Talk:Derecho

message: The statement is made at least twice in the article that a jet stream split is critical to the formation of a derecho.  Without an authoritative citation, that's gonna have to go.  In fact, the jet stream splits all the time without a derecho forming, in many places across the globe.  In fact, the upper winds may diverge ("split") because they're forced to by the strong updraft of the MSC from which derechos may develop, i.e. a result, not a cause.  The essential cause of a derecho is a storm that produces many downbursts which eventually merge into a single windstream.  The type of MSC that can produce these multiple downbursts is one where there is little shear through the atmosphere.  With shear, the result is tornadic.  Without, a derecho. Tmangray (talk) 22:16, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: MSC?  Is that similar to MCS? (serious question, not baiting)  Notice I'm not a member of the severe weather project, even if I help improve severe articles to GA or FA from time to time.  The references I'm finding imply you can have significant shear with derechos, particularly during the cold season.  It depends what you mean by little shear.  If it's too little, you just have an unorganized Florida pulse thunderstorm.  Sounds like you should be helping out.  Please, help.  I've been attempting to add references, which usually causes refined wording with time.  =)  Thegreatdr (talk) 22:41, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I meant MCC (mesocyclone complex).  The fingers typed too fast.  Sure, it's matter of comparative shear.  In a tornadic setup, it's tremendous.  There may be some in the derecho setups, but nowhere near the same degree, hence the linearity of the winds.  The sources I've seen refer to upper wind momentum being carried down to the surface, and downburst winds lining up with the ambient near-surface winds, thus giving additive velocity to the derecho winds.  My own observation (which won't fly as authoritive on its own of course) is that "true" derechos (usually referred to as "progressive") occur where a low or mid level warm-sector jet hits a frontal boundary.  The frontal lifting, plus the buoyancy of the warm air, plus the momentum of the low level jet creates the large thunderstorm complex.  The combining and linearity of the downbursts is imposed by the linearity of ambient winds along the frontal boundary at all levels, and maximized at the level of the upper jet.  All these ingredients tend to come together just about this time of year in the northern tier states.  Oh well, maybe a licensed expert can jump in and verify.Tmangray (talk) 00:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't sound terribly different than the sources I've read so far.  The low-level jet causes the high amounts of moisture tapped, the systems form in an environment of warm air advection near a boundary (frontal or mesoscale), and vertical wind shear helps to organize the convection by separating the downdraft from the storm-related inflow.  Its forward motion is caused by the downburst/downdrafts in its rear...which would be helped out by mid-level dry air.  All severe weather seems to be caused by these ingredients...it's just a question of the relative contributions of helicity/wind shear and bouyancy, it seems.  Thegreatdr (talk) 02:11, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree with that.  What I do challenge is the proposition that a JET SPLIT is key.  Derechos do seem to form most often along stationary fronts ahead of an upper level trough where the upper winds are diverging, and where a low to mid level warm jet feeds into the divergence.  That's upper wind divergence, not a jet split.Tmangray (talk) 00:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsupported assertion re: jet split

message: There are slightly tighter constraints regarding actual "derecho" classification.  They have to last at least 400km with 3 reports of winds 33 m/s  or greater. Also no more than 3 hours can elapse between any two reports of >25 m/s winds.  I know NWA/AMS journals and U.S. NWS guidelines follow that but I can't find a web citation. It's a pretty important point because for all intents and purposes what is and isn't a "derecho" is much more of an academic point than one of meteorological significance. I figured I would bring it up and let the wiki-experts handle it.  (Bigme100 13:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Derecho criteria

message: Hum! These cities were hit three times, July 7 1991, July 13 1995 & May 31, 1998 very hard (and actually the second labor day derecho in 98 started in that area too, so it could very well be four). So I guess Detroit has detrone St-Louis and Grand Rapids. Also the Ottawa-Gatineau region(although not all) were hit also three times July 15, 1995 (south end), July 5, 1999 (Quebec-side) and July 17, 2006 (again Quebec, but also northwest and north east portion of the city) and the city of Gatineau.
So, we will probably have to modify some sections. I've put the tag on that section as a result--JForget 01:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What about Detroit and Windsor?

message: This is virtually just about US and Canada (with one small mention about Germany, maybe if someone can find something for other continents, that would make this article better.--JForget 05:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference I added indicates that the term is used almost exclusively for storms in North America. Even if the phenomenon does occur elsewhere, it's called something different and so isn't really under the perogative of this article. A short "Other derecho-like weather" section may be all that's warranted. Bryan Derksen 07:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Any responses? As far as I can tell from my interpretation of the reference I found, the globalization template is inappropriate and I'm probably going to take it off again soon. Bryan Derksen 06:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be hard to believe similar systems don't form over Europe, Asia, or Australia.  I think this is why someone stuck the tag on it.  I got stuck with a similar tag regarding dry line some months back.  Thegreatdr 11:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the source states, while similar systems form elsewhere in the world, it seems that the term "derecho" is only used for them in North America, with no specific term for them elsewhere--except maybe "windstorm," which is what I (just barely) remember the "More Trees Down" Derecho being called when it happened.  (I was three-and-a-half years old when it happened, and I have a distant memory of my parents getting me out of bed and moving me to an air mattress under my dad's model railroad in the basement in case it did structural damage to the house.)  Rdfox 76 14:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I thought I had said this, but I was mistaken.  Derechos do occur elsewhere and there is formal scientific literature out there in journals and conferences.  Here are a few examples: Lopez (2006), Gatzen (2004), Punkka, et al (2006).  Evolauxia (talk) 04:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

text: We had a derecho here in Wichita Falls last week.  The local paper carried a couple of stories about the term and the kind of storm for which it is used.  It seems that not only are derechos themselves rare, but term is rare as well.  If it is a technical or field-specific term in meteorology, then there should be corresponding terms for the same kind of storm used by meteorologists in other languages.  I don't see why this article cannot cover this issue plainly. -Acjelen 00:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Geographic scope limited

message: I here that this beautiful type of storm is on the rise! is that true? If so there will be more editing on this!--Takaomi I. Shimoi 16:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a specific article linked to the Mid-Atlantic Derecho.  It should be reflected in that article, not this one.  This is the general overarching article for the term, not specific events.  Thegreatdr (talk) 20:25, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Increasing numbers 

message: Is this along the lines of "El Nino", some hokey spanishesque weather term that went from unknown to a news buzzword? Sure, the NOAA has a "history" page saying the term goes back to 1888, but how widespread is the actual use? Ever been in print? Any news reporter use it more than 10 years ago? All the references seem to be circular and point back to the same NOAA page... Gront (talk) 10:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm... Most of the "Derecho" events on the NOAA page only exist there, on wikipedia, and people using wikipedia as a reference. Shenanigans?  Gront (talk) 10:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't call El Nino (or Derecho) a "hokey spanishesque" term or a buzzword. Just because the public has only recently become aware of the term (and the phenomenon it describes), doesn't mean the term is somehow contrived or irrelevant. Every field of science has jargon that probably sounds silly to a layperson. This jargon is necessary for scientists to communicate efficiently with each other. I fully support exposing non-scientists to these terms. Sure, maybe most people will obnoxiously overuse the term for a few months, but hopefully a few will gain lasting knowledge. Emmastaffron (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My curiosity into the word "derecho" was piqued by a news story today, and the focus of my curiosity was why I've never heard of the term before. This entry in the Talk page indicates a similar situation 12 years ago? This page and the linked list of "derecho events" indicates it isn't a rare phenomenon, but the word isn't used much. (More evidence in that my spelling checker is rejecting it.) Seems like most weather reports have used sloppy (or at least vague) terms like "line of storms" or "weather system" to describe such events? It's kind of a meta-topic, but the Article as I read it didn't seem to help much. Shanen (talk) 19:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: History of the term and actual use?

message: Although derecho can sometimes mean "right", in this context, its usual meaning of "straight", is applicable, probably shortened from "viento derecho" (straight-line wind).  There's no sense in this wind being named "right". Tmangray (talk) 23:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The storm systems tend to be right-movers.  Before I looked it up, I assumed that's why they were called derecho.  Derecho/a can mean straight, right, or upright, depending upon the context.  The section can't be deleted since it's well-referenced.  Thegreatdr (talk) 23:45, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

text: It means “right” as in “your rights” (law) or “do what's right” (correct), as well as the direction “to the right”. Nothing about it means “straight”, but rather English's usage of “right” to for correct which straight can be a synonym in that sense, but not direction-wise. -- sion8 Contributions | Tᴀʟᴋ ᴘᴀɢᴇ 05:00, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: You think someone could get a better radar image than an B&W image from 1969?  Mathias1979 (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radar imagery 

message: I can't find it, but on the NWS site for Paducah, Kentucky, there is a radar image of the storm that ripped through Kansas to Southern Illinois a couple weeks ago - as far as I know it was a Derecho, the radar image shows a defined eye and two arms, kinda like a galaxy.  I was in Illinois and it was awful.... 68000 without power for 3-5 days... massive damage that we're still cleaning up, roofs, entire houses, cars destroyed... 150 year old trees uprooted...  not a beautiful storm if you are in it's path!  
66.186.96.11 (talk) 08:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radar image 

message: It looks like this article is confused between "derechoes" and "derechos" as the plural for derecho. Can someone who knows more about Spanish correct this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.235.82.235 (talk) 14:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not an expert in spanish, but I'm fairly certain that to make spanish words plural in most cases you just add an "s" and NOT "es." For example, the plural of libro (book) is libros. Should probably wait for someone who has taken more than three years of high school spanish to confirm this though.Cheerioswithmilk (talk) 17:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derechoes? 

message: First heard the term Derecho today describing the storms moving through Arkansas. The description of Derecho fits what hit - the speed of the storm was amazing - and we have damage and power outages state wide from the winds which peaked at 60-70 mph, reports of possible tornadoes, rain and hail. The pictures on local tv websites of the storms moving across the state are similar to the pics in this article. Radar now shows the storms have moved over Alabama and another system with the same configuration over the Dallas area - which seems to be headed this way. I don't know if the storms today meet all of the criteria but I would rather not see one again whatever it's called. Tchwnttb (talk) 04:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derecho? 

message: With the hullaballoo about the Mid-Atlantic Storm (29 June-30 June 2012), derecho has become a subject more people would want to know about because they have never heard of it before.
My first reaction:  Why did a brilliant German/Danish immigrant in Iowa in the 1880s when Iowa was largely populated by people of Scandinavian and German descent and the nearest Spanish-speaker was llikely in Texas use a Spanish word to describe this phenomenon?  If a quick footnote or mention of this in the article, it would answer a question that many, myself among others, might have.  If anyone has an answer to this, please let me know.  I'm very curious. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems, from looking at the cross-references, that the usual term in English is "squall line" and there is a kind of squall line that forms a "bow echo", and the use of the term "derecho" is an attempt to Spanishize (and incidentally, misname, because the bow echo is curved, not straight) these terms. Another term used in English, also cross-referenced, is "gust front". There doesn't seem to be a reason for it, except to appeal to Spanish-speakers using the media to inform themselves of the event (i. e. political correctness in the media).  Even better, wikipedia says that a "derecho" in Pakistan is called a "Nor'easter."  I have nothing against the use of a Spanish word where no English word will do, but here, English words have been in use for centuries and should be perfectly acceptable.  I question the need for a separate article.  Why not just add "also known as a 'derecho'" to the article on "squall line"?  Has NOAA said that "derecho" is their preferred term for this? 72.179.53.2 (talk) 20:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Derecho" was chosen in 1886, because the person who coined the term believed the then-commonly accepted etymology of the word "tornado" as being derived from the Spanish "tornar," meaning "to turn."  Since the phenomenon he was describing did tornado-like damage over a vast area through straightline (as opposed to rotating) winds, he used the Spanish word for "straight" to describe it.  The NWS has a specific definition of derecho; not all squall lines qualify as derechoes (they need to generate winds of 58 miles per hour or more over a distance of at least 250 miles), and not all derechoes form actual squall lines.  The gust front is a component of the storm, not the storm itself.  This is similar to the difference between a tornado, a supercell, and a mesocyclone.  rdfox 76 (talk) 00:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We weather forecasters are in no way trying to "spanishize" anything. A derecho is a subtype of bow echo which in turn is a subtype of squall line. Any line of showers or thunderstorms accompanied by any wind is a squall line. Any squall line in the shape of a bow is a bow echo. However, only a bow echo or group of bow echos traveling at least 240 miles all the while remaining severe (i.e. >=58 MPH winds) is a derecho. Straight does not refer to the shape of the storm, but rather to the direction of the winds which blow straight out away from the storm. Not only that, but the derecho is actually the gust front which blows along the front edge of the derecho, composed of hundreds of downbursts. The bow echo is a feature which supports downbursts and indicates them on radar, similar to the relationship between a mesocyclone/tornado vortex signature and a tornado itself.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bowser423 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

text: I think it's clear that the term "derecho" was coined as a counterpart to "tornado".  In one sense, they represent opposites.  Ferocious straight-line winds associated with a thunderstorm versus ferocious turning winds.Tmangray (talk) 00:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: NOAA has some good information on Hinrichs, the origin of the term, andthe storms themselves.  The latter has a number of very nice images which are public domain.   Sagredo⊙☿♀♁♂♃♄ 23:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the Spanish term?

message: The parts in bold are too technical for a WP:LEAD
"The lead should normally contain no more than four paragraphs, be carefully sourced as appropriate, and be written in a clear, accessible style"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JKshaw (talk • contribs) 04:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: His concerns are legitimate. The lead is quite technical. Bzweebl  (talk • contribs) 02:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I made some edits to wikilink more of the terms in the lead to help out, and made one wording change.  Someone better able to convert jargon to lay speak would be able to help out more here.  GAN, peer review, and FAC will hopefully address this concern, because it won't become a Good Article if it has too much unintelligible jargon.  Thegreatdr (talk) 20:27, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:LEAD 

message: Now that the article is getting over 100,000 hits per day, which will likely subside soon, there are some interesting things creeping in which occasionally have to get thrown into a better article.  I agree that Pepco is way lax on tree trimming in MD (and have been since at least 2001)...but come on, does that fit the scope of the Derecho article?  A better place for this information would be within the Pepco article or perhaps an article about wind damage or even the article about the most recent derecho.  I believe it is beyond the scope of this article, and is verging on undue weight.  If it is decided to keep this information, it needs to be trimmed back.  Thegreatdr (talk) 03:50, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoever is putting this crap in the article is obviously an anti-business Luddite or Marxist ideologue, using every opportunity they can to take gratuitous digs at private enterprise.  I've modified the paragraph to indicate that most of the damage to the power infrastructure of the June 2012 North American derecho was due to people objecting to power companies trimming trees, as happened in Maryland, where power outages are/were most severe.  I don't have a reference to add in support, as I heard it on the radio a couple of days ago, but this should be easy enough to verify.  Power companies don't leave trees up that could fall on lines and destroy them, because subsequent repair is expensive and when customers don't have power, they aren't generating revenue.  To imply otherwise is just plain stupid.  I live in Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) territory on the U.S. west coast, and I see constant tree trimming and removal going on under and near power lines.  We don't hear much about trees shorting out power lines in this area, even in the most severe winter storms; outages are more often caused by someone crashing into a power pole or a transformer failing. — QuicksilverT @ 15:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

text: I have to concur. Whatever the motives of the material about profits and liability, how relevant can it be to derechos in Canada or Bangladesh? Unless someone defends this, it should be removed; if no one else wants to, I will. Scutigera (talk) 16:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Thegreatdr (talk) 20:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Powerline and tree maintenance?  Really? 

message: http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/cle/wx_events/2012/June/29/derechoclimo.png  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.179.155.183 (talk) 23:45, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur.  It has been added.  =)  Thegreatdr (talk) 20:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Map that could be interesting for the article

message: *If 2 separate bow echos separately produce damaging winds for 250 miles and merge after that forming a multi-bow serial derecho, is it 1 derecho (the sum of all), 2 derechos (the 2 original, doesn't matter that they combined later) or 3 derechos (because each met the criteria individually and the combined one is a multi-bow, which is a different kind)?
*If a bow echo produces 300 miles of damage and splits into 2 separate bow echos which each continue to cause damaging winds, is this 1, 2, or 3 derechos?
*If a bow echo produces a 150 mile swath of damage, stops for 50 miles, and does another 150 miles of damage, is this a derecho?
*If a bow echo produces 300 miles of damage, stops for 50 miles, and then produces 300 miles of additional damage, is this two separate derechos?
*If a bow echo produces 300 miles of damage, stops for 50 miles, and then produces 100 miles of additional damage, is the storm still a derecho as it goes through that last 100 miles?
Major classification questions.  --Bowser the Storm Tracker  Chat Me Up 21:00, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What, exactly, constitutes a derecho 

message: Following is the development section from the NOAA page about derechos.  It is public domain, and could be copied, although perhaps some rewriting is in order.  
(courtesy U.S. [National Weather Service and National Severe Storms Laboratory])
# Derecho development necessarily is tied to the formation of bow echoes. A bow echo usually arises from a cluster of thunderstorms, but also may evolve from a single strong storm. Bow echoes most frequently occur when tropospheric winds are relatively strong and unidirectional (i.e., they vary little in direction with height). As the rain-cooled downdraft of a thunderstorm reaches the earth's surface, it spreads horizontally, most rapidly in the direction of the mean tropospheric flow. As the cool, dense air spreads outward, it forces the lighter, warm and moist air surrounding the storm up along the leading edge of the outflow, or gust front (see figure 1.), with mean flow assumed to be from left to right). The upward motion along the gust front typically is greatest along that part of the front that is moving most rapidly, that is, in the downwind direction (to the right in figure 1). Gust fronts often are marked by a band of ominous, low clouds known as "arcus."http://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm#development
# The development of a thunderstorm's downdraft ordinarily marks the dissipation stage of that particular storm. But air forced up along a gust front can give birth to new thunderstorms. As new storms mature, the rain they produce reinforces the existing "pool" of rain-cooled air produced by earlier storms, allowing the gust front to maintain its strength. As this cold pool increases in size and elongates in the direction of the mean wind, it may induce an inflow of air known as the "rear-inflow jet" (dashed brown arrow in figure below) on the trailing side of the thunderstorm complex. This causes the updraft to tilt toward the rear side of the storm (i.e., to the left in figure 2). Tilting of the updraft allows the thunderstorm to further expand, increasing the aerial coverage of the rain. This, in turn, adds to the pool of cold air accumulating beneath the storm and strengthens the gust front, causing it to bow outward in the downwind direction. The resulting acceleration in forward motion of the gust front subsequently forces more warm, moist air upward, creating still more storms, and the process repeats.http://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm#development
# The rain produced by the newer storms reinforces the cold pool, strengthening the inflow of air from the back side of the developing storm complex and encouraging the downward transport of higher momentum air from aloft. These processes can enable the system to attain a nearly steady-state condition. At this point, the convective system typically exhibits a pronounced bow shape on radar (figure 3), with an area of moderate to occasionally heavy rain located near the center of the cold pool, well behind the arc of intense rain immediately behind the gust front. As long as the thermodynamic and kinematic environment support the continued development of new thunderstorms along the advancing gust front, the convective complex will persist, along with the potential for downbursts and microbursts. http://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm#development
I generally follow science pretty well, but what we have now has way too many technical terms.  The layman would have to look up each one to figure out what is written.  
I would follow the above with a pruned version of the last paragraph:
During the cold season within the Northern Hemisphere, derechos generally develop within a pattern of southwesterly winds at mid levels of the troposphere in an environment of low to moderate atmospheric instability (caused by heat and moisture near ground level or cooler air moving in aloft.  Warm season derechos in the Northern Hemisphere form in west to northwesterly flow at mid levels of the troposphere with moderate to high levels of instability.  Derechos form within environments of low-level warm air advection and significant low-level moisture.
Sagredo⊙☿♀♁♂♃♄ 00:41, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  DERECHO DEVELOPMENT 

message: Whats the difference? The difference should be made clearer, otherwise the entry on single-bow serial derechos should be removed.ZFT (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Single-bow serial derecho vs. progressive derecho 

message: I've boldly merged the content of the Super-Derecho with the Characteristics section of this page. Near as I can tell, there is very little literature on super-derechos as a phenomena (at least as the wiki article defined them), or on "landphoons", "inland hurricanes", or any of the other names by which the aforementioned article has gone. There are a few cases of derechos with impressive embedded mesolows, but it's not our place to decide whether they represent anything "super". Seeing as there is really no suitable title for an article discussing hurricane-like MCSs, I think it's best to house the minimal descriptive info on landphoons, etc. the main derecho article; specific case studies are better handled in individual storm event articles. – Juliancolton | Talk 16:04, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge of [[Super-Derecho]] article 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Ten years on and the Landphoon term is a redirect to this article - and this still seems to be about America and the spanish term - yet landphoons exist in Australia and have been identified as such - the question is - a separate article for beyond the American context ? - or an imporvement of this article - anyone ? JarrahTree 08:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ten years 

message: Article says March - May. Should it say Dec - Feb? 70.67.171.167 (talk) 17:23, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southern summer 

message: Derecho in a very small writing 2601:589:8481:CF70:E53B:582:2CD2:FEE9 (talk) 21:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reading