Talk:Jesus/2nd Paragraph Debate/7

message: Could someone set these for all the authors? Next week, if I have time, I'll find what references I can for the rest, now that things are quiet. They ARE quiet, aren't they? --CTSWyneken 12:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wiki Links for notes 

message: ==Removing "Pontius Pilate" and "Sedition."==
BTW, the same anon IP who added references to prophet and Messiah (see below) also removed references to Pilate and sedition. All it says now is "was sentenced to death by crucifixion." Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 11:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we take into account the Testimonium Flavianum, which even if it's forged is very very old and would reflect the most well known parts of the whole affair, the blame is laid squarely at Pilates door. Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 11:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of Josephus, 64.12.117.6 has made other edits that CTSWyneken has reverted twice today already. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 11:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've reached my self-imposed, 2 revert, guard-dog limit. Would someone please put the paragraph back to status quo ante? --CTSWyneken 12:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I shall, but there was an intervening edit to the third paragraph (dropping the nicene creed) that seemed to be by consensus. I'm reorging this page to make it easier to point to discussion of 64.12.117.6's edits, but your comment above just caused me an edit conflict. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 12:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  At this point, I think we can safely return para. two to its state. We've almost come to a conclusion on the "Nicene" thing in third para., so it's probably safe to leave it changed, but we probably should get a "moving towards the exit" warning, so as to let they that would scream... yet if they will. --CTSWyneken 13:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Since Paul Maier is a noted scholar, but doesn't say that Jesus was found guilty of sedition, we might have to rethink this sentence. (no pun intended!)Drogo Underburrow 13:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  *sigh* No, I do not. Why on earth is it needed? If someone wants to add a detail, I'm inclined to ask THEM to look it up. This is getting really tiring. --CTSWyneken 12:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: They seem to be a troll who is trying to use the wiki to argue for his/her own POV. They refuse to sign their edits on talk pages and they post random facts and OR when they don't like what the attributed/cited sources say. OK, I'm ranting a little, but I tried to be nice for several days...but a troll by any other name would still smell of Gondor. ;) --MonkeeSage 06:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, you mean "Mordor", I hope. Gondor's the realm of the good guys :-) Drogo Underburrow 07:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doh! I've already been corrupted by the powers of the ring! --MonkeeSage 08:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 64.12.117.6 edits

message: BTW, the same anon IP who added references to prophet and Messiah (see below) also removed references to Pilate and sedition. All it says now is "was sentenced to death by crucifixion." Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 11:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we take into account the Testimonium Flavianum, which even if it's forged is very very old and would reflect the most well known parts of the whole affair, the blame is laid squarely at Pilates door. Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 11:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of Josephus, 64.12.117.6 has made other edits that CTSWyneken has reverted twice today already. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 11:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've reached my self-imposed, 2 revert, guard-dog limit. Would someone please put the paragraph back to status quo ante? --CTSWyneken 12:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I shall, but there was an intervening edit to the third paragraph (dropping the nicene creed) that seemed to be by consensus. I'm reorging this page to make it easier to point to discussion of 64.12.117.6's edits, but your comment above just caused me an edit conflict. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 12:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  At this point, I think we can safely return para. two to its state. We've almost come to a conclusion on the "Nicene" thing in third para., so it's probably safe to leave it changed, but we probably should get a "moving towards the exit" warning, so as to let they that would scream... yet if they will. --CTSWyneken 13:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Since Paul Maier is a noted scholar, but doesn't say that Jesus was found guilty of sedition, we might have to rethink this sentence. (no pun intended!)Drogo Underburrow 13:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing "Pontius Pilate" and "Sedition."

message: There has also been an edit by 64.12.117.6 that adds the clause "was additionally regarded by many as either a prophet or the Messiah" to the second paragraph. So, what do scholars say? Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 10:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  *sigh* No, I do not. Why on earth is it needed? If someone wants to add a detail, I'm inclined to ask THEM to look it up. This is getting really tiring. --CTSWyneken 12:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: They seem to be a troll who is trying to use the wiki to argue for his/her own POV. They refuse to sign their edits on talk pages and they post random facts and OR when they don't like what the attributed/cited sources say. OK, I'm ranting a little, but I tried to be nice for several days...but a troll by any other name would still smell of Gondor. ;) --MonkeeSage 06:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, you mean "Mordor", I hope. Gondor's the realm of the good guys :-) Drogo Underburrow 07:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doh! I've already been corrupted by the powers of the ring! --MonkeeSage 08:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Prophet or Messiah

message: Thomas L. Thompson, The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David, Basic Books (2005), ISBN: 0465085776
From Amazon.com: "From a prominent scholar, a provocative argument that the Biblical characters of Jesus and David should be viewed not as historical figures, but as embodiments of Babylonian, Egyptian, and Near Eastern traditions."
Anyone care to check this out? This is already listed as a source at Jesus Myth. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 11:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there anything like a page number for this assertion? I put the book in my hands, poured through it and could not find anything more than a summary of every scholar in the critical school. No luck on any position of his views. He does appear to be a scholar, but how prominent is up to question, since, prior to this debate here, I'd never heard of him. I'd also be careful of the above quote. Critical scholars have a way of saying, in essence, while Jesus existed, we can know very little about him. So, we should look at what he meant to people in those days. For us to list him in either camp, therefore, we need to pin down his actual words. So, anyone have a clue where in Middle Earth I should look? --CTSWyneken 12:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. I'm working through the "citation needed" tag section on the main talk page: John K dismissed Schweitzer, and this book didn't seem to fit. Looking though the reviews, it's not clear whether Thompson argues that David and Jesus are myth or mythologized. I don't have access to the book itself, hence my request for others to check it out. No page number is listed on the Jesus-Myth page. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 12:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd have to Interlibrary Loan the book again, so I'm inclined to leave him out of any of our documentation, unless we get a very specific reference. --CTSWyneken 16:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've posted a citation request to Talk:Jesus-Myth#Messiah Myth. However, that article is also undergoing an RfC, so we might not get a response for a while. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalkTCF 19:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've added his bio to the talk:Jesus/Cited Authors Bios page. Two reviews later, however, and I'm no clearer as to where he stands. I'll keep bopping around. --CTSWyneken 23:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible citation for nonexistence hypothesis