Talk:Premenstrual syndrome/Archive 1

message: The male equivalent?
GTBacchus 05:35, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The

message: I thought that there were disorders that weren't socially constructed that were shown to be affected by placebos. I'm not sure though. Anyone else know anything about this?
    Besides diabetes being affected by sugar pills I don't know. :)
82.224.165.46 09:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Placebos don't just affect Socially Constructed Disorders? 

message: PreMenstrual Syndrome... --Sparky the Seventh Chaos 00:09, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)
------------
Though you might be put off because the name sounds a little strange, IMS does indeed exist.  You can google it for information, or just reading an introductory biology textbook should explain to you the links between hormonal fluctuations and mood swings which affect 80% of men.
Input junkie 01:14, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I always thought PMS stood for... 

message: This breaks the NPOV. There should be some arguments for the existence of PMS as well as against. Purplefeltangel 04:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cultural myth" 

message: I have removed the text below as it made a lot of claims without supportive evidence:
'Almost all of symptoms associated with the menstrual cycle can be treated with Vitex. It is the single best herb for treating the many possible symptoms of PMS: cramps, flooding, headaches, depression, water retention, constipation, acne, breast tenderness, and irritability. It can help normalize irregular or scanty periods. Vitex is especially helpful for women who are coming off the birth control pill. For many women, cycles remain irregular for up to two years after stopping the pill. Vitex can greatly shorten that time and helps ease the body into regaining its own natural rhythm'
--Smallbone10 00:10, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vitex 

message: I removed the general cleanup tag at the top, and placed an advert tag above the information on herbal medications.  This is the section than needs cleanup most, although all sections could use some.
-EHB
Someone has added three references to the section on herbal treatments.  None of these references support the statement as it is written.  All sections could still use editing.
Ehb 22:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Innovative defense has a link to Premenstrual stress syndrome#PMS in jurisprudence, which does not exist. i looked in the history and didn't see anything about it. was this deleted at some point, or never put in at all, or ? --dan 02:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PMS in jurisprudence 

message: This makes no sense: "Diagnosis of PMS differentiation from clinical depression and anxiety disorders." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.187.0.165 (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing sentence 

message: The alternative views needs those citations really, I think it should be removed until then. I don't think I've seen as many on an article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.111.193.106 (talk) 02:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if it's controversial, at least in psychology. It seems to be the prevailing view in all my psychology books along with in my classes. Basically, they say PMS exists because people think it does. So if a person believes that they PMS, they do. The mind is very powerful. But there's lots arguments for and against it and the symptoms are so general it's obviously hard to tell. CerealBabyMilk 14:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up alternative views 

message: Some of the citations provided in "Alternative Views" are unhelpful.  For example, 
www.springerlink.com/index/Y120670328224U80.pdf is cited for the assertion that "It has been suggested that PMS might be a socially constructed disorder." Pasting this Springerlink citation into the browser address bar leads to the Springerlink main search page, and from that page a search for "Y120670328224U80" returns no results.  A search from the Springerlink main search page for "premenstrual" and "socially" returned one result, as follows: 
 Fluoxetine and norfluoxetine stereospecifically and selectively increase brain neurosteroid content at doses that are inactive on 5-HT reuptake
Category	Review
DOI	10.1007/s00213-005-0213-2
Journal	Psychopharmacology
Issue	Volume 186, Number 3 / June, 2006
Authors	Graziano Pinna, Erminio Costa and Alessandro Guidotti
Abstract	...However, these doses are effective in the treatment of premenstrual dysphoria, anxiety, and depression. In socially isolated mice, we tested the hypothesis that fluoxetine, norfluoxetine...
Text	PDF (241 kb)  HTML
Hence the Springerlink citation fails to give authority to support the notion that premenstrual distress is socially conditioned.  
Similarly, "Capitalizing on the Curse," Elizabeth Kissling, 2006, Lynne Rienner Publishers, is cited to prove that "Medical evidence shows that there is no difference between hormonal levels of sufferers and non-sufferers."  On its face, this needle-in-a-haystack cite to Ms. Kissling's 126-page book, without giving the page number is of limited value.  Ms. Kissling's book is a feminist critique of marketing remedies for menstrual discomfort in a way that demeans the monthly menstrual cycle, and by extension discounts women.  Ms. Kissling states in "Capitalizing" that it is an examination of literature from the point of view of Simone de Beauvoir’s existentialist feminism.  Her book makes no pretense of being a biological text, and hence is doubtful support for the claim that "medical evidence shows" anything.  Ms. Kissling's book fully accepts that women with PMS suffer.  A citation to a specific page, or better, to an actual medical source, would lend more credence to any assertion about hormonal levels. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.101.67.174 (talk) 15:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The current reference #15 (is also #16) may not be an appropriate secondary source.  Whether PMS has a strictly "biological" or "conditioned" etiology, either way it would be in the purview of psychology or biology.  Since the disciplines of psychology or biology both generally accept peer reviewed sources as the best type of source, it seems to me that it would follow that this article should carry forward that tradition and utilize secondary sources as defined by Wiki. Ehb 22:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Specific and available citations needed in "Alternative Views" 

message: I have heard it used to be both Postmenstrual and Premenstrual and actually post more often so can anyone explain this? --71.131.31.243 06:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre Vs Post

message: The Controversies section definately has some POV issues.  It seems to be pushing a some what militant feminist view. Although I can see where they might be coming from, the wording is some what inflamitory, use of weasle words is pretty previlent, and not necissarily encyclopedic in form.  thoughts? --Nitack 16:10, 07 December 2007 (EST)
</br></br>
Like most controversies, the truth is probably most likely not either/or but both.  It's most likely both true that society uses PMS to minimize women's real concerns (ie. Suzie was just having PMS on the day she expressed concern about Joe's sexual harrassment of her)...  and it's probably also true that on the day Suzie exprssed concern, she was more sensitive and more likely to express concern because she was having PMS.  But does it make Joe's sexual harrassment less disgusting and actionable?  71.161.219.201 (talk) 00:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversies Section

message: The History section needs a good editor to take a look at it.  The language is stilted and redundant. (It's massively redundant, if you compare it with the nearby sections, but just within that section there are unnecessary repetitions.)  Is anyone willing to take a crack at improving it?   WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: This talk page is a little on the long side, and it has comments that go back three or four years.  It's almost the end of the year; should we figure out how to archive the oldest stuff?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive?

message: The article says, "PMS tends to be more common among twins".  This seems to say that a person who has a twin is more likely than average to experience PMS.  Shouldn't this passage read, "The occurrence of PMS in one twin leads to a higher-than-average occurrence of PMS in the other", or something to that effect? --bdesham ★ 05:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occurrence in twins 

message: The lead claims that 14% of women stay home from school or work due to PMS.  It's not clear whether this means "at least once per cycle" or "at least once per lifetime."  The ref is in Norwegian.  If you read Norwegian, can you enlighten the rest of us?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Anyone read Norwegian?

message: Are there any reasonably reliable sources out there for diagnostic criteria?  What I specifically want to know is whether the emotional components are necessary for a PMS diagnosis.  Is a consistent cyclic pattern of, say, bloating and itchy breasts and headaches --but with no psycho-emotional changes -- good enough for a diagnosis?  (If so, then I don't get the claims that this is a made-up syndrome with no biological basis.)  On the flip side, if you throw a temper tantrum a few days before each menstrual flow, but have no other symptoms, is that good enough for a PMS diagnosis?  (If so, I begin (barely) to understand the complaints about PMS being a way of devaluing women's emotions.)
There's got to be something out there that's a little more rigorous than what this article presents at the moment.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be a good place to start -- see table 2. According to the UCSD criteria, an affective component is required. --Arcadian (talk) 06:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Diagnosis

message: The lead claims that 14% of women stay home from school or work due to PMS.  It's not clear whether this means "at least once per cycle" or "at least once per lifetime."  The ref is in Norwegian.  If you read Norwegian, can you enlighten the rest of us?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I interpret that as when they're experiencing it.—überRegenbogen (talk) 14:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So you think it means "14% of women have severe PMS."  I had assumed that it could mean "14% of women miss school or work a dozen times a year, for the 35ish years between puberty (PMS onset) and menopause (PMS end)" -- which, to be honest, seems unreasonable to me.  I think that if 14% of all women missed work every month, it would be perfectly obvious to all of us.  I wish we could actually get reliable information on this.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference mirrors pretty precisely what is stated here. A study commissioned by the manufacturer Always (product) indicates that 14% of Norwegian women between 20-35 experience menstrual pain to such a degree they are prevented from going to work/school. Typical to such questionnaires, there is nothing in the data to distinguish between "every cycle" or having experienced it at some point. Hope that helps. MURGH disc. 18:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It helps enormously, because menstrual pain is not the same as PMS.  Thank you!  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad. You're welcome. MURGH disc. 20:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Anyone read Norwegian?

message: Are there any reasonably reliable sources out there for diagnostic criteria?  What I specifically want to know is whether the emotional components are necessary for a PMS diagnosis.  Is a consistent cyclic pattern of, say, bloating and itchy breasts and headaches --but with no psycho-emotional changes -- good enough for a diagnosis?  (If so, then I don't get the claims that this is a made-up syndrome with no biological basis.)  On the flip side, if you throw a temper tantrum a few days before each menstrual flow, but have no other symptoms, is that good enough for a PMS diagnosis?  (If so, I begin (barely) to understand the complaints about PMS being a way of devaluing women's emotions.)
There's got to be something out there that's a little more rigorous than what this article presents at the moment.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be a good place to start -- see table 2. According to the UCSD criteria, an affective component is required. --Arcadian (talk) 06:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Diagnosis

message: I have created an archive of the old discussions.  I have copied back to this page all recent conversations.  In case anyone needs to know in the future, I used the Move Page method.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive

message: Hey all, I was just browsing through the this article and noticed the controversies section had some serious POV issues.  It largely asserted the view of feminist critics. (Perhaps it was largely copied from someone's gender-studies textbook or term-paper?...)  I've done a few basic fixes, but more work may still be needed.  It looks like more research and citations are needed - particularly with regard to the section on non-western views.  It seems to argue that non-westerners have a much more positive view of menstruation.  I'm not an expert on this, but from what I've heard, many traditional cultures have women completely isolated during this time.  So yeah, more work is probably needed, but at least it reads fairly NPOV now :-)
~CantBeBotheredToLogin  118.92.65.128 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV, controversies, non-western views 

message: ...Does it occur? Do mammals or even primates other than humans suffer from PMS or is it unique to our species?
76.64.150.184 (talk) 03:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Most mammals don't menstruate in the first place, making it impossible for them to experience pre-menstrual anything.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: PMS in nonhuman animals?

message: The quote "initial drug of choice for severe PMS" in reference to SSRI's isn't on the cited page. There is a reference to "First-choice agents for the treatment of PMDD" but that's for Fluoxetine, a specific SSRI. And, "first choice" is a _recommendation_ on that site, not a statistical fact.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.209.39 (talk) 19:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Drug of Choice

message: There is barely any mention of PMS resulting from somatization disorders. In somatization disorder, it often appears with other "popular" syndromes (most vague, non-objective, occurring mostly in females, and with little physiologic data). These include chronic fatigue syndrome, IBS, fibromyalgia, "sick building" syndrome (EAS), etc. The article is not neutral and is heavily geared toward physiologic causes, rather than psychologic. Considering that somatization disorder affects 2% of females (close to prevalence estimates of PMS) and is highly heritable, it should definitely be discussed in more depth.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.231.27 (talk) 03:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Somatization disorder 

message: Martin, E. 1998. Premenstrual Syndrome, Work Discipline, and Anger (pp. 221-241). In Rose Weitz (ed). The Politics of Women’s Bodies. Sexuality, Appearance and Behavior. Oxford: Oxford University Press.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.66.76.88 (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  As to who says pms increased in prevalence due to changes in work demographics etc 

message: A low-quality high-bandwidth video has been spammed to several articles; it conveys no information that belongs in this article and isn't already available in text.  Please do not reinsert it -- and definitely not in the middle of the article!  WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video 

message: In the article a citation is needed. I found this which seem to originate from the 90'ties.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/e23v14666ug54855/
Does it qualify?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by BoosterDK (talk • contribs) 10:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  PMS as a criminal defence 

message: the S is for Syndrome.. the T is for Tension
I have unfortunately been a sufferer of severe PMS and unlike my friends who suffered with just the 2 days of pre tension, it is life crippling.
Wiki should have a seperate entry for PMT - the two cannot be compared  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.175.102 (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: PMS and PMT are interchangeable terms.  You may be thinking of PMDD, which is more severe.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with WhatamIdoing Dr B2 (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  PMS is not the same as PMT 

message: I haven't read the cited article so I cannot argue with its case specifically, but as someone who's knowledgeable about PMS research and history I have to disagree with the notion that interest in PMS began to increase after its appearance in the courts.
First off, the wording just isn't informative.  I'm not certain what it means to "begin to increase."  I would think that interest presumably "began" when the first person ever became interested in it, right?  Before that person was interested, interest was at zero.  After that person was interested, interest was greater than zero.  Interest began to increase when it went from zero interest to something greater than zero.
But there's a bigger picture than the language.  Although not named as Premenstrual Tension until 1931, there were related or analogous conditions, syndromes, or symptoms that were described throughout recorded history.
Ehb (talk) 03:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes.  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).  The "history" in this article has always seemed to me to be dubious in spots, and seriously incomplete.  If you have any good sources that address this, please WP:BOLDly improve the article!  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Interest in PMS began to increase after..." 

message: Symptoms / patient questionnaire: 
Moreno, Giesel
Premenstrual Syndrome 
eMedicine Specialties > Pediatrics: Surgery > Gynecology
Premenstrual Syndrome
Clinical
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/953696-overview  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.165.11.243 (talk) 01:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  diagnostic criteria 

message: Not sure how to include the research for the following recommended changes....Premenstrual Tension (as it was known in the 1930's) was renamed premenstrual syndrome and did not get much attention until the 1980's. PMT is now considered  a subgroup of PMS in medical literature and is divided into four different subgroups. The research below should be added to the #1 for a reference. I could not find out how to do this.
Premenstrual syndrome (PMS) and Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMMD) are  a collection of physical, psychological, and emotional symptoms related to a woman's menstrual cycle.
Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2003 Aug;28 Suppl 3:39-53.
Steeleworks (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that's appropriate.  We have a separate article at Premenstrual dysphoric disorder.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further understanding of PMS 

message: The following blog post cites several sources (news article, books) that can be used to expand the content of the "Alternate Views" section, I leave it here as a reminder for myself and other people willing to expand it: PMS is social construction. Bouktin (talk) 12:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding "Alternate views" section 

message: I'm writing to let you know reference 25 which links to http://familydoctor.org/141.xml is no longer a valid link. The page has moved to http://familydoctor.org/familydoctor/en/diseases-conditions/premenstrual-syndrome-pms/treatment.html . Thank you! Usableweb (talk) 18:25, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update to reference 25 and external links