Talk:Serial killer/Archive 1

message: I have found some false facts about serial killers on this page, including the following:
1. Serial killers must kill on three ocassions (this has been changed to seven by psychologists).
:A. The writer assumes all serial killers are mentally abused and seek a form of revenge.
:B. The writer also assumes the serial killers are sexually motivated.
2. Compulsion is linked to sexual/power drive (this is rarely the situation). 
3. Result of brain damage (no known brain damage victims become homocidal, or we have more to fear from car accidents than ever before).
Serial killers don't mope around, grinding their palms together thinking "I'm gunna get my revenge!"  Nor do they kill to feel power or control.  Feelings of power and control come from abduction and/or the binding of a victim.  The killing must be done out of impulse, not through premeditation.  If they are driven by sexual desires, they are a serial rapist and murderer.
I've decided rather than deleting the power/control section, I'm going to comment it out until there is at least one killer marked by name.  I would hate to be proven wrong and destroy a perfectly good topic.
If you think I'm wrong, then PLEASE prove me wrong.  I've spoken to psychologists about serial killers, since my previous major was psychology, but I would feel better if an EXPERT got all the facts perfect, rather than my half-assed memory, or worse, Hollywood's opinion of a serial killer.  Dont assume that once you've seen an episode of CSI, you understand how a killer ticks.
ElijahD 13:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Important!

message: Does anyone else think it's necessary or even possible to make a seperate section dealing with the topic of women who kill?  There's a decent number of female serial killers, although they make up a small percentage of all serial killers. ONEder Boy 21:57, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Female serial killers

message: Could you please explain the point of your "generousity" to me (I´ve added a page on my site listing female serial killer bios)?
"revert spam --we already quite generously have one link to that person's site here, don't need multiple links to the same site..."(unsigned, but by User:EliZZZa)
:Generosity, meaning normally we do not let editors come here and add links to their own websites in blatant self-promotional moves. When I removed your spam from, what was it, hundreds of articles a year ago, I quite generously decided to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one link here. You evidently decided to push your luck and spammed a couple more links here. Be thankful I didn't delete the original one too. See WP:Spam, WP:External links, and other related policies. And, you know, come to think of it, now that I went to look at your site again, it is pretty spammy... way to try to cram a zillion words into the title field to try to get more results in Google. I almost removed that link right now, but decided for now to just update the name as it appears on the link to be more accurate.  DreamGuy 06:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  DreamGuy´s generosity 

message: Any good reason for that? Victims of serial killers are not worth to be mentioned? Or because it is another site from the same "person"?
(unsigned, but by User:EliZZZa)
:It's just another attempt for you to link farm your sites. You break your one website up into multiple domains to try to guide more traffic to it. Your other site already links prominently to that site. There's absolutely no reason to have multiple links to your site here.  DreamGuy 06:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of victimZZZ.net

message: Under Prevalence section: "Cultural differences could account for a larger number of serial killers, not just a larger number of reported cases."
While this makes sense that this would be a theory someone might propose, it seems like someone just made it up and is therfore questionable, as per Wikipedia's verifiability and "no original research" policies. Given that this assertion does not seem likely to be a common theory, the burden of proof is on the claim and I therefore think we need an example. 
The sentence could also be written better and should probably also be rephrased to something like "Some have suggested cultural differences may account for some of the differences in prevalence throughout the world," with an exemplary reference. 
A peer-reviewed psychology/sociology/anthropology journal might have such an article.
If no outside sources can be found, I suggest we remove this sentence.
Anagrammarian 20:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I have read about a similar theory. It had to do with the fact that serial killers kill almost without exception outside their personal social circle, nearly always choosing strangers or people they do not know as a person (so they can live out their fantasies more strongly). Cultural differences, i.e. strong bonds of familiarity in smaller communitys, are thought to inhibit this kind of behaviour, even if there is a higher cultural acceptance of violence and/or killing as a whole. I'll try and find the source again, but I can't promise anything. --TheOtherStephan 03:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural explanations an actual theory?

message: I agree with Anagrammarian's statements above, but also think that the article states many ideas that might be someone's opinion on how serial killers are or are not abused.  However, without citations, it seems these could simply be myths about bed wetting and abuse.  I'm not a psychologist, so I am not totally familiar with these claims, though I have heard teachers say it is not really accurate.  Changing this section or adding citations would help this article.
DanteDanti 9:46, 20 Jan. 2006
:I agree.  This whole article could do with more citation. Pdarley 20:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Citations

message: Some of this artical contains apocryphal stories...specifically in describing the "types" I think these need to be cited or replaced with specific examples protohiro 15:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs citations

message: The definition of serial killer requires that a person kill 3 people.
The description of Ed Gein states that he killed 2 people.
Thus, should Ed Gein even be mentioned here?
I agree.  Ed Gein was just a wacko with mommy-issues.  I am so tired of people acting like he was the proto-Dahmer/Bundy.  He wasn't.  A retardate with necrophilic and cannibalistic tendencies does not a serial killer make.  Not to mention the 'Leatherface' bullshit that everyone under the age of 21 seems to believe nowadays. Roland Deschain 23:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is Ed Gein a serial killer?

message: From "Notes":
:(1)The FBI estimates that there are between 35-and 50 serial killers active in a given year. If 5000 people a year are being killed by serial killers then each killer must be accounting for between 100 and 142 victims. Even Joel Norris's own figures of 500 serial killers (Michael Newton's Encyclopedia of known serial killers for the entire 20th century has contained less than 500 entries) mean that they would have to be killing ten people each annually, a number that few of known serial killers reach in their entire "careers".
Since it's completely unobvious where the '5000 people a year' number comes from, the paragraph is meaningless.  Hell, if 50,000 people a year are being killed by 50 serial killers, it means they're all killing three a day! zomg! FiggyBee 03:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: No citations, and I removed this para

message: I changed the figure in the introduction to 3, in keeping with information which contradicted this figure later in the article, and also in this discussion page. Although I think that a citation would be helpful here. Pathlessdesert 00:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it should state three, which is the basis that the FBI uses to determine a serial killer, we should not have random number all over the article, if someone can cite a better source and number to use then we can change it, but I think the FBI is a great source for info revolving around serial killers. --Chad 08:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 or 5? 

message: this is becoming a speculative list that could potentially dwarf the rest of the article. I removed this section and placed it below:
Because of the horrific nature of their crimes, their highly varied personalities and profiles, and their ability to evade detection and kill many victims before finally being captured and imprisoned, serial killers have quickly become something of a cult favorite, and have been featured in many novels, movies, songs, comic books, true crime works, video games, and other media.
The public's fascination with serial killers led to many successful crime novels and films about fictional serial killers, including Bret Easton Ellis' American Psycho; and especially Thomas Harris' The Silence of the Lambs and its Academy Award-winning movie adaptation, whose main antagonist, the cannibalistic serial killer Hannibal Lecter, has become a cultural icon. The character John Doe, from the movie Se7en, is another well-known fictional serial killer. Rob Zombie's first two films, House of 1000 Corpses and The Devil's Rejects, revolve around an entire family of fictional serial killers, featuring such characters as the visionary/hedonistic killer Otis, his more disorganized sister Baby, and her father, Captain Spaulding.  The 2006 comic book series Family Bones tells the tale of the Copeland Murders in Missouri. Ray and Faye Copeland were the oldest American couple sentenced to death.  Their great nephew, Shawn Granger wrote the series as an insider. The comic book Johnny The Homicidal Maniac revolves around a serial killer that drains the blood out of his victims and uses it to paint a wall in order to keep an unknown monster from escaping.
One of the first and most popular psychopaths in film history is Norman Bates from Alfred Hitchcock's film Psycho.
Serial killer memorabilia and serial killer lore is a subculture revolving around the legacies of various infamous and notorious serial killers. While memorabilia is generally confined to the paintings, writings, and poems of infamous killers, a market has expanded in recent years with serial killer encyclopedias, trading cards, and even action figurines. Some of the best known articles of serial killer memorabilia include the clown paintings of John Wayne Gacy and the poetry of Jack Unterweger.
In anime there are serial killers like Johan Liebert in MONSTER, Barry the Chopper in Full Metal Alchemist, or Chopman in Yu-Gi-Oh (manga only). Jin-e Udo, Kenshin Himura's first powerful enemy could be classified as a serial murderer, and a torture murder since he loved seeing the blood of his victims and making a worthy opponent suffer.
Not sure what should be done with this material. Any ideas?
Pathlessdesert 01:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We already have a List of fictional serial killers.  I'd say put the general information (the first and third paragraphs) back, and put a link to the above-mentioned article. FiggyBee 01:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serial killers in popular culture...

message: "Many experts have claimed that once serial killers start they cannot (or only rarely) stop."
What experts? In what field of study? How many "experts"? When have they made such claims? Where are these claims published?Et2.geiger 04:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasel words used in article.

message: Maybe it's just me...but I found this statement to be extremely, and unnecessarily, inflammatory:
"Would anyone have some statistics on "Muslim" serial killers. They are known as Jihadists, but they are much more often serial killers and mass murderers than whites, blacks and hispanics put together.Let's remember too that Islam is not a race, but an ideology that promotes these killings." (Defining Serial Murder section, last paragraph)
This seems to me to be awfully close to the comment made by Pope Benedict several months ago that sparked so much outrage in the global community. While it is true that Jihad is an Islamic concept, Islam promotes neither mass killing nor serial killing. The above comment would be akin to "Christianity is an ideology that promotes genocide" (as evidenced by the Anti-Semitic and Anti-Islamic nature of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Palestinian genocide).
I don't believe that that comment is accurate, as I do not believe the one featured in the article is. Furthermore, I don't believe either is relevant in a discussion of "serial killers," particularly as defined earlier in the article. For fear of being labeled an "editing extremist," I thought I'd bring this to the attention of the knowledgeable Wikipedia community, and let this progress as it will. Suppressio nocturna 21:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Offensive...?

message: Hervey M. Cleckley used the metaphor "mask of sanity" to describe psychopaths rather than serial killers per se. His book The Mask of Sanity: An Attempt to Clarify Some Issues About the So-Called Psychopathic Personality details his theories about the cause of the disorder, a description of characteristic personality traits, and several vignettes of people with the full personality disorder as well as those who show hints of the same disorder.
He chose the metaphor because unlike a patient suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, whose behavior and thinking is readily identified as abnormal, the psychopath can come across as intelligent, worldly, self-assured, and competent. This contrasts with their vacuous handling of relationships, pointless and easily discovered crime, and other bizarre, senseless behaviors. Cleckley sees them as having something akin to a semantic aphasia; the world of emotions—their ability to motivate—does not penetrate their psyches.
Robert D. Hare, however, takes a much less sympathetic view of psychopaths, and I do not know if he makes use of the phrase "mask of sanity." He sees them as definitely sane but also morally depraved. He believes their antisocial behavior is very much deliberate, and their emotional detachment is a consequence of their self-centered attitude. He does not see them as buffoonishly making their way through life but rather as calculatingly manipulating and exploiting others to get what they want.--NeantHumain 01:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Mask of Sanity

message: While the pervasive image of the white male as a serial killer is merely a stereotype, white males are more likely to be serial killers than male African Americans or male Hispanics. African Americans make up 12% of the American population but 5% of serial killers. Hispanics account for approximately the same percentages. Whites make up around 75% of the population but 90% of all serial killers, making whites proportionately more likely to be serial killers. [1]
The above is one of the most racist statements I have ever seen in a wikipedia article.  Can someone clean this up to make it not sound like the entire Caucasian population is a group of sociopathic murderers?  Perhaps fix it up to say "serial killers are more likely to be white" than "whites are more likely to be serial killers." Kakashi-sensei 02:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Food for thought: blacks rape at a rate six times the rate whites do; in terms of black and white, interracial gang rape is an almost entirely black phenomenon (roughly 3000 a year vs. roughly zero a year); should these facts go into the rape article?  I totally agree with your assertion that the statistics cannot be racist, but I've had a difficult time making the argument that inclusion of those statistics in articles isn't racist either - in other words, your policy doesn't seem to be overall Wikipedia policy.  Mr. Me —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.161.171.62 (talk) 19:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Racism

message: It has been quite frustrating for me as I have observed many different sights including this one that referr to David Berkowitz as a serial killer.  I find it to be frustrating because the facts that have been uncovered in regard to "The Son Of Sam Murders", continue to go unrecognized by so many authors, and so many pass Berkowitz off as another crazy killer.  Truth of the matter, there is a web of deceit that ventures much deeper and involves many people. Berkowitz was a member of a satanic cult and the reason behind the murders is much more complex than the act of a serial killer.  These acts, not random, were more than likely a cover up for something that involved the workings of the cult that Berkowitz was a member of.  His arrest was a diversion, a bone for the media to push, and the public to believe that the killer was found and the police solved the crime, not true.  Berkowitz himself was not responsible for the deaths of all of the victoms.  That does not mean to say that Berkowitz is not guilty, he participated in the acts, but not alone.  There is an extensive amount of information about this subject matter in, Maury Terry's book  "The Ultimate Evil" that he wrote in 1993 and updated it in 1997.  Terry is a investigative reporter that heavily submerged himself in this subject to the point that his life is at risk for what he knows and what he has revealed. This book is very interesting and it reveals the interworkings of a cult titled "The Process Church" to an alarming degree.  In the book Terry even maps out how Charles Manson was involved with this cult and that Manson's motivation to commit the infamous murders, originates with in the cult, although Manson made the task of murder fit his own distorted motivations ultimately--65.89.231.243 19:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: David Berkowitz

message: :...or, more correctly, serial murderer... []
Why more correctly? Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 21:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Serial Murderer" is the more formal term used in criminology texts. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Serial Murderer

message: The article reads:
"Missionary killers differ from other types of serial killer in that their motive is generally non-sexual"
I believe it should use the plural of "serial killers".  Meaning it would read:
"Missionary killers differ from other types of serial killers in that their motive is generally non-sexual"
If anybody is more confident in their English than I, please either adjust the article or simply remove this entry from this discussion page.
Thanks
DRA 03:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grammar Check

message: I've created an infobox.  I'm not sure if it's good enough to implement so if anybody wants to take a look at it check out Template:Infobox Serial Killer —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ONEder Boy (talk • contribs) 00:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: Is there a wiki that lists the body counts for serial killers domestically/globally?
I was looking around and couldn't find one.  It'd be interesting to see which ones were more prolific vs. notorious.  TotalTommyTerror 19:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Body Count list?

message: "The accepted stereotype of American serial killers is that they are disproportionately likely to be white and male, but there have been exceptions." 
*WTF? Since when? The DC sniper was black. This may be true but it's a far cry from widely accepted! The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.97.211.4 (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although that is true that the DC Sniper or Snipers were black, the stereotype is used to describe the general public perception of a serial killer, which have mainly been White Males 25-35 years of age. there have been many others including blacks and females but it is very widly accepted but as with most stereotypes they are not nessessarly right. --Chad 06:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: White serial killers

message: This article is all over the place and says the same thing in more than location and there isn't many sources,  it is scattered in the info so I have tried alittle to help remedy this, if someone can help by adding sources, I will do my best to source it out over the next few days hopefully this meet with everyones liking. --Chad 06:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: What about people who are on a very short fuse and throughout their life kill more than three people in incidents of temper loss, which category of killer do they belong in?
82.9.31.149 10:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Spree killer. VolatileChemical 05:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, scratch that...that actually does qualify as serial killer, I'm afraid. VolatileChemical 05:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Temper loss? 

message: Why is one only a serial killer after one has been killing for at least thirty days? The Ipswitch killer began his killings on December 2, 2006. By December 15, 2006, he had five victims dead. Are we to assume that as late as January 1, 2007, the Ipswitch killer could not correctly be called a serial killer? That's crazy. We have to either cite a source for that 30 day definition in the introduction very fast, or it's coming down. VolatileChemical 06:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Five killings in fewer than 30 days would be a spree killer and not a serial killer. It's not coming down, this is pretty basic information when it comes to serial killing. A source would be a good idea, but it's so fundamental that removing it before the source gets up would damage the article tremendously. DreamGuy 06:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Freaking every reference on the topic in the world mentions the 30 days idea... It has nothing to do with moon cycles, it has to do with differentiating psychology of killers... ones who methodically kill over time, ones who go on a quick spree over a short time, and ones who kill a bunch of people at once. How can you have read anything about serial killers ever and not known something like this? DreamGuy 19:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's this about having to be over 30 days? 

message: I think the weasel words tag is excessive, as there are only a few lines the anon editor who placed it there felt significant enough to tag, and those tags should make the overall tag unnecessary. I also don't think there's much weaseling going on at all in the first place, though fact tags to invite sources are certainly welcome. DreamGuy 06:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasel words tag

message: I made some changes to the Serial Killer article, took out some weasel words, cleared areas that required citation, and made some small changes that pushed the article into the neutral zone that it needs to be in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snakeeyedhawk (talk • contribs) 
:And I reverted all of that, as it got rid of important, factual information, replaced it with incorrect information. This was some pretty basic stuff core to the concept of serial killers. DreamGuy 02:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edited the Serial Killer article 

message: I work as a forensic psychologist and while I'm not a serial killer specialist I have researched the area enough to believe I would have heard of things such as the following.
"Some serial killers go to lengths to make their crimes difficult to discover, such as falsifying suicide notes, setting up others to take the blame for their crimes, and faking gang warfare" 
-There are cases where I have heard of falsified suicide notes, but faking gang warfare and setting up others? Could someone provide a source here? I'll gladly accept it if that is infact true, but a source is something needed.
Much of the article is well written and organized but it is completely unsourced and this calls into question the credibility of much of the information here in within among readers. Editers should start adding sources to whatever piece of infomation they add.
Not to mention the article is extremely plain. Pictures anyone? Media pictures of serial killers aren't IP, they are public property so pretty much any one of the many pictures of serial killers available on the web could be used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by  (talk • contribs) 
:You are incorrect on the photos. Most of them are not public property. Ones made by law enforcement should be fine though, but not random ones taken from books and newspapers and so forth. DreamGuy 09:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article needs sources, badly.

message: For the sake of you and the other poster I have researched wikipedia policy.
"Wikipedia:Verifiability says that any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source, as do quotations, and the responsibility for finding a source lies with the person who adds or restores the material. Unsourced or poorly sourced edits may be challenged and removed at any time. Sometimes it is better to have no information at all than to have information without a source. See that page for more information about Wikipedia's policy on sourcing."
No name guy is right that you should begin sourcing your article or not post at all. His source is reliable because it is not original research and it doesn't depend on the website it links to as the website is simply "reporting" information that is public news (i.e the quote of a third party involved in relevant discussion)
Both of you should stop the childish editing back and forth, and DreamGuy you will have to accept the sourced information as pertaining relevantly to the article and find more of your own sources. I will be contacting administration if you keep abusing editing rights by censoring sourced information and passing off your own un-sourced information as valid.Editor18
:The things being deleted are sourced all over the bloody place. If the anon user (you?) bothered to look he'd find them all over. Tons of articles all over are entirely unsourced. That is NOT an excuse to remove the whole page. I would argue that these sections have not been "challenged" per the verifiability policy, as that's for if there is a legitimate dispute. There isn't any. It's just some anonymous ignorant person ripping out the most important parts of the article. The things being deleted are the ABSOLUTE LAST things on the article that should be deleted, as they are by far the most well known, least controversial, and trivially sourced. It's odd that out of all the whole entire article the things this person is yanking out. It's bizarre.
:And I do not have to accept "sourced information" when the sources do not meet reliability guidelines. Don't threaten me wiuth contacting administration when you yourself are the own abusing policies here to support an anon editor who is most likely yourself. I've looked at your edit history, and it consists largely of spamming links to nonnotable messageboards, completely in violation of multiple policies here. If anything you and your anon edits should be the one who is worried. DreamGuy 09:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: DreamGuy

message: "Arguably the biggest field producing serial killers is doctors, followed closely by nursing"
While this may be true isn't it more likely that the professions listed are an effect rather than a cause of the serial killing. Meaning that a person with the potential to become a serial killer is more likely to go into medicine than any other field, either because of the close contact with a wide range of people, the complete trust associated with those professions, the ability to work with patients bodies and possibly perform or assist in surgery, or all of the above.66.176.172.119 06:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murderous medicine