Talk:Nashi (youth movement)

message: I don’t feel like jumping into the middle of an edit war, but the opening statement that Nashi is a “democratic anti-fascist youth movement” is clearly POV in the context of the controversial nature of its, er, nature. It is somewhat amusing that this form was introduced in an edit claiming to clean up POV.
The opening statement should be written without descriptive terms, and followed by a presentation of both perspectives, making it clear who says what. That is the NPOV way. -83.252.213.196 (talk) 13:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: This paragraph misquotes what I wrote. 
You can find the original article here
http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/2007/07/nashi-sex-camp-shock-horror-latest.html
Edwardlucas (talk) 00:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daily Mail 

message: I noticed someone reverted a series of edits last month which included this article, which says some pretty relevant things:
"The youth political movement Nashi (Ours) will be radically reorganized and will no longer function as a centralized federal project. There are no plans to liquidate the pro-Kremlin movement's brand, but Kremlin sources said Nashi will no longer be employed as a political rent-a-crowd.
The movement will have only five regional offices left out of 50. "There is no longer an Orange Revolution threat, so we can give more attention to other things now."''
"[President Vladimir] Putin was dissatisfied with how Nashi was faring, they were causing tensions with the West. [Dmitry] Medvedev positions himself as a friend of the West, and aggressive national patriotic support does not fit in with that image," political analyst Stanislav Belkovsky explained."
Krawndawg (talk) 07:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Kremlin discards youth movement it fostered

message: The annual camp section should - in the way it is, be removed, as the statements made there are too grave to let them stand there based just on source, Edward Lucas from the Daily Mail tabloid. As he is also author of The New Cold War And How To Win It he surely would want to talk up his point to increase sales. I personally would call Lucas a biased source that. left standing alone, is of no value. At least one other quality source, not a tabloid or an op-ed, should be found in support of the statements. Oalexander-En (talk) 00:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Annual Camp" section 

message: Today's Nashi picket in Sankt Peterburg consisted of a single person.()  Reportedly, Nashi didn't manage to get a picket permit on time (!)  Previously, Nashi hasn't had any trouble getting picket permits within a hour's notice if politically convenient.
Also, the militia has reportedly arrested a pair of girls for picketing together.  Obviously, Nashi is falling out of favour with Russia's authorities. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 15:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Decline and fall 

message: While Putinjugend most commonly refers to Nashi, it may also refer to Molodaya Gvardiya and Walking Together.  How should we explain these additional meanings in the article's lead? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just explained that outside the lead. You are welcome. (Igny (talk) 15:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putinjugend is not just Nashi 

message: Please explain your reason for mass removal of links from this article. Please do not simply refer to WP:LINKFARM. Explain why each link you removed was bad.Biophys (talk) 14:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How you about you explaining for every link individually, why it has to be included in the article and what it's role is? Offliner (talk) 00:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is quite simple. None of the links provide any information which isn't in the article already or which can't be fit into the article. --Russavia Dialogue 00:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: One link is a photo essay, the other a video report, these obviously can't be incorporated into the article, so a link is justified. Martintg (talk) 11:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The video report present's nothing that isn't in the article already. Photos report, perhaps, but we have Commons photos, and I have also written to Nashi asking for permission to use some of their photos. --Russavia Dialogue 12:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't overrely on Nashi publicity photos.  WP:SELFPUB applies. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 13:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No it doesn't. Not for photos it doesn't. I don't know where you get that notion from. --Russavia Dialogue 13:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: From common sense rather than wikilawyering. Colchicum (talk) 13:49, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Common sense tells me it doesn't matter where photos come from because they aren't being used for sources. That is what WP:SELFPUB is about, and it isn't wikilawyering to say that it doesn't matter where photos come from, it's common sense. --Russavia Dialogue 14:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Photos from independent reliable sources like Time Magazine are better that WP:SELFPUB sources, since self published images could be self-serving, and this is contrary to Wikipedia policy. The photo essay and video linked in the EL section provides WP:NPOV context, while using WP:SELFPUB images could be WP:POV not to mention WP:OR and WP:SYN. Martintg (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of links

message: This is a totalitarian organization known as Putinjugend. They attacked British embassy, assault people, and use dead animals to prove their point. These are facts. Let's not classify them as an "anti-fascist organization" even if they claim themselves such.Biophys (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your question has merit. Similarly, the Antifaschistische Aktion is a self-declared anti-fascist group, acts of which often make one recall SA (Röhm's stormtroopers), however. Thus, we have to ask ourselves, whether an organization's self-declared goal is enough. I think that more often than not, it does not suffice. --Miacek (t) 13:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we should use independent third-party sources.Biophys (talk) 23:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-fascists?

message: Offliner has inexplicably reverted my attempts edit the lede to bring it into conformity of  Wikipedia:LEDE, which states "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article". The article contains a section about criticisms, so the lede should mention it. Undoing revert. --Martintg (talk) 11:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You inserted: Critics claim Nashi functions is as a personality cult for Putin whose job was intimidate, bully and harass his opponents. The source you gave does not say this (it is written by one person, not "critics".) Therefore, I have removed it as WP:OR. Offliner (talk) 11:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is that this article has a section on criticisms from a number of critics, so we should summarize it in the lede. Perhaps you can come up with a better summary? --Martintg (talk) 11:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But you can't just take a sentence from the opinion piece of one critic, and then claim that this is what all critics say. Offliner (talk) 12:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It seemed to be the best distillation of the two main criticisms, the cultist aspect of the movement and the tendency of the movement to go after those who are perceived to be opponents of the Kremlin. But as I said, if you can suggest a better summary, well and good. --Martintg (talk) 12:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, this "best distillation of two sources" is exactly what is outlined as inadmissible per WP:SYNTH:Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to reach conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material that advances a new position, and that constitutes original research. PasswordUsername (talk) 17:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately you are misapplying WP:SYNTH, the view is that summarizing for an intro is permitted, see Wikipedia:Content_noticeboard#Is_summarizing_per_MOS:INTRO_WP:SYNTH.3F. --Martintg (talk) 23:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you put the question quite vaguely. Those who read the content gave you the more nuanced view that summarizing and WP:SYNTH do not contradict one another. That is what we'd been telling you all of this time. PasswordUsername (talk) 22:10, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the text as suggested by Abecedare at Wikipedia:Content_noticeboard#Is_summarizing_per_MOS:INTRO_WP:SYNTH.3F to the lede. --Martintg (talk) 00:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: The problem isn't with the sources, it's with the content. As I already pointed out, comparing things to Hitler is sensationalism used to generate media hype. People have compared Bush to Hitler, and Obama to Lenin, but we certainly don't see those comparisons in the lead of their articles. We don't see Alex Jones quotes about Obama's police state in his article, do we? It's not appropriate for the lead in an encyclopedia and it's contrary to the notion of a neutral article. That someone compared something to something else is not an excuse to present their claims as fact or to put undue weight on them. LokiiT (talk) 17:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that these claims are not lead material. They are undue because of the reasons above. There is more important stuff in the article that could go into the lead instead. Offliner (talk) 17:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite PU's claim this isn't "consensus". The comparisons to Hitler Youth and Komsomol are cited to academic reliable sources, not to "sensationalist" journalists as LokiiT claim. This is straight up removal of reliable references. There's no consensus to remove this from the lede and plenty of reasons to keep it - it's notable and reference. This appears to be a case of IDON'TLIKEIT being misrepresented as ... not sure what exactly.radek (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Also, most of this discussion took place before additional, reliable sources were added, hence it is irrelevant at this point. Please discuss current sources in the article, not some imagined or old ones.radek (talk) 01:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article lede 

message: There's a "neutrality disputed" tag after the Anders Asland source  but no explanation given on talk. Is this another spurious tag? Needs to be removed if so.radek (talk) 01:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The tag was put there per a dispute about what the lead should say. Read the discussion above. LokiiT (talk) 03:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not an issue of neutrality though, and it was placed there before new sources were added.radek (talk) 12:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is the fact that it's there in the lead at all. It has nothing to do with sources. LokiiT (talk) 22:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's not a question of neutrality. (If it is a question at all).radek (talk) 22:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

text: I could find you about a zillion sources that compare Obama to Lenin. What do you think would happen if I tried to put that into his article's lead? This is stupid, I've already argued this. The comparison being in the lead presents a biased, western-media/anti-Putin positioned view of Nashi with no opinions to present the other side. LokiiT (talk) 22:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoa. If you can actually find a zillion reliable sources that legitimately compare Obama to Lenin you should probably go to both of those articles and let them people know. But somehow I don't think you can. Look. These are reliable sources. If you think they're not - please go to the RS Noticeboard and raise the issue there. You can't reject sources or article text based solely on IDON'TLIKEIT which is basically what you're trying to do here.radek (talk) 22:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Woah. Ad nausium, you're still talking about sources after I already said numerous times that the tag has nothing to do with sources. Fyi, I'm not rejecting that material from the article outright, therefore your citing WP:IDONTLIKE is unfounded; see the criticism section. The tag stays per WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Now I'm done arguing, as you seem unable or unwilling to understand what I'm saying.LokiiT (talk) 23:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To reiterate and for starters, UNDUE is different then neutrality. There's no NPOV violation here. The text simply reports what the sources say. You could argue UNDUE but that's a different tag.radek (talk) 23:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The very first sentences of UNDUE says: Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. That's why there is no tag for UNDUE. Because undue weight is synonymous with POV. LokiiT (talk) 02:04, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  tag 

message: Hi, I recently cleaned up some links from this article's external links section that didn't meet our guidelines but nevertheless constitute reliable sources, so I'll place them here if anyone is interested in using them to cite the article.
*Putin's Children- Int. Herald Trib.
*Analysis of Nashi by a Russian Jewish group
*Report on Nashi by the BBC program Newsnight
: ThemFromSpace 18:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: A couple of years ago I studied Biology as part of my school diploma program. It wasn't my favourite subject, but I did manage to learn a few extremely advanced facts:
Some reports mention the use of the camp to improve Russia's demographics,[34] where twenty tents were set up in order to allow twenty newlyweds to sleep together.[35]
Twenty tents for twenty=newlyweds? I'm not quite sure how to put this. Dosen't it, as it were, take 'two to tango'? Isn't there a slight, erm, numerical issue here. Surely it would be ten tents for twenty-newly weds, if you... erm... are catching my drift. I think that casts some doubt on the reliability of the source, or the author's mathematical ability... that is unless the author is a totally pure cherub and is perhaps unaware of some of the more risque facts of human existence. Perhaps they think that an influx of sotrks will improve Russia's demographics.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.165.62 (talk) 23:34, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So why don't you change it to say newlywed couples? LokiiT (talk) 23:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

text: No. The article says they are "20 young couples" who "tie the knot in a Big Brother-style ceremony". Whatever that means. LokiiT (talk) 23:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Mathematical Error

message: No mention of her whatsoever? 81.68.255.36 (talk) 14:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: with the year 2010    is not included in the Federal the Council movement. -- CPI-RUS (talk) 03:07, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[masha drokova]] 

message: There's loads here about how there emails were hacked and internal messages uncovered detailing zakazukha, internet trolling, and other dodgy activity. Worth including.Malick78 (talk) 22:38, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Internet activities and hacked accounts

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
::#In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

message: offline? -- Cherubino (talk) 04:08, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Website 

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I have just added archive links to  on Nashi (youth movement). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20051029064424/http://www.nashi.su:80/ to http://www.nashi.su/
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120516050152/http://www.vse-doma.su:80/ to http://www.vse-doma.su/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130129075546/http://www.41-45.su:80/ to http://www.41-45.su/
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120516050152/http://www.vse-doma.su:80/ to http://www.vse-doma.su/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929122956/http://izvestiya.ru/politic/article2595598/ to http://izvestiya.ru/politic/article2595598/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: This article's sources date back to 2012 and earlier. Does this organization still exist? If further news has been published, the article would benefit from its incorporation.--Quisqualis (talk) 23:28, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  June, 2019: Article in need of update