Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive 10

message: I don't exactly like the list from Attwoods book. Is this really a correct citation? I thought Attwood didn't express such stereotypes as lacking empathy and all that? It should also be clear that those characteristics are not necesarily part of every Aspie. Like for instance, the article proposes that no Aspie can read emotions and so on. --Rdos 05:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social differences section 

message: ...to indicate he was anything other than a very gifted person in every area--including social skills--from a very early age.
It's a shame that parents with neuro-atypical children need to invent myths about Albert Einstein in order to make themselves feel better.
69.228.240.61 19:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm guessing you've omitted the word "seen" between never and writing in the above, so, FYI, I know I've seen Einstein referred to many times as having unusual traits, especially during his childhood. I would think some people might not mention such things commonly though, in an effort to ignore things they dont understand, or perhaps just think is not relevant to some other point. Bearpa 21:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you Google even gently, Einstein not only had Asperger's but was also dyslexic and schizophrenic. The same diagnoses have been applied postmortem to heroes throughout the ages, from Einstein and Newton to Churchill and Leonardo. Quite frankly, they are speculations and suppositions that would never have spread without the Internet to germinate them, and while they do provide hope and meaning to sufferers they are often plain wrong. For example, The Churchill Centre bluntly refutes any claim Sir Winston was dyslexic, and any Einstein biographer will tell you that old Albie had numerous friends, many lovers, was married twice and often wrote impassioned letters to the women in his life. If these are the signs of someone who has Asperger's, then my name is Abraham Lincoln. But I do think that links to claims should stay, so that anyone with half a clue can work out for themselves the difference between hard facts and accepted but unprovable conjecture. ThwartedEfforts 17:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I have a feeling you have a prejudice to what you call "Neuro-atypical" people.  Just because a person is different you shouldn't consider it an inferiority.  Einstein had many eccentric habits, was an admitted alcoholic, and among other things nearly flunked several courses in both high school and college due to "insubordination" when he didn't agree with his teachers opinions.  He additionally failed his first Algebra course due to not realizing it was algebra, which he had learned on his own.  This is often an issue with people with Asperger's Syndrome, speaking from personal experience.  Additionally, a note is that 80% of Americans have some sort of Psychiatric disorder that would benefit from treatment at some time during their life. 71.55.62.166 02:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't understand all this bickering.  What does it matter if someone says Einstein was this way or that?  He did have many social and mental quirks that were and are atypical, as well as many strengths, but what is the point of this arguing?  Whatever the case may be, it's not right to lash out at anyone for reasons so petty as perceived offense in script written solely for referencial purposes.  Your views, my good user who has only left your ip addresses (might I add, a bit foolishly), are directed at the wrong ears:  no one here was purposely seeking to offend you.  Why do you say such things to other people as these that you've written?  Einstein won't thank you for your ridiculing these people who are merely stating what you refuse to believe as fact.  They didn't say it as an attack on Einstein.  Why do you perceive offense where there is none intended?  Stop a moment; think about what these other people are saying.  I am just now finding out that Asperger's syndrome is what I've been dealing with my whole life, but I'm grateful to these people for their consideration!  I'm so glad that they have written these things!  What they write, I take at face value, having no reason to be offended for they meant no offense.  Please, don't be so quick to pounce on someone because they say something you don't like.  Truth is truth whether we like it or not.  You can choose how to react.  Do you really think though, if I may rebuke you further for a moment, that your problems will go away by telling other people (in essence) that you hate them and they're stupid because they didn't say something exactly to your liking?  Do you also throw your dinner back at mom when it isn't just the way you like it?  What have you gained?  What have you proved?  Most of all, are you any closer at all to solving your own problems?  Think before you speak.  Your friends will love you more, and your enemies will be few.  Don’t bother with a retort.  Anything you say will only reinforce my point against you, and I'd rather spare you the embarrassment of making that mistake.  Just think about it for a while.  Don’t be angry.  Just consider what I’ve said and, rather than revile it, try to see it for its intended purpose: your betterment as a person and a hope for your happiness, and secondarily a defense for these good people who you've spoken harshly toward.Brotherbain 01:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I've never writing from Einstein, or first person accounts 

message: ::I'm getting a better picture of Aspergers. And I do mean "picture" because I am a visual thinker, which is the most important "symptom" of this syndrome. And the most important pathologizing factor is the idea that picture thinking is a lower form of intelligence, a less developed form of thinking. My favorite response to this benighted notion is something Richard Feynmann said about the efficiency of picture thinking by describing where a car part was (I'll look for the quotation).
::In other words, brilliant people are picture thinkers (my favorite being Leonardo DaVinci). The problems start when there are mis-connections between input channels (the senses, i.e., visual, auditory, etc.), or with coding input cues (e.g., choosing to trust body language over verbal or facial expression -- if your survival depends on choosing one, the former is far more trustworthy so it's the instinctive choice), or with output channels (expression including emotions, voice tone, and interests/work).
:: It's likely picture thinkers learn language (which includes the mother tongue, as well as other languages such as mathematics, music, art, etiquette, fashion, even styles of humor, and religious-belief systems) systematically, as they learn everything about their world. To make sense of a chaotic sensory-overloaded world, some people need to focus on one system at a time, effectively shutting down or delimiting input and output channels. 
::One hypothesis for a cause of AS is underconnectivity between the right and left cerebral hemispheres. This makes sense when you understand that different input is processed in different brain regions. But the underconnectivity theory is not inclusive enough to explain every case. Mis-connects between channels could easily occur not just broadly between hemispheres (cf., Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain), but between any area of the brain that processes information for a particular sensory input.
::If a processing area is injured or damaged by any one of a number of means, including physically, genetically, hormonally, metabolically, the extent of damage, its location, and whether it was direct (say homocysteine poisoning of the central nervous system) or indirect (an effect of homocyteine poisioning on a developing brain in utero, for example) causes variability in expression. When people can't shut out some channels of input, or shut down the 'wrong' channels, or can't communicate in appropriate channels of output, or confuse channels, they become anxious, ADD, OCD, depressed, etc. -- all symptoms of the endocannabinoid system. 
::An imbalance originating in the cannabinoid system can conversely cause Aspergers characteristics because of the way neurocircuitry works -- thoughts create neurocircuitry. It can be a chicken-or-the-egg problem, making it a very slippery condition to diagnose and treat -- and very dangerous to make generalizations about.
::Some AS parents will need help parenting, depending on variable symptoms, and completely independent of an AS diagnosis. Overlap between bad parenting and some Aspergers behavior is coincidental. Just as some people like Feynmann can understand Physics and others cannot, some people can consider the needs of their children and others cannnot.--Renice 18:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A better picture 

message: check this articles: 
*http://psy.ucsd.edu/~lshenk/sciam.pdf
*http://psy.ucsd.edu/~lshenk/mirrorneuronpaper.pdf
it looks like mirror neurons activity can be observed with cheap and simple EEG, the "mu" waves are silent when "normal" person open and closes his hand and when he watch other person doing that, but the autistic person react in this way only when s/he performs the action himself, it looks like it is a very simple procedure available all over the world, an my question is - is that phenomenon has a diagnostic value or only statistical, can this procedure help in diagnosis of AS together with psychological inquiry ? pwjb 17:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out -- it is fascinating research that should some how be included. --Renice 16:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but I would note that this research does appear to be preliminary and may neither be universal nor exclusive.  It is still noteworthy and worth taking into consideration for addition IMO 71.55.62.166 02:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I seriously doubt that such a procedure would be of any diagnostic use, at least not without a lot more research behind it. There are all sorts of studies implicating mirror neurons as the basis for all sorts of things, but most of them only demonstrate correlation, like the study you mentioned--the results may support whatever (sometimes quite ambitious) conclusions the researchers came up with, but not by a long shot prove them correct. One example of criticism of mirror neuron research is at http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:QVzh9PGGRA8J:www.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/ld/Philos/borg/If%2520mirror%2520neurons%2520are%2520the%2520answer_JoCS.rtf (Google html version). I'd say that as the investigations relating mirror neurons and AS are (at least the ones above) serious scientific endeavors, including the current status of research in this article should be seriously considered, as long as it included the "this research is very preliminary" clause. 66.73.166.19 01:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  can it be diagnosed with EEG ? 

message: I'm not sure where to put this, so I'm putting it here and would appreciate any necessary edits.  To start, I have aspergers.  I do not think it good to downplay the challenges of having aspergers in a NT society, but many people with Aspergers are far more successful than the article tends to indicate.  I think the problem is that the Aspies with problems stand out more and tend to get diagnosed more.  That does not mean that there are not many of us, like myself and many I know, who have been very succesful, both financially and romantically.  Though there are many areas in which NT thinking is adaptively superior, there are also many areas in which Aspie thinking is adaptively superior.  The trick to being a successful aspie is to specialize in things that aspies are better at.  And there are many.  So I think it would be valuable to change the tone of the article, pointing out that though Aspergers can be a handicap, it is not necessarily the case. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.218.83.83 (talk • contribs).
:Are you CeilingCrash? Per WP:NPOV and WP:V, the purpose of this or any Wikipedia article is to reflect current knowledge on this subject, not to make its readers feel good. Besides, I think the article does a fine job of addressing the "positive aspects" of AS. Your viewpoint is one among many, and I think the article does a great job of addressing it. szyslak (t, c) 06:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Traits for success in aspergers

message: What's up with the Spock reference in this section; is that necessary/encyclopedic?  Actually, the line that contains it seems like a somewhat fanciful revision of, or extrapolation from, DSM-IV criteria.  I think it's imperative upon Wikipedians to resist the "look at me I have Asperger's!" internet meme, and report only what can be found in medical literature.  It's the new "I have ADD".72.83.243.12 03:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Spock reference is only there to put it into context, I see nothing wrong with that.  And of course it seems like it's from the DSM-IV, that's because it is.  Look at the cite used at the beginning of that list.  --James Duggan 07:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characteristics 

message: Deleted this:
During adolescence and young adulthood, the person with AS should guard keenly against peer pressure. At this stage of life this pressure can be quite heavy and often takes the form of pressure to drink heavily with others, or engage in other licentious behaviour such as drug abuse. Care should also be taken against being drawn into non-mainstream religious groups such as Scientology, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons who are liable to do spiritual damage; and against being taken in by scams, or non-mainstream political groups, particularly extreme leftist ones.
'nuff said. Malangthon 22:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: section on Social Impact

message: It seems this article needs some updating. Asperger syndrome is now recognized by a consensus of experts as a common disorder with an incidence of 1 out of 150. In addition, Dr. Lim at Yale has collected impressive evidence of the genes that cause it. At the University of Pittsburgh and at Carnegie Mellon University they have found compelling evidence that the processing disorder is caused by a decreased amount of white matter (not gray) in the brain which affects associational neurons. This was done by functional MRI on a large number of patients and is pretty much irrefutable. This is no longer a "disease du jour" and people in education and particularly in medicine need to know this.
Drlareau 15:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: updating article

message: Graham 87 made the revert to delete:
*"Asperger's Syndrome is the new ADD, which was the new bipolar disorder, which was the new hypoglycemia, which was the new neurosis, which was the new hysteria, which was the new imbalance of bodily humors, which was the new possession by demons, which was the new cursed by witches, etc., etc. Being a big boring dork does not automatically mean you have AS!"
The deleted text was inappropriate as Graham87 states but the controversy is very real as it has been for ADD (aka ADHD, aka MBD, aka hyperkinesia, aka hyperkinetic syndrome aka . . .), and homosexuality and alcoholism and epilepsy and (add your own here) and the myriad other maladies of the serious social stigma type. "Disease of the Month" is a good source for those who want to see the chaos and confusion of the name game and a good research of the literature. Anyone here have access to a good med library? Check out the issues on Attention Deficit Disorder and see what I mean. The point, if not the wording, is important in an article like this. Malangthon 23:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While it is the "disease de jour" as you put it, everything about that statement was wrong, from the placing, to the wording, to the lack of reference.  I hadn't realized it before, but your right in that this article doesn't properly talk about how it's become the diagnosis du jour and the prevelance of self-diagnoses.  When I get time, I will search out some stuff that we could use as citation.  --James Duggan 20:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: overdiagnosis and disease de jour

message: I want to make a contribution to the article on Asperger's Syndrome.  I lack the technical expertise to do that appropriately, but I've been told on the Help Desk to just go ahead and post my text and some kind Wikipedian might come along and finish the job for me.  So, here goes...
This is an ADDITION to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_syndrome#Non-clinical_perspective>.
EXISTING LANGUAGE: Some professionals contend that, far from being a disease, AS is simply the pathologizing of neurodiversity that should be celebrated, understood and accommodated instead of treated or cured.[60]
TO BE ADDED: Others relate AS to the concept of personality originated by psychiatrist Carl Jung [reference?] and extended by Myers and Briggs [reference?].  MacKenzie identified ISTJ as the most likely type to exhibit autistic-like behaviors. [see citation below]  Duke pointed out similarities between the I and J preferences and ASD, but specifically excluded the whole type ISTJ [see citation below], while Chester asserted that, "In terms of function pairs, NT is more likely than ST to be seen as having Asperger's Disorder,"  He also said, "For whole types,  I_TPs appear to be at a greater risk of being diagnosed with Asperger's Disorder than any other type, especially as children." [see citation below]
Note:  The three new citations are all available from the Center for Applications of Psychological Type <www.capt.org>.
~ ~ ~
Chester, R. G. (2006, December).  Asperger's syndrome and psychological type.  Journal of Psychological Type, 66(12), 114-137.
Duke, L. R. (2005).  Autism and learning styles: An assessment of children with high-functioning autism and Asperger's syndrome using the Murphy-Meisgeier Type Indicator for Children-Revised. A thesis submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Master of Arts in the graduate school of the Texas Woman's University, College of Arts and Sciences, Denton, TX.
MacKenzie, E. H. (2004, July).  Using type to understand the autistic experience.  Paper presented at APT-XV, the Fifteenth Biennial International Conference of the Association for Psychological Type, Toronto, ON.
R.G.C.
(Note: I am the author of the first paper cited above.)
4.242.162.201 18:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have tried to add the material as outlined above. You can see the changes I made by clicking here. If the additions are not what you had in mind, please make a note about what is incorrect. To the other editors of the article: I am not familiar with this article, so I apologize if certain aspects of this edit (such as reference method/formatting) do not match with this article's conventions.--GregRM 18:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, the first line "The techniques described above will work for most people with AS but the syndrome cannot be completely cured" can be reworded to something about the treatments helping us to cope better in an NT society.  With the second line, "AS can be modified and coping strategies can be put in place", you're right in that it can't be modified, and the coping can be mentioned in the first line.  Maybe combining both sentences it into "The techniques described above will not cure AS, but help those diagnosed with AS better cope (function?) in society", or something along those lines.  --James Duggan 05:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur.  I like the suggestion and support that change. Alex Jackl 06:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: An addition to the Asperger's Syndrome article

message: Solution.
:--Renice 21:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aspergers and synchronization 

message: The following text was added to the article - I've placed it here and added a  template:
The neutrality of this section is disputed. Please see the discussion page. This section may contain claims that are based on ancedotes which are unrepresentative, "research" conducted by people who are not scientists or clinicians, and personal accounts from highly biased points of view. ASpar and FAAS are organizations that do not represent autistic people, and have a poor reputation within some aspie communities. ASpar and FAAS also do not represent the perspective of aspie and non-aspie members of happy, successful families that have aspie parents. This article appears to be almost completely lacking in input from the perspective of aspie parents or the aspie community.
If changes can be discussed here, that'd be good. Disputes should always be discussed at the talk page. Graham87 03:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need to work on those sections.  Clearly people did not want them removed but it is not encyclopedic. Alex Jackl 05:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment added to article 

message: I think we might even want to take those sections out of the article until we can come to agreement on them on the talk page.  I think the two sections should exist they just need to be seriously re-written from NPOV.   I can't do it right now but the author of those sections clearly has a POV about Aspies as spouses and parents that is inconsistant with many people's views.  The POV needs to be toned down without losing the value that IS there.  Maybe I will take a cut at it over the weekend.  Alex Jackl 08:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need to work on those sections.  Clearly people did not want them removed but it is not encyclopedic. Alex Jackl 05:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank you for adding that 

message: WWallacee rewrote the opening paragraph, using the world "illness."  Please see the discussion we had here relating to that paragraph, and introduce major changes in discussion first.  Thanx. CeilingCrash 16:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting opening paragraph 

message: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 3#Category:People with autistic spectrum disorders -- Can "People on the autistic spectrum" be an acceptable name for this category? Currently only three people have commented; the discussion needs more voices. — coelacan — 23:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the heads up on that.  I have put in my two cents.  (If it's a penny for your thoughts, yet people put in their two cents worth, someone, somewhere, must be making a profit :p).  --James Duggan 05:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposed category renaming 

message: The "hyperlexic" reference seems to refer more to hypergraphia. Fredsmith2 18:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyperlexia 

message: This paragraph does not satisfy Wikipedia's policies for attribution as it provides no reliable sources
----
:AS and marriage/ relationships
: (text removed, see history)
----
In footnote #98, the claim to an eighty percent divorce rate cited here 
:http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=868
redirects us to unreferenced "Dutch research":
:"Dutch research suggests that the divorce rate for people with Asperger syndrome is around 80 per cent."
There is no journal or author cited.  Incidentally, I could not find it after searching myself.
The implication of predisposition to domestic violence in footnote #100 refers to an article on a website posted by Sheila Jennings Linehan, who is an attorney without subject matter credentials, makes no reference to clinical data, and is posting to a website that is without professional editorial oversight.  
:http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=364&a=8122 
This leaves us only some annoying book reading which doesn't seem terribly informative (and refers to an entire book without a page number.)
I am going to remove this paragraph in accordance with Wikipedia's policy,
"Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material immediately if it's about a living person, and do not move it to the talk page.[2] This applies to any material related to living persons ..."  While this rule falls under the category of Biographies, I interpret the phrase "any material related to living persons" to apply in this case, as this is "any material" and the "people with Asperger syndrome" are very much alive.
Let's watch our sources to maintain the historical high quality of this article.
CeilingCrash 04:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do *shudders*. AS may have been a late starter in the English speaking world, but it has made up for that, there is PLENTY of formal, medical and academic research, and no excuse for using anything else. It's late, and I admit I am in a foul mood, but I am honestly tempted to revert the whole thing back to what it was just after FAR. --Zeraeph 05:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I am also in agreement with CeilingCrash and Zeraeph.  Remove it all and let God sort it out. :-)  Alex Jackl 14:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  eighty percent divorce rate is not sourced