Talk:Twelve leverage points

message: The examples don't seem to mesh with the leverage points that well. I'm skeptical that they were written by an expert on the subject. This article needs review. 142.36.54.157 (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right.  The original article had much clearer examples.  The example for number 9 makes no sense at all.  The clearest example used by Meadows for that point in the original article was that of an old building with a shower on the 4th floor and the hot water tank in the basement.  When the hot water tap is adjusted, it takes 30 seconds before the water temperature changes in the shower.  This delay makes it difficult to properly tweak the temperature to the desired level.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.202.192 (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Expert verification

message: Since it has been suggested that an expert comment on this, I want to ask what sort of expert? It seems to me this is a report of ideas published by Meadows. Agree or disagree, the appropriate way to check would be to compare the page to the original publication of those ideas. The page is about Meadow's leverage points, not "System scientists uniformly agree that this is the way to change a system."  The page seems to be an accurate representation of Meadow's concepts. (Personally I feel just these points may be key to solving a lot of human society's problems, but that is besides the point.)  
Jarrender (talk) 08:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What sort of expert? 

message: Her book "Thinking in Systems" dedicates a chapter to these 12 points. That book can be used to verify these. I hope to get time to do so.
Lbeaumont (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: These appear in her book "Thinking in Systems"

message: I'm a fan of system dynamics, but Wikipedia is simply not the right place to summarize pieces of research or opinion, no matter how cool they may seem to some editor.  See the WP:V policy.  As the template I just added notes, This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources.  Without those, it is eligible for deletion. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs third-party sources, not primary sources 

message: Meadows is one of the authors of The Limits to Growth with 30 years of credibility world-wide.
Will we also remove that article?
Is this political or applied science that we are to consider here ?  Global warming denials ?
Consider the current project known as the A-21 Campaign or the minor events that led to widespread aboriginal gangs in present-day western Canada.  In the latter case, distributing the worst offenders across the prison system to reduce violence in one prison lead to the rapid spread of gang membership across a vast territory.
What she offers is perhaps better seen as a heuristic suggested by an expert.  Now where has it proven useful?  Compare the "technical" background of past cybernetics advocates.
In that vein, we risk seeing this article deleted but retaining Bright green environmentalism?
G. Robert Shiplett 01:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  the stature of Meadows on system simulation and analysis