Talk:Tower Hill Memorial

message: If anyone wants to go to town attempting to construct lists of the ships listed on the Tower Hill Memorial for both WWI and WWII, there is a website with index pages here and here. That website has valuable pointers to other resources as well. Carcharoth (talk) 16:08, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  (sorry for the double ping) I think you will be putting the article up for review soon? Might it be best to decide how to handle the casualties and ships before that point? In terms of images, I think a WW2 name panel might be a good addition. Maybe RMS Lancastria panel names? We need to be careful with the 'greatest loss of life' bit, as some shipwrecks/sinkings had great loss of life but only a proportion of them were merchant navy seamen. Possibly slightly expanding the 'Battle of the Atlantic' ceremony sentences might be a way to bring in the name of some of the ships? Or failing that, a list article of some sort. I suspect a category is better, but am struggling to come up with a suitable name for the two categories (WWI and WWII). Carcharoth (talk) 11:30, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking of creating a list for the ships. There's more to say about them since their sinking (for those that were lost) is a significant part of their notability, and because we have a sizeable list of them. We can illustrate a list and give proper context. I think individual people's connections are more incidental, and we don't have enough of them to really sustain a list or category. Maybe we could find a way of working notable casualties' names into the list of ships?  HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:16, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The circumstances surrounding each ship can vary immensely. From being attacked and sunk with no survivors, to 'only' a few people killed (ship may or may not be lost), to all crew surviving (hence not on memorial, though the ship is lost). It is really difficult to work out how to handle this! Maybe ask at the ships WikiProject? FWIW (changing subject), there is a bit more on the WW1 unveiling ceremony that I have found, including the fact that the dedication was by the Archbishop of Canterbury (then Cosmo Gordon Lang) and how the unveiling of the memorial was reported by the IWGC. Carcharoth (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that can be handled with careful wording of the scope of the list and memorial, and with a "notes" column in the table (which could also house information about notable casualties). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:10, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've created a (very rough for now) List of ships commemorated on the Tower Hill Memorial so we have something in mainspace. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:46, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

text: Centenary of the sinking of the Lusitania was commemorated at the annual ceremony for 2015, see here and here. Carcharoth (talk) 18:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

text: It seems great minds think alike. I had mixed feelings about listing individual casualties, especially with there being so few who had Wikipedia articles (that we've found). I like the idea of including a list of ships, although with 72 so far (and probably more than double that just from the rest of the Empire ships  if and when somebody creates articles for them) we might have to be a bit selective and include only the most notable or the ones with the highest casualties or some other criteria. We could also have a separate List of ships commemorated on the Merchant Seamen's Memorial or similar. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Some more added above. Carcharoth (talk) 13:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists of ships 

message: Initial listing of ships where WW1 casualties are listed on the Mercantile Marine Memorial. The vast majority of the thousands of ships listed will not have articles. Only one listed so far - there will be more.
*RMS Lusitania
*SS Wimmera
*SS Athenia (1903)
*HMAS Berrima
*RMS Franconia (1910)
*SS Iberian (1900)
*SS Inkosi (1902)
*SS Malakand (1905)
*SS Prunelle (1874)
*SS Saint Ninian
*RMS Carpathia (known from the sinking of the Titanic)
*SS Californian (known from the sinking of the Titanic)
*HMHS Britannic (famous as sister ship of the Titanic)
*HMHS Glenart Castle (another hospital ship, big loss of life)
Carcharoth (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Centenary of the sinking of the Lusitania was commemorated at the annual ceremony for 2015, see here and here. Carcharoth (talk) 18:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: World War I ships

message: Initial listing of 72 ships where WW2 casualties are listed on the Merchant Seamen's Memorial. Possibly a category might work best here, but am not sure. To put this in context, there are several thousand ships named on the memorial, the vast majority of which will not have articles.
*HMT Rohna
*RMS Lancastria (massive loss of life)
*SS Athenia (1922)
*SS British Chivalry
*SS Tiberton
*SS City of Cairo
*SS Empire Brigade
*SS Uhenfels (listed as SS Empire Ability)
*SS Empire Broadsword
*SS Empire Adventure
*SMS Teodo (listed as SS Empire Airman)
*SS Empire Amethyst
*SS Empire Arnold
*MV Domala (also listed as SS Empire Attendant)
*SS Cotati (listed as SS Empire Avocet)
*SS Empire Baffin
*SS Empire Barracuda
*SS Empire Beatrice
*SS Empire Beaumont
*MV Empire Bede
*SS Empire Bell
*SS Empire Bison
*SS Empire Blanda
*SS Empire Bowman
*SS Empire Breeze
*SS Empire Brutus
*SS Empire Buffalo
*SS Empire Burton
*SS Empire Byron
*SS Gairsoppa
*SS Thurso
*SS Empire Cabot
*SS Empire Caribou
*SS Empire Celt
*SS Empire Chaucer
*SS Wahehe (1922) (listed as SS Empire Citizen)
*MV Empire Comet
*MV Empire City
*SS Empire Cloud
*SS Empire Clough
*SS Empire Conveyor
*MV Nottingham (1941)
*SS British Corporal (listed as SS Empire Corporal)
*SS Empire Cowper
*SS Empire Cromwell
*SS Empire Crossbill
*SS Empire Dabchick
*HMS Empire Dace
*MV Empire Dawn
*MV Empire Day
*SS Empire Defender
*SS Empire Dell
*SS Empire Dew
*SS Empire Dorado
*SS Empire Dryden
*SS Empire Dunstan
*SS Empire Eland
*SS Empire Endurance
*SS Empire Engineer
*SS Empire Eve
*SS Empire Explorer
*SS Calabria (1922)
*MV Abosso
*SS Yoma
*SS Abukir
*SS Clan Macarthur
*SS Umona
*SS Aguila
*SS Avoceta
*SS Avila Star
*SS Beaverford
*SS Empire Florizel
*MV Tulagi
*MS Rangitane (1929)
*SS Fingal (1923)
*RFA Darkdale
*MV Anshun (1930)
*MV Harpa.
As far as I can tell, much of the above comes from articles being produced on the A-E section of the 'Empire' series of ships. Plus some other shipwrecks and losses. Carcharoth (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems great minds think alike. I had mixed feelings about listing individual casualties, especially with there being so few who had Wikipedia articles (that we've found). I like the idea of including a list of ships, although with 72 so far (and probably more than double that just from the rest of the Empire ships  if and when somebody creates articles for them) we might have to be a bit selective and include only the most notable or the ones with the highest casualties or some other criteria. We could also have a separate List of ships commemorated on the Merchant Seamen's Memorial or similar. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Some more added above. Carcharoth (talk) 13:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: World War II ships

message: Not really important here, but I don't believe there is a wikipedia page for the UK Merchant navy association (MNA) mentioned in the article. Their website is at http://www.mna.org.uk/ if anyone is interested in adding them.
Ping me if you do. Thanks! Hydromania (talk) 05:11, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , I noticed that myself. Its not my area of expertise (my interest here is in war memorials rather than the merchant navy), but you could take a crack at it yourself. There's some good advice here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merchant navy association 

message: The only casualties (with articles) that I've been able to ascertain so far that are named on the Tower Hill Memorial are the following:
*Alfred Cheetham
*Bobby Atherton
There may be others to add later. Carcharoth (talk) 15:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Managed to miss one of the most obvious: Archibald Bisset Smith (VC). See here and here. Carcharoth (talk) 17:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think you will be putting the article up for review soon? Might it be best to decide how to handle the casualties and ships before that point? In terms of images, I think a WW2 name panel might be a good addition. I suspect there are a couple more people with Wikipedia articles, and maybe some non-notable 'famous' people (if you know what I mean) that get mentioned briefly in sources, but not much. It will take a while to track these down, so not more than a footnote, IMO. Carcharoth (talk) 11:24, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties 

message: The lead starts by mentioning 2 memorials (in bold, nonetheless). Then at the end of the lead, we're introduced to the Falklands War memorial. Then we read about the 2 World War memorials, and later we read a section about the Falklands War memorial. Should the lead start by mentioning all three memorials in bold, or, should the Falklands War memorial have a separate article? I'm not sure either are necessary, I guess the current wording makes the Falklands War memorial seem tangential. ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The later history section isn't exclusively about the Falklands memorial, and it's not an integral part of the Tower Hill Memorial so I think the coverage it gets is adequate. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's enough written about it to justify an article of its own; you couldn't say a lot beyond what's in this article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falklands War memorial 

message: Should the article have a note putting the casualty lists in context? I don't think it is entirely obvious to most readers that the list of casualties under each ship's name is only: (a) the merchant seamen on board the ship; and (b) those merchant seamen without graves. If a body was recovered, identified and buried, or the casualty died later on land (e.g. after rescue), then the name was not included on this memorial. More common is the case where the list on this memorial of those that died on any one ship, sinking, or incident on a ship, will not be the complete list. If those on board the ship included those serving with the army, air force or navy, then those casualties were listed on different memorials. If you had DEMs gunners on board, they would be listed as army (usually Royal Artillery) casualties. If there were lascar seamen on board or from the Indian Navy or the Indian Merchant Navy, they might be listed on the Lascar War Memorial or on the Bombay 1939-1945 Memorial Roll of Honour. What is probably needed is a note saying that the casualty lists are often not the complete casualty list for the ship, as the memorial a missing casualty was listed on depended on what organisation they were serving in. Examples of how this is handled in the articles on various ships include: SS Calabria (1922)#Monuments and relics, MV Abosso#Monuments, SS Yoma#Monuments, SS Abukir#Monuments and wreck, SS Aguila#Monuments, RMS Lancastria#Memorials, and so on. I am aware that we need a source explicitly stating this. I think this will be possible, and will try and find something. Carcharoth (talk) 14:11, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Good example of a ship that sustained casualties that is not listed on the Tower Hill Memorial is the HMHS Rewa. Four people died in the sinking of this ship (see here), but they were in the Indian Merchant Service and are listed in the Bombay 1914-1918 Memorial. This has stirred a memory of a source somewhere that compared the treatment of different 'nationalities' within the Empire by the way they were put on different memorials, comparing the 'British' Mercantile Marine commemoration with how the Indian, African and Chinese merchant sailors are remembered. That might be a way to include this in the article. But I have to locate that source first! Carcharoth (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This is inferred in the existing sources and the inscriptions enough that we can mention it. I think going into detail of who is commemorated where is diverging too far from the main topic, but I agree it's worth pointing out that not every merchant sailor is commemorated here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:47, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Context for casualty lists 

message: Brief note on the printed copies of the registers. Some libraries hold these. The Caird Library at the National Maritime Museum has a printed register of the Tower Hill Memorial compiled in 1928. That is nine volumes. Later printings are (presumably) updates to the names and numbers. It would be nice to get a photo of that somehow. There would have been a similar official CWGC register published for the WW2 memorial, but it seems that for the Merchant Seamen of WW2 there were other registers produced as well. See here for details of the 'ROLL OF HONOUR OF THE MERCHANT NAVY AND FISHING FLEETS 1939-1945'. A copy of this is on HQS Wellington (HQS Wellington is the headquarters ship of the Honourable Company of Master Mariners) and is described as 'Three red-bound books with the Merchant Navy badge in a glazed case with commemorative metal plaque'. There are copies at St Paul's Cathedral and Winchester Cathedral. If those are on public display (quite likely) it may be possible to photograph them. Volumes I and II cover the names listed on the Tower Hill Memorial (Merchant Seamen's Memorial) and Volumes II is similar memorials elsewhere. The Winchester Cathedral copy can be seen here. We have this photo, but it is not great (you really need a view looking down on the covers, which is difficult as the books tend to be open at a page). Carcharoth (talk) 15:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now tracked down the War Memorials Register entries for the three copies mentioned above of the WW2 Merchant Navy Roll of Honour (produced by the Ministry of Transport) plus the one in the photo (Hull) and have also found two more (Liverpool and Newcastle): Winchester, Hull, Liverpool, HQS Wellington, St Paul's Cathedral, Newcastle. Going back to one of the original links above, there is also a copy in Southampton at the Master Mariners' Club (based at the Royal British Legion). This was clearly acquired at a later date. Some ended up elsewhere later (the one that was presented to the National Union of Seamen ended up in an auction house sale of maritime history books). Each set would have had an inscription stating: "Presented to <...> by the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, <date>" (typical dates are 1958 and 1959). Somewhere in the government archives (if the records were kept) will be a listing of how many sets of these volumes where produced and who they were distributed to. There will have been sets distributed abroad as well (national libraries in Singapore and Australia have copies). I think the limit of what can be said in this article is that these volumes were produced, and to give a few (non-exhaustive) examples of current memorials (with entries in the IWM War Memorials Register) that were built to house and display these volumes. I will try and track down photos of the Liverpool and Newcastle ones (on public display in churches) and see if photos of the ones in St Paul's (who may not allow photography) and HQS Wellington can be sourced. Carcharoth (talk) 09:38, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

text: For the registers of the names on the Tower Hill memorials, it's certainly worth noting that they were produced and maybe a few words about where they were distributed (including the copy held at Trinity House because of its proximity and obvious relevance) but I'm not sure we need to say much more than that. The article is already quite long and I think it's important to keep it focused on this one (pair of) memorial(s). Other memorials deserve to be covered, but that's not what this article is for. We could easily create a home for it in a new article or list about commemorations of the Merchant Navy or include information about memorials in the main article Merchant Navy (United Kingdom). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:47, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. Am noting here the material removed, as it was a fair bit of work (and the information I pulled together there is not anywhere else in Wikipedia) so will probably want to try and retrieve that at some point. For now, I think there is more relevance than is immediately apparent (the direct relevance is the presence of the WW2 names on this memorial being reproduced in the first two volumes of the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (MoTCA) 3-volume roll of honour - that is a direct link between this memorial and all the locations around the country that have these rolls of honour). The production of memorial registers and their distribution was a big deal at the time, and this memorial differs from others in that it is in part covered by this 3-volume set produced by the Ministry of Transport, rather than the IWGC or a military organisation. I doubt that will be the case for any of the other CWGC memorials (and the third volume covering the other memorials bearing merchant navy losses and the merchant seamen with known graves handily illustrates that point). It is all part and parcel of the change in emphasis from the Mercantile Marine to the Merchant Navy. The issuing of a specific memorial scroll and medal illustrates the difference of this civilian organisation from the military branches (it is probably worth introducing the word 'civilian' in the lead to make sure readers realise this early on in the article, as some will take the reference to a 'navy' and to 'officers' to be military references). It is unfortunate that the current sources don't really pick up on these various aspects, though there is a mention in Boorman (page 149) of another of the (MoTCA) rolls of honour (in Aberdeen). Possibly Trinity House has more than just the standard CWGC registers (the modern ones) and might have the nicely bound ones still around. It should be relatively easy to visit and enquire at the same time as visiting to see the CWGC registers. Final point is that there is a regular service (the 'Shipping Festival Service') at Winchester Cathedral: , . That is indeed a bit tangential, but a good example of how one of those rolls of honour was incorporated into existing remembrance traditions. I will try and find sources suitable to putting some of this material in another article. Carcharoth (talk) 09:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. It all definitely belongs somewhere. There could be scope for an article about memorials dedicated to the Merchant Navy but at the very least the main article deserves a "memorials" section. Boorman (For Your Tomorrow) covers various WWII Merchant Navy memorials on pages 73 to 75. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:34, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memorial registers 

message: This may be the wrong place for this, but the relatives of every person named on this memorial (referring to the WWI memorial here) was entitled to the Mercantile Marine War Medal and would have been sent the Mercantile Marine memorial scroll. I tried to find a free image of a medal of one of those named on this memorial, but failed. This may all be better suited to a WWI section of the Merchant Navy (United Kingdom), but mention it here in case it may be worth including in a footnote of some sort (the wording on the scroll for example). Carcharoth (talk) 17:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medal and memorial scroll 

message: One final note (I am going to be away from the keyboard for a bit now!) is that the Red Ensign is flown permanently over the memorial site. I am not sure when this flagpole was installed, as it is in the WW2 section. The flag is visible in this photo (already in article). I think this should be mentioned somehow. Carcharoth (talk) 18:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't sure about this. It's not mentioned in any of the sources (probably because it's such a minor detail it could go unnoticed), but it's not original research because it can easily be verified through photos or by visiting the site. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:53, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Ensign flag 

message: Might be of use:
*Fury at City bankers' plan to hold Christmas parties in war memorial park (The Guardian, 2011)
*Tower Hill Memorial (Stonewest, restoration work from 2010-11, includes cost of contract)
The latter link includes a photo from high up in one of the buildings on the north side (probably 10 Trinity Square), so if it is possible to get a photo like that, it would help show the whole site and its layout clearly. Carcharoth (talk) 12:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: in case you missed this earlier. Carcharoth (talk) 10:48, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Another article is here. "Merchant Navy service is sunk by Council’s refusal to waive red tape". This cancellation of a full-scale official centenary event should be included, IMO. (The original Times article is behind a paywall, and I can't find any other newspaper articles on this.) Carcharoth (talk) 11:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The first one I'm ambivalent about. The photo is nice but there's no important detail there that isn't in the article already. The second seems too trivial. The third I agree merits inclusion, and I've added a couple of sentences on it to the "later history" section.  HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Couple of articles 

message: This may be of use: the Hansard record of the speech by Harry Gosling that started the process for the Mercantile Marine Memorial Act: MERCANTILE MARINE MEMORIAL. HC Deb 07 December 1926 vol 200 cc1923-5. Carcharoth (talk) 12:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and HL Deb 17 May 1927 vol 67 cc266-9, the reading of May 1927 in the House of Lords. Carcharoth (talk) 12:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hansard record of Gosling speech (December 1926) 

message: Today's my day at the WWI Forgotten Wrecks project so it reminded me of an earlier conversation :) and I thought I'd post it here so others can see it. This is simply FYI, rather than suggestions for changes.
Using the SS Algarve as an example, sunk in 1917 by UB-38 with 23 dead. 10 were Chinese who appear on the Hong Kong Memorial. The other 11 civilians are listed on the Tower Hill Memorial; this includes 8 Brits of one form or another, a Mexican, a Chilean and a Spaniard. The two RNVR gunners who operated the 12 pounder are listed on the RN Plymouth Memorial.
So for WWI, Tower Hill includes anyone who isn't covered elsewhere who died on a merchant ship or fishing vessel, regardless of nationality and wasn't in the Navy.
Robinvp11 (talk) 17:37, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that's complicated! I wonder if there's a way to distil that into one easily parsed sentence. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 07:43, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is :) but let me check something first.
Robinvp11 (talk) 15:44, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: So, further update; for WWI (not sure re WWII), the Tower Hill Memorial excludes deaths not considered 'war-related' ie collision. This causes a couple of problems; first, by the latter part of the war, most merchant ships carried a somewhat pointless 12 pounder, manned by two RN ratings, who went on the RN memorial regardless. So crew of 24 merchant navy seamen plus 2 RN all lost following a collision, only the 2 would be on a memorial. Second, a ship I'm researching for the Forgotten WWI Wrecks project; it was damaged by a mine, one person killed - they're on the Tower Hill memorial. Travelling at reduced speed (due to the mine damage), without lights and with channel markers removed due to the war, it collided with another ship, sank and eight crew members died as a result. They're not on the Tower Hill memorial. Conclusion; to paraphrase Chief Brodie, we're gonna need a bigger 'easily parsed sentence.'
Robinvp11 (talk) 17:48, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update on Casualties :) - Who's covered 

message: Currently, The Merchant Navy Memorial is labelled the Tower Hill Memorial which, in fact, is that alongside, marking the former site of public execution . The Mercantile Marine Memorial Act of 1927 and the Merchant Navy Memorial Act of 1952, linked by HM King George V's 1928 announcement renaming the Mercantile Marine as the Merchant Navy, combine to give The Merchant Navy Memorial its true name. The 1952 Act even states that the 1927 Act should be considered as part of the Merchant Navy Memorial Act by that name. 
The significance of The Memorial and of the sacrifice of those commemorated is lost by being denied its proper title, something felt all the stronger by their relatives and former fellow crewmembers. At the 1955 unveiling, such as the IWGC admission tickets for the 16,000 who attended; the Court Circular; 'The Radio Times' announcements of the live BBC-TV and Light Programme coverage and various newsreel reports, all referred to The Merchant Navy Memorial. 
I therefore propose amending the Wikipedia page to restore the proper title.  LtVen (talk) 15:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , the CWCG refers to it (the WWI memorial and WWII memorial together) as the Tower Hill Memorial. The proper names of both memorials are in the introduction in bold and anyone searching for those titles will be redirected here, likewise with Merchant Navy Memorial. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:21, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Merchant Navy Memorial