Talk:Kechewaishke

message: I was going to bring this up after thinking about it some more, because in looking at my primary and secondary sources, none others mention Great Buffalo going to Wash., D.C. in 1855, which was also the year of his death. If he had been sick for "months" like Morse (1855) states, what is the chance that he took such an arduous trip the previous winter at such an advanced age? Holzheuter does give some primary sources from early 1855 to back up his claims, but I don't have them to examine. I do note, however, that on the bronze copy of the bust (pictured in Holzhueter's article) the medal on this Buffalo reads: "Beeshekee the Buffalo, A Chippewa Warrior from the Sources of the Mississippi..." Notice it says "warrior" and not chief. Also, "sources of the Mississippi" is NOT Lake Superior. The Holzhueter article (cited) def. is saying, however, that it was Great Buffalo of La Pointe who went to Wash., D.C. in 1855. No mistake there. The U.S. Senate website says the same thing and I suspect other sources do as well, but I agree that it may be another case of mistaken identity. It might be good to explain this possible case of mistaken identity and better identify who made the 1852 & 1855 visits. Herbwag (talk) 19:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the evidence would suggest that it was the Leech Lake Buffalo who made the trip in 1855, and Holzheuter's comments about the bust not looking like a 95+ year-old man is because it is in fact a bust of a different person than Kechewaishke.Leo1410 (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Kechewaishke travel to Washington a second time in 1855? 

message: It would be interesting to know how Great Buffalo obtained two different names. Has that ever been explained? It would also be interesting to know when and who defined Kechewaishke as "great renewer." I see that "Gitchi waisky" is how he appeared on the Treaty of 1842. But it seems that he was more often known as Buffalo. Most sources give his name as Buffalo, i.e. "Bizhiki," or some form thereof. He appears at the Treaty of 1826 as "Peezhickee (or La Beuf)," the Treaty of 1837 as "Pe-zhe-ke, or the Buffalo," and the Treaty of 1854 as "Ke-che-waish-ke, or the Buffalo." What name appeared on his gravestone? (The linked photo shows a gravestone but the name portion has been broken off). Armstrong (1892), who should have known, seems to consistently refer to him as Buffalo. 
I bring this up because I have a document before me obtained from the Wis. Hist. Soc. some years ago titled: "Names of Chippewa Chief[s] Who Signed the Treaty of 1854 Made and Executed at La Pointe, Wisconsin, September 30th of Said Year." It is undated altho 1854 has been written at the top of page 1, and from the contents it appears to have been compiled at the time of the Treaty. In two columns it gives names of chiefs and the meanings of their names. Column 1 states that "KE-CHE-WAIS-KE" was the La Pointe chief's "Nickname" and under the second column it says that this means "Big Whiskey." Column 1 states his "Real name" was "BIH-ZHIH-KIH" and column 2 that this means "Buffalo." In this same context refer to McKenny (1827), p.461-2. I offer this in the interest of good scholarship and out of respect and concern for Great Chief Buffalo's rightful name and honor.Herbwag (talk) 16:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Aaniin Herbwag. Gidanishinaabem ina? The translation "Great Renewer" is the direct Ojibwe to English translation of Gichi-weshki.  So, do we know for a fact that in the earlier treaties the Bizhiki of La Pointe is this "Bizhiki of the Loon Doodem" and not Bizhiki of La Pointe that is the "Bizhiki of the Crane Doodem"?  As for multiple names, it is quite common... even today (I have a co-worker with 3 different Anishinaabe names). An Anishinaabe may have a birth name, childhood nickname, rights-to-adult name, adulthood nickname and life-renewal name that can extend into the individual's entire life, and then there is the "Christian" name, which can be either English or French, and in early history, a French translation of the person's Anishinaabe name (see Densmore and see Hilger).  "Bizhiki" and its French translation "Le Beouf" are his name, but he was transcribed as Gichi-weshki and not as Bizhiki, because that was his rôle (remember: name = title = function, in Ojibwe and all other verb-based languages).  "Big Whiskey" don't quite make sense since by this period, the word for whiskey was already ishkodewaaboo—"fire-water"—so maybe the whiskey part was untranslated, with the intension being "Big Weshki". I would put that translation together with the name found in the Treaty of Old Crossing (1863) of Bwaanens translated as "Little Shoe" instead of "Little Sioux"... or what about Metaakoziikwe ("Pure Woman" or "Unmixed Woman" or "Fully Woman"—in this case refering to a woman who gives asemaa (tobacco) as an offering), an ogimaakwe for the Waaswaaganing where her name was not translated into English, and if you didn't know that this Chief was a woman (the clue in this case comes from her name), and if you spoke only English and not Anishinaabemowin, one would have never known that there was a woman who was a treaty signatory to the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe!  Or what about Goojijiikwe whose annuity records translate her name as "Rainy Lake Woman" but that isn't what her name means (though that is the implied name); her name literally means "Inlet[-country] Woman" where the Inlet Country is the Rainy Lake region. Or that Mille Lac's Wazhashkokon and Pítad are the same person because that was his name, but in one treaty, the English phonetic transcription of the Ojibwe is given but in another, the English phonetic transcription of the Dakota is given. Gichi-weshki was best known for the Treaties of La Pointe and in both recorded as Gichi-weshki instead of Bizhiki... that is like only some people know of the famous actor Marion Robert Morrison, but everyone knows Marion instead as John Wayne. Food for thought. CJLippert (talk) 00:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Miigwitch for your thoughtful reply. My ojibwe is limited to Baraga and Nichols, and I don't find "weski" in the latter (altho it must be there in some form) and only something like "born of late" (Great First Born?) in the former. I wouldn't even have brought this up except that this old list of the 1854 Treaty signers appears to have been a good faith effort to define their names accurately; possibly at the time of the Treaty as that's how it reads. On p.4 it lists another ojibwe person named "Waish-Key" from the Mississippi Bands and in the meaning column says: "A nickname for Whiskey." Notice it says it's a "nickname." Of course "fire water" is today rendered "ishkodewaaboo" just like you say (in old accounts often seen as "scutawabe"). What disturbs me is how "ishkode" ==> "waiskey" ==> "whiskey" seem a little bit too close for comfort when said out loud to dismiss given the way in which ojibwe words are transformed into so many different versions or renditions depending on who is saying or recording them. This old document does record it as "Big Whiskey" in the historical record. Nor have I seen in any old account (except for this document under discussion) where the name "Ke-Che-Wais-Ke" is ever defined by anyone as "Great Renewer" or "Great First Born." Is there a historic translation or only a modern translation? This less-than-flattering definition of Gichiwaishke, however, is verified in this old document found at the Wisconsin Historical Society and that bothers me and gives the name a degree of doubt, even if the definition is, perhaps, not correct. I would feel a lot better if Armstrong (who loved the Old Buffalo) had used it. On a final note, modern people (even descendents of G.C.B. whom I have met), rarely if ever seem to refer to him as Gichi-waishki but always it seems as Chief Buffalo. So I wonder if people googling for "Great Chief Buffalo (La Pointe Band, Lake Superior)" will be misled by this other name and not find him? I hope not.Herbwag (talk) 19:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: majiikiwis is the "first born." oshkinawe is "adolescent."  oshki is "new."  weshki is the initial-syllable vowel change form of oshki.  The erroneous translation "First-born son" for Weshki comes from Henry Schoolcraft (see Indian Names in Michigan by Virgil J. Vogel). In many dialects, the short unaccented vowels are dropped.  In Ojibwe, the name Weshki can also be translated into "New One," "Beginning One" or even "Youngster."   At these treaty sessions, there usually were interpreters.  Unfortunately, these interpreters spoke (with a high probablility) the pidgin Anishishinaabemowin called "Broken Ojibwa," which was THE trade language then, where there are words that exist in Anishinaabemowin proper but not in "Broken Ojibwa."  Dr. John Nichols, for the Mille Lacs Band, have put out a document called "The Translation of Key Phrases in the Treaties of 1837 and 1855" which has been included in Fish in the Lakes, Wild Rice, and Game in Abundance (James M. McClurken, ed. Lansing: Michigan University Press, 2000) where this issue is specifically addressed.  If you look at Aboriginies of Minnesota by Winchell, the primary entry is not "Ke-che-waish-ke" but rather "Ke-che-waish-keenh" (Gichi-weshkiinh, which is Gichi-weshki with the contemptive suffix) with "Ke-che-waish-ke" and "Ke-che-wash-keenk" as secondary entries.  In addition to the two Treaties of La Pointe, he was the signatory to the 1847 Treaty of Fond du Lac. For the Google searches, that is why we set up the disambiguation page, while on the specific article, provide the major alternate spellings. CJLippert (talk) 21:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for further addressing my concerns. That last post explains a lot. I don't have the Vogel work, however, and would like to see the original Schoolcraft source for "first-born," because even if wrong, it gives me a historic reference to counter the "Big Whiskey" citation that exists at the Wis.Hist.Soc. I've looked through my Schoolcraft material and online, but can't find it. Do you have the original Schoolcraft citation for "weski" as "first-born son"? Also, I did find this "Waishkey" => "whiskey" reference you might want to look at. Perhaps you already know it.Herbwag (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Personal Memoirs Of A Residence Of Thirty Years With The Indian Tribes On The American Frontiers by Henry Schoolcraft.  The name form you're looking for that Vogel alludes is "Way-ish-kee" (without the "Ke-tche") of La Pointe, son of "Waubodjeeg", where "Way-ish-kee"/"Wayishkee" is translated twice as "First Born Son."  Since this word in no way means "first born son," what Schoolcraft might be trying to say is that "Way-ish-kee"/"Wayishkee" was the first born son of "Waubodjeeg" opposed some other person well known at the time with the same name who was not the first born son. CJLippert (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The site you refered above contains the several genealogies, including that of Gaa-dawaabide (Broken Tooth).  The order reflected there, as sourced from Johann Kohl is: Giizhig-gosigwad (Fear of the Sky) > Miskwandibaagaa (Red Haired) > Mitigwaakoozh (Wooden mouth) > Zhaawano-giizhig (Southern Wind) > Weshki (Beginner) > "Wa-ja-wa-daj-kos" (One having \ wearing a very red skin) > Machiwayaan (Great Skin) > Bayaaswaa (Dry one) > Gaa-dawaabide (Broken Tooth).  The Weshki in this line would have been the contemporary to the grandfather of Buffalo (son of Waabojiig (White Fisher) of the Crane doodem), so this Weshki is not the Gichi-weshki/Buffalo. CJLippert (talk) 02:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kechewaishke or Bizhiki? 

message: The photographic reproduction of the tin type is very choppy.  Please either reduce the size for crispness or find a replacement copy of a higher resolution. CJLippert (talk) 23:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Went to the Wisconsin Historical Society and found a higher-resolution photo and replaced the low-resolution photo. CJLippert (talk) 23:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: onizhishin!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leo1410 (talk • contribs) 04:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: wenipazh. CJLippert (talk) 05:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tin type

message: For this article, the map showing Anishinaabe reservations in northern Wisconsin and its environs would not quite be appropriate as the article is about Kechewaishke and not specifically about Treaty of La Pointe, where Kechewaishke was an instrumental figure.  It may be better to show instead a map containing just Red Cliff and Bad River Indian Reservations, along with northern portions of Royce 242 (sub-section c and d) and Royce 261 (sub-section b), as these are the areas with direct ties with Kechewaishke.  As for the Treaty of La Pointe (1854), having a map of Royce 242 (sub-sections a through e), Royce 261 (sub-sections a through f) and Royce 332 (sub-sections a, b and c), with the proposed Reservations of the Lake Superior Chippewas including that of the originally proposed St. Croix and Sokoagon Reservations, and another map of the Reservations of today from that original group would be helpful. CJLippert (talk) 23:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, found a better map.  Leo1410 (talk) 04:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: WI Rez map

message: I am satisfied with the mix of images in the article right now.  The crane signature of Ouabangue (Waabangii???) is not directly related to Buffalo, but it fits with the paragraph it's in.  I also replaced the current map of La Pointe with one from 1755.  Now, the obvious missing image would be the 1849 pictographic petition to the president a.k.a. Chief Buffalo's Petition.  I saw User:Jaawano has uploaded it to commons.  However, I am still not convinced Buffalo had anything to do with that particular petition.  If you follow this link , it has Schoolcraft's original description of the petition where he details who each figure represents (all are individuals from the headwaters of the Wisconsin River I assume Lac Vieux Desert.  The Crane is Chief Oshcawabis).  Now, the Wisconsin Historical Society says in a few different places that it was Chief Buffalo's petition.  I suppose Buffalo could have been involved in asking Oshcawabis to visit the president, but we need a source to back this up.  The historical society seems to cite the historian at Lac Courte Oreilles, so maybe there is some oral history that came down and there's more to the story than what was recorded by Schoolcraft.  But right now, all I see are people calling it Chief's Buffalo's petition.  
Now, it might be a good idea to put it in anyway since it relates to the 1837 and '42 treaties and possible removal.  We could have a note explaining these issues.  What do you think?  Leo1410 (talk) 21:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The petition is in direct response to Wisconsin's statehood and their treatment of the Anishinaabeg.  This is a concern I have address in the comments on why I have rated this "B" in the Wisconsin project.  If we develop the article to discuss the political arena of Wisconsin Territory being carved out of Michigan Territory and the changes brought with it, and then the further deterioration of Indian-White relations upon Wisconsin's statehood that lead to this petition to Washington, DC, at that point the includion of the petition would be appropriate.  Otherwise, I don't quite know where this would be appropriate other than to discuss the background of how the 1854 Treaty of La Pointe was negotiated. CJLippert (talk) 22:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Split off appropriate section.  I don't know if I covered all the particulars you were referring to.  I tried to keep it general as the article is supposed to be about Kechewaishke, but if you think it's missing something crucial, please add it.  Miigwech. Leo1410 (talk) 05:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Petition

message: I think it is ready for GA status, and I am going to nominate it and notify the proper boards.  I still have a list of concerns if we want it to be a FA.
* Grammar- I gave it the once-over and spellcheck, but my construction and word choice is still a bit clunky.  Someone who is good at copyeditting should go over it.
* MOS issues- I don't really know what is or isn't correct here.
* Flow of content- It sort of hits all the big events from written sources as a list, but doesn't spend as much time on Buffalo's personal life or early years.  Names of wives and children, etc. would be nice.  I'm not aware of sources though.
* Naming- I think Kechewaishke is allowed under WP:UE as it is used in English sources and is less ambiguous than Chief Buffalo.  However, as Herbwag said, he is more widely known as Buffalo, and is called Buffalo throughout.  A second opinion might be best on this.  Great Buffalo might work though I like it less.
* Red links- All the ones that are left deserve articles, and my next project is to stub them.
Any other concerns before I nominate?
Leo1410 (talk) 22:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nominated.  Looks like the process is much simpler than I thought.  It just takes one person who hasn't contributed to the article to review it.  FA, on the other hand, looks pretty tough--not a huge priority right now.  Leo1410 (talk) 03:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a beautiful article that I would totally support for FA. I hope my copyeditting helped, but please look over my hidden comments, and fill in the missing refs. As for the naming, I think Kechewaishke is perfectly acceptable, but referring to him as Buffalo throughout is confusing. Even after reading the whole article, a sentence like "Buffalo became ill..." confused me - the guy or the animal? People know him as Chief Buffalo, but unless you want to refer to him as Chief Buffalo every time (which isn't even accurate), I'd change them all to Kechewaishke. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the article for a peer review (as requested at WikiProject Wisconsin). I think there should be many more inline references - 25 is well short of my expectations for an article of this length. I find the writing very good, especially the Trip to Washington section. I don't understand why so much information about his grandfather is in this article. More background explanation of the Loons vs. Cranes would be helpful. Royalbroil 16:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Do 

message: Hi there, I have reviewed this article against the Wikipedia:good article criteria and although I am not quite prepared to pass the article for GA immediately, I don't think there is a long way to go. I have listed below the principle problems which prevent this article from achieving GA status. The article now has seven days to address these issues, and should the contributors disagree with my comments then please indicate below why you disagree and suggest a solution, compromise or explanation. Further time will be granted if a concerted effort is being made to address the problems, and as long as somebody is genuinely trying to deal with the issues raised then I will not fail the article. I am aware that my standards are quite high, but I feel that an article deserves as thorough a review as possible when applying for GA and that a tough review process here is an important stepping stone to future FAC attempts. Please do not take offence at anything I have said, nothing is meant personally and maliciously and if anyone feels aggrieved then please notify me at once and I will attempt to clarify the comments in question. Finally, should anyone disagree with my review or eventual decision then please take the article to WP:GAR to allow a wider selection of editors to comment on the issues discussed here. Well done on the work so far.
===Issues preventing promotion===
(These issues must be satisfactorily addressed, in the article itself or here, before GA promotion can go ahead)
*Please sub-divide the background section. It contains several different themes and issues and is also a large block of text. PLease break it into sub-themes for ease of reading. When you do make sure that the images look OK with the new headings.
:: - created subheadings and broke section into three parts.  Leo1410 (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  - added proper refs.  Leo1410 (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its passed, good work.--Jackyd101 (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA on hold

message: (These issues must be satisfactorily addressed, in the article itself or here, before GA promotion can go ahead)
*Please sub-divide the background section. It contains several different themes and issues and is also a large block of text. PLease break it into sub-themes for ease of reading. When you do make sure that the images look OK with the new headings.
:: - created subheadings and broke section into three parts.  Leo1410 (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  - added proper refs.  Leo1410 (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its passed, good work.--Jackyd101 (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues preventing promotion

message: Substituted at 21:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: I wonder if we could add Benjamin Armstrong who was adopted by Buffalo, who gave him a square mile of what is today downtown Duluth, Minnesota (startling map). The city of Duluth renamed a park and built a memorial (City Pages). You might also be interested in this 2015 ethnographic study of Duluth which includes Chief Buffalo and this story. Unfortunately this wound up in court and could take a lot of reading to get right (US Circuit Courts of Appeals). -SusanLesch (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr. Armstrong was already here. I wikilinked him to his article and added a section to Duluth. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:27, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Downtown Duluth