Talk:Effects of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans/Archive 1

message: I'd just like to congratulate everyone here for doing a great job. 
149.99.164.17 00:27, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Top

message: Since Wikipedia is a neutral resorce, I don't really know if nicknames are pertinent. However, as George Bush has already coined the term "American tsunami" (even though it was not a tsunami but a violent storm), and I have heard people on the news refer to it as "A modern day Atlantis". Does anyone know if New Orleans is going to be abandoned, or renovated?--Importancenn 10:26, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think people who want to see New Orleans rebuilt are going to have to fight for it.  --noösfractal 10:40, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

text: See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4840400 for the thoughts of an urban planner on this subject. In brief, New Orleans will be rebuilt but will be a smaller city with fewer poor because much of the low income housing will not be replaced. --Walter Siegmund 20:23, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nicknames?

message: Anyone have an idea of what happened to the prisons? I hear conflicting reports saying that the prisons were evacuated beforehand or that some were left out and the prisoners escaped...I think it would be really significant if hundreds of additional felons were now wandering around in general population. I also haven't found out if there was any resolution to the prison hostage standoff. Jarwulf 03:28, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Prisons

message: Let's try to write timely material in a timeless way, that can survive future edits. Rather than write "Eighty percent of New Orleans is estimated to be underwater", we should try to write that "As of August X, eighty percent..." or "On August X, Mayor Nagin estimated that eighty percent..."
Also: WWL is a disambiguation page, WWL-TV is the TV station, and WWL (AM) |WWL is the radio station. The TV and radio stations are owned and operated independently of each other, so they should be disambiguated when we know which one is being referenced.
Thoughts and prayers for every Wikipedian from the Gulf Coast of the United States, or with family or friends there... :\ Samaritan 05:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes!  Writing timely material correctly is an increasing problem on all of the many pages within the Hurrican Katrina category. Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention. 24.60.184.196 12:18, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  BAsed on recent complaints, a new article, Wikipedia:Recentism was created to cover time bias. Any constructive contribs would be appreciated. MPS 17:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timelessness, and WWL disambiguation 

message: I may just be speaking for myself, but I think it would be helpful if there was a map that showed New Orleans and pointed out some major landmarks, so that those of us only slightly familiar with the city could get a sense of where things are.--Westendgirl 00:18, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: Why has the prediction section been truncated?  Could someone put back all the previous prediction parts? I don't know how to.
:I believe the content is in Predictions of hurricane risk for New Orleans. In a way it's good, so that this article can focus on the Effect of Katrina, as the title suggests. --Vsion 07:20, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: With so many related articles on Hurricane Katrina, I think it's important to keep the articles tightly-focused around their topic.  So I agree with the deletion. 24.60.184.196 12:18, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section deleted! 

message: Can someone find any info on the status of both Loyola and Tulane Universities. Both of them are in Orleans Parish, and I know some sections of that parish are flooded, but no info has been seen about any structural damages to them. <<Coburn_Pharr>> 12:22, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Status of Universities

message: There is a plan to move people out of the Superdome via military ships.  They will move them to the Astrodome in Texas.  Troops will assist in the evacuation.  Zzxcnet 15:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  10:15am CDT newsconference by LA Governor 

message: From the article: "At 7:50 31 August, it was decided that FEMA — in conjunction with Greyhound, the National Guard, and Houston Metro — would immediately relocate the by-then 22,000–25,000 Superdome refugees across state lines to the Reliant Astrodome in Houston."  I'm not sure what time zone 7:50 is in, but it is definitely not right. As I'm writing this, it is 2:11 pm EDT; the two most likely times to be reported in this article would be CDT, which would be 1:11 pm, or UTC, which would be 6:11 pm.  And I'm sure that it was announced before this point in time.   --timc | Talk 18:13, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Could it be that the decision was made at 7:50 AM, and later announced? — ceejayoz ★ 20:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Astrodome 

message: With an estimated eighty percent of the residents evacuated as of August 31, at least 28,000 people are still unaccounted for.
On its face, this doesn't make sense.  80% leaving means 20% staying - about 100,000 people.  Assuming the 20,000 people in the Superdome are considered "accounted for", how do we get down from 80,000 to 28,000?  Where does the 28,000 number come from?  It looks now like 28,000=20% of residents, but that's clearly not the case. john k 06:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Figures 

message: Wikipedia:Recentism. This unnecessary article is a perfect example.
*Hmmm... I wonder if the above unsigned comment, which came from an anonymous IP address, was from one of the two editors who have taken it upon themselves, within just the past 3 days, to create Wikipedia:Recentism?  That page is not Policy, it is not a guideline, it is not even a proposed policy or guideline.  It is just an opinion piece.  Johntex 17:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: yes it was me. I wasn't logged in at the time. Oops. PS Johntex, use colons and not bullets when replying to posts -- it indents the text. MPS 17:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The effect of the Hurricane on New Orleans is significant enough to be documented and complicated enough to be documented in its own article. You can't just invent things like that "Recentism" page and then try to apply it authoritatively wherever you think there shouldn't be an article or update. If you can't provide solid reasoning for your opinions about this article I think you should keep them to yourself for the time being. --170.171.1.5 18:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually Marskell gets credit for it over on Talk:Pat Robertson. Clearly not all the details here will stick around forever. I now agree that it is an necessary article, but largely because it protects the [[New Orleans] article and the Hurricane Katrina article from overzealous contributors. You don't see an article on the Effect of the Iraq War on Baghdad, do you? MPS 20:11, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

text: The Recentism article explains pretty well why this article is necessary... and, as I've been finding out lately (chalk it up to inexperience), an editing nightmare. Deadsalmon 06:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Check it 

message: * Is the recently added "Other" section mentioning Fats Domino appropriate in this article? Being an aging rocker does't really elevate his importance as a missing person over anybody else, and if we were to write an entry on each missing person, it'd fill a book... and not fit in this context anyways. Anybody else think it needs to be deleted or moved elsewhere? Deadsalmon 20:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, Fats has since been found. --Westendgirl 05:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I put him in there. Since he has been found, I guess he should be removed from the article. One piece of good news, anyway. Incidentally, Fats Waller was a great Classical Pianist too and won a prestigious piano competion, beating many later famous Concert Pianists. He rates a mention.Leistung 14:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fats Waller died in 1943 of pneumonia not related to Hurricane Katrina. Dystopos 22:55, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Digression: Is there a wikipedia term for "separate page" I have heard some call it a spinoff page and I called it a side article. I want to see if there is wiki-terminology for this. If you know please tell me via my talk talk page. MPS 01:32, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Individual accounts / Fats Domino? 

message: Can someone add this 9 March "before" satellite photo of New Orleans for comparison:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/katrina/new_orleans_msi_march9_2004_dg.jpg
It should carry the same copyright info as the Digiglobe "after" photo featured. Thanks! Jokestress 21:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you want one? That's simply morbid, and many would say in bad taste. --Titoxd 01:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Digiglobe "before" photo 

message: The people evacuated from the effected areas are not refugees, they are evacuees, aren't they? A refugee is defined in the dictionary as a person who takes refuge in a foreign country. They are only moving to an other state, not another country. "Evacuees" seems a bit more acurate to me. --BoyoJonesJr 22:57, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked Dictionary.com  and I see that the third definition is "an exile who flees for safety", so it is a correct usage here by the third definition.  The same source gives the first definition of evacuee as "A person evacuated from a dangerous area."  So, I would say that either are correct but evacuee may be prefered.  I have no objection either way.  Wikipedia:Be Bold applies here, I think.  Go ahead and edit it, I doubt anyone with revert you.  Johntex 23:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Exile" usually means abroad. Rd232 10:22, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Those who left during the evacuation phase are evacuees, they had time to pack some stuff and departed in their cars, etc. Those who remained but later forced to leave after the hurricane are in far worse shapes and carry little items with them, they are called refugees. --Vsion 05:07, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, an evacuee would be someone who was evacuated, not someone who left on their own will.  Hence the "ee".  Peyna 05:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Strictly, refugees are people who take refuge in foreign countries. Otherwise, they are "internally displaced persons". But in common usage, "refugee" is used loosely to mean anybody fleeing in the face of disaster. Rd232 10:22, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose the term refugees could be applied to the situation. "refugee" seems to be sensationalism more than anything. I think the article should be as accurate as possible because "refugee" has a certain connotation (as being more related to a war) that doesn't really fit the situation. --BoyoJonesJr 14:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: etymologically, "refugee" means "seeker of refuge" and could apply despite the tendency of modern usage to assume political refuge. Dystopos 05:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refugees?? 

message: When putting an update into the article, please do not date the update. Instead, use the As of... format. This is not a blog or a journal and if you date articles with (9/1/2005) or whatever, it looks like a blog. We don't want that. --Woohookitty 01:55, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, a date should be wikilinked every time it is used, to allow for user's date display preferences to work. (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Date formatting) Proto t c 13:24, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

text: However thsi should only b done if the FULL date is being used, day, month, and year. Date preferences do not work on day/month or other forms with less than full dte info, and these should not generally be wiki-liked at all. DES (talk) 20:53, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Not true. Day/month is also recognised; wikilinking 'March 23' will cause it to be displayed as either 23 March, March 23 or 3/23, depending on user's preferences. Proto t c 09:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow. I finally find out why people wikilink dates all the time and find out it is to allow dates to be expressed differently according to people's preferences. And there I was clicking on the date links all the time and thinking that the author of the article thought it was a good idea to have links to all the dates, no matter how obscure. Shouldn't this "date preference" thing be separated from the wikilink function? Two separate needs and two separate solutions, surely? Carcharoth 14:36, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Format

message: --VKokielov 06:27, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm going to clear out the speculation. 

message: This is quickly becoming a buliten board for schools offering to take in students.  I was about to add Spring Hill College when I realized that section is about to bloat itself beyound the needs of the article.  Perhaps this could be condenced to a line or two saying that some schools are offering places, and then a helpfull user (wouldn't know where to start myself) could use some of their space for the growing list with a link in the article for those who wish to know. Donovan Ravenhull 14:31, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education subheader 

message: I have removed and reworded another section that was copied verbatim from an AP news report. Please do not copy and paste copyrighted material onto Wikipedia!!. If there is important news to be added, please summarize it in your own words while linking to the source! -Loren 23:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You have no rights to fair use of text on the Wikipedia, at all. Only images, and only in certain circumstances. --Kiand 21:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please do not post copyrighted material verbatim!! 

message: I would like to propose a new article, may be named "Humanitarian crisis in New Orleans, 2005" or something like that. It would primarily address such issues as 1. Evacuation before the hurricane. 2. Superdome as a shelter during the hurricane 3. Post-hurricane evacuation, refugee camps (Superdome and Convention Center at first then Astrodome and others). 4. Relief efforts and lack of thereof. 5. Looting and crime. 6. Health  concerns 7. Casualties. 8. Relocation efforts by regions and cities. 9. International response (if any). 
This article ("Effects of the hurricane on New Orleans") would address the 1.Timeline of events. 2. Map and the extent of the damage (e.g., levees). 3. Reference to the Humanitarian crisis 4. Effect on industries, oil, casinos, education etc. 5. Effects on the environment 6. Bringing New Orleans back to life. (Igny 23:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A proposal to split 

message: Does the fire picture (:Image:New Orleans Fire 2005-09-02.jpg) look faked to anyone else?  Anybody know any news report regarding this fire? (I mean, is it actually relevant? The article itself doesn't mention it.) Phaunt 00:24, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is some information about the fire (and lots of other things) at http://mgno.com/ (which, by the way, is also the source of that picture). --cesarb 02:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fire picture 

message: I have a request:  Would anyone who knows Interlingua help to expand the Interlingua article?  It doesn't even have to be good Interlingua -- I can perform grammar checks and editing tommorow -- but we need to get information out about what has happened so far.  I can't do it myself, one because the topic is huge, and two because I'm running on fumes and have to help out tommorow.  Almafeta 07:06, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:ia:Effectos del hurracan Katrina contra New Orleans]] 

message: Perhaps we should mention in the article the references ministers and Kanye West made to "George Bush not caring about black people". I myself think that they are just digging themselves into a deeper hole by stirring up trouble, but in the spirit of neutrality, should it be mentioned?--Importancenn 10:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Racism

message: Found this on the Drudge Report, it's from the NY Times.  Apparently, atleast 200 overwhelmed police officers have left the force, and 2 have commited suicide.
This definately needs to get put in somewhere, but I'm not sure where.  --Scapegoat pariah 18:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Law Officers

message: According to some news sources, the water seems to be receeding from some parts of the city. The article doesn't mention this, nor explain why. Can anyone informed please add this info. --Hullbr3ach 22:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I heard that water level in Lake Pontchartrain dropped by 2 feet. This may be just natural tide fluctuation. When this happens, it helps to drain out a large amount of flood water from New Orleans, with just natural forces (without pumps at all!). So the Engineers (Army Corp of Engineers), were taking advantage of this by not closing the levee gap too quickly because that was where the water flowed out. But it was a calculated decision with some risks, as the tide could rise again and push the water back in. The engineers tried to minimize the risk by making the gap smaller, but not closing it completely, hence controlling the maximum rate of water flow through the gap. With the report of receedng water, I believed this strategy was working in reducing the flood while the pumps are still not working. A recent report  now says that the Engineers "had succeeded in closing off the 17th Street canal"; so I guess they have sealed the gap now, and are fixing the pumps to push the remaining water out. --Vsion 23:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I also understand that in the immediate wake of Katrina the lake level was unusually high, even after inundating the city. Some water would flow back into the lake as it went back down to "normal" levels. At the same time some of the water would soak into the ground or evaporate. There is a limit to how much more drying can occur naturally without getting the pumps back on-line. Dystopos 22:51, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Water receeding. Why? 

message: Tells FEMA they should look here.   Woo Hoo!--Baylink 21:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doc Searls calls this page "most remarkable" 

message: Primary causes does not make even nodding gesture toward global warming as a primary cause whether or not it's controversial, it's at least a probable cause of the greatly strengthened storm's energy.
In the section on emergency shelters, the convention center is described as an officially-identified emergency shelter. Given that no national or loacl authorities appear to have acknowledged the evacuee population there, can it be verified that the Convention center is in fact official? 216.173.212.234 04:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The case for global warming is made in the main article Hurricane. It is my understanding that scientific consensus holds that the last few decades of tropical weather have been unusually calm and that a resumption of historically "normal" activity would appear to be a great increase in severe tropical weather regardless of global warming. All hurricanes strengthen in the relatively warm gulf of mexico. Nothing about Katrina indicates that it was affected differently from other storms, so it would be difficult to assign any particular blame to global warming that couldn't just as well be assigned to other geographic or climatic conditions. Dystopos 05:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Primary Causes, Convention center cite

message: Could someone explain to me, why this Lake has not been emptied and dried yet? 
I did not make extensive research, but got the impression, that the lake is a major threat. 
Are there any reasons, for preserving it? 
I am wondering why water is pumped into the lake and not into the Mississippi or the sea.
It could also get filled up to the height of the levees/barriers that protect the city. Thsi would create new land and protect the city much better. 
Is there anything that forbids such a measure?
* Without knowing the exact geology of the place, it will not be too easy to answer this question. The lake must have an influx from somewhere, and there is a certain level of ground water. Remember, the Bajou is a swamp, and you needed pumps to keep at least New O dry anyway. It is not that easy. (And yeah, I know, this is no discussion board.) --LostJedi 10:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the wikipedia entry on Lake Pontchartrain. It is a very large, though shallow lake. It is 40 miles by 24 miles, and filling it in would be a mammoth task. Easier to build up the levees around New Orleans. Also, look at the number of rivers draining into the lake. You have to channel that water somewhere. 194.200.237.219 11:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Something on the order of the Zuiderzee Works might be possible. -- Cyrius|✎ 18:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Lake is the most convenient outlet to the Gulf of Mexico. It could not be "emptied and dried out" because it is only slightly above sea level itself. There is nowhere to drain it to and it would continue to refill naturally. The River is actually a good bit higher than the lake as it passes through New Orleans. Building smaller areas up to the height of the levees might be feasible, but filling Lake Pontchartrain is clearly not. Dystopos 19:09, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If I may put in my two cents, IMHO New Orleans should not be built in the same place.  It should be built on the north side of Lake Pontchartrain.  At least the new New Orleans will have some protection just in case. --BigWilliam 20:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: New Orleans remains today where it was founded. Or are you only referring to housing areas that have been damaged beyond repair? Dystopos 16:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If so, it should be obvious that they need to build stronger, more modernized levees. BigWilliam 22:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep in mind that the oldest parts of the city, like the French Quarter, were built on the highest ground and they were spared flooding in what was almost a worst case scenario. As a native of Metairie I want to see the area rebuilt, but I wouldn't object if we shifted most things upriver a bit. But the city has to be on the river--it the industrial heart of the region.Kevin M Marshall 19:50, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for the continued existence of Lake Pontchartrain 

message: I'm not sure how this topic fits in with the scope of the article, but it does seem to be notable.
Archive salvage to begin (New Orleans Times-Picayune) Dystopos 16:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Damage to Archives and Artifacts 

message: I reverted to the 16:27, 11 September 2005 version. This deleted the changes of 16:46, 11 September 2005 by 154.20.187.205 (→Below sea level). While this section contains some material that could be usefully deleted, much of it is of general interest and should be retained, in my opinion. Moreover, the changes introduced several errors.
Walter Siegmund 19:26, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert to  16:27, 11 September 2005 

message: I've edited the image placements and layout for the aftermath section and added two more. Hopefully this layout will appeal to everyone at every resoultion. sikander 17:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image layout updated for Aftermath section 

message: I moved a picture of mayor Ray Nagin to a more NPOV section and actually where his name is first mentioned.  Formerly, his photo was solo under the criticisim section, implying (at least visually), he's    THE ONE to blame; if the section is still to hold photos it should consist of a more logical order of those criticised -- such as TOP to BOTTOM -- President Bush (National Leader), FEMA (Federal Government), Governor (STATE), Mayor (CITY), and so forth.  Eitherway, the move is justified and adds a more neutral presentation.  ~ RoboAction 18:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture very POV 

message: Aparently, not using the School Busses came at FEMA's request, after they promised them more suitable busses. Which did not enter the state till late on the wednesday.  
:--John R. Barberio  talk, contribs  10:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So the governor was using school buses to move people and the mayor was telling feds to not use school buses.  (SEWilco 19:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if, for some reason, there was a reson or request not to use the school buses, they still could have been moved to higher ground rather than be left in place to be destroyed.  Johntex\talk 20:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? Peyna 04:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think its strictly hindsight.  Storms have hit before and this sort of effect on the New Orleans levees has been anticipated.  If someone crosses the street without looking and gets hit by a bus, would you say that only the danger was only evident in hindsight? I think not. Johntex\talk 04:31, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

text: The issue is saving people by moving them away from an approaching hurricane, not saving buses.  Some buses probably were moved out to protect them, just as Amtrak moved passenger cars away.  Most of the flooded buses outdoors are school or city buses, but I don't know if private companies don't have many buses, moved them away, or park them indoors.  I only found about a dozen private buses outdoors.  (SEWilco 04:39, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there is more than one issue.  Saving people is AN issue, not the only issue. Having equipment to save them WITH is another issue.  Protecting property in general is another (albeit less important) issue.  Johntex\talk 04:46, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Those school busses. 

message: In the section right after Kanye West's speech, there are mentions of the white couple (or more specifically, caucasian is implied) "finding" food. However, I looked at the picture on the Snopes page, and the couple didn't exactly look white to me. For example, the woman looked like she could be bi-racial or hispanic. Is this wiki article making the racist assumption that all light skinned people must be caucasian? --Ar57 18:49, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. You caught us. --Golbez 18:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist assumptions 

message: Somebody has started 2005 New Orleans flood. I've twice re-directed that here, only to be reverted. I'd appreciate others' views. Andy Mabbett 20:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I didn't revert it, I agree that it is senseless duplication (and ludicrously inadequate) and should be a redirect. Simesa 21:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

text: While Effect of Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans is a cumbersome title, 2005 New Orleans flood does not incorporate the significant wind and civil disorder effects. I think it is unnatural to separate these components since they are so closely intertwined. I have put a merge flag on 2005 New Orleans flood Walter Siegmund 17:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 2005 New Orleans flood

message: This is hardly what you'd expect an encyclopedia to reference.  Possibly the best reason to delete it is given on its root page  "Kersplebedeb is a one-person project devoted to producing and distributing radical books and pamphlets and agit prop materials." Simesa 13:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/katrina/index.html deleted reference]