Talk:Paul Wellstone

message: "Mississippi Republican Senator Trent Lott, after being largely heckled by the crowd during his speech, left before the service was over."
It's my impression that while Senator Lott did attend the service (and leave early), he did not give a speech.  (I was in the arena for the service, but I'm relying on my memory here, not on a definite written source.)  Most of the VIPs, of both parties, sat together in one corner of the arena, some distance away from the main dias.  They entered the arena shortly before the beginning of the service, when most of the crowd was already seated, and it was at this time that the Republicans were heckled--not while anyone was giving a speech.  Four large screens hanging in the center of the arena were used to show live TV images of the event, and the cameramen focused in a rather informal way on the VIPs as they entered.  Without those giant images, I don't think very many people in the audience would even have been aware that the VIPs were present, because they were part of a crowd of thousands, and took no part in the ceremony.
I would also like to question the use of the word "largely" in the sentence quoted above.  While booing and hissing certainly occurred, it was not my impression that the crowd was all of one mind about this behavior.
The whole section on the memorial service need to be rewritten. I watched the entire service on TV and it more resembled a political rally than a memorial service. There is no mention in the article on Senator Lott being heckeled, and that there were beach balls bouncing around like a concert. — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 05:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memorial service 

message: "On October 25, 2002, he was murdered at the age of 58 with seven others in a plane crash in northern Minnesota." 
Murdered? Could you change it to killed? As far as we know, no one killed him. -anon
This article seems worth incorporating: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110102_wellstone.html "Was Paul Wellstone Murdered?" by Michael C. Ruppert on From The Wilderness Publications JasonCarswell (talk) 23:15, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murdered? 

message: Some credit the upset defeat to a letter Boschwitz wrote to Wellstone days before the election, accusing him of being a "bad Jew" for marrying a Gentile and not raising his children in the Jewish faith. Wellstone's reply, widely broadcast on Minnesota television, was, "I guess Senator Boschwitz has a problem with Christians, then." Boschwitz, like Wellstone, is Jewish.
it been 15 years and I was in High school at the time but I think Bosch sent that letter to a Jewish group not Wellstone himself, why whould he send a letter to Wellstone? perhaps need to double check that 03:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boschwitz letter 

message: In the paragraph that mentions Cheney at Wellston's (don't get cheeky here--he's not and was not a god Rossp 18:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheney & Memorial Service 

message: Someone before me removed Wellstone from "pro-choice politicians" and then it was reverted. I am reverting for a different reason- should a dead person be included in a list such as that ? I will leva ethe others (such as Jewish Politicians, etc) until clarification. Jcam 01:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deceased persons in certain categories 

message: This sounds like a gratutious introduction of POV; in this case, to characterize the criticism as unfair.
Or it is simply a redundant expression and weak writing. patsw 01:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "justly or not" 

message: The word "liberal" is an adjective, not a noun. 
Removing.
Robko626 14:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Depends on the capitalisation, I would strongly suspect. 'liberal' and 'Liberal' are two separate words. Badgerpatrol 12:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "A" Liberal? 

message: was Wellstones' baby,and was straight out aimed at silencing the NRA,as Wellstone himself stated on the floor of the Senate.I have added these facts to the article,and invite your help to expand this wonderful example of gun control legislation and subverting the Constitution.Saltforkgunman 05:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have attempted to craft an NPOV version, with citations, that everyone can live with. As noted in the addition, there were critics from all across the political spectrum critical of the Wellstone Amendment.  Still, the Supreme Court upheld it, on a split vote.  So, obviously, this could shift on the next challenge to a 4-5 vote, as the court changes.  Yaf 03:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: incumbent protection act of campaign finance reform

message: At least three times, a passage has been reverted out calling Wellstone "the conscience of the Senate".  The reason for this is that there is no attribution or context given.  In the absence of attribution or context, it leaves the appearance that Wikipedia is characterizing Wellstone as "the conscience of the Senate", which is decidedly POV and non-encyclopedic.  Now, if someone can come up with an attribution and context, that would be fine -- something like, "Congresman so-and-so, speaking at Wellstone's funeral, characterized him as 'the conscience of the Senate.'"  Or whatever. Brandon39 04:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "The conscience of the Senate."

message: I don't think I'd characterize the League of Women Voters as a "special interest group".  Aren't they pretty politically neutral? Appraiser 17:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: League of Women Voters

message: When I first began to put in the facts about Wellstones gun control antics, my edits were reverted by someone who was uncomfortable with the new text about his self described political heros.I then enlisted the help of an editor that is better at this than I am.He crafted a NPOV version that he thought everyone could live with.On JUN 08 06 USER Paulhogarth was evidently unable to live with the facts about the Senators remarks on the Senate floor and deleted the last sentence of the paragraph pertaining to the Wellstone Amendment.I reverted to include the NRA reference and one Badgerpatrol came along and reverted out the NRA reference, citing POV.
There is good news, ladies and gentlemen, the saltforkgunman has returned to fight for truth, justice, and the American way.I have put the last sentence of the paragraph back in. 
Deleting sourced facts because the facts make the subject of the article look like a Commie looks like a cheap political trick, not good editing.I can not assume good faith on this one.There is no  NPOV/POV issue here.There is only a revisionist liberal agenda going on here.
If you really feel that the NRA reference is POV, then reword the sentence so it doesn't look POV to you.But simply deleting my work will not cut it anymore.When I first came to wikipedia last winter, I said I wasn't going to engage in what I called 'retarded edit wars'. It looks as if I was mistaken.This is worth going to an edit war about.
How do I get in contact with the administration of wikipedia, so I can get them involved in this?
I will change the LVW to PETA, as it is more special intrest.
Other than that, have a nice daySaltforkgunman 18:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A blog is not a valid source.  If Wellstone said it on the Senate floor, find the transcript and quote him.  Appraiser 02:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Senator Wellstone actually used those words they would be in the Congressional Record.  Major libraries have it.  And if the NRA asserts that those words were used it should not be difficult for it to provide a citation.  The NRA-ILA source did not claim that Sen. Wellstone actually stated he was trying to "silence" the NRA; that appears to be a characterization of his position. If something is represented as a quote there should be a citation to the actual words, not to a characterization of them by an advocacy group.  And that applies regardless of the issue in question. Kablammo 04:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Silencing the NRA

message: I've seen claims like this one several places on the net:
"69% of Minnesotans blamed a "GOP conspiracy" for Wellstone’s death."
if this is an actual fact I would think it would be noteworthy if nothing only because of its historical value. I suspect local Minnesotean (?) papers would be the best source to verify such a claim. -- 213.172.204.59 23:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it exceedingly unlikely that 69% of minnesotans think Wellstone was murdered (as discovered by any reputable polling organization).  If that many people in Minnesota thought that as shown by on a sound poll and that is well sourced, then it may be noteable but if so it ought to be balanced with the fact that there was no evidence to this effect and was ruled out by the NTSB else it might add misleading credibility to a wild conspiracy hypothesis.  I really find it hard to believe though and will be surprised to see a legitamate source.  AbstractClass 02:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think whoever provided this fact should take it upon themselves to verify it if they want to add it to the page. Mathchem271828 04:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: He might have had good reason to. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The crash investigation should make it clear that the conspiracy theory is bunk. But a lot of people were suspicious, and it's only fair to address that rather than leaving it out and then having people asking, "What about this?" Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a user who objects to your comments regarding Tmoszman.  If you would consider striking them, it would be appreciated.  Although Tmoszman has not complained, some people might say that calling someone a Bush supporter was uncivil.  Atom (talk) 14:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The short paragraph about an alleged conspiracy doesn't even begin to say that it is true - only that some people have raised the possibility. That fact is definitely true, and is backed up by the fact that at least one book has been published on the topic. To omit the paragraph would be biased, IMO.--Appraiser (talk) 13:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

text: That's one theory. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I reverted your unilateral deletions because your deletions amount to censorship. The rumors were there. Feel free to search for a source that debunks those rumors (aside from the crash report, which pretty well debunks it anyway). Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Your citation to the main page is useless in this discussion. I have posted an entry on WP:ANI on this topic. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And also at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR due to your having violated the 3-revert rule now. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

text: You and your socks reverted SIX times. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The rumor of a cover up or assasination are rumors.  It was an incredibly sad loss and the rumors of a cover up only deserve mention in that they existed in the aftermath of his death. To have this in the article is insulting to the surviving family members. I voted for Paul Wellstone and still miss him in public life. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 02:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cover-Up Claims revisited (again) 

message: Per a complaint at the 3RR noticeboard, this page has been protected for three days. During that period please try to arrive at a consensus on Talk as to whether conspiracy theories ought to be mentioned here. There should be many parallel discussions in other political articles that might give a precedent. If your particular opinion is important enough to revert the article for, it should be worth your time to make  a case for it here. EdJohnston (talk) 15:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus is clear, it's one lone guy (under various red-links) that's opposing it. It's easy to tell from the narrow focus of his edits that he's pushing a Republican agenda. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected due to edit war 

message: Thank you. Some other examples of unproven theories in WP biographies include:
*John F. Kennedy#Assassination - Despite numerous inquiries and commissions' conclusions that L. Harvey Oswald acted alone, the fact that other theories exist is mentioned.
*Hale Boggs#Speculation, suspicions, and theories - several theories are suggested including motives related to Watergate, J. Edgar Hoover, and the Warren Commission.
--Appraiser (talk) 17:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples of other similar situations

message: Here are two newspaper reports from the period. The first was written during the NTSB inquiry, and *does* comment on the conspiracy theory. The second gives the NTSB's final report on the crash. I extracted a quote from each one.
====Minneapolis StarTribune====
:http://www.startribune.com/politics/11763071.html
:NTSB probe on Wellstone crash has strong focus on pilots, former investigator says
:By Tony Kennedy and Greg Gordon, Star Tribune
:22 February, 2003
:Minneapolis StarTribune
...
Meanwhile, in Washington, D.C., Rep. Jim Oberstar, D-Minn., says the NTSB's exhaustive investigative reports should dispel talk that the plane was sabotaged.
When Wellstone died just days before last fall's election, some liberals insisted it had to be part of a conservative plot to seize control of the narrowly divided Senate.
"I think the fund of information here should put aside the idea that there was a deliberate takedown of this aircraft," said Oberstar, the ranking Democrat on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
...
====USA Today====
:http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-11-18-wellstone_x.htm
:NTSB: Pilot error caused Wellstone crash
:USA Today 18 November, 2003
:by Alan Levin
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) blamed the accident  that killed Wellstone and seven others Oct. 25, 2002, on pilot error. It also found numerous problems at the charter company hired for the flight, Aviation Charter. The Federal Aviation Administration failed to sufficiently oversee the charter company, the board ruled.
...
EdJohnston (talk) 04:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not without citation, as that would be editorializing. However, you could cite one of the items above that debunks the sabotage hypothesis. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Two newspaper reports

message: :http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-11-18-wellstone_x.htm
:NTSB: Pilot error caused Wellstone crash
:USA Today 18 November, 2003
:by Alan Levin
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) blamed the accident  that killed Wellstone and seven others Oct. 25, 2002, on pilot error. It also found numerous problems at the charter company hired for the flight, Aviation Charter. The Federal Aviation Administration failed to sufficiently oversee the charter company, the board ruled.
...
EdJohnston (talk) 04:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not without citation, as that would be editorializing. However, you could cite one of the items above that debunks the sabotage hypothesis. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: USA Today

message: This looks like an ancient - and quite frankly hard to read - format to have Wellstone's electoral history in.  I've updated it so it's in the new format, and so it's simplified (only containing major party candidates).  However, since there is so much information in this section that isn't available anywhere else (there are no 1990 or 1996 Minnesota Senate pages on Wikipedia), I'm going to post all of the old data in the new format here. Brash (talk) 17:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Electoral History

message: I removed the following (which has already been re-added) because it is undue weight to a fringe theory.  I am not going to edit war over this but hope that others can see that this violate WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE.
::The timing and circumstances surrounding the crash, along with inconsistent statements made by public safety officials and crash investigators, led to speculation that a government conspiracy was behind the crash. University of Minnesota Duluth philosophy professor Jim Fetzer wrote several articles and a book alleging that the crash had been engineered by the Bush administration.
Thanks
:This has already been discussed at length. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight to fringe theory 

message: I have tagged :File:Wellstone_marker1_080713.JPG, which is in use in this article for deletion because it does not have a copyright tag. If a copyright tag is not added within seven days the image will be deleted. --Chris 01:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Wellstone_marker1_080713.JPG]] may be deleted 

message: All those comments were sourced the fact that several witnesses tell similar stories adds to their credibility. Most biographies especially of dead people depend in large part on the recollections of people who knew them. According to Conry's widow Cooney was her husband's closest friend, he said Conry told him he had difficulty flying King Airs. According to his co-pilots he almost never was at the controls of KingAirs during his employment with the charter company. 
As to your belief "There is no probability that TWO pilots would ignore loud flight speed warnings and loud stall warnings" There was and Eastern flight crash in 1972 in which neither pilot seems to have heard the altitude chime.
Also the NTSB performed simulations in which stall alarms did not give pilots enough warning.
Additionally the previous KingAir crash was also an Aviation Charter plane from the Twin Cities. The NTSB determined the stall alarm was turned off.The Wellstone plane was too badly burned to say either way.
As for the simulations it was not there objective to try to crash the planes but to test whether similarly experienced pilots should have been able to recover.
As to Conry flight hours he repeatedly exaggerated his flight experience LYING about it to his employer his colleagues and even his friends and even twice in court under oath! His was in court because he was tried civilly and criminally for FRAUD and was found guilty. He has duplicate logbooks with various discrepancies between them one had forged signatures. He claimed to have lost them but his wife "found" them after being served with a subpoena. The total hours in them were much less than the amount he claimed in a sworn affidavit he submitted to the FAA. 
In any case most of his flying hours were accrued before a 12 hiatus from flying due to his prison sentence and poor eyesight and he probably only flew a very small fraction of the hours he logged with the charter company
Sorry "anonymous" I have extensively researched the crash and debated it with Fetzer apparently all you done is read a few of his articles or perhaps his crappy book.
Lenbrazil (talk) 03:34, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to the above

message: http://cannabisnews.com/news/7/thread7851.shtml Notable because he developed multiple sclerosis. 
94.222.190.18 (talk) 06:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington Post: Wellstone Sprayed with Herbicide 

message: Didn't he have some doubt about the official 9/11 world trade center attack version or is that just a rumor? --41.150.201.159 (talk) 21:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  9/11 - world trade center 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added  tag to http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_4_39/ai_94596503
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110607032758/http://www.startribune.com/politics/11758266.html to http://www.startribune.com/politics/11758266.html
*Added  tag to http://www.upress.umn.edu/wellstoneactionbook/wellstoneaction.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070104060727/http://www.wellstone.org/network/index.aspx to http://www.wellstone.org/network/index.aspx
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120119054948/http://www.startribune.com/politics/16318346.html to http://www.startribune.com/politics/16318346.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081228001400/http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/B/blodgett_winning.html to http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/B/blodgett_winning.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Wellstone was not the only senator facing reelection in 2002 to vote against the Iraq Resolution. Jack Reed of Rhode Island, Dick Durbin of Illinois and Carl Levin of Michigan also voted against it (all three won reelection that year). Though sourced, this claim is incorrect. Edit needed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by LunaticLarry (talk • contribs) 13:17, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq War Vote 

message: During a press conference this morning regarding the Minnesota rioting, Melvin Carter III, the mayor of St Paul, quoted Senator Wellstone as saying, "We all do better when we all do better." This article doesn't mention a similar quote nor is there a Paul Wellstone page at WikiQuote. 
* I've found it attributed to him by Senator Al Franken in his book, Al Franken: Giant of the Senate, via the Andrew Tobias blog, Money and Other Subjects: "We All Do Better When We All Do Better" - https://andrewtobias.com/we-all-do-better-when-we-all-do-better/
* What appears to be a 2011 editorial column from the Minnesota Post website, "The progressive vision: We all do better when we all do better" - https://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2011/03/progressive-vision-we-all-do-better-when-we-all-do-better/
* BrainyQuote, which I find unreliable at times and which does not offer sources - https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/paul-wellstone-quotes_2
* The Des Moines Register called it "an old adage" in 2015 (laziness?) - https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/readers/2015/06/01/minimum-wage-good-challis/28277779/
* There are many more search engine results where it's been used without any citation, including in song lyrics.
If there's a source for Wellstone saying it directly, it may be a good adjunct to this article as a contribution to our culture. If he gives a citation for the quote (ie. "As so-and-so once said, 'We all do better when we all do better.'"), that would be good to know, too.
Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wellstone quoted.