Talk:Death 'n' roll

message: Should the rock project be added here? or not? −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  08:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rock project? 

message: Since a style nearly like death 'n' roll sure is present among a black metal style, I think the genre can well be classified as the same thing like "black 'n' roll" or "blackened rock" or there may be something else that can be used to define it. Leaving it as "black metal" just seems kind of strange to me. Come to think of it, I think "deathened rock" may be more correct but we already have deathrock... so we can't really use that. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  08:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the name of that section to "Parallel With Black Metal". I didn't put another name, because this movement hasn't got a real name. For example: Fenriz called it Evil Rock. Kommander L., unic member of an underground band (called "Fuck Off And Die"), said:``F.O.A.D. is a blasting black'n'roll metal band with some old school black metal, crust and thrash influences. The principle font of inspiration of the band is all kind of alcohol. Nothing else to say. Listen to the music.`` Another possibly name is Black Thrash, like the Aura Noir album "Black Thrash Attack". Other name was proposed by the wikipedia time ago (Blackened Thrash), but was erased because that name was never used before the creation of the article. Surprisly, the name have been very used on many websites after the existance of that article (search blackened thrash on google and you will see the  multiple results). All that is the reason of the title of the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsalazar23491 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Black metal" topic in article 

message: Should the genre project really be added to this article? It is a term but theres no term or style projects for something like this. What project would it classify as then? Add WikiProject Genre or not? −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  08:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genre project? 

message: Death 'n' Roll could be described as Death Metal meeting NWOBHM and the "heavier" strands of Classic Rock. That considered, I think there are two bands that should be included in these article:
* Gorefest: Although their first two record were "pure" Grindcore/Death Metal, they started dabbling in classic rock since their Erase (1994) album. This trend continued on Soul Survivor (1996) and Chapter 13 (1998)   .
* Pungent Stench: this band's third release, Club Mondo Bizarre - For Members Only (1994) could also be described as Death 'n' Roll.
Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional Bands 

message: Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Links worth investigating 

message: There appears to be some confusion as to what constitutes a reliable source on this page. A few examples of things that are not: Last.fm cannot be used as a source as it is user-edited; this is what has led to Paris Hilton being at the top of their 'brutal death metal' section. This means that any claims you make, including simply "Last.fm lists the following as death 'n' roll" are worthless and inappropriate encyclopedia material. Similarly, web forums, blogs and their talkback sections, Youtube and Myspace are not considered reliable sources. Neither are wikis, including this one. Citing Metal Archives is apparently contentious. I would argue that regardless of how 'reliable' a given editor believes them to be, they are not a commercially-published third party source and hence should be avoided wherever possible. Furthermore, using MA searches for genre may well constitute original research. Finally, web-based review articles (in much the same way as print-copy fanzines) should never be used as sources, particularly over contested genres such as this one. This effectively leaves you with sites like Allmusic Guide. Not wishing to ruffle any further feathers by editing out references using inappropriate sources, I thought I'd just leave this in the talkpage. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to labour this too much, but regarding the Last.fm reference, not only is it inappropriate in the first place, but their list includes The Meteors and The Murderdolls. They are admittedly a fair way down the list but, as has been mentioned Nile are below Paris Hilton in the 'brutal death metal' tag. Oh, and equally damning, under Paris Hilton I discovered they have a tag for 'sexy'. Clearly a new musical subgenre then. For the record, I do not doubt the notability of death 'n' roll as a subgenre, but justifications from such sites is actually damaging to your cause. Oh, and saying 'other notable artists include' and plucking a bunch of names from the list is POV anyway unless you can explain why they are notable, other than to you. For instance, neither Phazm nor ZX Spectrum (the band) have Wikipedia page. ZX Spectrum don't even appear to be signed. If nothing else this should demonstrate why this source is weakening your argument, not strengthening it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A note on sources

message: What do people think would be the best way to move this section forward? It seems to me that the existence of the genre has been sourced (both from the liner notes to the Entombed compilation, not written by the band, and from secondary sources, such as magazines like Terrorizer, Metal Hammer and Kerrang!). This should settle the matter, unless the concern is that an arbitrary number of bands needs to be labelled as such for the genre to exist. The section at present is I feel unhelpful... the sources used are unreliable, as I've stated previously (I don't think this is me being a 'self-righteous guardian of Wikipedia', I'm trying to help improve the article and know that policies regarding reliability will get brought up in any Article for Deletion debate - that I don't want to see happen). In fact, I think the best way for the time being might be to remove the section full stop. It will attract people that fancy sticking an AfD on the article. Any thoughts? In the meantime, if you would like me to dig out any print resources referring to death 'n' roll as a movement within death metal, let me know and I'll see what I can do. There are, I think, problems with the other sections, but let's deal with one thing at a time. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 00:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Debate section

message: What the hell,if power metal ins't that popular you expect death metal sub-genre to be that popular lol?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.93.250 (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mainstream popularity: 	Moderate in the early-mid 1990s to today 

message: We don't seem to be making much, if any, progress here. I'd quite like to see this page get into a decent state but it looks like it'll have to be done a bit at a time. Not a bad place to start would be with the Carcass references. I dimly remember from way back when them being referred to as 'death 'n' roll in some ancient Kerrang! or similar but a Google search is turning up nothing we can use as a reliable source... mostly here, Last.fm or other mp3 sharing sites. Even Metal Archives, Allmusic and Metal Observer, for all their faults, do not use the term in relation to the band. As they're an extremely notable band, it's obviously very important we find a reference stating that this term is used in relation to them. Further to this, the section about Bill Steer's influences is irrelevant to the article, even if Carcass are included - people like Trey Azagthoth often talk about how Malmsteen et al and various classical composers are influences, but you'd never tag Morbid Angel with a neo-classical label. The entire section on Blackstar is even more irrelevant, as despite having Carcass members, they are importantly not Carcass and were playing an entirely separate kind of music (ditto for the throwaway Jeff Walker solo project comment). Obviously there are other problems that need addressing, but any thoughts on the Carcass stuff? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References v.666

message: They talk about other possible names like "blackened thrash" or "black thrash" which makes no sense.  The latter is a REAL style.  There are many black/thrash bands.  Most of the early black metal bands were black/thrash.  Bands like Desaster fit perfect into that category. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 21:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTF at black 'n' roll names 

message: My attention was brought to this article by a passing comment on an unrelated afd. I have never heard of this term before nor have I even heard the music of any of the bands mentioned. That is not going to stop me from noting that this article has some major problems. A few editors have already expressed skepticism about the validity or notability of this subject matter since it does come across strongly as a neologism. The use of the term at Encyclopaedia Metallum and Last.fm are completely irrelevent as they are unreliable sources. The staff at metal-observer.com use a lot of dubious terms such as skaldic metal and cyber metal so it's not particularly helpful here. Only the use of the term by Chad Bowar on About.com has any merit. I've removed a large amount of the article but note that I'm not the first to have done this. Blackmetalbaz had preceded me only to have his edits reverted by the one individual who seems vested in this article: Musicaindustrial. Blackmetalbaz was perfectly right and entitled to remove that sentence along with other blatant original research, including that entire section on a supposed parallel in black metal. I also removed text which use inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the point being made. For instance, the sentence "according to the All Music Guide, Death 'n' Roll albums favor verse-chorus-verse songwriting" is supported by four references but none of them even use the term death 'n' roll. There is also no reason why this article should even include a list of bands that are tagged as death 'n' roll on unreliable sources. There are still many problems with this article even after the wholesale removal of these passages. I note in particular the use of improper references to self-published sources. This includes the CD liner notes to the Entombed albums as well as the official online biography of Gorefest. Musicaindustrial, please do not revert my edit as you did Blackmetalbaz's. If you really want to improve this article, I strongly suggest you go online to search for better sources instead of adding any more original research. --Bardin (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In all fairness, I in general don't have a problem with CD liner notes. They're not really self-published in a way that is problematic to Wikipedia if they're published by the label not the band, and the notes are written by a reliable third party source. Things like liner notes can be invaluable for, say, album articles. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not have a problem with CD liner notes ordinarily but when they are being used to support an assertion of which band the term was first associated with, I think there is a problem. After all, anyone can proclaim themselves as a pioneer or the first to do something but such self-claims would not generally be treated as a reliable source here on wikipedia. Similarly, CD liner notes tend to be written by someone who has been paid by a record label and while such notes can be used as reference for many things, it pretty much fall into the same sphere of a self-published claim if used to assert something like this. In other words, it's not exactly an unbiased source. --Bardin (talk) 06:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell me something, Bardin - do you believe that "unbiased" sources of information actually exist? Check out this interesting rant on Wikipedia . "Neutrality" is a dangerous myth - go read Michel Foucault or Thomas Khun and see why. Wikipedia's NPOV policy is an extension of that fallacy. What we have here at Wikipedia is just a concensus between different points of view - that's all. No true "neutrality" to speak of - just the tyranny of majority. Musicaindustrial (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read Foucault but if you really agree with that rant, then why are you not boycotting wikipedia? This is hardly a relevant discussion anyway. Whatever faults wikipedia might have, this is not the place to discuss it. If you want to propose changes to the policies and guidelines of wikipedia, you can do that elsewhere. If Entombed were really the first band to be identified as death 'n' roll, then surely there would be some other sources out there besides the cd liner notes indicating as much. --Bardin (talk) 02:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriate citations 

message: Carcass, to my knowledge, belongs to the following categories of genres:Grindcore (goregrind), Death metal, melodic death metal, and some people see elements of thrash in their latest stuff.  On the wikipedia page for Carcass, NOT ONCE ARE THEY CALLED DEATH'N'ROLL.  Please source this, RELIABLY.  I have no doubt that this genre was "created" by music reviewers trying to sound edgy (or God forbid, they were misquoted or taken out of context.), if Carcass is included in the so-called genre.JackorKnave (talk) 08:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to remove any unsourced information from the article. --Bardin (talk) 15:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with what you did. It was bold. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 21:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Carcass?  I doubt it...

message: Seems to be a litle difficult to find any information on them, even outside Wikipedia. I googled it and the best I could find was a myspace page.  Also I think the page labelled them as death metal (dunno if that counts though).  JackorKnave (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Coffins... are they notable enough?

message: Sanctimony is another band that plays in this style now so does Deuteronomium (band). They should be mentioned in the article. Others can be found by searching death 'n' roll under genres on The Metal Archives and for the parallel black 'n' roll you could create an article about it if you get sources. Also, would I suggest a list section for this article?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.124.9.20 (talk) 07:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other bands playing the style and etc 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

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