Talk:Ājīvika

message: In the article it is said:
The Ajivikasa are thought to have existed in India in the 14th Century, but the exact dates and extent of their influence is unclear. Inscriptions from southern India make reference to the Ajivikas as late as the 13th Century, but by this point in history the term Ajivika may have been used to refer to Jain monks or ascetics from other traditions.
Is it correct? Is it XIV century or XIV century Bce? If it is XIV, it does not fit with the rest of the article. --
: It's the 14th Century CE/AD, not BC.  While most of the specific information that we have about the Ajivikas is about events and individuals of the last few centuries BCE and the early CE centuries, there are sporadic references to them in literature up until the 14th Century.  Detailed information stops coming in during the post-Ashokan era, but the odd mention still occurs- however, it's not clear if these sporadic mentions indicate a truly continuous tradition with the Ajivikas mentioned at the time of the Buddha, or if Adjivika came to be a generic term for individuals who were renunciants who begged for alms.  I think one of the articles in the links/citation portion makes this more clear. --Clay Collier 08:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable references to the Ajivikas are found in Tamil classics Manimekalai and Nilakesi, both not later than 6th cent CE. They seem to have disappeared/assimilated in North India much earlier. Mentions after them are quite ambiguous. 14th Century CE/AD inscriptions refer to a tax "Acuvam Avalambanam", which some scholars interpret as a tax on Ajiviakas.Malaiya (talk) 02:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: A good example of conflation of Nirgranthas and Ajiviaks is seen in Asokavadana#Ashoka's Buddhist kingship.Malaiya (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates 

message: Is Ājīvika a nāstika school? I thought it was, but can't find a reference saying that. --SJK (talk) 12:20, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Āstika and nāstika]] 

message: Is "Ajivika population statistics have been included with hindus", a proper reason/reference to include Ājīvika to Hinduism?. There are literature evidences like Manimekalai dated 100 AD-200AD which explains 6 different types of religions(philosophies) in ancient India, in which Vaidhika(Current Hinduism) and Ājīvika are treated as different philosophies. Ājīvika researcher A.L.Basham also mentioned in his book "History and Doctrines of the Ajivikas" that Ajivika is not a part of Hinduism. He mentioned that Ajivika and Hinduism as different religions.
Please provide proper reference to include Hinduism tag to this page.  -- Maverick (talk) 13:23, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Read "History and Doctrines of the Ajivikas, a Vanished Indian Religion" on Page 170 it writes that ajivika served Narayana, anyways, Jatila, Ajivika, or Carvaka are similar to each other, regarded as school of Hinduism. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:51, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The religions of Ajivika, Charvaka, Buddhism and Jainism are not considered as part of Hinduism. They might share some common religious figures, like Islam and Christianity share Adam, Abraham etc. but that does not make those religions as a part of one another. --Rahul (talk) 16:48, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No one talked about Buddhism or Jainism. It is already proven that "charvaka" are hindu, one of the traditional school. Don't need further explanation. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:06, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: "Avijika those who serve Narayana. This remarkable passage was noted by Kern, who inferred from it that the Ajivikas were orthodox Vaisnava ascetics. His view was supported by Buler. The passage was studied by Hoernle, who commented on it fully. Bhattopala states that the Ekadandines or Ajivikas were devotees of Narayana, that is Vishnu." From History and Doctrines of the Ajivikas, a Vanished Indian Religion, page 170. The book is linked above already. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:49, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The given book does not say that ajivika were followers of Hinduism. --Rahul (talk) 17:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Vaisnava are hindus. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:00, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It is irrelevant whether Vaisnava are hindus or not. This article is about Ajivika not Vaisnava. --Rahul (talk) 18:05, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess we are done. Read the source, that is given above. It is clear that number of scholars agree that they are indeed Vaisnava, i.e Hindu. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:10, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

text: The term "Hinduism" did not come into use to mean a religion (popular Hinduism as we know today) until about 19th century. The term Hindu as used in India, as well as outside implied an ethnicity until 19th century. It is a misuse of the term to use it for the period in question. In the time of Makkhali Goshal, the word Hindu was totally unknown in India. Note Ajivikas have been extinct for along time. Note that Jains also worship Rama and Hanumana as moksha-gami, and use the term Narayana, the heritage is not exclusive to a specific religious group. Malaiya (talk) 22:58, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Malaiya, first use of "Hindu", dates back to 6th Century BCE. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly, you haven't read what I had written.Malaiya (talk) 02:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Rahul, can you explain how the source is misrepresented? When it says that "Avijika those who serve Narayana. This remarkable passage was noted by Kern, who inferred from it that the Ajivikas were orthodox Vaisnava ascetics. His view was supported by Buler. The passage was studied by Hoernle, who commented on it fully. Bhattopala states that the Ekadandines or Ajivikas were devotees of Narayana, that is Vishnu." Bladesmulti (talk) 14:50, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Don't know what you are talking there. But Rudolf Hoernlé was well learned. So were Buler, Kern. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:44, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a copy of Basham's "History and Doctrines of the Ajivikas" on my shelf. I have had it for about 25 years. It is heavy reading, it was Basham's 1950 PhD dissertation. I have read it. Incidentally Romila Thapar was Basham's student.Malaiya (talk) 19:26, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Basham makes it clear that Bhattotpal, the 10th cent commentator of Varahamihira, "confused them with Vaishnavites". He explains that the confusion arose because "ekadandin was a word which embraced a large class of mendicants".Malaiya (talk) 00:02, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

text: @Bladesmulti, Only because Vinayaka worship, Murugan(Arugan) worship, Swasthika, etc are common between Ajivika, Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism(Vaitheeka), doesn't mean that Ajivika, Jainism, Buddhism are part of Hinduism(Vaitheeka). You are referencing the work "History and Doctrines of the Ajivikas, a Vanished Indian Religion" written by A.L.Basham and published in 1951. But, he also wrote another(new) book in 1971 named 'Ajivikism: a vanished Indian religion(Bulletin of the Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture (Calcutta))'. Many of the views and concepts, which u are referencing in his old book, are changed in his new book. I suggest u read that book and give references. -- Maverick (talk) 00:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Editors continue to insert comments about the orthodox "Hindu" nature of Carvaka, which is clearly not supported by the sources. Carvaka is a materialist, atheist stance that is no more "Hindu" than Buddhism, Ajivikism or Jainism are/were. Ogress smash! 21:31, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ajivika - Part of Hinduism? 

message: Ajivika is common (for example, 1). The WP:MOS states, "The use of diacritics (such as accent marks) for foreign words depends on whether they appear in verifiable reliable sources in English and on the constraints imposed by specialized Wikipedia guidelines". An occasional mention of Sanskrit scripts (or Japanese, Chinese, other languages) is fine, and useful, in wikipedia. The WP:INDICSCRIPTS discussion was about the excessive use of various Indian language scripts in the lead. It did not ban Sanskrit script from wikipedia, in cases where the word/concept/name has Sanskrit roots. If it did, I will appreciate a page link. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:27, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree that "Ajivika" is common. The reference you provided is in korean. One of the most authoritative books on Ajivika is A L Bassam. It uses Ājīvika. Can you point out some reliable sources in English which uses "Ajivika"? --Rahul (talk) 20:36, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If we want to move the page, then start a ref to move it. Otherwise, all I did was take a minority of words and match their spelling to every other appearance of Ājīvika in the text. Don't yell at me, I'm just standardising the page, which was like 80% Ājīvika, 20% Ajivika, and has the official title Ājīvika. Ogress smash! 20:53, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Rahul: 1 (first column), 2, 3, etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:58, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to run a name change, do so, but please don't undue my edits that standardise the page for WP:POINT. Ogress smash! 23:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:POINT refers to "a policy or guideline is being applied". Can you link me to the policy or guideline page you are applying? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Please paste a link to the page that shows the "consensus is Ājīvika" should always be used, and "Ajivika should never be used" in this page. The consensus guideline, BTW, does not mean we can violate the core content policies of wikipedia: no OR, NPOV, verifiability in RS, and so on. Perhaps, once you paste the page link, I will appreciate your concern. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ajivika, Ājīvika, and INDICSCRIPTS 

message: No, it definitely did not ban Indic scripts. This is totally separate from the WP:INDICSCRIPTS thing and is limited to devanagari. I'm not hacking away Tamil, Punjabi, Nepali, Hindi, Urdu (yeah, yeah, not Indic but close enough) or Oriya/Odia or Bengali. This is strictly a classical languages of India thing.
Why? Despite common understanding, devanagari is not a "Sanskrit script" - it's a common North Indian script that people started using for many languages (primarily spoken) because it was easy to learn and write compared to many other scripts. The appearance of Sanskrit and Pali in Devanagari is a 19th century phenomenon that matches the development of IAST for Sanskrit in roman letters. It's an Indological tool of the 19th century, not an authentic ancient script associated with Sanskrit or Pali, and it was aimed at Indic language speakers trying to learn Sanskrit. Basically, while very useful for students of classical languages such as Sanskrit and the Prakrits, and especially for literacy movements for Indic speakers, it is not actually a very old script. It first appears in dribs and drabs in the 10th century. It's also got lossless romanisation systems in the form of IAST/NLK romanisations.
If we are quoting a text, like the Lanman's reader, we'd use their Devanagari, because 19th century Indologists as well as modern (Northern) Hindu and Mahayana Buddhist publishers often use it for very sensible reasons. But it's not historic, and there's no need to add it to phonological discussions or the like because IAST and/or its daughter NLK transliterate every letter. It's duplicating what is at least a marginally legible and lossless romanisation for the sake of... well, for the sake of what? There's no reason to repeat the information in an alphabet that is unfamiliar. Pali doesn't even usually use it outside of specific Indology circles; various Pallava scripts use special letters for missing ones as they are the equivalent of IAST for the languages of Theravada Buddhism such as the Burmese alphabet, the Thai and Lao alphabets, and the Singhalese alphabet. Pali dictionaries are usually in one of these scripts, not in Devanagari. And in South India, Hindus predominantly use Grantha scripts for Sanskrit, not Devanagari, which is a North India/Himalaya thing. Traditionally, Siddhi scripts were used in East Asia, and Tibetan uses the Tibetan alphabet's extra special letters.
So what I'm saying is that aside from special circumstances like the AUM syllable, where it's made its way into world culture, it's not in any way "genuine" or "special". It's just foreign, and it's not foreign in a way that is useful, because it's a modern invention. IAST does the job without trying to jazz up the place artificially. Ogress smash! 20:53, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Until wikipedia issues a policy ban on Devanagari-Sanskrit, it should stay. A lot of scholarly work, from 19th century Monier-Williams and Max Muller to numerous modern ones are based on manuscripts in Devanagari-Sanskrit, and it makes sense to keep it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure why it makes sense... what gain is provided by putting Sanskrit? People who can read it already know from the (obligatory) IAST/NLK how it is spelled, and people who can't just see characters they don't understand. It seems to me to be needlessly obscurantist. Half the time it just adds clutter to the page and, for example, in this article, it is being added to a discussion of the etymology of the word. There's literally zero reason to add Devanagari. That Orientalist scholars favored it to stabilise the reading and writing of sacred texts doesn't make it helpful for Wikipedia readers. By the time you can read Devanagari you don't need anyone to add extra Devanagari to pages to tell you how to spell something... Ogress smash! 23:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The gain is the link to published literature, and to manuscripts. The point of an encyclopedia is to provide information. It is not to fashion it based on what you "like" or "don't like" (WP:JDLI). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:58, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to point out I could aim "I just (do/don't) like it" at you, too. What "link to published literature, and to manuscripts"? That's why IAST and NLK exist: so experts can know what the Sanskrit name is. Transliterating the name into Roman letters doesn't break the link or Wikipedia pages would be in foreign scripts instead of romanised forms. Ogress smash! 00:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The goals of IAST, NLK and ISO transliteration standards are complicated, and wikipedia/web search engines have their limitations given the keyboard layout inconsistencies worldwide. Some inclusion of Sanskrit etymological roots or text in wikipedia articles is not only good for reasons I explain above, it is consistent with wikipedia's Accessibility initiative, multilingual aims, ease of verifiability and wiki guideline pages on non-Latin scripts. Numerous English wiki pages on Chinese, Japanese, Arabic and other language concepts/words include scripts (even though ISO transliteration standards for various languages might feel sufficient to some). See Four Noble Truths, for example, it has a translation box with scripts. This reads, "Articles on the English Wikipedia may contain words or texts written in different languages and scripts". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: @Ms Sarah Welch, Ogress has taken pains to explain why Devanagari is not suitable here, how it is a 19th century script etc. Your adding Devanagari script is not serving any purpose other than making Ajivika "closer" to North Indian Hindi-speaking people. But if you look at the religion historically it is in South India that both Ajivika and Jainism had managed to take root, and it was in non-Devanagari scripts like Brahmi and later Kannada script that literatures (esp. of Jainism) of these religions were written. So your insistence on including Devanagari transliteration here does not make any sense. -Mohanbhan (talk) 01:18, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Indic scripts

message: Dont Remove without reading the materials 90.243.105.206 (talk) 06:55, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Remove Tamil related information of Aseevaham. It is also called by many researchers like Neduncheziyan in his book on Aseevaham and K Pandiyan.