Talk:Bay (horse)

message: As I said, the Connemara people (Brits in general) notoriously call buckskin "dun". I'm not saying there aren't any duns. I'm just saying that buckskin OR dun, they call it the same thing. Kinda like the Fjord people. I first noticed lighter eyes in a buckskin at my barn. Have a look.
I agree that the phenotypes cross over and without having a better look at the horses in person, or a better authority, you and I won't know. So I suppose we can just let it go at that. I'm willing to stake a lot on the horse in the sooty article being buckskin; I will continue to look for a less contentious photograph but he does illustrate sooty beautifully. He has only countershading, not a distinct dorsal stripe. I'm also browsing for a photo that shows a sooty dun's dorsal stripe to see if perhaps one might be able to see a dorsal stripe WITHIN a sooty area, or not.
Speaking of dun, I just saw that Nancy Castle wrote an article with a SUPER cool theory: 
Don't even get me started on whoever is responsible for that purebred stallion being marketed as "palomino".
Yes, MATP is where creme was mapped to. 
I'm not surprised; I put the photos in about an hour after my original edit, so I'm not that offended by what may have just been server lag or need to refresh.
As to wild bay...here is a link to an accessible part of Sponenberg's book where he discusses it. Hope it works! 
Agreed that photo is unattractive, but it does illustrate the color. Try a google image search. 
I did some research into mutations on the mouse agouti gene. Agouti is HIGHLY conserved, by the bye. It seems that there are over 25 identified separate mutations on their agouti gene, each changing the way agouti works or is expressed. (Speculation-switch On!) One of the funny things about it seems to be that it "knows" where it is in the body. That's related to regulation of the gene in the embryo. It orients from the top-down, because mice (and other animals) are usually dark above and light on the underside. Mutations in agouti in mice can change where the body decides "underside" begins. In the black-and-tan mice, the identity of "underside" is restricted to the armpits, groin, and muzzle. The way I understand it, the theories about agouti in horses are based on this behavior. "Normally", agouti switches off about the knee and hock. I could see sooty being on the agouti gene, though sooty palominos would be hard to explain without ANOTHER type of agouti. But the fact that some types of sooty orient from the top-down suggests that agouti switched off at an unusual place. Imagine wild bay as keeping agouti switched on all the way down to the fetlocks. I could be totally off-base but I rather doubt it, to be honest. 
I put "normally" in quotes because of wild bay. If you look at photos of Przewalski's horses, they too have some variation in color. These guys  would be described as bay duns with pangare. Check out how high their points go. Now these  are also bay duns with pangare, but their points are MUCH lower. Since both groups are bay dun with pangare, it seems unlikely that the variation in point restriction is related to either of those traits. Agouti seems a likely candidate.
As far as a dorsal stripe or neck cape being an undeniable mark of a dun, please refer to the purebred Arabian filly in the second photo. 
That is, I believe, the source of the theories about agouti.
Countercanter (talk) 19:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Much food for thought.  Will chew.  There is an article on sooty here in wiki?  Where?  Yep, I also have issues with any flaxen chestnut purebred Arab being marketed as a "palomino."  However, apparently there are two "Palomino" registries, and one has far looser rules than the other... Indeed, don't get me started, either!  More later after time to digest all of the above. Montanabw(talk) 09:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flipping the speculation switch... 

message: A test for seal brown is now available from the researcher I mentioned before. I, or someone, will have to get around to reworking this article and others to reflect that seal brown =/= dark bay.Countercanter (talk) 01:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this the discovery of the famous "sooty" gene?  Or something else?  Do you have a link to an online source?  Or maybe enough bibliographic info that I can search for it on a couple of paid databases that I can currently access?  (Am teaching at a community college this semester, they have an uplink to the Mother Ship at the big State U)   If I can read it, I can try to work on it if you want to devote your energies to the LWS article.  Or not... Montanabw(talk) 03:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is the lab that offers the test. No, it is not sooty. The test identifies a marker on the agouti gene. I have yet to find a good article on the subject but will try to email this lab so that I can at least cite the correspondence.Countercanter (talk) 20:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm.  The lab sounds like they mostly are using the UCD research...?  I would be interested in what they have to say.   This is sort of interesting, or at least confusing.  Do you think that this suggests assorted different mechanisms produce darkened shades?  Is liver chestnut created by a different mechanism than dark bay?  Is "seal brown" a different thing than just "brown" or from other types of dark bay, such as the almost-maroon-ish shade some folks call "black bay"  (I kind of find all these terms rather annoying, as I think they are mostly for PR, sigh).  Not sure you have the answer, perhaps it's just an open question...last I heard, the proposed "sooty" gene was what made for dark bay/brown horses as well as liver chestnuts and the darkening seen on horses like that buckskin photo you put up a while ago...is this still the working theory, or is something else going on?  (Or do I just have it all wrong from the get-go???)  Montanabw(talk) 03:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The brown test is this lab's research alone. Seal brown is analogous to black and tan in mice and dogs. The lighter ones overlap in phenotype with dark bays. Just as regular agouti does not affect chestnuts, nor does this agouti mutation. Countercanter (talk) 13:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If we can find the published study, then that would be cool.  So to say "seal brown," how is this different from all other dark bays, virtually all of  whom usually have light coloring around the  muzzle, eyes, etc??  Or is this "pangare?"  Definitely want to see their research...  Montanabw(talk) 19:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Brown test now available

message: We/I/someone will need to update this article to reflect the new Seal brown (horse) article I finally got going. Countercanter (talk) 14:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it, I am so busy right now that I'm lucky to get on wiki once a week.  Other than still getting a little too technical for us little kids (grin), you are a darn good editor and getting better all the time.  Montanabw(talk) 05:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seal brown article 

message: Recently the file :File:Negotiator, a Bay Horse in a Landscape) by John Frederick Herring, Sr..jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. It's an 1826 painting by John Frederick Herring, Sr.. Dcoetzee 01:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New file [[:File:Negotiator, a Bay Horse in a Landscape) by John Frederick Herring, Sr..jpg]] 

message: Why no etymology of Bayard (legend)?Alpharts Tod (talk) 23:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: chicken or egg?  No sources. Montanabw(talk) 19:55, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bayard