Talk:Carantania

message: What, for goodness' sake, is the purpose of the picture of an admittedly impressive 15th century village church that has nothing whatsoever to do with Carantania?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marschner (talk • contribs) 00:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Maria Saal Church Picture

message: The first mention of this state in official documents has been dated to 595, according to present knowledge.
Actually, Paulus Diaconus doesn't mention the Karantania state. This is what he writes:
In these days Tassilo was ordained king among the Bavarians by Childepert, king of the Franks. And he presently entered with his army into the province of the Sclabi (Slavs), and when he had obtained the victory, he returned to his own land with very great booty.
That happened in 595. As you can see, Paulus Diaconus doesn't use the word Carantania, he uses the words Sclaborum provincia (the s that Thomas Jefferson read about installing the Caranthanian dukes in the Jean Bodin's "Six livres de la Republique". That's it. And XJamRastafire read the nonsense about inspiring Jefferson in J. ?avli's book "Slovenska dr?ava Karantanija" (the map of Caranthania is from the same source too). XJamRastafire is excellent physicist and not-so-good historian, ?avli is just an amateur historian, an awful one, few of the worst in Slovenia.
One more thing. As a matter of fact this nonsense si not "the kind of Slavic claim" but the claim of some Slovenes, followers of amateurish (so call) Venetian theory. See also the talk page of Timeline of Slovene history.  TomS 14:12, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  595 

message: Guys, I thik the object on the picture shouldn't be labeled Duke's Stone. Two objects were involved in the ceremony, namely (sorry, I only know the German names), the Fürstenstein (Prince's stone) and the Herzogsstuhl (Duke's chair). The image clearly shows the chair, not the stone. I would also suggest adding the German geographical names for matter of clarity. The area north of Klagenfurt where the ceremony took place is now known as Zollfeld. On the procedure, see . Martg76 03:39, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you're right. This was my mistake, since I haven't correctly translated »Vojvodski stol« to Duke's chair. Thanks for your correction. --XJamRastafire 01:08, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duke's stone and Zollfeld 

message: Considering that Karantania later became the Duchy of Carinthia, shouldn't we distinguish between the "coronation" ceremonies as well? The prince's of Karantania were installed on the Prince's stone, but the Duke's chair didn't play any role. After Karantania became a duchy, the dukes of Carinthia integrated the ceremony at the Prince's stone in the Ducal coronation. Gugganij 08:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ducal coronation 

message: After the incorporation of Karantania into the Holy Roman Empire the ceremonies surrounding the ducal coronation had three parts: 1. a ceremony which took place at the Prince's Stone was held in Slovenian, 2. a Mass held at the cathedral of Maria Saal, 3. a ceremony at the Duke's Chair, which was held in German. Gugganij 12:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ducal coronation (language issue)

message: Hi! I read the discussion about this question in the beginning of this talk page, and I agree with the decision to call it simply a Slavic state.
''
At first, I should tell you, that I'm a Slovenian... Anyways, I think you should look at the logical point of view - no other slavic country is closer towards Carantania then Slovenia. No other slavic country claims that Carantania was their country. Ask Croatians about Carantania, Checz, Slovak... Maybe at some point Carantania included their territory, but the the names like King Samo, St. Domitian, etc. their existecy was proven, their names mean sth. only to us. Only we have our minority in south Austria, where use to be Carantania. So your logic would be - those slavics had to leave that place but at some point slovenians came there out of nowhere?
Austrians (germans) did take away the independency of Carantania, they did cause so-called germanizing, they brought christian religion, they assimilated northeren part of Carantania, they did everything to make Slovenians look small, without history, just slaves waiting to be captured like Hitler tried... 
Conclusion - Slovenia is a small country. Yes we were captured by other countries for hundreds of years, they treated us as a part of Yugoslavia, of Austro-Ogerska, of Habsburska monarhija,... so it sounds unbelivable that this small nation was once a much bigger country, pride of Europa and yes it was a slavic state - our slavic state!!!
(omg, I speak English, I'm not Slovenian anymore, where did I go wrong :( )  
le vkup, le vkup, uboga gmajna!
What is your point exactly? This brings nothing meaningful to the discussion, as it's mostly your POV. Wikingus 13:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about??? THE CORONATION CEREMONY WAS BEING HELD IN SLOVENE LANGUAGE. What better proof do you need? Why don't you learn about the Freising monuments and other medieval Slovene manuscripts and until then please refrain from bullshitting here with provocations and your Magyar royalistic agenda. 201.51.122.168 13:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Abdulka, I don't understand what you mean. The first Slovenian writing - the Freising manuscripts - date to a time between 972 and 1032. Your theory is thus completely false. Have a nice day, and please go outside and get your mind off your strange ideology. Wikingus 16:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was move. Andrewa 10:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Langugage changed, people didn't 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support as originator. Olessi 21:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: I was just wondering, am I the only one here who has a problem with this 'map' of Karantania? I mean, basically it follows from it that the southern border of Karantania in 828 AD was exactly the same as the southern border of modern Austria with Slovenia. This I find a bit funny. As far as I know the modern border between Austria and Slovenia was established after WW1 and not in 828 AD. I don't know where this map originates from or who put it in the article, but to me it seems ridiculous. 195.210.239.32 09:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The extent of Carantania's territory is still a matter of debate among historians, but the prevailing opinion nowadays is that Carantania did not extend south of the Karawanken mountains and most likely only comprised that part of the area of modern Slovenia around the Drava River. --Jalen 18:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of Karantania? 

message: I've seen that the problem of the definition of Karantania as a Slavic vs. Slovenian principality has come again to the surface. I tried to stay out of it, because I think (contrary to my former professor Peter Štih, but similarly to his former professor, Bogo Grafenauer) that both "Slavic" and "Slovenian" are equally correct adjectives. However, to avoid further quarrels on the issue, I propose a compromise solution: why don't qualify Karantania as a "proto-Slovene principality". I think this term is the most correct one: the Karantanians were in fact proto-Slovenes, since 1) the Karantanians gradually evolved into Slovenes; and 2) the Slovenes are their only descendants. What do you guys think about it?  Viator slovenicus (talk) 14:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Wikipedia:No original research. If there is a reputable, scholarly source that speaks of Carantanians as proto-Slovenes or Carantania as a proto-Slovenian principality, then I would be willing to accept your proposal. I would also ask you to provide a source for your claim on Slovenians being the only descendants of Carantanians. --Jalen (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slavs vs. Slovenian - compromise proposal 

message: The text as of today:
"The principality of Carantania is particularly notable for the ancient ritual of installing Carantanian dukes (or princes, both an approximate translation of Fürst), a practice that continued after Carantania was incorporated into the later Duchy of Carinthia. It was last performed in 1414, when the Habsburg Ernest the Iron was enthroned as Duke of Carinthia. The ritual took place on the Prince's Stone (Slovenian Knežji kamen, German Fürstenstein), an ancient Celtic column..."
I'm going to put right some confusing or not quite correct details :
A principality is ruled by a prince,  a duke rules a duchy or  dukedom. "Duke" is not an approximate "translation" but an approx. interpretation of "Fürst" since "Fürst" is an old superlative like "first". The title is the literal translation of Latin "princeps" = prince. The Prince's Stone is not a Celtic column but the fragment of a Roman column from nearby Virunum. 
----
And, please, will someone with authority remove the lovely picture of the 15th (!) century Gothic Maria Saal village church. It's definitely not "Carantanian"! . Marschner (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Prince's Stone is definetely an ancient Roman and not Celtic column. As of the picture of Maria Saal church, I believe it can stay: of course it was largely restructured in the Gothic style (and later in the Baroque style, too; it btw. has even modernists elements from the 1920s), but the initital structure with the bases was erected during Carantanian times. Best, Viator slovenicus (talk) 21:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ducal Coronation the umpteenth

message: Immigration in 6-century is lie,Paulus Diaconus (720 - 799) woud mentioned it but he didn't beacuse there was no immigration.I i porpose that Carantania is Slovene principaly not Slavic.Infact there were some tribes in Carantania beacuse there was no borders.Like;Lombards,Celts,Avars,Bavarians...
But none of them,did not control Slovenian state,Carantania was controled by Slovene duke not Slavic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SlovenecMB (talk • contribs) 20:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: by Dr. Jožko Šavli 
Carantha.net discusses Slovenian history that has developed before and after the fall of the Roman Empire and especially during the reign of Charlemagne the Great, who created the extension of the Roman Empire. Our intention was not to discuss the history of Byzantium, because we are mainly concerned with true Slovenian history and Roman Catholicism of Slovenia. 
To answer your questions, please read http://www.carantha.net/
Forum Carantania – Slovenia and Forum Veneti
The center of regnum Noricum, (ca. 113 to 15 BC), which encompassed large parts of present-day Austria and Slovenia, was the one-time sacred mountain called Magdalensberg (Šentlenska gora) (possibly Virunum, successor of Noreia) in modern Carinthia. This name refers to the Carni, a tribe that had settled the south-western part of the province in present-day Carinthia, Upper Carniola and Friuli, were they had formed the federal kingdom of Noricum. The Latobici tribe settled in the south-eastern, meaning today's region of Celje. The Carni people gave modern Carinthia its name, and also Carnia (Northern Friuli) and Carniola (in Slovenia) were named after them. It is the same people who, after the decline of the Roman Empire in 476 AD, and after some decades of Otrogothic occupation, proclaimed an independent Carantania. In 595 AD, a historical source mentions for the first time the existence of provincia Sclavorum (Carantania) (also called Sclauinia, Slovenia).
Slovenians and Carantanians are historically an ethnic people, which is not applicable to the Slavs, who are only a linguistic and not an ethnic group.
A nation, in the sense of the national model of the 19th century, is still today stamped with an identification mark of a linguistic group. But such conception is definitely not true. For example, English speaking Americans, English/French speaking Canadians or Spanish speaking Mexicans... or even the four languages speaking Swiss, etc., each one of them must be defined as a nation. And it was not any different in historic and in pre-historic times.
Such a question must also be connected with the origin of the so-called Slavs. They are only a linguistic "national" group, and certainly not an ethnic one. However, in the sense of the 19th century conception, they were considered to be descendants of the "Ancient Slavs", like the Germans from the Ancient Germans. The ethnic group of "Ancient Slavs" was purely an academic construction. An easy demonstrable error, for they did never exist. 
--B.Jezovnik (talk) 00:03, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Carantania 

message: by Dr. Jožko Šavli (August 19, 2010)
Concerning the picture of Maria Saal from ca. 1420, which should have had nothing to do with Carantania, I feel compelled to make the following remarks: The original picture of this church, which bears the characteristic name Maria Saal, was definitely installed at the time of its foundation. This period marked the time of the Christianization of Carantania in 8th century AD. No pictures have been preserved from this period. That it really existed, is certain, because one cannot imagine a church without the image of the Saint after which it was consecrated. Furthermore, the German name Maria Saal is a derivation from the Latin appellation Maria in Solio (Mary on the Throne). It is about an image of this name, which was very much venerated in Byzantium. It arrived in Carantania through the missionaries of Aquileia. At that time, Aquileia was subordinated to the Byzantine Church and not to Rome, where the veneration of Mary was not yet promulgated. In Greek, the image of Mary on the Throne is identified as Kyriotissa, i.e., the Queen of Heaven and Earth. The Slovenian appellation Gospa Sveta (literally: Holy Mistress) is a direct translation of Kyriotissa. In the West, her name is Maestà, in Italian, and Sedes Sapientiae (Seat of Wisdom), in Latin. It is about the Eternal Divine Wisdom (Jesus). The church of Mary on the Throne called Maria Saal – Gospa Sveta was the cathedral of Carantania and was founded in 753 AD by the Irish Bishop Saint Modestus, the Apostle of the Carantanians. In a time, when the veneration of Mary did not yet exist in (Western) Europe. But it was largely diffused in the East. The translation Our Lady (Unsere Liebe Frau, in German) is formally correct. Anyway, it does not express the much more deeply rooted origin of its veneration. – . 
Please read Our Lady of Carantania
http://www.carantha.net/our_lady_of_carantania.htm
--B.Jezovnik (talk) 12:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments to Maria Saal Church Picture 

message: by Dr. Jožko Šavli, September 5, 2010
Under Emperor Diocletian (after ca. 300 AD), Noricum was divided into Noricum mediterraneum and Noricum ripense. It is beyond doubt that the one-time Roman province of Noricum mediterraneum (Inner Noricum) was the predecessor of Carantania.  It is less known, that Noricum ripense, the other ancient province of the Roman Empire, was the predecessor of Bavaria, with the chief town of Lauriacum (Lorch), Upper Austria. In the middle of the 8th century AD, Bavaria was threatened by the Avars, and the Bavarians transferred their capital to Regensburg in Vindelicia, the present-day Bavaria. Carantania included the modern Carinthia and Styria, whereas Carniola, which was part of the Roman province of Pannonia in Roman times, became a province in the lower part of the Principality of Carantania.
Was Carantania a Slavic or Slovenian duchy? Historically, Slovenians and Carantanians are an ethnic group. Slavs are only a linguistic group, and certainly not an ethnic one. However, in sense of the 19th century conception, they were considered to be descendants of the "Ancient Slavs", who at one-time should have lived in the "Ancient homeland of Slavs" behind the Carpathian Mountains. This was purely an academic construction, which was elaborated for the purpose of the pan-Slav ideology. It was, more or less, an answer to the pan-German construction, which refers to Scandinavia as the "ancestral homeland of the Germanic people". Today it is well known that both ideologies were used for imperialistic purposes. 
The naive conception of "ancient" Slavs or Germans, crowned by the well financed and ideologically-driven academic institutions, chose as comparison the Spanish speaking world, which today includes all Latin American countries. Does that mean, all Latin American Spanish-speaking inhabitants descended from the "Ancient homeland of the Spaniards", which would have been from the Iberian Peninsula? Or, would people from USA and Canada be descendants of the "Ancient English", who lived in the "Ancient homeland of the British Isles"? Only because they speak English?
Thus, regardless of all statements made by the well funded academic world, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that Carantanians are a nation of Slovenians. But in which way did they become Austrians during the centuries? Because, from the historical point of view, Austria is identical with Carantania. Its name derives from the Eastern March (a part of today's Lower Austria) on the Danube. On all maps, the Eastern March is shown as a Bavarian March. But this is a deliberately misleading statement, committed by German and present-day Austrian historiography. 
I was aware of this fact, when I read the citations of B. Grafenauer, the well-known Slovenian historian. He copied from German material the following "statement": ... In 876 AD, Prince Carloman, son of Louis the German (†), inherited Bavaria and Carantania. He ceded Carantania to his son Arnulf, except the Eastern March, which he annexed to Bavaria, where he reigned himself. 
This was surely a false interpretation. Around 856, King Louis the German deposed of Margrave Ratbod because of his connections with the hostile duke of Great Moravia. Ratbod was the military commander of the Eastern March, which at that time included Carantania and Pannonia and later only the territory on the Danube River around Melk. Already in 883, because of the Eastern March, a war broke out between Carantania and Great Moravia. How could that be possible if the Eastern March would not be a Carantanian province? After a while, I solved the puzzle with the help of heraldry. On the seals of the Eastern March, which later became known as Austria, appears the Royal Eagle and the Carantanian Panther, but no Bavarian emblem. This means, that the Eastern March was a military province of the Kingdom of the Eastern Franks (later called Germania). But its civil administration pertained to Carantania. 
In 976, Leopold was appointed Margrave of the Eastern March. At that time, Leopold did not use the family name Babenberg. It is well known, that the very family of Babenberg originated from Franconia, and that already in 906 their last member fell in battle. The name Babenberg was given to the descendants of Margrave Leopold I about 70 years later by Bishop Otto of Freising (1114 - 1158) (Vajda.42) and passed as such into the historical records. In origin, the Margrave was a member of the line of the Luitpoldings, a Carantanian family. The founder of the Luitpolding line was Luitpold (Leopold), cousin of King and Emperor Arnulf of Carinthia. Margrave Leopold, although not mentioned in the records, was the son of Duke Berthold of Carantania, the younger son of Luitpold (Leopold), Margrave of Carantania. Thus, it is clear that the Austrian "Babenbergs" actually descended from the Luitpoldings. Today, this fact is also recognized by Austrian historians. The name Austria, which gradually was extended over the Carantanian lands, derives from the Habsburg family, who in 1335 inherited all provinces of this ancient duchy. The Habsburg dynasty, it is true, first reigned in Austria (Eastern March). Bavarian and German historians persistently consider the Eastern March and the Traun March as a part of Bavaria and call them Donau (Danube) Marches. In this regard, the question of identity of Carantania and Austria is a question of names, and not a historical one. It is not a matter of true history, but of bad faith.
--B.Jezovnik (talk) 21:54, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carantania and the Eastern March (Austria) 

message: It appears to me that you guys do not comprehend the difference between these three forms territorial units.
Carantania was the first Slavic state(semi-state), whose inhabitants were ancestors of Slovenians(you can call them Slovenians - because no other Slavic tribe is the ancestor of Slovenians)
The Duchy of Carantania or Greater Carantania(later Duchy of Carinthia - the successor to the Duchy of Carantania) was a Duchy composed of the following margraviates(in Slovenian - mejne grofije(krajine)) and other territorial units: Margraviate of Carantania(later to be Styria), Margraviate of Savinja, Margraviate of Ptuj(Ptujska krajina - in Slovenian, Ptuj=Poetovio in Latin), Margraviate of Carniola, Margraviate of Istria(Histria in Latin) and finally Margraviate of Friuli. It is therefore MUCH larger than anything mentioned in this stub of an article. This offends me... (obviously I am Slovenian)
Margraviate of Carantania was a Margraviate of the Duchy of Carantania(mejna grofija in Slovenian), which was the central part of the later Styria.
Obviously there is a general problem in translating the names of these territorial units or regions if you will because only Slavic(mostly Slovenian and Croatian) or German words exist to name them(periodicity Latin expressions as well).
I would also like to mention and important document left out in this stub of an article, which is the Conversio Bagoariorum et Carantanorum(The conversion of Bavarians and Carantanians).
The document was written in 871 and it clearly proves the existence of the first Slavic state - the slovenian Carantania, it's princes(Fürst in German) and the act of The Princely Inauguration(which was later an inspiration for Jean Bodin's theory of state and his belief that the inauguration is the PROOF that the monarch executes his authority from the people's bestowal of it. Thomas Jefferson read of the inauguration from Bodin's work).
Finally I must add that a lot of the writings about Carantania and theories about it were written by nationalist Austrians, who undermined the idea of Carantania in peoples views of it. Therefore each map/article/theory must be critically evaluated before being accepted as true.
ESPECIALLY WHEN TALKING ABOUT IT FROM THE EYES OF AN OUTSIDER  Ciroc (talk) 01:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carantania, Duchy of Carantania(later Carinthia) and Margraviate of Carantania 

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