Talk:Joh Bjelke-Petersen/Archive 1

message: Was he born in Waipukurau? Most Who's Who entire give his place of birth as Dannevirke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.55.44 (talk) 14:55, 28 June 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Place of birth 

message: This is a topic which could probably benefit from an article all its own. The system of giving rural areas more electorates than the number of voters would indicate was actually a scandal of the previous long-serving Labor administration. In the 1956 election, the ALP won its seats with an average of 7000 votes each, against 9900 for the Country Party and a massive 23800 for the Liberals. The greatest disparity was between the seats of Mount Gravatt with 26307 voters and Charters Towers with 4367.
In 1972, the Country Party reaped the benefit of the same system, with CP seats won with 7000 votes, Liberal with 9600, and Labor 12800. The biggest difference was between Pine Rivers with 16758 voters and Gregory with 6273. (of course, given the continued expansion of the Brisbane metropolitan area, these large figures for Mount Gravatt in 1956 and Pine Rivers in 1972 are reflective of the suburban sprawl moving into previously rural areas before new and fairer boundaries cound be drawn up. Nevertheless, the disparity is there.)
The situation in 1972 of Joh governing on a 20% vote is bizarre but true. Typically the Country Party would win seats with a small margin, while the Liberals and especially the Labor Party would win their fewer seats with greater margins, reflecting the fact that Liberal and Labor voters tended to live in identifiable "clumps". The ALP was also hamstrung by the many DLP voters who put the Coalition ahead of Labor, so there was 7.7% of the vote that flowed away from the ALP.
Having said that, even if in 1972 the seats had been determined by a proportional representation system, the results would have been ALP 39, L/CP 36, DLP 5 and Independents two, presumably resulting in a Liberal Premier governing with the support of the DLP.
All of these figures are readily available from historical sources, but it must be said that Hugh Lunn's excellent biography of Joh is by far the best and fairest (and most colourful) source. He devotes a whole chapter to the Bjelkemander. In contrast, the "official" biography produced at the height of Joh's powers and sold in huge numbers to supporters, is a load of steaming tripe with barely the slightest blush of criticism of The Great Man. I don't think it mentions Patrick Field at all! It certainly doesn't mention the fifteen years Joh spent living alone in a cow bail, something that affords Lunn (and his readers) endless pleasure. Skyring 21:27, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bjelkemander

message: Is it worth mentioning the miniseries Joh's Jury, based on the court case?.--DooMDrat 09:02, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
I think it should probably appear in a "references" section. Slac speak up! 09:13, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any real info on the series, unfortunately.--DooMDrat 10:02, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
----
There is absolutely no doubt that (a) Bjelke-Petersen was thoroughly corrupt (b) that he would have been convicted had it not been for the corruption of the jury and (c) that he would have been convicted had there been a second trial. I am not going to try to edit the article accordingly because I detest Bjelke-Petersen so much I cannot be objective, but someone should try to convey these facts in an encyclopaedic manner. Adam 03:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: All we need do is find the right person to quote.  I know Ross Fitzgerald had rather a good piece on the ABC Website, and Quentin Dempster as well.  So long as we're just relaying the comments of others, there should be no problem. Slac speak up! 03:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Post death discussion

message: There's no doubt that Joh was about as paternalistic towards Aboriginal Australians as you could get, but I think that if we're going to state his reasons for blocking the land sale, we need a definitive source, not speculation. Nor were protest marches in the 1970s and 80s conducted peacefully. There was a lot of violence and while the Queensland cops were often unprincipled thugs, the protest leaders were certainly no angels. I speak as a university student in Queensland during those years. The "permit" system as written in the article made it sound like people couldn't walk about in groups of more than three and there was certainly more to it than that. It was quite legal to mount a protest march along the footpath, for instance, without even applying for a permit. Pete 06:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll change it to a direct quote and add a source, it's mentioned in the text of Koowarta v Bjelke-Petersen (). It was a cabinet memo from December 1972, Gibbs CJ quotes from it in his judgement: "The Queensland Government does not view favourably proposals to acquire large areas of additional freehold or leasehold land for development by Aborigines or Aboriginal groups in isolation." --bainer (talk) 07:06, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Good quote. Well done. Pete 07:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I came across it when I was writing the article on the case, I should have put it in straight away but it was a little unwieldy. --bainer (talk) 07:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aboriginal Australians 

message: The word "nominal" does not apply that Field's membership of the ALP was  invalid. It merely expresses the facts of the situation: he fulfilled the technical membership requirements of the ALP while exhibiting totally opposing loyalties. The whole point of ALP membership is to support party policy and candidates; Field did neither publicly. He was totally obscure before Bjelke-Petersen brought him up and had no support from within the party organisation. Futhermore, as far as I'm aware, running or being named as a political candidate claiming ALP affiliation while not having been endorsed is grounds for expulsion. To describe him simply as an "ALP member" gives rise to a reasonable but inaccurate assumption that he was a person who followed party rules and supported party candidates (and in turn had at least some level of organisational support). To be honest, I don't see why describing him as "nominal" is a problem. Slac speak up! 07:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That at very least is a matter of dispute. The article cannot endorse that perspective.  The suggestion that Joh didn't break convention in making this appointment I have never encountered outside of this talk page . . . the ALP may have itself also broken convention, but that doesn't mean Joh didn't. Slac speak up! 23:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Joh wanted to ignore the convention he could have appointed a Country Party member. But he didn't do that; he asked the ALP for a short list from which he would pick one.  That's not ignoring the convention.  Remember, a convention is not a law, it's just a custom that has been observed for some time.  It's not written, so the details can be vague.  Was it the custom that parliament had to accept the party's nominee, no matter who it was?  Who's to say?  Was there ever a previous occasion on which a party presented a premier with a nominee who was unacceptable to him, and wouldn't negotiate?  Zsero 05:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Field's ALP membership

message: I have added POV and Unreferenced flags to this page because there is a distinct lack of referencing, regardless of whether or not the prose is factually correct. For an article of this length, two references is simply appalling.
: May I ask why you have added the  tag? The  tag speaks for itself, but we cannot know what POV problems you have with the article unless you can explain them for us. --bainer (talk) 13:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Poor Referencing

message: I take issue with this statement: "but it in fact was a more democratic refinement of a system that was introduced by the Labor Party in 1949". Although the Bjelkemander article claims that the system previously set up by the Labor Party was undemocratic, calling Bjelke-Petersen's new system "more democratic" is stretching it a bit far. No-one but the most one eyed Joh fans would call him or his government "democratic"; the Bjelkemander page shows that he became premier in 1972 despite having the smallest percentage of votes of the three main parties. I would argue that the previous system set up by the ALP was undemocratic, but calling the replacement system "more democratic" is misleading POV. WepV 07:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: I'd like to put a pronuncation key in for Joh's rather unusual name. The two ways I remember it pronounced were "B'yok-ya" and "B'yok-ee". By the way I hate using IPA coz it's stupid and indecipherable to anyone without a degree in linguistics. --Jquarry 22:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Without a degree? Not at all. Dictionaries everywhere use IPA, and they wouldn't if people couldn't read it. IPA (under which the "correct" pronunciation of his name in English (it's a Danish name) is , is no less comprehensible than the ad hoc pronunciation guides that some dictionaries and reference works attempt to make things "easier" for laypeople, despite the fact that such guides are all but useless for non-native speakers. Slac speak up! 00:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Now come on Slac, your very example proves my point. I don't know anyone who can decipher that IPA string. Even when you goto the page with the IPA pronunciation key, all it gives you is "conversions" of each symbol into known English sounds! So what's the use of that? As for "ad-hoc" guides for non-native speakers, well there's so much regional variation of the same word (eg. tomay-to/tomah-to) that IPA serves no better. Sorry I'm getting off-topic.... but Slac I can see your point with non-English phonemes, and other furfies, and I don't mind so much if an IPA guide is included, but I believe an "ad-hoc" guide is far more preferable and useful. Anyway that's a discussion for another time&place... --Jquarry 09:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Woops! I got so sidetracked I forgot what I was talking about... yes that's right, I remember Sir Joh's name pronounced (in NSW where I lived at the time) as I mentioned above. Added with Adam's and Slac's (probably correct in the original Danish) pronunciations, there's *alot* of variation which you would expect with such an English-unfriendly group of letters. Nevertheless I'll collect them all into the article. --Jquarry 09:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Adam i remember when this last came up - mine and User:jtdirl's protests that IPA was about as good as Aramaic for most readers were shot down by others - lead by a linguistics scholar i should add. PMA 11:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Adam, so was I.... I gotta admit "B'yok'ya" is how I always remember hearing it said, and I always thought it weird... up until yesterday when my better-half set me straight. In my defence this was probably in part due to the Aussie habit of saying their middle L's weakly and mangling vowels, so that "B'yel'kee" can sound like anything from "B'yek'ee" to "B'yok'ya". (Compare with how we say million as "mew-yun" or even "mee-yun". Eech.) Long story short I won't include my idiot pronunciation in the article. --Jquarry 06:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: The addition is nothing more than a vexatious, politically-driven addition. It has nothing to do with Joh's life, and is only there to defame him. In addition, no reference is provided, and material that is not cited is subject to immediate deletion if its authenticity is questioned. I will remove the line in 24 hours. michael talk 05:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the libel/political comments, but the fact seems to be true, and is related to his life. So I do not think we should remove it completely. It would still be fair to add a sentence stating that the band was criticising Petersen for his policies. Rimmeraj 08:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hate seeing Wikipedia articles degenerate into shitheaps of what this person/groups views are on particular issues. Never mind there is no references; all of the political leaders of Australia have endured a degree of lampooning and pop culture stereotypes, but that nonsense is irrelevant to their lives and careers. Adam already had to clean this article up the other day. Why should people who don't even engage in discussion be able to run rampant to no consequence? Bjelke might have been a bible basher, but damn, there's a hell of a lot more Bjelke bashers out there! michael talk 01:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The entry doesn't bash Sir Joh, it merely records the fact that several songs by notable bands did bash him.  That's a notable fact about him, that belongs in any encyclopedia article on him.  If there have been any notable positive depictions of him in popular culture, they should be included too.  Zsero 01:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No they shouldn't. This is about Joh, and his life—not about what a bunch of idiotic bands thought of him. I'd hate to see more Australian articles follow the trend that has seen American political articles degrade terribly, with them being less about what a person has done, and more about what pop-culture thinks of them. These articles aren't about "views", they're about people. michael talk 01:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing like a couple of student activists trying to play funnybuggers and put their views onto a Wikipedia page. Keep it in your idiotic blogs and your petty papers. michael talk 23:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Calm Down. This article is about Joh and his influence on the world, including pop culture.  I someone wrote a song about him it should be included. It is in a seperate section, down the bottom of the article, it is in no danger of dominating the article. You have now had your change reverted more than three times. Please do not revert again. Why are you so keen to censor this information? And please keep the personal attacks out of it. I am not a student. Rimmeraj 23:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Calm down? Far out. Okay, for fairness' sake, we'd better make sure that every single other politician in Australia's history has a '[name] in Popular Culture' section, as it's vitally important to their lives. What a joke. michael talk 23:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I support statements made by Joestella and Rimmeraj. WikiTownsvillian 02:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a big fan of "references in popular culture" sections in Wikipedia in the first place, but come on, these references are really, really lame. Everyone lampooned Joh, why single out those three? One of them an obscure UK band, and another (Redgum) who were a protest band who targetted everyone on the right wing of politics (it would have been more noteworthy if Redgum didn't target Joh). That leaves a Skyhooks song from 1979, way past their peak in popularity. Far more useful to mention the fact that he was regular fare for editorial cartoonists and TV comedians. Rocksong 03:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  All three bands are notable enough to have their own WP entries.  And their work is published in a non-ephemeral form, unlike newspaper cartoons.  But if you have some specific example of a notable cartoon or TV representation, whether positive or negative (surely there must have been some positive depictions, mustn't there?), by all means list them. If the list gets inordinately long, we might have to weed out the less notable ones, but three examples is hardly too many. Zsero 03:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well to me, a reference in a 1970s song which wasn't a hit, struggles to meet the criterion of "References in popular culture". And I think the Redgum reference should definitely be removed because they were a protest group who targetted many people. I agree with Michael that it actually detracts from the article. (That said, I can't be bothered removing it myself unless there's a consensus). Rocksong 03:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Just to distinguish my position from Michael's: my objection is not that the 70s song references are Joh-bashing, but that they are too obscure. Rocksong 04:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you want to claim that they're not notable, why don't you start an AfD for the three groups?  Or at least for the Stranglers album?  Zsero 04:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mean those bands are irrelevant per se. I mean they're too irrelevant to Joh to be in the Joh article. Too many Wikipedia editors seem to think that an encyclopedia article on X needs to include every reference to X in a newspaper/book/song/whatever. I agree with Michael on that: it's the sort of useless information which clutters Wikipedia and actually detracts from it. Rocksong 04:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps not every example needs to be listed, but surely a representative sample should be.  The original entry, whose deletion started this discussion, was just the Stranglers.  That album is notable enough to have its own entry, so surely the song is notable enough to be mentioned here, as a representative of the class if as nothing else. Zsero 05:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point, but I still think The Stanglers are pretty obscure - either they were much bigger than they were in Oz, or they've got a dedicated fan on Wikipedia. But whatever. I've given my opinion and I'll let the consensus decide. Rocksong 11:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joh album 

message: User:Skyring says '"Popular culture" sections are frowned upon'.  I'd like to know, frowned on by whom?  What's your evidence that anyone besides you frowns on them, and in any case why should I care?  Zsero 23:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're discouraged in the guideline Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles. I've already argued against the popular culture in the section #Joh album above (when I went by the name Rocksong) - when a very well known figure is mentioned in a song by a not-so-well-known band, that's not notable, in my opinion. Peter Ballard 00:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is a co-operative effort and we should all care about guidelines and principles generated by consensus. Of course WP:IAR provides an outlet if there is a good reason to ignore a rule, but in this case, no. If Joh had launched legal action or given speeches denouncing the songs, then they might be worthy of inclusion. --Pete 00:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Concur with the above opinions. Pop culture and trivia sections generally contribute nothing to an article, particularly one where politics is involved. As it is, two unknown bands making a quick buck by criticising a well-known figure of the day certainly doesn't rate a mention in the article. Also Zsero, the reason you should care is because Wikipedia is run on the basis of group consensus in editing. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean the rest of the editors share it. 82.69.28.164 14:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Pop culture sections are a great linking tool for articles, and help with fitting an individual into the pop culture of the time (ie gauging popularity/notoriety). That said, I doubt there is much cause for one in this case. Rotovia (talk) 08:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Culture 

message: According to his aunt's bio, ther is no hyphen in the last name.  Ursasapien (talk) 05:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't you worry about that.   Read it again, it doesn't say what you think it does.  -- Zsero 05:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The most reliable sources I can think of are government sites. Googling at .gov.au sites has him (and Flo) nearly unanimously with a hyphen. Including his funeral service  here -- Peter Ballard 05:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This ought to be the definitive proof, if one were ever needed.  But no proof is needed; it has never been suggested, by anybody, that his name had no hyphen.  Even the source Ursasapien relied on actually says the exact opposite.  -- Zsero 05:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not unknown for hyphens to be inconsistent across family members - I use a hyphen in my surname but others in my family don't, to the point that both versions can appear on the same form or someone will assume the spelling is the same for everyone. Timrollpickering 12:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bjelke-Petersen vs. Bjelke Petersen

message: The phrase
Crown Solicitor Conrad Lohe not only recommended dismissing the claim, but said Sir Joh was "fortunate" not to have faced a second trial
appears twice in the section "Joh's Corruption Trial" and seems to take on two meanings. I don't know enough about the context of the article to fix it, at least not right now. --Lightnin Boltz (talk) 07:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundant quote in "Joh's Corruption Trial" 

message: I read in an article in the paper about Petersen's prototype hydrogen/water-powered car. Is there any more info on this that should be included in the article, as it seems pretty revolutionary. 220.245.156.90 (talk) 13:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Water-powered car 

message: Are we to psycho-analyse this comment?
Please leave it as "due to the gerry meander", not "thanks to the gerry meander", for obvious reasons.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.213.7.137 (talk) 11:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it should actually be "due to the malapportionment" as the context is rural voters being disproportionally represented compared to urban ones. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Thanks to the gerry meander"

message: I reverted this article back to the last well cited version after it had been reverted back to nearly 100 edits ago. That older version was almost completely uncited and contained numerous edits that were nothing more then a hate agenda and with completely false and even slanderous statements. I would suggest that other editors discuss the facts here in the discussion area so the article can be properly cited and encyclopedic in nature, The tag placed in November 2007 calls for Unsourced material to be removed, most of which has been done because it was unfactual and unencyclopedic. The edits I have added have all been cited in an effort to make the article encyclopedic in nature. If other editors feel some of those edits are not correct, then post me here and lets discuss it, but reverting to a very old uncited version that smacks of hate, inuendo, uncited claims, etc is completely unencyclopedicVivaldi27 (talk) 16:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The edits I reversed last night, after consulting with other editors and asking a checkuser to investigate a perceived link to another editor who has been indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia for blatant disruption, were anything but neutral. The article is pretty bad as it is, but it is factual, and some of the edits introduced blatant errors (eg the 89 seat business) or removed valid content (eg the Koowarta case). Getting rid of bits one doesn't like and trying to interpret anything bad or questionable only in the best light possible is not in the spirit of WP:NPOV. If you have specific concerns, let's discuss them here. Orderinchaos 17:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not forcing page ownership of any kind - in fact, looking at the history will demonstrate I had never once edited this article prior to last night, and it wasn't even on my watchlist. However, when I see almost 100 edits from a user that has edited almost no other articles, that seem to be pushing a particular line or agenda, just after we've uncovered an indef-blocked editor operating under numerous socks in similar areas, and when the checkuser comes back "Possible to Likely" that the editing account and the banned account are the same person (white still short of Confirmed), I get somewhat edgy about it. With that many edits it is impossible to genuinely review, and I reviewed enough to convince me there were some very, very serious issues with the edits being made. I don't doubt some of the edits did improve it, but it's impossible to know and too much of a risk to take - edits can always be reinstated on review. Yes, there is some dodgy stuff in the article. But the way to fix that is not to make it a shrine to the bloke. I have fought wanton deification and demonisation on Labor, Liberal, Green and now National articles, and my only goal in doing so is to assist Wikipedia in becoming a reliable source on Australian politics. Orderinchaos 18:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Like I said, the checkuser which came back allowed for considerable ambiguity, if I was confident you were a banned user, I would not be discussing with you. I was explaining my reasoning above. Orderinchaos 03:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Two things which were removed were the Koowarta case and the fact the jury foreman was an active National member. Both of those were significant to the story, the former is actually one of the cases any law professor would cite as one of the most important constitutional cases in this country alongside Engineers, Tasmanian Dams, Uniform Taxation cases etc. I'm happy to consider reviewing the content, as I agree the article has its issues, but I intend on using an academic source as the basis. Orderinchaos 03:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: reverting to last well cited version

message: Ok, for example, the following is uncited, and unless it can be cited and valid reason why it should be there it should be removed, (using a tax deduction then allowable to primary producers}, because claiming that one has a tax deduction wen they may not have is unencyclopedic.Vivaldi27 (talk) 18:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: suggested removal

message: I removed the following edit because it is uncited and no proof of this, also, is it really relevent and encyclopedic....(using a tax deduction then allowable to primary producers)
(using a tax deduction then allowable to primary producers)Vivaldi27 (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct, it makes no difference whether it was the case or not, is not cited and carries an imputation. Orderinchaos 08:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove tax deduction Edit

message: I added a simple edit on his memoirs that fits in well with the article, is encyclopedic and citedVivaldi27 (talk) 23:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bjelke-Petersen's memoirs

message: I should also like to remind everyone about wikipedia policy here.
"Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space"Vivaldi27 (talk) 23:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Although note there is considerable debate about the role of BLP alongside other policies. No policy is absolute and competing considerations apply - take for example this user warning template which treats removing content in certain circumstances as a blockable offence, and our NPOV policy which says balance must be maintained. It's always better to raise things for discussion on the talk page (i.e. here) so that people may discuss it. Uncontroversial things like the tax deduction one you found are okay to simply remove, but be aware your definition of uncontroversial and someone else's may vary. Orderinchaos 08:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the text, it may be more suitable to a new article on the incident - although is likely out of place in a biography on Joh - to put in context, it was something that happened during his term as Premier and was authorised by his Government but may or may not have had anything to do with him personally (in fact, most of that paragraph on development should probably be in a separate article itself, on Bjelke-Petersen Government, much as we have done with Howard. What year did the incident occur btw? Orderinchaos 07:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Agreed, both seem entirely reasonable additions/edits. Orderinchaos 18:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia Policy on Biographies

message: Ive corrected the reasons why the pergury trial was not retried as per the citation. The original edit in fact referred to Johs suing the State Government some ten plus years later, interesting to also note that the citation did not even say wat the person had posted and suggest an effort is made to review all the citations here.
The pergury trial was not retried due to Johs age as per the citation.Vivaldi27 (talk) 17:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pergury Trial Correction

message: Approval for demolitions are given by the city council, not the state government, from wat I can tell, it seems the dean bros demolished it illegally, if so, this is a city council issue which at the time was a Labour Governed City Council. It is furthermore to note, that the council seemed to support the demolition by giving quick approval to the devolopment of Units on the site. It was up to the council to stop the demolition and take action on this. The architectural atrocity that replaced Cloudland can be seen on the Brisbane City Council website. "In what they laughably refer to as "urban renewal", BCC winked at the illegal demolition and rubber-stamped the redevelopment of the site of Australia's finest Art Deco ballroom, which replaced by a $20 million, 125-unit private apartment complex of surpassing ugliness."http://www.milesago.com/venues/cloudland.htm 
The Brisbane City Council issued the Deen Brothers with a meagre $125 fine for illegal demolition.
The Brisbane City Council also prevented signatures being collected after the demolition of Cloudland calling for immediate heritage protection legislation — a Bill that, in 1982, had been promised for seven years by the City Council.http://www.dotlit.qut.edu.au/200302/cloudland3.html
As such, what has any of this got to do with johs biography? From wat I can see, None. This is a city council issue and at best should be shifted to the article on the relevent Lord Mayor of the time.Vivaldi27 (talk) 19:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cloudland

message: I added a small addition about johs business interests in Tasmania and a mention about paying off debts resulting from the pergury trial with citationVivaldi27 (talk) 16:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Later Life

message: I added a reference to confirm the date he became premierVivaldi27 (talk) 16:56, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference

message: I added an edit about how after being premier, Joh continued to teach Sunday School, I feel this was important as during that time, for some absurd reason, the opposition made such a big stink about in parlament.Vivaldi27 (talk) 16:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sunday School Teacher

message: I add a few verification tags that are needed there as well as a small edit about who won the seat with a reference to that. I would like to see if we can get some verification about the two sentences where I added the tags, but if we cant find anything notable both sentences will eventually have to be removed.Vivaldi27 (talk) 16:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All I could find in P.C. was this: "On this occasion Sir Joh’s role was more oblique: he did not appear to endorse any candidate, although he was somewhat supportive of Nationals’ candidate and local shire chairman Warren Truss while at the same time sympathising with the views of Trevor Perre& the Independent candidate representing the conservative-oriented Citizens Electoral Council (CEC)." (Interesting that Truss was the Nationals candidate - I didn't know that!) Orderinchaos 19:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Election for Johs Seat

message: I added a small edit about the letter bomb incidentVivaldi27 (talk) 16:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, it got a short section in Political Chronicle: "A most unfortunate and deplorable incident during the election campaign was the posting of a letter bomb to the premier. The device exploded in the mail room of the Executive Building and seriously injured two public servants. It was a cowardly action that was roundly condemned by all political parties. At the time of writing no charges have been laid in relation to the incident." If that text is of any use in improving it, I'll provide the full citation for it. Orderinchaos 19:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Letter Bomb

message: added a small edit with reference, Bjelke-Petersen became one of Nicklin's cabinet ministers in 1963 as minister for works and housingVivaldi27 (talk) 14:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Housing Minister

message: Ive placed some verification tags on some stuff in the resignation section as my research shows most of the current edits to be incorrect. But lets see what we can all come up with there in the way of referenced material Vivaldi27 (talk) 16:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Verification tags Resignation

message: Suggest the new following Heading on dispute, "Events Leading To Resignation".Vivaldi27 (talk) 16:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: compromise suggestion on Resignation

message: I added the following resignation statement from Joh, Its important for that section of the article, and I remember at the time that this is what was being constantly broadcast on the TV news at the time.
"The policies of the National Party are no longer those on which I went to the people. Therefor I have no wish to lead the Government any longer. It was my intention to take this matter to the floor of State Parliament. However, I now have no further interest in leading the National Party any further."Vivaldi27 (talk) 17:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Added resignation Statement

message: Huh? when was he ever Premier? not corect, the only way he could be Premier was if he was sworn in by the Governer which never happened. After the death of Prizzy, Gorden attempted to be Premier and even went to the Governer, but never had the numbers. 
The Governer contacted Joh and asked if he would form government with Gorden as Premier, but Joh stated he would not.
In the end Joh was sworn in as Premier. Gordon was never Premier.Vivaldi27 (talk) 17:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Would seem correct. The fact Political Chronicle makes *no* mention of Chalk in the relevant section and implies a direct suggestion would agree with this assertion. "The premier of Queensland, Mr Jack Pizzey, died at his home of a heart attack at the age of fifty-seven, after having held office for barely six months. He was succeeded by another country party politician, Mr Johannes Bjelke-Petersen, the minister for works, housing, island and native affairs and police." While it means little, I can only find two references which suggest he was an *acting* premier, as you'd expect a deputy to be from time to time, but as with any role, a person acting in a role does not leave their assigned role. For instance, we would not refer to "former Prime Minister Julia Gillard" because she is acting Prime Minister when Rudd is out of the country. Orderinchaos 18:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid you're both very much mistaken.  This page from the Queensland Parliament's web site says he was premier.  Gordon Chalk says he was premier.  Premiers of Queensland says he was premier.  I was living in Queensland at the time, and I can also assure you he was sworn in as premier.  He's often overlooked in places like Political Chronicle, in the same way that Frank Forde and John McEwen are often overlooked as prime ministers.  The fact that they were installed on a caretaker basis while the main party was sorting out its new leader, does not mean that they were merely acting.  They were all sworn in by the governor/governor-general as the office-holder; a person who acts for the office-holder is not sworn in to that portfolio.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, thanks for the clarification (and oops!). Yeah that site clearly says: "In August 1968, Gordon Chalk served as Premier of Queensland for eight days. Chalk became Premier after the sudden and unexpected death of the then Premier Jack Pizzey on 1 August 1968, and before the Country Party elected Joh Bjelke-Petersen as Premier on 8 August 1968. He holds the record for having the second shortest term as Premier." It's an official publication, so I'd take that over and above even an academic source. Orderinchaos 23:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

text: mmm, most certainly the reference is Authoritive so we will go with that. But Im still going to get in contact with thyem on this for some more clarificationVivaldi27 (talk) 18:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Gordon Chalk As Premier?

message: I removed Gores comments on unemployed as it has nothing to do with johs biography. It may be better suited in a biography on Gore, but not here.Vivaldi27 (talk) 18:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not reflecting on your other comments, but I sense a Godwin's Law violation here... :) Orderinchaos 00:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Gores Comments on Unemployed

message: "The lack of a state upper house (since its abolition in 1922) allowed executive decisions to be swiftly implemented, yet also meant there were no "checks and balances" applied to the decisions of the lower house."
Ok, now this is in the article, but should be removed.
First, it was abolished by the Labour party in 1922, before Joh was ever a member of parliament.
Now, although the system continued while he was in government, he inherited this from previous governments.
Also, the system is still in place in Queensland currently.
It really has no relevence to a biography on Joh, and if it is to be included in this article then Im going to add the edit to all biographies of all Premiers of Queensland since 1922 to make it fair and balanced.
Really, this edit really belongs in an article on the Westminster system in Australia.Vivaldi27 (talk) 19:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is there more by way of explanation I think as to why decisions his government made could be carried without opposition - it's an unusual situation in Australia. In articles I have written on other topics and gotten to featured article or good article status, there has been significant repetition with other articles in the same class, and as long as it's only in summary form, that's fine. The wording as you say does need work to avoid WP:WEASEL issues - the fact it was abolished by a Labor government and the fact it still is the case today are both important facts which have been left out. Orderinchaos 22:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any mention of it in the Peter Beattie article, for example. While I'm sure it's true, what is needed is a WP:Reliable Source attributing Joh's style, or the political situation, to the lack of an upper house. Otherwise it's just editorialising and needs to go. Peter Ballard (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Also, is the statement "The lack of a state upper house ... allowed executive decisions to be swiftly implemented" even correct? The lack of an upper house allows legislation to be passed without having to negotiate with the other parties, but how does it help executive decisions? I don't think parliament can impede lawful executive decisions anyway. (e.g. I'm pretty sure I've heard of governments making executive decisions as a means of avoiding the need for negotiating over legislation.) Peter Ballard (talk) 01:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Upper House

message: I did a bit of updating on this section and included some references there as well to supportVivaldi27 (talk) 17:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Break-up of the coalition

message: Did a slight rewrite of the uncited version of this section, and added a few references to support what took place.Vivaldi27 (talk) 16:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Joh for Canberra

message: Added a small section mentioning the rapid decline of the Nationals after Joh, that they lost the next election and in 2008 were forced to join a merger with the Liberals.Vivaldi27 (talk) 16:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't really see how this had anything to do with Joh's article. The Nationals got a similar percentage of the vote in 2006 to what they were getting in many of the elections Joh won, the result in 1989, essentially a protest vote over Fitzgerald, was entirely to be expected - exactly the same thing happened in 1992 in Victoria and 1993 in WA and SA to Labor governments who had been accused of corruption, but we don't talk about the decline of Labor in those states. The final issue is the LNP one - in any other state Nationals becoming part of the Liberals would suggest a decline in the Nationals' fortunes, but in the peculiar case of Queensland it's seen by many commentators as the Nationals strengthening their position by effectively taking over the state's Liberal Party. So I think we need to be really careful about WP:OR here in asserting that either the Nationals went into decline, or that if they did, it was due directly to some factor or other (Joh not being leader, etc.) Orderinchaos 03:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. You need a source (e.g. a respected political commentator) attributing their post-1989 decline to Joh (or lack of Joh). Inferring it from the raw data is WP:OR. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair Enough, Ill go along with that. Although It cant be added here, I probably just added it based more on my own personal experience at the time that people stoped voting National at the  election because of the way they had treated Joh, thats wat I kept hearing. I never heard any national party voters turn agianst the party over the Fitzgerald enquiry.203.63.147.154 (talk) 16:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

text: That's cool. It happens. :) Orderinchaos 00:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Decline of Nationals After Joh

message: Removed the following from the article, "Cheryl Buchanan, chairwoman of the Kooma Traditional Owners Association said it was difficult now for people to accept how different things were in Queensland for Aboriginal people in the 1960s and 1970s. "We got raped by police in those days and couldn't do anything about it. They were the SS. The police would pick us up on a regular basis because they knew who we all were, and they'd take us out the back of Samford and harass us and push us around for hours", Buchanan said.
Aboriginal activist Sam Watson said: "Aboriginal people will always remember him [Bjelke-Petersen] as a racist, a thug and a dictator."
Now, there are extensive numerous problems with this, First,  they are quotes from political activists, second, the statement from Buchannen refers to problems with the police, no relevence to this biography.
Now, the statement is totally unsupported, If there was mass rapes of aboriginal police going on, this matter would have been reported by other news sources, it would these days be the subject of a royal commision, claims for compensdation, etc. Fact is, there has been no such supporting evidence to such allegations and im not even aware of any formal complaints. If there were mass rapes of people this matter would have been a national outcry. Such a statement is going to need a lot of supporting evidence from reliable sources before and there is going to need to be shown in the article a direct connection where to Joh.Vivaldi27 (talk) 17:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree purely on the basis that assuming that it did occur (and I don't think it would be that difficult to prove - there are several reliable sources indicating such incidents at the hands of police and other officials all around Australia - eg the Bringing Them Home report), for it to be in this biography, either Joh would need to have been ordering it, or speaking extensively on it or otherwise personally involved, and likewise that it was either some radical departure from the past or otherwise connected with his time in office. I don't think that can be established on any safe ground. An example of the sort of thing that could be included - we had a rather odd incident in Western Australia in the 70s involving a mining lease over an Aboriginal reserve which became hugely controversial (and in the end never went ahead). The premier of the day was very active in the debate, taking a strong personal stand on it, and even his lawn suffered for the privilege (someone drilled holes in it). Orderinchaos 17:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Can "Joh's decision to deny the inquiry" and any controversy surrounding it be linked to any reliable source? By reliable source we're looking at preferably published / peer-reviewed texts, or newspaper articles/investigative pieces by mainstream media. I know it limits the field somewhat, but the rules on Wikipedia are pretty strict on this one. I don't doubt it probably did take place, but we've got to be careful what we add and how (i.e. it can't be based on opinion or someone's say-so). If you are aware of a month and year I can look it up on Political Chronicle as well. Orderinchaos 12:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Political activists and unrtelaible sourcing