Talk:Flag of Denmark

message: I have no opinion on the best WEB-color to use, but there is a precise standard for eveything - including the color - of a true Danish flag (from the Danish Standards Board):
Dansk Standard Nummer DS 359:2005 
Titel Flagdug (Woven fabrics for flags)
The standard specifies materials, weaving techniques, quality requirements and dimensions for Danish flags. 
Issued 2005-03-29 Approved 2005-02-24 
The picture of Dannebrog seems to be using a too light tone of red. I know, that standard convention seems to be to use Pantone basic red (032), but that doesn't seem to translate very well to a computer monitor. The images on www.danmarks-samfundet.dk are using RGB=219,0,6, which seems to be much closer.
What do you think about replacing it with this? :
Secondly, shouldn't we be using the correct proportions of 3:1:3 x 3:1:4.5 rather than 3:1:3 x 3:1:5.25. The latter one is supposed to compensate for wear and tear, which we (hopefully) will not be having here.
Rasmus (talk) 30 June 2005 10:44 (UTC)
*Hello!  I think the current flag colour used (PMS032) is fine; red is red.  I also uploaded a smaller image than in prior use: there is no need for such a large image that was actually of inferior quality (due to pixellation/anti-aliasing).  I thought about creating a flag image that was longer; however, this would 'differ' from the specifications that appear with numerous flags below.  Thoughts? E Pluribus Anthony 30 June 2005 11:42 (UTC)
:: Well, here is an actual photo of a Danish flag: http://www.zeppelin-museum.dk/D/german/aktuell/akt2004/HPIM0239a.jpg, as you can see it is not nearly as pale as the one in the article. Also, please note that Pantone is not designed for computer monitors, and while Photoshop can convert Pantone to RGB-values, they do not necessarily replicate the actual Pantone colour.
:: As for the proportions, I am actually arguing for having the flag shorter. The correct proportions for the flag are 28:34. Actual flags are allowed to be slightly longer (28:37), so that there is no risk of them getting too short due to wear.
:: Rasmus (talk) 30 June 2005 13:01 (UTC)
:  Hi there; thanks for your reply.  As a designer, I'm aware of the differences inherent with PMS and other colour-matching systems like RGB, CMYK, RSL, etc.; my point is that the colours represented should be official ones, not approximated ... irregardless of approximations when converting them.  This can also apply to photographs, so your perception of what is the correct red may be different from mine (though I do not challenge your belief that the red in the picture is darker than in the flag image).  Without there being an agreed-upon standard for representing colours, the current one should suffice or one be used that can be found on or sampled from a Danish government website depicting the flag.  (This same rationale, by the way, was applied to the Flag of Canada, which uses the same red, and was a collaboration between myself and another user.)
:Ditto for length: to make everything consistent (i.e., as long as it's authoritative, or has the most commonly used dimensions); however, it would be advisable to edit the appropriate references in-text, as well as the diagrams, too to ensure that the flag represented is consistent.  Thoughts?  E Pluribus Anthony 30 June 2005 17:23 (UTC)
Just for info. I can tell that the Danish Military (Navy, Army, Air force, home guard) uses the absolute proportions of the Danish flag e.g. 28x34 (3.1.3 / 3.1.4,5) for the little flag on the uniforms shoulder they started using in 2001. That’s 10 million flags or something like that (they are on all cloth). However if you go and buy a flag, you are nearly sure to get the 28x37 (3.1.3 / 3.1.5,25) proportion. Twthmoses 19:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colour and Proportions 

message: I can see that User:E Pluribus Anthony and User:Haabet have had (and still have) a battle of the color of the Danish flag. It constantly changes color.
I do know that colors display different of different monitors, and I do know that there is no absolute color for the Danish flag. Despite that colors display different on monitors, it is not the color that is different; it is the display that is different. xxxx color, set in x paint program, is still color [inset name here], despite that it might look different on x monitor.
I live in Denmark, I see the flag everyday, and to me user:E Pluribus Anthony version is definitely wrong. It is way too light. I have tried it on 6 different monitors now, and short of turning the lights down to barely visible, the flag is definitely way way way to light. I suspect user:E Pluribus Anthony has a very dark monitor.
Lets settle this now. Everybody who has an opinion, please leave some comment.
Civil flag
* 1 = User:E Pluribus Anthony Anthony version
* 2 = 186 pure red.
* 3 = version found on commons.
* 4 = something between 2 and 3
Stateflag (This has to be the exactly the same color as the civil flag)
* 1 = User:E Pluribus Anthony version
* 2 = 186 pure red.
* 3 = version found on commons.
* 4 = something!
Naval flag (Deep dark red)
Anybody who has seen this flag in the real is not in doubt, that this is deep dark blood red flag. I’m not even sure any of these are dark enough.
* 1 = User:E Pluribus Anthony version
* 2 = 166 pure red.
* 3 = version found on commons.
* 4 = something different
Please state what you think is the correct color.
My opinion
* Civil flag, No. 4 I guess, it looks very close the one used in the Danish military. Stateflag the same. Actually the one above on this page is not bad either. User:E Pluribus Anthony version has to go, that is for sure.
* Naval flag, No 2 or some mix between no. 2 and no. 3.
Twthmoses 04:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If it helps anything, eventually look at www.dannebrog.dk to compare colour. In the versions shown above, I'd prefer the darker ones. G®iffen 15:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What is going on with the Danish flag???

message: I've reverted the SVG flag recently uploaded with the prior one.  Why?  The SVG flag (though potentially superior) has a transparent cross in place of a white background/cross.  This is incorrect: monitors that show these subtle differences in colour will reveal a light blue cross (as it does on mine).  Please recreate the SVG file with said white cross before using it.  Thoughts?  Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 23:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, mea culpa. Fixed now. IceKarmaॐ 06:04, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice ... thanks!  By the way: do you know if there are any other such flag images (i.e., not of Denmark per se) lurking? E Pluribus Anthony 06:47, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The image used a too purple red. I have uploaded a new version using the #ce1126 agreed upon earlier. Rasmus (talk) 21:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Hmmmm. Apparently IceKarma reverted my change. I will give him a chance to explain before I rerevert (I might have introduced some other problems - I am not that great with SVG). Rasmus (talk) 09:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't stop!  You're doing good work; we all just need to discuss when appropriate.  And as you can see above, any of us can go wayward. ;) E Pluribus Anthony 20:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New flag image

message: The section on other theories of the origin of the flag contains a lot of very interesting information, but the subtitles are somewhat awkward.  Perhaps it would be better to title the subsections with the names of the people who came up with the theories rather than with a number?  For example, we could have a section titled "Jørgensen's theory" (or something like that) instead of "Theories of the origin of the flag, #4".  Any thoughts?  I would just be bold and make the changes myself, right now, but I don't know much about the topic and I don't want to make a mistake as I did with my edits to the first line.  I think this article is very interesting, but right now there are parts of it that are very awkwardly written and I'd like to help improve the quality of the writing if I can. NoIdeaNick 13:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Subtitles in other theories section

message: The article Flag of Austria states that the oldest design of the current Austrian flag dates back to 1230, while this article says the Danish flag is from the 14th Century (1300s). Thus, one or the other has to be wrong. Is it the date in Flag of Austria, or should this article's wording on the topic be changed? --HJV 00:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, Austria used a different flag for a long period of time, so in any case, the Danish flag seems to be the oldest state flag in continuous use. But it would be nice to hear some more input regarding the history of the Babenberger flag. Valentinian T / C 12:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldest? 

message: Did Iceland also use Danebrog before they got independent?
:I'm pretty sure the Dannebrog remained official until Iceland cut the last ties to Denmark in 1944, but Iceland's current flag was no doubt the preferred flag, and used since at least 1915 (see: Flag of Iceland). It seems that Icelandic republicans had also used an earlier blue-white flag before the current one was adopted. Until around 1900, the Danneborg must have been the only flag in use, just like in Norway before 1814. Valentinian (talk) 23:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Iceland also use Danebrog  

message: I've moved the following section from article space since most of it is incomprehensible without the original (deleted) image. We need to find a new image. Valentinian T / C 12:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from article space 

message: I think there is a problem with terminology on this page. However, I hesitate to rush in and edit text written by peope who have obviously done much more research on this than I.
The article gives the impression that "stutflag" is Danish the flag used on land, and that the Danish "koffardiflag" happens to be identical to this. Actually that is not the case. A stutflag is any rectangular flag. Every version of the Stars and Stripes known to me is a "stutflag". I believe the English term is "square". "Koffardiflag" is one of the uses of the Danish "stutflag".
Similarly one gets the impression that "splitflag" is a name of the Danish state flag, and at the naval flag is not a "splitflag". Any swallowtail is a "splitflag". The state flag is a "splitflag" in the same colors as the national flag, the navy flag is a "splitflag" the color of clotted blood.
Would it not be better to leave out these Danish terms alltogether? Why write "splitflag" when English has the word "swallowtail" of the same meaning? "Square" might need to be explained to those not familliar with its special meaning in this context, but so does "stutflag".
--Klausok 07:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stutflag and splitflag 

message: I've removed a statement claiming that the flag of Scotland is the world's oldest national flag (in contrast to a "state flag"). This topic has been the object of a very long edit war on the flag article between Scottish and Spanish editors, since Aragon's Senyera claims the same title. No consensus seems to be emerging regarding this issue, and I believe a Persian editor has even claimed that a Persian flag is even older (can't remember the specifics of this example, though.) Anyway, information of this nature has little relevance for this article, since it does not affect the object of the article, and this edit war should not be brought over here. I don't consider information about the Dannebrog relevant in the article about the Scottish flag, either. Valentinian T / C 23:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag of Scotland 

message: According to the vexillological icon below the Danneborg(Koffardiflaget), it is only a state flag, but from National Flag Section of the article you may say that it is also Civil Flag and Civil Ensign(article clearly says that civil flag and civil ensign are same but also do not mention any differenses with state flag) so think we should change vexillological icon, or if there are some differense between these flags we should provide explonation of them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.4.32 (talk) 15:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civil Flag/Ensign 

message: Besides rules for the proportions of the flag there is also rules in for the size of the flag pole compared to the size of the flag, and there are rules for exactly where the flag should be on the pole for "half staff". I think this information belongs in this article as well.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesper Jurcenoks (talk • contribs) 20:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flagpole proportions to flag. 

message: There are rules for when you can flag, like not before sunrise or after sunset, and rules for the flag not touching the ground. Are these only traditions, are they considered superstition, is there an actual law ?
21:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike many other nations, Denmark has no "flag law" but "Danmarks-Samfundet" has published a publication about conventional use of the flag ("Sådan bruges Dannebrog" ) which mentions the rule you refer to as "fly the flag no earlier than 8 AM and no later than sunset", unless the flag is illuminated by a strong electric light. In popular terminology violation of this rule is indeed known as "Flying the flag for the Devil" (at flage for Fanden). In addition to the two rules you mention, a third one is rather important: a damaged flag must never be used. It must either be displayed is a glass case hanging on a wall (if of historical interest) or destroyed by fire. At first sight, the last option sounds odd or harsh, but the intention is that a flag must never be dishonoured by being disposed of as garbage [read: "be thrown on a dung heap"]. So a flag damaged beyond repair is to be burned in a dignified fashion. In addition, Danish law explicitly permits the flying of the Danish flag and the flags of the other Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland) and by extention the flags of the Faroes, Greenland, and Åland. Later this law was amended to legalise flying the flag of the EU and of the UN. However, flying all other flags is forbidden unless temporary permission is granted by the local police, and in such cases the Dannebrog must be flown with the foreign flag and on a more prominent position. This rule is of particular importance in South Jutland, since the German flag is treated like all other non-Nordic flags. Valentinian T / C 22:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

text: I see that here is no source for this superstition. I have never heard of it. My impression (but I have no source either) is that there is a tradition that a national or similar flag must never touch the ground or floor as this would indicate disrespect for the nation it represents.--Klausok (talk) 07:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Danmarks-Samfundet mentions the rule about ensuring that the flag shouldn't touch the ground,  (p. 23), and describes it as essentially a practical tradition [to avoid damaging the flag], and that the basic intention is to treat the flag with dignity. . In addition, some organisations have their own rules to observe as well (e.g. the army must have rules covering this issue). 2.107.68.46 (talk) 14:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flage for Fanden / Flag for the Devil. 

message: The flag looks very similar to the flag of the Holy Roman Empire (right). Is that its origin? 88.91.14.78 (talk) 14:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That is one theory, and several Danish kings were indeed vassals of the Holy Roman Emperor. In Denmark, a more popular theory is that it is simply a crusader flag. It is very similar to the flag of the Knights of St. John ("Johannitterne"; see the sections on "Caspar Paludan-Müller and "Adolf Ditlev Jørgensen"), and btw also similar to the flag of Savoy. Unfortunately the earliest historical record of the flag is the Gelre Armorial from c. 1370-1380 which is a good historical source, but the legend of the Battle of Lyndanisse with the flag falling from the sky on 5 June 1219 is not documented earlier than the 16th century. The origins of the flag remain obscure. Valentinian T / C 22:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taken from the Holy Roman Empire? 

message: The Guinness Book of Records is not a credible vexillological source.
You may use it to cite that there is a popular meme of the flag being the "oldest state flag, adopted 1219", but this doesn't make it so. There was no concept of "state flag" in 1219, and Wikipedia can do better than parrot soundbites from the Guinness Book of Records.
By all means discuss the flag's pre-modern history. There are many flags which have medieval precedents. 
If the flag of Denmark was adopted in 1219, why, the flag of Switzerland was "adopted" around 1200, because it "is" the Reichssturmfahne. 
In reality, the  Reichssturmfahne is a medieval precedent of both the Danish and the Swiss flag, which by a complicated history of the development of the idea of modern statehood was adopted as the respective national flags, with slight modern design variations, in the modern era. --dab (𒁳) 11:06, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't disagree that the 1219 is a myth. My main objection was to your seemingly random choice of the 1748 date for adoption. I have now changed it to the earliest documented use cited with the official denmark.dk site. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

text: And the Guinness Book of Records is certainly a reliable source regarding claims made by the Guinness Book of Records. It would perhaps be a questionable source if the wording was "Dannebrog is the "oldest state flag" in the world still in use by an independent nation" and nothing more, but if you read the sentence it states that the Guinness Book of Records "dubbed Dannebrog the "oldest state flag" in the world still in use by an independent nation". --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly, the paragraph you've quoted above doesn't mention the Gelre Armorial, which features the first coloured drawing of the coat-of-arms of Denmark as well as an accompanying Dannebrog banner. It it normally dated to somewhere between 1370 and 1386, and the Danish National Archives considers this image to be the first known image of the Dannebrog.. That indicates an origin of the Danish flag somewhere in the late 14th century. 2.107.68.46 (talk) 12:48, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

text: This legend is found in two sources, Hans Svaning's History of King Hans from 1558–1559 and Johan Rantzau's History about the Last Dithmarschen War, from 1569. Both claim that this was the original flag, and consequently both writers knew the legend of the falling flag. In 1576, the son of Johan Rantzau, Henrik Rantzau, also writes about the war and the fate of the flag.
If these sources do use the word "Dannebrog", this should be made explicit. 
--dab (𒁳) 12:45, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

text: The earliest written evidence stems from the early 16th century, in Christiern Pedersens Chronicles of Denmark, where he mentions that Eric of Pomerania brought various artifacts with him when he left the country, amongst them "Danebroge, ... a banner which God sent the men of Denmark from the sky by his holy angel, that they should lead them into war between them and their enemies, which they often did and won great prize and honour" (Chr. Pedersen, Danske Skrifter, vol. V, (440), 488). The German historian Johann Adolf Köster (also known as Neocorus) wrote the same thing, but claiming that the flag incident occurred in Russia (Neocorus, Chronik Ditmarschens, I 489, II 232). The third source is the monk of the Danish Franciscan friar Peder Olsen (Petrus Olai Saneropius, died 1570), who mentions the incident in his  manuscript of Danish chronicles, but places the incident in 1208 in Felin, Estonia. Concerning pictorial evidence we have various depictions, the earliest being on the seal of Valdemar IV of Denmark (it can be seen on the right on the awning), on the seal of Eric of Pomerania (who was mentioned by the sources as having had the "original" Dannebrog in his possession, it can be seen being held by the 3 lions), it is depicted on a mural from 1498 in Roskilde Cathedral used as a shipsflag on the ship carrying the head of the Saint Lucius, it is shown on the title page of Christiern Pedersen edition of the Gesta Danorum of Saxo Grammaticus from 1514, where there is an illustration of the Danish king and his knights holding a Dannebrog banner. This is all information from A.D. Jørgensen, "Om Danebroges Oprindelse", in: Historiske Afhandlinger, vol. 2., 1899. In that source Jørgensen also claims that the word Danebrog precedes the crossflag, since its construction suggests an origin in Old Danish. I am not that wellversed in Medieval history or linguistics, so I do not know what the status of that claim is in current scholarship, but suffice it to say that the word "Dannebrog" is certainly much older than the 18th century. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: The "1219" red herring

message: In my eyes, all the SVG flags are purplish maroon, not red as I have learned to know the flag. Red is also the color that the photos exhibit. I am not color blind, ergo the SVG images must be erroneously colored. Could someone not color blind perhaps please fix them? Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 18:14, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: From Denmark — Flag colours I get   Pantone 185U (National flag land use), and from the pantone colorfinder I snapshot a color code of #e00034 (perusing the Gimp snapshot function). For naval war use the color should instead be Pantone 193U giving indeed purplish maroon, encoded with #bb133e. (The derived RGB code on the refered Flag colours page seem to be incorrect). Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 18:46, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

text: The SVG images have #d00c33 for the land flag and #a50021 for the naval war flag. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 18:53, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Color again

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is there any reason to use the Estonian spelling in what is essentially an article on Danish history? The battle of Lyndanisse is always so called in Danish (where y and i are pronounced differentl). The article linked is called Battle of Lyndanisse. --Klausok (talk) 17:05, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle of Lyndanisse 

message: @Durian Farmer Do you have a source about the Vertical rotated symbol added to the danish flag? ChaseYUL99 (talk) 20:01, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: meant to type "Vertical normal" sorry Durian Farmer (talk) 20:13, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vertical rotated source 

message: The infobox uses 1625 as date of adoption, but this information is not found anywhere else in the page. The source given i the Guinnes Book fo Records, which is not a reliable source and which doe snot provide any further details on this date. Where does it come from? Is it even accurate? Eccekevin (talk) 06:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  1625? 

message: It could fit with the flag of Ærø, Bornholm and the others. LaggyMcStab (talk) 08:16, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add flag of Christiania to "Other flags in the Kingdom of Denmark" section?