Talk:Museo del Prado

message: According to the Spanish pages of the museum, la toma de fotografías y filmaciones no está permitida en las salas del Museo Nacional del Prado ("filming and photographing is not allowed").
The English pages say nothing.
This wasn't so earlier.
Flashless photography was allowed in the permanent collection.
When did this begin?
--84.20.17.84 10:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was nothing by the 30 April 2006. --84.20.17.84 11:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photographs 

message: I find this sentence to be confusing: "This "prado" (meaning meadow in Spanish) gave its name to the area (Salón del Prado, later Paseo del Prado), and later still to the Museum itself upon nationalisation." Which meadow is El Museo del Prado built in? I don't think the article ever mentions the meadow by its name. authraw 17:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Presumably it was just called "the meadow" Johnbod 14:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prado? 

message: I changed "the museum has over 8,200 paintings" (or something like that) to "about 3,000". The accession numbers go up to 7,695 (in 1996) but a) many of these are not paintings I think, and b) these include modern works no longer in the Prado collection, but the Reina Sofia etc.  The full listing in the back of: Museo del Prado, Catálogo de las pinturas, 1996, Ministerio de Educación y Cultura, Madrid, No ISBN - suggests about 3,000 paintings are counted in the Prado collection now - nearly 16 pages at 192 entries per page . Johnbod 14:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. Prado have almost 9000 paintings, but They show just 3000. The rest of the paintings are spread in many publics buildings -gobiernos civiles- along Spain. But They are part of Prado´s Heritage.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.223.168.62 (talk) 19:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No - or they would be in the complete catalogue refed above. They don't display even 3,000 in the museum itself - I would guess 1500-2000 at present. Johnbod 19:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It was quite easy to find how many paintings Prado has. According to its own web page (http://www.museodelprado.es/en/ingles/collection/description/): "The collection currently comprises around 7,600 paintings, 1,000 sculptures, 2,400 prints and 6,300 drawings, in addition to a large number of works of art and historic documents. At the present time, the Museum is displaying 1,000 works in the main building, while around 3,100 works are on temporary loan to various museums and official institutions. The remainder are in storage."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.197.38 (talk) 15:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: NOt actually what it says - 1300 on display etc. The large Museo Reina Sofia collection used to be in the Prado (largely) & the website still seems to be counting them, although the complete catalogue does not. The 1996 catalogue shows the catalogue NUMBERS for paintings go up to 7695, but the introduction explains great numbers of the paintings have been transferred to the Reina Sofia etc.  It is the same with the National Gallery and the Tate in London. I suspect the web-site person has missed this point, or there is some civil servants turf-war going on.  Johnbod (talk) 02:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Some, but certainly not all, of the Escorial paintings, are Prado loans - they don't catalogue the El Greco St Maurice for example. I think the Royal Palace is the same.  The Prado only catalogue 2 Rigauds, whereas there are more than that in the Royal Palace alone.  There is also La Granja, which has many Prado paintings.  But all these are included in the figures.  Johnbod (talk) 15:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers 

message: Dear Readers:
I'm not sure how to do this, I'm an old person on a computer and I'm not sure how to use a computer
I'm wondering if someone could tell me about a painter named Bartholome Estaban Murillo's painting
called the Immaculate Conception of de Soult.  Does anyone know how many cherubs are in the original
painting?  Can someone tell me the history of this particular painting?  
My great grandparents were from Spain my grandfather's last name was Ruiz and my grandmother's maiden
name was Prado. It has been said from older family members that my grandfather's family is related to
Picasso.   I'm retired now and have been researching my families history.  So any information re: Murillo
painting I would appreciate and about the Ruiz family or Prado families.  Please post your response
Thank you for your assistance
Kingsburybrothers  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsburybrothers (talk • contribs) 18:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot help with your query but I have posted a note to the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spain. I assume you mean the painting :Image:La Inmaculada de Soult, 1678, Bartolomé E. Murillo.jpg by Bartolomé Esteban Murillo. The page description states the image was taken by Pablo Alberto Salguero Quiles el Domingo in 2004 without flash and with a long exposure that caused some motion blur. Parts of the painting near the frame are missing from the photograph. My count of the cherubs comes to 29 (10 top left, 11 bottom, 8 right and top-right), but there may be more in the original. -84user (talk) 19:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the Prado catalogue it was painted for the church of a hospital in Seville, looted by Marshall Soult in 1813, before going to the Louvre in 1852. It was returned to Spain in 1940 under an exchange arranged by the 2 governments. Johnbod (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bartholome Estaban Murillo 

message: There’s no doubt that El Prado is one of the greatest collections of art, however claims of “greatness” and world prestige (even if sourced), are not adequate for an encyclopedia NPOV.  The content of this article is un-encyclopedic. Let’s try to be objective, and remove what is not relevant for the article. Thanks. --Karljoos (talk) 23:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: When you say "The Prado has easily the world's finest collection of Spanish painting" you are making a judgement (also an un-sourced statement). That's not encyclopdic at all!! You will never find something like it in the Britannica. Check the following articles as examples of neutral articles about museums and other art institutions: Museum of Modern Art, Louvre and Juilliard School. The importance of El Prado does not need to be highlighted in an encyclopedia... please leave such comments for touristic brochures. Cheers! --Karljoos (talk) 10:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nonsense! What do Grove Art say, I wonder? A much better standard than Britannica. I think you need to read WP:V - the statement is not my judgement, and easily varifiable, even if not currentrly referenced. Arguably it falls under Subject-specific common knowledge. Johnbod (talk) 13:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Both statements in the article are facts in terms of the guideline's definition: "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." Johnbod (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly not. "The Beatles were one of the most successful bands of the 1960s", which is a comparable statement, is also a fact. You should check out the lead para of The Beatles - a useful reminder that understating the importance of a subject is as much POV as overstating it. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral Point of View

message: I'm no art historian, and perhaps I'm just a Philistine, but is Las Meninas really the most famous painting in the museum?  Not Earthly Delights, Third of May, Adam and Eve, for example? (I guess this is "subject specific common knowledge" as mentioned above...) Adam Bishop (talk) 18:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: yes it is - it is also famously there, not somewhere else. Our article on it got 30K hits in the last 30 days, over twice what The Third of May 1808 got. I admit The Garden of Earthly Delights got 25k, but Adam & Eve got less than 2k. If you've been there, you may remember where the big crowds were standing. Johnbod (talk) 19:27, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, they were at Earthly Delights and Third of May :) (But I admit I had never even heard of Las Meninas before now, so I wasn't looking for it and I actually don't remember seeing it, although there were of course large crowds in the Velazquez rooms too.) Adam Bishop (talk) 22:38, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's probably on the cover of the guidebook... Johnbod (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, the little free one has Fra Angelico's Annunciation though. Anyway, I asked some other people what they thought the most famous work would be, and they looked at me like I was crazy... Adam Bishop (talk) 13:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Las Meninas 

message: Is it just me, or does the second paragraph of the article repeat the first with slightly different numbers. Helixer (hábleme) 02:37, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed; now fixed, I think with the correct figures. Johnbod (talk) 03:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening paragraphs 

message: (repeated from VA project talk) I have just had to gut all the collections section here (40K bites) since it seemed to be a straight lift from the museum website pages like this - courtesy of User:P. S. Burton back in 2010 - hey thanks! We will need to rewrite, and be careful about referencing, though these pages are one source - a publisher's guidebook would give a bit more independence.  I think we should only mention individual works with articles, of which there about 100 in :Category:Collections of the Museo del Prado. Hey ho. Johnbod (talk) 19:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of copyvio 

message: In September 2016 Wikimedia Foundation legal counsel shared a request from the Prado Museum for Wikipedia to remove high-quality images of public domain works for which the Prado owns the original images. A discussion began at :Commons:Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/09#September_20. The discussion is sort of ended there, but also not resolved, and is not continuing anywhere at present but might be raised again.  Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:05, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  crosspost - Image change request from the Prado Museum - Request for community input 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Does the Prado really hold the largest collection? In terms of actual numbers, figures? Both the Musée du Louvre and the Budapest Museum of Fine Arts hold particularly large collections of Italian masters as well. In the case of Budapest, these are mostly second-rate paintings, even if there are several first-rate paintings and a few undisputed masterworks too, but in effect they are more than in Vienna, Munich, Dresden, Berlin, and probably London. Anyway, are there current numbers as of 2022 for comparison? --Edelseider (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed to "one of", but yes, refs would be nice. Johnbod (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest collection of Italian masters outside Italy? 

message: Copied from my talk: 
Heya Johnbod,
just wondering why you changed my edit of the opening section of Museo del Prado to be very similar to what it was before I edited it whilst removing the copyedit tags for promotion in a subjective matter. I went back in the edit history and saw that from when Justlettersandnumbers added the tag to the current revision there have been no substantive edits to merit the tags being removed. Just a reminder that stating the Prado has one of the greatest collections of European art without providing a source is pushing up against WP:PEACOCK and maybe even WP:SOAP.   Thanks, Epikourios Alitheia talk 19:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, that's bullshit. Are you entirely serious? "stating the Prado has one of the greatest collections of European art" pretty much falls into WP:SKYISBLUE. Why don't you do something useful like looking for a source for this very basic statement? Johnbod (talk) 21:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I’m going to ping @Justlettersandnumbers (who added the tags) to ask why they did so and to serve as a third opinion. On a side note, please stop the snide comments—I’m trying to work with you to find a solution, not create more problems. Epikourios Alitheia talk 23:18, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly he's not a 3rd opinion as I reverted him too! I'll ask the relevant projects what they think. I'll copy this to the talk for context. Any more comments there.  Johnbod (talk) 01:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

text: copied section ends.
*This concerns what seems to me to be the very innocuous claim that "It is widely considered to house one of the world's finest collections of European art", which I restored, removing in the same edit the tags added by Justlettersandnumbers in this edit last month, which seemed unjustified to me. The article certainly needs better referencing in some places, and expansion on the collection. I think the buildings and the collection need disentangling in the history section, and more should probably be brought in from Spanish royal collection, which I expanded a couple of years ago.
*This article is a magnet for peacock-hunters. There is a section further up (2 in fact) disputing that Las Meninas is the best-known work in the Prado's collection, which has now been removed. Restoring that with a ref might be nice. The section above this one is probably on firmer ground in querying "the museum's fine collection of Italian masters to Spain, now the largest outside Italy." Well, I'll change that to "one of", but a ref would be good. 
*Thoughts by others on these claims would be very welcome, and good references even more so. The questions: 
**"It is widely considered to house one of the world's finest collections of European art" 
**Is the article "needlessly promotional. Needs to be rewritten as an encyclopaedia article", and also full of "peacock" as User:Justlettersandnumbers asserts?  
**Also:"The Prado, with the nearby Thyssen-Bornemisza Museum and the Museo Reina Sofía, forms Madrid's Golden Triangle of Art, which was included in the UNESCO World Heritage list in 2021." - is this true? I can't see it on the UNESCO website, nor the "tentative" one. There is a tentative one for the urban landscape of the Paseo del Prado and Retiro park, but that doesn't seem to include the buildings. Johnbod (talk) 02:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Normally the lede introduction summarises the main article. To be honest, though I have a strong interest in art and am fully aware the Prado is a major international art gallery, I would expect some sort of sourcing (reviews etc.) to back up the claim that it's "widely considered to house one of the world's finest collections of European art". It's a bold claim. Widely considered by whom? Possibly the 'Further reading' will back up some of the claims and language used in the article, but certainly for a major museum, the sourcing and referencing needs improving. Sionk (talk) 12:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputes 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Prado (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 00:02, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress