Talk:Juice Plus/Archive 4

message: It's pretty clear that we have some strong opinions about this article. An editor more senior than I has suggested a peer review of the article WP:PR and I think it is worth consideration. With more voices, I think we would be able to draw closer towards a consensus. I've never done this before so your thoughts would be valued.Citizen Don 03:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too would welcome it. TraceyR 07:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Worth doing soon as a step toward WP:FAC but it might be best to wait until we get closer to finishing the section on the Plotnick study. WP:PR isn't for disupte arbitration, it is more along the lines of proofreading and QC. Rhode Island Red 22:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm assuming that part of the peer review would be for people other than the usual editors to look closely at the article and determine the relevance of much of the material. It's not about dispute arbitration. It's about the article and how it should be written. I believe EdJohnston made the initial suggestion and I think it may be a good one. What do others think?Citizen Don 05:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer Review 

message: The SNAEMS website referenced in the article was withdrawn in 2002; it had not been updated since 1999 and has since been replaced (see withdrawal announcement page quoted below).
Data from the Special Nutritional Adverse Event Monitoring System website for dietary supplements has not been added to or updated since 1999, and the website has now been removed. The information previously available on dietary supplement adverse event reports on this website was very limited and was provided in a manner that made it difficult for users to appropriately interpret the adverse events. 
The Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition (CFSAN) is currently evaluating how best to provide adverse event data in a manner that is useful, meaningful, and appropriate. By doing so, CFSAN hopes to be able to provide the best information about all adverse event reports on a user-friendly website.
More information regarding the enhancement of this website will be posted here as it becomes available and as funding permits. 
Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See Letter to Stakeholders: Announcing CAERS, the CFSAN Adverse Event Reporting System August 29, 2002
The material from this site and the reference to SNAEMS therefore need to be removed from the article. Since the relevant content is doubly referenced, someone with access to both sources (SNAEMS and the NSA Virtual Franchise Owner's Manual (2002)) will need to sort this out. It would be good to check if there is a newer edition of this manual available and, if so, what it says about adverse effects. (As an aside, can sources not available to the general public be cited?) TraceyR 13:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Special Nutritional Adverse Event Monitoring System discontinued collecting reports in 2002, although this would have no bearing on reports of adverse events received by SNAEMS prior to that time. An active link to the adverse event reports on Juice Plus collected by SNAEMS is still available and is included in the WP article. Since SNAEMS has now stopped collecting reports, it is likely that adverse events associated with the use of Juice Plus have been under-reported. No new reporting system has been implemented to monitor AEs associated with supplement use. The Juice Plus AEs reported to SNAEMS are very similar to those reported by other sources (i.e. GI side effects, etc.) so the information collected by SNAEMS is not controversial or contradicted by other sources. Rhode Island Red 23:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SNAEMS website withdrawn in 2002 

message: This page was getting absurdly long (over 200K) so I've gone ahead and archived it. Also, I saw that some people in this discussion seem to be particularly, erm, articulate, to the point of creating multiple posts that were multiple paragraphs long. May I gently suggest that this may not be the most effective way of communicating?  In my experience, the longer that a post is, the less likely that (most) other people are going to actually read it.  I'd like to encourage everyone in this discussion to work harder on keeping comments brief and focused.  If you have multiple points to cover, then it may be more effective to bring them up in separate sections, rather than trying to cover everything all in one post.  Thanks, Elonka 17:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived

message: ---I started a time ago (friend was selling it) and I had my son use it too. Needless to say, we both had explosive diarrhea. My son was becoming dehydrated because he did not inform me of his episodes. At the time, I thought I had a stomach virus. We stopped taking the juice plus and we both became "well" again. Yes, I did fill out the "research paper" but of course, no response. 216.242.134.146 01:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No longer use Juice Plus 

message: I have come to the conclusion that this article should be removed entirely. It is obviously too controversial a subject to receive objective treatment here. It simply provides a forum for one dedicated Juice Plus detractor of unclear motivation (Rhode Island Red, with no WP interest other than this one article, who would be left with lots of time on his/her hands), and some others who are puzzled by the way the article has become so negatively slanted and who try to redress the balance. And then there are the people for whom the article ostensibly exists: the rest of the English-speaking world! What must they think of Wikipedia? TraceyR 07:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree that the article should be deleted, but if you feel strongly about this, you can submit it for deletion via WP:AFD. --Elonka 18:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: TraceyR needs to stop making personal attacks on other editors. This is ridiculous. Please stop. 85.71.60.166 14:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove article?

message: Hiya, I've been busy with other projects (like getting the Knights Templar article to Featured status), but decided I'd pop back in here to Juice Plus to see how things are going. I'm glad to see that there's still an effort to keep the article as referenced as possible. However, I'm sorry to see that edit wars are still continuing, that ad hominem attacks are continuing (from both sides) and that some editors (from both sides) seem to be fixated on this article, to the exclusion of any other work on Wikipedia. Really, with the amount of energy that you folks have put into this one page, you could have created a couple dozen other encyclopedia articles by now! I also have to admit concerns that we're again seeing overly-detailed information creeping its way back into the article text. For example, the list of ingredients that is showing up in the Product Description section.  Wasn't that the reason that we set up an infobox, was to get rid of the lists in the text? My recommendation is that this information be removed or merged into the infobox, and that we concentrate on making the article as readable as possible for general readers. --Elonka 17:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka -- I fully agree about the time spent on this and the need (or lack thereof) for a peer review. In my time following this article (more than a year) I am starting to see a trend developing where a JP user or distributor or simply a fan finds the page and starts lodging lots of complaints since the article does not match to either JP marketing materials or match their personal experiences with the product. In any case Rhode Island Red spends an inordinate amount of time defending the page, which ultimately leads to a peer review or senior reviewer who changes the content, but ultimately doesn't satisfy folks who want the article to present JP in a favorable light. I can't imagine how frustrating this must be for RIR. If she stops responding, all of this work will be lost and the page will mirror JP marketing materials. If she keeps responding, her research and other potential Wikipedia entries suffer. The thing that is the most concerning about this whole process is that the long arguments on both sides are moot. The real issue is the general tenor of the article -- and as long as Wikipedia gives a voice to those who will reference their work, the article will always be controversial to JP users/distributors/fans, because there happen to be a large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing. For example, as a Christian I can't stand some of the articles regarding subjects important to my faith, but I realize I can't make wikipedia an advertisement for my faith and that there are many people out there who don't agree with me. I can't spend the time fighting edits in those articles for they ultimately won't change. I don't know the resolution, but there clearly aren't enough folks like RIR out there with subject matter knowledge and a passion (probably stirred by edit wars here more than anything else) to present the truth as they see it. I guess the only solution is for some of the rest of the neutral users to stand up and let RIR take a break -- but frankly and sadly most of us don't care if a product is misleading as long as it is not effecting us. I know I don't care enough to edit frequently on this page. For all of our sake could both sides please take a break and work on other matters -- this article has been peer reviewed, argued over way too much. Tbbooher 01:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tbbooher, I totally respect your wish for everyone to step back for a minute. I feel the same way. Luckily, I'm too busy to get caught up in the daily edit battles. I would like for you to consider what it's like for someone who doesn't agree with RIR though. I don't think RIR is the lone defender of the neutrality of the article as you seem to characterize her. Do you see the kind of references she brings to the table? We get competitor websites and biased article getting more attention than published studies. There aren't a "large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing" but there are a few and RIR has made sure almost everyone of them is well represented. Please don't assume the views opposite to RIR as being imcompatable with a good article. Personally, I would really just like to see a neutral article.
Elonka, I couldn't agree with you more about the preponderance of overdetailed information. I would like to see an infobox too.Citizen Don 05:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Fair enough Citizen Don, I just feel the same way Elonka does regarding the time spent on the article and have seen some POV opinions fought by RIR since I have been watching this page (most were in the past with some JP spokespersons showing up). I must admit, however, that I have not been able to read the recent long edit discussions and haven't read any of the references so I don't know if they are biased or not. Moreover, my research (in math) is not anything close to nutrition. Tbbooher 11:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks.  However, can I please ask that we all work harder to get away from talking about the editors, and stick to discussing the actual article itself? --Elonka 06:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tbbooher: You were very accurate in your assessment of the situation and I appreciate the comments. Rhode Island Red 23:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka: I agree that many of the comments have been very long. Might I suggest, in keeping with your comment, that you avoid using vague heading titles such as "Concerns". It opens the door to long rambling replies. Instead, please use thread titles that refer to specific content issues, as outlined by WP:TPG, which states "It should be clear from the heading which aspect of the article you wish to discuss. Do not write "This article is wrong" but address the specific issue you want to discuss". Thanks. Rhode Island Red 23:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My reply to Elonka's comment about the information under the Product Description heading is as follows. In your previous edit, you created a heading called Product Description; however, you did not carry forward or add any details that would qualify as a description of the product; just the names of the manufacturers and the cost of the product. The section needed to be populated with some information, which I subsequently added. Although you created an infobox that includes a list of ingredients, it only covered one of the products (Garden Blend); however, that product is not meant to be taken alone but rather in combination with Orchard Blend. The most critical question for article readers is the nutritional content provided when the two products are taken as directed. The information that I subsequently added (the RDI for the 6 labeled nutrients provided when Orchard and Garden Blend taken together as directed) is not an ingredient list and it is not duplicative of the information in the infobox. Relevant information has also been provided to indicate that these nutrients in Juice Plus are added post-processing and that they are obtained form outside suppliers. While Juice Plus gummies had been included in the Research section, we had no information in the article on what the gummies contain. In conclusion, the few new lines of information that have been added: (a) do not make the article "less readable" to "general readers" as suggested by Elonka (b) add valuable information that would be of obvious value to readers with an interest in the subject, and (c) the section needed to be populated with some information, which it now contains. If anyone wants to comment on this further, please start a new heading using an appropriate title as per WP:TPG. Rhode Island Red 00:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you, TraceyR. You can only keep telling the truth until someone listens!Citizen Don 02:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerns

message: I have skimmed the site and cannot find the country of origin for the fruits and vegetables that are in Juice Plus as well as where the manufacturing and packaging is actually done.
My elderly aunt has started using Juice Plus - for many of the health benefits listed in the brochures and marketing cd but is interested in knowing this information.  Anyone out there have any info? --Vsniece 17:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The manufacturer does not publicize the source(s) of the produce used in the products. However, at least some (if not all) is purchased pre-processed from third-party suppliers, as outlined by Wise et al. 1996. Wise reported that NAI purchases acerola cherry powder from Schweizerhall Inc. in Piscataway, NJ (a bulk supplier of raw materials and ingredients to the dietary supplement industry), and soy-derived vitamin E powder and Dunalliela salina (algae as a source of beta-carotene) from a chemical company in La Grange, IL called Henkel Corp., which now goes by the name Cognis (http://www.cognis.com). The sources of other ingredients have not been divulged. NAI does not appear to process any of the produce at their facility and it is likely that all of the fruit/vegetable ingredients are purchased pre-processed from other sources and merely encapsulated at the NAI facility. Perhaps this information should be included in the article. Any comments? Rhode Island Red 17:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that it is correct to state that "NAI does not appear to process any of the produce at their facility". In addition to the HQ at San Marcos, there is also a facility at Vista, CA. In view of the fact that the juicing and dehydration processes are a jealously guarded commercial secret, it would seem unlikely that these processes would be sub-contracted to other companies. These issues would need to be clarified and verified before any change to the article would be warranted - supposition just isn't sufficient. TraceyR 19:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is apparently correct unless there is evidence to the contrary. I am unaware of any evidence that the “juicing and dehydration processes are a jealously guarded commercial secret”. If this is a jealously guarded secret, it would not be guarded by NAI but by Schweizerhall Inc. and Cognis Inc., the chemical supply companies from which NAI purchases the pre-processed fruit and vegetable powders used in Juice Plus. It seems that the only secret NAI is jealously guarding is the fact that they buy at least some (if not all) of their fruit and vegetable ingredients as pre-processed extracts from other sources. Rhode Island Red 21:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Wise study is already suspect.  I would be reluctant to add any other information from that study unless it can be shown to have appeared in other secondary sources. --Elonka 22:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which specific information do you think is suspect? Are you suggesting that Wise misreported the source from which NAI purchases the pre-processed fruit and vegetable powders used in Juice Plus? The data from this study is unreliable because it was a poorly designed study and carried out by an executive of the company that manufactures Juice Plus, and this has been noted by secondary sources; however, there is no reason to think that John Wise, the study's lead author, misstated the source from which the ingredients were purchased. In any case, this is a moot point because no new text has been proposed or added and further debate is unnecessary. Rhode Island Red 00:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Country of origin and place of manufacturing and packaging  

message: Per discussions above, I removed the following section from the article as excessively detailed.  
According to information on the product labels, the suggested daily 4-capsule Juice Plus regimen provides the following nutrients (in % Reference Daily Intake with corresponding amounts in parentheses): folate 105% (420 µg), vitamin C 390% (234 mg), vitamin E 150% (45 IU), beta-carotene 250% (7.5 mg), calcium 6% (61 mg), and iron 4% (0.72 mg). These nutrients are purchased from third-party suppliers and added as fortifiers to the product's plant powders. According to the manufacturer, the additives are used to restore the levels of micronutrients lost during processing and to ensure uniformity.
Juice Plus Gummies, a candy-like supplement for children, were shown to consist of 85% corn syrup and 10% beef gelatin and to contain the following nutrient amounts, based on the recommended daily regimen of 6 gummies (approximate percentage of the adult Reference Daily Intake in parentheses): vitamin C 107.1 mg (179%); vitamin E 82.6 IU (275%); vitamin A 14.8 mg (494%); thiamin 1.39 mg (93%); riboflavin 0.05 mg (3%); niacin 2.51 mg (13%); pyridoxine 0.64 mg (32%); zinc 0.62 mg (4%); magnesium 13.65 mg (3%), calcium 94.5 mg (9%); potassium 58.4 mg (2%); and copper 0.32 mg (16%).
If someone wishes to re-include it as an infobox, that's fine, but it's just cluttering up the main text. --Elonka 22:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka, please do not remove content from the article without adequate discussion. After you had recently raised this issue, I posted a length explanation of the justification for including the information, , to which you never replied. What is the point of opening a discussion if you do not participate and instead just delete the information anyway? It is not proper WP procedure to delete content without sufficient justification. You argument centers around the fact that you find the information to be “clutter” but as I have pointed out, the information is valuable, and to the best of my knowledge there is no WP policy that warrants removal of content solely on the basis of a lone opinion that it is “clutter”. Rhode Island Red 23:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Proper WP procedure is to build consensus.  The consensus was to remove the information, though if you really want it back in the article, it might work in an infobox. Keep in mind WP:NOT#INFO, specifically #9 that Wikipedia is not the proper place for lists of statistics.  Another way to handle it though, might be to put all the ingredient lists at Wikisource, and then we'll add a Wikisource box to this article. --Elonka 23:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No consensus was reached regarding deletion of this specific information. The information is not statistics and is not a mere ingredient list. I responded to your previous comments regarding this information  and you did not reply. It is not proper procedure to delete content that is still under discussion. It may be acceptable, as an alternative, to integrate the information thorugh info boxes or Wikisources but it is not acceptable to merely delete the content. Rhode Island Red 00:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  RIR, aside from yourself, can you please provide any diffs of any editors who wanted that information included? --Elonka 00:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elonka, the procedure is that if you want material to be deleted, you need to provide sufficient justification; so far you have not. I have given justification as to why this material should be included and you did not bother to reply to any of the points I raised. Rhode Island Red 00:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, that's not how it works.  This article went through extensive debate over the last several months, as you know.  Then we came up with a consensus version in February. Any controversial changes to the article from that version, have to achieve consensus on the talkpage before they can go into the article.  It's not a matter of "squatters' rights", where someone can add something and then say, "Okay, I've added it, now you have to get consensus to remove it."  Since February, you made several controversial additions.  We have checked consensus here on the talkpage, and there was not consensus for that information to be added.  So, it stays out of the article unless there is consensus to put it back in. To repeat:  It's not about adding something and then insisting that other people get consensus to remove it, it's about getting consensus before something controversial can be added to the article. If you have other controversial additions, please suggest them here on the talkpage first. --Elonka 00:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Which WP policy dictates that any new content added to an article has to meet with prior approval? WP allows anyone to contribute content without a priori approval, and if there are objections, editors can, with justification, delete the content or voice their objections on the talk page. There is nothing controversial about the information in question. It is all verifiable and was adequately referenced. If you initiate a dialog to question why content has been included (as you did previously), and sufficient justification is provided, then it would be appropriate to respond; you did not do so. You asked for justification and it was provided but you deleted the content anyway. Rhode Island Red 00:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I gotta agree with Elonka on this one. Just reading that paragraph gives me a headache.Citizen Don 02:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I too agree with Elonka. The proposed deletions were announced here; there was no objection and a couple of editors were in agreement. In such cases as the long, detailed list of ingredients, less is more - after all, we do want people to read the article, not be put off by excessive detail.TraceyR 08:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Elonka, clearly we've established consensus here not to include this section. Matthew 20:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Excessive detail