Talk:Hans Maharaj

message: He had a daughter by his first wife, and speculation is that this disappointed him as he wanted sons, so he married again. I can't remember his first wife's name so I don't intend to edit the article, but just thought you guys would like to know. :-)--John Brauns 20:31, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hans Ji had two wives 

message: All we know in this article are his titles. Nothing about his parentage, exact birthplace ,education and so on. Maybe Rawat knows but i am not sure. If this information would be available it would be in the article already, i guess.Thomas h 06:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did he have a real name ?

message: As I suspected, this translation was done by someone that did not respect the original Hindi and added superlatives and exagerations that were not in the original discourse. I have sourced both the manuscript of the transcript as well as the book in which it was published in Hindi. I will provide these with a correct translation in a day or so, and replace with the corrected translation. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 07:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Original hindi

message: Jossi, could you please provide references for his legal name. Thanks. Andries 22:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Show me a place in WP in which references are needed for a name. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 03:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Why the insistance of associating Hans Ji Maharaj with Sant Mat? If there are sources for that assertion we can pesent that in the bdoy of the article rather than in the intro. The term satguru is the correct one, "perfect master" being just a translation/interpretation of the meaning of "satguru". Satguru is already wiki-linked. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 07:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Perfect Master is NOT the translation of Satguru. You can do better Jossi. Perfect Master is a term widely used with Sant Mat. The frequent naming  of the Sikhgurus in satsangs as perfect masters by Hans and the "early" Rawat are pointing in that direction as well. In that kind of groups we have a melting of many influences like Radhasoami and others, which is a typical attitude of Sant Mat, like perfect master lineage and so on. Thomas h 09:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

text: If you are so knowledgeable, please give us the Hindi, or Sanskrit word for "perfect master". If you find such word, you will see that it is सदगुरू , and that word transliterated is "sadguru" ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 12:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  i don't find a word in sanskrit as equivalent to "perfect" such as "sat" or "sad" at the sanskrit- english translation machine at the universtity in colougn. The "perfect master" as established by Sant Mat has its origin in murshid-e kamil,  which is probably urdu (and an arab derivate). The blending with hinduism through radhasoami and sat mat might have merged the different meanings of those terms "sadguru" and "perfect master" as it was more comfortable than the foreign tongue. But that doesn't mean that it is the translation of "satguru".As a matter of fact there should be more serious research on that matter instead of preferring the short cut style in favor of Rawat's wishes.Thomas h 17:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? What whishes? what nonsense?  ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 04:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, the main difference between Sat(d)Guru and Perfect Master is the exclusive lineage concept. Sadgurus may be special but not unique. The Perfect Master concept states that there is only one at a time on the planet. This was clearly proclamated by Rawat and his father, a clear sign of Sant Mat/Radhasoami influence.   Thomas h 18:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are evading answering to my question: What is the original sanskrit from which the adjective "perfect master" is tranlated from. I would suggest that before you make assertions such as the one you made, that you first research the subject. Thanks. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 04:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The reason why in this case references for the real name are necessary is because his real name is hardly known, unlike the real names in other biographies. Stating the real name without references breaks the rule of Wikipedia:verifiability. Andries 18:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Unknown to you, maybe. What makes you think that it was unknown?  ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 04:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The real name of Hans cannot be found on the internet. Can you please provide sources. Andries 08:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why should I provide sourse for a name? If it cannot be found on the Internet, does not mean anything beyond that there is no website related to the subject. In India, amongst the hundreds of thousands that know about this person, his name is common knowledge. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 09:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is not on the internet then please provide at least a source in book form or pamflet, or whatever. I do not think that this common knowledge, because his monastic name is far more well known. I mean, if it were common knowledge then it must be stated somewhere, but I could not find it. Andries 10:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that you did not find in on the Internet, means only that. BTW, Hans Ji Maharaj is not his monastic name. Hans was is given name, "Ji" is a prefix given to show respect, and Maharaj means "king" or "master" and it is added to many titles of respected persons. So "Shri Hans Ji Maharaj" is just a way to express respect as in "Mr (Shri) Hans Ji (respected) Maharaj (your excellency)". As for "Yogiraj Param Hans Sadgurudev" it means "Master/King of Yoga, ultimate Hans divine satguru". Al flowery way to express repect to a beloved teacher in the cultural context of India. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 11:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I agree with most of your assertions, but the fact remains that the name of "Hans Ji Maharaj" is by far the one commonly used and there is until now no published source for his real name in this article. Can you please provide one? Thanks. Andries 11:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know if there is such a published source in English, but I may check if there is one in Hindi. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 11:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that references for his surname are not necessary, only his first names. After all, the surname of his sons Satya Pal and Prem Pal are public knowledge. Andries 17:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: References for Hans Maharaj's legal name

message: I object to the removal of quotes. There is no such guideline. Some quotes are most definitively a good addition as they provide useful context. I also object, as very clearly explained elsewere in this discussion page, to interpretations of quotes, as it is editorializing and uneeded. Also note that I have alreday stated that I found the original Hindi for that quote and said that it is wrongly translated, and that will make that interpretation even more wrong than it is now. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 07:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Andries 08:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: no, it is fully allowed in Wikipedia and called good practices. Several serious biographies, like George W. Bush, Adolf Hitler, Jesus have their quotes in Wikiquote, not in the Wikipedia article. Andries 10:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I have no problem to re-insert the exact wording used by Kranenborg in the biography. This is NPOV because it follows the contents and structure of a scholarly article. I think it is an extreme and rather ridiculous consequence of your prohibiton of inserting an accurate summary of the quote. But if this is what it takes to solve the dispute then it is okay for me. Andries 10:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Note that it could have been more gracious of you if you had omitted characterizations of "ridiculous" and "extreme" in your comment. From these comments to escalate to personal attacks is just a small step, as you well know it.  From my side of things, I want you to know that I will not get dragged into such low levels of uncivility as to engage in that kind of behavior myself. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 10:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of quotes 

message: Andries, please help me in not assessing your contributions to this article as being made in bad faith. So far, your attitude in this article certainly makes it very difficult for me to accept that tey are made in good faith. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 10:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And how do you think that I perceive some of your actions in this article? I think that you systematically and unfairly marginalize and even remove alternative viewpoints, especially in external links and references, not just confining yourself to the main text in the article. Andries 10:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good faith?

message: #Histrionic Talents, Drama, story telling techniques, mnemonics etc.,
#Making musical Instruments, simple mechanical devices etc.,
#Playing Musical Instruments (i.e.) Instrumental music including jalatarangam- creating music with water, percussion and string instruments.
#Decorating, Dressmaking, costume making, artful dressing and personal grooming.
#Ornaments and head adornments
#Singing and Dancing , practicing fine arts
#Making beds, Bedroom decorations
#Garland making, flower arrangement, designs with grains on the floor like Rangoli
#Playing games like dice
#Mastering eroticism as per Vatsyayana, erotic devices and sexual arts
#Making honey, liquor , beverages and desserts
#Plucking out arrows and healing
#Cooking, eating and drinking skills
#Horticulture, forestry
#Breaking and pulverizing hardrock, mining
#Making Medicines from herbs
#Sorting, Mixing, Isolating 
Ingredients
#Making and using Astras and Sustras
#Wrestling, Boxing, Gymnastics, physical culture, body building etc.,
#Making ICBM
#Parades , Army Bands and Dharmic warfare
#Ratha, Gaja, Turaga wars ( Chariot, Elephantry and Cavalry)
#Asanas, Postures & Mudras
#Training elephants, horses, birds
#Making Vessels of clay, wood, bronze 
#Drawing
#Making Paints & Painting
#Architecture, Sculpture, house and temple construction, mosaic tiling
#Mixing air, water etc (Air Products and Water Products)
#Boats, Ships, Chariots etc
#Making threads, ropes etc
#Weaving and Spinning
#Diamond , Precious Stones and gems-distinguishing them from ordinary ones.
#Alchemy, Chemistry , preparing ointments, unguents for charm and virility
#Jewellery making including artificial jewelry
#Gold Plating, metallurgy
#Skinning and Preserving bodies
#Leather Technology
#Dairy Farming
#Tailoring, Sartorial skills and Embroidery
#Swimming and water sports
#Cleaning houses and vessels
#Laundering and Washing
#Hair dressing and Shaving
#Managing Oil Resources
#Having control over others' minds, spells, charms ,Omens
#Tilling and agriculture
#Handicrafts including Carpentry, furniture making and furnishing
#Making Vessels of glass , ceramic and pottery
#Drawing water & resources
#Gardening and Fencing
#Caporisoning elephants etc
#Child rearing & Pediatrics including doll making and toy making for kids
#Punishing guilty appropriately by Law and Order
#Learning Languages / dialects (both native and foreign), literary excellence, semantics
#Preparing 'Tambool' etc.
#Composing impromptu poetry
#Preparing perfumes, cosmetics, playing poetry games, oratory, elocution, prosody, rhetoric
#Sorcery, Conjuring, Sleight of hand, Magic, Illusions, Impersonation
#Composing Riddles, Rhymes, Verses, Puzzles, Tongue twisters and involved recitations
#Making swords, Staffs, Archery
#Training fighting partridges and rams, Cock fight, Bull fight etc.,
#Teaching parrots, mynas to talk and training animals, Veterinary science
#Writing in cipher codes and languages, secret mantras, coding and decoding. 
Ref:  Ramaswamy, Anbil  Hinduism Rediscovered - A Contemporary study of Hindu thought from Vedic roots - Chapter: Sources of Knowledge- Aagamas, Nibandhas and 64 Kalas. The Tiruvenkatam Group, Kuwait (2004)
:Thanks I was not aware of the quote appearing in the Satguru book, but please do not remove scholarly interpretations of Hans' life. Feel free to insert your own translations and the Hindi original. Andries 11:45, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The 64 Kalas (arts)

message: I located a book in English published in 2000 by DUO in New Delhi (Hans Jayanti), with detailed historical information about Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. Over the next few days and as time permits,  I intend to add considerable material to this article, culled from this book and covering the biographical aspects below:
* Early life
* Details about Sri Hans involvement with Arya Samaj
* Encounter and relation with Sri Swarupanand
* Early work as a teacher
* Publication of his book Hans Yog Prakash
* Short chronology of his travel through India
* Marriage to his second wife (reasons and dates)
* Hansadesh magazine publishing and forming of the Divine Light Mission
* Last weeks of Shri Hans life
All the above will precede the succession section.
I am also in the process of requesting a photograph of Shr Hans Ji Maharaj, that could be uploaded with the necessary permission/license for inclusion in WP. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 00:43, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry If I deleted material that was properly sourced. Note that any worthy additions will be welcome. I tried to find some more information on Swarupanand, but I have failed so far. If you have good material about Swarupanand and other groups that evolved from his teachings that will be great, as I have absolutely no problems in presenting additional information that can enhance this and other articles. On the contrary. Could you please provide the name of the book in which Lane discusses Hans Ji Maharaj and/or Swarupanand? Thanks.≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 19:12, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: As a clarification that I feel is due, please note that I do not have any intentions to "prove" one way or another anything related to lineage (personally I find this whole issue of no consequence, but we need that info for historical accuracy). If there is material about the Sant Mat, Advait Mat or Radha Soami/Radha Soami Satsang Beas lineages, these can go in their respective articles. We can then wkilink from here to the appropriate articles when we discuss the different versions about Sarupanand's succession. FYI, I checked these articles (Radha Soami redirects to Sant Mat, and there is no article on Advait Mat) and could not find any mention of Swarupanand or Sarupanand. As you are evidenty more familiar with the subject, I would suggest that you work on these articles to fill any gaps that obviously exist, so that we can have some kind of historical accuracy with respect to the diverse descriptions of the succession to which we can refer to and link from this article. Don't worry about the English, we can all chip in and help with grammar and copyedit. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 01:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: the hint to advait mat is to be found in the appendix of "THE MAKING OF A SPIRITUAL MOVEMENT" by Juergensmeyer. Hummel also mentions the Radhasoami connection.Thomas h 06:31, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: (Was not David C. Lane at one time the graduate assistant of Juergensmeyer? Do you have the ISBN for that book?) ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 06:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Thanks. I also found a mention on Vishal Mangalwadi & Kurt Hoeksema's , The World of Gurus (1977).  New Delhi: Vikas Publishing House on pages 92, and page 200 (There is also a revised edition dated July, 1992 by Cornerstone Press in Chicago; ). Will provide some material from that source soon. I also found that Swarupapand was known by several names such as "Sarupapand", "2nd Master", "Sri Nangli Sahib", and "Guru Maharaj Ji". Swarupanand's teacher was also known by many different names, adding to the confusion ("Dayal Ji", "Advaidanta", "Adwedanta", "Dada Guru", "Maharaj ji") ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 06:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ISBN number is not available, it probably has never got one. There are excerpts and the cover at  according to them it was published at 
*    SHRI ANANDPUR TRUST    P. O. SHRI ANANDPUR    Distt: Guna (M. P.) (1975)
*and printed at:-    ANAND PRINTING PRESS    SHRI ANANDPUR
*and is maybe still obtainable from:-    ANAND SANDESH KARYALAYA    P. O. SHRI ANANDPUR    Distt: Guna (M. P.)
*This book is available at:-    UCLA in Los Angeles, California, USA,
09:35, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The more I study this I see a huge confusion in many scholars about Sri Hans lienage. Some place him in the Rahda Soami, others in Sat Mat, others in Advait Mat, and others mix and match. Factual and historical accuracy will be quite difficult to assert, IMO. I see that we will only be able to describe the different interpretations by scholars that made assertions about the lienage. Some of them cite one another making it quite difficult to ascertain the initial source for their assertions... ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 17:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New source - considerable additions to article 

