Talk:Afrocentrism/Archive 1

message: should we include eurocentrism vs afrocentrism in the first section? I think El C's version is pretty npov and does not go into semantics and wordplay, which is very clean and helpful. In addition, quoting Ivan van Sertima seems to be pushing the Afrocentrist POV even more. If I remember correctly, this is the guy who wrote a book on the purported African visits of the Americas, way before the Vikings and Columbus. Is mentioning this guy in this section NPOV at all? I think it's okay to say that Afrocentrism is 1). worldview focusing on Africa and/or 2). pseudo-history focusing on Africa. No need to get into arguing about semantics, subjectivity objectivity schlobjectivity and more POVs. Wareware 10:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We can mention him, of course, but we'll need to qualify how his theories are being percieved by his peers. El_C 10:52, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That section is problematic, though. We should iron it here in talk. I am restoring my version, for now. El_C 10:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Before we do that, perhaps it would be best to go over some of the basics. I am feeling somewhat disoriented with this topic due to lack of familiarity with it. I posed a few questions in the first section of this talk page. Any help in answering these will be appreciated. El_C 11:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  more POV from Afrocentrism vs. Eurocentrism 

message: Passage reads:
An obvious example of European appropriation of black African culture is the common classification of obelisks, porticoes and columns as "Greek" architecture when, they are clearly Egyptian in origin. In fact, fluted columns are key architectural elements of the Step Pyramid at Sakkara, built approximately 2,400 years before the Greek conquest of Egypt.
:: To my knowledge no-one has ever said that obelisks are Greek. They are Egyptian. No one claims that 'columns' are Greek either. But they aren't Egyptian either. They can be found all over the world, as can porticos. The classical orders of columns are Greek (Doric, Ionic, Corinthian) in origin, as is the classical form of the portico. Paul B 05:32, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Corinthian" (the name given to the style is itself evidence of appropriation)" What are you on about? Corinth is a town in Greece. This column style did not originate in Egypt. Paul B 05:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Well I haven't studied architecture nor have I ever taken a "world history course in the West," none are key to my field as a 20th Century historian anyway. But, all of that is an aside to my question about the prevailing thoughts in the critical scholarship as to whether it is widely thought to constitute such an appropriation (again, I don't know), but if it is proven to be the case, I still challenge that this should go in the historical Afrocentric section rather than the criticism one. El_C 14:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I see you have trawled the web and come up with quotations, including one written in the 1890s, some webpages, and the statement that Greeks took the column from the Egyptians and that they borrowed some ornamental material from 'Eastern' sources. I guess that means Persia or Mesopotamia, but is unlikely to mean Egypt. Well the fact is that you have provided no evidence to support your assertion that anyone ever claimed obelisks to be Greek in origin or your assertion that the Corinthian column (because of its name!) is derived from Egypt. What you do show is what no-one has ever denied: that Egyptian columns predate Greek ones. Whether the style of Greek columns was derived from Egyptian ones is still a matter of debate. That columns - like pyramids - developed independently elewhere in the world is not. Classical Greek art and architecture has traditionally beeen thought to represent a model of aesthetic perfection, one to be imitated by later cultures. That is a judgement of taste. It is not affected by how these designs came into being or by the fact that they were influenced, at earlier stages of their development, by other cultures. However, as a judgement of taste it does affect the perception of non-Greek architecture. That includes other European styles ('barbaric' Viking, or Gothic designs for example) as well as non-European styles. I feel that you are so fixated by the Africa/Europe opposition that you seem to miss other vast areas of culture and of designs in Europe itself, and in Asia, that have been considered inferior to Greek art. By creating a Manichean Europe/Africa opposition I think you simplify history to the point of confusion. Paul B 16.46 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Before I adress you comments I would like to make certain thing perfectly clear. You must —stop— from continuing to make exclalmations such as For those in denial or otherwise challenged and many others. I have already asked you to cease from these, and it is not fair that I would have to reiterate that a second time (!) It is tautological and mildly insulting. No, I don't little about any of these things – this is the point though, you should expect the reader to be unfamilliar with it, too (that's the point of an encyclopedia). I have not read Lefkowitz (my accoutn of her is based on book reviews, etc. from reputable sources), I am not familliar with any of the scholars cited above, but it is important that we understand how their theories are generally viewed by academia as a whole, again, regadless what we oursleves think of academia. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: European appropriation of black culture

message: I wish to recapsulate much of what I said above eversince I've been made aware of some of the problematic components this article exhibits. One issue that I find reoccures and needs to be better addressed systemically, is that the reader is often faced with claims made by Afrocentric scholars, but these are not consistently enough offset by what a consensus of (if such exists, if not we qualify that) and how critical scholars respond to these. We already established that Afrocentric theories are, in that sense, 'disputed,' so we do need to know how each specific claim —not each-and-every one necessarily, but as a general rule— is countered (or if a claim isn't countered, we qualify it as such; again, as a rule, we can allow for exceptions), otherwise our claim for NPOV becomes tenuous. I am confident that by following these steps we can arrive at an article that is accepted by all parties as NPOV. Thanks. El_C 11:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reoccuring issue

message: The argument against presenting both sides, both views of Afrocentrism is simply bull.  They are competing concepts, and each deserves to be heard.  I insist on balance in this piece!  The pro and con is reinstated. deeceevoice 11:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please refrain from heated exclamations that go towards hindering a collegial editorial collaboration. Are you maintaining that the manner in which the critical scholarship regards historical Afrocentrism is Eurocentrism? Because I don't think that can be passed for encyclopedic. We need to explain how Afrocentrics outline their theories, yes, but this needs to be placed within the context of how the critical scholarship views historical Afrocentrism. We need to have the current social-scientific consensus as a basis, regardless of whether we agree. We cannot, therefore, indirectly obfuscate the fact that Afrocentrism has –vastly– more critics than adherents. The article needs to reflect that more than simply in passing (as was the case prior to today's edits). El_C 12:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: That dosen't aswer the question, but it does add emotional intensity that is both uneccessary and a hindrence towards an NPOV solution. I, myself, don't know about who these scholars cited above are (again, nor will the average reader), or their respective skin shades. I am only concerned at this point with how the critical scholarship tends to view the claims made by Afrocentric scholars, the specific arguments. Again, you must (must) aim at more emotionally detached explanations. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Afrocentrism vs. Eurocentrism

message: I changed the organization of the article, including removing "radical Afrocentrism" altogether and trying to incorporate that into criticism/rebuttal sections toward the end of the article. I also added a section on specific areas of disagreement in the historical record between Afrocentrists and traditional historians. I'm sure you all will find things that need to be corrected or reverted, but I think most of what I did is sound.
I also tried to get rid of what seemed to be to a "hot" tone in much of the article, some of it needlessly denigrating Afrocentrists and some of it needlessly denigrating those scholars who have disagreed with Afrocentric scholarship. No matter how hot-under-the-collar some participants in the historical debate may get, and no matter what sinister motives they may attribute to those with whom they disagree, we really should just ignore the overwrought emotions that some of the participants may have and concentrate on figuring out what the scholarly consensus is. Babajobu 20:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, based on a very cursory glance, your revisions do not appear to sufficiently highlight how the ideas and claims made by Afrocentric shcolars are generally viewed in the critical scholarship. Without establishing this, the article cannot be NPOV. Perhaps I should forward this dispute to other channels: I really don't know enough about it and I think we can benefit from the paricipation of additonal editors who possess some familiarity with the subject. El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine...I'd be interested in getting an assessment on the scholarly consensus here. I certainly am not the one to offer it. However, my understanding is that the predominance of Afrocentric scholarship is not devoted to advancing crackpot claims of the cognitive advantages of people possessing more Melanin, or whatever. I think that's only the fringe of Afrocentric scholarship. I think it would be a shame to have a Wikipedia article on "Afrocentrism" that attacked a strawman caricature of that term. Efforts to fill lacunae in the historical record by restoring the African component of human history to a more approporiate level...I think that also is classified as "Afrocentrism." Because we are talking about a historical profession that for centuries almost exclusively comprised white men. The fact that they produced work that disproportionately emphasized the contributions of white men like themselves doesn't mean they were bad people, it means they were human and typical of historians in most parts of the world. Do you think the historians of Ming China put Africans or Europeans at the heart of their histories? Of course not. They put Chinese men there. But it's a new world now, and we need to produce a universal human history, and I think Afrocentric historical work is part of that. Anyway, if we can get more informed opinion, I'm all for it. Babajobu 22:26, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: I am not making –nor have I ever made– any moral value judgmants here. Sure, everyone is for an objective account of (world and otherwise) history. I submitted a content dispute RfC which reads: Need help in establishing how the critical scholarship tends to view claims made by Afrocentric scholars. Few participants are familliar with this topic, except for one editor who is markedly on the Afrocentric side. I believe it is a fair enough assessment that all parties can agree to. Again, I have no strong opinion either way, I am simply unfamilliar with the subject, but it should be evident, I think, that this issue especially is key one, and that it remains outstanding. El_C 22:36, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree with you. The RfC's a good idea. I wasn't trying to say that you had done anything wrong, I was just giving my own rationale for the edits I made. Babajobu 22:42, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, obviously I have a problem with the underrepresentation of Africa in academia – it is a very real (and acute) problem of which I am all too aware (though in other, and I argue more pressing ways, than ancient history), first hand. I would not have authored the Great empires and their impact section otherwise (which is largely outside of my expertise, too, though not so much as ancient history). But, again, I cannot make out how social-scientific consensus  regards Afrocentric ancient historical claims. We could certainly use all the help we can get on this front. El_C 23:46, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: while not deleting anything, I restord several important items regarding Afrocentrism. This is because, by and large, Afrocentrism is generally not taken seriously as a scholarly endeavor. Sure, some are concerned with "paradigm shift," but the majority cast doubt on their method of inquiry and the conclusions they arrive at. These criticisms need to be there to reflect that. Also, I deleted the various "Dr." titles from Afrocentrists, as they are extraneous. You don't see that List of historians for example, so why add the titles here? Is this an attempt to make them seem more credible?  Wareware 04:20, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Big Changes

message: Deeceevoice, I implore you to take a chill pill. I haven't been around Wikipedia very long, and its protocol is just as unnatural to me as it also still seems to be to you. I'm contrary and argumentative by nature, and never happier than when casting aspersions at the motivation and character of people who disagree with me. But unfortunately for both of us that is not how encyclopedias are made. If you keep up the dinner-table ranting and mocking of your collaborators on this article, the talkpage will be more fun to read, but the Afrocentrism article will be a piece of crap. So please, in the interests of bringing a knowledge of Afrocentrism to the benighted masses who have so little appreciation of Afrocentric contributions, take that chill pill.   Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Wikipedia:Ownership of articles, Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:Writers rules of engagement, Wikipedia:Profanity, Wikipedia:Wikiquette, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view  Babajobu 11:43, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Importance of Taking a Chill Pill

message: Is the omission of Ethiopia from the lists of Arican polities at the beginning of this article an oversight? Or are there reasons why this nation & its history is not included as one of the subjects studied? -- llywrch 18:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  If Ethiopia is a topic studied by Afrocentrists, then put it in, Llywrch. -- Babajobu 19:25, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly don't know whether it is or not; it would be strange if it wasn't. That's why I asked. -- llywrch 22:41, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, either, Llywrch. But I agree with you that it seems like it would be. Babajobu 08:43, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethiopia 

message: Hopefuly the following list of works will get us one step closer towards getting an historiographically balanced article with respects to Afroecentric scholarship; and hopefuly these will also prove useful to address the two opposite concerns — the argument against Afrocentric scholarship's vilification posed by DC, and the argument against its overrepresentation as and/or vs. scholarly consensus, as posed by WW. [I am not familliar with the contents of any of these. List's order is random as per the search querry - sadly, few were linkable at the source]:
* Molefi Kete Asante, "In search of an Afrocentric historiography," Congress International d'estudis Africans, Barcelona, Jan 12-15, 2004. PDF
* Walker, Clarence E. We Can't Go Home Again: An Argument about Afrocentrism(Oxford University Press, 2000)
*  Marry R. Lefkowitz, "Teaching Ancient History Through Controversy," The Occasional Papers of the American Philological Association's Committee on Ancient History 1 (2002) 14–26 PDF 
* W. C. Banks. "The theoretical and methodological crisis of Afrocentric conception," Journal of Negro Education, 61 (3), 1992, 262-272. 
* Kwame Appiah, "Europe Upside Down: Fallacies of the New Afrocentrism," repreinted in Times Literary Supplement, 1993.  
* Collins, P. H. Black feminist thought: Knowledge, consciousness and the politics of empowerment. (Unwin Hyman, Boston, 1990) 
* Molefi Kete Asante, The Afrocentric Idea Revised and Expanded Edition overview
* J. S. D. Dei, "Knowledge and politics of social change: the implication of anti-racism." British Journal of Sociology of Education, 20 (3), 395-409.
* Giddings, G. J., "Infusion of Afrocentric content into the school curriculum," Journal of Black Studies, 31 (4), 2001, 462-482.
* C. D. Lee, K. Lomotey and M. Shujaa, "How shall we sing our sacred song in a strange land? The dilemma of double consciousness and the complexities of an african-centred pedagogy." Journal of Education, 172 (2), 2001, 45-60.  
* Asante, M. K. Afrocentricity: The theory of social change. (Amulefi, NY, 1980).
* Milam, J. H. The emerging paradigm of Afrocentric research methods. (Association for the Study of Higher Education, 1992). 
* Ruth Reviere Rethinking Open and distance Education Practices: Barriers to Learning PDF
* Nobles, W. W. African psychology: Toward its reclamation, reascension and revitalization. (Institute for the Advanced Study of Black Family Life and Culture, Oakland, CA, 1986).
* E. Oliver, "An Afrocentric approach to literature: Putting the pieces back together," English Journal, 77 (5), 1988, 49-53.
 
* Ruth Reviere, "Towards an Afrocentric research methodology." Journal of Black Studies, 31 (6), 2001, 709-728.   
* Myers, Linda James. Understanding an Afrocentric world view : introduction to an optimal psychology (Kendall/Hunt Pub. Co., 1993)
 
* Richard M. Huber, "Contending Viewpoints: Rethinking American Cultural Studies," Journal of American & Comparative Cultures, Vol. 24 Isssue 3-4, 2001, 37-
* Asante, Molefi K. Afrocentricity (Africa World Press, 1988)
* Mills, Charles W. Blackness visible : essays on philosophy and race (Cornell University Press, 1998).
El_C 06:40, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm reading Not out of Africa by Mary Leftkowitz and Afrocentrism by Stephen Howe right now. Leftkowitz's book is relatively narrow as it mainly focuses on debunking various claims of Afrocentrism, namely, how the greeks stole their knowledge from the mythicl egypt. Howe's book is more encompassing as it describes the origin, pscyhology, profiles on almost every afrocentrist, and why it persists. Both books don't really shine well on afrocentric scholarship.  Wareware 07:28, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, though, Wareware, they are both notable critics of Afrocentric scholarship. Do you plan to read any of the works by the more notable Afrocentric scholars, such as Asante though? Don't you have mid-terms to attend to, anyway? ;) El_C 07:45, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: my midterms are done this week thx for asking:) But I still got lots to do but I'll try to contribute. I don't think I'm going to devote my time reading pro-afrocentric works, especially by Asante. I'll read about his positions and reasoning from criticial sources. I can't really trust Asante because he wrote that Aristotle studied at the Library of Alexandria and appropriated egyptian philosophy, while in reality the library was built after both Alexander's and Aristotle's death. Mary Leftkowitz challenged him in this point during a seminar at Wellsely and Asante refused to cite his sources or how he arrived at this conclusion and instead accused her of racist motives. That alone pretty much persuaded me not to read any afrocentric work. But the book by Howe is pretty valuable in that it presents the origin and reasoning, not just point-by-point refutation, so I'll read that and find something.  Wareware 09:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: It's already a given that Afrocentric scholars are scholars. Whether they are radical –in the positive or negative sense of the word– is not relevanet to the fact that they write scholarly works, publish articles in academic journals, hold professorial positions and instruct students; none of these things are being –nor had they come under– dispute here. El_C 10:58, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, not merely among scholars, but what is generally considered to be the –consensus– among them regarding Afrocentric scholarship (or notable currents therein). That is what I asked for, repeatedly. Regardless how well-respected they might be within academia, their views may still be marganalized within the mainstream scholarship, and in that case, the article needs to reflect that. I will get this point across even if ... I will get this point across. El_C 10:57, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: racist, white supremacist assumptions regarding the contributions of nonwhite peoples to world history. What's this, a strawman attack that makes all Western research "white supremacist"? You gotta be kidding me. Renaissance, the Enlightenment, nationalism and related ideas and philosophies are western ideas, so what's so "white supremacist" about it. I don't think any Chinese person that I've talked to regard history as white supremacist or Eurocentric at best. Saying so is rather vitriolic.  Wareware 03:03, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Afrocentric shcolarship: let's try this again

message: Why is the bibliography in a smaller font than the rest of the piece?  (Am I suddenly in need of bifocals?)  Is this Wiki style? deeceevoice 06:00, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Many things; appearence; possibly; sure. El_C 07:43, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: The Wiki is loose, so these sort of modifications are considered to be within the realm of editorial discretion (rather than a binding manual of style formula). I find using footnote-sized font for the references to be of some minor cosmetic benefit when these are lengthy reference lists, which tends to be the case for articles I am involved in. Since I was the one who created the references section and added all the scholarly works into it (i.e. with normal fonts it was disporportionately lengthy versus the body of the article), it reflects my preference on this front. El_C 10:45, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What's with the teeny, weeny print?

message: Areas of study by Afrocentrists
Afrocentric history traces and emphasizes important contributions of blacks, beginning with the high civilizations of Africa, particularly Egypt and Kush. It also focuses on black, or Tamil, southern India before the Persian incursions, as well as on the black African participation in the Moorish domination of the Iberian peninsula during the Middle Ages— and, among others, on the sizable empires of Ghana, Mali, and Songhai.
The introductory definition mentions "black contributions."  Listing these specific areas of interest, I think, gives the wrong impression; it is too limiting.  There are Afrocentric scholars (in terms of the lens through which they interpret history) who focus on black contributions throughout history and across the globe -- and in the modern era, as well.  I think it's best to simply leave this out.  If there is a desire to mention these areas of focus (and I can see that it could be useful to do so), it should be included in the article in another fashion -- one that won't give the false impression that these are the only areas of study, or even the primary, areas of study/expertise of Afrocentric historians.  That is simply not the case.  deeceevoice 08:24, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no objections to that change as such, but that section should exist with a more pertinent account regarding areas of studies (at least some of the more notable current therein – déjà vu).  El_C 11:06, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted

message: This article has been made infinitely better since the last time I dropped in. Well done. You better throw up a wall and dig a moat, Deeceevoice must be raising an army. Babajobu 11:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hear, hear! Well done! El_C 07:05, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nice Work