Talk:Len Lakofka

message: This forum review of L1 has a response from Len with valuble info about his Lendore island campaign and the L series of modules, hopefully will be usefull to incorporate into this and related articles http://www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10766&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=fdb3d845a48616276cb2c1ab4dc84000 - Waza 05:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: An early D&D player doesn't come across as a notable fact. Nor does it fit with normal bio styles.
Similarly I am not sure if he is known as an author. So the introduction makes it seem like a non-notable person despite being very short.Tetron76 (talk) 12:54, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: POV introduction

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Lenard Lakofka. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.tomeoftreasures.com/tot_adnd/roguesgallery/lakofka.ht
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100910002030/http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=2440 to http://pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=2440
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've been watching the back-and-forth on this page for the last week. 
The difficulty here isn't that we all know he died (because he did), or that anyone thinks he didn't.  Obviously, it's the Wikipedia:Verifiability.
I don't think any of the editors who've engaged in repeated Undo's and Reverts intend any disrespect toward Len, it's about Wikipedia standards for citation.
This is all kind of crappy to not be able to verify his passing and validate it for us as fans.  But, it has it's own standards, and we don't get to break the rules - we follow them, or else we risk things like blocking and banning from system admins. 
* The "Tenkar's Tavern" link which has been reverted to at least a couple of times is not verifiable.  While many of us know Tenkar, an editor has already pointed out the article is literally self-referential to this page - it cites Wikipedia as the source; therefore, we can't use it as a source on Wikipedia.  Wikipedia is not a reliable source
* While Shanon Appelcline is a noted author and much respected in the field, the article is mostly about the person and career and doesn't include citation for the actual death. Repeating the account doesn't count as verification by Wikipedia standards.
* InsideEko, FuneralNearMe, and FatalDeaths are all equally spam sites and are not reliable sources.
* DMmagazine.com literally says, "sad news was circulated among gamers", making it clear it's essentially just "we heard a thing on social media".
* Reddit, FB, Twitter, etc. are social media and aren't considered reliable by Wikipedia.
* Canonfire, the Piazza, Dragon's Foot, Greyhawkery, GHGrognard, et al. are forums and blogs, and also don't meet Wikipedia standards.  
 
It's becoming troublesome to watch editors repeatedly undoing reverts despite multiple authors including "" in the infobox.  It's being willfully ignored and is now risking venturing toward devolving into disruptive editing and Edit warring.  
I'd like to see new links discussed here on the Talk page and find a source we can all agree is enough.  Wikipedians and fans alike. 
We all want to see Len's death acknowledged, but this is amounting to having to watch people argue with each other at someone's funeral.  --IcarusATB (talk) 18:26, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Watching "Edit Warring" - the latest realityTV 

message: Given that the Appelgate article ends with "Roleplaying has lost another of its founders. My condolences to friends, family, and fans", it is pretty obvious that Appelgate confirms Lakofka's death, although he does not list a date of death. Can we all agree that apparently Lakofka died in 2020 and at least change "(born 1944)" to "(1944–2020)", citing the Appelgate article as RS? Guinness323 (talk) 19:00, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that much is fair. BOZ (talk) 19:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Shit, this *sucks*.  I know I'm gonna end up being "that guy" in this conversation - but, unless we can get Appelcline or Jay "Lord Gosumba" Scott (the original source) to tell us where the information came from, we might have to wait for something like an obituary from family/friend/whatever.   I, too, would give Appelcline the benefit of the doubt, considering they're a gaming historian. Normally, Appelcline is incredibly dilligent about citation in reviews and such.  But it's Wikipedia's standards, not mine.  As it stands, Appelcline's statement just doesn't meet any kind of verifiability standard linked above.  They're simply reporting what they've heard elsewhere and not citing it. I know it's shitty, y'all.     I've contacted Jay Scott asking him to help us find out about an obituary or something.  Perhaps someone can reach out to Appelcline? --IcarusATB (talk) 22:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: If we can't state the exact date of death, how about the YEAR of death

message: It's only been a week, more or less.  Until we get an official obituary, perhaps we can come up with wording we all agree is true (like what's been suggested) and after we've come to a consensus add a  or  tag to it, with a note in the code that it cannot be an  or there's  or they'll be marked as such.  --IcarusATB (talk) 22:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, you are not wrong! I have gone to Appelcline here and there to verify things, but since Lord Gosumba was apparently the first person to report this, let's give him a chance to respond - let us know what he says. If he does not get back to you, then I will reach out to Appelcline. BOZ (talk) 05:11, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Another source to check would be Dyson Logos, who posted a tweet about Lakofka's death at 3:08 pm on Oct 23: "My friends, cast your Tiny Huts one more time for our friend Lenard Lakofka, the player of Leomund and creator of the spell. He was active, political, and still deeply involved in talking D&D even last week when we last spoke. This morning his fight with cancer ended." Guinness323 (talk) 07:06, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion "Citation Needed" and "Unreliable Source"

message: :: It has already been established upthread that the Appelcline article was posted within 72 hours of the celebrity death and is based on an unverified fan report.  It is not an obituary.  It's a career review, and there are no citations to verify Len's death. 
:: Yes, Appelcline is a games historian and very, very well-respected in the field ... but, that article doesn't meet any of the Wikipedia:Verifiability standards.  Just because they're famous doesn't mean they're infallible.  It just means they're repeating what they read.  It also doesn't mean that we don't like Appelcline, or that Len didn't die. It's not about trying to "prove" he's living.   ... it means Wikipedia has citation standards.
:: --IcarusATB (talk) 17:13, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Repeating Unverified Links

message: Since there wasn't ever any resolution to any primary source for Len's death, I've looked into it some more.  Apparently, California has changed its procedure, especially now that so much is done online during/after the pandemic.
And now, they have a direct link to a particular online service which they do online orders through.
So, largely because I am the owner of GreyhawkOnline.com, I decided Len's passing shouldn't be a controversy, and that he deserves an official citation on Wikipedia.  
I've ordered an "informational death certificate", and will in the not-too-distant future be able to offer a citation/annotation to the date, cause, location, etc. of Len's passing.  I'll post details when it arrives. ——IcarusATB (talk) 15:14, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update re: Death Certificate 

message: The State of California certainly took their time, but it finally came.  The final information from Lakofka's death certificate has been entered, which included an actual full birth date, specific cause of death, and other details of his passing including the disposition of his ashes to his husband Gary. 
If anyone knows a better  for citing a death certificate for the <ref> (since I didn't use one), please let me know or apply one for us. —IcarusATB (talk) 21:48, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last update re: Death Certificate