Talk:Norman Vincent Peale

message: I came to this page to get some general info on Mr. Peale.  I was shocked at the bile spilling out from the article.  There is practically nothing on why he became so famous, or why his books were best-sellers.  Instead, paragraph after paragraph of obvious hate.  An article like this is an example of why no-one takes Wikipedia seriously.  Looking through the comments below, it seems some obsessive axe-grinder has appointed himself as the sole guardian of this article, and has reversed every attempt to introduce a more neutral tone.  This article needs attention from a moderator, pronto. Sarozek (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree with the two points raised by both these commenters: (1) this is an extraordinarily one-sided hit piece on Peale. I might have my own reservations about Peale's approach but the negative tone of the material here and the volume of it is just outlandish and clearly betrays a personal view. (2) Why is such a piece--in clear violations of WP's NPOV--allowed to stand?--50.68.134.51 (talk) 23:56, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I concur that this article reads like a one-sided hit piece. Undue emphasis is given negative criticisms of Dr. Peale. I’m not saying those criticisms are or are not valid — just that there’s little to explain the impact Peale had on many people or why  some very successful laypeople (i.e., neither theologians or psychologists) spoke well of Peale. —2606:A000:678C:9300:E0A5:7F08:F1CE:65DB (talk) 01:58, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  State of the article as of  August 2014: Relentless negative hit-piece on Mr. Peale. 

message: Presently, the phrase "positive thinking" simply redirects to "Attitude (psychology)," which is NOT the same thing. "Positive Thinking" was a major pop philosophical movement and needs its own article. Someone out there up to writing it? Lawikitejana 08:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Positive thinking" has no article? 

message: Please read the most important general editing guidelines in case of disagreements at Wikipedia:Stay cool and also visit Harmonious Editing Club</FONT>.
Trade2tradewell 19:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keep it cool 

message: Hi. A week ago I stumbled on these (I think) inappropriate additions and tried to clean them up. I don't know much about Peale (that's why I went to read the article!) but I'm pretty sure this material is out of place. Unfortunately its anonymous contributor seems persistent in maintaining the section in what seems to be a problematic state.
I don't care about Peale, but I do care about WP's quality. I'm frustrated that one determined person not following the rules can create a lot of time-wasting trouble for others who could be spending their time more productively on WP (or elsewhere). I like helping to keep WP in shape, but I want to do it efficiently. I'm new to this kind of situation and wonder what the next step should be. 
What would you recommend? Should an admin weigh in on whether this material fits WP policies? Should an admin restrict editing by new and anonymous editors? Should we take a poll? Or something else? I'd be happy to see how a more experienced editor deals with this kind of problem. Thanks! Bob schwartz 04:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:NPOV#Undue weight. I feel Peale's criticism as it is written now gives undue weight to a minority. There are probably other Wikipedia policies that would be helpful to gain consensus. Lengthy quotes are unencyclopedic prose, and could be summarized and paraphrased, but the sources should still be available to be seen. An admin could look at this article for greater attention, but I don't feel this issue is to the level that needs formal intervention. Finally, MELCSW, I suggest you get an account (if you haven't done so) and edit from it. As long as you edit as an anon, your edits are publicly associated with your IP address through page histories, and you can monitor discussions easier, among some benefits. Tinlinkin 12:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Next steps on Controversy section? 

message: -----
The ideas in the controversy section sound a lot like the anti-cult propaganda of the 70's and 80's on brainwashing or coercive persuasion. The APA does not accept this as a scientific theory, and courts don't use this argument any longer. See http://www.cesnur.org/testi/gandow_eng.htm for an article on this. I think the entire section should be deleted. --Chriscjs 10:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gaining consensus on the controversy section

message: I think this article is in danger of impasse if not already there. If you would like to see this article improved please join in. I didn't intend to spend so much energy here. I think some "fresh blood" is called for. MissGarbo 17:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help Please 

message: How can I embrace the whole section within the text of the mainpage? without going against copyright??
*Quoting Norman Vincent Peale:
:"You can, however, get your self-image normalized and begin to think of yourself as an adequate and capable person. Do this and you will become as visualized.
This is not just theory. This is a fact, as I know from personal experience. As a young boy I had an acutely painful inferiority attitude. I was shy, timid, and bashful. That word means abashed. I shrank from going among people. I imaged myself as very short on ability and totally lacking in any talent. I saw myself as a nobody. Then I found that people were agreeing with me. It is a fact that others will unconsciously take you at your own self-evaluation. [?!?]
But new self-knowledge came one day during my second year in college in a course in economics. The professor, Ben Arneson, later became a lifelong friend. As the class session closed he said, "Peale, stay a few minutes." He looked searchingly at me, "What's the matter with you? Just why are you such a worm? You go skulking around like you're scared. When I ask you a question in class you get red in the face and tongue-tied when I am sure that you know the material very well indeed. And," he added, "why don't you get over this inferiority complex and act like a man?"
Though angered by this seemingly ruthless treatment, I had to admit he was right about me. "I don't know," I said, "I guess I'm just a failure."
"Don't ever say such a negative thing! Never even think it," he thundered. "Draw on your faith. Ask your Heavenly Father, who made you, to change you," he said more kindly.
I stumbled out of the classroom, along the hall, and out of the building down the long flight of outside steps. On the fourth step from the bottom I stopped. And on that particular step one of the greatest things in my life happened. There I started on the road to believing in myself.
This is how it happened. I stood completely discouraged and hopeless. Then I did what I have been taught to. I prayed. It was a simple, desperate prayer............"look, Lord," I said. "You can change a thief into an honest man or a drunk into a sober person. Why can't you change a mixed-up, defeated guy like me into a normal person? Amen."
I guess I expected a miracle, but nothing happened right away except that I felt peaceful and sort of happy."
taken from POWER OF THE PLUS FACTOR, pages 59 - 61
:cheers, Austerlitz -- 88.72.5.45 12:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A real story I really '''love''' 

message: *
:Austerlitz -- 88.72.27.219 16:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.72.30.101 14:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some news about biography inside here? 

message: Why has this contribution of mine been deleted:
* In POWER OF THE PLUS FACTOR Peale states that one of the most remarkable men he ever met was a native of Lebanon, Musa Alami.
?:Austerlitz -- 88.72.10.138 07:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.74.242 11:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.72.17.171 (talk) 19:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.76.37 (talk) 11:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.93.181 (talk) 13:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural references and facts 

message: I have restored the POV tag on the Controversy section. It was removed by an anonymous editor without any discussion. I feel that before it can be legitimately removed, there should be some sort of discussion and consensus here that the section reads as a dispassionate encyclopedic article without an obvious author bias. Right now, I don't think that a reasonable reader could assert that. I think that the section also violates the undue weight policy, but that is a separate issue. Arnej (talk) 15:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Tag on the Controversy Section 

message: Sorry for the tone of that title, but seriously, if an article is going to be so outrageously slanted, you could at least give me a biased view of what exactly his outlook on positive thinking was.
I have just skimmed the conversation above this posting, and all I have to say is, this is why I find wikipedia to be very useful, but also why I will never swear by it. Just a bunch of bureaucratic bickering.
Wait, my mistake, in bureaucracy, #$#@ gets done once in a while. yeesh.
And just to prove I am not in the Pro-Peale camp (and I find it funny that I have NO idea what that entails besides maybe something to do with optimism, but no idea as to what degree, etc.), I opened this article thinking this guy would be an imbicile based on something I read of him from an external source. Basically, I am probably on melcsw side.
I know I have crossed several lines here. and for this I apologize, but you guys sometimes really make it hard to write a frigging research paper. Maybe I will do my social problems paper on wikipedia, or atleast misinformation on the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.111.126 (talk) 05:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely understand your dilemma, but Wikipedia is NOT a good enough reference for use in a serious research paper. When conducting serious research (as opposed to casual information-seeking), there is really no substitute for academic journals (found both online and in every university's library) and other near-universally accepted legitimate periodicals/outlets where academics, scientists, and researchers can publish their works. POV is such an issue on Wiki, that (without exception) every supervisor, boss, and instructor I have ever worked for/studied under has explicitly stated Wikipedia is not a quotable research tool. MG196 15:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What did he even stand for?!?!

message: I am amazed at the persistence of Melcsw. He/She must surely misunderstand the purpose of Wikipedia.
Anyway, I've sharpened up the sentence "The book has sold around 7 million copies (amazon.com) and translated into several languages." This statement gives no date, and only a very approximate reference source. It gives the impression that those figures are up-to-date, when in fact they are from 15 years ago.
My version reads "According to the publisher of the 1993 cassette edition, the book had been 'Translated into fifteen languages with more than 7 million copies sold'." It is followed by a reference to a specific Amazon.com editorial review.
I hope that someone will soon be able to replace my version with well-documented sales and translation figures from 2008.
Tptasev (talk) 17:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A drop in the bucket... ("TPoPT" sales and translation figures)

message: Removed section titled, "American Foundation of Religion and Psychiatry" that read like a gossip piece. The significance of this period of his life is highly suspect and appeared to be an unnecessary buildup for an additional criticism from a former colleague who was of no notoriety other than his brief relationship and falling out with Peale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.27.58.130 (talk) 11:18, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  American Foundation of Religion and Psychiatry 

message: "Change your thoughts and you change the world." Norman Vincent Peale —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.184.26 (talk) 19:04, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  quotes 

message: "When you become detached mentally from yourself and concentrate on helping other people with their difficulties, you will be able to cope with your own more effectively. Somehow, the act of self-giving is a personal power-releasing factor." Norman Vincent Peale —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.184.26 (talk) 19:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  quotes 

message: Lots of information about disagreements, political fights, but no useful description of the book (Power of Positive Thinking) that was so controversial and influential. Very frustrating. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: What's in the book????

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
::#In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

message: Gee thanks, Melcsw, for "verifying" the Seligman quote I added.  After calling it "vandalism" twice.  One might think that you were the owner of this article.
I'm sure you will defeat any attempt to clean this up.  I'll try, but frankly I find dealing with your hatred very wearing on my soul.  Try and stick to the voluminous quotes - the people you cite are better at maintaining a scholarly tone than you are.
I hope folks who read this article read the talk page as well and quickly seek other sources for information for Norman Vincent Peale.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arnej (talk • contribs) 04:15, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, I know this article is badly skewed 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Norman Vincent Peale. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101127095208/http://pacificaradioarchives.org/projects/transcripts/pdf/adlai_jfk.pdf to http://www.pacificaradioarchives.org/projects/transcripts/pdf/adlai_jfk.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 22:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Substituted at 01:29, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Trying to add info to the criticism section, just a bot that removes anything that is written. Perhaps freemasons "rule" the world as they say since he was a freemason. Nevertheless it's a bias and controlled article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrTruther1945 (talk • contribs) 20:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ya kinda need a reliable, verifiable source for stuff like that. Nevermind the bias-bots. Rklawton (talk) 02:33, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can't edit the criticism page because of a bot. 

message: As of the time of writing, it lists the following books:
# The Positive Power of Jesus Christ (1980) ISBN 0-8423-4875-1
# Stay Alive All Your Life (1957)
# Why Some Positive Thinkers Get Powerful Results (1987). ISBN 0-449-21359-5
# The Power of Positive Thinking, Ballantine Books; Reissue edition (August 1, 1996). ISBN 0-449-91147-0
# Guide to Confident Living, Ballantine Books; Reissue edition (September 1, 1996). ISBN 0-449-91192-6
# Six Attitudes for Winners, Tyndale House Publishers; (May 1, 1990). ISBN 0-8423-5906-0
# Positive Thinking Every Day : An Inspiration for Each Day of the Year, Fireside Books; (December 6, 1993). ISBN 0-671-86891-8
# Positive Imaging, Ballantine Books; Reissue edition (September 1, 1996). ISBN 0-449-91164-0
# You Can If You Think You Can, Fireside Books; (August 26, 1987). ISBN 0-671-76591-4
# Thought Conditioners, Foundation for Christian; Reprint edition (December 1, 1989). ISBN 99910-38-92-2
# In God We Trust: A Positive Faith for Troubled Times, Thomas Nelson Inc; Reprint edition (November 1, 1995). ISBN 0-7852-7675-0
# Norman Vincent Peale's Treasury of Courage and Confidence, Doubleday; (June 1970). ISBN 0-385-07062-4
# My Favorite Hymns and the Stories Behind Them, HarperCollins; 1st ed edition (September 1, 1994). ISBN 0-06-066463-0
# The Power of Positive Thinking for Young People, Random House Children's Books (A Division of Random House Group); (December 31, 1955). ISBN 0-437-95110-3
# The Amazing Results of Positive Thinking, Fireside; Fireside edition (March 12, 2003). ISBN 0-7432-3483-9
# Stay Alive All Your Life, Fawcett Books; Reissue edition (August 1, 1996). ISBN 0-449-91204-3
# You Can Have God's Help with Daily Problems, FCL Copyright 1956–1980 LOC card #7957646
# Faith Is the Answer: A Psychiatrist and a Pastor Discuss Your Problems, Smiley Blanton and Norman Vincent Peale, Kessinger Publishing (March 28, 2007), ISBN 1-4325-7000-5 (10), ISBN 978-1-4325-7000-2 (13)
# Power of the Plus Factor, A Fawcett Crest Book, Published by Ballantine Books, 1987, ISBN 0-449-21600-4
# This Incredible Century, Peale Center for Christian Living, 1991, ISBN 0-8423-4615-5
# Sin, Sex and Self-Control, 1977, ISBN 0-449-23583-1, ISBN 978-0-449-23583-6, Fawcett (December 12, 1977)
The problem is that it does not put them in chronological order, starting with the first book published and going up from there. It does not list the dates of original publication, only dates of the publication of later editions. 
e.g. Peale's "The Art of Living" was published in 1937. 
Or with the two at the top of the current list, 1957 is before 1980. 
Or The Power of Positive Thinking is listed as published in 1996 (after the author passed) but was actually published in 1952 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Positive_Thinking
I'll leave it to someone else to tidy up - I'll just highlight that the section, in its current form, is confusing and unhelpful. 
FWIW, Encyclopaedia Brittanica says:
"In 1935 Peale began a weekly radio program, The Art of Living, which soon reached a national audience ... Peale’s first book was The Art of Living (1937), and he also wrote You Can Win (1938) and A Guide for Confident Living (1948) before the appearance of The Power of Positive Thinking. Later volumes included Six Attitudes for Winners (1989) and This Incredible Century (1991). He retired as senior pastor in 1984."
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Norman-Vincent-Peale
Lauchlanmack (talk) 23:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Some of Peale's Books" sections should be improved 

message: The gaping gap in the "career" section of the article is ... anything about his actual career.
Here is a link to the Brittanica article, who actually cover this well, and provide a guide for how this can be done:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Norman-Vincent-Peale
Lauchlanmack (talk) 08:48, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The career section doesn't really discuss his career ...  

message: Anonymous unpublished  allegations made in 1960 by parties unknown are used to attack Peale-- the America First Committee had not been founded at the time alleged. The allegations are NOT based on reliable published secondary sources--of which many are listed in the Further Reading.  Especially obnoxious is the main source - an anonymous unpublished hate message.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjensen (talk • contribs) 03:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  false stories about Peale 

message: The section on "Political Controversies" asserts that in 1938 Peale appeared with various figures including Francisco Franco at a "Pro-American Rally" in New York. I don't see how this could possibly be true. Surely Franco was otherwise occupied in 1938? As far as I know Franco never visited the United States, let alone in 1938 in the middle of the Spanish Civil War. I'm tempted to simply delete his name but thought I should mention it here first. Royalcello (talk) 18:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franco in New York? 

message: There is a missing section on the depictions of Peale in the media. Specifically the movie One Man's Way  Vk2tds (talk) 22:45, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Depictions in Media