Talk:Llywelyn ap Gruffudd

message: "(some would say he was the penultimate, but in effect he was the last ruler)"
Is this relevant/ prudent to an introduction?
The Krunk 17:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No; it's gone now. Gareth 18:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Parenthetical

message: I'm pretty sure that James III would have been surprised by the claim that Henry VII was king of all Britain.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.53.171 (talk) 21:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Henry VII

message: The Welsh version says: "Heddiw, mae yna Gwobr Goffa'r Tywysog Llywelyn ap Gruddydd Prifysgol Cymru i'r traethawd gorau ar gyfer y radd o MPhil neu PhD."  What does this mean?
:"These days, there's a prize in memory of Prince Llywelyn ap Gruddydd at the University of Wales for the best dissertation at MPhil or PhD level." Marnanel 21:27, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation 

message: I've moved this back from Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf ap Gruffydd, after Seancdaug moved it there, in accordance with the Manual of Style. — OwenBlacker 11:36, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
:I think that was the right thing to do. Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is either known as Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (note the spelling of Gruffudd which you will find in all modern secondary sources) or Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf or Llywelyn the Last. I think the English form is acceptable. Seancdaug's form of Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf ap Gruffydd is not one I have seen before. — Lyndafis 15:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page name 

message: According to the Wiki standard for articles on rulers, I would have thought that something like Llywelyn III of Gwynedd or Llywelyn II of Wales would be more appropriate for this article. Siswrn 21:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very rarely that you see forms like 'Llywelyn II' for Welsh monarchs; they are almost always distinguished by a description (e.g. Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf, Rhodri Fawr, Hywel Dda) or by lineage (e.g. Llywelyn ap Gruffudd). Gareth 10:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've never seen the form Llywelyn II etc used to refer to welsh monarchs, common usage or not Tswsl1989 07:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regnal number 

message: Llywellyn & his wife (Queen?) were known as the Lord & Lady of Snowdon.  By whom?  I'm assuming at this time the mountain was largely referred to by its Welsh/ Britonic name 'yr Wyddfa'?
Snowdon being a Saxon name for the mountain.
C Williams - Llantrisant 217.134.255.99 (talk) 00:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lord & Lady of Snowdon

message: There are several assertions that seem a little POV, or at least are written in somewhat of a loose style: "Edward took particular delight in ...", "With equal deliberateness ...", "the most precious religious relic in Gwynedd ...", "Edward was thereby appropriating the historical and religious regalia of the house of Gwynedd and placarding to the world the extinction of its dynasty and the annexation of the principality to his Crown." (certainly not NPOV, very loose, also "placarding" seems overly trite and probably not true, certainly not "extinction of its dynasty" the next para mentions Rhodri for example).
"ended their lives in captivity" sounds like they all committed suicide, assuming that not to be the case perhaps "remained imprisoned until their deaths", some citations are needed on who the relatives are and where they were held captive if this assertion is to remain. The following para goes on to mention all the relatives (apart from Dafydds sons) who remained free and the manner of their deaths (not in captivity) so this seems internally contradictory.
That last sentence is weasely, two uses of "may".   Pbhj (talk) 00:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Annexation 

message: A minor point, but surely needs correcting on the 1247 divisions Map is 'Yr Perfeddwlad'. This should read 'Y Berfeddwlad'. See: http://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Berfeddwlad
Llywelyn2000 (talk) 22:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Y Berfeddwlad 

message: The article gives Llywelyn's mother as Senena ferch Rhodri, but Sir John Wynn's History of the Gwydir family names her as the daughter of Caradog ap Thomas. Anyone got any ideas?
It is interesting to conclude that he was trying to escape when he left the tower through the window.
This is probably just a lie, implying that he was incompetent or an idiot.
In reality, he jumped to his death, so that Wales would not have an imprisoned leader, and so another leader could take his place.
Most English kings would not have the patriotism to kill themselves for the good of the nation.
It is disappointing to hear lies about the dead.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.182.165.34 (talk) 17:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mother of Llywelyn 

message: User:Iamamazing77 yesterday moved the page from Llywelyn the Last to Llywelyn ap Gruffyd, but an admin., at my request, has moved it back to Llywelyn the Last. The reason is per WP:COMMONNAME, Google Books search shows that Llywelyn the Last is more common than Llywelyn ap Gruffyd. DeCausa (talk) 09:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: May I present new evidence? It is noted above that “Llywelyn the Last” had the most mentions on a Google Book search, which showed that the current page name was correct as a WP:COMMONNAME. That conclusion is mistaken</S> does not include the most common spelling. “Llywelyn the last" gives 24,100 results. While it is true that this is many more references than "Llywelyn ap Gruffydd" (at 7,380) - or the mis-spelt "Llywelyn ap Gruffyd" (at 194 results) - a more common spelling of his name is Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, which produces "64,300 results". I also contend that books using Llywelyn ap Gruffudd are on the more academic side than other spellings, and note that his Encyclopaedia of Wales entry is under Llywelyn ap Gruffudd too. I propose, therefore, that this page be renamed Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. Any objections? Daicaregos (talk) 18:48, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

text: My apologies. No offence was intended. I have no doubt the comparison was made in good faith and struck that phrase above. Daicaregos (talk) 12:30, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

text: Daicaregos (talk) 12:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Please lets reach a consensus. Lloyd in History of Wales uses Gruffydd, for Gruffydd ap Cynan and Gruffydd ap Llywelyn. Davies in history of Wales uses both Gruffydd for Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, and Gruffudd for Gruffudd ap Cynan. I encountered the name via Lloyd and favor Gruffydd myself, but defer to consensus. ♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 00:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

text: Had we not, in the discussion above? Llywelyn ap Gruffudd seems to be the WP:COMMONNAME now, by a long way. John Davies uses Gruffudd in A History of Wales, rather than Gruffydd. Lloyd published his History of Wales in 1911. He did use Gruffydd, but contemporary historians tend to use Gruffudd e.g. John Koch, Beverley Smith, R R Davies and Gwynfor Evans. 100 Welsh Heroes uses Gruffudd , as does the definitive source, the Welsh Academy's Encyclopaedia of Wales (p 517). Daicaregos (talk) 08:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name/page move 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I read the discussions "Page name" (2004) and "Article name/page move" (20013-2014). Based on the comments it seems Llywelyn ap Gruffudd is the most common name for the king. Daicaregos mentioned that "contemporary historians tend to use Gruffudd" which include John Koch, Beverley Smith, R. R. Davies and Gwynfor Evans. However, this article starts with "Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (c. 1223 – 11 December 1282), sometimes written as Llywelyn ap Gruffudd" and it's entitled Llywelyn ap Gruffudd so that doesn't make any sense to me. If Gruffudd is the standard then the introduction in the text should reverse the names and say  "Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (c. 1223 – 11 December 1282), sometimes written as Llywelyn ap Gruffydd".
ICE77 (talk) 05:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The Encylopedia of Wales entry is "Llwelyn ap Gruffudd" so I suggest we adopt your proposal -----Snowded TALK 08:54, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common name in introduction 

message: As there is no discussion here that indicates the current infobox image choice represents a group consensus, I have been bold and replaced it, moving the one that was there farther down the article.  My reasoning is two-fold. First, the image itself is not the best representation of the statue - the angle from which the photo is taken gives an odd view looking up the man's nose, and the angled backlighting causes some unnatural shadow-and-light effects that highlight his knee and the back of his neck, while making the head at the bottom look like the Star Trek characters with their faces half-white and half-black. Second, there has been a longstanding preference on historical pages to use contemporary or near-contemporary representations in the infobox, while putting modern depictions farther down the article (see William the Conqueror, Alfred the Great & Urraca of León as just three of many examples), unless none exists or the modern representation is particularly iconic, neither of which is the case in this instance. Agricolae (talk) 19:08, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox image 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The info box and table have him as prince from 1246 but this date doesn't seem to be mentioned in the text (there's a citation, 7). The introductory text instead uses 1258, which seems to be about his use of the term? It seems like 1246 should be mentioned somewhere, possibly replacing 1258 in the intro, but I know nothing of the topic. Tomcrocker (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Tomcrocker well, supposing whoever put the date of 1246, the thought process must have been that Llywelyn was the lineal successor to Dafydd ap Llywelyn, and he died that year. But yes, officially in the history books, Llywelyn II was confirmed as Prince of Wales by the English monarchy in 1258. So, the question is, was his title heredity from his uncle, or simply a appointed by the King of England...? Cltjames (talk) 03:11, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it wasn't hereditary. He was prince of Wales from 1258. He was a prince of Gwynedd from 1246. The infobox is confusing, and the lead insufficient. We also have nothing in the lead about Owain, or how Llywelyn defeated him and seized his share in 1255. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: And now I have edited it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sirfurboy Ok, thanks for the edit. However, you left out the Prince of Wales title in the infobox. Then, in the succession box at the bottom of the article, it still states he was Prince of Wales from 1246. Cltjames (talk) 01:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I left out succession of prince of Wales in the infobox because there is no succession of the title. Dafydd ap Llywelyn claimed the title, yes. However it wasn't recognised by England and Llywelyn had to win it, after first winning back sole control of Gwynedd in 1255. It makes no sense to put it under the succession parameter in the infobox. This is something that needs prose narrative to explain. As for that box at the bottom of the page, I think we should just remove that. It is not very visible, and again is just confusing. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sirfurboy the thing is, you say it wasn't recognised, however there is evidence that Llywelyn II was recognised as Prince of Wales by 1267. Cltjames (talk) 19:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Dafydd ap Llywelyn's claim was not recognised by Henry III, and the claim was behind Henry's 1245 campaign against him. When he died the following year, his possessions were divided. Llywelyn and Owain shared Gwynedd and everything else was withheld by Henry. There is no sense that there was any succession of the title. It had to be won anew. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reign as Prince of Wales