Talk:Pirates versus Ninjas

message: I think the timeline is superfluous nonsense. Most of the items are of the "this game/book/movie/whatever mentions a pirate, and this other game/book/movie/whatever has a ninja in it" variety. For starters, Talk Like a Pirate Day and Scrubs have nothing to do with the debate.
63.3.0.129 20:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline

message: I don't think this article should be deleted at sight; it's well written and gives valuable information. To me it answered what the hell this strip by Norwegian cartoonist M was all about. Rename, merge or list on AfD as you like, but it shouldn't just be swept under the rug like this. Eixo 22:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this is clearly not patent nonsense, just a unique subcultural in-joke. -- stillnotelf has a talk page 22:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think it should be deleted, but a serious overhaul is needed. Phantombantam 22:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: How is this notable, when Genmay isnt? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.151.72.200 (talk) 23:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text: That is just one forum. This is across the internet, much like the you have two cows joke. Phantombantam 23:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I don't think this article should be deleted at sight

message: I think it would be a really good idea if this article were locked for a day or so. It was linked on digg within the hour. Expect lots of vandalism. 24.124.70.238 09:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lock?

message: Archived discussion of a previous version of this article (this is not a recreation) exists at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pirates Versus Ninjas. The original content is preserved here, here, and here.-- stillnotelf has a talk page 22:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the previous article was a joke, this one is factual. The afd result don't apply. Eixo 22:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I agree, and I would vote keep in a new AFD, I was just collecting links for other users' convenience and amusement. -- stillnotelf has a talk page 23:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Previous deletion

message: I'm not a fan of article deletion...if you've got some bit of info to share with the world, then share it, but this isn't well written, or documented.  It's very hard to chronicle the saga of a pop-culture topic of conversation.  Who were the first two people to debate this?  We will probably never know.  
Rowlan 05:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement of Article

message: Why is it that something like this(considering how stupid it is) gets an article while the pie v cake debate gets none? It doesn't even get a mention in an article about a debate who's outcome depends on who gets the drop on who! BioTube 02:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stupid as it may be, "pie vs cake" returns 107 Google results . "pirates vs ninjas" returns about 154,000 results . Pirates vs Ninjas is a true internet phenomenon--I haven't heard a whole lot about the pie vs cake debate. --authraw 03:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What about Pie Versus Cake?

message: How about placing some historical stuff? Such as when Portuguese Ships (royal, not pirates) first reached Japan Empire (ruled by samurai, not ninjas). (next section is only my opinion in the polemics) Also, pirates and ninjas won't even fight. Ninjas can't get to an high-seas ship to assassinate the pirate, neither can the pirate find the ninja hideout, and even if they (either one) can, is there enough honor (to kill one pirate ship with all that work, sacrificing many valuable ninjas) or loot (to steal from a humble ninja clan hidden so deep in the woods, after spending so much supplies in the search)?
:Ninjas could be hired to assassinate pirates when they port, or pirates could just happen to be around when the ninjas come for someone else, or even, the pirates might have been hired by some crime lord for protection and the ninjas come for the crime lord; many possibilities... --TiagoTiago (talk) 20:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: Is there a counter-part for this???
I couldn't find (I'm not good at searching wikipedian categories). 200.230.213.152 02:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WTF? Where's NPOV?

message: :Shouldn't something be included in this article regarding the popularity of Naruto and One Piece with anime fans? That is, the popularity of Ninjas (Naruto) in America contrasting the popularity of Pirates (One Piece) in Japan? Terek 07:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is spillover of "pirates vs ninjas" into the fandom of both series, and least in America. I can personally attest to that. However, for inclusion into this article we'd need reliable sources, and for some odd reason Wikipedia doesn't recognize how reliable my word is. :P Redxiv 08:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Naruto & One Piece

message: This page about pirates versus ninjas contains a lot of irrelevant content.  For example, the entry Talk Like a Pirate Day.  Yes, this is relevant to pirates, but not to Pirates versus Ninjas debate.  If this content is necessary, then all the content about pirates--history, global economic effects, etc.--would have to be included.  Same with the ninja.  This article should be limited to the content matter, and leave those parts exclusively about pirates and ninja in a Pirate wiki and Ninja wiki respectively.
:While I personally prefer Ninja, I think that the National Talk Like a Pirate Day is important to include in the list for a couple of reasons. First, it demonstrates the rising popularity of the pirate faction and how it was introduced into popular culture. While it isn't directly related to the PvN debate, it is important to have a "source" for the Pirates so we can see how Ninjas were later integrated. Secondly, the since-created Ninja Day directly corresponds with TLAPD, in that it was created as an ninja alternative to an established pirate "holiday". As a result, it is important to note the creation of TLAPD on the timeline, even though the PvN debate did not yet exist in popular culture at the time. Perhaps the addition of a small sentence clarifying this would be useful.
:Also, as elsewhere noted on this talk page, the "To Kill A Mockingbird" flash "book report" includes strong but unspoken PvN themes. It even includes an alliance between them near the end. Personally I am certain that it was the first time that I noticed the PvN debate. I am going to research the dates and perhaps add it to the timeline if I feel it warrants mention as a significant development, or not if it's only a by-product of the meme. 63.239.183.126 14:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Contains a lot of irrelevant content

message: We leave this, and destroy thorough articles about webcomics that also exist in published form? Huh.
:There is no cabal. Lots42 (talk) 08:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: So, wait...

message: What about Hattori Hanzou, Jounin of the Iga-gumi, possibly being killed by the Fuma, who had once been ninja and degenerated into pirates?  Surely that warrants mention in this article somewhere.
Certainly a closer real-life parallel than that idiotic thing about Japanese whalers.  Nagakura shin8 19:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hanzo and the Fuma

message: Hopefully, this will narrow the scope of the section so that not every website with "Pirate" or "Ninja" on it needs to be on the timeline. Timelines are for well documented subjects, which internet memes most certainly are not. I think any NEW content should be discussed first, to keep this article from bloating. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phantombantam (talk • contribs) 06:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pirates Vs. Ninja in Popular culture

message: I deleted this section because it was unsourced and appeared to be original research. Viltris 04:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That might be said of the article as a whole.  Surprising this never went through an AfD MrZaiustalk 05:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Secret History of the Debate

message: How about a mention of the [], Facebook, application. It has over 2 million people that have added it. Bluemilkman 21:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. 129.237.90.48 08:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Facebook

message: I've added some bare-minimal information on the Facebook app, complete with references and a quote. (By the way, I'm a Level 7 Pirate, Top Pirate in Ferris State University's PvN network, #5001 in all Facebook as of 12/3/07 and #2620 among all Pirates.)
--The Bulldozer (talk) 05:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerning Facebook

message: Please don't delete this, I'm using it as a reference in my essay about pirates vs ninja in internet culture. This article needs a bit of cleaning up, but it was a useful resource for me.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.89.255 (talk) 01:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Woah!

message: I've saved this article to DozerfleetWiki for safekeeping, in case it is deleted.  You may allude to it here.  I'll be fixing it for formatting and credits soon.  You may use whatever you wish from this article, and it's licensed under Creative Commons 3.0.
--The Bulldozer (talk) 06:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To the rescue.

message: "In 2007, Rhode Island's premiere Goth/Industrial club night, Sanctuary, hosted a Pirates vs. Ninjas themed club event featuring a danceoff. The Pirates were victorious due to sheer volume. There will be a rematch April 6, 2008."
So what happened????  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.18.61.15 (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Update needed

message: Hello, random user here; has anyone heard of the now up and rising pirate monkey/pirate ninja phenomenon (I think it deserves a section here, as it can't really be added anywhere else), and moreover, why hasn't anyone made a link to this, this, and this yet? It's a decidedly minor thing but even so...
7h3 3L173 (talk) 23:37, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Monkeys

message: Well? whaddaya think?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.182.95 (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The Delicate Balance: [http://knowyourmeme.com/i/21411/original/yin-yaaar.jpg?1254534550]

message: In a day's time one editor has wiped out most of the article without discussion.  Listing notable examples of the Pirate versus Ninja phenomenon appearing, I believe is not only interesting to those who will actually want to read the article, but also important encyclopedic content, showing how things developed over time.  Others please state their opinion here.  Dream Focus 03:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Primary sourced list cruft. What "encyclopedic" value was "lost"? If they are indeed "notable" then find some third party sources that have noted them. Active Banana (talk) 03:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going through the list now, and have removed anything that isn't notable.  Things that link to their own Wikipedia article, or have news mention of them in video game reliable source sites or whatnot, belong here.  Dream Focus 03:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Random lists of even notable stuff does not make encyclopedic content. Active Banana (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You should actually read that link.  It doesn't say anything about this sort of thing.  Wikipedia has always had notable examples of something an article was about listed in that article, or in some cases a side article.  Dream Focus 05:33, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:IINFO "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia"  and realted WP:NOTDIR "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed. ... Wikipedia articles are not: Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics ... Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contribute to the list topic" there is no indication that such factor exists for these entries. Active Banana (talk) 17:26, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you say WP:OR? Active Banana (talk) 22:56, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you say COMMON SENSE?  It isn't original research to say that a game that came out in 1989 had it 20 years before one that came out in 2009.  Dream Focus 00:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Claiming or impying that something is part of the ninja v pirate meme is not a "common sense" issue. Its a matter of policy and having sources to support any analysis and interpreation we put in the article. Active Banana (talk) 00:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: meme is a unit of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, which can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals or other imitable phenomena. You can list every notable appearance in something that a significant number of people witnessed or heard about, that the only way to track it.  Not everyone first heard about it from the same source.  Dream Focus 03:24, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: RE: "You can list every notable appearance in something that a significant number of people witnessed or heard about," - It is original research for US to determine that. And what is your evidence that "a significant number of people witnessed or heard about" Skull & Crossbones-apparently not enough that it is notable. And wikipedia is NOT a list of indiscriminate information.Active Banana (talk) 11:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

text: That would be original research. We don't need to build a list of things that reference pirates vs ninjas to show that it has entered popular culture. We need to (and have) link to secondary sources that do this for us. Wentomowameadow (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Far too much stuff in article deleted by one user

message: There was a time when this article was written well enough that it was useful in educating those who were ignorant of the basic Pirate vs. Ninja idea. 
This is no longer true. 
While any article related to web culture is going to have much debate over what is and is not considered relevant or "encyclopedic", I don't think it is acceptable for articles to be poorly written.
 
As an example, the very first sentence of the article has been edited from:
Pirates versus Ninjas (or vice versa) is an internet meme that circulates in the form of an ongoing debate that asks the question "Who would win in a fight: pirates or ninjas?[1]"  
into 
Pirates vs. Ninjas is a comedic Internet[1] and gaming[2][3] meme regarding a theoretical conflict between pirates and ninjas, generally including arbitrary "debate" over which side would win in a fight.
Please note that the simple and concise question that is the meme (who would win: pirates or ninjas) has been edited to the point where it is no longer recognizable. 
I hope all will recognize that the net result of the edits/discussion/trolling etc. over the years is a two paragraph article that does not make sense to anyone unfamiliar with the subject matter. 
It can be better, but clearly a plan for improvement is needed. Would anyone like to propose an outline? Somethingshiny (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 06:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... that second sentence actually looks much better. I don't know what your problem is with it. It states it is not merely unique to the internet, emphasises the fact that the conflict is merely theoretical, and points out that any debate is typically "lol no smoke bomb". Also, it no longer looks like it was written by a sixth-grader. 143.92.1.33 (talk) 01:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: WHAT HAPPENED? '''CAN WE FIX IT?'''

message: At least have one that doesn't look like marshmallows being angry. Lots42 (talk) 08:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The current imag 

message: ...and there is no evidence to suggest that pirates and ninjas existed during the same time period...
Perhaps that should read "...to suggest that clasical pirates and ninjas existed during...", since nowadays there are enough pirates to make the news (in the coast of Africa for example) and there are plenty practitioners of the ninja arts as well. --TiagoTiago (talk) 21:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Concurrency of pirates and ninjas in modern times

message: There's a "citation needed" tag attached to the assertion that actual confrontations between pirates and ninjas have never been recorded in history. Is it really necessary to attach a "citation needed" tag to a sentence which states that there is nothing to cite in the first place? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.51.41.196  (talk • contribs) 08:10, 31 December 2012
:That does seem silly. But it's not really a claim we should be making if a reliable source hasn't said the same. --BDD (talk) 00:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation note