Talk:Antihero

message: My idea of an antihero is a bit different, especially when it comes to concrete examples. In my view an antihero is a main character that is lazy, selfish and hedonistic. It's someone with low moral values and no big ideals. He's to be distinguished from the
*hero: high moral values, unselfish, brave
*unlikely hero: hero from a lower social class
*villain: enemy of a hero, thoroughly evil.
The examples I have in mind are mainly from the 19th Century:
*Julien Sorel in The Red and the Black
*Eugene Onegin
*Pechorin in A Hero of Our Time
*Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment
*Anna Karenina
::Arsene Lupin is an easily cited example, I may be able to find scholarly papers to back me up here. He is certainly an anti-hero in that he was created as a parody or foil to one to the popular hero of the day Sherlock Holmes. But besides that he's only really heroic when he meets someone worse, he steals, lies, and messes with people just because he well feels like it.173.8.113.1 (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Other examples in mind

message: Since the definition already in use seems to be causing so much confusion and disagreement with it, found a definition I would like to add to the main article that I found in the Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary (Bay Books and Oxford University Press (C) 1962 (1983 reprint)) I think it sums up what an anti hero is neatly, while allowing for flexability for the changing on conventions.
Hero of unconventional type in novel etc.
Why this definition?
One of the most common definition states, with minor variations depending on the source, that an anti hero is "a character with few, if any, traditional characteristics or values."
That leaves the door open for villians and other non hero people to be included as antiheroes.
The other main type of definition I have come across is "A protagonist with few, if any, traditional characterists."
This also leaves the door open for villians, and also means that it only refers to one person/ small group of people. That means you can't have an antihero working in the backgrounds as a mysterious figure. You can't have them popping up to help, hinder, and do what they want.
Others try to define why an antihero is different from other heroes, and limit them in that way, so the definition can't include the full range of antiheroes.
I am giving you one month before I add this to the article to present cases why you think it should not be added. Corrupt one 00:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with the definition proposed by Corrupt one ("an unconventional hero") in favour of the previous one ("a fictional character who has some characteristics that are antithetical to those of the traditional hero"). One reason is that Corrupt one is proposing a definition of anti-hero that describes the class of character as a hero; it's important to clearly differentiate between the two concepts rather than simply state that an anti-hero is an unconventional hero, which is vague and misleading. It's better to state, as the older definition does, that a fictional character described as an anti-hero is more than just unconventional, and possesses traits antithetical to those of the traditional hero, not just ones that are unconventional. --TM 19:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I was just thinking that maybe it might be benefitial to combine the two definitions. I still have a problem with using the term hero in the lead since all the definitions I've checked (Penguin dictionary, M. H. Abrams' Glossary of Literary Terms and definitions from dictionary.com) refrain from using the term hero. (Most of those sources define an anti-hero as a main character or protagonist lacking heroic qualities.) Perhaps they could be combined into a lead like this: "An anti-hero has variably come to define an unconventional hero, a protagonist lacking heroic qualities or even one possessing traits antithetical to the traditional hero". This definition is broad enough to cover the range of definitions found elsewhere. --TM 00:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed definition change 

message: I can see only two varibiles in this definition
The first is WHAT is a Hero. For that, I think it would be best to go to the Hero page
What is unconventional?
Does it depend on the culture, the age, the people who make them up, or what? Can an antihero become a conventional hero if that type of unconventional hero is adopted by culture and becomes a conventional type? Can the reverse occure when a culture changes and that type of hero is no longer conventional?
If anyone can find research to help clarify this for the article, I would appreciate it. Corrupt one 00:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with the definition proposed by Corrupt one ("an unconventional hero") in favour of the previous one ("a fictional character who has some characteristics that are antithetical to those of the traditional hero"). One reason is that Corrupt one is proposing a definition of anti-hero that describes the class of character as a hero; it's important to clearly differentiate between the two concepts rather than simply state that an anti-hero is an unconventional hero, which is vague and misleading. It's better to state, as the older definition does, that a fictional character described as an anti-hero is more than just unconventional, and possesses traits antithetical to those of the traditional hero, not just ones that are unconventional. --TM 19:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I was just thinking that maybe it might be benefitial to combine the two definitions. I still have a problem with using the term hero in the lead since all the definitions I've checked (Penguin dictionary, M. H. Abrams' Glossary of Literary Terms and definitions from dictionary.com) refrain from using the term hero. (Most of those sources define an anti-hero as a main character or protagonist lacking heroic qualities.) Perhaps they could be combined into a lead like this: "An anti-hero has variably come to define an unconventional hero, a protagonist lacking heroic qualities or even one possessing traits antithetical to the traditional hero". This definition is broad enough to cover the range of definitions found elsewhere. --TM 00:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Areas for clarification left open

