Talk:Banausos/Archive 1

message: This will also be growing.  For my reference and bibliography, I think I quote from Vlastos but a long time ago, I photocopied the page and didn't write the title down or which volume but it is page 214 and 215 in the chapter Aristotle's conception of the state. Need help in this regard because I work at a small library and don't have too many works to research from. WHEELER 16:48, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: β is pronounced like the English 'v' only in modern Greek. In classical Greek, it represents the same sound as the English 'b'. Likewise υ, in classical Greek writing, is transliterated as 'u', never (as far as I know) 'v'. The current transliteration is simply incorrect. See the Perseus Greek lexicon for confirmation. —Charles P. (Mirv) 00:34, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As a clssical term, it should certainly start with a B in English, and have a dipthong in the middle.  Modern Greek has lost a lot of the phoneme distinctions which existed in ancient Greek, but that should not mean that the English representations need to lose those distinctions. --Henrygb 10:36, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

message: Cultural history is hard to write, and beyond the competence of most of us— it appears. This concept is the brake that held back Hellenistic science, as a job fit only for an artisan. I'm not convinced its current title makes the ideas available to the Wikipedia reader, but the sight of a team getting together to ban it is very odd! What is the better phrase for "Cultural history: Hellenic disdain for the lower classes"?  This concept is painfully missing from the stub Perioeci, for one. --Wetman 20:37, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This argument would be more persuasive if Sir Richard Livingstone had been more of a philologist and less of an educationist - and if WHEELER referred to Sir Richard properly. Septentrionalis 21:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I believe this extract is an abuse even of the polemical use of 'banausikos'. It certainly has only the remotest connection to classical usage, which refers, even polmeically, to (sweaty) labor. Septentrionalis 21:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: As Nixon said, "Let me make this perfectly clear"---This is not about the "artisan class" it is about the ancient Greek warrior clan using a word to seperate their "*culture*" from the commercial culture.  First, It is a word that describes the "prejudice" of the warrior class for the "values" of the commercial class.  Moreover, it was a psycological device to train their people to turn away from the commercial fields of endeavor.  To label this as the "Artisan class" is to destroy the fundamental meaning that this article is trying to portray.WHEELER 15:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no understanding Classical Greek republicanism without understanding this term!  This term is very very very important to Classical Greek republicanism, i.e.  Wikinfo:Classical republicanism which was removed from Wikipedia. Which SimonP gets all wrong in Classical republicanism.WHEELER 15:25, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this is a hard concept to grasp.  Not only am I a Doric Greek, but I have been trained as a soldier all my life and did six years in the USMC.  This is my ethos.  Most of you have been brought up in democracy, liberalism, modernism which colors and influences your thought.  I have done nothing but read about the Greeks all my life.  I have read Werner Jaeger, Kitto, Hamilton, Muller and others.  I know ancient Greek culture, though I am not a Greek linguist whatsoever, but I do know Ancient Greek culture and because I have the same lifestyle and was trained as they were, I know from whence they speak.  Please don't transport modern ideas and prejudices back into the classical world.WHEELER 16:02, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the introductory paragraph to dispel confusion.  Please REREAD the article.WHEELER 17:11, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Hesychius defines 'banausos' as "every tekhne [performed] by fire" . See Liddell and Scott s.v., which may be found in Perseus.  Distinguishing them seems more than usually silly, even for the unfortunately ideological Hellenism of the 1920's.  Septentrionalis 21:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural history: Hellenic disdain for the lower classes

message: In the spirit of Wikipedia:WikiLove, I'm ignoring some of the provocative things that have been said, and will try for a constructive, positive, egoless resolution, taking advantage of everyone's contributions.
The core of this article as it currently stands seems to be the political role of the artisan class in ancient greece (the ).  That is an encyclopedic subject, there is accepted non-original research on the topic (which it would be nice to cite at some point), and in fact it's not a bad name for it.
That seems like an awfully specialized subject, though, and I'd hope that we could come up with a more general article on the Artisan Class in Ancient Greece, with more content on its economic role, its relations with other parts of the population (citizens, metics, slaves, etc.), well-known members (Phidias?, Socrates?), patron gods/demigods (Daedalus?), and all that.
As for the name of the article: In the academic literature on this class, it is referred to either using the English term 'artisan', or with the Greek name in Greek letters, or the Greek name transliterated as 'banausoi' (the plural of 'banausos').  Liddell & Scott (the standard dictionary of Ancient Greek) translates it as 'artisan' (noun); as an adjective, it started out as the adjective 'of the class of handicraftsmen or artisans' and later developed into 'vulgar' etc. (in Modern Greek, it means something like 'uncouth', but that is not really relevant here).  Of course, it doesn't have precisely the same denotation or connotations as the English word 'artisan', but there doesn't seem to be any danger of confusion by using that term.  The printed index of the 1911 Britannica doesn't use the term banausos/banausic, and, to the extent one can trust the scanned version at 1911encyclopedia.org, they don't appear in its text, either (even though it does use the term 'metic').  Hence the recommendation to use the term 'artisan class'.  --Macrakis 23:06, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As Nixon said, "Let me make this perfectly clear"---This is not about the "artisan class" it is about the ancient Greek warrior clan using a word to seperate their "*culture*" from the commercial culture.  First, It is a word that describes the "prejudice" of the warrior class for the "values" of the commercial class.  Moreover, it was a psycological device to train their people to turn away from the commercial fields of endeavor.  To label this as the "Artisan class" is to destroy the fundamental meaning that this article is trying to portray.WHEELER 15:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no understanding Classical Greek republicanism without understanding this term!  This term is very very very important to Classical Greek republicanism, i.e.  Wikinfo:Classical republicanism which was removed from Wikipedia. Which SimonP gets all wrong in Classical republicanism.WHEELER 15:25, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this is a hard concept to grasp.  Not only am I a Doric Greek, but I have been trained as a soldier all my life and did six years in the USMC.  This is my ethos.  Most of you have been brought up in democracy, liberalism, modernism which colors and influences your thought.  I have done nothing but read about the Greeks all my life.  I have read Werner Jaeger, Kitto, Hamilton, Muller and others.  I know ancient Greek culture, though I am not a Greek linguist whatsoever, but I do know Ancient Greek culture and because I have the same lifestyle and was trained as they were, I know from whence they speak.  Please don't transport modern ideas and prejudices back into the classical world.WHEELER 16:02, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the introductory paragraph to dispel confusion.  Please REREAD the article.WHEELER 17:11, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Hesychius defines 'banausos' as "every tekhne [performed] by fire" . See Liddell and Scott s.v., which may be found in Perseus.  Distinguishing them seems more than usually silly, even for the unfortunately ideological Hellenism of the 1920's.  Septentrionalis 21:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed resolution: Rename to ''Artisan Class in Ancient Greece''

message: This page was voted on for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Vanavsos. The final result was No consensus, so keep. --Deathphoenix 01:33, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  VfD result 

message: *I vote for moving to Banausic . And of course transliterate β with b. dab (ᛏ) 19:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: move

message: "Its strict English connotation is "mechanical" (in the sense that that term is used in Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream)" that's just horrible. I had to look it up. 
 PUCK
    My mistress with a monster is in love.
    Near to her close and consecrated bower,
    While she was in her dull and sleeping hour,
    A crew of patches, rude mechanicals,
    That work for bread upon Athenian stalls,
    Were met together to rehearse a play
    Intended for great Theseus' nuptial day.
this is explaining obscurus per obscurium. At least pick an English word that is of even spurious currency, such as cad. Shakespeare's mechanicals seems to actually translate Athenian banausos, and that would be interesting to note, but don't expect people to know their Midsummernight's Dream by heart! The "original meaning" of banausos is "furnace heater". Webster of course makes note of Shakespeare's use,
 A mechanic. [Obs.] --Shak.
but I doubt this usage is attested anywhere outside this very quote (it was "obsolete" in 1913، in any case!), and my guess is that Shak. coined it as he was looking for a translation for banausos. dab (ᛏ) 19:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: what quote? the paragraph in question pretends to explain the term, not to quote eminent classicists. I do "have the knowledge" now, thank you, Shakespeare's plays are accessible easily enough. But it cannot be our aim to send people rummaging through Shakespeare and eminent classicists for something we could tell them in one sentence, right here. We could attribute the "mechanical" part to Livingstone, though, if you tell us what part exactly is a verbatim quote (no, I will not dig it up myself) dab (ᛏ) 09:10, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "mechanicals"

message: *Banausos and its cognates do not mean "peasant" - which in any case contradicts paragraph 4 of the present (20 April 2005) text.  Peasants are thetes, since Homer.
*"in the Greek republics, established a "psychological distance" between the citizens and the traders." Did Solon establish a republican constitution in Athens? If so, this sentence is false.
*Banausos is not attested in Dorian. 
*Warrior class is wrong through vagueness; try hoplite class. The epic heroes called their smiths demiourgoi.
*Banausos is used precisely by the rising commercial/hoplite classes; it is not found in Theognis, for example.
*Plato was a descendant of Codrus. This is a novel use of "Doric". 
*Septentrionalis 21:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing problems