Talk:Jesus/Archive 44

message: I just discovered wikinfo. Check their article on Jesus Christ. Interesting case of divergent evolution. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 23:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note to self: Wikinfo articles on controversial topics are crap. Alienus 23:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But still an interesting case of divergent evolution. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 23:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: See also Wikinfo

message: This section looks like it violates NOR.  It has only one source, ant it is a primary source.  The wording of the passage also seems highly POV. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 11:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm changing the header level, because this is one of the sections that Clinkophonist revised, and the POV language arguably comes from Clinkophonist. The source was added not by Clinkophonist but by later editors. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 14:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The Ebionites have been there for quite a while, although the reference was briefer until recently. Since the Ebionites were already there, and since a comment on the Good Article Collaboration of the Week suggested the Gnostics, we added the Gnostics and Marcionites to the article. The other point is that these aren't entirely historical. As I believe the linked pages indicate, there are neo-Ebionites and neo-Gnostics, though I don't know whether or not they identify as Christian. However, if there are also neo-Marcionites, I am not aware of them. Finally, we may need to condense the data from all of the article sections and take some of it to appropriate subpages. Jesus is starting to get a little long again. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 14:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm the one that expanded the Marcion and Ebionite sections during the GA/FA drive. The source I used was Bart Ehrman's The Lost Christianities. I added the book to the references section, but didn't include inline footnotes. The book is at work, and when I get there I can cite the page numbers from where I got the info (such as the vegetarian sentence). I also tried to focus on what their actual views were on Jesus as well, however I do believe it is beneficial to give a little bit of background on these early sects. I guess if we want to make these sections more concise, we could cut out the paragraph about the Ebionite's gospels. As for the Marcionites, it appears that most of the information that I added about how they viewed Jesus was lost (perhaps it was redundent?) But now, that whole section is basically the quote and talk about their canon.--Andrew c 15:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this information was lost when Clinkophonist merged the Gnostic and Marcionite sections. The reference SOPHIA provided on the Gnostics was also lost (I originally wrote the Gnostics paragraph based on other Wikipedia articles). The factual data added, if accurate, is valuable, but some of it belongs in other articles. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 15:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I condensed the Gnostic paragraph. I restored SOPHIA's citation, but not her quote, and moved the details of gnosis to that article. I'll let Andrew c rework the Ebionite and Marcionite sections. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 15:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are the relevant portions of Schaff on Ebionism: 2:11 §112-114. I'm not overly familar with the Ebionites or current scholarship on that subject, so this may be superfluious. --MonkeeSage 21:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ebionites 

message: I don't know whether someone has commented on this already, but here it is: for my taste the section on other's views is bloated with information on the groups themselves, e.g. Marcionites, Ebionetes etc. when this article should be about Jesus and about views on him. Wiki-linking these groups should be enough and their views only be include when being concerned with Jesus himself. Str1977 (smile back) 14:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - I think lots of detail is good, but belongs in an article on Christianity or early Christianity. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 14:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, a lot of this comes from the edits that Clinkophonist made yesterday. When I wrote the Gnostics paragraph, I only mentioned the material/spiritual duality and the importance of gnosis in one sentence: the rest was about their view of Jesus. Andrew c (I think) likewise wrote a paragraph on the Marcionites that focused on their views of Jesus, and added that the Ebionites held an adoptionist view of Jesus. The rest that is there came from Clinkophonist. I didn't remove the tangential data because I thought it should be fact-checked before we move it to other articles. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 14:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, I just think we should fact-check the tangential stuff before we move it to other articles. When I copyedited I tried to remove obvious POV language and add a few "citation needed" tags, but my copyediting was fairly light. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 15:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, part of my contributions to this section was adding the info on their different gospels. Because the bio section and intro focus almost exclusively on the 4 canonical gospels, people had discussed somehow incorporating more info from non-canonical sources. I felt that adding this info under the different sects was one way of doing it, but perhaps it takes the focus away from the main subject matter (namely Jesus).--Andrew c 15:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is probably enough just to say that these sects had holy texts beyond Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. For the Gnostics, all I said is that they wrote several texts. I would have linked this to a separate article on (all) the Gnostic texts if such an article had existed. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 15:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: PS: What I think is missing from the "Life and Teachings/Biography" section is more about the historical/cultural background than about noncannonical texts. How many people miss the point of the Good Samaritan parable because they don't know of the existing antipathy between Jews and Samaritans? How many people don't realize that Hillel the Elder expounded a version of the Golden Rule before Jesus did? Not to mention that the complex relationships between various Jewish factions and the Roman occupiers contributed to Jesus' path to the cross. Arch O. LaTalkTCF 15:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point, why don't we ask for another peer review, we need to figure out what exactly is supposed to be in this article, and at this rate, more of the article will be about a list of who believes what about Jesus than stuff that is actually about Jesus. Homestarmy 16:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that we give Andrew c a chance to rework the info on the Ebionites and Marcionites so that it focuses on their views of Jesus. Andrew's working off of Lost Christianities and will work those citations in when he gets the chance. After that, then we can request a peer review. Tomorrow, perhaps?Arch O. LaTalkTCF 16:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other ... views