Talk:IBM 3270

message: On the Read Modified technique: Modern users however, sometimes find this system extremely bizarre, since it is very different to any user interface encountered in the consumer market. Isn't this just the form-submission paradigm every web user is intimately familiar with? grendel|khan 18:19, 2005 May 4 (UTC)
:Yes, exactly. In many ways the 3270 worked very similarly to the way we do forms with a web browser: a screen of text was sent to the terminal, the user interacted with the text in some fashion, and a special key on the terminal was used to submit the page back to the mainframe. Actually, in the mid-1980s this seemed stranger than it does now--at least to people used to working with Unix, because all terminal interactions were character-I/O oriented.
:It's also easy to see how this process cleanly integrated into a batch processing mainframe environment, because each submission was a single batch operation. (Editing text files was a bit funny, because you could only see one page at a time and there was no line-by-line scrolling.... at least on Wylbur.)--12.103.251.203 22:25, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a description of attribute bits, and included a sentence on this technique.  Yes - the first time I how the web browsers were operating it took me back to my CICS days. Peter Flass (talk) 12:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: On the ''Read Modified''

message: I often read about LUs in the TN3270 context.  What are LUs?  Perhaps that means Logical Unit?  But what does that mean really in this context? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.245.11.134 (talk) 21:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Logical Units. In the Mainframe side, Communications Server (VTAM) must have defined every unit that can connect to the system. LUs and PUs (yes, Physical Units) are SNA concepts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.76.110.50 (talk) 02:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: LU's?  What's that?

message: Has no sense to remove an useful external link like the one i added when other links of the competence can be present in the list. It is not only unfair, it is more than that.
If you are going to remove a link to a product, remove them all, which is the difference Femto?
In fact, i saw that one of the people that had removed some links is a kwnon member of one of the competence companies.
I repeat, has no sense to remove ONE link, or you let me add my link, or you remove all external links, but be fair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.61.172.5 (talk) 15:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Next time, don't try to add the link to 9 different articles in 10 minutes and maybe you won't be accused of spamming. RossPatterson 00:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Your concerns are covered at WP:EL and WP:SPAM.-- I already forgot  talk  22:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unfair external link removal 

message: The 3277 GA (Graphics Attachment) was an add-in card for a 3277 that drove a Tektronix 4015 directly in vector mode, not via RS232. The resolution of the graphics device was 4096x4096, not 1024x768. In fact, the resolution was so high that the GA could be used to display 512x512 gray-scale images by stroking a special "font" that displayed each "pixel" of the image as a character. Light pixels had lots of strokes, dark pixels had relatively few strokes.
Zen3d (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it was bit more than "an add-in card", it was whole gate full.  A new gate was installed on the other side of the CRT neck from the regular gate.  I know, I converted a regular 3277 to a 3277 GA once.  Terry (Ex-IBM CE). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.24.229 (talk) 14:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The resolution of the Tektronix screen was actually 4k x 3k with the added ability to display limited dynamic vector graphics (in orange) on top of the green static image. The 3277-GA workstation was used extensively to design the 3090 series of IBM mainframes. We were able to project a full page of a chip logic diagram on the screen or an image of a 100 chip TCM and its connections. The "rubber band mode" was used to visualize inter-chip connections as part of a placement analysis tool.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.208.210.98 (talk) 22:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The Tektronix 40xx devices use a storage CRT, which has no resolution. It is an analog storage medium.  The beam control hardware has some DACs with some number of bits, but if one wanted to, one could replace all that logic.  (I don't know exactly how IBM did it.)  Gah4 (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  3277 GA information is incorrect 

message: A picture of a real terminal would be better than a screenshot of an emulator.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ljosa (talk • contribs) 17:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a 3279 photo. Will try to shoot a 3270 with stock keyboard next month. Shieldforyoureyes (talk) 14:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That picture isn't a picture of a (regular) 3279.   It's a special version of a 3279 that is used to (among other things) IML the system, a lamp test, stop/start, and other things, and has lights (lamps) to indicate the system's status.     -- GerardSchildberger (talk) 04:57, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

text: I'd like to find a picture of an "original" 3270 (3275 or 3277). Peter Flass (talk) 12:58, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me that emulation is common enough that one should have pictures of both. Gah4 (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

text: How is an "IBM 3279 Model 2C Color Display Console"See, e.g. 
 not a 3279? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:06, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  When it is a console, not a terminal.   A "console" is used for more than a terminal, it is used to control a computer (or a PC).     -- GerardSchildberger (talk) 19:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether it is a console, a terminal or a pink elephant, it is still a 3279 and referred to by IBM as such. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:52, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture should be of the real thing

message: I have restored that contribution, as it appears to be both pertinent and, according to anecdotal evidence, correct.
--ClickRick (talk) 09:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazilian manufacture 

message: When I added the 3277 photo I wanted to include the dimensions, and especially the weight, which I thought would be a surprise to people today.  Unfortunately I couldn't find a manual or announcement that has this information.  Bitsavers only has the 3278.  If anyone has the info, please include it. Peter Flass (talk) 12:36, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Physical description 

message: Added a placeholder for this. Anyone able to beef it up a little? Such as the announce date? You'd think I'd remember. :-) Martin Packer (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  3472 Infowindow 

message: The table in IBM 3270#3270 character set has rows and columns correctly labeled for EBCDIC, but the hexadecimal values shown are for ASCII rather than for EBCDIC. Also, neither of them is a 16 bit character set, and the values should be two hexadecimal digits rather than four. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:03, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Those numbers are the matching Unicode code points, as used in many of the tables. I did try to remove these (putting them into the tooltips) as I thought they are ugly and confusing, but it was reverted, so I gave up.Spitzak (talk) 19:01, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Should there also be a table for 3270 ASCII encoding? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 17:37, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[#3270 character set]] mixes ASCII and EBCDIC 

message: The 3270 controllers are available in BSC (BiSynch), SNA, local non-SNA and local SNA versions. Some of the control characters are only relevant to BSC:
*ACK 0 ('1070'x)
*ACK 1 ('1061')
*DLE
*EOT
*ESC
*ETX
*ITB
*NAK
*RVI ('1070')
*SOH
*STX
*SYN
*TTD (STX ENQ)
*WACK ('106B'x)
The relevant reference for BSC 3270 controllers is http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/GA23-0060-0_3271_3272_3275_Description_and_Programmers_Guide_Nov80.pdf, with equivalents for newer controllers.
Some of the control characters are specific to the 3270 and have no Unicode equivalents:
*DUP
*IC
*EUA
*FM
*GE
*MF
*PT
*RA
*SA
*SBA
*SF
*SFE
The relevant manual for control characters unique to the 3270 is http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/GA23-0059-4_3270_Data_Stream_Programmers_Reference_Dec88.pdf or a later edition. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:22, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Control characters 

message: User:Matthiaspaul claimed that table 1 of IBM 3270 was useless without the decimal numbers and reverted an edit by User:Spitzak; the table is perfectly useful without the decimal numbers and, in fact, the decimal numbers are useless; anybody programming for the 3270 uses hexadecimal or symbolic references to control characters. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:42, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Of what Earthly use are decimal code points for 3270 control characters? 

message: IBM 3270#Applications gives an inappropriate reference in
Conversational Monitor System (CMS) in VM/SP has support for the 3270.
The article Remote 3270s Gain Access to VM Hosts has nothing to do with CMS support for the 3270, which existed in the free Virtual Machine Facility/370 long before VM/SP. In fact, support for remote 3270s was already in VM/370 R2. What VM/SP Multipoint for 3270 added was support for multidrop (polled) 3270s and does not change CMS. I would probably have given a reference
 for the earlier VM/370 in place of or in addition to a reference
 for VM/SP, but the existing reference is irrelevant. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think VM/SP added support for full-screen 3270s, which made them a lot more useful. Peter Flass (talk) 17:25, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Full screen support was there in VM/370. VM/SP added XEDIT
 and later VSCREEN. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:38, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriate reference -  VM/SP Multipoint for 3270 adds support to CP, not to CMS 

message: The article does not mention the 3180 or 3192, although one of the references covers the 3192G. Does anybody have the dates for them? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:53, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: google> "3180" "1984" "terminal" found1984 - IBM's announcement date is March 20, 1984 for "IBM 3180 DISPLAY STATION MODELS 1 AND 2"  Pi314m (talk) 05:54, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  models 

message: After adding information on the color modes supported on the 3279, I realized that those data really belong in a central location rather than being replicated in the description of every relevant model. Further, I believe that current references to graphics are misleading. I'm soliciting advice on what goes where.
First, the 3270 offers three very different types of graphics support
# The 3277 Graphics Attachment has an attached Tektronix CRT and is incompatible with all other 3270 graphics.
# 3270 models with the Programmed symbol sets
 (PSS) feature are supported by Graphical Data Display Manager
 (GDDM) and by the Presentation Graphics Feature (PGF) of GDDM.
# 3270 models with the All Point Addressable (APA) feature are supported by GDDM and by the Presentation Graphics Feature (PGF) of GDDM. 
Typically models with a G in the number support APA, but GDDM and GDDM-PGF support some models without APA.
Second, the 3270 has two types of color support briefly described in IBM 3270#3279.
# Basic color (4 implicit colors)
# Extended color (7 explicit colors) Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 22:23, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  3270 graphics and organization of the article  

message: It is likely that Tim Berners-Lee thought that WWW browsers should be thin clients, and I wish that they had remained so, but Todays web is dominated by sites using client-side scripts. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 01:43, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWW browsers are not thin clients 

message: I have several questions regarding the references in the article.
First, while the earlier
 edition of the data stream manual is avaiable online as a PDF, the current
 edition, cited in the article, is only available in BookManager format, and requires a discontinued IBM product to read, although there is a boo2pdf program for generating a PDF from it.
Second, I want to add multiple references to different sections of it. I could use a complete  for each reference. but that would lead to an unnecessary expansion of the text. I'd like to do something like "PA1 causes a short read and PFK1 causes a read modified". That would seem to be a change in citation style, so I would like to start a discussion.Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 23:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In those cases I cite the book without a page number, and add ((rp:n}} <wiki></nowiki> following the reference. Peter Flass (talk) 03:10, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I misspelled , which I've now corrected. The  template doesn't support location. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 06:30, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: IBM 3270#Non-IBM Controllers should either be removed as not notable or be greatly expanded to show all of the many OEM controllers that were successfully marketed before the home-grown controller currently described in that section, e.g., 1371/1372 Memorex 1372, newer Memorex controllers listed in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/memorex/terminal/Memorex_3270_Compatible_Terminals_Jan86.pdf. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 03:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree about possible expansion. I think the controller listed is interesting because it's built from currenty-available hardware, which people interested in working with 3270s would find of interest. Peter Flass (talk) 03:45, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove home-grown controller or add commercially available controllers 

message: added the text . However, the 3290 was announced
 in 1983 while the 3179G was not announced
 until 1985. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provenance of downstream load (DSL) 

message: I noticed that the 3179G sections cites the announcement for the 3179 rather than that for the 3179G
 and that the section for the 3290 gives the wrong
 title for the announcement
 letter. I'm in the process of compiling from https://ibm.com/common/ssi a table of IBM hardware that will include links to the relevant announcement letters; that will include all of the 3270 announcement letters that I can find. Once I've added all of the 3270 dates that I can find, I plan to include them in the article with links to the announcement letters. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 20:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Announcement letters 

message: @Chatul: A recent edit of 3274 states that “The 3274-1A was an SNA physical Unit type 4 (PU4),” Are your Shure?, in my book it is a PU Type 2.0, the FEP is Type 4. - unsigned comment by AndFrog.
: I could be mistaken; if you have a source, please change it and include a citation to your source, including , ,  and  as applicable. If it's a PDF then use 
:Have you thought about the best way to document configuration support for both 3174 and 3274? 
:Please sign you comments with -- --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:09, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: On second though, you're definitely correct because IBM later added APPN support, which implies PU2.1; I don't recall whether they also added it for the 3274. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  3274 

message: The character code charts appear to be for the 3277, and do not include the buffer orders for Extended Data Stream, e.g., SFE. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Code charts