Talk:Jewish Quarter (Jerusalem)

message: Shouldn't the "In the diaspora" section be replaced by a link to the much more thorough Ghetto article?--Doron 14:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the diaspora 

message: It seems at first glance like the see also section is empty. Only after looking at the edit page could I see that it was not. Could someone with more wiki experience fix it? Leppi 16:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: I think this article should be 'demoted' to high importance. It's very important, but certainly not a core topic of Israel. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Top importance? 

message: The lead gives the area of the Quarter as 45,000 sq. meters.  At 1,000 sq. meters per dunam, this would be 45 dunams.  A few paragraphs later the text gives 129 dunams as the area of the Quarter or a portion therof—nearly triple the figure in the lead.  This is an inconsistency that should be looked into and corrected.  In addition, the conversion given of 129 dunams as "about 22 acres" is incorrect.  At the ratio of approx. 4.05 dunams per acre, 129 dunams is about 32 acres; going the other way, 22 acres is about 89 dunams.  Which of the figures—if any—are correct?  Looking for help from someone with a reliable source. Hertz1888 (talk) 22:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Second problem has been corrected. Hertz1888 (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent area figures 

message: I have added a 'citation needed' to this statement since I have two photos of the Jewish Quarter published in 1963. One of which shows the Western Wall with the pavement well swept and all the Hebrew writting, visible in pre 1948 photos, removed from the wall.Padres Hana (talk) 13:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Wall a rubbish dump. 

message: The current text reads: "To enlarge and 'purify' the Jewish Quarter, thousands of Arabs were expelled." Not only is this POV speculation as to motives and a rather inflammatory statement, but its cited source is an anti-establishment tourism guide. Seriously? J21 (talk) 02:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: moved. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 03:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Jewish Quarter → Jewish Quarter (Jerusalem) — So that this current title can be a disambiguation page. Although not particuarly developed, Jewish Quarter (diaspora) is of similar notability to this article, and the expression "Jewish Quarter" can refer to a large number of city quarters around the world. 
Analysis of the first 20 hits (excluding 2 hits from Wikipedia for this article and the diaspora article) if you google "Jewish Quarter":
* Jewish Quarter, Jerusalem (this article) - 6 hits
* Jewish Quarter, Prague (Josefov) - 6 hits
* Jewish Quarter, Kraków (Kazimierz) - 2 hits
* Jewish Quarter, Třebíč - 1 hit
* Jewish Quarter, Rome (Roman Ghetto) - 1 hit
* Jewish Quarter, Córdoba - 1 hit
* Jewish Quarter, Paris (Pletzl, in the Le Marais district) - 1 hit
This hopefully shows that there is no one unambiguous primary meaning for the phrase "Jewish Quarter". YeshuaDavid • Talk • 17:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: For a subject that claims to have had a rich history not much seems to have happened between the Romans and 1948. Room for improvement perhaps? Padres Hana (talk) 16:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The History section has "mostly owned by WAQFS" yet in Post War developments its "Jewish houses". I would like to drop the "Jewish". Padres Hana (talk) 23:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rich History 

message: I have restored this, added by an IP editor, deleted by Gilabrand as vandalism, restored by Nasseriya with an unfortunate edit summary (I know you are new but its best to comment on content not people's intellectual capabilities), deleted again by Hertz1888 and then restored by me. I don't see any problem with these changes. Those who have a problem should express it here so that we can come to an agreement on how to proceed with its incorporation ( or not ). Tiamuttalk 22:06, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this page about the Moroccan quarter, or the Jewish Qtr? Chesdovi (talk) 00:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Shortly following the destruction of the Moroccan Quarter, its land were included in an expanded Jewish quarter, so its clearly relevant to this page (see p. 42 of Michael Dumper's The politics of sacred space: the old city of Jerusalem in the Middle East. Tiamuttalk 08:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

text: You should first reach consensus before making contested changes and not force it through edit war.Also removing Jordan Occupation is a clear POV push.--Shrike (talk) 05:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, people deleting the material should explain why here, so that we don't have. sterile revert war. Thanks for explaining one problm you have. The events discussed happened during the 1948 war and should be described as such, no? Tiamuttalk 08:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No the WP:BURDEN is on those who insert the material that didn't gain consensus also there WP:BRD if the material it reverted is should be disucssed in talk.There are also events that were happening during 1960 so Jordan occupation is correct title.--Shrike (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: BRD is a guideline referring to bold, revert, discuss. After someone reverts, they should explain why. Tiamuttalk 08:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Those who want to insert the change should explain.--Shrike (talk) 08:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

text: One of the sources is a tourist guide not reliable source about the historical events.The second source written by Michael Prior (theologian) not reliable source either on historical events.--Shrike (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If the problem is the sources, the one I linked to above has a whole chapter devoted to this issue (chapter 4). There are many others as well. I'll draft a new summary with better RS. okay? Tiamuttalk 08:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead.Present you changes in talk.--Shrike (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I will. I will be using Dumper and this source, which indicates that ten months following its demolition, the Moroccan quarter was incorporated into the newly expanded Jewish Quarter. Tiamuttalk 08:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please present the text in talk first--Shrike (talk) 08:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert war 

message: Thisscholarly source,, already cited a few times in the article, also mentions the fact that around 6000 Palestinian have been evicted and frankly, exiled from their homes. The source is quite thorough, so I don't see why there was an attempt to remove it, with only the reason "contradictory information cited to the same source" without explaining the reasoning behind doing this, nor what contradictory information was in question, nor why it's not okay to cite from the same source.
I think the expulsion is a necessary inclusion for this article, as the uprooting of 6000 inhabitants to make way for new ones seems like a rather significant part of the documented history of this neighborhood. There is no reason why it can't be incorporated more thoroughly.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solntsa90 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The expulsion of 6000 Palestinians must be included

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message: The population of Haret el Yahud, according to the census, consisted of:
1,119 Muslims (665 males, 526 females), 3,844 Jews (1,830 males, 2,014 females) and 35 Christians (21 males, 14 females). Total 5,070 people (2,516 males and 2,554 females).--ארינמל (talk) 12:02, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: 1931 census

message: As is now in the article, Israeli's letter to the UN is the source of the oft-repeated claim "all but one of the thirty-five Jewish houses of worship in the Old City were destroyed".  I've often wondered how so many synagogues could exist in such a small area, so I searched quite hard for any real evidence (which would be a pre-1948 mention or a later explicit list). I bought a book devoted to synagogues in the Old City, and it wasn't there. I looked at the Annex to Israel's letter, which is supposed to have details, and it wasn't there. I looked at a large number of maps and found a Hebrew map ca. 1947 that marks (from memory) a bit more than a dozen synagogues. I found that even more extreme claims had been made officially, such as 56 out of 58 synagogues. I wonder if "houses of worship" is a choice of words that encompasses places like yeshivot as well as synagogues. Can anyone find something more substantial?  Anyway, this 35 claim has to be attributed. Also I don't find Robert Fisk particularly reliable even though his writing on Lebanon is massively impressive. Zerotalk 08:16, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It actually isn't that unlikely - if you compare this to similar Orthodox oriented places (e.g. some areas in Safed, or modern Ultra Orthodox concentrations) - you can easily have a synagogue per 20-100 adult shul goers (this is quite different from what you have in the US, UK, or Australia where many shuls are "mega shuls" with adjoining community centers (and even Jewish day schools) - with hundreds and even thousands of members).. However this can include very small places as well as makeshift places (e.g. kindergarten than doubles up as a synagogue). It does need to be attribued if sourced to a letter. JVL does repeat the claim - . Icewhiz (talk) 10:47, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  And - this Indiana University Press by Tessler book attributes this to a clergyman and scholar in the city. Icewhiz (talk) 10:52, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That Balfour fellow doesn't even try to find sources, takes the two claims and says, without qualification, that "between 35 and 58 synagogues – some hundreds of years old – were demolished, their contents looted."(unsourced). "Between 35 and 58", must be an architect thing.Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was citing Tessler page 329 above. If Balfour has this as well (and architecture scholars are the foremost experts on buildings - and published, lest we forget, by Wiley) - then we have two RSes. The actual gap between 35 and 58 is rather slim - a bit like "who is a Jew?", "what is a Synagogue?" (goes down as low as any place 10 or more Jews semi-regularly meet to pray) has some variance. Icewhiz (talk) 12:58, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Dore Gold telling the UNSC in 1998 "Fifty-eight synagogues, including the 700 year old Hurva Synagogue, were destroyed and desecrated". That Hurva place just gets older every time they tell it. Didn't bother with 56 out of 58, just rounded it up.Selfstudier (talk) 17:30, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

text:  Architecture scholars know bugger all about blowing up buildings; Icewhiz you've had your fun misrepresenting architects, please give it a break. And the huge difference between 35 and 58 proves only that both are unreliable. You are of course correct that synagogues can be very small, even just one room, but we are expected to believe that the Jordanians would destroy such places just when they needed to house the Palestinians expelled from West Jerusalem. It doesn't wash. I'm disappointed with Tessler for citing Oesterreicher's polemic "Jerusalem the Free", which starts with a page-long attack on the Quran and concludes "Jerusalem is Jewish". Oesterreicher just quotes the official claims and doesn't pretend to be a witness, so that's not independent evidence. Zerotalk 21:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why wouldn't you believe so? Such believe is support by their deeds past and present. Debresser (talk) 22:35, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

text:  I represented Balfour accurately in the section above - please strike your incorrect assertion of "misrepresenting" which is a personal attack. You seem to have a dislike of the field of architecture, however this is published by a reputable publisher. Architecture scholars surely are the foremost experts on buildings in the modern era. Your disappointment with another RS (not an architect) - Tessler - is also of little weight. Icewhiz (talk) 05:16, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , I suggest removing Gold and  putting numbers given by the eyewitness as per your source --Shrike (talk) 12:36, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I found the Chief Rabbi Herzog on record at the time in 1948 (I suppose he might well know how many synagogues there were) as saying that there were 27 synagogues in the Old City and that as of that time, 22 had been destroyed.Selfstudier (talk) 13:02, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , If various WP:RS say different things we should put all of them or give a range per WP:NPOV --Shrike (talk) 13:29, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As you can perhaps see, I have been putting in all of them.Selfstudier (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Another issue is the difference between destruction during the fighting and destruction afterwards. Lots of sources say that the JQ suffered extreme damage during the battle (e.g. NYT May 28: "Most of the Jewish quarter is now a complete ruin.") But Israeli propaganda wants us to believe that all the synagogues were destroyed afterwards. Zerotalk 14:10, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , If you find a source that make such distinction go ahead and add it to the article otherwise we don't want to parrot Jordanian propaganda Shrike (talk) 14:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume we do not want to parrot propaganda, full stop, regardless of its source.Selfstudier (talk) 14:56, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Those 35 houses of worship 

message: I was going to undo this revert by  on the grounds that if it is OK to include destroyed synagogues then it surely must be OK to mention closed mosques. Still, before I do so, anyone know has the Sidna Omar mosque actually been reopened? Selfstudier (talk) 10:19, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for highlighting this. I have reverted it. I don’t know whether they have been reopened. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mentioning mosques in lead 

message: The extent and cause of the damage to synagogues in the 1948 war is disputed. See for example:
* David Hirst, “Rush to Annexation: Israel in Jerusalem.” Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. 3, no. 4, 1974, pp. 3–31: "The Israelis lost no time in demonstrating that. In the Jewish Quarter, 34 synagogues - or 58, for the Israeli propagandists gaily alternate between these two equally definitive figures - were destroyed or desecrated by the Arabs... In Jerusalem, the Israelis frequently appear to work on the principle that the bigger the lie the better. They count - and with considerable success - on the partisan gullibility of supposedly responsible newsmen to substantiate the lie in the outside world. A little research would expose the glibly disseminated "facts" about desecration in the Jewish Quarter for the brazen nonsense they are. For one thing there were only three or four structural synagogues proper. The rest were no more than rooms set aside for prayer, in the devout Jewish fashion, in houses that were mainly rented from Arabs. For another the real damage was brought about by the Jews themselves. As Glubb Pasha, the commander of the Arab Legion, recalls, Jewish snipers used synagogues, with their domes that overlooked the whole quarter, as strongholds in the war of 1948. The local Arab commander tried to spare them; he warned the snipers that unless they desisted his men would return their fire; after the passage of forty-eight hours without a reply, they did so."
See also the discussion from 2021 at Talk:Islamization of Jerusalem#Evacuations and Destruction of Synagogues. 
I have removed the sentence added earlier today by Tombah:  This is not even a dispute – in the post-war Jordanian rule period I am not aware of any such destruction being claimed.
Onceinawhile (talk) 20:57, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synagogues in 1948 

message: Change population from 2,000 to 3,000. 2,000 is unsourced. https://www.jpost.com/opinion/op-ed-contributors/demography-in-jerusalems-old-city-319724 says 3,000. 71.230.163.181 (talk) 16:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Lightoil (talk) 04:32, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2023