Talk:Legion of Honour

message: Ok, according to the article, France awarded Legion membership to all those who fought on French soil during the first World War. Does this include former German soldiers, who were France's enemies?The Holy Hand Grenade Attack Llama#42 19:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article

message: The rules are:
Exceptions. The word glamour comes from Scots, not Latin or French, and is usually spelled glamour (rarely glamor) in the U.S. and glamour always elsewhere else; saviour is a common variant of savior in the U.S.; the name of the herb savory is thus spelled everywhere (although the probably related adjective savo(u)ry does have a u in Britain.)
Robert Prummel 00:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you arguing against Legion of Honor? If so, how often does the article use the English translation???Morstar (talk) 07:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  It is Legion of Honour, it is a translation of a french word! 

message: The Legion of Honour is the most interesting of the European Orders because of frequent changes of its appearance due to different regimes which conferred it. Where is that part of the article? User:Alexvonf
*****I tried to work this out, copyright problems are a barrier... Robert Prummel 01:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved from [[Talk:Légion d'honneur]] now redirected here

message: When it says "dismissed 'de jure'" does this mean by action of law?  Or must there be some sort of action or proceeding separate from the conviction?  --Daniel C. Boyer 19:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed this to "ipso facto", which appears to be the intended meaning. I've also added a  tag.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: "de jure"

message: This article doesn't say anything about the nature of nominations ?  Is this simply the gift of the President of France (like the Royal Victorian Order) or is there some sort of advisory council like in the Order of Canada ? Dowew 15:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomination and Eligability ? 

message: The handling in Boulogne (picture) was the second and not the first one. The first one took place on July 15, 1804 in the chapel of Les Invalides. See 
****Then i will correct it!  Robert Prummel 01:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it was never changed/ corrected.--Joey123xz (talk) 15:30, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Boulogne

message: *Talk:Legion of Honor; Legion of Honor → Légion d'honneur - In English the word can be spelled Honor and Honour. The page was happily living at Légion d'honneur which is the proper French name and avoids the BE/AmE problems until someone in April decided that Google prefers "Legion of Honor". Since then there has been a mess of redirects and cut'n'paste moves and the article was actually living at Legion of Honour (disambiguation) until I reset everything back to Legion of Honor. Legion of Honor (disambiguation) is a valid disambiguation page. Jooler 17:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move (2006)

message: Since this seems to be the subject of many edits and reverts, in the interest of neutrality, I've replaced all instances of "Legion of Hono(u)r" with the French "Légion d'honneur," and all other instances of hono(u)r with an appropriate synonym such as decoration or distinction, except in the translation of the Legion's motto.  Since the shortened form ("Legion") is dialect-neutral, I've left it the way it is.  I've also made various grammatical edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.195.134.10 (talk) 20:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, 72.195.134.10; I'd been meaning to suggest what you've done. I've gone one step further and renamed all instances of "Legion" to "Légion" where the former is used as shorthand for "Légion d'honneur". Best wishes, David Kernow 02:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, David.  I just realized that I forgot to sign that last comment, and was going to fix it!  Oh well. --72.195.134.10 02:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on Wikipedia:Naming conventions that says "article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize," this should be changed to Legion of Honor. Such changes have and are being made to other foreign-language articles such as this one  from Académie des Sciences to French Academy of Sciences. C. C. Perez 11:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But there is also an article "Legion of Honor", referring to something of the Philippines. Extremely sexy 15:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Spelling 

message: Sorry I was a bit ambiguous with the edit summary The Legion does act like a "Order of Chivalry". But that needs a cite, since French official literature call it plainly an "Order" or "the national order of merit". Please disregard "French official literature" and read "what I've seen on the Order". In particular the Legion of Honour's official history page (in French), in the paragraph about the 1960s.
Mr Bluefin 03:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit No. 66466235 

message: The Légion is not a civil decoration, nor a military one ; it encompass both. The ordre du Mérite works the same way. IMHO, both shouldn't be classified in Category:Civil decorations of France. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.103.83.35 (talk) 17:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civil order ? 

message: There does not appear to be any mention of the ribbons that can be worn when in civilain dress for members of the Order. I know that a Chevalier can wear a red ribbon in his/her lapel button hole, but am not sure about the other ranks.--Purple Aubergine 21:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added a reference to this near the end of the "Classes and Insignia" section. glv (talk) 21:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medal Ribbons 

message: I found an issue of the Canada Gazette that lists the Canadian Government allowing the French Government to invest former Governor General Romeo LeBlanc as a "Grand Cross of the Order of the Legion of Merit"...does anyone know if this means the Legion of Honour or the National Order of Merit" ?  I have tried searching for the French edition of the publication but can't find it.  Dowew 01:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It actually lists him as "Grand Officer of the Order of the Legion of Merit", it is from Sept 28th 2002  Dowew 01:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, both the english and french versions list the appointment like this...although other appointments call it the order of legion of honour or national order of merit...so it is strange this one would be different  Dowew 01:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that it refers to the Ordre du mérite, but I havent found Mr. LeBlanc in the Journal officiel which informs of these matters. My guess is that Mr LeBlanc was also promoted to Knight of the Order of the Legion of the Bad Copy-Paste :) Rama 07:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say you are a funny man. Extremely sexy 22:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romeo LeBlanc 

message: I have removed "It is the French equivalent of the British Victoria Cross and George Cross combined" which is rubbish. Knights and officers are more equivalent to the UK's MC, possibly the CGM, while the higher ranks are more honorific (awarded to generals etc.). The Legion of Hounour is better compared to the Order of the British Empire. Mesoso 12:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't agree with you. When awarded for "Actions of War", like for soldiers fallen in Afghanistan in 09/08, LdH is a VC equivalent, a supreme decoration for valour. As for the OBE comparison, there is more or less the same number of Commander of LdH awards in France as there are Knighthoods in the UK. I think The National Order of Merit is the real equivalent of the British Empire. 88.178.189.194 (talk) 15:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "equivalent of the British Victoria Cross and George Cross combined" 

message: According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the name of the order is Royal Order of the Legion of Honour (Ordre Royale de la Légion D’honneur). I also found this name on the website of Legion of Honor. Is this name valid, obsolete or not valid at all?--Nathan2000 (talk) 14:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The order was "Royal" during the various monarchical periods (Bourbon Restoration and July Monarchy, ca. 1814-1848). It was even Imperial during the First (1804-1814) and Second (1852-1870) French Empires. During the Republican periods, the order is known as Ordre National de la Légion d'honneur.By the way, the correct translation of "Royal Order of the Legion of Honour" is Ordre Royal de la Légion d'honneur, as Ordre is masculine and thus the adjective royal(e) should be use at the masculine gender.BlaF. (talk) 21:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Royal or national? 

message: Changed "patrie" from "fatherland" to "motherland," the word "patrie" being feminine.  Cheers!  216.15.41.45 (talk) 01:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Odd, and completely contrary to the logic of the French language, but what the hell. I'm sure it will make Marianne happy. Mrrhum (talk) 02:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Am about to change it back to Motherland since it is also La France not Le France. Jwasanders (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit 

message: *Sherlock Holmes is awarded the Legion of Honor for capturing a french assasian {The Granada TV version Holmes is awarded the Honor recoering the Mona Lisa painting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.126.88 (talk) 22:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Award in fiction

message: According to sources stated on Swedish Wikipedia, Yngve Larsson received the officer grade of the Légion d'honneur, however unclear when and for what reason. Anyone here with further information or suggestions on sources (preferably web)? Best wishes from Stockholm, /Urbourbo (talk) 11:35, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Searching year and motivation 

message: People who decline the award do not get much credit. One example of this is during World War Two, a man called Jopseph Thuillez was offered the honour but declined it. He stated that too many people had died and he should not get an award for killing people. His family only found out at his funeral when his old friends turned up to offer their condolences.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Insect75 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Declining The Award 

message: A couple points on the RfM discussion above, which I closed because it got way out of hand. 
There is no need to engage in ad-hominem attacks. They'll only make the reviewing admin think you're a douche, and instinctively tend to discount your argument. (I say that as someone who too often engages in ad-hominem attacks. But then, I'm a douche.) 
Correct, this is not a democracy. If three people vote for, and forty against, but the three have good arguments and the forty do not, then the three win, and we move the page. 
Correct, Google results are not valid over about 700 hits. (You can add restrictions and quadruple your number of "hits", which should tell you something.) Also, many Google hits are not admissible under WP:RS and so are irrelevant anyway. 
Google Books is better for a couple reasons: hits are more likely to be RS's, and there is more likely to be under a thousand hits, which makes the number more credible. Restricting your search to get fewer hits also helps. Badzil's finding of 19:37, 9 October 2010 are relevant here: 384 Légion d'honneur vs. 376 Legion of Hono(u)r, effectively a tie. However, skimming through the results, I found that most of the French were in French texts, and so irrelevant, and the English hits were about the French society, and so were relevant. I didn't look at many, but this would support a move if a fuller count holds up what I saw. 
The sum of UK spelling + US spelling = English needs to be compared with French, not each orthography individually: per the MOS, orthographic differences are "superficial". If we decide on English, then we can worry about national orthography. Personally, though I'm Usonian, I'd go with the UK spelling, as use of the phrase seems to be more common in the UK than in the US. Also, once an article is written in one orthography or the other, you need a reason to change. You can't change "honour" to "honor" just because you like it better, so fear of a spelling war isn't a valid reason to keep the French title. The only valid reasons I can think are either that it is the COMMONNAME, or that the English phrase would be unacceptably ambiguous. 
"Other uses" is also not a reason to keep the French title. If one usage dominates in English, then that usage gets the unmodified name, and we use a hat note to direct readers to a dab page for less common usages; otherwise the main page is a dab. If we do go with the English name, a hat note would be the appropriate approach here, as this clearly is "the" Legion of Honour. 
Other French medals are also not a reason to not move. If the Croix de Guerre is the normal wording in English, then that's what we keep, regardless of what we do with this article. After all, we translate Saint Petersburg in Russia, but not Santa Monica in the US, because that's normal English usage. 
We should look at more than just Google, however. We don't use encyclopedias as references for factual claims, but they are used for stylistic/naming arguments. I checked the EB, and their article is under Legion of Honour. Subtitle: officially Royal Order of the Legion of Honour, French Ordre Royale de la Légion D'honneur. Similarly, the OED defines "legionary" as "A soldier of a legion, ... Also, a member of the Legion of Honour.", and under "legion" has def 4a, "Legion of Honour [= F. légion d'honneur]" Altogether, the English phrase appears in 19 citations in the OED (2 with the US spelling), whereas the French phrase does not appear at all apart from the translation under Legion of Honour, though parole d'honneur, dame d'honneur, point d'honneur, vin d'honneur, sur son honneur do occur in multiple citations. Thus both the EB and the OED support a move. 
Unsurprisingly, my US dictionary agrees. "Legion of Honor" has an entry; Légion d'honneur does not. 
So, can we address the facts here without attacking motivations or honesty? What I've seen supports a move; the only reason I did not move it was the incivility of the discussion. Does anyone have reason to think that my review of the facts is inaccurate? — kwami (talk) 11:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your summary of the relevant parts of the debate seems correct to me. Therefore I'll support a move to Legion of honour. Badzil (talk) 12:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Okay, this should clinch it: Even the website of the Légion d'honneur calls itself the "Legion of Honour" in English! We could also use that to settle challenges to the UK spelling. — kwami (talk) 13:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move II 

message: [[Legion of honour#cite note-7|The sentence preceding Citation [7]/Quote [8]]] with which the section Military Units begins is unclear, namely "The pole of the Flag or the standard units or following training, was awarded the Cross of the Legion of Honor.". I cannot be absolutely certain what it means to say, and thus couldn't edit it to make it work grammatically. My best guess is something in the line of: "The following military units have been awarded the Cross of the Legion of Honour, which they may bear/wear with their Flag or pole.". It may be a literal translation from French into English gone wrong. So please, author or anyone in the know, explain this and/orrewrite. Thanks! :-) Mkruijff (talk) 14:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentence preceding Citation [7]/Quote [8]

message: I read that the Australian soprano Marjorie Lawrence was awarded the "Cross" of the Legion of Honour in 1946.  Source here.  What exactly was this honour?  There is a Grand Cross, but not just a Cross.  A newspaper report of the time talks about a "Diamond Cross", but that is also not something I can find any official reference to.
Can someone clarify just exactly what honour she was given by France?  --  Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Cross" is the name given to the insignia of the order, rather oddly because it's star-shaped, not cross-shaped. So being awarded the cross of the Légion d'honneur means to be made a chevalier in the order. Technically, non-Frenchmen cannot be "received" (inducted) in the order, so they aren't chevaliers, or officiers..., of the legion. They are awarded a distinction of the legion, wich is the insignia (colloqualy the "cross") of chevalier, officier..., at level equivalent to their services. In fact, this technicality is so artificial that no one sees a difference between "membership" and "distinction" and non-Frenchmen are routinely, even by officials, called chevaliers, officiers... 86.65.59.50 (talk) 13:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Marjorie Lawrence's "Diamond Cross"

message: I'm have a draft biography of Maurice Burrus and this page says he was a "Chevalier de la Légion d'Honneur". Is there somewhere I can verify this honour? ww2censor (talk) 05:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not look promising if you are not able to find a reliable source.  On the Musée de la Légion d'Honneur website:  it suggests direct contact or visiting the national archives.  Looking at the article on the French Wikipeida :fr:Maurice Burrus, there is no mention of his receipt of the Légion d'Honneur.  Cheers.  EricSerge (talk) 19:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I had seen the fr page so was not sure how or where to check. It looks dubious. Thanks for the reply. ww2censor (talk) 19:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Where can I check?

message: Phyliss Latour Doyle is to receive the "award of Chevalier de l’Ordre National de la Légion d’Honneur (Legion of Honour)” on Tuesday 25 November 2014 from Laurent Contini, the French ambassador to New Zealand.   So, in the next  24-48 hours this page will need a little updating. --220 of Borg 14:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  2014 Award of  [[Legion of Honour]] to SOE operative  Phyliss Latour 

message: From the Financial Times 10 July 2015, Vladimir Pozner: the ‘face’ of Russia: “The red cotton stitching on the buttonhole of his chequered sports jacket, signifying his membership of the Légion d’honneur, suggests that his admiration of France is reciprocal.”
The FT’s report suggests that there are non-flamboyant ways to show membership. Might the article mention these? JDAWiseman (talk) 13:19, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added a reference to this near the end of the "Classes and Insignia" section. glv (talk) 21:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red cotton stitching 

message: The side bar lists the number of actual members for each class but you need to go to the membership heading to realise the figures were as at 2010. The French language edition indicates it was at 15 July 2010. Under membership is the quota for each class which totals 125000. The total number is estimated at one million, including about 2,900 Grand Cross. The French language edition states ‘In 1962, there were 320,000 living recipients: General de Gaulle reformed the same year the code to set the maximum number to 125 000’. Unfortunately, the only class total available is about 2,900 Grand Cross of which the present quota is 75 living recipients. Extrapolating that number suggests that the total number for the five classes may be more like five million recipients. I would not use that total but it does suggest the one million total members quoted is an underestimation. Anthony Staunton (talk) 17:02, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello. One thing to keep in mind is that one hundred years after the order was created, at the beginning of the 20th century, the number of living recipients was only 45,000. Then the number of living recipients grew to reach 320,000 in 1962, and now it is 92,000. The official web site actually says "Depuis la création de l’ordre, près d’un million de citoyens ont obtenu la Légion d’honneur" which means the 1,000,000 figure hasn't been reached yet, at least not for "citoyens", which I would assume are French nationals. Sources: for the 45,000 ; for the quote in French. Thanks and regards, Biwom (talk) 18:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I am surprised at a figure less than a million. I am disappointed that such a prestigious award lacks reliable statistics. Anthony Staunton (talk) 17:23, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Legion of Honour awards underestimated? 

message: The 3 "List of" pages in the See also sectionhave the spelling Légion d'honneur. Either they should be changed or this article's title should be changed. Mcljlm (talk) 02:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency