Talk:Giuseppe Pitrè

message: His books published during his lifetime, when he was there to edit (and you can bet he would have edited what he didn't approve of), are published under Pitrè; his daughter's signature in a 1941 publication with Pitrè on the title page (presumably approved by her) isn't totally clear, but appears to reflect Pitrè, certainly no reason to think Pitré (); scholarly publications about him and his work by far prefer Pitrè. Upshot: plenty of reasons to assume that Pitrè is the form he used, precious few indications (truth: none that I've found) that he opted or would opt for Pitré. And, obviously, "Standard Italian", although not relevant to the genuine form of the cognome, can accept Pitrè structurally and phonetically as easily as it can Pitré. Easy to understand laziness-carelessness-distraction producing Pitré today, but consciously insisting on distorting Pitrè to Pitré is at best very puzzling. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 18:32, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for those links. They all appear to be primary sources and/or in other languages than English. If we can find reliable secondary sources (in English) and they support this view that might settle the issue, but primary sources have little relevance (they do have some) and non-English sources even less. And non-English primary sources are a very last resort. Andrewa (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand what you're saying. Nevertheless, a smidgen of misunderstanding there, methinks, regarding types of primary sources (thus also their values), and to some extent of what constitutes secondary source. A birth certificate is a presumably factual primary source for an official name, not an opinionated or possibly misremembered interpretation (which, "ironically",  a secondary source could be -- name miscopied, abbreviations, alternate spelling...). In Pitrè's case, however, we do have secondary sources that corroborate the primary source of his birth certificate (and, presumably, his own primary-source declarations): the official government documents produced by the Italian Senate for the Senate appointment, implicitly approving Pitrè for the nation. The same is true of the title pages of his books published while he was alive: Pitrè without any exception that I've been able to find. -- As for the narrow definition of secondary source, there is no published scholarly study of his name that I know of. If there were, it would be the result of research into exactly those sorts of documents mentioned above, in the best case supplemented by a trip to Palermo to quiz knowledgeable people there. As for what anglophones do with it, he's no Petrarch; he's not sufficiently well known in the anglosphere to have an anglicized version of his name. Results will thus vary. The crowd who seem to think that diacritics are optional decorations (e.g. latté but omerta, habañero but jalapeno; Enrique Pena Nieto and Feliz Ano Nuevo), might choose any of Pitre, Pitré or Pitrè, while those who are knowledgeable as a result of research into both primary and secondary sources (very much including those noted above), would most likely opt for Pitrè. A case in point is an Amazon page with Pitre, Pitré and Pitrè, while the authors of the book, who actually know their subject matter, use Pitrè consistently on the cover and within(). Unfortunately that sort of incoherence isn't confined to mass marketers like Amazon. Taylor & Francis, who might be expected to respect the integrity of titles published under their own Routledge imprint, provide Pitré and Pitre on their web page for the same book that has Pitrè on the cover and throughout (). Basta. The evidence for Pitrè couldn't be any clearer. Do with it as you please. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 19:43, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If this were Andrewpedia, I'd probably go with Pitre, on the grounds that the title is just a handle for the article and that gives a nice simple URL that won't cause anyone any problems. But like you, I am restricted to what consensus allows. It has its pros and cons, and can be puzzling, but it works sort of. Andrewa (talk) 01:01, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if more input is needed, but here are two important secondary sources in English: Italian Folktales by Italo Calvino, and The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Folktales and Fairy Tales: Vol. 1, Vol 2 and Vol 3. In the former "Pitrè" is used exclusively, and in the the 3 vols. of the latter, there are 9 pages showing "Pitrè" and 2 showing "Pitré" that are visible to me, not counting one of each in the front matter which is the same in all three volumes. Mudbringer (talk) 09:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent finds, Mudbringer. You've nailed it. Pitrè throughout, except for three occurrences of Pitré in the Greenwood Encyclopedia, two of which self-convict as irrelevant by accompanying the striking misspelling of his given name as Guiseppe. Pitré, Guiseppe in Vol. 1 p xxviii is in a list that could have been compiled by anyone, not author's text (those who have trusted drudge work to underpaid assistants can sympathize). Guiseppe Pitré in Vol. 2 p 556 is in the entry for the Swede Selma Lagerlöf, written by the Norwegian expert Marte Hult, not charged with knowing the niceties of how Italian phonology and spelling conventions relate (although Guiseppe is a bit much even for that). The sole puzzling outlier is Giuseppe Pitré on p 891 of Vol. 3, in an entry by Gina Miele, who is expected to -- and does -- know her stuff. One can only guess at which of any number of causes explains her odd Pitré, but some comfort is offered by a clear Pitrè on the first page of a 2009 publication of hers(). 47.32.20.133 (talk) 16:47, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously the correct name is "Pitrè". The discussion above was made by a LTA known as MaoMio, with a "special" obsession for accents, and some ability for canvassing and harassing. The website of the Italian Senate, and all the other sources, point at Pitrè. Please watch Sicilian Ethnographic Museum Giuseppe Pitrè as well. Cheers --Ruthven (msg) 16:01, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the name, not the move: All evidence is that it's Pitrè.