Talk:Wine Country

message: Stub by length. Importance is "high" and arguably "top" since it does have international name recognition as a part of california. what do others think? Anlace 23:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Initial Assessment

message: I am a timid editor, usually just adding relevant links, which I've found in the case of stubs seems to help stimulate further development by other editors.
However, for this one I must declare a conflict for my edit, as these pages are on a site I helped build to promote a related author. But I felt the photo gallery was illustrative and relevant, and might "help the stub."
So in respect of the guidelines, I am making this note. Jeffreykopp 19:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to sonomapicnic.com 

message: I believe this page should be deleted and the idea of Wine Country should just be added to California wine.  I will present this to the WikiWine project and if in 30 days if no one gives a good reason, I will go forward with doing this.Christopher Tanner, CCC 05:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well you can just merge the contents and leave Wine Country as a redirect to California. No need to go through a full WP:AfD. I would probably give the merge tag a week or so time to see if anyone else comments. If nothing comes up, feel free to be Bold and do the merge. AgneCheese/Wine 06:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Strongly oppose merger.  This is the worst idea for a merger proposal i have ever seen on wikipedia.  The Wine Country is a well defined region of the North Bay that is internationally recognized.  In addition:
* the regions of California Wine and Wine Country are not the same.
* the topic Wine Country has elements of culture, ecology, geology that are unique to Sonoma and Napa Counties
* the size and scope of Wine Country as a topic is huge and should not be deemed part of an even larger article.
Anlace 14:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Why would you even consider subsuming something so specific as Wine Country into a bigger topic?  Could you please put forth your reasons for this rather than just proposing it, as you have given no reasons.  If you don't have reasons, then please don't propose it.   KP Botany 15:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reason Because Everyone has a Wine Country. Every country, every state, and every wine region has a section or area that they refer to as "wine country". If this article has any hope of growing beyond a stub state, then at the very least it should be renamed California wine country with wine country becoming a redirect to List of wine growing regions. The information in this article is specific to California wine and California wine only, hence the reason to merge. The article fails dreadfully in presenting a worldwide perspective and is very POV oriented. AgneCheese/Wine 18:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, so you're not suggesting it be deleted, but rather that Washington Wine Country, New York Wine Country all be ADDED?  Then, say so.  I could whip up a couple of stubs for some of those.  KP Botany 19:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of this page

message: "After proposing the merger, place your reasons on the talk page and check back in a couple of weeks for a response. You may be able to invoke a response by contacting some of the major or most-recent contributors via their respective talk-pages. If there is clear agreement after two weeks that the articles should be merged (or no response after four weeks), proceed with the merger."
:As the user has only placed "I believe" as reasons, I propose this tag be removed in 48 hours from both articles if no reasons are forthcoming.  A personal belief system is not a reason for merging a major and distinct subject into some over-riding topic.  Just like Napa County won't be merged into the California page without good reasons, this merge won't happen without good reason.  
:This is a surprising merge proposal.  KP Botany 15:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:Merge]] instructions 

message: Actually, it was good to propose the merger, even if it is completely inappropriate.  The article is in sorry shape and needs major work to be even partially worthwhile.  KP Botany 16:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal alert 

message: This merge proposal had been on here prior to me mentioning this so I was just bringing up the idea to see if anyone had an opinion.  I really don't feel like arguing semantics however so Ill just leave it the way it is and suggest that someone else works on it.  I'll end my comments on this article by stating that there is factually way too much cross-over with California Wine and Wine Country.  Wine Country is the Napa and Sonoma Valleys which are clearly within California Wine.  In repeating Sonoma Valley, Napa Valley, Wine Country and California Wine these articles become very redundant. Wine Country clearly requires a definition and not an encyclopedia entry.  The phrase does not have an entry in the Oxford Companion to Wine, The Oxford Companion to the Wines of North America, The New Sothby's Wine Encyclopedia, Exploring Wine textbook from the Culinary Institute of America (which has a campus in Napa Valey).  So if someone else wants to remove the tag, please feel free.  I've never even added one or removed one so have at it.Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wine Country is a major California tourist destination composed of both the Sonoma and Napa Valley wine regions.  If, as such, you feel it's not within the purview of WikiProject Wine, that's fine--but that doesn't mean the article should be deleted.  I suspect that McDonald's doesn't have any entries in CIA cookbooks, but this does not mean it shouldn't have an article in Wikipedia.  Wine Country is more than a dictionary definition in spite of its crappy article.  If you have no reasons for deletion, then please remove your tag and strike out your suggestion that it should be deleted based upon your belief.  A proposal for deletion of this article would not go forward, and would consume time without value.  KP Botany 17:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not advocating deletion of this article but after spending a fair time in AfD, I would say the complete dearth of references in the entire article-much less those that singularly define Wine Country as this particular spot in California, would allow an AfD to go pretty far. You shouldn't dismiss Chris' point so lightly. However, I think there is more benefit in merging and saving the redirect then in AfD. AgneCheese/Wine 19:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are other tags that deal with lack of references.  AfD is not for AfD, but for articles that are not encyclopedia-worthy for some reason or another.  If you are posting AfD tags on articles for lack of references, would you please check out Wikipedia's policies on both AfD and on references and use the correct tags.  Thank you.  KP Botany 19:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but there is no reference to support the "encyclopedia-worthy" nature of a singularly POV focus "Wine country" article about a specific place in California. Especially when the term is not universally (or even primarily) used in a context to describe this area of California. I have a strong feeling the majority of "Keep" votes would actually be "Merge" votes into Californian wine. Though I wouldn't be surprise if there was a fair number of outright delete votes.AgneCheese/Wine 19:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you even try the google searches you posted below?  I'm sorry, but your personal experience isn't what the article is about.  Again, if you want this moved, then suggest a move with reasons.  If you want it deleted, post there with reasons.  Do whatever it is you want, but you haven't offered anything here that shows you know the policies you are proposing or are clear about what you think should be done and the supporting basis for it, so that's probably enough back and forth here.  KP Botany 19:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Luck with this Article

message: Feel free to add to this list
*Washington Wine Country
*Oregon Wine Country
* Missouri Wine Country
*Illinois Wine Country
*Virginia Wine Country
*North Carolina Wine Country
*New York Wine Country
*Australian Wine Country
*Canada's wine country
*Bordeaux wine country
*Burgundy wine country
* German wine country
*"Finger Lakes wine country"
*"Long Island wine country
*Hunter Valley wine country
Wine country in any wine region is a major tourist region and while California's wine region is certainly notable, so is Bordeaux and Australia, etc. The simple fact remains that for the average Wikipedia reader, "Wine Country" doesn't immediately spring to mind this one particular area for California. It can spring to mind any of a number of regions and places that all call themselves "Wine country". The reason for the merge is simple, this article simply shouldn't exist in its current location and under its current title. The information is better served in the main Californian wine article. I think a merge would also help keep the contents in check from spilling over into advertisements and maintain focus more on the encyclopedic nature of the subject then in trying to lure tourist. AgneCheese/Wine 18:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you've rather lost me a bit, starting by saying the subject is "certainaly notable," then moving on to merging the article because spam might be put into the article.  Sorry, but this isn't a reason for merging.  See Seaworld, Disneyland, Knott's Berry Farm for other articles that haven't been merged into the State of California or anywhere else for fear they might be trying to lure tourists.  If these other wine countries are notable, also, they should have their own articles.  WP:Move is what is used to change the title of an article, not AfD or Merge, so please, read up on the assorted policies, figure out what you think should be done, then present arguments, if you still think that is best, for what should be done.  But, it's difficult to follow when you're all over the place on policies, you suggest a merge but don't post any reasons to begin with, and you're arguing that tourist attractions, which litter Wikipedia, can't have articles because they might attract spam.  I suggest you remove the merge tags for now, regroup, reconsider, and read up, then, if you have a cohesive proposal within the policies of Wikipedia, post the appropriate tags WITH discussions.  There might be a better way to do this, but the onus is not on me to provide it.  KP Botany 19:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Agne, California has a very important wine region, but as it stands this article doesn't really do much other than give a basic definition of California's wine country. As it stands now, I think merging the information to California Wine makes sense.  The information about where a large amount of the state's wine is made is important to that article. If this article can be expanded to the point where is goes beyond just a definition (for example including information about the economic impact that the region has), then it should be renamed to "California Wine Country."   What "Wine Country" is very dependent on where you live.   When I talk about wine county, I'm referring to Eastern Washington.  When I visited friends in Central New York, they were talking about the Finger Lakes.   --- The Bethling(Talk) 21:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the naming convention is Wine Country (California).  But, I disagree that because the article needs work it should be merged, if the article could sustain its own article.  There are plenty of pages on Wikipedia that are just stubs, that need work, but don't necessarily require merging.  The article should be expanded beyond its current pathetic point.  In addition, while California wine should contain general information about the relationship between the tourist industry in California and wine growing, I don't see that it should specifically cover Napa and Sonoma Wine Country as a distinct point, without discussing each other wine growing region, Foothills, Livermore, etc., as their tourism rates and distinction are different from Wine Country's.  I can see it mentioned in the article, but wine in California is HUGE, and well beyond the tourist industry.  It would be like including a section on tourism in the Bourdeaux region in the article on French wine.  It is dang famous, but is it part of the article on French wine, which encompasses far more than tourism of the region?  KP Botany 21:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: *Looking at the edits to this article, I can see that there has already been at least one reference added that distinguishes California's Wine Country as being more than just the collection of wine regions.   That's information that would not be merge-worthy, so I'd now lean to keeping the article is some form, though, I'd rather see a more specific name than just Wine "Country" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bethling (talk • contribs) 05:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The use of the term ‘Wine Country’ to designate the Napa-Sonoma region is a Northern California affectation (“We’re going up to the wine country for the weekend.”) that ignores a lot of other wine-making regions even in Northern California. It seems provincial to claim this designation for just this region. As suggested elsewhere, maybe a better dictionary definition rather than an encyclopedia article. My .02--Fizbin 01:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: to user Fisbin: your impression of what is provincial or affected is not relevant here. (I have hundreds of anecnotal tales i could invoke regarding discussions with people living in other continents who clearly use the term "Wine Country" to denote singly and unequivocally the Wine Country of Northern California, but my anecdotes are not relevant here either.) Many documentary sources exist (some i have started to add to the article) which indicate the term "Wine Country" is clearly used to denote the Northern California wine country.  The burden of proof is upon you to produce reliable sources indicating "other" wine regions are internationally referred to as "The Wine Country".  I look forward to your citations. Anlace 03:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  http://www.winecountry.com clearly denotes multiple regions in the United States being labeled as Wine Country.  In addition to do you think that people in Paso Robles consider themselves in Wine Country?  I think if you are going to make a California Wine Country article, you need to denote all the regions of wine in the article, but then you just end up repeating California Wine.  As for the Bordeaux wine country example KPBotony, If you look in the Bordeaux article there is clearly a section on wine within the article.  You would put a section on Wine Tourism in an article on California though.  Wine Country clearly is a generic term when it is seen to label other wine tourist regions as well.  There is also a reason its called Wine Country, it is because of the wine, not the other tourist attractions.  I just don't see the purpose of Wine Country California even, because it will just repeat the same information that should be in California Wine.  So instead of joined efforts on one article, we will have people working on two articles that will talk about the same thing, until the inevitable happens and people become bored and the articles are not worked on until someone brings up something controversial like this again.Christopher Tanner, CCC 05:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other "Wine Countries"

message: This article is certainly in need of upgrading.  The article is in the province of Wikipedia:WikiProject San Francisco Bay Area and has been formally nominated as an article to be improved under the Wikipedia:WikiProject San Francisco Bay Area/Jumpaclass category.  The project track record has shown such project listings have always resulted in upgrading of one to two grades within five days.  I suggest the merge tags be removed and let constructive work occur here. Anlace 00:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article improvement

message: Wine Country → Wine country (California) — The current article title is very POV driven in that it makes the assumption that the only "wine country" in the world is this one particular area in California. There is also no reliable sources in existence to show universal (much less primarily) usage for this specific region to cover a worldwide perspective. In truth, the phrase is used in the wine world in much the same way that Downtown is used in references to cities. Every wine region has "wine country" and after the move, it is requested that Wine Country serve as a redirect to List of wine producing regions AgneCheese/Wine 18:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: K Botany, please confine your edits to more constructive items. Your fact tags are unduly antagonistic. AgneCheese/Wine 19:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Though I agree with him that this article is indeed written about California wine country which is why the page move title is appropriate. However, the article is not about the wine country in the way that the term is even primarily used. (And before you want to slap another fact tag on, look at the info in the discussion section. The onus is on you to prove that it is primarily usage.) AgneCheese/Wine 19:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
#Support as per nomination. The mere fact that the first line is Wine Country is a region of Northern California in the United States should show that this needs to be renamed to the proposed name. A disambiguation page should be created to list the various "wine countries" around the world. --Kimontalk 21:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Add any additional comments:
*In addition to the litany of google hits noted in the section Other wine countries, there is also curious information on the very first page of Google when you type in Wine Country.
# In addition to adding disambiguation (Napa Valley/California/Sonoma County) when they talk about California wine country there is also first page prominence to Hunter Valley, Australia and Oregon wine country. Also, as Chris pointed, the very first link which so happens to be called winecountry.com features prominently Virginia wine country on the front page as well as several other non-Napa/Sonoma and even non-California wine countries. It is quite clear that the WP:COMMONNAME usage of "Wine country" is a generic designation of any wine producing regions and is better served as a redirect to List of wine producing regions. The average wikipedia reader in Australia, England, India, Chile, etc will most likely be looking for something other then this particular spot in California.AgneCheese/Wine 18:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
#Support as per nomination. The mere fact that the first line is Wine Country is a region of Northern California in the United States should show that this needs to be renamed to the proposed name. A disambiguation page should be created to list the various "wine countries" around the world. --Kimontalk 21:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: #Support as per nomination. The mere fact that the first line is Wine Country is a region of Northern California in the United States should show that this needs to be renamed to the proposed name. A disambiguation page should be created to list the various "wine countries" around the world. --Kimontalk 21:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in support of the move

message: :Add any additional comments:
*In addition to the litany of google hits noted in the section Other wine countries, there is also curious information on the very first page of Google when you type in Wine Country.
# In addition to adding disambiguation (Napa Valley/California/Sonoma County) when they talk about California wine country there is also first page prominence to Hunter Valley, Australia and Oregon wine country. Also, as Chris pointed, the very first link which so happens to be called winecountry.com features prominently Virginia wine country on the front page as well as several other non-Napa/Sonoma and even non-California wine countries. It is quite clear that the WP:COMMONNAME usage of "Wine country" is a generic designation of any wine producing regions and is better served as a redirect to List of wine producing regions. The average wikipedia reader in Australia, England, India, Chile, etc will most likely be looking for something other then this particular spot in California.AgneCheese/Wine 18:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: ... and the proper name for the wine growing areas in California are their American Viticultural Areas, not the tourist destination.  KP Botany 19:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wine country]] is a tourist region 

message: Page moved per talk above. Anlace 18:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Page moved

message: At first look, this is a great article, which provides interesting information, fee-use images, and is neutral in point of view. But I must place the article on hold for GA, for the following reasons:
# There are a good number of references, but the use of  and  templates, to cite the sources would be much better.. 
# I would also like to see more inline citations, particularly in the (California)#History|History]] and Ecology section, where the article describes the endangered animals and species found in the region. 
Hope this is helpful... Otherwise, this is a great article! —dima/talk/ 18:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reply Well I was deferring to Anlace and the work he did in originally creating the article with the ecology section. I have to admit, I did think it was a little odd but assumed that it was part of the contention that "wine country" is about more then just wine. If consensus would favor the removal of that section, I have no personal objections against that. AgneCheese/Wine 07:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reply Either that or add something to the introduction, then conform the ecology section to it, with references of course.  Obviously the ecology of the area is important to all wine growing regions, but this information should be about how the region is like other mediterranean wine-growing regions, or why the climate and soils are suitable in spite of differing greatly from the primary wine growing regions of the mediterranean climate areas of the world.  KP Botany 13:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Good article|GA]] on hold 

message: Although the original reviewer's comments do not appear to be valid reasons for failing an article, KPBotany has since raised valid content issues, which have not been addressed since this article was put on hold 10 days ago, three days over the limit for hold. 4u1e 15:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Failed

message: The file  on Wikimedia Commons has been nominated for deletion. View and participate in the deletion discussion at the . Community Tech bot (talk) 11:35, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion