Talk:The Master Musicians of Joujouka

message: The admin did the initial disambiguation beginnings according to things I saw him say on his talk page prior to my even coming into this page. 
I haven't previously edited the article before doing the talk page discussion but have been an editor who could have edited in here for a long time. I had pretty much left wikipedia though before finding these MMOJ articles. Since the disambiguation, I have worked on trying to focus on giving acknowledgment to both bands with neutral tone and no non-verifiable or poorly sourced things being in any article I work on. Looking at the comment down the page, it may be that I will have to stop working on this because I can't work on it and start dealing with talk page arguing too. 
I would like to work with anyone who has a complaint about any work I do but not to the point of having to deal with long arguing because my health is not the best.
There are now three group pages to differentiate between the groups for people visiting an article in any of the three articles: Master Musicians of Jajouka, Master Musicians of Joujouka, Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. The third one will likely be redirected to the Master Musicians of Jajouka page because it's redundant given the group uses both names, such as on soundtracks.
On a side note, I think it looks like footnotes are back in vogue, so I guess the References sections I made from past guidance I'd received a long time ago from an admin not to use jump link Notes is not the current view, and so I'd better go back to jump links for the References section. I'll double check that soon with admins who have been focused on that subject in past citation style message board discussions in wikipedia. Emerman 05:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation and Editing

message: Can someone confirm via published articles anywhere that Ahmed Attar "leads" the Master Musicians of Joujouka? 
: Never mind, I found the answer is yes, from old post in talk page history. Did not remember that had been said before. So that's great, I'm glad to know. Emerman 14:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  question 

message: After checking in email I need to make sure that we address if there is anything more User:Opiumjones23 believes should be in this article. If so, it probably needs to be discussed here, not in email but I didn't realize that yesterday when I was first becoming aware of how public talk pages are. Unless he decides he is fine with email instead of dealing with here (he is busy just now and will get back to it on the weekend). I'll assume he likes this talk page for it unless I hear otherwise from him. Sorry I didn't understand the depth of this issue previously. I'm not sure I'm going to be the one who has the time to do all the reading involved in this but I can at least start this discussion back up because it needs to be done. There's a lot I didn't understand when I first came to the discussion board, I think and some ideas I had about Hamri's life were from the 1992 Davis book, but I found a timing discrepancy in that book today, I think, so I'm not sure about that book's credibility till I recheck. Both sides would need to list sources since this seems to still be in dispute from what I can see in email. I'm not sure I have time to deal with this much longer myself but I hope all is sorted out fine. Emerman 23:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, and I see that those two authors are listed elsewhere as having written an art dictionary. I will put the book back in related places like the Hamri article. I had to recheck the gallery spelling; it's "Lawrence" and is mentioned on some artist sites. Emerman 16:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Items [[User: Opiumjones23]] Believes Should Be in Article 

message: User Svest Admin on this page , I think,  has been emailed scans of the sleave notes including artist credits for   Master Musicians of Joujouka Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka, Rolling Stones Records 1971.
The Lp was recorded in 1967 and released in 1971.That puts Emermans assertion that this group cant include this disc in their discography in a different light.
Furthermore and much more importantly it proves that the name was being used by a Hamri  group nearly 30 years before Emermans credited date of "forming" in the MMOJoujouka article.
In light of just this several of Emermans "facts" will have to be changed across all the pages he has been editing. User:Opiumjones 23 20:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have already answered the above comments at several other pages you also posted the above at so I won't repeat the answer again here. Emerman 22:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Master Musicians of Joujouka credits 1971

message: Awaiting admin  on above 
User:Opiumjones 23 02:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Awaiting admin 

message: The page Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka has a notice on it that 'The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.'
I'm surprised there isn't a notice, on this and other related pages, that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. I would recommend it.
This is a very interesting discussion, but the exact issues in dispute are unclear. Could Emerman please give a concise summary of his claims. This issue is very sensitive because so many of the parties are still living, and at first glance I wonder if this is the correct forum to resolve them in. It doesn't appear that there is any dispute concerning these issues any where else in the public domain.
The argument here also seems very one-sided, and interested parties should be given notice of the dispute here, and have an opportunity to respond.
My particular interest in this is over the effect of Westernising native tradition, and the international law implications. I'm going to post notice of this case to some specialists in human rights and native law, such as early Irish and native American, and see if there is any precedent on these issues. I'll get back to you in a while.
I would advise caution in proceeding too hastily with this matter. I'd also suggest narrowing discussion to one forum, since it is being cross-posted over numerous pages such as  Master Musicians of Jajouka and 
Joujouka Tuathal 00:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I answered at the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page. Emerman 01:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarify the issues in dispute please

message: The below sentence from article is untrue.
"The master musicians of that early group were led by tribal chief Hadj Abdesalam Attar."
The above is factually incorrect in both of its main assertions 1/ re tribal leader and 2/ re being "leader" of the musicians. This one even if accompanied by a modern source is still 100% incorrect. Sherkin was lead rhiata player at this time (1950s}. As to "tribal" leader ????. The mountain range that Joujouka is in is called Ahl Srif after the tribe who live/lived there. I have never heard of the leader of the Ahl Srif tribe being from Joujouka. 
This is one of many inaccuracies in the current article. 
The group have been performing rather longer than the dated 1995. Gysin  recorded them in 1950s. Timothy Leary? "Four Thousand Year Old Rock N Roll band" Jail Notes (London, 1970) places their origins in pre-history.  The first record was a french release in the sixties, the second Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka 1971, the third Master Musicians of Jajouka recorded 1972 released 1974. This was Mastered by Miles and Hamri in London possibly in 1973. Some musicians who have recorded and/or play  with this group have also recorded on all Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar output since the late 1980s. 
This may further complicate things for editiors with agendas like Emerman. In certain cases musicians actually from Joujouka/Jajouka who became involved in Bachir Attar's version have been allowed back into the Master Musicians of Joujouka i.e. the traditional Sufi group/brotherhood. 
I personally knew all the musicians still alive at the time of my first visit in 1994. Between the musicians there is no problem. 
They just didn't elect Bachir leader, a press release did. 
Those who have continued playing their sacred trance music in an authentic way  lead themselves and their community in Joujouka. That is the way it is there in the vilage. I am sure that some editors will place the facts in order. The truth will keep the music alive!!!!!
User:Opiumjones 23 02:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources re "tribal leader" in fifties plus further inaccuracies

message: I've just protected this article and a few other related articles as per the mediation process going on at User:FayssalF/JK. Thanks for your understanding. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article protected

message: I would like to add a link to the MythiMedia research project (Bologna University, Italy) http://www.mythimedia.org/. The project explores the presence of Greek mythology in today's culture, and contains an article entitled "W.S. Burroughs, Brian Jones and the Pipes of Pan of Joujouka" (http://www.mythimedia.org/pipes_of_pan_of_joujouka%20.html) [this is the address that should be linked]. The site is written in English. Fallingdrapery 00:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New external link 

message: this seems to be the group of hamri the painter who brought this village and group to global attention, it is an album cover and therefore fair use regardless of one admin opinion. Only on astehic grounds should it be moved from the info box to elsewhere on the page I think.
comment below.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.229.160.72 (talk • contribs) 00:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it would be fair use to display an album cover in an article about that album. Adding it to an article about the artist is simply decorative, which isn't covered by fair use. Please review Wikipedia's fair use guidelines (specifically: "Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)"). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: re fair use brian jones original cover image

message: I have just semi-protected this article for 1 week, due to the ongoing edit war over external links, references etc. Also see the (apparently unresolved) mediation attempt (see User:FayssalF/JK). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 15:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected 

message: In 1968 Rolling Stones Brian Jones recorded the Master Musicians Joujouka . Ref the LP Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Joujouka sleeve notes. The record was released on Rolling Stones Records in 1971.
User:Opiumjones 23 02:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Master Musicians of Joujouka, Brian Jones and the Rolling Stones

message: User:FayssalF/JKOpiumjones 23 (talk) 01:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion Moved to Mediation at [[User:FayssalF/JK]]

message: I note that an anon Ip has blanked the external links on this page. It would be wise to reinstate them as they contain many refs and info re Master Musicians of Joujouka/Jajouka. NB I added some weeks ago external links on Master Muisicans of Jajouka featuring bachir Attar eg an interview with Bachir from the Walrus maga in Canada. The interview refs the original group and Bachir's one so it should be here too.Opiumjones 23 (talk) 10:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note re external links

message: I am pretty sure that there used to be a hatnote at the top of this article, distinguishing this subject from :The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar . I can't remember if there was a reason for removing it but I think the hatnote was, and will be, helpful.  But given the editing history of this particular article, I thought I would mention it here before doing so.  (Note that the other article does have a hatnote.) -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Y Done. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: (Cross-posted to :Talk:The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar) I am not sure why Lee Ranaldo's essay was removed as a source.  The paragraph beginning with "In the time since my visit to Jajouka I have been made aware of a situation ..." is an even-handed, neutral account acknowledging (if not describing) the schism between the two musical groups.  I propose restoring a brief explanation, based on Ranaldo's writing, to both articles. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a "Schism" section to briefly deal with the split between the two groups.  I hope I have done this in as neutral a way as possible.  I have used the same text and references (including the Lee Ranaldo piece) in both articles.  The split should certainly be mentioned. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 02:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Another potential source: New York Times article from 1995 (). this appears (without a link) under "Further reading" in the Jajouka article. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

text: And another, from The Independent, 1995 ().  This was at User:FayssalF/JK, where FayssalF was attempting to moderate the article issues; one of the involved parties rejected it outright over the "Jajouka/Joujouka" spelling, but not for the actual content itself (so far as I can tell; see also TL;DR).  It is certainly suitable for citing the fact that the schism exists. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 18:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Professor Philip Schuyler's essay is also a source for the schism but some of his conclusions and suppositions are based on the 1990s don't seem accurate today. Philip Schuyler Joujouka/Jajouka/Zahjoukah Moroccan Music and Euro-American Imagination from Mass Mediations Ed.Walter Armbrust, New Approaches to Popular Culture in the Middle East and Beyond UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS 2000 available to read , http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8k4008kx&chunk.id=s1.6.43&toc.id=ch6&toc.depth=1&brand=ucpress&anchor.id=d0e4065#X  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.152.161.176 (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schism 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Master Musicians of Joujouka. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061124121729/http://www.thewire.co.uk/archive/essays/ranaldo.html to http://www.thewire.co.uk/archive/essays/ranaldo.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Master Musicians of Joujouka. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080911015418/http://chardman.sauceruney.com/music/shows/7.05.08/OW_Joujouka.mp3 to http://chardman.sauceruney.com/music/shows/7.05.08/OW_Joujouka.mp3
*Added archive https://archive.is/20130221175355/http://joujouka.net/5Gallery/ to http://joujouka.net/5Gallery/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060906154831/http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/news/38216/Master_Musicians_of_Joujouka_Cavort_With_Corgan to http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/news/38216/Master_Musicians_of_Joujouka_Cavort_With_Corgan
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080830090948/http://www.telquel-online.com/239/arts1_239.shtml to http://www.telquel-online.com/239/arts1_239.shtml
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:47, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Master Musicians of Joujouka. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929114317/http://joujouka.net/2Legacy/41/mohamed-hamri-obituary-in-the-independent-london to http://joujouka.net/2Legacy/41/mohamed-hamri-obituary-in-the-independent-london
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjQefHjLSTo which is an album by this group that's not in their discography. I know little of this band or the type of music surrounding it and I can't find much citation about this album anywhere, I am encouraging people who are knowledgeable about this band (or are better at digging out information than I am) to research this album and either confirm or debunk its existence as a Master Musicians of Joujouka album.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.121.66 (talk) 23:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's part of the other band's discography (Jajouka, not Joujouka). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jajouka between the mountains