Talk:Swedish Army rank insignia

message: Agree with the change, but admission requirements are way too low to consider MHS a post secondary school. For example, the requirement of [Math B] corresponds to primary school level in most countries. Moreover, the school has so far not been recognized as a college or university grade institution for its 2 year programme, yet the School is negotiating with the board of higher education to grant students some college level credits for its newly established 3 year programme. Looking at the def. of "Military Academy" in Wikipedia, MHS should therefore be considered a High School-level institution rather than a University-level institution.  
Malin —Preceding unsigned comment added by MalinLindquist (talk • contribs)  20:15, 16 July 2006
:Does entry to the MHS presuppose completed gymnasium? If it does, it is a post-secondary education. Moreover, "Military Academy" is the official English translation, as you can see from the webpage. BTW, please log in and use four tildes (~~~~) to sign and add a datestamp to your comments. It makes discussion pages easier to follow. This page would need some refactoring to get the chronology of the comments clear, but I may do that at some other time. up+land 16:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The change to "Military Academy"

message: Note: The comments above were mostly added in a completely haphazard way, not formatted in accordance with Wikipedia house style and not properly signed with usernames or IPs using four tildes (~~~~), making it impossible to see who wrote what, when the comments were made or if they were made in reply to something else. I have reconstructed the flow of the talkpage, reformatted some text with bullets and paragraph breaks, and added signatures and timestamps from the history. up+land 17:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Note on refactoring of page

message: To reply to the last line above - troops abroad is basically the only standing force of the Swedish Army (se below for more details). 
==== Incorrect ====
The information on the Army Rank Insignia page is fraudulent – it is modified by biased Swedish officers who deliberately attempt to create an illusion that Swedish ranks are two to three levels higher than what they actually represent. Also, those authors show poor knowledge regarding ranks and organizations of other nations.
==== Some examples ====
*	First Sergeant is ranked below a Staff Sergeant, which is wrong as First Sergeant is four levels above a Staff Sergeant. 
*	First Sergeant is not just a team-leader of 5-8 men. 
*	The rank Corporal is not just a training rank gained after 6 months of basic training. 
*	The rank Sergeant is not a non-commanding rank for riflemen and specialists. 
==== Some notes about Swedish ranks ====
*	Kapten = responsible for the training of a platoon of recruits. 
Top 30 Kaptens may be selected to serve as platoon commanders. However, most Kaptens will never be assigned to command troops. 
*	Lojtnant = instructor of recruits.  
Top 30 Lojtnants may serve as deputy platoon commanders. However, most Lojtnant will never be assigned to command troops.  
*	Fanrik = assistant instructor of recruits. 
Why may an overwhelming majority of officers such as (Overstelojtnant, Major, Kapten, Lojtnant, Fanrik) never lead troops? Simply, there are almost no troops to lead. Consider:
* Fact 1: Sweden has some 3,500 (Major and Överstelöjtnt), 8,000 (Kapten, Lojtnant, Fanrik), and 10,953 (reserve Major, Kapten, Lojtnant, Fanrik)
* Fact 2: Sweden Army has less than 1,000 men standing today and may mobilize two mechanized/infantry/tank battalions plus some auxiliary companies within a year.
==== Admission requirement to be hired as an officer to receive two years High School level schooling and some military training at MHS (Military Academy) ====
* Have received 10 months of conscript training and reached the rank private(Menig) or higher. Conscripts recieve the rank (Menig, Furir, Sergeant and Fanrik) depending on apitude where private(menig) is the lowest. 
* Vocational School (less than corresponding High School in other countries)
* MathB which corresponds to Junior High School level math in other countries.
==== There are no Overfurir or Fanjunkare in the Army ====
Please see the official rank page of the Swedish Armed Forces: http://www.mil.se/article.php?id=432. Overfurir and Fanjunkare are still listed as officer ranks in the Armed Forces regulatory document since there are some hand-full remaining holders of such ranks at some volunteer military related organizations. Still, there are no Overfurir or Fanjunkare in the Army.
==== Fanrik, Lojtnant, Kapten, Major who become officers after 1982 (NBO) are non-commissioned officers. ==== 
To classify Swedish officers as commissioned officers is an attempt to equate Swedish officers to that of commissioned officers of the US.  First, the system of commissioning officers (officersfullmakt) was abolished 1982 by NBO (New Leader Order) and the term officer changed to denote all salaried military personnel with the lowest rank set to Fanrik. Swedish officers are, thus, officer without a commission and to use US-term: non-commissioned officers.  Secondly, Swedish officers such as (Fanrik, Lojtnant, Kapten) are almost identical to junior non-commissioned officers in the US when considering, position, responsibly, seniority, education, etc.  
==== Statements without grund ====
* The user "MalinLindquist" is either lying through her teeth or completely ignorant. It's doubful if she has ever been in touch the Swedish Armed Forces
* I strongly recommend that translations are to be made in terms of meaning of the language rather than comparison between the use of different ranks and commands.
* Several active, reserve and conscript personnel are active in correcting Malins somewhat bizarre view of the world.
As I stated before, there are basically no scholastic requirements to be hired as a Swedish officer, which is easy to understand considering expressions such as above. They merely express feelings, angers, frustrations, etc in the absence of facts, arguments or counter arguments. 
"meaning of the language"
Hakan is translating solely based on syntactical similarities and completely disregards the meaning = semantic = definition of ranks.
=== In general ===
==== Discipline ====
I would discourage from editing the main page directly to reflect the view of one single person, without consensus and without discussing it first; or the page will be treated as junk. This is not a page to promote ones rank internationally several levels higher than what it represents, it is a page to inform its reader about Swedish ranks and how they relate. 
==== Importance of ranks ====
Ranks do play a very important role during battle as subordinates often face the issue whose order to honor. The rule is to obey the order from the officer of higher rank to assure that best possible tactics apply. For such reason, a Swedish officer who is qualified to command a platoon should not have a rank that is senior to an officer that is qualified to command a company. 
==== The situation must be dealt by wikipedia.org. ====
If an organization decides to rename Corporals and Sergeants to Fanrik, Lojtnant and Kapten respectively, should wikipedia.org till translate those ranks to Lieutenant and Captains? Put it in another way, if all crew members, including stewardess, of an Airline company receives titles such as co-pilots and captains, should wikipedia.org translate stewardess to pilot, because the person has such rank there?   Moreover, should wikipeida.org fall for the pressure from stewardess of that company to stick with the translation?
I would urge officer of other nations, such as from the US, to present their view on this.
Malin Lindquist
=== Response to argument by Malin Lindquist ===
====Counter====
The Swedish Armed Forces with the blessing of EU/NATO organizations translate the ranks into British Army ranks in the manner that are currently listed on the article page. (See link at top of page for verification)
These translations are, for instance, used on name badges during international missions in order for the military forces of other countries to easier collaborate with the Swedish, again with the blessing of EU/NATO organizations.
Current examples of these translations in active use can be found in Swedish units serving under NATO command in Kosovo and Afghanistan, various UN missions including in Liberia and soon the same translations will be used for the upcoming EU Nordic Battlegroup.
Therefore, as the translations are in official use by the Swedish Armed Forces with the approval of the three dominant international organizations (EU/NATO/UN) it should without question take precedence over subjective and arbitrary judgments presented by individual wikipedia users. If deemed necessary by wikipedia consensus a "Conflicting opinions" section could be added at the bottom of the page to present alternative views.
Överfurir and Fanjunkare, as is mentioned on the article page, remains an active rank which cannot presently be permanently appointed. However current appointees retain their rank until such time as they are promoted and in addition the ranks are in active use for temporary appointments on international missions. A specific instance where överfurir is used is MP team leaders which have completed the Swedish civilian national police academy.
(See exampel of MP team leader with the four bars of an överfurir here: http://www.mil.se/int/images/local/la02_v441_mp2.jpg )
Likewise fanjukare is used on a limited basis, therefore, taken together with them listed as active ranks by official Swedish Armed Forces publications they are fully deservant of being listed on this rank table.
The rank listing linked to is older in origin and stems from a period when the Armed Forces had decided to phase out the two ranks in question in their entirety, a decision since reversed.
The NATO codes listed on the page has been derived from those the British Army assigns to the rank the Swedish Armed Forces have translated the respective Swedish ranks into. Currently this is the best source available as no official translation directly into NATO codes have surfaced yet.
====Conclusion====
The arrangement of the rank translations in the tables as they currently stand are valid, supported by official publications and international organizations and should not be altered unless changes to the official translations are made by the Swedish Armed Forces.
Again, arbitrary judgments by individual wikipedia users in contrast to existing written sources must not take precedence.
MicaelJ 13:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedish Army ranks are two to three levels too high [[User:MalinLindquist|MalinLindquist]] 12:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC) 

message: ====Counter====
The Swedish Armed Forces with the blessing of EU/NATO organizations translate the ranks into British Army ranks in the manner that are currently listed on the article page. (See link at top of page for verification)
These translations are, for instance, used on name badges during international missions in order for the military forces of other countries to easier collaborate with the Swedish, again with the blessing of EU/NATO organizations.
Current examples of these translations in active use can be found in Swedish units serving under NATO command in Kosovo and Afghanistan, various UN missions including in Liberia and soon the same translations will be used for the upcoming EU Nordic Battlegroup.
Therefore, as the translations are in official use by the Swedish Armed Forces with the approval of the three dominant international organizations (EU/NATO/UN) it should without question take precedence over subjective and arbitrary judgments presented by individual wikipedia users. If deemed necessary by wikipedia consensus a "Conflicting opinions" section could be added at the bottom of the page to present alternative views.
Överfurir and Fanjunkare, as is mentioned on the article page, remains an active rank which cannot presently be permanently appointed. However current appointees retain their rank until such time as they are promoted and in addition the ranks are in active use for temporary appointments on international missions. A specific instance where överfurir is used is MP team leaders which have completed the Swedish civilian national police academy.
(See exampel of MP team leader with the four bars of an överfurir here: http://www.mil.se/int/images/local/la02_v441_mp2.jpg )
Likewise fanjukare is used on a limited basis, therefore, taken together with them listed as active ranks by official Swedish Armed Forces publications they are fully deservant of being listed on this rank table.
The rank listing linked to is older in origin and stems from a period when the Armed Forces had decided to phase out the two ranks in question in their entirety, a decision since reversed.
The NATO codes listed on the page has been derived from those the British Army assigns to the rank the Swedish Armed Forces have translated the respective Swedish ranks into. Currently this is the best source available as no official translation directly into NATO codes have surfaced yet.
====Conclusion====
The arrangement of the rank translations in the tables as they currently stand are valid, supported by official publications and international organizations and should not be altered unless changes to the official translations are made by the Swedish Armed Forces.
Again, arbitrary judgments by individual wikipedia users in contrast to existing written sources must not take precedence.
MicaelJ 13:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to argument by Malin Lindquist 

message: The arrangement of the rank translations in the tables as they currently stand are valid, supported by official publications and international organizations and should not be altered unless changes to the official translations are made by the Swedish Armed Forces.
Again, arbitrary judgments by individual wikipedia users in contrast to existing written sources must not take precedence.
MicaelJ 13:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Conclusion

message: First I just have to say, wow! Was a while ago I checked this article. Really like what has happened to this article since I started it, as well as making the images (still have the original XCF file).
When I wrote it I wasn't so sure about many things, but I had a pretty good idea. And I did make several decisions on my own regarding the translations. Hoping it would be corrected by those interested. I just wanted to provide the basics.
I write this because the discussion has been alot of "what's in use today". I felt it neccesary to bring another side of the story...
My idea of this article was to inform the reader as the current ranks used, as well as the historical context of them. This because Sweden has made many changes to it's Military service system over the years and thus the way ranks are used.
The Vice Korpral Rank
A comment worth of mention is the undergoing debate over re-introducing the Vice Korpral rank again. Well, at least I've heard many officers expressing this wish, as well as some arguments published in Insats & Försvar (insändare, cant properly translate) and other military magazines.
Reason for this is to promote those who serve 10- or 7.5-months and can never exceed above Menig, but are of that character they deserve a promation. A way of saying thank-you, as well as a bait for people to excell as soldiers.
As the Departement of Service (Pliktverket) decides wether a person will be promoted or not, at drafting. This is in contradiction with many other nation's professional armies, when you have to earn your rank (U.S. minimum of 6 months with each rank + CO recommendation).
The current system does not reward good soldiers, and there are many examples where prives should have been the Squad Leader and vice versa. Sadly.
Back to the subject. Even though some ranks are not widly used anymore, but still mentioned alot, should be mentioned in the article. To exemplify, no-one has objected to the rank Fältmarsalk. This hasn't been used for over 100 years. And cannot even be found in the HQ's official publications. But still no-one objects about it's presence in this article. Why?
I think because it puts the ranks in a historical perspective people are interested to learn.
And yet another rank to mention is the Kornett' rank. Same as Fänrik, but used by the cavalry. Even though the HQ doesn't publish this rank. Many officers in the cavalry likes to use it, to distinguish themselfs from the rest of the army. Notice that the cavalry still organize in Squadrons, not Companies. Although this is the same.
Kornett, An alternative of Fänrik
Fänrik was the youngest officer in his company and, as such, responsible for carring the company banner, Fana.
The Kornett in a cavalry squadron was the youngest officer in his squadron and then responsibile for the Kornett (means exactly Cornet). Everyone knows the "Attack" signal from U.S. 19th-century cavalry from cowboy movies. That job of signaling was the job of a Kornett. Simply put.
Summarizing
This article can really be great with alot of historical information, which are hardly known anymore to the general public. Alot of these information cant even be found at a regular library today. You'd have to go to a museum to find it.
After I did my service and talked to some people who did their service 40 years ago, some are stunned by the fact that there's no such thing as Kvartersmästare/Ryttmästare anymore.
And I likewise stunned hearing this would actually be a rank. I have no further information regarding this, and would really appreciate anyone who did to share it.
This comment have now really expanded way beyond what I first intended. But I hope I've made it clear to people what I mean.
This article should, beside informing the reader of current ranks, also contain the context of use, as well as historical backgrounds of ranks, including out-of-date ranks.
That was one the ideas of this article to begin with. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, an historical context is not out-of-subject. Rather the opposite, enlighten people of the history of a particular subject so he/she may understand the present better. Those interested in learning the swedish ranks should also be interested in learning why they exist. And for what purpose they have served. And as described above, why a officer in a cavalry regiment may introduce himself as Kornett, while there doesn't exist such a rank today.
Faffia 23:21, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My initial thoughts of this article 

message: Have edited the article to re-arrange the text which previously were before the insignia tables to now be after.
Note that removed the leading text:
The only logical definition of an officer is 'one who holds a commision'. There is no confusion regarding this. All reserve and serving (reserv- och yrkes) officers in Sweden hold a commision. Basing the rank structure on which level officers serve in deployments abroad is incorrect. Nor should the rank structure of the US Army be considered the sine qua non of armed forces ranks.
Because this text, which in fact is a debate argument, does not belong in the article itself, but rather in this discussion.
The comment about Fanjunkare and Överfurirer by MichaelJ posted in this discussion was also added to the article. It should be included to inform the reader why it's still listed.
Re-added the abbrivation listing for the ranks. Don't know who did remove it. This data is very useful for anyone interested as they are rarely published anywhere. But they are used everywhere! They print it on name tags, sign papers with it. It's even common to see it on the officers ID cards.
I have been unable to find a official document from the HQ dictating the abbrivations, so I prove they are all correct. Please change it if you know the correct one.
And finally, I did change the translations (sigh!?). But I did it in accordance to "The Facts 2005", as published by Högkvarteret [HQ]. Personally I agreed better with the previous translation. But the HQ decition takes precedence.
Faffia 16:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-arrangement of article 

message: Article should be re-written corresponding to the new structure as of January 1st 2009.
See main article at (in Swedish)
http://www.mil.se/sv/Nyheter/centralanyheter/Beslut-om-tvabefalssystem/
http://www.mil.se/upload/dokumentfiler/Nyhetsdokument/Tabell_nya_grader_(OR).pdf  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faffia (talk • contribs) 09:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change of Personel structure as of 1 January 2009