Talk:International Phonetic Alphabet/Archive 4

message: *Why not delegate some of the more complex sections into sub-articles, such as Types of International Phonetic Alphabet transcriptions? --  Denelson83  03:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would write ˌʔɪntəˈnæʃənəl or even ˌʔɪntʰəˈnæʃənəl — that is more precise. Oh, and the current version is not quite right as well: there is a tilde floating on the ɾ, but it should instead be on the ɪ, of course. — N-true 00:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: [ɾ̃] indicates it is an "n" pronounced with the tongue in the position of "ɾ." To clarify, I'll use an example from Wikipedia's article on American english: Both intervocalic /nt/ and /n/ may be realized as [n] or [ɾ̃], making "winter" and "winner" homophones. This does not occur when the second syllable is stressed, as in "entail." Also, [ʔ] is only pronounced at the beginning of the word when it is the initial word of the sentence, or sometimes when the preceding word ended in a vowel, so we should either put the glottal stop in parentheses or neglect it completely.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 00:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I'm putting our question about "international"'s pronounciation up at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 00:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think the l (ell) in the RP pronunciation of "international" is velarized. I'm pretty sure it's just . At any rate, it's less velarized than the American version. (Sorry I didn't point this out earlier.) --Siva 02:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You need to include the stress marks in those two transcriptions.  I would write them as  and . --  Denelson83  20:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Add more ideas here

message: The principle of formation doesn't say what happens if phonemes in different languages partially overlap. Are in that case phonemes added for every possible conjunction? -- Dissident (Talk) 01:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by phonemes in different languages "partially overlapping"? Could you give an example? --Siva 17:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Phonemes are sets of sounds or phones, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine a situation where a phoneme in one language and a phoneme in another language share phones, but also both have phones that don't occur in the other phoneme. -- Dissident (Talk) 18:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I can imagine that. But has that ever happened? I mean, it could well be the case that what you just described happens so infrequently that the IPA hasn't bothered to deal with it. (Note: I don't really know the distinction between a phone and a phoneme, so I'm not the person most capable of answering your question, short of your giving an example.) --Siva 22:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's easy coming up with languages that differ in which phonetic dimensions are considered phonologically significant. For example, English differentiates between voiced and voiceless consonants, but ignores glottalization and aspiration. This is in opposition to Aymara. Of course, the sheer number of languages taken into account probably makes the whole point of moot, resolving every partial overlap between phonemes. -- Dissident (Talk) 21:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "selective" phonetic alphabet 

message: I've done some changes today, but I'd like an update on what else needs to be made. Sorry I haven't worked on this in a few weeks...I had an unsuccessful RFA and some stuff outside of wikipedia. In my mind,
* The section on "Usage" has been removed, and needs to be rewritten. After all, what's the good of describing something if you don't even mention how it's used?
* We need to explain what things like "Suprasegmentals" and "Intonations" are, because the average reader has no idea. We've been doing this a bit, which is good, but I'd like some input on specific sections that need to be rewritten. After all, a featured article has to be written in "brilliant prose." Any suggestions on specific areas that need to be de-jargonized?
* I'm considering putting this up as a good article, to serve as a sort of cheackpoint for our improvement drive. Any suggestions on what should be done before the nom, or any objections?
Thanks, The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 23:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you dig up an easy way for a layperson to get IPA pronuncation for wikipedia I'll do a full review of the article. :) -Ravedave 03:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait....you want the pronunciation of the word wikipedia? I'm confused :-S The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 16:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh.....they could take it to the language reference desk. Perhaps some sort of wikiproject should be started to standardise IPA transcriptions in articles. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 23:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  hah no, I mean an easy way for people to get IPA pronuciations onto articles in wikipedia. -Ravedave 23:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I gave it a review anyways, see review below :). After that stuff is fixed this article is a gauronteed GA. -Ravedave 05:47, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update of cleanup/perhaps a good article 

message: ::I want to preface the following debate to say that it demonstrates a tremendous bias toward the English language in general.  There is a mention of Spanish, but in point of fact, any pronunciation of a word within a single language is linguistic chauvinism.  My personal preference would be to create a chart of the IPA words for mother that babies use worldwide during early language acquisition.  Such charts illustrate the innate relatedness of human speech mechanics while simultaneously demonstrating the distinctions of acquisition peculiar to different languages.  Forgive my verbosity, many ideas come to mind that I've meant to share over the years. I've used the IPA article perhaps a thousand times!
  
::I've spent 80% of my life living outside my "home nation," and thus consider myself international.  My sense is that the IPA (or something better) needs to become globally standardized and supplant all other pronunciation symbologies.  It seems that young students everywhere (somewhere around 7 to 10 years of age depending on the complexities of their own language) should be formally introduced highest frequency IPA subset within their first (or an academic) language.  This could later expand to include all the sounds within their native language(s) and later sitll to the entire IPA.  
::Returning to babies for a moment, linguists might produce a movie (or even just an audio file) capturing speech throughout the world.  If a truly excellent movie were produced that captured native speakers speaking short words and phrases while real-time highlighting an IPA transcription of the speech then learners worldwide could use this as a reference standard.  It could also be compiled on to a DVD to expose infants and young children to these ideas early (and ideally often!)
::The IPA is certainly a wonderful tool for people in many professions, but isn't it's greatest promise the simplification of communication and language learning?  While it's useful to refine and improve this article, I feel it needs to be made more accessible to the non-linguist with greater interactivity and subdivision on to numerous, more manageable wiki entries.
::As a teacher, I have relied on it heavily in Korea, China, Germany, Poland, Austria, Turkey and across Africa.  What I find most maddening is that dictionary publishers aren't convinced of its value.
:Saseigel 06 SEP 2006 1932GMT (Herrieden, Bayern, Bundesrepublik Deutschland)
Well, we do mention the sounds as represented with other languages. However, the topic is for the English Wikipedia, so most of the examples should be in English. While many English speakers know different languages, it's hard to guess which languages they know. We know they know English, because they're reading the English article. If I tranaslated this article onto the French Wikipedia, I'd probably make most of the examples French, or if was a chinese-language article, I'd write it in Hanzi. It's necessary to relate the topic to your audience. I agree that we need to cover this topic better, but this is already a huge article. More sub-articles would be a better idea. Maybe even a wikiproject devoted to the IPA. But if you want to appeal to teachers, language-immersion companies, et cetera, a wiki article isn't the best place to start. It informs those who want to know, but it does not say why the alphabet is better or worse than another phonetic one (that would probably violate NPOV to some degree). Personally, I also would like to see IPA used a lot more in education (it helped me with learning). The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 02:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New discussion

message: The following suggestions for this article were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.
*Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
**Most dates are linked, but seeing as how the article is not clogged with links this shouldn't be a problem. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 02:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Automated peer review 

message: I reviewd the article, here are my thoughs both as a layman, and trying to write a good article. 
*"The alphabet is intended to provide a standardized, accurate and unique representation for every sound element in human language, that is distinguished as a phone or a phoneme."
** Confusing sentance, phone and phoneme might need to be defined.
***Changed
* "History of the IPA" should be "History of the International Phonetic Alphabet" since there is the International Phonetic Association, which shares the same initals.  It has been changed simply to History
*"The general principle of the IPA is to provide a separate symbol for each speech segment, avoiding letter combinations (digraphs) such as sh and th in English orthography, and avoiding ambiguity such as that of c in English."
** Run-on sentance, doesn't explain what the segments are in.. english? all languages?
***Seperated into a bulleted list by Skal for better comprehension
* Making the reader understand the difference between Phonetic and Phonemic near the beginnign will probably increase thier udnerstanding of the rest of the article
*"See the articles for ad hoc symbols found in the literature." 
**what does that mean?
***Ad hoc is a common latin term meaning "After the fact"....here, it means they were made after the discovery that the particular sound existed.
****No, that's "post facto".  Ad hoc means "for this purpose". --  Denelson83  23:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My review 

message: I've written a bit about the history of IPA's use in dictionaries, at Pronunciation respelling for English, with a couple of online references.  Might be useful for this article.  Cheers.  —Michael Z. 2006-08-17 08:01 Z
:Go ahead and add what you can. Just cite it. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Hi. Can anyone provide a reference supporting the assertion that the symbol for the pharyngeal fricative  was inspired by an Arabic letter? --Siva 02:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pharyngeal fricative 

message: I have two sources about the features and use (or lack thereof) of IPA in handwriting. One is the IPA handbook itself, the other is from The World's Writing systems. My questions are....
# Is this notable? Where should it go? I don't want to just "slap it in" somewhere.
# I have an image from the book, but is a table of handwritten letters copyrighted? As I recall, it is impossible to copyright a writing system, but I don't where this falls. Should I redo it in my own handwriting?
Thanks. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 21:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my humble opinion it's not necessary to add this to the article, as there is no standard for writing IPA in handwriting at all. A picture or a table wouldn't help anyone, because everyone would develop their own way of handwritten IPA. — N-true 23:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it was the "official" handwriting sample released with the 1949 IPA. But I suppose you are right. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 23:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Handwritten IPA 

message: Where around the web can you hear the audio
after entering the phonetic notation?... for example IPA
ˈkaɪ.boʊ
Reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibo
Shouldn't the article have audiofiles for each letter?  Are audio files supported by Wikipedia?  An article on phonetics without audio seems rather pointless to me.  It would be like having an article on Cubism without any image files.Flarity 00:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The audio files in question are already in the articles for the individual letters. --  Denelson83  01:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to get audio for phonetic notation 

message: I don't fully understand this:
The IPA is also not universal among dictionaries in other countries and languages. Mass-market Czech multilingual dictionaries, for instance, tend to use the IPA only for sounds not found in the Czech language, due to the current incapability of rendering ř in the IPA correctly.
What mass-market Czech multilingual dictionaries are meant? Those published and sold in the Czech Republic or those in other countries? In English-Czech dictionaries published for Czech users, it it obvious that the phonetic transcription uses the Czech alphabet (e.g. š instead of , č instead of  etc. - cheese [či:z]). Only those symbols for the sounds not existing in Czech are borrowed from IPA: . Some symbols are replaced by letters that denote near sounds in Czech, e.g. home [houm] instead of . However, better dictionaries give some comments on the differences in pronuciation in English and Czech. The transcription described above is used because it is more understandable for Czech users than more precise IPA characters.
--Pajast 16:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use in dictionaries 

message: The chart says "[x] = intervocalic <x> in modern Spanish". But that's not really true. <x> used to stand for [x] in Spanish, but except for the word México, <x> almost never stands for [x] in modern Spanish; it's been taken over by <j> (even Don Quixote is now Don Quijote in Spanish). Usually Spanish <x> is [ks] (existir, máximo, oxígeno, etc.). The only language I can think of that uses the Latin alphabet in which <x> regularly stands for [x] is Azerbaijani. User:Angr 20:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The section tries to explain why the choices were made back in 1886. Back then spelling words with "x" and pronounced /x/ was more common. Or is it just the likeness to Greek χ. −Woodstone 20:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know when the Spanish spelling reform was. Was it more recent than 1886? At any rate, even if "x" was still often used for /x/ in Spanish in 1886, I seriously doubt that was the reason for using the symbol "x" for the voiceless velar fricative. Pullum and Ladusaw's Phonetic Symbol Guide says the source of the IPA symbol "x" is the Cyrillic alphabet (which of course is also the source for using "x" for /x/ in Azerbaijani); that seems most likely. User:Angr 06:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish x 

message: I'm contemplating on whether or not we should put the images of the symbols in their respective sections instead of merely providing a link. Any support or opposition? The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 21:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we'd lose the direct links.  Besides, we already have an image of the full IPA chart up at the top of this article. --  Denelson83  07:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images? 

message: Is there any way to minimize this and move it into the unicode page? I'm afraid to touch it. I don't really understand some of it (or at least why it is so relevant to the topic). Perhaps it could be moved into Unicode and HTML. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 00:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[International_Phonetic_Alphabet#Unicode_and_tonal_symbols]] 

message: I'm again removing the line about why most Czech dictionaries don't use IPA. Even if the letter "ř" would be an issue, that would not explain why Czech dictionaries use š, č, etc. in pronunciations instead of the IPA equivalents. If you can find evidence that the lack of a symbol for the "ř" sound in the IPA is the sole reason for the limited use of IPA in Czech dictionaries, fine. But until then, I'd rather not speculate on the publishers' motives. -- Mwalcoff 15:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree with this. And I'm adding this: Czech ř  is not syllabic r , it is the raised alveolar non-sonorant trill which is regarded as an individual phoneme in Czech (see Alveolar trill). The reasons why Czech dictionaries use characters as š, č instead of the IPA equivalents I wrote above. --Pajast 06:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ř and IPA 

message: IPA is a GOOD ARTICLE. Really it should be a Featured Article. This is an excellent article! I must have used this page hundreds of times. Whenever I've needed to clarify some obscure information involving the IPA, I have ALWAYS found a satisfying answer here. I couldnt do this unless this was a robust top-notch article. Whatever future improvements there may yet be, they shouldnt distract from the excellence that the article has achieved so far! --Haldrik 19:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are still some referencing problems, and some other unseen obstructions. I'm about to open a peer review. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IPA is a GOOD ARTICLE

message: Please comment. --Karnesky 15:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested change in redirect for IPA from International Phonetic Alphabet to IPA (disambiguation) 

message: What purpose does :Image:IPA_chart_2005.png serve in the article except to occupy space? Everything on it is already contained in the article, and its contents are already too tiny to be usefully readable. Duja 09:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's useful. Not all browsers display the IPA characters correctly (new IE7, for instance). And I appreciate the possibility to see and print the official IPA chart in one image. --Pajast 09:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: Dear Wikipedians,
We apreciate your valuable contribution in article named Wikipedia:Indic transliteration scheme on english WIkipedia.
We at Marathi Language wikipedia do not have enough expertise to update IPA related info in our article, specialy we have been unable to import/update IPA templates and do not know how to use IPA symbols.Please click here-this link- to provide help to update "IPA transliteration for Indic Languages" article for  Marathi wikipedia
We seek and request for help in updating above mentioned article and would like to know relevant resources and refferences in respect of Devanagari and IPA .
Thanks and Regards
Mahitgar 16:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Seeking help and contribution

message: In grade school, I was not taught IPA.  Rather, teachers used traditional English only symbols associated with individual letters.  "face" might be written as "fāse".  I do not know the IPA equivilent. Will (Talk - contribs) 03:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: /fe(ɪ)s/. --  Denelson83  04:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Can you explain what you mean by "language dependent version"? The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 16:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh. Well, dictionary transcriptions like that differ from resource to resource, but you can look at International Phonetic Alphabet for English for some help. Come to think of it, it may be a good idea to create an article in the Help: mainspace dealing with the IPA on wikipedia. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 19:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with using IPA in EN pages 

message: I went ahead and removed this section, since it's basically a note about browser compatiblity expanded way too much. The section should probably go in Unicode and HTML or something like that. Although, I am not sure where it should go in another article. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 16:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Section removed

message: Something should be included on CJK languages and pinyin. There should also be a comparison between IPA and the Pinyin table.70.111.238.17 15:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it shouldn't. The Pinyin article uses IPA transcription, but there's no reason the IPA article should discuss Pinyin. Angr 16:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There are many ways to transliterate things into the Roman alphabet, and pinyin's vowels aren't even vary phonetic (compare the "i" in "qi" to "zi"). The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 17:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  CJK and Pinyin 

message: I would say this article is ready to be noiminated for GA. Before FA is attempted I would reccommend either addressing (and striking through) or commenting on my reccomendations above. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Twards GA