Talk:Emo/Archive 1

message: Whether Weezer is an emo band is debatable; but it is certainly not representative of emo music and does not belong under Essential Records. I've removed it. --cprompt 23:23, 30 March 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weezer 

message: This is an elaboration of my request for cleanup.  The first sentence says that emo is short for emocore, but the rest of the article (as well as the Emocore article) seem to disagree.  If some fan said "you're emo", how could that be short for emocore?  This sentence especially makes no sense: "Just as emo added a new found intensity to the original emocore style, the style of hardcore emo brought the intensity to a climax." --Resister 00:06, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Emo is an abbreviation for "emotional hardcore".  Not just "emotional" as the article says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.63.57.87 (talk • contribs) 19:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, look here, emo edit 26 Apr 05. Somebody completely destroyed the emo article and it hasn't been properly restored. They obviously don't know anything about emo, they even changed every reference to 'punk' to 'rock.' The downside to wikipedia. I hadn't been back here for over a month and when I did I was shocked at how much it was changed. Before this change, the emo article was far better. I suggest we restore it to a version sometime around here. Especially the emo glasses pic, and the "emotional hardcore" definition. People can then ADD to it the more modern emo stuff without deleting the excellent summary we had before. C'mon, people, this is shocking. We've let a few kids with bad writing skills destroy this article.  SP 27May05 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.46.190 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been almost 100 edits (albeit a good few of those are vandals/reverts) since the first diff. link you posted, and probably at least that many again since the second link you posted. It seems that it might be better to just rewrite the parts that were wholly changed, using the older version you point to as a guide. --Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:31, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  emotional hardcore 

message: Does anyone actually feel that image adds anything to the article?  It looks like a low quality shot of a bored kid in a classroom, maybe just someone trying to put their pic in the Wikipedia.  It certainly isn't a good enough image to inform about emo fashion, is it? --Paige 20:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Emo fashion, according to its proponents, is deeply rooted in a "being proud of who you are", anti-consumer subculture. Oh the irony! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.186.144.210 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 29 March 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a good drawing of an emo, but I'm unsure wether or not it is copyrighted.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.21.247 (talk • contribs) 19:04, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless it says you can use it (under the wikipedia acceptable licenses), you cannot use it. -- Refrozen 22:49, 25 June 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo Example image? 

message: Not a lot of people seem to have noticed the fact that the alternative youth subculture of Emo has "borrowed" many elements from punk rockers and Goths. We can analyse the sterotypical "Emo kid" from head to toe and identify the parts that have been stolen from which cultures. The hair, first of all, for males. Many followers of Emo fashion have what has been nicknamed a "scene" haircut. This involves the hair to be cut short and spiked out at the back, but leaving the top and fringe longer to droop forward over the eyes. The hair is usually dyed black.
Now, let us mention three bands here. The Cure, AFI and The Misfits. During the mid-80s, Robert Smith of The Cure had his long hair drooping over his eyes, buthad the back slightly shorter and spiked out. Jerry Only of The Misfits invented a haircut in the late 70s/early 80s known as a "devilock" which involved the hair to be cut short, but leaving the fringe to grow very long and to be combed forward over the eyes Only, guitarist Doyle and former lead singer Glenn Danzig all wore the stlye and dyed their hair black. Most members of The Misfits have sported the style or one similar at one point or another. During the "All Hallows EP" and "The Art of Drowning"-era, AFI frontman Davey Havok used to have a haircut that mixed these two styles together, cutting his hair short by way of the standard hardcore punk shirt and spiky haircut, but left only his immediate fringe to grow long, at least down to his chin. He also dyed his blond hair black from a very young age. Since the appearance of this variation of the devilock, the two have been given names: The Only Devilock and The Havok Devilock. These two, and in particular Havok's variation, are an obvious precursor to what has become known as "scene" hair.
Moving down to the face, black eyeliner and sometimes eyeshadow is applied, regardless of gender. This in itself is a blatant rip off of the early 80s British Goth bands, including The Cure, Bauhaus and Siouxsie & The Banshees. The Misfits' Jerry Only and AFI's Davey Havok and Jade Puget also do this. Also, the tunnel style ear piercings and side of lip ring have been borrowed from Havok again.
:what's your point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.215.194.208 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo is a blatant, shameless thief 

message: I was a bit surprised to noticed that there wasn't any mention of Ian MacKaye's band Embrace anywhere in the article. Almost every other source (including the Embrace and Ian MacKaye Wikipedia articles) recognize Rites of Spring and Embrace as being the first emo bands, or at least the two that got the ball rolling on the emo movement. I think Embrace at least deserves a mention, moreso than Fugazi since Embrace was directly involved in the movement while Fugazi's influence was peripheral. --Mouseclicker 20:55, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done That... i totally agreed... i attempted to fix some of the history last night, i may clean it up a little bit more... because i thought the 1984-1992 was lacking, especially with geographical detail... all things aside, as much as husker du was an "emo" album, it didn't "start" the emo engine. the DC hardcore scene did... so i edited it. July 15, 2005 --evesummernight 00:11, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Embrace? 

message: Okay, so i see that there needs to be a greater in depth look at bands from 1998 on, underground, above ground, all around, because it's kinda lacking and sucky, imo. am i the only one who feels that way? July 15, 2005 --evesummernight 00:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  1998 on 

message: We really need to address the level of dislike of the emo community. The perpetual vandalism of this page for example, or the fact that I have never heard the term in any way other than in a perjorative. Most of the times I've heard it, it was coupled w "fag", I shit you not.  --Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 20:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Have to agree with this, I would also like to see this rewritten again due to the fact I think the neutrality is close to constantly being disputed. Massive imbalance. --Boochan 12:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Now on the other hand, i am in total disagreence with the current placement of the discussion of the term emo. Any Backers? --evesummernight 00:59, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo-fag 

message: Soemthing that I noticed wasn't mentioned or must have been incorrectly stated is that Emo is short for "emotional" which is not at all. It is actually short for "emotive hardcore". Unfortunately MTV has made people nowdays think it means emotional to get all the kids to listen to what are actually indie bands such as Dashboard. Most real Emo bands today tend to have more of a metal-core/math-core sound compared to how they sounded when the term "Emo" was coined by other hardcore bands to make fun of emotive-hardcore. This may explain the reason the term "Emo" is thrown around alot. Since many "Emo" bands sound like hardcore/metal-core at first listen many have just lumped them into hardcore which left the term "Emo" ripe to be basically stolen by another genre of music that had actually very little to do with or even influenced by Emo. Many of what non-hardcore listeners think is Emo is really just pop-indie, glorified by MTV. Unfortunately most people will never know the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.119.116 (talk • contribs) 05:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emotive hardcore 

message: Good edit, Icarus3, thanks. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: -) Thanks.  I figured the pics might not have been all that great, but there's no need to lose the links.  I'm somewhat confused as to how I ended up watching and occasionally editing this article, seeing as I'm not emo, and have too little familiarity with it to have a strong opinion on it either way.  Hey, now I've finally figured out what to put on my user page!  Yay! --Icarus 04:18, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm certainly not emo either, in fact it was only after reading this article that I discovered an aquintence of mine had been / is one. I probably know more about elmo than emo, but that doesn't make us worse editors, it simply makes us better at neutrality / formatting stuff than bulk content contributions :) I also helped out regarding anti-emo sentiment awhile back, as that had been lacking. Pretty much everything I've ever heard about emo (before reading this article) was from punk rockers and skinheads who hated emo kids passionately ;) Anyways, I agree very much w both the substance of, and the sentiment behind your edit. Glad to see you have a user page too, that red user name makes some people think your too fresh to be trusted ;) Cheers, ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 22:29, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good edit 

message: I think the page needs to have a better division between true emo from each era (From Rites of Spring to Antioch Arrow to Rockets And Blue Lights to Saetia to Circle Takes the Square) and the bands that improperly get labelled emo today (Weezer? Who suggested including them?). I think the fact that the fairly in depth emo history and definition sections immediately blend into the emo fashion and haircut and fashioncore BS makes it confusing to discern what is actually emo and what the page sort of labels scene emo. I think the page should really be twofold: Emo Use and Abuse.
I have started editing a timeline of this on this forum I frequent. Feel free to make comments and suggestions about the list as I don't have every emo band ever, nor do I know exactly what time period each belongs in.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DFelon204409 (talk • contribs) 03:47, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Truth in music is a hard road to haul... check out death metal sometime ;) ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 03:49, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Division of Real Emo and Misnomer Emo 

message: This section was recently added.  I'm not sure if it is of any merit, but even if it is, the quality needs improvement.  Cheers! Sophrosune (talk) 00:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, I was going to work on the capitalization and punctuation, but since it doesn't seem to be the final version, I'll leave it be, seems like much work is needed on it. --Font 03:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of that info may have legitimate places throughout the article, but lumping it all together as 'hobbies' is ridiculous.  Anyone who can figure out a decent way to work in the better parts of that list, and do so in a way that doesn't make it sound like all emo fans fit all of them, is free to do so.  But the way it was before was just a big list of stereotypes and generalizations. --Icarus 14:26, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hobbies Section 

message: hi, i recently edited the page and added a lot of stuff to the "revolution summer" era (ie 1985 and on - embrace, rites etc). i would like to add relevant parts from Dance of Days as well since that is more of a direct authority on the subject (including parts on the official origin of the term), but i just haven't gotten around to it. i also added a bunch of info to the 90s section, as i actually am old enough to have lived thru that entire era (88ish to now) AND did a hardcore fanzine from 91 to 2000. i did reviews of all those bands (still have about 90% of all the records), interviewed bands like Lifetime and saw the whole thing progress and develop firsthand. july 29, 2005 --Chadski 07:52, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revolution summer 

message: Throughout the article, emo is used with and without quotes numerously, shouldn't they either be all quoted, or all not quoted...? --Klaser 05:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Vote: Without. i say without quotes, quotes shoule be used for other things, if not, italics and bolded. --evesummernight 04:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: reply.  i think the quoted emo and unquoted emo words represent two different things.  unquoted is the genre discribed, and quoted is the word that means emotional or w/e the heck people say it means today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.90.64 (talk • contribs) 00:46, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with the reply, though I don't know that this is done with 100% accuracy. --dawhitfield 12:45, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of quotes 

message: the emo fashion section is terrible... --Xsharksx 3 July 2005 10:27 (UTC)
:emo fashion section is WAY wrong.  emo fashion is supposed to be ANTI-consumer, not commercialized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.90.64 (talk • contribs) 00:46, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it depends on what variety of emo you look at.  Hot Topic is pretty commercial and it definitely does emo....--dawhitfield 12:45, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether it's supposed to be anti-consumer or not, the fact is it's become a big business.  And the description in this article (especially of "fashioncore") is all but identical to the "emo kids" I know.  It's also just about the only thing you see when you go to Warped Tour here (Detroit area). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.61.148 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo Fashion and Definition 

message: in going along with my post above, and thinking about this more and reading the post-hardcore wikipedia entry, it seems as there is a lot of overlap between the two genres. by definition, every traditional emo band (85-9x) is post-hardcore, in that they are evolving past HC. however, post-hardcore has been a pretty well defined sound, with most bands in the category either following the Fugazi model or the Quicksand model. maybe this should go on the post-hardcore discussion page, but there were bands listed over there that i always considered 100% emo (ie Texas Is The Reason or Elliott), and some bands there i always thought of as indie rock (Jets To Brazil, despite the HC pedigree of certain members - they just didn't have enough of that Quicksand sound for me to call them post-hardcore). good topic for discussion over here as well, as Nation Of Ulysses is listed there as being post-hardcore, but on the NOU page are referred to as indie/emo.
also somewhat tough to define (although i attempted on the main page) is the intersection of pop punk, emo and hardcore in late 80s, early 90s melodic bands like Jawbreaker and Samiam. I remember Jawbreaker in the early 90s initially being described as pop-punk, then mid 90s as indie rock and then somewhere along the line they got tagged with the ol' "emo". same with Samiam, they were always called "pop-punk" in fanzines but in retrospect they have plenty of emo influences as well. --chadski 09:08, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In reference to the Jets to Brazil mention; I mentioned the same thing about a few other bands that get lumped into genres simply due to the members of the band.  Since it has come up, I'll mention one other instance.  Lead singer of Millencolin Nikola released a solo album that was folk-pop or acoustic rock, or something (let's not get into THAT genre discussion).  Anyway, it wasn't punk by just about any stretch and yet Yahoo! put it in punk, presumably because of Nikola.  Another example is the Weakerthans (some guy from Prophaghandi is the lead singer of that band), though the Weakerthans album is closer to punk than Nikola's album.Dawhitfield 03:06, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  post-hardcore vs emo vs indie rock 

message: I've excepted the new change.  it seems to have the same info on what emo is and less clichy trendy stuff on it.  but sersiously, it need to be organized, i can hardly tell what im looking at.  -Aug.18 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.90.64 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It makes sense to me. I believe chadski is working on that. When my work ends next Tuesday I'll be fixing a lot of stuff up. I'll write out the modern emo information, etc. --DFelon204409 07:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization 

message: Encyclopedic approach would have this as the main article with links (& using template  should really be the main article
*The template is a useful addition. 
*The main article should be this one.
**Current characteristics of Emo noting that this is different/divergent from earlier style of Emo genre
***List of Emo groups or List of later Emo groups
**History at Emocore (or new article) maybe with summary here
***List of early Emo groups needs to be split off from List of Emo groups
**fashion (& scene) at Emo fashion with summary here
To me 21st century Emo somehow does not seem to be an appropriate title --Paul foord 14:24, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article structure and relationships with other articles 

message: What are these? They are on :Template:Emo - chaotic emo appears to be a synonym for emo, and most google references are to the wikapedia article(s). midwestern emo appears as if there is substance though --Paul foord 07:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  redlinks on the template chaotic emo/midwestern emo 

message: If someone is really bored, they should attempt to organize this discussion page, because there's absolutely no coherence to any of these discussions. If you edit this page, please, for the love of music, sign your posts, separate posts, use bullets, and make it NCO (which is NEAT CLEAN AND ORDERLY). THANK YOU. --evesummernight 04:48, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup talk page 

message: I added a Daria pic, i believe she is the iconoclic personality of Emo culture. If anyone would like to add something towards go ahead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raddicks (talk • contribs) 03:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Though it's not there now, thanks for the reference.  I've been hearing the term "emo" a lot lately (web comics like Sinfest and Questionable Content), but haven't been able to get a sense what it is.  (And "emotional" doesn't explain anything to a newcomer. I haven't heard of any of these bands.  Sorry.)  Daria has a strong and consistent personality.  If she really is representative of the Emo scene, she should (IMO) be mentioned in the article.  --Chris (24.5.12.147 18:05, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change 

message: Any of you here who are more familiar with emo rock...I was just wondering..would you consider emo and art rock to be very similar?? For example: Conor Oberst from Bright Eyes was mentioned under "Emo" and "Art Rock" in Wikipedia. I am so confused! From my listening experience...I'd say his style is more art rock because of his poem-like,lyrical genius and intense emotionally charged singing. But one of the definitions for "emo" given here is identical/very similar to how art rock is perceived. Any input?? THANKS. --User:GUEST 00:38, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo vs. Art Rock 

message: They should not have been separated in this way. Please merge 21st Century Emo ASAP. --Sam Spade 23:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs merged w 21st Century Emo 

message: The neutrailty of the Emo from 2000-present should be disputed...in my opinion the bands listed are emo and the person who edited the article says they are "incorrectly" classified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.142.179.152 (talk • contribs) 17:28, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality. 

message: In the article under the Second Wave section, it says the growing popularity of emo enabled it to be featured as performances on The Daily Show, but I could have sworn Jon Stewart said the White Stripes where the first musical group to ever perform on the show.  Can someone verify? --BoomBox 19:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is talking about an entirely different show, not the Daily Show.  It was the John Stewart Show.  It was a nightly variety show (like Letterman and Conan O'Brien) that initially ran on MTV, then shifted to syndication.  1994-1995 or so.  Stewart regularly had bands on, like Bad Religion, Letters to Cleo, Love Spit Love, etc. --ChrisB 19:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gotcha, thanks for the clear up. --BoomBox 19:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appearances on The Daily Show? 

message: Someone added Long Island to the origins. I removed it because there are no references to it. Unless I overlooked something.. --Klaser 06:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: long island has nothing to do with emo's origins. bands like Glassjaw and The Movielife hail from there, but they both started out as hardcore bands anyway --chadski 02:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Long island is just an extention on the NJ/NY scene of old. --evesummernight 14:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long Island 

message: I think that emo is more than just a genre of music and fashion; I think of it as a lifestyle as well. I think that a section should be added to reflect this. Does anyone disagree? --Theslash 02:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do. --nightpotato 03:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Emo (slang).  If it can be conclusively proven that the term is being used as a lifestyle term, we'll change the title of that article.  But, we're trying to keep this article focused on the music, and not so much on the other elements. --ChrisB 20:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emo as a  Lifestyle? 

message: What is the motivation for the grafiti slogans depicting "Make Emo History" ? --Drstorage 19:51, 19 January 2006
:Based on the "Make Poverty History" campaign.  In response, people are swapping "poverty" for things they don't like. --ChrisB 20:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Make Emo History" ? 

message: i realized that there is no mention on the main page of Nation of Ulysses, who are pretty much responsible as an influence for the entire early 90s Gravity/San Diego/chaotic emo scene. they're the connection between classic revolution summer DC and later eras, in that they basically took the more chaotic & rhythmic parts of Rites of Spring and ran with it. 
also due to Nation of Ulysses's influence, in the early 90s, before there was "scene hair", there were kids wearing white belts and getting dr. spock haircuts. common nicknames are "spock rockers", "romulans", "white belts". there probably should be further discussion of this aspect of the fashion, as it is what led to the current "fashioncore" trends, otherwise it seems like fashioncore just popped out of thin air.
even regarding "scene hair", 5+ years ago this haircut used to be exclusively for girls. at some point it became unisex. i've also heard this haircut referred to as "the turkey cut" or the JFK.
also needing mention in the early 90s is the Ebullition label as well as the trend of creating super-DIY packaging for records including records that were sold in silkscreened paper bags, envelopes, etc. also extreme PC politics, which may have led to the backlash of calling people "emo fags", not only as a blatant insult on a basic level, but to insult the PC sensibilities as well.
there is no discussion of actual elements of what makes a song musically "emo", whether it is pedal points, octave chords, breakdowns, drum builds, drop tuning, harmonies, screamy parts, twinkly intros, etc. certain aspects of which, can define a bands sound and genre classification. --chadski 09:08, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think thats true.(1/2)*a*t^2+v0*t+s0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.191.141.232 (talk • contribs) 09:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Chadski, that was some truth. That's what I said above. --DFelon204408 19:43, 13 August 2005(UTC)
I also agree that additions need to be made. This article seems to say that the original emo sound has completely dissappeared but the truth is it still exists. There is still an underground scene with many active bands and many active labels (Level Plane, Ebullition, Robotic Empire...) This scene differs in many ways from the mainstream "emo" and I think this is worth mentioning. Many of these bands are very political. They do not have the obsession with fashion that the mainstream scene seems to have. Much of the music is released on vinyl and with super-DIY packaging as mentioned above. There are other differences as well and an addition such as this I feel would make sense to emphasize the difference in the perception of what emo is to the mainstream and to the underground. Also there needs to be a description of the "sound" of emo as mentioned above,because this is REALLY what defines the genre. --xghstst0riesx 22:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  further additions needed 

message: Seaweed the punk rock band from Tacoma, Washington also needs to be here.  Braid, Saves the Day, Promise Ring, among others, have cited them as an influence.  Just because they are from the Northwest, do not categorize them as grunge, as that term means nothing: really refers to a period of time and the Seattle geography, rather than a music style..  Seaweed were--in sound and at heart--an energetic, catchy, punk band with loud guitars, intelligent lyrics, and  excellent, soaring vocals by Aaron Stauffer.  They belong in the same category as contemporaries such as Samiam, Jawbreaker, Lifetime and Knapsack.  Leaving them, and Superchunk, off the influences list is insanity. -Louis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.231.6.68 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seaweed