Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/Archive 1

message: There is no baba. He is fraud. He has so many scandals in his life and poloticians use him as a tool. 
Do no belive on this fraud.
Yours true freind.
Sathya Sai Baba is Love.
If you don´t like Sai Baba, please keep the Love.
Testing
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thats a wonderful quote, whoever has written it here (above). As Sri Sathya Sai Baba says there is a need to have capacity to receive Love too. Lets pray to Him that the ignorant over here will soon have the capacity to receive Love from all.
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It has been a couple of weeks since i have suggested certain changes under the title "SOME SUGGESTIONS" in the page but the changes haven't been done. Please update the changes as soon as possible. I did not update the changes as i did not want to interfere with the "objectivity" of the page.
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SOME SUGGESTIONS
1. In External links, please add not just discussion groups where "pornographic and abusive language" are used, but give links to discussion group on Sri Sathya Sai Baba, where discussions on Love, Service and Compassion are done. There are many such discussion groups, am sure you are aware of that. Please add at least some of those into the listings. 
2. Websites of followers are very short as compared to Websites of critics. So you need to update these listings. I can give you a minimum of 50 website URLs if you request them. 
3. References - Links should not be primarily slanted anti-SSB. There should be positive thoughts too in the section, qualitatively and quantitatively.
4. In books for Sai Baba, please give the link to Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust.
5. In the section on Media and government, the selection has only been partial. There are hundreds of articles which are appearing in everyday  newspapers speaking about SSB in an objective angle, yet not slanted and negative. You need to take all those things into consideration. You can go to websites of many of Indian publications and you will get data on the same. Don't just restrict to India Today, who used the whole issue as a marketing issue for their anniversary celebration. SSB on front cover will obviously attract attention.
6. There is a necessity to revamp sections like 'history and origins', 'teachings', 'practices', 'organisations' etc. 
7. Try getting primary data on SSB rather than secondary data. A operations researcher/statistician/scientist/analyst will tell you the importance of primary data as compared to secondary data. So do visit Prasanthi Nilayam. Please don't restrict yourself to: this guy said that, this person said this etc...
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Please talk about what you want to write in the page Sathya Sai Baba. and DO NOT use this page to advertise petitions.
- Kesava 0430 19 Jan 2004 UTC
What should be added is that
1. the Sathya Sai central trust is the largest single recipient of overseas donations in India even though the Sathya Sai Central Trust rarely asks for donations. 
2. there are well documented allegations of sexual abuse of young men by Sathya Sai Baba (SSB). That his alleged homosexuality is in contradiction with his claim to be pure and his teaching about chastity
3. there is good reason to believe that the birth date of 23 november 1926 is a fabrication. According to his school register he was born in 1929. Ex-followers of SSB accuse him of having changed the date to match a prediction by the Indian guru Aurobindo. 
4. SSB is a hermaphrodite if we may believe various independent testimonies or performs a trick to make young men and boys to believe that he can change himself into a woman
5. the PM Vajpahee is a follower of SSB
6. the president of India Abdul Kalam visited Sathya Sai Baba's main ashram
7. there has been a documentary called 'Seduced by Sai Baba' on Danish TV which showed young men who claimed that they had been sexually abused by Sathya Sai Baba. 
8. SSB's extraordinary claims of omnipotence and omniscience have been proven to be untrue by the skeptic Dale Beyerstein.
9. SSB claims to be a purna avatar like Krishna
10. the scholar Brian Steel and ex-follower found out that the original Telegu discourses were heavily edited. 
11. even some ex-follower can't find a rational explanation for the miracles that they have experienced when they were a follower. Some ex-followers refuse to retract the miracles that they claim to have experienced. 
12. quite a lot of people defected from the organization after ex-follower David Bailey published his Findings.
13. SSB assertions about magnetism shows huge discprepancies with generally accepted scientific knowledge about this subject
14. it has been proven that SSB sometimes uses sleight of hand for his materializations. Not only in the movies online but it has also been seen by so many people. The word credible in the article is too weak.
15. SSB wants his followers not to use the internet. Ex-followers and critical outsiders see this as SSB's way keep his followers. Followers see this as a good protection against the poison of calumny.
16. SSB's teaching are an eclectic mixture from Hinduism
17. The US government has issued a travel warning against SSB, in the section crime in Andhra Pradesh
18. ex-followers accuse him to be a dangerous quack
19. in contradiction to the current article (24 Jan 2004) the size of the contributions of the Sathya Sai Central Trust to the water project in Andhra Pradesh are disputed. 
Andries
24 Jan 2004
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Andries, can you please use the "Show Preview" button. You have already made 19 saves in 1 hour. I've messaged you at User_talk:Andries. Jay 11:10, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: *Sathya Sai organization (indulal Shah?)
*Murders investigation, shot by the police after they had been tied?
*darshan daily
*Educare (fomerly called Education in Human Values)
* Not possible to discuss it with in the SSO, examples Matthijs van der Meer, Ella Evers, Serguei Badaev, Barry Pittar, Terry Gallagher etc. 
*Sathya Sai speaks http://www.sssct.org/Discourses/Speaks/Pages/Main.htm
* Paul Holbach: Allegation, Hypocritical invitation for investigation of authenticity because the setting of the ashram is such that real investigation is not possible. 
Andries 23:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Still to do by Andries

message: I once read in an article where the details of Satya Sai's future incarnation are mentioned - his name, the state and town/village where he will be born and the time. Can this information be included in the article. Jay 05:54, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There is only anecdotal evidence for the future birth date & place of Prema Sai Baba, from private interviews, not from public discourses   & . I will include it though because the story is popular among followers. Andries 11:27, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added it on the page about Prema Sai Baba. Andries 14:49, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Prophecy, Incarnations, Prema Sai Baba

message: Alteripse, I reverted your edit on the place of birth and date because only the date is disputed, not the place. Your other edits were very good. 
Thanks. Andries 15:55, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The number of followers has substiantally fallen down in countries like the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden. With regards to the Netherlands it is my own observation and could also be read in the Newspaper Trouw. There is only one group left in Sweden. There used to be several. With regards to Norway, I read it on Robert Priddy's website. Andries 19:19, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: To Alteripse, Birth place and date revert

message: I think that Beyerstein proved in his extensive study that SSB is not omniscient and omnipotent. I will remove the adverb supposedly. That is a weasel term and against the policy of wikipedia Andries 11:01, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Dale Beyerstein's study

message: When did Michael Goldstein succeed Indulal Shah as head of the international Sathya Sai Organisation? I thought that Goldstein was the head of the American SSO. Thanks in advance. Andries 14:49, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael Goldstein or Indulal Shah?

message: I removed your Kirlian statement because I have never seen a Kirlian photo of SSB. I didn't know whether I should believe it. I had heard about Baranowski and a friend had seen a video about him with regards to SSB. In what book have you seen it? Can I find it on the internet? By the way Kirlian photography is not scientific. Andries 20:38, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Kirlian photos

message: By the way, according to the rules of wikipedia the book list should be in alphabetic order of the surname of the author. Andries 21:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The book list should be on alphabetic order

message: Could you explain what your purpose is in frequently removing my contributions? (I grant that you have left some of them in place.) 
:Because I didn't find them all good. And besides you also removed some of my contributions, like the references that took me so much time to find and to maintain them. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Pachiaaamos, the reason why I moved and changed (not removed) your paragraph about Baranowski was that I found the statement about the Kirlian photos doubtful. I didn't doubt that Baranowski testified as you wrote about Baba's aura. So if you can provide a reference for your statement e.g. book with page number on which the Baranowski's Kirlian photo of Baba can be found then I have no problem at all. In other words, where is the picture? The subject is controversial and very complex and there is, I believe, a lot of disinformation so that is why the references are important. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I am sorry but SSB is simply controversial. Please do add more positive websites if you want. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

text: I hope so. Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Perhaps those gentlemen have molested fewer children? I assure you no one is unnecessarilly presenting contentious information, but rather providing what facts the resources allow. As for your other concerns, Kirlian photo's are at the fringes of science, accepted by some for spiritual purposes, and not by others, and if you express this clearly I think you should have little trouble w legitimate additions. Sam Spade 14:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  to Andries 

message: Is there anyone else here who cares what is said about Sai Baba or is this just a 2 person dialog?
User:Pachiaammos 12 May 2004
:Do you mean what is said about Sai Baba in the article or on the talk page ? Jay 13:55, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The short, simple, and accurate answer is yes. Sam Spade 14:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

text: The object here is to present neutral information with respect for the facts. If we succeed then I think people will read the article Andries 18:31, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Yes, certainly! If you're good at the subject, pls go ahead and contribute. Every article on wikipedia needs improvement. I'm not a devotee of Sathya Sai, and am not for or against him, so I'll be pretty neutral with your edits. I'm happy with Andries neutrality, but its always good to listen to another (neutral) point of view! Jay 17:13, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  to others 

