Talk:Bayt Jibrin

message: Why so much on the wedding dress?  It seems disproportionate... AnonMoos 15:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it seems very unnecessary, I've seen it on other town articles in the Hebron District like al-Dawayima -- Al Ameer son 19:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: A woman's jillayeh (wedding dress), from Beit Jibrin, about 1900, is in the Museum of International Folk Art (MOIFA) collection at Santa Fe, USA.  It is of  handwoven indigo linen and has very long, pointed wing-sleeves. The qabbeh (=chest-piece) is embroidered with several patterns: the qelayed pattern, a pattern with inverted, smaller chevrons; the so-called maya ("water") motif, el-ferraneh ("the bakers wife") pattern, and the saru ("cypress") motif.
The side panels of the dress are completely covered with embroidery. The motifs include: mushut ("combs"), qubur ("graves"), fanajin qahweh ("coffee cups"), and rukbeh ("knee"). There are some shajarat el-hub ("trees of love") embroidered on to the red  and orange silk on the front of the skirt. The embroidery is silk cross stitch, mainly in red, with some orange yellow, pink, and purple. Stillman, p.58-59, illustrated
MOIFA also has  a shambar (large veil) from the late nineteenth century from Beit Jibrin. 
This veil would be used with a jillayeh as above, for weddings and festivals. It consists of  3 sections of handwoven black silk (each the width of the loom)  embroidered and joined together lengthwise with Cretan stitch. There is a heavy red silk fringe which was made separately and added to the embroidered end. Stillman, p.66, illustrated  Stillamn illustrated plate 15, facing p.33
::I really object to this removal; Beit Jibrins importance regarding costumes is also mentioned elsewhere (which I will add). Now, I totally agree that the article, with or without this part, is "tilted", but that should be amended by adding lacking material, not by subtracting existing material. Regards, Huldra 11:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture

message: Ok, for more pictures (although this article already has two more pictures that the average  "depopulated village") : besides the David Roberts picture , try the Matson  collection; that is, go to http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/mdbquery.html, type in "Jibrin" and search. The problem is:  none of the pictures in the Matson collection are for sure before 1923. Sooo: we must contact the curators at the Matson collection and ask them if we can use the pictures. Anybody volunterer?
:Seems like too much to do, and you're right this is the only depopulated village with two pictures. If we find an old picture of Bayt Jibrin (which we'll be bound to find) we'll upload it. Right now the status quo is just fine. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures? 

message: Al-Almeerson: thanks for finding the Ázza refugee-camp...never thought about the possibility of it being named after the "prime" family...facinating..  Huldra (talk) 07:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is quite interesting (It looks the 'Azza were the Husaynis of Bayt Jibrin). Anyway the article is just a stub from a UNRWA profile. I'll expand it later. Right now I'm working on this article and an interesting little village in the Jordan Valley named al-Fasayil. Very historic but very small and primitive until today. Its being eaten away slowly by house demolitions. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: PS

message: ahh, yes, we are all missing Tiamut <sob>Pls, pls, come back! Huldra (talk) 07:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully she does come back, the project needs her very much. She would be extremely delighted to see an article on a depopulated village potentially becoming a GA. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: PPS

message: Is he a governor, a general or just a local Ottoman sympathizer. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it might be. Did he reign in 1855? --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whose Kamil Pasha? 

message: Problem on causes of depopulation. the causes will not allow a reference on the causes. So I've left the reference off. Mildly annoying I tried it every which wayAshley kennedy3 (talk) 01:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its alright, as long as it's referenced somewhere in the article and it is. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Village Template

message: *Is Darum the modern-day Deir al-Balah? If so I could wikilink it.
*I changed "Muslim mystic" to "Sufi mystic", is this correct? --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarifications 

message: Legend claims Bayt Jibrin was the burial place of a companion of the prophet Muhammad, Tamim Abu Ruqayya.Khalidi, p.209  Other ancient tombs in the village include one for a local resident Sheikh named Mahmud and his wife Ameina.Abu-Sitta, p.117
This bit about legend and tombs is probably best left to the culture section of the town, rather than history as there are no other historical information about any of these people... Epicadam (talk) 07:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add to culture? 

message: "The Scottish painter David Roberts did a sketch there in 1839 that became the basis for a lithograph that appeared in his  book Holy Land, Syria, Idumea, Arabia, Egypt & Nubia .An original hand-coloured lithograph of Beit Jibrin by Louis Haghe, Beit Jibrin, or Eleutheropolis"
That is also probably best left to another section, maybe even Geography?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epicadam (talk • contribs) 16:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Painting

message: Whaw, --been away 3 days and the article has completely changed! First: a big thank you to  Epicadam  for reviewing  the article, much appreciated!
Just a few quick notes (in a hurry!): 
*on culture: the costumes were unique to each village, as it says in Palestinian  costumes "a woman's economic status, whether married or single, and the town or district of origin," ...could be "read" from her dress. Now the inf. there is totally confused. The information is taken from two different sources, and that should be mentioned (and kept seperate), as the dresses/styles developed over time.  I had thought of putting the details into footnotes, like, say, note 50 & 51 in Palestinian  costumes. (hey, this article basically got started because of the costumes-section.....)
*on 1948 Arab-Israeli war: why was so much material cut out? 
*the end of the Ottoman rule -section: It is ok to cut it down (& the story was also very messy), however, as it stands now it is simply wrong.  The Pasha *did not* take an oath of loyalty from the local sheikhs, *before* he met Muslih al-´Azza in Bayt Jibrin etc. I´ll try to fix it later.
*I just took a very quick look at the edit-war(?) that there apparently have been here. I don´t know the involved writers, but of Israeli guide-books in general, read eg. Benvenistis  Sacred Landscape: Buried History of the Holy Land Since 1948.  .. there are so many, many examples (One that Gilabrand and I have clashed about before, is  American Colony Hotel...where his Israeli guidebooks talk about an "Arab" Pasha, or an "Ottoman" Pasha as original owner. In fact the owner belonged to the most prominent Palestinian family; the Hussaynis, and the  "Arab" Pasha was the father of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni ..Ah, well, I have never come around to finding sources in English, yet.) But I digress))
*ok, I will (hopefully) be back in about 12 hours from now to  do some more work.. Anyway, thanks to everybody who has worked on the article! Regards, Huldra (talk) 08:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes in the last three days

message: Aren't we supposed to italicize all non-English names (except the article name of course). For example, I italicized nahiya and liwa, but do we italicize Eleutheropolis and Bethgibelin and Maresha throughout the article or just once? --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Proper nouns (like names) are not italicized, but regular words like nahiya and liwa definitely should be. Epicadam (talk) 16:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Italics

message: In the first paragraph about the Ottoman Empire, it says this: "In 1596, Bayt Jibrin was incorporated into the Ottoman nahiya (subdistrict) of Hebron under the liwa´ (district) of Gaza." (I added "of Hebron", since that seemed to make the most sense.)
However, later in the article it says this: "In 1855, the newly-appointed Ottoman governor of the Jerusalem district, Kamil Pasha, made a more serious effort to subdue the district's rebellious Hebron region, which included Bayt Jibrin."
So, the question is what region/district/subdistrict was Bayt Jibrin actually in? It seems like it was a part of the "Hebron region" as well as the districts of Jerusalem and Gaza?? It's a bit confusing. Thanks, Epicadam (talk) 17:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe Huldra has the sources, however could it be that Bayt Jibrin indeed was a part of the main Gaza district, but nonetheless the Jerusalem governor got involved with the town in a wider effort against the rebellious Hebron region. Just to be sure, let's wait for Huldra's response. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I just saw this question. I have changed the text so it says "Sanjak Jerusalem".  AFAIK: during most of the 19.th century Ottoman rule in Palestine (≈present day Israel + West Bank + Gaza), the land was devided into three  administrative areas, or "Sanjaks". The southern-most of these three was called the "Sanjak of Jerusalem", and included Jaffa, Jerusalem, Hebron and Gaza. (The northern-most district was called "Sanjaq Acre", and included Safad, Tiberias, Nazareth Acre, Haifa, and Jenin. The middle district was the smallest, called "Sanjaq Balqua" it included Nablus.) Regards, Huldra (talk) 22:05, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ottoman Empire history question 

message: "Other Islamic holy sites in the village include the maqam for a local sheikh named Mahmud and a tomb for a sheikha named Ameina.[3]"
I'm not so sure it's clear just exactly what a maqam is... Epicadam (talk) 19:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, the wikilink is incorrect. The intended meaning is "shrine". I'll replace it now. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maqam? 

message: The Ancient Arab Period. The country was occupied in 638 by the Arabs who, on their arrival at Gaza, tried to force sixty soldiers of the city garrison to apostatize. These resisted and, brought to Jerusalem, were martyred. Their remains were deposited in the church of the Trinity at Eleutheropolis. was from the ref but the sentence had suddenly got a whole new meaning....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: read the refs

message: You're naffing the history up again read Jean Richards before you make historical choices...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 23:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, could you pls tell who this is addressed to? Regards, (who admits that she has not read  Jean Richards)Huldra (talk) 00:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ibelin

message: Ok, I´m certainly not an expert on Israeli/Palestinian geography...so could somebody tell me the difference between Mount Hebron and Judean Mountains? Is one just a POV fork? Hebron Hills normally redirs. to Mount Hebron, ....but in the  "Geography" section of the article somebody has linked it to Judean Mountains instead. Any explanation?  Regards, Huldra (talk) 00:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Mount Hebron]], and [[Judean Mountains]] 

message: I see that someone has edited out all dates. Is there some reason for leaving dates out?Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 11th Century

message: Is wiki running out of paper? In not why the need to reduce the article to 2 words?...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Paper

message: I see all reference to it being an Idumean city have mysteriously disappeared.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Edomites

message: Bet Guvrin replaced Maresha as the most important settlement in the area. It is initially mentioned by Josephus Flavius in 68 CE as one of the towns conquered by the Roman general Vespasian. Following the destruction of the Second Temple, it continued to exist as a rather crowded Jewish settlement until the Bar-Kochva Revolt, 132-135 CE.
As Josephus called it Bethletephon I think you'll find that the world heritage site is referring to the modern name and not the ancient name......that little bit initially mentioned by gives you a clue....Also note the WH site is referring to Beit Guvrin at times when we all know it was known by Bethgibelin....rather puts the kybosh on the name bet guvrin Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Josephus did not call it Bethlethephon, but Betabris (Wars 4:447)  describing it was one of two villages taken by the Romans in 68 CE "right in the heart of Idumea." Eleutheropolis encompassed the districts of Bethletepha, western Edom and Hebron up to Ein Gedi, and included over 100 villages. The tannah Judah b. Jacob and the amora Jonathan (referred to in the Talmud as "Yonatan me-Bet Guvrin" or Jonathan of Bet Guvrin) were residents of Bet Guvrin. The Talmudic region known as Darom (Daromas in Greek) was within the area of Bet Guvrin. (Encyclopedia Judaica, Bet Guvrin, p.731, Keter Publishing, Jerusalem, 1972). Bet Guvrin is Aramaic ("guvrin" is the Aramaic plural of "gever" - man, or strong man) which was the spoken language of all residents of Palestine at the time. (Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine, Catherine Hezser, 2001, pp.249-250). Toldot Milhemet Hayehudim Im Haroma'im (Wars of the Jews) translated into Hebrew from the Greek and annotated by Y.N. Simchoni, Masada Press, 1961, brings the original Greek in a footnote and equates it with Bet Guvrin (Book 4, 8:4). Bet Guvrin is discussed in the Talmud in reference to tithes and application of shmitta agricultural laws that apply only in the Land of Israel. --Gilabrand (talk) 05:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bet Guvrin

message: During the Persian period, after the destruction of the First Temple, Maresha and all of southern Judea was settled by Edomites, who came from the southeast. At the end of the 4th century B.C.E. Sidonians and Greeks came to Maresha, bringing the Hellenistic culture with them. In addition, isolated Egyptians and a few Jews lived there - refugees from the fall of the Temple and emigrants from the Coastal Plain. Thus was created the special fabric of society in this Hellenistic city, which was an important economic center. During the same period, the Lower City was built, and in it many caves were hewn. From historical sources and local excavations it became evident that in 113 BCE John Hyrcanus I, the Hasmonean, conquered Maresha and converted the residents of the city and its surroundings to Judaism. The upper and lower city became desolate ruins. However, Maresha recovered and was repopulated, but its settlement was sparse, and according to Josephus Flavius, it was finally demolished by the Parthian Army in 40 BCE. 
''
Amazing we had all this in before and then some wacky editor took it out???? So lets put it all back in shall we....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 22:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Wacky editing

message: After these last few days it seems as if there is, in part, more detailed information about Maresha and Eleutheropolis in  *this* article, than it is in the Maresha and Eleutheropolis articles! This is surely absurd. Could someone mv. relevant information over to the "main" articles about Maresha and Eleutheropolis? Thank you. Huldra (talk) 22:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Maresha]] and [[Eleutheropolis]] 

message: Since someone wants to use the talmud; can we have a reference from the talmud or all reference to the talmud will have to go. A weak secondary source is not the best of sources...WH uses Bet guvrin for the 3 cent. yet 3rd cent was when Severus renamed it Eleutheropolis...4th cent was still Roman under the emerging Byzantium period when the taxes got extremely onerous due to the wars against Persia; causing a major economic collapse in the region..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bet Govrin

message: revival of Judaism? The reference mentions nothing of the sort. Only that it is mentioned in the talmud. Highly dubious unsupported POV.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll hide the specific text until a source is found. I don't want anything to hamper the GA review. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: important

message: UNESCO is certainly a reliable source. In the text it is used to back the statement that says the town was called Beit Guvrin before the Roman conquest. If anyone challenges this please post another reliable source that counters the statement. This way, we could word the sentence(s) with an "according to blank1 ..., however blank2 says ..." terminology. Please provide the counter statement from a reliable source and both sides remember to stay civil and not to dismiss each other's sources or statements. Let's get this issue resolved now. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You make some very good points :-) We'll have to see what Gilabrand could say about this. I'll contact him. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Josephus uses Betaris" - Josephus wrote two versions of Wars of the Jews, one presumed to be in Aramaic (of which no copies have survived) and a translation into Greek specifically for the Romans. Obviously, he would use the Greek name in such a text, but you can't extrapolate from that that it was the only name. The Greek version was a commissioned work, and scholars believe it was also carefully edited by Roman editors to improve the linguistic style. My edition of the book (in a Hebrew translation with scholarly annotations) has a footnote offering both Betaris and Betabris - although Encyclopedia Judaica mentions only Betaris. As I already noted above, Toldot Milhemet Hayehudim Im Haroma'im (Wars of the Jews) translated  by Y.N. Simchoni, Masada Press, 1961, brings the original Greek in a footnote and equates it with Bet Guvrin (Book 4, 8:4) Another point I have already made (it might be nice if you actually read my answers, is that Bet Guvrin/Beit Govrin is discussed in the Jerusalem Talmud (also known as the Palestinian Talmud) which was written in the 3rd-4th centuries. There are many references to Beit Guvrin/Govrin, one of them regarding tithes and the application of "shmitta" agricultural laws. (Tractate Y D'mai 2).In addition, two rabbis are specifically described as residents of Beit Guvrin--Gilabrand (talk) 15:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

text: "During the Roman period, cities in Palestine were given Roman names: Aelia Capitolina = Jerusalem; Diocaesarea = Sepphoris; Diospolis = Lydda/Lod; Philadelphia = Amman; Ptolemais = Acre, Eleutheropolis = Bet Guvrin" - This is a quote from "The Roman Road System in Judaea" by Israel Roll, The Jerusalem Cathedra: Studies in the History, Archeology, Geography and Ethnography of the Land of Israel ed. Lee Levine, Yad Izhak Ben Zvi & Wayne State University Press, 1983). It was standard practice for the Romans to rename cities, but these names were used for a limited period of time, and appeared in official documents and inscriptions. That doesn't mean that the old names were erased and no one used them anymore. I haven't seen anyone making the same claim for any of these other cities.--Gilabrand (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A book by Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literature in Roman Palestine (pp.249-250) cites a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud by Rabbi Jonathan of Bet Guvrin in which he discusses the appropriate use of various languages: "Greek for song, Latin for war, Aramaic for mourning, Hebrew for speaking." (Tractate Y Megillah 1:11b)--Gilabrand (talk) 16:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Another interesting mixup: The Crusaders identified Beit Guvrin with Beersheba and it was only when Robinson arrived in the 19th century that it was equated with Eleutheropolis ("Perceptions and Images of the Holy Land" Yehoshua Ben Arieh, The Land That Became Israel:Studies in Historical Geography ed. Ruth Kark, Yale University Press & Magnes Press, 1989, p. 47)--Gilabrand (talk) 16:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Who contests? Ashley. Although I suggest we wait until she writes a book and gets it published (not self-published) by a good university press (and definitely not UNESCO or a publication company that sounds too Jewish) before we add her name.--Gilabrand (talk) 06:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, it's a he (just found out) and let's just cool down here. If Ashley does not present a reliable source to back his argument, then there is no base for his argument and this discussion would be rendered pointless; the Beit Guvrin claim would stay without a "however" to counter it. Although I do request you add another source for it to back UNESCO. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resolving problem 

message: The bible has Mareshah a long way before 40BCE. and the Bible has Mareshah not Maresha...The Bible tells us all about it being an edomite city...Which again does not square with the place being known as Bet Govrin...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bible

message: Hi all. The week review period is up and it still appears that there is still a good deal of work being performed on the article. For this reason, I believe the article fails the stability requirement of WP:GACR. When the article is in final form, please renominate! The article has come a long way since its original nomination and I'd really like to see it get up to GA status. Remember: there's no waiting period necessary to renominate, but since this article has had some stability issues, it may be best to wait for a few days after the last major edits to relist at GAN.
Please find the GA talk page here: Talk:Bayt Jibrin/GA1 Best, epicAdam (talk) 15:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Fail

message: "Typically not necessary to have subsection headers marking divisions in time" - I disagree with whoever wrote that. I have worked on many articles (including featured articles) that mark divisions in time. The history section here is too long and needs subsections badly--Gilabrand (talk) 15:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree. I used subsections for Bethlehem and Nablus and it was fine. I say "Roman period", "Arab, Crusader and Mamluk rule", "Ottoman rule" and "British Mandate" (the '48 War should get it's own section or just be included in British Mandate section?). --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  history sections 

message: This historical figures from the Talmud were introduced because there was a demand for them, as proof that Jews lived in this city. To remove them on the grounds that they are in the same category of some unknown Muslim shaykh who may or may not be buried there is unacceptable. If you want this article to move forward, removing sourced information that I have taken great pains to gather is not the way to do it. I complied with requests to bring citations and information, which I have done. I have not incorporated it in the article because of the edit warring that is going on here. Knowing who I'm dealing with, all my work will be in vain. When the behavior of disruptive editors is reined in (which I am surprised has not been done until now, but is clearly part of a pattern of dealing lightly with disruption if it backs up your political agenda), I will proceed further.--Gilabrand (talk) 06:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoa, sorry I just removed the bit because Epicadam and I discussed that saying the archbishop of Cyprus was from the city and a Muslim mystic had a hermitage there was not relevant to the history of the "city". Saying there was a revived Jewish population in the city with a reliable source (which you added) is enough and is incontestable. The source you used backs a non-controversial claim that doesn't  need additional "proof" that Jews lived there by giving examples of notable Jews who were from the city. We don't need to list notable Christians or Muslims who lived in the city to prove they had a presence there. Unless Judah or Jonathan had something to do with the history of Bayt Jibrin (any activities there) then their mentions will be removed from the body and relocated to See also where we will also list the archbishop. Thanks for your efforts and honestly, they are greatly appreciated. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, let me say that my goal on Wikipedia is not GA status, but FA status - and I will devote my energies to any article I believe is worthy, regardless of whether it belongs to WP Israel or WP Palestine, in the interests of providing an in-depth presentation of a part of the world that is sadly dismissed as a war zone and nothing more. Now, in order to provide this multi-layered view, I see nothing wrong with mentioning a bishop or a shaykh or a Talmudist who lived and worked in a city (as long as this is sourced), even if we have no record of the street they lived on or where they bought their groceries. History comes alive that way. It sheds light on the fact that people of different religions lived in this city (even if some editors would prefer that it not be so) - not to mention the fact that these were not just ordinary villagers but important religious leaders, which adds a whole other dimension. Bait Jibrin/Beit Guvrin was not just a village. It was a hub of activity in the ancient world before it was a rural settlement that was notable only for the taxes the villagers paid on their beehives. As for moving these Talmudists to "also see" - that makes no sense, as there are no articles about them. The link is to articles about other people. At the moment, this information may stand out, but once the history part is divided into subsections, as suggested, it will make more sense. Then you can also add more information about the ancient sheikh tombs and Christian clergy without a problem. I am glad to hear my input is appreciated by someone. Up until now, I can't say that I have felt it.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:33, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The history section already looks better, and could possibly be refined further, as you say. I will read it later. I love messing around on Wikipedia, but sometimes I do have to work...--Gilabrand (talk) 08:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing requested information 

message: Gilabrand your web site gives as reference to the use of the name Bet Guvrin:-
History of Occupation: (Mareshah/Eleutheropolis/Bet Jubrin)
A. Late Bronze Age: Josh. 15:44 mentioned as city of Judah.
Keilah and Achzib and Mareshah
B. United Kingdom: no mention.
C. Divided Kingdom:
1)   A city fortified by Rehoboam (2 Chron. 11:5-8).
Mareshah
2)   Good King Asa (3rd king of DK) attacked by Zerah of Sudan (called the Ethiopian) sets stage for great victory spoils for Judah (2 Chron. 14:8-10).
Mareshah
3)   Micah 1:15 Tells of the coming judgment described in the trail of Philistine armies from Gath to an invasion of Judah, it makes way through Mareshah.
D. Judah Alone: no mention.
E. Persian Period: no mention.
F. Hellenistic Period: C4BCE populated by Idumeans, Sidonians and Greeks, (based on burial evidence). Lower city built. Few Jews and Egyptians. Circa 113 BCE, John Hyrcanus I (Hasmonean) converted city and environs to Judaism, Upper and Lower city become ruins.
G. Roman Period: Repopulated until destroyed in 40 BCE by Parthians. Birthplace of Herod the Great. Replaced by Marissa Josephus Antiquities 12, 8, 6: mentioned first by Josephus in 68 CE as conquered by Vespasian. Crowded with Jews between 70 CE and 132 CE. About 200 CE Emperor Septimus Severus renamed city Eleutheropolis or city of the free, granted it municiple status. Aqueducts, five highways, ampitheatre, public market built.
H. Byzantine Period: C3-4 CE sages mentioned like Rabbi Yonaton and Rabbi Yehuda Ben Yaacov lived here. Large Jewish cemetery discovered. Several churches (including St. Anne’s) built.Ptolomy Betogabra early Byzantium then Bet Guvrin
I. Early Arab Period: Most of the Bell caves dug in early Arab period, used for building chalk road surfaces.
J. Crusader Period: Church in lower city (near road) dedicated in 1136 CE.
K. Modern Period: Arab village position of Egyptian Army (took British Taggart fort) June 48, removed October 48 by Israel. May 49 Kibbutz established.
only one little detail wrong Josephus doesn't refer to Beth Guvrin as claimed by the reference but he did call it Betaris. Sorry but you'll have to find another reference. The first time the Beth Guvrin is used is in the Talmud either the cCE200 or the cCE500. And the birth place of Herod??? Ashkelon...no exactly an accurate site....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 23:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One of your (many) problems is that you keep up a steady patter, but never look at the answers. I wrote above that the Jerusalem Talmud was compiled in the 3rd-4th centuries. Here is a source for the fact that Rabbi Jonathan of Beit Guvrin is from the 3rd century.  "Jonathan (Nathan) of Bet Gubrin: Palestinian scholar of the third century; junior of Joshua b. Levi and senior of Simon b. Pazzi (Cant. R. i. 1). He confined his labors to the Haggadah, and contributed to the Midrash several homilies, some of which, however, are given under different names in other compilations. One of his sayings was: "Four great languages have been given to the world: Greek for song, Aramaic for dirges, Hebrew for conversation, Latin for war" (Yer. Meg. i. 71b; comp. Esth. R. iv. 6; Midr. Teh. xxxi. 21). Bibliography: Bacher, Ag. Pal. Amor. iii. 592.S. S. S. M." (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=J&artid=404)--Gilabrand (talk) 11:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  All the material I have cited above shows that Beit Guvrin was inhabited by those who fled Maresha, before the Roman period. I am anxiously awaiting the learned book you are writing on the history of the world. When that happens, you can rewrite Wikipedia. --Gilabrand (talk) 19:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Beit Guvrin

message: To find a solution on whether or not using "Beit Guvrin" as Bayt Jibrin's original Aramaic name in the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment (how to solve this problem)

message: It seems as if almost every traveller to Palestine  visited Beyt Jibrin after Robinson had identified it as Eleutheropolis.  What is great is that many of the books from these travellers have come on the net in the last year or two (the copyright has long since expired). I will try to collect the ones I have found here, with page ref. (for a general list, see User:Huldra/Sources)
*James Finn  (1868):  Byeways in Palestine, Search for "Bait Jibreen"
***Spring 1849. p. 176, p.178-182, stay at  Bait Jibreen, at the house of the brother of the sheik
***Spring 1853, note 182: fighting in Bayt Jibreen, at least 35 killed.
*Robinson, Edward  (1856): Biblical researches in Palestine, 1838-52. A journal of travels in the year 1838. By E. Robinson and E. Smith. Drawn up from the original diaries, with historical illustrations,
*William McClure Thomson, (1859):    The Land and the Book: Or, Biblical Illustrations Drawn from the Manners and Customs, the Scenes and Scenery, of the Holy Land  Vol II, 1860. Search for "Beit Jibrin", There are many different versions of this book, also on the net, some with illustrations! See illustrations: 
***p. 359: 
***p. 371: 
*H. B. Tristram  (1865): The land of Israel: Travels in Palestine.  Mohammed Isa of Bayt Jibrin: February-April 1864, p. 374, p.377, p.378, p.381 and  p.506 
*Carel Willem Meredith van de Velde (1854): Narrative of a Journey Through Syria and Palestine in 1851 and 1852. VOL II.
I will add more as I find it. Regards, Huldra (talk) 03:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old sources 

message: The map coordinates at the top of the article show the current location to be inside of Israel. Is this correct? I am categorizing the images in the article. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:10, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Bayt Jibrin is currently within Israel's borders. Is what you want to know? -- Al Ameer son (talk) 01:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thank you. I was confused by the article and some of the image descriptions. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map location 

message: It may be a little too off-topic for this page, but I've put the 1168 Hospitaller charter for Bethgibelin on Latin Wikisource, here, if anyone is interested. I couldn't find it anywhere online so I just copied it out myself. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks. Zerotalk 06:11, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  1168 Hospitaller charter 

message: I'd would like to merge the Bayt Jibrin page to the Beit Guvrin, Israel page, since both pages refer to the same place, Beit Guvrin being what exists today.--Sreifa (talk) 05:30, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fine this way. There are numerous other articles for ancient/medieval sites in the Middle East, distinct from the articles on the modern sites. These two articles are pretty large on their own so merging them would make one unnecessarily giant article. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The merge would only add a paragraph--Sreifa (talk) 04:32, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm not saying Bayt Jibrin doesn't merit an article. But the way it's being done right now results in confusion and repetition. And you removed the National Parks cat, even though Bayt Jibrin was/is located in what is today a national park. Maybe all we need is a bunch of "see alsos" but something here doesn't mesh.--Sreifa (talk) 06:01, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed those cats because they are inaccurate. Bayt Jibrin does not exist as a park or an archeology site in Israel, the town no longer exists. Beit Guvrin does. nableezy - 12:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Bayt Jibrin as a place exists within the park, even if not as a living town. And since this article gives the history and archaeology, it is in the cat of a site in Israel.--Sreifa (talk) 13:06, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. A new town, founded in 1949, exists on the land of a town that no longer exists. This is not analogous to St. Petersburg and Leningrad, a city that remained the same except for the name. These are two separate topics, a city that existed pretty much uninterrupted from some time BCE through 1948 when it was forcefully depopulated of its residents and a new town that was established several months later in 1949. nableezy - 13:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

text: ..and today a park exists in the same place (because of that same history). I'm not here to tell you that you're wrong about Bayt Jibrin, just that something here misses the bigger picture.--Sreifa (talk) 03:20, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that, but that park is not a part of Bayt Jibrin. It may be on the same site of Bayt Jibrin, but it is not a part of Bayt Jibrin. nableezy - 03:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Isn't it all historic?--Sreifa (talk) 07:25, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge 

message: Enough with this overpoliticised BS! One site is one site. Bayt Jibrin is history, no reason to make it the "main article". This "my lobby is stronger than yours" BS is on kindergarten level.
These 5 articles should be ONE:
-Bayt Jibrin
-Beit Guvrin National Park, actually Beit Guvrin-Maresha National Park
-Eleutheropolis
-Kibbutz Beit Guvrin, Israel
-Maresha
Arminden (talk) 14:11, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: See the discussion at Talk:Eleutheropolis. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:19, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unify the 5 (!?!) articles dealing with the same site 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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