michael Tolkien's daughter Joan; thus he is the great-grandson of J.R.R. Tolkien. He grew up on a farm in Sychdyn, where members from the Tolkien Society would annually meet, during which time they would reenact scenes from his great-grandfather's works with other Tolkien enthusiasts. He prefers to use his mother's surname Tolkien. At the request of Peter Jackson, he played a Gondorian ranger passing arms out to other rangers as they prepare to defend Osgiliath in The Return of the King, the final film in Jackson's film adaptation of his great-grandfather's works. Royd Tolkien works as a film producer and literary agent. Notable films produced by him include Pimp, wherein he also plays himself.
Royd Tolkien Literary Agency
----
As stated on the BLP noticeboard, I suggest that you all edit and improve the above text, here on this talk page, to create a properly sourced and neutral section covering the material that has been swept along for the ride in this dispute (not the court case).  EdJohnston, I, or another administrator will then put such material into the article. Uncle G (talk) 13:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. IF the Carrie stuff were to be included at all, it should only be allowed in if balanced by material regarding Carrie's conduct in this matter.  Either keep it out, or include it with counterpoise; otherwise it violates NPOV. Solicitr (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion has moved to the BLP Noticeboard - perhaps Solicitr would prefer to enter the discussion there. isfutile:P (talk) 18:07, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The BLP discussion can now be viewed in Archive93. EdJohnston (talk) 15:21, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improve this text 

message: The birthplace and the location of the farm where Royd Tolkien grew up, which were removed in this revision, are referenced by the BBC (see footnote #37). There's also an interview with R. Tolkien on Youtube where he confirms that he grew up on a farm near Mold. For being the grandson of Michael H.R. Tolkien, we could possibly add a Lord of the Rings fan convention report citing Royd Tolkien himself. But then some might say that it's just a fanpage. And there's also The Tolkien Family Album, a book by two children of J.R.R.T. from 1992 which is used as a general reference in an entry for Royd Tolkien aka Royd Baker on Ardapedia, the German equivalent to the Tolkien Gateway Wiki. This last book would be very interesting to get a hold on to verify the family tree, does anybody have it at hand? De728631 (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details in Royd Tolkien entry 

message: I believe that Michael H. R. Tolkien should be listed in notable members. He was a former soldier and also a poet. I think he is notable enough to be mentioned here. KahnJohn27 (talk) 23:50, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That was a good idea. After all Michael Hilary inspired his father to several important literary figure plots like Bombadil, Roverandom and the Mirkwood spiders. I have now added a section for him. De728631 (talk) 11:32, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: @De728631 He also wrote several poem booklets. KahnJohn27 (talk) 06:48, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You might have read that at the Council of Elrond website, but all the poetry mentioned there was actually written by his son Michael George, see his homepage. De728631 (talk) 08:34, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: @De728631 Oh sorry. KahnJohn27 (talk) 17:10, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael H.R. Tolkein 

message: I think she should be mentioned too. She has several works to her credit and is honorary VP of The Tolkien Society and worked as a probation officer and social worker in Oxford and attends many Tolkien fan events.  KahnJohn27 (talk) 17:04, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't matter I added it myself. KahnJohn27 (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Priscilla Mary Anne R. Tolkein

message: @De728631 The name of Anna Tolkien, the daughter of Simon Tolkien and Tracy Sternberg does not show up. Even if I add it it shows up under Adam Tolkien whenever I try to add it. Please fix it. Thank you. KahnJohn27 (talk) 10:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: . De728631 (talk) 21:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anna Tolkien 

message: I haven't been able to find any reliable source for Hillary Tolkien's wife and children except Julian Tolkien. What should we do? KahnJohn27 (talk) 08:51, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good question... I can't get access to the Google Books preview of Hilary Tolkien's entry in Drout's J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment, but could you perhaps check this? I got some vague online references to a certain Margaret Ann Tolkien who was born in 1948 but so far that's nothing reliable. De728631 (talk) 18:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Already checked that book J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment out. I have the complete digital copy of the book and in the section about Hilary Tolkien it doesn't say anything about his wife or kids. Neither does any other book. KahnJohn27 (talk) 13:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hillary Tolkien 

message: Why is the mentioning of John Fr. Tolkien child abuse case being removed? This incident happened 12 years ago and the alleged crime happened decades ago when John was still a priest so there's not going to br victimisation of any kind with mentioning it. Also what do you mean lawsuit? How is mentioning the incident going to have a lawsuit on us? The c actually happened. Christopher Carrie complained about John Tolkien and the police investigated the case and questioned John. All of the reasons given by the users who have removed this edit of mine seem ridiculous. I'm sorry for restoring it again and again but I wasn't involved in any edit war especially since I didn't do 3 reverts within 24 hours. So why are you people removing my edit? It is a noteworthy incident and should be mentioned seeing how little else is noteworthy of John Tolkien. KahnJohn27 (talk) 14:20, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: A web site at https://johntolkien.wordpress.com/ claims that the police exonerated Father John Tolkien of these charges. These matters were previously discussed above, at Talk:Tolkien family#Protected. This material, whether true or false, may not belong in a brief overview of the Tolkien family. The article is hanging by a thread already (in terms of notability) because J. R. R. Tolkien's notability does not transfer to members of his family. It is very unlikely that a separate article on John Tolkien's legal issues would be considered important enough to exist here. There is also a socking issue involving Christopher Carrie, an accuser of John Tolkien, and this article needs to be protected against him from time to time. If anyone tries to restore the John Tolkien material again, without getting consensus first, it is likely to produce action by admins. Wikipedia needs to protect itself from legal trouble. EdJohnston (talk) 14:36, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There are serious WP:BLP, WP:NPOV and undue weight WP:RSUW issues here, as described and referenced in all the user comments of those who reverted your additions. If you have not read these, they can be viewed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive136#User:Christopher_Carrie_reported_by_User:Tonyinman_.28Result:_Protected.29; here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive93#Tolkien_family, and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tolkien_family#Protected . I notice that user EdJohnston has already explained this to you here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:KahnJohn27#John_Francis_R._Tolkien . Above, you stated: "This incident happened 12 years ago and the alleged crime happened decades ago". This should be a good indication that the material is not notable. Then you stated: "Christopher Carrie complained about John Tolkien and the police investigated the case and questioned John." Whilst not entirely false, this is highly misleading and one-sided. You omit sources that demonstrate there was no trial, no conviction, no further action, and crucially, that other sources on the internet, which interestingly you have chosen not to use, detail how the allegation was found to be false and how John Tolkien was exonerated by the police. Also, there is no due weight mention of Carrie's own actions after 2003, and his edits - 'which are surprisingly similar to yours', which resulted in his banning on Wikipedia some time ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Christopher_Carrie . Therefore your edits are in violation of WP:NPOV and attach undue weight WP:RSUW to an incident that was not notable, to a person who is not notable. With any WP edit, I suggest you seek out all the sources before any addition of potentially inflammatory material, and ensure all the sources you use are properly cited to create a fair and balanced edit. Then you stated: "It is a noteworthy incident and should be mentioned seeing how little else is noteworthy of John Tolkien." Firstly, it isn't a noteworthy incident. Secondly if you believe John Tolkien isn't noteworthy, I would support the removal of any reference to Fr John Tolkien, and indeed most of the people listed on this page other than Christopher, Simon, Tim, Royd and Baillee; on grounds of insufficient notability. In addition I would support the removal of nearly all the recent additions to the family tree on the same grounds notwithstanding the privacy and BLP issues and complete lack of verifiable third party sources for dates, names and relatives.  Regarding your comments about 3RR WP:3RR - your understanding of 3RR WP:3RR and reverting edits WP:WAR is incorrect. I direct you to the numerous explanations provided to you by others on your talk page and other places here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:KahnJohn27/Archive_1#Edit_warring and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:KahnJohn27/Archive_1#Notice_of_Edit_warring_noticeboard_discussion and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive793#KahnJohn27 . Put simply, you are advocating to add information which suggests one man, who isn't notable, was falsely accused of child abuse and nothing happened as a result. As detailed in WP:WAR and the talk page advice you have received in the past, the onus is on you to demonstrate how this is notable and why this should be added - and achieve consensus on this talk page to that effect. For the reasons outlined above I do not believe this material should be added since it was removed in 2010 and 2011 and consensus agreed. isfutile:P (talk) 15:23, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

text: Also this news from The Daily Telegraph also says that John Tolkien was indeed booked and questioned, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1380542/Tolkiens-son-is-questioned-over-child-sex-allegations.html .The incident did happen and John Tolkien was never exanorated from it. KahnJohn27 (talk) 20:29, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your response is bordering on a personal attack and certainly misrepresenting my advice to you, and for that reason I will make no further response other than to suggest that you read more closely my advice. I'm making no claims on the matter at all since I'm not the one adding contentious content. Neither have I relied on any source - because I'm not adding content. You're making the claims, therefore your content has to abide by WP:N WP:NPOV, WP:BLP and WP:RSUW. It is clear for reasons already clearly explained to you that it does not, and as previously stated, the onus is on you to gain consensus on this page first before adding new material. If you can do that, I'll happily reconsider. isfutile:P (talk) 21:12, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: KahnJohn27: There was no conviction, not even an indictment. And we have only the word of the plaintiff, Christopher Carrie, that the investigation of J. Tolkien was discontinued because 'he was too ill to be charged'. So there is nothing on the record to show that the charges were judged true, by any official entity. The church may have settled to avoid the annoyance of defending a lawsuit. EdJohnston (talk) 21:48, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

text: Do you know if anyone from the police ever said what happened to the investigation? We have Christopher Carrie saying that they discontinued it because John Tolkien was "too ill to be charged." Now in the Telegraph we have the solicitor for John Tolkien saying "No charges have been brought against him. Beyond that, I don't think we can really comment." Can you determine from either of these exactly what happened?  If not then all we have is that the police investigated, but no charges were filed. EdJohnston (talk) 00:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  A spokesman for the Crown Prosecution Service said, "We can confirm that we received a file in December 2001 from West Midlands Police relating to this matter. It is now under consideration." Also an official close to the investigation said the number of cases involved was "in low single figures". I'll try to find out what happened to the investigation but at the same time but we shouldn't simply say we do not know what happened to the investigation because Carrie himself was quoted by BBC. Not only that since you say we do not know whether he was charged or not, saying that he was exonarated by the police is wrong. But it is clear and confirmed that the Crown Prosecution Service and the police did investigate the allegations against him and also questioned him and that Carrie did complain to the police about him. KahnJohn27 (talk) 01:06, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Fr. Tolkien child sexual abuse case 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Since Nicholas Tolkien has directed feature films, produced plays, written a play, and won poetry awards perhaps this article should include a specific section on him. Mcljlm (talk) 09:41, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find any noteworthy coverage by reliable sources. Maybe it is a bit WP:TOOSOON for him to get his own section in the list. De728631 (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicholas Tolkien 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: For want of confusion as has happened in the past, it is Royd Baker not Royd Tolkien  148.106.154.38 (talk) 13:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: .  Please establish a consensus on the talk page for this first before making the edit request.  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:38, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be useful to add (née Baker). It appears that Royd changed his name at some stage.  His mother also uses the Tolkien name not Baker. Deagol2 (talk) 18:49, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2019 

message: :J.R.R. Tolkien himself erroneously believed the name to be derived from the German adjective tollkühn, meaning foolhardy.
He was joking!--Jack Upland (talk) 05:58, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foolhardy 

message: Her name is Faith LUCY TILLY Faulconbridge, not Faith TULLY LILLY Faulconbridge. 66.36.135.52 (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — IVORK Talk 17:20, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

text: Any relationship to Wild Man Henry Parkes and the township of Faulconbridge, Blue Mountains???--Jack Upland (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2019 

message: In the 5th line of the paragraph for Fr John Francis Reuel Tolkien: The church of his ordination is incorrectly given as 'St John & St Augustine' It is in fact 'St Gregory & St Augustine' Jabotox (talk) 15:02, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Tonyinman (talk) 18:30, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2020 

message: I venture a theory that brings both assumptions together. Namely, Tolkien's assumption that his name is derived from "tollkühn" ("foolhardy") - and the assumption that his name can be traced back to the place "Tolkynen". Namely, that the name of the place Tolkynen "namely" itself derived from the word "tollkühn", which in turn was not an all too rare name in East Prussia at the time of the "foolhardy" knighthood of the Order. Perhaps the instinct of the ingenious Tolkien was not entirely unfounded. In this video, which is about a journey to East Prussia, a grave with the name of an East Prussian woman ("Tollkühn") can be seen from minute 0.18. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e2oY0grqSY  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B40:7ABC:FD64:F101:DEC:5186 (talk) 06:33, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tolkien/Tollkühn/Tolkynen 

message: I spilt the section "Hilary Tolkien into two paragraphs, quoted here (footnotes removed):
Could anyone please tell me if this was a good idea? (Edit: Had to add extra space to prevent quote from being single paragraph.)--Thylacine24 (talk) 01:54, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split paragraph 

message: Section 3.3 Mabel Tolkien refers to her as "born Suffield" but in J. R. R. Tolkien Section 1.2 Childhood as "née Suffield". Perhaps one or the other should be changed. Mcljlm (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: They mean the same thing.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mabel Tolkien