Talk:Monaco Grand Prix/Archive 1

message: The year of the race featured in this picture is unknown. However there are clearly Michelin trucks which would mean it's 2001 or later. One of the cars is a Toyota so it must be 2002 season or later. Zepter's sponsorship of the Monaco GP ran from 2000-2004 which puts the image either 2002,2003 or 2004. This would correspond with the EXIF data which states the image was taken 1 June 2003, which is the correct date of the 2003 race. I have therefore changed the information page to reflect this. Alexj2002 14:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NIce detective work! 4u1e 07:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image:Monaco grand prix race over.jpg

message: Quick Q: When and who was it that last took a swim in the drink? Article states that it was in the 60s, but is not specific. (I believe that it is notable enough for full inclusion, but I know not the answer.)-slowpokeiv 16:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've altered the article to mention only Alberto Ascari at the top, because Paul Hawkins' swim is mentioned later on in the notable grands prix section. Readro 21:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drivers Swimming 

message: Senna and G. Hill, most obviously. Their achievements are mentioned in the lead (correctly, I think) but don't appear further down the article. We could cover this in a section on 'notable drivers'. Who else, if any, would be in there? 4u1e 08:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Off the top of my head, possibly Prost, Schumacher and Mansell. Mansell was always very quick, but just never won. Readro 19:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Prost should be there as well - Being the only Frenchman to win their more then twice is notable, isn't it? --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 13:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right - let's add Prost too. --4u1e 18:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable drivers 

message: "Only three cars finished the race."
This seems a bit misleading. Three cars finished on the lead lap, four cars were classified as having finished. Frentzen in fourth was in the pits when the flag fell, so was lapped before the end of the race and therefore classified. Source:http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr587.html How could this be reworded to better say this? Shall I change it to only four cars finished? Alexj2002 14:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done --4u1e 16:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Where is it listed as a record (what's your source?) Alexj2002 09:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1996 Race 

message: Didn't Jack Brabham push his car to the finish here one year? (1950s?) I know he did at the US GP  in 1959, but thought he'd earlier done it at Monaco. I'll check it out next week. --4u1e 16:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well remembered! My book says that during the 1957 race, his fuel pump failed five laps from the end, and he pushed the car half a mile to eventually finish sixth. Readro 19:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brabham pushing a car to the finish? 

message: I can't find one instance of Graham Hill being called King of Monaco or Ayrton Senna being called Master of Monaco. I've found several sources that say Hill was called Mr. Monaco but no hint of Senna having a nickname. Readro 10:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I should change it to match your references - if we find references for the others later we can change it back. --4u1e 12:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think I managed to get the Senna nickname referenced :). --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 14:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Skully - I hate to mention it, but I think the reference you have used has been copied from an old version of the wikipedia Ayrton Senna article. Try comparing the wording with versions of the Senna article from the back end of last year. Very similar wording can be found on Reference.com, which normally draws its material from Wikipedia as well. As no firm reference for 'Master of Monaco' is given in the Wikipedia article, the whole thing becomes a circular reference and unfortunately proves nothing. Bummer. :-(  Googling around, I can find the title applied to Senna, Hill and Schumacher - often in association with various prints (, , ). Although all three drivers have been casually referred to as 'master of monaco', I've found nothing online to suggest that this was ever a 'title', which is what the article currently implies. I think it needs to go until we can find a proper reference saying something like "Ayrton Senna was often titled 'Master of Monaco'" or words to that effect. Preferably in a hard copy publication. --4u1e 20:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, it looks like we'll have to wait until I can rent out the book I used to reference some things in the Hill article, which will be in about September, can you guys wait till then?  
I think we have to go with what Readro has and just refer to Graham Hill as 'Mr monaco' and remove the other titles. --4u1e 20:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've found a source for Graham Hill being King of Monaco! But I've found that the nicknames are referred to twice within the article, maybe we should merge the last paragraph of the lead-in with the Notable drivers section? Readro 13:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Also found a vague reference to Senna as Master of Monaco, in Chris Hilton's biography. Will that do? Readro 14:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Things appearing twice isn't a problem - if the first time is in the lead, and the bit in the main body of the article is more detailed than what is in the lead. I'm a bit suspicious of the 'vague reference' though - there are lots of these on the web, but if they're as vague as the ones I linked above I'd be inclined not to. --4u1e 18:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's quite vague, so maybe we should take it out. Readro 21:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The titles are quite subjective anyway really. It's easier to back up Senna was the most successful driver because he won more races than anyone else than Senna was known as the "Master of Monaco" (by who?). I'd say take it out. Alexj2002 22:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. --4u1e 07:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicknames 

message: Skully - excellent idea for a section: I should mention steering lock as well, at times in the past (don't know if currently or not) teams have found it necessary to fit a new steering rack and possibly even redesign the whole front suspension in order to get round the Loews/Station/Gasworks etc hairpin.
However, like the lap description I think this should be moved to the Circuit de Monaco as it's about technical changes for the circuit not the Grand Prix itself. Looks like we might be getting two articles for the price of one! --4u1e 11:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe ;-)...oh and thanks for the compliment :-) I thought I might as well put my "National Award in Engineering" and *some* of my technical know-how to some use... --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 13:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a nice idea, but I'd have to afree with 4u1e here - it belongs in the circuit article. Readro 15:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll move it over to the other article then. Cheers. --4u1e 17:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technical Analysis 

message: Um, I have never heard of the "triple crown of motorsport", furthermore, has anyone ever won this so called "triple crown"? If so, someone please educate me. Thanks... -slowpokeiv 16:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard of it, but I couldn't provide you with any references.  However, take a look at Triple Crown - it's there as well!--Diniz 16:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd prefer hard copy references, but for now see: www.formula1.com, www.forix.com and www.forix.com. all reputable sites ;). I'll ref the article from these, but if anyone's got hard copy refs that would be better. --4u1e 17:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected, thank you sincerely for the education. :) (And yes, I was too tired to see the mention of Mr Hill in the article, I apologize for that...) -slowpokeiv 19:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries. It was a little harder than I expected to find those references - the subject is raised less often than it was 15 or 20 years ago. In recent years drivers have become far more zoned into their respective  categories - it's no longer possible to get a one-off ride in an F1 Grand Prix and even at Indy the number of one-off appearances (certainly competitive ones) seems less than it was. F1 drivers are no longer permitted by their teams to race in other events, so it's become very much harder for anyone to even think of achieving this - Montoya could do it, although I imagine there's a clash between the NASCAR schedule, which is insanely crowded, and Le Mans. --4u1e 07:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Triple Crown? 

message: I made this graph for an F1 forum to illustrate the increasing speed of F1 cars over time.  Could it be suitable for usage in this article?
left|thumb|350px--Diniz 16:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a problem with this in that the layout of the circuit has changed to slow the cars down, so it is not a great way to display the information. Readro 20:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not many changes though - could you tag off where a major change has occured? I think  it would need some more explanation of what it was showing for a non-expert audience. --4u1e 21:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might look nicer in gnuplot too. Readro 21:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's OK now - this is probably the only race where you can do this relatively sensibly. In a way I feel it could look more polished, but I don't have the knowledge to tell you how! --4u1e 07:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, I've added vertical line and the circuit map from the article.  The changes should be visible soon...--Diniz 12:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Back seat editor here - Can you make the wording bigger. There's room to do it and as a picture at this size it would need to be bigger to be readable. --4u1e 17:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done!--Diniz 20:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Diniz, do you have the original Excel data (.xls file)? If so could you upload it to yousendit.com (enter your own email address and it'll send you the link) and post the link it gives here. There are a couple of things I think I can do to make it look nicer and the version above has been saved in JPG when PNG should have been used. Thanks, Alexj2002 15:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, just click here.--Diniz 17:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got a WIP version of this on my sandbox. It's missing the circuit changes boxes and the labels on the axis are temporary but wouldn't mind peoples opinion. Has too much clarity been lost? Would it be suitable for inclusion in the article or would it be better to have a link to it in a see also section? Alexj2002 18:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks nice, but the 3D perspective makes it too hard to read, in my opinion.  Let's wait for a 'neutral' view, though.--Diniz 20:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been working on one in gnuplot, this any good? It's an SVG too. Click here. Readro 22:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comparison of all three here. Readro's GNUplot one IMO is the best, as it looks good and is relatively clear even when size is reduced. A few changes need to be made before it can be used - it's continuous at the moment with no breaks for wet races. I should be able to fix this in a couple of days if necessary. Alexj2002 00:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the gnuplot version as well.--Diniz 13:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Graph

message: Not to say that this article is done yet, but I think it's close enough that I've nom'd it for Good Article status. Things I think it could still do with:
*Perhaps some more on the relationship between the race and Monaco's royal family (The Grimaldis)
*Something on the number of F1 drivers who live in Monaco and for whom this is their home race. I think Ayrton Senna once crashed out, stalked back to his apartment within a few minutes and wasn't seen for several days.
:-New 'Glamour' section covers these two to a certain extent. --4u1e 20:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We'll have probably finished by the time it's reviewed so I'd wouldn't dispute nominating it already. I'd agree with the summary above as well. Only thing I'd add is tidying up some of the pictures used but that's best done when the article is mostly done with. Alexj2002 13:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Things like "Some general guidelines which should be followed in the absence of a compelling reason not to: Start the article with a right-aligned image." from Manual of Style are what I meant by the above, we start with a left-aligned image. Alexj2002 14:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA nomination 

message: Same problems as with the Royal Box image discussed above. This uses an even more inflexible licence as it's noncommerical and with no-derivatives. I've removed it from the article and flagged it as a speedydelete on commons. Alexj2002 14:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image:DamonHill Monaco1994.jpg

message: Guys - I've put this up on the portal - probably slightly premature as not quite al tidied up, but I'm going to be on wikibreak for a while and it looks like activity has petered out here. I think it is a great improvement on its previous state and hope this meets the expectations of those who nominated it. Cheers 4u1e
:I agree. I think it should pass GA. Alexj2002 22:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Selected Article

message: Hi, it's a nice article and I enjoy reading it. However, there are some small things to fix first before it goes to GA:
* In the lead section, I found the following statements, which require a source, as it is a comparison between Ayrton Senna & Graham Hill. 
: I don't understand what you mean. The statement that Graham Hill is known as the "King of Monaco" has already been referenced under the "Notable Drivers" section. --Skully Collins 12:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, you know where, but for a reader? People read lead section first, not directly to the specific section. Thus they might raise a question like me: "well, if Senna won 6 times, why Hill with 5 times winning is called the king of monaco?". It's no harm — even suggested — to have one source cited multiple times in the article. All right, as you've told me where is the reference, I'll fix the lead section, and hence the GA status. Congrats for such a nice, compact and have reliable source of this article. — Indon (reply) — 14:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Circuit map inserted into article. cheers --Skully Collins 12:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think there should be a circuit map. After all, this page is about the Grand Prix, not the circuit. Readro 14:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A non-specialist reader like me will ask: "isn't grand prix is a racing car in a circuit?". — Indon (reply) — 14:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA comments 

message: Looking at this site, the best resource I can find on the net for pre-war racing, the Monaco GP seems to only have been part of the European championship in 1936 and 1937, although it was formally designated as an International Grand Prix (Grande Epreuve) from 1933 to 1939. Unless anyone knows differently I will re-word on that basis (when I get the time! I used my allocation this morning doing the research!) 4u1e 07:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. 4u1e 09:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Monaco part of the European Championship

message: The article is rather F1-centric. The lists of winners etc only feature F1 results. Should we be less POV and include pre-F1 results? (The effect of this would be to add Bugatti and Mercedes-Benz to the list of multiple winners). The wording could be tweaked in other places to reflect pre-F1 events. Anyone agree? 4u1e 20:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's still stuff you could do, you know. The references are not all in consistent Cite book, cite web etc format, which ought really to be sorted out as well. Cheers. 4u1e 11:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A further thought

message: Looks to me like the '48 race was a pre-championship Formula One race, as it was apparently won by a Maserati 4CLT , a pre-war voiturette, which I guess would have been eligible for F1 races post war. They certainly seem to have entered several F1 races in the early years of the championship. 4u1e 23:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that Grand Prix races in the immediate post-war period were made up of whatever cars that had survived the war. There's a fascinating story about some Alfa Romeo Grand Prix cars being hidden in an Italian cheese factory, but I digress. The FIA (possibly still called the AIACR at this point) created Formula A (which later became F1) to fit what cars were available, so that meant both 4.5 litre normally-aspirated engines and 1.5 litre supercharged engines. Thus voiturettes could compete. Readro 00:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which leads me to my next question - do we want or need to identify what rules the non-championship races were held to in the list of winners? 4u1e 07:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on this, but I'd be in favour of it. Readro 17:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1948 race

message: Blnguyen has objected to the 'notable races' section. (see Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates#Monaco_Grand_Prix). I don't really agree with the reasoning, but I'm not entirely happy with the current structure. Two thoughts for discussion:
# Are all the races listed really notable? Are the '65, '92 and '93 races really normally mentioned when discussing the race?
# Should we restructure the 'Notable races' and 'Notable drivers' sections into a single 'History of the race' section? This would include much of the same material, but would offer scope to mention other things, probably be more readable and get away from Blnguyen's concerns.
Views? 4u1e 19:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm working up a re-written history in my sandbox, if anyone wants to comment. 4u1e 16:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, no commment here, so I've transferred it from my sandbox to the article. The Formula One section is too long, the writing needs work and the references need tidying up, but I'm happier with the structure this way. 4u1e 21:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: FAC failed as of today, which is fair enough. I do think the article has improved through thisw process, however, thanks to all those who contributed. Looking at the comments, I think the following still need addressing:
* Referencing. Some still missing, format for others need standardising, including archiving where possible.
* Writing - needs an end to end copyedit. 1a was raised as an object at the review.
* WP:MoS - could do with a check against this as well.
Cheers. 4u1e 08:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAC failed 

message: Hi, I noticed that Ayrton Senna's Brazilian nationality has been mentioned *five* times in this article, which is fine.
However, shouldn't we mention other nationalities then? 
I wanted to add that five-time champion Fangio was from Argentina, and it has been deleted - 
why the bias against mentioning that? I don't think it ruins the sentence.
Whoever has a problem with it, please discuss it here before deleting it. Otherwise I will continue to maintain it.
Fangio is a legend, and denying this detail of his nationality strikes me as a little bit odd, especially when compared
to the mention of other racers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.230.152.137 (talk • contribs) 28 April 2007 
:I removed the detail, simply because the way it was added to the article (That 1950 race provided future five-time world champion Juan Manuel Fangio, from Argentina, with his first win in a World Championship race) was awkward and made it look like an extra irrelevant fact. You're right that Senna's nationality is noted five times, and that's probably too many. A driver's nationality is often used to vary the article and introduce the driver. In Fangio's case, that has been done by saying future five-time world champion  Juan Manuel Fangio instead of Argentinian Juan Manuel Fangio. Using the nationality 5 times suggests a lack of variety in the article, so that will be addressed. I think the "from Argentina" detail though looks out of place as it is, but will leave it for others to comment and decide on how to address it. AlexJ 23:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fangio

message: I did some copy editing today to try and clean this up a little bit. There were a few inconsistencies across the article so I fixed those up. I also removed some items from the first set of paragraphs that were covered again in more details later on in the article.
I'll leave the  on the page for now but if there are no objections I'll remove it in seven days. Nicko (Talk•Contribs) 05:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had another go through the article and removed the tag. It's not perfect, but it doesn't seem likely that it's going to get much attention this way, and it's in far better condition than some other articles! Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 20:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy Edit 

message: Would anyone here be against a re-nomination? Buc (talk) 12:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAC? 

message: how can Monaco GP be an F1 race since 1929 when the first F1 championship was held in 1950?  granted "F1 has roots in European Grand Prix Motor Racing", but still this reads as a factual error.
:It doesn't say it's an F1 race since 1929. It says the MGP has been run since 1929, and that the MGP is currently an F1 race but it doesn't connect the two facts. The second paragraph of the opening explains clearly it's history as to when it became an F1 race. On a side note, please remember to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ at the end - helps people keep track of the conversation. AlexJ (talk) 11:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  inaccuracy in wording in the opening paragraph 

message: I dont think its correct to say the Indy 500 is one of the most prestigious automobile races in the world. Maybe this is the thought amungst Americans but this isn't conservapedia, I think that should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.5.133.46 (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Beg to differ: : "(The Monaco Grand Prix) has become one of the most important races in the world, alongside the Indianapolis 500 and the 24 Hours of Le Mans. The three races are collectively known as the Triple Crown." It stays. AlexJ (talk) 20:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Indy 500

message: Could someone change the Nazi Flags for Micheal Scumacher, that signify the nationality of the driver.
Thank You  —Preceding unsigned comment added by ScroogeMcDuck (talk • contribs) 19:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Schumacher a Nazi?

message: Michael Schumacher holds the lap record with a 1:14.439 set in 2004 according to the official F1 site. I believe this should be included in the race information box along with most wins by a driver and constructor.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Number1schumacherfan (talk • contribs) 01:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. For some Grand Prix, like the British Grand Prix, where the venue has not been one event throughout the sports' history a lap record cannot be made because circuits aren't really the same length. Besides, lap records are really for circuit articles only, in this case it would be the Circuit de Monaco that he holds the lap record for. --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 10:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lap Record in Race information box?? 

message: Can anyone please change the german flag to the proper one ! Thanks  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.158.107.177 (talk) 08:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're referring to the flags for 1935-1937, then they already are "the proper ones" - the Nazi flag was the official flag of Germany during that period. DH85868993 (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: German flags

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thread_title: File:Monte Carlo Formula 1 tr map.svg Nominated for Deletion