Talk:Dari/Archive 1

message: The new article posted about the Dari language contains lots of contradictions and lots of incorrect information. It seems to me that the writer is backed by his personal views of todays political situations between Afghanistan and Iran. 
Here are my comments:
1. In the section of History, the 2nd paragraph, the author says that there's no difference between Aryan, Iranian and Persian. However, Persian is a mixed Elam-Aryan civilisation, while Aryan and Iranian can be considered the same. Iran, the current country, was always known as Persia or Fârs. It was in 1935 that Reza Shah Pahlawi changed the name of Persia to Iran, by the support of Nazi regime in Germany. 
Ariana or Aryana is general name used for all the regions of Transoxiana (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan), Persia (Iran), Khorasan (Afghanistan) and parts of Pakistan (northern parts of Sindh river). By changing the name of Persia to Iran, it doesn't make it to become the same Great and Ancient Ariana, however today's Iran is part of the Great Ariana, as Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are parts of Ariana. No matter the word "Iran" was initially used during the Sassanids.
2. In the section of History, 3rd paragraph (Persian originated in Persis) and 5th paragraph (Dari, a spoken language of Parthia..... Dari spread to the east and Transoxiana regions). This is the bigest error and incorrect information posted. 
In fact, the Persian language (if we consider it both as Farsi and Dari) originated and developed in Transoxiana (north of Oxus river) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan regions), and then emerged to the west, to Persia (Iran) during or just before the Sasanids. And during the ruling of Parthians, it was Aramaic,Pahlavi and Parthi/Parti languages common in Persia, NOT Dari. Here are the sources from both Iranian and Afghan historians and researchers:
- “The language of Dari has almost a two thousand-year-old history. It came into being in Khorasan before the Islamic period. It was at first the native language of Khorasanis (people of Khorasan) and then extended to the west (modern Iran). ” History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.22)
- “Dari emerged for the first time in the East (Khorasan), while at that time the language of Persians (Iranians) was Pahlawi. At that period in Iran, all religious and scientific works were written in Pahlawi, even the poems that were narrated in Iran, Hamadan, Azerbaijan and Tabaristan (today Mazandaran) were in Pahlawi and Tabari languages. However, all old Farsi poems which were narrated in Khorasan by Hanzala Badgheesi, Mohammad Sakazi and Busam-gurd Khareji were written in fluent Dari language.” Ariana Encyclopaedia (Vol.5), Encyclopaedia Association of Afghanistan, 1348 Kabul (p.400)
- “Until the fourth Hijri century (9th BCE), Dari was associated uniquely to Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana and it was not common in Iran, even a single poem or book was not found to be written in Dari in Iran.” [History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.24)]  “…and after the 5th Hijri century, Dari extended to the Persian territories.” [“Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website]
- Dr. Said Nafisi, professor in the University of Tehran, writes: “According to some very clear proofs, it is evident that Dari came into being in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana, and then extended to the Iranian regions, which were not its local territories.” (Reporting from: “Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website)
- According to Prof. Shahrestani, Dari was formed during the rule of Behman Ibn-e Espandyar, one of the Kavi (Persian: Kayani) Kings in Balkh, who ruled probably before the Common Era. In several old books, it is mentioned that “At the period of Behman’s ruling, son of Espandyar, people came from different regions to his court and did not understand each others’ languages. Therefore, he ordered the scholars to make a fluent Farsi language, and named it Dari.”
- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, famous Iranian Poet, writes in his book Sabk Shunasi (Vol.1): “Some people say that Dari is the same old Persian, others say that Dari is a dialect of the Soghdi language common in the north of Amu Darya and Samarqand. While others relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-e Muqaffa believe that Dari was the language of the Capital [city]. It was the most fluent language of the Sassanid period and contained a large number of Eastern words, especially those of Balkh.” He then continues and admits that: “As the people of Samarqand and Bukhara (regions in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) wrote text and poetry books in Dari after Islam and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) also narrated their poems in this language, Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of the people of Bukhara and Balkh.”
- Mr. Jalal Matini, chief editor of the magazine "Iran-Shenasi" and former director of Mashad's University in Iran, writes: "The original teritory of Persian is Transoxiana..... Persian was the language of Transoxiana (Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) in the 3rd and 4th Hijri centuries. It then emerged to Iran and Indian subcontenent during 8 and 9 centuries." (Iranshenasi Magazine, Number 2, Year 2002, Iranshenasi.net)
So according to all Iranian and Afghan scholars, Persian (Farsi or Dari) came into existence in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana almost 2000 years ago and then migrated to the west, to Persia. 
3. In the section of History, 4th paragaraph, a great error in reporting the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa. According to this article, Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa pronounced Dari as the main language of Fahla, which is reported totally incorrect. It was Pahlavi the language of Pahla, not Dari.
Here's the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa in his book Al-Fehrest: “Pahlawi (old Farsi) refers to Pahla, which is the name of five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari is the language of citizens and that of Court (King’s court). It is one of the languages of Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) and eastern regions; the language style of Balkh (city in northern Afghanistan) has more influence on it. While Parsi (Farsi) is the language of Zoroastrian religious leaders, and the people of Persia (Iran) spoke in this language.” 
Here's the source: "History of the Philosophical sciences of Iran" (tarikh wa uloom-e falsafa-e irani), Abdul Rafi Haqiqat, Komash Publications, 1372 Tehran, page 39
There are other incorrect information posted about Arabic's influence on Dari and Farsi, as well as about the origin of the Dari language. For a detailed information, please CHECK THIS
----
It has been the third time that the External Link which I add to the main page of the article is being removed by the user named User:Tajik. He wrote in the comments that the link did not work, however there is neither any problem with the link, nor any violation with the copyright. The main article posted about Dari contains lots of incorrect and inaccurate information, so I did not try to modify it. However, I provided that link under the External Links area. It would be better to defend his point of views in here, in discussion, instead of removing the link. Thank you
:: The main article is based on 1st hand information from authoritative sources, such as Encyclopaedia of Islam or Encyclopaedia Iranica. You are pushing for a wrong pseudo-scientific version which has no support and is based on pure assumptions. You use wrong quotations and base most of your thesis on works written by known pseudo-scientists and people who openly declare their hate against Iran, Persians, and so on.
:: Here is the article of the Iranica - an authroitative source written by a real expert and based on historical documents. Your "blog" is NOT a scientific page and has no place in here. Please stop messing up the article or I will report you to admins. Tājik 15:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments on the new Article posted 

message: The main article has become much more accurate. However, there exists only one major contradition which needs to be modified. Here, I am pointing out that point:
1. First let me copy the Persian translated text of Ibn-Muqaffa: 
پهلوی منسوب است به پهله که نام پنچ شهر است: اصفهان، ری، همدان، ماه نهاوند و آذربایجان. و اما دری زبان شهر نشینان بود و درباریان با آن سخن می گفتند و منسوب به دربار پادشاهی است و از میان زبان های اهل خراسان و مشرق، زبان مردم بلخ در آن بیشتر بود. اما پارسی، زبان مؤیدان (روحانیون زردتشتی)  بود که در پارس مردم به آن دین معتقد بودند
So, Pahlavi the language of Pahla (Medes), Dari the language of Court and the Citizens of Khorasan (eastern Persia), and Parsi the language of Mobidan (Zoroastrian religious) in Persia.
But in the article it has been written: "In everyday conversation Dari was used and Parsi was the written and scholarly language"......"The spoken language of Dari however remained intact."  I think this point is in contradicion both with the statements of Muqaffa and with the contents of the main article i.e. "Dari is the language of the Sassanids Court and the official Zoroastrian priesthood language."......"Dari emerged as the spoken language of Persian courts of Sassanids."  But in fact:
* Dari was the official language of Sassanids Court
* Dari was the language (spoken and official) of Eastern Persia (Khorasan) i.e. Balkh, according to Ibn Muqaffa (Source Encyclopedia Iranica G. LINK)
* Parsi the language (spoken and official) of Mobidan or Zoroastrian leaders
* Dari was the spoken language ONLY in the eastern Persia (Khorasan) and NOT all over Persia, because it was Parsi the spoken and official language of Zoroastrians in Persia
* Parsi was NOT the official language of the Sassanid Court (it was Dari, as a general agreement and according to many sources) but only the official language of Zoroastrians.
2. Not only Parsi/Farsi got affected by Arabic, but Dari did either. Both Farsi and Dari contain equal combination of Arabic vocabulary. The reason that Dari reserved its pure and original language style and structure, is that in the recent times Dari speaking people (Khorasanis) did not have any direct interaction with other foreign languages, which was because of the Political situations in Afghanistan. (Although the language of Tajikistan severly got affected) As for Farsi, it was influenced by European languages, mainly by French, especially after the Qajar Dyanasty and mostly remarkably during the Pahlavi dynasty. And in the recent years, Dari is suffering from an important impression of Foreing languages. So by saying "Arabic slowly influence Farsi and Dari remained intact" is incorrect according to me.
What is your opinion Tājik? This (the 1st point) is the only major contradiction, according to me. I just wanted to make a confirmation and if you are agree, I will make some modifications (not any major modification) and then you can verify. And if you are not agree, then what are the sources that you are relying on? Ariana310 12:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction

message: User:Jahangard asked me for the exact Persian quote of Jalal Matini. Here's the text:
زادگاه زبان و ادب فارسي خراسان و ماوراء النهر (فرارود) است.
A few lines later he says:
زبان فارسي، زبان مردم خراسان و ماوراء النهـر در قرن سوم و چهـارم هجـري، در طي هشت  نـه قرن
به سراسر ايران و سرزميـن هاي غـير ايراني، آناتولي، شبه قاره هـند، و بالکان و چـين،  راه يافت.
He clearly says that the original region of Persian language (of course, he means New Persian or Farsi, and not Middle Persian or Pahlavi) is Khorasan and Fararod (Transoxiana).Ariana310 10:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I modified that part according to these two sentences. Jahangard 11:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jalal Matini's Quote

message: Does the origin of the word Dari have anything to do with Darius the Great, who ruled over the area now known Iran and Afghanistan at one point? Duinemerwen 22:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't think so. It does not have anything with it at all. Only there's an opinion that Dari might have been derived from the word Daric, the royal coins during the Achaemenid period in Afghanistan, but that's only an opinion. Probably there might be any link between "Daric" and "Darius", but there's no solid proof for that.Ariana310 08:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dari, Darius the Great? 

message: I would like to make it very clear that Dari is the original Language and not farsi. Because of afghanistans situation in the world it does not have the power to change the history books .There is for a fact Errors and lots of them here in this article and anything taht has afghanistan in it as nothing is exactly clear. Both iranians, Americans, and jews write the history books. Of course they will be biase towards others. I would also like to stress that Dari is not a PERSIAN Language that is a Iranian, britsh imposed in the history books and afghanistan was not EAstern Persia that is a lie also. Persia was part of Aryana. We have not seen Any history books by our own afghans, so do not let foreigners do the research for us or believe there view because no one knows afghan better than they know themselves.
Pashtun786 02:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please take care to distinguish between the name and the language.  Dari may have become the official label for Eastern Farsi until the 1960s.  That has nothing to do with the fact that the name Dari has been in use unofficially for, according to the citations, hundreds of years.  Now there does seem to be a good question about what Dari referred to before 1960.  Was it just court Persian, or did it also refers to Eastern Farsi.  Second, check the linguistic sources.  They indicate that there are differences between Western Farsi and Eastern Farsi, and that the Western variety has preserved more of the archaic forms of court Persian. Certainly people did not just start speaking Eastern Farsi as their native tongue in the 1960s. --Bejnar 22:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afghan Dari NOT Farsi 

message: At several places in the article, it is stated that Dari (was the name of the) court language of Sassanids. 
* This is patently false, as is also quite a lot else in "source" #1. The referenced source #2 is falsely cited. The Iranica does not say that! And source #3 is a copy-and-paste from the bibliography of the Iranica article.
* The association of "classic style of Persian" and "court language of Sassanids" in the lede sentence is an anachronism. The classical Persian referred to is 9th/10th century onwards, which is 2 or 3 centuries after the Sassanids.
Literary New Persian is indeed called Dari and really has something to do with "court." But it is not the court of the Sassanids that is being referred to, but the court of Khorasan and Balkh. This was explicitely noted by al-Moqaffa (a.k.a. Rouzbeh) and by Moqaddasi (who said "court at Bukhara") but would be subsequently misunderstood as:
* "if the court of Khorasan/Balkh/Bukhara were using it in Rouzbeh's and Moqaddasi's time, then the Sassanids must have been previously using it too." This is obviously a logic error. 
* Then the error had a child: "if the Sassanids were using it, then the language spoken in Khorasan/Balkh/Bukhara must be a variant of Persian." 
Well, thats how mistakes got made in olden times, but WP articles should not propagate them, and it certainly should never misquote to support a bias. That is really nasty. -- Fullstop 16:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dari has nothing to do with the Sassanids 

message: This sentence is extremely convoluted:
:Some people do not consider Afghan Persian itself to be a dialect or a language. They consider it to be the written language (written Persian, with no dialects), and Persian (locally: Fârsi) the spoken language (spoken Persian, which has many different dialects).
It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Convoluted sentence 

message: This sentence is extremely convoluted:
:Some people do not consider Afghan Persian itself to be a dialect or a language. They consider it to be the written language (written Persian, with no dialects), and Persian (locally: Fârsi) the spoken language (spoken Persian, which has many different dialects).
It's the sort of thing which would only make sense if you knew the meaning already. 90.242.52.32 23:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Convoluted sentence 

message: Anoshirawan wrote on 25 October 2007 in an edit summary: "Whats Eastern and Western Persian lol..... In Afghanistan we have numerous dialects and most dialects spoken in the western parts of the country arte closer to the iranian dialects."  Anoshirawan should look at the scholarly literature. It is true that the dialects spoken in western Afghanistan are close to the dialects spoken in western Iran, both are classified as Eastern Farsi.  Eastern Farsi and Western Farsi are the terms that linguists, not necessarily native speakers, have determined analytically appropriately describe the major languages that cover the range of Persian dialects between Teheran and Kabul.  See, for example, Decker, Kendall D. (1992) "Languages of Chitral" Sociolinguistic Survey of Northern Pakistan, 5 National Institute of Pakistan Studies, Quaid-i-Azam University and Summer Institute of Linguistics, Islamabad, xxii, 257 p. In addition there are eight (8) other Persian languages that are currently spoken, some only by isolated elements removed from the Tajikistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Iran corridor. The Persian language sub-group is divided by linguists into the following languages:
* Aimaq (sometimes called Barbari or Berberi)
* Bukharic
* Darwazi (also called Badakhshani)
* Dehwari
* Dzhidi
* Farsi, Eastern (also called Eastern Persian)
* Farsi, Western (also called Western Persian)
* Hazaragi
* Pahlavani
* Tajiki  
Each of these has in addition a number of dialects that have been recognized. Just for example, Aimaq has had the following dialects identified: Taimuri (Teimuri, Timuri or Taimouri), Taimani, Zohri (Zuri), Jamshidi (Jamshedi, Djamchidi, Yemchidi or Dzhemshid), Firozkohi, Maliki, Mizmast, Chinghizi, and Zainal. --Bejnar 19:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eastern and Western Farsi

message: Parsi is a term primarily used for the Iranian language spoken in northern India. See Parsi a language of India  It is an Iranian language, as is Persian, but Parsi is part of the northwestern branch while the Persian sub-group of languages is in the southwestern branch. see "Language Family Trees: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western" Dari, the official language of Afghanistan, is Eastern Farsi (Eastern Persian), or a subset of the the Persian language group, and thus is only distantly related to Parsi.  See "Language Family Trees: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western, Southwestern, Persian" See also the Ethnologue report for Afghanistan at Languages of Afghanistan.  Now there is another language called Parsi-Dari, which is spoken in Iran and Afghanistan that is also in the northwestern branch of the Iranian languages and diverged from Parsi some 600 to 700 years ago or more. See "Parsi-Dari".  It is this language that is spoken by the Zorasterians and is sometimes confused with Dari because of the name. --Bejnar 14:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dari is not a dialect it is the official language of Afghanistan, identified linguistically as Eastern Farsi, it retains a number of older characteristics that Western Farsi has lost. See, for example, Darzi, Ali (1991) "Compensatory Lengthening in Modern Colloquial Tehrani Farsi" 	Studies in the Linguistic Sciences 21(1): pp. 23-37 which discusses in background summary the deletion of glottal consonants in Western Farsi. --Bejnar 00:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It appears, from second-hand information, I don't speak Farsi, that Prof. Daryush Ashori's article on Dari is discussing the language Parsi-Dari, see Ethnologue Report on Parsi-Dari.  Which as the Ethnologue report indicates is not the same. "Parsi-Dari is reported to not be inherently intelligible with Parsi of India, Pakistan, and other countries, but linguistically and ethnically related. They diverged 600 to 700 years ago or more." Parsi-Dari is related to Dari, Zoroastrian.  They are both Central Iran languages of the Northwestern branch of Iranian languages. This is unlike Eastern Farsi (Dari, Afghanistan) which is of the Southwestern branch of Iranian languages. --Bejnar 17:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Because I don't speak Farsi, I am forced to rely upon reliable published sources and not original research. Offical Wikipedia policy says: Wikipedia is not a venue for publishing, publicizing or promoting original research in any way.  --Bejnar 23:12, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with you that the Persian language spoken in Afghanistan both before it was officially named Dari and afterwards was and is referred to by speakers and linguists as Farsi.  My problem is that Parsi in English scholarship and elsewhere in English publications is reserved for certain Central Iranian languages, namely Parsi and Parsi-Dari. Central Iranian languages are not the same as the Farsi that is spoken variously in western Iran, or eastern Iran, or Afghanistan, or Pakistan or Tajikistan. The twelve identified Central Iranian languages are: Ashtiani; Dari, Zoroastrian; Fars, Northwestern; Gazi; Khunsari; Natanzi; Nayini; Parsi; Parsi-Dari; Sivandi; Soi; and Vafsi.  All of which are primarily spoken in Iran, except Parsi itself which is spoken in India and separated from the others about 600 years ago. --Bejnar 23:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: That might not be the sole reason. The other cause is simpler pronunciation of "peh" reletive to "feh". The old word for "sheep" in Persian is "guspand", now we say "gusfand". As you see "peh" has been changed to "feh", but not "geh" which is not present in Arabic.--217.218.38.59 (talk) 09:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with the derivation of the word Farsi.  The Peh is why Farsi in often called Persian in English.  However, regardless of the Persian, this is the English Wikipedia.  Even though Farsi is the Arabicized form of Parsi, native Persian speakers usually call it "Fārsi" in modern usage. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term 'Farsi' seems to have been first used in English in the mid-20th century, but has been condemned by some critics as an affectation. Article "Farsi", in Oxford English Dictionary, second edition, ed. John Simpson and Edmund Weiner, Clarendon Press, 1989. . According to Pejman Akbarzadeh, "... many Persians migrating to the West (particularly to the USA) after the 1979 revolution continued to use 'Farsi' to identify their language in English and the word became commonplace in English-speaking countries." Pejman Akbarzadeh (2005)  "“FARSI” or “PERSIAN”?" The Academy of Persian Language and Literature has argued in an official pronouncement that the name "Persian" is more appropriate, as it has the longer tradition in the western languages and better expresses the role of the language as a mark of cultural and national continuity. On the other hand, "Farsi" is also encountered frequently in the linguistic literature as a name for the language, used both by Iranian and by foreign authors, For example: A. Gharib, M. Bahar, B. Fooroozanfar, J. Homaii, and R. Yasami. Farsi Grammar. Jahane Danesh, 2nd edition, 2001,> and is preferred by some. Sussan Tahmasebi (1996) "I Speak Farsi" See the Encyclopedia Britannica for how the term Parsi is primarily used in English for the group of Zorastrians who fled to India from Iran.  As far as a language goes, in English terminology, Parsi refers first to the language spoken in India.  Secondarily it refers to the central Iranian dialect or language (doesn't matter which way you classify it) known to linguistis as Parsi-Dari.  It only adds confusion to use an old Persian term for Farsi to the mix.  In English Parsi does not equal anything except Parsi. --Bejnar 00:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I could not distinguish the party which defends the theory that "Dari is a synonymous term for Parsi in India". No reliable reference or source is presented. However, I do not deny the fact that the dialect of Parsi spoken today in India is much closer to Dari (let's take it as the version or dialect of Persian language spoken in Afghanistan) rather than Farsi spoken in Iran, in terms of expressions, etc. But the Parsi language of India is the same Farsi language (Persian), the language of both Iran and Afghanistan; as it was brought by migrants of Persian speakers who moved from Transoxiana, contemporary Iran and Afghanistan to the territories of India. However, even if accept or deny the theory concerning Dari and Parsi, I think the problematic is on the usage of the word "synonymous" or even Does it worth mentioning this point in the introduction of the article, right in the beginning?. In my point of view until one does not provide a direct source for the statement, we cannot have it mentioned in the article. Some users have even mixed up the terms of Parsi, Farsi, Farsi-Dari, Parsi-Dari and Dari, while they all refer to a single language. Of course, Dari is strictly referred to the old court language during the Sassanids or later empires, and is also referred to version of Farsi language spoken in Afghanistan. While Farsi-Dari or Parsi-Dari is a term used generally for the Persian language in order to consider both varieties of Persian language in Iran and Afghanistan. Another point to make clear, is that Paris is the same Farsi. The Arabs started calling the language as Farsi since the lack of -P- letter in Arabic, and this usage got common in all Persian territories. However, if you refer to the old books, the authors have used Parsi instead of Farsi. And I do not deny the fact that in English terminology "Parsi" only refers to the Parsi language in India, which was stated by User:Bejnar. Ariana (talk) 18:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is Parsi synonymous with the official language of Afghanistan?

message: Relation of Daric coin and Dari Persian language was original research. Behaafarid 23:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Was that your original research, or are you asking for a citation to a published source to establish that it was not original research? --Bejnar 20:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I note that the derivation from the Daric coin was in fact cited to a Persian work. --Bejnar 23:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  comments on my changes 

message: Reverted the article right now to Bejnar's better founded argumentation. During the last month, Anoshirawan and Bejnar had an edit war on the question wether Dari was just a dialect or a language. They had countless reverts from this here to that one (and maybe even earlier, but I didn't have the nerve to check). Apart from this question being linguistically problematic, please try to avoid edit wars - if not, admins may start to block you. Makes you appear less trustworthy as Wiki-contributors in the long run. Take a deep breath plus a look at WP:EDITWAR, WP:3R and dialect, and try to find a compromise formula. Thanks! -- Kavaiyan   <°)))o>< 00:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There he goes: Anoshirawan continues his edit war. -- Kavaiyan   <°)))o>< 04:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It may be that Anoshirawan believes that Dari (Afghanistan) is a dialect, but I don't believe that Anoshirawan has ever said so. The dispute is rather about what exactly Parsi is. See above Is Parsi synonymous with the official language of Afghanistan?. Although, Anoshirawan has said that the linguistic dividing of Farsi into Western Farsi and Eastern Farsi is a cause for lol; so that is also an issue. I think the underlying dispute is published scholarly research vs. the beliefs of a native speaker.  --Bejnar 23:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No edit wars, please 

message: Should this article have the name Dari (Afghanistan) because Dari is the official name of this language in Afghanistan, or should this article be named Eastern Farsi which is the name given by linguists (in English) for this language? Does the fact that Dari may be used to refer to a number of other languages, both spoken and written, weigh in here at all? --Bejnar 17:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of this article

message: I think this article should be moved to Dari (Persian) since Dari is another name for the Persian language. the preceding unsigned comment was left by 65.93.211.223 Talk on 24 November 2007 at 01:54 (UCT)
:Dari (Eastern Farsi) is one of several Persian languages, and one of many Iranian languages. Read the Persian language article. Because of the confusion, I think "Eastern Farsi" is a better choice. --Bejnar (talk) 03:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anoshirawan says that Dari is not a dialect.  I agree.  "Dari (Afghanistan)", known to linguists as Eastern Farsi, see Ethnologue Report on the Languages of Afghanistan or the Wikipedia article on Persian language, is a language in its own right, with dialects of its own. See, Ethnologue Report on Eastern Farsi for a list of dialects. --Bejnar (talk) 01:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  move to '''Dari (Persian)'''? 

message: It seems to me that Wikipedia policy would prohibit moving an article to a new name when the issue was under discussion on the talk page and no consensus had been achieved, absent an overriding problem like trademark or copyright violation.  So, Anoshirawan's moving this article to Dari (Persian) on 24 November 2007, was inappropriate,  at best. I would appreciate it if he would move it back, pending further discussion.  --Bejnar (talk) 01:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's keep it as is (Dari (Persian)) until a different name for this article is agreed upon. -- Behnam (talk) 03:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you can see below, I believe that there are serious problems with doing that.  Please encourage Anoshirawan to restore the old name pending discussion. --Bejnar (talk) 03:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Inappropriate moving of article

message: A. Request for comments on what is the best title for this article:
*Statement in favor of "Eastern Farsi": "Eastern Farsi" is the name used by English speaking linguists, see, e.g. Ethnologue Report for Tajikistan and Clifton, John M. (ed.) (2005) Studies in languages of Tajikistan North Eurasia Group, SIL International, St Petersburg, Russia, OCLC 122939499.  "Dari" is confusing to use in an article title, even with qualification, because it is all of the following: (1) the official name of an official language of Afghanistan; (2) the name of a dialect of Eastern Farsi, see Ethnologue prs; (3) apparently, according to Anoshirawan, is used by some Farsi speakers as synonymous with Persian; (4) is the name of a language spoken by a Zoroastrian remnant in Iran Dari (Zoroastrian), see Ethnologue gbz (5) is conjoined in Parsi-Dari (also Dari-Parsi) to name another language spoken in Iran by some 350,000 people, see Ethnologue prd.  "Dari (Persian)" is particularly a problem because of point (3) above, but also because of points (1) and (2). --Bejnar (talk) 02:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the points stated by User:Bejnar. I stated my point of views in section #Is_Parsi_synonymous_with_the_official_language_of_Afghanistan.3F concerning this point. Ariana (talk) 18:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC correct title for article and relation to the Parsi language

message: I have been asked to add a neutral opinion, as an admin uninvolved in the naming dispute. While it seems to me that both "Dari (Afghanistan)" and "Dari (Persian)" make sense as names to some extent, a glance at the "Dari" disambiguation page makes it clear that the latter title could be misleading, as Dari Persian is a name used for literary Old Persian. As such, it is not suitable for a name for this page. If Dari is synonymous with Eastern Farsi, then calling the name "Dari (Eastern Farsi)" makes sense. Similarly, if it is the official name for the variety of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, then "Dari (Afghanistan)" makes sense. Either of those names is more acceptable than the current name, from a purely Wikipedian standpoint - the question remains as to whether there are enough references to support either of those names as a correct and accurate description of the language.
I hope that helps - if not, I'd suggest contacting one or more of the editors at Wikipedia:Third opinion for further outside input. Grutness...wha? 04:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would work too. I considered suggesting this, but didn't know enough to know which was the primary meaning of "Dari". Grutness...wha? 22:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately there seems to be disagreement about what the primary meaning of Dari is.  My understanding is that Anoshirawan (the editor who moved this article to Dari (Persian) believes that there is only a single undifferentiable Persian language and that the primary meaning of Dari is just one of the many terms for that Persian language.  Maybe Anoshirawan will drop by and give us his true perspective. There are also some comments that seem to indicate that Persian scholars in Iran use Dari primarily as a term for Early New Persian (article not written yet).  Before Afghanistan dubbed the Persian language most frequently spoken in Afghanistan as Dari, that meaning probably (possibly?) was the primary meaning. --Bejnar (talk) 03:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: All of the above are quotations about Dari (دری).  My understanding of what Anoshirawan is quoting is that Dari is in fact the courtly language in which poetry is written.  As F.J. Steingass says in his A Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary on page 516 under "Darī"  belonging to the royal court, courtly; one of the three surviving dialects of the seven anciently spoken in Persia, said to prevail chiefly in Balkh, Bukhārā, and Badakhshān, and called the language of the court and of Paradise. link For example, Anoshirawan's quote from Sadi Sherazi, seems to say in essence that when writing a poem about a burning romantic love in a palace garden with nightingales only Dari is appropriate. I welcome a better translation of the line from Sadi Sherazi.  If I am putting words in  Anoshirawan's mouth that he did not intend, I apologize, and I hope that Anoshirawan will correct any discrepancies. --Bejnar (talk) 23:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm responding to RfC. It's a language article. Follow Ethnologue or confusion will continue. A disambiguation page would also be useful. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ethnologue calls this language Eastern Farsi, the old consensus on the name of the courtly language was Early New Persian (not yet written).  There is a disambiguation age at Dari, recently (28 November 2007) vandalized by IP editor 203.81.200.123. --Bejnar (talk) 18:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside opinion 

