Talk:Bisbee Deportation

message: I just created this page.  More to come later.  There is a great wealth of info at http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/bisbee/index.html.malatesta 21:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some books with good coverage of the deportation, at least from the IWW perspective are Rebel Voices, edited boy J Kornbbluh and History of the Labor Movement in the US Vol. 4 - The Industrial Workers of the World by Phillip S. Foner.  I was planning on expanding the information here within the next few weeks so I look forward to working on this with you.Joseph_Lapp 23:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I am in possession of a photo of, and a cartoon about the Bisbee Deportation, which come from the Walter P. Reuther Library, and i have obtained emailed permission to use same on Wikipedia. I am currently exploring licensing issues, with a view to clearing title to meet Wikipedia's preferences/requirements. Richard Myers (talk) 03:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos for the article 

message: What this entry really needs is proper citations. Most of the notes cite entire books and lack any page references. Page numbers would help anyone trying to work with this entry. - Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 03:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Three years later and the refs are still improper. Carrite (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't fix them? I see people complaining, but no one contributing. - Tim1965 (talk) 13:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: This section mischaracterizes the holding in US v. Wheeler by eliminating the "private infringement" aspect:
The Justice Department appealed, but in United States v. Wheeler, 254 U.S. 281 (1920), Chief Justice Edward Douglass White ruled for an 8-to-1 majority that no federal law protected freedom of movement. Protecting citizens' right to movement was a state function, White argued, and could be enforced solely in state court.[2][3][4][5][18]
White's whole point was that there was no federal cause of action against infringement by private actors of a possible right of movement.  I think White would take great exception to the current mis-characterization of his opinion here.  
The "private actor" aspect can be easily added to this sentence to make it correct:
Chief Justice Edward Douglass White ruled for an 8-to-1 majority that no federal law protected freedom of movement from infringement by private actors.
Truthfully reporting facts, including the proper and accurate characterization of U.S. Supreme Court precedents, is part of what wikipedia is about, isn't it?  I spent an hour last night reading US v. White and the case that confined it to its facts (but did not overrule it, contrary to wiki), US. v. Guest, and it seems quite clear that the PRIVATE ACTOR portion of the infringement was what the SCOTUS opinion was based on.  Back then, if some private party prevented you from moving, there was a tortious act; that meant State, not federal law.  If you disagree, let's talk about it.  But otherwise, the edit should be incorporated.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sullyicious (talk • contribs) 01:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *It's not about what you or I think, or how we read the case.  Find a citation that more correctly interprets the case, change the text, and add the cite. - Tim1965 (talk) 13:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: *Again, I'm all for it!  Find the cites, change the text, we're there! - Tim1965 (talk) 23:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mischaracterization of the Holding in US v. Wheeler 

message: Article states:
"The train stopped 10 miles (16 km) east of Douglas to take on water, some of which was provided to the deportees on the packed cars. Two machine guns guarded the train from nearby hilltops, while another 200 armed men patrolled the tracks. The train continued to Columbus, New Mexico (about 175 miles (282 km) away), arriving at about 9:30 p.m. The train slowly traveled another 20 miles (32 km) to Hermanas, not stopping until 3:00 a.m."
Hermanas is not to be found on Google Maps, possibly because there is nothing there now but some corrals, the railroad tracks long ago having been disassembled and carted away. State highway maps show Hermanas, and a signpost for Hermanas still stands at the southern end of the road named Hermanas Grade at the intersection with NM Highway 9.
Having visited all these towns myself, it seems to me that coming from Douglas, you go through Hermanas en route to Columbus. To go to Columbus then Hermanas would be back-tracking. Unless somebody else fixes this first, I will check cited sources and try to make sense of it.
Megapod (talk) 13:54, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Train Trip Towns Seem Out Of Order 

message: What part of the following did you not relate to Institutional racism?
:Discrimination against Mexican American workers by European-American supervisors was routine and extensive.
That quote is from the article...
::The quote says "workers" not miners", and it says "in the region" but doesn't say whether racism was practiced at Bisbee. There is nothing in the article to say that there were any Mexican American miners working at the Phelps Dodge mine at Bisbee. Given the extreme racism in the region at the time, I suspect that miners were not integrated; that is, Mexican American miners did not work alongside white miners. Some mines might be all-Mexican American; others were whites-only. It's possible that non-mining, grunt-work jobs (such as hauling water, hauling timber, handling mine waste, etc.) were handled by Mexican Americans while whites worked the mines.  But we'd need a citation that says this.  Then we'd need a citation that says these workers were unionized, and struck in support of the miners, and that they, too, were included in the deportation. So, as you can see, there'd be some citations needed before we could say with certainty that there was a racist element to the event. - Tim1965 (talk) 16:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What I see is a violation of WP:CITE. Wikipedia requires us to not rely on our own feelings, ideologies, thoughts, or assumptions, but rather to rely solely on what published, unbiased sources say.  None of the sources say "Mexicans" or "Mexican Americans" were among those rounded up. If you can find a source that says that, by all means add the information to the text and use an inline citation to support the sentence. Relying on an inference about regional conditions, or the half-assed claims of the employer or sheriff (who would have said anything to justify their illegal actions), or by claiming that later events colored prior events, is not following the guidelines of WP:CITE. I don't have to show you where you are wrong; I merely have to show you that there is no evidence (yet) which says Mexicans or Mexican Americans were rounded up as part of the Bisbee deportation. Find that evidence in a published, unbiased source.  Follow Wikipedia's rules. - Tim1965 (talk) 16:02, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Racial discrimination was a factor

message: Having checked digital versions of Jensen and Dubofsky, neither mention a miner killing a deputy only to be killed himself thereafter. I'm unable to find digital versions for Foner and Byrkit, but given the other 2 citations were cited falsely in this instance, I'm left suspicious of their validity in reference to this suggested shootout as well. If somebody has a physical copy of either book and is capable of checking to confirm, it would be much appreciated. Alternatively, if anyone is capable of finding another source confirming this shootout, that would be appreciated as well. UncleBourbon (talk) 12:17, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Killed Deputy/Miner