Talk:Miao people

message: This is the first step towards untangling these two probelmatically intertwined articles. I discussed the major problems with the form "Miao redirecting to Hmong people" article on the Hmong people discussion page and I will not repeat those thoughts here. Basically, I have tried to focus on the status of Miao people as a recognized nationality in China with significant reference to importance of Hmong people in this group. I have also removed much of the previous description of the terminological problems (which was basically plagarized [see Hmong people Talk page for details.]) I also removed the "Early History" section which was drawn (without reference) From Quincy History of a People. His telling of myths is now largely discredited (see Hmong people Talk page fore details.) Perhaps the section can be revamped, discussing these stories in their proper context (see Culas/Michaud "A contribution to the study of Hmong (Miao) migrations and history" in Hmong/Miao in Asia for a good discussion of these issues.) I have also trimmed out other references that were only relevant to Hmong/Mong people in the US. These should be kept on the Hmong people page (which now needs a serious reworking as well.)
I hope this is a fresh start for this information and I look forward to the contributions and improvements to come. I do hope that we all work hard to maintain balance in our presentation of these sometimes contenious issues and that we use as many citations as possible (to avoid the problems of Quincy et al.)--Nposs 07:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Establishing a Miao people article separate from Hmong people article

message: http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSPEK16706020070215
should this be included into the article? Shamishaish
:I think it would be interested to add. Nposs 19:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  China's last native cave dwellers are ethnic Miao people 

message: 以夷制夷 refers not to non-Han Chinese indigenous peoples, but to Qing dynasty's policy of playing foreign imperialist powers against each other.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.158.81 (talk) 03:29, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistake? 

message: User Ip 98.192.162.185 has been adding random stuff into an already messy article like here . I've reverted some of his edits, but there's just too many mistakes in there that i don't know how to fix it anymore. Anyone care to clean up here? --LLTimes (talk) 03:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced claims added by IP 

message: Hi, to the author with IP 98.192.162.185. If you are reading this please remember that Wikipedia is about facts and should remain relatively unbiased. I removed some parts where their were a lot of guess work involved and I would hope that you would respect the integrity of Wikipedia and find some sources for your claims before you edit this page. As said before you made a lot of random claims and many of it still remains. Bkorigins (talk) 22:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Message to unreferenced claims author 

message: Some European atlases from the late 19th century show (typically) two regions within southern China, shaded differently as if they were independent from China, and marked "Miao". The best example I can find without searching is http://www.maproom.org/00/09/present.php?m=0062, where one of the orange patches is labelled "Miao-tse"; I'm sure I can find other examples. I assume that these are references to the Miao people, but I suspect that they may have more to do with European cartographers' imaginings than with the reality on the ground in China.
Anyway, would a scan of such a map be of any help here? Maproom (talk) 22:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Now added. Maproom (talk) 23:07, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miao enclaves in 19th-century China 

message: 1) Is there no more recent information on the population count? 
2) It's my understanding that, in the 80s and 90s, there was a trend in China whereby people began identifying with minority ethnic groups (presumably people who had abandoned that identification previously, or even generations ago) in order to take advantage of favorable policies. It may be worth making note of this, and seeing if information is available on how this manifested among Miao people specifically.Homunculus (duihua) 07:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two questions on demographics  

message: *
http://books.google.com/books?id=GomyOthrHjUC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=Miao+++colloquial&source=bl&ots=mW6dHR6eRA&sig=HSZnRpytQJaK9sszDoMl2Myk0ss&hl=en&sa=X&ei=o6B7UMuTMuL00gHBuICwDA&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Miao%20%20%20colloquial&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=pFYUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=Miao+++colloquial&source=bl&ots=6Nlm9HTCzh&sig=X-Q6fAIaZNbdcHHnMSm_n4AhU3M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E6F7UMnUHc2I0QHtkoEY&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Miao%20%20%20colloquial&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=2E_5nR0SoXoC&pg=PA284&lpg=PA284&dq=Miao+++colloquial&source=bl&ots=eHJTZmrobt&sig=h0sZ-RjhBY8zHNpI6er05J5TrNk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E6F7UMnUHc2I0QHtkoEY&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Miao%20%20%20colloquial&f=false
05:38, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miao 

message: Please add info from http://www.360doc.com/content/12/1111/16/3218641_247217132.shtm --Kaiyr (talk) 11:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  By county  County-level distribution of the Miao  

message: Many Miao/Hmong clans and lineages were founded by Han Chinese men who married Hmong women
A great number of Hmong lineage clans were foundd by Chinese men who married Hmong women, these distinct Chinese descended clans practice Chinese burial customs instead of Hmong style burials.
The Hmong children of Hmong women who married Chinese men was the origin of numerous China and South East Asia based Hmong lineages and clans, these were called "Chinese Hmong" ("Hmong Sua") in Sichuan, the Hmong were instructed in military tactics by fugitive Chinese rebels.  
Marriages between Hmong women and Han Chinese men is the origin of alot of Hmong lineages and clans.
Hmong women married Han Chinese men to found new Hmong lineages which use Chinese names.
Chinese men who married into Hmong clans have established more Hmong clans than the ritual twelve, Chinese "surname groups" are comparable to the Hmong clans which are patrilineal, and practice exogamy. 
Hmong women married Han Chinese men who pacified Ah rebels who were fighting against the Ming dynasty, and founded the Wang clan among the Hmong in Gongxian county, of Sichuan's Yibin district.
Hmong women who married Chinese men founded a new Xem clan in a Hmong villlage (among Northern Thailand's Hmong), fifty years later in Chiangmai two of their Hmong boy descendants were Catholics. A Hmong woman and a Chinese man married and founded the Lauj clan in Northern Thailand.
A marriage between a Hmong woman and a Chinese man resulted in northern Thailand's Lau2 clan being founded, another Han Chinese with the family name  Deng founded another Hmong clan, Han Chinese men's marriages with Hmong women has led some ethnographers to conclude that Hmong clans in the modern era have possible all or partly have been founded in this matter.
Jiangxi Han Chinese are claimed as the forefathers of the southeast Guizhou Miao, and Miao children were born to the many Miao women married Han Chinese soldiers in Taijiang in Guizhou before the second half of the 19th century..
Imperially comissioned Han Chinese chieftancies "gon native", with the Miao and were the ancestors of a part of the Miao population in Guizhou.
The Hmong Tian clan in Sizhou began in the seventh century as a migrant Han Chinese clan.
Non-han women such as Miao women became wives of Han Chinese male soldiers who fought against the Miao rebellions during the Qing and Ming dynasties since Han women were not available.
The Ming dynasty Hongwu Emperor sent troops to Guizhou whose descendants became the Tunbao. The origin of the Tunbao people traces back to when the Ming dynasty sent 300,000 Han Chinese male soldiers in 1381 to conquer Yunnan and the men married Yao and Miao women. 
The prescence of women presiding over weddings was a feature noted in "Southeast Asian" marriages, such as in 1667 when a Miao woman in Yunnan married a Chinese official. Some Sinicization occurred, in Yunnan a Miao chief's daughter married a scholar in the 1600s who wrote that she could read, write, and listen in Chinese and read Chinese classics.
The Sichuan Hmong village of Wangu was visited by Nicholas Tapp who wrote that the "clan ancestral origin legend" of the had the Wang Hmong clan, had said that several times they were married into be a Han Chinese and possibly one of these was their ancestor Wang Wu, there were two tpes of Hmong, "cooked" who sided with Chinese and "raw" who rebelled against the Chinese, the Chinese wre supported by the Wang Hmong clan. A Hmong woman was married by the non-Hmong Wang Wu according to The Story of the Ha Kings in Wangwu village.
Page 169
Page 93
American immigrant cultures: builders of a nation - Page 391	https://books.google.com/books?id=cYgYAAAAIAAJ&q=hmong+founded+by+in+marrying+chinese+males.+within+the+clans+the+lineage+is+the+basis+of+hmong+social&dq=hmong+founded+by+in+marrying+chinese+males.+within+the+clans+the+lineage+is+the+basis+of+hmong+social&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1kKb5vqfJAhUC2T4KHTwDBlAQ6AEILzAE
	
	
	
	
	
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0028972147	
David Levinson, ‎Melvin Ember - 1997 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions	
Craft Production and Performing Arts. The Hmong were skilled silversmiths and craftsmen in their homeland, and many ... In the larger cities, stores selling Hmong crafts have been established and have had some success, although there also is ... Men married between the ages of eighteen and thirty, women between the ages of fourteen and eighteen. ... but within traditional families, lineages, subclans, and other social relationships that people brought with them as they migrated.	
	
Ethnography in the San Francisco Bay Area - Volume 1 - Page 50	https://books.google.com/books?id=EX9uAAAAMAAJ&q=hmong+founded+by+in+marrying+chinese+males.+within+the+clans+the+lineage+is+the+basis+of+hmong+social&dq=hmong+founded+by+in+marrying+chinese+males.+within+the+clans+the+lineage+is+the+basis+of+hmong+social&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1kKb5vqfJAhUC2T4KHTwDBlAQ6AEINTAF
	
	
	
	
	
https://books.google.com/books?id=EX9uAAAAMAAJ	
1994 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions	https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&q=editions:Ip3ksf6CQ4EC&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1kKb5vqfJAhUC2T4KHTwDBlAQmBYINzAF
Yang writes: "The social organization of the Hmong is the reflection of a mentality which remains, across the ages, ... Dunnigan (1982) delineates three basic organizing principles of Hmong society: descent (lineages, clans); affinity (marriage alliances); ... The following discussion recognizes these principles within a description of Hmong clans, lineages, families, and ... Hmong in the U.S. have started small businesses such as grocery stores, car repair shops and restaurants with clan ...	
	
The Hmong of Thailand: opium people of the Golden Triangle - Page 11	https://books.google.com/books?id=fPNuAAAAMAAJ&q=hmong+founded+by+in+marrying+chinese+males.+within+the+clans+the+lineage+is+the+basis+of+hmong+social&dq=hmong+founded+by+in+marrying+chinese+males.+within+the+clans+the+lineage+is+the+basis+of+hmong+social&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1kKb5vqfJAhUC2T4KHTwDBlAQ6AEIOTAG
	
	
	
	
	
https://books.google.com/books?id=fPNuAAAAMAAJ	
Nicholas Tapp - 1986 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions	
Paradoxically, too, the further the Hmong were forced to retreat into such marginal zones of refuge the more they came to ... This is in large part due to the egalitarian nature of their social organization which is based on the lack of permanent ... The Hmong are divided into a number of patrilineal clans some bearing the same name as those of some of the Chinese surname-groups (Lee, Wang etc.). These clans are exogamous, and provide the basis of kinship and political organization.	
03:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miao/Hmong clans and lineages founded by Han 

message: See this
Commentary: Challenges and Complexity in the Re-Construction of Hmong History
By Kou Yang
California State University, Stanislaus
Hmong Studies Journal, Volume 10, 17 pages
http://hmongstudies.org/YangHSJ10.pdf
04:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miao descent from Chiyou is just a legend with no proof 

message: Miao Rebellion (1735–36) and Miao Rebellion (1795–1806) 
http://books.google.com/books?id=j05GzmC_zrcC&pg=PA169&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=sfesAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA123&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=OQQWBMIhgXIC&pg=PA43&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=9pu_AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=061BAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA111&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=8UKTzo1UiVgC&pg=PA116&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-8jpUpKTOtW0sQTirYH4AQ&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=cpfgQNWXpyoC&pg=PA204&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-8jpUpKTOtW0sQTirYH4AQ&ved=0CCcQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=6qeC_0u3pLIC&pg=PA105&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=VRSXz25X5P8C&pg=PA424&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=KN7Awmzx2PAC&pg=PA103&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMbpUsbLNtOksQTX44HAAQ&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ybAaAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=quota+miao+examinations+leibold&hl=en&sa=X&ei=isnpUsnVCcjJsQSixoLQCg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA
They were also proposed for aboriginals in Taiwan
http://books.google.com/books?id=g3oWoSKVnVIC&pg=PA375&dq=quota+miao+examinations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-8jpUpKTOtW0sQTirYH4AQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=quota%20miao%20examinations&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 02:40, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Affirmative action 

message: Vietnamese: Meo or H'Mông; Thai: แม้ว (Maew) or ม้ง (Mong)
* Removed this because the Hmong is only a subgroup of the miao nationality.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altaina18 (talk • contribs) 12:36, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hmong ethnonym  

message: Please add about Miao Nationalism and separatism--Kaiyr (talk) 07:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationalism and separatism 

message: What exactly is included in this article? It begins with "The Miao is an ethnic group belonging to South China, and is recognized by the government of China as one of the 55 official minority groups." Yet much of its content is about Hmong groups in SE Asia who don't identify with the term "Miao". As there is already a stand alone article on Hmong people, some sections should be moved there. Esiymbro (talk) 08:59, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of this article is unclear 

message: Wasn't 貓 (with dog radical on left) formerly used in Chinese to refer to the Miao people, before the standardization of 苗? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: [[wikt:貓|貓]]

message: In chapter 1 of Empires of Silver, it is said that, sometime during the Qing dynasty, the Miao were self-sufficient.
When the Chinese population expanded enormously due to the prosperity enabled by international trade, the Han entered further inland to acquire timber.
They traded with the Miao and the only commodity they would take in exchange of timber would be silver.
Hence, the Han traders provided the Miao with silver from the Manila Galleon and this is the origin of Miao silver craft.
Is it so?
Can you include it into the article?
Currently the article does not mention any increased contact with the Han or when the silver craft was adopted.
--Error (talk) 18:27, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silver and timber