Talk:Zacharie Cloutier

message: I have established connections for Avril Lavigne to Urbain Tessier & Marie Archambault
and to Guillaume-Jean Langlois & Jeanne Millet, but am not finding any direct lines to Zacharie Cloutier & Xainte Dupont. Note the lack of the Cloutier name in her published Ahnentafel. Can anyone verify such a connection (and indicate the path)? Thank you. -- MichDiaspora (talk) 11:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Avril Lavigne

message: Ellen DeGeneres has been added to the list of notable descendants of Zacharie Cloutier, but the best I can determine is that this is based upon some erroneous reports on a number of entertainment blogs and news sites.  What Ancestry.com announced in 2010 was that Ellen DeGeneres and Madonna were related through their common ancestor, Martin Aucoin, and this is reported by a number of sites, but some reported that the connection was via Zacharie Cloutier.  I can find nothing on Ancestry reporting DeGeneres to be descended from Zacharie, and I believe WP would hold us to a higher standard than a few conflicting reports, both using Ancestry as their source. 
Personally, as a descendant of M. Cloutier, I would love for it to be proven that Ms. DeGeneres is a distant cousin of mine, but I'm still unconvinced of it yet, and have removed her from the list until something more convincing is unearthed.
Comments?
-- Couillaud 03:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ellen DeGeneres 

message: I have been researching the notable descendants of Zacharie Cloutier for some time, and although I have seen Hillary Clinton listed among them in several puff pieces in the popular press, I have never seen a shred of evidence that this is the case. pnh (talk) 17:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Mrs. Clinton IS definitely of French-Canadian descent, and IS related to Madonna and Angelina Jolie, though the only link I can find offhand is through their descent from Gaspard Boucher rather than Zacharie Cloutier.  I have her Québecois line entered into my database at home (special project to build my list of famous cousins and my links to them) and will check it later this week.   --   Couillaud 19:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have checked my notes as to Mrs. Clinton's French-Canadian descent, and she is indeed descended from Gaspard Boucher, but there is no definitive link between her and Zacharie Cloutier.  Her inclusion on the list is probably a result of a misreading by many who see that she is related to Angelina Jolie, Madonna, et al., and assume that the connection is through Zacharie.  -- Couillaud 14:07, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Her ancestry is apparently well traced, and discussed here. I have not seen those Michigan journal articles. I did see a family tree for Hillary Clinton online and in full detail that did link her great grandmother Delia Martin to Cloutier, but I cannot find that on line now, perhaps because people published their work in the Michigan journal on the Canadian heritage of Michiganders, called "Michigan's Habitant Heritage, Journal of the French-Canadian Heritage Society of Michigan". If someone could read the articles cited in the link, perhaps we could feel confident on this topic one way or the other. I did not find the text on line, only an article that indicated that the pertinent issue is still available via a public library.  --Prairieplant (talk) 02:33, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Delia Martin was the daughter of Antoine Martin (a Cloutier descendant) and Mary Anne Fances McDougall (of Windsor, Ontario). Antoine's mother was Odile Richard, daughter of Pierre and Odile (Thébert) Richard. Pierre is the DNA-verified son of Jean-Baptiste and Angéline (Boucher) Richard. Jean's mother was Élisabeth-Isabelle Gamache (wife of another Pierre Richard, 1681-1756), daughter of Nicolas Gamache and Élisabeth-Ursule Cloutier. Élisabeth-Ursule is the daughter of Zacharie and Xainte (DuPont) Cloutier's son Charles.  73.18.142.34 (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no Cloutiers in Hillary's Ahnentafel. Odile Richard's parents are not Pierre & Odile; they come from more recent French immigrants. Hillary's most significant Québecois ancestors are from the Aucoin and Campeau families. -- MichDiaspora (talk) 14:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Hillary Clinton

