Talk:Allentown, Pennsylvania/Archive 1

message: The historical summary on Allentown and its founder has several inaccuracies:
- The land Allen purchased hardly qualifies as an "estate" since the area was almost entirely wilderness and Allen had no intention of settling here. It should be mentioned that the land was acquired from the Penns, because it shows the historical roots of the land, its ties to the most influential family of the period.
- Trout Hall was not built on the site of Allen's hunting lodge (also named Trout Hall). The lodge's site is believed to have been several blocks to the north.
- The house (not a building) is not the city's oldest structure; Hunter's Cabin, built in the early 1740's in what is now Lehigh Parkway, qualifies for that distinction. I believe that pointing out Trout Hall's current use (home of the Historical Society) reflects the property's significance as well as the fact that the structure is still standing.
- It is highly doubtful the city's proximity to New York City had anything to do with Allen's motivation since 90 miles was a considerable distance in those days and New York was far removed as a sphere of influence in eastern Pennsylvania.
- One more quibble: Allen is often described in local histories as a "merchant," but that term is now limited to retailing so its use here is archaic; at any rate, it hardly does justice to the fact that Allen owned one of the largest, most successful shipping businesses in Colonial America. Submitted by Allreet, 07 November 2006
:The above was corrected.  See History. Allreet (talk) 23:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Allentown History

message: * I suggest adding a section of famous Allentown places and landmarks. Things such as Yaccos hotdogs, Salvatores Pizzeria, the Ritz, Louies Restaurant, the Farmers market, the Allentown Fair, etc... I will add it myself if no one has any objections.
:Hey, good suggestion.  We did get Yocco's Hot Dogs done!  PAWiki 22:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the "world's" is probably going a bit far.  It certainly is one of the most popular on the East Coast of the U.S. and might even say the U.S.  It is worded pretty well now, I think.  PAWiki 22:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Landmarks

message: I have removed this from the main page, but here is the template that was proposed for the information box and hopefully someone can work on it, in accordance with this format below.  PAWiki 13:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the info to the new infobox. harpchad 15:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Allentown information box

message: After a quick glance at a Google map of Allentown, it sure looks like the city is pretty well gridded to me! Sure, not every major road follows a grid once outside the central city, but very few cities of this size will be built entirely to any one rigid grid system.
Now if this was being written about downtown Boston...Hillsboro 21:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roads 

message: I think Dorney Park should be removed from the introduction, as it is located in South Whitehall Township, and has a Dorneyville address, not Allentown. Maybe it should be noted somewhere in the article that Dorney Park is close to Allentown, but the introduction should be reserved for information pertinent to the city itself.
(There were similar issues with things being included in the Lancaster, Pennsylvania article that were actually in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania; it was decided that they be moved to the County article)Passdoubt | Talk 16:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dorney Park 

message: There were a number of edits I made to clean up the writing style somewhat.  However, I made a number of deletions based on information that is NOT a part of Allentown.  Eagles camp is in Bethlehem...why is that listed under Allentown?  It shouldn't be.  Had this been an article about the Lehigh Valley, I would agree.  I also deleted the other sports team that is played in Stabler Arena.  Again, this is in Bethlehem, not in Allentown.
I also removed the multiple airports reference.  Of course this entry should mention Lehigh Valley International Airport.  But then mentioning Newark, Philly, JFK, and LaGuardia...why?  If you want to name airports, why not also include the airport in Harrisburg?  Or Reading?   They're both certainly closer to Allentown than JFK and LaGuardia.  Where do you stop?
I went to school in Allentown, and it will always have a place in my heart, but this article should be about Allentown, not the surrounding Lehigh Valley. Asc85 00:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the idea was to basically write the article so that, if you were visiting Allentown, or wanted to know information about the city, it would be in there, including some sports and travel information.  The idea of the airports is that they are larger ones that would be more commonly used for direct travel in Allentown if one were not using LVIA, as many don't. Like many mid-sized cities, a lot of these things aren't located in the city itself, as, come to think of it, LVIA isn't.  Anyway, it's a judgment call.  PAWiki 10:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits on Sept. 15, 2006 

message: I also see the Allentown template appears broken.  Maybe someone can fix that?  PAWiki 10:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: We're getting a bit lengthy (30k+ in size), and the article is getting unwieldy.  I'd like to propose that we start a PEOPLE & CULTURE subhead, and break-off NOTABLE RESIDENTS (which appears to already dupe a pre-existing page linked from the bottom of the Allentown article), POPULAR CULTURE, MEDIA, LANDMARKS and MUSEUMS into their own individual pages.  I'd recommend taking a look at other cities (notably Philadelphia) for an example as to how I propose handling.  Since this is a fairly major edit, I figure I'd throw it out for group discussion before undertaking. Alphageekpa 12:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This page keeps getting longer and longer, and seems to be including more and more information that is better suited for Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania than here.  Allentown is Allentown.  Bethlehem is Bethlehem.  If you believe it's a "region" thing, I'd recommend it goes into Lehigh Valley rather than Allentown.  Sorry, PAWiki, but things like STABLER ARENA = Bethlehem.  EAGLES TRAINING CAMP = Bethlehem. BEAR CREEK = Macungie.  Allentown should be about Allentown, and we shouldn't poach things that belong to other cities/towns...if we do, put it in Lehigh Valley, since it probably impacts the entire region, not just Allentown proper...  Just my two cents... Alphageekpa 12:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, I killed the Lehigh Valley ballpark image.  There is no way these conceptual images are not copyrighted, most likely by the architects who designed the facility.  And they were poached from ballparkwatch.com anyway...even though it was attributed to that site, I doubt ballparkwatch.com had the right to use 'em... If I'm wrong, fine, we'll revert...but I don't believe I am...  Alphageekpa 12:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I second the shortening, this artical is longer than new york city'sTtttrrrreeeeyyyyyy 23:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Consolidation and Organization

message: If anyone has some spare time and wants to develop, I believe the following categories warrant some additional effort and focus:
>ECONOMY:  Allentown has a long history in manufacturing, that has gone through several notable phases since the early 1800s.  This history is inextricably tied to the type of city Allentown has become.  The current entry merely discusses current corporations based in Allentown (which I think should be broken-off into another page and expanded), not the history of industry in the city.
>HISTORY: Still a little weak.  There's more to Allentown's history than Trout Hall, the hiding of the Liberty Bell and beer.
>FROM SCRATCH: How about CLIMATE?  GOVERNMENT?  SUBURBS?
>CITATIONS:  Lastly, if we really want to make this entry more solid, we need citations.  As of this date, there are none associated with this article.
>PHOTOGRAPHS:  Can someone local get some good pictures for the article?  Perhaps one of the PPL Building lit up at night, the Allentown Band playing at the bandshell in West Park, or something that is indicative of Allentown's image and personality?
That's it for now.  Appreciate everyone's input and assistance in making this a great article!  Alphageekpa 12:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections for Development

message: :I need some assistance in trying to get the high school affiliations for all of the notable people on this page, since I think this would represent good and important additions to their articles.  Some already have them listed, but others don't.  If their Allentown-area high school is not listed, I did post a request for that information on the respective discussion page.  Anyway, if anyone knows any of the high school affiliations for the notable Allentown people who do not have a high school listed, please post that information here so I can go about adding it to the respective page and also the article on the high school (if a page on the respective person's high school exists).  Thanks.  PAWiki 22:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: High School Affiliations

message: :Also, I think it would be great if we could get an article developed on Whitehall High School in Whitehall Township and (less important) Lehigh Valley Christian High School.  I believe these are the only two Allentown-area high schools without their own articles.  Thanks.  PAWiki 22:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: High Schools Part II

message: I'd to include some concept photo of Lehigh County Ballpark.  That's a pretty big deal for the city.  I used the one from the Lehigh County Ballpark page, but I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong with the caption.  Maybe someone can assist me in fixing that?  Thanks.  PAWiki 15:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In order to claim fair use in this article you're going to have validate bullet 8 of WP:FUC: The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose. Personally I think it is very borderline if that. ccwaters 15:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lehigh County Ballpark

message: Trying to be civil here, but suffice to say, I very much disagree with PAWiki continuing to list the Eagles and LVO in this entry.  Very briefly, my position is that it is appropriate to list this under "Bethlehem" but not Allentown.
Accordingly, I was wondering if we could have a "vote" on this issue?  Today is October 2...why don't we give it a week until October 9?  See if anyone else besides PAWiki and myself have an opinion on this one?  I'm certainly willing to abide by whatever the majority thinks if PAWiki will.  As a sign of "good faith," I have not removed the reference on this article. Asc85 15:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My comments, copied from above.  "This page keeps getting longer and longer, and seems to be including more and more information that is better suited for Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania than here.  Allentown is Allentown.  Bethlehem is Bethlehem.  If you believe it's a "region" thing, I'd recommend it goes into Lehigh Valley rather than Allentown.  Sorry, PAWiki, but things like STABLER ARENA = Bethlehem.  EAGLES TRAINING CAMP = Bethlehem. BEAR CREEK = Macungie.  Allentown should be about Allentown, and we shouldn't poach things that belong to other cities/towns...if we do, put it in Lehigh Valley, since it probably impacts the entire region, not just Allentown proper...  Just my two cents... "Alphageekpa 12:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My view was that it's a big part of Allentown athletics and certainly important to many Allentonians.  If there wasn't a Lehigh Valley article, I guess I'd feel more passionate about it.  But I'll remove it.  Thanks for the input.  PAWiki 22:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of Eagles and LVO in Allentown entry 

message: Below is the content copied over from the merger of Tilghman St into the Allentown article.  I think road coverage in existing article is more than adequate, so I'm moving this here for archiving purposes.  Alphageekpa 10:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This was a well done article about a major street/highway and should have stood as a stand-alone article.  I am going to restart it, and let's pay attention in the event there is another Vfd.  It should be its own article, or deleted entirely, but (I agree with Alphageekpa), it has no place on the Allentown page, despite the merge vote.  PAWiki 17:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: end of copy
I was the one who did the merge. In case anyone's confused, it's because of this AfD. --`/aksha 11:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It would have been nice if a fair warning in the form of a proposed merge tag was added to this talk page a few days ago. Without any input from those watching THIS article, you have effectively turned it into a trash heap for unwanted material. ccwaters 18:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All of you people from this article were free to participate in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tilghman_Street too you know. You could have pointed that out on the AfD. People do listen when editors point out problems with the resulting article from a merge. Go recreate it if you really want to keep the information but don't want it here. But i highly suspect it will just get AfDed again. And if there's no input from this end, the result will probably just be a merge again. --`/aksha 04:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Notice of the afd and merge should've been posted HERE, and it wasn't.  I, for one, can vouch that it was never posted here, and I work on the Allentown page almost daily.  THAT is what has people upset. Alphageekpa 10:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yaksha: thanks for noticing no one here provided input. Read my comment again and ask yourself why we didn't participate: Answer: No one was given notice here. ccwaters 14:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tilghman Street merge 

message: Tilghman Street is a major street in Allentown, Pennsylvania, in the United States.  The street is sometimes referred to as Old Route 22 because it used to be U.S. Route 22 back in the 1920s. 
The name of the street lasts for about 10 miles from Pennsylvania Route 100 where it is  continuous as Main Street/Old Route 22 to Front Street in Allentown. 
====History====
Tilghman Street was once U.S. Route 22.  In the 1960s, when the Interstate 78 freeway was constructed, it replaced the current freeway that today is U.S. Route 22 and once was known as Interstate 78.  U.S. Route 22 used to run through northern Allentown as Tilghman Street and then became Union Boulevard, from which it goes into Bethlehem and Easton.
Just a little confusion here.  In the 60's the road then known as the "Lehigh Valley Thruway" was built.  It was designated US22, and Tilghman St lost that designation.  There was no I78 in the LV at that time.  In the 1990s, (late 80s?) I78 was extended into the LV.  Part of its course follows the LV Thruway, and is both I78 and US22, part is new construction, and part follow PA309.
====Street description====
Tilghman Street starts at Pennsylvania Route 100, where it continues as Main Street then Old Route 22.  The speed limit on the street is 45 MPH. Tilghman Street divides into a mini freeway when meeting U.S. Route 22. West-bound Tilghmam Street is used only for U.S. Route 22 West. The east bound of Tilghamn Street uses U.S. Route 22 EAST. The same thing for ramps coming off Route 22. Then, Tilghman Steet turns local and there's an enterance to the Pennsylvania Turnpike at Interstate 476.  
From there, it crosses above the Pennsylvania Turnpike and then intersects with Pennsylvania Route 309. One mile east of that interesection, there's an intersection with Cedar Crest Boulevard. Then, Tilghman Street enters Allentown, where it crosses more than 30 streets in the city. 
Tilghman Street is a fast route in Allentown, where the traffic lights give cars on Tilghman Street substantially more time to cross.  Where Tilghman Street reaches the more populated part of the city, it interchanges with Pennsylvania Route 145, forming Alllentown's 6th and 7th Streets. Then it crosses the first of two bridges where Jordan Creek and American Parkway run below. From there, it reaches Front Street where it crosses the second brige and becomes Union Boulevard. You can still find Tilghman Street in East Allentown but not connected to this fast route.
====Major Intersections====
 
 Intersections 
Place               	Intersection                            	Notes
Fogelsville         	Pennsylvania Route 100                  	This is where Tilghman Street ends and Continues as Main Street.
Kuhnsville          	U.S. Route 22                           	Westbound:US 22 WEST only  Eastbound:US 22 EAST only
South Whitehall Twp.	Interstate 476                          	The North East Extension of The Pennsylvania Turnpike
South Whitehall Twp.	Pennsylvania Route 309                  	This is an interchange with Pennsylvania Route 309
Allentown           	Cedar Crest Blvd.                       	
Allentown           	Pennsylvania Route 145 SOUTH: 7th Street	To Center City Allentown
Allentown           	Pennsylvania Route 145 NORTH: 6th Street	To Lehigh Valley Shopping Malls
:end of copy
I was the one who did the merge. In case anyone's confused, it's because of this AfD. --`/aksha 11:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would have been nice if a fair warning in the form of a proposed merge tag was added to this talk page a few days ago. Without any input from those watching THIS article, you have effectively turned it into a trash heap for unwanted material. ccwaters 18:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All of you people from this article were free to participate in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tilghman_Street too you know. You could have pointed that out on the AfD. People do listen when editors point out problems with the resulting article from a merge. Go recreate it if you really want to keep the information but don't want it here. But i highly suspect it will just get AfDed again. And if there's no input from this end, the result will probably just be a merge again. --`/aksha 04:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Notice of the afd and merge should've been posted HERE, and it wasn't.  I, for one, can vouch that it was never posted here, and I work on the Allentown page almost daily.  THAT is what has people upset. Alphageekpa 10:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yaksha: thanks for noticing no one here provided input. Read my comment again and ask yourself why we didn't participate: Answer: No one was given notice here. ccwaters 14:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tilghman Street

message: Intersections 
Place               	Intersection                            	Notes
Fogelsville         	Pennsylvania Route 100                  	This is where Tilghman Street ends and Continues as Main Street.
Kuhnsville          	U.S. Route 22                           	Westbound:US 22 WEST only  Eastbound:US 22 EAST only
South Whitehall Twp.	Interstate 476                          	The North East Extension of The Pennsylvania Turnpike
South Whitehall Twp.	Pennsylvania Route 309                  	This is an interchange with Pennsylvania Route 309
Allentown           	Cedar Crest Blvd.                       	
Allentown           	Pennsylvania Route 145 SOUTH: 7th Street	To Center City Allentown
Allentown           	Pennsylvania Route 145 NORTH: 6th Street	To Lehigh Valley Shopping Malls
:end of copy
I was the one who did the merge. In case anyone's confused, it's because of this AfD. --`/aksha 11:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would have been nice if a fair warning in the form of a proposed merge tag was added to this talk page a few days ago. Without any input from those watching THIS article, you have effectively turned it into a trash heap for unwanted material. ccwaters 18:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All of you people from this article were free to participate in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tilghman_Street too you know. You could have pointed that out on the AfD. People do listen when editors point out problems with the resulting article from a merge. Go recreate it if you really want to keep the information but don't want it here. But i highly suspect it will just get AfDed again. And if there's no input from this end, the result will probably just be a merge again. --`/aksha 04:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Notice of the afd and merge should've been posted HERE, and it wasn't.  I, for one, can vouch that it was never posted here, and I work on the Allentown page almost daily.  THAT is what has people upset. Alphageekpa 10:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yaksha: thanks for noticing no one here provided input. Read my comment again and ask yourself why we didn't participate: Answer: No one was given notice here. ccwaters 14:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Intersections

message: I just want to point out that List of famous people from Allentown, Pennsylvania exists out there.  At this point, I think the list on the main Allentown page suffices, since it is not too long, and the prospects of it growing too long are slim.  Maybe we should afd List of famous people from Allentown, Pennsylvania for the sake of accuracy and completeness...after all, it's not current, and not even linked from Allentown.  Alphageekpa 15:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of famous people from Allentown

message: If anyone is up for it, here is a site  that details other baseball teams (incl. leagues and years) that played in Allentown.  Some are of interest, including Kelly's Killers, who were coached by the colorful King Kelly. I also added a handful of professional baseball players born in Allentown to "Notable residents" -- four didn't have Wiki pages, but the links posted should give more than enough information if someone has the time and inclination. Alphageekpa 16:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Created pages for Johnny Bucha, Slim Emmerich, John Meister and Jeff Mutis.  Baseball's not my thing, but something's better than nothing. Alphageekpa 01:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Added minor league baseball history, 1884-1960. Runs a bit long relative to other sections. Perhaps it could become its own page at some point. Other professional sports also need to be addressed. Allreet (talk) 19:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Baseball

message: This article could really use some actual current photographs of Allentown, as opposed to the interesting but not especially informative art and historical postcards that are there now. --Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 04:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, and mentioned above in "Sections for Development."  The postcards, since in the public domain, are there to fill the void until someone comes up with something better.  Alphageekpa 23:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I definitely agree that actual photos (probably could use three or so) would be a great addition.  PAWiki 02:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've went ahead and added a template. Wikiprojects Pennsylvania will work on, or I myself will personally work on it.1312020Wikicop 01:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures? 

message: Dorney Park is not in Allentown.  It is in South Whitehall Township.  Does anyone else agree the contents of this article should only contain information related to the City?  If there is mention of Dorney it should be noted it is NOT in Allentown.  Jschnalzer 21:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please refer to the archives - this has been previously discussed.  Alphageekpa 19:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Correct Municipalities

message: Climate data is in Centigrade. This is America, damn it! This needs to be converted to Fahrenheit.  YourMother 21:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Climate