Talk:Hockney–Falco thesis

message: The Art Renewal Center is a significant organization, and it is a non-profit.  I'm going to re-add the bit about it that was deleted, as the ARC has been among the most vocal critics of the Hockney-Falco thesis and the idea that things have gone downhill in art since the Old Masters.--ragesoss 17:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well.  I think it's unfair to say it's simply a poster sales website, as it has a sizable gallery (the largest online, if its website it to be believed, though Wikimedia Commons is no doubt larger in terms of number of images) with paintings that are generally available at the highest resolution of anywhere online.  But I'll defer to your judgment about not mentioning it here.--ragesoss 22:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it has "…zero status in academic art historical debate…," then it has high, elevated, and lofty status among people who appreciate art. A look at today's artworld will indicate the effect that academics have had on art. As for its articles, "…you won't find them cited in the academic debate." This gives the articles greater value. To say that "…It is essentially a poster sales website…" is subjective, condescending, snobbish, dismissive, exclusive, and patronizing. As much as I disagree with the Art Renewal Center, I believe that they have a right to be mentioned in the article.Lestrade 23:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) I think refs are ok, but I just don't think it should be singled out in the text. Nice article, btw. I've linked to it a few times.Johnbod 23:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Reductio ad Hitlerum... --86.135.176.173 (talk) 21:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Art Renewal Center

message: I'm surprised to see no mention of the weird anamorphic skull in The Ambassadors in this article. When I first saw the painting, I thought it one of the most bizarre works of art I've ever seen, considering the context. It's like something out of surrealism, except it was painted in the 16th century (quite apart from *how* it was produced, the entire idea that this warped and stretched image of a skull could just be inserted into a portrait and the artist not be lynched as a madman is confusing to me, but that's kinda besides the point).
Now I see this Camera Obscura theory as being pretty much nonsense, but the skull in that painting definitely gives me pause for thought as to whether or not optical devices were used by artists in the past... I see another editor mentions the painting above, but not the skull. Has Hockney not ever talked about the skull in the painting at all? --86.135.176.173 (talk) 22:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  the skull in The Ambassadors 

message: I would sort out the following sentence, but I can't work out what it should say: "Critics of the Hockney-Falco theory claim that the quality of mirrors, optical glass and for the period before 1550 and a lack of textual evidence (excluding paintings themselves as "documentary evidence") of their use for image projection during this period casts doubt on the theory." Thehalfone (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That got garbled in the recent reorganization of the Criticism section.  I think I've straightened it out.--ragesoss (talk) 15:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garbled sentence 

message: In this article it says that Hockney points to three paintings as evidence to his theory. Could someone with knowledge on the subject clarify if this is just him saying that the pictures are too good, or if there is other evidence that suggests that these paintings are the result of lens' etc? Quoth 31 (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  further explanation 

message: Many art historians rebut this theory, but notably the ones that use diagnostic as a tool of identification are prone to agree to this since it's neither anachronistic nor out of character for the named artists. 
I think another person worth mentioning is Dr.Lapucci for her work on Caravaggio and how she made her publications available on her website http://robertalapucci.com
Her ideas are briefly explained in this article 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/4968509/Caravaggio-used-photography-to-create-dramatic-masterpieces.html
In my opinion one of the strongest points in favor of these claims is the multiple direction of the shadows of the objects sitting on the table due in theory to refocusing during different times of the day.
I think it is absolutely worth mentioning here.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.30.22 (talk) 15:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Art Historians 

message: I have cut down the entry to the essentials. The whole dicussion section is a mere hype and pure fringe and as needed as a micro probe analysis of pigments on the Shroud of Turin. You dont need a Walter McCrone to reject it, just have a look in the 1929 Encyclopedia britannica.  Serten II (talk) 23:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The assertion that this is just "hype", and the cutting down of the article and making the first section "Rejection", looks like pure personal opinion; I've undone it William M. Connolley (talk) 19:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The theory is widely rebutted http://www.diatrope.com/stork/HockneyTheory.html This needs to be in the lede but lets keep it encyclopedic J8079s (talk) 19:36, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The hypothesis itself has never been sound, since Hockney didnt invent anything new. Don Ihde is far from being a art historian and as well far from being an amateur, he deaks with early technology and its epistemic background. WMC: You never seem not to read the sources that you delete. The ridicule and as well the characterization as a "hype" is direct from Ihde. J8079s The diatrope link is a private website, no reliable source. Serten II (talk) 19:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Hockney thesis is that the renaissance advances in art were "primarily the result of optical aids" as is currently written in the lead. No one claims that Hockney discovered the camera obscura. The crucial thing is that it was necessary for the advances, and to my knowledge no one had claimed that before. I do not see any reason for your proposed and reverted changes. Mlewan (talk) 10:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Link to  I agree that there is hype but we need to present it in an encyclopedic manner J8079s (talk) 21:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, then its about presentation of an important fact. Point is, I dont care much about the science of the hypers and I don't have to. both sides ignored existing studies and old encyclopedic wisdom. The way sourced content is being deleted (instead of improved) in obusive manner ays something about WP as well. Serten II (talk) 22:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Downsizing / Tags  

message: Moves like this need to be discussed and agreed first. I've undone it William M. Connolley (talk) 19:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: MOves can be done. If you revert it, it may be discussed. Done and dusted. Serten II (talk) 19:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unmove 

message: Don Ihde ridiculed the "hype" around the hypothesis with reference to Albrecht Dürer, Leonardo da Vinci and his personal copy of the 1929 Encyclopedia Britannica. Don Ihde Art Precedes Science: or Did the Camera Obscura Invent Modern Science? In  Instruments in Art and Science: On the Architectonics of Cultural Boundaries in the 17th Century Helmar Schramm, Ludger Schwarte, Jan Lazardzig, Walter de Gruyter, 2008 The latter contains an extensive article on the Camera obscura and mentions Leon Battista Alberti's as first (documented) user of the device as early as 1437. A pinhole camera doesnt need a lense or mirror to fonction and to allow for imaging. There is abundant evidence for widespread use of various technical devices at least in the Renaissance and e.g. in Early Netherlandish painting.
In Jan van Eyck's 1434 painting Arnolfini Portrait a convex mirror of suitable quality is clearly visible in the centre of the painting. Giants of Delft: Johannes Vermeer and the Natural Philosophers : the Parallel Search for Knowledge During the Age of Discovery Robert D. Huerta Bucknell University Press, 01.01.2003, the book mentions abundant proof and does not refer to the hypothesis and the hype around it at all Van Eyck also left his signature above this mirror, showing the importance of the tool. The painting as such shows a Crown glass window in the upper left side, a rather expensive luxury at the time. Van Eyck was rather fascinated by glass and its qualities, which was as well of high symbolic importance for his contemporaries.Girl in a Green Gown: The History and Mystery of the Arnolfini Portrait Carola Hicks Random House, 29.09.2011
The foundation for optical instruments in Europe were laid in the Medieveal age. It took till the Renaissance and the early modern time to improve quality and availability of mirrors, lenses and glasses to allow for broader use in art.Mirror Mirror: A History of the Human Love Affair with Reflection Mark Pendergrast
But there is and was no much doubt among actual experts in the field that Renaissance in both art and science was embodied through technologies, with the camera obscura being one favorite optical toy.
::There are also the glass beads to the left of the mirror.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.205.246 (talk) 18:40, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Section  

message: Critisism sections are always signs of bad articles. We have to differentiate between the controversies on the conferences e.g., which take the thesis for serious (and new) and the statements and studies that show that the thesis was neither new no controversial till the ealry 20th century. The current section is not useable. Serten II (talk) 09:44, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critisism 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070220210253/http://www.optics.arizona.edu:80/SSD/FAQ.html to http://www.optics.arizona.edu/ssd/FAQ.html
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090625201014/http://www.optics.arizona.edu:80/SSD/FAQ.html to http://www.optics.arizona.edu/ssd/faq.html#Objections
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 15:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Hockney–Falco thesis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090625201014/http://www.optics.arizona.edu/ssd/faq.html#Objections to http://www.optics.arizona.edu/ssd/faq.html#Objections
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have included some information that involve scholarly research, which appears to confirm the theory. I have also added some citations. Let me know if you have questions about the edit. Thanks. Darwin Naz (talk) 04:47, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update