Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Archive Dec 2006

message: The Editor's Forum has been designed on User:Ed/Sandbox. Should it become an EA program now?--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 04:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Patience is a virtue. You should attempt to establish consensus before the Coffee Lounge can become an Esperanza program. In addition, given how unpopular the Coffee Longue was, you will probably be asked to explain the differences between the Editor Forum and Coffee Lounge. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 15:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just so that everyone knows, the proposal for this is on the proposal page, where there are currently 6 support votes, and not a single object. If anybody opposes this, or has any ideas to improve it, please voice your opinion on the proposals page and/or User:Ed/Sandbox. As it is, it appears that we have a consensus. Also, the differences are pointed out on both pages.  Shardsofmetal  20:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editors' Forum 

message: I have made a survey. Please participate in it, but be prepared; it is VERY long.  WikieZach| talk 05:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took it already. I've been watching the Charter discussions so much that I just quickly took the survey!--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 05:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took it. Wasn't very long in my opinion. On one question I just took a guess; I'm still learning about Esperanza's charter. Heh heh, sorry. That survey was written pretty well. Kyo cat¿Qué tal?♥meow! 06:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't finish it, but I get the general idea... I think...--SUIT 06:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you go back (on the same computer) I think you can finish the ones you forgot to or couldn't do. WikieZach| talk 14:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took the survey, it wasnt that long but was well written - • The Giant Puffin • 14:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Sorry to those whose proposals I had to cut (it limits the amount of words I can write) WikieZach| talk 14:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took the survey. I hope my feedback is useful. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 15:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charter Survey 

message: There are many proposal to change the charter floating around Esperanza right now. Let's talk about all of them in an Esperanza IRC charter "debate". I believe a good time would be exactly one week from today. In US Eastern Time, 5:30pm, next week, on Friday. What do ya'll think? WikieZach| talk 22:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh-huh. And for those ordinary mortals who don't have IRC? Moreschi 22:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are tons of free IRC clients. There's even one built in to Mozilla Firefox. Canadian-Bacon   t c 22:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I use Internet Explorer, which sucks becuse I have no way to get to IRC. I have never been on it in my life.--Chili 22:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following are two sites from a game I play that helped me get IRC. Just ignore step 5. Remember, once clicking "connect to server", type in #wikipedia-esperanza. The following are two sites, the second is the source, the actual downloading site: ; WikieZach| talk 00:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I will most likely not be able to attend (if it does happen, that is). I will try, though. Cheers! --May the Force be with you!  Shreshth91 06:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bouncing ideas off each other on IRC is a great idea, but since not all of Esperanzians will be able to be there, anything that gets agreed upon should be brought back here or to one of the other IRC talk pages, so that all can decide on it.  Hope it goes well! -- Natalya 14:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Does everyone have to attend? I can't, regrettably. Kyo cat¿Qué tal?•meow! 23:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. The whole point is that on wikipedia, responses are slow, on IRC it goes much faster, more like a conversation. If you can't come, then maybe you can come to another one (we are bound to do more than one). In the case you can't make it to any, we will post our resolutions here to discuss further. WikieZach| talk 23:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, thanks. Kyo cat¿Qué tal?♥meow! 23:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please make sure to post a summary of what was discussed for those who can't participate, OK? Thanks. --Kyoko 00:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. WikieZach| talk 03:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What about thos of us for whom 5;30pm Eastern Time is some ungodly hour in the early morning, and we work the next day... Philc TECI 13:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can always move the time around. This is not the permanet time. WikieZach| talk 14:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, its ok, Its jus, whenver you have it its bound to be difficult for a majority of people to take part. Unlike the slow moving wiki discussions where if you are gone for 5 hours, you can catch up quite easily. I just dont kno if it'll work, as an accurate representation of the group. Philc TECI 18:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to join in the discussion, but what is IRC, and how do I get there (using FireFox)? | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 01:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can use ChatZilla with Firefox.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  01:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LIVE IRC CHARTER DEBATE 

message: Certain Esperanzans may experience a drop in the number of edits. This is not a bug; it is because of the recent deletion of some pages during the overhaul. I myself have lost some 1000 edits :'-(  --May the Force be with you!  Shreshth91 11:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never thought about that - wierd!  -- Natalya 13:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about users like me, who only have about 1000 edits!? Does everyone know about this? WikieZach| talk 14:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t think anyone does. I’ve myself been worrying about it for a few days after the coffee lounge and the userpage awards were deleted, before I actually got around to check my editcount. I was expecting a drop somewhere in the range of 300 edits, but ended up losing 1000. *waah* :’-( --May the Force be with you!  Shreshth91 14:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: O yeah, I never thought of that! - • The Giant Puffin • 14:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Checked it, seems normal. Thanks for the notice! WikieZach| talk 14:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: That would explain why my edits for November surpassed my October edits just two weeks in.  And why I still haven't reached 3000.  Oh well, back to work.  -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 19:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup...Kyo cat¿Qué tal?♥meow! 19:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol, guys, get over the editcountitis. Hey, if you really want to mess up your editcounts, do some Newpage patrol:) Moreschi 19:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My edit count does not seem to have been affected. Perhaps this is an indication to increase my participation in Esperanza? --J.L.W.S. The Special One 07:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Same here. I'll need to start participating more actively - I don't care if those edits are deleted in the end. –-  kungming·2 (Talk) 07:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  @ Moreschi: amen to that! - Che Nuevara 21:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait, you can die from checking your edits too much? ;-) | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 10:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I lost about 50 or 60 edits through the deletion of the Coffee Lounge. Editcountitis can indeed be fatal, if you obsessively check your edit count to the detriment of eating, sleeping, and personal hygiene. --Kyoko 17:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editcount 

message: As you know, we have the upcoming IRC Charter debate this week. I would like to ask, on this same issue, if anyone would support a "Committee" to meet more often and then give a single proposal to Esperanza for a new charter. It should consist of all those who gave proposals. What do you think? --WikieZach| talk 22:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oi!  We're already discussing the governance in depth, I dunno if we should introduce this yet.  It's a good idea, I guess, but for now, I say we don't do so because of the confusion over our current status.  Incidentally, the debate if Friday, correct?  What's the time?  Thank ye kindly.  DoomsDay349 23:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is at 5:30pm Eastern United States Time and on the main esperanza IRC. More details to be posted later this week. The reason of a "committee" is the need to have one central proposal. About six proposals were given at the page I made. If we had just one of many merged together (using the popularity from results of my survey) it would be easier to talk about and debate. WikieZach| talk 23:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I would really like to have a Committee to discuss this. Discussion needs to be centralized. I will not be on it, though, since I can't do IRC.--Chili 23:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy.  Centralizing discussion is good, but please oh please don't appoint a committee! -- SCZenz 23:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Aye to that. I myself don't see the point of having so much bureaucracy. I think we can trust the main membership list to be able to get results... Titoxd(?!?) 23:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point. I agree.--Chili 00:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. Well, then the next IRC meeting will be very long. I understand what you are saying. WikieZach| talk 01:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Once a date and time are decided upon, it would be good to post it on the news page.  That way more people would participate.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  02:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I added a little more information to the news, and disambigated to the time zone.  I will await the survey results then.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  03:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to add a link to the IRC tutorial. Not all of us have used IRC yet. =( Ed ¿Cómo estás? 03:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The following are two sites from a game I play that helped me get IRC. Just ignore step 5. Remember, once clicking "connect to server", type in #wikipedia-esperanza. The following are two sites, the second is the source, the actual downloading site: ; WikieZach| talk 03:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How long will the discussion take? My concern is that I might miss the beginning of the meeting, because I have to come home from school. I can't use IRC on the school computers because the administrators wouldn't allow it anyway.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It starts at 5:30pm, EST. Most likely, it will go on for quite a while. If you miss the fist part, it's no problem. There are bound to more more IRC chats soon, the next most likely will be on the weekend. WikieZach| talk 02:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please convert that to Singapore time? If the time is right, I would be interested. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 02:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What ever the time is in Singapore right now as this message is posted, subtract four hours.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Suggestion: We keep the discussion going for 24 hours. Most Esperanzians edit at different times of the day, so we'll just carry on the conversations from one person to the next.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 03:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just updated my proposal - I'll be away this weekend, so I won't be able to jump on IRC, but I'm looking forward to seeing what issues get brought up (along with the reasoning behind those issues).  I'd love it if the IRC discussion focused on highlighting problems and providing short "discussion seeds" to be brought here and expanded on by everyone else. Cheers! Quack 688 13:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Note that it is a discussion, not debate. WikieZach| talk 22:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there so much of a difference? DoomsDay349 23:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Upcoming IRC Charter debate, etc. 

message: Hello all! Of (sadly) only 21 people taking the poll and some missing some questions, here are the un-edited results: 
1. Should the current charter expire eventually? 
  YES 52.4% (11 votes)
 NO  47.6% (10 votes)
 
2. How much should be required to scrap the current charter and write a new one? 
 
 TWO-THIRDS   47.6% (10 votes)
 ALMOST ALL   23.8% (5 votes)
 A MAJORITY   23.8% (5 votes)
 THREE-FIFTHS 4.8%  (1 vote)
 
3. Should the above proposal be approved? (Wikizach proposal)
 
 NO  42.1% (8 votes)
 YES 36.8% (7 votes)
   ? 21.1% (4 votes)
 
Kim Bruning Proposal 
4. Are you in favor of the above proposal?
  YES 47.4% (9 votes)
  NO  31.6% (6 votes)
  ?   21.1% (4 votes)
 
Roninbk's Proposal 
5. Do you approve of the above stated proposal? 
    
    ?  38.9% (7 votes)
  NO  33.3% (6 votes)
  YES 27.8% (5 votes)
Quack's proposal 
6. Do you approve of the above proposal? 
   YES 55.6% (10 votes)  
  NO  38.9% (7 votes)
  ?   5.6%  (1 vote)
Becuase of this, the Agenda for the IRC meeting will go one by one for each proposal; from most popular to least. WikieZach| talk 23:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great. Hope all goes well. Look forward to seeing the results.--Chili 02:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I await the final results, this is an important change - • The Giant Puffin • 18:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey Results and the Agenda for Friday's IRC meeting 

message: ARGH! I said (slightly paraphrased ;-) ) "Enough is enough, I've had it with this mfing bureaucracy in this mfing wikiproject". I followed that up by applying the KISS principle, and seeding a new wikipage. I was hoping that people would actually try to do some wiki editing on that page. A novel concept, I'm sure.
The apparent outcome?  "Kim Bruning's proposal has 47% approval". 
Does that count as Morisettian irony, or what?
Well, sorry. That's just not good enough.
;reccomendation
I strongly reccommend that Esperanza interpret their mandate to include teaching their members about the key concepts of ...:
* consensus
* wiki-editing
* encyclopedic writing
...and their application on wikipedia.  
This should be Esperanza's first priority, and Esperanza should pursue this goal with great urgency. No one should be a member of esperanza without at least promising to make the effort to learn these concepts.
Don't make this a priority because I say so; don't make it a priority because it's a good idea; but make it a priority because -well, it has to be said- how else can you even dare to claim that esperanza is "here to help with wikipedia"? 
Esperanza has some smart people helping out. I'm sure that Esperanza can easily meet these undemanding, simple, but fundamental goals :-) . I expect Esperanza to take the lead, to strive for excellence at all times, and to show others how it's done! 
Kim Bruning 16:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ARGH

message: Just on the offchance that someone will read this very soon, the IRC debate will be starting in just a few minutes, so please share your thoughts.  See WP:IRC to connect.  Best, Dar-Ape 22:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IRC debate 

message: Report for the First Session of the Charter Debate (there will be more throughout the next 20 hours)
----
*An agreement has been reached to keep some form of membership requirements
*Other than that, council issues are to be dealt with next
We recessed for an hour for dinner.
--Wikizach,
Clerk of the Session
WikieZach| talk 00:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charter Debate Reports 

message: Lets give our members who are not apart of the governing body to vote on more things. --Sir james paul 22:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The AC has very little power to vote and make decisions by itself.  As seen above, it has the power to determine consensus, not vote and decide themselves.  If you look through most of the subpages of Esperanza, you will also see that almost every thing is put up for discussion with the members.  (See the proposals page and some of the programs, like the Wikipedia:Esperanza/Collaboration of the Month.)  Also, the overhaul is open to discussion by all members and even non-members, so I do not really understand your point.  – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  00:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Members 

message: Wikipedia:Esperanza/Charter Proposal Voting WikieZach| talk 11:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voting Open 

message: I think it would be best if we look at this organization and re-evaluate ourselves. Have we improved? How can be better involved in the WikiCommunity? Have we accomplished our goals? How much longer must our reform take? (etc.) This is important now because of the new reforms Esperanza just went through. 
BTW, when is the next AC meeting?--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 00:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Should be soon, (I'm guessing), the elections are coming up in a few weeks. WikieZach| talk 00:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm...I'm not too sure about the elections or the AC meeting. Right now we haven't go a firm idea of what direction our governance is going to take, so it seems, to me at least, strange talking about elections when we're not even really sure as to what we'd be electing people to. Thε Halo Θ 14:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea, Ed.  Perhaps we should seek some external evaluation regarding this as well-- it seems like there should be an equivalent to WP:ER for an organization so non-members can easily offer us critique.  Dar-Ape 23:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good suggestion--SUIT 23:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with The Halo that we shouldn't be even thinking of electing anybody to anything without first better defining what, if any, form of governance Esperanza will have in the future. The bureaucracy and hierarchy of Esperanza (real or perceived) is a major criticism of the organisation, and we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we try to elect people in the midst of our efforts to clarify who we are and what we stand for. --Kyoko 00:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, I'm sorry, nothing personal was intended, I'm just saying that it would be very poor form to hold elections when we aren't even sure if there will be officials, or how many, or what their precise roles would be, and holding elections at this time would only confirm the allegations that Esperanza relies too much on having a bureaucracy. --Kyoko 00:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I agree, we should start with some new programs--SUIT 04:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Once the charter etc has been sorted out, I would like to see a programme dedicated to recognizing the great contributions of our editors, much like the Barnstar Brigade did, without seemingly diminishing the value of this recognition. Thε Halo Θ 13:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-evaluaton 

message: Personally, I think that Esperanza needs more programs to help the community in a better way. If you compare Esperanza before the overhauls with its current condition, we have lost around 1/2 of our programs! Now we're just a bunch of people trying to debate on what step to take next, with no overall effect on the wider community of Wikipedia. Our efforts to help the Esperanzian community fail to help the Wikipedian community. Remember the Esperanza is not a seperate community. It is imperative that we look outside the box, to see how our actions will affect the community, and work quickly so that we may acheive our goals much faster. --Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree, we should start with some new programs--SUIT 04:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Once the charter etc has been sorted out, I would like to see a programme dedicated to recognizing the great contributions of our editors, much like the Barnstar Brigade did, without seemingly diminishing the value of this recognition. Thε Halo Θ 13:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evaluation

message: Despite all of the heated discussion we have been going through, it is still important to watch out for all of our members. I would like to encourage all of you to leave a message for a leaving user (User:Moe Epsilon) .--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Banes, one of our Councillors, seems to have left as well. =( --Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Same as EWS23HighwayCello, apparently. But he might me on Wikibreak.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 03:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: EWS23?  Am I missing something here?  I don't see evidence of a departure or a wikibreak...  Dar-Ape 03:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that. It's HighwayCello. Check out his contribs.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 03:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  User Leaving 

message: I'd like to inform the Esperanza community that the admin coaching has been revamped. The Transhumanist and I have been making changes to the structure, but not the project concept (i.e. it is still called "admin coaching"), but the request list and volunteer lists have been separated into subpages. We hope that the project pages are now more user-friendly. Our eventual plan is to have the project more or less run itself, by having coaches contact students themselves, without going though a coordinator. This will eliminate the chances of the program stagnating while the coordinator goes on Wikibreak. However there is a very old backlog of requests that we are working through first, and should be cleared before the program can really "run itself". So, that's the plan. I realize that some of the AC members are on wikibreak, but if there's going to be a newsletter soon I can write an announcement. I know that some people think the project should be renamed; I don't agree, but a name change won't change the functionality aspects that we are now working on. Thanks, Fang Aili talk 20:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *applause* for all the hard work.  The next newsletter we have, that will certainly go in it.  -- Natalya 13:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, well done guys! Great job. Thε Halo Θ 15:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admin coaching program revamp 

message: How? -- Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia|wanna Talk? 05:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The guidelines are under intense overhaul, so my suggestion would be to wait a little while before asking again. Thanks for your interest, though!--CJ King 05:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You just need over 150 edits, and be here at least two weeks in order to join :) [wossi] 22:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How do I join Esperanza? 

message: Are we holding an election or not? WikieZach| talk 23:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If everything has been solved, and the governance structure has been agreed on, then I dont see why not - • The Giant Puffin • 11:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Esperanza/December 2006 elections WikieZach| talk 13:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Governance structure has not been agreed on by any measure. This does not feel right. Moreschi 13:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well then there is still need of an amendment to the charter, since on the 31st their terms will be expired; also the governance talk may go on for at least two more months--WikieZach| talk 13:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would propose doing the same thing as what is being done with Concordia: allowing the current AC members to remain in office until the governance issue reaches a conclusion. I do have to say that the Charter Proposal Voting page has a stated deadline of December 19, 2006, so I don't see where the "at least two more months" is coming from. --Kyoko 15:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Send a report to Werdna.It seems like the AC has been less active in EA discussions as they used to. Are they all on Wikibreak? Even then, I agree with Kyoko about keeping the AC in office until we have decided on a course of action. In addition, I think it might be a good idea if we could merge with Concordia. (just a thought...)--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 16:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I have put an illness template up on my userpage, but I'l try to keep up as much as I can :P Anyway, we needn't rush. Some of the time December elections are in January, etc, so it doesn't matter (that is, if the governance remains the same) if the elections are late. It has happened in the past. Also, if it is best for Esperanza to keep the current governance structure whie it sorts out that part of its charter, I would think that would be the best course of action to take. Thε Halo Θ 23:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The advisory council is generally just feeling burnt out.  I agree with Halo though, we should be sure we know what kind of governance we would be voting for before we hold any elections.  It makes sense to work that out first.  Since the what we're doing now involves all of Esperanza and doesn't really hinge on the advisory council, it doesn't seem like it would be a problem to just wait for elections.  And if people feel like it's somehow bad to leave people on the council past their term, we could leave a time with no council.  But, it doesn't seem like it will matter much either way. -- Natalya 20:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, now would be the perfect time to see how Esperanza can cope without leadership... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 07:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are we or not? 

message: My apologies, as I have been busy editing and RC patrolling for a few months. Just wondering, why were programs such as the Barnstar Brigade deleted? Were they all deemed inappropriate while I was away working? I dunno...but Esperanza is not bringing a lot of "esperanza" my way with these overhauls and no clarity nor statements as to why these cuts have been made. I was a bit disappointed by lack of response to this question here as well . Back to work for me... -Kukini 02:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul. The discussions are quite inactive now, but are kept for historical reference.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK..well, happy "overhauling"...I have moved on. Kukini 21:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barnstar Brigade? 

message: If you check out the history of Wikipedia:Esperanza/M, you can see that a few people have left Esperanza in protest to several things. How are we going to fix this? We need to find a solution fast!--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Members Leaving 

message: Here are the results to be used in the creation of the Charter;
Should we keep the Advisory council in its current structure with 7 members?
4-7; NO
Should the Council's powers be limited to housekeeping jobs and declaring consensus?
3-3-1; Consensus Not Reached
Should we coutinue to have an Administrator General?
6-0; YES
In the case we keep an AdminGen, should the person be elected out of the council or by the people directly?
8-0; By Direct-Vote
Should there be some form of requirements to join our membership?
1-8; NO
In the case a council member or the Admin.Gen. does something wrong (to be determined in detail if this is passed) then should there be a procedure in place to remove them?
6-2; YES
Do you agree with the idea to have an "expanded legislature" that would consist of a ten-member body to make sure the council is doing it's job?
2-8; NO
Should regular members be allowed to 'submit' stories for the EP Newsletter to be edited by the council?
2-5-0; YES, IF EDITED BY COUNCIL
Should we try to make Esperanza less reliant on formal procedures, official structures and parliamentary-style voting?
6-0-1; YES
Should procedures be put in place to suspend or remove disruptive members from Esperanza?
1-4; NO
Should we abolish the idea of membership entirely?
6-2-1; YES
The Above are the results; within 15 days, I will sumbit a new charter for review using the above results and other commentary--WikieZach| talk 00:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first question (about keeping the AC) resulted in 4-7, majority voting NO. This result, however, does not give clear consensus on this issue. There is a major dissent against the majority. I think that this particular issue should be more discussed.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 01:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The vote's result was to reject keeping the current structure of the AC. I suggest that more discussion be put into this immediately to reach consensus on how the AC will still function, or if it will function at all. Diez2 13:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where was this poll taken? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 07:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Results 

message: I am ready to become part of the Council, how do I run? I know I'm new, but I would love to run. Laleenatalk to me contributions to Wikipedia 13:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We are currently reviewing the charter, elections (may) commence in a few weeks, later than usuall. WikieZach| talk 21:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It's generally a bad idea to give power to anyone who actually wants it O:-) Kim Bruning 15:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am ready to become part of the Council, how do I run? 

message: I would now like to make a proposal. Let's have elections in which the people running use their thoughts for a new Charter as part of their statement. With such an election, the council would be like a refferendum on a charter. WikieZach| talk 19:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And if the council decides that a council is not needed???--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then they will be disolved. WikieZach| talk 13:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Election Proposal 

message: Hi, I'm JDitto, and I'm wondering if I can join this group. I'm a Christian wikipedian looking for ways to be nice to others so when I found this page it seems to be just the right thing to join. What are the requirements? --JDitto 19:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure if it's still a rule, but you're supposed to have than 150 edits or higher, or something--SUIT 19:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That and being on Wikipedia for a least two weeks aswell, I think.  Crazy Sussex Lad  21:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Have a look Here  Crazy Sussex Lad  13:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: <lol> So I don't need to have a certain number of edits? I'm not worried about how long I've been here, because I know I've been here >3 mths...--JDitto 03:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I'm not an esperanzan, but perhaps Esperanza will see the wisdom of welcoming you anyway? :-) Kim Bruning 15:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yo, can I join? 

message: I would like to ask all of you fellow wikipedians to go around giving smiles to people because it promotes wikilove.
* The way I find people to smile at is going on other peoples talk pages and smiling at the people there. You can really smile to a lot of people this way. Another way is to  go to wikiprojects and smile to the members. Another way of course is to smile to those who leave comments on your talk page. God bless.--§Sir James Paul<<--wikiholic§ 22:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, now that is a useful template for this very special day. Arria Belli/Marialadouce | parlami 13:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Be careful with 'frown' Some users would consider it a personal attack. It is funny though. Geo. 19:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  <grin> But seriously, try this innovative "act like a human being and speak with a human voice" thing. I know, it's all very new fangled for all of us traditional neanderthals, but who knows, maybe "oog smile, oog frown, oog CSD" is becoming a bit old? :-)  Kim Bruning 22:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  <wicked grin> Look at me! I'm a Very Important Person. Therefore, my opinions are important, and must be widely broadcast, for the sake of the community. However, I'm far too important to write individual "You suck" letters to everyone on my enemies list. So I'll just hire a secretary bot, to copy-paste appropriate templates at random times. That's much better than bashing people over a head with a neanderthal club, right? Right? Quack the Clueless 16:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

