Talk:Satu Mare

message: First of all, what is the point of the (most likely fabricated or misinterpreted) history of demographics since 1880? I don't see a history of demographics since 1880 in the wikipedia article for other multiethinc cities (for example Bruxelles).
Secondly, I've tried to find the "source of the source" (http://varga.adatbank.transindex.ro/?pg=3&action=etnik&id=2125), because I just doubt those figures are right (in 1880, 7.9% Romanians and 83,1% Hungarians). I've found this paper, an English translation of an article by the same cited Árpád E. Varga: http://www.kia.hu/konyvtar/erdely/erdang.htm.
Quoting from  the article: "[regarding the Hungarian-ethinity population in Satu Mare, in 1880 and 1910] Similar data are available in Kolozs/Cluj county (1.7 times higher with the proportion increasing from 33.2 to 38.9 per cent); in Szatmár/Satu Mare and Ugocsa/Ugocea (where the proportion increased from 44.4 to 55.1 per cent);"
So, in 1880 there were 44.4% Hungarians in Satu Mare and in 1910 there were 55.1%. I remind you this information comes from Árpád Varga E., who is supposed to be the source of the demographics table in the current article - which contains strikingly different numbers. Since both seem to be of Hungarian origin, I can't say which is correct, but my link points to a published article whcich could be verified (Hungarians in Transylvania between 1870 and 1995, Original title: "Erdély magyar népessége 1870-1995 között", Published in Magyar Kisebbség 3-4, 1998 (New series IV), pp. 331-407., Translation by Tamás Sályi , Linguistic editing by Rachel Orbell ,
Published by Teleki László Foundation. Budapest, March 1999, Editors Nándor Bárdi, László Diószegi, András Gyertyánfy)
, while the source of the table in the current article is just a set of tables which supposedly have as primer source the work of Árpád E. Varga (but could as well be a misinterpretation, sinche the source is not really mentioned - at least I don't see it - but I don't read hungarian).
-Paul- (talk) 09:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Seemingly nobody seems to reply about the wrong data. Please see full text I was mentioning, below:
In terms of Hungarian native speakers, between 1880 and 1910 the population gain above their natural growth in the region was between 180 and 200 thousand, while Romanian losses were between 130 and 150 thousand, depending on whether we take the birth rate figures of the last decade as retrospectively relevant, or calculate with the more balanced earlier figures for nationality growth. The Romanian losses were mostly due to emigration, which increased dramatically in the 1980s, especially in southern counties of historical Transylvania and became a mass movement at the beginning of the twentieth century. Hungarian population gains, on the other hand, included a migration surplus. However, the exact value of this cannot be determined, since we are unable to give a balance of internal population exchanges between administrative units with respect to the present borders. Nevertheless, the attraction of certain central points giving rise to migration among regions is well known. In Krassó-Szörény/Caraş-Severin and Hunyad/Hunedoara counties, where natural population growth was originally low, mining areas and rapidly developing industrial centres attracted Hungarians from a distance. Thus, in three decades their number multiplied between 4.7 and 4.2 times. The proportion of Hungarians therefore increased from 1.9 per cent to 7.2 per cent, and from 5.1 to 15.5 per cent for the two areas respectively. A massive increase can be seen in certain areas of Temes/Timiş and Torontál counties (the number of Hungarians increased 2.5 times, their proportion growing from 8 per cent to 16.6 per cent). In Arad county, where the increase in proportions was average, the number of Hungarians also grew rapidly (the figure in 1910 is 1.8 times higher than in 1880, with their proportion rising from 22.3 per cent to 29 per cent). Similar data are available in Kolozs/Cluj county (1.7 times higher with the proportion increasing from 33.2 to 38.9 per cent); in Szatmár/Satu Mare and Ugocsa/Ugocea (where the proportion increased from 44.4 to 55.1 per cent); and in the Bihar (Bihor) area, where the proportion of Hungarians rose from 39.8 to 44.4 per cent in spite of the high birth rate among local Romanians. The rise in the number of Hungarian native speakers in Máramaros/Maramureş also deserves attention: the number of Hungarian native speakers here increased 2.1 times over thirty years, and the proportion grew by 5 per cent to reach 19.4 per cent in 1910. At the same time, the serious local economic and social crisis in Szeklerland is well demonstrated by the fact that here, in the smaller language area of the eastern periphery of the country, in Csík, Háromszék and Udvarhely counties, the population increase among Hungarians fell far behind even the Transylvanian average because of losses resulting from migration.
The above text can be seen on this page: http://www.kia.hu/konyvtar/erdely/erdang.htm , Hungarians in Transylvania between 1870 and 1995, Original title: "Erdély magyar népessége 1870-1995 között", Published in Magyar Kisebbség 3-4, 1998 (New series IV), pp. 331-407, Translation by Tamás Sályi, Linguistic editing by Rachel Orbell, Published by Teleki László Foundation. Budapest, March 1999
The text clearly states that in Szatmár/Satu Mare, the proportion of Hungarians was 44.4 in 1880 and 55.1% in 1910. Unfortunately the other digits cannot be verified. The strangest thing is that the author is the same as the indicated (and unverifiable) source of the table. The initial table lists as source a website which actually does not lists its source and could be very well fabricated data.
I am removing the table and inserting the only verifiable information according to the text above. -Paul- (talk) 13:28, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

text: My dear rumanian history-falsifier-wannabe friend. Those numbers are for the county by the same name (Szatmár), not for the city. So the 1880 numbers are 44% in Szatmár County and 83% for Szatmár(németi). The city had Hungarian majority while the rural areas had Romanian majority. 85.67.116.223 (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong demographics ?

message: What anti-romanian action are you talking about? Add sources please otherwise I'll delete that line
===Mayor's name===
I've corrected to hungarian orthography ... His name was change from Gyula to Iuliu involuntary, like many others name during Ceausescu era ... Emanuil Gojdu's name was also changed to Gozsdu Mano, but nobody in Romania use this form ...
: See http://www.satu-mare.ro/persoane/ilyes.html.en. In the english version of the mayor's office website, it's Iuliu. :D --Mihai -talk 18:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous phrase has no meaning. The rule for names is to use that one which the person and the media uses. Just google for "Gyula Ilyes" (excuse my Hungarian), you will find there's almost no mention of it.--Luci_Sandor (talk, contribs)   19:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Hungarians put their family name first, so you should be searching for "Ilyes Gyula", but yes, there are fewer results than for "Iuliu Ilyes". bogdan 20:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of the mayor is Iuliu Ilyes, not Gyula Ilyes. The website of the city gives the name Iuliu Ilyes in the Romanian, German and English versions (I haven't checked Hungarian). Thus, Gyula Ilyes is incorrect in the infobox.  Ronline ✉ 02:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  anti romanian actions 

message: I've corrected to hungarian orthography ... His name was change from Gyula to Iuliu involuntary, like many others name during Ceausescu era ... Emanuil Gojdu's name was also changed to Gozsdu Mano, but nobody in Romania use this form ...
: See http://www.satu-mare.ro/persoane/ilyes.html.en. In the english version of the mayor's office website, it's Iuliu. :D --Mihai -talk 18:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous phrase has no meaning. The rule for names is to use that one which the person and the media uses. Just google for "Gyula Ilyes" (excuse my Hungarian), you will find there's almost no mention of it.--Luci_Sandor (talk, contribs)   19:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Hungarians put their family name first, so you should be searching for "Ilyes Gyula", but yes, there are fewer results than for "Iuliu Ilyes". bogdan 20:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of the mayor is Iuliu Ilyes, not Gyula Ilyes. The website of the city gives the name Iuliu Ilyes in the Romanian, German and English versions (I haven't checked Hungarian). Thus, Gyula Ilyes is incorrect in the infobox.  Ronline ✉ 02:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mayor's name

message: "The population of Satu Mare is 160,421"
The population of Satu Mare is aprox. 120000 not 160000.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.103.143.47 (talk) 16:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Populatian 

message: Since you choose to ignore the time-line per assume good faith I will not revert these "changes" yet. About this  the reference has 3 problems for now:
*1) It seems to be like a ghost web page that I can create in 5 min and write some stuff and claim it as a source. 
*2) The author you claim to be is Béla Köpeczi who seems to be like a credible person but on this web page there is no sign of him but instead it is written by Zoltán Szász who is some unknown person.
*3) It is a pro-Hungarian web page where information can`t be trusted. 
This page is not credible and if you really want to introduce this you need to find a valid reference. Adrian (talk) 11:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not questioning this facility but the connection of this web page with the library. Sorry but Zoltán Szász  can`t be taken seriosly and this page about him in Hungarian doesn`t mean anything to a non-Hungarian reader, but Ok. Then I have links1;2;3 that states that Transylvania and Crisana also unified with Romania On the 18th of November 1918 which means that Satu Mare from that date became a part of Romania exactly as the sentence said In 1918, as a result of the Union of Transylvania with Romania, Satu Mare ceased to be part of Austria-Hungary and became part of Romania. as it should be re-introduced to the article as it was. Adrian (talk) 18:23, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference not valid 

message: About this  , reference talks about Satu Mare, as a city with a village name(and talking about Satu Maru - Big village), I thought that is enought to support it`s name translation. Adrian (talk) 16:55, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: References should support the entirety of the text that precedes them. The Adevărul source does indeed support what you say it does, and I commend you for adding it. My point was that we as yet have no source for the Romanian name being changed in 1925. At some point in the future, one should be found and added. - Biruitorul Talk 18:53, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  My contributions 

message: A good Wiki page contains Other names section
Readder (talk) 06:30, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other names 

message: Please stop undo-ing my edit. I've thoroughly explained everything back in 2009 in the "wrong demographics" section above. Nobody cared to correct the wrong info till 2013 !? And now I am not allowed to do it?
-Paul- (talk) 11:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And what about this source ? It states, for example, that in 1880 only 5% of the population was Romanian and 88.8% Hungarian. If the table to be refined, it should be done based on other reliable sources, such as the one I have just cited. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 18:21, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regarding your source, Keortefa, it seems interesting but I've noticed that the 1930 census data are wrong. They do not match the official census data which are available. I wouldn't want to generalize, but many some Hungarian sources tend to distort the actual data (that doesn't mean all of them). This one might be the "distorting" type because the cesus of december 1930 is well-recorded.
Also the current table contains wrong data for 1930. What should we do about this?
Here is the real data:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/a/a0/Satmar1930pop1-1.jpg
So the table contains this info: 1930 - 53,010 total population, with Romanians 28.9% and Hungarians 57.1%, while the offical data is Municipality (=city) of Satu Mare: total - 51495, Romanians 16251 (=31,6%) and 21916 (=42,6% rounded up!). To me, it seems yet again that the some Hungarian-ethnicity editors have a "not-so-well-hidden" agenda of messing with history and population data on all the wikis (believe me, I know what I'm talking). 
Now who is going to correct the table? The table citation is a website which actually contains only tables and doesn't indicate any source. How can we check the other data? Should the table remain there?
-Paul- (talk) 12:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have you at least read my source? The current source is just a website which mentions as source the author, but doesn't mention any source. This data is unverifiable, while my data is from a clear source (and hungarian too). -Paul- (talk) 09:14, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

text: Paul, if you claim that the (referenced) data is wrong, then bring the correct data with a different reference, not remove what we have. bogdan (talk) 18:29, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't understand. I've already brought the correct data in the Wrong Demographics section above (above means scroll up!)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Satu_Mare#Wrong_demographics_.3F
Here it is again:
Seemingly nobody seems to reply about the wrong data. Please see full text I was mentioning, below:
In terms of Hungarian native speakers, between 1880 and 1910 the population gain above their natural growth in the region was between 180 and 200 thousand, while Romanian losses were between 130 and 150 thousand, depending on whether we take the birth rate figures of the last decade as retrospectively relevant, or calculate with the more balanced earlier figures for nationality growth. The Romanian losses were mostly due to emigration, which increased dramatically in the 1980s, especially in southern counties of historical Transylvania and became a mass movement at the beginning of the twentieth century. Hungarian population gains, on the other hand, included a migration surplus. However, the exact value of this cannot be determined, since we are unable to give a balance of internal population exchanges between administrative units with respect to the present borders. Nevertheless, the attraction of certain central points giving rise to migration among regions is well known. In Krassó-Szörény/Caraş-Severin and Hunyad/Hunedoara counties, where natural population growth was originally low, mining areas and rapidly developing industrial centres attracted Hungarians from a distance. Thus, in three decades their number multiplied between 4.7 and 4.2 times. The proportion of Hungarians therefore increased from 1.9 per cent to 7.2 per cent, and from 5.1 to 15.5 per cent for the two areas respectively. A massive increase can be seen in certain areas of Temes/Timiş and Torontál counties (the number of Hungarians increased 2.5 times, their proportion growing from 8 per cent to 16.6 per cent). In Arad county, where the increase in proportions was average, the number of Hungarians also grew rapidly (the figure in 1910 is 1.8 times higher than in 1880, with their proportion rising from 22.3 per cent to 29 per cent). Similar data are available in Kolozs/Cluj county (1.7 times higher with the proportion increasing from 33.2 to 38.9 per cent); in Szatmár/Satu Mare and Ugocsa/Ugocea (where the proportion increased from 44.4 to 55.1 per cent); and in the Bihar (Bihor) area, where the proportion of Hungarians rose from 39.8 to 44.4 per cent in spite of the high birth rate among local Romanians. The rise in the number of Hungarian native speakers in Máramaros/Maramureş also deserves attention: the number of Hungarian native speakers here increased 2.1 times over thirty years, and the proportion grew by 5 per cent to reach 19.4 per cent in 1910. At the same time, the serious local economic and social crisis in Szeklerland is well demonstrated by the fact that here, in the smaller language area of the eastern periphery of the country, in Csík, Háromszék and Udvarhely counties, the population increase among Hungarians fell far behind even the Transylvanian average because of losses resulting from migration.
The above text can be seen on this page: http://www.kia.hu/konyvtar/erdely/erdang.htm , Hungarians in Transylvania between 1870 and 1995, Original title: "Erdély magyar népessége 1870-1995 között", Published in Magyar Kisebbség 3-4, 1998 (New series IV), pp. 331-407, Translation by Tamás Sályi, Linguistic editing by Rachel Orbell, Published by Teleki László Foundation. Budapest, March 1999
The text clearly states that in Szatmár/Satu Mare, the proportion of Hungarians was 44.4 in 1880 and 55.1% in 1910. Unfortunately the other digits cannot be verified. The strangest thing is that the author is the same as the indicated (and unverifiable) source of the table. The initial table lists as source a website which actually does not lists its source and could be very well fabricated data.
I am removing the table and inserting the only verifiable information according to the text above. -Paul- (talk) 09:09, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  I must stand corrected - my reference, in that paragraph, is about Satu Mare county, not city. I will correct the information in the article and I think it should remain there because it is interesting to notice that, although the proportion of Romanian speaking population in the city of Satu Mare was of 7,95 and 6,3% in 1880 and 1910 respectively, the Romanian population in the area (the whole county) was in a quite larger percentage, of 44.4% in 1880 and 55.1% in 1910. -Paul- (talk) 09:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am messing Romanians and Hungarians the other way I know - I've corrected in the article too. The 44.4% in 1880 and 55.1% are Hungarian speakers in the county. -Paul- (talk) 10:07, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Bogdangiusca 

message: The "Historical population of Satu Mare" table contains some questionable data.
I have managed to identify the source of error: the census for some of the years including 1930 were recorded based on both "native language" and nationality. The a and n letters after the years (1930a and 1930n) in the cited source mean Anyanyelv and Nemzetiség (language vs nationality), concepts also explained in the abstract of this article . Nevertheless, the contributor who inserted the table decided to handpick the most convenient set of data- that based of declared native language, instead of declared nationality. 
Amost 10'000 (ten thousand) Romanians declared Romanian nationality of Hungarian language (possible result of the half a century of Magyarization):
year   total    romanian hungarian
1930a  53010    15372    30380      / by language
1930n  53010    17679    21940      /by nationality
-Paul- (talk) 13:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics based on nationality or language? 

message: In the Climate section, there is this sentence: "As the city is in the far north of the country, winter is much colder than the national average, with an average temperature of −17 °C (1 °F), lower than values recorded in other cities in western Romania like Oradea (−15 °C (5 °F)) or Timișoara (−17 °C (1 °F))."
The section then says Satu Mare's climate has a Cfb classification, which appears to rule out a winter average temperature of −17 °C (because the coldest month in a location with Cfb climate is not supposed to have an average less than −3 °C). The climate table also confirms this, with winter average low temperatures well above −17 °C.
I note that the source does mention the temperature −17 °C, but for the above reason, it seems implausible that this is the average winter temperature.
It therefore looks like there is a self-contradiction in this section - can someone figure out how it gets resolved?
67.87.19.22 (talk) 04:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency in climate section? 

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message: First of all, the name of the railway station has been changed decades ago to "Satu Mare Sud". Second, the station's name was never "Ferastrau". It was "Ferestrau". I'm aware that in the current Romanian language the right form for "saw" is "ferastrau" but this is not about the language, we're talking about a name. A very old one.
Names don't follow rules. If one's I.D. holds the name "Adholph", that's his name regardless of any rule.
Near the station there is still a street called Strada Garii Ferestrau.
The name was used because next to the station there was a big lumber mill with a steam powered saw. In fact, the large volume of the wood handled by the lumber mill was the reason why a railway station was built there.Srelu (talk) 23:33, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Gara Ferastrau"? 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090617070502/http://www.numaibaschet.ro/echipe/333-CSM-Satu-Mare to http://www.numaibaschet.ro/echipe/333-CSM-Satu-Mare
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111225130602/http://www.transurbansatumare.ro/trans/ to http://www.transurbansatumare.ro/trans/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This needs upating.  Arcandor went bankrupt some years ago.  I've no idea what  happened to its facilities in this city. Boscaswell talk 10:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economy section:  Arcandor 

message: Hello!
I'm confused about this matter, so I thought I'd start a discussion. There is a number of maps depicting the Maramures region in both Maramures and Satu Mare counties, like these: 1, 2, 3. However, others show a separate region in the area, called "Satmar" or "Satu Mare": 4, 5, 6.
Obviously, neither of these maps can be considered a source which provides the answer. But those different looking maps can be misleading and confusing, so I thought we'd discuss this. On the Maramureș article, the region, as depicted on the map, does not include the Satu Mare area. If we presume that the historical Maramures is based on the Hungarian Máramaros County, then Satu Mare is also not included, having been part of the Szatmár county.
So, if Satu Mare is not part of Maramures, but also not of Crisana, what is it then? Romania is traditionally divided in its 9 subregions; every part of the country is also part of one of said regions. You do hear the expression "Banat, Crisana and Maramures", but not "Banat, Crisana, Satmar and Maramures". Any opinions? Lupishor (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a matter of the opinion. For me, Maramureș is just what the Hungarian county covered, and Satu Mare is in Crișana. But some will say that it is part of Maramureș and others will say that it is part of Sătmar. I would avoid using Sătmar as a separate region from Crișana but we probably shouldn't chose between Crișana and Maramureș, but just say Satu Mare may be considered part of both regions. Super Ψ Dro 22:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

text: If we took that river as the border of Crișana, I would include the other half of Satu Mare in Maramureș. It is better to avoid using Sătmar as a separate region from both. Although it's still a Crișanan city to me. I always though of Crișana as everything between the Carpathians and the border with Hungary (or the Tisza) that isn't Transylvania, Banat or Maramureș. The fact that there are no sources discussing something like this leaves this issue to the users' interpretation. I would use "Satu Mare [...] may br included in the regions of Crișana, Maramureș, or both" in the lead and "Crișana/Maramureș" in the infobox. Super Ψ Dro 09:11, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Satu Mare lie in the Maramures region?