Talk:Hungarian phonology

message: The vowel harmony section needs a lot of work.
The Venn diagram does not make any sense. The yellow circle is labeled as "Front Rounded", but it includes the unrounded vowels.
The discussion of suffixes should be separated from the discussion of vowel harmony in general, with discussion of <e> and <é> separate from handling of  and <í> when selecting suffixes. It is not uncommon for words ending with <e> or <é> to take neutral endings when mixed with back vowels (e.g. zsalugáter, fotel), but I think this generally does not occur with mixed-vowel words whose last vowel is  or <í>.
More care should be taken with the claim that front unrounded vowels cannot occur in the same words as back vowels. It's quite common for this to occur in compound words (e.g., önálló, számvevő, tűzoltó), this can occur more frequently than one might think because often a backvowel word combined with a neutral word takes front-rounded case endings: óév is an example, leading to óévről, óévtől, óévből, óévekről, etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.59.197.87 (talk) 22:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Vowel Harmony Section Needs Major Attention

message: Umm, some of the last changes by the 219... IP-address have not been correct. The phonetic value of cs and dzs are tS and dZ, not those s/he mentions. Those are not the standard versions, they are considered rather childish. I will correct them next time if there is no argument against it.
I agree. The voiced and voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative(ɕ) does not occur in Hungarian, at least what I remember. I would delete it now, but it is such a pain in the ass to go through that table to find the individual glyphs, you can do it or I will do it later. By the way, who are you? InFairness 08:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oy! Tell me! InFairness 22:04, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: Is there someone who could write about assimilation, intonation (esp questions v statements) and phonotactics (esp consonant clusters), please? Gailtb 06:47, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have elaborated section Assimilation, but I have bad English and no editoral practice in Wikipedia. You are welcome to correct my weaknesses. 160.114.8.193 (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New sections 

message: Open front unrounded vowel gives Hungarian bal as an example for IPA [a].  This seems wrong given the information on this page, which suggests that if the spelling is regular it should be [ɑ] or [ɒ], depending on which of those symbols is right.  Also, áll is given as an example for [ɑ] on Open back unrounded vowel.  Are these wrong, or are there some complications not described on this page?--JHJ 17:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In the IPA Handbook, <á> is described as a long open central vowel, , while <a> is described as a near-open, near-back, partially rounded vowel, . However, the symbols used in the Handbook are  and  (with  as an alternate). That is, they don't bother with the diacritics for a broad transcription. The question we want to ask is how precise we want to be. kwami 22:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  So the examples on the pages mentioned above were the wrong way round?  I've removed them.--JHJ 22:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The bal example was totally wrong, the áll example is not so bad, however, again, it can be hard to distinguish between open back and open central (or even open front) vowels. Traditional Hungarian phonology states /á/ to be back (because in vowel harmony it is back), but it is not worth too much. The Structural Grammar of Hungarian (Strukturális magyar nyelvtan, ed. F. Kiefer) analyses its articulation to be central, however its phonological behaviour to be back. --Sicboy 22:49, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sounds of ''a'' 

message: Are there any vowels which cannot occur at the end of a Hungarian word? --84.61.41.214 08:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  End of a word 

message: I completely agree with mëntëk "you all go" and mëntek "they went",
but can someone confirm that he/she pronounces "I save" as mentëk? I have never ever heard this before (I use mëntëk for "I save", mëntesz for "you save" etc.).
(I do not want to dispute the "mentek" that means "mentesek" because I do not use the "mentek" form. But I would probably read it as either mëntëk or mentëk because I use mëntës for the singular of "mentesek" but I heard some people say mentës.)
It is unfortunate that many people say that they can not hear the difference between e and ë, even though they use the two sounds correctly. So I may not get too many replies for my question, but please, if you do hear the difference, tell us: Which pronunciation do you use? -- BarroColorado 18:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I grew up in Budapest and I use /ɛ/ only, so I can only rely upon MorphoLogic's Helyësen software, which does indeed list ment for 'he saves'. I hope that helps somewhat. By the way, I am the exact opposite of what you described above: I can pronounce and distinguish between the two sounds just fine, but I am not able to use them correctly in everyday speech. KovacsUr 21:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different meanings and pronunciations of "mentek" 

message: I always perceived 'a' as unrounded, so Wikipedia confused me a little (and for a moment let's forget the 12 years of grammar lessons and the official spelling guide, also describing it as rounded :P). It is really rounded, but with exolabial (protruded) rounding (see roundedness). As for ö, I think it's closer to œ. BTW, I've searched for a vowel chart, but apart from the Wikipedia one, I found only this one: http://www.yudit.org/ipa/hun_vowel_IPA.jpg Frigo 12:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vowels again 

message: I've added ŋ to the table, since that phoneme is pronounced when /n/ is followed by /k/ or /g/, like in "hang" which is [hɔŋg] ('sound, voice') or "sonka" [ʃoŋkɔ] ('ham'). I added some other missing consonants as well. I also changed the "ddzs" example at the geminated graphemes, since there is no such letter. Dzs is pronounced long in itself and it is in no case geminated. -- Tarcsay Zoltán (talk) 23:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see our article on phoneme.  While the labiodental and velar nasals appear in Hungarian, their distribution is allophonic (i.e. no minimal pairs). — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 00:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then please delete those phonemes from the table which are also allophonic! Tarcsay Zoltán (talk) 13:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately, this is one of those sounds that isn't closest to any cardinal point. I haven't seen a lot of literature on Hungarian phonology, but the source that the article's vowel chart is based on uses <>...or maybe it uses <.  Either way, the character for the open back vowel was chosen rather than the near-open back vowel.  We should honor the symbols that scholarship commonly uses.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 17:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixes 

message: I'm not going to add a citation in Wikipedia just now (only have a moment, and it will take me longer since I'll need to learn how to do it), but I thought I'd point out that the devoicing of <j> in imperatives is like 'kapj' [kɒpç] is available in a book: Unkarin kielioppi, by Márta Csepregi.  I'm not sure what her reference is, but I'm assuming that she may know what she's talking about by her name.  The example in this book was written in semi-orthography/semi-FUT on page 27.  Either someone else can add this, or I can later when I've got a little more time. :)  Pyry (talk) 15:19, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imperative palatal devoicing citation 

message: The vowel í can be high or low, like víz-vizek or híd-hidak.
:As is covered under the section on vowel harmony. The usual terms in English are though front (for the vizek type) and back (for hidak); high vowel and low vowel mean something else entirely. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 12:41, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  í can be high or low