Talk:Th-fronting

message: Surely fronting in Estuary English cannot be independent of Cockney?  At any rate, I'm pretty darn sure that Wells doesn't claim so.  I'll reword. Grover cleveland (talk) 15:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wells concluded that Estuary English was just a media concoction.  I heard him say this in a speech on English pronunciation about three years ago.  Epa101 (talk) 12:29, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical independence

message: Perhaps some mention of θ → f in other languages could be made. Proto-Indo-European *dh shows up in Latin as f (e.g. facio < *dheh1-), presumably through an intermediate stage *θ. Greek words with θ were borrowed into Russian with f (e.g. Foma for Thomas, Afanasi for Athanasius etc.). —Angr (talk) 16:45, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other languages 

message: There are several dialects within Persian Gulf's Arab people, one of which is Bahrani Arabic dialect. Th-fronting is used in this dialect.
89.31.192.180 (talk) 08:20, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Arab's of Persian Gulf

message: Leeds University have the incidental material from the Survey of English Dialects online.  They are organised by county report here.  If you go through these, you'll notice that [variable] TH-fronting was reported in many locations across England, and not just in the dialects that are most associated with TH-fronting (e.g. Cockney).  For example, TH-fronting is not normally associated with Yorkshire accents, but it was reported in 16 of the 33 sites in Yorkshire.  These speakers were born in the late 19th century and spoke in ways far removed from Standard English.  This suggests that TH-fronting is not a new phenomenon.
I get the impression that it is more common when the TH is not word-initial.
Would anyone object to my adding something to the article to indicate this?  Epa101 (talk) 12:35, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a secondary source for this info? The survey seems to be a primary source, and we have to treat primary sources with a certain amount of caution to avoid original research. Angr (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I do not at present.  I understand the problem with original research on this.  I recall this comment which suggests that Joan Beal identified TH-fronting in northern England in the mid-19th century.  I might try to track down that article and see if it makes the claim.  I presume that would count as a secondary source.  Epa101 (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it would if it contains her analysis of the situation and not just "raw data". Angr (talk) 23:40, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I am Canuck, but I couldn't say TH for a while and I never had any speech therapy - maybe it is because my parents also couldn't. Cool fact though --CommieKarlovy (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Been around in England for a lot longer than many think (fink) 

message: Are th and f actually merged, so that thought and fought are homophones? Or is /f/ fronted further to [ɸ]? Steinbach (talk) 15:26, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure they're actually merged, so that thought and fought are homophones. Angr (talk) 15:34, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  8 years late, but, yes, they are homophones with th-fronting. --CommieKarlovy (talk) 14:21, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger or push chain 

message: In the recorded example, while with some generosity one might hear the first mention of “Thursday” as th-fronting, at least to my ears the second one has a decided th sound.  --Janko (talk) 11:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: He's also mimicking another's voice in that instance, so perhaps his mother didn't have the fronting? — kwami (talk) 08:22, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cockney example 

message: I thought it was pronounced like a T or D sound. Malcolmmwa (talk) 07:36, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: AAVE is not a monolith. Both occur. Steinbach (talk) 11:44, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  African American Vernacular English 

message: In my opinion, this phenomenon is not uncommon in Scotland. It is worth mentioning it in the article. Are there any scholarly articles about this? — GPodkolzin Talk 22:16, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It occurs in modern urban Scots/Scottish English, as mentioned under "Increase in use". Steinbach (talk) 11:45, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Th-fronting in Scotland 

message: The article speaks about th-fronting "currently making its way" into Estuary English, that is, into middle class speech, and cites a paper from 1999. Over twenty years have passed, so by now we should be able to say whether th-fronting has become established. Has it indeed spread upward, or is the feature still stigmatised as a sign of working-class background? Steinbach (talk) 18:50, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update needed 

message: Should we include a section about the words in Russian that were fronted, to the point that F became the standard pronunciation (and eventually the letter representing the theta sound was removed, after having been preserved as a F sound for historical and etymological reasons)? One notable example is the name Fyodor (as in Fyodor Dostoevsky). Malcolmmwa (talk) 06:09, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian