Talk:Abdul Hamid II

message: Why is it Abdul Hamid but not Abdulhamid or Abdulhamit? When it is written as two names, not only Hamid looks like his family name or his middle name, but also Abdul looks like a stand alone name, which would be rather silly as it means "the slave of". In fact I never heard "Abdul" used as a stand alone name by itself except when Americans shorten a much longer name to something they barely can pronounce. 74.66.233.1 05:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the English language version of Wikipedia.  Abdul Hamid is how he is described in all the English language literature of the time, down to our own times.  The problems with transliterating Arabic language into English are real, but outside the scope of this article. Roger Pearse 13:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The title must be "Abdulhamid II". That's the true one. Just like as "Abdullah".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.14.125.43 (talk) 00:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Hi. The Image :Image:Abdul Hamid Zia Pasha.jpg popped up on the commons with insufficient source. The Source says "Abdul Hamid Zia Pasha. 1825-1881", but we at the commons could not yet find such a guy. Could this be Abdul Hamid II? The birth dates and death dates do not match, but they look mightily similiar. Does anybody know? -- Chris 73 Talk 08:43, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
:Hi, it seems that the image belongs to "Ziya Paşa (Ziya Pasha)", who was exiled by Abdülhamid, so the mismatch in the identification of the picture. Please check: http://www.geocities.com/tirnakli/ZIYA.html CeeGee 10:06, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
::thanks for the quick response. I updated the image on the commons -- Chris 73 Talk 13:33, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
::: Per si, as it has an  article :en:Ziya Pasha, unlisted Abdul_Hamid_Zia_Pasha.jpg from Wikipedia:Images_with_missing_articles/lib.utexas.edu.  --Omotecho (talk) 02:18, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please identify [[:Image:Abdul Hamid Zia Pasha.jpg]] 

message: I rated this as B-class due to the fact that it has good pictures, and seems to have decent coverage of the time that he was Sultan, but it doesn't cover anything between his birth and becoming Sultan, not even the REASON his brother was deposed. Mdotley 21:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two reasons for his brother's deposition. First, it may sound weird but, Abdülhamid II accepted the formation of an Ottoman constitution and promised new reforms for the state structure and for the minorities back in 1876. Second, his brother had mental problems and was seen by many as an incapable ruler. Of course, when the Ottoman imperial army turned into a ruin during the Ottoman-Russian War and Russian forces came as close as Yeşilköy, the newly adopted constitution was removed by the Sultan via the powers given to him by the constitution. Now that's what I can irony :) Deliogul 17:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rating: B-class 

message: This source for example, is definately verifiable. It also seems pretty neutral to me. If there are sources that contradict it, they can be added. However, removing sourced material is not OK. —Khoikhoi 04:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Justin McCarthy is about as reputable a historian as David Irving. If he states a view that the massacres did not happen then you can add in his thoughts, but McCarthy's ideas contradict those of most Western historians and can't be taken as the mainstream opinion. -- Augustgrahl 18:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not going to start debating the veracity of the Armenian Genocide here, it's completely irrelevant and wouldn't accomplish much of anything. Please find me one real, non-Turkish, peer-reviewed and reputable scholarly source giving any support to McCarthy's views, not petitions. -- Augustgrahl 20:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: If you had bothered to read the names on the petition, they were of just about every Mid East scholar active when it was signed, most of whom are neither Turkish nor Justin McCarthy, and all their works support Prof McCarthy's position.
But since you asked:
Roderic Davison: Turkey: A Short History;   The Armenian crisis, 1912-1914,
Carter Findley: The Turks in World History
Stanford Shaw: History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, vol II
Heath Lowry: The story behind Ambassador Morgenthau's story;   The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the ArmeniansCaroline Caroline Finkel:  Osman's Dream: The History of the Ottoman Empire 
Jeremy Salt: Imperialism, Evangelism and the Ottoman Armenians, 1878-1896  
Guenter Lewy: The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide  
Bernard Lewis, The Emergence of Modern Turkey					
Those are just off the top of my head.
Jpiccone 19:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The paragraph 

message: Due to the continous disruption of this page by anonymous users, I'm protecting the article. -- Augustgrahl 19:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't protect it—you're not an admin. :p Please remove the tag (or list this page on WP:RPP. —Khoikhoi 19:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah yes. Well I'm an admin and I have :-) William M. Connolley 19:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: -D —Khoikhoi 19:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I apologize for my ignorance concerning protecting articles, but my actions were well intended. -- Augustgrahl 19:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Protected

message: I've came across to many uncreditable claims that AH2 was partly an Armenian, but in none of those, Armenianness of the sultan was attributed to this Tirimüjgân Kadınefendi. They instead claimed that actual mother of AH2 was an Armenian dancer (?) at the court, with whom so-called 'casanova' Abdülmecid had some intercourse. The story is like, "A circassian girl in the court (this is Tirimüjgân) was announced to be his mother, however, he was the son of an Armenian dancer." These are told in a rather pejorative manner as you can see. But even those people agree that Tirimüjgân was not an Armenian woman. 
For the time being, I'll be contented with a citation-nneeded tag, but I am planning to remove that if it is not verified by an appropriate source. Okan 18:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tir-i Müjgân - Armenian? 

message: Since it has been claimed that the figures given for casualties of the massacres are from "subjective propaganda," I have replaced them with figures given by Taner Akçam and noted that they are given by him. Hopefully this will allow the text to be more objective and satisfy those who question the accuracy of the section. -- Augustgrahl 17:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, I didn't claim that the Sultan didn't kill anyone. He wasn't an angel, actually none of us are. Whatever, I'm not against the claims of death figures. I'm against the romantic and Armenian sided writing style of the previous version of the article. You know, old, young, women, men and children were murdered and brave Armenians took action to kill the Sultan. This smells propaganda, no matter it is true or false. Also, if he was Le Sultan Rouge, such bravery wouldn't work. Of course this is the subject of another argument. Take care mate, Deliogul 21:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While talking about Abdülhamid's way of dealing with revolts, we can't skip the Macedonian uprising, which took place more or less during the same era with the Armenian uprising. In both events, Ottomans used military power. They sent the imperial army to Macedonia (one of the main reasons why the Western press called Abdülhamid Le Sultan Rouge) and they used the Kurdish warlords of the east to deal with Armenian rebels. As Sting says in his song "If blood will flow when flesh and steel are one...", military action causes deaths, everytime it is used. Probably, there wouldn't be a better person than Abdülhamid in the world if he gave away Macedonia and Eastern Anatolia without fighting. For example, will you expect Russia to accept any of her many sub countries to declare independence from her, without firing a single bullet? The answer is possibly "No" and "No" means people will die if such an event happens. Therefore, the issue of revolts in the Ottoman Empire is more complex than just "Ottomans go and kill thousands of people". Deliogul 12:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Contentious Casualty Claims

message: deleted the parts about being "ulu hakan" and his nicknames in the West.  If only one book refers to him as such, it doesn't show the whole population's perspective. The West is not 1 book, we'd need more books to add his nicknames to the entry. For now, I have deleted them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.208.184.2 (talk) 01:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: deleting opening description

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BetacommandBot (talk) 03:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Von der Goltz.jpg

message: The statement "Abdul Hamid II, the last Sultan of the Ottoman Empire to rule with absolute power, was overthrown by Mehmed V."  is implausible.   Abdul Hamid II was NOT overthrown by Mehmed V.   Abdul Hamid was overthrown by a clique of generals,   who then placed Mehmed on the throne as a puppet.    Thats not the same thing, at all. Eregli bob (talk) 05:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Implausible statement 

message: Some parts of this article are grammatically incomprehensible. I have removed the following from the 1st constitutional section:
:"making the disharmony in the empire did prove a different view, at least in the eyes of the Sultan" Hgilbert (talk) 10:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  incomprehensible 

message: The article and many sources says she is Circassian, but I've come across several sources (some in Turkish) that say her name was Virjin and she was Armenian. Others say she was an "Armenian convert." I don't read Turkish, but I think this article from Bursa Haber says she was Armenian. Hakob (talk) 04:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: His mother, Tirimujgan

message: There doesn't seem to be anything in the article between those years. 
--iFaqeer (talk) 06:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Between 1909 and 1918

message: * This article includes an unsourced quotation of questionable authenticity, which I tagged:  "to have the scalpel cut my body is less painful than to witness Palestine being detached from the Khilafah state and this is not going to happen ...let the Jews keep their millions and once the Khilafah is torn apart one day, then they can take Palestine without a price." This quote is widely circulated on Islamic Internet forums, but I could not find any reliable source for this. Marokwitz (talk) 14:35, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No response was given, so I am removing the tagged quotation.  Marokwitz (talk) 11:09, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced quote 

message: I don't see the reason for listing all of the subject's living descendents.  See WP:BLP.  I'll remove the list.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a discussion about this at the Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard.Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Descendents

message: Somehow baksheesh is not discussed, but it was one of the famous notions of the Ottoman empire. There is no a book about the time, not mentioning it. There are hundreds of jokes about it, and sad stories as well. Under his reign Baksheesh became an art. Can anyone find some online (English) sources and post it? 
I was now subject to a video about the Armenian massacre for the first time (I saw fading images in the Armenian quarter of Jerusalem, but never saw anything about the real scale of it), after reading about it a few days ago in a book by Antek Zuckerman deputy head of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and later on head of the Ghetto Warriors museum. He found out about someone who tried to convince Morgentau to forget cover up the Armenian massacre, and wrote how despicable that was. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 21:15, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baksheesh (bribary) 

message: How come Abdulhamid II has this title but the majority of the Sultans are just 'Mehmet II' or 'Murat V'? I think Osman I, Selim III and others had the same title. Why is that? 96.55.183.132 (talk) 23:53, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abd Al-Hamid II Khan Ghazi? 

message: Sultan Abdul Hamid II,  after being approached by American minister to Turkey, Oscar Straus (politician), sent a letter to the Moros of the Sulu Sultanate telling them not to resist American takeover and cooperate with the Americans at the start of the Moro Rebellion.. The Sulu Moros complied with the order.
John Hay, the American Secretary of State, asked the Jewish American ambassador to Ottoman Turkey, Oscar Straus (politician) in 1889 to approach Sultan Abdul Hamid II to request that the Sultan write a letter to the Muslims of the Sulu Sultanate in the Philippines telling them to submit to American suzerainty and American military rule, the Sultan oblidged them and wrote the letter which was sent to Sulu via Mecca where 2 Sulu chiefs brought it home to Sulu and it was succesful, since the Sulu Mohammedans . . . refused to join the insurrectionists and had placed themselves under the control of our army, thereby recognizing American sovereignty. The Ottoman Sultan used his position as caliph to order the Sulu Sultan not to resist and not fight the Americans when they came subjected to American control. President McKinley did not mention Turkey's role in the pacification of the Sulu Moros in his address to the first session of the Fifty-sixth Congress in December 1899 since the agreement with the Sultan of Sulu was not submitted to the Senate until December 18. Despite Sultan Abdulhamid's "pan-Islamic" ideology, he readily acceded to Oscar S. Straus' request for help in telling the Sulu Muslims to not resist America since he felt no need to cause hostilities between the West and Muslims. Collabration between the American military and Sulu sultanate was due to the Sulu Sultan being persuaded by the Ottoman Sultan. John P. Finley wrote that: After due consideration of these facts, the Sultan, as Caliph caused a message to be sent to the Mohammedans of the Philippine Islands forbidding them to enter into any hostilities against the Americans, inasmuch as no interference with their religion would be allowed under American rule. As the Moros have never asked more than that, it is not surprising, that they refused all overtures made, by Aguinaldo's agents, at the time of the Filipino insurrection. President McKinley sent a personal letter of thanks to Mr. Straus for the excellent work he had done, and said, its accomplishment had saved the United States at least twenty thousand troops in the field. If the reader will pause to consider what this means in men and also the millions in money, he will appreciate this wonderful piece of diplomacy, in averting a holy war. Abdulhamid in his position as Caliph was approached by the Americans to help them deal with Muslims during their war in the Philippines and the Muslim people of the area obeyed the order to help the Americans which was sent by Abdulhamid.
Rajmaan (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abdul Hamid II's aid to Americans regarding the Moro Muslims 

message: By the looks of it this is a translation error and it looks like what is meant is "children". Can anybody verify this?
On a side note, I'm not entirely sure that such extensive detail about Abdul Hamid's family is necessary. It's a fairly lengthy section that should probably be cut down to a more manageable size. Also self-contradictory in that it states Abdul Hamid had 13 wives at the top but has 14 in the list.195.171.221.68 (talk) 14:32, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage with "issue" 

message: Please remove the duplicate material in the first and second  paragraphs  of this  section.
100.15.120.162 (talk) 22:22, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "America and the Philippines 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Whoever constantly removes my edits (Worth Reading section) please contact me and explain how it's considered vandalism. I've stated what's correct and it certainly was WORTH READING.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omarmonajed (talk • contribs) 20:51, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism?  

message: Is missing from the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:30, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  11:th marriage 

message: User Maidyouneed is pushing his/her own POV in many articles including this one. It has almost reached the level of vandalism. Dominator1071 (talk) 23:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV pushing 

message: This is something which should be added to article:
1:“YOU MUST NOW CONSIDER WHAT WILL BE THE OUTCOME OF THIS ORDER!” : SULTAN ABDÜLHAMID II WROTE A FAIRLY AGGRESSIVE RESPONSE TO THE BRITISH, WHEN COMEDY PLAY ABOUT THE LIFE OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS BEING PERFORMED. by Heritage Times
2:Offensive theater plays against Islam: Sultan Abdülhamid II's endeavors in Europe by Daily Sabah
 
But I've not yet any idea what should be added. IAmAtHome (talk) 02:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abdul Hamid II's Response to a Theatre Play about Muhammad 

message: The marriage and descendants section looks (sorry editor!) like such an eyesore. Its too long to navigate comfortably, some of the information is contradicting each other, the link in the source doesn't work and most importantly, it contains very trivial and excessive information. Is there any conflict if someone were to significantly trim this section? Danial Bass (talk) 17:10, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive info in Marriage subheading