Talk:Druskininkai

message: to Halibutt mainly
Why do you use Polish name of the city? It is situated in nowadays Lithuania, and ethnically it is Belarusian, so it should be logical to choose between Lithuanian and Belarusian names, I think. --Monkbel 21:07, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  name of city 

message: What exactly castle is meant in the sentence "A small castle was built in the area as a part of the defence system against the Teutonic Order. The castle was conquered by Teutonic Knights and destroyed in 1308 and the area was soon depopulated."
I know two possible places near Druskininkai - Liškiava (Liszków in Polish; its a small city 8 km from Druskininkai, featuring a mound of a castle, church and ex. jacobin monastery) and Merkinė (Merecz). So which one of them, or maybe smth. else? --UmR 06:11:07, 2005-08-29 (UTC)
:I don't know about the castle in Druskininkai, but the stone castle in Liškiava supposedly was build by Vytautas in the end of 14th century. Apparently there was a wooden Slavic castle on the mound in 11th century. The mound itself was inhabitated since the 3rd century B.C. Liszkiava is on the other side of Neman and few kolimetres north of Druskininkai. As for Merkine, it's even further north, there indeed was castle that was taken by Teuronic Knights but not in 1308 but in 1393 (or 1403 according to other sources) so it woudn't be that one, either. I don't think there was any castle in Druskininkai, as the area there is quite flat. Halibutt, could you check your sources, where did it come from ? --Lysy (talk) 07:18, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Castle

message: Some famous Lithuanians vacationed in Zakopane, not a enough of a reason to add the Lithuanian name to it. Dr. Dan 14:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway, the town belonged to Poland before ww2. --Lysytalk 09:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Polish Name

message: As far as I can see the figure about tourists are wrong!
According to the statistic witch is refernd to, the is NOTHING like 1233,722 tourist from anywhere in Druskininkai, and btw, the statistics don't count the town, but the county. So I think, the number should be mooved to the county, and then even be corrected!
If I add all figures from the page 9 which is referd to I only reach to 795,586, and I am sure then I even count someone twice!--PerV (talk) 20:09, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, just mark the numbers in the main pace, which you think are wrong, it will be more easily to spot and correct them. M.K. (talk) 20:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you want me to mark it? Im not sure how you want it!--PerV (talk) 21:09, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of tourists in 2007 

message: Kazimier, please correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe Druskininkiai was given to the B.S.S.R. by the "Great Leader" for a month, i.e., September-October 1939. He then decided to cede it to the Republic of Lithuania some eight months prior to the annexation of Lithuania in August 1940. If this is the case I think this edit  and your edit summary is rather baseless. I'll wait for a few days for your reply before deleting it. Thanks. Dr. Dan (talk) 22:47, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It'a a well known fact, that Druskieniki (present Druskininkiai) was about 1 year (till autum 1940) an official part of Belarus (BSSR)  . This is a formal indication, why belarusian name must attend at the article near russian and polish. Moreover, "Great Leader" didn't give the ethnic belarusian Druskieniki (for example, according to Yefim Karskiy and Mitrofan Dovnar-Zapol'skiy) to Belarus, but take it away to Lietuva (LSSR). --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 00:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Kazimier, thanks for your input. As for "It's a well known fact", you know that's a difficult one. Not about the presentation of your "map" from 1903 or the other maps (the ones neglecting the toponym "Вільня", and showing "Вильнюс" as the capital of the L.S.S.R., after the annexation of Lithuania in 1940, not in 1939). Nor for bringing Yefim Karskiy and Mitrofan Dovnar-Zapol'skiy, two prominent Soviet scholars (working under the auspices of the "Great Leader") who were both dead by the time period we're discussing. In any case the town's name was never "Галіткенікі". Furthermore, Вільня is where it is and is called Vilnius in the English speaking world and on English Wikipedia. Same goes for Druskininkai. You might be surprised to know that like you, I definitely oppose the concept of Lithuanian nationalistic POV pushing and agree that Wikipedia is not a place for Lithuanian chauvinism and nationalist historical myths to be perpetuated. I also believe, however, that it is neither the place for such behavior to be substituted with Belarusian nationalistic chauvinism or mythological fantasies either. Back to the subject. The "Great Leader" invited the Lithuanians to take control of Vilnius in October 1939 and if you say that the B.S.S.R. was in control of Druskininkai until the autumn when the "Great Leader" chose to dump Belarusian "control" of that city too, it's a tempest in a teapot as far as I'm concerned. Happy editing. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:22, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you don't like soviet scholars (incidentally, Yefim Karskiy and Mitrofan Dovnar-Zapol'skiy created their maps before formation of the USSR) I can propose Jan Stankievič, which also consider this territory like ethnic belarusian. As for my opinion about chauvinism and nationalist historical myths I saw here many things, which can only be explained to them — begin from the names of lithuanian dukes Mindaugas etc., which you can't meet in any historical document, and ending complete identification historical lithuanians with modern baltic nation. I'm understanding that such mistakes is not only a problem of Wikipedia, but it's my duty to pay attention to this anywhere. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 11:56, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: To be sure, it's not that I like or dislike Soviet scholars, just that I do not believe that many were at liberty to always express themselves in a completely "honest" manner under Stalin. Somewhat also the case during the Russian Empire, but less so. Plenty of other regimes can be included when analyzing their POV as well. I doubt very much that you accept Soviet maps as the final arbiter of territory that belongs to Lithuania or to Belarus. They changed as fast as the photographs of their  airbrushed leadership after they became "persona non grata". So I wouldn't suggest the evidence with your maps to be all that convincing of an argument. Just understand that I'm not the author of the term Lithuanian or Ruthenian in the English language, just as you are not the author of the term Міндоўг. Nor can you produce any contemporaneous document using "Міндоўг" either. All that's rubbish. John maybe John, but John is also Jan, Johann, Jonas, Sean, Ivan, Juan, Jean, Hans, etc.,etc. It's really not about what you like or I like. Pretty simple. Also if you'd be so kind, I'd like your opinion on the etymology of the name Друскенікі of this supposed "Ruthenian" town. Thanks. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  During the age of Russian Empire and USSR Belarusian, in contrast to the Lithuanians (about it writes Timothy D. Snyder at The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999, Yale University Press, 2003), didn't have any state support. So all that time the researches couldn't have falsified in their favor. Regard to the names I believe, if John in several languages was John and never Jonas, it's a rubbish to call him Jonas today. The name Druskieniki may actually have Baltic (that no the same with Lithuanian) origin, but most hydronyms and many place names (for example, Nemiga — river and ancient city near Minsk) in Belarus also have Baltic origin. And it doesn't mean that the whole Belarus once was Lithuanian. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with you that our discussion shouldn't suggest the whole of Belarus was once ethnically Lithuanian. I thought it is more specifically related to Druskininkai. If I'm not mistaken you seem to believe that Druskininkai is however an ethnically and historic part of Belarus. Interestingly you say that the city's name "may have Baltic" origin, which is not the same as Lithuanian origin. Maybe it's closer to Ruthenian or Belarusian origin? Like Kalinkavichy perhaps? I just read Snyder's book last week. I enjoyed it. Personally I think he puts forth his opinion too much, and is a little too subjective at times. One can glean whatever they want out of it. It's like with Norman Davies being used as a source on Wikipedia. When he supports a particular POV, Davies is great. When he supports another POV, all of the sudden he is not so great. And his being used a source is challenged as questionable. That's how it seems to work in this neck of the woods. Regarding your other point. Yes, I'm familiar with Belarus' plight during the interbellum, and its being a pawn of the U.S.S.R, the Second Polish Republic, and Nazi Germany. But don't take that out on Lithuania. From my perspective, both Belarusian Wikipedia and many articles concerning Belarus on English Wikipedia (and its other languages) need lots of improvement. Go for it. When you put a heading like "This user thinks that Wikipedia is no place for lithuanian (lietuvos) chauvinism & nationalist historical myths" at the heading of your user page, you demonstrate a very hostile and narrow minded perspective. It's unbecoming, and shows the lack of a desire to reach a consensus and camaraderie on these pages. Which is what Wikipedia needs especially concerning this part of Europe. So in a nutshell, it seems that some Belarusians feel that Lithuania appropriated Belarusian myths and since Lithuania was successful in creating a viable State during the interbellum and subsequently, the Belarusians want the myths back and this will make them successful too. Well, I'm all for everyone living happily and peacefully in the 21st century. Even on Wikipedia. I'm sorry you missed the point regarding John. Best Dr. Dan (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're right, I believe that Druskieniki is an ethnically and historical part of Belarus and make reference to reliable sources. So I think, that this opinion has to reflected in the article. I understand that it's difficult to convince you, especially with my level of English. I agree with a fact that aggression isn't the best solution. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belarus 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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