Talk:Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic/Archive 4

message: Per a request at WP:RfPP, I've protected this page to interupt the current edit war. Please use the talk page to discuss changes to the article and let me know once protection is no longer needed. AmiDaniel (talk) 02:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Fadix and Eupator revert the article to their POV version. They restore the reference to Georgian professor, which is false, as Adil has clearly shown in his above posting. Also Eupator removes the phrase that the settlement of the Armenians was massive, while even Griboyedov notes that ”Несоразмерность сия превышает всякое понятие” (Disproportion (of the settlement of Armenians) is beyond any comprehension).  I suggest they stop pushing for their POV version and discuss the changes on the talk page first. Grandmaster 08:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's dishonnest, I said that I was not reverting to have that Geogian guy, but revert Adil additions. As for massive, that is a relative term, there was no massive Armenian ressetlent in Nakhichevan, with the number of people living there, the Armenians would have constituted a majority had there been any such massive resettlment. Fad (ix) 17:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, see above, user Clevelander agreed to removal of the Georgian prof. quote and addition of the HETQ URL reference as well as language/wording, on which we both worked. Also, if Griboyedov's letters are not enough to show that Armenians were being settled en masse in the 19th century into Naxcivan as well as other regions of Azerbaijan, I will start invoking multiple other Russian and Western sources -- gladfully, I've got a bunch, such as census figures -- how Armenians increased by hundreds of thousands within a few decades in the Caucasus. [remove personal attack FrancisTyers · 10:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it's time to draw attention of Wiki community to what's going on at these pages, which I will definately do, unless Fadix and Eupator change their attitude. Grandmaster 10:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm shaking, learn first what NPOV is and why words such as massive or irrefutable  are not neutral, then perhaps you will understand why Adil additions were not neutral. Fad (ix) 17:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Of course I do want to be included, since at least two issues -- quote by Georgian prof. and wording of HETQ article -- were initiated by me and agreed upon in a compromise with user Clevelander. --AdilBaguirov 11:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would also like to be involved into this, I agree with AdilBaguirov and text of HETQ article should be included! Baku87 18:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  With regard to POV edits. 

message: Only on the web, can this sort of thing happen, thanks(an ironic thanks) to google. Francis, I will blame you here to not come and step. Francis, where have you seen Grandmaster ever providing ANYTHING which shows that Muslims from Nakhichevan were resettled? The only thing he provided was in relation to moving of population while Persia and Ottoman were fighting which does NOT EQUAL to resettlment as in changes of residency. He is shouting on his feet and doesn't even know it yet, Kengerli being placed as governor under Abbas actually shows that he is wrong, since the region after its Armenian population was resettled in Iran was placed under Turkic juridiction once again. And the claimed delimitation of Nakhichevan is simply a fabrication, it was only under Shah Nader in the 18th century that there was any real delimitation which still was different than those of today, Kengerli's Nakhichevan is not todays Nakhichevan.
Also, that Grandmaster include this quote reach simply sarcasm: the obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. EXACTLY MY POINT!!! That Armenians were resettled, not just moved, I have documented that, that Armenians were specifically targetted, this too I have documented. Armenians were not simply moved during wars when population movement are important in the area affected, the Armenians were then transported in Iran and transplanted there, this too I have documented while Grandmaster will always requote his same soyrce again and over again, which only shows population movement and NOT resettlement, NO 'transplantation.' So Grandmaster: the obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. Fad (ix) 17:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very tired of Armenian POV pushers too, who seem to stop at nothing. But facts are stubborn -- and they have been provided in abundance. I see that now Fadix is no more claiming that Georgians too were resettled. Good. Then let's see if in addition to all other facts presented, including by Grandmaster, we can have some more in regards to Muslims. Well, heres from Tarih-i Nadiri (History of Nadir shah), by Mirza Mehdi-khan of Astrabad, published in Moscow, 1938, Vol II, edited by Ivanov P.P.:
11 По словам Мухаммед Садыка Мервези Шах Аббас I, завоевав Мерв, поселил в нем один из каджарских родов —иззэддинлю. См. рукопись Публ. библ., V. 3; 23, л. 84а; ср. В. А. Жуковский. Развалины Старого Мерва, стр. 78, 79. Автор “Насих-ут-таварих” относит переселение племени каджаров к 995 г. х. (1586/87 г.). По приказу шаха Аббаса, каджары были переселены из Гянджи и Еривана и водворены на землях Астрабада. Те из каджар, которые поселились вверху крепости Мубарек-абад, были названы, говорит он, “юхари-баш”, а поселившиеся внизу крепости — “ашак-баш”. Другую половину каджаров шах Аббас поселил в Мерве. Этим мероприятием имелось в виду “охранить округ Астрабада и Мазандерана от набегов туркмен и оберегать земли Хорасана от беспокойств, причиняемых племенами узбеков” (“Насих-ут-таварих”, стр. 8).
The relevant sentence excerpt is: "By the order of shah Abbas, Qajars [Azerbaijani Turkic tribal confederation] were resettled from Ganja and Erivan, and put into the lands of Astrabad." Note - Astrabad is Gorgan city since 1930 name change. 
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus9/Mechdi/primtext.phtml
 
As promised, there are many more interesting references and scholarly accounts available. --AdilBaguirov 18:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: In the name of the Armenian editors here in Wikipedia, I REQUEST you to appologize for your prejudicial remark. If you have a problem with me and accuse me of POV pushing do so against me and don't use prejudicial remarks such as this, it is unacceptable. Neither Ganja nor Erivan are Nakhichevan, and Qajars were not moved from Nakhochevan and there was a purpouses in Abbas decision which could not have been applied to others. There were unrest of Lezgians, Ouzbeks and Turkmen applicable to the other regions, from which Abbas reorganized tribinal groups in respectif regions, this is how some Turkic majority were carved in some regions of present day Azerbaijan. But again, those are tribs and throwing words like 'Azerbaijani Turkic tribal confederation' won't give those tribs with limited population any grounds for your claim. You are simply searching for few words to support your position and it is evident that you lack the knowledge to process the data you accumulate, it isen't by searching like this that you will get this knowledge. Now, if you could please find relevant materials for Nakhichevan. Also, I am waiting you to appologize for your prejudicial remark. Fad (ix) 18:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I have never denied anything in regard to the Georgians, I concentrated on Armenians, because I was referring to the Armenian plateau. Fad (ix) 18:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You yourself have not provided a single reliable source on the population of Nakhichevan and the numbers of people resettled from Nakhichevan, and since you’ve been talking about “plateau”, info provided by Adil is quite relevant and shows that not only Armenians were deported from that “plateau”, but Muslims as well. And I think it’s you who should apologize first for calling other editors POV pushers. Grandmaster 19:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By taking his defense, you are simply digging a hole. I have provided various sources which mention Nakhichevan, Adil source has nothing to do with Nakhichevan, Qajars resettlement into three spot is much well documented to silence unrests of other groups(which further confirms that even small groups resettlements are documented while your claimed resettlement of the Muslim population of Nakhichevan is not), it has no connection with Nakhichevan, neither do few small tribunal groups in Erivan qualify as any evidence for Nakhichevan. And no, I don't have to provide any figures unlike what you claim, since my proposed version does not contain any figures at all, and my documentation clearly mention that a large part of the entire Armenian population from the entire region. This is really implicit, it is not about few Armenian cities or towns, but rather a resettlement of large scale. Your claimed resettlement does not exist. Also, indeed you are a POV pusher, assuming good faith, there is no way anymore. But I won't go on to say 'Azeri POV pushers.' Fad (ix) 19:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So far the sources only show that the entire population of Nakhichevan was moved to the other side of Araks. There’s no reason to think that the Armenians were the majority of population or were specifically targeted. If they were targeted, why moving the entire population, which was not Armenian? You provided sources claiming that Armenians were resettled from Armenia, Adil provided a source, showing that Muslim were resettled from the same area as well. While both your and his sources have nothing to do with Nakhichevan, it was you who started discussing resettlement of people from Erivan, instead of providing sources on Nakhichevan. Grandmaster 20:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not reading me. First, Nakhichevan is NOT the Autonomious republic, second Arakel specificaly discribes Abbas tragectory and third, now pay a careful look at this. Resettlement does not amount to population movement. War was fought there, the Ottoman and Persia were fighting, the population movement was important, both side moved population where they were fighting, the differences being that the Armenians who were moved were transplanted in Persia, onces the war was over, slowly the Muslims who moved returned, THEY WERE NOT RESETTLED, THEY WERE NOT TRANSPLANTED. After Abbas, Arakel only report Muslims left there and even on Ararat plain which was controled by the Ottoman Empire and Kars, the Armenian population dropped significantly while the Muslim population did not, and further the Muslims returned. Adil referrence is totally unrelated with Nakhichevan, Qajars were not removed the same years and their removal is totally unrelated, they were removed to shut Lezgian, Turkmen and Ouzbeks revolts and they weren't the only tribs in that regard, Abbas moved significant numbers of tribs and formed 'sedentarism' out of nomads to screw the geoethnographical situation and further secure his power. But on the Armenian plateau, the Armenians were those whom mostly were affected, and this is what I have documented and which you refuse to accept. Fad (ix) 20:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tired with POV pushers

message: Two minor corrections:
*uyezd is spelled inconsistently (two lines below)
*The second "Geography" section merely repeats some information from the first
Cheers, TewfikTalk 04:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copy editing