Talk:Demographic estimates of the flight and expulsion of Germans

message: The data listed by Reichling on the number of German expelee deaths is 2.020 million which includes 310,000 from the USSR. The German government estimate of 1958 was 2.1 million deaths for Eastern Europe but excluding the USSR. The two sets of data are not comprable and should be mentioned in the article.--Woogie10w 22:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So do it.  Be bold!
--Richard 04:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apples & Oranges 

message: *Rűdiger Overmans. Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Oldenbourg 2000 
Why on German source is canonical and others are ignored? BTW - the link above the table is empty.
Xx236 09:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another German sources 

message: According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung of November 14, the total number of victims of the expulsion was estimated being 473 000 (1964) or 400 000 (1974). 
Xx236 15:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  400 000 - 473 000 

message: Though you completely ignored me when I last tried to discuss your edit at Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II and I now told you to kick off a discussion if you have grievances rather just edit war the hell out of the page, I'll try to initiate a discussion again.
In reference to the NPOV tag, the article is about the finding of a number only, not pinning blame on anyone. If you want to write or see the background of the expulsion, needless to say, see "Expulsion of Germans after World War II". Since it doesn't assert a POV on who's responsible, how can this breach the Neutral Point of View? In fact, your insistence on either the pov tag or "naming who's responsible" is ironic: it is your disclaimer that clearly flies in the face of NPOV.
As for the other tag, you're declaring that the article didn't cite its references or sources. But if you make it to the bottom of the page, you'll see that it even cites both. With only a tiny percentage of Wikipedia citing sources and references of all the sentences, the implication of the tag is that there are no references and sources at all (not where some sentences aren't sourced, or the tag would be everywhere, from the articles sound (1 ref) over Poland (6 refs) to George W. Bush (161 refs)), which is untrue.
The future product tag was not meant to describe anything that may be in the future, like feelings or, as you said, "future clames and arogance", but, well, like a new car that is not on sale yet, which might undergo changes before its final version. But I presume you've let go off the tag anyway now.
What is "recent"? What time frame does it encompass? In the POV of some the newspaper from last week isn't recent anymore. In any case, you're supposed to avoid statements that will date quickly. "Recently" is even cited as an example of it. You're also to Wikipedia:avoid weasel words. Which studies? How old? What makes them more recent than, say, other studies, to a point where only they're the recent ones?
You must be referring to Overmans and Ingo Haar, two historians. Does the total number two really justify a plural expression? Anyway, let's take a look at them.
Overmans published the first edition of "Deutsche Militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg" in 1999, the second in December 2000  (see bottom of the page), the third in 2004. I doubt that it happened to be the part about the expulsion death numbers that were added with a new edition, if anything was added at all. But the fact is it must have been in there before the third one, because the post in the forum about this part was submitted in 2002. Is 2000 or, more likely, 1999 "a recent study"? 
Ingo Haar's case is no better. (Not only was his opinion controversial - the Federation of Expellees, for example, claims that he was only referring to the number of those directly murdered - but) He didn't make a study at all. All he did was say in a radio interview that 500,000 was realistic, basing this number on the studies from the late 60s ("Offenbar ist er aber in diesem Punkt nicht befragt worden, denn es gibt ja Zahlen von 1974 aus einer Studie, die damals in den späten 60er Jahren die Große Koalition aufgelegt hat"). No, I was wrong. He didn't say 500,000 was realistic - but "500,000 to 600,000". Now even the plural "recent studies" becomes questionable.
::Based on the German sentence you included, Haar didn't state he based the number on "the studies" but on one particular study launched at that time by the Grand Coalition (aus einter Studie die damals die Grosse Koalition aufgelegt hat).TheKurgan (talk) 12:34, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute

message: To Jagder et al.:
Please stop edit warring over the  template.  Let us give User:131.104.218.46 a chance to air his grievances in a more formal fashion.
To 131.104.218.46:
Please read Wikipedia policy on Neutral Point of View and specifically the guidelines on using the POV check template.  Then follow the policies and guidelines as they are laid out.  While there are a number of editors (including yourself) who have strong opinions that espouse a particular Point of View, there are others (like myself) who make a strong effort to make sure that all points of view are represented in the article and that the article truly adopts a Neutral Point of View.  If you feel that this article does not have a Neutral Point of View, it is incumbent on you to explain why.
It is not sufficient to say "That source is a German historian and therefore his results are not reliable."  Wikipedia is about verifiability not truth.  The appropriate way to challenge data given by one historian is to provide data given by another historian.  It is not for us to judge who is right and who is wrong.  What we should do is provide sufficient information for the reader to make their own decisions or, failing that, sufficient references so that the reader can do further reading and then make his/her own decision.
--Richard 22:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV check template 

message: I saw this several months ago but didn't pay much attention to it at the time.  I'm not arguing that this person (R.J. Rummel) is right.  However, it provides another perspective to consider...
R.J. Rummel Statistics Of Poland's Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources
Statistics Of Poland's Democide: Addenda
--Richard 00:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another source for estimates about Poland 

message: Bergner discusses the number of the victims of the Flight and Expulsion. Xx236 09:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  die Opfer von Flucht und Vertreibung 

message: What does de Zayas claim? Did 2,225,000 die after the war? I hardly can believe such bias, you must misquote him.Xx236 08:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2,225,000 

message: It seems that civilian workers were (all?) transferred to East Germany but POWs were liberated in 1955 after Adenauer's trip to Soviet Union.Xx236 10:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  later the survivors were transferred to East Germany 

message: The change of "displaced" to "migrating" is disingenuous.  This is not a move towards NPOV language but an attempt to avoid describing what really happened.  These Germans did not just "migrate" of their own free will.  They were expelled.  Perhaps that expulsion might have been justified but they were expelled nonetheless.  I have reverted the edit by User:. 195.56.77.182.
--Richard 00:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Displaced" vs. "migrating" 

message: I miss in this article the nummerous assasinations of Germans (in this case mostly Nazi's) after the war by the Jewish Brigade which was actively supported by the allied.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.45.96.167 (talk) 16:19, August 26, 2007 (UTC) 
How many is nummerous? 100, 1000? This article is about millions.
There took place also Jewish revenge - a number of POWs were poisoned.Xx236 08:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Jewish Brigade 

message: Notable thing about criticism of the Federal estimate, it also includes murdered Jews during the war as "victism of expulsion"--Molobo (talk) 23:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: please give a source  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.235.204 (talk) 19:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please give a source Molobo is wrong. Please register.Xx236 (talk) 11:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews murdered by Nazi Germany are counted as "expelled" 

message: The table comes from the dubious Centre against Expulsions and contains German POV, cold war accusations. The table dosan't mention US and UK as responsible for the death of tens of thousands refugees bombed in several towns. The table should be removed. Xx236 (talk) 11:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is a collection of sources for estimates. US and UK are not mentioned in the table, because the deaths are not attributed to anyone. The table just states they happened. Skäpperöd (talk) 10:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The original table does. So you quote a biased table, selecting certain numbers. Xx236 (talk) 10:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finer-grained estimates 

message: What does it mean?Xx236 (talk) 08:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asterisk in the table 

message: I doubt very much that the census included data about German POWs and prisoners in Soviet Union and other Communist countries. Xx236 (talk) 07:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  census data for 1950 

message: Noone wants to discuss this biased article. The article quotes absurd cold war propaganda from the period, when German POWs were imprisoned outside Germany. Later many of them returned.Xx236 (talk) 15:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total refusal 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RFC bot 01:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in process

message: Here is the German text of Rudiger Overmans remarks made in Warsaw in 1994 on the 1974 Archives Report. He starts out by comparing it to the Church Service documents & 1958 report. 
I have included my own translation below,(forgive me I did not use German special characters, I need to buy MS Word auf Deutsch)
Leider sind die Ergebnisse mit den beiden andern Studien nicht vollig vergleichbar, weil die UdSSR, Rumanien und  Ungaren fahlen und die Opfer des Luftkriegs nicht berucksichtigt sind.  Abgesehen von der UdSSR, die auch in der Bilanz der Vertreibung fehlt, sind die andern “Lucken” quantativ jedoch nicht gravierend. Der erste Einwand gegen eine solche Auswertung ist naturlich die Frage , ob die Berichte vollstadig sind. Es ist zumindest vorstellbar, das gerade die blutigsten 
Ereignisse erfasst sind, weil niemand sie uberlebt hat. Im Einzelfall mag dieses Argument zutreffen, die Fulle vorliegender Berichte (ca. 40,000 Dokumente) lasst es jedoch nicht vorsellbar erscheinen, das underttausende von Todesfallen unerfasst gebleiben sein sollen. Die Ergebnisse der Auswertung geben also zumindest die Grossenordung  der Verluste zuverlassig an. 
(the word underttausende appears in the text. It may well be a typo by the Polish Journal  Dzieje Najnowsze that published the article, German is not my native language, I hope a German will be able to clear this up)
Unfortunately the report(referring to 1974 Report) and the two studies( referring to the Church Service & 1958 Report)are not totally comparable, because the USSR, Romania and Hungary are missing and air raid victims not taken into consideration. The absence of the USSR, which is also missing in the Bilanz der Vertreibung, are the other gaps quantitative however not serious. The first objection against such a study is naturally the question, whether the report is complete. At least it is possible to consider, that just the bloody consequences are not covered entirely, because nobody survived. In separate cases one may present the argument, the complete report (c. 40,000 documents) remains not totally complete, that Hundreds? of thousands of cases of deaths remain not covered. The results of the study therefore are at least useful in the total coverage of casualties.
--Woogie10w (talk) 00:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overmans Remarks on 1974 Archives Report 

message: This article is in the process of expansion according to discussions at Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II and my talk. In particular, an agreement has been reached to expand the sections on the actual studies rather than just cite books mentioning the results of these studies, and to check if the figures given in this article match the figures in the references. The expansion of the studies' sections will most probably result in some re-organizing, and the article might for some time look odd until the expansion is finished and copyediting is done. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhaul 

message: Dr. Rűdiger Overmans- Personelle Verluste der deutschen Bevölkerung durch Flucht und Vertreibung.  This paper was a presentation at an academic conference in Warsaw Poland in 1994), Dzieje Najnowsze Rocznik XXI-1994
Here is a brief summary of the main points of the article in English, if other editors need further details, I can provide the exact German text and my translation into English.
*Overmans starts out by remarking that the reported deaths of 2 million Germans is taken seriously in Germany, a moral issue.
*Overmans says sources WW2 Casualties are not all in agreement, including figures on the expulsions.
*Overmans outlines the definitions used for the word “Vertreibung” in Germany.
*Overmans then goes into the details sources used for Investigations
*In 1950 the first attempts were made to register the names of the dead and missing, they established about 3 million persons including military dead.
*In 1953 the German government set up a Search Service that would investigate losses. The concept behind the Search Service was to establish the identity of each person.
*Overmans then provides a detailed table with figures on the losses in the Church Service Report.
**The figures included 473,016 confirmed dead and 1,905,991 missing civilians
**The issue of who was actually a German in the figures is not clear
**The Search Service was not coordinated with the separate investigation of military deaths
**Information from the GDR was not complete
**The reported losses were "too low" because they relied only on newspaper reports of deaths
**Data on those deported to the USSR was incomplete
**The cases of reported missing is not reliable
**All we can say for sure is that the Search Service could confirm c. 500,000 dead
*He then mentions that the Schieder commission did not investigate the numbers of dead
*Overmans points out that the 1958 Bilanz der Vertreibung which is based on the work of the Church Service is the most imoprtant source regarding figures on losses.
**The 1958 Bilanz der Vertreibung has mathamatical errors
**The 1958 Bilanz der Vertreibung figures include persons of doubtfull German ethnic origin
**The  1958 Bilanz der Vertreibung figures overestimate who was "German"
**Military losses were estimated and too low
**Figures for those Expellees living in GDR were only estimated
*Overall the results of the  Search Service and the 1958 Bilanz der Vertreibung are not conclusive and definitive.
*Overmnans then goes on to outline the 1974 Archives study
**He found the results of this study to be incomplete and not definitive(see full text of his comments above)
*In summation Overmans says German research can only confirm 500,000 of the reportrd 2 million dead.
*He then outlines his current research to establish the number of German military dead.
*Overmans then suggests a new joint Polish-German investigation to study the losses.
I can provide additional details if needed--Woogie10w (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overmans Report in Warsaw in 1994 

message: Thank you Skapperod, Very good work. I can't wait for the mail from Germany with my copy of the book.
What do they say about Czechoslovikia? How did they derive the nr of 130,000?--Woogie10w (talk) 20:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, I will add the missing stuff in about half an hour, as time permits. Unfortunately, I was not able to add it all in one run. The report has another two chapters on ČSR and Yugoslavia which need to be summarized. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not so the Joint German-Czech Commission put the death toll at 15,000 to 30,000 , We cant use Wikipedia as a source. That is what the Commission reported it is clear to see, Wikipedia is wrong.We cannot change the actual number reported by the Commission 15-30,0000.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

text: That is mentioned in the article.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details 1974 Report 

message: Not only Soviet, the refugees were bombed by the USAAF and RAF, see Bombing of Dresden in World War II, :de:Luftangriff auf Swinemünde, Bombing of Königsberg in World War II.
Xx236 (talk) 08:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  died during evacuation due to Soviet military operations 

message: The article says 12, I haven't found any other number. Xx236 (talk) 12:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The 1974 German Archives report documenting war crimes against Germans in Eastern Europe is a reliable source that cannot be ignored, excused away or censored from history. It is not right wing nationalist propaganda, it documents historical fact.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:03, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Who exactly censors or ignores something? Any sources? As far this article as several others impose BdV POV - mixing war and post-war events, German Nazi crimes, Soviet crimes, common criminality. Are there any other such "projects" in this Wikipedia?Xx236 (talk) 11:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Xx236, I know that you are a sincere person who edits in good faith, since you read Polish you can make a valuable contribution to the project by including the findings of Polish scholars on this controversial topic. The following two books may provide valuable information for us.
*Stanisław Jankowiak, Wysiedlenie i emigracja ludności niemieckiej w polityce władz polskich w latach 1945-1970, , Instytut Pamięci Narodowej, Warszawa 2005, 
*Gawryszewski, Andrzej. Ludność Polski w XX wieku.Warszawa : Instytut Geografii i Przestrzennego Zagospodarowania im. Stanisława Leszczyckiego PAN, 2005
We all need to use reliable sources and work together to improve Wikipedia--Woogie10w (talk) 15:09, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

text: As I have written Gawryszewski is available as pdf to anyone, he uses sometimes very old censored sources (1960) so don't expect much. Jankowiak is available only in several libraries and I'm not able to visit such a library and take notes or ask a copy of maybe 100 pages. Xx236 (talk) 07:36, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Estimates of the number of displaced Germans vary in the range of 12.0-16.5 million 

message: Xx236 wrote: "As far this article as several others impose BdV POV - mixing war and post-war events, German Nazi crimes, Soviet crimes, common criminality. Are there any other such "projects" in this Wikipedia?"
Xx236, I'm not sure what you're asking.  There is an article titled Soviet war crimes.  Perhaps we should have an article titled Soviet war crimes in Poland.  What do you think? --Richard S (talk) 21:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmmm... there is clearly argument for the creation of a number of articles with titles such as Soviet war crimes in Poland, Nazi war crimes in Poland, Soviet campaign to exterminate and expel Poles 1939-1956, Nazi campaign to exterminate  and expel Poles or something along those lines.  Now, I was going to object to the specific title Extermination and expulsion of Poles 1939-1956 because it melds together two separate phenomena (to wit, the Nazi efforts and the Soviet efforts) which were basically independent of each other with the exception of the Hitler-Stalin pact.  However, upon reflection, I realize that one could make a similar argument about the expulsion of Germans at the end of World War II.  In some sense, the expulsions were considered by the Allies and sanctioned (sort of) by them.  On the other hand, the expulsions were implemented more or less independently in each country.  Are you sincerely arguing for a unified article scope such as Extermination and expulsion of Poles 1939-1956 or is that just a rhetorical device to argue against having a unified treatment of the expulsions of Germans across several European countries after World War II? --Richard S (talk) 23:11, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet war crimes 

message: A number of refugees died in Dresden.Xx236 (talk) 12:02, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out, I know it to be true. About 40 years ago I knew a German woman who was being evacuated from Silesia, her train was delayed outside of Dresden that day, she saw the city go up in flames!--Woogie10w (talk) 10:57, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Bombing of Dresden]] 

message: Either none or all sources should be listed. This selection is POV.Xx236 (talk) 09:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources - POV 

message: The book Vertreibung und Aussiedlung der deutschen Bevölkerung aus Polen 1945-1949 by Nitschke is at the NY Public Library. I have requested this book and will verifify the edits that cite this book--Woogie10w (talk) 12:48, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a copy of the relevant portion of the book Vertreibung und Aussiedlung der deutschen Bevölkerung aus Polen 1945-1949 by Nitschke - The section needs to be corrected and updated.--Woogie10w (talk) 20:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source will be verified 

message: In order to maintain a balanced  NPOV I have updated the list of sources so that it now includes scholarly sources in Polish and those sources in German and English that discuss recent research on the topic by scholars. The list also includes those older German government sources that are currently being disputed. In my opinion we should use scholarly secondary sources and avoid those tertiary sources that are written from the POV of political propaganda. --Woogie10w (talk) 17:40, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources List Update 

message: The lede states "The deaths of about 500,000 to 600,000 are verified; estimates derived with the population balance method put the death toll at about two million."
The thing is that most (all?) modern historians don't buy the numbers implied by the outdated (and flawed) "population balance method" - the consensus seems to be converging to something like what the "verified" numbers suggest. But this lede suggests that in fact 2 million died but only half a million have been verified. This is misleading. 500,000-600,000 have been verified and that's probably the actual death toll.VolunteerMarek 18:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the point you raise is a problem.  However, the assertion "500,000-600,000 have been verified and that's probably the actual death toll." is a POV and we, as Wikipedia editors, should not take sides.  The lead should provide the full range of estimates with some indication as to what the current range of estimates is.  We could say something like "In the latter half of the 20th century, estimates of deaths have ranged as high as 2-3 million.  After the breakup of the Soviet Union, new data became available which caused historians such as Overmans, Haar, Hahn and Hahnova to revise these estimates downward to 500,000 to 1 million.  However, the German government's official estimate remains 2 million."  (NB: I haven't taken the time to get these numbers exact.  We would want to replace the round numbers with numbers that represent actual figures rather than the hand-waving numbers presented here.) --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 19:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the concern about POV and not taking sides. I'm also concerned with giving a skewed view of current state of research on the subject. In fact, your suggested wording is exactly the kind of thing I think it should say.VolunteerMarek 21:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Right. So out of these, 1, 2, and 3 are "old". The 1974 figure is "in between" both in terms of its vintage and its estimate. Reichling, 6, is somewhat recent, at least more than 1, 2, and 3, but per your comment he is regarded by other contemporary researchers as just rehashing the flawed "old" figures. Nawratil is WP:FRINGE. This leaves Overmans (who wants new research) but currently is closer to the half-million number, and Harr and Hahn, as the recent estimates. VolunteerMarek 21:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No eyewitnesses in Europe? It's not a desert.Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

text: But this does not necessarily validate the "population balance method" as is implied in the lede. See Richard's comment above for something like what it should say.VolunteerMarek 21:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure? 3 million of the 5.6 are Jewish. Which numbers aren't verified - the Jewish or the gentile?  Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

text: German government finances the SVFF foundation in Berlin, which has recently published http://www.dhm.de/sfvv/docs/Conceptual%20framework%20SFVV.pdf . Xx236 (talk) 06:34, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for posting that, we can use it to improve articles on WW2 era expulsions, not only Germans--Woogie10w (talk) 12:19, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  misleading lede 

message: Removed the "" from around the word methodology in the section regarding population balance.  The "" indicated to me a derision of the method that slanted NPOV.  An encyclopedic text should not influence opinion but instead allow the presented data to speak for itself.TheKurgan (talk) 12:20, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Mehtodology

message: My english wikipedia version mentioned the polemic attacs on me by the historian Martin Broszart of the Munich Institute of Contemporary History, but did not mention that he was rebuked and cautioned by the Bavarian State Government which is the supervisory athority of this institute, see the original letter on Heinz Nawratil`s home page. .Kunibert 2Kunibert 2 (talk) 17:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Government as a source of the Highest Truth, the super-Academy? Xx236 (talk) 06:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The letter posted on Heinz Nawratil`s home page does not mention Nawratil or Broszat by name, it was dated 3 April 1985. The remarks of Martin Broszat of the Munich Institute of Contemporary History were published in 1987. The two are not directly related. In this case, what should we do as editors of Wikipedia? Tell me please.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Critisism by Dr. Heinz Nawratil

message: Does the section describe the same cemetery or two separate ones?Xx236 (talk) 08:44, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: About 500 victims of the raid were identified and buried close to the entrance of the Golm War Cemetery and the remaining dead were buried in mass graves. The estimated number of victims, including residents of Swinemünde who were also encompassed by the expulsions, varies from about 5,000 to 23,000. The German War Graves Commission estimates that 20,000 victims are buried at the cemetery with further burials within the town limits.1958 the West German Government demographic study of expellee deaths estimated the total civilian dead in the East Pommerian  region due to Anglo-American air raids after 1/31/45 at 8,000.Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50. Herausgeber: Statistisches Bundesamt - Wiesbaden. - Stuttgart: Verlag W. Kohlhammer, 1958 p. 113
Xx236 (talk) 11:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

text: My point is that the original section suggests there are two cemeteries and I want to rephrase, see above. The cememtery article should be linked when mentioned for the first time.Xx236 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

text: http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,14699758,Koniec_z_falszowaniem_prawdy_o_V_2__Zbrodniczy_projekt.html Xx236 (talk) 11:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allied Strategic Bombing 

message: This article doesn't discuss NKVD special camps (which existed also outside Germany).Xx236 (talk) 08:44, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[NKVD special camps in Germany 1945–49]] 

message: Well the article defines "expulsion people" as German nationals of various ethnicities and ethnic Germans,so is that means the "Germans"（7 million from former eastern territories）here are actually ethnic poles of German citizens fled to now germany after war? because I've read that the number of ethnic poles are More than ethnic Germans in the Eastern Province.（Don't know if is true)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nero011 (talk • contribs) 11:28, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You wrote " I've read that the number of ethnic poles are More than ethnic Germans in the Eastern Province.（Don't know if is true)" Please cite a source for this observation.  On Wikipedia we need to support our edits with reliable sources. --Woogie10w (talk) 11:52, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

text: People were expelled for being of German ethnicity and speaking German, so I wonder how people come up to the idea to speak about Poles.. The People of Lower Silesia, East Brandenburg, Pomerania and Danzig were expelled nearly completely, because they were inhabited mostly by Germans. And the Province of Posen and West Prussia were not part of Eastern Germany / eastern territories since 1919.. --Jonny84 (talk) 15:06, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There were Polish activists in Germany Union of Poles in Germany#Structure and number of members and bilingual people, who generally left Poland either during the Expulsion or later. Many of them spoke both dialects, so they were criticized both in Poland and in Germany.Xx236 (talk) 11:50, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germans from former eastern territories of Germany 

message: I don't know how to reference, so I don't criticise. However our list repeats the same texts, compare to WWII.Xx236 (talk) 11:39, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Demographic estimates of the flight and expulsion of Germans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018004836/http://www.igipz.pan.pl:80/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf to http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111018004836/http://www.igipz.pan.pl:80/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf to http://www.igipz.pan.pl/zpz/Political_migrations.pdf
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:46, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :The map doesn't explain history nor ethnic composition of the lost areas.
:The map shows only lands assigned to Poland and Russia. Bohemia was a part of Austria and later some of the ethnic Germans run away or were expelled to Austria. So the map should be moved to Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II.Xx236 (talk) 09:14, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The map - several problems 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Demographic estimates of the flight and expulsion of Germans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090802025300/http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles/?id=59 to http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles?id=59
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110722000000/http://www.tschechien-portal.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=134 to http://www.tschechien-portal.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=134
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:33, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified