Talk:Indo-Scythians

message: Now that copyediting has made it clearer what the content of this article is, I suggest that that it be deleted and relevant sections be moved to Indo-scythians, Scythians, Sakas, Scythia, etc.
The content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes itself substantially duplicates these articles and I can't see any reason for keeping it as a standalone wikipedia entry.--Saganaki- 11:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I basically agree on the merge, but it is kind of hard to digest at this point. Let's dry to clean the article in the coming days. PHG 21:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes]] 

message: I have just been through the article removing the proliferation of academic titles - see: . In the process I made a number of other small edits - mainly spelling and grammar mistakes. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 10:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed academic titles as per Wikipedia Manual of Style

message: It seems then most probable that, as already stated, the Marātha caste was of purely military origin, constituted from the various castes of Mahārāshtra who adopted military service, though some of the leading families may have had Rājpūts for their ancestors. Sir D. Ibbetson thought that a similar relation existed in past times between the Rājpūts and Jāts, the landed aristocracy of the Jāt caste being gradually admitted to Rājpūt rank. The Khandaits or swordsmen of Orissa are a caste formed in the same manner from military service. In the Imperial Gazetteer Sir H. Risley suggests that the Marātha people were of Scythian origin: 
“The physical type of the people of this region accords fairly well with this theory, while the arguments derived from language and religion do not seem to conflict with it.... On this view the wide-ranging forays of the Marāthas, their guerilla methods of warfare, their unscrupulous dealings with friend and foe, their genius for intrigue and their consequent failure to build up an enduring dominion, might well be regarded as inherited from their Scythian ancestors.” 
reference:-http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20668/20668-h/20668-h.htm#d0e6680
2.http://books.google.com/books?id=QA2OKK0-bdcC&pg=PR20&lpg=PR20&dq=maratha+Scythian&source=bl&ots=jKH-qxg8cn&sig=Tsr6plVddbMDn2X8guS7Z8vMAJw&hl=en&ei=i6PwSZuHGI_y6gPEwpi2Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
3.http://books.google.com/books?id=76c1VSYnPE0C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=maratha+Scythian&source=bl&ots=vh0T1YB4WJ&sig=BV26hSvCx1MqsbwHI-jhdSW3cgc&hl=en&ei=i6PwSZuHGI_y6gPEwpi2Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4 
4.http://books.google.com/books?id=oVkANw-rsksC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=maratha+Scythian&source=bl&ots=7jQB526Gj5&sig=i_b2ksJMilXkGc0jVODRj-NpyRs&hl=en&ei=i6PwSZuHGI_y6gPEwpi2Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7  
5.http://books.google.com/books?id=76c1VSYnPE0C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=Imperial+Gazetteer+Sir+H.+Risley&source=bl&ots=vh0T1YC2PE&sig=KxUrRFOidsGarMhrbpzoz9NU1qo&hl=en&ei=YKbwSdyZApD26gOX2fS1Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9 
Imperial Gazetteer Sir H. Risley suggests that the Marātha people were of Scythian origin 
sonu 17:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source that says they aren't? There are sources above for the Indo-Scythian origin. --AW (talk) 11:13, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marātha people were of Scythian origin 

message: Some sources used in the Descendants of the Indo-Scythians section are patently not reliable. examples are
a geocities page, a self published treatise from the rajputana liberation front(!), OR document from searchmalta.com, puzzlers.org(?), sikhnet discussion forum, a personal site of a "professional whisky taster"(jatts.com) and a circular reference to a wikipedia mirror. I'm going to remove them, but leaving ones which have some references in their main article.  78.86.25.78 (talk) 04:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! This has needed to be done for too long! Cheers, John Hill (talk) 04:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: unreliable sources

message: I think this article has turned into a mess - a hodgepodge of different styles, many questionable and unreferenced and POV statements and speculations, the use of different systems of transcribing Chinese (perhaps we could standardise on Pinyin? Does anyone disagree with this suggestion?), much unnecessary repetition, etc., etc. It is a real mess! 
I began trying to sort some of it out this evening - but it will be such a huge job to get it into any kind of order and consistency that I gave up. Will try to get back to it when I am better rested but I am really uneasy as I fear I will get bogged down in tiresome arguments with people pushing their own POV speculations and theories. This is not the place for people to try to promote a position that the Indo-Scythians were among their ancestors. Can we together get this article up to Wikipedia standards? Here's hoping! John Hill (talk) 14:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is a total mess

message: I notice that in edits here and on quite a number of Wikipedia articles relating to Indian, Scythian (Saka) and related history, references are being made to B. S. Nijjars' book (see the title above). Unfortunately, I do not have a copy to hand so can only judge it on the pages I am able to access through Google Books, but even on these few pages I find so many outright mistakes, unsupported claims and outdated positions that the whole book must be considered an unreliable source for the history of this period. Here are just a few examples:
1. On p. 244, Nijjar claims the Kushans are "thought to have been of Yueh-chih stock with a strong admixture of Hephthalits, Saka and Tocharian." He makes no mention at all of who thinks this, or on what grounds. The truth is no one knows who the Kushans really were - there are many theories and little agreement in scholarly circles.
2. On p. 245, he makes the "Yueh-chih (Pinyin yuezhi) a branch of the Kushans, also called Indo-Scyth . . ." Again, he gives no reference or evidence for this amazing statement.   
3. On p. 247, there are several errors: first Nijjar claims that the Kushan dynasty is descended from the Yuezhi, contradicting his earlier statements. While this may well be so, it is a contested point and, as usual, there is no proof or references given.
4. On the same page he repeats the long-standing but now discredited notion that Kanishka is connected with the advent of the Saka era of 78 CE. Most scholars now accept Falk's well-reasoned and well-supported argument for Kanishka's era starting c. 127 CE.
5. Again on page 247 he states that Kanishka's empire stretched "from Khotan in the north . . ." Now, a Kushan army did invade the Tarim Basin in 90 CE, but it was soon forced to retreat by the famous Chinese General Ban Chao. Later, in the teens of the second century, Kushan troops are said to have placed a Kashgari hostage prince, Chenpan, on the throne of Kashgar, but not long after this Chenpan came under control of the Chinese. We have no definite historical or archaeological evidence that the Kushans ever controlled Khotan and, even if they did, it must have been for a very brief period.
6. And again, on the same p. 247, Nijjar states: "In outlook, Kanishka was full-fledged Indian . . ." This is pure speculation and demonstrably very unlikely. Kanishka's two longest and most important inscriptions are from northern Afghanistan in the Bactrian language (which is more closely related to Persian than Sanskrit or Prakrits) and, although one of his rarer coins has a Buddha on it, most of his coins feature Iranian deities. So, on what grounds does Nijjar claim that "Kanishka was full-fledged Indian"?
7. Nijjar has a chapter (No. 7) headed "The Kushans (Ancestors of Jat, Ahirs, Rajputs, Baloches, and Pathans) in which he makes a whole series of completely unsupported and unorthodox claims (such as that the Ta Yuan or Dayuan were Tokharians on p. 245). Then, under the sub-heading, "THE EMPEROR KUJULA KADAPHASES", he starts off: "The Yueh-chih succeeded by his son Vima, after whom came Kanishka . . . " WE already have three errors here: the name is usually written Kujula Kadphises, and it is not at all certain that he was a Yueh-chih (Yuezhi), and it has been known for some years now from the Rabatak inscription that, while he did have a son named Vima Tak(tu), this Vima had a son known as Vima Kadphises who, in turn, was the father of Kanishka. So Kanishka was Kujula Kadphises' grandson, not his son as Nijjar claims. 
8. Nijjar then goes on making a series of similar mistakes (plus numerous grammatical and spelling errors) - often showing his total ignorance of modern scholarship - I can't even begin to list them all here. I should mention though that, on p. 252, he makes a totally unsupported claim the Kushans were "of Saka stock" - a very contentious and unprovable claim. Indeed, if they were originally Yuezhi (as he earlier claimed), it is most unlikely that they were Sakas for the Chinese histories record that when the Yuezhi moved into the Ili region they defeated the Sakas there and they clearly represent them as two quite different peoples. 
9. And so he goes on, making uncertain claims one after another until he reaches the end of his chapter, on page 259, without once saying why he believes that the Kushans were "Ancestors of Jat, Ahirs, Rajputs, Baloches, and Pathans", as stated in the title of the chapter! And his next chapter (Chapter 8) is headed "The Huns (Ancestors of Jat, Ahirs, Rajputs, Baloches, and Pathans)" which, one can only assume in the end, would be similarly inconclusive and full of unsupported claims.
It is for these reasons (and others far too numerous to include here) that I maintain that B. S. Nijjar's book is a seriously flawed and sloppy work, full of errors and unsupported claims. Moreover, Nijjar is clearly unaware of recent scholarship relating to the issues he so confidently presents to the reader as facts. 
The book, as a result, is a very unreliable and misleading source for the history of the period and, so, references should not be made to it in the Wikipedia.
I will, therefore, start removing quotes from it, and references to it, wherever I come across them in the Wikipedia and refer people to this note for my justification. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 08:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The book ''Origins and history of Jats and other allied nomadic tribes of India: 900 B.C. - 1947 A.D.'' (2007) by B.S. Nijjar is an unreliable and misleading work which should not be used in the Wikipedia

message: There has been a box for a long time now suggesting that the articles on Sakas and Indo-Scythians be merged and a request that this possible merger be discussed here. There has been absolutely no discussion so far. I am totally against the idea as many Saka tribes seem to have had nothing to do with India at all, and the term "Indo-Scythian" has been used very loosely for groups of people (such as the Kushans - to give just one example) of whom the origins are still being hotly debated. I propose, therefore, that unless there is a significant number of editors with referenced arguments in favour, that we remove the merge boxes on both articles sometime soon. Any comments? Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 21:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Today I finally removed the Merge tag which had been sitting on the page since September 2009. John Hill (talk) 05:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

text: In the case of a book being unreliable, we could note that in the text. "Such and such book claims ____ but some (and cite who) do not believe the book is accurate for such and such reasons." --AW (talk) 11:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: To merge or not to merge?

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thread_title: File:Nahapana.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Is it worth mentioning that Y (male) DNA haplogroup most common amongst people such as the Jatts of the Panjab is R1a which is the most common haplogroup also found amongst people of Eastern Europe such as Ukranians and Poland? Search r1a to find more.
These are the two areas we find the highest percentage of the haplogroup and the fact that both these areas were greatly populated by the Scythians seems coincidental. 
Tsigano (talk) 20:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I just checked out this page: List of R1a frequency by population. I am sorry to contradict you, but it looks like your statement that: "These [i.e. the Panjab and Poland/Ukraine] are the two areas we find the highest percentage of the haplogroup", is simply wrong.  The tables given in the article show that the Arora people of the Punjab, H.P., and J&K, West Bengal Brahmins, and the Mohanna people of Sindh have the highest levels of any of the many groups tested. People from Poland and the Ukraine did have relatively high levels - but not nearly as high as the three groups mentioned previously. I don't know how this relates specifically to the Jatts of the Panjab. Furthermore, the determination of possible relationships between groups of people based on one haplogroup is complex and we would need the advice of experts here to determine what the significance of these figures might be. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  DNA 

message: Substituted at 18:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: The link doesn't mentiin saka / getae That's how I got here
^ W. W. Hunter, 2013, The Indian Empire: Its People, History and Products, Routledge, 2013, p. 251.^ a b Alexander Cunningham, 1888, cited by: Sundeep S. Jhutti, 2003, The Getes, Philadelphia, PA; Department of East Asian languages & Civilizations University of Pennsylvania, p. 13.^ a b Sundeep S. Jhutti, 2003, "The Getes", Sino-Platonic Papers, no. 127 (October), pp. 15–17. (Access: 18 March 2016).^ Sulimirski, Tadeusz (1970). The Sarmatians: Volume 73 of Ancient peoples and places. New York: Praeger. pp. 113–114. The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas)/Massagetan ("great" Jat) tribes from the Syr Daria Delta (Central Asia) by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darian tribes; they also invaded North India.^ Rishi, Weer Rajendra (1982). India & Russia: linguistic & cultural affinity. Roma. p. 95.^ Chakraberty, Chandra (1948). The prehistory of India: tribal migrations. Vijayakrishna Bros. p. 35.^ Chakraberty, Chandra (1997).Racial basis of Indian culture: including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal. Aryan Books International..^ The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume 10 - Persia, Greece, and the Western Mediterranean Cambridge University Press, 1982.  p 494  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cleareng (talk • contribs) 05:23, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jatt getae saka indo 

message: My edits were reversed twice without a valid reason. When did they conquer all of India? They only conquered the Northwest, I have added the exact location which is being removed. (2600:1017:B01A:1240:E149:8F69:C2C:CABB (talk) 21:52, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Indo-Scythian Northern Satraps were centered on Mathura. That's India. पाटलिपुत्र (talk) 04:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV pushing 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: @Joshua Jonathan Vikramaditya is a mythical figure. Don't add such details to the page.
Don't revert the removal of this part - "They invaded the Ujjain region in the southeast, but were repelled in 57 BCE by the Malwa king Vikramaditya. Vikramaditya established the Vikrama era that year to commemorate the event. The Saka again invaded Ujjain in 78 CE and established the Saka era, marking the beginning of the Western Satraps.The dynastic art of the Kushans, John Rosenfield, p 130" Witchilich (talk) 13:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vikramaditya is a mythical king 

message: They are buddist kings they only follow buddism. At that time India did not even have the name Hinduism, these words are later. Mohit atulkar (talk) 12:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  There religion is not hinduism