Talk:List of messiah claimants

message: I think that asserting that "Jesus did not claim to be the Messiah" is unnecessarily tendentious. Some people claim he did; some people claim he didn't, and we don't have to decide the question in order to place him on this list.  I also don't see much need for  "His followers formed Christianity" which is true but seems tangential. YMMD. -- Someone else 06:50 22 May 2003 (UTC)
:So did no one claim before Jesus? lysdexia 15:55, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I was looking for information about Messiah claimants at around the time of Jesus. I thought, perhaps wrongly, that there were certain Jewish groups who anticipated the imminent arrival of a Messiah. Perhaps John the baptist was one of them?. I though, again perhaps wrongly, that a number of such Messiah claimants were killed by the Romans and/or Jewish authorities in and around that time? Yet there is no mention of them in this Wiki. Michael Cole.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.148.244 (talk) 08:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

text: "Believers in Jesus" is so vague that it is meaningless. And you have extracted one small aspect of Islam's view of Jesus. Read Jesus in Islam for more details. Sundayclose (talk) 22:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

text: The section defines Jesus as "leader of a Jewish sect who was crucified", which is unfortunately not vague in a way that avoids the conflict with the Islamic idea of Jesus. See Jesus in Islam for confirmation that Jesus was not crucified according to Islam. - Chris Schmidt (talk) 13:18, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying Jesus was crucified for "alleged sedition" is not quite an accurate claim, as the primary source of details of his crucifixion is the Bible, which states that the Roman authorities were pressured by Jews to execute him, because Jewish people thought Jesus claimed to be God, a blasphemy punishable by death. The source for it being "alleged sedition" is Bart Ehrman, who represents one point of view among many. He has been against Christianity for some time and could be considered a biased source. If he is cited, I think there needs to be additional citations, such as the Bible (Luke chapter 23 in particular), to let readers examine different viewpoints out there.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.36.34.178 (talk) 02:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:RSPSCRIPTURE. tgeorgescu (talk)  10:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Jesus

message: I broke this list down into 3 manageable bites, Jewish, Christian, and Other messiahs. Ignus 03:56, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: Can people who are more know more than me add more details for these people:
Jewish section:
Simon (c. 4 BCE) - The link is to the name 'Simon' and I could not tell who this refered to.--Zabdiel 11:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  People needing more details 

message: This article is incomplete without mention of Cyrus the Great, whom the prophet Isaiah called the messiah. 
The original meaning of the word "Messiah" is merely one who is appointed by God to perform some task. - E.g. a king. It was after Jesus that the word became exclusively linked to the concept of a savior. Isaiah did not call Cyrus the savior. He referred to him as a king under God. - Chris Schmidt (talk) 21:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyrus the Great 

message: would Li Hongzhi, founder of Falun Gong, make this list?? Chensiyuan 12:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say yes. In most of his online lectures he posits himself as the source of an upcoming "rectification" of the universe. I'd probably use the word "saviour" over "messiah". Li does compare himself (favourably) to Jesus, however. --Fire Star 火星 19:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Li Hongzhi

message: High-five to the editors of this article! It's a great model for how the various self-claimed deity categories ought to be organized. I'm hoping someone less busy than me will undertake the task of organzing the overlap. --TheEditrix2 15:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overlapping categories 

message: An interesting article, but it's threatening to grow exponentially. I wonder if it should be limited to the Judeo-Christian tradition, partly in order to make it manageable, and partly to avoid confusing those who claim, or are claimed, to be the 'anointed king' based in the Biblical tradition with those who are merely somewhat similar but based in a different tradition? For example, the 18th century Burmese king Bodawpaya viewed himself as the world-ruler promised at the end of time in Buddhist tradition, and consequently embarked on a series of wars against his neighbours. In the very broadest sense he could certainly be said to have viewed himself in terms similar to those in which the Jewish Messiah was sometimes viewed, but when you look at the details the similarities fall away. I'd even leave the Islamic tradition of the Mahdi out - like the Buddhist tradition, it's a view which centres on a millenarian figure, but it's not connected with the Jewish Messiah described in Kings. (Is there an article about millenarianism? perhaps that's the place for these figures to be discussed). PiCo 05:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can you have a non-Jewish/Christian messiah? 

message: I don't know the technicalities behind this... but if Jesus is included shouldn't Mohammad too?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.50.233 (talk) 04:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but he didn't claim to be the mahdi (messias). He pointed out, that someone else would come. With jesus it is questioned, if he really did, but its surely not questioned, that noone else is believed to be the messias by so many people as him. There are even some muslims who accept him as the messias but claim to remain muslims. --92.227.151.84 (talk) 03:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Mohammad

message: Earlier this morning I edited the "Other/combination" section, adding Michael Jackson, along with three sentences of explanation.  As of 1 pm CST I see it is been deleted, and there is no trace of either change in the history.  I have looked at many of the wikipedia guide pages.  Can the history page attached to a topic be edited to remove items?   Because of the effect of the American/English media coverage of Michael Jackson in the past 15 years or so, I feel this entry may need some 'protection.'  Any advice or comments from more experienced users?   Thanks, Stephen.  24.78.147.130 (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that there needs to be reliable sources backing this claim.  No one doubts that there are a few people who would think that, but is it a major, notable movement?  If it is a major, notable, movement, then CNN should eventually publish a story along the lines of "Jackson: Was he the Messiah?"  Then we can link to the story as a reference.  (Note that this has to be a major, notable source too, not just a personal webpage.) SnowFire (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  There was a BBC television documentary (part of the Everyman series sometime around the mid 1990's) about a group of people who believe that a certain Elvis Aaron Presley was the second coming ! Seemingly much of this was based on the first reported sightings of Elvis following his death being three days subsequent ! Takes all sorts I guess. 213.40.114.98 (talk) 17:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Jackson 

message: :: There was a BBC television documentary (part of the Everyman series sometime around the mid 1990's) about a group of people who believe that a certain Elvis Aaron Presley was the second coming ! Seemingly much of this was based on the first reported sightings of Elvis following his death being three days subsequent ! Takes all sorts I guess. 213.40.114.98 (talk) 17:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Other musical celebrities

message: Why is not Jesus listed in the Christian list? He claimed to be Jesus, for sure. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 13:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Why ...?

message: It's not clear to me what determines inclusion on this list.  To take three examples I noticed:
* David Icke (b. 1952), of Great Britain, has described himself as "the son of God", and a "channel for the Christ spirit".
It's true that both Jesus and Icke claimed to be the son of God, but it does not follow (does it?) that Icke claims to be a messiah.  And being a channel for someone that is called a messiah does not mean that you consider yourself a messiah.
* David Icke (b. 1952) I agree with you. Here is the truth about what David Icke really said, See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WhbP3JHqJw.  His name should be removed from this list and he should be the one to remove it!174.1.37.231 (talk) 17:03, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The announcement coincided with a turbulent time in Icke’s private life. He has since retracted the contention, referring now to being the son of a godhead. 
If this is accurate (and if we do indeed think he claimed to be a messiah), then the retraction should surely be mentioned, no?  (I am not claiming that ukskeptics is a WP:RS, mind you — we would need a reliable source in order to mention the retraction.)
Thoughts? Phiwum (talk) 18:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criteria? 

message: Hasan Mezarcı. Turksih politician. He was elected to the Turkish grand assembly.
Turkish messiah claims his lordship: http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-20193.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.145.2.11 (talk) 03:46, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hasan Mezarcı 

message: *** Menachem Mendel Schneerson should not be included in this list. The author himself states: '...though he himself never said this and actually scoffed at such claims which were made during his lifetime.' He should be removed.. need consensus.Bzmeltzer (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved this from the article.  As I've said before, this list includes people who did not claim to be the Messiah, but who were claimed to be by their followers.  Why do you not object to the inclusion of Vespasian, André Matsoua, or Haile Selassie I, when we have no direct record of them making any such claims themselves?  Again, this list includes people who did not claim to be the Messiah (or even denied being the Messiah), but who are or were claimed to be by a notable portion of their followers.  Ian.thomson (talk) 20:01, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

text: First of all, who is Rebbe? "There seems to be evidence that he was ok with people thinking it about him"; Please give us reliable sources. Sundayclose (talk) 14:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objections over the inclusion of Menachem Mendel Schneerson, moved from articlespace 

message: I edited about Ahn Sahng-hong since the ref cite web did not match with the information, and the website was a blog instead of an official website. There were no reliable sources mentioning about the New Covenant Passover Church of God. Thanks!--Nancyinthehouse (talk) 02:48, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahn Sahng-hong 

message: It is my reading that in a biblical sense anyone eligible to claim to be Emmanuel has to be of David's line and to have taken part in a trial where not a bone was broken and where their enemies were below their feet. This happened with Jesus when he was crucified, and Muhammad on his visit to Tair, but because the Jews would not accept them as King neither were eligible to be Emmanuel, in a biblical sense. I would like other scholars with more knowledge than me to state on this article which of the claimant's were of Davidic descent and therefore eligible to be a Messiah by virtue of being a Son. Concurring with those above, I think the article needs to be renamed to include those people, like Muhammad, who did not claim to be Messiah but whom scholars, including myself, and religious groups, like Muslims, believe met the biblical criteria to be Messiah, even if in my case do not think he was biblically a King. Many Muslims say Muhammad made a mistake not calling himself Messiah, because he mistakenly thought Messiah and Desire of Nations (i.e. Emmanuel) were the same thing. --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 14:43, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claimant's of Davidic Descent 

message: has repeatedly added people to the list who do not have a Wikipedia article or otherwise have not been documented to be notable. There are thousands of messiah claimants through the years, most of whom the vast majority of the world has never heard of, and we can't have every one of them in this list. Yahzitere Yahmarabhi, please write the Wikipedia articles for the claimants you wish to add. Sundayclose (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  User Yahzitere Yahmarabhi 

message: Closed: page merged here. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it provides a useful cross-religious comparison of false messiahs, but I won't be heart broken if it is decided to merge. I just wanted to make sure it was discussed first. Editor2020, Talk 19:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion to merged the article [[False messiah]] in to this article

message: Please explain your revert. See the corresponding articles if in doubt. Or do you need RS?Zezen (talk) 20:56, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I did explain in my edit summary, but if you need more detail here it is. One point to understand: I am not challenging whether these individuals have claimed to be the Messiah. The issue is notability. There are literally thousands of people throughout history who have claimed to be the Messiah. Wikipedia can't include all of them and must draw the line on notability. Read WP:WTAF. Many non-notable claimants have been added and removed based on notability. The established procedure on this article is to either write well sourced articles on these two people, or get consensus on the talk page to include them. Sundayclose (talk) 22:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition to WP:WTAF for lists, WP:LISTPEOPLE is valid. Those without articles can have entries, but it has to meet a very high notability standard and have proper sourcing. An article lowers the restrictive high bar for inclusion on lists.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 23:06, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: With regards to sourcing, the founder of the Khlysts has a citation (The Rasputin File by Edvard Radzinsky) but I don't know exactly what is says about him claiming to be the Messiah. There's a statement about the one of the founders of the Skoptsy in that article (), but it's not accompanied by a citation. clpo13(talk) 23:46, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

text: No. I'm not sure you understand. We are not talking about sourcing the claims by these people that they are the messiah. We are talking about Wikipedia's standards for notability. Google hits is not the standard by which Wikipedia determines notability. As noted above, please read WP:WTAF and WP:LISTPEOPLE. Either write well-sourced articles for these two people, or get a consensus here to include them. Sundayclose (talk) 02:44, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

text: Those people do not have their own articles. The names link to the cult/group to which they are associated.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 04:31, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: [[List of messiah claimants]]

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thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The current text says: "Jesus of Nazareth (c. 5 BCE – 30 CE), leader of a Jewish sect who was crucified by the Romans at the instigation of Jewish leaders". I am not aware of any historical basis for that last part and no reference is given. The Romans were a ruthless occupying power who crucified whoever they wanted to, often in large numbers. It is far less likely that they would crucify people just to appease a grudge alleged to be held by members of the local puppet regime than that they simply wanted him dead themselves. The only sources we have for the claim are gospels complied and edited by the Romans themselves, who are hardly neutral in this. I propose to simply snip out "at the instigation of Jewish leaders". I assume this is uncontroversial, or at least as uncontroversial as any mention of Jesus can be? Right?
Also, I think it incorrect to characterise Muslims as accepting him as the messiah. My understanding is that they accept him as a prophet, which is not the same thing at all. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:55, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the Islam issue, it depends on the meaning attributed to the term "messiah". Islam clearly doesn't believe Jesus to be divine, so it's not the same as a Christian interpretation of "messiah". Read Jesus in Islam. Sundayclose (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have replaced the dubious claim with a more factual one. Bart Ehrman noted that in Ancient Christian writings the rhetoric became increasingly anti-Jewish with the passing of time. So, yes, putting the blame on the Jews and reducing the blame on Romans was a way of dealing with becoming a gentile-oriented religion across the Roman Empire. Most Jews considered that "Jesus=Messiah" claim was ridiculous, if not blasphemous, so the few Jews who converted to Christianity were feeling unwelcome in the mainstream Judaism of their time. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:47, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus again (The bit I just tagged as dubious) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Messiah does not mean being God, it means the king of Israel. Muslims believe that Jesus is the king of Israel, who brought his people in a right relationship with God (at least those willing to listen to him). Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus as Messiah 

message: It is highly unlikely that the Romans would have prosecuted blasphemy against Yahweh. So, most likely, Jesus was executed for sedition, i.e. not against Judaism, but against the Roman Empire. tgeorgescu (talk)  18:04, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sedition 

message: It might amaze you, but there is no other serious historical theory for the origins of Christianity. (Jesus Seminar was fringe by design.) tgeorgescu (talk)  02:40, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "marginal Jewish apocalyptic cult" 

message: I have commented out several WP:RS about him, thinking that one source should be enough. Disagree? Then uncomment them all, my personal take is that it is WP:OVERCITE. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abd-ru-shin 

message: I think this article would be improved by splitting the "Other" group from the "Other/Combination" group.  The "Combination" claims are generally more substantial (and perhaps deserve to be placed at the top of the article?) whereas the "Other" claims typically seem to have less historical significance or a very limited following.  Does anyone have any objections to this change?  All of the material will remain unchanged--only the order of presentation would be adjusted.
______________________________________________________________  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jetstream423 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separating "Other" from "Combination" claims 

message: The personalities named in the Muslim Claimant section claimed to be 'mehdis' or guides. Mehdi is not Jesus nor Messiah. None of them except Murza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Messiah. Peddle your propaganda within your own ignormasuses and get your facts straight. They seek to balance messiah claims by adding names to the Muslim section. False messiahs is a Christian and Jewish problem primarily. Peddle your propagandoys farce within your own circle. 
2601:601:8680:7990:E0A6:D6E3:AB35:2380 (talk) 07:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: A mere technicality: Mahdi is (supposed to be) greater than Jesus/Messiah. tgeorgescu (talk)  08:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslim Claimant Section is False