Talk:Sephardic Jews

message: In 1999 SHAS, the party which represents non-Ashkenazi Jews, i.e. Mizrahi + Sephardi, polled 430,000 votes. Given the fact that some of the Sephardi Jews vote for the Likud Party also and that they tend to have more children than the Ashkenazim, the number of Sephardi Jews stated in the article is grossly under-estimated. The fact the Labour Party - a stronghold of the liberal-letist Ashkenazi elite - has been in power continuously from 1948 to 1977 and mostly out of power since then is partly a result of the change in demographics (apart from the influx of former Soviet Jews, of which 15-20% were non Ashkenazim from Central Asia). There is also no inclusion of the 20,000 Iranian Jews.
Petruclej (talk) 19:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Sephardi Jews 

message: :Copied from user's talk pages
DOB is fine... please bear in mind that the images will line up differently on different peoples computers. 9 images might look ok on your screen but it might look out of alignment for somebody else.--Dr who1975 (talk) 19:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Dr who1975! Thanks for your note. Hadn't thought of that... Do you think a solution just as the one that was found for Portuguese people is a good idea? I'll work on it and propose it. Thank! The Ogre (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The image you sent me from the portuguese page is actually very common. If you look at pages such as African American, Italians, Irish American and Jew you'll see that arrangement. I wouldnb't say it's universal as pages like Irish people, Italian American, and Ashkenazi Jews don't have it but still... it's very common.--Dr who1975 (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello again! Following your last note, I have uploaded to the commons the image you can see below. I'm putting it in the article. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 21:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It's not copirighted - check the page at the commons! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 21:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Probably! I wouldn't know. Notice however that this article is about Sephardi strictu senso, which does not include Mizrahi. Ovadia Yosef is, I belive, an Iraqi Jew, is he not? And Amar is the present Sephardi Chief Rabi in Israel, is he not? And he is listed as being Sephardi, not Mizrahi, in List of Sephardi Jews, even if he comes, or his family, from Morroco - where a lot of Iberian Jews took refuge. When I made this image my intention was not to present a final, authoritative, list of Sephardi Jews - I just wanted to improve on the format problems that the presence of several different images provoked, and to introduce some simetry - in the number os pictures (there where only seven before) and in the the profile of people pictured (that is why I introduced a modern non-religious intelectual and a modern rabi). Do you see my point? Of course an open discussion can be put forward regarding who should be pictured. I believe some principles should prevail: historical diversity, religious / non-religious diversity, national diversity, professional diversity, gender diversity. In a word: diversity. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 15:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no requirement that the most famous individuals have to be pictured. I know less about the history of Sephardic Jewry than either of you so I can’t argue as to any individuals authenticity as a Sephardic Jew. Just a note: are we sure the page is only about people with a Sephardic heritage. I could make an argument that a Rabbi who was not born Sephardic but contributed greatly to Sephardic tradition could indeed make them a de facto Sephardic Jew (my first point overrides the necessity for any such person to be pictured). If I moved to a Sephardic temple and identified myself as one I certainly wouldn’t want someone telling me I wasn’t one.--Dr who1975 (talk) 16:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that this article is about ethnic Sephardi and not liturgycal Sephardi (as it is stated in the Definition). The Ogre (talk) 17:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Once again, you may be right in all acounts! That distinctions may be "artificial", as you say, but it is still there - and I understood this to be the article about Sephardim strictu senso - this was not my choice! The article was already that as a result of previous discussions, I suppose. Notice that there is an article about the Mizrahi Jews (and that, as all categories, including Ashkenazi, may be an artificial category!). If this article is about both Sephardi strictu senso and Mizrahi then we have unbalanced articles. And, even if distinctions may be somewhat artificial, I do believe that there were some differences between Jews originating in the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain) and Jews who already resided in North African and Middle East countries before the expulsion from Iberia. And do notice that many Sephardi did not go to the Islamic world but to France, the Netherlands, and the Americas (namely the US and Brazil) - see Spanish and Portuguese Jews. If some of the people now pictured are not Sephardi strictu senso please say so (is that what you are saying about Paula Abdul?). And, again, if you want to propose other peolple, please do so! But I ask you to make a list of people for whom a free non-copyrighted image can be found. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's impoortant to show people like Paula Abdul and Hank Azaria because they buck Stereotypes.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

text: By the way, should Cecil B. DeMille even be here? Yes, his mother was a Sephardi, but was he a Sephardi, or just someone of partial Sephardi ancestry? I mean, did he identify as a Jew (whatever the sense) and specifically a Sephardi? The Ogre (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This image of his grave site tends to indicate that he did not identify as a Jew .--Ѕandahl 19:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's clearly debatable... I don't see a problem with it since Sephardi judiasm is also a heritage.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but if someone, independent of heritage, clearly states, "I am not a Jew", then that person should not be pushed to the front row. The Ogre (talk) 23:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're the one who put the final image together. Change it. Are you looking for suggestions?--Dr who1975 (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: David Ricardo looks like a good possibility. Admittedly, he became a Unitarian but unlike DeMille, both his parent's were Sephardic. His picture is also public domain. It'd be nice to replace DeMille with a 20th century figure but choices are limited.--Dr who1975 (talk) 14:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Emma Lazarus and Benjamin Cardozo are good possibilities and both images are public domain.--Ѕandahl 19:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Oh! And I'm removinc Cecil B. DeMille because of doubts regarding his ethnic affiliation - if there are any doubts then it's best no to present him in the front row of Sephardim....! The Ogre (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also  there is Bernard Baruch, Sephardi mother,  Ashkenazi father, contemporary figure. Available image is PD.--Ѕandahl 22:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, didn't see you message Ѕandahl! And had already done the new picture, it's the one below and on the article (I changed the previous version in the Commons).
thumb|center|600px
It includes:
*Maimonides - Al Andalus rabbi, physician, and philosopher
*Isaac Abrabanel - Portuguese statesman, philosopher, Bible commentator.
*Baruch Spinoza - Dutch philosopher
*David Nieto - Haham of the Spanish and Portuguese Jewish community in London
*Daniel Mendoza - English prizefighter
*David Ricardo - British political economist
*Moses Montefiore - British financier, stockbroker, philanthropist and Sheriff of London
*Benjamin Disraeli - British politician
*Sabato Morais - United States rabbi
*Emma Lazarus - United States poet
*Benjamin N. Cardozo - United States judge
*David de Sola Pool - United States rabbi
*Basil Henriques - British philanthropist
*Pierre Mendès-France - French politician
*Sam Costa - British radio personality
*Jacques Derrida - French philosopher
*Shlomo Amar - Israeli rabbi
*Hank Azaria - United States actor
Okay. I'm getting sick and tired of these stupid pictures of Jews. What the hell are these sad , dull pictures? LOL Is this how we Jews are gonna honor our achievements? I'm a Jew from an Ashkenazi mother and Scots-Irish backround from my father. And I gotta say that I'm not proud of the current Wikipedia pictures. So I've already layed down the foundation from some acceptable Jewish figures. I want the American Jewish ethnicity to AMAZE. When I'm gonna go on Wikipedia and see the people we represent -- everybody should be like WOWWW. How can such a small nation REPRESENT SO MUCH GOOD, COLOR, SO MUCH LIGHT, SO MUCH BLESSINGS.Even more from a minority group within Judaism like the Sephardim(Only 2 million Sephardim and yet so much power) I want our achievements to be  A SLAP IN THE FACE to all the ignorant people out there. You know what the Talmud says my dear Jews  Success is the greatest revenge but I can't do this by myself. Because I don't know how to get the damn authorization for the pictures . I'M PRETTY SURE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF YOU IN HERE HAS THE ABILITY TO DO IT. TAKE YOUR TIME MY FELLOWS. BUT ONE THING FOR SURE , TWO THINGS FOR CERTAIN -- THE CURRENT JEWISH PICTURES ARE UNACCEPTABLE IN RELEVANCE TO THE AMOUNT OF CONTRIBUTIONS WE REPRESENT IN the WORLD. 
SO HERE IS  MY LIST. = )
I hope it's to everyones liking! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I miss Paula Abdul--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wel... yes, and I do admit there aren't that many women in the ensemble, however I did leave her out because there are some doubts if she is a Shepardi or a Mizrahi, being from Syria she could be either. The Ogre (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The image of Eli Cohen is non-free like many others.--Ѕandahl 16:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardi Jews - 9 images 

message: Well... I'll try do some new version, including Ricardo, Lazarus and Cardoso. Regarding Petruclej proposals:
*Rabi Ovadia - Iraqui Mizrahim
*Enrico Macias - Algerian Sephardi - no picture available
*Yehoram Gaon - Israli Sephardi - no picture available
*Ofra Haza - Yemenite Mizrahim
*Elias Canetti - Bulgaria Sephardi - picture available - will do
*Siegfried Sassoon - Baghdadi Mizrahim
*Carl Djerassi - mother Austrian Ashkenazi and father Bulgarian Sephardi - no picture available
*Edmond Safra - Lebanese Sephardi - no picture available
*Emma Lazarus and Benjamin Cardozo - ok as said above
So, I'm doing a new version with some more people. Then you'll let me know what you think. See you soon. The Ogre (talk) 21:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh! And I'm removinc Cecil B. DeMille because of doubts regarding his ethnic affiliation - if there are any doubts then it's best no to present him in the front row of Sephardim....! The Ogre (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also  there is Bernard Baruch, Sephardi mother,  Ashkenazi father, contemporary figure. Available image is PD.--Ѕandahl 22:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, didn't see you message Ѕandahl! And had already done the new picture, it's the one below and on the article (I changed the previous version in the Commons).
thumb|center|600px
It includes:
*Maimonides - Al Andalus rabbi, physician, and philosopher
*Isaac Abrabanel - Portuguese statesman, philosopher, Bible commentator.
*Baruch Spinoza - Dutch philosopher
*David Nieto - Haham of the Spanish and Portuguese Jewish community in London
*Daniel Mendoza - English prizefighter
*David Ricardo - British political economist
*Moses Montefiore - British financier, stockbroker, philanthropist and Sheriff of London
*Benjamin Disraeli - British politician
*Sabato Morais - United States rabbi
*Emma Lazarus - United States poet
*Benjamin N. Cardozo - United States judge
*David de Sola Pool - United States rabbi
*Basil Henriques - British philanthropist
*Pierre Mendès-France - French politician
*Sam Costa - British radio personality
*Jacques Derrida - French philosopher
*Shlomo Amar - Israeli rabbi
*Hank Azaria - United States actor
Okay. I'm getting sick and tired of these stupid pictures of Jews. What the hell are these sad , dull pictures? LOL Is this how we Jews are gonna honor our achievements? I'm a Jew from an Ashkenazi mother and Scots-Irish backround from my father. And I gotta say that I'm not proud of the current Wikipedia pictures. So I've already layed down the foundation from some acceptable Jewish figures. I want the American Jewish ethnicity to AMAZE. When I'm gonna go on Wikipedia and see the people we represent -- everybody should be like WOWWW. How can such a small nation REPRESENT SO MUCH GOOD, COLOR, SO MUCH LIGHT, SO MUCH BLESSINGS.Even more from a minority group within Judaism like the Sephardim(Only 2 million Sephardim and yet so much power) I want our achievements to be  A SLAP IN THE FACE to all the ignorant people out there. You know what the Talmud says my dear Jews  Success is the greatest revenge but I can't do this by myself. Because I don't know how to get the damn authorization for the pictures . I'M PRETTY SURE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF YOU IN HERE HAS THE ABILITY TO DO IT. TAKE YOUR TIME MY FELLOWS. BUT ONE THING FOR SURE , TWO THINGS FOR CERTAIN -- THE CURRENT JEWISH PICTURES ARE UNACCEPTABLE IN RELEVANCE TO THE AMOUNT OF CONTRIBUTIONS WE REPRESENT IN the WORLD. 
SO HERE IS  MY LIST. = )
I hope it's to everyones liking! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I miss Paula Abdul--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wel... yes, and I do admit there aren't that many women in the ensemble, however I did leave her out because there are some doubts if she is a Shepardi or a Mizrahi, being from Syria she could be either. The Ogre (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The image of Eli Cohen is non-free like many others.--Ѕandahl 16:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal - 18 pictures 

message: That's an interesting "omission" by the Free Encylopedia.
J.D.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.28.112 (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not one mention of the 1066 massacres of Jews in Granada (and others in Spain) by Moslems 

message: 1. "Without Walls" keeps inserting a paragraph speculating about Iranian influence on the Jews of Sardis, and claiming that the Sephardim are in fact descended from these.  First, this is an article about Spanish Jews, not about the intellectual origins of Judaism in general, so this is completely irrelevant. Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence for this claim of descent, except the name.  Yes, it is always possible, as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".  But an encyclopaedia is meant to be about facts that are verifiable; not claims that may or may not be true but about which there is no evidence one way or the other.  Nothing is more common in the history of ethnic groups than for a name for one place or tribe to be applied centuries later to a completely different place or tribe for contemporary reasons: that does not imply any link.  For example, the Avesta speaks of a tribe "sairima" (Sarmatians), and the Shah Nameh applies the derived name "Salm" to European peoples generally.  Is that really evidence that all European peoples are descended from the Sarmatians?  Or that the Iberians of Spain are really descended from the Iberians of the Caucasus?  Or that the American State of Georgia is populated by Georgians from the Caucasus?
The fact that the name "Sepharad" may have originally referred to Sardis is worth mentioning in itself.  But it is already there in an earlier paragraph, on Definition.  That is not justification for including a disquisition on the Jews of Sardis (if indeed there were any).  Similarly medieval rabbis used "Zarephath" for France, though in the original Biblical context it almost certainly meant "Sarepta" near Sidon.  Does that mean that the French Jews are descended from ancient Jewish communities of the Lebanon, or that the article should discuss the influence of ancient Phoenicia on Judaism as a whole?
2. Secondly, he keeps inserting a paragraph on the legislation of Ezra as a precursor to the Visigothic laws against the Jews, and justifies this by pointing out that Christianity is built on Judaism.  Again, that is not relevant to the subject of this article, which is about Spanish Jews, not the whole comparative history of the two religions.  Also, the analogy is misconceived.  The people against whom Ezra was legislating were claiming to be part of the Jewish community, and Ezra was trying to exclude them and impose permanent separation.  The Jews in Visigothic Spain had no wish to be Christians, but the legislation was trying forcibly to include them in the Christian community, by banning Jewish practices and placing practising Jews under severe disabilities (including temporary separation) until they conformed.  That both sets of legislation included a bar on intermarriage does not affect the fact that the fundamental object was different.  Judaism, unlike Christianity, has no mission to convert the heathen. 
In short, these insertions are both unsourced and irrelevant, and I shall continue to revert them whenever they are made. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Without walls"'s revisions 

message: The article says some 500 Jews live currently in Portugal. However, this number is totally at odds with the most recent Portuguese census (2001), where 1773 persons identified themselves as Jews. Note that, according to Portuguese law, the question on religion was not asked to anyone under 15 (which limited it to 84% of the population) and respondents could decline to answer (8% did). This allows us to put the Portuguese Jewish community undoubtly above 2000 people. I wonder if the data presented by the American Jewish Year Book (the source used in this article) is based on Synagogue attendance...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gazilion (talk • contribs) 10:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous figure (1773) was obtained adding the results from the 7 regional census. A separate document (http://www.ine.pt/ngt_server/attachfileu.jsp?look_parentBoui=380027&att_display=n&att_download=y, page 216) yields a slightly different number (1740), and indicates an estimate for the entire population: a little over 2500. Gazilion (talk) 11:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews currently in Portugal 

message: There is a significant Jewish population in Serbia also, quite larger than in sorrounding Balkan states. In Belgrade, Novi Sad and Subotica there are more Jews than in FYR Macedonia or Bosnia and Herzegovina.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colossus1167 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction 

message: hello, I just changed the figure in the infobox for Sephardim in Morocco from 5,500 to 2-3,000. My reasoning: there are today around 4,000-5,000 Jews in Morocco (the figure might have been 5,500 a decade ago), but not all of them are Sephardic. Sephardim have been always the small but influent upper class of Moroccan Jews, the rest being Arabic-speaking and Berber-speaking Jews, who do not identify as Sephardim. In Israel, the latter are called Mizrahim, and the definition of Sephardim in this article clearly distinguishes both groups (also commonly all western Mizrahim Jews are called Sephardim as opposed to Ashkenazim, but this use is not proposed nor followed in the present WP:article). So, although we do not know, how many of the Jews living in Morocco are Sephardim, it cannot be all of them (although maybe a majority, as mostly lower classes emigrated to Israel). 2-3,000 is of course an OR estimation, but it's not worse than the unsourced 5,500 figure, which cannot refer to Sephardim in the last decade.
The same is true for Tunisia: there cannot be 2,000 Sephardim, if the modern figure for Tunisian Jews is around 1,500 and although there are in fact Sephardim in Tunisia, besides the Mizrahim, any figure is just a guess. Let's put 1,000. 
As for Portugal, I put the official estimation given in the Census of Portugal of 2003 suggested by Gazilion (see above). The census number is around 1.700, but an official estimation is added, which gives 2.500. At least one sourced figure!--Ilyacadiz (talk) 18:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ilyacadiz, I do not agree, this kind of original assertions are being heard from people with very clear racist POV against North African Jews (I'm not blaming you to be one, just trying to explain were these falsely notions usually came from). That is to say, one of the most common same line assertions that are used to excuse why North African Jews are very successful in Europe while they had hard time in Israel is that the "Elite" or North African Jewery immigrated to Europe instead of Israel. This is of course harshly falsely: about 400 thousnds North Africans have immigrated to Europe and 600 thousnds to Israel. Meaning that at the least 40% of North African Jewery have immigrated to Europe. I have never heard on an "elite" group that contain 40% of the population. There is no one single source that can objectively support such groundless assertions.
As for the origin of Maroccan Jews. The Spanish government guided the Spanish Ministry of the Interior  that Jews of Northen African origin (besides Egyptian and probably Lybian Jews)have to prove that they lived in Spain 5 years and not 10 to be eligible to a Spanish citizenship. That is, the Spanish authorities consider any Northen African Jew to be descended from Sephardim. Berber Jews are only consist 1-2% of North African Jewery. The reason for which Maroccan Jews from Northen Marocco better preserved Ladino is simply because Northen Marocco is closer to Spain and its non Jewish ethnic composition is different and include many non Arabic inhabitants. In many essences Jewery of North Afirca was established after the explusion of Sephardic Jews (even Lybia Jewery was strongly affected, for instance, the renewer of Halactik life in Lybia was the great Sephardic Rabbincal scholastic and Kabbalist Rabbi Shimon Lavy who was  expelled from Spain). Also, genetic research strongly support for no difference between Northen Maroccans and rest Jewery of Marroco.
--Gilisa (talk) 12:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardim in Morocco 

message: I found it a bit bothering that there is not even one Sepharadic Nobel winner in the Mosaic. I think we must change it (let's agree on about adding at least two). Here are few possible suggestions:
1. Baruj Benacerraf
2. Elias Canetti (*)
3. Claude Cohen-Tannoudji
4. Rita Levi-Montalcini
5. Salvador Luria
6. Emilio G. Segrè
7. Franco Modigliani
(*)photo is needed
--Gilisa (talk) 10:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No Nobel winners? What's more pressing is why there is just one woman? Chesdovi (talk) 12:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't notice that because I was focused on this issue (in compare to other photoboxes). These both issues are pressing. We should add Rita Levi-Montalcini and another one or two Nobek winners (Claude Cohen-Tannoudji and Baruj Benacerraf are my favorits). Besideds we should include additional 2-3 women. To do that we have to add a line to the Mosaic as I found no one that I want out of it as it's.--Gilisa (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What about Niels Bohr? His mother was Sephardim. 2600:387:F:581A:0:0:0:3 (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: These posts from 14 years ago are irrelevant because the mosaic was removed. Largoplazo (talk) 22:06, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Nobel winners in the mosaic 

message: Not that I'm unsympathetic, but isn't a phrase like "The best we can perhaps hope for", used in the article with reference to survival of dialects, against Wikipedia style? - Jmabel | Talk 16:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A majority of the Iberian Jews chose to become conversos. Some must have decided to actually convert - it is improbable that all wanted to remain secret Jews. So the suggestion that it was only for "historical reasons and circumstances" that many never returned to the faith must be false. As genuine Catholics they did not remain Jews "hidden ever since the Inquisition".Royalcourtier (talk) 07:53, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Strictly speaking we do not know how much Jews lived in Spain, how much were expelled, how much chose to convert. We have widely different estimations. So maybe a majority chose to become converses, and this is the opinion of many experts, and maybe no according to others. It's not like they had a statistical office or polls at the time. Benjil (talk) 06:31, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: In Peru most of it's 3000 jews are ashkenazim, not sephardim.--Enkiduk (talk) 17:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peru 

message: I took the following sentence off from the section on Medical Genetics:
"See also Jewish Genetics Center about testing."
'''
Looked like an advertisement for some Non-Profit in Chicago.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
PhnxFyreG (talk) 03:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advertising? 

message: In the infobox it claims that the number of Sephardi Jews in various countries is unknown due to "abuse of the term". This strikes me as potentially violating NPOV. At the very least, it requires some clarification. How is the term abused? By whom? Who considers it abused, and why? Are there any estimates despite such "abuse"? Are there people there who claim to be Sephardi and are not?--in that case they would need to at least be mentioned. --N-k (talk) 13:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one has answered my question, I am changing the phrase "number unknown due to abuse of the term" to "number unknown". If anyone has any better ideas, please post them here. --N-k (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Okay, but if you want to make that claim in the article you need reliable sources. Additionally, the word "abuse" (when dealing with words and names) is very strong and subjective. --N-k (talk) 15:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a great source for this in the book "Sacred treasure the Cairo Genizah" by Mark Glickman p15-17. Feeling lazy and not quite in the mood to add it in myself. Acidskater (talk) 03:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Abuse of the term"? 

message: "Sepharad" is the Hebrew word for "Hesperia", which Romans used as "Hispania". Both words were used to name the Iberian Peninsula during the Roman Empire. We could say "Sepharad" is literaly "Spain".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.110 (talk) 02:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sepharad - Biblic place? 

message: Ekarfi13 keeps changing the sentence Moroccan and other North African Jews are sometimes known as "Maghrebim", and are closely associated with the Sephardim proper to Moroccan and other North African Jews (which are sometimes known as "Maghrebim") are closely associated with the Sephardim proper
This is clearly incorrect grammar; as Ekarfi13 is obviously not a native English speaker, I don't expect him to know that, but I'm not clear why he keeps reverting to his ungrammatical version. I've now changed it to Moroccan and other North African Jews (sometimes known as "Maghrebi Jews") are closely associated with the Sephardim proper 
because I think Ekarfi13 was very concerned about ensuring the material was in parentheses.  Can he explain his edits? Jayjg (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As a side note, I think it is best to use parenthesis rarely.  Either the point is important enough to be actually in a sentence or it is unimportant and can be safely removed. --Bruce Hall (talk) 02:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect grammar 

message: Speaking of parenthesis, the opening sentence has a very long parenthetical language comment, so long that the actual sentence gets lost. I had a hard time finding it.  Can we shorten the language bit or move it to someplace else?  Maybe I can see what I can do. --Bruce Hall (talk) 02:11, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite the opening sentence? 

message: The infobox has an area for "significant populations". For some reason, an editor keeps adding all sorts of countries to it, so that "significant populations" include as few as 20 people, perhaps five families. In addition, this makes the infobox very long - with all those countries added, it covers the lede, table of contents, and three more sections! Even worse, none of it is sourced - in part, no doubt, because of the differing definitions of what a "Sephardi Jew" is (the primary question being does one include Mizrahi Jews). What constitutes a "significant population", and how many countries should be added? Jayjg (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Significant populations" in infobox 

message: __meco (talk) 17:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related category nominated at CFD 

message: I uploaded another mosaic since the other one was deleted for CR issues. It's totally discussable if anyone want to discuss it, please do it here. - Dzlinker (talk) 23:07, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox mosaic 

message: Many surnames no discution as Sephardi surnames as Maimon, Levi, Peretz, Leyva, Pazmiño, Paniagua, Toledano, Carvajal, Mizrahi, Sason, Sosa, Tinajero or Chaves Shavetz (son of Shaul, hijo de Saul), this surnames are 100% sephardis.--Marrovi (talk) 17:21, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not re-add without specific sources for each name.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:29, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Marrovi, the source needs to state specifically that a name is a sephardi name. Pardo is not only a sephardi name, non-sephardi families have the name too. Levi is also not only a sephardi name, other Jewish groups also use the name Levi. You need to use sources that explicitly state the information you wish to represent, it is not enough that it can be surmised.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:41, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

text: You can claim that all you like, but it does not make it so.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:52, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardi surmames 

message: Can anyone provide any actual evidence for the use of "Sephardim Tehorim" to distinguish Hispanic Sephardim from Oriental communities following the same rite? So far as I know it is a very recent usage inspired by identity politics.
There is a historic use of the initials "samech, tet" following proper names, particularly in book titles and on tombstones. It is not even unanimously agreed that this does stand for "Sephardi Tahor" (another possibility is "sofo tov"); and if it does, the meaning is probably that there is no admixture of Ashkenazi descent (or, on one theory, that the family were pure practising Jews and not converts to Christianity). Is there any historic source that uses it to focus on the Sephardi/Mizrahi distinction? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 15:50, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Marc Shapiro discusses it at http://seforim.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/marc-shapiro-what-do-adon-olam-and-mean.html and certainly opts for the "sofo tov" theory, with the support of at least two major Sephardi rabbis. And even when discussing the "Sephardi Tahor" theory that he rejects, he only referred to the "as opposed to part- Ashkenazim" and "as opposed to converts" interpretations. The "as opposed to Mizrahim" interpretation is not even mentioned as worthy of discussion. Conclusion: it is an ex-parrot. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:47, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardim Tehorim 

message: "Ferdinand and Isabella" after "Crown of Castille" FOR CLARITY; 
Change references from "Christian" to "Roman Catholic" FOR CLARITY especially from THIS END OF THE HISTORICAL TELESCOPE since the PROTESTANT REFORMATION had NO IMPACT on Spain (except to inflict the Roman Catholic Spanish Inquisition, again, courtesy of Ferdinand and Isabella, upon Spaniards, especially Jews, Moors, alleged herectics and dissidents) RE: PEACE OF AUGSBURG 1555 et cetera at http://www.history.com/topics/reformation and elsewhere.  
Also A GENERAL CONTEXTUAL GRAFF SHOULD BE ADDED that it was the same Ferdinand and Isabella, the "Crown of Castille," who at the same historical moment -- indeed an authentic historical singularity -- sent Cristobal Colon packing to the Asian Indies (1492, ocean blue et cetera) whereupon Colon's journey to China was interrupted when Colon stumbled upon a new world where he promptly started killing all the Indians and bringing lotsa gold back to the "Crown of Castille."  (WHO is TRYING to HIDE the IDENTITY here and for WHAT REASON?)
This broad historical moment -- indeed, this historical singularity -- when, in addition to Colon sailing the ocean blue due to Ferdinand and Isabella, and brutal repression and enslavement BY ROMAN CATHOLICS (not "Christians" which tars and feathers ALL Christians including the Eastern Orthodox -- via this generality) of Jews and Moors and dissidents also by Ferdinand and Isabella and the burning of humans in city squares -- this historic singularity included Shakespeare and Elizabeth I in England, Martin Luther and Charles V in Germany, corrupt Popes in Rome, loss of the Spanish Armada against England by a freak storm in 1488, the Portuguese breakthrough around the Cape of Good Hope and the beginning of the kidnapping of Africans, again first by the Portuguese, to turn said kidnapped Africans into slaves)].
One odd thought:  Was there NO HISTORY AT ALL of MALAGA -- or Spain --- between the 1704 Naval battle and the 1936 Franco Fascist rebellion against the duly constituted Republic of Spain? 
Regarding FRANCOIST SPAIN:  The fascist forces commanded by Gen. Francisco Franco, like the Crown of Castille, unleashed a bloody and brutal oppression, repression and "DISAPPEAREDS" (a practice that also showed up for some reason in South America!) that did not end until 1975 or really until the global Spanish poet Federico Garcia Lorca was fully rehabilitated in 1983-84 with publication of uncensored works, including his "Sonnets of Dark Love."  Lorca, an authentic artistic GENIUS and POLYMATH and opponent of fascism, was assassinated by Franco forces early in the civil war in 1936. 
Other than that, it is fine -- but I still do not understand the "protected status" unless this article has been the repeated target of multiple anti-Jewish changes or if it is someone abusing editorial access, then that person should be dealt with in a specific way -- not by GROUP PUNISHMENT -- which was outlawed by the Nuremberg War Crime Tribunals but, alas, still employed by state and non-state fascist regimes around the world -- including high school principals ;)
best,
-- thomas a prentice phd
Thom Prentice (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Just wanted to point the previous editor to WP:SHOUT, without any commentary as to the proposal. Debresser (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 17 September 2016 

