Talk:Monte Melkonian

message: I split the "Armenia" section into a several smaller ones, as it was overly long and written as an almost single block of text. Augustgrahl
Please remove the Azeri flag at the place of his death so as not to inflame passions. Moreover, give the proper name of his place of death as Artsakh. It has, since the dawn of time, been called Artsakh. Nobody, as far as Armenians living in the region, call it by Stalin's designated name for the region. Thank you kindly. Please don't inflame passions by bating and having his enemies' designated name or flag for the region so we may all discuss these issues calmly. Moreover, please put back the factual similarities to his life and the movie "Borne Identity." Nobody is saying the novel was inspired by his life. All that needs to be recognized is that his factual circumstances had factual similarities with the novel. Please don't twist words to imply otherwise. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for tempering your previous comments on the subject of the flag.  I restored the place name of his death as the properly-sourced, present-day name of the region, but left off the flag in order to facilitate discussion.  The Bourne discussion is not proper here, not without a reliable source who makes that association you are seeking to put forward.  JohnInDC (talk) 19:22, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

text: This is the point at which I may bow out!  I thought I was restoring the article to an earlier, properly sourced state; but I suppose I'm at a disadvantage not knowing the region at all.  JohnInDC (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: A discussion on the merits of including the line about Melkonian being denounced as a terrorist would probably be more productive than the current edit war. -- Augustgrahl 21:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think calling someone a terrorist is appropriate and coming from a book, add a real reference. Nareklm 22:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The statement could easily be rewritten to say that "so-and-so has labeled Melkonian a terrorist."  We should not be labeling this person a terrorist but if someone or multiple someones have made public and notable accusations then we should probably mention it.  --ElKevbo 22:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because the author of a book says "he was denouced a terrorist in Europe" that doesn't make hima a terrorist, just from one source. Nareklm and ElKevbo are right there should be another source not from an author of a book. ROOB323 23:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there needs to be another source if the statement is simply "So-and-so, author of ___, labeled Melkonian a terrorist" or something similar.  There is a huge difference between labeling him a terrorist and reporting that someone else considers him a terrorist.  I'm not even sure we could outright label someone a terrorist since the label is fundamentally subjective.  --ElKevbo 23:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That Melkonian was a member of an organization that utilized terrorism is more or less a fact, however, the statement given in the source is extremely vague, and seems to be a use of [| weasel wording]. -- Augustgrahl 00:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Dacy you better respond you cry to other admins and users about me but you dont dare to reply, you are in the ruling of vandalism. Nareklm 02:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: REMAIN CIVIL. You and other users tries to bleach a well-known terrorist. He was a member of ASALA - terrorist organizations. He was imprisoned in France. Look at this  ,  and in the internet a bunch of others (even if you disregard obviously Turkish and Azeri cites, still many others where Melkonian is called terrorist). It is not weasel word. It is fact. Finally - US Dept. of State Report "Patterns of Global Terrorism" [www.mipt.org/pdf/1986pogt.pdf]. I don't need any efforts to prove that he was a terrorist. We can substitute current reference with others.--Dacy69 04:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Where does it say he was denounced as an terrorist by Europe? NO WHERE, or no where reliable, also the second link is not reliable. Nareklm 04:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dacy69, please read WP:WTA. Such labellings are not allowed in Wikipedia, even if they're sourced. --Mardavich 04:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a use of weasel words, because it brings up the question of who in Europe is denouncing him. Please read the section carefully. -- Augustgrahl 05:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The statement that he was "denounced" for being a terrorist implies that he was personally condemned for his actions. Simply being mentioned in a report on terrorism doesn't really fit the description. -- Augustgrahl 18:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If a person is listed among criminals, he is criminal. If a person's activity is listed among terrorist activity he is terrorist. Why we should play with words? Afterall, he is not mentioned in US State Dept. Report for charity activity. It was terrorism. And in Europe, and in US as well, he is known as a terrorist--Dacy69 02:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Was Monte Melkonian a terrorist? There are certainly notable viewpoints that say he was; I'm not going to argue against that. However, saying that he was "denounced" (this has a different connotation than labeled or defined) as  one implies that somebody  whose opinions are notable for the purposes of Wikipedia singled him out to criticize his actions. One can make the statement that somebody was a terrorist without actually having an opinion on their character. -- Augustgrahl 03:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

text: We don't report personal opinions, only what reliable sources say. Grandmaster 08:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Contentious Statement

message: The 1986 report doesn't say he was a terrorist. It says that he was convicted of forgery and weapon possession charges.Vartanm 23:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't prove anything. Like I said before your source doesn't say he's a terrorist.He was never convicted as terrorist. Vartanm 23:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Global terrorism report

message: The matter about terrorism is that there are some intermediate states between "clearly terrorism" and "clearly not terrorism". It would be necessary to write the matter in a neutral way, and add a section on the perception of the ASALA state with respect to terrorism.--Uyet Ustranimii 20:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A member of terrorist organization, who commits the acts of violence either directly or indirectly, should be clearly spelled as such. The State Department established the fact that ASALA was a terrorist organization, and this is not denied by anyone on this talk page. Monte Melkonian was a member and leader of ASALA. On September 24, 1981, Melkonian directed the "Van Operation" with takeover of Turkish embassy in Paris and holding the people in it as hostages for several days. In 1983, ASALA organized a bombing attack at Orly airport in Paris on Turkish Airlines counter, killing 8 people and wounding 55. Since majority of victims were not Turkish, ASALA split into two warring factions, with Hagop Hagopian defending "collateral damage", while Melkonian insisting that the attacks should directed "strictly against Turkish targets". Do we need more evidence than that, to prove that Melkonian was leading ASALA's terrorist attacks? Atabek 10:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that the word on the street? or you have reliable sources that he was denounced as terrorist in Europe and US. Vartanm 10:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes we need reliale references. You just saying something does not make it true. I could say lot of things, but that doesn't mean it must be true. Everyone has their own opinions on everything, but you can't just come and force your ideas through. You have to prove it with facts. ROOB323 10:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinion 

message: That section does not cite its sources (which should be neutral) and information about the war in Nagorno-Karabakh is not in conformity with NPOV--Dacy69 17:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which sources are POW Dacy69? Put an  next to them so we can add references to those. Instead of tagging the whole section of Nagorno-Karabakh POW. ROOB323 21:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I think you should better look at the section. It is taged with . And I pationately wait for citation based on neutral sources in accordance with Wiki rules.--Dacy69 04:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite a long time passed since this section was tagged - no neutral sources was supplied to prove information. This section should be removed.--Dacy69 19:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section Nagorno-Karabakh 

message: In April 1993 He gave an interview to a British journalist. In which he said "Azerbaijan has expansionist designs which go way beyond Artsakh and include the take over of Zangezour, the southern part of present day Armenia . So we know very well that if we don't resist here, the war will continue into what is known as Armenia right now". 
The video of said interview can be found at the bottom of this article. Youtube video #2 at 4 min mark. Vartanm 22:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: stict POV? this is the talk page. You wanted a citation of what he said, so I produced it. I haven't changed the article or added the source. Oh, and before your claim that Hetq.am is armenian POV. Your dear friend Adil doesn't think so.  May I remind you that this article was locked because of your revert war? Vartanm 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *"The whole section is just fiction, which should be deleted". Deleted???? why deleted. Why not improved. This proves your negative view towards Armenian articles. You want to delete everything you don't like.Vartanm 02:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The sources that you provided even if neutral, were irrelevant. Thats why they were removed. Vartanm 04:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The only source you had that called him terrorist was a book author, the others didn't say he was a terrorist. This argument here right now is pointless. Lets just wait till the arbitration is over. Vartanm 05:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "denial" was invented in late 1990s, in 1970s the attacks were directed at random against Turkish targets. Indeed, one need not to go far but to read the book of Melkonian's own brother, to understand that he was driven by Turkophobia. Melkonian's claim and criticism of Hagopyan that attacks need be limited only at Turkish targets, means nothing other than Turkophobia. Again, I don't understand why this basic fact is being disputed? The very core of Armenian question is intolerance of Turkey and Turks, attempts to divide, carve territories from this country. What's wrong with just admitting the truth. There is nothing anti-Armenian in adding Turkophobia category in this article. Atabek 06:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not turn this into a "battle along national lines." Saying that the core of the Armenian question is intolerance against Turks and attempts to carve up Azerbaijan simply isn't appropriate, especially as there was a request for arbitration over such issues that resulted in punitive measures being taken against many members of the Armenia and Azerbaijan Wikiprojects. -- Augustgrahl 13:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no "battle along national lines" involved in claiming that the person who openly stated and killed civilian Turks or Azeris as a means of achieving his ideological objective is a Turkophobe. This is a fact, which isn't disputable. And it has absolutely nothing to do with ArbCom case or its injunctions. Atabek 16:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "..."-phobe means the person intolerant towards certain "..." idea, nation, origin, country, which as you spelled above was the clear objective of Melkonian. He wanted to "target Turkish" (not Swedish, French, Japanese, etc.) "officials who worked in concert with the Turkish" (not Ottoman, English, French, Russian, etc.) --- so, he was a Turkophobe. In addition, the  Armenian "Genocide" is claimed to be in 1915, during Ottoman Empire, which did not exist since 1920. Turkish republic and what's called "Turkey's government" was established with the start of Republic in 1923. Accepting or denying something clearly not committed by that government is the right of that person, government, but blaming someone for so called "denial", doing so on purely ethnic basis, and further convincing yourself that it did happen and any denier is worth getting murdered or attacked, is clearly phobic/intolerant if not criminal in nature. In addition, if the "genocide" was something that undeniably happened, it would not require decades of paid political campaigning, terrorist attacks or blackmail, but a single tribunal court case -- especially considering the level of Western support for Armenian question in Turkey. Atabek 17:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what it all boils down to is that the ASALA was seeking political change as its foremost goal. While hatred of the Turkish people possibly motivated members to commit acts of murder, the organization was mainly trying to force the government of Turkey to do something that it wouldn't do without violent coercion. It seems to me like original research when trying to determine if Melkonian's motivations were more racially or politically motivated.  -- Augustgrahl 18:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Turkophobia as defined is directed not only against Turkish people, but also against Turkish culture, Republic of Turkey and many times simply Turkic states. Again, you can claim that the objective of Melkonian was to force Turkey to do something (which he and his comrades failed at), but killing a representatives of a single ethnicity with objective of forcing the country of that ethnicity to accept certain claim is phobic against that ethnicity and that country. Nothing surprising or demeaning here. Atabek 19:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Turkish diplomats were not targeted because of their ethnicity but the government under which they served. Targeting members of a government and members of an ethnic group are different things. Really, this was a case of Turkish-government-ophobia. -- Augustgrahl 20:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I provided you above with definition of Turkophobia, which says it includes hatred against the Republic of Turkey. Turkish government is appointed by Turkish people govern the state of Turkey, so the object of phobia is the same. Atabek 01:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Notable treatment of Azerbaijanis? You mean like this? Hitler massacred 6 million Jews, and loved a Jewish girl in his youth. Sure... he wasn't anti-Semitic :) I just wonder how far can the limit of imagination, about calling the member of a terrorist organization killing civilians as a "freedom fighter" , be pushed. Atabek 01:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Bagramyan, were you present with Melkonian in Karabakh to know where he was? Or is this another one of those self-convincing claims? And before accusing me of sockpuppets, helplessly so, please, watch your own editing behavior with regards to WP:NPA and WP:AGF. Atabek 17:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

text: sigh:: In his biography, there is an entire chapter called "No Discipline", a phrase Melknonian uses when describing the actions of some of the men after the battle. The pseudo claim of Turkophobia is still going to be left out; as of yet, you have offered nothing but your personal interpretations. --MarshallBagramyan 16:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interview 

message: Before anybody flips out and goes for the "History" tab, I want to say that I removed much of the content on the article not because there was anything particularly wrong with it (it did however have some POV problems and prose errors) but that the organization of it was messy and it's much better to work on these articles from the ground up (i.e., from Melkonian's early life to his war years and finally, death). The article was also missing many sources so I also hope to fix this by using a combination of sources primarily drawn from Markar Melkonian's biography of his brother but also news articles and journals. 
I will hope that the article will soon reach FA status similar to the Ivan Bagramyan page so I'm very open to suggestions and critiques. Much thanks and with regards, --Marshal Bagramyan 06:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Marshal, you can't just delete whole sections of an article like that without discussion!  There is months of work in that article and if you feel you need to delete a section, you must first discuss it.  Reverting. Serouj 01:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  On most recent deletions

message: This part does not cite any sources and appear to be heavily POVed. Need someone with interest / expertise to revise it. Leminh91 (talk) 22:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revising the Conduct part 

message: I took out the following (while some of these might be worth adding, I think they should be referenced and properly spelled):
==Quotes==
− "The azeris are arming two armies: theirs and ours".   
−    
− "May god keep Elchibey in good health".   
−    
− "Now we've reached the Kelbajar road, when we want to, we'll advance. The issue is whether or not we want to. We'd prefer if the peaceful population gets out of this place safely, and then we'll advance. But it looks like their soldiers won't allow it. So maybe we'll start up again".   
−    
− "There are no boots on their feet.Our boys don't have boots, so when we hit an azeri, we take his shoes".   
−    
− ""Every Armenian,every single Armenian has a right to be in Martuni, to have a voice in Martuni, to work in Martuni and defend it".   
−    
− "The Azerbaijan government has clearly decided to empty the armenians out, and therefore there is no choice but to resist".   
−    
− "We don't have the right to lose in this war".   
−    
− Bold text==Quotes about Monte==    
− *"Monte won't let the enemy set foot on our land".   
−    
− *"Monte doesn't say charge! He says follow me".   
− 
*"He had the mentality of a professional soldier, concer for his surroundings, good will and an uneasy conscience".   
−    
− *"Where Monte:Where victory!".   
−    
− *"Monte?? : The god of Armenia". 
--Morel (talk) 16:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: azeri propagandists are constantly trying to spread their propaganda, claiming Monte was beheaded by ibad huseynov. Monte had an open casket funeral which alone debunks this ridiculous claim. azer general talib mammadov even stated huseynov did not kill Monte.  Stop trying to spread this BS. Ninetoyadome (talk) 06:19, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monte was not beheaded 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

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