Talk:Chaldean Catholic Church

message: NO, neither is a subgroup of the other. The two names came into existence after the split of the Church of the East. Those who united with Rome were called Chaldeans, and the others were called Assyrians Wilhelm Baum and Dietmar Winkler: The Church of the East: A Concise History. London: RoutledgeCurzon, 2003. page 135. . The name Assyrians was actually given by missionaries after Chaldeans were named by Rome.
You have to realize that Assyrians are not an ethnicity, and they are not descendants of the Ancient Assyrians. Two arguments are usually presented to identify Assyrians as an ethnicity that descends from the Ancient Assyrians. 
First, they live in northern Iraq which was part of the lands of Assyria. However, you should know that Chaldea in 612 BC destroyed Nineveh and the Assyrian empire. In its place, Chaldeans set up a new empire. So, those people living in the north could as well be Chaldeans. No one knows how many Assyrians were killed in that war or how many Chaldeans moved north. Thus, the argument that Assyrians descend from Ancient Assyrians has no basis!
The second argument that is usually presented is that the name Suraya/Suroyo, which people from all the three church denomination use, comes from Aššurayu. Saying that the word "Suraya" (Syriac: ܣܘܪܝܐ) comes from the word "Assyrian" (Syriac: ܐܫܘܪܝܐ) is the worst argument that I have heard from a non-Chaldean. Anyone who knows Aramaic knows that there is a big difference between the letters (ܣ and ܐܫ). If you claim that the rest of the word namely (ܘܪܝܐ) is the same (which by the way means "of or from" in Aramaic, but it is not a stand alone word), then you should know that there are many more words that share the same letters (ܟܘܪܝܐ "Korean" is an example. Are Koreans Assyrians too!???). 
Let me tell you (and every one who's reading this) the real word that the name Assyrian comes from. In the Assyrian accent of Aramaic (Arabic: اثوري), Assyrians call themselves "Aturayee" (Syriac: ܐܬܘܪܝܐ or ܐܜܘܪܝܐ) (both read atoo-rah-yey) depending on the region they come from. This word, in Aramaic, means "the men of the mountains", which is where Assyrians are located. It has nothing to do with the word "Assyrian" that relates to the Ancient Assyrians. The word that have been hijacked, "Suraya" (Syriac: ܣܘܪܝܐ), has only one meaning which is "Christian" (i.e. The person who believes in Jesus Christ), and it is not derived from the word "Assyrian".--Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 23:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop posting same thing everywhere, see my answer here: Talk:Tel_Skuf#To_Mr._Iraqi_.28who_hides_his_original_identity_.28User:Chaldean.29.29  Shmayo (talk) 01:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Since you were jumping back and forth vandalizing any article that has the word "Chaldean" in it, I have deemed it necessary to ensure that your Assyrian Fascist views are clear to every one in Wikipedia. I have faithfully tried to clean all these articles from your Assyrian Fascism; however, you seem to be a die hard Assyrian Fascist who revert all attempts of common good. You have even succeeded in letting others (who are neither Chaldean nor Assyrian) see what kind of Assyrian Fascism you and your people are practicing in Wikipedia. --Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 02:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. This article is about denominations. You can take your ethnicity somewhere else. By making changes to this article, you're only exposing your fascist views.--Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 17:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the comment and try to understand. Do you not agree? -> Talk:Assyrian people Shmayo (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What is it that you don't understand, Shmayo? This article is about Chaldeans. Assyrians can discuss Assyrian People all they want. You are free to discuss your own people. Chaldeans are not interested in discussing Assyrians. --Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are Chaldeans a Subgroup of Assyrians? 

message: Chaldeans ARE a Subgroup of Assyrians, even former Patriarch Raphael Bidawid admits as such.
FACTS
1.FACT. The Assyrian Church of the East was ALREADY named as such LONG BEFORE a part of that church entered communion with Rome. So much so that the Chaldean Church was ORIGINALLY called the Church of Assyria and Mosul.
2. FACT. The Church of the East, from whence the Chaldean Church sprang was FOUNDED in Sassanid Assyria.
3. FACT. The term Chaldean today is NOT an ethnic term, it is purely denominational, and it was bestowed on those Catholic converts by ROME. The term had been dead for centuries (much like the Chaldeans themselves) since the 5th century BC.
4. FACT. Chaldean Catholics come from NORTHERN MESOPOTAMIA (IE ASSYRIA) and NOT from the far South East where the actual Chaldeans came from. They speak the same language as the Assyrians, they come from Assyria, they have the same names, the same genetic profile, and they were originally called Assyrians....so how on earth can they be not Assyrian???
5. FACT. Assyrian IS an ethnic term. Assyria existed as a named land into the 7th century AD, the Arabs in the middle ages 11th century AD referred to the NATIVE Christian people of Northern Mesopotamia as ASHURIYUN.The Armenians, Georgians, Russians did so too, from the Middle Ages. It is NOT a religious term, but an ethnic one. Many scholars accept Assyrian continuity, NONE accept Chaldean continuity!
6. FACT. The term Syriac actually means and originally meant Assyrian. Scholarly views and the Cinekoy Inscription prove this.
7. If the Chaldeans are not ethnic Assyrians, what ethnicity are they??? They are certainly NOT Ancient Chaldeans, so are they Arabs? Kurds?, Armenians? Greeks? Iranians?..Syriacs?..Syriac MEANS Assyrian originally.
8. FACT. Chaldean Catholics are ethnic Assyrian Catholics.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.12.105 (talk) 06:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Chaldeans and Assyrians are clearly the SAME people

message: Unless someone can provide accredited and mainstream academic study which proves a clear historical, ethnic, geographical and linguistic link between the modern Chaldean Catholics of Northern Iraq and the extinct Chaldean tribes of south eastern Iraq, this article should stay with the consensus that Chaldean Catholics are in fact north Mesopotamian Assyrians who converted to Catholicism in the 17th century AD. 
The name Assurayu/Assyrian/Assyria, (together with derivatives of those names such as Athura, Assuristan, Ator, Syria, Syriac, Ashuriyun, Assouri, Turyoyo, Suryoyo etc) have been in constant use to describe both the land and the indigenous people of northern Mesopotamia from the 25th century BC to the 7th century AD in terms of the land, and to the present when describing the people. While there is strong evidence of Assyrian Continuity, there is none whatsoever for Chaldean Continuity. The name was only established in the late 17th century AD, and then only as the name of a church and not a people. 
It is noteworthy that the term Assyria (and derivatives of that term) have been used constantly by the Assyrians themselves, in historical record, and by neighbouring peoples for over 4000 years, but in stark contrast the term Chaldean, when used to describe an ethnic group, wholly disappeared in the 6th century BC, and when used to describe a social class of Astrologers and Astronomers (not a race), disappeared in the 2nd century BC.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieDrood (talk • contribs) 08:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What's your point man? Assyrians have always moved in around Iraq. I knew a lot of ACOE Assyrians in Basra. Again, like what others said, Chaldeans are mostly extinct or have merged into other Mesopotamian populations. Modern day Sabbeans/Mandeans are more likely to be descended from ancient Chaldeans. Hate it to break it to you, but you guys are still Assyrians - You originate from upper Mesopotamia (Zakho, Teskof, Ankawa, etc - I'm sure you know these villages). And even how you look sort of shows your true identity - Many "Chaldeans" are light featured with brown hair, pale skin and hazel eyes. How the hell would someone from the scorching southern Iraq region look like that? Beats me.  Meganesia (talk 08:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnic Chaldeans?

message: The reference to the events of October 2010 are completely incorrect. The Church at which the massacre occurred was not a Chaldean Catholic Church, rather it was the Syriac Catholic Cathedral.Irish Melkite (talk) 06:23, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Erroneous Info

message: I tried to find a page for the rite on the Vatican website, but found only scattered references, including the link already in the relevant section on instruction for receiving communion in another rite. Restored a category, added a link on a parish in Michigan that has additional information on the Chaldean Catholics. I also removed the dead link: (*Catholic Churches (In German)). I'll look to see if the page is archived elsewhere. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 21:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chaldean Christians which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 19:15, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk  23:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic Church naming conventions RfC 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Removed POV banner from August 2019. Persecution may be executed by collectives of private individuals as well as proper states. The "criminal elements," as the concerned party described, are substantial in size, capacity, and actions and have provably increased in size and intensity in the aftermath of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, as evident in the sources I have added to the appropriate section. Please refrain from using the section to construct any narrative. Pbritti (talk) 21:59, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV concerns regarding persecution 

message: This article is unclear on this point. (I'm not sure whehter the modern Roman Catholic Church considers Nestorianism to be heresy.) Acwilson9 (talk) 09:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: the modern CCC is not Nestorian.  The article refers to confessions of faith and Catholic confession of faith, etc - those would be anti-Nestorian.
Nowadays the modern RCC doesn't like to call anything a heresy.  But it is. --142.163.194.106 (talk) 02:15, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the modern Chaldean C. Church still considered to be Nestorian? 

message: Philip Abraham is wikilinked to an Anglican bishop in 'newfoundland' who is not the same person. --142.163.194.106 (talk) 02:20, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  metropolitan Philip Abraham (later history of the CC) 

message: why are the names of the eparchies changed?  E.g. the Chaldean Catholic Eparchy of Mar Addai of Toronto is changed in the link to St. Addai Chaldean Eparchy of Canada, which is not its name.  Why? --142.163.194.106 (talk) 02:52, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  names of eparchies changed 

message: There has been a flurry of reversions to this article in the past few hours. I just added to that trend by reverting Paul7steps's multiple recent edits.  I have no reason to doubt your edits are good-faith or accurate (I am totally unfamiliar with this topic), but I can tell you that you need a source besides "Approved research by the Chaldean church with certified references" and that it doesn't help Wikipedia to repeatedly insist that "If you don't agree, please contact the Chaldean church." 
In general, a review of recent edit history suggests to me that this page could use some level of protection. With the religious, ethnic, and political interests involved, I worry edit warring and unsourced contributions will continue. Hoping someone more expert can chime in. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:20, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for opening this discussion. I too have concerns about the edits by . Those edit summaries give the appearance that the user is editing on behalf of the Chaldean Catholic Church, whether in an official capacity (where WP:PAID is a major concern) or an unofficial one (where WP:COI needs addressed). I encourage Paul7steps to discuss the situation, either here or on their user talk page. However, if the edits continue unabated, then some level of administrative action will be necessary: semi-protection of this page, (partial) blocking of the new user, or a combination thereof. —C.Fred (talk) 15:57, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple reverts