Talk:James McCarthy (footballer)

message: It has to be made clear that this boy is Scottish and a British citizen; having an Irish grandmother does not make him Irish; as far as I understand it, and maybe I'm wrong, he was born and raised in Scotland to Scottish parents. He has never played for the Republic of Ireland either; doing so, should he ever, will not make him cease to be Scottish either, as sporting teams are just sporting teams. If this teenager has any personal views on his own nationality, the outside world has not been made aware of it, as his reasons for apparently choosing to play for an Irish youth team (which wouldn't make him a legal footballing Irishman either) have not been revealed. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 02:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, he has now played for Ireland at under age level.--Vintagekits 19:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Playing for Ireland doesn't make him Irish and I'd have strong reservations about the line in the introduction which states that he's a "Scottish born Irish footballer". This just isn't accurate, he's a Scottish footballer who has represented the Republic of Ireland at under age level. He's no more Irish than, for instance, Nigel Quashie is Scottish (note the introduction to his article). This isn't just an issue with James McCarthy's article, the same format has been applied to numerous other players such as Aiden McGeady and Sean St Ledger. All politics and tit for tat debates put to one side, it just isn't accurate to call these players "Irish footballers" and has the potential to confuse readers who are not familiar with their backgrounds. I propose that these articles are all changed to follow the more conventional introduction format as used in the Nigel Quashie article. Blankfrackis (talk) 00:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As football goes - he is Irish - his choice, deal with it!--Vintagekits (talk) 22:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not talking about football, we're talking about his actual nationality. When you refer to someone as an "Irish footballer" you are not talking about what national football team they play for, you're talking about his nationality and in no way, by any definition of nationality, is James McCarthy Irish. Either make some legitimate case for his nationality being Irish (there is none) or accept that the introduction is misleading. Blankfrackis (talk) 00:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ...which isn't to say, of course, that the fact he has chosen to play for Ireland shouldn't be entered into this article as a legitimate decision. All we're asking here is that you word it in a way which doesn't completely violate reality. Blankfrackis (talk) 00:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I'd far rather leave the adjectives out of it entirely. The current article makes it clear that he was born in Scotland but has played at youth level for ROI. That's all we need to say. This is hardly unusual at this point, as both Scotland and ROI have fielded a significant number of "foreign-born nationals" over the last thirty years or so. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Vintagekits has reverted to his preferred version, an unambigous (and flatly false) "Irish" with an obscured link to the Irish FA. This should obviously be reverted as discussed above. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think I might have found the best alternative by looking at the page about Giuseppe Rossi, basically say that he was born in Scotland, that he holds dual British and Irish citizenship and that he plays for Irish youth teams. Ideal in my oppinion as it doesn't favor one over the other, what do you think? 81.231.155.144 (talk) 11:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Having worked on that one myself, I'd say it's a perfect example, yes. That said, we first need a reliable source which actually confirms he's got Irish citizenship. This may not actually be required for Ireland; pretty sure Northern Irish players can play for ROI as a matter of choice without having to adopt dual nationality, for instance. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would say that Richard Gough is an interesting example!--Vintagekits (talk) 12:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Richard Gough self-identifies as Scottish and has a direct paternal Scottish bloodline. In that respect he's no more interesting than Singapore-born Terry Butcher. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I presume you were referring to the case of Darron Gibson with your comment about Northern Irish players? In that case he was able to represent the Republic as Irish nationality law applies to everyone born on the island of Ireland, rather than just those born in the Republic. I think that unless someone can find official word from FIFA that says non-citizens can play for a national team, it would be safe to assume that James McCarthy holds Irish citizenship. 81.231.155.144 (talk) 19:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd rather not assume anything. Regardless, we won't have to once the recent rewording is undone to reflect the previous consensus, which I'll do tomorrow unless there's a more compelling argument to the contrary. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Present concensus of 1? Actually my learned IP friend is correct on this issue you need an Irish passport to play for Ireland - thems FIFA rules. Irish is as Irish does! --Vintagekits (talk) 22:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Calgacus, Blankfrackis, the learned IP and I are all in agreement that the use of the term "Irish" as an adjective is inappropriate here. Couple that with the consensus to the same effect on talk:Giuseppe Rossi. As such, there is certainly consensus. The same obviously applies to Aiden McGeady, which I see you have likewise unilaterally edited to reflect your own POV while this discussion was ongoing. Both will be adjusted. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unsurprisingly, Vintagekits has reverted this again, with the summary "rv no consensus". If anyone else supports his position then please speak up. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

text: The correct terminology would be "Scottish-born Irish footballer", as is the case with many dual-nationality footballers who've played internationally for countries they're not born in? --Jimbo[online] 11:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, this is patently nonsense, as has indeed been discussed to death on countless other dual-nationality articles. That someone plays for Ireland does not make him "Irish" in itself, as evidenced by the presence of several self-identifying Englishmen in the recent Scotland squads. "Scottish-born" implies that his nationality has changed, where it has not. Adding a label by courtesy of an adjective where we can simply explain the exact situation in a couple of sentences is a far preferable solution and is the one which has support here, on talk:Giuseppe Rossi and in any other recent discussion of the issue. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I support Chris' version - the statement along the lines "born in X, played for Y" is incontrovertible and neutral.  I just await the inevitable "which flag do we use in the squad list?" discussion... Knepflerle (talk) 11:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I think that wording is correct. I would only change it to say "Irish international" (piping to the full international team) if he plays for the full national team. I think it is also worth noting in this discussion that McCarthy only chose to play for Ireland because they were the only country who selected him  (ie if the SFA had pulled their finger out 2-3 years ago he would have played for Scotland). This is somewhat similar to McGeady. In his case the SFA had some bizarre dispute with the schoolboys association which meant that they didn't offer to select him, leaving Ireland as the only national team willing to pick him. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why is this preferable to explaining the concept over two sentences, which eliminates ambiguity? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Holds an Irish passport and plays for Ireland - therefore Irish.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality 

message: Well, another week has passed, and there's still no further support for the change, so I've restored the previous wording. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The correct terminology would be "Scottish-born Irish footballer", as is the case with many dual-nationality footballers who've played internationally for countries they're not born in? --Jimbo[online] 11:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, this is patently nonsense, as has indeed been discussed to death on countless other dual-nationality articles. That someone plays for Ireland does not make him "Irish" in itself, as evidenced by the presence of several self-identifying Englishmen in the recent Scotland squads. "Scottish-born" implies that his nationality has changed, where it has not. Adding a label by courtesy of an adjective where we can simply explain the exact situation in a couple of sentences is a far preferable solution and is the one which has support here, on talk:Giuseppe Rossi and in any other recent discussion of the issue. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I support Chris' version - the statement along the lines "born in X, played for Y" is incontrovertible and neutral.  I just await the inevitable "which flag do we use in the squad list?" discussion... Knepflerle (talk) 11:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I think that wording is correct. I would only change it to say "Irish international" (piping to the full international team) if he plays for the full national team. I think it is also worth noting in this discussion that McCarthy only chose to play for Ireland because they were the only country who selected him  (ie if the SFA had pulled their finger out 2-3 years ago he would have played for Scotland). This is somewhat similar to McGeady. In his case the SFA had some bizarre dispute with the schoolboys association which meant that they didn't offer to select him, leaving Ireland as the only national team willing to pick him. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why is this preferable to explaining the concept over two sentences, which eliminates ambiguity? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Holds an Irish passport and plays for Ireland - therefore Irish.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update 

message: My opinion, as given in the previous section, is that due to the disputed nature of nationality (especially as it pertains to sports representation) that we should not use broad terms such as "Irish" or "Scottish-born" to refer to the McCarthy's nationality. Instead, we should simply explain, in a couple of sentences, exactly what the facts are: that McCarthy was born in Scotland, but has chosen to play for the Republic of Ireland. This revision contains wording that seems appropriate.
The same compromise was reached (after considerable debate) on Giuseppe Rossi, who is in an almost identical situation.
Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinion by [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham]] 

message: I believe the info should read something like this:
James McCarthy is a professional footballer who plays for Wigan Athletic. Although born in Scotland, McCarthy is eligible to represent the Irish football team at international level, and he has earned caps for the Irish under-21 side.
Or something similar. GiantSnowman 11:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reasonable objection to this wording: it's neutral, objective and sticks to the facts. Blankfrackis (talk) 12:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indeed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:46, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Without doubt not "indeed". How many times does it have to be stated that he was born in Scotland. It already says it in the lede and in the infobox and in the main article. Ok, ok! we get it - he was born in Scotland - we know that unashamed rampant bigots in Scotland have a problem with him and McGeady being Irish but thems the facts!--Vintagekits (talk) 12:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unless you are arguing that those opposed to your proposed wording are "unashamed rampant bigots" then I don't see what that has to do with anything. Are you willing to admit that there are other arguments for not labelling McCarthy as unambiguously "Irish" than bigotry? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  In Scotland - its the main reason. Like I said above it's stated three times in the article that this Irishman was born in Scotland - I see no reason to have it a fourth.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  You didn't answer the question. Are you prepared to accept that there are arguments other than bigotry for avoiding the unambiguous use of the term "Irish" here, and furthermore that those arguing with you are not doing so because they are bigots? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  None that are valid enough to over-ride my points above. How many times do you think it is enough to state that he was born in Scotland in the article?--Vintagekits (talk) 15:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The same amount of times you mention the fact that he is Irish - that's a fair compromise, n'est pas? GiantSnowman 15:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So it is already mentioned once in the first sentance so that should be enough then eh!?--Vintagekits (talk) 16:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as both birth-place (Scotland) and sporting nationality (Irish) are given equal weight, I don't care if it mentioned 1 time or 100 times. GiantSnowman 16:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Currently how many times does it stated that he was born in Scotland in the first sentance and how many times does it say he is Irish?--Vintagekits (talk) 16:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't care how many times it says it now - the point of this discussion is to work out what it should say! GiantSnowman 16:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Answer the question!--Vintagekits (talk) 16:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My, my, who's being aggressive now then, eh? The introduction of the article mentions Scotland once and Ireland once. No problems, surely, even for you? GiantSnowman 16:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

text:  That he was born in Scotland is not disputed. A more accurate comparison would be to the number of times it is mentioned that he has opted to play for Ireland, or to compare the number of times he is referred to as "British" to the number of times that he is referred to as "Irish". In my opinion both of those ratios should be 1:1, or 0:0 in the latter case. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinion by [[user:GiantSnowman|GiantSnowman]] 

message: Hello chaps wading in here as a totally uninvolved editor. Forgive my ignorance re: this question -- poked around a bit and found conflicting sources on whether or not McCarthy holds dual citizenship. Or, maybe put it this way -- does he hold or would he be eligible to hold both British and Irish passports. Has this been resolved? RomaC (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As of yet, no sources have been provided which give any indication of his actual citizenship. We've been going entirely by inference, which isn't the best way to do things. Theoretically, he is British by birth and can claim Irish citizenship by descent, but we have no actual proof that he is either. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As another uninvolved editor, I would therefore support your suggestion at the top which is to state only: 'exactly what the facts are: that McCarthy was born in Scotland, but has chosen to play for the Republic of Ireland'.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:42, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think everyone is in agreement save for one party (Vintagekits). Yet, it seems the introduction was again changed to the "Scottish born Irish footballer" line. Vintagekits' argument was thoroughly addressed by the anonymous poster above - an argument which Vintagekits has failed to provide any response to for the best part of a month - and every other contributor is in agreement. There really is no more debate to be had and any change back to the "Scottish born Irish footballer" introduction should be immediately reverted. Blankfrackis (talk) 12:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question by [[user:RomaC|RomaC]] 

message: Move to Everton has been completed. http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11671/8903847/transfer-news-everton-sign-james-mccarthy-and-romelu-lukaku  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.157.131 (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Everton 

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