Talk:Bath, Somerset/Archive 1

message: This comparison seems rather odd, given that London, Paris and New York are much, much bigger cities. Also why London, Paris and New York, but not Tokyo, Sao Paolo or Devizes?. No other UK city article contains a similar comparison. I'm very tempted to just remove this comparison. What does the team think?. -- Chris j wood 17:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why it does any harm? Add a comparison to Tokyo if you wish - it merely serves to give people a sense of perspective. --Oldak Quill 17:37, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison of size with London, Paris and New York 

message: Is there any reason why there should be two maps giving the location of Bath? I'm tempted to remove the pink one, since most UK places use the green one. -- Joolz 17:52, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, the pink map should go.  Joe D (t) 17:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two dot maps? 

message: Bath Spa University College has now officially changed its name to Bath Spa University. I'm a student there and I recieved a webmail stating as much yesterday. Iron Ghost 11:16, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bath Spa name change

message: There are a lot of "facts" in this article that are not in anyway backed up.  There is a vague list of "references" that aren't connected to the text.  For example, the introduction has a population figure, which isn't supported by any of the references.  This is supposed to be a featured article.  Joe D (t) 01:09, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Is this the same city referred to in Chaucer's tale about the Wife of Bath? -Dozenist talk 01:55, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. -- Beardo 14:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bath in the Arts

message: There is an extrememly stubby article Bath Spa which probably either needs to be removed and turned into a redirect or a disambiguation page.  In varying different contexts 'Bath Spa' might either mean the railway station (which the page previously redirected to) or the new Thermae Bath Spa or the city of Bath itself.  I wonder if someone who has a better grip on how these things are generally done could take a look at the problem and sort it out? At the moment the page is something of a non-event. Mazzy 13:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship to Bath Spa 

message: I would have liked to find here more information on the hot spring themself : how much water, how it evolved, composition, what it is good for, what it is supposed to be good for, where it comes from, age of the water (how long it was underearth)...
It is at least why the City has developped and its name. Astirmays 11:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  springs 

message: I'd appreciate some detail (perhaps a new stub) about the 1969 and 1970 blues festivals which took place in Bath, host to the likes of Led Zepellin, Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd etc. TheMadBaron 07:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blues festivals 

message: There are many uncited statistics in the climate section. 50% of days are overcast is debatable. Why are there figures for 2003; shouldn't they be for an average year? Plus these figures for 2003 are incorrect, the "extreme" of 14.2C is very odd. If it is refering to whole months, I'd imagine August 2003 to have an average of at least 19C. 
The data for demographics is for the Bath and North east Somerset local authority. Bath only makes up about half of the population of this district, possibly slightly less. The paragraph starts by mentioning the surrounding areas, and then goes on to talk about only Bath, when it is still actually refering to the whole district.
The tourism section says "Bath is the most visited city outside of London for tourists travelling to the UK". Has anyone got a source for this? I thought it was Edinburgh but I may be mistaken.
Sorry to trouble you with all that. Marky-Son 00:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy of facts 

message: i thought of adding the fact that William Herschel lived and worked here. but could not quite figure out where it would fit in. --Hydman 09:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree he should be mentioned - there is a link to the William Herschel Museum already in the places of interest section. Maybe he could be added to the 18th Century history section? DuncanHill 10:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herschel 

message: I have already cleaned up this section (a while ago), but I think the list of "notable" secondary schools includes all but one of the city's schools. I thought that maybe the list should be made complete, given as a complete list (rather than a list of notable school) and maybe in bullet points rather than a messy paragraph? What's the consensus on this?Abbyemery 17:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i did it! 86.137.111.33 20:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tried to make the Education section more compact, with a right aligned table - but this doesn't work as well as I'd hoped, but is perhaps OK.  If there are objections we can go back. I think we need an Education in Bath article, so we can trim this section back.  BTW Monkton Combe isn't inside the city, so I'll drop that one. Rwendland 12:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, I've abandoned the align=right for the table, a shame as it looked nice with a recent Firefox & standard XP SP2 IE.  Though it did go weird on narrow window size. Rwendland 14:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm putting Monkton Combe back in, because it is part of the LEA. Feel free to discuss this further. Pittising 21:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ... but if you put in all schools of the LEA (Bath and North East Somerset), you'd need to put in all 13 secondary state schools , plus any more private schools. Monkton Combe simply is not in Bath. Rwendland 22:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education 

