Talk:Analytical chemistry

message: F.T.I.R
Techniques
I felt the techniques section was in need of major re-factoring.  The previous collection lacked a fundamental theme and contained a large amount of unrelated specific techniques.  --qswitch426 13:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Can one really call Analytical Chemistry a true subdisipline of chemistry? Isn't all chemistry more or less by definition anlytical? Albany1976 21:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In case it's a serious question... Yes, it's really a separate subdiscipline, quite distinct from, say, synthetic chemistry (in which compounds are made) or physical chemistry (which attempts to understand the properties and reactions of chemical species).  It's true that the three are very closely connected.  Jaeger5432 | Talk 05:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subdiscipline?

message: Wow, I'm away for a week and look at all the discussion that I missed! In any case, I propose basing the definition used for the lead of the article on what the textbooks use. Some of the other definitions that have been proposed here are "too original" in my opinion to be suitable for Wikipedia, or are too abstract and general. I would take any of the Skoog definitions over any of the other proposals. However, I note that they were called "classical". Was that to imply that they are outdated in some way? I wouldn't agree, but if that is the implication, then what do the most recent and innovative textbooks say? --Itub 10:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is what NIST has to say about their Analytical Chemistry Division. --qswitch426 13:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Here is how the Analytical Chemistry Division of the American Chemical Society defines Analytical Chemistry. --qswitch426 13:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I quite like "Analytical Chemistry seeks ever improved means of measuring the chemical composition of natural and artificial materials". It stresses measurement but it limits it to the chemical composition of .. materials". BTW, in earlier discussions I should have mentioned one group that is really hot on measurement and developing new methods but are not doing analytical chemistry. They are the disappearing group of people who measure enthalpies of formation and the like. They start from pure materials so composition is not the target. --Bduke 22:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like that definition too, but perhaps there is some level of disagreement over what "composition" means. To me composition inherently includes structure. There was a point in time in analytical chemistry when composition became synonymous with percent composition. These are not the same. Percent composition asks what is it composed of and how much of each of these elements. When one elucidates the composition of material the question is exactly how is it constructed, with what materials, in what proportions, in what geometrical and spatial configuration. Percent composition is like color analysis of a painting, whereas the composition is the whole painting. How many times is C# played in a musical composition is not the same as the composition. Western music is composed of only 13 notes and their harmonics. A musicologist that studies exclusively western music will go on to study things like how they are used together to form chords and how they can be put together in time to produce a composition. I like the definition because to me the composition of material is the whole picture i.e. "the composition". As analytical chemists we elucidate the composition. Determining the percent composition is a part of that as is determining the geometrical parameters. What it is composed of is not the same as the chemical composition.--Nick Y. 21:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's some more grist for the mill. Skoog West and Holler 7th Ed ( - a good lower division book with "wet" analytical and some beginning instrumental) says that “Analytical chemistry involves separating, identifying and determining the relative amounts of the components in a sample of matter. Qualitative analysis reveals the chemical identity of the species in the sample. Quantitative analysis reveals the relative amount of one or more of these species, or analytes … a separation step is usually a necessary part of both a qualitative and a quantitative analysis.” That's not a bad definition:  what chemicals are present and how much, separations are useful to answer this question. Topics are Error analysis, Gravimetric, Titrimetric (acid/base, redox, precipitation, complex formation), Electrochemistry (potentiometry, coulometry, electrogravimetric, voltammetry), Spectroscopy (UV/Vis, fluorescence, IR absorption, atomic absorption and emission), kinetics (stop-flow), chromatography (GC, LC). Skoog, Holler and Nieman, 5th Ed ( - the upper division instrumental text)  says that analytical chemistry is “deal[ing] with methods for determining the chemical composition of samples of matter. A qualitative method yields information about the identity of atom or molecular species or the functions groups of the sample; a quantitative method in contrast provides numerical information as to the relative amount of one or more of these components.” Methods are defined as classical or instrumental. Classical methods include precipitation, extraction and distillation. Qualitative analysis includes ID by color, BP, MP, solubility, odor, optical activity, refractive index (we tend to forget about these). Quantitative methods include gravimetric and titrimetric. Instrumental methods measurement of conductivity, electrode potential, absorption and emission of light, mass-to-charge of ions. In addition to the Skoog West and Holler topics, there are mass spectrometry (in the spectroscopy section natch), surface microscopy and spectroscopy (XPS, Auger, UV PES, SIMS, LAMMA, electron microscopy, AFM, STM), and capillary electrophoresis and SFC under separations. Partial wish list for the article:  Signal and noise (shot noise, johnson noise, flicker noise, etc.), error analysis (random error, systematic error, precision vs. accuracy), Standard Addition (<-- an orphan!!!), standards in general, Izaak Kolthoff and others in the history section. That said, the article is much better than when I last saw it and has a good overall framework.  --Kkmurray 04:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The surface and imaging techniques mentioned are clearly not measuring percent composition and thus the authors must mean composition in the true sense of the word. The problem I have with limiting the definition to percent composition is that there are more and more analytical chemistry techniques that deal with structure and distributions etc.--Nick Y. 19:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with considering structure as part of the composition when you are learning something qualitative from the structure. For example, looking at the structure of materials such as glasses and polymers, or biomolecules. But I insist that measuring a precise bond length "just for the sake of structural information" is more physical chemistry than analytical chemistry. --Itub 19:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Well it looks like we are really close. Perhaps we don't need to resolve the last little bit. We agree generally that structure both microscopically (distribution) and chemically is part of composition and that determining the chemical composition of materials and more importantly developing new ways to do so is what analytical chemists do. "Analytical Chemistry seeks ever improved means of measuring the chemical composition of natural and artificial materials" is satisfactory to everyone and we all understand that composition is not percent composition but the whole picture. Where things are and how they are conformed. It is true that analytical chemistry has traditionally been more successful at determining percent composition but has evolved to address other aspects of composition. The only place we seem to disagree is about very specific examples at the edge between composition (structure) and quantum physics (structure) of molecules. This is natural. Again I would state that in this gray area it depends on your motivation. If you are interested in determining composition then it's analytical chemistry. If you are interested in the underlying quantum mechanics that dictates structure it's physical chemistry. The fact is that today's analytical chemists really aren't interested in such things at such a fine level and it becomes a moot, academic, philosophical discussion. I guess I agree with you on a practical level but not on a philosophical level. Analytical chemistry is concerned with chemical composition and there are no fundamental limitations on those interests other than being "chemical composition". Subatomic no way. Fine detail of the chemical composition determined with absolute accuracy including time dependence of the placement and bonding of every atom in a sample, a lofty goal within the scope of analytical chemistry but impractical and out of reach. Just as understanding the quantum mechanics of a protein with near absolute precision by solving its Schrodinger equation (by some successive approximation scheme of course) and being able to predict motion using a time dependent version is clearly physical chemistry, it's just not possible and somewhat irrelevant to teh evolution of p-chem at this point in time.--Nick Y. 20:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Back to the definition

