Talk:Minneapolis

message: I (once again) request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Boston ((featured)), etc):
 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 21:26, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't that the current lead you have pasted there? And there are no "standards" that must be followed based off how other articles are written.  oncamera  (talk page) 22:51, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops wrong one 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 23:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Let me try that again 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 23:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revival of previous discussion regarding the lead 

message: I (once again) request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Boston ((featured)), etc):
Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ⓘ MIN-ee-AP-ə-lis), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, the population was 429,954. Cleter (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: First, don't delete my comments when making edits to your comments, especially when I pointed out there's no "standard" that must be followed when writing the lead sentence. Secondly, I disagree with your version, it's not an improvement: the current version that puts "most populous city" after the population number is clearer and better organized when reading.  oncamera  (talk page) 00:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I apologize for deleting your comment (which you can revert anyways).  yeah I don't believe in a standard either, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't seek improvements to an existing version (after all, that's the point of Wikipedia). Secondly, just how is it better organized? 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I shouldn't have to revert to keep my comments on a talkpage discussion. And the current version avoids the long run-on opening sentence in your version. You don't need to fit everything into one sentence, especially when the following sentence is about the population; that's logically where the "most populous city" fact should be included.  oncamera  (talk page) 00:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Oncamera I agree. glman (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh hey @glman! Long time no see, huh? (Last time I saw you you ghosted 15 days ago in a topic that needed consensus.) 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Cleter, you've been reverted a number of times as well and there was no one who agreed with your version in the previous discussion: you'll have to accept you may not actually change consensus and refrain from making personal attacks against editors who do not agree with you.  oncamera  (talk page) 00:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Oncamera - Agreed. I did not "ghost", but provided my perspective and was done. I still feel that the current format is best, despite the work the user has done to many other articles to "make them better" glman (talk) 15:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

text: @Oncamera I disagree with your assessment of the lead sentence structure. Combining the information into one sentence is a common and efficient approach in Wikipedia articles for major cities. It provides a clear and concise introduction, which is consistent with the style used in similar entries. 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revival of previous discussion regarding the lead 

message: Greetings. As the last step of FAR, the lead needs to be inclusive of all sections in the article. I propose the following.  Your comments? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a tourism guide to Minneapolis and not in Encyclopedia tone such as "Favorite son Prince", other things are not significant enough to be in the lead such as the Ojibwe treatment center or "downtown ambassadors greet visitors".  oncamera  (talk page) 23:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you suggest? The two sentences on DID ambassadors and Red Lake Nation are gone. Prince represents the music section. This is rather challenging to mention every section. Can you help? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , kindly edit the above in place. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead does not need to mention every section per MOS:LEAD, just what is important. On Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents.  oncamera  (talk page) 16:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, except we only have about three FAR reviewers still active. One says, "My opinion is: if there's a heading for it in the body, it should be mentioned in the lede, even if only briefly." -SusanLesch (talk) 17:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just their opinion. The lead shouldn't be filled with less important things about city greeters, that's absurd.  oncamera  (talk page) 17:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , I invite you to improve the lead. The person who was assigned that task hasn't done it, and we are at the end of FAR. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

text: It's improved. One thing: I've never heard/read anyone be called a "Minneapolitan" and it shows up as a typo on my browser. Can that be simplified to just citizens in the sentence: "and many Minneapolitans choose to volunteer?"  oncamera  (talk page) 22:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Reworded that. (I've heard the Minneapolitan demonym since at least fourth grade.) Anything else? Do you think I can put this in the article now? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , I tweaked the list of companies. Is this one OK to put in the article? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  New lead 

message: Minneapolis, officially the City of Minneapolis, is a city in the state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. With a population of 429,954, it is the state's most populous city as of the 2020 census. It occupies both banks of the Mississippi River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and the surrounding area are collectively known as the Twin Cities, a metropolitan area home to 3.69 million inhabitants. Minneapolis is built on an artesian aquifer on flat terrain, and is known for cold, snowy winters and warm, humid summers. Nicknamed the "City of Lakes", Minneapolis is abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks, and waterfalls. The city's extensive public park system is connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway.
Dakota people originally inhabited the site of today's Minneapolis. European settlement began north of Fort Snelling along Saint Anthony Falls—the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River. The city's early growth was attributed to its proximity to the fort and the falls providing power for industrial activity. Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world, and as home to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century. A Minneapolis Depression-era labor strike brought about federal worker protections. Work in Minneapolis contributed to the computing industry, and the city is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, Target Corporation, and of Thermo King mobile refrigeration.
The city's major arts institutions include the Minneapolis Institute of Art, the Walker Art Center, and the Guthrie Theater. Four professional sports teams play downtown. Prince is survived by his favorite venue, the First Avenue nightclub. Minneapolis is home to the University of Minnesota's main campus. The city's public transport is provided by Metro Transit and the international airport, serving the Twin Cities region, is located towards the south on the city limits.
Residents adhere to more than fifty religions, and thousands choose to volunteer their time. Despite its well-regarded quality of life, Minneapolis faces a pressing challenge in the form of stark disparities among its residents—arguably the most critical issue confronting the city in the 21st century. Governed by a mayor-council system, Minneapolis has a political landscape dominated by the Minnesota Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party (DFL), with Jacob Frey serving as mayor since 2018.
, please see what you think of the above. Do you think it's better? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's improved. One thing: I've never heard/read anyone be called a "Minneapolitan" and it shows up as a typo on my browser. Can that be simplified to just citizens in the sentence: "and many Minneapolitans choose to volunteer?"  oncamera  (talk page) 22:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Reworded that. (I've heard the Minneapolitan demonym since at least fourth grade.) Anything else? Do you think I can put this in the article now? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , I tweaked the list of companies. Is this one OK to put in the article? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: New lead 2

message: Hey everyone! I am planning to make some changes here and these to Minneapolis's page. Please feel free to let me know if I messed up something because this is my first time editing on wikipedia. My plan is to maybe update the different cuisines that have entered (somali, indian, and so on). The list of “sister cities” needs to be updated based on the new information from https://www.minneapolis.org/about-us/sister-cities/    — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apurnuh (talk • contribs) 23:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome, . Have you considered joining WP:WikiProject Minnesota before jumping in here? Thank you, I agree the sister cities day could be added to the section on Annual events, and I made that change. Caribou Coffee headquarters is in Brooklyn Center not in Minneapolis so I removed that addition. The article already mentions Somali cuisine. Have you considered adding your favorites at Cuisine of Minnesota? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , I'm not sure you got this message here. I moved your thread down to chronological order. Here's a long Help:Talk pages help page. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , I'll try to work in the farmers market. As it is your edit cannot remain here because WP:USCITIES guidelines state that rankings like the one you added are not admissable. I will also remove the link you placed behind the word vaudeville per WP:EL. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , this is a featured article. Wikipedia cannot accept unsourced statements, so I removed the Sculpture Garden. I hope you will look elsewhere for opportunities to edit Wikipedia. It's a long learning curve. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @SusanLesch Thank you! I am sorry if I messed up the article by adding the garden and farmer's market. Thank you for working in the farmer's market if you can!  Apurnuh (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, both the sculpture garden and farmers markets in general are here now. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , please do not add unsourced material. I removed your explanation for MSP. The city is roughly 5 by 11 miles, so saying the airport is 10 miles from downtown means little. We don't need to spell out the name of the airport (which is quite long) twice in two sentences. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , I hope you will continue editing. It might take a while but you got off to an excellent start. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuisines and Sister Cities 

message: Thank you for your edit. I will reword the entry accordingly; please note though, the US Patent Office says the company was incorporated in Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can tell, at least one of the brothers still lives in Waconia. I'm tempted to leave this out. How would you account for the patent office statement? -SusanLesch (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: They probably went to the nearest pattent office. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed them. (One of the brothers talks pretty loosely about location, saying that Minneapolis is the hockey capital of the US. He seems to forget about Waconia as I did.) Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rollerblades 

message: Excuse me, . There's no improvement after your changes. Why single out one missionary who may have been one of the first White people to see the falls but is known for staying at Mille Lacs Lake nowhere near Minneapolis, and skip over Britain's arrival? In the same stroke, you chopped out every other person. Your edit summary is peculiar, . The paragraph you just removed explains that indeed it was. I suggest you read Mni Sota Makoce: The Land of the Dakota by Westerman and White if you have a disagreement with that.
You wrote,  First, this is ludicrous. Your choice of sources is fine but cannot stand up to those that were already used in this article. Why don't you add yours to Further reading? Works cited gives you dozens of sources that mention Minneapolis. The page you cite says up front,  But you chose to skip the British (and for some reason, you chose to cherry pick from a web page instead of reading and digesting the sources we already use). Second, you don't own this article any more than anyone else does.
A reminder of some featured article objectives:
*
*
Why are you trying to make big changes today? We haven't heard anything from you for four months since you asked to include The Fall of Minneapolis on November 20, 2023 -SusanLesch (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding this source, you write: "Your choice of sources is fine but cannot stand up to those that were already used in this article. Why don't you add yours to Further reading?" You were the one who added this source to the article in the first place.  Moreover, it specifically mentions Hennepin's observations of the Indigenous people he encountered specifically in Minneapolis (the title of this article). Magnolia677 (talk) 10:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, Hennepin has been called a crank. The source you cite mentions Minneapolis, just as this one mentions Minneapolis. That doesn't mean we must include it here. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me get this straight.  You added the source, and now that another editor has also used the same source, you don't like it anymore?  It doesn't really matter which source gets cited, but Hennepin was the first European to visit Minneapolis, so his comments about what he saw when he arrived are worth mentioning.  Finally, what is the relevance of this source? --Magnolia677 (talk) 15:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: My objection was to your interpretation of the source (you erased indigenous history and the arrival of the British). I wondered if you remembered Wikipedia's featured article criteria. And I asked why you made major changes now after four months of silence. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly been a while, but as we say in the Delta, I've been busier than a church fan in August...spending time with the Mega Society and the Trump campaign...and have missed  much of the discourse here, but Ay, caramba!, in my absence, the Indigenous history of the western United States has mistakenly been presented as the history of the Mini Apple, and an editor believes the City of Lakes is in fact the homeland of the Dakota!  Maybe we can all find a compromise and avoid dispute resolution.  Thank you! Magnolia677 (talk) 19:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see you continue to ignore all the ongoing history of Dakota and European-Americans in the Dakota homelands that Minneapolis is built on, you even think the name means "Mini Apple". How cute.  oncamera  (talk page) 19:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Search of Hennepin's book does not find "blueberries" so I'd have to challenge that quote. But it's a translation so who knows. The translator did mention whortleberries. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Mini Apple" is sourced content in the article. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Your edits to Dakota history 

message: Hi, . Great to meet you. I think you might enjoy the second paragraph of this article by Bruce White. It's the clearest and shortest explanation that Minneapolis is the Dakota homeland that I've seen so far. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I agree, but that's WP:SELFPUBLISHED and isn't a reliable source. Unless you can prove that Bruce White is a reliable author, which you are welcome to do, I don't think it can be used. PersusjCP (talk) 22:23, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just for your information, because I noticed you had a problem with the heading (). No worries on WP:RS. Tom Weber says the same thing in Minneapolis: An Urban Biography (Chapter 1). Dr. White is a subject matter expert, who won a Minnesota Book Award and another prize with Gwen Westerman for Mni Sota Makoce: The Land of the Dakota which I recommend. Take care. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dakota "homeland" covered five states and four provinces.  Look at the map.  Stating that little Minneapolis is the Dakota "homeland" is factually incorrect. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The City of Saint Paul has a map showing all the Dakota villages and sacred sites created by cultural department of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community, it also says the Twin Cities area is "Homeland to the Dakota people". This same map is installed as an art installation in a city park overlooking Fort Snelling. The map you're using shows territory that includes the many bands of the Lakota, Western Dakota and Eastern Dakota, which are all of the Oceti Sakowin. You complained earlier that the history section was telling the history of the whole western United States instead of what's in Minneapolis (or even Minnesota) yet you're doing the same thing with that source covering all of the Sioux as your argument of removing Dakota homelands in Minneapolis. Saint Paul land acknowledgement also says Dakota homelands to go with the sources I linked in the first Dakota homeland section.  oncamera  (talk page) 23:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This map shows much larger area, and the Minnesota Historical Society used the same heading we have now. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:49, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

text: You might be misinterpreting what they are saying. Minneapolis is PART of the Dakota homeland. The Dakota did not spring up directly from some Minneapolis suburb, no one is saying that. But to deny that the Minneapolis region is not Dakota homeland is simply not factual, as Oncamera and SusanLesch have quite thoroughly proved. PersusjCP (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There are Dakota beliefs that they did in fact originate from where the Minnesota and Mississippi rivers meet in the area that includes Minneapolis and Saint Paul known as Bdóte.  oncamera  (talk page) 00:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, I didn't know that. That makes it even more the case that this is relevant, then :) PersusjCP (talk) 01:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Thank you, then. I will be sure to look into it :) I could go either way on that title. My main problem about it being "too specific" is that Dakota history in the region is more than just about their homeland. It being "too broad" is that the Dakota homeland is more than just Minneapolis, and while it is true that Minneapolis is Dakota homeland, I fear it may be just a bit too vague to be the title of the section.  PersusjCP (talk) 23:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if I'm out of sync with you guys, but to finish my thought: The historical society says, as does this article, the Dakota have multiple origin stories. The society says one is widely held in this region. This article says  I'd make only one correction to what we have there: omit the word "nearby". -SusanLesch (talk) 01:39, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dakota homeland 

message: Hello fellow editors, we are proposing some expansions and improvements to the Minneapolis article to enhance its comprehensiveness and accuracy:
===Geography=== 
We plan to add more details about the city's geography, including its location within Minnesota, topography, and notable natural features like lakes, rivers, and parks.
===Demographics=== 
The article could use additional demographic information on population size, ethnic/racial makeup, languages spoken, and religious affiliations in the city.
===Culture Section=== 
We want to substantially expand the Culture section by adding specifics on the arts, music, literature, theater, festivals, cuisine, and other significant cultural institutions or traditions in Minneapolis.
===Landmarks and Attractions=== 
We will highlight more of the city's notable landmarks, attractions, tourist destinations, historic sites, museums, sports venues, and other points of interest.
We plan to rely primarily on sources from city/state government websites, travel guides, newspaper articles, and scholarly publications when making these additions. Please let me know if you have any feedback or suggestions related to expanding the Minneapolis article in these areas. We look forward to improving the article's coverage together.
Suchithra_moolinti, Kambh021 - Tagging co-editors working on this along with me. Sireesha-p23 (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are these AI bot accounts? Sorry, but they all write their user pages in the same way and have made very little edits.  oncamera  (talk page) 00:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well-spotted, ! Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This turned out to be real students editing without good guidance. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

text: , sorry I understand you are probably not in that class. To repeat, Wikipedia will not accept unsourced material. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Lizzo is now mentioned briefly. The music section has been trimmed from a list of everybody's favorites down to a minimum. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansions Proposal for the Minneapolis Article 

message: We will highlight more of the city's notable landmarks, attractions, tourist destinations, historic sites, museums, sports venues, and other points of interest.
We plan to rely primarily on sources from city/state government websites, travel guides, newspaper articles, and scholarly publications when making these additions. Please let me know if you have any feedback or suggestions related to expanding the Minneapolis article in these areas. We look forward to improving the article's coverage together.
Suchithra_moolinti, Kambh021 - Tagging co-editors working on this along with me. Sireesha-p23 (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are these AI bot accounts? Sorry, but they all write their user pages in the same way and have made very little edits.  oncamera  (talk page) 00:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well-spotted, ! Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:17, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This turned out to be real students editing without good guidance. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

text: , sorry I understand you are probably not in that class. To repeat, Wikipedia will not accept unsourced material. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Lizzo is now mentioned briefly. The music section has been trimmed from a list of everybody's favorites down to a minimum. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Landmarks and Attractions

message: Wikipedia needs help on dozens of articles and we seem to be hung up on this one. This article is on a list of stalled FARs. Would you please provide your improvements here to "the third, forth, and fifth paragraph"? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never purposely edited an article in order to improve its "featured article" status.  Not my interest. This article became an interest to me a few years ago when I tried to remove the tremendous amount of puffery and promotional content within it.  This was followed by much pushback, although that cruft was eventually removed by consensus.  My concern now is multiple paragraphs of history that are completely out-of-scope.  In time, I will edit each--and if the past is any predictor--will have have my edits immediately reverted, which will be followed by more protracted dispute resolution.  However, because my concerns are valid and based in policy (not ideology), they are taken seriously.  This may be another reason FA has been stalled. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  would you please provide your changes? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

text: ,  (see next section). Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stalled FAR 

message: and , do you have any comments on this version of the first section? I trimmed out a lot. The exception is I kept in the war in 1862, even though it was in the Minnesota River valley and not in Minneapolis, because otherwise it makes no sense to march a population to Fort Snelling and then banish them. I don't anticipate we'll get anything from Magnolia677 soon (in the above section). Thank you for your time and expertise. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the edits. I think you can add a sentence about Gideon Pond, or the missionary Pond Brothers, helping Dakota leader Cloud Man to establish his Euro-style agricultural village Heyatae Othunwe info here next to Bde Maka Ska as a specific example after these paragraphs: "Agents of the St. Peters Indian Agency at the fort enforced the US policy of assimilating Native Americans into mainstream American society, asking them to give up subsistence hunting and cultivate the land.[19] Missionaries encouraged Native Americans to convert from their religion to Christianity.[19]"  oncamera  (talk page) 19:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What a relief, thank you! Do you prefer the Pond brothers be mentioned in the first section, or are they all right where they are now, in Education? I was reading about the school at Lake Harriet yesterday. After the 1837 treaty, the school only got five to eight students because so many Mdewakanton were upset that the US sent their money to the missionaries. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: How about I expand the education section with this?  Only problem there is that Wikipedia seems to almost ignore the Dakota, don't you think? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the treaty. I believe Wikipedia skipped it. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Swapped the proposed cuts in to History, and cited a new sentence in Education (where there was more room). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

text: *Removed though it is pertinent. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

text: The site of Minneapolis was originally part of the Fort Snelling military reservation. John H. Stevens was the first civilian given permission by the Fort to build a house on the site that would become Minneapolis. It's not comparable to the Statue of Liberty.  oncamera  (talk page) 20:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So all this Indian history occurred at Fort Snelling, prior to the establishment of Minneapolis in 1867.  Then why is it necessary to include five whopping paragraphs about something that happened prior to the establishment of the city, and which is covered by another article about the place that existed here before?  In other words, if A lasted from 1700 to 1900, and B lasted from 1901 to 2024, you wouldn't add five paragraphs about A, to B's article. All these details about stuff that happened at Fort Snelling--prior to the establishment of Minneapolis--should be cut, and readers directed to the appropriate article. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't exaggerate. I cut more than a kilobyte out of the first section. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Also, the Minnesota historical society calls it a concentration camp in their website about the Dakota war of 1862: "The concentration camp at Fort Snelling was not a death camp, and Dakota people were not systematically exterminated there. The camp was, however, a part of the genocidal policies pursued against Indigenous people throughout the US. Colonists and soldiers hunted down and killed Dakota people, abused them physically and mentally, imprisoned them, and subjected them to a campaign calculated to make them stop being Dakota." The image used on Wikipedia of the concentration camp is captioned as such on that article as well.  oncamera  (talk page) 22:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So add this WP:CFORK to the Fort Snelling article, not here.  Minneapolis wasn't established until five years after this all happened. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Even WP:USCITIES advises common sense when it comes to sports:  The city was built where it is because of the falls and the fort. To paraphrase Johnnie Cochran, "If you omit the fort, you must omit the city." -SusanLesch (talk) 23:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed first section 

message: Two Indigenous nations inhabited the area now called Minneapolis. Archaeologists have evidence to say at least since 1000 A.D., they are the Dakota (one half of the Sioux nation), and, after the 1700s, the Ojibwe (also known as Chippewa, members of the Anishinaabe nations). Dakota people have different stories to explain their creation. One widely accepted story says the Dakota emerged from Bdóte, the confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi rivers. Dakota are the only inhabitants of the Minneapolis area who claimed no other land; they have no traditions of having immigrated. In 1680, cleric Louis Hennepin, who was probably the first European to see the Minneapolis waterfall the Dakota people call Owámniyomni, renamed it the Falls of St. Anthony of Padua for his patron saint. In the Dakota language, the city's name is Bde Óta Othúŋwe ('Many Lakes Town').
Purchasing most of modern-day Minneapolis, Zebulon Pike made the 1805 Treaty of St. Peter with the Dakota. Pike bought a  strip of land—coinciding with the sacred place of Dakota origin—on the Mississippi south of Saint Anthony Falls, with the agreement the US would build a military fort and trading post there and the Dakota would retain their land use rights. In 1819, the US Army built Fort Snelling to direct Native American trade away from British-Canadian traders, and to deter warring between the Dakota and Ojibwe in northern Minnesota. The fort attracted traders, settlers, and merchants, spurring growth in the surrounding region. Agents of the St. Peters Indian Agency at the fort enforced the US policy of assimilating Native Americans into mainstream American society, asking them to give up subsistence hunting and cultivate the land. Missionaries encouraged Native Americans to convert from their religion to Christianity.
Under pressure from US officials in a series of treaties, the Dakota ceded their land—which they consider to be living (a relative, and not property)—first to the east and then to the west of the Mississippi, the river that runs through Minneapolis. Dakota leaders twice refused to sign the next treaty until they were paid for the previous one.In the space of sixty years, the US had seized all of Dakota land. In the decades following these treaty signings, the federal US government rarely honored their terms. After closing in 1858, the University of Minnesota was revived using land taken from the Dakota people under the Morrill Land-Grant Acts in 1862.
At the beginning of the American Civil War, annuity payments owed in June 1862 to the Dakota by treaty were late, causing acute hunger among the Dakota. Facing starvation a faction of the Dakota declared war in August and killed settlers. Serving without any prior military experience, US commander Henry Sibley had raw recruits, among them the only mounted troops were volunteers from Minneapolis and Saint Paul with no military experience. The war went on for six weeks in the Minnesota River valley. Some terrified American settlers traveled  away from the massacre to Minneapolis for safety. After a US kangaroo court, 38 Dakota men died by hanging as ordered by Abraham Lincoln. The army marched 1,700 non-hostile Dakota men, women, children, and elders  to a concentration camp at Fort Snelling. Minneapolitans reportedly threatened more than once to attack the camp. In 1863, the US "abrogated and annulled" all treaties with the Dakota. With Governor Alexander Ramsey calling for their extermination, most Dakota were exiled from Minnesota.
While the Dakota were being expelled, Franklin Steele laid claim to the east bank of Saint Anthony Falls, and John H. Stevens built a home on the west bank. Residents had divergent ideas on names for their community. In 1852, Charles Hoag proposed combining the Dakota word for 'water' (mni) with the Greek word for 'city' (), yielding Minneapolis. In 1851 after a meeting of the Minnesota Territorial Legislature, leaders of east bank St. Anthony lost their bid to move the capital from Saint Paul. In a close vote, Saint Paul and Stillwater agreed to divide federal funding: Saint Paul would be the capital, while Stillwater would build the prison. The St. Anthony contingent eventually won the state university. Courtesy Star Tribune and the Minnesota Legislative Reference Library, in   In 1855 with a charter from the legislature, Steele and associates opened the first bridge across the Mississippi; the toll bridge cost pedestrians three cents . In 1856, the territorial legislature authorized Minneapolis as a town on the Mississippi's west bank. Minneapolis was incorporated as a city in 1867, and in 1872, it merged with St. Anthony.
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-SusanLesch (talk) 18:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the edits. I think you can add a sentence about Gideon Pond, or the missionary Pond Brothers, helping Dakota leader Cloud Man to establish his Euro-style agricultural village Heyatae Othunwe info here next to Bde Maka Ska as a specific example after these paragraphs: "Agents of the St. Peters Indian Agency at the fort enforced the US policy of assimilating Native Americans into mainstream American society, asking them to give up subsistence hunting and cultivate the land.[19] Missionaries encouraged Native Americans to convert from their religion to Christianity.[19]"  oncamera  (talk page) 19:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What a relief, thank you! Do you prefer the Pond brothers be mentioned in the first section, or are they all right where they are now, in Education? I was reading about the school at Lake Harriet yesterday. After the 1837 treaty, the school only got five to eight students because so many Mdewakanton were upset that the US sent their money to the missionaries. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: How about I expand the education section with this?  Only problem there is that Wikipedia seems to almost ignore the Dakota, don't you think? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the treaty. I believe Wikipedia skipped it. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Swapped the proposed cuts in to History, and cited a new sentence in Education (where there was more room). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

text: *Removed though it is pertinent. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:16, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

text: The site of Minneapolis was originally part of the Fort Snelling military reservation. John H. Stevens was the first civilian given permission by the Fort to build a house on the site that would become Minneapolis. It's not comparable to the Statue of Liberty.  oncamera  (talk page) 20:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So all this Indian history occurred at Fort Snelling, prior to the establishment of Minneapolis in 1867.  Then why is it necessary to include five whopping paragraphs about something that happened prior to the establishment of the city, and which is covered by another article about the place that existed here before?  In other words, if A lasted from 1700 to 1900, and B lasted from 1901 to 2024, you wouldn't add five paragraphs about A, to B's article. All these details about stuff that happened at Fort Snelling--prior to the establishment of Minneapolis--should be cut, and readers directed to the appropriate article. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't exaggerate. I cut more than a kilobyte out of the first section. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Also, the Minnesota historical society calls it a concentration camp in their website about the Dakota war of 1862: "The concentration camp at Fort Snelling was not a death camp, and Dakota people were not systematically exterminated there. The camp was, however, a part of the genocidal policies pursued against Indigenous people throughout the US. Colonists and soldiers hunted down and killed Dakota people, abused them physically and mentally, imprisoned them, and subjected them to a campaign calculated to make them stop being Dakota." The image used on Wikipedia of the concentration camp is captioned as such on that article as well.  oncamera  (talk page) 22:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So add this WP:CFORK to the Fort Snelling article, not here.  Minneapolis wasn't established until five years after this all happened. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Even WP:USCITIES advises common sense when it comes to sports:  The city was built where it is because of the falls and the fort. To paraphrase Johnnie Cochran, "If you omit the fort, you must omit the city." -SusanLesch (talk) 23:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dakota homeland, city founded 

message: , would you mind checking for instances of "tribe" in the article? There are two, both written before you told us about WP:Indigenous. The second one about the pharmacy and "federally recognized tribes" might be OK, but I'm not sure about the US government term. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:32, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The one with "Dakota tribes" can be changed to "Dakota bands" if you want to update it. The other is fine as it's the government term.  oncamera  (talk page) 19:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: . Thank you! -SusanLesch (talk) 20:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, , regarding the Social tensions section. Is "native" in the phrase "taught native traditions to children" correct terminology? Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed it to "taught Native American traditions to children" so that it's clearer on the meaning.  oncamera  (talk page) 23:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. The Dakota people are now in two paragraphs of History. I only trimmed about two sentences. I looked around and can't find another city in Wikipedia that acknowledges its Indigenous past for more than about three sentences. A sorry state of affairs. If you can figure out a better plan for Minneapolis would you implement it? For an easy example, if a paragraph break makes a difference, it should go in. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate the work you've done to the page, it looks good to me.  oncamera  (talk page) 23:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, . Our FAR reviewer has other ideas about writing (I for one think that topic sentences and transitions can be very important, especially to unify facts like the History section). I think the topic of the second paragraph,  should be more prominent. Do you think that sentence could move, either to the end of the first para, or to the beginning of the second? I'll look for a good citation. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's sourced now. I'll ask where the reviewer would like it. Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology 

message: Without tax increment financing, neighborhood orgs are in trouble. This not a "super specific" handful of problem northeast neighborhoods as you wrote in your edit summary. Southwest Voices quotes the former leader of Kingfield (a southwest neighborhood): . I'd like to see you use that article from SWVoices and develop a sentence as good as the one you removed. Can you please work on that? I agree that Susan Du's article was only reporting narrow events and agree it should be dropped. SWVoices was cleared at WP:RSN only for subject matter expertise. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point -- I'll look at sentence with a larger scope and put a draft in. Is  the article you're talking about? Malvoliox (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Wonderful! Yes, sorry, this article at SWVoices. (Notice that we don't need a delimiter inside an HTML link between URL and title.) Thanks a bunch. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  The phrase "an equity-focused lens" sounds like Minneapolis talking, good job. I think you can add in the possibility of mergers somewhere around "struggled with operations". (I guess Wikipedia calls HTML links "external links", my bad.) -SusanLesch (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: ? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a phrase about "struggled with operations or merged with other organizations - Malvoliox (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, makes sense now. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to neighborhood association mergers 

message: Good morning @susanlesch, I have some bandwidth this next month and am wondering if you have anything you want added or improved to the demographics or government sections of the article. Much thanks. Svenskbygderna (talk) 14:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Svenskbygderna. Nice to hear from you, and lucky us to have some of your time.
* First in Climate, we need sources for  I asked the weather WikiProject but didn't hear back.
* Second, we have a FAR review underway by . She appears to want to give this article a clearcut. You and I have gone back and forth before about what is essential in Demographics, so I am certain you can help. If you're feeling brave, please make any cuts you wish. (I can't promise not to revert, especially if it looks like we lost information that explains a people's situation.) Same for Government. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

text: *I encourage some to WP:BEBOLD in cutting information, but also to revert if there is something you think should be in the article, as long as a discussion about the revert is posted below. Z1720 (talk) 21:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Peter, thanks, it's always alarming to see a real user name on Wikipedia (only kidding). The entire Structural racism section will move from History to Demographics. Waiting briefly for Z1720's OK, but we can proceed boldly. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter, we're ready. Z1720 likes the plan. Cutting words (moving to other sections or other articles) is our goal. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions for revisions on demographics or government 

message: Per Z1720, a list of changes for our records. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes on changes