Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scottish Castles/Archive 1

message: I've noticed some recent entries by User:Lianachan which relate to places rather than castles, e.g. Thurso (now removed).  We will have to keep a careful watch for such additions. Slink pink 11:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to [[Castles in Scotland]] 

message: I have now looked through all the pages that exist on the Castles in Scotland page and have shortlisted my top 5 for the following reasons (no 1 being my favourite):
*5 - Balmoral Castle - This is a fine example of the minimum article length which I would like for any castle.  It is also a reasonable text/image balance.
*4 - Foulis Castle - Although there is no real structure to this article, I particularly like the mix of pictures shown and the arrangement of images in a column on the right.
*3 - Edzell Castle - I like the content of this article.  Having visited, the garden is the main feature to see, but the history is more important for the article.  Although I'd like more information (and pictures), I like the balance of content.
*2 - Kellie Castle - This has good visual appeal, structure and content.
*1 - Crathes Castle - Although I'd keep the images to the right, I like the structure and headings used.  They capture the information I'd like to see in each article.
Well, your thoughts are appreciated.  I think that if we can agree an approximate layout, then a template can be created.  Slink pink 17:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Using the above guidelines, I have expanded Orchardton Tower from a substub into a proper article. Is this what we are aiming for? ::Supergolden:: 19:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the good things about the 5 "favourite" castle pages mentioned above - and the new expanded Orchardton Tower - is the easy flow of text and pictures. A pic (or two) of the castle in pride of place looks great - map lower down seems good. Sometimes infoboxes can seem a bit indigestible/unattractive - prefer them discreet if used, and well down the page after the main text and pics.  (Joining in the discussion rather late . . .) --HJMG 15:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should avoid being too rigid with the structure. Some castles lend themselves to different outlines. for example i created the Muchalls Castle article and found a need for several periods of history.  I think to put the history under subsections creates an artificial heirarchy that can detract from the flow for the reader. Anlace 23:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: I have put up a request for a  template and category at Wikiproject Stub Sorting. I think this should be OK, so in a week we should have our own stub cat for stubby castles, like my favourite, Moreland Castle ::Supergolden:: 12:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent work Super.  This will nicely clear up the issue of which stub template to use. Slink pink 07:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Stub template and category now created following discussion at WP:WSS. All castle stubs can now be tagged with  instead of , which will sort all the stubs into :Category:Scotland castle stubs. ::Supergolden:: 08:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Category:Scotland castle stubs is now populated with all relevant stubs from :Category:Scotland buildings and structures stubs. ::Supergolden:: 08:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stub Template 

message: I just found out about this project.  Thanks, Slink Pink, for getting this going, and thanks, Supergolden for pointing me here.
Do any of you more experienced Wikipedians know whether Wikipedia supports some type of simple database functionality for articles within a category.  I'm imagining someone doing a simple search for all Scottish castles that are, for example, tower houses in Arberdeenshire.  We'd have to define a set of basic fields for Scottish castles -- location, type of structure, year of initial construction, year(s) of significant expansion, family (or families) with significant connection, etc. -- which would probably be reflected in an infobox.
Obviously, this could be done at the most basic level with a table on a Scottish Castles page with all of the data, but I have something a bit more interactive and integrated into Wikipedia than that.  
I have no idea whether this is possible.  If it is, I'd appreciate a pointer to an example of something like this elsewhere on Wikipedia.  (If it's not possible and the reasons have been discussed elsewhere, I'd appreciate a pointer to that.)
--JohnPomeranz 21:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats an interesting idea John. Unfortunatley I've no idea if it's possible - I don't think I've come across anything like that on WP. The only thing i could think of would be to have loads of categories,  but that would just get cumbersome. Any other ideas? ::Supergolden:: 10:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I love that idea!  I too have not seen any such thing, but will investigate.  My initial thoughts were to put that kind of information into an infobox.  This may provide a method of holding all the fields, but we'd still need a search engine. Slink pink 07:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Database? 

message: I have created a template for the project: 
Which looks like this: 
This can be put ON TALK PAGES of relevant articles to draw attention to our efforts. ::Supergolden:: 08:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Slink pink 16:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good, I will work through adding it to talk pages. --Cactus.man ✍ 12:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: Newark Castle, Port Glasgow was moved to Newark Castle, Inverclyde, the reason given in the edit summary being "std dab by local govt". This "std" is not reflected in the Castles in Scotland list, where Newark Castle, Fife is the only other title to use the current local govt. name.  Nisbet, Berwickshire uses the historic county, and Beaufort Castle, Scotland the country. The Earl's Palace, Kirkwall and Bishop's Palace, Kirkwall use the town name, Earl's Palace, Birsay the name of the village and parish. The "std" was not discussed on the talk page or here. Using the county or region name is useful for castles in the countryside, but not the normal usage for castles in towns. A move back to the original name has been requested at Wikipedia:Requested moves and votes are at Talk:Newark Castle, Inverclyde. Serious consideration should be given as to whether this new naming "std" should be introduced. dave souza, talk 18:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This 'std' is fairly 'std' when applied to towns, I'm not sure how it applies to structures. At present, as your quick survey reveals, it appears we have no 'std' at all. ::Supergolden:: 14:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Castle naming

message: This page is growing quite rapidly these days, so I would like your opinions on the proposal of creating a number of other work pages, like the progress page, to categorise specific queries and notes.  I don't know what to call such pages or how many we may require. Slink pink 06:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Pages

message: Hope everyone likes the Project Page reshuffle. I wanted to get more stuff from the discussions onto the front page, hopefully to encourage more involvement and discussion! Feel free to edit away... ::Supergolden:: 10:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Super, I've been meaning to sort it out for a while.  Slink pink 11:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Project page

message: Is there a standard format for citing those tourist boards/notices (those things with lots of info on the castle that are there for visitors to read) as sources. I added soume info to the Broughty Castle article that I got from some but I thought it would look better if it was referenced. Ydam 12:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't know that - do you know what the standard format is or how I can find it? Citing sources is certainly something we should encourage within this project. Thanks, ::Supergolden:: 18:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main details are at WP:CITE, WP:FOOT and WP:CTT. Personally I always thought that references were one of the most important things in an article. It's one thing to state something it's totally different if that assertion is instantly backed up by a source. Anyways, I suppose I would be better off if we asked at the relevent talk page of those links. Ydam 18:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citing Sources

message: I've taken some photos of Dudhope and Mains castles in Dundee but they don't have articles as of yet so I'm going to place them here so that when they do get articles they'll be easily accesible for those that need them. Ydam 15:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Ydam! I would only suggest that if you have images with no article, they would be better off uploaded to Commons rather than Wikipedia. They can still be used in the normal way, but images on Commons don't get 'orphaned' and deleted the way WP images do (although since you've put them here that won't happen). ::Supergolden:: 12:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats what I did. Ydam 13:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So you did, silly me. Thanks! ::Supergolden:: 13:02, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Here are a couple picture of Foulis Castle that were taken off the Foulis Castle page.  I took these a couple summers ago Foulis Side Foulis King-of-no-pants 03:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photos

message: At a minimum, I suggest all articles contain a sentence as follows: "The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland lists the site as a ____________ (e.g., castle, tower, motte, etc.) and holds records for the monument in its databases under map sheet __________ (e.g., NS92SE), site number _________ (e.g., 3).  See article on Crawford Castle.
It would also be helpful to researchers in history and archeology as well as persons researching ancestry or planning to visit Scotland to include (in each article re Scottish Castles) the raw data from public records as shown in the article for Crawford Castle.  A good primary source for location and archeological data for many Scottish castles can be found in the public records held in the National Monuments Record of Scotland database.  Subheadings listing or expositing this data could include those subheads shown in the article for Crawford Castle (i.e., exact location by map coordinates, archeological notes, etc.).  Also, please consider adding footnotes to your article.  The archeological data from the National Monuments Record of Scotland database includes footnotes and it would be immensely helpful if those footnotes were reproduced in each article on a Scottish castle.  I cannot recall if I had to pay for some of this information when I originated the article on Crawford Castle.  Not all of the information held in the National Monuments Record of Scotland database is available on line.  
This is NOT to say the article on Crawford Castle cannot be improved - it has a long way to go and I would appreciate any help you can give to improving this article as well as the Lindsay Tower article.  I initially had some trouble distinguishing Crawford Castle from the castle known as Crawford Castle or Spetisbury Rings, iron-age fortification and its ruins, at Spetisbury in Dorset, England (see Crawford Castle (disambiguation)).  There are likely more good connections to be made between Crawford Castle and William Wallace that have not been uncovered.
:Hmm. Well, NMRS data is extremely helpful in putting together these articles, and should certainly be a first point of reference for any Scottish Castle page. However, I would advise against including the raw data from the database, as well as the lists of Archaeological notes, footnotes, sources etc. This just builds into a bewildering mess of data which is not appropriate, in my view, to an encyclopedia. Don't forget that this wikiproject only exists within Wikipedia:  What wikipedia is not advises against this sort of thing.
:The RCAHMS databases can be accessed here. (I find PASTMAP particularly helpful) Any castle article should include a link to the relevant online section of the NMRS database, as I have done at Carsluith Castle (site reference included). The data can then be accesssed from there, and doesn't need to be copied into the article as well. What do others think? ::Supergolden:: 12:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: National Monuments Record of Scotland Data

message: Anyone heard of this one. I'd never heard of it before and it's not in the list but I was browsing through this leaflet and it featured it. I'd love to go and get a photo of it for any future article but aside from the fact that it's in Dundee I can't find any information on it or its precise location aside from a vague reference to it being north of dundee Ydam 18:20, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never heard of it, but a Google search came up with, among other things, this photo page with a map link, and this pdf which descibes Powrie Castle on page 11. Good old Google. ::Supergolden:: 09:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that, will have to go down later this week and get a photo Ydam 00:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Powrie Castle

message: Recently published: Castles of Scotland- Martin Coventry, Birlinn General 2006. It lists around 2700 fortifications in ScotlandBrendandh 22:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Useful Book

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory.  These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages: 
*User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory, 
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and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory.
The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. 
It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 20:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 23:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Bill, I checked and added Portal Scotland to our listing, but our wee project doesnt have any departments at present... ::Supergolden:: 10:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project directory 

message: Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afriad) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 15:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Day Awards