Talk:Hymn tune

message: One reason for a separate "hymn tune" article is to clarify the distinction between "hymn" (which means the text only) and "hymn tune".  As it is, many people who sing hymns have no idea that each traditional hymn tune has its own history, which typically involves several different hymns.  
:Excellent to have the "hymn tune" article!!!  24.7.251.127 (talk) 16:53, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what children's play-song tunes you have in mind, but I think they tend to be associated with multiple texts, too. "Twinkle, twinkle little star" is also "The alphabet song" and "Baa, baa, black sheep", and that's just the three most obvious texts in English; Mozart's variations inspired by a French text, and its use for Dutch and Hungarian Christmas songs, illustrates the tendency for simple tunes to accrete textual applications. --Haruo 08:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed. Also, if this article were incorporated into "Hymn" and the contents of each component adequately expanded, the result would be longer than a single article generally ought to be. --Haruo 23:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: This is certainly a very important point, and one not yet well addressed in this article. Indeed, this is also a reason why there should be separate articles on some of the more important hymn tunes. For example, there is an article on "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" and an article on Kipling's "Recessional", yet no article on "MELITA", to which both hymns are commonly (in UK/US and ANZAC contexts respectively) sung.  --Haruo 23:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just been listening to an audiobook by Erik Routley, and he says Luther set up having half an hour of hymn singing by the congregation in the church services, after the (Lutheran) Mass.  He also said that when Calvin got going, he permitted unison singing of the psalms ONLY, and with no accompaniment.  Also that before Calvin got going in Geneva, he had been called to a church in Strassburg which is where he learned of the congregational singing, and where he met Marot, who was versifying psalms (in French), sung to traditional (?) ballads, as more worthy entertainment in the court (royal?).  But it was an audiobook and I couldn't write the information down;  I'll have to confirm elsewhere and/or listen again.  I was surprised to learn of the interaction in Strassburg (not sure of that spelling).  Hymnlover (talk) 04:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Agreed on both points. I have just recast the "capital letters" statement in a way that I think is much closer to descriptive of the facts. The "Calvinist origin" assertion I think needs to be completely replaced, since obviously there was congregational hymn-singing in Christian worship from the earliest days—after all, the New Testament states that Jesus and his disciples sang a hymn at the end of the Last Supper before leaving for the Mount of Olives (Mark 14:26)—and since what early Calvinism is most noted for is its refusal (in contradistinction to Lutherans, Moravians and even Roman Catholics) to admit congregational hymn-singing, instead limiting song in worship to the Biblical hymns and canticles in metrical redaction. --Haruo 23:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We must bear in mind the "flexibility" in what words mean through the centuries....  The meaning of "psalm" and "hymn" have flexed over the years, in relation to congregational singing.  The citation about Jesus singing a "hymn" is translated in Strong's Corcordance (Greek lexicon Item 5215) and it indicates reference to a psalm.  I've heard the Book of Psalms referred to as the "Old Testament Hymnbook."  I've read in some Bible commentary that they think Jesus and the disciples sang a version of Psalm 118, I recall.  (If a "hymn" is limited to meaning a New Testament-based text, Jesus could not have sung a "hymn"....) Calvin allowed only the singing of psalm-based texts, and the collection of things the Calvinists sang was called a psalter, but by the definition implied in Jesus' singing a "hymn," Calvinists sang "hymns" even though the texts were specifically metrical psalms, and were called "psalms."  NOWADAYS, psalters still exist and are used in some denominations (?). But some hymnals include "psalms" in with the "hymns" (undifferentiated) as "hymns." And some hymnals have a section of (a few) psalm-based texts....  The upshot, I would say, is that congregational singing is the important aspect, no matter whether the texts are based on psalms or non-psalms.  Calvin brought singing to Calvinist congregations, even though he put stringent limits on what was okay.  And for the English speaking world, after the introduction and use of psalters for congregational singing, Isaac Watts was the one who freed up what congregational song was accepted and permitted, and out of which grew.....etc. etc.  24.7.251.127 (talk) 21:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Hymn tune article

message: I would like to suggest a revision for the first paragraph, as below.  I don't want to post it until iy either gathers a response or stands for some time, without response, on the Talk page:
Continuing:  the definition need not include a reference to singing in parallel octaves:  that is indicated in "unison singing" and is only due to the voice ranges or men and women.  Some other wording seems clearer to me:  Please see the following paragraph.  Hymnlover (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A hymn tune is a musical composition to which a hymn (text) is sung.  The tune includes a melody and a harmonization (if there is one).  Unison singing is normal, with or without accompaniment.  The harmonization is used as accompaniment, and also for part singing (by a choir).  Four part singing is the most common.
Continuing:  "Not musically literate" is a pejorative.  Can we change it???  When music was sung from handwritten manuscripts by the monks in monasteries, and used only by them in the church services ordinary people attended, it really was not available to ordinary people for them to read, or to know how to read it.  They didn't have a chance to be literate.    Isn't the point that the 16th century predated published printed music?  So ordinary people learned hymn tunes by rote.  Hymnlover (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Some Wording Changes

message: I have added to the History section, with footnotes which have involved about 12 rounds of editing due to my ineptness.  The data should check out, though.  Please consider it all.  My ineptness also includes not knowing how to sign in (my expert friend is out of town....).
Continuing:  the Wikipedia article on psalters is certainly skimpy!  I was looking for confirmation that tunes were printed in the Genevan Psalter, but.... nothing....
Continuing;  PLEASE NOTE:  The paragraph about the number of hymn tunes published needs a footnote, and undoubtedly a change in wording.  Tunes published in England and in America would include many tunes printed in both countries.  This paragraph sounds like there are 150,000+ tunes all different and unique....  Please clarify!  Hymnlover (talk) 18:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: HISTORY of tunes

message: I added some texts that have been married to DIX, and the type is red.  Someday when I understand how to change those, I will, so that they're blue like the others (??)  Or someone else can edit the change in....  Hymnlover (talk) 19:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  re color of type:

message: Psalm 100, "All People That on Earth Do Dwell," is sometimes sung to an arrangement of the calypso tune also used for the song "Kingston Town," but it's difficult to imagine any coherent merged discussion of both the poem and the tune; for better and worse, hymnology has become the study of the poems, often with little or no reference to the tunes.  
Francvs (talk) 11:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hymns Are Not Hymn Tunes 

message: Why should Hymns and hymn tunes be merged into Hymn tune? Hyacinth (talk) 08:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge: [[Hymn tune]] and [[Hymns and hymn tunes]]

message: The first musical example in the article is identified in its caption as ADESTE FIDELIS. It isn't that. It is OLD 124TH (the setting of Psalm 124 from the Genevan Psalter) if I am not very much mistaken.
72.76.3.90 (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also not a good a good example for A hymn tune, because it is a four-part setting, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  A good example for a hymn tune, sure - it's a four part homophonic setting which aligns with the caption. The relevance to the article, however, makes little sense to me, as the Psalter did not have anything but monophony.--2600:1700:4340:5200:2587:353C:F0D5:36B4 (talk) 07:25, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

text: Fixed that issue. --2600:1700:4340:5200:2587:353C:F0D5:36B4 (talk) 07:25, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mislabeled example? 

message: Maybe they only sang hymns to a set number of prelearned hymn tunes until the 16th century in Europe, but that practice was alive and well in most American churches up until the early 1800s. It is still used in Primitive Baptist hymnody. A congregation would have maybe a dozen tunes, or less, that they knew, and the preacher would "line out" the music, chanting each line out to be sung back to him (in often haphazard fashion) by the congregation to a tune of suitable meter. It was considered a great advance when tunebooks started being printed, and singing masters began going around teaching people how to read music (and schools began teaching people how to read!). This is the era the entire shape note tradition was born in, leading to the long-lived tradition of Sacred Harp singing. It is too bad there is no reference to that entire genre and tradition here. I guess technically many of the songs are odes, anthems and "vestry music", and quite a number of "camp meeting" songs, but there is certainly a relation, and certainly many hymns (although I'd venture to say that most of the songs _do_ feature refrains. Never heard anything about hymns having to lack refrains, but I'm no expert.
I'd also say that if one needs an example that the average person will understand, use "Amazing Grace". Everyone knows "Amazing Grace", but very few understand that the hymn "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound" is a century or so older than the tune New Britain. Perhaps those who sing modern hymns a lot recognize this, but most people don't. Anyway, it's a good example; the tune had nothing to do with the hymn, but they began to be used together, and were such a good match that they have become just about welded together, to the point where no-one remarks to see "instrumental versions of Amazing Grace", which doesn't actually make any sense. 
64.222.158.24 (talk) 05:46, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Singing by rote