text: (cough) Okay, I'll stop now. That's enough fun for today, at least. :-p Quack 688 16:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smiles 

message: Just a quick reminder that this page was pretty big a month or so ago: Wikipedia:Esperanza/New_charter. I've sliced down my governance section based on the last vote, I'm leaning more towards individual program coordinators. If someone else wants to update the proposal they put there, or make up a brand new one, go for it. I don't really see the point of starting another new page about all this when we can just Wiki-edit those ones.
Oh, and Merry Christmas, y'all! Quack 688 01:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should soon have a better idea of what to have in a charter per the recent poll. WikieZach| talk 02:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or not ;-) (see above) Kim Bruning 03:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Will we ever reach a concensus on this? - • The Giant Puffin • 14:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, but we might reach a consensus, if people actually wanted to talk about what's really going on :-) Kim Bruning 15:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been endless talks in several different places. None of them seem to be getting anywhere - • The Giant Puffin • 19:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On Wikipedia, I believe that, in the event that there is no consensus over what format something should take, it is simply scrapped. Dump the charter and see what happens. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We would still need some form of "document". Perhaps a simple Mission Statement would do?--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 22:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yeah, righ - what? Why do you need a document? Why can you simply write what you're for on the front page like everyone else? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you referring to the Introduction on the main page? If so, then we probably should just improve on that paragraph and scrap the Charter, as you proposed.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 22:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's what I mean. Set out your stall immediately, so to speak. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charter proposals 

message: As a new comer to esperanza I thought I'd stop by and give others a chance to welcome me. ;-)  
Actually, I wanted to make a comment which I think will be encouraging to everyone here, not only in this group but in all of Wikipedia.   
I spent a lot of time over at Uncyclopediaand finally lost much of my enthusiasm for what I thought would be a fun place to do some editing and contributing.  It's supposed to be a fun place, but I've been left with the impression that most of the administrators there are a very cliquish who seem to get some kind of enjoyment out of making outsiders feel unwelcome.  On the other hand, I've found a lot more support and welcome here at Wikipedia even though I have run into some other users who I've not shared the same views, I still feel much more welcomed and at home even without the Esperanza group.  I hope I can make a positive contribution to your efforts, even though my time is limited and my visits may be sporadic.  --JAXHERE</span> | Talk 02:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is great to hear! It's nice to know the Wikipedia community is very welcoming to other users.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jolly good!  I'm glad to hear this as well.  Dar-Ape 03:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome! Good to have you with us. Thanks for the nice comment about us! Best wishes, Jam01 08:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice to have you wish us!  -- Natalya 16:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is good to hear that! You are always welcome here!! Hope you enjoy being a Wikipedian and Esperazian!!! Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welcome to Esperanza 

message: Most of the community is gone. Isn't Esperanza supposed to promote community? We deleted things like Barnster Brigade, which raises morale. The community is almost, if not totally gone. We said, in order to stay and not me MFD'd again, we would have to change some things. Well, we did, and now we have the choice between Esperanza but no community aspect, or Esperanza w/ community and be deleted. Isn't there anything in between? TeckWizTalkContribs@ 02:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm beginning to think that Esperanza is collapsing as well. The MfD literally put the organization into chaos! Maybe we can delete all Esperanza pages and start from scratch!--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't we want to save them for historical purposes?  Even if we do start over, it may be good to keep records of some ideas that didn't work so we avoid making those mistakes again.  In the words of George Santayana, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Dar-Ape 04:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: This overhaul has deleted a lot of the community in Wikipedia. But, if people remain, we can still rebuild Esperanza to effectively promote and preserve the community. Theres no point just giving up, that wont solve anything. With some persistance and determination we can get Esperanza back to its former glory and get it to the point so they cant delete it - • The Giant Puffin • 09:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What, like Concordia? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's how it looks to me.  Yeah, Esperanza has definitly lost a lot of its community feel.  And yeah, it kind of sucks.  What Wikipedia needs (or will at least accept) has changed, but that doesn't mean we have to give up.  True, we've lost a lot of programs that many people considered beneficial.  Unfortunately, there's not much we can do about those.  What we can do, however, is take what we still have, and make it great.  And we still have some great programs!  The Collaboration of the Month really does a lot of good for the articles, the Tutorial Drive helps lots of users, the To-Do List lets us help anyone who needs a hand with something, and the Alerts Page, well, there's really nothing to say about how good it is.  And even though many of the programs are gone, it doesn't mean that each individual person can't still convey the feeling of Esperanza's community.  So lets take what we have and do what we can.  -- Natalya 15:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: So.... we can all complain about it, or we can do something about it!  Optimism is ever so much better than looking at the bad side of everything. -- Natalya 01:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In regards to ECOTM, I know that there has been very little done, but the problem was that it was started just prior to the MFD, for I had had a bit of foresight (not bragging, only saying) and was trying to reform Esperanza like two days before MFD.  The chaos of that and then the overhaul put it on hold, and then I took a long break.  Hopefully we can have it back into full swing soon.  DoomsDay349 01:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: With all of our problems in mind: "When someone gives you lemons, make--lemonade! When someone gives you salt, make--margherita!" =P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ed (talk • contribs) 03:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I logged in just to check my messages, and it's turned into 2+ hours on Wikipedia! And this being a Friday night, too. Sigh... Regarding the lack of community, I would suggest that people read and contribute towards articles that interest them, or even articles that don't, and when they encounter a user who is having difficulties or a user who is making very good contributions, help that person or offer him/her your thanks. This approach handles the goals of making Esperanza less inward-looking, helping new users, and building community. --Kyoko 06:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Community 

message: Esperanza is currently being considered for deletion at Miscellany for Deletion; I invite all Esperanzians and non-Esperanzians to visit the debate page and give their opinion, in order for us to retrieve a true consensus.
Cheers and regards,Anthonycfc 13:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you not notice the above two pages of text discussing the MfD? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 13:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I did, but thanks for pointing it out anyway! Anthonycfc 15:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So why'd you put another notice up? Ed already alerted everyone. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I didn't alert anyone! Well, I did start a conversation about the MfD on IRC...--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 15:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Woopsie, it was actually PTO. Sorry about that. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is going to end badly, I can see it - • The Giant Puffin • 13:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza|MfD]] Nomination 

message: Does anyone know what will become of the Admin Coaching? I heard from someone that it will be moved, but to where? Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admin Coaching 

message: Consensus at the MFD appears to be for Esperanza's deletion. What should the aftermath be?
For starters, we have to decide what will happen to the programs. While they will probably be deleted with Esperanza, some of them, such as the Stress Alerts and Admin Coaching, deserve to be kept.
We also have to consider how Esperanza will be deleted. Should all Esperanza pages be simply deleted? Deleted and salted? The MessedRocker solution (which entails redirecting all subpages to the main page, placing an  tag on the main page, and protecting all pages) will not affect our edit counts.
Some have suggested converting Esperanza's front page into an essay about its ideals, the membership list into a list of people who support the ideals, and "de-Esperanzing" our programs (I think this is an excellent idea). Perhaps a fork - ironically, the situation Esperanza was created to avoid - might be neccesary. Should either occur, I pledge to continue my support to Esperanza. 
--J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, that discussion is what the MfD's for... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to have a chat with User:The Transhumanist. He might like some of the better tutorials in the Tutorial Drive for his excellent virtual classroom. Moreschi  Deletion! 14:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about the calander, will that be kept? Or will it's name be changed? | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 14:35, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dec920 is correct, be sure to express your feelings on this issues at the MfD, because that is where the decisions will be made.  As for programs that may be deleted but seem to have validity to exist, perhaps deletion review is best, since the MfD is pretty all-encompassing. -- Natalya 14:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath?