Talk:Martyr

message: Christians of all three major divisions of Christianity--Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants--have long histories of killing other Christians in the name of orthodoxy.  The current article for the most part only treats of persecutions by Catholics.  Mention is made of the persecutions of Protestants under Queen Mary of England, for example, without reference to the fact that Catholics were martyred in England under the reign of her father King Henry VIII (e.g. Sir Thomas More, Cardinal John Fisher, and others) and hundreds others under her successor Queen Elizabeth.  As such, the writer unintentionally gives the impression of anti-Catholic bias.
Also, great care should be taken when citing "Foxe's Book of the Martyrs" as a historical source.  While it was, and to some degree remains, a classic of Protestant spirituality, both Anglican and Catholic scholars acknowlege that its primary purpose was to edify and inspire Protestants, and as such it contains many historical inaccuries.  Respectfully, --BTG 17:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Early discussion

message: The last three sentences at the end of "Hero or Villian?" section seem to be a digression into the discussion of war crimes rather than martyrs and are fairly POV as well:
In the West intentional efforts to kill as many civilians as possible are generally considered war crimes, as opposed to the death of civilians that is incidental to accomplishment of other goals, such as destruction of military or industrial infrastructure. Such fine distinctions are generally not made by anti-war and pacifist movements who denounce any death of civilians as war crimes and generally consider war a crime as of itself with essential moral equivalence between the two combatants, even if one of them kills civilians wholesale and other only accidentally. They are also not made by non-Western nations deemed guilty of war crimes under this standard because they would generally seek to establish a moral equivalence between their actions and actions of Western or American militaries.
Given that there weren't any objections, I've removed them from the main article mennonot 16:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed sentences for Removal from "Hero or Villian?" section 

message: :Many church historians believe that there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century than in the first 19 centuries combined.
Is there any proof to back this statement up? I would like to see who all these martyrs are.--Lucky13pjn 01:54, Jul 3, 2004 (UTC)
:I second that request for a reference. Surveying all martyrs over the last 19 centuries would be a huge task and perhaps impossible due to lack of documentation. I also wonder what definition of martyr is being used here.
:Well, it's been over two months, and since nobody has replied to back up this statement, I am going to remove it until someone can.--Lucky13pjn 18:26, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
I question the following statement, and ask for verification of it.
: Estimates of Christian martyrs in the 21st century are about 450 daily, and 160,000 yearly.
If it can't be verified, I think it should be taken out. Chris Peterson 10:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  20th century martyrs 

message: Muslims were subjected to persecution at the hands of the polytheists of Mecca; see Persecution of Muslims for more detail.
:I'm not sure how this pertains to the section.  I've left in "see Persecution of Muslims", but that link and the text doesn't seem to comment on shahid or martyrs.  While I have no doubt that Muslims were subjected to persecution, the Hadith addresses the concept of the shahid in an entirely different context.  I removed the text because it reads as a non sequitur.  I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong, so I would welcome any comment on my edits. - Viriditas
I'm not sure which Hadith you're referring to, but I put Sumaya in because, according to the hadiths cited in the page linked to, she was the first shahida (or indeed martyr of either sex) of Islam, at the hands of Abu Jahl. - Mustafaa 12:22, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: In Islam

message: I read somewhere that some group of victims of the Spanish Inquisition venerated those dead at its hands, mirroring the veneration of Christian martyrs, even when the pure form of their religion didn't allow this veneration.
The problem is that I don't remember if the group was the Crypto-Jews or Moriscos.
--Error 03:31, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Martyrs of the Spanish Inquisition

message: It redirects back to martyr. Would the term even be worth a new article? Just a minor thing, but still. Also, is it "shahid" or "shaheed?"
TaintedMustard 06:31, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Shaheed" 

message: There should probably be sections on martyrs from backgrounds than Christian and Muslim, especially Jewish. I couldn't do it, but I think it's desperately needed.
*I added a sort of stub--the phrase Kiddush Hashem, a brief quote from R. Ephraim ben Yaakov's famous account of the martyrdom at Blois (full description available at http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=112387 ).  Clearly, this is a very small amount of information, and more is desperately needed... but at least something's there now. Makrina 18:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish Martyrs/others 

message: Edited in the Greek text for the etymology. --CaveatLector 05:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek 

message: I'm trying to revert the vandalism by this user, but for some reason I can't. If someone can do it, it would be helpful. JHMM13 (T | C)   08:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  70.106.184.67 

message: Please provide source for the statement about more people martyred by the Angelican Monarchs than by the Catholic ones, or remove it.  I doubt that the number of Catholics killed could 'dwarf' the number of protestants killed under Queen 'Mary the Bloody'.
I agree. The section on Reformation martyrdom does not conform to the standards of neutrality expected here. Approximately 280-300 individuals were executed for religious reasons under Mary I. The Roman Catholic church recognises "Forty English Martyrs" from this period (canonised in 1970). Figures are complicated by the fact that some of those executed under Mary were probably Anabaptists, who would have been executed under Edward VI and Elizabeth I. Secondly, with one exception, Catholics were not executed for their religious beliefs specifically, but for treason/sedition.
More to the point, however, Anabaptists were not merely killed by Catholics, but by Lutherans and Reformed Christians as well. The claim in the article that Anabaptists somehow abandoned Christianity is hopelessly biased. They would certainly not have understood themselves as having done this.
:An old discussion but, no, the Catholic Church does not recognise only forty martyrs (see English Martyrs) and although "dwarfed" may be an overstatement, there are certainly more Catholic martyrs than protestants. --131.111.128.77 (talk) 14:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Catholic persecution in Britain 

message: Is there any basis for what I keep hearing -- that Muslim jihadists believe that martyrs are rewarded in the afterlife with 72 virgins? Does anyone know anything about that? --Hyphen5 03:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can read more about this here, particularly in and around paragraph 30. Aecis Find the fish 17:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  72 virgins? 

message: Towards the end of the article it is misspelled whjich.152.163.100.67 21:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misspelling of the word Which

message: I can't help but notice that the paragraph that starts "Hugh Barlow, in his new book Dead for Good: Martyrdom and the Rise of the Suicide Bomber (Boulder,CO: Paradigm Publishers, 2007), argues that..." is refering to a book that appears to be due to be published next year. As the book hasn't yet been published, I can only conclude that the preson citing it is involved in it in some way, and as such this strikes me as original research at best, and plugging one's own product at worst. 82.29.209.132 17:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's dancing on the line between reference and spam - I've moved it down to the reference section which is more appropriate. Richard001 20:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Book Plug?

message: Would it be proper to start a section on political martyrs in this article. Meaning: a person who is killed for their political beliefs, especially when that person represents a persecuted minority, and because of their death later becomes a symbol for members of some groups to rally around. Primary examples I can think of are Martin Luther King and Ghandhi. Or does that stretch and dilute the meaning of martyr too much?
69.95.233.36 20:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In South Asian politics, the term shahid is commonly used for political martyrs. --Soman 19:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: i agree. but there should be certain qualifiers for mention. jose rizal would be good as he has a day named after him in the philippines. but what about White Rose? it is questionable as to what differenciates between political treason and belief alone in reasons for execution. for instance Che Guevara is considered a martyr by many but he was executed for leading a guerrilla militia. see :Category:Executed revolutionaries, :Category:Executed writers and :Category:Executed activists many of whom had shady trials convicting them of reasons unrelated to belief. there is also cross over between religious and political martyrs under many communist dictatorships. and many other martyrs who might not fall into the political category who i think are worth mention. such as the executions performed by inquisitions for 'heretical propositions'. examples; apostates or scientists like Giordano Bruno. 
other section titles?
 war and politics 
 -warriors
 -nonviolent
 other martyrs
Some thing 21:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political Martyrs 

message: There is a paragraph in the 20th century section which is really stretching the boundary here. Martyrdom is about belief in a higher ideology or cause, for example religion or political belief. Dying for one's friends or children doesn't really qualify as martrydom, and I would hesitate to describe Cassie Bernall as a martyr as well. The real question there is whether she would have been shot if she had said she didn't believe in God.
Martyrs can even be found in today's United States, particularly in school massacres. Cassie Bernall (died in Columbine High School massacre 1999) is believed to be a martyr by most Christians. After she had been asked by Eric Harris if she believed in God, she was fatally shot. A book written by Bernall's mother, Misty Bernall, called She Said Yes: The Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall which discusses Cassie's teenage life and spirituality. Marian Fisher, one of the girls who died in the 2006 Amish schoolhouse massacre asked the killer to shoot her first in an apparent bid to save the younger girls who were being held as hostages together with her. Fisher's 11-year-old sister, Barbie, appealed to Roberts to shoot her next. In the Red Lake High School massacre, a student named Chase Lussier died saving one of his friend's lives.
I've removed all but the section on Bernall. Richard001 21:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the section on Bernall too now. See the Columbine High School massacre article for the details - it seems unlikely she even said this, and the two shooters were on a killing rampage - they weren't after any particular group. Richard001 02:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scope of article

message: Why was this POV and unverifiable term used and added into this article? Also why was the statement added that after the legalization of Christianity there where no more martyrs?
This is not history and is completely inaccurate and wrong.
LoveMonkey 07:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Constantinian shift]]

message: What does the article, Persecution of Muslims, have to do with this article. In fact, the word "martyr" doesn't appear in the article "Persecution of Muslims." Therefore, I am deleting the "See also: Persecution of Muslims" link that's below the chapter title, "Islam." However, "Martyrdom" does have to do with the article, Persecution of Christians. Therefore, I am not deleting the link, "See also: Persecution of Christians" that appears below the chapter title, "Christianity." ask123 (talk) 01:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persecution of Muslims link 

message: I've made some changes to this article. Defining something primarily by its etymology, rather than by its actual meaning, is a very novel approach. It's not followed elsewhere on Wikipedia. We don't introduce hysteria as a "complaint of the womb" and mention in passing that a later definition exists, do we? And we certainly wouldn't want to do that with sycophant or platypus or stegosaurus. Secondly the definition is wrong. Martyrs don't have to further their beliefs to be martyrs, but they usually have to refuse to renounce them: the idea is that just as a "witness" under torture might refuse to renounce his master even on the point of death, so a Christian martyr is one who refuses to renounce his faith even when faced with death. So the term is still primarily religious though other analagous uses are possible. Additionally, the information seems to contradict itself, or else it is chronologically confusing: it says that "martyr" acquired a religious meaning but that it was then borrowed by English where its meaning was extended to acquire religious connotations. Lastly, the meaning is primarily religious. There are indeed Tolpuddle Martyrs and Metric Martyrs but these are named by analogy with the religious meaning because they are said in the loosest sense to have died for their beliefs. They are not remnants of some hypothetical earlier English meaning. --86.25.238.1 (talk) 01:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to article 

message: How come there is no section titled 'science', demonstrating all the exampled of scientific martyrdom throughout history, of which there is much?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.130.32 (talk) 05:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Science 

message: In the meaning sections there is no mention of the interpretation that the martyr has offered themself as a witness to God of the ordeal, i.e. the martyrdom. Surely there must exist attestations for this interpretation. __meco (talk) 19:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Witness to God 

message: "A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, 
is somebody who suffers persecution and death, a country 
or an organization, usually religious, political or rights."
This statement seems written in a very messy form, missing some words, and it has unclear meaning....  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.26.7 (talk) 17:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just amended the opening to its earlier version. I don't think this  is an improvement. As mentioned above, the term in English originally means someone who dies for refusing to renounce his Christian beliefs. The stuff about dying for a country or organisation is completely bizarre. Does anyone really believe that a soldier who dies in a battle is more likely to be called a matyr than an early Christian saint? --131.111.128.77 (talk) 15:26, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introductory statement appears inconsistent 

message: I'm removing the picture of St. Sebastian because it is NOT a representation of his martyrdom. St. Stehen survived the many arrows. He was actually stoned to death.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.39.190 (talk) 00:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Partially correct, Saint Stephen was stoned to death. However the image is Saint Sebastian and he was clubbed to death. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 02:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I always get the names mixed up... It doesn't change the fact that Sebastian survived the arrows to live another day. Which is why he is patron saint of people with the plague (there's a reasonable explanation for it, involving skin lesions)70.73.39.190 (talk) 18:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

text: What's that got to do with removing the image? He was still a martyr. The image said that he was clubbed. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It was billed as a picture of martyrdom, even if it isn't, it gives the erroneous impression that it is a picture of his martyrdom, regardless of what the caption reads. There are more appropriate representations of martyrdom available. 70.73.39.190 (talk) 00:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  St. Stephen Photo Not Of Martyrdom 

message: Ref.:  Martyr#Islam 
All three links to the Quran were broken.  I found the passages on other pages at the site, but when I read the passages, nothing about a martyr was mentioned in the first two, so I commented them out until an expert can look at it.  The third link to the Quran does go to a passage that mentions a "Martyr", so I fixed that link. 
– PIE ( CLIMAX )  20:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam section 

message: Is there any particular reason why the Lollards - of all the Christian groups to have faced martyrdom - have their own section of this article? Particularly given the fact these paragraphs don't appear to have anything specific to say about martyrdom? It just seems odd that - while Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and Copts and goodness knows how many other denominations are lumped together into a general overview - this short-lived medieval English sect gets such emphasis; it's not even as if they were the only group to be suppressed in the middle ages. 86.29.77.142 (talk) 08:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it is undue weight and I am taking it out. The link to Martyrdom is incidental. --BozMo talk 15:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lollards 

message: This section contains 9 Sikh martyrs, but only 3 Christians, 1 Muslim, 1 secular, and 10 Jewish (although they are listed as one bullet point) martyrs.  I suggest that, in order to restore balance to this section, we remove those Sikhs who are less historically important and/or add other famous martyrs, such as Jan Hus and Saints Stephen, Paul, Peter, Joan of Arc, and Thomas Beckett, and perhaps reference the Jewish martyrs of the Holocaust.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShiftlessOtaku (talk • contribs) 03:15, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Globalize "List of Famous Martyrs" Section 

message: This article has major problems already noted, but I am wondering if label of 'martyr' can ever literally be applied to somebody alive and with all faculties.  It seems there are various terms and phrases that would substitute for what, I think, is a mistaken or merely metaphorical use of the word. [P.S. On reading Bandit Queen, if one did not read particularly carefully, noticing that Phoolan Devi is dead and considered to have been a martyr by the article here (during a certain period of her life, prior to joining parliament(!)) could easily lead one to the wrong conclusion.]204.108.237.194 (talk) 19:45, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suffering only? 

message: This article is missing information on the New Martyrs, who are important to Christian history. Could an expert in this area please add this? -Brennan M. Baker  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmbaker88 (talk • contribs) 07:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Martyrs 

message: I'm going to work on this page for a school project.  From research that I have conducted, it is apparent that Socrates could be considered a martyr.  As such, I'm going to add a section about Socrates, as well as edit and expand the page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omiller1495 (talk • contribs) 23:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Socrates 

message: I am splitting off the Political martyrs section to a separate article. The word is in common use as a political term, and at the moment this usage is buried in a long article otherwise devoted to religious martyrs.  Scolaire (talk) 15:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting off political martyrs 

message: We should think about merging this with Revolutionary Martyr- that article is really short and doesn't convey much. Laudiacay (talk) 17:08, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: There is a serious problem with this article. While it is great with lengthy, in depth paragraphs about what a martyr is, it is equally important to describe who can define who is a martyr or not. Who has the authority to do that? Can anyone be proclaimed to be a martyr? By anyone? If you say halleluja, Inshallah or pray to Shiva before you kill yourself or dies in some way, will you become a martyr? Certainly not. There are rules in every religion and only certain authorities can proclaim someone to have become a martyr. So we need to inform about this. 
It is urgent to provide this information, for martydom is becoming something of a global trend these days. The problem is however, that only very few of those said or claimed to be martyrs really are. RhinoMind (talk) 20:58, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who has authority to proclaim that someone is a martyr? 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: , , please attempt dispute resolution here on the talk page. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 12:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute 

message: I added a section on the concept of martyrdom in the Middle East. Some IP user deleted it and said it was unneeded propaganda. I reverted it because he gave no evidence as to why this was propaganda. I gave a fully-cited explanation of the concept of martyrdom in the Middle East — in wiki voice because of citations for every point. If there's a hole in the content, then I'm up for discussion.  Hovsepig (talk) 08:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle eastern meaning of martyr 

message: In the section about Palestine, it is written that terrorists are called martyrs. The sentence is followed by "For example Shireen..." It sounds like the article is calling her a terrorist, this should be rephrased! "while committing terrorist acts" could be dropped, as the sentence's continuation, stating any Palestinian killed by Israel is called a martyr, so the use of the phrase isnt actually related to terrorism. 89.135.93.152 (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shireen Abu Akleh implied to be a terrorist