Talk:Aram Khachaturian

message: I am being threatened with 'blocking' by one 'Serouj' -- who has now even *deleted* a *properly sourced* reference I provided that happens to contradict his personal ethnic-nationalist fantasies. What I am 'guilty of' is the mere attempt to construct a lede paragraph that makes it straightforwardly clear that Khatchaturian was actually born in Georgia, not Armenia, and was thus 'administratively' Georgian by birth (and later 'Soviet-Georgian'), even if he was ethnically and culturally Armenian. 
I can easily see why the Armenian nationalist lobby wants to make Khatchaturian 'Soviet-Armenian'; but I insist that it is not wikipedia's job to pander to ethnic-nationalist pressure-groups in this way. I believe 'Serouj' -- an Armenian with a history of aggressively pro-Armenian edits and postings -- is treating me in an unfair way in the interests of his political agenda. Pfistermeister (talk) 01:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, there is a very lengthy debate two sections up about this.  Khachaturian in no way was Georgian.  He was Armenian by birth and lived most of his life in Moscow.  The only reason he was born in Tiflis was that Tiflis was the cultural center of Armenian culture at the time.  Indeed, Tiflis was a cosmopolitan city with many different cultures (indeed, in 1897, there were more Armenians in Tiflis than Georgians.  This quote is from the Tbilisi article itself - "Throughout the century, the political, economic and cultural role of Tbilisi with its ethnic, confessional and cultural diversity (Armenians, Georgians and Russians comprised 38.1, 26.3 and 24.8 percent of the population respectively in 1897[4]) was significant not only for Georgia but for the whole Caucasus.". :Again, the fact that Khachaturian was born in Tiflis neither makes him Russian nor Georgian!  Lastly, Tiflis at that time was part of the Russian Empire -- no state of Georgia existed at the time.  Sorry that these facts don't appease your particular view point.  Serouj (talk) 01:28, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edits are rather ridiculous.  I believe that it is you who is the nationalist between us, as Khachaturian isn't even CLOSE to being a Georgian!  Please move on to something more productive like improving the Tbilisi article, as you have absolutely no case here. Serouj (talk) 01:32, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Pfister doth protest too much. He was Armenian, Pfister. Sorry if that fact disappoints you. TA-ME (talk) 02:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Pfistermeister's remarks are false to say at least and they actually provoke national tensions. While the Soviet Union was still in place we all had same citizenship, yet we all were ethnically distinct. Ethnic Armenians are born anywhere: be it Lebanon, France, Russia or Georgia. That does not make us Lebanese, French, Russian or Georgian. Unfortunately, the tendency to usurp Armenian heritage and culture is a recent trend among her neighbors. Recent attempts to annex Armenian Church of Norashen in Tbilisi serve as an example of this system of stealing! And now Aram Khatchaturian! Who's going to claimed as a "Georgian" next? Needless to remind you that Armenians played key role in Tbilisi over the course of many centuries. Do not be ignorant and do not use Wikipedia for political purpose. Avetik (talk) 03:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Pity to see how 3 Armenian are mocking at the only person who is trying to be objective. Khachaturian was never a citizen of Armenia, nor of Armenian Republic within USSR (for he lived in Moscow his whole life long), so technically he is NOT Armenian. As regards etnicity, it is already very well emphasized in the opening of the article by mentioning he was born in the Armenian family, there is no way and need to emphasize it even more, that's the usual practive of English Wikipedia, which is not a soapbox. Alaudo (talk) 08:50, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You can count four now. I hope you realize the nonsensical nature of the remarks you made above.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

text: There is absolutely 0% objectivity in Pfistermeister's outrageous edit. There is 100% nationalistic provocation. And you know it, don't you? Avetik (talk) 18:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

text: It might also be helpful to direct the attention of the editors here to the rather farcical "discussion" that took place on the Tigran Petrosian talk page last year, here. Having come to the consensus that Petrosian was indeed an Armenian, albeit from the USSR, one of the editors felt it compulsory to add the superfluous and, frankly, asinine remark that "Western publications described Petrosian as an Armenian." Nationalism indeed.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that this discussion got out of hand, as could have been expected. I just like to refer to my opening remarks in the section "How Armenian was K.". My main point is that appropriating K. as 'Armenian' carries the suggestion that his genius is a matter of ethnicity rather than of individuality. I have seen no demonstrations of Armenian (rather than Russian or generic Caucasian) qualities in his music, here or anywhere else. I've described how K. was branded ethnic for Sovjet political reasons and that K. was well advised to play the part. It is understandable that Armenians are proud of the affiliation with Khatchaturian, which explains the google counts referred to above, but if you look into it, it still very much looks like a myth. Having said that, I'm OK with the present phrasing, noting that this is the current consensus. But I also feel that nationality is an administrative issue, and user Pfistermeister was treated unfairly when he raised the point of K's passport. Zwart (talk) 19:18, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality 

message: Should we make a page similar to other composers that has all of his compositions to avoid taking up space on the main Khachaturian article? --Chrismiceli (talk) 21:22, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a bad idea. Feel free to go about it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 22:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done this, I feel the section that links to the main article could use some expansion. --Chrismiceli (talk) 16:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of compositions by Aram Khachaturian 

message: This section of the article seems to me very POV and questionable in its assumption; it's one thing to recognise that Khachaturian to a degree benefited from the Soviet Union's "championship" of ethnic minorities (within the strictures and distortions of Stalinist cultural policies), but quite another to claim he was working for the regime rather than for his colleagues (a significant distinction which helps explain why he fell from official favour in 1948). Further, the section has next to no citations to back its claims about Khachaturian's alleged loyalty to the regime. I propose merging matters of fact from this section into the "Life" section of the article, unless anyone can provide concrete evidence that Khachaturian was doing anything more than "rendering unto Caesar" in his supposed allegiance to communism. Alfietucker (talk) 00:00, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Khachaturian and communism" 

message: The tweak made regarding the degree of popularity enjoyed by K's Masquerade Suite highlights the fact (for me, at least) that Wikipedia is an international website, and what is true of a work's popularity in one country may not be quite so true in another. I don't think Masquerade, as fine a suite as it is, can be described today as "extremely" popular in either the UK or the USA - certainly not in relation to such works as Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, or even Holst's The Planets. For this reason I am reverting this to "relatively", and if anyone feels this does the work less than justice then I would urge them to consider specifying exactly where/amongst which audience the work is "extremely" popular. Alfietucker (talk) 13:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relatively/extremely popular 

message: This is more to do with spelling that pronounciation, but I have added a dubious tag against the claim that his name "was transformed into Khachaturian in Russian". It is well known that the "yan" ending that is seen at the end of most Armenian surnames in modern Armenia arose as a result of Russian influence - the difficulty of transcribing "ian" into Cyrillic letters. The "ian" ending is the traditional way that the ending on Armenian names have been rendered in Western European languages. I realise that what may be intended is an explanation of how Khachatrian/Khachatryan became "Khachaturian" - but if so the explanation is missleading because it inplies that "yan" is correct and Armenian - and that "ian" is not, whereas thereverse is true: it is actually "ian" which is historically more correct with "yan" a recent arival due to Russian influences.Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:13, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Would this be OK? Change "It was transformed into Khachaturian in Russian" to "It was transformed into Khachaturyan in Russian" and then put "(and thereafter adopted by English-language sources and rendered as Khachaturian)". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian name transliteration 

message: No mention of this at all... I'm guessing he would have spoken Russian, Armenian and Georgian? 86.148.66.208 (talk) 19:39, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: He spoke Russian and Armenian fluently, probably knew (some) Georgian, though I'm not sure he spoke it fluently since many Georgian Armenians simply don't learn that language, especially back then when Georgia was part of Russia and Russian was lingua franca. --Երևանցի talk  05:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  What languages did he speak fluently? What was his first language? 

message: I have just removed a quote by Norman Lebrecht since he is not an authority on Khachaturian, and his quote about Khachaturian's "only crime" was totally wrong/beside the point. Please note that Lebrecht is a journalist (not a musicologist of any description), who sometimes (very occasionally if dealing with a Western European artist, rather less often otherwise) gets his facts right. What he writes, though, is scarcely if ever based on primary research of any kind, so he is - at best - a dodgy tertiary source which is quite inappropriate for this article. Please could anything sourced to his writing be double-checked and more factually reliable sources found to support them. Alfietucker (talk) 08:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your assessment. It's best to refrain from citing not very authoritative authors. --Երևանցի talk  04:14, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norman Lebrecht 

message: Is there any consensus to add an info-box? Is this over-ruled or prohibited by the GA status of the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't matter either way in terms of the GA status. If there is a consensus for an infobox, then it should be added.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying. I would have no objection to one being added. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

text: By the way, neither Prokofiev's nor Shostakovich's article has one. --Երևանցի talk  16:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw your advice in your edit summary, thanks. That's why I opened this discussion thread. Are you one of the "we"? This isn't Prokofiev's nor Shostakovich's article, is it? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really mind. Just pointing out what Wikipedia guidelines say and what other (comparable) articles follow. --Երևանցի talk  16:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. The problem with the "consistency argument" is that it undermines a decision being made purely for this article on this Talk Page. As long as most composers have no info-box, "consistency" dictates that no more should have one. One has to tread carefully in this area. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The i word 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The claim he was taught composition by Glière does not appear to be borne out by either of the biographies of Khachaturian by Shneerson or by Victor Yuzefovich. In the absence of any citation for this claim, I have deleted it. Alfietucker (talk) 13:04, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glière 

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