Talk:A Canticle for Leibowitz

message: Oh, dear. So what? So 'it has been'. By whom? And why is their opinion important? And why is Waugh important? And how he is even remotely relevant to a dystopic novel?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 22:28, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, that is a remarkably strange comparison. CfL is not remotely a satirical social comedy, even if it contains a few pages of wry humor. 104.6.64.197 (talk) 17:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh wow! I so agree with the first sentence and so totally disagree with the second. You might not realize that the Catholic Church still exists in our society and arguably was an even greater presence in America in 1959 (when mass was still spoken in Latin around the world). Did you miss that part? Such as the comparison of a shopping list to a holy relic? The canonization of a saint?(that's still going on, too!) and the Catholic "saint's" name being categorically Jewish? CfL is deeply social satire, it's just social satire of a thousand year-old institution rather than contemporary British class structure. In comparison, Waugh wrote books with "a few pages of wry humor", while CfL defines "satirical social commentary"!  Sheesh! Cuvtixo (talk) 19:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: It has been compared favorably with the works of Evelyn Waugh

message: I think a fair number of people will come to this article looking for assistance with the Latin/Hebrew/German in the book. How much (if any) of that should be covered here? Can anybody take a stab at
for example? Thanks,
:Tarheelcoxn 09:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad" which means "Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One." Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 05:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ergo, the single most famous sentence in Judaism.132.181.160.42 (talk) 04:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting rendition of the Name, though. A daled and a slashed line? 192.12.88.7 (talk) 02:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion of other languages used in the book?

message: One would think so (see above). I don't have my copy here, but the Hebrew graphic does not quite say SHEMA YISROEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHOD.
It says SEMAH [sin for shin] YISDOEL [daleth for resh] then the daleth+apostrophe ["chupchik"] in lieu of the usual letters for the ineffable name (said, when said, as the circumlocution "adonai" or "adonoi," "lord" ("adon")--I think, "their lord" or to the orthodox, except during legal prayer, "adeshem," not unrelated to "hashem," "the name"), which I don't know to comment on; then ELOKAINU, which would be the orthodox circumlocution for "eloheinu," "our God" ["el," god, as in beth-el, etc.]; then the daleth+chupchik again for the ineffable name/adonai, then ESOD [sof for ches].
the daleth+apostrophe is a standard way of referring to the ineffable name in writing, as is a hey+apostrophe. Mezukak (talk) 23:19, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, the Hebrew is written by the Wandering (or Old) Jew, not the Brothers of St. Leibowitz. Then again, Hebrew letters may themselves change, as they have. I notice the "tav" in the word representing "echad"; that's supposed to be a "heh" (as it is in the 1997 edition of A Canticle for Leibowitz) That edition also gets the "resh" in Yisrael right. 192.12.88.7 (talk) 02:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, exactly. which makes it purposefully not an Orthodox Jewish prayer, rather than a mistake by the monks of Saint Leibowitz. Because it doesn't quite fit in either tradition, but does bring across the essential idea in a "secular" manner. Cuvtixo (talk) 20:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Not Your Father's Shemah

message: In the Analysis section, it talks about the Rachel interaction with Zerchi possibly being in his mind.  I think that the article needs to note the fact that Brother Joshua thought he saw Rachel smile (or was it nod?) well before this incident.  Not sure where it fits in, though.
:It's sad that any analysis section has been deleted, along with the very major element of Rachel.  This is a great example of that quote: "Wikipedia isn't attempting to get better; it's attempting to get smaller.  The ultimate goal is to make it a site that nobody ever has to visit because all it will contain are things everybody already knows."  68.83.72.162 (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Rachel alive?

message: I have seen the sequel even translated in bookshops. It should be mentioned that it was continued or published. -- Error 02:22 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:Done. If you know who finished it, please add this info to the article.
----
Oh, Christ, that's a future tense.  Gah! Meelar 05:28, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Translations

message: I read the article and was also struck by "dark comedy" as being inappropriate -- but obviously it's been discussed here.  I have inserted a proposed compromise, that acknowledges the book's dark comedy while not confining it to that genre (I would argue that much of the final third, especially the interactions of the abbot with Mrs. Grales and the woman who is eventually euthanized, is far too serious for it to have been intended as satire or comedy by Miller).  I think dark comedy is appropriate in describing many scenes in the book, but saying it is a dark comedy is an inadequate description of the book.  If my compromise is insufficient, can we agree on another wording that at least removes the bald assertion that the novel fits perfectly into that category? Jwrosenzweig 19:13, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Black comedy reprise

message: One of the quotations includes this line: "Sending at least three Bishops, at least."  Is the duplication in the original, or did it get added when the quotation was imported to the article?  My copy of the book isnt' readily accessible so I can't volunteer to check it. JamesMLane 07:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotation duplicate?

message: Brother Francis was from Utah, but that actually implies that the Abbey is not.  Other points about the location, it's within striking distance of Denver, which puts it east of the Rocky Mountains (not Utah), and close enough to the plains that the nomads aren't travelling through other individuals territories much.  My suspicion is that it’s actually near Albuquerque, but somewhere in New Mexico is probably all we can definitively say.
:The map in St. Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman, I believe, clearly places the monastary in Utah. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is incorrect.  The map places it just west of the Rio Grande, in northern New Mexico.Minguo 04:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The textual clues in the book seem to indicate that it is near somewhere like Los Alamos or White Sands, and that it is near a Junction of two major highways one of which would eventually (maybe via another highway) take you to Salt Lake City, but not on what would be considered a straight line.  IIRC, the book made a comment along the lines that for some reason the route was the easiest way to get to Salt Lake City. Plbogen (talk) 04:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The abbey is clearly in New Mexico. It's on a major ancient highway leading from El Paso north toward Utah, and the third book indicates that it's within audible distance of a missile range -- to all appearances, a revival of the White Sands Proving Ground. The implication is that it's not far from Las Cruces. RandomCritic (talk) 20:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

text: firstly, the first part of the first book places it 600 years after the nuclear armageddon, not thousands of years (good grief, you accuse others of not reading the book?) Also I think Miller also wants to point out that the previous civilization was so thoroughly wiped out that geography in relation to those annihilated cities is moot.  Perhaps with the exception that Leibowitz and his wife Emily were completely separated and died with no knowledge of what happened to each other. In other words, the geography is purposefully left vague. Cuvtixo (talk) 21:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Abbey was not in Utah. 

message: "The third section, Fiat Voluntas Tua, takes a strong stance against euthanasia (assisted suicide)" - is this really true? The main character (the abbot) certainly does, but the book itself seems to be rather objective.
: I think you can tell that the author himself is against euthanasia, as the abbot wins the intellectual debate with the girl. She only does the act because of the police officer's intervention. Lord Rama 04:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  He did not win anything -- he bullies the poor girl to get his way. 134.161.227.84 (talk) 21:09, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indeed. She clearly wanted to get out of the car repeatedly, and it was only when the police stopped the abbot from preventing her from getting out that she was allowed to. From the writing, it seemed like the author was *for* euthanasia, as he did not present any strong arguments against it, and many arguments for it -- and then used the one single character that was not only unlikable, but actually detestable to present the anti-euthanasia case. 67.212.105.36 (talk) 03:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Euthanasia

message: The Plot summary section is way too long. Despite what appears to have become a common practice in WP synopses for novel and film articles, WikiProject Novels explicitly states that plot summaries "should be short and an integral part of the article" and "should be no more than three or four paragraphs." A good example of this per the Project is seen in Atlas Shrugged. Consequently, I propose CfL's summary be similarly condensed.—  Jim Dunning  talk  :  03:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I finally get around to it. The plot background and Lux Fiat have been streamlined. I'm working on the other two parts.Jim Dunning | talk 02:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I was trying to think of a way to insert the Poet, but it was tough keeping the treatment relatively small. I've got an idea on how to do it concisely, though. By the way, two of the three parts? I recall only Lux Fiat (although his eye is mentioned in Voluntas). Glad there's someone else out there interested in this article.Jim Dunning | talk 22:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the third part, the monks read the works of the fabeled 'St. Poet' and ponder on whether he was a real person or just a legend. Nice work on the summaries. Czolgolz 07:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Plot summary

message: This article has some of good material in it, but suffers significantly from disorganization (it reads as a hodge-podge of random thoughts). WikiProject Novels has some excellent ideas for article content and structure at WikiProject Novels/Style guidelines that may help us out in improving the article further.
Here's some of the relevant structure suggested by the guidelines and comments vis-a-vis the article as it stands now:
*Lead section — seems fine given the article's current content, although not everything in the current Lead is supported by the content of the Body of the article. This will expand as more content is added to the Body (reference to Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman should be added for example).
*Publication history — should be added since this is significant. Started 12/2/07.
*Plot introduction & summary — as mentioned above, this should be drastically condensed. Done 12/1/2007.
*Characters — could be added. Added 12/02/2007.
*Major themes — some of this exists already in the Literary significance & criticism section, but the existing copy appears to be WP:OR. Although interesting to read it is virtually unsourced. It would be great to expand this to cover a discussion of themes. OR removed and sourced material added. 12/2/07
*Style — there's little reference to this area now.
*Film, TV or theatrical adaptations — I don't know if there are any, but this should be checked out and added if appropriate. — Added!
*Reception — obviously this is a key area since CfL's won a few awards, including the Hugo. Perhaps the Allusions/references from other works section could be merged into this, but that section is completely unsourced and looks like OR. Most of Allusions removed and Reception section started 12/2/07.
*Footnotes and/or References  — reformat cites so they are consistent with those of other articles, like so — 
::References All set.
::Footnotes and citations All set.
: — Done!
:::1. ^ Bisson, Terry (1997). "A Canticle for Miller; or How I Met Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman but not Walter M. Miller, Jr.". www.terrybisson.com.
:Also, much of this article is unsourced and that needs to be fixed as soon as possible. Most unsourced material either reffed or removed. 12/2/07.
Finally, the current Quotations section should go. It is unencyclopedic and is just a form of trivia. It might be of interest if CfL had famous quotes that had migrated into mainstream culture (like "grok" from Stranger in a Strange Land), but there is nothing. — Removed!
:As I review this some more, isn't this whole section WP:OR? The contributor decided what to put in — it doesn't reference third-party sources for selection of the quotes as noteworthy. This whole section should be removed unless someone can come up with a source.  —  Jim Dunning  talk  :  04:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Plot summary has been drastically streamlined, cutting the word count almost in half. Not every plot twist and turn is needed, per Novel Style Guidelines, leaving only the higher level events and characters. Ideally, the story line should be condensed further, however, material can be added if it's needed to support copy in other sections, such as Major Themes, Style and Reception.Jim Dunning | talk 19:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article restructuring

message: I think this article is ready to move to GA status and am soliciting help from any skilled editors. A number of revisions have been made in the past few weeks to position it for a successful nomination process. Any assistance in making changes and/or suggestions will be appreciated. Thank you.Jim Dunning | talk 03:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Nomination 

message: Hi, I will be GA reviewing A Canticle for Leibowitz . I have not read the article yet so expect about two days before I write my review. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 15:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Review

message: I really enjoyed reading this - so much so that I'm going to hunt down the novel.  Unless I'm missing something, this article meets Wikipedia:Good article criteria, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction), and Wikipedia:Writing better articles.  I suggest trying to take it to Wikipedia:Featured articles as I think it would stand a chance; of course, I could be wrong on that. Really good job. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Pass

message: This sounds like a fascinating article; Science Fiction isn't really my thing, so when I mentioned it to my boyfriend he threw his hands up and said "I can't believe you've never heard of it!"  Sigh. :)  Anyway, in preparation for PR and possibly FAC, here are some suggestions to think on:
*I'm not a big fan of mentioning the novel's reception ("Since then A Canticle for Leibowitz has had new editions and reprints issued in paperback and hardcover more than 40 times..." etc) and its sequel before the plot summary.  I would rather see it go straight from background/inspiration (including minor, initial publication history) to the plot summary.
*The plot summary is huge.  Ideally, each "section" of the novel would only be two or three paragraphs long.  The first paragraph of "Fiat Homo" could be cut down drastically, for example.  Not much would be lost in the narrative if it were to say something like "In the 26th century, Brother Francis Gerard discovers the entrance to an ancient fallout shelter containing "relics", such as handwritten notes on crumbling memo pads bearing cryptic texts resembling a 20th century shopping list.  He soon realizes that these notes appear to have been written by Leibowitz, his order's founder."  The how isn't as important as the what.  This way the wanderer, mentioned in the last sentence of the section, doesn't need to be mentioned at all, and the irony that today's shopping list = tomorrow's relic is stated rather than implied.  Leibowitz's canonization and its process also takes a long time to describe; that it was delayed by the discovery of the relics but eventually completed is all that is needed.
*The second section of the plot is okay, but it's the third section that tries to stuff too much in.  Is the "mercy camp" and the "battle of wills" integral to the plot?  It's mentioned later on in "Themes", after all.  What about the long description of Zerchi's death -- working free the skull, etc?  It's fascinating and beautifully recounted, but can it be cut down?
*I'd be interested in seeing a more comprehensive and fleshed out "Themes" section.  I'd move this bit: "Scholars and critics have explored the many themes encompassed in the novel, frequently focusing on its motifs of religion, recurrence, and church versus state" to the Themes section and work from those examples, especially in regards to religion.
*Expansion and/or integration of the "Latin phrases in the text" could be interesting.  Would this work in a "Symbolism" section, perhaps?  I'd leave "Adaptations" and info about the sequel for last since it is of less importance than Themes, Literary Significance, etc.
I think that's it for now.  As for picky MOS-ness, everything seems to be formatted quickly from what I can see, including the refs.  The images all contain proper documentation.  The lead section will need updating when more thematic elements are added to the article, and you should also consider adding the sequel and adaptation there to satisfy WP:LEAD.  Thanks for the interesting read!  Let me know if you need any clarifications or further comments. María (habla conmigo) 17:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is already a (rather silly) article on the Latin: List of Latin phrases in A Canticle for Leibowitz dbw (talk) 19:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good suggestions, Maria. Bear with me as I editorialize. Canticle is the greatest American novel to come out of the Cold War. (Its British counterpart is Nineteen Eighty Four.) It is very curious that it has yet to be filmed. You under 40s out there, it is very important that your generation educate itself on how the USA and the USSR were armed to the teeth for 50 consecutive years, with enough firepower to extinguish civilisation everywhere. Walter Miller served on bomber crews in WWII, and was revolted by what he was a part of. Part of his revulsion led him to convert to Roman Catholicism, but that did provided no solace. He could not complete another novel, and committed suicide last decade.132.181.160.42 (talk) 04:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments and suggestions 

message: I've removed this article from inclusion in WikiProject Texas since none of the story's events takes place in Texas. The question was raised on the project's Talk page about a month ago, and although there has been only a single response since then, it appeared to be in agreement.Jim Dunning | talk 10:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject Texas

message: This is an automated message regarding an image used on this page. The image :File:A Canticle For Lebowitz.jpg, found on :A Canticle for Leibowitz, has been nominated for deletion because it does not meet Wikipedia image policy. Please see the image description page for more details. If this message was sent in error (that is, the image is not up for deletion, or was left on the wrong talk page), please contact this bot's operator.  STBotI (talk) 14:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: An image on this page may be deleted

message: the link to Terry Bisson's article (reference 18) is a dead link. I tried editing it - but couldn't find the right place (sorry, a bit of a wiki novice). If someone could enter the new link it would be great. Here it is:
http://www.sff.net/people/TBisson/miller.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.182.147 (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  editing reference 

message: No one has mentioned one of the most intriguing themes, that the story parables the bible. Leibowitz is the false prophet while Mrs. Grales is Mary (mother of Christ) and Rachel is Christ returned to earth for the apocalypse.69.159.66.38 (talk) 22:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources? That strikes me as a possible reading, but certainly not the only one. I certainly wouldn't say Leibowitz is the false prophet. Anyway, you need reliable sources to back such a claim up. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Themes

message: Long time scale scenarios are worth comparison and contrast with other works that exist in long time scales.  Such works have a unique sensitivity to fine energy gradients, in the time and energy trade-off under the action.  It is probably no coincidence that Miller set "A Canticle for Leibowitz" 600 years after 20th century destruction.  After all, the Koran devolved to the Islamic prophet Mohammed 600 years after Rome fell.   That number of centuries is distinct: it is the atomic number of carbon, six.  It implies the Koran is in a sense an update of the religions that emerged from Rome, including the Christian.  At a shrewd guess, the Koran brought the revelation, now understood in depth, that even tiny molecular interactions take place in the stellar cosmology, which we call the electrodynamics, and the long-run penalties for ignoring that can be extinction.
Going backward, earlier works exist dating back to the Papyri of Ani, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and others.  Subsequent works too, fit into such analysis.  Magna Charta is an example.  Since the printing press, though, such works are too numerous to count.SyntheticET (talk) 00:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would strongly advise reading WP:TALK and WP:NOR. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:23, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time scale 

message: Looking at articles about novels that attained FA on this list, I notice that Uncle Tom's Cabin separates out info about its major characters from the plot summary. I think doing that here would improve this article. Sub-sections about Leibowitz, Benjamin, and Mrs. Grales/Rachel would be particularly useful. Sharktopustalk 19:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  I'm in the process of doing this for two other articles at the moment, one of which is a novel.  I'm hoping we can all work together on this. Viriditas (talk) 08:33, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characters 

message: We should confirm or correct some first edition data including the cover image. If we confirm then ISFDB needs correction for it displays a different cover image (whose own description does not adequately ID it) and gives pub date October 1959 with some support. (See the Notes field of .) --P64 (talk) 22:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early edition dates and covers 

message: Years after having heard bits of the story on NPR, I finally read the book. It is a good book, and the truth is I'm probably more prepared to understand it than I would have been thirty years ago. But right from the start I came across an intriguing error--or not--that has me thinking. The characters that the wandering "pilgrim" makes on the rock are (in the library edition I've read) clearly a "lamedh" and an "ayin." Later the Abbot identifies them as a "lamedh" and a "sadhe." Neither one of these interpretations would lead one to anything like "Liebowitz," which would have to end in a "tsamekh." The visual difference between "ayin" and "tsamekh" are enough to drive me nuts--but the Abbot's definitely wrong.
Which leads to a weird question: Whose error is this? Miller's? It's possible: these could be amateur Hebrew mistakes, and he makes another one later when he puts a definite "tsamekh" in the middle of the name Eleazar (which I'm guessing would be a "zayin"--confused yet?). Ah, but what if it's deliberate? What if the Abbot's mistake is intentional in the author? The monks of the order don't know everything about the texts in their keeping and misunderstand much of it. Witness Francis' discovery regarding blueprints! Maybe the Abbot is perpetuating an error about Hebrew orthography. Maybe the order would have made more progress faster if they had gotten their pronunciation correct! 
Or maybe I just have better lighting. Without access to a monk-powered arc lamp, I had to hold the book up to the sunlight (horrors!) to make sure I was seeing what I thought I saw. Or perhaps the best explanation is the simplest one: the editor got it wrong in this edition.
I haven't found anybody dealing with this discrepancy. Any comments? KJPurscell (talk) 15:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no such letter as "tsamekh". The letter ס is called samekh, and -- at least in relatively recent centuries -- has been pronounced [s]. The letter צ (finally ץ) is transcribed by modern scholars ṣađe, but it is in Ashkenazic style pronounced [ts] and pronounced tsade. The name Leibowitz would be transcribed לייבאוויץ. RandomCritic (talk) 20:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: How are you pronouncing Leibowitz? /liboʊwɪt͡s/ – ליבוויץ‎. 70.29.63.164 (talk) 17:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yiddish pronunciation, Yiddish spelling: [leibɔvɪts]. RandomCritic (talk) 17:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

text: They must be Miller's mistakes, because the errors are different in my edition than in yours (and others who've talked on this page). 70.29.63.164 (talk) 17:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew errors? 

message: The hyperlinked note #15 displays a definition of "Thon" as equivalent to "professor".  I never got that out of the text of the novel, so I was curious about the source of that definition.  I had always imagined that "Thon" was rather a corruption of or derivative of the Spanish "Don", some thing that seemed reasonable, given the centuries that had passed and the Spanish cultural influence on the Southwest.  Miller includes an anecdote that illustrates a similar etymological development, in the story about the catfish "B'dollos" inhabiting a lake where another monk was martyred.
TheBaron0530 (talk) 03:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition and etymology of "Thon" 

message: I have noticed that the reference to the "Albertian Order" includes a link to the Albertus Magnus article, but I don't see the connection between this person who happened to be called Albertus (there is a disambiguation page including several other notable people of that name) and this book - I had imagined that, perhaps, the "Albertian Order" was a reference to Albert Einstein, whose name may have been preserved in the 26th century as a figure of importance PaulHammond (talk) 15:37, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this site it's his connection with science and learning. It sounds like original research (even if Albertus Magnus was the allusion, and the Einstein theory sounds more likely; aren't monastic orders technically named after their founders rather than a patron saint too?) so I'd say tag it with  and unlink it if there's been no response in a week or two. --xensyriaT 18:14, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the Category Category:1960s science fiction novels Transcendentalist01 (talk) 16:42, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As the article makes no reference to Einstein, nor to the significance of "Albertian", I have removed the links to Albertus Magnus and to Einstein for now. It's been too long since I read the book. It would be helpful if someone could cite a place in the book where the name is explained. Eric talk 11:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to [[Albertus Magnus]]? 

message: Two things: Firstly, what is the difference between being subhuman in capacity for reason and intelligence? Couldn't we just say, "capacity for reason" and leave it at that? Secondly, were the mutants also physically very different than regular humans? Looked very different?--Jrm2007 (talk) 12:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish I had the relevant page numbers, but at one point "some were not outwardly effected, but in the heart and head (or was it "mind"?) My point anyways is that from the text, the mutations ranged a very wide spectrum and were commonplace. The people didn't have technology to examine DNA or anything close to that, so really there was no way of knowing what mutations were from radiation and which might be "natural". Using separate terms for "intelligence" and "capacity for reason" just emphasizes that there was no definitive standard to prove any differences. The point was that ALL euthanasia of children, whatever their defects, was pronounced unacceptable by recent popes of that future time (as it would be in "real world" contemporary Catholicism as well). Whether any one "subhuman" fit into any particular category, or even whether "human" or "subhuman" at all! did not matter as regards to the Church. So the point is moot Cuvtixo (talk) 21:29, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description of "Pope's Children" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "As Zerchi tries to conditionally baptize Rachel..."
Rachel?  Who the hell is Rachel?   Mrs. Grales secret identity?  Or is her name Rachel Grales?  And if she's married, Why would she need to be baptized?  Very unclear from the context.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 01:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiat Voluntas Tua