Talk:Naeim Giladi

message: I have already found sources that indicate the man's significance to the Mizrahi and anti-Zionist communities. For example, Ella Shohat, the academic and scholar who identifies herself as an "Arab Jew" notes that "Naeim Giladi, a former Zionist activist in Iraq, gradually came to change his outlook after living in Israel, and has become an anti-Zionist activist. He left Israel in the early 80s and settled in New York, renouncing his Israeli citizenship. (From my diverse conversations with Naiem Giladi taking place in New York, in the late 80s)."
Giladi wrote a book entitled, "Ben Gurion's Scandal: How the Haganah and the Mossad Eliminated Jews" that was self-published in the US in 1992, and subsequently banned from both the US and Israel. Dandelion Books released a revised edition of the book in 2003.  The book is listed for sale at Amazon.com UK  but is listed as not available at Amazon.com in the US. 
One of his articles is cited as a source in Operation Ezra and Nehemiah on Wikipedia itself. 
I will reformulate this information and incorporate into the existing article. It should not, however, be deleted. Just because one doesn't like his views, doesn't mean he is insignificant. Tiamut 01:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This book is available from Amazon in other countries, and is recommended by them. Giladi is highly critical of the British tactics in Iraq, believing they manipulated the worsening news from Palestine to cause trouble in 1941. Later, the Zionists bombed their own people to get them to flee and populate Israel (some were also caught doing this in Egypt). He went to Israel and found it very discriminatory of "Arab Jews" like himself. PalestineRemembered 14:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: His article is not cited as a source in the Operation Ezra and Nehemiah article, it's just an external link there. okedem 10:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Zionist

message: it shouldn't be this long. one can simply link to the article. at any case, it can be quoted directly. if it's "quoted" this way, one can not report his claims as facts like it did. Cheers. Amoruso 16:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: if this is just an article

message: Amoruso, as discussed above you cannot continue inserting POV edits in an atttempt to defame Giladi. You kept resinseting the neo-Nazi link to Stormfront as evidence tha Giladi is popular among neo-Nazis. Note that WP:BLP states: "Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." Then, when that did not work you tried to insert quote from Henry Makow, which is non-sequiter, irrelevant and again included only to cast aspersions against Giladi, by associating him unrelated people with dubious views. Note that you removed the citation that linked to the site Jews Against Zionism which was teh appropriate example for those who take note of his anti-Zionists views on the basis of it being harmful to Jews, which is what the preceding sentence said. Accordingly, I have reported your actions at the Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard. Finally, while you accuse me of violating 3RR the policy is clear as regards WP:BLP, "Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Wikipedia:Libel." Please cease and desist from making these kinds of edits immediately.
:response. weird WP:POV claim by Tiamut who blanked out WP:RS sources from the article. Stormfront (website) is quoted in the wikipedia articles after many debates as the most prominent neo-nazi web-site in the world. After also pointing out this to Tiamut, it seems he's acting in bad faith in claiming it's "obscure". As for the second source, when you google Naeim Giladi one of the first and most cited sites is  Makow  a professor who has a prominent web-site regarding the conflict  and therefore relevant. and further::::Tiamut's description is faulty and does not accurately represent anything. "claim that Giladi was popular among neo-Nazis" is a false accusation by Tiamut. A featured article in the prominent web-site means his ARTICLE is a regularly quoted, not him. It has in fact nothing to do with WP:BLP. Henry Makow discusses Giladi's article DIRECTLY like explained. It again has nothing to do with WP:BLP - in fact, it's Tiamut who wants to make the page about the ISSUE and not the person , as the article really doesn't deal with the person at all but with his book/article. Finally, his last accusation trying to analyse my motives are a violation of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. The last "note" of his is also factually wrong, it was simply a double link both dealt with Jews. Amoruso 00:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Side note, I'm a she, not a he. I know you can't tell that virtually, but I prefer to be recognized by my correct gender designation. The person is notable recisely because of the controversial issues he discusses. To not address those issues would be to fail in producing an article that explains to the reader the reason for this person's notoreity. That Naeim Giladi's article was posted by a user an at open-thread on a neo-Nazi website certainly does not constitute a "featured article" nor has Amoruso provided evidence of his being "regularly quoted" at such sites. As I have pointed out in the past, the article posted at the open-thread did not garner even one comment of feedback. Further, using extremist websites to defame a person through guilt by association is deeply frowned upon in WP:BLP, a fact that AMoruso is failing to acknowledge. I made no personal attack on Amoruso and have faithfully described his actions as I see them which is not a violation of WP:AGF or WP:NPA. Finally, the quote from Makow, while in an article in which he mentions Giladi, is not related to Giladi's book, article or any of the arguments he has made; i.e. it is totally irrelevant. Tiamut 00:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Readers of this exchange can easily see who makes personal attacks, and who is doing their best to operate to WP standards. PalestineRemembered 23:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:BLP and neo-nazi links

message: I'm not sure what underlies the problem here, but it looks like Category:Iraqi Jews is a subset of Category:Mizrahi Jews and is populated with many individuals.  Please see  .  According to guidelines, it is better to use the more exact category when possible.  Maybe I,m missing some political agenda here, but it is not true that the category of IJ does not exist.  Also, incidentially I know many Jews whose families originally came from the Arab world and they usually identify themselves based on the country their family originally came from--Syria, Morocco, Egyptian, etc. rather than calling themselves "Mizrahi".  It may well be different in Israel, which may well be why Tiamut has a different preferred category.  Elizmr 23:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not any different in Israel. An Iraqi Jew would describe himself as "Iraqi". Isarig 23:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So what's the problem here, I don't get it.  Elizmr 23:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake, I thought "Iraqi Jews" wasn't a category. I had been entering it as "Iraqi Jew" and it wasn't coming up as a cat, so I changed it "Mizrahi Jews" in another article too because that refers to both Iranian and Iraqi Jews. I will accept the smaller cat, since I realize that I was wrong in thinking it did not exist. Apologies. Tiamut 19:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Tiamut, I didn't see this before.  No problem.  Thanks for explaining.  Elizmr 13:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Category: Mizrahi Jews vs. Iraqi Jews

message: The executors of the Shem Tov synagogue and other bombings in Iraq belonged to the 'al Istiqlal' Arab ultra-nationalist group, whose members were known, and who were officers in the Iraqi army using army-issue explosives. One of the injured, who died shortly thereafter, was adamant that the bombs were thrown from Arab houses across the street. They were directed at people who were lining up to register for emigration to Israel, and that's why they were targetted.
The Iraqi state covered up for this crime by executing innocent Jews. Giladi is aiding and abetting this cover-up, and his accusations are colored by the bad experiences he had in Israel in later years. He should be ashamed.
NOTE: the above comment was placed by an anon editor with the following edit summary : (cur) (last)  15:30, 13 November 2006 132.250.135.204 (Talk) (Naeim Giladi is lying) 
and later removed by editor PalestineRemembered with the following edit summary: (cur) (last)  16:41, 13 November 2006 PalestineRemembered (Talk | contribs) (rv Vandalism, breach of WP:BLP)
NOTE: the title of this section was changed for NPOV reasons.  Elizmr 00:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: It was changed to "Shem Tov synagogue bombing". It shouldn't have... claiming that someone is lying is not a violation of WP:BLP and there's no requirement for NPOV in the talk page - the user is apparently doubting the factual accuracy of the whole article, talk pages should be reverted only on rare cases. Amoruso 12:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naeim Giladi is lying 

message: Just a small note: Giladis experience in al-Mejdil fits quite well with what  Benny Morris writes about it the  book 1948 and after; Israel and the Palestinians, in the chapter: The Transfer of Al Majdal´s Remaining Arabs to Gaza, 1950. Regards, Huldra 08:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks interesting Elizmr 21:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  His experience in [[Majdal|al-Mejdil]] 

message: Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abu ali (talk • contribs) 00:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think not. It's neither disproportionate nor is it malicious. It certainly does not "overwhelm" the article. It's simply factual very well sourced and relevant information on the impact of the book/article not even the person itself. Amoruso 00:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: It is clearly guilt-by-association.  A litmus test is of whether similar statements are made in the articles of other people whose writings are also "exploited" in this fashion.  A good example is Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharett, whose diaries are quoted in lots of very unsavory places.  Try going to Moshe Sharett and listing some of the anti-semitic, neo-Nazi, and Holocaust denial sites that quote from Sharett's diaries.  You will find yourself fighting many of the same people who are so "unbiased" about wanting to make such a list here.  Actually there is one place where it would be reasonable to mention these things, if done with proper balance, and that is in articles devoted to those unsavory organizations.  Proper balance would require both Giladi and Sharett to be listed.  --Zerotalk 00:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am often in disagreement with you guys, but agree with you that this stuff should be removed.  Elizmr 19:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After a lot of thought, I too have come to the decision that unless we can find a reliable third party source that brings Giladi's use as a platform for extremists, that the information should be removed. -- Avi 19:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Note: It is definitely NOT slanderous, as it is both reliably cited and true. It is just that at current, it is not adding to the article outside of its existence. Tiamut, you should be very careful at how you throw the term "slander" around. You seem not to understand what it means! -- Avi 19:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also don't think it is slander, but it is irrelevant to the article.  Elizmr 20:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Quoting myself from my post on WP:BLP/N: I thought about it again from a more Britannica-like point of view.  Such information would belong in the article only if it were referenced by reliable sources.  Direct links to sites which misuse Giladi's writings do not fulfill that requirement.   — Athænara </font>  ✉  13:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm glad that we all agree that this info doesn't belong in the article, even if we don't all agree on why. Avi, on my use of the word "slander" - in my opinion, it is slanderous to associate a man who is a self-declared anti-racist with racist groups based on sources that do not meet WP:RS or WP:ATT. I didn't find the formulation above necessarily "slanderous", but the original formulation by Amoruso which equated the extensive use of his work by anti-Zionists with the isolated use of his work by neo-Nazis  was slanderous in my opinion and in those of others who commented in the extensive discussions above. I think we do understand what the term means, though your concern is appreciated. Tiamut 14:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Biased or malicious content

message: :Image:Naeim giladi book.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Naeim giladi book.jpg

message: Should probably include the original version of his name in its original alphabet(s).  Giladi would of course almost certainly be גלעדי, but I have no idea if "Naeim" is supposed to be Arabic or Hebrew, or how it would be spelled in either alphabet... AnonMoos (talk) 19:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Original language spelling

message: Due to the reasoning of Giladi's importance, much of his claims are discussed at more detail at History of the Jews in Iraq. Please make sure to edit in sync and (preferrably) use that article's talk page for issues relating to the bombing attacks. MiS-Saath (talk) 22:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  edit in sync 

message: Now before this pops up and we'll start to see cris-cross reverting:
* As for credibility, even Naeim Giladi himself refers to some conclusions reached by Yosef Meir.
* Unfortunately, all of his books are in hebrew. Nonetheless, there is no suitable english replacement of another historian which has actually been there when the events have taken place and that specialize in the history of the Zionist underground in Iraq. his insight into the happenings is invaluable.
* As for possible bias, In order to avoid pretense, i've clearly marked his role in the Zionist underground. Although i believe there was no need for that as his scholarly work speaks for itself, i've done so as a preventive measure.
As far as i can tell, this is the most thorough debunking of Giladi's criticism i've seen that has scholarly standard applied to it and relates directly to his allegations. It is invaluable to the article.
MiS-Saath (talk) 08:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Full citation brought. -- Avi (talk) 23:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! i'm still not proficient in using all these tags to their full extent, i admit. 132.66.201.179 (talk) 05:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits and additional material 

message: Substituted at 00:46, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: born in iran המשפחה במקור מעיראק חילה  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.192.217 (talk) 08:45, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: אירן

message: The article relies almost exlusively on Giladi's autobiography, which cannot be taken as a reliable source.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.110.58 (talk) 01:43, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreliable

message: There are dozens of articles mentioning Giladi in the 70's, mostly in connection with his role as a speaker for the Israeli Black Panthers. I found this quote interesting: "Our children are being dumbed down with the bible. We did not come to Israel for our children only to be taught Tanakh and mitzvot at the expense of other humanistic and realistic subjects" - 1977.
In an article from 1958 he describes his Zionist activity in Iran. In 1959 he joined the Communist party and hosted a rally in favoure of the Soviet union in Ashkelon. In 1969 he suggested Israel should welcome Yazidi migration and settle it along the Jordan river. In 1970, while working for the Arabic edition of HaOlam HaZeh, he published an obituary for Gamal Abdel Nasser which stirred some controversy and eventually got him fired. He then started his own (presumably shortlived) Arabic paper in Nablus. In an interview in 1978 Giladi claimed his family had "owned hundreds of thousands of dunums in Iraq and Persia".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.110.58 (talk) 02:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Experiences in Israel