Talk:Palace of Justice siege

message: when colombians think of the seige, the image of the old palace of justice comes in mind. Do you think it would be better to change the main image on top to be the old palace of justice or the palace of justice during the attack instead of the new one? (since it already features at the end of the article)
thank you Minako-Chan* (talk) 19:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: change of picture

message: http://www.cromos.com.co/historico/2005-11-25/contenido_MI-3152.htm
2005-11-25
The OFFICE OF THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR WILL CALL TO DECLARE, 20 YEARS LATER, To EX- PRESIDENT BELISARIO BETANCUR BY The FACTS Of The JUSTICE PALACE. THE JOURNALIST ANA CARRIGAN ALREADY HAD TRIED TO JOIN THE PIECES.
its first trip to Colombia Ana Carrigan saw from a window, in street 37, how Bogota crumbled. He was 1948. April of 1948. Then, in the heat of horror of the Bogotazo, knew - with the incredulous eyes of an Earth girl of its mother and was enchanted right away by its familiar past. 
They spent the years and grew the sleepy illusion to return and to work in the country. And it obtained it in the middle of the 60. "Then I realized reality of Colombia and Latin America. Not it reality of my family, an elite ". Then, also, he fortified theParga-Corte's side of his blood, (Tolima) removed its Colombian roots in Dolores, and Rafael eeted again itself with his uncle.
The twin brother of his mother was a great influence in his life and a great inspiration in his work. An anxious, politically liberal until the marrow, academic and democratic man. In fact in his present literary project he follows the route of Rafael Courteous Parga. To traverse his he gives to an incisive glance to the violence of the 40 and the 50 him, where - according to the author one begins to understand history of Colombia.
Of a mere labor chance, Carrigan was in favor in Colombia in November of 1985. (it had arrived with the idea to roll a documentary one on gamines of Bogota when the headquarters of Colombian justice exploded in flames) That coincidence, years later, it finished turned a book with his documented version of one of the most non-uniform and chilling episodes of the country: the Palace of Justice. 
In that occasion it remained 10 days and, with the fright of the very fresh happened thing, it ran to New York to propose history to him to a publisher who knew in the New York Times, for the dominical magazine of the newspaper. Already mentalizada to write a journalistic piece, it returned in May of 1986 to work in his investigation.
And that made with a great rigor to commemorate the first anniversary of the taking. But, when he was all ready one to print, they announced to him that the note would not be published because did not have the version of Belisario Betancur. She tried to explain that the President did not speak of the subject with anybody but was useless. She never published herself. 
Then that unpublished writing began to him to weigh and it dedicated itself to look for one editorial to turn it book. After five years and a contract in its salary, returned to continue investigating in the happened thing and in 1993, with very good critics, it presented/displayed the Palace of Justice: a Colombian tragedy. But, for his surprise, never it was translated the Spanish. 
Its motivation to write on controversial subjects of the region (it also has a book on the conflict in El Salvador) is clear. "it makes sick to see to Me how the official versions of history are as much successful. Of all the problems that Colombia suffers today, for me, most serious - the one than allows and stimulates all evils is impunity, that in the last 20 years has arrived at a grotesca dimension ".
S
or book has a deep historical value, although it is first in recognizing that she has his faults. "I frankly regret not to have looked for thorough more the participation of the Mafia. I believed what they had considered the courts. Today I cannot think that the M-19 took the Palace without financial aid. I do not believe that the Mafia had paid to the M-19 so that it killed the judges. I think that the motivation was, probably, to destroy the files ". 
In Colombia nobody is responsible. Nobody admits its errors, nobody in the power never requests pardon. 
In the Spanish practitioner who learned of girl and who still conserves, it speaks from England without it fails the memory to him of the desperate shout of Alfonso Kings EchandÃ­a. Of the necessity of the Commission of the Truth, the tortured ones in the School of Cavalry, of the Aryan disappear, Jesus Cabrales, AndrÃ©s Almarales... 
Fundamentally the thesis of my book is simple. Part of which the democracy in Colombia is a false democracy, cradle in lies and masks, behind which the political class and the rich classes manages to manipulate their interests and to cover the truths of a dramatic reality. A reality of poverty, abandonment and indifference by the life. But during the 27 hours of the battle on the inside and by outside the Palace of Justice, those masks fell. The essential character of this society and its leaders came to the light and for the first time was spread by radio and television to the whole country. 
For that reason it is that it was necessary - since made minister NoemÃ­ SanÃ­n- telephone cut communications with the Palace to silence the voice of the President of the Court, and to order that that night, while the hostages agonized and burned the Palace, the television transmitted the scenes of the soccers match and the Aid of Beauty from Cartagena. 
In my book there is the testimony of a judge, widow of whom was attending of the President of the Court, with who I long spoke six years after the tragedy. She says following it:
' In my opinion the most catastrophic consequence of which happened in the Palace of Justice is that it revealed the true character of the political class of this country. Lamentably Colombia suffers of amnesia and we have arrived at such point of insensibilidad and cruelty that the life no longer has value. The right does not have valor'. 
And I ask myself: She will be why to anybody it seemed rare to him that Mrs. SanÃ­n went Chancellor from Colombia to the six years of these facts? By that amnesia she will be that almost three million Colombians voted by her for the Presidency of the country? And she will be why nowadays, to the great majority of the Colombians, she matters to them I comine the luck of the kidnapped ones of the CRAF?
Ana Carrigan Parga is enthusiastic and forceful when speech of Colombia, the country that takes in its veins and that although wants the editorials have given the back him to their closeer investigation.
Ana Carrigan Speaks
If that night of the 7 of November the President of the Republic had found the force moral to tell to the country the truth, everything would be different. I think that it had done possible to begin to construct, on ashes of deads of the Palace, the bases of a true state of right. In a state thus, the whole society had had the space and the possibilities of demanding responsibilities. 
Because in Colombia nobody is responsible. Nobody admits its errors, nobody in the power requests pardon. And never there are consequences. To the 20 years of the Palace, only some of the old M-19 (Gustavo Petro, Navarrese Antonio or Otty Patino) have asked pardon the victims by the errors of their old leaders.
Signed: Travb 02:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good question, especially because she doesn't give any specific reason for the change (though she seems to have few or no doubts about her other conclusions and statements). I don't know, but maybe she has had time to talk to other people she didn't talk to before, read other things, etc. and all that may have made her modify her previous beliefs. Juancarlos2004 03:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: babelfish.altavista.com translation of the cromos.com article

message: ::What I do know now, after confirming it with a quick Google search, is that at least the sons of two of the magistrates that died in the Palace of Justice (Mauricio Gaona and Carlos Medellín Becerra) do seem to believe that there was an M-19 / mafia link, and apparently have access to some alleged evidence on the subject. See here:
::::Documentos que probarían los supuestos vínculos del Movimiento 19 de Abril, M-19, con el fallecido narcotraficante Pablo Escobar en los hechos que terminaron en la toma del Palacio de Justicia fueron entregados por el ex ministro Carlos Medellín Becerra al presidente Álvaro Uribe Vélez. El ex ministro es hijo del magistrado Carlos Medellín Forero, quien murió en el asalto realizado por el grupo guerrillero el 5 de noviembre de 1985.
::::“En uno se habla de que Pablo Escobar pagó cinco millones de dólares por la toma del Palacio de Justicia. Tengo otro documento que demuestra que Escobar, con un líder del M-19, negoció la cabeza del magistrado Alfonso Reyes Echandía (quien ejercía como presidente del alto tribunal en ese momento) en un millón de dólares y otro millón de dólares por la quema de los expedientes de la extradición”, dijo el Ex ministro.
::::Según Medellín, los documentos deben ser evaluados por las autoridades judiciales .“Son indicios que se han venido recogiendo en los últimos 20 años sobre la relación entre el Cartel de Medellín y el M-19”, agregó. Otros testimonios. El abogado Mauricio Gaona, hijo del ex magistrado Manuel Gaona, quien falleció en la toma del Palacio de Justicia, indicó que su padre, un día antes del hecho, los reunió en su hogar y les informó que estaba siendo objeto de amenazas contra su vida, al parecer, por parte del Cartel de Medellín. 95 personas murieron en la toma el Palacio de Justicia el 5 de noviembre de 1985, en el gobierno de Belisario Betancur.
::::“Los magistrados de la Corte que se encontraban ese día estudiando la exequibilidad o no del tratado de extradición y las leyes que los rigen estaban amenazados previamente por el Cartel de Medellín y en el caso de mi padre como magistrado ponente su posición era de constitucionalidad o exequibilidad total”, comentó Gaona. 
::http://elpais-cali.terra.com.co/paisonline/notas/Octubre062004/A206N2.html
::
::::Documents that would prove the supposed bonds del Movement 19 of April, M-19, with the deceased narcotics trafficker Pablo Escobar in the facts which they finished in the taking del Palace of Justice were given by ex- minister Carlos Medellín Yearling calf al president Alvaro Uribe Vélez. The ex- minister is son of the magistrate Carlos Jurisdictional Medellín, who died in the assault made by the guerrilla detachment the 5 of November of 1985. 
::::"In one he is spoken of which Pablo Escobar paid five million dollars by the taking of the Palace of Justice. I have other document that demonstrates that Escobar, with a leader of the M-19, negotiated the head of the magistrate Alfonso Kings Echandía (who exerted as president of the high court then) in a million dollars and another million dollars by burn it of the files of the extradition ", said the Ex- minister. 
::::According to Medellín, the documents must be evaluated by the judicial authorities "Son indications that have come gathering in the last 20 years on the relation between the Poster of Medellín and the M-19", added. Other testimonies. Lawyer Mauricio Gaona, son of ex- magistrate Manuel Gaona, who passed away in the taking of the Palace of Justice, indicated that his father, a day before the fact, reunited them in his home and informed to them that was being object of threats against its life, apparently, on the part of the Poster of Medellín. 95 people died in the taking the Palace of Justice the 5 of November of 1985, in the government of Belisario Betancur. "the magistrates of the Court who were that day studying the exequibilidad or not of the treaty of extradition and the laws that governs them were threatened previously by the Poster of Medellín and in the case of my father like ponente magistrate its position era of consitutionality or total exequibilidad", commented Gaona.
::This doesn't mean that they are necessarily right. As sons of two of the victims, they may be grasping at any and all straws in order to find the still non-existant closure their sanity demands, but it does make things far less simple, to say the least. Juancarlos2004 03:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting what the latest truth commision will find. Go ahead and add this to the wikipage, if you like.  I wish I could contact Ann and ask her why she changed her mind.Travb 03:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another Babelfish Translation

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/proy_2005/proy_palacio/home/index.html
** In Palace of Justice siege on Sun Jul 16 21:14:22 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Palace of Justice siege on Mon Jul 17 16:06:23 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Palace of Justice siege on Thu Jul 27 00:53:11 2006, 404 Not Found
----maru   (talk)  contribs 04:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/proy_2005/proy_palacio/home/ARTICULO-WEB-INTERNA_SECCION_PROY_2005-2603525.html
** In Palace of Justice siege on Sun Jul 16 21:14:23 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Palace of Justice siege on Mon Jul 17 16:06:25 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Palace of Justice siege on Thu Jul 27 00:53:13 2006, 404 Not Found
----maru   (talk)  contribs 04:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://semana.terra.com.co/wf_InfoArticuloArchivado.aspx?IdArt=93555
** In Palace of Justice siege on Sun Jul 16 21:14:17 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Palace of Justice siege on Mon Jul 17 16:06:25 2006, 404 Not Found
** In Palace of Justice siege on Thu Jul 27 00:53:13 2006, 404 Not Found
----maru   (talk)  contribs 04:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: One section of this article claims there are 25 justices, another 24.  A quick search on the web suggests 23, but that is a current number and may not be applicable to this time period.  This needs to be fixed. Hue White 15:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency 

message: Following an AfD discussion it was agreed to merge Alfonso Plazas Vega Conspiracy into this article. I'm not sure how to go about this; the other article was a POV fork of this one, created by a single-purpose sock-puppeteer who has since been indefinitely blocked. Most material in that article was copypasted from this one; what remains is highly partisan accusations of conspiracy. Does anyone fancy attempting to carry this out? RolandR (talk) 21:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

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thread_title: File:Palace in flames.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: I think we should provide a 'background' section before the section titled 'The siege'.  It is important to say what motivated the M-19 to plan the siege, and provide a neutral point of view of the different interpretations of their background.  For instance, the siege happened on 6 november 1985 for a reason:  On that day the Supreme Court would approve the Extradition Treaty.  This information is relevant for the article, unless it was just a coincidence, in which case we should back that up with reliable references.--Forich (talk) 19:05, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: According to a video declaration of former M-19 member Gustavo Petro, the mastermind behind the planning of the military siege of the colombian Palace of Justice was Luis Otero.  Nonetheless, Petro also says that Álvaro Fayad was the one who pulled the trigger, taking the political responsability.--Forich (talk) 16:40, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Consejo Superior de la Judicatura (2005, pp. 53-93), Libro Blanco - 20 años del Holocausto del Palacio de Justicia, contains a detailed account of the background of the siege.--Forich (talk) 16:36, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Spanish Wikipedia has a complete section about the background of the siege.--Forich (talk) 12:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background 

message: I want to bring to your attention that Ana Carrigan's book, which is currently cited as much as 10 times in the entry, has been named a 'conspiracy theory' by this reliable source:  Hudson, R. (1995). "Colombia's palace of justice tragedy revisited: A critique of the conspiracy theory". Terrorism and Political Violence, Vol. 7, No. 2, pp. 93-142.  The abstract of Hudson's scholar study of the book states that he questions "her unsubstantiated claim that the Colombian government and military, in collaboration with the US Embassy in Bogotá and the US Department of State, covered up the massacre by scripting an ‘official story’, which labeled the hostage‐taking operation by the 19th of April Movement (M‐19) an act of narco‐terrorism sponsored by the Medellín Cartel'.  If this is true, and we will have to read carefully the arguments of Hudson, then a lot of what is said in the entry is potentially Point of View (POV).  --Forich (talk) 01:32, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critique of one of the sources used in the article 

message: I believe it is relevant to mention the layout of the Palace of Justice.  It originally had four floors.  It is worth mention in which floor did the Magistrados stay, where was the cafeteria, and why it is relevant to mention the cellar and the fourth floor.  Since this description is big enough, I'll consider adding a new section for it. Any thoughts on that?--Forich (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll begin to sketch the 4th floor layout here: The fourth floor had the Sala Plena at its southeast corner.--Forich (talk) 01:26, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Building layout 

message: There is no currently no picture of the Palace of Justice in those two days.  We should add one.  If no one volunteers to do it, I will give it a try. --Forich (talk) 03:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: How about this picture?--Forich (talk) 00:08, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main picture 

message: This video is a compilation of the coverage made by colombian news stations of the siege.--Forich (talk) 03:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a longer one, part 1 of 5.--Forich (talk) 03:59, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video of news coverage 

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message: i know this may seem like something minor (mainly because it is), but i think, describing this event as a siege is a mistake considering the situation
there was no standoff, no atrtion, as soon as the goverment heard of this they began an attack, and thats what makes this event so important in the history of the country, the response of the military was excesive and if there was even the sligthest attemp at negotiation maybe it wouldnt have turned into such a disaster, but it did exactly because of that, and i would wish to request it to chang to something like the taking of the palace of justice, since thats what its called in spanish ArthurJFlamel (talk) 01:28, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  request to change name