Talk:Ballet

message: The article says "Ballet is a type of performance dance, that originated in the Italian Renaissance courts of the 15th century, and which was further developed in France and Russia as a concert dance form." I don't know the difference, so I followed the links, which go to the same wikipedia page. Can someone correct this?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.19.193.161 (talk) 16:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Performance or concert ? 

message: The history section here says that ballet developed from fencing but the main History of Ballet page does not say that.  Can the two pages be made to agree?  What is the source for this claim? Ed Avis (talk) 15:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  History - from fencing? 

message: In the Renaissance, the "ballett" (two Ts) often referred to a lively madrigal; the term "madrigal" at the time more commonly referred to slower, more serious pieces of choral music. Of course, the historical spelling was not a differentiating factor in those centuries, but in today's applications (ex. a search of a library catalog) the term "ballett" most likely references choral music, while the term "ballet" most likely references the dance form.
I'm no linguist, so bring on the responses! —The Realms of Gold (talk) 03:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no mention of "ballett" in madrigal (music). Is this mentioned in some other WP article? Can you cite reliable sources that show "ballett" is used this way? Lambtron (talk) 17:07, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maybe "ballett" shouldn't redirect here 

message: I've always assumed Balanchine was Russian but it's possible that he was actually Georgian. Can someone confirm, please? Lambtron (talk) 16:55, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: UPDATE: This question has been answered. From a traditional western viewpoint he was Russian because he was born in Russia, had a Russian mother, and learned and mastered ballet while living in Russia. From the Georgian and Russian perspective, he was Georgian because his father was Georgian. Lambtron (talk) 20:04, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  George Balanchine: Russian or Georgian? 

message: This article says Balanchine style is commonly called "New York City Ballet Method", but NYCB doesn't use that term and the only other places I've seen it used are on the many mirrors and forks of this page. Should this statement be removed? Lambtron (talk) 19:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Remove... it is sufficient, and more accurate to say that the company was founded by Balanchine, therefore his work forms the core of the repertory and the company continues to emulate his style 89.242.132.191 (talk) 00:20, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "New York City Ballet Method" 

message: I've been working long hours on ballet articles and I've returned to a problem that was previously discussed but never resolved. Before elaborating, let me just say that I mean no disrespect to other editors who have worked on related articles, and I am not intending to be critical. My only goal is to improve my understanding, and the usefulness, of these articles. The problem pertains to the definitions of Vaganova method, Cecchetti method, and Bournonville method. Since all three articles have the same issue, I'll focus on Vaganova. The lede says Vaganova method is "a ballet technique and training system", but it's not clear to me what that means. I've thought quite a lot about this and come up with several possible interpretations:
Vaganova method is:
# a ballet training system used to teach ballet technique. A dancer could learn the same technique from any training system.
# a ballet training system used to teach ballet technique that has proprietary (Vaganova-specific) characteristics. A dancer could learn most of the technique from any training system, except for the proprietary characteristics.
# a ballet training system used to teach completely proprietary ballet technique. A dancer would not learn any of the technique from another training system, though a skilled dancer might be able to learn it by herself.
# a ballet training system, and the term can also refer to the (semi-)proprietary ballet technique taught with the training system."
# an inseparable "system" consisting of a ballet training system and the proprietary ballet technique it teaches. It's impossible to independently learn the technique, or even exhibit it when not training, because training and technique are inseparable.
Which of these is correct, or is it something else altogether? Lambtron (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You have brought up this same issue many times before and you still don't seem to understand that it is not that simple to answer and, if you take it upon yourself to decide "this is the correct definition", it may not work in every case. The ballet profession uses words like style, technique, method etc. interchangeably, because of the disparate influences on the art form. What one ballet school may call their 'style', another will refer to as 'technique' for example and the bases for the difference in language are very subtle. It could be due to choreographic style, the curriculum, unique technical specifics of body positioning and alignment and so on.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.132.164 (talk) 02:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the question again — it does address a single case. Consequently, one of the above choices must be a valid paraphrasing of the lede. But which one? Lambtron (talk) 14:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the point, even addressing a single case it depends on who you ask. Some people refer to Vaganova purely as a teaching method and only use it as such, some people consider it a style of ballet, some use elements of Vaganova schooling within their own training system, or try to replicate the aesthetic of Vaganova training without using her class structure etc. You won't get consensus of opinion on this, ballet professionals barely agree on these things. How all the articles are worded is fine, to say ballet technique and/or training method is perfectly acceptable to cover all bases. Balanchine is the only exception as he didn't have a 'codified' training system as such, although proponents of the Balanchine style will still insist that there is a very specific technical progression needed to produce a 'Balanchine dancer'.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.132.164 (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Your point seems to be that it's impossible to paraphrase the lede because there is no consensus on the definition of Vaganova method. Your theory about lack of consensus is plausible, though your examples could also indicate the term simply has multiple definitions. Either way, there's no reason the lede cannot be paraphrased, but any accurate paraphrasing will necessarily involve discussion of this critical issue. Until that happens, the lede is neither clear nor satisfactorily worded. Can you cite RSs that support your theory? That would be very helpful. Lambtron (talk) 20:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't put forward any 'theories' as you put it, I've just commented based on knowledge and experience gleaned from working in the industry. In my opinion, the wording of the relevant articles is perfectly adequate and concise, and there is no need for any paraphrasing. To say X is a ballet technique and training system is correct for the purposes of providing a broad explanation of the topic. There is no need for unnecessary semantics.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.132.164 (talk) 01:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

