Talk:Lambda Chi Alpha/Archive 1

message: I'm thinking of changing the box to this:
*Who are you? When would you change it? Why? Do you have a crucicrecent image? Vijay 23:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Box 

message: * The list of all chapters is really long. Perhaps it could be linked to at some external location? I didn't find any comprehensive list at IHQ's site, but maybe I'm missing something. The fewer lists of "all chapters" exist online, the easier it will be to keep them maintained correctly--it really ought to be done on the official LCA site. On the other hand, I think it would be good to post the unique way in which LCA Zetas are named. I could get it out of Ritual: What and why. (just 2c) -Vijay 06:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter list links 

message: I removed the quotes around “founded.” Quoting a verb in the lead paragraph of an encyclopedic article has to be bad form. I don't think there are any sources that would dispute that Cole founded LCA. Granted, a lot of work was done by others, including Mason, of course; however, they should be given their own sections, and Cole's contribution should not be limited. Is there any reason I don't understand about why Cole "founded" LCA? Vijay 23:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Paragraph 

message: From the Γ–Τ Zeta at Ohio State U.'s website, Cole resigned after allegations of "accusations of financial irregularities and alteration of official documents from some members of the Grand High Zeta." I assume this info is in the Paedegogus (but I don't have one with me). He was reinstated in '57 as a member in good standing. (No reason why is given.)
Oh, actually, their info came from  Elmhurst College's website. The material is the same.
Anyway, if someone has some more light to shed on the issue, I hope they'll add to the article. Vijay 03:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warren Cole 

message: I have put the notable alumni in more manageable categories. Some had previously been listed in multiple categories. Also, if there is no article on them, I would not recommend listing them. I think the list is now in very good condition.  LambdaChi 17:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree that each and every notable member needs to be posted here in this article. I think that a couple of highlights are sufficient, and that the list can be moved to another page. I should've posted here, first, before I made the change--I was planning on posting about the changes I made as soon as I was done. I would also like to move the list of chapters to a seperate article. It is disturbingly long, and the article suffers for it. As to the point that "every other fraternity" lists their notable memebers, I would point out that most fraternity articles are not well written. Notable members are really a very small part of what any fraternity is about, although they make good "bragging rights." The article needs a "History" section and a "North American Food Drive" badly. Right now the article is a couple of paragraphs separated by two long lists. I think that needs to be changed. Further, separating the articles will allow for a better managment of content, as the lists are the part that are most frequently updated. —Vijay 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable alumni 

message: Right now I'm working on List of notable members of Lambda Chi Alpha and List of chapters of Lambda Chi Alpha. I think that separating this content from the main article would vastly improve the quality of the article. Removing these long lists will immediately improve the flow of the content of the page. Remember, this should read like an encyclopedia--we should have mainly paragraphs of text, not simply headings, subheadings, and lists. Also, since the chapter list is updated whenever a colony is chartered or a chapter deactivates, or when someone adds a new link to a chapter website, and the notable members list gets a large amount of interest, it will aid in managing the article to have these lists separated as their own articles. Most importantly, removing the lists from the sections, and using the  template will encourage editors to contribute new information about Lambda Chi, itself, rather than focusing on individual members and chapters.
Thoughts? —Vijay 23:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: “As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries. Wikipedia is not a list repository. Lists of links, if warranted, should have their own entry: see Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) for detail. Instead of giving a list of items, the significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text.” [emphasis mine]
If there's a truly good reason to leave the 2.5 page long ~90 item notable members list or the 6 page long list of our ~300 chapters in the 3 pages of actual article that we have (including notes and references), especially when we can include a useful summary of the information and leave the full list one click away, I can't figure it out. — Vijay 04:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Copied from "Alumni": I added one good credible external link for prominent Lambda Chis, from the Notable Names Database, and I'm sure there are others. I also think it's beneficial to have them on the main page, unless it becomes way too massive, since the affiliations with the fraternity are in some ways as important as the fraternity history, etc., itself. In fact, one might say that the fraternity alumni is the single most important part of this article since all of these organizations serve pretty much the same purpose and are pretty identical in other ways. The people affiliated with them is what sets each fraterity a part, in many ways. LambdaChi 13:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: My view on this is not too strongly held.  But if you look at the other fraternity pages (and I skimmed through half a dozen or so), you'd find they all list prominent alumni on the main page.  This section of the page, to my mind, is probably the most interesting and arguably the most important on the main page.  I couldn't find any other fraternity page that didn't list prominent alumni the same way (on the main page), so I think it's ok for now.  How big is too big?  I think it's pushing the limit, and, if it grew much larger, I'd leave the current list and move those of less notoriety to the notable alumni page (and I'll add a link to the page you created where further alumni of marginal notability can be added).  Hope this sounds reasonable.  LambdaChi 07:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Sounds reasonable.  Maybe that NNDB list can serve as something of a threshold for inclusion on the main page.  The list of chapter locations looks longer (and more tedious) than the alumni list, in my view.  Anyway, look forward to seeing what you might do with it.  Thx.  LambdaChi 18:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, perhaps someone could call the national headquarters and verify the list with them?  It looks accurate to me, though, based on stuff I've seen from them through the years.  LambdaChi 21:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Since Wikipedia may not be the best place for a long list of names, I moved Headquarters' development of the list to FraternityManuals.com, I site I built and maintain. In ZAX, --jasonpearce 18:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving the lists out of the article 

message: So, what are the characteristics that distinguish Lambda Chi from the other 63 NIC members? In no particular order:
*North American Food Drive
*Open rituals
*Young for its size
*Associate Member Program
*Chapter Naming scheme (for better or worse! ;-) )
*Size, overall, both in terms of chapters and initiates
*Hazing policy
these are just a few, if others would like to contribute to this list, that would be good. I'm gonna try to make sure there's a section in the article for all of these things. — Vijay 04:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distinguishing Characteristics 

message: I think just about every Lambda Chi Alpha chapter has its own web site, or most do.  Would be a good idea to add those that can be found (I see some are already listed, which is good).  Would be good to get the rest up, in the existing chapter section format.  LambdaChi 07:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't see why not! It would also be good to periodically make sure all the listed ones are still up and in the same place. I wonder if there's a way to automate that?  — gogobera (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter web sites 

message: Should suspended chapters be listed? and the dates of suspension?
For example, the Rutgers chapter (Phi Chapter) was suspended for a certain number of years due to the alcohol poisoning death of a pledge in 1988.
72.82.192.157 19:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think suspended/closed chapters should be listed.  They are part of our history and in some cases could return. Jrssr5 19:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I second that, and think that the reason for suspension should also be listed, if it can be cited.  — gogobera (talk) 21:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suspensions 

message: Lambda Chi Alpha has 250,000 members; naturally, many of them are notable. We have created subcategories to include all men who have either received a notable award or reached a professional accomplishment.
===Examples===
* CEOs of Fortune 500 or S&P 500 companies are notable
* Politicians were become Governor, Congressman, Senator are notable
* Actors who won or were nominated for an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar are notable
* Athletes in a Hall of Fame, won a tournament (e.g. superbowl), or played for an All-Star team are notable
The challenge is not all recognizable members win notable awards and are thus difficult to classify. I propose we put these guys in a Miscellaneous subcategory. --Jasonpearce 19:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I'd add that the link you make should also point directly to the common-name page: John Quincy Doe. But, please do add the redirect. — gogobera (talk) 00:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable member research 

message: * CEOs of Fortune 500 or S&P 500 companies are notable
* Politicians were become Governor, Congressman, Senator are notable
* Actors who won or were nominated for an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar are notable
* Athletes in a Hall of Fame, won a tournament (e.g. superbowl), or played for an All-Star team are notable
The challenge is not all recognizable members win notable awards and are thus difficult to classify. I propose we put these guys in a Miscellaneous subcategory. --Jasonpearce 19:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples

message: Some consistancy should be made on how notable members are listed. Here are our proposed guidelines.
====Member Names====
Example: Robert Thomas Smith II (Butler 1941)
* Please use the full first, middle, last, and suffix
* If the full name doesn't properly link to a member's more common-name entry in Wikipedia, create a redirect (#R)
:*I'd add that the link you make should also point directly to the common-name page: John Quincy Doe. But, please do add the redirect. — gogobera (talk) 00:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Style

message: Example: Robert Thomas Smith II (Butler 1941)
* Please use the full first, middle, last, and suffix
* If the full name doesn't properly link to a member's more common-name entry in Wikipedia, create a redirect (#R)
:*I'd add that the link you make should also point directly to the common-name page: John Quincy Doe. But, please do add the redirect. — gogobera (talk) 00:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Member Names

message: Is there any official guideline on this usage? It was recently "Crucicrescent" in the infobox, but was edited to the more "user friendly" version by an anon editor. I see two sides to the issue: the current phrase is much more clear, in terms of being words everyone understands; the other (crucicrescent) is a more obscure word, but describes the simbol unambiguously.
Then again, is "Crucicrescent" a real word? ... hmmmm. It's used it Ritual: What and Why, but a google search only returns LCA related hits, and the OED (my Mac OS dictionary) doesn't have it. Neither does <http://www.m-w.com>. I guess if it's not in the OED or Merriam Webster, that's reason enough for it not to be in the infobox. I think it could still be used in the article if provided with some explanation.  — gogobera (talk) 03:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cruscicresent v Cross and Crescent 

message: I noticed a huge increase lately in vandalism taking place in this article. It's coming from multiple users and often sexual in nature. You can easily tell that vandalism in this article has reached a new level, when vandals revert each others edtis. I officially applied for page protection...I hope it solves our long-term issue. Wrightchr 23:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: I just got ahold of a copy of Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities, I found that its information disagrees with mine slightly regarding figures figuring into the TKN merger. From Baird's: LCA had 78 active chapters, TKN had 37 before the merger. After the merger, the united LCA had 106 chapters. (Note, that the online source at lambdachi.org repeates my 105 chapter number. So... now what? Does someone have to count? : / )
:Answer: There were campuses that had both Lambda Chi Alpha and Theta Kappa Nu chapters (though some were closed at the time of the merger). On those campuses, the chapters had to merge into one chapter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.209.140.20 (talk • contribs) 
::Yes, my rather unclear question is about the 106 number from Baird's and the 105 number I had and that was repeated by IHQ.  — gogobera (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that I'm rereading this I'm reminded of my curiousity. What was the deal with Cole and his getting kicked out? Am I halucinating this stuff?  — gogobera (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baird's vs Paedagogus 

message: I took the chapter list off of the page because the chapter listing has it's own page. It is pointless to have the chapters lsited on this page while there is also a page for the chapters alone. Acidskater 10:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter List 

message: Taking a peak over at the NIC page, it seems that even 250K would put LCA in at #4 these days, behind SAE, Sig Chi, and Sig Phi Ep. Thoughts?  — gogobera (talk)
I agree, also KAPsi was founded in 1911 and with 105,000 members is at 17 on the list.  I edited the page to reflect that we are the youngest of the 15 largest and currently at #4.  That means we need to initate 12,000 guys this semester, so get out there and rush!Airpear 17:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third most men ever 

message: This is the discussion that has been going on in my chat page.  I believe it is more relevant here.
A lot of your recent edits are good; however, a significant number have been lifted directly from the IHQ site. As far as I'm aware, IHQ has not released this text under any licence. As such, and until we can get confirmation otherwise, I'm going to revert the edits that I believe infringe on copyright. For more information, please see wikipedia's copyright page. Feel free to continue this discussion here, rather than breaking it over onto my talk page.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by gogobera (talk • contribs).
It would help if I knew who you were.Airpear 18:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright 

message: Noticed that the coat of arms was recently deleted from Wikipedia, probably due to improper fair use abuse. I have uploaded a version I created some years ago for the Phi Tau undergrad chapter website I once maintained. Hope this helps. The page looked drepressing without it!  17:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Coat of Arms is currently be created and standardized in a vector format by the Lambda Chi Alpha Graphics Committee (made up of Alumni), helping Jason Pearce and Chris Barrick at LCA Int. HQ.  I would imagine that a .SVG file will be available when it is complete. Jeff R. 13:41, 26 April, 2007
Hopefully, it will have a black lion rampant, as the coat of arms is blazoned… — gogobera (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated NEW Coat of Arms 

message: I don't have a lot of information on this summer initiative, so what I add would not amount to much.  Does anyone think we should create a new setion regarding "True Brother" Initiative (ie the fact Impact's no longer being certified, fraternity eductation now truely lasting past the AM period, new rituals, etc.) Albert109 17:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'True Brother' Initiative 

message: I think Lambda Chi Alpha is more appropriate than just Lambda Chi.Airpear 14:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lambda Chi or Lambda Chi Alpha 

message: Would we like to see our Greek phrases written in their original polytonic greek form? Most browsers display it correctly. I'm sure some older browsers won't, but I don't have any to test with. For reference:
Λάμβδα Χῖ Ἄλφα, and Χαλεπà τà καλά. This is how Jack Mason and Warren Cole used them in our coat of arms and in letters to each other and with other brothers of the fraternity. The polytonic form of Greek was simplified to a monotonic form (fewer accents) in the ’80s, but is still used (in Greece) by some who consider the change a break with tradition. Of course, it also used by anyone studying the Ancient Greek literature our mottoes originate from.
Per Crucem Crescans and Vir Quisque Vir are Latin and, as far as I know, are correctly displayed. — gogobera (talk) 01:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Crucem Crescans and Vir Quisque Vir are correct.  Origionally for TKN it was Vir Quisque Vir Est. but the est. was dropped, because it was unneeded.  I don't think that it is necissary to add the polytonic form of the greek phrases, but I do understand your argument.  I just think it is unnecissary.Airpear 13:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding of the TKN motto, was that it would be more correctly translated as "Every man is a man." Whether "est" was dropped because it was redundant or because it was a better translation of the desired English, I do not know. — gogobera (talk) 22:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Est is not required in Latin in some circumstances.  I have forgotten the term for it, forgive me the last time I took Latin was 6 years ago.Airpear 14:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mottoes 

