Talk:Pak Protector

message: Does anyone else have a problem with the Addendum section where it talks about how life can't exist on Mars and that is why Niven had to kill off the Martians?  Though it is a nice look into Niven's writing process, it has little to do with the actual article and hurts the suspension of disbelief of the internal consistancy of his writings. ZPS102 01:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your assessment.  Although an interesting sidenote, that addendum section simply doesn't fit.  It would perhaps be better placed in the entry on Larry Niven.  --Timholman 16:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addendum 

message: In RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN, Persephone explains that the childless protectors in charge of the colonization mission realized that the bloodline-obsession was a flaw and deliberately bred it out of the crew, replacing it with a devotion to the Ringworld.  Thus later generations of protectors were able to cooperate in building the Ringworld.  Once it was built, and there were no distractions, some sense of rivalry did resurface, but the fights were over the Ringworld and not bloodlines.
Louis also suggests that a protector who was intelligent and civilized before the change (such as Tunesmith) is able to recognize the bloodline-obsession as a flaw and surpress it in himself or herself.
Incidentally, the Protectors seem to me an example of the Selfish Gene theory taken into to extremes -- a species that CONSCIOUSLY promotes the survival of the genes via their descendants.
CharlesTheBold 13:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Ringworld Protectors 

message: :Image:Protector-Niven-cropped.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 23:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Protector-Niven-cropped.jpg

message: :Image:Protector-Niven-cropped.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 22:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Protector-Niven-cropped.jpg

message: :In Niven's writings Brennan and Truesdale are sometimes referred to as Brennan-monster and Truesdale-monster, and the characters have said that they no longer feel entitled to their former names.
I was thinking of adding the above to the article, but I'm not sure if it fits or where to put it. Any ideas? --Kjoonlee 10:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How about a somewhere in, or a subsection of Protector Behaviour. You could discuss the disconnect between the Pak's former selves and present form, the whole "I have no free will... I always see the correct answer" might make some interesting commentary on your proposed phenomenon. I seem to recall Louis Wu and Teela Brown having some thoughts on that matter as well. Perhaps you might want to include them in any additons. For that matter, Vlad (the vampire was Vlad, right?) and Tunesmith had some good musings on the subject themselves. Mstuczynski (talk) 14:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brennan-monster 

message: Hi, there are two stories I know, in the Man-Kzin Wars stories, which deal with Human Protectors.
The author had come up with some of his own ideas, such as saying that a breeder with the cataract genes will get polarization filters in their eyes after the transition to protector. Some of the new ideas aren't as good (IMHO), but I think the cataract thing might be worth including. --Kjoonlee 16:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that since the canonicity of the MKW stories is inconsistent, we should avoid adding anything from a story that isn't explicitly identified as canon by Niven. (Though I agree that the cataract thing is a clever idea. Some of the other MKW ideas are lame-- but even the silly and/or stupid ones (imo, of course) belong in the article if Niven signs off on them.) Wellspring (talk) 20:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of MKW material 

message: The article says that the time frame for a human to become a Protector is "estimated "generously" in Protector at 40-60 years of age".  This is true, but oddly, Brennan (or Brennan-monster) also says "You were too old at fifty; it would have killed you." So, should we mention that too? 128.194.85.61 (talk) 22:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is between the original virus in the root, and the genetically engineered version that Brennan released on Home.  My interpretation is that Tree-of-Life virus, in its natural form, has a very narrow age window for transformation - perhaps a few years at most, as confirmed by Brennan at the beginning of the novel.  When Brennan created his version, he deliberately modified it to transform as wide a range of ages as possible to maximize the size of his army, hence the 40 to 60 year age range as mentioned by Truesdale.  Timholman (talk) 18:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 40 to 60, or not?

message: For those that havent been keeping up with the latest Niven books by Lerner, and the Niven chat itself
Destroyer of Worlds (2010) will focus on the Pak, the invading Pak fleet, Truesdale, the destruction of Home, and the recoloniztion of Home during Sigmund Ausfaller's (second!) life time. What this has to do with the Puppeteer Fleet of Worlds, we'll just have to wait and see.
I recommend the curious to visit the Niven chat the first Saturday of every month, when the man himself is there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.80.228 (talk) 20:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers about Home 

message: One item that's never been dealt with is the gravity module he dropped on Mars. Did ARM tuck it away in a warehouse? Did ARM scientists study it and use that data to quickly produce gravity drive spaceships after news of Angel's Pencil's deadly encounter with the Kzin? Or is it still sitting buried in a Martian desert centuries later? I never have figured out why Phssthpok dropped it, that drastically reduced his ship's ability to change speed.
:It was unburied and studied, and it's mentioned somewhere that scientists were afraid to turn it off, because they didn't understand how to turn it back on again. (Or they were unsure it *could* be turned back on again. Something like that.)
:Do you think this could be merged into the article? --Kjoonlee 05:38, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Phssthpok's gravity module?

message: Re this diff, Niven is entitled to speculate about the characters and events in his own books, just as you or I can. There's nothing wrong with the statement as originally written. The fact that he is the author is irrelevant unless the statement is being made within the story, in which case it is part of the story's central conceit, plot, etc., and not a remark by the writer. kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 01:22, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: These things are quite explicitly stated in Destroyer of Worlds (except for the "crowded" adjective), not just in a "non-canon" comment by Niven. So "speculates" does not fit here at all, but "Niven states" should probably just be removed as well as misleading. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Niven Speculates 

message: Humans who are beyond the metamorphosis window still find the smell of the root irresistible, but die in what appears to be a failed transition.
Didn't Brenan after becoming a protector offer a root to two humans well past the transition window while leaving mars without any problem? They are mildly curious about the smell and taste but suffered no adverse effects (I believe one was even piloting the ship at the time). They didn’t foam at the mouth or freak out like Luis Wu did on the ring world when facing Teela Brown... Was this ever explained, or is it an inconsistency?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkeyhowitzer (talk • contribs) 17:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah they smelled the root but didn't taste it and therefore contract the virus. In Protector, several humans' brains turn off when they smell the root, and one human takes a bite of root and dies. I think what happened is that either Brennan neutralized his "sample" root earlier, knowing he'd need it for a demonstration. Or it's a plot hole. 24.99.56.211 (talk) 03:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or, Louis Wu's reaction to ToL was messed up by him having taken so much Boosterspice. We don't actually know whether he would have died - it may be that his youth is sufficiently physiologically close to natural youth that he would survive just fine. We have no actual examples to go by. — PhilHibbs | talk 09:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tree of life 

message: I propose that Tree-of-Life be merged into Pak Protector. I think Tree-of-Life does not contain any information that should not be included in the corresponding section of Pak Protector, and the Tree-of-Life plant is not relevant to any topics other than Niven's Protectors. Heffalettuce (talk) 00:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger Proposal 

message: *Eliding the part about Tree-of-Life enthralling all Thrint-created species. The Kzinti evolved from the food-yeasts, just as the humans did (c.f. "World of Ptavvs"), and in Ringworld it is established that they don't react to Tree-of-Life.
: wrong... humans came from the core in a Pak colonization attempt. read protector.
::The Pak evolved from food yeast, therefore so did humans.  — PhilHibbs | talk
I'm against merging the article. Tree-of-life is enough of a concept with enough implications for Known Space that it should get its own article.
Wellspring 20:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back matter from merged stub