Talk:Barghawata

message: This edit established the usage of the page as . Kindly maintain it consistently, pending a new consensus to the contrary. (That said, only the very first date on the page needs to be labelled so that we know we're not talking about  dating. The rest don't need a label at all.) — LlywelynII 01:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:ERA]]

message: *Firstly the sources about the Barghwata are scarce and incomplete. The medieval sources are biased and ideologically motivated (like all other sources about heterodox islamic movements)
*Secondly the only controversies are about their Berber origins (if they were Zanata Berbers or Masmuda Berbers or a tribal confederation of multiple Berber tribes) and their religious system (was it an amalgamation of sunni islam, shia islam, Khariji islam and Berber influences or a Berber religion influenced by islam or a pure Berber religion or a corrupted islam with no influences, etc). No Jewish claims were made about them as a whole tribe. The only jewish claims are about Tarif (or his son Salih), their ruler. This claim is based on an interpretation of twelfth and thirteenth-century accounts. These accounts were described by Iskander p:45 as, "they make increasingly polemical and some times ridiculous claims." the example he gave was "the account given in the work of an anonymous historian, in a work entitled Kitab al-istibsar fi ‘aja’ibal-amsar. The author, who appears to have lived in the mid-twelfth century, gave an account of the Barghawata which is almost entirely based upon the reports of al-Bakri and Fadl b. Mufaddal, but without most of the direct quotations of Zammur’s words. He entitles the section in which he deals with the Barghawata, ‘The Account of the Barghawata’s Apostasy’. His account of Salih b. Tarif is clearly polemical." (again the claim is about the ruler) Then he continued, "He begins by saying that he was Jewish, which had not been emphasised in previous works, (his Jewish genealogy through the line of Simeon was mentioned, although unremarked in Zammur’s account). He recounts that Salih travelled to the East and studied under Ghaylan (an accusation found in the earlier work cited by al-Bakri, of course) and learned a great deal of magic." and "It is a topos of Muslim heresiographic literature that Jews or Jewish converts to Islam lead people astray through strange beliefs and esoteric knowledge. The unknown author of this work saw fit to place Salih in that readily understood category" As you can see these accounts are highly polemical and biased. We should not use (wp:primary) these medieval works because they're not Iskandar's views. The author here is just reporting all the works that talked about these tribes (and their leader's claimed descent).
==== Misrepresentation of sources ====
 Examples
The source                                                                                        	Your misrepresentation                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     	What the source says
Devout Heretics: The Barghawata in Maghribi Historiography                                        	Ancestrally, Barghawata tribes claimed descent from Simeon son of Jacob son of Isaac.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      	p:51 "13. The fact that the Barghawati ambassador himself claims this as their sacred genealogy, combined with the other names of their leaders such as Yunus (Jonah) and al-Yasa’, or Alisha’ (Elisha), certainly makes Slousch’s (1910) argument about the ‘Jewish connection’ seem more plausible. However, this genealogy—precisely because it is a sacred genealogy—should be understood as a way of giving legitimacy to their line. Since the Jewish presence in that part of North Africa was so ancient and deeply rooted, we can understand the Barghawata’s familiarity with the names, and perhaps with some of the rituals of the Jewish residents, without postulating a genetic relationship between the beliefs of the Barghawata and those of Maghribi Jews." Here in this note the author is talking about p:42 " Tarif’s genealogy was believed to go back to Simeon, son of Jacob, son of Isaac 13"
Histoire de Casablanca, des origines à 1914                                                       	After the Arab conquest of North Africa, most African tribes abandoned Judaism for Islam. At the beginning of the 8th century (739-742), several Jewish chieftains formed a coalition led by Maysara al-Matghari in the westernmost part of North Africa, this coalition successfully defeated the Muslims and managed to form their own state on the Atlantic coast between Safi and Salé.	nothing in page 32. p:33 transl. "This Tariff is the father of Sâlih who is said to have created the doctrine of the Berghwâta. He himself had participated in the Kharejite revolt in the north of Morocco, alongside Maïsara el-Matghari, at the death of which he continued the fight in Tamesna. The chronology of events is moreover rather loose; El Bekri and Ibn Khaldoûn do not agree on the dates. there is also doubt about the origins of Tarîf; only Ibn Khaldoûn affirms it Berghwâti and Masmoudi; El Bekri says he is of Jewish descent and comes from Berbât, in the south of Spain (from where, according to him, the name of Berghwâta given later to the sectarians of Sâlih); he also reports that before entering Tamesna, "he exercised royal power among the Zenata and Zouagha".
Hébræo-Phéniciens et Judéo-Berbères: introduction à l'histoire des Juifs et du judaisme en Afrique	OUTDATED (1908)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            	OUTDATED (1908)
==== Responses ====
* I used other references, much recent than yours. And yes Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated and problematic. You mean you misrepresented recent sources and used an 1908 outdated source to push your pov? Sorry but saying that Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated and problematic is your WP:POV and no one in wikipedia or academia supports your claim. John Iskander mentions that the Barghawata claimed Israelite descent. Nope he's talking about Tarif's (and only Tarif not about the Barghawata as a whole) origin in relation to al-Bakri. What you're doing here is called quoting out of context and it's an informal fallacy. To understand the phrase you need to read the passage in its full context (from the second paragraph page:41). The author is just reporting what the four authors (Ibn Hawqal, Ibn Hazm, al-Bakri and Ibn Khaldun) wrote. Le Tourneau did not study "North African" history either, he was an Orientalist. Are you kidding me? He was a historian of Islamic civilization and North Africa.
-TheseusHeLl (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Incoherence of of your methods 

message: * I used other references, much recent than yours. And yes Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated and problematic. You mean you misrepresented recent sources and used an 1908 outdated source to push your pov? Sorry but saying that Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated and problematic is your WP:POV and no one in wikipedia or academia supports your claim. John Iskander mentions that the Barghawata claimed Israelite descent. Nope he's talking about Tarif's (and only Tarif not about the Barghawata as a whole) origin in relation to al-Bakri. What you're doing here is called quoting out of context and it's an informal fallacy. To understand the phrase you need to read the passage in its full context (from the second paragraph page:41). The author is just reporting what the four authors (Ibn Hawqal, Ibn Hazm, al-Bakri and Ibn Khaldun) wrote. Le Tourneau did not study "North African" history either, he was an Orientalist. Are you kidding me? He was a historian of Islamic civilization and North Africa.
-TheseusHeLl (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Responses 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion