Talk:Natasha Demkina/Archive 1

message: Despite being warned, Wikipedia continues to allow Julio Siqueira to post libelous statements. I am no more under psychiatric care than I have a "phony" degree from Columbia University.  I thought the Wikipedia community would be more careful about allowing people to publish libelous material following the recent news media attention it received over another incident. Some here apparently think that it's o.k. to allow defamatory material to be posted, because you can always unring the bell.  They're wrong. U.S. libel laws recognize that once rung a bell cannot be unrung. Askolnick 13:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Allowing Libel to Be Published

message: A request for Mediation was just filed.
.
Askolnick 21:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation

message: Mr. Siqueira is hardly "doing a truly rational, scientific, and socially beneficial work." What he is doing is practicing character assassination through deceit -- such as deleting the M.S. after my name in this Wikipedia entry and accusing me of having a "phony" degree. Columbia University awarded me a Masters of Science degree in 1981. No one has ever accused me of possessing phony academic credentials -- until now. This is typical of Siqueria's "spotting mistakes and setting out bravely and honestly to correct them." His tactic is to make up accusations -- which he attributes to the ever-anonymous "critics" -- and demands that the "controversy" he has created be debated.  
For more than a year, Julio Siquiera has been conducting a campaign of disinformation and defamation against me and my fellow researchers, who carried out the test of Natasha Demkina for the Discovery Channel program, "The Girl with X-ray Eyes."  Siqueira begun his campaign by contacting me through email and pretending to be honestly seeking answers to questions about the test. I didn't realize for several weeks that his real intent was to gather statements that he could misquote for a campaign of defamation. I soon found out that, while he was sending me email calling me his "dear friend," he was writing a fellow Brazilian boasting of how he "peed on" that "moron Skolnick"  and that Richard Wiseman "is a big crook" and a bastard ("calhorda").
One egregious example utterly misrepresented my answer to his question how far Natasha was from the test subjects. He rewrote my answer and sent it around to some of our critics in his campaign to make me out to be a liar.  My answer to him had been,  "I had deliberately placed the subjects' chairs in a semicircle around the chair Ms. Demkina would sit in. That was about two meters from each subject. Of course, when she would stand to study the subjects, she came a foot or so closer."
He deleted any mention of Natasha's chair being two meters from the subjects and selectively quoted some of my words, while changing "closer" to "close."  He said I told him Natasha "was allowed to come close to the subjects" and that she "sometimes came 'a foot or so' close to them." At the time, he was alleging that we made Natasha stand too far from the subjects to be able to see them clearly.  By deliberately misquoting me, he clearly was trolling for a statement from others that he could use to accuse me of lying about how close Natasha actually got to the subjects.
The Wikipedia entry for Natasha Demkina has been written by a number of contributors including myself. Siqueira has now seriously vandalized it with falsehoods and unfounded personal opinions, such as these and other unsupported accusations:
 "Skolnick has made very imprecise reports about Natasha’s claims."  
"Richard Wiseman convinced Natasha to accept these two alien conditions above using technically flawed and logically incorrect reasoning, which some say was meant to deceive Natasha."
"One of the subjects seemed to have a leak in his eyes’ mask, which also violated the protocols."
"The subjects never showed any proof of their alleged clinical conditions, also violating the protocols (not even the researchers really know if they indeed had the conditions they claimed to have)."
"(even though only the researchers knew of the controversy regarding the cut-off value for statistical significance)"
There was no controversy regarding the agreed upon level of statistical significance. It was agreed upon by all parties without a question. By claiming controversy, Siqueira believes he can create controversy.  
Many other statements are clearly false, such as, "Demkina tried to say something further, which was understood by Skolnick as an insistence that appendixes sometimes do grow back in Russia; but actually her phrase was cut by Skolnick before she even finished it." This is false. The video tape of the Discovery Channel program I have clearly shows Natasha arguing that in Russia appendixes sometimes grow back following an appendectomy. 
Here's an example of Siqueira's attempts to hide the truth by adding the words "in the skeptics' opinion" to a statement that is more truthful without his malicious tampering: "She only matched four correctly, thereby failing the test in the skeptics’ opinion."' Natasha failed the test according to the written test rules which everyone had agreed to. The test said that Natasha needed to match at least five of the target conditions correctly to pass. She failed the test because she correctly matched only four. That's not an opinion. It's a fact on the record. 
To refute my account of how Natasha gave me a reading that failed to find any of the medical problems I do have while claiming to see many others, none of which my doctor or I know about, Siqueira simply insinuates that I'm lying: "The critics point out, however, that, strangely enough, neither Skolnick nor any other one of the skeptics present had even a tape recorder to keep trustworthy register of this episode. They warn that in other situations Skolnick has made very imprecise reports about Natasha’s claims and about other people’s too." Those "critics" are none other than Siqueira himself. What would have been strange would my having a tape recorder to record a "psychic" medical reading, when I had no idea Natasha was going to approach me and ask to give me a reading to demonstrate her abilities after she failed the test. My account is supported by notes taken by Joe Nickell, Ph.D., CSICOP's leading investigator. 
In addition, Siqueira has introduced numerous lessor errors based on ignorance or incompetence into the Wikipedia entry  -- such as claiming that Natasha was given seven cards. As has been well documented in the Discovery Channel program and in published reports, there were only six cards in the test. And his claim that the surgical scars which result from removal of the lower part of a person's esophagus are "minute" is nonsense.
Siqueira's statements about the position of the appendix are absolutely irrelevant and clearly meant to mislead. He cites his reference [http://www.ghchealth.com/health-conditions/appendicitis/, but leaves out the part that explains how variations in the exact position of the appendix may make it difficult to diagnose appendicitis, based on where the patient feels pain. It does not make it difficult to find the appendix either by x-ray or by direct visualization (ie. surgery). The subhead of the article shows how Siqueria is trying to pull the wool over Wiki readers' eyes: "Why Can It Be Difficult to Diagnose Appendicitis?". It doesn't say, "Why Is It Difficult to Find the Appendix?".
It doesn't matter where the distal end of the appendix lies because Natasha was instructed to look for the site where the small intestine joins the large intestine. That's where the appendix is attached. Whether the internal organs of a person are reversed (ie. heart is on the right side, appendix on the left), the appendix is always found next to junction of the small and large intestines -- except in people who no longer have their appendix.
Harder to deal with are the many unsupported opinions Siqueira added to prop up his defamatory claim that we are incompetent liars. For example, he replaced the original account with his deceitful speculation that Natasha's mother's decision to wait outside the test room was "probably due to the emotional discomfort of this embarrassing and emotionally stressing beginning." Siqueira must know that this is false because he has a copy of email from Natasha's agent Will Stewart in which he explains that the mother chose to wait outside the test room so her young daughter would not be left alone in a strange place. It was unreasonable to expect an 11-year-old girl to sit silently for more than four hours. That's why the mother chose to wait with the young child outside the test room where the girl could talk and play -- not because she fled from the room in emotional distress. Siqueira knows the truth, but when the truth does not serve his agenda, he ignores it, substitues his "opinion," and demands that the "controversy" be debated.
There's many more dubious and deceitful statements that Siqueira added to the entry. If you want me to correct them too, I will, but it will take much more space and time. 
But perhaps the most audacious of his claims is his citing his own web pages as, "Meticulous and thorough critiques of the experiment [that] can also be found on the internet." He doesn't bother to inform Wiki readers that he is the author of those self-published, so-called meticulous and thorough critiques. Those "critiques" are no more meticulous than is his malicious adulteration of the Wikipedia article.
Recently, the credibility of Wikipedia suffered a serious black eye when the news media reported how someone had used a Widipedia entry to libel another party. If Wikipedia doesn't put a stop to the dishonest use of what otherwise is a worthwhile medium and information resource, it will likely become as useless as the human appendix and just as prone to purulent infections.
24.51.86.237 [Askolnick] 02:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: )For an excellent article about how Wikipedia was used to defame a former jounalist and a discussion of legal remedies to prevent such abuse, see the just published article in Findlaw: )Askolnick 20:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, there's a really fine Wiki entry for Bayesian inference!  I must return to it when I have the time to learn much more about this rather arcane subject -- which really is vital to understanding many kinds of scientific tests. For example, as the excellent article points out, one cannot properly evaluate the sensitivity and specicity of diagnostic tests without Bayesian analysis.Askolnick 20:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Skolnick on Siquiera

message: Gentlemen, given a dispute of this nature, I would recommend you solicit outside comment from the following places first:
*Wikipedia:Request for comments (try here first)
*Wikipedia:Peer review
These pages are visited by volunteers in the hope that those with relevant understanding of the details can come to this page and contribute comments to the matter. Fundamentally this is a dispute over article content that Mr. Skolnick disagrees with, aside from the fact that he finds them personally detrimental.
Your next step would be to purse mediation through Wikipedia:Requests for Mediation.
Presumably each of you can provide materials that support your positions. These would be helpful.
Mr. Skolnick: I strongly recommend that you create a Wikipedia account for yourself via this page, so that you can be consistently identified during discussions and other proceedings.
Regards,
Keith D. Tyler ¶, AMA 19:59, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made the request at WP:RFP. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 18:44, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I am not an administrator but I would support that decision. I would even support reverting the article back to that reversion and working with Mr. Siqueira to address the parts he feel are inaccurate. Have a couple neutral parties with Mr. Skolnick's feedback should help to maintain a NPOV. Edwardian 22:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: [Sorry Edwardian, I don't know how it happened, but I must have deleted that graph when I added the Protesting the Resolution Procedures section.]  
24.51.86.237 (Andrew Skolnick) 12:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resolution procedures 

message: After reviewing the amount of work I would have to do to explain why nearly all of Siqueira changes to this entry are false, misleading, or otherwise violate Wiki policies, I want to protest the resolution procedures, which I think have turned the world on its head.  As in science, it should be the claimaint's responsibility to provide verification of his claims.
Siqueira admits above that he deliberately added a false statement to this entry in anger because I had corrected the entry to make it less misleading.  Siqueira has never been employed in any field of science. He's an elementary school English teacher. I replaced his misleading statement with a more truthful one. He says that's why he added a defamatory lie to Wikipedia -- claiming that I've faked my academic credentials. (What's more, padding references with biographical comments is completely out of place. References are supposed to have only the author's name and not include prizes won or personal hobbies.)
: Just for your information, I followed the discussion and I think that the above paragraph doesn't sound right to me. Sequeira admitted that it was an emotional reaction, so there is no need to insist on that. A more important concern is that you continue on your side to ignore his degree. Lumiere 05:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An even more important concern is that you continue to attack the individual instead of addressing the real issues. It really does not help your case. Lumiere 05:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Keith and Edwardian, please, as far as I am concerned, feel free to take any action you consider apropriate. My only concern is that wikipedia listens to my point of view and to my feedbacks, and then decide whether they belong here in the entry or not. And that is already happening, that is, you are dealing very seriously and professionally with the matter. I cannot ask for more than that. Thank you. During this day I have gathered lots of material that can be regarded as more authoritative to help me support my "case". I will present this as soon as possible. If I delay it a little, it is because I am also trying to work on conciseness, which will help you (and us) enormously in evaluating things faster and better. I also want to get to know more about wikipedia policies, following the links and suggestions that you provided. Julio Siqueira 22:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protesting the Resolution Procedures

message: Having read what Edwardian wrote above (and knowing that he has read my first reply to his original paragraph - he has now rewritten it, with some minor modifications), I now quit all editing involvement in the entry "Natasha Demkina" at Wikipedia. I strongly recommend that the editors remove my original contributions, and that they think about the appropriateness of my feedbacks on this matter, so that they can decide for themselves whether to include them at the entry or not (in part or whole). I thank very much Edwardian (and Keith) for their patience and dedication on this matter, and congratulate Wikipedia in its effort to create a fast and free yet trustworthy source of information on the web. Julio Siqueira 21:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Julio Siqueira Withdraws from Editing 

message: Hi Keith and everybody. I am starting this section in the talk page to input my feedbacks to the entry. Feel free to use them the way you consider appropriate. You, and everybody, is of course welcome to directly append any of your comments to mine.Julio Siqueira 14:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment Number 1: Keith, I have now read the entry the way you rewrote it. I think it is quite acceptable, some parts of it being nearly perfect indeed. Surely I will have very few suggestions. I will have some comments (feedbacks) to it, and to this talk page too, later on. Best Regards. Julio Siqueira 14:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments and Suggestions by Julio Siqueira 

message: I've partially rewritten the article, taking into consideration the content added by both Skolnick and Siquiera, based on long-scale diffs. I did not integrate any external information. I did make some rewords that were inferred from combinations of details among the edits. I took pains to remove POV, biased, or even content that showed bias in tone, focus, or reinforcement.
Remember I said at the beginning that I was not taking any side in the matter. What insights I have gained on this topic from this process remain my own. To be honest, it was somewhere in between the positions of the two disputants here.
I would ask that both of you contribute your concerns about the current version to the Talk page, and refrain from editing the main page from now on. This request has less to do with the fact that you are primary sources (or at least closely involved with the topic) but the fact that you are disputants over its content, and it is best to bring your disputes to the side, rather than take the conflict out on the main article.
I am going to update my request for protection to the version I just wrote.
Regards,
Keith D. Tyler ¶ 23:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Keith. As I had already said before (even before, strangely, Skolnick posted his protest against the mediation...), I fully support measures like this one that you are taking, aiming to guarantee neutral point of view and trustworthy information (I said that half an hour before Skolnick added the "Protesting the Resolution Procedures" section). And I stopped making any changes to the entry "Natasha Demkina" from the moment the dispute started. Only now did I see the so many changes that Skolnick made to the entry AFTER the dispute began. Unbelieveble. And Shameful (but, unfortunately, typical of his conduct). I will contribute with suggestions to the entry (the way you reworked it) as soon as possible, and congratulate you, Edwardian, and Wikipedia for the attempt (highly successful, I believe) of making a trustworthy and informative source of information on the web. Julio Siqueira 11:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: Protected the page. Work it out. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 23:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: Sorry - just temporary measure, see my reply at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Posting emailed content disputes --Francis Schonken 21:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letter 

message: Should read
:Natasha Demkina (Наталья Демкина) (198?-), called "The Girl with X-ray Eyes," is a teenage alleged medical psychic from Saransk, Russia. Demkina claims to possess a special vision that allows her to look inside human bodies and see organs and tissues, and thereby make medical diagnoses. Believers of her power claim these diagnoses are often more accurate than those of doctors. She has appeared on television shows in the United Kingdom and, more recently, in a documentary for the Discovery Channel titled "The Girl with X-Ray Eyes" where she was asked to demonstrate her claims. After the latter demonstration, researchers rejected the likelihood of her having such an ability, though her believers criticize the methods and conclusions of the researchers.
Geni 15:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: opening paragraph

message: :The parameters and conclusions of the test have been criticized by believers of paranormal abilities, and the prior bias of the research team has been questioned.
Needs a source
:The work in this particular field by these researchers has drawn much criticism from other paranormal investigators, particularly believers.
Source? Names of critics?
Geni 15:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide references point by point.Geni 16:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The CSMMH-CSICOP test

message: :The researchers' basis for including these (as well as the other) conditions was reportedly from third-party descriptions of her ability as being able to see organs inside the body.
reportedly? Source?
Geni 15:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment of abilities

message: Every part of this sention needs sourceing.Geni 15:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The appendectomy candidate

message: This needs sourceing.Geni 15:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inconclusive conclusion

message: This needs sourceing.Geni 15:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Other irregularities and questions

message: Since I have suddenly found myself to be a disputant over the article content, I am refraning from further editing of it for the time being (FWIW it is still under protection ATM). I never intended to make a perfect article, merely one that approached proper NPOV and avoided the earlier charges of Libel. This not being satisfactory to all parties, I am soliciting more eyes. I have posted a request for help in a number of other articles related to paranormal research. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refraining 

message: I think this article has issues with false balance. She was tested according to parameters she and her handlers agreed to. She failed. We should be done already.  According to Wikipedia policy, we aren't obliged to include every extremist position on every subject. I do think a better way to organize it would be a Point/Counterpoint list concerning individual criticisms of the test itself. I do urge participants to not take things personally. And I do think that the word libel has been bandied about far too much lately. I hope everyone realizes that libel only applies if you can prove a detrimental effect of the alleged libelous content. --DocJohnny 23:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, DocJohnny. The article is giving undue prominence to a certain viewpoint. The goalposts have been constantly moving since the tests. I have been wondering if what this article is more of need of is a complete rewrite, stripping the whole thing down to a bare-bones biography, and merely commenting on the controversy. As the article currently stands, it's overlong and the sort of page that no-one would want to read. --BillC 00:10, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *DocJohnny, I fully disagree with you, and I fully agree with BillC: You wrongly say that Natasha "was tested according to parameters she and her handlers agreed to.". She was not. You wrongly say that Natasha "failed the test". She did not. Did you read the material here at Wikipedia explaining all this. If not, why not? I could go over it for the thousandth time, but what I stress is that my conclusions do not come from the believers' point of view (I am not a believer in Natasha). My conclusions come from the published articles by the "researchers", skeptics actually, in their own private journal: Skeptical Inquirer. Also, from the information in their private webpage: CSMMH. And from the broadcast final official version of the documentary made by Discovery Channel. So you are badly wrong when you say "we aren't obliged to include every extremist position on every subject.". First, because this is precisely what Wikipedia has been doing... That is, some wikipedians, especially MS Skolnick, have been using this entry as a way to express their extremist and unbased point of view. Second, you are badly wrong because what I am proposing is that the fair and proper view be shown. How can you, or anyone, claim that she "failed the test" if the rules of the test were actually not followed? (rules to which she agreed). They attempted to exclude her mother from the test room (violating their own protocols), and they did it in a rather brute way, according to program producer Monica Garnsey; they presented two clinical conditions that clearly seemed beyond her actual claims as identified by the researchers; they convinced her to accept these two off-the-cuff conditions using technically and logically flawed reasoning, and in such a way that most judges would consider that from that point on she was agreeing to be tested not on seven conditions but on five conditions only; the "subjects" (those who had clinical conditions that Natasha was trying to identify) never showed any proof of their alleged clinical conditions. All this, against the test rules. What do you think of this? Well, I will tell you what I think of this, and what I told Skolnick. I said, Skolnick, if you really think this sloppy test that you did was in any way "scientific", then send it for publication in some prestigious scientific jounal. State in the "material and methods" section that "We presented to her seven subjects, each one of with a clinical conditon for her to identify; we do not have the least idea if they in fact had these conditions, for they did not show us any proof of it whatsoever, and they were not even properly screened for, since we ended up having two guys claiming to have had their appendix removed". Let's see if it gets published... Not even in Uri Geller's site...  But I fully agree with BillC. I think this entry has to be brought back to its bare bones conditions. Only a very brief description of who Natasha is, what is said about her claims, and some brief comment on the controversy over her alleged powers.Julio Siqueira 10:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine. Please write such an article. --BillC 10:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I protest against this libel above from Skolnick. I never placed in public that I "piss on that moron Skolnick". Skolnick has said many lies against me, just because I am from a poor country with poor resources, and that I will most likely not be able to win a lawsuit against him if I try to start one (an international and complicated and expensive one). He has also repeatedly, even here at the wikipedia, humiliated my MA title in clinical bacteriology (a third world MA title...). Because he has contact with people with some power (CSICOPers and JAMA), he thinks he has the right to say as many libel as he wants. He has repeatedly taken out of the wikipedia my MA title. Also, he claims that I am no biologist, which is a lie from him too. Nevertheless, judging himself a king, he does not care to any protests from me... I took once his MS title from wikipedia, and soon after I myself placed it back. I called it a phoney MS title, meaning that the holder is a phoney MS (a phoney Magister Scientiae), not that the institution that gave it was phoney (that is, even though he is not a phoney MS, he behaves as such in my opinion...). He said that I had called Wiseman a bastard, which I never did, and against which I had already protested in the forum Museum of the Hoaxes, so he has no excuse to use this faulty translation of the term I used against Wiseman. Libels from Skolnick will never end, it seems. I suggest that he sues Wikipedia for allowing his own libels to be posted... Julio Siqueira 09:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  False Balance 

message: I agree with those above that this article fails the NPOV test, and quite severely. The majority of this article are EXTREMELY biased. The fact that parties involved in this event are trying to influence the article and making false legal threats here is just ridiculous. 
So here's the deal:
1) If you are personally involved in this case, GET THE HECK OFF THIS ARTICLE. You are too close to it to be objective. We take Wikipedia:Neutral point of view very seriously here, not to mention your presense here violated rules against self-promotion, soap-boxing and etcetera. Editors should also not directly contact those involved, as that's clearly original research, which is prohibitted.
2) If you want to make legal threats, GET OFF WIKIPEDIA before you get kicked off. See Wikipedia:No legal threats. Note that that's whether these threats are fake (as most of these are... what a bunch of nonsense I see here) or real. Even if you have a case, which you don't, but even if you do, you are not allowed to make threats here. Talk to a lawyer and have them contact Wikimedia Inc. 
3) The shorter the article is, the more objective it can be. Each time you go into some detail, all the different sides are just going to want to screech about it.
4) We really have to clean up those external links. We cannot put a description claiming that someone can sue somebody, as that looks like Wikipedia is of that opinion. Wikipedia has no opinions. Call it "So and so's website" or whatever.
5) Let me stress again: Wikipedia has no opinions. The article should just be, there is this girl, she claims so and so, she was tested, the people who ran the tests said so and so, other people complained about the tests... as everyone who was ever tested for psychic abilities and failed always does. We don;t need to go into all the detail from the people complaining about the tests, as they agreed to the tests (and shut up about this crap that yo didn't, of course you did, that's how these tests work, you agree beforehand) and badmouthing them later may be expected but shouldn't take up the bulk of the article. That's just sour grapes.
Now, do we need a bullwhip here or what? Because the actions above and the article itself are simply inexcusible.
:: [I've confirmed from page history that the text above is from DreamGuy 12:14, 16 December 2005, as Julio Siqueira correctly surmises just below -- Steve Summit (talk) 02:12, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi DreamGuy I think what you said above is almost perfect. I just think that you overlooked the fact that the rules to which Natasha accepted were actually violated in many ways by the researchers themselves. Most important of these are the facts that the subjects never showed proof of their alleged clinical conditions, and that the researchers issued terminal verdicts on Natasha's alleged powers; both of these items are strongly against the rules that were provided by the researchers themselves (it seems we do need a bullwhip to get people to understand it, despite its being so very simple...). But I think that despite this, let's put it this way, flaw in your exposition, what you said above is highly sane and constructive, and it paves the way to a happy ending in this entry Natasha Demkina. Julio Siqueira 02:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Some sanity needed

message: To all parties. It is my intention to ask that the main article be unblocked. I intend to place in it an article essentially the same as I posted at Proposed new version, after taking on board the small amendment proposed by Steve Summit. I would also recommend inserting a one-sentence description of the test: "The test required Demkina to match volunteers against specified medical conditions". This will go at the end of the paragraph currently ending with "(CSMMH)". The final sentence about her no longer carrying out readings should probably go, as any evidence and references for it are not strong.
I thought carefully about the possibility of adding more external links as references, and my view is that it is in the wider interest to not include any more. I will repeat my request to have the content of this talk page removed from online access some time after the main article is unlocked and a 'stable' version placed there, though I acknowledge that that may not be everyone's desire. That decision will be in the purview of the Wikipedia administrators.  --BillC 17:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi BillC. I support what you said above. I stress again that I will not anymore (till doomsday) edit this entry Natasha Demkina, following the recommendations of wikipedians mediators (you will never see from me something like those 29 desperate changes done by Skolnick at the dead of the night...). I will make only some brief and point suggestions to the entry as it gets changed. Julio Siqueira 19:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for unprotection 

message: For an example of where NPOV does not assume or passively accept assertions of scientific fact, particularly in controversial areas, I offer as an example some sentences from the article Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, which is an FP article today.
The school board claims there are "gaps" in evolution, which it claims is a theory rather than established fact, and that students have a right to consider other views on the origins of life.
Opponents ... contend that his statement is not just ironic, but hypocritical: the Discovery Institute opposes methodological naturalism, the basic principle that limits science to natural phenomena and natural causes.
He also argued that intelligent design was not science in its infancy but rather was not science at all.
Note that the article, in achieving NPOV on a controversial science-related issue, does not make assertions of scientific (or even semantic) fact. It only reports on such assertions as a neutral party and does not pretend to have determined their validity or otherwise assume such, even when such a conclusion would seem obvious or is generally accepted.
In covering controversial topics, WP cannot assume the legitimacy or accuracy of one source over another. Such treatment is not NPOV. K. v. D gets this right. I tried to do the same here -- and without the cost of removing content.
- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 19:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assertions of scientific fact and NPOV 

message: What happened here? things have changed a lot since I last saw this article http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natasha_Demkina&oldid=13903277 I think there is a lot that could be put back. Onco_p53 23:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To find out what happened, simply read the comments above. The pared down version is less likely to cause POV-based edit wars. DreamGuy 00:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that the article has been watered down severely, based on the whims of a few people with strongly held beliefs. It now contains so little material I didn’t understand the full story until I googled and found the website. It seems remarkable that all of these external sites (compared to my previously linked version) have been removed, surely they do not add significantly to the POV of the article. Hopefully the one link that I added will remain so people can read the study for themselves, since they won't be getting the information from Wikipedia. That said I have no wish to start an edit war, so I will not further edit this article. Onco_p53 04:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure who you mean by "people with strongly held beliefs". Actually the current decimated size of the article is not really the result of either of the interested parties; it's more a matter of which philosophy of NPOVification had less resistance. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 18:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened?

message: While I was reading this talk page, I made a few comments along the way. At one point I reached the conclusion that this article did not really have a place in Wikipedia,  my argument being that nothing was submitted to peer-review in a reputable journal. It is just an event that was designed in one month or so for some TV show. I must say that I have some concerns about the final result in  because there is some pretention of scientific validity. The article should not suggest that she has failed in a well conducted test because we don't know that. In particular, I would remove the part about the agreed parameters and the part about the conclusion of the testers, not because it is false or true but because it suggests that it was a well conducted test, and we don't know that.  The article should only say that she failed the test in this TV event and mention the controversy.  At the end, there should be no assertion that this young girl has some X-ray power, but no suggestion that she failed in a well conducted scientific study either. Again, this was just a TV event and there was no publication in a reputable peer-reviewed journal. The article should make this young lady a notable person, but just because of the TV events.  Perhaps some scientists will eventually conduct a real scientific study and get it published in some reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal, and then she might become notable for something else, and every one can guess what this something else will be.  Lumiere 08:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that makes no sense. If it really happened, and its recorded, then its includable. How it is included, that is, how it is portrayed, is the remaining issue. -- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 01:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can agree with that. I did not say that there was a policy that says that we cannot report the event. Where did I say that? I do think that we should not report it because the event is not so important, but this is not because of a policy. Indeed, it is the fact that we report it as if it was a well conducted scientific study that is the problem. Lumiere 02:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nowhere in the article do we say it was a "well conducted scientific study". In fact, the article says the scientific rigour of the experiment was questioned. --DocJohnny 02:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  Your point made me step back and consider what exactly did happen in the above discussion (previous section). Please note that I was more concerned about the arguments that were proposed than about the specific actions that these arguments were trying to support. I don't care that much about this article. For me it is just an example to illustrate how the Wikipedia policies can be reasonably applied in general.  Please read my points with this in mind. I do have some specifics to say about the article. It will come soon.  Lumiere 02:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the result of this long process

message: :Hmm, the effects of what you propose would be an adoption of a false balance stance towards pseudoscience and the paranormal. Since reputable journals don't even conduct studies of these subjects, and the refutations are left in the hands of skeptics, you would have us categorically dismiss all their refutations while allowing the claims themselves? The fact remains that this person who claimed paranormal powers was tested by people with credibility dealing in these issues and was found wanting. That it was not published in a science journal is irrelevant. This is not someone making scientific claims. --DocJohnny 19:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, I will not reply, not because I agree with your evaluation of the different elements but because I am moving ahead with other cases. Thank you. Lumiere 20:21, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: See Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Any_further_comments_before_the_rewrite_goes_live.3F Lumiere 21:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The Girl came to carry out a reading under controlled  conditions as part of a scientific experiment to verify some claims that she made and the conclusion [of the testers] was that she failed to prove her claims.  
Do you agree that the article conveys this message? The expression [of the testers] is optional because it is understood that the testers followed some fixed rule to draw their conclusion. The actual conclusion in the current version of the article is that there is no need for further study, but this implies that she failed the test. The word "scientific" is justified by the overall context, in particular the fact that the designers and testers are explicitly associated with their scientific affiliations indicates that they are acting as scientists.  If you disagree, we are apparently not reading the same article. My point is that such a message requires a reputable scientific source to support it because it includes the claim that a scientific experiment was executed and its conclusion. The fact that there is not one specific sentence that by itself conveys this message is not so important. Also, the fact that there was possibly no intention to convey this message is not so important. The point is that it is the message that will be received by most readers.   Can you tell me what exactly totally mystified you in such an argument? Lumiere 05:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

text: While I applaud your civility and restraint, your argument is not based on actual policy.
##Nothing in Wikipedia:Verifiability requires that science articles only cite peer reviewed journals. In fact the only proscribed sources mentioned are blogs, personal websites, and tabloids.
##While Wikipedia:Reliable sources suggests peer reviewed journals as sources for science and medicine articles, it does not in any way prohibit citations from other sources. And it is a guideline, not policy as you mentioned above. And the section on science and medicine specifically enjoins you to seek scientific consensus. Scientific consensus is that paranormal powers do not exist. Sources from textbooks, biographies, and other books are routinely included in science articles, as long as they are verifiable.
##This was a notable person article which included a notable event (the experiment). It is not a science article. This article did not introduce some new scientific concept that had to be verified, nor was it an explanation of a current scientific concept. This was NOT a science article.
## For your argument to become logical, two things would have to change. First there would have to be a policy that scientific articles could only use peer reviewed journals as sources. Second, this would have to become an article about science, as opposed to an article about a person who claimed paranormal powers. --DocJohnny 06:02, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The conclusion 

message: The most serious problem with this kind of articles with a negative result is that they could prevent an interest in further study. We might not care in this particular case, but the principle is important. In an honest attempt to respond to my concerns, BillC actually emphasized in the article the exact point that is problematic. Lumiere 21:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the phrase "the testers concluded ..." 

message: My understanding of the scientific method of experimentation is that you have a variable, whose behaviour or characteristics are not known and which you want to study, and a control, whose behaviour is known and you provide as a reference to compare with the variable.
The subject of the experiment is the item or scenario which behaviour you do not know, i.e. the variable. The purpose of the experiment is to determine the behaviour of that variable.
Mr. Skolnick repeatedly referred to the individuals with the known medical conditions as the "subjects" of the study. Clearly this is an improper use of the term. These individuals were part of the test apparatus. Their behaviour or characteristics were not unknown variables, in fact they were quite clearly known (or presumed to be known). So they were not the subjects of the study. Demkina was the one whose behaviour they wanted to study, therefore she was the subject of the experiment.
It seems as if this misuse of terms led to an interesting way to attempt to introduce a "control" in the study, by having an extra "wildcard" choice who had none of the selected conditions. This person was referred to as "the control subject". This person was not in fact a control in the experiment; instead they were part of the test apparatus, meant to expand the scope of the test beyond mere identification of conditions but to also include identification of lack of conditions.
In my rewrite, I condensed some sentiments by saying that Demkina had fared better than a typical person would. This was based in part on an assessment in Skolnick's contributions that put the odds of Demkina's test result at 1 in 50 (or higher; the exact number eludes me). Since even odds would be 1 in 2, I figured that approaching a result that has odds of 1 in 50 is to perform above average.
Anyway, Mr. Skolnick chided me on that statement, by admitting that his team has no idea what an average person would do in the study, since they did not perform the test on another person. Therefore in fact there was no control to to the test. Instead, an artificial and apparently arbitrarily chosen bar was agreed upon. There doesn't seem to be a record of any discussion of the basis upon which that particular bar was suggested.
I guess one point being missed in our efforts at neutrality is that whether or not Demkina agreed to this artificial bar and whether or not Demkina passed that bar does not make the test conclusive, beyond that she did not pass the given bar. It does not mean that she does not have an ability beyond the average person. IMO it is valid (and not O.R.) to indicate that, or at least that others have argued such. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 22:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is a reasonable analysis. A better experimental method would have introduced both a double blind and a control, or better yet, multiple controls. If the testers themselves had been blinded to the "subjects" and their ailments, that would have been helpful. And of course, a few runs through the experiment by control subjects would have added a lot. I still think the other user's application of "scientific standards" to the reporting of this article is erroneous. If we have an article on a winner of a national science fair, we don't need him to have published in a peer reviewed journal to report the results of his experiment. This is not an article about science. This is entertainment. Now if this article were claiming a new cure for cancer, a peer reviewed source would be indicated. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claiming people do not have paranormal powers is not extraordinary. We don't need a published peer reviewed article to report that water is wet. --DocJohnny 03:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Basically, you are saying that it is obvious, and therefore it does not need a reputable scientific source.  To be consistent with yourself, you add that this entire experiment was just an entertainment [because a true valid scientific experiment was obviously not needed.]  The difficulty that I have with this argument is the long scientific discussions that many people had in the talk page. I didn't see much discussions about how entertaining was this show, and how we could have made it even more entertaining, etc.  Also, it is strange that as a result of this entertainment it was concluded that no further study was needed. If it was really presented as an entertainment with no care for scientific validity, I agree that no reputable scientific source would be needed. However, I do not buy it. Try something else.  --Lumiere 04:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The facts of the matter are obvious. You continue to ignore the facts that the statements in the article are verifiable as per policy. Not even the subject's proponents challenge the facts as stated. Your interpretation of policy would have that no article can include any content remotely connected to anything you deem "scientific" without a peer reviewed source. Your interpretation would leave wikipedia in a state of false balance with all pseudoscience and paranormal issues, since peer reviewed journals do not generally address nonsense. Since I am not trying to sell anything, and I tire of repeating myself, I will yield the floor to you. I congratulate you on promoting the cause of pseudoscience using scientific rigour as an argument.  --DocJohnny 05:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry, doc, but i quite agree with lumiere.  Also, you must realize that your being a POV warrior more then he ( or she, whatever) is.Gimmiet 06:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above user's record speaks for itself. His support should prompt some thought. --DocJohnny 13:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I went to check the users Gimmiet and DreamGuy immediatly to understand why DreamGuy took out Gimmiet's comment with no explanation whatsoever and inserted the comment below instead. No one should take out the opinion of another user in a talk page, certainly not without even discussing it. DocJohnny decided to put it back together with his last comment above just to discredit my position. This whole process is very strange. However, I appreciate the comment of Gimmiet. Lumiere 16:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You are factually wrong. I put it back, as the edit history and summary clearly show. DocJohnny simply replied later. There's no indication as to whether he even noticed it had briefly disappeared. BillC 18:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, thank you, I didn't see that, but it doesn't change much the situation as far as DreamGuy is concerned, and DocJohnny is still using guilt by association to discredit my position. Even if Gimmiet was a murderer, he could still be very clever about other aspects and his support cannot be used to discredit my position. --Lumiere 18:44, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "For the information to be acceptable to Wikipedia, you would have to persuade a reputable news organization to publish your story first, which would then go through a process similar to peer review." -Wikipedia policy
I already conceded before in this talk page that the Wikipedia policy did not discuss specifically the case of scientific content. However, clearly the idea is that the content must be checked for accuracy, etc. by some experts. How can we have this form of peer review for a scientific content if the publisher is not a scientific publisher. The editors of the journal need to know a lot about the community of researchers in the given area to contact the appropriate experts for this peer review. I agree that it will be better if the case of scientific content was discussed explicitly in the policy, but what I am saying here can be derived from the policy just with common sense.   Lumiere 19:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A comment re scientific method. 

message: "The design, methods, scientific rigour and conclusions of the experiment have subsequently been the subjects of considerable claim and counter-claim."
I do not see evidence of this is any of the references, or on the talk page. Can someone provide citations for the above? I also aruge that it needs to be attributed - CF: "The design, methods, scientific rigour and conclusions of the experiment have subsequently been the subjects of considerable claim and counter-claim by Ronald Dohrman." Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done BillC 19:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you. I took the characterization of the party making the claim from the article and included it also. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Information without citation can be removed from the article by any party. If you find uncited information, please remove it from the article and request citation here. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You are looking at a different issue than me. It is true that part of the verifiability policy is to guarantee that every content as a source. However, clearly the verifiability policy is much more than that. It is also about having a reputable source, which is adequate for the content that it supports. I could extend your approach to this more general concern, but I am not interested. My focus is on reaching a consensus on the policy itself.  Lumiere 20:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can discuss policy concerns at WP:V. Please do not do so here. Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Since we want to see how the policy apply to this article, I think it is best to do it here. If we were to follow your proposal, the verifiability talk page would get overloaded, and the context of each discussion will not be as easy to get. I only meant to say that I did not want to edit the page myself, I prefer if someone else does it, but of course I always refer to the Demkina page when I discuss here. More importantly, you avoided the main point in my comment, which is that we want more than just a source, but also a reputable source for the content of this article.Lumiere 20:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The proposed change to WP:V is best discussed there. Please stop discussing policy concerns here. If you find material that is uncited, or whose cite does not back up the statement that it is purported to, please remove the material in question and request a citation here. Thank you. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: How many times I will have to tell you that it is not about a new policy, but about the current policy! I am not discussing change to the policy. I am considering how the current policy applies to this page. You are just avoiding to discuss how the current policy applies to this page. I have seen you acting in other pages. Your approach is to do plenty of edits with little discussion, and I belive that it is not productive. Lumiere 07:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation required: 

message: Askolnick claimed at several occasions that I have a personal animosity against him. Here is my reply:
I have no animosity against you. I did not contest your Jama paper, except when you wanted to extend the conclusion to other work on TM without making clear what was the source, but I never contested your work on TM per se. If it can help, I think this paper of yours is one paper that is critical of the TM organization and appears to have some real basis behind it. I got sincerely interested in the Wikipedia policy after I got interested in the Wikpedia TM article. When I chosen the Demkina article  as an independent example to analyse the  Wikipedia policy I did not know that it was related to you. I just picked one Rfc that seemed interesting, it was in the Medecine section of the Rfc page, which is not where the TM Rfc is listed, and it was the first one that I picked-- I did not reject any other choice before it. What triggered my interest was that this Rfc started with "POV", which relates to the NPOV policy. I also did not know that the SI was involved. I don't know if it is a pure coincidence. Maybe you wrote many articles that show up in the Rfc page or maybe there is another explanation, I don't know. The only thing I know is that I did not know that you or the SI were related to the Demkina article when I picked this article in the Rfc page. You and the SI don't appear in the Demkina Rfc.  
 
Also, I have been interested in the area of scientific communication for years. So my interest in the Wikipedia policy stands by itself. I felt that we should analyze the Wikipedia policy in terms of many examples, and wanted to make sure that there is no special emphasis on any article. In exactly the same way, I think we should continue to consider other examples beyond this one. If you want to propose the TM article, fine. My point is only that the Wikipedia policy should consider uniformly all articles, and not be written or interpreted in view of a particular POV in one article. Lumiere 17:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lumiere's reply to Askolnick 

message: Please understand that the purpose of article talk pages is for discussion of the article itself. They are not intended as alternatives to internet forums in which a range of topics may be discussed. If you have an interest in scientific communication, and wish to discuss Wikipedia policy on WP:NPOV and WP:V, then this is commendable, but this article talk page is not the place for it. There are pages set aside in WP for discussion of policy, and these are the places such discussion should be taken. If you wish to discuss scientific communication in general, then there are many internet forums where you will find no shortage of people who are happy to engage you in debate on the subject. If you wish to discuss the Demkina test with the experimenters, then they can probably be contacted at their respective organisations. Demkina can probably be contacted via her website. Please do not continue to burden this article talk page with such lengthy communications, and tie up editors who would prefer to be productively contributing elsewhere on WP. If you feel that other articles beyond this one are in need of attention, then there are over 900,000 articles to consider. I for one will continue to watchlist this article and make such edits as I see fit, but I will not further engage you in debate on off-topic material on this page. Thank you. BillC 21:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus on the Demkina article 

message: The following question was added
:Why is a Nobel price in physics interested in Demkina's ability? 
The goal is to present the following statement in a more neutral way. 
:According to Phil Baty of the Times Higher Education Supplement Prof Brian Josephson has been "scorned by colleagues for his enthusiasm for the paranormal". 
 
With the help of this question, the last statement appears more just like a neutral information that is not intended to discredit Prof. Brian Josephson. The readers can conclude by themselves whether or not the enthousiast of BJ for paranormal can influence his integrity. We should not suggest anything that is POV. We should just state the facts.
:This is an encyclopedia, not a story. Tell the facts. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to guess that you are suggesting to remove the question. The problem is that the purpose of the sentence "According to Phil Baty of the Times Higher Education Supplement Prof Brian ..." will then be unclear.  I know that the sentence is true  because it only reporta what Phil Baty wrote, but truth is not the only criteria to justify inclusion in Wikipedia. The statement must also be purposeful and relevant to the article. This is mentioned in the last paragraph of the Wikipedia verifiability policy. Therefore, either we remove the sentence because it has an unclear purpose or else we rewrite it in such a way that its purpose is clear. There are two possible purposes for this sentence. The first is to mention in a neutral way the general interest of BJ for the paranormal, not just an interest for the case of Demkina. The second is to imply that the BJ statement is not reliable because he was biased by his enthousiasm. This second purpose is not acceptable because it is strongly POV. So, we either remove the sentence or else rewrite it in such a way that it is clear that its purpose is only to mention in a neutral way the general interest of BJ for the paranormal. The question was just one way to explain the purpose of the sentence, but I am open to other suggestions.  Lumiere 23:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The enthousiasm of BJ for paranormal presented with NPOV 

message: Please review the NPOV policy, DreamGuy, paying specific attention to the section titled "Giving equal validity" NPOV does not mean treating minority views with equal weight to majority views, it means attributing views to the person that holds them. Stating that the scientist is in the minority on this specific issue is in according to our NPOV policy. Hipocrite - «Talk» 03:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL. Hello, you KNOW I know NPOV policy, and specifically that section, because I was the one who originally pointed it out to you when we were both trying to improve the Otherkin article and I went into great detail on that section to the people present. But while we do not have to give equal validity to two sides, it is a clear violation of NPOV to go out of your way to try to make a side look bad. Objectivity means presenting things as they are in nuetral language and letting the readers decide, not arguing for something in the text of the article itself. Stating that a scientist is a supporter of paranormal already tells anyone reading that he is on a certain side and his claims should be treated critically. Claiming that all his colleagues think he's nuts, as you originally sad, or pointing out now that he's in the minority, is just way too much and makes you and the article look bad and biased. It's completely unnecessary and slanted. And I suggest you please review the rest of the NPOV policy so you can treat the matter in context instead of focusing just on that one section I told you about. DreamGuy 05:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To be clear, I never said that his collegues think he's nuts. I found a reliable source which I cited and quoted that said "has been scorned by colleagues for his enthusiasm for the paranormal." If anyone has ever said that his collegues don't think he's nuts, they should find a reliable source that says that. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:19, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: :Prof Brian Josephson, a controversial supporter of the  paranormal, claims that ...
This statement somehow discredit BJ as being controversial, but this controversy is only a consequence of the fact that the paranormal is not mainstream science. If the goal is to point out that the paranormal is not mainstream science, let us just say it directly. Nobody will contest that. There is no need for a personal attack against BJ. A more appropriate description will simply say 
:Prof Brian Josephson, a supporter of the  paranormal, which is a controversial area, claims that ...
Really, discrediting BJ's opinion about the paranormal in anyway whatsoever because he is interested in the paranormal is a cyclic reasoning. The starting point is that we reject the paranormal. Using that basis, we classify as controversial all those that support the paranormal. Then we discredit the opinion of BJ about the paranormal on the ground that he is controversial. It does not matter where and at which level of our community this reasoning occurs, it is a cyclic reasoning. Lumiere 18:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Prof Brian Josephson, Nobel prize winner and a supporter of careful scientific studies on the  paranormal, which is a controversial area, says that ...
--Lumiere 19:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: s'ok... methinks that answers it anyway...Gimmiet 01:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text: No, it cannot answer it. I did not want to answer you because of the provoking tone in your comment that followed the question. It had nothing to do with the question in itself... --Lumiere 02:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Brian Josephson, a Cambridge physicist who supports scientific study of the paranormal, says that ...
I think this is good, because:
*"Prof" is not needed, and I don't think it's standard style.
*Mentions that he's a Cambridge physicist. Just basic background.
*Doesn't mention that he's a Nobel Prize winner. I think that's a bit much detail. It's right at the top of his article, anyway.
*Doesn't mention "controversy", because as Lumiere did say, the paranormal is always controversial.
~~ N (t/c) 03:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not. Dr. Josephson is in the vast minority of scientists. This is a point that is cited (via the times higher ed suppliment) and relevent, but not noted. This is a failure of NPOV - specifically, "equal weight." Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You are right, but until it happens... --Lumiere 04:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  All supporters of the paranormal are controversial 

message: Some people say (see at the end of #Adding info about no peer-review) that requiering that a new scientific content must be sourced in some reputable peer reviewed scientific journal before it can be included in WP is just non sense.  I think it is clear that I disagree, and I already explained in this talk page how my position on this issue is consistent with the WP:V policy and the WP:RS guideline. 
However, my last line of arguments (see #Adding info about no peer-review) was not even about this issue, but about not censoring information instead. If we go as far as accepting a new scientific content such as a new kind of experiment without a peer-review process, we should at the least not censor this fact. --Lumiere 02:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you misunderstand what 'censorship' means in terms of Wikipedia. "Wikipedia is not censored" doesn't imply the automatic right to inclusion of any sentence, but refers instead to material that some might find offensive, such as articles on sex, or lists of swearwords. Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors. 'No censorship' cannot be used to try to evade blocks on non-encyclopaedic material or sentence usage that would not find their way into more conventional encyclopaedias. BillC 18:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I was not referring to this specific policy, but to the principle that anything that is not against the policies and is relevant can be included. So, my point is simply that I see no policy against the inclusion of the fact that the experiment was not peer reviewed, which fact is relevant. You got confused with the term "censor" and thought that I was referring to the policy against protection of minors -- it's funny -- my point has obviously nothing to do with protection of minors. --Lumiere 18:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, I was referring to the text you added to the article: Unfortunately, as far as the authors can verify, the design of this test have never been evaluated in a peer-review process., and that when questioned on it, you replied here: "Are you trying to censore these sentences on the basis that they are unprofessional in an encyclopedia?". I have no objection to noting that the article was not peer-reviewed; however it would be improper to imply that Josephson's opinion was of equal weight since his view was not refereed either: he merely posted his criticisms on his personal website. Regards, BillC 19:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  I definitively agree with the fact that BJ's opinion was not peer reviewed either. However, note that the problem originates from the fact that the experiment was not peer reviewed to begin with. Had the experiment be published in an independent reputable peer-reviewed journal, BJ would have submitted his critic to the same journal. Still, I will not oppose to anyone that wants to mention this fact. It only emphasizes that the whole thing was not peer-reviewed, which in a way supports my point.   --Lumiere 19:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  As far as "equal weight is concerned", I think that the use of the term "paranormal" does the job by itself. The principle of not equal weight is not that we must suppress the opinion of a minority, but only that the fact that it is the opinion of a minority should be clear.  In our case, there is no need to insist that the paranormal is not mainstream science. Every body know that it is not mainstream science. Adding a sentence to explain that the paranormal is not mainstream science, will make the opponent to the paramormal appear to be on the defensive.  --Lumiere 19:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, I disagree that "Everoyone knows the paranormal is not mainstream science." If the reason we are not including this well sourced, cited fact is that it's embarassing to people, then the fact needs to be included. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  My point was that it should be embarassing for the opponent of the paranormal to have to insist on it.  I think it can only improve the situation as far as the pro-paranormal are concerned.  Really, the term "paranormal" does a very good job just by itself. Trying to add anything to it, might just go the opposite direction. --Lumiere 22:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  DON'T CRY FOR ME, ARGENTINA! I'll defend those evil scientists against how terrible it makes them look when they say that paranormal is outside of the mainstream!   Hipocrite - «Talk» 00:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  I am lost in the subtle points of your last sentence. It does  not matter because whether or not the article explicitly says that the paranormal is not main stream science is not an important issue as far as I am concerned. So, let me retract whatever I said about that specific subject.  We can spend our energy on other issues. --Lumiere 00:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  What I don't retract is that we should not have any form of personal attack against BJ. Therefore, I will modify the  main page in accordance with the last proposal of the external editor N. If someone wants to add a separate sentence that says that the paranormal is not mainstream, I will not begin a discussion on this other issue. --Lumiere 14:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your information contained non-verifiable and uncited claims about Josephson. In addition, they were POV. If you can find a verifiable reliable source that says that Josephson believes what you say he believes, please reinclude that information. If your only source for the information is quotes by Josephson, please be certain to follow WP:NPOV and describe it as his claim about himself - I will include conflicting claims from others. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

text: denounces what he calls a "scientists' unethical use of media for propaganda" against unusaul phenomena that are classified as paranormal,... 
This is a quote from his article which can be used as a source. Note that we put this sentence because there seems to have a common desire to present BJ as a supporter of the paranormal. However, in accordance with NPOV, we must do that with a respect for the way the person himself will express his opinion.  You can follow this sentence with a critic that replies, but a critic that is on the topic, not a critic against the person of BJ. If you want to critic BJ, do it in an article about him. Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, your critic of BJ is just non sense: you critic his opinion because he has this opinion. It is like saying "Your viewpoint has not much value because every one knows that you are a partisan of that viewpoint". --Lumiere 18:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About peer review 

message: :Brian Josephson, a Cambridge physicist with no known record of publishing on parapsychology, and who has been scorned by colleagues for his enthusiasm for the paranormal says that the experiment was "fixed" to ensure she failed, despite the fact that the test was agreed upon by all parties beforehand.
The above use an attack on BJ to critic the logic that is presented by BJ, which can be found in the cited source. This is an ad hominen fallacious argument . This is the first kind of fallacy that any one can learn in a logic course.  The fact that the attack makes use of sourced facts does not make the argument less fallacious. Moreover, the attack itself is part of a fallacious cyclic reasoning: Hipocrite uses the fact that BJ supports [careful] scientific study on the paranormal to discredit his opinion against non careful scientific study on the paranormal.  It is the logic of the overall sentence that is completely fallacious, and the overall sentence is not attributed to someone, but appears as the opinion of WP.  
Also, I don't understand why Hypocrite switches from "paranormal" to "parapsychology" in this sentence. Is the paranormal a sub-division of parapsychology? Also, in which parapsychology journals BJ should have published? Do you mean that the problem is that BJ never published in the Skeptical Inquirer or some other journals of skeptical organizations? If not, which are these independent journals and why the Demkina experiment was not submitted to these independent journals? --Lumiere 17:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, an ad hominem is a logical fallacy. But so is using Josephson as an authoritative source with which to criticise the experiment: see Appeal to authority. It doesn't matter if he is the holder of a Nobel Prize or a swimming certificate: Josephson's personal webpage is only a reliable source for quoting Josephson, and attributing those quotes to him. This article is not about Josephson. I would be happier if it never mentioned him at all. BillC 17:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure, but we did attribute the statement to BJ with "says...", so where is the problem? I do agree that we do not want to present the view of one person, but in accordance with NPOV we must present the view of every significant minority, and NPOV says that the best way to do that is to cite a prominent adherent to that view. Are you saying that the paranormal does not even represent the view of a significant minority? --Lumiere 18:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, I am not saying that. And though I would prefer this article not to mention Josephson, and thus get bogged down in details about him, it is okay to mention him as one of the critics. It is not okay to describe him as 'a supporter of careful scientific study into the paranormal', because (a) it's only him saying that he is; (b) who defines what is 'careful' study? (c) it's a very strong implication that this test was not careful; (d) this article is not about Josephson. Josephson can be mentioned as an example of the critics of the experiment, and any quotes attributed to him should clearly be identified as such, but it should not imply that his views on the paranormal are representative of mainstream science, nor should any of the wording of this article be crafted for the purposes of establishing a case for the disreputability of Skeptical Inquirer. BillC 19:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

text: No. His connection is far deeper than that of a "physicist." My father is a physicist. Josephson is notably connected beyond his "physisicst" status. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so he's a noted physicist. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 18:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he's notably enamored with all things paranormal. He used to be a physicist. Now he's not. Are you here as an advocate for a party, or are you just being disruptivly ruleslawyery? Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Again an ad hominen argument on Brian Josephson