message: I am interested in contributing to the article and reading through some various books. I would significantly appreciate suggestions as to what terms to look closely at to get a better grasp on analytical chemistry (techniques, tools, designs, etc.). Most intriguing to me are the miniaturization methods to get all of the techniques on the lab on a chip, but setting up ultraclean labs is also important. Personally, I cringe when I realize the fact that I know so little of the structure of materials around me. Suggestions? Happy hunting. -- kanzure 21:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to expand the traditional analytical techniques section. If you are fairly new to the field this might be a good place to contribute. I can always help clean up your contributions if you are not certain about things. It is best to bring along a reference (the book that you learned it from). If you have specific interests go ahead but make sure to reference your additions when possible.--Nick Y. 17:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nick, I have looked into Settle's 1997 Handbook of Instrumental Techniques for Analytical Chemists and have extracted a list of techniques and tools that may serve helpful in guiding content to work on: gas chromatography, high performance liquid chromatography, ion chromatography, supercritical fluid chromatography, capillary electrophoresis, planar chromatography, infrared spectrometry (dispersive and Fourier transform), Raman spectrometry, nuclear magnetic resonance spectrometry, x-ray spectrometry, atomic absorption spectrometry, inductively coupled plasma atomic emission spectrometry, inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry, atomic fluorescence spectrometry, visible/ultraviolet spectrometry, molecular fluorescence spectrometry, chemiluminescence spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, electron ionization mass spectroscopy, chemical ionization mass spectroscopy, gas chromatography mass spectrometry, fast atom bombardments mass spectroscopy, high-performance liquid chromatography mass spectroscopy, laser mass spectroscopy, amperometric techniques, voltammetric techniques, potentiometric techniques, conductiometric techniques, atomic force microscopy, scanning tunneling microscopy, Auger electron spectrometry, x-ray photon electron spectrometry, secondary ion mass spectroscopy, size exclusion chromatography, low-angle laser light scattering, light obscuration particle size techniques, pyrolysis techniques, thermal techniques, mechanical property techniques. Edit: note also that linking over to laboratory glassware is appropriate considering glass is useful medium in which to do chemical reactions. -- kanzure 05:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is obviously a lot of individual articles to build. Note, however, that at least some of the articles you have listed actually exist under other names. Be sure to look carefully for them first. For example high-performance liquid chromatography mass spectroscopy is listed under Liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry and Raman spectrometry is essentially included under Raman spectroscopy.--Nick Y. 18:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, it appears that the direction to go for this article might be to include more useful explanations of the various analytical techniques and the instruments, such as the design of the instruments and brief blurbs of the history, etc. For example, there are some great "do it yourself" articles out there on the WWW re: spectroscopy with, say, CDs. And I have just obtained this neat little analytical chemistry textbook from the local Half Price Books store. -- kanzure 15:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like things are coming along well. We need to be careful not to make this page into a list but such a list is definitely useful to analytical chemistry. --Nick Y. 17:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nick, I was thinking that it may be useful to keep the list on the page until more detail is added and we can splice it up into multiple pages and lists, otherwise the content usually does not get enough watchful eyes. -- kanzure 17:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's alright for the short term. I hope you are aware of  which probably needs a sub category "analytical chemistry techniques" or the like in which this list could effectively reside through categorizing all of the relevant pages. That way as people add a technique and think to categorize it properly the list is automatically updated. As long as your are editing apges and compiling what falls into such a category you may as well start this process.--Nick Y. 18:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Willing to help 

message: In the intention of being accurate, this article loses the proper definition. Since a separation of analytical chemistry with other  sub-disciplines of Chemistry is the purpose, the writer loses the sense of the word "ad hoc" to imply what analytical chemistry "is not"; But, when the discipline give the theoretical tools or the empirical approach, the applications are a matter of the user not of the discipline. By trying to arbitrarily put an end to the definition via the original purpose, Physics cannot touch questions of biology, because is it about physical measure, not about cell composition. Of course that rationale is wrong, because we know biophysics exist. The same with analytical chemistry. If tomorrow someone wants to put a name to a new science, like "medical analytical chemistry" or " process analytical Chemistry", then this new application become standar in our minds and what is written in the Wikipedia's Analytical Chemistry article becomes wrong or obsolete. Even the article admits a level of practical aspect of Analytical Chemistry; The point is: Only when one discipline doesn't give the proper tools or have a total new set of definitions or do not share common conceps or take a very long or impractical theoretical approach to a particular given practical
issue or technology, only then that discipline could be fairly excluded from that same practical purpose. That's not the case of Analytical Chemistry, which share same theories and concepts with Physics, Biology and Electronics, share same measurement units often and often is made with a practical purpose beforehand, like bioinformatics analytical tools, forensics, enviromental or clinical chemistry. That's why Is not long or uncommon to see the outcome of these proyects turn into a new technology. The Analytical Chemist behind them knew the practical purpose and overall picture of these proyects before doing them, this is often. You could say Computer Programming is not analytical chemistry, or why Relativity theory, or evolutionary science is not Analytical chemistry. To name the possible practical approach of analytical chemistry is another thing. Just say what Analytical Chemistry is, the diference with other science, and the terminology and approach, and let the practical aspects to the creativity of the scientist. Do not kill the tool. I'm not an Analytical Chemist by the way, this is simply my point of view. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.213.94.207 (talk • contribs).
:I am not completely certain that I fully understand but I think the discussion above on this talk page is intended to correct exactly your point of concern. That is to create a complete and self contained definition of what is analytical chemistry. What we have agreed upon thus far is "Analytical Chemistry seeks ever improved means of measuring the chemical composition of natural and artificial materials". With the important clarification that composition does not mean percent composition but rather the complete picture as to how matter is composed at the atomic/molecular level. (not composed of but composed). Your input is welcome. We had pretty much concluded our discussion and I was going to make the changes but have not gotten to it due to limited time at the moment.--Nick Y. 17:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have updated the article a bit. Definitely more work needs to be done.--Nick Y. 18:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition?

message: Perhaps the editors here will be interested in electroanalytical methods, which needs a major cleanup. --Itub 12:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Electroanalytical methods 

message: I added a bar Template:Analytical chemistry inspired by Template:Organic chemistry and made a first pass at putting concepts in. --Kkmurray 20:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Navigation bar 

message: (also posted at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Chemistry#Proposed_Infobox_chemical_analysis) Please take a look at the Proposed Infobox chemical analysis and comment in the Proposed Infobox chemical analysis talk page. This infobox would be used on analytical chemistry technique pages (e.g. those listed in Analytical chemistry:Specific Technologies and Instrumentation.  Thanks. --Kkmurray 15:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Infobox chemical analysis 

message: I made some changes to the top of the page. I did it in way too many steps, but I think the introduction reads a lot better now, and the definion of analytical chemistry has been made broader to conform with its meaning. Handschuh-talk to me 10:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Handschuh.  I guess we are back to defining Analytical Chemistry as a "study" rather than a "science".  Perhaps we can use a Schrodinger plug-in and have Analytical Chem defined as a "study" and "science" simultaneously, ala the particle/wave duality of light... --qswitch426 17:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the difference between the two is pretty sublte. Defining anything as a science sounds rather stillted to me though. Biology is the study of life, chemistry is the study of chemical proporties, composition, reactions, etc., physics is the study of matter, energy and their interactions. That all sounds fine to me, but "biology is the science of life" doesn't sound quite right to me. Just my humble opinion. Go ahead and reword it if you think there's a better way to put it. Handschuh-talk to me 00:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, I think it is OK the way it is.  Especially when you place it with the other "...is the study of".  As you can see from our previous discussion on this page, there is a slight distinction between "studying the composition" and "the science of measuring".  One places emphasis on the results and the other places emphais on the method.  But from our overall conversation, it looks like the distinction is not worth hashing over.  I don't even think the American Chemical Society nor IUPAC has a firm position on the distinction.  --qswitch426 02:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we want to use study it might be best to state "Analytical chemistry is the study of measuring the chemical composition of natural and artificial materials." Sounds kind of awkward to me. I prefer science.--Nick Y. (talk) 21:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits to top of page 

message: might help the flow. maybe after the first paragraph Emesee (talk) 19:55, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that it is an article problem, not a TOC problem. The article contains too many lists and one sentence sections and this is expanding the TOC.  --Kkmurray (talk) 22:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  righttoc? 

message: The subsection "Academic resources" contains internal links to analytical chemistry resources. This properly belongs in the "See also" section. If it is felt that academic resources are somehow distinct from other resources, perhaps it should be made a sub-subsection of "See also"? Cnilep (talk) 02:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved to See also. Vsmith (talk) 02:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic resources 

message: I'm doing some article cleanup and reorganization. Feel free to critique and/or pitch in. --Kkmurray (talk) 15:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article cleanup 

message: I've done a little bit of work in analytical chemistry and from my experience, margins of error of 30% are quite common and acceptable in this field. The lab I was working in was an accredited lab and sometimes did work for courts of law and these margins are known in this field. I was wondering if anybody thinks it's worth mentioning. Obviously, some techniques are more precise than others, but in general, compared to other fields in science and technology, this is an area where precision is not always very high (but still quite acceptable). 99.251.233.4 (talk) 00:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on Precision 

message: Page is a stub and would read better if merged into analytical chemistry. Meatsgains (talk) 01:04, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Time-resolved mass spectrometry]] 

message: Substituted at 07:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment