Talk:Catalan Countries/Archive 1

message: The map of the catalan countries is pure fantasy. There is actually a fascist current in Catalonia that wants to include territories as Valencia or Balears in a invented entity called Catalan Countries. Valencia and Balears are different countries and communities inside Spain, with their own governments.
:: Lots of people still speak Catalan in these regions, although they are now in minority. Hugo Dufort 03:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's not any fascism. It's not an invented entity, because it existed: Corona d'Aragó. The idea is joining together those countries where catalan is spoken: Balearic Islands, Catalonia, Valencia, and a part of the Southern France. It's not fascism, it's a fully democratic proposal. It would only be possible if people wants it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.43.73.233 (talk) 02:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonsense map 

message: I stick to my previous comment about the absurdity of this term using a comparison with the Republic of Ireland (Eire). Why is it that nobody refers to the Republic of Ireland (Eire) as being part of the "British Countries" or "English Countries"? Why is it then considered logical to put an entry such as "Catalan countries"? 
The term exists but I don't see why it deserves a place in Wikipedia. Assuming that in its effort to cover all subjects "objectively" why should such a comparison be ommited? After all, an entry in Wikipedia should present both sides of an argument!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.40.23.72 (talk • contribs) 26 Nov 2005.
: "Why is it that nobody refers to the Republic of Ireland (Eire) as being part of the … "English Countries"? Possibly because the usual term is "The English-speaking countries", since "English" coupled with "country" only refers to one country. As an ethnicity, the Irish are clearly not English (nor are the Scots, the Welsh, the Ugandans, most of the Americans, most of the Australians,  etc.). In the case of the Catalan-speaking peoples, it is much less clear that there is an ethnic distinction. Not that I'm saying there isn't one, just that it's much less clear. Also, Catalan national identity is largely defined by language, English national identity is more defined by ancestry. I have a co-worker with a Basque father and a Galician mother; she grew up in Barcelona and simply considers herself Catalan. A London equivalent might consider herself to be British, but probably not "English" (though this might change if she married someone more unambiguously English). "British", unqualified, does not usually include even Northern Ireland. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is Anglosphere. --Error 04:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The absurdity of the term "Catalan Countries" 

message: Please if you don't believe in the idea of the "Països Catalans" (neither do I, read my previous contributions), don't substitute the whole article. Log into wikipedia, come here to the talk page, put your statements in a way suited for academic discussion, and be open for it. I'm pretty sure we'll find a way your vision will be reflected in the article, as mine had. Sometimes you'll have my support, sometimes not.
Otherwise i'll consider you a vandal, and i'll request your IP to be banned. This is not the wikipedia way ...
--Wllacer 07:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm suspecting that it could be the same user that's participating agressivelly on Wikipedia in Spanish under the username account :es:User:Fuster. In summer an administrator had to block it through two IP ranks (81.41.234.0/24, and 81.41.232.0/24). --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To our anonymous vandalizer 

message: As for the request for citations, well, I would remove the one after "not present at all" and the one after "claims to include". 
I'd do so based in the electoral results, which give us a very good idea of the "sentiment" in this regard: in the Land of Valencia's regional parliament there is no nationalist party who succeeds to overcome the 5% votes threshold; besides, the one which has been historically in close of so doing is Bloc, which is not a really "Catalan countries" supporter. 
In the Balearics, the PP (a staunch anti-Catalan countries party) holds an absolute majority (just like in the Land of Valencia, by the way), while there are two small nationalist parties in the regional parliament, PSM (4 seats in the autonomous parliament) and UM (3 seats in the autonomous parlimanet, the total number of seats is 59). 
UM is in a similar situation to the Bloc's: while being a nationalist party and not denying the unity of Catalan language (something which other minoritary parties do), they are not really supportive of the idea, seen as a 'cheeky' attempt from Catalonia's to overspill the limits of its own Autonomous Community and enter local politics in some others. PSM is indeed mildly supportive of the Catalan Countries idea, but his electoral success is quite limited.
I have no data about this one, but I'm guessing that in La Franja municipalities (let alone the Aragonese regional parliament), there are no nationalist parties achieving representation or, if they did, it would be quite minoritary.
Looks like the factuality of this is strong enough to get these two request for citations removed.
Mountolive 22:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: Everybody knows there is a little village in Sardinia where they speak a dialect of catalan (alguerese). Shouldn't the map be changed?
Onofre Bouvila 04:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alghero is not usually counted as one of the "Catalan Countries", though it would be included in the "Catalan-speaking world". - Jmabel | Talk 20:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Catalan is co-official in L'Alguer and there are catalans living there. I've always heard about it as a part of the Catalan Countries, and you just have to search "catalan countries" at Google to see it, so I really don't know what are you talking about. Your point of view is quite subjective. I've added it to the article. Here you can check what I am saying: , , , , . The fact that many people does not add it to the "usual" list of Catalan Countries is due to their ignorance. Onofre Bouvila 00:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about l'Alguer? 

message: OK, maybe this is a good idea, maybe not. Catalan Countries is a term I've never heard used in public discourse in English, nor is it used in academic circles, where the original "paisos catalans" or descriptive phrases like "regions in which Catalan is spoken", "traditionally catalan speaking regions" are used. Having an article with this name amounts to wikipedia creating an English term, and then importing a definition of that term that is highly controversial in Spain. Is wikipedia creating the Catalan Countries, rather than describing them? Sorry for going all french and post modern there: But if that was in any way comprehensible I'd like your feedback, with a view to changing the name of the article to "paisos catalans".
I know its not good to use a foreign word as the title for an encyclopedia article, but the translation is ropey as a sail-boat anyway: Mallorca, Valencia and Menorca, by the English definition of the word, never have been, nor ever will be, countries.
080107 boynamedsue
:I'd have no real problem with that. Elsewhere, we've used "Catalan-speaking world", but that is probably wrong here: the article is really about the (basically political more than academic) use of "paisos catalans". - Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I never realized of how odd "Catalan Countries" may sound in English and it makes sense what you point out about "Catalan Countries" creating an English term which is obviously out of the scope of an encyclopedia. In other words, yes, looks like re-naming to "Països (don't forget the umlaut) Catalans" is best, in the fashion of similar difficult to translate concepts such as Anschluss, which are kept in the original German here. Mountolive 06:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-Name 

message: I think it reflects well the true situation and the hostilities which some historical truths arouse. Small nations always have a bad time when interfacing with empires. In a recent poll made in Russia it came out that the biggest enemy of Russia was ... Latvia!
The Spanish empire and its supporters erased many languages, and obviously its spirit continues to do so by creating division and sowing discord.
The fact that some people react rudely just confirms that truth hurts certain vested interests.
Isn't it true that general Franco forbid printing in Catalan and teaching Catalan in schools? Isn't it true that he hated the Catalan language and not only denied Catalan official status, but he even persecuted those who stuck to it?
Therefore the hurts carry on and are not near to be resolved. There is a struggle between those who want to allow Catalan to continue and those that would rather erase it for ever if they could, using whatever instrument at hand to do it. Most Valencians are willing istruments for the eventual erasing of their own tongue in the future. The Catalans come first, Valencians will not be spared later.
I do not where are you from, I hope that you are not a foreigner, because I would not want you to have this idea about the linguistic situation in Spain. You speak aobut Franco (Do you know that he died more than 30! years ago?). The spanish Constitution recognice all languages in Spain, they are official, used everywhere, even you can learn these languages in all the spanish universities (not only in Catalonia).
The only linguistical hostility in Spain is that done by anti-spanish nationalists against the spanish language and spanish-speakers in Catalonia.
There are a normal situation in Galicia, Valencia, Aragon, Asturias and so on. There are anothers languages in that places, but there are not conflicts, bacause they do not use the language as a weapon.
The idea of "Catalan Countries" is against the valencians, that consider themselves valencians and spaniards, with a history and culture different from the Catalan one. Why is this not respected?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.223.24.67 (talk) 17:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article reflects true situation

message: Can you, unsigning one, provide proof of the hostilities by anti-spanish nationalists? Small nations located between greater empires have always been accused of what you say. Do Spanish-speakers living in Catalonia or Valencia respect the local language? Can you provide proofs that they do? Can you prove that the Spanish state is innocent?
You need to be reminded that Polish, Ukrainian and Lithuanian people were also accused of being "anti-Russian nationalists" and many died in the Gulag at the hands of Stalin. Your voice sounds so much like the Voice of the Empire. I know well that Franco is dead, but Franco's legacy is alive and well with your opinions!
I very much doubt that the Spanish (Castillian) language needs defending. It's preposterous! This is like the story of the wolf being mistreated by the lamb. Regarding the Valencians "suffering" at the hands of the Catalans, can you provide tangible proofs of all your accusations? Can you prove that The only linguistical hostility in Spain is that done by the smaller Catalonian nation against the greater Spanish state and its formidable linguistic legacy in the ex-Spanish colonies? Or is that only your own opinion?Mohonu 09:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The only linguistical hostility ?

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png