Talk:Those Were the Days (song)

message: 1.  Why do we say "possibly of Russian origin".  It is definitely of Russian origin.  It is a folk song called Дорогой длинною ("Dorogoi dlinnoyu"), and all Russians older than 45 would know it off by heart.
: After a little digging I find I'm wrong.  But only about it being a folk song.  It's definitely Russian, but the composer is known.  It was written by Boris Fomin (1900-1948) with words by the poet Konstantin Podrevskii.  I'll make the necessary update to the article.  JackofOz 13:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a Russian song - not a Russian folk song.  The English words are a free translation of the original typically Russian melancholic theme.  It has nothing to to with "the passing of the golden folk days of Dylan, Paxton, Ochs, and The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem". Incidentally they weren't "past" - but very current - in 1968!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 09:37, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Two queries

message: Can anyone tell me the movie on which this song was a sidetrack?  It was with a British actress. 
The film was "Innocents in Paris", released in 1953.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.13.18 (talk) 02:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Another query

message: Who decided this song has a "klezmer feel"??  How do they arrive at that?  I've heard a good deal of Klezmer music and this is something that has never occurred to me, ever.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.34.134.114 (talk) 08:27, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If you've heard a good deal of klezmer music and this doesn't sound like klezmer to you and there is no valid objective citation associating the arrangement with klezmer, I think you should feel free to remove the passage in question. I'm reluctant to remove it myself because I have not heard a good deal of klezmer music. TheScotch (talk) 02:30, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Yet Another query

message: Is it just me, or does this song have the same tune as the Jewish children's tune "8 days of Hannukah"?
Cannot verify since I don't own a copy, but Francis Goya may have performed this as 'The Long Road'
Tim 67.104.200.131 (talk) 04:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Other songs with the same tune?

message: :Image:Those Were the Days Sandie.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 18:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Those Were the Days Sandie.jpg

message: :Image:Raskin2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 22:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Raskin2.jpg

message: I made a search for the Clancys, and the only match I got was The Clancy Brothers. Is that the same group? --128.39.12.150 (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Clancys?

message: The song "Superjeilezick" by Brings is similar, but not the same one. I think it should be removed from the list. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9UPasqbtKU  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodeng (talk • contribs) 09:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Brings Superjeilezick?

message: Please note : There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs/coverversions with the purpose of trying to establish a standard rule for merge/separate different versions of the same song. Please make known your opinions on the matter. --Richhoncho (talk) 14:39, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: merge

message: I fail to understand how the song could lament "the passing of the golden folk days of Dylan, Paxton, Ochs ..." if it was performed by the Limeliters several years before those golden folk days ever happened!  The Limeliters first recorded the song in 1962 -- coincidentally, the same year that saw the first albums by both Dylan and Paxton.  (Ochs didn't record his first album for another two years.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.64.101.195 (talk) 04:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What's more, since it was originally written in the 1920s, according to this article, the original author was not likely to have heard of any of them.  It's not lamenting those specific musicians, or musicians at all.  It's about the passing of time and how we deal with aging, in part.  I've tagged that bit with  and will revise the heck out of it in a few days or a week if necessary.  Even if someone manages to come up with a cite that says Raskin was thinking of them, it's he that was thinking of them, not the lyrics he wrote.  Such a cite might be really referring to American Pie, which is closer to that idea from what I'm told by young people who were cognizant at the time of events of the 1950s through 1960s.  But it's not this song.  - Denimadept (talk) 06:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline

message: Violetta Villas died in this year, so please correct the info 194.117.241.30 (talk) 22:12, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Violetta Villas

message: The it.wiki artile on Mary Hopkin suggests that the song was offered to both The Moody Blues and to Donovan, by McCartney, and references Barry Miles' Paul McCartney - Many Years From Now, Rizzoli, Milano 1997, p. 362. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:28, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No Wikipedia article is a valid source for another Wikipedia article (or anything else for that matter). Why would McCartney offer the song to the Moody Blues and Donovan when he knew darn well that those two acts scarcely ever, if at all, recorded material by others? Is there any real evidence that the song was even McCartney's to offer? If it had already been commercially recorded by Gene Raskin, The Moody Blues and Donovan could have legally recorded it any time they liked without McCartney's or anyone else's permission as long as they paid the legal author(s) royalties at the legally set royalty rate. (I just checked: For what it's worth, by the way, the Italian Wikipedia does not say that McCartney "offered" the song to the Moody Blues and Donovan; it says he "suggested" the song to them, a very different--and trivial--thing.)TheScotch (talk)
The Barry Miles book, page 455, says, "He [Mccartney] suggested it ["Those Were the Days"] to the Moody Blues but nothing came of it, and later in India he played it to Donovan, who loved it but didn't get round to recording it." There's a big difference between offered and suggested, and what we're left with is not really worth including, in my opinion. (Bear in mind that the Miles book is mostly based on interviews with McCartney. Maybe McCartney thought Donovan was seriously considering the song, but I myself doubt it. In any case, in the event he didn't touch it, which makes this non-news.) TheScotch (talk) 02:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Moody Blues and Donovan?

message: Re: "Paul McCartney frequented the club and, after the formation of the Beatles' own Apple Records label, recorded the song with Mary Hopkin, McCartney's agent having purchased the song rights from Raskin's."
According to long established American copyright law, when a song is already published or commercially recorded, anyone can re-record it as long as he pays royalties (the royalty rate is set by law). By this standard McCartney wouldn't need to purchase rights to have Hopkin record this song. (I don't know British copyright law, but I would be surprised to find that it differs in this respect very much--Raskin's copyright would, of course, be an American copyright.) Not to put too fine a point on it, this passage sounds very dubious. Without a valid citation I think it should go. I'll wait a while and see if anyone can dig one up. TheScotch (talk) 02:51, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW It's worth there isn't a "second recorded version" provision in UK Law, however in practice it works the same as the US. A search of Ascap shows the publishing rights now being held by Essex Music Inc and none of the Beatle/McCartney material appears to be with Essex. This suggests to me that whatever the conversation (and I lean to there being no conversation) between McCartney & others, he had no financial interest. Unless it can be referenced take it out. --Richhoncho (talk) 03:50, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'm back with the book. On page 455 it says, "Paul [McCartney] wrote to Gene Raskin and sent a tape of the tune  ["Those Were the Days"]. 'I [Mccartney] asked, "Who wrote that?" and he said, "Well, we [Raskin and his wife] did. It's a Russian melody arranged by us and we put the words to it." ' David Platz at Essex Music, the publishers of the song, had no lead sheets or demos but he contacted Raskin, who quickley wrote a lead sheet. Paul and Peter Asher, whose job it was to look after Hopkin, found an arranger and Paul decided to produce the record himself." It certainly appears as if Essex has always had the publishing. I'm changing the article accordingly. TheScotch (talk) 02:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: McCartney purchased rights?

message: Below, apparently, is an English translation of the original Russian lyric. As you can see, Raskin's English lyic is not a translation of the original Russian lyric:
As sung by A.Vertinskiy:
(We) Used to ride in a three-horse carriage with bells (tinkling)/And lights were blinking in the distance/I wish I could go with you (again), falcons/To clear my soul off all my grief
(Going down) that long road on a moonlight night with that song that is flying away, ringing/And with that old seven-string one (guitar)/That troubled me so much at nights
Living such life without joy and torture,/I recollect the years that passed by/And your silver hands in that three-horse carriage which went away for good...
Refrain: (same as above)
Days are passing by, multiplying my sorrows,/It's so hard for me to forget the past/And one day the day will come, my dear,/When you are going to bury me...
Refrain: (as above)
:An abstract of this information should be included in the text of the article. As written now, it's unclear whether the English and Russian versions are completely different (they're not; they share a general theme) or just a little different (also not quite true; the images are very dissimilar). The existing text suggests the two lyrics are entirely different (i.e., "not a translation"), and then offers a thematic summary that suggests they're largely the same. That confusion brought me here, and it's reasonable to assume other readers will have the same issue. 
:I won't make the change myself because my Russian is too weak to verify the accuracy of translations, but it would be great if someone better qualified than I would add a line or two of precisions on the actual difference between Raskin's version and the original. Laodah 00:27, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Original lyric

message: The "Gene Raskin" entry by one Jason Ankeny at AllMusic says this: "During the early '60s Raskin and his wife played Greenwich Village folk clubs under the name Gene & Francesca, releasing an eponymous LP on Tetragrammaton in 1962; the album included 'Those Were the Days,' a tune of either Russian or Ukrainian origins traditionally known as 'Dorogoj Dlinnoyu' and dating back to the turn of the 20th century."
This http://bsnpubs.com/la/tetragrammaton/tetragrammaton.html Internet article, however, says that "Tetragrammaton was founded in 1968". If that is so, AllMusic must be wrong; the album Gene & Francesca could not have been released on that label in 1962. Discogs http://www.discogs.com/Gene-And-Francesca-Gene-And-Francesca/release/3985553 has the Gene & Francesca album being released in "the late 1950s" on Electra and not including "Those Were the Days". On the other hand, it shows http://www.discogs.com/Gene-And-Francesca-Hello-Love/release/4088648 a Gene & Francesca album called Hello Love being released on Tetragrammaton in 1969 and including "Those Were the Days". None of these sources seem to me anywhere near unimpeachable, but I think the Wikipedia article really needs to specify when, on what label, and under what name Gene and Francesca recorded and released "Those Were the Days". Based on what I've seen so far, Discogs seems most likely to have the story straight. I'm going to put its information in the Wikipedia article and hope that eventually we can get either stronger verification or a strong refutation. TheScotch (talk) 07:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Gene and Francesca recording of "Those Were the Days"

message: I think there is too much about the song's history in the opening section - that should become a separate subheading. -- Beardo (talk) 00:13, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Have added one. Is that batter? Martinevans123 (talk) 00:18, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Article structure

message: I found several sources maintaining the song was featured in this adaptation of the Dostoevsky novel, and, too hastily it seems, added this information to the Wikipedia article. I just watched the entire movie and never came upon the song, so I'm removing the information for now. It could be the sources are confusing the song with another very Russian, minor-key song that is played and sung several times in the film, but Maria Schell never sings that one either; she only dances to it at one point. It could be, on the other hand, that the "The Long Road" somehow got edited out of the version of the film I saw (a "TV rip" on Youtube), but the former explanation seems more likely to me. TheScotch (talk) 06:56, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: The Brothers Karamazov 1958 movie

message: The current first entry in the "Recordings" section of this article says that Theodore Bikel recorded the original Russian version of this song in 1959, and there's a citation listing a large selection of the Electra records catalog, roughly in chronological order. I find two Theodore Bikel records there from 1959, More Jewish Folk Songs and Bravo Bikel!. The track listings for neither include a song called "Dorogoi dlinnoyu". TheScotch (talk) 08:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the whole "recordings" section bloated and providing little or no encyclopedic information. A couple of days ago I did start to trim but decided you or somebody else working on the article would do it in due course. I did intend to keep the Bikel entry, but can't verify it's authenticity. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 11:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I sometimes think WP:SONGCOVER is overly restrictive. We seem to be sacrificing encyclopaedic coverage for what looks like a neat article on "a topic". If items can be supported by good sources, I don't see why all major covers could be "discussed" and more minor covers simply listed in a drop-down list. It's often a a bit of a grey area as to which covers are "more notable". But I guess the counter-argument is that there are plenty of other websites which list every cover. It's a bit of a recipe for controversy (e.g. like over at Money (That's What I Want), etc. etc.?) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:00, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: If you view WP as nothing more than a list of songs and who played them, then I would have to agree with you. BUT... WP is not a discography- there are other sites that do that far better than WP can or should, This song is notable because of Mary Hopkin, Gene Raskin and perhaps one or two other people, not every act that thought it could be played live or be an album filler, or should be added to an album because it will make more money - there should be a reason to add a cover version and not just a link to second hand songs and/or allmusic. Let's take one entry in this list - 1995 Cynthia Lennon. Now I challenge you to find one reason, without transgressing WP:NOTINHERITED as to why that entry should be in the article. --Richhoncho (talk) 13:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to make it clear that I don't think WP is that. I just don't see why it could not do both things. People say discogs "can't be trusted", as it's free to edit. At least in a WP, there'd be a chance that sources had been checked. Here's a little song I inherited from YouTube (38,833 hits!!) Martinevans123 (talk) 14:15, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: So an unauthorised posting to YouTube with 38,833 views makes it notable (That link actually says 1421 views, but there are other unauthorised postings...). Even then there is also a picture of John WP:NOTINHERITED? So tell me about the importance the Cynthia Lennon recording had on culture, the charts, perhaps there was something that musicologists discussed about her particular recording? No it is totally insignificant and without merit and not worth mentioning. --Richhoncho (talk) 14:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Great to see you've retained a sense of humour amidst all this argument (?) I claim nothing. Cynthia's version sounds fine to me. And of course it's made all the more poignant by the multiple WP:NOTINHERITED pictures of John. Those stuffy "musicologists" are just missing out, aren't they. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:59, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Theodore Bikel?

message: The article says "McCartney also recorded Hopkin singing "Those Were The Days" in five other languages for release in their respective countries;" (that's a semi colon) Previously we had six versions listed, including versions for Afghanistan and Iran (with other artists specified - the Iranian one is notable). I suspect these last two were added on as "other language versions", but have nothing to do with Hopkin. I could understand McCartny recording other Western European language versions with Hopkin, but not Afghan or Iranian. I see this seems to be all unsourced at the moment. So maybe a good source would sort this out. I winder if discogs might clarify (although we can't use it as a source). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:13, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: p.s. I see from the discogs listing that some of the foreign language version were also issued in Argentina, Peru, Canada and Congo! The English language version was also issued in many other countries. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:44, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Other language versions

message: It doesn't make sense that the lyrics are, according to most, but not all, websites:
And you knew where you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men.
It makes more sense that it would be:
And you knew who you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men.
I wanted to point this out. Maybe somebody transcribed it wrong long ago and the error spread all over the Internet. 5Q5 (talk) 12:21, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The lyrics clearly have the word "where" in them and, while unpleasantly genderist, make perfect sense as is. But this is moot as you're on the wrong page; those lyrics belong to the theme of All in the Family. Vegan4Life (talk) 10:51, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Lyric controversy "where you were" vs "who you were"

message: Vera Lynn covered it.  I think it's the best version. 72.10.219.246 (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Vera Lynn

message: Anyone who heard the Russian original can tell that it's essentially the same tune, therefore it is a clear case of plagiarism for Gene Raskin to claim sole credit for the song. This article, however, is shy about stating something that is not ambiguous. Hzh (talk) 18:03, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure there was ever a court case. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:06, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Clear case of plagiarism

message: Finnish Wikipedia has page about this song but it's not listed as a version: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi_niit%C3%A4_aikoja 91.153.176.92 (talk) 16:07, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: How to link to another language version

message: Once Raskin's knowing appropriation of the song's full rights came to light, what happened regarding the royalties? Did he get lyric and music royalties until the end of his life, or was it ever sorted out so Fomin's estate was reimbursed for the amount already stolen, then continue to receive royalties in perpetuity? Vegan4Life (talk) 10:38, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Royalties? 

message: The melody sounds a lot like that of "Ich liebe das Leben." Was that latter based on ThWthD? Kdammers (talk) 15:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ich liebe das Leben