message: The recent edit changing the number of Jews in Algeria from 2,000 to 200 leaves us with three problems:
# the order is now no longer of declining numbers;
# 200 is not enough for inclusion in the list to start with;
# but the main problem is, as I pointed out long ago, that there are no sources for either opinion, so we can't decide which is correct. Debresser (talk) 21:03, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: The article claims that 20% of Spaniards and a somewhat lower percentage of Spanish-speakers in the New World are of "Sephardic origin".
What on earth does this mean? We are not talking about small pockets of conversos that kept strict endogamy and are therefore "Sephardim" in the full sense, but about the general population. After five centuries of breeding, I would be very surprised if there were any Spaniards who did not have at least some Sephardic (and Moorish) blood; but in most cases it will represent a very small percentage of the ancestry of any given individual. Just as with Ashkenazim, where (on one theory) 99% may have Khazar descent but most of them are no more than 1% Khazar.
Do we mean that 20% of the gene pool is derived from Sephardim, regardless of its distribution among individuals? Maybe, but that's a totally different proposition and needs scientific evidence. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:05, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Then let's say that. The passage as it stands is meaningless. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 17:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: "Sephardic origins"

message: As a linguist by profession it bothers me to see talk of Sephardic “languages”. Judezmo or Ladino are varieties of Castilian (in the 16th century renamed Spanish). They are dialects, though that term unfortunately has derogatory overtones. They are much closer to Spanish than Yiddish is to German.
A test of whether you’re dealing with different languages is whether speakers of each can understand and communicate with each other. Somebody speaking Ladino as spoken in Israel today can communicate with a speaker of modern standard Spanish without much trouble. If you know modern Spanish, listen to the samples of ladino at http://www.sephardicstudies.org/quickladino.html
This is speculation, but I don’t think speakers of Ladino would at any time have said that they had created or were speaking a new language of their own. They were speaking the same language they spoke in Iberia in the 15th century. They didn’t call themselves Ladino speakers, in fact they never, to my knowledge, used the term themselves before the twentieth century.
If someone is going to get bent out of shape if I change “languages” to “dialects” or “varieties”, please let me know now. Thank you. deisenbe (talk) 12:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There is really no scientific criterion for distinguishing between a difference in dialects and a difference in languages, beyond the old saying that a language is a dialect with an army and navy. Moldovan is almost identical to Romanian but is treated as a separate language because it is spoken in a separate state and has sometimes been written with a different script: similarly Serbian and Croatian, or Hindi and Urdu. Speakers of Judaeo-Spanish certainly regarded themselves as speaking "Spanish" while it was still the dominant language, just as Americans regard themselves as speaking "English"; and if it were spoken in an area within Spain it would certainly count as no more than a dialect. But today they certainly regard it as a separate language, however close it is to Castilian. This is an area where perception is all. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardim’s “languages” 

message: Why in the predefinition do not the Sephardic Jews of Brazil appear? Ricardo Ferreira de Oliveira (talk) 00:58, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Jews currently in Brazil

message: I'm clearly ignorant of Jewish history, but I wonder if it might be useful to include some information about how Jews came to BE in Iberia in the first place, so as to later be called Sephardi(c) Jews after they left (and/or while they lived there)? I did follow through to Jewish ethnic divisions, and then on to Jewish diaspora, but I wonder if a little of that kind of information couldn't be included in the lead? UnderEducatedGeezer (talk) 01:22, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  No discussion of the ORIGINAL presence of Jews in Iberia? 

message: When the above says this article is of interest to WikiProject Judaism, it says it is rated as B class High Importance, but should it be rated as Top Importance for this particular WikiProject? Vorbee (talk) 10:57, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Top Importance or High Importance

message: First Sentence:
"Sephardi Jews ... originally from Sepharad, Spain, or Portugal, are a Jewish ethnic division."
Issue:
Hoping to address the "Sepharad" bit, all the details of which can be found on the Sepharad wiki page. However, quoting directly from that page, the relevant bits are that:
"Sepharad ... is a biblical place name of uncertain location. It is mentioned only once in the Bible ...
Since the late Roman period, Spanish Jews gave the name 'Sepharad' to the Iberian peninsula. The descendants of Iberian Jews refer to themselves as Sephardi Jews ... and identify Spain as 'Sepharad' in modern Hebrew."
The primary issue is that "Sepharad ... is a biblical place name of uncertain location. It is mentioned only once in the Bible ..." and therefore at the very least it's grossly misleading. There a few more subtle things which could be changed, e.g.:
* They're originally from Iberia is more accurate than "Spain or Portugal"
* ("Sepharad, Spain, or Portugal" implies mutual exclusivity; it seems akin to "LA or California")
Hoping to change the first sentence to "Sephardi Jews ... originally from the Iberian peninsula, are a Jewish ethnic division." Then later, to add that the name derives from Sepharad, a biblical ... . Sephardic Jews were named (named themselves?) on the belief that the biblical Sepharad was in Iberia. However, this is disputed...
Anyway, intend to point out the error since most sources I can find claim there's no consensus, including the contradicting Wiki page. However, the writing and details are up to you!
Avi Feher Sternlieb (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Sentence Incorrect: Sepharad 

message: The numbers in the column are a joke based on nothing but some article which itself has no serious source. There are no 300,000 Sefaradim in the USA for example that's absurd. And even for Israel the number is not clear because there is no clear distinction there between sefaradim and "mizrahim". Better to erase it or put something more serious. 109.186.86.184 (talk) 06:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidence? The Banner talk 11:08, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics of Sephardi Jews 

message: In this article you can read: '"Sephardi are not to be confused with Jews living in the Crown of Aragon. These are known as Judeo-Catalan and didn’t consider themselves as part of the Sephardic tradition."'
That claim is totally wrong. The Jewish people with Aragonese, Balearic, Valencian and Catalonian origins are Sephardic Jews like each other.
In fact, there are no conclusive evidences about the survival of "Judaeo-Catalan" language after the Alhambra Decree which expelled the Jews from Spain. 
You can read about it even in the Wikipedia article about that language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaeo-Catalan
The Jews with Catalonian (an the rest of peoples of Crown of Aragon) origins were as Sephardic as the rest of Jews from Iberian Peninsula. In fact even the Portugese Jews were considered Sephardic Jews.
After expulsion, the Iberian Jews abandoned their regional dialects and languages to adopt the "Ladino" (or Judaeo-Espanol). 
Please, I request that the phrase "Sephardi are not to be confused with Jews living in the Crown of Aragon. These are known as Judeo-Catalan and didn’t consider themselves as part of the Sephardic tradition" be deleted.
It's wrong. It isn't true. Honestly.
I'm not sure, but I think that false assertion has been writen by some kind of political activist. 
Best regards. 
Stephen Strange (talk) 19:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if it was true, it still wouldn't belong in the lead. M.Bitton (talk) 19:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Jews with origins in Crown of Aragon (mainly Catalonia) don't belong to Sephardic tradition? 

message: The numbers and the source in the Infobox have been changed here, but from what I can tell, the new source is questionable (written by a journalist) and the numbers given are off. I suggest we use this reliable source (which is edited Arnold Dashefsky, Sergio Della Pergola and Ira Sheskin) if only to exclude the numbers that are way off (e.g. you cannot have 5,000 Sephardi Jews living in a country while its total Jewish population does not exceed 1,000). M.Bitton (talk) 23:41, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  April 2021 

message: :Talk:Ilhan_Omar#RFC has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Benevolent human (talk) 00:40, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Talk:Ilhan_Omar#RFC]] has an [[WP:RFC|RFC]]

message: The population of Sephardi Jews in Belgium, 700,000,000, is higher than the actual population, which is around 12 million AbyssalAxolotlAlto (talk) 08:27, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for bringing some vandalism to our attention. I have corrected it. The Banner talk 09:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Belgium Population Is Higher Than Possible 

message: I don’t know exactly how many Sephardic Jews live in Israel, but it is less than 1.5 quintilllion. If someone knows more about it then please change this Thegiantemerald (talk) 09:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population in Israel 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sephardi Jews →  – Going by Google Ngrams, , in recent decades "Sephardic Jews" is as much as nearly five times as frequently found in Google's British English book corpus as "Sephardi Jews", and  ranges from four to 20 times as frequent in US English (albeit with a really sharp decline from 1960 through the present). Those ratios on their own seem to make a rather striking case, at least for starters, that "Sephardic Jews" is the WP:COMMONNAME. (Oddly, Google Ngrams finds the reverse situation with "Ashkenazic Jews" versus "Ashkenazi Jews".) Largoplazo (talk) 21:33, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 28 November 2022 

message: https://esefarad.com/sobre-los-apellidos-hispanos-de-origen-judio-sefardita/ Xx236 (talk) 13:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sobre los Apellidos Hispanos de Origen Judío Sefardita 

message: ===History===
*Jews in Muslim Iberia 4 refereces, 3 of them in one paragraph.
*After the Reconquista 2 references in one phrase
*In the Age of Discoveries 4 references
*The Holocaust 1 reference
*Later history and culture 3 references
Xx236 (talk) 08:01, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poorly sourced 

message: *Jews in Muslim Iberia 4 refereces, 3 of them in one paragraph.
*After the Reconquista 2 references in one phrase
*In the Age of Discoveries 4 references
*The Holocaust 1 reference
*Later history and culture 3 references
Xx236 (talk) 08:01, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: 2 references Xx236 (talk) 08:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Language

message: Unsourced. A similar section about families is sourced.Xx236 (talk) 08:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Leading Sephardi rabbis

message: No writer is mentioned, no text. Xx236 (talk) 08:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literature about 'galut' only 

message: Did the Sephardim historically speak Hebrew, or was its use limited to liturgical contexts? The article lists Hebrew under "Languages: Traditional" but does not specify the context in which it was used. If the Sephardim used Hebrew as a vernacular, please forgive my ignorance and ignore this. Otherwise, could somebody please clarify this matter? Conocephalus (talk) 23:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It was used liturgically. I've clarified that in the infobox. Largoplazo (talk) 07:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew as a Traditional Language of the Sephardim 

message: Did the Sephardim in Curaçao traditionally speak the Sephardic ethnolect of Papiamento? If so, should "Judaeo-Papiamento" be listed among the traditional languages? Conocephalus (talk) 17:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judaeo-Papiamento?