Talk:Tory

message: Question about definition: 
The Wikipedia article apparently defines "Tory" simply as "Conservative".
In the July 1953 Atlantic Monthly article "Can the Liberals Rally?", 
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/53jul/clark.htm 
Author Joseph S. Clark, Jr. writes, "A liberal is not an intelligent Tory, one who gives little to save much. Neither Winston Churchill nor Senator Taft is a liberal." 
To say "a liberal is not a conservative" is hardly enlightening (both in 1953 and now, I think). What nuance is Clark talking about here that I'm not catching?
----
I wanted to describe how following the collapse of Brian Mulroney's coalition many Blue Tory's (especially in the West) moved to the Reform Party, and many Red Tory's have since aligned with the Liberal Party - but I'm not sure if those who moved to the BQ would be Blue or Red? They were (extreme) decentralists, which makes me think Blue, but many are very socially liberal, which makes me think Red. -- stewacide 23:20, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, my spelling sucks, but that doesn't answer my question. -- stewacide 02:01, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

text: Don't be silly folks. The etymology of the word is well established. Its 1688 and all that. Jdorney 18:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about definition 

message: Who wrote this steaming pile of crap?
 With the replacement of a German house on the throne,
 the stridently Protestant Yankee partisans became Tories.
The re-placement?? To focus only on the American side: John Adams of Massachusetts, 2nd President of the US, was a Yankee Congregationalist. He was very much of that Independent line of which another flower was that British brewer, Oliver Cromwell. Oliver himself, before his Parliamentary career, considered emigration to America. The King on the throne at the time was James Stuart.
The Independents suffered under all kings, but especially Stuarts: the whiff of Catholicism about that House always drove the Independents a bit insane.
 This sentiment extended to the War of 1812 fever (see Hartford Convention),
 with Yankee President John Adams supporting the UK and Southron President
 Thomas Jefferson supporting the French Empire, a Reactionary (Catholic)
 government in comparison to the establishment of a Lutheran family in Britain.
Somercet 01:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To focus only on the American side 

message: During the Glorious Revolution of the 17th century, they were called "the faction to be known someday as Tories," I suppose?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.88.113.150 (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "coined in the 18th century" 

message: The article states that the term "Tory" is used to refer to Conservatives in some English-speaking countries.  Are there any countries, other than the UK and Canada, where parties have been called Tory?  Otherwise the article should specify these two countries.  --The Four Deuces (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some English-speaking Countries 

message: Toryism stems from history and particular national circumstances but more to the point is a set of ideas, attitudes, world views, and style, than the history or current circumstances or fueds. The article totally missed that. 
four tildes (WKRob (talk) 08:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing the point 

message: it was a party  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.87.11 (talk) 00:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tory 

message: Under 'UK' 'Tory is the most common colloquial derogatory term for members and supporters of the Conservative Party.' Out of interest what is the most common derogatory term for members and supporters of the Labour Party? Twobells (talk) 19:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tory is a nickname, not a derogatory term. john k (talk) 05:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: ...it is most prominent in Great Britain..
Does this genuinely mean the Island or does in actually mean the Kingdom ie the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen Ireland?  Clarify, anyone.  Jubilee♫clipman 03:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Great Britain

message: "Southron?" You've got a Confederate diehard (ha ha!) around here, somewhere; they're the only ones who use that term. Thomas Jefferson was hardly pro-Catholic, -Bourbon, -Hanover or -Stuart. He was a self-proclaimed son of the Enlightenment and hated kings, popes and Jesuits. Before 1787 in France, Jefferson supported France as a balance to Great Britain. By 1812, he was fervently pro-Revolutionary and thought Napoleon a necessary evil to the establishment of the new regime of Man. I am changing this.
I deleted the following text:
:On November 31 in an interview with radio personality Michael Savage, American Noir Author James Ellroy acknowledged he was a Tory. 
:Elroy responded to Savage by stating, "we are a dying breed."'
It's unclearly phrased, unattributed, and refers to a non-existent date without a year.  I'm not certain how relevant it is even if all the problems can be fixed. RandyKaelber (talk) 01:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southron 

message: Is this section intended to be expanded with explanations for each subtitle?  Or are these here just to show what they were?  If the latter, should they not simply be bullet points and near the top rather than subtitles?
om,jhbkjhjkhnjhjbjhghjhj  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.125.117.247 (talk) 01:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Three core principles

message: I've removed the following phrase from the section on modern usage in the UK:
: sometimes but by no means always as a term of abuse
In my experience in England the term is neutral and is quite often used by Tories to describe themselves.  If we're going to say it's quite often used as a term of abuse we probably need a good source. --TS 00:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Abuse

message: "There is no reasonable authority for the belief that the term derives from Tory Island in the north west of Ireland and was intended to imply "an Irish peasant"."
This is very silly, Oilean Thorai was named for the same perjorative but ultimately 'badge of honour' reason as the Tory Party, ie a hideaway for brigands.
The Irish Peasant remark is offensive, so I am going to remove it. Brendandh (talk) 20:21, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Tory Island

message: I have a few sources that say during the American Civil War (1861-1865), rebels in Alabama referred to Unionists as "Tories." Just thought I should mention it. Maybe whoever has been working on this article can do some resarch a make a section regarding Tories in the Civil War (I noticed the same has already been done for the American Revolution and the Texas Revolution). thanks--$1LENCE D00600D (talk) 05:39, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of names were used.  That does not make them of appreciable encyclopedic value in Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: American Civil War

message: *Support disambiguation the article should be moved, and replaced by the disambiguation page. Clearly the British party isn't what should sit here either, considering the content of the Toyrism article. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 13:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it not depend on what you are searching for? If your search is "Tory", then it seems likely you want to know about some kind of Tories. If your search is "Toryism", then this is the page which tells you about it. Moonraker (talk) 13:10, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at this way:  Googlebooks lists initially over 10 million book hits for "Tory" and 500K for "Toryism" roughly a 20:1 ratio.  HighBeam has 340K hits for "Tory" and 1100 for "Toryism", a 300:1 ratio.   Questia finds  165K articles and books with "Tory", and   2300 articles and books for "Toryism" - more than a 70:1 ratio.   The NYT search find 80K hits for "Tory" and  900 for "Toryism", nearly a 90:1 ratio.  I suggest that it is reasonably clear that "Toryism" is not the common search term at all.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

text: But "Tory" is not the commonly-used term for Toryism, which is what this page deals with. Moonraker (talk) 13:10, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading the article, any such fundamental difference between the two is not evident, and the article is quite clearly deals extensively with the former, not just the latter. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The lede contrasts Conservatism with "radical liberalism". The Liberalism page has no mention of this and it strongly appears to be pushing POV. Why, as neutral encyclopedians, should the word 'radical' remain?  Skyemoor (talk) 18:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: They called themselves radicals.  TFD (talk) 22:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  'radical' liberalism? 

message: I have noticed this part here "In Australia, "Tory" is used as a pejorative term by members of the Australian Labor Party to refer to members of the conservative coalition Liberal and National parties"
I could not access the source of this on Google Books however I noticed that the author has noted that it is a "philosophical examination of some of the basic concepts of political discourse" (http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/enhancements/fy0648/93038021-d.html)
This term does not appear to be in use, I could only find a previous ALP Deputy PM using it once in 2012 stating "I like fighting Tories"
Would not call this an average term or a 'pejorative term- even by the Australian Labor Party.. When I read the article I immediately thought that the Deputy PM likes fighting the British Conservative Party.
The 'pejorative term' for the right-wing is racist/nationalist as the pejorative term for the left-wing is simply communist.
The author A.W. Sparkes made the claim in the 1994 for his philosophical book and a member of the ALP has used it once. Other than that, this term is not used by the left-wing often (or at all?). The ALP does not seem to use the word Tory when referring to the Coalition (if we do a Google search). If they did use it the average Australian would think they are referring to the British Conservative Party. This appears to be a once only event.
I think we should have a discussion on this and work it out, let me know what you think.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.230.5.64 (talk) 10:24, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the link.  See pp. 202-203.)  Note the book was published in 1994.  I imagine the term has probably gone into disuse.  Unfortunately the book does not provide any sources.  Let's see if we can find anyone else who has written about this.  TFD (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the word Tory in Australia 

message: This article reads like it has been tampered with. There are tense changes even in the first few paragraphs "supported/support" etc. It needs re-edited. Also, someone has ludicrously inserted individuals such as C S Lewis, J R R Tolkien and Peter Hitchens as adherents of Toryism, a political movement in the United Kingdom that had ceased to exist long before any of these men were born. This needs to be rectified.
This problem has arisen because the article has been badly edited so as to change the focus of the article from the old political movement of Toryism to simply the term "Tory". The confusion is exacerbated by the fact that in modern Britain the term "Tory" is a nickname for a person that supports the United Kingdom's Conservative Party. But modern British conservatism is NOT Toryism. This article used to draw the distinction nicely and pointed out the differences between the two.
Perhaps it would be best merely to make alterations by splitting this into separate pages? I note that there is concern that the subject matter ought to focus on more than the political movement as it existed in Britain, but also US, Canada etc. I think the article is wrong to focus on the word "Tory" rather than "Toryism". If someone searches "Tory" why not redirect them to "Toryism" and then within the context of that article explain the meaning of Tory (a person who supports Toryism) and draw out the difference between the old Tories and the use of that term nowadays (at least in Britain) to mean "Conservative".
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bunlar (talk • contribs) 02:22, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with some of your comments.  However, Toryism is seen as a political position that evolved at least from the late 18th century until today, even if the Conservative Party has been overrun by neoliberalism.  TFD (talk) 03:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerns 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The introduction has the language:
:"[1] A Tory holds a political philosophy (Toryism) based on a British version of traditionalism and conservatism, [2] which upholds the supremacy of social order as it has evolved throughout history." 
The section uses peacock language throughout; in particular "supremacy" and "social order" are poorly defined and yet are supposedly referencing important concepts. The writing is essentially using jargon, condensing traditionalism and conservatism to a link, and not explaining what "supremacy" and "social order" refer to specifically, and failing to directly reference "aristocracy" (European, although monarchy] is referenced) "loyalism" (to leader, although there is some meaningful divide between leader loyalists and nation loyalists), and "nationalism" (British ethnic). 
The first part has the problem of compound statements, in trying to reference the personal object and the philosophical idea in the same sentence. Renaming this article to Toryism would be a way to solve this, and then the first sentence would become of the form (which is more normal):
:'Toryism is a political philosophy which.. A person holding this philosophy is referred to as a Tory.. "
-Inowen (talk) 06:48, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction problems 

message: This article could mention that in Great Britain, the term "Tory" is generally used as a pejorative term for a member of the Conservative Party. Vorbee (talk) 08:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Pejorative term