Talk:Thomas Paine/Archive 1

message: what was your stlye for writing?
:Your kung fu style very good. -Kevin Mitnick
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:He died in Greenwich Village, New York, at 59 Gross Street in New York, New York.
Does this line sound stupid to others? --Sam
Can you make your sources, author, and other information a little more clearer?  Because if people need to list a source for information it makes it very, very hard.
yea i kno this is what im looking for...and its not to be found...nice job on that 1 guys
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Thomas Paine became infatuated with the French Revolution. He believed it would be like the American Revolution. He even wrote a book, The Age of Reason, in defense of the French Revolution. When he saw that the French Revolution resulted in open hostility to Christianity, and the American Revolution resulted in being established in accordance with Christian Principles, Paine recanted his book:<BR>
"I would give worlds, if I had them, if The Age of Reason had never been published. O Lord, help! Stay with me! It is hell to be left alone." 
His last words were:
"I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my Creator, God." - Thomas Paine - Davjohn 02:47, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of that is true; much is not. Paine, of course, would roll over in his grave if heard you assert the American Revolution was based on Christian principles, but we'll leave that aside...  It was Paine's Rights of Man that was written in defense of the early French Revolution; The Age of Reason was an attack on the ways in which religious traditions were used to buttress corrupt monarchical governments.  As the French Revolution veered toward anarchy, he condemned its "avidity to punish" and its abuses of power. He was arrested on 28 December 1793 at the height of the terror and held in the Luxembourg Prision where he spent thirteen months until James Monroe was able to secure his release after the downfall of Robespierre. Paine's detractors have claimed that he recanted The Age of Reason on his deathbed, but it's a made-up story. The words "I have lived an honest and useful life to mankind; my time has been spent in doing good, and I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my creator God." are the last words of his last will and testament, not his actual last words. Robert Ingersoll, in 1877, gave this version of Paine's passing: "he died as he had lived. Some ministers were impolite enough to visit him against his will. Several of them he ordered from his room. A couple of Catholic priests, in all the meekness of hypocrisy, called that they might enjoy the agonies of a dying friend of man. Thomas Paine, rising in his bed, the few embers of expiring life blown into flame by the breath of indignation, had the goodness to curse them both. His physician, who seems to have been a meddling fool, just as the cold hand of death was touching the patriot's heart, whispered in the dull ear of the dying man: "Do you believe, or do you wish to believe, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?" And the reply was: "I have no wish to believe on that subject." These were the last remembered words of Thomas Paine."  The pious lie that Paine recanted anything is first found ten years after his death, in a story perpetrated by a Quaker, Mary Roscoe, afterwards Mary Hinsdale, a servant of Mr. Willet Hicks, who lived near the house where Paine died. When questioned, she would not verify that the recantation had occurred. -- Binky 04:48, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old discussions 

message: Note to self: http://freedom.orlingrabbe.com/lfetimes/roots_paines_radicalism.htm. Neutrality (talk) 14:12, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc note to dead link 

message: An anon deleted these paragraphs, with the edit comment "spurious content, NPOV"
:Paine was a deist and a fervent critic of organized religion, which led to his being socially ostracized for much of his life. He published an early anti-slavery tract and was co-editor of the Pennsylvania Magazine. A republican, Paine became an articulate spokesman for the American independence movement.
:Paine is said to have been tarred and feathered in New Jersey, but no proof exists of this. His unorthodox and unpopular opinions led to the circulation – first by the British (during the time of the American Revolution) and later by his political opponents on both sides of the Atlantic; of scurrilous tales about Paine.
These aren't my paragraphs and I can't speak to the accuracy of everything in them. 
But there's nothing "spurious" or non-neutral about the statements that he was "a deist and a fervent critic of organized religion." I've replaced them with direct quotations from Age of Reason which allow him to make that point in his own words. 
I rather suspect the "early anti-slavery tract" and "co-editor of the Pennsylvania Magazine" are factual too, but don't personally have citations at hand to back these up and reinsert them. I hope someone else will look into this. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:54, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material deleted with inadequate explanation 

message: The title of Paine's book on religion is simply Age of Reason. It is not The Age of Reason. One can refer to it "the Age of Reason," just as St. Augustine wrote a book called Confessions which is often referred to as "the Confessions." The Age of Reason ought to be moved to Age of Reason but I'm not sure how to handle the problem of Age of Reason already being a dab page. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:04, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The title is simply "Age of Reason" 

message: In response to a query on this, a reference librarian at UW-Madison writes:
"According to the title page of the 1794 edition, it's The Age of Reason (you can look at this by searching MadCat for "age of reason"--I looked at an electronic facsimile." Dpbsmith (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No, it isn't... I was wrong. 

message: ====Go away====
*And the sooner the better. Septentrionalis 17:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Straw poll

message: *And the sooner the better. Septentrionalis 17:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Go away

message: Removed anonymously and without comment: "His sister Elizabeth died in infancy." No specific citation, so I hesitate to restore it, but it's been there for a long time, unchallenged, and I strongly suspect it is true. If someone else can restore, with citation, that would be great. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:44, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
:One anon vandalized, the next took out the vandalism without reverting. I don't think this actually constitutes a challenge to the maltreated statement, so thissource should do it (search on Elizabeth). Unless somebody wants me to, I'm not going to bother to find the book cited. Septentrionalis 17:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd removal 

message: Why does this article have such persistent vandalism?  What is it about this article? - Tεxτurε 21:36, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've wondered that too. Some history articles that you wouldn't think would be vandal magnets just seem to be. It's the main reason I've always kept this one on my watchlist. Jonathunder 22:01, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Articles related to the French Revolution all seem to be vandal magnets. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel like I should vandalize it myself or I'm missing out on something!  ("If all your friends jumped off a cliff would you do it too?"  "But, Mommmmm!") - Tεxτurε 21:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: I notice that (like Lafayette and some others) Paine has recently been added to :Category:Freemasons. I question the usefulness of this. Are we going to add as categories all organizations of which people were members? I have to wonder if this is coming from the same person who, a month or so ago, added somewhat conspiratorial comments about Freemasons in this era, then, when challenged, removed his own comments from the talk pages. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:01, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Several of George III's sons were Grand Masters. If we included them in the cat, maybe it would stop being fun. Is this the same user who speculated on Freemasonry in Inalienable rights? Septentrionalis 20:11, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not openly so, but I have to suspect that it is. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:25, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freemason: does it matter? 

message: "As many as half a million copies" was recently changed to "About 120,000 copies". I suspect sources disagree, and multiple estimates, with citation, would be in order. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard 200,000 from the Norton Anthology. -- Chris is me 15:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you have edition and page number, the Norton Anthology would certainly be citable on this. - Jmabel | Talk 01:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many copies 

message: The Mark Steel Lecture: Thomas Paine: Politically passionate Mark Steel takes a look at the eighteenth century idealist Thomas Paine.
I don't know how long the link will last but you might find this interesting - Steel is a comedian but his 'lectures' are usually pretty factually accurate. The Listen again link should be OK for a few days anyway.
Listen again: Monday - The Mark Steel Lecture: Thomas Paine (scroll down to near the bottom of the page)
It's a streaming audio file (actually a half-hour BBC radio programme) and you'll need RealPlayer to listen to it. There's a couple of minutes of the previous programme and some trailers at the beginning of the file so just use fast-forward.
Ian Dunster 14:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Mark Steel Lecture: Thomas Paine 

message: This edit reverses the sense of a sentence, so that it is Paine saying in 1800 that there should be a statue in gold of Napoleon in every city of the world, rather than vice versa. Since either is imaginable, and there is no citation, I don't have any idea which is correct. Does someone have a citation? (In this case, a web citation really won't do, it is too likely to be taken from us.) If not, perhaps we should remove the statement until it is verified. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Since other experienced contributors have been reversing this, and only anonymous IPs keep re-adding it, I will assume that the old version, Napoleon saying there should be a statue of Paine, is the correct one. A citation would still be nice. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't say as I really have a source for this statement, however I have added this page to my watchlist and hence I have taken it upon myself to revert what I have deemed to be vandalism.  Perhaps I have reverted too much information or I have gotten the truth backwards somehow.  However recently there has been some vandalism to the page from anonymous IPs and in general I don't trust them.  So honestly I don't know.  Sorry if I'm not that much help, but I'm really more of a vandal fighter.  -- malo (tlk) (cntrbtns) 06:32, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to remove the claim entirely until someone can provide a source. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: hi - i really think i might be worth mentioning the thomas paine bust at leicester secular hall but i'm unsure of where and how.  any takers? Jammus 23:44, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If this is important enough to belong in the article, it would belong inthe Legacy section. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statue of gold 

message: The "legacy" section states that "There is a museum in New Rochelle, New York, in his honour and a statue of him stands in King Street in Thetford, Norfolk, his place of birth. The statue holds a quill and his book, The Rights Of Man. The book is upside down."  But what about any other monuments or statues or anything.  Any in DC?  It seems he gets a lot less recognition than most of the other "founding fathers."  Generic69 01:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monuments? 

message: I was brought to this article (Thomas Paine) via the article on Lewes, England, which I've noticed contains - in its History section - some (less-than-flattering) details on Paine that are curiously absent from the Paine article itself (especially noticeable considering that more than half of the paragraph on Paine is not about his time in Lewes...).  Because I cannot speak for the accuracy of those comments, I've opted not to make any amendments on the Paine article.  Somebody who does know about this, though, should look into it. Nitjan 06:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lewes Inconsistencies 

message: I don't know if this is the right place to ask this, but I'll try anyway.
I'm writing an article on Thomas Paine and I'm not sure what to include in it, and a lot of the material I find online is not accurate. Most encyclopedia articles too are inaccurate or very tentative in what they say so that they don't show a certain point of view. I am trying to write an article that's very supportive of Paine's views, political, religious and others, and, again, am unsure of what material to use. I was wondering if anyone here would be interested in helping me with this by either posting here or contacting me from my site. I'm the senior editor, if you visit the site and don't figure that out.
Thanks a lot, and I hope someone responds to this!
:You should probably start with what he himself wrote, which is here; for political views, the Rights of Man; for religious views: the Age of Reason.Septentrionalis 05:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just curious... 

message: This article's very US-centric. What about the effect his work had on other revolutionaries such as Wolfe Tone? Njál 03:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you've got something citable to add, please do. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ireland 

message: Thomas Paine is widely quoted as having said, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way".
Did he actually say it?
:For the life of me I can't find it. It seems to be attributed to him but no one bothers to cite which of his writings it came from. --Spark17 21:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote Attribution 

message: Do we really want to remove all of this? There were links to entire book-length biographies online; information on major (paper) biographies of Paine; Edison's essay on Paine. Given that this article almost completely lacks explicit references, some of these were presumably the implicit references, and others were the works one should use to reference it decently. - Jmabel | Talk 05:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your question is entirely fair.  The citing sources style guide appears to suggest sections in the following order:  article text, references, further reading, see also, external links.  I have added a reference section, the unreferenced template tag, and reinstated the further reading section.  JonathanFreed 06:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further reading removed 

message: I have a couple thoughts to contribute. It says in the article, "Paine thought that George Washington had abandoned him, and was to quarrel with him for the rest of his life." That is what Paine thought and he wrote Washington  a letter, which I added to the article. However, did he really quarrel with him for the rest of his life? Also, the article says, "Derided by the public and abandoned by his friends on account of his religious views," though I'm sure his letter to Washington played a good part in his being derided by the public too. --Sparkhurst 06:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The intended sense is, of course, the rest of Washington's life; i.e. until 1799. I don't see how to clarify without being clumsy. As for the other, it is likely to be Federalist historiography. Septentrionalis 20:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "…the rest of Washington's life"?  "…the rest of the latter's life"? - Jmabel | Talk 20:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paine's letter to Washington 

message: Thomas Paine, a radical pamphleteer, is the writer of Boston patriotic song, "Adams and Liberty" (1798), in support of John Adams
I have reason to doubt this. Paine was in France at the time and was critical of the Federalist Party to which Adams belonged. Also, Adams had some disparaging things to say about Paine at the time, such as, "I am willing you should call this the Age of Frivolity as you do, and would not object if you had named it the Age of Folly, Vice, Frenzy, Brutality, Daemons, Buonaparte, Tom Paine, or the Age of the Burning Brand from the Bottomless Pit, or anything but the Age of Reason. I know not whether any man in the world has had more influence on its inhabitants or affairs for the last thirty years than Tom Paine. There can be no severer satyr on the age. For such a mongrel between pig and puppy, begotten by a wild boar on a bitch wolf, never before in any age of the world was suffered by the poltroonery of mankind, to run through such a career of mischief. Call it then the Age of Paine."
If a source refuting my suspicion presents itself, feel free to re-add it. --24.152.194.96 02:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This site says Robert Treat Paine, who is far more likely. Septentrionalis 20:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia - "Adams and Liberty" 

message: I notice that Paine was recently added to :Category:Minarchists. I'm not necessarily saying that is wrong, but there is nothing in the article that really bears it out. - Jmabel | Talk 02:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it's wrong. The reason an article is in a given category should be obvious to readers of the article. If it's not obvious to a major editor, it needs more jusitification in the text (which would involve citing actual sources). Septentrionalis 22:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minarchists 

message: i play chess, and i read a "legend" in a book called 2010: chess oddities that thomas paine was sentenced to guillotine during the french revolution. his wife went to a cafe frequented by the commissioner himself and beat him in a game of chess. she asked for stakes - paine's life - if she won again. she proceeded to defeat robespierre a second time and paine was spared.
any truth to this statement or is it only a legend? Andrewb1 16:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say extremely unlikely. As in "it is extremely unlikely that the moon is made of green cheese", not merely as in "it is extremely unlikely that Elvis Presley is alive and well." - Jmabel | Talk 07:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paine wasn't married at the time. His first wife died in 1760 and he and his second wife were legally separated prior to his move to America in 1774. Paine avoiding the guillotine is attributed to the quick-thinking of his cellmates. --207.69.138.134 08:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  chess legend 

message: Its had to believe someone read anything Paine wrote could claim he supported Liberalism. All Liberal agendas are 180 degs from Common sence.LOL.
Liberals are bitter Enemies of the Rights of man. Liberals do not think people even have the right to educate thier own childern . Liberals think they have more rights to the minds of childern then their actual do parents. Paine would be rolling over in his grave  to be included with a group that thinks they have the right to totaly control the thinking of a population. This artical needs to reflect this.
: I think it depends upon how you define the word Liberal. 
: But it's hard to have a meaningful discussion about this point if you insist upon remaining anonymous. – Agendum 07:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see how someone might sense a socialist bent to this article. --Sparkhurst 23:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liberal POV 

message: Don't blind revert, such edit as this one isn't helpful at all :) . --Cromwells Legacy 18:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't blind revert! 

message: I notice several recent edits that simply remove information. Several of them I will simply fix, but one appears to be a substantive disagreement, so I'd like to discuss it rather than unilaterally revert.
"An advocate of liberalism" was recently changed to "An advocate of republicanism" (and several similar changes were made elsewhere in the article). While he was certainly a republican, he is probably more notable as a liberal: his liberal views encompassed his republicanism. I don't necessarily mind the addition, but the deletion should be restored. Paines views on religion were part and parcel of Enlightenment thinking; his views on natural justice place him firmly in a liberal tradition that arguably began with the School of Salamanca; his views on taxation are encompassed by liberalism, but not by republicanism; his abolitionism represented a deeply liberal position, rejected by most American republicans of the time.
:Actually, gradual emancipation was widely regarded as at least inevitable (and probably desirable) in 1776; Washington, Patrick Henry, and Henry Laurens can be quoted in that sense, and all the northern states enacted it by 1804, most of them earlier. The Constitution, and the cotton gin, produced a retraction, but Paine was in France by then. Septentrionalis 17:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it can be found in this misspelt comment; I do not think it more than partisan spleen. Septentrionalis 17:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In short, it is from someone who does not even know the meaning of the term as it applies to Paine's era. Clearly this should be reversed. - Jmabel | Talk 02:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: We seem to keep going back and forth on his parents' surnames. I seem to remember from school decades ago that they used "Pain", not "Paine"; does someone have something citable one way or the other? - Jmabel | Talk 02:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly don't think it matters that much. There was no such thing as standardisation of spelling of family names until later in the nineteenth century, with the advent of printed directories, etc. Unless you want to go with common usage, in which case the DNB has 'Joseph Paine', whereas the new Oxford DNB (2004-06) has 'Pain'. I think the latter is likely to be the common spelling in less well-educated Norfolk in the early 1700s. But you choose.... – Agendum 11:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parents' surname 

message: I have read that Paine enlisted in the Continental Army and fought against the British. The article does not mention this. --213.140.21.227 (talk) 12:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Participation in the American Revolution 

message: There are quite a few fundamentalist Christians that believe that Thomas Paine recanted his beliefs on his deathbed and converted to Christianity.  Since this is such a wide-spread urban legend, I think maybe it should breifly be mentioned.  Just a thought...
:Any links or sources? --Sparkhurst 23:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/vindication_of_thomas_paine.html Byronarnold 21:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Hitchens does not attempt to "prove false" any claims of recantation.  Rather, on page 140, he says that Paine first told the two ministers, "Let me have none of your Popish stuff.  Get away with you; good morning, good morning."  According to Hitchens, when they asked again, his final reply was "I have no wish to believe on that subject."  Hitchens does not cite his source for this material, which is pretty typical of the book: 145 pages, ~70 citations. TPaineTX (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy of his Recanting 

message: ===Proper place of para on Paine the inventor===
The following paragraph was, in my opinion, misplaced at the end of the Early Life section. I moved it (minus the struck out part) to the bottom of the American Revolution section since the reason he went back to Europe was to seek a patent for his bridge.
Paine was also an inventor, receiving a patent in Europe for the single-span iron bridge. He developed a smokeless candle, and worked with John Fitch on the early development of steam engines. This aptitude for invention, coupled with his originality of thought, found him an advocate more than a century later in Edison who championed Paine and helped rescue him from his relative obscurity.
Any suggestions as to the best placement of this paragraph? --Sparkhurst 23:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paine returned to America during the early stages of the Second Great Awakening and a time of great political partisanship. The Age of Reason gave ample excuse for the religiously devout to hate him and the Federalists attacked him for his ideas of government stated in Common Sense, for his association with the French Revolution, and for his friendship with President Jefferson. Also still fresh in the minds of the public was his Letter to Washington, published six years prior to his return.
--Sparkhurst 00:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Improvement 

message: The following paragraph was, in my opinion, misplaced at the end of the Early Life section. I moved it (minus the struck out part) to the bottom of the American Revolution section since the reason he went back to Europe was to seek a patent for his bridge.
Paine was also an inventor, receiving a patent in Europe for the single-span iron bridge. He developed a smokeless candle, and worked with John Fitch on the early development of steam engines. This aptitude for invention, coupled with his originality of thought, found him an advocate more than a century later in Edison who championed Paine and helped rescue him from his relative obscurity.
Any suggestions as to the best placement of this paragraph? --Sparkhurst 23:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proper place of para on Paine the inventor

message: Obviously more needs to be added to the section as it stands now. Here is a paragraph I quickly wrote which could serve as a start, I suppose.
:Paine returned to America during the early stages of the Second Great Awakening and a time of great political partisanship. The Age of Reason gave ample excuse for the religiously devout to hate him and the Federalists attacked him for his ideas of government stated in Common Sense, for his association with the French Revolution, and for his friendship with President Jefferson. Also still fresh in the minds of the public was his Letter to Washington, published six years prior to his return.
--Sparkhurst 00:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Last years

message: I'm curious - in "The Thomas Paine Reader" (Penguin, 1987) it says on p.27 that Paine's body was washed overboard on Cobbett's voyage home. Nothing about the bones still being in Cobbett's possession. On the wikipedia Cobbett page, it also says something about 'losing' the bones, but then goes with the 'still in his possessions' story. Anyone got any further information on this? 82.6.104.229 14:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paine's remains 

message: I have uploaded a diagram representing the constitution of the United States as proposed by Thomas Paine in Common Sense. I request comments here in the hope of improving it before it is included in the Common Sense article.
-- Mathieugp 03:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have inserted the diagram in the Common Sense article a few minutes ago. Discussions on it should should be conducted in the talk page of that article. -- Mathieugp 20:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diagram 

message: # 1995. Collected Writings, Eric Foner, ed. The Library of America. 
# 1998. Rights of Man, Common Sense, and Other Political Writings, ed. by Mark Philp. Oxford University Press. .
# 1976. Common Sense, Issac Kramnick, ed.
# 1948. The Life and Major Writings of Thomas Paine, 2 vols. Edited by Philip S. Foner.
This section of the bibliography looks dubious to me. Surely the focus shouldn't be on the recent editions of his works, but rather on when they were first published...Zigzig20s 17:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is of course nice to know original publication information, but the bibliography is supposed to be a verification and research tool. Not many people have access to Paine originals and to include standard editions of his works, edited by major scholars in the field who have written on Paine, is the accepted practice in both the scholarly world and on wikipedia. I would prefer that the editors quote from easily accessible versions of Paine (in print) than from archived first editions that only very few people have access. A separate section detailing Paine's works and the first edition publication information might be more appropriate to assuage your concerns. Awadewit 17:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ian Kramnick's book was re-published in 1995 and is popular in university's as a textbook. Eric and Phillip Foner (who i don't think are related but I'm not sure), the former is a contemporary 'expert' of sorts on Paine who has written alot on Paine. Phillip S. Foner's book is (i think) the only comprehensive collection of all of Paine's writings that focuses on "historically contextualizing' Paine's works. We should get rid of the Library database links that the public cannot access and replace them with reliable sources. Phillip Foner's book is in two volumes (I-II). --Savre (talk) 01:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  bibliography 

message: "At 19, Paine became a merchant seaman, serving a short time before returning to Great Britain in April 1759. There he set up a corset shop in Sandwich, Kent. In September of that year, Paine married Elizabth Ollive. His business collapsed soon after. His wife became pregnant, and, following a move to Margate, went into early labor and died along with her child"
+
"On 26 March 1771, at age 36, he married his landlord's daughter, Elizabeth Ollive."
=
Fatal Logic Error
Programmer8 21:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, simply a confusion between his first and his second wife. Emendavi. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I can see what's happened here. People are confusing him going away to sea at 19 with him returning in 1759. There's no express connection other than an undefined "short time", which depending on your POV could be a few days to one or two years... or in this case three (age 34 @ 1771) to five (age 36)...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.63.174.10 (talk) 10:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fatal Logic Error 

message: Born January 1737. In March 1771, he would be 34, not 36. Either the year of marriage or the age cited is incorrect. Unimaginative Username (talk) 00:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see what's happened here. People are confusing him going away to sea at 19 with him returning in 1759. There's no express connection other than an undefined "short time", which depending on your POV could be a few days to one or two years... or in this case three (age 34 @ 1771) to five (age 36)...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.63.174.10 (talk) 10:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, there is a math error 

message: Why is Thomas Paine counted as a Marxist or member of the Marxist school? Would someone mind removing it if there is no answer?Homagetocatalonia 16:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Howard Fast. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marxism 

message: The Thomas Paine Society
http://www.thomaspainesociety.org/
Thank you,
71.80.169.199 21:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link Request for Editor 

message: The first article published in America advocating the emancipation of slaves and the abolition of slavery was written by Paine. Titled "African Slavery in America", it appeared on March 8, 1775 in the Postscript to the Pennsylvania Journal and Weekly Advertiser, more popularly known as The Pennsylvania Magazine, or American Museum.[12]
I'm currently reading Paine: Collected Writings by Eric Foner, and he suggests in the "chronology" section that the March 1775 article condemning slavery was NOT written by Paine.
Foner states that "there is no evidence that Paine wrote [the] essay condemning slavery that appeard in the Pennsylvania Journal in march, although it is often attributed to him.  This statement seems to contradict what is in the article.  --CommonSense101 22:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute over Abolition article 

message: If Paine was born in January 1737, he would be 35 years old in March 1771, not 36.
Psykomakia 17:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he'd be 34. Unimaginative Username (talk) 00:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Age at second marriage 

message: Didn't he?--Ensto233 18:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure did. --Driscoll (talk) 01:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed.--Savre (talk) 01:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He was also a renegade, of his time and age. 193.63.174.10 (talk) 10:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thomas Paine, he lived life in the fast lane 

message: The image at the bottom of the page isn't of Thomas Paine Cottage.  I don't know what it is!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbk (talk • contribs) 18:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thomas Paine Cottage 

message: Ive put a citation tag on this sentence: Paine's proposal is now deemed a form of basic Income Guarantee. The reason is in two parts (1) I understand that the Guaranteed Minimum Income is in the US a specific proposal with specific associations  (2) Paine's actual proposal seems as much a fore-runner of Georgism, of socialism, or of the welfare state.  Anyway, I don't doubt that Guaranteed Minimum Income people claim him as a forerunner but a citation is needed, and the weasel word "deemed" should be lost. And many others claim him as a forerunner, including anarchists.  (I would personally call Paine, taken all for all, a forerunner of social democracy albeit with an individualist streak. What he "would have been" if he lived in our own time is an interesting but finally unanswerable question).
It should be noted too, btw, that Paine was an "illuminist" in that he believed that people were not born with immortal souls but could develop them in life, its in Age of Reason I'll chase up the reference sometime, a view also attributed to Gurdjieff and Lisa Simpson Jeremy (talk) 01:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guaranteed Minimum Income 

message: See for example this Tedickey (talk) 23:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paine vs Godwin 

message: In the blockquote paragraph eulogizing Paine, when I bring up the page I see 
"...but his convictions remained unshaken.YOUR MOM!! He was still a soldier..."
But when I go to edit the page, the YOUR MOM!! doesn't show up in the text?
How can that be?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.173.87.250 (talk) 15:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange insertion? 

message: June 8th 2009 is the 200th anniversary of Tom Paine's death. According to The Economist there is a movement to try and get a Tom Paine
Day established in every State in America. See my blog entry on The Generalist . There are to be celebrations also 
in the UK at Thetford and Lewes (post to come).For Tom Paine's time in Lewes see my blog post Paine in Lewes. It has better picture of Paine's house in Lewes which I would like to replace the existing pic with. Advice needed. This should form a final section of the Wikipedia entry. Happy to draft but
need help creating entry as am newbie. Apologies.
jaymay1--Jaymay1 (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  TOM PAINE DAY USA 

message: There should be a reference for the little bit about his pamphlet being called "Plain truth" before "Common Sense". Here's one:
http://www.biographybase.com/biography/Paine_Thomas.html
(8th paragraph down)
Or is that considered unnecessary?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voxamimae (talk • contribs) 05:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Plain truth" 

message: someone plz fix it nao  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.159.108.88 (talk) 23:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  BROKEN PAGE IS BROKEN 

message: There was a comment on the article's edit page at the end of the 'Early Life' section that goes, "'Saint'? Surely not. You will need a well-documented quote in Thomas Edison's words to support this sentence; otherwise, this sentence should be deleted."  To the commenter I would say that "saint" used here is merely an expression.  The author obviously meant that Edison thought of Paine as a "highly virtuous person", and this does fall within the definition of "saint".  If you still feel that a citation is necessary, the "Paul Israel" note will do the job, which you'll find on the Edison page as Note 23.  Otherwise, please remove the "citation needed" note.  Edison was profoundly influenced by Thomas Paine, and he defended Paine's memory against accusations that he (Paine) was an atheist. Paine was definitely most highly revered by Edison!  .`^) Painediss`cuss (^`.  16:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and added the Paul Israel citation.  And since the word "saint" raises the issue of religious systemic bias, I reworded it to "most highly revered".   .`^) Painediss`cuss (^`.  18:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paine "sainted" by Edison? 

message: To the person who added the following reference:
40. Paine Thomas (The Popular Encyclopedia (Blackie & Sons london Glasgow & Edinburgh 1875)
:As you can see, the reference must be entered a certain way for it to work.  If you'll let me know where in the article you want this to reference, I'll add it for you.  Or you could read this and learn how do it yourself.  Welcome to Wikipedia!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paine Ellsworth (talk • contribs) 02:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding to article "reference" sections 

message: Stay-Maker = someone who makes corsets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corset please can this be explained in the job description, as Stay-maker is not used in common parlance, and should be defined, to enable complete understanding.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.194.132.243 (talk) 06:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea! I polished the internal link stay-maker to stay-maker.  That link now goes to the Wikipedia article, Corsetmaker, where the obsolescence of "stay-maker" is explained.   .`^) Painediss`cuss (^`.  15:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stay-Maker 

message: 13:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I'm just passing through - not a Paine expert - but would like to query this:
"He attended Thetford Grammar School (1744-1749) that selected pupils on ability, at a time when there was no compulsory education". 
Modern grammar schools in UK select pupils, but did they in the olden days? I have had a look round the internet and can't find anything about selecting pupils in those days. Grammar schools apparently taught pupils latin as opposed to the petty schools which provided basic english education. So unless anyone can find a source saying there was selection on ability in grammar schools in 18th century or in Thetford Grammar school I would suggest taking it out.131.111.164.218 (talk) 17:06, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early life/school 

message: Have I missed something or is there little mention about Thomas Paine's connection with Benjamin Franklin  —Preceding unsigned comment added by George2x (talk • contribs) 21:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benjamin Franklin 

message: User:Tedickey has asked for a citation for:-
"Thetford, an important market town and coach stage-post"
I cannot find it expressed in these words, (but if I had it would be plagiarism)
Markets
Thetford had been an extremely important town, home of the monarchs of East Anglia and was seat of a bishopric, but the see had moved to Norwich and the town was in a slow decline by 1737, when Paine was born.
  
Thetford was the oldest Ancient Borough in Norfolk, receiving its Royal charter in 1573, compared to Norwich (1683), Lynn (1684) and Yarmouth in (1703) or nearby Bury St Edmunds (1606).  The royal charter allowed the town to hold markets without needing other authority.
 
According to Alan Crosby (A History of Thetford: Philmore & Co Ltd, Chichester, Sussex 1986 (1st) ) "Thetford retained its status as the main market town for south-west Norfolk, and indeed the gradual decay of smaller markets such as Methwold and East Harling reinforced that particular role" (Crosby p58). 
There are documentary references to markets for "butter, cheese, timber, meat, fish, corn, hay, leather and kiddier (smallwares), and this list is certainly not exhaustive." (Crosby p60) there were at least 3 market places in Thetford the Fyssh market, The Butter market and the Corn market, and in 1739 the Butter market was moved to the Market cross. (Crosby p83-4)
Coaching stage post
Paine pre-dated most turnpike roads in the county, (Thetford to Attleborough 1767, to Newmarket 1768, to Stoke Ferry 1770, to Bury St Edmunds 1792) (Crosby 110-111). 
Long before the turnpike roads were built, Thetford was a major river crossing point.  The pre-Roman Icknield Way passed through via the ford, whilst in Paine's time the main Norwich to London Road crossed via the Christopher Bridge (now the Town Bridge) (Crosby p44)  The town lies about 30 miles from Norwich and 20 from Newmarket, a suitable distance for refreshment and changing horses.
White Hart Street, where Paine lived, was named after one of the coaching inns on this road.  The White Hart no longer exists, but the Bell (1493) and the Kings Head, both coaching inns, are still in White Hart Street, whist a third coaching inn, The Anchor, stands immediately South West of the river, on the site of the earlier Christopher Inn (Crosby p69) 
This is far too much to put in Paine's article, but IMHO can be summarised as "an important market town and coach stage-post"
Arjayay (talk) 17:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds fine (add the footnotes) Tedickey (talk) 10:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "An important market town and coach stage-post" 

message: As this is the bicentenary of Thomas Paine's death, Thetford, his birthplace, and Lewes, where he spent his last formative years before departure to America, are holding festivals.
Is it possible to acknowledge this on this page with the two festival links?
http://www.thomaspaineandlewes.com/
http://www.tompaine200.org.uk/index.html
PPM200 (talk) 08:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two festival links 

message: In the section "rights of man," didn't Wollstonecraft publish a vindication of the rights of women and not man? Please delete this post if I am wrong or if it is corrected.
Max Lipkin
:Well, Max, she actually did both.  A Vindication of the Rights of Men was first in 1790, and then she did A Vindication of the Rights of Woman in 1792.  Isn't it interesting that she used the plural, "men", in the first, then used the singular, "woman", in the second work?   .`^) Paine Ellsworthdiss`cuss (^`.  04:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the difference is not trivial, as the C18 used the singular and plural differently.  In response to the OP, the first work was about the French Revolution, and was part of the so-called Pamphlet War or Revolution Controversy; the second was a rational argument for women's rights. BrainyBabe (talk) 09:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary Wollstonecraft