Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 2

message: As the ancient Greeks did not recognize Macedonia as a Hellenic nation, there is absolutely no point in regonizing the Hellenic Republic (Greece) claim to be the righteous owner of the term Macedonian. Since ancient Macedonia is non-Hellenic, any claims to ownership of the name (whose people were spread across the ancient world by Alexander himself) as exclusively Greek is a distortion of history. 132.205.45.148 18:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So of course it follows then that it should be recognised as exclusively Slavic instead? Right.--Theathenae 07:09, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said that Greece can't have a prefecture called Macedonia, only that Greece cannot claim exclusive rights to the name. Besides, how many *real* (traditional ethnic group) Prussians did you find in Prussia anyways? (Note: not the same as German). The United States has a state called New Mexico, and there's a country refered to as Mexico. Californias exist on both sides of the US-Mexico border. There are two countries named Congo! We have two Chinas, two Koreas, used to have two Germanys, there are two Irelands. What's the problem with calling this nation Macedonia? 132.205.95.65 21:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The Germans in Prussia were not ethnic Prussians, but still called themselves Prussian. Names, ah names. Why do so many Christian-names come from the Bible when these people with those names are not semitic? Why do you find so many Britons of antiquity with Latin names when they're not members of any Latinate tribe? Why do the Germanic Frank-descended and Gaullic-descended French speak a Latin language and not a Germanic or Celtic one? 132.205.95.65 21:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The two parts of Ireland are *not* working for a Union. They are working towards something that is yet to be determined. Considering that a great many Protestants in Northern Ireland would like to remain in the UK, while a great many Catholics in Ireland would like to join the Republic of Ireland, this issue is to be resolve. There are two Chinas, the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China. There is a movement to prevent a future unified China in the ROC. I see from the way you write, you are a Greek partisan (ofcourse your username also helps). I used Demosthenes' statement as a supporting point, not the whole of the argument. Your point that It belongs to Greece because the Macedons were Greek and were thought so by ancient Greeks, doesn't really matter if you looked at my statement about Prussians. The Prussians were not German, but the Germans appropriated the name (and some of the territory) for use in their own state of Prussia. This is the most similar parallel I can currently think of. I see no reason not to call Prussia Prussia, just because Germans were the main ethnic group there, and they spoke a Germanic and not a Balitc language. Macedonia occupies part of the region of Macedonia, the people are mostly Slavic, and speak a Slavonic tongue, but that they are slavic doesn't really matter, since they still occupy part of the region of Macedonia, and they called their country Macedonia. Greek petty imperialism focuses on the people. However, the land is also important, and since it occupies a portion of the region traditionally considered as Macedonia, it is perfectly fine to call it Macedonia. Ofcourse even if it did not occupy any part of the region of Macedonia (say if it were in South America), it is the name that it chose for itself. There's a US state called Georgia, there's also a country called Georgia. Does the fact that there's a Cambridge in Massachuettes denigrate the cultural heritage of Cambridge England? Does the fact that Zaire renamed itself the Democratic Republic of the Congo mean that the former Zaire is making a territorial play for the Republic of the Congo (or Congo-Brazzaville) ? The Russe were a Viking tribe, hence Germanic, invited to rule from Kiev (Ukraine), but Russia carries the Germanic name of a country based in the Ukraine, and they're slavs, not germans. Are you saying that Russia should be called Moscow because the capital is Moscow, the people are slavs, and they don't speak a Germanic language? 132.205.44.134 20:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hellenes are misappropriating the name Macedonia for themselves 

message: What was the motivation behind choosing the name "Macedonia" for FYROM? Maybe it might be relevant to look at any documentated evidence of the thought process behind this. I wonder why it wouldn't have been safer to choose the name "Rome" for the country. That way they could have a much better territortial claim, claiming that they were the modern day Roman empire. :) I wonder if Italy would have had any objections... --Rebroad 09:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about "Rome"? 

message: I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. I haven't heard any rational arguments about why shouldn't peopleX be called Macedonians (nationality). People equating Slavs and Slavic language, (Dutch = Dutch Germans, following that logic), people claiming that people X are ashamed of their Slavic heritage (what a nonsense, we would equally be ashamed of any irrational add-ons), greek and bulgarian national-chauvinists, people equating democacy with majorization, people that simply didn't manage to see the ripe version of the poll (Geogre). Facts, numbers, comparative situations, international organizations, media, books of references all calling peopleX Macedonians, all this blatantly ignored. Not to mention self-determination. Not to mention a violation of NPOV policy. I have already warned everybody about ethnic majorization that would, and is already happening to this article/poll, and I haven't seen some steps to prevent that. I mean, yes, I can put this topic to some Wiki IRC channels of friendly countries, and probably get some more votes on the "Macedonian" side, but is that the point of Wikipedia? Wikipedia is about truth, Wikipedia is about freedom, Wikipedia is about knowledge. I can barely see that in this poll. This is already ruining the image of Wikipedia, failing to accept that there is such a thing called Macedonians (nationality), that this is commonly known in the entire world, and barely causes confusion - that is a great shift from reality. I guess the English administration does not see the seriousness required when such delicate themes are discussed, nor it cannot foresee the grave consequences of this adventure. Allowing discrimination on ethnic or quasihistorical basis is a serious human rights issue, and most admins should be aware that they have the responsibility to prevent that. To make myself clear, I will hardly accept the relevance of this poll, regardless who wins. I'm rather wikidepressed right now, so I'm thinking of quitting of the Macedonian project.  I might be off this discussion for a while, meanwhile, I kindly reccomend for this article to be called Macedonian Apes. That will spare "everybody" (the admins and the nationalists) from trouble. Now, I'll climb up my FYROM tree and parasite some bananas. --FlavrSavr 02:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I trust you won't be complaining about "ethnic majorisation" now that it appears to be working in your favour.--Theathenae 06:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be underestimating my honesty, just like you're underestimating my nation. I've started complaining even before the poll actually started (check out the archive). I still think that the poll is a bad idea. --FlavrSavr 14:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the point of going on? (to Zocky) 

message: To the user who consistenly tries to change the number of the Macedonian Slavs in Greece to 962:
The numbers regard the number of INDIGENOUS Macedonian Slavs with Greek citizenship, what you quote is the number of legal emigrants from RoM living in Greece. If you had paid any attention to the discussion before (you haven't), you would have found out that there was a dispute whether the article should include only the Greek government estimate (10,000) or estimates from other sources, which, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION, amount to as high as 350,000 people. If you wanna continue to substitute 962 for 10,000, I'll find myself forced to add the other sources, as well - not only the Greek government estimate of 10,000 but also the one of Helsinki watch (240,000) and the speculations of the Macedonian government (up to 350,000). Your choice. VMORO 21:31, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
: Dude, no need for such kind of language. You make it sound like a threat. I mean, go ahead and add the sources, who's gonna stop you? Project2501a 22:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers

message: ::For EU see:http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=522728
::EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT RESOLUTION ON WESTERN BALKANS
::At the same time, it voted down the amendments urging the Council to recognize FYROM under its constitutional name (139 in favor, 398 against and 26 abstentions).
 
::Vergina 20:59, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vergina's comment to Ivica83 

message: See [http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0 This is falsification of Etymology! Vergina 19:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Decius, here's the translation of the sentence: Because of the Great Mother cult which was practised not only in Macedonia and the Balkans, but also on a broader region the word Makedonia is a coin word from Make (mother) and Don (land), on the ancient Macedonian language. Therefore, Macedonia means Mother Land. I have no idea whether those are ancient Macedonian words or not, but they do look suspicious to me too. The text is not so well organized, but: 1. there are several other  explanations of the etymology of the term, one of them being that the name comes from greek words etc. and 2. although, it is slightly confusing, it mentions prominent representatives of the theories shown: Nada Proeva, J.R. Ellis, and a greek archeologist Photis Petzas. Because I'm not an expert historian, I left them there (and also added some cosmetics and links on them), until someone negates these theories are actually supported by scientific research. The Egyptians - Macedonians parallel works pretty well, because, although their language is Arabic (the peopleX's language is Macedonian, officialy, not Macedonian Slavic), and although there are groups (the Copts) that are more likely to have more in common with the "true" Egyptians, their right to declare themselves seems indisputed, while peopleX's right is denied. --FlavrSavr 15:47, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The first expressions of a separate X identity actually go back a few decades further than Tito, but that's not even the real issue. Denying their existence as a separate nation is not the policy of the Greek government. Greece respects their right to self-determination, as long as it doesn't infringe on Greece's right to self-identify as a (partly) Macedonian nation. If people X called themselves anything other than "Macedonian", Greece would have no issue with their distinct nationhood. But whether one likes it or not, Greece considers Macedonia an integral part of its national heritage, and this must be taken into account in any fair decision regarding the name. "Macedonian Slav" is the only viable compromise solution to this otherwise intractable dispute. It is the only alternative term that has been used internationally, including by Greeks, and I personally know X moderates who would not consider it the end of the world or a gross violation of their human rights. I find it interesting that nationalists of the X persuasion would lay claim to Saints Cyril and Methodius and the Old Slavonic language when they show such disdain for the term "Slav" in the ethnonymic context. Why? Finally, I remind you that Kiro Gligorov himself suggested "Slavomakedonija" back in the early 90s.--Theathenae 16:17, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Falsification of Etymology

message: The only difference here being that Belgians and Egyptians describe peoples entirely contained within the nations of Belgium and Egypt. Belgium and Egypt occupy the whole of Belgium and Egypt, not a mere 38%, and nobody but a Belgian or Egyptian would describe his or herself that way.  Also, none of the ethnic groups in Belgium or Egypt claims the exclusive right to call itself ethnic "Belgians" or ethnic "Egyptians" speaking "Belgian" or "Egyptian". A truer parallel would be if the Walloons started claiming that they were the Belgians (and that the Flemings were irrelevant; the more hotheaded "Belgians" would openly say that Flanders should be "liberated" and the Flemings should leave). As for Palestinians, the Israelis have consciously rejected the term to describe themselves, whereas the (non-people X) Macedonians have never stopped calling themselves Macedonians.--Theathenae 11:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belgians, Egyptians, Palestinians 

message: CLEOPATRA SBORUVALA NA  MAKEDONSKI JAZIK
CLEOPATRA SPOKE IN THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE!
See:
http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2005/sonce570.pdf/50_52_donski.pdf
Vergina 16:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He is clearly talking about the ancient Macedonian language. --FlavrSavr 18:05, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Clearly"? The intentions and implications of exclaiming that "Cleopatra spoke Macedonian!" (as if this were some kind of earth-shattering revelation), and calling the language "Makedonski jazik" when that is exactly the same name given to the unrelated modern Slavic language, are quite obvious. The author makes no attempt to disambiguate the ancient Macedonian language from the modern "Macedonian" language, leaving your average "Macedonian" assuming that they are one and the same. This kind of deliberate historical falsification lies at the heart of the "Macedonian" issue.--Theathenae 00:21, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: What's up next? Well, you know, we were working on an atomic bomb, specifically designed to attack Athens, and and a brainwashing TV program that will cause Greek Macedonians to ally with us, when our super-troopers would launch the final offensive. Mwhahaha! --FlavrSavr 22:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Cute, but off subject. Etz Haim 19:56, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, but what is the subject? --FlavrSavr 22:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Witty you. After Cleopatra was unrolled from her carpet in front of Caesar, she was asked about it and said: "NE ZNAM." So 1) she was off topic too and 2) she spoke in Macedonian. Killer piece of evidence by Cleopatra's contemporary Vasil Ilyov... But wait... Even if he was her contemporary, would he still have been able to salvage  a 7000 year old WOODEN inscription in Macedonian? Etz Haim 10:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Eccentrics such as that anonymous Vasil Ilyov do not constitute the majority of the Macedonian's opinion. Macedonian people clearly recognize the difference between the ancient and the modern Macedonian language. That's what I actually ment when saying that you're "underestimating my nation" - they're not that stupid. There's no such thing as Macedonian irredentism towards Greece, except for maybe a handful of dumb folks. --FlavrSavr 03:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The falsification of the Macedonian language as Greek language

message: Which people is the "Macedonian Slavs"?
Macedonian Slavs are the Bulgarian people of Yugoslavian Vardarska Banovina.See map:
Vardarska Banovina.
1945 ago no slav people existed as Macedonians.Only Serbs and Bulgars.
See ethnographic maps:
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/6475/brailsford.jpg
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8450/MapbyAmiBoue1847.jpg
http://img67.exs.cx/img67/5561/Safariknarodi.jpg
http://img10.exs.cx/img10/3681/mackenzie.jpg
http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg
http://img56.exs.cx/img56/3069/slaveni-karta.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/1241/ResizeofEuropavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/8127/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg ( ????)
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/races_balkan_shepherd_1923.jpg
http://img57.exs.cx/img57/7518/macedonia_19192.jpg
http://www.cjcr.cam.ac.uk/gateway/maps/Ethnic16.gif
See Yugoslavian ethnographic 1921-1931(Serbs,Croats,Slovenians):
http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolazJugosl1921-31.jpg
IMRO,the Macedonian revolutionary organisation,was likewise a Bulgarian organization.
See "Invitation from the central revolutionary commitee to all Bulgarians"
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7216/Invitation1893.jpg
All of the documents are in  Bulgarian language. 
Vergina 07:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”. 
Vergina 07:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I doubt the Greek POV matters to you at all; you will continue to ignore it however it is presented. Vergina simply makes the point that the Slav-speaking population of Macedonia were not regarded as ethnic "Macedonians" until fairly recently. That is a valid point to make, even if you find it irritating. And the fact that Greek-speakers were not in the majority among the Macedonian peasantry does not negate their continued and unbroken presence in the region over a period of millennia. Moreover, the maps belie the substantial Greek presence in the urban areas throughout Macedonia, not just Chalcidice as you claim.--Theathenae 07:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Which people is the "Macedonian Slavs"?

message: It is a fact that the slavic population FYROMs are not the Macedonian (ethnicity).
Whether the Macedonian (ethnicity) Greeks are or not is not discussion-subject here.Nevertheless!
Are Alexander I,king of Macedonia not Greek?
See Herodot(Kalliopi IX 45):
*45-They at once, hearing this, made haste to the outpost, where they found Alexander, who addressed them as follows:"Men of Athens, that which I am about to say I trust to your honour; and I charge you to keep it secret from all excepting Pausanias, if you would not bring me to destruction. Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece, I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself a Greek by descent, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery. Know then that Mardonius and his army cannot obtain favourable omens; had it not been for this, they would have fought with you long ago. Now, however, they have determined to let the victims pass unheeded, and, as soon as day dawns, to engage in battle. Mardonius, I imagine, is afraid that, if he delays, you will increase in number. Make ready then to receive him. Should he however still defer the combat, do you abide where you are; for his provisions will not hold out many more days. If ye prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Greek cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon." 
As soon as he had said this, Alexander rode back to the camp, and returned to the station assigned him. 
The Macedonian Language(Greek) 
45.Οι δε έπει ταύτα ήκουσαν, αυτίκα είποντο ες τάς φύλακας. Άπικομένοισι δε έλεγε Αλέξανδρος τάδε' "Άνδρες Αθηναίοι, παραθήκην υμίν τα έπεα τάδε τίθεμαι, απόρρητα ποιεύμενος προς μηδένα λέγειν υμέας άλλον ή Παυσανίην, μη με και διαφθείρητε• ου γαρ αν έλεγον, ει μη μεγάλως έκηδόμην συναπάσης της Ελλάδος• αυτός τε γαρ Έλλην γένος ειμί τώρχαίον, και άντ' ελευθέρης δεδουλωμένην ουκ αν έθέλοιμι όραν την Ελλάδα. Λέγω δε ων ότι Μαρδονίω τε και τη στρατιή τα σφάγια ου δύναται καταθύμια γενέσθαι" πάλαι γαρ αν έμάχεσθε• νυν δε οι δέδοκται τα μεν σφάγια εάν χαίρειν, άμα ήμέρη δε διαφωσκούση συμβολήν ποιέεσθαι' κα-ταρρώδηκε γαρ μη πλέονες συλλεχθήτε, ως εγώ εικάζω. Προς ταύτα ετοιμάζεστε. ην δε άρα υπερβάληται την συμβολήν Μαρδόνιος και μη ποιήται, λιπαρέετε μένοντες• όλιγέων γαρ σφι ήμερέων λείπεται αιτία. Ην δε υμίν ο πόλεμος όδε κατά νόον τελευτήση, μνησθήναί τίνα χρή και έμέο έλευθερώσιος περί, ός Ελλήνων είνεκα έργον ούτω παράβολον έργασμαι υπό προθυμίης, έθέλων υμίν δηλώσαι την διάνοιαν την Μαρδονίου, ίνα μη έπιπέσωσι υμίν εξαίφνης οι βάρβαροι μη προσδεκομέ-νοισί κω. Ειμί δε Αλέξανδρος ό Μακεδών." Ό μεν ταύτα είπας άπήλαυνε οπίσω ες το στρατόπεδον και την έωυτού τάξι (Herodot) 
*Tito Livius XXXI 29, 15 
"...there were representatives from Aitoloi, Acarnanes, Macedonians, people homoglossoi (speaking the same Greek language)..."
Macedonians=Not Macedonian Slavs
Vergina 23:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I knew it! *Takes a peep underneath Decius's Greek skirt*--Theathenae 06:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Decius, is your father's heritage Hellenophone or Aromanian?--Theathenae 07:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Hellenophone. But they spoke Romanian also at least as far back as my great-grandfather, and my father never learned Greek, and neither did I. Beyond my great-grandfather, I don't know if they spoke Romanian. I know my great-grandfather spoke Greek also because his wife was a Greek who didn't speak much Romanian. Decius 07:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And to think Ypsilantis actually believed people like you would help us rise up against the Turkish yoke. Ts ts ts...--Theathenae 07:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: My exact words were "people like you". It's interesting that you seem so proud of your forebears assimilating as Rumanians when you're so hostile towards Aromanians who have assimilated as Greeks.--Theathenae 07:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Well I'll try to make it relevant to the page then. Your attitude towards the Aromanians kinda reminds me of the grkomani slur that nationalists of the X persuasion hurl at Macedonian Slav-speakers (and even their non-Slavophone descendants) who identify as Greeks. The very same people who preach "self-determination", nonetheless.--Theathenae 07:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Nationalists of the X persuasion would say there are over 1  million "Macedonians" in "Aegean Macedonia", out of a total population of just under 2.5 million. They'd also say that Solun e nash (Thessaloniki is ours). On the other hand, the Skopje-aligned Rainbow Party (Ouranio Toxo in Greek) received a mere 6,176 votes at the last European elections in 2004 in a free, fair and secret ballot. They achieved their best result in Florina, widely acknowleged in Greece as the Slavic heartland of Macedonia; but even there they only managed a paltry 3.13%. Their next best result was not even in Macedonia; it was among the Muslim population in the Thracian prefecture of Rodhopi, with 0.44%. Their next best result in Macedonia was in the Pella prefecture, with a grand total of 0.39%. As parties stand for election across the entire length and breadth of the country, that national total of 6,176 includes people in Greece's positively ethnically undiverse deep south who probably only voted for them on account of their pretty name. (I found their 148 Cretan votes particularly amusing.) And that number certainly excludes the much larger number of Slavophones in Macedonia who identify as Greeks and see the Rainbow Party as an affront to their Greek identity. Or maybe they're just afraid to show their true colours (excuse the pun), after all those evil, barbarian Greeks have done to them. I really don't know the answer to your question.--Theathenae 08:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For the sake of accuracy: Rainbow Party is not so "Skopje-aligned", because contrary to what they were expected to do, they were among the first to declare that they support a no-border-changes policy. This has brought a clash between them and the official FYROM administration. Etz Haim 20:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To be fair, I don't think the government in Skopje advocates any border changes. After all, if the borders in the region ever do change, it will certainly not be in Skopje's favour. I described the Rainbow Party as "Skopje-aligned" purely in terms of the ethnonational persuasion of its adherents, i.e. not Greek and not Bulgarian.--Theathenae 22:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Are Alexander I,king of Macedonia not [[Macedonian]] and [[Greek people|Greek]]?

message: One of the ideas non-partisan international observers have toyed with in the past is to use the native Slavic terms Republika Makedonija for the country and Makedonski for the people and language even in English, along the lines of Republika Srpska instead of Serbian Republic, Belarus instead of White Russia or Byelorussia, Moldova instead of Moldavia and Iran and Farsi instead of Persia and Persian. Makedonski makes it abundantly clear that it is a Slavic language; Macedonian does not. Accordingly, the terms Macedonia and Macedonian(s) would be reserved for the wider region or specifically for Macedonia (Greece) as the modern counterpart of ancient Macedon.--Theathenae 15:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no logical reason to reseve Macedonia for Greece in your argument. What would you call Prussia, given your stance that the Prussians are not the Germanics who lost East Prussia to the USSR? If we have Republic of Macedonia for the country; Macedonian as a disambiguation page for: Macedonian (nationality) (Or Republic of Macedonia national) for the people of that country, Macedonian, Macedonian (slavic ethnicity) for the ethnic Macedonians that are a slavic people, Macedonian (slavophonic language), Macedonian (ancient ethnicity) for the pre-Hellenized Macedonians of antiquity, Macedonian (antiquity) for things related to the kingdom and empire of antiquity, Macedonian (region) for things related to the region of Macedonia, Macedonian (Greek biased word definition) for an article on the controversy profferred by Greek special interest groups; Macedonia as a disambiguation page for RoM, Macedonia (antiquity) for the old Empire / Kingdom of Alexandrian days, Macedonia (political subdivisions of Greece) for the Greek prefectures/etc, Macedonia (region) for the geographic region, Macedonia (Greek biased word definition) which redirects to the Macedonian page above. Then we can start disambiguating Greece and Greek. 132.205.44.134 21:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Because that would reflect the continuity between the ancient Macedonians who spoke Greek and the modern Macedonians who speak Greek. But the primary issue here is what to call people X and their country. What do you say?--Theathenae 15:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Are you kidding me, Decie? Whatever language the Macedonians spoke in 500 BCE, they all spoke Greek by the time the Romans arrived. Wouldn't you say they were still ancient then?--Theathenae 16:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Fact: Macedonians have been speaking Greek at least a thousand years longer than they have been speaking Slavic. The language the "original" ancient Macedonians spoke is largely irrelevant; the ancient Macedonians were indisputably Greek by the time of the Roman conquest - several centuries before the first Slavs arrived - and were quite arguably Greek from the very beginning. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as it doesn't change the essence of my argument one iota. And sorry for calling you Decius instead of Decie in the correct vocative case.--Theathenae 16:09, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, what about the large portion of the ancient Macedonian population that accepted the Slavic language in the Middle Ages? The language the original ancient Macedonians spoke is the most relevant, when you're making such parallels. You are actually assuming that only the Greek influence on the Macedonians is relevant, which is, so obviously, biased. --FlavrSavr 16:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: How many words? Off the top of my head I can think of at least two modern Greek words that have survived from ancient Macedonian: κρεβάτι (kreváti, bed) and καράβι (karávi, boat).--Theathenae 17:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Maybe Vergina knows. Hehe..--Theathenae 17:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Vergina 17:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Vergina 18:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: That won't work. We don't use "Russki" for the Russians or "Hrvati" for the Croatians so why use "Makedonski" for the Macedonians? Remember that this is the English Wikipedia, so the common English name should be used - which happens to be "Macedonians". -- ChrisO 23:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your argument collides with the reality of the use in English of Monégasque for the people of Monaco and their language, Moldovan instead of Moldavian, Rusyn instead of Ruthenian and Republika Srpska instead of Serbian Republic, to mention just four examples. None of Skopje's supporters can proffer a valid reason why the same convention can't be applied here. As for the "common" English name, 13 years is hardly long enough to establish what is common usage, especially when that usage either unintentionally or deliberately ignores the history of the use of the name in the English language and the fact that its use by people X is disputed.--Theathenae 00:15, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't translate every foreign name into English, which is why we call the Deutsch the Germans but we call the Xhosa the Xhosa, for instance. It's mostly a matter of historical accident and linguistic needs. Republika Srpska is a special case; it's customarily not translated in order to avoid confusion with Serbia proper (compare "Serbian Republic" with "Republic of Serbia" - in English the two have the same meaning.) In the case of the Macedonians, there's already a well-established term (the word "Macedonian" has been used for hundreds of years, though admittedly not for people X) and there's no confusion with another ethnic group or country called Macedonians or Macedonia. Let's face it, the main issue that you're concerned about is whether they have the right to call themselves Macedonians - but that is entirely a POV issue and isn't something that we as Wikipedians should be deciding. -- ChrisO 10:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Project2501a made a good statement when he said that this poll was used for the purpose of making a point. And this is becoming too chat-based (I admit that I have tried to make a point too, on several ocassions, got carried away by emotions), this perhaps will be my last violation of that policy:
*Republika Makedonija is not the constitutional name of the country, Република Македонија is, since there isn't an constitutional (official) latinicized version of the name. Republika Makedonija as a term, cannot be found in any official international documents of RoM.
*Republic of Macedonia is not only the commonly used version of the constitutional name of RoM, it is the official English translation of "Skopje's" constitutional name after the United States recognized Republic of Macedonia as Republic of Macedonia. 
*Macedonians translated into Macedonian is Makedonci, not Makedonski
*The name of the people, was never a matter of international dispute. United Nation recognize people X as Macedonians (the english version of Makedonci). Also, they have declared themselves as Macedonians, in all English-speaking countries, not as Makedonci.
*As for "people like FlavrSavr" and their "deafening silence"... whatever, that was of really epic dimensions, I'll let you live in them. --FlavrSavr 04:14, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Republika Makedonija'', ''Makedonski''? 

message: Dear god... I have just noticed this... 
*The creation of a "Macedonian" ethnicity is an old commintern (1923)plan in order to create territorial claims against Greece
*None has the right to steal a nation's history
*It is the first step on a wider plan for the destabilization of the area (my favorite)
**People X, are actually CIA agents trying to destroy Greece (my addition)
... please, although this poll is seemingly absurd, do prevent vandalism. --FlavrSavr 02:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that, but I was only drawing attention to that problem, which, sadly, still exists. As for the other,, no one sane in the Republic of Macedonia, has territorial pretensions over the region of Macedonia, considering that would be not only morally wrong, but also politically, economically and legally impossible. It is constitutionally forbidden. Regards. --FlavrSavr 11:14, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who vandalized the Options section? 

message: EXECUTIVE BOARD 
CONSEIL EXECUTIF
F.B (2004) OS
2 March 2004
Note for the attention of the members of the Executive Board
References concerning "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
and persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language
outside the country
Taking into account Resolution (95) 23 adopted by the Committee of Ministers on 19 October 1995 at the 547th meeting of Ministers' Deputies, the Secretarial is hereby instructed to use the following references provisionally for all purposes within the Council of Europe pending settlement of the difference which has arisen over the name of the State in question. They are to be used in all documents prepared by the Secretariat of the Council of Europe.
The Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights and independent monitoring mechanisms are strongly encouraged to use these references. However, texts emanating or prepared under instructions from the Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights, independent monitoring mechanisms, as well as reports, declarations and other texts attributed to individual Parliamentarians, representatives to the Congress, judges of the Court or members of independent monitoring mechanisms will not have to be changed if they are not in line with the agreed references.
As regards the country
Country:
"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
The inverted commas are an integral pan of the reference. When the term appears within a sentence, the (the) must be written with a small (t)
Adjective/ Nationality:
of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" 
Examples: the government of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", the police of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" citizen of "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
Adjective referring
to culture: Macedonian (Slav)
Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) culture
Language: Macedonian (Slav)
As regards persons belonging to a minority or speaking a minority language outside the country
Persons/group: Macedonian(s) accompanied by a footnote reading �Terminology of self-identification used by the person(s) concerned�
Adjective: Macedonian (Slav)
Examples: Macedonian (Slav) traditions. Macedonian (Slav) associations, Macedonian (Slav) schools
Language: Macedonian (Slav)
Jan Kleijssen, Director of the Secretary General's Private Office -- 10:33, 23 Jun 2005 Theathenae
:You know, I didn't think that Wikipedia was covered by any one of the Council of Europe's "Parliamentary Assembly, the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights and independent monitoring mechanisms". What international bodies call states is a matter for those international bodies. It doesn't constrain what we call states, particularly if political usage conflicts with common usage. Otherwise we wouldn't have an article on the Republic of China, for instance (the RoC is unrecognised by most of the world). -- ChrisO 10:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I posted the resolution merely to refute FlavrSavr's false assertion that the name of people X is not a matter of international dispute, as the UN recognises people X as "Macedonians". In fact, the only international organisation with an official and articulated policy regarding the issue is the Council of Europe.--Theathenae 10:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Again, you distort the facts. The resolution clearly states that the decision is binding only on the Secretariat, not the other CoE bodies (such as the ECRI which you cite), for which it is merely a recommendation. Your campaign appears to have failed miserably, as the country is still referred to everywhere on the main CoE website as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", and your assertion that the resolution was withdrawn is refuted by the fact that its main provision is still studiously enforced, inverted commas and all.--Theathenae 11:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Council of Europe resolution 

message: On more than a one occasions I've been to UN meetings and have had discusions about how does this FYROM/RoM business work. I know that this is only marginally relevant to this article, but it is an illustration about how far away from everyday realities the anti-Macedonian position is here.
In the UN this the usual state of affairs:
RoM delegations get to call it and themselves what they like AND everybody at the meeting is obliged to respond to them. Meaning, if a RoM delegate makes a statement "The Gov't of the RoM is of the opinion etc..." that statement is accepted as any other official statement from anyone else. No one, niether UN beurocrat nor country delegate, not event he Greek delegation, can explain failure to act or respond on the basis of "I don't know who this delegation represents" or "who was that?".
The catch is that RoM must respond if anyone from the UN or other member country delegations requests: "Can we have a comment/report from FYROM" - then their delegate must respond or take note and cannot ignore or use this as an excuse to ignore, in the sense of "that's not us, why bother?".
In practice the second applies only when there is a Greek dlegate or official in the room because, even though non-Greek delegates are mostly not concerned in the least, if anyone starts RoM-ing or Macedonian-ing the RoM delegates, the Greek delegations are obliged by automatism in the form of a prescription from the Greek Foreign Office to react with a usual statement which they keep in their pocket and heartlessly file with the particular meeting's secretary, often much to their own embarassment. 
When there is no Greek at a UN meeting, the RoM delegation is habitually reffered to as RoM, "Macedonian delegation" and Macedonians.
I urge any Macedonian and Greek to when in NY visit the UN and attend a meeting - many of them are public. Maybe they get lucky to see one where there will be some delegates from one or both countries and see this practical compormise in action. Its almost cute, especially when the meeting brakes and they go altogether for a kafedaki!
If the wiki Greeks think this is impossible or outrageous - think twice: no UN decision can be above and higher than the UN charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which describe the rights related to self-determination and nationhood. The decision is just a temporary patch up about a technical naming convention: it is not a statement of politcal thought or siding in the international fora from a daily perspective. Of course, its very political in the country capitals - this I do not deny.
I hope the wiki Greeks don't come flaming at this, I understand it may go against their principled understanding of politics - but real life in the international political insitutions is much softer and measured than some of then seem to appreciate, or that is evident by some of the official statements or decisions.
Peace&love --Modi 20:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That really brought a tear to my eye, Modi. It's also cute when I affectionately call my X friends Macadamia nuts and they call me a Turk - despite the Greeks having thrown off the Turkish yoke a century earlier. Greeks are well aware that the world doesn't know or care enough about the issue to refrain from calling the FYROM "Macedonia" or people X "Macedonians", but that does not mean they cannot or should not express their legitimate grievances, or, as you suggest, that they are "heartless" or "embarassed" to do so. We live in the real world and not everyone has to agree with you.--Theathenae 09:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UN practice 

message: What about the current Macedonians article?
Is this voting an attempt to justify the vandalizing of Macedonians?
If the wiki about Macedonian Slavs replace the wiki about Macedonians would this be like vandalizing the original wiki, or not?
MATIA 11:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macedonians wiki