Talk:Egyptians/Archive 2

message: ^Can whoever posted this verify that this particular man was an Egyptian? It seems to contradict the widely held view that Fayum mummy portraits represented greek inhabitants of Egypt, and not the Egyptians themselves. 
Fayum portraits represent mostly Greek inhabitants of EgyptEncyclopædia Britannica Online - Egyptian art and architecture - Greco-Roman EgyptEncyclopædia Britannica Online - Fayyum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits Taharqa 04:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Already discussed. The Fayum mummies were all studied by Berry & Berry and  Irish and found to be of Egyptians. — Zerida 04:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Is this article about race, inhabitants, or those who are considered Egyptians? Greek/Roman inhabitants had a huge influence on Egypt. And it's only natural to assume that many intermixed, but doesn't make them any less Egyptian. I don't understand the problem? This image seems to fairly represent an Egyptian to me, perhaps not representative of all Egyptians, but an Egyptian. - Jeeny Talk 04:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Graeco-Roman influence on Egypt is undeniable but I should mention that the articles on the Fayum portraits were actually recently changed by a single-purpose account , and some of the sources have been misrepresented to give the impression that the region was merely a Greek colony (I will correct this when I have the time).  — Zerida 05:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: She already told you what the sources are, please stop acting like a disrutpive troll. Don't forget that this can get you blocked. Ask for a third opinion if that's what you want. Egyegy 05:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Incorrect as usual, I'm afraid. Irish (2006) studied the Hawara mummies of the Fayum region, as did Berry, Berry and Ucko (which is cited in the article). This is where the portraits come from. — Zerida 05:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taharqa, but even the source you posted says "mostly" Greek. Not all Greek. So, it does not mean that the image is not that of an Egyptian man, even with your source. Plus the link that Zerida posted about the new user account inserting that information in the article, has me suspicious also. - Jeeny Talk 05:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Please stop being disruptive, be civil and assume good faith. Egyegy 20:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Will removing the words "Egyptian man" from the image caption, while leaving the rest of the caption as it is, satisfy your concerns? I have no problem with that, yet I can't speak for the others though. - Jeeny Talk 21:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ^Yes! This is all that I was concerned about in this case Jeeny, please give me that compromise as I feel that no one is trying to hear me and aren't even addressing the issue, when this is my only concern as you can tell from my edits in the article's 'history'....Taharqa 22:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I understand, but why not remove this one instance in this particular caption, as a compromise? It will comply with either source, and the collage stay the same, as it will not compromise the article, IMO. - Jeeny Talk 23:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Taharqa, your tone is not friendly, and it makes others defensive. You too are engaging in personal accusations yourself. Let the info box images stay, but only the words "Egyptian man" from that one image caption be removed. No pictures removed from the collage, OK? What say you, Zerida? How's that? - Jeeny Talk 23:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just removed the words "Egyptian man" as that does not compromise the sources. I look at the image and see an Eqyptian, so I do not need to have it in the caption to know that. If it helps everyone all the way around, that's a small compromise. - Jeeny Talk 23:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, under normal circumstances, I might have agreed that this was a compromise and would not have contested it. Here, it doesn't really seem like a compromise, but conceding to what he wants if he is disruptive enough. A compromise suggests meeting half way, so perhaps adding a more specific description; like for example, a "Roman Egyptian mummy" would be a compromise.  I am not, however, willing to support a solution that would encourage his type of behavior. He needs to respect Wikietiquette as it applies to the rest of us. — Zerida 18:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Taharqa, please stop throwing accusations around. You say you do not want to fight, but your language suggests otherwise. You are complaining that Zerida is "simply out to be spiteful...". And you've used such words as "harassing" to another editor. It seems you think people are against YOU and are only doing things to annoy you. I do not believe that is the case here at all. These editors are here to improve the article, as I believe as are you. But, again, the language and tone you use here on the talk page puts others on the defensive, therefore, your arguments can and will be dismissed,. Thus, reinforcing your belief they are "just out to harass" or out to be "spiteful" etc. Don't you see that? Your tone on this page, comes off as unreasonable so any of your proposals can be construed as the same. Do not name call, or use such strong accusations as "harassing" and "spiteful". Please take it easy. Present your argument, concisely, and without judgment of the person but the content and provide more than one source. You may get better results. Just a suggestion. Also, the one source is not a justification for your agruement as there are many to support the others. And your one source says "mostly Greek" and that to me says, that it is very possible that that portrait was of an "Egyptian man", not just my speculation, even though that's how I presented here earlier. Try to find more reliable sources to fit your position. Peace. - Jeeny Talk 18:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jeeny, I should fill you in on some background information. The editors on this and other Egypt articles have had problems with many different sockpuppets by one person vandalizing them and forcing these types of racial POVs . They all have the same exact editing pattern and tone as "Taharqa". One of these sockpuppets even tried to get the whole page deleted , which was treated as an act of vandalism and disruption. "Taharqa" made reverts today on other articles using the same IP range as that vandal. I just wanted to fill you in on this background information so you can see the whole picture of what's happening. Egyegy 18:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yikes. I don't know what to say or do, now. Thanks for filling me in. I hate this type of stuff. Sheesh. - Jeeny Talk 19:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh sure, hit me with philosophy. lol. But, I am not adding to the article with my "invalid" reasoning. It is valid for me, and that's the truf. I may not have the reliable source to back up my reason on hand to contribute to the article, though. <in jest> Oh, and don't give me anymore links, I click on them and feel compelled to edit and then I'm all over the place.</in jest> but true You just used a weasel word by using the word weasel. :p- Jeeny Talk 21:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I know. But, the man could have been Jewish. Why should this particular man not be considered Egyptian, from your source? Surely there were Egyptians buried in this manner and with the portrait paintings. Do you deny that? Look at his hair! What is the real message you're trying to give here? - Jeeny Talk 23:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egyptian Man? 

message: I appreciate the attempt to resolve a dispute by posting a plea on Wikipedia:Third opinion but the third opinion mechanism is intended for disputes involving only two editors. I see four editors here. All of them are attempting to make good-faith improvements to the article, so I encourage you to assume good faith at all times, and refrain from personal attacks. If you can't come to an agreement about the point, I suggest going the RFC or mediation route. -Amatulic 17:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Third opinion

message: I thought Arabs were the sons of Abram / Ibrahim from the Arabian peninsula? Egypt was an major empire before the time Ibrahim even entered into the lands known as Canaan.
Surely the majority of Egyptians are not of this anchestory?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 18:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is not Arab short for Abram? 

message: Professor Manu Ampim  has indicated that there is evidence to support that the statue of Ra Hotep with is wife is a fraud.  Here is the page link.  Nuwaubian Hotep 09:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ra Hotep 

message: here's a source I googled on what this article should be discussing
* Gershoni, I., The Evolution of National Culture in Modern Egypt: Intellectual Formation and Social Diffusion, 1892-1945,  Poetics Today, Vol. 13, No. 2 (Summer, 1992), pp. 325-350
Zerida, your "preference for indigenous Egyptian (and otherwise) history" is most welcome, at any article in the Ancient Egypt category. You are wasting your and my time and nerves by insisting on doing the right thing at the wrong place. dab (𒁳) 07:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if you are trying to be slow on purpose or this is just the way you are. Native or indigenous Egyptian does NOT mean only ancient Egyptian, that's the point that keeps going over your head. Anyone with an ability to read and without an obvious agenda hiding behind "cleanup" nonsense can see that more than half of this article is not about ancient Egyptians. But what else does someone who treats wikipedia like their playground care about anyway. Obviously not objectivity or accuracy. That's what;s really pathetic. And stop dumping that stuff you made up to the lead again. You revert caused vandalism to go back to another section. Egyegy (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, what? I am not being "slow", I rather happen to see through the agendas pursued here due to my long experience with ethnic nationalist pov pushing on Wikipedia. This is just another typical case of antiquity frenzy. Please try to keep apart the WP:SS point about pruning the (in itself perfectly valid) discussion of ancient Egypt, and the actual on topic discussion of modern Egyptian national identity. Your statement "You revert caused vandalism to go back to another section" isn't even grammatical. May I ask you to use grammatical English if you want to interact with me, I am in no mood to second-guess how exactly you are trying to weasle your way out of this. --dab (𒁳) 11:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created a new section on "Identity". I take for granted that the "History" section should be pruned, and we can now address content that is actually on topic. You seem to want to discuss the "Arabist" vs. "Pharaonist" question. You seem to claim that this is something I have "made up". I have not. I have rather imported this from elsewhere on Wikipedia (Egypt, Pharaonism). I admit that you are perfectly entitled to question this. If you had any interest in bona fide debate, you would do this by using  and similar, or presenting suggestions for rephrasing. I could respect a dispute that went forward along these lines. I cannot respect stubborn revert warring, and I will not honour such uncollaborative behaviour with further prose. You want to be involved in this? Then sit down and try to collaborate in fixing the issues involved. You will note that my discussion of Egyptian national identity is directly based on the 1992 article I cited. If you disagree, you are perfectly free to come up with a different source and juxtapose it to what I have been discussing. Egyptian national identity is a very complex and intersting topic, and it deserves better than to be buried beneath a ton of coatracking about Ancient Egypt as has been the case in this article. Please do contribute in a balanced discussion of Egyptian national identity, but do so honestly and based on scholarly sources, not by revert-warring and disruption.  dab (𒁳) 11:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

text: "I rather happen to see through the agendas pursued here due to my long experience with ethnic nationalist pov pushing on Wikipedia." Oh please you mean the "fringe" stuff that makes you feel good about yourself? I guess you know better than the historian, archaelogists, and egyptologists. No thank you, just because you are extremely obsessed with nationalist stuff doesn't mean the article has to suffer because of it. You're trying to make it about the only things you know how to deal with so you can justify disrupting it. This isn't your nationalist sandbox. It's just straight facts, history, culture, you know the things that actually matter (not to you obviously). Egyegy (talk) 16:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ahem, if you continue to refuse playing by the rules, blanking referenced content and maintenance tags, I will look for admin action. I have been willing to compromise and leave the offtopic material standing, waiting for you to present any sort of justification on your part. This article suffers because you refuse to observe WP:DR and WP:OWN. Unlike you, I am not defending a fixed revision, I am looking for ways to fix it without insisting on a pre-conceived version I want to defend no matter what. You, otoh, are just stubbornly refusing to recognize there even are issues. This is not a symmetrical "dispute". I will see to it proper behaviour is enforced here by admin action if you continue to refuse collaboration. If I, as an admin, saw behaviour such as yours on any article witout being myself involved, I would warn and block you for disruption immediately, and I am confident others will see the case similarly. dab (𒁳) 16:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't even contribute to the article without making it look like a complete mess. You STILL put back the vandalism I told you about and your edits are all sloppy. We're not here to keep cleaning up after you. The identity sections is mentioned. That's it. And please spare me the "I'm an admin" stuff, it's not intimidating me. You have no authority on article content. You threatening you to abuse your adminship like you did any times before is really what needs to be dealt with. Egyegy (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll be happy to clean up the article if you stop reverting my edits. At present, the cleanup tags are there to respect your opposition to the pruning of the offtopic material. If you cannot accept even that I cannot help you. If you have a problem with the references, use . If you have a problem with scope use . Just stop the disruptive reverts to the untagged " la la la, I can't hear you" version. So "all my edits are sloppy"? THen how about this] mediculously referenced discussion of the core topic of this article (as opposed to the irrelevant History of Ancient Egypt material). Sloppy? Offtopic? I have no authority on article content. I am not objecting to being in a dispute. I am objecting to your misconduct in failing to respect there is a dispute. You are guilty of WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Content disputes are one thing. Disruptive removal of tags and disruptive blanking of referenced, on-topic content is another. That's disruption quite apart of any valid objections you may have in terms of content, even if you consistently fail to state them. dab (𒁳) 17:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article doesn't need "cleaning up", that's clear as day. Find something constructive to do with your time on wikipedia. Egyegy (talk) 17:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: it does. Your refusal to even read what I am saying nonwithstanding. Your only option is to recognize there is a dispute, and respect WP:DR. If you are unwilling to do that, you can either walk away, or keep trolling until you are blocked. You cannot sit this out. You can count on me pursuing this for a year, or three years, until a satisfactory solution is found. There is no deadline. This is constructive work in my book, I am here to clean up national mysticist bias from ethnic group articles. This one is a bad case, and it will stay on my watchlist. You are welcome to be part of the solution of the problem, but you cannot prevent the problem from being solved. As a minimal (minimal!) courtesy, keep your edits regarding the "identity" section separate from those regarding the pruning of the "History" section.  dab (𒁳) 17:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to recognize that if you want any of your changes to stick, you need to discuss them first and get consensus. This "I'm an admin, I can do whatever I want without respecting any rules" attitude will get you nowhere. I've see you do this on the race of ancient Egypt article too which got you in trouble. And for the record you can pursue this for as long as you want, I can guarantee that I can pursue it for as long . Egyegy (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, Dbachmann, as Egyegy pointed out the only reasonable approach to any content dispute is to discuss changes on the talk page in order to reach consensus. You said, So "all my edits are sloppy"? THen how about this] mediculously referenced discussion of the core topic of this article. Two points here: 1. I would agree with the characterization of your latest edit as somewhat "sloppy" because a. it introduced a previously reverted vandalism to another section, b. it contains many typological errors, and c. much of that information is discussed in the modern history section if you had bothered to read it. 2. You consistently miss the point that this type of fluff is not the "topic of the article". It's one thing to give some brief information about it under the identity section, and also in the framework of the 19th-20th century anti-colonial movement (which is discussed in the modern history section where it's relevant), and another entirely to make the article about it. You say If you had any interest in bona fide debate; that's the point, I do not. I am not interested in having a "debate" (a WP:FORUM discussion) about this topic. Remember that this article never even broached this topic until you insisted on including an identity section here. Fine, but I have no desire to "debate" or rehash it. You are welcome to ask me questions about it on my talk page if you're genuinely interested in learning more about this subject, but the article contrary to what you said is not the place to discuss it in the main at all. A reasonably sized section about it is acceptable, *making the article about it* is not. The same applies to the article on Egypt. The only chance that this article has for any neutrality and quality is if it remains thoroughly inundated in academic scholarship on history and culture, not identity politics. You are asking that the article be turned into yet another one of the many articles on Wikipedia that are a frequent battleground for this. How ironic when you claim that your interest is to "clean up" the article from it. Let's keep brief information on that topic for neutrality purposes, but we can't have the article just be about that. — Zerida ☥ 19:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Neither is yours and your violating wikipedia's policy on canvassing to edit war for your friend. Egyegy (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dougweller is right. Assume good faith, people. Unwarranted language, accusations, and assumption of bad faith are unacceptable in the extreme. I see nobody canvassing here; all I see are a couple of editors who seem (to me) to have a sense of ownership fighting tooth and nail to avoid constructive changes they disagree with. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are wrong. Again. Read WP:canvassing. It says: "messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and are generally considered disruptive." This has been nothing but disruptive, which could have very easily been avoided if someone had even a little foresight or tact to have a civil discussion on the talk page before making radical changes. In the meantime why don't you tell us what is that you even understand about this discussion? Egyegy (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, Egyegy has accused me of canvassing. I'd love to see the evidence for that. He hasn't shown me sending any messages. Secondly, one message isn't canvassing as I understand the guideline (the discussion page by the way is very interesting).  Thirdly, Egyegy has just insulted Amatulic, this is not a constructive way to have a discussion.--Doug Weller (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidence was given in the link that I gave in my last post. What I'd love for you to do is show how I "insulted" anyone because I asked what their understanding of the discussion is, since they haven't actually said anything about it. Egyegy (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

text: "summary" revert? Why don't you take your own advice and stop revert warring. Egyegy (talk) 21:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It takes more than one to revert-war, and you are doing the same. You are the only one here who I see violating WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF as well. To Dbachman I would suggest posting proposed text on the talk page first. If it's contentious, that's where it should be discussed. This article is getting very close to being blocked from editing if you guys can't come to an agreement. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You show bias when you say that I'm violating WP:civil without mentioning Bach's continuous violations of this policy. This is something he was sanctioned for. All he's done is bring chaos and hostility to the article. If he really wanted to improve rather than antagonize, he should've taken this to the discussion page from the beginning without constantly attacking the editors on it. I'm not the one who is not assuming good faith. Egyegy (talk) 23:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identity 

message: When I saw the picture featuring 10 famous Egyptians, I realized that lots of more people could be added. I started a  new picture and in it I added Mohamed el-Baradei and am thinking about adding Imhotep, but I don't know if I should add el-Sadat, since his mother was Sudanese. Anyways, I will make two copies, one featuring el-Sadat, and another featuring Nasser. Can you please suggest if I could put both, or if there are any other people worth putting. For the kind of people we are looking for, please take a look at this: [French people] Hobapotter (talk) 16:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read [[WP:IMAGES}} and WP:IUP and don't forget the copyright issues (I doubt that you have, but just in case...).--Doug Weller (talk) 16:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egyptians Picture 

message: here's a source I googled on what this article should be discussing
* Gershoni, I., The Evolution of National Culture in Modern Egypt: Intellectual Formation and Social Diffusion, 1892-1945,  Poetics Today, Vol. 13, No. 2 (Summer, 1992), pp. 325-350
Zerida, your "preference for indigenous Egyptian (and otherwise) history" is most welcome, at any article in the Ancient Egypt category. You are wasting your and my time and nerves by insisting on doing the right thing at the wrong place. dab (𒁳) 07:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if you are trying to be slow on purpose or this is just the way you are. Native or indigenous Egyptian does NOT mean only ancient Egyptian, that's the point that keeps going over your head. Anyone with an ability to read and without an obvious agenda hiding behind "cleanup" nonsense can see that more than half of this article is not about ancient Egyptians. But what else does someone who treats wikipedia like their playground care about anyway. Obviously not objectivity or accuracy. That's what;s really pathetic. And stop dumping that stuff you made up to the lead again. You revert caused vandalism to go back to another section. Egyegy (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, what? I am not being "slow", I rather happen to see through the agendas pursued here due to my long experience with ethnic nationalist pov pushing on Wikipedia. This is just another typical case of antiquity frenzy. Please try to keep apart the WP:SS point about pruning the (in itself perfectly valid) discussion of ancient Egypt, and the actual on topic discussion of modern Egyptian national identity. Your statement "You revert caused vandalism to go back to another section" isn't even grammatical. May I ask you to use grammatical English if you want to interact with me, I am in no mood to second-guess how exactly you are trying to weasle your way out of this. --dab (𒁳) 11:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created a new section on "Identity". I take for granted that the "History" section should be pruned, and we can now address content that is actually on topic. You seem to want to discuss the "Arabist" vs. "Pharaonist" question. You seem to claim that this is something I have "made up". I have not. I have rather imported this from elsewhere on Wikipedia (Egypt, Pharaonism). I admit that you are perfectly entitled to question this. If you had any interest in bona fide debate, you would do this by using  and similar, or presenting suggestions for rephrasing. I could respect a dispute that went forward along these lines. I cannot respect stubborn revert warring, and I will not honour such uncollaborative behaviour with further prose. You want to be involved in this? Then sit down and try to collaborate in fixing the issues involved. You will note that my discussion of Egyptian national identity is directly based on the 1992 article I cited. If you disagree, you are perfectly free to come up with a different source and juxtapose it to what I have been discussing. Egyptian national identity is a very complex and intersting topic, and it deserves better than to be buried beneath a ton of coatracking about Ancient Egypt as has been the case in this article. Please do contribute in a balanced discussion of Egyptian national identity, but do so honestly and based on scholarly sources, not by revert-warring and disruption.  dab (𒁳) 11:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

text: "I rather happen to see through the agendas pursued here due to my long experience with ethnic nationalist pov pushing on Wikipedia." Oh please you mean the "fringe" stuff that makes you feel good about yourself? I guess you know better than the historian, archaelogists, and egyptologists. No thank you, just because you are extremely obsessed with nationalist stuff doesn't mean the article has to suffer because of it. You're trying to make it about the only things you know how to deal with so you can justify disrupting it. This isn't your nationalist sandbox. It's just straight facts, history, culture, you know the things that actually matter (not to you obviously). Egyegy (talk) 16:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ahem, if you continue to refuse playing by the rules, blanking referenced content and maintenance tags, I will look for admin action. I have been willing to compromise and leave the offtopic material standing, waiting for you to present any sort of justification on your part. This article suffers because you refuse to observe WP:DR and WP:OWN. Unlike you, I am not defending a fixed revision, I am looking for ways to fix it without insisting on a pre-conceived version I want to defend no matter what. You, otoh, are just stubbornly refusing to recognize there even are issues. This is not a symmetrical "dispute". I will see to it proper behaviour is enforced here by admin action if you continue to refuse collaboration. If I, as an admin, saw behaviour such as yours on any article witout being myself involved, I would warn and block you for disruption immediately, and I am confident others will see the case similarly. dab (𒁳) 16:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't even contribute to the article without making it look like a complete mess. You STILL put back the vandalism I told you about and your edits are all sloppy. We're not here to keep cleaning up after you. The identity sections is mentioned. That's it. And please spare me the "I'm an admin" stuff, it's not intimidating me. You have no authority on article content. You threatening you to abuse your adminship like you did any times before is really what needs to be dealt with. Egyegy (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll be happy to clean up the article if you stop reverting my edits. At present, the cleanup tags are there to respect your opposition to the pruning of the offtopic material. If you cannot accept even that I cannot help you. If you have a problem with the references, use . If you have a problem with scope use . Just stop the disruptive reverts to the untagged " la la la, I can't hear you" version. So "all my edits are sloppy"? THen how about this] mediculously referenced discussion of the core topic of this article (as opposed to the irrelevant History of Ancient Egypt material). Sloppy? Offtopic? I have no authority on article content. I am not objecting to being in a dispute. I am objecting to your misconduct in failing to respect there is a dispute. You are guilty of WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Content disputes are one thing. Disruptive removal of tags and disruptive blanking of referenced, on-topic content is another. That's disruption quite apart of any valid objections you may have in terms of content, even if you consistently fail to state them. dab (𒁳) 17:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article doesn't need "cleaning up", that's clear as day. Find something constructive to do with your time on wikipedia. Egyegy (talk) 17:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: it does. Your refusal to even read what I am saying nonwithstanding. Your only option is to recognize there is a dispute, and respect WP:DR. If you are unwilling to do that, you can either walk away, or keep trolling until you are blocked. You cannot sit this out. You can count on me pursuing this for a year, or three years, until a satisfactory solution is found. There is no deadline. This is constructive work in my book, I am here to clean up national mysticist bias from ethnic group articles. This one is a bad case, and it will stay on my watchlist. You are welcome to be part of the solution of the problem, but you cannot prevent the problem from being solved. As a minimal (minimal!) courtesy, keep your edits regarding the "identity" section separate from those regarding the pruning of the "History" section.  dab (𒁳) 17:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to recognize that if you want any of your changes to stick, you need to discuss them first and get consensus. This "I'm an admin, I can do whatever I want without respecting any rules" attitude will get you nowhere. I've see you do this on the race of ancient Egypt article too which got you in trouble. And for the record you can pursue this for as long as you want, I can guarantee that I can pursue it for as long . Egyegy (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, Dbachmann, as Egyegy pointed out the only reasonable approach to any content dispute is to discuss changes on the talk page in order to reach consensus. You said, So "all my edits are sloppy"? THen how about this] mediculously referenced discussion of the core topic of this article. Two points here: 1. I would agree with the characterization of your latest edit as somewhat "sloppy" because a. it introduced a previously reverted vandalism to another section, b. it contains many typological errors, and c. much of that information is discussed in the modern history section if you had bothered to read it. 2. You consistently miss the point that this type of fluff is not the "topic of the article". It's one thing to give some brief information about it under the identity section, and also in the framework of the 19th-20th century anti-colonial movement (which is discussed in the modern history section where it's relevant), and another entirely to make the article about it. You say If you had any interest in bona fide debate; that's the point, I do not. I am not interested in having a "debate" (a WP:FORUM discussion) about this topic. Remember that this article never even broached this topic until you insisted on including an identity section here. Fine, but I have no desire to "debate" or rehash it. You are welcome to ask me questions about it on my talk page if you're genuinely interested in learning more about this subject, but the article contrary to what you said is not the place to discuss it in the main at all. A reasonably sized section about it is acceptable, *making the article about it* is not. The same applies to the article on Egypt. The only chance that this article has for any neutrality and quality is if it remains thoroughly inundated in academic scholarship on history and culture, not identity politics. You are asking that the article be turned into yet another one of the many articles on Wikipedia that are a frequent battleground for this. How ironic when you claim that your interest is to "clean up" the article from it. Let's keep brief information on that topic for neutrality purposes, but we can't have the article just be about that. — Zerida ☥ 19:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Neither is yours and your violating wikipedia's policy on canvassing to edit war for your friend. Egyegy (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dougweller is right. Assume good faith, people. Unwarranted language, accusations, and assumption of bad faith are unacceptable in the extreme. I see nobody canvassing here; all I see are a couple of editors who seem (to me) to have a sense of ownership fighting tooth and nail to avoid constructive changes they disagree with. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are wrong. Again. Read WP:canvassing. It says: "messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and are generally considered disruptive." This has been nothing but disruptive, which could have very easily been avoided if someone had even a little foresight or tact to have a civil discussion on the talk page before making radical changes. In the meantime why don't you tell us what is that you even understand about this discussion? Egyegy (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, Egyegy has accused me of canvassing. I'd love to see the evidence for that. He hasn't shown me sending any messages. Secondly, one message isn't canvassing as I understand the guideline (the discussion page by the way is very interesting).  Thirdly, Egyegy has just insulted Amatulic, this is not a constructive way to have a discussion.--Doug Weller (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidence was given in the link that I gave in my last post. What I'd love for you to do is show how I "insulted" anyone because I asked what their understanding of the discussion is, since they haven't actually said anything about it. Egyegy (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

text: "summary" revert? Why don't you take your own advice and stop revert warring. Egyegy (talk) 21:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It takes more than one to revert-war, and you are doing the same. You are the only one here who I see violating WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF as well. To Dbachman I would suggest posting proposed text on the talk page first. If it's contentious, that's where it should be discussed. This article is getting very close to being blocked from editing if you guys can't come to an agreement. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You show bias when you say that I'm violating WP:civil without mentioning Bach's continuous violations of this policy. This is something he was sanctioned for. All he's done is bring chaos and hostility to the article. If he really wanted to improve rather than antagonize, he should've taken this to the discussion page from the beginning without constantly attacking the editors on it. I'm not the one who is not assuming good faith. Egyegy (talk) 23:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identity