Talk:United States military aid to Israel

message: There was also a deletion review, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26, related to this incident report: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#User:Jayjg and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. --Timeshifter 00:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: . See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. The original closing admin (Doc) wrote: "The result was KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages." Another admin deleted that closing improperly, and changed the closing admin comment to "The result was Delete - with a strong suggestion to merge." See: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#User:Jayjg and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. During the DRV, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26, the original closing admin (Doc) clarified his closing comment and changed it to, "The result was No Consensus = default KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages". The DRV closing admin wrote: "After examining the comments carefully (and ignoring the boldfaces here, which were often confused), there is a ~75% consensus in support of Doc's original closure. Relisting is at editorial option; merge discussions belong on the appropriate talk pages." --Timeshifter 07:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Article for deletion" (AFD) report

message: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#United States military aid to Israel. Here is the initial report:
Some editors are trying to delete the weapon systems list from this article. It is the main part of this article. Here is the last revision of the intact article:
*http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_military_aid_to_Israel&oldid=127900153
This article already survived a recent AFD, a recent incident report, and a recent DRV. 
. See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. The original closing admin (Doc) wrote: "The result was KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages." Another admin deleted that closing improperly, and changed the closing admin comment to "The result was Delete - with a strong suggestion to merge." See: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#User:Jayjg and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United States military aid to Israel. During the DRV, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 26, the original closing admin (Doc) clarified his closing comment and changed it to, "The result was No Consensus = default KEEP - merging is of course an editorial decision to be worked out on the talk pages". The DRV closing admin wrote: "After examining the comments carefully (and ignoring the boldfaces here, which were often confused), there is a ~75% consensus in support of Doc's original closure. Relisting is at editorial option; merge discussions belong on the appropriate talk pages." There are overall articles called United States military aid and Israel-United States military relations. The list of U.S.-supplied weapons systems in the article in question here, United States military aid to Israel, is already too long to merge with those 2 articles. It is also too long to merge with Israel-United States relations#United States military and economic aid. WP:NPOV help is needed to maintain and to fill out this spinout article more. --Timeshifter 08:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A [[WP:ANI]] incident report has been filed

message: Here is the diff for the change.
Below is one example of a condensed format of the list. An example is found at this revision:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_military_aid_to_Israel&oldid=127920677 --Timeshifter 10:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changed to more condensed form of list

message: ----
Open to other ideas, too. --Timeshifter 10:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the list from here: this is a talk page. You were asked earlier not to crosspost long paragraphs of the same text to many places. Repeating OR doesn't make it less OR and the Delrev does not endorse your OR either. BTW, I have asked you about the number 362. Where is it from? ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I returned the suggested changes. Editing other editor's comments on talk pages is against WP:TALK. We are discussing changes to the article. It is common to post suggested changes to talk pages. If this talk page deletion continues I will post another report to WP:ANI or WP:AN. --Timeshifter 10:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I missed the fact that USer:Humus Sapiens deleted the section you added almost immediately. My edits afterward were not an endorsement of this move, but I am unsure how to return the material now. Could you restore the list you would like to see included to the talk page again (I notice he just deleted above). It would be helpful so that others can reinsert it when it is summarily deleted without rhyme or reason so that you don't end up violating 3RR fighting this kind of editing (the deletion of sourced, reliable and relevant information) which really constitutes vandalism. Tiamut 11:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Would someone please care to quote the lines in the included references that say that that list of weapons is military aid? What I see is an appendix listing many of the weapons included (some of them aren't even mentioned there, like the small arms) title "U.S.-SUPPLIED WEAPONRY" - ie, some probably were aid, some were purchased, with no distinction. The WPI report says "The bulk of Israel’s current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. military aid programs" - ie some is not, in addition to not specifically mentioning what was and what wasn't. Under "Recent U.S. Military Sales to Israel", the CRS report says "Israel uses almost 75% of its FMF [Foreign Military Financing (direct military aid)] funds to purchase U.S. defense equipment." - that has no relevance at all, since in addition to not tying the money to any specific products, it doesn't even say what part of the purchase is is FMF. TewfikTalk 22:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You just answered your own question. The list makes no claim to be a list of strictly 100% military-aid-paid-for weapon systems. --Timeshifter 00:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It makes no claim of any aid for any part of it. While it is likely that parts of it have aid involved, drawing that connection without explicit sourcing is OR. TewfikTalk 01:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Should we merge this into the recently created Israel-United States military relations? —Ashley Y 02:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That discussion is already being held here. TewfikTalk 02:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's the wrong place for it, isn't it? This is the article that would be turned into a redirect if they were merged. —Ashley Y 02:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that it is appropriate to merge it now, it was a fairly weak article when it was standing alone.  I knew the basic details outlined in this version, but I learned a bunch of stuff I didn't know by reading through Israel-United States military relations (an article that I expect to be expanded significantly as we don't yet have a proper time-line of the unfolding of events.)  --70.48.68.155 04:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that it's only been a few days since its AfD/DRV and associated drama, we should probably give it awhile to see if anyone objects -- in particular, people who voted "keep". —Ashley Y 08:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm against a merger for now, particularly when those supporting it are the ones gutting the article. Tiamut 09:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: To clarify: I would be for a merger if it retains all sourced and relevant material from this article not currently included in the other. Tiamut 13:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now moved across the sourced and relevant content into Israel-United States military relations. If people are happy with the merger, I'll go ahead and turn this article into a redirect. -- ChrisO 18:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems ok to me. -- Kendrick7talk 18:38, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like the main stuff has been merged. Any other remaining relevant sourced info can be found in the revision history here and in the talk page here. So as long as those are kept after the redirect, it is OK by me to redirect. --Timeshifter 14:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: Isarig, I don't know what source you were originally concerned about regarding the Merkava/Lavi - US funding link, but it is establish fact and there are many of reliable references to back it up.  Here is a sentence snipped from the Israeli-based MERIA journal:
:"The United States also agreed to fund indigenous development of weapons by Israel, including the Merkava tank and the Lavi combat aircraft. Before the project was canceled in 1987, the Americans provided $2 billion towards the Lavi program."
Here is part of a State Department report on the matter:
:"In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled), $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects."
--64.230.121.213 18:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: US funding of Merkava development sources