Talk:Natalie Glebova

message: Someone added a statement about a Hong Kong TV commercial for The Beverly Hills which she shot, adding that it was "widely mocked". Whilst I can jolly well imagine the blurry and cheesy advert was mocked and ridiculed, I would dearly love to see some sources to back up this assertion. The two offending words have been removed, pending references. Ohconfucius 06:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: TV commercial

message: Is it possible to get a little more information about how long she lived in Russia and how long she lived in Canada? There are a lot of missing sections to her biography.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.131.210.82 (talk) 23:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: biography

message: I removed an adult link cleverly placed in an entry under "Endorsements", and replaced it with the appropriate non-profit link for Soi Dog Foundation. EverythingCountsInLargeAmounts (talk) 06:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Endorsements: Adult link removed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081216143354/http://amazing-race-asia.axn-asia.com:80/season3/teams/natalie-pailin/index.html to http://amazing-race-asia.axn-asia.com/season3/teams/natalie-pailin/index.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160110121022/https://www.soidog.org/Default.aspx to https://www.soidog.org/Default.aspx
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Dear Jjj1238 (talk)
In your latest edits to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Glebova you did not follow Wikipedia guidelines regarding editing BLP articles.
I undid your edits for the following reasons:
This article is a collective work of many people.
All information was verified and sourced.
You cannot edit biography of living person the way you did.
You removed about 25% of the article.
You incorrectly changed persons names without providing source for your edits.
Official name is Natalie Glebova as in all her documents.
You published it as Natalya Vladimirovna "Natalie" Glebova.
There is no need to put duplicate birth name, and why is “Natalie” in quotes? 
You published incorrect father name, see correct name here:
http://workpermit.com/news/new-miss-universe-hopes-be-role-model-immigrants-20050531
As for English, why are you using present tense in the first sentence?  
“Vladimir works… Anna is…”
Why did you remove information about the book “Healthy Happy Beautiful”?
Why did you remove Natalie’s daughter name?
Why did you delete the whole chapter “Endorsements”?
Pease do not edit until we reach consensus.   
Voyad M (talk) 20:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we go...
"This article is a collective work of many people." Every article is
"All information was verified and sourced." Incorrect
"You cannot edit biography of living person the way you did." Don't even know what this means
"You removed about 25% of the article." Because it was unsourced or not suitable for Wikipedia
"Official name is Natalie Glebova as in all her documents." Her birth name is Natalya Vladimirovna Glebova, which is what I emphasized
"You published incorrect father name, see correct name here" My mistake, it's more often than not safe to assume someone will have the same surname as their father
"As for English, why are you using present tense in the first sentence?" Are they dead? If not it is assumed they still work
"Why did you remove information about the book “Healthy Happy Beautiful”?" I'm not even sure what this is
"Why did you remove Natalie’s daughter name?" Privacy of non-notable minors per WP:Minors and persons judged incompetent
"Why did you delete the whole chapter “Endorsements”?" Because a section on endorsements does not belong on Wikipedia, look at articles like Iris Mittenaere, Demi-Leigh Nel-Peters, Pia Wurtzbach. Their endorsements may be mentioned in other sections if they're relevant, but they should not receive an entire section.
[[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 20:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

text: I feel like most of these concerns now we can move past but I still have some comments. 
1) Well then why were her parents occupations never mentioned if you knew what they were? Only their occupations in Russia but not in Canada where Glebova spent the majority of her life and is considered a national of? If there's a source to back them up then I would say add that to the article. 
2) While if her birth name is only included in the infobox I'm fine with that, but "Natalia" is an incorrect transliteration --- the proper way of writing it is "Natalya". The Russian letter "Я" is properly transliterated as "Ya" not "Ia".
3) I honestly remember nothing about the book, if I deleted it then it properly was either in a section that needed to be reworked entirely, was written in improper English and needed to be reworked entirely, or needed a source. That will be readded.
4) Looking through the endorsements section, not everything is notable. If you're the ambassador of a product that is not relevant enough for a Wikipedia article, then it is not relevant enough to be included in Glebova's article. Some instances of this include "Brand Beauty Ambassador for ICC International", "brand ambassador for Better Vision", "brand ambassador for "Caring Hare Expert"". The ones that are notable should be reworked into a "Career" section.
5) A final point is that the article sections need to be reformatted. As I've mentioned before, see an article like Pia Wurtzbach. "Year in the Life as Miss Universe" should not be its own section, but "Miss Universe" can be a subsection of a larger "Pageantry" section.
[[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 16:51, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Thank you for bringing good points to this discussion. I will come back with answers to your questions and some references as soon as I get back from work. I will also need to update information on Natalie's 2nd book which was released a few days ago and on replacing dead link for official web site.
Voyad M (talk) 17:26, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

text: I am back with answers and suggestions.
1) The article is about Natalie Glebova and I thought it was not important to provide too much information about her parents, however you will find reference to their professions at the bottom of this article http://workpermit.com/news/new-miss-universe-hopes-be-role-model-immigrants-20050531 (the same article that references father’s last name). 
I also found discussion on Wikipedia regarding last name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive_2#iw_for_Natalie_Glebova
2) Yes, it is fine to use correct transliteration for "Natalya" in the infobox.
3) The book is listed just on one line under Endorsements section with this text:
   “In February 2007, Glebova published her first book Healthy Happy Beautiful[15] and it turned out to be a major best seller.[citation needed]”
The text has a link [15] to books.google.com for a printed version in Thai language. The English pdf version is available here https://books.google.com/books?id=Kt8q8cQ00JAC  (click on front cover image to read)
This part of the text should probably be removed “and it turned out to be a major best seller.[citation needed]” as no one provided a citation.
4) Yes, some less notable products/companies could be removed, namely: "brand ambassador for Better Vision", "brand ambassador for "Caring Hare Expert" and “Party 4 Charity” which is inactive for 6 years. The others should be moved to other sections.
5) It is fine to reformat sections and remove/rename some headers leaving content of the article intact.
Extras:
If you wish to list Spouse in the infobox please publish just present spouse name, it is very personal information.
Anyway, both spouses names are published in the main article.
Voyad M (talk) 00:51, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'm happy we could come to a compromise. I'm going to revert back to my original edit as there were still several grammar/English language/formatting fixes in it, and make the appropriate adjustments that we agreed on. [[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 02:37, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

text: There is some confusion we need to resolve.   
The center piece of the article has this statement:
“This name uses Eastern Slavic naming customs; the patronymic is Vladimirovna and the family name is Glebova.”
It is very confusing for readers.
What name? Natalie Glebova name? Because Natalie Glebova name is listed just above and below that statement.
In reality, Natalie Glebova is the official name  that is printed on all documents and it does not use any patronymic name.
Searching the web I did not find references to Natalya Vladimirovna Glebova except Wikipedia and some pageant related sites with the same information copied from Wikipedia and all mention that it is a birth name.
I suggest to move that statement as explanatory note to be part of (Russian: Наталья Владимировна Глебова) or to Early life section.
The alternative would be to rephrase it like this:
"The birth name uses Eastern Slavic naming customs; the first name is Natalya, the patronymic is Vladimirovna and the family name is Glebova."
Voyad M (talk) 21:51, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

text: This is in place to educate readers that "Vladimirovna" is not her middle name, as many readers on the English Wikipedia are likely unfamiliar with Eastern Slavic naming customs. I would not support its removal, as "Vladimirovna" is not her middle name and should not be presented as such. This is why I added her full name to the lead. Would you be opposed to writing the lead instead as:
Natalie Glebova (born Natalya Vladimirovna Glebova, ; 11 November 1981) is a Russian-Canadian etc., etc., etc.
[[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 18:27, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Yes, this is fine.  Voyad M (talk) 18:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

text: We have misunderstanding.
With your latest update you did not remove the misleading statement:
“This name uses Eastern Slavic naming customs; the patronymic is Vladimirovna and the family name is Glebova.”
For readers This name means Natalie Glebova. And here comes a confusion with patronymic Vladimirovna which is actually not used in this name.
Natalya Vladimirovna Glebova, Russian: Наталья Владимировна Глебова officially changed her name to Natalie Glebova after arriving in Canada 24 years ago.
I know that many articles about titleholders like Dayana Sabrina Mendoza Moncada use explanation of naming customs, but they did not change their name since birth.   
Natalya Vladimirovna Glebova (13 years old) is not notable person and is not known to public. There is no reason to display patronymic repeatedly 3 times in this article.
To educate readers we should not overload article but provide useful links instead.
Once again, many web sites copy information from Wikipedia and publish incorrect birth name as the real official name.
I am moving that statement as a reference to this sentence:
Natalie Glebova (born Natalya Vladimirovna”Reference” Glebova, Russian: Наталья Владимировна Глебова; 11 November 1981) is a Russian-Canadian television host,
I hope you understand and will not oppose.
Voyad M (talk) 03:17, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

text: I have a few problems with your edits. If we are including her birth name in the lead, then it must be bolded. Additionally, there is no reason to put the Eastern Slavic naming customs note as a reference. While it'd be more logical to use a note instead of a reference to begin with, no articles actually use the patronymic in the article's title. It will not confuse the reader as "Glebova" is her surname regardless, and they will clearly see that "Vladimirovna" is part of her name as well just by looking down one line. Look at pages like Sergey Lazarev and Anna Kournikova. One note I have is that no sources are needed to verify a patronymic. As I've said previously, it is not a middle name. As long as you have a reference supporting the subject's father's name, then you will know what the patronymic is. All Russian girls born to a father named Vladimir will have the patronymic "Vladimirovna", that is how patronymics work. [[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 17:14, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

text: My latest solution looks reasonable and the "mouse over" function can be enhanced further to allow pointing at any part of the name to display pop-up text.
Or there is another alternative:
Use your Revision as of 03:00, 27 November 2018.   
Add extra explanation note at the end of paragraph. Like this:
This name uses Eastern Slavic naming customs; the patronymic is Vladimirovna and the family name is Glebova.
Natalie Glebova (Russian: Наталья Владимировна Глебова, born 11 November 1981) is a Russian-Canadian television host, author, dancer, model, and beauty pageant titleholder who was crowned Miss Universe 2005. Glebova had previously been crowned Miss Universe Canada 2005. 
"Natalie Glebova" is the official name on all documents since 1994.
Voyad M (talk) 21:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

text: I think I actually have a solution that can be a compromise. It'd be formatting the lead like this:
Natalie Glebova (born Natalya Vladimirovna Glebova; 11 November 1981) is a Russian-Canadian television host, author, dancer, model, and beauty pageant titleholder who was crowned Miss Universe 2005. Glebova had previously been crowned Miss Universe Canada 2005. 
[[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 21:56, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

text: OK, let's see how it looks on the page.   Voyad M (talk) 22:31, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've added it to the article and it looks good to me. [[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 22:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Thank you for a good and efficient solution.      Voyad M (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The latest edits of Natalie Glebova article 

message: :   OK, let's see how it looks on the page.   Voyad M (talk) 22:31, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've added it to the article and it looks good to me. [[User:Jjj1238|{ [ ( jjj]] [[User talk:Jjj1238|1238 ) ] }]] 22:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Thank you for a good and efficient solution.      Voyad M (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion