Talk:Canonical hours

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—Yamara ✉ 04:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Time/Assessment|WikiProject Time assessment rating]] comment 

message: See Talk:Liturgy of the hours for comment. I have difficulty understanding the above remark that "Canonical Hours is conceptually subordinate to Liturgy of the Hours"; the Liturgy was developed to sanctify the time, not the other way around. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Liturgy of the Hours article needs to be deleted or seriously reduced. If deleted, it should re-direct here. If reduced, it should restrict itself to the 1970 prayer book and its subsequent tweaks. Marcusscotus is right; Liturgy of the Hours is a neologism. The fact that Liturgy of the Hours largely duplicates this article, the main one, reflects poorly on that article, not this one. Rwflammang (talk) 16:32, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: A question:  Why is there a consistent removal of Fish Eaters (note: I have no dog in this fight, don't know them, and know very little about them).
But it seems like a legitimate, rather interesting site.  I assume this decision was made some time ago.  What was the reasoning? Carlo 22:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: see User:JzG/Fisheaters. Just zis Guy you know? 22:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fish Eaters

message: Misha, two points. 
I understand what you're trying to do, but the common usage in English is 'Octoechos' or even 'Eight Tones', not 'Oktoechos'. 'Oktoechos' is a direct transliteration of the Greek, and if we're going to use that, we might as well end up using 'Oktoikh' or even 'Osmoglasnik'. Not to mention 'Pentekostarion', 'Eukhologion', 'Heirmologion', Besides, an article already exists at 'Octoechos'. Let's stick to English usage.
Next, the Eastern Catholic equivalent to the Eastern Orthodox Churches are the 'Greek-Catholic Churches', not just the 'Eastern Catholic Churches' in general, which also refers to the Coptic/Armenian/Syrian Catholics too. 'Greek-Catholic' is the precise term. Also, the name of the article has been changed from 'Eastern Rite Catholic Churches' to 'Eastern Catholic Churches', so please stop linking to the former. InfernoXV 09:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: InfernoXV, I apologize. You see, I don't read Greek; I've seen both forms used in English translations, and didn't know there was a standarized acceptable form. I have no agenda in this, so if Octoechos is more acceptable that is fine with me. Thanks also for the heads-up on the correct article for linking. MishaPan 18:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a general guide, I think Greek word-elements that are commonly borrowed into English look more natural if we retain their usual Greek spellings. Thus "Pentecostarion" since we use "Pentecost" in English; "Octoechos" since we use both "octo-" and "echo", etc. This will most often turn out to be the most common English usage. Contra this, it seems to me (Kovalchuk notwithstanding) that "Typikon" has evolved to be used at least as often as "Typicon" if not moreso, at least among people who care about such things, even though the "Typical Psalms" are more often so spelled when it should be cognate. Go figure. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Typical is not a  Greek formation, as the ending will show; it's English and Latin, from Greek; as such it should always have c. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Octoechos vs Oktoekhos (and others) 

message: I've added some info about Oriental Orthodox services, based mostly on what I could research on the Internet. Anyone who is more knowledgable should look these entries over to correct my mistakes. The West Syrian entry especially needs more work.
Question: Do all Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Armenian, etc.) observe the same lesser fasts as the East Syrians? MishaPan 01:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Oriental Orthodox

message: "Canonical hours" seems like an unusual name for the article. I never speak of "praying the Canonical Hours." I always say I am praying the Daily Office or Divine Office. (There have been efforts to redirect Divine Office to Liturgy of the Hours, as if the Roman Catholic version were the only one, but the former page now is a disambiguation between the latter page and this one). The current name seems to fly in the face of Wikipedia best practice with regards to using common nomenclature. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 15:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR (talk) 16:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It has redirected several different places. Any edit after the move means that only admins can move back.
*Oppose I would use canonical hours (horae canonicae) myself; please remember that this article must be useful to readers about two millennia of Christian culture, not just the modern Roman church. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment Erm, yes, that's kind of where I'm going with this. "Daily Office" is a generic term that can refer to the Office of any church (RC, Anglican, Lutheran...). "Canonical hours" is not most the common name for daily prayer in any Christian denomination (your personal word choices aside). It's awkward and obscure and is unlikely to be the first place anyone would look on Wikipedia. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 20:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the first place I would look (unless I wanted one of them in particular, in which case I would look under, say, matins). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Comment Wikipedia is the only place I have encountered the expression. It is not used officially in any church. Compare 47, 100 ghits for "canonical hours" with 260, 000 for "Daily Office." Carolynparrishfan (talk) 13:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't use raw google to decide these matters, it is biased in any number of ways; see WP:Search engines. Compare Google Books, which shows more, and more scholarly, hits for Canonical hours than for Daily Office. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not presenting it as a "discussion-ender;" my point is that "Canonical hours" is not what the average non-scholar calls it. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 18:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it probably is what the average non-scholar calls them, if she discusses them at all. The google hits are largely the listing for services of webpages throughout Christendom, and an assortment of books on the liturgy. A separate article, making the point that this is primarily a Roman and Anglo-Catholic usage, might be warranted. (In fact, looking at the hits suggests that this is overwhelmingly High Church Anglican usage, with a handful of false positives for office supply stores and the like.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it's a denominational difference. Certainly no Anglican I know speaks of "praying the canonical hours." The official name (depending on the Province) is either "the Daily Office," "the Divine Office," or "Daily Prayer." If it is indeed such a difference, this ought to be explained. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 19:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The ECUSA version of the Book of Common Prayer appears to use Divine Office, or Office of the Church, but it is not restricted to the daily offices. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I searched JSTOR and PAO and found many more hits for "canonical hours" than "daily office". If PMA is correct, and we already have a Liturgy of the Hours article specific to Roman practice, then an article about Anglican practice might be worthwhile if it can be done. Srnec (talk) 18:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: That's really disappointing, because I really don't know anyone on God's green earth who calls it that. In the words of Will Ferrell, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Carolynparrishfan (talk) 17:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Try searching for "canonical hours" at JSTOR or PAO if you have access. You will find it used. I think your perspective is just limited in this regard. Do you really know enough Christians of a variety of backgrounds to say definitely what it is called all over God's green earth? Srnec (talk) 04:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I know enough to say that it is not the official name of these prayers in any Christian church. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 13:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which seems to me quite irrelevant. Yet, if PMA is correct about this being an Anglican usage, then an article on the Daily Office (Anglican) or some such thing is certainly welcome. As noted, we do have Liturgy of the Hours for Catholics. Srnec (talk) 23:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Divine Office is what is prayed during the Canonical Hours. The former is "what", the latter is "when".Mannanan51 (talk) 04:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: I made the following corrections:
*Removed the following: "The Five Short Litanies...". These are not part of the Agpeya, but are part of the rite of "raising of incense". (See the discussion on the Agpeya page.)
*The "morning raising of incense" and "evening raising of incense" although they correspond to the "prime" (not midnight) and "vespers" hours of the Agpeya respectively, they are not the same thing. The Agpeya is prayed in private (and in church) by all Copts, whereas the rite of raising of incense is only prayed in the church and must be led by a presbyter. 
*Some changes clarifying the order of the prayers.
Maybe this section should link to the Agpeya page?
The Cake 2 (talk) 18:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agpeya 

message: Not sure what you want to do with Draft:Divine Office, but perhaps some of the content should be moved here.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:42, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draft:Divine Office 

message: As noted above, this page repeats verbatim much of the Liturgy of the Hours article, which has also been noted as "cleaner and better written overall". In order to reduce duplication and distinguish one page from the other, I have trimmed most of the LOTH material with a link to the Main, and left this as a discussion of the practice in various other groups. Manannan67 (talk) 17:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimmed 

message: This is easily able to be folded in. I don't even think it would take up an entire section, just a mention that some separate them by day and night. Jerod Lycett (talk) 05:03, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've merged it as a section, although only with some of it (the rest has gone to other appropriate places on that page).  Klbrain (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge of [[:Diurnal offices]] into [[:Canonical hours]]  

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion