Talk:Sigismond Thalberg

message: To a native English speaker, who I am inclined to believe is the target audience for this encyclopedia, this article almost immediately stands out as contrived.  The article repeats itself numerous times, and is FULL of comma splices of the sort an American or British schoolchild would make before advancing to high school.  The article is practically unreadable because of the poor organization of its content, and the repetitive nature of that jumbled content.  Numerous instances of time-consuming copyediting are needed, which I will undertake soon.
To any person with a knowledge of composers and the pecking order of their importance, the article immediately stands out as a laughably amateurish and biased hagiography.  The author (for there certainly and obviously is one primary author) has done Mr. Thalberg a great service, of which Thalberg would most certainly be proud.  Utterly ridiculous in tenor, it is notable that a quick "Find" command in one's browser results in "over 100 results" (sic) for the search term "Liszt;" this is an unfortunate and glaring tell-tale sign of the author's intent (by comparison, a similar search of the Franz Liszt article returns "4 results").  Also notable is the fact that this article is quite a bit longer than the articles for Liszt, Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, et al.
Liszt apparently said that Thalberg's music would be all but forgotten; and in 2009 the instances of performance, recording, and distribution of Thalberg recordings are rare indeed.  Why, then must the casual encyclopedia reader be subjected to an entire article of one author's strange preoccupation with a Liszt-inferiority complex?  The Liszt article can be written with either no mention of Thalberg or a passing mention; however this particular Thalberg article written in this particular peculiar way would hardly exist if it weren't for Mr. Liszt.
There are relatively few standalone achievements of Mr. Thalberg to speak of, and this article does Thalberg's actual achievements a great disservice by discouraging reading with such length disproportionate to his accomplishments, and with such single-minded repetitiveness.  Also, the obsessive mention of Franz Liszt is embarrassing and serves as a continual reminder to any casual reader that he or she is in fact, reading an encyclopedia on the internet that anyone can edit.  The repeated splicing of commas is the icing on the amateur cake, so to speak, and the entire thing needs to be remanded and edited, and in the meantime until these changes are affected, the article should certainly be tagged.
It is over-cited.  The author wants to make a serious point here.
Unfortunately, because Mr. Thalberg is infrequently mentioned in modern times, this sort of travesty can take place relatively unnoticed and undisturbed for months; this 'dusty' Wikipedia article, as it were, is a biased pet-project of which, if a comparable mess were made of Sergei Rachmaninov's or one of the above-mentioned and frequently-looked-up composers' pages, would not stand very long.  And so tag & edit I shall...User:Blue Alert  19 February 2009
: First: No. No Liszt article without mentioning (or passing mentioning) Thalberg can be considered complete. Thalberg was Liszt's main rival and much more successful for a long time. In those times it was exactly the opposite of what you insinuate here: Liszt was for a long time preoccupied with Thalberg whereas Thalberg was popular and had the critics on his side. Today, perception and evaluation changed: Thalberg is not even a member on the modern pecking order of importance. Almost all people know Thalberg via Liszt (me either). He is nowadays only known as "the other pianist" in Liszt's era, so he is "worth" mentioning only in relation to Liszt and not as a must-know composer of his own. I think, that is the reason why Liszt is mentioned here so often.
: Second: The length of an article should not correlate to your subjective ranking of importance. Wikipedia is no printed encyclopedia where printing space has to be considered. If there is more material and more to write than in Rachmaninov's article then it should be done. 109.193.3.231 (talk) 00:56, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absence of Neutrality, Gorged With Peacock Terms, Poor English Grammar

message: this article: "Until the end of Liszt's stay in Vienna Thalberg did not perform at all. Nevertheless, he was still praised. In a review of Liszt's own charity concert on April 18, 1838, for example, he was described as the winner of the "piano duel" of spring 1837 in Paris."
while dana gooley's liszt the virtuoso:
"Sigismund Thalberg, a pianist of uncertain origins – though reputedly of noble but illegitimate birth – burst on the Paris scene at the end of 1835 and was quickly hailed in some quarters as the world’s foremost piano virtuoso. Liszt, then in Geneva with the Countess Marie d’Agoult, probably had not yet heard Thalberg play, but responded all the same with a long and damaging article about his compositions in the Paris Revue et gazette musicale. Thus began a rivalry, much inflamed by the press, that culminated in the duel staged in 1837 by the Princess Belgiojoso. Its outcome has been variously assessed, but what everyone remembered was the Princess’s airy bon mot, “Thalberg is the first pianist in the world; Liszt is the only one”." 86.108.49.61 (talk) 16:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just happened to see this entry. Putting some words to it, Gooley cites a large amount of contemporary sources which show that indeed Thalberg was the winner of the duel. His claim , however, Thalberg was merely liked by the dilettants, is wrong. The famous bonmot, actually saying nearly nothing at all, was not put by the Princess Belgiojoso but by Marie d'Agoult. It was neither "remembered by everyone". The rivalry was not "inflamed" by the press but solely by Liszt, by the way. He was from the side of the press heavily criticized for this.80.144.121.43 (talk) 10:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Piano Duel

message: Mr. Scholar,
Surely someone so intelligent and educated as yourself can tone down the hagiographic text a little? This is a very biased portrait of Thalberg and needs to be thoroughly cited and verified before I can even think about finishing touches like grammar and style. For example, did you really need to write "He was a God when sitting at the piano"? This entire article is currently written in a very unencyclopedic style and I would urge you to make an effort to improve that. 
Kind regards, K. Lásztocska 12:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Schumann wrote: "Er ist ein Gott, wenn er am Klavier sitzt.", which is in English: "He is a God when sitting at the piano."
Greetings.80.145.39.246 17:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV and peacock terms 

message: I actually don't mind to be criticized, but it does not make sense when it is overdone. When, for example, I wrote, Liszt was feeling as if he was himself the exiled Napoleon, it is exactly this which he wrote in his letter to d'Agoult from April 29, 1836. The “missing” reference had therefore already been given. Another example is Clara Wieck's diary. Everything I wrote is to be read there. The fact, that Liszt claimed, all of Thalberg's music was completely worthless, is known by anyone who read his review. It is written in explicit words there. The fact, that Liszt, for the purpose of gaining applause from his audience, distributed free tickets, might be shocking for you at first sight. But it is quite well known from his own letters. In similar ways I could comment all of the rest of it. I took everything from sources which are not disputable. To this, everything I wrote has already been published in books and essays, which can be taken as WikiSources, thereby obeying the strictest rules. In the still missing parts of “Thalberg’s tours” you will see, by the way, that until now it is only an impression of the beginning of his career which I could give. During the following years, Thalberg was still increasing. As a general comment, I’d like to say: “Be welcome in the 21th centuries musicology!”80.144.163.190 18:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have already been welcomed to the field of musicology, thank you very much. I do not doubt that you have sources for much of this article. What needs to be done is to properly cite the sources, ideally with footnotes. In case you haven't done this before, what you do is to add (author, title, page number) after the statement you're citing, and then at the end of the article type , which will produce a complete and very classy-looking list of all references and citations. See WP:CITE for a better explanation than I can give. K. Lásztocska 19:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was the best laugh I've had in ages, scholar; congratulations. You should become a comedian someday. You asked Lastochka to critique you and then you complained that it was too much—best comedy I could ask for. You are so funny! —  $PЯINGrαgђ  21:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I shall come back to the foot-note buisiness at a later phase. Following the rules after which the creative part of my mind works, I must write a complete text (the biographical part, at least) and do it rather fast (because of reasons of the form). In further steps I correct mistakes which always happen. (During the first phase I mainly quote from memory.) Adding footnotes is correlated with the optical layout of  the article. For this reason it will be better done in a later step. Regarding the chapter "Compositions", I suggest to do an extra article instead. Writing this, would be more easy and much more fun for me than the biographical part, although I must learn some of the English terms of musicology before. Fortunately, I can take some of them from your article about the violin-sonata D Minor by Brahms. Brahms played a fantasy by Thalberg at his debut in Hamburg, by the way.80.144.108.115 10:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Missing" sources. 

message: I put the first three of my chapters back to the Thalberg article. In comparison with their former versions, I added some details as well as many sources and references. The sources are in the footnotes quoted with short titles, the meaning of which will be clear after the complete bibliography has been added. According to my own taste, it is somewhat overdone, not to say very unusual, to give so many references to an encyclopaedia article, but it will be your taste which will count in the end. So, please have a look at it and tell me, of which kinds your impressions are. In one case I kept the "citation needed" hint. The reference can be found in the Leipziger Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung, but I had not enough time to search for it. A further exception is my statement, Thalberg's "Moise" fantasy was one of the most famous concert pieces of the 19th century, which has been left without source. Wanting to give a reference for that, would be ridiculous (I'm sorry for it.) since it is a fact which is known by everyone with knowledge of 19th century's piano music. I could as well try to give a reference in order to prove that Clementi was a famous composer.
: I have tried to English your contribution. Also I have toned down a bit your antipathy to Liszt; you don't have to do Liszt down to assert Thalberg's qualities (which I agree with you are substantial).--Smerus 13:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is not the least antipathy at my side, but I'm just writing the article according to the sources. So far as you may believe, the behaviour shown by Liszt in spring 1837 was "as usual", please give sources for it. For the moment, I'll revert the article to my former state.88.77.226.178 17:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is English Wikipedia and should be written in conventional English. Don't revert those who are trying to help you make a useful article. --Smerus 18:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, we all have trains of thought and maybe they move at different speeds. If Anon decides he wants to contribute (or, as in fact seems to be the case, translate the German WP Thalberg article) bit by bit, (without deigning to reveal even a decent alias), he will have to get used to being edited bit by bit. The primary purpose of (English) WP is not to allow us to unroll our great thoughts at leisure for the benefit of the ignorant masses, or to translate German WP in parody-style, but to communicate information in good English.--Smerus 22:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No he will not have to get used to being edited bit by bit, because he has said that he will work on it and when he is done we can edit it—as a further note I will revert all your hinderings of this scholar, who is in fact Günther Protzies so I hope you're happy about knowing who he is at least. As for parody-style, that can be fixed when he's done. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  22:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   $PЯIПGrαgђ , this is just bad behaviour. As you seem to be a mate of this 'scholar', you perhaps are not as impartial in your approach to this matter as WP would require you to be. But I, like anyone else, who wishes to edit any article in WP, have the right to do so by the nature of the website. We are not to be discouraged by persons claiming themselves, or claimed by others, to be greater or better 'scholars' than we are.  Nor do you, or anyone else, have the right to revert he edits of others because some third party is alleged to have 'scholar' status. Some of us may even be 'scholars ourselves, even if we do not pompously arrogate to ourselves privileges as a consequence.Smerus 06:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: (To the most respected colleague Smerus.)There must be some rules in every game. Without being arrogant in the least, it has turned out that yours truly is the person with knowledge is at this place. So far as you want to "English" my writing style, please do it and be welcome. But before changing the sense, please ask me before. During your previous attempts you not only added statements without any foundation in sources and deleted important sources, because you did not like them, but put lots of mistakes to the article's text besides. To give some examples for it, the question, whether Thalberg or Liszt was the winner of the "piano duel", was in my version left open since an encyclopaedia article is not the place for debating about it. (In Gooley: The Virtuoso Liszt, p.52, it is shown from many sources, that Thalberg was the winner.) Your version, "Liszt was the leading piano virtuoso", is a typical "Peacock-term", whereas my version, he was regarded as that, was correct. The added "until then" cannot be skipped, after it was shown, just two paragraphs before, that something had changed. Thalberg's concert on April 16, 1836, was not a "solo concert", but it was his first own concert in Paris, just as I wrote it. (He did not play alone but several further artists took part besides.) The note in Ménestrel from March 13, 1836, was not written by Berlioz, and the "Society of the Parisian conservatory concerts" is the "Society of the Parisian conservatory concerts" and nothing else. In the second sentence of chapter 1.2, there was no need to pretend, "all sources" would say this or that. In fact, there were several authors who wrote books and essays, and nobody knows, whether they had taken any sources at all. In chapter 1.1, it was not "due" to Thalberg's illegitimate birth that his parents' names were not called, but it was "for reasons" which are difficult to explain. Fétis did not claim, he knew both parents, but according to his article he knew Thalberg and his mother as persons. Some parts of your "Englished" versions had already been "Englished" before, by the way, and this by people who might be suspected to be rather fluent in your language. It is therefore my pleasure that I can learn very much, not getting only a single version of correct English, but many of them.80.144.105.39 10:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for clearing it up, scholar. :) Might I be so bold as to suggest that in your writing you sound quite like Liszt himself? ;) —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  17:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Who knows? I'm thinking of an old essay "Rosemary's Babies" by Glenn Gould, in: High Fidelity, December 1970. It is concerning a British lady Rosemary Brown who was during the 1960s for several times posthumously visited by Liszt. He was still composing, and some of his posthumously composed works have already been published. Humphrey Searle, a great Liszt expert, found them very interesting and absolutely authentic. Unfortunately, Mrs. Brown's posthumous piano teacher was neither Liszt nor Thalberg, but only Rachmaninov. So, maybe, I might turn out to be F.L. in disguise after all. But, returning to Thalberg again, I put a further footnote to the last paragraph of chapter 1.3. I hope, K. Lastochka will now be satisfied.80.144.155.250 13:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Returning to Thalberg 

message: There is a problem concerning Thalberg's name. I recently found that in English publications he is rather often called "Sigismund" instead of "Sigismond". An example is the dissertation of Ian Glenn Hominick. There is even an American "Sigismund Thalberg Society", founded by Daniel L. Hitchcock. (No, he is not the Hitchcock. That Hitchcock was working with Irving Thalberg.) On the other hand, in Gooley's The Virtuoso Liszt, written in Cambridge, Thalberg is called "Sigismond". It therefore seems that he is "Sigismund" in America and "Sigismond" in Great Britain. Since his true name was actually "Sigismund", it might be the best solution when we take this version for our article too. What do you think about it?80.144.155.250 09:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, I don't really see how we know "his true name was actually 'Sigismund'"—and as long as Sigismund Thalberg redirects here, wouldn't that eliminate confusion? I don't really care which name is his "true" name, I should say, so I'm not really in favour of one or against the other. However I have never heard or seen "Sigismund"… —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  18:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to see an example for Thalberg being called "Sigismund", try the link "Biography" at the article's end. (There are several errors included.) Thalberg's true name was the name given to him by his parents, and there is no doubt that he got a German name. Since the version "Sigismond" does not exist in German, his true name was "Sigismund". He is also called "Sigismund" in the book From Paris to Peoria by R. A. Lott which was published in Oxford. At moment, the majority seems to speak in favour of "Sigismund". ("Sigismund" is pronounced like "Zeagismoond" or "Zigismoond", by the way. The "oo" ist taken rather short (like "look") in most parts of Germany and rather long (like "doom") in Bavaria and Vienna. In Vienna, the first "i" in "Sigismund" is also rather long.)80.144.67.84 09:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I know how the German is pronouced (I'm de-4 by userbox code), but I didn't know that Sigismond was not a German name. In that case the arguement (?) for Sigismund is better, but I still don't really care one way or another which one it is—you could have a registered user move it to Sigismund Thalberg or just leave it and either is fine with me. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  23:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thalberg's name 

message: schonberg is an ass
The quotation from Schonberg about Thalberg's "little bag of dated tricks" can be regarded as typical example for the kind in which it is by some thought about him. It will be a good idea, to take this as starting point for a chapter about Thalberg as composer. But the form taken by Schonberg is in no sense precise. (It is for this reason polemic.) Better examples can be taken from C. F. Weitzmann and Lina Ramann, but there is a problem to be solved. Their writing style was very fuzzy. It is therefore a hard task, finding an adequate translation. It would have been the best solution, if someone of you went to a library in order to get English editions via interlibrary loan. It is for sure that those editions exist, and it would have been not more than one or two weeks to get them. Unfortunately it seems to be against the habits of English Wikipedians to get experiences of this. The problem must therefore be solved in a different way. 
In the following, I'll give the German originals as well as suggested translations in which the rather complicated style with long sentences is reproduced. Please, look at it and correct it in a way in which the structure of the original sentences is kept. Ramann's sentence "inzwischen längst verallgemeinert" is problematic because it is somewhat hard to guess what Ramann wanted to say with "verallgemeinert". It can be "generalized", but more likely it is meant in a sense that the effect had become commonly used. "inzwischen" is "meanwhile" or "in the meantime". "längst" is "for a long time" or "a long time ago". But I have no idea how to connect both in order to get "inzwischen längst". "in the meantime for a long time" would sound rather bad in my ears. For this reason I took only "for a long time". Instead of "which above and beneath, through all octaves, were rushing around a melody" it would be better to take "which were above and beneath, through all octaves, rushing around a melody". But the "huge" distance between "were" and "rushing" might be looking somewhat irritating for an English eye. "Mittellage" is the medium range of the keyboard, but I don't know which word is usually taken by English pianists. "übertönend" means that the melody can be distinctly heard as main part of the music. The question whether it is "drowning" as my dictionary says, or whether there is a better word for it, is open. To repeat the task, the exact sense as well as the structure of the sentences must be reproduced, as far as it is possible. Taking "Google translation" would be no solution at all.
Ramann:
*Dieser Effekt, inzwischen längst verallgemeinert, bestand aus harfenartigen Arpeggien, welche eine Melodie oben und unten, durch alle Oktavlagen umrauschten, während sie selbst in den Mittellagen ruhig und jene übertönend ihre Weise fortsetzte, - in jenen Tagen ein pianistisches Wunder, der Glanzpunkt der „Moses-Fantasie“ Thalberg’s! Die Ausführung desselben besteht aus der bekannten Arbeitsvertheilung an Finger und Hände, nach welcher, während die Hände kreuzweise die fortlaufenden Passagen ausführen, die Daumen im Moment des Ablösens der Hände abwechselnd die Melodie vortragen.
*This effect, for a long time to have become common, consisted of harp like arpeggios, which above and beneath, through all octaves, were rushing around a melody, while the melody in the medium ranges was for itself, calmly and drowning those, continuing its tune, - in those days a pianistical miracle, the brilliant climax of Thalberg's "Moise-fantasy"! The execution consists of the well known partition of work to fingers and hands, after which, while the hands are crosswise executing the running passages, the thumbs - at the moment of relieving one hand with the other - are by turns executing the melody.
Weitzmann:
*Seine Bravourstücke, Fantasien über Melodien aus Moses und der Donna del Lago von Rossin, über Motive aus Bellini’s Norma und über russische Volkslieder wurden durch den eigenen, glänzenden Vortrag ausserordentlich beliebt, sie bearbeiten jedoch ihre Themata stets auf eine und dieselbse Weise, und ihr immer wiederkehrender Haupteffect ist es, die Töne einer Melodie der mittleren Oktave des Claviers bald vom Daumen der rechten, bald der linken Hand spielen zu lassen, während die übrigen Finger Arpeggien dazu ausführen, welche den ganzen Umfang des Claviers einnehmen.
*His bravura pieces, fantasies on melodies from Rossini's Moise and the Donna del Lago, on motifs from Bellini's Norma and on Russian folk-songs, became extraordinary favourite by his own, brilliant execution; they, however, treat their subjects always in one and the same way, and their always returning main effect is, to let the tones of a melody in the medium octave of the keyboard be played now by the thumb of the right, now of the left hand, while the rest of the fingers are in addition executing arpeggios, which are filling the whole range of the keyboard.
80.145.51.242 09:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thalberg's little bag of dated tricks 

message: The revision was written for those Wikipedia users who are actually interested in Thalberg. Those others who still prefer playing a role or riding a hobbyhorse will better read a different text.80.144.166.16 09:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still don't appreciate these snide remarks of yours which are so obviously directed at me, Mr. Scholar. The new section is fine, although I would consider making the picture (the music example) a little smaller. K. Lásztocska 12:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Another one of those curious sayings: "Wer sich den Schuh anzieht, dem passt er." ("Who's putting on the shoe, it suits to him.") But concerning the image's size you're right. The example should be smaller and the distance to the text should be the same as between subsequent paragraphs. I must still figure out how it is to be done. If you want to do a helpful job, please take your Photoshop once again. In the bottom of the example, right of "ben marcato il canto", there is a rest (8......) belonging to the next line of the piece and somewhat confusing. So far as you can find a free minute in the course of your innumerable occupations, you may like to take it away. For the case, you have even more free time: I'd like to add a further example, from Liszt's Norma-fantasy. You can get the score from here. I need from p.13 the first line with the large arpeggios.80.144.170.113 09:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately I am unable to do any further work with images at this time: I am using a different computer now and I do not have Photoshop installed. Apologies; maybe someone else can help. K. Lásztocska 16:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome to create an account for yourself, most reverend sir (User:Günther Protzies is still as of yet uncreated here). Then you will be able to upload your own images. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  01:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. It would be much more convenient to work together if you had a talk page, contribs list, etc. like the rest of us. K. Lásztocska 02:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision of "Thalberg as composer" 

message: Quote "While Thalberg was in the late 19th century only recognized as "Old Arpeggio", the imposing command of counterpoint in the fugue-finale of his Norma-fantasy had been forgotten" I found this misleading as it wasn't really a fugal finale, but was only like 20 bars of contrapuntal writing. 130.56.71.133 (talk) 10:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Fugato, then? Schissel | Sound the Note! 11:59, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thalberg's composition 

message: His full name - which we usually include very early in an article - is usually given as Sigismond Fortuné François Thalberg , or some variant thereof.  See Musicsack (which lists a number of sources- not sure which one provides the middle-names). Any thoughts? Schissel | Sound the Note! 11:58, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full name? 

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