Talk:Terri Schiavo case/Archive 37

message: Regarding the addition of the NPOV flag, the neutrality of this  paragraph is disputed:
:In April 2000, in the midst of the guardianship challenge, Schiavo, widely described as the "brain-damaged Florida woman" [25] at the heart of this legal battle, was admitted to a Pinellas County, Florida hospice [26], a facility, which in her state of Florida, is typically only legally allowed to admit terminally ill patients. [27]
Specifically, the phrase "typically only legally" qualifies as weasel words that imply the transfer was not typical and was illegal. The courts and guardian ad litems appointed to have Terri's best interests at heart never found the transfer to be illegal or inappropriate.
Since the page is currently locked, no changes can be made to correct this paragraph. FuelWagon 16:27, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV flag

message: It appears from my reading of this entire page (yes, I do read every single diff), that Both Marskell and Taxman are saying that I am insisting on the current version of the hospice paragraph (the one that uses the "typically legally" language), which says (in the strong editor's voice) that the hospice is "typically only legally for terminal folk" or to that effect. Now, while that sentence is not inaccurate, I agree that it could be construed as POV, and I'm upset that I have been slandered -er, libeled, and my character defamed by having been misquoted:
I do not insist that the current (locked) version be kept: In case you haven't read my posts, I have offered a compromise, which grants FuelWagon's insistent request to quote only the major players, and I have further agreed to not insist that the language describes Terri as " widely described as the 'brain-damaged Florida woman'."
However, we have Marskell and Taxman simply suggesting that this paragraph be deleted in its entirety, with no mention of the hospice. Let me introduce you to a novel word: NO.
I'm not being mean, but here's the deal: The main point about Terri was that she was this somehow-famous woman in a hospice; but, really, why did she go there? Were there any objections? As Ann has eloquently pointed out in the past, the article never tells us why, and, no, this doesn't belong in some side-article; it is the main point of the issue: Why in the Sam Hill did this woman get in a hospice? What were the arguments of both sides to this issue?
The article absolutely has to tell us somewhere (in chronological order of event reporting) that she was placed in a hospice, and the events surrounding it; The article never did that until I came on the scene, lol. (No, I'm not claiming special intelligence or expertise, but I know a glaring omission when I see one.)
Homework to any editor who wants to discuss this matter: Read Talk:Terri_Schiavo#Gordon.27s_objections, where I show the current version, my proposed suggestion, and describe how Wagon's version is similar but lacking one key element on this key hospice topic. THEN, look about two-thirds the way down in the Talk:Terri_Schiavo#Break_Down section to see my ADDITIONAL compromise, OK? Then we can talk.
Additionally, I think Wagon is about right on the intro: It can be tweaked, as others suggests, but we don't have to put it all in the first sentence. Oh, by the way, we did have a good intro, with the "these things sparked debate" type intro, which was accepted by a narrow concensus in the past, but Wagon, on the losing side of the vote, kept arguing and reverting, and finally got that section deleted. You can look Talk:Terri_Schiavo#FuelWagon to see what happened, and that is why I am not fully confident that this concensus will be honored. However, I do NOT disagree with Wagon on explaining the other points of view. If you actually read my proposed replacement, you should see that it has this sentence: "The court eventually ruled A-B-and-C." OK, now, is it OK that the truth is told about me when I do not object to having other points of view being reported? I'm easy-going, and open to discussing matters, but please do not misquote me; With all due respect, the hospice placement is perhaps one of the key issues in this whole matter: THAT is what precipitated and caused the debate about her; it should be reported, along with the reactions by ALL the parties, not just one or the other, and NO, it won't take twenty-paragraphs to do: My proposal is pretty short, he heh, eh?--GordonWattsDotCom 23:15, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from Gordon 

message: ===Reporting hospice placement: Key event or not?===
The Second item is a surprise to me: I thought it was apparent that we needed to mention the key events, but apparently there is dispute.
(Notes: Please keep this section clear of comments; We can talk in a section below it -please only place votes here.)
*SHOULD the description of events tell Wikipedia readers that Terri Schiavo was placed into a hospice at all, or, instead, should we keep it a secret?
(In alpha-numeric order, here are the current editors -did I leave anyone out? YES, moderators get to vote - especially if it's a tie situation.)
*Ann Heneghan: It appears you are voting YES, but this is a tentative vote unless otherwise noted: "In my opinion, the article should definitely mention that she was transferred to a hospice...a very tired Ann Heneghan (talk) 18:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  THE Voting Booth on SEVERAL POINTS OF CONCERN--DISPUTE 

message: The Second item is a surprise to me: I thought it was apparent that we needed to mention the key events, but apparently there is dispute.
(Notes: Please keep this section clear of comments; We can talk in a section below it -please only place votes here.)
*SHOULD the description of events tell Wikipedia readers that Terri Schiavo was placed into a hospice at all, or, instead, should we keep it a secret?
(In alpha-numeric order, here are the current editors -did I leave anyone out? YES, moderators get to vote - especially if it's a tie situation.)
*Ann Heneghan: It appears you are voting YES, but this is a tentative vote unless otherwise noted: "In my opinion, the article should definitely mention that she was transferred to a hospice...a very tired Ann Heneghan (talk) 18:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reporting hospice placement: Key event or not?

message: This is the Third item, in this series of requests to vote:
*Ann Heneghan: You said "In my opinion, the article should definitely mention that she was transferred to a hospice, and that the Schindlers, their lawyers, and the organizations that supported them argued that this was improper – they may even have said illegal; let's find the reference...Ann Heneghan (talk) 18:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What to mention in the section about hospice transfer, if approved by above vote

message: This is the Fourth item, in this series of requests to vote:
This section is ready to go, but we aren't. We need to address the first three areas above, and then we can discuss and vote on things that really are unnecessary fluff -and bloat.--GordonWattsDotCom 22:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Extra stuff to go, reduce article size

message: I requested an unlock for this page which has yet to be acted on. Perhaps too hasty, but it can't be held hostage as has been pointed out repeatedly. I want to suggest this:
* Gordon has two edits on this page in any 24 hour period. Any edit counts and you cannot list anything as minor. Edits cannot involve more than two third-level sections (or second-level if not further sub-divided).
* Gordon has one talk addition in any 24 hour period. It cannot exceed six lines on the talk page (about 120 words).
Please support or oppose
*I support discussion about --and voting on --the major points of contention. Since no one did, then I ranted and raved, asking (begging) people to discuss & VOTE -and they did NOT --they merely talked about it. I've removed your inappropriate language, and replaced it with a euphemism; While this is wrong, I can sense and feel your frustration, but you are blaming me for the page lock when it was partly precipitated by FuelWagon; With only one of us or the other, it would not have happened, but you are wrong to characterize me as always reverting; I rarely revert, and save that for important matters. Now, if you want me to stop ranting and raving, and using up space on the page, please vote on the matters above. Just like in Board meetings, a person can propose a vote, and, if it is seconded by another person --it can go to a vote. Since all the matters in my "voting section" above are seconded by others as issues of importance (whether or not they agree with me on how to vote), then it's time for you ro vote more --discuss more --talk about these distractions less. You want me to take less space up in talk -I fully agree, but it's your move. You have talked ABOUT fixing the problem, but you have done little to fix it, forcing me to sort-of "guess" at your positions on certain matters. Let's get the show on the road, and we can come to concensus on these issues -or determine that concensus can't be reached. Now, do your part to contribute: I've gone to extensive trouble to set up the voting booth. By the way, Marskell, --in spite of your long-winded anger, and LACK OF VOTING after much discussion, thank you for at least not defacing my voting booth above. Now, it is your civic duty to vote: I've placed "tentative" voted for you, but we've already found out the hard way that I can't read your mind, and I apologize big-time for misrepresenting you and Taxman. Now do your civic duty -do or do not -there is no "try." I'm finished commenting for now -it's your move.--GordonWattsDotCom 00:53, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gordon, people can't spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, on wikipedia, so yelling at them for "not voting" when you just put up your request for a vote a few hours ago is an unwarranted attack. I actually don't have time to respond beyond that right now. FuelWagon 01:51, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I do have reason to yell, but I did NOT yell for the most part. (Yelling is done with capitol letters, LIKE THIS!!) Why do I have justification to yell and get upset? Because people really did have a chance to vote, by making a voting template like I did -and furthermore, Marskell saw the voting template and chose not to vote, instead, placing comments about other matters under the template. The page was protected in the "Revision as of 08:59, 7 September 2005," and yet, over five days later, still few if any votes; I'm trying to keep us from spinning our wheels, and, instead, get constructive action like Jackson, dig? "I actually don't have time to respond beyond that right now." OK, take your time, no problemo. PS: While I feel justified in getting upset, I am trying to be polite and helpful, so please don't think I'm super mad at anyone, you or fellow editors -frustrated, yes --mad, no.--GordonWattsDotCom 02:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think that if everyone calms down and try to explain what we even are trying to decide here. While I was asked to come here and see what is going on, but I am just lost with all of this debate. But if this is about Terri being in a "hospice," that term was used by the news. Maybe, what we could do is just write an whole article about the hospice debate and look at relevant laws surrounding it. Zach (Sound Off) 02:30, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Zach, please read out talk page here, and then check out: Talk:Terri_Schiavo#Reporting_hospice_placement:_Key_event_or_not.3F.--GordonWattsDotCom 02:43, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Do you agree to such restrictions on how often you can edit?? By the way, since you are so stressed out that you don't want a reply to your message on your talk page, please rest assured that I answered you here in the Revision as of 09:18, 13 September 2005. I've archived my page, to reduce clutter, and you would miss it. If you don't want me to reply, then don't post something objectionable: If everyone had come to concensus a week ago, I would have "zero" posts in the talk page; if threatening a person with limited edits is not something you'd like done to yourself, so, instead, try persuasion. It's more effective, and also, earn our respect, like I have: I've spent untold hours not only editing the page, but personally traveling to Terri Schiavo's grave site -and creating the Terri_Schiavo#Notes_and_references section all by myself -and repairing it when others got the links mixed up. Read my words carefully, because typing on my end is even harder than reading on your end. (Besides, when I post a reply to you, others will be bound to see it, so you ought not to miss out.) If you think I'm too harsh, maybe you can travel out to the grave site and create a "references" section --and set up and manage a "vote" section, etc. You have it easy: Chill out and relax. So, would you like to have your edits limited, eh?--GordonWattsDotCom 09:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So no then? Marskell 10:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you're serious, then I will agree to this -if it should apply to all of us. However, the moderators must agree to this as well, but think about it -you might limit yourself too much. OK: Yes, if "Two edits on this page in any 24 hour period," etc. applies to all of us -we can try out this new method: If it works, you will be famous for the "Marskell Method."--GordonWattsDotCom 10:41, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll agree to it for myself. Marskell 11:05, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll agree to it, and 2 edits a day is probably too little if someone is actually improving, but we can expand that if the article is improving. Lets also make it clear that changing the meaning of a paragraph back to substantially what you wrote before is considered a revert for the purposes here. Holding moderators to this standard isn't a good idea because someone's got to police the thing, but so be it. - Taxman Talk 11:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving on