Talk:Southern (Govia Thameslink Railway)

message: Umm. Why isn't this at South Central Trains?
James F. (talk) 13:26, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Though not mentioned in the article, I think Southern use a multi carriage diesel going via Ashford International. Anyone know if I am right? User talk:82.34.227.22 17:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they are now running a few turbostars (171s) all the way from Brigton to Ashford (im sure i saw a press release somewhere), as opposed to the turbostar stopping service (Marshlink) from Hastings to Ashford. Pickle 13:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are indeed diesels running from Brighton all the way to Ashford (but I've no idea what class of rolling stock). A bit iffy 16:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are 171/1s (two carriage Turbostars) Thelem (talk) 00:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Routes 

message: I changed the lead image from a Class 171 Turbostar to a Class 455. I did this because Southern have more routes operating with these, it is in operation as a pose to at RailFest York and the look of these units is unique to Southern. (SWT's units have retained the end gangways.)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by MaryHiason (talk • contribs) 
I would be nice if it was a 377 really, that is what they have the most of.
Neil Mundy
I agree; if we use an old train, that sort of suggests that they don't have any (or at least many) new trains, which isn't the case. David Arthur 16:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, that’s a nice picture, and properly illustrative of the company’s efforts to introduce new trains. David Arthur 23:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Image 

message: In early 2006, Southern became the focus of attention from cyclists' groups, as a result of their enforcement of their policy regarding carriage of cycles.
Could someone make this sentence less willfully vague? --87.82.12.159 17:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cycles 

message: removed as no need, network rail manages the main stations itself (ie Victoria, London bridge and Gatwick), IIRC) the other more minor stations are leased to and administered by the TOC's. several of the stations in the list were network rail stations and stations used by other TOC's (it gave the impression southern was the sole TOC) or even are primarily other TOCs (eg Ashford is a huge southeastern station, only a minor southern station and has the eurostar there). anyone else thought on how this data could be usefully used if at all in any context? Pickle 07:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stations run by southern 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Southern toc logo.gif

message: I cant fix the New fleet sectionLikelife (talk) 15:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help 

message: I changed the image, If you dont like it change it. I just think the old one has been here for a while. Likelife (talk) 18:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  image 

message: I've added the Class 313 details to the Current Fleet as the first two entered service today. We don't have any Southern-liveried 313 pictures at present, so I have used one of a Silverlink-liveried set as an interim measure. The 313s are being cascaded wearing this livery, and some have appeared around Brighton on test in the same colours. L1v3rp00l (talk) 16:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Class 313 

message: Maybe the photo showing a youth cycling towards an automatic door and into a station is not the best example of customer behaviour? Might be better to show something less negative.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.109.225 (talk) 01:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed I think that has now gone.  In the spirit of progress, were there an extra gateway (not doorway) for people cycling to a platform that would not be a first and should not a last, depending of course on route and tourism and so on.  I am more careful not to make posts sound like a lopsided opinion.- Adam37 Talk 12:47, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-social behaviour 

message: The ex ScotRail 170s were operated by First ScotRail until the end of the franchise on 31 March 2015, at which point they were returned to the ROSCO and in turn leased to Southern, They never operated for Abellio ScotRail. This is stated by the cite.D47817 (talk) 22:33, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  ScotRail 170s 

message: On the 25th July 2015, Southern will cease to be a separate TOC, instead becoming a sub-brand of Govia Thameslink Railway, like Thameslink and Great Northern. Should this article retain its current name? Simply south  ...... time, deparment skies for just 9 years 19:31, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It would probably be wise to add a (xxxx-2015) to the title, and redirect this page to GTR. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we should first wait to see how the service will be branded? Lamberhurst (talk) 20:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: See User talk:Redrose64#Incorrect information on "List of Train operating companies". --Redrose64 (talk) 20:44, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Either rename the page to Southern (GTR) or Southern (Govia Thameslink Railway), or merge the page with Gatwick Express, Thameslink and Great Northern and place it at Govia Thameslink Railway (which would potentially create an excessively long page).   JaJaWa |talk  01:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This should probably happen. It's not a train operating company.   JaJaWa |talk  18:06, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I still agree, this is not a TOC anymore. Give it a hatnote though. Gatwick express should also be merged in, in so far as it is a GTR subbrand. Old stuff should not be merged to GTR. -mattbuck (Talk) 18:37, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have a preference for keeping Gatwick Express as it is, since it has (like Southern) retained its identity. As for the present page, I'm not sure that "GTR" will mean a great deal to many users, and putting the full name in is a bit heavy. What about something like Southern (Govia)? Lamberhurst (talk) 21:43, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Partly seeing as the subbrand of Northern Rail's services for electric trains is Northern Electrics (Northern Rail), I think it would be best as Southern (Govia Thameslink Railway) as that is still the overarching TOC. Besides there are other TOCs that are still their own companies e.g. Southeastern and London Midland, etc. Simply south  ...... time, deparment skies for just 9 years 22:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

text: I nearly did earlier today actually. I'll sort out the route box template.   JaJaWa |talk  14:07, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article needs to be split now, to hive off TOC information from GTR. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:46, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub-brand of GTR 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi
Is it possible someone could add a diagram of the class 455 on the fleet list?
Thanks Class455fan1 (talk) 16:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Class 455 diagram 

message: Following my edit on 13 December 2015 at 01:15, in which I had altered the routes table, I noticed that a few users (notably 173.69.26.192 and Maprail001S) had attempted to change the southern terminus of the West London route from  back to , while other users (Nordic Dragon and David Biddulph) kept on reverting their edits. This debate has finished over a week ago, however in order to avoid any similar disputes in the future, I have decided to explain why I have changed the terminus to East Croydon in the table.
On 13 December 2015, Southern have introduced a new timetable, which changed the routes of many off-peak services on the entire Southern network. This change includes the  and  services running to and from  instead of , a different stopping pattern for the half-hourly London -  service (so the fast service now stops at  instead of ), alternate Gatwick Express services being extended to and from , and a few other alterations. The Thameslink timetable also changed on the same day. The summary of all changes can be found here, and the more detailed version is available via a PDF link on that page.
Anyway, back to Croydon. Before December 2015, the West London route service indeed ran as far south as South Croydon. This is probably why Google Maps (which Maprail001S used as a reference) still showed a regular service from South Croydon. However, as part of this timetable change, these services have all been curtailed at East Croydon due to "low passenger numbers" south of that station. Unfortunately, Google Maps can often be outdated and show information that isn't true, and hasn't been for a while.
Regarding the argument that "bookings are available from South Croydon direct on this line": indeed, one can book tickets between South Croydon and, for example, . But that does not necessarily mean that there are regular direct services between these two stations. Similarly, one can book a ticket from South Croydon to , even though there are no services (either regular or peak-only) running directly between these two stations. Even better, I could book a ticket from  to  if I wanted to, despite the fact that I would have to change at least four times! Therefore, the fact that one can purchase a ticket on a given route does not suggest anything about the service on the particular route.
Finally, Maprail001S has pointed out that there are some morning services which run from South Croydon. I checked the timetable (number 20 on the Southern Railway website) and I found two northbound services running from South Croydon (departing at 07:47 and 08:05) and one southbound return (arriving at 18:36). However, the table is for regular off-peak services only and should not include any extra peak-time services, or peak-time service extensions. Also, two of the above peak-time services do not actually start/terminate at South Croydon but further south (the 07:47 service to  runs from  and the 18:36 service from  runs to ). For this reason, South Croydon is not included in the table, and neither are the other stations to the south.
I hope this cleared things up. Mvpo666 (talk) 17:28, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The West London route terminus 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: has added edits which I think contravene WP:NPOV. As I explained in my edit summary, firstly, the fact that GTR is a concession did not "emerge" - it has been covered many times and indeed is covered in Govia Thameslink Railway. Secondly, content about Grayling "refusing to intervene" was not in the Express source. The article says "Grayling will not intervene in the row over driver-operated trains, saying it is best resolved by the firm – owned by Govia Thameslink Railway – and rail unions." This is very different to the content added by 77.97.100.64, which implied that it was specifically his responsibility to resolve the situation. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 20:27, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have included the information about GTR being a concession in the main body of the article, I changed "At the conclusion of the Southern franchise in July 2015, the South Central franchise was merged into the Govia Thameslink Railway franchise" to "At the conclusion of the Southern franchise in July 2015, the South Central franchise was merged into the Govia Thameslink Railway franchise, which is run as a concession rather than a traditional franchise." The contract value is for GTR as a whole, not Southern so I removed that. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 20:48, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

text: Would you prefer concession was changed to management contract? I'm not sure what you mean about them not being "truly in the public domain" - could you clarify? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

text: I have changed concession to management contract and linked to the wikipedia article on it. Do you mean that the media isn't covering the dispute enough? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 21:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately at Wikipedia we can only report what reliable sources are saying. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 22:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV edits 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved - Clear consensus below for the page not to be moved. (non-admin closure) Class455 (talk|stand clear of the doors!)  10:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Southern (Govia Thameslink Railway) →  or Southern (GTR) – The long form of "Govia Thameslink Railway" is just too cumbersome to be typing or reading. Besides, most people would probably just think of GTR as Govia anyway, even though that is the parent company. Why not embrace a shortening, especially as this TOC is in the news a lot at the moment and getting higher traffic. Rcsprinter123   (yak) 15:54, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 8 January 2017 

message: Since the strikes have become a lot more significant, I have created a separate article on the strikes, as I feel they're notable enough to warrant its own stand alone article. The article can be found at Southern Railway Strike (2016-17). Class455 (talk|stand clear of the doors!) 00:12, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strikes article 

message: Recently, a user named  added a diagram of a Class 313 to the article. I noticed the diagram shows a 4-car set, whereas the Class 313 units are all 3 carriages long. Because of this, I'm not sure whether the diagram should be included in the article at all (since it's technically wrong). I'm sure someone with better editing/designing skills than me will eventually create a diagram that shows the correct carriage length, but until then, should the current diagram be retained or deleted? 86.134.27.8 (talk) 11:26, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the diagram - as you say the diagram is visibly incorrect. I don't generally mind these sorts of diagrams even though they are unsourced, but when they are obviously wrong they shouldn't be included. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Class 313 diagram 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello, I was just wondering if the London to Brighton route info is correct, hence the "Citation needed" caption.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suzono (talk • contribs) 08:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In a nutshell, we have no idea. Someone put that information in, we assume in good faith, but it cannot be verified because it is not supported by a citation. If you need to know for your own travel plans, then you should use Southern's own web site. Different services stop at different stations. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:08, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed for the London to Brighton route stops? 

message: Would anyone happen to know which set of tracks the 1tph service to Caterham uses? (the one that was shared as a 2tph with a route to Tattenham Corner before I split the rows) This would help with differentiating it from the route via Peckham Rye since on the former, there doesn't appear to be any stops between London Bridge and East Croydon, and from there, both routes share the same stops. Jalen Folf (talk) 04:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  London Bridge - Caterham