Talk:Merkava

message: That thing is a monster.  It takes up half the page.  In the interests of cutting down on the size of it, can we come to a consensus on only stating the statistics for the Mark IV in the infobox (and state the other stats in their respective subsections?)  No reason for the IB to be that huge. // 3R1C 19:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done and done.  I removed the information for previous version from the infobox and incorporated it into the article. // 3R1C 16:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: The statement: "...due in part to... bias within the U.K. Foreign Office" reflects an opinion from one side of the argument.  Perhaps this article should be qualified with a 'the neutrality of this article is disputed' banner.
: Absolutely, feel free to chop/cite/edit that as needed.  Also, remember to sign your posts with ~~~~ // 3R1C 23:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: Our friend returned and reinserted his OR unsourced changes on a massive scale with this edit: 17:37, 18 January 2007 69.165.183.10 . I would simply revert, again, except that 68.80.207.22 has made some decent edits since then. They are minor edits that could be redone. --Shuki 17:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is getting obnoxious. Do we have any kind of recourse? // 3R1C 15:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  69.165.183.10, 69.167.115.77  

message: The M1 article states something about the destruction of tanks. But here it is not even mentioned that one Merkava 3 tank was destroyed in Gaza 16 Feb. 2002 by a bomb.   Performance in battle should be part of the article as well.--Stone 10:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds like an isolated incident, not a serious performance issue.  If you can find multiple instances of this occuring, then it might be notable enough. // 3R1C 14:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a isolated instances. To state the only Merkava 3 tank ever lost would show the outstanding performance. But this the only real fight it had ever and it shows also that the armament is not 100% safe against everything, which is not possible at all. The other point is that the articles showed a serious psycological effect of this destruction.--Stone 14:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would cede the 100% safety issue if in fact there was a safety issue.  The tank was blown up using an IED planted in the roadway.  No armored vehicle that I know of can withstand that.  It's implied that any tank is vulnerable to an IED of sufficient size.  If the tank had fallen to small-arms fire or RPGs, this might be notable, but the fact that every MBT in the contemproary world is vulnerable to this weapon makes that tidbit unnotable. // 3R1C 17:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Destruction 

message: This tank does have a combat history by now, I heard about it being in combat in Lebanon 2006. But I don't know anything of substance about it. Some experts might want to contribute. Or expand/update service history section in general. Dysmorodrepanis 20:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Citations would be nice. // 3R1C 14:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: This was sourced from a blog and I could not find any supporting citations - I removed much of this - it is essentially impossible to find reputable data sources in the middle of any conflict - I am certain tanks have been lost - but just sticking claims in an encyclopedic article - in the middle of the event - is a poor practice and conflicts with numerous common sense writing practices. BeingObjective (talk) 16:34, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Combat history'' section?

message: Archived all debates more than a month without discussion. // 3R1C 14:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure if archiving over a month is okay on any article. --Shuki 16:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Considering how little is added to this talk, I took some initiative and did what I thought was applicable. // 3R1C 14:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. If there is little traffic, then info should be left on the page for others to come and read, not archived as 'outdated discussion'. --Shuki 17:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I really don't see how that's a justification for not archiving it, especially since the topics I archived were issues that have since been resolved. // 3R1C 18:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The point is that a discussion page is not only for current issues, but also so that 'newer' visitors can see what issues have already been discussed. This reduces the change of repeat discussions. Talk pages should only be archived if they are extremely long. --Shuki 16:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archiving

message: I forgot to update the edit summary, but I removed the "references" that were added because they appeared to be items relevant to the subject matter, but were not explicitly referencing instances of information. // 3R1C 14:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: I removed the Mark IIx subsections and made them bulleted lists.  There was no reason, in my eyes, to subsec one line of information. // 3R1C 15:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mark II subsec

message: I like the new image, thanks to the uploader.  Can you provide us more information about the image? Where was it taken and what variation it is? Additionally, I removed the Hebrew captioning from it, this being the English Wiki.  Other than that, it's a good upload. // 3R1C 17:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it be possible to get one without fingers on the lens?  JonCatalan 02:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you'd like to go to Israel, cross the border, and take pictures of them, by all means, take another one.  I spent a lot of time combing sites for GDFL/CC-licensed images, I foudn none that were suitable.  This was the closest anyone could find, and is a lot better than the ones I found. // 3R1C 03:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Image

message: Though this tank was considered to be one of the safest in the world 50 Merkavas were damaged during the 34 day war in Lebanon, 44 percents of the tanks hit by missiles had their armor penetrated, 30 soldiers and officers from the corps were killed and more than 100 were injured, including two battalion commanders. Additionally 3 Merkavas were destroyed by Palestinians during the Al-Aqsa Intifada whereby 10 Israeli soldiers died.
Which this tank? Merkava Mk. 1/2/3/4? Was considered by who?
What is the source of that? Flayer 09:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3297431,00.html All Merkavas were considered to be among the safest tanks in the world by the Israeli defense departement who was surprised to see so many Merkavas being destroyed in the battle fields. --Mustafa Mustamann 19:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pointless  

message: The list of features for each Merkava model seems to me to be very inaccurate with often features listed in generations later then the one where it was actually implemented. Examples include "individual fire-proof canisters" listed as a Mark IV feature while is was done for the Mark III, "Upgraded ammunition storage containers to minimize ammunition cook-off" (listed as Mark III) and "dry turret" designation (listed as Mark IV) are both applicable to all Merkava models and "laser designators" (listed for Mark III) which I assume means "laser range finders" (the first is a laser device used to highlight targets for a 3rd party while the second is a laser device that aids in calculating firing solution for the tank's primary weapon systems) which were first used in the Ornit MPS fire control computer system for the Merkava Mark IIB and later was included in an upgrade to earlier Mark II and some Mark I units.
I would like to have the feature list fixed to read as follows (features that have temporal correctness are not listed)
*Mark I
  * Upgraded ammunition storage containers to minimize ammunition cook-off,
  *Turret is classified as "dry", meaning that no active rounds are stored above the turret line.
*Mark II
  *Gyroscopic turret position tracking for maintaining turret heading regardless of chassis heading
  *External two-way telephone for secure communications between the tank crew and dismounted infantry,
  *Addition of laser range finder for the fire control computer system.
  *NBC protection systems,
*Mark III (not "dor-dalet")
  * Upgraded and strengthened tracks (built by Caterpillar, designed in Israel),
  *Ammunition stored in individual fire-proof canisters which reduce the chance of tank rounds cooking-off in the case of a fire inside the tank. 
*Mark III Baz
  *fire-control system enables the Merkava to operate as an anti-helicopter platform and is capable of detecting and destroying armoured attack helicopters 
Another issue is the listing of one of the important feature of the Mark IV is the expansion of available munition types for the main gun, and then goes on to list only HEAT and APFSDS which were (of course) already available for the Mark III as they are the mainstay of any MBT system. One of the main criticism for the move to a 120mm main gun (at the time) was the limited range of munition types as compared to the range available for the standard "Sharir" 105mm main gun, and this section in the article appears to reference to that but provide no actual information.
To sum - I'd appreciate the comments of the editors on the above issues as I'd rather not make such an extensive edit out of the blue.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guss77 (talk • contribs) 01:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccuracies in historical list of features 

message: There is a claim that a challenger 2 was defeated in a front hull hit with an RPG-29 in this article.  Mind providing some proof?  As ive not seen anything about it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.236.76 (talk) 23:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that a Challenger 2's lower frontal hull armour was penetrated by an RPG-29 (it bounced off the road and the tank's driver lost three toes) but it is certainly not true that this is either traditionally the strongest point on a tank or the strongest point on a Challenger 2 - indeed quite the reverse, the RPG had to bounce to reach it and it is a particularly weak spot on the armour of the tank. I am going to remove the reference to the Challenger 2 as it is only tangentially relevant and entirely misleading.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.105.196 (talk) 23:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Challenger 2 penetration 

message: Hezbollah fired a rang of antitank missiles and rockets. Namely, the Russian-made AT-3 Sagger, AT-4 Spigot, AT-5 Spandrel, AT-13 Saxhorn-2 'Metis-M', АТ-14 Spriggan 'Kornet'; Iranian-made Ra'ad (version of AT-3 Sagger), Towsan (version of AT-5 Spandrel), Toophan (version of BGM-71 TOW), Saeghe-2 (version of M47 Dragon); and European-made MILAN missiles. Overall, "more than a 1000" launches.
*Israel had in Lebanon some 370-400 tanks (Merkava 2, 3, and 4).
*52 tanks were damaged.
*45 were hit by 51 antitank missiles and rockets, 7 by improvised landmines.
*In 22 tanks among 45, its armor was penetrated by 24 missiles. In 3 among 22 it caused an explosion of the ammunition (total loss).
*5 tanks among 52 were totally destroyed:
*# Merkava 2 over landmine - 4 killed (July 12)
*# Merkava 4 over landmine - 1 killed (July 24) - this tank was equipped with special underside armour 
*# Merkava 2 by ATGM - 4 killed (August 9)
*# Merkava 3 by ATGM - 4 killed (August 12)
*# Merkava 4 by ATGM - 4 killed (August 12)
*30 crewmen killed:
** 10 in 3 Merkava 2 tanks (4+2+4)
** 9 in 4 Merkava 3 tanks (3+1+4+1)
** 11 in 6 Merkava 4 tanks (1+1+1+3+1+4)
Source:
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/history/2nd-lebanon-war/acv-losses/index.html
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/2nd-lebanon-hezbollah-atw/index.html
Flayer (talk) 00:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some facts regarding my last edit 

message: Flayer asked for a reference to the statistics I brought, about the amount of crewmen hit per hit tank. the numbers came from the official israeli armor corps magazine, I don't remember what issue, during last year. Is anyone in possesion of back issues and can point to a specific reference?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.103.96 (talk) 12:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked for reference to the number of built Merkava mark 4 (220 or 400+ ??), not about the amount of crewmen hit per hit tank. Flayer (talk) 13:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  references 

message: Imagine this: http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=13038905&PageNum=0 If Georgia had this IMO best tank in the world... Any thoughts on adding this info?--TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Georgia never had Merkava. The negotiations about Mk2 were canceled. Merkava never exported. Flayer (talk) 10:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Georgia 

message: I see the specs on the right side, but is that length correct? It reads 24.93 feet without the gun but 29.66 feet without it? That means the gun adds a whole 4.73 feet (1.44 meters) worth of length to the tank, and I don't think that's right.Colonel Marksman (talk) 03:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is correct. Take a look: . Flayer (talk) 06:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Specs - Length

message: Para 3 currently:
Additionally, the space between the inner and outer hulls is filled with diesel—an economical storage method and a means of defeating HEAT rounds.
Sounds ingenious, but doesn't seem likely. I've also read elsewhere that machine-gun ammunition is stored in this space. Does anyone have any references to this feature and its supposed protective properties (that don't lead back round to this article)? Centrepull (talk) 14:48, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That is correct - fuel is stored at the bottom of the front hull (under the engine), at the right and left side of the hull (slightly aft of the turret's center) and with the newer models also at the back (where most tanks have the exhaust). The purpose is mostly for compactness of storage (the tanks are formed to be relatively long and flat and adhere to the lines of the hull), protection of the fuel from armor piercing rounds to prevent explosion and cooling of the crew compartment (the fuel is constantly pumped around from tank to tank providing heat transfer). I do not believe it is meant to defeat HEAT rounds - a HEAT round in the fuel tank is going to cause the fuel to ignite: diesel fuel is not very flammable, but it will ignite when exposed to a super hot HEAT liner. Obviously I can't show pictures and figures to support this (Merkava internals are still classified, obviously) but you can trust me on the sunscreen. Machine-gun ammo is stored mostly in the turret for direct feeding into the coaxial, on top of the turret for easy access to feed the commander's and loader's MAGs, and some spares under the turret. No ammo except main gun rounds is ever stored in the hull.--Guss77 (talk) 00:07, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  On the contrary to what Guss77 says, diesel-tanks do add protection from penetration into the hull, and while the fuel can ignite it isn't much of a problem since such fires are external. Both the pansarbandvagn 302 and the stridsvagn 103 used that system, the latter have an external link to the tests proofing the concept. BP OMowe (talk) 01:22, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cavity wall fuel storage 

message: Photo shows a Magach/Patton. In fact this source specifically says it was a Patton.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Feb 2003 attack

message: *About the sale of warships http://famagusta-gazette.com/cyprus-to-buy-israeli-warships-reports-local-daily-p19996-69.htm
*And the sale of F-16s http://www.jpost.com/defense/israeli-defense-exports-hit-record-high-320850
Post it note to self. Wait 72 hours and scan the media! Andy, Cheers! Irondome (talk) 21:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  An apology for talking crap above 

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replies: text: This is all set. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:50, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: :Sounds like lazy second-rate journalism. The MK3 are to be retained in any case. The report is probably referring to the earliest types, and could even be conflating extra IMI upgraded M60s. The figures are irreconcilable. I do not ed war, I got a life, but I would suggest a change in wording to reflect this irreconcilable diffence in sources. The 780 source is the stronger. Irondome (talk) 21:24, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice response mate. I dunno... it just doesnt sound right in terms of the balance of forces projected then and now. Most if not all of the Merk 3 esp the BAZ were upgraded almost up to MK4 standard. This would be the core world-class MBT striking strength of the IDF, about 780 3's and the 600+ Mk4 building. About 5 divisions. I think it was the the deal to send all those seriously souped up M60s with all the goodies, inc state of the art sensors and fire control computers, merk type modular armour and the 120mm gun. There were over a thousand of those. It could have been mixed with some MK2s as a total package. That M60 upgrade can still slug it out with any MBT in service anywhere. It could carry trophy too. I cant see the IDF unloading the MK3s to anyone. Lets try and find an Israeli source to at least start somewhere. There are no Israeli media sources talking about a MK3 sale on that scale in Israeli media that Ive seen yet. Its a mystery. Cheers Irondome (talk) 01:37, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  1,000 Mk 3 when only 780 were made? 

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thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: in "2006 Lebanon War" it states that "Hezbollah weaponry was believed to include ... AT-14 'Kornet'[31] HEAT missiles"; but in "Gaza Border areas" section it states that "It had hitherto not been suspected that Hamas possessed such an advanced missile" (referring to the same, AT-14 Kornet. Can this be correct? - Redshield3 (talk) 19:49, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not? Hezbullah in Lebanon got some Kornets directly from Assad, but for Hamas in Gaza it is not that easy. Flayer (talk) 10:08, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  inconsistency in the combat history section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: In an interview with George Lucas In Starlog Magazine he said the shape of the Star Destroyer was inspired by this tank, particularly the extreme sloped armor.
98.164.64.98 (talk) 07:04, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Star Wars Star Destroyer

message: : "Secondary armament [...] 2 × 7.62 mm (0.300 in) MG"
: "Each model of the Merkava has two roof mounted 7.62 mm machine guns for use by the commander and loader and another mounted co-2axially with the main gun."
91.10.25.103 (talk) 12:49, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Worth at least some thought -  BeingObjective (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  How good is this tank??? 

message: This article seems especially prone to the use of unreliable or poor sources - see: Wikipedia:WikiProject Reliability.
Numerous edits are also agenda edits - Wikipedia:Advocacy -- I suspect real time data on any current conflict - on any subject has this problem.
This is an article about the Merkava Tanks - not an update on a particular conflict.
I think if you have current data with a solid reliable source - bring it into talk prior to sneaking it into this article - there are numerous examples.
Adding these from an unregistered dynamic MAC/IP - also does not help - I think registering for an account then making a change - helps in the area of credibility. BeingObjective (talk) 13:41, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using poor quality citations - the article is about the Merkava Tank and nothing more. 

message: Video footage from Hamas shows Al-Qassam fighters hiding in buildings and firing at tanks and quickly going out into the street, destroying a tank, and retreating. It seems like Hamas has found many ways to destroy or damage these vehicles, and on a budget. Mauzer's random BS (talk) 20:56, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Destruction of merkava tanks in Gaza and the tactics and equipment Hamas is using to destroy them. 

message: This text has a link to the wiki article ration heater, which is about the chemical packs used to heat MREs, not about any device that is equipment within the tank. It is likely we has a terminology problem here: 'ration heater' is being used as a synonym for an electric heater or for the boilers found in British and Indian tanks. Can anyone verify this?
I'd like to remove the wlink but it is likely it will just be restored if the text is not modified. I think we should modify the text from 'ration heater' to 'electric ration heater' or to 'ration heater / boiler' once we have verification. 
Thanks Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 12:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ration heater