text: As has been written before: you seem to be the only one perceiving semantic problems that nobody else sees. Maybe your gripes would become clearer if you propose what needs to be changed. Then a concrete alterantive can be discussed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does it mean? 

message: Ballet is a kind of stage play in which the characters only dance.(ref>Busby, Thomas; Arnold, Samuel. BALLET A Dictionary of Music Theoretical and Practical, London, UK: R. Phillips<ref)  They dance with a particular style which includes the female dancers standing on their toes.(ref>Boot and Shoe Recorder: The Great National Shoe Weekly, Volume 79. 1921. Ballet Slippers for Dancing in Schools and Ball Rooms Boston, MA: Boot and Shoe Recorder<ref) The article should explain what ballet is. It's a play with no lines or songs. They dance using a particular style called ballet dancing, in which they wear skin tight clothing twirl around like figure skaters, the females stand on their toes and the men sometime lift the women into the air. Sounding like an expert talking to an expert is not what an encyclopedia is for. As any child knows, ballet is not a kind of dance, and makes me think the article was ocred from a book. Tap dancing is a kind of dance, and ballet dancing is a kind of dance. Is opera a kind of song? No. Therefore, ballet is not a kind of dance. 75.36.33.18 (talk) 17:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what you're saying is that ballet (the subject of this article) involves ballet dancing but that's only one part of it. Maybe. Personally, I distinguish between "the ballet" (what you're describing) and "ballet" (the dance). --NeilN talk to me 17:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think saying “ballet is a type of dance” is pigeon English. I think it's like saying  musical is a type of song. It's a stage play. A ball is a type of dance. A prom is a type of dance. Ballet is a type of dancing, not dance. And, I think it should be described in the opening sentences of the article, but I don’t have the  time or ambition to look for the references, at least today.75.36.33.18 (talk) 18:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is how Britannica defines it, "ballet, theatrical dance in which a formal academic dance technique—the danse d’école—is combined with other artistic elements such as music, costume, and stage scenery. The academic technique itself is also known as ballet." --NeilN talk to me 18:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Using “dance” as a synonym for dancing sounds foreign, jargonistic and pompous to my ear, like sticking French into your conversation when you know the other person doesn’t speak French. Therefore, it needs to be defined as “art of dancing” before being used in the article. Also, there is no description of ballet dancing anywhere in the article. There ought to be such a description because this is an encyclopedia. Also, I do not respect Britannica’s show-off writing style, which forgets what an encyclopedia is for.75.36.33.18 (talk) 05:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note how Wikipedia works: it uses reliable sources to support its articles; Encyclopædia Britannica is such a source. You might also profit from reading Wikt:ballet. By the way, the description you offer is way too narrow: female dancers don't always stand on their toes, and not all ballets are plays. In ballet dancing, skin tight clothing and twirling around is not a defining property. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:52, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ballet is not a type of performance dance 

message: http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/milestones/990317.motm.dance.html
 http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft7v19p1t5&chunk.id=d0e7370&toc.depth=1&brand=ucpress
 http://theatricalmusical.com/history-opera.html
Here are a few sources I cant add them due to editing via a basic kindle fire but hopefully someone else will help-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 09:46, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources about ballets relation to opera 

message: Does opera-ballet belong in the lede? It was common long ago, so perhaps it's better suited to the History section? Lambtron (talk) 19:23, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For the most part I liked the edits on the ballet opera connection except you removed the fact that many operas contain ballet sections. Also it should be noted that most ballets are narattive which is what I was trying to say by calling them theatrical.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 06:34, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

text: Also the connection to opera should be briefly stated. I have provided sources above and will happily list examples of operas with ballet segments in them. I agree the focus is on ballet but you cant ignore the connection. Would you prefer I make a section talking about the connection and list a few examples of ballet companies in opera houses and operas with ballet segments?-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 06:44, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opera-ballet 

message: I recently reverted a pending edit to this page because it changed vital content without citing a source. What I noticed was the passages the user changed didn't have inline citations to begin with. This article has abundant references listed; however, the article should contain more inline citations, particularly in the "History" section and in places where clarification is needed, in order to maintain verifiability. For example, which of the sources listed verifies that "the history of ballet began in the Italian Renaissance courts of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries"? Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 01:13, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a first-pass effort at cleaning this up by fashioning used refs into citations and classifying unused refs as "further reading". I added a cn tag for the passage in question, and agree that more citations are needed. Lambtron (talk) 15:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  More inline citations 

message: I removed Ballet RAD.jpg from ballet because I feel it's not a good visual representation of ballet and is therefore unhelpful to readers. I've done this several times but the editor (who also uploaded the image) has reverted each removal. I've asked the editor to discuss the issue here before placing the image back in the article. Third party opinions about this would be appreciated. Lambtron (talk) 20:43, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with removal. Inappropriate image; nothing to suggest otherwise.--Aquegg (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

text: The image fails to illustrate or explain any meaningful aspect of ballet, contemporary or otherwise, and is therefore inappropriate for the article. As far as I can tell it's a somewhat unclear photo of an unidentified person, probably male, with a sign in the background -- not very useful for enhancing one's understanding of ballet. Lambtron (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed; within the context of the article, the image serves no apparent purpose—the reader is simply left wondering why it is there.—Aquegg (talk) 19:54, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: in hindsight i agree,thank you.Chrome23 (talk) 21:53, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC concerning image "Ballet RAD.jpg" 

message: In general, this is a very well-formed article. Every link I've tried so far is still live, and the article doesn't seem to be editorialized at all. The major change I would suggest is to incorporate "Etymology"—which on its own is merely two sentences and is perhaps not the best candidate by Wikipedia's criteria to be "lead section" for this article—into either "History" or the article header.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by NealAnwar (talk • contribs) 19:38, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intertwine Evaluation 

message: Is it common practice here for new changes to an article to be reviewed this way? In this case several well meaning editors have restored an image with an uncited caption that makes the dubious claim that says a grand jete is a contemporary jump. Hard to believe, but here we are. Contemporary ballet is a very distinctive style with extremely fast, controlled movements with a rapidly shifting center of balance. It's hard to mistake something like Chroma or Forsythe (probably the standard). How can I edit this article if my changes keep being rejected? Please allow the change through, this is extremely frustrating.Karkanxholl (talk) 05:57, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you may be confusing music-history terminology with ballet-history terminology. Have you checked the article Classical ballet?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

text: If you think it works and you have more people (at least 3) supporting you, then go for it. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 14:29, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pending changes 

message: , , ,  I have tried to contact  for more information about current disputed image, but I see nothing in image that shows a contemporary ballet style. This picture could be classical, neoclassical or contemporary ballet. Some steps are non-classical but grand jete photo could be any style. I was able to find high quality image from Forsythe File:Artifact Suite, choreografia William Forsythe, Polski Balet Narodowy, fot. Ewa Krasucka TW-ON.jpg which is well known standard work of contemporary ballet. Is it ok to change image?Karkanxholl (talk) 21:15, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If you think it works and you have more people (at least 3) supporting you, then go for it. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 14:29, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replace image in contemporary section 

message: There is no citation in the lead section. One would be appreciated next to the "France and Russia" origin claim. Since there are two paragraphs in the lead section, a second citation in the second paragraph would be welcome.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sociable Song (talk • contribs) 23:33, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: MOS:LEADCITE applies. If it is cited in the body, then a citation in the lead may not be necessary. Praemonitus (talk) 05:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No citations in the lead section 

message: (ADDITION TO HEALTH EFFECTS ON BALLET)
Mental Health in Ballet.
How this is commonly unspoken topic and very pronounced in the ballet world. Dancers of all ages, techniques, and backgrounds suffer the constant need of approval, body image, and competition that can lead to depression. 
https://www.dancemagazine.com/why-are-we-still-so-bad-at-addressing-dancers-mental-health-2466177083.html?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1
Pointyotoes (talk) 17:35, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2020 

message: The jump in the second picture under the contemporary ballet section, described as "A ballet leap performed with modern, non-classical form in a contemporary ballet" is specifically known as a firebird, named for Sergei Diaghilev's and Igor Stravinsky's ballet of the same name. This jump can be performed in many different capacities including leaps, however, the jump being performed in the picture is being performed in the more classic assemble jump style that is typical of the more classic firebird this is clear from her arched back and relatively vertical angle to the stage. In this case the title leap is a misnomer I suggest changing "leap in the description of the image to "jump". Athenadancedaughter (talk) 02:41, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2021 

message: i looked for health effects of ballet in wikipedia, having some vague ideas of ballet affecting dancers' feet. i wanted to know how it would damage the feet, whether the damage is temporary or permanent, etc., but it seems there's disproportionately little info about this topic, given that millions of or even more people have undergone ballet training. RZuo (talk) 17:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It should also discuss positive health effects such as potential improvements to balance, agility, and range of motion. There have been experiments in the use of ballet exercises for the treatment of Parkinson's. Praemonitus (talk) 05:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  More needed on health effects of ballet 

message: The work of musicians in ballet classes and performances should be referenced in this article. It is a major oversight that the only mention of musicians is in reference to their salaries in comparison with dancers. Throughout history, ballet has been inspired and supported by music and musicians. Below is a suggestion to be added to the opening paragraph. Further down are relevant references.
In the eighteenth century, ballet teachers played the violin for their own lessons. By the end of the nineteenth century, as various branches of the performing arts had been professionalised, this practice had fallen out of fashion. Specialist musicians were brought in to play violin, then piano, and later percussion.
References:
Royal Academy of Dance. 2005. A Dance Class Anthology: The Royal Academy of Dance
Guide to Ballet Class Accompaniment. London: Royal Academy of Dance Enterprises.
Bloomfield, A., and R. Watts. 2008. “Pedagogue of the Dance: The Dancing Master as Educator in the Long Eighteenth Century.” History of Education 37 (4): 605–618. doi:10.1080/ 00467600802085426. Dalcroze.Wiki (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: Two sources have been given, but neither of them have specified what page the infornation exists on.  Spintendo  22:24, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2023 

message: — Assignment last updated by Zmuhl (talk) 22:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Writing 2 - Digital Futures