Talk:Terri Schiavo case/Mediation/Archive 3

message: Please sign with pound star tildes #*~~~~, where you agree that a particular wording should go into the article. (The Mediator will put your name in italics, pending your confirmation.)
====Persistent vegetative state====
#Some doctors issued a diagnosis of PVS. 
#*Ann Heneghan 21:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am disturbed that the list of choices for voting has the appearance of a Push poll.  Thus, I feel I have been sandbagged into voting for something I don't entirely endorse.  It is, however, the lesser of evils.--ghost 13:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary of Key Points

message: #Some doctors issued a diagnosis of PVS. 
#*Ann Heneghan 21:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am disturbed that the list of choices for voting has the appearance of a Push poll.  Thus, I feel I have been sandbagged into voting for something I don't entirely endorse.  It is, however, the lesser of evils.--ghost 13:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Persistent vegetative state]]

message: *I could sign to "She might have partially recovered with the right kind of therapy."  That would be in keeping with the testimony from a speech pathologist, which Gordon managed to track down after it had disappeared from the Schindler website .  However, I don't think the article should state as a fact either that she could or that she couldn't have recovered.  They are just personal opinions of some editors.  The article, in my view, should state simply what Sara Green Mele said, and what Judge Greer said, etc.  My beliefs about which one was right are not really relevant.  I'm stating them simply because I've been asked to, not because I want my views to go into the article.  Ann Heneghan 21:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am disturbed that the list of choices for voting has the appearance of a Push poll.  Thus, I feel I have been sandbagged into voting for something I don't entirely endorse.  It is, however, the lesser of evils.--ghost 13:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: These points shall be based on intro disputes. I am invoking the new Text Move rule, created by Uncle Ed recently: I am pasting disputed text here to be analyzed. Text is as follows and based on a comparison between two recent versions at this diff:
On February 25, 1990, Schiavo (pronounced SHY-voh, IPA: ) suffered severe brain damage from cerebral hypoxia, after experiencing cardiac arrest from an undetermined cause. She briefly lapsed into a coma, and then spent the remaining 15 years of her life in a persistent vegetative state (PVS). Seven neurologists in good standing who examined Schiavo diagnosed her to be in a PVS. One whose standing has been questioned, Dr. William Hammesfahr, said she was minimally conscious. Another neurologist, in good standing, Dr. William P. Cheshire Jr., after having visited Schiavo, stated that he questioned the diagnoses of PVS.  Many other medical professionals submitted affidavits  or statements to the press questioning the PVS diagnosis and calling for further testing. For example, three of the four neurologists recently interviewed (Dr. Mack Jones, a neurologist in Florida; Dr. Thomas Zabiega, a neurologist in Chicago; Dr. William Bell, a professor of neurology at the Wake Forest University Medical School) reported that they believed that Terri was responding to her father, and was attempting to form words. The fourth, Dr. Peter Morin, a neurologist researching degenerative brain diseases, demurred, saying that he did not want to venture an opinion based on an audio recording without accompanying video.  Thus, it is no surprise that much controversy arose over whether her condition was irreversible or treatable.
::Gordon, please be careful that the Mediation page does not turn into an auto-move for the Talk:Terri Schiavo page.  It disturbs me that people aren't talking to each other enough there.--ghost 14:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Grace, I think the resistance to "is PVS" is somewhat pendantic. basically, the phrase "diagnosed PVS" is active tense, and brings with it the implication that a human gave testimony about Terri's condition. The phrase "is PVS" is passive tense, and implies absolute truth, it also ignores individual testimony and makes blanket statement. Now, I think Terri was PVS. But I can be happy reporting that 7 neurologist diagnosed her to be PVS, and one quack said otherwise. Those convinced that Terri was sneaking out at night to play tennis will never be convinced otherwise, so it doesn't really matter what the wording says to them. I think most people who come in with an unbiased background can read the facts/history of the case in the article and will get where reality is. So, while I think Terri was PVS, I'm not averse to reporting that seven neurologists diagnosed her PVS. FuelWagon 15:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the "diagnosed as" phrasing is essentially a nod to possibility that other POVs exist.  I personally agree that Terri was, but we create the appearence of POV by stating it in a fact-like manner.  Better to fall back more open language that still states fact in the intro.  This way we prevent "driveby" reader from feeling compelled to engage in the upteenth edit war over the intro.  It may not be the best solution, but if it cools down the debate over the article as a whole, it's a good thing.--ghost 15:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Ghost, there weree at least two versions of the old intro. One of them had most or all of the above, and included "euthanasia," the main point that debate sparked (see my analyses -plural of analysis -in archive/reboot). The other version omitted "Euthanasia." So, you'll have to find the diff or suggest the language you prefer. I prefer mentioning ALL of them: I'm an [inclusionist].--GordonWattsDotCom 01:21, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Key Points: YOUR '''VOTE''' IS NEEDED HERE

message: *--GordonWattsDotCom 01:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Grace, I think the resistance to "is PVS" is somewhat pendantic. basically, the phrase "diagnosed PVS" is active tense, and brings with it the implication that a human gave testimony about Terri's condition. The phrase "is PVS" is passive tense, and implies absolute truth, it also ignores individual testimony and makes blanket statement. Now, I think Terri was PVS. But I can be happy reporting that 7 neurologist diagnosed her to be PVS, and one quack said otherwise. Those convinced that Terri was sneaking out at night to play tennis will never be convinced otherwise, so it doesn't really matter what the wording says to them. I think most people who come in with an unbiased background can read the facts/history of the case in the article and will get where reality is. So, while I think Terri was PVS, I'm not averse to reporting that seven neurologists diagnosed her PVS. FuelWagon 15:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the "diagnosed as" phrasing is essentially a nod to possibility that other POVs exist.  I personally agree that Terri was, but we create the appearence of POV by stating it in a fact-like manner.  Better to fall back more open language that still states fact in the intro.  This way we prevent "driveby" reader from feeling compelled to engage in the upteenth edit war over the intro.  It may not be the best solution, but if it cools down the debate over the article as a whole, it's a good thing.--ghost 15:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How do we address "PVS" issue in intro?

message: *--GordonWattsDotCom 01:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How do we address "quantity" of doctors in intro?

message: *--GordonWattsDotCom 01:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How do we address "quality" of doctors in intro

message: *My vote is explained in this exact diff at 16:01, 10 July 2005 in Schiavo talk: While both the Spanish (es.wikipedia.org) and Chinese wiki's (zh.wikipedia.org) say such things as that the Schiavo situation sparked much debate over Euthanasia, Bioethics, Federalism, Guardianship, Civil Rights, etc... Please notice that while these two wiki's are not exactly the same, nonetheless, BOTH of them include "Euthanasia" as an item where it notes that it sparked debate; Plus, google.com confirms that Euthanaisa was a top item in debate, as do the older versions of the English (American Language) wiki (en.wikipedia.org) -and my own notes on what sparked debate on what. That is my vote.--GordonWattsDotCom 02:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ghost, there weree at least two versions of the old intro. One of them had most or all of the above, and included "euthanasia," the main point that debate sparked (see my analyses -plural of analysis -in archive/reboot). The other version omitted "Euthanasia." So, you'll have to find the diff or suggest the language you prefer. I prefer mentioning ALL of them: I'm an [inclusionist].--GordonWattsDotCom 01:21, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Which other issues should be mentioned in intro re: "generated much controversy?"

message: *A quick look at the article finds that it mentions the Florida Law definition of PVS in certain places; Article mentions motion "...to Provide Terri with Food and Water by Natural Means," and Greer denial but OMITS main dispute opponents had with Greer's decision, namely that Terri's parents (and others too) think it violated felony law, arguably the most important dispute regarding Greer. Article mentions Terri_Schiavo#Rehabilitation_efforts by family but OMITS 744.3215(1)(i), the "rehabilitation" law cited by Terri's parents' lawyers (and many disability advocates). These laws too should be mentioned in article. Article NOWHERE mentions when (or why?) handicapped Terri was put in hospice, nor does it mention critics repeatedly disputed as a violation of 400.6095(2), state law, which restricts hospice admission to patients with "diagnosis and prognosis of terminal illness." It is not Wikipedia's policy to "take sides," but the law here deals with hospoce placement and should be cited: We report. You decide.--GordonWattsDotCom 03:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The article cites certain laws; Which others should be mentioned?

message: Should the article mention that “cerebral cortex missing” claims by Felos were disproven by autopsy? Yes, probably; however, if you give Felos a free pass, then, to be NPOV, you must do the same for Hammesfahr, and others, to whom you would lob criticism.--GordonWattsDotCom 03:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Should the article mention additional credibility problems?

message: Example include: "Advocacy/Commentary" or links to his "court cases" pages, or other useful links, stored in this exact diff of Archive 24 of Terri Schiavo's talk page.
*--GordonWattsDotCom 03:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Should we add additional links, such as those to Gordon Watts' sites?

message: We're all very busy, so here's some links that may help:
:Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation/summaries - Here you'll find summaries by most of the original mediation editors.
:Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Archive 17 - Here you'll find the original request that I submitted, that was later endorsed by others.
I believe the following items need mediation:
*POV issues surrounding Ms. Schiavo's condition (PVS, MVS, etc.) 
*POV issues surrounding the legal status Ms. Schiavo's family (legal guardianship of Terri; Michael's relationships; etc.) 
*POV issues regarding terminology discussing the judge's ruling(s) 
*Behavior on the Talk Page 
I hope this helps clarify what the issues were.  We have made progress, glacial though it may seem.--ghost 02:29, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested links 

message: I would like to declare this Mediation a success. There is substantial agreement on key points, and Slim & Fuel are back on speaking terms.
I spent a lot of time on this, but I would like to take a wiki-vacation until August 1st. Those who agree, please sign below. Uncle Ed 00:17, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
Success:
#--GordonWattsDotCom 01:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If I may allowed some humor....Does Gordon voting on both sides of the item count as a hanging or dimpled chad?  Gordon, as our Floridian, perhaps you'll know.  LOL, just kidding....--ghost 02:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: HA ha! By the way, I "led the push" to get the recount of ...the 2002 debacle, for Democrat Janet Reno's votes. Hmm... I'm a concervative republican, but she was (illegally) denied. I lost that lawsuit too.--GordonWattsDotCom 05:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turning point 

message: :If I may allowed some humor....Does Gordon voting on both sides of the item count as a hanging or dimpled chad?  Gordon, as our Floridian, perhaps you'll know.  LOL, just kidding....--ghost 02:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: HA ha! By the way, I "led the push" to get the recount of ...the 2002 debacle, for Democrat Janet Reno's votes. Hmm... I'm a concervative republican, but she was (illegally) denied. I lost that lawsuit too.--GordonWattsDotCom 05:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: ===Terri Schiavo===
Terri Schiavo (December 3, 1963–March 31, 2005), was a St. Petersburg, Florida woman whose medical circumstances and attendant legal battles led to landmark court decisions, historic legislative initiatives, and intense media attention. 
On February 25, 1990, Schiavo (pronounced SHY-voh, IPA: ) suffered severe brain damage from cerebral hypoxia, after experiencing cardiac arrest from an undetermined cause. She lapsed into a coma for two months, and spent the last 15 years of her life in a condition diagnosed as an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS). This diagnosis was disputed by Schiavo's parents and became the center of a court battle. Eight neurologists examined Schiavo. Seven of those diagnosed her to be in a PVS, a diagnosis supported by two guardians ad litem. One neurologist, Dr. William Hammesfahr, diagnosed her to be in a "minimally conscious state" (MCS). The court found Hammesfahr's diagnosis lacked credibility, noting that his vasodilatation therapy was not recognized in the medical community,and ruled Schiavo to be in a PVS. Her parents appealed this decision, but in every appeal, the courts ruled that she was in a PVS. 

Schiavo's parents disputed many decisions made by her husband and legal guardian, as well as issues such as guardianship, level of care, end-of-life wishes, life support, and level of consciousness. There were also charges of physical abuse and neglect. Litigation lasted several years, and some issues reached the United States Supreme Court. The final decisions by the courts were that Schiavo was in a PVS and would not want to be kept on life support in her condition. The court ordered her gastric feeding tube removed. Appeals caused the feeding tube to be reinserted twice.
During the last few weeks of her life, Schiavo's parents took their case to the Governor of Florida, the United States Senate, and the President of the United States. This resulted in several legislative initiatives, including Terri's Law, which were struck down by the courts. Schiavo's feeding tube was removed a third and final time on March 18, 2005, 13 days before she died.
On March 23, 2005, a week before she died, another neurologist, Dr. William P. Cheshire Jr., filed an affidavit questioning the PVS diagnosis. This was based on a visit he had made to Schiavo on March 14.  Her parents filed a motion to the courts including the affidavit from Cheshire. The court found insufficient new evidence to appeal the ruling that Schiavo was in a PVS. She died on March 31, 2005 at around 9:05 a.m. EST. An autopsy report was released on June 15, 2005. Although an autopsy cannot confirm a clinical diagnosis related to a patient's level of consciousness, the pathologic findings of the autopsy were all consistent with someone in a PVS.  (pdf)
.com/mld/miamiherald/living/health/11011204.htm]
 
====See also====
*Terri Schindler: Early Life
*Terri Schindler: Initial medical crisis
*Terri Schindler: Rehabilitation efforts
*Terri Schindler's malpractice suit
*Michael Schiavo
*PVS and the law
*Terri Schindler's family 
*Terri Schiavo I
*Terri Schiavo II
*Terri Schiavo III
*Terri Schiavo IV
*Terri Schiavo diagnosis
*Public opinion and activism in the Terri Schiavo case
*Terri Schiavo's Death
*Terri Schiavo Autopsy
*Terri Schiavo Memorial
4.250.138.148 20:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "pare the article down"

message: Terri Schiavo (December 3, 1963–March 31, 2005), was a St. Petersburg, Florida woman whose medical circumstances and attendant legal battles led to landmark court decisions, historic legislative initiatives, and intense media attention. 
On February 25, 1990, Schiavo (pronounced SHY-voh, IPA: ) suffered severe brain damage from cerebral hypoxia, after experiencing cardiac arrest from an undetermined cause. She lapsed into a coma for two months, and spent the last 15 years of her life in a condition diagnosed as an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS). This diagnosis was disputed by Schiavo's parents and became the center of a court battle. Eight neurologists examined Schiavo. Seven of those diagnosed her to be in a PVS, a diagnosis supported by two guardians ad litem. One neurologist, Dr. William Hammesfahr, diagnosed her to be in a "minimally conscious state" (MCS). The court found Hammesfahr's diagnosis lacked credibility, noting that his vasodilatation therapy was not recognized in the medical community,and ruled Schiavo to be in a PVS. Her parents appealed this decision, but in every appeal, the courts ruled that she was in a PVS. 

Schiavo's parents disputed many decisions made by her husband and legal guardian, as well as issues such as guardianship, level of care, end-of-life wishes, life support, and level of consciousness. There were also charges of physical abuse and neglect. Litigation lasted several years, and some issues reached the United States Supreme Court. The final decisions by the courts were that Schiavo was in a PVS and would not want to be kept on life support in her condition. The court ordered her gastric feeding tube removed. Appeals caused the feeding tube to be reinserted twice.
During the last few weeks of her life, Schiavo's parents took their case to the Governor of Florida, the United States Senate, and the President of the United States. This resulted in several legislative initiatives, including Terri's Law, which were struck down by the courts. Schiavo's feeding tube was removed a third and final time on March 18, 2005, 13 days before she died.
On March 23, 2005, a week before she died, another neurologist, Dr. William P. Cheshire Jr., filed an affidavit questioning the PVS diagnosis. This was based on a visit he had made to Schiavo on March 14.  Her parents filed a motion to the courts including the affidavit from Cheshire. The court found insufficient new evidence to appeal the ruling that Schiavo was in a PVS. She died on March 31, 2005 at around 9:05 a.m. EST. An autopsy report was released on June 15, 2005. Although an autopsy cannot confirm a clinical diagnosis related to a patient's level of consciousness, the pathologic findings of the autopsy were all consistent with someone in a PVS.  (pdf)
.com/mld/miamiherald/living/health/11011204.htm]
 
====See also====
*Terri Schindler: Early Life
*Terri Schindler: Initial medical crisis
*Terri Schindler: Rehabilitation efforts
*Terri Schindler's malpractice suit
*Michael Schiavo
*PVS and the law
*Terri Schindler's family 
*Terri Schiavo I
*Terri Schiavo II
*Terri Schiavo III
*Terri Schiavo IV
*Terri Schiavo diagnosis
*Public opinion and activism in the Terri Schiavo case
*Terri Schiavo's Death
*Terri Schiavo Autopsy
*Terri Schiavo Memorial
4.250.138.148 20:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Terri Schiavo

message: *Terri Schindler: Early Life
*Terri Schindler: Initial medical crisis
*Terri Schindler: Rehabilitation efforts
*Terri Schindler's malpractice suit
*Michael Schiavo
*PVS and the law
*Terri Schindler's family 
*Terri Schiavo I
*Terri Schiavo II
*Terri Schiavo III
*Terri Schiavo IV
*Terri Schiavo diagnosis
*Public opinion and activism in the Terri Schiavo case
*Terri Schiavo's Death
*Terri Schiavo Autopsy
*Terri Schiavo Memorial
4.250.138.148 20:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: See also