Talk:List of major/minor compositions

message: This is not really an example, as the major and minor sections are generally regarded as two movements, not one.
Kostaki mou 23:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Beethoven Opus 109

message: Is this a multi-movement work?  I think it's a single-movement symphonic poem.
Kostaki mou 01:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Strauss's Don Juan

message: * Beethoven - String Quartet in e, opus 59 no. 2 (Rasoumovsky Quartet No. 2), iv (C-e)
* Chopin - Ballade no. 2 (F-a)
* Schumann - No. 16 of Davidsbūndlertänze (G-b)
* Massenet - Piano Concerto (Eb-c)
Kostaki mou 22:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pieces beginning in major and ending in a different minor key

message: A progression ending in a major tonic followed by a minor tonic ending the piece? This also occurs in the first movement of Alkan's symphony for solo piano (admittedly not a stand-alone movement) and I believe other works as well; it's rare, but not unique. Schissel | Sound the Note! 13:05, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a reverse Picardy third at the end of Enya's song, "Orinoco Flow" ("Sail Away").  Kostaki mou (talk) 20:02, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverse Picardy Thirds 

message: Doesn't the music itself count as a source?  Anyone with any knowledge of music who consults the scores can verify (or refute) the information here.  Kostaki mou (talk) 03:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced? 

message: These should be moved back to the "miniatures" section.  I couldn't figure out how to do it.  They are individual pieces within collections, not "movements" in the same sense as those of sonatas, symphonies, etc.  If these pieces should be in the "movements" section, so should the Brahms rhapsody, the Chopin nocturne and the Fibich piece, for example.  Kostaki mou (talk) 01:44, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made this change.  (The excerpt from the Davidsbündlertänze is admittedly a borderline case, as the preceding piece leads directly into it and it would therefore be unlikely to be performed separately.)  Kostaki mou (talk) 22:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole of the Davidsbündlertänze is an interesting case for a list like this. From the second piece we gradually become aware that B minor is the main key of the work, against the G major of the opening, and we finally have it clear in the seventeenth – only for it to be supplanted by C major in the eighteenth, which is clearly not the main key, and yet had been prepared weakly with this function by the ninth piece (also ending a book and in C major). I don't think it should be included, but it certainly flirts with being major/minor while not actually being so. Double sharp (talk) 09:08, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I would think that the pieces of the Davidsbündlertänze are about as united as those of a song cycle, really; the question is whether that is enough to move them to being movements. Certainly they only make incomplete sense at best outside their context, unlike the Chopin nocturnes. Double sharp (talk) 15:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

text: I agree. For Schumann, I think that, for example, Carnaval, Papillons, the Humoreske, and the Symphonic Etudes are close together like song cycles, but Kinderszenen, Kreisleriana, and Fantasiestucke can be considered externally performable as seperate movements. ShangKing (talk) 09:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schubert and Schumann pieces just moved 

message: This had been listed once before and removed by someone who called it a "borderline" case, because the first movement, though beginning in D major, had B (minor and major) as its main tonic.  I fail to see how this disqualifies it.  Kostaki mou (talk) 01:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like we have different definitions of what counts! For multi-movement works, do we consider the starting key to be the overall key of the first movement (my definition), or do we consider it to be the key which the first movement starts in (yours)? (I think such cases should have their own section here.) Double sharp (talk) 09:11, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alkan - Grande Sonata, op. 33 (D-g♯) 

message: I'll leave this for the present, but a Picardy third is a major ending.  If we allow this to remain, we'll have to admit a great many more works.  At the very least, the mention of a Picardy third, if present, should be regarded as mandatory.  Kostaki mou (talk) 01:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bach - Cantata No. 40 (F major/F minor, (with Picardy third)) 

message: It would have been nice if the list indicated whether the musical work went from minor to major, vice versa, or going back and forth continuously. -kosboot (talk) 16:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a list of works and movements that start in major and end in minor.  Period.  To indicate every shift back and forth between the two modes would make the entries unwieldy and tiresome.  Kostaki mou (talk) 18:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The major and the minor 

message: A recitative and aria should generally count as one number.  Nobody is going to perform the recitative alone.  The aria might conceivably, depending on the case.  Kostaki mou (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved to "Movements from larger works". --Greenwoodtree 13:25, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "technically two separate numbers that flow into each other and are often grouped together" 

message: Such extended works are not usually expected to be coherent as far as tonality is concerned (though they may be).  (Symphonies, concertos, sonatas and other works in sonata form; cantatas, especially if short; are another matter as they are felt as units. Collections of piano pieces such as Schubert's Moments Musicaux or Schumann's Kreisleriana would not be felt as such units.  Suites may or may not be.  (Some are collections of excerpts, others form more coherent wholes.  I don't mean this as adverse criticism of either kind.)  There are borderline cases, of course.  Anyone else have any thoughts on this?  Kostaki mou (talk) 00:19, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question. In general, I think that if such works begin in major and end in minor on the same keynote, this will (probably) imply a tonal coherence that justifies inclusion on the list. Those that end in a minor key with a different tonic, I'd leave out (there may be exceptions though). --Greenwoodtree 13:44, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This made me think about Musorgsky's Khovanshchina, which I added to the list some time ago. On one hand, it starts in E major and ends in G-sharp minor (well, technically A-flat minor, but written more sanely), and actually, there is no scene that starts and ends in the same key. On the other hand, there are clear extramusical associations between the keys used and what is going on in the plot (see for example David Brown's book on the composer; this generally reflects a sharp/flat principle, although privately I wonder how much it really means given that Musorgsky seems quite content often to go so far down the circle of fifths that he goes back up the other side, and Brown has to somehow tell which parts are "really" in a sharp key and which are "actually" in an extreme flat key). I've not yet made my mind up about this one. In a case like Mozart, where the finales always start and end in the same key (well, excluding the teenage works), and the operas always end in the key they started in, I'd unequivocally support the inclusion of whatever examples there may be (although, come to think of it, I don't think there are any in his case). Double sharp (talk) 14:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, the changing-tonic works in particular need to be treated on a case-by-case basis, but certainly if there are clear extramusical associations with the keys - particularly the progression from the starting major key to the finishing minor key - I think it should qualify for the list. --Greenwoodtree 20:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Operas, Ballets, Oratorios, song cycles, etc. count? 

message: Partly based on these discussions on the talk page I have expanded on the criteria for works to exclude on the main page. --Greenwoodtree 11:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Criteria

message: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_major/minor_compositions&oldid=850171398
Is there an implied Da Capo? It is very common in baroque dance pieces to have contrasting major and minor sections, with a Da Capo back to the beginning, but the piece in question is not a dance piece. ShangKing (talk) 03:40, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Couperin piece 

message: Stirb, Lieb' und Freud!, No. 2 of Schumann's Kerner cycle Op. 35, begins in A-flat major and ends in F minor – but inconclusively on the dominant chord, which is of course major. I am inclined to say that this should count, but others might disagree. No. 9 (Frage) does the same thing (beginning in E-flat major and ending on the dominant of C minor). Double sharp (talk) 06:29, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  An interesting case: ending on the dominant