Talk:Red Orchestra (espionage)

message: Just to identify the players: V. E. Tarrant's Red Orchestra (New York : John Wiley & Sons, 1996) names the prosecuter as Doktor Manfred Roeder of Oberstgerischtsrat, Air Region 3, nicknamed "Hitler's Bloodhound"; the Pres of the Reichskriegsgericht that approved the prosecution brief as Adm Max Bastian, KM; & the defense counsel as Drn Kurt Valentin, Rudolf Behse, Henz Bergman, & Bernhard Schwarz; the trial began 14 Dec 1942 in Berlin.
For what it's worth, Sûreté dubbed Sov agent Isaiah Bir "Phantomas" for his ability to disappear. Leopold Tripper, GRU Illegals Rezident for Western Europe in WW2, co-founded a company to export trenchcoats. (Dagger optional?) 
Trekphiler 14:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Agents

message: I think the article needs a section of the commonly mentioned stories (myths?) that surround the Red Orchestra. As the article now stands, there's not a word of 'Werther', supposed to be a source in the highest echelons of Wehrmacht sending stream of highly accurate intelligence to the USSR through 'Lucy' in Switzerland. The true identity of 'Werther' is often mentioned as the greatest unsolved mystery of the WWII, opening door to much speculation. Even, or rather if, the whole story is a  myth, it should be mentioned in this article. - Mikko H. 10:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Werther?

message: I wrote in the german article about the red orchestra, and was a little proud of it. But now I see, the english article is even better. Please tell me - where did you get the information - especially about the Shulze-Boysen/Harnack group? Shug 20:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jealousy

message: The Trench coat company mentioned above was called The Foreign Excellent Trenchcoat Company. Source: -The Great Game by Leopold Trepper. SamWhitey (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Trenchcoat Company

message: Should there be a list of the members? SamWhitey (talk) 20:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: List?

message: Is anyone else of the opinion that the computer game should be in a different article? Especially because the game has an article already. SamWhitey (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Computer Game

message: * The Rote Kapelle discusses three groups. Two of those groups are already represented within the article and most of the support structure for this article is already represented in the original article. It is a very small article, and duplicates information found in the primary article in the two paragraphs. The people involved were based in Switzerland and weren't identified by Germany until well after the war was finished, so didn't have the impact. This doesn't need a seperate article, the original needs expansion. scope_creep (talk) 15:32, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Red Three (espionage)]] 

message: ===Dud ref===
The Red Three () was the Switzerland section of Red Orchestra (code name: Foreign Excellent Raincoat Company), the espionage network of the Soviet Union in Western Europe, from 1930 until the end of World War II.The Ultimate Spy Book, by Dorling Kinderslay Ltd., London), The world of secret services, H. Keith Melton; ; p. 38 „The Red Orchestra“; Switzerland, Red Three.
* Dud Ref. ISBN is not correct. scope_creepTalk 01:10, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: TODO

message: The Red Three () was the Switzerland section of Red Orchestra (code name: Foreign Excellent Raincoat Company), the espionage network of the Soviet Union in Western Europe, from 1930 until the end of World War II.The Ultimate Spy Book, by Dorling Kinderslay Ltd., London), The world of secret services, H. Keith Melton; ; p. 38 „The Red Orchestra“; Switzerland, Red Three.
* Dud Ref. ISBN is not correct. scope_creepTalk 01:10, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Dud ref

message: The chart doesn't have Greta Kuckhoff in it. scope_creepTalk 10:58, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Schulze-Boysen Chart

message: Hi Fellow Wikipedians. Does anybody have any issues with renaming the article to Red Orchestra. I would like to remove the espionage part. I dont think it is needed from disamg position. Thanks. scope_creepTalk 10:54, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Name Change

message: Don't know how these fit in. Herrnstadt himself, not mentioned in Nelson 2009,nor Brysac 2002, nor original CIA listings of what constituted the Red Orchestra. Ilse Stöbe is linked to Von Scheliha who is considered part of the group. Gerhard Kegel is certainly not. Not mentioned in any context although obviously important at some other place, as has a de article. scope_creepTalk 13:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections that are not needed at the moment

message: * on Sophia Poznanska. For separate article. scope_creepTalk 15:01, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Some ext link Sophia Poznanska

message: Moved here until I can write the article.
scope_creepTalk 19:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Diagram of Jeffremov Group

message: The article needs re-writing for clarity. Kdammers (talk) 00:31, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turgid 

message: I see in the section titled "Unmasking" there is this passage:
The first radio transmission that exposed them, was either intercepted on the 3.58am on 26 June 1941[71] or 3.58am on 26 August 1941 [70] (sources vary) and was the first of many over months that were to be intercepted by the Funkabwehr. The first message received at the intercept station in Zelenogradsk had the format: Klk from Ptx... Klk from Ptx... Klk from Ptx... 2606. 03. 3032 wds No. 14 qbv.[71] 
However, the intercept clearly happened on June 26th.  This is the clue:  Klk from Ptx... 2606. 03. 3032 wds No. 14 qbv
That's clearly a badly formatted message preamble that should read KLK DE PTX  2606 0330 32 WDS NO. 14 QBV.
In plain language, that would be "KLK FROM (likely to be 'V', less likely 'DE') PTX", then the date (2606 = 26 day, 06 month). Then the message origination time 0330 = 03:30am which matches up well with the intercept time of 3:48am. Next is the number of "words" (ie., groups) in the message (32 WDS), followed by the message serial number itself, which is 14 (NO. 14), followed by the Q signal QBV.   I think that probably should read "QRV", meaning "Are You Ready", and it was a transcription mistake from a poor image or something, but that I'm less certain of.
Regardless of the meaning of QBV, the message was clearly sent on June 26.  If it had been sent in August, the date group would have read 2608.
Dittybopper (talk) 18:40, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi  How are you? Really good of you to come in and check that and notice the mistake. It doesn't surprise that there is a mistake in it, all. There is so many versions of it, for all of it, its like the man who wasn't there.  I will check the references and we can change it. That's good, I can clean it up and get rid of another, sources vary tag. scope_creepTalk 21:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Intercepted Radio Contact. 

message: p.200 pickup of german folk by abwehr. scope_creepTalk 21:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Perrault

message: * Brysac p.311. NKVD, and Beria saw the reports, and discarded them. 
* Brysac p.307 Discovery report. Only two addresses. Need to reformulate that section. No wonder it doesn't make any sense. Try and find the original ref. 
* Brysac p.439 
Done on 27 March 2021.  scope_creepTalk 15:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Espionage section

message: See the bottom of page four of this 2011 CIA document.
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB493/docs/intell_ebb_025.PDF
"Rote Kapelle (Red Orchestra) was the German code name for a highly effective Soviet military espionage operation of some 118
agents which was run in German-controlled Europe during the war. Rote Drei refers to three GRU agents in Switzerland who were connected to the Rote Kapelle network and were rolled up in 1943." Was Kisevalter Nash? (talk) 07:55, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  How goes it? It is cool that somebody is taking an interest in it. Certainly, there was a block of Soviet agents working in Switzerland, Belgium, France, the Netherlands and to a certain extent in Germany, and other countries. They weren't all Soviet agents, or working to advance Soviet spying. People came into the organisation for all sorts of reasons, mostly from a resistance angle, all types, all ages, all parts of society. Some of them thought they were working for the Soviets, when they were working for the British and occasionally the Americans. The core part of it, the Gestapo and the Abwehr, combined into the Sonderkommando Rote Kapelle, decided to tar everybody who was associated with that group, with the same brush, for expediency and political reasons/national security, but many of them weren't of that type. They were peripheral to the Soviet effort. That idea of the Gestapo/Abwehr was kept alive during the cold war right into the 1980's but it was only when the Berlin wall fell and the archives were opened in the east and Moscow later, was a more balanced and nuanced approach could be taken.  Certainly, there was a large block of folk who were working for the communists and the Soviets, but there was a large block of folk, in the hundreds to the thousands, who were looking to resist, and that was one way of doing it, mainly because the Soviets didn't leave Berlin until 1941. So that 2 years of the early war, was sufficient and easy to pass documents across to the Soviet embassy.  The CIA's approach is based on work done by the British in the late 1940's. The British MI5/MI6 produced a huge report on the Rote Kapelle, and most of what the CIA did is based on that document. As a spy organisation, they never did the work to update their view, based on new research, as it is outside their purview. For them, it's ancient history, even though at the time it was important. They won't update it. It is not important to them.  For us, who can look through reams of new books, new historical research. reports, archival material, and so on, a newer view can be formulated, based on real research. That is the approach the German Wikipedia takes, and it's them that work with professional historians, that are driving this.  I hope that helps.scope_creepTalk 09:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Another Soviet operation? I wouldn't be surprised. The network around Leopold Trepper is the true Soviet network, for this article. That bit that fully Soviet. The bit that this article covers is just one facet of Soviet intelligence during and after the war, in Europe. This guy here, Henry Robinson (spy) had a bunch of documents, called the Robinson Papers, that were analysed after the war by the British. They counted 5000 Soviet agents in the UK during and before the war. I know from experience, that as soon as you go to the edge of your knowledge on this, you come up against other networks that were perhaps visible, but never discovered. Rote Drei in Switzerland, for example. Most of it was never discovered. The Kesaris book, referenced in the article has about 30 countries in it, all with Soviet espionage networks of one form or another. It seems endless. Looking at your document, e.g. Richard Kauder The British National Archives have a document on him. . Looking at the description, it seems to be another network. I could seriously work on new articles on this for rest of my life, but it is difficult ferreting the information out. It seems genuine. There is an article on Operation Scherhorn which covers the other side. Why don't you do an article on Richard Kauder. There is stuff on Ira LONGIN  That is two good articles you could write. scope_creepTalk 20:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  You're wrong to say Red Orchestra wasn't controlled by Soviet Communists 

message: * Add in the idiomatic translations. 80% done.  done on this apart from last one.
* Put the last reference in sfn format.
* Expand the Rote Drei somewhat. CIA last sections.  Just need to finish the arrests and death bit. 
* Finish from February 1942 to arrest of Trepper in the main The Robinson Group section. Lyon's work. Too minor for summary article. 
* Start and finish the Netherlands section. Goolouze, Winterink, Group Hilda 
* Summary section sourced to Guillaume Bourgeois. Still to do. Need book. 
* Mention the Knochel group linked to Dann Goulooze. 
 scope_creepTalk 09:09, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: To finish

message: I'm not sure what's intended with this sentence, after 'and since'?
"After his marriage to Libertas Schulze-Boysen née Haas-Heye in 1936, the couple collected young intellectuals from diverse backgrounds, including (list), and since Schulze-Boysen held twice-monthly meetings at his Charlottenburg atelier for thirty-five to forty people in what was considered a Bohemian circle of friends." Neils51 (talk) 01:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'll take a look at it. It does look odd when its on its own.   scope_creepTalk 09:17, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh..., by 'since' you are meaning 'thereafter'? Neils51 (talk) 20:07, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure but it sounds better.   scope_creepTalk 22:06, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: ; No sources. ill links at best.
* Ilse Schaeffer Part of the core Harro Schulze-Boysen group.Sculptor so probably linked to brockdorf, but no sources.
* Hans Lautenschläger Zero on Hans. No Stolpersteine but has single book ref in the main resistance handbook 
* Else Imme De article is unsourced. Rulit.me ref proves she exist but not much beyond. Looks like family added article. No stolpersteine either. 
* Hansheinrich Kummerow (no sources, just the de article) 
* Friedrich Schauer Architect who was part of the Schürmann-Horster group. Zero real sources. Minor in the scheme of things.
I have done a before on these and there isn't much in terms of sources. I won't be working on creating articles for these.  scope_creepTalk 11:19, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Took out Ina Lautenschläger, who is Ina Ender. De article available.  scope_creepTalk 09:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Red orchestra folk who don't have articles.