Talk:Murder of Shanda Sharer

message: This article needs a substantial re-write, at the moment it reads like a poorly written true crime book not an encyclopedia. One Night In Hackney303 10:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tone

message: Partially to address the above concern, and also because this article is more about the murder than Sharer herself, I propose we move this to Shanda Sharer murder case where we can include background on her and the killers, instead of awkwardly spreading it over 5 articles. Perhaps Melinda Loveless should remain a separate article but I'm not really sure yet. --W.marsh 23:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm in favour naturally. One Night In Hackney303 06:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  change in scope/move 

message: This has got to be one of the worst articles on Wikipedia.  And that's saying a lot.  It's like a novel about Larry Loveless.  Is this some ploy to show that the murderers are just abused victims themselves?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.186.247 (talk) 04:04, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: See...this is what I don't get. Why go on the talk page multiple times to complain about poor writing when you are perfectly capable of fixing it yourself? Second, It's beyond rude to go about it in this fashion. Point out issues that need to be fixed, no problem, but whoever wrote this article spent a lot of time on it and deserve a little more respect than to be insulted like that. Bali88 (talk) 13:37, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  CRAP 

message: I think some biographical info could be merged into the description of the events or the following prosecution, but to me, much of the biographical information about the girls seems unnecessary and seems to break the flow. I wanted other feedback before deleting it and merging it with the rest of the article. Bali88 (talk) 13:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think biographical material in this particular case is needed. Atleast a few lines. The rest could be incorporated into the article for a nicer flow. --BabbaQ (talk) 15:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that some is beneficial. I'm wondering if the article might be easier to read if the description of the attack comes first and then the biographical info was put into the section about the prosecution as to how the mitigating factors applied. I'll work on this article this month. Bali88 (talk) 17:42, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

text: Yes the article just summarizes the lengthy chapters about each of the perpetrators from that book. The idea that this is illegal is laughable. The book was one of two written about the crime, so relative to all of the reliable sources about this crime it's clear that biographical information about the perpetrators is a notable topic. The other book "Little Lost Angel" focuses more on Sharer and should be summarized too I think. --Here2rewrite (talk) 23:50, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Are all the bio's necessary?

message: "The case was covered on national programs..."
:I don't like this entire sentence, which seems to cheapen the incident, especially given the prominence of the lead section.  I'd delete it.  If desired, replace it with more context from the incident.
In its present form, the Infobox reminds me of a grave marker. I wish the Infobox "fleshed out" Shanda or the incident a little more.  Could contain these parameters:
:* death_cause
:* education
:* height, weight
:* religion (e.g. Attended XXXXX church)
--LukasMatt (talk) 10:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead section and Infobox

message: The Wiki article "St. Paul Elementary School (Louisville)" no longer exists.  It redirects to "Louisville Catholic elementary schools", which does not contain St. Paul Elementary School or the apparent new name "St. Paul Parish School".  Therefore, I've removed the internal link.  If desired, here is the external link to the school:
:http://www.saintpaulschool.net/
Readers would probably be very interested to know why Shanda transferred from Hazelwood Middle School "early in the school year".
--LukasMatt (talk) 23:00, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shanda Sharer 

message: "In 1990, 14-year-old Melinda Loveless began dating..."
:This sentence needs a transition from the preceding "Shanda Sharer" section.  The sentence should be worded something like:
::In 1990, Melinda Loveless, a 14-year-old student at Our Lady of Perpetual Help School, began dating...
::or
::In 1990, Melinda Loveless, a 14-year-old girl in New Albany, Indiana, began dating...
"Loveless started to date an older girl"
:Is this older girl Tackett?  If yes, she must be named here.  If no, delete the whole sentence.
"arranged for her to transfer to a Catholic school"
:At this point, readers have heard about three different schools that Sharer attended.  The last school was "Our Lady of Perpetual Help School, a Catholic school in New Albany".  To alleviate confusion, the article needs to tell readers the name of the Catholic school where Sharer's parents intended to transfer her.
"arranged for her to transfer to a Catholic school in late November, and the girls started drifting apart"
:More confusion.  Did Sharer transfer to the school? ("arranged for her to transfer" does not mean that she actually transferred)
:If yes
:* Then, I understand why the girls started drifting apart
:* The sentence should be worded "Sharer's parents transferred her to a Catholic school in late November"
:If no
:* Then, I don't understand why the girls started drifting apart
--LukasMatt (talk) 17:20, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Events prior to murder 

message: Again, no transition.  This time--from the "Events prior to murder" section to the "Pre-abduction" section.  What's the connection between Tackett and Loveless?
"drive the four girls to Jeffersonville, Indiana, where Sharer lived"
:Readers were last told "the family moved to New Albany, Indiana, in June 1991"
"with a dull knife"
:The article has already mentioned "knife" twice previously, so
:* Why does it now use the indefinite article "a" rather than the definite article "the"?
:* Why does it now use a descriptive adjective "dull"?  This descriptive adjective should appear on the first mention of "knife".
:In short, readers are again confused.  Is this the same knife as previously mentioned or a second knife?
--LukasMatt (talk) 03:48, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre-abduction

message: No suggestions
--LukasMatt (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Abduction

message: No suggestions
--LukasMatt (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Burned alive

message: The quality of the article starts to decline in this section.
Readers would definitely like to know details about the forensic evidence (such details are readily available on the Internet).
Zero mention about the arrests of Lawrence and Rippey.
--LukasMatt (talk) 09:28, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Investigation

message: I agree with Bali88, BabbaQ, and 68.12.186.247 regarding the Larry Loveless material.  Therefore, the "People involved in incident" section has been deleted with its contents distributed as follows:
* Timeline--given that six out of nine items in the "Timeline" relate to the judicial process, moved to that section;
* Background information about the suspects--moved to the "Judicial Process/Mitigating Factors" section;
* Some Larry Loveless information--moved to the "Aftermath" section
* Some Larry Loveless information--moved to the the "Are all the bio's necessary?" Talk section for safekeeping
--LukasMatt (talk) 13:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: People involved in incident

message: I don't know what to think about the "Timeline".  Personally, I would rather delete it and include a photo gallery of the four girls.
====Sentences====
Even though the "TimeLine" includes a vague "Lawrence accepts plea bargain", the article text says nothing about her exact sentence.  Readers are especially interested to know Lawrence's sentence because the article seems to describe her as the least willing participant in the attack and the only suspect to contact the police.
Readers want to know the exact mitigating circumstances that caused a 10-year reduction in Rippey's sentence, especially given that she was a very active participant in the attack.
Where were Lawrence and Rippey incarcerated?
====Appeals====
"Instead, Loveless will be eligible for parole in 15 years, thus maintaining the original guilty plea."
:Readers are confused.  Did Loveless get something positive from the hearing (e.g. eligible for parole in 15 years when originally she had been eligible for parole, say, in 20 years)?  If her request was simply rejected, delete the entire sentence.
:Moreover, the math doesn't add up.  In the "Sentences" section, readers are told "With maximum time reduced for good behavior, [Loveless] could be released in 2020".  Now, in the "Appeals" section, readers are told:
:: 2008 + "eligible for parole in 15 years" = 2023
::which leads readers to believe that Loveless has not behaved well in prison.
:The citation link is broken.
"Small stated that he would seek to have jurisdiction..."
:The citation link is broken.
Any appeals by the other convicted girls?
====Incareceration====
"both women could possibly walk out of prison in 2022"
::Again, readers sense that Loveless and Tackett have not behaved well in prison.
====Releases====
Toni Lawrence was released from where?
"On April 28, 2006, Hope Rippey was released" and "She will remain on supervised parole for 5 years"
: This information is out of date.  It is now 2014.  Therefore, the sentence should read "She remained on supervised parole for 5 years", or if her conditions after release changed, the sentence must be completely reworded.
--LukasMatt (talk) 04:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Judicial Process

message: Toni Lawrence was released from where?
"On April 28, 2006, Hope Rippey was released" and "She will remain on supervised parole for 5 years"
: This information is out of date.  It is now 2014.  Therefore, the sentence should read "She remained on supervised parole for 5 years", or if her conditions after release changed, the sentence must be completely reworded.
--LukasMatt (talk) 04:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Releases

message: No suggestions
--LukasMatt (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Aftermath

message: When I tried the Dr. Phil external link "In Cold Blood: A Daughter's Brutal Murder", I could not access the entire website.  I did not flag the link with a  template, though, because I can't imagine that the site is dead.
--LukasMatt (talk) 01:46, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: In popular culture

message: This article overuses the Jones book Cruel Sacrifice (26 out of 49 citations--53.07%), especially in sections "Shanda Sharer" through "Mitigating Factors" (25 out of 30 citations--83%).  Good scholarship relies upon multiple sources.  If the sources disagree on an important point--fine...the article can mention the disagreement.
Besides the David Lohr source, which the article cites three times, I also encountered these web pages that cover the Shanda Sharer story in detail:
:Fun Trivia: K : Kids Who Kill / Special Sub-Topic: The Murder of Innocence
:CMM-Crime, Mystery & Mayhem "SHANDA RENEE SHARER (12) - THE HEINOUS TORTURE & MURDER BY MELINDA LOVELESS (16) - MARY LAURINE "LAURIE" TACKETT (17) - HOPE RIPPEY (15) - TONI LAWRENCE (15)"
I'm not saying that they are reliable sources.  At a minimum, they may provide interesting information for additional research.
--LukasMatt (talk) 02:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The tough part is that this crime took place before the internet, so while it got extensive news coverage, most of that is archived and not available online. I think we could probably get away with a less detailed summary of events though and just go with an overview of the crime itself. That would make things easier. Bali88 (talk) 03:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Despite the gaps and occasional inconsistencies, this article is very interesting.  After somebody implements the suggestions listed here from the GOCE review, you might consider nominating it for "good article" status.
--LukasMatt (talk) 05:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Comments

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Murder of Shanda Sharer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080130151351/http://www.indystar.com:80/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080109/LOCAL/801090482 to http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080109/LOCAL/801090482
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090122082928/http://www.wlfi.com:80/dpp/news/indiana/ind_ap_madison_appeal_denied_in_1992_torture_death_200811208412099396 to http://www.wlfi.com/dpp/news/indiana/ind_ap_madison_appeal_denied_in_1992_torture_death_200811208412099396
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 20:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Murder of Shanda Sharer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140410230347/http://www.crimelibrary.com:80/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html to http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090412152913/http://www.news-tribune.net:80/local/local_story_287081802.html to http://www.news-tribune.net/local/local_story_287081802.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090122082928/http://www.wlfi.com:80/dpp/news/indiana/ind_ap_madison_appeal_denied_in_1992_torture_death_200811208412099396 to http://www.wlfi.com/dpp/news/indiana/ind_ap_madison_appeal_denied_in_1992_torture_death_200811208412099396
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140410230347/http://www.crimelibrary.com:80/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html to http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140410230347/http://www.crimelibrary.com:80/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html to http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/shanda_sharer/1.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
:They all worked except the news-tribune link, which has a robots.txt block on archive.org.  I found where the live page had moved to on the web and also archived it with webcitation.org so it should be all good now. TheBlinkster (talk) 22:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Murder of Shanda Sharer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090122082928/http://www.wlfi.com:80/dpp/news/indiana/ind_ap_madison_appeal_denied_in_1992_torture_death_200811208412099396 to http://www.wlfi.com/dpp/news/indiana/ind_ap_madison_appeal_denied_in_1992_torture_death_200811208412099396
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 17:40, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Murder of Shanda Sharer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6f5ACR6F8?url=http://www.artslant.com/ew/artists/rackroom/16588-marlene-mccarty to http://www.artslant.com/ew/artists/rackroom/16588-marlene-mccarty
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:01, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Was there any kind of remorse from the girls that did this horrible thing?? They are all released from prison, way too soon, in my opinion they should have got the death penalty!! I wonder what kind of lives they all had, cause little Shanda didn't get to have a life!! This whole thing makes me so mad!! It was not only one death, but also the "life sentence" of the girls father, and his death!! I don't think there was "justis" here. 107.77.194.82 (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I met Hope Rippey once.  I had to "remove" her from private property & she certainly wasn't ready to pick on someone her own size without her murderous friends to back her up. 174.214.50.41 (talk) 04:09, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murder of Shanda Sharer