Talk:Intact dilation and extraction/Archive 2

message: Intact D&X, is a specific type of medical procedure —wherin a late-term miscarried fetus, is removed from the womb via the uterus
Two problems here:
1. This article seems to deal more with IDX used as a means of abortion as opposed to a means of removing a miscarried fetus. See how i've changed it.
2. "removed from the womb via the uterus". The womb is the uterus. I think uterus should be replaced by cervix. --ChadThomson 07:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vocab problems

message: Can we merge some sections of Intact dilation and extraction and Partial-birth abortion.  I request that we use PBA for the political / legal situation and use IDX for the medical situation.  Currently, there's a mix of duplication and information that would be better presented at the other page.  --Quasipalm 03:42, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplication

message: Dear Quasipalm,
thanks for jumping to the defense of the anon IP who cannot justify his/her changes. By now, I'm really curious on what the arguments are.
*It is important to show that a term is not used from a neutral point of view. Can you quote a single (1) source for your claim that partial-birth is not a term used mainly by pro-life movement.
:: like it or not (I'm with you in that I don't like it), this is a term commonly used in the US now -- as such I think it's important that wikipedia has it. --Quasipalm 16:13, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  not sure I follow you here...  please explain.  --Quasipalm 16:13, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll agree to the current version of the caption.--Fenice 07:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

text:  Fenice, thanks for pointing this section out -- somehow I missed it.  (Just for the record, I am pro-choice, but I think it is possible to make these articles NPOV.)  I was browsing the article and didn't see that that had been added since we discussed the removal of the POV tag.  I think this paragraph should be deleted immediatley and the entire article rescanned.  --Quasipalm 15:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fenice, I fixed this section, please let me know what you think of my edits. --Quasipalm 16:13, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV changes by anon IP

message: Original sentence:
The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the birth canal. At this point, the baby is 'partially birthed' - thus the name for this controversial procedure.
Current version:
The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the birth canal, causing what is commonly known as the 'partial-birth' of the fetus.
adds unneccessary pov. If we make a (completely superfluous) judgement on what is commonly known, we should be able to back it up, by some poll. I did a google test on some pro-choice-sites picked randomly from the link section of Pro-choice. One site did not use it at all, one says it's pro-life-rethoric and one uses it as either 'socalled partial birth' or in the word 'Partial-Birth ban act'.--Fenice 06:49, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Remaining issues

message: The article needs much better data on how many of these are actually performed.  The current estimate of 2500 to 3000 per year in the US is arrived at by pure guesswork, and it strains credulity to suggest that this many occur in the US whereas 0 occur in the UK each year.  The article is begging for actual data from an actual survey, if someone can locate one.  In the meantime, I added the sectfact tag.  Tempshill 23:36, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many are actually performed? 

message: The fetus is dead (in which case the procedure is not an abortion).
Main Entry: abor·tion
Pronunciation: &-'bor-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus;'''''
According to the above definition of abortion, whether the fetus is alive or dead should be irrelevant. Would someone please explain why abortion has been redefined to mean something different when the fetus is dead and the procedure used is D&X?
Thanks in advance.
:Usually D&X is performed after the fetus is already dead; which is more often the result of a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage).  Abortion is actually synonymous with miscarriage, but the term is rarely used in that context in the media because of confusion.  But anyway, it's not an "induced abortion" unless the fetus is alive at the time of the procedure. Peyna 20:24, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this not an abortion? 

message: AFAICS, the first description doesn't contribute anything of value that isn't said in the article's own description of the procedure; and the second quoted description is noted as being a description of a different procedure, and hence appears to be irrelevent.
Wouldn't the article be better if these two sections were simply removed? Roy Badami 16:31, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: May I ask if Roybadami and Mr. Zamfir are for or against the procedure? If you are both pro-choice, then I understand why you want the sections to be removed. Pro-life advocates would say they should stay. Both of these decisions (to delete or keep) would be based on POV, it seems. Maybe this section could be moved to Partial-birth abortion which discusses more of the controversy. The descriptions do provide a very good picture of how the descriptions of the procedure are made in such a way as to give a certain feel and implant a certain bias in a person considering the procedure or just looking for information. One is descriptive to the point of being almost gory, the other leaves out a lot of the details and says nothing about the fetus being killed, making the person looking for information that they're just having some little procedure done because they were to lazy to buy a condom, they're just removing the "products of conception", cause free sex is no big deal, you just might have to get cleaned out afterwards, and all quick enough to make it back to your boyfriend's house before his parents get home from vacation. Oops no time left to stop by the pharmacy, oh well, that wasn't THAT bad, I'll just get cleaned out again! Now that's disgusting POV!
--ChadThomson 04:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article's purpose isn't to illustrate the differences bias in language create, but to simply inform of the surgical procedure.  To repeat what's already been said, the NRL description says nothing the article's description, right above it, doesn't already say, making it redundant.  The planned parenthood description is for a completely different procedure, and I only imagine was put into this article by mistake, making it irrelevant. I don't see the purpose of having either of them in the article.Gheorghe Zamfir 05:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The language bias discussion perhaps is better fitted for what is currently contained in Partial Birth Abortion than here. Peyna 13:38, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. It would be better off in Partial Birth Abortion--ChadThomson 08:42, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do the two quoted descriptions of the procedure contribute to the article? 

message: I removed the words "killing the fetus" from the description because that seems to be biased twords one particular view on the procedure. One side believes it is not alive in the first place, while the other argues it is a free-standing human being.
:There is no controvery over whether a fetus is alive, the dispute would be whether a fetus, or embryo is a full fledged human.  But there is no question that an abortion involves the death of a fetus or embryo.Gheorghe Zamfir 09:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording

message: Does this procedure always involve the collapse of the foetal skull? Having had two friends go through this procedure in the UK due to fatal deformities of much wanted babies I don't recall either of them talking about this side of things (we are close enough that they have talked through the horrible details that they do know). They would be very distressed to read the article as it currently stands as it is very harsh and seems to dwell on the extraction of the foetal brain. Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 11:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Procedure