Talk:Social democracy

message: This quoted piece cites two opinion pieces rather than academic papers. Is this really good conduct?
Citing two academics and saying "described by academics" gives a false implication of a scholarly consensus.
"As a policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy." Allmänbildare (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using opinion pieces as a source? 

message: I think it's misleading to imply in the first line that economic democracy is one of the two main pillars of social democracy. I think this should be removed. I also think it should be clarified that today social democracy no longer stands for overturning the capitalist system. I'm not opposed to discussion of economic democracy or social democracy's more radical roots later down the page. But this is the principal definition that most readers will encounter on this page and currently it gives off the impression that social democracy is more radical than it is. This talk page is proof of how much confusion this is causing.
There's also citation bloat. There isn't a need for nine different sources for a single line. Oakley Kim (talk) 06:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You need sources to prove your claims. It would be incorrect and misleading to change an article based on subjective opinions. Allmänbildare (talk) 00:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok well, let me make the case then that the sources that are presently cited don't quite justify the current placement of economic democracy. Wintrop (1983) says that "originally the term social democracy denoted a concern to make the values of democracy apply to social and economic life..." so this is only supporting evidence regarding a definition of 19th century social democracy. Moreover, the author goes on to explain how social democracy changed and moderated according to its circumstances. Archer (1995) more strongly asserts social democracy as a tradition of economic democracy, but most of his work is discussing the potential future of social democracy, not explaining it as such. Archer's work reads to me as showing that besides a few notable experiments, political democracy and establishing a welfare state historically took priority—and these I would argue are more suited as the implied core pillars of social democracy. Ritzer (2004) references the Meidner plan (one of the experiments cited by Archer) which was indeed a bold and novel effort towards economic democracy. But it was only implemented in a watered-down form and then abandoned by the SAP. (More precisely, the right wing shut it down whilst in power and the SAP never reintroduced it.) So my interpretation of Ritzer is the same as with Archer. (As for Jones, unless I missed it or accessed the wrong version, I don't see a mention of economic democracy.) Oakley Kim (talk) 07:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

text: The main problem with this and related articles is that the topic is not defined. Social democracy can mean different things. Therefore what the article says about the topic will be contradictory. TFD (talk) 10:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Socialism and economic democracy (and citation bloat) 

message: The "In South Africa" section has nothing to do with the section its under ("Social democracy and democratic socialism"). It also doesn't seem to fit elsewhere in the article as its content is rather specific to South Africa, not social democracy in general. I propose this be removed.
Also regarding this line: "It is a left-wing political ideology that advocates for a peaceful democratic evolution from laissez-faire or crony capitalism towards social capitalism, sometimes also referred to as a social market economy." This line is unsourced and also untrue. The social market economy is a liberal concept/model, not social democratic (i.e. tied to the socialist tradition) even if it may have similarities with the latter in practice. I think this to be removed also. Oakley Kim (talk) 02:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  In South Africa and social market economy