Talk:Deus vult

message: There is already some discussion about this on Talk:First Crusade. This article originally said It means "God wills it" in Lingua Franca, an international language (similar to some degree to the modern Interlingua) of Western Europe. "Deus" is Latin for God. "Lo" is Italian for "it." "Volt" is third person singular for the Medieval French verb Voler - to will, wish, desire, want. That's pretty strange, to say the least. 
The phrase appears variously as deus vult, dieu le veut, deus lo volt, etc etc...and even though every book about the crusades mentions it in one form or another, no one ever says where it comes from. It might be bordering on original research to try to figure it out, but I think it is impossible to claim it was "deus lo volt" or anything else in the vernacular. The only sources for it (that I can find so far) are in Latin, and only Robert the Monk seems to mention it at all. The Pope and the audience were probably not speaking Latin, nor were the crusaders on the crusade itself, but we don't really know what they would have said or how they would have spelled it in their own languages (11th century forms of French, Occitan, and Italian were hardly standardized). Adam Bishop 22:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all good info that should be part of the article, we can just say "it is unknown" to avoid original research. I was going to say this should probably be moved to wiktionary, but given the uncertainty of it, probably could justify its own article here. -- Stbalbach 22:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Research libraries might have the AHR that far back; it's on JSTOR anyway. It's still a pretty decent article despite it's age. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More info

message: --CopyToWiktionaryBot 05:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007-02-1 Automated pywikipediabot message 

message: Benjamin (talk) 00:41, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a comment? AnonMoos (talk) 17:56, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Popular Culture  

message: There are reliable sources that describe how this phrase has been co-opted by the Alt-right. While some claim WP:RECENTISM others seem to think this usage is beneath Wikipedia's mention.
According to Press reports, this phrase was occasionally used as a code-word on social media by adherents of the alt-Right movement during the mid-2010s and was among phrases spray-painted onto the walls of two Mosques in an act of vandalism.
This is a single, well-sourced sentence so I don't think there's undue coverage. While I agree contemporaneous accounts are RECENTISM, that didn't stop full articles like Humayun Khan (soldier) and Khizr and Ghazala Khan from surviving AfD. This single sentence is why most readers will likely look for this article. I'm seeking consensus to include this material. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're confused. Those three links are the "reliable sources." What I think you meant to say is that HuffPo, WaPo, and Portland Press Herald are writing articles based on what they read at KYM and that's gutter journalism. I agree. Wikipedia's issue is covering topics of interest and sticking to the faith we put in so-called journalists. If the newspapers, magazines, TV shows, and books we use as sources are themselves compromised by poor editorial decisions then our material must necessarily reflect that. Wikipedia has neither professional writers nor an editorial staff so we write based on the outlets that do. My issue with you is your accusation of bias. How exactly, would you propose we change the article? Just cut that sentence out? Why? Do you think mentioning the alt-right is verboten? What  is being served by including the sentence? My guess is the fact that it mentions a political topic you think somehow criticizes those that use the phrase is problematic so you'd rather sidestep the issue. If you have a real suggestion as to the problem and its solution then feel free to discuss. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:29, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In adding the Alt Right part it makes it seem as if its use today is mostly by the Alt Right and that its the Alt Right that are making the memes, which isn't true. The Alt Rights Aboption of the meme isn't as notable as the meme itself, yet its not mentioned to be just a meme, its mentioned to be a alt right meme which is untrue, its merely been used by people who are potentially Alt Right Having the only part of the article that talks about the phase's use as a meme (which is a large part of why the phase is even in use today which isn't reflected in the article) instead talk about the alt right is disingenuous and shoe horned agenda pushing. Personally I think the whole part about the Alt Right should be removed or at least the sentence be reworded to show that its not an "alt right meme". 82.16.107.140 (talk) 01:07, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what the sources say. No one is writing this stuff to push an agenda. If you don't like those sources, find better ones. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:20, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  alt-right 

message: Just want to make a note here on the wording of a sentence in this article.
The original wording "this phrase was occasionally used as a code-word on social media by adherents of the alt-right movement during the mid-2010s" just sounds completely wrong, as we are currently still in the mid-2010s. It sounds like the writer is pretending to write from the perspective of the future, something which is of course impossible. I don't know where user Exemplo347 got the idea that this is correct usage, but I have never seen this anywhere on WP in the 10+ years I have been reading and editing the site. This is why I changed it.
If my alternate wording still isn't acceptable, perhaps we could use the progressive perfect as a compromise?
 "this phrase has been occasionally used as a code-word on social media by adherents of the alt-right movement since the mid-2010s "
I think this would convey the sense of temporal detachment while avoiding the writer-from-the-future thing.
--2.218.112.149 (talk) 22:07, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah this gets back to Bill Clinton asking about what the definition of "is" is. If "is" means "it was and continues to be" then I can understand shooting for the past tense since we don't know how long it continues. That said, we're still really close to the time specified; it can be changed at some point in the future in your suggested compromise. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:25, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  notes on tense usage 

message: I doubt the "21st century usage" stands alone. The quote attributed to Alfred Thayer Mahan shows that the phrase has a modern history of proponents of just war from a Christian perspective. The "Internet meme" thing does the same, and should, if at all, be treated from this perspective. 
The problem with the "Internet meme" is that it is partly ironic, and that the very nature of "trolling" implies that the reader is not supposed to be aware of the irony. Nothing of this internet stuff can be taken at face value in any reasonable coverage of the meaning of the phrase in the context of just war. 
But I am sure if actual publications by actual, identifiable authors are consulted instead, we will find a wealth of references to the phrase in the 20th century which consider the phrase seriously. This might also lead to a better understanding of its current usage. "Better" compared to the current approach of perusal of google hits from huffingtonpost covering "memes" the past 12 months or so.
The drawback of the approach I have outlined is that it will take work, and somebody interested in improving this article would have to spend a few hours on researching it. --dab (𒁳) 20:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Here I found a 2014 article which uses the phrase seriously, in the context of the rise of jihadism and ISIS, by a (Catholic) author who signs with his own name,  John L. Ubel. This reference alone is worth more than the current state of the "21st century" coverage. The topic of jihadism, and the calls or attempts to defeat jihadims, is quite serious, and citing "alt-right" and "4chan" vs. "huffington post" as representing the "21st century" is not just lazy, it is also needlessly disparaging to our century. --dab (𒁳) 20:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

text: Unfortunate as it may be, the term is used by white nationalists and the alt-right. To omit this usage would mean the article provides incomplete coverage. I think the article gives reasonable weight to the historic use and the more recent use (misuse? usurpation?) of the phrase. —C.Fred (talk) 19:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern usage

message: Why was this moved to the less-correct "Deus lo vult"? Certainly that variant should be mentioned in the article but the title should be "Deus vult". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: "Deus lo vult" is a strangely hybrid form ("Deus" and "vult" are Latin words, while "lo" is indeterminate medieval Romance), but that form was apparently used during part of the middle ages... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently, although it's a bit difficult to find out who used it, and when. It's hard to find where "deus vult" was first attributed to the crusaders too, actually; but I would still say "deus vult" is still the earlier and more correct phrasing. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move back to Deus vult 

message: A whole paragraph - roughly 10 percent of this article- entirely relies on AND mentions in text an obscure blog (oilab.eu). Is this blog considered a reliable source?  I'd argue WP:IRS states the opposite, and since oilab is obscure even for a blog (it doesn't carry an imprint and doesn't name a responsible editor or publisher) it should not be quoted and should even less be named in the article text). Based on that I suggest to delete this paragraph from the article. Wefa (talk) 20:15, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I just removed it. If this content were backed by reliable mainstream sources, it would be worthy of inclusion, but that is not the case. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 05:24, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  is an obscure blog a reliable source? 

message: Despite the citation in the lead paragraph of this wiki entry, the phrase "Deus vult" does not appear in the Latin Vulgate.  This fact is easy to verify.  Someone should correct it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.47.52.130 (talk) 15:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Deus Vult" is NOT in the Vulgate.   

message: Rather than edit war, please discuss. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Nathan is actually technically correct (the best kind of correct), because the sources he's deleting do kind of suck. I can think of a bunch of academic work being written on this subject that would be more appropriate to cite here, although I'm not sure any of it has been published yet... Adam Bishop (talk) 11:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  modern usage 

message: Hi . I think the dubious tag you added, to  As far as I can tell, the denouncement by scholars was focused on the co-opting of medieval symbols/slogans in general, not "deus vult" in particular. I tried to rewrite the sentence to make that clear. Does that resolve your concern? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that right-wing movements invoke the medieval imaginary in general, and that of the Crusades in particular, is indisputable. What's much more questionable is the second part of the sentence, after the comma. It's not clear what this "nostalgic vision" is, and consequently how it could be wrong (is it simply a matter of saying that in medieval Europe there were lots of white people and lots of Christians?), and the source articles are weak. As far as I'm concerned, this second part should be deleted, or we should be much more specific about the vision to be refuted - but it doesn't seem important enough to me. Ellbekarym (talk) 19:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the "nostalgic view" as being that there was a "'pure' white European heritage". That is the view that is challenged by the cited sources. If your issue is one of source reliability, would you consider switching to a different tag? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that: what does it mean that there is a pure Europe? The view that's supposed to be wrong isn't defined, and again the sources don't mention it (they just say that there are currently many non-white Christians on the one hand, and that there were Jews and Muslims in medieval Europe on the other). So my problem is that we don't understand what it's about and the sources provided are useless. Ellbekarym (talk) 14:32, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not "pure Europe", but "pure white Europe". The sources talking about non-white Europeans are providing evidence against the existence of such a thing. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the sources give absolutely none. The first merely states that the demographics of the Catholic Church today are very diverse - which is true, but off-topic - the second that medieval Europe was not 100% Christian, but that there were Muslims and Jews... That's why I'm asking for an explanation of what is meant by "pure white Europe" ( I understood correctly): if it's a question of saying that all Europeans of the past, without exception, were white or Christian, then yes, the second source contradicts it, but I don't think anyone is claiming that. Ellbekarym (talk) 14:19, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

text: The idea that there were white people in medieval Europe would be a novel one, the concept is generally not believed to have existed at the time but to evolve slightly later. It is that very use of modern ideas to re-order the past which the sources take issue with. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It wouldn't be novel that there were White people in Europe, there are White people in Europe today, most will be able to trace their ancestry back to the Medieval era. They may not have identified themselves as part of some grand overarching White race but they were what we would today consider White. Outside of border regions like Iberia and Italy, Western Europe was by and large majority White in the era. Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 01:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious tag