Talk:Bakkah

message: Ok I'm reading this "Arguments against the identification of Baca with Bakkah
The Hebrew Baca can be translated either as "weeping" or "balsam trees" (which grow in dry places). " 
and I know my arabic is weak but from my understanding Bakkah in Arabic also comes from the word "weeping"... any comments?  --GNU<B>4</B>Eva 2 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
Bakkah in semitic languages means "House" like Baalbek "House of Baal"--Zakkour (talk) 13:22, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baca - Hebrew, crying... Bekkah... Arabic for? 

message: Kuran come from a generation to another with memorizing of the muslims.
There is now atleast 50milion muslim all have the same Kuran completly in their memory. Its the only book which is so good memorized, so if all the copies of Kuranbooks been burned there will be no lost for the muslims to read it. Memorizing Kuran must be completly, and who have all the Kuran is called "Hafiz". The memorizing must be even with the lengh of the stops to take a breath-break while reading. So a wrong reading of a text from a a written book is imposible. Books are for an easier way to fallow reading Kuran to refresh what a muslim memorize. So the argue with "bi-bakkatah" as "tayyakahu"(whats tayyakahu?) or any other misreading is a real nonesense and nothing else than a wrong info. Christoph Luxenberg's reading is really a joke, and he is trying to mislead the reader with non-true infos and non-existing things.
Bakka is not a new name of Makka islam brought. It is mentioned in arabian pre-islamic peotries as Bakka.
A comment by User:85.181.37.230, moved from the article text by Zocky 02:36, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  MISSLEADING INFOS BELOW 

message: Is there any hope at all of more sources for this?
Are "Baca" and "Bakkah" even similar in Hebrew/Arabic? They sound alike in English but are they anything like similar in Semitic languages?Grace Note 05:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is noteworthy that :ar:مكة, the Arabic article on Mecca, includes Bakkah as one of the many alternative names for the city. --tyomitch 11:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Psalm 84:6 mentions the "Valley of Baca". I'd like to request the Jewish scholarly position on Jewish scripture for once for the artice. And equally important, what is the connection between the Psalm's "Valley of Beca" and "Beqaa Valley" north of Jerusalem? Usedbook 03:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bekaa Valley 

message: The subsections below were in the article but I removed them because they are primary sourced OR. Some of it might be saved if secondary sources can be found. But its not clearly written anyway and should probably be redone from scratch. Tiamuttalk 18:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putting this here for now 

message: 1. The passage itself pins the location of the pilgrimage to which Psalms 84 refers.
Psalms 84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] in Zion appeareth before God.
Zion, the name of the easternmost hill of ancient Jerusalem, is mentioned 153 times in the King James Version of the Bible.Zion occurs 153 times in 153 verses in the KJV Jewish scriptures apply the term "Mount Zion" to the Temple Mount or the City of David, both located on this elevation. For Jews the term "Zion" became a synecdoche referring to the entire city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel. Thus this passage describes a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in the Holy Land rather than one to Mecca
2. There is no historical or archaeological record of the Jews to whom this passage refers, going on pilgrimage to any temple, other than the one they themselves built in Jerusalem.
3. Zion - that is Jerusalem - lies  across the Arabian Desert from Mecca.
4. According to the study from Dr. Rafat Amari shows that there is no historical record penned before the 4th century, that suggests that Mecca ever existed before that time, while other ancient Arabian towns are well attested in the historical record.Studies by Classical Writers Show That Mecca Could Not Have Been Built Before the 4th Century A.D.
5. In a study conducted by Dr. Rafat Amari, there is no archaeological record that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century, while other ancient Arabian towns are well attested, in the archaeological record.The History and Archaeology of Arabia Show that Mecca Did Not Exist Before the Advent of Christianity.
6. In another study, Dr. Rafat Amari found that no pre-4th century historical or archaeological record that suggests that the Kaaba existed before the early 5th century.The True Story of the Construction of the Temple of Mecca
7. Pilgrimages to Zion - to Jerusalem - to the Holy Land - were conducted during the First Temple Period.
8. Baca is a Hebrew name that dates to before 1000 BC of a valley in Palestine, and is also a Hebrew term for balsam or mulberry trees that "weep" or bleed sap when they are cut. Bakkah is a more modern language 7th century AD Quraysh Arabic dialect name that some suggest refers to Mecca.Baca, The Valley of: from the Jewish EncyclopediaBaca at Net Bible
9. Genesis 16 verse 7 also pins its own location in "Shur", which is located in the northern Sinai Peninsula, on the north-eastern border of Egypt.
In response to people claiming that the Kaaba in Arabia was supposedly "not known" till the "Christian era" this is demonstrably false. Article [1], just one of many examples quoting the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus who wikipedia tells us was a historian that flourished during the period of 60 BCE-30 BCE "Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
'And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.'"[2] [2] Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.
For Christians there is a much bigger issue on the fact that there is no evidence of a city in Palestine called Nazareth until after the time of Jesus PBUH. 
Also there is no evidence of any of the cities mentioned in the "Old Testament" such as Ai in Joshua, etc.  Also "Rafat Amari" is not a legitimate scholar and doesn't even have a wikipedia page!Historylover4 (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguments against the identification of Baca with Mecca 

message: Removed the following passage, that was credited to an individual Mormon author, that also has the most germane verse in the passage censored out of it while including verses that are unnecessary:
How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked[5]
Replaced it with verses from the actual passage in the most widely read and respected King James version - including the censored verse - that pins the destination of the pilgrimage referenced in Psalms 84 as being IN ZION (Jerusalem) - as do all bible versions.
w/ref http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=84&v=7&t=KJV#7
Psalms 84:6 [Who] passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] in Zion appeareth before God.
Reverence #17 also stops short of including the very next - and only germane - verse, regarding the destination of the pilgrimage this Psalms passage refers to.
I also added the following after
“This otherwise unidentified valley has been connected to Bakkah by Islamic writers.[5]”
However the Hebrew author of the Old Testament Psalm pinned the location of the pilgrimage as being in Zion which is the easternmost hill in, and synonymous with, Jerusalem, and is referenced 153 times in the King James version of the Holy Bible.
w/ref http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=zion&t=KJV
Also balanced the Islamic “external link” with a Christian “external link”PeterWaldo (talk) 12:12, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Tiamut later again removed the scriptures, and replaced it again with the article by the Mormon, that also had the most germane portion edited out, presumably by the Wikipedia propagandist that included the censored partial quote originally.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterWaldo (talk • contribs) 18:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

text: My recommendation is to remove all references to Psalms 84 from this article altogether, as it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Mecca, or it's kaaba, or the term Bakkah as understood by the followers of Islamic "tradition". It is a 1200 kilometer distance made, geographical absurdity. However if reference to Psalms 84 is to be made then a sound reference to PSALMS 84 NEEDS TO BE INCLUDED that DOES NOT edit out the location pin of of the pilgrimage referenced as being to ZION.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterWaldo (talk • contribs) 20:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germane Scripture 

message: We should avoid this WP:OR and WP:SYNTH as clearly biblical Psalms  do not have any  connection with Quranic  Bakkah --Tritomex (talk) 00:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bakkah has nothing to do with biblical Bakah 

message: Historian Tom Holland's In the Shadow of the Sword makes a claim that Bakkah and Mecca are unlikely to be the same place.
This article only gives the traditional Islamic perspective (which, obviously, needs to be included). However, I think the fact that we are not certain about Bakkah being a synonym of Mecca must be included.
Should this be a new section? Should I make this change? I can summarize Holland's argument and cite his sources.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Windwaker (talk • contribs) 19:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You certainly should. This article has insane neutrality issues and attempts to prove something that any non-islamic source would dispute. I'm not sure why so many subsections were removed as well. --Monochrome]]_Monitor</small> 20:58, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do we have enough good evidence to state that Bakkah is Mecca? 

message: Alright folks, I am new here, but I couldn't really let this one go by.
Tom Holland clearly has made waves with his hypothesis. However, he is obviuously also not the only one. There are also other of non Islamic revisionist scholars who agree with him, or at least are highly doubtful that Mohammad was in Mecca etc etc.  (ref the Tom Holland documentary, Islam the untold story)
Now, If we are going to be editing pages and adding information, we should be fair. 
For example, one header can be the "Islamic Understanding of", and the other would be Peer reviewed works on such and such.
For example, Tom and his fellow scholars who have these opinions make several points as to why they feel bekka and mecca are not the same.
1) Geography: They reference the Koran and discuss how it speaks of fertile valleys, vineyards, livestock etc.  This is not congruous to what Mecca was or is today. (ie it is arid and inhospitable)
2) Relationship with Jews and Christians, who did not have a presence in Mecca. ONly in Yatrib or Medina were there supposedly 3 Jewish tribes or so.
3) Qibla locations at early mosques not pointing to Mecca.
We cant ignore that these historians are saying these things.  We need to be transparent and make their points heard.
Cheers  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe scott333 (talk • contribs) 17:47, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mecca and Bekka not to be taken for granted as the same place. 

message: Bakkah is not Mecca. Mecca never played any role in pre-islamic history nor was it a center of trade like islamic scholars claimed. Also early direction of prayers are pointing to Petra and not Mecca.
62.226.83.236 (talk) 01:27, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does this article repeat islamic nonsense? 

message: How can Baca be the same as Mecca if Mecca has no valley? Its a pure desert. Petra on the other hand has a valley.
62.226.93.15 (talk) 01:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Valley of Baca