Talk:Uzair

message: This Article needs a complete over-haul and re-write. I don't have time to do it myself. But please mention Al-Jahiz, and the religion of the Yahud which is explained in detail. Also Al-Jahiz's decision to identify Jews as the Yahud so that the term has stuck in modern Arabic. Yahud is clasical Arabic for an Idumean sect known by every scholar worth his salt. Have a loot at the article "people of the book" in the Encyclopaedia of the Quran for a start. See, what you are currently doing is writing an article based upon common unpublished ignorant assumptions of the masses and not doing the research any good reporter should do. 82.6.115.62 (talk) 07:26, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to start putting in a little info from what you are talking about (e.g. the fact that "Uzair" is the Arabic term for the Mandic "Uthra" worshipped by the Gnostic Jews) but it was deleted by a Communist-Christian Sysop who threatened to block me if I continued to put in references.81.103.121.144 (talk) 21:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I'm not a sysop.  Second, those were standard warning templates.  Third, you were not just adding a little bit of info, you were trying to enforce a POV with your edits, most of which did not include references.  Lastly, what I identify as has nothing to do with this.  Ian.thomson (talk) 00:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: re-write

message: reverted the old content structurem, do not use POV "claim" - as from Islamic perspective it is not a claim and that is what this article is. I will strongly recommend that those adding to Jewish view create a new article on Jewish view of Ezra, as its already a big section of Jewish perspective with repetitive views. ~atif Talk 02:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, what is it then, besides a claim? An assertion? A statement? It is all the same thing. Islam never makes a claim that Ezra is divine, neither does Judaism. It is only Islam's contention ABOUT Judaism which makes such a claim. As for "Jewish view.." being that Ezra was a Jewish prophet, born a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew, the main article is the proper place for that. In this article, to support WP:NPOV, any claim that Islam makes about Judaism needs to be balanced by Judaism's response, if the claim is felt to be completely erroneous, as is the case in this situation. -- Avi 13:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: How about "Quranic statements about the Jewish perspective", do you feel that more NPOV? -- Avi 13:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Islam asserts that some Jews considered Ezra as divine, it does not blame Judaism's tenets. Thats why read second verse, it says "They take their priests (Ahbar) and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah ... yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah". Which means they were commanded through scripture pure monotheism, but some still got strayed. Hope you get Quranic view now? ~atif Talk 01:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think a "response"-"claim" section is appropriate. We can write down all those information in a single section. --Aminz (talk) 22:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish perspective, content structure 

message: Yahel Guhan, please don't make angry exaggerations of "massive censorship". in this edit, you restore a sentence (which adds no new information) sourced to "contenderministries.org", a website of dubious reliability; you restore a paragraph which consisted of unsourced original research, and you reverted my correction of a quote. please explain your edit. ITAQALLAH 23:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please explain how it is of "a website of dubious reliability". Yahel Guhan 23:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: here's a more constructive idea: why don't you explain how that page is a reliable source? what new information does it add to the article? ITAQALLAH 23:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conterderministries

message: Hi Avi,
Thanks for shortening the passage on the Jewish view of God. Regarding "A fundamental tenet of Judaism is that God is not bound by any limitations of time, matter, or space, and that the idea of any person being God, a part of God, or a mediator to God, is heresy", it is sourced to Maimonedes  etc who come from after Islam. I know that Islamic and Jewish philosophy had a lot of interplay and I am sure that this explains the current Jewish orthodox view. But I am not sure if such a Greek-based philosophical understanding of monotheism was present in the Jewish prophetic era. The sacred writers seem to have been using the anthropomorphic expressions for God less hesitantly (though I know that the current orthodox Judaism interprets them as metaphoric). I was reading something about the Kabbala the other day. They seemed to be less strict. 
Can you possible please source this statement with references preceding Muhammad? Not that it is necessary but I'd guess it improves the article.--Aminz (talk) 09:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maimondes is acting as a codifier of discussion surrounding the Oral Law that existed from the time of  Sinai. As I mentined above, this is so fundemental to Judaism that there was no need to specifically state it. However, there is the reference to Exodus Rabbah, which is accepted as being handed to Moses at Sinai as well, and codified around the time of the Mishna, which predates Muhammed by four to five hundred years. -- Avi (talk) 16:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Avi, I do not refer to monotheism itself, but to a philosophically developed form of monotheism (as in God is not bound by any limitations of time). But never mind. I am happy with leaving it as it is in the article. --Aminz (talk) 00:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another request 

message: Britannica says it was written probably around 350–300 BC and not by Ezra himself. But I'd guess the Jewish tradition has it written by Ezra himself. From my perspective, mentioning that the book of Ezra "predates Muhammad and the Qur'an by around 1000 years" gives a larger time span for heretical views being developed. Would you please let me know if this is the reason we are mentioning this time span? Thanks --Aminz (talk) 00:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book of Ezra 

message: This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write.  This is how the article, as of December 6, 2007, compares against the  six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?:  The prose is well written, but there are these problems. 
* In some quotes it is unclear what the paranthesis refer to. If they were NOT part of the original quote, please replace them with square brackets, per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations. I am specifically thinking about these sentences: 
** "particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, (and) could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted."
** "chronological and geographical inaccuracies and contradictions; theological impossibilities (anthropomorphic expressions, stories of fornication and whoredom, and the attributing of sins to prophets), as well as lack of reliable transmission (tawatur) of the text."
* And this sentence is incorrectly formulated: Ibn Kathir, in his Qur'anic commentary, mentions the reason for Jewish exaltation of Ezra was that he could write down the Torah out of his memory while, Moses could not get the Torah but in a book however "'Uzair got it without a book" 
* Note that  is not recommended for article quotations, per the same guideline.
:2. Factually accurate?: Lots of citations to various sources, very nice. 
:3. Broad in coverage?: Yes 
:4. Neutral point of view?: Yes 
:5. Article stability? Yes 
:6. Images?: Sufficient 
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved.  After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again.  If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice.  Thank you for your work so far.— Fred-J 01:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Fred for your review. We will fix the issues you raised as soon as possible. Thanks again for the view. --Aminz (talk) 01:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

text: echoing my thanks too for the review ~atif Talk 08:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Fred, I have made some changes to the article. Would you please let me know if it looks good now. Thanks --Aminz (talk) 03:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It looks good now, and I am passing the article. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations! / Fred-J 11:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article nomination on hold

message: Congratulations, all. There were some issues at the start of the article, but thanks to the collaborative efforts of many people from very diverse backgrounds, the article is now considered one of the best the wiki has to offer, full of reliable quotes and impartially written and flowing prose. Well done, one and all. -- Avi (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: great part is that it reached its GA status within a month of its creation (7-Nov) :) ~atif Talk 00:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Congratulations to you too Avi. And thanks very much for your edits to the article. --Aminz (talk) 03:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA status

message: After reading this article, I feel confused. The first sentence reads: "Ezra (Arabic: عزير, 'Uzair, Turkish: Üzeyir) was a priest and scribe who returned to Jerusalem from Babylonian exile." This is fine for Ezra, but this is "Islamic view of Ezra", isn't it? The first sentence must summarize the Islamic view instead of saying who he was. The lead says: "One Qur'anic verse (Qur'an 9:30) refers to a person named Uzair worshiped by Jews as "the son of God". Uzair is usually identified by Muslim commentators with the biblical Ezra, or sometimes with a man who slept for three hundred years. Modern scholars have also suggested the Biblical Enoch, Azazel and Osiris." This point is not found anywhere else in this article, so this sentence is not in accord with WP:LEAD. Is it only Qur'an 9:30 that calls Ezra "Uzair"? Is so, how is it called elsewhere, say, in the hadith? And if not, why does the sentence say "a person named Uzair" instead of "Ezra"? If there is a disagreement on whether Uzair actually refers to Ezra, why is this article called "Islamic view of Ezra" instead of "Uzair"? This problem permeates the whole article, as it hops from "Ezra" to "Uzair". What tradition does this passage come from: "After resurrection, he rode on his donkey and entered his native place. But the people did not recognize him, nor did his household, except the maid, who was now an old blind woman. He prayed to God to cure her blindness and she could see again. He meets his son who recognized him by a mole between his shoulders and was older than him. Ezra then led the people to locate the only surviving copy of Torah as the remaining were burnt by Nebuchadnezzar. He thus renovated the Torah to the Children of Israel."? When I read "Islamic traditions", I assume it means hadith, but no hadith are mentioned in this passage. The same applies to the Quranic verse just above it: the verse is for some reason in the section on traditions, though no hadith are cited. THe section title "Quranic statements about perceived Jewish exaltation" is weaseling and confusing. In this section, the paragraph on academic views is merely a collection of quotes. Is there a consensus academic view on this verse? Are there any groups of scholars who adhere to some theories? The article is silent about it, all one can read are quotes. Beit Or 18:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the comment. I have made some changes accordingly. There does not seem to be any academic consensus re the identity of Uzair, but there is a kind of consensus among Muslims (regardless of how that evolved) on that issue. Therefore I think "Islamic view of Ezra" is an appropriate title. --Be happy!! (talk) 03:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article is very confusing 

message: Does anybody here know of Jewish pescher technique> According to it Eliasib, along with Ezra who would be son of God, and the current Davidic King would form the basis of the davidic trinity. These concepts are very very Jewish. This is likely what the Quran was condemning. (http://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/). Someone should include this explanation in the article. That said reading the Bible and Jewish history its very easy to imagine there being a time when Jews took Ezra as son of God. I mean how many have the Jews fallen into outright polytheism despite what their religion says. The Levantine cults for example held great power amongst the Hebrew even during the time of the first temple, we saw that the temple was filled with polytheistic idols. Or Hebrew women who refused to stop worshipping the "Queen of Heaven" without which they felt their problems would never cease. Its not that the Israelites didn't worship Yahweh, its that they worshiped others besides him. For example in the Bible we see that when the Assyrians invaded the Hebrews felt that their enemies' gods were stronger than their protector god, Yahweh.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.191.48 (talk) 19:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ezra being son of God is very Jewish 

message: This does not sound very scholarly and impartial (taken from the intro, 5/Mar/09): 
"According to Kate Zebiri, a senior lecturer at the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London, "No Jewish or extra-Qur'anic sources available to us mention worshiping of Ezra as the “son of God” by Jews."[5] According to Abraham Geiger who was very knowledgeable in Islam and won a prize for his essay "Was hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume aufgenommen?". The essay earned Geiger a doctorate at the University of Marburg. It demonstrated that large parts of the Koran were taken from, or based on, Rabbinic literature."
Also the absence of contemporary Muslim opinion on the issue is clear, despite non-Muslim contemporaries being cited. I think that the article is suggestive.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.226.168 (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If any of you are going to revert to a previous version of the article..  don't.  Whole scale blind reverts restore the use of a previously deleted template, that the article currently of course does not use.  If you are going to make edits, do it without a blind revert that restores deleted templates.— Dædαlus Contribs 01:48, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias? 

message: Could someone explain to me why this sourced section was removed?Per WP:NPOV we should represent all views on this matter Jewish and Muslim.--Shrike (talk) 10:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Material from Encyclopaedia Judaica

message: Hey guys, it's nice to finally see an article about something disagreed upon by Muslims and Jews to be (relatively) clear of rampant POV allegations and edit warring. Just wanted you to now that there's some grammar issues, in the article, so I'll be bold and fix them.PerfectGentleman (talk) 19:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar in the article 

message: Scholar Abdal Hakim Murad (Timothy Winter) has stated the following on this issue; "on Uzair as ‘son of Allah’, this Uzair clearly has nothing to do with Ezra the Scribe (whose name is not Uzair in Arabic anyway). Looking at the etymology, Gordon Newby (‘The Jews of Arabia’, p. 60-1) has identified him with Enoch, whom Jews often assimilated to Metatron, a creator-angel who was one of the ‘sons of Allah’ (b’nai elohim) in rabbinic Judaism in the period. The Qur'an is apparently taking the side of the Karaites against the Rabbinites, who had effectively divinised Enoch through identifying him with Metatron. There is not the flimsiest piece of evidence suggesting that Ezra is meant."[11]
The source cited is http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2009/04/03/a-reply-from-tim-winter-on-the-crucifixion/
The linked blog no longer exists. And a wordpress blog does not seem like a reliable source so I ask: Should we keep this piece of text of remove it? Human10.0 (talk) 07:54, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this remain part of the article? 

message: Sorry, but the "chief perspective" on Ezra is Jewish and not Islamic, because he was a Jewish figure predating Qur'an by almost a millennium. Same if "Uzair" is identified with any other Jewish figure from history. Qur'an's (read Muhammad's) completely baseless and slanderous claim is indeed clearly stated in the article to have no historic corroboration whatsoever - neither in Judaism's own sources, nor in the sources of other peoples of the Middle East. These people shouldn't be allowed to subvert this basic and self-evident truth so that they may feel cozy with their belief that "Qur'an is perfect" and cannot contradict reality (which it does, many times). An editor with an appropriate moniker "Emir" swiftly removed this paragraph despite me not editing anything in the article itself, on pretext of this "not being a forum", a lack of "good faith" and not putting it at the end of the page. While paragraphs above like the one titled "Ezra being son of God is very Jewish" which are clearly offensive and what matters most, mind-bogglingly untrue (especially in the light of the well-known Jewish rejection of such concepts for which we were killed, maimed and exiled for 2000 years by Christians), conveniently remained. Either remove everything or leave my statement alone. Here, I am putting it at the end of the page. 81.218.33.195 (talk) 10:18, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Muslims trying hard to promote the spurious claims of Qur'an about much earlier religions as "the chief perspective" on said religions