Talk:Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps

message: I've got two images here from the outcome of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Raidillon. I figure you guys would know better than I would on where/how to place them. --Wafulz 22:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Images saved from article deletion

message: It is hard to believe that the German drivers Stuck and Mass talked to each other in English. In German the words for human body-parts and parts of a car's body are quite different. Refering to human remains one would say "Körperteile" whereas exterior car parts are "Karosserieteile", "Verkleidungsteile" or simply "Autoteile". The German expressions for human-body and car-body simply do not match like they do in English. In German a car doesn't have a body, it rather has a "Karosserie" or a "Verkleidung".
They might have used the German word for parts which is in both cases just "Teile". So maybe Stuck told Mass to watch out for parts around Masta. Only that way Mass had two options to consider. But who knows, maybe they really used to talk English and not their mother-tongue which happens to be the same. At least this is not impossible. It would be interesting to find out. 
Another point is that some sources state Stuck and Mass shared a car in this race. In 1973 Stuck drove a BMW togehter with Chris Amon and Jochen Mass had a contract with a Ford team where he joined forces with John Fitzpatrick. This adds further doubts to the story.
=== Crashes of 1966 and 1973 ===
I am afraid this account about the Masta kink contains some factual inaccuracies. 
When Jackie Stewart crashed his car during the first lap of the 1966 F1 GP, it happened in the Burnenville turn, which is a very fast and long turn.  If fact, that year, when the start was given, the cars started in dry race condition.  However, due to the length of the track, it often happened at Francorchamps that some parts of the track could be wet while others were not.  This is exactly what happened that year.  When the cars started, there was a rainstorm over the hamlet of Burnenville and the track became wet at this place, but it was still dry on the start line. During the first lap of the race, the drivers entered Burnenville almost at full speed only to suddenly find a wet track.  If I recall well, at least 4 drivers crashed, among which J. Steward.  His car ended indeed upside down, but not in the cellar and not even in the courtyard of the farm (which by the way lays on the left of the track and – at least – 3 or 4 meters below the level of the track).  But since there were several cars involved, it took several minutes before one could extract Jackie from his car.  And I can easily think that for him these few minutes have seemed to be hours.  Since them, he really hated the track.  Another driver, Jo Siffert if I recall well, was also in a very uncomfortable position.  The front of his car (including the front wheels) was over the farm courtyard, while the back was still on the track, the whole being in an unstable balance.  I can’t recall who the other drivers involved were, but Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier could have been involved as well.  In fact, other drivers too got crashes during that race and only 5 managed to get points.  Altough a few more actually finished the race, but with insufficient distance covered.
:Stewart was rescued by Bob Bondurant, after Bondo borrowed a spanner from a spectator in order to remove the BRM's steering wheel. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hans-Peter Joisten and Roger Dubos were killed at Malmedy; the other 1973 fatality was that of Massimo Larini at Les Combes. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

text: Léon Dernier, who used sometimes to race under the pseudonym "Eldé".  Finished 3rd at Le Mans in 1962 with the equally-pseudonymous "Beurlys" (real name Jean Blaton). He was killed in the 1969 24H while driving a Mazda. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion merged from [[Masta Kink]] <small>([[User:Pyrope|Pyrope]] 14:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC))</small>

message: I am afraid this account about the Masta kink contains some factual inaccuracies. 
When Jackie Stewart crashed his car during the first lap of the 1966 F1 GP, it happened in the Burnenville turn, which is a very fast and long turn.  If fact, that year, when the start was given, the cars started in dry race condition.  However, due to the length of the track, it often happened at Francorchamps that some parts of the track could be wet while others were not.  This is exactly what happened that year.  When the cars started, there was a rainstorm over the hamlet of Burnenville and the track became wet at this place, but it was still dry on the start line. During the first lap of the race, the drivers entered Burnenville almost at full speed only to suddenly find a wet track.  If I recall well, at least 4 drivers crashed, among which J. Steward.  His car ended indeed upside down, but not in the cellar and not even in the courtyard of the farm (which by the way lays on the left of the track and – at least – 3 or 4 meters below the level of the track).  But since there were several cars involved, it took several minutes before one could extract Jackie from his car.  And I can easily think that for him these few minutes have seemed to be hours.  Since them, he really hated the track.  Another driver, Jo Siffert if I recall well, was also in a very uncomfortable position.  The front of his car (including the front wheels) was over the farm courtyard, while the back was still on the track, the whole being in an unstable balance.  I can’t recall who the other drivers involved were, but Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier could have been involved as well.  In fact, other drivers too got crashes during that race and only 5 managed to get points.  Altough a few more actually finished the race, but with insufficient distance covered.
:Stewart was rescued by Bob Bondurant, after Bondo borrowed a spanner from a spectator in order to remove the BRM's steering wheel. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hans-Peter Joisten and Roger Dubos were killed at Malmedy; the other 1973 fatality was that of Massimo Larini at Les Combes. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

text: Léon Dernier, who used sometimes to race under the pseudonym "Eldé".  Finished 3rd at Le Mans in 1962 with the equally-pseudonymous "Beurlys" (real name Jean Blaton). He was killed in the 1969 24H while driving a Mazda. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crashes of 1966 and 1973 

message: The track record is the fastest lap not the pole time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.75.167 (talk) 20:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Track record

message: Removed incorrect reference to 3 drivers being killed in 1972 24 Hours of Spa. This in fact happened in 1973.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.65.199 (talk) 23:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small edit 

message: What constitutes a lap record?
The right panel states that Chris Amon set the lap record for the old circuit in 1970 in a March with a time of 3:27.4. This may be the fastest lap in a Formula One car, but is not the fastest lap.
The body text under the section "The Triangle" states the lap record belongs to Henri Pescoloro. I've done a bit of research to try and confirm this claim and believe this refers to the 1973 Spa 1000km, during which he clocked a time of 3:13.4 in a Matra MS670 http://wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/wscc/ms1973.html#5http://speedhunters.com/archive/2008/09/30/temple-of-speed-gt-gt-spa-the-old-circuit-and-the-porsche-917.aspx. However, I've found another source http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/track-thoughts/67e840df09868c6e1fc47b90ace7d441 which claims that during Friday practice for the same race, Jacky Ickx did a lap in 3:12.7 in a Ferrari 312PB. I've not been able to verify this anywhere else but if it's true does that count as a lap record?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazysnailboy (talk • contribs) 15:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Practice and qualifying laps do not count towards lap record. But if the Pescorolo Matra lap was recorded during a race then sure it can supersede the Amon lap. --Falcadore (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Pescarolo's lap was indeed recorded during the race and is still the official record of the "old" track. --Lebob-BE (talk) 21:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lap records? 

message: I think we should also add the circuit record before the 2007 Formula One season when the circuit length was 6.976 km. --Peroxwhy2gen (talk) 02:37, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: We'd need one pre-2004 as well - the chicane has been redesigned twice. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 07:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: More than twice. --Falcadore (talk) 10:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, sort of. There are several configurations in Forix, but the actual track has only changed twice (since the chicane was added) - the other changes are to the pit entry. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 12:25, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circuit before 2007 

message: Currently, the three maps showing the circuit at three different times in the past.  The one in the infobox is a different orientation to the other two.  I do not know if we have a default orientation for F1 circuits (north to the top, or maybe start/finish to the bottom for example)and maybe it would vary from circuit to circuit.  But I do think that within an article all the maps should have the same orientation.  I do not know how difficult this would be to achieve, but I think we should aim for it.  Kiltpin (talk) 12:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be nice, but it's unlikely to happen as no-one is producing modifying maps anymore. --Falcadore (talk) 14:29, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

text: Images are generally owned by their original authors so any mods would likely have to be done by them, and as mentioned the map composers generally no longer contribute regularly to wikipedia. --Falcadore (talk) 03:53, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Track Map 

message: Can we please do something good with this table? A random selection of fast laps from races only held in the last five years of one of the older and most famous racetracks in the world adds nothing encyclopedic to the article. Fastest laps without context are a significant statistic to individual races (and are as much if not more an achievement of driver rather than car), but not to the circuit. The universally accepted statistic for individual laps at a race track is lap record. A table of those would be more valuable to this article than a collection of fast laps. --Falcadore (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sample fast laps 

message: There is a little by-[lay around the addition of this data
Event                                  	Class        	Time    	Car/bike
2011 25 Hours of Spa                   	Fun Cup      	3:00.41 	Volkswagen Beetle TDI
2011 6 Heures Moto                     	ONK Superbike	2:25.629	BMW S1000RRwww.alpeadriamotorcycleunion.com/.../AARR%20Brno%20SBK%20QP%201+2.pdf
2010 Mobil1 Supercup                   	Porsche Cup  	2:25.583	Porsche 911 GT3http://www.porsche.com/spain/_peru_/motorsportandevents/motorsport/racing/pmsc/news/?pool=motorsport&id=916c833d-0ba3-48af-b87f-d7c24a240878&lang=en
2011 24 Hours of Spa                   	GT3 Pro      	2:24.488	BMW Z4 GT3
2011 GT4 European Cup season           	GT4          	2:23.479	McLaren MP4-12Chttp://www.racingsportscars.com/race/Spa-2011-07-09.html
2010 24 Hours of Spa                   	GT2          	2:22.403	Ferrari F430
2010 1000 km of Spa                    	GT2          	2:20.336	Ferrari F430 GT2
2010 FIA GT1 Spa-Francorchamps round   	GT1          	2:17.605	Corvette C6.Rhttp://www.fiagtseries.com/calendar/circuit/spa-francorchamps
2008 FIA GT Total 24 Hours of Spa      	GT1          	2:13.923	Saleen S7-R
2011 24 Hours of Spa                   	FLM          	2:13.592	Oreca FLM09
2011 Spa-Francorchamps GP2 Series round	GP3          	2:12.498	ART Grand Prix
2010 24 Hours of Spa                   	LMP2         	2:03.135	HPD ARX-01Chttp://www.rml-adgroup.com/racing/LMS_2010/03_Spa_Race/03_spa2010_saturday.htm
2010 1000 km of Spa                    	LMP1         	1:57.884	Peugeot 908 HDi FAP
2009 Spa-Francorchamps GP2 Series round	GP2          	1:54.970	Ocean Racing Technology
2010 Belgian Grand Prix                	F1           	1:45.778	Red Bull RB6
Rather than the in/out approach, it should be discussed on the talk page on what is relevant to be added to the article. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Established lap record format can be read in the circuits infoxbox. It should be noted that qualifying has never counted towards Lap Records, and I note the table above seems to be composed of qualifying laps. It should also be noted lap records belong priarily to drivers rather than cars or teams. Here's an example for Spa-Francorchamps:
Class   	Driver          	Vehicle               	Time    	Date
Outright	Sebastian Vettel	Red Bull RB5-Renault  	1:47.263	12 July 2009
GP2     	Sergio Pérez    	Dallara GP2/08 Renault	1:56.731	30 August 2009
LMP1    	Franck Montagny 	Peugeot 908 HDi FAP   	1:59.797	9 May 2010
--Falcadore (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That table started life as a list of "fastest laps", rather than official records. In that case, qualifying does count (unlike free practice), since the car has to be legal for a qualy time to be set. In any case, I have no objection for the table to be re-compiled and re-sourced, if that would make it better.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.191.160.108 (talk) 00:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You're missing the point. Lap records (which in a century or so have never included qualifying laps) are recognised as being notable. They are constantly referred to and there is a well established criteria as to what a lap record is. A collection of fastest laps is just that, a collection of laps which you've decided by your own methods what is good and what is not. That is original research and wikipedia does not do that. --Falcadore (talk) 00:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think "own methods" come into it. A lap is either faster than other laps or it is not. It's not subjective. In any case, I'd say they remain until they are replaced with lap records.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.191.161.225 (talk) 19:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes there is. There is the accepted method and the one you have just made up. By your own admission you've excluded practice laps, but not qualifying, which is a completely new and made-up method not supported by practice.  Lap records do not, and never have included qualifying laps. It is just that simple. Qualifying laps are compiled seperately as qualifying lap records and refered to as such. --Falcadore (talk) 02:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  lap records from article 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.tomkristensen.com/karriere.aspx?yearID=d3f50014-55c6-4e1a-b8a0-8712121e9969
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050808073902/http://www.f1db.com/f1/page/Circuit_National_de_Francorchamps to http://www.f1db.com/f1/page/Circuit_National_de_Francorchamps
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:46, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This track map is inaccurate, even contradicted by the one in the header. The bus stop is reversed and the Source straight is curvy, for some reason. Is there a better version of this? HarryKernow. Talk.   21:08, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As the caption says, that is the circuit as at 2004. [] Ian Dalziel (talk) 10:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh, that's really interesting. I didn't know that they updated the bus stop like that but a quick look at some lap footage confirms it. HarryKernow. Talk.   04:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccurate picture 

message: The infobox has a link to the French homepage rather than the English one.  I changed in the Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps.  But I can't find the link in the infofox.  Can someone help?  The correct English link is . Will (Talk - contribs) 07:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it was picking up the website from the linked Wikidata item: (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q172851) I've overridden it by adding the "website" parameter to the infobox. DH85868993 (talk) 10:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unable to find and change link to homepage 

message: At what point did the straight to Les Combes become officially known as the "Kemmel Straight"? The track map at the top of the page uses the "Kemmel Straight" name, whereas the track layout history section refers to (what I thought) was the actual situation - that Kemmel refers to the kink to the right after Radillon, not the whole straight. The "Kemmel Straight" naming seems like one of those things that's become accepted wisdom due to it being referred to as such so frequently, whatever the official situation may be. Craig P Wilson (talk) 13:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kemmel