Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat/Archive 4

message: The ex-premie article is now redirected here, as all important material and data has already been lifted from there. If you need to pick up some more you can  go to the history page and lookup the last version. --Zappaz 16:01, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ex-premie article now redirected 

message: In the Miscellaneous section, the part where the critics question the probity of the magazine articles remains, but the use of ironic quotes around the words journalist and interview had to be removed. It is a way of signifying that the encyclopedia does not believe that is is genuine. I don't think Wiki has a position on whether these are "real" articles or "PR" articles or anything in between. 
Once you start that game of ironic quotes, you're done for, because you could put ironic quotes around anything to cast subliminal doubt. It's cute, but not fair or scholarly. Besides, the important part is that the anti group says that the uncritical tone and lack of questions about the divinity stuff is proof that these are a sham, so why not let that be shown and let the reader evaluate? Don't think for the reader, I say.
I took a shot at clarifying the subheading for the part about Macgregor and Gubler. I thought a more accurate heading is "Legal Actions Against Ex-Premie Activities." Is it fair to these two to call it "the Macgregor and Gubler affair?" After all, the point of the whole thing was that there was court action taken against the activity. In other words, I thought the headline kind of demonizes these two. I don't mean to imply that that's what the pro-Rawat people are doing, but it kind of personalizes the focus. It's what these guys DID that brought them into the story, not who they are, right?  In that same way, I moved the bit about Jeffrey Leason and the NAF decision here, too. 
changed the heading of the next section to "Rawat's Students Question Critics' Motives and Credibility". In that section, I tightened it up, and -- please, pro-Maharaji folks, don't jump on me -- I cut a lot of the stuff that didn't have direct evidence. For example, I went back and looked at the Ackland stuff (he and Macgregor are close, I learned) that there is independent factual evidence, as does the Leason/Drek stuff (With some copy edits). 
But absent independently verifiable material, I cut and condensed the generalized allegations about the anti-peoples's character. The link to the Elan Vital article will suppply more facts in someone needs to read the minutae. In fairness, it's important to add that there haven't been any criminal charges in connection with this stuff, and I added that. If there have been any police reports or charges, you should add them. 
I also tightened up the part about appearing at schools. I cleared up the run-on sentence and got right to the point, that critics say he uses these venues to increase his prestige. But you can't say that he just "rented" it. In almost all cases, you need an invitation from a student union, a student government member, or faculty member, at the very least. I looked at the transcripts of these events, and Rawat was introduced by someone from the institution. You just can't imply that he secretly "rented" the place (by the way, HE rented, or one of his front groups rented? Be accurate!) and later claimed to have their endorsement. That's just not the way schools and institutions work.
Richard G. 23:15, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Richard, what do you mean? Universities have conference rooms that they also rent for commerical purporses. That is how it works here, as far as I know. Andries 23:17, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: These aren't small conference rooms, they're pretty darn big places! But in either event, the real question is whether it's fair to say that the institutions didnlt know he was there or anything. Given the awards and speeches thay made in his favour, that doesn;t make a lot of sense. It's apretty small issue in the scheme of things anyway, don;t you think?
Richard G. 23:23, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: Richard G., well, yes, I admit that is part of it but not everything. The main controversy is that the presentation to the public suggest an affiliation with the university  or invitation by the university that is not there. This would be a propaganda trick to increase his credibility to current and prospective followers. Andries 23:29, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand, but given the size of the piece, the far more serious allegations made, it's pretty small potatoes to argue that his appearing on one campus or another is "propaganda" or not. The underlying theme is that the anti people just don't trust him at all. Maybe they shouldn't, but it's a matter of seeing the forest for the trees. Of course their press releases say "at Harvard" or whatever. I do the same thing when I present a paper at Columbia University or Georgetown. Is that "propaganda"? How on earth will you ever prove that I did it ONLY to increase my prestige? Thanks for the logical and calm approach. The anti people seem to have a lot of aggression they like to take out through the Internet! I hope that the threast that Jossi recieved were only a joke... Richard G. 00:26, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, but when you present a paper then it is a university related event and that is the difference. I mean, it depends on the degree of discrepancy between reality and presentation. If the discrepancy becomes too big then I believe this is unethical. Andries 17:51, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits/rationale 

message: 1. Is it Ex-Premie, or Ex-premie or ex-premie?
2. Should subheads be in initial caps?
thnxRichard G.
:There is no mystery about the term ex-premie. We were premies, and now are no longer premies. The prefix 'ex-' is used in the same way as in 'ex-president', 'ex-wife', 'ex-footballer', etc. It is normal use of the English language. The only weird thing is the word 'premie' but for many years I sat and listened to Prem Rawat begin his speeches with 'Dear premies,....'. It was certainly not used with a capital 'p'. --John Brauns 23:23, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: ex-premie, I think, but I do not know whether premie was normally with a capital. It is Wikipedia style not to use capitals often. Andries 17:51, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  style question 

message: Mostly small copy edits in the section where the critics' credibility is questioned. Moved higher up the line about none of them being criminally charged for the generalized claims of harassment. That allows the readers to determine on their own whether this is petty squabbling or REAL trouble-making. 
Like duplicating computer files without permission, or registering fraudulent domain names. All the spin in the world doesn't change that this is disgraceful behavior. I've already seen some vitriol here, and I see that the emotionalism of the anti- group seems to justify this sort of thing to them, but I just can't agree. Breaking the law is breaking the law. :( 
I also noticed that the multiple links to the old pictures of Rawat dressed up like a god all went to a web page that had the same images accessible on a menu bar, so they've been collapsed. 
I still haven't heard here or seen anywhere whether Macgregor is appealing his case. That seems like a very important fact someone is leaving out. If he has the contempt of court charge on appeal, the premies ought to admit that, no? 
Richard G. 02:09, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  edits/rationale 

message: The lead graf stated that Rawat or Divine Light Mission was listed by Margaret Singer in her list of cults. There is no citation or link directly to her list, and for that reason, you can't leave that there. It's one thing to quote people, even another to link to unfounded allegations qualified as such (god knows this article is doing that left, right and center) but you simply cannot say that a published scholary treatise "lists" something without a direct citation to that. I'm sure the highly-motivated anti people can dig that up and restore it. Richard G. 20:39, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I found this: http://www.factnet.org/Margaret_Thaler_Singer/Coming_out_of_the_cults.html --Gary D 23:04, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
Nicely done. Richard G. 00:58, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  add'l edits 

message: I have removed this line from the article - "Ex-premie John Braun estimated his donations to DLM, EV, and Maharaji as $30,000 over 25 years, but has not provided documentation to support this claim." This gives the misleading impression that I have been asked for documentation and have failed to provide it. It also implies that my donations are part of ex-premies' claims of financial irregularity. There is nothing in my article from which this information is taken to suggest this. This also illustrates the lack of goodwill in the person writing this article. The financial allegations against Maharaji are well documented on ex-premie.org, and do not include any mention of my donations. Why were they brought into this article without consulting me? Also, my name was misspelt. -John Brauns 22:35, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: John, sorry to hear that in their zeal, someone used your name. I suggest checking with the other anti people and seeing where that came from. The publication of personal information is highly offensive, don;t you think? Richard G. 01:01, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Richard, it wasn't the lifting of the quote that concerned me, but the fact that the quote had nothing to do with the allegations of financial irregularity against Rawat and his organisations. Of course, it would have been courteous to have asked me first:-) I seriously doubt it was an ex-premie who wrote that considering it was slanted to cast doubt on what I wrote. Publication of personal information is a sensitive issue. In general I do not support it, but, for instance, I have no qualms about publishing details of Prem Rawat's house in Malibu - it is probably more secure than the White House! --John Brauns 11:39, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: ehhh, John I have to confess that I first wrote that you had contributed money to Prem Rawat, which I had copied from your journey on ex-premie. I thought it was important to help the reader to assign probabilities about possible financial exploitation. Then somebody else added "no documentation has been provided." Andries 22:02, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Unauthorised Personal Information 

message: Starting to look very good, and I understand that parallel main articles are being prepared.
John, I really am sorry that one of the anti people put private financial info about you on the page. Call it passion, zeal or just bad judgment. It was there to support the allegation that Rawat is a financial scoundrel.
Thanks also for clearing up (for the most part) who "owns" and who runs the ex'er page. I see references to the forum eight page. Are you also the owner or webmaster of that page?If not, who is? 
Richard G. 01:49, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Richard, which parts of the ownership of ex-premie.org are still not clear to you? I'll be happy to further clarify! No, I do not own Forum 8 and I am not the webmaster. The owner/webmaster and moderators want to remain anonymous as experience has shown that contributing to the forum becomes difficult if others know that you have the power of moderation. --John Brauns 12:11, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  very close.