Wikipedia talk:WikiProject NASCAR/Archive 2

message: *(reposted since big talkpage got archived)  Stock Car Racing magazine, from 1964 through the time Dick Berggren's staff left the new owner in the Nineties, was the most authoritative source from which we can establish notability by WP's standards.  There isn't an article index to the old issues on SCR's website, so we need someone to find the hardcopies.  (My father's got auctioned off when he died.)  I remember reading specific articles about half the people on the Requested Articles list and a lot of the people on the Stubs Needing Expansion list.  Can someone help us, please?  Barno 19:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone please dig out ''SCR'' 

message: Per slowpokeiv's comments above, we should develop standards for drivers and others who achieved notability in NASCAR outside of the three national touring series now considered major.  We also need a different template than the active/retired/deceased infoboxes, which focus stats only on the Cup level.  For inclusion criteria, I'd suggest:
*Any driver with more than one championship in a regional division, or with championships in more than one regional division, or with more than one Weekly Racing Series national championship
*(maybe) any driver with one championship in a regional division
*(maybe) any driver who has won the Weekly Racing Series national championship
*Any driver with more than one championship in the Modified or Late Model Sportsman divisions when they were as national as NASCAR reached, and there was no higher division except Grand National
*(maybe) any driver with one championship in old national Mod/LMS (but that's dozens of guys, some of whose careers aren't well-documented)
*Any car owner with five or more (lifetime) championships in regional divisions, or in the old national Modified or LMS divisions
*Are there regional crew chiefs (who aren't also team owners) who might merit WP inclusion?  Do we want some standard such as five championships, as above?  How about anybody from pre-Tour days such as Billy Nacewicz?  Same deal?  The top few owners and a couple other crewchiefs might have gotten coverage in racing trade papers back in those days, but none in most newspapers.  Arguing notability is greyer for non-drivers.
*Are there any officials who are notable for regional series or national Mod/LMS?  Morris Metcalfe comes to mind as someone who made NASCAR regional scoring and Modified national-championship-race scoring consistent for decades, but any media coverage he's gotten outside weekly trade papers is for his Cup scoring work.  
:Barno 23:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regional NASCAR Series (and weekly) 

message: I looked at the Google Maps link on the Ontario Motor Speedway page and I was zooming in further to have a look around:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ontario,+CA&t=h&hl=en&ll=34.074524,-117.572207&spn=0.005936,0.008787&t=h
Can someone confirm if the partially obscured arcing feature shown about 800' southeast of the intersection of North Haven Ave. and 4th St. is one of the old turns?  If so, someone might want to point it out in the OMS page.
This is not racing-related, but I'd appreciate it if someone could point out where the California Jam stage was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.33.4 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 20 January 2006
:That arc is indeed the former location of Turn 2 at OMS. Take a look at this 2004 sattelite image and compare it to this 1981 USGS map. I would assume that the California Jam stage was located near the start/finish line in the center of the front straightaway. --TantalumTelluride 21:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible OMS Remnant? 

message: Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project 

message: I have removed the Crew Chief and Associate Sponsor info from the Owner Infobox.  This information was making the boxes too hard to read and too long on the larger teams' pages (ie Roush).  The inforbo should be a quick snapshot of primary information someone can quickly scan over and get the "essential" information quickly. Wikipedianinthehouse 20:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Owner Infobox

message: Need some more memorable moments from the track. I applied the infobox from Daytona, but it doesn't fit all that well. Should an infobox be made up for closed tracks? Please peer review the article and infobox. Royalbroil 20:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[North Wilkesboro Speedway]]

message: I've been adding infoboxes to some drivers past and present. The infobox template doesn't fit well for someone like Ted Musgrave. Any suggestions? Royalbroil 14:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We were trying to find a way to fix that in a previous discussion, but it stalled. For the time being, I'll take the code for the regular template and do some substing to make it fit. You can find the example on Ed Berrier. --D-Day  Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 15:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that any driver that had significant Cup experience at any point in the past should have the current cup driver template. How about any former Cup driver that is a current (at least half-time) driver in busch or truck should get a template for BOTH their Cup and their current series, with the current series listed on top.Royalbroil 13:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: That sounds good to me. I'll work on it today, and if an issue comes up, we can probably merge the templates. --D-Day  Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody!Click to view my evil userboxes 13:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox issue with former Cup drivers now in CTS or BGN

message: I just nominated the very poor Dale Earnhardt article for Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive. Thanks --Jaranda wat's sup 03:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dale Earnhardt 

message: I was just thinking that maybe we should create an infobox that features information about each separate car team that could be put on each page. It would summarize all the major info about the team, such as:
*Photo
*Driver
*Crew Chief
*Sponsors
*Make/Model
*Years
This could be a good way to standardize all the photos for race teams as well, as they'd all be included in this infobox. In addition, it'd greatly increase the speed of getting just the basic current statistics of each team. We could also eliminate some of this info from the main team infobox then, too, such as sponsor info. Comments? Ideas? Airline 19:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal for a Car infobox

message: Are jayski.com images fair to use here? I looked at his site , and it appears to me that they ARE NOT. I noticed the image for Jamie McMurray is from jayski. What do you think? Royalbroil 17:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tagged them with  with very few problems. He said that anybody can use them as long as he gets credit. My rules for Jaysski images are this:1) Only use the ones that he or one of the fans tooks, and 2) Don't use the ones that have his website's name all over them. They look ugly. --D-Day  My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 20:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jayski images

message: Front Row Motorsports just launched their website today. And their introductory paragragh came from our article about them! Even better, that article is in their links section. And I was the one wrote that article! :-p Heck with featured article, I'm gaining the attention of PR directors!!! ;-) --D-Day  My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 20:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nah nah nah nah... 

message: I finished the article. I will self-nom it for Did You Know. Please do a technical review of the article, and correct any errors you see. There sure is a lot of history there. I wasn't aware of the 15 land speed records set there before I wrote the article. Royalbroil 05:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Daytona Beach Road Course

message: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1990 Daytona 500 for discussion. I moved whatever was salvagable from the article into a new section under Daytona 500 called Memorable Daytona 500s. Its the only Daytona 500 article about a single article as far as I know. Please vote as you see fit. Royalbroil 04:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I nominated the 1990 Daytona 500 article on articles for deletion

message: I had to re-edit the List of NASCAR Races because some clown decided to put up postponements on them.  Any postponements should be listed in the 2006 in NASCAR section.  Thanks for reading. NoseNuggets 12:02 US EDT Mar 28 2006.
:Or better yet, not listed at all! Recury 15:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PLEASE LEAVE THE LIST OF RACES ON NASCAR SCHEDULES ALONE!

message: NASCAR is an visual sport. Wikipedia users HAVE to be able to see pictures of the cars and drivers to know who the article is written about. Wikipedia images are currently under a major overhaul, and a significant number of images in WikiProject NASCAR have been deleted. I have spent a significant number of hours trying to find image responsitories that are able to be used and to understand the new policies. Most new images that get uploaded to the project end up getting deleted quickly. This is a waste of time for 1) the image uploader, 2) the people who reviewing the images, and 3) the people who are deleting the images. This is VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE! We all need to understand that unfairly used images open up Wikipedia to potential lawsuits. I ask Wiki Image experts to create a list of available resources and methods that is specific to this project for obtaining images that will NOT be deleted for unfair uses.
The image upload screen appears to be woefully out of date and needs a major review. Many of the image tags are obsolete or outdated. 
List of image resources that shouldn't get deleted:
*1) Images that a wikipedia contributor took themself provided there is a proper summary and image copyright tag (preferred tags  , , , or ) on the image description page (See :Image:Old log skidder.jpg as an example of adequate summary and licensing).
*2) Florida Photographic Collection Images  for drivers from the 1960s and earlier. Tag: .
*3) Images from another copyright holder subject to the provisions of item 1 (permission to use only on Wikipedia or educational/non-commercial is not acceptable) and written documentation in English from the copyright holder granting the license. The permssion documentation should placed on the image's discussion page. There should be a note on the image description page referring to the documentation (See :Image:Zebra finch.jpg for an example). Contact information for the copyright holder must be included so permission can be verified if necessary.
*4) Public domain websites such as most of the military websites (Examples: U.S. Army Racing,U.S. Marines, U.S. Navy, U.S. Coast Guard, and U.S. Air Force). Read the Privacy and Security page to verify the site is public domain (and provide a link to it) and provide the proper summary and image copyright tag on the image description page (See :Image:Vehicle simulator.jpg for example). To find these image, enter <subject> .mil or <subject> .gov (example: NASCAR .mil) in a search engine.
*5) Images from photo hosting sites such as flickr can be used if the copyright holder grants a free license like those mentioned in item 1 on the webpage the image is taken from. A link to the webpage must be provided on the image description page. If the image says "All Rights Reserved," the image is not acceptable on Wikipedia, probably not even as fair use.
*6) Copyrighted websites, publications, etc. - These images can be used if they come from the proper source, are tagged with a proper fair use tag and used in an article for which the image would qualify as fair use.
**a) Any image that is taken from another copyright holder and tagged with any "free" use license will be deleted unless it meets the terms of item 3. Virtually any creative work from most countries is copyrighted by default.
**b) Claiming fair use on an image without providing the source of the copyright holder will most certainly be challenged and the image will probably deleted.
**c) Reliable sources for images are the racing companies (Penske Racing), the sponsors (Ford Motor Racing) and the drivers and agencies that represents them. These images can be tagged . Images from sites like Race 2 Win will probably not stand as the pedigree of the image is uncertain.
**d) These images have to be used in a fair use manner. The image use should be limited to one article concerning the subject of the image. Fair use images of cars should not be in articles about drivers and vice-versa. If the image cannot qualify as promotional, I recommend the  tag. With all fair use images, a fair use rationale should be provided based on the four factors found at Fair_use#Fair_use_under_United_States_law. Not all factors have to be covered, but the more, the stronger the fair use defense.
List of images that will get deleted:
*1) Images with no source, no license or tagged only for use on Wikipedia or for non-commercial use.
*2) Images that are tagged with no summary documentation to support the copyright tag.
*3) Images from sources that offer images for sale such as Getty Images
*4) News images from the Associated Press and other wire services. The only exception might be an image of unique   historical value that can be argued is in the public interest to be used and used in an article to which the image adds significant value.
*5) Images that are watermarked or have copyright info embedded on them.
*6) High resolution fair use images. Try to keep image size under 100K.
Add any images you upload and the articles they are linked to your watchlist and defend the images if they are nominated for deletion.
:Most of the images came from a website whose images were copyrighted but we were allowed to use as long as credit was given. Evidently, that has now gone obsoltete. --D-Day  My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 23:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Major WikiProject NASCAR image issues

message: I have nominated the :Category:ARCA racers be renamed :Category:ARCA drivers in order to be consistent with :Category:NASCAR drivers, :Category:World of Outlaws drivers, :Category:American Speed Association drivers, etc. Let any comments you have here. Royalbroil 03:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now some of the voters want to spell out the ARCA because its an abbreviation. There's even talk of spelling out the NASCAR drivers category to "National Association of Stock Car Automobile Racers drivers". How come every time I try to do some fine tuning at "Articles for Deletion" and "Categories for Deletion" that it has to blow up in my face? My Wikistress goes from "Just Fine" to "STRESSED"! I'd like to see all of the WikiProject NASCAR people go there and vote for sanity. You'll be typing in such a long name for the categories if you don't. Royalbroil 00:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

text: LOL calm down. I'll go and vote, and everything will be alright. We had some confusion with the deletion of the Bobby Hamilton article before. Trust me, there are other things worth stressing about. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 14:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ARCA racers category

message: I spent a lot of today cleaning up the NASCAR category and just wanted to get some opinions on some other ideas I had:
*On the project page here it said next to :Category:NASCAR tracks "(Note: US NASCAR tracks are also crosslisted in :Category:U.S. car race tracks)". I'm guessing that is the category that got moved to :Category:Motor racing venues in the United States, right? If so, is there a reason why are they crosslisted? NASCAR tracks is a subcategory of Motor racing venues in the US.
*Does anyone have a problem with me trying to move :Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year to :Category:NASCAR Rookies of the Year? Or maybe :Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year award winners or something to that effect?
*The category :Category:NASCAR series only has 3 articles in it (one for each of the top 3 series). I think we could either 1) Write articles for all of those NASCAR regional series and put those in the category as well (I don't remember exactly how many there are but I think we'd end up with about 10 total articles, which isn't too bad I guess) or 2) Just delete that category and put the three series articles into :Category:NASCAR where they would fit rather nicely. Recury 23:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aye to proposals two and three. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 00:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I was wondering about #1 too - no idea. #2-I will vote to support either new name, in either case it should be named plural. I prefer the second category name - very descriptive. Please let use know here if you do the nomination so we can vote. #3 I think the category should stay. I was thinking long-term that the regional series would and should be set up. I planned on eventually creating the articles if someone else didn't beat me to it. I have already had a discussion with User:Barno about setting up an article for the Modifieds, but neither of us has developed it yet. I would vote against removing the category on CFD. Royalbroil 14:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I am liking :Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year award winners more now too. I'll probably change it sometime this week if no one has another other objections/suggestions. Someone (I forget who, but thanks!) created an article for the Busch North/Busch East series the other day so I'll leave :Category:NASCAR series as is. I'll probably un-crosslist #1 (again, if no one has any objections) later this week. Recury 20:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I've removed :Category:NASCAR tracks from :Category:Motor racing venues in the United States because there are a couple NASCAR tracks (Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, Suzuka) that aren't in the US. I guess that can be the reason why we crosslist them. Recury 15:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year → :Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year award winners, let your opinion be known here! Recury 15:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Categorization

message: I don't know if any of you are really going to care, but I wanted to let you know that in addition to writing many of our project's article, I have been writing some of our NASCAR articles at Wikipedia France. The articles are very short, but I feel that as part of Wikiproject NASCAR, this does include spreading our knowledge. Just a heads up. User:DaNASCAT 23:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NASCAR Français 

message: The image used apparently wasn't free use (see Template:WikiProject NASCAR and Template:User WP NASCAR). A taxicab was swapped in, but that didn't work at all for me. Any other suggestions for what image to use? Picking a certain driver probably would be too controversial, so I picked the image on the NASCAR page that has lots of drivers. Royalbroil 03:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, a taxi? The one you have in there now works fine, but we had the NASCAR logo in there before and that's probably what it should be. Why did we have to change that? Aren't corporate logos fair game? Recury 20:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The person who changed the logo to the taxi said in their comments that the image needs to be free use. I'd rather see the NASCAR logo too. I don't like how this current image scales on the project member infobox for user pages. Royalbroil 13:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's my understanding that the NASCAR logo would be ineligible to use on the template. While we use it on other parts of Wikipedia, as a "fair use" image, we can't use it on the template. There has to be someone on this WikiProject that has been to a NASCAR race, has taken a picture and is willing to have it be out there as "free". Sue Anne 22:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image on project template

message: I couldn't help but notice that some other of the Wikiprojects and orginizations have set up newsletters. Should we add one here? --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 22:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we're going to do one that is posted here on the talk page, I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't support one which spammed the talk pages of all the project participants. Sue Anne 23:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Most projects that do have a newsletter have a "Do Not Spam" list for those who do not wish to receive the newsletter on their talk page. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 23:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Sue Anne. The current methods of communication have been effective as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't mind see one here though. Maybe I don't see the whole picture. What might included in the newsletter? Royalbroil 04:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That I'm still trying to figure out. Perhaps, a listing of articles under construction, or articles that have been listed for cleanup/create for a while and haven't seen much action. Any ideas would be appreciated. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 14:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newsletter 

message: *I've written (with help from User:Royalbroil) an article for the Whelen Modified Tour.  It still needs some facts in the tables of champs and Rookie of the Year winners; it could use year-by-year descriptions of the championship chase; and it needs citations of reliable sources for most of the historical and descriptive parts.  It should also get a couple of historical photos of early Modifieds, of 1970ish coupes and coaches, and of 1980ish Pintos and Vegas.  (Eventually I hope to split a 1947-84 NASCAR Modifieds article off from this one.)  We need someone with more information to write an article about the Whelen Southern Modified Tour.  Barno 22:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modified Tour article posted; need one for Southern Modified Tour 

message: I found this article that has "press release" on top. Do the images on there fall under the "press kit" image tag, thereby making them fair use? --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 22:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll ask User:Nv8200p. I have another question for him. He seems have a clear understanding of the image policies. Royalbroil 00:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe these images would be fair use using the "press kit" image tag if the articles you  use the images in must are relevant, such as an article about the event that the pictures were taken at or about the person pictured, preferably in a section about the person's involvement with the event. Putting these images in a general article about NASCAR or trucks or shock absorbers etc. would not be fair use -Nv8200p talk 21:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Question