Talk:Racism in China

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved. There really isn't anything in the old article at Racism in China to merge, but I have moved it to Summary of racism in China and it should probably be deleted. Anyway, consensus is that the common name for racism is, in fact, "racism", and that consistency with other countries' articles about racism effectively mandates that this page be moved to the proposed title. There was great discussion about the scope of this title. As the title stands, it sure looks like it would be about the entire history of racism in China, a topic that will probably deserve multiple articles about multiple epochs in Chinese history. For now, the page is moved.   Red Slash 17:14, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: Racism in China titles a page with content and so it is ineligible as a new "target" title. If a merger is preferred, then please withdraw this request and follow the instructions at WP:MERGE. Otherwise, a new page name or disambiguator will be needed for the targeted article. This request has been modified to reflect that fact. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 02:12, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The right solution is to flesh out the Racism in China article, not to merge in a bunch of material about a different topic. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:55, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , Per my comments above and below, it's the same topic. Ethnic issues is just a Wiki-invention that has been used by people who either misunderstand that racism is a broad term that applies to ethnicity, not just race (even UN agrees on this), or worse, used by those who want to muddle the waters and deny that racism is an issue in their country. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:21, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: So you're saying that, for instance, categorization of Han Chinese subgroups or Qing-dynasty conflicts between Hui and Manchus are racism? Is this analysis supported by reliable sources? To be honest this article is a mess and I'm not sure what should be done with it, but I don't think the answer is to fill the Racism in China article with a bunch of information about Chinese ethnicities and ethnic conflicts. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:22, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , Some of this content simply needs blanking (or merging somewhere else). For example, "categorization of Han Chinese subgroups" is not even an "ethnic issue", it is just a weird see also. Caused, probably, by the very fact that this article using an ambiguous name inviting such a see also maybe it's related subsections. Anything that is not about racial or ethnic discrimination should go, as simple as that. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:48, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, that sounds fine to me. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 08:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , In that case, maybe you can reconsider your object vote above? Note  I have removed the most off topic sections (which don't belong in the current article anyway). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:12, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll switch to neutral. There is still material that I don't think fits in the Racism in China article, but the focus is clearer now and a merge seems feasible. More cleanup for focus, NPOV, and verifiability will still be needed. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 10:36, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

text: If you see "ethnic issues" as a euphemism to obfuscate racism, I can understand that.  I was being charitable and assuming that "ethnic issues in..." is a (vague) descriptive title which is certainly permitted at Wikipedia per WP:NDESC.  I don't oppose the primary article being called "racism" or even having only one article to avoid a FORK, but if the title is to be "racism", then sections like Summary of Han Chinese don't belong. —  AjaxSmack  16:10, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In post-modern and especially in postcolonial studies, racism definition is quite broadened (rightly so) to include both ethnic and cultural chauvinist concepts.--౪ Santa ౪99° 20:21, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

text: , As Santa said above. Racism is not just about race, the term is much more broadly understood these days. This is not a fringe viewpoint, this a generally accepted scholarly consensus. That said, the section you linked, as well as 'Summary of varieties of Chinese', should be removed - not only they are irrelevant to anything related to racism, but in fact, they are not relevant to 'ethnic issues'. Listing of ethnic groups/languages is not an 'ethnic issue' anyway. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:29, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

text:  Everything before 19th Century, frankly.  Heck, I'd remove everything that is not "Modern China".  The word is being tossed around quite loosely and anachronistically here, without paying attention to scholarship on Chinese racism.  There are articles on Sinocentrism and Zhonghua minzu which go unmentioned, nothing on Liang Qichao, "Great Han" race construction and historiography, etc. There deserves to be an article on "Racism in China".  But this is not it. It just seems like a random slapdash crime blotter pasted together for no reason.  Walrasiad (talk) 03:50, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: , The fact that this article is poor and incomplete doesn't mean it is not about racism. There is no such thing as ethnic issues (if you disagree, please define this concept by writing an article about this - still a red link). You are welcome to both expand this article, and remove parts you feel are irrelevant. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  To reiterate from the WikiProject, racism is about "race", a 18th/19th Century construction by European "scientists".  There actually has been a construction of "Han race", by Chinese "scientists" in the late 19th Century, and Chinese revisionist history applying them retroactively, both feeding into something that is quite identifiable as "Racism in China" in the modern era.  However, one should be very careful in Wikipedia using these terms haphazardly and applying them anachronistically to pre-modern China without solid scholarly backing at every turn. Not only is it imposing a modern Western ideological prism where it does not fit, but even more problematically it is inadvertently endorsing a modern racist Chinese view of Chinese history.  Walrasiad (talk) 05:30, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: These are important points. Whether or not the two articles are merged, this one needs a lot of cleanup and the other one needs a lot of expansion. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:11, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

text: , And I concur that eventually, the article should discuss those issues, which right now it pretty much does not. That fact, however, bears little relevance to the topics of merging or renaming, which for the n-th time, simply center on the issue that I keep pointing out and you keep ignoring - namely, that there is no well-defined construct as ethnic issues (either on Wikipedia or in academia). This article was a mess precisely because it was using a weasely, ill-defined concept as its name. After the cleanup (removal of topics that are irrelevant to racism), the article's present content is quite relevant to the topic of racism (which also, as explained is inclusive of the idea of ethnic discrimination). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:52, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 19 March 2021 

message: I saw  that was adding by Solniun(Rajmaan).Does anyone know where  was copied from? Because this edit adds too much content and it takes too much time to check, it is difficult to confirm reliability.If anyone knows the copy source, we can check from the copy source's edit history. Rastinition (talk) 05:21, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  About https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Racism_in_China&diff=987140450&oldid=986740874