Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport/Archive 2

message: Bobbacon has recently split the winners table from Grand Prix de Pau off into a separate article called Winners of the Grand Prix de Pau. Which poses some questions:
*Is this necessary/desirable? Admittedly, the Grand Prix de Pau has one of the longer winners lists (but no longer than that of French Grand Prix) but the article itself is not all that big.
*Does it set a precedent?
Perhaps the bit that concerns me most is that the winners for the last 5 years are still listed in the main article, so that information is now in 2 places, which leads to the possibility of the two articles getting out of synch. Thoughts? DH85868993 23:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having even a portion of the winners list in two spots is completely unacceptable. I see no reason to split the article when the main article is so short. Royalbroil 02:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that the article is rather 'stubby' at present, there doesn't seem much point to it. We have done similar things (Williams F1) where the article really is very long. 4u1e 08:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have split it mainly for cosmetic reasons; a user had to scroll down for miles to get to any external links- something I wanted to read as article is only a stub. While some users will be extremely interested in who has won it for the last 80 years, I think the majority will read as far as the first 5 so its is unneccessary to clutter the main article. I think "completely unacceptable" is very strong, but I will leave it up to members of WikiProject Motorsport to decide as I have no knowledge of standards the project has in place. Bobbacon 08:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A note is now in the wikisyntax requesting people not add any other winners and to refer to the main winners article. The see also link has also been made clearer. This will stop any problems until this discussion is closed. Bobbacon 08:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize to Bobbacon that I was too strong in my wording. Having results in two separate places is problematic for the reasons outlined above. There is a valid reason to split an article if it is very long, but that is not the case here. Royalbroil 14:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I think you were about right there, RB. That edit is not the way to improve that article; it in fact achieves the contrary. Readers are likely to be interested in the results, since they constitute the event's history. External links are inconsequential in comparison. Adrian M. H. 16:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my last post, I apologized for saying the biting term "completely unacceptable". I think you took the rest of my comment wrong. My intention was not to change my original objection comment but expanding on it. I consider external links and references to be mere footnotes and relatively inconsequential. Pushing them down after a 60 row table is no problem IMHO. Royalbroil 16:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought you were disagreeing with the change. Is that not the case, then? I felt that you did not need to retract what is not an unfair term, in my opinion. Adrian M. H. 16:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I want the articles to be merged one article which includes the long table - the way it was before the breakout article. Also, I would prefer to be called Royal or Royalbroil, not RB. Who wouldn't want to be called Royal, lol?! It is not a big deal though, and I wasn't offended in any way. RB sounds awkward to me. Royalbroil 17:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Winners of the Grand Prix de Pau]] 

message: Just going through a few the WP:MOTOR assessment crieteria and I was wondering where the TLG drivers would come under,
*Roger Williamson - Won the British F3 championship, a second level series, so should he be at Mid level?
*Tony Brise - Same as Williamson
*Tom Pryce - Perhaps the one I think will be argued that most. With a win at the 1975 Race of Champions, an Unofficial Formula One race, should he be considered "High"?
Anyway, I had a few more, but I would just like to put these guys forward and see where it goes from here. --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 13:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few assessment queries 

message: Just a quick note to those that weren't aware, last week the ban on motorsport in Switzerland was lifted after 52 years. There are quite a few articles that still need to be updated so if you come across one, please update it. For a reference,  this will probably do the job. AlexJ 10:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we assume that hillclimbing will be the most popular choice? :D 4u1e 10:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This site suggests that so far the change has only progressed through the lower house of parliament and still has to get through the upper house, which won't happen before September at the earliest. DH85868993 12:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ... and the Blick article suggests that hillclimbing was never banned in the first place. Pyrope 12:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which presumably means that it was circuit racing, rather than motorsport, which was banned in the first place? Contrary to what we all think we know. 4u1e 16:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it didn't cover hillclimbs as they're timetrials as opposed to racing. AlexJ 17:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It did not cover hillclimbs since there is only one car in an area at a time.  Swiss the 1955 Le Mans disaster was caused by two cars coming into contact, they banned sport where two cars would compete alongside another. The359 17:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Motorsport in Switzerland

message: I recently created a List of family relations in Formula One in my userspace. After discussions with the WikiProject Formula One, the list was moved to a List of family relations in auto racing. With the subsequent expansion of the list comes a problem: when is a racing driver notable enough for inclusion? It's obvious that we shouldn't include every well-meaning local driver. But from which racing "levels" do we include drivers? Formula One, NASCAR, IRL, Le Mans, A1 GP and Champ Car are imo obvious. GP2, Formula 3000, Indy Lights and Formula 3 are also pretty straight-forward. But Formula Renault? Formula Ford? Formula Holden? Kart racing? National formula racing championships in notable countries? Which are notable countries for that matter? AecisBrievenbus 23:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was tempted to add the Suenaga brothers (Masao and Naoto) from D1 Grand Prix, which I left it out, even though drifting is motorsport but not really auto racing, unless you prefer, like some people to call it drift racing. Which for that case, would it be wise to retitle it List of family relations in motorsport or should I leave that out, in case somebody opts to add that in and cause an edit war. Willirennen 22:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I used "auto racing" instead of "motorsport" is that motorsport is currently a redirect to auto racing. AecisBrievenbus 22:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the other hand, I had just had been thinking, motorsport could be used to describe motorcycling sport, aircraft sport or powerboat racing. Would that would make it too big as I know of a few motorcycling families (Roberts, Aoki, Dunlop) and another to consider is spouse (Pat Moss and Erik Carlsson).Willirennen 23:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer calling it motorsport and adding motorcycles, powerboats, and aircraft families. I was gonna point out married racers too - like NASCAR's Patty Moise and Elton Sawyer. As to the notability standard, I suggest the following: If the drivers/racers are notable enough to likely pass notability standards and survive an AfD (Articles for Deletion) nomination, then they should be included. I was unfamiliar with Formula Ford and Formula Holden. After reading the Formula Ford article I say "Notable" for professional Formula Ford national champs and major world contenders (maybe Top 10 in points). It turns out I saw at least one Formula Ford race at Road America! I thought the name sounded familiar. Now I understand why they didn't have a Formula Chevy series race! Also the champions for Formula Holden would be "Notable". I say "Notable" for karting national and world champions, and "Notable" for formula racing champions in ANY country. Royalbroil 02:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that would work. The racecar drivers are roughly in the same ballpark. If we add motorcycles, powerboats and aircraft, the list could become a massive jumble of names. I would suggest creating several parallel lists, such as List of family relations in motorcycle sport, etc. They could be covered by the umbrella List of family relations in racing, which could even cover List of family relations in horse racing. See the list of nationality transfers in sport (e.g. #Athletics and #Chess) for an example. Cows fly kites (Aecis) Rule/Contributions 11:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Per your suggestion, I have created the section #Spouses. Cows fly kites (Aecis) Rule/Contributions 11:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I am having problems with the Sauters which ended up a complete mess when I got involved last night, therefore it had to be hidden, is there anybody who could sort this out please. Willirennen 18:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: What about movers and shakers of auto racing, say the France and the Hulmans, I had to put that on hold when I was beginning to get carried away. Willirennen 22:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. On the one hand they are definitely notable and relevant within auto racing, as would for instance Patrick Head and Flavio Briatore. On the other hand, including them might open up the way to Paul Newman and David Letterman, to name two people who are important in auto racing, but are not primarily notable for it. AecisBrievenbus 22:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Willirennen was suggesting the inclusion of families involved in motorsport administration, such as Bill France Sr & Jr, and the various members of the Hulman family, rather than individuals such as Head, Briatore, Newman and Letterman. DH85868993 14:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of family relations in auto racing 

message: I had a go at using the team infobox for Carlin Motorsport and I was wondering if we should have a Manual of Style for the infobox and if I had done it right and attractively ;-). --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 14:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I have only used it on Trident Racing and Team Rosberg thus far. With Rosberg, I just listed the quantity of titles, but I actually like your approach. Although we might need to leave out the drivers' names, as that could get too squished. Adrian M. H. 15:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, especially when a certain Alan van der Merwe takes up two lines... --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 15:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage of the Team Infobox 

message: What do we think about adding motor racing teams and racecar constructors into the relevant "Motorsport in <Country>" category? Several are already included, but the majority are not. If we think it's a good idea (as I do), then would we prefer to see them included directly into the category, or into subcategories such as "<Country> racecar constructors" and/or "<Country> auto racing teams"? If we go with the subcategories approach, they could tie in with some other existing categories as follows - consider the example of Ligier:
::Category:Motorsport in France
:::Category:French auto racing teams
:::Ligier
:::Category:French racecar constructors
:::Ligier
::Category:Auto racing teams
:::Category:Auto racing teams by country
::::Category:French auto racing teams
::::Ligier
::Category:Racecar constructors
:::Category:Racecar constructors by country
::::Category:French racecar constructors
::::Ligier
Thoughts? DH85868993 15:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second this proposal, but I think we should extend the categorization by one step, by applying :Category:Formula One drivers by constructor teams to all Formula One teams, present and past. :Category:Ligier Formula One drivers would contain e.g. Jacques Laffite, Olivier Panis, Jean-Pierre Jarier, etcetera. To use Michael Schumacher as another example: he could be categorized not just in :Category:Ferrari Formula One drivers, but also in :Category:Jordan Grand Prix Formula One drivers and :Category:Benetton Formula Formula One drivers. Takuma Sato could be categorized in :Category:Jordan Grand Prix Formula One drivers, :Category:British American Racing Formula One drivers and :Category:Super Aguri F1 Formula One drivers. Etcetera. Such a categorization would be akin to the subcategories of :Category:Footballers by club. But looking at the category names, and the subcategories of :Category:Formula One drivers by constructor teams, I think I prefer Category:Formula One drivers for <team>. My suggestion would obviously apply to similar racing classes as well. Cows fly kites (Aecis) Rule/Contributions 16:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Raises hand for third vote in favor.* --Chr.K. 22:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Motorsport in <country>