Talk:University of Waterloo/Archive 1

message: Hey guys, for those who are from the university and damn proud of it, use the following UserBox.  Thanks!
--AlphaTwo 21:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: there is a better page for stories about UW here: http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca/infoipa/history/legends . I'll maybe add it to the references links later. RobSchmidt 21:10, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

message: It seems someone or many are trying to add science to the list of strong programs. Is this just repeated POV vandalism or is someone trying to make an argument for science's inclusion? If you want science to be added and think you have a good reason, please state it here:
*its not. the end.
*From what I understand the biochemistry program is the foremost program of its type in Canada and we have the only Anglophone optometry school in Canada, making it the ideal choice for English-speaking future opticians.
* not to mention the Institute for Quantum Computing (in which the Physics department is heavily involved), a field in which Waterloo truly is a world leader.  IQC has made Waterloo well-known as much as any other initiative.  Or the new Nanotechnology Engineering program, the only one of its kind in Canada, a joint initiative between ECE, ChemEng, and Chemistry.   I can't speak to the quality of the undergraduate program but there is certainily top-notch research.
* All POV
* By suggesting that that is POV, then isn't the argument that UW is strong in CS/Eng all POV too?  Besides the press/media/Companies suggesting that UW is strong in those area (which is POV), how can anything be "stated" as facts? --AlphaTwo
* How about some concrete proof from statistics; i.e the amount of research and development from current faculty or alumni. The media/press is ALWAYS a POV. Just because UW has the largest COOP in the world, its engineering and computer science program became attractive. Either than that, it has NO history and is over-rated by UW die-hard ppl like you.
* I'm not arguing for science as a strong point for UW , but I'm just offering a counterpoint.  What statistical proof does anyone have to suggest that any program is strong?  As an example:.  The psychology department ranks 2nd in Clinical Psychology in North America, but did anyone count it?  Nope.  Just because it's unknown, it doesn't make it less of a fact. --AlphaTwo 19:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find that it's hard to take the edits seriously, because oftentimes, math, computer science, or engineering is removed along with the addition - I've seen more than a few edits where computer science is replaced with science.  If these people were really serious about adding science to the list, they would have started a discussion in talk.  I feel they are more interested in vandalizing and trying to promote their favourite faculty.  -- Rediahs 19:01, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strong programs in ... Science? 

message: The paragraph describing Walksafe is unclear to me.  Has the Walksafe program been ranked #1 in Canada for 11 straight years?  Or has the Walksafe program contributed to Waterloo's high Maclean's Magazine rankings?  (If the author of that section is trying to imply that's the case, I rather suspect that there are other larger reasons why Waterloo has done so well, although I'm sure Walksafe doesn't hurt either.)  This should probably be revised by somebody who knows more about Walksafe than I do, or maybe I'll do some research myself at some point.  Kraigus 18:28, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the implication is that the Walksafe program somehow boosts Waterloo's Maclean's ranking.  I'm fairly positive that's not the case.  (In fact, some question the usefulness of the Walksafe program!)  There are things that would be more appropriate to highlight, for sure. Revived 01:17, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: The Walksafe homepage Arcuras 06:54, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Are there any objections to me just removing the Walksafe item entirely?  In an article of this depth, I don't really think it even deserves mention.  It is just one of many services the university provides.  What's there right now is a rather pointless summary. Revived 00:28, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: I think it would be okay to remove it, it's nothing that other universities don't also offer. --Spinboy 00:36, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walksafe 

message: The article states "In the past, innovations introduced by Systems Design are known to be eventually adopted by other engineering design departments, such as the integral first year design project component that was implemented decades ago." 
I don't dispute that the engineering design projects were started by SyDE, but when I did my CompE degree, we did a fourth year design project, not a first year one. Maybe other departments within the faculty of engineering were doing something different, but it seems to me that wasn't the case; the purpose of the fourth-year design project was to demonstrate that you actually learned something in the previous three years and could apply your knowledge to the solution of some real-world problem. -- Superflex 14:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In Mech Eng we have a design project in our ME100 course for 1A. There's a larger design project in the 4A and 4B terms for MechEng as well. I don't know about the other disciplines but Mechs do have a design project in their first year. --207.61.57.35 18:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future plans/innovations by SyDE 

message: No such thing..there is one MIT thats it. Please stop the bs...avoid self-aggrandizing statements.  McGill would be Harvard of Canada then?
:I don't mind you removing sentences, but please make sure the text makes grammatical sense after your change. It doesn't and I have to go fix it now. --qviri 21:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the phrase MIT of Canada and MIT of the North have been used frequently on campus, and even by some publications. Nearly 2000 google hits attests to this. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, the fact remains that this nickname has been applied to UW, and is part of its culture, especially within its engineering and math departments. This isn't an issue of what any individual believes, but rather of doing simple research, which you have clearly not done. Mindmatrix 17:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And by the way, nobody is claiming that UW is affiliated in any way with MIT, only that UW has this nickname. Neither are we saying that UW executives endorse this nickname. Mindmatrix 17:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've heard David Johnston and others use it (at internal speeches and within an office context).  It may not be officially official, but it's there, for whatever that's worth.  Kraigus 04:07, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: By the way, my apologies for the rather strong statement earlier. Anyway, nicknames are part of the heritage of the school, just as they are for people or cities. Why should we apply a different standard to this article? Mindmatrix 20:55, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  MIT of Canada? 

message: How is RIM a spinoff or rooted in UW?  I have seen no evidence to support this claim at all.
:Two words: Mike Lazaridis.
::In 1980, he enrolled at the University of Waterloo. He dropped out in 1985 shortly before graduation, having been offered a lucrative contract from General Motors for the nascent RIM.
:::So a university that Lazaridis dropped out of is suddenly the root of RIM?  That seems to be a very weak association at best.--ShadowlessClick 07:09, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's no accident RIM buildings are right across Waterloo's campus. --qviri 20:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly RIM employs a number of UW coops as well as some graduates, however claiming RIM is a spinoff of UW is more than a bit misleading.  The Maple symbolic computation suite was actually created at UW with UW resources and later spunoff as a commercial product and company.  OpenText shares a similar history beginning as a UW research project to create an electronic OED.  The same is true with Watcom.  RIM does not share this same close association with UW.--ShadowlessClick 07:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Devil's advocate: http://www.bulletin.uwaterloo.ca/2002/nov/19tu.html for instance, Lazaridis certainly associates himself with UW.  Kraigus 13:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How does a personal association equate to RIM being a spinoff of UW?  If a CEO of a corporation was Christian, would you call the corporation a Christian company or a spinoff of Christianity?  Bill Gates happens to be a philanthropist, do you believe Microsoft is a philanthropic organization?  A corporate spinoff is by definition "a divestiture by a corporation of a division or subsidiary by issuing to stockholders shares in a new company set up to continue the operations of the division or subsidiary" or "the new company formed by such a divestiture"; clearly RIM does not fit this definition.  If you were to take spinoff to mean "something derived from an earlier work, such as a television show starring a character who had a popular minor role in another show", stating RIM is a spinoff of UW would still be incorrect as RIM was never based off of any project or work from UW.  Finally, it would be quite difficult to argue that RIM is a direct byproduct of UW.  UW only official claims that RIM is "started by Waterloo graduates".  Even this statement is erroneous since Lazaridis never graduated from UW and Doug Fregin, cofounder and current VPO, is from the University of Windsor.--ShadowlessClick 20:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research In Motion 

message: The "Students in the Faculty of Engineering receive the iron ring in their last term" is not a UW tradition or peculiarity.  This practice is a tradition of the Engineering Institute of Canada and practiced by all Canadian engineers upon graduation.  The tradtion has actually been copyrighted in Canada and the USA.--ShadowlessClick 07:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that in current times the 'Faculty' of Mathematics staff are scattered between the MC - Math and Computer Building - and the DC - Davis Centre.  I will update the article to speak to the 'Math and Computer building' instead of 'the Faculty of Mathematics building.  While I can not readily provide a reference online to confirm that the DC and MC achieved their shape through design, I can verify that both buildings do live up to the stated items when viewed from the intended angle.  This is not uncommon for the campus.  A good example being the sculpture entitled DAVID OF SASSOUN, made of Blue painted steel, by Armand Buzbuzian in 1977, found at the Math & Computer Building, SW corner.   This sculpture, when viewed from the right angle is designed to resemmble a large 'C' 'S'   (short for Computer Science).  The effect is intentional. If I should happen across a referrence to the building's design, I will post it up here... in the meantime, I would argue they should stay.  Unlike the 'sinking library' story which can be found on dozens of campuses, these 'peculiarities' are unique to Waterloo's campus and as such, a part of what make its culture unique.   Razynder 00:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traditions and peculiarities 

message: In traditions, for the entry under pink ties, someone wrote "These giant ties, "Pinky" and "Fuschia," were most recently stolen in November 2005 by a group of Engineers." That seems to imply that the pink tie on the MC wall during frosh week was stolen. Those ties aren't the same tie. I SUGGEST REMOVE!!!! ...?!
:Actually, there are a few Pink Ties, so you're right... they aren't the same tie.  The large one on the side of the building is kept safe by the faculty.  Pinky and Fuschia are smaller ties (though still about 20 feet or more) which are used at smaller MathSOC events and are traditionally kept by the executive of the society.  These smaller ties have been stolen repeatedly over the years... and recovered.  The large tie on the side of the building has itself been stolen or damaged a few times and needed to be replaced, however, the one which is there currently has been there for well over a decade now.   Personally, if we are tracking traditions, the reference to Pinky and Fuschia should stay as part of the 'tradition'... but perhaps it could be worded better such that there is no confusion with the tie on the building.  Razynder 16:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  traditions > pink ties 

message: The current section's one line description of the companys not needed; they are best described on their own pages. Instead, I am going to replace the descriptions with how they are relevant to Waterloo.
I also took RIM off the list; neither co-founder (Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie) were affliated with the university at the time they started the company.
* Certicom - founded by two Waterloo professors, Scott Vanstone and Gordon Agnew
* Dalsa - founded by Waterloo electrical engineering professor Dr. Savvas Chamberlain
* Maplesoft - founded by two Waterloo professors, Keith Geddes and Gaston Gonnet
* Open Text Corporation - originated from the university's Oxford English Dictionary project
* QNX - founded by two Waterloo undergrad students, Gordon Bell and Dan Dodge
* SlipStream Data - founded by two Waterloo professors, En-hui Yang and Ajit Singh
* Watcom - originated from the university's Computer Systems Group
More companies:
* Net Integration Technologies Incorporated - founded by two Waterloo undergrad students, Avery Pennarun and Dave Coombs
These links provide a list of UW related companies, they should be searched for spin-offs.
* http://www.uwaterloo.ca/documents/reb_083101.htm#_Toc521493817
* http://uwryan.com/business/bsn-list.html
--Jdeboer 10:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spin offs 

message: Does anyone feel the page organization is getting out of hand?  Some of the photos are quite unrelated to the section.  Maybe we should group them into a gallery.  And also, should we remove the school of architecture relocation from "future plans"?  That was done ages ago!
Wikipedia is not a mere collection of links, nor is wikipedia a course calender. Some of these may be worth mentioning, what ever the case, the section should be fleshed out.
--Jdeboer 02:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Organization

message: thumb|325px|right|The UW campus is known for its greenery. With three lakes and a conservation area on campus, it is home to a wide variety of vegetation and wildlife.
* St. Jerome's University (Roman Catholic) 
* Renison College (Anglican)
* St. Paul's United College (United Church of Canada)
* Conrad Grebel University College (Mennonite).
thumb|325px|right|The UW campus is known for its greenery. With three lakes and a conservation area on campus, it is home to a wide variety of vegetation and wildlife.
* Bell Canada Software Reliability Laboratory
* UW Compter Graphics Laboratory
* Computational Epistemology Laboratory
* Coding and Signal Transmission Laboratory
* Environmental Isotope Laboratory
* Microelectronics Heat Transfer Laboratory
* Waterloo Laboratory for Earth Observations
* Advanced Interface Design Laboratory
* Laboratory for Studies in Environmental Fluid Flow
* Cardiorespiratory & Vascular Dynamics Lab
* Institute for Quantum Computing
* Institute for Computer Research
* Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies
* Business and Industrial Statistics Research Group
* Nortel Networks Institute
* Waterloo Institute for Health Informatics
* Institute for Innovation Research
--Jdeboer 09:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Affiliated Colleges

message: The article claims that the Arts faculty is the largest on campus. I don't think that is true.
* It is true that the Arts faculty has the most undergraduate students enrolled. 
* Arts has more faculty than Engineering (2004: Arts 213, Eng 197). However, their faculty complement (current + open positions) are nearly identical (2004: Arts 206.5, Eng 204). At the Engineering complement's rate of growth it will easily overtake Arts in 2005.
* However, both Math and Engineering have issued more honours degrees in recent years; in 2004 Arts issued 631 Honours BAs, Math issed 775 Honours BMaths. 
* Engineering has more BUI teaching units than Arts. (2004: Eng: 8316, Arts: 8228)
* Engineering and Math have larger budgets than Arts (2004: Eng $29.3mil, Arts: $26.0mil, Math $29.7mil)
* Both Engineering and Math have larger support staffs than Arts
source: http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca/infoiap/docs/sfp/sfp2005.pdf
With these mixed numbers, the statement that Arts is the largest faculty is dubious at best.
--129.97.152.118 18:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Arts Faculty

message: I made a post in the talks page over here a while back, but no response.  Should Fedclubs get a seperate page that links to Feds, which would then link to here?--AlphaTwo 17:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[University of Waterloo Federation of Students|Federation of Students]] and it's clubs 

message: I made a post in the talks page over here a while back, but no response.  Should Fedclubs get a seperate page that links to Feds, which would then link to here?--AlphaTwo 17:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[University of Waterloo Federation of Students|Federation of Students]] and its clubs 

message: ... or at least what it pretends to be.
I very intentionally left out the faculty ratings. This page now has rankings and reputation of university as a whole. Feel free to add more, positive or negative, as long as you quote a reliable source (ie, not someone's blog). Do not add faculty rankings/reputations/other crap here. There are redlinks at the bottom of the page waiting for that.
I regretfully inform that questionable edits without an edit summary or follow-up (better yet, pre-edit) discussion on this talk page may be reverted without prior warning. If you're an anonymous user and feel this page exhibits excessive amounts of bias/POV, please register yourself an account - it's psychologically much easier to discuss issues with a user than with a number. I have archived the previous discussions since the page was getting far too messy.
Now, a bit about more specific of my edits:
* The History section utilises a lot of stuff written by 67.185.234.150 - thanks a lot, made my life a lot easier. Also moved some stuff from Future Plans to History as time flow warrantied.
     - no problem, I really thought a history section for UW was necessary. -67.185.234.150 (pajaro)
* The Reputation section is currently a bit Maclean's heavy - if someone wanted to add some more stuff to balance it out, that'd be appreciated. I think we should keep it at approximately 1.5*current length, though, after that that'll just get excessive.
* I removed the MPs from famous alumni -- IMVHO being one of 300 people elected across the country isn't enough of a notability claim, and that list looks a bit long anyway. Feel free to argue me wrong. I'd love to cut out some other marginally notable people from that list, but I don't know enough about them, so I'll refrain
* Cut out some stuff from the Traditions and Pecularities. The Pink Tie stuff is included in the Tie Guard. I'd keep the "Sydney, Australia; California; Florence; Munich, Germany and in Butchart Gardens, Victoria, B.C.", but without a precise location in California it'd look silly.
That'll be all. Thanks for your co-operation; I look forward to watching this article grow. In a good way. --Qviri (talk) 04:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: my rewrite

message: Info that can be added in the section:
*The Tie used to be a frequent victim of abuse from other faculties' students, which led to the formation of the Tie Guard 1994.
*The Log was showcased on the 3rd floor of the Math and Computer building (MC) until it was stolen in late 2005 by the engineers.  It has been returned since.
OR, we could talk about stuff people actually care about, like the programs, departments, reputation, famous grads.
:Yes, of course that's what will go in.  My list was just a list of items that was removed from the main page that can go into the Math /CS page.  This is just a mere backup of what's was removed.--AlphaTwo 14:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Math and CS Department Page

message: Here's a template I've made to quickly link all the UW pages together.
Some of you may noticed that the University Colleges are not listed, nor any of the Center of ....  As I've explained in the discussion, I can't think of a good place to put it without making it awkward.  If you have a better suggestion, please feel free to make the changes.--AlphaTwo 02:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: University of Waterloo Template

message: Since using stock photos from the University violates most Copyrights, is there anyone on campus who's willing to go out and get some photos for our use?--AlphaTwo 16:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photographs

message: I've created new pages for each red link.  Hopefully someone can add in the details.--Shion Uzuki 03:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mmm, details didn't get through so well. (Science was proposed to be merged back...) I've sent an email to Chris of studentlifecentre.com, asking him to post a follow-up of sorts to  with a request for data about AHS, Arts, ES and Science. We'll see if and how that goes. --Qviri (talk) 15:32, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: And we're in: . Some of the results can be already seen, for example here. --Qviri (talk) 17:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the poster who suggested merging the page jumped the gun and was too bold in suggesting the merge without backing up their reasoning.  Either way, I've slapped a quick one-liner onto the page, hopefully that's a start.--AlphaTwo 05:27, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merged back into Main Page

message: "The University of Waterloo is famous for being the groundbreaking proponent of co-operative education in Canada and currently maintains the largest such program in the world." plus the entire Reputation section. Ardenn 04:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I didn't get the memo. That particular sentence seems pretty factual (and accurate) to me. All it needs is a cite. Parudox 05:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It's much more productive to bring up particular issues here. Most of what you deemed to be non-neutral or "weasel words" seems to be verifiable fact. Parudox 05:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was suggested to me I should fix it rather than slapping tags on. I've put the tag back. There's no cited source for that quote. Ardenn 05:36, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job, you've reminded me why I stopped editing this page. Back to the sweet oblivion it is. (Are you sure there aren't any Ottawa pages that need to be updated or something?) --Qviri (talk) 12:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as they can cite a secondary source for the having the "largest and most successful co-op program in the world", then keep it.ChaoticLlama 19:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Weasel words

message: (moved from above by User:Qviri)
*Shouldn't the list of spinoff companies include RIM? --colchar 10April 2006 12:36 (18:36 GMT)
** Technically speaking, no. See the discussion at Talk:University of Waterloo/archive1#Research In Motion. Of course, it's a spin-off in spirit, but how dare we put that on wikipedia... --Qviri (talk) 16:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RIM as a spin-off

message: Is this not a disporportionatly large blurb about the Tie Guard for the UW page? It's a once a year event which could be summarized. Would it not be more appropriate to include it in full with University of Waterloo Faculty of Mathematics? Jeff 13:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  It seems that there's too much slant for the Math Dept now that Tie Guard is on the main page.  Either we relocate it somewhere else, or we give approximatly the same amount of space for something like the Tool.--AlphaTwo 16:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This should receive no more than a one-sentence mention on this page; same goes for the Tool. Also, I think that each deserves some explanation in their respective faculty pages, but not to the extent that "Tie Guard" is mentioned in the current version of this article. These are of relatively minor importance to the respective faculties as well. Perhaps a separate article about Traditions at the University of Waterloo could be created instead. Mindmatrix 16:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved it to the Math Faculty page because the Tie is their mascot. The Pink Tie already is mentioned twice on this page so I see no need to add a mention of Tie Guard. I think I'd prefer putting traditions with their respective faculty instead of creating a separate article as this seems to be more relevant. Kratoz 17:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tie Guard

message: I reverted the change that added the FSA link because the FSA is not part of UW. It is a club under the Federation of Students. Another reason is if we allow a club to be added, then the other 200 clubs will be added, which should not be allowed. Also since the University does not recognize the Fraternaties and Sororities, it's inclusion could lead to the impression it does. If people want to open the door to all 200 clubs being added, they can do so on the University of Waterloo Federation of Students Page, though I would oppose this because 200 external links will be cluttering and there is a link to the Feds webpage which has all of them and their websites listed. Kratoz 18:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fraternity and Sorority Awareness 

message: :The university recently introduced an "interesting" program called PDENG to engineering students as an additional course. This was Waterloo's solution to its declining popularity and reputation. The program is described as to help students gain experience in the professional world. Majority of students are complaining about the program about it's dryness, uselessness and its unprofessional appeal. Spelling mistakes and other errors can often be found in its text and PDENG features long and boring essays that students are required to read, and then forces students to write to explain their understanding. The questions asked are often silly and rhetorical, such as "Why do you think reading this module helped you at work." The marking of the assignments are also questionable, unlike how the university had promised, assignments are currently being marked by young students of the university (as young as second years). -- User:129.97.248.208
I pulled it over here because a) It should not be at the top, and b) questionable bias.  Anyone feel like taking a stab at this?--AlphaTwo 05:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You were right to pull it since it is biased, full of factual errors, and poorly written. I am a student at UW Engineering as well as a member of the first class to go through PDEng. It does not belong on this page as PDEng is a specific engineering course. There are other courses for other departments in the university, such as PD1 for math. There is no justification to the comment "This was Waterloo's solution to its declining popularity and reputation" as the faculty has said it is inresponse to alumni and industry feedback, and to improve the co-op program. The tone of this addition is unencyclopedic, and subjective.Kratoz 19:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a total aside: There's been a lot of random useless edits from the 129.97.* domains.  Do these people not know that we know that they are posting right from the University?  I'm wondering if this has been an ongoing problem. --AlphaTwo 04:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PDENG