Talk:Human rights in Saudi Arabia

message: If there is a specific, ongoing, NPOV dispute that justifies the tag on the front page then this should be made clear on this page or else the tag should be removed. 152.91.9.115 (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the neutrality tag, as this question hasn't been answered in 3 months, and there is nothing else in the talk page pertaining to the it. Khukri 19:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: "Implementation of a government resolution supporting expanded employment opportunities for women met resistance from within the labor ministry[3], from the religious police [4], and from the male citizenry[5]."
the links doesn't exist i hope someone bring the References or it will be deleted and not from memri because it's famous for being anti-arabArabian soul 15:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What you consider "Anti-Arab" is irrelevant, there are approved sources that can be used if they state something relevant to the section2605:6001:E39D:C900:6054:3330:45BD:C5EC (talk) 05:43, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: women work

message: "It is absurd ..." Crown Prince Abdullah ... in New York City, New York on 6 September.  
But which year?
--Liberatus 23:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably 2000, because the article says "Millenium summit".  By googling  there was apparently a summit in New York between 6 - 8 September, 2000.  But maybe there are others.- THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 14:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious freedoms 

message: I don't know where the writer found that Saudi Arabia prohibits Satellite TV. I'm a saudi arabian living in Saudi Arabia, the goverment itself airs four diffrent satellite channels. Burning phoneix 09:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, please edit using verifiable sources.  Elizmr 23:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Prohibiting Sattelite television?

message: Please clean up the introduction. Seperate your run-on sentences. Should the West be discussed in the first or second line? Does that represent a worldwide view? I don`t mean to reprimand or anything, but I`m honestly not sure where that stands with Wikipedia policy. Also I doubt ``The Muslim World`` supports SA completely, as laws in the Muslim world are generally far more lax than to justify that sweeping statement. (Jiggssaw)
:Also, human rights are human rights, and international standards for these were set by a United Nations resolution.  If one means to say that Saudi laws are based on Sharia, that is one thing.  I find this lead paragraph to have a tone of special pleading to excuse Saudi Arabia, and not an appropriately NPOV. 72.49.43.222 (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Quality issues in Introduction

message: Thank you--Victor falk 21:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please see the merger discussion [[Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Apartheid#What.27s_wrong_with_Saudi_Arabia.3F|here]]

message: To discuss the proposed merge please go to Talk:Allegations_of_Saudi_Arabian_apartheid#Proposal Lothar of the Hill People 02:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging from Apartheid in Saudi Arabia 

message: :Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads in large cities. However, most women are capable of driving...
What are we talking about here? Physical capability? Or actual knowledge? I doubt the latter since you don't learn to drive without practice. So unless someone brings some reference for that (and possibly even: how) women learn to drive, I'll delete the phrase. (It's already marked with "citation needed", but those tend to be in articles forever before anything ever happens...)
As for apartheid, I don't see any reason for having that section in its current form: It's some odd assortment of different topics, partly already covered in other sections of the article. And I simply don't see what informational value it has whether something is called "apartheid" (or "holocaust" or whatever). What interests is, in my opinion, whether the human rights are infringed (which they seem to be here) rather than what somehow calls that. If anyone believes that the section on women somehow profits from adding that this is considered apartheid--feel free to add it there. Else I would simply delete that part and all that talks about "apartheid" and rename the entire section "Religious and ethnic minorities".
I feel that the first section is actually an intro to the article, so I'd like to delete the section header (so that the section becomes the article intro). If someone has objections, please suggest a different header as the current one seems misleading, being identical to the article title--logically, it would suggest that the rest of the article talks about something else.
 As always, I'll be happy to hear different views and/or get convinced otherwise, else I wouldn't write these lines.--Ibn Battuta 04:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One point need to be made clear.  Legally speaking, there is no law in Saudi Arabia prohibiting women from driving, and women do drive outside of big cities. They even drive large trucks. The main objection to women driving comes from Saudi families who do not accept the possibility of the their daughters being arrested or jailed for traffic accidents and violations. It is thus a matter of a specific local culture and not a matter of law.  Most of the discussions presented here seem to just be fishing for bits of information designed to bash the Saudis, Arabs and Islam for no apparent reason other than them being preceived as the alien other which is safe to attack, making us feel better about our shortcommings, and justify our atrocities against others.173.74.22.141 (talk) 19:03, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women and driving 

message: The article makes a note of literacy between men and women under "Women's rights". What does this have to with women's rights? Women are allowed to learn. If they choose not to because of social circumstances, that is deplorable, but it is not like their rights are being violated. Bless sins (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only are women allowed to learn, their education is compulsory up to a certain age just like it is for males.  Further, if you think about it a little, if some muslim clerics make it necessary for a female to be educated by another female, or for a female to see a female doctor if available, etc., then it holds to reason that these same clerics have no objection to women working in these fields and in many cases encourage it to fulfill a need in the society.173.74.22.141 (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literacy 

message: In terms of human rights, in some aspects Saudi Arabia is more dictatorial and backward than North Korea (in Kim Jong Il’s tragic kingdom, at least formally, there is an elected parliament, political parties, secularism, freedom of religion and equality between men and women).
The fact that sometimes Saudi Arabia appears “more modern” or “beginning to achieve political openess” is because the country has a very good international PR, and it has always been one of the “staunch allies” of oil-hungry United States (first, against “Godless Communism”, after 1991 against “Middle East Instability”, and after 2001, against “International Islamic Terrorism”).
I know the declaration above is POV, but anyway, I think that at least some of these aspects could be included in a NPOV way inside the article.
:Couple of counterpoints.  As far as I know, there is neither secularism nor freedom of religion in North Korea.  Instead Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il have essentially replaced all religions as demigods of sorts.  While freedom of religion is officially recognized, religious beliefs in practice are either stamped out or so tightly controlled that they become another extension of the state's ideology.
:Political parties; there is only one that matters, the Korean Workers' Party.  And in practice, only one man's opinion controls it.  There are no liberals or conservatives, moderates or hard-liners, leftists or rightists in North Korea.  There is whatever Kim Jong Il decides.
:Elected parliament; it has no power and everyone knows it.  The only institution other than the Beloved Leader that has any power is the military, not any branch of the government - hardly democracy at work.
:Gender equality; probably true, but all that means in this case is that everyone is repressed equally.
:Agree on everything else you said... the only reason Saudi Arabia can come out smelling like a rose is because they sell us oil (not even strategic reasons - who do you think's been funding the Wahabbi movement and extremists like the Taliban for the last thirty years?)  And certainly they're in the top five worst regimes in the world.  I just wasn't sure why you were elevating North Korea - the two, though poles apart ideologically, are at about the same place morally as far as I can tell. 213.181.226.21 (talk) 12:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Bravo, well discussed. Tourskin (talk) 03:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

text: However this is meant to discuss about the article. Wikipedia talk pages are not chat rooms. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The point is:

message: I'm not sure if the politics and government template should be here.
If we look at articles like Human rights in Albania, Human rights in Canada, we see the template is not present. Other articles, though, have it: Human rights in India, Human rights in Turkey. Still others have a totally different template: Human rights in France.
"Human rights" is generally not an article on the template.
Thoughts?
VR talk 18:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: Should these two sections be merged?Cptnono (talk) 05:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Lumped together so needs cleanup. Also removed rebuttal line (however is WP:AVOID BTW) but added up top with a fact needed tag since reasoning is important. Clarified Jews coming in line. Added two sources and a line.Cptnono (talk) 06:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-Muslims and Religious freedoms

message: Beheading is the punishment for sorcerers, apostates, wizards, murderers, rapists, drug traffickers and armed robbers, according to strict interpretation of Islamic law.
In D&D, a wizard studies magic, while a sorcerer casts spells through innate powers, like dragon's blood. I don't think this is what is being referred to. Can we replace both of these with "witchcraft?" In the Christian tradition, a witch is a blasphemous magic-user (no offense to the wiccans, etc.)
Is the use of these two different words a reference to some finer points in Sharia law. I know that fortunetelling is specifically forbidden in Islam, but I don't know which, if either refers to this. I think both sorcerer and wizard are poor word choices for describing blasphemy or what in English is usually called witchcraft. 
I think "blasphemy" would be best, since this covers a wide variety of crime from divination to magic missiles...
Modinyr (talk) 00:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the sources make a distinction between sorcery and witchcraft in Sharia as practised in Saudi. See for example: , , . This source  suggests that in Sharia witchcraft is a sub-set of sorcery i.e. sorcery = the practise of any magic and witchcraft = specifically black magic. The wording in the text does seem loose and unsourced so I've amended it with sources. DeCausa (talk) 08:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wizards, sorcerers , shaman, and headshrinkers 

message: A ban on Jews being in Saudi Arabia makes that country an apartheid state, so why not label it what it is, an apartheid state? 198.151.130.37 (talk) 02:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Apartheid implies racial/ethnic segregation of a group of people within the same country, and you would be correct if you were a Saudi Jew and they curtailed your movement and limited your rights.  However, having a ban on Jews from entering the land (which I have never heard of before and I am sure that just the American Embassy in Saudi Arabia must have at least a couple of Jews in it),  might be wrong but is not apartheid.  On the other hand, Saudi Arabia is formally in a state of war with Israel, a self declared Jewish state, and thus can be justified in denying Israeli nationals entry to their country.173.74.22.141 (talk) 05:16, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Apartheid

message: >> Migrant dies in Saudi detention centre riot >> Saudi accepts 181 UN human rights proposals(Lihaas (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: There seems to be a new Saudi human rights organisation, presumably partly based (presumably for security reasons) outside KSA: the European Saudi Society for Human Rights - http://esshright.blogspot.de . If RS's exist, it should be worth an article along with other Saudi human rights organisations. Boud (talk) 23:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The ESSHR blog seems to have stopped in 2014. Al Jazeera English claims (archive) the existence of yet another Saudi human rights organisation: ALQAST, an independent Saudi human rights organisation, rejected the government charges against the human rights activists in a statement published on its website on Saturday. "ALQAST insists communication is a basic right of civil society, and the authorities are trying to criminalise human rights work," the statement said." No URL is provided - the reader has to accept by faith that the website exists... Boud (talk) 22:36, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

text: *The European Saudi Organisation for Human Rights = ESOHR - https://euh.global.ssl.fastly.net/en/ - seems to be quite active in Arabic and has a modest amount of blog items dating back a few years. Boud (talk) 22:55, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. Boud (talk) 23:09, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

text: *ALQAST is probably ALQST @ https://alqst.org/eng/ - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-arrests/saudi-arabia-seeks-death-penalty-for-woman-activist-rights-groups-idUSKCN1L62EP - "ALQST, a London-based Saudi rights group, reported the decision involving Ghomgham’s case earlier this week. ". Boud (talk) 23:05, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. Boud (talk) 01:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  human rights organisations - ESSHR 

message: You'r likely not going to believe me, but I found an article that states that even the Muslim world actually is disturbed by the public beheadings that occur in Saudi Arabia.  Perhaps and article could be made on how the rest of the Muslim world views what goes on in the country.  I could be wrong, but I think it's worth mentioning.
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/19/7559007/saudi-arabia-punishments  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger (talk • contribs) 18:20, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: How the rest of the Muslim world views Saudi Arabia

message: I just removed a sentence from the article that said that importing Bibles (actually, it said "bibles") into Saudi Arabia or carrying them carried the death penalty due to a newly passed law.  This cited a December article in an evangelical Christian web site and a November article in an anti-death-penalty web site, which both derive from a November article in a Christian missionary web site, which says in bold letters at the top, "The information in this article is not confirmed by any official sources," and only says that "[the] government may have imposed new laws requiring the death penalty for the illegal smuggling of Bibles into the country."  It, in turn, derived its information from an article in Arabic at CoptsToday, a site for the predominantly-Christian Coptic ethnic minority in Egypt, which, if Google Translate is to be believed, cites a statement which doesn't mention Bibles at all by the Egyptian consulate in Jeddah about a new Saudi law, "الصادر بالمرسوم الملكي رقم م 42 بتاريخ 18/10/1404هـ", and is addressed to Egyptian travelers in Egypt.  It would be very helpful if someone who speaks Arabic could tell us what that law actually says.  The original missionary-site article now includes a note from a Saudi Arabian Christian explicitly denying this claim, but the other sites have not updated their articles to reflect this.
The human-rights situation in Saudi Arabia is genuinely bad, particularly with respect to freedom of religion, but we should be very careful to avoid the inclusion of this kind of inflammatory falsehood, especially at times like this.
Kragen Javier Sitaker (talk) 21:00, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just reverted a revert of my deletion of this inflammatory falsehood by 192.43.227.18, which seems to be a shared IP for a school in Australia.  If you actually want to restore this content, please make an argument for why it's not simply a falsehood here.  Kragen Javier Sitaker (talk) 14:06, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

text: What is apparently the same user has unreverted my revert and added an unsourced Canadian Times column repeating the same rumor as a "source", without bothering to justify it.  The Canadian Times is not a reliable source; it is a sensationalistic ultra-right-wing web site which, although it claims to have been publishing since 1904, doesn't even have a Wikipedia page.  I am reverting the new edit.  Please discuss future attempts to restore this accusation about Saudi Arabia here before just adding them to the page. Kragen Javier Sitaker (talk) 14:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bible-importation death penalty rumor appears to be false 

message: would it be more accurate to move this article to "Lack of human rights in Saudi Arabia"? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:29, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposed move 

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*Corrected formatting/usage for http://presstv.com/detail/198910.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://observers.france24.com/content/20111007-sectarian-protests-flare-anew-saudi-arabia-shiia-sunni-royal-family-east-province
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-police-open-fire-on-civilians-as-protests-gain-momentum-2365614.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 24 external links on Human rights in Saudi Arabia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131102124924/http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/453240/20130403/saudi-arabia-chop-square-beheading.htm to http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/453240/20130403/saudi-arabia-chop-square-beheading.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/nea/119126.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.karavalitimes.com/middle-east/saudi-polls-aid-sweeteners-not-enough-activists/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.acpra.net/news_view_5.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.acpra.net/news.php?action=list&cat_id=12
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://hrfssaudiarabia.org/
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-saudi-arabia
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/saudi-arabia-lengthy-sentences-reformists-worrying-development-2011-11-23
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/reform-activists-saudi-arabia-must-receive-fair-appeal-hearings-2012-01-25
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://ihrc.org.uk/attachments/article/9867/Saudi%20Report%20A4-v04.pdf
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/05/01/saudi-s-surprise-renegades.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/2011320112126999266.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/12/30/saudi-arabia-renewed-protests-defy-ban
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/07/29/253276/riyadh-mecca-see-fresh-protest-rallies/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/08/10/255462/saudis-call-for-prisoners-release/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.anhri.net/en/?p=9263
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-arabia/saudi-campaigner-goes-on-trial-1.1068937
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9422550.stm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.hrcr.org/regional/middle.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/saudi-arabia-ramps-clampdown-human-rights-activists-2012-06-18
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://en.alkarama.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=961:saudi-arabia-prominent-human-rights-defender-risks-5-years-of-prison-for-cooperating-with-the-un&catid=33:communiqu&Itemid=179
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://presstv.com/detail/198910.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://observers.france24.com/content/20111007-sectarian-protests-flare-anew-saudi-arabia-shiia-sunni-royal-family-east-province
*Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-police-open-fire-on-civilians-as-protests-gain-momentum-2365614.html
*Added  tag to http://www.salafimanhaj.com/pdf/SalafiManhaj_Saudi.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:56, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello all. The article currently contains a high number of citations to Press TV, an Iranian-state sponsored media outlet that has been deprecated by the community, as it has been shown by editors to publish false and fabricated information, as well as to publish conspiracy theories. I also see at least one citation to RT's youtube account; RT is similarly deprecated by the community. It might take a bit of work to rewrite portions of the article without these sources, but currently it may well be the case that the page contains claims that are not supported by  reliable sources. I'm going to remove the items for which I can't find citations to reliable sources, though I want to leave this note here just to explain this before I do so. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mass use of deprecated source 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
*  ()
*  ()
Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:52, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Saudi Arabia and the apartheid analogy and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 30#Saudi Arabia and the apartheid analogy until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Iskandar323 (talk) 10:44, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Saudi Arabia and the apartheid analogy" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]