Talk:Ise Grand Shrine

message: What on earth is the rationale behind this renaming?  The Japanese name is "Ise-jingu", no dai in sight, and on Google "Ise Shrine" whups "Grand Shrine of Ise" by a margin of 780 to 54,000.  Reverting. Jpatokal 02:38, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The official name of Ise Shrine is only "Jingu". Jingu has some common names as "Ise-no-Jingu" (伊勢の神宮), "Dai-Jingu" (大神宮), "Ise jingu" (伊勢神宮) and so on. "Ise-no-Jingu" means "Shrine of Ise",and "Dai" means grand. N yotarou 17:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese name 

message: For such an important shrine, there is surprisingly little information here, so I've been trying to expand it with a bit of the history of the shrine and its structure. If anyone wants to help out, especially with layout issues, it would be much appreciated. The original overview has been left untouched, so there may be a doubling-up of some info. I also hope to go down to the shrine in the next week or 2 and take some photos. I'll be there for New Year's eve and get some good photos from that to expand the article even more. Ka-ru 07:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good luck -- you'll need it.  The Ise Shrine is rather frustrating photographic subject, because it's not possible to get within viewing distance of the main buildings...! Jpatokal 10:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: thumb|160pxThis Image is the main building of Naiku. N yotarou 17:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion of this article

message: The article suggests that "The design of Ise Shrine dates back to before the introduction of Buddhism and Chinese influence on architecture". The establishment of the Ise Shrine was in 690 CE, but the oldest surviving Buddhist temple in Japan (the Horyuji temple near Nara) dates from 670 CE. (Actual dates put it at 607 CE) Anyone have a source saying differently?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.247.85 (talk) 13:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Looking into it, the 690 date (actually 692) is the first rebuilding of the shrine. I believe the section in question is supposed to imply the style pre-dates the direct China-influenced style of Buddhist temples. It really is poorly written and needs to be tidied up to be clearer and to be referenced. I've done some tidying up, but more is needed. If I get time, I'll try and do more. Ka-ru 02:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I've finished updating the section on architecture as well as cleaning up the establishment of the shrine section. It should be clear now that, although the shrine building may not pre-date the first Buddhist temple (though they were within 10 years of each other), the style of the building draws from pre-Buddhist traditional Japanese building methods. I hope this resolves the problem. Thanks for pointing it out. Ka-ru 03:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry but I think there're some mistranslations in "www.isejingu.or.jp". For example, "お米をはじめ衣食住" should be translated　to "Rice, other foods, clothing and housing", not "agriculture and industry".--N yotarou 17:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Why isn't the mirror a national treasure? It should be. If Israel still had the Ark of the Covenant, it would probably be a national treasure (although I'm not sure about whether Israel designates national treasures). We honor the Constitution and Declaration of Independence with a federal facility, and Britain exhibits similar diligence with the Magna Carta and Stone of Scone. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 05:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And, of course, Amaterasu's Mirror is honored with the shrine itself, isn't it? So why not make it a National Treasure? THOUGH, the Mirror is part of the Three Regalia of Japan and it is said who possess these three items is the most powerful person in Japan. Understand, that these items are inherited and not 'possessed' because they are all influenced with 'kami'. They can all only be looked upon by the bloodline of the Gods. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 05:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that anonymous 204.52.215.107 proposes an excellent question; and in suggesting what appeared to have been a well-reasoned answer, this user demonstrates how understandable it is to wrongly conflate national treasure with National Treasures of Japan.  I'm copying this short exchange to Talk:National Treasures of Japan#Sacred Mirror; and I wonder if it might be a good idea to re-frame this helpful question so that this illustrative mistake can be incorporated into that article about cultural properties designated as ? --Tenmei (talk) 14:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bogus Chronology

message: There is only one national treasure in Ise shrine (Jingu-shicho, not Naiku ). 玉篇巻 is Makimono, not mirror. And "Sacred Mirror" (ja:八咫鏡 and etc.) is not a national treasure. --N yotarou 18:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why isn't the mirror a national treasure? It should be. If Israel still had the Ark of the Covenant, it would probably be a national treasure (although I'm not sure about whether Israel designates national treasures). We honor the Constitution and Declaration of Independence with a federal facility, and Britain exhibits similar diligence with the Magna Carta and Stone of Scone. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 05:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And, of course, Amaterasu's Mirror is honored with the shrine itself, isn't it? So why not make it a National Treasure? THOUGH, the Mirror is part of the Three Regalia of Japan and it is said who possess these three items is the most powerful person in Japan. Understand, that these items are inherited and not 'possessed' because they are all influenced with 'kami'. They can all only be looked upon by the bloodline of the Gods. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 05:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that anonymous 204.52.215.107 proposes an excellent question; and in suggesting what appeared to have been a well-reasoned answer, this user demonstrates how understandable it is to wrongly conflate national treasure with National Treasures of Japan.  I'm copying this short exchange to Talk:National Treasures of Japan#Sacred Mirror; and I wonder if it might be a good idea to re-frame this helpful question so that this illustrative mistake can be incorporated into that article about cultural properties designated as ? --Tenmei (talk) 14:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sacred Mirror 

message: I've gone through nearly the entire article now and added citations where I could. Any objects to now removing the Citation Required notice from the top of the article? If so, please add the notice back to the article. Ka-ru 01:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation Notice

message: :It would help the discussion if you pointed us in the direction of the "lots of discussion you have missed", as you would think that discussion would have taken place here before the changes were made. The English name is "Ise Shrine" with a capital "S" for shrine (as in "The main shrine in Ise"), not "Ise shrine" with a little "s" meaning one of possibly many shrines in Ise, so that part of your argument is inaccurate. The main argument comes down to whether "Ise Shrine" is the main name in English, or "Ise Jingu". Yes, I know in Japanese it is often called just "Jingu", and I know the homepage of the shrine says "jingu", but there is also plenty of evidence of "Ise Shrine" being used as the accepted English name. Having lived in Ise for 4 years myself, I can tell you that both names are used there in an English context. As has been mentioned above, "Ise Shrine" outranks "Ise Jingu" in usage in Google. Also, using my university academic databases, I found that the term "Ise Shrine" outnumbers "Ise Jingu" 4 to 1 in recorded English sources.
:Taking all of this into account, there seems to have been no reason to change the name of this article without first holding a discussion here and reaching consensus. Until consensus is reached, the article should remain with the original name, "Ise Shrine", which it has had for over 5 now (since the article was created). If we do later agree on a change, every other article that mentions Ise Shrine will also have to be changed. Ka-ru (talk) 06:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am getting kind of frustrated with all the moves User:Takashi Ueki is making without consulting anyone. Please, talk about your moves before you make them. There are others on Wikipedia that have other opinions on the matter. Also, a discussion on this move is being discussed here as well. --TorsodogTalk 13:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies for forcing the inertia of WP. But as we all know, no changes are made without disturbance.  I have plastered my intensions all over my site, and all the main articles that I work on. I have recruited several experts in Shinto/Japanese language, including a Shinto high preist (Guji), and a Japanese linguist/translator. We have been working very hard to get the entire Shinto project up to even a basic accuracy standard. I do not see the need to poll everybodys opinion every time a change is made as nothing would get done. Point taken that there are some who are invested in their opinion and discussion should be had, however it should not stand in the way of progress and accuracy. My apologies if anyone was offended. If you want to discuss changes with me, I have a talk place like everyone else. I will cite all of my work as work progresses, as all the citation notes make for difficult editing/viewing.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takashi Ueki (talk • contribs) 18:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collaboration 

message: *The method to resolve this sort of dispute should be through establishing verifiable, reliable sources. if the intent of this movereq is to simply generate a straw poll of opinions, please note the Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion guideline. Since proper translation is really an expert linguistics issue (actual wars have been faught over mis-translations, after all), the personal opinions of editors (which most certainly include my own!) are even less relevant then usual. issues of past bahavior should be left behind as well, especially since a change could be made down the road regardless of what has already occured (see also: Wikipedia:There is no deadline)— V = I * R (talk) 16:46, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute resolution 

message: Well so far I see no support for the supposition that the Highest shrine in Japan should be called the Ise Shrine. The predominance 75% of the sources that I find all use "Ise Jingu" or "Jingu" and the rest 25% use "Grand Shrine of/at Ise". Sometimes referencing Ise shrines as a generic when making broad statements. I'll provide more if this is not convincing. Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: [Manufacturing Net] - "Ise Jingu" and not a religious or travel ralated article. Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: [The Austrailian] - "Ise Jingu", even written by a non-Japanese guy. Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: [Kansai Scene] - English source article - "Ise Jingu". Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: [The Austrailian] - "Ise Jingu" article. Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: [New York University] - A class article on UNESCO, using "Ise Jingu". Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: [New York University] - Another related class article on UNESCO sites, using "Ise Jingu"  and not a Japanese speaker in sight here either. Takashi Ueki (talk) 21:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: [Britannica Concise Encyclopedia] - Very strange - the concise version uses "Ise Jingu" and then links to Britannica with "Ise Shrine". When following the link, it gives you the option of "Grand Shrine of Ise" which links to no information. These encyclopedias seem to be the worst source for usage due to lack of work. Takashi Ueki (talk) 22:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

text: [Japan Hemp] Even the hippies go for "Ise Jingu" - not the best source, but certainly one that some people will read. And Funny. Takashi Ueki (talk) 22:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Ise Jingu" 

message: *Rosemarie Bernard. "Shinto Ritual and the Public Sphere: The Politics of Representation in Television and Press Coverage of Ise Jingu's Shikinen Jingu". Abstracts of the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association. American Anthropological Association, 1996.
*----. The image world of Jingu: media representation and the performance of rites of renewal at the Grand Shrines of Ise, 1869-1993. Harvard University, 2000.
*----. "Mirror Image: Layered Narratives in Photographic and Televised Mediations of Ise's Shikinen Sengu". In Hent de Vries and Samuel Weber (eds.), Religion and Media. Stanford University Press, 2001.
*----. "Implications of GHQ Policies for Ise Jingu". Lecture presented at the Institute of Asian Research, National University of Singapore, May 27, 2001.
*----. "Hello Kitty Goes to Ise: Imperial Jingu and Nostalgia in Postwar Media and Cultural Production". Lecture presented at the Departments of Religious Studies and Anthropology, New York University, APril 19, 2004.
*----. "Imperial Jingu, or Why Ise Jingu Matters to the Tenno". 19th World Congress of the International Association for the History of Religions, Tokyo, March 26, 2005
**Bernard uses the term Jingu because it is official and accurate (2001 p.339).
**She worked at the Jingu as an information officer (2001 p.347) and is thus familiar with correct terminology.
*Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett. "Intangible Heritage as Metacultural Production".  Museum International 56.1-2 (2004).
*----. "From Ethnology to Heritage: The Role of the Museum". Proceedings of the Societé Internationale d´Ethnologie et de Folklore, 2005.
*Dominic McIver Lopes. "Shikinen Sengu and the Ontology of Architecture in Japan". Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism 65.1 (2007).
*Jeffrey M. Perl. "Regarding Change at Ise-Jingu". Common Knowledge 14.2 (2008).
*Barbara Sandrisser. "Cultivating Commonplaces: Sophisticated Vernacularism in Japan". The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism 56.2 (1998).
*Kyoko Yakushi. "Taboo Words and Saiku Imikotoba". Mejiro Journal of Humanities 4 (2008).
Shii (tock) 19:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Contra'' claims of WP:OR

message: If something like Grand Shrine at Ise would induce either of the dissentients to join the consensus, I would be equally happy with it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:11, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.— V = I * R (talk) 20:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

text: This seems like a good consensus for me, but only if Takashi Ueki agrees. He is doing excellent work to improve all the Shinto-related articles on Wikipedia and I am convinced (especially after reading the articles by Bernard) that his request to me was not some anti-English POV pushing but an insistence on correcting sloppy terminology. Shii (tock) 21:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, we are not free to "correct" the terminology actually in normal use. Derailing this on such a ground would be grounds for WP:dispute resolution.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As shown above, the #1 English-speaking expert on Ise Jingu uses the Japanese term. Shii (tock) 22:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Whom do you mean? And, more importantly, in what context?  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:06, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I went looking for articles about Jingu in terms of its purpose and cultural value (as opposed to architecture) and found Rosemarie Bernard had written the most peer reviewed papers on the subject. Shii (tock) 22:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This line of reasoning is exactly why we rely on WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia doesn't really care about "the #1 English-speaking expert on Ise Jingu", precisely because that entire line of debate is to be avoided. Add references to the article which clearly state the name that you think is appropriate in order to establish a common name. If it's true that "Ise Jingu" is most accurate, then that should be easily aparent in the references. According to (yet another) quick survey of the references that are in the article however, (and also through reliance on WP:MOS-JP guidelines) "Ise Shrine" is the WP:COMMONNAME. We're not trying to dispute any facts here, we're simply trying to not directly participate in these sorts of issues. This debate should occur outside of Wikipedia, and Wikipedia will catch up once the references change.— V = I * R (talk) 22:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

text: *And as far as I can tell - at least one major university library has nothing by her at all - she uses "Ise Jingu" to her colleagues, and "Grand Shrines of Ise" in her book title, which is - at least in theory - communicating with the general public; we are doing the second. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Grand Shrine at Ise?

message: I see all the arguments and feel that one of the two names needed to be used, thanks for the thoughtful discussion and making at least the properly translated name. The Shinto priest that I use as a reference knows the priests at Jingu and even he would accept "Ise Grand Shrine". The Japanese is preferable, but this will work. For me it is acceptable as well. Good to know that the system works. Takashi Ueki (talk) 17:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Final Thought

message: I line was recently added to the section on rebuilding the shrine: "It is a real example of the paradox of the ship of Theseus." I have removed this line as it does not seem to accurately describe the rebuilding process, but have put it here for discussion. From reading the ship of Theseus article, it asks whether something replaced bit-by-bit is still the same object. The main shrine building at Ise is not replaced bit-by-bit, nor is it rebuilt on the same spot, but it is an new building built on an adjacent site to the old. For a brief period of time both buildings exist together. It may serve exactly the same purpose and in the same way, but it is clearly a different building. Thoughts? Ka-ru (talk) 01:01, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ship of Theseus addition 

message: I have no idea what this is supposed to be saying since it's in such bad, broken English. It may have been copied and pasted from some tourism website or personal blog. 
-Feb 2013  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.169.28 (talk) 19:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems in "Kaguraden " subsection 

message: :
What does either sentence mean? —Tamfang (talk) 06:35, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that is definitely hard to understand. Who made the change? ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tell me more about how special it is. 

message: Substituted at 19:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: In this person's humble opinion, the list of shrines belonging to the Grand Ise Shrine detracts from the page, since it substantially interrupts the flow of the article and the reader's attention.  Moreover, it is a list, and the best place for it, IMHO, would be on a separate linked 'List' page, in accordance with Wikipedia practices.  --Vicedomino (talk) 19:39, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of 121 shrines 

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*Added archive https://archive.is/20120530195803/http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/gegu/gegu.htm to http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/gegu/gegu.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://archive.is/20120804182958/http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/maturi/maturi2.htm to http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/maturi/maturi2.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150311175556/http://www.iseshima-kanko.jp/html/en/ise_jingu.html to http://www.iseshima-kanko.jp/html/en/ise_jingu.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090506202855/http://www.ise-kanko.jp/english/html/sight/sight.html to http://www.ise-kanko.jp/english/html/sight/sight.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm the second editor to remove the recent note about controversies. I see it as point of view pushing that's given undue weight, as something that's vague and general and poorly sourced as well. The contributing editor is insistent on reverting the removals so I'm starting a discussion about the disputed content. There has been a request at the relevant noticeboard as well. Courtesy pings for involved and recent editors.  --Killuminator (talk) 23:35, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I thanked you and I stand with this. Yasukuni Shrine should have this but Ise Grand Shrine is very well known for reasons completely unrelated to the war. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 23:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

text: There is also a debate in Japan about Japanese politicians visiting the Ise Grand Shrine. Some members of the CDPJ opposed Kenta Izumi's visit to the Ise Grand Shrine. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:43, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather, I cited Japanese media as the source, not South Korean media, for neutrality in the Ise Grand Shrine article. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can find a source for almost anything, even in reliable sources, but that does not mean something is worth including on a page. The article is more about the politicians than the temple and to me it's making a mountain out of a molehill. The inclusion of some opinion piece and minor event is disproportionate to the place in the article, the scope of the article and the notability of the topic. --Killuminator (talk) 18:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it matters at all to write in the Ise Grand Shrine article that a politician's visit to Ise Grand Shrine is controversial. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:10, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies and point of view pushing 

message: I think we need articles on Naiku and Geku. Thoughts? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 01:51, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: A good point about Geku. Naiku and Geku (the inner and outer shrines) make up Ise Grand Shrine, so it doesn't make sense to make them separate articles, but, as there is already a Naiku section in this article, it makes sense to also include a section on Geku. It's an important part of the shrine. Ka-ru (talk)  — Preceding undated comment added 00:01, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Japanese wikipedia has both of them with separate articles, and all three seem relatively large. But I'm not exactly sure whether the division is working there. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 00:54, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for Naiku and Geku