Talk:Robert Sirico

message: Per WP:BLP potentially defamatory material about a living person must be sourced to reliable and verifiable sources. Articles must be written in a neutral point of view. Any statements or material which violates these policies may be removed by any editor. Edison 19:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:BLP

message: I don't understand something here: someone had submitted a scathing entry for Sirico, some of which was true. Is the truth according to wiki just a matter of who types loudest/most frequently? Do people know that he's got a whole crew of paid staff that just sit around waiting for his entry to change on here? They won't let the truth get out about his past,. I think that runs counter to the wiki ethos. He's got the money and the staff to monitor his entry. People give this guy money all the time thinking that he's walked a particular path in life when the reality is very different. discredits this whole thing.  01:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scathing

message: Here is the link I'm trying to post - catholic priest exposed as alleged homosexual
In an open letter to a Vatican official, writer Randy Engel claims that Rev. Robert Sirico of Michigan has a history of supporting gay rights, but actually officiated at a gay marriage.
Tuesday, February 13, 2007
By Randy Engel 
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:0Ow6xzNHlfAJ:www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp%3FidCategory%3D34%26idsub%3D172%26id%3D7936%26t%3DCatholic%2Bpriest%2Bexposed%2Bas%2Balleged%2Bhomosexual+first+gay+marriage+sirico&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
I'm not sure how, but I must have made a boo boo in the HTML somewhere.  
I know this man and yes, this information here is true.  This letter is official and can be verified by contacting the diocese.  I believe the truth should be told before he takes advantage of anyone else.  Would someone please be kind enough to help me fix the reference? Thanks
-Konned in Kalamazoo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.110.249.102 (talk • contribs) 05:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Truth

message: Okay, I just removed a large addition made within the last twenty-four hours. I removed it because it makes assertions that seem to me to be making a case--that is, pushing a point-of-view--rather than simply relaying verifiable, notable, encyclopedic information. The addition--found below in its entirety--clearly fails to meet WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and therefore WP:BLP. It is also largely a direct copy of one of the cited sources (), which means that there may be a copyright violation issue as well. Please see my intratextual comments below. (For the sake of clarity, I'm removing the ref tag code and just leaving the citations in-line.)
Father Robert A. Sirico was born on 23 June 1951, in Brooklyn, N.Y.  He is an Italian-American of Sicilian descent. He apostatized from the Catholic faith in his late teens. His time spent in the U.S. Navy after high school graduation was of short duration. Following his discharge from the Navy, he settled in Seattle where he took up with a cult called the Jesus People and joined their male commune known as Joshua’s House. (Note: MIRACLE CLAIMS TESTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT’S WORD -A. Ralph Johnson ) By the age of 19, his brief flirtation with Marxism over, the charismatic youth embarked on a new career as an itinerant Pentecostal preacher and established his own “church” known for its “miraculous faith healings.” 
:Okay, the source used here is clearly a non-notable one. To use this by itself seems to me to fail the verifiability test.
In 1972, Sirico established a different kind of “church” - a satellite of the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Church (UFMCC) founded by homosexual activist Rev. Troy Perry in Los Angeles in 1968. The UFMCC teaches that homosexuality is neither a sin nor a sickness and that “homosexual relationships should be celebrated and affirmed.” In 1975, Rev. Sirico moved to Los Angeles and became the Executive Director of the Los Angeles Gay Community Center, one of the oldest and largest lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) organizations in the world. He also continued his work as a minister of the UFMCC.
:There are no sources offered to support these assertions, and the way that they are framed certainly leads one to believe that it is written to be persuasive rather than informative. This, in my opinion, fails to comply with WP:NPOV.
On 21 April 1975, Rev. Sirico made the annals of “gay” history as a pioneer “gay rights” activist when he performed the first same-sex “marriage” in the United States of two male homosexuals with a civil marriage license at the First Unitarian Church of Denver, Colorado. (Note: Legally wed in Colorado, 1975: pioneering gay couple Anthony Sullivan and Richard Adams didn't just get legally married 29 years ago; they stood up and demanded to be recognized
Advocate, The,  March 30, 2004  by John Caldwell )
:This source seems notable, but it doesn't mention Sirico having been involved in the event that is being reported. That means that the source has no place in the article about Robert Sirico. It may be a good source for the History of same-sex unions article, though, especially since that article already mentions this event.
One year later, on 12 April 1976, Rev. Sirico, dressed in a black clerical suit with a Roman collar made the pages of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer under the headline “‘Male Slave Mart’ Raid in L.A. Called a Mistake.” As reported by the Seattle  P-I, on April 10, 1976, Los Angeles policemen dressed in riot gear arrested 40 persons participating in a homosexual “slave market” held at the Mark IV Health Club in Hollywood. The bathhouse was operated by a sadomasochist cult called the Leather Fraternity. Nude “male slaves” were led on stage by an auctioneer and inspected by potential buyers. “Slaves” went for $10-75. The undercover policeman at the auction told the press that he picked up a man for $16 following assurances from the auctioneer that the ‘volunteer for charity’ would perform specific sex acts on him. The auction room came complete with its own dungeons and cell blocks and sadomasochist apparatus including leather harness restraints and chains. The event was sponsored by the Los Angeles Gay Community Center headed by Rev. Sirico, who told the P-I reporter that the Los Angeles Police Department was “out to get” the gay community. Rev. Sirico called the event a “harmless fund-raising event” staged to raise money for the Center’s venereal disease clinic.
:This P-I article would be a notable one, but I have been unable to verify this source since the online archives do not go back that far. This is a pretty serious claim, especially given Sirico's current occupation, so in order to comply with WP:BLP, I think we need to be pretty sure about the source. As that policy states, "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, and user pages." 
The UFMCC in Los Angeles has confirmed that the Rev. Robert Sirico involved in the two history-making “gay” events at the Unitarian Church in Denver in 1975 and the Mark IV Health Club in Los Angeles in 1976, is the same Father Robert Sirico, currently the superior of St. Philip Neri House in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
:Where can I read about them having stated this? If this is original research, it can't be used, especially for making such a controversial claim. See WP:NOR.
On 13 May 1989, after completing his novitiate with the Paulist Fathers at their House of Studies in Washington, D.C., and his scholastic training at Catholic University of America, Robert A. Sirico was ordained a priest of the Paulist Order, a Society of Apostolic Life like the Oratorians. On 2 February 1961, all superiors of Religious Communities, Societies without vows, and Secular Institutes received a copy of the document “Careful Selection And Training Of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders” from the Congregation for Religious.  The Congregation noted that while the Instruction was “privately circulated” its contents were “a matter of public law.” [F] The principle subject of the discourse of the Instruction is the proper vetting and training of candidates for Sacred Orders. The Instruction were in force, but obviously not enforced by the Paulists, at the time of Sirico’s ordination.
:Not only is this seemingly irrelevant in an encyclopedia article about Robert Sirico, it is persuasive writing rather than informative, encyclopedic writing. Also, it if offered with no sources to support it and clearly pushes a particular POV. 
On the matter of the selection of  seminary candidates, the essence of which is the discernment of character, the tone of the 1961 Instruction is exacting, even strident Moral certitude as to the fitness of the candidate for ordination is demanded of the superior. The Instruction firmly acknowledges that chastity is the heart of religious life and the priesthood. Any candidate unable to observe ecclesiastical celibacy and practice priestly chastity, no matter what other “outstanding qualities” he possesses, is to be barred from the religious life and the priesthood. The 1961 Instruction specifically prohibits the advancement to religious vows and ordination of habituated onanists as well “as those afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers.” Even though, by the late 1980s, the Paulists were routinely ordaining known homosexuals for the priesthood, their ordination of Sirico was especially alarming given his long habituation to the vice of sodomy and his public record of homosexual activism. ("Catholic Priest exposed as alleged homosexual--In an open letter to a Vatican official, writer Randy Engel claims that Rev. Robert Sirico of Michigan has a history of supporting gay rights, but actually officiated at a gay marriage." Tuesday, February 13, 2007 By Randy Engel   ">)
:This appears to be more original research, and it is certainly more POV-pushing. Of course, this is where we see the copyvio source being cited. I hope it is clear why I removed this large, but fatally flawed contribution. DickClarkMises 20:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research, etc.

message: I have reverted this revision by an anonymous editor due to WP:BLP concerns. My rationale is identical to that offered above. Controversial assertions about living persons must be written neutrally, and must be based on independent, reliable, verifiable sources. DickClarkMises (talk) 20:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 5 Jan reversion

message: Coming full circle from the beginning of this discussion page:
Per WP:BLP potentially defamatory material about a living person must be sourced to reliable and verifiable sources. Articles must be written in a neutral point of view. Any statements or material which violates these policies may be removed by any editor.  From the link added to the External Links section quoted: "...the goal of suppressing St. Philip Neri House and removing Father Sirico as its superior. This is the ultimate purpose of posting The Sirico Brief."  This article is clearly not neutral.  Also, per Wikipedia:External_links I have removed social network external links. Vilepickle (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  10/24/2010 

message: Now that Sirico's writing in a variety of publications has been established and cited, those articles provide substantiation for most of the claims in the next sentence about what he covers in his writing. I will look for something he has written about bio-ethics, and at that point, there will be full sourcing for that sentence. WP:NOTOR is not violated, I don't think, by extracting the subjects of the articles from their titles. The question is, should all the citations, which are currently each after the individual publications of the previous sentence, be moved all in a row to the end of the paragraph? That seems really clumsy to me, so I won't do that unless someone thinks it's necessary. Soonersfan168 (talk) 15:01, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Topics of Sirico's writings 

message: I've added some well-referenced history on his gay activism.  It's presented very NPV and the sources cited are the Seattle PI which is the major daily newspaper in Seattle.  There's more that could be written, but his performance of gay marriages, founding of gay groups, and gay activism/arrests are part of the story and I think well-referenced newspaper accounts should be part of the page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.214.179 (talk) 15:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay Rights Activism