Talk:Demographic history of Macedonia/Archive 2

message: Well, if we are gonna play statistics, here you get some by me. Which one do you prefer? I can quote at least 3-4 more, such as Brailsford, the Times and the Guardian but don't have the time to look them up now. As for the rest - your idiotic questions do not deserve an answer. I have so long refrained from making overtly pro-Bulgarian edits here but just wait and see. VMORO July 3, 2005 20:40 (UTC)
Name            	1. Prof. G. Wiegland - Die Nationalen Bestrebungen der Balkansvölker. Leipzig 1898	2. Official Turkish Statistic Ethnicity of Macedonia Philippopoli  1881	3. Journal "Le Temps" Paris 1905	4. Robert Pelletier - La verite sur la Bulgarie. Paris 1913	5. Leon Dominian - The frontiers of Language and Nationality in Europe. New York 1917	6. Richard von Mach - Der Machtbereich des bulgarischen Exarchats in der Türkei. Leipzig - Neuchatel, 1906	7. Prince Tcherkasky 1877	8. Stepan Verkovitch 1889
Nationality     	Germany                                                                           	Turkey                                                                 	France                          	France                                                     	USA                                                                                  	Germany                                                                                                   	Russia                   	Serbia
Population total	2,275,000                                                                         	754,353                                                                	2,782,000                       	1,437,000                                                  	1,438,084                                                                            	1,334,827                                                                                                 	1,771,220                	1,949,043
Bulgarians      	1,200,000                                                                         	500,554                                                                	1,200,000                       	1,172,000                                                  	1,172,136                                                                            	1,166,070                                                                                                 	872,700                  	1,317,131
Greeks          	220,000                                                                           	22,892                                                                 	270,000                         	190,000                                                    	190,047                                                                              	95,005                                                                                                    	124,250                  	222,740
Turks           	695,000                                                                           	185,535                                                                	410,000                         	---                                                        	---                                                                                  	---                                                                                                       	516,220                  	240,264
Albanians       	---                                                                               	---                                                                    	600,000                         	3,036                                                      	12,006                                                                               	6,036                                                                                                     	---                      	78,790
Remarks         	all Muslims under Turks                                                           	all Muslims under Turks                                                	---                             	only Christians                                            	only Christians                                                                      	only Christians                                                                                           	all Muslims under Turks  	---
I don't really know where you got this data from, as I don't even know where you got your articles on your massacres from and at the moment it's not really important. Assuming that your data is authentic, it's basically mathematically impossible to be correct:
*We already know how many people took place in the population exchanges and the exact ethnic composition of Greece after 1913, and the millions of Bulgars you're claiming just don't do the math.
::There were around 300,000-350,000 Bulgarians (or more rightly - Slavs) in present-day Greek Macedonia before 1912. Some 150,000 fled or were relocated to Bulgaria during and after the Balkan Wars and after WWI. The patriarchists were at least 100,000 and presented themselves as Greeks, they, of course, stayed. Last there are 80,000 people which the Greek government counted in 1926 as Bulgarisants. As you see, the numbers fit quite well. VMORO July 4, 2005 06:53 (UTC)
*We know that Serbians agreed with Greece to acquire Agean Macedonia (which is basically the real Macedonia) only because the Slav population was a minority. As you already know, Serbians were planning to assimilate any Slavophone population of Macedonia and gain access to the Aegean sea. Serbia was more more powerful than Greece at the time and there's no way in hell she would have agreed with this treaty if the Slavic population of Aegean Macedonia was not a minority.
::I have never argued that Bulgarians represented the bulk of the population of Aegean Macedonia - they represented around 1/3 of it if we count mother tongue. Don't attempt to speculate on what the Serbians wanted and thought and tra-la-la. Everyone took whatever they could in Macedonia. Period. VMORO July 4, 2005 06:53 (UTC)
*What's the population of Bulgaria today? 7,000,000? According to Demographics of Bulgaria only some 80% is ethnic Bulgarian. But let's say I give you that. Let's say it's 100%. Let's say Bulgaria and FYROM put together. How much? 8, 9, hell I even give you 10M! The year is 2005, and you claim a 2M Bulgarian population only in Northern Greece during the 19th century... That implies that in the 19th c. there's at least a constant C > 2M already in Bulgaria, and a few other constants Cn for each neighbouring country with a Bulgarian population (FYROM, Serbia, Turkey etc, etc). I mean, unless a nation has a superficial homosexuality tendency, the math just doesn't work. Or let me guess, is this data correct because there's still a massive Bulgaro-Macodonian minority in Northern Greece which is kept hidden by the Greek governent? I've heard that one too. Of course it's inhumanly oppressed, forbidden to speak its language, etc, etc. I bet those hairy Greeks smell bad as well, don't you think?
::7.5 MLN and 84%, thank you. You don't read carefully. And the highest number which comes from the Christian Bulgarians in Macedonia is around 1.0 MLN (These are now - of course - Macedonians in RoM and Bulgarians in Bulgaria). Where are these 2.0 MLN you are constantly wandering about? Seriously, can you read, Miskin??? And what is this "massive Bulgaro-Macodonian minority in Northern Greece"? It is only you who you are talking about it. Is this the real reason behind your edits? VMORO July 4, 2005 06:53 (UTC)
Why are you 
*Lastly, I don't know exactly what you define as "Macedonia" in the early 20th century. The infamous partition of Macedonia in 1913, didn't really share the historical region of Macedon, what it shared was an Ottoman province. During the 2nd century AD, the province of Macedonia in the Roman Empire included Thessaly, Epirus, part of Thrace and Illyria. The original province of Macedonia (TM) prior to Philip II's conquests was restricted to what you people call "Aegean Macedonia'. Ever since Philip's time the borders of the have varied. In that respect, I'm always talking about the authentic region of Macedonia, which has nothing to do with Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia&co. In other words, if the region of Macedonian in your own mind extends from the Aegean sea to the fringes of Transylvania, is a completely different story, a personal problem of yours, and definitely not something which has to do with the term Macedonians.
Miskin 4 July 2005 00:54 (UTC)
::I see you have a serious problem with the definition of the borders of Macedonia - which is proven by your inadequate comments here and by your edits in the article. In an international (understand English-lingual) context, the region of Macedonia COMPRISES the Republic of Macedonia, Greek Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia. This modern definition covers also the whole time span from Antiquity until now. The borders of Ancient Macedonia are NOT VALID in an English encyclopaedia. If the Greek definition of Macedonia applies only to Aegean Macedonia, this is peculiar only to Greece, everyone else defines Macedonia as I defined it above. Not because I have chosen it to be this way but because this is a GENERALLY ACCEPTED PRACTICE. If you are editting here, you should conform to the definition of Macedonia in English. If you want to pretend that Macedonia is nothing else but Aegean Macedonia, there is the Greek Wikipedia for you. VMORO July 4, 2005 06:53 (UTC)
===Rival Statisics Deleted===
I put some additional statistics with a number of Macedonian Slavs. There are 3 sources, all of them from Western Europe. Naturally, it was deleted. Looking at the history of the article there seems to be lot of delete wars so I don’t see much point reposting them. On top of that they don’t look right; it’s not believable that Bulgarian sources would put Greeks as strong majority. 
I want to share few anecdotes from H. Brailsford’s book regarding all those fancy statistics:
*… . I remember vividly my amazement when I encountered this quaint phenomenon during my first visit to Macedonia. I was talking to a wealthy peasant who came in from a neighbouring village to Monastir market. He spoke Greek well, but hardly like a native. "Is your village Greek," I asked him, "or Bulgarian ?" "Well," he replied, "it is Bulgarian now, but four years ago it was Greek." The answer seemed to him entirely natural and commonplace. "How," I asked in some bewilderment, "did that miracle come about ?" "Why," said he, "we are all poor men, but we want to have our own school and a priest who will look after us properly. We used to have a Greek teacher. We paid him £5 a year and his bread, while the Greek consul paid him another £5; but we had no priest of our own. We shared a priest with several other villages, but he was very unpunctual and remiss. We went to the Greek Bishop to complain, but he refused to do anything for us. The Bulgarians heard of this and they came and made us an offer. They said they would give us a priest who would live in the village and a teacher to whom we need pay nothing. Well, sir, ours is a poor village, and so of course we became Bulgarians." One can picture this rather quaint revolution….
*… I have heard a witty French consul declare that with a fund of a million francs he would undertake to make all Macedonia French. He would preach that the Macedonians are the descendants of the French crusaders who conquered Salonica in the twelfth century, and the francs would do the rest….
--Cigor 14:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Statistics

message: I put some additional statistics with a number of Macedonian Slavs. There are 3 sources, all of them from Western Europe. Naturally, it was deleted. Looking at the history of the article there seems to be lot of delete wars so I don’t see much point reposting them. On top of that they don’t look right; it’s not believable that Bulgarian sources would put Greeks as strong majority. 
I want to share few anecdotes from H. Brailsford’s book regarding all those fancy statistics:
*… . I remember vividly my amazement when I encountered this quaint phenomenon during my first visit to Macedonia. I was talking to a wealthy peasant who came in from a neighbouring village to Monastir market. He spoke Greek well, but hardly like a native. "Is your village Greek," I asked him, "or Bulgarian ?" "Well," he replied, "it is Bulgarian now, but four years ago it was Greek." The answer seemed to him entirely natural and commonplace. "How," I asked in some bewilderment, "did that miracle come about ?" "Why," said he, "we are all poor men, but we want to have our own school and a priest who will look after us properly. We used to have a Greek teacher. We paid him £5 a year and his bread, while the Greek consul paid him another £5; but we had no priest of our own. We shared a priest with several other villages, but he was very unpunctual and remiss. We went to the Greek Bishop to complain, but he refused to do anything for us. The Bulgarians heard of this and they came and made us an offer. They said they would give us a priest who would live in the village and a teacher to whom we need pay nothing. Well, sir, ours is a poor village, and so of course we became Bulgarians." One can picture this rather quaint revolution….
*… I have heard a witty French consul declare that with a fund of a million francs he would undertake to make all Macedonia French. He would preach that the Macedonians are the descendants of the French crusaders who conquered Salonica in the twelfth century, and the francs would do the rest….
--Cigor 14:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rival Statisics Deleted