Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive8

message: Tolkien articles by quality statistics (worklist) :
Archives
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*Archive 1 (25 Nov., 2005 – 02 Apr., 2006)
*Archive 2 (05 Apr., 2006 – 15 May, 2006)
*Archive 3 (15 May, 2006 – 30 June, 2006)
*Archive 4 (1 July, 2006 – 17 Aug., 2006)
*Archive 5 (23 Aug., 2006 – 29 Sept., 2006)
*Archive 6 (30 Sept., 2006 – 7 Dec., 2006)
*Archive 7 (8 Dec., 2006 – 21 Feb., 2007)
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If anyone wants to pull out or copy a previous discussion, feel free to to do so. —Mirlen 17:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

message: ===Roll call: Mid-February to March===
The mid-January to mid-February roll call was stolen by our friendly pet balrog. Apologies for the delay in updating the project talk page. Please sign your name below. Comments are optional.
#Signing in for the first time. I'll see what I might be able to do. Suriel1981 21:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Community

message: The mid-January to mid-February roll call was stolen by our friendly pet balrog. Apologies for the delay in updating the project talk page. Please sign your name below. Comments are optional.
#Signing in for the first time. I'll see what I might be able to do. Suriel1981 21:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Roll call: Mid-February to March

message: ====Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catherine Karina Chmiel====
Artist. Debate relisted Feb 15. --Mereda 17:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Needs expansion... anyone here fluent in Polish, Russian and/or Italian? Uthanc 09:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kept Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I've done a rewrite, and Tttom added some references. Let's see what happens. Carcharoth 11:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Articles for deletion

message: Artist. Debate relisted Feb 15. --Mereda 17:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Needs expansion... anyone here fluent in Polish, Russian and/or Italian? Uthanc 09:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kept Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catherine Karina Chmiel]]

message: Concensus so far is to merge. --Fang Aili talk 14:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baillie Tolkien]]

message: I figure that people here might want to chime in at this AfD. Tarc 19:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've done a rewrite, and Tttom added some references. Let's see what happens. Carcharoth 11:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Middle-earth canon]]

message: * TfD. --Fang Aili talk 22:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Result - kept with extensive changes - the family tree was moved to Tolkien family and the template turned into a navbox to showcase the Wikipedia articles on Tolkien family members. Carcharoth 01:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template for deletion notice

message: ====Black Speech of Mordor user category====
This category was just nominated for deletion as part of a large batch: Wikipedia:User categories for discussion. IronGargoyle 02:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Both got deleted. Anyway, none of us are native speakers of it... Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CFD notice 

message: This category was just nominated for deletion as part of a large batch: Wikipedia:User categories for discussion. IronGargoyle 02:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:User blksp-N|Black Speech of Mordor user category]]

message: Nonimated by the same user. Uthanc 09:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both got deleted. Anyway, none of us are native speakers of it... Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Native speakers of [[:Category:User qya-N|Quenya]] and [[:Category:User blksp-N|Black Speech]]

message: *Jenny Dolfen recently got PRODded. Uthanc 22:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lost articles

message: *An article to keep an eye on: The History of The Hobbit. Carcharoth 19:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Articles newly made/found

message: The poll for templates, as of last count, was in favor of Fixed-pitch graphics. Uthanc 04:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family templates/Poll 

message: Update needed Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The merging issue touches on this - Uthanc 18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists versus individual articles 

message: There still hasn't been a consensus  on terminology, see the archives. Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems the general consensus is to use "Tolkien's [Middle-earth] legendarium". I suggest making "legendarium" link to Tolkien's legendarium. Just not "Middle-earth universe" or "fictional universe of Middle-earth". Uthanc 18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology 

message: Snipped lots of stuff here that should really be resurrected from the archives and discussion restarted/concluded. Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lots of stuff in archives

message: I wonder if folks could have a look at what was done here: ? I reverted, since it seemed unsuitable to me for several reasons even aside from the formatting problems. The editor who wrote that section understandably disagrees. If anyone else has an opinion, I would welcome your comments at Talk:War of Wrath. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've commented (extensively now!) over there. There is a general issue of style, which I will raise below. Carcharoth 01:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: War of Wrath

message: Ive started up the article on the artist/illustrator Catherine Karinia Chmiel (needs improving im getting some info form the person) and added a few things to Peoples of Middle-Earth and Northmen (Middle-earth)
No on seems to b very active atm :( le Dan 19:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you like some more work to do? :-) Carcharoth 00:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol i wouldnt mind :P is there anything that needs doin that wont require ALOT of work to it? le Dan 18:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about looking at the recent changes to Middle-earth and Tolkien articles here: Special:Recentchangeslinked/Portal:Middle-earth/Pages? Save that link on your user page somewhere, and check it when you get the chance, and revert vandalism when you see it. Carcharoth 01:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Random things

message: Uploaded by our new member Tommy9281, who understandably has only signed up in front (changing instructions there). See if there's any tagging problems...  Also, the page really needs updating... might do it myself... Uthanc 14:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A lot of new Ted Nasmith images

message: Looking around at random, I came across the article on Isilmo, the younger brother of Tar-Telperiën of Númenor, and found him to be in the category for "Middle-earth Dúnedain", along with a lot of other Númenóreans.  I know I'm not a wikiproject member (although I'm quite familiar with the Matter of Arda on all sides), but I'm curious: does these Númenóreans really belong in a Middle-Earth category, when (if I remember rightly) the Akallabêth states that Númenor was not part of Middle-Earth, or Ennorë?  Or is "Middle-Earth" simply used for Arda?  Nyttend 15:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many people, starting with Tolkien himself, have used 'Middle-earth' as a name for the entire 'legendarium' in addition to the land mass where most of the stories took place. That said, simply using 'Dúnedain' as the category name would be clearer. --CBD 19:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could also have a "Numenorean Dunedain" category, though I think we already have an Edain category. Similarly for First Age/Second Age/Third Age Edain categories. No category system will ever slice things up neatly without any overlap, and in any case, some of these articles are stubs that will eventually end up in a list, with the current locations redirecting to the relevant section of that list. Carcharoth 16:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I would see simply "Dúnedain" as a better category name, since the only non-royally-connected people I can think of in Númenor would be the widow, the bad boy, and the friend of Aldarion, all from Emerië.  I suppose that it would also cause overlap with people such as Aldarion (and those who survived the Akallabêth!), which simply "Dúnedain" would not do.  Nyttend 13:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle-Earth: Arda or Ennorë? 

message: Can people here have a look at the introduction to War of Wrath? The style used there (developed by me and User:Tttom) is different to the standard "in J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium" lead sentence that is the current standard style. Instead, that article spends a few sentences and footnotes going into external details about the history of the text and which published works the article relates to. Nothing extensives, but setting the scene so to speak. The reader is only then launched into the "in-universe" perspective. In my opinion, this approach helps to avoid the sometimes jarring in-universe emphasis of most of the Middle-earth related articles. I can't reproduce the footnotes exactly here, but have tried to do so below.
"In the fiction of J. R. R. Tolkien, the War of Wrath, or the Great Battle was the final war against Morgoth at the end of the First Age. It appears in the earliest versions of his legendarium [1] and also appears in the The Silmarillion [2]. The War of Wrath is mentioned in passing in The Lord of the Rings at the Council of Elrond, and the Tale of the Years[3]. The details about the war are fragmentary, and are scattered through the various versions of the tales."
[1] written in the 1920's -1930's and published posthumously in the History of Middle-earth series 1983-1996 </br>
[2] (1977), the work published posthumously by the author's son and literary executor, Christopher Tolkien </br>
[3] Lord of the Rings, 1954-5: I, p.256; III, p.363 Appendix B </br>
What do people think about adopting this style in other articles? Carcharoth 01:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like it, but think we would need some sort of standards on which references to include... if we cited all relevant texts the lead of Elf (Middle-earth) would be very long. I might suggest something like 'earliest' reference, 'major works' (i.e. Hobbit/LotR/Silm), and 'latest' reference. The 'latest' reference might only be needed for things which 'dropped out' of the mythology or for which there is some debate about whether Tolkien intended to drop the idea. --CBD 11:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points. I like the 'earliest, major, latest' framework. Do you want to give it a go for Elf (Middle-earth), and see how that works out? Good luck in figuring out where Tolkien first wrote about elves... (maybe Elf is a bad example?). Carcharoth 13:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. Looks like someone beat us to it for Elf! :-) Carcharoth 14:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Style of introductions

message: I've been going through the 493 assessed articles (see table at top right) and identifying candidates for merging. I've put them in :Category:Wikiproject Middle-earth to be merged. I've still got the 274 "Start" class articles to check. Then after that there is the large group of 722 unassessed articles. Most of the stubby articles will be there (though obviously not all stubs are merger candidates - some stubs just need expanding and finishing). I've tended to leave real-world stuff to have their own articles, and it is really just minor stuff inside Middle-earth that I'm pulling out as candidates for merging. Does anyone want to help out? Any redirects in the unassessed articles should be placed in :Category:Middle-earth redirects. If anyone wants to help with the actual merging, which will take longer, please say so as well, as there are several important points about how to do a merger correctly, which I'd like to discuss and sort out. Carcharoth 10:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and if anyone disagrees with any of the articles being merger candidates, please say so here so we can get an idea of where the boundaries should be. I've tended to go by how much can be said about the character, event, object, place. If only a paragraph or two will ever be possible, then that is a merger candidate, IMO. Carcharoth 10:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Identifying candidates for merging

message: Could some experienced Middle-earth editors weigh in on the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#tolkiengateway.net?  Thanks -- Siobhan Hansa 19:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  tolkiengateway.net spam? 

message: I am petitioning to have this page altered to rmeove the restriction against using succession boxes for fictional characters. I think this group has an interest since several related pages for fictional characters are already using these boxes. Please Vote Here.--Dr who1975 18:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Infoboxes and succession boxes|Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)]]