Talk:Rust

message: Rust
a : the reddish brittle coating formed on iron especially when chemically attacked by moist air and composed essentially of a hydrated ferric oxide
b : a comparable coating produced on a metal other than iron by corrosion
Rust is a generic term that most people use when they actually mean "Iron Rust". lets not confuse people by using the "common" word as law. i think the wording in certain areas should be more specific.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.248.205.238 (talk) 18:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: definition

message: this section needs a redo. The aluminum foil method is junk science and real methods of removing rust (electrolysis,mechanical,ultrasonic,galvanic,phosphoric acid...)get no mention. There is no way a fast redox reaction could happen between aluminum and iron oxide by rubbing something with aluminum foil. A fast reaction is possible, and otherwise known as thermite, but it occurs well above the melting point of iron. I also highly doubt any substantial amount of foil is turned into aluminum oxide because the passivisation layer forms ridiculously quickly.  
I agree. If no-one objects let's delete the junk science section. 86.62.15.190 (talk) 08:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: rust removal

message: Can Someone help me?  I am doing a science fair project about rust.  I was wondering if anyone had any information on "do certain liquids cause rust to speed up or slowdown."  I am testing 4 different substances, Bleach, H2O, Salt water, and vinegar.  Does anyone know if any of these have an affect?  Also any statistics would greatly help! ~ Ryan
Ryan- You may want to check different percentages of solutions also. For example, a 3% solution of sodium chloride (salt) and water is the most corrosive compared to ocean water that's at 5%. ~ LarryB
ryan- so far on my project vinegar was the fastest to increase the speed of rust... 34.67 seconds!!-brianna  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.236.208.41 (talk) 01:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rusting process speed 

message: ryan- i just did a project on rust and when iron wool is put into vinegar, it completely disintegrates it. water reaction happens fastest though and salt water happens before the vinegar too. i dunno about bleach though. hope that helps! ~liz
sure i can help you rust is browny colour  
i am also doing a science fiar project about rust and i need help!!!- brianna
i am doing a science project on which one would rust a nail the fastest : vinger , water , orange juice, or soda and i need some resorces. please help me !- lauren  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.106.67.217 (talk) 18:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vinegar 

message: I'm very confused. cathodic protection is protecting rust, but it says that it protects water which obviously isn't subject to rust, it actually makes the process faster. Can anyone tell me about cathodic protection, as I don't understand it. Thanks - Oh P.S Ryan - H2O and salt will make it go faster , unsure bout others. Thanks - Leila
:What you have written makes no sense.  Why would anyone want to protect rust?  Please read the article carefully, and then ask any questions here carefully. Please quote the sentence that you don't understand, and please start a new section.  (And it is bad science to start with a presumption that something will happen, best to actually measure whether salt affects the speed of iron corrosion) --njh 08:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording confusing?

message: I do not know if this is an original idea, but i find it puzzling that no one as far as i know have suggested that rubbing rusted surfaces with a pencil can actually remove some of the rust and make the item useful again.
I stumbled on this unique property of pencil to remove rust on a scissors that was rusted when i was conducting a seminar. I wanted to use the scissors but could not use it because it was stuck. Not only that the entire blades had rust all over them. Since the only thing i had was a pencil, i started rubbing it on the blade surfaces and lo and behold the rust started to disappear! I thought the pencil lead was just covering the rust, but when i wiped it with a tissue - the rust was really removed. Not only that, when i started rubbing the areas close to the rivet holding the two blades together, the blades started to slide easier.
Within 5 mins. of doing the rubbing or more of writing over the rust, the scissor become operational. Wow! that really felt good.
This is why i want to share this with the rest of the readers of Wiki. Find more useful ways and techniques for using pencils to remove rust or stains on other items.
Mario A. Diaz 06:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are at least two things happening here: the graphite is abrading away the loose rust flakes, and secondly providing a lubricant.  I would find 'colouring' a rusting tool with a graphite pencil rather tiresome, so I just use a 'brill pad' (scotchbrite sort of thing) and a bit of machine oil.  --njh 12:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pencil can remove rust on certain items 

message: 1. Chemically, rust is not iron oxide Fe2O3. It is Fe2O3.xH2O, in other words a hydrated form of Fe2O3 with a variable amount of water and an unspecified crystal structure somewhere between amorphous and that of true Fe2O3.
2. Rusting is an electrochemical reaction, and for it to take place four conditions must be fulfilled simultaneously:
   
2.1: there must be present two phases in the rusting solid, such as ferrite (chemically, Fe) and cementite (chemically, Fe3C, Iron carbide. Iron with a very low carbon content (C<=0.02%) rarely ever does contain cementite and therefore is virtually rust-proof. Iron with higher carbon levels, and that includes all steels, has (with a few exceptions, such as martensitic steels), plenty of cementite and thus can rust freely. There is no need for non-rusting steel to contain the high percentages of chromium and nickel typical of stainless steel.
   
2.2: There must be liquid water in contact with the solid.
   
2.3: This water must contain an electrolyte (e.g. sodium chloride) at a sufficiently high concentration to enable a visible reaction rate.
 
2.4: In this water, there must be dissolved a sufficient level of oxygen to enable a visible amount of reaction.
The mechanism of rusting is thus: 
Since the concentration of iron atoms is different in cementite and ferrite, and because they are physically apart, a (electrochemical) battery is formed between the two (or any other two phases with different iron concentrations (for the purist, with different iron activities). The reaction at the cathode is
Fe = Fe++ + 2e-   (The iron metal is oxidised into an iron(II) ion and two electrons)
This battery is shorted in the metallic solid, so that the current flowing is determined by the electrolyte concentration (for the purist, the electrolyte conductivity) in the water. At the anode, there are several reactions competing with each other:
e- + H2O = H + OH-   (each electron releases one proton. Since the proton is very small, it can penetrate into the metal, recombine at a porosity with another proton to form a hydrogen molecule H2, which is too big to be mobile, and thus lead to hydrogen embrittlement.
4 OH- + O2 = 2 H2O2 + 4 e-
H2O2 + 2 Fe++ = 2 Fe+++ + 2 OH-
Fe+++ + 3 OH- = Fe(OH)3      Since Fe(OH)3 has a low solubility, it precipitates in the form of a yellowish amorphous substance.
Amorphous Fe(OH)3 can then shed some water and start to crystallise. When fully crystalline, red hematite (Fe2O3) will have formed. Since this requires substantial amounts of diffusion to have taken place, actual rust is somewhere in between, neither pure Fe(OH)3, nor pure Fe2O3.
3. If the rust does not flake off, the thicker the rust layer gets the more difficult it is for the Fe ions to move to the anode. Rust formation then slowly kills itself. This is the secret behind alloys such as CorTen (TM) which show substantial resistance against rusting through, but are not stainless.
196.208.73.26 20:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rust chemical makeup 

message: "Rusting is a common term for corrosion, and usually is corrosion of steel."
No it is not "usually corrosion of steel".   It is the oxidation of iron atoms.  It might be seen more frequently in the material we call steel, assuming it is true that untreated steel is more common than untreated iron.  
Well done Wikipedia.  This is one of the most elementary of science topics and you guys have managed royally to screw it up in the first few lines.  God only knows what you are doing with anything more complicated.
80.4.39.7 10:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, I reworded it a bit. It sounds like you have a lot of good suggestions. Please feel free to edit the article accordingly. —Ben FrantzDale 23:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This has to qualify as one of the most moronic statements in a supposedly "scientific" Wikipedia Page 

message: In view of the comments here and in recent reversed edits to the article, I've asked for the help of an expert on chemistry. The main question seems to be which of these formulae is correct:
Fe3+ + 3 OH- = Fe(OH)3 - as in subhead 2.4 above by 196.208.73.26
or
Fe2+ + 2 OH- = Fe(OH)2 - as in the article.
Smalljim 11:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the overall reaction. I don't know anything about the mechanism, but it doesn't sound implausible that Fe(II) is an intermediate. --Itub 09:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert needed 

message: One notable exception to the continuing process of rusting is a steel called 'Cor-Ten'. It forms a continuous, nonflaking surface of rust that strongly inhibits further degradation.
LorenzoB 03:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rust Prevention 

message: The Chemistry of rust was too concise and insufficient. I added a great deal more - however, if anyone disagrees with me they can simply revert to the older information. I'm just trying to help out, since for the past four years Wikipedia has been my number one source for research information (which really shows that i'm a very lazy person to look anywhere else.) Dhabih | talk | fictionwikia 14:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chemical Theory 

message: Hey, this page was blanked. I reverted it so I could read it. If that's wrong, oh well.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.144.109.183 (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unblanked 

message: Not really important but just wondering about the current arrangement for the sections. I'm just thinking: shouldn't Chemical reactions be the first subtitle, followed by Economic impact, then only Rust preventions? Any comments will be appreciated, thanks. — Yurei-eggtart 16:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sections 

message: Question: how come there is no mention of impurities like copper that results in the cathode being inert? Isn't that an important topic to talk about? Impurities affect the rusting of iron, does it not? 99.227.114.113 (talk) 05:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: Nothing about rust and health. Is it OK to drink water with rust in it? --Henri de Solages (talk) 10:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree and maybe a word about Tetanus?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.2.45.245 (talk) 09:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

text: There is absolutely no connection between rust and tetanus - another old wives' tale hits the dust.Rust is an oxide or iron, Tetanus is a suite of symptoms experienced following an infection with Clostridium tetani.  Velella  Velella Talk   18:16, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Health

message: I think some redistribution of text between Rust, Rustproofing and Rust removal is needed.  Biscuittin (talk) 16:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that Rustproofing be re-named Rust prevention and removal and that "Rust removal" (which is currently part of the phosphoric acid article) be merged with it. Biscuittin (talk) 22:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tidy up needed 

message: I worked as a chemist for an industrial testing laboratory. Part of our job was determining cause of failure and precise legal description for the subsequent lawsuit.
Rust http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rust
1 a : the reddish brittle coating formed on iron especially when chemically attacked by moist air and composed essentially of hydrated ferric oxide b : a comparable coating produced on a metal other than iron by corrosion c : something resembling rust : accretion
2 : corrosive or injurious influence or effect
 
1.) Corrosion occurs to almost all metals. Rusting is a peculiar type of corrosion specific to Iron and its Alloys. Although Aluminum can corrode in this same manner, it is not called Rust. 
2.) In acidic (pH < 4) solution, Iron (and Steel of course) dissolves, like other other metals with Electronegative  E.M F., giving 2 electrons to H+ (protons) to form H2 (Hydrogen gas) and dissolving a Ferrous ion (Fe+2)(actually in solution this is (Fe(H2O)6)+2. At the start, the entire exposed Metal surface dissolves at the same rate. 
3a.) Ferrous Hydroxide (kSP ~~ 10-15 is slightly soluble in water about 1.5 grams per Liter (same as Calcium Carbonate) which is similar to the solubility of Magnesium Hydroxide (Ferrous and Magnesium ions can trade places in many minerals).
3b.) "Ferric Hydroxide" (kSP ~~ 10-39 is nearly insoluble and removes itself from the thermodynamic equilibrium and driving the reaction. From about pH 3 through pH 5.5 hydrated Ferric ions deprotonate and then polymerize by sharing bridging hydroxide anions. Starting from (Fe(H2O)6)+3 to (Fe(H2O)5(OH)1)+2 then (Fe(H2O)4(OH)2)+1 then neutral species and polymerization by bridging Oxo anions like {(Fe(H2O)2(OH)2)(OH)2(Fe(H2O)2(OH)2)}
4.) In neutral (or pH > 6) or alkaline solutions the corrosion proceeds by 1.) Iron going into solution as Ferrous (+2) ions in pits where Oxygen is not present (Ferrous Hydroxide is oxidized to Ferric Hydroxide outide of the pit) and 2.) electrons donated by the Iron dissolution are donated to Oxygen molecules (O2 + 4 H2O + 4 e- = 4 OH-) at the large external surface, an electrochemical corrosion. The electromotive force (voltage) generated by the Oxygen is equivalent to the Iron being in contact with a metal higher on the EMF scale.
Shjacks45 (talk) 00:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perhaps a knowledgeable or thoughtful person  should take over this page? 

message: The two sub-sections 'Oxidation of iron metal' and 'Associated reactions' seem to be duplicating information. They both mention that salts can increase the rate of corrosion. Also, some of the statements in 'Oxidation of iron metal' seem to be contradictory. For example: "As with other metals, like aluminium, a tightly adhering oxide coating, a passivation layer, protects the bulk iron from further oxidation" and "Unlike iron oxides, iron oxides are not passivating because these materials do not adhere to the bulk metal".
Iron doesn't behave like aluminium and and is not protected from further oxidation, so I think that statement needs to go. I'm not sure what was meant by the second statement, it may be a typo. 
I think 'Oxidation of iron metal' is probably superfluous, but I don't want to wade in and start re-editing without discussion, since I may have misunderstood the original editor's intended meaning. However, if there are no comments or objections I will revise it. I don't have the referenced source to check it, does anyone else? I have other corrosion texts I can refer to if not. Apau98 (talk) 06:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chemical reactions 

message: The very last link ("How do you remove and prevent flash rust on stainless steel") appears to be link spam stuffed into a whole bunch of pages related to corrosion. I haven't time to actually make fixes, but I hope this brings it to someone's attention -- search finds them easily..  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.114.132.171 (talk) 00:20, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spam 

message: Hi, I found out from the technical sales guy at Dessicare that the oxygen busters that they use in food products have iron in them which oxidises over time and then becomes Iron Oxide II and Iron Oxide III - I would like to know if this can be added to soil in my garden (and everyone's gardens) and if it is fine to do so. The main purpose is to promote some reuse of the oxygen busters (but cutting them open to get the iron out) as the are so prolific now and I hate that they cannot be recycled at all. Any help appreciated. Plmoknqwerty (talk) 09:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: oxides in oxygen busters ?

message: Back when I was touring egypt in 2006 on camel-back there was a sandstorm and we (me and my camel 'driver' ) were separated from the group and for 3 weeks we wondered lonely in the desert. On the 4 day in the evening I noticed rust like substance on the camels foot. I thought nothing of it and went to sleep but I was awoken in the wee hours of the morning by the 'driver' hurriedly sanding the camel using a rock. It turns out that the silica composition of the sand and the highly alkali blood of the camel caused its skin to rust. Aparently all animals can rust, given the right conditions.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.91.102 (talk) 15:47, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The desert 

message: Could we use this? It really shows what rust can do because there's no dirt on it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replacing the rusted bolt image 

message: Can anyone change the first sentence so it actually explains what rust is? (I would do this myself but I'm not too clear.) George8211what did I do wrong now? 19:09, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening sentence 

message: I want to add the formula of rusting in the rusting page. Taneesh Yeet (talk) 13:49, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 13:57, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2019