message: *Insists on slandering the critics of Sathya Sai Baba e.g. Skeptics "such as Premanand, 'a school drop out", "Tal Brooke who is an evangelical Christian sees himself as a 'false prophet and an 'Antichrist, as predicted in the Bible." "Hari Sampath's website, sathyasaivictims.com went down after a query was turned over to Illinois police regarding a report on an internet message board that Sampath was wanted in India for theft and sexual assault. Since then Sampath's high profile public appearance seems to have evaporated." This user is probably sincere but brainwashed.
*Please block. Andries 06:04, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks for your help. I have been very liberal with undocumented edits on this article but I find these latest edits slanderous and irrelevant. They are ad hominem attack against the critics of SSB that don't belong in a serious article. I don't think that discussion in this case with this person helps to come closer. I know this person from yahoo group sathya sai baba. I will do my best to do tone it down but I am very pessimistic. Andries 21:14, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: I requested [[User:209.240.205.63]] to be blocked because of vandalism

message: I gave the article a disputed warning because of the following untrue sentences. I am too tired to correct the article now. 
:"Glen Meloy has openly an admittedly indulged in fanatic anti-Sathya Sai Baba propagandizing and has been accused of cult-like control of anti-Sai activists. Another critic (Hari Sampath who resorts to conspiracy theories) say that school records revealed several different birth dates for the boy (under his original name Sathyanarayana Raju) and suggest that he invented the 23 November, 1926 day of birth because on 24 November, 1926 the famed Hindu philosopher-mystic Sri Aurobindo said that the Divine had descended on Earth. Hari Sampath's claims are not substantiated, however"
Andries 19:19, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: disputed warning

message: please discuss such large edits on the talk page. Could you also provide sourses for your claims. I do not fell that at the meoment your edits agree with NPOV. Finaly could you explain you deletion of large amounts of aparently good text?Geni 13:03, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: anon editor 61.95.133.8?

message: This wikipedia article is far from "neutral". Someone does not allow anyone to alter it. They provide only way one information with no quality counter sites. This site is a farce.
Hi. You haven't mentioned what makes you believe that. You can always edit an article, in case you find it to be "far from neutral". In case of an "edit war", if you feel that somebody is not allowing you to alter it, you can always request for dispute resolution. Also see Wikipedia:Mediation, Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee.  utcursch 06:25, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)
:I agree that there may be too many critical websites and articles mentioned as external links but the way user:61.95.133.83 edited the article is not according to NPOV guidelines. For example, s/he stated unattributed opinions, mentioned that SSB's alleged birth date was 23 Nov. 1926 as if it were a fact, though SSB's school record says that he was born in 1929. That is totally unacceptable. Andries 07:16, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I will admit failing to see how copying and pasting the article "love" (as the person complaining has done)to this article helps with NPOV (or anything for that matter). About the matter of user:61.95.133.8?'s edits. they involve serious removing of material (which in my judgement results in a POV article) without discussion on the talk page or anywhere else.Geni 10:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Far From Neutral 

message: This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 20:55, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
:Sathya Sai Baba
:Some ex-members like the late Glen Meloy consider the Sathya Sai Organisation that was founded by Sathya Sai Baba a cult. The reason is that these ex-members say that the allegations of sexual abuse carried out by Sathya Sai Baba are correct and the Sathya Sai organization refuses to properly investigate these. Ex-member Robert Priddy who maintains an extensive website about Sathya Sai Baba believes that it is a secretive, autocratic personality cult that has strong cultic characteristics. More than 800 people have signed an internet petition requesting impartial investigation regarding accusations of sexual abuse charges and murder.
:Followers purport Sathya Sai Baba's group is not a cult because it displays atypical characteristics like charity and tolerance towards other beliefs. Also, it does not claim to be the only way to God and truth, encourages a critical assesment of the guru before accepting him, and does not advocate proselytizing. They point out that often cults will expect their adherents to abandon worldly duties and to severe ties with their families, which is something Sathya Sai Baba has explicitly said not to do.
:References:
:*Detailed rebuttal of cult allegation on the website of the international Sathya Sai organisation
:*Netherlands based website of concerned ex-followers
:*Robert Priddy's extensive website, also a lot  about cults in general
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When are the suggested changes (1-7) going to be updated in the discussion page?
:We only agreed about 2-5 and I already sized down the critical weblinks a bit. I'll try to size down the allegation here too. Andries 07:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Purported cult

message: Hii, you all can address me as monkey. 
First suggestion:
We need to document all the service activites undertaken by SSB. 
Is there a need for creating a new subheading for the same in the page? Or can we put it up somewhere else in the page?
Monkey
Thanks for contributing, Monkey. A subheaduing is easy to create. Just type two equal signs on either side of the section title - they'll format it as a section header. See the example above. Note that only the initial word and proper nouns are capitalized. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:07, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
:Just a reminder that the article already states several times that SSB's followers and his organizations are involved in service projects and charity. Andries 12:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Service activities

message: Substituted at 20:01, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment