Talk:Nine Inch Nails/Archive 2

message: A song from the new album was leaked earlier today and was played first on Chicagos Q101, and there was a section in the entry talking about it, but it was very unprofessionally written and didn't seem to follow guidelines. I removed it, but I don't feel familiar enough with Wikipedia policies to re-write it, being a new user. Just thought I'd clarify. --Baron Patsy 01:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm of the mindset that while this whole album promotion thing happens, the wiki article should be locked.  -- Leviathant 72.92.86.95 03:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree completely. --Baron Patsy 03:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Personally I don't mind when facts are initially badly written because it's a lot faster to fix that than to research and write it all from scratch. This is how I'm being updated on the latest discoveries anyway. Instead of locking/protecting the article, there can be an HTML comment directing trivia submitters to ninwiki.com, provided it stays up. Pomte 03:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  People don't read the HTML comments.  There's one about not using the backwards N, I think there was one about leaving alone the Industrial Rock/Alternative Rock label... people don't really listen.  Locking it down to registered users would help eliminate some of the back and forth we deal with from people who don't understand the purpose of a wikipedia article. Leviathant 22:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "My Violent Heart" leak 

message: The NIN song "Right Where It Belongs" on the With Teeth album is about reaching enlightenment. Even some of their press release photographs had this theme. I know some other songs of his have led up to this point.
75.73.201.199 00:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which photos in particular? Unique personal enlightenment or are there references to traditional conceptions of enlightenment? Pomte 02:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enlightenment 

message: I removed a large chunk of incorrect information from the style section.  It had said "Up until Jerome Dillon joined the band, his drum compositions featured repetitive loops, avoiding excessive fills and relying heavily on the snare and kick drums.  These simple, but catchy rhythms can be found in songs like "Big Man With a Gun," "Head Like a Hole" and "I Do Not Want This."  Jerome Dillon's arrival in the band had a heavy influence on the sound of Nine Inch Nails.  His strong usage of tom-tom drums can be heard in songs like "With Teeth," "Home" and during the live breakdown of "The Day the World Went Away.""
I can think of several prominent songs from Broken, The Downward Spiral, and The Fragile which feature both tom-toms and excessive fills.  Nothing against Jerome, he makes some cool music, and he certainly helped out in the recording of With Teeth, but to say that NIN didn't use tom-toms or fills before Jerome played with the band is kind of ludicrous.  --Leviathant 72.78.235.126 05:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind that "You Know What You Are" probably has more hits to the tom-toms than all the other songs on the album combined, and was performed by Dave Grohl.  --Leviathant216.158.33.200 21:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree, no single drummer has influenced NIN's style and much of what else you say is true. However the credit for Tommy Lee on BMWAG is for- er- something other than drumming. 128.100.60.126 11:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style/Jerome Dillon 

message: this section is incomplete. TR won a case in manhattan this spring against malm for $10 million, which was a counter-suit to malm's suit against TR. i can also find no source on the fansite that's cited. --  Denstat 05:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I put in a proper source... where did you find the $10 million figure? BotleySmith 20:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm fairly certain that while he may have been pursuing a figure closer to $10 million, due to the statute of limitations, he was only able to walk away with $4 million. -- Leviathant 216.158.33.200 14:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: corporate entanglements

message: Was this already discussed and I missed it? Vorhees7 removed the current and past members section from the band template at the top, and I don't think the only person who should be listed there is Trent Reznor. --King Bee 13:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The past members list was split into its own article. BotleySmith 20:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Though isn't it kinda weird that the infobox says that there's only one person in NIN while the picture of NIN shows five people? -- Rynne 00:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe add a "Nine Inch Nails: Live" link to it? -Heroicraptor 22:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Members

message: This classification is on AMG, therefore we should recognize this band as originators of the genre. Discuss. BotleySmith 05:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not even close. Twiin 12:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Pardon me. Followers of the genre (I won't split hairs over Pretty Hate Machine being released a month before that). BotleySmith 15:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: lol, PHM isnt an industrial metal album, ur thinking of Broken. PHM is an industrial pop album, think prince + throbbing gristle. --AlexOvShaolin 19:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That may be your assessment, but the all music guide says PHM is one of the top Industrial Metal albums. Neither act used guitars the way "Head Like A Hole" or "Sin" does. BotleySmith 20:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: If we're playing that game, With Teeth is nu-metal, can we call it that it would be fun? No, no, its emo. Pretty Hate Machine industrial metal? considering nothing about it is metal and very little about it is truly industrial, i think its a fitting title for the average fanboi that swears their fav musician pioneered a genre of music. i really dont care, just felt like bitching. yours truly, --AlexOvShaolin 03:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yep, that is how this site works. We have facts backed up by external sources according to our verifiability and reliability policies/guidelines. What you just said is original research and is not acceptable for inclusion in the site. Also, please sign your posts.-Localzuk(talk) 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I feel that the term "Industrial rock" is broad enough to encompass all of those. Particularly since the genre's page on Wikipedia mentions the band twice, I think it (in combination with "Alternative rock") covers the band's most typical output. Of course, this page does note that the band actually straddles more genres than that. As to what genre individual releases fall under - that's a discussion for (many) other talk pages. BotleySmith 03:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In other words: until better justification is given, stop replacing "Alternative rock" with "Industrial Metal" in the infobox. BotleySmith 18:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Industrial Metal 

message: Suggest slightly shuffling the order in which these sections appear, for stylistic reasons.  It's easier to read on from the end of the With Teeth section onto Future Releases than it is to  jump a few pargraphs over the Corporate section.  Is this cool? --Insomniak 11:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool by me. BotleySmith 17:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future Releases before Corporate Entanglements 

message: This is probably going to be my last edit to the article for a while, as I'm going to be really busy with other things soon.
I removed "USA" from the infobox, because it's unnecessarily repetitive next to the flag icon. If someone wants to remove the flag icon as per WP:FLAGS, go right ahead - I've given up trying to enforce it. But please, keep either the link to United States or the flag itself, not both.
Also, while I admit that "Nine Inch Nails is" sounds a bit awkward, that is the grammatically correct way of referring to the band. I have avoided it where possible; "NIN is" sounds a little better out loud but really just amounts to the same thing. Resist the temptation to use "NIN are", particularly given the ambiguous nature of this group's plurality.
Happy editing, folks. BotleySmith 17:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For reference, see the liner notes of every Nine Inch Nails album, where it is always stated that "Nine Inch Nails is Trent Reznor." Leviathant 01:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for all your effort Botley. Pomte 20:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My last edit... for a while 

message: I was glancing at what a few of the "important" people said to look at (the Pixies article, the Manson Article, etc.
It seems like in both places, there are tabular discography listings. I started to create one of those, at least for the singles, but then realized i didn't know if it would be appropriate to add. What are people's thoughts on this? I'm more than willing to put in the effort if its something that would make this article better.
Additionally, if people do want that, what info should there be, if any, about bootlegs? I figure that should be low-priority at most. But i don't know if it should be left out altogether to keep the article... above board? Tlmii 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interest in More of a Discography Listing 

message: One of the major issues that comes up over and over again in the review of this article by Wiki folk is The NIN Hotline.  In the peer review, someone links to three stories on the website, mentioning that they do not look reliable.  As the guy who's been running the NIN Hotline from it's inception, I'd like to ask what I can do to make it more reliable, credible, and citeable on this article.  If you go over every post we've made since our onset in 1999, you'd be lucky to find more than five news items that ended up being incorrect -- Excluding April Fools gags, of course.  That's far better than medium and large circulation newspapers, magazines, and other 'reliable' sources that are okay to cite on this website.
When I started the NIN Hotline, I was working for a newspaper company while waiting to hear back on a job interview I had with Trent Reznor, John Malm and Susan Swan at Nothing Studios in New Orleans.  There were other news pages out there, but they often posted rumors, watermarked images they didn't own, would incorrectly cite sources -- if cited at all.  I wanted to create a site that not only maintained a level of accuracy and integrity well above what should be expected of a silly fan site, but also intended that should I ever close up shop, I'd leave it all online, because other sites had disappeared after losing hosting, or having CGI scripts break.  
Regarding the archiving of copyrighted articles on our site -- Part of the reason we keep copies of newspaper and magazine and web-only articles on our web site is because other web sites were not.  Sometimes publications would drastically restructure their site, and archived material would no longer be made available.  Sometimes they would just fold up and disappear with so many others in the dot-com crash.  In a dozen or so cases, we conducted interviews ourselves, including perhaps the first published interview with Alan Moulder (most definitely the first online interview with Alan Moulder.)
The site was one of the top five sites in British Telecom's Digital Music Awards (people's choice category), one of our offshoots (nothingradio.net) have had mention in Spin_(magazine) and Shift_(magazine).  We've been mentioned on countless radio stations across the world, Channel_V in Australia, MTV rips us off without citation all the time.  Our site has enjoyed a quiet relationship with band and management, and has been a source of exclusive photos from studio sessions, lyrics to songs before their release (and in the case of the track Deep, the only outlet for the official lyrics), and we often get information about releases before NIN & management hear about it.  
I understand that most fan sites on the internet are tacky and awful.  While there is certainly a lot of awfulness and tack to my site, it is a very accurate, well-sourced home of news and archived information about the band.  Pretty handy before Wikipedia.  In fact, the majority of this wiki article would not exist if it were not for the efforts put forth by the staff of theninhotline.net.  
In short: What can I do to call off the hounds, when other people link to the NIN Hotline?  I'm not doing this for the traffic.  There are four different links to The NIN Hotline & subsites on nin.com; I'm pretty well secured with an audience.  I think that the journalistic efforts put forth on the site deserve a little more than to be wiped out every time they're mentioned here.  It's not conducive to the diffusion of information.  Leviathant 03:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could leave that person a message on their talk page. M3tal H3ad 01:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What if I do that, and am so ambiguous in my reply that nothing comes of it? Leviathant 19:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Just an update here to point out that The NIN Hotline is thanked in the credits of both Beside You In Time as well as Year Zero, and I, as the creator of the above mentioned site, have been interviewed by the newspaper USA Today as well as by Kevin & Bean from the Los Angeles radio station KROQ.  I don't know if it's still an issue, crediting The NIN Hotline, but if anyone has any other suggestions as to how to increase the credibility of the site, I'm welcome to hear 'em :)  I'm not making a big fuss because I'm upset about my site, so much as I think that the NIN article would suffer greatly if it couldn't cite the Hotline. Leviathant 18:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the credibility, accuracy and reliability of The NIN Hotline (www.theninhotline.net) 

message: Nothing Records catalog --AlexOvShaolin 01:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Table completed. If you have all the release dates, post the raw data and I'll add the column. Pomte 04:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any reason we're not just linking to the Nothing Records page at discogs.com where this list was copied from? - rynne 14:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: there is additional releases not listed. furthermore the information is freely available, so it has a better home on wikipedia. --AlexOvShaolin 21:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nothing Records catalog 

message: User:Year 0 has deleted the "speculation" about Trent being behind the Closure and the Broken movie torrents. If the leaks are mentioned, then what Trent posted is very relevant information. He did post it in The Spiral, but NIN wikipedia articles cite The Spiral numerous times. It may be notable in that it is not like other leaks where the source is someone else abusing a copy, not the artist himself. Pomte 02:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Technically speaking, it is still speculation.  Trent Reznor has not at any point come out and said he's responsible for those torrents.  Certainly, it's obvious where they came from, but I think that Universal/Interscope's lawyers might throw a fit if they found out that he was giving away property that they have exclusive distribution rights to.  Therefore, it's probably in everyone's best interest to keep that which seems obvious relegated to the world of speculation.  Leviathant 18:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Not if standard copyright laws aren't being violated. BotleySmith 21:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The leaks 

message: like my vandalism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.191.83.107 (talk) 19:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's well thought-out. Pomte 20:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well... 

message: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nine Inch Nails in popular culture. I am not attempting to rally !votes here. There has been a movement against related "in popular culture" articles and I knew this was going to happen sooner or later, though I was planning on improving the article with citations and the rewriting lists into paragraphs. Now I guess we can just stub it down to a section in Nine Inch Nails. Pomte 04:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Nine Inch Nails in popular culture]] nominated for deletion 

message: What about Manson?72.184.201.3 02:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about him? --NeoVampTrunks 06:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect Anonymous means that the only mention of Manson in the article is Trent mocking him with Starfuckers, which lacks context. I added the fact that Manson appeared in one of the videos for "Gave Up". Trent Reznor and Nothing Records are better places to discuss their relation to Manson. Also, I have expanded the rivalry at Marilyn Manson#Fallout with Trent Reznor. –Pomte 07:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marilyn Manson 

message: all over the edit-page it is written not to use the "И". that's perfectly understandable, because it can get really annoying. but in my opinion it should be mentioned, that it is often used. i would say right in the beginnig, like: (abbreviated as NIN or NIИ ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.145.77.137 (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is described in the article, both in the logo image and as part of the "Early years" description of the logo design. I have hardly ever seen it typed out in text – I think partly because it doesn't look right on most typefaces, but mostly because it's unnecessary (people know what the abbreviation refers to, regardless if the n is flipped or not). BotleySmith 02:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The other thing, of course, is that it is not a cyrillic letter.  It's a flipped N.  Subtle difference, perhaps, but still.  --Yamla 02:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Could it be that people who keep adding NIИ have no idea what cyrillic letter means? I sure didn't. Still, the И character could be shown once in the article, because it is genuinely useful to know that the character exists, and NIИ could be typed that way even if it is annoying. –Pomte 03:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And if It's really that bothersome to find the "И" character every time you need it, you could just copy and paste the entire "NIИ" acronym. -70.21.58.201 20:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I use a rather novel (IMO) keyboard layout of my own design which gives rather simple access to the И character, which does resemble a mirrored N. If any body's interested I could host it on a server post a link. As far as using it in the article, I've always found that Wikipedia as a whole is not afraid to use the full extent of UTF-8 and, if necessary and proper, use the most obscure characters to provide the most correct article possible. From then on it's just a matter of determining if NIИ warrants inclusion, if only to state that some ninternet members like to type it that way as a method to imitate the logo. If we're going to look on an accessibility level, most text based browsers support UTF-8, and without a textual inclusion of the type setting these users would see no mention of the mirrored N in the article. Nonetheless, I think it's a good idea, but the consensus seems to be against it. --NeoVampTrunks 22:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But the NIN logo does not use the letter И.  It uses a flipped N.  Two totally different letters.  They even look different in most fonts.  --Yamla 22:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I can dig up a source that says Trent wanted the second N reversed to in order to make it look cool, if you find that relevant to this discussion. Regardless, it seems a useful tool for conveying the image logo textually using UTF-8 so that those not graphically inclined have access. It could simply say, often abbreviated by fans as NIИ. It just seems to warrant at least one position of inclusion on the page seeing as the logo is by far the most prevelant image of NIИ in the public eye. --NeoVampTrunks 06:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it could be said that NIN often typographically sets the character "N" backward in the text of their releases, and that'd be fine.  But the fact remains that the Cyrillic "И" is not the same as a backwards "N".  Using it as such doesn't convey correctness in the article; if anything it makes the article look uninformed because it misuses foreign characters.  -- rynne 15:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition, describing the logo in prose text can be done without the cyrillic letter; in fact, it is misleading to use it in certain browsers, as it looks nothing like the actual logo. BotleySmith 16:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyrillic letter 

message: This belongs on Pretty Hate Machine, not this article. BotleySmith 16:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carr's book on Pretty Hate Machine 

message: Okay, NIN is a BAND!!! It's not just Trent. Why aren't the band member mentioned? The System 3000 01:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are mentioned in the caption to the image. There was a long debate earlier about how "Trent Reznor is Nine Inch Nails", so only Trent was in the list. The live band link is a compromise. –Pomte 01:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They aren't even in the infobox! Nor are the former members. Okay if Trent is NIN, then why is his band pictured? There should just be a picture of him.  The System 3000 13:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This article is about Nine Inch Nails as a recording act, which is simply TR plus whoever happens to be around him at the time. For a more detailed look at the separate live entity, see the Nine Inch Nails: Live article. BotleySmith 03:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, They're are a BAND! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The System 3000 (talk • contribs) 13:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Live band 

message: User:Blaxthos moved it to pretty hate machine, citing the album cover. I think this should be reverted because to the best of my knowledge, PHM is not known to be lowercase so there's no need to deviate from the naming convention. From Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Album titles and band names: "Do not replicate stylized typography in logos and album art, though a redirect may be appropriate (for example, KoЯn redirects to Korn (band))." I can't find a more specific guideline that refers to cases like this, but NIN often refers to itself in all uppercase, all lowercase, and sometimes with underscores [WITH_TEETH], and we don't take those names by their design. What does everyone else think? –Pomte 03:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not just ask on the appropriate talk page, or just ask me directly.  I have AWB and changed it originally -- it's not hard for me to change it back, and I don't take these sorts of things personally?  Also, does anyone have a primary source for proper PHM nomenclature -- something of print from the band that referrs to Pretty Hate Machine (or pretty hate machine)?  /Blaxthos 17:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Pretty Hate Machine]] 

message: We at Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative music think this article is pretty close to FA standard and that this article could be worthy of a second nomination at Featured Article Candidates soon. Are there any major suggestion or concerns regarding this page that you think should be addressed before we move to another FAC nom?
I have a few suggestions for the page: move details about the band's music videos into a "Music videos" section (see The Smashing Pumpkins for an example), clarify at the start of the History section how exactly Nine Inch Nails came about, and discuss the importance of the remixes in the context of the musical style section (I mean, Reznor has released albums full of nothing but remixes). WesleyDodds 12:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Music videos section under Discography? I've been meaning to go through Musical characteristics because it looks like it really could be better sourced. Some of the album sections could lose some detail. There are some sources I can bring over from Nine Inch Nails: Live to improve the Band members section. The fair use infobox image should be replaced, right? None of the images at commons:Nine Inch Nails are totally representative, though personally I would go for the Line Begins to Blur (1st row 3rd column) or March of the Pigs (2nd row last column). And lastly I hope to re-incorporate a very very brief and concise In popular culture summary, but that's idealistic. –Pomte 15:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Really, all you need for infobox is a free picture of Trent Reznor; we don't need to know what the current band looks like although it would be nice. Put the sections in this order: "History", "Musical Characteristics", "Music videos", and then "Discography". As for pop culture, the main thing that seems notable to me is the Quake thing; most everything else is some small reference, like that mention on The Simpsons. Just list a few of those examples. WesleyDodds 16:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The references need fact-checking and possibly other cleanup (see SG's comments from the last peer review), since I added most of them myself, and somebody else should really go through and verify them impartially. Dunno about the infobox image - Jkelly suggested looking through Flickr for images tagged with the band name and a Creative Commons license, and after doing so recently this one caught my eye. BotleySmith 16:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA considerations 

message: Given Reznor's latest corporate entaglement (  ) the section is beginning to become a bit unwieldy.  I propose splitting the section into a number of sub-sections, such as TVT/Nothing Records, 2005 MTV Music Awards, Fox News, Universal Music Group (the latest), etc.  I just thought I'd suggest it here to get some opinions before going all willy nilly. Drewcifer3000 21:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion/Revision of Corporate Entanglements section 

message: Is it really necessary to hot-link pieces of various dates in this article?  It's doubtful that someone reading this article would suddenly become compellingly interested in the year 2003 and want to conveniently visit it with a single mouse-click.  These should be removed.  74.114.219.5 14:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, it comes across as sloppy editing. Drewcifer3000 18:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It is wide practice to link full dates so they appear differently depending on user preferences if you have an account, e.g. July 10, 2007 appears as 10 July 2007 for the British. Do not link July 2007 by itself, and do not link 2007 by itself. –Pomte 18:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Date-linking