Talk:Pierogi

message: Let's start with dictionary definitions. Please note that what we should be concerned with is not what the words pierogi and varenyky mean in Polish or Ukrainian, but what they (as loanwords) mean in English. 
Dictionary                          	Pierogi                                                                                                                                                                     	Varenyky
Merriam-Webster                     	A case of dough filled with a savory filling (as of meat, cheese, or vegetables) and cooked by boiling and then panfrying                                                   	(No entry)
Random House Dictionary             	A small dough envelope filled with mashed potato, meat, cheese, or vegetables, crimped to seal the edge and then boiled or fried, typically served with sour cream or onions	(No entry)
American Heritage Dictionary        	A semicircular dumpling with any of various fillings, such as finely chopped meat or vegetables, that is often sautéed after being boiled                                   	(No entry)
Canadian Oxford Dictionary (paywall)	Variant of perogy, which defined as: a dough dumpling stuffed with potato, cheese, etc., boiled and then optionally fried, and usu. served with onions, sour cream, etc.    	Dough dumplings stuffed with mashed potato, cheese, etc., boiled and then optionally fried, and usu. served with onions, sour cream, etc.; perogies
As we can see, varenyky doesn't seem to be used much outside Canadian English, where the definition is identical to that of pierogi (in fact, the dictionary explicitly says these are synonyms). Searching in Google Books, we can also find a few books in English which mention both pierogi and varenyky. Several quotes follow:
* These filled dumplings – called varenyky by Ukrainians, perogies by the Polish – came to Canada with European settlers and are still made by their descendants (...) Fillings might include mushrooms, potato and cheese, sauerkraut, cabbage or even fruit, like plums and blueberries. — Rose Murray's A-Z Vegetable Cookbook
* Varenyky (Russian and Ukrainian: "вареники" – [varenyky]), or pierogi/perogies (the name taken from Polish and used by some Canadian Ukrainian people), are a kind of stuffed dumplings associated with Ukrainian cuisine. Some variants are also found in Moldovan, Belarusian, Russian, Lithuanian, and Polish cooking. (...) "Varenyky" are similar to Polish pierogi. — Ekaterina & Liudmila Bylinka, Home Cooking from Russia
* Different types of pierogi appear throughout Europe and North America, each with their own spelling (...) In the Ukraine pierogi are also called varenyky. — Jennifer Niemur, Global Potluck
* Perogies are sometimes also referred to as vareniki (or varenyky), which derives from a Slavic word meaning boiled. — Mark Morton, Cupboard Love 2: A Dictionary of Culinary Curiosities
* Vareniki (Pierogi) Making Direction. There are two methods of making vareniki (pierogi) (...) And so on, almost every instance of vareniki in this book is followed by pierogi in parenthesis. — Nadejda Reilly, Ukrainian Cuisine with an American Touch and Ingredients
* When Russians see pierogi on the menu somewhere abroad they expect Russian pirogi – baked brioche dough double-crust pie with savoury or sweet stuffing – but what they get is boiled dumplings (stuffed, that's true) that they know as vareniki. — Alexandra Grigorieva, Russian Food Words at Home and Abroad, in: Food and Language: Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cooking 2009
I hope this is enough to show that while there are many different kinds of stuffed dumplings in the world, the words pierogi and varenyky refer to the same kind of stuffed dumplings: semicircular with crimped edges, whith various savory or sweet fillings, boiled and then optionally fried, served with sour cream or onions. — Kpalion(talk) 23:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. Poles don't call pierogi ruskie, "Russian pierohy". They call them "pierogi ruskie" because Poles speak Polish in Poland, not English. "Ruskie" translates from the Polish as "Ruthenian"... "Russian" translates back into Polish as "Rosyjskie", not "Ruskie". Do you see what I see? Poeticbent talk 19:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I got my languages mixed. But what I wanted to quip about is still even more valid: "Ruthenian" in this context is even closer historically to 'Ukrainian' than to 'Russian'. So, what Poles call 'Ruthenian Pierogi', the Ruthenians call "Polish Varenyky". - The irony is of the same kind as in the fact that what called Russian Mountains in America is called "American Mountains" (Amerikanskie gorki) in Russia. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. Rissian does translate in Polish as Ruski as well, because Russian Federation is not the only thing Russian and not all English writers are so nitpicking, unlike those 'moskali' haters who are unhappy with Muscovy usurping the heritage of Kievan Rus.  - üser:Altenmann >t 15:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , I believe I've done my homework, so it's your turn now to provide sources for the claim that "there is plenty of cultural specifics that warrant a separate article for a regional variation." And for square varenyky, too. — Kpalion(talk) 21:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care that much. If ethnic Ukrainians ignore the subject (right now their major enemy is things Russian, not Polish), none of my business either. 15:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. Just out of my head, there are monuments to varenyky. IMO it counts towards WP:GNG of the subject, right? - üser:Altenmann >t 15:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: They are perfectly notable, but just happen to be better known in English as pierogi. Those monuments to varenyky that are labeled as such, are all located in Ukraine, so it's no wonder that they use the Ukrainian name. — Kpalion(talk) 16:07, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Someone had added a sentence in the second paragraph to the effect that sour cream makes pierogi sweet and onions make them savory. I aver that that is just an opinion of one person and isn't universal. Pierogi in Poland and the US (the two places where I have eaten them) are often served with both onions and sour cream. Sour cream does not really make a potato pierogi "sweet" according to culinary tradition per se. This would indicate that it becomes more of a desert, which it does not. I changed it to make it more generic.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.132.42.130 (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Savory vs. sweet 

message: I am from Ukraine, so I am confused of the article`s name. Yes, in Poland this dish is named Pierogi. But Poland is not the only country of Eastern Europe. Others name it Varenyky. By the way Varenyky is initially Ukrainian dish. Now about "Pierogi". In East Slavic languages it means or "pirozhki", or "Pirog" in plural. Naming Varenyky as "Pierogi" is as silly as naming a hot dog as a hamburger. So the article should be renamed and started in this way: "Varenyky, also known as Pierogi... " 
Sorry for my English  178.150.235.29 (talk) 13:43, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pierogi vs. Varenyky 

message: :From Polish point of view, this discussion is entirely pointless. Pierogi, Varenyky, Pirog, Pirozhki or whatever other name. There is another dish in Poland, called Uszka - almost exactly the same like pierogi, just smaller - different size and fillings: exclusively mushrooms. However no Pole will call them pierogi. Pierogi are pierogi, uszka are uszka. If there is distinctive differentiation in Polish between these two dishes, why articles Pierogi and Varenky were merged? Why not to leave different dishes from different countries, with their own specific names, to their own articles? Did anybody try to merge article about Alsatian Tarte flambée with article Pizza? --Matrek (talk) 04:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pointless discussion 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In addition to distinguishing with Russian Pirozhki, compare with Tatar Chebureki, which are popular in Russia.
31.204.174.104 (talk) 22:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Chebureki

message: I tried adding this after discussion above, but was reverted. I propose varenyky be mentioned explicitly in the lead. This isn't just local name, but is also used in English to refer to the same dish when served in a Ukrainian or Russian setting (restaurant, home, or ready made). Unlike naming variants such as "pirohy", varenyky has different etymology. It is also a major national dish in Ukraine.Nyx86 (talk) 14:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's the same dish, then it's a translation of pierogi into Ukrainian, and it isn't used anywhere near as often as "pierogi" in the English-speaking world. If it's a different dish, then it should have its own article. JimKaatFan (talk) 04:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The word "varenyky" is part of Canadian English language. It is specified as such in Canadian Oxford dictionary. Therefore it is mentioned in the lede. --Off-shell (talk) 07:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

text: It is very similar, but with different traditions and associations. It used to be a separate article.Nyx86 (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course varenyky should be in the lead. It is an English word, by the way, as it is in English dictionaries. If pierogi and varenyky are considered exactly the same dish, the name is different enough to be in the lead (especially as it is present in English dictionaries such as the Canadian Oxford dictionary). If it is not the same dish, the independent article Varenyky should be restored, since it was merged with pierogi without a consensus. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:11, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Varenyky in lead 

message: They’re served there traditionally 2600:1000:B16E:691B:519:6070:ECE2:942D (talk) 03:53, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pierogis in the baltics 

message: I don't think, that statement about origin of all dumplings must be in the lead (in Origins it's ok) of the article about pierogi. Article about Italian ravioli even don't have any information of Chinese origin, only about Italian.
::I see your point, but are ravioli of Chinese/Asian origin? Merangs (talk)
:::Read source: "Ojczyzną pierogów są bowiem Chiny. Do Europy, konkretnie do Włoch, zostały przywiezione przez Marco Polo".VladOz (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, of course pierogi aren't originally from China; dumplings are. Dan Palraz (talk) 08:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  China  

message: With no doubt that pierogis, ravioli, empanadas, Australian meat pies, dumplings, or any stuffed dough/ pasta in their basic form "originated" in China..... not ONCE was Poland given the notoriety it deserves for making Pierogi, "PIEROGI". The basic recipe provided, is beyond incorrect. Perhaps a bit more research would help in better defining and describing such a staple dish in the Polish community, especially the American/ Polish community. Thank you 71.86.60.127 (talk) 09:33, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pierogis- a Polish Staple 

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* ВареникСиньки.JPG
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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion