Talk:Conspiracy theory/Archive 10

message: trying to get a conspiracy based wiki up and running. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiconspiracy. check it out, add input. most of all help me get it running (I'm kinda amature over here)--Matt D 02:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  proper place for conspiracies to run free 

message: This article, "Gang stalking" has been deleted (by Jimbo Wales, among others) with the ground salted (protected by admins from recreation.)  I propose it would be appropriate to merge here into Conspiracy theory. I have a neutral opinion on the veracity. I have offered to request speedy deletion if four admins request it. --James S. 23:32, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've deleted it and removed the merge tag.  Discussion here.  Tom Harrison Talk 00:17, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I withdraw the proposal.  So much for trying to reach a bold compromise. --James S. 00:27, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that I doubt your judgement in the slightest, Tom, but I believe in going equipped with all the facts, and that link has been archived. Any chance you could repair it? I've tried scanning your 500 most recent edits, but you're a busy man! Adhib 20:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've emailed you the text. Tom Harrison Talk 17:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gang stalking 

message: I created the entry on the Black Pope as a minor reference for anyone coming across the term. Googling, it appears that there are various conspiracy theories involving the BP, sometimes invoking the New World Order. Anyone care to add a few lines, to the several articles? Jackiespeel 18:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Black Pope

message: Hofstadter also noted that "sexual freedom" is a vice frequently attributed to the conspiracist's target group, noting that "very often the fantasies of true believers reveal strong sadomasochistic outlets, vividly expressed, for example, in the delight of anti-Masons with the cruelty of Masonic punishments."Hofstadter, Richard. The Paranoid Style in American Politics. Harper’s Magazine, November 1964, pp. 77-86.
*("those that find such secret oaths distasteful and unamerican they are just psycotic and need medicated?" Delight there is a NPOV word huh?)
Dear fellow editors: I restored the above-referenced material to the article. The material is a quotation with a footnote reference to its source. I'm unclear how the statement would constitute a cogent explanation of the edit. Non-neutral point of view in Wikipedia does not mean that we remove quotations merely because they express a particular point of view. Exactly why was the material taken out? Yours, Famspear 15:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Psycologist Quote removed

message: SkeenaR cited President Bush saying, "Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty." The change SkeenaR made was from this:
:Most people who have their theory or speculation labeled a "conspiracy theory" reject the term as prejudicial, and argue others use it in an attempt to evade an analysis of the subject.
to this:
:Most people who have their theory or speculation labeled a "conspiracy theory" reject the term as prejudicial. Others use it in an attempt to evade an analysis of the subject.
I suppose the idea is that the President's quote is to be understood as using 'conspiracy theory' in an attempt to evade an analysis of the subject. But that only might be so if the terrorists were not in fact guilty; if the conspiracy theories were true, and President Bush knew it. The quote cited does not constitute "an attempt to evade an analysis of the subject." SkeenaR's citation of the quote does support the original formulation, which I have restored. Tom Harrison Talk 04:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: President Bush was only 'attempting to evade analysis' if the outrageous conspiracy theories were true, and he knew they were. He said they are "malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists" (I do not think they are malicious, or so intended, in all cases). He said he does not want people to let conspiracy theories stand unchallenged, becuase they are attempts to shift blame away from the guilty. A man may think President Bush is a liar, and that he is only saying this to 'to evade analysis,' but the quote does not support that. Neither do I think it is indisputably detrimental to the administration to have this discussed openly. I do not want to make this partisan, but some politicians have been able to advance themselves with their constituencies by promoting conspiracy theories, while others, who hoped to appeal to a more national audience, have lost support by doing so.  Tom Harrison Talk 14:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Even allowing the applicability of your analogy, the innocent man does not want to be investigated for murder not because he wants to evade analysis, but because there is a real murder out there. You are using this quote to attribute to President Bush a motivation you cannot know, and one he denies. He says specifically that outrageous ct's should not be tolerated becuase they are attempts to shift blame away from the guilty. Your interpretation of the quote relies on the assumption that an investigation would be damaging to him; then you cite this quote as proof that he wants to avoid a damaging investigation. His quote only supports your use of it if we accept that the outrageous ct's he refers to are true. You're using your conclusion to justify your assumption. Tom Harrison Talk 00:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't find that persuasive; it seems to me you are arguing in circles. Still, there's no point in repeating ourselves. The current version reflects your preference, and I'm not going to restore the wording unless someone else has an opinion. Tom Harrison Talk 14:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No, we have established no such thing. I do not agree that 'he was using the term to evade analysis of a subject.' I think your application of the quote supports the original language, "Most people who have their theory or speculation labeled a "conspiracy theory" reject the term as prejudicial, arguing that others use it in an attempt to evade an analysis of the subject." I'm just not going to restore that wording until/unless someone besides me wants it restored, and I'm not going to repeat to you arguments I have already made, which have failed to persuade you. Tom Harrison Talk 20:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent change, with edit summary 'clarity' 

message: Why is Mumia Abu-Jamal listed in the "Regularly produce allegations of conspiracies" section?--DieWeibeRose 04:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This google search suggests that he is often the focus of conspiracy theories. Do you think he should not be listed? Tom Harrison Talk 04:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless he is the creator of those conspiracy theories, I think his name should be taken off the list and, perhaps, the title should be changed to "Frequent Creators of Conspiracy Allegations" or some such. There is another separate section for people who are the focus of conspiracy theories but are not the creators of them. Perhaps, his name should be moved there. What do you think?--DieWeibeRose 07:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: P.S. Many of the Google hits are from critics disparaging Abu-Jamal's defense arguments as "conspiracy theories." Whether you believe his defense arguments or not, I don't think they fit the standard bill for a "conspiracy theory."--DieWeibeRose 07:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm no expert on the man; I'm prepared to defer to those with a deeper interest. Tom Harrison Talk 14:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm no expert either and for what it's worth I think he probably shot the cop. Unless someone objects I'll go ahead and make the changes discussed above in the next day or two.--DieWeibeRose 05:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why he is on the list. It doesn't make sense to me. I support removing it.--Cberlet 05:34, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Completed changes discussed above. Not sure I used the best wording for the new section heading, though.--DieWeibeRose 10:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mumia Abu-Jamal 

message: * The Conspiracy Wiki   
* The TinWiki A Conspiracy Theory Wikipedia 
Those two wikis are not at all notable, and there's little content. Click 'random page' a few times and see what's there. I don't think linking to them improves the page, and makes the section look like a link dump. Tom Harrison Talk 19:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is THAT supposed to be funny ? They're non-notable except to insult those who have had a strange experience, as persuant to the Robertson Panel and/or the Brookings Report protocol.
I've seen them both. I have investigated both the famous and not so famous paranormal matters all accross the US. I am currently in a rural area of the US and these people will shoot and kill anything they percieve as a threat. Why is it that people cannot comprehend the fact that rural residents will shoot and kill tresspassers, and will shoot anything they consider a threat?
Getting shot for tresspassing is not a "conspiracy theory". It is a fact. Martial Law 06:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy wikis 

message: :Others use it in an attempt to evade an analysis of a subject.
I have to concur with Tom Harrison, above. SkeenaR, I think you're maybe just a tad too heated up about this issue to take a cool judgement on it. The cite certainly does not establish what you need it to establish to support the claim I moved here from the article. This claim concerns motive - with the link, it imputes a particular motive to George II, that his use of "Conspiracy theory" demonstrably has the intent to evade analysis. But it just can't establish that. Bush's intention might have been any number of things - intentions are more slippery than you seem to acknowledge. That you read their goal to have been evasion is your reading of his intentions, nothing more, I'm afraid. Adhib 23:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Libelling Bush

message: There is already a link to 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, so there is no need to link to every other page about 9/11 -- those don't focus on the theories themselves so there is no reason for them to link here.
I also notice no one has bothered to remove the 'left gatekeeper' page link -- it doesn't even talk about conspiracy theories at all. Bov 23:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took out the left gatekeeper link; I didn't see a link to researchers quesioning... I don't see a need to include one, but links to Michael Hoffman and Alex Jones are clearly appropriate. I added Thierry Meyssan.
While I agree that there was no point having a link to a site about "left gatekeepers" without any explanation as to its relevance, I do think that a look at the issue of "left gatekeepers" is relevant here, insofar as it is sometimes cited as one of the reasons why so many people are unwilling to believe in particular "conspiracy theories" or in "conspiracy theories" in general. There are those who make the argument that many conspiracies do not come to light because certain figures who are perceived to be prominent figures of the radical left go to great lengths to make sure that those "conspiracy theories" are not taken seriously. This accusation has been levelled at Noam Chomsky and Amy Goodman, for instance. It is for this reason that both of these people have been called "left gatekeepers".  This is worth discussing here. Among those who believe in left gatekeepers, opinion is divided as to how deliberately or consciously these prominent leftists are attempting to disinform people. - Ireneshusband 03:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 9/11 Researchers

message: Just a few too many of them. It's all right to say that "Some people say (xxxx)" only if you then go and list off some people who actually do say (xxxx). Otherwise, you know, "some people" say a lot of things. And don't forget to check this one out: Encyclopedia damatica entry. Tenebrous 23:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasel Words 

message: Check this out. It says that the NSA is spying on people. Martial Law 22:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this one a "Conspiracy theory ?

message: The two examples of actual conspiracies were reverted, I'm putting them back and explaing what they mean exactly, because I think Aiden misunderstood : 
- the Dreyfus affair : Dreyfus was innocent, the conspiracy was not on his part, but on the military officials who, on discovering that he was innocent, decided to cover up the truth to protect the army 
-the Elders of Zion : again, the conspiracy is not fomented by the Jews, the document is a fake, the conspirators are the one who forged the document, in an effort to make people believe there was a Jewish conspiracy. Unmitigated Success 19:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your point. I made a few edits that I hope are helpful and consistent with your meaning. Tom Harrison Talk 19:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Occurrences of real conspiracies

message: Has anyone tried to bring "aliens" into some of these conpiracies (eg the person on the grassy knole was a Little Green Man and teleported away etc)?
Might be interesting for a spoof (or Uncyclopedia)
:GIYF:  Ronabop 03:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Little Green Men]] and conspiracy theories

message: There is a new page, Wikipedia:Conspiracy_theory where there is going to be a larger discussion of the use of the term "Conspiracy Theory" in Wiki titles. It would be ideal if people with a variety of viewpoints joined the discussion on that page, since a number of page titles are likely to be discussed, and name changes debated.--Cberlet 19:58, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Debate on "Conspiracy Theory" in Wiki page titles

message: The "neologism" quote doesn't come from "critics." It comes from a review of Daniel Pipes' Conspiracy: How the Paranoid Style Flourishes and Where It Comes From, written by Lyndon LaRouche, and here is the quote in context:
*Otherwise, relative to the myth about "conspiracy theories" popularized by liberal ideologue Richard Hofstadter's 1967 "The Paranoid Style in American Politics," there is essentially nothing axiomatically new in Pipes' argument. What is new, is the book's effort to popularize a fruity neologism, conspiracism, now recently adopted by such conspiratorial denizens of the Internet's left bank as Dennis King crony John Foster "Chip" Berlet. In short, matters have come full circle: rather than simply rejecting what the irrational Hofstadter classed as "conspiracy theories," Pipes et al. have spun the thread of Hofstadter's dogma into a "conspiracy theory," the theory of "conspiracism."
I propose that this quote be incorporated into the article, rather than the present, somewhat misleading attribution to "critics." --HK 15:16, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: HK, weren't you banned from inserting material from LaRouche into any article on Wikipedia? And in any case, the term probably was first popularized by Mintz in his 1985 book, not by LaRouche, who as usual has his facts wrong.--Cberlet 15:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The unattributed quote from LaRouche was added by Kaibabsquirrel in this edit. I am merely suggesting that, in keeping with Wikipedia policy, the quote be properly attributed. And if you would be so kind as to go back and read the quote, slowly, you will discover that LaRouche says nothing about who first popularized the term. He does, however, say that Pipes et al. have spun the thread of Hofstadter's dogma into a "conspiracy theory," the theory of "conspiracism. --HK 21:44, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to clarify something about the "unattributed quote from LaRouche".  I didn't have LaRouche in mind at all with that edit, but rather Adam Parfrey.  Methinks some people overestimate LaRouche's unimportance in the grand scheme of things.  Kaibabsquirrel 05:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, LaRouche writes: "What is new, is the book's effort to popularize a fruity neologism, conspiracism, now recently adopted by such conspiratorial denizens of the Internet's left bank as Dennis King crony John Foster "Chip" Berlet." He has it backwards, like most things. King and I were both using and popularizing the term "conspiracism" for years before the Pipes' book was published. --Cberlet 21:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Cite your sources]]

message: The way I see it, there are three ways to make this article neutral. Number one, take out the link to LaRouche because he is being implicitly accused of being a "conspiracist." Number two, restore the rebuttal quote from LaRouche, which is useful as an all-around rebuttal quote. Number three, put in an NPOV tag. --65.38.182.100 20:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the relevance of the LaRouche quote. Tom Harrison (talk) 19:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: A number of tags flagging "dubious" section have been added, but where is the discussion? It is not useful to tag and run.--Cberlet 15:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious tags

message: Is Mein Kampf a work of conspiracist literature? If so, should it be listed here? Tom Harrison Talk 19:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracist literature 

message: We can read in this section:
:On some occasions particular conspiracy allegations turn out to be real[...] Where such success is due to sound investigative methodology, it is clear that it would not exhibit many of the compromising features identified as characteristic of conspiracy theory, and would thus not commonly be considered a 'Conspiracy theory'. 
This make no sense at all: it is suggesting that there may exist "theories" about "conspiracy" that are not "conspiracy theories" because they don't exibit the alleged "compromising features" of "conspiracy theories" expressed in the article!! It makes no sense at all and makes the reader think that the writer is playing with words to try to keep negative point of view about conspiracy theories (builded up in the rest of the article) even when it is clear that it is not possible.--Pokipsy76 08:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a self-abandoning argument. "Conspiracy theories are wrong; therefore, even if we said something was a conspiracy theory before, if it's proven to be right, then it isn't a conspiracy theory." --FOo 08:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it ridiculous?--Pokipsy76 08:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: An urban legend is any *lagend* that take place in a city. A "conspiracy theory" is any theory about conspiracy. If you think that the term "conspiracy theory" has a different meaning from "theory about conspiracy" please provide a definition of "conspiracy theory" that can make the difference more clear and provide some reference that support the consistency of your definition with english language.--Pokipsy76 14:46, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems in section "Real conspiracies" 

message: This term is not explained in the article trope and I am not able to ascertain a clear perception of what it denotes from this article. I'm sure many others are bewildered by it also. Could someone please insert a short definition (perhaps even a sourced one)? __meco 05:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand it as 'trope' in the sense of a narrative device; a verbal leitmotif. In this sense, "Jewish masters of the media" is a media trope; "violence in movies and sex on tv" is another, as are "liberal media" and "corporate media". Confusingly, these are all media tropes about the media. A different example of a media trope (that you may already have seen) is "The line has been something of a media trope in recent years: Methamphetamine is spreading across the country like a brush fire." Maybe someone else can correct or expand on my description, or give better examples. Tom Harrison Talk 14:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is a ''media trope''? 

message: I've removed the reference to From Time Immemorial. The link doesn't work, and while there is general agreement that the book is flawed, I haven't seen any references to support a conspiracy involving the Israeli secret service. Tom Harrison Talk 14:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  From Time Immemorial 

message: As far as I'm concerned, there is way way too much unsourced material in that section. While some of it may very well be true, there are many strong statements there, and we need citations. Don't we? This article seems slanted to be an ad hominem attack. SkeenaR 05:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Features 

message: Unless we can get some citations, I'm removing the entire Features section as entirely original research. Items such as "Enjoys zero credibility in expert communities;
Academics and professionals tend to ignore the story, treating it as too frivolous to invest their time and risk their personal authority in disproving" are broad, vague and obtuse. Uncited speculative junk that has no place in an encyclopedia.  Really, shouldn't this article, as prominent as it is, be held to the high standards that are called for in the rest of the encyclopedia? SkeenaR 05:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The features are all well supported by the references in the article. Tom Harrison Talk 14:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Features needs a bad fixing 

message: The section entitled “Features” should be removed in its entirety. It is without citation and appears prejudiced. For re-inclusion the section should include citations and be placed under the heading of “Criticism”, or moved under an alternative article entitled “Anti-conspiracy theory”. Additionally as the article stands at the moment, the majority of literature presented is actually a condemnation of so called “conspiracy theory” rather than a neutral presentation of it. XSentinelx 01:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all in the archives, and further up the page. I see no point in each of us repeating arguments the other has found unpersuasive. You're removal of the features section will either be supported by consensus, or not. Tom Harrison Talk 13:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alteration

message: The lead of the article mentions History has shown that crimes carried out by a group of people (a "conspiracy") are not uncommon. Does this somewhat mix the different meanings of the word "conspiracy"? If the police have a theory that two guys robbed a shop that isn't really a "conspiracy theory" even though the crime would technically be a "conspiracy". In conspiracy theories the hypothesis contradicts what was or is represented as the mainstream explanation (clip from Wiktionary), in conspiracieslegal meaning there is no "mainstream explanation". Would it be ok to note that such legal conspiracies are a different meaning of the word and not really what conspiracy theories are about? The "History has shown..." sentence accidentally only obfuscates things. Weregerbil 17:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that sentence does mix the meanings, and somehow implies "conspiracy theories are not uncommon".  There's a difference between a "conspiracy" and a "conspiracy theory", with the latter being a theory.  The former could be a conspiracy, in a legal sense, such as "conspiracy by Enron executives to defraud investors...".  These accounts are accepted by mainstream, reliable sources, and are litigated in a court of law, with evidence presented, ...  Conspiracy theories run counter to mainstream accounts, are more speculation (or theoretical), and aren't put on trial in a court of law. --Aude (talk contribs) 17:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's misleading and basically a red herring. You've got it right. "Conspiracy theory" by definition is an alternative to the "conventional" explanation of some event, and typically not widely accepted due to the apparent lack of evidence. Example: Conventional history is that Oswald killed JFK by himself. Conspiracy theory is that others were involved, and maybe Oswald not at all. However, there is virtually no real evidence that contradicts conventional history, just enough questions to make some (or many) people doubt it. Wahkeenah 17:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. There is plenty of solid evidence to support a good few of the most well-known "conspiracy theories". There is certainly enough evidence to prove that the official story in those cases is absurd. The "apparent lack of evidence" is mainly due to the shortage of people, especially among those in positions of influence, who are willing to risk their reputations, their incomes, or even (in extremme cases) their safety, to bring that evidence to light. Instead, all too often, those people will resort to ritualised mockery of "conspiracy theorists" in order both to forestall social opprobrium and also, perhaps, in order avoid acknowledging to themselves the utter intellectual and moral bankruptcy of their conformism. On such a foundation is "truth" built. Ireneshusband 10:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: So what is a "conspiracy theory" for you? And where did you take your definition?--Pokipsy76 14:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Random sentence in lead

message: I mistakenly supported the merge of Conspiracism here. There are two or more divergent fields covered in this article. The sections conspirascism and proposed origins would be better placed in their own article. SkeenaR 22:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Split

message: Among skeptics, they tend to like to separate conspiracies into petty conspiracies(involving few people, and are therefore more plausible and in fact occur all the time) and grand conspiracies (involving many people over many years in many different supposedly independent institutions).  Should we add this to the article?  --Havermayer 03:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never heard of that... Unmitigated Success 09:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grand Conspiracies vs Petty Conspiracies 

message: The title of the above article was today changed from 9/11 conspiracy theories- it seems totally inappropriate to me that a neologism is being used in an article title- even if most people do think they are hoaxes, the usual term is "conspiracy theories" not "conspiracy hoaxes". Please see my comments on the talk page Talk:9/11 conspiracy hoaxes. Right angle 10:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been restored to 9/11 conspiracy theories. Any controversial renaming should be done through requested moves. Tom Harrison Talk 14:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[9/11 conspiracy hoaxes]]

message: Tag was placed by 70.8.56.126 on 11/29 yet there is no corresponding discussion alleging lack of neutrality. Tag removed. --Valwen 03:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality tag

message: This page is now filled with claims that are uncited, dubious, and POV toward pro-conspiracy theory edits. I am restoring the tags. Paragraphs with fact tags will be deleted in early January unless specific cites are added.--Cberlet 15:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page has long, rambling, uncited POV essays