Talk:İzmir/Archive 2

message: Hi there. I'm a neutral observer from the US interested in history. I was reading this article and was confused by some parts, can someone clarify them?
* "During the Iron Age the houses were huge, small, one roomed buildings. " were they huge or small?
* "In the meantime, a class of middlemen, composed seldom of Jews, who had settled in large numbers in the city following their eviction from Spain after 1492 and welcomed with generosity by the Ottoman, particularly of Greeks and, some time later and to a lesser extent, by Armenians, started to take hold." I assume this is supposed to say that "A middle class, composed largely of Jews, ..." Right? 
* "A man named Baseleus was most probably in charge of the city." When? According to whom? Was he the first ruler? Why is he mentioned and other rulers aren't?
* "Greek settlement is attested by the presence of pottery dating from about 1000 BC." does this mean Greeks moved to the city in about 1000 BC? If so, what happened the to previous residents?
* "Combined with written evidence, Smyrna and Chios lay the strongest arguments in Homer's claim." According to whom? 
* "The oldest model of a many-roomed-type house of this period was found in ancient Smyrna. Known to be the oldest house having so many rooms under its roof, this house was built in the second half of 7th century BC"  The oldest type where? In the world? In the Mediterranean? In Ionia?
* "The city plan in the Bayraklı Mound is the earliest example of this type in the western sphere." Western Sphere of what? 
--Awiseman 05:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone? --Awiseman 00:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: How about the other questions? Anybody? --Awiseman 18:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification 

message: Once there is a link to another article, like Persian Empire, later mentions don't have to be linked - if they are, it makes it hard to read. Thanks --Awiseman 05:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate links 

message: really? seems odd. --Awiseman 18:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? Your nick's ironic, because you're not. DISS! MonsterOfTheLake 05:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Monster, stop attacking other editors just cause u have nothing better to do... U think u are wiser? prove it! Gosh! --Hectorian 10:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Monster, it's my actual name. If you have information about the Forbes family, please share it. --Awiseman 14:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Forbes Family are from Izmir? 

message: Cretanforever, you're saying "according to Serge Trifkovic" for one POV but presenting the other POV ("Greek soldiers, largely aided by henchmen among local Greeks and Armenians, committed atrocities") as an absolute fact. If you want to include the information it shold be phrased like "according to the Turkish government...", as your source does appear to be a government website. See what I'm saying? —Khoikhoi 02:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me, thanks for your cooperation Cretanforever. :) —Khoikhoi 03:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, why was the footnote in the next paragraph ("The fire started in the largely Armenian Basmane quarter...") deleted? —Khoikhoi 03:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I see what you mean. Thanks again. —Khoikhoi 03:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: During the incursion of the Greek occupation forces, Greek soldiers, largely aided by henchmen among local Greeks and Armenians, committed atrocities against, not only toward the Turkish population, but also to all communities that had been living peacefully in the region for centuries. These atrocities included massacre, pillage, rape and the destruction of towns and villages, as detailed, at an international level, for the period covering May-September 1919, in the Report of the Inter-Allied Commission of Inquiry [2] and further down The Turkish army re-took possession of İzmir, The Turkish side was accused of a number of atrocities against the Greek and Armenian communities, In addition, according to Serge Trifkovic (only one source). Doesn't all these express the turkish POV only? Greeks who massacred, pillaged, raped, destroyed... and Turks who are just accused of a number of atrocities (and only Chrysostomos' case uses the actual word...). so, Cretanforever, would u mind to add George Horton as well? --Hectorian 03:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This source can be added, if Horton can also be (have in mind that Horton was an eyewitness, and his book on the issue can be found in non greek sources). --Hectorian 04:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't you think this issue is getting too big and controversial (sp?) to discuss in an article about the modern city of Izmir? These issues should be carried to another article.--Kagan the Barbarian 05:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See my comment above: the whole sentence is clearly POVish and the source is clearly biased (would anyone expect to find something different in the turkish government's website?). in addition, u removed cited info! would it be ok to add what Horton says as well? he was an eyewitness afterall! a biased source will bring another one, if u insist reverting... --Hectorian 06:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the fire should be mentioned here with 2 or 3 sentences and direct to Great Fire of Smyrna. That way the edit warring here will be resolved.--Kagan the Barbarian 06:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 2-3 NPOV sentences or 2-3 sentences mentioning both POV will be right. but if the turkish government's site will be kept as a footnote, i will add Horton! and i know that Turks don't like him at all... but he is 'neutral' enough (with the current definition or 'neutrality' in this article, shaped recently by reverts and edits...) --Hectorian 06:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I know. That's why we need 2-3 sentences to sum it up as you said and carry all the heated discussion to Great Fire of Smyrna. This article had enough damage already, as an Izmir resident, born and raised here, I would like this article to focus more on the city. I can provide photos, writings etc.--Kagan the Barbarian 18:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I respect but disagree with the move to include the other appelation of Izmir - or of any other town - in the opening line. Any other names of a city must appear a few lines further down in the historical synopsis - and only if it is historically significant. The main reason is that this is the norm, but it also avoids controversies. Politis 09:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See the upper conversation - according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), definitely Greek and probably Armenian are relevant foreign names. I think it's fine the way it is now- it's short and gives information. Look at other cities like Delhi or Jerusalem for example, that lists 3 languages! Troy and Tashkent also list a lot. --Awiseman 14:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Who cares what happens there, it doesn't apply to this page. But if the Turkish name ought to be be there, show them this: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). --Awiseman 18:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a discussion about the whole issue in Wikipedia:Greek/Turkish naming conventions. Input by all will be appreciated. --Hectorian 18:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: What do you mean it doesn't apply to this page?! Are you high?--Kagan the Barbarian 18:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are u referring to me, Kagan? --Hectorian 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To the American.--Kagan the Barbarian 19:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What happens on that page has no bearing on this page - it's not a quid pro quo or a Greek vs Turkey issue, though you seem to be making one. If the Turkish name for Chios deserves to be that and someone removes it, I'll back you up based on the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) --Awiseman 19:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not in the opening line, Smyrna

message: Coming off of Kağan's suggestion, I think a lot of this article should be split off into a new page called History of İzmir—with a shorter version of the history here. That way more information about the modern city can be added without this article getting too long. Any thoughts? —Khoikhoi 02:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  An idea 

message: Izmirnians. Are you sure this word exists? I thought it was Smirniots. However, the suffix 'ians' seems reasonable (Parisians, Athenians, Bostanians, Skopjians etc); but the people from Madrid we use the Spanish expression, Madrileros.  What is the Turkish word? But remember that many cities do not have a special inflection for their inhabitants (Los Angeles, Beijing, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Drama, Belgrade, etc). Also, how do you call people from Istanbul? Istanbuliots? I have a feeling that there are no established terms for those Turkish cities. Politis 11:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In English, both Smyrniot (47 uses in Google books) and Smyrnian (39) are used, but for periods before the Republic of Turkey (from ancient to Ottoman).  I don't think there is any standard English term today; the Turkish term is presumably İzmirli (regular -li ending).  People from Los Angeles are Angelenos.  In modern Turkish, people from İstanbul are presumably İstanbullu (same regular -li ending, with regular phonetic change from vowel harmony); in English, pre-Republic, they were Stamboulis or Constantinopolitans, I believe. --Macrakis 14:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Izmirians - Suffix 'ians'

message: The page claims that "Aristotle recounts..." the birth of Homer, but I can find no such section in any of Aristotle's works. There is a description of Homer's lineage in "The Contest of Homer and Hesiod," but this is not attributed to Aristotle, nor does the posted description follow what is mentioned in "The Contest." Could the originator of this section please either a) provide a citation for the source of the posted Homeric lineage or b) delete the claim? Thanks. Homeridia 14:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homer 

message: That two thrids of the population of Smyrna before the great fire and subsequent events were Greek? Reaper7 20:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source? --AW 20:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it mentioned? 

message: This has come up again, with most people against Shuppiluliuma. Thoughts? --AW 15:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NOFEEDING is generally a good guideline.--Tekleni 15:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  City name edit war 

message: Can somebody fix it? The infobox on the city with map and such. --AW 16:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template not working 

message: Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 04:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: It doesn't write the the Turkish names of Athens, Yerevan or Thessaloniki in Wikipedia, but why in İzmir page it writes? This makes hard to believe Wikipedia's objectivity. I hope you'll add the Japenese name of the city too! /Qghvz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.227.82.192 (talk) 01:48, May 1, 2007
:The subject has been discussed ad nauseum. Unless you want a headache, don't complain. ALTON .ıl 05:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: For that looong list of alternate names in different languages, I suggest a solution like at Thessaloniki that I also took the liberty of applying to Istanbul. Baristarim 11:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds reasonable to me.  I'd also suggest that we follow the example of Istanbul by using the English name Izmir in most cases, rather than the Turkish name İzmir (which should still be mentioned, of course). --Delirium 02:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a feeling that proposal would be contested, because Izmir is not as well-known as Istanbul, in my experience. ALTON .ıl 05:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names 

message: It was mentioned, defined by a couple of paragraphs showing how the trade boom along with the large presence of Greeks and Armenians changed the character of the city itself. The whole idea is not to define a population in numerical terms, but to show how Izmir evolved. To quantify the population along those lines would be unnecessary and would just spark controversy for the sake of it. Monsieurdl 16:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defining population 

message: So what has that got to do with a sudden trade boom? I am sorry, can someone at least an attempt at my first question? Reaper7 14:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  There have always been Greeks there 

message: 1. Your question is Greeks or Turks, and the answer is BOTH.
2. Every influence in Izmir has been mentioned in the article.
3. After the 15th century, Izmir was a very multicultural city, and MANY different religions were represented. This is also mentioned in the article.
It is very simple to me- a general, accurate history of Izmir is a lot more important than validating an agenda, plain and simple. Monsieurdl 23:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  You are missing the point 

message: 1. The question is not Greeks or Turks, reread. It is who had the higher population before 1922.
2. It is not a subject to be hidden in cultural garbage section of the article, we are talking facts and figures. If a city in the UK was almost half or over half spanish before 1922 and now there are none, trust me, there would be a section on it, especially if the city is as old and important as Izmir.
3. Again, what are you talking about? Izmir was multi cultural before the 15 century. Please reread and try not to start and  answer a new topic to reply. Thankyou. Reaper7 11:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use a translator if your English is so bad 

message: Why is this article under the Turkish name (İzmir) as opposed to the English name, Izmir? Quote from WP:NCGN:
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.
As far as I can tell the widely accepted English name does not contain a dotted capital I (İ) considering it doesn't exist in English. Explanation anyone? You don't find Munich under München. - EstoyAquí(t • c • e) 18:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out similar examples like São Paulo, León, Cádiz, Córdoba, Málaga, etc. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 20:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Of those, at least half should be changed. The English is Cordova. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Turkish name? 

message: It is written:"Historically, as a result of the influx of Greek refugees from İzmir (as well as from other parts of Asia Minor and Istanbul) to mainland Greece after 1922, the cuisine of İzmir has had an enormous impact on Greek cuisine, exporting many sophisticated spices and foods."
so the greek cuisine in smyrna is different than greek cuisine??
i think it shoulbe written like this: " ....the cuisine of Greeks of İzmir has had an enormous impact on the rest of Greek cuisine, exporting many sophisticated spices and foods."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That suggests that the Greeks of Smyrna cooked differently from their Turkish, Armenian, Jewish...etc. neighbors. Excluding dietary laws, is there any reason to believe this true? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  cuisine 

message: Greeks or Turks? If it is Greeks, don't you think it should be at least mentioned? If it is Turks, how many more were there? If there were more Armenians and Greeks before 1922 living in the city, surely it was therefore mainly a christian city up until 1922? Reaper7 18:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who had the higher populations of Izmir before 1922? 

message: I know this is kinda irrelevant, but that article is plain BEAUTIFUL!!
Congratulations on all editors that worked hard to make it happen!
--Eae1983 (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not irrelevant:you can nominate this article for "Good articles" or "Featured Articles" AverageTurkishJoe (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good but how? I am a really ignorant person when it comes to computer stuff :)) --Eae1983 (talk) 06:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Beauty

message: I removed the argumentative material Mhockey added to the Names and Etymology section, which consisted a statement that Izmir is the primary way of writing the city's name in English and a list of sources that have the city so spelled.  This is original research, which, while accepted as necessary and part of the guidelines for deciding how to title a page, is not appropriate for the article itself.  If the material I removed were to stay in, then editors who disagree with Mhockey will be just as justified in offering their countervailing points in the article, distracting readers with what should be a "backstage" controversy.  --Atemperman (talk) 01:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, it was not meant to be argumentative, I thought it was stating verified facts which were established in the debate.  Maybe I misunderstood the arguments put forward in the debate, but I thought we had established that common usage in English is Izmir, but some editors thought that we should use İzmir in English (assuming availability of the appropriate typesetting equipment).  I would have no problem if "countervailing points" were included in the article (in fact I included one myself), as long as they can be verified.  Plenty of evidence was provided by User:Erudy (not by me) that authoritative texts in English use Izmir.  In what sense is that original research?  It is citing references, which is what we should always do in WP articles. Mhockey (talk) 20:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Agreed.  WP should deal with verifiable facts, and we must observe WP:NPOV.  I have restored the deleted citations.Mhockey (talk) 10:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article itself is not the place for continuing an argument related to the move request 

message: Ok, can someone fix a decent one, please? If the picture is well sourced like the one in Ankara -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ankara_kolajı.jpg there should be no problem at all. I really think İzmir needs it. Cheers!
--88.254.241.230 (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Thumb Picture and Montage

message: First, the population listed in the infobox and the population listed at the beginning of the page don't match despite both giving 2008 as the year of the estimate.  The infobox gives a population of 3,210,465 while the page gives a population of 3,795,978.
As for the districts that make up the city, the beginning paragraph first states that it includes eleven districts, but the sentences after says only nine, and only then at the end does it mention that only nine districts make up the central city.  This needs to be made much more clear, and I think I'll do that. --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Population and Area

message: I propose  changing the disambiguation solution currently used for Smyrna. Currently, Smyrna is an article of its own but deals only with the ancient city, with disambiguation notices only in the article heads. But people keep using links to Smyrna in articles mentioning the modern city (under a Greek perspective), especially in pre-1923 contexts. These links should all end up here at Izmir, because that's the article that has the information relevant to those contexts. If you look at Special:Whatlinkshere/Smyrna, most of the incoming links are more relevant to modern Izmir than to the ancient city.
Therefore: Move Smyrna to Smyrna (ancient city), redirect Smyrna to İzmir, include dab notices:
*at the head of İzmir: Smyrna redirects here. For the ancient city, see Smyrna (ancient city), for other uses see Smyrna (disambiguation)
*at the head of Smyrna (ancient city): For the modern city, see İzmir
Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I ended up here by accident but can't help but also ask about the redirect of Izmir to the turkish name with the "İ". Did you mess something up while working out the Smyrna disambiguation? You quoted the English Izmir at first and then the Turkish İzmir. Shouldn't the articles be in the english language and use/quote the local writing inside the article? And to anyone answering please read carefully what I ask. I am not talking about the modern name of the island city. I am asking why the name of the article is in the Turkish language when this is the English page.Arheos (talk) 00:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out similar examples like São Paulo, León, Cádiz, Córdoba, Málaga, etc. İzmir is not an island by the way. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 00:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oops, sorry about the island reference. Don't know how that slipped away, I was on another page about Imbros and Tenedos and I was on auto-mode. Still, even for those, can you brief me on the explanation behind it? I'm sure it's hidden around the talk pages, most probably the archives, but if you can be bothered...Cheers. Arheos (talk) 11:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

text: These anonymous and even logged-in (!) Turkish jokers are sufficiently answered at Talk:Smyrna. --Wetman (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  ? There are 15 million Greeks all over the world.Reaper7 (talk) 21:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirecting [[Smyrna]] 

message: http://www.agiasofia.com/horton/table.jpg
If it is not, can it be added? Reaper7 (talk) 05:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  ? There are 15 million Greeks all over the world.Reaper7 (talk) 21:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a fake? 

message: Why is this article not labeled under the Turkish Portal?  Murat (talk) 12:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkish Portal

message: There has been recent activity by removing the Ionian University (first established in the city, at 1920), from the list of universities, with edit summaries that are either irrelevant [] or aggresive without giving an argument [].Alexikoua (talk) 16:57, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Ionian University

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thread_title: File:Oteller Street Basmane Izmir.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: In June, an edit dated the claim as to Izmir's population to 2010.  Which would be plausible if it were only the city or metro area, however it's claimed that the metro area is defined as Izmir province.  I doubt that say Kınık is really part of metro Izmir, but we'll go with that.  A noted at Izmir Province, the 2010 population of Izmir Province is about 3.95 million.  I'm changing it to reflect that, but if someone has a better estimate of Izmir's actual metro area.(I'm not sure how this is defined, but this map seems plausible, we should go with that, I think.  Regards, Quintucket (talk) 06:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: I think it is time now to introduce the (second) pie chart to the articles Izmir and Great fire of Smyrna. There seems to be no controversy about the Horton pie, and it would greatly add to the information in the articles. Regards! 79.160.40.10 (talk) 08:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time gentlemen, please 

message: Why not get the average from both the neutral Horton and the neutral Flemming? Why is this chart such an issue? It would be one of the most interesting things in the article. I dont see why certain editors fear it so much?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.26.229.19 (talk) 17:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Average Pie Chart