Talk:Qara Qoyunlu

message: Sultan Muhammad Quli Qutub Shah the founder of the City of Hyderabad, India at the remnants of the Golconda Fort, was a direct descendant of the Turkish Qara Qoyunlu clan. His forefather Mirza Ali Quli Beg had migrated from Multan to the court of the Bahmani Emperor Tajuddin Second at Gulbarga and was appointed the governor of the Telengana Kakatiya province. On the decline and decadence of the Bahmani's of the Deccan, five new sultanates came into being from the five governors of the earstwhile Bahmani Sultanate, of which the Qutubshahi rulers of Hyderabad were renowned. The Qutub Shahis were a mixed blooded people of Turkish origin and a good amount of Multani blood in their veins from migration to the Multan and Sind provinces in India in circa 1500. They followed the Shia Isna-Ashariyya (Faith of the Twelve Imams) of the Shia sect of Muslims. The Qutub Shahi sultanate was put to end by victory of the Grand Mughal Emperor Muhiuddin Muhammad Aurangzeb Aalamgir over the last Qutub Shahi Sultan Abu Al Hassan Taana Shah in 1698 AD. Lutfullah (talk) 08:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qara Qoyunlu descendants had ruled in Hyderabad India by the name of the Qutub Shahi Dynasty 

message: Turcoman is not Turkmen. Both have two different meanings. Turcoman comes from the persian words Turk and Manaad which means like Turks. Turcomans were not Turks but iranians who had the same battle clothes and who copied their style of battle.
:Please, don't mess here with assimilation propaganda of Iran against Azerbaijani Turks. Even today Turkmen are called as Turkoman in Persian.--144.122.124.34 (talk) 19:08, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkoman is not Turkman 

message: They ruled the southern Caucasus, Iraq, and Azerbaijan, I dont know why only Azerbaijan and Iraq were mentioned.Hajji Piruz 23:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rule

message: I suggest removing all tags. But definitely History of Armenia tag is inapplicable because Karakoyunlu dynasty is not even listed in the above mentioned tag list. I suggest that we get rid of all tags for clarity of the article. Atabek 01:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tags

message: In the introduction we read that they established their capital in Herat and they ruled over Musul. I think this sentence needs further explanation for Herat and Musul are not neighbouring cities. In fact bird's flight distance between the two is no less than . Besides the map excludes Herat. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 05:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herat and Musul 

message: Takabeg (talk) 02:27, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: Mehmet Fuat Köprülü wrote as follows:
',,,'bu Türkmen devletindeki bayraklar hakkında elde kâfi derecede vesika yoktur. Yalnız bunların bayraklarında Karakoyunlu aşiretler ittihadının bir alâmeti olarak kara koyun resimleri bulunduğu rivayet edilir. (About flags in this Turkmen (Oghuz) state, sufficient record is not oabained. But it is rumoured that there was the picture of sheep on their flags, as the simbol of the union of the Qara Qoyunlu tribes.)Mehmet Fuat Köprülü, Orhan F. Köprülü, İslâm ve Türk Hukuk Tarihi Araştırmaları ve Vakıf Müessesesi, Akçağ Yayınları, 2005, , p. 171. 
Same thing is written in Türkiye Diyanet Vakfı İslâm Ansiklopedisi, Ancak aşiret geleneklerini de korumuş olan bu Türkmen devletinin bayrakları hakkında elde yeterli belge yoktur.Türkiye Diyanet Vakfı İslâm Ansiklopedisi, Cilt 5, Türkiye Diyanet Vakfı, İslâm Ansiklopedisi Genel Müdürlüğü, 1994, p. 252,  .
In short, there is no proof to verify the historical accuracy of this flag. Takabeg (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag

message: ----
I'm going to WP:BB here and remove it, as it seems to be somewhat fictional. Auvon (talk) 08:15, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I know it redirects from Black Sheep Turks, but that's what they've been know to history in English for centuries.  I think the article should be moved to that name. HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:24, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  the article is not following the English common name for this confederation 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:32, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: This article says the kingdom "broke up due to series of different Armenian revolts", but lists only Aq Qoyunlu as a successor, not any Armenian states. Meanwhile Aq Qoyunlu says the White Sheep leader Uzun Hasan "defeated the Black Sheep Turkoman leader Jahān Shāh in 1467" and seems to imply, without really stating it outright, that the White Sheep absorbed the Black Sheep. Which, if either, is correct? Hairy Dude (talk) 12:36, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fall 

message: There is a bit of an awkward inconsistency between names here. The Aq Qoyunlu article is spelled with 'q' instead of 'k', but here it's the opposite. So that begs the question; which one is it? Ak Koyunlu/Kara Koyunlu or Aq Qoyunlu/Qara Qoyunlu? Which is more WP:COMMON NAME? --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover)  Vaticidalprophet 04:52, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Kara Koyunlu →  – The latter name is generally used in academic sources (often spelled Qara Qoyunlu, Qara-Qoyunlu, Qara Quyunlu, Qaraquyunlu). Also for the sake of consistency, since we have an article spelled Aq Qoyunlu, and not Ak Koyunlu (which is the less known variant).
Some examples;
Isfahan during the Turko-Mongol Period (11th-15th Centuries) (spelled Qara-Qoyunlu)
Power, Politics and Religion in Timurid Iran (spelled Qara Qoyunlu)
Timurids in Transition (spelled Qara Qoyunlu)
The Aqquyunlu Clan, Confederation, Empire (spelled Qaraquyunlu)
Aqquyunlu Turkmen Rulers Facing the Ruins of Takht-i Jamshīd (spelled Qaraquyunlu)
The Crisis of Kingship in Late Medieval Islam (spelled Qara Qoyunlu)
THE AQ-QOYUNLU AND LAND REFORMS (spelled Qara Qoyunlu)
The Timurid Century (spelled Qara Qoyunlu)
The Cambridge History of Iran, vol 6 (spelled Qara Quyunlu)
--HistoryofIran (talk) 12:36, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 4 May 2021 

message: Why is propaganda allowed in this place? It is so laughable and ridiculous.
The "Population"-Section say:
"Since ancient times, the territories occupied by the state of Qara Qoyunlu were inhabited by a predominantly sedentary population - Armenians, Kurds, Arameans and Arabs. They were undoubtedly exploited and greatly oppressed by the Turkomans, but were never displaced or massacred."
This is so funny. First of all: Kurds are not native to anatolia too. They migrated from the zagros-mountains to anatolia most likely around 1000 years ago (they are probably related to gutians).
Arabs also migrated to these lands more than thousand years ago. Why is it an occupation when turkomans arrived and establish a state there thousand years ago? How are modern kurds and arabs native to anatolia? Kurds were not "sedentary" per se. During the sassanian empire kurds 
were not considered a nation, but was (likely) used as an umbrella-term describing iranian-speaking nomads (proof: 
"Unlike the amount of information about the settled people of the Sasanian Empire, there is little about the nomadic/unsettled ones. It is known that they were called "Kurds" by the Sasanians, and that they regularly served the Sasanian military, particularly the Dailamite and Gilani nomads."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_Empire#Urbanism_and_nomadism).
Thus, the whole section is biased and clear-cut propaganda.
_
 
:I checked the original source, seems reliable to me  but the question is, how relevant is that to the article? Opinions? Beshogur (talk) 20:22, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is copied word-for-word from the source, which is plagiarism and not allowed on Wikipedia. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:36, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't say atrocities didn't happen back then, of course it did. But how relevant is it to mention it THIS WAY in a wiki? To me it appears more like a judgement than an objective attempt to give information regarding this state. Furthermore, the original statement does say "since ancient times", but the source doesn't mention it as far as I see. Apparently, someone tries to push an agenda (i.e. turcomans belong to central asia, kurds, armenians so on have allegedly more rights over these lands than turks, which is false). _ 95.89.73.53 (talk) 14:13, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda 

message: I think there should be such a section. Also more mention about the prior events that led to the Battle of Angora. Any addition would be helpful. Beshogur (talk) 10:34, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relations with the Aq Qoyunlu, the Ottomans and the Timurids 

message: Some researchers associate the Oghuz dialect of Qara qoyunlu with the Azerbaijani language.  For example, Faruk Shumer noted that the Eastern Oghuz dialect of Kara-Qoyunlu is called the Azerbaijani language today, while Muhsin Behramnejad noted that he called the Azerbaijani language a legacy inherited from the Kara-Qoyunlu Turkmen tribes.  Sultan Qara qoyunlu 1435-1467 Jahanshah is a generally recognized representative of Azerbaijani poetry.  
I want to share this text, do you have a calm?
Sources : Faruk Sümer, «Kara Koyunlular», I cilt, p. VIII.   ISBN : 9751604354, 9789751604354
M.Behrâmnejâd, «Karakoyunlular, Akkoyunlular: İran ve Anadolu'da Türkmen Hanedanları», p. 14.  ISBN: 6057635280, 9786057635280 Aydın memmedov2000 (talk) 18:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnogenesis of Qaraqoyunlular and Azerbaijanis. 

message: *"Medieval Persia", David Morgan, page 103, generalized comment to avoid the same terminology, since on page 100, it calls them the Qara-Qoyunlu confederation.
*"The Mongol Empire: A Historical Empire" appears to be a generalized term(ie.paraphrasing) instead of a specific term. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:55, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Empire? 

message: Based on what we call Qara Qoyunlu Persianate? The term Persianate is neologism. It is an invented tradition. I don't see any reason this term to attributed not just to Qara Qoyunlu but anyone else. Gronny2 (talk) 04:15, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persianate? 

message: Please cite the correct pages/sources for your additions . Not only are the pages/sources wrong, but the quote has nothing to do with the added text. For example, you added that "The poet Mevlana Tusi served in the palace of Shahbudag, the son of Jahan Shah.", but the quote of the cited source says; "These tribes, which later became known as the Qizilbash tribes... created the states of Kara Koyunlu and Ak Koyunlu, which in the 15th century successively ruled Azerbaijan and most of Iran." --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:34, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cited sources 

message: Yesterday I read Evliya Chalabi's "Sayahatnama", the second volume of the book is about Azerbaijan. Evliya Chalabi visited Azerbaijan and wrote about the cities here. While reading the work, two points caught my attention. The first one is from page 373. He wrote:
(original)"Sonra bu topraklara Azerbaycan şahlarından Karakoyunlu Kara Yusuf Şah sahip oldu."
(in english)"Then Gara Yusif Shah of Garagoyunlu, one of the Shahs of Azerbaijan, took possession of these territories."
In page 399, he wrote:
(original)"Bunlardan Gürcülerin eline girmiştir. Daha sonra Azerbaycan padişahı Uzun Hasan eline girmiştir.
(in english)"These territories passed into the hands of Georgians, and then passed into the hands of the Azerbaijani Padishah Uzun Hasan."
After that, a Persian did not want to accept them and replaced my source from the seventeenth century with a book written in 1986, which is completely sarcastic.No matter how hard these people try, they will never be able to achieve their own desires.Let them not forget that the country they are proud of has been ruled by the Turks for centuries. Maniaq23 (talk) 13:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If you bothered to click the links in your talk page, the governments of Azerbaijan (starting from the Soviets) are notorious for state sponsored historical negationism, so you're probably reading a flawed translation. Anyways, 17th-century sources aren't more reliable per WP:PST and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. And you're showing your xenophobia once more (previous comment ) by referring to me as a "Persian", I have a username. Feel free to read the links this time   . Bonus:  . TLDR of the sources in the links; Azerbaijanis were not an ethnonym let alone a nation during this period, but starting from the Soviets, the governments of Azerbaijan have (unsuccessfully) been trying to change these facts through historical negationism. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:26, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Azerbaijan