message: Move :Dari (Persian) to Dari and :Dari to Dari (disambiguation).  The modern language of Afghanistan is the primary topic. —  AjaxSmack  14:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would work too. I considered suggesting this, but didn't know enough to know which was the primary meaning of "Dari". Grutness...wha? 22:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately there seems to be disagreement about what the primary meaning of Dari is.  My understanding is that Anoshirawan (the editor who moved this article to Dari (Persian) believes that there is only a single undifferentiable Persian language and that the primary meaning of Dari is just one of the many terms for that Persian language.  Maybe Anoshirawan will drop by and give us his true perspective. There are also some comments that seem to indicate that Persian scholars in Iran use Dari primarily as a term for Early New Persian (article not written yet).  Before Afghanistan dubbed the Persian language most frequently spoken in Afghanistan as Dari, that meaning probably (possibly?) was the primary meaning. --Bejnar (talk) 03:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: All of the above are quotations about Dari (دری).  My understanding of what Anoshirawan is quoting is that Dari is in fact the courtly language in which poetry is written.  As F.J. Steingass says in his A Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary on page 516 under "Darī"  belonging to the royal court, courtly; one of the three surviving dialects of the seven anciently spoken in Persia, said to prevail chiefly in Balkh, Bukhārā, and Badakhshān, and called the language of the court and of Paradise. link For example, Anoshirawan's quote from Sadi Sherazi, seems to say in essence that when writing a poem about a burning romantic love in a palace garden with nightingales only Dari is appropriate. I welcome a better translation of the line from Sadi Sherazi.  If I am putting words in  Anoshirawan's mouth that he did not intend, I apologize, and I hope that Anoshirawan will correct any discrepancies. --Bejnar (talk) 23:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm responding to RfC. It's a language article. Follow Ethnologue or confusion will continue. A disambiguation page would also be useful. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ethnologue calls this language Eastern Farsi, the old consensus on the name of the courtly language was Early New Persian (not yet written).  There is a disambiguation age at Dari, recently (28 November 2007) vandalized by IP editor 203.81.200.123. --Bejnar (talk) 18:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Another possibility

message: Merge with Persian.  Ethnologue is not a scientific source.  It is run by Christian missionaries.  Afghan Persian has several dialects of its own and the dialect of Herat is almost the same as that of Mash-had.  We do not distinguish languages by its dialect.   Tajiki, Dari, Persian are all the same language and Persian readers can read Persian publication from any of these languages.  --alidoostzadeh (talk) 02:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right!, this page should be merged with Persian language.--217.218.38.59 (talk) 10:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: merge

message: I commented out this reference.  It was supposed to back up:
When I checked that reference I found it didn't support the assertions it was supposed to back up, at all.
It says Pashto: "...is the native tongue of 50 to 55 percent of Afghans;"
It says Persian is: "...The native tongue of twenty five percent of the population." -- although it also says: "...it is the most commonly spoken language in Afghanistan"(!)
Finally, it says: "Dari must not be confused with Kabol, the dialect of Kabul."
I think what this reference is trying to say, is that, even though 50 to 55 percent of Afghans are native speakers of Pashto, since it also claims only another 10 percent speak it as a second language, while a greater percentage of citizens can speak a dialect of Persian, and, by this reasoning, states more people speak Persian than Pashto.
FWIW, the Pashto article claims 15 million speakers in Afghanistan.  It cites the CIA factbook, which also doesn't back up its claims.  The CIA says:
Cheers!  Geo Swan (talk) 05:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|cn}} -- see talk 

message: Its no mystery that there are alot of Iranians and Pro iranians Writing the history of afghanistan to there own agendas and Its a shame that Dari is called a PERSIAN LANGUAGE when it should be called in an Afghani Language.
Tell us what you think?
Pashtun786 (talk) 01:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Eastern Farsi is spoken in both Iran and Afghanistan.  Languages don't belong to countries.  Western Farsi is spoken primarily in Iran, but is also spoken by a few individuals in Afghanistan. Linguistically, they are both Persian languages. --Bejnar (talk) 16:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dari should not be called a Persian (Iranian) Language  

message: :I made a correction. --Enzuru 01:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add infobox