Talk:Charles Durning

message: I was watching Everwood this evening, and I saw Mr. Durning on it. He looks VERY different than he did since O Brother, Where Art Thou?...has he had some sort of stroke or heart attack or some kind of palsy that's affected his speech?  --65.190.163.190 02:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Everwood'' on the WB / medical problems? 

message: User:Monkeyzpop has made an edit to this article about some statement that Burt Reynolds supposedly made on a TV show, that he is disputing.  There is no reference to the Reynolds quote, so it is not really relevant to the article.  Just because someone else makes a statement about the subject of this article, doesn't mean that it deserves mention here.  Also, the alleged false statement was the Durning was the 2nd most decorated soldier of WWII, which Monkeyzpop disputes. If such a trivial thing deserves mention (which IMO it doesn't), then you would need to provide a reference that someone else is the 2nd most decorated soldier of WWII.  But then again, Reynolds is hardly an authority on military history, so what he says about Charles Durning's war record is very trivial, even if the editor could find a reference.  --rogerd (talk) 02:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: At the 2008 Screen Actors Guild Awards, watched by some 35,000,000 people, Burt Reynolds broadcast to the world that Charles Durning, a decorated soldier (1 Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts), was actually the "second most decorated soldier of World War II."  Since that time, the internet has been rife with discussions about whether that was true.  Many of those discussions have mentioned Durning's Wikipedia article, saying that they searched there for an answer but found nothing one way or the other.  It seems to me that something broadcast in error to millions of people and THEN argued about on many websites should well have the truth told about it on the appropriate Wikipedia page, rather than have Wikipedia be just one more place people CAN'T find the answer.  I do not know how to cite a reliable source that Durning was NOT the second most decorated soldier of World War II, because there ARE no sources or lists of people who are NOT the second most decorated soldier.  No one seems to really know who the second most decorated soldier was, and therefore no citation of the actual person can be made.  But the one undisputed fact is that Durning won 1 Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts, which is not remotely enough decorations to make him the "second most decorated."  I think Durning was a hero and deserves to be recognized as such.  But not by allowing untruths to stand.  Burt Reynolds made a mistake, but he made it to millions of people, many of whom are now trying to learn the truth.  Wikipedia ought to be a place they can learn it.  A Google search of "Charles Durning" "most decorated" will turn up many conversations among people who'd like to know if Reynolds spoke the truth.  A number of those conversations state that Wikipedia was no help.  I'm trying to provide that help. Monkeyzpop (talk) 06:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure what "most decorated" means.  If soldier A got 3 Bronze Stars and soldier B got a Silver Star and a Purple Heart and soldier C got a Medal of Honor, that would mean the A had three decorations, B had two and C had one.  Would that mean that A is "more decorated" than B or C?  I don't think so.  I don't think there is an established standard for determining what medals make a serviceman "more decorated" than another.  It is often said that Audie Murphy was the most decorated serviceman of WWII, which can probably be established regardless of the standard, but it gets tricky after that.  --rogerd (talk) 13:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you make an excellent point.  I'm supposing that Audie Murphy had more different combat decorations than any other soldier (the 3 Bronze Stars you mention as example would be 3 decorations), but it's very hard to sort out after that.  A soldier might well get a handful of theatre and campaign ribbons simply by being transferred a lot during the war, but that hardly makes him "more decorated" than someone who "only" got the Silver Star.  There seems to be this need  in human nature to separate things in a best-next best-third best sort of way, but I think it's a short trip to disservice down that path.  There also seems to be a need to pump up the war record of celebrities as if to shore up their "specialness."  Hence Burt Reynolds calling Durning the "second most decorated soldier" when he could have made quite the legitimate point by saying Durning won a Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts.  The debate over whether Reynolds inadvertently inflated Durning's record diminishes the importance of the actual facts.  As a combat veteran myself, I wouldn't want people arguing over whether I was second, third, or 345th most decorated.  That, it seems to me, would miss the point.  Monkeyzpop (talk) 14:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New assertions 

message: Charles Durning was presented with the French Legion of Honor on April 22, 2008 (last week).  The ceremony took place in Los Angeles and the presenter was Philippe Larrieu, Consul General of France.  Both his war record and his acting career were mentioned.
68.124.153.86 (talk) 00:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've cited a copy of the speech given as the source for the Bronze Star and World War II Victory Medal. He should have been entitled to the latter according to the requirements in the article. What about other "service awards", like the American Campaign Medal and European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal, which it seems that he should have also qualified for? What about unit awards (if we can get a clearer list of which units he was in)? Of course, a pic in dress uniform would help. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 09:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legion of Honor 

message: Other than his wartime experiences, the article makes no mention of Charles Durning's career pre 1973.  I'd be interested to learn how he came into show business - his turn in "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" shows him to be a gifted dancer.    Anyone have any further information ???  David T Tokyo (talk) 05:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He also appeared in That Championship Season on Broadway and that was arguably as big a boost to his career as The Sting. This article definitely is deficient in chronicling his career, with major gaps. It's great that his war record is chronicled, and it is certainly interesting, but it seems overweighted. He is mainly known as an actor, not as a soldier. Stetsonharry (talk) 04:08, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that his stage career is largely overlooked here.  Also, an important film role was 1979's North Dallas Forty, where he was billed 3rd, behind Nick Nolte and Mac Davis. --rogerd (talk) 21:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre 1973 

message: I realize it's no shame to have post traumatic stress disorder, but I think that any such assertions in an article must be sourced, as per BLP. Same for passage saying he was hospitalized for physical and "mental" wounds. Stetsonharry (talk) 22:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: BLP issue re PTSD claims

message: we all have watched the cuban crime rags to ritches film with al pacino , i am personnely convinced that charles durning done a voice over for an emigration officer at the early stages of the film  watch the start and the questions about the tattoo ,,,,if this is not charles durning voice then im an aardvaark.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.160.21 (talk) 03:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I presume you're talking about Serpico.  And yes, Durning was the voice of the Immigration Officer.  He's uncredited but the details are all there on IMDB. David T Tokyo (talk) 05:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al Pacino  

message: Every time I watch Star Wars episode IV (1977), I am certain I see Charles Durning as a foot soldier, Trying to defend the ship as Princess Leia records her message to Obi Wan in R2D2. It's right at the beginning of the movie. Is it him, or someone who really looks like him? He is not credited for being in Star Wars at IMDB. Wedinm (talk) 21:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's not him. Binabik80 (talk) 03:21, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Star Wars  

message: Regarding the lengthy Malmedy survivor? discussion above, today's AP story on Mr. Durning's death says he was "captured in the Battle of the Bulge and survived a massacre of prisoners." See:
http://news.yahoo.com/durning-king-character-actors-dies-nyc-075353360.html
Sca (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this shows that with (or because) Internet nowadays wrong stories, rumors and legends are almost impossible to kill.  They have their own life and re-surface regularly.  I am therefore not surprised to see this story coming upfront again.  The list of survivors of the Malmedy massacre is very well known and Durning's name does not appear in it.  This does however not mean that he did not do his duty during WWII.  --Lebob (talk) 12:13, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note, however, that the Malmedy Massacre was not the only massacre of prisoners to take place in World War II. While the Malmedy story does not seem to have much traction, it is possible that he survived a similar event elsewhere on the front during the Ardennes offensive. They were not unheard of where Waffen-SS units were operating; for example similar events happened during the Normandy fighting vis a vis 12th SS Panzer Division who murdered several dozen Canadian POWs in a number of separate instances.68.144.172.8 (talk) 13:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "Survived massacre"

message: Hi,
While the article notes there appears to be some confusion at Durning's war record (which unit he was with at any particular moment etc), I think the Third Army [art needs to be clarified. Durning stated he took part in the D-Day landings, and the article notes he was with 1st Infantry. The American D-Day beach landings were under the command of US 1st Army, and the 1st Infantry was part of the First Army until - afaik - until the end of the war in Europe. So when was he a member of Third Army, during or after the war?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:23, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Third Army didn't even exist on the continent until 1 August 1944 when it was activated under command of General Patton.2604:3D09:C77:4E00:8C44:3737:EB9F:C8D4 (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third Army 