message: As a Bath resident I am concerned about the prominence of Sally Lunn buns in Bath related articles generally. This seems more of an advert to me for the resturant rather than an accurate refection of its importance in Bath.--An unsigned contribution. 
::I have never been to Bath, but Sally Lunn does appear very prominently in the article. From that, one might think she was one of the most important people to ever live in Bath. This is not true? --Filll 21:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sally Lunn's house is notable because it is the oldest building in Bath. The buns themselves are famous but not particulary notable. Also, they are disgusting. Not relevant, but my opinion. Abbyemery 16:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I understand that it isn't Bath's oldest building, despite its tireless self-promotion as such - but I can't remember which building has the better claim. Can current Bath residents help? I left in 1999. Notreallydavid 12:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're talking about age of buildings and prominence then surely the Roman Baths should feature above Sally Lunn's anyway? Since its probably THE oldest 'building'. Also I am a current resident of Bath and, as a resident, I can't say I have ever really visited Sally Lunn's or ever wanted to. Its not really a tourist destination either, its in the back alleys, hard to find and in general the Roman Baths, Costume Shop and Abbey draw far superior crowds. --Bottlecapninja 23:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I have done a little editing to remove what might be read as (perhaps inadvertent) promotional copy. --MichaelMaggs 19:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Food 

message: I investigated the Bath Hot Springs to substantiate the claim that they were the only hot springs in the UK. I was able to find that this is true, by some definitions, and compiled a list of 10+ definitions of hot springs with references. I also am not sure how many hot springs there are in Bath. Some of it depends on your definition of what a hot spring is, or a separate hot spring. Some of what are referred to as bath hot springs are in fact drilled wells. So to be honest I do not really know how many hot springs there are, naturally and otherwise, in Bath. I would steer clear of any claims of numbers (I was the one who made the list that apparently shows 5 in Bath. That was just a guess from the sources and I do not trust it that much). --Filll 14:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done.  Your skepticism is very valuable.  Shame on me for relying on WP as a source (no pun intended) —almost as bad as having no source at all. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bath Hot Springs and Explanation of my Edits

message: Should there be a section with this title? If done well it would be interesting and informative, but very long.Notreallydavid 14:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous Bath residents

message: 'Bath Abbey is...the largest concert venue in the city...' Doesn't the Forum have a larger capacity? Notreallydavid 14:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
====Survey - Support votes====
# Support.  I'm the nominator.  --Serge 03:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: # Support.  I'm the nominator.  --Serge 03:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - Support votes

message: # Oppose - The city is really the best to stay here. -- Beardo 04:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - Oppose votes

message: A title of Bath, Somerset implies that Bath, Somerset is the name that is most commonly used to refer to this city.  Clearly, it is not.  The most common name is Bath, period.  I prefer to use standard parenthetic disambiguation than to use a differerent/less common name in the title.  Is Bath (city in England) more acceptable than Bath (city)? --Serge 15:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per WP:COMMONNAME: "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative." Disambiguators are only necessary when the only acceptable name is in unavailable. –  Anþony  talk  16:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Bath, Somerset a "well-accepted alternative name" for the subject?  Is it even a name?  --Serge 16:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it gets a quarter of a million GHits... FiggyBee 16:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And Bath, England gets that many GHits again: half a million.  My question stands: is Bath, Somerset even a name for this city? Or is the name Bath, and Bath, Somerset is just a location-qualified reference to Bath?  If it's the latter, then Bath, Somerset is not a "well-accepted alternative name" for the subject, and should not be used for the title of the article.  --Serge 17:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bath, England seems acceptable to me as well. I won't express a preference for one over the other. As for the distinction between a "name" and a "location-qualified reference", I think that's just arguing over semantics. Even if you accept that Bath, Somerset is some kind of disambiguation rather than the name per se, there's nothing wrong with that. Parenthetical disambiguation is not mandatory when another method makes more sense. –  Anþony  talk  19:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not arguing over semantics.  Arguing over semantics would be arguing over whether name and "location-qualified reference" mean the same thing.  The underlying issue here is: what is supposed to go into a title (regardless of what you call it), and whether Cityname, Area-City-Is-In qualifies as that (regardless of what you call it) for a city article.  Another way to put it is: is adding comma-separated contextual information to the most common/simple name of an article subject in its title preferred to adding that or similar information in a parenthetic remark in the title?  --Serge 20:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When there is an well-known alternative name for a subject that is unambigous, that name is preferred over the common name with a parenthetical disambiguation. There isn't a general formula for this, as you seem to be looking for. Another example might be using middle names or initials to differentiate between people of the same name. –  Anþony  talk  22:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bath (city in England)? 

message: I thought I'd be spending the day with AWB changing links form Bath to Bath, Somerset (and a few to Bathing, Bathtub or Bath, Maine). That plan feels somewhat delayed by Rwendland's comments about the proposed move above. In particular, the comments that most residents consider that Somerset is somewhere south of Bath, and that the naming of Bath and North East Somerset suggests Bath is not part of Somerset. The article is presently in :Category:Towns in Somerset, the infobox says that both the ceremonial and historic counties are Somerset, and it is listed in List of places in Somerset. So is naming the article Bath, Somerset accurate in the sense of the naming convention? Do some of these other things need to be changed too? --Scott Davis Talk 01:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We had a similar discussion over at Talk:Cork (city) about whether the city Cork was in County Cork.  I never got a satisfactory answer, but many locals seemed to feel strongly that it's important to not imply that Cork is in the county.  At any rate, that was a key factor in determining why we went with Cork (city) rather than Cork, County Cork, and why I suggested Bath (city) here.  --Serge 03:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the issue is subtly different here, and it may be that neither Americans nor Australians will properly understand it. It appears that Bath used to be in Somerset, but may no longer be, although there are many references that appear to suggest that it is. We need to wait until the English people can confirm whether the name Bath, Somerset would be incorrect as it turned out that Cork, County Cork would have been. If Bath is not in Somerset, then the category hierarchy, parts of several articles, and a number of lists both here and at Commons are wrong, too. --Scott Davis Talk 05:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's pretty complicated.  Bath used to be in the old county of Somerset, but in 1972 it was moved into a new county called Avon. That was not a success, and in 1996 the county of Avon was abolished.  Now, Bath is back in Somerset again, and mail is, for example, often addressed to "Bath, Somerset".   Unfortunately, the county of Somerset is not the same as the local government body which controls Bath: the local authority as it's known here is a different entity called Bath and North East Somerset. As the name suggests, this authority covers only part of the old county of Somerset.  But in practical terms a resident would never say "I live in Bath, Bath and North East Somerset", but might say "I live in Bath, Somerset". More likely, however, he or she would simply say "I live in Bath", as that's all that most people would need.  So "Bath, Somerset" is at worst redundant, but is not wrong.--MichaelMaggs 19:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with the above & if Bath is not in Somerset because it is in a unitary authority, all the towns and villlages listed on List of civil parishes in Somerset as being in Bath and North East Somerset or North Somerset are not in Somerset either - which is plainly ridiculous. Those not familiar with the local history & boundary changes may wish to look at Avon (county) and Somerset (which includes Bath & lots of Bath places of interest etc). The "late modern" section of the History of Somerset contains some further explanation. Having looked at all of these & some other sources I am increasingly convinced that Bath, Somerset is the correct title if it has to be something other than Bath.— Rod talk 19:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems I've stirred things up, sorry I've been away today so haven't responded earlier. Bath is not in the Shire county (non-metropolitan county) of Somerset (i.e. for the purposes of local government), but is in the Ceremonial county of Somerset (though for Bath with a Lord Mayor this is of little importance). So Bath, Somerset would not actually be wrong, but I am asserting it is not something locals (or many others) would much use. In a postal address locals would normally use Bath and a postcode alone (the post office recommendation for Bath since 1974), or maybe Bath and North East Somerset, though Somerset (or Avon) would not confuse postal delivery and perhaps the older generation still use this.  Sorry this is so confusing, but reflects the fact that the Administrative divisions of England are not uniform, and for Bath has been changed twice since 1972.  AFAICT few Bath residents have a sense of belonging to Somerset, and even before 1972 Bath was a County borough since 1889 independent of Somerset county council control, rather than the county-town. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)#Counties of Britain isn't at all clear on the naming of places within a larger unitary authority, as opposed to town/city which composes the whole of a unitary authority: 'We should use the current, administrative, county ... We should mention historic (traditional) counties in articles about places ... but only as an afternote. If a place is a unitary authority and not administered by a county council, it is acceptable to use ceremonial counties as geographic references, as this is often more in line with common usage ... it is not useful to state that "Luton is a town in the county of Luton".'  Really this is all rather a mess, and hard to see a good way forward - hence my preference with sticking to the current situation if at all possible. Rwendland 01:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is say, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)#Counties of Britain didn't agree on whether to use administrative or ceremonial counties. I'm not sure Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) is intended to address questions like this; why don't you ask on their talk page? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At the other end of southern England there's been similar issues over Medway, a unitary authority area in Kent. The articles don't shy from saying that Medway and its towns are "in Kent" (indeed Medway includes both the North Kent Marshes and the Medway campus of the University of Kent). Saying Bath is "in Somerset" is in line with the part of the guidelines that say If a place is a unitary authority and not administered by a county council, it is acceptable to use ceremonial counties as geographic references, as this is often more in line with common usage ... which I recall is a broad compromise on the administrative vs ceremonial issue and accepting that some unitary authority names are either not useful for disambiguation or too unwieldy. Timrollpickering 23:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Bath "in Somerset"? 

message: While examining some of the links to Bath, I noticed that several are piped as Bath Spa, such as the home of Bath City F.C. and Team Bath F.C.. The main railway station is Bath Spa railway station, and one of the universities is Bath Spa University. Is "Bath Spa" a more formal or historic name for what is now commonly known as "Bath", or is it either larger or smaller? --Scott Davis Talk 05:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bath Spa refers to the spa itself (the hot baths) and more recently is used in conjunction with the railway station, a University and various sporting clubs. The city of Bath itself is never referred to as Bath Spa. Bath Spa is a dab page, and references should point there. The pipes ought to be removed. --MichaelMaggs 08:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So should they point to the DAB page for someone else to sort out, or should "...the city of Bath Spa, Somerset" ,  become "...the city of Bath, Somerset", or "the city of Bath, Bath and North East Somerset"? (note all examples have piped links) --Scott Davis Talk 11:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, I see the problem. In the two examples you've listed, the links should be to Bath, Somerset. I've made the corrections. Do you know of any more like that? --MichaelMaggs 18:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was Do not move.  Sorry, Duja - you got the hard one and I got the easy one. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is "Bath Spa"? 

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
====Survey -  Support votes====
*Support, sort of: Of these two options, Bath (city) is the best, because of the vagueness involved in whether Bath really is in Somerset or not, and because it's the primary topic for cities named Bath.  Note that the apparent consensus above was that the city was not the primary topic for Bath, but it is surely the primary city named Bath.  That said, I'm increasingly of the opinion that having the city at Bath was a better solution than either Bath (city) or Bath, Somerset — the other primary meanings are covered at the distinct words bathtub and bathing. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 11:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: *Support, sort of: Of these two options, Bath (city) is the best, because of the vagueness involved in whether Bath really is in Somerset or not, and because it's the primary topic for cities named Bath.  Note that the apparent consensus above was that the city was not the primary topic for Bath, but it is surely the primary city named Bath.  That said, I'm increasingly of the opinion that having the city at Bath was a better solution than either Bath (city) or Bath, Somerset — the other primary meanings are covered at the distinct words bathtub and bathing. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 11:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey -  Support votes

message: *Oppose.  I'm afraid to say that Serge arrives at his interesting conclusion only by creatively counting the votes in the Requested Move, above.  (Note that he counts all users who said they prefer "Bath, Somerset" as voting equally for that and for "Bath (city)").  The closure was prefectly sound, and correctly implements the majority view.  I regret that Serge so dislikes the result of his own poll that he feels the need to run it all over again only a few days later. --MichaelMaggs 22:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey -  Oppose votes

message: Just done a search as i thought that might be a solution. However, the most common refers actually to a bath (as in bathtub) ranging between 1 million and 11 million or more results, city of Bath had 308,000 and bathing had another million or so. Not looking good. :( Simply south 17:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common 

message: Is this now long enough to be split to its own article? Maybe List of notable Bathonians or similar? Foxhill 13:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with that. —Grstain | Talk 13:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree also. --MichaelMaggs 15:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have split the section out as of now to the newly created List of notable Bathonians article Foxhill 20:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous Bathonians

message: i'm no expert but there seem to be two errors in the climate section. firstly the ocean current which brings warm water to northern europe is the north atlantic drift and not the gulf stream (the gulf stream only goes as far as canada). secondly you mention that the dominant wind directions are south westerlies caused by the north atlantic drift cuurent (or thats what the link takes you two) when as far as i know its caused by the two permanent (well relatively) air masses which sit over the north and mid atlantic (high pressure over mid atlantic and low over north atlantic). these cause cyclogenisis which creates these south westerly winds —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.72.81.84 (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  climate 

message: This article is great, good work everyone! Bath is an amazing place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LostCity42 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bath

message: Bath is apparently on the requested maps page.  There is a creative-commons map of Bath at http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.38417536260512&lon=-2.364728055616425&zoom=14&layers=B0F that you could use. Also details of how map was created. 87.194.198.122 18:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Maps

message: In the Media section it's claimed that the total weekly 'sales' of the two newspapers is 178,000 (178k) – but then quotes 15k for the Chronicle and 30k for the Times.  Something must be wrong ... quota 12:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like the 178k was from when the Chronic came out six days per week, and also includes the circulation for the Bath Newspapers owned Somerset Guardian Standard, and West Wiltshire Advertiser. Custardninja 13:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media numbers do not 'add up'