Talk:Hezârfen Ahmed Çelebi

message: Does anyone know what means he used for his flight? --Xenophonos 16:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flew 

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 16:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: There must be some Turkish sources for this, right? Wilkins is the only contemporary source mentioned, and even he isn't properly cited. 128.114.132.235 (talk) 01:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Primary sources?

message: There is not any formal evidence about this flight nor the identity of ahmet celebi there are some variations about the wings and end of the story the legend lived due to the heavy pressure on istanbul citizens during reign of Murat IV. And 2 kms is not much if you consider he passes over the sea and the wind of bosphorus supporting his effords. But it is more logical to consider Lagari's work as the first aviation because it has more evidence and describes the rocket technology as we use today.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.183.223 (talk) 01:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Such fantastic supposition- as is often the case, depending on profound ignorance and fabrication -is a fine example of what to avoid when editing.Mavigogun (talk) 15:44, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  due to lack of reseach on ottoman achives.... 

message: I have found no sources for this event that do not stem from the writings of Evliyâ Çelebi.   His words very specifically indicate a flight over the channel and NOT the Golden Horn.   That said, EÇ does not describe the vehicle in any way; please site a source, if you have one.   If anyone has a reference to records of the award allegedly granted to Hezârfen Ahmed Çelebi by Murad IV, it would be productive.   I've added raw data for the locations indicated by EÇ, and comparative performance data for the most advanced foot launched glider to date.   Frankly, doing anything more than quoting EÇ would be editorializing -that said, I would like to add data regarding the practice location indicated by EÇ; the raw data would illustrate vividly the probability of verisimilitude to an experienced soaring pilot, but would be of little use to a layman without words of interpretation -which would violate the Wiki policy. Mavigogun (talk) 09:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Primary Sources/Raw Data

message: Ubardak(talk) speculates that the information in the Substantiation section may constitute original research.   I contend that all the data is directly related to topic and readily available- as such, no siting of resources is required- and that the topic is "Substantiation", not debunking.   I will add a reference for the Galata Tower measurements; all other measurements are from Google Earth.   Glide ratio information is a measurement of distance compared to change in height, and is a translation of commonly available information, not interpretation.   This topic may well deserve OR to be performed, such as a survey of the conditions necessary to make such a flight possible -including weather, training and flight characteristics of the aircraft; if a creditable source for information on these topics can be sited, I believe they would be topically appropriate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mavigogun (talk • contribs) 06:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the references cited in this article mention anything about Hezarfen Ahmet Celebi being "legendary", and one of the references (Arslan Terzioglu) clearly states that Evliya Çelebi personally observed the flight. Jagged 85 (talk) 17:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Evliya Çelebi did not witness the flight. The story is prefaced with the following: "Islambol içre olan hezârfen çemşid-kâr çeber-kâr pür-kâr ukalâ Aristo üstâdları beyân eder." And in the story itself, it says "Ve Hezârfen Ahmed Çelebi ... ÜskÜdar Doğancılar meydanına düşdüğü müsbetdir." The last word indicates that it was not a first-hand account. Ordtoy (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be a source for the quote used in the article. Obviously the original Çelebi text is not in English, so where did that English translation come from? Is from a published English translation? Is it a translation by a wikipedia editor? And if the latter, from what original is it derived from? Meowy 20:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: For better or worse, it comes from Terzioğlu article (ref #2). Incidentally the article on Lagari_Hasan_Çelebi needs to be changed in the same way as this one to reflect that it is a legendary and not a real flight. Ordtoy (talk) 20:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does your quote above in Turkish come from? There is a big, (like 6 or 7 volumes, I think) recent edition of Çelebi rendered/translated into modern Turkish script. It presumably contains the passage used in the article. It would be good if at some time a bilingual editor who has access to it were to check the current translation's correctness. Meowy 14:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I copied from the word-for-word transcribed edition of the Seyahatname. The passage in this article is the translation of the entire Ahmed Çelebi section. The only issue I see is that Terzioğlu doesn't make it clear that Evliya Çelebi was reporting what he had heard. The word "müsebet" means something like "It has been established that ...", which is not something you say when you see something for yourself. Ordtoy (talk) 17:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't understand Turkish. Can you translate what that sentence says into English? Jagged 85 (talk) 01:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Research?

message: The reference to someone flying is not in John Wilkins The Discovery Of A World In The Moone, Or, A Discovrse Tending To Prove That Tis Probable There May Be Another Habitable World In That Planet, London, Printed by E. G. for Michael Sparl and Edward Forrest, 1638, but in another of his books, Mathematicall Magick or the Wonders that may be performed by Mechanicall Geometry. In two books. Concerning Mechanicall Powers and Motions, London 1648. On p 204 of the latter work, Wilkins says, "Busbequius speaks of a Türk in Constantinople, who attempted something this way [flying]". [this book is in The Mathematical and Philosophical Works of John Wilkins to which is prefixed the authors life and an account of his works, 1708 - the 1802 edition of this book can be downloaded from www.archive.org.). I have tried to trace the Busbecqius (Ogier Ghiselin de Busbec, Austrian ambassador to Istanbul in 1554-1562) reference but it is not in Forster's English translation of 1927. However, not all of Busbecq's material is in the translations. There is nothing else in Wilkins about a Turk flying, and nothing about a brother of the person who flew. (Andelip (talk) 16:19, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a page reference given anywhere for the "Discovery of a World in the Moone" citation?   Adelip: please register.   Your edit was reverted, I believe, by a bot.   You might try adding your citation then removing the other as a secondary edit.   Depending on the context of the citation, Wilkins may -or may not- be a credible source; as documenting the history of the story, a worthy citation; as a validation of the events of the story, not credible- an important distinction. Mavigogun (talk) 05:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Wilkins 

message: The sentence "The glide ratio of the stated flight is 39.49:1" appears to be original research, certainly a supporting reference has not been given despite long standing concerns. There is something which purports to be a reference, however, it is not. It is simply a claim that data was found at Google Earth. This type of reference is akin to saying, "I read it in a book" or "A man in a pub told me." Without a proper reference this sentence is open to be challenged, and risks being removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.224.61.154 (talk) 04:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research

message: Is there any indication in the originating text that Ahmed Çelebi was actually of Turkic ancestry, or is this being assumed?Mavigogun (talk) 02:36, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He was Ottoman (Osmanlı tebaası). I don't have sources mention to his ethnicity. Europeans sometimes mentioned Ottomans as "Turk" at the time. There are information about ethnicity (milliyet) of prominent Ottoman peoples such as Vezir-i 'Azam, Şeyh-ül İslam, Kapdan, Baş-defterdar, Nişancı etc. But it's difficult to determine ethnicity of others. So we have to prefer Ottoman categories. Takabeg (talk) 02:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The only source is Evliya Çelebi's text.   Before making an assertion that may easily be anticipated to be controversial, a foundation - not just a conclusion - must be established.   Contemporary supposition labels him a Turk- all indications to me are that this is concluded as likely, not established from the source.   The complete source text needs to be reviewed here. Mavigogun (talk) 03:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  According :Category:Turkish people, This category includes Turkish citizens of Turkish ethnicity or descent. The claim must be WP:SOURCED in the article or the category will be removed. Now we cannot say Hezârfen Ahmed Çeleb is Turkish. If you have sources about his ethnicity, you can add sources. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 04:12, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turk? 

message: In wikipedia, :Category:Turkish people is used to be categorized to citizens of Turkey. About the Ottoman era, if one's ethnicity is proved with reliable sources, we can put :Category:Ottoman Turks, :Category:Ottoman Greeks, :Category:Ottoman Jews, :Category:Ottoman Armenians etc. Takabeg (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Category

message: The article on Early flying machines currently claims that Çelebi studied airship design, though no reference for this is given. So, two questions: a) Is it mentioned in any sources? and b) could his flying machine have been an airship? That would explain the long distance travelled. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Very difficult to find references. I archived this one (mediocre quality) which mentions Hezarfen in passing, and refers to human-powered wings, but no mention of anything resembling an airship. The other Celebi (Lagari) and his "rocket" is also mentioned.-Godot13 (talk) 19:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: All references to these brothers begin and end in the writings of Evliya Çelebi, with no supporting contemporary testimony.Mavigogun (talk) 22:23, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  airship experiments 

message: What proof for the claims in the article other than some sort of propoganda material.The article should be re-written  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kjbinukj (talk • contribs) 14:20, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The wording of the article makes clear the dubious nature of the... account.   It is not for us to feed conclusions, only to digest without significant transformation credibly sourced narratives.   In this way, we can present all lore about Santa Clause without stating "Santa isn't real" while retaining integrity of purpose.Mavigogun (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Proof

message: Hi Drmies, Any reason why you deleted the etymology of the name? It was perfectly fine. Thanks! 46.155.42.136 (talk) 16:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology of the name 

message: Turkish skeptic Taner Edis has written on this in 'T. Edis and A.S. Bix, “Flights of Fancy: The ‘1001 Inventions’ Exhibition and Popular Misrepresentations of Medieval Muslim Science and Technology,” in S. Brentjes, T. Edis, and L. Richter-Bernburg, eds., 1001 Distortions (Würtzburg: Ergon-Verlag, 2016). It can be downloaded here and looks useful for other articles.  you might be interested. Doug Weller talk 16:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A useful source