Talk:Mind control/Archive 1

message: Is Brainwashing coerced Neuro-Linguistic Programming?
§ Has anybody actually read the Lifton book and the Schein book?  I studied these books intensely as an undergraduate and, while I would have to dig them out of my library to sharpen up my memory, the article we have at present seems to me to be a total misrepresentation of their findings. At a time when lots of brainwashing appears to be going on, it is especially important that people understand both the motivations and the methodologies used by the CCP and others. P0M 01:51, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: § For what it's worth, my understanding of the Lifton and Schein books was checked in 1960 by Professor James T.C. Liu, a gentleman who spent most of his teaching career at Princeton and who had also served as part of the legal team involved in the post WW II war trials carried out in the Pacific theatre. 
§ I might add that I know very well four of the Americans who were subjected to long prison terms and to what the Chinese would prefer to call "si xiang gai zao" (remodeling of thought).  Nothing I ever learned from them either formally (two were professors of mine) or informally (all were people whom I consider very good friends of mine) suggested to me that either Lifton or Schein had been smoking strange botanical preparations. The American prisoners Lifton and Schein studied had been  subjected to the most highly manipulative of techniques, techniques that were directed against them across the entire range of experience.
§ If you want to get the straight, first-person dope on what brainwashing was (and is), read Father John Clifford's In the Presence of My Enemies.  He was trained as a Jesuit priest and also as a sociologist, and he was the only "enemy of the state" subjected to the full force of the CCP prison indoctrination/thought-control system who did not succumb to it. Fortunately, as Lifton pointed out, people generally began to regain their reality testing facility as soon as they were released to embassy officials, family, and friends in Hong Kong. 
§ The use of brainwashing in Korea was primarily for the purpose of making it impossible for Allied forces who were prisoners of war to mount any effective escape attempts. It was worth the effort to brainwash soldiers to the extent that they could be controlled by a small fraction of the number of armed guards that would be required in most POW situations. That freed soldiers for front-line duty who otherwise would have had to have been employed as prison guards.
Again I must stress that the article as currently written is in stark contrast to the writings of Lifton, Schein, Allyn and Adelle Rickett (Prisoners of the Liberation), and Father John Clifford. P0M 02:11, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

message: Intro. Brainwashing or Coercive Persuasion and the related "great psychological insight[s] into means of manipulating and controlling men's minds" (Schein, 48).
:A. Derivation of the term. There were two terms coined by the CCP, one informal and evocative (xi nao, lit. "wash brain") and one more formal and professional-sounding (sixiang gaizao, lit. "thought remodelling"). The term "brain washing" derives from the first of these two, and came into wide currency during the Korean War when many American and other United Nations troops began to make and broadcast confessions of a sort that such troops had not made in previous wars. 
I. Previous similar attempts to influence thinking and beliefs
:A. Inquisition
:B. Soviet mind control and show trials
::1. Confessions of Cardinal Mindszenty, 
::2. William Otis, 
::3. Robert Vogeler, et al.
II. Initial Awareness of the phenomenon
:A. Brainwashing in Red China, Edward Hunter, 1951
:B. Korean war: extensive collaboration including propaganda broadcasts made by U.S. prisoners of the North Koreans and/or the Peoples Republic of China.
:C. Reports came out of PRC regarding coercive measures taken to secure acquiescence among "5 black classes" in mainland China.
:D. Observations of soldiers held in prison camps during the Korean war showed that "the much-feared Communist program of brainwashing was really more of an intensive indoctrination program in combination with very sophisticated techniques of undermining the social structure of the prisoner group, thereby eliciting collaboration which in most cases was not based on ideological change of any sort." (Shein, 8)
:E. Observation of people who had been imprisoned for long terms and later were released to Hong Kong for repatriation or immigration to the U.S. showed that there were much more severe discrepancies between their reported beliefs at that time and what reality testing would later show them. (Shein, 8f.)
III. Components of the phenomenon
:A. Political, social, and cultural factors constituting the active context in which the phenomenon occurs.
:B. Institutional devices used to elicit the phenomenon, e.g., prisons, struggle groups, therapeutic communities, etc.
:C. Agents of change in the process, e.g., prison guards, therapists, encounter group leaders, etc.
:D. Target population, i.e., what individuals are selected as targets for the special efforts directed toward change.
:E. Characteristics of the interactions between agents of change and members of the target population.  (Are there institutional restrictions on what members of one and/or the other group can do to their counterparts?)
::1. Step by step goals as set by the institution:
:::a. Sever contact with the outside world.
:::b. Destroy feelings of self worth. (This state became a general and stated psychological norm of mainland Chinese society. See self image, ziwo yixiang)
:::c. Tear down psychic integrity.
:::d. Rebuild a new psyche from the foundational, irreducible, components of human mentation.
:::e. Protect the new equilibrium from outside intrusion.
:::f. Prevent subjects from engaging in effective reality testing.
::2. Change modalities
:::a. Remove all elements supportive of self respect, e.g., remove clothing, shave head, prevent adequate bathing, etc.
:::b. Sustain sleep deprivation at sub-lethal level.
:::c. Restrict information to those assertions that support the view of reality that the authorities desire to promote.
:::d. Eliminate alternative interpretations of any and all events.
:::d. Force prisoner to confess, but do not tell prisoner what to confess to. Tell the prisoner that he/she must be guilty because he/she is in prison, so he/she ought to confess to all crimes. Do not accept confessions that are obviously false. Persist in demanding confessions. Stop when a version of the truth that is in agreement with party ideology is stated as the prisoner's confession. 
:::e. Emphasis on reform, even in cases (spying, etc.) where another system, e.g., that of the U.S. A. or U.S.S.R., might favor a death sentence.
:::f. Emphasis on conformity of all members of society, including the newly processed prisoner, with the views espoused by the central government.
::F. Thought reform (sixiang gaizao) "was a manifestation of a wide program of social and psychological control which permeated all segments of Chinese society in the 1950s." (Schein, 60)
IV. Characteristics of the inner events that occur along the pathway to final transformation of a member of the target population. Peeling away to core survival functions and building "a new human" on that basis.
::A. Fear
::B. Shame
::C. Disorientation
::D. Loss of self respect, feeling that "one is a human being"
::E. Fatigue and inability to control oneself as only the most basic of life-sustaining behaviors survive the onslaught.
::F. Reintegration of functions after "breakthrough" confession was made - maintaining integrity of functions, ability to control oneself as a human being, was perceived as being contingent on maintaining the foundational confession.
::G. Resolution of threats to one's family and loved ones by conformity to government expectations - even if it meant divorce or other such separation from loved ones.
V. Related Phenomena:
::A. Reform through labor,xia fang, etc.
::B. Prison colonies (Gulag, Qinghai Province prisons, etc.)
::C. The collectivized human being.
::D. Da Wenhua Geming (the Great Cultural Revolution)
: Intro. Brainwashing or Coercive Persuasion and the related "great psychological insight[s] into means of manipulating and controlling men's minds" (Schein, 48).
I. Previous similar attempts to influence thinking and beliefs
:A. Inquisition
:B. Soviet mind control and show trials
::1Confessions of Cardinal Mindszenty, William Otis, Robert Vogeler, et al.
II. Initial Awareness of the phenomenon
:A. Brainwashing in Red China, Edward Hunter, 1951
:B. Korean war: extensive collaboration including propaganda broadcasts made by U.S. prisoners of the North Koreans/Peoples Republic of China.
:C. Reports came out of PRC regarding coercive measures taken to secure acquiescence among "5 black classes" in mainland China.
:D. Observations of soldiers held in prison camps during the Korean war showed that "the much-feared Communist program of brainwashing was really more of an intensive indoctrination program in combination with very sophisticated techniques of undermining the social structure of the prisoner group, thereby eliciting collaboration which in most cases was not based on ideological change of any sort." (Shein, 8)
:E. Observation of people who had been imprisoned for long terms and later were released to Hong Kong for repatriation or immigration to the U.S. showed that there were much more severe discrepancies between their reported beliefs at that time and what reality testing would later show them. (Shein, 8f.)
III. Components of the phenomenon
:A. Political, social, and cultural factors constituting the active context in which the phenomenon occurs.
:B. Institutional devices used to elicit the phenomenon, e.g., prisons, struggle groups, therapeutic communities, etc.
:C. Agents of change in the process, e.g., prison guards, therapists, encounter group leaders, etc.
:D. Target population, i.e., what individuals are selected as targets for the special efforts directed toward change.
:E. Characteristics of the interactions between agents of change and members of the target population.  (Are there institutional restrictions on what members of one and/or the other group can do to their counterparts?)
::1. Step by step goals as set by the institution:
:::a. Sever contact with the outside world.
:::b. Destroy feelings of self worth. (This state became a general and stated psychological norm of mainland Chinese society. See self image, ziwo yixiang)
:::c. Tear down psychic integrity.
:::d. Rebuild a new psyche from the foundational, irreducible, components of human mentation.
:::e. Protect the new equilibrium from outside intrusion.
:::f. Prevent subjects from engaging in effective reality testing.
::2. Change modalities
:::a. Remove all elements supportive of self respect, e.g., remove clothing, shave head, prevent adequate bathing, etc.
:::b. Sustain sleep deprivation at sub-lethal level.
:::c. Restrict information to those assertions that support the view of reality that the authorities desire to promote.
:::d. Eliminate alternative interpretations of any and all events.
:::d. Force prisoner to confess, but do not tell prisoner what to confess to. Tell the prisoner that he/she must be guilty because he/she is in prison, so he/she ought to confess to all crimes. Do not accept confessions that are obviously false. Persist in demanding confessions. Stop when a version of the truth that is in agreement with party ideology is stated as the prisoner's confession. 
:::e. Emphasis on reform, even in cases (spying, etc.) where another system, e.g., that of the U.S. A. or U.S.S.R., might favor a death sentence.
:::f. Emphasis on conformity of all members of society, including the newly processed prisoner, with the views espoused by the central government.
::F. Thought reform (sixiang gaizao) "was a manifestation of a wide program of social and psychological control which permeated all segments of Chinese society in the 1950s." (Schein, 60)
IV. Characteristics of the inner events that occur along the pathway to final transformation of a member of the target population. Peeling away to core survival functions and building "a new human" on that basis.
::A. Fear
::B. Shame
::C. Disorientation
::D. Loss of self respect, feeling that "one is a human being"
::E. Fatigue and inability to control oneself as only the most basic of life-sustaining behaviors survive the onslaught.
::F. Reintegration of functions after "breakthrough" confession was made - maintaining integrity of functions, ability to control oneself as a human being, was perceived as being contingent on maintaining the foundational confession.
::G. Resolution of threats to one's family and loved ones by conformity to government expectations - even if it meant divorce or other such separation from loved ones.
V. Related Phenomena:
::A. Reform through labor,xia fang, etc.
::B. Prison colonies (Gulag, Qinghai Province prisons, etc.)
::C. The collectivized human being.
::D. Da Wenhua Geming (the Great Cultural Revolution)
::E. Encounter groups in the U.S., particularly as used by organizations such as Synanon and Gaudenzia. (These organizations use a subset of the full range of brainwashing techniques, and, in general, they use them responsibly.)
Based on information from Edgar H. Schein's Coercive Persuasion.
:E. Encounter groups in the U.S., particularly as used by organizations such as Synanon. Daytop Village, and Gaudenzia. (These organizations use a subset of the full range of brainwashing techniques, and, in general, they use them responsibly.)
Based on information from Edgar H. Schein's Coercive Persuasion. See also the book by Robert Jay Lifton mentioned in the bibliography above, Prisoners of the Liberation by Allyn and Adele Rickett, and In the Presence of My Enemies by John Clifford, S.J., two personal accounts.
::POM hi. I also don't like the article, it smells very strongly of someone trying to persuade me its all a big fab. However, I cannot judge the sketch of the new article you propose. It is too short for someone like me who is not an expert. I need to see a full version. Either change the main page or create a subpage, say Brainwashing/propsal. Gadykozma 00:18, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: O.K., I got a copy of Lifton's book, but I do work for a living, and reading and digesting two books again will take me a little time. The present article looks, to me, like a paraphrase of a certain on-line source. I ordinarily prefer to deal with whatever is already in an article, but in this case I think going back to scholarly sources would be preferable. Rather than write something that I'd have to change once I did all the writing, I thought I'd put up an outline and then try to find time to re-read Lifton and make any needed changes to the outline before writing.  P0M 05:45, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: We all do. I have two kids in addition. Take your time. Gadykozma 10:45, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I borrowed Lifton's book from the library but I have problems too reading it. Andries 09:14, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed outline of new article by PatrickOMoran/POM

message: Mr. 4 numbers, please provide some references to the story about the soviet manual. The very least you should do is to provide links to where the manual can be had, if it really exists on the net. Gadykozma 20:23, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet brainwashing 

message: The biggest difference between military brainwashing and cult brainwashing should be obvious, but it is generally glossed over:
* Military brainwashing is done on prisoners of war: soldiers who were captured by force and prevented by force from escaping
* Cult brainwishing, according to even the most prejudiced anti-cult advocates, does NOT involve capture or incarceration. 
Ironically, it is deprogramming which resembles military brainwashing MORE THAN cult brainwashing. I have access to dozens of sworn statements from Unificationists who were kidnapped by thugs hired by their parents and then held incommunicado in motel rooms or remote rural hideaways. (There was no recourse to a lawyer or a hearing before a judge, beforehand.) --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 14:21, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The biggest difference between military brainwashing and cult brainwashing should be obvious, but it is generally glossed over:
Ed Poor points out one kinds of difference, but it may not be the biggest difference.  Not only are the two kinds of brainwashing different as regards the methodologies of confinement of brainwashees, but the intended product of the brainwashing is also very different.  Military brainwashing per se need only be sufficiently thorough to make the prisoners easy enough to control for the duration of hostilities so as to be more economical than the control that could be secured by prison walls and force of arms alone.  The intended product of cult brainwashing is an individual who has put his body and mind under control of the "great leader", and has done so with no limits as regards time. "I am the slave for life of the great god Hushuo and obey His commands as spoken by his true prophet Fang Pi!"  P0M 06:11, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The cult angle

message: § Having had my attention drawn back to this article, and having gotten disgusted with it again, I have started to correct the most serious distortions. P0M 01:04, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Patrick, such changes should be reverted on sight (which is what I did). If the anon continues to give you trouble, and refuses to cooperate on the talk, report it on Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress. Gadykozma 01:15, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm glad you stepped in. Your doing so makes it seem less like a response of petty pique on my part. Sometimes it seems that articles can only make progress when a sort of posse forms up to revert vandalism. If the article gets protected then nobody can make any progress with it. Thanks.  P0M 01:21, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: While the methods of thought control were extremely powerful, a key element in their success was tight control over the information available to the individual so as to greatly hinder reality testing and bias the subject's total picture of the world, and when this close control of information could no longer be maintained former prisoners fairly quickly regained an objective picture of the world and the societies from which they had come. So the fear of brainwashed sleeper agents, such as was dramatized in The Manchurian Candidate, never materialized
Roadrunner 20:50, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Changes