Talk:Samanid Empire

message: It should be noted that the tajik identity was formed after the occupation of Central Asia by Turks. I.e. it is a privative(?)definition. It means persian speaking as opposed to turkish speaking. Since at the time of Samanids Central Asia was not occupied or controlled by Turkic tribes Tajik identity does not make sense. It was after the Samanids that turic tribes took control over the region.
    RE: Can You prove that? Bring some sources, please,. I would like to know my history.
: Actually the Tajik identity was formed when the Persians from Iran migrated in mass to Central Asia during the Arab invasions, that is according to Iranologist Richard Nelson Frye. --Behnam 06:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Samanids were from Balkh, north of Afghanistan. Nowadays Tajikistan is geopolitically located in the Pamir region. Aceditor00 (talk) 11:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samanids and Tajiks 

message: is this where 9th-century Pahlavi literature comes from? Jonathan Tweet 23:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pahlavi literature 

message: Dear Arian, 
Wikipedia is not a site or a book like Puta Khazana or sth like that. The last Samanid King ruled till 1005. That their rule took so long i do not need britanicca or sth. ...i have read the books about them!! I have movies about them!!! I have old texts about them written by arabs!!! PLZ do not hide their full ruling date!! WIKIPEDIA IS NOT MADE BY PASHTUNES WHO DOES NOT KNOW SAMANIDS IN AFGHANISTAN!!!
Ps:Dqiqi was writing for the shanameh in the court of the samanids but he died to early so firdowsi wrote for them further the book but they didn´t want it so he wrote the shahname for sulatn mahmud till his death!!! by the way before daqiqi and firdowsi the shahname was written by another persian from merv unfortunatley i have forgotten his life.
and 1+1 is not zero even when the samanids had ruled from 875 or whatever it don´t make 102 years!! it would be very good to visit midnight schools, my tip to you!! education is the most important thing today, don´t forget it!! ...it won´t hurt..even you are a pashtune ;)
:User:Tajik-Professor, first keep your Personal Attacks away, you are already aware of wikipedia rules. Here is not like other forum website. Secondly, you cannot remove a well-sourced information. The Britannica source is completely reliable, and you could not even provide a single source for what you wrote. Any unsourced information can be reverted.Ariana310 20:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly not. I changed the date of their ruling, and I forgot to change the number of years they ruled. If you can provide a reliable source for what you say (819 - 1005), then you can obviously change it in the article, without any problem.Ariana310 15:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the last Samanid King ruled till 1005 

message: Most of the information must be verified and accepted by a large scholarly society in afghanistan and historians that are neutral about the subject, other than that apparently everything on here is written favoring an iranian view as everyone on here including the editor is a tajik wannabe persian which in most people's opinion is not the same. 76.103.37.61 (talk) 01:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why afghans? how are they considered neutral in this matter? Give sources to counter the facts given by Persians if you can.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hazratemahmood (talk • contribs) 11:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Everyone in here are tajiks or pro-persians that are writing this history 

message: The article claims "To legitimize the dynasty, the Samanids claimed to be descendants of Bahram Chobin,[9]".. this is somewhat inaccurate. In the book, 'The History of Bukhara' by Narshakhi (Trans. by Richard Nelson Frye), there's an entire chapter called "An account of the house of Saman and their lineage", Here' it says (roughly) "Saman Khuda was one of the descendant of Bahram Chobin", in other words, they didn't simply claim it, they were infact descendants of Bahram Chobin as recorded in their lineage. I will be adding it with proper citation.
-- Source: The History of Bukhara by Narshakhi (Trans. Richard Nelson Frye), Pg 79, Chapter XXVI. --Theotherguy1 (talk) 12:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lineage of the Samanids 

message: During the Samanid period the Tajik nation was formed in Central Asia. The Samanid Empire is considered as the first Tajik state.
I have removed these from the text from the article, being of spurious nature. This is exactly what the official Soviet ethno-nationalist propaganda machine of Tajikistan pumped out, and as such does not belong in a NPOV encyclopaedia.
This is not only contentious but unvalidated. Please do not restore these passages to the article without proper scholarly citations directly making these claims. --Jhelyam (talk) 10:55, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed two sentences 

message: Is there a particular reason why most of the references (Notes) do not have dates or publishers given, let alone if there are different editions? It should also have a bibliography to supplement the script of the Notes. If these are article titles they should have the Journal, and issue and volume information, shouldn't it? Isn't the idea of providing information so that someone else can find it and use it too? Stevenmitchell (talk) 14:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikify 

message: in all historical source samanids empire certainly is persian.and verb of tajik were made ​​in later years.samanids named Themselves padishahe iran (king of persia).So if tajik's want are related themselves to the samanids,Because to build identity for their history and their newly establishment country,this identity building shouldn't effected on fact and history.
if this post have misspelling excuse me Because my english is some weak.Ali Historian (talk) 20:50, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The references supporting Tajik and the word Tajik should stay within the article. I do not see a problem allowing referenced information stating Persian as well. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The latest "source" from AllEmpires.com is not published and therefore does not pass Wikipedia's reliable sources requirements. I have added two university sources that state the Samanids were Tajik. --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Tajik" is technically wrong, because it is an exonym which was established much later. The correct expression in here would be "Persian". The Encyclopaedia of Islam (article by Clifford Edmund Bosworth) writes: SAMANIDS,  a Persian  dynasty  which  ruled  in Transoxania  and  then  in  Khurasan  also,  at  first  as subordinate governors  of the  Tahirids  [q. v. ] and  then later autonomous, virtually    independent rulers (204-395/819-1005). --Lysozym (talk) 17:18, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally do not have a preference, for Persian or Tajik. It would appear that the original "Persian" was changed to "Tajik" and later when I caught someone changing it, simply reverted it back without checking. However, of the 5 references for "Persian", the "Islam after Communism" doesn't even mention "Persian" and the other 4 references I am currently checking. There are 3 references that state Tajik Samanids. If you can bring enough sources to indicate that the 3 "Tajik" references are a minority, I would agree to changing it to "Persian". --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

text:  The Encyclopedia of Islam is authoritative. See also the Cambridge History of Islam:  --Lysozym (talk) 22:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not me you have to convince, it is the multitude of anon IPs that will revert you. You can change it Lysozym, I do not have a problem with "Persian". --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

text: While searching for the editor that plagiarized part of a book and added it to this article, I found this edit by Scythian1, where he changes the ethnicity to "Tajik". You might ask his opinion on his talk page. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact and Historical Source 

message: The Cultural and Religious efforts section appears to have been copied word-for-word from "History of Afghanistan" and "History of Iran". I will attempt to re-write the section without changing the "gist" of the section. Any concerns can be posted here. Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concern over plagiarism 

message: *Saman Khuda => Bahram Chobin => Bahram Gushnasp => House of Mihran => Seven Parthian clans
*Saman Khuda was a Dehqan. Was this title common for all Iranians or just Persians? --Wario-Man (talk) 06:54, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Wario-Man: It's disputed, some sources state that it's not for sure if they really were descendants of Bahram Chobin, who had become a famous figure mythological-like figure in Khorasan and Transoxiana. But if they were descendants of Bahram Chobin, they had surely been Persianized at that time. By this time, Dehqan was mostly used by Persians and eastern Iranians such as Sogdians, the inhabitants of Khuttal, etc. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:20, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the info. So an "Iranian" dynasty is more accurate than Persian and Parthian due to their origin and culture? --Wario-Man (talk) 18:06, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Wario-Man: I would say that both Persian and Iranian is correct, but I prefer myself to use Iranian in this case. Some scholars prefer to use 'Tajik', ie Persianized eastern Iranians. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:27, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weren't Samanids of Parthian stock? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: There is still debate about the Samanid being Tajik.  I think Tajikistan History soap should be added here. DifaiTal (talk) 14:42, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:SOAPBOX. Please show WP:RS about this alleged debate, so it doesn't look like you're violating said guideline. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samanid and Tajik 

message: I do not understand why this article states that it could be possible that the house of saman belonged to the oghuz turks just to mention the unlikeliness of this possibility right after. The house of Saman descended from a parthian family and are Iranian, the idea that there is a chance that the house of saman is of turkic origin is ridiculous at best. I hope someone can address my concerns over this. Thank you. 216.181.132.21 (talk) 20:37, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  House of saman and oghuz turks? 

message: Dear writer of this article. A peace of poem in legacy section, is not a reliable source to prove that Samanids were from Sassanid linage.
The source from Cambridge Press https://books.google.com/books?id=hvx9jq_2L3EC only indicates that Samanids are decendents of Bahram Chubin as a theory putting it along side their Turkic origin theory. The book mentions a first hand source for the latter while it does not support the first theory (Samanids' descendancy from Sassanids). However, in this article you state with certainty that "They considered themselves to be descendants of the Sasanian Empire" without mentioning that it is a probability.
You may want to either erase the sentence or mention that their origin is a matter of debate.
Aceditor00 (talk) 13:03, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the dynasty  

message: * "The victors in the civil war played on fears of Tajik nationalism among the large Uzbek minority and other non-Tajiks. The main political rivalries during the civil war and since pitted different factions of Tajiks (and others the Soviet system classified as Tajiks) against each other. The victors do on occasion invoke symbols of nationalism that the intelligentsia has also favoured. This can be seen as continuing to work with forms bequeathed by Soviet nationality politics and employing some of the same arguments. For example, the Samanid dynasty, which ruled much of the eastern Iranian world in the ninth and tenth centuries from its capital in Bukhara, is extolled as a Tajik state. Yet the Samanids would not have agreed with their Soviet characterization as Tajiks distinct from the broader population of Persian-speakers." page xxi, The Transformation of Tajikistan: The Sources of Statehood
As for Foltz source which you used, does not say that they were Tajiks in the same manner as Tajiks of today;
"During his last years and up to his death in 907 Ismā‘īl Sāmānī exercised control over most of the Iranian world. One may, as modern Tajiks emphatically do, consider him to be a ‘Tajik’ in the sense that he was a Persian-speaking Muslim – Persian being, as we have noted, the primary language through which Central Asia was Islamicized by Iranian converts from the West" - p. 66
 This Iranica article goes into depth regarding the fact that "Tajik" was not an ethnonym in the same sense as it is today.  There is more. Can't post it all here, too much info. Though it's freely accessible:
#"Though nowadays accepted proudly as an autonym (self-designation), the name Tājik was in origin a heteronym, conferred on the Tajiks by others. It did not always have its current connotations, and the Tajiks of today were not always so called. There is some scholarly controversy, and even more popular misunderstanding, surrounding the name."
#"The modern meaning of “Tajik” has been distorted in Tajik-language and Russian academic usage (both Soviet and post-Soviet) by the propaganda of the complementary agendas of Soviet nationalities policy and Tajik nationalism, so that the tail often wags the dog. In most scholarly writing on Persian literature and cultural history (of Iran and India as well as Central Asia) the adjective is usually construed as “Perso-Tajik” or “Tajik-Persian” poetry, historiography, etc., in an atopical and anachronistic application of the national ethnonym to the entire Persianate world: e.g., persidsko-tadžikskaia leksikografiia v Indii ‘Perso-Tajik lexicography in India’. This development was due largely to an understandable attempt by influential Tajik writers such as Ṣadr-al-Din ʿAyni and Bobojon Ghafurov, co-opted into the Soviet enterprise, to use Moscow’s own divide-and-rule nationalities policy against Moscow and Tashkent, in order to forestall assimilation of the Tajiks into Stalin’s Greater Russia or (a more immediate threat) Turkic Uzbekistan." 
* "In Central Asia, the meaning of previously-existing group names was changed and given an ethnic content. Some groups were declared part of the Uzbek nation, and the boundaries of an entity called “Uzbekistan” (which had never existed before) were delimited (Carlisle 1991b, p.24). The implementation of the nationalities policy was similar in Tajikistan. Tajik national identity was recognized in the national delimitation of 1924. Before the Soviet Union there was no idea of national identity among the population of Tajikistan. During the time of national delimitation there was great confusion among the population of Tajikistan when people were asked to declare their nationality. In Khujand, for example, many could not say whether they were Uzbeks or Tajiks. Some Iranian speakers called themselves Uzbeks. Subsequently Soviet policies began to create a Tajik national consciousness (Harmstone 1970, pp.78–79)." After the creation of Tajikistan, especially after 1929, the Soviet regime implemented policies which aimed at creating a sense of national identity. The Soviet Union promoted a national differentiation policy. Tajik culture was defined by Persian heritage, separate and distinct from the Turkic heritage of the Uzbeks and the nomads of the steppes, yet also distinct from Persia (Harmstone 1970, p.232). These policies were critical to the development of Tajik national consciousness. The same was true for the development of the Uzbek nation as well. Nation was developed with the Soviet policies as a part of the greater Soviet identity and counter to panTurkic, pan-Islamic, and pan-Turkestan ideas." - Power, Networks and Violent Conflict in Central Asia: A Comparison of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan
* "This essay looks at the national history of the Tajiks of Central Asia that was created in the twentieth century and has continued to develop into the twenty-first century. It traces the notion of Tajik nationalism, which arose in the 1920s under the Soviet Union, largely in response to Uzbek nationalism. Soviet intellectuals and scholars thereafter attempted to construct a new history for the Tajiks. The most important effort in that area was Bobojon Ghafurov’s study Tadzhiki (Tajiks, 1972), which gave them primacy among the Central Asian peoples" - p. 224, New Nation, New History: Promoting National History in Tajikistan, Brill
Also, the Adeeb Khalid source you used does not say that the Samanids were Tajiks, quite the contrary, that the Soviet-era Tajiks tried to create their own identity; "In the Soviet era, the Tajik intelligentsia built up a glorious heritage for the nation that traced the origins of the Tajik nation, via the tenth-century Samanid state centered in Bukhara, to the ancient Sogdians. Tajik intellectuals saw their nation as the most ancient, most “civilized” people in Central Asia, heir to the wisdom of the Avesta and the glories of much of Persian poetry. But they had no modern history to lay claim to and no political references more recent than the Samanids." p. 148 HistoryofIran (talk) 22:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here we go again