Talk:R-77

message: Much is written about Comparision with AMRAAM rather than actual R-77 description.
:It's just local sort of sport - find a pair of USA/USSR devices and compare them to death :-) --jno 13:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think it had to do with the fact that many military statistics are rather meaningless except in comparison with comparable weapons. As an example, it could be written that the R-77 uses "potato-masher" fins. That's nice but it is absolutely meaningless, the more so to a layman (and encyclopedias must cater to the layman even more than the expert). I can then write that the configuration gives excellent maneuverability. That's nice but again unless you already know the significance (in which case you aren't that much of a layman) it's absolutely meaningless to you. If I write that the layout is superior in maneuverability to the "delta" configuration, that's better but you still have no clue because you may have no idea who uses the delta. But if I name the AIM-120, the significance is much more easily grasped and now you have information, not just data. Kazuaki Shimazaki 17:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even in comparision it remains meaningless. You must compare "available overload" (still dunno english term for it) numeric values of the missile vs its targets (keeping in mind overall stability of missile control system, available energy of its engine, and power of warhead), not the form/technology of control surfaces. Just because efficiency of an AA/SA missile is not limited/defined by it maneurability. Hence, I see almost no reasons for such a "comparisions" in enciclopedic articles. Anyway, it's matter of POV - what should an eciclopedia provide: data, info, evaluations, POVs or whatever else. I prefer raw data accompanied by refs to "comparable" (same time, same functions) devices. If one need a comparision, she can do it on her own. --jno 10:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be a comparison but in the context that these two missiles are extremely similar in terms of capability and function. They're both sophisticated, latest generation, maneuverable and versatile medium range missiles with terminal active radar homing and anti-jam capabilities.58.107.102.215 02:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: why so much comparision

message: "The use of IR tracking in the terminal mode might be logical because at extended ranges the data link between the launch fighter and the missile might be interrupted, or the host radar may not detect jamming."
Wow, that is nonsense. Whoever wrote that seems to have thought of this missile as being semi-active laser-guided. It's active laser guided, and an IR sensor provides no publicly known advantage over an active radar  in the case of data link loss.
"the host radar may not detect jamming"? What is this supposed to mean? 
Actually an IR-guided version makes sense against low RCS targets, targets with good ECM and decoys, due to the use of IRST by MiG-29 and Su-27's anyway and because it's simply an alternative to avoid having all eggs in one basket. 87.79.136.71 (talk) 11:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: nonsense line

message: This article appears to be commercially motivated from beginning to end. Not only is there a combination of marketing and WP:PEACOCK language, but there is much original research, some of which doesn't belong in an encyclopedia -- even with proper inline references -- which this article does not have. (Example: "Meanwhile, Western suppliers have been pushing into some traditionally Russian markets--while major customers such as India and China have been pursuing their own missile programs such as the Astra and the PL-12, respectively.")
I worked at a NASA research center specializing in aircraft for many years. Although I am not an expert in missiles, it seems highly suspect that there are missiles that would be effective in practice against a Patriot. How would such missiles be deployed? How could they activate within the few seconds necessary? I.e., it's a lie that in practice they would ever be used to thwart a Patriot. 
The external links (that I can read) have very brief technical data. None of which addresses the article problems.  Piano non troppo (talk) 06:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree this article is terrible, I think it is important to point out that your assumptions about the Patriot aren't that realistic. Most missiles only maintain top speed for the short period at the start, while they burn their rockets out. The Patriot is unlikely to be an exception so its flight time to a max range target would be at least 3 minutes. This is ample time to detect and fire upon a target that weighs as much as a small car and has a flame the size of a bus coming out the end. The difficulty is hitting something travelling at 1.6km/p/s. I assume ... the intention is to intercept on a head on course because a tail chase would be fruitless for an R-77 which is 1 entire mach slower. And this intention is PROBABLY helped by the fact that a Patriot travels towards a target, not 'evasively'. So if the plane is the target ... its pretty much a straight shot albeit with a lot of risk involved!--Senor Freebie (talk) 03:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much for responding, Senor Freebie. I was genuinely puzzled how a case could even be made. And you, at least have supplied some sort of framework for a possibility. Two basic queries about the hypothetical you put forward -- which apply equally to the Vympel R-77 and a hypothetical "Patriot killer". 1) If the Vympel-type missile is so much faster, why not use it, instead of the Patriot, to shot down ballistic missiles? It seems hard to believe that after decades of international research and development on the Patriot, the Russians working alone have come up with an alternative that's vastly better. If it's really that good, let's get started with production -- since nothing can shoot down a Vympel R-77 (?) 2) The pragmatic problem: I am Bad Country X. I'm going to land a nuclear missile on the Galapagos Islands. My enemy Z, has discovered my terrible plan, and ringed the islands with Patriots. But, aha!, Bad Country X has spies that found out about the Patriot deployment. Now all I have to do is place Vympel R-77s to shoot down the Patriots ... and I'll deploy them ... uh ... where? Piano non troppo (talk) 04:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not quite as simple as that. You're missing a few essential facts. For example, the Patriot missile is a ground launched SAM system and while it is the only system that has reputedly shot down a short range ballistic warhead in an actual war it is not the only one in production currently that has done so in tests or the one with the best record / ACTUAL capabilities. The R-77 however is NOT one of those missiles. It is distinctly different inpurpose and capabilities. For starters it is an air to air missile designed to be fired at fast, hot, maneouverable targets, very much like another missile. Ballistic warheads in the terminal phase however are NOT maneouvreable, hot or fast. They are incredibly fast. Moving at paces up to 10 times the speed of a jet or missile. Without the tracking systems or the right circumstances even the Patriot doesn't stand a hope of hitting one. Fortunately, during the 1990/91 Gulf War the USA had a variety of data linked detection systems, from AWACS, to satellites, to on the ground intelligence, to powerful ground radar capable of detecting incoming satellites providing them with an accurate picture of the trajectory of incoming missiles often as soon as they were launched. An R-77 on the other hand is only likely to have an aircrafts radar or IR systems. For a 'fast' (not incredibly fast) target this COULD be enough in special circumstances. However a Patriot moves slightly faster then the R-77's typical intended target so it wouldn't be an easy shot. That said, shooting ballistic missiles down with other missiles is a far tougher task due to the speed difference. The ONLY way you can pull it off is if you're between the launcher and the target and can fire before the warhead passes you.--Senor Freebie (talk) 12:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Agreed, someone needs to find an article that outlines the circumstances an R-77 could shoot down another missile in and perhaps any comments or estimations on its chances of success. Also, something to consider, it seems to be a significant factor how effective an anti-aircraft warhead is against a missile. Given wings are smaller and control surfaces perhaps tougher on a missile it is probably harder to destroy. This was the experience, to some degree of the Patriot when defending against SCUD's. There has been claims that even when it achieved a hit it did not stop the detonation of the warhead.--Senor Freebie (talk) 01:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Though not stated it seems that the claimed ability to hit a PATRIOT or another AAM is intended as a self-defense mechanism for the launch aircraft. It's not completely outside the realm of possibility that such an automated defense system could be placed in a fighter that would fire the missile response to the aircraft's radar detecting an inbound missile. The problem is the practical application of this system as modern SAMs and AAMs are designed to attack their targets from above. This could put them outside the detection limits of the radar and the aircraft would have to face the missile to launch it's own R-77. As the missile is heading toward the aircraft the speed problems would be reduced especially given that an inbound missile would be slowing down from it's burnout velocity.Righteous9000 (talk) 06:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias, advertisement?

message: Quoting from the article:
:Like most AAM weapons, the claimed range is for a non-maneuvering target, at a high altitude, and probably on a head on aspect with a respectable closing rate. Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range, but the same applies to the AMRAAM.
If we assume the laws of aerodynamics weren't somehow canceled out during the AIM-120's development cycle, why is there a need for a citation addressing this point?
In other words, why is there a need to prove that the AMRAAM is susceptible to the laws of physics?
::No reason other than the usual demands for citations from editors who do not agree with the statement in question - even if it is a self evident point fact...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.10.148 (talk) 22:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation needed?

message: Just thought I post this and see what yall think.
"The missile is designed to engage fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, airplanes and helicopters of military transport aviation in air combat at any time of day or night, under VFR and IFR conditions, from any direction against an earth or sea background in hostile EW and maneuver environments. The RVV-AE missile can intercept targets flying at speeds of up to 3,600 km/h at altitudes ranging from 0.02 to 25 km. The minimum range of aft hemisphere launch is 300 m. The
maximum vertical separation of targets and the carrier in level flight may reach 10 km. The RVV-AE does not impose limitations on the carrier g-load at the instant of launch. The missile is of a normal configuration with folding gridwork control surfaces, which permits its conformal and intrafuselage carriage on the parent aircraft and determines its high agility. The RVV-AE is fitted with an active radar homing head and radio corrected inertial navigation control system, which permits on-trajectory target lockon (multichannel ability) and missile retargeting. The active radar homing head enhances the carrier's independence and effectively implements the fire-and-forget principle. The RVV-AE considerably outperforms foreign Sparrow, Sky Flash, Matra missiles and, by a number of parameters, the American AIM-120A AMRAAM. The RVV-AE missile increases the effectiveness of aircraft in air combat, long-range inclusive, owing to its multichannel ability, high independence and ability of in-flight repointing to a nonengaged or more vital (dangerous) target."
Max launch range
(at fighter/bomber type target), km 50/80
Launch weight, kg 175
Warhead weight, kg 22,5
Warhead type rod (with multiple
HEAT munitions)
Guidance system active radar
Target g-load, g 12
Fighter type target kill probability 0.6 - 0.7
Overall dimensions
(length x diameter x fin span), m 3.6 x 0.2 x 0.75
Note, this inventory catalog is of a pure Russian source. The version I obtained was translated.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Victory in Germany (talk • contribs) 04:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Description about the Vympel from the Orujie Katalog

message: The AA missile range issue exists because the most of people don’t understand how firing conditions are important. For example: AIM-120A has a max range of 20km near ground and 120km at 20km altitude.
For example: R-77 missile is claimed to have 80km range. In fact at most usable firing conditions the range is only 35km. This is a source from a Russian Mig-29 manual(for R-27R missile - just to picture how range changes with altitude and apsect): http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3573/86610817.jpg
As you can see – at 10km altitude or a head on, high closing speed shot you can achieve 35km range. However manufacturer claims 70-80km range. This is because such range is achieved at 20km altitude where the air is thinner and the missile produces less drag.
Here are charts for AIM-120A and R-77. http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1328/aim120ranges.gif  --  http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1843/r7722y.jpg  As you can see AMRAAM has ~20% greater range than the R-77. There are two reasons for that: R-77 is 10% heavier but has only 5% bigger motor, so despite bigger size the R-77 doesn’t have better fuel fraction! Second thing is that it is bigger and has lattice fins and this combination produces a lot of drag. More drag=shorter range.
Exec99 (talk) 13:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: True ranges

message: As well as upgraded air-to-air systems, TRV will showcase an extended-range version of its Kh-35/3M-24 (AS-20 Kayak/SS-N-25 Switchblade) anti-ship missile. The Kh-35UE will have a maximum engagement range of 260 km., compared with the 130 km. range for the basic Kh-35. Zvezda-Strela, the company which originally designed the Kh-35/3M-24, is also now part of TRV. In 1997, company literature discussed the 3M-24E1 variant of the missile as part of the Uranium anti-ship missile system for surface ships. This proposed version of the weapon had a claimed range of range of 250–300 km.
This appears to be from a sales brochure of some kind and it does not relate to the R-77. Unless someone can come up with a valid reason for leaving it I will delete it. If you want to discuss TRV's products then start a page for that company.Righteous9000 (talk) 00:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: What does this have to do with R-77?

message: I've noticed this page has a "Comparison with AIM-120 AMRAAM" section while the reciprocal is not the case with the AMRAAM page. Is there any reason this is even needed? I believe not since there is no such counterpart on the AMRAAM page. Additionally, there is information in it that is suspect at best. The ranges for the "R-77M Ramjet" or RVV-AE-PD come from Russian sources but there is another name listed in the text. Kopp uses Russian sources to make the tables and statements on his pages. Here is such a statement," A rocket-ramjet variant of the missile has been in development since the 1990s, as a counter to the EU Meteor. Designated the RVV-AE-PD, and often labelled the R-77M, this weapon is claimed to achieve an A-pole range of 86.5 NMI. It is unclear what the production status of this model is."
If Kopp states a weapon is claimed to have a certain capability then he is obviously not the originator of that information. If the information is to be included it should be cited as such. The simple fact is that it comes from a Russian arms brochure. Additionally, Kopp makes the following statements on the site with regards to the range, "The Vympel R-77M-PD RVV-AE-PD (Povyshlenayya Dal'nost') ramjet Adder is credited with an A-pole range of around 80 nautical miles. This missile is a direct derivative of the R-77 series, but like the MBDA Meteor for the Eurofighter Typhoon, employs ramjet propulsion to extend its burn duration and range. It will provide much higher endgame G capability than the baseline R-77 airframe."
So, is it 86.5nm or only "around 80"?. That's a difference of almost ten percent. It's not trivial. The fact is Kopp doesn't know. He is just quoting the media guides for the various systems. 
Further, it is not really a good idea to compare a missiles that has been fired in tests and is scheduled to be delivered in June 2011 (AIM-120D) with one that doesn't really exist except on paper (R-77M).-120D Tests
I found the completed statement under the Range part of this section as well. It follows, "The R-77's main superiority compared to the AIM-120 AMRAAM  (or at least, the published data available on the main production versions, the AIM-120A and AIM-120B), is in range. The longer range is because the R-77 is a larger 200 mm vs 178 mm (8 vs 7 in), heavier 175 vs 150 kg (386 vs 335 lb) missile than the AMRAAM  and contains more powerful propellant. Like most AAM weapons, the claimed range is for a non-maneuvering target, at a high altitude, and probably on a head on aspect with a respectable closing rate. Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range." Range Claim I can't help but notice a very important part of the statement, which is highlighted in bold, has been left out. The A and B versions have been out of production for some time now and are not representative of the capabilities of -120C much less -120C-7 or -120D.
In short, the Comparison with AMRAAM Section belongs on this discussion page and not in the main article. Hopefully, someone can rectify this before I do it.--Righteous9000 (talk) 04:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: On your first question, Kopp uses very specific grammar. "Claimed - 160 km" and "Credited - 148 km". You cannot state that he does not know, because he could of gotten the 160 km from your theory of a Russian brochure and the 148 km from Russian tests. And I think you are also doing that section no good by only choosing to remove the citation for the R-77M's range claim and completely ignoring the AIM-120D's range claim which doesn't even have a citation at all. Also, if you wish for a non-Kopp citation of the R-77M's range, you can have this:  http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2356&catid=262
Second, you should know that they are not comparing R-77 v.s. AIM-120C-7 or AIM-120D. They are comparing baseline models, R-77 v.s. AIM-120A. Unless you wish to compare the latest of the latest, then we can arrange that, but as it stands, we are comparing with the AIM-120A. If you'd like, we could include that in the opening sentence for the section, to state that it is a comparison with the AIM-120A and not any other variant.Victory in Germany (talk) 07:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I did not write the second paragraph of the Range comparison section so I would not know. But your simple deletion of the R-77M's range claims and your complete ignorance of the AIM-120D's claim is the problem. Anyways, you're going to have to show your proof that the R-77M does not exist. As hard as that might seem, you will also have to find proof that the AIM-120D's range is supposedly 120 km. So, until any of that is found by you, the main gist of that 2nd paragraph should stay as it is, grammar edits are welcome. Victory in Germany (talk) 16:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

text: As I have stated before, if you do not want Kopp, go to warfare.ru, they make the same claim. Also, a simple search of google will yield your desired results, and the ranges for the AIM-120D would also come to question as you also have no proof of it's range. And, deletion of an entire section without discussion would be a violation of Wikipedia's policy. Just a warning. As I have stated before, the comparison between the AIM-120D and the R-77M1 does not need to be there, as you have not even provided the slightest hint of the AIM-120D's range, thus, it is an uncited and untrustworthy estimate. So, I will revert your revision and delete the 2nd paragraph of the Range section. Victory in Germany (talk) 08:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

text: It might be me, but what I think they meant was that the "ramjet version of the R-77 still matches the AIM-120D, (but has it's) range extended to 170-180 km." If any thing, they might actually be referencing to a further development of the R-77M. But no, there has already been arguments against a comparison section, but I do not see why not. Many other articles have comparison sections(although they do it with a chart). If you wish, I or someone else could reformat the Comparison section to a non-bias and only numbers based comparison. Victory in Germany (talk) 13:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparison with AMRAAM Section

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