Talk:Unblack metal

message: Wikipedia policy is i believe clear on that band with no pages (thus no asserted notability) should not be cited in a list. Hence i'll delete them.Laguna117 01:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vaakevandring is part of the Christian Metal workgroup and will have a page soon.glocks out 22:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bands with no page 

message: okay im not sure about the rest of you but from what ive heard these guys are the whitest of the black(just need the lyrics and boom they are black metal) so please comment on this  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cradle thy filth (talk • contribs) 16:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  living sacrifice 

message: Crimson Thorn are death metal, and are not black metal, nor are they unblack. This should be deleted.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.26.160.10 (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry man, it's around, deal with it. Some christians like the style of black metal but not the lyrics. You can't just pretend something doesn't exist. Scskowron 02:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crimson Thorn 

message: I don't think Immortal Souls should be listed as unblack as they are melodic death metal.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.28.250.37 (talk) 10:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immortal Souls 

message: Some native speaker should correct the description of Horde. The only concert was given in 06, 12 years after the release of «Hellig Usvart». «Horde played only a single show before disbanding, the only actual member was the drummer Jayson Sherlocke, who wore a hood during the show. Despite Horde's quick disappearance,…» is therefor complete nonsense. --62.53.218.216 18:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Horde 

message: The article stated that Horde was the first-known unblck metal band, but Antestor seems to have preceded them as they released their first demo in 1991 (Horde only released their first album in 1994). Thus, I modified the paragraph to take that into consideration. Also changing the origin of the genre from mid-90's USA to early-90's Scandinavia (as to not single out just one country such as Norway). --Voievod 00:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: How the hell does this article have even nearly the same length as the black metal article?  I mean the bm article is still longer, but still.  There is way more info and material out there concerning black metal than unblack.  So how the hell is this article even close to the same length as the bm one?  It seems ridiculous.  Either the bm article needs to expand and more info needs to be added, or there is just way too much info in this article. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 20:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I see why it's so long...it's full of name dropping of record companies and bands.  Way too much. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 21:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "name dropping" itself is not the reason why the article is this long.  The unblack metal movement began around the same time as the second wave of black metal started, so it is natural that there is a good amount of history to write about. It would not even be difficult write a more in-depth history, pre-history of Christian thrash bands opposing the Venom and Sodom type attitude, aftermath of what an impact the bands had, or going for a more focused analysis on the lyrics or motives.  I find it rather silly that one would get worked up because an encyclopedia article is longer than an other one. You make it sound like that the length of a Wikipedia article is the measure of how significant a subject is in comparison to some other subject. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid your wrong on a few accounts.  First off I'm not "worked up," but I was a little incredulous.  Second, the black metal article is actually about 3 times longer, but still.  Third, name dropping is the reason the article is so long.  This article feels it's neccesary to talk about every single band involved in unblack metal (which is fine), but also attempts to mention every single album in the movement and (this is where I was most incredulous) even seems to mention every single record company used for almost every single one of those albums mentioned.  It doesn't really matter anyways, though. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 20:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. Currently this article is in a phase where we're trying to bring in more info. So the structure is now a timeline of what bands released what albums on what labels. Obviously an album release timeline is pretty numbing to read and therefore not a good solution. The next phase would be to organize the info in some way without doing original research. I was thinking that this article could be divided to regional scenes and we could write summaries of who were the leading bands, what they achieved, how were they received and so on. It's pretty challenging to write band articles for some of these groups because not all of them are notable. But I agree that it doesn't make sense to mention every demo band and labels. Say, you left a comment in the controversies section saying that the section should be removed because of POV issues. I think the section itself is necessary but maybe the content needs revising. Maybe the first few lines needs to be toned down a little but I think the quotes of Simon Rosen and Satyr are alright untill we find better arguments. You wouldn't happen to know any noteworthy, third party opinions on the style?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 07:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Much better.  Good job.  Kudos. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 22:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Out of curiosity 

message: I don't care if it's the early stuff, stop adding them, damnit.  They are not and never have been anything near to black metal (and yes that also means unblack metal smartasses) so stop fuckin' adding them to the list. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 21:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article isn't questionable. The inclusion of Underoath material doesn't harm the status of the article at all. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably right. Interestingly, based on the page ratings at the bottom of the article, people actually do seem to find this quite trustworthy, objective, and well-written. Nice.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 22:38, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

text: I wasn't sure about adding Underoath at first, because there wasn't much to go by. But the Sputnikmusic ref explained it a little, so it is no longer a random mention. I think that Underoath should be mentioned, as it shows the diversity of Christian bands that were starting to use black metal.--3family6 (talk) 19:27, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. Right now I'm listening to their earlier stuff, and black metal is definitely more than just an influence on it.--3family6 (talk) 19:34, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Fair enough. Doesn't seem like a proble then. Thanks for the input guys.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 22:38, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome.--3family6 (talk) 01:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Should probably be noted that it was only their first album which even touched on black metal; they then went on to release a pop-punk album, and currently straddle the line between hardcore and metalcore. 143.92.1.33 (talk) 02:52, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Underoath 

message: Shouldn't this page be heftly cut down and merged with the "christian metal" page? It's just a black varient of it, I really see no reason for it to have it's own page. Prophaniti (talk) 10:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely not, the Christian metal page already has a problem with its size, and this topic definitely deserves its own article, because the genre grew out of secular black metal, and then just became associated with Christian metal. It is a fusion genre of both styles, and deserves to be covered in its own page. There are a few documentaries made specifically of this subject (such as Light in darkness). See, there is a reason why this article exists, and why there are no articles titled "Christian death metal", Christian thrash metal"... etc.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 11:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Azure Shrieker. If we merge of genre variants together, all the article would be way too big.--Sugarcubez (talk) 04:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge? 

message: In the "Regional Scenes" section I noticed: "possibly the only group in the black/unblack metal genre to be all female." While the word "possibly" means there may be others, I think it should be removed. Why? 
"Astarte is an all-female black metal band from Athens, Greece." There's at least one band that disproves the statement. Perhaps they are the only all female unblack metal band? (I wouldn't know.)  
- I was looking back over the article and it would appear as though somebody else already removed the sentence in question from the article. 
138.47.125.116 (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that was me :-) It was unsourced and non-notable, aside from being factually incorrect. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Female black/unblack 

message: I've read through the article and as far as I can see the 'genre' of unblack metal consists of only two even vaguely notable bands, one of which only released one album, which was a parody/joke.  Oh yeah, and another notable band who play a completely different style of metal but also happen to be Christian.  Why is this article still here? Cdh1984 (talk) 19:12, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: First, the style itself is discussed in reliable sources, which is enough for it to have an article on Wikipedia. Second, there are more than just two notable "un"black metal bands mentioned in this article (remember, notability does not equal popularity or influence in overall scene). Thirdly, Jayson Sherlock has insisted that his Hellig Usvart release was not intended to be a parody. I'm not sure which band you are talking about "another notable band who play a completely different style of metal but also happen to be Christian." Do you mean Extol, which mixed black metal into their sound on early records, or Underoath, who basically crossed hardcore punk with black metal on their first two releases?--¿3family6 contribs 11:33, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My issue with the article (and fuck why does this come up so often) is that it's not a genre. It's a notable scene, but nowhere does the article explain how it is musically different from regular black metal; this is because it's the same music, and when you can barely hear the lyrics, this difference is somewhat moot. This article could be fixed by removing the 'genre' infobox, and replacing every sentence referring to CBM as a 'genre' with a sentence referring to CBM as a 'scene'. 143.92.1.33 (talk) 02:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not sure I appreciate your profanity but your opinion is noted and will like continue to be nothing more than noted as it is sufficiently different from black metal, primarily lyrically and thematically, that it stands as its own genre. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:15, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not notable 

message: Is a table really necessary? After a brief glance at the article, I can't see that a band's home country or year of formation really makes a difference in this genre. Also, why not include Christian bands that are called black metal? I realize it's more of a scene than a genre, but as long as they're properly notated (with a parenthetical or subsection or something like that), I don't see why Extol or Selfmindead or even early Underoath shouldn't be listed?--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 18:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Because your references are poor and it may not meet the standards of this article. Other than that, it's not a problem to have the table. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Huh? What references are you referring to? Or did you mean my style of sourcing in general?--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 18:52, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question(s)