Talk:The Master Musicians of Joujouka/Archive 1

message: Shouldn't both spellings be shown in wikipedia's search engine? It's very strange to see the title spelled one way (Joujouka) and the text spelled "Jajouka." Consistency would be nice. Bebop 07:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: for the record, when I wrote the above casual question many moons ago, I did not mean there should be only one article. I meant that the article I was looking at that day was titled with one spelling and using a different spelling in the same article's article text, and I was thoroughly confused about the subject because no one had explained there were two different bands being discussed in the same article. I'm shocked that no administrator who understood there were two bands was responsible enough to routinely disambiguate this over a period of more than a year that's passed. Evidently no one involved in editing it knew how to do that. All were new users unused to Wikipedia, I guess, including one band's manager. Clearly, two articles with two spellings are called for without question just like with any other similar article situation. Master Musicians of Jajouka should be one article and Master Musicians of Joujouka, the latter of which made two albums, should be the other. Sorry that I didn't check on this sooner. I'm swamped with other work.  Bebop 14:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

message: This is the 1st time I see Joujouka. It appears that this could be a japaneese psychedelic band Joujouka, not the Master Musicians of Jajouka. However, as explained further down, Joujouka (French style), or Jujuka (English style), are arguably correct transcriptions of actual pronounciations.
* I have moved the information about the Japanese band to its own article, Joujouka (Japanese band). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various pronounciations - yes for consistency... 

message: To [[User:Opiumjones 23].
This article should should settle down an bit. Reverting wars are not the solution. Please refer to the guidelines:
* Wikipedia:Citing sources
:This rift seems to have lasted for some time: In an article published in The Wire in 1996, guitarist Lee Ranaldo wrote, "It seems there are currently two groups of musicians claiming to be the 'real' Master Musicians OF Jajouka/Joujouka (they're even arguing over the spelling). One group, the 'Jajouka' faction, is led by Bachir Attar, whose father was the leader of the group in the 60s when Brian Jones and Ornette Coleman made their visits (it is this group I have written about here, and for reasons of pragmatism, I have used the 'Jajouka' spelling throughout). The 'Joujouka' faction is in the care of Mohammed Hamri, who has been involved with the village since the 50s and 60s, and who had a hand in bringing Brion Gysin and Paul Bowles there."
:===Against===
:The group's unique tradition is on the verge of extinction: modern life is changing Jajouka, and it is increasingly difficult to find young men to carry on the tradition.
*Wikipedia:NPOV
:In Tangier, Gysin and Hamri founded the 1001 Nights restaurant, in which the musicians played for four years during the early 1950s to a largely Western audience in what was then an international zone, the "Interzone" of William S. Burroughs' fiction.
:====Against====
:In Tangier, Brion Gysin founded the 1001 Nights restaurant, located adjacent to the Menhebi palace on the Marshan, in which Jajouka musicians played for four years during the early 1950s to a largely Western audience when the city of Tangier was an International Zone.
:The group's unique tradition is on the verge of extinction: modern life is changing Jajouka, and it is increasingly difficult to find young men to carry on the tradition.
*Wikipedia:Verifiability
Joujouka w/o Bachir against Jajouka with Bachir Attar. Cheers -- Szvest 22:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources, references and POV problems

message: Hi guys. I've been reading an article about MMJ at Telquel magazine and verified the following:
* Name: The real name is "The master musicians of Jajouka" instead of "Master musicians of Joujouka".
* The music of Jajouka is exclusively related to the Attar family since medieval times when the masters used to play in royal (sultans') courts. 
I'll move the page to the new title but keep the redirects. -- Szvest 18:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't move it back yet, but I disagree.  The Wikistandard is to use ordinary English rules of capitalization and to not use the article (e.g. "the") in titles, except under extremely exceptional circumstances.  I don't see anything in the link you provided that indicates the name is officially non-standard, and the official homepage uses "Master Musicians of Joujouka".  (note that the official name is not necessarily the appropriate title of the wiki article, but since the name on the official website is wikistandard, I see no reason not to use it) Tuf-Kat 19:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page move

message: Who or what is Miles in the image description? TimBentley (talk) 04:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is Barry Miles. I forgot to disambig. Thanks for the note. -- Szvest 11:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think she means re: "holding the notes" that people can hear the flute player pause for a breath on some songs on the Sub Rosa recordings instead of holding the note through the song, but that is opinion, which has to be referenced with citations to be used in an article. As for Nutting not being able to get into the article to edit it, if one manager can't, then neither manager (Nutting or Rynne) should re: wikipedia guidelines that the admins have slept through.  Emerman 00:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who or what is Miles? 

message: The official spelling on the albums by the official group is "Master Musicians of Jajouka". See the discography at www.jajouka.com. Please spell it right. The "joujouka" spelling is only used today by a band with a total of two albums out managed by an Irishman, not the real group.
In rereading the History file, I found that some of what I previously started to say while outraged reading the article moments ago was already said in the past, such as info about Hamri's firing in the early 1970s.
I am disturbed by what I see on this talk page and hope that someone will properly research the article and prevent confusion between Bachir Attar's group of Master Musicians of Jajouka and that of a group on Sub Rosa that made a total of two albums using a similar name. I think the article needs a lot of revision and should be marked as having its information contested.
Emerman 03:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs help badly  

message: The above needs a little reading but seem to defame the dead and slander and libel the living. Svest if you think it should be commented on here email me.
User:Opiumjones 23 03:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still in the middle of editing and writing what I wrote and you've already commented before I finished? Gosh, I wonder who this might be, but someone interested in this to the point of watching the talk page every second for changes and not signing with his log in (update: he added his signature later). I will be editing it down shortly because it's too long. As for slander and libel, this discussion on Hamri's firing was already mentioned in a previous message I read in the article history without anyone crying out "libel". I would like to see some good print articles disambiguate the two bands' differences and particularly the clear fact that the main band spells it Jajouka regardless of what a cousin tried to say in a  separate band. There are many cousins in that village because half the village is related but not every cousin is a direct descendant of the leader from the band in Pipes of Pan at Jajouka nor has been accepted by Burroughs, Bowles, Palmer etc. as the accepted leader.
Emerman 03:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, that's right, Opiumjones 23, it's an encyclopedia, meaning you are supposed to be citing from print sources for each statement made in the article, which is why I mentioned print articles. And I'm trying to correct my TALK PAGE comments and you keep writing the second I make a comment here so that I can't have time to edit my rough draft because you're so beamed in on this page that you watch every moment it changes. Please allow me to finish posting. And please consult the Wikipedia Guidelines on Conflict of Interest that you routinely seem to violate in some of your submissions in the actual article, though perhaps some of this is due to your unfamiliarity with all the Wikipedia guidelines, which can be hard for people to keep up with. This article is confusing people all over the world and needs to be disambiguated so that people stop mixing up the two groups. The better known band is clearly the one on the major label, the Bachir Attar-led "Master Musicians of Jajouka", not the minor label group on Sub Rosa ("Master Musicians of Joujouka") - someone needs to disambiguate because people who get the two mixed up due to Wikipedia's inept handling of this are now including librarians, journalists, and record store staff researching albums and this is a problem massively damaging to the career of the better known group whose reputation is being piggybacked on by the minor label act.
Emerman 03:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Libels ?

message: User:FayssalF/JK Opiumjones 23 (talk) 01:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion Moved to Mediation at [[User:FayssalF/JK]]