Talk:Haven Institute (Gabriola Island, Canada)/Archive 1

message: : (restore|AfD)
the page was marked for speedy deletion; I was in the process of adding my reasons for why it should be kept (and my willingness to edit the page) on the Talk page when it was suddenly deleted ... all this took only five minutes ... I would like the opportunity to talk about this ... the Haven Institute page is very similar to the Esalen Institute page, ... they are both nontraditional educational institutions ... I would like the chance to edit this page into a form that is acceptable to Wikipedia.  I respectfully request that it be undeleted so I can get to work to do this.  Thanks William Meyer 18:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Haven Institute]]

message: I am editing the Haven Institute webpage, which has been marked for speedy deletion.  I will begin by removing the external links to the Haven.ca webpage in the body of the article.  I expect this is what has prompted the sudden reaction from the editors.
In addition, I will certainly correct anything that will interfere with this article's integrity for Wikipedia.  I am learning as I go ... but I am honest and earnest.  Please do not remove the page until I have had a chance to correct it.
Thanks.
William Meyer 01:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It really isn't the links, it's the whole article and its purpose in WP.  I don't actually determine when it gets deleted.  An admin will take a look at the reasoning on the article's talk page and make a decision from there. Leuko 02:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Haven Institute]]

message: Hello William Meyer.  It seems another administrator has already done so for you.  The reason why the first version of the page was deleted was because the author did not indicate the necessary notability to pass the WP:BIO guideline.  Often subjects are encouraged not to write about themselves due to the difficulty of referring to their biography in a third person style.  Thank you for rewriting it.  At least now it meets the standards much better than its previous state.  If you have any other questions feel free to contact me at my talk page again.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 17:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: Deletion of Jock McKeen Page 

message: Please do not remove speedy deletion tags from articles. If you do not believe the article deserves to be deleted, then please do the following:
# Place   on the page. Please do not remove any existing speedy deletion tag(s).
# Make your case on the article's .
Administrators will look at your reasoning before deciding what to do with the article. Thank you.   Leuko 01:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  March 2007 

message: I am editing the Haven Institute webpage, which has been marked for speedy deletion.  I will begin by removing the external links to the Haven.ca webpage in the body of the article.  I expect this is what has prompted the sudden reaction from the editors.
In addition, I will certainly correct anything that will interfere with this article's integrity for Wikipedia.  I am learning as I go ... but I am honest and earnest.  Please do not remove the page until I have had a chance to correct it.
Thanks.
William Meyer 01:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It really isn't the links, it's the whole article and its purpose in WP.  I don't actually determine when it gets deleted.  An admin will take a look at the reasoning on the article's talk page and make a decision from there. Leuko 02:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Haven Institute]]Deletion

message: I have pasted the following sections from the Talk:Haven Institute page to keep the communication trail clear in my Talk page.William Meyer 07:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Re:[[Haven Institute]]REASON FOR REQUEST TO UNDELETE

message: I have put in a request for a DELETION REVIEW for the Haven Institute page.  
I am relieved that I can now access this Talk:Haven Institute page.  When the Haven Institute page was deleted by speedy deletion, the Talk page vanished for me, and I could not access it.
The Haven Institute is an alternative educational institution that has existed since 1983.  It has a good reputation, and attracts students from around the world.  It is roughly similar to Esalen Institute in that it is a nontraditional school that utilizes seminars and group process in its teaching environment.  Since Esalen is listed in Wikipedia, I believe it is appropriate that the Haven Institute also be included.  
The reason for the speedy deletion was stated (on the banner that I was able to quickly read before the deletion occured) to be "Blatant Advertising."  My intent in writing this article was certainly not to "promote a company, product, group, service, or person" ... Indeed the Haven Institute is owned and operated by a nonprofit society, whose aims are educational in nature.  So, this is not a profit group ... it is an organization dedicated to promoting nontraditional educational approaches in a responsible and respectful manner.  I believe that their undertaking is worthy, and merits inclusion in Wikipedia.
Please consider my request, and give me the chance to craft the article within Wikipedia's guidelines.  I want to "play ball" ... I just want the chance to finish the job that I started (I have hours into this process at this point).  Thanks for considering.  Sincerely William Meyer 07:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: from [[Talk:Haven Institute]]

message: Your blank page is at the above link. Please take care of WP:N and try to include as many sources as possible as well as writing the article in a encyclopedic tone without bias. Good luck and feel free to ask for another pair of eyes whenever you feel like it. 
Spartaz Humbug! 18:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad to see a lot of references but can you tell me whether you have any conflicts of interest here? You clearly know the subject very well. For such a long article, and for the others you have written you need to include citations in the text to show where the information comes from. This is a good way to make sure that information is properly sourced because if you can't cite it, you can't include it.  Also, I think for a marginally notable institution, this is a very long article and citations will be helpful to you to get the balance right. Remember that this article has already been deleted because of concerns that it may be advertising so its important to get this nailed down before you try and restore this to the main space. Let me know when you have made the citations and I'll have another look and make some pratical suggestions for any required changes. Finally, how specialist are the references? Are the national or local? That's important for verifying notability. The more widespead the coverage the better. I hope this helps - this is much improved and definately on the right path. --Spartaz Humbug! 19:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:William Meyer/Haven Institute]]

message: I have a draft done now that I think might be okay.
My questions:
* 1. How is the length?  I could shorten  the section "The Haven Institute History" (or remove it completely) if you think the article is still too long.
* 2. Are the citations correctly done, and appropriate for this page?
* 3. Any other suggestions?
Thank you for handholding me through this.  William Meyer 18:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To Humbug re: William Meyer/Haven Institute

message: I have pasted the following sections from the Talk:Haven Institute page to keep the communication trail clear in my Talk page.William Meyer 07:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasons for Request to Undelete

message: I have put in a request for a DELETION REVIEW for the Haven Institute page.  
I am relieved that I can now access this Talk:Haven Institute page.  When the Haven Institute page was deleted by speedy deletion, the Talk page vanished for me, and I could not access it.
The Haven Institute is an alternative educational institution that has existed since 1983.  It has a good reputation, and attracts students from around the world.  It is roughly similar to Esalen Institute in that it is a nontraditional school that utilizes seminars and group process in its teaching environment.  Since Esalen is listed in Wikipedia, I believe it is appropriate that the Haven Institute also be included.  
The reason for the speedy deletion was stated (on the banner that I was able to quickly read before the deletion occured) to be "Blatant Advertising."  My intent in writing this article was certainly not to "promote a company, product, group, service, or person" ... Indeed the Haven Institute is owned and operated by a nonprofit society, whose aims are educational in nature.  So, this is not a profit group ... it is an organization dedicated to promoting nontraditional educational approaches in a responsible and respectful manner.  I believe that their undertaking is worthy, and merits inclusion in Wikipedia.
Please consider my request, and give me the chance to craft the article within Wikipedia's guidelines.  I want to "play ball" ... I just want the chance to finish the job that I started (I have hours into this process at this point).  Thanks for considering.  Sincerely William Meyer 07:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: from [[Talk:Haven Institute]]

message: Your blank page is at the above link. Please take care of WP:N and try to include as many sources as possible as well as writing the article in a encyclopedic tone without bias. Good luck and feel free to ask for another pair of eyes whenever you feel like it. 
Spartaz Humbug! 18:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad to see a lot of references but can you tell me whether you have any conflicts of interest here? You clearly know the subject very well. For such a long article, and for the others you have written you need to include citations in the text to show where the information comes from. This is a good way to make sure that information is properly sourced because if you can't cite it, you can't include it.  Also, I think for a marginally notable institution, this is a very long article and citations will be helpful to you to get the balance right. Remember that this article has already been deleted because of concerns that it may be advertising so its important to get this nailed down before you try and restore this to the main space. Let me know when you have made the citations and I'll have another look and make some pratical suggestions for any required changes. Finally, how specialist are the references? Are the national or local? That's important for verifying notability. The more widespead the coverage the better. I hope this helps - this is much improved and definately on the right path. --Spartaz Humbug! 19:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:William Meyer/Haven Institute]]

message: ::Thanks for your reply.  Glad to hear you think I'm on the right track.
:: I do not have any conflicts of interest. I am not involved in this Institute other than to write about it.  I do know the people involved reasonably well however.
:: I thought I had included citations in the text in my articles.  But apparently I have not done this to your satisfaction.  Please show me a place where I am derelict here, and I'll fix it.  I have tried to follow Harvard Referencing, and then add a (Smith 2003) indicator in the body of the text that refers to a 2003 article or book by Smith.  What am I missing?
::You mention this is a very long article.  Good information for me.  I will cut it down.
:: I'll let you know when I have cut down the article and made the citations so that you can offer any further suggestions.
:: How specialist are the references?  Most are reports from journalists who have done articles on The Haven Institute, in newspapers and magazines.
:: Two articles are from Gabriola Island's newspaper; one more is from Nanaimo newspaper (nearby) and three are from Vancouver/Victoria publications .... both cities are in the same province, but at quite a distance (their coverage is province-wide).  Finally, two articles are from a publication in Taipei, Taiwan to back up the international coverage.
William Meyer 21:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to come back to this another day as I am busy with something else at the moment. I hope that is OK. {you can reply here btw I have the page watchlisted). --Spartaz Humbug! 21:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Spartaz

message: Perhaps you are too busy to deal with my request for help ... if so, please just say so, and I'll seek help elsewhere. I have redone the Haven Institute page, and I would appreciate your eyes on it to see if it looks acceptable.
: 1. Is it ready to resubmit for use on the Wiki pages?
: 2. If it is ready, how do I go about putting it on the regular pages?  Just do it?  Or do I need to ask permission of the review committee that reviewed the original pages that were deleted?
: 3. Any other comments or suggestions?
:I think the references on the article are a little weak and they are rather dated. Is there nothing more recent you can cite? Otherwise you have done a good job with the rewrite. I think its still a work in progress but we have no deadline for getting this thing done. :-) If you wanted to have it restored to mainspace, I would suggest that you took it back to DRV with a request for consideration. You could just restore it but there is a danger of it being speedied again as recreated content - ideally you need a few more recent sources if you wanted to just restore it without going through DRV. Good luck and let me know what you decide to do. --Spartaz Humbug! 22:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To --[[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup>

message: I have added more recent references, and cited them in the text.  I believe I have satisfied your recent suggestion.
How does this look now?  Is it ready for mainspace now?
William Meyer 17:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To [[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]] -- References Enhanced and Updated

message: Do you think you are ready to try and have this restored in main space? There are lots of references now. If so, I'll list it for you at DRV. --Spartaz Humbug! 19:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DRV 

message: Following talk at the talk page of the admin who initially deleted this as an speedt advert, there were no objections to restoring this to main space after work by the main editor to fix the article. I forgot the move summary. Sorry. --Spartaz Humbug! 17:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to mainspace 

message: I have cleaned up the article, and established the Harvard reference style for footnotes.  William Meyer (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup of Haven Institute Page

message: To Sticky Parkin:
You wrote: 
delete is unencyclopedic and unnecessary due to their individual articles and separate article about the Haven Institute that they founded.  
Not notable as a collective entity.  Plus the pic is painful.  Sorry WM.:) Sticky 
: I yield ... you are intent upon deleting this page.  I will not resist this further.
: Will you put a redirect so that other links to Wong and McKeen will be redirected to Haven Institute? Please advise. William Meyer (talk) 21:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just underdid the other couple of links and put "Bennet Wong and Jock McKeen instead, so it should be fine.:) Sticky Parkin 21:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wong and McKeen]] Decisions

message: :I have completed a major editing of the this article to respond to the criticisms from the editors, who are discussing deletion or merging of this article.
:I believe I have addressed the criticisms of the different editors who have written about this article, and request that this article be retained, or merged with the Haven Institute article. William Meyer (talk) 18:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just removed it.  What are you going to work on next?  Hope you stick around.:)  My first article was deleted too. Sticky Parkin 03:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your prompt reply, and for your encouragement.  I'm not sure what I will work on next ... I see lots of pages that need tweaks, and I'll concentrate on that for a while. William Meyer (talk) 05:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wong and McKeen]] Major Editing Completed

message: To Sticky Parkin:
The Wong and McKeen page has now been deleted.  The "merge" tag is still on the Haven Institute page.  Can I remove this tag?  Or do you want to do it?  William Meyer (talk) 03:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just removed it.  What are you going to work on next?  Hope you stick around.:)  My first article was deleted too. Sticky Parkin 03:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your prompt reply, and for your encouragement.  I'm not sure what I will work on next ... I see lots of pages that need tweaks, and I'll concentrate on that for a while. William Meyer (talk) 05:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Haven Institute]] Merge Tag 

message: To: DGG (talk)
:*I have given close attention to all three articles now, to address each item you suggested to improve these articles. In particular, I have upgraded the references and footnotes for Bennet Wong and Jock McKeen and taken into consideration your previous feedback.
:*Have I satisfactorily addressed the issues you outlined? Do you have further recommendations to improve the articles? What is next?
:*Please note the trailer on the Haven article regarding "Category:Items to be merged" and "Category:Articles to be merged{{#if:"... I think it is a partially removed tag ... but I have left it, not knowing if it should be there or not.  Should this be there?
:*I look forward to your feedback.  Thanks. William Meyer (talk) 00:36, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Improving [[Bennet Wong]], [[Jock McKeen]] and [[Haven Institute]]