message: I've gone through the article, mostly focusing on the first part in regards to definition. Cleaned that up so it's more presentable in the aspect of showing how the defintion has changed throughtout the years (which was previously mentioned in the beginning of the article).
Decided to remove the "examples" part at the bottom since it listed another 'specific' specific examples and the place to do that was in the body of the article. Am quite familiar with the example of Shinji Ikari and can validify such an example usage. However, Ikari's characteristics are better incorporated as a 'definition' rather than a specific example. Subject can be included in examples but with more detailed perspective.
This is just a cleanup and I have not yet removed the "clean up" notification implicated by Wiki, I leave this up to someone who can validify the actions done here. (Dave 17:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Surely Hannibal Lecter is the ultimate anti-hero? 
He is a 'hero' because he helps with a police investigation in a way only he can using his considerable powers of analysis etc that the police don't have.  He also makes considerable self sacrifice in self-amputating one of his hands so he can be with Clarice.
He is 'anti' because he eats people etc.  
I think this should be put in, by am unsure of how this should be included. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.146.157.138 (talk) 15:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article isn't for listing anti-heroes, that purpose is served by List of fictional anti-heroes where Hannibal Lecter is already included. --TM 17:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hannibal Lecter 

message: It seems that the term "anti-hero" is pejorative and subjective - it presupposes that there is an "authority" who defines heroic, villainous and anti-heroic values, qualities and attributes.
I propose the following:
It is agreed that the Western Christian tradition is dualistic.
Furthermore, the this tradition divides Creation between the Spheres of Good and Evil. (Regardless of how culturally created these spheres are.)
That the Classical Hero exists in the Sphere of Good.  
That the Classical Villain exists in the Sphere of Evil.  
That the anti-hero exists on the shifting borderland between Good & Evil.  (Otherwise known as Liminality.)
That the anti-hero is a Liminal Being.
Therefore I suggest that the Anti-Hero be renamed.
I suggest the neologism:  Limenethos to describe a character who exists in an ethical borderland. (from the Latin "limen"-threshhold, from the Greek "ethos"-moral character.)
As a side note, judging by the etymology of the key words, "Anti-hero", "Hero", "Villain", "Protagonist" and "Antagonist" none of these terms serve a useful descriptive purpose:
"Hero" - from the Greek meaning "demi-god" - does this mean that the Anti-hero is the "against demi-god"?
"Villain" - from the Latin meaning "farmhand"
"Protagonist" - Pro-"in favor of", agonizesthai "to contend for a prize"
"Antagonist" - Anti-"against", agonizesthai "to contend for a prize" (Is Austin Powers a villain because he contends against Dr. Evil's prize of ruling the world?)
Eh?Why? 14:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, 'anti' does not always mean 'against'. It can mean 'the opposite of' or something that's not really an opposite, but backwards or swapped in a way, like a reflection in a mirror.  Antithesis is an example of this.  It's not negative or pejoratives.  Secondly, we do not 'develop new terms' on Wikipedia.  We write articles on terms that already exist.  See WP:NEO. CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 21:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I will try to popularize this. Gortb (talk) 13:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal:  Develop a new term to replace Anti-Hero 

message: The articles don't seem to be clear on this. Although the two are very similar, the difference is not outlined.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.105.64.10 (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference between Byronic hero and anti-hero 

message: McMurphy is a couragous, idealist and has fortitude throughout his adventure of the story. He is proof that you can still be an anti-hero and have those traits. He lives by his own rules and does everything for his own benefits. He uses the patients in order to obtain better fortune for himself  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.102.77.193 (talk) 18:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  McMurphy (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) 

message: How come Wikipedia has listed the Doctor as an anti-hero? What traits make him that and does it really apply to all Doctors?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.128.9 (talk) 22:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's correct. This article mistakes the defintion of a tragic hero with that of an antihero. 208.53.79.39 (talk) 00:18, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  How come this site lists the Doctor (''[[Doctor Who]]'') as an anti-hero

message: I found a few referances to Spider-Man as an archtypical antihero, and I figured I wllet you look at the bits I selected. I put them on the Spiderman talk page. They list WHY he is an antihero, and an archtype of that kind of antihero! Corrupt one (talk) 23:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Spider-Man]] 

message: Slayers' Lina Inverse is deffinately an anti-hero; she always accidently destroys whatever town she was paid to save & recklessly endangers it's citizens, but always saves the day...& then demands a lot of money if no one is chasing her out.
Sam & Max would be anti-villians if they weren't the protagonists. These vigilantes drive recklessly shooting at cars, shoplift, torture rodents, tried to launch missiles at Antartica (& Crypton), break in & enter homes & sieze things without a warrent, make crank calls, tried to sell America to Canada, Max wants to destroy congress, & Max can't tollerate the idea of a world ruled by love & peace.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.236.142 (talk) 21:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slayers & "Sam & Max" 

message: I noticed there was some changes in the article as they could not find any definition of the word Antihero, so they could not mention its change in meaning. This is interesting, since a while back I provided a list of definitions for the word, and provided refferances, using about six or seven dictionaries and encylopedias. I wonder what happened to the list, which allowed up to view the changes of meaning over some time?
Maybe we can call them back and put them in a section all of their own. Corrupt one (talk) 23:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that a villain could go under that definition, if he is the protagonist of the story, since that definition does not make a diference between good and bad, as do the terms heroe and villain. Uberflaven (talk) 14:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's correct. An antihero is often a villain. However, many villians have powerful or heroic qualities, which would disqualify them from being an antihero. Napolean Dynamite is an antihero. He has no heroic qualities and is the protagonist of his story. 208.53.79.39 (talk) 00:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change in meaning 

message: The three largest American dictionaries all spell it as a single word, without hyphen: Merriam-Webster Online; Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1), based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, 2006; and The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, 2000. 
The term is also one word in The New Yorker, in such academic books as Antiheroes: Mexico and Its Detective Novel, Avatars and Antiheroes: A Guide to Contemporary Chinese Artists, and In Praise of Antiheroes: Figures and Themes in Modern European Literature, 1830-1980. --Skippu (talk) 19:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Confirmation of spelling

message: Didn't there used to be an antivillain article?  I can't seem to find it anywhere.  If it was deleted, for what reason.  An anti-villain is different than an anti-hero.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.181.144 (talk) 03:38, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was deleted, here was the discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-villain, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Antivillain. --TM 12:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anti-villain redirects here. I think it's inappropriate to redirect to a page that doesn't mention (or at least in an obvious way connect to) the word you are redirected from. I came across the term "Anti-villain" in a review, and I thought: "Interesting concept! Wonder if it is in common use, and if so, how it is used." Googling, it seems to be "not uncommon", but perhaps still a bit of a fringe thing. I think it would be great if someone could put together a few lines to be included in Antihero (or more lines to make up an independent article), but of course it must be properly sourced, not OR. -- Anyway, if the concept is a fringe thing rather than being used by serious critics and academics, I think it must be because villains with redeeming characterstics are so commonplace that this neologism seems inappropriate to describe them - not because they are rare! Or maybe it is because a satisfying and clear definition making the concept distinct from "antihero" is not as easy as some might think.--Nø (talk) 13:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Where did Antivillain article go?

message: The chaos comics character evil Ernie has been described as an anti-hero. I just want to know if chaos having defined him as an anti-hero (even though he IS also a villain) would change the definition of anti hero here because it seems your definition of anti hero is simnply that an anti hero is a very flawed hero but chaos defines anti hero as something different. So what is an anti hero really? If Evuil Ernie can pass as an anti-hero then your definition of anti hero needs revising. -Anonymous-  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.233.193 (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evil Ernie as anti-hero? 

message: I think he is a hero, not antihero, because he has several redeeming qualities, and reader cheers for him. Can someone confirm? Turidoth (talk) 02:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Holden Caufield]] 

message: I´m sorry if I have missed a point, but one thing seems very strange to me. After all this discussion, the definition on the top of the article says that an antihero has to be a protagonist.
Most of the discussion, opinions and reference definitions here seem to say otherwise.
As Corrupt One says: That means you can't have an antihero working in the backgrounds as a mysterious figure. 
Duckthor (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protagoinst? 

message: This article as completely at variance with the term as I learned it in high school and college and as it is used in literary circles, though it is consistent with the way it is often misused in common parlance. Most of the examples I’ve seen in the article and in this discussion (and I haven’t read the entire discussion page) are examples of Byronic heroes. Most of them have, in fact, many of the qualities associated with heroes, most notably courage, often great competence, intelligence, perseverance and ingenuity. An anti-hero, on the other hand, would be better represented by Woody Allen than by Hannibal Lecter, and by John Updike’s Harry “Rabbit” Angstrom than by Karl Wagner’s Kane. 
This is a serious issue; I believe this article to be so off-base as to misinform those who turn to Wikipedia for such information. No offense.
:Be sure to sign your posts using four tildas (~). Also, if you can come up with some reliable sources that confirm a solid definition of an anti-hero, I for one would welcome the contribution to the article. However, just stating that you heard something in high school and college just isn't enough. --CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 14:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Not Consistent with Current Use of Word “Anti-Hero” 

message: an antihero is a self covered base of human defence someone who acts like they left money in a burning building when its really their lover, detests comic heroes calls them cruel an antihero is by heart not head unlike comic heroes antiheros are not pompous but coragous.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.152.46 (talk) 18:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  antihero 

message: Why is Batman mentioned so frequently in this article?
This article focuses as much on the definition of the word antihero as its history. So why are comic book characters or pulp culture movies referenced almost exclusively?
Can somebody over the age of 17 please update this page?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.45.152.14 (talk) 07:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman? 

message: I have noticed that the "Distinction from unlikely heroes" section seems to focus solely on the distinction between traditional heroes and unlikely heroes. This seems like it could be somewhat misleading. It is not made clear whether or not there is a difference between an unlikely hero and an antihero and what such a difference may be. The reader has to therefore rely upon the other sections to determine whether there is such a difference or not (or they must rely upon their knowledge of how a traditional hero and an antihero differ... that is, if they know how a traditional hero and unlikely hero differ and how a traditional hero and an antihero differ, then they can figure out to a certain extent how an antihero and unlikely hero are different. Of course the problem with this, besides it being a roundabout way of going about things, is that when you complicate things like this (as far as language is concerned) misunderstandings inevitably result, but I must apologize for my digression) since antihero is not being clearly defined in the aforementioned section. I feel it would be better if unlikely heroes and antiheroes were both clearly defined beforehand and then the comparison was made between antiheroes and unlikely heroes, as opposed to the current form where the distinction seems to be between unlikely heroes and traditional heroes. As it stands, I'm somewhat unsure about the relevance of the given section. It's almost as if somebody took this from another page and forgot to edit it so that it would apply to antiheroes. Or perhaps antiheroes and unlikely heroes are one and the same? But if that is the case, then shouldn't the title for the section be "Distinction from traditional heroes"? 
24.47.216.175 (talk) 01:07, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distinction from unlikely heroes? 

message: In lit crit the latter definition is the only one that I can recall being accepted. 
The Clint Eastwood character in the spaghetti westerns is a hero. The one is Unforgiven is an anti-hero. Tirailleur (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion between evil heroes and those who fail to be heroic 

message: The current page describes an antihero as "...a leading character in a film, book, or play..." But other forms of media use anti-heroes as well, including games (Disgaea's Laharl), poems(Childe Harold's Pilgrimage - Lord Macaulay), and comics (Deadpool). We should consider changing this line to "...in a story..." so that all forms of storytelling media can be accounted for. 71.246.13.59 (talk) 18:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antihero definition limits media formats. 

message: antiheroes are typically inferior to the reader in intelligence, dynamism or social purpose -- makes the definition relative to the reader. People of very low intelligence, dynamism or social purpose can be readers. Some minimal intelligence is required to read, but typically the reader is sitting or lying: the typical anti-hero must be exceedingly inert if they are less dynamic than that! And what does it mean to be of inferior "social purpose"? Just because someone said it in a published work doesn't mean that it makes sense or should be included in the lede.
these heroes without naturalness as without identity -- does this refer to heroes or anti-heroes? either way I cannot make sense of it. If it's not about anti-heroes then it shouldn't be there, and if it is then it as best confusing and probably misleading. If anti-heroes are flawed then they are more natural (because natural persons are flawed) and potentially have more distinct identities. 
The lede is confusing and overall the article is thin. There are very few examples -- it mentions several several genres and authors, and a few works but very few characters -- and all are literary. Not a single cinematic, televisual or popular culture reference! Even film noir doesn't get a mention. Here's a definition of anti-hero from that genre, one about three times better than the one in the lede:
The principal protagonist of a film who lacks the attributes or characteristics of a typical hero, but with whom the audience identifies. The character is often confused or conflicted with ambiguous morals, or character defects and eccentricities, and lacks courage, honesty, or grace. The anti-hero can be tough yet sympathetic, or display vulnerable and weak traits. Specifically, the anti-hero often functions outside the mainstream and challenges it.
Qemist (talk) 04:05, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the lede is confusing and does not give a good overview.  It definitely needs to be rewritten.  The content of this article relies (at least source-wise) on (sometimes postmodern) literary criticism, but it gives no context.  It just drops names and terms.  "Naturalness" is an example of this.  It can/should be removed as far as I'm concerned.  If someone wants to dive into some source material, there can certainly be a lit-theory section in the article, but it would require more explanation and context, and should only stand alongside the popular definition (and some popular examples) of "antihero." --MattMauler (talk) 16:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks like some (anti-?) hero has stepped into the breach and fixed the lede. Well done. Now to the empty film examples section that needs to be fixed. Qemist (talk) 00:27, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the Lede intended to mean? 

message: The first sentence is the only sentence explaining what an antihero is, how well could you explain something in just one sentence? The rest of the article just talks about the antihero throughout history. The antihero himself is not described. No one reading the article will be any smarter than before. What is an antihero? Just any bad guy who turns good? --2.245.170.168 (talk) 01:56, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is written very poorly 

message: — Assignment last updated by DarthVetter (talk) 19:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Research and Practice in Wikipedia

message: This article is somewhat confusing as it lacks examples for clarification. Is the use in describing the opposition to a tragic hero a second definition or a use case? Is Batman an antihero because of his backstory or is he a hero because of his selfless motives? The point about an antihero joining the heroic side of a conflict for selfish reasons could use an analogy, especially an example from pop culture. Even a real-life example could work, for example a defense company which caters exclusively to a side commonly considered "good", though it would be very hard to find a non-political example. A good pop culture example would be a movie or video game protagonist who performs typically-selfless actions e.g. "saving the world" in exchange for a reward. Survival is too common, a good example might be requirement with and/or survival of a friend or family member though a favor to win friendship, goodwill, or affection would also work. 22jcampb (talk) 20:29, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article expansion: analogies 

message: I understand this topic (the Antihero) is somewhat subjective, and is subject to all of our biases - which are intensified when we have/feel a personal attachment to characters in literature/film/media. I still think we should add an 'Examples' section with almost-certain examples in Modern Entertainment.
Examples which I faithfully assume we could all agree on would include:
- Sirius Black (Harry Potter), known for attempted murder and being imprisoned, whose drive as a supporter of the protagonist is unclear as to 'pure moral' or simply 'vengeful' motives
- Han Solo (Star Wars), known for stealing and smuggling, whose drive... is unclear as to 'pure moral' or simply 'lustful' motives (wooing Princess Leia)
I encourage your criticism/discussion. Let's make this concept easier for the less-literary to realise. VeraxVoice (talk) 14:57, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples? (Main thread) 

message: I'm not sure why wikipedia is always wrong, but someone please fix this. An "antihero" is not a hero that does good things for reasons that might be different that why the audience would do them. What? 
And antihero is an anti-hero. The opposite of a hero. 
"a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities" according to dictionary.com. 79.106.203.95 (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe you are commenting on the 2nd sentence of the lead, but it seems like you are ignoring the "may", and ingoring the 1st sentence, which seems to be saying exactly what you want. I may have misunderstood, but please clarify. Nø (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong again