Talk:Skowronek (horse)

message: Editors might agree or disagree with this based on their perspective. To make this most neutral, everyone can agree that he was a stallion. This way there is no disagreement if he was a purebred or partbred horse. Arguing over a single word is not particularly useful. 
Arabhorseguy (talk) 07:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire first paragraph is the lead - it doesn't NEED references if the information is referenced in the body of the article. See WP:LEAD. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:57, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether he was registered or not--yeah, I know he was--he was an Arabian. Saying he's registered in the lead and infobox doesn't add anything, and I've never seen a horse article written that way. We normally put the stuff about registration in with the background information in the first section. White Arabian Filly Neigh 21:25, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Skowronek an Arabian horse? 

message: Editors that disagree with this section might consider to add well supported content which refutes this. Writing in CAPS about various "DISCLAIMERS" is not useful and not in the spirit of Wikipedia. 
Arabhorseguy (talk) 07:52, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable Ancestors 

message: Skowronek 
(Purebred Arabian)
GSB #552
Color: Grey (White)   
Sex: Stallion
Foaled: 1909
Sire: Ibrahim (Heijer x Lafitte)
Dam: Jaskolka (Rymnik x Epopeja)
Breeder: Count Joseph Potocki. Antoniny Stud.
Poland (Russia)
Meaning of Name: Polish word for "Skylark", an Eurasian lark famed for its melodious song. 
Sire of 48 registered purebred Arabian foals including his sons Naseem, *Raffles, and *Raseyn, and his daughters *Incoronata, *Rifala, and *Rossana.
 Skowronek was the single, sole radical outcross introduced into Crabbet's breeding program in the stud's entire history. He was foaled at Count Potocki's Antoniny Stud in Poland; however at that time Antoniny was held by the Russians, so technically Skowronek was born in Russia. He was imported into England in 1913, brought over by Mr. Walter Winans, who used him as a model for his sculptures and paintings. Mr. Walter Winans then sold him to his friend Mr. Webb-Ware who used him as a hack. Mr. Webb-Ware later sold him to Mr. H. V. Musgrave Clark, under whose ownership Skowronek initiated his show and breeding career. Lady Wentworth acquired him from Mr. Clark in 1920; Skowronek was by then 11 years old. Lady Wentworth campaigned him in earnest and he began to win championships; she also began breeding him to her Crabbet mares.
Skowronek, one of the great stallions of the breed and one with world-wide influence, was an entirely different type of Arabian horse than those previously used at Crabbet. Whereas the Crabbet Arabians were often apt to be dry and reachy, with good shoulders and forehands, and sometimes with good size, but might lack in smoothness, strength, and correctness through the loins, hindquarters and hind legs, Skowronek was a small, more compact, strongly built horse of a different classic type. He did not have the forehand qualities possessed by many of the Crabbet Arabians, but Skowronek definitely brought in the back, hindquarter, and hind leg improvement some Crabbet Arabians needed ~ and he was very strong in passing on his good qualities in these areas, as well as amazingly prepotent in stamping his get with his own type. Maturing to an alabaster white color, he proved an outstanding cross with nearly all the Crabbet mares to whom he was put; the blending of Skowronek with the Crabbet bloodlines proved one of the most auspicious nicks ever made, and the results have had tremendous positive influence through much of the Arabian horse breeding world. Skowronek died in February 1930, but the effects of this blending and his legacy are still seen going forward in his descendants of today.
Highly recommended for further study on Skowronek and his role and place within the CMK Heritage:
Skowronek (3 Pages with an Extensive Photo Collection) by Eva Danø.
Skowronek by Carol Mulder. From The Crabbet Influence May/June 1989 issue and Collectors Vol. 1, 1992.
"A Brief History of the Founding of Crabbet Stud" by Carol W. Mulder. The Arabian Horse Journal, August 1, 1983.
 ArabHorseResearch (talk) 06:29, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skowronek 

message: Sources that cannot be claimed as irrefutable proof should not be posted on a public information page. It is knowingly deceitful and fosters agenda driven propaganda. The only vandalism cited on Skowronek's page is the blatant lies about his heritage.  ArabHorseResearch (talk) 06:33, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm going to jump in here as an editor who has been working on horse articles for a couple of years and add my two cents. We don't devote huge sections of the article to short choppy sentences covering a controversy. If there is a controversy, we discuss both sides and move on. The majority of the article should discuss the horse's life and show/racing career, breeding career and influence he had on the Arabian breed, which is huge. Maybe there is a question over whether he was a completely pure Arab, but they didn't have DNA back then and that's fairly common. He's accepted as an ancestor by all the Arab registries I know of, and as far as I'm concerned that means he was an Arabian horse. White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:20, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact vs. Fiction 

message: The man who bred Skowronek : Count Jozef Potocki : the great Polish breeders and Arabian horses of Slawuta, Bialocerkiew, Antoniny
By Andrew K. Steen
ISBN 10: 8460723690
ISBN 13: 9788460723691
I have read this book cover to cover several times and carefully studied the footnotes. It is notable that the author freely admits Skowronek has non Arabian blood in his pedigree. If you have a copy of it perhaps you can dig up some references that would give more information on Skowronek. 
Arabhorseguy (talk) 07:10, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: These books can be looked at individually for reliability. Really, at the root of this whole debate is the endless discussion over the "purity" of all Polish-bred Arabians between the Al-Khamsa crowd and the rest of the world.  Which is outside the scope of Wikipedia.  Montanabw(talk) 19:48, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Minor correction - The Crabbet Influence book is a collection of articles from 1983 to 2003, many of them on early horses.  It does focus on the bloodline group that includes Skowronek, and has several very good articles on his offspring as well as further descendants.
Gladys Brown Edwards also has written a good bit about Skowronek and his sire line, although I would say he was not quite her type of horse.  I need to dig out my copy of War Horse to Show Horse and see what else I can find.
CrabbetGirl (talk) 12:42, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We've got all that and we already use Edwards.  I have a copy.  Edwards was a scholar and as such was critical of everything (LOL), she was neutral and really good at cutting through the romantic hype that has always plagued research on the breed.  I reverted to what it was before all this drama started and we can work forward from there. Montanabw(talk) 22:19, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further Reading 

message: ARABIAN HORSE REGISTRY Accepts this Horse as PUREBRED as does WAHO The World Arabian Horse Registry-above comments are erronous-presenting false information -can and will be used in a court of law against persons involved.
 184.53.49.207 (talk) 14:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DRAGON BOOSTER  ★ 15:53, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2018 

message: ARABIAN HORSE REGISTRY Accepts this Horse as PUREBRED as does WAHO The World Arabian Horse Registry-above comments are erronous-presenting false information -can and will be used in a court of law against persons involved.
 184.53.49.207 (talk) 14:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DRAGON BOOSTER  ★ 15:53, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2018 

message: In an effort to try to work together to produce content among people who hold very different views on Skowronek I suggest focusing on areas where everyone can agree. The evidence on his descendants is uncontroversial and well documented. I propose the content below which all comes from Steen's book on Skowronek on page 179 which has a compelte list of his offspring. 
The current content which is not referenced at all should be deleted completely and replaced by the following: 
"Skowronek sired 40 horses including 19 stallions and 21 mares born over 8 years from 1920 to 1928. (Steen 179)
Male offspring that were exported from the UK include: Ajeeb, born in 1925 exported to Hungary; Husseini born in 1924 exported to Palestine; Naseem born in 1922 exported to Russia; Ramayan born in 1928 exported to Poland; Raffles born 1926, Raseyn born 1923, and Raswan born 1921 all exported to the USA. (Steen 179)
Female offspring that were exported from the UK include the following: Crabbet Sura born 1928, Incoronata born 1925, Raida born 1922, Rifala born 1922, Rimini born 1923 and Rosssana born 1925 all exported to the USA; Jalila born 1922, Namira born 1928, Nasieda bron 1927, Reyna born 1925, and Shelifa born 1922 all exported to Spain; Nasirieh born 1923 who was exported to Australia. (Steen 179)"
Can we agree on something like this? If you disagree please copy and edit it with changes below my entry. 
Arabhorseguy (talk) 06:09, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted the article to the status quo ante before all this nonsense started.  The original "descendants" section has been restored.  But if something like the above is added to what is already there (but phrased better) with solid reliable sources properly formatted, that would be fine.  Montanabw(talk) 18:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

text: No, because we'd basically have to write it all over again. What we need to do is find sources to back up the content and add them. White Arabian Filly Neigh 21:27, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with WAF.  No, we do not delete it. We add sources. Montanabw(talk) 22:20, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed additions and changes to Descendants Section 

message: The fact that Skowronek was influential is undeniable. The nature of the influence is the point in question. I suggest we create text that neutrally describes the facts and arugments on both sides. The general ideas are detailed below. If folks want to comment go ahead. 
Point of view A
He is in 95% of horses registered as "Arabians" worldwide. (I am not sure where the reference for this is but it might be in the WAHO article "Is Purity the Issue")
More stuff could be added here about the influence of his descendants etc. But detailed information on his descendants really belong in the descendants section. 
Point of view B
That because he contains non Arabian blood 95% of the horses that are registered as "Arabian" do not meet the critera set out by the Bedouins. (The Asil Club website and AlDahdah could be the references here).
That's it. Both sides get their say and we move on. 
Arabhorseguy (talk) 06:31, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We could rename the "descendants" section as "legacy" or "influence" (or "descendants and influence").  I favor the concept, but we only need one section, not two.  Montanabw(talk) 18:48, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We already explain "both sides" in the article as it is. There may be room for another sentence or two to expand a bit (if it can be sourced to proper sources), but to declare 95% of the registered Arabian horses in the world are "impure" is clearly a fringe theory (see WP:FRINGE).  It is also a marketing ploy by a bloodline group trying to argue that their horses are better than everyone else's, and so commercially motivated.  The bottom line here is that the "criteria set out by the Bedouin" wasn't even consistent, as there were multiple Bedouin tribes, and some of their beliefs did not even correlate with modern science (their belief in telegony, for example).  Raswan discovered this just trying to work out the various strains.  On top of that, modern mtDNA studies have shown that the "strains" don't always even trace to the same matrilineal ancestor. The idea that only the 2% to 5% of horses who have an absolutely perfect provenance in their pedigrees to a specific Bedouin breeder who swore by Allah that the horse was Asil are "real" Arabians is basically silly, and it's been silly for the past 80 years.  So drop the stick.  Montanabw(talk) 22:56, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed new section named "Influence" 

message: I just got here, not having edited WP in several days.  In short, I am going to revert this article to the status quo ante and we can go on from there.  The "Skowronek was not a real purebred" thing is basically a WP:FRINGE theory and we can discuss it further, but it's not going to dominate the article.  As  stated, the longstanding position of mainstream Arabian organization is that Skowronek was a purebred Arabian, and though there is controversy, which can be discussed, self-published and obscure sources are not suitable here. Montanabw(talk) 17:42, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a further thought about what Montanabw has said. If you think about it, all breeds of horses came about via crossbreeding of some type. If you go back far enough in the pedigree of any notable purebred horse today--doesn't matter if it's an Arabian, Thoroughbred, Tennessee Walking Horse, Saddlebred, whatever, you will eventually find ancestors not of that breed. Using that kind of logic, you could argue Man O' War was not a real Thoroughbred because he, like all TBs, went back to an Arabian sire. Arabians are the oldest or one of the oldest pure breeds in the world, but that doesn't mean they did not come from somewhere else. Maybe they did cross some other horses into them at some point: did it ruin the breed? Not that I can see. It probably helped keep them from getting too inbred and developing more genetic problems than the few they have. White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:27, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

text: Do not agree. Edwards, Mulder, and Wentworth and fine references. They easily meet the WP standards for reliable sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:00, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Except for the section on his descendants, which can probably be mostly referenced with sources from the Naborr article, everything is sourced to reliable references. Like Ealdgyth said, Mulder and Edwards in particular are excellent sources on the Arabian horse. (I haven't seen the Wentworth book.) And by the way, we only delete things that are copyright violations or something like that, not content somebody doesn't like. White Arabian Filly Neigh 21:21, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: One WP article is not a source for another.  Whatever de.wiki says, if there is a source there worth considering, it can be mentioned here, but they have the same rules about self-published sources and fringe theories that we do, and if that article is being ignored save for a few fringe theorists, well, I don't speak German and I'm not the one to fix it.  The issue of the "purity" of Skowronek is a fringe theory.  There are some experts that argue that his pedigree is not perfect, which is true, but the same is true of most Polish-bred Arabians, which was a slam that the "straight Egyptian" or "Asil Arabian" crowd has been using to bash the bloodline for the last 40 years at least.  the issue has long been settled by all mainstream Arabian breeding associations worldwide. And, I have a copy of Wentworth; if anyone wants to add the  or  tags where appropriate, go ahead and we can work on that.  Montanabw(talk) 22:06, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on all of the above 

message: http://www.shahadastud.com/index2.php?option=definition&lang=en Is quite clear that Registan is excluded from the Pyramid Society. “ With reference to the exclusion of the horse Registan,“ and the third point of horses that are eligible says “ a horse, other than a horse having Registan or Sharkasi as a lineal ancestor” is eligible for the Pyramid Society.  AK only accepts three Polish lines, and Ibrahim is not one of them. I’m less clear about the European Asil Society...as I’ve not dealt with them. Nor am I as clear on the Blue Star folks, they may accept Skowronek. But Registan exclusion from being SE is due to Skowronek. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:09, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: this, by the way, resolves the problem of the above. Proving that Skowronek is exluded from AK just needs the fact that neither he nor his sire (the original desert bred-claimed horse) are listed as acceptable ancestral stock in the AK roster, which is available online. Another source is https://desertarabian.org/what/library-archives/egyptian-bloodlines-explained/ . I’m on a tablet so can’t add the sources right now. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The Asil club is a European group similar to Al Khamsa, I think.  The Pyramid Society is a straight Egyptian group that excludes some Al Khamsa horses (such as the Davenports, if memory serves).  But all three have different rules.  I think the "Blue Star" group, that argued that the other three weren't strict enough in their exclusions (I think they felt the Mu'niqi strain was "impure" — you know the one attributed to the Darley Arabian), is now defunct. Sigh.  Montanabw(talk) 21:27, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Registan 

message: Hi, Ealdgyth - I removed this edit for two reasons - (1) It is not sourced, and (2) the one source I cited in my edit summary made the get of Registan an exception, not an exclusion per the 3rd bullet. Do you have a source that specifically states otherwise? If not, the statement needs to be removed. Best...Atsme📞📧 14:23, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the talk page. I provided a source there along with a discussion. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  And yes, I"m in cranky mode today - but this should be ON THE TALK PAGE. Too many folks discuss article content on user talk pages, which makes it difficult to follow conversations about content. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I never thought of you as a crank . Thank you for providing the citation with a full explanation. I get cranky when the wrong terminology is used - such as the ambiguous use of exception; e.g. rule - long sleeve shirts must be worn in the show ring, (with the exception of really hot days).  Atsme📞📧 16:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed 

message: "17 pairs of ribs, five lumbar vertebrae and 16 tail vertebrae"
Why is this noteworthy? I presume the average encyclopedia reader doesn't go around counting ribs and vertebrae on horses. Please add an explanation to the article.
Also, if these numbers represent anything out of the ordinary, it would be interesting to know if any of Skowronek's offspring shared similar traits. (And of course what the usual range for these numbers is in regular horses.)
--BjKa (talk) 12:07, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skeleton