Talk:LGBT themes in comics

message: "Gender-swapping storylines and characters
Very few mainstream comic books have introduced transgendered characters. However, it is quite common for characters to have their gender changed for a short time by science-fictional or magical means. A number of characters also exist that have the ability to change their sex at will.
In comic books that include male-to-female or female-to-male transformations, the characters undergo these transformations as a result of a variety of causes, including: Genetic mutations, Magic, Shape-shifting abilities, Psychic powers, and Sex-change drugs."
:::I rescued this from the page history, to remind us to research it, and other uses of comic book tropes as LGBT metaphors.YobMod 13:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Gender swapping

message: DC gets a comparatively good rap in this article. Has anyone come across an RS-compliant source discussing the fact that many of their gay characters, especially the earlier ones, appear on imprints, rather than in mainstream DC universe titles? Disregard Vertigo and Wildstorm, and DC's track record doesn't look so much more progressive than Marvel's. Gonzonoir (talk)
:I have sources mentioning that LGBT characters more more likely found in imprints. I'll add it. Don't know which comics are from which imprint though, is it worth noting it for each one?
::Sounds great. FWIW: Sandman's Vertigo; Apollo and Midnighter are from the Wildstorm title Authority. I believe Wildstorm was independent when The Authority launched (DC bought it in 1999, but later in the year I think), so these were gay characters who weren't introduced under DC's aegis. Gonzonoir (talk) 12:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's really as straightforward as "conservatives protested", I'd say a catch-all section is fine. Any protests that took an unusual form, or gained unusual amounts of coverage, might be worth covering separately, though. Stuff from comics creators, too, might be of interest; I seem to remember Chuck Dixon decrying the gay reincarnation of  Rawhide Kid. Gonzonoir (talk) 14:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  DC 

message: This phrasing looks great :) I was only objecting to the idea that today in Britain people regard comics as solely for kids, but obviously there's a specific subgenre of British homegrown stuff that very much was pitched at kids. Nowadays, of course, you get stuff like Kev, which is very British and very unsuitable for kids, but maybe this is some kind of modern metagenre, and maybe I'm just Comic Book Gal and have too much of a hot button about this :) Gonzonoir (talk) 12:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is all good. According to the source, kids comics became the biggest market before 1914 and this is still the case until after 1990s. Is difficult to remember that WHSmiths is still the biggest comic book seller in the UK, with cheap kids comics being the biggest sellers - but "most of 20th century" covers it :-).YobMod 12:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't know that about Smiths. Live and learn :) Gonzonoir (talk) 14:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  British comics 

message: The reference to Mark should be re-worked to clarify that he was not openly gay upon introduction. He didn't come out until sometime in the 1990s, after Andy Lippencott's death. Otto4711 (talk) 07:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info - it made me search out more sources, and you're completely right.YobMod 08:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mark Slackmeyer 

message: I've replaced most of the citations with template:citation which can be used for any source, regardless of whether its coming from a web site, newspaper, journal etc. FA will be a lot more meticulous when it comes to the quality of sources and the format of references, but I still consider this GA quality. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 01:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, thanks! I usually ignore reference formatting until after GA, but it certainly looks better, so earlier is good.YobMod 08:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ignoring the format of references is a big no! no! It will come back to bite you in the ass because FA reviwers will fail the article if the references are screwed up, even if the rest of the article is perfect. Its best to get it out of the way as quickly as humanly possible. Even with GA, its possible to get a quick fail based on sources/references since its the foundation of the articles information. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 12:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, i know you are right. But that is why i don't take articles to FAN - i could write a GA article with 100 sources in the time it takes to fix all the MoS niggles and change hyphens to n-dashes and double dashes to m-dashes etc etc, which benefits the reader not a jot. But thanks! And i promise to use the general template in future (why do the others even exist?)YobMod 14:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Its just a personal preference: some editors are accustomed to only using web sources or journal sources, etc. I always use a wide variety, so its easier for me to use the universal template. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 06:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  citation templates 

message: "Superman was turned gay in a single comic book where he is exposed to Pink Kryptonite. From Supergirl (vol. 2) #79, an alternate timeline in a 2003 Supergirl storyline by Peter David. It affected the Superman of this reality; one of the results is Superman giving flattering compliments to Jimmy Olsen about his wardrobe and decorative sense. It spoofs the more "innocent times" of the Silver Age (Lois Lane is depicted in this story as not understanding what's gotten into Superman)."Superdickery.com: Seduction of the Innocent
I think this needs a secondary source discussing it, rather than the ocmic book panel. I agree that he is supposed to be acting gay from the Pink Kryptonite, but it seems not an important example, unless we have sources about it.YobMod 08:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Superman

message: There fails to be mention of them in the article. Didn't the creator say they had a relationship,and their relationship has been speculated before? 98.14.15.12 (talk) 17:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn 

message: Since reaching GA, most of the article expansion has been in the US section, and many of the talk page suggestions too. Although additions are often unsourced, my previous research showed that many could be sourced (and were not included due to space constraints and the sources being websites rather than books). 
Do editors think we could make a GA worthy article just about the mainstream US comics, or would it be too listy (xxxx kissed yyyy in issue zzzz, aaaa dressed as a woman in issue bbbb) or too specific? If I split a subarticle off, what more needs including to make that GA (it is pretty comprehensive already, imo). Also how much of a summary should be left behind? (I'm thinking at least as large as the other sections, so 6-7 paragraphs). This would then make the article much more resistant to "worldwide" or "undue weight" tagging - i just don't like creating articles that can't be at least GA :-).
YobMod 07:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Splitting an American comics subarticle? GA worthy?

message: The article had in it this sentence and citation:
"Gay manga often have more realistic and autobiographical themes compared to yaoi." Cited to:
, page 494
I looked up the cite in hopes of finding more info, and found that it does not discuss gay men's manga at all; it moves directly from a discussion of yaoi to a discussion of novels by gay men (which are described as "marked by realism and often appear to be autobiographical"). Therefore, I have removed this sentence, as it is a misinterpretation of the cited work.  - JRBrown (talk) 20:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing a cited sentence

message: There's plenty of evidence suggestion that the Joker has some gay fixation on Batman. Here's a list of comic book quotes & what issues they come from; most of them sounding a bit romantic. http://community.livejournal.com/joker_in_ink/42633.html & littered among this gallery are actual scans these quotes are taken from: http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/likalaruku/narcissus-his-twisted-reflection/108-29125/  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.118.100 (talk) 11:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a sentence mentioning the Joker, any more would be too much detail imo, as there are so few reliable sources discussing it. If there are sources explaining why the Joker relationship to Batman is a "homophobic nightmare", (which is the quote in the article) that would be helpful. The primary sources themselves are much too vague, which would explain why commentators haven't really focused on itYobMod 11:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Joker. 

message: Does anyone know of any LGBT characters in Valiant titles? I can only find mention that once character was once intended to be gay, but the story never happened. Considering Shooter's remarks about Marvel's lack of LGBT characters and his Hulk gay rape story, i'm suprised his company has nothing.YobMod 17:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: LGBT Valiant characters

message: With suggestions of homosexuality banned by the Comics Code Authority until 1989, as mentioned in the article, many of this article's complaints against Marvel in the 1980s are inappropriate. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 03:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Marvel's alleged anti-gay policy

message: In regard to Rawhide Kid, is this an accurate astatement?  Northstar was openly gay when he had his own limited series, which was many years before Slap Leather.  Is this statement made in the sense of retcon? --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: First openly gay comic book hero?

message: No mention of Hothead Paisan? :( Kaldari (talk) 04:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hothead Paisan 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I am removing (for the third time) the remark about death threats against Lynn Johnston. It makes reference to two sources, one which was a deadlink, and the other which mentions that residuals dropped, and as such Lynn had a tougher time making payments on her Lexus. Hardly a threat on one's life or limb. USN1977 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's well sourced and factual. Please stop trying to suppress this information. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:42, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Lynn Johnston death threats?

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*Added  tag to http://www.aolnews.com/weird-news/article/gays-happy-about-new-archie-comics-character/19451734
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090924164140/http://www.2000adreview.co.uk/reviews/extra/2005/trades/devlin_waugh/swimming_in_blood.shtml to http://www.2000adreview.co.uk/reviews/extra/2005/trades/devlin_waugh/swimming_in_blood.shtml
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100316054502/http://prismcomics.org/display.php?id=1304 to http://prismcomics.org/display.php?id=1304
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100427191053/http://www.archiecomics.com/blog/news/2010/04/archie-comics-introduces-first-openly-gay-character.html to http://www.archiecomics.com/blog/news/2010/04/archie-comics-introduces-first-openly-gay-character.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This introduction reads weak and biased towards US culture as the first paragraph focuses primarily on the US, including essential information about comics in the US only. Bias continues into the comic strip paragraph at the bottom. I propose the following rewrite with some reorganization, primarily moving the "fandom and awards" section out of "Mainstream American" and below "Mainstream Japanese" into its own new section, in order to allow more inclusive reporting on international awards and fandom, later on. I've also moved around some sentences that have become orphaned below unrelated subjects. This may seem a radical proposal, but I feel it better represents this subject. Please offer any consensus:
LGBT themes in comics are a relatively new concept, as lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) themes and characters were historically omitted intentionally from the content of comic books and their comic strip predecessors, due to either censorship or the perception that comics were for children.The Yellow Kid, first serialized in 1895, is considered the "first newspaper comic strip," though "the mechanics of comic strips were in use well before the Kid debut in illustrated magazines."  In the Twentieth century, the popularity of comic books in the USA, Europe and Japan have seen distinct approaches to LGBT themes. With only minimal attention to LGBT characters in the early part of the century using innuendo, subtext and inference, to out-right acceptance later on and into the Twenty-first century, exploring challenges of coming-out and discrimination in society, LGBT themes in comics reflect the change towards acceptance in world-wide attitudes with homosexuality, cross-dressing and gender dysphoria. Queer theorists have noted that LGBT characters in mainstream comic books are usually shown as assimilated into heterosexual society, whereas in alternative comics the diversity and uniqueness of LGBT culture is emphasized.
With any mention of homosexuality in mainstream United States comics forbidden by the Comics Code Authority (CCA) between 1954 and 1989, earlier attempts at exploring these issues in the US took the form of subtle hints or subtext regarding a character's sexual orientation. LGBT themes were tackled earlier in underground comix from the early 1970s onward. Independently published one-off comic books and series, produced by gay creators featured autobiographical storylines tackling political issues of interest to LGBT readers, began in the mid-'70s, gaining popularity through the '80s. Since the 1990s LGBT themes have become more common in mainstream US comics, including in a number of titles in which a gay character is the star. 
Comic strips have also dealt in subtext and innuendo, their wide distribution in print newspapers and magazines limiting their inclusion of controversial material. The first openly gay characters in the US appeared in prominent strips in the late 1970s; representation of LGBT issues in these titles causes vociferous reaction, both praise and condemnation. Today comic strips educating readers about LGBT-related issues are syndicated in LGBT-targeted print media and online in web comics.
A lack of censorship and greater acceptance of comics as a medium for adult entertainment in Europe has lead European comics to be more inclusive from an earlier date, leading to less controversy about the representation of LGBT characters in their pages. Notable comics creators have produced work from France, Belgium, Spain, Germany and Britain.
Japanese manga tradition has included genres of girls' comics that feature homosexual relationships since the 1970s, in the form of yaoi and yuri. These works are often extremely romantic and idealized, and include archetypal characters that often do not identify as gay or lesbian. Since the Japanese "gay boom" of the 1990s, a body of manga by queer creators aimed at LGBT customers has been established, including both bara manga for gay men and yuri aimed at lesbians, which often have more realistic and autobiographical themes. Pornographic manga also often includes sexualised depictions of lesbians and intersex people.
Portrayal of LGBT themes in comics is recognized by several notable awards, including the Gaylactic Spectrum Awards and GLAAD Media Awards for outstanding comic book and comic strip. The Lambda Literary Foundation, recognizing notable literature for LGBT themes with their "Lammys" awards since 1988, created a new category in 2014 for graphic works. Prism Comics, an organization formed in 2003 for promoting LGBTQ themes in comic books, has provided the "Queer Press Grant" for comic book creators since 2005.
Volpane (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  revising introduction summary 

message: The article mentions the character Northstar from Marvel as the first depiction of a same-sex wedding in mainstream comics (I assume it includes all types of comics and not just superheroes). It also mentions the Wildstorm characters of Apollo and Midnighter as being a gay couple. It seems issue #29 of The Authority, from back in 2002, depicted the gay wedding of those two characters, making it so the Wildstorm characters had the first depiction of a gay wedding, not Northstar, preceding the later for about 10 years. As it remains, the information looks confusing. 177.47.49.23 (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Late reply, but I think I can clear the confusion. Although Midnighter and Apollo's wedding did happen earlier in 2002, the comic The Authority took place outside the main DC Universe and published by one of DC's imprints. Astonishing X-Men on the other hand was published directly by Marvel, set in their main universe, and the comic itself was a mainstream title. --PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who was the first gay couple in mainstream comics?