Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archive 11

message: Does anyone notice in this section involving Itachi Uchiha that it says Main article: Itachi Uchiha but the the links just directs us to Itachi's Akatsuki page and not his main page with the plot overviw and stuff.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.121.42.181 (talk) 00:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page was merged due to not satisfying WP:FICT. The link to that page has been removed from this article. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 00:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: merged my ass, you just deleted the page--Mhart54com 01:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All the relevant information is already there. Anything else is extraneous plot or in-universe details that don't need to be included. In any case, read WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL before you decide to write a comment like that. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 01:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: why do you think your above me?--Mhart54com 01:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you trying to deflect the issue to a matter of personal opinion? Address the problem or don't bother replying. It helps no one when you throw unfounded accusations. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm so glad you can assume good faith with other editors. In any case, until someone satisfies WP:FICT, the article is not going to be restored. There's really no way around it; ergo, spend less time arguing here and more time searching for relevant information. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 07:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Get over yourself, Mhart. I've been here for longer than two days, I just haven't made an account until recently. Besides, as evident with you, time is clearly not an indicator of maturity. Speak Qwerty 16:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Calm down before you say something you shouldn't. The two of you are both Wikipedians, correct? If so then you should show each other some respect.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You didn't merge it, you deleted it and kept little info. And no one, except the admins, is above anyone else. Jazz Band Member 21:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sephiroth can't delete things, so the article's history and talk page still exist. That qualifies as a merge. ~SnapperTo 22:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And not even admins are above anyone please read the page on adimins and read what Jimbo has to say about them.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 22:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Orochimaru left Akatsuki before the events of naruto, and I think the itachi thing is on the sasuke's page  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue eyes gold dragon (talk • contribs) 16:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: He failed to meet WP:FICT and all that info was out of universe and therefore he could not have his own article. the disscussion is closed and a concensus was reached so until kishimoto releases some charachter creation info or he does soemthing like die.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: ~SnapperTo 21:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I might have found something. What's this about a weasel being a harbinger associated with bad fortune and Itachi meaning weasel??  Oh, i think it's a third-party source.  Now correct me if I am wrong here, but I think I stumbled on this third-party source that tells why Kishimoto chose the mane Itachi for this particular character.  Oh man.  How could we have overlooked this?? A non-WP:ILIKEIT reason for keeping the article was staring us right in the face. But of course, I have been wrong before. ItachiUchihaArticleForTheWin 06:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Itachi

message: The Akatsuki page states that Tobi is Madara Uchiha, while Tobi simply states in Chapter 364, page 18 that his power and Madara's are one and the same, i.e. "My power, Madara's power". It is a strong possibility that Tobi may simply be working for Madara or acting as a conduit for him, but regardless there is no conclusive evidence that the two characters are one and the same.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays (talk • contribs) 19:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't get it. If japanese supervillains say kono for I, it would mean: I, Uchiha Madara's power. Isn't he saying that he HAS Madara's power instead he IS Madara?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.19.19 (talk) 22:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, im going to add aswell. according to the most recent chapter at this present time in which this message was posted, Uchiha Madara was just shown in a picture as an older looking Sasuke (like in his 20's) It was also said that he was the founder of the Uchiha Clan, and was defeated by the fourth due to a discrepency. Tobi is then seen standing on a statue of Madara laughing.
Where to begin. First of all, he looks nothing like an older-looking Sasuke to me. He looks, if anything, somewhat-similar to Curse-Seal Stage 2 Sasuke. It never said he was defeated by the fourth. It said he was defeated by the FIRST. There was no mention of any discrepancy, and there was no laughing when he was standing on the statue.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.127.210 (talk) 23:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think Wikipedia should say anothing abvout him being anybody buit Tobiu until he removes his mask and says precisely who he is with no ambiguity in his word choice or context, or hwatever. Kishimoto reffered to him as 'he' at the and of chapter 370 implying that he has not yet revealed his true identity.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree, anything else besides concrete evidence would probably fall under the category of Original Research, especially if it is just non-Japanese language majors dissecting the language. Until we can get someone with a doctorate in English AND Japanese to dissect the actual phrase, its wholly original research by a non-expert. Arukan Harless 18:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tobi's Identity 

message: it was said that in chapter 369 page 7 that Pein's blood was from the Fuuma clan. I just wanted to let you know that and that Remnants of the former Amegakure were searching for Pein and trying to kill him.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Temari y (talk • contribs) 22:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we say his name is then Pein Fuma, isn't it his clans name?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 13:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The guy only said it was rumored... he never said it was a fact. Jazz Band Member 20:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, fillers DO count... interesting.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.19.19 (talk) 22:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: .....um...I wouldn't call that a filler--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 23:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pein is from the Fuuma clan 

message: You read the headline, so you know what I want done.
All over on Wikipedia it keeps saying that he's Madara Uchiha. HE'S NOT!! They've shown a real picture of madara, and that's not him, obviously.
I know that in the manga he says "He has Uchiha Madara's power... my power..." but what he actually means is that he has the SAME power as Sasuke, he is NOT saying that he is Madara.
So SOMEONE needs to get on there and change that! please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.22.27 (talk) 01:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, right after the Fourth Hokage isn't said to be Naruto's father. We've had this discussion a million times. He's Madara. Deal with it. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: So since Madara had long hair ~70 years ago and Tobi has short hair today, they're completely different people? What, do haircuts not exist in Naruto? ~SnapperTo 03:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not unless they're doing it for symbolic reasons, apparently. I think Sakura's the only cast member to actually get a haircut. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ino copies Sakura soon after that, and Lee had a ponytail when he was younger. Those are the only noticeable hair decreases that come to mind. ~SnapperTo 21:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Because someone of Pein's status would take orders from a goofy new recruit without any proof? You Can't See Me! 08:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, we do take that into account. Note that we say he "refers to himself" as said character. We may not believe he's lying, but our bases are covered regardless. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: We know this much for sure: if he isnt Madara, we know hes an uchiha becuase we've seen his sharingan more than once.side note: I hate that people kept thinkin he's obito. look, his body was crushed. Which means...HE HAS NO BODY! So even the theory that Madara inhabits his body is dumb. Granted, Orochimaru did have that one technique. But I doubt they'd use it in this. It'd be too redundent plot wise.--Chipmonk32819 September 2007  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 14:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Use some context was there really any reason for Tobi to tell Pein and Konan 'I am Uchiha Madara' if they already knew that and were working for him the whole time? he may have said 'I am Uchiha Madara's power' or reffered to the power being his, and in context it is far more likely. Plus in chapter 370, at the end, it was ambiguous about his identity. -FFFX  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 15:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Probably for the same reason that villains stereotypically tell the heroes their plans, to reveal crucial details of the plot to the audience, regardless of how unlikely it would be in a realistic scenario 66.24.226.134 23:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regardless, until he takes off his mask and Kishimoto makes it blatently obvious that he is Madara, Obito, or whoever the hell else he could be, you shouldn't be calling him Uchiha Madara because of the ambiguity of the quote and Kishimoto's reference to him as "he" at the end of 370, refusing to use a name.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 13:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Theories are not stated as per WP:V and WP:OR.  Tobi's calling himself Madara, and that's all we can verify for now. –Gunslinger47 23:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Its not a theory. Tobi said in horrifying English "I am Madara Uchiha." No theory, its stated in the manga which means as of now its fact. The Obito thing has yet to be stated aside from a few similarities put together by people on the internet, thus not being fact but Original Research while what is said in the manga is fact. Very clear.--TheUltimate3 23:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please stop saying that Tobi is Madara uchiha T_T 

message: I found a blurry summary of ch. 371. I think it says that Jiraiya encounters Deidara. But I'm not 100% certain.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 10:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: no that was Pein in Deidara's or a Deidara look alike body--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Deidara Alive? 

message: :I know this is a little off topic. BUT, for those who are tired of the stupid merg orgies that keep happenin with the naruto section on wikipedia...welllll...ther is this: [] Sooo.....if u want more info go ther...tho it does need to be more up to date ther..its getting ther. So now those complaints (at least on my part) are dropped. Also, for others who have been complainin about it, they should now as well.--Chipmonk328  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 14:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Retarded Merges and Pictures being taken down

message: Pein's new look greatly resembles Deidara. Check him out! Plus, Pein and Konan are revealed to be former students of Jiraiya (If what I read was correct. Kanji is difficult).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.204.100.226 (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The person in the following pictures does hold a slight resemblence to Deidara, specificaly in regards to his hairstyle, athough it doesn't really seem all that notable. 66.24.226.134 01:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We'll have to wait until there is a verifiable source. No original research please. σмgнgσмg 10:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm going out on a limb to say both of thsoe people are Pein's subbordinates and neither Deidara nor Pein. I mean, Piercings don't change that quickly for one, for two Deidara blew hismelf up pretty good. There wasn't any life left in the 10km radius I doubt he did anything to survive that.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 15:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: But no evidence has been given to infer Deidara's survival. Where the person from chapter 371 has a similar hairstyle to Deidara, his face really looks nothing like him. Further, this resemblence seems largely irrelevant; both Orochimaru and Madara have dark hair which covers their right eye, but this does not mean that they are the same person. 66.24.226.134 23:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: But where does one get the impression that Deidara appears in chapter 371? Where there is someone pictured who has a hairstyle similar to Deidara (though not identical), his face really looks 'nothing' like Deidara's. If anything, he resembles the Third Kazekage (who is already long dead). 66.24.226.134 20:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pein's New Look. (Deidara?)+Pein and Konan's past 

message: I think that there should be pictures of the members and the pictureof the latest face of pein or all the faces  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.23.162 (talk) 01:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Foundation seems to think otherwise. You Can't See Me! 02:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You can read, correct? ^_^ If so read the link he gave you it explains everything.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 00:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The pictures 

message: Will somebody please fix the article. The in universe banner is still there and hasn't moved once. This is because you're using tenses, implying that earlier in the series was at an earlier time, which it wasn't it was simply earlier in teh series. Somebody has to clean this up by removing 1) the membership status from each character entry. 2) the categories 'current members' and 'former members' and add 'original members' and 'changes to the Akatsuki roster' or something to that effect. Just because a character dies in chapter 360-something doesn't mean that the character is dead because the character still exists in chapter 340-something.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 15:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second the first choice, but not the second. If we were to put the two together, then we'd have to put back the Membership Status things, and it would be much more complicated to the reader to know their status. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why would you need to add the membership status back if you chnaged the categories, both need to go to achieve what must be done. You have to start with the original ten and mention teh changes to teh roster throughout the series. That's all. 'Original members' contains all members except Tobi and possibly Orochimaru, and then mention that Orochimaru left the organization before the series, and on the event of Sasori's death Tobi joined. Other than that the members have been killed off and remain unreplaced after their defeat.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 02:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that would be too confusing, and there are better ways of sorting them out, this one being one of them. With fictional series that are still running, you merely use the information in the tone from the latest chapter, book, etc. rather than from the very first chapter. Deidara, Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori, and Orochimaru left, and Tobi is thought to be dead in this current chapter, so we list them as such. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then why does Wiki have a problem with the 'in universe style' then if it's all well and good? The tenses aren't correct for this kind of article and I don't see how any of the suggestions I gave would be confusing. A short paragraph stating the simple fact that Orochimaru defected pre-series, and that Sasori died first, thus replaced by Tobi, and after that Hidan and Kakuzu were incapacitated/killed, followed by Deidara. Other than Sasori the lost members have gone unreplaced. Wiki wouldn't have a problem if it was fine as it, and I don't see too many issues within the text itself so it must be the organization. Even if I'm wrong something's gotta be done eventually to fixc the problem.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 01:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You're right... there in mention that Kakuzu had a bad habbit of cycling through partners near constantly before Hidan. Perhaps if you simply list the 'known members' and list off all members past and present... I don't know I'll have to think a little harder, but you're right, you're absolutely right. The article has come a long way and it's on the verge of having that banner removed, it just needs that final shove I think and changing the way it's organised to remove tenses would be that deciding factor I think.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In universe banner whont go away! 

message: Konan is jairyas former student but with dyed hair  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.163.8 (talk) 19:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The spoilers imply that but we should hold off adding the information until the actual scanlated version comes out. -ScotchMB 21:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not certain how legitimate these pictures are, but it would seem like they could be useful.66.24.226.134 18:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Konan's past 

message: Shouldn't we give any info about his new form?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 01:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You must not know about Wiki's trivial traditions. No information about Pein's new form will be added until the chapter comes out. Intellect Ninja 11:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But the large majoirty have not. Most people wait until the proof is out to "everyone" when there is a subbed release. No sub that the majoirity can find is equal to saying "no release". Interesting huh?--TheUltimate3 20:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: No worries. The primary thing that are trying to prevent is people adding false information and attributing it to their assumed knowledge in Japanese. When everyone sees the scans, then it can be widely confirmed, and the informatin added without significant controversy. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 23:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add on to Pein's Section 

message: Why cant people say what they want on a discussions board. he was just pointing it out to see what other people think it is not on the actual pein page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.163.157 (talk) 05:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove part about Pein looking "exactly like Deidara". 

message: In chapter 371, pain mentions that he has no love for his old teacher, Jiraiya. Isn't this means that one of the 2 unknown genins in Jiraiya's first team is Pein?Bence560 06:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Naruto was a student of Iruka. Were they ever on a team together? You Can't See Me! 06:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pain, Konan and Jiraiya

message: Just something to take in mind, every time you talk about Pein piercings you refer to them as "face-piercings" or "piercings in his face". You should note that they are not just in his face, at least in the first body he shown he also had piercings in the lower parts of his arms (seen in his first appearance, he enters the room grabbing the frame of the entrance and the sleeve of his cloak lowers a bit, revealing the piercing. Also seen when dispelling the "rain jutsu", the sleeves moves and you can see them in both arms this time). Piercings along his body could be more accurate. 22 September '07  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.60.72 (talk) 10:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. However, until his second body is seen with arm-piercings, it won't be added since detailing how each of his six bodies appears would (eventually) be cumbersome. If you see the piercings on this body let us know so we can add it. ~SnapperTo 18:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Piercings

message: does any of the other akutsiki know everything about Pein and his past?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.126.228 (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't put a space before the post; that stretches it. Do they? Probably not. But you never know. Jazz Band Member 17:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pein? 

message: PEIN AND KONAN COULD HAVE BEEN OLD TAEMMATES OF THE FOURTH TURNED TRAITORS.
IT MAKES SENSE SINCE THEY TALK THE WAY THEY DO ABOUT JARAIYA, HAVE INCREDIBLE
ABILITIES AS NINJA, AND ARE WELL AWARE OF KONOHA'S  TRADITIONS  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.145.229.171 (talk) 01:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Konan has blue hair not black, remember to sign your posts and don't talk in all caps--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 12:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is always hairdye. Jazz Band Member 13:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In Yu Yu Hakusho Kurama had black hair in teh manga and red hair in the anime. It's possible that when the anime colored the image they didn't think those two would ever amount to anything and had no ide what color they would be. Now it's coming back to bite them because it's a discontinuity error, unless conan's hair is still black in the anime.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'm not agreeing that Konan IS Jiraiya's student, but, colors mean nothing. They colored in Obito's goggles clear in the anime, and orange in the manga. In the manga, they both have their hair colored black with it pulled up in the back. Resemblance is strong. But, who knows. DarkRyan75 20:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The latest manga chapter showed that Konan and Pein were refugees of the Rain Village that was looked after by Jiraiya until they could fend for themselves. σмgнgσмg 02:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Friends 

message: And this is not meant to be a forum question, but a "Did I miss them explaining this?":
:Alright, Itachi, Tobi, Pain, Konan, Orochimaru are all Konoha missing-nin (at least, if Tobi really is Madara). Kakuzu once fought against the Hokage, and Hidan has a special hatred for them, doesn't he? Was Akatsuki built with a primarily anti-Konoha slant, or am I just seeing a pattern that really isn't there? (Well, I guess Pain was also against the Mizukage, and Deidara and Sasori against the Kazekage, but still...)KrytenKoro 01:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, maybe..? For all I know, it hasn't been explicitly implied beyond the (probably coincidential) tidbits that you mentioned above. For all I know, they want to bankrupt all of the hidden villages, not just specifically Konoha. Also bear in mind that Deidara hails from Iwagakure, not Sunagakure, and Pain hails from Amegakure (or, at the very least, has some kind of connection to it), not Mizugakure. You Can't See Me! 02:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: This webpage has (appearently legitimate) scans from chapter 372. 
http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/2007/09/spoiler-pics-naruto-372.html
66.24.231.57 19:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  372 scans 

message: all the Characters of akatsuki should each have their own main articles like Orochimaru and alot of other Naruto characters because we can read about their personality, history, abiltis and so forth.
:It pains me to admit this, but unfortunately, none of these characters has what it takes to sastisfy WP:FICT and thus they can't have an article all to themselves.  I argued this point througly with the people who did the merge on Itachi, but it seems after careful review that they were right.  It does not satisfy WP:FICT. ItachiUchihaArticleForTheWin 01:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Akatsuki 

message: From what I've read of 372, this is what is known:
Konan can grow wings from her paper, cannot fold them when wet, can shoot the feathers like bullets in a paper air-plane shape, and is Pein's apparent messegner, earning the nickname "God's Angel", god being Pein.
All three are refugees from Rain, where their parents were killed in a war (apparently the one Obito died in, too). They find the Sannin, and get food. The three ask for training, though Orochimaru suggests killing them instead, since their life will only suffer. Jiraiya instead sends Orochimaru and Tsunade off and lives with them in a hut, where they have dinner and discuss the war. Nagato remembers how this reminds him of his real family and begins to cry. Yahiko also appears defensive of Rain, wanting to stop the "crying rain" (he compares the constant rain to tears) and protect the people. The next day, however, Nagato and Yahiko go missing, and when Jiraiya and Konan find them, and Yahiko explains that a Stone Chunin tried to take their money (or that of other refugees), and Nagato killed him. Jiraiya looks at Nagato, and suddenly Pein's eyes are his. Jiraiya also hints those eyes have a major purpose, asking if he could be...?. 
Interestingly, Pein is actually Nagato, rather than Yahiko as first suspected. Yahiko has blond hair and looks alot like Pein. Nagato has black hair that usually covers his eyes. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 01:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That chapter freaked me out when i saw that eye.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 01:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nagato, Konan, and Yahiko 

message: Shouldn't we wait until it's confirmed which one of those two kids really was Pein? Nagato may have Pein's eyes, but Yahiko shares what seems to be the same ideals Pein operates by (changing the way Amegakure is run, etc). I think it would be safer to wait it out rather than to base everything on his eyes. The Splendiferous Gegiford 02:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's like saying "let's wait for conformation for that guy with the sharingan to see if he's uchiha" or something like that. i agree that maybe we should wait one more week but come on those eyes are pretty unique, like sharingan and maybe Nagato learned from Yahiko ideals. But that's just speculation on my part. And guess what... the Cubs are in the playoffs! Cheers!Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 03:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And should we not apply the same hesitance of "let's wait for conformation for that guy with the sharingan to see if he's uchiha" (as poorly written as that sentence was), for who is one of the most reknowned and earliest known sharingan users of naruto? Certainly not an uchiha, but Kakashi who had the eye of an uchiha placed within his skull. Can we not be certain this wont hold a similiar tale? I suggest holding off any jumps towards a conclusion. -Midusunknown 04:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, we don't know the exact circumstances surrounding what happens to these kids yet. It's best to hold everything off until we know exactly what happened. The Splendiferous Gegiford 05:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: did you not read the manga, it tells you what happened to them--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pretty sure it doesn't, unless you're reading it from the future. The Splendiferous Gegiford 06:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: might i ask why theory and speculation are being presented as facts? there is no proof even by statement that Tobi is Madara, or Obito. anyone can claim being Napoleon, but it doesnt mean they are. likewise we know only that Konan is Konan from what we can tell. the leader could be anyone as it seems he can jump bodies. and the light haired Pein had the eyes similar to Nagato, while NAgato had dark hair. this in itself conflicts with the assumption that he is in fact Pein/Pain. it is uncertain which if either Yahiko or Nagato are in fact Pein. WP:Crystal_Ball#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. Articles that present extrapolation, speculation, and "future history" are original research and therefore inappropriate. shadzar|Talk|contribs 06:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess they could have gone all "give me your eyes or I'll take them" or something but yeah i guess we should off on that until confirmation. Cubs are going to the pllayoffs! Cheers Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 23:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

text: From what I recall about switching bodies from Orochimaru, the eyes are a reflection of the soul, and regardless of what the bodies eyes appeared to be before, once Orochimaru's sould was in it, they became yellow and slitted and lined with purple. So far as it seems, Nagato is Pein and his eyes hold the same property as Orochimaru's as they remain the same regardless of what body he's in since Pein's been in two so far and both had those eyes, we can assume it wasn't a transplant. If it was a tarnsplant and Yahiko is Pein, then Pein 2.0 wouldn't have those freaky eyes. Dojutsu are another issue as Orochimaru claims to be able to aquire the Sharingan if he takes over the body of a Sharingan user, so those are not transfered with the soul. We can assume, if a Hyuuga were to take over soembody's body in this manner, then the body would aquire white eyes, but not the Byakugan bloodline, likewise an Uchiha would have black eyes in a different body, but not the sharingan. If Pein uses a Dojutsu with his eyes, then it's either not a bloodline, or all of his bodies have the same bloodline. If he does not use a bloodline, then his eyes just look wierd. I know there is some speculation in there, but it's not the important part of the paragraph.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.12 (talk) 02:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: About Pein's former name

message: Tobi's attitude isn't goofy anymore anyone who reads his text would imply that he still is. The moment he claimed obtaining Madara's power he gives orders and ponders on top of Madara's statue, this isn't what his article tells you. The text "After Deidara's death, Tobi is shown giving Pein, the leader of Akatsuki, orders, and he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha.[34]" should be placed at the end of his text along with his attitude changes, for the text to appear in a chronological manner. Another thing we don't know if he originates from Konohagakure. His name is not Uchiha, if it was then his article should be Tobi Uchiha and not simply Tobi or Madara Uchiha should be placed in the akatsuki page, and we know you don't have to be Uchiha to have sharingan and this is a fact (Kakashi), stating that he might be Uchiha and doing it the way it is written in the article is sloppy and it is original research. Lets wait patiently for the manga to explain. And that goes for every single character in the series. 66.50.153.104 16:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that the person who started this category was trying to suggest that Tobi was or wasn't Madara Uchiha, rather it seems that he was pointing out that Tobi does act as an entirely different person following the death of Deidara, but that you might not know that from reading this article. I myself made a similar suggestion earlier on, in that the information regarding Tobi's behavioral changes should be seperated from how he presented himself to Akatsuki, regardless of whether he is Madara or not. (On a side note, perhaps the article should read that he is inferred to be Madara, as to avoid potential speculation)66.24.231.57 05:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article state that he "refers to himself as Madara Uchiha", not that he actually is. There's a big difference there. Anyways, I don't really see why that sentence ought to be moved to the end of the paragraph. So far, the structure of Tobi's section is as following: Membership status -> Personality -> Mysteriousness. I'll get to work on rephrasing the sentence about Tobi's supposed Konohagakure origins, though. You Can't See Me! 06:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: By listing 'mysteriousness' under 'personality', this infers that he consistantly portrays the same personality traits throughout the series, that is, that the 'Tobi' currently giving orders behaves the same as the 'Tobi' introduced as Zetsu's underling (no, I am not saying they are different people, merely that he behaves differently.) Following the death of Deidara, Tobi greatly alters his demeanor from something of a comic relief to that of a more authoritative personality. Rather than describing the personality traits of 'Tobi, the good boy' and 'Tobi, who holds the Sharingan's power' interchangibly, it would seem the most informative to rearrange the section on Tobi to make this distinction clear. 66.24.231.57 23:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tobi's has changed 

message: Can someone take a look at Kabuto's information and restore the Plot info, cause it says nothing about him thats important or anything about whats presently going on and he is Orochimaru's only way to return to the series and that make him an important character, equally important as Orochimaru, maybe someone vandalized it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.50.153.104 (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's there. You Can't See Me! 06:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former Member Kabuto 

message: There is a Chinese translation of Chapter 373 at http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/ . Where the original Japanese version of the manga may be more convinent, it would seem that this could still be put to some use. 66.24.227.23 00:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you cant put that in yet till it is out in english--Acetylseryltyrosylserylisoleucylthreonylsery 01:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it's out in English. Jazz Band Member 20:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter 373