Talk:Milesians (Irish)

message: At the moment the bottom part of the page, at least for me, is a mess. I suppose it's suppose to be a chart, but it's a mess of "|"'s and names. Just a heads up.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.188.211.142 (talk) 10:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [Untitled]

message: Is there any connection between the Irish Milesians (Sons of Mil Espaine or Milesius) and the Greek Milesians (presumably followers of Miletus)? There is some entanglement of these two uses between Wikipedia articles that should be straightened out with either a disambiguation page or a combined article. -- Jeff Q 07:28, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's my understanding now that the Irish Milesians and the Greek Milesians are two different peoples. Therefore, unless people object, I plan to rename this article Milesians (Irish) and establish a disambiguation page for Milesians that will include links to the appropriate different pages. I will also update all existing links to this Irish Milesian page at that time so all other references will directly jump to the new Milesians (Irish) article. -- Jeff Q 07:38, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Yes, Artabros tribe of Brigantia in Galicia ---All this kindred forms the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) of R1b Y chromosome, also called haplotype 15, with alleles: DYS388 12 DYS390 24 DYS391 11 DYS392 13 DYS393 13 DYS394 14 (also known as DYS19)......the Basques also descended from Galicians, but not your language --Bretema7 (talk) 22:16, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: 2004 edits

message: Would the succession box not be better at the bottom of the page, instead of half way? Other articles on 'Wiki' have the boxes at the bottom, keeps it more uniform.   Culnacréann
 Horse Ireland 23:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession Box 

message: The ancient Celtic Brigantes and Gallaecians inhabited the whole northeastern corner of the peninsula, including the areas of A Coruna and Bragança. However a Coruna is mentioned in local Celtic folklore- According to Gaelic legend embodied in the 11th-century compilation Lebor Gabala Erren— the "Book of Conquests"— King Breogán, the founding father of the Galician Celtic nation, constructed here a massive tower of such a grand height that his sons could see a distant green shore from its top. The glimpse of that distant green land lured them to sail north to Ireland. A colossal statue of Breogán has been erected near the Tower. Later in Roman times, a tower was built in A Coruna, likely in the same place of a previously existing structure (whose construction they ascribed to Hercules). 
In Galicia it is commonly said that the Tower of Hercules is the Tower of Breogan (our mythical founder figure). His son Ith, then sailed from Brigantia to Ireland. See gl:Ith (in Galician). Are there similar tales going around in Portugal? I never heard of any. Naturally Galician and Northern Portuguese people are both descended from ancient Celtic tribes, and there were towns called Brigantia in what is today either country. But the Brigantium that today is A Coruna is on the sea directly south of Ireland, whereas Bragança is almost 200km inland. How could Ith have "sailed from Brigantia" if it was 200km from the sea?. If you want to see new land beyond the sea, do you build a tower by the said sea, or do you build it 200km inland?
As a side note, google Breogan Coruña and you get 304.000 hits, do it with Breogan Bragança and you get only 193 hits. Which is the obscure theory?
Some links from the web:
*http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/District/395170
*http://www.celtiberia.net/articulo.asp?id=583
84.90.16.160 20:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Tower of Hercules, is a reconstructed and modernization on the Celtic lighthouse in Roman Empire times...but not Roman in origin, until the late 19th century was called Lighthouse brigantia --Bretema7 (talk) 00:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

text: I thought Brigantium was the Latin name for present-day Betanzos? 87.241.47.125 (talk) 15:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brigantia

message: The Milesians may not be a myth; in Wikipedia's "Galicia" article, there is a link at the bottom that points to a website saying that the Irish have more in common with the Celts of Northwestern Spain, than they do with the Celts of Central Europe.  The Irish, in fact have more in common genetically with the Galicians, than they do with other Celtic populations.  There may be some historical truth to the myth; according to Irish "myth," they are originally from Spain, descended from a dude called "Milesius."
Really wish scholars would take mythology more seriously and do some detective work.  Who knows what else people will find besides just "Troy."
67.148.120.113 (talk) 04:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A book of Creationist fiction which can't be used as a source here. Dougweller (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia "Galicia" Article 

message: In the  reign of King Brath , son  of Dega, the  Gadelians sailed  form Portland or Gothinia, having with him as commanders Oige and Uige, sons of Alloyed, son of Ne niul , also , Mantan and Cancer. They sailed to Spain and there Alloid left a son named Bertha, who had a son named Breoghan , Founder of the city of  Bregonia or Braganza, in la Coruna , Galicia. There they fought the native Iberians where the  young Milesius became known for his bravery. When the wars had stopped Milesius decides to sail eastwards retrace the steps of his ancestors in Scythia . When he finally reaches Scythia and  is welcomed by King Rifloir, who  later is killed by Milesius when he learns that King Rifle  planned to have him killed. During this time his two sons by his 1st wife Seng are born  Donn and Are the Red Browed. Milesius sailed to Egypt were he again is victorious in many battles and marries Scota , the daughter of the Pharaoh Nectanebo II of Egypt who ruled Egypt from 360 - 343 B.C.. 
Milesius having recalled the ancient prophecy of Cancer, sailed from Egypt into the island of Irene, off the coast of Thracia. There his wife Scota gave birth to Ir, the 3rd son of Milesius. From Thrace, he marched trough the European continent and reached the Baltic sea, where with a fleet he reached the island of Gothiana, a island which divides the Baltic sea and the Arctic sea. On this island his 4th son Colpa of the Sword was born. From Gothiana they sailed to Alba or Caledonia where they plundered then they sailed past the Orkneys and Shetlands islands down thru the British Channel to the Bay of Biscay to Spain. There Milesius fought 54 battles against the Goths and other warrior nations. 
1. Pharaoh Nectanebo II of Egypt who ruled Egypt from 360 - 343 B.C. 
2. The Goths invaded Northern Spain circa 475 A.D.
3.  The Goths invade Moesia in 248  A.D. 
4. The Goths move into Asia minor during 250 - 270 A.D. 
5. The Goths invade Greece , Thrace, and Asia minor in 258 A.D.
6.  The  Ostrogoths leave Greece, Thrace and Asia minor in 270  A.D.
7. All the Milesians myths sound  very familiar to the Goths journey through Europe. Which leads one to see that the creation of the Irish myths were influenced by the Historia de regibus Gothorum, Vandalorum et Suevorum. 
8. In the Irish myths Milesius was a Scythian nobel whose ancestors were born in Scythia, the island of Gotland, Northern Spain , Thrace and Egypt. In the accounts of writers like  Keating, O'Hart and other pedigree writers of their time they  all have the same accounts .The  notion that a Aristocratic Scythian tribe are the progenitors of a entire society  ,  a group of Scythians from Northern Spain and from the island  of Gotland. The myth does not hold when tested by science and historical facts. Still many still do believe they descend from the Milesians.  
9. The Irish  scribes either wanted to associate the Royal lines of their Celtic kings and chiefs to  a Gothic / Scythian origin or they were retelling the folklore of a Gothic / Scythian bloodline in Ireland. The Goths were a Eastern Germanic tribe in no way associated with Celtic culture or origins. 
10. (Brath is said to be the last of the Kings of Gothinia to have led his people from Gothinia into Galicia . Before him there were 9 ancestors of Milesius who are described to have been kings of Gothinia. In the Irish tales the Milesians home land is Scythia and before they settled in Northern Spain they originally sailed from the island of Gothinia " Gotland".  ) 
11. The Milesians were not native Iberians nor were they of a Celtic origin. All Irish legends have the Milesians being from  Scythia and the island of Gothinia originally before they conquered Spain then  Ireland. Milesius is said to have fought the Goths in Spain before he traveled back to his home land of Scythia and then Gothinia again other accounts have him fighting against the Goths and then conquering Ireland.  This  would  place the Milesians  in  the  year of 475 A.D.  this was the time the Goths and Vandals were conquering Iberia. 
In ancient  accounts the island of Scanza ,  homeland of the Goths was called " Scythia Antigua". Dacia,  during the fourth century, when it was settled by Goths it was called Gothika. 
 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redhandking (talk • contribs) 18:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what we call 'original research', see WP:OR, and does not belong either in the article or on this page. If you have reliable sources - read WP:RS about the Milesians making this argument, bring them here and we can discuss them. But we aren't going to discuss your ideas or have a debate here as this is not a forum page to discuss the Milesians. Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 21:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Do I gather from the incomplete titles that this is a Google search? Please don't leave spaces at the beginning of lines. Dougweller (talk) 06:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I found Notes and Queries, perhaps you mean p. 211 which says "I again repeat that I am ashamed to quote such rubbish: the very name of Milesian is a jest to the antiquaries of Europe" - but as he's referring to his quote from Geoffrey Keating, maybe you only saw the Keating quote. Anyway, the article isn't meant to be a history of all the myths or simply errors and ignorance about the Milesians, although if you have a source for an analysis of them that would be useful. You don't expect us to take O'Hart, etc seriously do you? Spain was first peopled after the Deluge? Dougweller (talk) 07:41, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Any analysis should be based not on 17thc or even 19th century writers, but more modern ones, going back perhaps to Rolleston in the early 20th c. This looks like a good start: British Identities before Nationalism Ethnicity and Nationhood in the Atlantic World, 1600–1800 Colin Kidd. It would need to be a modern analysis. Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Journey and Gothic links ignored 

message: this article needs to be updated 
The irish did come from spain  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2CA0:2FD0:8443:A139:F53E:2FDC (talk) 03:06, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Galicia is not the same as Spain, is not the same until recently Galicia Was isolated from the rest of Spain by its mountains. Galicia had contact with northern Spain as Asturias, Cantabria and the Basque Country, Galicia has more in common with Ireland than Spain (included  Basques descended from the Galician). Translated Galicia means land of the Gaels --Bretema7 (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

text: Irrelevant anyway until we find peer reviewed articles discussing the genetics of the Milesians, sources need to discuss the subject. Dougweller (talk) 06:07, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The Milesians have no genetics. They are and were an imaginary literary-political construct designed to combine all the noble families of Ireland into a single genealogy. If it's true that the Irish have genetic ancestors in the Iberian peninsula (genetics is very new, interpretation of the evidence is changing all the time, and the way it's reported in the media is oversimplified) that's a coincidence and has nothing to to with the Milesians. --Nicknack009 (talk) 08:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Genetics 

message: Breogán
                                                                                 |
                                                        _________________________|_________________________
                                                        |                                                 |
                                                      Bile                                               Íth
                                                        |                                                 |
                                                      Galam                                             Lugaid
                                                      (Míl)                                               |
                                 _______________________|___________________                         _____|_____
                                 |     |      |      |    |       |        |                         |         |
                               Donn  Eber  Amergin  Ír  Colpa  Arannan  Éremón                    Eoinbric    Mal
                                     Finn            |                     |                         |         |
                             __________|_______      |       ______________|____________             |         |
                             |   |     |      |      |       |      |     |      |     |             |         |
                            Ér Orba Ferón Fergna    Eber  Muimne Luigné Laigné Palap Irial        Riaglan    Edaman
                                                     |                               Fáith           |         |
                                        _____________|______________                   |             |         |
                                        |                          |                   |             |         |
                                      Ebric                     Conmáel             Eithrial     Sithchenn   Congal
                         _______________|______                    |                   |             |         |
                         |        |           |                    |                   |             |         |
                      Airtre   Cearmna    Sobhairce             Eochaid              Follach     Mairtine    Dáire
                         |                                    Faebar Glas              |             |         |
                         |                                 _______|_______             |             |         |
                         |                                 |             |             |             |         |
                        Art                              Nuada        Mofemis      Tigernmas      Rothlan   Eochaid
                         |                                 |             |             |             |      Étgudach
                      Sedna 1                            Glas         Eochu         Enboth         Flann
                         |                                 |           Mumu            |           Ruadh
                         |                                 |             |             |             |
                      Fiacha                             Rossa         Énna        Smirgull        Ailill
                    Finscothach                            |         Airgdech          |             |
                         |                                 |                           |             |
                      Ollamh                         Roithechtaig                   Fiacha         Fionn
                      Fodhla                               |                      Labhrainne         |
                 ________|_____________________            |                           |             |
                 |         |        |         |            |                           |             |
             Finnachta  Slanoll   Gedhe    Cairbre        Fer                       Aengus        Eochaid
                 |         |    Ollgothach    |          Arda                      Olmucada       Apthach
              Fiacha    Ailill      |         |            |                           |
            Finnailches         Bearnghal  Labraid        Cas                   Roitheachtaigh 1
                                              |         Clothach                       |
                                              |            |                           |
                                           Bratha     Muineamhón                      Dian
                                              |            |                           |
                                            Fionn    Faildeargdoid                   Sírna
                                              |            |                           |
                                           Sirlám         Cas                        Ailill
                                              |      Cétchaingnech                  Olchaoin
                                              |            |                           |
                                         Airgeatmhar     Failbe                    Giallchaidh
              ________________________________|            |                           |
              |        |         |            |            |                           |
            Fomor   Finntan    Deman       Badarn        Roan                        Nuadat
              |        |         |            |            |                        Finnfail
              |        |         |            |            |                           |
             Dub   Cimbáeth   Díthorba       Áed   Roitheachtaigh 2                  Áedan
              |                             Ruad           |                          Glas
              |                               |            |                           |
           Sithrige                  Macha Mong Ruad        Elim                        Simeon
              |                                     Oillfinshneachta                  Breac
              |                                            |
           Rudraige 2                                     Art
      ________|______________________________           Imleach
      |       |         |         |         |              |
    Ginga   Bresal    Ross     Congal      Cas             |
      |    Bódíbad    Ruad   Clairinech     |          Breisrigh
      |                 |                   |              |
     Capa            Connra              Fachtna        Sedna 2
      |                 |                Fáthach           |
      |                 |                                  |
   Fachtna            Éllim                              Duach
      |                                                  Finn
      |                                          __________|_____________
      |                                          |                      |
     Cas                                     Muireadach                Enda
      |                                       Bolgrach                Dearg
      |                    ______________________|                      |
      |                    |                     |                      |
     Cas                Fiacha                 Duach                  Lugaid
  Trillsech            Tolgrach               Temrach                Iardonn
      |                    |               ______|______                |
      |                    |               |           |                |
   Amergin               Duach          Eochaid    Conaing           Eochaid
      |                Ladhgrach       Fiadmuine  Begeaglach        Uaircheas
      |                    |                                            |
      |                    |                                            |
   Conall               Eochaid                                      Lugaid
  Cernach               Buadach                                     Lámdearg
      |              ______|______                                      |
      |              |           |                                      |
    Irial         Úgaine    Badbchaid                                  Art
   Glunmar          Mor                                                 |
      |          ____|_________________________                         |
      |          |                            |                         |
   Fiachna    Lóegaire                     Cobthach                   Ailill
  Finnamnas     Lorc                      Cóel Breg                   Finn
      |          |                            |                         |
  Muireadach  Ailill                       Meilge                    Eochaid              (Fir Bolg)
      |        Áine                       Molbthach                     |                      |
      |          |                            |                         |                      |
  Finnchad    Labraid                      Irereo                    Lugaid                  Rinnal
      |      Loingsech                        |                      Laigde                 Dagarmag
      |          |                            |                         |                      |
 Giallchaidh   Ailill                      Connla                   Rechtaid                Erndolb
    Fionn      Bracan                       Cáem                    Rígderg                   |
      |          |                            |                         |                      |
   Cathbad    Aengus                       Ailill                   Cobthach                 Oiris
      |       Ollamh                    Caisfhiaclach                 Cáem                 Eclonnach
      |          |                            |                         |                      |
  Rochruide   Bresal                       Eochaid                   Mog Corb               Luaigne
      |        Brec                      Ailtleathan                    |                   Laidcinn
      |          |                   _________|_____________            |                      |
      |          |                   |          |          |            |                      |
     Mal      Fergus               Aengus    Ederscél    Fiacha      Fer Corb                 Tat
             Fortamail            Tuirmech   Temrach    Fer Mara        |                  Tetmanach
                 |                   |          |          |            |                      |
             Fedlimid              Enna      Conall      Ailill      Adamair                 Dichun
             Forthriun            Aignech  Collamrach    Érainn         |                  Uairidnach
                 |                   |                     |            |                      |
             Crimthann            Labraid              Feradach        Nia                  Rudraige
              Coscrach             Lorc                    |         Segamain                  |
                 |                   |                     |            |                      |
             Mog Art             Blathacht               Forga       Innatmar               Dubthach
                 |                   |                     |            |                      |
                Art               Esamain                Maine       Lugaid                 Cairbre
                 |                 Eamna                   |         Luaigne               Cinnchait
                 |                   |                     |            |
               Elloit              Rogen                Airndil      Cairbre
                 |                 Ruadh                   |          Lusc
                 |                   |                     |            |
               Nuada             Fionnloch             Roithriun      Duach
              Fullon                 |                     |       Dallta Dedad
                 |                   |                     |
              Feradach             Fionn                 Triun
               Foglas          ______|______               |
                 |             |           |               |
              Ailill        Eochaid     Eochaid         Roisin
               Glas        Feidlech      Airem             |
                 |             |                           |
               Fiacha      Findemna                       Sin
              Foibric          |                      _____|_____
                 |             |                      |         |
               Bresal       Lugaid                 Degaidh   Eochaid
                Brec      Riab nDerg                  |         |
                 |             |                      |         |
              Lugaid       Crimthann                 Iar     Deitsin
             Loithfinn      Nia Náir                  |         |
                 |             |                      |         |
               Sedna       Feradach                 Ailill   Dluthach
              Sithbac    Finnfechtnach                |         |
                 |                                    |         |
               Nuada                                Eogan     Dáire
               Necht                                  |         |
                 |                                    |         |
               Fergus                              Ederscel  Fiatach
               Fairge                                 |       Finn
                 |                                    |         |
               Rossa                               Conaire    Fiacha
               Ruadh                                 Mor    Finnfolaidh
                 |                                              |
               Fionn                                         Tuathal
                File                                        Teachtmhar
                 |                                              |
             Conchobar                                       Fedlimid
             Abradruad                                       Rechtmar
                 |                                              |
             Mog Corb                                         Conn
                 |                                         Cétchathach
             Cú Corb
                 |
             Nia Corb
                 |
              Cormac
           Gelta Gáeth
                 |
             Fedlimid
             Firurglas
                 |
              Cathair
                Mor  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bretema7 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Galician King Breogan descendant 

message: What does it mean "The Gaels take the world above, while the Tuath Dé take the world below (i.e. the Otherworld) and enter the sídhe." ? My question is about "enter the sídhe". I am not a native English speaker, but my understanding is that the sídhe are the Little People, that is, the fairies. So what the verb "enter" mean in this case? It is not a place.... Thank you in advance, and sorry for a question that maybe is considered trivial by English speakers.--Dejudicibus (talk) 16:49, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The sidhe are the "mounds" - the mostly neolithic tombs the gods/fairies were believed to have lived in. The gods/fairies were the aes sidhe, or in modern Irish aos sí, the "people of the mounds". --Nicknack009 (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've clarified this in the text.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  20:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a question 

message: We should probably include a short bit on later research, e.g. linguistic work connecting Ireland and Iberia, and genetic work that does likewise. I don't mean to lend legitimacy to the pseudo-history, but to clarify what the real connections between these two areas are vs. the medieval political fantasy ones.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  20:10, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if the sources discuss the Milesians, if not, it's original research. Doug Weller (talk) 06:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other research 

message: I'm not up on the scholarship here, but certainly there's another term for what would be history's version of ethnicity or "national" membership, or whatever concepts existed at the time. In this way I'm saying that "race" would have been a placeholder for something else, since humans don't have subspecies. I have to think the language around Milesians has evolved in the years since they were described as a race. Manys (talk) 20:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Race"