Talk:Alliterative verse

message: The number of weak syllables ... can vary from one to three.
This is not the case with Old High German and Old Saxon alliterative verse (e.g. Hildebrandslied - Heliand).
The famous lines 4 and 5 of the Hildebrandslied where four or even five weak syllables seem to be used as a poetic device (note especially the last half-line) show this:
Garutun se iro gúdhamun   gurtun sih iro suert ana,
Helidos, ubar hringá, dó si tó dero hiltiu ritun 
They made ready their fighting raiment, girded their swords on, 
The heroes, over ringmail, before they to that fight rode.
:I've added some detail on this to the German section, but since most sources see these additional syllables as a German innovation, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave the general statement as it is. What is missing here is:
:*something on the use of half-stresses, and how compounds are stressed
:*statements about what alliterates - currently only in the OE section
:*something on the preponderance of staves on nouns and how the other parts of speech compare.
:Pfold 12:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Common Features and Origins:

message: Hi! I'm new and I'm afraid I didn't do this right, but I edited the piece to refer to the two most recent translations of Beowulf. - MaggieT 14:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Translations of Beowulf

message: Is there still a desire to record this article for Spoken Wikipedia? 
I would be willing to take it on, but I'll need someone to help me with pronunciations. I've only take 1 undergrad course that covered Old English (several years ago) and 2 for Middle English, so my pronunciation is going to be rusty. Also, I have no experience pronouncing words in any of the other languages. I DO have a broad knowledge of the IPA, though, and I'm familiar with most of the literary terms. Ckamaeleon ((T)) 17:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made a recording but by no means perfect and I start to sound tired near the end BUT ITS done so you can improve upon it later and replace the existing file is fine with me. I am conversational in Norwegian, trained in Icelandic so I can approach the Old English fairly easy but I'm not really sure if I'm placing stresses correctly, Icelandic defaults to the first syllable ALL the time and I tried to follow the bolded but blah, give me some criticism, feedback and I can re-record portions of the article. .:DavuMaya:. 07:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoken Article? 

message: I was pleased to see that alliterative verse was a featured article, but was surprised to see this bit:
"Alliterative verse is occasionally written by modern authors. J. R. R. Tolkien composed several poems about Middle-earth in Old English alliterative verse; these poems were found among his papers and published posthumously."
Tolkien did much more than this. He wrote alliterative verse in Modern English, in the style of Old English alliterative verse (he was one of the major Beowulf scholars of his time - see Beowulf: the monsters and the critics). Examples of Tolkien's alliterative verses include those written by him for the Rohirrim, a culture in The Lord of the Rings that borrowed many aspects from Anglo-Saxon culture. There are also many examples of alliterative verse in Tolkien's posthumously-published works in The History of Middle-earth series. Of these, the unfinished 'The Lay of the Children of Húrin', published in The Lays of Beleriand, is the longest. Another example of Tolkien's alliterative verse is at the introduction to the article on Mirkwood. Outside of his Middle-earth works, Tolkien also worked on alliterative modern English translations of several Middle English poems by the Pearl Poet: Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo. These were published posthumously in 1975. In his lifetime, as well as the verse in The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien published The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son in 1953, an alliterative verse dialogue recounting a historical fictional account of The Battle of Maldon.
So, what I'm proposing, is that this is put into the article in some form or other. If I don't get any objections, I'll go ahead and add something like what I've written above. Carcharoth 23:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it'd be great to add what you said above. It could even be its own article if we had enough text. --Fang Aili talk 23:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Done. Carcharoth 16:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tolkien and alliterative verse 

message: It seems to me that the Germanist's penchant for long lines has taken over the Old Norse chapter. Ljóðaháttr is, e.g., said to be comprised of four lines, whereas any Norse scholar would analyze it as having six. I'll wait a while and then change it back to the conventions of Norse studies instead of Old High German and comparable fields of study, if nobody objects. Cheers Io 21:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ljóðaháttur

message: (Long is one night, long is the next; how can I bear three? A month has often seemed less to me than this half "hýnótt" (word of unclear meaning)). 
I think hynott means night doesnt it? Its probably pronounced similiar with swedish "natt". I dont speak norse though but it seemes logical and in place. If so it should be:
- "Long is one night, long is the next, how can i bear three? A month has often seemed less to me than this half night"
:'nótt' (or 'nátt') means 'night' but the compund hý-nótt is unclear. Haukur 11:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long is one night 

message: Not sure why 24.190.181.204 saw it necessary to remove the entire Survivals section. I re-instated it. 193.109.51.106 (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reservation I have about this section is its title. Certainly the modern works are revivals, not survivals,  and the 14th Century stuff is normally regarded as part of a movement called the "Alliterative Revival". Could someone who knows about the Middle English stuff come in on this? --Pfold (talk) 17:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survivals 

message: Mention should be made of the Welsh cerdd dafod poems using alliterative metres, the cynghanedd, such as the awdl, cywydd, and englyn. The rules of the cynghanedd are not only as strict as in Germanic alliterative verse, but actually far more exacting and difficult.RandomCritic (talk) 22:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Welsh

message: The second sentence of note 1 seems to be miswritten. Some context:
: … The entire Old Norse poetic corpus is alliterative, and still survives in Iceland. … the alliterative poetry is alive, e.g. Disneyrímur by Þórarinn Eldjárn. Many people compose stanzas and poems for their amusement using the rímur meters…
Of course the corpus survives, wherever there are libraries that have copies. This seems to be trying to say that the form survives. I'm about to change it accordingly. --Þnídur (talk) 03:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  modern Iceland 

message: This a very complex article, but has few references. it may be derived from cited works, but needs inline refs. it thus reads like original research.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 01:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  It may be as well to recall that many if not all older articles were written when people felt it was fine simply to list the references at the end, as indeed other encyclopedias still do today. Unfortunately, that doesn't work well when multiple editors over many years work together on an article, and the original traceability to sources is broken. I think we should accept in the case of a serious article like this one that the material was added in good faith from the undoubtedly reliable sources cited. The challenge, of course, is to develop an accurate set of inline references to connect the text to the sources. That will take substantial effort, and could involve rewriting as well as referencing. Much of the text, however, consists of lists of examples, which should probably be in a stand-alone list article (if anywhere). Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:32, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole article is way too detailed. In my view it should provide a summary, with all the detailed stuff moved to separate articles. This is particularly the case with the exhaustive list of Tolkien's material, but also the coverage of the ON forms. As it stands, I suspect most readers need only a small proportion of the material and if they want detailed info, it will only be that relating to one particular tradition. I would suggest that each major section should be reduced to couple of paragraphs at most, to provide an overview, with cut material formaing the basis of new articles on the individual traditions.  --Pfold (talk) 14:48, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sounds about right. The trouble is, we can't really create sub-articles without rather better referencing, so we either just cut, or move material to this talk page. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:10, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Where does this material come from?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Currently, this article is the redirect for Germanic heroic legend. However, not all Germanic heroic poetry is written in alliterative verse (namely, none of the Middle High German material such as the Nibelungenlied or the Legends about Theoderic the Great) and not all poetry in alliterative verse is Germanic heroic poetry (the poems of the Alliterative Revival in England, such as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight or the Alliterative Morte d'Arthur).
I would like to propose creating a separate article for Germanic heroic poetry that addresses this descrepancy. I'm an expert in the Middle High German material, however my knowledge of the Norse and Old English traditions is rather limited. Anyone who's watching this article who would like to help me fill the gaps would be welcome to. In addition, the current (extremely outdated) article Germanic heroic age would be folded into the article for Germanic heroic poetry (currently it is the redirect for that title).--Ermenrich (talk) 15:54, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to argue with this. This article hasn't (and shouldn't have) any scope for discussion of the content of the poeems - it's just about versification.--Pfold (talk) 12:16, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: My thinking at the moment is that I'll try to set up a basic article for Germanic heroic poetry as soon as a page for the Nibelungenklage has been created which is (I think) the last major gap in Wikipedia's coverage of MHG heroic epic. The page ought to include a section explaining the Germanic heroic age and then probably sections for England, Scandinavia, and Germany, then a brief section on modern reception (most of this can go under the individual poems). Probably a section on the late medieval/early modern heroic ballad is also in order. The page ought to include links to at least the most notable heroic poems as well, as well as to features such as alliterative verse. I guess the next question is whether to refer to it as "Germanic heroic poetry" or "Germanic heroic legend". The latter could also include sagas and snippets mentioned in chronicle sources.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:19, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germanic Heroic Poetry 

message: This article was once Featured. If it were to be featured as anything today, it'd be as an example. The topic is obviously notable, or it'd have been deleted for lack of citations. Let's see if we can't together get it into a more or less decent state (GA would be too much to hope for just yet). I know it's a quaint old-fashioned idea, but we actually have to build articles using reliable sources. Come on, let's get to it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Working on it. I've only done the introduction, thus far. Will try to work my way through the whole article over time. PDDeane (talk) 03:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Correction: Article completely redone, with related edits done on Alliteration and Old Norse Poetry. After verification, I think this site may be ready for featured status again. PDDeane (talk) 04:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article ... 

message: Not mentioned in article. Equinox ◑ 07:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Dróttkvætt without the hyphen is a separate section in this article. This is not a problem. PDDeane (talk) 15:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: However, after my revision drottkvaeet should be redirected to point to Old Norse Poetry ... PDDeane (talk) 00:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does "drott-kvaett" redirect here? 

message: I have just completed a top-to-bottom revision of this article. Please take a look. PDDeane (talk) 04:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article revised