Talk:Bourke engine

message: It's working to  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.165.160.204 (talk) 12:28, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

message: User:Biker Biker, what would you recommend as the best way to advise people that the book "Bourke Engine Documentary" is still actually available, best way to find it is "online"?  Lkcl (talk) 22:24, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If the documentary mentions a point that is referred to in the article, you could cite the documentary as a reference. Also if you think the documentary is notable, I'm sure you can find an appropriate place in the article to mention it.War (talk) 21:33, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, no, notability is not 'felt' it is established. The documentary is not a reliable secondary source, it was made and sold by the miraculous device's original promoter, and is still being sold by the commercial promoter. I don't actually have a problem with it being used to source claims about the unfeasible fabrication, I do have great problems with it being used as a source for definitive statements concerning physics and chemistry and the like. However, wiki policy is that primary sources are generally frowned upon, so my relatively lax interpretation could be struck down. If there is a legal free copy of the documentary then add it to the external links or see also sections.Greglocock (talk) 23:34, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: I have noticed that there is a lot of talk about the Bourke engine being a hydrogen
detonation engine however there is not one instance cited of one ever being run on 
hydrogen. This doesn't meet wiki standards as far as I under stand them.  DieselDude (talk) 17:51, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Hydrogen Detonation misunderstanding: article clarification needed

message: 1 " A normal engine would require a camshaft of infinite length to achieve the same amount of time at TDC as a Bourke Engine." Camshaft length has nothing to do with dwell times. Greglocock (talk) 21:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, but then I have a cruel sense of humour, and not much tolerance for pontificating idiots.Greglocock (talk) 00:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: User adding gibberish to article

message: The article repeatedly confuses the possibility of operating the fabulous construct on hydrogen as a fuel, with more general claims that it uses H-O burning when running on conventional fuels. eg "power of hydrogen-oxygen detonation instead of using the more progressive, slower carbon-oxygen burn normally found in Otto_engine". As any IC book worth reading points out, most of the power in an Otto engine burning hydrocarbons is generated from the HO burn. I will remove the ridiculous comparisons in two days unless authoritative evidence can be found otherwise. Greglocock (talk) 20:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: More gibberish

message: The only configuration I can see that gives perfect balance with 4 cylinders (ie 2 piston units) is to use 2 crankshafts, with the 4 cylinders on a common axis. This result is trivial and would be true for any 4 cylinder engine arranged like that. the width of the engine is absurd, the difficulty of tying the two cranks together is non trivial. I know it can be done, but any notion of simplicity and low weight will have long left the building. An 8 cylinder single crank version would be much more elegant. Greglocock (talk) 20:29, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Perfect balance

message: * bourke documentary, p38 para 8 "bourke cycle chemistry defined" appears to be a mistake.  yes detonation is all over at TDC, resulting in torque over 135 deg, but it's *not* linear (as claimed by bourke) due to the expansion itself: the (approximate) linearisation is due to the reverse-lever effect of the scotch yoke, which at angles close after TDC reduces the torque; at 90 degrees between TDC and BDC, just when the depressurisation is 1/2 way run out, the momentum imparted is zero, and at small angles off of BDC the levering-effect is at its largest.  by BDC itself, when the depressurisation is at its smallest, the reverse-lever effect has reached infinite, but that's ok because a few degrees prior, the exhaust ports lined up, anyway.  argh, complicated! Lkcl (talk) 01:03, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  TODO 

message: The Bourke Engine Documentary is referred to frequently in this article by one contributor, yet it does not have an ISBN. As such I can only concluded that it is a self-published book and should not therefore be considered a reliable source. I would challenge the validity of any information in this article that is referenced using that source and support its removal, especially given the aggressive nature of the contributor towards those trying to bring a decent standard of editing and referencing to the article. --Biker Biker (talk) 09:45, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a complete P.O.S. and I suggest the article is reverted back to a last-known-good version before all this original research was added. --Biker Biker (talk) 06:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research and self-published-sources.  

message: No, in the absence of combustion the piston motion still stops briefly at TDC. yet another example of basic misunderstanding by the editor in question. Greglocock (talk) 06:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Combustion forces stop the piston claim

message: Measured flame speed in gasoline engines is around 50 fps. Flame speed of hydrogen is around 10 fps, source added to article. This makes further nonsesne of the claimed combustion chemistry. Unless good cites are found (not primary sources) for the H-O chemistry stuff (you won't be able to, it is utter nonsense) then i will remove all of that garbage in say one weeks time. IC engines burning gasoline have always burned the hydrogen, just like a Bourke engine. They do not routinely run in det, that is the difference, you could usefully find data for flame speeds in detonation, I'm guessing around mach 1. I suspect the overall chemical reactions (and hence energy produced) are virtually identical, the pathways may be different. Incidentally low fuel air ratios (lean mixtures) reduce flame speeds. Greglocock (talk) 21:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flame speed 

message: Here's my guess. The Bourke engine operating on a hydrocarbon fual operates almost exactly like a conventional crankcase charged 2 stroke engine, except that it relies on detonation at TDC for some, perhaps even much, of its power. Combustion is initiated very early and proceeds normally up until det occurs. Early ignition is required because the mixture is lean which reduces flame speeds (standard result), and because he wants det of the endgas to occur at TDC. Here's a standard description of detonation in normal engines, I'm sure it applies to bourke
http://books.google.com/books?id=MFx4VRErHNoC&pg=PA585&lpg=PA585&dq=942036+hydrogen&source=bl&ots=fkc9J26Lph&sig=kSnl9nX5W5YZ_4kJV_X87PBxSbI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x477ToHFAciUgwen9a2MAg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hydrogen%20flame%20speed&f=false
All the waffle abut H-O and emissions and so on is misdirection. Here's a useful kiddy level summary that may help on the NOx stuff, and hydrogen in general http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf
The performance in terms of torque/capacity, and sfc, is probably about that of a conventional non supercharged 2 stroke. The power output follows from the attainable rpm, given the cumbersome nature of a scotch yoke I'd be surprised if it was exceptional; but that is a decision that has to be made with respect to durability.
The claimed virtues of the scotch yoke are again misdirection, he needed a crosshead piston so as to allow crankcase charging without using oil in the fuel. A scotch yoke is a relatively compact way of achieving this.
There are several additional sources of inefficiency in the Bourke engine's configuration, chiefly some horrible pumping losses due to the crankcase charging system.
Almost all of these extravagant performance claims could be tested by an independent engine test lab, something that neither Bourke nor Richards has ever permitted. 
This is mostly OR, hence not suitable for the article, but is my best guess from 30 years working as an engineer on engines (on and off) and several years writing on this and other related wiki articles. Greglocock (talk) 22:59, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The real story

message: A triple bearing is a plain bearing with additional concentric rotating bearing shells inside the oil gap. Double bearings aka floating shel bearings  were relatively common on hotted up engines in the 30s http://www.reds-headers.com/html/red_s_engine_talk_7.html. A slipper bearing is also a thing that looks like a slipper on an ankle joint, and slides along a flat or curved  surface http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3713791.pdf for example. My guess is that either Bourke or the editor is confusing Bourke's name for a three element rotating bearing with the slipper bearing also used on a scotch yoke. Greglocock (talk) 00:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  triple slipper confusion 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Comparing the criticism section at the end with this webpage: http://everything.explained.today/Bourke_engine/ appears to be pretty much verbatim.  Is that acceptable in Wikipedia?  I'm trying to start a _storm, just wondering where to draw the line between contributions based on a given reference and wholesale duplication of that reference.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.141.193.30 (talk) 09:21, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly has been copied, but in the other direction. They've copied the wiki page without attributions. That is quite common, in both senses of the word. Greglocock (talk) 10:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, there is attribution at the bottom of the copied page, linking back to here. Kuru (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, my comment edited accordingly. Greglocock (talk) 23:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Has this section been copied? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: http://a.moirier.free.fr/Moteur/Documentation/Performance%20testing%20a%2030%20cubic%20inch%20bourke%20engine.pdf
This was published in the  March 1980 edition of Sport Aviation, the EAA's comic. http://www.cozybuilders.org/ref_info/sportavi80.html
Here's the contents page scanned  http://larrysbasement.com/product/eaa-sport-aviation-enthusiast-magazine-march-1980/l-0605-3-jpg/
OK, let's play whackamole with the fanbois! We've got data, they've got PR.
Greglocock (talk) 00:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kirk - a new source 

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thread_title:  External links modified