Talk:Aq Qoyunlu

message: "Turkish: Aq Qoyunlu" doesn't look right to me. I won't pretend to be fluent in Turkish or anything, but as a student of the language I'm yet to find the letter Q in it. The Black Sheep Turkmen are listed in Turkish as "Karakoyunlular", and it wouldn't surprise me if these Turkmen would actually be the "Akkoyunlular"
BigHaz 10:21, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled] 

message: First of all, Ak Koyunlular is a Turkish state. And there's no reason to put History of Iran. Even in the western language, people says White Sheep Turks (which means Ak Koyun in Turkish) . History of Iran is irrelevant in here. I removed it.
:Like I said in the Kara Koyunlu discussion, the capital of both Kara Koyunlu and Ak Koyunlu was Tabriz, which nowadays is an Iranian city. It is perfectly fair to say that they are part of Iran's history. Parishan 04:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Iran 

message: There's a history of a cut-and-paste move made by by Tajik in May 2006 (, ). Such moves sidestepping the normal "move" functionality must be avoided. Wait a moment so I can clean this up. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I've repaired it technically by merging the page histories of the two versions. Please note that I have personally not the slightest preference whether this should be on the one name or the other. Please work it out together and then do a Requested Move if necessary. Please do not re-create an article at the other location without properly moving this one. For the moment, I've used the "K" version, for the sole reason that it was the older article and hence, on a mere technical level, the more "legitimate" one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut-n-Paste Move 

message: Please feel free to reassign this article to a different stub category, but please don't just remove a specific template and replace it with the uncategorised stub tag.  Thanks. Jeodesic 23:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stub Sorting 

message: I am curious as to the history of the names "White Sheep" and "Black Sheep". Do "Ak" and "Kara" literally mean white and black? Did the two groups herd sheep? Or are they just called this because they were rivals, and Western scholars applied the epithet? (Might be something interesting to explain in the articles, as the average reader, like myself, with little knowledge of the region or the history, will find that curious.) Thank you. LordAmeth 14:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know why the "sheep" is used, but Ak/Kara literally means White/Black. Someone who knows the etymology can help with the explanation of the sheep though.. Baristarim 14:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ak and Kara were used as directions (North - South)--88.247.30.92 (talk) 14:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  White Sheep / Black Sheep 

message: Pejman47, Akkoyunlu are a Turkic dynasty, they ruled over what's now Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran and Iraq. So why should there be a tag on history of Iran only, this tag is irrelevant here. Either we should have all 5 tags or none. Atabek 14:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: History of Greater Iran template covers both, so it should be fine now, no need to insert two different templates when there is one that covers both.Hajji Piruz 17:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: History of Azerbaijan is History of Azerbaijan. It might have common area with other countries histories but we hsould not mix templates--Dacy69 15:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Deleting the Iranian history template is not right. Tabriz as the capital of the dynesty, has always been an Iranian city and in contrast, until recently, Azerbaijan has never been a independent nation /country, so placing such a template seems to be wired ... Anyway, according to the fact that today's Azerbaijan Republic was a province of the Kara Koyunlu , adding the template of Az.Rep history is tolerable , but deleting the Iranian template is impossible .--Alborz Fallah 08:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Iran is not a Turkic state, while Azerbaijan is. Iranian history never claims Akkoyunlu as predecessors of Iranian peoples, while Azerbaijani historiography does. Atabek 07:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Iran does not consider itself an ethnic state: Iranian nation is multi-ethnic. In fact, the Turkic language dynasties of Iran are the new uniting Iranian dynasties: the Safavids were been Turkic language, but the main builders of the modern Iranian nation. The Ak ghoyunlu and Qhara ghoyunlu were closely related to the safavids and they had marriage with themselves: some of the Safavid's ancestors where from these dynasties.  Over all , I think there may be no template at all , but all of the today's countries in the region, like Iran , Iraq , Azerbaijan Republic , Armenia and Turkey need to know about this states for understanding their history .--Alborz Fallah 09:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree on Safavids, they were Turkic dynasty of Iran who built the modern Iranian identity. But Akkoyunlu and Karakoyunlu never associated themselves with modern or contemporary definition of Iran. They were very much Turkic states, in fact Jahan Shah was a Shah of Azerbaijan. So for balance and fairness to all countries on whose territory Akkoyunlu and KArakoyunlu existed, it's better to keep the history without numerous tags. Atabek 01:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no doubt about the difference of that age's perspective toward "national identity" and "state - nationship" comparing to the modern age ideas, but as I know , the Jahan shah- e- qaraquyounlu , was not only a king of Azerbaijan . He was also king of the Khuzestan , Kerman,Fars and Herat. He considered himself as Shahanshan and also wrote many poems in Persian (same as Ismail Safavi), that are more than Turkuman poems of himself....--Alborz Fallah 09:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here in Iranica , there is a good prospect of the matter:QOYUNLUÚ or WHITE SHEEP
--Alborz Fallah 08:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  See also : Seyyed Ali Mua’yyad Sabeti, “Asnaad o Naameh-aayeh Tarikhi az Avael Dorrehaayeh Eslali taa Avakher ‘Ahd Shah Ismail Safavi”(historical sources and letters from the beginning of the Islamic era till the end of the era of Shah Ismail Safavi), Tehran , Ketabkhaayeh Tahoori, 1366.  pages 193, 274, 315, 330, 332, 422 and 430.  See also:Abdul Hussein Navai, Asnaad o Mokatebaat Tarikhi Iran (Historical sources and letters of Iran ), Tehran , Bongaah Tarjomeh and Nashr-e- Ketab, 2536, pages 578,657, 701-702 and 707.سيدعلي مويد ثابتي، اسناد و نامه هاي تاريخي از اوائل دوره‌هاي اسلامي تا اواخر عهدشاه اسماعيل صفوي، تهران، کتابخانه طهوري، 1366، صص 193، 274، 315، 330، 322، 392، 422، 430. نيز ن. ک. به: عبدالحسين نوائي، اسناد و مکاتبات تاريخي ايران، تهران، بنگاه ترجمه و نشرکتاب، 2536، صص 578، 656، 701-702، 707
Which translates as :
--Alborz Fallah 08:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I added your information to the article. Very informative, thanks.Hajji Piruz 16:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Iran tag

message: Instead of tag warring, it's better just to leave Akkoyunlu alone without tags. Obviously most relevant tags here are those of Turkey (where Akkoyunlu state mostly was), Azerbaijan and Iran. But inserting 3-4 tags is impractical and makes the page unreadable. So it's easier to keep it this way. Atabek 07:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just made some fixes. Its not necessary to say "according to Iranica" as Iranica is the most authoritative source regarding the history of the region.Hajji Piruz 23:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Iranica is the most authoritative source on the history of Turkey, Caucasus and Iran? Can you please, provide published proofs for your statement. Atabek 08:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tags

message: Alborz, this has been discussed earlier that Ak Koyunlu dynasty, based also in Anatolia, had equal influence on history of Turkey as it did on history of Azerbaijan and Iran. So there is no need to insert a singular template on history of Greater Iran and start a new round of conflict with templates, which yield the page text unreadable. Please, check the past edit by dbachmann with comment "template clutter". 
I think the template could be discussed if the format of it is changed, to fit the bottom part of the page, just like History of Anatolia template does currently, otherwise, it becomes unreadable.
Thanks. Atabek (talk) 17:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem.I was -wrongly- undoing other one's (an IP) edit.Then I didn't add that tag.My thanks--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why isn't their a History of Greater and Iran aswell as History of the Turks template, wouldn't it be more logical
Torke  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.0.143 (talk) 00:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Templates

message: In the introduction it reads: According to Byzantine chronicles, the Ak Koyunlu were present in eastern Anatolia since at least 1340, and most of their leaders, including the dynasty's founder, Uzun Hassan, married Byzantine princesses. Does this mean that Uzun Hasan was the founder of the dynasty ?  Of course not; the founder of the dynasty was Kara Yülük Osman, Uzun Hasan's grand father. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Founder 

