Talk:Linear Pottery culture

message: Specifically, these:
*Mallory, J.P. (1997). "Linear Band Ware Culture". Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. Fitzroy Dearborn.
*Renfrew, Colin (1990). Archaeology and Language : The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins. Cambridge University Press. .
My issue is that the article does not claim that the LBK is in anyway related to the steppe pastoral people so either the references seem misleading or the article incomplete. Anyone care to comment?  Dryfee (talk) 02:33, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. Why cite these long out (and up!)dated literature??? 2. In this respect the article is correct and not an "issue".2A02:8108:9640:AC3:20A1:2AE9:9C98:6FA6 (talk) 07:38, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography not mentioned in the article 

message: I suggest all three articles be merged (someone has to do the editing) under a new heading, Linear Ware culture. The is the title used used by James P. Mallory in his article in the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. --FourthAve 04:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: The Germans discovered the culture and named it with their name. Not matter how you look at only that name is going to suffice for them, no matter what the language. It seems obscure to English speakers so they have made it sound better in English. We need to move along here. If that is our decision then we need to go with an English name, overriding the native Germans who also speak English. Let's take 4th avenue's suggestion at the top of the page and get going, hey? There are so many other cultures to be done and conclusions asserted or denied. Thanks so much.Dave 13:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought "Linearbandkeramik" was the proper English?
Just like we use "kindergarten" or "doppelganger" or "wunderkind" and so on ...
-Forever IP
112.198.98.31 (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Shall we move along?

message: This has been a tough one. I have moved  to Linear Band Ware culture simply because this is the name JP Mallory uses in EEIC. For those who contributed to the earlier articles, you are welcome to see what you can do with it. The Linearbandkeramic article was particularly good. --FourthAve 21:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: LBW is the most common name in English afaik. why are we back at "Linear pottery culture"? dab (ᛏ) 21:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I might be biased by my years in a German university and as a practicing archaeologist dealing primarily with LBK, but I prefer 'LBK' or 'Linearbandkeramik.'  I am unfamiliar with 'LBW' (or does Dachmann mean 'Linear Band Ware' by that?)  In all my reading in various languages, I never, to the best of my memory, came across 'Linearbandkeramic,' yet this gets so many hits in Google.  On the other hand, Amazon's search inside gives one Linearbandkeramik and two linear pottery culture hits  in books written in English - and no hits for the others.  Google scholar (much more appropriate than Google for this sort of topic) has Linearbandkeramic: 0, Linearbandkeramik (in English): about 54 (out of a total of about 76, LBK neolithic: 44, linear band ware: 0, Linear pottery culture: 44.  I don't like 'Linear pottery culture' especially if it is in lower case, since it looks like a (vague) descriptive term that could apply to various styles.  The free version of the EB has only the following:  1 hit for 'Linear Pottery culture' (in an article about Dutch neolithic); 2 hits for 'LBK' - one of which is the title article. At the moment, I do not have access to the full EB (book or electronic) nor other archaeological reference works, but I think we (i.e., some-one with a decent European archaeology library) should check these - they're much more meaningful here than what is written on the Internet.  
Europe in the Neolithic : The Creation of New Worlds (Cambridge World Archaeology) (Paperback) by Alasdair W. R. Whittle uses LBK.  Cunliffe's Oxford Illustrated Prehistory of Europe has Linear Pottery culture (with LBK given in parentheses in the index).  211.225.34.182 01:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: Hi, folks. This has got the makings of a good article. First of all, I would like to say that all these names are most inappropriate, as the scholars point out every once in a while. The ware is not linear and does not feature any linear decoration. Neither is it primarily banded, though some of it contains bands. No, appropriateness lies elsewhere, and that is the reason for this extended discussion. But, tradition speaks with a loud voice, as we all fear our fathers. So, we modify tradition until it suits us. I'm totally happy with Linear pottery culture. At least the decoration is incised lines, even though curved or in rectangular shapes. Even the little punctures are often in a line, seen from the side. I would have liked LBK because of its brevity, but Linear Banded Ware Culture or Linearbandkeramikkultur sound totally weird and foreign and make incomprehensible something that ought not to be. We aren't trying to use a specialized lingo designed only for specialists. They don't need any encyclopedia. They have the journals and each other.
So, I'd like to go on from here. I notice the article is interesting but a bit sketchy. Also, there is a major player not on the field, Marija Gimbutas. She only died in person, not in scholarship (which lives forever). I happen to have some of the books so I am going to try to fill this out a bit if that is OK with you. You'll see my edits there.Botteville 00:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Balcanic? The first time I saw this, it took me a long time to realize "Balkan" was meant; this is the only place I've ever enountered the word. I've changed it to the instantly understandable "Balkan". --FourthAve 19:04, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm revisiting this statement briefly. You can't credibly connect the Spanish Civil War, which is the source of any ideas of modern Basque conflicts, with events and circumstances of several thousand years ago in prehistory. An attempt to do so reveals a preoccupation with ethnic conflict. There is no evidence to connect the actual Basque culture with the LBK. Sorry. English itself is only several hundred years old as we understand it. Several thousand years gets us into the dim origin of the very language group. Imagine what a Basque parallel means. There is no conflict and no victor and no need to get excited. OK there were a few palisades and weapons-traumatized skeletons. To turn this into genocide or even any significant conflict at all is inflammatory. In fact as the modern sources cited in the article now have it, the LBK might be the Mesolithics. So, your entire model is totally off the wall. You can't pick out a few relatively short-term events of several thousand years ago about which next to nothing is known and turn them into genocide, invasion, ethnic hate and who knows what. Your sources certainly don't say what YOU say they say. Keep on studying.Dave 13:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additions and Editing

