Talk:Hugo Chávez/Archive 5

message: The English-language Hugo Chávez article is currently subject to a FAC. You can vote and place comments here. Please express yourself freely about how this article stands in terms of comprehensiveness, POV issues, structure, chronology, adherence to FA standards, style, layout, et cetera. Saravask 02:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  
New '''[[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hugo Chávez|Featured Article Candidacy (FAC)]]''' in progress
 

message: The article says the 1999 Constitutional Assembly was a move "to bypass [...] opposition". Actually, the appointment of a Constitutional Assembly was a main point in Chavez's 1998 electoral campaign and in fact, when taking his oath in January 1999 he called the 1961 Constitution "esta constitución moribunda" (this dying constitution). JRSP 15:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that his interest in constitutional reform (a new constitution) began before 1999. In fact, it began even before his 1992 coup. However, in the passage you quoted, "opposition" should be taken as the puntofijismo system and the political parties that benefited from it. Chavez saw the new constitution as a means to bypass opposition in 1992, in 1998 (as part of his campaign pledges), AND in 1999. Therefore, there is no contradiction or inaccuracy in the article. Readers will find this clear when they look at the Constitution of Venezuela article, which I refurbished a few days ago, where I provided (with sources) the same rationale. Saravask 16:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  1999 Constitution 

message: Why are the Talk Archives not linked ? Ericd 21:28, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They are linked. Look above and you will see the numbers "01", "02", etc. Those are the archives, and they are labelled as such. Regards, Saravask 22:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why are the Talk Archives not linked ?

message: latest change doesn't make sense. What does this as a sentence by itself mean: The Carter Center endorsed 1998 presidential election on December 6, 1998 with 56.2% of the vote. The is something amiss there.
:That change was made by 128.135.221.186. I undid that change, and also removed the words "considerable" and "renowned". Saravask 20:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What does this mean?

message: :Chávez has also overseen widespread state-supported experimentation in participatory economics
While Chavez's economics may be "participatory"; they are not participatory economics, a phrase invented by Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel to discuss a particular economic system involving balanced job complexes (not in Venezuela), iteration facilitation boards (not in Venezuela), renumeration for sacrifice (not in Venezuela), etc.  Venezuela may indeed be the closest the world has ever seen to participatory economics, but there's no evidence that they were widely influenced by Albert and Hahnel's ideas; indeed, reading Albert's thoughts after his recent trip there, it's clear there's a big gulf between his thinking and the Bolivarian Revolution.  DanKeshet 23:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the language to exclude mention of parecon, until I can find sources linking Chavez to this system. Now, the statement reads "citizen- and worker-managed governance ...". I have sources for this, and am putting them in now. Regards, Saravask 01:15, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "participatory economics" 

message: I'm still not sure about having the TOC on the left of the "early life" section. It comes across as making both the TOC and the first section look very unprofessional and aesthetically unpleasing, what with how the TOC interacts with the bar and header of "early life", and that the bottom of the infobox comes down to touch the section on the right just doubles the problems. I think we need to overcome our horror vacui, bite the bullet, and just let a little white space appear next to the TOC. Contrary to what you may think, doing so could actually make the article more appealing and readable, by giving it room to breathe and setting the distinction between the opening paras and the beginning of the in-depth article text much more clearly. Consider it, at least.
Also, a question: why all the superscript? I've never seen a Wikipedia article that uses 21st century instead of just 21st century. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) doesn't use it. -Silence 18:15, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Er ... unless there is a hard and fast rule against superscripting suffixes, I'd like to keep them, since that is how people are accustomed to seeing them in handwriting and printed texts. After all, if superscripting is unacceptable, then why was it implemented in MediaWiki? In addition, the guideline for floating the TOC is that it should not be floated if the TOC's width is greater than twice the width of the Wikipedia navigation bar (which can be seen to the left). If the TOC is less than twice that width, then it is OK to float. I can furnish the quote if needed. Saravask 06:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on that argument, I demand that we make all of the text in this article fuchsia-colored, because having fuchsia-colored text is not clearly and specifically banned anywhere in the Wikipedia guidelines. Who cares if 99% of articles aren't fuchsia-colored, and if it in no way improves readability and is distracting and silly? It's not banned by a hard and fast rule, so make the change!!! -Silence 14:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Every time I read this strange comment, I just about fall out of my seat laughing, even though I disagree. I guess you've made your point well. I just unfloated the TOC and removed the superscript. Cheers. Saravask 12:23, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Stylistic concerns

message: Current version: "A paratrooper of humble origins, Chávez founded the Movement for the Fifth Republic (MVR) in 1994 after his pardoning for the 1992 coup d'état."
Previous version: "Born into a poor family and having earned a distinguished military service record, Chávez's formal political career began when he founded the MVR in 1994, immediately after being pardoned for an abortive 1992 coup d'état."
I think there's some significant problems with both versions. Why doesn't it say anywhere else that he was a paratrooper? The current one doesn't make it clear that the first five words are trying to establish his early life very quickly, while the previous one is oddly-phrased with "Born into a poor family and having...", as the two don't really go together, and in any case don't link to the next statement. Maybe something like "Born into a poor family, Chávez rose quickly through the military ranks. His formal political career began when he founded the MVR in 1994, immediately after being pardoned for a failed 1992 coup d'état." -Silence 19:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer humble origins instead of poor family. Why? I think it should all be viewed and compared relative to local realities. A middle class person in one country could be rich in another, if measured by the actual things he owns and has access to. Whereas a relatively poor person in a well developped country could be middle class in a poor country. But humble origins is a more universal concept: yes, they were not rich, but they had enough to get by with a normal life (however relative that might be). As to being a paratrooper, I do not think it is that relevant; he was from the army and that should be enough; what he was assigned to, when a amid-level commander, should not matter that much (tank, artillery, engineer corps, etc.) ... but yes, it doesn't hurt having it in the article. --Anagnorisis 04:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Chavez and his family were not exactly starving or neglected, given that he went to school, got college scholarships, had a White girlfriend (Herma Marksman), etc. And Chavez has extremely wealthy ancestors (for example, Maisanta, who was a wealthy landowner who owned a vast plantation (although it was confiscated before Chavez was born). Saravask 05:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. "Humble origins" is highly unencyclopedic: it's too coy, too politically correct, too vague. "Humble" is a judgment call, and a positive statement; "poor" (or "impoverished" or some other synonym, if you prefer) is not a judgment call, and is a neutral statement. And "poor" does not mean "lower class" or "middle class" or "below average", it means "Having little or no wealth and few or no possessions." Thus it is a universal term, not a relative one (it's not an exact term, certainly, but it's vastly more exact and understandable than "humble"). Humble in your context means "Low in rank, quality, or station; unpretentious or lowly"; if we said "low in rank", "unpretentious", or "lowly" instead of "humble", would it be acceptable? If not, then let's find a better word. We also certainly need a better word than "origins", which suggests a long lineage of "humble" people (contradicting your claims about his ancestry) and is, again, far too coy and vague, when simply saying that he was born into a lower-class family would do fine. -Silence 05:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, we disagree then. Because the same arguments you use, I think support the other view. Poor is also a judgment call -unless you want to use some economics definition, and if you do it then Chavez family was not poor. In any case, I would not consider the way Chavez grew up, to be the considered poor even when making a judgment call -certainly not in Venezuela. --Anagnorisis 16:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, I agree. Chavez's background and situation are so confused that we shouldn't mention "poor" at all. Saravask 00:07, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A paratrooper of humble origins?

message: The foreign policy section could be updated with what is now happening with Mexico. After a week with diplomats exchanging calls trying to difuse the situation created by Chavez calling Fox, Mexico's president, a "puppy of capitalism," Chavez again disrespected Fox yesterday in his Alo Presidente program saying among other things that "Fox was bleeding from his injuries." Today Mexico has demanded an apology by midnight or it will recall ambassadors (first step towards breaking diplomatic relations). This is gonna be a tough one. Way to go Hugo. Show how smart you are insulting them all. --Anagnorisis 16:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vicente Fox news 

message: "When asked in an October 2005 BBC interview if he would move to use the 40 month sentence if a media figure insulted him, he remarked that I don't care if they [the private media] call me names ... After all, if the dogs are barking, it is because we are working."
Could a linked source for this BBC quote be supplied. --Oldak Quill 01:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ...if the dogs are barking ...  so easy to find a source for that. He has said that a few times. Not sure about that specific instance. Here are a few:  and  here is one from a government website:  And here is one in English . I suggest using something called google. It can work wonders when looking for this type of things (I just used it). --Anagnorisis 02:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I just put in an inline citation and footnote linking to the interview's transcript posted on the vcrisis site. I actually first heard it from a posted clip at the BBC site itself ( several weeks ago), but it seems they have taken down the full audio version since then. Saravask 02:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Additional note: I first inserted that quote when I heard the BBC interview itself. I wrote down the quote verbatim (as it was spoken by the English-language translator). The written transcript may vary slightly in wording, but the sense and meaning is exactly as is stated in the article. Saravask 03:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for source 

message: User Silence has pointed out many "nonstandard" features in this article, and has suggested that these must be done away with. I respecfully disagree. Rather than taking this as a point of shame, I see this as *good*. This article has a nonstandard presidential box, a nonstandard presentation of domestic polity, a "nonstandard" left-floated TOC, et cetera. I am absolutely rejoiceful that all Wikipedia article are not forced into the same dull mode, and that expressivity and tolerated. This *is* a onstandard subject itself. Nonstandard election results boxes highlight the nine elections Chavez and allies have won. The nonstandard presidential box adapts cleanly to Chavez's lack of a wife and other circumstances that the grey "standard" box would have foisted upon the page (and would have thus appeared partially empty). Again, "nonstandard" is good, and is particularly appropriate for nonstandard subjects and politicians such as the one this article deals with.
Comments struck. See apologies below ...
: Well, nonstandard is not automatically good -as suggested above). If it were, then standards would not exist ever. Standards make life easy for all. People get used to standards, facilitates things and make users feel comfortable with them. However this does not mean they cannot be changed when the old standard can be improved to adjust it to a new reality that the standard didn't initially cover. And .... what am I saying? Forget all this. I am starting to sound like a preacher. Cheers. --Anagnorisis 21:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's one of the most sensible comments I've seen in a while, Anagnorisis. :) Don't be so shy about voicing your opinion. (Of course, I say this because you've agreed with me on many points above: I'm a clever, crafty devil. :D) But anyway, I'd say that whether a certain feature is "nonstandard" or not is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. A certain trait's value should be judged only by whether or not it does its job as effectively as possible, causing the most helpfulness and the least unhelpfulness. For example, one argument against the floated TOC and superscript was that people would be surprised and confused and off-put by those (debatably) jarringly unusual style choices, but if some nonstandard feature was used that didn't have those effects, that argument would be completely invalid against it. How common something is is not, in itself, a note either for or against it, even if commonality is often associated with other elements that are significant. If I sounded in my above arguments like I was advocating just blindly obeying every common style choice on Wikipedia, I apologize; if I saw a definite benefit to using superscript or floating the TOC, I would not have argued against them. I also (probably) won't argue against them in the future, if you ever feel like returning those features to the article; we've both gotten our arguments for and against it out now, so whichever way we go, at least we'll be making an informed decision. -Silence 21:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on "nonstandard" and "different"

message: This guy is an asshole. He wants to shit on everything. The fact that he is where he is is a testament to how stupid some people can be and how just standing on a large amount of oil can give you great influence on the global economy. God help us.
::I understand. If you feel though, that the article is itself pro-Chavez POV, then please suggest ways in which it can be corrected. User:Anagnorisis has already determined to do this (rightly). Um, I think we should otherwise keep our own opinions of Chavez private and present good arguments about how to improve the article here only. Thanks a lot. Saravask 19:40, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Castro-lite 

message: I've edited all the templates now to have a small space around them, so that text doesn't just run into the templates, but leaves a nice, reasonable little area around the box. I have some questions and suggestions, now:
*1. Why are the 1998 election and 1999 referendum both contained in Template:ChavezElections1998? Wouldn't it make more sense to move the 1999 referendum to its own template, move the 1998 one up to the "rise to power" section, and put the newly-made referendum template in the place where the 1998 one currently is? Not only would that make a slightly overlarge template much easier to handle, but it would also put the information in the actual places where people would expect it to be and want it.
**Yes. You're correct. There's no good reason. All the election boxes were once combined into one hideously large table/temaplate. It took a good deal of time for me to split it up into three. I was just to lazy to complete the job and separate the 1998 and 1999 templates from each other. If you need help spliting them, just ask. No problem. Saravask 22:39, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *K, I'll do it later tonight. Just checking to make sure there wasn't a reason for it being that way. -Silence 22:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: **Actually, I went ahead and split it, and moved the two new boxes to the correct positions. Saravask 23:28, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

text: *Actually, I can't seem to figure out how to center it. Could you tell me how, or do it yourself, whichever you prefer? -Silence 22:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

text: * Perfecto. -Silence 22:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Templates 

message: # I am not sure about the intention of the last quote at the bottom of the article; the one about Jesus. I would simply take it out.
::Uh...given that nearly all biogrphies of politicians (such as Yoweri Museveni, Tony Blair, and George Bush comment on the subject's religion, I think it needs to stay in. This quote captures the motivation behind why Chavez uses the word "Christ" and "true Christianity" in many of his speeches and talk show programs. It also explains why he refers to the Bolivarian Missions as the "Missions of Christ". It is insightful and helps explains Chavez's views on Christianity and his own spirituality. Saravask 01:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Automatic numbering. If references are aither removed or inserted, the numbering becomes screwed up, and thus needs to be corrected/realigned periodically. Saravask 01:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will try to do this. Saravask 01:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: All the facts in the "Bolivarian Missions" sections are empirically documented and duly referenced. If you have some equally well-referenced facts showing bad economic and social performance under Chavez, I'd be more than happy to see them put in as well. Thanks. Saravask 01:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New comments

message: The article received FA status. I want to congratulate Saravask for his great job in the past few weeks dealing with both sides (the not so neutral pro and anti-Chavez contributors), and for keeping his cool with all while balancing the article. --Anagnorisis 04:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Equal praise should go to Anagnorisis for all his input and superior knowledge about Chavez. Saravask 05:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Good job!