Talk:Kanzi

message: Kanzi has musical skills and has played with Paul McCartney and Peter Gabriel?  What sort of music did Kanzi do, sing?  play the drums?  guitar? Timan123 18:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musical skills? 

message: Can someone please clear up in the article if Kanzi is male or female? These are quotes in the article:
Kanzi is a male - this is a typo
"Kanzi, her mother, brother, and sister now live at the Great Ape Trust in Des Moines, Iowa"
"As an infant, Kanzi accompanied his mother to sessions where she was taught language through keyboard lexigrams"
Obviously, one says his, one her - is Kanzi male or female, and would someone adjust the article to reflect such?
:Done.  His refers to Kanzi.  Her refers to Matata, Kanzi's mother.
Why is this in dispute?
:These are the main disputed parts: 
::Matata. As an infant, Kanzi accompanied his mother to sessions where she was taught language through keyboard lexigrams, but displayed little interest in the lessons. It was a great surprise to researchers then when one day, while Matata was away, Kanzi began competently using the lexigrams, becoming not only the first observed ape to have learned aspects of language naturalistically rather than through direct training but also the first observed bonobo to use language at all. 
:- FrancisTyers 08:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See above for the nature of the dispute. Has it been independantly verified in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that Kanzi can "use language" and is this the precise term that they use? If so what are the references? - FrancisTyers 20:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear in mind: Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also contain a grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. Because a language also has a grammar, it can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them.. I'm happy to accept that this animal can communicate using these lexigrams, what I'm not happy with is that it has a grammar. Maybe I'll be proved wrong :) - FrancisTyers 21:19, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Kanzi can communicate to a limited extent by using Yerkish, but I doubt that any non-human ape will ever master the full complexity of a human language's grammar. There have been articles published describing the details of Kanzi's ability to communicate. The Kanzi article should provide a description of which components of human language have been learned by Kanzi and which seem to be beyond the "grasp" of a chimp's mind. The article should describe the fact that Kanzi and other young chimps have learned symbol systems for communication in the same way that young human children do, by being exposed to language users. Nobody ever claimed that chimps can learn a complete human language, so there is no need to create a make-believe "dispute" and request evidence to support something that has never been asserted. Someone just needs to take the time to describe Kanzi's abilities. --JWSchmidt 01:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's what it seems to suggest in the text. I have no doubt that with further editing to the article, the dispute could be removed. I agree that the article should provide a precise description of which components of human language have been learned, and which have been taught. When you say articles have been published describing Kanzi's ability to communicate, do you mean to say they used "communicate" and not "language" (the two are different, see Language). I don't particularly have the time to spend investigating this. - FrancisTyers 12:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Both of those proposals seem very reasonable and would resolve the dispute without either of us having to put extra work into the article. I agree that the best way to improve the article would be to describe the details of Kanzi's abilities, but as I don't have the time this is not going to be done by me. I think the second best way would be to take both of your suggestions and merge them into one. i.e. explain that Kanzi has learnt a subset of the behavioral and cognitive features that are traditionally used to characterize human language and that some people refer to this as non-human language and some people refer to it as "communication" rather than "language". This way we are presenting both sides of the argument.  - FrancisTyers 19:51, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: This article is one of at least 16 articles on Wikipedia primarily about the fascinating but controversial subject of Great ape language. These articles have been created independently and contain much interesting but uncoordinated information, varying levels of NPOV, and differences in categorization, stubbing, and references. Those of us working on them should explore better coordinating our efforts so as to share the best we have created and avoid unnecessary duplication. I have somewhat arbitrarily put the list of 16 articles on Talk:Great ape language and would encourage us to informally coordinate efforts there. Martinp 18:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple articles on great ape language 

message: A photo of Kanzi would be good for this article. Das Baz 16:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photograph needed

message: There is some ambiguity there: who did show “little interest in the lessons”? Matata or Kanzi? I would say Matata, since Kanzi leanrt so much, but Kanzi is a possibility too: he learnt very fast and after just fot bored? So, who showed little interest?David Latapie (✒ | @) 01:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguity: little interest 

message: I just watched an OPB special on bonobos, and was interested to learn they are a completely female led species.  There may still be an alpha male (they didn't mention), but he would still be subordinate to the alpha female.  This link  is to a biopage for Kanzi's mother on the Great Ape Trust's website (GAT being the research center where Kanzi and his family live), and states in the very first sentence that she is the uncontested dominant member of their group.
Anyways, I'm not a member, and I'm not going to deal with figuring out how to edit or anything, but if someone out there wants to fix this for the sake of science, please do.  And please forgive me if I do something wrong in signing or posting this; I've never done this before.
71.34.75.211 09:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  As alpha male, Kanzi is not the "undisputed leader" of the group 

message: This article abounds with an inappropriately enthusiastic, commendatory tone toward its subject.  Additionally, several scholars dispute Savage-Rumbaugh's findings that Kanzi is linguistically skilled; S-R's opponents find that Kanzi is a well-trained animal, but that we cannot prove her linguistic comprehension. The Sue Savage-Rumbaugh article mentions Steven Pinker as a critic, but I believe several more exist.  I have already begun to tone down some of the POV statements.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 08:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's the problem? Kanzi perceives a word and responds appropriately. That's no different to what happens with humans. 86.42.248.180 (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: A slanted article

message: The article cites Raffaele, Paul (2006), "The Smart and Swinging Bonobo" but this is not the article Raffaele wrote about Kanzi (Kanzi is not even mentioned). In fact Raffaele wrote two articles about Bonobos and the one that should be cited is "Speaking Bonobo" (link below)
http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2006/november/speakingbonobo.php
68.101.79.58 00:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Rather than delete the first article, I clarified that it's a general article about Bonobos. I added the article that discusses Kanzi to the External Links section. TimidGuy 11:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smithsonian source incorrect 

message: Does it really matter what he looks like? 66.117.221.211 (talk) 22:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to matter to the editor who insisted on its inclusion. But it was indeed odd the way it was highlighted with a major heading. I've integrated it into to biography section, making it less conspicuous. TimidGuy (talk) 11:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appearance 

message: The article gives this example of Kanzi's behaviour :
"In an outing in the Georgia woods, Kanzi touched the symbols for "marshmallows" and "fire." "Given matches and marshmallows, Kanzi snapped twigs for a fire, lit them with the matches and toasted the marshmallows on a stick."[5]".
There is no evidence to support this claim. The reference [5] is to the interview in which Savage-Rumbaugh makes the claim. There is no corroboration.
Negative evidence is as follows:
1. I can't find any evidence of any animal deliberately creating and maintaining a fire.
2. I can't find any evidence of any animal deliberately cooking food.
3. If Kanzi could do these things, it would be a matter of minutes to film him doing so and you-tubing the result. No such film exists.
In the circumstances, I would suggest amending the article so that it reads :
"In an outing in the Georgia woods, Kanzi touched the symbols for "marshmallows" and "fire." Sue Savage-Rumbaugh alleges that "Given matches and marshmallows, Kanzi snapped twigs for a fire, lit them with the matches and toasted the marshmallows on a stick."[5]".
Gnu Ordure (talk) 14:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good suggestion to attribute it like that. We can't use the word "allege," though, per the guideline on words to avoid. I'll make the change but use "said." TimidGuy (talk) 16:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ask, and ye shall recieve. Here is a video showing Kanzi lighting a fire (with a lighter, not matches) and toasting marshmallows: http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_savage_rumbaugh_on_apes_that_write.html#
Thanks, didn't know that one. So let me share this one with Kanzi making fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZX4kkEgoMk Looks like this video is younger. Demoiselle Clarisse (talk) 21:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kanzi the Fire-Maker ??? 

message: Hi TimidGuy.
With regard to my previous point, I'm happy with your judgment, and your edit. I admit I didn't know that 'allege' was to be avoided, but 'said' is OK by me.
I have further points with regard to Kanzi.
If it's OK with you, I'll present them one at a time.
The next example of Kanzi's behaviour in the main article is (my bolding) :
Paul Raffaele, at Savage-Rumbaugh's request, performed a Maori War Dance for the Bonobos. This dance includes thigh-slapping, chest-thumping, and hollering. Almost all the bonobos present interpreted this as an aggressive display, and reacted with loud screams, tooth-baring, and pounding the walls and floor. All but Kanzi, who remained perfectly calm, and conveyed in Bonobo language (interpreted by Savage-Rumbaugh to Raffaele) that he knew that no threat was meant, but that the performance should be apart from the other bonobos so as not to upset them. So a private performance in another room was successfully, peacefully and happily carried out.[5]
TimidGuy, earlier this evening I explained on another forum what the problem is with this. If you don't mind, I'll paste that here, and it should make sense (added bolding):
Here's another extraordinary claim. Bear in mind that in the wild, bonobos communicate vocally, but (according to wiki) "the meanings of their vocalizations are not currently known". 
A reporter visited one time, and (rather inadvisedly, in my view) decided to perform the Maori war-dance, the Haka, in front of a cage full of bonobos. All the bonobos except Kanzi responded to the aggressive display of shouting, foot-stomping and tongue-waggling by going ape-s**t (sorry).
Kanzi sat there calmly, and indicated to S S-R to approach him. When she did, he "let loose with a stream of squeaks and squeals".
So far, so good.
The reporter and S S-R left the room, walked through the complex to another smaller room, where they found Kanzi waiting for them. Kanzi recognized the reporter, and did a little imitation of the dance. The reporter repeated his dance. 
OK. Let's accept all that as fact. 
The question is, what did Kanzi say to S S-R ?
Notice that the sequence of events as I've just described doesn't require him to say anything in particular. After he spoke, the people left the room, and he went to the small room to meet them. I have no problem with Kanzi then recognizing the reporter, nor in copying him.
Maybe he said "I want banana". Maybe he asked for a tickle. He could have said anything. Who knows ? People don't understand bonobo vocalizations.
Oh wait. Apparently S S-R does.
Alone of all the scientists in the world, S S-R has deciphered Bonobo vocalizations and can translate them.'''
And according to her:
Quote
"Kanzi says he knows you're not threatening them," Savage-Rumbaugh said to me," and he'd like you to do it again just for him, in a room out back, so the others won't get upset.”
Oh really ?
He said that, huh ?
He made that complex statement in bonobo squeals and grunts, which only S S-R understands ?
I don't think so.
TimidGuy, I don't seem to be able to break up that block-quote ie I wrote all that with paragraphs and gaps, but they've disappeared, sorry. I've added some bolding, to make it clearer.
The basic point is that scientists don't yet understand bonobo vocalizations, yet S S-R claims she does. And there's no supporting evidence.
The orginal quote is 
All but Kanzi, who remained perfectly calm, and conveyed in Bonobo language (interpreted by Savage-Rumbaugh to Raffaele) that he knew that no threat was meant, but that the performance should be apart from the other bonobos so as not to upset them.
 
In the circumstances, I suggest this be amended to read :
All but Kanzi, who remained perfectly calm; he then communicated with S S-R using bonobo vocalizations; S S-R understood this communication to mean that Kanzi knew that no threat was meant, but that the performance should be apart from the other bonobos so as not to upset them.
 
(By the way, TG, I'm new at this - I hope I'm following the wiki guidelines, but they are somewhat complex. Please advise if I'm out of order in some way).
Gnu Ordure (talk) 21:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please go ahead and make this change. I just glanced at the source and whoever added these points from the Smithsonian article didn't accurately represent what the source said. Feel free to rewrite these points so that they more accurately reflect the source. What's the extent of your interest in this article? It could certainly be more fully developed, and ideally be more grounded in the scholarly literature. TimidGuy (talk) 16:08, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

text: With the original quote, I think it is reasonable to assume that the gestures were the key part. Presumably, S S-R is "well-acquainted" enough with Kanzi to associate the "tone" of his screeching with moods, thus deducing from them that he was not angered by the haka; and combined with his beckoning and pointing gestures she thought she could deduce what she thought Kanzi meant. Whether that interpretation was correct is up in the air, but that seems the most reasonable scenario. --90.34.108.204 (talk) 17:05, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

text: According to Wikipedia guidelines, this interview likely qualifies as a reliable source, but only in the sense that it's a major national popular science magazine. If someone were to insist that this source be used, it wouldn't be easy to override that. But since it's just the two of us, I'd vote for adding some information summarizing some of the reports in the scholarly literature and deleting or greatly condensing the points from the interview. But I wouldn't have the time to look up the scholarly articles. Would you by any chance be able to? TimidGuy (talk) 16:01, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sue Savage-Rumbaugh understands bonobo vocalizations ?? 

message: The article says :
"Sue Savage-Rumbaugh has observed Kanzi in communication to his sister. In this experiment, Kanzi was kept in a separate room of the Great Ape Project and shown some yogurt. Kanzi started vocalizing the word "yogurt" in an unknown "language"; his sister, who could not see the yogurt, then pointed to the lexigram for yogurt.[5] ".
Now in this case, TG, there is a clear misrepresentation of the source, which reads :
"In one experiment she described to me, she placed Kanzi and Panbanisha, his sister, in separate rooms where they could hear but not see each other. Through lexigrams, Savage-Rumbaugh explained to Kanzi that he would be given yogurt. He was then asked to communicate this information to Panbanisha."Kanzi vocalized, then Panbanisha vocalized in return and selected ‘yogurt’ on the keyboard in front of her,"Savage-Rumbaugh tells me."
These accounts are substantially different, as you can see. 
In the source, S-R explains to Kanzi. through lexigrams, that he 'would be given' yogurt - in the article, he is 'shown' the yogurt.
In the source, Kanzi is asked to tell Panbanisha that he would be given yogurt, in the article he isn't.
In the source, Kanzi simply vocalizes; in the article, he vocalizes in an "unknown 'language'".
Why is the wiki article simplified in this way ? Because the claims in the source are incredible. As far as I know, lexigrams do not include words such as 'would', so S-R can't tell Kanzi that he 'would' be given yogurt. Secondly, Kanzi is supposed to understand 3000 spoken English words (that's according to the wiki bonobo article, which references (guess what) the same Raffaele article we're talking about), so why does S-R need to use the lexigram at all ?
More importantly, both the article and the source refer to this 'experiment'. It would be nice to know the details of this experiment, which might describe how many objects Kanzi was shown, how often he vocalized, and how many times Panbanisha responded with accuracy, and so on.
I can't find this experiment. Tonight I contacted the Great Ape Trust, where S-R works with Kanzi, and asked for the reference. I'll let you know what they say. I'll leave off amending the article in the meantime. Gnu Ordure (talk) 23:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for being willing to follow up on finding references. Google Scholar might be a place to start. It will really be great if we can upgrade this article. I'm glad you're giving it attention. TimidGuy (talk) 12:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

text: If you have access to a library, you could likely get them for free. Thanks for pursuing this. TimidGuy (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 'unknown language' experiment... 

message: It's anthropomirphizing to label the discussion of Kanzi as a "Biography." Much better would be "Life."  KC 19:00, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Biography"? 

message: The section "Examples of Kanzi's behavior" begins "The following are highly suggestive anecdotes, not experimental demonstrations." This is probably fair enough as a description of most of the examples given, but not for the paragraph about Dr Nick Toth's successful attempt to teach Kanzi how to make stone tools. As the footnote shows, that was a research project whose results were published in the peer-reviewed Journal of Archaeological Science — more than an "anecdote", surely?
Another study which might be mentioned — published in 1993 in the journal Monographs of the Society for Research in Child Development — compared Kanzi (at age 8) with a two-year-old human child called Alia, in terms of their response to spoken requests. What I suggest — by all means let's keep that list of anecdotes, but move the bit about the tool-making study into a new list of journal-published research projects, which can also include the comparison of Kanzi and Alia. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 01:15, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anecdotes and serious research 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There have not been quite many updates to the main article since ~2015 or so. Is there nobody able to provide more information? Evidently Kanzi is slowly getting fairly old by now, so who knows how long he will be alive. 2A02:8388:1641:8380:3AD5:47FF:FE18:CC7F (talk) 22:15, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent news 

message: There isn't anything in this article about Kanzi's status in 2020. I heard something about Dr. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh being fired and the project discontinued, but I haven't added anything because finding information on this subject that isn't outdated is difficult.
: As per decline reason. --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 06:26, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Status?