Talk:Candide

message: I think an incident outside Surinam in the book should be added. I've already tried twice but it was rejected as "unconstruc-tive", whatever that means. Basically, Candide and Cacamba are walking along when they find a slave by the side of the road who's lost a hand and leg, apparently in labor. He's been left there to die, it seems, and complains the Church teaches that everyone descends from Adam, and "you must admit no one could treat their relative more horribly." They held him to Surinam before splitting up. This is a very important part of the book, as it shows a view on slavery and racism practically unheard of at the time. Does someone want to add this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by M carteron (talk • contribs) 07:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, the synopsis of this article is probably not going to get any longer. See the discussions between Awadewit and me in the above peer review. -- rmrfstar (talk) 00:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Slave Outside Surinam

message: While there is no doubt the incident was inspired by the execution of Admiral Byng, does Voltaire actually use the name?  And I don't believe Byng was actually shot in the skull-- Voltaire takes some license here.  Kablammo (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All fixed. Thanks for the criticisms. -- Rmrfstar (talk) 07:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[John Byng]]

message: I am so astounded.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.152.10 (talk) 03:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amazing article 

message: One question, one suggestion.
Although it's been a long time since I studied Voltaire, I'm wondering whether in French literary history the work of Rabelais shouldn't be considered a precursor. As I said, long time since I studied it. But both Candide and Gargantua and Pantagruel are long episodic prose narratives written in a satiric vein within the same language tradition.
Also, it seems a major omission in the elucidation of the Garden not to at least mention Epicureanism. The meaning of the Garden in Epicurean philosophy is one of the main reasons the sentence is so wonderfully irreducible and produces so many points to ponder when you try to unpack it. The Enlightenment saw a major revival of the Epicurean philosophical tradition (Thomas Jefferson famously took an interest). Just a few examples from a superficial Google Books search: "Voltaire … thought of himself as an Epicurean" (Peter Gay, The Enlightenment); "Voltaire was probably drawn to the word jardin because it would remind readers of both the Garden of Eden and the garden of the ancient philosopher Epicurus" (David Wootton, Candide and Related Texts). It's pretty much a commonplace to view the ending of Candide in light of Epicureanism, as here; Martha Nussbaum also takes it as a given here; John Gray says that Voltaire ultimately failed to be an Epicurean, with the implication that his attempt is necessary to constructing what he ultimately meant to say with the jardin; Simone de Beauvoir alludes to the Epicureanism of Candide's garden in her essay Pyrrhus and Cineas. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like you know your stuff. What's stopping you? --Milkbreath (talk) 18:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Cause doin' a Google Books search ain't the same as doin' the deed. I can do Epicureanism in antiquity, but it would take me a week to feel comfortable trying to sum up the Enlightenment context and doing a refresher on Voltaire. Was hoping the Voltaire-savvy folks who did this article could find a way to add it gracefully. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  a question, and a fairly major omission 

message: Yeah, sorry. I mentioned this article in a discussion of plot summary length, and he now thinks that, even though the plot summary has extensive discussion of everything, he can carry out his campaign against articles on fiction discussing that fiction here. There's no policy or guideline whatsoever behind his tag, and it may and should be removed on sight. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 01:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That statement is bordering between just merely severely deluded and an outright lie. You know full well that WP:NOTPLOT is a policy, as you tried unsuccessfully for months to get it deleted. If you keep editing like that policy is not there and claiming there is none you're just disrupting Wikipedia to make a WP:POINT. Edits like this and elsewhere are at the level where you should be blocked, because you can't keep pulling stunts like this. DreamGuy (talk) 16:11, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And you know full well that WP:NOTPLOT only applies to articles where the plot is the only element there, and has nothing whatsoever to do with articles like this with substantial critical commentary.  Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 16:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry Dreamguy, I agree with SH - this article has oodles of commentary and discussion and the plot takes up less than 50% of the article. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:14, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I can understand a reluctance to encourage junk articles that consist of only a plot summary with a few opinions (one article for every book published?), however for cases such as this I believe that the detailed plot summary is justified and extremely valuable. WP:NOTPLOT does not preclude the summary in this article, and no  tag should be added. Johnuniq (talk) 03:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

text: The decision at FAC seems to have been that it'd be misleading as to the sheer complexity of the work otherwise. Voltaire rather deliberately made the plot as complex as possible. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 17:38, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Voltaire made the plot as complex as possible, with multiple vignettes," covers that better than including 3 throw-away plot sentences about each vignette. I bet at least one of the scholarly works on the book mentions that. Secondly, having read the FAC, it seems to me that there was not nearly enough discussion about the plot summary to reach a strong consensus, certainly not one that is not subject to change. If you were to look at the plot summary de-novo, can you see some sections of it that could be cleaned? Hipocrite (talk) 17:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest, I read the book once quite some time ago, and didn't care for it. Given the amount of scholarly commentary kept within the plot summary, and given this is considered one of the most important works of French literature, I'd be uncomfortable changing what the subject's experts deemed important. In any case, edit-warring to tag a recent FA based on an idiosyncratic interpretation of policy impossible to correlate with the actual words of the policy mentioned is not appropriate. If the subject experts want to reconsider, that's quite another thing, and I make no judgement there. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 17:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't see a lot of scholarly commentary in the plot summary. Am I missing something? I demonstrated what kind of plot summary I would prefer in the ch1-10 section. Please review, and revert with my blessing per my edit summary if you disagree. Hipocrite (talk) 17:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  WP:PLOT clearly states "concise".  This isn't concise. And the amount of commentary in comparison to the plot summary is frankly, minimal. Black Kite 17:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Be that as it may, the scenes removed in Hippocrite's edit are arguably more important than the ones kept in, if you've read the book. I think we should leave any trimming to subject experts, and they seem against trimming.  Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 18:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Synopsis section does not take up anywhere near majority of the article (in fact, it takes up only 26%, not including the TOC or references), so I think it falls well within the parameters of WP:NOTPLOT: "Wikipedia articles should not be: 1. Plot-only description of fictional works."  With regard to being concise, I think the Synopsis also meets this condition when weighed against the rest of the article's content. Emw (talk) 18:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot Summary too detailed? 

message: Should there be a list of a few references to Candide in popular culture, as for example in the TV programme "Sharpe's sword"?
:I'm reluctant to add it myself, since it seems a little less than a scholarly way to treat such a lofty work.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.111.18 (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am of the opinion that adding such references would add nothing to the article: there have been too many references to the work in the past 250 years. -- Rmrfstar (talk) 03:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I also see no reason for a "popular culture" section. If consensus ever did favor such a section, I would want it strictly limited to instances where a secondary source has written on the significance of the reference to Candide in the work of popular culture. Johnuniq (talk) 04:20, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

text: I don't think the similarities are worth mentioning. In fact, the only similarity seems to be the 'simple' protagonist. -- Rmrfstar (talk) 15:13, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  References in popular culture 

message: Hi,
I have re-activated the link to the Tailored Texts edition of 'Candide' in the original French. The edition contains over 2000+ human-made annotations made specifically for English speakers reading the original (many of whom will be using this Wikipedia page).
It is a unique resource in that it allows interactive annotations (i.e. any registered users can annotate the text and discuss them, not just the webmaster) and that the interface has been specifically designed for people reading foreign-language literature.
I have talked to EdBever about this.
86.160.39.159 (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: "A number of historical events inspired Voltaire to write Candide, most notably the publication of Leibniz's "Monadology", a long logical treatise that concludes "Therefore this is the best of all possible worlds", the Seven Years' War, and the 1755 Lisbon earthquake. Both of the latter catastrophes are frequently referred to in Candide and are cited by scholars as reasons for its composition.[10] The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, tsunami, and resulting fires of All Saints' Day, had a strong influence on theologians of the day and on Voltaire, who was himself disillusioned by them. The earthquake had an especially large effect on the contemporary doctrine of optimism, a philosophical system which implies that such events should not occur. Optimism is founded on the theodicy of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz that says all is for the best because God is a benevolent deity."
The Monadology is actually very brief, only 90 paragraphs. Many modern editions are long because about 90% of the text is commentary added by others. Also, it is a stretch to say that Leibniz thought God was a "benevolent deity." His God is perfect, so His creations are perfect. Thus, the idea that this is the best of all worlds follows logically, but it has nothing to do with God's kindness or warm feelings for humanity.
The old Noslin (talk) 15:39, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Monadology" not long 

message: At least I was reminded of Candide when I saw it.  Am I alone in perceiving some parallels? knoodelhed (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''[[The Lego Movie]]'' as a derivative work? 

message: In the opening paragraph it is stated that Candide lives in an "Edenic paradise". I thought the irony was that, given Candide's shelteredness, what Voltaire considered a dismal part of Germany was considered the "best castle in the best province in the best of all possible worlds". BigGoyForYou (talk) 07:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Edenic paradise" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Is it a novel or a novella?  Both terms are being used inconsistently throughout the article. -- Pemilligan (talk) 01:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Novel or novella? 

message: This is taken from chapter 23 of the French wikisource: "mais dans ce pays-ci il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres." PatGallacher (talk) 22:28, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous quote

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion