Talk:Judi Bari

message: This is one of those Wikipedia articles where a small group of true believers can write wildly because the issue just isn't that important to those who might take a balanced view.
For starters, this article states that COINTELPRO was still in existence 15 years after it was disbanded, a paranoid belief in wide circulation in the Northwest anarchist subculture to which Bari belonged.
The FBI investigation can easily be called flawed, but to jump from there to a conspiracy is an incredible leap. Even facts that would establish Bari was not knowingly carrying a bomb but which fails to corroborate an FBI conspiracy theory is ignored. Jurors thought that the FBI was so sure Bari planted the bomb that they dismissed the possibility it might be another group or individual. But this isn't good enough for the editors who tend this page.
Whether they know it or not, such biases are rather transparent to anyone not invested in anarchist subculture. Indeed, it suggests that the FBI might have been on to something in suspecting Bari of knowingly transporting a bomb, but just did a poor job of proving their case. There are numerous other possibilities, but an FBI plot is not one of them.
98.248.125.79 (talk) 05:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The FBI theory is only one of several presented.  It is up to the reader to decide which one is best substantiated.  Hopefully recent additions have corrected one glaring omission that put the FBI and "Lord's Avenger" theories in the WP:UNDUE category.  I'm convinced that the bomb was an attempt on Bari's life, but I also must concede that that the possibility that she was knowingly transporting a bomb (without knowing that it would become motion-triggered within 12 hours from the time it was placed in the car) cannot be entirely eliminated.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.208.11.42 (talk) 02:08, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Implying the FBI bombed Bari is the mark of fanaticism 

message: To what extent should allegations that the FBI itself was responsible for planting the bomb be mentioned? --Daniel C. Boyer
:To the extent that you can find citable sources alleging that.  DanKeshet
::Might I suggest this page? It's an interview with Judi that touches on these points. I'm on my lunch break now, but when I get home I will try to find some time to write something up. Loverevolutionary 19:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be sources other than the person who has an interest in promoting the theory of FBI conspiracy. Yes, the FBI had conducted COINTELPRO earlier against radical groups, but this is a separate case at a separate time. From Stephen Talbot's 2002 article in Salon, Bari had personal reasons for diverting attention away from her ex-husband, Mike Sweeney, although she had told Talbot in confidence that she suspected him of the bomb attack. (Then she denied it publicly.)Parkwells (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: was her death in 1997 related to her injuries? --Lehnen (talk) 10:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  death 

message: The article seems biased. GenQuest (talk) 14:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased? 

message: As a Willits resident during her tenure, I can assure you that she was pretty roundly hated by a considerable number of her neighbors.
Her role in blocking timber fallers and loggers from earning a living for their families should be explored, for the sake of balance in this article.
From personal experience, I can tell you that she could be oblivious to her effect on blue collar workers. She was widely resented because she was perceived as a trust fund baby who did not have to work for a living. The general impression among the more conservative Willits residents was that she was contemptous of anyone who had to work and live from paycheck to paycheck.
I was a participant in an incident when she was willing to sabotage a veterans benefit involving many thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours of volunteer labor because she wanted to make a political point. When I was delegated to point out the consequences to her, she was unmoved. My impression was she was contemptous of military veterans. I also was struck by the feeling that she lacked a sense of self preservation. I am not mean spirited enough to have been happy she was bombed, but I was not surprised either. She was a victim looking for a perpetrator.
None of this shows in the article. Perhaps some or all of it can't be verified in reliable sources. However, in the interest of the balance needed for NPOV, it should be explored.
Georgejdorner (talk) 07:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: George -- You said "Perhaps some or all of it can't be verified in reliable sources. However, in the interest of the balance needed for NPOV, it should be explored." Actually, WP:NPOV requires that we cover reliable sources in a balanced manner. It doesn't require that we balance information backed by reliable sources with information backed by no sources. If you find any reliable sources that found it newsworthy how much "more conservative Willits residents" hated her, then feel free to include this information in the article (along with the sources). But we cannot start including information without sources -- especially contentious information. -- Mesoderm (talk) 08:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: (By the way, I have no illusions that many conservatives in the area hated her -- after all, she was a feminist, environmentalist, and social justice activist. Of course, they would hate her. And I think that this is important, considering what happened to her. What I'm wondering though are if there are any reliable sources that talk about this?) -- Mesoderm (talk) 08:47, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

text: "From personal experience, I can tell you that she could be oblivious to her effect on blue collar workers. She was widely resented because she was perceived as a trust fund baby who did not have to work for a living. The general impression among the more conservative Willits residents was that she was contemptous of anyone who had to work and live from paycheck to paycheck." -- I'm curious what her relationship with the IWW says about this? Speaking of the historic role of timber industries, she did, after all, refer to workers and the environment as mutual underdogs: "Historically, it was the IWW who broke the stranglehold of the timber barons on the loggers and millworkers in the nineteen teens [...] Now the companies are back in total control, only this time they're taking down not only the workers but the Earth as well. This, to me, is what the IWW-Earth First! link is really about" (Shantz 2002, quoted in the article). Maxisdetermined (talk) 21:22, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

text: My god, a "feminist"! Shudder. No more explanation needed..... Maxisdetermined (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 21:13, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judi was controversial and this article doesn't show that 

message: I have gone through the sources presently cited and added citations to the greatest extent I could.
Georgejdorner (talk) 01:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supplying cites from current sources 

message: Pardon: My unfortunate use of the word "silly" as in 'silly edit' ...Of course, you are correct; I meant silly in the sense that I had - have, actually - a short paper due on that great bug-a-boo "Objectivity", and was taking myself to task for giving the Bari thing greater priority. Avoidance, that's what it was, and avoidance is almost always silly (to say nothing of being a bit stupid).
In truth, the article had awakened ghosts that would not release me until I had gone through the whole Seeds thing again - for the n th time. What I wrote was poorly edited and only marginally coherent, and so I appreciate all the more your having taken time with it.
I blew another hour looking for Seeds stuff on the net. Out of hundreds of things, perhaps one or two about the collective, no more. Many of us adopted the name 'Seeds' as surnames, especially those whose activities did not require 'work names'. One or two of those names that pop up on searches refer to some the collective's members, but if any of them wanted to write something about their Seeds time, they'd have done so by now. ...And (ahem!) there may be statute of limitations issues, even almost a quarter-century later...some of that stuff can get a bit freaky, you know? Activities, financing, current activities - stuff best left asleep.
Improvements in archiving and distribution may make more information available in the future, but it really was/is too insignificant to warrant much work; casual interest, maybe. Nebulous, amorphous, fleeting - believing can often be a silliness of the heart, and believing it possible to stop the American war machine with school buses and porta-potties: that's what's silly.
But it was fun while it lasted.
There is also an organization that claims direct lineage to the collective. The connection seems a bit tenuous, but this 'new' group is doing necessary (and therefore honorable) work, so good on 'em...even if'n it's not my cup of tea.
Regards. Thanks for your professionalism. And now...off to de-bunk the preposterous idea of objectivity-in-history, something else that I am now doing for the n th time.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.19.49.18 (talk) 07:38, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Judi Bari posting 

message: Hi to all, & thanks especially to those of you who contributed such great info to this article.  I just combined several sections and made a few clarifications here and there.  I religiously avoided injecting or deleting editorial content--focus was solely on rearranging.  I hope you all find it's even more readable now.  No doubt, it can stand more tweaking.  I was fortunate to see the "Forest for the Trees" film some years ago on PBS. Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 01:21, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Reworked info to combine redundant parallel sections

message: In the section on "Death and posthumous civil rights trial" it says that:
:On 2 March 1997, Bari died of breast cancer at her home near Willits.
:Bari and Cherney had filed a federal civil rights suit claiming that the FBI and police officers falsely arrested the pair and attempted to frame them as terrorists so as to discredit their political organizing in defense of the redwood forests.
Although an alert reader can figure out that the suit was filed prior to her death from the verb tense and the context, it should say so clearly for the benefit of less alert readers and those who don't have a strong command of verb tenses in English. Ideally the date or at least the year the suit was filed should be given. In 199_, Bari & Cherney ....) In the absence of an actual date, the second paragraph should be revised along the following lines:
:Prior to Bari's death, she and Cherney had filed a federal civil right suit ....
It should also perhaps include a sentence at the end along the lines of:
:Bari's estate and Cherney continued to pursue these claims.   Ileanadu (talk) 06:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death & Lawsuit 

message: I couldn't find anything that reflects Bari's participation in any congressional committee, but she certainly did not "head" one, or sit on one, not being a House member. I modified it to insert "advisory" committee. Also, I couldn't find any source for her role in creating a "Cahto" wilderness area. There does not appear to be any such area. I wonder if it was a "South Fork Eel River" area, drainage for Cahto Peak, or if it was referring to contemporary or traditional Cahto tribal lands? Activist (talk) 22:47, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headed Congressional committee? 

message: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judi_Bari
this article is so slanted - it's so focused on minutiae and doesn't even mention the legacy legislation that came out of this movement that protected parts of the Headwaters.
And as far as the lumber hating Bari : The local racists hated Martin Luther King Jr too but he ended up changing things (in the long run) in a way that represented the slow slouching towards a better humanity that all these fights move towards.
Judi - and most leaders - have feet of clay. What matters and should at least be -effing mentioned is the legacy of preservation that came after.
It's so obvious that the people who rewrote this entry from the first one on her had a real axe to grind.
Great job Wikipedia at providing an objective knowledge source - and this is specifically why I don't waste money on "donations" to this half-baked "pedia". It doesn't really deserve any kind of association with "encyclopedia" if it not going to provide a well-rounded overview. This article on Ms. Bari is so very obviously slanted in one direction! Shame shame shame!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C454:1170:8049:D8D1:5099:6B27 (talk) 01:08, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  this article is so slanted - it's so focused on minutiae and doesn't even mention the legacy legislation that came out of this movement that protected parts of the Headwaters. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This is supposed to be an article about Judi Bari. While the bombing of her car was important, the discussions about theories of evidence, who or what business or organization might have been responsible (along with public recanting of private statements about persons with personal animus), and who was to be believed among local activists and others overwhelms other information about her life. (For instance, way too much material about theories from writers with the AVA.)  The 2002 trial took place posthumously; the jury found in favor of Bari and Cherney's suit, and awarded damages. Two documentaries were made after the trial, one by the daughter of their attorney. Cherney made a 2012 film based on videos of Bari and her narrative of the case, and was arranging (with his attorney) for a private lab to analyze DNA recovered from the Cloverdale bomb. It is unclear if DNA was ever taken from Mike Sweeney, an obvious suspect. The case has never been solved. It would be easier to focus on Bari, Redwood Summer, and legacy legislation as well as other events, if the bombing/investigation/trial were moved to another article. There the detail devoted to these elements would make more sense.Parkwells (talk) 16:57, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggest creation of separate article on bombing and aftermath

message: This book was published as chapters and is available online, self-published by Steve Ongerth. It can be listed under a header such as "Further reading" but should not be cited or listed as a Reliable Source because it is self-published, per Wiki MOS. This article should be edited to delete cites to this publication.Parkwells (talk) 18:44, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Redwood Uprising questionable source