Talk:List of people from Croatia/Archive 1

message: I see that the user from 67.x.y.z has been having a field day with this page. While I can appreciate enthusiasm, some of the edits are on a very slippery slope.
For example:
* Marco Polo is alleged to have been born on the Croatian island of Korčula, to a Slavic family called Polić natively but changed to de Polo in order to naturalize to the Venetian government (Dalmatia was mostly ruled by Venice those days), and later moved to Venice themselves. The de Polo's still live in Korčula today (my mother happens to be from there so I know for sure), and there's a house that's a small tourist attraction because it's "the birthplace of Marco Polo", but whether the explorer himself was (or the extent of his heritage) from this family is not so certain AFAIK.
* Joseph Haydn was from Burgenland (Gradišće), a province in easternmost Austria today that's known to be inhabited by many Croats (gradišćanski Hrvati), and many of his compositions are recorded by him as coming from folk songs. There are families in Croatia called Hajdinjak and similar, so many speculate that Haydns were originally Croats from Burgenland, but again, this is not at all certain.
* Rudjer Josip Boscovich was from Dubrovnik, and he was definitely a famous citizen of a Croatian city, but it's pretty stretched to outright declare him Croat. See the long discussion on that talk page.
:: Serbian --Igor
* Emile Zola is speculated to be Croat by some French scientist apparently amicable towards the Croats in general, based on some Croatian-sounding terms used in his literature? Very stretched to say the least.
* Nikola Tesla was from Croatia but was from a Serb family (probably originally Vlachs due to the last name), not Croat.
:: You are embarrassing yourself as usual, Tesla is not a Vlach surname, it is a plowing tool, Slavic word. See town of Teslić as well. --Igor
I think I also saw several Croatian Jews listed -- the extent of their naturalization should probably be verified before declaring them Croats.
Also there's Slavoljub Eduard Penkala, who was not ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Croat. Conversely, Ivo Andrić was ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Serb. I suppose listing both kinds is the best compromise, but I'm not sure if that's the consensus.
So, anyway, my point is: tread lightly. --Shallot 17:46, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Doubts

message: As with above information, the arguments for the theory that Marco Polo was a Croatian are very controversial and are pseudohistorical. As typed above under Doubts, the allegation is such that those purporting its authenticity claim Marco Polo was born on the Croatian island of Korčula, to a Slavic family called Polić natively but changed to de Polo in order to naturalize to the Venetian government. Because there is a house (tourist attraction) dubbed the "birthplace of Marco Polo" and the fact that there is a de Polo family living on Korčula is neither here nor there. It does not equate to substantial or significant evidence that Marco Polo actually of Slavic extraction. The theory is also put forward with unfounded claims that because there is a de Polo family in Argentina who speak Croatian, suddenly this is irrefutable evidence that someone who lived as far back as the 13th century could be somehow connected to these Croatian migrants in Argentina (see discussion on Marco Polo's wiki entry for further details and evidence inThe "Polo" surname). 
Marco Polo should not be added here in the entry of famous Croatian explorers. The integrity of Wikipedia is under scrutiny in such cases where pseudohistorical and poorly argued points are presented as fact. 
Paullus 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Marco Polo

message: It occurs to me that a better title for the page would be list of Croatians, because that doesn't imply ethnic nationalism, rather a link with the country, which may or may not be combined with ethnicity. And to avoid any claims of misappropriation, ethnic classification and/or name of political entity that controlled the place a person was from can be added next to each name. --Shallot 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: Eh, that anonymous user went through the whole page like a tornado again... among other questionable things, Pope Sixtus V Croatian?? I googled and found some site from Herceg Novi saying he was the son of a Serb... brrr, this looks like another Pandora's box. --Shallot 00:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The page about the Bokelji adds a somewhat explanatory twist on this story. --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: Leopold Mandić is from Croatia. His grandparents are Croats from Zakučac. Often the Serbs (and Montenegrins) have this confusion, because of surname Mandić that appear also among Montenegrins in Herceg-Novi area (eventually Leopold Mandić is born in there). See Sveti Leopold Mandić u svetištu Zakučac na Cetini,  Sv. Leopold Mandić, "ljudima prijatelj, Poljički sin Leopold Mandić, Vatikanska niša čeka našeg sveca, Blagoslov novouređene kapelice u Zakučcu. Or, if you want it this way, look the Croatian phonebook and you'll find surname Mandić among Croats from that area. Kubura 15:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Doubts

message: Found another odd case: Rick Rossovich, an actor from California, had a great-great-grandfather who lived in Mošćenička Draga (on the coast in the Istria county). His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina, but the aforementioned place is not. --Shallot 22:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Quot"His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina". I suppose you mean http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0001685/bio ? This is a complete nonsense, added by some propagandist. There are no Rosović Serbs in "Krajina", and one can very well see this by typing this surname into search window of Cro phonebooks, http://www.htnet.hr/imenik/fset.html . Well, type Rosović, and you'll find 12 persons, all Croats (according to first names-one of them Hrvoje/Croat) in and around Mošćenićka Draga. Judging from clumsy syntax and pathetic effort to inform the public that "Krajina" (written as "Kranija") is not to be confused with Croatia or anything Croatian- it's pretty obvious that Serbian agitprop had been nosing around. I've seen Rossovich IMDB bio and there was no "Krajina" part. Then I've written in Wiki he was of Croatian ancestry. And, lo and behold- magically, "Krajina" ad appears on the Rossovich bio page. Coincidence. Yeah, in some parallel universe.Mir Harven 23:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I had a bad feeling about it given the geographical inconsistency and bad spelling. How perverse. Thank you, I've just submitted the correction to the IMDb staff. --Shallot 02:14, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rick Rossovich actually is Croat, but one of his ancestors was a Serb from Krajina. But this is such a small portion that he can not be considered a Serb. If you were to sum it up he is 6.25% (1/16th) Serb.
Rick Rossovich Unofficial Homepage http://www.rickrossovich.de with a Bio of German and many Photos.
IMDb again says: "Is of Serbian/Italian descent, Moscenicka Draga is home of his paternal great-great grandfather. Maternal ancestry is Italian.". So, umm... --Joy [shallot] 23:53, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rick Rossovich

message: ChrisO, thanks for extending the introduction, though I doubt that it will help much with handling the abuse of those who consider the mere notion of association with a word involving the letters "C"/"H" and "R" is something abhorrent, and there certainly seem to be enough of those to go around... --Shallot 14:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What did I tell you... --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks from Shallot

message: It seems that the Surname, Name format has proven to be rather hard to maintain. We could get rid of all those pipe links and keep the page consistent easier. --Shallot 18:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Surname, Name format

message: IF YOU WANT TO SAY THAT MARADONA IS CROATIAN THEN YOU ARE WRONG-SAY LIKE THIS GREAT GRAND GRAND MOTHER OF MARADONA CALLED XY WAS CROATIAN.
IF YOU WANT TO ADD MARADONA CHANGE THE NAME List of Croatians TO List of People Somehow connected to Croatia!
Avala 12:49, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone other than the anonymous user is saying that. They are way overzealous and need to be corrected. If they insist on reverting the page, they will get banned... --Shallot 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Maradona

message: http://users.tyenet.com/kozlich/baroque.htm
http://www.amb-croatie.fr/culture/renaissance_croatie.htm
More to come. Mir Harven 17:48, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think I removed this... I traced that person's pseudonym that has an article already, and moved the page accordingly, but it needs work. --Shallot 17:54, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Ivan Duknovic

message: How is it better to write that Pavelic was politician when he was ustasha leader?
Adolf Hitler was not funny little man even if somebody think so.
: Regardless, they were essentially politicians. We may think that their kind of politics/policies were abhorrent, but that doesn't make the fact that they were politicians any less true or less pertinent. --Shallot 16:42, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And all this is perfectly well described in his article and those that are linked from that article. (If not -- go ahead and add it to those pages.) This is merely a list of people, we can't include pictures and whatnot, it would become extremely cluttered if we started doing that. --Shallot 16:42, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  It is better? 

message: * Lujo Tončić-Sorinj
: --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 13:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the List? and Croatian? 

message: ... include historical prominent individuals into the article? --HolyRomanEmperor 23:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not... 

message: I think that it is un necessary to have so many people listed. We a section for "Builders" and half of it is with red links that most people have never heard of. A lot of sections are not very desirable. I think we should just leave the list to the most influential successful people and cut out the rest to shorten it. It will also keep people reading the page. Anybody agree?
JJstroker 05:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposition to shorten article... 

message: It is written that Josip Broz is a person of Yugoslav nationality. However, on many occasions he claimed to be a Croat. For instance during his visit in Bregana on the 5th of July 1971. he said to general secretary of the Central Committee of the League of Communists of Croatia at the time (Savka Dabčević-Kučar): "You think that I do not have any national feelings. You think that I do not consider myself to be a Croat, that I left our country as young proletarian, that the proletarian internationalism had superseded any national feeling from me. I am an internationalist, because we are the communists and we must be internationalists. However, I am also a Croat." (D. Bilandžić, Hrvatska moderna povijest, Golden marketing, Zagreb, 1999., p. 601.) Therefore, I believe that it should not be written that Josip Broz is a person of Yugoslav nationality. Brunislav 19:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality of Josip Broz 

message: I read and heard that he was half Native-American and that he had a Yugoslavian uncle that played pro-football.
Where did you hear that his mother was from Mostar?
And also I suggest that the late picks that u've added be on another page, below the NHL players that have actually played in the NHL be a link to another page with NHL picks of Croatian descent.
Gervais is a french-canadian name, what makes u think he is of Croatian descent.
For Gervais, see my answer on your page. There's a small group of Croats with surname Gervais. That's why I put him on the list as a person of possible Croat origin. Kubura 09:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NHL, John Kordic and late picks  

message: Fucking hell. This was moved from List of Croatians to List of Croats without explanation on Talk by this anonymous edit which is also an improper move (losing page history). Of all the lame ass crap I've seen, the kind which hurts the most is the one ignored for months... --Joy [shallot] 22:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rename?! 

message: Let's have a poll - should we maintain a list of Croats (only ethnic Croats) or a list of Croatians (both ethnic Croats and other people from Croatia)? Or both? Or none?! --Joy [shallot] 22:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  poll: list of Croats or list of Croatians? 

message: Yes, these soldiers of the Croatian army were war criminals
1. Rahim Ademi
2. Janko Bobetko
3. Ante Gotovina
4. Mirko Norac
Their only personal military 'achievements' were killed children and elderlies, raped women, and looted and burned homes of the Serbs. That's why they are in the Hague (Ademi, Gotovina)or already in jail (Norac). Bobetko died and that way escaped the Hague.
It is shameful to put them on the list along with the Serbs Andric and Tesla!
No, those people are only accused for crimes. You will have to wait until proces begins. --Ante Perkovic 00:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Croatian war criminals 

message: Reading fom this page that
* Mario Andretti - race car driver (ethnic Italian)
and then reading from Mario Andretti I learned that
Mario Andretti was born in the town of Motovun (1940) in then Italian Istria. He was born with a twin brother, Aldo Andretti. After World War II Istria (which is part of Croatia) passed to Yugoslavia and his family, like many other Italian Istrians, fled in 1948 and spent the next seven years in a displaced persons camp.
So, being born as Italian, lived in Yugoslavia for just three years (1945-8), he became Croatian! Just imagine what unseen glory shines upon Mario - after seven years spent in a displaced persons camp, and finally becoming a Croatian!
There was a lot of discussion proving undeniably that Marco Polo was a Croat Marko Pilic or Polic. 
The Pilic theory claims:  POLO-PILIC, MARCO Croatian Adventurer
The Marco Polo Coat of Arms includes four chickens. In Italian, Polo means chicken or fowl; in Croatian Pilich means chicks or chickens. Accident or coincidence? The Arms are registered in Dalmatia.
Then came a bad mouth and a shameless Italian who spoiled the joy of this scientific discovery: 
"Finellach" <krunoslav.raki...@hi.htnet.hr> ha scritto nel messaggio news:cm8n4b$hsd$1@ls219.htnet.hr...
> Geos wrote: > > Tell me, my friend, is this the "theory", you are talking about? > > http://www.ikorcula.net/marcopolo/Pilic_Polo_Marko.htm > Yes.
Well, the first think is that chicken in italian is pollo and not "polo". Polo is a Venitian word for "Paul". This simple evidence breaks one of the bases of your theory.''
Yeah, we have still the Polic theory available ...
Following this Pilic-Polic theory, I myself discovered that:
* Michelangelo - born as Mihovil Angjelic - Ludvik, italienized his name and added Buonarroti
* Charlie Chaplin - born as Karlo Čapljinac, actor, film director and producer (Winner of 1 Oscar Award)
Also, I am all for Croatian Joe Magarac - due to the fact that magarac means jackass in the contemporary Croatian. It means the same in the contemporary Serbian language - but my patriotic Croatian feelings tell me that the Croats are more jackasses than the Serbs.
At the end, the claim given at the beginning of this list The bottom section also includes some corner cases:
* people born in parts of Illyria/Illyricum before the Great migrations''
gives me an excellent idea to include the Krapina man (see Neanderthal) as the oldest ever known Croat. The only dilemma I have is - where to place him within this list of famous Croatians - Military or Science? Maybe - under both these subsections.
Those who are in favor of one or other section - please, sign below and write the section name you are for!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:4.249.3.240
:: I'm for both sections - therefore Krapina man is the first Croatian general and the first inventor (invented a spiked club used by Croatian Ustashi to smash people's heads)
Anyone visiting this talk page can now profit from an added bonus. The above is an example of a slightly modified version of straw man sock puppet - They often act in an unintelligent or uninformed manner, and may behave in an overtly bigoted manner. The effect is often to obfuscate the debate and prevent a serious discussion of the arguments from each side. User 4.249.xxx.xxx is nothing more than another pathetic attempt at wasting everybody's time by Serbian nationalistic crap pusher and retarded puppet master user:Purger a.k.a. user:Medule. 83.131.68.72 08:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  P R O P O S A L 

message: These changes need partial rev. We shouldn't censor parts related to alledged war crimes, nor add Albanians to the list. Ante.
Partial rev? Which part is done wrong? I disagree with reverting. Kubura 07:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kubura's changes 

message: There's no more space to add names here!!!!!!!!
we need another page somewhere where we can add all the names, PEOPLE WITH CROATIAN ANCESTRY, PEOPLE BORN ON THE TERRITORY OF PRESENT-DAY CROATIA, ETC, EVERYONE THAT HAS ANY KIND OF CONNEXION WITH CROATIA!!!
:Croatian diaspora is where people who aren't actually Croatians go Mad Jack 17:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We need sources on every X-American page. Mad Jack 20:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NO MORE PLACE TO ADD NAMES? WE NEED ANOTHER LIST WITH EVERYONE INCLUDED 

message: Is Sarah of Croat origin? Blašković? If she is, why is she removed from the list? Kubura 08:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sarah Blasko

message: On the list of Croatians there are two people Nikola Tesla and Mirko Norac. There is no need to tell who was Nikola Tesla. Mirko Norac is a war criminal sentenced to the 13 year term and jailed. During the secession war, he was a commanding officer in the Gospic county area where is the Tesla's birthplace - village of Smiljan. This infamous soldier, the Tudjman's general, is trained as a waiter (this is the only 'military' knowledge and education he posess) and all his military achievements were raped women, killed elderlies and children, looted properties and burned homes. 
Accrording to the Jutarnji list - a Croatian daily newspaper, Croatia decided to honor great inventor and scientist - Nikola Tesla, the Serb. Nothing wrong, but
- it shall be known that Ustase (1941) turned to ashes the Serbian orthodox church (where Nikola's father, reverend Milutin served as a priest) and the home where Nikola was born, killed a great number of villagers and destroyed the tombstones/memorials of Nikola's parents (father Milutin and mother Djuka)
- in the same town of Gospic in the year of 1993, the monument erected to honor this great man was blown up to pieces and the town square named after Tesla was renamed - which reads in Croatian below:
http://www.jutarnji.hr/nedjeljni_jutarnji/clanak/art-2006,7,8,memorijalni_kompleks,34822.jl
Taj je kip bio postavljen na sredisnjem gradskom trgu, koji je tada nosio ime Nikole Tesle, a u međuvremenu je preimenovan u Trg Stjepana Radića. No, u siječnju 1992. Krsinićev je spomenik miniran velikom količinom eksploziva tako da se razletio u komadiće
Nevertheless, Nikola's home was 'restored' - the original building was made of wood, the new one - all brick and concrete. A brook who was running nearby was diverted to run closely to this new house. The house belongs to the Serbian orthodox church and was looted during the secession war (1991-95) by Croatian police under pretext of saving and protecting Nikola's parents belongings. Of course, all this 'honor' of 'restauration' of Nikola's birthplace was just an ocassion for many Croatian nationalists to polish their images as civilised and educated people. Not a single representative of the Serbian orthodox church or living Tesla's relative (William Terbo, Nikola's grand nephew - for example) is consulted or invited as a guest.
The Gospic town mayor Milan Kolić, who was mayor in the time of blowing up the monument and renaming the Tesla's Square into Stjepan Radic Square says:
- Ovim centrom se grad Gospić, naselje Smiljan i cijela Hrvatska zele oduziti svom slavnom sugrađaninu Nikoli Tesli - rekao je Milan Kolić, gradonačelnik Gospića koji je na čelu grada bio i tijekom Domovinskog rata.
which reads: "By this center (the Tesla's 'restored' home and the Serbian orthodox church rebulid) town Gospic and entire Croatia wants to pay tribute to their famous fellow citizen Nikola Tesla"
The whole article is written in a highly politically correct manner - not a single word that Tesla was not actually a Croat - rather a Serb. Not a single word of apology (coming form Croatians 'dignitaries') for destruction of everything that holds any memory to this great man - Nikola Tesla.
But, as to the new Croatian hero, Mirko Norac - he is still a member of so-called Alka Cavaliers Society (Vitesko alkarsko drustvo) which runs every year a medieval type contest celebrating some victory over Turks some time in the 16th century -in the Croatian town of Sinj.
Learning that, the diplomats acredited in the Croatian capital city of Zagreb - sent message to Croatia - we would not again attend the contest if Norac, a war criminal, is a member of the Alka Cavaliers Society.
http://www.jutarnji.hr/dogadjaji_dana/clanak/art-2006,7,15,sinjska_alka,36003.jl
Diplomati u RH zbog Norca će i ove godine bojkotirati Alku
Iz diplomatskog kora, međutim, stizu vrlo jasni signali kako će veleposlanici, po svemu sudeći, i ove godine bojkotirati Alku, i to zbog činjenice da je Mirko Norac jos uvijek član VAD-a, premda je osuđen za ratne zločine.
:We don't give a damn about consuls and embassadors and all foreign diplomats. You think that we are helding Alka for them? We, Croats, are holding our traditional knight's game for us. Who cares for the rest of the world. Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These decisions of Croatian tribunal are very doubtful. They are forcefully brought, under pressure from outside the country. That was almost a blackmail. And the whitnesses there were very doubtful. Those whitnesses should be the suspects. What do you expect, when your enemy is a whitness of the prosecutors? Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Croatia wasn't in a secession war. Yugoslavia has dissoluted. But that was a Serbian expansionist war. Croatia defended its independence and existence. Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Some victory over Turks? "Some"? Well, die, if you can't live with the fact that Croats had a big victory over Ottomans, which Serbia never had. Kubura 10:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Villains vs. noble men 

message: The article says that Serbian patriarch Pavle is of Croatian ancestry. I know that majority of Croatian users here would like the whole Solar system to be of Croatian ancestry, but this is way too much! --Djordje D. Bozovic 11:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ha? 

message: Man, this entire article should be redone (I mean it!)!!!!!  There are way too many (ethnic Serb) brackets in this list!  Listen you croats, if the person is an ethnic Serb, don’t even bother adding him/her because they are not one of yours.  Also, I can’t believe someone had enough guts to add MARCO POLO or HAYDN on this list.  This just goes to show how desperate you people are.  Who’s next? Man, I wouldn’t be surprised if Kofi Annan or Abraham Lincoln were listed as croatians!  GIVE ME (AND THE REST OF A WORLD) A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!
: Oh, shut the f*** up. Every possible idiot is turning this page into a phone book and now we even have an idiot who doesn't understand that. How do you know the nationalities of the preople who made a joke out of this page? Are you a mind reader? --Ante Perkovic 14:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see this was your first edit so far! I bet you are the one who made all this mess in the first place! --Ante Perkovic 14:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE