Talk:Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves

message: "If a receiver of stolen goods can be described as "honest"!"
Pretty sure that doesn't belong there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.169.138 (talk) 10:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a note rather than a reference, of course - some articles nowadays have the two kinds of footnote separated. Hardly an "opinion" though - Ali Baba "finds" the theives' loot, not old buried treasure but their current stash, and has no compunction about converting it to his own use without any thought for the proper owners (presuming the thieves haven't murdered them all! This may be "honest" by fairy story standards (or even by the mores of Medieval Arabia or Persia) but it would be quite dishonest nowadays, in fact it would count as receiving stolen goods. Add new comments to the bottom of the page, by the way - they'll get missed otherwise - and sign them of course. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference contains opinion 

message: m
What is the phrase in the original Arabic; is "Open Sesame" a literal translation, or a phoenetic one?  --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:35, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe "Open Tahini!" would be a literal translation. The IPA characters for the Arabic might look like "if'tax tax'in!" where "ax" comes close to the German "ach." The simple iambic rhythm gains a mysterious tension from the inner alliterative repetition, the anacrusis...   By comparison, the feeble English "Open Sesame" seems phonetically too weak to be a proper magical command. Just plain Bill 02:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: -- "Open Sesame" in Arabic is افتح يا سمسم Eftax ya semsem  , x means a letter between the German ach and H , also I wanted to say that 1000 nights and night is an Arabic story perhaps with Indian and Persian roots even though a lot of stories have been added to the tale from Arabic heritage and folk stories  .By the way the oldest version of 1000 nights and night remind is from the 9th century and if you can read Arabic you can see the structure of the poems in the tale is different than Persian poems Aziz1005 22:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Open Sesame 

message: Would the statment about the mainstream press count as an opinion? There seems to be no support for it offered in the article or links, doesn't that violate wikipedia standards? 
I won't change it, because I don't really know the answer, it just seems suspect.
--68.223.54.80 22:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mainstream Press?

message: Is it strictly acurate to refer to the Iraq war as a war on Islam? I know some people have that interpretation (Both some people in the Arab world and the ignorant westerners who make the assumption Muslim=terrorist) I propose that simply 'War in Iraq' would be more acurate, possibly dated to distinguish it from the first gulf war.
Edited to add: Looking at the history it appears that this was a recent change, probably in reaction to the fact that the previous text refered to the US and allies as 'Friendly forces' which is either NPOV in itself or just innacurate for a global encylopedia.
Edited again: I'll try and NPOV it a bit. If anyone disputes my changes then just speak up here.
--JamesGlover 00:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iraq War

message: In the article Ketuanan Melayu, we read:
'Many Bumiputra contractors in turn subcontracted their jobs to others, who were in some cases Chinese; "Ali Baba" arrangements with "the Malay [Ali] using his privileges to acquire licences and permits denied the non-Malay, then accepting a fee to be the front-man while the non-Malay [Baba] ran the business," were prevalent.'
Note that 'Ali' is a common Malay name, and that the 'Babas' of Melaka are Malayanised Chinese, descendants of Chinese traders who intermarried with Malays, at and before the time of the Portuguese there.  So the 'Ali Baba' of the term is a punning combination of the two parties, rather than the name of a single individual.
That article links here; should this article either link there, or provide a similar statement?  Opinions, please! yoyo 02:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage in Malaysia 

message: As of 2008, the term "Ali Baba" is used in Iraq to refer to "robbers" or bandits (of any sort). It is most frequently used during enforcement of the "one man / one gun" rule which allows for one gun per fighting age adult male to protect against robbers. The term is used because (perhaps through previous use by coalition forces) it is a common term understandable to both troops and civilians.   -- my main citation is personal experience, however I was able to find one article that eludes to it. http://www.idahostatesman.com/216/story/9326.html
I'm not good with wiki-code so I am putting it in here, in hopes that it will be added as appropriate  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.11.15 (talk) 11:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Use In Iraq War

message: If the oldest version of 1001 nights is Arabic, because Arabs burnt the persian versions when Iran was invaded by Arabs. There are some Arabic or Indian stories in 1001 nights, but main Characters and more than 80% of this story are iranian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.154.36.62 (talk) 13:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a reference that the story might be originally in Persian rather than Arabic, or have a Persian origin then please produce it - we've bent over double to include the possibility of a Persian origin of 1001 Nights and Sinbad the Sailor in spite of scholarly consensus being that this is just not so. If on the other hand you're relying on it having been included in the Western translations of 1001 Nights then forget it - because this story actually isn't from the original version of that book at all! Explain again - it's not really a 1001 Nights story!!!! Got that yet? SO if you want to say it's Persian you're going to have to find something else, and it has to be a proper reference. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:08, 17 June 
2008 (UTC)
Forty Thieves Village is in the south-eastern Anatolian region (known as Kurdistan). In the village there have been
discovered many treasure that have been displayed in the Mardin Museum. It's not fiction; they were real people who has been commemorated with naming their villages, caves, and hills after them.
[Previous is also unsigned.]
Repeat: IF you have a REFERENCE supporting this, Sir or Madam, please cite!--and sign, if only as a courtesy to the rest of us. But realize that the naming of a place or a treasure is not good evidence that there was a real person involved. For example, the existence of several places named "Arthur's Seat" in the British Isles does not prove that King Arthur ruled there (no matter how much some of us wish it did)! Any more than calling an ancient treasure the Mask of Agamemnon proves the existence of Agamemnon. Etc.
I do note that the Mardin Museum, aka the Mardýn Museum, exists. GeorgeTSLC (talk) 17:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Persian Story

message: I have deleted the phrase "and Milo knows nothing about ali Baba" from the first sentence under "The Story" because it is apparently meaningless. If someone feels it needs to be there, it would be highly desirable to identify Milo, who is not otherwise mentioned in the article! GeorgeTSLC (talk) 17:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Milo Who?

message: The "other media" section was blanked by another editor - I can actually see his/her point and agree it is a bit out of control. On the other hand perhaps it needs a good trim rather than being completely deleted? In the meantime I have restored it, for what it is worth (not very much, I fear).--Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivial trivia 

message: The (mistaken, dare one say illiterate) misconception of Ali Baba as one of the thieves, even as their leader is, alas, very widespread indeed nowadays. The use of "Ali Baba" as slang for a thief is one obvious example - as is the Disney Aladdin (or is it the genie) with his "Ali Baba had them forty thieves" (sic, in fact sick), listing people who had helpers. I suspect every child was familiar with the protagonists of the story when you and I were little!! Alas, various comic book and cartoon "improvements" of the story over the years make this note important, just to give the original tale a plug. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ali Baba as a thief! 

message: This is a perfectly good English language word with no inherent "charge" or bias whatsoever (although like any word is can be used in a POV way - NOT the case here, evidently!!). There is no other word in English that conveys its precise meaning, which is to expurgate a work of literature (especially a classic) and modify language, plot details etc. to remove "offence" - especially to small children. (After Thomas Bowdler who produced an expurgated version of Shakespeare in 1818). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bowdlerise a charged word??? 

message: I don't think the Arab World template belongs to the heading of this article, as much as there is no template for the "Western World" on the articles of Roland or King Arthur. Thoughts?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.43.62 (talk) 08:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: One could very well have a similar template for the "Medieval World" for the articles concerned. Templates like this, where they bring together related articles, are very valuable indeed. That's MY thoughts, anyway. Point is, anything that makes this encyclopedia more useful!!! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 20:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arab world template 

message: ali is arabic name, but what is the meaning of "baba"? does it have any meaning in arabic or persians language. we should explain "baba" in the article. 
note:i suprised when saw english people use the name of "ali baba" because its sound is turkish for me. i call my father as "baba" (turkish meaning of father) and also in turkish, we use "mafya babası" which means the leader of mafia. --Ollios (talk) 18:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In Turkish baba means father/dad. --Kirov Airship (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

text: The word is defined in the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic as meaning either "pope" or "papa, father, daddy"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: the origin of name, baba?

message: Putting the gallery in the middle of this article is a bad idea and nearly guarantees that the lower sections will remain an un-encyclopedic mess.  I suggest deleting the gallery, keeping only one or two of these images in regular thumb size in the article and deleting the trivia. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically I agree - although I've trimmed the trivia and put the gallery at the bottom instead. Feel free to be a bit "bolder" if you like, I certainly won't argue!!--Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Gallery

message: Simplistically, the eastern story of Ali Baba seems vaguely similar to the western story of Robin Hood, both involving prominent & popularized leaders of criminal gangs. 66.235.38.214 (talk) 07:12, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if you take the line that the hero of the story (Ali Baba) is a brigand chief, which he isn't. The only thing they have in common is that there is a band of thieves - in Robin Hood the thieves are "goodies" and the hero is their leader, whereas here the thieves are baddies (in fact a more or less constant threat to the hero, who is an honest woodcutter). Stories from different cultures DO resemble each other quite closely sometimes, but this isn't one of them. Read the synopsis of the story! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern "Robin Hood" ? 

message: Actually - I've had a look at my modified lead - changed the Panto bit to avoid the undue weight problem you noticed. Don't honestly think it's that bad now...
Agree about those two separate sections ("Adaptations" and "In other media") that seem to have morphed out of an original "trivia" section - do they need merging - or should one of them perhaps by deleted? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:32, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's improve this article!! 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Several "authentic" retellings of the story (including Lane and Burton) do indeed mention very briefly at the beginning of the narrative that Ali and Cassim are the sons of a "Persian" merchant.   For some reason I can't confirm if Galland, who is in effect really our "original author" here, also mentions it (Burton notoriously copies Lang in places). 
But even if the mention of "Persia" is in this case part of the "tale as first told" I am not sure it is worth the mention - apart from its very low notability (Galland and other Western translators/interpolators make no significant difference between "Persian" and "Arabic" culture) it opens the whole Pandora's box of senseless (and highly chauvinistic) controversy about the origins of the "Nights". Or am I quibbling here - if other users feel that adding the word "Persian" improves the article (!?!) then it matters rather little either way? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually - we need a citation to the Galland text - without that looks like Lang (who liked adding little details like this) and Burton (who notoriously copied Lane when he felt like it). I have tried very hard to locate a copy of the Galland text of this story - there must be one somewhere, probably on line. This would settle the matter - in the meantime I think we should leave it in abeyance - for reasons outlined above. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 13:53, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't know why I called Lane "Lang". Look - I simply can't find Galland's original text in either French or literal translation - so in this case let's give "Persia" the benefit of the doubt for the moment - just hope that we don't get a rerun of the original nonsense about it being a Persian story is all! And do try to get Galland's original if you can. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 14:34, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Persian" revisited 

message: In the article's telling of the story the servant girl leads the tailor to Cassim's house. However when the tailor leads the thieves it is to Ali Baba's house. A version of the story is at https://www.bartleby.com/16/905.html which states (as seems likely) that Ali Baba moves into his brother's house once the brother is buried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.187.7.200 (talk) 12:42, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I was bothered by the apparent discrepancy.  Thanks for offering a solution with a link.  Zaslav (talk) 02:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which house was it?