Talk:Kingdom of Hungary/Archive 1

message: I've created this page not just on its own merit, but also to be able to disambiguate various links from older texts. EB1911 seems to be riddled with subtle references to "Hungary" and "Hungarian" when it actually means people or things part of the old Kingdom, not the present meaning. Juro has noted that in the second paragraph of the Magyars page, which is where Hungarians points to, and subsequently the disambiguation page Hungarian. --Shallot 16:34, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Extended rationale

message: I have done some minor corrections on this page, especially concerning the territory of the Royal Hungary and the Transylvanian Principality, the autonomous nature of the Royal Hungary within the Hapsburg Empire (it wasn't part of the Hereditary Lands, it had their own parliament, institutions and constitution on the contrary with Steiern or Bohemia after 1620) and the end of the monarchy in Hungary in 1946. Please don't delete it!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.183.189.66 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 31 July 2005.
All (or at least most of) your edits are just factually completely wrong (too much errors for me to make just correcting edits). I will delete them until you present a correct version (which however is not necessary because the current version is quite OK). Juro 18:26, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: edits by 81.183.189.66

message: An anonymous editor has added the name in Hungarian recently, but I fail to see the benefit for the reader. Any objections against removing it? KissL 08:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name in Hungarian 

message: "Kingdom of Hungary" was Hungary, the Hungarian state of those times. As you can read on the map: "Magyarország" (country of the Magyars, founded by the Magyars, presentday Hungary is also "Magyarország" in Hungarian). Of course, it was bigger, it was not a republic but a kingdom, and it had minorities (less or more, depending on the given period, but always more then the presentday country). Having this separate article about Hungary before 1918 (19? 20?) reflects a clear Slovak/Romanian/Serbian POV, that holds that the Treaty of Trianon was not a partition of Hungary, but the creation of a "new" Hungarian state ("Hungarian Kingdom"??). The name of this "new" state, however, was the same as the old kingdom ("Magyar Királyság"). There's no separate article for Kingdom of France - it redirects you to France. The same should be applied here. Vay 13:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Kingdom of France and modern France's borders are broadly similar.  Is it POV to have separate articles for the Austrian Empire and for Austria?  For the Ottoman Empire and for Turkey? For Yugoslavia and for Serbia and Montenegro? --Jfruh 15:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, that merging wouldn't be a good idea after all: this "alternative" POV (well, at least compared to ours :) is to be here. But ours should be here as well, that's why I made this small remark. Vay 22:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: This copyright-panic is really crazy. I think this map was drawn by the Hungarian cartographer Manó Kogutowicz who died in 1908. Probably his rights became out of date... Zello 20:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: Ok, then I present why your paragraph is absolutely unacceptable. You are right that the Kingdom of Hungary was a multiethnic state but this is explained in the first sentence of the article. On the other hand the Magyar Királyság in 1920 was a legal successor of the Magyar Királyság (KoH) existed before even by the Treaty of Trianon. The situation is more obvious in 1867 when the consitutional laws of 1848 were restored with some modification. So there is a clear LEGAL continuity between the present Hungary and the state of István. Your attempt to cut this continuity is against the valid laws of Hungary, the WHOLE Hungarian historical literature and common sense. We are speaking about so basic facts and principles that no Hungarian will accept this text.
Examples for serious fatual mistakes and Ant-Hungarian bias: István as the Prince of Nitra???? Where did you find this bullshit?
Magyars were not a nomad people after they settled in the Pannonian Plain. They were half-nomad even before
Latin was the language of the church and state in medieval kingdoms, István only followed Western-Europen examples
Hont and Pázmány were German knights from Svabia according the medieval chronics (pl. Simon Kézai)
As others already said: Royal Hungary was not only on the territory of Slovakia, but Western-Transdanubia and present-day Northeast-Hungary
Pozsony-Pressburg was a German-speaking city until the 20th century. There was hardly any Slovak population in the 16-17th century there.  (This statement is absolutelly incorrect. Milanmm 13:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Absurd claims

message: As far as I know the Kingdom existed till the end of the 2nd world war. In 1918 the kingdom was abolished, but later it was restored. Why do you think that the pre 1918 kingdom and the post 1920 kingdom was two separate state?
I send you a joke, wich was actually a historical fact (it means, that this dialouge happened word-by-word in real life):
Dec. 12, 1940: László Bárdossy tells the US ambassador to Hungary, that Hungary declares war on the US. The next dialouge followed it:
*Ambassador: Hungary is a republic, right?
*L.B.: No, its a kingdom.
*A: So, you have a king?
*L.B: No, we have an admiral.
*A: So, you have a naval fleet.
*L.B.: No, because we don't have access to any sea.
*A: You have any proposals?
*L.B: Yes, we have.
*A: Against the US?
*L.B: No.
*A: Against England?
*L.B: No.
*A:Against Russia?
*L.B: No.
*A:Then against who?
*L.B: Against Romania
*A:So, you'll declare war on Romania also?
*L.B: No sir, we're allies.
It cleares a lot of stuff, from what is intresting here I've bolded. Hope you got it. --VinceB 00:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I hope you got this: After the collapse of Austria-Hungary, the Hungarian Democratic Republic was proclaimed. That even marked the end of the Kingdom of Hungary. The rulers of the republic were aware that Hungarian state will be punished for starting WWI, so they (rulers of Hungary) claimed that this republic is a NEW state that do not have continuity with the formed Kingdom to avoid this punishment. After the Treaty, when new Hungarian borders were defined, the rulers of Hungary changed story. Since they saw that story about discontinuity will not help them to achieve their political goals (we all know what were such goals), they now claimed that Hungarian state have continuity with the former Kingdom. They also named new coutry a kingdom, but it was a NEW kingdom created after the collapse of the old one. And guess what? It is already explained in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary#After_the_first_World_War PANONIAN (talk) 02:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above transcripted conversation was not between Bardossy and the US Ambassador to Hungary, but between Franklin Roosevelt and Cordell Hull, his Secretary of State. See The Hungarians, by Paul Lendvai, Princeton Univeristy Press, 2004. 66.108.4.183 04:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingdom of Hungary from 1000 to 1918? 

message: The History of Hungary template is obviously something it is right to include in this article, since continuity or not, the KoH was a state founded by the Hungarians, and the only place where the Hungarians lived. Feel free to initiate a poll or an RfC if you think it is inappropriate (though I'm puzzled as to how it could be so), but removing it without a clear consensus is not something I can accept. KissL (don't forget to vote!) 12:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having that said, how about a common, merged template for the history of the Carpathian Basil? chery 18:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Individual vertical templates really should be too much for this article. Isn't an all-in-one construction possible? Although horizontally built versions could nicely fit at the end, like in the case of Ulysses S Grant, those are quite out of sight, and thus a little impractical. chery 18:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Hungary template 

message: I put 'The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed' mark as I consider the article biased and partially incorrect. - Milanmm 14:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed 

message: Please, I asked you several times: without a reason, do not delete any content to a version what you think is correct. Maybe you are wrong.--195.56.224.220 13:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To KissL 

message: Since nobody who reverted these changes gave a justification, let me mention that I checked all three references and only one (the PDF) seems to talk about such a point. Aside from its occasionally poor English, it's an interesting paper, but does not draw the conclusion that "Slovak history is invented", rather mentions legendary and unconfirmed elements of what is generally considered history by the average Slovak. However, this phenomenon is common to most peoples, as made clear by the same paper (in case common sense wouldn't remind someone about the legend on Hunnish-Hungarian connection, or the Daco-Romanian continuity theory, and all that stuff).
On a side note, the wording "it is clear that ... seems to be ..." seems to be a clear sign of really badly disguised POV-pushing, to me at least... :)))
In short, this version was badly biased, and I would also have reverted it.
KissL 09:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References on "creating history"? 

message: 1. Ottoman Hungary never existed. This term suggests that there was another Hungarian state under Ottoman tutelage. (partialy true, but it was called Transylvania) The Hungarians use the Subjugated Territories (Hodoltsag) instead
:I agree that Ottoman Hungary never existed and Serbs use term Ottoman Empire instead. :) PANONIAN (talk) 12:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don`t know what is it exactly that you don`t understand. It`s clear as daylight that the term "Ottoman Hungary" does not imply that "there was another Hungarian state under Ottoman tutelage." (←your words). The article has been made according to common sense, and by using pre-existent guidelines (see Ottoman Greece, Ottoman Bulgaria, History of Ottoman Serbia, etc.). I really don`t see what`s the problem. Should there be a sign or something, with big letters writing "ACHTUNG! This article is not about a Hungarian state" for the challenged ones to understand what the articles is about? Avaring 12:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

text: By the Ottoman laws, former territories of the Kingdom of Hungary were both, de jure and de facto part of the Ottoman Empire. By the Habsburg laws...well, let just say that even Jerusalem was "de jure" part of Habsburg monarchy according to those laws, which only show how ridiculous were those Habsburg claims what "rightfully" belong to them. PANONIAN (talk) 12:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And one more interesting thing about Habsburg laws: when Habsburgs pushed out Ottomans from the Pannonian plain, despite this "king of Hungary" stuff in the Habsburg title, they did not treated those lands as "liberated Hungary" but as "new conquered lands" so that they do not have to use Hungarian laws in those lands. PANONIAN (talk) 12:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure, the Habsburgs set up the Neoacquistica Commissio with the help of which they were able to influence the development of different regions in Hungary according to their own interests. But this is another story... --fz22 14:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: They did not exactly "payed" those taxes, but Hungarian "hayduks" in their invasions into Ottoman territory forced local population to "pay taxes" to them. A classic excuse for classic robery. And regarding the fact that Kingdom of Hungary did not recognized something, should we also claim that Northern Ireland is not part of United Kingdom because Ireland does not recognize that? The reign of one country over one territory is recognized and sovereign if MOST (but not necessary all) other countries recognize it. Ottoman Empire was recognized by most other countries as owner of those lands, thus if ONLY ONE country disputed this, it was simply not enough to undermine Ottoman sovereignty. PANONIAN (talk) 13:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Naturally there were difficulties to collect those taxes. What is your point anyway? It is crystal clear that there was a territorial dispute between the two powers (Habsburgs and Ottomans) and the history of the parts under Ottoman occupation is clearly a part of Hungarian history. Bye, Laszlo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.182.180.193 (talk) 09:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "he history of the parts under Ottoman occupation is clearly a part of Hungarian history" - So what else do you want? Avaring 12:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ottoman Hungary 

message: This article is tagged as disputed, but there is no ongoing discussion on its talk page. I wonder if there is anyone really disputing neutrality of the article or we can remove the tag. If you think the article is not neutral, please state your arguments here, so we can improve it. Tankred 15:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly a rather messy article, and needs a lot of improvement, but it doesn't seem POV to me. Also, you're right, nothing is currently being disputed. I'll remove the tag for now, if another dispute flares up we can add it back. K. Lásztocska 00:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed?

message: In July without any discussion Hobartimus change the end of the Kingdom
of Hungary from 1918 to 1944, without any discussion.
 10:05, 5 July 2007 Hobartimus (Talk | contribs) (11,670 bytes) (undo)
It is generally accepted that the end of the Kingdom was 1918 and the
Hungary 1920-1944 was not a continuing state.
Please stop undoing my changes.
Milanmm (talk) 14:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the matter viewed differently by Slovak and Hungarian scholars? If it is disputed, it should be duly noted in the article. Preferably with references for both opinions. rado 15:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless these scholars get to rename countries in other languages (English in this case) its not relevant here, this is the English language wikipedia, not the Slovak one. WP:DNFT also applies here. Hobartimus 16:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see how this particular language issue crept in. Isn't it all about a historical and political continuity of the pre-1918 and post-1920 Hungary? We all know that there are different names coined by certain Slavic scholars, but that is just a terminology issue, not relevant in the English language. rado 10:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I never thought that someone can think about some date after 1918, but it was not the first surprise on en.wiki :) --Wizzard (talk) 07:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the English wikipedia where English names of countries are used. As it happens changing the English language or established names of countries during certain periods to accomodate some POV is not possible. On other wikipedias you might be free to use names invented by yourself for example, but use of English is non-negotiable here. Hobartimus (talk) 09:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why someone would use the name invented by yourself? It is not possible on Wikipedia. The joke is, that you, Hungarians, know that the country till 1918 was not the same like that after 1918. Also, you know that the the Kingdom of Hungary was only a part of Austria-Hungary in 1867–1918 and it was not independent anymore. --Wizzard (talk) 11:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  end of the Kingdom of Hungary 

message: If so many are interested in this subject, I would suggest that the only governing principle should be the TRUTH based on written original evidences. Please, do not take 100% any historians, esp, old ones, rely on sources. (like in Greater Moravia, Balaton, Blaton principality, Franks became Slovaks, the Fulda Annals were neglected, Slovak nationalistic theories prevailed, and all other opinions regularly cleaned from the articles)
THE HISTORY OF HUNGARY KEEPS CHANGING, sounds absurd, but true, please, accept arguments and counterarguments.
Throw away clichees, like Szepes / Zips was Slovak, bacause in the last 500 years few Hungarian lived there. It was German till the late 18th century, and many villages had Hungarian names, not Slavic. So inhabitant of its cities could not be acient Slovaks as oppose to Hungarians, but were Zipsers (as shown in few 15-16th century town law books of that cities and of Buda-Ofen). (please do not debate this here but in the article)
The official name was Regnum Hungaria in EN Hungary, so change this into a Ukrainian, early Polish name makes in my opinion absolutely no sense.
Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia were legally independent kingdoms, bound in personal union to Hungary.
--Vargatamas (talk) 09:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: There is little doubt that the text in that paragraph is adequate. It is true that it would require citations – that's what  tags are for. KissL 12:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please everyone first very carefully read WP:NOR it is not optional it is mandatory policy on Wikipedia. When there are several thousand languages and someone picks out three to make a point that is THE text book example of original resarch if there is one. For example I could easily pick the German, English, Hungarian languages to use as examples or any other that I'd chose based on my research, and remove the ones currently there, but this is exactly why WP:NOR is an official policy, not a user written essay or a guideline. Citations or lack of referencing is not the issue here original research is, and wikipedia policy WP:NOR is quite clear. The question is only, can it be considered OR or not? Hobartimus (talk) 15:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sure no one has ever argued that there are "thousands" languages relevant for this article. There are only few relevant languages (those of the nations living in the KoH) and the ones cited in the article illustrate the point of the paragraph. It is an example illustrating different perspectives on the continuity issue, not a comprehensive list of names in various languages. But I feel that you in reality understand the purpose of that paragraph... Tankred (talk) 16:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There could be thousands just as relevant to Slovene, no offense to Slovene. Also according to wikipedia policy it's not the job of the editor to decide, and cherry pick examples to stregthen his own POV, but merely to report on what research was already done in a subject. Original research must be removed as per WP:NOR, this is not a lowly guideline this is official policy I am sure you can understand and appriciate the difference. Hobartimus (talk) 16:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

text: The nationalities in the territory of the Kingdom of Hungary did not have autonomy (with the exception of Croatians in a late phase) as far as I know, so talking about a 'common state of nations' is more than misleading. Bring a good source for this part to be included. Squash Racket (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: In fact, the first paragraph of that section, about the continuity between the Kingdom of Hungary and the Republic of Hungary is well-referenced, so it may be inserted if there is concensus. I don't mind adding a referenced(!) part about what other nations think about the Kingdom now, but this "multiethnic common state" vision (some kind of federalism) is misleading.Squash Racket (talk) 18:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Please do not confuse this article titled "Kingdom of Hungary" with another one titled "Tankred's personal soapbox". The fact that you can find reference to something, or somebody's opinion does NOT mean automatic inclusion in a Wikipedia article. This is "in contrast" to your personal writings, where low quality edits describing doubious statements "as fact" can be automaticly inserted without as much as a word of discussion. You could further consider that "historical perceptions" section as a whole are possibly highly irrelevant or inappropriate to this important main article which is still a question to be decided.   Hobartimus (talk) 20:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Kissl's version added today seems more acceptable than the previous one, but I wonder what those two references exactly talk about... Squash Racket (talk) 15:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The Kingdom of Hungary bore little resemblance to Hungary, only because it was a multiethnic and later multinational state, which would suggest the Treaty of Trianon was totally fair. That suggestion makes it unacceptable this way. Squash Racket (talk) 17:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither the cited article, nor the discussed paragraph mention the Treaty of Trianon. Although I tried hard, I really do not see how a sentence about the multiethnic character of the Kingdom of Hungary "suggests the Treaty of Trianon was totally fair". Tankred (talk) 02:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The paragraph doesn't mention the Treaty of Trianon, because you keep deleting it. "Being a multiethnic, later multinational state" as the only reason for that little resemblance in territory or population may give a false impression regarding the events after WWI. Squash Racket (talk) 06:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical perceptions stuff 

message: Hello! I am most interested in the subject of witch trials, and have contributed myself with articles in that subject. I think there should be cases representing all countries here on wikipedia. Most countries are now in some way represented, but Hungary is lacking. This is truly a shame, as, judging by the little I have heard, the Hungarian witch trials was quite interesting, as they also involved accusations about vampyrism. There was to have ben a large series of witch trials in Hungary in 1738. Unfortunately, i can't read Hungarian, and the information on the net seems small. Does anyone know anything about this? If anyone here are interested in the subject, I think this would be intereting to read about. I would be grateful for just a stub article, or a name to google. --Aciram (talk) 11:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungarian witch- and vampire trials  

message: Does anybody know what kind of currency was used in this state before Austrian-Hungarian gulden? Thx. --Wizzard (talk) 22:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Currency 

message: hi,
The map represents the historic territory of the Kingdom of Hungary. This territory somewhat varied between historical periods, sometimes it expanded, sometime it decreased. It is just a a indication. --Bizso (talk) 00:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Squash Racket (talk) 06:50, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingdom of Hungary map 

message: This paragraph is about the ethnic composition of Transylvania, most of it will be removed as a scant duplication of the article Origin of the Romanians. It's not possible to mention all the arguments pro and contra in this article in detail. Squash Racket (talk) 06:50, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree we cannot detail this controversy here, except a brief description of the ethnic composition and political status of this territory, please see my edit. Cheers Best4all (talk) 17:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You agree we can not detail the controversy here, still you added honorary member of the Romanian academy who even refers to contemporary Romanian historiography regarding the issue. I also added a brief explanation. Squash Racket (talk) 05:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with both of you that the entire presentation of the debate should be on the Origin of Romanians page, but I see that User:Squash Racket is adding more text against the Daco-Roman continuity theory...I agree to evoke in short both POVs, the actual form  seems acceptable for all, don't you think? Carpaticus (talk) 11:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Too short would be misleading. However, the actual form presents both POVs in a succinct manner, with additional bias on Hungarian arguments, I would say. Carpaticus (talk) 13:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I really understand your POV. Theoretically, you might be somehow right, but practically...you are not. If you remember, the actual paragraphs about this topic from both - Kingdom of Hungary and Transylvania - pages have been built on condensed, succinct, quoted texts - that were absolutely necessary. The information about Transylvania's autonomous status and its complex ethnic history from the very beginning are historic facts that must be clearly presented. And, if you remember, when I added that text about autonomous status of Transylvania before 1526, you challenged it , by requiring a clarification regarding the period, thereafter you added some more information and so on and so forth...If we concentrate the text, it would not be the same as in the original book...you marked my sentences with verification failed, remember? So...practically we have this form that is a compromise...like many others in an encyclopedia. I believe that both articles have the proper emphasis on this topic, the details being discussed in the linked pages. Carpaticus (talk) 14:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Paragraph on ethnic issues in Transylvania

message: Hah, what about Cisleithania? That article should be also merged into Austrian Empire!?? Cisleithania was a name of the Austrian part (The Kingdoms and States represented in the Imperial Council) of Austria-Hungary. Transleithania was an term for the Hungarian part (Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen represented by Hungary) of Austria-Hungary. This article shouldn't be merged into Kingdom of Hungary. nn  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.141.84.67 (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you please clarify? The Kingdom of Hungary was founded in 1000, not 1867. Squash Racket (talk) 06:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Non-magyar nations in Hungary considered the word Hungary to mean multi-nation state. The Magyars considered the word Hungary as synonymous with Magyar, and behaved accordingly. We can blame passivity of our ancestors for not insisting on the distinction; we can blame the A-H Kings on not explaining the meaning of Hungary right at the beginning of the A-H Monarchy. The distinction should, nay, must!, be examined and explained by the linguists, historians and eventually politicians. Until that is done our great and talented Magyar nation will continue to suffer under unnecessary illusions.
Charles K. Hatvani
charles794@gmail.com  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.255.163 (talk) 00:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linguistics 

message: ""The territories of medieval Hungary were second to the Holy Roman Empire and its population was the third largest in Europe." - Absolutely not true- Kingdom of Hungary had only 3.5 mil. inhabitants. France, Polish-Lithuanian union, Castilia etc. were larger states with more inhabitants. Attilaxx (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misinformation: 

message: Friends, try to be less sentimental. 
"brilliant campaigns of the great Hungarian general, Artúr Görgey"???- As I know Kossuth was critical to Gorgey
A story on 72 hussars who stoped 3 regiments is great example of a valor of Hungarionas, but it does not belong to the general article on the Kingdom of Hungary.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hungarus7 (talk • contribs) 23:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-adequate romanticism 

message: Thanks for your changes. But I think that it is necessary to distinguish between Slavic languages and therefote it si better to itemize them,For exampkle Bulgarians and Polish do not pay attention to a difference between the modern Hungary and the historical Kngdom of Hungary. 
the Czech language (but outside of the Kingdom) has the most detailed classification:
Uhersko- the Kingdom of Hungary
Uhry - proper "inner" Hungary (modern Hungary and Slovakia and Ruthenia)
Madarsko- today modern Hungarioan or Magyar ethnical state
In the Russian language there is  no difference between the Kingdom of Hungary and the modern Hungary (There is not any "Ugria" and "Madaria")
but sometimes Russians distinguish between "Vengri" - all inhabitants of the Kingdom of Hungary (members of political "natio hungarica") and "Madari" - members of the hungarioan etnical antion.
I think that my original version was more exact. 
Also a mention of different points of views on the character of the Kingdom (was it a mulitnational state in which all ethnical groups wetre os should have been equal and forming together one political but not ethnical nation ("natio hungarica", "Uhri", "Ugri") OR the primary Magyar national ethnical state with some ethnical minorities???)is necessary. It was a question for which people used to kill each other (1848-1849, 1914-1919)and it was the amin reason of the desintegration of the Kingdom in 1918. Attilaxx (talk) 06:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  For Quorilla: 

message: The main argument of Hungarian historians about the representation of Hungarioans which should be higher than 30-40% before Ottoman wars is that the central parts of the Kingdom were more populated than perpherial ones (see: ). But even if Slovaks, Serbians, Croatians, Romanians accept it, they argue that Slavs (some proto-Slovaks and proto-Croatians) lived in high numbers also in the areas of Matra, Tokaj, Balaton etc. Have you sometime seen a bottle of Tokaj? :-) What terminology is used? :-) "Sedmputnovy?" (It means Slavic) 
What would you tell about this map? :-) 
::That must be a joke. Qorilla (talk) 17:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  For Quorilla: 

message: See this map of the Haplogroup R1a distribution in Euroepan populations:  
It shows that modern Hungarioan are almost fully "integrated" in a group of Slavic peoples. "Genetically" they are Slavic people speaking non-Slavic language and with a non-Slavic political and ethnical identity and tradition. 
It means that in one current moment in history (In 10th century? in 15th century? I do no know and do not try to guess) the bacil population of the Carpatian Basin (with exception of Transylvania) were Slavs and original (nomadic) Magyars were only a small -but maybe politically dominat- group among them.
But a group which was capable to assimilate them. The situation in which relatively small group of conquerors (which is in social dominat position) assimilated the more numerous populations is very well known in ethnology(so called assimilation from up to down). Even in the English language we have about 30-40% of French words- as a result of 1066 Norman conquest- and the amount of Frenchspeaking knights was very limited!
Another argument is  "demografic":
The amount of nomadic Magyars having invaded Carpathian Basin (cca 900 A.d.) was aabout 200 000. The transfer of abigger group is impossible in 9th century. 
In 1100 the kingdom of Hungary had about 1.5- 2 mil. inhabitants. 
It is not realistic to expect that a group of 200 000 people in the existing conditions could have multiplied itself to for example 0.8- 1.0 mil.people. 
Therefore:
a) either "real ethnical Hungarians" in 1100 represented only a minority of the populatien and inhabited cca 10-20 % of the whole territory of the Kongdom
b) or they were dispersed as a minority over the whore territory but nowhere represented a real majority
c) or they were in 1100 mixed with Slavs to extend which enabled them to create a "core" of the population.
Probably the all three sittuations occured in a combination of factors which were favorable for a development of collective identity based on tradition of nomadic Magyars. At least on territory of the today Hungary on which original nomadic Magyars as conquerors replaced the class of local Slavic and Frankish warriors. (In middle Ages the identity of local gentry was a crucial factor for ethnical awareness of the whole population). 
Probably, as the Principality of Nyitra (see: ) was in 920-1000 ruled by different branch of Arpad dynasty, and was fully integtrated in the Kingdom only in 1163 and its political development in that time was specific, the local class of Slavic warriors was not replaced by  ethnical Magyars and as itself was a basis for a development of Slovak national identity.
You may comapre it with an English-Welsh relation or a realations in Central Asia where original Iranian population was first conquered by Turks and after a several centuries of development  and bilingualism 4 modern nations speak Tukrish languages and one (Tajiks) Indoeropean language. Antropologicaly Kazakhs and Kirgizes are a mixture  between europieds and mongoloids, but Turkish speaking Uzbeks and Turkmens are mostly europoids- it means that geneticall thy are descendens of Saks, Tocahr, Bactrians etc. but "lingustically" of ancient Turks.
Attilaxx (talk) 21:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your text is a bit long for me to read right now, but according to your section-title giving manners and your edits you are not quite neutral and unbiased in this question, to say at least. I'll read it later. Qorilla (talk) 21:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a historian and did not devote too much time to do original research in the topic and only read interpretations. I can say I'm not convinced by your lines, and would rather write about something else. I don't understand this Hungarophobia of our neighbors. They seem to devote their lives to disprove the origins and deprive Hungary of its history, but I don't see what they want to achieve by it. Even if someone found that Hungarians have Slavic ancestries mixed in, what would it prove? Does it constitute an excuse to hate Hungarians? I actually don't see how this whole hate-campaign is favourable to them. What being Hungarian meant through centuries (in linguistic, genetic and cultural-affiliation dimensions) is obscure and has changed several times throughout history. I don't see why you may feel you can do harm (if that is the intention) to current Hungarians if you prove that Hungarians were more held together by language than genetics. Or if their culture had broader effects, even outside Hungarian-speakers. Whatever your intentions are with trying to prove these points, I think they are substantially mistaken. All in all, Hungarians created and maintained a state in (for the most part the geographically united area of) the Carpathian Basin for more than 1000 years under their name, and had a kingdom in which there were also other ethnicities, who could live in peace for most of the time until the French idea of nationalism in the late 1700s stirred up the relations in the basin. And now people try to prove their visioned 'superiority' over Hungarians by digging in history in a paranoid way to find excuses to their hate, as they can hardly find any reason in the present. Qorilla (talk) 21:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maybe not only a  joke, dear Qorilla :-) 

message: These Kingdoms were newer part of Kingdom of Hungary. This is a major mistake and false interpretation. The named Croatian Kingdoms and the Kingdom of Hungary had the same King, that is true. Therefore, the map of the Kingdom of Hungary is historical falsificate. The map shown represents all the Kingdoms that were ruled by one king.
Croatia remained separate triune kingdom with its own parliament, taxation and laws. That does not seem to be the same kingdom for many.
And King of triune Croatian Kingdom (K. of Croatia, K. of Dalmatia and K. of Slavonia) was coronated in the city of Biograd na moru and not in Budapest. And the oficial name of the common King was "King of Hungary, Dalmatia and Croatia" - NOT only King of Hungary!!!
Therefore:  I protest against this falsification of historical map of Kingdom of Hungary as it includes Kingdom of Croatia and Dalmatia. Kingdoms of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia were never part of the Kingdom of Hungary as the king himself did not claim such things. He was king of these separate kingdoms.
It is stated that in this article "provinces of Croatia and Slavonia were autonomous". That is also a falsificate. Neither they were provinces nor they were autonomous but they were SEPARATE kingdoms. So states and the title of the common King that was crowned SEPARATELY in Croatian city Biograd na moru for the Croatian crown.
One other issue - Croatian and Hungarian crown were united under one king in 1102 and not any earlier as stated in the article.
Please, check the coat of arms of the kingdom (2/3 are croatian simbols - kingdom of Croatia-red-white chess field; three golden lion heads in blue background - kingdom of dalmatia and under this coat of arms of kingdom of Slavonia). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Ungarische_L%C3%A4nder_1867_(Mittel).png
Hope I succeded to solve some ignorance that is present in this article, not to go to other issues.
Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 21:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Dalmatia was in the "Austria" half of Austria-Hungary so Dalmatia is not an issue here. Croatia-Slavonia was autonomous to a large degree apart from handling it's own affairs, there was even a Croatian delegation as sitting MPs in the Parliament of Hungary. But your English is not very good so maybe you are confused. Dalmatia was not united with Croatia-Slavonia during this time, but Dalmatia was completely separate. Hobartimus (talk) 23:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Hungary was recognized as Kingdom in 1000 A.D., without any connection to Croatia, Slavonia or Dalmatia. Anything you write about Croatia only applies to a later part of history and not since the foundation. But there is a separate issue, I don't understand the stuff regarding Dalmatia. During what years can we talk about Dalmatia being included? Wasn't this a very short time? Hobartimus (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingdom of Croatia, Kingdom of Slavonia and Kingdom of Dalmatia 

message: In the Kingdom of Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavona, besides Latin, languages spoken and used in writing were Croatian, Latin and Byzantine Greek.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 21:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You can find the article of Croatia-Slavonia, but there is no Dalmatia in that article only Croatia and Slavonia. Dalmatia was not united with Croatia-Slavonia during this time, but Dalmatia was completely separate. Hobartimus (talk) 23:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official languages 

message: Can someone explain me why the term province instead of Kingdom is used for Croatia? Croatia had its own crown and every king that wanted to carry that title had to be crowned for the croatian throne in Croatia. I dont see any good reason for this expression. I cant find article province of Croatia as well...
Toroko, I am waiting for your reply, otherwise I will undo your vandalism, as you called my revision that had the purpose to make it correct, not vandalise. But I am not a vandal as you are as I am inviting you to give arguments about your change. And also, waiting.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Province" of Croatia 

message: The coat of arms used in the article is only one of many that were used in the Kingdom. The section about the coat of arms was obviously done by someone who isn't very familiar with the history or by someone with bad intentions. 
I suggest to provide all the coats of arms used or to give the timespan when was the provided coat of arms used. Otherwise, this article is misleading in many ways.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 20:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coat of arms 

message: Substituted at 20:39, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment