Talk:Thylacoleo carnifex

message: --Francisco Valverde 23:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

message: Should this page be merged with Thylacoleo or vice versa?
(Scotness (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed in the past here, where it was decided that a merger was not necessary since this page is about the species Thylacoleo carnifex, where as Thylacoleo is about the genus. What is required, instead, is a tidying of Thylacoleo to remove species specific information, or at least to clarify when the species T. carnifex is being referred to exclusively. If you still believe a merger is necessary, I'll be happy to continue discussion with you. T.carnifex (talk) 10:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge? 

message: If this species was evolving for 24 million years than how many species were there? Surely there cant be just 1 species all that time? Enlil Ninlil 02:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article states that they became extinct "about 50,000 years ago, at the end of the last ice age".... I thought the last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago? Can someone please clarify? Thanks :) ntennis 02:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are right, and ice age says so as well, so I am taking it out. Argent Cerulean 04:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many species? 

message: I've got a couple of good pictures lined up, but I'm not sure on the lagalities of using the photos. Is there anyway of using them if they're copyrighted? T.carnifex (talk) 01:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos and Pics 

message: Does Iblardi have a reference for the meaning of Thylacoleos name, other than a latin dictionary? I know, it being a dictionary gives correct (to the authors knowledge, anyway) grammar and root-words, but the generally accepted version should appear on the page.
http://www.parks.sa.gov.au/publish/groups/public/@parks/@uppersoutheast/documents/all/005605.pdf has "comes from thylacis meaning pouched, leo meaning lion and carnifex, to butcher."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by T.carnifex (talk • contribs) 09:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thylacoleo is simply a regular Latinized combination of Greek thylakos (bag, pouch) and Greek/Latin leo(n): thylaco-leo. Thylakis does exist, but this is a diminutive of thylakos. I haven't found a form thylakis (or thylacis, for that matter) meaning 'pouched' in Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon. Carnifex is a common noun (not a verb, as the source makes it appear) which basically would mean "meat-maker" (caro, gen. carnis + facere) but is normally used to indicate someone who makes slaughtering his business, i.e. a henchman, a tormentor, a murderer. The dictionaries quoted are authoritative. Also note that the form carnae, which was mentioned in the original explanation, is non-existent. Iblardi (talk) 09:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is simply your interpretation of latin grammar and spelling, which may well be sound. Do you have a source which quotes this as the roots of the name as Owen described?T.carnifex (talk) 11:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, no. We are simply dealing with words which can be looked up in dictionaries. The first is a new, but perspicuous compound (compare also: ), and the second is an existing word. I think there is no need to assume that Owen re-invented his word roots, and the mentioning of "carnae" made me edit without hesitation. But if you can quote Owen giving a word-for-word translation of his name (rather than a paraphrasis), this would of course be excellent. Iblardi (talk) 11:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Really, not carne? But while this could explain the error, it is irrelevant for the scientific name. This may be the source, as it contains the same mistaken forms thylacis and carnae. Iblardi (talk) 15:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah actually, yeh I think it is spelled carne not carnae. Maybe it means meat or "flesh" in another language then. And as spanish is a romance language derived from latin, it could very well be latin. Cazique (talk) 18:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also I followed the link you provided, but why do you say the mistaken forms? I mean I don't speak Latin or know the language, but how do you know these are not latin words? Cazique (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I do know Latin. The Spanish word derives from the 3rd declension word caro, which has an accusative carnem and bears the same meaning, 'flesh' or 'meat'. The form "carnae" is an obvious corruption and has nothing to do with the scientific name Thylacoleo carnifex. The person speaking in the link is a scientist, but that doesn't mean he can't be mistaken with respect to Latin/Greek etymologies. (In this case, it may be just a transcription error for carne, which would be the ablative of caro.) It's just one of those inaccuracies that apparently get to lead a life of their own on the internet. Carnifex is an existing and well-established word. There really isn't much room for doubt. Iblardi (talk) 18:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

text: I can certainly understand your skepsis, given the contradicting internet sources. I am glad that you have convinced yourself after doing some research. Iblardi (talk) 09:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't it be nice if the whole web was a wiki, and then we could go fix those mistakes? Bob the Wikipedian (talk) 14:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, considering the ever-increasing popularity of Wikipedia, this is already a good place to start. Iblardi (talk) 18:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it was quite interesting. Pretty much any source I found that went into the etymology of Thylacoleo (ignoring carnifex) quotes "thylacis for pouch." It was only when I came across pages for the Thylacine that all sources staded "thylakos for pouch." Damn confusing. I thought that the Naracoorte Caves site would be a reliable source regarding Thylacoleo carnifex, knowing the people that work there. I figured, though, that more places used thylakos, and dictionaries didn't turn up "thylacis," I had to agree that "thylakos" was pouch. I also thought this would be the best way of working it out, discussing it in the appropriate forum, rather than being a knob and engaging in a "revert war." ;) T.carnifex (talk) 01:52, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No immediate source for this, but IIRC "Carnifex" was job title for a public executioner in ancient Rome. 194.74.62.195 (talk) 16:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Meaning 

message: update the classification to include sub-class and other more detailed levels of taxonomy
Bobbobdob (talk) 20:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is not protected, semi or otherwise, and why is it necessary to include subclass Theria?--Mr Fink (talk) 20:09, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It actually is semi-protected. --JokerXtreme (talk) 20:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This template is meant to be used with a specific change detailed here, not just "do such-and-such". A reliable source is also needed.  fetchcomms☛ 22:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Bobbobdob, 31 March 2010 

message: In Section Behaviour, pls un-italicise Megalania (one occurrence). Since the assignment of this animal to Varanus, Megalania has continued to be used as the common name. As it is no longer the generic name it should not be italicised. Thanks.
203.206.1.188 (talk) 07:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 25 May 2012 

message: The article says 
:The marsupial lion is the largest meat-eating mammal known to have ever existed in Australia, and one of the largest marsupial carnivores from anywhere in the world (although see Thylacosmilus and Borhyaena). 
Do whales not count? Australian waters have whales that are larger than this mammal.
Montalban (talk) 00:20, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we should amend it to "largest terrestrial carnivorous mammal known to have ever existed in Australia"?--Mr Fink (talk) 00:25, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I totally agree.  The clunkiness of that phrase is why I've been hesitant to put it in.  How about "largest carnivorous marsupial to have ever have existed in Australia"?--Mr Fink (talk) 18:02, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: But in the phrase above Thylacoleo is compared with two sparassodonts, that are probably non-marsupial metatherians. Then it could be :"the largest carnivorous marsupial to have ever have existed in Australia, and one of the largest metatherian carnivores from anywhere in the world (see also Thylacosmilus and Borhyaena)"? --Rextron (talk) 18:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  largest meat-eating mammal  known to have ever existed in Australia 

message: There's a sentence in this which I'm not really sure is helpful or not drenched with someone's personal opinion:
"Although it may have shared at least part of its range with the 6-m-long megalania, the marsupial lion remains Australia's most ferocious apex predator because it possessed the most powerful bite of any animal in its weight class."
While it does tell us that Thylacoleo has the most powerful bite in its weight class, I feel like the sentence should be heavily restructured, mainly due to its claim that Thylacoleo is the most ferocious predator of Australia. To my knowledge, ferocity doesn't have tiers, and is a pretty vague description of an animal's behavior. How do you even quantify ferocity? The sentence also has no citations, so that's an added problem. Does anyone else think that this sentence should be removed or edited?--24.12.175.216 (talk) 14:56, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed: it sounds too purple-prosey to justify remaining.  I replaced it with a sentence about it competing with megalania and Quinkana, instead.--Mr Fink (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

text: In its weight class - does that mean then-existing mammals? All mammals? What about dinosaurs - is this claim valid? There have been many new discoveries up to now (May 2018) and I am skeptical that this is a valid claim - probably needs some fine-tuning.104.169.44.141 (talk) 22:02, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Most ferocious predator

message: There is no reason to keep them separate. Most of the info in the Thylacoleo article is about T. carnifex, and little is known about the two other species, so there is little chance the Thylacoleo article will grow too long if more info is added about them. FunkMonk (talk) 10:29, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough.--Mr Fink (talk) 14:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a general consensus at the palaeontology project that unless there is significant information enough about a prehistoric species, it is merged to the genus article. In other words, the species articles are only split off if the genus article grows too long. There is no reason to have one-line stubs about hundreds of taxonomically unstable names (which only amount to authorship and locality in most cases). No info is lost, only centralised, and these names are put in proper context. In the case of the Thylacoleo articles, most of the info is duplicate anyway. This is of course quite different from modern species, which can be defined on a much more reliable basis (genetics, behaviour, external features). The former discussion is rather old, and consensus changes. FunkMonk (talk) 16:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I used to agree with the above, however, I'm getting a bit sick of constantly revising lumped articles when species content shifts or becomes ambiguous... Having separate articles about each species would result in more stability (aside from maybe a move/name change now and then but not revisions to actual content) and clarity (I can't count how many genus pages say "this genus was x meters long" and don't mention which species this is actually referring to; many ignore the fact that species even exist and are different). If all that can be said about a species amounts to a stub, then either more research is needed or, if source info is simply not available, then those poorly supported species can be re-directed to the genus article. However, in common practice, we don't actually do this with all the one-line nomena dubia genus stubs (i.e. we don't redirect those up to the family article), nor do we tend to re-direct one-line family stubs up to the parent clade. since there's no difference between a genus and a family, I'm not sure why they should be treated differently. Note that this would only affect a handful of articles, since most paleo genera are monotypic. Dinoguy2 (talk) 11:26, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd actually argue the opposite for the same reason. First, remember you'd have to change the text in the genus article in any case when a species was moved around, so that part would not get easier if species had their own articles (I doubt anyone is arguing for removing all species specific info from a genus article anyway). If a species moves to another genus now, it is very easy to change the genus article text instantly, and moving blocks of text about the moved species. If all species have their own articles, we need to move the pages every time there is a revision and change every time the name is mentioned in the article (as it will be referred to by its current binomial throughout the entire article), which is more work and takes longer time (and seems less stable to me), since we often have to wait for admins to do the move (if a destination name already exists as a redirect, it has to be deleted by an admin before anything can be moved to it), as we want to preserve edit histories... FunkMonk (talk) 11:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: this is a bit of a wild idea - dunno if it even makes sense in terms of wikipedia practice? might it be possible/useful to have template that contains the genus page content - and have that as a stand alone the genus page, with the same template transcluded onto the species pages preceded/followed by the species specific stuff? if not I think I'd tend to go with Funkmonk's idea (but as you can see I'm no expert). EdwardLane (talk) 17:13, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it will be hard to write meaningful articles about genera only, since they're merely "containers" of species... To add to the above, it is more common for species to be synonymised than genera, it would appear from various synonym lists, so it is also easier to keep track of species, explain they have been synonymised and remove them from the taxobox within genus articles, instead of having to redirect them to/split them from other species article every time they are synonymised or resurrected... Easier to do when they are just empty redirects to genus articles. By the way, funny ow the inclusionist/deletionist/mergist philosophies of Wikipedia mirror the lumping and splitting of taxonomy... FunkMonk (talk) 21:35, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "I think it will be hard to write meaningful articles about genera only, since they're merely "containers" of species.." Isn't this true of families? Yet we have many short articles on families that contain only two or three genera with one or two species in each. As you note, genera are merely containers, it's even a bit misleading to treat them as anything else. Just off the top of my head, what this proposal would look like is you have a genus article discussing things that apply to a category, like classification, shared features of the species, and what differentiates it from related genera, general overall description that could apply to all species included, and definition if available. The species page would include everything that applies to a species, like paleobiology, detailed description and size, range and habitat, and differences from related species, plus classification within the genus (probably the same cladogram copied from the genus article. And of course, none of this applies to anything monotypic, which would be a re-direct, but ideally re-directed to the genus level article. Dinoguy2 (talk) 11:23, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

text: But there is significant enough information about T. carnifex to have a separate article so there is no reason not to.  Thylacoleo should separately cover the genus, including the other species. Rlendog (talk) 14:38, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  it seems to be on the line between lump/split if we're trying to avoid stubby articles so... would it be an improvement for the thylaco article if it had a small subsection specifically (unintentional pun - sorry) about t.carnifex with a link to , and similar subsections for the other subspecies? If so that might let us see what the lump looks like while leaving the split intact. Starting and expanding that as something a bit like this (instead of the current taxonomy section on that article).
===Family===
Thylacoleonidae (Marsupial lions)
Marsupial "lion" alludes to the superficial resemblance to the placental lion and its ecological niche as a large predator.  Thylacoleo is not related to the modern lion Panthera leo.
====Genus====
Thylacoleo (Thylacopardus) - Australia's marsupial lions, that lived from about 2 million years ago, during the late Pliocene and became extinct about 30,000 years ago, during the late Pleistocene epoch.
=====Thylacoleo carnifex=====
The  holotype fossil was found in Town Cave in South Australia, in Pleistocene-aged strata. Additional possible specimens have been found at the Bow fossil site by students and staff of the University of New South Wales in 1979.
=====Thylacoleo crassidentatus=====
lived during the Pliocene, around 5 million years ago and was about the size of a large dog. Its fossils have been found in southeastern Queensland.
=====Thylacoleo hilli=====
lived during the Pliocene and was half the size of T. crassidentatus.
=====Other=====
Fossils of other representatives of Thylacoleonidae, such as Priscileo and Wakaleo, date back to the late Oligocene, some 24 million years.
would that a sensible starting point? feel free to put that into nowiki if it's messing up the talk page, unfortunately just sticking it in nowiki loses the formatting in the contents which is what I was trying to suggest EdwardLane (talk) 08:14, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with Thylacoleo 

message: Thylacoleonidae (Marsupial lions)
Marsupial "lion" alludes to the superficial resemblance to the placental lion and its ecological niche as a large predator.  Thylacoleo is not related to the modern lion Panthera leo.
====Genus====
Thylacoleo (Thylacopardus) - Australia's marsupial lions, that lived from about 2 million years ago, during the late Pliocene and became extinct about 30,000 years ago, during the late Pleistocene epoch.
=====Thylacoleo carnifex=====
The  holotype fossil was found in Town Cave in South Australia, in Pleistocene-aged strata. Additional possible specimens have been found at the Bow fossil site by students and staff of the University of New South Wales in 1979.
=====Thylacoleo crassidentatus=====
lived during the Pliocene, around 5 million years ago and was about the size of a large dog. Its fossils have been found in southeastern Queensland.
=====Thylacoleo hilli=====
lived during the Pliocene and was half the size of T. crassidentatus.
=====Other=====
Fossils of other representatives of Thylacoleonidae, such as Priscileo and Wakaleo, date back to the late Oligocene, some 24 million years.
would that a sensible starting point? feel free to put that into nowiki if it's messing up the talk page, unfortunately just sticking it in nowiki loses the formatting in the contents which is what I was trying to suggest EdwardLane (talk) 08:14, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Family

message: Thylacoleo (Thylacopardus) - Australia's marsupial lions, that lived from about 2 million years ago, during the late Pliocene and became extinct about 30,000 years ago, during the late Pleistocene epoch.
=====Thylacoleo carnifex=====
The  holotype fossil was found in Town Cave in South Australia, in Pleistocene-aged strata. Additional possible specimens have been found at the Bow fossil site by students and staff of the University of New South Wales in 1979.
=====Thylacoleo crassidentatus=====
lived during the Pliocene, around 5 million years ago and was about the size of a large dog. Its fossils have been found in southeastern Queensland.
=====Thylacoleo hilli=====
lived during the Pliocene and was half the size of T. crassidentatus.
=====Other=====
Fossils of other representatives of Thylacoleonidae, such as Priscileo and Wakaleo, date back to the late Oligocene, some 24 million years.
would that a sensible starting point? feel free to put that into nowiki if it's messing up the talk page, unfortunately just sticking it in nowiki loses the formatting in the contents which is what I was trying to suggest EdwardLane (talk) 08:14, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Genus

message: Fossils of other representatives of Thylacoleonidae, such as Priscileo and Wakaleo, date back to the late Oligocene, some 24 million years.
would that a sensible starting point? feel free to put that into nowiki if it's messing up the talk page, unfortunately just sticking it in nowiki loses the formatting in the contents which is what I was trying to suggest EdwardLane (talk) 08:14, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Other

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is a proposed merger tag on this article suggesting a merge with Thylacoleo, but no discussion seems to have been initiated.  This has been discussed previously (see the first discussion on this page) and was rejected, for the same reason it should be rejected now - this is an article of a species while Thylacoleo is an article about the genus to which this species belongs.  The only time we should generally merge a species and genus article is when the genus is monotypic, and Thylacoleo is not. Oppose merge. Rlendog (talk) 20:55, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Some discussion on this has happened at the tail end of another merge discussion at Thylacoleo; see about 2/3 through Talk:Thylacoleo#Merger_proposal. Inconclusive at that point. - Note that there's a potential clash between project usages here - Paleontology likes to merge fossil species to genera under various circumstances, while Tree of Life prefers to restrict that to the monospecific taxa. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 21:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The guidance at WP:Palaeontology was interpreted as merging to the genus, and was discussed at the project when I disputed the deviation from conventions link to discussion. In this case, I have been expanding articles on the family recently, there is much more to add in each article in currently available research. ~ cygnis insignis 06:04, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge 

message: "Thylocoleo Carnifex" has the ability to climb tree, and its attack includes an extraordinary thumb claw. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 10:36, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ability