Talk:Abraham Firkovich

message: This article needs to have various slurs (e.g. entitling a section as "Forgeries" is very POV) removed. The fringe theories of one school of related academics on Firkovich needs to be put into a "Critics" section if indeed there is any need at all for such comments in an article like this one (being that the published opinions of Nazi critics would not be deemed appropriate let alone tolerated on any article about a Jew, so-too the opinion of Karaite Jewish authors on Karaylar is inappropriate given that Karaite Jews consider Karaylar to be "bastards"). The details of this dispute have been outlines in the underlying topic areas. Kaz 00:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article as it is is based on the 1906 Jewish Encyclopaedia article on Abraham Firkovich, which is a public domain reliable source. If you have alternative reliable sources about details in the article, these improvmente/change suggestions can be discussed here, based on agreed reliable sources. Mainstream historical researchers such as Abraham Geiger and others are directly cited in the article as arguing that some of Firkovich's own sources for his ethnical arguments were possible forgeries. warshytalk 13:55, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

text: I haven't made any recent changes apart from adding the tags and I only did that because you won't allow anyone to touch "your baby" as I can see that you got yourself into an edit war. You have your fringe ideas, and just because there are more people in your group than there are in this minority nation you think that your opinion is more valid. That is called academic imperialism my friend. The opinion of the minority nation in question should never be swept under the table. In any normal society it should always be given precedence even if the minority nation is verging on extinction. In fact in such cases more weight is usually given to what they have to say about themselves in the interests of preserving their story. Then after that it is ok to present what other nations have to say about the nation in question. Firkovich is one of our own. There may only be about 2000 of us left alive in this world but of course we will fight tooth and nail to defend our people from ad hominem attacks like the one you promote here. Jewish opinion on Firkovich matters not. Karaylar opinion on him is what matters most. Kaz 19:10, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV dispute (especially but not only [[Abraham Firkovich#Forgeries]] section) 

message: To the anonymous editor who is trying to make this correction and add information based on an apparently reliable source he names. I don't know the source but the change and the new information being provided seem interesting and also relevant. If you're willing to put a link to the source here, in the same manner it would be added to the article, I am definitely willing to look at it and accept your suggested correction and new info based on it. Maybe you're also willing to name yourself? Thanks, warshytalk 13:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ADDENDUM - I don't know Dan Shapira or the book you mention and I don't think he is currently mentioned as a source in the main WP Karaism article. But maybe, after discussion here, we can also add him as a possible reliable source there too. warshytalk 15:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khazars vs. Israelite tribes 

message: Any insertion of new sectarian content into this page will have to be discussed here, point by point, sentence by sentence. Otherwise it is just going to be undone. warshytalk 23:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no slander against any sect in the article as it stands. The only slander may be against the subject of the article, but this is a matter of historical debate, and any assertion here will have to be backed up by reliable sources. warshytalk 11:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

text: I already outlined the issues clearly, and that this will need mediation because of your apparent bias. Kaz 12:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karaylar changes will have to be discussed here first 

message: Also, in your suggested "blank" change from Karaite to Karaylar there is no wikilink at all to the term "karaylar". That would be the first step. And then we can go paragraph by paragraph on your suggested changes. warshytalk 15:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Avraham had no interest in Karaite Jews, he was only interested in uncovering evidence supporting the Karaylar traditions of our origins before the Khazar period. With the astonishing diplomacy of a saint he procured many Jewish (Rabbinical and Karaite Jewish) documents pertaining to Mosaic missionary activities and migrations to the Bosporan kingdom. I did not do a blank change of Karaite to Karaylar, I simply joined all references which are obviously to Karaite Jews together with Jews, and the remaining references given the context can only be about Karaylar, since Karaite Jews would never have accepted a Khazar "mamzer" (as the Karaite Jewish teachers Jeshuan ben Yehudah and Jacob ben Reuben of Byzanteum put it) like our great leader Firkovich. Basically, we (Karaylar-Karaites) and they (Karaite Jews) simply hate each other. Have you not read this article? http://www.karaite-korner.org/holocaust.htm Naturally, being written by yet another confused Jewish scholar it makes a few mistakes in making out that we Karaylar removed ourselves from the Jewish nation recently, forgetting that even Anan ben David who was converted to our sect of Islam by Abu Hanifa back in the 8th century AD was already a believer in Jesus. But basically it hits the nail on the head, i.e. Karaylar are simply not Jews. I draw your attention in that article to what Firkovich said: “Karaites view Christ and Mohammed as prophets.”" (Green 1978a p.286 quoting Firkowicz p.2) so which type of Karaites do you think dear Firkovich is interested in, Karaite Jews or Karaylar? (-who are not actually Karaites at all but Keraits an ancient Tatar tribe accidentally confused with Karaites by sloppy or overenthusiastic authors). I would like to know your thoughts. Kaz 20:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct about one basic fact: Karaylar are Kerait, a Turkic sect, they are not Karaite and not Jewish at all. About their alleged Khazar "origins," the whole debate about the Khazar historical existence and historical role is not yet decided one way or another. So there is no need to mix them at all. Karaites are of Jewish descent. This other sect you claim are Muslims in their faith or religion, has really nothing to do with Karaites or Judaism. But one thing is declaring yourself not a Karaite. You can declare yourself to be whatever you want. The other thing is claiming to be the "real" Karaites, and claiming not only on the one hand Khazar origins (whose existence from a historical perpective is not even established fact), but also, on the other hand, relationship to Anan ben David, who seceded from Rabbinic Judaism but did not convert to Islam. Can you produce a reliable source that argues that he converted to Islam? The proper way to proceed, in terms of improving Wikipedia articles, would be to first work on adding reliable sources and improving and rewriting the whole Karaylar entry and its associated links. Once that area is solidly established upon reliable sources, then other entries, such as this one, can also point to it on some aside notes. warshytalk 12:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Also, the term Karaylar has to be wikilinked in first appearance. 

message: No, I don't. And this is not a reliable source. But why not start with Firkovich's own ethnic origins, his own ethnic roots? The article states:
He was born in Lutsk, Volhynia, then lived in Lithuania, and finally settled in Çufut Qale, Crimea.
If you know some Jewish history and you read through his wanderings, his political activities, and his career, you can see he had himself no drop of Turkic, Crimean, or Muslim ancestry in his blood at his origins. He was originally an European Russia Karaite (with close ties to European Russia Jews in Volhynia and Lithuania), who spoke Yiddish as a child, and learned Hebrew, and later Russian (and other languages too). After associating himself with Sima Babovich, settling in the Crimea, and becoming the political leader of the Crimean 'Karaites', the story changes, of course. And when you look at their admirable political success in legally separating themselves from the Jews in the imperial halls of Russian power in St. Petersburg, then the whole historical mess and confusion between Karaites and Muslim Crimean Karaites starts to make a lot more sense. warshytalk 16:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Firkovich's own ethnic roots 

message: I did not put/add a letter of editing into the article as it is so far. All I did was restore content that was removed without discussion. What I wrote above is not in the article, it is in the talk page, where improvements to the article should be discussed. It was a first response to the outside biased non-reliable source you yourself recommended for my reading. My sources so far are this WP article itself and the 1906 Jewish Encyclopaedia article on the public domain on which it is based. This is a recognized public domain reliable source on which many WP articles are also based. Buy I will be following up with other sources soon. As for all the tags you put in the article, they don't bother me at all. Quite the contrary, since it was you that started changing content without discussion. I have said from the beginning that I am willing to discuss any change/improvement to the article sentence by sentence here. So all the tags you put just do exactly that: no content will be changed except content that is discussed here first and upon which some type of consensus is reached. As for the "fringe theories" tag, here is an example of the "pot calling the kettle black" if I have ever seen one. Your theories about the ethnic descent of Karaites, based on Firkovich's own theories, are the fringe theories as far as current historical research is concerned. But, no ptoblem either. All these matters will be properly discussed and cleared out in due time, based on existing reliable secondary sources on the subject. warshytalk 13:49, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know anything about any bastards. Certainly, Firkovich's activities and life had deep ramifications into Jewish history, and his work was seriously analyzed by Jewish scholars. Their historical research, including Heinrich Graetz's work on the history of the Karaites is reflected in the content of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopaedia. Your sect are Muslims, as you said, and as such they cannot be Karaites. This is because Karaites are an independent stream that is connected to Hebrew Scripture, but they are certainly not Muslims in their declared religion. Insofar as they would have a declared "religion" that religion would have to be Karaism. Certainly not Islam. If their declared religion was Islam, as yours is, they would not be Karaites. They would simply be Muslims, as you are and want to be. warshytalk 18:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You are just a troll. Not a Jew not a Karaylar. Not even knowledgeable on the subject. You are just a trouble maker. We are not Sunni or Shia Muslims just because we must follow the name of Muhammad by saying salallahu aleihi wasalam as a sign of respect as was the practice of Firkovich. You really know nothing about us. 86.26.236.107 (talk) 19:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper discussion tags 

message: Now that I have caught up a bit on the updated Wikipedia definitions of slurs being used above here, I must say I take very serious offense at the slanderous accusation being thrown at me above. But opportunities to redress this obnoxious grievance will come, I believe, at the right time and the right Wikipedia forum. Unless, that is, you forthwith erase this slander above and apologize for the ignominy right away, right here in this page.
As for what we know (me and you as two individuals) or don't know about Firkovich, I will just ask you a couple of simple, straighforward questions. The article states that these are Firkovich's major works:
- Masah u-Meribah
- Abne Zikkaron
- Khotam Toknit
- Mibkhar Yesharim
- Evel Kavod
- Bene Reshef
Have you ever seen any of these books or manuscripts? If you ever saw them, would you be able to read them? Can you give me here the correct meaning, according to your own understanding, of each of these titles? Thank you. warshytalk 15:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slanderous accusations 

message: "no few therein forgery Firkovich attribute," what does this mean?  Is it an edit gone wrong?
71.163.114.49 (talk) 22:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  garble 

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thread_title:  External links modified