Talk:Curse and mark of Cain

message: This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Religioustolerance.org

message: Something that might be of some use for the article is a section on uses of Cain in pop culture.  I know that he was a fairly prominent side character in The Sandman and its companion series The Dreaming, and that in those series the mark was depicted as a ring on his forehead that was either darker or more pale than his skin (depending on the story).  Just a thought.  Willbyr (talk | contribs) 16:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A popular culture section is a wonderful idea, Willbyr.  The mark of Cain played a dominant role in the series Supernatural, for example.  (Cain transfers the mark to Dean so that Dean could wield the first blade against the dæmon Abbadon, but the mark's power is too strong and it turns Dean into a dæmon.  Sam seeks the witch Rowena's help in removing the mark from Dean, and they are successful.  But, as Death tells Dean, the mark was a seal designed by God to lock away His sister, the Darkness, which he'd given to His favourite son, Lucifer.  The mark corrupted Lucifer, who then passed it on the Cain.  When Sam and Rowena remove the mark from Dean, it releases the Darkness.  (Indeed, it was this sequence of events that led God to come out of anonymity.  (God and the Darkness eventually reconcile.)))  allixpeeke (talk) 14:08, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Depictions of Cain and the mark in popular culture

message: As I read this article, I get the strong impression that we are talking about specific US-centric religious interpretations of the story of Cain, which were used as support for racist practices over the last couple of centuries.  Would this be a fair summary?  If so, I would think it would be an improvement to put an overview in the leading paragraph to this effect.Trishm 09:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overview? 

message: This section has a number of errors in it.
Under the list of "black" individuals in the Bible Job is included.Neither Jewish lore or other lore I've ever uncovered lists Job as such. His location in the land of Uz is generally believed to be eastern Israel or Jordan.  This should as least have a reference to where it came from. -- Black arrow 09:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt a discussion on www.CreationFoundation.co.uk is sufficient to show verifiably that this theory is notable within the community of creationism "experts". If notability can be established, it can go in the article. Without really looking into the issue, I kind of doubt whether this theory has yet passed the threshhold from crackpot theory to crackpot-theory-with-a-following, which is required for inclusion in Wikipedia. COGDEN 21:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Christian reactions against racial interpretations

message: Don't we need some material on earlier interpretations?  I think I read somewhere that some ancient or medieval text said the mark of Cain was a horn, and Beowulf includes a bunch of monsters as Cain's descendants. 74.227.173.139 16:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-racial interpretations 

message: The mormon fundimentalists are not I repeate not a small branch of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are not associated with the church in any shape,form,or fashion.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.102.163.132 (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mormon fundimentalists  

message: The verses from the Bible were just changed from the King James Version to a more-recent translation.  We should decide on which translation should be used before someone reverts it back. — Val42 03:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Which translation?

message: Is it possible that the mark of Cain speaks about an emotion rather than a physical mark on the body or color of skin.  Consider the fact that no one had ever been killed before.  So the mark of Cain has to be any act of aggression, anger, frustration, jealousy, envy, deceit, corruption.  Which prior to Cain actions had never been seen before.  This transcends race for we are all "Cain until we are Able" literally.  Thus any act other than a Godly act is an act of Cain, which is immediately recognized.  KiNazir (talk) 16:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A thought

message: While it certainly has some relevance here, why is the bulk of this article concerned with the history of racial discrimination by religious groups?  Perhaps that should be given an article on its own and only brielfy mentioned, with a link, in this article, which is about the mark of Cain and not the misunderstandings of that mark in regards to race.
74.193.145.25 (talk) 13:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Racial Themes?

message: Is there any reason that these are two separate sections? The second (LDS) section seems to rely over strongly on quotations and largely covers the same information as the Mormon section.  Im not very familiar with the subject and would prefer not to be the one to the merging, but I might if no one else is willing to do it. Black Platypus (talk) 00:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Separate Mormonism and LDS sections

message: can be found here:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/exploring/The_Death_of_Cain._The_Worlds_First_Murder3_Epilogue1.asp  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.112.150 (talk) 23:26, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting Article on the Subject

message: Has anyone heard the anthropological concept that Cain was a pre-sapien and that he bore some ancestral trait like a sagittal keel or subnasal prognathism?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.45.92 (talk) 19:43, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I too have heard he could've been represenative of the Neanderthal race. In this theory, the mark would be the big brow ridge that was the racial trait they had or maybe their great brute strength.
Another idea is that since they didn't have refined animal skins, and they had ridges on their fingers while young like chimps, they could've been more hairy on average than modern man. This, along with the other two traits above, would cause people to think they were rough and tough and not want to mess with them.137.118.100.224 (talk) 04:23, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sagittal keel 

message: From a religious studies and anthropological point of view the Mormon/LDS sects are branches of Protestantism and should be included in the religious response of that overall section. I realise that adherents and counter cultists will both disagree, but those are statements of faith and these are intended to be NPOV articles so how about we stick with the academic classifications?--Leewsb (talk) 16:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include the Mormonism/LDS sections as subsections under the Protestant section 

message: The section includes a list of claimed arguments against the racist interpretation of the mark of Cain, but none of these are sourced. While it's obvious that these arguments have been made, in their current form they read like an amateur list from a drive-by editor. The individual arguments need to be sourced and attributed within the prose.99.39.88.159 (talk) 14:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern opinion on racial interpretations 

message: I have put up a sockpuppet investigation for 76.104.33.28, because he is clearly 67.172.216.127 continuing his POV pushing with the racist bullshit verbatim outside of his ban.  Just letting everyone know.  Ian.thomson (talk) 23:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to thank Shirik for quickly banning him, and he as offered to semi-protect the page if that anon finds another IP address.  Ian.thomson (talk) 23:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding 76.104.33.28 

message: Hi, folks.  Been a looooooong time since I've edited at WP (2-3 years) and I'm unfamiliar with the new tagging system for OR, NPOV, citations, etc.  But there are quite a few instances of leading language and weasel words in this article, such as "One must note" and "It must be remembered".  Must one?  Must it?  Or how about we just stick to relating the facts and letting people decide what is notable?
I'm not sure what is the currently approved system for tagging and noting these concerns.  Could someone please advise me on this?  Thanks.  Kasreyn (talk) 22:58, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leading language? 

message: It is asserted the "mark" was an "act of irony" by God.
In what way was it "ironic"? It is not self-evident. Justification is required.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.36.68 (talk) 11:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually read the rest of the sentence: "As an act of irony, the curse by God focused strictly on neutralizing the benefits of Cain's primary skill, cultivating crops." Ian.thomson (talk) 14:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  How is it Ironic? 

message: The topic above is subjective, controversial and somewhat "weird" to be in any ecyclopedia.
Egyptians, Turks and Syrians are not black neither were they in biblical times. Wether true, this information has no relevance to the issues discussed in this article.
This passage should not be in the main article and I propose its exclusion.
Popotão (talk) 07:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent origin of Racial Interpretation 

message: Now first of all I will not be so arrogant as many have to proclaim to have all of the answers but this is just a deductive theory. The most likely scenario based on biblical and scientific evidence and based on the Bibles version of the creation of man is that Able was actually the beginning of the white race rather than Cain being the beginning of the black race.  
Modern genetic and scientific discovery and the Bible says that life began in Africa in a hot region so if Adam and Eve were born of God in that region most likely they were of dark skin.  Because to my knowledge there have never been many caucasians that are native to Africa or the middle eastern region.  Therefore it is most likely that Adam and Eve were of darker skin and following that line of logic Able was actually the first white person rather than Cain being the first black person.  It has already been proven that Africa is the cradle of the birth of humanity.  So if there were some curse based on skin color (which I don't believe) the curse was upon Able not Cain.  Afterall think about what a curse it would be to be born with non pigmented skin in a hot region when humans were still hunter-gatherers. Even Jesus was described as having hair like wool, like Africans.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.190.169.138 (talk) 07:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll want to look over our reliable sourcing guidelines.  Wikipedia actually is not accepted as a source for Wikipedia, because it is user-generated and not stable.  Also, we don't take original research.  We just summarize what is already published.  Traditionally, Noah's son Japheth is considered the beginning of the white race, since the names of some of his kids sound kinda like certain Eurasian tribes.  Ian.thomson (talk) 12:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cain Was Not the Beginning of the Black Race, Able Was most likely the Beginning of the White Race 

message: There are currently three sections about Mormonism; an imbalance by volume alone. This has not been fixed in four years, according to the talk page. There are many unsupported statements related to Mormons and Baptists that should be edited. I intend to merge some sections and delete unsupported statements. --Yammie2009 (talk) 04:09, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll help...   — Jasonasosa 08:22, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time to organize the article. 

message: Do we really need a picture of protruding gonads on the page? Most of the people looking at this article are religious folks coming here for input on holy matters. Can we keep this article safe for work in respect of our religious audience? If this was an article dedicated to the discussion of the human body, nudity is understandable like on other areas of wikipedia. But on this page, where you have people offended by the presence of porn, it is uncalled for. --Thelazyleo (talk) 01:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Objection: According to the English Oxford dictionary, it defines pornography as "printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings." Although Vidal's statue does display gonads, I do not believe that its intention is to stimulate erotic feelings. It is more than just art, it is a historical statue that exists in the Tuileries Garden that was created by Catherine de Medicis after the French Revolution. The Cain statue was inaugurated in 1896. So, I argue that Vidal's Cain is not offensive to mainstream religious audiences and that wikipedia ought not placate to the 1% who might. Thanks,   — Jasonasosa 12:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lol, I didn't look into the context enough to understand you painted that green-skirted Neanderthal only to make a point about sculptured genitals, or I would have tried to come up with a more witty edit summary removing it. ;-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: lol... well at least someone found some humor in it. :)   — Jasonasosa 12:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Religious audiences don't have a problem with nudity, it's prudish audiences do.  Since most of our audience would be from nations with at least nominal Christian majorities, I'd guess our religious audiences would be more be worried about helping the poor and oppressed and fighting exploitation by wanna-be religious authorities.  Wait, damn, I guess we're not going to have much of a religious audience after all.  Ian.thomson (talk) 14:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statue of Cain cover image nudity vs religious audience 

message: This quote "Modern interpretation of the Hebrew verse 12 suggest that Cain went on to live a nomadic lifestyle as well as being excluded from the family unit.[" should probably be deleted.  The fact he lived in a family unit, had kids who developed all kinds of technology & etc. kind of render this "modern interpretation" moot.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Weedmic (talk • contribs) 13:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  wanderer? 

message: I won't add this to a section that needs clean-up, but when it gets cleaned-up, you should add The Skin of Our Teeth.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Skin_of_Our_Teeth
TeigeRyan (talk) 11:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional reference 

message: As Cain's name in Hebrew means "spear", has anyone considered the possibility that the "mark of Cain" might simply have been the "mark of a spear"? That is, either the wound-mark left by a spear; or perhaps the shape of a spear drawn indelibly on the skin. This, either as a talisman of protection, or the sign whereby Cain might be recognised and not harmed, though shunned by all. Nuttyskin (talk) 18:44, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting idea but I'm not sure you can get there grammatically from Genesis 4:12. Looks more like put - to/on cain - a mark — not put - mark - of cain. (See also Septuagint version.) In other words "Mark of Cain" might be a term which arose later — when? I don't know; and the answer to that question might also be germane to the article. G-Books search (, ) along these lines doesn't turn up the exact idea you're presenting. But you may be able to find more ideas about the nature of the mark, with some searching. groupuscule (talk) 19:54, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible meaning of the mark 

message: This has clearly been edited to cast LDS, and their 150-ish years of racial segregation, in a positive light. Please fix it. 70.30.100.138 (talk) 10:59, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Priesthood ban" bias 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Curse and mark of Cain. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.zohar.com/zohar.php?portion=2§ion=69
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050311114146/http://www.emmetttillmurder.com/Ebony%201956.htm to http://www.emmetttillmurder.com/Ebony%201956.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110713192439/http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.com/howtoreach.html to http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.com/howtoreach.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:27, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Curse and mark of Cain. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060625205845/http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefAuxArt.aspx?refid=1741580587 to http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefAuxArt.aspx?refid=1741580587
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:02, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Curse and mark of Cain. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051122235710/http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neithertitle.htm to http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/neither/neithertitle.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The idea goes that one meaning behind the Cain and Abel story is that Cain represents H. sapiens sapiens and Abel represents H. sapiens neanderthalensis (or maybe another group). The former appears to have been around for 300kya, before the true Neanderthalers appeared, and we apparently tampered with gardening and small scale farming 40kya, around the time Neanderthals were died out and absorbed into the larger population. Neanderthals were nomads, hunters and gatherers, and may have tended herds (no evidence yet though). Adam and Eve would be early H. sapien groups like Heidelbergensis/Rhodesiansis (don't know how to spell that) or Homo erectus. Another idea I haven't heard is that when Cain was exiled he wandered until he built a city, much like how H. sapiens sapiens wandered all over the globe and started the first known cities. Nod is east of Eden, which was in the middle east, and the garden's rivers stretched all the way to Cush, where we find the first H. sapiens sapiens. Cain could've been hanging around those regions till he moved east to southwest/central Asia, which was great for growing food (fertile crescent went from Persia to Egypt/Cush). Meanwhile, Neanderthals lived in western Eurasia, in Europe and west/central Asia. Lots of those places have mountains and steppes with goats and probably sheep to tend.
Even though I don't entirely buy this idea, it does have some interesting points.137.118.100.224 (talk) 04:18, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speculation on if Cain and Abel represent early human species/subspecies 

message: would such an entry be out of place here?
two examples I can think of are: Supernatural, the mark is a plot point in one season. In Vampire: The Masquerade franchise it is the origin of vamparism, although the prominent scholar in the series believes it's simply an allegory for the shift away from hunting to agriculture.
I'm sure there are others.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.137.196 (talk) 19:42, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mark of Cain in popular culture 

message: Having most of the article be about use of the Mark of Cain to justify discrimination is clearly WP:UNDUE. Ken Arromdee (talk) 20:29, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight