Talk:Cape Verdean Creole

message: A second myth about the Creole, largely spread, is that “the Barlavento Creoles are closer to Portuguese”. Also, for the sake of the truth, I intend to explain why those statements have no ground.
First, I don’t know any “study” that “proves that the Barlavento Creoles are closer to Portuguese”. By the contrary, every work I had the chance to read show that all varieties of Cape Verdean Creole have evolved from the same base.
Some people forget that the contribution of the Portuguese language in Creole is the XV century Portuguese and not contemporary Portuguese.
At last, some people when trying to seek similarities between Barlavento Creoles and Portuguese, take as reference European Portuguese, and forget that certain characteristics of European Portuguese have started to appear in the XVII century, i.e., after the beginning of the formation of Creole.
If so, where does this myth come from?
1 – The unstressed vowels [i] and [u] frequently disappear in Barlavento Creoles. This absence of sound can easily be confused with the [ɨ] vowel of contemporary European Portuguese, which is pronounced nearly voiceless (êss’ [es] “this” can be confused with Portuguese esse [ˈesɨ], fôm’ [fom] “hunger” can be confused with Portuguese fome [ˈfɔmɨ]). Nevertheless, that absence of sound has no relation with the vowel written “e” in Portuguese (look Myth #3).
2 – While in Sotavento Creoles the sound [v] of Portuguese is almost totally represented by [b] (bendê “to sell”, from Portuguese vender), in Barlavento it is partially represented by [v] (vendê). It is an ultracorrection phenomenon, i.e. e., the speakers of Creole when confronted with Portuguese forms with [v], have “corrected” the Creole forms replacing [b] by [v]. The proof of this phenomenon is the existence of words in which the [b] has been replaced by [v], even when in Portuguese never existed [v]! (ex.: gavá “to praise” in Santo Antão, from Portuguese gabar)
3 – Speaking in Santo Antão, the Creole from Santo Antão (and consequently, the Creole form São Vicente) has always been more permeable to ultracorrections. That can be verified through the replacement of Creole words by other words imported from Portuguese. For instance, dzê and falá have replaced flâ and papiâ (“to tell” and “to speak”, respectively).
4 – Many people identify the Barlavento Creoles with the São Vicente Creole. They are not aware that there are little differences between all Barlavento Creoles, and that the Santo Antão Creole and São Vicente Creole possess unique characteristics that set them apart from the other Creoles. One of these characteristics is something I mentioned before, that is the manner how the implosive [s] and [z] sounds are pronounced, that in fact are pronounced like in European Portuguese, but differently from the other Creoles, and most of all, differently from how it was pronounced in XV century Portuguese!
5 – It is frequent the speakers with Portuguese education to put in Portuguese words when speaking Creole. It is a decreolization phenomenon, but that happens in all Creoles, there is no proof that that phenomenon is stronger in Barlavento Creoles.
After all this, if all the Creoles descend from a common base that has appeared in the XV century, how is it possible the Barlavento Creoles to be closer to nowadays European Portuguese? That statement has no foundation. The combination of all the phenomena cited above can be interpreted as Portuguese intromission in Creole, i.e., interference from a foreign language. However, intromission does not mean to be closer. In the English Language there are a lot of words of French origin, but this does not mean that English is closer to French!
C. A. Duarte
===Reply===
*The article still has problems. it presents all Cape verdean creoles has one language. It is one view, but often there is the view that these are different creole languages. If you put together all cape verdean creoles you can also group other Portuguese creoles that share similarities.
*There is a study stating that São Vicente Creole, may not be a Creole, but a semi-creole, something similar to what happened in Asia. That information disappeared from wikipedia, just like the statement that these creoles may not be a single language but a group of languages. and that is an academic study done by an academic from São Vicente in a Portuguese university. But that info and link was lost somewhere.
This article needs to be reviewed by someone who understands about the subject and has more sources. --Pedro (talk) 09:19, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Pedro, although with little time, I couldn't help myself from replying: what “academic study”? Ten Islands (talk) 09:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you had been paying attention, you'd know that's a pointless question. According to Pedro that study was in the article, but now the link is gone and Pedro cannot find it again. So if you want an answer, plough through the page history.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Myth # 2: the Barlavento Creoles are closer to Portuguese

message: *The article still has problems. it presents all Cape verdean creoles has one language. It is one view, but often there is the view that these are different creole languages. If you put together all cape verdean creoles you can also group other Portuguese creoles that share similarities.
*There is a study stating that São Vicente Creole, may not be a Creole, but a semi-creole, something similar to what happened in Asia. That information disappeared from wikipedia, just like the statement that these creoles may not be a single language but a group of languages. and that is an academic study done by an academic from São Vicente in a Portuguese university. But that info and link was lost somewhere.
This article needs to be reviewed by someone who understands about the subject and has more sources. --Pedro (talk) 09:19, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Pedro, although with little time, I couldn't help myself from replying: what “academic study”? Ten Islands (talk) 09:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you had been paying attention, you'd know that's a pointless question. According to Pedro that study was in the article, but now the link is gone and Pedro cannot find it again. So if you want an answer, plough through the page history.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: First, there is a big confusion here. People that usually claim the statement above are confusing the spelling with the pronunciation. What they probably intend to say is that “the sound [u] of European Portuguese (frequently written “o” when it is not stressed) is pronounced [ɨ] (written “e” in European Portuguese)”.
Second, that is a wrong interpretation. The sound [ɨ] (like the “e” in the Portuguese word levar in European pronunciation) does not exist in Creole. The word dôç’ (from Portuguese doce) in Barlavento Creoles (BVC) is pronounced [dos] (one syllable); the word cabêl’ (from Portuguese cabelo) is pronounced [kɐˈbel] (two syllables).
Third, what really disappears in BVC are the unstressed sounds [i] and [u], and not the letters “e” and “o”:
:1 – In Portuguese (PT) words that possessed unstressed [i] and [u], those sounds disappear in BVC:PT: braço, de, pele, pisado, sinal, arrumar;BVC: bróç’, d’, pêl’, p’sód’, s’nál, r’má;Not to forget is that the final “e” was pronounced in the XV century like [i] (like it is still pronounced in Brazil).
:2 – Portuguese words that possessed unstressed [e] and [o] are generally represented by [e] and [o] in BVC:PT: bocado, correr, gemada, meter, morada, pesado;BVC: bocód’, corrê, gemáda, metê, moráda, pesód’;
:3 – The cases in which the sounds [e] and [o] from PT disappear in BVC are cases in which those sounds were modified to [i] and [u] in all Creoles: PT: comadre, comer, cozinha, deixar, menino, veludo;BVC: c’mádr’, c’mê, c’zínha, d’xá, m’nín’, v’lúd’;A simple comparison with Sotavento Creoles (SVC) corroborates it:SVC: cumádri, cumê, cuzínha, dixâ, minínu, vilúdu;
If so, where does this myth come from? Many BVC speakers, when speaking Portuguese, don’t pronounce the unstressed sounds [i], [ɨ], and [u]. After that, they make an inverse analogy: they identify the absence of sound in BVC with the spelling “e” in PT. That’s why it is frequent, in BVC writing, to people use the letter “e” to avoid the clash between consonants and/or to avoid words ending by consonant:PT: cachorro, crioulo, esse, amolgado, inocente, saudade:BVC: catchorre, criole, esse, molgode, nocente, sodade;
Another proof of this big confusion is the inconsistency in spelling by some: we can easily find spelled esse or criole as we can find spelled ess or criol. Sometimes we can even find written the letter “e” in cases which has never existed a vowel in PT (!):beloque [blok] (from PT bloco), adevogode [ɐdvoˈɡɔd] (from PT advogado).
C. A. Duarte
*Duarte, edite o artigo! estou realmente impressionado com o seu texto, a página de discussão está mais completa que o próprio artigo. Edite o artigo livremente e inclua tudo o que disse aqui, a wikipedia agradece. -Pedro 14:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Assino por baixo! Waldir 22:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, be patient! Changes are coming! TenIslands 11:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Myth # 3: in Barlavento Creoles the “o” is “e”

message: I have made some significant changes as it has been suggested in this discussion. The article is not finished, but I humbly believe that the essential is there. TenIslands 11:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [ you did a great job]! Waldir 23:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: I've tried to move this page to "Cape Verdean Creole", but I couldn't. How can this be done? TenIslands 11:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The other page had to be deleted first. I tagged it with , as soon as it is deleted, the moving can be made. Waldir 23:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, as it can be seen, I've moved the page. Waldir 19:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: Hi. I noticed that the vowel table includes not only oral and nasal versions for /e/ and /o/, but also for /ɛ/ and /ɔ/. Are these nasals really four distinct phonemes, or are they perhaps allophonic or dialectal variants? Regards. FilipeS 17:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the table of the description of the vowels in Cape Verdean Creole phonology (in Portuguese). There are minimal pairs that opose /e/ to /ẽ/, /o/ to /õ/, /e/ to /ɛ/, /o/ to /ɔ/, /ɛ/ to /ɛ̃/ and /ɔ/ to /ɔ̃/. So, it would be logical to assume that /ẽ/ and /ɛ̃/ are different phonemes, and /õ/ and /ɔ̃/ are also different phonemes. I haven't found minimal pairs for /ẽ/ and /ɛ̃/ or for /õ/ and /ɔ̃/ (in my 120 seconds research... ) but all phonetic studies about Cape Verdean Creole assume that they are different phonemes. TenIslands 19:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nasal open-mid vowels 

message: I didn’t understand why Waldir said that “it’s about to become an official language” was false. Besides the same sentence being present also in the Portuguese and French versions, the same fact is largely documented.About the number of native speakers, I trusted the figures presented by Ethnologue. I could even have said that th Cape Verdean Creole is the third Creole with the largest number of speakers (after the Haitian Creole and the Jamaican Creole), but the linguists do not agree if all the French Creoles in the Lesser Antilles are variations of one language or separated languages.About the “oldest Creole”, I figured out that since the Portuguese Overseas Empire was the first, the Cape Verdean Creole was the first to appear. But a citation would be nice!TenIslands 23:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for the very late reply. The sentence I removed was: "(...)it is the Portuguese based Creole with the greatest number of native speakers, and it one of the few Creoles to become an official language." The way it was written didn't express a future tense, but a present one (very poorly, actually, since it missed the verb -- or had an extra pronoun), which is, as you know, indeed false. The way you put it (“it’s about to become an official language”) is perfectly ok for me to stay in the article. Waldir 18:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Official language

message: cv_ilidio@yahoo.com:  
Several weeks had passed on the date of the consensus on this matter (sees the discussions concerning ALUPEC) and Mr TENISLANDS did not align this part to the consensus. Therefore, I decided  to conform it. I hope that Mr TENISLANDS will make the adaptations in the other languages. 
 
cv_ilidio@yahoo.com, in the capital of Cape Verde, on November 22th, 2007, at 13:02 GMT  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.8.4.2 (talk) 18:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The writing system (ALUPEC) has not been accepted by Creole users? 

message: Hi there again, Tanketz! Thank you for your corrections (the use of prepositions in English is really unpredictable!). However, I changed back the word “conditional” to “future” because what is called “conditional” in Creole grammar is not the same as “conditional” in English grammar. I don’t have much time right now, but if you (or anybody else) are more interested, I will be glad to explain why. Ten Islands (talk) 11:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: “Conditional”

message: LOL! Spoken in Germany? Please give us the number of Cabo Verde Creole speakers in Germany so we can laugh. I bet it is 1 or 2 individuals. France ok, Netherlands yes, Portugal of course, but Germany??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.84.84 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The number of CapeVerdeans is high enough for Cape Verde to have an embassy there (unlike UK).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.93.33 (talk) 05:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  LOL! Spoken in Germany??? 

message: I want everyone who's posted on this page to watch the Talk page on Wikipedia:Wikiproject page. It's really important for everyone that's interested in Cape Verde. Wiki User 68 (talk) 01:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Push on CV Language 

message: I would like to see the reference for this statement, because according to my experience as a native Portuguese speaker there is few divergence between Cape Verdian Creole and Portuguese in the phrases used as examples:
A curiosity that makes Cape Verdean Creole closer to other creoles is the possibility of double negation (ex.: Náda m’ câ atchâ. liter. “Nothing I didn’t find.”), or sometimes even triple negation (ex.: Núnca ninguêm câ tâ bába lâ. liter. “Never nobody didn’t go there.”), in forms not allowed in Portuguese.
One of the particular features of Portuguese is also that in many structures the phrase allows double negation and it's perfectly accepted. For example, the example phrases in Portuguese would be normally spoken "Eu não achei nada" (literally, "I didn't find nothing") and "Ninguém nunca foi lá" (literally, "Nobody never went there"). Not only are those statements correct according to standard grammar, but they are also the most common form. Granted, triple negation wouldn't be allowed by the Portuguese grammar rules. However, there is a kind of triple negation in colloquial Brazilian Portuguese that repeats "não" at the end of the phrase: "Não comi nada não" ("I didn't eat nothing no"). Anyway, the triple negation alone should be explained as a curious feature of Cape Verdean creole, since double negation is not only allowed but in many situations standard in the Portuguese language (we know the inversed order of the phrase is mostly an exception in Portuguese, so the fact is that double negation is, in everyday spoken Portuguese, just as common).201.9.154.27 (talk) 02:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Multiple negation is never "curious" in any language. It's standard in a lot of languages and exists dialectally in most languages. It's a very common thing cross-linguistically. The word "curious" should be stricken altogether.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.74.105.217 (talk) 23:43, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That makes sense. I've taken it out. — Æµ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 13:48, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double negation is also allowed in Portuguese 

message: I’m sorry for my late answer. Some time ago, a user tagged the IPA symbol [ƞ] with a “clarification needed”. I am, therefore, trying to clarify this issue.
I’m aware that that symbol is no longer in use by the I. P. Alphabet. It’s a shame, it was a bad decision from the I. P. Association, because it removes the options to unmistakably represent a certain sound.
But, first of all, what is the correct description of that sound? It is better described as nasal resonance. It is not a syllabic consonant. It is a sound made through the passage of the air stream through the nasal cavity, but with no occlusion in the mouth cavity. To pronounce that sound, one might start by pronouncing the bilabial nasal consonant [m]. Then, without stopping the air flow through the nasal cavity, set the lips apart from each other… and there you have it! This sound is used only in the Sotavento varieties of Cape Verdean Creole. It is used only when the first person of the singular personal pronoun bears the function of subject. The Barlavento varieties of Cape Verdean Creole are more conservative in this aspect, and they still pronounce it as a syllabic bilabial nasal consonant [m̩] (Lopes da Silva, 1957).
The phonetic description of this sound and its writing have always been problematic. Lopes da Silva (1957) describes it as a nasal close front vowel [ĩ]. Frankly, I’ve never heard that pronounciation. However, I admit that it may not be wrong. I’ve seen in 19th century texts (de Paula Brito, 1887) the written representation as “ĩ”, what leads me to speculate that that was the pronounciation until the beginning of the 20th century. What I’ve been listening, specially among the newest generation, is the mistakenly pronounciation as a nasal close back rounded vowel [ũ] (also in people from Barlavento), specially among people with a highly Portuguese-influenced speaking. That can be clearly checked, in the writing, when those people confuse the writing of the first person of the singular personal pronoun with the writing of the numeral/indefinite article “um” [ũ]. In my idiolect, I’m not sure if I pronounce it as a vowel, but if it is so, it is closer to a nasal close central vowel [ɨ̃]. Veiga also acknowledged that problem in his proposed writing (ALUPEC), but he never describes that sound. Instead, he proposes the single written representation as a capital letter “N” (also for the Barlavento varieties that, remember, pronounce it as a syllabic bilabial nasal consonant [m̩]). Nicholas Abrial (1996), in his phonetic transcriptions, uses a tilde [~] to represent that sound (“m-sabe” [~sabe] — “I know”). Lang (2002) has a different perspective, he considers the existence of pre-nasalized consonants (“N ta kánta” [ntɐ 'kãtɐ] — “I sing”). But that leads to several issues. First, if I am not mistaken, the pre-nasalization IPA symbol is [ⁿ], and not [n] as Lang uses. Second, pre-nasalized consonants are more common among plosives, whether this sound in Sotavento varieties may appear before any phoneme ([ƞ 'lebɐ] — “I took”), but O. K., I may admit the existence of pre-nasalized fricatives, laterals, and so on. Third, this sound may appear before vowels ([ƞ 'ɐbɾi] — “I opened”). In Lang’s perspective, what does that mean? A “pre-nasalized vowel”??? And what about when this sound appears before nasal vowels ([ƞ ĩ'ʃinɐ] — “I tought”)? A “pre-nasalized nasal vowel”??? Fourth, and perhaps most important, the IPA descriptions about pre-nasalized phonemes state that they are a single phonemes, pronounced in a single voice effort. The first person of the singular personal pronoun in Cape Verdean Creole is always a syllabic phoneme, no matter the allophonic variations in Sotavento Creoles ([m̩ baj] — “I went” — [n̩ tẽ] — “I have” — [ŋ̩ kɾe] — “I want” — in all these cases always two syllables) or the dialectical variations ([ƞ 'sɐbe] — “I know”, in Santiago Creole — [m̩ sɐ'be] — “I know”, in São Vicente Creole — here, too, always three syllables). That can be easily checked in songs, where this sound is generally a separate musical note (“m’ câ crê ubí óndas tchorâ” [ŋ̩ kɐ kɾe u'bi 'ɔ̃dɐs ʧo'ɾɐ] — “I don’t want to hear the waves cry” — 9 syllables, 9 musical notes).
For all those reasons, I’ve chosen the representation used by Tude (1995) which seems unmistakable, even though it is an obsolete symbol from the IPA. Nevertheless, I’m open to suggestions. Can anyone help me, does anyone have a better suggestion for the representation of that sound?
Ten Islands (talk) 11:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a fan of using outdated IPA characters, especially one that looks so much like the engma.  Would it be too weird to represent this sound differently depending on context?  I believe this is done for Polish nasal vowels that are often oral vowels followed by a nasal homorganic to a following consonant.  — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 01:54, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification needed

message: the phoneme /ʎ/ (written “lh” in Portuguese) has evolved to /dʒ/
Is it interesting to note that that evolution is also common in Spanish?
So, in Spanish I would say, Me llamo Varlaam, with a /dʒ/ in llamo.
Varlaam (talk) 20:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  /ʎ/ → /dʒ/ 

message: I'm looking for a Cape Verdean on-line dictionary. Does something like that exist, or does an on-line community that can answer questions about the meaning of words exist?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 (talk) 14:20, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dictionary? 

message: The three theories about the formation of Creole sound fascinating. But the theories are described in such a summarised and abstract way that I can't quite grasp the difference between them. It would be good to explain the difference between the three theories more clearly.Llezsoeg (talk) 05:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theories about formation 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Cape Verdean Creole. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050618085010/http://www.clubetabanka.com:80/cv/creole.asp to http://www.clubetabanka.com/cv/creole.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060228141147/http://www.capeverdeancreoleinstitute.org:80/language_policy.htm to http://www.capeverdeancreoleinstitute.org/language_policy.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:44, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Cape Verdean Creole. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070918113801/http://caboverde.vozdipovo-online.com/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&pop=1&page=1&Itemid=30 to http://caboverde.vozdipovo-online.com/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&pop=1&page=1&Itemid=30
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070310210354/http://www.amphilsoc.org/library/mole/p/parsons.htm to http://www.amphilsoc.org/library/mole/p/parsons.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070825024159/http://www.prio.no/private/jorgen/cv_kriollanguage.html to http://www.prio.no/private/jorgen/cv_kriollanguage.html
*Added  tag to http://www.degruyter.de/journals/jall/2001/pdf/22_069.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050514091321/http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/bvc/bibbreve/006/bb06.pdf to http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/bvc/bibbreve/006/bb06.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060107233406/http://www.unb.br/il/liv/public/frusoni.htm to http://www.unb.br/il/liv/public/frusoni.htm
*Added  tag to http://caboverdetimorpoesia.com.sapo.pt/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051208153219/http://membres.lycos.fr/pontadosol/pontadosol/presentsite.htm to http://membres.lycos.fr/pontadosol/pontadosol/presentsite.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:16, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:00, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: This part of the corrections for decreolizimg example sentences seems wrong to me: "if they are Portuguese words used when speaking Creole they should be pronounced in Portuguese". Does someone have a source for who is recommending this? It's the exact opposite of my personal experience of what Creole speakers actually do. In the example sentences it seems almost insulting to Creole speakers, as if it's denying them the word "biblioteca" for library: isn't that their word for library, too? Tanketz (talk) 15:32, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for decreolization "correction" for Portuguese terms? 

message: Do any editors have plans or thoughts on revising this article with ALUPEC? As a non native speaker who is learning more about Kabuverdianu, ALUPEC has helped me interact with native speakers and and CV academics. In recent years, it has been used in many publications and it seems reasonable to revisit the question on this article. Thanks 41.221.199.125 (talk) 13:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  plans to revise article with ALUPEC