Talk:Neal Cassady

message: Shouldn't there be a bit more depth about the Joan Anderson Letter and its influence on Kerouac and his writing of On The Road? It was a large influence on Kerouac's theory of spontaneous prose. IrishGuy 06:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I do know of this, and I am admittedly no expert, is that Kerouac's writing was along the Wolfian lines of The Town and the City until he read the letter. Kerouac wrote his own letters praising Cassady's letter. He even passed it along to many others which is why so much of the letter was lost (all that exists is a fragment). That, in conjunction with Cassady's speech (in person and the various recordings they made) seemed to be the turning point for Kerouac to find his voice as it were. IrishGuy 04:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll try to get some hard references for it and do some work on the article this week. IrishGuy 04:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: letter

message: I added the book Friendly & Flowing Savage to the list of books about Appearances in Literature.
IrishGuy moved it to the Neal Cassady bibliography section. I moved it back, Bold text'Bold text'since it is not a book by Neal, but about his literary influence.
IrishGuy again moved it, this time to the Biography section. It is not a biography, but a literary study of Neal Cassady as an influence on other writers. It does not belong in the Biography or Bibliography sections. I feel that the Appearances in Literature section is more appropriate since the book documents all of these, including some not already listed in that section.
Maybe a new section is required, such as Literary Studies?
Over to you, IrishGuy.
Pitoucat 23:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. I'm not trying to be combatative nor am I making any concerned efforts to alter your edits. I just think that the Appearances in Literature section (at least as it stands now) is books written not specifically about Cassady but where he makes appearances (Kerouac, Ginsburg, Wolfe, et al) whereas the book in question isn't technically literature but instead (at least from what I can gather having not read it myself) is more of a guide to Cassady's many appearances in literature. That's why I feel it might be better suited to the biography section as it is technically more in that vein. But if you disagree, feel free to move it back to the Appearances section. IrishGuy 23:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Honestly, if you really feel that could be a problem (in reference to the book being misconstrued) then by all means, place it back in the Appearances section. You are more familiar with the book than I am. If you feel it should go there, then by all means do so. IrishGuy 00:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book category 

message: I noticed you made some date changes, Pitoucat.  Unfortunately they are not correct.  Don't know what sources you might be using.
The Merry Prankster trip with Ken was definitely in 1964.
I met up with Neal during January, 1968.  Neal, Annie and George had just driven down to Puerto Vallarta, and they were staying at a beach house just south of town. We spent a week or so there before heading on to other destinations. Shortly after we returned to the U.S., in early February, 1968, we heard of Neal's death. Founders4 07:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the trip to NYC with Pranksters was in June 1964, but Neal had met Kesey long before that -- in the summer of 1962.
Neal, George Walker, Steven Lambrecht, Gloria Quornstrom and Anne Murphy drove to Mexico in January 1967 (not 1968) and stayed in Puerto Vallarta. Anne flew back to the USA in February, and the others in April, leaving Neal in San Miguel de Allende. Neal returned to USA in May.
He left again for Mexico on January 28, 1969, with an experimental filmmaker from LA, to meet up with Janice Brown in San Miguel. He died on February 4.
This information comes from my research and interviews with George Walker, Anne Murphy, and Kathy Van Leeuwen. I'm confident that the dates of 1962 and 1967 are correct and so I have changed them back.  Pitoucat 07:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date Changes 

message: Just reviewed a couple of other sources.  As was the case with many of us during this period, Neal was all over the map in 1967-68, which adds to the difficulty of pinning down specific dates.   All sources, however, agree that Neal died on February 4, 1968.
The reason I KNOW that I saw Neal in Puerto Vallarta in January, 1968 is because that trip intensified longstanding personality conflicts between me and my longtime girlfriend; after the trip we separated, and we both moved out of our house in February, 1968.  We found out about Neal's death while we were packing.
If you read some of the interviews with Carolyn Cassady, she refers to a call she got from Neal shortly before he died, just as he was crossing the border into Mexico, though she doesn't provide an exact date.  He voiced his desire to "come home," but she was sure it couldn't be that way. 
So we know that Neal entered Mexico shortly before he died.  The more I think about it, the more I think your January, 1967 information must reference an earlier trip.  Please keep in mind the old adage, "If you remember the '60's you must not have been there."  One really does have to put things together using several sources to get the dates right.
Hope the changes I made work for you.  Neal made many trips to Mexico, and all we really know is that the trip he made just before he died was his last, so that's what I wrote.  This leaves open the likelihood of an earlier trip during 1967.
Neal's mental and physical deterioration during the years after serving his sentence at San Quentin was quite severe, and his non-stop ingestion of methedrine, LSD and an assortment of other drugs didn't help.  It was apparent to me the last time I saw him that Neal was in trouble; Carolyn says that he was in deep conflict, and essentially suicidal, during the last five years of his life.  Nevertheless, his death still came as a shock; we all expected him to be around forever.Founders4 11:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Following Review of Other Date Sources 

message: Thanks, Pitoucat, for sending me the primary source material confirming Neal's trip to Mexico in January, 1967 along with material that corroborates Anne Murphy's presence there during the same period.
I found the source of my error in thinking...a photo that was incribed "1968" instead of "1967."  Regarding the contextual memory, I was simply mistaken.
I've changed the dates to reflect the reality.  Neal, Anne, George et al stayed in a beachside house just south of Puerto Vallarta during January, 1967--not January, 1968 as I originally wrote.Founders4 07:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resolution of Date Disagreement 

message: Yes, this is a very good and germane point. You write about his family history of an alcoholic father, constantly moving about, living meagerly just off the streets, and then as we all know Neal Cassady himself was a second generation partier, constantly on the move, living a checkered life in society in a very opportune and almost forgiving time where a modest income and the right friends could provide an aristocratic party lifestyle without having to own anything.  Now its all about ownership and everything is so expensive people have to constantly work to keep their payments up and these times are anything but forgiving where occasional hard drinking is considered a serious disease and moral failing.  Neal Cassidy would not have done nearly as well in these times and we would probably never of ever heard of him.
It may well be he comes from a family loaded with a form of workable bipolar mood disorder where self-medication with alcohol and the popular agents of the day followed two generations of its males.  All the restive activity with the obvious high intelligence and charm and artistic ability yet self-destructive streak do point in this direction.  But in the 60's this type of personality wasn't considered a disorder, but more a love and pain to those close to the person.  Rather than medicalize it as would happen today, it was celebrated and immitated with high exuberance.  A careful reading of all that was said and done shows both intense highs and lows thematic during his reign as the perfect guy everyone around him wanted to be.   
In F. Scott Fitzgerald's self-novel The Crack Up, or Keroacs tales of Big Sur, etc, these former brilliant authors talk about the down side of being up and their productivity cratered with it.  You see this in so many artists of various mediums, Lennon went deeply into a black period, so did Garcia, and certainly did Cobain etc etc.  All tragic endings.  Brilliant minds, brave souls, and rather unpleasant later years.  Its all mood changes, compounded by physical changes, relationships that went sour, and the lack of the feeling of freshness.  
Some, workaholics, like Keysey, Babba Dam Rass(Alport) keep it much more together and just accepted changes gracefully as they knew the next morning they had work to do.  And they had very different, more mood steady personalities yet not the full voltage of the others with the higher name recognition.
Finally, Neal Cassady was so popular as he was a stream of conciousness lubricant for the story-teller: he helped move the story along but he was not a perceptual artist like Kerouac. He was legs on the man, the necessary fulcrum to drop an observation on that would push it over the hill.  Its not right to call Kerouac a stream-of-conciousness writer as that ignores his keen observational gifts of what he see's as he describes "the beat".   Everyone wanted his take on what "the Beat" was and when he trys in vain to describe its 100 faces cracked into a diamond you have everyman explaining  to a one dimensional audience a trip to the zoo.  That is an artist, the one who can explain the blur of colors as you pass by so you too can see them one at a time.  That was kerouac describing "the beat" inside the nightclub.  You can see it.  You can feel it.  That was the real Kerouac, not this idealized notion of some Hemingwayesque character passing through a "moveable feast" of that era.  Go back to the primary source and read him fresh.  You will find his writing fresh as the day it was written, as if your reading it for the first time without all that other literary gossip noise.
As America crossed into the 1990's it lost its literary tradition as nothing fresh and vivrant, nothing alive, in this age of spin indoctrination and multi-tierd commercialization is going on anymore.   Its as if the beats, the hips, the last gasp of the grunge's just stepped off the planet taking any real USA artistic originality with them. But if you go back and just read what the Beats were saying, they were predicting this all along, then the kid's came along with guitars and let us have one last spin before God closed up shop.  There is an elder Keysey video of him at his farm showing a last few doodles in green on his way out the door.  209.101.236.168 21:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What about more discussion of his personality?

message: "Cosmic Charlie" was a 60's street character, sometimes referred to as "The Wandering Holy Man."  His real name was Charles Altman.  The Grateful Dead tune by this name was not inspired by Neal Cassady.Founders4 08:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of "Cosmic Charlie" reference 

message: This article seems to have far too many external links, anyone want to attempt to clean them up a bit? Russeasby 18:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: I added references (1) and (2) in the legacy section that discusses Cassady's appearance in Grateful Dead tunes.  I think I did it properly, however the references do not come up when you click them.  Any ideas?Apostle12 20:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with references 

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 00:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: I have removed the image on the basis of an OTRS ticket from his widow who asserts a fee *must* be paid for use of the image. --Brianmc 10:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Image was restored following some clarification on the purposes of Wikipedia. --Brianmc 11:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image removed 

message: Perhaps I'm a wiki-tard.  Could someone explain to me why there's a separate category called "Further Reading" that contains only the title: Carolyn Cassady :Off the Road: Twenty Years with Cassady, Kerouac and Ginsberg when that same title also appears earlier in the Published Bios section?  Also, after following the link for the "Further Reading" section, I found nothing to indicate that book was published by Black Spring Press.  When I searched Amazon, I found publisher as Penguin and the date as 1991, not 1990 or 2007.  What's up with this?  Leodmacleod - 4:54 27-09-07 (UTC)
Off the Road was first published in the UK by Black Spring Press in 1990, as a hardcover edition.
Pitoucat (talk) 20:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A new, revised verson of OFF THE ROAD was published this year.  It is only available through Amazon UK.  Carolyn Cassady has incorporated quite a bit of new information.  Founders4 05:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Here is the link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/202-1407283-7727069?ie=UTF8&keywords=off%20the%20road&tag=newgranmegalitpa&index=blended&Amazon.co.uk.x=7&Amazon.co.uk.y=8&link%5Fcode=qs
Founders4 05:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Your suggestion is a good one.  Please make it clear, though, that the new edition is only available through AmazonUK. Thanks. Founders4 07:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the separate book categories? 

message: By his own account, as of January 1967, Cassady had maintained an on-again, off-again sexual relationship with Allen Ginsburg; when he spoke of this they had last slept together in late 1966.  Apostle12 (talk) 03:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You should at least spell GINSBERG correctly. Tabasco da Gammla (talk) 20:06, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cassady's Sexual Relationship with Ginsburg 

message: It was Neal Cassady that started me a travelin'
All the stories that were told, I believed them, every one
And it's a windin' road I'm on, you understand
No time to worry 'bout tomorrow, when you're followin' the sun...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.72.90 (talk) 04:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doobie Brothers Lyrics 

message: I AM WRITING IN CAPS IN HOPES OF GETTING SOMEBODY'S ATTENTION AT THE EDITORIAL END
I HAVE NUMEROUS TIMES TRIED TO CORRECT AN ERROR IN THE NEAL CASSADY ARTICLE BUT SOMEONE IS OUT OF  CONTROL AND IS  ERASING EVERYTHING I WRITE.
THIS SAME PERSON PRESUMABLY WROTE THE  INACCURATE MATERIAL. IF THIS PERSON  WANTS TO KEEP HIS OPINION IN THE ARTICLE THAT IS FINE, SO LONG AS THE MORE ACCURATE INFORMATION IS IN THE ARTICLE ALSO. 
HERE IS THE CONTEXT:
"Cassady was not a heavy drinker, though he may have participated in a toast to the bride and groom." ORIGINAL
ADDED BY ME:
On the other hand, Cassady like most or all the  Beats sought the peak experience. For a light drinker, he could put on a fair imitation of heavy drinking–he was observed putting away a fifth of vodka straight from the bottle at one party in the mid-60's. This was consistent with his drug use and abuse. His sexual activities followed the same pattern. He pursued young college girls 25 years his junior for a one-night stand. And it is pretty well documented that he was bi-sexual when the occasion arose."
PRETENDING THAT A HEDONIST LIKE NEAL WITH HIS TRACK  RECORD WOULD OH SO DELICATELY RESTRICT HIS DRINKING TO A TOAST TO THE BRIDE AND GROOM IS ABSURD, AND AN INSULT, IF NOT TO HIS MEMORY, TO THE BIOGRAPHICAL GENRE.
ED BROOKS  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.210.205.18 (talk) 20:11, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The proper term for what you added is "Original Research," or O.R., which is not allowed in Wikipedia.  You could theoretically add such material, PROVIDED you reference a reliable, published source. Apostle12 (talk) 20:59, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

text: I visited the website and found the "Snapshots" piece with its reference to Neal's drinking.  I don't doubt you witnessed this; many of us saw Neal imbibe alcohol, though it was far from his favorite drug.  Unfortunately the website, and your contributions to it, are not considered a "Reliable Source," as per Wikipedia rules.  Apostle12 (talk) 04:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

text: You postulate that we might be "embarrassed," which is not the case.  It's just that we don't care to engage with editors who project a confrontational attitude, like yourself. Apostle12 (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

text: FU  Apostle12 (talk) 04:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: There is a connection between the Dunites and the Beats that should be followed up on and could prove to be important for the article:
[Gavin Arthur] taught a philosophy class at San Quentin; among his students was Neal Cassady...
If anyone has more information, please let me know. Viriditas (talk) 07:44, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gavin Arthur 

message: my apologies. i read some of these books too long ago to provide specific reference, but wasn't neal in the psycedelic era in general opposed to such drugs, doubting that they provided any real insight? just because he was a central figure in this era it does not necessarily mean he indulged.
ooops * forgot to sign the last post * 184.74.68.133 (talk) 22:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Neal definitely "indulged," to use your term.  Methamphetamine, though generally viewed as destructive by the psychedelic crowd, fueled his storytelling marathons. And he seldom turned down psilocybin, mescaline or LSD.  More important, however, is the fact that Neal was always "on the bus;" he optimized every opportunity to make human connections with those around him. Apostle12 (talk) 00:24, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: sparrow in the woodshed

message: im just getting used to this * an additional note * wasnt there some resentment of jack after the book appeared? does anyone know if this is true, and if so what form it took. since these are major figures of an era it would seem to be significant. 184.74.68.133 (talk) 22:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  distancing after On the Road appeared 

message: When the track by Norman Cook aka Fatboy Slim first came out I sent a taped copy to Merry Prankster Ken Babbs. He replied telling me that the talking voice used on the track was not Neal but in fact himself talking on stage at the 1969 Woodstock music festival. He wrote that he hadn't known anyone had a recording of that particular rap.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.145.19.48 (talk) 14:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  fat boy slim recording "Neal Cassady Starts Here" 

message: I would like to propose a footnote to Robert Hyatt Jr. in the children section to the following article:
"Neal Cassady's Denver Legacy Includes a Secret Son, Robert Hyatt"
https://www.westword.com/arts/neal-cassadys-denver-legacy-includes-a-secret-son-robert-hyatt-8769924
Published February 7, 2017 in Denver's Westword.
This article explains what Neal's son had to go through to find out who his biological father was. He did not learn that his father was Neal Cassady, beat icon, till 2011. He previously thought his biological father was just someone named Neal Cassady.  Mmele310 (talk) 03:02, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children 

message: That section is clumsy and reads like nutty hearsay. First off, Wolfe is the REAL source of the notion of ecstatic writing? Who calls him a 'sentimental' writer? He saw writing as a manic activity that should focus on joy. (K lost the latter part as he became more and more a run-of-the-mill drunk.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Codeslubber (talk • contribs) 18:16, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Who? Levi Asher. It's directly from the source, "His free-flowing letter writing style inspired the young Kerouac to break his ties to the sentimental style he'd picked up from Thomas Wolfe and invent his notion of 'spontaneous prose.'" If you have a counter assessment of this attribution and have a reliable source, please add it, but no personal analysis, synthesis, or original research. Links to help you get started are on your user talk page. JesseRafe (talk) 19:02, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Credit for Style Evolution 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:36, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: Shouldn’t Allen Ginsburg be listed as a partner?  Neal’s partners overlap with his marriages, so why wouldn’t Allen be listed too. Their relationship is well documented in On the Road. P Todd (talk) 16:00, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because Ginsberg is notable doesn't mean he should be included as a 'partner' of Cassady. That would mean that every person Cassady was engaged intimately with should necessarily be included. This is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid publication. That is just my opinion so it means little and I cannot point to any Wiki standard to support my opinion. THX1136 (talk) 02:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allen Ginsburg 

message: A big part of Cassady's influence comes from his raps at various acid tests in the mid-1960s, many of which are preserved on recordings on the Internet Archive.
For example: https://archive.org/details/gd67-11-10.sbd.sacks.1612.sbeok.shnf/gd67-11-10d1t09.shn
It seems that these should be listed as "published" work of his, as they are undoubtedly his best known works today. Thoughts? Msalt (talk) 04:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neal's raps at Acid Tests and/or Grateful Dead concerts