Talk:Steve Clarke

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This has been discussed many times before at WP:FOOTY, and the consensus has always been to record them as draws. That reflects what the score was at the end of the match. FIFA have explicitly stated when calculating their world rankings that "To ensure that the formula is not only fair but also simple, matches that are decided by a penalty shoot-out (which are considered draws under normal rules) result in the winning team receiving two points and the losing team one point."  Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:26, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is also the method used by Soccerbase  when recording manager stats.--Egghead06 (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Taken directly from a document issued by FIFA themselves (): "To ensure that the formula is not only fair but also simple, matches that are decided by a penalty shoot-out (which are considered draws under normal rules)" (emphasis mine) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:42, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, that's the same link posted above - apologies :-S -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:43, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Another site:  - "Penalty kick shootouts do not play any part in determining the result of a match.  When the teams are level in goals scored at the end of extra-time play, the result is recorded as a draw no matter what happens in the penalty kick shootout.  Penalty kick shootout goals are scored after match play has concluded, not during match play." -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well exactly. We don't count "goals" scored in a penalty shootout as goals in player statistical tallies either. A penalty shootout is just not part of the normal game. It's a tiebreaker, like the away goals rule or tossing a coin. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia operates on consensus. There is much on Wikipedia I don’t agree with but consensus says otherwise. Consensus says draws at full-time are draws regardless of penalties. You’re only way forward is to go with consensus or campaign to change it. Editing Steve Clarke’s article to your view is never going to end well.--Egghead06 (talk) 09:26, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I get the feeling this is like talking to a brick wall, but here we go anyway: the 2020–21 Scottish League Cup group stage is currently being played. When a game is level after 90 minutes each team is awarded one point like a normal draw, but they then have a penalty shootout. The winner of the shootout gets a bonus point (two in total). By your binary "winner" logic, surely the teams that win a penalty shootout should get the normal three points, and the loser none? Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:44, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If you check-out here, the games v Israel are shown as.........draws.--Egghead06 (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

text: If, say, a cup final ends in a draw, the match itself was a draw, and the shoot-out then determines which team wins the tournament and gets the trophy.  The result of the match itself remains a draw.  A link has been shared above (multiple times, as it happens) to an official document issued by FIFA specifically stating this -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Scotland did not win the game. They drew the game, and a penalty shootout was held to decide who went through to the final. Scotland won that and went through, but the statistical result of the match after 120 minutes is a draw. I'm sure you are very capable of understanding the distinction, so instead you are wilfully ignoring it despite multiple people trying to persuade you several times in different ways, including pointing out that FIFA counts these matches as draws and that's why Wikipedia does too. The addition of debatable content added to the site is dealt with by editor consensus, and as you may have seen this issue was brought up again at the football project due to your inputs, with agreement that a draw is the way it gets recorded. So in terms of editing the page, it's you against everyone else who edits football stuff, so you won't win. It really makes no difference to anyone's lives and yet we've all spent a fair amount of time over the last 50 hours or so looking at it. Please move on. Crowsus (talk) 14:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to count a penalty shootout