Talk:North Macedonia/FYROM name support position

message: Please do not modify this page. An exact copy of the rationale that follows has been pasted in the special sub-page: Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Comments to FYROM name support position. Feel free to post your comments there, under the respective arguements, for discussion.
Every sentence which is underlined below is from the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline. The rest are the comments that support renaming the article to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
 
===Proper Names===
The three key principles are:
* The most common use of a name takes precedence;
 
:The most common name is apparently "Macedonia" (see google test -175M results. However, it is not more common because it addresses the country; it is more common because it generally addresses to the historical background of other ethnic groups in the region (for example see here in WP: Alexander the Great, Macedon, Macedonia (Greece), Philip II of Macedon, Ancient Macedonians, Ancient Macedonian language, Bulgaria etc). Therefore,  a simple google search is not clear to see how often the names are used. One needs to eliminate all possible mentionings of the name "Macedonia" for purposes that do not refer to the country. Also, since this is the English version of WP, one has to search for pages written in English. Such a test has been conducted below (as described in #Identification of common names using external references). The results are obvious, please compare:
 
*"FYROM" (10.6M results).
The search uses all possible forms of FYROM:"Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia""Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia""FYRO Macedonia""FYR of Macedonia""FYR Macedonia"Excluding:  Wikipedia and "Republic of Macedonia" (to avoid double inclusions).Please note that this exclusion, does not show the results for all those sites that use BOTH names (like the WP article).	
*"Macedonia" (6.49M results).
 
The search excludes some obvious words that refer to ...other Macedonias [sic]. Unfortunately, Google does not allow for more than 32 words in its search, so there may be even more necessary exclusions:
{| border="0"	
-Greek-Greece-Hellas-Cyprus-.gr (ie all Greek sites)-Thessaloniki (the capital of the Greek part of Macedonia)-Salonica (other name for the above)-Bulgaria	
-Ohio (yes, there is a... Macedonia in Ohio!)-Pittsburgh (in Pittsburgh too!)-Connecticut (you guessed right)-"South Carolina" (here too)-Canton (also)-Texas (also)-Alabama (also)-"Michael Macedonia" (there is an artist by that name)-Corinthians (The Bible mentions the name –as Greek, ofcourse)-wikipedia	
-Former (to exclude all possible mentionings of the name for FYROM)-Yugoslavian (also)-Yugoslav (also)-"F.Y.R.O.M." (also)-FYROM (also)-FYRO (also)-FYR (also)Same note as left: These exclusions, do not show the results for all those sites that use BOTH names (like the WP article).
 
:Result: Clearly Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is 63% more common than Macedonia (when referring to the country).
:To illustrate this further, check below what the term Macedonia is used for more:
*When it is used for Greece: 137 million hits
vs
*When it is used for Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: 63 million hits
:Uninformed readers will be dazzled when they are presented with the term Macedonia referring to the country as a more common name!!
* If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;
 
:Since Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is more common, the question about the conflict with the official name can be rephrased as which is the official name? Is it the name of the country under its constitution (Republic of Macedonia), or is it the name of the country under most international organizations (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia —see international organizations below)
 
:Result: Subjective. One must judge what is more important as an official source. A country's constitution (which under extreme circumstances could also be "Killneighboursland") or the name specified by most international organizations?
 
 
* If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.
 
:Inapplicable, since the common name (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) is clearly prevalent. Furthermore, it is subjective which the official name should be (constitution or UN etc). However, let us continue the reasoning, just for the shake of the arguements that follow:
 
A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:
* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)
 
#Google was tested above. Result: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (10.6 vs 6.5 million results)
#Other reference works. Result: Republic of Macedonia (3 vs 1)
##Encyclopedia.com: Republic of Macedonia plus Naming Dispute text with Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia mentioned
##Britannica online: Republic of Macedonia plus Naming Dispute text with Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia mentioned
##Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition.  2001-05: Republic of Macedonia plus Naming Dispute text with Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia mentioned
##Encarta: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia plus Naming Dispute text in intro paragraph with Republic of Macedonia mentioned.
#Websites of media. Result: Generally Republic of Macedonia, (about 3 to 1). Most websites use both names, depending on the context of the article. Below are the results for Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in:
##Google News
##BBC News
##CNN
##Guardian Unlimited
#Country's government Result: Mixed.
##The country uses the name "Republic of Macedonia" for all internal purposes.
##The country uses the name "Republic of Macedonia" externally for the strict bilateral relations to (and from) those countries that have recognised its constitutional name (—see other governments below).
##The country uses the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" externally for all relations to (and from):
###Those countries that have not recognised its constitutional name (—see other governments below).
###Most international organisations (—see international organizations below)
###The country has explicitly agreed that their final name should be reached after deliberations with Greece: "Henceforth the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has formally accepted that the name of its State is an issue for negotiation as provided for in UN Security Council Resolution 817 (1993)." 
#Other governments:
##Worldwide. Result: Republic of Macedonia (about 2 to 1)
##Major English speaking countries. Result: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (3 to 1)
###USA: Recently recognised the constitutional name (RoM) under the explicit provision that it will recognise the name that will emerge from the bilateral talks between Greece and the country.
###Canada: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
###UK: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
###Australia: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
#International Organisations. Result: 100% Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Examples:
##United Nations: UN. Paradox in WP article:
##*United Nations member states plus templates et.al.
##International Monetary Fund: IMF. Paradox in WP article:
##*United Nations member states (same members as UN)
##European Union: EU. Paradox in WP article:
##*European Union#Future enlargement and close relationships
##*:Image:EU map names isles.png plus templates et.al. 
##European Bank for Reconstruction and Development: EBRD. Paradox in WP article:
##*European Bank for Reconstruction and Development#Countries of operation et.al.
##North Atlantic Treaty Organisation: NATO. Paradox in WP article:
##*North Atlantic Treaty Organisation#After the September 11th attacks
##*North Atlantic Treaty Organisation#Cooperation with non-member states
##*North Atlantic Treaty Organisation#Possible NATO expansion plus templates et.al.
##Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe: OSCE. Paradox in WP article:
##*Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe#Participating States et.al.
##International Olympic Committee: IOC. Paradox in WP article:
##*List of IOC country codes et.al.
##World Bank Group: WB
##Please observe the paradox that with the current name of the article and the WP policy for keeping the same name everywhere, the above mentioned WP articles include the wrong name (based on how the international organization calls the country, and how the country itself addresses to that organization) when they refer to it!
 
* Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)
:Result: Mixed. The country uses both official names, depending on the context (—see above). Also, for the term official, it is subjective if it should be considered strictly under the suggested example (constitution), or under the UN.
 
* Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)
:Result: Mixed. The country uses both official names, depending on the context (—see above).
:Also: In this case, both countries (Greece and fYRoM; Bulgaria uses Blagoevgrad Province) call their territories in that region "Macedonia". It would be impossible due to Wikipedia's technical limitations to have the self-identifying term in both respective articles (currently Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia (Greece)). Therefore, there needs to be a disambiguating term next to both Macedonias [sic]. In this case between the terms former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and Republic of Macedonia, the most common disambiguating term for the country is clearly the first (without any exceptions in the search). Check the results by Google:
:former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: 4,000,000 hits
::vs
:Republic of Macedonia: 1,110,000 hits
:Users supporting the short term, claim that the long term is offensive to them (for including "former Yugoslav"?). However, no Greek user has used such argumentation regarding the disambiguating "(Greece)" next to the "Macedonia" name in Macedonia (Greece). This is because, naturally, the name of the country that the province belongs (or formerly belonged) cannot be offensive (unless ofcourse there was extensive confrontation between Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and its own state Socialist Republic of Macedonia, which is not the case).
Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:
* Does the subject have a moral right to use the name?
:Result: Mixed. The Greek position is that the country has no moral right to use the name due to historical reasons. The country officially acknowledges the connection of the name to the Greek history, but the country resides on the Macedonian region as well.
 
* Does the subject have a legal right to use the name?
:Result: Definitely not under UN. Otherwise any country could choose a name of a broader region (fictional eg. Norway to Scandinavia and Portugal to Iberia).
 
* Does the name infringe on someone else's legal or moral rights?
:Result: According to the Greek position, definitely yes.
 
* Is the use of the name politically unacceptable?
:Inapplicable
 
To determine the balance of these criteria, editors may find it useful to construct a table like the following:
:
Criterion                                                    	FYROM                                                        	Macedonia
1. Most commonly used name in English                        	1                                                            	0
2. Current undisputed official name of entity                	1                                                            	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity                   	1                                                            	1
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.	1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.	1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.
 
:Final scores: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (3 to 1)
 
Mark each box with 1 for a yes, or 0 for a no. Add the totals of each column to get final scores for the options. The option that has the highest overall score should be used as the article name. In case of ex aequo score, criterion 1 takes precedence, except for conflicting scientific names, in which case the (most) undisputed (of the) "official" name(s) is best used (see above).
 
:Repeat: Final scores: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia:3 — Republic of Macedonia:1
 
Where a choice exists between native and common English versions of names (e.g. Deutsch/German), the common English version of the name is usually preferred (see also #Ambiguity persists below).
:Inapplicable
 
Do not invent names as a means of compromising between opposing POVs. Wikipedia describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names.
:Inapplicable
===Identification of common names using external references===
A number of methods can be used to identify which of a pair (or more) conflicting names is the most prevalent in English.
# The Google test. Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Wikipedia" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term.
#:The test instructions above were followed by the book.
#
#
#
# International organisations. Search for the conflicting names on the websites of organisations such as the United Nations, NATO, OSCE, IMF, etc.
#:Point well covered above (100% Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia).
#
#
#
# Major English-language media outlets. Use Google News and, where possible, the archives of major outlets such as BBC News and CNN to identify common usages. Some media organisations have established style guides covering naming issues, which can provide useful guidance (e.g. The Guardian's style guide says use Ukraine, not the Ukraine).
#:Point well covered above (Republic of Macedonia 4 to 1)
#
#
#
# Reference works. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English.
#:Point well covered above (Republic of Macedonia 3 to 1)
#
#
#
# Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp .
#:Result: Geographic name servers, such as the NGIA GNS specify both names: here
===Conclusion===
 
The most common name for the country is definitely Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Even if we disregard that fact and proceed into examining objective and subjective criteria, the name should still be Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia In view of all this, the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" should be used as the name of the article. Any other solution is an obvious violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline.
A diagram that summarises the above follows:
                                     |--Google test (6.5M vs 10.6M)--|
                |----(internally)----The Republic----(externally)*---|
                                             |----(externally)---Greek Govt--(internally)--|
                                             |--UN-EU-NATO-IMF-EBRD--|
                |-------------------Major News sites-----------------|
                |----------------Other referenced works--------------|
                |-------------------Geographic sites-----------------|
                |---Some (many) countries----|-----------Other(fewer)countries-------------|
                |------Major English speaking countries (1 to 3)-----|
Name 1:         |----"Republic of Macedonia"-----------------------------------------------| 
Name 2:         |----------------------------------------"FYROM"---------------------------|
Name 3:         |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| 
Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate----------|---------------------|
*Except strictly bilateral relations of the country with those (many) countries
 that have recognised its constitutional name.
 NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: FYROM name support position

message: The most common name for the country is definitely Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Even if we disregard that fact and proceed into examining objective and subjective criteria, the name should still be Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia In view of all this, the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" should be used as the name of the article. Any other solution is an obvious violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight and the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline.
A diagram that summarises the above follows:
                                     |--Google test (6.5M vs 10.6M)--|
                |----(internally)----The Republic----(externally)*---|
                                             |----(externally)---Greek Govt--(internally)--|
                                             |--UN-EU-NATO-IMF-EBRD--|
                |-------------------Major News sites-----------------|
                |----------------Other referenced works--------------|
                |-------------------Geographic sites-----------------|
                |---Some (many) countries----|-----------Other(fewer)countries-------------|
                |------Major English speaking countries (1 to 3)-----|
Name 1:         |----"Republic of Macedonia"-----------------------------------------------| 
Name 2:         |----------------------------------------"FYROM"---------------------------|
Name 3:         |------------------------------------------------------"Republic of Skopje"| 
Current debate: |----------------------------area of debate----------|---------------------|
*Except strictly bilateral relations of the country with those (many) countries
 that have recognised its constitutional name.
 NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Conclusion'''