Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy/Archive 25

message: I don't intend to get particularly involved in this article, but it seems to me that one significant piece of the story is missing from our article. According to Gary Younge, The Right to Be Offended, The Nation, posted February 8, 2006 (February 27, 2006 issue):
In April 2003 Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons offering a lighthearted take on the resurrection of Christ to the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten. Zieler received an e-mail from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, saying: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think they will provoke an outcry. Therefore I will not use them." … [T]he question has never been whether you draw a line under what is or isn't acceptable to publish, but where you draw it…
There is quite a bit else interesting in the Younge article; I recommend it to those working on the article. - Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is in  Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#Danish_journalistic_tradition MX44 07:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another piece of the story 

message: In light of the edit/revert war that was taken place, I've installed full protection to the article. Get an RFC on the article to get ouside views, edit warring is not conducive to building Wikipedia. NSLE (T+C) at 05:20 UTC (2006-03-15)
:Is it still the conflict wheter the image should be shown or not? --Snailwalker | talk 11:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, see: Taliban Buddha and what not as well as other related threads. Some editors are using too much fantasy (IMHO of course) to push POV MX44 12:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  by fantasy, I imagine that you mean imagination?DanielDemaret 12:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, sorry. It could be doctored sources as well ... MX44 12:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or, it could be using well cited sources. "Doctored sources"?!.. now who's engaging in "too much fantasy"! --Irishpunktom\talk 12:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protected 

message: Five arrested over London cartoons protest... could be worth an addition? CA-Bill 208.201.242.19 13:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  London Protest Update 

message: The Director of Public Prosecutors in Denmark agrees with the Local Prosecutor. They do not believe that Jyllands-Posten (editors...?) did anything criminal, you can see the reason for the prosecutors decision (in both Danish and English) here: www.rigsadvokaten.dk --Hekatombe 14:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No prosecution in this matter 

message: Given that Demaret (here has offered to restructure the article, would it now be an idea to unblock it ?  Varga Mila 11:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes please. Protecting this article is problematic in any case, because there isn't one contentious issue that can be hammered out; the lines of debate are constantly shifting. --Ashenai 11:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Cleanup / Revision 

message: Once the article is unblocked, it may be worth including a note as to the following. 
The Imam's dossier spoke about the 'general tone' in Danish politics. I don't recall if it contained a specific reference to Pia Kjærsgaard, I but suspect they would have (and rightly so, IMHO).
The UN says that Denmark violated the UN convention on racial discrimination by not vigorously pursuing a charge of racism against the leader of the Danish People’s Party, Pia Kjærsgaard, in 2003. The case itself began in 2003 when she in a letter to the editor criticised the Minister for Justice for subbmitting a proposed law against circumcision of girls to the Danish-Somalian organisation. The leader of the DPP compared it to asking pedophiles whether they objected to a ban on sex with children. http://www.jp.dk/indland/artikel:aid=3614196/
(While the logic, taken to its extreme, is not without merit, her general tone has, over the years, been extremely right wing and often racist).
I wont have time to incorporate it, but it may be worth a note.  Varga Mila 16:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While the logic, taken to its extreme, is not without merit .. Comparing Somalians to paedophiles is not without merit? --Irishpunktom\talk 17:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You're going to have to explain that, because it seems inherently racist to me. --Irishpunktom\talk 17:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The 'logic' of questioning the logic of 'asking the supporter of an act whether that act should be criminalized by law'. While PK is one of the last people in the world of whom I would submit any kind of support, I think that questioning the logic of the proposition (i.e. contentless, that is, as it stands in the preceding sentence is not without its merits.  But all this is irrelevant to the article. Varga Mila 17:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah, so what you are saying is that Danish-Somalians love female circumcision as much as paedophiles who Sexually abusing children?--Irishpunktom\talk 02:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He did not say anything about "love", please don't put words in other people's mouths. The logic of Pia K. is that you don't set the wolf to guard sheep - i.e. you don't let people who commit crimes "approve" the laws. That being said, what she says criminalizes all Somalis when she so readily imply they all object to the law, and also imply showing the law to them somehow puts the neutrality of that law into question. First off, a number of different interest groups are heard in the introductory lawmaking process ("høringer"), and secondly, as the government has shown through a number of cases, they are not afraid to go against what they have been told by such interest groups or independant experts. Taken to the extreme, she is right that wolves guarding sheep - bad idea, but applied to the case at hand she's manipulating by implying that there's something fishy when there isn't (not to mention her bad extremely taste in choice of words). Poulsen 16:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well-founded Dossier accusations - violation of convention on Racism 

message: Is a translation of the text in the middle of the cartoon's page available, say on wikisource?  If not, it should be created.  If so, lets link to it from text describing the cartoon.
Many people don't understand that this is ultimately intended to provoke discussion about the fack that Kåre Bluitgen found most Danish cartoonists feared for their lives if the illistrated a children's book about Mohammed, and tha the presentation actually included a beginning to such discussion.  JeffBurdges 17:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  translation 

message: Ce clip video me fait penser de cet article (et surtout cette page 'talk'). Rire.. Ce n'est pas si mauvais que ça mais quand même! (ie: Hanifi? Deoband?? .. dis donc! ) (sorry for not English, I better read.. write is not same). Jean-Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.123.232.194 (talk • contribs) 
:Ok, my french is not good, so can someone translate this? I think I might be missing the meaning because of grammar. Either that or there is actually missing words. --The1exile - Talk - Contribs - 18:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This video clip reminds me about this article (particularly this talk page), and it makes me laugh. It's not too bad but nevertheless, what on Earth does Hanifi or Deoband have to do with anything?! (translation by Ted 01:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jyllands-Posten Cartoon Controversy... style->ipod 

message: I'd like to change a sentence in section 4.2.2 Aniconistic traditions.
Currently it says, that Sunnis have split on the issue of aniconism, though Sunnis
generally consider any pictorial representation of Muhammad blasphemous.
I consider that undisputed, since I've listed various sources,
which support my claim and nobody could cite any religious authority which disagrees. Raphael1 12:47, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sunnis aniconistic traditions 

message: Talk moved to Talk:Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy/Arguments/Image-Display#Copyright_infringement where it belongs. Netscott 19:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright infringement 

message: I intended to keep out of this discussion for a week,  but this was too big an event to leave out.
I put this into the timeline:
The Swedish Foreign Minister Leila Freiwalds resigned today. There was indirect attempt at censoring a website from displaying the cartoons in the middle of February by a civil servant of the foreign department, which she denied any knowledge of. When it became clear that she was fully aware of the incident, the press pressured the government so far that she decided to resign. According to "regeringsformen", a part of the swedish constitution, the government is not allowed to interfere with the freedom of the press.
.
There is a bit more to it than this, but essentially this is all that I think relates to the cartoons. DanielDemaret 10:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes indeed, he would have been sacked. He is getting pretty close already,for publically voicing his private/semi-official opinions MX44 20:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedish Foreign Minister resigns after having interfered with the freedom of media when they displayed the cartoons 

message: This article has been protected for a while now, and the debate seems to have cooled off. Since it is also temporarily linked from the Main Page in light of the associated Ministerial resignation, I've unprotected it. Edit congenially, and enjoy. -Splashtalk 22:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotected 

message: Azate, you deleted the word "Religion" from the reference on 266b. I am afraid someone is going to have to reinsert it, or possibly find another English interpretation for the word "tro".
The word "tro" literally means "faith", but in this case it should, I think, be interpreted as religious, or possibly ideological beliefs. I don't mind changing it to "faith" or "beliefs", but it would probably be clearer if one wrote "religious or ideological faith". DanielDemaret 15:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry. Working with knowledge from German and English, the whole paragraph is easy enough to understand, except "tro eller", which I thought meant "and also" or some such. I stumbled over "religious" in the first place, because it wasn't in the article's section beforehand for a rather long time, as far as I remember. Azate 15:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I put "religion" in after proofreading against 266b. "Faith" or "belief" might be better direct translations, with preference to the religios undertones in the word "faith" MX44 19:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Translations really are impossible aren't they? They are really all just interpretations. DanielDemaret 21:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tro 

message: In the section on aniconistim, I restored the miniature of Muhammad and the discussion that goes with it. I think it gives the reader an important historical perspective. I don't think an example and a couple of sentences are too much to include. Tom Harrison Talk 15:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any alternative suggestions on what bloat to remove? Raphael1 16:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miniatures 

message: This isn't quite meeting my standards for current event anymore. The template has been on this page for two months now, but the situation has clearly died down significantly to the point where it just isn't news. Maybe when intermittent events pop up, it should return. joturner 03:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Totally agree with that estimation of the "current event" status. Netscott 03:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: * I dunno. Not that the "current" tag changes anything of substance, but there is CURRENTLY a huge cartoon-crisis conference going on in Bahrein, with all sorts of major decision-makers plus Akkari, Laban and Hlayel in attentance. And the latter is on record saying "it is important to keep the pot boiling and to create a climate of hate". Plus, there is this new thing about Ahmed Akkari, making death threats of sorts. Azate 03:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: * Well the "current event" tag has been previously removed and another editor replaced it with the editorial comment of it being a "sleeper event"... by your logic Azate that sounds to be about the same reasoning. Netscott 19:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: * It is still considered a current event in Sweden and Denmark, at least. Not a day goes by without a related event popping up and is shown in media. It was only a few days ago that Foreign minister Laila Freivalds set a new record in scandals here.DanielDemaret 20:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Yup. Still current in Sweden. Today acting Foreign Minister Carin Jämtin was not made welcome in Darfur. According to the governor of Darfur due to the Swedish involvement in the Mohammed Cartoons according to press secretary John Zanchi.DanielDemaret 11:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: **And Jyllands-Posten chose to publish his outburst over Abdul Rahman, according to Reuters.  Septentrionalis 21:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: This seems to be mostly incidental.  It has more to do with the Darfur crisis than with the cartoons.  Sudan appears to be using the cartoons as an excuse to keep monitors out of the region.  Definitely worthy of mention in the timeline, but I'm not sure if brings the overall controversy back into the news. --StuffOfInterest 14:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, Stuffofinterest. I just feel that the cartoons are being used, and have been used, as an excuse or even a smokescreen, and that in some way this may be at the core of the events. This single event in Darfur is, as you say, hardly enough to put it back into the news in force. Perhaps if the excuse is used enough times, by enough officials, it may evolve into a new topic. But not yet, as you say. DanielDemaret 14:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Event? 

message: This page was getting huge again, so I took it upon myself to archive most of the older discussions. Hope I didn't archive anything I shouldn't have. MiraLuka 22:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't cause any problems unless you accidentally hit an active thread and even if you accidentally did it's a simple matter to move back from the archives so no worries there. Pegasus1138Talk | Contribs | Email ---- 21:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving