Talk:Pierre Trudeau/Archive 1

message: This article is very much tooled to be liberal friendly. It is not neutral in its point of view.

:Please, be more specific in your complaints and wait for responses before putting the box up.  I don't understand why you would think of it as "Very much tooled to be "liberal friendly".  Mentioned many times are the economic troubles, the Western alienation, the Quebec attitude towards him.Habsfannova 18:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: Can someone please find a picture of him when he was Prime Minister?  The old-man look gives a very different impression of his time in office.Arctic.gnome 08:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pic

message: Changed the sentence in the beginning that stated the draft sent many men to war, while Trudeau avoided it. This was completely inaccurate, the Canadian draft was instituted in 1940 and was known as the National Resources Mobilization Act, and did not send men to war. Only volunteers saw combat service, while conscripts such as Trudeau saw duty in Canada with the home guard. By 1944, facing a manpower shortage due to the situation in Europe, some conscripts were sent for combat during the Conscription Crisis of 1944 but few actually saw combat and even fewer were killed. As mentioned in my edit, Trudeau was willing to get involved in the war but felt doing so would betray Quebec. So I hope the edit Isn't going to cause much controversy. mhunter
:What you said is misleading.  Thousands of Canadians were drafted and went overseas, and many died in the brutal fighting near the end of the war in Europe.  The text you left, is clearly written by a Trudeau fan.  It reflects, how most Canadians know more about George W Bush's war record, than their own Trudeau.  At the moment, I have no interest in a revert war.  I won't trade one POV with another.  The honorable thing is to remove your misleading edits.  Sadly, there are some topics which Canadians can not have an honest discussion about.  --rob 29 June 2005 10:16 (UTC)
Rob, I think you should provide some evidence for your accusatio that the edits are misleading. mhunter has provided a link to an article that makes it clear that Canadian conscripts were not sent to Europe until very late in 1944. I think an important part of an "honest discussion" is concrete evidence. Thanks. Ground Zero
:OK, I have come back to make a slight improvement.  I mentioned *some* conscripts, drafted *later* were sent overseas.  Also, the assertion he was willing to take part in the war, was changed to state "he said" he was silling.  We don't know if he actually was willing.  People can read his actions and his words, and decide for themselves, what was in his mind, if they wish.  This article still has a pro-Trudeau slant in this section.  But, hopefully it's better now.  --rob 21:29, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Conscription

message: I rearranged the last paragraph so that the positive remarks were in the same place. I put the positive remarks last because that's generally the way to leave the most positive impression, and I don't want to sandbag the article to leave a negative impression (which is, on balance, the impression I have of Mr. Trudeau). Anyway, his final reputation will probably depend on events which have yet to occur. Trontonian 18:41, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Why I re-arranged the last paragraph

message: The finger article says showing the middle finger is called the "Trudeau salute" in Canada. Why's this so ? I didn't find a mention of this in this article. Jay 11:42, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Because of a famous photo of him giving the finger to some protesters. He was well known for telling people what he thought of them. I would rather see that photo, the 'walk in the snow' photo, the canoe photo, or one of the rock star groupie photos used as an portrait, as they're much more representive of him. jericho4.0 00:49, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've copied over your explanation to that article. Are there any external links to the famous photo ? Jay 10:14, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Trudeau salute

message: I see my comment about double jeopardy was removed because the Charter says that someone finally acquitted is not subject to further prosecution. The loophole is finally – i. e., by the Supreme Court. The Crown still appeals acquittals. If you remember Guy-Paul Morin, his acquittal was appealed long after the Charter came into effect, and he was convicted at his second trial (even though everyone in the country who wasn't on the jury knew he was innocent, including the guys he was in prison with). Anyway, I put the point back in. John FitzGerald 22:00, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Substitution of a conviction was outlawed by parliament in 1975, so that pretty well defines how far PET was willing to go. John FitzGerald 13:40, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double jeopardy 

message: Since the Supreme Court can't strike down the Constitution, it can't strike down the provisions of the Charter. So I took that observation out. And with that I wash my hands of this article. History is largely myth, anyway, so I'm giving up fighting against the transformation of the complex, contradictory and...human political figure that Pierre Trudeau was into a two-dimensional political "hero". Even if the status of hero was clearly something that Mr. Trudeau was uninterested in.  John FitzGerald 13:04, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to reword the preceding so it was less offensive. Not that anyone should have been offended, I suppose, but then I'm a Canadian. I took out all the stuff about the difference between current and past politics because it occurred to me that a more likely source of the problem is a phenomenon that happened during Mr. Trudeau's life – his supporters seemed to be deifying him in response to the absurd demonization of him by his opponents. Still not a valuable approach to one of the more imprtant figures of our time. John FitzGerald 15:41, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Striking down the Constitution 

message: I would like to ask anyone with relevent knowledge to add something about Trudeau regarding WWII.  He was born in 1919, so he was about 20 during the outbreak of the war.  This is by far the biggest event in his life prior to being prime minister.  For most Canadians that old, it's the biggest event ever.
I understand he, like most franchophone Quebecers, opposed the war.  He could have served in oombat as an officer if he chose.  He didn't.  Why?  Was he interviewed about this? What exactly was his stand on the war?  Did he ever change it?  He, as PM, went to many memorial services for WWII.  Did the issue never come up.
As a comparison, I can't imagine ommitting George W. Bush's Vietnam record.  W's war record is always mentioned in light of the War on Terror.  For instance, why send troops to combat, when he didn't go himself.  So, I would have thought Trudeau's WWII record would be brought up relative to his use of the War Measures Act.  For instance, why was the kidnapping of two people grounds for the War Measures Act, but Germany's conquest of Europe not.
You may disagree with my point-of-view (which is fine), but I think somebody should at least say something factual about this time period in Trudeau's life.  I didn't put in anything myself (on this specific topic), because I don't pretend to have the confirmed facts.  I was born in Canada 34 years ago, and never heard anything of signficance of on this, from school or in the media (and I have heard and read *lots* of stuff about Trudeau).
:Trudeau wasn't necessarily against the war, but in solidarity with Quebec he was against consciption and during the war campaigned for anti-consciptionist Quebec politician Jean Drapeau, saying in a speech "I had been taught to keep away from imperialistic wars". 
:In addition, I think the little sentence in the introduction that states "This allowed him to avoid being sent into combat, despite a draft, which forced many men his age to go to war." is categorically untrue. Although there was a draft insitituted in Canada, only volunteer soldiers were sent into combat (I've heard Canada fielded the largest 100% volunteer army during WWII), while draftees such as Trudeau guarded the home front, unlike the Americans which used large numbers of conscripts in combat (Eddie Slovik). Late in the war a handful of draftees did eventually get sent to Europe due to increasing casualties but saw very little actual combat before the end of the war. So the statement that many men were forced to go to war in Canada is essentially false and should be changed. In addition, Trudeau was actually booted out of the Officers Corps due to lack of discipline. For the most part Trudeau spent the war years at the University of Montreal, riding his Harley to school. mhunter
mhunter is incorrect; several thousand Canadian conscripts (not a handful) went into combat in 1945. They also went to the Aleutians in 1943 but the Japanese had fled.  Were the Japanese to be found there, the conscripted Canadians of the 13th Brigade was fully expected to fight there. Michael Dorosh 19:25, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Word War II record 

message: I'm sure some will contest this, but I assert there's no basis for using this term for him.  Sure, he was smart and well read.  So, were lots of people, not called intellectuals.  Who decides which poltical activist gets called an intellectual?  I sort of see the use of this term if a professor, researcher, or scientist; strolls into public affairs; after establishing a substantial reputation as an "intellectual", with recognition across the politcal spectrum.  Trudeau really didn't have this, in the beginning (which is where the text I removed was located).  Finally, I would compare to Stephen Harper, who did a lot of what "early Trudeau" did (organize/fight NEP, apprentice with candidate, organize/research/run non-partisan political action group), but was never called an intellectual, is not in his article.  --rob 12:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Trudeau earned his bones in the intellectual community before he entered politics.  He had been a professor and was a fellow of the Royal Society of Canada, an honour reserved for the scholars of the highest rank.  HistoryBA 23:40, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, fair points.  I suggest you put both facts in the article, with dates and footnotes.  Suprisingly, this article, mentions neither fact, but finds space to talk about his girlfriends.  I just found/read an article about him being a professor, but it didn't mention the full time period.  So, since it's sounds like you know, hopefully you can do an edit.  Thanks.  --rob 00:44, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I wouldn't object to a section being added below about his personal life, and girlfriends.  I did remove the listing of the names.  I mistakenly forgot to put a "change description".  Really, if this is important, there should be a section about it.  I frankly objected, to the fact, that the reader learns the names of his girlfriends, but didn't even know he was a professor.  Surely, there are priorities here.  The top of the article has to quickly say what the man was.  The names of his girlfriends do nothing.  --rob 17:00, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intellectual 

message: This article ought to have a bibliography.  Surely Trudeau wrote something besides his own memoirs?  121a0012 03:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are quite right about this.  The problem is that he wrote and co-authored a great many books and articles.  I will try to compile a list.  I'm not sure if they can all be included, though.  Sunray 22:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography? 

message: The following paragraph was added to the Legacy section of the article:
:Unification of the Armed Forces, while planned prior to his election as Prime Minister, was implemented during his government. The three distinctive services (Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army, and Royal Canadian Air Force) were merged into one service, a move many analysts and certainly most serving service personnel at the time felt was destructive and harmful to traditions, morale, and the prestige of the armed forces.
It seems questionable to view the unification of the Canadian Forces as part of Trudeau's legacy.  The die was cast for unification during the Pearson government, between 1964 and 1968.  The Canadian Forces Reorganization Act was passed in February, 1968; Trudeau became prime minister in April, 1968. Here are the milestones for unification:
*Unification originated as a white paper of the Pearson government in 1964.  The man generally considered responsible for unification was the defence minister in Pearson's cabinet, Paul Hellyer.
*On June 7, 1965, navy, army and air force commands were replaced by six functional commands.      
*On May 1, 1966 camps, stations and the navy's land-based installations became Canadian Forces Bases. Training schools and the pay system were unified.
*On November 4 1966, Bill C-243, "The Canadian Forces Reorganization Act," was introduced in parliament.  The Bill was given third and final reading in April 1967 and became law on February 1, 1968 amending the National Defence Act and making the army, navy and air force one.
*Hellyer was transport minister in the first Trudeau cabinet, but resigned in 1969 over a dispute with Trudeau.
It is true that the Trudeau government proceeded with unification.  To undo what had already been done would have been a disastrous climb-down for the Liberals. Although Trudeau's defence policies diverged sharply from those of Hellyer, defence was never one of his priorities.  Given the foregoing, I'm removing the paragraph from the article.  If anyone thinks it should be back in, please explain, with cites, here. Sunray 09:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Unification of the Canadian Forces

message: Hi:
The article calls it famous. Granted, it's become part of the Canadian political lexicon and it has since been parodied by Canadian politcal comedians but people outside Canada may never have heard of it.
:I agree.  It's famous only to Canadian political junkies.  HistoryBA 01:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walk in the snow 

message: I've cleaned up some redundant material in the Legacy section, and moved some up to the section about his tenure...I think that some of the Constitutional and Bilingualism "legacy" sections should be moved to their specific articles.  Any ideas?Habsfannova 04:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your approach makes sense to me.  Sunray 05:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: I switched the content from Pierre Trudeau to Pierre Elliot Trudeau, then redirected Pierre Trudeau to Pierre Elliot Trudeau.  To Canadians, and even those outside of Canada, when PM Trudeau is refer to, they refer to him as Pierre Elliot Trudeau.  Google Pierre Trudeau, and a lot of links that came up refer to him as Pierre Elliot Trudeau.  Google Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and only one refer to him as Pierre Trudeau.  I know it was a media habit at his time too, as there was a comment about how Pierre Elliot Trudeau is like a sports star because people always say his name in full, well, Pierre Elliot Trudeau still isn't his FULL name, but not just first and last.  - T'Sura [February 6th, 2006.  11:24a.m. Eastern]
:Why didn't you say anything about this beforehand?  You definatly should have posted the suggestion then allowed a day or two for debate.  I'm personally against.  Allan MacEachen was usually always referred to with the "J.", but we don't title article like that.Habsfannova 16:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't aware this was still being closely followed so I didn't know how long I have to wait, and I remember Pierre Elliot Trudeau being the original it was under before it was redirected.  So, debate?  My points is as stated above, and one other agrees with me.  I'll give it a few days, than I'm changing it to Pierre Elliot Trudeau unless there is a better point.  "J" was a nickname.  Whereas Pierre Elliot Trudeau is his proper name, parts out of his whole name, and hey, first name, middle name, last name.  The Elliot is English, and the Pierre is French, and it's kinda symbolic that Trudeau is both, hence why everyone then used Pierre Elliot Trudeau. - - T'Sura [February 7th, 2006.  7:03p.m. Eastern]
The use of "PET" as an acronym or shorthand when referring to him is also common, so the change does seem to make sense.Michael Dorosh 18:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Regardless of what you decide, the name is Elliott, with two Ts, not Elliot.  HistoryBA 00:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: "J." was not a nickname, it was his middle initial.  And the reason everyone started using "Elliott Trudeau" was because some newspapers in Montreal wanted to brand him as a half-anglo outsider, not because of some mythic "symbolism."Habsfannova 00:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect 

message: Right on guys!  Let's keep going, I guess.Habsfannova 23:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Good Article" 

message: funny how there's not much on him putting Canada into debt. Just one line
:Check out the "Legacy" section:
Some people consider Trudeau's economic policies to have been a weak point. Inflation and unemployment marred much of his term. When Trudeau took office in 1968 Canada had a debt of $18 billion, when he left office in 1984, that debt stood at $200 billion - an increase of 1100%. The debt overhang in particular is one that Canada is still dealing with, as interest payments eat up a substantial chunk of annual federal spending. However, these trends were present in most western countries at the time including the United States. It is also noteworthy that during this period Canada vaulted to the top of the world in terms of UN indices measuring Human Development and Quality of Life, though the terms of those indices and the weight they assigned to spending itself remain controversial.
Also mentioned are MacEachen's budgets in the 80s section, and the economy and debt in the 70s section.  Any other complaints?Habsfannova 03:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Since when was Canada's economy perfect with him 

message: Shouldn't there be some more on his personal life.  In particular, how did Deborah Coyne feature - a long-term girlfriend or a short fling ?
:I say we only include it if it is relevant to his public life.  HistoryBA 15:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal life / Deborah Coyne 

message: We should include some material from the new Young Trudeau book about his involvement in Jesuit-inspired Quebec nationalist causes as a youth. 
[quote][http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060408.TRUDEAU08/TPStory/ Closest friends surprised by Trudeau revelations
Many didn't know extent of former PM's involvement in elitist organization]
HUGH WINSOR
Special to The Globe and Mail
OTTAWA -- Some of Pierre Trudeau's closest friends were not aware of the extent of the former prime minister's involvement in a fascist-type secret organization in the 1940s until the publication of a book this week, but his participation was a reflection of the dominant intellectual currents in Quebec Roman Catholic circles at the time.
One of the closest of those friends, Marc Lalonde, who was part of the Quebec nationalist ferment along with Mr. Trudeau when both were in their youth, and subsequently one of the pillars in the Trudeau cabinets, said yesterday he was not aware of the organization described in Young Trudeau: 1919-1944, Son of Quebec, Father of Canada until he read the book.
But he was not surprised: "Quite obviously, it was a very small group led by a couple of Jesuit priests," he said yesterday, but it was fostered in a climate of church-led Quebec nationalism that was quite widespread, especially among the intellectual elites produced by the classical colleges in the 1930s and 1940s.
Mr. Lalonde said the book's authors, Max and Monique Nemni (who were also editors of the briefly revived Cité Libre, a magazine that Mr. Trudeau co-founded) have done their homework, had access to all of the documents and have provided an accurate picture of the times.
As a young man, Mr. Trudeau was very much influenced by the Roman Catholic Church, which at that time was very inward-looking and nationalist, Mr. Lalonde said. "They talked about creating La Laurencie [a Laurentian nation] that would be very Catholic, very French and very corporatist. They talked about a kind of perpetual revolution that went beyond the Trotsky notion of revolution," he added.
Although a decade younger than Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Lalonde was also involved in the dialogue, even though he and former Le Devoir editor and Quebec provincial Liberal leader Claude Ryan attended less elitist classical colleges than College Brebeuf, where Mr. Trudeau studied.
"Fundamentally, Trudeau was very much reflecting the mood of those days, very anti-conscription, and he teamed up with André Laurendeau and Jean Drapeau to fight against conscription.
"They had a very elitist conception of society. When you read the book, it makes you smile at the naiveté of it, but it was also frightening."
The structure of society they were advocating was essentially fascist with an elite, an integrated structure and a very strong leader.
Mr. Lalonde said the Portuguese and Spanish dictators were seen as models, as was Vichy France leader Marshal Pétain.
The Pierre Trudeau that Canadians came to know -- intellectual rebel, anti-establishment fighter on behalf of unions and promoter of religious freedom -- was a product of his experiences when he got out of Quebec and away from the Jesuit influence.
He studied French philosophers Jacques Maritan and Emanuel Munier, who supported a left-wing form of Catholicism and an emphasis on individual rights. He was also influenced by the British philosophers Locke and Hume when he studied in London.
Toronto lawyer Michael Levine, a friend of the Trudeau family in later years (and Mr. Trudeau's lawyer), said he had discussions with the Trudeau children about this period, especially Sacha, and they have written it off to youthful indiscretion that his humanist record in adult life has more than made up for.[/quote]
Homey 15:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What Homagetocatalonia has added is probably enough.Habsfan|t 16:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Young Trudeau 

message: What I really want to know is how tall was he?
142.231.110.50 20:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about exact figures, but not very.Habsfan|t 21:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He looks tall. I like your flag. 142.231.110.50 23:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Check out the image on the bottom of Prime Minister of Canada to compare his height with other PMs...I'll try and see what his height was in a few of my sources...thanks for the compliment, btw.Habsfan|t 03:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important question 

message: Should the two disambiguation pages be merged into one?  At the moment, we have the following text at the top of the article, which seems somewhat strange:
    "Trudeau" redirects here. For other uses, see Trudeau (disambiguation).
    For other uses of the term, see Pierre Elliott Trudeau (disambiguation).
Some articles are shared between both.  Others appear on one but not the other.  --Stephane Charette 00:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: Every source I've read says he was born in Montreal, yet this article claims he was born in "Whitehorse" (Yukon?). I'm changing it back unless there's a birth record or other reliable source. ChildOfTheMoon83 00:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthplace