Talk:Alpha Kappa Alpha/2007-archive

message: I haven't found this information to be anywhere else but from one website.  I can't even find this on the AKA national website.   Are there any other references to claim that, "Lyle was inspired by her then high school and college sweetheart George Lyle, a charter member the Beta chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity at Howard in 1907."  64.12.7.141 08:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In our official history, AKA was inspired by Alpha Phi Alpha's establishment of Beta chapter on Howard University. Bearly541 01:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  inspired by boyfriend 

message: I encountered this link (http://www.black-pearls.org/) while doing some web surfing.  The organization is called, "The Black Pearls."  Are they a part of AKA?  I didn't add the flag to the main page yet, because I wanted to get everyone's opinons on this matter. Real96 19:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a group with it own by-laws and date of incorporation.  The membership includes some AKAs and non-AKAs since the website indiciates that all board of directors must be an AKA, so that suggest that all members are not AKAs.  I don't think it should be included in this article.--Ccson 04:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, a chapter is chartered in Canada. So, definately, yes! See this. Real96 01:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ontario Chapter

message: I suggest that this section be called Founders and Exec or something of that nature.  Soror Bearly541 maybe you will agree with me...especially with the ESP programs, because one acroynm is Every Soror is a Pearl.  I think that all of the members are inportant in thier own right, yes the founders should be hightled, because without them Alpha Kappa Alpha would not exist.
--LivelyIvy1908 01:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Livelyivy.  I think Bearly541 has left the project.  However, with the ESP program, the information on the program should reflect what's made public via the website (http://www.aka1908.com), and not by meetings/private sources/Ivy Leaf publications since the public can't access that information.  AKA, as well as other NPHC organizations, have specific mandates in which certain information can be released.  For example, a brief biography of the Presidents/Founders can be released by looking at what's online, but not by the history book because that's property of the sorority itself which is released to members only. Remember, this page, as well as the Alpha's (and other NPHC organizations) pages are made public and are not the official history of the sororities/fraternities.  In addition, I think Bearly has changed "important members" to "honorary members." Let me know if you need any help.  Real96 02:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Livelyivy, I see what you referred to, and I have changed the title.  Thanks. Real96 02:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important Members?? 

message: I do not know how to write a article that will meet the requirements required by wikipedia.  If anyone think this is worth inclusion check it out.  Ivy Acres community for senior living website www.ivyacres-sri.com This community was created by Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. (LivelyIvy1908 17:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that's worth including because on AKA's website, they don't mention the location.  On the site, if it was supported by Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated, the website would have had a copyright by Alpha Kappa Alpha. I think a member of AKA, but not the organization started this endeavor, but I could be wrong. Real96 03:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: As long as the information is official and supported by the sorority.  However, I would wait, since the complex hasn't been built yet.  Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Real96 22:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ivy Acres 

message: What type of information should be added to make this atricle A class.  For example som things I have noticed included in other articles are the Organization Journal/Magazine.  The official publication of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority is the Ivy Leaf.  Alpha Kappa Alpha was incorporated January 29, 1913.  The New Centennial website offers lots of information including the officer titles for example Basileus (President of Chapter, Supreme Basileus (International President), Second Supreme Anti Basileus (2nd International Vice President (an undergraduate position)). LivelyIvy1908 15:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Alpha Phi Alpha page is a really good example of FA class. You can ask Ccson for additional help on this. Real96 21:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, I got it from the press release on the official website. Real96 22:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, I might make a Pink and Green map for this. Real96 23:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also am improving EAF, since they updated the website. If you could upload a past Ivy Leaf that would be great!  Real96 23:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had to remove the content that you inserted, LI, because it violated WP:COPYRIGHT. Real96 23:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I added the information for the regions to this article. I am also going to add the Miner Hall picture to the history portion.Real96 06:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Ivy, I can add the citation for you, per WP:CITE.  Also, b/c of the permission that I received from the picture site (see bottom topic), I can upload one of the Ivy Leaf images from the 1930s or so, as well as the Miner Hall image. It would be best to e-mail the sorority first for the EAF and the ESP images. I am kind of on break (on and off), but I will update the citation for you. Real96 00:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the Ivy Leaf magazine to the article.  I need to add the MS Health project to the article.  I have also added commons images to the bottom of the article.  More information from other sources would be helpful. Miranda 04:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should include some text regarding the Ivy leaf magazine to justify the inclusion of the picture in the article.  The text should be in close proximit to the picture of the journal.--Ccson 06:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Information to improve article

message: The triva section seems to have been replaced with a header called 'NPHC' but the information that follows seems to have no relation to the NPHC.  EX: Hillary Clinton and Founder Lucy Diggs Slowe and her relation to Elder Watson Diggs of KAPsi.LivelyIvy1908 16:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have corrected it.  I am thinking about putting "Alpha Kappa Alpha founder Lucy Diggs Slowe is related to Kappa Alpha Psi founder Elder Watson Diggs. " into the Kappa Alpha Psi article. Real96 01:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

text: No, would be suitable in the article about Lucy Diggs Slowe or about Diggs himself. Real96 22:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia section

message: I added images from Wikimedia Commons.  I also am wondering if we can upload these images if we have fair use permission from the author. Real96 22:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I e-mailed the group yesterday.  And, thanks for the compliment! Real96 23:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images from Commons 

message: I also found an archive of pictures by the Smithsonian shown here. I should u/l them soon and add them to the article. Real96 02:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is against copyright of 70+ years after the author's death. Miranda 18:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smithsonian pics 

message: I am u/l images to commons which I found from the NIH.  I will make a section soon on the Mississippi Health project (i.e. expand it). Real96 16:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miranda 00:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons Images 

message: I would love to put the Heritage Series in this article.  But the problem is that I don't have the covers for these booklets. Subjects include:
*Women in the Judiciary
*Women in Politics
*Women in Medicine
*Women in Business
*Women in Dentistry
Also, I would like to get access to The American Council on Human Rights: An Evaluation (March 15, 1954). A copy of it is located here on eBay.  I just need to search and find, I guess.  Lively, if you could get some of your sorors to help with adding information the article, that would be excellent, because it seems to me that I am the only one working on the article. :-( Real96 10:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article can list all the booklets, however; I think a single picture from one of the covers would be a suffice as an example of the series.--Ccson 06:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, I think there are too many pictures, and we can leave some pictures out. Miranda 09:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Miranda 02:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Books

message: I was a member of the "Ivy Leaf Pledge Club" at a historically Black university. Our colors were not "pink and blue," nor was our motto, "nothing but the highest." What source was used other than the info. from Wilberforce U. in 1922, as this info. is not "universal" as this article suggests? Avid reader 02:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The information regarding the Ivy Leaf Pledge Club was published by the Wilberforce University chapter.  I think the colors would change at specific universities.  Instead, I will put, For example, at Wilberforce University, the "Ivy Leaf Pledge Club" motto... And, the Wilberforce picture was the only source for that information that I could find online.  I am sure that there is more information in the sorority's history books. Miranda 02:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I have done that, thank you. Miranda 03:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ivy Leaf Pledge Club 

message: The article has improved immensely with the help of several editors.  It would be a great idea to get the article to Feature Article status and possibly have it featured during the  week of January 15, 2008 in honor of the 100th anniversary.  Here is the Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.  Once you have a stable article, the next step is a peer review.  The reviewers can be merciless, but the info is helpful.--Ccson 06:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Feature Article?

message: Please read my comments in the discussion section for your image of Miner Hall.  It is incorrect.205.222.248.31 15:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Responded there. M.(er) 16:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The link provided is the building when it existed in 1868. The image is correct, because it was used by the national website. M.(er) 16:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I will contact the Moreland Springard Research Center by e-mail this weekend and ask them for a picture of Miner Hall for the article. If you have any contact with the Moreland Springard Center, please let them contact me on my talk page or e-mail. For now, I have removed the image on the AKA page, and have copied this conversation to Talk:Alpha Kappa Alpha. Thanks for your help, and tell me if I need to make anymore corrections. M.(er) 23:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this, the building was demolished in 1961. I am currently in contact with the library in order to attain a picture. M.(er) 21:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this is a close up of Miner Hall in 1870 b/c of the center shape of the middle of the building (as compared to the old building). I will crop and use that as fair use public domain into the article. Again, thank you so much for your help. Miranda 06:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Miner Hall Image

message: This is not the correct image of Miner Hall, the founding location of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.  This is a picture of the Miner Teacher's College Building, which was located next to Howard Univerisity.  The building is now owned by the school.  To see a picture of Miner Hall, as it was in 1908, visit http://www.huarchivesnet.howard.edu/9908huarnet/power/progress/progress/sld010.htm
:The link provided is the building when it existed in 1868. The image is correct, because it was used by the national website. M.(er) 16:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will contact the Moreland Springard Research Center by e-mail this weekend and ask them for a picture of Miner Hall for the article. If you have any contact with the Moreland Springard Center, please let them contact me on my talk page or e-mail. For now, I have removed the image on the AKA page, and have copied this conversation to Talk:Alpha Kappa Alpha. Thanks for your help, and tell me if I need to make anymore corrections. M.(er) 23:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this, the building was demolished in 1961. I am currently in contact with the library in order to attain a picture. M.(er) 21:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this is a close up of Miner Hall in 1870 b/c of the center shape of the middle of the building (as compared to the old building). I will crop and use that as fair use public domain into the article. Again, thank you so much for your help. Miranda 06:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy of the conversation

message: Please fix the writing. Or just delete the Delta Sigma Theta section.218.214.18.240 03:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section will not be deleted. However, the wording will be fixed. Miranda 03:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "To proliferate the growth" 

message: Nellie Quander was a graduate member of AKA in the Fall of 1912.  She was initiated into AKA in the Spring of 1911 and became president of alpha chapter AKA in the Spring of 1912.  Nellie Quander graduated from Howard University with a BA, magna cum laude in June of 1912.  So at the Fall 1912 meeting she was a graduate member of AKA and Howard University.  HistoricDeltaSigmaTheta 22:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the information, but this would be better if you have a reliable source (i.e. book, website, etc.) I will do some research too. Also, glad to see you back. Miranda 22:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nellie Quander

message: If any AKA member could help/assist, I am making a list of notable AKAs to correlate with the article, see this. I am having trouble finding some notable AKAs initiate chapters. Your help is beneficiary. Also, do you think the national office could assist in providing the initiate chapters of some notable AKAs? Thanks. Miranda 06:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any difference in honorary versus initiated members that matters to the public? The Corporate Office possibly could help.  I can assist.  For example Phylicia Rashad is not honorary, she is an initiated member, quite possibility Alpha Chapter.LivelyIvy1908 18:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I have been doing researching. I thought it would be nice to have a featured list/updated list with this article...see List of Alpha Phi Alpha brothers. I have been working with this in my sandbox. You can see my progress there. Miranda 20:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assistance with non-honorary members 

message: *Unless there is a good reason to do so, Wikipedia avoids linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader.[2]  Links in quotes are taken out.
*Redlinks are appropriate as long as they are relevant to the article and notable within themselves as an article. Are all the redlinks in this article potential articles? If not, they need to be removed.[3]
:Potential articles. I am working on them. Miranda 22:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Beginnings: 1907-1912

message: *"When the word was spread to Nellie Quander about changing the sorority namesake, she was said to be "horrified" at the proposal and gave the women who disagreed with her a deadline to terminate the efforts of reorganizing the sorority." - Nellie Quander is not previously mentioned in the article, thereby causing this sentence to lack context. 
*The constant listing of names is distracting and makes the article difficult to read, in my opinion.
*"Later, Quander led the group which incorporated Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority as a perpetual body on January 29, 1913.[17] Quander, along with Nellie Pratt Russell, Julia Evangeline Brooks, Norma Elizabeth Boyd, Ethel Jones Mowbray, and Minnie B. Smith incorporated the sorority.[9]" - These two sentences appear to be stating the same thing, but in different ways. If so, combine the information into one sentence. See below. Miranda 20:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I based the pearls off of symbolism. See this for Alpha Phi Alpha. Miranda 05:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cession and formation of Delta Sigma Theta: 1912-1913

message: First thanks for providing this review. Let me respond to your points. First, the quotations are necessary to the order in order to introduce the importance of the scope of the programs (in the national programs section), to provide the purpose of the sorority (first quotation) and to provide the experience that one person had pledging in the sorority. The red links are future articles of AKA founders.  Nellie Quander is an incorporator who was the only one from the group to table the decision not to change the colors of the sorority as well as the motto and the ideals, thus bringing up the cession of seven women leaving the sorority to form DST. I am trying to eventually make this into a FA like Alpha Phi Alpha. Any help would be appropriate. Thanks. Miranda 03:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The placement of the quotes is fine, imo, it's the wikilinking within the quotes that needs to be removed. If all the redlinks are notable subjects that will be able to successfully hold their own article, that's fine. They'll have to be created prior to FA, of course. I read about who Nellie Quander is by clicking and reading her article, however, that shouldn't be required. There should be some introduction as to who she is before she is mentioned as being outraged. Lara♥Love 04:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, I haven't thought of that. Let me do a little research and add that to the article soon (couple of days). Miranda 05:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have time to look over those in-depth, but the first thing I notice is there are not paragraphs of names listed. I can't help but assume all of the women listed and linked in the article are not notable enough to hold their own article. It seems, to me, to be unnecessary to list all of these women. The first pledges for example, don't seem notable to me. And it does not improve the readability of the article to have so many names listed. People don't care to read names, imo, particularly when they aren't previously familiar with those names. Lara♥Love 19:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Sections three and four are kind of under construction. I need to do further research on these sections, such as citations. The "horrified" quote is cited from the Delta Sigma Theta book. I kind of added a minor description of who Nellie Quander was. Criticism of sororities can be found on Fraternities and Sororities, more general. Hazing is mentioned in the 1990s/present day section. Updated the mdash in the quote. Miranda 18:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article custodian comments/questions

message: The nomination was placed on hold July 27 to allow time for issues already noted in the review in progress to be addressed while I completed the review. Very little progress has been made. Three days remain on the hold. Regards, Lara♥Love 18:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Issues have not been addressed, therefore, the article will not be listed as a GA at this time. Once the article has been brought up to standards, it may be renominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision was made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R. Regards, Lara♥Love 03:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Conclusion

message: I took out the founders names in the beginning paragraph and put them in this table. I fixed the images as well, so they wouldn't be sandwiched. Miranda 00:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The images are still sandwiched. It's bordering on over-illustrated, I think. Also, for :Image:Aka1932.jpg, did you go through the foundation when confirming their release of the copyright? Lara❤Love 15:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, thanks for reminding me. Those pics come from the same site. Miranda 17:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rationale provided. And, I took the pearls image out. Miranda 18:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update 

message: I am worried about the lead section, because for an article of this length, three or for paragraphs are required due to this. Miranda 22:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would expect an article of this length, with this much information, to be 4 paragraphs. Lara❤Love 15:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am so not good with lead sections. Someone else may want to help out in this area. Miranda 18:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Split intro into three sections. Miranda 20:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Section 

message: * is for pull quotes only. The instructions for this template indicate that the usage in this article is inappropriate.  should be used instead. Lara❤Love 15:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Took the ital. out. However, I am confused about the usage of quote v. cquote. Miranda 18:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Made appropriate changes. Miranda 20:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes

message: Might want to format the citations, (b/c some have p. and others have pp.), as well as the difference b/n op. cit. and op. ed.? But we will do this once the sections are complete. I am not completely done with the article. Miranda 12:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed this. Miranda 22:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: This is what you, Ivy, or any AKA can do for that matter in regards to AKA involvement. Take pictures of AKAs getting involved with community service, and upload them to Wikipedia under a GFDL or CC-BY, CC-BY-SA license. Take a picture of Rankin Church this of the AKA window at Howard University to upload to Wikipedia under a CC-BY-SA, CC-BY, or PD license to replace Marjorie Parker's book. Miranda 06:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you had of said everything else but that first sentence (This is what you, Ivy, or any AKA can do for that matter in regards to AKA involvement.) I would have considered providing you some. I have quite a few from the Baptist Children's Home, Coat Drive for the homeless, etc., etc. We don't need to "do" anything we've done a lot by becoming members. Let me know if I am reading into that statement the wrong way. Good job on consolidating the Boules. There's some more that can be worked on as well. Will post suggestions to this page for improvements.Knicksfan4ever 06:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be awesome to improve the page and replace fair images with free images. Please? That would be great. A picture of Rankin Memorial Chapter will be great, too. If you can't get Rankin, I can ask someone else. Also, pictures of Barbara McKinzie and Linda White would be great as well. Some AKA activities are closed to the public, that's why I said that. Miranda 06:39, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I do have a photo of Soror McKinzie at the Alpha Centennial (I'm in it though). I can crop it to just include her. I can upload it, will do sometime this weekend.Knicksfan4ever 06:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I uploaded it here , still learning so not sure if I did it correctly. You can edit, etc. Looking for some more, I have so many photos to go through. I haven't been to Howard in years, I will this summer of course. I believe there is a free image out there of the AKA window, will do some searching. I will be off wiki for a bit in the next two weeks, I will be busy at work. Will be in touch.Knicksfan4ever 14:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: You can get pictures of Ivy Leaf AKAdemy since it's related to that. Miranda 02:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The photo listed as Miner Hall is Main Hall-one of the original buildings.  It was located where Founders Library now stands.  The photo you posted on Howard's wikipedia page shows Miner Hall (on the left--I changed that reference).  That image should be used instead.
205.222.248.31 (talk) 15:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Picture fixed. Also thanks Knicksfan4ever and to Lively for the photos. I have added them and asked graphics lab to enhance the window image to put on the featured layout (sandbox, tree is used as a placeholder at the moment). Once that process is done...I guess we can take a poll to see which day the article should be featured. Miranda 10:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: I advise someone else to nominate this article for featured article, since I am retiring from this project due to a disruptive editor. Miranda 20:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured

message: I recommend the two paragraphs on the 1991 hazing deaths and lawsuit be deleted. That will help keep the article focused on bigger issues which the sorority is working on. --Parkwells (talk) 04:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Miranda 07:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bridging Toward the 21st Century

message: The text says this was established in New York, then dissolved in 1961 "to incorporate ideals about international service", or something like that (hard to remember).  Does anyone know what that means? --Parkwells (talk) 04:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dissolved to incorporate health into AKA's 5 national points. Miranda 07:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: National Health Ofc

message: I happened to participate in the discussion about AfD for this article and ones on the founders.  Miranda and others did so much good work on putting this together. The article on the sorority (and each of the founders) can be strengthened, in terms of AfD challenges, by 
#providing more background, historical and social context (e.g., only 5% of whites went to college), and cites/links to sources that talk about the role and status of Howard and its place in African American education and the building of social capital - so these women's roles can be appreciated. 
#provide a Background section: to allow placing Howard and these young women in historical context - so the article is about the sorority at Howard and in society, which editors brought out with many of the programs the sorority has supported through the years.
#develop some standard background material that can be used for each of the founders;  
#relate the establishment of the sorority to the growth of fraternal organizations since the Civil War and emancipation;
#relate the sorority to the building of social capital - an African American elite and national networks (one of the books relates to that and may have more that could be used);
#place individual's lives in context of social changes - for instance, the Great Migration changing where there were populations to be served;
#show the achievement of individuals who taught in high school or led departments when most women were expected to teach primary school;
Have also been rereading James Anderson's book about the Education of Blacks in the South, 1860-1935.  As the article touches on and some of these women's careers demonstrate in terms of where they lived, they were also part of the massive change represented by the Great Migration, so their teaching in northern cities was just as important. They had the chance to reach so many African American children there and probably children who could be in school for more months of the year. 
Only 5% of whites went to college at that time (from Anderson's book).  It was only at the turn of the century that Michigan started providing a 4-year college curriculum for its normal colleges and training of teachers, for example.  People today don't realize how new and provisional so much education was, both in the North and the South.  Everyone considered the role of teachers critical, and the raising of teacher standards also critical. So these young women were important in their persons, in their examples, as well as in what they did.
I think we need to bring out those portions and reduce some of the material more concerned with internal sorority issues.  Would like to help.--Parkwells (talk) 13:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whenever you insert information from a book, please cite the page number, please. Thanks. Miranda 21:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do.  These women were so impressive.--Parkwells (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: Editors have already referenced some of these. I can get to some parts online, perhaps enough for the article.
# African American Fraternities and Sororities-Tamara L. Brown, Gregory Parks, Clarenda M. Phillips -U of KY, 2005 (looks like just the sort of academic, scholarly study we had in mind)
#"African American Sororities", Greta Hendricks Johnson, grad student, Ferris State U., 2007, an information paper (has a bibliography, inline source cites - some of the basic approach we had agreed on in comments on the AfD.  She used Ross, below, among others.) http://www.learningtogive.org/papers/index.asp?bpid=172, retrieved 8 Dec 2007
#The Divine Nine - Lawrence C. Ross, Jr., 2000 (about the first nine sororities & fraternities, some excerpts seem to show he leaned heavily on their own materials)
#Our Kind of People: Inside America's Black Upper Class, Lawrence Otis Graham, 1999
#The Power of Good Deeds: Privileged Women and the Social Reproduction of the Upper Class, Diana Elizabeth Kendall, Rowman & Littlefield, 2002  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parkwells (talk • contribs) 15:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I've rewritten the first paragraph to set context. I think the remainder of the lead should have more about the sorority and its leadership through the 20th century, rather than the internal working (how someone gets to be a member) or even the current president.  Her name could go below.--Parkwells (talk) 15:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Found some scholarly material to add.--Parkwells (talk) 14:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: Somewhere in your excellent references, I saw a long list of women who have been and are members of AKA. Did you consider adding some of them to the article to show the breadth of membership?  I noticed the Alpha Phi Alpha article identified some famous members (and know that is sometimes easier to do for men). --Parkwells (talk) 18:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All of the notable members are listed on the Alpha Kappa Alpha National Website, however, some members that are in the entertainment field, high-ranking officials, etc, prefer to keep their membership unknown to the public. Most of the notable members on the website are honorary and were not initiated in college or through a graduate chapterKnicksfan4ever (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No not really. Just added the honorary members. I didn't want to overflow the article with trivial information. If they wanted to know about famous members, then they can click the list of famous members. Miranda 19:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. That would be overflow. With the List of Alpha Kappa Alpha sisters page there shouldn't be a need to add it to the the Alpha Kappa Alpha article. Knicksfan4ever (talk) 19:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen the national page and agree.--Parkwells (talk) 17:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Members

message: The reason I used the percentages for both African Americans and whites was to show how limited the pool of college students/graduates was - many people don't know or realize how different conditions were then. Most people, no matter who they were, didn't go to college.--Parkwells (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: % of People in College

message: The first paragraph has a lot of internal details - selection of jewelry, pin, etc. that don't contribute to the sorority's notability in society. Maybe it would be better if these were put in a separate section lower in the article - sort of an internal development, or "internal history". They seem like not very important issues here, against the background of social changes.--Parkwells (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1920-1940

message: I noticed the sorority materials have the "é", not "è". I'm trying to fix them all.--Parkwells (talk) 17:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the sorority's history book, Boule with "è" is mentioned. Miranda 18:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I fixed it. Miranda 18:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Boulé

message: There are a number of places where you have two citations for what appears to be one factual statement. Only one is needed for verifiability, and it would be best to have it from a third-party source, one that isn't connected to the sorority, if there's a choice.--Parkwells (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two citations are better b/c it strengthens the argument. Miranda 20:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also the two facts from one sentence comes from 2 different citations. Miranda 15:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: Was there a decision in the lawsuit? The article keeps you hanging with the info that they brought suit.--Parkwells (talk) 15:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They made a settlement out of court. You may want to ask an AKA member. Miranda 15:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lawsuit for hazing deaths

message: You've made terrific additions to the bios for these women. I've enjoyed collaborating with you and have learned a lot! I think there are some founders who may not get separate articles, because of early death, losing touch with the sorority or quieter lives, but we gave them a good shot. Those could be wrapped into one article, if necessary.--Parkwells (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Founders and Incorporators

message: This is way into POV, especially since these additions aren't sourced. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a place to carry out arguments between the two sororities. The additions include  too much feeling language (they didn't understand the delicate position...), the indirect "it is agreed...". Who says?  Who agrees? More to the point, none of this detail is appropriate to put in the article. At this late date, it's unlikely you could find any source that could "prove" the 22 "wanted to destroy AKA". I don't have a personal stake in this and don't know the sororities, but it appears inappropriate for an encyclopedia to go into this level of detail about a split so many years ago. It's not world history.--Parkwells (talk) 18:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the decision to remove those additions.  The section could be shortened more just to report the results of the split.--Parkwells (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, not really You added that Deltas wanted to split and model their sorority after Omega Psi Phi without giving sources. If you want to add information about Delta's relationship with Omega Psi Phi, then please add it to Delta Sigma Theta. IMHO, it's 1.) trivial 2.) detracts from the point of the article. 3.) unsourced and speculation without facts. The original revision was sourced. Please leave it at the original revision because I am trying to make this an FA, and don't have time to search for POVish sources which said that the "Deltas wanted to destroy AKA." Miranda 18:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have me confused with someone else.I didn't have anything to do with those additions, Miranda.--Parkwells (talk) 18:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the IP was you. Sorry. Miranda 18:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

text: When I was working on my thesis, I also read that the founders of Delta Sigma Theta had formed a bond with the founders of Omega Psi Phi (hence their selection of the violet for their flower) and I believe it was in Paula Giddings book. I'll try to look into it over the next few weeks for clarifications
205.222.248.31 (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AKA39, I think that should be on the Delta Sigma Theta page. We are trying to describe the relationship b/n AKAs and Deltas. I have ISOS and I will look into it as well. Miranda 15:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine.  But if I find the reference, I'll provide it for you.  (It is also possible that it was in an older edition of the book...)
205.222.248.31 (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Obviously the "split" should be included on both pages, however, I don't think it needs to be a long drawn out story. In both sororites history books, the stories slightly differ Knicksfan4ever 14:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additions about the split between founders and Delta Sigma Theta

message: The Founders of DST selected the Violet as our official flower because it has a special and significant meaning to Delta Sorors only and not because of the men of OSP.  The African Violet is worn by Sorors to symbolize a special bond with the men of OSP.  This should in no way imply that the Founders of DST voted to reorganize AKA because of the men of OSP or that the men of OSP had anything to do with the founding of DST.  The only difference in the editions of ISOS are the correction of the typos in the book.  HistoricDST (talk) 18:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Point of Clarification

message: Hey everyone! It's awesome that so many people are contributing to help this article become a FA. I have an idea, before we make any major edits (I'm guilty of this), let's discuss it here so it can be consistent. Miranda has worked so hard on it, so lets not have her efforts be in vain. Minor edits like grammar, punctuation etc, shouldn't be an issue. If you aren't sure about a particular subject, post it here and we all can help each other out collectively to get this article Featured. The Centennial is fast approaching, it would awesome to have it featured by then. Thanks!!!! Knicksfan4ever 13:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is what we are doing now. Look at the talk page's history. miranda 14:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see some of it, I also see a lot of back and forth, just wanted to put that out there to make sure everyone was on one accord. How long does it usually take to get an article featured? Knicksfan4ever 14:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: There are subtle differences between British/Australian and American usage. Americans tend to use "centennial" more than "centenary" for the anniversary. (Confirmed by checking online dictionaries that "centenary" tended to be British usage.) For instance, we celebrated the bicentennial of the US in 1976.  Not sure if that makes a difference for the article, but AKA started as an American sorority.  
:Also, in writing about the percentage of African Americans in college in the early 1900s, I used the phrasing of the original scholar, James D. Anderson, in stating "1/3 of one percent". I think he wrote it that way to emphasize it, not so much because of general practice in expressing percentages.--Parkwells (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 1/3 of 1 percent is too wordy IMHO. miranda 22:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Language

message: I modified the narrative slightly to conform to the newspaper articles and police findings, and put the family's contentions in the section on the lawsuit. It's important not to go beyond the facts of the police report. There appeared to be questions about what type of chapter even existed - one newspaper article contended the young women were pledging a citywide chapter; the sorority said the chapter at Cal State LA had been suspended, implying there wasn't another.--Parkwells (talk) 03:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed the cite, too. miranda 04:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks for fixing that, I wasn't sure how to add the reference, but I definitely thought the fact that the sorority had suspended the chapter prior to the incident needed to be included. Knicksfan4ever 15:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2002 Deaths at Dockweiler Beach