Talk:Fernando Collor de Mello/Archive 2

message: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0011-52581998000100001
1. Fim da Era Collor foi causado por inimigos políticos
2. A hyperinflação, causada pela instabilidade política dos inimigos de Collor elegeu FHC.
A crise institucional desencadeada pela descoberta de um grande esquema de corrupção sob o governo Collor, o processo de impeachment que se seguiu e a aceleração da inflação que deixou a maioria da população desprotegida — com exceção de uns poucos — diante das conseqüências negativas da instabilidade econômica, criaram um clima propício para a introdução e o sucesso da execução de um novo plano de estabilização, o Plano Real. O êxito do plano permitiu ao presidente Fernando Henrique Cardoso construir uma aliança política que tirava proveito de sua sólida vitória eleitoral. Essas forças conferiram um alto grau de legitimidade à administração de Cardoso, dando-lhe condições de unir os governadores e formar uma maioria nas duas Casas do Congresso. A recuperação da estabilidade econômica e a grande legitimidade do governo possibilitaram à nova administração propor uma agenda de reformas que atacava as fontes estruturais da ingovernabilidade no Brasil. O governo de Fernando Henrique Cardoso defronta-se agora com o desafio de consolidar a estabilidade econômica e, ao mesmo tempo, levar avante a reforma do Estado e o restabelecimento da autoridade pública, fatores necessários para promover a governabilidade em uma democracia.
Na segunda seção afirmo que o êxito inesperado do Plano Real se explica pela emergência da hiperinflação, pela descoberta do esquema de corrupção do presidente Collor e pela forma como o Plano Real foi posto em prática. A hiperinflação anulou a eficácia da indexação e, desse modo, aumentou os riscos associados à instabilidade do mercado para amplos setores da população brasileira. Isso desencorajou a adesão e diminuiu a força da coalizão de atores que não tinham interesse algum na estabilização, ao mesmo tempo que uniu o grupo dos que temiam os custos econômicos de um novo fracasso. Após as investigações realizadas pelo Congresso e pelo Judiciário sobre o esquema de corrupção do presidente Fernando Collor, o povo entendeu claramente que os grupos envolvidos em práticas de sobrevalorização, aumentos injustificados de preços e especulação financeira eram os que mais se beneficiavam com o caos econômico. A revelação pública dos grandes lucros auferidos pelos bancos, instituições financeiras e empresas, com elevados custos para a sociedade, abalou a influência política desses setores. Por fim, o Plano Real foi desenhado e implementado de modo gradual e negociado, o que ajudou a minimizar os custos da estabilização para a maioria da população assalariada.
o êxito inesperado do Plano Real se explica pela emergência da hiperinflação, pela descoberta do esquema de corrupção do presidente Collor e pela forma como o Plano Real foi posto em prática. A hiperinflação anulou a eficácia da indexação e, desse modo, aumentou os riscos associados à instabilidade do mercado para amplos setores da população brasileira.
Does it suffice to link the hyperinflation to FHC´s succes? Is it eunough to prove that the end of hyperinflation is Collor´s and that the his faiulre/impeachment was FHC´s maneuver? That he inherited not only the fundamentals of privatization, tech modernization and free trade --but he also benefit from Collor´s failures (all of them as a result of polcitical instability)?  Ludovicapipa yes? 21:58-22:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Coren agreed with me that that paragraph about inflation was a synthesis, and thus violating WP:OR. --Dali-Llama 22:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Collor´s hyperinflation was a political manuever to impeach him

message: I don´t see where is the second editor. i´d like to see the second editor´s point of view. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Coren agreed with me that that paragraph about inflation was a synthesis, and thus violating WP:OR. --Dali-Llama 22:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tag

message: The problem that I've been having with your contributions so far is that you've been pushing a very clear agenda. And that's okay: you've been honestly trying to provide sources for your views. But when you add something specific which is not the commonly accepted theory, the stringency with which Wikipedia deals with sources increases as well. In that case, Wikipedia consider this a fringe theory, so it follows that exceptional claims require exceptional sources. So in this case, even if it is an academic paper, there needs to be an exceptional number of sources (and their reliability beyond reproach) to draw this fact you're advocating which is not in the mainstream.
: [interjection] Yr words are quite contraditory. How can I be honest and provide so many links and at the same time be too specific? Well, if I can provide many links, it menas there several people thiking the same thing. Right? If I was specific, I would find somany dozens of links. If Bresser, Pstu, Collor Zelia, Newspapes, media...say the ver same thing --and you can´t even show me a single link that states the opposite --it´s clear that we´ve reached the mainstream. Ludovicapipa yes? 05:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [interjection]No, my links are pointing to 1.: his pionerism in priv. and free trade (with which you´ve just agreed); 2.: end of hyperinf. (with which you also agree); 3.:political manuevers that had very bad impact on his admministration; 4.: thas these manuevers were FHC´s, Pt´s, and other sector of society, even his brother (as you said on the article); 5.: As Scielo link states: hyperinflation helped FHC to implement Plano Real. The inflation chronolgy proves that, although I can now make this chronology just an ilustrative one: FHC benefit from Collor´s priv, free trade and hyperinflation, and that, all together, enabled Plano Real. I´d like to rewrite this part according to 5 steps. And conclude: Collor´s legacy is that os a politician who started an unprecedent macoreconomic agenda that prepared the road to Plano Real success --all of this are cited. Ludovicapipa yes? 05:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This is what's wrong with what you're doing: "rewrite this part according to 5 steps. And conclude: Collor´s legacy is that os a politician who started an unprecedent macoreconomic agenda that prepared the road to Plano Real success." This is you reaching a conclusion from a multitude of sources which say everything BUT this. You are not allowed to draw conclusions. The conclusion is up to the reader, not you. So again, without getting bogged down in he-said, she-said (quite literally in this case), put the specific changes (IE: the exact paragraph as it would appear) you would like to make to the article.--Dali-Llama 05:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No I am cited yr own words: you agree he ended hyper inflation, you agree Lula follows FHC, you mentioned Pedro Collor ( a political factor as the start of the impeachmete process). If you agree, I agree and several citatiosn agree --then it drives me to write a text according to you , to citations. Ludovicapipa yes? 06:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plan of action during the page protection 

message: Here is another suggestion:
“In 1994 the Supreme Federal Tribunal dismissed criminal charges against Collor because of technicalities affecting evidence, in a majority decision of 5 votes to 3. Although data retrieved from Paulo César Faria’ personal computer implicated Collor, some court members understood the prosecution had obtained it without the necessary judicial authorization, therefore considering it illegally obtained evidence. The verdict confirmed a historical trend that plagues the Brazilian highest court to this day: that of never having convicted a Brazilian politician of criminal charges since 1988, when the current Constitution was adopted. Brazilian Magistrates Association. "Nenhuma condenação desde 1988" (Retrieved August 21, 2007) Nevertheless, this decision did not influence the National Congress impeachment procedures”.
I removed "controversial" as an adjective to characterize the decision. I added "since 1988" because it's the period covered by the study I use as reference. We would be missing two citations regarding the case itself, which I can add later.
I think this gets the section rid of POV. We would be saying the criminal charges were dismissed by STF, since in fact they really were dismissed. In the other hand, we would point out the dodgy nature by which STF handles these cases, and the fact the court, in this case, dismissed charges based on technicalities and not on arguments denying the facts actually took place. In Brazilian criminal law, it makes a lot of difference. Thus, the casual user that is unfamiliar with Brazil or Collor should be in better grounds to make up his own mind about Collor being innocent or guilty. Sparks1979 22:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like this, with minor changes. Instead of saying "the verdict confirmed...", I'd say "The verdict is seen as part of a greater problem in Brazil's highest court..." We do have a source for the invalidation of evidence (it's in the article right now). We need a source for the 5-3 decision. But again, I have no problems changing what's in the article for this. --Dali-Llama 00:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good news. Before I started looking, I noticed footnote 17 already works as a source for the 5-3 decision: “Por cinco votos a três, os ministros consideraram improcedente a denúncia do procurador-geral.” I think the 5-3 decision indicates it was controversial, but I will look up for sources of controversy outside the courtroom. Anyway, for now, I think it’s better to leave the paragraph without explicit mention to controversy. Sparks1979 13:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sounds good. --Dali-Llama 15:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: : No news, this is the text I wrote and the final one.   Ludovicapipa yes? 20:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not properly formatted, has citations in Portuguese, etc. type out exactly as you intend to add it to the article so I can edit it as well.--Dali-Llama 20:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Make all comments you want. From there I will format. Ludovicapipa yes? 20:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't understand--as it stands, the text is not properly formatted for inclusion. You have Portuguese quotes in the middle and a number of grammatical issues. I'm asking you to finalize your submission, so in essence your final opinion on the matters we've been discussing, and then I'll edit it in the form of a compromise edit. I can't do it with the text as is right now.--Dali-Llama 21:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New text II