Talk:United States and state terrorism/Archive 13

message: What do editors think working on something about the US role in the state terror of Indonesia? In particuar, I was thinking of the coup against Sukarno and the near genocidal (500k leftists murdered), that followed? Also, more recently, US involvement with the genocide of East Timor by the Indonesian Miliary, which the US has also been accused of being complicit in.Giovanni33 04:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to add a section on how the US is responsible for the 70M killed in the Stalinist purges, and the 100M killed by Mao.  I believe those are the fault of the United States as well.  </font>  MortonDevonshire  Yo  ·  05:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have evidence for the claim that the US was involved, or are you only trolling, again?Giovanni33 06:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You might want to read the book The New Rulers of the World and see the documentary of the same title by John Pilger for sources on this. --Jack Merridew 09:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I know about the book and its on my reading list. I regularly read Pilger. Do you think a section on the topic, provided we find reputalble and notable sources that make the claims, would be a suitable addition to this article? I'd welcome any editor supplying sources they find on the subject. I think its an important area to cover.Giovanni33 11:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Suppose, just for the sake of discussion, that a descriptively adequate reference on American terrorism can be defined in such a way as to impose the extended definition we (at least some of us) seem to be using here. To provide a constituent structure for that work, the earlier discussion would need to correlate more closely than it does to Giovanni33's previous remarks further above. But let's suppose, still just for discussion, that he has in fact made his case for the different sort of analysis that he continues to demand, and tries to impose. Even then it still raises serious doubts about problems of legitimacy of state authority in this context, and the independence of supposed state actors. For any survey which is sufficiently broad to be of interest to our readers, the logical (not just textual) basis for inclusion here must be explicitly supplied in the references we provide the reader under WP:V. Presumably, the currently rather selective presentation of only a fraction of the ill deeds that could by broad implication be laid at the door of the US Capitol does less harm than a more universal treatment, but still falls short of our sourcing requirements. I hope we can all work together on that in the future. Tom Harrison Talk 11:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Would anyone like to translate that into a language I understand (I speak several besides English, but cannot parse this).--NYCJosh 18:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not get it either. Tom can you elaborate, possibly with less hypothetical's. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tom is saying that even if state employees carried out terrorism. Even if this was done in the name and to the benefit of the US, and even if those actions were authorized by US elected officials and using US state resources, the blame rests with the individuals involved, not with the US. ... Seabhcan 12:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another for the Asia section, Indonensia? 

message: The article is of course completely POV with every section amost exclusively presenting a collection of dubious claims that the editor personally think are examples of US "state terrorism". For NPOV, I think we should add an opposing views section like this User:Ultramarine/Sandbox. Thoughts? Ultramarine 09:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it...but one wonders how long they will last. I have little hope this article will ever be neutral.--MONGO 09:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "The Philippines is not a United States colony" - There are many who would argue with this unsourced claim. ... Seabhcan 09:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Such comments says everything. Do you want evidence that the Philippines is accepted as an independent nation by the UN? Ultramarine 09:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are those who would point to the Philipine law which explicitly excludes operations of a particular, named state, from operating military force in the country (surely a unique law in the world) and its frequent non-observance. ... Seabhcan 10:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I have never objected to inclusion of opposing views, in fact, I have always supported you including them. But they must be sourced to the same standard as the rest of the material. ... Seabhcan 10:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are refering to the sources like activist webzines in the Philliphines section that do not mentioning state terrorism or terrorism? Ultramarine 10:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your proposed section has no sources at all. ... Seabhcan 10:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of sources are given.Ultramarine 10:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The intro has many more sources than that. The other section are less important. None of the unsourced statements are controversial, like stating that the Philippines is an independent nation.Ultramarine 10:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How is it's independence relevant? Where is your source which shows this connection. This section is synthesis without a source. ... Seabhcan 11:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The material regarding being a colony is no longer necessary with the current text which no longer states that the nation is a US colony. I will remove it from the sandbox. Anything else? Ultramarine 11:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Exxon and BP and companies like them control everything...the U.S. may "exercise" control in some places, but real power is in the hands of the money people...and by that I include people like Chavez, who arguably controls Citgo anyway.--MONGO 10:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Dont add potencially contentious material until there is consensus among editors here from both sides of the POV, and make sure to allow enough time for such editors to review and comment, and agree. Then with consensus you can add, as I did recently. That is the way to go with this article. Lets all try to avoid any edit warring, which as we know only gets this article protected. We are making lots of progress so lets keep up the good work.Giovanni33 10:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You started an edit war, so certainly no consensus. No double standard. On the other hand, NPOV must be followed, and the article is currently a soapbox for one side.Ultramarine 10:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I did not start any edit war. Are you confusing me with the anon IP? That was the only edit war going on. Edit waring is counter productive and disruptive. How to acheive NPOV is often a matter of disagreement, so working with others and getting consensus first is key.Giovanni33 10:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits were reverted several times. There was no consensus on the talk page for your version.Ultramarine 11:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: News flash...I said a brief mention, not a book supporting your radical and not really notable additions. So much for my efforts to be neutral. The only way to deal with you is to simply say NO next time.--MONGO 11:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, I did keep it breif. Comprare it to the Phillipines section, and other sections. Its very small. I trimmed it down considerably to a summary, and only included the best sources. It could have easily been as large as every other section, but I respected your input on the matter. Be fair.Giovanni33 11:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So clearly no consensus. Do you agree to remove the section? Ultramarine 11:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So clearly I did have consensus. Again, look above. Only one editor disagreeing while I have support from everyone else on both sides of the fence. When you achieve the same let me know.Giovanni33 11:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Saying you agree, just not on its size, is not disagreeing. It is in fact agreeing that the content is worth, just stating you would like to make an undue weight complaint. As such it is an issue for trimming and editorial work, not deleting. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Giovanni33, why did you removed this sourced material: Ultramarine 11:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because its off topic. We have had this discussion before with several other editors saying that it was off topic, and gives undue weight to Chomsky. This article is not about Chomsky, and the attacks on him do not concern what he is cited here for (his claims).Giovanni33 11:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no attack on Chomsky, only on his claims. Read it again.Ultramarine 11:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did, its off topic, and doens't reply to Chomky's claims at all. It logically doesnt follow, a non-sequitur. It says: "However, actual empirical studies have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships." Show me where that issue (democratic peace theory) is an issue that this article talks about at all? Its off topic, and doesnt even address the claims Chomsky is being cited for in this article.Giovanni33 11:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The article states that "Chomsky has also described the U.S as "a leading terrorist state."" Obviously npov requires opposing views. Even without Chomsky's statement this comparison is still necessary for NPOV.Ultramarine 11:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, then find the opposing view: that says the US is not a terrorist state. Democratic peace theory isnt it. Also, remember, this article is not about Chomsky, so don't give him undue weight. Stick more to the subject, instead of the authors.Giovanni33 11:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Ad hominem - consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Chomsky's views are controversial.  Pointing out the controversy of his views is not strictly ad hominem.  --Tbeatty 14:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pointing out that someone should call X terrorism because they call Y terrorism, is not even disagreeing that X is terrorism. --SevenOfDiamonds 16:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It states he should have called other events, as terrorist events. --SevenOfDiamonds 16:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it is entirely appropriate to include criticism of Chomsky, and even necessary for balance. Tom Harrison Talk 14:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Completely POV 

message: Is it per Wikipolicy for an article to refer to itself as it does in the opposing views section?  
"For example, the current article states that 200,000 people died during the long civil war in Guatemala..."
It just didn't seem very academic and I was wondering if it was Wikipolicy to do something as such.Wiegrajo 11:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will correct it.Ultramarine 11:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wiki Policy 

message: This is interesting. Being reported in Israel, Turkey and Iran that the Turkish Foreign Minister asked the US to explain why it is supplying weapons to the Terrorist group PKK.  . ... Seabhcan 11:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Turkish-US relations would break apart if rumors of US supply of arms to the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) in Iraq are proven correct, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül said."  ... Seabhcan 12:18, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe we need an article on significant events that nobody has described as US terrorism. It might be easier to maintain. Tom Harrison Talk 12:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, we'd just end up arguing about what an 'event' is. ... Seabhcan 12:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Exactly, that would be one solution or just make this page: Criticism of US foreign policy, that way it could include all the US foreign policy mishaps and not be limited to semantics and weasel words such as terrorism.Wiegrajo 12:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. I think an article on state terrorism as applied to nations is a valuable one. As such I would oppose this section and no one is calling it terrorism, or even citing it as support for terrorists. There was a wall being walked before and I think we need to be careful we do not jump back and forth on it.--SevenOfDiamonds 17:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with SeveonOfDiamons on this. Lets keep this article to the high standards we've kept it at: only reliable sources and notable thinkers who describe their observations or make claims of State terrorism of the US, directly or otherwise.Giovanni33 00:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey 

message: I think I have addressed the concerns about this that some people expressed earlier. Let me know what you think. Tom Harrison Talk 13:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its a bit silly (which is your intention, I guess) but its fine other than that. I change the first line slightly. It appeared to fail the criteria for a direct statement which you have been expounding here for some time. ... Seabhcan 13:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I should have caught that myself. Tom Harrison Talk 13:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Requesting a source fix. The Webster.edu sources do not meet WP:RS as they are newsgroup/forum postings. I am interested in reading the actual source of the statements. From reading the forum posting it seems the discussion was not actually on such a broad scale but limited to Haiti and the Creole language, I think the direct sources would help me better understand the connections. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is also a worrisome as DeGraff is not posting directly, the person posting is <bcorbett@netcom.com> as can be seen by the header. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Oddly enough one source does state United States imperialism, cultural terrorism in the very same sentence. I am still not seeing a response on the sources. --SevenOfDiamonds 23:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural terrorism 

message: This section seems to smell of WP:SYNT to me. Who, exactly, is claiming that this is “state terrorism”? Remember, unless someone calls it such, it cannot be in the article. Claims and allegations of Extrajudicial killings, assassinations, and general repression are not the same as allegations of state terrorism, unless someone notable is making that claim. As of now, I don’t see that in the section. It would appear that the only individual really claiming this to be an act of "terrorism" by the US is E. San Juan (is that even a real name?!?), and as we all know, extrodinary claims require some extrodinary evidence. The link, used multiple times in the article, has its source at Indymedia: PHILIPPINES: FILIPINA MILITANTS INDICT BUSH-ARROYO FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY (Bay Area Indymedia), and we all know thats does not meet the WP:RS criteria either. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Should be removed.Ultramarine 15:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Phillipines 

message: I have found and added a couple of sources, made some adjustments to address the concerns expressed, and tried to better integrate the material with the rest of the page. I look forward to hearing suggestions for further improvement. Tom Harrison Talk 17:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still don't see that your changes satisified the objections rasied above. It contains no sources which accuse the US of state terrorism. Without reputable sources that accuse the US of state terrorism, directly or otherwise, its OR to include it here. We want to keep the standards of this article high. The source should say something about US supporting, directly or indirectly, state terrorism. And, to avoid SYNT, a reputable source itself must make the links concerning State terrorism by presenting that actual argument. So far the addition stands out as OR. If it can be fixed, fine, but I propose we move it to talk to work on it, and then restore it only after this main defect is fixed (if it can be)-like last time. Next time I suggest posting it on talk first.Giovanni33 19:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern and western Europe 

message: Again, exactly who are these (at least two are implied)?Ultramarine 17:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Human rights organizations" accusing the US of "state terrorism" 2 

message: Just more evidence for that this article is WP:SOAP violation. Why was the sourced arguments from the beginning of User:Ultramarine/Sandbox removed?Ultramarine 17:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which sourced arguments in specific? ThAtSo 17:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All those sourced arguments that you reverted.Ultramarine 17:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There were lots of sourced arguments that you reverted away:  Yet just before this you reverted back a section having arguments for the other side. No double standard please.Ultramarine 17:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You have given no concrete arguments for why you removed the sourced material. Please do.Ultramarine 17:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There were sourced arguments, like showing that Chomsky was wrong. Read again what you removed.Ultramarine 18:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You repeat by not answering why you removed the sourced material. See again what you deleted.Ultramarine 18:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Why are you guys arguing here, this is not the sandbox, please take it to your userspace. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of counter-arguments 

message: Regardless of how this article ended up for now (and I really don't know the details because I stopped paying close attention--amazing how much more "real" work I've been able to get done!) a long protection may not be a bad thing.  Lots of folks here can contribute to Wikipedia in lots of great ways, and in the end this article is small potatoes, whatever you think of it.  Maybe taking an uber-long break from this talk page (I can't imagine a whole lot will be accomplished) would be good for everyone.  We can all meet again to fight the good fight for truth, justice, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:NPOV, capitalism, communism, Noam Chomsky, David Horowitz, objectivity, encyclopedicness, the American way, the non-American way, my way, your way, her way, and, yes, the highway around the time of the autumnal equinox.  Incidentaly, some very interesting preliminary research suggests that contentious editing of Wiki articles is best undertaken when there's weird shit going on with the alignment of celestial bodies we hold dear.  I don't have a source for these studies, but damn it you'll have to trust me.  If Wiccans of different viewpoints can get down with one another during the equinox, why not Wikians?  No reason.  In solidarity, Bigtimepeace | talk |  contribs 08:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds good to me. Everyone have a nice summer. Tom Harrison Talk 00:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's call it a day, or rather a summer 

message: I hate wasting time on this issue but it is serious as this point has been ignored on numerious occasions in the past discussion of the title.
The title reads as if the US is making the allegations.  It is worded very poorly and rewording is in order.  It gives the whole page a different meaning!
Please someone answer why this semantic error is allowed to exist.  I have one suggested title:  Criticism of US Foreign PolicyWiegrajo 09:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I for one would support such a move, it would avoid the undefined perjorative terrorism. Since most of the article links to sources not mentioning "state terrorism", it would only reflect the subject.Ultramarine 09:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Keeping the word state terrorism is important for me, as that is what all our sources are geared towards. Criticism is too broad and expansive. I raised your semantical point, as well, and that is one of the reasons I favor "State terrorism by the United States" since its clear in the body its allegations, and the subject matter is clearly about State terrorism of the US. But, I don't want to edit war about this, and I think most people understand the title as it stands.Giovanni33 12:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Though I usually agree with the points you make on here I disagree with you twice on this.  Terrorism is a weasel word because it is completely a point-of-view term.  This is proven by some members here thinking that the US is guilty and some don't.  I bet you could rightfully call them liberal/internationalists and conservative/nationalists, respectively.  I also disagree with you that the current title is unacceptable. Anybody educated in correct english grammar would say that the article would be about the US making allegations of state terror, according to the title.Wiegrajo 12:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Oppose Terrorism is anything but a weasel word (a slippery word trying to undo the content it is a part of), it is a strong word - very strong, and State Terrorism should be retained, renaming it away is the ultimate in weasel words. This article is about allegations made that the United States practices State terrorism, as such the title is correct, anything else would be trying to POV away the existence of such allegations which are widespread and represent views held by a significant amount of humanity. Showing counter views should be reflected in the article, not the title - as the title already does so in using the word Allegations. The words state terrorism in the title are balanced by the word Allegation, so this title is not POV24.7.91.244 08:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Welcome Storm. Long time no see. I have no problem with such an article--but it would be a very big one. Charges of State terrorism is a subsection of the larger umbrella of critics of US policy (human rights violations, violations of international law, war crimes, etc--being other examples that would fall under the category grand category of "Criticism of US foreign policy." State terroism as a concept is notable enough that we can focus in on just that section, for its own article. So, I'm opposed to a name change to this valid and notable concept (yes, i know its POV--but its a notable POV that we  can easily fill an article about). But, I am for other article that document and report on other signifant claims, inclding the very broad and large category/title of "Criticism of US foreign policy."Giovanni33 00:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  and yet again, a complaint about the title. 

message: In the abundant literature related to evidence for El Salvador’s state terrorism many themes are explored; for the purposes of this article the following themes strike me as some of the most relevant: 1) documentary evidence of state terrorism, 2) the evolution of terrorist techniques employed, 3) U.S. complicity and responsibility, 4) the institution of the ‘death squad’. 5) acquiescence and denial of El Salvadoran state terrorism by the U.S. government, most media, and academia.
Selected Sources- the following constitutes the list of sources for what follows, which is just a sample of the literature... 
:1) Amnesty International Annual Report 1985, see also the Amnesty International Report-El Salvador:'Death Squads'-A Government Strategy  
:2) Cynthia J. Arnson – Assistant Director of the Woodrow Wilson Center’s Latin American Program. Previously, she was Associate Director of Human Rights Watch/Americas, and, as a consultant, coauthored several of America Watch’s earliest reports on El Salvador. She was Assistant Professor of international relations at the American University’s School of International Service and served as a senior foreign policy aide in the House of Representatives during the Carter and Reagan administrations. She has a Ph.D. from the John Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies. 
:3) Michael McClintock- Senior Advisor of Human Rights First, served as a researcher and director for Amnesty International for almost 20 years, moving from a focus on Latin America to a global portfolio in the late 1980s. He then moved to Human Rights Watch where he was deputy program director for eight years. He is author of  “The American Connection: State Terror and Popular Resistance in El Salvador, Zed Books, 1985” among others.  
:4) Cecilia Menjivar, Associate Professor School of Social and Family Dynamics Program in Sociology, Arizona State University and Nestor Rodriquez, Professor and Chair, Sociology Department. Co-Director, Center for Immigration Research. Contact University of Houston,  co-editors of “When States Kill:Latin America, the U.S., and Technologies of Terror” http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exmenwhe.html
:5) Michael Stohl-Professor and Chair, Department of Communication University of California, Santa Barbara. Formerly he was Dean of International Programs (from 1992) and Professor of Political Science at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, where he had taught since 1972. He has published 13 books and numerous articles on terrorism, political violence and international relations. His book “The Politics of Terrorism” is in its 3rd edition.
:6) George A. Lopez- professor of political science and Senior Fellow at the Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies at the University of Notre Dame
7) Gus Martin- Associate Professor and Chair of the Department of Public. Administration and Public Policy, California State University, author of "Understanding Terrorism"
8) Aldo A. Lauria-Santiago-
Associate Professor, Latino and Hispanic Caribbean Studies, and History; Chair, Latino and Hispanic Caribbean Studies- Rutgers University
:::Selected quotations...
::::According to the Amnesty International Annual Report 1985, a report of an Amnesty investigative mission that was made public in May 1984 “found that many of the 40,000 people killed in political violence in the preceding five years had been murdered by government forces who openly dumped mutilated corpses in an apparent effort to terrorize the population.” (Amnesty International Annual Report, 1985)
::::“From their beginnings, U.S.-led efforts in counterinsurgency planning for Latin America invoked high-level officials in a number of U.S. federal agencies…But the U.S.-trained Latin American forces did not always operate with the pinpoint precision of covert operations. On December 11, 1981, the U.S. trained Atlacatl Battalion of the Salvadoran Army killed hundreds of men, women, and children in one blow in the village of  El Mozote in El Salvador (Danner, 1993). The soldiers of the elite Atlacatl Battalion decapitated villagers, raped young girls before killing them, and massacred men, women, and small children in separate groups with their U.S. supplied M-16 weapons. (Menjivar and Rodriquez, State Terror in the U.S.-Latin American Interstate Regime in “When States Kill: Latin America, the U.S., and Technologies of Terror”, Menjivar and Rodriguez, eds. University of Texas Press, 2004)
::::Lauria-Santiago notes that at the time of the El Mozote massacre- “both the Salvador and U.S. government denied the very occurrence of the massacre.” (Danner,19994, Binford, 1996; Comision de la Verdad,1993) (Lauria-Santiago, Aldo A., State Terror and Repression in El Salvador, in When States Kill: Latin America, the U.S., and Technologies of Terror”, Cecilia Menjivar and Nestor Rodriguez, eds. University of Texas Press, 2004)
::::“A Salvadoran death squad member who described his training at S.O.A. explained how the U.S. instructor in one course emphasized “psychological techniques” and demonstrated new and more effective ways of using electric shocks during interrogations. On the final day of the course, students practiced techniques on real prisoners. “They were peasants,” the death squad member recalled, “no one noteworthy,” (quoted in Crelinsten, 1995, 50) . (Menjivar and Rodriquez, “State Terror in the U.S.-Latin American Interstate Regime”- "When States Kill: Latin America, the U.S., and Technologies of Terror”  19)
::::“The objective of death squad terror seemed not only the elimination of opponents, but also, through torture and the gruesome disfiguration of bodies, the terrorization of the population.” (Arnson, Cynthia J. Window on the Past: A Declassified History of Death Squads in El Salvador in “Death Squads in Global Perspective: Murder with Deniability”, Campbell and Brenner, eds,86)
::::“In El Salvador during the 1980’s, a Marxist revolutionary movement fought to overthrow the United-States backed government. To counter this threat, right-wing death squads worked in conjunction with Salvadoran security services to eliminate government opponents; leftist rebels, and their supporters, ORDEN was a paramilitary and intelligence service that used terror against rural civilians. Another death squad, the White Hand, committed numerous atrocities against civilians. (Martin, Gus- Understanding Terrorism, chapter “Terror from Above: State Terrorism,110)
::::“The imprint of a “White Hand” on the door of potential “death squad” victims in El Salvador or Guatemala performs much the same function. Central American officers today are perhaps familiar with that Vietnam “death squad” antecedent through access to the same declassified manual, or through personal contact with American training personnel. (McClintock, M.- American Doctrine and State Terror, in “Western State Terrorism”, Alexander George,ed.)
::::“One of the peculiarities of El Salvador’s reign of terror is that despite the fact that it was so extensive, systematic, and indeed, terrifying, its general outline and especially its quantitative aspects were relatively well-documented.” (Lauria-Santiago, Aldo A., State Terror and Repression in El Salvador, in “When States Kill: Latin America, the U.S., and Technologies of Terror”, Cecilia Menjivar and Nestor Rodriguez, eds. University of Texas Press, 2004)
::::“What has become especially difficult to describe and explain in El Salvador in the mid-1980’s has been yet another turn in the technology of government use of terror violence…Of deep concern to human rights monitoring agencies has been increased use of what appears to be “indiscriminate” air forces bombing of areas where noncombatant civilians but also guerrillas also operate. So, too, the planting of mines and harassment of national and international medical personnel, all indicate that although death rates attributable to death squads have declined in El Salvador since 1983, non-combatant victims of the civil war have increased dramatically. (Americas Watch, 1985a and 1985b) (Lopez, George A.- Terrorism in Latin America in “The Politics of Terrorism”, Michael Stohl,ed.)
::::“After a year that saw dramatic increases in U.S. economic and military aid to El Salvador and the sending of U.S. military advisers, the administration offered perhaps its most cynical response of the year, the certification of the improvement of human rights in El Salvador. The real issue for the administration was not that by using disputed and unreliable figures could the administration demonstrate a decline in deaths caused by the security forces and thus indicate that the regime was “improving”. (Stohl,M. National Interests and State Terrorism in “The Politics of Terrorism, M. Stohl, ed.)
::::“The United States became deeply involved in the Salvadoran conflict, committing itself to “draw the line” against communism and ultimately spending some $6 billion to counter what President Ronald Reagan considered a “textbook case” of Soviet, Cuban, and Nicaraguan aggression in the hemisphere. Throughout the decade and particularly during the years 1980-1983 when the killing was at its height, assigning responsibility for the violence and human rights abuses was a product of the intense ideological polarization in the United States. The Reagan administration downplayed the scale of abuse as well as the involvement of state actors. Because of the level of denial as well as the extent of U.S. involvement with the Salvadoran military and security forces, the U.S. role in El Salvador- what was known about death squads, when it was known, and what actions the United States did or did not take to curb their abuses- becomes an important part of El Salvador’s death squad story.” (Arnson, Cynthia J. Window on the Past: A Declassified History of Death Squads in El Salvador in “Death Squads in Global Perspective: Murder with Deniability”, Campbell and Brenner, eds, 88)
::::“Thus the United States would continue to supply, aid, and train the El Salvador security forces and turn a blind eye to the terrorism of the state. Continued U.S. support for the regime amounts to a form of surrogate terrorism. The Salvadoran regime maintains itself (the U.S. objective) through the use of terrorist methods and the United States assists the regime in its efforts.” (Stohl-National Interests and State Terrorism- “The Politics of Terrorism”, Stohl, M. ed)BernardL 00:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So are you suggesting we change the article name to Allegations of Accessory after the fact state terrorism by the United States ?--Tbeatty 23:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, civilian deaths at the hands of the government is not de facto state terrorism.  Soviet Communism, Chinese Communism and North Korean Communism has killed well over 100 million civilians and none of it would qualify as state terrorism.  --Tbeatty 23:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your sources for that would make a great NPOV section and I am still not understanding why you have not helped in creating one based off of them. If you do not feel like writing the section, you can give me the sources and I will attempt to write it. --SevenOfDiamonds 03:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That is your personal opinion and not relevant here. This is not a place for OR, as your comments would be. This is a place where we report what relaible source claim on the topic of "Allegations of State Terrrism by the United States." If you go to the top of the article you will see that as the title. I'm sure its not hard to miss. The claim from my source above says: the US "gave diplomatic support to state terrorism." And reporting that is appropriate.Giovanni33 01:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: El Salvador: Another Episode...

message: It seems to me that, regarding the current division of opinion as expressed on the talk page, at least those who are for the inclusion of the material have a position of compromise to offer. We could allow a relevant, adequately sourced criticism of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki section. We could also include a sentence designating our material as a minority or controversial viewpoint- even though this is redundant, since it has already done in the main introduction.
On the other hand, for those who insist on deletion of the well-sourced material from university profs of global stature- well, no position of compromise is possible, with them. So they blank it, run away, and attack the user who is trying to find common ground. For them, the majority of regular editors, or at least a very significant portion, must simply be muzzled on this issue.  It amounts to the censorship of significant minority viewpoints and wikipedia becomes all the poor for this loss of legitimate diversity. Also the real reason it is being forcefully vandalized is not because it's poor,but rather because it's too good, too well-referenced from major figures.
If it really is an issue with the sources (OR?!?!), then we can just add more solid sources for Hiroshima/Nagasaki, issue. The literature on this articles subject is actually quite abundant and significant. Those editors who have blanked the material that most editors agreed to add, and did so through consensus,  can't win the argument by WP policies, so they become desperate and must attack, and just blank, but fail to explain themselves. The question is, will WP allow them to continue to silent significant minority viewpoints and editor such as myself who are fighting for such legitimate and important diversity of content, or will they all this gang to run rampant to supress and whitewash WP from a global Encylopedia to one that suffers from systematic bias rooted in US nationalism? I have no doubt that it will be the former, and that this group will eventually face repurcusions  if they continue along the same vein in this article.Giovanni33 20:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You started out fine, then you began a steep devolution after the first paragraph. Don't expect editors to bother to address your concerns when you present them in the form of a personal attack. - Crockspot 03:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole issues is that lack of addressing, and as such will leave this page in an edit warring state everytime its unprotected. How about sucking it up and just addressing the issue? I mean noone is going to get anywhere without actually doing so. --SevenOfDiamonds 03:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I expressed my concerns about the sources several times last night, in multiple venues. I could clarify in more detail, but I am certainly not inclined to put in the effort while the personal attacks continue. I think some refactoring of comments is in order. I had a nice day outside today. I really could care less about this article and Giovanni's issues right now. - Crockspot 03:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you dont' care about it, I take it you wont blank well sourced material after multiple editors who do care about it, agree that its approrpriate and add it? Because that is what you did before. So,  when it is restored--as it was added through consensus---you won't repeat your ignoble actions, at least not without first gaining consensus to do so. That starts by making your case and convincing others. But, if you don't care then I don't expect you to do that, and by the same token, I don't expect you to edit war in this article again, either. That would be a good thing.Giovanni33 03:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one blanked well sourced material against consensus, I don't see how you can accuse Crockspot of doing it.  --Tbeatty 07:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that you have trouble reading, below? As I said, to Crockspots credit, he was not one of the guilty editors. However, you are one of the main ones to do so, over and over, so is Beguiled, Dan, and ofcourse, Junglecat. Do you want me to provide differences to prove this, along with the section on talk to prove the material was added with consensus? I've have done that already, but since you seem to miss a lot, I'll be happy to show again. But, I think you should recall the discussion. It the one where every editor agreed with me to add, except yourself. Even Mongo agreed. You were the one lone editor who did not agree, but you didn't give any good reasons.Giovanni33 18:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  I edit warred? You got diffs? - Crockspot 03:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize. You were not one of the guilty editors. I hope you accept my apology. For some reason I thought you were among the three or so that did this to the material.Giovanni33 04:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see how its misleading. Yes, the definition is applied in a non standard way by these scholars (I list two, btw). It's certainly a very small minority view point, even more smaller than those who claim it to be state terrorism. My reason for including that was simply to mention the full range of opinions, so I dind't want to get in too much detail abou the genocide view, but I'm happy with making a change to your liking. Would you be ok if we added a few words to make that point clear? For example: "Contrary to the standard definition of genocide, some consider and that these bombings represent a genocide."? Also, its not just one source, but two: Frey, Robert S. (2004). The Genocidal Temptation: Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Rwanda and Beyond. University Press of America. .  Reviewed at: Rice, Sarah (2005). "The Genocidal Temptation: Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Rwanda and Beyond (Review)". Harvard Human Rights Journal Vol.; and Dower, John (1995). "The Bombed: Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japanese Memory". Diplomatic History Vol. 19 (no. 2)."Giovanni33 06:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are two cites, but they both refer to Frey's view. I don't think the review endorses his view. To state it plurally, you would need to cite other scholars who express this view. And to respond to comments below, I'm specifically referring to the view that it is genocide, not the terrorism claim. The subject of this article is not genocide. - Crockspot 19:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, if you count the review its three cites, but its just a review of Frey's view. The third one, is:Dower, John (1995). "The Bombed: Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japanese Memory". Diplomatic History Vol. 19 (no. 2). How is he connected with Frey? Again, I'm completely open, if its conensus to get rid of the genocide bit. I personally don't agree with Frey and Dower, myself, but my intent was to cover the full range of views, mention the conensus view, and then go into detail about the articles subject: those who claim it is state terrorism. I do appreciate your imput, and I thank you for helping to improve this section.Giovanni33 19:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I am also willing to get rid of the genocide mention all together, but I will point out that the main article on the subject even mentions this view. Strangely, I was not allowed to include the state terrorism view there--not even a single word; as soon as I made the edit Mongo showed up there to revert me (and two other editors who supported my edit); he got his way to keep it out--for now, since I didn't want to edit war. Since this article is locked, I'll probably go there to suggest a re-write of that section, which does not reflect the current academic consensus properly, and have it mention that state-terrorism is also a term/concept that is used to characterize the bombing (far more so than genocide is). Maybe you can help over there, as well?Giovanni33 07:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Change my mind about the genocide comment. It should not be removed all together as it is mentioned more than once. Infact, its mentioned 4 times (one in a review). In addition to the above, the article also cites this source: # ^ Cumings, Bruce (1999). Parallax Visions. University Press of Duke, 54.  Sherwin, Martin (1974). A World Destroyed: The Atomic Bomb and the Grand Alliance. I use it to support this sentence, "University of Chicago historian Bruce Cumings states there is a consensus among historians to Martin Sherwin's statement, that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst."So, it should be mentioned briefly. The qualifying language, above, though is fine as a compromise to address your objection.Giovanni33 19:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Any one of those authors is notable enough to justify inclusion. Although Puniyani is the only one writing outside his specialty he is still condidered an expert in the subject. To call their work OR or fringe is so rediculous that to make such a claim to justify blanking is vandalism no matter how you spin it. Wayne 18:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  How do those authors source the "genocide" claim? - Crockspot 19:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They don't, but those that blanked the section claimed that the allegations of State terror were OR. Othewise, they would only remove the sentence mentioning genocide (although it is sourced and thus not OR).Giovanni33 19:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  I'm just getting started. I intend to closely evaluate every source cited, but I'm going to do it in my own sweet time. There is no hurry here. - Crockspot 20:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you are, the article is protected anyway until September, so it gives you plenty of time to work. Just do not come back to me wasting my time with WP:RS, as published authors WP:RS and WP:V and now WP:OR are satisfied. Enjoy your study time. --SevenOfDiamonds 21:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The issue at hand 

message: Is this your idea of an opposing view?
One reason for the United States' and other Western nations' support of certain right-wing dictatorships is because it is rare for democracy to exist in nations with low economic development. In these nations the population often lacks literacy, education, and is otherwise too poor to be able to fully participate in the democratic process. Thus supporting a dictatorship that promotes economic growth has often been seen as the best option available, anticipating that this will eventually lead to democratization. Evidence of this claim is the fact that right-wing dictatorships in all of the following nations eventually became democracies: Portugal, Spain, Greece, Turkey, Chile, Brazil, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, and Indonesia. However, this view has been challenged recently by arguing that research shows poor democracies perform better than poor dictatorships by enjoying better economic growth, with the exception of east Asia.[5] However, many US supported dictatorships have not become democracies, such as Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, etc. In addition, many communist countries opposed by the U.S. have also become democracies, including Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Ukraine, Romania, Croatia, Albania, Serbia, and Mongolia.
Defenders of the United States[Who?] point out the US has rarely used violence against another democracy. However, the U.S. has toppled many democratically-elected governments, including those of Iran, Guatemala, Haiti, and Chile when it suited its interests, showing a lack of real concern about whether or not countries in the developing world are democratic, but very real commitment, like most great powers in history, to furthering its own political and economic objectives. When the United States was involved in coups d'états against other democratic states, one explanation given was the believed perception that these states were on the verge of becoming Communist dictatorships or under communist influence. Also complicit was the role of semi-transparent, or non-transparent United States government agencies, such as the C.I.A., who sometimes did not implement the decisions of or mislead elected officials.[130] Covert actions have been facilitated by the establishment of a policy known as "plausible denial," according to which, elected officials, including the president, could plausible deny actual knowledge of illegal or unsavory operations by the CIA. Thus, these operations, if they came to light of day, could be conveniently denied and the elected officials insulated from crtique.
Not only is it unsourced, it is blatant POV and should be removed immediately. I'm neutral on the rest of the article but that section is a disgrace. MartinDK 19:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I compeltely agree. Its the only part of the article that is really OR. Yet, those who are blanking this articles content, removed the valid sourced sections as OR, and leave the real OR untouched. That says a lot. To be clear, I'm all for an "opposing views" section, but not if doing so is going to mean OR (poorly written to top it off). That should have been removed and placed on talk and only added after there was agreedment to do so--like was done with the Japan section, which they then blanked.Giovanni33 19:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If we all agree that this section should come out, then an admin should be able to do that for us without affecting the other dispute. Let's gather a few more comments here. - Crockspot 19:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and by the same token, restore the Japan section after we address all valid objections to it?Giovanni33 19:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If and when we "all agree". - Crockspot 20:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with that, since we already obtained that before the blanking started. But, disagreement must be reasoned and not simply "I dont' like it." Agreed? I also suggest we give a reasonable time line to address all valid objections, so we can restore the section before Sept. I would say a resonable time would be a week.Giovanni33 20:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't speak for anyone else, and it looks like people are giving this a break for the summer. I'm not in a big hurry. - Crockspot 20:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Concensus is concensus after all, and it can change quickly as other noted, it was MONGO's reasoning for changing his mind overnight. So I am sure if your objections are reached and others we can have it removed, without waiting on the possible return of people who may not return. A week sounds reasonable, unless of course more time is needed. No need for arbitrary long, or short deadlines. --SevenOfDiamonds 21:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That one is at least sourced and more balanced. Of course the article should present both views so why not agree to put that one in the article instead and then work towards improving it as well as the rest of the article? This article has more sources than the vast majority of articles here, a little give and take and work towards keeping the article balanced would be a great improvement. MartinDK 08:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lets remove that unsourced 'POV" paragraph and add the Japan and El Salvador sections back in. There will need be more sections on Latin America too. I am collecting evidence from the articles and books of former Delta Special Forces soldier Stan Goff who directed some of the Death Squads in Latin America under orders from the American government. Bmedley Sutler 22:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I dont think the removal of the Phillipine secton was done properly either. It shouldn't have been removed without consensus.Giovanni33 19:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Protected edit declined. I can't tell what edit, exactly, is being requested here. Sandstein 11:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opposing views 

message: This entire section seems to rely on the opinion of one source, Frederick Garneau. Garneau manages to get a whopping 86 hits on goolge, none in google books, and none on google scholar. It would seem that this section does not have any quality references, and as such will be removed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, please do remove it since it serves no purpose except to advance the proposition that America=evil.--Beguiled 21:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  While that may be true, it is also true that there are no WP:RS's for this and as such, it will go now. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we can add more sources. The critic is notable, and he belongs here. The section should be supplemented with more sources, I agree, but there is no  consensus to remove the whole section. So I restored it.Giovanni33 22:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then by all means, add sources, because the single source in the article now is not notable. No book hits for him and only 86 hits on google. An extraordinary claim like “The USA engaged in State Sponsored Terrorism in so and so” needs a better source than PHD Bumblefucknobody whose only claim to fame is being the departmental chair for Women Studies at the Keokuk Community Technical Colege of Drama and Dance. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please seek community concensus before blanking, and please note concensus is not often reached in an hour, as that does not give anyone time to respond to your concerns. --SevenOfDiamonds 23:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, by all means lets get concensizing. Does one obsure source an article section make? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure you can find additional sources to add, to support the material, instead of blanking it. Did you even try, I wonder?Giovanni33 16:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Where can I read the section that Torturous Devastating Cudgel deleted please? Thanks, FightCancer 10:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  El Salvador 

message: From the 1993 book What Uncle Sam Really Wants by Noam Chomsky:link
<I>"The Jesuits were murdered by the Atlacatl Battalion, an elite unit created, trained and equipped by the United States. It was formed in March 1981, when fifteen specialists in counterinsurgency were sent to El Salvador from the US Army School of Special Forces. From the start, the Battalion was engaged in mass murder. A US trainer described its soldiers as "particularly ferocious.... We've always had a hard time getting [them] to take prisoners instead of ears."
In December 1981, the Battalion took part in an operation in which over a thousand civilians were killed in an orgy of murder, rape and burning. Later it was involved in the bombing of villages and murder of hundreds of civilians by shooting, drowning and other methods. The vast majority of victims were women, children and the elderly.
The Atlacatl Battalion was being trained by US Special Forces shortly before murdering the Jesuits. This has been a pattern throughout the Battalion's existence — some of its worst massacres have occurred when it was fresh from US training. . . .
According to Rev. Santiago, macabre scenes of this kind aren't uncommon.
<B>People are not just killed by death squads in El Salvador — they are decapitated and then their heads are placed on pikes and used to dot the landscape. Men are not just disemboweled by the Salvadoran Treasury Police; their severed genitalia are stuffed into their mouths. Salvadoran women are not just raped by the National Guard; their wombs are cut from their bodies and used to cover their faces. It is not enough to kill children; they are dragged over barbed wire until the flesh falls from their bones, while parents are forced to watch.</B></I>
Is the following an acceptable source? link Page 199 +
Can someobody with Lexis look up  Joya Martínez' testimony to the Church Commitee or whichever US panel he testified to? Bmedley Sutler 05:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Spiffy as that above quote was, no where is it mentioned that this was an act of state terrorism by the United States, and the inclusion would seem to be WP:OR. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  There are a lot of sections like that.  Lot's of OR and Synthesis.  People die = State Terrorism is not a valid argument for inclusion.  --Tbeatty 14:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Give this man a cookie! Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. This article is a dumping ground for OR and personal essays.Ultramarine 15:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And make it TWO, count 'em, two cookies for Ultramarine. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  and.... what, exactly comes after this? Cause from where I am sitting I see no text that specificly cites this as an "act of terrorism", or am I missing something? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 02:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I hope you don't mind that I slightly adjusted the formatting of the Chomsky excerpt above for readability.  In the future, I propose we consider this link ( http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html ) as it contains the entire book online.  Also, it may be worth including that Chomsky specifically stated elsewhere in December, 1991 that "all of this is international terrorism, supported or directly organized in Washington with the assistance of its international network of mercenary states."  FightCancer 10:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  El Salvador and César Vielman Joya Martínez 

message: NB. Hey who deleted stuff from this talk page? 199.125.109.55 17:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would remind Crockspot that there was no consensus to remove the section (which was originally added through consensus) so it should rightly be replaced so it can be discussed. This is especially important considering no editor has been able to find a reason to justify removing it yet. Blanking the section was what caused the page to be protected not as you incorrectly claim, adding it. It was just bad timing that the page was protected before the vandalism could be reverted. Adding the section would not require anything remotely resembling an admin "sticking his or her neck out" as it should have been in the article when it was protected in the first place. I'll assume good faith that your incorrect claims are not an attempt to scare admins away from putting it back. Wayne 17:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: What are the objections to inserting Ultramarines version of the opposing views section? MartinDK 19:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was stating the general attitude toward admins editing protected pages, for the benefit of the non admins who are asking for this slew of additions below that do not have consensus for adding. I doubt that I could "scare admins" if I tried. Again, it is reasonable, per WP:V, for an admin to remove from a protected page material that everyone agrees should be removed. It is very risky for an admin to add disputed information to a protected page. It's a fact that admins know, but apparently some run of the mill editors don't know. The comment was directed at those editors. It is a waste of talk page space to put up a laundry list of disputed additions, and expect any admin to hop to and add them. - Crockspot 18:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Laying it all out like the above will only confuse and deter an admin from altering the page. To put it simply the paragraph mentioned in point 2 needs to be deleted and the section that was the subject of the revert war replaced. Checking history will show exactly what section that is. A simple 2 edits and problem solved. Then we can move on to working out how the section should read rather than argue. Wayne 18:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this approach. Further modifications can be done aftewards. Lets keep it simple sounds like a good approach.Giovanni33 23:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That section you are refering to, I think is the Japan section shown above and below. There were two other sections removed (the other is Philipines) but only the El Salvador section has been requested re-instated. 199.125.109.25 18:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: What is your reason for refusing to replace the opposing views section with Ultramarine's sourced and OR free version? There is no consensus on 1-4, number 5 has not been disputed, it does not constitute a change in how much weight is given to each side of this dispute and it counts as enforcing WP:OR and WP:V which are policies that must be satisfied regardless of any pseudo-concensus. Policy trumphs concensus. Any attempt to halt such an enforcement to gain the upper hand in another dispute or try to barter when there is nothing to barter about violates WP:POINT. Still neutral on 1-4. MartinDK 10:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit protected 

message: ====Japan====   
   
    
Some legal scholars, historians, other governments, and human rights organizations have accused the United States of having committed acts of State terrorism as a result of the nuclear attacks against the Empire of Japan at the end of World War II. The 'atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki', remain the only time a state has used nuclear weapons against concentrated civilian populated areas. Some critics hold that it represents the single greatest act of state terrorism in the 20th Century. Some academics also consider that these bombings represent a genocide.   
 Reviewed at:   
   
   
    
The role of the bombings in Japan's surrender, as well as the effects and justification for them, has been subject to debate. In particular, the claims that these attacks were acts of state terrorism remain a matter of controversy. However, University of Chicago historian Bruce Cumings states there is a consensus among historians to Martin Sherwin's statement, that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst."   
   
   
    
5. Replace the text in the section "Opposing views". 
199.125.109.55 14:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your reason for refusing to replace the opposing views section with Ultramarine's sourced and OR free version? There is no consensus on 1-4, number 5 has not been disputed, it does not constitute a change in how much weight is given to each side of this dispute and it counts as enforcing WP:OR and WP:V which are policies that must be satisfied regardless of any pseudo-concensus. Policy trumphs concensus. Any attempt to halt such an enforcement to gain the upper hand in another dispute or try to barter when there is nothing to barter about violates WP:POINT. Still neutral on 1-4. MartinDK 10:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Asia

message: Some legal scholars, historians, other governments, and human rights organizations have accused the United States of having committed acts of State terrorism as a result of the nuclear attacks against the Empire of Japan at the end of World War II. The 'atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki', remain the only time a state has used nuclear weapons against concentrated civilian populated areas. Some critics hold that it represents the single greatest act of state terrorism in the 20th Century. Some academics also consider that these bombings represent a genocide.   
 Reviewed at:   
   
   
    
The role of the bombings in Japan's surrender, as well as the effects and justification for them, has been subject to debate. In particular, the claims that these attacks were acts of state terrorism remain a matter of controversy. However, University of Chicago historian Bruce Cumings states there is a consensus among historians to Martin Sherwin's statement, that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst."   
   
   
    
5. Replace the text in the section "Opposing views". 
199.125.109.55 14:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your reason for refusing to replace the opposing views section with Ultramarine's sourced and OR free version? There is no consensus on 1-4, number 5 has not been disputed, it does not constitute a change in how much weight is given to each side of this dispute and it counts as enforcing WP:OR and WP:V which are policies that must be satisfied regardless of any pseudo-concensus. Policy trumphs concensus. Any attempt to halt such an enforcement to gain the upper hand in another dispute or try to barter when there is nothing to barter about violates WP:POINT. Still neutral on 1-4. MartinDK 10:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Japan

message: there's a missing doubletick on the chomsky quote in the "using the united states' own definition" section. i'd have fixed it for you, but, you know, it's protected from being fixed. cheers, 69.143.136.139 01:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: done. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  missing doubletick