Talk:German Brazilians

message: According to this article, the Germans first settled in Ilhéus, Bahia, but in the article of Nova Friburgo it say that Nova Friburgo was the first German settlement in Brazil. In Portuguese Wikipedia, it also says that the first settlement was Nova Friburgo. Which one is right?     Lehoiberri (talk) 02:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some also say that São Leopoldo was the first. Actually, you only need to read the dates. Ilhéus was settled in 1818 and Nova Friburgo in 1824.Opinoso (talk) 13:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where did the first German-Brazilians settled? 

message: Why dont this article cite any information about the city of Santa Maria de Jetibá, in Espírito Santo? It's the largest pomeranian community in the world, there are more pomeranian descendants in this city than in Pomerode, in Santa Catarina. Althoug the percentages are smaller, people with pomeranian ancestry in Pomerode are 80% while in Santa Maria, they are 60%, because there also lives italian-brazilians, and immigrants from the northeastern region of the country, most of them from Bahia, the most afro brazilian state. But still Santa Maria has a large population and it has more unmixed pomeranian descendant people than Pomerode.--Martinense (talk) 17:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Santa Maria de Jetibá 

message: There's an IP claiming people from Tyrol are Germans. Tyrol (state) is an state of Austria and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is a region of Italy. Those Austrians who settled Treze Tílias came from the Austrians state, because German Tyrol did not exist. They are not connected to Germany anymore. They're Austrians. Opinoso (talk) 16:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you the IP user? Because I started this discussion to solve this problem with the one who was including Austrians as Germans. Moreover, assume good-faith and stop cheking my "last edits" posting unnecessary comments when you have nothing to do with this discussion. Remembers that following other users' edit is vandalism, and I noticed you are a Single Porpose Accounts enterely dedicated to the articles I recently edited. Be carefull. This kind of vandalism, you may be blocked once again. Opinoso (talk) 17:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't waste my time reading your out of place comments. With some many article at Wikipedia, you only appear at the same article I have recently edit. You are obviously following my edits. I'm contacting an administrator to resolve it. Opinoso (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If an information in this article may be wrong, it does not allow you to include a new wrong information. These people from Treze Tílias came from Austria. I know people from this town, and they see themvelses as Austrians. They have nothing to do with German Brazilians.
You have to bring a source claiming these people from Austrian Tyrol are Germans. And stop reverting. If Austria is listed, it's probably referring to those earlier immigrants, who were not completly identified with a German state, so people who came from Austrian were integrated in other German-speaking communities. However, Treze Tílias was settled in the 1930, many decades after the formation of the German and Austrian states. Then, stop confusing the dates and their ethnic view. Opinoso (talk) 00:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Clearly again, you are flip-flopping. If you say Austrians are not Germans, THEN REMOVE AUSTRIA FROM THE ARTICLE INSTEAD OF MAKING UP STUFF! Stop the flip-flopping! First, you said that there are are people who speak German but not Austrian in Austria, now you claim its the earlier immigrants. You are full of it. 99.179.173.225 (talk) 23:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Tyrol

message: Sorry, but an information such as "Germans had established the first middle-class population of Brazil, in a country divided between slaves and their masters" absolutely needs to be sourced. Who said such thing? Ninguém (talk) 03:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources said. Not the "first middle class", but the first permanent middle class:
"Introduziu também outras grandes modificações. Até aquele momento, a classe média brasileira era insignificante e se concentrava nas cidades. Os colonos alemães acabaram formando uma classe de pequenos proprietários e artesãos livres em uma sociedade dividida entre senhores e escravos".
"Esta, por sinal, foi a característica da imigração alemã, que, desse modo contribuiu para a constituição de uma classe média urbana e rural no país."
"Alemães ajudaram a formar a classe média paulistana"
To find reliable sources, you only need to google. Do not use Fact Tags before making a resource to know if the information is real or not. Maybe the person only forgot to include the source. Opinoso (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle class 

message: The word "persecution" is not apt to describe what happened to "German Brazilians" in Brazil. They weren't confined to concentration camps; they weren't expelled from the country; they weren't killed or jailed; their civil rights were not taken or suspended.
Only their language was forbidden - and then, only the public use of it, such as in schools or press. This  may be awful, morally wrong, politically incorrect, etc. But "persecution" it is not. The correct word here is "Discrimination". Ninguém (talk) 03:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources? Or more personal theories? Opinoso (talk) 15:19, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

text: You might also like to take a reading of German American: though certainly the treatment of American citizens of German ancestry was much harsher than that of "German Brazilians", the article in no moment talks about "persecution", or even "discrimination". The use of this word seems not neutral. Ninguém (talk) 03:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persecution vs Discrimination 

message: I am placing fact tags about three different bits of information in the article:
1. That all manifestations of German culture were forbidden. Seems unlikely. Schumann or Brahms were forbidden? Hegel? Pretzels? If this is true, it absolutely must be sourced, because it is an extraordinary claim; else, it should be removed.
2. That houses built according to German architectural traditions were demolished. Where? By whom? Were the proprietors indemnified? Seems extremely unlikely, is an extraordinary claim, and must be convincingly sourced or removed.
3. That there were arrests motivated by the use of foreign languages. Unlike the others, this seems quite likely, especially during the time around declaration of war, when the sinking of Brazilian merchant ships exacerbated anti-German sentiments. But it needs to be sourced and explained, especially regarding what happened to people arrested due to this. Were they prosecuted? Jailed without due process? Sent back home? Ninguém (talk) 03:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed the first two. Later I'm going to try to find sources for the third one. Ninguém (talk) 03:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact tags 

message: This sentence, to the end of the "Persecution" section, seems incomprehensible:
The Brazilian education system is set by the failure to deal with students who do not speak Portuguese, who are often ridiculed and segregated.
I have searched the reference to see if I could find what could have been its origin, but couldn't find anything. If I could reasonably guess what it means, I would correct it, but I honestly can't. So, if somebody can figure out what it means, please correct it. If no one can, I am proposing to take it out, and volunteering to do it. Ninguém (talk) 03:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Rewritten. Hope this is acceptable. Ninguém (talk) 03:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomprehensible sentence 

message: I have found the original source for the bit about the "decree" by Santa Maria do Herval's mayor: .
It doesn't mention any decree: apparently, there was a verbal orientation to the municipality's teachers, to keep elementary students who expressed themselves during class in Hunsruekisch to teach them Portuguese during breaktime. Probably not the best idea, even if vehemently supported by part of the community of German descent. Far from constituting anything remotely similar to "persecution", though. Ninguém (talk) 03:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Santa Maria do Herval 

message: I have protected the article for one week. I'll soon have more to say about this. 
I shall take a particularly dim view of any potentially controversial edit to an article on any ethnic group in Brazil (or any other closely related matter) as long as this article is protected. -- Hoary (talk) 00:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: Ninguém (alone) is free to edit the following (and to do so as radically as he wishes). Anyone is free to discuss it below, with an eye to helping Ninguém make it as good as possible.
In April, Vargas forbade any political activity by foreigners; in May, the Integralists attempted a coup against Vargas, which further complicated the relations between Brazil and GermanyRahmeier, Andrea Helena Petry. "Alemanha e Brasil: as relações diplomáticas em 1938" (22 kB PDF file), Vestígios do passado a história e suas fontes. paper presented to the IX Encontro Estadual de História in Rio Grande do Sul. Up to this moment, however, no actions were taken against cultural, religious or sports associations. Measures were intensified in 1939, when the public use of foreign languages was forbidden, including in elementary schools and religious ceremonies (About half of Lutheran ministers of the Sínodo Riograndense were members of the Nazi party.Gertz, René. O Estado Novo no Rio Grande do Sul (Passo Fundo: EdiUPF, 2005); as summarized by Mario Maestri, "A inesperada reabilitação de Getúlio Vargas", Revista Espaço Acadêmico, no. 62 (July 2006; also available here).). The cultural associations had to stop promoting foreign cultures. In 1942, when Brazil entered World War II, further restrictions took place, and their enforcement was made more strict. No effort was made to suppress the Lutheran church; the teaching of foreign languages, including German, continued in high school and collegeBrito, Silvia Helena Andrade de. "A educação no projeto nacionalista do primeiro governo Vargas (1930–1945" (100 kB PDF file), Grupo de Estudos e Pesquisas "História, Sociedade e Educação no Brasil", Faculdade de Educação - UNICAMP. , and these could still be spoken in private. Stores owned by Germans were ransacked by the populace, revolted with the sinking of Brazilian ships by German U-boots; police and army suppressed those riots and ensured, as possible, the integrity of lives and property. Some stores and companies that had German or Italian names, or names that recalled Germany or Italy had their name changed, in fear of further reprisals. However, most companies owned by people of German descent retained their names, as, for instance, Renner and Hering, important corporations in textile industry. An important exception were the airline companies, VARIG, VASP and Sindicato Condor, which were, since 1927, under the partial control of LufthansaSeitenfus, Ricardo. A entrada do Brasil na Segunda Guerra. Porto Alegre, EDIPUCRS, 2000. p. 54-55. Together, those companies covered 75% of the South American territory, allowing Germany to effectively control means of communication and transportation. Besides that, Lufthansa and Lati (the Italian airline company) controlled the totality of flights between Brazil and EuropeIbid., p. 260. According to the gaúcha police, those companies were involved in an espionage schemeIbid, p. 261. Besides that, Lati, which transported Brazilian diplomatic correspondence to Europe, allowed the Italian security services to violate it. In 1940, legislation was passed requiring the pilots to be born in Brazil; in consequence, German and German-born pilots were fired. In Santa Catarina, some companies were subjected to intervention by the State government; Hering was an example. The intervention meant the administration - not the property - of the companies was transferred to a manager loyal to the State Governor (in the particular case of Hering, the imposed administrator was Roberto Grossenbacher, himself a Brazilian of German descent). These facts are related to the struggle for state-level power in Santa Catarina, between its two main oligarchic families, Ramos and Konder-Bornhausen. During the Old Republic (1889-1930), the Konder-Bornhausens aquired political control of the state and its dominating political party, the Partido Republicano Catarinense. The Ramos held their local stronghold, Lajes, and fostered an opposition party, the Partido Liberal Catarinense, which joined the 1930 Revolution that put an end to the Old Republic. As a result, Nereu Ramos was made interventor (unelected governor) of Santa Catarina; the Konder-Bornhausen were expelled from power and actively opposed Vargas' rule. The Ramos weren't above exploiting the German surname of their foes in order to further isolate and marginalise them. http://www.cce.udesc.br/cem/simposioudesc/anais/st4/st4meri.doc
During World War II, the Brazilian Expeditionary Force (FEB) enlisted many Germans and people of German descent to fight alongside the Allied forces.
====Discussion of "Version N"====
:Ninguém, it would be better if you didn't merely strike out material you disagree with that's within the "version D" sandbox. Instead, be bold and erase it. In general, be bold -- as long as you can back up your claims with sources (which you should add in footnotes). Feel free to rewrite it to a point where the original version would be unrecognizable within it. Just lay off "version O" -- other than in making polite and concise comments, but even these would I think be better delayed till you're happy with "version D". -- Hoary (talk) 04:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While you're free to say this here, I think that neither saying it here nor saying in this way is helpful. In "version D", just cite what you believe is worthy of citation. If something you believe does not merit citation is cited in "version O" or the article, say it does not merit citation -- but (coolly, politely) explain why it does not merit citation. (Milan uncritically repeats the assertion famously made by [writer A] that [event B] occurred. This assertion was demonstrated by [writer C] (in [source D]) to be a gross exaggeration of what really happened, namely [event E]. Further, Milan ignores evidence (see e.g. [source F]) that [event G] occurred.) Of course compilation of this kind of thing is tiresome; however, if you really need to discredit a putative source, this is the way to do it. ¶ Incidentally, I put quite a few minutes of my limited lifespan into making the footnotes at least moderately neat and informative. Please do try to do the same with the footnotes that you add; something like: Author, "Article title" (X MB PDF file), name of website. (though of course adjusted according to the particular kind of source). -- Hoary (talk) 00:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I have found the relevant passage in Gertz's book online. It is in an awkward format, but at least it confirms Maestri's quotation of it. I have then changed the reference in the sandbox; I hope this improves the text and its sourcing. Ninguém (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It may have improved the sourcing; but if you really think that Relevant passage can be seen in  is the best way to do this, then I'm about ready to give up. -- Hoary (talk) 02:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, I am going to change it according to your proposal. Just not now, I am in a hurry. Ninguém (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for changing this. But what's Seitenfus's work? If a book, we need the usual publication details. -- Hoary (talk) 23:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Done. I also get those numbers: , 9788574301228. Are they useful? (what are they, after all?) And perhaps it is useful to mention that it was a doctoral thesis, presented to the Universtity of Geneva in 1980? Ninguém (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we using note style or reference style? If the former, "Forename(s) Surname(s)"; if the latter, "Surname(s) comma Forename(s)" -- and consistently, in every such reference. Book titles go in italics. Either one of  and , but not both. They're ISBNs, and in order to see what they are for, just click on the automatically generated link for either. -- Hoary (talk) 01:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Version N

message: :Ninguém, it would be better if you didn't merely strike out material you disagree with that's within the "version D" sandbox. Instead, be bold and erase it. In general, be bold -- as long as you can back up your claims with sources (which you should add in footnotes). Feel free to rewrite it to a point where the original version would be unrecognizable within it. Just lay off "version O" -- other than in making polite and concise comments, but even these would I think be better delayed till you're happy with "version D". -- Hoary (talk) 04:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While you're free to say this here, I think that neither saying it here nor saying in this way is helpful. In "version D", just cite what you believe is worthy of citation. If something you believe does not merit citation is cited in "version O" or the article, say it does not merit citation -- but (coolly, politely) explain why it does not merit citation. (Milan uncritically repeats the assertion famously made by [writer A] that [event B] occurred. This assertion was demonstrated by [writer C] (in [source D]) to be a gross exaggeration of what really happened, namely [event E]. Further, Milan ignores evidence (see e.g. [source F]) that [event G] occurred.) Of course compilation of this kind of thing is tiresome; however, if you really need to discredit a putative source, this is the way to do it. ¶ Incidentally, I put quite a few minutes of my limited lifespan into making the footnotes at least moderately neat and informative. Please do try to do the same with the footnotes that you add; something like: Author, "Article title" (X MB PDF file), name of website. (though of course adjusted according to the particular kind of source). -- Hoary (talk) 00:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I have found the relevant passage in Gertz's book online. It is in an awkward format, but at least it confirms Maestri's quotation of it. I have then changed the reference in the sandbox; I hope this improves the text and its sourcing. Ninguém (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It may have improved the sourcing; but if you really think that Relevant passage can be seen in  is the best way to do this, then I'm about ready to give up. -- Hoary (talk) 02:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, I am going to change it according to your proposal. Just not now, I am in a hurry. Ninguém (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for changing this. But what's Seitenfus's work? If a book, we need the usual publication details. -- Hoary (talk) 23:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Done. I also get those numbers: , 9788574301228. Are they useful? (what are they, after all?) And perhaps it is useful to mention that it was a doctoral thesis, presented to the Universtity of Geneva in 1980? Ninguém (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we using note style or reference style? If the former, "Forename(s) Surname(s)"; if the latter, "Surname(s) comma Forename(s)" -- and consistently, in every such reference. Book titles go in italics. Either one of  and , but not both. They're ISBNs, and in order to see what they are for, just click on the automatically generated link for either. -- Hoary (talk) 01:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion of "Version N"

message: This is to Opinoso, the vandal who has managed to control Brazilian related subejcts at wikipedia, with his heavy bias, at the expense of Brazilians who are those who have THE RIGHT to tell who they are.
Opinoso,
Your lack of respect for Brazilians, your totalitarian tactics to control Brazilian subjects at wikipedia and your LIES have compelled me to let this message to you.
1. You are a LIAR. You are NOT Brazilian, nor you have Italian or African ancestry from Brazil, f.e 2. You project American Racialism at Brazilian topics, which is wrong. Brazil is not Africa or Europe, Brazil is Brazil, and Brazilians are Brazilians. Stop posting foreign scholars (like Telles), who are totally biased, just like you. The US is only 65% non hispanic "white", and the majority of these have non European ancestors (be it from Pocahontas or Creoles from Louisiana, among others). 3. José Mindlin and Clarice Lispector are Ukrainian Jews not ethnic Ukrainians. 4. "Caboclos" are not "Afro Brazilians". 5. There is no "white" man or "western" world. These are social constructs. Everybody is related, according to the newest genetic studies. I can show you at public databases plenty of Jews (even Rothschilds) who have "African" mitocondrial DNA (and also paternal haplogroup). 6. Brazilians and Latin Americans in general, NOT YOU, are those who have the right to define themselves. 7. There are tons of Brazilian of "Teutonic"/"Germanic" ancestry. I can trace my ancestry back to King Alfred several times. Your attempts to downplay it are as ridiculous as your jokes about the "English" spoken by Brazilians. I bet you don't speak as many languages as I do.
Brazilians who read this, ACHTUNG, wake up, There is someone heavily biased controlling English wikipedia and Latin American topics. He may even work for foreign governments or foreign agencies. WielandDerSchmitzFreiheitWarrior WielandDerSchmitzFreiheit (talk)
:If you want to improve the article, improve it. If you want to complain about it, complain about it. If you want to complain about the conduct of another editor, do so elsewhere. -- Hoary (talk) 01:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: PS but before you do any of that, you'll need to make a successful appeal for the unblocking of your earlier ID, "User:AfroLusoTupiBrazilianNationalist", and you'll have to use that ID. -- Hoary (talk) 13:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinoso and his vandalism 

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thread_title: File:Saoleopoldo.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :German Brazilian's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "NYT":
From Secession: The Signs Say Somaliland, but the World Says Somalia
From Supermodel: 
From Linz: 
From Ethnic Germans: Bolivian Reforms Raise Anxiety on Mennonite Frontier, New York Times
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 14:32, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:German Brazilian]] 

message: According to the article, "German Brazilians" make up 12% of the Brazilian population. And 90% are in the Southern Region. Now, the Brazilian population stands at about 190 million people. 12% of 190 million is more than 22 million people. But the Southern region only has some 28 million inhabitants. Is this article saying that more than 75% of the inhabitants of the Southern region are "German Brazilians"? If so, it is mistaken beyond any reckoning. Indeed, the article itself gives very different (and smaller) numbers when it discusses "German Brazilians" in Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, and Paraná. Ninguém (talk) 21:02, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency in numbers 

message: Xuxa and Paula Toller are not German Brazilians. Both are descendents from ethnic Italians from the current province of Trento (formerly Tirolo Meridionale-Welschtirol). Dantadd (talk) 21:58, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Xuxa and Paula Toller 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on German Brazilian. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20121221183002/http://www.rog.com.br/claudiovereza2/mostraconteudos.asp?cod_conteudo=735 to http://www.rog.com.br/claudiovereza2/mostraconteudos.asp?cod_conteudo=735
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120402095437/http://www.ipol.org.br/imprimir.php?cod=604 to http://www.ipol.org.br/imprimir.php?cod=604
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replies: text: Confirmed as correct x 2. Thanks, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:07, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on German Brazilian. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110310052559/http://www.bpb.de:80/wissen/08937231579775312662617270950640,1,0,Auslandsdeutsche.html to http://www.bpb.de/wissen/08937231579775312662617270950640,1,0,Auslandsdeutsche.html#art1
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110930150450/http://www.saofrancisco.edu.br/itatiba/mestrado/educacao/uploadAddress/RegisNegrao%5B10461%5D.pdf to http://www.saofrancisco.edu.br/itatiba/mestrado/educacao/uploadAddress/RegisNegrao%5B10461%5D.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110604203414/http://www.lutheranworld.org/LWF_Documents/LWF-Statistics-2009.pdf to http://www.lutheranworld.org/LWF_Documents/LWF-Statistics-2009.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100323020420/http://www.hojecentrosul.com.br:80/hoje/geral/experi-ncia-dos-campos-concentra-vida-dos-imigrantes-paran to http://www.hojecentrosul.com.br/hoje/geral/experi-ncia-dos-campos-concentra-vida-dos-imigrantes-paran
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120530095532/http://www.leismunicipais.com.br/twitter/222/legislacao/lei-2251-2010-pomerode-sc.html to http://www.leismunicipais.com.br/twitter/222/legislacao/lei-2251-2010-pomerode-sc.html
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 13:34, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Confirmed as correct x 10. Thanks, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:25, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on German Brazilian. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110706155856/http://www.iterpa.pa.gov.br/files/leis/Federal/Agraria_Federal/Legislacao_Agraria_Atual/DEL_1.545-1939.doc to http://www.iterpa.pa.gov.br/files/leis/Federal/Agraria_Federal/Legislacao_Agraria_Atual/DEL_1.545-1939.doc
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110717054052/http://www.espacoacademico.com.br/062/62res_maestri.h to http://www.espacoacademico.com.br/062/62res_maestri.h
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http://web.archive.org/web/20110706155856/http://www.iterpa.pa.gov.br/files/leis/Federal/Agraria_Federal/Legislacao_Agraria_Atual/DEL_1.545-1939.doc
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http://web.archive.org/web/20120327161223/http://www.nehscfortaleza.com/artigos_arquivos/artigo_032.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20151120085427/http://www.guiaresplendor.com.br/noticias/resistencia-cultural
http://web.archive.org/web/20041013002620/http://topicos.net:80/fileadmin/pdf/2004/1/Wir_Deutschbrasilianer.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Brazilian censuses do not ask about German ancestry, however there are many serious Brazilian sources that did found the figure of about 5 million people of German descent, which make clear that the 12 million figure is a gross exaggeration. I've added some of these Brazilian sources to the article, however Iryna Harpy removed them and replaced them by an Middle-Eastern, Al Jazeera source and another non-Brazilian newspaper or by a silly touristic propaganda published in London.
1- The work published in 1999 by Simon Schwartzman. Why is it reliable? Between 1994 and 1998 Schwartzman was president of the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics (IBGE), which is the organ responsable for conducting the Brazilian censuses. His work proves that the 2000 census did not ask about ethnic origin: 
"A Comissão consultiva do Censo do ano 2000 se reuniu no IBGE em Dezembro de 1998, e foi informada dos resultados desta pesquisa. Depois de amplo debate, os membros da Comissão resolveram, por maioria, recomendar ao IBGE que mantivesse no Censo do ano 2000 a pergunta sobre "cor ou raça" tal como ela tem sido aplicada até aqui, e não incluisse uma nova questão sobre origem". ("The Advisory Committee of the Census of 2000 met with IBGE in December 1998, and IBGE was informed of the results of this research. After extensive debate, the Committee members decided, by majority vote, to recommend to the IBGE to maintain in the Census of 2000 the question of "color or race" as it has been applied so far, and not to include a new question about origin").
Why would Simon Schwartzman lie about the census? He made it clear that the 2000 census only asked about "color and race" and not about "origin".
What did Schwartzman found? He interviewd over 30 million Brazilians about their ethnic ancestry and only 3.6% claimed to be of German ancestry. In a population of 200 million Brazilian, that figure would be 7.2 million, not 12 million.
2- The work by Ciro Damke. Why is it reliable? Damke is an important Brazilian linguist who has many published works, including about German language spoken in Brazil. 
What did Damke found: his work cites two German linguists who made a great resource about German speakers in Brazil: in 1986, Born and Dickgiesser estimated at 3 million and 600 thousand the number of German descendants in Brazil. Born is professor doctor [Joachim Born http://www.staff.uni-giessen.de/born/] and Dickgiesser is Sylvia Dickgiesser, both of whom have many works published.
It is impossible for the German-descended population to have grown from 3.6 million in 1986 to 12 million only 14 years latter, in 2000. Between 1991 and 2000, Brazilian population only grew 1.63 per cent and German immigration to Brazil in the 1990s was quite insignificant. The figure of German-descendants would be around 5 million in 2000, which is close to what Schwartzman  found in 1999.
3-In 2004, Deutsche Welle cited the number of 5 million descendants of Germans in Brazil . Why is it reliable? Is comes from a a German newspaper and it is writen in Portuguese for the Brazilian public. The figure of 5 million is nearly the same found by Schwartzman in 1999 and by Joachim Born and Sylvia Dickgiesser in 1986.
4-In the book A Imagem Do Terceiro Reich Na Revista Do Globo. 1933-1945, published by Brazilian historian Maltez Dalmáz, it was estimated that, in the 1930s, there were 1 million Germans and descendants in Brazil. Between 1920 and 2000, Brazilian population grew 5.6 times so, again, in the year 2000 the population of German descent would be around 5 million, not 12 million.
5-In September 2016, the Institute of Applied Economic Research, an organ of the Brazilian government, launched an interesting research that found out that only 3.3% of Brazilians have a Germanic last name (page 18 ). Why is it reliable? It comes from the Brazilian government and it analyzed the names of nearly 47 million Brazilians. The 3.3% figure is nearly the same found by Schwartzman back in 1999 (Schwartzman found 3.6% of Brazilians claiming German ancestry). By the way, having a Germanic last name does not equal to German ancestry, since it can also be Austrian, Swiss, English among others, but since most Germanic immigrants in Brazil were Germans, it give us an idea about the actual size of the German-descended population in Brazil and that it is far from being 12 million. 3.3% in a population of 200 million Brazilians would be 7 million, not 12 million.
:Those are five realiable Brazilian sources about the size of the German-descended population. They all lead to the same figure: around 5 million, a little more or a little less. Not 12 million at all. Xuxo (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Brazilian sources for German ancestry

message: *http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25815796 Xx236 (talk) 06:48, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazis after WWII 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Not to sound racist, but overall, I disagree with the notion of people of Northern European descent coming down to an exotic and not-particularly democratic country like Brazil, especially Germans (having said that, of course, I have no admiration or respect for the Nazis whatsoever and condemn everything they stood for, so I am not coming from that place). So even though people like Gisele Bündchen are actually from Brazil, I like to think of her as a full-fledged German national. Australia and New Zealand (even Argentina to some extent) make sense as places that would attract Germans, but in all honesty, Brazil is somewhat puzzling. Maybe some (or even a  sizable percentage of) German-Brazilians should go back to Angela Merkel's super-successful, democratic Germany, and get away from the violence and corruption that plagues Brazil today.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiscipidier (talk • contribs) 02:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  German? Brazilians 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi, thanks for your comments. Hunsrik is considered as a separate language by Ethnologue, Glottolog and also by the local governments. Some sources:
Ethnologue (ISO): 
* https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/hrx
Language Standardization:
* https://pure.mpg.de/pubman/faces/ViewItemOverviewPage.jsp?itemId=item_407538
* https://lume.ufrgs.br/handle/10183/194384
Official Recognition: 
* http://www.al.rs.gov.br/legis/M010/M0100099.ASP?Hid_Tipo=TEXTO&Hid_TodasNormas=58094&hTexto=&Hid_IDNorma=58094
* https://leismunicipais.com.br/a/rs/s/santa-maria-do-herval/decreto/2009/1/5/decreto-n-5-2009-dispoe-sobre-a-comunicacao-em-hunsrik-nas-escolas-da-rede-municipal-de-ensino-em-santa-maria-do-herval?q=005
* https://www.pmspa.sc.gov.br/noticias/index/ver/codMapaItem/33907/codNoticia/330955
I am going to include them there, thanks for pointing it to me.
Imperadors (talk) 10:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, . I hope you don't mind my having moved this discussion from my talk page. I'll revert if you have any objections. Ultimately, I have only a passing knowledge of Germanic languages. What I do know after years on Wikipedia is that "Ethnologue" has a fairly poor reputation in the linguistic community, whereas "Glottolog" has a much stronger standing. Seeing as you are relatively new to Wikipedia, perhaps you might want to involve yourself in the Ethnic group project, even only if to the extent of your own specific interests. I see you've already been welcomed aboard Wikipedia by our excellent editor, Paine Ellsworth. Follow the links and familiarise yourself with our ideology, don't let yourself be bullied, but try not to be an inadvertent bully yourself; we've all been there when we've been around for too long and feel too confident. Asking is a good thing. Best of all, happy editing! The more the merrier... well, the more, the more intelligent scrutiny of text and quality information for the reader, at the least. If you're not entirely convinced that your sources are good, try out the Neutral point of view noticeboard for community opinions. Happy editing! Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:06, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hunsrik]] Language on [[German Brazilians]] Reply 

message: I don't understand why some of these pages on different communities in Brazil have such exaggerated numbers, avoiding using more official and reputable sources when those show more reasonable figures, and prefer to cite articles that have themselves no sources. For example, this claim that the Brazilian National Census in 2000 counted any amount of people of German descent is absurd, as the Brazilian National Census has not recorded questions on ethnicity or ancestry since 1940. Other information like the "exceptional" fertility of German women also contradict the data and seem to come mostly from anecdotes, as sources show that the group with the highest fertility rate was, unsurprisingly, Brazilian women, not any immigrant group.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:5C70:970E:6D94:BBF9:454B:6B71 (talk) 04:51, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exaggerated numbers 

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