Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy/Archive 27

message: Can anybody please point out to me why Zionists should receive scare quotes ("Zionists")? After all, this is what the members of the zionist movement call themselves. Azate 00:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It happens once in the article: "Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei blamed a "Zionist conspiracy" for the row over the cartoons." I guess it's between quotation marks because these were Khamenei's words. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 10:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's as it should be, of course. I was referring to the section headline: Alleged campaigns by the West and alleged "Zionist" conspiracy, or previous variations of it. Azate 11:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scare quotes 

message: The section "Islamism and xenophobia" states, that the proposal for a three day (actually 1-3 days) celebration fuels disillusionment with multiculturalism. Why is that? Is it original research? Raphael1 13:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I pulled this example from the "opinions" sub-page. Their proposal was headlined "Multi-cultural interaction" so the context is sound. The universities who were to host the events refused to partake, beacause they don't 'do' religion, so I think the interpretation isn't farfetched. A couple of years ago, they'd probably have accepted the offer. If you don't like the example as is, go find more references for it, or delete it. Azate 16:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've removed it, because I think Det Islamiske Trossamfund actually had a great idea to support multiculturalism. Raphael1 16:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ehm, I meant you should research the example first, and see how the idea was received in the domestic context, or pull it if nothing turns up - not that you should delete it immediately because YOU think "it was a great idea". Azate 17:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposition of “Muhammad’s Seminar/Festival” fuels disillusionment with multiculturalism? 

message: According to Politiken may 4th 2006, 12 young men are on the way to Europe to track down and kill the cartoonists. The threats are mentioned in "Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin", which allegedly have the information from Pakistani journalist Hamid Mir, who is known for interviewing Osama Bin Laden.
Link: http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=451923
This piece of information should somehow go into the article - or not ?   —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.52.81.128 (talk • contribs) 2006-05-11 01:04:13 UTC.
: That would go to the Timeline_of_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy; at least as long as nobody is actually killed or arrested. An English language source would be much prefered, but is not strictly necessary. Azate 16:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  12 men sent to kill cartoonists 

message: The "images" subsection of the "External links" section of the article contains this link:
* The 12 Jyllands-Posten images and response in cartoons by the Arab-European League, published on Annoy.com  
Should it be kept or deleted? Please vote below:
=== keep ===
# keep As a site that has fought two federal free speech cases in the United States, one before the US Supreme Court , their approach to the publication of the cartoons is interesting and relevant. You may not, but this article is neither for you nor about you.
That an American printer admitted to the San Francisco Chronicle that they purposely destroyed two of Fein’s works that included images of Christ and Abu Ghraib prior to an exhibition opening, even reported by Arab News makes it clear that this is not just a random link thrown up with no consideration. 
That the site includes related content, such as James Kirkup’s poem, Nick Berg’s beheading etc. and have contextualized it in a way that I happen to think is interesting and adds value to the links in this Wikipedia article. JasonWilson 19:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I seem to have lost this one fair and square. (Not really sure how a poll works in this context. Is it based on a certain number? A twenty four hour period? A Saturday/Sunday? A random determination that it's over?) Have to admit I'm a little disappointed. Thought people would be more open-minded towards an atypical presentations of the dispute. And as Azate himself pointed out once before. Because something is offensive, doesn't mean we refrain from talking about it (or, I imagine, linking to it).
Anjoe, if you read some of the stuff above, I gave reasons for why I thought it was a worthwhile link. Namely, I think, this article has numerous points of view, and rich related content. The related content, from poems to beheadings offer an interesting exploration of free speech, including all major religions, not just an attempt to insult or defend one. The link is not added to promote a site, which, given the placement of this link on the page, would probably not mount to much in terms of a promotion. No products or services are being sold on the page in question. There is no advertising on the page in question. No payment is required to view anything, nor special technological applications. It is not a blog or social networking site. 
And the Clinton Fein connection has nothing to do with anything other than a somewhat bizarrely intense focus that Azate seems to think exists between me and Fein (other than the openly written article I wrote about him), to the point that he finds something "sinister" in a link I made to the First Amendment Project (www.thefirstamendement.org), a non-profit organization that provides pro-bono legal counsel to journalists, artists and activists who run into trouble related to First Amendment issues. Where did I place this offensively, agenda-driven link? Under the First Amendment resources. And because Clinton Fein is President of the Board of that organization, which is not surprising given his own free speech battles, somehow I exist only to promote Annoy.com (albeit for those with a penchant for conspiracies and an inordinate amount of time on their hands). Bland as it may be, as it happens, it was through that organization that I first became familiar with Fein which led me to discover and appreciate his art, and later write an article on him. Nothing more vanilla than that. However, that, for reasons perhaps Azate can explain, is my big sin. It's as if to say that someone who writes about an item they are educated on or passionate about, say Islam, in more than one article, has an insidious agenda to promote Islam. I have been preparing to write about other artists I find noteworthy, but I'm not sure now if this might constitute an "infatuation," and if so, if that precludes me from making valuable contributions to Wikipedia. 
To be frank, I'm surprised at the flavor of discourse behind the scenes here.JasonWilson 06:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe, in the spirit of open disclosure, you should have mentioned that you actually work for annoy.com (link: )? That would have made things easier, because there's nothing wrong with that. Just for the record: I, personally, wish annoy.com, you and Fein all the best. You're part of a good fight. But that link was (as I outlined above) misleading, and annoy.com can't claim special significance in the JP cartoon affair. I realize that you may at the moment not be particularly inclined to take advice from me, but here it goes anyway: Pick your battles more carefully. Don't pretend you're a disinterested party when you're not. Don't push links for outlets you work for. And don't call me names. Other that that, let's put this stuff behind us and move on, ok? Azate 22:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Annoy.com link straw poll

message: # keep As a site that has fought two federal free speech cases in the United States, one before the US Supreme Court , their approach to the publication of the cartoons is interesting and relevant. You may not, but this article is neither for you nor about you.
That an American printer admitted to the San Francisco Chronicle that they purposely destroyed two of Fein’s works that included images of Christ and Abu Ghraib prior to an exhibition opening, even reported by Arab News makes it clear that this is not just a random link thrown up with no consideration. 
That the site includes related content, such as James Kirkup’s poem, Nick Berg’s beheading etc. and have contextualized it in a way that I happen to think is interesting and adds value to the links in this Wikipedia article. JasonWilson 19:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  keep 

message: # -delete - The link to annoy.com is misleading. While the site does indeed reproduce the JP cartoons, the main cartoon on the page is one of their own, and presented in a way that it can deceive the visitor into thinking this was one of JP's. That a bunch of cartoonists call themselves "Arab-European League" is kind of misleading, too. One would expect some political orgamization behind this title, not a group whose mission statement is: "It’s about stigmatizing a whole population of more than one billion Muslims through portraying their symbol as being a terrorist, megalomaniac, misogynic and a psychopath. This is Racist, xenophobic and calling for hatred against Muslims".  Azate 18:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I seem to have lost this one fair and square. (Not really sure how a poll works in this context. Is it based on a certain number? A twenty four hour period? A Saturday/Sunday? A random determination that it's over?) Have to admit I'm a little disappointed. Thought people would be more open-minded towards an atypical presentations of the dispute. And as Azate himself pointed out once before. Because something is offensive, doesn't mean we refrain from talking about it (or, I imagine, linking to it).
Anjoe, if you read some of the stuff above, I gave reasons for why I thought it was a worthwhile link. Namely, I think, this article has numerous points of view, and rich related content. The related content, from poems to beheadings offer an interesting exploration of free speech, including all major religions, not just an attempt to insult or defend one. The link is not added to promote a site, which, given the placement of this link on the page, would probably not mount to much in terms of a promotion. No products or services are being sold on the page in question. There is no advertising on the page in question. No payment is required to view anything, nor special technological applications. It is not a blog or social networking site. 
And the Clinton Fein connection has nothing to do with anything other than a somewhat bizarrely intense focus that Azate seems to think exists between me and Fein (other than the openly written article I wrote about him), to the point that he finds something "sinister" in a link I made to the First Amendment Project (www.thefirstamendement.org), a non-profit organization that provides pro-bono legal counsel to journalists, artists and activists who run into trouble related to First Amendment issues. Where did I place this offensively, agenda-driven link? Under the First Amendment resources. And because Clinton Fein is President of the Board of that organization, which is not surprising given his own free speech battles, somehow I exist only to promote Annoy.com (albeit for those with a penchant for conspiracies and an inordinate amount of time on their hands). Bland as it may be, as it happens, it was through that organization that I first became familiar with Fein which led me to discover and appreciate his art, and later write an article on him. Nothing more vanilla than that. However, that, for reasons perhaps Azate can explain, is my big sin. It's as if to say that someone who writes about an item they are educated on or passionate about, say Islam, in more than one article, has an insidious agenda to promote Islam. I have been preparing to write about other artists I find noteworthy, but I'm not sure now if this might constitute an "infatuation," and if so, if that precludes me from making valuable contributions to Wikipedia. 
To be frank, I'm surprised at the flavor of discourse behind the scenes here.JasonWilson 06:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe, in the spirit of open disclosure, you should have mentioned that you actually work for annoy.com (link: )? That would have made things easier, because there's nothing wrong with that. Just for the record: I, personally, wish annoy.com, you and Fein all the best. You're part of a good fight. But that link was (as I outlined above) misleading, and annoy.com can't claim special significance in the JP cartoon affair. I realize that you may at the moment not be particularly inclined to take advice from me, but here it goes anyway: Pick your battles more carefully. Don't pretend you're a disinterested party when you're not. Don't push links for outlets you work for. And don't call me names. Other that that, let's put this stuff behind us and move on, ok? Azate 22:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  delete 

message: http://www.tagesschau.de/video/0,1315,OID5521186_RESms120_PLYinternal_NAV_BAB,00.html
Man killed him self in german prison, after he was arested, because he tried to enter the Spinger building with a knive. Springer papers printed the cartoon.
Anybody there with mor info than the new tagesschau.--217.185.17.173 21:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This has been in the Timeline_of_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy (March 20) for a couple of days now. Azate 21:40, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lahore

message: I'm finding the current larger image link (under the main cartoons image) rather spammish and quite a bit less than neutral. I'm currently searching about for a more neutral link and I was wondering if anyone else might have a better link to swap this one out with? Thanks. Netscott 09:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have, but I want to remark, that :Image:Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png is in fact not a simple scan from the original article, but some kind of collage-recontruction using cartoon images probably found on the net combined with a very low-res version of the article - maybe taken from the free preview of Jyllands-Posten's internet-edition. The most obvious give-away being the english text to the virgin-cartoon. I think this is a little lousy considering the amount of trouble the showing of this image has cost us. --Anjoe 11:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well spotted man... that most definitely needs to change as obvisouly that particular version is verifiably not the original. Amazing how much difficulty still there is with that image. Netscott 11:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In case you want the version which was in the article before, the deep link is here; I'm not happy about the montage either. The linked image comes straight from JP's website, so it should be pretty much as original as possible. If it should be in higher resolution (should fair use allow), I would suggest running the full-res PDF (available to subscribers) through gs. — Peter L <talk|contribs> 13:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have the original PDF (grandma subscribes to JP.) If you need a copy for reference, send me an e-mail. There is a bug in my pdf-reader, preventing me from doing the thumbnailed screenshot myself -->MX44 13:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sending e-mail now. Netscott 14:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Image:Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png is not a scan, yes, but it is the preview of the relevant page on Jyllands-Posten's internet edition. Besides selling ordinary newspapers, Jyllands-Posten also sells access to an archive of old editions, and this image is taken from that archived version of the paper. So it is not simply made of "material from the net", it is made by Jyllands-Posten the way they make all similar examples. The previews used on the archive are reconstructions of the actual pages in the paper (probably to make it "feel" as close to the real thing as possible) and this image is very very close to the original page. Regards. Valentinian (talk) 21:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: We thank you for explaining to us the concept of an internet edition :-). :Image:Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png was not a scan nor taken from the archive-preview. Go compare the montage with the preview with the digital subscriber's version. Maybe you can spot the difference. Hint: Beside the non-danish launguage, look out for the names of the cartoonists under the drawings. --Anjoe 10:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: If you can find those 12 high resolution pictures at a different site then you could change the link, if not though it should stay. This link allowed me to study the cartoons and learn alot more about what the each artist was saying with each of these cartoons.Hypnosadist 13:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Less than neutral image link

message: What is that image of Kåre Blutgein doing in the article? He is already twice in the cartoons themselves :) and furthermore neither responsible nor famous for any of the controversy. Flemming Rose, Akkari/Laban and Anders Fogh Rasmussen are the ones we might want to see! (If any?) MX44 09:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No one's stopping you from removing it. Netscott 09:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed to the image of the book, a project which seems pertinent to the article. MX44 10:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It'll be interesting to see how that stands. Netscott 10:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gone by now! Somebody in San Diego deleted it, so that was two weeks. MX44 08:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blutgein image. 

message: The article states, "It [the dossier] also contains misinformation such as ... if you say they [the Danes] are all infidels, you are not wrong."
Is it NPOV to say this is misinformation? This is a judgment, not a statement of fact. I don't think the "neutral" voice of the article can stand up an say it's false. The other referenced item of "misinformation" includes "the lack of right to build mosques," which is verifiably false if there are mosques in Denmark.
Perhaps the second bullet under "misinformation" should move down to the "statements" section. As an Anonymous Coward, I don't want to make this edit myself.
=== Currency ===
The Overview section states, "For weeks, numerous huge demonstations [sic] and other protests against the cartoons have taken place worldwide." This phrasing implies they are recent or current events. Considering how far this topic is from the headlines today (June, 2006), I think the article could be edited to put the events in the past. Also, the word "demonstrations" is misspelled. (Same Anonymous Coward reticence as above.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.42.184.35 (talk • contribs) . 
: Indeed currency in articles happens as a result of editors suffering from recentism. By all means edit away (and there's no need to discuss spelling mistakes save differences between American and British English norms. ) Netscott 01:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Misinformation" 

message: The Overview section states, "For weeks, numerous huge demonstations [sic] and other protests against the cartoons have taken place worldwide." This phrasing implies they are recent or current events. Considering how far this topic is from the headlines today (June, 2006), I think the article could be edited to put the events in the past. Also, the word "demonstrations" is misspelled. (Same Anonymous Coward reticence as above.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.42.184.35 (talk • contribs) . 
: Indeed currency in articles happens as a result of editors suffering from recentism. By all means edit away (and there's no need to discuss spelling mistakes save differences between American and British English norms. ) Netscott 01:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Currency