Talk:Sacrament

message: I just changed the order in which the sacraments are listed. Part of the order change is indisputable. However, since modifying the order, I've learned that some Catholic churches have changed the previously established order in which the sacraments are received. I'm now researching this further, but if somebody has good reason to believe one of these orders is preferable, I'm open to it. Please do comment before (or after) reversing it, though, as I'm interested in your sources/reasoning. Jtrnp (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of Sacrements 

message: I submit that the section on Born Again Christians should be either deleted or greatly revised.
A.  There is no single "Born Again Christian Church", and, thus, no agreement upon the meaning of sacraments and ordinances.
B.  As previously noted, many Born Again groups (such as Baptists) would use the term ordinance rather than sacrament - thus rejecting the idea that performing the act imbues the participant with any saving grace.
C.  There is no agreement on the number of ordinances.
D.  Finally, and perhaps most critically, the passage is unsourced and seems to represent the ideas of the poster only.
Thoughts?
                                       Bonbga (talk) 02:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Born Again Christians

message: Update: Need some help, this page keeps reverting back to Christian relevance only.
I made the page from a NPOV only to have it changed back. Everyone seems to agree.
141.157.181.139 (talk) 06:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To do? —Viriditas | Talk 10:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Also the use of Ayahuasca in the União do Vegetal is an example of sacraments used in other religions. __meco 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wider use of sacrament

message: I've just created a redlink for dominical sacrament in this article and in article George Wishart. I have no idea whether there's enough to say about the topic to make a full-fledged article; if you think there is, please make an article there. If you're sure there's not, please make a redirect and do whatever fixing needs to be done in whatever target you pick (e.g., if you redirect Dominical sacrament to Sacrament, remember to bold the term, mention it near the top of the page, and remove the link from Sacrament to Dominical sacrament). Thanks. --Quuxplusone 20:24, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dominical sacraments 

message: It seems a bit strange to begin with the protestant view of sacraments (the exception) and then move on to the rule. It's as bizarre as if the entry for cheese began "some people think cheese is soft, everyone else believes cheese is a dairy product made from milk". The overwhelming majority of xtians fall in to the "Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, the Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Christians, members of the Anglican, United Methodist, and Old Catholic traditions, the Independent Catholic Churches and Lutherans" category so it just seems bizarre to begin with the "among many protestants" line.
I would make the swap myself but I find wikipedians intimidating.
:Well, most of us are actually pretty nice guys/girls.  I am going to review the article now, it's history, etc., and then may proceed to make the change you suggest.  Also, please, in the future, sign your entries on talk pages.  If you don't have an account/user i.d., it will take about one minute to set one up.  --Midnite Critic 22:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, review done.  The very first sentence gives the traditional view held by the Christians you mention;  then, the second sentence contrasts this with the view held by "many Protestants."  THEN, we return to a more amplified statement regarding the first sentence.  Thus, IMH (Oriental Orthodox) opinion, the first three paragraphs are quite balanced.  --Midnite Critic 22:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Intro 

message: I have heard/read on several occasions that a sacrament is a ritual that uses the physical world to reveal something about the spiritual world. I can't lay my hands on a source for that at the moment. I have just always had that in my head as the generally accepted definition. After reading this article and the discussion, it seems like a very good definition to use both because it is more encompassing than the current one--it would even include the marijuana guy's use. Also, this is a general intro to a somewhat complicated subject. IMHO, the current first line does not state something understandable to someone who is not already familiar with theological terminology. Like the earlier poster, I am also too chicken to make the change, especially since there's a discussion going on. DaniU 20:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A better definition 

message: I removed the following per my understanding of WP:EL, they appear to be commentaries rather than authorities.
* Sacramental Theology reading list
* The Sacraments as Means of Grace by Gregory Neal
* fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html The traditional Catholic Sacramental Rites their meaning and the rites themselves (see "Sacraments and Life Events" section)
Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 21:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: *Roman Catholicism is used for the Roman Catholic Church.
*The Eucharist is used for Holy Eucharist
*Catholic Marriage is used for Matrimony
*The Sacrament of Order is used for Holy Orders patsw 03:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why aren't the common Catholic names used if this is a Catholic list? 

message: I think the following statement in the article is incorrect:
:Generally, there are seven sacramental rites used since apostolic times in the Church, though not all of them are accepted as such by all groups. These are: Baptism, Chrismation (or Confirmation), the Eucharist (Communion), The Sacrament of Order (Ordination), Reconciliation of a Penitent, Anointing of the Sick, and Matrimony. 
I believe marriage only became a sacrament sometime during the Middle Ages.--24.52.254.62 03:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the citation from the Council of Trent, that defined marriage as one of the seven sacraments.  However, it is worth noting, that the "definition" didn't make Marriage a sacrament, but rather recognized its nature as a sacrament.DaveTroy 16:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage came later. 

message: I changed the name of the Reconiliation to Penance, since that is what the CIC 1983 and the Latin of the Rite is -- Penance, despite that it does include confession, and is popularly known by other names.DaveTroy 16:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  an aside about names 

message: This is a predominantly Catholic article, and it shouldn't be. There's a great deal of difference between more "traditional" views, such as those held by the Protestants, Baptists, Pentecostalists (sp?), and Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the like. The differences are confused a lot here, neither are they presented in a clear, unbiased light. There's a lot of bias toward Catholicism here as the foundation for the definitions of the sacraments, but the idea of the sacraments originated with more more traditional, fundamentalist sects, like the Baptists. Long before the Seven Sacraments came around there were only the original two: Communion/Lord's Supper, and Baptism. That ought to be noted here.
In any case, this article needs to be more defined, more clear-cut, with greater clarity between the Protestant view and the Catholic view. Also, there's a lot of needless repetition between paragraphs about the Catholic view as opposed to other views - seriously, it gets quite redundant and could be organized better. I've tried to clear the major "difference" problems in the first few paragraphs, but there's a lot of grammatical stuff as well as quality issues that I haven't touched in the least. ---Randomdej (talk) 02:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church existed long before the Baptists. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 23:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion between traditional Christianity and Catholicism 

message: I've reverted the addition made today by 77.160.68.32 claiming that the idea of a sacrament originated in Osiris worship.  The material that he/she posted makes no demonstrable connection whatever with the subject of this article, which is clearly stated at the top:  "This article is about sacraments within Christianity."
I don't enough to say whether the Christian rite was or was not influenced by pre-Christian practices; but without reputable, verifiable sources making the connection, that material belongs somewhere else.  Textorus (talk) 02:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing irrelevant Egyptian material 

message: This sentence "As defined above, an example would be baptism in water, representing (and conveying) the grace of the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Forgiveness of Sins, and membership into the Church" ends with a wikilink to Church. Which would be a more appropriate wikilink: Church (building), Christian Church or Ecclesia (Church)? - DigitalC (talk) 01:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:Disambiguation pages with links]] - [[Church]] 

message: It looks like this page was vandalized by someone who has a history of it.  It was done by an anonymous IP, but the talk page is filled with vandalism warnings.  It looks like he has just been warned, but no one has blocked him for a bit.  Any admin who can help me here, please leave me a message on my talk page; it would be greatly appreciated. Shanem201 (talk) 21:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalized 

message: At this time, approximately 1/3 of the text of this article is based upon information submitted by a single anonymous user, with not a single footnote or citation.  
I recommend (a) deleting it pending the addition of some footnotes. and (b) when and if restored, it should be limited in volume.  The current amount of material on this topic far exceeds its importance.  if the mater is sufficiently subject-worthy, it should have its own article with a very short paragraph in this article.
Bonbga (talk) 21:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:   Entheogenic Sacraments 

message: (and not exactly neutral in tone), esp. in the first paragraph. —Wegesrand (talk) 11:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglican section horribly verbose 

message: Second Paragraph: I have removed the "Most anglicans ... seven sacraments" because it is unsourced and in part because as far as I know all such affirmations of this type even when sourced are based on evidence which is statistically inadequate. I have also reworked the rest of the paragraph and provided references.
Third Paragraph: The first sentence contains an apparent non sequitur: how can sacerdotal functions be assigned to a deacon who, by definition, is not a priest?  Made the 'ex opere operato' more precise and given sources before balancing it with references to the articles on the reception and use of the sacrament.Jpacobb (talk) 20:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglican Section Rewrites 

message: A recent IP edit removed the section Hinduism on the grounds that this article deals with the Christian sacraments.  This may be historically true and on June 1 2008 a section on Egyptian was removed on the same grounds with the comment that the article states that this is about Christian sacraments.  This statement has disappeared but is still implicit in the start of the General definitions section.  I suggest we need a policy decision and should either rename the page as Sacraments (Christian) with the appropriate redirects and disambiguations or restore the deleted section and do a certain amount of copy editing to bring the  first section into line.  I personally incline to rename and leave it to interested editors to produce a general "Sacraments" page since the contents of the present one are almost all orientated to Christianity balancing them would be a major task. Jpacobb (talk) 17:31, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *My old standby source, the Encyclopedia of Religion, has two articles in the "Sacraments" mega-article: "An Overview," and "Christian Sacraments." That being the case, I guess I'm not surprised that Christianity might get the biggest percentage of content. That being the case, I can agree that having a main article on Sacraments in the broader sense is reasonable, with Christian sacraments as a perhaps very important spinout. Hinduism as per that article has 18 sacraments, so it should be possible to make at least a reasonably substantive article there. The other faiths given reasonable coverage in that article are Hellenistic religion, Gnosticism, and Hinduism. It also differentiates between repeatable sacraments and "transitional" sacraments, which could probably be included in articles on rites of passage per the various relevant religions. I do note that source has several articles on that last topic, and reviews have indicated that even more would perhaps have been expected. John Carter (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of this article 

message: I've never heard the term "Ordinance" to describe the Southern Baptists' versions of the Eucharist. Traditionally, we refer to it as "The Lord's Supper", and the actual bread (little wafers) and wine (grape juice) is, collectively, "The Sacraments". Like all Baptists, the Southern Baptist denomination recognizes but two Sacraments: adult baptism and the Eucharist/Lord's Supper. --99.157.108.186 (talk) 16:17, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Southern Baptists Do Not Use "Ordinance" 

message: On 5th October 2016, an anonymous IP proposed merging Sacrament and Ordinance (Christianity) by inserting the appropriate templates at the head of the articles, but failed to open a new section giving reasons for the suggestion.  Since it seems to have aroused no interest for more than 90 days, I intend to remove the templates unless objections are lodged here before the end of January 2017.  For my own part, I would oppose the suggestion mainly on the grounds that the stub Ordinance (Christianity) states there is a clear difference between the meaning of the two terms and the better policy would therefore be to expand the stub rather than mix two different but overlapping concepts in a single article. — Jpacobb (talk) 19:34, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any objections, I have removed the templates. — Jpacobb (talk) 18:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest merge templates 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Sacrament. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050406112938/http://www.lasvegasorthodox.com/library/Orthodox_Practices/The_Sacraments.htm to http://www.lasvegasorthodox.com/library/Orthodox_Practices/The_Sacraments.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120121113340/http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt to http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/graebneral/soteriology.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091013224121/http://www.tjc.org/catLanding.aspx?tab=follow&catno=follow06 to http://www.tjc.org/catLanding.aspx?tab=follow&catno=follow06
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I tried adding the below but was told by the bot that it was unacceptable as it linked to a blog. The blog is directly quoting a secondary source, and I only mention it in order to be accurate in my own source.  Anyone suggest a way forward? Thanks. Eteb3 (talk) 14:16, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding ref from a blog