Talk:1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight/Archive 5

message: Dear Gentlemen, it this so difficult to try to write an article about this subject. Instead of trying to prove the other side is wrong or instead or finding -by himself- a given view is proven by the other, this problem should be solved in quoting only historians who studied the subject.
And concerning a quote of somebody living at that time it is not difficult : if an historian clearly uses this and consider this relevant of whatever, it can be introduced. If not, it should not be.
All this is a pity. Alithien 11:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  current edit war in the article 

message: The "Causes of the Palestinian exodus" section makes this article very long, but it contains vital information to understanding the past, present, and future of the Palestinian people.  I propose we make it a seperate article.  Does anyone agree? --GHcool 18:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen this happen before in other articles. When important sections are removed editors just start to add the information again and then we have two articles covering much of the same material. --Ian Pitchford 20:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Causes of the Palestinian exodus" should be a seperate article ... ? 

message: The material below appears to have been copied wholesale from one or more web pages in violation of WP:V. Are the editors responsible claiming to have consulted these sources? --Ian Pitchford 21:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is objective wording. All it says is this person said this. It's not a big deal. If you feel you should, unscramble the words. The explanation to King Abdallah's comment is just explaining and very briefly expanding on the lack of Arab nations "coming to their rescue," like the King said. All is all neutral and worded correctly. --Shamir1 00:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just answer the question: Have you consulted these sources in accordance with WP:V? --Ian Pitchford 21:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the editor in question can explain his own behaviour. Your speculation doesn't clarify anything. --Ian Pitchford 16:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's a fact you deleted different materials under this pretext which is not even related to any new material , for example image of a book . Amoruso 08:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've made it clear (with suitable references quoted here an elsewhere) that Katz is not a reliable source and the article certainly doesn't need an image of a non-notable volume by a non-notable non-historian.  --Ian Pitchford 15:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems you have misconceptions about what you made clear. Amoruso 17:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me that Ian has an excellent point, someone has been shovelling the content of web-pages into articles. And I can't see it matters if some Palestinians were ordered to leave by their own leaders. (Particularily when we know that many of those who wished to stay were were beaten from their homes). The claim itself is a piece of propaganda, made by the people who seized the land thus emptied. The encyclopedia would be loath to take seriously excuses made to justify victimisation of other peoples - why are the Palestinians different?  PalestineRemembered 20:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: A leading Palestinian nationalist of the time, Musa Alami, revealed the attitude of the fleeing Arabs:
"The Arabs of Palestine left their homes, were scattered, and lost everything. But there remained one solid hope: The Arab armies were on the eve of their entry into Palestine to save the country and return things to their normal course, punish the aggressor, and throw oppressive Zionism with its dreams and dangers into the sea. On May 14, 1948, crowds of Arabs stood by the roads leading to the frontiers of Palestine, enthusiastically welcoming the advancing armies. Days and weeks passed, sufficient to accomplish the sacred mission, but the Arab armies did not save the country. They did nothing but let slip from their hands Acre, Sarafand, Lydda, Ramleh, Nazareth, most of the south and the rest of the north. Then hope fled (Middle East Journal, October 1949)."
Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951) said: 
"The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down."
One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said: 
"The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."
----------------
:It is objective wording. All it says is this person said this. It's not a big deal. If you feel you should, unscramble the words. The explanation to King Abdallah's comment is just explaining and very briefly expanding on the lack of Arab nations "coming to their rescue," like the King said. All is all neutral and worded correctly. --Shamir1 00:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just answer the question: Have you consulted these sources in accordance with WP:V? --Ian Pitchford 21:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the editor in question can explain his own behaviour. Your speculation doesn't clarify anything. --Ian Pitchford 16:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's a fact you deleted different materials under this pretext which is not even related to any new material , for example image of a book . Amoruso 08:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've made it clear (with suitable references quoted here an elsewhere) that Katz is not a reliable source and the article certainly doesn't need an image of a non-notable volume by a non-notable non-historian.  --Ian Pitchford 15:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems you have misconceptions about what you made clear. Amoruso 17:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me that Ian has an excellent point, someone has been shovelling the content of web-pages into articles. And I can't see it matters if some Palestinians were ordered to leave by their own leaders. (Particularily when we know that many of those who wished to stay were were beaten from their homes). The claim itself is a piece of propaganda, made by the people who seized the land thus emptied. The encyclopedia would be loath to take seriously excuses made to justify victimisation of other peoples - why are the Palestinians different?  PalestineRemembered 20:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Claims by Arabs who fled

message: i removed this from Palestinian exodus#Criticisms of the "endorsement of flight" theory:
:At the time of his writing this, however, the anti-Semitic hysteria of the British Establishment had great impact in Ireland, as well as sympathy for Zionism by the British, who were hostile with the Irish at the time.
it cited http://irelandsown.net/connolly19.html, but this article's footnotes aren't appearing for some reason. 
the page is talking about "the anti-Semitic hysteria of the British Establishment" around the time of the first world war—more than two decades before the exodus, and nearly four decades before the time that childers wrote (early 1960s). the particular erskine childers who is quoted here was not, in fact, alive at the time—the two who are mentioned are his father and grandfather. "sympathy for zionism by the British", and zionism period, are not even discussed in the cited source. furthermore, the text about relations between great britain and ireland might be relevant in discussions of writings from the 1910s and 1920s, but childers wrote on the palestinian exodus in the 1960s. i'd say "find a better source for this text", but i sincerely doubt one exists. 67.68.213.214 04:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  bogus reference for bogus text