Talk:Penjing

message: This article:
"(Maintenance and Care)
The maintenance and care of penjing trees are similar to that of the bonsai, but the only difference is with the location of the plant being outdoors for penjing."
Bonsai article:
"(Location)
Contrary to popular belief, bonsai are not suited for indoor culture, and if kept indoors will most likely die. While certain tropical plants (Ficus, Schefflera, etc.) may flourish indoors, most bonsai are developed from species of shrubs or trees that are adapted to temperate climates (conifers, maples, larch, etc) and require a period of dormancy. Most trees require several hours of direct or slightly filtered sun every day."
Am I misreading this, or is the Penjing article incorrect? ZNull 10:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed this as well. Only certain bonsai are suited for indoors growth, only certain species. Most are ment to be grown outdoors. I think you're right; the Penjin article is incorrect, especially if it's claiming that this is a "difference" between Bonsai and Penjing. AlexDitto 18:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflicting information cross-article 

message: The above titled section lists some qualities of Chinese art but does not in any way detail differences between the identified forms, and adds no information about Penjing that is not available elsewhere in the article. If no one has made the section applicable to this article in the next week, I will be removing it. 144.15.115.165 14:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section was a copy-paste of the paragraph directly below it, so I removed it. It didn't fit the section header, either. Unfortunate... the article needs a section about the differences between the two arts (as the only one I've been able to discern is the use of tiny statues in Penjing) but I'm not sure where to put it or what to include. This page needs a lot of work. The section at the end with the huge list seems excessive. It needs sprucing. I'll try to help. AlexDitto 18:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference between Chinese Penjing and Japanese Bonsai 

message: It seems to me that the differences between Bonsai and Pengjing are not large. Moreover, the Bonsai article says: "The word Bonsai (盆栽) has been used by the West as an umbrella term for all miniature trees."
I'm wondering if there is really a need for separate articles. I know there is strong and tenacious resistance to the use of Japanese words for Chinese arts (and resentment that the name of the "derivative culture" has usurped the place of the original and authentic culture in English-language usage), but this has a lot to do with cultural chauvinism and not so much to do with the essence of the arts in question. This kind of petty quibbling over the spoils of the East Asian cultural sphere (and the deep hurt that China is not invariably given priority) is played out all over Wikipedia, from ume to Chinese dragon, to ink and wash painting, to name a few. Instead of fighting over this, the emphasis should be on enlightening readers. Articles should give a broad view over such East Asian (originally Chinese) arts rather than try and split them up by country to prevent the dirty Japanese from being given priority (sorry, but that's the mentality involved). If the same mentality reigned in the West, we would have separate articles for Classicism, classicisme, Klassizismus, Clasicismo, or cathedral, cathédrale, kathedrale, catedral, cattedrale, etc.
User:Bathrobe 17 March 2008  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.104.161.144 (talk) 05:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bonsai and Penjing

message: “The practice of growing stylized, transportable plants probably began with Buddhist monks traveling from ancient India to China. However before, ancient ayurvedic physicians in India returned from the Himalayas with shoots from medical trees. By growing them in pots, trimming their branches and cutting back the roots, they were able to keep the trees in a miniature form. The tulsi is one good example of this.
“In the 12th century, Bonsai was known as Vamanatanu Vrikshadi Vidya in India, which translates as the science of dwarfing trees... ”
There is little documentation of this in English.  There are two principle sources.  
1)  The dozen-and-a-half or so references on the Internet seem to all quote from this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010908142327/http://www.bonsai-in-asia.com/
Bonsai in Asia Guide Book, Sept. 8, 2001, About Bonsai in India, per Wayback Internet Archive, accessed 04/19/2010
"One theory about the beginning of Bonsai is that it actually originated in India. Ancient ayurvedic physicians carried back shoots from medicinal trees from the Himalayas and grew them in miniature forms in pots by trimming and cutting back the roots, the tulsi being a good example of this. In the 12th century Bonsai in India was known as Vamanatanu Vrikshadi Vidya which translates as the science of dwarfing trees. The art travelled to China, known as pun-sai, the art of growing single specimen trees in pots. Various specimens of trees were grown with thick, gnarled trunks, in pots. With its introduction in Japan, the art got refined to a great extent. Over the times, it took a different shape. Bonsai artists gradually introduced other materials like rocks, supplementary and accent plants created miniature landscapes in nature - known as sai-kei. Finally, in the mid-19th Century, Japan opened the doors to the rest of the world. It reached Europe through exhibitions. After about hundred years, it came back in its present form to India.
"The Indian Bonsai Society was formed in 1972 and there is an indication that people all across India are showing interest in the art of growing Bonsai. Bonsai is more popular with women in India and therefore small sized Bonsai are more common. Tray landscapes 'Saikei' are grown by many and planting different varieties in the one tray is common. There is also a quarterly Bonsai magazine called Nichin Bonsai distributed throughout India.  This article and pictures were taken from the BCI 'Bonsai Magazine' August 1998 and reprinted with the permission of them and authors Nikunj & Jyoti Parekh." 
2)  The oldest reference I've found is a quote from an article by a past president of India first mentioning this “Vaamanatanu Vrikshaadi Vidya (Vaaman – dwarfed, tanu – body, Vrikshaadi—of trees and Vidya—science),” as quoted in Koreshoff, Deborah  Bonsai: Its Art, Science, History and Philosophy (1984), pg. 2, footnote 3.  That footnote is listed as Davis, M.  "Ancient Hindu Bonsai" in Bonsai Society of Australia Newsletter, June 1970, pp. 6 & 8 .
Modern bonsai culture in India can be traced to a 1965 visit by American artist Mary P. Case.  We have not yet found any link between some early form in India and what is practiced today.  (http://www.phoenixbonsai.com/Days/DaysNov.html, NovAlso 1965)
RJBaran (talk) 19:01, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Bonsai in India

message: Bonsai contains largely the same material, there are very little differences in the essence of the article. Bonsai and Penjing is essentially the same art practiced in different countries: All of them are derived from the same Chinese art. Now, you might argue otherwise, but what makes this art different is that there can't be too different, and the reason is very obvious: plants can only react in so many ways to different handling techniques. Splitting the article would be like having two different articles for dandelions under different names.
I will say this but this is only my personal feelings. I was reading the Chinese Penjing site, and I clicked the English redirect, as the English site, with more contributers usually had more information. I wasn't surprised that the article was under the name Bonsai, but I was surprised that this art is somehow made completely and exclusively Japanese. It was only as I finished the article did I see a link to the article Penjing with exactly those "missing" informations. (history, etc.)
Now, I'm don't feel that the article should be somehow exclusively or predominately Chinese, I believe that the Japanese people contributed much to the development of this art as well. I only feels that it is redundant and confusing to split them into two articles.
So I have two things I'd like to propose. First, I feel that this article should be merged with the Penjing article on the grounds of simplicity and less confusion. It is just as well to redirect the words Pengjing to Bonsai, since Bonsai is how this art is known in the English language along with many other things. And two, I know I didn't state this above, but anyhow, I suppose that this art is practiced elsewhere in the world and not only in Japan and China, so perhaps another section on practice of this art in other countries is necessary.
If you have any comments, proposals, or concerns, you are welcomed to discuss this here or on my page.
I posted the same proposal on the Bonsai discussion board, the repetition was intentional.
Gw2005 (talk) 01:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propose Merge with Bonsai articles 

message: I have added my comments to yours in the Bonsai article's talk page. Sahara110 (talk) 20:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: merging ''Penjing'' and ''Bonsai'' articles

message: I suggest that the image currently used to illustrate the Penjing aesthetics section (as shown at right) be changed to a more representative penjing image. The image of the juniper is labelled with Japanese bonsai terms (jin, shari) which, though correct for that specimen and copied directly from the Wikipedia Bonsai article, make little sense in the context of a Chinese penjing article. The tree itself is identified as a bonsai in the image file's original location and may therefore be considered less than helpful as a representative example of penjing aesthetics. 
Since the image is not specifically referred to in the article text, I suggest a more appropriate one can be put in place with no other changes to the article. Thanks! Sahara110 (talk) 19:03, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have followed up and made the change. Sahara110 (talk) 17:23, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggest changing image of "this juniper" in [[Penjing#Penjing_aesthetics|Penjing aesthetics]] section

message: As you can see in Bonkei and Penjing, these words mean almost same object.(Bonkei is Japanese sound of 盆景 and Penjing is Chinese sound of 盆景.) So these article should be merged. --HaussmannSaintLazare (talk) 01:32, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the same reason I wrote in #proposal to merge Bonkei to Penjing. I did the merging with a silent consensus. But my merging was undid with no prior discussion. So I propose it again. --HaussmannSaintLazare (talk) 01:32, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the person, who want to undo the merging, should propose the division, rather than write the disagree message after completed discussion.  However, it has been a long time since the merging was canceled, and it is considered that a consensus has been reached regarding this state, so I propose the merging again. --HaussmannSaintLazare (talk) 02:02, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

text: Only in English wikipedia Penjing and Bonkei are devided. In :ja:盆景 (linking to Bonkei) it is written that 「盆景（ぼんけい）とは、お盆の上に土や砂、石、苔や草木などを配置して自然の景色をつくり、それを鑑賞する中国や日本の趣味、伝統芸術である。」, and in :zh:盆景 (linking to Penjing) it is written that 「盆景（盆栽）是在中国发明，之后传到日本、越南和朝鲜特有的一种传统艺术，约有一千二百多年历史。」. It is a matter for English speakers, not for the subject itself, how to properly use the four English words Penjing(盆景), Bonkei(盆景), Penzai(盆栽), Bonsai(盆栽). I think that it should be written in the English wikipedia how to use them properly.--HaussmannSaintLazare (talk) 02:59, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose, as there are distinct topics (different aesthetics). Just as English art differs from American art, Penjing differs from Bonkei, even though both might be practiced anywhere. Klbrain (talk) 13:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to merge Bonkei to Penjing (April 2021)