Talk:Dean Smith

message: Has to be a better, legally useable picture than the snarling photograph (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/DeanSmithcropped.jpg/220px-DeanSmithcropped.jpg) in the right sidebar. RaqiwasSushi (talk) 00:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Add one if you got one.Remember (talk) 00:09, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo

message: Hi all- It reads a little strange to me that under "Coaching Tree" Michael Jordan is simply mentioned as "majority owner of the Charlotte Bobcats." I understand it's his current association with basketball, but I'd think he's most notable as a six-time NBA champion, NBA five-time MVP, or even (as stated on his nba.com bio) "the greatest basketball player of all time." Some other members of the tree have more-notable past associations listed first, some have current associations listed first. (Cf. Brown, Doherty, Lebo, Cherry for some comparison of how current vs. previous activities are variously listed.)
Nitsua60 (talk) 16:26, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coaching tree--MJ 

message: Someone keeps adding the stat that Dean Smith is the losingest coach in ACC history.  This is a section to discuss this addition. Remember (talk) 17:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Losingest coach in ACC history 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title: Assessment comment

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091202062008/http://www.nba.com/nuggets/history/ACC_50th_Anniversary_Team.html to http://www.nba.com/nuggets/history/ACC_50th_Anniversary_Team.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070323193043/http://tarheelblue.cstv.com:80/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/121902aaa.html to http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/121902aaa.html
*Added  tag to http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/033003aaa.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100719170847/http://www.newsobserver.com:80/2010/07/17/585763/dean-smith.html to http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/07/17/585763/dean-smith.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidlariviere/2015/02/08/dean-smith-one-of-the-greatest-innovators-in-college-basketball-dead-at-83/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-10-22/roy-williams-spoke-with-investigators-rashad-mccants-did-not
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/07/17/585763/dean-smith.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidlariviere/2015/02/08/dean-smith-one-of-the-greatest-innovators-in-college-basketball-dead-at-83/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-10-22/roy-williams-spoke-with-investigators-rashad-mccants-did-not
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/08/4540165/former-unc-coach-dean-smith-died.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061014202207/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/18/life_of_reilly_0317/ to http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/18/life_of_reilly_0317/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150209014617/http://www.wncn.com/story/28055667/unc-chancellor-recalls-bold-decision-to-hire-dean-smith to http://www.wncn.com/story/28055667/unc-chancellor-recalls-bold-decision-to-hire-dean-smith
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message: Coming in peace to hopefully learn something about page naming. As a UK-based editor I feel quite confident saying that this Dean Smith is almost unknown in the UK. I have looked at the page view stats for the past year and Dean Smith has 152,600 compared with the soccer coach Dean Smith (footballer, born 1971) who has 167,700. There are a number of other Dean Smiths listed at the Dean Smith (disambiguation), if you total 2018 views they come to 185,000 vs Dean Smith's 167,700. I am currently not clear though why someone searching for 'Dean Smith' gets jumped straight to this page and not the disambiguation page. My gut reaction is that this Dean Smith should have a (basketball) after his name or similar. I may be wrong, this is not an area I claim expertise in so I'm posting here to hear views on this. This is one graphing I used to compare views this year: 
I have looked at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidance and it notes: that two major aspects that editors commonly consider are these:
*A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
*A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
Based on these bullets it seems that Dean Smith cannot be considered 'much more likely than any other single topic, as shown in my graph plot above, he was the second-placed 'Dean Smith' article in terms of views in 2018. However, Dean Smith does seem to have more weight on he second bullet as he had a very long and successful college basketball coaching career and won numerous awards and records. However, it is my opinion that this is a fact known to USA audiences mainly (he was not an international sport coach). Please let me know your views? I'm just opening a discussion and not proposing any move at the moment. Mountaincirque 13:04, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The main argument for the basketball coach would be "long-term significance" and his induction into the Basketball Hall of Fame. Additionally, he is also the only "Dean Smith" listed at Encyclopedia Brittanica.—Bagumba (talk) 13:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I just noticed he coached the US men's team to an olympic gold in 1976...bizarrely this isn't noted in the lead or main body, only in his honours and info table. This makes him more notable for an international audience I feel. I just searched Encyclopedia Brittanica for Jose Mourinho (arguably one of the world's most famous soccer coaches), no entry, it is highly USA-centric. Mountaincirque 13:31, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, Dean Smith is a HUGE name. If it makes you feel better, most Americans wouldn't know Bobby Moore either, but it seems appropriate to me that he's the primary topic given his importance to world football. Dean Smith has a similar stature in world basketball - he is one of only a couple of American coaches in the FIBA Hall of Fame, changed the game in many ways that are still felt today, and his death was front page (not front sports page) news in the US. I don't think it is compelling to compare a coach who died five years ago (and has been retired for more than 20) to an active football manager with respect to page views. Active individuals (regardless of discipline) always get more views. The "problem" (which isn't really a problem, just a fact) is that the UK has zero interest in basketball, which is different than North America, Australia, Asia and many countries in Europe - where Smith is very well known. Rikster2 (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s funny, less than an hour after I typed that I was watching a national news program and one of the guests referred to a politician who is trying to ride out some bad press until tomorrow’s election by saying “it’s like Dean Smith’s four corners offense” (an offense aimed at draining time off the game clock). Everyone on the panel knew what he was referring to. Rikster2 (talk) 23:08, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all your insights, he does seem to be a big cultural figure. I don't necessarily agree that Dean Smith would be known globally though, having worked in Asia (Thailand, India, Nepal, Cambodia) and Africa (Kenya, Uganda, Ghana), English football has by far the highest status, basketball not so much, if at all. Maybe in 30 years another Dean Smith will have risen to equal prominence to justify changing the title of this page, but not for today then it seems. Mountaincirque 12:18, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe your view of basketball is UK-centric? Food for thought. I worked in England, I know your country doesn’t care about the sport. I take it you haven’t worked in China, Japan, the Philippines, etc. where basketball is either the top sport or closely followed? My point was that, generally, the US doesn’t care much about football (at least not that kind) so a lot of very prominent footy figures aren’t known here, which is analogous to your view of Smith and other basketball figures. I would say English footy is now getting more prominent due to the rise in American tv packages, but the figures of the past aren’t generally known. Rikster2 (talk) 12:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I acknowledged that readily in my first post, I'm not trying to put basketball down by the way, just asking a question on why someone from a very popular (but mainly one-country sport) is the WP:PRIMARY above others. Sorry I just don't prescribe to the view that Dean Smith would be known to many people in Manila, Tokyo or Beijing, only among extreme fans and those above a certain age (as he retired in 1997). Mountaincirque 14:00, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this page the main [[Dean Smith]], this seems USA-centric? 

message: I searched for 'Dean Smith' on Wikipedia. This is not the article I expected to arrive at.
It appears that I am not alone in being a little surprised by this. Indeed, the page for the Dean Smith that manages Aston Villa F.C. in the Premier League has received more hits in 9 of the past 12 months (including the last 8 in a row). Per WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY, This is one the main criteria to be considered when determining whether one page or another should be regarded as the 'primary' page. Searching for 'Dean Smith' through the modified Google Search string also returns an overwhelming number of results concerning the Aston Villa manager. I think it is fairly clear that there is, at the moment, WP:NOPRIMARY topic, and that this page should be disambiguated accordingly.
I have linked to this discussion on the talk page for the other Dean Smith mentioned, and in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball. Domeditrix (talk) 14:12, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you start a WP:RM if you want to move Dean Smith to Dean Smith (basketball) and Dean Smith (disambiguation) to Dean Smith. GiantSnowman 14:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I am at the point where I am OK with Dean Smith becoming a disambiguation and this one moving to a “basketball” DAB. I don’t think it is surprising that a current figure gets more hits than a historical one, and I think American people and British people think of different subjects when the hear “Dean Smith,” but at least the Aston Villa manager is clearly a significant figure. Rikster2 (talk) 14:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As above. It seems the current Dean Smith article is the owner of long term notability. Dean Smith of Aston Villa is the owner of current popularity as he's not dead and is gainfully employed. One is likely to be searched for within the US only, while one will gather interest from England primarily. In both cases it may be worth changing the disambig prompt at the top to "This article is for the American basketball Coach, for the English football Coach see Dean Smith, for other people with the same name see disambig" and vice versa. Koncorde (talk) 14:34, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Caution There are links from numerous pages which points to Dean Smith at present. If someone is thinking of moving the Villa manager to the primary target, the links from the articles will not point to the right version if we don't check what currently links to the page. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 17:54, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

text: I've expanded the respective hatnotes as mentioned.—Bagumba (talk) 19:29, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

text: Concur on long-term vs current significance arguments.  In 2017, views justified the basketball coach as primary, and he was already dead. Since, the football manager has been in the Premier League, and gets more views, but not overwhelmingly.  Too soon to tell if he'll have enduring significance when he retires.—Bagumba (talk) 18:32, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

text: *Yes, this person will no longer have any impact on the actual sport and the others are not as popular in terms of worldwide research. The current Aston Villa manager has not had worldwide notability since he has not played with any top division side at the time of the contracts. As what someone else has said about the WP:RM, this should draw in more users to give their views on the discussion. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this the primary topic? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: 
*The supporters of the move, some of whom just happen to be passionate football fans, suggest that the football coach is just as notable as the basketball coach so no primary topic exists.
*The opposers point out that the Basketball coach is more notable in the long-term and argue for it to be significantly more notable overall.
*Even though the number of people who registered support for the move are more than the ones who registered opposition, it seems that some of the arguments proposed in favor of the move were readily rebutted and opposed with statistics.This page is Not Moved due to lack of consensus to do so. (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 12:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: In the US we would call that a “journeyman.” Good enough to work around his sport for a long time but not good enough to make much of a mark in its history. The basketball coach is considered one of the best basketball coaches in history. In short, you could easily write a history of the Premier League without ever mentioning that Dean Smith. You would have a hard time writing a history of the sport of basketball (let alone college basketball) without including that Dean Smith. Rikster2 (talk) 23:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I just find the insistence that he's only an interim coach to be annoying. even if he wasn't currently leicseter boss hes still notable for the prior 36 years. Muur (talk) 01:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose The basketball coach is considered a legend and clearly has more long-term significance than the interim coach. Alvaldi (talk) 23:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 8 May 2023