Talk:Kosen judo

message: Having the Gracies mentioned in several places in the article including its very beginning, plus letting the BJJ having a separate section in the end, IMO makes it look slightly BJJ-biased. Kosen judo should not necessarily be seen and described through the eyes of those interested in BJJ, it is not neutral. // Habj 08:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BJJ has more world recognition than Kosen Judo. Perhaps the only people who know Kosen Judo are Judoka who were interested in Judo history, japanese Judoka, and, perhaps, a few BJJers who did not claim that their origin lies in a mythical Indian martial art. The book from Kashiwazaki (Judo Masterclass Techiniques: Osaekomi) also has a strong point towards the link between Kosen Judo and BJJ. Maeda was a Kosen Judoka. All this is not biased towards BJJ, or detrimental to Kosen Judo, to the contrary, it links a somewhat unkwnown sect of Judo to the very popular Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. Why it´s wrond? If you happen to have more info on Kosen history, etc, just add it to the article, but just don´t criticize the link of Kosen with BJJ just because it seems that you do not like any emphasis on BJJ. Regards. Loudenvier 15:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Man, I have myself (re)read the article after you pointed it was biased. I can´t think that way even trying hard. This article is very informative and make an interesting link with BJJ. The general press tells half truths about BJJ origins and etc, trying to increase the importance of the Gracies (I´m not saying they aren´t important, I´m just saying that credits to Maeda and Kosen judo must also be made clear). This article is meant to dismistify it, showing that the roots from BJJ are in KOSEN JUDO. It does not dismiss Kosen Judo, it just shows the truth. Why do you complain to that? Loudenvier 15:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  An article about kosen judo should not be meant to dismistify halftruths about BJJ, it should focus on Kosen judo itself. Generally I think the article has good content, and I think the slight rearrangemant that I just made make the main parts of it more focussed on actual Kosen judo and keeping the BJJ and Gracie part in half rather than whole the article. I hope I did not remove anything that was not mentioned in other parts of the article - if so, that was a mistake.  // Habj 02:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It wasn´t meant to dismistify BJJ, only to show the strong link between Kosen Judo and BJJ, which is undeniable. You´re edits on the introduction were good but I thought they were a litle biased towards only removing the link between Kosen and BJJ and not on adding new content to the article itself. Overall your edits made the article more organized, so a few copy-editing will even make it better. That´s what wikipedia is: colaborative "anarchical" work :-) regards. Loudenvier 01:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Where exactly does it say that Kosen wasn't made till 1914? It seems to imply that it came into being sometime between 18XX and 1914 if I read it right. FlowWTG 18:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  To answer FlowWTG: "In 1914 Kano organized all the Japan High School Championships at Kyoto Imperial University. This sportive style of competition was formally called Kosen (high school)." Spoxjox 18:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: People, Kosen Judo was not an influence on BJJ creation as it seems at first because Maeda wasn't a Kosen judoka. Kosen judo started later. But Kosen Judo techniques (Sangaku-Jime for example - triangle choke) came to Brazil later in the 1920s, 30s and 40s and were incorporated in BJJ. It's fair to change the article to remove its influence in BJJ. In fact BJJ and Kosen Judo are more similar to each other rather than one being an influence in the founding of the other. Regards Loudenvier 19:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus of the article 

message: The article claims in the first paragraph: "Kosen judo was most influential to Brazilian jiujitsu." However, the article itself shows this to be untrue. It claims that Kano began Kosen judo in 1914, yet Maeda left for Brazil in 1915. No one can believe that Kosen judo was so well-established as a separate form within a year that it was the precursor to BJJ! Unless someone can provide a citation for this idea and then rewrite it so that it is expressed correctly, this erroneous sentence ought to be removed. Spoxjox 02:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where exactly does it say that Kosen wasn't made till 1914? It seems to imply that it came into being sometime between 18XX and 1914 if I read it right. FlowWTG 18:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  To answer FlowWTG: "In 1914 Kano organized all the Japan High School Championships at Kyoto Imperial University. This sportive style of competition was formally called Kosen (high school)." Spoxjox 18:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: People, Kosen Judo was not an influence on BJJ creation as it seems at first because Maeda wasn't a Kosen judoka. Kosen judo started later. But Kosen Judo techniques (Sangaku-Jime for example - triangle choke) came to Brazil later in the 1920s, 30s and 40s and were incorporated in BJJ. It's fair to change the article to remove its influence in BJJ. In fact BJJ and Kosen Judo are more similar to each other rather than one being an influence in the founding of the other. Regards Loudenvier 19:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosen Judo not a precursor to BJJ 

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thread_title:  External links modified