message: maybe not so important but not accurate. While the naming of Sat pal and Prem Pal are right in the braces. Raja and Bhole are just the titles and not their real names. Raja's real name was something like Dharam Pal or similar and Bhole's i don't know. Can anybody clarify that? Thomas h 07:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  naming of the kids 

message: I will move all references to the new citation format later today. ≈ jossi  ≈ t • @ 20:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New citation format 

message: The article is well sourced. If there are specific aspects that are disputed, please make a comment in talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: It is completely inappropriate that tags are being removed, when it is blatantly obvious that there are violations of WP:OR, and whole paragraphs of uncited material.  Cirt (talk) 05:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The only blatant thing here is your behavior. The source was cited at the top of the paragraph. I have added it now to all the  paragraphs using that cite. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your lack of ability to WP:AGF in this instance, and instead of simply fixing the problem of frankly a very inadequate use of citations, and instead commenting about another editor, instead of focusing on the content is also a "blatant" and disturbing problem.  Not to mention your continued activity on these series of articles, in the face of multiple posts from neutral editors to your talk page and elsewhere imploring you to stop editing them - for it reflects very, very badly on this Encyclopedia project.  Cirt (talk) 17:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  You need to cool it, Cirt. Clearly, given you past, you may think that is is appropriate to retaliate in these circumstances. Well, don't.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Given your past, you may think it is appropriate to use violations of WP:NPA, instead of dealing directly with an article (an article which is part of a series of articles that multiple other editors have asked you to stop editing due to their voiced concerns of conflict of interest issues) instead of simply dealing with discussions about article content.  Well, don't.  Cirt (talk) 18:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will continue editing this article and providing sources, Cirt. If you have any problems with it, you can file a complaint. Just be sure to know that I will not sit idle and allow retaliation from your side in these circumstances, given your past interactions with me and your previous editing behaviors, which I have respected so far in not disclosing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Resorting to threats and intimidation instead of simply keeping to a discussion of issues of article content?  Interesting.  Cirt (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Focus on article content, instead of mis-using the situation to retaliate. That is not cool. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Focus on article content, instead of false claims about saying: "The only blatant thing here is your behavior. " - when you obviously had to go into the article after I put in the tags, and fix unsourced violations of WP:OR.  That is not cool.  Cirt (talk) 18:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Tagged 2 more instances of blatant violations of WP:OR as well as WP:LEAD in the lead/intro of the article, that are unsourced, and not cited to anything else later in the article itself.  Cirt (talk) 17:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can you please drop the blatant? It is not helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you please drop the issues you have with commenting on contributors, and instead focus on commenting on content?  It is not helpful.  Cirt (talk) 18:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure I can, and you can start by stopping the use of "blatant" and discussing me as you did above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but it would be best for you to abide by the good advice given to you by other editors (not myself, mind you) from your talk page.  For example: , who noted in his edit summary " please stop editing this set of articles".  His words, not mine.  Cirt (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Good advice, .  I will agree to it and stop editing this article, even though I have zero conflict of interest with the subject matter.  But will  ?  Cirt (talk) 18:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure, Will. I will take a break. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Sure, Will. I will take a break." is certainly not "stop editing this article" - but I guess it will do for now.  Thanks .  Cirt (talk) 18:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I am taking a break for now, and I will resume editing this article at any time I see the need to make improvements. You can do the same, if that is your intention (improve the article) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really in line at all with what  was recommending.  I will "stop editing this article" as suggested by .  Just wanted to point that out.  Cirt (talk) 18:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  You always want to have the last word, right Cirt? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blatant violations of [[WP:OR]] 

message: , direct quotes need citations at the end of sentences in which they appear, not just end of a paragraph.  Please do not remove the  tags, until this has been satisfied.  Thanks, Cirt (talk) 18:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obvious citing issues and problems in article of lack of cites to back up direct quotes 

message: All this could have been avoided by stating something like this:
: "Jossi, I understand that you have decided not to edit such articles, and  I respect that. But stumbling across this article I could not help it but notice that several statements remain unsourced, and as such they may be original research or unverified facts. As you are knowledgeable on the subject, I will be happy to improve the article if you can provide sources that are suitable to support the article text."
This type of approach, I would argue, would have been a much better way to address article quality concerns without resorting to unnecessary drama.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Jossi, I understand that you have decided not to edit such articles..." - But that would be false, because you are editing "such articles".  What's the point of making that sort of statement, if it's just not true?  Cirt (talk) 20:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding Jossi's text, it's not traditional to treat articles as if they are owned by an editor whose explicit permission must be requested before editing tags are added. Let's just assume that what he wrote is an implicit part of requesting sources. Regarding Cirt's action, editing tags should be used judiciously to address the greatest problems first. Too many tags at once won't speed up the improvements and are unsightly. As for Jossi's intention, he's now stated that he has decided to not edit articles related to Prem Rawat so there's no reason to rub his nose in it. As I said above, both of you appear to have a deep concern for this topic that appears to make it difficult to edit neutrally and calmly. I suggest that both of you stop talking about each other, and maybe even find other topics to edit.   ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's all well and good, I'm just saying it is one thing to say you are not going to edit a certain set of articles...  Cirt (talk) 22:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  ... and will not edit a certain set of articles, unless I have very good reasons to do so, and these edits will stand the scrutinity of my peers. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Either you will edit the articles, or you won't.  These open caveats and clauses with your own loopholes make it seem to others that these are half-hearted statements (shown to be the case in this instance, among others).  Best to make a much simpler statement, something like: "I will no longer be editing these articles (then list them) ... and will instead make comments and provide sources on the talk page of said articles."  This would be something that is even encouraged, for example to foster participation among the public relations representatives of companies on this project, without raising controversy by editing the articles of their companies directly that they represent.  Cirt (talk) 05:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A different approach 

message: I just came across this:
It's mostly available on Google. The book has about 6 short pages on "Hams Ji", his teachings, and his organization. This may be a suitable sorce for the DLM  article too   Will Beback  talk   18:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another source 

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thread_title:  External links modified