Talk:Amiga virtual machine

message: My dear editor friends, we have a dispute to resolve.
It seems that we three only had taken care of this argument AVM. Other people prefer not commenting it.
This page has stated during Voting for Deletion it has not to be deleted but to be merged into 68k article.
It has been removed the Request for Undeletion, because infact AVM article it has been not decided for deletion.
But merging with 68K is a mistake and sure I can't merge this article into 68k. Else I will commit a false, and I don't want to.
Amiga Anywhere and ABOX have nothing in common with 68k code.
Just Amithlon while booting it starts an environment in which 68K code runs natively and ABOX has both built-in 68K code interpreter as long with PPC Amiga WarpUP interpreter (WarpUP is PPC Amiga executable fileformat for the Amiga classic subsystem running on CPU expansion card qith PPC 601 and 603e processor).
It seems to me that: LjL he said that it could be started Amiga Anywhere article.
He said there is no virtual machine that it could be considered Amiga Machine he also said I created a neologism.
I don't understood Mdwh position if he want article deleted at all, or just condsidered AVM as not correct at all and the arguments have to be dropped.
To both of you editors I remember that AVM is NOT a neologism. It is commonly used amongst amigans, but evidenceds I had bringing seems not convince you both.
But sure AVM is no a neologism. It is just a CATEGORY name which groups in a summary some brief informations about various objects with common characteristics.
The three existing Amiga VM (note that I just drop the fourth, Petunia, because has different characteristics which brings it into some sort of emulator like multi-purpose program) it is far more pratical that all three these arguments should have a common article which LISTS all the three virtual environments here in ONE article with AVM name.
It is just necessary because of reasons of logical order and search purposes by users of Wikipedia.
It could be that users searching for any kind of virtual machines want to access that data. 
So there they can find just a summary of the three amiga VM. Else ifthey want refine their search only if they want to, by clicking on a single Virtual environment link and seek for its complete article.
(Example: it is just as Music ->Folk Music or Classical or Rock Music, then searching for Rock Music->Hard Rock.
At this point the user could refine the search in Hard Rock or decide other choices.
With AVM article existing the user could make these choices: Computer->Amiga->AVM->Amiga Anywhere or Computer->Virtual Machine->Amiga Virtual Machine, etc.)
This is my point of view. I will send a copy of it to both of you to define this dispute.
If we could find an agreement as Wikipedia advices as a first step of dispute resolving, then it will be fine to me.
If not, then sure we three had had follow all the steps for a friendly resolution and in the end I could start a Request for Comment, as long it has been decided this article could not be undeleted, just because the fact it has never been deleted.
Sincerely,--Raffaele Megabyte 01:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute resolving with LjL, Mdwh and me 

message: * "AVM" and "Amiga Virtual Machine" (though most instances of the capitals have now been lowercased) are unattested terms, i.e. neologism, i.e. - among other things - original research. Amiga Inc. never called Amiga Anywhere an "AVM", nor did the WinUAE or WinFellow creators term their emulators "AVM"s, nor did the community do so (try a search for "amiga virtual machine", with quotes, on Google).
* While Amiga Anywhere and Amiga emulators have in common the fact of being somehow Amiga-related, keeping them "under the same roof" is unjustified, as they're completely different subjects, which are simply under the same brand name. There is an Amiga emulation article, that should probably be expanded, where one can write about Amiga (Motorola 680x0, "classic", and all of that) emulation; and there should be a separate Amiga Anywhere article, as well.
* Detailed information about the Motorola 68000 (or more broadly, Motorola 680x0) instruction set belong to the respective article(s).
* This whole article implies some sort of agenda to equate various Amiga-related topics to the Java virtual machine, for some reason that escapes me. It's impregnated with some very peculiar POV, and I find it is in effect, for all intents and purposes, a POV fork of Amiga emulation.
* I completely disagree about the idea that Amiga emulation should be kept for gaming-related information while Amiga virtual machine should contain "serious" stuff. This would be a totally arbitrary and baseless distinction; besides, Amiga emulation isn't nearly as big as to need splitting.
* Obviously, some editors are trying to promote the term "AVM" on its own merit, while this term, as said, is a neologism (worse than that - it just doesn't exist outside Wikipedia). See AVM, which has been edited to include Amiga virtual machine among its links (later removed by me). There's some WP:POINT and/or WP:NOR here (i.e. agenda).
LjL 18:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with all of the above. To expand on your point "Obviously, some editors are trying to promote...", I also removed the following bizarre statement from Team Chaos: "Eventually with the advent of modern AVMs in the late 1990s these games were ported to all major computing platforms...", and on Total Chaos, the platform was listed not just as Amiga, but also Amiga virtual machine. I mean, are we going to change every single reference of "Amiga" to "Amiga or a machine with an AVM"?! Mdwh 23:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, the article has now been created on the Italian Wikipedia as well, and its entry added to the disambiguation page for AVM. I'm really going to virtually bang my head onto a virtual wall. Honestly, I feel very strongly that there's some weird agenda/propaganda (i.e. strong POVness) going on, but I don't quite understand what it is. Pro-Amiga? Anti-Amiga? Anti-Java? Pro-virtual-machines? Just plain weirdness? LjL 23:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly it's all an attempt to be pro-Total Chaos and pro-Team Chaos, so they can say it's been "ported" to all major platforms(!) But yeah, other than that it seemed pro-Amiga to me, trying to make the various emulators sound better in some way. Mdwh 14:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge/split and redirect/delete 

message: There where some requests days ago to delete this article.
*Keep I'll show you why This invoice in wikipedia should be to stay.
Amiga EMULATION = a program to emulate the Amiga by emulating the response to code of 68000 CPU by Motorola AND the behaviour of Chipset of Amiga.
Example: Original UAE (which has no JIT Virtual machine at all, while WinUAE has a Motorola 68000 Just In Time Virtual machine built in). It emulates code 68000, and emulates also Paula, Agnus and Denise chips (Graphic chip, Sound chip, Memory and I/O chip).
And from opposite:
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = a base of abstraction layers capable to run programs created to accomplish Amiga standards and created with Amiga SDK to run then on a series of different hardware machines.
Also as stand-alone commercial product (so it will deserve a voice of its own).
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = commercial product such as Amiga Anywhere.
Es.: It is a sort of virtual machine to provide an ABSTRACTION LAYER running on top of TAO/ELATE INTENT OS.
It is not in any way connected to Amiga products, but it is capable to run with very low hardware resources, and it provides an universal abstraction layer of its own, running programs created with Amiga SDK giving them the opportunity to run with same aspect, despite of the platform that hosts it.
This gives Amiga Anywhere a close resemblance as Java, without the problem to write from scratch any VM on any different platforms as it happens with Java.
Also as another way to implement such a virtual machine:
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = an emulation of Amiga API to let run Amiga programs in an environment which is different from that of origin without providing standard emulation of all hardware.
Example: Trance Virtual Machine running on MorphOS which is a completely different OS, and it is based on PPC systems and on a Quark Microkernel different from standard Amiga Kernel (Exec).
Trance is a bonus program deep running into MorphOS core, and it is capable to interpretate on the fly programs of Classic (old) Amigas which required old Motorola 68000 CPU, but it DOES NOT emulate the original chipset of Amiga, so it COULD NOT be considered an emulator (at least it is a very structured Amiga API emulator which hosts also a 68000 code emulator).
But it is really a Virtual Machine because it provides Amiga programs an entire SANDBOX, and a sort of abstraction layer which allows Amiga Programs to make use of the hardware of Pegasos II line of computer on which MorphOS is the native standard OS.
Also
 
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = Petunia Virtual Machine present into AmigaOS 4.0 as "API emulator" and barely similar in behaviour as Trance into MorphOS.
As its opponent Trance, it is also capable to run on the fly Classic Amiga software.
Also
Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = the core of Amithlon emulator.
Amithlon it is a very amazing emulator. It provides an abstraction layer capable to run Amiga related programs thru standard PC hardware, allowing the original Amiga OS and its programs to use standard graphic cards of PC, standard audio, standard LAN ports, etc.
It does not run on top of other OSes, such as Windows or Linux, but it uses Linux code to boot and  Linux also provides a sort of environment which is reckognized as a PC OS by the hardware, but it runs no Linux OS.     
So we have at least 4 different products, and 3 different ideas of what does it means an Amiga virtual machines all built in different ways: Amithlon, Amiga DE/Amiga Anywhere, Petunia, and Trance which accomplish to create an ENTIRE FAMILY of Amiga Virtual Machines.
Amithlon creates an environment in which an Amiga standard OS can run on standard PC hardware. It provides the feature to run standard Amiga programs built for M68000 and mainly which could have full access to PC peripeherals as it could be Amiga hardware and Amiga peripherals.
Amiga Anywhere it is an abstracion layer for Amiga to run completely new Amiga programs and that is built from the beginning as standard Amiga software. As Java it runs universally on any compatible hardware situation.
Trance and Petunia are abstraction layers on which to run standard Amiga API and also are capable to run code for 68000, interpreting it on the fly. Trance also provides a sandbox in which all Amiga environment it is closed and stay separate from the rest of the MorphOS OS.
  
This is why the invoice was created. This is absolutely the reason that requires such an invoice to keep stay into Wikipedia.
This is why I ask moderators to not consider any past, any present an any further request to delete it.
With respect,
--Raffaele Megabyte 22:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But the only other type of Amiga virtual machine would go into a new article, Amiga Anywhere, so that solves that problem. Why should we have one article covering two entirely different pieces of software? At best, this should be a disambiguation page which links to the other articles. Mdwh 11:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Raffaele Megabyte|Raffaele Megabyte]]'s comments on this article's [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Amiga_virtual_machine|AFD page]] 

message: Petunia: There is nothing to split in a new article regarding Amiga OS 4.0
Here we are talking of Petunia as a virtual machine and give some techinical specifications for it that it could help any reader to know more about it, and also it must be kept here because here it is in comparison with others Amiga VM.
A-BOX: there is already a little line about ABOX in MorphOS article, explaining it exists.
Sure it could be improved, but here in AVM we are talking about ABOX as one of the Virtual Machines into world of Amiga phenomena, and mainly about how it works, as in comparison with others Amiga VM.
Ciao,
--Raffaele Megabyte 04:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To split or not to split topics 

message: You know that I was (and am) mostly against the existence of this article.
However, the article is clearly going to stay as a "no consensus" or "keep" decision will be taken.
Given this, my plea is to at least avoid partisanism and especially neologism: as I've stated a few times now, the word "AVM" doesn't exist, nor does "Amiga Virual Machine" as a term of its own.
Of course, you can have an "Amiga" "virtual machine" (i.e. a virtual machine somehow related to Amiga, or that execute some kind of Amiga programs) -- it's just that the term as a whole simply doesn't exist, so, please, try to avoid sending the message that it does.
This basically means:
* avoid using the term AVM in the article. Write "Amiga virtual machine", or just "virtual machine" or "VM" (which is a very well attested term) when the context is clear -- and I bet it usually is, since the article talks about Amiga
* avoid capitalizing "Virtual Machine" and write "virtual machine". It's not a proper noun. "Amiga Virtual Machine" would be correctly capitalized if something specific (i.e. a given product) called "Amiga Virtual Machine" existed, but it doesn't
* don't add links to this article to the AVM disambiguation page, for obvious reasons; otherwise, by the same token, one could add -- say -- "Long Toothed Shark" (I made this up) under the LTS disambiguation page, which is obviously absurd
* generally drop any agenda and make this a decent (if a bit useless in my opinion, but that's another matter) neutral article; in other words, don't sneak weasel sentences in that, while technically complying with the points I made above, you perfectly know to be biased. I would start by removing the reference to "write once run anywhere", or at least make it very clear that it's just a byproduct of things that have happened in the more or less recent past (emulators/VMs/compatibility layers/whatever), and not an original goal of the Amiga system (though definitely a goal of Amiga Anywhere).
I hope this is met as a reasonable practical framework to avoid turning this Wikipedia article into a tool to promote novel terms of novel acceptions of existing terms, or into original research.
LjL 16:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avoid neologisms 

message: This page redirects to Motorola 680x0 after this AFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD debate link 

message: This is a deletion hidden by redirect!
1) The Ask for deletion was inconsistent.
It has been proven by testimony links and by article itself that there are at least 4 Amiga Virtual machines: Petunia from AmigaOS 4.0, ABOX from MorphOS, Amithlon commercial product, Amiga Anywhere commercial product.
2) There is nothing related in the article about Amiga Virtual machines which justify the redirection to 68000 except the fact that 2 AVM made use (as a bonus) associated interpreters of code 68000 as a JIT (Just In Time code interpreter).
Amiga Vm are mainly Amiga HAL Hardware Abstracion Layers between Amiga environment and the rest of the hardware.
This articles deals mainly about Amiga API, and AMIGA API it is unrelated to any 68000 dependence or legacy. 
3) ABOX has two code interpreters built in: the one for M68000 code, the second for PowerPC PPC603e.
Should we consider to redirect full Amiga Virtula Machine article to PPC Architecture article instead than 68k article?
4) Amiga Anywhere AVM for example has nothing related with 68000.
So nothing has to be merged or redirected in 68k article.
5) during voting the main reasons to delete article by its detractors is related to a certain ignorance about Amiga and its technical features.
Many of these people are completely un-aware about the evolution of Amiga because they know nothing of this platform, nor the fact it is still on the market neither about its continuing developing of new solutions and emerging new phenomena.
6) Reasons for Deletion were mainly (as clearly shown) by people who demonstrated hatred versus Amiga platform.  
7) Abuse: During votations for deletion/keep there were censorshipped the reasons why to keep the article.
These reasons were strongly documented and well written, while some flamebaits by persons who have personal hatred versus Amiga there were left to stay available to the public reading.
(see history of the vote discussion related entry here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_16
)
- Also these flamebaits were attested as quite normal reason to delete. 
How strange.
- Also Testimony why to keep AVM article and an ENTIRE LIST OF LINKS which attested there are many occurrences in internet of AVM related terms were censorshipped.
8) Only last words of the testimony were leave available to public.
Results of this operation of censorship are some truncated prhrases.
This fact may let it believe from the point of view of any common reader that the author of testimony was insane or something.
Conclusions:
This facts, i.e. the substantial inconsistence of the Request for Deletion, the presence of evident flamebaits, an evident abuse of censorship, obiviously keep prevent other readers to judge with equity.
Also the article couldn't be redirected on 68K page, because three AVM have nothing in common with Motorola 68000 except the fact they made use of bundled Code Interpreter of 68000 as a simple bonus.
- ABOX main internal interpreter engine has PPC code interpreter (no 68000)
- Amiga Anywhere has no 68000 emulation bonus at all.
Here it is all about my points.
This is why I decided to ask it will be open an Undeletion Review.
Sincerely
--Raffaele Megabyte 13:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PROTEST & ASK FOR UNDELETION 

message: After having reading carefully Petunia site I no longer consider it as a virtual machine. Seems it is just a very peculiar form of emulator.
With respect,
--Raffaele Megabyte 01:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Petunia is not a virtual machine 

message: I have to say, I haven't ever looked this up on Wikipedia before.  I remembered that I'd heard about Amiga Inc (or somebody) developing a VM based system that would be able to run on top of other OSs -- much like Java and .NET.  There was definite talk of there being a bytecode -- I wanted to look it up because the design of it was quite different to the stack based Java and .NET (from what I remember).  I certainly wasn't expecting to be redirected to 68000, which is completely unrelated.
Obviously introducing Amiga emulation into the equation would confuse the issue, this is completely unrelated to the field of emulating legacy hardware.  It was a new VM, with a new instruction set, and would run on non-Amiga OSs.  (As far as I recall.)  At least an article saying what it was, however vague, would point people in the right direction.  (It could even redirect to the real name for the product, which I seem to be getting the impression is Amiga Anywhere?) --Etoastw 22:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No one appears to have written anything on Wikipedia for Amiga Anywhere. Note that this article was redirected because it grouped together a whole load of different concepts under the term "Amiga virtual machine", which is simply not a name ever used to describe such things (at least, not in any notable sense). There was a little bit about Amiga Anywhere  - maybe that section could be ressurrected as a new article Amiga Anywhere? Mdwh 22:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Feel free to redirect it.--Anss123 (talk) 20:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The redirect to 68000 is wrong