Talk:Rosalind Franklin/Archive 2

message: Fact and Reference Check Numbered in-text citations and a corresponding a list of references were recently added to the Francis Crick article (this format). I suggest that the same be done for this article. I am trying to start with a citation for this statement: "Crick has said Franklin would have made the discovery within three months". First of all, this statement is ambiguous; what "discovery"? In Crick's book "What Mad Pursuit" he estimated that if he and Watson had not worked on the structure of DNA it may have been 2-3 YEARS before a good model of the structure was published. Also, what is the source of "Watson has stated that Franklin should have discovered the structure of DNA as much as two years before he and Crick did"? --JWSchmidt 18:09, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the information here comes from Brenda Maddox Book, which is listed in the Bibliography section. I did an extensive re-write of the article about five months ago, just after reading the book. Because of this I have not referenced every little factoid to the book but used this format. Of course there was some material in the article which has remained. Both of the quotes you have mentioned were added before of after my re-write, but not by me. I tend to be of the opinion that both of these statements are not really necessary to the article anyway, they are Crick and Watsons opinions and could be viewed as attempts at justification for their behaviour anyway (see Maddox's book). Whichever way you look at it there is no reason to believe that any of the statements are necesarily accurate predictions of when a model would otherwise have been produced. Both Crick and Watson appear to have made contradictory statements about RF's role in the discovery of DNA (see Maddox's book), so it could well be that Crick has made both statements at different times of his career, no one can be expected to be consistent through the entirity of their life!!!! As to citing the quotes you mention, I agree, they do need attribution, or to be removed, I'm for removal.Alun 05:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

text: *And here Crick has generously ventured that she was three months away, but it is doubtful that Rosalind realized it, given her decision to leave the investigation of DNA to take up the crystallographic study of viruses.Alun 17:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

text: *Here's a direct Watson quote I found in A Conversation with Jim Watson. Engineering & Science No.2 (2003), on the last page of the article, it's in pdf format. Franklin ..made some wrong choices. She should have solved the structure early in 1952 . Cheers Alun 17:58, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  references drive 

message: The question about base pairing was answered by Jerry Donohue:
Jerry Donohue wrote in 1976 Let's face it if the fates hadn't ordained that I share an office with Watson and Crick in 1952-53 they'd still be puttering around trying to pair like-with-like enol forms of the bases.Alun 05:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Base pairing

message: I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO HAS PUT THE AWFUL FRAME AROUND THE PORTRAIT OF ROSALIND FRANKLIN AND 'MULTI-COLOURED' REFERENCES TO FIVE OTHER SCIENTISTS - I THINK IT LOOKS TERRIBLE! I SUGGEST IT BE REMOVED?Nitramrekcap 10:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Another option that has been suggested is to create a new wikipedia page just for the "Discovery of the DNA Double Helix". As things stand currently, the story is distributed over the various articles for the discoverers themsleves. I thought it was useful to provide a way of linking together the various fragments of the story. There are other ways this could be done such as a more subtle navigation box at the bottom of the articles. I'm sorry about the colors. I was playing around with a way to use color to suggest the complementation of base pairs. --JWSchmidt 15:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Welcome Nitramrekcap. You can do this Alec Stokes and Herbert Wilson using square brackets  Alun 06:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It doesn't intend to achieve anything except to inform and be as accurate as possible. The beauty of these talk pages is that everyone can thrash out their position and, hopefully, consensus can be reached as to what is included or excluded in any given article. The purpose is to be as accurate as possible and present a neutral point of view (this is official wikipedia policy so it's worth reading). I read in Guardian Unlimited recently that wikipedia has become the most detailed encyclopedia in history, so it must be doing something right. So there's no hidden agenda, people devote their own time to wiki for all sorts of reasons, and it's just getting better and better. The best articles tend to come from the most heated debates, STV for example is today's featured article and six months or so ago there was some very heated debate going on. It's good to challenge and be challeged, it is official policy that this be done in the most civilised way. I hope Wikipedia gives you as much pleasure and challenges you as much as it has me. Alun 17:27, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discovery of the DNA Double Helix

message: Alun, please don't get me wrong I am impressed with Wikipedia, but the heated debate over Rosalind Franklin's contribution to the determination of the structure of DNA and whether she was 'entitled' to a share of the 1962 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine flies in the face of the evidence. The debate will not achieve anything!
You cannot judge the attitudes towards female scientists in the 1950's by the modern day standards; the whole world has moved on a lot in 50 odd years. Yesterday I was in Cambridge (England) and saw a lot of 'girl' students, in 1953 Cambridge University was a predominently male institution of course. Even if Bragg had wanted to nominate her, Wilkins' share was for King's College London as team - of which she had briefly a part for their work pre/post 1953. 
As far as Wikipedia is concerned, it can never, ever (unless the information technology improves) replace printed text, and the arguments for/against the participants in the DNA saga seem to be based more on emotion than fact. Robert Olby refers to "this work (her work on the tobacco mosaic virus), marking the end of Franklin's short career, has proved of fundamental importance not only in virology but also in the study of molecular structures in living cells... Had she lived, some of the myths about Franklin would surely have lost their lustre in the face of such achievements." Enough said? I rest my case: REF = R.I.P. 195.92.168.176 23:12, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: These words still do not appear in the article. You seem to be refering to the talk page. Talk pages don't have to be NPOV, articles do.Alun 13:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RF and recognition

message: DNA structure research at King's College London 1947-1959
    Maurice Wilkins | Rosalind Franklin | Raymond Gosling | Alec Stokes | Herbert Wilson
CONGRATULATIONS TO WHOEVER ADDED THE KCL LOGO AND LINKED FIVE OF THE "KING'S COLLEGE LONDON" SIX TOGETHER! BUT WHERE IS SIR JOHN (TURTON) RANDALL - THE LEADING LIGHT OF KING'S DNA RESEARCH? ALSO AT THE RISK OF BEING PEDANTIC, LET'S HAVE THEM IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER?
Nitramrekcap 15:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: DNA structure research at King's College London 1947-1959

message: I am increasingly in favour of a Discovery of DNA article. Otherwise there will be considerable overlap between the various biographical articles. There is much material on this subject, and, whatever JWSchmidt thinks, it cannot all be included in RF's biographical article, there are a plethora of books out there, both biographical, historical and scientific, how can all that material be included here? It is in the nature of encyclopedic articles that they are introductory and by necessity relatively brief, this means that sweeping, speculative theories, and attempts to second guess the meaning of decades old statements must be discarded in favour of short factual information. There are numerous sources out there for people who want to get their teeth into the nitty gritty of history. Another advantage of a discovery of DNA article is that it need not limit itself to the discovery of the structure. The role of DNA as the molecule of inheritance had only just been established by the early 1950's. I think that this sort of article would fit nicely into a sort of discovery of DNA series. What does everyone else think? 
By the way the box around Franklin's picture is a nice idea, doesn't really work though, maybe it just needs to lose the colours?Alun 06:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a very good idea. Start early on with Friedrich Miescher and build up from there, including people like Oswald Avery and so on. I think this could lead to a good story like article, culminating sometime in the 60's with the elucidation of the genetic code and the lac operon. Many of these people and subjects have their own pages, so there needn't be any biographical detail or even too much science. I think this is the sort of thing you could really get your teeth into JWSchmidt.Alun 16:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ps Someone's thinking of doing a rewrite of the  lac operon article, so if anyone fancies contributing then go ahead.Alun 17:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A suggestion

message: Can we keep to correct wiki style, see here. Some internal wikipedia links were in the External links section. I moved them to a See also section. Alun 07:54, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki style

message: The Times October 01, 2005 
DNA sculpture explodes'''
 
 
 
A 10ft sculpture commemorating the discovery of DNA blew up as it was being installed at Clare College, Cambridge University, yesterday. 
The explosion happened as workmen carried out final work to the double helix, which was due to be unveiled to the public. Nobody was hurt. 
 
 
The blast was caused after gas, thought to have formed from the concrete base, gathered inside the tubular aluminium structure and was ignited by a CO2 welder.
195.92.168.165 21:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! (A LITTLE BIT OF HUMOUR)

message: I think it looks daft to have all these references to specific pages. If no one objects, I think I will remove them. I will concentrate on finding references for the King's section of the article (but will reference them to specific pages), which seems to be the most contensious area. If there are two reference sources that contradict each other, then I think the statement that is disputed should be removed for discussion. What's the general opinion?.Alun 05:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: References Section

message: Alun, have you read all of the literature? Best wishes, 195.92.168.169 06:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you understand that this is a Rosalind Franklin article and not a DNA article? You are showing a very POV attitude, and seem to fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of this article. I fail to see what information regarding Rosalind Franklin's life would appear in the literature you are refering to. If there are inaccuracies in the article then can you please point them out? If there are no innacuracies in the article, can you please explain what the problem is? You seem to be making claims without providing any supporting evidence and have come close to calling me a liar. None of these books appear to be Rosalind Franklin biographies. I have no problem with you adding provisos to the article, for example that there is some debate over the importance of RF's data that were used by C+W  (but i maintain that, in using it it should have been cited). You have made no coment about any factual inacuracies in the article, even though I have repeatedly asked you to provide such evidence. Given this fact I cannot, in all honesty, see what you are complaining about. I fail to understand how reading, Wilkin's autobiograph will make you an authority on Rosalind Franklin's life! You have, as far as I can see, made no suggestion about improving the content of this article, what you have added was repeated elswhere in the article, and offered no additiona information. This is not a competition about who has read the most books by (or about) people involved in DNA research, this is a talk page for the RF article. This is not the place to peddle your (or others) interpretation of events (and whatever you may think Wilkins's, Watson's and Crick's books will inevitably be less balanced than those of impartial biographers), it is a place to discuss the content of the article, but you have made no specific comment at all regarding the content of the article. You seem to be far more interested in arguing with me over my point of view, which I tend to think is somewhat irrelevant to the article itself. Can we at least agree to stick to the subject at hand and only make specific reference to the article? I do not think that this is an unreasonable request.Alun 09:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree, there is no point in continuing this, it is not a dialogue, more a display of petulence by someone who doesn't seem to understand the difference between debate and confrontation or between opinion and fact.Alun 16:34, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

text: *No I would prefer Dr. Franklin. Please try to be accurate, you are displaying your bias once again.Alun 06:14, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Stick to the point

message: I have removed the reference to the Nobel Prize from the intro. I do not understand why it is there.Alun 05:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Martin, I think we have got off to a bad start ourselves. I must addmit to having been over zealous in my posting, I am sorry for that, and for the over confrontational nature of my posts. It would be much better to try be consensual. I have been thinking a lot about what you have been saying, and you have whetted my appetite to read about more of the characters involved in the story surrounding DNA, so thank you for that. There may be much to be gained by finding out about these people, though their participation in the life of Rosalind Franklin is a mere 2 years out of a research career stretching over 15 or so years. I still think it's worth remembering that most of the life and career of this remarkable person was spent doing other things. Personally I think the article should reflect that, this is just my opinion, I am not trying to pick a fight. As for the article, I did spend some time on it about six months or so ago, though much of the work in it is not mine. On reflection I think that the King's section could do with a complete rewrite, possibly shortening, to reflect the time she spent there, possibly mentioning the other reasons she was unhappy there (I believe there were some class issues and such like as well as her dislike of Wilkins), mentioning the work she did there, what she achieved etc, and finally mentioning the controversy surrounding how important her work may have actually been in the elucidation of the structure, these are just some thoughts, nothing else. I agree that the Crick article is much better, but I suspect it has had a lot more input from a lot more people than this one. There may be much wrong with this article, but I don't think there are any actual inaccuracies in it, though it may give a biased slant, something I was possibly blind to. I would like to point out (again I do not want to have an argument about this, but I think I am right on this point) that the Cavendish was not being funded by the MRC to work on the structure of DNA (something you put in the article), of course it is also true that King's had all the information required to get the structure, and that ultimately they failed. Maybe you would like to have a go at rewriting the King's section? I'm going to have a break from this article and maybe come back and have a look at it in a few months, I might write a section about her work at Birkbeck and a short one on her illness to round the article off at that point, if someone has not done it already by then.Alun 16:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro