Talk:Sergei Prokofiev

message: "In 1948, Prokofiev was attacked for producing 'anti-democratic formalism'."
You don't say. By whom? Or do we want to avoid saying?
LewisChessman (talk) 03:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mysteriously passive voice 

message: Considering the Russian invasion of Ukraine, is it accurate to describe Prokofiev as a "Russian" composer? Honest question, not trying to revise things if that is true.
He was born in Ukraine, but was he ethnically Russian or Ukrainian? I think it's important to be accurate here for the sake of not inadvertently supporting cultural erasure. 
Even if he was ethnically Russian, he was born in Ukraine, so it seems fair to list him in the "Ukrainian Composers" category. Modern Ukraine is not an ethnostate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boringalias (talk • contribs) 19:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Prokofiev was born in what was then a part of the Russian Empire and was legally a Russian citizen; he remained one until his death (a Soviet Russian, anyway). Denoting him as a "Ukrainian" would be as anachronistic as denoting Immanuel Kant a "Russian" because he happened to be born in a city that is today part of Russia. Discourse about Prokofiev during his life and long after referred to him exclusively as a Russian composer. For example, Alfred Schnittke, himself a Russian-born multiethnic artist, referred to Prokofiev as "the greatest Russian composer of the time" ("On Prokofiev" in A Schnittke Reader, p. 62). Prokofiev's second wife Mira Mendelson makes no mention of him being "Ukrainian" in her memoirs and diaries. (Interestingly enough, Mendelson herself was born in Ukraine.) Simon Morrison wrote that the Kremlin viewed Prokofiev as "an ambassador-at-large of Russian (Soviet) culture" (The People's Artist: Prokofiev's Soviet Years, pg. 1). I don't believe Prokofiev himself identified as Ukrainian or identified closely with its culture; neither did his parents, apparently. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:24, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it not possible to at least call him Soviet-Russian composer? 95.118.62.132 (talk) 23:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike Shostakovich, for whom a similarly worded compromise was included in the lead of his article (“Soviet-era Russian composer”), a significant portion of Prokofiev’s professional career occurred before the Soviet Union existed. After the October Revolution, he spent the next 19 years in exile, first in the United States, then later in Europe. Altogether these total 27 years, versus the 17 he spent in the Soviet Union. Therefore, “Soviet-Russian” or some such would not be an accurate designation for Prokofiev. It’s also a bit of a mouthful and potentially confusing. Other editors may feel differently, of course. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prokofiev's ethnicity? 

message: He was born in Ukraini. How come that in the text say that he was Russian? 89.152.100.251 (talk) 22:20, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Because as I explained to the previous editor above, Prokofiev was born in what was then a part of the Russian Empire; thus, he was legally a Russian citizen and remained one until his death. Ukraine at the time of his birth was not independent and its status as a constituent part of the Russian Empire was not disputed. In addition, Prokofiev, while late in life expressing several times the desire to see his birthplace again, neither seemed to personally identify as Ukrainian nor identified with its culture. His parents, too, seemed to identify more as Russians; among the languages that he learned at home, Ukrainian is not documented to be one of them. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

text: When he was born, the Ukraine as a country would not exist for another 100 years. I doubt that he could even speak Ukrainian. He lived in Russia, the United States, France, and the Soviet Union, but never in Ukraine 2A02:AA10:D242:A080:811A:138A:9F84:6B0A (talk) 22:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ukrainian vs Russian 

message: Projofiev is NOT a russian composerget your facts straight Projofiev was born as ukrainian i know very well you will ignore this fact and continue w russian — but the truth is Prokofiev was ukrainian/ american composer having studied in russia Now who is right you are me? The history books got it wrong which is no big surprise to me paul kenner louisiana 2600:8807:4801:C900:7900:674:B1B6:16AC (talk) 00:35, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:42, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2022 

message: Hello, why is there no Infobox about this great composer? What are the issues? Er nesto (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read this for more details on the infobox issue. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is there no Infobox? 

message: Regardless of Curry's insistence, it's only reasonable to say Russian composer born in present-day Ukraine 76.11.2.233 (talk) 21:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: And how is this relevant to his notability? Mellk (talk) 21:34, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: @Mellk it's relevant to historical accuracy 2600:100E:B076:B036:7534:3D45:2FAF:E408 (talk) 18:55, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There are guidelines on this, see MOS:ETHNICITY. Mellk (talk) 21:34, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: So he was Ukrainian 2A00:23C6:9C52:B301:F1BB:AC11:64D:A8F8 (talk) 21:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still born in present-day Ukraine. 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:37, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The Reddit thread linked (when read in full) illustrates a good argument for changing which of Prokofiev's two birthdays (or pairs of birthdays with OS) this article should consider the principal one (see note 2 below the article). We are currently in disagreement with the Encyclopædia Britannica, because of citation 6, an entry in a "concise" 1990s dictionary - potentially overestimating the trustworthiness of birth certificates and underestimating the importance of Prokofiev's own view of his birthday.  PurpleQuaver (talk) 01:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument made there appears to be that certificates can be wrong. One's own beliefs can also be wrong. That doesn't seem to be a strong reason to change what's here. What is the balance of sourcing for the two possible dates? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthday priority?  

message: Prokofiev was born on 23th of april, not 27th. Fix it please. Glebushko0703 (talk) 14:39, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 15:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2023 

message: Hello! This is to let editors know that :File:Prokofieff (i.e. Prokofiev) LCCN2014708419 Crop 2.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 25, 2023. A preview of the POTD can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-07-25. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page.  If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Aviafanboi (talk) 02:34, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured picture scheduled for POTD 

message: Does Golan v. Holder still apply to Prokofiev's works? As he died 70 years ago last year are his works now public domain? 2A02:A46A:2C29:1:95E3:C2DB:2C39:2D60 (talk) 01:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golan v. Holder 

message: I think that the Ukrainian name of Sergei could be added. For example, in the article Leonid Brezhnev, even he self-described himself as a Russian, there's also a Ukrainian name added which probably is because he was born in Ukraine. PoisonHK ✉ Sapiens dominabitur astris 16:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't explain the rationale for the Brezhnev edit. It has no bearing here any way per WP:OTHERSTUFF. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 16:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

text: About your claim of "he was born was a legally recognized part of Russia and often referred to as such", I just want you to clarify did you mean the Russian Empire, or the modern Russian State. PoisonHK ✉ Sapiens dominabitur astris 16:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time, SSP's birthplace was Russia. In 1936, he chose to repatriate to the RSFSR rather than the Ukrainian SSR. It's worth noting that in 1940 when he was first nominated for a Stalin Prize, the jury dropped him after the first round because there were too many Russians nominated and not enough "national" composers. Instead, the switched him out with Levko Revutsky, precisely because he was Ukrainian, whereas Prokofiev was not. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 16:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think my argument of Brezhnev doesn't comply to WP:OTHERSTUFF since Brezhnev's article is a GA. Moreover, SSP was born in modern Ukrainian borders. In fact, many articles of anti-Ukrainian people or Russians born in modern Ukrainian borders got a Ukrainian name just like Brezhnev. PoisonHK ✉ Sapiens dominabitur astris 16:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: According to that logic, Brezhnev's Ukrainian name should be dropped from his article because SSP's article, which is also GA, does not include one. For that matter, why not add Russian Cyrillic to Immanuel Kant's article, since its subject was born in a city now part of Russia? Anyway, this is a discussion about SSP, not other people. There is no evidence that he ever used a Ukrainian name. He was not an ethnic Ukrainian, there is no evidence that he spoke Ukrainian, and his first Stalin Prize nomination failed because he was not Ukrainian. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:15, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Immanuel Kant's article shouldn't have a Russian native name, that's because Kaliningrad was never a Russian city before WW2. In this case, Sergei was born in a formerly majority Ukrainian-speaking region (before the Holodomor during 1932-33 fyi), that's why I do think the name should be added. PoisonHK ✉ Sapiens dominabitur astris 17:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: I believe that what appears as superscripts [n 2] and [n 3] should appear in the article body, [n 2] for consistency with multiple other articles that show pronunciation info in-line, and [n 3] because it can interest people to know about his birthday.
I'm not experienced enough to do the editing myself.
[n 2] /prəˈkɒfiɛf, proʊ-, -ˈkɔː-, -ˈkoʊ-, -jɛf, -jɛv, -iəf/; Russian: Сергей Сергеевич Прокофьев, tr. Sergey Sergeyevich Prokofiev, IPA: [sʲɪˈrɡʲej sʲɪˈrɡʲe(j)ɪvʲɪtɕ prɐˈkofʲjɪf] ⓘ; alternative transliterations of his name include Sergey or Serge, and Prokofief, Prokofieff, or Prokofyev. In this name that follows Eastern Slavic naming customs, the patronymic is Sergeyevich and the family name is Prokofiev
[n 3] While Sergei Prokofiev himself believed 11/23 April to be his birth date, the posthumous discovery of his birth certificate showed that he was actually born four days later, on 15/27 April. AK2022 (talk) 12:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, but it seems there must have been some consensus to indicate this information in superscripts. At least, I gather that from a number of articles that make similar use of superscripts (e.g. Dmitri Shostakovich, Vladimir Horowitz, Igor Stravinsky). —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation and Brthday