Talk:Mia (game)

message: Since this game involves bluffing, and thus is a game of strategy, it would be helpful to know something about the relative strength of rolls. This isn't as obvious as it may first appear, since there are two ways to make all the mixed rolls (6-5 and 5-6 both amount to a result of 65) but only one way to make each of the pairs. What this means is that, while it may appear that 61 or 62 are decent, "middling" rolls (since they land in the middle of the list of possible results, they are actually quite strong--54 (a roll of 5-4 or 4-5) is in fact the "middle" result, the one which makes it roughly an even proposition that the next person in line will either beat the roll or be beaten by it. Anyway, something like this is what I'm talking about... --Buck 07:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strategy 

message: The article for Kuriki details a rule set nearly the same.  The only differences are one distinction on equipment and that non-doubled dice are tallied instead of adding ten to the highest of the two dice rolled.
I believe it would be more beneficial to merge the articles and place one or the other under a variations section and suggest using this article as the final article.  MrHen 04:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless Kuriki is to be deleted entirely, I think it should be merged into Mia, with a redirect here.--Niels Ø (noe) 20:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with Kuriki 

message: In Denmark, the game is called "Meyer", which is a farily common last name (family name), sounding very much like an English pronunciation of "Mia" or "Maya" (where as a Dane would pronounce "mia" as "me-ah"). 
The sequence of the throws is 
*Meyer (21)
*little Meyer (31)
*pair six (66)
*pair five (55)
*...
*pair one (11)
*65
*64
*...
*32
Note the order of the pairs here. 31 is called "lille Meyer" (little Mia) and relocated in the sequence as the second best throw.
Lying to state a lower value than you actually have is pointless. If you choose to believe the previous player, you have to throw at least the same (i.e. not necessarily more). Passing the throw on to the next player is only an option when Meyer is declared - by passing you only lose 1 point. The player announcing Meyer keeps the responsibility for the roll. If a player further down the line exposes it as a lie, he will lose two points. 
You also have another possibility. After looking at your own throw, you can roll the dices again and without looking you can say "At least the same!", and then pass it on to the next player. You can also add to the value. For example, if a player announces 54. You roll a lesser value. Instead of lying you could say for instance "62 or above".
Players usually start with 6 lives, indicated by a die showing the side 6 in front of each player.
Reference: http://www.spillemagasinet.dk/spilleregler/meyer/
--Niels Ø (noe) 20:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meyer 

message: The article states that Mia is a very old dice game. The sole reference or external link in the article is to a page that obviously isn't a relaible source. I think we should refrain from making statements about the age, unless other sources can be found.--Niels Ø (noe) 21:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Age of the game 

message: As the Kuriki article is up for deletion, I saved the only really crucial piece of info from that page (see Scoring, Variants). Then I removed the Merge template. I'll return later to see if I can find a Kuriki reference. Cheers, CapnZapp (talk) 13:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with Kuriki, cont'd 

message: After having tried to find some sources for this page I have failed to find any conclusive evidence of the game origins but about 20+ names. I am not convinced that Mia is clearcut choice of name.
currently there is a:
*Kinito page that exists on France wikipedia and as Quinito on Spanish wiki 
Wikipedia also has
*Mexico (game)
There used to be an article on kuriki as can be seen in the above discussions
*Kuriki wikibin.org/articles/kuriki.html
Other names to consider include
*Maxchen  
*Maxchen (Meiern) 
*Maya 
*Meier 
*Mexican ehow and 
*Deception 
Other names exist as listed in Bgg  and for an android application 
To add to this are other phrases such as Kiriki, Kariki Little Max, Lugen, Maior,Mire.
There appear to be two completely distinct introductions kariki, kiriki, kuriki. Seems to be Japanese in origin to explain the change in the first vowel. Then there is the French Kinito that could be a separate derivation or linked to kiriki if old enough.
Deception is a modern adapation.
My concern is that the etymology of this game strongly suggests a Central American origin. With the Mayan adjective being used for Mexico too. I suspect that Mia is a corruption of Maya. it has been suggested that Maxchen is a Germanization of the word Mexican. But since there is the name "little Max" this suggests that the game is at least old enough to have been reintroduced to English.
While Mexican might seem to be a sensible choice there are other sources giving Mexican as the Liar's dice variant. Similarly, Mexico has some deviation from the rules in some sources by adding scoring.
Without the reliable sources I am tempted to re-anglicize Mia to Maya. Almost certainly Kinito needs to be merged .Tetron76 (talk) 13:05, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See section above too because of edit conflict.Tetron76 (talk) 13:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems likely the game has a fairly long history undocumented in the literature. This makes it difficult to argue about which one of a list of names that sound alike but are spelled differently is the "right" one. Of course we must make a choice (with redirects from other names), and this ought to be based on reliable sources... Oh, I don't know.--Nø (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

text: I agree that Quinito looks promising. The article :es:Kiriki (juego) has a lot more details quite similar to the present game and says it's a Basque game derived from Quinito. So maybe it's an old Spanish or Basque game after all. The general rule for games as for dialects and many other areas is that because of the founder effect, the region that has the greatest variability is usually the region of origin. Hans Adler 10:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: From having found the original wiki kuriki article, I think that kiriki, karaki and kuriki can be dismissed. I suspect that there is a dice game from the far east that has this name but it seems that the recent usage was just made-up. My concern with Quinito is the comment on the Spanish page that states "that older people know it with a different name".Tetron76 (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

text: An iPhone app of the game claims that it's also known as Major, Sinclair or Les Indiens. But this French discussion is really interesting as it gives many new names: Pache go zone (without the special role of 21), Kinetto/Kinito/Quinito, Duduche, Maya, La Mer. This French page mentions Duduche and Rampo as names and has an excellent description of the rules including strategy. The greater variation of names in French and the fact that some of them are clearly Spanish suggests to me that the game could in fact originate around the Pyrenees. From there it would naturally have been taken to South America. But the evidence is so weak that this is just speculation. Hans Adler 10:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that there willl turn out to be two options. Either we re-write the Liar's dice article to cover any game with the bluffing mechanism and stick to sourcing the rules in Dudo, Mia and Liar's dice (poker dice) Possibly using the commercial names as primary of Perudo, Deception and Bluff. Or we pick the English version of the German or french names : Maya, Mexican or Kinito.Tetron76 (talk) 16:15, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have ordered the German book "Humboldt Enzyklopädie der Würfelspiele", which I hope will give some more insight. They wouldn't deliver it to Austria, so it's making a detour that will delay delivery by about two weeks. Rainer Knizia's book "Dice games properly explained" might be even more helpful, but I will wait for this book first. Hans Adler 16:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Name for this article

message: As I was getting confused, here is a list of related games that appear on one of the Wikipedia versions (and are in a dice game category). I will probably add additional web sources with rules and further information later. I did not include the commercially produced game Perudo, which according to the publisher is based on a South American game. Hans Adler 19:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been very deep following up various dead-ends via google in many languages. I found a few books on drinking games giving the name of this game as Mexican with aliases, but what is clear is that there is a cross-over of names! The only conclusion that can be drawn is that the game has many names and few sourcable variants. This will affect Dudo and Liar's dice too. Tetron76 (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

text: *I think this is a red herring, but for the record, the name of the unusual Danish dice & board game Daldøs may mean 1-2 (as Dal is the name of the throw 1 in this game, and Døs may be related to Deucey). However, the throw 1-2 has no special significance in this game, weakening this etymology.--Nø (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is an interesting game that I hadn't heard of. The name also from the boardgamestudies articles could have originally meant two dice. "dal" has old English connections to a word meaning knuckle bones. It also gives some useful indications of how easily games might spread. There is a possible connection to the Jackals game , but what is most interesting is that it uses specialist dice and can still only be traced 170 years. Tetron76 (talk) 20:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related articles and sources (not necessarily reliable) 

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thread_title:  External links modified