message: David Archambault, leader of the Standing Rock reservation at the time of the pipeline standoff, is a Lakota Native American, but also a descendant of Zacharie Cloutier. Zacharie and Xainte (DuPont) Cloutier's son Charles had a daughter Marie-Madeleine who married Paul Tessier dit Lavigne. Their daughter Marie married Paul Baudreau, and to this union was born a daughter Thérèse, wife of Louis Archambault. Louis and Thérèse were the 6g grandparents of the David Archambault in question. --73.18.142.34 (talk) 14:57, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: David Archambault

message: Kcastle13 added Hubert Charbonneau; Jacques Légaré; Bertrand Desjardins. "Répertoire des Unions (Directory of Unions)". Programme de Recherche en Démographie Historique (PRDH) (Research Program in Historical Demography). Montreal: University of Montreal. Retrieved 29 October 2014. as a reference for Zacharie and his family, all their marriages in particular. If one follows the link, a page appears asking one to select French or English. I select English. It seems then I have to enter the names of the couples to see the dates of the marriages in that database. Is that a sufficient reference? Should Kcastle13 find a way to show the dates directly from the citation? Or explain in the citation that the reader must enter the names of the couple to see the date? Now it does not seem like much of a source, if I must figure out how to search through it for 9 distinct references. Opinions on this?       --Prairieplant (talk) 04:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You have to pay to access the database thus you cannot link to the material directly. The link serves to direct the user to the database itself and it is up to them whether they wish to pay for it or not. I can send you a screenshot of the material I referenced in the database, if you like. It's no different than referencing a book that a user would have to buy in order to see the information. Since the database is created and maintained by the Demography Department of the University of Montreal, I would say it's a reliable source. I can add that it is a pay service in the reference.  --Kcastle13 (talk) 13:51, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is interactive database a good ref? 

message: This whole section is based on unacceptable sourcing to provide non-noteworthy information. Famouskin is not reliable, Geneanet is not reliable, and Cloutier Cousins is not reliable.  They are all self-published, and do not provide an indication that any of this is noteworthy.  The reverter suggests that rather than deleting the entire list it be trimmed, but when absolutely none of it is either noteworthy nor based on a reliable source, there is no basis to distinguish which pieces of self-published genealogical trivia should remain and which should go - they all should go.  Being ancestor of a person more than 10 generations later is just genealogical happenstance, a curiosity to descendants who wish to claim reflected glory off of their remote kin but providing nothing informative about the subject (or to put it another way, do we better understand some aspect of Zacharie Cloutier's identity by knowing that he is ancestor of Shania Twain than were he ancestor of, say, Cheryl Crow? - no, not in the least). It is just the type of genealogical trivia to which WP:NOTGENEALOGY applies. Agricolae (talk) 20:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with restoration of the list of blue links, and also that better sources should be cited if available. Please seek consensus on the talk page for deletion of the list before removing it again. Doremo (talk) 03:32, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If I may add an opinion... a simple blue-linked descendants list can be interesting to include because it may give to the reader a wider sense of the man's place in our history. But, such lists should be limited to a reasonable number and each one must include a direct link to a reliable source. WP:ORIG, WP:SYNTH and non-academic genealogy sites don't make WP:RSs. RFT42 (talk) 03:21, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This whole Talk page is about the descendants of Zacharie Cloutier, every section. I think a list is appropriate, including people who have a Wikipedia article and a clear descent from this first settler. There are legitimate family trees. It is significant that so many people can trace their roots to Cloutier, and the other first settlers, in my view. Trimming the list for significance of the descendants, along with the text on the descendants counted in a past year, seems like the best path.  --Prairieplant (talk) 10:30, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That this whole page is about descendants is indicative of the problem of adding gratuitous genealogy. The fact is that colonial era people have descendants and some of them are going to be notable. That is just the nature of the beast. It is no reflection on the colonist. As I said, when you could substitute one modern notable person for another without changing your understanding of the subject, it is all just genealogy for its own sake: WP:NOTGENEALOGY. Agricolae (talk) 23:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Descendants list