message: Gogo, you took out the citations I had added to the 50th ed of the paed in stead of just changing the citation to the 50th ed.  I'm going to undo and correct the changes.Airpear 14:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't do that: They are not the same book. The 50th was a major revision. The page numbers are not even similar between editions, and neither book contains all of the information that the other does. I've corrected the problem. — gogobera (talk) 15:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The places where I added information and cited to it is from the 50th ed of the paed online.  I removed any edits I had made to the 48th edition citations.Airpear 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Of course, they are. Sorry. I've grabbed a PDF of the 50th, and I'll check to see what info can be cited from it. It would be best to cite info from a source that's easilly publically available, anyway. So, well, it's more work to update the citations, but I hope it's worth it. — gogobera (talk) 13:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  48th or 50th edition citations 

message: I would really like to see us improve our ranking, but to do so we need to better format the page and include more information.  Our history is almost non existant on the page and we have very little information of substance.  I just looked at AKA's page which is up for review and they have a much fuller page.  A lising of former Grand High Alphas would be a start.  I would update the page, but I'm in the middle of moving and my history and paed are packed up.  EM1843
Having spent more time reviewing other greek organization's pages we lack a clear organization to our page.  We should begin with an introduction followed by a history page.  We need a detailed narrative of our founding and growth. The TKN merger sercion should be incorportated in to this.  I would suggest the following time periods:  Founding,  TKN Merger, Post War, Transition to Associate Membership.  We also should high light the programs we have developed in the past such as LEAP, Leadership Seminar, and now the TBI.  SigEp has a detailed description of their Balanced Man program and PIKE highlights PIKE U.  EM1843
Brothers,
I changed up the organization of the page to flow more smoothly and added some additional information from lambdachi.org's history page.  I hope that we can fill out the rest of the history section and then begin working on expanding the other sections.  I hope you all like the changes that I made.  EM1843 Airpear 17:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving our ranking 

message: The front page of the article insinuates that LCA has over 300 chapters (having chapters at over 300 schools).  Because fraternities tend to be sensitive about where they rank in terms of size (number of chapters or initiates), I think it would be best to qualify this statement, so I have added text indicating this this number (300) includes inactive chapters.  I hope everyone is okay with this. QuinnHK 21:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The front page doesn't insinate anything.  LCA does have over 300 chapters.  Further in the article there is a link to a list of chapters that describe which chapters are currently active as well as a reference for why a chapter is closed if one is available.  This list is more through than any other fraternities list. If anything the intro is not the place for a description.  Either the number should be changed (which would be inappropriate, because they are still considered chapters) or there should be no explanation.Airpear 00:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When the NIC or FLA talks about the size of fraternities, chapters generally refers only to active chapters.  Saying that LCA has over 300 chapters is misleading.  Even the LCA website (http://www.lambdachi.org/fraternity/) qualifies what they mean by 300 chapters: "...and has held subsidiaries (called chapters) at more than 300 universities." QuinnHK 19:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Chapters 

message: :Image:LCA Crucicrescent.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:LCA Crucicrescent.png 

message: According to the 2006 speech, LCA has initiated over 250,000 brothers overall, and LCA had exactly 9,982 undergraduate members.
According to Lambda Chi Alpha — General Fraternity, LCA has initiated 227,000 brothers overall, so that number is clearly outdated. It also claims 300+ chapters — a figure that certainly includes chapters that are currently inactive.
I'm not sure where to find a source that counts 190 active chapters. If that source is found, that info should be added. — gogobera (talk) 03:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Membership Stats 

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thread_title:  File:North American Food Drive.gif Nominated for speedy Deletion 

message: Per crucem crescens doesn't mean "Crescent in the Cross." It means "Growing through the cross," which could be taken as the Latin version of the Greek motto: growing through difficulties. 
According to the 1966 edition of the Paedagogus (pledge manual of fraternal education) for Lambda Chi Alpha, page 53, it says: "... the Latin motto at the top "Crescent in the Cross" applies very definitively to the crest design."  So at least at that time, Per Crucem Crescens was taken to mean "crescent in the cross."  The same wording is used in the 1995 Paedagogus on page 66.  Perhaps the General Fraternity has changed the translation since then. 68.9.129.203 (talk) 22:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  It doesn't mean that