Talk:Red Ensign/Archive 1

message: ;2+�;���scist comment==
I have cut the following from the article:
:The Red Ensign is a cherished symbol, it was used from 1867-1964 AD.  It is not a symbol of hate, in any fashion.  I strenuously object to the above reference, and question the motives of the individual who posted this "reference".
:For a full account of the process that changed the usage of the Canadian Red Ensign (pre-1964 AD), to the Canadian Maple Leaf (post-1965 AD), please consult the following site,
:"The Great Canadian Flag Debate"
:http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-73-80/politics_economy/canada_flag/
:The adoption of the present Maple Leaf Flag was highly controversial in 1964 AD, and still is 40 years later.  Many people in Canada today (pre-domiantly in English-Canada), have never accepted the Maple Leaf Flag, and still consider (and use) the Canadian Red Ensign as their "Canadian Flag".
I have moved ArmchairVexillologistDon's addition to the talk page because it is improperly worded for the encyclopedia (especially the use of first-person pronouns). However, I do support ArmchairVexillologistDon's protest.  We should delete the neo-fascist comment unless it can be supported with a citation or two. Indefatigable 00:08, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

message: :There is A Red Ensign on the podium. Correct? But which one? One can not see the Canadian Coat-of-Arms.
:Next, if it was the Canadian Red Ensign,.... SO WHAT?
:The Celtic Cross,
:The Scottish Flag,
:The Welsh Flag,
:The Northern Irish Flag (with the Union Jack in the Canton),
:and the present day CANADIAN MAPLE LEAF FLAG,
Don., this is a straw man argument. No where have I cited the photograph of Fromm at the podium as evidence regarding the red ensign. Rather, it is in the Paul Fromm article because it was taken at a "friends of the British National Party" meeting as well as because of the neo-nazi flag on the extreme left side of the photo. It's fallacious reasoning for you to choose a photograph and present it as if it was my evidence in the red ensign argument and then point out the inadequacies of the evidence when I never used that picture as evidence regarding the red ensign. Indeed, I didn't even notice the red ensign in the picture until you pointed it out. AndyL 05:26, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebuttal 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States
::This is not relevant.AndyL 22:20, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Grand Union Flag (1775-1777 AD) was derived from British East India Flag

message: _____
:I'm not sure what you mean by posting all this;  I just note that if that's what you believe, then the Maple Leaf must be the first tricolour in history with two colours. - Montréalais
______
Montrealais,
Please review,
French Republican Tri-colour (Blue-White-Red)
http://flagspot.net/flags/fr.html
http://flagspot.net/images/f/fr.gif
Peru Flag (Red-White-Red) Tri-colour
http://flagspot.net/flags/pe.html
http://flagspot.net/images/p/pe.gif
Canadian Maple Leaf (Red-White-Red)  Tri-colour
http://flagspot.net/flags/ca.html
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca.gif
A tri-colour Flag is composed of THREE REGIONS (not necessarily three colours).
A bi-colour is similarly composed of TWO REGIONS.
Vertical Regions' (up-and-down) are called Pales.
e.g., Early Quebec St. Jean Bapstiste Flag (ca. 1840)
 
http://flagspot.net/flags/ca-qcsjb.html
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-qc{j2.gif
(a vertical bi-colour, with Green-White Pales)
Franco-Ontarien Flag (1975 AD)
http://flagspot.net/flags/ca-on.html#Ontarois
http://flagspot.net/images/c/ca-f-ont.gif
(a vertical bi-colour, with Green-White Pales, with a White Jean d'Arc Fleur-de-lis, and a Green Trilium, blazoned on the left and right Pales, respeectively). 
Horizontal Regions' (left-to-right) are called Fesses.
The first Revolutionary Tri-colour was used by Protestant (Lutheran) Dutch, who declared the Independence of the Republic of the United Provinces of the Netherlands in 1582 AD.   The Dutch War of Independence (1581-1648 AD) resulted in the Spanish Netherlands breaking away from Spain.
Their Revolutionary Republican Tri-colour was known as the Prinsevlag,
http://flagspot.net/images/n/nl-princ.gif
::Don, 1) please sign your posts. You can do this by typing 
~~~~at the end of yoru contribution 2) please try not to include so much white space in your posts since this results in your contributions taking up a lot of space while having minimal content. Please try to write in paragraphs. 3) please stay on topic. Your response above is completely immaterial to the question of including a reference to the use of the Canadian Red Ensign by fascist groups. Montrealis was making an aside that your previous post was irrelevent and you respond by taking up his aside! Please stay with the program. AndyL 23:09, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rebutal to Montrealais over Canadian Maple Flag "First Bicolour"

message: AndyL,
Would you like Jimmy ("Jimbo" ) Wales to review this disagreement as well?
Eh?'''
"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales"
 
jwales@wikia.com
How about you e-mail him, from him to see how you could be harrassing me?
ArmChairVexillolgistDon
Don, do you actually have any argument for why the reference to fascists groups should not be included under the Canadian section of the red ensign article? You have said you will revert "ad infinitum" but you have failed to respond to my statements above. The only conclusion I can draw from your inability to put forth an argument is that you have no argument and therefore have no justification for reverting the article in the future. If you have an argument then make it instead of trying to change the topic to an irrelevent discussion of whether or not the Canadian maple leaf flag is a tricolour. This is not Talk:Maple Leaf flag so that question is of no interest here. As to whether you should start harassing Jimbo I don't think that's in your interest but I'm certainly not going to stand in your way. As to my advice regarding white space, signing your posts and staying on topic I put to you that following my advice would help you but if you want to continue to harm your cause by making incomprehensible posts then that's your business. AndyL 23:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL,... I am following the rules.  You can not dictate my content

message: One of Fromm's sites has this page with the article The Red Ensign - Our Flag. So yes, while one may also find Austrian and other flags at Zundel rallies you also find a large number of red ensigns. Why? Because the far right movement in Canada, led by Paul Fromm, has instituted a campaign to revive use of the flag. I'm not saying this should be the focus of the article but there is absolutely no reason not to mention it. I see no reason to exclude this fact from the article. The desire to protect the reputation of the red ensign by excluding this fact is, frankly, POV. AndyL 21:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Direct Rebutal of AndyL's claimed Facist links to Red Ensign

message: It is a gross misreading to interpret the word "our" in that context as referring to the neo-nazi movement.  Eclecticology 00:37, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)
AndyL contends that the Facist groups in Canada are using the Red Ensign as their symbol, in an attempt to revive its usage.  I say so what,...?  Why is that note-worthy in the least,...?
The Aryan Nations use the present Flag of the USA (please look below),
http://images.google.com/images?q=naziandoldglory.jpg&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi
Should Wikipedia link the present day USA Flag to Facist groups?
Well?
Additionally, whilst we are at it, the KLU-KLUX-KLAN regularly used the USA FLAG in parades in its hayday of the 1920-30s, should we link the USA Flag to todays KKK,...?  They most likely still use the USA FLAG.
http://www.cozine.com/archive/cc2003/01100212.jpg
What about the CHRISTIAN CROSS.  KKK people's "hall-mark" is the burning a CHRISTIAN CROSS.  Should Wikipedia OVERTLY LINK the Christian Cross to KKK block-heads,...?
Well,...?
http://members.internettrash.com/wom/kkk.jpg
Sincerely, ArmchairVexillologistDon
:Again, you're using faulty logic, the US flag is the official flag of the US thus most Americans use it in order to demonstrate their patriotism etc so the fact that the US Aryan Nations use it is not notable given the flag's widespread use. The Canadian Red Ensign has not been Canada's official flag for forty years, and use of it is highly limited - there are very few organised groups who fly it, in fact, the only organised group I know of that does wave it are Fromm's groups as well as the Canadian Heritage Alliance (a neo-Nazi group based in London) and the Northern Hammerskins (a Canadian skinhead group). Indeed, I'd be interested if anyone can point out examples of non-racists and non-neo nazi groups in Canada using the Canadian red ensign in the twenty first century. The only examples I am aware of of the flag being waved in the past four years are by far right/neo-nazi groups. Given the highly limited use of the Canadian Red Ensign today it is signficant to note that its use is being advocated by far right/neo-nazi groups since there are few, if any, others who still use that banner. Don, I challenge you to give me examples of non-fascist, non-far right groups waving the Candian red ensign (as opposed to the Ontario or Manitoba red ensigns) in the last four years. As for the cross, any article on cross burning would, of course, mention KKK association and indeed the article does so so you've actually helped make my point with that example - thank you.AndyL 01:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Eclecticology:  The Aryan Nations use the USA Flag, should Wikipedia reference that?

message: Paul Fromm is a Canadian neo-Nazi. His group advocates the use of the Canadian red ensign. The fact that the article in which they make their argument is not explicitly does not change the nature of Fromm or his organization. AndyL 01:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL: "Our Flag" Website says nothing Racist

message: Again, you're using faulty logic, the US flag is the official flag of the US thus most Americans use it in order to demonstrate their patriotism etc so the fact that the US Aryan Nations use it is not notable given the flag's widespread use. 
The Canadian Red Ensign has not been Canada's official flag for forty years, and use of it is highly limited - there are very few organised groups who fly it, in fact, the only organised group I know of that does wave it are Fromm's groups as well as the Canadian Heritage Alliance (a neo-Nazi group based in London) and the Northern Hammerskins (a Canadian skinhead group). Indeed, I'd be interested if anyone can point out examples of non-racists and non-neo nazi groups in Canada using the Canadian red ensign in the twenty first century. The only examples I am aware of of the flag being waved in the past four years are by far right/neo-nazi groups. Given the highly limited use of the Canadian Red Ensign today it is signficant to note that its use is being advocated by far right/neo-nazi groups since there are few, if any, others who still use that banner. Don, I challenge you to give me examples of non-fascist, non-far right groups waving the Candian red ensign (as opposed to the Ontario or Manitoba red ensigns) in the last four years. As for the cross, any article on cross burning would, of course, mention KKK association and indeed the article does so so you've actually helped make my point with that example - thank you.AndyL 01:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Don, please do not put your comments in the middle of other people's comments, that's not considered acceptable on wikipedia since a) it's rude and interrupts the flow of an argument. This page is not a two person dialogue but is meant for the community as a whole. b) it makes it difficult to follow who is saying what. Please put your comments following someone else's comments. You can copy and paste a quotation that you are replying to but do not cut up someone else's original post. Also, please try not to use so much bolding. AndyL 01:52, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL:  You are not the sole Judge of what is "Faulty-Logic"

message: Thanks for acknowledging that Fromm is a neo-Nazi. The point is it is relevant to point out in the article that the most visible groups today advocating the use of the Canadian Red Ensign are neo-Nazi groups. AndyL 01:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL:  Paul Fromm embracing the Red Ensign is not relavent

message: Don
How could identifying those groups existing today (2004) that advocate a return to the Canadian Red Ensign not be relevant? AndyL 01:49, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL:  The Royal Canadian Legion still uses the Canadian Red Ensign

message: Is it the official position of the Royal Canadian Legion that the Canadian Maple Leaf be replaced as Canada's national flag by the Canadian Red Ensign?AndyL 01:55, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL:  Is Replacing the Maple Leaf with the Red Ensign a Facist idea?

message: I formally request a THIRD-PARTY DECISION on deleting your Facist Links to the Canadian Red Ensign.
ArmchairVexillologistDon
Don wrote:
"No. The Royal Canadian Legion has no offical position in that regard. The Royal Canadian Legion is the most highly respected Canadian Organisation that holds the Red Ensign in very high regard, and views it as a cherished symbol of Canada."
So then, the only organisations which call for the return of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag are neo-nazi and fascist groups. Why should that not be mentioned in the article? AndyL 08:12, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL:  I formally request a THIRD-PARTY DECISION on deleting your Facist Links

message: AndyL,
One does not need an "Organisation" to have patriotism and love of a Flag.  Canada is not a society of Flag-wavers, we are more reserved about such things.  We tend to talk more about these things in private.  Just because you have found 2 Neo-Nazi groups who have embraced the old Canadian Red Ensign, does not give them the "majority stake" in this cherish Canadian symbol.
I put it to you that your reasoning is very biased, in the extreme.  You wish to paint the Red Ensign as a "dead Flag" that only "Neo-Nazis" care about.  This is not the case.   Their are alot of ordinary Canadians (more than you know) that still consider the Red Ensign "Canadas Flag".
I openly request, a THIRD-PARTY DECISION, on the editing and/or complete removal of your Facist link to the Canadian Red Ensign.
ArmChairVexillologistDon
Don, please don't make insinuations about me I'm just interested in facts so just answer the question: What organizations, besides those associated with Paul Fromm, advocate the readoption of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag?AndyL 16:54, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL: Ordinary Canadian Individuals Love the Red Ensign

message: Don, I've put in a request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. If you agree to mediation then go to that page and add a comment under my request (don't make a new heading) stating that you agree to mediation. Please sign your post properly, ie with four squiggle marks ~  in order to make it easier for the mediator to contact you and refrain from your habit of bolding everything you say as if you're more important than everyone else. AndyL 17:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation request

message: See this blog entry Red Ensign: Flag of Cranks. The following far-right nativist and neo-nazi groups now advocate the adoption of the red ensign and Canada's national flag:
*Autonomous Citizens of Canada - Niagara a "European heritage" anti-multiculturalism group. 
*Canadian Confederate Friendship Society a white supremacist outfit
These groups are in addition to the aforementioned Canadian Heritage Alliance (neo-Nazi group), Canada First Immigration Committee/Canadians for Foreign Aid Reform/Canadian Association for Free Expression (Paul Fromm) and the Northern Alliance (neo-Nazi). AndyL 18:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: More on modern Canadian red ensign usage

message: AndyL writes,
Don, that's your POV and POV has no place here. 
Oh really?  So YOUR POV AndyL, is the ONLY POV that is acceptable on Wikipedia,...?
We deal with facts and the fact is that neo-nazi groups in Canada are promoting use of the Candian Red Ensign and its reinstatement as the national flag. 
I beg to differ.  Wikipedia deals with RELAVENT FACTS, RELIABLE FACTS, and IMPORTANT FACTS.  I contend that the linking of the old Canadian Red Ensign to these Neo-Nazi/Facist "people" is a trival, pointless, and UN-NEWS WORTHY observation, for an on-line Encyclopedia.
You have failed to provide any reason why this should not be mentioned in the article particularly as you have failed to name any non-fascist groups that advocate the readoption of the Canadian Red Ensign as the state's official flag. AndyL 21:24, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: AndyL:  You have NO monopoly on Point-of-View

message: AndyL,
I have just read the Mediation procedure, linked below,
Mediation Procedure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediation
To quote...
Mediation is a process of alternative dispute resolution in which a neutral third party, the mediator, assists two or more parties in order to help them negotiate an agreement, with concrete effects, on a matter of common interest; lato sensu is any activity in which an agreement on whatever matter is researched by an impartial third party, usually a professional, in the common interest of the parties.
Frankly, I see our respective positions as diammetrically opposed.  Thus it would seem likely that the Red Ensign page will be forever protected WITH A DISPUTED CAVEAT (in the page heading).
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 05:21, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many groups in the US that advocate the stars and stripes as the US national flag so the action of one or other group is not significant. There are few groups in Canada that advocate the adoption of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag. That all of them are neo-nazi or fascist groups is notable. As for your other comments please desist from personal attacks. Many people had problems with Paul Vogel and his unreconstructed anti-semitism, that's why he was banned, for you to accept his criticisms of others as a fact worth repeating does not do much for your credibility or say much for the quality of your judgement.  AndyL 04:32, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "One more thing,  I openly advocate here," Perhaps your advocacy is interfering with your ability to edit according to the rules regarding Neutral Point of View? You advocate for the red ensign, hence you do not wish to see it associated with something disreputable like fascism, hence you object to any mention of fascist groups advocating the red ensign's return not because to say this would be untrue but because it is contrary to your POV orientation of advocating for the flag. AndyL 05:02, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: ArmChairVexillologistDon reads Wikepedia Mediation Procedure

message: If this page is ever unprotected, could whomever does it leave a note on my talk page so that i can add an entry about the aussie red ensign. The bellman 11:22, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
Hello Bellman,
I really like the Australian and New Zealand Flags alot.   Their respectively National Flags (Blue Ensigns) are both elagant and beautiful designs (in my POV).  I also love their Red Ensign counterparts,
Australia Red Ensign(Merchant Ensign of the Navy)
http://flagspot.net/images/a/au-red.gif
New Zealand Red Ensign (Merchant Ensign of the Navy)
http://flagspot.net/images/n/nz_civil.gif
Proposed 1964 Canadian Red Ensign (Possible new National Flag)
http://scaa.usask.ca/gallery/flagdisplay/images/web/panel13-3.jpg 
I really love this "Star Constillation" theme.  The Australia and New Zealand Red Ensigns have the Southern Cross, and in kinship the (proposed) Canadian Red Ensign has Big Dipper.
I sincerely hope that this dispute between AndyL and I can be worked out, and your contributions Bellman, would be a true pleasure to read.
Sincerely,
ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 15:39, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australia