Talk:Imam Shamil

message: Shamil is a really interesting person, and I think that this article really should be expanded and subdivided into different headings. I'm thinking about his origins (I don't know too much about this), his rise to power in the late 1830s, the height of his power in the 40s, the Crimean War and stagnation, and finally defeat and captivity. If no one has any serious objections to expanding the article on Shamil, I'll start the expansion. --The PNM 05:28, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: This is probably the same Shamil mentioned in the talks of the Lubavitcher Rebbe:
A story is told of a man named Shamil, a leader of the Georgian tribes that lived in Russia's Caucasian Mountains over a century ago. The Russian army attacked the Georgians, intending to deprive them of their freedom. Unable to vanquish the valiant Georgians in battle, the Russian army leaders proposed a false peace treaty, and thus succeeded in getting them to lay down their arms. Immediately afterwards, the Russians lured the Georgian leader, Shamil, away from his stronghold and imprisoned him.
Exiled and helpless, Shamil yearned for his earlier freedom and fortune. He consoled himself with the knowledge that he would eventually be released and returned to his former position with even more power and glory. His ardent yearning was expressed in a sad yet hopeful song.
Chassidim sing Shamil's melody because its true story is an allegory for the chronicles of the soul. Each soul descends into this world from the heavens, clothed in the body of a human being. Its physical garments, in a sense, are its prison cell, for it constantly longs for the spiritual freedom and fulfillment it knew. It strives to liberate itself from the "exile" of the human body by directing the body's physical activity into the path of Torah and mitzvos, anticipating the time when it will leave this world behind and once again ascend into the lofty spiritual realms.
The Shamil nigun can be listened to from there.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.224.173 (talk) 07:29, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shamil's Nigun 

message: I just read five different biographies of Shamil, and the one given here is not similar to any of the ones i read. Since he was a local hero it is very hard to find a NPOV text about him, but i still doubt that the one given here is NPOV. References should be given to either make sure that the given information is correct, or to at least give the source of information so that we can see whose POV this is. For instance i find it hard to believe that his sons became Russian army officials, since they were notorious because of their very long war against the Russians. Other sources i found say that they became officers of the Ottoman army, which makes much more sense.SYS64738 09:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shamil had 5 sons: two served tzar, two served sultan and one died young. Abolen 15:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still need to see the references to believe that, not only because this idea seems even unlikelier, but also since the objectivity is very hard to achieve regarding historical heroes. There are at least three different stories on the internet about his sons. All should be mentioned and referenced.SYS64738 20:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, sure. But historical heroes are onе thing, and well-documented army service that ended less than 100 years ago is other thing. Here's biografy of Shamil by Shapi Quaziev (in Russian): Imam Shamil (Hardcopy: ) Abolen 23:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Would pictures of them in Russian uniform in St Petersburg do? Seriously, his sons' carreers are very well-documented. AllenHansen (talk) 11:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  need references 

message: I just made a small change to the photo caption, since Shamil was in no way a Chechen. He is generally agreed to be an Avar from what is now Dagestan. A popular myth has grown around his 'Chechen-ness' since the current conflicts began in the 1990s.
----------------------
I agree that this site needs more references.  I am unable to find that Shamil went to Mecca in 1828.  I am not disputing that this actually happened, I am just unable to find a scholarly source.
:There are no sources as such, but it is generaly accepted. AllenHansen (talk) 11:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Avar 

message: I have removed the category 'Chechen politician' from this article. Imam Shamil was born in Gimry, Dagestan, so if he should be listed as a politician at all, he should be listed as a Dagestani politician. Feel free to let me know what you think about this. ForrestSjap 15:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chechen politician 

message: Hi, the caption of the photo is totally wrong. Shamil doesn't even appear on the photo. The russian old cyrillic writings on the top tell who the people are. From left to right: Gazi Muhammad's confident, murid Hajio; Shamil's son Muhammad-Shafi; Shamil's sons-in-law: Abdurrahim and Abdurrahman.  The biggest caption (bottom) says "Shamil's family". And it says it's a photo (so not a painting by Vassily Tim) and that it was taken in 1860 (so not 1859) in Kaluga (so not St. Petersburg). Would someone please make sure this is corrected (it's been ages I've last edited wikipedia..)  
kazim (from az.wikipedia (account doesn't seem to be valid here..))  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.236.79.170 (talk) 00:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo: Shamil and his sons 

message: From the article 'Crimean War', 'Caucasus theatre' section:
:"This was Prince Ellico Orbeliani whose wife was later kidnapped by Imam Shamil at Tsinandali."
Does anyone have any knowledge of this?  Should something perhaps be included here?    Heavenlyblue (talk) 03:05, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Imagining a Chechen military aristocracy: the story of the Georgian princesses held hostage by Shamil:  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02634930410001310535?journalCode=ccas20    Heavenlyblue (talk) 05:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

text: A Georgian Princess (Monthly Packet) [A dramatieation] Pages 62-69, 162-169, 260-267, etc.:  https://books.google.ca/books?id=gXk3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=Prince+Ellico+Orbeliani&source=bl&ots=JuLfn6EleD&sig=OHYQNyePPyE3Vfs0B2yGQD4hgB0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXxu7rrfrcAhVrHTQIHfgMAP4Q6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Prince%20Ellico%20Orbeliani&f=false    Heavenlyblue (talk) 05:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whose wife was later kidnapped by Imam Shamil 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I see solid sources not in English about the descent of the Imam are deleted. Please explain why with links to the rules, precedents. Now it seems the follower editors of the article are somehow biased. English language can't cover even a fraction of this topic and this rule seems strange, until explained at least. It's like forbidding to support the history of Portugal with Portuguese sources or allowing to support the history of Indonesia in English only.  LouisAragon, please help if you can.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 05:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the material. Its deletion was not in line with policy.--Calthinus (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

text: Хаджимурад I'm asking you again to stop vandalizing the article and pay attention here.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 06:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Descent and non-English language sources

message: User:Хаджимурад please skip this article next time you want to vandalize it. quotes are given, sources are given. stop wasting time of other editors. or if you want to continue do it in a wikipedia way, here on talk page.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 18:18, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: ST47 I don't know what he wants from me any more. seems useless to write anything --Arsenekoumyk (talk) 07:10, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

text: Shamil was not a Kumyk. He was an Avar, he just had one Kumyk ancestor, compared to all his other Avar ancestors. I see this edit war has been going on. And I have to side with  on this one. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact 07:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: hello. your personal opinion is irrelevant, sources are.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 08:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly my point. Thanks for repeating it. While you may think he is Kumyk because he had 1 Kumyk relative... that is not how it works. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact 12:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know why you're twisting article's content, but — sources are given to what they are given, word for word, and speculations are irrelevant--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Your name literally has "Koumyk" in it, and you are trying to show an important figure as a Kumyk when he -yes, as a matter of fact,- wasn't. Who is twisting here? And for the record - nobody is speculating here, I am just stating a commonly known fact, that 1 relative who is Kumyk does not make you Kumyk, if we worked here in Wikipedia with such gibberish logic, a lot would have to change. Wassalam. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact 14:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: yes it has, and yours has adig, what's the problem? also, see sources. sources matter in defining what is "gibberish" and what's not.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:27, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

text: unlike your personal view of the matter, which is irrelevant, again--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is, if a source says that this banana is %25 orange, that does not mean we will say it has orange origins. It is a banana that has some orange in it. What's so hard to understand? Plus... your sources aren't even properly cited. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact 14:55, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: well. I tried to understand your point, but all I get is banana-related :) please mention me when you have structured points and arguments--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 14:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you are making fun of my hypothetical example? Ok. We totally need a meditator, someone who doesn't know us, because you are living in another dimension. Signed, ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact 17:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{u|Хаджимурад}}, stop edit warring and vandalism

message: Zandxo, you've already been blocked for edit warring in Uchar-hadji article. Now you're starting here. Please be constructive and start discussing, and please seek consensus first.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't NEED YOUR CONSENSUS, you are constantly lying. There is one source, one source that Imam Shamils father is of Kumyk origin, and that one source is being used in all the sources you have provided. Also, I have NOT CHANGED anything besides clarifying that according to ONE source his father is of Kumyk origin. You are stealing peoples history.  --Zandxo (talk) 18:45, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: 4 sources are given. if that's the problem, then everything is "based on sources". there is 0 source that he is avar, so what?--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: All 4 sources go back to the same source. Both of his parents are known, both are Avar, speak Avar and come from an Avar village. I am clarifying that his fathers ancestor is a Kumyk ACCORDING to that one source. --Zandxo (talk) 19:02, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: thank you for your comment! please be patient. firstly, there are 2 contemporary sources, not one, if you study more carefully the topic. "both of his parents are known", so what? there is a discussion about their ancestry. why didn't you write "according to some sources, which are not based on contemporary sources, and which are not given in this article, Shamil is Avar...". why did you start adding things to Kumyk part only? are you on some kind of anti-kumyk spiteful crusade here? what are you purposes? why didn't you extend Chechen version in Uchar-hadji article, which I by the way created myself! why are you shouting about Sala-uzdens when you know perfectly that Chechens didn't have that social class at all? why did you start hysterical edit warring? are you going to turn your editing creed into some kind of positive activity? --Arsenekoumyk (talk) 19:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a joke, right? You are the one spreading Kumyk fantasies here. The info that his family is Avar was already given, I simply made clear that the theory that his family is of Kumyk origin is according to ONE source and nothing proven. Again with the victimising, Arsen krasavchik. I did extend the Chechen version in the Uchar-hadji article, I clarified that Gerzel-Aul was fully Chechen during that time and simply subordinated to Kumyk princes. Chechens didn't have those classes yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the Sala-Uzden are of Chechen origin from the Teyp Vashindaroy and related to the Chechens that live in Dagestan. --Zandxo (talk) 19:15, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: no, you did not. clarify. actually Gerzel-awul was insied "Kumyk possession" at that time, but it has nothing to do with your insults.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 19:58, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The presence of Russian backed up Kumyk princes doesn't change the Chechen population of the village. Unlike you, I have been to Gerzel-Aul (including having relatives that live there). Where have I insulted you? --Zandxo (talk) 20:51, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I just checked what you consider "insults" lol. Calling you by your nickname is an insult? Calling things out as nationalistic is an insult? You're obviously more than just biased, the things you claim are going into the nationalistic direction, it's not meant as an insult in any way. --Zandxo (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I said krasavchik, which basically means "nice man". How is that an insult? Are you being serious? I thought you speak Russian, how come you needed a translator for that? --Zandxo (talk) 21:11, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: your familiarity is insulting--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 10:18, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: calling someone nationalist on wiki can lead to permanent ban--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 10:19, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not insulting you, you are simply victimizing yourself (once again). You stated things that are common among Kumyk nationalists. --Zandxo (talk) 16:40, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: furiosity and blind chechen-centric nature of your edits is apparent. dispute resolution and a mediator is the only way to reach consensus with you.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 06:13, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit warring from Zandxo 

message: According to some contemporary authors his mother was from an Avar family of Ashilta village [Дадаев Ю. У. По тропам шамилевских сражений: историко-документальная повесть. — Мх.: Юпитер, 1997. — С. 106. — 248 с. 19], according to others — Kumyk [Рамазан Абдулатипов. Родники разума и души ; Люди моей судьбы : в 2 кн. Ляссе.].
In time this line might be added, however I don't see it as important.--Arsenekoumyk (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: One more source about mother's side

message: ... arguing whether he was a kumyk, avar, or whatever he was - guys, he primarly was a muslim alhamdulIllah.
If nationalist avars like some brothers here get triggered by the fact that one of his ancestors was apparently kumyk - imagine how "useful" you would be during Imam Shamil's struggle against the russian empire.
Turks are not unknown to the caucasian mountains - there happened admixture to some extent, this is not a dishonour, neither for you, nor for turks, get along with each other, or kadyrow is just the beginning.
{The believers are but one brotherhood, so make peace between your brothers. And be mindful of Allah so you may be shown mercy.} - Surah 49 Ayah 10  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BergamottenTee (talk • contribs) 05:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imam Shamil... and his alleged ancestors... 

message: Due to the fact that Imam Shamils Kumyk ancestry is highly doubtful and nothing certain I would suggest changing "Imam Shamil was born in 1797, to an Avar Muslim family[3][4][5][6][7] of Kumyk descent" to "Imam Shamil was born in 1917 to an Avar Muslim family, which according to some sources are of Kumyk descent". It is also important in my opinion to note that 2 of the 3 sources are by the Kumyk historian Arslan Magomedsoltanovich Khalilov, therefore I also suggest adding "according to some sources, especially Kumyk, is of Kumyk descent". The following 3 user (User:Shuginubi, User:Adigabrek, User:Хаджимурад) had already raised concerns about this paragraph and tried seeking consensus on the talk page but were encountered by the questionable argumentation of now blocked User:Arsenekoumyk. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: disagree. kumyk ancestry might be doubtful for yourself, but it's supported by 3 secondary sources, which rely on two primary, at least one of which is based on shamil's words - chichagova, and his ancestry isn't a secret. and if you prove that chichagova, bliyev and halilov are kumyk, which you won't, even then it would be absurd to point out researchers' ethnicity. your suggestion is void. in fact, there are also two versions on his mother's side, they should be added too--KrakDuck (talk) 22:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I was being pretty clear that I was asking for the opinion of someone with a neutral stance? I was also very clear about which source IS Kumyk, I doubt I could phrase it even more clear. Now that you mention "even then it would be absurd to point out researchers' ethnicity" I realised looking through your debate on the Uchar Hadji articles talk page that you had no problems with the sentence "Some modern scholarship, especially Chechen, tend to name Ochar as Chechen"". Odd. I am pretty sure there will be sources claiming that Shamil was of X ethnicity. Good thing Wikipedia isn't some nationalistic playground, therefore the article should be more neutral. I suggest either adding "according to some sources(, especially Kumyk,) of Kumyk descent" or completely removing the "of Kumyk descent" due to it being highly doubtful and a biased stance.  ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 20:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

text: I agree with this. But my previous attempts resulted in nothing. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact  12:42, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's very hard to have a debate with the person you tried seeking consensus with. I am going through a similar process with what I assume are his sockpuppets. KrakDuck has not replied yet. I'll file a request to have the sentence changed soon. Glad we were able to seek consensus! ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed, not hard, but impossible. neutral observation is required.--KrakDuck (talk) 08:41, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

text: 7 sources are given, and not "Kumyk" sources.--178.35.104.238 (talk) 07:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You are obviously another sockpuppet pushing for a very biased view, please try to be neutral. I will completely remove the mention of his Kumyk ancestry due to it being simply a theory. You can add it again with a new section, like I suggested. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 16:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Widely accepted fact about the Kumyk ancestry, based on many primary and secondary sources, from Shamil's own words. I suggest you stop you chauvinistic attempt to wipe out the word Kumyk from the article and be a bit adequate.--178.35.104.238 (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Widely accepted by Kumyk nationalists. It is a theory pushed by a nationalist narrative and should not be portrayed as something certain. I am not trying to wipe out the word Kumyk from the article, stop throwing your accusations at me. I have proposed adding a new section about theories of his ancestry, including the Kumyk one. I am thinking of filing a report against you for vandalism and potential sockpuppetry because I am quite sure you are another sockpuppet.~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 18:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Your chauvinistic opinion is against well known sources, I also see you recently got away from detection of your multiple accounts which you use for attacking different articles. I'm kindly asking to wait for a neutral participant before advancing your anti Kumyk Crusades.--178.35.104.238 (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Neutral participants like User:Adigabrek have already agreed with me. Please refrain from throwing those accusations at me. I have clearly stated that the theory is nothing certain and should not be portrayed as that, therefore should be removed from "Family and early life" and added to a new section about possible non-Avar origins of him, including the Kumyk theory. ~~Reiner Gavriel (talk) 21:39, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

text: I also think he is a sockpuppet. I've also had similar problems with nationalist POV vandals, especially in the Kefir article with "Fael Daug Alan". ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact  07:08, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubtful Kumyk "ancestry" 

message: This article is extremely interesting. I am the great granddaughter of John Federoff who has been mentioned as a son of Peet'mat Shamil and Sheikh Mansur Federov.  John Fedoroff was the son of Ivan Federoff and Molly Federoff nee Syvliczenko.  
In my family tree I have no proof that my great grandfather John Fedoroff is related to this great warrior.
I am eager to find out more information in reference to this if possible. 2001:8004:12C0:472:EA32:5BC2:DA8A:4B1A (talk) 09:49, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Searching for information relating to Imam Shamil's daughters dependent