Talk:List of gothic rock artists

message: Re-added Siiiii now that they have a wikipedia article.  They were a favorite of Mick Mercer, who included them in his Gothic Rock Black Book.209.136.161.135 (talk) 17:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Siiiii 

message: Since it's already established that Evanescence play some type of metal (Nu/alternative/MTV or what have you) I took the liberty of deleting it from the list. 
Kind regards - Rolighetsministern  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolighetsministern (talk • contribs) 13:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sourced, therefore it stays per WP:RS. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:49, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Note to above - do not remove other editors' talk page contributions. As per every other list article, if a reliable source calls them goth, they can be included, and your perosnal opinion is irrelevant. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:29, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Go away, read WP:RS, return to the discussion. It has nothing to do with whether he is "right" or you are "right". It has been reported in a reliable source; the New Musical Express (of which he is a deputy editor) passes the RS criteria so easily I cannot believe you are even questioning it (unless you haven't actually read what "reliability" means on Wikipedia); for the record, the journalist also writes for The Guardian, so his credetials for WP:RS are untouchable. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 19:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

text: It's not up to us to decide whether a source is wrong or not. We report what has been published by reliable sources, and that's all that counts. If you can come up with equally reliable sources that write how some band is clearly not goth, that's fine and you may perhaps add a tag and reference for bands whose style is debated. But as the introduction to this list says: "The definition of gothic rock is debated. All artists listed here are considered gothic rock by reliable sources." So that's what is listed here. De728631 (talk) 12:46, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Go back to working on metal pages [blackmetalbaz], you obviously aren't contributing to this page in a constructive manner. You also seem to be a troll adding bands who are well known to have the mislabeled "goth" tag by mainstream publications, but are in no way related to the genre, just to get a rise out of people on here.De728631 has been mislabeling bands for quite some time 99.54.188.176 (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Copied from my user talk page: "All that matters is what professional critics have written in reliable sources. That is how Wikipedia works. Fan-based likings and what "true goths" may personally think has no place in an encyclopedia unless it has been published on a noteworthy level. Please see also this essay." De728631 (talk) 18:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Er, deleted Evanescence 

message: :This was removed a month ago by an anon, so I'm reposting. - BalthCat (talk) 12:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Having such a list is entirely conntrary to the core Wikipedia policy of WP:RS. If a band has been described as "goth rock" in a reliable source, then its inclusion here is perfectly justified, regardless of other editors' views. Other discussions of consensus are essentially irrelevant, as the consensus was reached as to what WP:RS constitutes. Feel free to take it up there. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:33, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Goth is one of the MOST misunderstood genres in music. Having a "source" describe Evanescence as "Goth" means nothing. There was a consensus as many people understand that the bands on this list, "source" or no, are in no way shape or form Gothic anything. All having a source, in this case, means is that 99% of people claiming to have even a cursory knowledge of Goth are full of crap and misinformed. Hence this consensus. And, with all due respect, you're a self described "metalhead". Your presense in the edit history of a Goth article, much like the Goth scene, is not welcomed. Mind your own genre and kindly ask your genre-mates to bugger out of ours. If I sound uncivil, it is because I am not interested in the opinion of a metalhead. Especially where Goth is concerned. Stay out of our genre, headbanger, and take your Evanescence and Marilyn Manson with you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.237.65 (talk) 06:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You seriously need to go and (re?)read WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:V (you know, our core policies), not to mention WP:CIVIL]. This is quite aside from the fact that you bizarrely seem to be under the impression that one cannot like more than one kind of music. Regardless, I may well not personally regard Evanescence as a "goth band", but it is undeniable that they are regarded as such by a proportion of the music press, and that is what we use for sourcing articles - not fan opinion, which is by definition breaking WP:NPOV. Whilst these bands are sourced in reliable sources (remember Wikipedia deals in verifiability, not "truth" as you may see it), they remain on the list. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:28, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

text: In fact, they do not. WP:CIVIL] aside. There was and has been consensus. That and the dit history should tell you something. Records companies are not reliable sources as they deal in sales, not truth. Again, seek consensus before adding non-goth bands to this list.Klarion L-7 (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That is second removal of sourced material. The sources cited are not record companies, but professional journalists, whose opinions we use for sourcing genres. Nobody else, just professional journalists, preferably in print where possible, but in the absence of that we can use Allmusic biogs (although not the style bar). Consensus about using reliable sources for articles is as long-standing as WP:RS is. Anon above (which may or may not be you) has already stated that 99% of people disagree with your version of the "truth" (goth purists are remarkably similar to metal purists in this sense), which would surely make your point a minority one, that can be safely ignored (in the absence of contradictory sources). Goth bands are goth bands if they have have been described as such by the music press, not because purists say they are; ditto with metal bands. It's not like there is a universal arbiter of any given musical genre. I repeat: do not remove sourced content, simply because you disagree with the journalists in question; Wikipedia works on verifiabilty, not "truth". Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Trying to add Evanescence, The Doors and Interpol to this list will ultimately result in it being scuttled as useless.  If that is your goal, please state it openly, and argue the merits of scuttling this list as undefinable, rather than engaging in a game.  -BalthCat (talk) 23:55, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

text: The list is not contrary to any other rules, as it is not a permission list.  It is a list meant to encourage people who may not understand the core nature to recheck its purpose, and past discussion about select artists who have already been discussed.  The entire reason the text was put up for analysis was so that it could be presented as such, not as law.  I don't think it is at all unreasonable for editors to say "We've already been over topic X, so provide a source and explain your rationale before adding topic X to the article."  - BalthCat (talk) 23:55, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The list may not be contrary to the rules, but it's true that goth is a missunderstood genre, "gothic" is an adjective and in many cases when a journalist says a band like Marylin Manson or HIM is "gothic rock" its not because they are actually gothic rock its because it is rock music that has a gothic image or gothic influences, its kinda confusing sometimes. there are alot of bands that i dont know of on that list,.... however, Craddle of Filth, The 69 Eyes, Nightwish, Evanescence, HIM, Within Temptation, Lacuna Coil, and Type O Negative are listed and mentioned on the Gothic metal page, with Ev, HIM, LC, and WT having sections to themselves, so they really have no place on the gothic rock bands list, however the denial of The Birthday Massacre puzzles me, to me it sounds pretty goth rock, if anyone could explain to me how Massacre isnt goth rock id appreciate it 24.227.9.114 (talk) 22:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not up to us to define the genre of a band, we are limited to skimming the sources. And if one reliable source says that a band plays metal and another equally reliable source says they play rock then it may be just that and we should reflect it, adding them to both lists – because a lot of bands aren't just limited to one genre. Bands also keep evolving over time and what once started as rock may have turned harder while bands like Covenant, Samael or Cryptic Carnage have reportedly taken the other path, going from black metal to dark rock. WP:RS is all that counts. De728631 (talk) 20:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Heavy metal is also a subgenre of rock, and gothic metal has gothic rock as an origin, so is it really that inaccurate to label goth metal bands as goth rock? They kind of are gothic rock just by the nature of their stylistic ethnicity.--¿3family6 contribs 01:55, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested editnote

message: I've heard it said sometimes that Depeche Mode is a gothic band, or has influenced the gothic music movement.  Should they be added?  They sound similar to, for example, the Cure, which is added.  I'll see if I can find a reliable source for it.  71.192.90.255 (talk) 21:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Should not be added. Pop or New Wave but not gothic. If source calls them goth then source is not reliable.WJKovacs (talk) 20:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, just read this... nonsense. If the source passes WP:RS, it is reliable. Sources do not pass reliability if they agree with your POV! Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Depeche Mode

message: Mick Mercer, author, noted music journalist, and world's leading historian of Goth music stated, of Kimveer Gill, that he was "not a Goth. Never a Goth. The bands he listed as his chosen form of ear-bashing were relentlessly metal and standard grunge, rock and goth metal, with some industrial presence.", "Kimveer Gill listened to metal." "He had nothing whatsoever to do with Goth," and further commented "I realise that like many Neos this idiot may even have believed he somehow was a Goth, because they're only really noted for spectacularly missing the point." Mercer emphasized that he was not blaming heavy metal music for Gill's actions and added "It doesn't matter actually what music he liked."
This absolutely suggests that misinformation is widespread. None of the bands that keep getting added are Goth. Sources are flawed and not always 100% accurate. The revert history and consensus should tell you something. Please do not add non-Gothic bands to this list. Seek consesnsus again before readding.Klarion L-7 (talk) 20:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You make a grave error in the understanding of WP:RS. Mick Mercer may well say one thing, but he is not the sole authority to which we kow-tow when it comes to genrification. We, of course, have similar purist arguments on other lists as to whether, say, System of a Down or Led Zeppelin qualify as heavy metal. I'm sure it's great forum fodder, but there's no place on Wikipedia for someone stating "this is the one truth" about something so massively subjective. There is no "true goth". It's a journalistic term that has been applied to bands from the Doors to Marilyn Manson, and that usage should be reflected in any list article. I'm sure there are similar No True Scotsman arguments about whether Green Day are a punk band, but this is not the place for them. The best you can hope for is a disclaimer in the lede stating that "this is a list of bands that have been described as goth by professional journalists", which is exactly how we dealt with it on the metal lists. At the minute, you are removing bands exclusively based on your own POV without justification using the sources you would need. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not seeing discussion here, just genre warring. "Please cite sources which describe the artists are notable examples" - NOTABLE, let alone "examples". These bands are not goth. Period. Not even close. I will not see wikipedia become a worse example of misinformation based on your POV. And Mercer IS an expert on Goth. A notable one. Metal, and whatever the Doors are, is not goth and does not belong in list. Again, seek consensus before re-adding or this will go to notice boards. Klarion L-7 (talk) 22:07, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I strongly suggest you do take this to a noticeboard, as I am not getting into a WP:3RR situation. I should point out that you have misunderstood another core policy in the above - WP:N. However, let's leave it to the admins; I'd appreciate it if you could point me towards the relevant noticeboard when you've posted there. Cheers, Blackmetalbaz (talk) 05:12, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Mick Mercer may well say one thing, but he is not the sole authority to which we kow-tow when it comes to genrification No, but he IS an expert and you are not. So we will "kow-tow" to him long before we kow-tow to you. You ignore a source disproving your POV and readily accept those that support your POV which, of course, is a tell tail sign of a genre warrior. 
There is no "true goth". It's a journalistic term that has been applied to bands from the Doors to Marilyn Manson - check your sources, you're wrong again. There are books by anyone from Mercer to Voltaire who, again, are reliable sources and, again, you are not. There is a goth culture, scene and genre regardless of (once again) your POV. Lacking insight or feeling exlcuded does not give you the right to make such outlandih claims that they do not exist or are simple "media terms". Decades of goth nights, concerts, WGW, local/global communities exist and have for many years. Your inability to understand that or weasel word/cheap shot the scene by calling it nothing more than a "journalistic term" suggests that you are unwilling to listen to reason, check reliable sources that disprove your POV and you are certainly not willing to seek or adhere to consensus. Hence, this is nothing more than POV and genre warring on your part and there is no place for that on wikipedia. Klarion L-7 (talk) 22:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Recommended reading
http://sortedmagazine.com/archive/magazine/sordid/tmitg.htm "Marilyn Manson is not Goth. End of story. Too bad the media had to decide he was. There's so much better music out there." 
http://www.gothicsubculture.com/articles/blame.php "Marilyn Manson is not Goth; Marilyn Manson is a rock group. People want to hear things to the contrary, they want to be fed the sensationalism," 
http://www.projekt.com/newsarticles/6675.htm Although a diverse group, Goths are united in a crusade to tell the mainstream world that Marilyn Manson is not a Goth. 
http://www.last.fm/tag/not+goth
 That tell you anything about some of these so-called "goth" bands?
Klarion L-7 (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Post Scriptum
RE: Amy Lee - Their first "official" website was entitled We're not goth., Evanescence said once in an interview, that their sort of music is "Dark Epic Rock"., There is also an MTV intervieww where they say the band isn't Goth.
The band themselves say they're not. Goths say they're not. So, if Manson and Lee aren't Goth but they have managed to convince a couple of generations they were in order to sell records during the time when it was trendy to call one's self Goth (but have no knowledge of the scene, it's history, it's physcological ancestory or the music) then what does that say of the bands that sound just like them and are often rejected from this list? Your ego aside, is it possible that you are one of these people who were duped into thinking that there was some connection between Goth and bands like Manson, Eveblahblahblah, Cradle of Valentine Chamber etc. during an era when uninformed kinderbats were utterly convinced of their goth-dom and now you can't admit to being mislead for the sake of your ego? Stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you're rejecting any and all sources that state "metal bands are not and will never be goth (in much the same way some ebm/industrial fans are convinced that their prefered form of german r2d2 audio-rape is somehow goth, too) and opting only to list "sources" that claim metal/shock rock and goth are the same thing because, due to mass information and sensationalism, these "sources" are readily available. Nevermind that no actual expert will agree with this. It just seems that too many 'zines are willing to pat you on the head and say "sure, you're a Goth, little Timmy!". After all, sensationalism sells and who (besides an entire culture of people) will it hurt to tell you that you're uber-goth for listening to some watered down pseudo-industrial dip like Trent Reznor?Klarion L-7 (talk) 23:27, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supposed "sources" 

message: Sorry, what are the citations in the lead supposed to be sourcing? I don't see how "this is a list of gothic rock bands" is a statement that needs reliable sourcing, because I don't know how it could (unless a source says "Wikipedia has a list of gothic rock bands.") Can this be clarified?--¿3family6 contribs 01:49, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purpose of citations in lede? 

message: I can't believe there is still a discussion about this. METAL is METAL. NOT gothic rock. HOW HARD IS THAT FACT TO GRASP FOR SOME? It does NOT matter A SHIT if a journalist wrongfully calls Evanescence a "gothic rock" band. They ARE NOT. They DO NOT SOUND like gothic rock, their music is NOT ENJOYED by goths.
If this list is meant to show forefigures of the gothic rock movement, then metal acts should not be listed. HOW HARD CAN THIS BE TO GRASP? Rolighetsministern (talk) 01:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, please don't write in ALLCAPS, that's considered shouting and it doesn't support your arguments. And I fear you don't know how Wikipedia works. We don't write about our personal experience or what others might like or not. We write what has been reported elsewhere, and only that. If one or more reliable sources (yes, that includes journalists) write that something is of type A then we'll reflect that. Our personal opinion about genres is totally irrelevant. Please see also WP:TRUE. De728631 (talk) 01:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am outraged, hence the caps. This is just SO stupid. SO incredibly idiotic. Would you put Cradle Of Filth amongst the List of punk bands because they have a cover of a Misfits song? NO, of course you wouldn't. You wouldn't even if there was a source saying that "Cradle Of Filth turns punk rock when covering the Misfits". Why? Because THEY SIMPLY are NOT a punk rock band. They don't play at punk rock venues, and they're not generally enjoyed by the punk rock crowd. Same goes for Evanescence: They DO NOT play at gothic rock venues, they ARE NOT enjoyed generally by the goth crows (they are much more enjoyed by the metal crowd). They simply ARE NOT a gothic rock act, yet they appear at the "List of gothic rock bands" on the Wikipedia. A source claiming that Evanescence is a gothic rock band is simply not a reliable source, since the information is direclty false. Rolighetsministern (talk) 01:38, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Then what about presenting one or more reliable sources that say how Evanescence et al. are actually not gothic rock? That would actually help in this case, but currently your rant is unfortunately totally baseless when it comes to improving this encyclopedia. Just because you have experienced something it may not be representative at all. Original research cannot be considered at Wikipedia. De728631 (talk) 01:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  That would be, for me, like debating a creationist when they say "Show me proof that God does not excist". I simply will not enduldge in it, out of intellectual honesty.
However, we can have a look at one of their live appearences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEpqxlN61Ag
Obviously, there is no gothic rocking going on in this live appearence. It is undeniably a metal show, the muscicians are undeniably metal heads, they undeniably riff like a metal band and they undeniably pose with their guitars like metal heads. You don't have to be a journalist to see this, you only need to be able to know the difference between what gothic rock sounds like and what metal sounds like. A source claiming that Evanescence is a gothic rock act is, really, not a realiable source. Rolighetsministern (talk) 02:16, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

text: To make another example: Would it be OK for me to add Black Sabbath (the heavy metal band...) to the "List of British blues muscicians" "Band section"? 
I got this reliable source claiming they are a blues band http://www.spin.com/articles/black-sabbath-13-blues-video-behind-the-scenes/ 
It would completely be OK, right? Did you get the point which I'm trying to make?
Rolighetsministern (talk) 02:42, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

text: If Ozzy did a blues album you might add him to the list of blues musicians including a reliable source (and Spine seems to do that job). As to the youtube video: you're still judging from your own observation. De728631 (talk) 12:31, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You obviously missed the point. How about the Avril Lavigne example again? You think it would be appropriate to add them to the "List of punk bands" because they are called "punk" by some journalists? Is that REALLY the only thing that matters? 
WHY would it not matter that several goths have raised their voices on this talk page demanding that metal bands are crossed off the list? Don't you think that goths know better what bands are goths and not? Really! Rolighetsministern (talk) 13:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are still missing the point. Sources are really all that matters when it comes to writing Wikipedia articles. One's point of view does not matter at all. Wikipedia articles are not about our own thoughts and experience. It's as simple as that. The Pistols and Avril Lavigne may be worlds apart but if reliable sources attribute the punk rock label to Avril then so be it. De728631 (talk) 13:22, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

text:  And a source claiming that Evanescence is a gothic rock band is NOT a reliable source. Simply because the information is not a par with reality. Rolighetsministern (talk) 13:54, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean that a source is unreliable. If you think that MusicMight and IGN are not reliable you might want to take them to the Reliable sources noticeboard. De728631 (talk) 14:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Rolighetsministern, please, before you write anymore and turn this into one massive TL:DR, go and read Wikipedia's core policies... WP:V (which explains that WP is concerned with verifiability, not perceived "truth" based on any editor's opinion or "experience of the scene"; all genre lists are contentious, partially because editors falsely believe that genre labels are a matter of cast-in-stone "truth", rather than what they are - journalistic labels) and WP:RS (which explains why the sources used in this list are being used, passing this requirement for reliability - WP reliability, not the personal opinions of editors). There is long-standing consensus on this issue across the rock lists, which is not likely to be overthrown, and certainly not in the manner you are approaching things. Coming up with endless examples you feel other editors would become "outraged" about is unhelpful; if you find reliable sources saying, say, Sabbath are a blues band, please add them to the relevant list. *That* is the way things work around here, not edit warring and shouting on the talk page. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:27, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll be short and to the point: What Baz says. Also, what De728631 says. I noted that you have a warning for edit warring on your talk page. Drmies (talk) 20:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Rolighetsministern, give up. The page has been destroyed by ill-informed metalhead tag team partners. This page is widely regarded as useless these days by the Gothic community. Edit the page, they stomp and huff and somebody blocks you. Just skip it. Nobody cares about wikipedia anymore anyway. 71.79.242.42 (talk) 05:46, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

text: You don't seem to be aware of how Wikipedia works. Experts in the sense of an encyclopedia are not the members of a self-defined group but writers published by reliable sources. It does not matter at all what either you or I think about the genre of this or any other band. All that matters is what has been published elsewhere by established experts – which is why we do not use random blogs or fansites as references. Please note also the lead section of the article that says how this is a list of artists "that have been described as gothic rock by reliable sources." It's not a list of bands that editors describe as goth rock or metal or what have you and it is likewise not a list of bands preferred by "the Gothic Rock community" – whoever that may be by your personal standards. As to metal vs. "goth", "Gothic metal" also has become an established term in published sources, and we do have a separate List of gothic metal bands where such artists should be listed. But it is also a common fact that bands are not confined to stereotypical genres but may play two or more types of music at the same time. So while Mandragora Scream are possibly mainly metal-oriented nowadays, the album this particular source is reviewing has been described as goth rock by more than one writer (the one you kept removing and Eck). Just because you don't like them, these reviews need not be irrelevant or unreliable. Last but not least, it has been mentioned before on this page but the names of genres like "rock", "metal", "gothic rock" etc. have initially been coined by journalists and writers, and that is the definition Wikipedia follows. De728631 (talk) 19:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: What is "Eck"? I'm well aware of how wikipedia works. I'm also aware that some people behave like children on here and get away with it because they've learned to manipulate the rules in their favor. Again, source does not equal expert. As I pointed out. And being a metal band automatically disqualifies a band from being Goth. They are two opposed genres. You revert because you like these bands. I revert because someone adds them simply because they want them to be Goth and they're not. As I stated you can find a source that claims a tomato is a dinosaur if you look hard enough. This has a lo t more to do with your personal standards than it does mine. And I am aware that some group of bands thought it would be cute to start calling their music "Gothic metal" and it stuck. It doesn't make their music Goth. I understand that banging one's head repeatedly can cause concussion like symptoms so there's really no accounting for the logic behind this besides chalking it up to brain damage. Which I could probably source and stuff into the article if I really wanted to. But I'm not going to act like a spoiled 3 year old on wikipedia. Listen more, talk less and you might learn something.184.57.1.114 (talk) 20:34, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It might surprise you but I don't even know a single song of Mandragora Scream for that matter, nor am I insterested in most of the bands in this list that keep being decried of playing metal. Markus Eck, however, is the guy who wrote the review I added. But what makes you an expert about Gothic rock then? Have you had any articles published in a magazine or paper? Do you write reviews? Your remark about headbanging just shows that you seem to despise metal and metalheads (I'm not even one of those nor could I be classified as Goth either). Instead I revert edits that may contradict Wikipedia's standards, plain and simple as that. Anyhow, if you have reliable sources about any Goth rock acts that are missing so far, please check if there's a Wikipedia article about them and then feel free to add them to the list. On the other hand, I already noted it in my edit summary that you're welcome to question the reliability of the Sonic Seducer (disclaimer for the record: I am not affiliated with this magazine or its authors) and open a thread at WP:RSN. De728631 (talk) 20:53, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Genre

message: I know this has been discussed before, but should The Doors really be listed here? The Gothic rock article defines the genre as a late-70s offshoot of post punk and alternative rock. That is not at all the style or era of The Doors. Yes, that is when the term "gothic rock" was first used, but that writer wasn't describing the style as defined on Wikipedia. The article itself explains this.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:19, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently the list is defined as artists that have been labeled gothic rock by reliable sources – independent of any era or one's definition of the style. And the gothic rock article also mentions Stickney's 1967 review, so I think we should keep it here. Otherwise we'd have to rethink the inclusion criteria for the entire list, which would come close to original research if you ask me. De728631 (talk) 19:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My contention is that the list is in conflict with the article, so either the article should be re-written, or the criteria of this list be examined. I don't see any reason to challenge most of the entries on this list just because The Doors are removed - The Doors predate Gothic as a genre. The article never claims that they were Gothic rock according to the article's definition, but that the term was first used to describe The Doors, the subsequently used to describe 70s groups such as The Cure, which had a very different sound but owed some influence to The Doors. Artists like Marilyn Manson and Evanescence are different cases all together, as they emerged after the term "Gothic rock" referred to a specific style, a style that the artists in question are influenced by. The article explains how Gothic rock expanded in scope, so there's no conflict in listing these artists.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:58, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we should then expand the article. This source from the list states explicitely that "Gothic Rock began with The Doors" (p. 240). Obviously this is a minority position among reviewers, scholars and, of course, fans, but we should mention it nevertheless. De728631 (talk) 17:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. If this was expanded upon in the article, and mentioned here in the lead for the list, then it should help this slow-burning edit war.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:36, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright. I added an explanation to the article . Would you mind to take care of the lead for the list? De728631 (talk) 21:03, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I think this about sums it up. (For the sake of attribution: said diff uses content from the Gothic rock article.) De728631 (talk) 20:06, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Doors 

message: I have added the Cocteau Twins onto the list. Between 1982-1987 the Cocteau Twins took part in, and some arguably say helped to create, the ethereal wave movement, which is defined by Wikipedia as an outgrowth of Gothic Rock. Gothic Rock is an umbrella term and no one can definitively say who is in and who is out. The music of Joy Division and The Cure is disparate when compared to bands like Alien Sex Fiend, and Sex Gang Children, which is again completely different than The Sisters of Mercy and The Mission UK.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randispaul (talk • contribs) 07:16, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Cocteau Twins 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on List of gothic rock artists. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.nme.com/originals/4
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20041126204333/http://www.mtv.com:80/news/articles/1434098/19970627/sisters_of_mercy.jhtml to http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1434098/19970627/sisters_of_mercy.jhtml
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why is Aphex Twin on this list? The source given is Aphex Twin's Wikipedia article, which does not anywhere describe Aphex Twin as goth. Can't find any other sources describing him as goth either. 82.41.96.23 (talk) 13:54, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I have removed the entry because this edit was nonsense. De728631 (talk) 21:49, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aphex Twin? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of gothic rock artists. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.ocweekly.com/music/previews/gothic-rocks-not-so-dead/25454/
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*Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/67H5pxD97?url=http://www.musicmight.com/artist/poland/closterkeller to http://www.musicmight.com/artist/poland/closterkeller
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Should Alice cooper be added to this list? He doesn't exclusively do goth but i would argue that cold ethyl, ballad of Dwight fry and Steven are quite Gothic. Original 2 (talk) 21:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No. 46.193.231.34 (talk) 08:38, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alice cooper? 

message: Just pure garbage that this article keeps being trolled by clueless metal fans. 90.238.90.221 (talk) 01:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is trash.