Talk:Massively multiplayer online role-playing game/Archive 3

message: In order to feature the article, perhaps we should set a good goal. I suggest that we get 50 inline citations, and then attempt to be Featured.
This is a good suggestion.  The last FaC cited a number of complaints which appear to have been addressed, but this now seems to be the major issue of concern in the new FaC.  If everyone who is involved in this could find a few items to cite, that would be a great start.  PS: Please sign talk comments.
Tarinth 14:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featuring the Article 

message: I propose removal of these two links from the external links section, and then removal of the "cleanup required" notice on that section of the page.  Remove:
http://www.orpgames.com/  -- contains no notable information not already in Wikipedia and appears to exist only to garner AdSense revenue.
http://mogarmy.net./ -- appears to be a minor site that is mostly a forum with <1000 posts in its history.
Other sites are definitely significant sources of MMORPG information.
Tarinth 18:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link cleanup 

message: Who created the first MUD?  Was it Roy Mercer or Roy Trubshaw?  --Beefnut 18:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Roy Trubshaw and Richard Bartle created the first MUD, if I remember correctly. --[[Caliah 03:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first MUD 

message: History of MMORPGs is a good article, but I don't think it should be a stand alone... Vint 20:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: History Should Stand Alone CMonkey111 22:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just my two cents: I would think an academic or researcher is accustomed to articles of such length or greater. The problem here, I think, isn't that the history needs to be moved to a separate article. The history of the MMORPG is much too important, IMO, for certain crucial facts to be pushed into another page, as it were. In contrast the section on cheating seems a little lengthy to me. It should cover concerns about MMORPGs and not just cheating in particular IMO. {Caliah 21:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have to admit, now that History has been moved back, that I regret moving it away.  I'm still not sure that knowing the history is necessary in order to understand modern MMORPGs, but I do know that the whole section is fascinating and that the article's pretty weak without it.  I agree that someone ought to clean up (shorten and copyedit) the cheating section, and I think that the 4th part of the history section needs that treatment too.  Maybe someone should make a to-do list? --Beefnut 00:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Noted that a lot of the terms in that section have their own articles and definitions already, so I'll give cleaning it up a shot if no-one minds. Though I think it aims to clarify too many points in one go for this article. {{Caliah 05:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: How about a criticisms section? I didn't really see much in the article on those terms. A lot of people have played MMORPGs and came to despise them for various reasons: level grinding, monotony/triviality, no end goal, bugs, imbalances, cheats that have lasting effects to the game, general player behavior, time requirement, etc. -- Anon, April 2006
:I guess some criticisms have their own sections like cheating. As for level grinding and monotony, more info can be found in Everquest. It is probable that these issues are addressed and resolved in other games. As for imbalances and bugs, I guess that wouldn't be addressed in a general way, more like in specific games. virtual crime is also mentioned. As for player behavior and other psychological factors, I don't know any published studies besides the usual anecdotes.--Janarius 13:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms 

message: I would like to know more about the social impact these games have had on society.  I am not too concerned about controversial  isolated incidences, but rather the whole picture of the trends these games have created.  What are the core demographics?  Have these games factored into the social lives of their subscribers?  Unlike consol games, main stream MMORPG’s  require vast amounts of time and commitment.  People have to put aside large chunks of prescheduled time dedicated towards advancement.  This time spent rarely brings real world returns to the average American.  Many western MMORPG players have allocated time away from education, career advancement and society in favor of these games.  However, the Asian market has found a way to capitalize on virtual goods.
There are many political structures created in these games in the form of guilds and alliances.  Many of these officers can be teenagers or college students with little management experience outside the game.  I would like to see some sociological research done on this topic.  I would like to see some numbers and statistics and theories by credible experts, not just media hype.  Message boards for these web sites have also lead to many generalizations and assumptions.  There is currently a big debate between MMORPG’s and whether the “casual gamer” can reasonably advance.  Often, there is little that can be accomplished by randomly logging on, and leaving on the whim.  The MMORPG community has even created new terminology.  For example, “noob” is often used as a derogatory term.  The word “nerf” is often used in reference to an ability that is too powerful and should be made weaker.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dr. Xeal (talk • contribs) 22:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The research you would like to see, if it existed, would definitely be very well represented on this page.  However, I don't think it does (at present) exist, which is understandable when you consider that someone has to pay money for MMORPG research to be carried out.  I do believe that all those statements you made are true, and that there is absolutely potential for very interesting research to be done on several MMORPG-related topics.  It just hasn't been done yet.  My recommendation to you would be to rewrite/expand the Academic Attention section of this article, outlining the various possible directions for fruitful academic MMORPG-related research.  If you do that, then it's much more likely that someone will recognize that kind of research when they see it and then write about it here. --Beefnut 23:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: There is a well known project investigating the social impact of MMORPGS called the Daedalus Project, located at http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/. Also, terms like "noob" and "nerf" were not necessarily created by the MMORPG community. It would be near impossible to determine the origin of these terms, so saying that they originated from the MMORPG community is just complete speculation. In my own gaming experience, the term "noob" was used frequently in old FPS games such as Quake1. I remember first hearing the term "nerf" in Diablo2, but it may have originated elsewhere. --JRavn 19:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: In regards to terms such as noob (or newb) and nerf, I can personally verify that they pre-date the current MMORPG community.  Newb/Noob I have been seeing ever since I got onto MUSH/MUX's back in 1996.  I suspect that it dates back, at least, to BBS's and I may even remember seeing it used in it's full form (newbie) back as far as 1994/95 while playing multi-BBS Barren Realms Elite, an old door game.  Nerf I can personally date back to 1997/98 time frame while on BattleTech MUSH/MUX's.  The term, on the BTech MU*s, was typically used as a synonym for cripple.  The word itself originates from the product line named NERF, which is a line of foam products currently available from Hasbro.  For more information, you can see the Wiki entry on it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf.  I hope this information helps.--ShinoTenshi 13:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social Impact 

message: Hey editors, Habap requested that I post somethin' here to tell y'all why I decided to move the page. I'd checked the talk page, and saw that no discussion was there (didn't check the archives), and decided to move it, using the guidelines at Wikipedia:Use common names. There's no effing way one can argue that Massive(ly) Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game is more common than MMORPG, and hell, I don't even play the damn things. In any event, I was Bold and moved it (check my contribs or my move log for other stuff I've moved; it's become a recent obsession of mine to not have crappy page titles). So yeah, after checking the archives, it appears history is on my side, in that we don't have NASA at National Aeronautics and Space Administration, as much as that's the correct terminology (and, let's be honest here, NASA's a little more professional looking than an article on MMORPG). Awright, I've had my piece, if y'all want to argue with me, feel free; here or at my talk page. Happy editing, Mysekurity [m!] 03:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good name change. I agree that MMORPG is better, ie, used more commonly than the whole-thing drawn out. Kopf1988 20:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change (from Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game) 

message: I've removed this new section, and the links (which just go to some game reviews) because I don't see how Door Games did contribute (if at all) to the genre.  Though I see how these games contained "elements" loosely connected to modern MMORPGs, one could say the same for previous paper or board games.  It's also impossible to believe that these Door Games had significant influence on anything given that "Door Game" doesn't even have its own Wikipedia page.  To the author: if you really believe that this is relevant information, please repost it with citations.  --Beefnut 03:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In regards to door games, there is actually a direct link between door games and browser-based MMORPGs.  Barren Realms Elite, an old door game, was a game that could link more than 250 BBS's together to compete as teams against one another on a BBS vs. BBS basis, or, in some cases, some BBS's joined together in larger alliances.  The largest network ever created for Barren Realms Elite was an international network including BBS's from US, Canada, UK, and Australia at the very least.  At it's prime, this network consisted of more than 150 BBS's and I believe, at one point, it had exceeded the 200 mark.  Even at 150 BBS's, the player base would have exceeded 3500 players.  The person who made Barren Realms Elite then went to create a game called Earth 2025, a browser-based MMORPG that is still active to this day.  Earth 2025 went online December 1996 and was the first browser-based MMORPG to exist.  This information is referenced at http://www.swirve.com/corp/about.asp.  For more information on Barren Realms Elite, you can see it's Wiki reference page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barren_Realms_Elite.  Hope this helps clear up where the connection comes from.--ShinoTenshi 13:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Door Game

message: Uru Live is currently unpublished, and so does not deserve mention in "History", and it has been removed as advertising.  When it is published, it still won't be notable for being noncombat (see A Tale in the Desert), nor for relying on puzzle-solving (see Puzzle Pirates), nor for  featuring a continually-expanding universe (see any MMORPG).  --Beefnut 23:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uru Live currently sort of isn't (see Uru article for details), and in any case would be more a kind of MMOAG ;-) Shinobu 22:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Uru Live

message: Why isn't there a Wiki on this?  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Puffles (talk • contribs) .
: Because Mr. Yee didn't implement it as a Wiki.  Or perhaps you're asking why there isn't a Wikipedia article on it, and that would be because no one has written one yet.  Powers 12:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daedalus Project 

message: Does anybody actually roleplay on MMORPGs, cause I've sure never seen anybody?  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.222.19.134 (talk • contribs) .
: Depending on what MMORPG's you've tried, you're not looking hard enough.  Powers 00:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are role-playing shards/servers, -and- clans on many commercial MMORPGs, including FFXI and WoW. Some games set aside official RP servers while others, like Lineage 2, go so far as to ignore the roleplaying aspect, so players are left to find like-minded people via its community instead. Still, role-playing appears to take a back-seat to PVP and other forms of player interaction. -Caliah 15:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roleplaying? 

message: "Many gamers in China feel the companies that developed MMORPGs purposefully made the leveling progress advance slowly so more money could be made off the gamers."
Having played WoW for a couple of months now, I can attest to that. And the game experience does suffer from it. -- Nils Jeppe 22:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly what is your point here? Perhaps this could be removed from the talk page? -- Sirius81 04:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Private Servers

message: I would like to add a sentence with a link to Multiverse Network, which seems relevant because the company is specifically targeting its offering at independent developers.   The comment in that section said to inquire here first.  Well?
-- -- Rand McKinney 17 August 2006
Thanks for followin' the protocol, but that message is really aimed at new game projects (which are added really just for purposes of advertising).  This information seems more significant and certainly has a place in that section.  --Beefnut 23:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was up in the air about it, as it might prompt us to put references in for every MMORPG company. I'm not sure because it's goal of helping independents does make it different. --Habap 13:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Independent Development

message: I've reverted an essay that was added to the "current trends" section. It was mostly a POV option piece, and I don't see it as salvagable content. --Bob Mellish 17:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current trends 

message: changes made by:
15:59, 7 October 2006 68.117.133.250
on the main article looks like an ad.
:This happens pretty often.  If it doesn't add useful information, revert it. --Beefnut 00:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ad? 

message: I am not sure on the etiquette for modifying a Wiki entry, but I would like to provide some information for how BBS door games made the transition from door game to browser-based MMORPG.  The majority of the information can be found in an entry on this page labelled 'Door Games'.  In short, Barren Realms Elite (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barren_Realms_Elite) was a door game that was capable of linking up to 255 BBS's together as teams.  The creator of BRE went on to create the first browser-based MMORPG, named Earth: 2025.  A Wiki forth Earth: 2025 can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth:_2025.  Another reference source for some of this information is http://www.swirve.com/corp/about.asp.
I wish to respect the author of this article and not go changing it around on them, but feel that the above information would be useful.  If nothing else, the articles states that 'One of the earliest examples of a browser-based MMORPG is Archmage, which dates back to early 1999.'  If nothing else, this information should be updated to include the above reference, as it provides a reference that is more than two years older than the current reference.--ShinoTenshi 13:53, 20 October, 2006 (UTC)
: Please see WP:BOLD.  =)  The worst that can happen is you get reverted.  =)  Powers T 02:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first browser-based MMORPG 

message: I'm not sure that the word link avatar should point to the definition as it refers to the Hindu religion.  Perhaps a disambiguation would be appropriate?  Just a thought...  Patris Magnus 18:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, changed the link to Avatar (icon) as this one seems to be closest to what we mean? -- Sirius81 13:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avatar? 

message: MUD, the original game was commercial charging a fee to play.  This article states differently.  PR Baram 03:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If so, please modify the article on MUD to state that. Currently, it does not indicate that MUD was pay-to-play. --Habap 11:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because the original MUD wasn't acquired by Compuserve and turned pay to play until 1985. Ehheh 17:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History, commercial