Talk:Battle of Plataea

message: Aren't there any legends or points of interest concerning this battle?
A day-runner (Pheideppide's job) brought news to the Oracle at Delphi and from there sacred fire, doing the 100+ km trip on the same day Ikokki 23:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  legends 

message: it says the number of persians was probably under 80 000 but then it says that the persains suffered 200 000 casualties. It doesn't make sense.
The >200,000 figure was from Herodotus.  But that is beside the point.  I think these numbers are all inflated.  It's impossible to imagine even 80,000 Persians at the battle, and the 110,000 Greek figure is also almost certainly massively inflated.  Countries at that time simply were not capable of fielding, equipping, and supplying armies of that size, especially over long lines of communications (like from Anatolia to Greece).  The largest army Rome ever fielded was the one at Cannae, around 87,000, and Rome was far more capable of fielding large armies that Greece or Persia (especially at long distance).
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Herodotus actually gives 300.000 as the number of the Persian forces in Plataea of which 40.000 under Artavazus did not take part in the battle because their leader disagreed with Mardonius's strategy and left, forming the mass of the survivors. This detachment however was later defeated by the forces of Alexander I at the delta of the Strymon river. J.A.R. Munro and Macan at  Cambridge Ancient History  volume IV confirm the 300.000 figure by noting that under Mardonius the where 6 superior military commanders (one of whom was Artavazus) and 29 "μυριαρχοι" that is literally leaders of 10.000 soldiers. The Persian Empire under Xerxes had a population of over 20.000.000 inhabitants, meaning 300.000 soldiers is only 1,5% of its population when historically under war at least 5% of a state's population get drafted. The preparations for the campaign took some 4 years and that Herodotus mentions 46 different nations and that includes peoples as far as modern-day Afghanistan. The wealth of the Persian treasury was such that it fueled and paid for wars for 50 years after Alexander the Great's death. Also among the preparations was having food and supplies stored all the way to the edge of the Persian empire of 480 BC, that is the border of the kingdom of Macedonia. Thus I don't understand why the Persians could not have fielded such a large army. Rome had a much smaller population base than Persia and thus could gather a smaller army. Let us not forget however that Polybius give a high 6-number figure as the size of the whole army Rome was capable of rallying in the 2nd century BC. 
As for the Greeks Herodotus gives a field army of 38.700 hoplites and 71.300 light troops. He goes on and breaks down the hoplites by city-state giving very realistic numbers, which are quite consistant with the army numbers given by Thucydides for the Peloponesian War 50 years later considering the rise in population and wealth in that these fifty years. For the light troop armies the only number that can be honestly debates is the 35.000 helots, that is 7 helots for every Lacedemonian. If however every helot was drafted (something understandable since you don't want a fifth column lying around at home) that number is consistent with the male population of helots as can be implied from archeological data. For the losses Herodotus might give 156 but Plutarch gives a more realistic 1360. I think the page out to be revised to show at least arguements why the armies were that big.Ikokki 23:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just realised that the anon had also been edit-warring in the Battle of Mycale. He delivered me a personal attack because he couldn't take the truth, I think we can't expect a lot of neutrality from him. Miskin 10:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You asked for my source and I provided them. I bet the phrase "inferiority of the Persians" hit a weak spot, but it was part of the citation and whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. If you edit-war because you think that someone's source is not real, it will eventually get you blocked. You have shown hostile and chauvinist behaviour, therefore you no longer deserve any respect from my part. I'm adding the maxima numbers provided by Diodorus and if you continue rv-warring, I'll report you both for edit-warring as an anon (which is frowned upon) and for making personal attacks. Miskin 23:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Please don't revert more than three times in a 24-hour period. Try to resolve the issue by polite discussion, it will get you farther. Perhaps you could add a sidenote that so-and-so contradicts so-and-so or something. I'm sure it can be worked out with a little cooperation. But reverting is edit warring and the one who reverts to three first can be blocked from editing for a short time. --DanielCD 01:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  contradiction 

message: We do not need an edit war over this issue. Let us set up a section on what was the size of Persian army, or better yet an article. BTW that Hellas NET site you put up mr Canadian anonymous is maintained by a Dutch. Ikokki 08:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit warring

message: When discussing about enemy army sizes in Plataea in the end boils down to how reliable are ancient sources compared to modern historians. Because the fighting earlier took place when I was asleep I did not have time to elaborate on my position. In general, even modern Western historians, start from what is given out of ancient sources. In the Cambridge History of Ancient Greece (which is given away in leaflets by the newspaper Ta Nea) the text gives constant references to ancient Greek sources. Bury or Bengtson or Champollion, when they were first writing that the numbers are small also had a great knowledge of ancient sources. This however does not mean that we must agree with their conclusions. All historians start by listing numbers by ancient sources. Greek historians who have to publish articles in scholarly journals if they want to get promoted in their universities. Anyway most are socialists, leading to freakish statements like the one calling EOKA an organisation of ultraconservatism. In describing the Persian army ancient sources are consistent that it was huge. Herodotus gives huge numbers, Xenophon gives huge numbers, Arrian gives huge numbers, Ctesias (who was thought to be writting Persian propaganda) gives huge numbers, Justinus gives huge numbers, Cornelius Nepos gives huge numbers etc. Either every historian of antiquity was lying or the Persians did field large armies. That does not mean I accept the numbers they give because they do exaggerate at times, but it does not mean that I do not think they were large. How large were the armies fielded? Lets talk about Herodotus. He gives 700,000 as the force that invaded Scythia and 80,000 as that under Mardomius that stayed behind to finish the job. Did Darius invade with 700,000? Most probably not. This is the number given to him by the Scythians, when he visited them 70 or so years later, enlargened by the fear it produced. 80,000 staying behind under Mardonius is realistic. Herodotus probably talked to someone close to Mardonius. On the battle of Plataea, which is what interests us here, Herodotus gives at least twice the Persian army as 300,000. He also gives us info on what happened inside Mardonius's staff. Obviously he had talked to someone on Mardonius staff. Even if the one who gave Herodotus the 80,000 number does not exist and I made a bad assumption earlier, he most definitely talked to Alexander of Macedon whose propaganda he repeats. Anyway, the only time Iphicrates managed to defeat with lighter troops a phallanx he had a 7 to 1 numerical advantage. 3 to one for archers seems realistic. Ikokki 08:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone must have screwed it accidentaly. I'll fix it back.Should have checked it out earlier...Ikokki 21:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: On the reliability of ancient sources and modern historians

message: I think it would be beneficial to include a second opinion on the Persian Warbox numbers, let's try Diodorus. He claims only 100,000 Persians died. I will input this stat in the casualties with his name in brackets and write beside "Only 43,000 survived..." I will write Herodotus. I will also include Diodorus' figure in the article itself. Thus my changes to the article are as stated in the discussion board. Anyone agree, diagree etc.?--Arsenous Commodore 21:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualty Figures 

message: why is there a cross next to Mardonius' name ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by B-rat (talk • contribs) 17:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because he died Ikokki 15:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  strange 

message: mistake in the first paragraph: "and with it the Persians were expelled from Greece forever."
persia continued to play athens against sparta, supporting one side then the other, for years to ensure that both would remain weak by fighting each other.  King's Peace, anyone?  the quoted part above is stupid and now you know that it is.
I think maybe that referred to further Persian conquest of Greece, rather than political influence. Spartan198 (talk) 00:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: uh

message: The statement in the article, that Spartan armies always included 'few actual Spartans,' is subject to intensive, and by no means resolved historical debate, several of the figures include; Anderson (1970), Gomme (1970), Lazenby (1985), Cartledge (1987) and, recently, Singor (2002). There are many historical occurences of 'mixed' forces, as opponents will be aware, but there is intense debate as to whether these were the norm or exceptions. Will therefore remove the reference and will ask for it to stay removed unless someone solves this debate once and for all for the wider world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.40.26.169 (talk) 19:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will remove detail of 'mixed' Spartan army 

message: Some of the sourcing for the figures are very weak. Having spoken to Miskin, he agrees also that Wikipedia English should be composed of mainly Western scholarship consensus, especially when it comes to something as headline as the warbox. All other minority sources can be included in article text or footnoting. But ostensibly Herodotus 300,000 figure is a blatant exaggeration which does not even need to be in the warbox. Cteisas can stay because more modern estimates back that as the maximum range. Many sources argue that the best way to calculate how many Persians there were at this battle, was to analyze from the 2,000 squared metre stockade (I'm not sure of the dimension but I can get back on this). But the conclusion comes to an estimate of 70,000-120,000. Besides there are plenty of sourced citations in the actual article. Why aren't they given the same weigh in the warbox. Asides from Hammond, no modern scholar accepts anymore than 120,000 for the Persian strength. And even NGL is dubious because he claims that their were only 242,000 in Thermopylae and the invasion force. Reading NGL Cambridge work thoroughly shows that he does not independently suggest 300,000, but merely points out without his own established comments that, that was Herodotus' claim, without supporting or rejecting it. JAR Munro and Macan merely note what Herodotus had said, regarding the baivarabam. They make no independent estimate of the Persian force, thus cannot be counted as an advocator. Besides Macan and Munro, merely state double what Gobineau did (which was 180,000 for the original invasion force). Since they suggested 350,000 Persians at the invasion. There is no way they can be used to back 300,000 at Plataea, considering the casualties in attrition, Artemisium, Thermopylae, Salamis and the forces which accompanied Xerxes back. The conclusion is that Herodotus' 300,000 is given much too much undo weigh, and should be replaced in the warbox. Besides, with these figures the whole flow of the Greco Persian Wars on Wiki won't make sense, there was already an agreement that by modern western scholarship, the original invasion force was about 200,000. Below I will give a list of authors who support different figures, which I will then put in the warbox.--Arsenous Commodore 15:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The following is a list of sources for the Persian strength at Plataea.
Jona Lendering From Livius: 120,000
Peter Connolly From Military History Online: No larger than 120,000.http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/ancient/plataea/default.aspx
Peter Green: 50,000+ (Including 20,000+ Medizing Greeks). http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/ancient/plataea/default.aspx
Burn: 60,000-70,000 (Based on Stockade) http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/plataea.htm
Mark Drury: 120,000. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/B_xerxes.html
Tom Holland in his book "Persian Fire:" 70,000-120,000. 
Hellas.Net "Monolith:" 48,000. 
Beloch and De Sanctis: 70,000 (50,000 Persian + 20,000 Greek allies)   
I think what seems most suitable for the warbox is 70,000-120,000 (Modern Consensus). We can leave Herodotus in the paragraph text, and also note near it that Cteisas gives a reasonable primary source estimate.--Arsenous Commodore 16:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've also realized that much of the references in this page are in Greek, doesn't that sort of create a conflict of interest, since naturally Greek and Persian sources will be giving polar extremes on figures and events. I'll try to neutralize it with some Western Scholarship. But if anyone can help me out, it would be nice, I'm still a bit of a novice at sourcing. Thanks.--Arsenous Commodore 16:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Figures in General 

message: I've added only three of the above sources to the warbox consensus figure range. I think it would be best if the rest were included in a separate headline known as "Size of the Opposing Armies". And there we could incorporate both the remaining modern sources and those figures given by a few ancient primary source scholars, such as Herodotus, Plutarch and Cteisas. To do this I suppose all army estimations are going to have to be re-located I suppose. I'd like to hear other views too.--Arsenous Commodore 20:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Categorization 

message: Why the inclusion of the Macedonian phalanx illustration? This particular variation of the phalanx with it's use of the sarissa was invented more than a century after the battle of Platea. It should to be eliminated. Alcmaeonid 15:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: excellent point. I was gonna say it but u r first. I suggest rewording the long paragraph. In fact i will.  Tourskin 02:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading Illustration 

message: I was just looking over the figures provided in regard to the battle and I see that it says there were 10,000 Spartans present at the battle. I can't actually find a source for these given numbers. I'm reading figures recorded by Herodotus and he gives the same overall force number of 38,700 heavy-armed infantry but he states there were 5,000 Spartans present (and several other figures differ too)
I think there were only 5,000 Spartans present, as there were apparently 35,000 light-armed Helots present since the Ephors were said to have given seven helots for each Spartan. This number is given in the actual article too, so there is a discrepancy somewhere. 
I'll list the numbers I have and you can see for yourself that they differ from the listed ones (Mine I believe are the Herodotus recorded numbers)
5000 spartans
5000 other Lacedaemonians (most likely Perioki)
1500 Tegea
5300 Corinth
600 Arcadia
3000 Sicyon
800 Epidaurus
2900 combined from Troezen, Lepreum, Mycenae, Tiryns, Phlius and Hermion
These were all Peloponnesians
Also:
8000 Athens
3000 Megara
600 Plataea
500 Aegina
600 Eretria
400 Chalcis
1500 from the islands of western Greece.
Total: 38700
If someone could help me primarily work out the Spartan discrepancy I would be much obliged, I also would like it if we could source the given numbers? The numbers I have provided come from Herodotus and since he is sourced and credited throughout the article heavily I feel his numbers should be the ones we rely on.
Thanks Akaricloud (talk) 14:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  5000 Spartans? 

message: I cropped this part of the article. I felt 6 lines talking about the last scene of 300 was much too much and was more a review then reference to popular culture. Feel free to revert it if you wish, but I hope it sticks
Akaricloud (talk) 01:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Culture 

message: If you do simple math its easy, concerning Herodotus saying 43,000 casaulties for the Persians, its then 77,000-257,000 KIA, so I mean by 43+77=120, and 43+257=300, or in thousands I mean 300,000 which Herodotus gives for the Persian numbers so there is no debate here, now if he is right or wrong I do not know, but I know basic math, thanks.--Ariobarza (talk) 04:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maths 

message: This article doesn't flow well due to too much quibbling over numbers being injected right into the article.  Right when the reader starts to get a feel for what's going on, he is immediately bogged down in an ongoing debate over the numbers with a lot of hemming and hawing over sources and accusations of bias.  It would read a lot better if we could put all the accusations of bias and disputes into some other section and turn the rest of it into something readable.  --128.222.37.21 (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article flow / backpedaling 

message: The site linked to in the majority of the references throws up an error. It appears the page has moved, and can now be found at this link. CWardUSC (talk) 17:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  References Need Updating 

message: What are the references that the modern consensus is that only 10,000 out of the 70-120,000 Persians died? Simanos (talk) 20:19, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can no one answer this? I'm going to change it soon then.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simanos (talk • contribs) 10:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian Casualties Modern References needed explanation 

message: The reason for the stand-off between armies before the battle is given as being 'primarily tactical'. It should probably be mentioned that that is a modern interpretation. Herodotus, our main source, emphasizes bad omens and oracles. It seems to unduly secularize the motivations of the men involved to describe the battle as if we 'really know' that the interpretation of oracles was symbolic of rational military strategizing. This seems to risk anachronism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.200.245 (talk) 12:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motivation for delay in fighting 

message: "although they paid a high price by losing most of their men"
The article needs a better source than Holland to support this conclusion.  First time I have ever come across this view.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.43.101 (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek Casualty Figures 

message: Substituted at 09:12, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm concerned that this article relies so heavily on Tom Holland's book Persian Fire. Holland is not a professional scholar, and while his historical books have been generally well reviewed as popular works, they have also been criticized for tending to fictionalization and anachronism.  This isn't to say that book can't be used as a source, but the article would be stronger if it relied more on scholarly works. The Uncle of History (talk) 23:24, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian Fire 

message: I feel that "before (Achaemenid Persia) taking possession of the now-evacuated city of Athens." sound too soft, especially since later on, Athens is mentioned as a destroyed city in the next paragraph.
About Beligerents, I believe it's best to put the names the Greek city states that fought with Persia in that blue box. -- I know it has been mentioned multiple times that some Greeks fought with/under Persia and I'm sure they can technically be counted as Persians like other nations under Persia, but people might still get the wrong idea that all of Greek unite against Persia since they are called either "Greek army" or "the Allies". Allslsl (talk) 09:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Backgrounds and Beligerents