message: It seems to me we should be able to track down (and then link to) Durning's Silver Star citation, which would provide date, circumstances and probably unit of assignment at the time.  But some quick Google searches, including this database of citations:  http://www.homeofheroes.com/members/04_SS/2_WWII/indexes/army/Army-D.html does not contain the name Charles Durning.  The rest of the Wikipedia article on World War II service is, as others have noted here, quite inconsistent.  I'm beginning to wonder about the veracity of Mr Durning's World War II story.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deemery (talk • contribs) 16:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The article states that Burt Reynolds said he landed in Normandy on a Glider.  He could not have landed on Omaha Beach and landed in a Glider.  Everything I have seen and heard otherwise says he landed at Omaha Beach.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zcoach00 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: On the news this morning, reporting his death, it showed a clip of Charles Durning stating he landed on the beaches. To paraphrase the clip somewhat, he stated he was the second out of his landing craft and the first and third men were killed.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

text: The news report can be found here on Youtube. The report by CBS, shows him at the 2007 National memorial day concert, briefly, narrating what his experience was like.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:38, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Finally, here is Charles Durning talking himself at the 2007 National Memorial Day concert. The video, by PBS, can be foundhere. He makes no mention of a glider landing, however Durning narrates his beach landing. experience. Intrestinly, Tom Hanks states he was a ranger, not an infantryman with the 1st Infantry.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:44, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Not to question the man's word, however there does seem to be quite some confusion in regards to what he did and what unit he served with. This forum notes that several books contain rosters of who were in the ranger units and Durning's name does not appear in them.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

text: The silver star list does say it's probably only 80% complete, though I agree that the contradictions in the story are kind of bothersome. I hope it's mostly true, but it sounds like at least some of the stories circulating are doubtful. Tarchon (talk) 16:21, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silver Star Citation 

message: In populating the Infobox, I made the assumption that Frances is Charles' sister because of the spelling of the name (instead of Francis), based on my experience (admittedly OR) and "Frances is a human name, the feminine version of Francis." at Frances (disambiguation). Now, the Early life section has been written in a way that claims Frances is a brother, though the cited source (IMDb) does not specify. Unless someone has a contradictory source, or different experience with the Frances/Francis spelling/gender distinction, I believe the section should assume she is a sister. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 23:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frances Durning 

message: *1. The only troops to use gliders on D-Day were units of the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions.
*2. 398th Infantry Regiment; part of the 100th Infantry Division
::Activated 15 Nov 42 at Ft. Jackson, SC
::Transferred 18 Jan 44 to Ft Bragg, NC
::Staged 30 Sep 44 at Camp Kilmer, NJ
::Embarked overseas movement 6 Oct 44 New York City, NY
::Debarked (unopposed) 20 Oct 44 Marseille, France; unloaded dockside
::Campaigns: Rhineland, Ardennes-Alsace, Central Europe; did not participate in the Battle of the Bulge-majority of the regiment’s combat occurred in the Vosges Mountains.
::Assigned (at various times) to VI, XV, and XXI Corps of 7th Army
::The Roll of Honor in the regiment’s history does not list Durning as a recipient of the Silver Star.
*3. 386th Anti Aircraft Artillery Automatic Weapons Battalion (semi-mobile)
::Activated 10 Jan 43 at Camp Edwards, MA as 386th Separate Coast Artillery Battalion
::Redesignated 30 Apr 43 as 386th AAA AW Battalion (semi-mobile)
::Embarked overseas movement 29 Jan 44 at New York City, NY
::Debarked 5 Feb 44 England
::Embarked 10 Jul 44 (?) England
::Debarked (unopposed) 11 Jul 44 France
::Campaigns: Ardennes-Alsace, Central Europe, Normandy, Northern France, Rhineland, Central Europe
::Largely confined to rear area duties – at one point it was one of the AA units defending Eisenhower’s headquarters. Later assigned to troops directly under command of Third Army (this explains the Third Army troops reference). Supported Third Army operations in the Battle of the Bulge on the southern shoulder of the Bulge. Did not engage any SS troops. The Malmedy Massacre occurred on the northern shoulder of the Bulge.
::The Roll of Honor in the battalion’s history does not list Durning as a recipient of the Silver Star.
*4. The Malmedy Massacre was exhaustingly investigated by the First Army. Durning does not appear in either the muster reports or morning reports of any of the units involved. He does not appear in the list of survivors. He does not appear in the list of survivors who were brought back to the massacre site. He was not a witness at the war crimes trial and he is not mentioned in any of the first person accounts of any of the survivors.
*5. The policy of not returning “recovered from wounds” soldiers to their original units was not a hard fast rule. It had much to do with the nature of the wounds, and the length and location of hospitalization. In any case, recovered soldiers were returned to units of their original branch. For example, tankers were returned to armored units, specialist troops (rangers, paratroops, etc.) were returned to those kinds of units, infantrymen were returned to infantry units. 
*6. “Stars in Khaki” by Wise and Wilderson provides little information. It is apparently based on a June 1993 interview the source of which is not listed. The piece on Durning does not refer to any military units, does not claim that he landed in Normandy on D-Day and credits him only with a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts. It does say that he was a survivor of the Malmedy Massacre. It also states that Durning was drafted in 1943 at the age of nineteens shortly before his twentieth birthday. The book contains a bibliography but no footnotes or citations within the text to explain sources.
*7. Whether true or not, the statements of the French Consul would not be admissible in any U.S. civilian or military court since they do not satisfy either the “Best Evidence” rule or the “Hearsay” rule.
*8. “Rangers in World War II” by Robert W. Black contains a complete roster of all Rangers who served during World War II. Durning is not listed. Black’s later book, “The Battalion: The Dramatic Story of the 2nd Ranger Battalion” goes into more detail about the 2nd Ranger Battalion. It contains a roster, list of decorations awarded, and some information on landing craft assignments. Again, Durning is not listed.
Oldbubblehead (talk) 23:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some information for your consideration 

message: I've uploaded the following scans of relevant docs:
* :File:Durning5355-1946Jan.PNG
* :File:Durning5355-1946JunCopy.PNG
* :File:DurningNARA2002.PNG
* :File:DurningNPRC2008.PNG
* :File:DurningPmtWorksheet-1946Jan.PNG
(still researching correct license and category tagging). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 00:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Docs 

message: More Durning documents have turned up. A report from the 12th Replacement Depot has him in England on December 20th, 1944. This is four days after the start of the Battle of the Bulge and three days after the Malmedy Massacre.Oldbubblehead (talk) 06:39, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There's no reason to display the medals or decorations he is said to have received. There are links to articles on the medals with pictures of them there. --Chuck Baggett (talk) 02:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  No need to display the medals. 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060625095909/http://www.army.mil/soldiers/apr1999/news/index.html to http://www.army.mil/Soldiers/apr1999/news/index.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Recent edits have removed a reference while asserting a claim "from IMDb" about Mr Durning's ancestry. IMDb is not considered to be a reliable source since it is mainly user-edited - just like Wikipedia. Let's discuss the editing here please. Shearonink (talk) 19:53, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: Not so far as I can tell, information does not appear in cited souces. Discuss here please. Shearonink (talk) 18:54, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  German ancestry?... 

message: The VA says he was at Malmedy
"During the Battle of the Bulge, Germans captured Durning. He was one of only a few soldiers to survive the Malmedy massacre when German soldiers opened fire on nearly 90 prisoners of war. For his injuries, Durning received his second Purple Heart."
https://news.va.gov/98192/veteranoftheday-army-veteran-charles-durning/
Montalban (talk) 05:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The VA says he was at Malmedy