Talk:Al-Ahbash/Archive 1

message: New version created following the inconclusive Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Habashies. While no consensus emerged over specific action, there was agreement that a total rewrite was needed. So here goes... Tearlach 12:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New version

message: I reverted the edits by  on grounds of non-neutrality (they removed links to an academic account of the topic and to a site critical of Al-Ahbash) and copyvio (text copied straight from the Shaykh ^Abdullah al-Harariyy page at aicp.org). Tearlach 13:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert 3rd Sep 2005

message: : when you edit, please leave the Wikipedia links intact. Otherwise, it just makes work for other editors who have to wikify the whole article again. Tearlach 12:58, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki links

message: The group named al-ahbash are a sunni group from lebanon. The books written by sheikh abdullah al-habashi from (al-habashah) are authorised and approved by the azhar of egypt, which is the biggest islamic authority in the world. The books of sheikh al-habashi are taught in kulliyat al-shari`ah (shariah college). The wahhabis of saudi arabia who carried out 9/11 employ people to sit on the internet and lauch hate campaigns against people who expose their fallacies and their non-sunni views. Enough said, the whole Muslim world is talking against their deviancy not just the ahbash sunni group of lebanon. I have reverted to muslimunity's post which is a much more succint and neutral view.
:If you are determined to edit, please edit constructively. Your last edits destroyed all the internal and external links to other articles, making work for other editors who have to put them all back in. This is generally viewed as vandalism. Nor are they neutral - for a start, they removed external links, one to a site critical of Al-Ahbash, another to a properly-cited research paper from an academic journal. The whole text also lacks sources. I've therefore reverted it, put up a neutrality dispute tag, and moved the material here for discussion of how to make it neutral. Tearlach 15:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  McKhan's is a wahhabi biased view 

message: Is non-political accurate? - Al-Ahbash has put up candidates for the Lebanese parliament.
True they have done that, but my understanding is that there is a difference between a political party constituted to run for parliaments and between a religious movement which might have individuals who are politically active and who might receive the support of the movement. The group as it states about itself focuses on the dissimenation of Islamic Sunni knowledge through education and other peaceful and non-violent means of interaction in communities.
The reason why wahhabism was stated to be extremist, is that at its heart is a call for the use of arms and violence in the pursuit of domination and control. 9/11 was carried out by young men affected by the wahhabi ideology. This is not an opinion but rather a fact. 
The other reason why Wahhabism is extremist is that Muslim scholars in the last two decades have written extensively against their deviation away from true Islamic thought. I believe a research was conducted by Dr Hersi Mohammed from Malaysia to find out the extent to which the wahhabi ideology was rejected throughout the Muslim world, and the result of his findings were over 100 books written by major Islamic scholars in the last 2 centuries from Rabat to Istanbul, Cairo, Mecca, Dhaka and Jakarta. This fact makes the wahhabis' claim to be a mainstream ideology in the Muslim world ludicrous and biased.
:I agree non-political is obviously not accurate. I think it comes from the fact that al-ahbash are more related to sufi traditions and sufi are generally viewed in the west as moderate, therefore non-political religous groups which is not always correct.--equitor 10:29, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
::I agree: there's a tendency in the West to reserve "political" as meaning "militantly political". Perhaps the description could be clarified in relation to its different roles inside Lebanon (where it is involved in politics) and more generally worldwide (where the published stance is education about Islam). Tearlach 10:50, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification on 'non-political' 

message: Protection was requested for this page, because of the edit dispute. It is, of course, protected on m:The Wrong Version, and if I messed up and protected it on the right version, please tell me! By the way, links are good. --Phroziac (talk) 04:03, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
:I requested the protection to stop the edits from anonymous and newly-created accounts: partly because of the bias, partly because the style of the edits has been vandalistic in destroying internal and external links. Note that it doesn't mean the article can't be changed or expanded. It just means everyone must agree on a change before it's made. Tearlach 10:58, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: I recommend that the page 'al-ahbash' be permanently removed from wikipedia, because it contains biased information mostly fabricated by wahhabis. The wahhabis have been spreading racist rumors for years now against any powerful Sunni group that has a strong world following and that goes against their corrupt biased views.
::Read NPOV. I chose those links because they represent a spread of views: one well-referenced and (as far as I can tell neutral) academic article; one from the official AICP site, which is completely uncritical of Al-Ahbash; and one fairly representative of what its critics say about it. Tearlach 02:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links are not neutral, they are from a known racist wahhabi website. 

message: 1- Not a religious sect
 
AICP is rather a religious association (group) within the Sunni sect. The Sheikh does not have an interpretation that mixes Sunni and Shia, the Sheikh rather states in his books that he follows the Sunni way (Shafi` in practice and Ash`ari in creed). On Sufism the Sheikh and his students follow the Qadiri and the Rifa`i Sufi orders. His book as-Sirat al-Mustaqim (The Straight Path) states the above positions.
::I knew it that you will eventually resort to ebonics / semantics. Indeed, AICP IS the MAIN FUNDING SOURCE and "non-profit" front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies in the West and around the globe. Therefore, AICP, by default, IS a RELIGIOUS SECT / CULT who hides behind mainstream Muslims ALL OVER THE WORLD. As far as your Sheikh's "teachings" are concerned, they are nothing but an unintelligent and dubious innovations to become prominent by picking-and-chosing-as-per-neccessity from different Muslim school of thoughts. McKhan
2- Not a political party
 
Refer to my earlier statement above about the group not being a political party that runs for parliamentary posts. The group is apolitical and Sufi in nature. On the contrary, its quietness on political issues has at times resulted in strife for the association. Yes, the group did support Adnan Traboulsi and Taha Naji in the Lebanese elections in 2005, but it was not a Sheikh from the group that was running for the elections, rather the two were civil men that are students of Sheikh Abdullah al-Harari, and they were in the political scene even before they met the Sheikh.
::To borrow your own words from your previous post, " for AICP to have received 20% of the Sunni vote in Beirut (an-Nahar newspaper 31/05/2005) entails that AICP is in deed BIG." AND yet you want people to believe that AICP / Al-Ahbash / Habashies are NOT a Political Party? McKhan
--Muslimunity 04:46, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing 

message: Hence, the association cannot be called a political party, or a religious sect, rather it's a religious Sunni association (group).
::And yet mainstream Sunni Muslims have let the cat of Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP, a religious sect AND political party, out with bell attached... :) McKhan
--Muslimunity 04:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A religious association (group). 

message: AICP is a Sunni organisation and its books are approved by al-Azhar which is a Sunni university in Cairo (Egypt). 
Proof:
http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/ties_book_5_main_index.htm
::Quoting something from AICP web-site, a mouthpiece / a front of Al-Ahbash / Habashies, constitutes to dishonest prositution of the facts on the ground. Please, bring some INDEPENDENT sources or a link from Al-Azhar University by itself in due course. As I have already mentioned, it is all about exposing Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP as a stray sect / cult which seeks legitimacy by hiding behind mainstream Sunni Muslims like me. Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP are NOT part of any Islamic Shura (Consultative) or Fiqh (Jurisprudence) council in North America or elswhere in the world. They did try to create one on their own in Australia but they misreably failed and got exposed at the hands of mainstream Sunni Muslims. It is NOT about Al-Azhar approved books nor it is about having a Muslim names and / or anything else. It is all about Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP being treated for what they truly are: a stray sect / cult who hides behind the mainstream Sunni Muslims. You still haven't answered any of my sixty million dollars questions. :) McKhan
Enough said.
McKhan's speaking on behalf of mainstream Sunni Muslims is laughable and ludicrous. In fact it's like Hitler speaking on behalf of those he burnt alive! McKhan your wahhabi views which is proven by your rehashed vitriol from known wahhabi websites is becoming irritating for the editors.
Stop using these pages to push across your racist religious ideology.
::Muslimunity, I just don't want to leash boredom on the people with the graphic details of basics of Islam to highlight the difference between Al-Ahbash / Habashies / AICP's innovations and mainstream Sunni Muslims beliefs. For example, the followers of Al-Ahabash / Habashies / AICP pray towards the Southeast/East-Southeast contrary to mainstream Sunni Muslims who pray towards the Northeast/Northeast-North from North America. As far as your "politically correct" language is concerned, the bad news IS that it is not going to work on WikiPedia as its founder and editors are more concerned about NPOV guidlines making your accusation of me "pushing my religious ideology" quite "laughable and ludicrous." I am content with Tearlach's version. It is you who is having nightmares. Let me borrow Equitor's words, once again, "Wikipedia is not a place to push your religious agenda." P.S to the Editors: I would like to take the liberty to reiterate, the last time, that Tearlach's version fits my bill.McKhan
Muslimunity 06:33, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  al-Azhar approved AICP books 

message: No discussion. --Tony SidawayTalk 08:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotected

message: In 1999 the president of the Azhar (Egypt) Dr Ahmad Omar Hashem visited AICP HQ in Beirut and met with Sheikh Adbullah al-Harari the spiritual guide of AICP. AICP and the Azhar signed a memorandum of collaboration. Also the Sheikh's books (e.g. as-sirat al-mustaqim and al-maqalat as-sunniya) have been signed and approved by Azhar scholars implying the Sheikh's high esteem amongst the Sunni community.
(reference and pictures) http://www.alsunna.org/azhar2.htm
Muslimunity 02:04, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azhar/AICP Memorandum of Collaboration

message: McKhan, the following link http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/habasi_history.htm shouldn't be there. It's not about the page content, it's about the quality of the langage. It's fulled of syntax/spelling mistakes, I mean is this english Did you believe these garbage?. Do not worry according to Imam Shafi "if someone become Sofi in the morning, at the noon he will become stupid, also, no one will stay with Sofis forty days and he will lose his mind". look Tlbes Ables P. 371) ?? It's OK to have links with negative POV but can you find one that is properly written?--equitor 02:01, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link 

message: Al-Azhar doesn't approve heretic movements such wahhabism. AICP collaborates with al-Azhar, the oldest Sunni institution in the world. Al-Azhar is a high Sunni authority despite what McKhan the Wahhabi thinks. Wahhabism breads odious terror factions such as al-Qaeda and its global franchises.
AICP (Association of Islamic Charitable Projects) Lebanon was not built overnight, and if it did not have deep roots in Sunni ‘aqidah (doctrine) supported by the Azhar it would have vanished long time ago, and it would not have received the widespread popularity and appeal in Beirut, the base of the organisation and the place where it all began almost 30 years ago. AICP played a big role in the Lebanese civil war by promoting a sense of co-existence with the nasara others who were torn up into a bloody feud with some sections of the Muslim community. The civil Sunni attitude of tasawwuf that AICP promotes also helped ease the tension internally within the Lebanese Sunni population, by repelling the attitudes of the heretic militants who for political reasons hijacked the name of Islam and hid in refugee camps that were out of bounds for the Lebanese army.
It was from these outlawed hot-places and refugee camps that the clandestine commando style operations indiscriminately took place against the civilian population of Beirut. Accompanying these cowardist unholy operations were fake cries of Allahu Akbar in order to appeal to the Muslim population. But these cries driven by a lust for domination were all fake cries and calls for indiscriminate killing. These propagandists killed Sheikh Nizar al-Halabi the former leader and founder of AICP, because of the real threat he posed to them. Sheikh ‘Abdullah al-Harariy is not the founder of AICP but
rather the religious guide. He is a Sunni scholar from Harar in al-Habashah (East Africa) whose local Beiruti students from traditional Sunni Lebanese families initiated civil and institutionalised da‘wah work in the form of an NGO (Non Governmental Organisation) called AICP and which was originally founded in 1930.
Sheikh ‘Abdullah al-Harari before residing in Beirut traveled through al-Quds and Damascus where he was received as a Shafi‘i scholar. Azhar scholars have approved the Sheikh’s books and have received them with high esteem. The sheikh’s attitude towards secular governments is unique in contemporary times, in that he scrupulously relies on the traditional Sunni fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) in order to find ways of achieving da‘wah related goals without getting into cross fire with government forces. At a time of Syrian domination upon the political scene in Lebanon during the civil war, AICP with the direction of the Sheikh found ways for dialogue and interaction even with the Syrian forces. This does not make AICP a direct supporter of the Syrian Baath party in any way shape or form. This is called diplomacy at times of strife, order to promote the bigger
goal which is to protect the true Islamic teachings from those deluded deviants who resided in ‘ain el-helwe.
Australia.
However, with time this small Beirut based picture grew, and what was a Lebanese snapshot, has now become an Australian picture with ‘ain el-helwe having migrated legs and arms here and AICP having local organizations and institutions. It’s the same battle, but has now grown to a world stage. Incidentally, abu-Muhjin the leader of the
commandos of ‘ain el-helwe and the assassinator of Sheikh Nizar al-Halabi has been recently found in Iraq as abu-Mus‘ab al-Zarqawi’s sidekick and second man. The ‘ain elhelwe propaganda, which was praised many times in the Sydney based magazine called nida’ul islam and which was referred to as the heartland of the Islamic revolution inside Lebanon, brought with it a dark propagandist machine of hate against AICP's local branch. It was that magazine which initiated the ugly and racist word habashi in reference to the Sheikh. The Sheikh is their top opponent, because his academic Sunni refutations exposed them in Lebanon like no other. He refuted their fake cries of Allahu Akbar by quoting Imam abu-Hanifah, Imam ash-Shafi‘i and other true Sunni scholars.
Muslimunity 06:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  AICP and it's Battle Against wahhabi Heresy 

message: McKhan who is obviously a hardcore Wahhabi and a member of the same movement as usama bin laden [Wahhabism] has provided his usual rehashed rants and clandestine links. The content for all his illicit rants and links has been produced in Riyadh-Saudi (HQ of the Wahhabi movement) against the strongest global organisation (AICP) that has produced Azhar based refutations against Wahhabism; usama bin laden's movement.
McKhan has confessed already that AICP is linked to what he termed as a 'corrupt' Azhar. To McKhan, al-Azhar in Egypt is not 'corrupt' as he hatefully claims without proof. In fact, to the contrary and to McKhan's demise Al-Azhar is the most recognised Sunni authority and the oldest academic center in the Muslim world. It's recognised by Muslim Sunni scholars in South East Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, the Middle East north Africa, East Arica West Africa and the rest of the Muslim world. The only people that have historically had a problem with al-Azhar are the Wahhabis, for obvious reasons.
On that premise, I wonder who is short of legitimacy?
Muslimunity 00:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fraudulent links provided by McKhan 

message: (fact 1) AICP has been approved by the Azhar
(fact 2) AICP has legitimate Sunni refutations against Wahhabism
(fact 3) usama bin laden's movement is not approved by the Azhar
Muslimunity 00:05, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  AICP is Azhar approved. Some more facts: 

message: McKhan's claims are lies and his links are Wahhabi links. They are easily refuted by quoting the Azhar who regard Sheikh Abdullah Al-Harari's books with high esteem. The Sheikh's books carry the stamp of the Azhar on the inside. No Wahhabi book will ever carry that stamp. The Sheikh is a Shafi`i Sunni scholar from Harar in Ethipoia originally, he then travelled to the Hijaz and then to Jerusalem, Damascus and then settled in Beirut. The Sheikh was granted permission by the Muftis and the sholars of those cities to teach inside the cities' mosques, where he was attended by the highest scholars. Enough said. 
The Sheikh's war on usama bin laden's movement is on. He will continue to refute this deviant and illicit movement and expose its baseless clandestine operations by quoting the early traditional scholars of Islam.
Wahhabism is on the decline.
Muslimunity 01:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  McKhan is an offstream Wahhabi propagandist 

message: It's still not clear, but Ahbash leaders have been linked to Hariri's assassination. I don't know if there's a responsability of the AICP or if it is individuals only.--equitor 23:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hariri assassination 

message: I would advice that the repeated posts be stopped. These posts as stated earlier are taken from wahhabi based websites sympathetic with usama ben laden's global terrorist operation. They are fraudulent fabrications coming out from the same illegitimate centers in riyadh that publish literature for bin laden's wahhabi movement.
So stop re-posting the same post over and over. These posts only show how extremist in thought the wahhabi underground movement is.
The Sunni orthodox group Al-Ahbash are an international and non-violent association with the logistical capacity and the theological defense capable of refuting with traditional Sunni teachings the wahhabi idelogies of usama bin laden's movement of evil - this is an AICP stated objective.
It is for these reasons that 5 from the ayn al-helwe wahhabi group usbat al-ansar were charged and executed for killing the former leader of AICP in 1995. Abu mohjen the leader of usbat al-ansar (convicted in absentia) is still on the loose and reported to be al-zarqawi's second man in Iraq.
AICP resorted to the Lebanese security system in the wake of the killing of their leader in 1995, and not one bullet was shot. This is testimonial to AICP's non-violent and philanthropic conviction.
Muslimunity 00:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop re-posting the same Wahhabi propaganda 

message: I would like to discuss the actual content of the Al-Ahbash article if i may. It mentions the following "an interpretation of Islam combining elements of Sunni and Shi'a theology with Sufism" - I would like to know the source of this statement and the evidence for it. 
american_iraqi
:It was an attempt to summarise and merge the descriptions at the three cited sources: their own promotional website; a critical description; and what appears to be a fairly balanced and properly-sourced paper in an academic journal. It incorporated other academic sources such as Internet in a Sectarian Islamic Context. Tearlach 15:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I would like to have a rational and non-biased discussion regarding this definition of Al-Ahbash 

message: Some of what you said i agree with. However, i am actually familiar with the website called Talkaboutislam.com and i've spoken with the person who established it. Based on that i can not accept the source you cited as an Academic Resource because it makes the claim that talkaboutislam.com is an Ahbash endorsed website when in fact it is not. The person who established it has an Ahbash background but he is his own person. The doesn't answer to their leaders; he is a rouge so to speak. i know that for a fact. So one can not take the actions of one person and label it the methodology of an entire group. I'm actually going to find the phone number to their headquaters and call them to see what they have to say about this. I'd rather hear it from the "horse's mouth".
american_iraqi
:I know this is a sincere attempt on your part to check out the background, but it won't help. The big problem here is with the Wikipedia guidelines on original research. The only thing we're allowed to go by is reputable published material on the subject. Tearlach 22:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  In regards to Tearlach's comment 

message: "beleifs seen as heretical" is a point of view, ALSO you didn't specify WHO they are heretical to?..According to whom are they heretical? etc?...you cannot just say they advocate heretic beleifs without stateing according to WHOM are the beleifs heretical. The same way i cannot go to a christian article and say "these are all kafirs"..i CAN however say "according to muslims, these are kafirs" beacsue i am stateing who this point of view belongs to, simply stateing they are kafirs is a point of view with no soruce, if you DO have a soruce which supports your claime, then you say "According to *source* this group teaches heretical beleifs"
Please follow the NPOV policy. Crono 01:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "heretical" is a POV

message: So, you are a Habashie from Montreal, Canada who is here to rescue Abdullah al-Harariyy / Habashies / Al-Ahbash by insisting that the word "heretical" is 'POV' and simultaneously you have the audacity to propogate 'Abdullah al-Harariyy' and post AICP / Habashies / Al-Ahbash's  POVs + HIDDEN links to Habashies' / Al-Ahbash's web-site, www.aicp.org, on WikiPedia pages which are pertinent to Islam and Muslims - to promote your religious cult by hiding your true colors.
By posting those BIASED and TWISTED POVs - You think you are following the WikiePedia guidelines?
This version of Al-Ahbash page was written by Tearlach, a non-Muslim and non-Habashie, which is somewhat NPOV-compliant.
I am not going to waste my breathe by giving you "sources" about the usage of "Hertical." There are plenty of sources available over the internet AND on this page. Go and figure.
McKhan
---
fine, i don't care if you have soruces, but you MUST post them ON the page in that line where you make the claim, you have to state "According to *source" they push forward beleifs that are considered heretical"..other wise you will find me reverting the edit every single day, i have plenty of time. You either make it NPOV, or deal with me editing it every day. Your choice. 
Also, external links don't have to be NPOV
Crono 12:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am NOT going to baby-sit you for "sources." If you have so much time I have so much time as well. Ask Tearlach, a non-Muslim and non-Habashie, as he finalized that version. You are trying to promote Habashies' POVs by inserting aicp.com HIDDEN links and yet you think it is NOT the violation of NPOV guidelines. What you are doing is called VANDALISM not "reverting." And rest assued, I have ample time as well. :) McKhan
What a reatrd, firslty, I DIDN'T EVEN ADD ANY LINKS TO THE PAGE, the ONLY edit i did was rtemove the opposeing point of view that was posted, it is a REQUIREMENT to cite your soruces, preferable in the SAME line you makethe claime, here is an example.
Y is a retard according to X 
You MUST state whos point of view we are talking about.
Secondly, non-muslims makes no diffrence, we are tlaking about the guidelines set by the wikipedia official, and you MUST cite soruces for every non-NPOV comment added, saying "Group x teachers heretical beleifs" is incorrect, what SHOULD be said is "According to Y groupe X teaches heretical beleifs" 
What does it matter if tearlach finalized it?..that doesn't chnage the fact that it is not NPOV when it coems to this comment.
Now, as i said, unless you cite the soruces, i will edit the page every time it violates the NPOV rule. Crono 00:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  And yet you are posting Habashies' / AICP / Al-Ahbash 'POVs' and hedious links on WikiPedia-Islamic pages? 

message: Another non-NPOV opinion. The group themselves will admit to teachign Sunni Islam and Sufi teachings, they don't however admit to teachign Shia Islam, so there should be a footnote or a soruce stateing WHO exactly says that this group teaches Shia beliefs, You cannot jsut edit the artcle and post your opinion, you must cite soruce. Crono 00:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shia beleifs according to who?