Talk:List of aikidoka/Archive 1

message: :It is sometimes said that in Japan the term aikidoka (合気道家) mainly refers to a professional while in the west, any one who practices may call themselves an aikidoka.
Could some native Japanese speaker verify it (either way) ? Taw 20:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If we don't request any info for the people to be included in the list, it will be hopeless to keep it in good standards.  My suggestion is that each person on the list should need some short info as to why this person is famous. Maybe it would be better to comment it out - I suspect the list might get very ugly with this kind of notes all over - but I hope it can serve a purpose. I hope it will make it less attractive to add random names without info, and if there is not info given on a name, we can remove it after a while. / Habj 17:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The term Aikidoka 

message: What are these books sections? Are they sources, or just suggested further reading? In either case, I think they would suit better at the bottom of the page. Info on what part of the world they cover can be added although under a general "sources" or "literature" heading. / Habj 17:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved. The list of people in thow books though seemed awkward - I guess they should be in the list, but having them listed under the book they are in seems weird. I put those people here, so they can be transferred back to the list. // Habj 08:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books sections 

message: I just noticed, the names are not listed in alphabetical order (some are, some aren't). Is there a reason for this or...? Yeah, I like things to be neat :) --Sabate 01:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do the re-ordering and I'll do my best to keep it up for the new entries.Peter Rehse 06:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ordering of names? 

message: The comment by PRehse below is copied from my talk page. // Habj 08:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion is, something should work pretty much the same whether the link is red or blue. I have understood there is a continous fight here to stop people from adding their own not-so-famous teachers. Hidden comments in the wikicode, like the article has in the beginning (within ) has a downside in that they do not show until you already decided to edit the page. It does not show if you edit just of the part of the page either, as I did. I do not think it will work well. A short description of everyone in the list can be a means to make these people see "wait, does Paul sensei reallly fit in this list?" which is why I prefer this approach. IMHO it is more suitable for a wiki. // Habj 07:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Ah, that might be a danger I never thought of with that kind of descriptions in a list. Although I guess it is generally not so difficult to transfar that info to the article about the person I can see why this is not the standard method for lists. (There is sometimes a similar phenomenon on disambig pages, that info gets added there rather than in the article.) // Habj 08:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I should add I do not feel strongly on the subject. // Habj 08:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding description to the name or not 

message: Lists of people are not generally named "List of famous architects", "Lists of famous soccer players" etc. It is assumed that a certain fame or notability is required to get an article, and only subjects that should have articles should be included in lists. Therefore, I boldly moved the article from "List of famous aikidoka" to "List of aikidoka", and also added to the boilerplate text a note that this is a list of famous and well-known aikido people (which I believe is a more effective way of transferring this message to visitors and possible editors of the page, than having it in the page title. I saw this as obvious; if others do not, please move back and we can discuss it.
However, I think we should discuss the name of the page more than that. People added to this list generally are aikido teachers, so one option would be "List of aikido teachers". A few people though are known mainly for other things than their teaching. The Swede and official Aikikai shihan Jan Hermansson certainly teaches seminars at times even abroad, but he it mainly known as a practitioner not a teacher. I would suggest "List of aikido practitioners", since the usage of the word "aikidoka" differs - also, it is incomprehensible for those who do not know much about budo. Possibly even "List of aikido people" or "List of people in aikido" is a better idea, since it might be possible that someone got an amount of aikido-related fame for other things than their activities on the mat. Authors of wellknown aikido books, such as the two people behind the first aikido book in English (Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere from 1970, which still sells a lot - not that I really understand why) comes to my mind. I am sure there are other possible examples, besides authors of aikido books. // Habj 08:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The title of this page 

message: I am not familiar with the organisation Aikido Takemuso. What is it? The name "Takemuso" has been used for various organisations etc. among students of Saito sensei for a long time, and there are groups of dojos within a country that uses the name "Takemuso". In this case, does it refer to another name for the organisation of Saito junior, or yet another branch? // Habj 22:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent addition, top names of Aikido Takemuso 

message: It seems strange to me that Kazuo Chiba is not listed as a "Japanese aikidoka", since he was born in Japan. Perhaps this page should be more explicit about what puts someone into a particular geographic sublist. It seems organized by where they teach/taught, so the page should probably be clearer on that point. Mike Dillon 01:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, yeah. I was saying the page should be more explicit about that since it is only confusing to have an implicit "geographical" convention. Also, you may have noticed that Chiba is listed in both :Category:Japanese aikidoka and :Category:American aikidoka. So is that correct too? Like I said, any standard is confusing if it isn't made explicit. P.S. I fixed your link to the category since you really don't want talk pages in that category (hint, prefix the category link with a colon, like so: :Category:Japanese aikidoka). Mike Dillon 02:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: P.P.S. The parent category of :Category:Japanese aikidoka, :Category:Japanese martial artists says "Practitioners of martial arts from Japan" (my emphasis). To me, that means Chiba shouldn't be in :Category:American aikidoka. But if that's true, the whole thing is confusing because he's in the Japanese category, but listed under "North America" in the list... Mike Dillon 02:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: It's better after your change. Thanks. Also, sorry for not noticing that this was discussed earlier. Mike Dillon 05:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization 

message: My coworker, who practices Aikido (I don't) made a comment today that it would be interesting to have a lineage-based list of Aikido practitioners to see who learned from whom. Since it seems that there are an average of three or four "generations" from O Sensei to many current teachers, this seems feasible. I just thought I'd bring it up here in case anyone is interested. I don't think I'd be much help since I don't know too much about Aikido and I have other things going on. Mike Dillon 05:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lineage-based list 

message: Sorry, if I am horribly confused.  Is there some sort of criteria for being included in the list?   Is being a "Shihan" good enough? 
Specifically, I see Mitsugi Saotome and Hiroshi Ikeda in the list for North America, yet I don't see Frank Doran, who is one of the few non-Japanese folks granted title of "Shihan" by Hombu (as opposed to being granted title of Shihan by USAF).  http://www.aikido-west.org/instructors/doran.html
Come to think about it, up here, in the north, Claude Berthiaume ( http://www.aikidodelamont.com/claude-en.html ) has a fair bit of influence.   7th dan, USAF Shihan.   Is that good enough to be on the list?  
Secondly, are we listing Aikido pioneres?  Massimo di Villadorata started Aikido in Montreal, Canada, and at one point had the largest Aikido dojo in North America (I've heard reports of over 300 practicing members, but of course I weren't around back then).   I believe that he is currently 6th dan.  http://www.montrealaikikai.qc.ca/diVilladoratae.html  
Another candidate for addition would definitely be Henry Kono.  http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=435  He might not be big on titles, but he sure did alot to popularize Aikido, and make it fun.  He is one of the few direct students of O'Sensei still alive.
If we make 6th dan the cut off, I can think of half a dozen ASU instructors (myself coming more from ASU side of things).  WIlliam Gleason (Shobu Aikido), Kevin Choate (Chicago) and George Ledyard (Doshinokai) would be my "holy trinity", but there are plenty more - Dennis Hooker (Shindai), Paul Kang (Bond Street), and Tres Hofmeister (Boulder) are all very capable.    I guess I could make a page for each one of them.  
I don't think 6th Dan is a good cut-off - there are so many of them.  More important is what they contributed to the world of Aikido.  However, my feeling is that if they have a page then they should be included in the list by default.  Non-noteable people eventually disappear.  No page and a one line description is the next best thing and hopefully a tempory measure.  Just a name and it will probably be deleted.  All of the names you mentioned I think are worthy of inclusion and in fact if you could d me a favour and add one line descriptions (or delete) the pageless names in North America it would be appreciated.  I don't really know that neck of the woods that well although I have met Claude Berthiaume when I was in Quebec.  CheersPeter Rehse 07:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody attempted to add Frank Doran, but I removed it because the linked article said nothing about Aikido. I realize now that it was probably a different Frank Doran and that the link was wrong. Mike Dillon 15:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criteria for inclusion in the list 

message: There is a simple test to assess notoriety of people using Google. Enters the name of the aikidoka as an exact sentence then associate it with Aikido (to avoid homonymies). For Kazuo Chiba the search entry should be "Kazuo Chiba"" AND Aikido. This is not of course foolproof since it is biaised towards the Senseis who are active (giving seminar, having written books, etc...) and some senseis might be referred differently ("Chiba Shihan"), but that gave some indication, I think, about how well this person is known outside his immediate circle of devoted students. I ran the exercise to the list of famous North American aikidokas and here is the result:
More than 10,000 hits:
Terry Dobson, 12,800
Gaku Homma, 13,800
Hiroshi Ikeda, 23,500
Mitsugi Saotome, 22,600
Steven Seagal, 84,100 (everybody knows the reason why it's so high here :)
John Stevens, 34,400
Yoshimitsu Yamada, 13,500
More than 200 hits:
Kazuo Chiba, 788
Mitsunari Kanai, 564
Takashi Kushida, 690
Robert Nadeau, 686
Seiichi Sugano, 620
Akira Tohei, 479
Less than 200 hits
Eddie Hagihara, 24
Jack Mumpower, 28
Mutsuro Nakazono, 82
Stephen Ohlman, 56
Danielle Smith, 105
Interestingly, if you use last name + Sensei, the results come very differently for some people. We got:
More than 10,000 hits:
Ikeda Sensei, 12,700, 
Saotome Sensei, 22,200
Yamada Sensei, 18,400
Chiba Sensei, 13,900
More than 200 hits:
Dobson Sensei: 257
Homma Sensei: 551
Seagal Sensei: 658
Stevens Sensei: 385
Kanai Sensei: 819
Kushida Sensei: 529
Nadeau Sensei: 298
Sugano Sensei: 638
Nakazono Sensei: 1230
Less than 200 hits:
Akira Tohei Sensei: 121
Mumpower Sensei, 2
Hagihara Sensei: 12
Ohlman Sensei: 17
Danielle Smith Sensei: 35
Thought this to be interesting. Cheers. ArthurWeasley 18:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notoriety test using google 

message: I think Yasuo Kobayashi, Seishiro Endo and Kazuo Igarashi should be on this list.
Also would it be too big if there were country specific list of famous aikidokas example:
Country: X
Aikidoka 1 6.Dan
Aikidoka 2 6.Dan ?
Korppi76 09:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kobayashi, Endo and Igarashi must certainly be in the list. Would you mind starting creating an article or at least a stub on them and add the names in the list? As for country specific list, this might not be very easy to do (means there is no easy solution to this). Take the case of Seiichi Sugano, he is now in the United States and is listed under North America, but he was in Australia and had certainly help promoting aikido in Malaysia and was also a regular visitor in several European countries. If the rule is to list for each country, the important aikidoka names (in terms of contribution to the development of the art in that country) then Sugano would have be to be listed under many countries on three continents. Nobuyoshi Tamura is another example: he is the aikikai technical representant for Europe and has substantial number of followers in many of the western European countries, and also in non-european ones such as Morocco. In principle in terms of influence he should be listed under all these countries. You can of course restrict yourself to the present country of residence. In the case of Tamura, this would be France, but then some other aikidokas from Luxembourg, Belgium, Spain or Morocco could also claim that he is also the most influencial aikidoka in their respective country as well. That's why as a general rule, I think, continents were chosen instead of countries, to allow for more flexibility and limit the number of entries for each person(not sure why Philippines has a separate entry though).  ArthurWeasley 19:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can try to write a small stub about them when I have some time.Korppi76 08:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  Now there are small stubs for all 3 Senseis, could someone check them, I havent wrote wiki articles before.
Just add them to the list and they will be check out and thanks.  And please take a look at the changes made for future referencePeter Rehse 12:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I made mistage with Igarashi page... I put name in wrong order (Lastname, Firstname I was putting it Firstname, Lastname). How this can be fixed.Korppi76 14:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go to the Igarashi Kazuo page and click on the 'move' tab.You'll see instructions on how to proceed. Thanks for the new entries. ArthurWeasley 15:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry but I dont see 'move' tab maybe I am not looking right place? Korppi76 16:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done it. The article is now under Kazuo Igarashi. There are 6 tabs on top of each article named "article", "discussion","edit this page", "history", "move" and "watch". ArthurWeasley 17:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Hmm I have all others than that move one. Korppi76 20:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Kobayashi,Endo and Igarashi sensei?'''