Talk:Twelve-string guitar

message: In the section of this article titled "Usage" the article reads "Use of twelve-string electric guitar almost appears to be cyclical: beginning with Blind Willie McTell in the '20s and '30s, Lead Belly in the '40s..." Now, I hate to be a doubting Thomas, but I'm pretty sure that Blind Willie McTell never used an electric guitar and certainly not an electric twelve. I'm also about 99% certain that Leadbelly never used an electric twelve.
This section is also just a couple of very long and somewhat confusing freight train sentences. This leads me to suggest that perhaps the "Usage" section be re-written. Don (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage

message: I believe the title should be Twelve-string guitar.  Can someone move it to a new title? Mengsk 21:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title problem. 

message: Traditional Brazilian music does not use a 12-string. It uses a 10-string guitar ("viola" is the name of the 10-string, not the style), typically with different tunings from the 12-string.
A link on the 10-string:  --LodeRunner 22:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed some incorrect information 

message: i recently saw a twelve string strung with the light string before rather than after the heavy string on a downward strum is this correct or is it just personal choice
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.152.80.13 (talk) 18:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: that is the normal stringing for an acoustic 12. rickenbacker switched it around for their electrics and i guess it's backmigrated to acoustics?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 21:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  stringing a twelve string...Apart from being a bitch to tune 

message: Since Hackett, Rutherford and Phillips are mentioned, maybe Tony Banks should be too? He frequently played 12-string on Genesis studio albums and stage performances.
Whitespacebug 16:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tony Banks 

message: Wow, this article needs a lot of work to sound encyclopedic. But I think at the very least there should be a standardized spelling (if that's the right word) for twelve string/twelve-string/12 string/12-string. The article title is currently "Twelve string", so that would be the obvious choice (although I personally would prefer "12-string"). --emw 16:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This needs correcting.  Is it "twelve string" or "12 string"?  The article uses both.  --Dan East 22:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standardized spelling? 

message: Could someone make a separate article called List of twelve-string guitar players or something?  
--TimNelson 05:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Players?

message: There's been a bit of discussion over the years as to the article name, with twelve string guitar and 12 string guitar most popular. I don't think there's any clear leader, there are many authorities and no consistency. I've renamed ten string guitar to fit the pattern that's been adopted by default here for the moment. Other ideas welcome. Andrewa (talk) 17:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support as nominator. This seems the best of several options, and will I hope set a precedent either way. Andrewa (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Any additional comments:
This was discussed briefly above under Standardized spelling? but no conclusion was reached, and more recently of course at Article name above and most significantly at Talk:Ten-string guitar#Article name. The issues are:
* Should the name include a hyphen? See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Hyphens. 
* Should the number be expressed as numerals or spelled out? 
So far as a common name is concerned, it seems to me that all four possibilities (hyphen or no, numerals or spelled out) are in common use. So far as WP:NC is concerned, all four possibilites would be equally easily recognised by both native and non-native English speakers.
I am seeking here a precedent that can be applied also to other guitar articles, such as Seven-string guitar and Eight-string guitar which already follow the proposed convention, and of course Ten-string guitar which inspired this move proposal.
I am not however seeking at this stage to clarify any wider convention, that is to resolve either issue in any article other than those concerning guitars with a particular number of strings. So I suggest leaving discussion of articles such as for example 5 star rank to another place and time. Andrewa (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: (cross posted from Wikiproject Guitarists
Hello, I went to the Twelve-string guitar for help with set up. I've never bought a '12 string set' of strings and have usually winged it with 2 sets of strings at differernt gauges, but I've never been quite sure I've got it right. I've usually set it so the bass E A D and G are at octaves of each other and then tuned identical B's and treble E's to the same pitch as each other. Might something be added to the article to suggest the most common set up? Even better, would be to also list typical string gauges as well as the notes they are tuned to. Regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. But in Australia, 12 string sets are very common... I have never had any trouble buying them. Normally they have the setup you describe above, with octave G, but unison G is preferred by many electic guitarists. I think we need an article on string gauge. Andrewa (talk) 09:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks. --Joopercoopers (talk) 09:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  12 string guitar gauges 

message: I'm not so much complaining as I am curious - why are both pictures of Maton guitars? Fine guitars, I am sure, but not that well known outside of their native Australia. The electric 12-string picture in particular, which shows a Maton Magnetone which is said to be a copy of a Rickenbacker 360/12 - why not a picture of an actual Rickenbacker? It's probably nothing, I just find it odd that those particular pictures have been used. --Snograt talk here 15:10, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's very simple... I own Maton guitars (by choice, but then I'm an Aussie), and so don't currently have a Rickie or Gibson to photograph! They're all excellent guitars, although I found the Rickie 360/12 I played for a while a lot bluesier than the Magnetone, which has a sweet tone all of its own, much less of a Rickie copy than it looks, and it's strung conventionally with the E octave as string 12 not 11 for example (so you'd need to modify the head nut to string it Rickie style). The Gibson 12s I've played have been superb, but a little too sweet for my taste, the Fenders a bit bluesie. For me the Matons hit the balance. But agree that they're not typical, and examples from the USA (the birthplace of the modern 12 after all) would be preferable. Ideally a Rickie 360/12 and a Gibson Hummingbird IMO. Andrewa (talk) 17:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The pictures... 

message: "Because it is substantially more difficult to pluck individual strings on the twelve-string guitar, and almost impossible to bend notes tunefully, the instrument is rarely used for lead musical parts." This would be news to both George Harrison as well as Roger McGuinn. "Rarely" seems to be a bit of a weasel word: when does "rarely" transform into, for example, "occasionally". Whether or not  12 is used for lead work depends to a large degree on the genre of music: it was not all that uncommon in the "folk" revival of the late 50s and early 60s (think "Walk Right In", British Invasion (the Hollies used on on occasion, in addition to the Beatles), and folk-rock. Wschart (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use for lead 

message: I’ve encountered some difficulties in pointing out the differences between a twelve string gt and a bajo sexto. 
I’m not a musician at all, but, as far as I can read, both gtrs look the same, each one w/ 12 strings in 6 double courses. 
Would main differences rely upon their size ? type of wood ? tuning ? no electric bajo sexto ? 
I find it rather odd that neither a single word is said about bajo sexto  nor a link to it is made in the 12 string gt article
Thanks for any help :-)
--Bibliorock (talk) 09:51, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Among the 39 registered watchers of this article, would a musician be kind enough to answer me... and some other readers ?
Thanks in advance :-) --Bibliorock (talk) 06:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

text: A Bajo Sexto is a bass, It's tuned with bass notes, and it translates to "sixth bass". I think that answers that question. Captain Superman (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Merci beaucoup, sincèrement :-) --Bibliorock (talk) 02:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Bajo sexto]] ? 

message: I'm not knowlegable enough to do it, but it would be helpful to have a "History" section discussing the origins and spread of the instrument.
For instance, (I'm not sure how to add such a long quote, with internal citations, or if we would include only parts of it?):
From: The Influences of Hispanic Music Cultures on African-American Blues Musicians, Peter Narváez, Black Music Research Journal, Vol. 22, Supplement: Best of BMRJ (2002), pp. 175-196,  Center for Black Music Research - Columbia College, Chicago and University of Illinois Press 
Quoting: [without including internal citation information] "More immediate musical links with Mexican players can be heard in the music of Blind Lemon Jefferson's partner, Huddie Ledbetter
(1888-1949), a.k.a. "Leadbelly," who migrated to Dallas from Louisiana, met Jefferson in 1912 and played regularly with him for five years. A talented singer and multi-instrumentalist (guitar, mandolin, accordion, and harmonica), at some point Leadbelly encountered Mexican-made bajosextos and twelve-string guitars, instruments originally from central Mexico which at the time were emerging, along with the accordion, as core instruments of border conjuntos (Pefia 1985, 38-39, 54). When he first played these instruments, "his fingers got to 'mashing too hard"' (Wolfe and Lornell 1992, 51), but he soon mastered a technique that, as Texas blues historian Alan Govenar (1988, 19) has noted, was "learned from the bass figures of barrelhouse pianists and from the Mexicans who sold him a twelve-string guitar." A comparison of Leadbelly's twelve-string bass runs with those of accomplished Mexican-American singer-guitarist
Lydia Mendoza reveals startling similarities in rhythms and marcato attack; for example, consider her "El lirio" ("The Lily"; 1934) and
Leadbelly's rendition of "Sweet Jenny Lee" (1948). Given the popularity of waltz rhythm among cantadores,it is noteworthy that one of the first songs Leadbelly adapted to the twelve-string guitar was "Irene," a waltz he learned from his uncle Bob Ledbetter (Wolfe and Lornell 1992, 52-53)."
I'd like to have more references like that to where early players go their instruments and developed their style.  Were 12 strings all developed from the Bajo Sexto?  That would be interesting to know.
--Accordion Noir (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  History? 

message: The article says n the "Chorus effect" section that the dual strings are tuned to exactly the same pitch, yet produce a beat effect through phase difference.
That is, of course, not possible - beat is by definition produced by a difference in frequency. Phase difference produces interference.
So either the strings are not tuned to exactly the same frequency, or the effect produced is not beat.
178.10.186.69 (talk) 12:18, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The way I've heard it, it is difficult to tune the two strings to exactly the same frequency, or in the case of the lower strings, to exactly an octave. So you're going to get a bit of a beat. I suspect that when fretting one course, the different gauge strings will react slightly differently and hence the intonation will be slightly different. Plus you get some beats even in a six because the guitar is fretted to equal temperament and the intervals are as a consequence slightly out of tune. Wschart (talk) 04:04, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chorus effect 

message: I'm creating this section to allow us to fix and build the list before returning it to the main page.  As an entirely uncited list without criteria, we can move back entries once we have a) guitarists who meet the criteria because b) we include a direct inline citation to verify that they meet the criteria.  --Jayron32 13:11, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable players list workspace 

message: Start right at the top.
*Per his article, Ariel Camacho played a requinto, a short-scale guitar with nylon strings. Since the present article begins The twelve-string guitar is a steel-string guitar, this entry quickly has three strikes against it. (Actually, the claim "He quickly became known for his expressive way of playing the requinto" is not substantiated by an outside source.) Fail.
*Steve Tibbetts? Well, he's a friend of a friend, so I'm biased by OR. However, the sole cited source in his article is a dead link so therefore invalid. At best, on the cusp.
*Cazenave: no mention AT ALL of string number. Fail.
*Rev Davis: no mention at all. The article in fact shows him with a six-string. Fail.
*Ledbetter: okay, Mister Twelve-String himself. Cited sources are questionable and largely third-hand, but meets present criteria. Success.
*McTell: claimed twice, no corroboration, BUT he recorded the LP Atlanta Twelve String. Success.
*Campbell: certainly used an Ovation 12 ("Southern Nights" for instance), but entirely NOT mentioned in article. Fail.
*McMurtry: not mentioned AT ALL in article proper. Fail.
*Roy Clark: no mention. Fail.
*Paul Brett: why is he under Classical when his article says "classic rock"??? While he endorsed a line of acoustic instruments, no claim made that he played one, but he did record 12 String Guitar & Beyond. Success.
*Basho: no source to support sole claim, but recorded Art of the Acoustic Steel String Guitar 6 & 12. Success.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:38, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this page should only mention people who are (1) wp:notable enough to have their own page here and that (2) their page mentions that the 12-string guitar was their main instrument for at least a significant period in their career. That is, famous specifically for playing 12-string. Is that approximately the criteria being used? Tayste (edits) 21:32, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

text: I've removed the first wave. Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  names that should be removed from the foregoing list 

message: *Genesis (band): "Several songs … originated on 12-string guitars" claimed but unsupported. (Instruments apparently playing without human aid.) Success, barely.
**Phillips: no mention. Fail.
**Rutherford: claim made at least six times in article, with no support offered. Success, barely.
**Banks: mentioned only in passing, without support. Fail.
**Hackett: no mention. Fail.
*Gilmour: citation verifies he owns one, no mention of play. Success, barely.
*Harrison: one poorly-written mention, but properly sourced. Success.
*Hayward: no explicit, but refers to a supportive interview. Not pretty, but success.
*Hussey: explicitly claimed, but cannot verify. Had an electric 12 custom built. Really cutting it close, but success.
*Lake: no mention. Fail.
*Mackenzie: no personal article, no mention in band article. Fail.
*McGuinn: support, quote, photo. Success.
*Nesmith: success.
*Sambora: passing mention, no support. Fail.
*Valentine: mention of ownership, verified. Success, barely.
*Strange: no mention whatever, but recorded 12 String Guitar. Success, barely.
*Mendoza: claimed in infobox, no support. Fail.
*Swift: no mention. Fail.
*Thomas: no article. Fail.
*McCabe: no article; no mention in band article. Fail.
*Bell: no mention. Fail.
*Gardener: claimed, no support. Success, barely.
*Berenyi: no mention. Fail.
*Halstead: nomention. Fail.
*Patman: no article; no mention in band article. Fail.
*Sherriff: no article. Fail.
So, onward to the Ric users, who must at least be tied to "12-string" AND "Rickenbacker." (I'm uncomfortable, as this seems to be WP plugging a particular brand.) Entries redundant with previous block ought to be cut.
*Buck: no mention. Fail.
*Marr: half-decent fanboyish support. Success.
*Harrison: more fanboyism, but supported. Success.
*Lennon: Ric, no 12. Fail.
*McGuinn: verified by cited interview. Success.
*Valentine: received unspecified Ric 12 (electric?). Success, barely.
*Petty: ownership, but specific play vague. Success, barely.
*McNally: photo, but no mention or citation. Fail.
*Wilson: claimed, poorly supported. Success, barely.
*Fradkin: claimed, unsupported. Fail.
*Connell and Huntley: no mention. Fail.
*Howes: no mention. Fail.
*Wilson-Piper: mention, poorly supported. Success, barely.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:04, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Second wave of removals. Weeb Dingle (talk) 04:33, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  names to be removed II 

message: Two recent additions were made to the electric 12 string section, which I feel rather protective of as I wrote the majority of it, which look like self promotion.
Someone inserted the information that "Musicvox began producing the Space Cadet 12 string guitar 1999 and MI-5 12 string guitar in 2011". I deleted this as producing a new model of guitar in the 90s or 2000s hardly seems notable, no one particularly famous seems to be using this model guitar, nor has it introduced anything new to the instrument in terms of innovations or design.  The editor has inserted the same information into a couple of other pages about this companies instruments and this amounts to their whole contribution to WP.
Someone inserted the name of a guitarist called "Cory Stuteville, of the band Perception". I cannot find any information on this person or his band online (there's a metal band of this name on Youtube, they do not match the description given so I assume they're not the same.) Verlaine76 (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self promotion and vandalism.