Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Archive Jan 2007

message: Hello everyone. I just wanted to leave a brief message here to let everyone know that no matter what the new structure of leadership may be, I will not be running for re-election; in addition, even if terms are extended due to delayed elections, I will be stepping down from the council on January 1st, when my original term expires. This is due to a combination of being burnt out as well as being very busy IRL. While I have been relatively inactive the past few months, I hope I will be able to commit more time to tne encyclopedia once I get settled into my new job and location in the next month or two.
I'd like to thank everyone for being so supportive during the last six months. I feel like I was able to accomplish a few things, even though some of those have been derailed by the MfD aftermath. I hope that I will still be able to do a few community building activities, including admin coaching, though I imagine I will be much more in the background of this organization than I have been in the past 11 months. For those of you taking up the reigns of Esperanza, I wish you the very best of luck; though our programs and our relationship to the encyclopedia may change, please always remember that Esperanza was founded on camaraderie and hope. The day we forget that Wikipedia is not only an encyclopedia but also a community is the day when the true spirit of Wikipedia begins to fall apart. I always urge you to go beyond mere civility and strive to be friendly, helpful, and supportive of your fellow editors. Once again, thank you for everything, and I wish all of you the best of luck in all your endeavors, Wikipedia-related and beyond. Cheers, EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 08:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We will all miss you; come back soon! WikieZach| talk 13:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Good luck, come back some time and catch up with everything and update us on your situation - • The Giant Puffin • 17:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do hope you come back in the near future!--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 00:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that you will return sometime later, and good luck! Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Final thanks to everyone

message: Hey all, I hope you're all having good holidays :)
It seems that discussing the charter, and what Esperanza will be is all the happens here right now, but hopefully this will be sorted out soon, and then Esperanza can get back to helping people. But, until then, I've written up a small charter (don't worry, I've kept it short), based on the discussions I've been active in, and all the other things I've read. This isn't a charter proposal (except if everyone likes it, and wants to use it), just some suggestions on what we could have. User:The Halo/Esperanza.
Thε Halo Θ 12:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After all the charter discussions, it seems like a short and sweet charter that just gives goals and makes things easy, could work well.  I could have posted this in the above charter discussions, but here The Halo has given a tangible suggestions for what seems to have been discussed.  If this seems okay, it may not even need to be considered a "charter".  As Quack pointed out, many other organisations carry on their goals without official charters, rather just with general missions of the organization.  It's a good point that was made.  Perhaps Esperanza can do that too?  Perhaps. -- Natalya 16:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The problem is that many Esperanzans apparently haven't had enough experience to build up their faith in the wiki. (Compare to kids who are afraid of the water on their first swimming lesson). Hmmmmm! Kim Bruning 19:40, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I pointed out that a lot of other groups don't have formal charters is that they have Wikipedia policy and guideline pages to refer to instead. CVU doesn't need to define what vandalism is - they can just link to the relevant policy page and say "we do that.". Even if it's "obvious" what vandalism is, it still needs to be properly defined somewhere. By the same token, if you want Esperanza to have a simple "we support the community" charter, there needs to be some page that says just what that means - whether it's in the charter or on another page doesn't really matter. Quack 688 23:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, community is defined in Community! Isn't it great to work on an encyclopedia?--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 23:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandalism's got a Wikipedia article too. But that article's got absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia vandalism - that's why we need a page like WP:VANDALISM, to say exactly what is considered vandalism on Wikipedia and what isn't. Same thing here. We have to say, somewhere, that  training editors is great, but barking dog noises aren't so good. Supporting other editors is great, but that doesn't extend to mass-supporting them in a RfA because you like them. It doesn't matter if those bad things are going on or not - since a lot of people on the MfD thought that's what Esperanza is about, you need to make it crystal clear what Esperanza is and what it isn't. Quack 688 00:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esperanza Charter Again 

message: I am a new Esperanzian! Is there anything I can do? WikiMan53 T/C edits Review Me! 20:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi! Welcome! I just used the What to do now to figure out what I would do when I joined, but that was a few months ago. I hope this helps, and Happy New Year! Jam01 02:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hi!  

message: I was looking over User:Ed/SandboxWikipedia:Esperanza/Editors' Forum, when it occurred to me that it looks rather like a portal. So I looked over the "main esperanza page" for a comparison, and I really think that that should be a portal. I think there should be a discussion about what parts of Esperanza could/should be moved to Portalspace... - jc37 23:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe Portal:Esperanza or merge it w/ Wikipedia:Community Portal ? TeckWizTalkContribs@ 00:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...You are aware that the portals are supposed to act as gateways to articles on particular subjects? Like Portal:LGBT, or Portal:Judaism. There isn't a portal for an internal process. There's no Portal:MILHIST, there's a Portal:War. You can create a Portal:Hope, but Portal:Esperanza doesn't stand a rat's chance in hell of surviving a day without being MfD'd. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 00:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm.. Well personally, I think such portals would be interesting and useful. Consider Template:Cent. Why couldn't a portal be created for something like that? How about a "discussion" portal for all the XfDs/RfAs/RfCs, etc? In any case, I don't see what the problem would be with an Esperanza Portal... In reading over Wikipedia:Portal/Guidelines, I don't think that what I am suggesting is far afield from what's alreadfy listed... - jc37 23:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portal 

message: Unfortunately, I will no longer be a member of Esperanza. I have been debating whether to leave since last night. This was a hard decision to make, but I feel that I could no longer be a part of this organization. 
This organization was dedicated to the improvement of the Wikipedia community. Since the first day I added my name to the members' list, I have seen no overall effect on the rest of Wikipedia. Our efforts have only been centered on the members of Esperanza. In no way have I seen a successful organizational effort to reach out to the rest of the Wikipedian community. 
During the MfD, as most of you know, there were many votes to "delete" Esperanza. I voted "keep", which I now realize was not the best vote to make. The delete voters were actually trying to help all of EA's members, seeing the faults with our community. We have remained blind to the cries of our fellow editors regarding the problems Esperanza's been having since the past few months.
Since the MfD, the overall community has weakened. In several different places were effors to revive Esperanza. Decisions have never been made. The AC has participated in Esperanza a little bit less than usual (which I understand to be due to numerous Wikibreaks).  Less Esperanzians have been giving Happy Birthday wishes to its members. Face it, we have failed Esperanza. More than that, we have failed the Wikipedian community. (Note that I say "we", I feel that I am guilty of not carrying out EA's ideals).
Please do not misinterpret this long speech that I'm giving. I fully support the goals and ideals of Esperanza. There have been several exceptional non-Esperanza-affiliated editors I've seen that promote Wikilove in the best possible way. I have seen many respected members of Esperanza that fulfill the goals of Esperanza to their highest limits. Unfortunately, these respected members, noticing the flaws of this bureaucratical organization, have listened to those non-Esperanzians who supported the MfD, and left. Esperanza's best influential editors are leaving one by one, our actively participating members slowly decreasing.  Our member population will get lower, and lower, and lower...
...until there were none--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 16:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So long, Ed--SUIT 19:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leaving 

message: Okay-Esperanza is falling apart. We all know it. Some of our best users are leaving one by one. We need to rebuild, avoid another MFD, and straighten everything out. To do this, we're going to need to put a lot of attention toward rebuilding. So I say, we temporarily stop all programs except important ones like alerts, and try to rebuild. It seems like the AC members aren't really active and our admin general just left. We're falling apart! And unless anyone has a problem with it, since we have no leadership anymore, I would like to put myself in charge of a get active and rebuilding project, maybe even create a page. --(trying to get 1,000 edits in 1 month!) TeckWizTalkContribs@ 16:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Editcountitis isn't good, Teckwiz. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I know. I added that yesterday because I think I'm only about 250 away from 1,000 in December and I really want to reach it! --(trying to get 1,000 edits in 1 month!) TeckWizTalkContribs@ 16:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it really worth it? EA has pretty much collapsed. Why not just let it go - maybe not MFD, so later on people can restart EA if they want to. I wouldn't mind an MFD, however, and would vote delete if that did happen. Moreschi  Deletion! 18:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is exactly why I jumped ship, so to speak.  I think the ideals of Esperanza are easily upheld without any complicated project and whatnot.  And what do you mean the admin general left?  Natalya is still on the members list.  DoomsDay349 19:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: She's leaving on the 1st. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I've also been thinking this way.  What's wrong with decentralization?  The Welcoming Commitee and other sub-groups would not drown if they were cut loose, and I expect they would retain many of their members since nothing has really changed when it comes to welcoming people.  Dar-Ape 19:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Disregard that example, but you know what I mean.  Dar-Ape 19:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop All Programs! 

message: I've started a rebuilding of Esperanza at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Rebuilding. Everyone is invited to join, save, and fix Esperanza. I also need two assistant overseers. Please see the page! TeckWizTalkContribs@ 20:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That kind of unneeded bureaucracy is precisely why Esperanza came under fire in the first place. Moreschi  Deletion! 20:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just to make the program runs smoothly. If Wikipedia could exist w/o bureaucracy, why are there admins and b'crats? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TeckWiz (talk • contribs) 20:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Well, that's certainly a useAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHEN WILL YOU LEARN????!??!!!!??!?!?! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Instead of yelling (caps) argh, please write a comment about what you think. And, if no one wants to rebuild it, why are you still members. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 20:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Admins are not bureaucrats, they're merely users with advanced powers. Bureaucrats exist because the whole of Wikipedia is a lot more complex than running a simple Wikiproject. I still don't understand why Esperanza is so special that it's above using consensus, just as all of Wikipedia does. And Teck, I believe that neither Dev nor I am members.  The idea of overseers and governance is the crap that got you in the MFD in the first place.  DoomsDay349 20:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: TeckWiz, do you not understand the message I've been trying to send about bureaucracy, multiple discussions, and hiercical governance? That is exactly why most of us left!--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 21:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I have lost all faith in this project. PTOTalk 21:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Beuracracy is gone in the program :). It's now just people interested and decision by consensus. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 21:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: You still have an AC, you claim to be Head Overseer of ECOTM (a position I mistakenly created), even have a special userbox for yourself, and now you claim to be Overseer of the rebuilding project.  I call that bureaucracy.  DoomsDay349 21:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Once you left, I put myself as head of ECOTM. I claimed to be the overseer of the rebuilding project, but once people said it was terrible, I took out the bureaucracy TeckWizTalkContribs@ 21:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People, listen! Why are we quarrelling over this? Can't we just settle on one thing? Since TeckWiz has said that he took out the bureucracy, then so be it! The important thing now is to keep our heads clear, and try to keep Esperanza from collapsing. I don't know about you guys, but I'm staying, and I will help TeckWiz with whatever he is proposing. I know that you are free to choose your own pah, but I just want to tell you, Ed and DoomsDay, you guys could help out too...we need all the help we can get. Please, don't you remember all the time you spent here, in Esperanza? Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Esperanza/Rebuilding|Rebuilding Esperanza]] 

message: I would like to see the proposed Appreciation Week intended to finish on January 15th continue, if only at a probably reduced level. Would anyone here also be willing to perhaps become somewhat involved in such an activity. Basically, my own limited knowledge of wikipedia is such that I could probably contact various groups which might be willing to take part, but I would need someone much better versed with wikipedia's channels for the factual "real-world" (if that's what they are) work, for actually getting the ceremonies out there live, hopefully. Badbilltucker 20:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appreciation Week 

message: In case anyone hasn't noticed, Esperanza is up for another MfD. It probably won't survive this one. It's a shame to see a project with so much potential go, but it has spun out of control. Cheers, PTO 22:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 2nd-ed. It really is sad to see it go, but Esperanza has lost so much soul, and has become a place for pointless debate, and no hope. Thε Halo Θ 22:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Esperanza ya no tiene esperanza. Esperanza has lost hope. --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 22:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Quesa dia to that!  Please forgive my American ignorance. DoomsDay349 22:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quesadilla?  Someone's hungry! Ha ha! Hey, that was pretty funny!forgive my stupid humor At least a little funnyness is still here.... But I have one last shout to give for when Esperanza was fun, when it was all normal: ¡Viva Esperanza! Heh heh, excuse me, my mexican blood has stirred up....--Tohru Honda13Sign here! 22:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Lo siento. Hablo español poco. Soy un estudiante de español uno. Anyway, I think Esperanza should be kept, but marked historical. And to prevent a revival, we can protect it.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 22:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it should be historical. Personally, why keep something that brings bad memories? Example, all of the best programs were deleted, lots of members left us, etc. Yo soy una estudiante de español dos. One thing I admired was that the name of this project was a Spanish word. I appreciate that. --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 22:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  More and more proof that hope and humor will endure without Esperanza.  DoomsDay349 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Just put  at the top, and an admin should come by and delete it. –The Great Llamasign here 23:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you subst:ed your template when you made that page, then it won't go away. If you didn't, however, then it will be lost. PTO 23:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Will everyone who would like to see Esperanza stick around leave me a note on my userpage. Geo. 00:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That may or may not be votestacking.  DoomsDay349 00:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No-one's left a  message yet, so it doesn't really matter at the moment. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MfD 

message: I'm just wondering about how people became members of EA. Did you find out about Esperanza due to the kindness of a fellow editor? I found out about Esperanza when Aeon1006 submitted his Esperanza Barnstar proposal to WP:BAP. =) Therefore, an editor's kindness did not lead me to membership here.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 23:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hell if I know.  It's been so long I've forgotten.  DoomsDay349 23:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't remember how I first learnt about Esperanza (I was new to Wikipedia then), but I joined (in October) because of the actions of Richardshusr. When I was considering leaving Wikipedia in July, he provided me lots of support and encouragement, and I stayed as a result, and joined Esperanza in October, hoping to lend such support to other users, and make Wikifriends. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 13:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Membership Poll 

message: Goodbye all. I'm leaving Esperanza. The community aspect is gone, all programs are abandoned and falling apart, the leadership that kept the organization together is gone, and we've been MFD'd a second time. I was thinking of leaving, and once an Esperanzian yelled at me (using caps) 'haven't you [as in me] learned my lesson", I knew I was done. Soon everyone will be done, as this MFD looks like it will end in delete. Goodbye. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 00:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, I shouted "When will you learn!" in a fit of utter exasperation. If that unintentionally hurt you, I sincerely apologise, but it was more a scream at the edifice of Esperanza than some kind of attack on you. For the record, I have never been a member of Esperanza. Pax vobiscum. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No,TeckWiz, I don't mean to stop you or something, but think of the things Esperanza can do!! Look at the Admin Coaching program, so many people are still waiting for that turn! I know from someone that some of them are already waiting from July. Are we going to tell them that they're supposed to abandon all of their efforts now? Please, don't stop! For all Esperazians, we should try to reform Esperanza!! Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Admin coaching seems to me to be not much more than a way to game the system at RFA. You can't coach people to become admins. The community has to have trust in them and that cannot be taught. But others do regard Admin coaching as worthwhile, so feel free to transfer it to elsewhere before EA gets folded up. Moreschi  Deletion! 14:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have an issue with Admin Coaching particuarly, the appropriate response is to talk to the involved community members about it, and if that fails, to nom Admin Coaching alone, not the whole of Esperanza. And actually, I did coach someone to be an admin, and that person coached another person. If you want to start a debate about admin coaching do it somewhere else. I'm done. --Fang Aili talk 14:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, and read the noms at MFD. This happened because Esperanza had and continues to have a detrimental effect on the community and on the encyclopedia. It's not just me that says this - judging by the MFD quite a few others agree, to say the least. Moreschi  Deletion! 14:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any reason for you to say that other than to rub salt on a wound. Please stop. --Fang Aili talk 14:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Well...you know that the Wikimedia Foundation has to make money somehow...anyway, it's sad to see any editor leave, and I hope you come back soon. PTO 04:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the most civil manner possible, I cannot believe that you are so upset over a bloody ad on the top of the page that you would leave Wikipedia.  I'm sorry that you have to leave, but rethink it; is it really such a good reason to? DoomsDay349 18:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I've been thinking! Why leave over an ad? I thought I was the only one who thought that way! --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 02:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To each his own.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  03:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why leave over an ad? Because it's against Wikipedia's principals. People need to stand up and go against this other wise next time there will be a bigger ad. I realise some don't agree - Wikipedia Review questioned the decision - but I feel it needs to be done so people understand why ads can't go up on wikipedia.--HamedogTalk|@ 06:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out the post I made on User talk:Jimbo Wales. I still await a response...=) Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 06:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean this one: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Virgin_Unite? But, to confirm my decision, it feel betrayed as it appeared Wikipedia was a neutral project which would remain free of advertisements yet the Foundation goes along and, in exchange for money, puts up a logo and link to a corporations website. Annoyed by the whole thing and seems some other Wikipedians are. The thin edge of the wedge will prevail - watch.--HamedogTalk|@ 06:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goodbye 

message: Thought I should tell you guys that due to the Virgin Unite adverts I will be leaving Wikipedia. I will return when there is an apology to Wikipedian's against ads that putting that logo up was harmful to Wikipedia.--HamedogTalk|@ 02:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well...you know that the Wikimedia Foundation has to make money somehow...anyway, it's sad to see any editor leave, and I hope you come back soon. PTO 04:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the most civil manner possible, I cannot believe that you are so upset over a bloody ad on the top of the page that you would leave Wikipedia.  I'm sorry that you have to leave, but rethink it; is it really such a good reason to? DoomsDay349 18:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I've been thinking! Why leave over an ad? I thought I was the only one who thought that way! --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 02:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To each his own.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  03:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why leave over an ad? Because it's against Wikipedia's principals. People need to stand up and go against this other wise next time there will be a bigger ad. I realise some don't agree - Wikipedia Review questioned the decision - but I feel it needs to be done so people understand why ads can't go up on wikipedia.--HamedogTalk|@ 06:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out the post I made on User talk:Jimbo Wales. I still await a response...=) Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 06:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean this one: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Virgin_Unite? But, to confirm my decision, it feel betrayed as it appeared Wikipedia was a neutral project which would remain free of advertisements yet the Foundation goes along and, in exchange for money, puts up a logo and link to a corporations website. Annoyed by the whole thing and seems some other Wikipedians are. The thin edge of the wedge will prevail - watch.--HamedogTalk|@ 06:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Goodbye 

message: I am disappointed with the behavior of everyone at both MfDs (Esperanzians and non-Esperanzians).  I cannot believe how much the positive atmosphere has been destroyed by these MfDs.  Like many of the members who have left, I am saddened to see the status of Esperanza and the negative opinions of it in the rest of the community.  I do not have too much hope that Esperanza will survive this MfD, so I therefore will try to continue some of the programs that I think are important.  I still believe in the goals of Esperanza, and with Esperanza or without it, I will always try to fulfill the goals.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  20:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry... but we (or I am at least) are just trying to decide what's  good for Esperanza, and I believe it is a delete. Esperanza just broke down completely. Lots of people left because the best programs were delted, we went through a lot of changes. Better to have it gone than to have members leaving and feeling depressed. I agree with you, it is saddening. I believe the only program we should keep is the Stress Alets. Seems to be the only thing that is important. But I will say it again..... If Esperanza is deleted, let me say something in memorial of it: ¡Viva Esperanza! Translated: Long live Esperanza! --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 01:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disappointed 

message: Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention.  Badbilltucker 18:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Day Awards 

message: What do people think of the new layout for the disposition of the programs?  Though it is informative, it seems like the shorter listing of the programs still active was more appropriate for the decision that was made regarding Esperanza.  It also kept the page more succinct.  Thoughts? -- Natalya 03:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We should have a list of the programs for a while. Maybe a few months? -Amarkov blahedits 03:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the shorter listing was better. It was to the point, not advertising. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 03:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But people should know where the programs went. For instance, if I want to find the calendar, how do I know where to go? -Amarkov blahedits 03:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Calendar was listed: .  I agree with Dev920, I think the old version was better.  List the programs that are still active or have equivalents in bullet form in the infobox, and leave discussion of the others to the essay. —bbatsell ¿? 03:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer the shorter list.  The larger one takes up too much space.  Links could be added to archives/new pages if needed.  I do not think the images or table are needed.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  03:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The current version just seems to clutter the essay. (my 2 cents...)--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 03:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like there's general agreement, so I'll put it to what it was before.  And don't worry Amarkov, all of the programs are still listed in the lower section of the essay.  You're right though, it's definitly important to cover what Esperanza did. -- Natalya 03:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, I wasn't aware there was another list. I didn't care for it at the front, but a list needed to be somewhere. -Amarkov blahedits 03:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not too stressed whether the deleted programs still have their original icons, or if they're just mentioned in the essay text. But either way, there should be direct links to the deleted programs, so their history can be easily accessed. Quack 688 03:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disposition of programs 

message: Should we mention on the page that the Trading Spaces program has been to moved here,  part of Wikiproject User page help?--24.20.69.240 03:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm... it was moved a long time ago, so it may be thut auuuutuat it's already accepted as a program no longer associated with Esperanza. -- Natalya 03:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I never considered it an EA program, but it might be of interest to other editors.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 04:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The essay page currently  lists it as a former program,as does the program page itself (though since haven`t been watching Esperanza from the start, I don`t really know). Anyways, I thought that if it is listed there, it would be helpful to link to its current location so people(esp. newcomers) would know where to find it, but it`s  not a big deal to me either way. 24.20.69.240 10:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trading Spaces program  

message: I don't think so. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 08:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "Esperanzan" is getting quite problematic now.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 14:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What does matter is that you carry the sense of community that Esperanza fostered with you throughout your editing. -- Natalya 16:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Am I still considered an Esperanzan? 

message: Just wanted to say that the page as it stands is now fine and we should all now go away and get on with some editing. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about the first 2 sections of discussion on this talk page?--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 14:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment. 

message: ...make sure it is this one... to Jimbo Wales RE this whole issue. . Best. 172.142.14.15 06:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The community - if it still exists - doesn't care any more. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 06:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides, we don't need a project or a petition to spread community Love or what not. The deletion of Esperanza has woken me up. We can sspread The sense od community without Esperanza. Wikipedia can survive without Esperanza. It's not the end of Wiki. --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 06:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, just move on, or something like that--SUIT 07:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: If you only ever sign one petition...

message: The Signpost has published an article on the closing of Esperanza  here. Can the link to it be included on the page along with the link to the article on its founding? If so, can two article links be in the same box to avoid clutter? 24.20.69.240 07:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I did that.--Alf melmac 11:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Signpost article  

message: What is the problem with having shortcuts on Wikipedia:Esperanza? Removing the shortcuts will cause numerous red-links on several talk-pages.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 16:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Radiant above, I believe the shortcuts are going to stay; the essay simply will not have a shortcut box on it detailing the different shortcuts to it.  I don't really see the problem with that.  —bbatsell ¿? 17:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Regarding Bbatsell's comment above - I can confirm that the shortcuts are to stay - they will simply not be advertised on the essay. Anthonycfc [T • C] 00:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me.  I don't know if Ed was confused or what but I don't see any need for the shortcuts to be on the essay page.  Thanx for the explanation.  --Richard 07:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortcuts 

message: In reading the discussions above, I detect an animus against Esperanza that is so strong that some people seem to want to erase all record of its existence from Wikipedia.  Doing so would amount to a "Delete" decision as opposed to an "Inactivate and decentralize" decision which I understand to have been the compromise conclusion of the MfD.  IMO, inactivating a Wikipedia project is different from deleting a mainspace article.  When we delete a mainspace article, we don't want any trace of it left behind except for the AfD discussion.  Keeping the history of an inactivated a Wikipedia project shouldn't be problematic except for those who believe that the project was so inimical to Wikipedia's interests that all trace of it should be deleted from the archives.  I don't think that was the consensus of the MfD discussion.  If that's the decision that you want, then find a way to build a consensus around it.  Otherwise, please respect the compromise.
--Richard 17:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 100% agreed.  The level of venom some editors have been regarding both the essay and the talk page with is astounding and completely contrary to consensus reached in the MfD.  Whether you liked or disliked the project, I don't think anyone in their right mind could stand here and say that the project didn't have noble goals or Wikipedia's interests at heart; the general consensus is that it lost its direction along the way and evolved into a project that placed more emphasis on socializing than other activities.  Knowing and seeing what happened and, more particularly, how it happened, is important for future Wikipedians.  —bbatsell ¿? 17:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been seeing a little activity regarding undeletion of some of the pages.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 17:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: For the record, this was later deleted, as the red-link now shows. Carcharoth 18:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: No. Please help write the encyclopedia. Carcharoth 11:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with Carcharoth on this one. If you want to carry on Esperanza's ideals, that's fine, there are other groups and programs still active with similar goals. And, of course, you can carry on its ideals without any group structure whatsoever. But the community's decided that a massive group which runs lots of programs and has its own elected council isn't what Wikipedia is about, so we all need to learn from that and move on. Quack 688 11:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quack, I remembered that you used to argue for a sort of page to demonstrate how to strenghten the community before the MfD. It seems that a few people want Esperanza reinstated, but that will unfortunately be brought down into another debate. I think that we should take your ideas and make an essay/guideline/policy(?) on the structure of the community?--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 15:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was mainly about some goals and principles that I thought should be in the Esperanza charter, but since Esperanza's shut down, I'm not sure how relevant that is any more. Right now, the only thing I really want us to do is to take a step back, have some quiet reflection for a moment or two, and learn what we can from Esperanza's mistakes. That's why I'm worried by any suggestion of bringing back Esperanza. It's clear from the last MfD that Esperanza was widely considered to be too bureaucratic to exist - any attempt to bring it back against that kind of consensus would result in nothing more than pissing off a large chunk of the Wikipedia community. Quack 688 16:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They decided to ignore you. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record - you know, history :-) - Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Geo.plrd/Phoenix. Carcharoth 18:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmm. I'll put that up for MfD. I do like the suggestion on the talk page: User_talk:Geo.plrd/Phoenix. Carcharoth 17:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this not a speedy issue? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's kind of a touchy, borderline issue.  Traditionally, userspace has a lot more leeway, so there aren't a lot of provisions for speedy deletion in userspace.  Plus, there have been numerous very long, very vicious debates about speedying things like this.  It's a much more permanent solution to MfD it so it really can't be contested at all.  (The only speedy criteria that comes close to applying that I can see is G4, but G4 requires the content to be largely identical, which this is not.) —bbatsell ¿? 17:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In some ways a speedy deletion is possible, but as Bbatsell says, lets follow the book on this one. Carcharoth 17:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aw crap, I was in the middle of writing out how they'd kept all the bad bits of Esperanza (governance with 4 members? Coffee Lounge?), and obviously hadn't learned anything from the experience, when someone came along and speedied it, so I couldn't make my point. D'oh. Oh, well, I'll say it on the record here: That Was A Really Bad Idea. Now, can we have someone gently enlighten these individuals as to why it'd be a bad idea to try that again? Cheers for pointing that out, btw. Quack 688 18:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See also WP:ANI#Ahem. I was thinking that Quack has a point about showing failure to learn, but admin-historians can do that later, when the dust has settled. Let's keep on top of these recreation attempts for now, and also continue finaliszing the Esperanza closure details. Carcharoth 18:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A comment about the MfD decision 

message: Hi.
Just asking, I'd be curious to know what the reactions of the members of the Esperanza Wikigroup (is that a "real" word?) were when their group was disbanded. Could any of them please tell me?
Just wondering. 74.38.35.171 07:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read the MfD for Esperanza, you will find that many former members of Esperanza, including myself, regretfully supported its deletion. I explained why I left Esperanza in this essay. As it turns out, I chose to leave Esperanza not very long before the group was nominated for deletion. I can't speak for other people, but I felt a little sad when it was deleted, but even more sad at how it had changed from the time when I first joined it... as well as at how divisive an issue it had become. --Kyoko 07:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The turns that this whole thing took were sad to watch. --Kukini 19:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. I was expecting everyone to have been horrified, upset, or something, crying so it would not happen, but I guess that was not quite the case. 74.38.35.171 20:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reactions 

message: Deeply saddened. Dfrg.msc  1 . 2 . Editor Review 07:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it was time. Esperanza was caught up in it own bureaucracy. ~Crazytales~patent nonsense! 13:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am 

message: Esperanza doesn't seem to want to die, does it? I am quite bemused why it has been allowed to turn this talk page into a on-going discussion about a dead project. Surely it is now time for this talk page to be purged, or better still locked for editing. doktorb wordsdeeds 15:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is for discussion about the essay and about how admins handled the Esperanza pages. There is currently a huge debate on whether the history was supposed to be deleted or not.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 15:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed with Ed. I've never been involved with Esperanza, but I am contributing here to try and help resolve the remaining issues amicably and without seeing history deleted. Progress is being made. Discussion here should be focused primarily on achieving a dignified, calm, well-organised shut-down that satisfies everyone. This will make it less likely that there will be future problems. Please allow this process to take place, instead of proposing to protect this page, which will simply inflame the issues. Carcharoth 15:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To resolve the issues on both this page and on the MfD talk page, perhaps we can request some input on WP:AN.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 15:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, I was going to post a WP:DRV, but Wikipedia:Deletion review#History only undeletion says that it is not necessary.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 15:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Even after death..... 

message: Esperanza is not a mere organisation that simply ends once its governance and membership rolls are terminated. It is a spirit that should live on in every editor, one of us, whether we were once a member or not. Many of its programs have lived on to carry on this ideal, and continue to strengthen the community to build a better encyclopedia. True Esperanzans take heart, look beyond, and will continue to bring hope to those who are in need, whether this organisation has ever existed in the first place. - Mailer Diablo 18:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  ) -- Natalya 21:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen. :D --Tohru Honda13Sign here! 21:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen, brother!--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 22:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So say us all. --Kukini 22:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So say we all.  --Cyde Weys 22:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even while I was never a member of Esperanza, I agree with its ideas. May its spirit continue in the hearts of every editor. Yuser31415 22:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Mailer Diablo :D. — Arjun 02:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Esperanza lives inside all of those who were touched. ~ Feureau E.S.P. 05:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I belive it's "Even when all hope is gone, move along, move along just to make it strong". I actually don't know.  -Amarkov blahedits 05:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno either. I just wrote what I thought it sounded like. :D --Tohru HondaSign here! 05:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Esperanza Spirit 

message: What's an Esperanza? The Captain Returns 02:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a rock on mars:
The southern hemisphere dust storm lowered power levels to 267 watt-hours on Spirit's 1,061st sol, or Martian day, of exploring Mars (Dec. 27, 2006). Spirit had been using its Moessbauer spectrometer to analyze the mineral composition of a rock nicknamed "Esperanza," a piece of lava full of tiny holes and known as vesicular basalt. Due to concern about low power, the team prepared to drive Spirit to a north-tilted spot on the way toward a new target, a layered outcrop known as "Troll."
Anyone think the people at JPL have too much time on there hands, reading about WP:ESP and redirecting the project to mars?--Rayc 03:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: LOL :D They named a rock "Esperanza"? I don't suppose it's named after the MfDed Esperanza though. ~ Feureau E.S.P. 05:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lol, Esperanza.