Talk:Musket

message: after 5 minutes... I came from "when where muskets in Korea, then Japan, then Portugal or China, then European" but all those pages and particularly this one which should be not a hub but a sub-hub; everything is all incohesive and needs to be updated or historically related.  So, I would first forget all your definitions of blunderbuss or arquetabus or Musket or Rifle (and other not mentioned) and Wiki should do what they do for seceding Kings, or Rulers, or Senators and have a thing at the bottom where it list them or you can click next or previous.  So while I just looking for aka googled "history of rifle in Korea" but that is not what I wanted... I wanted to know about the introduction of whatever it was and when...  Ok, spending another minute, I found PBS page on history of firearm and now know what rifling is and so what I rifle should be, but that isn't even referenced here on this page and people are arguing about such stuff like what is a arquebus and where does it fit and how is it related to A, B, C (so different firearms) or 1, 2, 3 (so different countries)
So, whatever "rifle" or perhaps "firearm" is more appropriate, everyone's talk is different because you're not on the same page and ultimately different pages are even worst and references are disparaging and incoherent.. Tymes (talk) 05:40, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major revision, review, edit needed  

message: I got rid of:
"When the rifle was invented in the West, the musket lost its status as the dominant weapon." because risles were i n use in early 1600's long before it became common as a battle weapon. 
I also put in about rifles in use in early 1600s warfare. 68.239.11.62 (talk) 09:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rifles. Jagers 

message: Actually musket-type guns were available to many non-Europeans in the Middle East and Asia as early as 1500s. It was the Middle Easterners that introduced firearms to Europe. The Mughals introduced musket-type firearms to India during their invasion nearly 500 years ago. The Ming had musket-type firearms as well. We need to correct this. Zachorious 20:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside Europe 

message: Where does that date come from? All the references I have seen say 16th century. --Brunnock 15:12, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
:Wondering the same. Earlier ones must have been arquebuses, confused with muskets. 85.157.2.152 11:13, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed it to 15th century, because the earliest date for a musket I can remember is 1502 and it is possible there were earlier muskets I assume the writer mistook the late 1400s for late 14th century. 82.135.92.153 16:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  14th century? 

message: According to this site:
:The value of breech-loading is the time saved in inserting the cartridge into the breech (the back end of the barrel) rather than down the muzzle. Experiments in this direction go back to the 17th century, when a breech-loading musket is produced in Italy (possibly invented in Florence by Michele Lorenzoni). Practical versions are later developed in Britain by Patrick Ferguson (in 1776) and in the United States by John Hall (in 1811).
Can anyone confirm this? - Ta bu shi da yu 03:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italy - the first designers of the Musket? 

message: According to WikiWatch (see above), the sentence "packed in a paper cartridge" is somewhat misleading as "only later ones were". Is this correct? If so, can we get it corrected? - Ta bu shi da yu 03:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "packed in a paper cartridge" 

message: As far as I have read Arquebus are not muskets but a earlier gun of their own. So I might change this. Zachorious 10:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try Arquebus. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:29, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Arquebus Are Muskets?

message: "At the time of the American Revolution, many British soldiers were outraged by the American colonist's use of rifles. They believed that since the Brown Bess musket had no sights, they were not responsible for the deaths of enemy soldiers. But riflemen, who selected a target and fixed the enemy soldier or officer in their sights were no better than murderers." 
I had never heard of this objection or outrage.  Have you a source?
I heard a lot about the rifles and muskets in the revolution but I have never heard about this. Did someone just make this up or is there a source?  Bunker fox 20:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moral objection to rifles? 

message: I rewrote this:
:"A musket is a muzzle-loaded, smoothbore long gun, which its user generally fires from the shoulder. The date of the origin of muskets remains unknown, but they are mentioned as early as the late 15th century, and they were primarily designed for use by infantry. Muskets became obsolete by the middle of the 19th century, as cartridge breechloading repeaters superseded them. Typical musket calibres ranged from .50 to .80 inches. Depending on the type and calibre, it could hit a man's torso at up to 200 yards, though it was only reliably accurate to about 100 yards. A soldier primarily armed with a musket had the designation of a musketman or of a musketeer."
I've already changed rifle to "cartridge breechloading repeaters", because I added this:
:"Improved with the introduction of rifling around 1800, muzzleloading rifled muskets (of the kind common in the American Civil War) became obsolete by the late 19th century"
and this:
:"the rifle musket, common on both sides in the U.S. Civil War, was accurate at twice that, and could easily kill a man at over a kilometer."
(To that, I'd add it could do the job through 10cm of pine, but I wasn't sure that much detail was really necessary.)
I also rewrote this:
:"Gustavus Adolphus pioneered the use of the volley or "salvo" as an offensive tactic for Swedish infantry in the Thirty Years' War."
to this:
:"Gustav II made two important changes. First, he simplifed and standardized reloading, then drilled his musketeers ceaslessly until they reload in action by reflex, without becoming distracted. (Recall the scene in the film "Glory".) Second, he pioneered the use of the volley or "salvo" as an offensive tactic for Swedish infantry in the Thirty Years' War."
I rely on Dyer's War & Dupuy's Evolution of Weapons & Warfare.  
Trekphiler 01:18 & 01:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Just shoot me? 

message: "The disadvantage of the early rifle for military use was its long reloading time and the tendency of rifling to get damaged when reloaded hurriedly."
:Over the life of a rifle, wear of the rifling would have degraded accuracy.  However, during the course of battle the real problem was that powder fouling would accumulate in the rifling making the piece harder to load with each shot, until finally the weapon couldn't be loaded anymore until the bore was wiped clean.  I have made an edit to reflect this.  Jmueller71 16:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obsolescence and replacement by the rifle 

message: I always thought that the Oda army used arquebuses instead of muskets? Is that right or wrong? All the sources I read (and I can't remember the names of the books so don't ask) stated that they used arquebuses. It would be good if someone could help sought this out
Bunker fox 20:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle Of Nagashino 

message: I can't believe that no one has done anything about this......muskets were used all over Eurasia. Outside Eurasia is more accurate. I'm going to change this section a bit. Zachorious 04:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside Eurasia Instead 

message: There seems to be a confusion on what the definition of a musket vs arquebuse is. While both terms are often treated differently, arquebuse are often treated as muskets. Both are smoothbore that use similar ammunition (and have similar actions). So the arquebuse can be considered a earlier form of a musket. And if muskets don't only include the later smoothbore firearms, then all earlier firearms with the same method of action including the first Chinese bamboo hand canon fits the description. Unless citated otherwise I am going to restore some mention of arquebuse as a musket. I am aware that the term musket is of European (French if I'm correct) origin.......but that linguistics doesn't change anything here. Zachorious 22:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musket vs Arquebuse 

message: The first paragraph, far from given a clear summary of the subject, is just plain confusing.  Some of that confusion has been noted in discussions above, but nothing's been resolved.  Dates of introduction, use and obsolescence are in conflict, smoothbore vs. rifled jumps about, and range and weight are disputed.
Usually, it's agreed that the arquebus preceded the musket, and the rifle followed it.  But it's not that simple.
Originally, the term "musket" was used for a heavy version of an arquebus.  Later, it appears that some muskets were the first to use the matchlock.  When the matchlock became more popular, the name migrated from referring to weight to referring to the firing mechanism.
Rifling was around for a long time before "the rifle".  At first, only hunting weapons used rifled grooves, because it took so long to load them.  With the minié ball and reliable percussion caps replacing flint sparkers, the "rifled musket" replaced the smoothbore musket, but was still usually still called a "musket".
In short, at least three very different weapons were all called muskets.
With excellent training, people could hit targets at 200 yds with smoothbore muskets.  Most soldiers weren't trained for range, and seldom fired at more than 50 yds.  But the same could be said for rifles; training matters far more than the weapon for range.
I'd fix the opening paragraph, but saying "it's all confusing" isn't much help.  Plus, this is all from my memory -- I don't have references at hand.  But maybe with these hints someone can start to improve things.
--A D Monroe III 01:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Enough sourced information has been added to the "development" section to allow me to try an clean up the intro.  Please review.  --A D Monroe III (talk) 19:11, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening paragraph is a mess 

message: Just a question about the commands used.  Were these the actual commands that were uttered in battle?  Or were these just for practice/training?  Also, how about the command "Make Ready"?  This command is used in movies.  Is it real?  If it is, does it warrant a mention in this section?  I'm guessing that the commands were not always the same (ie. Present vs. Take aim). Ace blazer (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual commands varied significantly.  Not only the terms used, but the steps themselves could be quite different.  Some drills has fewer, more general steps, some had more than twice as many, with every single motion called out.  --A D Monroe III (talk) 19:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loading and Firing Commands 

message: This article discounts as a modern myth the idea that bullets were bitten off of a paper cartridge. However, in the article on paper cartridge (and one or 2 other related articles I have come across but the titles of which escape me at the moment) has this as a standard practice. So what is it?Wschart (talk) 21:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  biting? 

message: At the first line it states: "A musket is a muzzle-loaded, smooth bore long gun"
somewhat further however, it states that the final muskets were equipped with "rifling". This is untrue, as it states that is was a smooth bore weapon. Rather, it think the writer meant that the bullets had a stabilising spin, which was done using the minié bullet; however the barrel itself was still smooth (not rifled). In the rifled musket article this same incorrection returns by making it sound like the minié ball required rifling of the barrel; this is not so, it was simply shot from a conventional smooth bore rifle. Please correct this, and also change the rifled musket page accordingly. It should be aligned with a rifled barrel article, or (even better), the rifled musket page is best moved to rifled barrel and a new article is made stabilising-spin balls incompassing the minié bullet.
Finally, perhaps it can be mentioned that muskets had the propellant mixture (gunpowder) and the metal ball seperated, and these needed to be introduced seperatly when loading the musket.
KVDP (talk) 11:01, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Incorrection

message: There is a gross misinterpretation of the source here. The source clearly states the ottomans adopted the matchlock after witnessing the hungarians using it. See here for the evidence.--Knight1993 (talk) 21:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ottomans using matchlocks 

message: Added some info on "muskets" based on smooth-bore conversions of modern rifle designs as used by police and military, such as the .410 Indian Police musket conversion of the MkIII Lee-Enfield rifle.
Cartridge info at http://www.municion.org/41/410Indian.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.152.206 (talk) 19:18, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern military/police "muskets" 

message: Using the term "Frizzen" to describe the plate of steel that sits atop the priming pan is incorrect. The proper 18th Century term is "Hammer" 
In addition, the object that holds the flint which strikes the steel is NOT the Hammer; it is called the COCK. Once we enter the age of the percussion cap, then it is called a hammer.
"Frizzen cover" is also an anachronism. Both Simes and Cuthbertson talk of "hammer stalls", being used as a safety device, but there is no mention of frizzens or frizzen covers in either text. The hammer can also be referred to as a "steel," but should never be called a frizzen.
Cuthbertson, Captain Bennett,  System for the Compleat Interior Management and Oeconomy of a Battalion of Infantry, Dublin, 1775 edition. 
Simes, Thomas, A Military Course for the Government and Conduct of a Battalion, London, 1777, 
Petersen, Harold L. Treasury of the Gun, Golden Press, New York, 1962 
http://www.nwta.com/couriers/5-96/parts.html
16:46, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frizzen or Hammer ? 

message: Appearantly, some (rifle) muskets fired their balls at subsonic speed (ie .75 Brown Bess, see
http://wn.com/Brown_Bess_Accuracy). However, I'm not sure whether as the caliber was reduced (to .577 and lower ) and as the shape of the ball was improved (to Minié ball), the ball was still subsonic. If it became supersonic over time, the loudness of the weapon being fired would have increased. The amount of loaded gunpowder also seems to have a huge impact on the sound levels, see http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-486573.html
91.182.35.167 (talk) 10:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Sound

message: Hey. Just by overlooking this article I'd say it totally misses its topic. It is mainly about handguns and arquebuses, not about muskets. This is especially true for Asia. However, I am not a native English speaker, but I do know someting about definitions of historical firearms as we use them on the European continent, e.g. in French and German. So maybe a native speaker WITH some knowledge about the official definitions can help me out here: According to continental terminology, muskets are 1. the heavy, long rifles which you have to use on a stick, as improvements of the lighter and shorter arquebuse, beginning EXCLUSIVELY in Europe during the mid of the 16th century; further muskets are 2. the historically following rifles. After the original forms became lighter and more and more practical, later every rifle (not shotgun) was called a musket until the first repeaters were developed, except from the shorter carbines that could be used on horses. According to this definition, there have never been muskets in Japan until 1866. The rifles they got from the Portuguese were arquebuses, and they didn't develop them any further for 250 years. Therefore most of the Asia section would have to get kicked out of this article, and in the rest of Asia and Europe sections it' d have to be seen: what is a musket, what an earlier handgun or arquebuse. If it's the latter, kick it out and replace the information in the relevant articles. What do others say, before I'd start with this? --JakobvS (talk) 06:43, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this article really about muskets? Doesn't the whole article has to be changed completely? 

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thread_title: File:Early matchlocks.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I have found a 1868 book in which is mentioned a 1504 French manuscript which uses the name "Mousquets" as part of a ship's cargo manifest .  I am doubtful of  the manuscripts' veracity .  My question is : Is the name "mousquet(s)" already in existence in that year ?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.3.138.21 (talk) 22:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the  name already in 1504 

message: The paragraph describing French tactics seems at odds with column (formation); the latter makes it seem as if the French intended to fight in a typical line formation but simply did not do so, and also makes mention of the Revolutionary War where the intent was to drive through the enemy lines (which seems more in keeping with how this article describes the French Napoleonic tactics). I'm not well-versed in this period; could someone take a look at both these articles and sort them out? 24.237.64.130 (talk) 05:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  French tactics 

message: :The British Army was the first army that fought in two ranks rather than three. This allowed the infantry soldier to fire his musket without the need for the front rank to kneel. Another British tactic was platoon fire. At the time a platoon was a half-company. The right-hand files of a company would form the first platoon and the left-hand files of that same company would form the second platoon. The platoon fire would begin at one of the flank platoons of the battalion or regiment, and one or two seconds after the platoon beside them fired, the next platoon would fire. The effect would be platoon volley after platoon volley rolling down the face of the battalion or regiment, and the result of such disciplined fire was a constant hail of bullets on the enemy formation.
This reads like the author completely misunderstood the Maurice-of-Nassau tactics. You should source these statements, because they make no sense whatsoever. Volleys were only fired when the enemy was charging, but otherwise they were using Maurice's tactics (see my other edits...), which by the way also destroys the enemy's fighting spirit and prevents charging (because nobody would run into a "wall of bullets" being fired every ten seconds or so). --178.197.228.81 (talk) 22:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for probably wrong statements needed 

message: "it was complained that it took a man's weight in lead musket balls to kill him" 
-> This is a quote often cited, however, a misleading one. It it not as revealing about the musket itself as it is about battlefield-conditions. Comparisons between shootings tests and bettlefield-performances show that theoretically, muskets weren't nearly as inaccurate as they are often said to be. 
That being said: In modern wars, too, it takes "a man's weight" in ammo to kill someone. Not because weapons are inaccurate, but due to battlefield-conditions and high firing rates. In other words: A quote like that isn't telling us very much.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 
178.11.32.214 (talk) 10:05, 5 February 2015‎ (UTC) 
:This article is about the musket, including how it was used, effectively or otherwise.  Yes, it may take even more shots today, but the fact meant a lot more then, before mechanized transport.  Plus this fact was more critical, because there was an actual (theoretical) alternative; musketeers were being compared to archers.  It tells us people had complaints about the use of musketeers; I think that's good to know.  --A D Monroe III (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Misleading quote

message: Ming dynasty Ottoman musket
https://twitter.com/OttomanArchive/status/620257161642385408
https://twitter.com/alprn_oky/status/673517162615734275
Just need to cut off the bottom with the modern Turkish text. Otherwise the image itself is in public domain since it was created during the Ming dynasty.Rajmaan (talk) 08:12, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Ming dynasty Ottoman musket illustration which is in Public Domain and can be uploaded to commons

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: What was the flintlock on a musket between 1250-1700 Diegochelsea19 (talk) 09:47, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Try Flintlock Andy Dingley (talk) 10:30, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  muskets 1250-1700 

message: Volleys and countermarch existed before the musket was invented: it was how crossbows operated.
The drawing of the two men is from De Gheyn's individual drill book, made in 1597, published about a decade later and copied many times over. Most can be found on the site of the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam: www.rijksmuseum.nl .
Drill is entirely different from practice or exercise. Where practice and exercise only aim to master a skill, drill aims to make it a reflex. Practice and exercise were promoted by most writers of manuals, Eguiluz is but one of many. Drill was introduced in the post-medieval world by Maurice of Nassau in the mid 1590s (the word 'drill' actually originated from onlookers trying to describe what they saw his soldiers do: going around and around in circles, without any particular goal or aim). He also developed the standard two-part commands that go along with drill as-we-know-it: many are still used today (Forward March, About Face, etc). Make Ready and the others are part of that set of 40+ commands. He was also the first to organize an army into battalions and those in two to three lines, and the first one to split the shot of a battalion into platoons to create an early form of platoon fire (he was also the first to introduce purpose built battalion guns and dedicated skirmishers regiments, but that's another topic). His methods were put into practice from the late 1590s in the Dutch army and used by it in its many battles. His successes attracted a lot of attention from other commanders and leaders. During the 17th century his methods were copied all over Europe, Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus included, who was actually taught my Maurice's cousin (actually GA changed the formations designed by Maurice into a kind of line-block hybrid later called "the Swedish brigade" that didn't work at all). More info about drill in "Dutch Armies of the 80 Year's War 1568-1648", volumes 1 & 2.
I suppose Drill needs its own page to link to.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.166.148.149 (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volleys, countermarch, drill and drawings 

message: "(Undid revision 920999264 by TooLRF (talk) removal of Willbanks source and addition of Asia source which has no relevance to Asia section)"
What? I didn't change anything in the Asia section.TooLRF (talk) 23:29, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the reason for canceling my editing? 

message: "As muskets became the default weapon of armies, the slow reloading time became an increasing problem. The difficulty of reloading—and thus the time needed to do it—was diminished by making the musket ball much smaller than the internal diameter of the barrel, so as the interior of the barrel became dirty from soot from previously fired rounds, the musket ball from the next shot could still be easily rammed. In order to keep the ball in place once the weapon was loaded, it would be partially wrapped in a small piece of cloth.[62] However, the smaller ball could move within the barrel as the musket was fired, decreasing the accuracy of musket fire[63] (it was complained that it took a man's weight in lead musket balls to kill him).[64] The only way to make musket fire effective was to mass large numbers of musketmen and have them fire at the same time. The tradeoff between reloading speed and accuracy of fire continued until the invention of the Minié ball."
That statement is wrong. The army increased several times in the 19-20 centuries, despite the fact that there were no more muskets. Obviously, there is no correlation between the size of the army and the weapons. 
In addition, small groups of well-trained musketeers showed very high efficiency.  For example, Rogers' Rangers. Having a good position protected from fire, a small squad of musketeers could have broken an army - Battle of Carillon
When faced with backward peoples, armed bows and spears, the Musketeers always exterminated them - Battle of Blood River TooLRF (talk) 00:11, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  More armies because of the musket? Really? 

message: Can somebody show me the source for this claim? Otherwise I'll delete it DMKR2005 (talk) 00:33, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish inventions category? 

message: rifled musket - hybrid between a musket and a rifle; conversion of a musket by cutting shallow grooves in existing stocks of muskets.  It gave some spin and improved range while retaining the speed of reloading. 185.18.61.199 (talk) 10:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: We have an article on Rifled musket, which is linked in this article.  Is there a specific change you are suggesting?  --A D Monroe III(talk)  22:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern usage 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The wikipedia entry about gunpowder empires says: “The musket later appeared in the Ottoman Empire by 1465.[23]” the source cited is: 
Ayalon, David (2013). Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to Medieval Society (1956). Routledge. p. 126. ISBN 9781136277320 85.148.38.245 (talk) 15:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muskets existed in the 15th century.