message: I'm not sure, but I think the LBK villages in the Leine valley had fencing around them  (unless I'm mixing this up with Roessen culture).  The nature of the fencing suggests "defense" against wild animals.  On the other hand, Jonas Christensen (“Warfare in the European Neolithic,” Acta Archaeologica 75:142,144 ) discusses a number of enclosed LBK sites, including one that replaced a burned unenclosed site.  He also mentions a site in Austria  with a large number of skeletons with weapon-induced trauma (p. 136).  I'm changing the text.
:Great. Maybe you'd like to help 4th avenue get going on the clearing-house article so we can get this swamp back on a single track? The public prefers roads to swamps.Dave 13:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No defense? 

message: I did the Linear Pottery culture one hoping it would be a merger of the other two. Instead, it shows up as a third alternative. I was new here at the time, still am. I guess things do not just happen, we have to make them happen.
I notice 4th avenue has commanded some space at the top. His suggestion as I read it is to collect and unify all the material under a new name based on the British authority, Mallory. Someone has to do this work and then get rid of the old articles by deleting, I presume, everything but a redirect to the new article. Is that the way it works?
I suggest we get moving on this as there is a lot to say on early Europe and the fans can't say it because of this hold-up. Also, there is a comment above about some new evidence on the way the agriculturalists moved into Europe.
4th avenue, why don't you start to follow through on your excellent idea? I'm coming back on archaeological topics but I want to finish up the climatic periods and the stages of the Baltic, as it may impact this article. Let me say this. If after I do that no one has started the clearing-house article, I will do it, and also change the other articles to redirects. Any comments?Dave 13:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's Get Started

message: Bringing in some sourced information on the disappearance of a Linear Pottery physical type and Linear Pottery genetic features, I removed the following statements for being confusing, unsourced and maybe irrelevant: 
:The explanation of the researchers is that the LBK population was never a very large one, and that they settled in a mosaic pattern, assimilating larger numbers of Mesolithics. They were, so to speak, the heralds of a new way of life adopted by the general population of Europe. 
:Demographic analysis of the human remains, however, indicate a 20-30% rise in the number of 5-19-year-olds in the cemeteries, an event termed the Neolithic Demographic Transition (NDT). It is thought to represent in increase in birth rate. If the genetic evidence is being accurately interpreted, the population that increased cannot have been primarily immigrant.
While the first phrase is according to archeological facts, I consider it wrong and OR to forward such findings as an explanation to the previously raised questions of extinction without proper sourcing. The second phrase seems pretty confused and irrelevant to me, but worse, it seems to supply another unsourced explanation. To relate NDT to new immigrants is not consistent with a continuation of older cultures. Rokus01 17:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you were right to remove the unsourced statements. My problem with this article, even though it was judged better than the previous, is that I did NOT source the statements. Just a few modifications therefore could interrupt the line of thought making the whole thing confusing. In a sense I shot myself in the foot. I'm revisiting the thing now correcting the cause of the problem and trying straighten the whole thing out. We have a photo of the pottery now and in the last year some good articles have come out. I can probably find the articles from which the above statements come but they were intended as evidence that the population was local and not mainly immigrant. I don't really need them now so I am making the critics happier (nothing will ever make THEM happy) by  putting in their articles and there is not going to be room for extensive evidence on the local nature of the population. I agree they come from the Palaeolithic rather than the Neolithic. So thanks for your concern and you did right even though the action took out the core of my argument rendering the whole thing incomprehensible. It is my fault. I should have tied it to the sources. I hope you find this better when I get it done.Dave 11:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of some unsourced statements

message: Now that I have more Wikisavvy I think I will revisit this article as it seems stable. I see it made class B. Why not shoot for Class A! Excelsior.Dave 23:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Later. Getting into this article I see that it has been tampered with badly. The underlying fault is mine. I did not use proper templates or put citations in, opening the article up to disguised vandalism. I'm fixing that.Dave 12:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: PS. I see that someone has been trying to offload material into other new articles. That is just what I would have done. I will go on with this process.Dave 12:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisit

message: Here are some sandia cave biblio items I removed:
* Wesley Bliss, A Chronological Problem Presented by Sandia Cave, New Mexico. American Antiquity, 1940a 5(3):200-201. Ref. Sandia Cave. Correspondence in American Antiquity, 1940b 6(1):77-78.
* The Mystery of Sandia Cave. New Yorker, 71(16):66-83
As far as I can see the cave has nothing whatever to do with this article. It is not mentioned in the article. This looks like irrelevant spam to me.Dave 12:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sandia Cave

message: Someone put a "warning" that Hibben made up data on his biblio item. Check out Hibben at  and elsewhere. As far as I am concerned this allegation is libel. Unless you can back that up with a reference, leave it alone, will you? If in fact anyone finds a reference the best thing to do is take Hibben out. Otherwise I'm not going take him out on YOUR say-so, whoever you are. Since Hibben worked primarily in New Mexico I suspect whoever put the Sandia Cave biblio items in here also concerned himself with Hibben. You know, some Wikipedia articles call some authors of the past prevaricators and fabricators and they have a string of investigations and references to back them up. You have nothing, as far as I can see. Libel is a serious matter. Get out and stay out.Dave 12:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hibben allegation

message: I finished revisitng. Everything, I believe, is cited. Any attempts to change it without reason or without citation or discussion will be reverted by me as vandalism. Formerly I found my words, which were paraphrasing some source, altered to make them say something else, adding total confusion to the article. You can't do that now, or if you do, you better make sure they say what the source says, unless you are going to discard it, in which case I would expect to see your reasoning. I plan to keep my eye on this article every minute.
As to my critics, I say this. Gosh I know that the very best person to write this article would have been a quadruple major in geology, biology, physics and archaeology. He (or she) would have at least one PhD and many years of experience as a field archaeologist, as well as being a published author. Furthermore, he (or she or it) ought to be fluent in Hungarian and all the west Slavic languages as well as in German. He must have read hundreds of books and articles specifically about the LBK.
But let's go a little further. Such an expert must have an audience suitable to his talent. We should all learn Hungarian so we can read all the Hungarian sources. In fact we should all become polyglots so we can assume whatever ethnic identity is convenient at the time. What we need here is a nation of Jason Bournes. English - bah. That is for children and infidels.
Moreover, Wikipedia must start being very careful about who they let edit. I suggest an application process where you are nominated by your congressman and then have to pass a Wiki exam to make sure you are a bona fide expert. Then the president may appoint you to Wikipedia so that you may perform great things for the world, especially for the enemies of English-speakers everywhere, who must be compensated for the fact that we exist.
Until we get this ideal system set up it looks as though we might have to use people like me on a contingency basis and endure the ordinary English-speaking oaf who might need some information, even though he belongs to an inferior culture and is no doubt an inferior person. I apologize to you superiors for the inconvenience of it all. I hope you will not be turned off by Wikipedia and get out of our hair but will hang around just to set us all straight!Dave 18:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisit finished

message: I have removed the following misleading and/or anachronistic images from the article: 
* :File:BreakingFlax.jpeg -- depicts 20th century culture and provides little useful illustration of what flax is or how it was processed circa 5000 BC
* :File:Heckrund3.JPG -- it is misleading to show a 20th century breed of cow and simply label it 'Cow'. It probably looks very different to the kind of animals kept in 5000 BC.
Ycdkwm (talk) 13:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering the history and aim of the Heck cattle breed shown in the picture :File:Heckrund3.JPG I consider it to be at the moment the best educated guess at what the cattle of the time may have looked like. I must admit though there are not too many clues found yet to exactly proove this reconstruction breed really resembles the cattle of the time beyound any doubt. --T.woelk (talk) 18:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading images 

message: Interesting article here: Linear Pottery culture first to drink milk. Also this article needs a map. Jagdfeld (talk) 14:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Milk drinkers

message: The tag has been on since 2010. It isn't discussed anywhere. The article looks pretty clean to me and has a ton of references. I note some relatively minor changes have been made. I conclude that whatever cleanup issues the placer of the tag had have been fixed, so I am taking off the tag. If you see more cleanup issues, please tag or fix specific locations. I do not think the overall tag is relevant.
Past heated editorial discussion (way too heated, and very insulting, not to be tolerated today) leads me to think the placer of the tag may not have had cleanup in mind, but was really having problems with some of the content. That does NOT take a cleanup tag. It would take clarification requests, or some statement saying I had relied too much on one author, or was confusing, or it was unbalanced, or my sources were improper. You need to direct your criticisms at the problem, not put on general tags that have nothing to do with what you think the problem is. State the problem. This time, please discuss the problem.
I remind you that referenced material generally stays unless you are criticising the validity of the references. You can't just take out referenced material because you personally do not agree with the idea. If there are other ideas, put them in! Or, suggest that someone put them in. Discussion, discussion, always discussion. As far as the attacks ad hominem are concerned, I will have no more of those. Previously I responded with sarcasm, but, that is not WP policy, either. WP requires civility and so does good manners. I think you will find me responsive. I go by the sources. You are required to go by them also. If that means there are alternative referenced points of view, by all means let's put them in. It isn't up to us to decide what is right or wrong in the field, only to present what has been decided. I must say, you were attacking the wrong man. You really want to attack the authors, but you must do that with additional sources or show that I was not following the source.
In summary, then, polite discussion please. Tags must be discussed, please. Please place relevant tags at the proper locations. If you want to grade the article, you can do that is discussion. I would appreciate your telling us how to improve it (politely). I see we are up to a class B here. At some point I will probably be back. The goal is to get to a class A. I welcome collaboration.Dave (talk) 17:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: The cleanup tag

message: Hi. I guess "event" is a little vague. However, pastoralism is not agriculture. They don't have the same date. Pastorals were wandering around feeding their animals on wild grasses long before they were able to grow any grasses on their own. So, pastoralism can't be an agricultural event. I'm taking the sentence out, though, for its vagueness. Also, if I have to explain it, it does not belong in the intro, which only introduces topics explained later. But, the topic is adequately covered later, so I wouldn't go out of my way to ensure exactly that sentence got in there. Economy of method.Dave (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, no, pastoralism is a form of agriculture and couldn't exist before the first domestication of animals, which happened around the same time and place as the first domestication of plants. But I don't understand why the tag was there either. joe•roet•c 18:37, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Pastoral or arable?

message: On the wiki for Filipino inventions, it states pottery was first invented in the Philippines. That would mean pottery is only about 30 year old?112.198.98.31 (talk) 18:11, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relation to the Philippines? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: The article currently repeatedly refers to "AVK". Is that another name for this culture? I get that impression, but it is never made clear in the article. Gunnar Larsson (talk) 22:59, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a ref next to the first mention of the term; I looked it up and found:
 "The Middle Neolithic Alföld Linear Pottery Culture (AVK)
 The Middle Neolithic of the Great Hungarian Plain is known by a variety of different names and acronyms in the literature – Alföld Linear Pottery Culture (ALP, or ALPC) in English, Alföldi Vonaldíszes Kerámia (AVK) in Hungarian (see Figure 3). All of these terms attempt to differentiate this Linear Pottery Culture from its Central and Northern European successors, the Linienbandkeramik (LBK) and Stichbandkeramik (SBK)."
In English, it's "Alföld Linear-Decorated Pottery" - AVK). And here is yet another culture from the article: "DVK (Dunatúl Vonaldiszes Kerámia, or Transdanubian Linear Pottery)"--Quisqualis (talk) 13:55, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

text: Thanks for investigating this! I will edit the article as soon as I have more time. Gunnar Larsson (talk) 20:37, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[AVK (aka Alföld culture, ALV, ALP) is the [[Linear_Pottery_culture#Eastern|Eastern linear pottery culture]]

message: "Long houses were gathered into villages of five to eight houses, spaced about 20 m (66 ft) apart, occupying 300–1,250 acres (120–510 ha)." 
"Excavations at Oslonki in Poland revealed a large, fortified settlement (dating to 4300 BC, i.e., Late LBK), covering an area of 4,000 km2 (1,500 sq mi)."
These figures must surely be wrong, but I have no idea what they should be corrected to. Andjamin (talk) 23:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors 

message: The drawing is wrong. In the outskirts of Vienna (Brunn am Gebirge/Wolfholz) a neolithic pre-LBK ('formative phase of LBK, Starcevo culture) settlement has been found by Peter Stadler. After about 200 years it changed to LBK. The settlement was dated 5500 BC.
https://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/peter_stadler
https://www.academia.edu/4626907/Kotova_Nadezhda_Stadler_Peter_2012_2009_-_2_._The_formative_phase_of_the_Linear_Pottery_Culture_and_the_settlement_Brunn_2_in_Lower_Austria._St.Petersburg_Conference_Proceeding_of_the_Russian_Academy_276-282
Goetz48 (talk) 08:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion of neolithic Culture 

message: "... Comparison of the N1a HVSI sequences..." The link is cruelly misleading, because suggesting that this could only be an mtDNA which is wrong. Very bad sentence. I will not edit that because I am tired to work for nothing than being reverted by stupid beginners.2A02:8108:9640:AC3:C582:78E2:E07E:65F1 (talk) 07:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading genetics 

message: " is a major archaeological horizon of the European Neolithic, flourishing c. 5500–4500 BC" - this is cruelly misleading. Checked?2A02:8108:9640:AC3:80B0:AF32:7658:C53A (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading chronology 

message: Regrettably, here of all, a "genetics" paragraph is missing.In contrast, the misnomed map "Linear Pottery" is extremely misleading, confusing everything, in particular pottery in general with Neolithic in contrast to LBK.HJJHolm (talk) 06:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Desiderata