Talk:Nick Adams (actor, born 1931)/Archive 1

message: Anon 80.141.xxx.xx, your IP address suggests you're in the Amsterdam area and your editing pattern strongly suggests you have the articles Nick Adams and Natalie Wood, among others, on a watchlist. The only way to have a watchlist is to have a WP account. Do you have a Wikipedia user account? I mean, you don't have to answer but I thought I'd ask. Wyss 21:27, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I do not have these articles on what you call a watchlist, but nearly every day I am looking what has happened to my contributions, and frequently I am confronted with repeated reverts you did. 80.141.249.174 02:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Just for your information. Apart from the endless and boring edit war with you and your alter ego, Ted Wilkes concerning the articles on Nick Adams, Natalie Wood or Elvis Presley, I have contributed to several other articles using my dynamic IP address, 80.141.xxx.xxx. One of my recent edits is the new page on TrustRank. I think you should keep personal remarks such as that I am allegedly logging "on anonymously to pursue a wantonly misleading PoV agenda" and some other accusations to yourself, for these suspicions are completely unfounded and such attacks do not help matters at all. There is one interesting fact. You are the person who frequently tries to delete any references to the possible homosexuality of Nick Adams or Elvis Presley, although there are several independent sources which support this claim. 80.141.245.101 15:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm curious

message: User:Wyss has claimed on this discussion page (see above), "So I can confirm that, over 35 years after his death, we have a passing reference in Lambert that Adams was gay, but the book's credibility has been questioned. Any other references to Adams as gay are even less credible, tabloid-type hearsay accounts which again, have emerged long after his death."
: 1. The credibility of Gavin Lambert's book which states that Natalie Wood dated gay actor Nick Adams has not been questioned. The reputed author (80) was a Wood friend for 16 years. He has had access both to official papers and to Natalie's own writings including her day book and has interviewed members of her family and her husband, Robert Wagner. Certainly the biography supplies an insider's look at Wood and chronicles everything concerning her life. Wagner gave Lambert full cooperation for the book, telling his friends to share their memories as well. Without that help, the book would not have been complete. Natasha Gregson Wagner, daughter of Natalie Wood, calls Lambert's book "a wonderful biography on my Mom ... that we are all involved with - everybody that knew my Mom and was close to her - and that will really be the one I hope everyone reads. It will be the definitive biography on my Mother." 
: 2. In a book which was published in 1972 (certainly not an account which has emerged long after Adams's death), gay actor Sal Mineo, still alive at that time, undoubtedly confirms that there was a sexual relationship between Adams and James Dean. He says, "I didn't hear it from Jimmy, who was sort of awesome to me when we did Rebel. But Nick told me they had a big affair." 80.141.187.27 10:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Mineo's additional remarks refer to some other Hollywood stars. You cannot deny that it is a fact that Sal Mineo says that James Dean and Nick Adams "had a big affair". This statement by an actor who knew both Dean and Adams very well undoubtedly supports the view that Adams was gay. 80.141.228.96 12:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He plainly relates those rumours to his own comments about "Jimmy", after he's been led into the question by the interviewer. The remark is interesting, but doesn't even support itelf since he adds... I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true. Wyss 12:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are wrong. Here, again, is the full quote: "Sal Mineo: I didn't hear it from Jimmy, who was sort of awesome to me when we did Rebel. But Nick told me they had a big affair- I don't know if it was while they were living together or not. But there's always the roomie thing in Hollywood- Brando and Wally Cox, Brando and Tony Curtis, Cary Grant and Randolph Scott- and there are always rumors about them, even if they aren't true. I think Hollywood secretly wants to think it's true..." See http://www.salmineo.com/news/inter_hadleigh.html The additional remarks clearly refer to "the roomie thing" concerning the other actors. The original quote also proves that Mineo wasn't "led" into the remark by the interviewer and then quickly qualified it, as you wrongly claim below. 80.141.223.111 12:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Your only intention seems to be to disparage every source which is not in line with your personal opinion. 80.141.228.96 12:16, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Readers are reminded that when I found this page the anon was using, in the article, the term biggest piece in town to describe Adams' penis. Whatever, there is no documented evidence Adams was gay. Wyss 12:18, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Significantly, all of your statements do not prove a thing. 80.141.223.111 12:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The anon misunderstands how this works. Any burden of proof is on the editor who wishes to include material in the article. I don't need to prove anything (never mind "a negative"). I'm asking for secondary sources drawn from primary source documentation, which the anon has yet to provide. I think it's time to declare a consensus on this. Wyss 12:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Absence of evidence is not the same as presence of evidence. It is the opposite of presence of evidence. Wyss 13:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 
Facts which prove that user Wyss's claims are wrong


message: Administrator Ed Poor says on another Talk page:
:I don't mean to pick on you, but:
::Please note how the anon demonstrates an utter lack of understanding of how Wikipedia and the historical sciences work. Only the anon's assertion requires proof (or at least some sort of primary source documentation cited by a secondary source). As an editor I don't need to prove anything (never mind prove a negative).
:I expect a bit more from signed in users. Is that fair? Maybe not, but I've leaned that way these past few years.
::Anyway, unless an assertion is utterly uncontroversial, it's going to need some back-up. Especially, if one of more contributors challenge the assertion. Then, it's better to move the disputed passage to the article's associated talk page.
:A good way to deal with disputed ideas is to attribute an assertion to a source. Like:
* Nick Adams says James Dean screwed Natalie Wood while Elvis watched (note: this is a made-up example); or,
* Nick Adams says Elvis Presley paid X to cover up his homosexual affairs with Y and Z (another made-up example)
:Note the common theme here. Wikipedia is not saying Adams [in the made-up example] is right, it's merely passing along his claims clearly attributed to him. Uncle Ed 18:40, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
The anon is urged to re-read this talk page if he has further questions why his edits to this article hav not been encyclopedic. Wyss 16:41, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for articles

message: It should be noted that Wyss's last revert (see ) totally deleted the following relevant information:
a) From the "Hollywood career" section:
#Dean became his friend and roommate.
#At about the same time he was also a close friend to Elvis Presley.
b) From the "Rumours" section:
:According to several independent sources, such as Gavin Lambert's Natalie Wood: A Life (2004) and Boze Hadleigh's Conversations with my Elders (1972), Adams had homosexual leanings. Gay actor Sal Mineo, for instance, stated that Adams told him that he had a big affair with James Dean. David Bret's book Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2002) even claims Elvis Presley was intimate with Adams. That the singer had an affair with Adams is also confirmed by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley. However, there are no court records, contemporary letters or statements attributed to Adams to support the rumours that Adams was homosexual. 
Further, Wyss himself has included material in the article which is based either on gossip books, unsupported by documentation, or on undocumented, passing references he picked up from websites. On the other hand, he accuses me of having used sources of inferior quality, although I have cited several independent books, articles, reviews, biographical websites, etc. on this talk page and in the article which prove what I have said. This is what I call unfairly applying double standards in order to support Wyss's biased view. 80.141.230.189 18:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing-by-revert which is not acceptable

message: *Assisting mediator Jcarrack: For mediation to continue, its necessary that User:80.141... register and log in. Its anonymous, it requires only name and password, and presents many more benefits than not having one. User:80.141 appears to be reasonable and articulate, but should he continue to remain unregistered for this debate, I recommend this be moved to Arbitration, to impose this simple request on User:80.141, or block em from editing. Sinreg -SV|t 18:10, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your help. I have now created a Wikipedia account. I will be on vacation with my family the next two weeks. In the meantime, an administrator or mediator may decide if some details of my last edits are in line with the Wikipedia policies and may be reinstated. See   -  - . Good luck and keep me postet on your progress. I will reply in detail later. Onefortyone 21:09, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How can Onefortyone participate in mediation (which he requested), or any progress be made, if he is not available to discuss anything? Based on the groundrules supplied by user:JCarriker, I respectfully suggest mediation begin only when and if Onefortyone comes back or otherwise available and willing to actively participate. Wyss 21:22, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that the manner in which Onefortyone (formerly known as "the anon") established his user and talk pages indicates prior experience as a registered user of Wikipedia. Wyss 21:28, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation

message: USER:Onefortyone take note:
*User talk:Trey Stone#Mail - Our current thinking is that we will ban aggressive POV editors from the articles which they impact. This policy has been refined somewhat from our former general bans and includes Wikipedia:Probation. – Wikipedia:Arbitrator Fred Bauder
::I welcome and strongly endorse Fred Bauder's remark. In the interest of full disclosure, please note that User:Ted Wilkes copied the above and placed on this page (it was not posted here by Fred Bauder). Wyss 14:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Wyss, as I have cited several independent sources to support my contributions, I am not an aggressive POV editor. Onefortyone 15:03, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read that post again Onefortyone. I didn't put it there, User:Ted Wilkes put it there. What I said on your talk page stands. Wyss 15:07, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV pushers

message: User:Onefortyone (including as ANON 80.141.etc.) has several variations of his claim about Dee Presley (the ex-wife of Vernon Presley who were separated in 1974 and divorced in 1977). At Talk:Elvis Presley he stated:
*First he  stated: "In her book The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis, Dee Presley, the king's stepmother, also makes some astonishing accusations. She says that Elvis was with men, too, and also mentions his affair with Nick Adams."
*Then when it was proven that no such book exists he changed it to assert: "In her manuscript book The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis Dee Presley, also confirms that Elvis had sexual encounters with men and mentions his affair with his friend, Nick Adams."
*Now that nonsense about using an unpublished manuscript as a reference is a joke that was deleted, today we get version No. 3: "Dee Presley also says that Elvis had an affair with Nick Adams."
In this article on Nick Adams, this User inserted the same thing about Dee Presley many times and came up with yet more versions above including this one:
*"that he was homosexual. Indeed, this accusation (by Bret's book) is proved by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, and by his platonic girlfriend Judy Spreckels." 
Seeing as this User reverted others more than FORTY times when they tried to revert this nonsense, perhaps User:Onefortyone needs to explain himself as he has reinserted this repeatedly again today both here and in the Presly article. Ted Wilkes 02:46, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
:Sorry, Ted, my contributions are based on independent sources (books, articles, etc.) Onefortyone 12:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is fine. I have added some notes on Adams's friendship with Elvis at that time, which is also proved by a photograph showing them sitting together in a car. Onefortyone 12:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dee Presley

message: I wonder why you have deleted the passage on Adams's friendship with Elvis. Even Ted Wilkes has confirmed that this friendship existed. Red West, member of the Memphis Mafia, says: "...Nick Adams - I don't know if you remember Nick Adams - did a series called "The Rebel". He was a friend of Elvis's and I went to Hollywood and met him. He helped me get into the first door..." There is the following statement by Ted Wilkes on the Talk:Elvis Presley page: 
:"Did Elvis Presley know actor Nick Adams, and Adams' wife and two children? He absolutely knew Nick Adams, along with several other men with whom he studied Karate while in Los Angeles. Adams was one of the many hangers-on who tried to build a friendship with the biggest star in the world - to enhance his own career. First it was James Dean thar Adams tried to be friends with then a few years later when he heard Presley was a big James Dean fan, he joined the Karate class and ingratiated himself with Presley." 
The additional statements by Judy Spreckels and Red West and the photograph showing the stars sitting together in a car undoubtedly prove that Elvis and Adams must have been close friends for some time. Onefortyone 13:17, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: O.K. I have now added the sentence, "It is also well known that Adams and Elvis Presley were close friends." Onefortyone 13:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And I've tried to tweak it, only to prevent any chance that mentioning their well-known friendship could be interpreted as "revelatory." Wyss 13:51, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. It's O.K. now. Onefortyone 13:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Adams's friendship with Elvis