message: Ottoman Turkish: آق قوینلو = Aq Quyunlu, Aq Qoyunlu.
q and k are different but in modern Turkish they are not able to be distinguished. Today text q character is replaced to k (kalın) in present Ottoman language textbooks. But here isn't modern Turkish Wikipedia, I recommend you to use q character. 
Takabeg (talk) 04:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: According to Mehmet Fuat Köprülü (and later it was qouted in the TDV İslâm Ansiklopedisi), Akkoyunlular'da ayrıca Bayındır damgası ()nı taşıyan türlü renklerde bayraklar da vardı. Topkapı Sarayı Müzesinde bulunan bir bayrağın üzerinde Hasan Bahadır ismi bulunmaktadır. (In Aq Qayunlu, there were flags in various colors with the damga of Bayindir. One of these flags that is located in the Topkapi Palace Museum includes the the name of Hasan Bahadur.)Mehmet Fuat Köprülü, Orhan F. Köprülü, İslâm ve Türk Hukuk Tarihi Araştırmaları ve Vakıf Müessesesi, Akçağ Yayınları, 2005, , p. 172. Türkiye Diyanet Vakfı İslâm Ansiklopedisi, Cilt 5, Türkiye Diyanet Vakfı, İslâm Ansiklopedisi Genel Müdürlüğü, 1994, p. 252. . But we cannot see the damga of Bayindir in the flag used in this article. Takabeg (talk) 13:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag

message: The name of the sultanate is Ak Koyunlu . But for some reason which I'm completely unaware of, the article was originally named Aq Qoyunlu. Now it was further renamed as Ag Qoyunlu ? Well Turkish prohibits the letter g at the end of a word. The title should be moved to Ak Koyunlu. I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:54, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - it should be Ak Koyunlu, under wp:commonname if for no other reason. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:52, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

text: My opinion should be as: The Aq Qoyunlu, (, , ; Āq Quyūnlū) also known as the White Sheep Turkomans Beshogur (talk) 00:27, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Google search: "Ak Koyunlu" 34,800 results; "Aq Qoyunlu" 32,500 results. Google Scholar: "Aq Qoyunlu"  718 results; "Ak Koyunlu"  470 results. There is also the variant "Akkoyunlu", but this is impossible to easily assess using Google since it is also a surname. The majority of the "Ak Koyunlu" results are not Turkish-language sources, so an argument to exclude it on "it is just modern Turkish spelling" would be invalid. The results suggests close parity in usage, with "Aq Qoyunlu" on balance slightly ahead. These results would support: The Aq Qoyunlu or Ak Koyunlu, (; Āq Quyūnlū, ) also known as the White Sheep Turkomans. This dual naming also follows the format seen on the Kara Koyunlu article. As for the Turkish and "Azeri" spelling, it would be better to have content explaining that the name means White Sheep in Turkish, and I don't see a reason to include modern Azeri since it is identical in pronunciation to the Turkish and is an alphabet that is only a couple of decades old. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:18, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Undiscussed move: Beshogur unilaterally moved the article title from Aq Qoyunlu to Ağ Qoyunlu . I don't see any grounds for this change; "Ağ Qoyunlu" gets only 19 hits on Google Scholar. . Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:32, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: Regarding 's revert, I'd like him to present WP:RS sources that state that the Ag Qoyunlu spoke Turkish, Azerbaijani and Turkmen, and wrote these languages in the Latin script. Until that time, the reinstatement of this is nothing more than, unfortunately, disruptive editing, and will be dealt with as such accordingly. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:26, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: He just reverted it once again without any source and a load of self-formulated POV as seen right here. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:30, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish, Azerbaijani and Turkmen  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Can Akocsg provide a source for their change of referenced information? The reference and quote clearly state Azerbaijani language, not Oghuz Turkic language.
*"...and dedicated it to the Aqqoyunlu Sultan Yaʿqub (r. 1478-90), who himself wrote poetry in Azeri Turkish." --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:17, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: @Kansas Bear Uh, Azeri Turkish is Oghuz!? Oghuz is just the name for that group of Turkic languages, including Azeri. And since that confederation is mentioned practically everywhere as being Turkmen / Turkoman, I thought that it is logical that they also used the Turkmen language, thus rendering it more plausible to insert Oghuz Turkic, instead of only Azeri Turkish. I didn't think this would become such an issue, since technically both terms are not wrong. Regards, Akocsg (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess you missed the part where we only write what is stated by sources and why would we not mention exactly what the source states? Accordingly the Oghuz languages article states there are numerous sub-branches, generalizing it would be OR. AND, I see no source(s) for Oghuz or Turkmen languages.--Kansas Bear (talk) 19:22, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azerbaijani language 

message: there is no link between Aq Qoyunlu and Kara Koyunlu, because the two have different spellings. please uniformize and link them.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1AE9:186:8400:356B:6EB8:1DC:E494 (talk) 19:30, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  qoyunlu / koyunlu  

message: there is no match with the contents of reference and word of persianate  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.235.92.88 (talk) 18:57, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is now. And FYI(for your information), Persianate is not an ethnicity, but a culture.--Kansas Bear (talk) 22:06, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  mismatch with the source 

message: Why do we need a source for that? They pretty much controlled all of Iraq. Either we remove it completely or add ¨(popular)¨. Beshogur (talk) 15:52, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I would assume since they were Muslims they used Arabic in a religious capacity. And I can add a source that Uzun Hasan translated religious texts from Arabic to Turkish[sic]. Have to do that after work. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  TDV IA says he translated Quran into Turkish. Beshogur (talk) 20:40, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Turkish or Azerbaijani Turkish? The source I found just says "Turkish". So would that be Ottoman Turkish? --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: My humble opinion is that it was most probably some form of transitional Oghuz Turkic spoken in the area corresponding to the present-day Iranian Azerbaijan, with linguistic structures peculiar to Eastern Turkic (perhaps, the legacy from the former homeland of the Oghuz - Central Asia). The best source to support this claim is the Gonbad manuscript of the Kitab-e Dede Qorqut. --VisioncurveTimendi causa est nescire 05:54, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

text:  Türkçe simply means "Turkish", "Turkic" or could mean any other Turkic language.  wasn't Gonbad manuscript written during the Qajar era, which also had Chagatay influence? If anyone wonders how Turkish sounded spoken in Aq Qoyunlu: Choq shükür khudāya ki istädüyimizi bulduq.Minorsky, V. (1939). A Soyūrghāl of Qāsim b. Jahāngir Aq-qoyunlu (903/1498). Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, 9(4), 927-960. doi:10.1017/S0041977X00135062 Honestly, it looks a mix of Azerbaijani and Turkish. It's about the decree of :az:Sultan Qasım, who ruled Diyarbakir. The author also notes on the very striking mixture of Mongol (not to cause confusion, only loanwords), Turkic, Arabic and Persian terms in the letter. Maybe soon I'll try to make a language section for this article. Historians only vaguely use the term Azeri or Turkish.  also found something:  Should this be enough to prove Arabic is also used in their documents alongside Turkish and Persian? Beshogur (talk) 08:51, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

text: This is what the source states in its very first page "The story of the Persian document which forms the subject of the present article is not devoid of romance." Quranic verses in a Islamic society is not something new, and does not imply that Arabic was used for diplomacy, when the source literally says what language the work was in. Sorry, but this is WP:OR. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: And no, I do not agree with the addition to the infobox. It does not make sense, considering the article states that the Aq Qoyunlu ended in 1503. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:18, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Doesn't make sence because the infobox template has a post event section. Mentioning these rump state is worthy. Beshogur (talk) 15:21, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I'm not sure I get your first sentence. Anyways, the source does not even mention that the Aq Qoyunlu ended in 1508 either, but 1501-03, just like vast majority of sources. You essentialy did your first edit, but added it somewhere else in the infobox. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:23, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I meant your comment.  which one?  what do you mean, which edit? Beshogur (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic 

message: Hello, I had done edits to the German Wiki version of this article quite a while ago and would like to apply some of them on the English article.
I suggest changing the structure of the article. Instead of including "Origins" and "Myth" into the "history" chapter, I would dedicate a special chapter for the aforementioned. The table of contents thus would look like this:
1) Origins and Myth
2) History
a) Consolidation of Rule under Qara Osman
b) Rise to Power under Uzun Hasan
c) Stagnation and Downfall
Of course, I'd add all relevant sources, too. Is it possible/allowed that I make such a change?
TengriKhagan (talk) 12:45, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing the structure of this article 

message: Last time you blocked me on wikipedia, but the fact is that Azerbaijan with White Sheep is history. Ag Koyunlular spoke Azerbaijan language.I would make corrections again, but you will delete it again, so I will write it here. and please respect what I write and don't touch! 
In the early Middle Ages, white sheep were spread over a wide area in the South Caucasus, in the area between the Caucasus Mountains and the Araz River, around Goycha Lake, in the Alagoz grasslands, as well as in the southern regions of Azerbaijan, Eastern Anatolia, Western Iran, the Tigris and Euphrates valley
The Aggoyun people belonged to the Bayandur clan of the Oguz. Their names are given as "Bayandur Khan boys" in Turkic-language sources, and "Bayanduriyya" in Persian-language sources The word "Bayandur" in the ancient Turkic language means "a place that is always full of blessings". The name Bayandur comes from Bayandur, the eldest son of Goy Khan, one of the sons of Oghuz Khan. Ag goyunuls considered themselves descendants of Bayandur Khan.
At the time of Hamza Bey, the Bayandur stamp was stamped on Aggoyunlu coins. During the period of Uzun Hasan and his successors, the Bayandur stamp was again printed on coins as a sign of the state. This stamp was also used on the Ag goyunlu flag and inscriptions
Beginning with long Hasan, the Aggoyunlu rulers were masters of science and art.
Uzun Hasan gathered the most advanced scholars of his time in his palace. Up to 60 scholars worked in the ruler's private library.
calligraphy (calligraphy) and miniature painting were among the attention-grabbing areas of Azerbaijani cultural life of this period. In the palace libraries of Aggoyunlu rulers, scientific, artistic, philosophical, religious, and historical works were copied, and miniatures were drawn on their manuscripts. 4 miniature illustrations drawn on the manuscript of poet Hidayat's "Divan" were compiled by Sultan Khalil in 1478. This manuscript copy is in AZERBAİJAN language
During this period, skilled calligraphers such as Mirali Tabrizi, Mirabullah Tabrizi, Suleyman Ali Yaqubi, Nizamuddin Ali Ardabili, Jafar Tabrizi, Azhar Tabrizi, Abdurrahim al-Yaqubi worked in different cities of Azerbaijan.
For a long time, a scientific assembly consisting of prominent scientists of the time was active in Hasan's palace. Uzun Hasan translated the Holy Quran into AZERBAİJAN langugae and wrote an Oghuzname called "Kitabi-Diyarbakriya" to Abu Bakr al-Tehrani, a prominent scientist of the time. Fazlullah ibn Ruzbehan Khunji came to Tabriz in 1487 in Sultan Yaqub's palace and started writing the history of Aggoyunlu stat.
Kitabi Deda Gorgud Dastani, which is believed to have been written during the Ag Goyunlu , is also included in the list of intangible heritage of Azerbaijan by UNESCO.In 1998, the Republic of Azerbaijan and UNESCO nominated, and in 2000 celebrated, the "One thousand three hundredth anniversary of the epic poem Kitab-i Dede Qorqud".
In 1999 the National Bank of Azerbaijan minted gold and silver commemorative coins for the 1,300th anniversary of the epic. The epic culture, folk tales and music of Dede Qorqud has been included in the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity of UNESCO in November 2018. 5.191.24.17 (talk) 12:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the Aq Qoyunlu 

message: This is an extremely incorrect characterization of the Aq Qoyulu political organization. The Kengač was a council that decided on military and successive issues, it was made up of tribal chiefs AND amirs. The current table uses the term for tribal chiefs as if it was a separate military council, this is a hilarious misreading of a citation. I move that this be changed immediately. 2001:1970:5163:1200:0:0:0:7C5D (talk) 03:12, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you elaborate? What do you propose instead? Beshogur (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legislature 

message: Fix typo. History section under Ahmad Beg line 7 from bottom, Change Lahija to Lahijan. 5.125.244.218 (talk) 11:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: . Beshogur (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2023